# haswell max safe voltage UNDER water



## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm using an i5 4690k with a kraken x61 280mm rad aio cooler. I got plenty of air flow too and good temps. 

I've been searching the Web for an answer to my question but everybody seems to have very diverse opinion on the matter. 

What is the max safe voltage for an i5 4690k with my current cooler? 

At the moment of writing this I am stable with 4.6hhz at 65c under full load prime 95 2 hours +...  My VID is 1.295v at the moment and vring is 1.235... I haven't yet started thing to lower these voltages to see if I lose the stability. 

My ambition is to reach 4.8hhz with a 1.3v-1.345 VID 

Just want to ask at which voltage does the haswell chip degrade or damage itself.. 

Now don't give me your personal opinion but the hard facts. I need to know what "is safe" not what you "think" maybe might be safe. 

I intend to run this as a daily oc. When I'm done finding my stable oc I will lower some voltages and kick in c-state and other power saving features that help the CPU to "unwin" every now and then


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## OneMoar (Nov 3, 2014)

Anything over ~1.34 is going to severely shorten the life span of the CPU safe is relative to how long you sustain the voltage you can do 1.4 in shorts bursts for benching but at that voltage you are doing serious damage even over a matter of hours

also remember you need to account for that +0.1V voltage spike under extreme loads so keep it under 1.30v MAX for 24/7 I don't recommend stability testing with prime95 other then to confirm your max voltage at 100% stress
the haswells just don't clock like the older chips 4.6 is looking like the upper limit for your proc but you won't know until you start taking voltage out of it to see how it reacts
you are already at 4.6 which is way more then you need


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## MxPhenom 216 (Nov 3, 2014)

@cadaveca will have the most reliable info for you.


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## Kursah (Nov 3, 2014)

From what my experience has led me during my research when Haswell was new is to keep it below 1.30v for 24/7... 1.35v shouldn't be crossed. I prefer to not cross 1.25v with my builds if at all possible, but I also prefer air cooling as well. Just make sure you purchased the Intel Performance Plan so if you fry your CPU overclocking, you still have warranty coverage. Even though Intel sell's K series unlocked for overclocking, you void the factory warranty when overclocking them...that's where the tuning plan comes in handy. Was fairly cheap and keeps depending on one's honestly level this may or may not be a valued purchase, ethically, for me...it was a very valid purchase. 

Dave might have a better answer, but keep it below 1.35 as stated above...and maybe be more strict and run below 1.30v as well. Depends on what you "feel" you need OC-wise...honestly...at that level, you aren't going to notice much of anything beyond stock...do some high-OC runs, bench a little...then find a nice n easy 24/7 run. I noticed NO difference between my 4770k @ 4.5, 4.3 and stock in gaming, daily use, multiple virtual machines, etc...my transcoding probably slowed a little... but again...nothing I noticed. I still like to OC... but right now i'm on a stock speed/undervolt kick. 

Good luck on your ventures.


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## cadaveca (Nov 3, 2014)

I say no matter what cooling, 1.325V. The general rule is stock + 10%. Most chips are just under 1.2V, + 10 %, gives 1.32V.

That said, if you have a retail boxed chip, you can push more if you like, just buy the Intel Tuning Plan to cover you in case of CPU damage (it's an additional warranty that also covers damage from OC). Intel has very clearly stated that 10% number, and also stated that temps don't kill, voltage/current does. So don't be too worried about temps, honestly.


Intel Tuning Plan here:

http://click.intel.com/tuningplan/


It is my "professional opinion" that Intel purposely did not give these chips good TIM so that temps would cause throttle before you could ever push into dangerous places with most traditional coolers, and those that need more, can buy the Tuning Plan and push harder (ie, those that run LN2), they kill a chip, for $25 get a replacement, and can then sell it to get another which they can then buy the plan for again)...but you cannot pop the top off of the chip and still get warranty coverage of any sort. Plain and simple, physical modifications aren't covered.


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## buildzoid (Nov 3, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> That said, if you have a retail boxed chip, you can push more if you like, just buy the Intel Tuning Plan to cover you in case of CPU damage (it's an additional warranty that also covers damage from OC). Intel has very clearly stated that 10% number, and also stated that temps don't kill, voltage/current does. So don't be too worried about temps, honestly.


