# NVIDIA's Next-Generation "Ampere" GPUs Could Have 18 TeraFLOPs of Compute Performance



## AleksandarK (Feb 3, 2020)

NVIDIA will soon launch its next-generation lineup of graphics cards based on a new and improved "Ampere" architecture. With the first Tesla server cards that are a part of the Ampere lineup going inside Indiana University Big Red 200 supercomputer, we now have some potential specifications and information about its compute performance. Thanks to the Twitter user dylan552p(@dylan522p), who did some math about the potential compute performance of the Ampere GPUs based on NextPlatform's report, we discovered that Ampere is potentially going to feature up to 18 TeraFLOPs of FP64 compute performance.

With Big Red 200 supercomputer being based on Cray's Shasta supercomputer building block, it is being deployed in two phases. The first phase is the deployment of 672 dual-socket nodes powered by AMD's EPYC 7742 "Rome" processors. These CPUs provide 3.15 PetaFLOPs of combined FP64 performance. With a total of 8 PetaFLOPs planned to be achieved by the Big Red 200, that leaves just a bit under 5 PetaFLOPs to be had using GPU+CPU enabled system. Considering the configuration of a node that contains one next-generation AMD "Milan" 64 core CPU, and four of NVIDIA's "Ampere" GPUs alongside it. If we take for a fact that Milan boosts FP64 performance by 25% compared to Rome, then the math shows that the 256 GPUs that will be delivered in the second phase of Big Red 200 deployment will feature up to 18 TeraFLOPs of FP64 compute performance. Even if "Milan" doubles the FP64 compute power of "Rome", there will be around 17.6 TeraFLOPs of FP64 performance for the GPU.




 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

With NV I'm not worried about the performance but mostly about the price. I only hope AMD delivers as well or otherwise we will have these cards for crapload of money. That would be a disaster.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 3, 2020)

Final Fantasy X Summoning!!! Ultima Bahamut with Yojimbo RTX cores!!!!  

I have a feeling these rumors are true, mainly cause they are afraid of Big Navi. 

Glorious time for gamers! Rejoice brothers! Glory is here!


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> Final Fantasy X Summoning!!! Ultima Bahamut with Yojimbo RTX cores!!!!
> 
> I have a feeling these rumors are true, mainly cause they are afraid of Big Navi.
> 
> Glorious time for gamers! Rejoice brothers! Glory is here!


Hope you are not mistaken. I like your charisma bro. I really hope the big navi will give some sort of stimulus to NV's RTX cards.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> I have a feeling these rumors are true, mainly cause they are afraid of Big Navi.


Just like they have been afraid of everything amd has done for five years that ultimately allowed them to sell their xx106 dies at $500


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## Chomiq (Feb 3, 2020)

One thing's for sure, they'll cost more. At least in high end, since that's where AMD struggles to compete with Nvidia.


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## Anymal (Feb 3, 2020)

Chomiq said:


> One thing's for sure, they'll cost more. At least in high end, since that's where AMD struggles to compete with Nvidia.


Turing will be discounted though. 2070super for 350eur, njami!


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## T1beriu (Feb 3, 2020)

AleksandarK , please ask your editor to stop you from taking napkin math and turning it into news.


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## dj-electric (Feb 3, 2020)

This new architecture might be incredibly fast, but i can't even begin to imagine the pricing on products...


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

Chomiq said:


> One thing's for sure, they'll cost more. At least in high end, since that's where AMD struggles to compete with Nvidia.


Yup.expect reasonably priced 9-10 tflop cards and big premiums on faster ones.
I dont think were getting 2080ti performance cheaper than $699


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## ppn (Feb 3, 2020)

They need at least 8192 Cuda at 2.1Ghz 1:2 FP64 to do 17.2 Tflops and if we look at NAvi 7nm is only 60% denser that 12nm. So it is similarly sized as Volta but 2.6 faster.


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## Hyderz (Feb 3, 2020)

i dont think nvidia is going to change the price on their top tier cards. 
Lets say big navi comes out and the performance of it is better than the rtx 2080ti.
Nvidia will drop the price of the 2080ti to match the big navi price 
then when the ampere card launches later on, nvidia will jack up the top tier card back to $999 saying its faster to justify the cost


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

Hyderz said:


> i dont think nvidia is going to change the price on their top tier cards.
> Lets say big navi comes out and the performance of it is better than the rtx 2080ti.
> Nvidia will drop the price of the 2080ti to match the big navi price
> then when the ampere card launches later on, nvidia will jack up the top tier card back to $999 saying its faster to justify the cost


There will be no big navi.
They cant even get the small navi to work properly.
Ampere will compete with turing and next gen consoles (and their desktop equivalents).


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## ppn (Feb 3, 2020)

EUV will be limited to 429 mm2. AMD card will draw twice the power. So that 429mm2 draws 429 watts, and in case of nvidia 215 watts for the same performance. So there you have it.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 3, 2020)

I have my doubts, if they maintain the 1:2 ratio it would take a chip close to the current 16nm reticle limit running in excess of 2.1 Ghz to achieve anywhere close to 18 TFLOPS. Not only that it would be incredibly expensive and probably have abysmal yields but the power will be insane. I just don't can't see them clocking a Tesla part that high, it's not feasible.

1:1 ratio is an option but it would come with massive die space cost which again, I don't see them doing it.

Something else is going on.


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## _Flare (Feb 3, 2020)

I think a doubling of the TPC in every GPC is likely, going from Turings 6 in the "big GPC" to 12. (Turing small GPC are 4 TPC)
So every "big GPC" will grow to 1536 Cores, so with 6 GPC we reach 9216 Cores.
At 1.9 GHz we reach 17.51 TFlops FP64.

Nvidia did the big(6 TPC) and small (4 TPC) GPC experiment the first time with Turing, i bet that was for a reason.
Turing was also the first time that a non-top-tier chip like the RTX 2080 got 6 GPC when the top-tier has also 6 GPC.
Going over 6 GPC would likely drive the chip complexity without any significant gains, but putting more horsepower in every GPC makes sense.
Maybe Ampere brings even more variance in TPC count per GPC.
12 TPC = 1536 Cores
10 TPC = 1280
_8 TPC = 1024
_6 TPC = _768

at 6 GPC that would bring 9216 or 7680 or 6144 or 4608 Cores (TU102)


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> There will be no big navi.
> They cant even get the small navi to work properly.
> Ampere will compete with turing and next gen consoles (and their desktop equivalents).


I'm sure about High-end NAVI (RDNA) not coming but RDNA2 will hit the market this year. Lisa Su has already confirmed that the RDNA2 high-end graphics release in 2020 and CES will have a keynote about it and this will also have Ray tracing support. If this RDNA2 will compete with NV graphics is unknown but also we don't know much about new NV release. I read that the high-end RDNA2 will flood markets with outstanding 4k performance. If that is going to happen only time will tell.


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## AnarchoPrimitiv (Feb 3, 2020)

T1beriu said:


> AleksandarK , please ask your editor to stop you from taking napkin math and turning it into news.



Agreed


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

ratirt said:


> I read that the high-end RDNA2 will flood markets with outstanding 4k performance. If that is going to happen only time will tell.


Outstanding,flood - where did you get that?
Nvidia calls anything tu104 based their high end and AMD seems happy to follow so there is no useful information in what you cited.


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> Outstanding,flood - where did you get that?
> Nvidia calls anything tu104 based their high end and AMD seems happy to follow so there is no useful information in what you cited.











						AMD might detail new RDNA2 graphics card on March 5
					

On Financial Analysts Day AMD would share the first details about the new graphics cards that AMD has in the works. According to Mithun Chandrasekhar, the man behind Radeon product management, 'Big N...




					www.guru3d.com
				



flood the market meaning disrupting the GPU market.
As you read, "change the 4k gaming as ryzen did for CPUs", in my words outstanding. What other conclusion would you have in mind?
It's just how I get it. Will it be true? How could you or I tell?


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

ratirt said:


> flood the market meaning disrupting the GPU market.
> As you read, "change the 4k gaming as ryzen did for CPUs", in my words outstanding. What other conclusion would you have in mind?
> It's just how I get it. Will it be true? How could you or I tell?


What is this gibberish?
Is there a card coming or not? How does it perform?


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> What is this gibberish?
> Is there a card coming or not? How does it perform?


Is there a card coming? Yes
How will it perform? Hasn't been revealed yet. CES 2020 hold your horses.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Is there a card coming? Yes
> How will it perform? Hasn't been revealed yet. CES 2020 hold your horses.


When is the card coming ? Q1 or Q4?


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> When is the card coming ? Q1 or Q4?


latest info says it will be out 2020. Which quarter? nobody knows.


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## Super XP (Feb 3, 2020)

Anymal said:


> Turing will be discounted though. 2070super for 350eur, njami!


Still overpriced lol

A cute little Cardinal birdie told me that Nvidia will not release Ampere until AMD releases RDNA2. And another cute little birdie,  this time the birdie was a Blue Jay told me AMD won't release RDNA2 until Nvidia releases Ampere. 

Which cute little birdie will you believe?



cucker tarlson said:


> When is the card coming ? Q1 or Q4?


Q1 Launch Ampere Server GPUs.
Q2 Release Ampere Server GPUs & Launch Ampere Desktop GPUs.
Q3-Q4 Release Ampere Desktop GPUs.
Or listen to the birdies.


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## jabbadap (Feb 3, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> Final Fantasy X Summoning!!! Ultima Bahamut with Yojimbo RTX cores!!!!
> 
> I have a feeling these rumors are true, mainly cause they are afraid of Big Navi.
> 
> Glorious time for gamers! Rejoice brothers! Glory is here!



Nah big navi does not compete with this. It's Vega based Arcturus.


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## Legacy-ZA (Feb 3, 2020)

And it can be yours for a mere $10 000, pre-order now.


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

jabbadap said:


> Nah big navi does not compete with this. It's Vega based Arcturus.



At least there's someone else who understands this.

Volta is really quite different than the Turing cores.

Vega V20 fights directly with Volta and provides some a lot of competition.

Navi is the compute crippled GeForce/Quadro fighter.

This is the big reason that the APUs use Vega based GFX because for office stuff OpenCL performance is king. V20 also has the same degenerated rendering hardware as Navi. So it can do GFX like Navi but crushes it in compute tasks.

A simple comparison...

Xbox One/S and the PS4 variants use Polaris GPUs and they are in the Fury/Navi line.

The Xbox One X uses a GPU based off of the 290X/Vega branch.

Radeon VII isn't much faster in gaming than a 5700XT, but it's 5.5 times faster in compute. The 5700XT has basically the same compute performance as a 2080Ti.

Edit: I really hope Arcturus brings it, because the sooner CUDA dies out the better. Locking so much important research to a closed system isn't good. OpenCL ftw!


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Radeon VII isn't much faster in gaming than a 5700XT, but it's 7 times faster in compute. The 5700XT has basically the same compute performance as a 2080Ti.


Radeon 7=7x 2080Ti
makes sense
at least there's someone else who understands this.


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> 7 times?



Sorry 6ish times...

