# Huzzah! Gamers Nexus has fixed CPU cooler reviews and made all other web site reviews incorrect!



## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

Link to article below as well as the half hour video.  It's an impressive feat the amount of times Steve pats himself on the back in video for creating a test procedure that "makes" all other test procedures obsolete and or incorrect.  









						Why Most Cooler Tests Are Flawed: CPU Cooler Testing Methodology
					

The biggest rule in testing coolers is to never trust anything: Don’t trust the numbers, don’t trust the software, don’t trust firmware, and don’t trust the test bench. Every step of the way is a trap lying in wait to sabotage data accuracy. -




					www.gamersnexus.net


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## sneekypeet (Mar 6, 2020)

Not sure how testing a coolers efficiency is a real world result for the masses, but if he wants to play god who am I to argue.


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## Punx223 (Mar 6, 2020)

Yes, let's swap the fans so that the performance of the cooler does not represent what the mass amount of users will experience with a cooler (using the included fans)

How many people outside of our enthusiasts' niche swap every single cooler fan to the specific Noctua model he uses?


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2020)

I saw this earlier and need to sit down and watch the video...I fear some of this is complete BS though.




sneekypeet said:


> but if he wants to play god who am I to argue.


Uhh, that is Tech Jesus, not God...


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## kapone32 (Mar 6, 2020)

This was a video to try to establish exactly what? Is there an agreed to protocol on how coolers are tested?


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## sneekypeet (Mar 6, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> I saw this earlier and need to sit down and watch the video...I fear some of this is complete BS though.
> 
> 
> Uhh, that is Tech Jesus, not God...


I read it....I'm guessing it's a huge time saver as I only had to read for a couple minutes to get the layout.

@kapone32 there is not, just that some try to mimic manufacturer testing as much as they can. Some wander a bit, some plain ass dont care.


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## kapone32 (Mar 6, 2020)

Punx223 said:


> Yes, let's swap the fans so that the performance of the cooler does not represent what the mass amount of users will experience with a cooler (using the included fans)
> 
> How many people outside of our enthusiasts' niche swap every single cooler fan to the specific Noctua model he uses?



Us Enthusiasts would just buy a Noctua cooler to begin with.


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## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

Punx223 said:


> Yes, let's swap the fans so that the performance of the cooler does not represent what the mass amount of users will experience with a cooler (using the included fans)
> 
> How many people outside of our enthusiasts' niche swap every single cooler fan to the specific Noctua model he uses?


Some tech journalists I know did. It is a stupid ordeal when you consider that is not how most people will use them. Ninja 5 for instance is great when you max out fans, however it invalidates any claim for silent operation in that circumstance.


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## TheLostSwede (Mar 6, 2020)

Normally I consider their content as something that might be worthwhile looking at when they do in-depth testing, but this...


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## Punx223 (Mar 6, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Some tech journalists I know did. It is a stupid ordeal when you consider that is not how most people will use them. Ninja 5, for instance, is great when you max out fans, however, it invalidates any claim for silent operation in that circumstance.


That's kind of my point, I do think that to change chassis or cooler fans for "noise normalized thermals" is more of an attempt to justify that "my testing is special" rather than something that most real users will experience.

If you change the entire properties of a product by swapping parts, you nullify the experience for most users. Most users use what comes in the chassis or augment it with additional fans, or what have you.


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> Not sure how testing a coolers efficiency is a real world result for the masses, but if he wants to play god who am I to argue.



I think the beauty of having so many tests by different people is not necessarily an ability to cherry pick one result and say "here's proof that mine is better then yours" but rather get a sense of how something may work across various set ups.  None of us have the exact same PC and to come out and say all other test methods are wrong only believe mine is in incorrect procedure.  That said, he pulled something similar with CPU and GPU testing so I can't be surprised.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

This is stupid. It completely invalidates the actual results for all but a very few use cases.

There's also the very real impact of matching a fan to the cooler design.

It won't help him remain relevant this testing I think.


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## R0H1T (Mar 6, 2020)

Well that's what *YT* will do to you, not a good thing I must say!