Except current is exponentially proportional to temperature so a higher voltage at lower temps can be safer than a low voltage at high temps. Haswell does seem to be quite fragile from what I read so I wouldn't recommend going above 1.35V @85C° 1.4V @65C° and 1.5V at @40C°. But hey, if the tuning plan exists then intel probably doesn't believe that you will manage to kill the chip before you run out of cooling capacity. I know my 3960X is said to insta fry above 1.7V on LN2 but mine ran Cinebench R11.5 at 1.725V and I still have it.


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## GhostRyder (Nov 3, 2014)

Well everyone already beat me to the punch on this one, you just should not push it beyond 4.6ghz for 24/7 at this point because you might degrade the chip especially if you want to keep it for more than a year or so.  At 4.5ghz you already will be maxing every game out (By that I mean the CPU will not be even close to the bottleneck) on the CPU side of things so I would not worry beyond that point and just keep that chip running like it is since you already have a good setting that is below 1.3.

Cadaveca and Onemoar already put the max safety range on those chips and right now your below it.


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

Intel tuning plan FTW. That said, Im sure most everybody, even here, eclipses that "10%" value over stock, especially under water. My personal preference with this generation of CPU is 1.35 -1.4v or less for 24/7 operations. You will need another CPU before 1.4v under water will kill it.



> Anything over ~1.34 is going to severely shorten the life span of the CPU safe is relative to how long you sustain the voltage you can do 1.4 in shorts bursts for benching but at that voltage you are doing serious damage even over a matter of hours


Disagree 100%.
The Haswells on the review rig (4770K and now 4790K) ALL saw nearly 1.5v for my 4.9GHz testing and it hasn't degraded. The 4770K was under LN2 3x at 1.8v. I would also bench at slightly over 1.5v... several times...no degradation. 

You can stick with the 'company line' at 10%, but experience on this forum and many others shows more (within reason) isn't harmful. 1.4v is the absolute highest I would go and expect the CPU to last a good 3-4 years if not more.


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## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

Ok so here's the OC I got right now:

4.6ghz stable @:

- VID = 1.308v (dropped from 1.325v)
- vRing = 1.216v (dropped from 1.285v)
- VCCIN = 1.830v (dropped from 2.15v)

I've read in many places that with a VID voltage that high (1.308v) its usually better not to stress test with prime 95... but I still usually prefer prime 95 to other stressing methods because I get to find the instability "faster" if there is one. I monitor my temps closely all the time. With small FFTs this OC doesn't reach over 68c ever no matter what (under load from small ffts for 2hrs)


so yes @OneMoar is correct that I have an OC that is better than what I actually need. It is true indeed that I could probably manage a 4.4ghz OC (with individual core ratios, I might even manage to find my weak core(s) and set some to reach 4.6 anyhow) with a lower voltage. So at the moment of writing this, my plan is to have 2 different OverClocks, one for the winter and one for the summer. I'll probably use the 4.6ghz during the winter because I don't mind 1.308v with the temps I'm having. I do believe I'll be able to do 5+years with this chip with that OC (especially considering I'm using C1E, EIST, C-State C7s and speedstep) which will throttle my Clocks and Volts down when not in need of them. My summer OC will probably be a reasonnable 1.245v ish VID OC with 4.4ghz+

Oh and 2 more questions (I've searched google and couldn't find an answer to those):


What on earth is the "C7s" C-State? (I know about all the others, all the way up to C6, but what's "C7" and "C7s" ???)
I don't intend to use it, but I noticed my TurboBoost feature is now "greyed out" in the Bios. What's the setting I touched that does that? (I got my CPU ratio mode from "fixed" to "dynamic" thought I'd see it re-enabled when I did that ... but no) it's no biggie, because I'm not interested in TurboBoost but rather more interested with "EIST" which throttles my clocks and Voltage down (or EIST + speedstep)


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## OneMoar (Nov 3, 2014)

leave the Cstates on AUTO or disable them whatever you do don't force enable them bad things happen I did that and my vcore was spiking to 1.5V due to the combination of LCC and fixed voltages 
C7 is the lowest power state with the power draw from the cpu being less then 0.5A its for when the machine is at a dead idle
should't impact stability so if its on "auto" and "enabled" leave it


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

Also, VID = stock voltage. It does not mean Vcore nor is it interchangeable really. You CPU has ONE VID (its stock voltage under load), the rest is termed Vcore or core voltage or just not VID.