Radeon 5700XT
FP64 (double) performance
609.6 GFLOPS (1:16)

Radeon VII
FP64 (double) performance
3.360 TFLOPS (1:4)

GeForce 2080Ti
FP64 (double) performance
420.2 GFLOPS (1:32)

Quadro RTX 5000 PC Jesus Edition
FP64 (double) performance
348.5 GFLOPS (1:32)

8x 2080ti
5.5x 5700XT 
9.6x RTX 5000

Big boy cards what Ampere is actually fighting... Volta and V20

Instinct MI60
FP64 (double) performance
7.373 TFLOPS (1:2)

Quadro GV100
FP64 (double) performance
7.066 TFLOPS (1:2)

Quadro GV100S
FP64 (double) performance
8.177 TFLOPS (1:2)


Corrected


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## MxPhenom 216 (Feb 3, 2020)

dj-electric said:


> This new architecture might be incredibly fast, but i can't even begin to imagine the pricing on products...



Rumors are pricing will stay the same as Turing. Could be less due to 7nm silicon cost savings.


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## efikkan (Feb 3, 2020)

My advice is to consume these rumors with generous amounts of NaCl.



ratirt said:


> I'm sure about High-end NAVI (RDNA) not coming but RDNA2 will hit the market this year. Lisa Su has already confirmed that the RDNA2 high-end graphics release in 2020 and CES will have a keynote about it and this will also have Ray tracing support. If this RDNA2 will compete with NV graphics is unknown but also we don't know much about new NV release.


Lisa Su also said that the high-end was important to them, funny considering AMD haven't been participating there for years. It makes me wonder what _she_ means by "big Navi" and "high-end", it could simply mean anything bigger and better than RX 5700 XT.



ratirt said:


> I read that the high-end RDNA2 will flood markets with outstanding 4k performance. If that is going to happen only time will tell.


Outstanding 4K performance by most people's standard would mean performance way beyond RTX 2080 Ti, but in marketing terms it could easily mean something comparable to RTX 2080/2080 Super at a lower price than current pricing.

I haven't seen any AMD cards "flood the market" in the mid-range or high-end since the 200/300 series. Even "big hits" like RX 480/580 were outsold 8-10x by GTX 1060, etc.


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## Steevo (Feb 3, 2020)

ppn said:


> EUV will be limited to 429 mm2. AMD card will draw twice the power. So that 429mm2 draws 429 watts, and in case of nvidia 215 watts for the same performance. So there you have it.




I'm not sure what I just read. But damn, is it wrong.


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## Super XP (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> Radeon 7=7x 2080Ti
> makes sense
> at least there's someone else who understands this.


I can't see 7x over the RX 5700XT. 
Also a side note, in "Double-Precision Workloads" the Radeon VII is the fastest GPU on the planet.


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

Super XP said:


> I can't see 7x over the RX 5700XT.
> Also a side note, in "Double-Precision Workloads" the Radeon VII is the fastest GPU on the planet.



I corrected it.

5.5x faster than the 5700XT
8x faster than the 2080ti

Turing isn't in the same game as Volta. Ampere will continue the tradition of being beastly compute oriented.


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## Super XP (Feb 3, 2020)

ppn said:


> EUV will be limited to 429 mm2. AMD card will draw twice the power. So that 429mm2 draws 429 watts, and in case of nvidia 215 watts for the same performance. So there you have it.


That's nonsense,  double the power draw?  Lol it's interesting how people get RDNA 1 and RDNA 2 confused, then come to a conclusion based on no design enhancements and just doubling the power draw based on today's Navi.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

Super XP said:


> Also a side note, in "Double-Precision Workloads" the Radeon VII is the fastest GPU on the planet.


not even close


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

efikkan said:


> My advice is to consume these rumors with generous amounts of NaCl.
> 
> 
> Lisa Su also said that the high-end was important to them, funny considering AMD haven't been participating there for years. It makes me wonder what _she_ means by "big Navi" and "high-end", it could simply mean anything bigger and better than RX 5700 XT.
> ...


It could mean that. bigger than 5700XT. It could mean something else time will tell.

Outstanding is what I get from the article and what's been said. If you think it will be better than 2080Ti it's fine with me. I'm not going to make this assumption.
I will leave it as outstanding. When somebody compares Ryzen launch to what the new RDNA2 will brings, outstanding is what comes to my mind. If this is a marketing scheme we will have to wait and see.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

ratirt said:


> It could mean that. bigger than 5700XT. It could mean something else time will tell.
> 
> Outstanding is what I get from the article and what's been said. If you think it will be better than 2080Ti it's fine with me. I'm not going to make this assumption.
> I will leave it as outstanding. When somebody compares Ryzen launch to what the new RDNA2 will brings, outstanding is what comes to my mind. If this is a marketing scheme we will have to wait and see.


if it isn't faster than 2080ti,then it isn't standing out.


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## Super XP (Feb 3, 2020)

efikkan said:


> My advice is to consume these rumors with generous amounts of NaCl.
> 
> Lisa Su also said that the high-end was important to them, funny considering AMD haven't been participating there for years. It makes me wonder what _she_ means by "big Navi" and "high-end", it could simply mean anything bigger and better than RX 5700 XT.
> 
> ...


AMD hasn't participated in the high end. Well of course not, how could they after the Bulldozer release? People shouldn't be asking why AMD hasn't participated in the high end for years as it's already Very Well Known why they couldn't back then. 

Soon after AMD launched the ZEN CPUs they were developing RDNA1. Soon after strong Ryzen sales and profits they injected much needed R&D into the RTG hence RDNA2. 
On top of next gen gaming consoles coming out Christmas 2020 powered by RDNA2. Etc

This is old news already well known. People will underestimate AMDs RDNA2 potential because of how there Radeons performed in comparison to Nvidia GPUs. Without realizing AMD split the Server GPU and the Gamers GPU no longer releasing ONE design to appease every market segment. 

If the gaming oriented RX 5700XT is not a positive indication that AMD in caught up to Nvidia then we will have to wait and see how this plays out in 2020.



cucker tarlson said:


> not even close


My post is based on FACTS. Is yours ? Nope


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## ratirt (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> if it isn't faster than 2080ti,then it isn't standing out.


And you know it isn't? Cause you were arguing that it will never be released few posts up.
I said the odds are that it will be release cause it has been mentioned by Lisa Su, other executives from AMD and lead Radeon managers. Although you didn't say if you mean RDNA or RDNA2. If AMD says it is coming then it is. AMD's 2020 GPU roadmap says, New Navi (RDNA2) in 2020 but if you say it's not then maybe tell AMD this, cause they don't know that. 


cucker tarlson said:


> There will be no big navi.
> They cant even get the small navi to work properly.
> Ampere will compete with turing and next gen consoles (and their desktop equivalents).


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> not even close



Single GPU was the V20 MI60. Then NV super binned and overclocked the V100 to make the V100S.

Dual GPU single cards. The V20 based pro duo is king.

Under $2500 USD... Radeon VII is the fastest.


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## jabbadap (Feb 3, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> I corrected it.
> 
> 5.5x faster than the 5700XT
> 8x faster than the 2080ti
> ...



Well do correct it again, it's Tesla not Quadro as Quadro GV100 is actual product and it has 7.6TFlops of fp64 compute power. Actual server products are Tesla V100 SXM2 16GB/32GB, V100 PCIe 16GB/32GB, V100S PCIe 32GB... 

So yeah this upcoming Tesla card will fight against upcoming AMD MI100 and Intel XE Ponte Vecchio server gpus.


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

jabbadap said:


> Well do correct it again, it's Tesla not Quadro as Quadro GV100 is actual product and it has 7.6TFlops of fp64 compute power. Actual server products are Tesla V100 SXM2 16GB/32GB, V100 PCIe 16GB/32GB, V100S PCIe 32GB...
> 
> So yeah this upcoming Tesla card will fight against upcoming AMD MI100 and Intel XE Ponte Vecchio server gpus.



I based my numbers and models directly on the default design numbers as per the GPU database.

NV already had Tesla cores in the 8000/9000 series...

I refer to the core architecture which your Tesla V100 is running what architecture again...

Architecture: Volta


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## T4C Fantasy (Feb 3, 2020)

The die shown in the pic is not Volta or Turing afaik which means this next gen Tesla has 84 next gen SMs

So 64 cores per SM would be 5376
128 cores per SM would be 10752 cores


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## kapone32 (Feb 3, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Single GPU was the V20 MI60. Then NV super binned and overclocked the V100 to make the V100S.
> 
> Dual GPU single cards. The V20 based pro duo is king.
> 
> Under $2500 USD... Radeon VII is the fastest.



In what?


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## Super XP (Feb 3, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> There will be no big navi.
> They cant even get the small navi to work properly.
> Ampere will compete with turing and next gen consoles (and their desktop equivalents).


Quite the contrary lol
Dr. Lisa Su is a smart CEO, give credit where credit is due. Claiming she's lying about a high end graphics card i.e. Big Navi is basically insulting the women. Lmao



kapone32 said:


> In what?


Double precision workloads.

R7 Double Precision Work Loads


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## T4C Fantasy (Feb 3, 2020)

Also the next gen MI100 by AMD will be 8192 cores
128 CUs


			[PATCH 099/102] drm/amdkfd: Increase vcrat size for GPU


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> In what?



In FP64 workloads. For video processing the Radeon VII is the people's champion.

Despite Steve being so far up NVs ass all he knows how to bench for workstation performance is CUDA based. LoL


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## Vya Domus (Feb 3, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Volta is really quite different than the Turing cores.



It really isn't that different when it comes to compute, in fact Volta was the basis for Turing. SM configurations, caches, concurrency/scheduling, etc , they are practically the same with the exception of FP64 units and RT cores.


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## gamefoo21 (Feb 3, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> It really isn't that different when it comes to compute, in fact Volta was the basis for Turing. SM configurations, caches, concurrency/scheduling, etc , they are practically the same with the exception of FP64 units and RT cores.



Different enough that the CUDA cores in Turing take multiple cycles to deal with big numbers still.

I think they are related like brothers. Same parents different outcomes using mostly the same building blocks.

Also it's easier to make them seem different because I see so many people posting this is a direct replacement for Turing, like this is what will be driving the 3080Ti... Parts of it, but this is the nerdy core, Turing and it's successor are more the jock core. Pretty but kinda shit at math.

LoL


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 3, 2020)

ratirt said:


> And you know it isn't? Cause you were arguing that it will never be released few posts up.
> I said the odds are that it will be release cause it has been mentioned by Lisa Su, other executives from AMD and lead Radeon managers. Although you didn't say if you mean RDNA or RDNA2. If AMD says it is coming then it is. AMD's 2020 GPU roadmap says, New Navi (RDNA2) in 2020 but if you say it's not then maybe tell AMD this, cause they don't know that.


no,I said no BIG navi
please read more carefully


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## the54thvoid (Feb 3, 2020)

This thread's a real slug fest of rumour versus unrealistic expectation. It's the worst of TPU community 'tech talk'. All based on nothing of substantial merit. Whatever Ampere brings at such a huge improvement will unlikely yield such results in gaming, the biggest market TPU members care about. As for big Navi, even more rumour.


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## Steevo (Feb 3, 2020)

Also, Nvidia typically stumbles with first gen node dies, I get that they are 25% more efficient with power due to the node difference between them and AMD using 7nm. But history has not been kind to Nvidia during transition to new nodes and processes. Maybe they will have this one figured out.


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## net2007 (Feb 3, 2020)

That's a lot of fancy die talk. Comes down to what people are willing to pay. Titan Z $2500 didn't go so well. 2080ti $1200 ($200 greater than normal Titans) didn't go so well. In fact, there wasn't much reason to upgrade over 10 series. Bet they will be more cautious this time around.