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## sneekypeet (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> I think the beauty of having so many tests by different people is not necessarily an ability to cherry pick one result and say "here's proof that mine is better then yours" but rather get a sense of how something may work across various set ups.  None of us have the exact same PC and to come out and say all other test methods are wrong only believe mine is in incorrect procedure.  That said, he pulled something similar with CPU and GPU testing so I can't be surprised.


 
I agree that the masses should read more than one review. Always! However, these are not performance reviews, so all you can gather is that cooler A is more efficient than cooler B, and only while using a specific fan, not what comes in the box.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

R0H1T said:


> Well that's what *YT* will do to you, not a good thing I must say!



It's like Linus says you make a choice to either sell out and get the big money or you never really make it big.



sneekypeet said:


> I agree that the masses should read more than one review. Always! However, these are not performance reviews, so all you can gather is that cooler A is more efficient than cooler B, and only while using a specific fan, not what comes in the box.



So many variables just in fans alone.


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## kapone32 (Mar 6, 2020)

It has been my thought process that fans are the mitigating factor for any cooler. Whether it is air and AIO or a full loop the fan selection is tantamount. Usually though most users only replace fans based on noise.


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> It's like Linus says you make a choice to either sell out and get the big money or you never really make it big.
> So many variables just in fans alone.



GN made that jump a while ago but I don't recall Linus ever saying that (I'm not doubting he did say it)


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## sneekypeet (Mar 6, 2020)

Thing is with using the same fan you run into issues as well. Fans slow over time from wear, dust build up, etc. Then, let's say you have a huge pile of these fans, not all are the same performance wise, and is why manufacturers sell fans with a plus/minus notation on the RPM.

In essence I feel he painted himself into a corner with more variables than he was trying to eliminate.


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## R0H1T (Mar 6, 2020)

Meh, just remember this one


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## Xzibit (Mar 6, 2020)

Didn't some old websites test like this before. I remember back when Zalman and Cougar were big in CPU Heatsinks some sites used to test with the heater only. I cant recall now or if they are still around.


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## Punx223 (Mar 6, 2020)

This is the MEME that comes to mind when I saw this vid.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 6, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Didn't some old websites test like this before. I remember back when Zalman and Cougar were big in CPU Heatsinks some sites used to test with the heater only. I cant recall now or if they are still around.



TweakTown used to use a TEC (in a 40-degree hot-box) to apply load. Was never a fan  but I took over from another reviewer and was asked to keep it. I loved the day that TEC died and I was able to move to system testing instead!


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 6, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Us Enthusiasts would just buy a Noctua cooler to begin with.


Um....no.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> GN made that jump a while ago but I don't recall Linus ever saying that (I'm not doubting he did say it)



He talked about it in a few places. The most recent was his 10 million sub video. About the decision to align himself with what would get him the largest audience.

I know he has and he's been on a downward spiral. I wonder if he's started to see the numbers slip and he's ratcheting it up even more.



sneekypeet said:


> Thing is with using the same fan you run into issues as well. Fans slow over time from wear, dust build up, etc. Then, let's say you have a huge pile of these fans, not all are the same performance wise, and is why manufacturers sell fans with a plus/minus notation on the RPM.
> 
> In essence I feel he painted himself into a corner with more variables than he was trying to eliminate.



I was hoping someone would point this out. It's a greased slope into a very dark rabbit hole.


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## basco (Mar 6, 2020)

starting a video with :
most people don´t know a fraction of flaws in their own data

and if someone thinks linus is a tech guy plz look again at his videos( i am not saying he is not a smart businessman )


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 6, 2020)

Punx223 said:


> Yes, let's swap the fans so that the performance of the cooler does not represent what the mass amount of users will experience with a cooler (using the included fans)
> 
> How many people outside of our enthusiasts' niche swap every single cooler fan to the specific Noctua model he uses?



I dont need to, don't care to.

Thermalright, Scythe, BeQuiet all make exceptional coolers.


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## wolar (Mar 6, 2020)

I disagree with some here, testers shouldn't try to mimic average user cases, they should try to normalize their testing as much as possible so that the results actually mean something.
If you care that much on what you will experience buying that cooler then based off of your case, airflow, location, humidity, temperature conduct your own research.