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## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> Also, VID = stock voltage. It does not mean Vcore nor is it interchangeable really. You CPU has ONE VID (its stock voltage under load), the rest is termed Vcore or core voltage or just not VID.



I thought VID was the "voltage set by user in the bios" and that Vcore was the "actual voltage" that the CPU receives including all the offsets and variants...

and I guess proof of what I'm saying:

Looking at Hwinfo64 right now and my VID shows 1.294v (which is DEfinitly not the "stock" voltage, or "default" voltage... the default is 1.2v for this haswell chip)...

unless by "stock voltage" you meant the voltage I myself set in the bios...

I guess the confusion comes from the fact that the bios does indeed call this "vcore" voltage or "core voltage" when all the sensors out there actually call the total voltage applied to the CPU "Vcore"

or I'm completly off. If so, I was because of this haswell guide:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1411077/haswell-overclocking-guide-with-statistics

and I quote: "
*CPU VID vs Vcore*
There is a difference between CPU VID and CPU Vcore when I mention both of them together. I repeat: Only when I am talking about VID and Vcore in the same sentence does my definition of Vcore change.

Normally when I say Vcore I mean what you think I mean. But when I mention VID vs Vcore, VID is the amount of core voltage you set in the BIOS yourself. You should know it, you're the one that set the voltage in there. The Vcore is the number measured by Hwinfo or HWmonitor on your CPU when it is under max load.

What does this mean? Your Vcore could be above your VID. If you set 1.3v in the BIOS that's 1.3v VID. If you are also under adaptive voltage and you're running Prime95, your Vcore could be a whopping 1.5v, way above your set 1.3v. 

Finally please note, there are multiple reports of people having a higher Vcore than VID even under non-synthetic loads but the extra voltage is relatively small. Just be careful and monitor voltages closely. As your VID increases the extra voltage drawn in from a regular non-synthetic load increases."


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

VID = stock voltage of that particular CPU. What that is after vdrop/vdroop is not 'counted'. VID is the stock voltage though. Anything outside of that is just voltage. Vcore, core voltage, whatever you want to call it... just not VID as that explicitly means the stock voltage.

(sorry pet peeve of mine - I even started a thread at my home website that asks when did VID suddenly become vcore? LOL!)

EDIT: Thanks for the quote?? Anyway here is another...



> *VID (Voltage Identification)
> 
> The VID of your CPU is the default vcore your CPU needs in order to run at stock to run Intel’s standards for stability *on any non-faulty motherboard. Some people have found that they can undervolt below their VID to still run at Stock speeds without failing stability tests. However, I highly discourage this on practice on low-end motherboards for reasons I will explain soon.
> 
> In my overclocking experience, I have found that using a medium to high-end motherboard has allowed me to overclock using the VID vcore for several hundred mhz’s. This is because these motherboards generally do not have bad vdroop or vdrop (defined below). The CPU’s VID is designed to be what is required so that when a low-end motherboard shows its severe vdroop/vdrop that the CPU will still run 100% stable.


http://www.overclock.net/t/665362/vid-voltage-identification-explained

And a wiki........




> *Voltage identification*





> *The correct supply voltage is communicated by the microprocessor to the VRM at startup via a number of bits called VID (voltage identification). *In particular, the VRM initially provides a standard supply voltage to the VID logic, which is the part of the processor whose only aim is to then send the VID to the VRM. When the VRM has received the VID identifying the required supply voltage, it starts acting as a voltage regulator, providing the required constant voltage supply to the processor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator_module


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## fullinfusion (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm with @cadaveca on this one. 1.325 volts for 24/7 and cooling don't mean shit even at 1.35+ volts... The DC chip does not like higher then Dave's said voltage. I'd know, I have a killer water system and I have zero issues with heat, the heat don't kill these chips as much as the voltage does.