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## Minus Infinity (Feb 3, 2020)

It's obvious from AMD's Lisa Su, Nvidia will no longer have the high-end to themselves with next gen cards. We already know AMD will offer products to compete at the 2080 and higher lever with RDNA2. 2020/2021 will give us some good competition right through the price brackets and maybe with some luck 2021/2022 will see Intel offer something at least in the low to  mid-range too. I don't think Nvidia will make the same mistake with the 3xxx series prcing as they did with the 2xxx, the sales were really not great initially and look without Navi we would never have seen the super range released. They already know they now have  a fight and it won't get easier with Navi+.


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## efikkan (Feb 3, 2020)

Everyone, please remember that both segments like "high-end" and the performance levels required for new games in e.g. 4K are moving targets. By the time Nvidia's next generation arrives, the "RTX 2080 performance level" will no longer be regarded as "high-end".


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## Fluffmeister (Feb 3, 2020)

Yeah also I'm not getting the Nvidia struggle on new nodes either, 16nm Pascal still remains a headache for AMD years later.... aka now.


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## SIGSEGV (Feb 4, 2020)

At this point, I do really wish that AMD's Radeon division going bankruptcy and disappear. 
This is not good at all.


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## renz496 (Feb 4, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> At least there's someone else who understands this.
> 
> Volta is really quite different than the Turing cores.
> 
> ...



OpenCL exist for a decade now. Back in 2009 they said give it two years. Two years and no one ever remember CUDA ever exist. Part of the issue is CUDA is fully controlled by nvidia. That in one aspect will speed up CUDA development and optimization on nvidia hardware. With OpenCL everyone needs to agree what spec to be accepted into the API and this where the major problem are. Because some feature might work nicely on one hardware but not others. And they will not want this to happen because that will only give certain IHV the comepetitive edge while leave out the others. So while they are disputing how the feature should be added to the spec closed API like CUDA already moving forward to implement next feature and improvement. For professional client they will favor the one that really works for them even if they really like open source. Because in pro world time is money. And second if only certain vendor going to be good with that open source API what the point? Because to get maximize percormance they will still going to be locked on that certian hardware when the point of using open source solution is not to locked themselves on one vendor only.


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## TheGuruStud (Feb 4, 2020)

SIGSEGV said:


> At this point, I do really wish that AMD's Radeon division going bankruptcy and disappear.
> This is not good at all.



Wut? Lay off the Huang juice.


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## renz496 (Feb 4, 2020)

Fluffmeister said:


> Yeah also I'm not getting the Nvidia struggle on new nodes either, 16nm Pascal still remains a headache for AMD years later.... aka now.



This. Nvidia might have issues in the past when moving to new node but after 40nm disaster they put a lot more effort in this issue. 28nm i don't any issue. Same with 16nm. Now they invest even more money to enable themselves to get a node they really want like 12nmFFN where they can reliaze the dream of GV100 with staggering die size than none of us ever think was possible. 7nm has been out for quite some time now. Just because nvidia did not launch 7nm product like AMD meaning their upcoming transition to 8nm will be more problematic because they have much less experience on it. Nvidia most likely have access to the node from much earlier just like others but they just don't need it yet. The development route they take like 12nmFFN will be their "alternative way out" if future node have issues.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> no,I said no BIG navi
> please read more carefully


I dead read you and I've mentioned I don't know if you are referring to RDNA or RDNA2. You need to be more specific. Besides i's been in the ether for a while that the RDNA aka BIG NAVI will not be released but The "BIG NAVI" RDNA2 will. Just wanted to get that one clear.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> I dead read you and I've mentioned I don't know if you are referring to RDNA or RDNA2. You need to be more specific. Besides i's been in the ether for a while that the RDNA aka BIG NAVI will not be released but The "BIG NAVI" RDNA2 will. Just wanted to get that one clear.


both
I'm hoping for rdna2 rt card in h2 but I wouldn't put it past amd to do some sort of stupid 580->590-like refresh with 5700xt+/5700xtx and move the real rdna 2 cards to 2021.


----------



## kings (Feb 4, 2020)

Minus Infinity said:


> It's obvious from AMD's Lisa Su, Nvidia will no longer have the high-end to themselves with next gen cards. We already know AMD will offer products to compete at the 2080 and higher lever with RDNA2. 2020/2021 will give us some good competition right through the price brackets and maybe with some luck 2021/2022 will see Intel offer something at least in the low to  mid-range too. I don't think Nvidia will make the same mistake with the 3xxx series prcing as they did with the 2xxx, the sales were really not great initially and look without Navi we would never have seen the super range released. They already know they now have  a fight and it won't get easier with Navi+.



We will see, the last time AMD said it was going to compete seriously in the high end, we had Vega, 15 months after Pascal, barely matching the GTX 1080.

Not to mention the "overclockers dream" or "poor Volta" thing, etc ... What CEOs say is not reliable and especially at AMD we have had recent cases of reality not matching what is said. Therefore, caution and control over expectations are necessary.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

kings said:


> We will see, the last time AMD said it was going to compete seriously in the high end, we had Vega, 15 months after Pascal, barely matching the GTX 1080.
> 
> Not to mention the "overclockers dream" or "poor Volta" thing, etc ... What CEOs say is not reliable and especially at AMD we have had recent cases of reality not matching what is said. Therefore, caution and control over expectations are necessary.


amd proved that even when they have they tools like new,more efficient architecture and a 7nm tsmc node,they still can't deliver in the high end.
all this amd ceo "we'll be big next year" talk that people keep telling me to believe makes me nauseous.
I'll believe it when I see big rdna2 cards this year,if it's gonna be rdna1 refresh to go against two year old turing cards it'll be a miserable failure yet again.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

kings said:


> We will see, the last time AMD said it was going to compete seriously in the high end, we had Vega, 15 months after Pascal, barely matching the GTX 1080.
> 
> Not to mention the "overclockers dream" or "poor Volta" thing, etc ... What CEOs say is not reliable and especially at AMD we have had recent cases of reality not matching what is said. Therefore, caution and control over expectations are necessary.


Well, NV is releasing its new GPU first. At this point anything is possible. Even though It  has been confirmed the new RDNA2 is coming out this year, we all know this may change. I think AMD is waiting for the new NV GPU (that's a maybe). If they find out the new NV is not that improved over the Turing, maybe they will do something else? It is hard to predict what each company will actually do. 
Even if NV and AMD release their cards I will still wait for benchmarks. I'm not in a hurry and I need to see what each can do to make a purchase decision.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> I think AMD is waiting for the new NV GPU


what about the old ones ? are they waiting to release a 2080 competitor too?


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> what about the old ones ? are they waiting to release a 2080 competitor too?


Think about it. If AMD was to release RDNA NAVI to compete with 2080 and up, it would have happened by now. I mean, that is what I think. I don't know why AMD is waiting. Maybe they just want to ditch the RDNA and move on? NV is releasing new graphics in May probably (present the new graphics). What's the point for AMD to release 2080 and up competitor now, when new stuff is just around the corner from NV? So it can compete with it for 3 months tops?


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Think about it. If AMD was to release RDNA NAVI to compete with 2080 and up, it would have happened by now. I mean, that is what I think. I don't know why AMD is waiting. Maybe they just want to ditch the RDNA and move on? NV is releasing new graphics in May probably (present the new graphics). What's the point for AMD to release 2080 and up competitor now, when new stuff is just around the corner from NV? So it can compete with it for 3 months tops?






> During the earnings call, AMD's CEO, Dr. Lisa Su, once again confirmed new Radeon RX graphics cards in 2020 but she didn't just mention next-generation RDNA based products but also unveiled that existing Navi (RDNA1) graphics cards would be refreshed.



I just feel sorry for those who buy navi refresh in 2020 when consoles will get rdna 2 at the same time.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I just feel sorry for those who buy navi refresh in 2020 when consoles will get rdna 2 at the same time.


Will they get RDNA2? Fully fledged RDNA2? From what I've read so far it says NAVI with Ray tracing. Maybe some derivative from RDNA with some hardware accelerating ray tracing.  It does not have to be RDNA2 and I think the official specs haven't been presented yet. Still it is dedicated gpu we are talking about here. Besides, even though NV has introduced RT in the Turing graphics, AMD still stayed conservative about the RT idea. PS5 may have the acceleration, but it has never been said it will be RDNA2. 
Also, I think there was always this correlation between consoles and graphics. How I always pictured it, the new stuff was always introduced as a GPU for PC and then it would find it's way to consoles. That is reasonable since consoles as dedicated gaming platforms, don't need that much processing power as PCs do and (despite PS4pro), all graphics options are locked. 

Why do you feel sorry? Most of the people purchasing it, know what they've purchased and for what reason. AMD was not aiming for sorry though and what I hear, people are happy with the performance for what they had to pay for it. Performance per $ and value is good in the tier where the card is currently. Also mixing up consoles and PC graphics in the way you do is not right. 
I can say, I'm sorry for people who purchased Turing in 2020 since new NV GPU is going to be released soon. I don't think that would have been justified since they are happy with what they've got.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Will they get RDNA2? Fully fledged RDNA2? From what I've read so far it says NAVI with Ray tracing. Maybe some derivative from RDNA with some hardware accelerating ray tracing.  It does not have to be RDNA2 and I think the official specs haven't been presented yet. Still it is dedicated gpu we are talking about here. Besides, even though NV has introduced RT in the Turing graphics, AMD still stayed conservative about the RT idea. PS5 may have the acceleration, but it has never been said it will be RDNA2.
> Also, I think there was always this correlation between consoles and graphics. How I always pictured it, the new stuff was always introduced as a GPU for PC and then it would find it's way to consoles. That is reasonable since consoles as dedicated gaming platforms, don't need that much processing power as PCs do and (despite PS4pro), all graphics options are locked.
> 
> Why do you feel sorry? Most of the people purchasing it, know what they've purchased and for what reason. AMD was not aiming for sorry though and what I hear, people are happy with the performance for what they had to pay for it. Performance per $ and value is good in the tier where the card is currently. Also mixing up consoles and PC graphics in the way you do is not right.
> I can say, I'm sorry for people who purchased Turing in 2020 since new NV GPU is going to be released soon. I don't think that would have been justified since they are happy with what they've got.


rdna 2 is rdna with rt and vrs on 7nm+



ratirt said:


> I can say, I'm sorry for people who purchased Turing in 2020


me too


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> rdna 2 is rdna with rt and vrs on 7nm+
> 
> 
> me too


And how can you possibly know that?
Try this for a change.
This Ampere is nothing more than Turing on a 7nm node. Nothing special about it and I wouldn't expect much. Would you agree with my statement?


cucker tarlson said:


> me too


that was a sarcasm but sure, I give  you that one


----------



## kings (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Well, NV is releasing its new GPU first. At this point anything is possible. Even though It  has been confirmed the new RDNA2 is coming out this year, we all know this may change. I think AMD is waiting for the new NV GPU (that's a maybe). If they find out the new NV is not that improved over the Turing, maybe they will do something else? It is hard to predict what each company will actually do.
> Even if NV and AMD release their cards I will still wait for benchmarks. I'm not in a hurry and I need to see what each can do to make a purchase decision.