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

That is pretty conservative... but to each their own.


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## fullinfusion (Nov 3, 2014)

I could argue my findings but your a big boy and can figure it out. And yes to each there own.. I trust one guy in here as he does actually know his stuff 

But hey 1.40v's have at it..
My point is something like this..., Some can't afford buying CPUs all the time and others have Mommy's to fork out the dough every time they go pop. In wish I had a mommy or sugga momma to buy my hardware. 

But safe is low voltage.. And 1.325 is conservative but whatever its all good and to each their own.. When someone says 1.40v I wouldn't want that person wagging there finger at me saying " but you said its safe"

To many ppl giving advice... And Not enough ppl weed through the bs for fact.

But that's what freedom of speech is all about


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

> But safe is low voltage.. And 1.325 is conservative but whatever its all good and to each their own..


That is all I am saying. The more voltage you use, the more risk there is of it to go POP... I agree. But in my experiences (almost a dozen haswells), and the experiences I have seen here, OCF, OCN, and other places, one can go more and still have it live out its useful life.

Hell, we can get yelled at if we say 1.3v and it goes POP too... 

EDIT: To add to this a bit... its only the latest version of P95 (28.5?) that gives those slight (never EVER saw .1v) voltage bumps when testing out the AVX instruction set iteration(s). But 28.5 does run around 10C+ warmer than the previous versions of P95 so be careful there both temperature wise and pay attention to any voltage increases just in case.


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## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

So I finished my "WINTER " OC with a 4.6ghz on all cores except for core one which manages 4.7ghz without changing any of the voltage settings. 

I'm now working on my summer OC. Trying to get 4.4ghz with the lowest voltages possible. Then I'll try and see if some of my cores can do 4.5 or 4.6 without changing the voltage. 

Temps for this OC do not ever exceed 60c with small ffts prime 95.


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## cadaveca (Nov 3, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> That is all I am saying. The more voltage you use, the more risk there is of it to go POP... I agree. But in my experiences (almost a dozen haswells), and the experiences I have seen here, OCF, OCN, and other places, one can go more and still have it live out its useful life.
> 
> Hell, we can get yelled at if we say 1.3v and it goes POP too...
> 
> EDIT: To add to this a bit... its only the latest version of P95 (28.5?) that gives those slight (never EVER saw .1v) voltage bumps when testing out the AVX instruction set iteration(s). But 28.5 does run around 10C+ warmer than the previous versions of P95 so be careful there both temperature wise and pay attention to any voltage increases just in case.


The point I made was to a user that isn't well versed in OC'ing. You are reviewer, versed in LN2. Your recommendations to a novice are pointless, IMHO. I play "BY THE RULES" on purpose with such users, and when stuff goes wrong, then the answer is "blame Intel". Yeah, it's playing safe... because not everyone has cash to drop on replacement parts.


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

I am versed in LN2 but am really having a hard time figuring out what relevance that has in this context...and you are a reviewer to, so now I am really confused. I would think that, being well versed in LN2 and pushing more CPUs harder than most people (on air/water/LN2) that I would perhaps have MORE insight than others that don't... but I digress...

Anyhoo, the voltage I mentioned, 1.35-1.4v, is clearly not sub ambient territory. Its just a bit above Intel's 'I want to save my ass as a company' recommendation which, like PSU ratings are always over conservative. I have used WAY more than 1.325v across nearly a dozen chips and no degradation. So have hundreds and hundreds of others at OCN/OCF/XS/KPC...

Again, to each their own, but IMNSHO, you don't even need to have a sack to run 1.35v 24/7 through Haswell. Intel is just extreme pussies wanting to save their bottom line more than that is a "zOMG don't go past 1.32v or your chip will die!!!!!!".


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## OneMoar (Nov 3, 2014)

@EarthDog
voltage for a system: benching and setting records is one thing
voltage for a system: that`s going to be used daily is another `thing
voltage for a system: that is going to be used daily by a person that is well versed on overclocking is a completely different ballgame. you know enough to watch for the early symptoms of a "problem in progress" you also can replace a proc at the drop of a hat the OP can't ...
@op keep it below 1.30V if you feel the need for speed get the intel tuning protection plan and go untill it blows ... .nuff-said on the subject


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## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

Lol I knew starting this thread would probably bring about some interesting debates lol. Anyhow, I'm still here and would still appreciate your input on my last few posts. 