But AMD cannot wait, they are the ones who have to gain market share, increase profits, try to change the mindshare, etc ... It is AMD that is playing catch up, so if they have big guns, there is no interest in waiting. 

The longer they wait, the more time they give Nvidia to respond and even subject themselves to Nvidia already having something better by then. It's a dangerous game for them, I don't think AMD is doing this on purpose.



ratirt said:


> Think about it. If AMD was to release RDNA NAVI to compete with 2080 and up, it would have happened by now. I mean, that is what I think. I don't know why AMD is waiting. Maybe they just want to ditch the RDNA and move on? NV is releasing new graphics in May probably (present the new graphics). What's the point for AMD to release 2080 and up competitor now, when new stuff is just around the corner from NV? So it can compete with it for 3 months tops?



I agree, for me It´s clear by now that 1st gen Navi will not go beyond this, otherwise they had already launched them. And it´s not because they are waiting, it´s because it is probably not feasible to scale up to the level they need. AMD did not mind launching a Radeon VII and discontinuing it 4 months later, for that reason, I don´t believe that AMD is waiting for something new from Nvidia, they simply have nothing to offer.

Maybe with RDNA 2 things will be much different, we all hope so, but that is also unknown. People tend to think that RDNA 2 is going to be a revolution, but there is no evidence of that, only rumors. It may just be RDNA 1 with minor tweaks and RT/VRS, we don´t know. The same applies to Nvidia's rumors, we don't know if it's just going to be a slight tweak on Turing or something quite different.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> And how can you possibly know that?











						Ray Tracing and Variable-Rate Shading Design Goals for AMD RDNA2
					

Hardware-accelerated ray tracing and variable-rate shading will be the design focal points for AMD's next-generation RDNA2 graphics architecture. Microsoft's reveal of its Xbox Series X console attributed both features to AMD's "next generation RDNA" architecture (which logically happens to be...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




you commented like a thousand times in this thread



ratirt said:


> This Ampere is nothing more than Turing on a 7nm node. Nothing special about it and I wouldn't expect much. Would you agree with my statement?


no,cause turing on 7nm would be amazing
pascal was maxwell on a shrunk die and it put amd so far behind that they still can't catch up with 1080Ti in 2020 unless you're counting radeon 7



kings said:


> Maybe with RDNA 2 things will be much different, we all hope so, but that is also unknown. People tend to think that RDNA 2 is going to be a revolution, but there is no evidence of that, only rumors.


one person thinks it and keeps spamming every  thread with it
fixed that for you.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

kings said:


> But AMD cannot wait, they are the ones who have to gain market share, increase profits, try to change the mindshare, etc ... It is AMD that is playing catch up, so if they have big guns, there is no interest in waiting.
> 
> The longer they wait, the more time they give Nvidia to respond and even subject themselves to Nvidia already having something better by then. It's a dangerous game for them, I don't think AMD is doing this on purpose.


Yes, You are totally right, They need to get the market share but going irrational, rush things and pump media with false info will not give'em this. Guys, AMD , Intel Nvidia, been in the market for so damn long. AMD was almost bankrupt and yet they are doing fine now. I'm sure AMD realizes this market share and it is not that they need to gain market share, they want this. AMD is aware and I can assure you they have a plan for all of this. AMD got CPUs out of the "dead" so lets wait and see what AMD will do with the GPUs. There hundreds of people thinking about the next steps and cautiously plan next moves. AMD needs market share is not groundbreaking news in my eyes.



cucker tarlson said:


> you commented like a thousand times in this thread


No no brother. How do you know RDNA2 is RDNA on 7nm+ with Ray Tracing. 
What the OP said about PS5in the thread says Based on RDNA2 which can mean anything. Either way I haven't seen it confirmed.



cucker tarlson said:


> no,cause turing on 7nm would be amazing
> pascal was maxwell on a shrunk die and it put amd so far behind that they still can't catch up with 1080Ti in 2020 unless you're counting radeon 7


I see. that explains everything.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> AMD is aware and I can assure you they have a plan for all of this.



to refresh rdna1 in 2020 ?


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> to refresh rdna1 in 2020 ?


Could be. Just like NV wants to refresh Turing with Ampere 



kings said:


> But AMD cannot wait, they are the ones who have to gain market share, increase profits, try to change the mindshare, etc ... It is AMD that is playing catch up, so if they have big guns, there is no interest in waiting.
> 
> The longer they wait, the more time they give Nvidia to respond and even subject themselves to Nvidia already having something better by then. It's a dangerous game for them, I don't think AMD is doing this on purpose.


BTW is NV that is supposed to wait or AMD? What "wait" here means? If I were AMD I would wait for NV's release. To see where I stand with their new GPU and the odds are it will be very good. Wait and make adjustments to whatever they've got and if it turns out AMD can't compete, adjust the graphics tiers and lower price by making cuts to at least stay competitive at the price/performance ratio. Needless to say, most people think that AMD is the black sheep in the GPU market so AMD needs to bite on the bullet and bite pretty damn good.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Could be. Just like NV wants to refresh Turing with Ampere


source ?
I don't know how your getting all this information cause so far amd mentioned rdna2 is rdna1 with rt and vrs but you claims it'srevolutionary for some reason,while nvidia said nothing about ampere and yet you know it's disappointing.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> source ?
> I don't know how your getting all this information cause so far amd mentioned rdna2 is rdna1 with rt and vrs but you claims it'srevolutionary for some reason,while nvidia said nothing about ampere and yet you know it's disappointing.


Source?
Since we are at the source. Any source what Ampere actually is? 
BTW it is still sarcasm.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> If I were AMD I would wait for NV's release. To see where I stand with their new GPU and the odds are it will be very good.


they had nothiong for tu104 and up,so yeah,keep waiting to see if ampere is slower than turing maybe.



ratirt said:


> Source?


where did you get that ampere is turing refresh ?

at this point you're pretty much trolling.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> they had nothiong for tu104 and up,so yeah,keep waiting to see if ampere is slower than turing maybe.


Who said it is going to be slower? I said it will be very good card. AMD is waiting to see what its up against. That is how I take it and that is why Navi RDNA has never been released.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> that is why Navi RDNA has never been released.


what ?

dude,stop trolling every gpu thread with false information.


----------



## efikkan (Feb 4, 2020)

kings said:


> We will see, the last time AMD said it was going to compete seriously in the high end, we had Vega, 15 months after Pascal, barely matching the GTX 1080.
> 
> Not to mention the "overclockers dream" or "poor Volta" thing, etc ... What CEOs say is not reliable and especially at AMD we have had recent cases of reality not matching what is said. Therefore, caution and control over expectations are necessary.


Yeah, this seems to be a recurring thing with AMD lately. The new one is disappointing; then rumors of a bigger version immediately surfaces. This has been the case with Polaris, Vega and Navi.



ratirt said:


> Well, NV is releasing its new GPU first. At this point anything is possible.


Well, nothing seems to indicate Nvidia's next gen is imminent. Consumer products are probably shipping in the second half of the year, but that's still a guess.



ratirt said:


> Even though It  has been confirmed the new RDNA2 is coming out this year, we all know this may change. I think AMD is waiting for the new NV GPU (that's a maybe). If they find out the new NV is not that improved over the Turing, maybe they will do something else? It is hard to predict what each company will actually do.


They certainly can postpone or cancel products, or overclock them like they recently did. But the technical details of Navi 2x were already set in stone when it was taped out, probably early last year. People generally overestimate these companies' ability to adapt on the fly. They can certainly adjust clock speeds (within a range), disable/enable some features and change pricing on a moment's notice, but pretty much everything else is decided 2-3 years ahead. Even changes in production of different wafers usually takes >4 months until it reaches the market.



ratirt said:


> Even if NV and AMD release their cards I will still wait for benchmarks. I'm not in a hurry and I need to see what each can do to make a purchase decision.


Of course, this should be the case for everyone. 

At this point, no one (even at Nvidia) knows exactly how these new cards will perform.


----------



## Juankato1987 (Feb 4, 2020)

We are always worried about NV pricing... lol...  hopelly a RTX 3050 might be the game changer  RTX at 200$ or less????
and 1660's performance at 150$ may be????
who knows.....


----------



## ratirt (Feb 4, 2020)

Juankato1987 said:


> We are always worried about NV pricing... lol...  hopelly a RTX 3050 might be the game changer  RTX at 200$ or less????
> and 1660's performance at 150$ may be????
> who knows.....


do you really believe that ? I really hope so it will happen.


efikkan said:


> They certainly can postpone or cancel products, or overclock them like they recently did. But the technical details of Navi 2x were already set in stone when it was taped out, probably early last year. People generally overestimate these companies' ability to adapt on the fly. They can certainly adjust clock speeds (within a range), disable/enable some features and change pricing on a moment's notice, but pretty much everything else is decided 2-3 years ahead. Even changes in production of different wafers usually takes >4 months until it reaches the market.


Read it as it goes with the quotes.  

With all do respect. I don't underestimate anything. The specs for RDNA2 are not there. Just as NV's aren't. I'm trying to be objective but it does not bode well with some members here. 

Question. What are those specs? NAVI 2x? what is that mean? BTW I can say same thing about NV. Just as our friend Tarlson said Ampere it is something totally different from Turing in terms of arch (not RDNA2 becuse that is just a refresh) Well, The AMPERE,  I see RT cores, Cuda, Tensore. Is this something to justify new? It looks same to me as Turing in every way. I'm not here to mark what you say but please use arguments. Comparison of the two at this point is crazy. Companies can do whatever they want. It is a market and they will do anything to sell stuff. 

Agreed. Anything can happen.


----------



## kapone32 (Feb 4, 2020)

All of those suppositions that AMD CANNOT catch Nvidia remind me of all the flak on the internet before Ryzen launched. I read a lot of comments like "Ryzen will never catch Intel". Today I don't think anyone would state Intel's CPUs are summarily better than AMD's offerings (Unless you are a fanboy) . AMD has always been a company with great ideas but bad leadership (Just read the history of AMD (ARM & GLO FO). 

Today's AMD GPU division is not the company that refreshed Tahiti for 5 or 6 generations. The evidence of this was Polaris that was just as fast as Tahiti with 1/2 the power draw (That was the biggest caveat to AMD cards). Vega was good but released during the mining craze that made it's price go through the roof this made it less of a proposition vs Nvidia. 