Also, I'd like to mention that I ain't using a cheap watercooler or air cooler. I'm using a x61 kraken with a 280mm rad and although I am definitely not a reviewer or an expert, I've got enough experience with overclocking to know that past a certain point in temperatures it's just suicide to continue overclocking. My question was more about to effect of vcore voltage on my chip regarding the long term aspect and I wanted some feedback from you guys to see if you thought my voltage settings and my achieved OCs are good. 

In fact, I worked real hard to achieve the overclocks I reached. Care to rejoice a bit with me? It was hard work (especially since I'm not a pro yet) 

Update: I managed a summer OC at 4.4ghz with default vring and default vccin along with a super low 1.205v vcore voltage hehe. Temps with small ffts reaching a max of 57c now. 

Next step, see if my cores can go further with these voltage settings


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## EarthDog (Nov 3, 2014)

OneMoar said:


> @EarthDog
> voltage for a system: benching and setting records is one thing
> voltage for a system: that`s going to be used daily is another `thing
> voltage for a system: that is going to be used daily by a person that is well versed on overclocking is a completely different ballgame. you know enough to watch for the early symptoms of a "problem in progress" you also can replace a proc at the drop of a hat the OP can't ...
> @op keep it below 1.30V if you feel the need for speed get the intel tuning protection plan and go untill it blows ... .nuff-said on the subject


You (both) act like I have no idea the difference between benching and a daily overclock. FFS I even distinguished the two in nearly all my posts in this thread... All I am saying, again, is that the Intel spec is, to me, quite conservative. Can I replace a CPU at the drop of a hat or am I in the same exact boat that the OP is in and really don't want to afford losing a chip? Its the latter. Unlike TPU, I don't get paid to do reviews so if I blow a CPU, I need to go buy one just like everyone else does. 


Anyway @ jonathan... congrats on the OC. The different core speeds is pecuilar to me, but that is also a choice and not a requirement... As dave said here quite well voltage will kill things even with temperatures in order. Clearly there are differing opinions on where one should stop. If you are good with where you are at (and as someone else said, you can kill everything you throw at it with your clocks) there is no reason to push further. All I am saying is that Intel's specs are hella conservative, so shows the hundreds of overclockers that go past that on their DAILY rigs as well.


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## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

Yup. I'll probably get the Intel plan just in case because yes, even though it's very likely that I don't need as high as 4.6ghz +

My way of looking at this is that I actually "paid"  or a "k" series chip and I want the full benefits I also just loooove learning more about PC hardware and trying to push the chip further  has tougth me hints I never knew about voltages, bios options and what not. 

I'm very happy with my chip and Temps. I got 2 decent overclocks i can use whenever.


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## jonathan1107 (Nov 3, 2014)

What's the difference between  Intel turbo. Boost and enhanced turbo?


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## cadaveca (Nov 4, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> You (both) act like I have no idea the difference between benching and a daily overclock. FFS I even distinguished the two in nearly all my posts in this thread... All I am saying, again, is that the Intel spec is, to me, quite conservative. Can I replace a CPU at the drop of a hat or am I in the same exact boat that the OP is in and really don't want to afford losing a chip? Its the latter. Unlike TPU, I don't get paid to do reviews so if I blow a CPU, I need to go buy one just like everyone else does.
> 
> 
> Anyway @ jonathan... congrats on the OC. The different core speeds is pecuilar to me, but that is also a choice and not a requirement... As dave said here quite well voltage will kill things even with temperatures in order. Clearly there are differing opinions on where one should stop. If you are good with where you are at (and as someone else said, you can kill everything you throw at it with your clocks) there is no reason to push further. All I am saying is that Intel's specs are hella conservative, so shows the hundreds of overclockers that go past that on their DAILY rigs as well.