The 5700XT is currently AMD's fastest card. Not that we can but if we look at Ryzen it started at 8 cores and 16 cores max with TR4 in 2017. It is 2020 and the core count has increased to 16 and 64 cores max for HEDT. That is in 3 years, much more than Intel has done in 10. I have confidence in Lisa Su and have not heard her say anything that has not come to pass. I am not saying it is definite but I do believe the propensity is high, besides we need Nvidia to bring prices back to where they were before the mining craze.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> All of those suppositions that AMD CANNOT catch Nvidia remind me of all the flak on the internet before Ryzen launched. I read a lot of comments like "Ryzen will never catch Intel". Today I don't think anyone would state Intel's CPUs are summarily better than AMD's offerings (Unless you are a fanboy) . AMD has always been a company with great ideas but bad leadership (Just read the history of AMD (ARM & GLO FO).
> 
> Today's AMD GPU division is not the company that refreshed Tahiti for 5 or 6 generations. The evidence of this was Polaris that was just as fast as Tahiti with 1/2 the power draw (That was the biggest caveat to AMD cards). Vega was good but released during the mining craze that made it's price go through the roof this made it less of a proposition vs Nvidia.
> 
> The 5700XT is currently AMD's fastest card. Not that we can but if we look at Ryzen it started at 8 cores and 16 cores max with TR4 in 2017. It is 2020 and the core count has increased to 16 and 64 cores max for HEDT. That is in 3 years, much more than Intel has done in 10. I have confidence in Lisa Su and have not heard her say anything that has not come to pass. I am not saying it is definite but I do believe the propensity is high, besides we need Nvidia to bring prices back to where they were before the mining craze.


except nvidia is not intel


----------



## kapone32 (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> except nvidia is not intel



I am well aware of that but is Nvidia looking over their shoulder? WIth the release of the 2060KO it would seem so.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> I am well aware of that but is Nvidia looking over their shoulder? WIth the release of the 2060KO it would seem so.


well they didn't really do anything for 2080ti since launch,and it's more ridicoulously priced than any gpu I ever remembered


----------



## kapone32 (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> well they didn't really do anything for 2080ti since launch,and it's more ridicoulously priced than any gpu I ever remembered
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I believe AMD is doing the right thing by trying to get the midrange as those GPUs sell way more than high end. As far as i am concerned the 2080Ti, 2080S Super and retail 1080TIs are way too expensive. This is why I hope that RDNA2 or Big Navi do indeed compete at lower prices. I want to replace my Vega 64(s) but not at the cost of an entire decent build.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Feb 4, 2020)

renz496 said:


> OpenCL exist for a decade now. Back in 2009 they said give it two years. Two years and no one ever remember CUDA ever exist. Part of the issue is CUDA is fully controlled by nvidia. That in one aspect will speed up CUDA development and optimization on nvidia hardware. With OpenCL everyone needs to agree what spec to be accepted into the API and this where the major problem are. Because some feature might work nicely on one hardware but not others. And they will not want this to happen because that will only give certain IHV the comepetitive edge while leave out the others. So while they are disputing how the feature should be added to the spec closed API like CUDA already moving forward to implement next feature and improvement. For professional client they will favor the one that really works for them even if they really like open source. Because in pro world time is money. And second if only certain vendor going to be good with that open source API what the point? Because to get maximize percormance they will still going to be locked on that certian hardware when the point of using open source solution is not to locked themselves on one vendor only.



Nvidia definitely doesn't help the situation. They purposefully cripple OpenCL on their GPUs.

They refuse to support newer versions of it. Radeons have supported OpenCL 2.0 since the 7790.

It's like nV making an incompatible Variable Refresh tech, to the open standard in DisplayPort. Intel adopted the open spec, the HDMI group came on board, and adopted it. Suddenly nV made gSync work with Adaptive Vsync no NV port corruption necessary.

NV will block and slow down OpenCL as much as they can. I suspect you'll see their tune change if the Intel and AMD really start challenging NV.

I still hate that NV does everything they can to make PhysX all but impossible if your main GPU isn't NV.



cucker tarlson said:


> well they didn't really do anything for 2080ti since launch,and it's more ridicoulously priced than any gpu I ever remembered



Titan V?


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 4, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Titan V?


titan rtx ?


----------



## efikkan (Feb 4, 2020)

ratirt said:


> With all do respect. I don't underestimate anything. The specs for RDNA2 are not there. Just as NV's aren't. I'm trying to be objective but it does not bode well with some members here.


I don't pretend to know the specs of either if that's what you're implying.

I was just trying to point out that AMD's ability to adapt their lineup to what Nvidia launches is very limited, and vice versa of course. Beyond price and clock speeds, there is little they can adjust over night. It's not like they can whip up a new chip design in a couple of months.



ratirt said:


> Question. What are those specs? NAVI 2x? what is that mean?


We know of three Navi 2x chips so far; Navi 21, Navi 22 and Navi 23 from Linux driver patches. If there are more than these three chips coming, then will not be launching anytime soon.



ratirt said:


> BTW I can say same thing about NV. Just as our friend Tarlson said Ampere it is something totally different from Turing in terms of arch (not RDNA2 becuse that is just a refresh) Well, The AMPERE,  I see RT cores, Cuda, Tensore. Is this something to justify new? It looks same to me as Turing in every way.


I don't know exactly where you _see_ these details, to my knowledge Nvidia haven't released anything public about "Ampere" so far.

But regardless, they've been using "Cuda cores" for many generations (since Tesla?), but their performance characteristics have changed radically over time. Just from Pascal to Turing there were major efficiency gains.

I don't know if Nvidia's next gen will be a small tweak of Turing or if it's another major architecture, but deriving this from vague rumors is utterly pointless. I've seen nothing substantive about Nvidia's next gen so far, and a pro-tip; whenever you see rumors pointing in every direction, it's usually an indication that "all of them" are just BS, it's a typical symptom of the information vacuum we're in right now. This is why I have recommended to be cautious about most "Ampere" or Navi 2x rumors so far. When we are getting closer to a real launch, we will start to see believable rumors pointing in the same direction.

As for Nvidia's next gen, you have to acknowledge that even if it's just a shrunk and tweaked Turing, it's going to cause some real challenge for AMD to compete with. Nvidia currently have a huge lead thanks to their architectural superiority, even with AMD having a node advantage. With the next gen that advantage will be gone for AMD.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> titan rtx ?



Hmm... Good point...


----------



## medi01 (Feb 4, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> amd proved that even when they have they tools like new,more efficient architecture and a 7nm tsmc node,they still can't deliver in the high end.


Do you actually believe what you type?


----------



## T4C Fantasy (Feb 5, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> I am well aware of that but is Nvidia looking over their shoulder? WIth the release of the 2060KO it would seem so.


The KO was not a response from Nvidia.. it's a reused chip they do every year with the xx60 series.. the only reason why we know is because the card was disassembled. TU104 2060 is sold by all manufacturers randomly with the same skus.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 5, 2020)

medi01 said:


> Do you actually believe what you type?


lol,look who's talking 

do I believe ? yes,strongly.I mean you have to be delusional to think otherwise when amd's last high end competitor was fury x.
with every release their goalposts move,after fury x their high end was vega 64 that went against gtx 1080,now they're gladly selling rtx 2070 (106 die) competitor at +$400 with a limited feature set.
Why cant the red fanbase accept the obvious-amd have introduced the NVIDIA model.they are gladly selling 250mm dies at $400 and making more money than before so they dont event bother with chasing nvidia in the high end when they're milking the mid range


----------



## ratirt (Feb 5, 2020)

efikkan said:


> We know of three Navi 2x chips so far; Navi 21, Navi 22 and Navi 23 from Linux driver patches. If there are more than these three chips coming, then will not be launching anytime soon.


Oh. Now I get it. I read it as 2x- two times and that got me confused.


efikkan said:


> I don't know exactly where you _see_ these details, to my knowledge Nvidia haven't released anything public about "Ampere" so far.
> 
> But regardless, they've been using "Cuda cores" for many generations (since Tesla?), but their performance characteristics have changed radically over time. Just from Pascal to Turing there were major efficiency gains.
> 
> ...


You always have to be cautious with the information. My argument was we don't know anything about either of the new cards. 
I do acknowledge this and I have mentioned this in the previous posts. I am sure that the new NV release will be fast and great. Not sure about the price though. Actually I'm worried about the price but that's just me.


----------



## medi01 (Feb 5, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> lol,look who's talking


Yeah, oh, wait, what? Jesus...



cucker tarlson said:


> do I believe ? yes,strongly.I mean you have to be delusional to think otherwise when amd's last high end competitor was fury x.


So you honestly believe that AMD, which was able to beat almighty Intel even at IPC while flooding market with cores, is not capable of producing 7nm GPU chips that are 500+ mm2 in size?
Like, freaking, for real?






GPU gap was never even remotely as big and bad as the gap we had in CPU market. Only in Raja's time, with modest R&D obviously focusing on Zen, AMD went "missing in action".  But it's getting back, with entire set from 5700 to 5500 series looking good. Bigger chips are inevitably coming.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 5, 2020)

medi01 said:


> Yeah, oh, wait, what? Jesus...
> 
> 
> So you honestly believe that AMD, which was able to beat almighty Intel even at IPC while flooding market with cores, is not capable of producing 7nm GPU chips that are 500+ mm2 in size?
> ...


This is a GPU thread,Intel and epyc have nothing to do with it.
Amd has the design to beat intel in every market,if they can do the same with navi I will be happy to see it rather than hear their marketing talk about disrupting 4k gaming.
They're on 7 nm tsmc and new uarch,why dont they put up? Cause of what I wrote before.They would lose to nvidias +$500 cards cause of lack of features,so they're happy to milk mid range.
Let us see those chips,I am not buying a word their CEO or their fanbase say about high end Radeon.


----------



## renz496 (Feb 5, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Nvidia definitely doesn't help the situation. They purposefully cripple OpenCL on their GPUs.
> 
> They refuse to support newer versions of it. Radeons have supported OpenCL 2.0 since the 7790.
> 
> ...


Because nvidia don't relly have a reason to push opencl when their CUDA development will always outpace Opencl development due to their full control of CUDA. no need to purposely holding their performance back because it might be unfair to AMD. take this as an example: nvidia push for a feature that can speed up performance on their hardware only. But because it will only give nvidia the advantage the feature are being debate among IHV and being hold back or even refused to be part of API spec. This is part of the problem with open source API. That's why nvidia end up breaking some of opengl standard before for performance reason. If nvidia going all out with opencl and did similar thing what they did with opengl before people will still going to complain about it. So rather than wasting time to porting all their work to opencl they just continue their already solid CUDA foundation to move forward.


----------



## efikkan (Feb 5, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> They're on 7 nm tsmc and new uarch,why dont they put up? Cause of what I wrote before.They would lose to nvidias +$500 cards cause of lack of features,so they're happy to milk mid range.
> Let us see those chips,I am not buying a word their CEO or their fanbase say about high end Radeon.


I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but I wouldn't call what they're doing "milking the mid-range", they are moving small volumes compared to Nvidia in the mid-range. I think they would love to have products in the high-end, those would offer good margins and good PR for the company. But their "mistake" is that their focus is on making custom chips for the consoles, and then port this to PCs to make some extra bucks. In order to become competitive, they need to put desktop PCs first, and I don't think they are willing to do that.

Navi 1x couldn't scale much further, and even if they had a 60 CU version, it could easily go over 350W if they didn't clock it much lower than RX 5700 XT, so Navi 1x couldn't even theoretically truely compete in the high-end.

The transition from 7nm DUV to 7nm EUV alone is not going to be enough to stay competitive with high-end Turing, there have to be at least some decent improvements to the architecture. But for a theoretical 80 CU card, or something to be competitive with Nvidia's next gen, AMD would have to pull off some major improvements to their architecture.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 6, 2020)

efikkan said:


> I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but I wouldn't call what they're doing "milking the mid-range", they are moving small volumes compared to Nvidia in the mid-range.


but still very decent by their standards and with very good margins


efikkan said:


> But their "mistake" is that their focus is on making custom chips for the consoles, and then port this to PCs to make some extra bucks. In order to become competitive, they need to put desktop PCs first, and I don't think they are willing to do that.


that's my main problem with them too.
nvidia may charge a lot,but they're clearly pc oriented,and most (all) new technologies that made it into pc gaming,like variable refresh rate,ulmb,vxao,htfs,gpu based physx or recently rtx,dlss and vrs were pushed by nvidia not amd.

I think we're at a time when two upgrade paths are intertwining.
In the recent years gpu manufacturers have been pushing higher clocks,core counts and vram capacity with little to no improvements in the quality of the image we're getting except for higher resolution.Some peple like me are already caught up with performance a long time ago and want to see some changes to the quality too,while an even bigger group of people are mainly after gpu performance first since they're sitting on older cards.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 6, 2020)

efikkan said:


> But their "mistake" is that their focus is on making custom chips for the consoles, and then port this to PCs to make some extra bucks. In order to become competitive, they need to put desktop PCs first, and I don't think they are willing to do that.


I wouldn't call it a mistake. Consoles have a lot of potential in terms of sales and cash returns. I guess they have decided to get consoles first because it is more lucrative and not much of a competition for AMD. I'm sure when the consoles are sorted PC will get something new as well.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 6, 2020)

ratirt said:


> I guess they have decided to get consoles first because it is more lucrative


than what ?


----------



## medi01 (Feb 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> This is a GPU thread,Intel and epyc have nothing to do with it.


It clearly demonstrates AMD's capabilities.



cucker tarlson said:


> They're on 7 nm tsmc and new uarch,why dont they put up?


They are gradually rolling out superior products, starting with the  sure-bet-most-profitable.



cucker tarlson said:


> Cause of what I wrote before.They would lose to nvidias +$500 cards cause of lack of features,so they're happy to milk mid range.


That is one hell of a conjecture.
Are you from the same universe?
In our universe, a 2070 super, a 550mm2  13600M transistors card struggles with 10,300 million transistor 250mm2 5700XT.
Yeah, different process node, but wait, that number of transistors diff, even if you write off 8% of it to Ray Tracing lols, what are tehy? 

There is no fact at hand, that even remotely hints at AMD not being able to upset The Leather Man with bigger chips. Oh, and they don't need the biggest chips on the planet either.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 6, 2020)

medi01 said:


> It clearly demonstrates AMD's capabilities.


it clearly does not demonstrate nothing about their gpu division.
show me the clear link how a cpu architecture translates to a better gpu.


medi01 said:


> They are gradually rolling out superior products, starting with the  sure-bet-most-profitable.


well one navi 10 die really,then sliced into three cards,and that's about it.



medi01 said:


> In our universe, a 2070 super, a 550mm2  13600M transistors card struggles with 10,300 million transistor 250mm2 5700XT.



one line below



medi01 said:


> Yeah, different process node
> write off 8% of it to Ray Tracing



 


medi01 said:


> There is no fact at hand, that even remotely hints at AMD not being able to upset The Leather Man with bigger chips.


there's nothing that hints at them being able either.
and more importantly willing to.


----------



## medi01 (Feb 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> it clearly does not demonstrate nothing about their gpu division.
> show me the clear link how a cpu architecture translates to a better gpu.


Let's leave it at that.



cucker tarlson said:


>


I'll take it as "I can't make a coherent argument, so let me blow it  up". I hope you are ok.
With 8% figure I was being generous:








cucker tarlson said:


> there's nothing that hints at them being able either.


They've rolled out 2 times smaller chip with 30% smaller number of transistors and the same ballpark  performance. If that is not a hint enough, perhaps you need to do something about the green reality distortion field around you.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 6, 2020)

medi01 said:


> Let's leave it at that.
> 
> 
> I'll take it as "I can't make a coherent argument, so let me blow it  up". I hope you are ok.
> ...


tell me,in what "universe" do you compare die sizes of chips made on different nodes and with different hardware features but you don't compare efficiency.
tu106 is still 1.12x more efficient on an older node,tu104 1.25x more
and if rt cores alone are 6%,then adding tensor would add up to more than 8%








medi01 said:


> I'll take it as "I can't make a coherent argument, so let me blow it  up". I hope you are ok.


no,you can't.
you contradict yourself all the time



medi01 said:


> Let's leave it at that.


of course,there's nothing to be said about epyc vs intel here.
"with zen they took over intel,so they'll do the same with navi vs ampere" is a silly argument



medi01 said:


> They've rolled out 2 times smaller chip with 30% smaller number of transistors and the same ballpark  performance. If that is not a hint enough, perhaps you need to do something about the green reality distortion field around you.


but they can't match tu104 and tu102 with 25% worse efficiency like they did with navi 10 vs tu106,pretty easy to understand.
they'd probably need a card with a higher power conspumption than 2080ti to match the 2080.aib 5700xt's are already more power hubngry than both 2080 and 2080 super









here's an aib 2070 for comparison











efikkan said:


> The transition from 7nm DUV to 7nm EUV alone is not going to be enough to stay competitive with high-end Turing, there have to be at least some decent improvements to the architecture.


they'll be able to make a 2080 super without going above 280W for the aib cards,but that's about it.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> than what ?


You mean "then what"?
Then, they will hold hands in a circle around the fire, dance, sing songs, drink milk and eat cookies like you in your fantasy world. 

medi01 gave you a good example and procured arguments by the conclusion he's got. Funny though I got the same.
You instead jump from one thing to the other disregarding what the conversation is about. He mentioned die size and difference of the dies sizes between NV and AMD GPUs.
He didn't talk about efficiency that you have jumped to disregarding everything he said about size, transistor and performance wise. saying that efficiency is the variable determining possibility of bigger die is nuts.
The 7nmEUV will be more efficient and less power hungry. Depends how AMD is going to play this card though. 250mm2 and same performance with twice the size chip from NV's is impressive. If you think AMD can't go bigger you are a lost cause. Since AMD didn't release RDNA big navi, it doesn't mean it is not coming or that AMD couldn't do it. I already mentioned why but of course you disregarded what I said and changed the subject (classic). RDNA2 will be the BIG NAVI now. AMD's more than capable of doing this. How will this work with the 7nm EUV time will tell since we don't have any equivalent die size based on RDNA to have an idea. We can have only guesses.
BTW, the Intel mention, was to show you that nothing is certain and AMD can disrupt market with their products. If they did it in the CPU market (even though a lot said it is stupid and it won't happen) they may do it in GPU (even though you say it is stupid and won't happen). Ryzen and RDNA iterations are quite similar like a pattern but Ryzen started earlier. Priority I'd say. Just like the console market is a priority over PC at this moment.
So buckle up sit tight and wait because you are going for a crazy ride my friend. Sooner or later.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 6, 2020)

ratirt said:


> You mean "then what"?
> Then, they will hold hands in a circle around the fire, dance, sing songs, drink milk and eat cookies like you in your fantasy world.
> 
> medi01 gave you a good example and procured arguments by the conclusion he's got. Funny though I got the same.
> ...


no,I mean than what.
more lucrative than what.
you're making a comparison with no reference.

medi01 didn't talk about efficiency cause that's the elephant in the room he knew he couldn't touch,and got his chops busted again.amd can't compete with big turing even on 7nm when their 250mm cards break 250w,any other point is irrelevant including fanstasizing about die sizes.

tl,dr for the rest of your post.please write less but more fact less rumors and opinions.

the Intel mention was purely cause you have nothing else to cling to so you're quoting the example on how an incompetent company can lose performance crown in sereval years time.



ratirt said:


> Ryzen and RDNA iterations are quite similar like a pattern


how ?


----------



## ratirt (Feb 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> how ?


Brand new designs for starters. Starting from scratch designs. 


cucker tarlson said:


> no,I mean than what.
> more lucrative than what.


I see. Then you didn't read what I wrote. Than the PCs at this point. 


cucker tarlson said:


> medi01 didn't talk about efficiency cause that's the elephant in the room he knew he couldn't touch,and got his chops busted again.amd can't compete with big turing even on 7nm when their 250mm cards break 250w,any other point is irrelevant including fanstasizing about die sizes.


He didn't talk about efficiency, cause that is not defining the size of the chip that can be manufactured. 


cucker tarlson said:


> tl,dr for the rest of your post.please write less but more fact less rumors and opinions.


There are no facts cause these cards are not out yet. You need to understand the difference between rumors and having your conclusions. 
7nm EUV is a fact and will be more efficient than 7nm process. The performance is oscillating around 20% better. Considering the previous node advancements, the power efficiency reaches higher percentages than performance. Why I can't use this to say that RDNA2 will be more efficient and AMD will make RDNA2 Big Navi? 
Plus we don't know what the RDNA2 architecture will bring in terms of arch improvements because it is not out yet we can only base out conclusions on the RDNA Navi.


----------



## medi01 (Feb 6, 2020)

Intel's problems are not only architecture (although AMD's chiplet approach kicked their arse in a major way), it is also Fab advantage that came out of nowhere and is only growing, thank you TSMC.

AMD's weapons against NV are more limited, coming down to a 45% margin vs 60%, with plenty of room to harm The Leather Man.

Unless they pull "Chiplet Design 2, GPUs or Tears of the Leather Man", well, I don't see it happening.



cucker tarlson said:


> You compare die sizes of chips made on different nodes


Yep, that is why I've included number of transistors.



cucker tarlson said:


> and if rt cores alone are 6%,then adding tensor would add up to more than 8%


Does 2060 have em? Why? Even if you max that figure at 14%, it still doesn't cover 10 million vs 13 million transistor gap.



cucker tarlson said:


> 25% worse efficiency


Eh, whah?
Ah, figure rigging, hehe.



cucker tarlson said:


> 5700xt's are already more power hubngry than both 2080 and 2080 super


Nah. Stock thing is between 2080 and 2080s, and the former is what, 8% faster in TPU charts?
Anyhow, card pushed way up on clock-rates isn't indicative of actual perf/watt.

Even last minute OCed 5600XT is quite a bit "cooler" than a number of NV offerings:





How does 2080Ti handle "the heat"? Well, uh, doh, much larger die that runs at LOWER clock. Yay, that's cool ain't it?

The thought that AMD "cannot produce large chips" is... weird. 
I still wonder what are the missing "features" on AMD chips. Is it that wonderful G-Sync think, that adds "$200+ more expensive" feature to monitors?    Or is it that missing in action RT thing, found in under 1% of games, almost exclusively only if NV paid for it, that is anyhow switched off by most gamers due to performance hit? Let us know please.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 6, 2020)

medi01 said:


> How does 2080Ti handle "the heat"? Well, uh, doh, much larger die that runs at LOWER clock. Yay, that's cool ain't it?


If you consider the OC'ed versions of the 2080TI, you get closer to 400Watt consumption peak.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 6, 2020)

Waste of time.Efficiency charts at 4k are irrelevant to you,so you're bringing up 5600 xt efficiency at 1080p in a discussion about big dies.
Cards pushed to max clock rates (which is your definition of aib cards for some reason ) are irrelevant either.
Have fun boys waiting for that big navi then if you believe its gonna be that fantastic.


----------



## efikkan (Feb 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> In the recent years gpu manufacturers have been pushing higher clocks,core counts and vram capacity with little to no improvements in the quality of the image we're getting except for higher resolution.Some peple like me are already caught up with performance a long time ago and want to see some changes to the quality too,while an even bigger group of people are mainly after gpu performance first since they're sitting on older cards.


Higher resolution and higher refresh rates is still something, something that matters to many gamers. Fluid gaming is at least important to me.