Nah, it's just on most standard coolers, anything above 1.325 V is going to lead to temps that cause throttle. You're reading too much into it. I also consider the point where you have to greatly boost vCore vs the last increment(multi), as the point where things get a bit dicey. This is around 1.325V with the CPUs I have had (around 50 including the V2 Devil's Canyon). I mean, people are complaining about low-clocking Haswell for a reason... they get hot pretty quickly. That's why I qualified my intial statement with "my professional opinion" and the TIM story.


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## EarthDog (Nov 4, 2014)

Sorry, the op has good temps and my posts were assuming adequete cooling for the voltage. 

When you step outside that box and NOW try to qualify the reasoning with 'well that tends to be the tipping point anyway so it really doesn't matter' it makes a bit more sense. 

I guess I couldn't read between the veiled lines you now clearly mention.


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## electronerd224 (Jan 18, 2021)

Hello Stumbled upon this noticed some people had mentioned Voltage Regulators. Anyway I was looking to see if anyone had a quick explanation for how they work? Found this voltage regulator explanation but its a little to in depth, have a little trouble understanding. Can anyone help me out?


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## nxindy (Dec 23, 2022)

I know this is an old post. Just seeing if there are opinions. I use a Formula mobo w/water-cooled VRM, Poseiden GPUs on a 360 custom loop and a delidded 4790 liquid metal TIM on it's own 240 AIO. I do not have any temp issues what-so-ever. I can easily do 5ghz at 1.5v. It will benchmark 4.9 at 1.42v. I daily drive at 4.8 and 1.395. Am I destroying my awesome processor and how would I know? I've been doing this for several years. When benchmarking OCs I rarely reach 80c. I can even reach 5.1 but don't leave it there.


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## Good Guru (Jan 4, 2023)

My 4770k degraded almost overnight at 1.432 actual vcore. It would'nt do 4.7 4.6 or 4.5 at the same voltages as before, when I kept it below 1.4 mostly.
Is 1.395 your manual voltage or the actual vcore? I ask this because sometimes motherboards overvolt the cpu a little more than the user inputs so I call this the actual Vcore.
I use my 4790k at 1.25/4.6 1.3/4.7 1.362/4.8 vcore or same 1.22/1.27/1.33 in bios for manual voltage.


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## ruff0r (Jan 4, 2023)

jonathan1107 said:


> I'm using an i5 4690k with a kraken x61 280mm rad aio cooler. I got plenty of air flow too and good temps.
> 
> I've been searching the Web for an answer to my question but everybody seems to have very diverse opinion on the matter.
> 
> ...


1.35V-1.4V.
You will MAYBE do 4,8ghz all my chips i could test all ended about 4.7-4.75ghz. (4690k-4790k´s)
Aim for 4.7ghz with the lowest Vcore.


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## Tropick (Jan 4, 2023)

Good Guru said:


> My 4770k degraded almost overnight at 1.432 actual vcore. It would'nt do 4.7 4.6 or 4.5 at the same voltages as before, when I kept it below 1.4 mostly.
> Is 1.395 your manual voltage or the actual vcore? I ask this because sometimes motherboards overvolt the cpu a little more than the user inputs so I call this the actual Vcore.
> I use my 4790k at 1.25/4.6 1.3/4.7 1.362/4.8 vcore or same 1.22/1.27/1.33 in bios for manual voltage.


Can unfortunately confirm this, back in the day I was able to get a "stable" 4.8GHz @ 1.42 for roughly 4 or 5 weeks before I started getting crashes when load was applied. Afterwards needed 1.3v just to keep the poor thing stable at 4.6GHz. Felt so, so stupid that I gave up manually overclocking CPUs. Used to run my 5600X with a PBO offset and that was it. Now I have a 5800X3D and I love it because AMD doesn't even give me a chance to screw it up.


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## kiriakost (Jan 4, 2023)

I did battle with my self a year ago, if 4770k this worth more than a locked i7 4770.
My findings, even if you push the 4790K at the outer space, it can only give 6 frames on top versus the locked i7 4770.

Conclusion:  Haswell came out powerful out of the box, tweaks does not required and does not help either.
Locked i7 4770 has a bonus, you can operate quality 2400 DDR3 as default setting.


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