But many games seems to demand more performance vs. what higher fidelity they offer in return. Some of this may be due to ever-increasing advanced lighting techniques, but most of it is due to mass produced "low quality" games.



ratirt said:


> I wouldn't call it a mistake. Consoles have a lot of potential in terms of sales and cash returns. I guess they have decided to get consoles first because it is more lucrative and not much of a competition for AMD. I'm sure when the consoles are sorted PC will get something new as well.


I did use quotes, didn't I? 
They chose custom chips for consoles as the priority because it's safe money, not because it's good money. But this strategy might face some competition from Intel in the long run.

My point is that in order for AMD to become competitive and catch up with Nvidia, they need to put PC first. What they could have done instead of their custom-first route is to make a good CPU (like they finally have) and a good GPU, and then just bundle it instead of customizing it heavily. But it's too late now…


----------



## ratirt (Feb 6, 2020)

efikkan said:


> My point is that in order for AMD to become competitive and catch up with Nvidia, they need to put PC first.


Everything has its timing. Guess PC time isn't up yet  Gotta wait a bit more for that. I don't think it is too late. The world isn't over yet


----------



## efikkan (Feb 6, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Everything has its timing. Guess PC time isn't up yet  Gotta wait a bit more for that. I don't think it is too late. The world isn't over yet


We're not running out of time, but Nvidia is marching ahead, so catching up is only going to get harder.


----------



## medi01 (Feb 6, 2020)

efikkan said:


> My point is that in order for AMD to become competitive and catch up with Nvidia,


Because 5600 or 5700 series are not competitive! Oh wait...




efikkan said:


> they need to put PC first. What they could have done instead of their custom-first route is to make a good CPU (like they finally have) and a good GPU, and then just bundle it instead of customizing it heavily. But it's too late now…


Then need to show commitment to the market that has basically saved them.
Besides, there nothing that hints at that console development is somehow harming "other" development. If anything, it's more R&D money for AMD.



efikkan said:


> We're not running out of time, but Nvidia is marching ahead, so catching up is only going to get harder.


I think I've heard that before., this narrative is sooo Vega times...
Vega => Navi jump was a major architectural step forward by AMD, they have shrunk chip by a third, switched to a cheaper mem while keeping the same performance.

There is a clear parity on transistor/perf side of things. NV might be doing power savings a bit better, that is pretty much the only gap that we could see when Ampere faces RDNA2. 

But when Ampere comes, you'll either see competing AMD cards, or The Leather Man going full greetard again. Either way, AMD would be fine. As for "bought by 1% or below" market of excessively expensive cards, from my POV it's a purely theoretical "harm green ego" thing, not something I would care about.


----------



## kapone32 (Feb 6, 2020)

Can we not all agree that we need a high end inexpensive card from AMD to bring prices back down from the stratosphere. As far as if they can or not no one knows what AMD is currently doing. They only thing we can say is that they released variants of Navi10 but their R&D GPU department has not given us any carrots on what they are currently working on. All we have to go on is Dr Su's words. It appears to me that the mitigating factor for GPUs seems to be clock and memory speed.


----------



## medi01 (Feb 6, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Can we not all agree that we need a high end inexpensive card from AMD to bring prices back down from the stratosphere.


You think AMD rolling out 2080Ti type card will somehow reduce pricing of mid/low end cards???


----------



## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

efikkan said:


> We're not running out of time, but Nvidia is marching ahead, so catching up is only going to get harder.


Yes it is marching ahead. AMD has plan so lets wait and see what AMD will do. Releasing something just because others are ahead to try catching up, rushing,  that would be a mistake. Intel was ahead too and look now. It took a bit of time but AMD managed. So, lets see what AMD will do in GPU department. It is not like NV is 10 gens away. I think AMD GPUs are more closer to NV than AMD's CPUs were with Intel's before ZEN.


medi01 said:


> You think AMD rolling out 2080Ti type card will somehow reduce pricing of mid/low end cards???


That depends. If AMD launches a card 2080 TI, with performance and efficient we may not see the drop. Unless AMD will be satisfied with the lower price they mark the card with. Seriously doubt that would happen. It may be lower but it wont bring 2080 TI's price to $600 or even $800. On the other hand if the performance is there but the efficiency lacks a bit. It may happen. That would also depend on how much manufacturing of the card will cost and that is the major factor for the price point here.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Yes it is marching ahead. AMD has plan so lets wait and see what AMD will do. Releasing something just because others are ahead to try catching up, rushing,  that would be a mistake. Intel was ahead too and look now. It took a bit of time but AMD managed. So, lets see what AMD will do in GPU department. It is not like NV is 10 gens away. I think AMD GPUs are more closer to NV than AMD's CPUs were with Intel's before ZEN.
> 
> That depends. If AMD launches a card 2080 TI, with performance and efficient we may not see the drop. Unless AMD will be satisfied with the lower price they mark the card with. Seriously doubt that would happen. It may be lower but it wont bring 2080 TI's price to $600 or even $800. On the other hand if the performance is there but the efficiency lacks a bit. It may happen. That would also depend on how much manufacturing of the card will cost and that is the major factor for the price point here.


they have a plan to but they have to wait cause catching up now is a mistake ?
how about catching up last year ?
for amd to make faster card would be a mistake,although they totally absolutely could  things the red fanbase say and somehow Im not surprised that's what the gpu situation looks like now



medi01 said:


> You think AMD rolling out 2080Ti type card will somehow reduce pricing of mid/low end cards???


no cause they'd sell it at $900


----------



## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> they have a plan to but they have to wait cause catching up now is a mistake ?
> how about catching up last year ?
> for amd to make faster card would be a mistake,although they totally absolutely could  things the red fanbase say and somehow Im not surprised that's what the gpu situation looks like now


Listen. I understand  you have problems with ego and attitude. You are so "smart" you don't know which way is up. If you don't get it believe me nobody will explain nor try to convince you. I don't care about last year. AMD doesn't either. Mistake would be to release a card that is not up for the task and that is why you didn't get it last year. Simple?


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Listen. I understand  you have problems with ego and attitude. You are so "smart" you don't know which way is up. If you don't get it believe me nobody will explain nor try to convince you. I don't care about last year. AMD doesn't either. Mistake would be to release *a card that is not up for the task* and that is why you didn't get it last year. Simple?


why should it be not up for the task though ?


----------



## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> why should it be not up for the task though ?


How the hell am I supposed to know that? Do you see a new AMD card? No. Conclusions why it hasn't been released? Maybe you have facts please share.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> How the hell am I supposed to know that? Do you see a new AMD card? No. Conclusions why it hasn't been released? Maybe you have facts please share.


but that's what I'm talking about since the beginning.
if they had one in the making and it was good,we would have got it already.

they had 7nm on bigger cards since radeon 7,new architecture,new memory in good supply.there's nothing preventing them.they just have nothing going on and try to feed us the usual weak cliches.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> but that's what I'm talking about since the beginning.
> if they had one in the making and it was good,we would have got it already.
> 
> they had 7nm on bigger cards since radeon 7,new architecture,new memory in good supply.there's nothing preventing them.they just have nothing going on and try to feed us the usual weak cliches.


OMG. I can't believe we are agreeing on something. yes. That is what I think as well. If AMD had one they would have released it. Maybe they had one but decided not too. remember Radeon 7 right. Was that a good card? Yes as a workstation. For gaming (as high end) it was meh. I'm 100% sure AMD tried to make a big navi with RDNA and maybe AMD manufactured one but decided not to release to avoid (maybe) radeon VII's mistake or simply it was not ready or up for the task(task meaning compete on a satisfying lvl with NV cards). It was expensive with all the HBM2 memory and stuff.

If they have or not, is your guess. We will see in time. It was said 2020 new card. Lets see what AMD has up its sleeves.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> OMG. I can't believe we are agreeing on something. yes. That is what I think as well. If AMD had one they would have released it. Maybe they had one but decided not too. remember Radeon 7 right. Was that a good card? Yes as a workstation. For gaming (as high end) it was meh. I'm 100% sure AMD tried to make a big navi with RDNA and maybe AMD manufactured one but decided not to release to avoid (maybe) radeon VII's mistake or simply it was not ready or up for the task(task meaning compete on a satisfying lvl with NV cards). It was expensive with all the HBM2 memory and stuff.
> 
> If they have or not, is your guess. We will see in time. It was said 2020 new card. Lets see what AMD has up its sleeves.


well it was marketed as gaming too









						AMD Surprises At CES 2019
					

The last time that AMD took the big stage in Las Vegas was back in 2002,  Patrick Moorhead was excited to see what CEO Lisa Su had up her sleeves to commemorate the company’s return to the big stage.




					www.forbes.com
				




it was a good card imo,just sucks they didn't allow aib versions and e.g. a cheaper 12gb version


----------



## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> well it was marketed as gaming too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it was marketed as that but come on. You and I know better. Derivative from a workstations graphics just to have something to compete with NV. Now, the 5700xt is trading blows with R7 in some games.
For gaming, It wasn't that great considering the price you had to pay for it. I was going for one but at the last time I decided not to buy it. Went Vega 64.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Yes it was marketed as that but come on. You and I know better. Derivative from a workstations graphics just to have something to compete with NV. Now, the 5700xt is trading blows with R7 in some games.
> For gaming, It wasn't that great considering the price you had to pay for it. I was going for one but at the last time I decided not to buy it. Went Vega 64.


for 4k ?


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> for 4k ?


I play 4k with Vega 64. Well not all games can run 4k 60FPS but there are titles that Vega can handle no problem. Unless you are asking about something else?


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

I ditched gtx1080 for 1440p cause it was starting to lack performance in some scenarios


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I ditched gtx1080 for 1440p cause it was starting to lack performance in some scenarios


I switch to 1440p in some games as well. Divinity2 original sin is one of them. I'm getting a new GPU for sure but I need to wait a bit longer. Besides, I play less and less now. Got 2 other babies to take care of. My threadrippers 3970X. Been racking my brain with what else needs to improved and since this is new stuff, it is hard to find parts that are up my alley. 

You specs says 2070S. That should be OK with a large number of games games running 4k?


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> I switch to 1440p in some games as well. Divinity2 original sin is one of them. I'm getting a new GPU for sure but I need to wait a bit longer. Besides, I play less and less now. Got 2 other babies to take care of. My threadrippers 3970X. Been racking my brain with what else needs to improved and since this is new stuff, it is hard to find parts that are up my alley.
> 
> You specs says 2070S. That should be OK with a large number of games games running 4k?


no idea,was never interested in 4k gaming.
once I'm at 1440p on a desktop monitor I wanna get into higher settings not more pixels.


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> no idea,was never interested in 4k gaming.
> once I'm at 1440p on a desktop monitor I wanna get into higher settings not more pixels.


Well if I can't go 4k max or at least high settings, I dial down to 1440p. 
I like 4k maxed out. It looks great.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Well if I can't go 4k max or at least high settings, I dial down to 1440p.
> I like 4k maxed out. It looks great.


I prefer 1440p on a 24" screen,looks sharp as hell and it's pretty easy to get tremendous framerates on a 1080Ti/2070S class card


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I prefer 1440p on a 24" screen,looks sharp as hell and it's pretty easy to get tremendous framerates on a 1080Ti/2070S class card


Oh, so you are one of those high refresh rate dudes? I'm more 4k dude. 

maybe lets get back to the topic.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Oh, so you are one of those high refresh rate dudes? I'm more 4k dude.
> 
> maybe lets get back to the topic.


4k on a desktop screen is a gimmick imo,huge performance hit for little tangible returns.
would rather have better shadows for example.
the games are getting prettier but the prettier they get,the more they expose how traditional shadows and light just fall more and more behind the curve.


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> 4k on a desktop screen is a gimmick imo,huge performance hit for little tangible returns.
> would rather have better shadows for example.
> the games are getting prettier but the prettier they get,the more they expose how traditional shadows and light just fall more and more behind the curve.


Well, I've got very good eyes and I really do see the difference. It was a love from the first sight with 4k for me.  What can I tell you. 4k for me please.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

I do too.the fact that I see it doesn't mean I need it or want it.
Enough to see the returns from going 4k on a desktop screen provides laugably low returns in comaprison to the performance hit,which is usually getting your fps havled vs 1440p
40 fps at 4k or 80 fps at 1440p ? no contest for me.


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I do too.the fact that I see it doesn't mean I need it or want it.
> Enough to see the returns from going 4k on a desktop screen provides laugably low returns in comaprison to the performance hit,which is usually getting your fps havled vs 1440p
> 40 fps at 4k or 80 fps at 1440p ? no contest for me.


Like I said. If 4k is a no go for my card I will dial down the resolution. despite the FPS impact, I like the way 4k looks and I want to play with this resolution. Lets say that is my goal for 2020 with a new GPU.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Like I said. If 4k is a no go for my card I will dial down the resolution. despite the FPS impact, I like the way 4k looks and I want to play with this resolution. Lets say that is my goal for 2020 with a new GPU.


to play at 60 ? gonna need a lot.
2x V64 for sure unless you'll be getting a new card for the games you alreay have only.Then you might only need something 40% faster like 2080.
Games are getting prettier but more demanding at the same timme too.A 2016 card like gtx1080 is barely enough for 1440p these days.


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> to play at 60 ? gonna need a lot.
> 2x V64 for sure unless you'll be getting a new card for the games you alreay have only.Then you might only need something 40% faster like 2080.
> Games are getting prettier but more demanding at the same timme too.A 2016 card like gtx1080 is barely enough for 1440p these days.


Yes but you are talking about the newest games. The top notch of the performance eaters. 2x Vega 64. You know that is not much of an option. Never been a huge fan of Xfire or SLI. I will wait and get a decent GPU sooner or later.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Yes but you are talking about the newest games. The top notch of the performance eaters. 2x Vega 64. You know that is not much of an option. Never been a huge fan of Xfire or SLI. I will wait and get a decent GPU sooner or later.


I mean single card with 2x vega 64 pefrormance like 2080Ti


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I mean single card with 2x vega 64 pefrormance like 2080Ti


Yes exactly. That is why I'm going to wait


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Yes exactly. That is why I'm going to wait


for amd card to match 2080Ti ? 2021.


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> for amd card to match 2080Ti ? 2021.


We had that conversation. Something is coming 2020 I can afford to wait. If it turns out not so good I can go other vendors.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Something is coming 2020


rdna1 refresh
lisa su said it herself

is it gonna disrupt 4k gaming ? for someone who's still on vega for 4k yes.


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## ratirt (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> rdna1 refresh
> lisa su said it herself
> 
> is it gonna disrupt 4k gaming ? for someone who's still on vega for 4k yes.


So I've got nothing to worry about  Worth to wait.

About that refresh. Since you are very eager to point it out. 
This is what Lisa Su said about RDNA2. 

"In 2019, we launched our new architecture in GPUs, it's the RDNA architecture, and that was the Navi based products. You should expect that those will be refreshed in 2020 - and we'll have a next generation RDNA architecture that will be part of our 2020 lineup. So we're pretty excited about that, and we'll talk more about that at our financial analyst day. On the data centre GPU side, you should also expect that we'll have some new products in the second half of this year."


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## medi01 (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> rdna1 refresh


Oh, dear god. I love we are not discussing "missing features", cough.

For the "why wouldn't they do it NOW", hell,* why would they do it NOW*?
GPUs released so far are on 7nm DUV process, which is:
a) incompatible
b) quite inferior

to 7nm EUV. Making major R&D on DUV made no sense and EUV wasn't there yet.

Now, would they roll out 350-400mm-ish chip in 2020? Maybe, but certainly not in Jan.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 7, 2020)

medi01 said:


> Oh, dear god. I love we are not discussing "missing features", cough.
> 
> For the "why wouldn't they do it NOW", hell,* why would they do it NOW*?
> GPUs released so far are on 7nm DUV process, which is:
> ...


incompatible with what ?


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## medi01 (Feb 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> incompatible with what ?


7nm DUV.


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## ratirt (Feb 8, 2020)

medi01 said:


> 7nm DUV.


Out of curiosity. Why would it be incompatible? I'm kinda stomped because I think that isn't right.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 8, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Out of curiosity. Why would it be incompatible? I'm kinda stomped because I think that isn't right.


leave it be.
it's like pigeon chess.


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## ratirt (Feb 8, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> leave it be.
> it's like pigeon chess.


No it isn't. if i don't know something i wish to know cause i might have missed it.


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## efikkan (Feb 8, 2020)

I don't get the point of this bickering.
Of course 7nm DUV => 7nm EUV requires some adjustments and a new tapeout, but the conversion shouldn't be hard.
And remember whatever improvements 7nm EUV will give, Nvidia get those too.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 8, 2020)

efikkan said:


> I don't get the point of this bickering.
> Of course 7nm DUV => 7nm EUV requires some adjustments and a new tapeout, but the conversion shouldn't be hard.
> And remember whatever improvements 7nm EUV will give, Nvidia get those too.


I think they're on samsung 7nm euv low power node


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## efikkan (Feb 8, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I think they're on samsung 7nm euv low power node


I believe some Nvidia official said the larger volume will be on TSMC. And I've not seen evidence yet of a Samsung node capable of ~250W chips, a low power node is not capable of that.
I would expect bigger dies on TSMC and smaller ones on Samsung.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 8, 2020)

efikkan said:


> I believe some Nvidia official said the larger volume will be on TSMC. And I've not seen evidence yet of a Samsung node capable of ~250W chips, a low power node is not capable of that.
> I would expect bigger dies on TSMC and smaller ones on Samsung.


ga106 and even 104/103 could well be sub 200w cards.


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## efikkan (Feb 8, 2020)

I'll let Nvidia's engineers figure out where the sweet-spot is. But usually "low power" nodes are optimized for chips under 50W.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 8, 2020)

efikkan said:


> I'll let Nvidia's engineers figure out where the sweet-spot is. But usually "low power" nodes are optimized for chips under 50W.


maybe pci-e powered cards only
or mx gpus


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## medi01 (Feb 8, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Out of curiosity. Why would it be incompatible? I'm kinda stomped because I think that isn't right.



My knowledge in the area is too limited to answer this question, but that's what I got from Anand's article. Perhaps it has something to do with relative sizing of elements. I also couldn't find number of layers supported by N7 (non plus):








						TSMC Reveals 6 nm Process Technology: 7 nm with Higher Transistor Density
					






					www.anandtech.com
				




N7 (7nm DUV) is not compatible with N7+ (7nm EUV).
However, it is compatible with N6 (6nm EUV), but its mass production, according to TSMC, is expected in 2021.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 8, 2020)

medi01 said:


> My knowledge in the area is too limited to answer this question, but that's what I got from Anand's article. Perhaps it has something to do with relative sizing of elements. I also couldn't find number of layers supported by N7 (non plus):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


but you're talking node design,not gpu design


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## medi01 (Feb 8, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> but you're talking node design,not gpu design


You said something... elusive....


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 8, 2020)

medi01 said:


> You said something... elusive....


I meant they can make a 350mm navi on rdna1 and 7nm duv now if they wanted to,but that would really be pushing it on power draw side.


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## medi01 (Feb 9, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I meant they can make a 350mm navi on rdna1 and 7nm duv now if they wanted to,but that would really be pushing it on power draw side.



7nm DUV is inferior to 7nm EUV (20% worse power consumption AND worse density at the same time).
So it would be a very short lived product, that would make sense ONLY if it was really really chip to make and could be pulled off quickly.
Two very big IFs.
Also questionable on the PR side of things.
And when product would be out, people would anyway wait for Ampere first.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 9, 2020)

medi01 said:


> 7nm DUV is inferior to 7nm EUV (20% worse power consumption AND worse density at the same time).
> So it would be a very short lived product, that would make sense ONLY if it was really really chip to make and could be pulled off quickly.
> Two very big IFs.
> Also questionable on the PR side of things.
> And when product would be out, people would anyway wait for Ampere first.


true
though it's rather sad amd are waiting for 7nm euv to compete with tu104

looks like both companies are running independent schedeules,competing mostly with their own products.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> true
> though it's rather sad amd are waiting for 7nm euv to compete with tu104
> 
> looks like both companies are running independent schedeules,competing mostly with their own products.


it's not sad. Maybe disappointing a little depends how you look at it. What would you do if this was your only way to compete? It is better to wait and get something good enough instead making a mistake that may trash the reputation to bits. I think AMD is doing the right thing. Besides, whats the point of releasing something and spend money on it when you know you can have something better in few/several months. Especially if NV is releasing new card which will be faster. Better to focus on this one than dwell in the past gens just to release something. Skip, forget, move on.


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## cucker tarlson (Feb 10, 2020)

ratirt said:


> it's not sad. Maybe disappointing a little depends how you look at it. What would you do if this was your only way to compete? It is better to wait and get something good enough instead making a mistake that may trash the reputation to bits. I think AMD is doing the right thing. Besides, whats the point of releasing something and spend money on it when you know you can have something better in few/several months. Especially if NV is releasing new card which will be faster. Better to focus on this one than dwell in the past gens just to release something. Skip, forget, move on.


Sad from consumers perspective.


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## John Naylor (Feb 10, 2020)

I never would have imagined the tech world following the political journalists ... while CUDA can serve you will in certain apps ... I'm not interested in what a new card "cuda" done,  could do, might do, only what it was proved to be capable of ... we don't need imagined facts to go with alternative facts.  It's just nerd porn. We have about as much of a chance seeing what is projected in these articles "in real life" as we do a playboy centerfold in real life.

I really don't care how many cores, what size in nm or anythung else.  If a CPU is 7nm / 16 cores and it can't go as fast as 14nm 8 core CPU in the applications I use, i don't want it.  With a  GFX card, don't care about any of the specs other than how fast it runs apps, how hot, how noisy and how much power.  The rest is irrelevant.  Video editing benefits from more cores ....  so if a 12 core AMD  CPU is 10% slower than an 8 core Intel CPU, why would i want the one w/ more cores when running Photoshop ?

PCs are a tool ... not a statement of who we are.   Buying a pair of Air Jordans, isn't going to make you a NBA player.  If you are choosing a PC component by any other criteria than how well it performs, and then only the apps you actually will use, you're doing it wrong.


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## Bronan (Feb 14, 2020)

Anymal said:


> Turing will be discounted though. 2070super for 350eur, njami!


Still too much for my taste, these ampere seem to be pro gpu only for now.
However we will see what they have cooked up, i would not be surprised that its gonna cost 2 arms and a leg to get them.
So no sale to me for sure, i no longer want to spend a small fortune into any gpu ever again.
Because the chance is high that within 6 months they release a faster one pretty quick
Especially if amd is able to compete, but time will tell what happens if intel does start making similar products


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