Also, why are mid to high end coolers being sold as all in one to this date? Why not sell the heatsink and the fan separate?


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2020)

Punx223 said:


> Yes, let's swap the fans so that the performance of the cooler does not represent what the mass amount of users will experience with a cooler (using the included fans)
> 
> How many people outside of our enthusiasts' niche swap every single cooler fan to the specific Noctua model he uses?


This. You test performance out of the box as that is how the overwhelming majority use it. Do some people replace fans? Absolutely... however, performance will vary with each different fan so to test like that... doesn't make sense as it alienates the majority.


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## Punx223 (Mar 6, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> This. You test performance out of the box as that is how the overwhelming majority use it. Do some people replace fans? Absolutely... however, performance will vary with each different fan so to test like that... doesn't make sense as it alienates the majority.


This is exactly what I was trying to say in a less than eloquent manner.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

basco said:


> starting a video with :
> most people don´t know a fraction of flaws in their own data
> 
> and if someone thinks linus is a tech guy plz look again at his videos( i am not saying he is not a smart businessman )



Linus is a Tech guy, he just puts on an alter when he does LTT.

You get glimpses of what he's really like. It's actually why I have a hard time with his videos, because he seems fake to me and it's true that he often is.

It's like the reviews on the front page, they are often written by incredibly knowledgable and very tech literate people. They have to curb that though to make the reviews approachable while still being technically sound.


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## basco (Mar 6, 2020)

you do know him in person?
so it´s your outcome from videos what ya think about him.

sorry i am derailing the thread

tell me if dean martin is really drunk or not: he said if i am not talking like this people dont like me:


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

basco said:


> you do know him in person?
> so it´s your outcome from videos what ya think about him.
> 
> sorry i am derailing the thread
> ...



I dealt with him when he was still working at NCIX. That's as close as I ever got and likely will.

Linus could be wearing a dozen different masks but you don't do what he does without at least a little enthusiasm and love of tech.

Just like with Dean Martin, the Linus that's a YT heavyweight is an act, that the masses love and he's very conscious of it I suspect.


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## sepheronx (Mar 6, 2020)

basco said:


> you do know him in person?
> so it´s your outcome from videos what ya think about him.
> 
> sorry i am derailing the thread
> ...



I met him once when he worked for NCIX.  I talked with him via an email regarding a situation I dealt with an order from the company.

He is a nice guy and very knowledgeable obviously.  When he had his videos from NCIX he did a good job and was informative

Its just that well, he followed the money.  I cant blame him.  If he still lives in Vancouver which I think he does, its so stupid expensive to live there, so taking the money only makes sense in that regard to survive.  If he was doing this as a fun side thing, then I can question it more.  But I also lived in Vancouver and well, I would probably sell out rather quickly to just pay off my house....



gamefoo21 said:


> I dealt with him when he was still working at NCIX. That's as close as I ever got and likely will.
> 
> Linus could be wearing a dozen different masks but you don't do what he does without at least a little enthusiasm and love of tech.



Wow, posted pretty much same time.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> ....
> Wow, posted pretty much same time.



LoL we really did, it was kinda spooky how I had a reply notification as soon as the page rendered!

Spooky!


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## freeagent (Mar 6, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Us Enthusiasts would just buy a Noctua cooler to begin with.



Over priced, and definitely over hyped.


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## R0H1T (Mar 6, 2020)

And also very well supported, when was the last time any other cooler maker gave you free mounting kits even when the warranty (6yrs btw) of your product was over?


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## Vayra86 (Mar 6, 2020)

See, Steve is just like every other Tuber, its a race for clicks.

Steve, welcone to my shitlist. Well played kid. Another confirmation I will resort to written reviews.

Deep down we all know its just a matter of time with these media.



R0H1T said:


> And also very well supported, when was the last time any other cooler maker gave you free mounting kits even when the warranty (6yrs btw) of your product was over?



With Noctua margins (zero design r&d over a decade) why expect less? Its the USP they have... Quality and service. But you pay for it in advance. Not bad but lets call it what it is...



EarthDog said:


> This. You test performance out of the box as that is how the overwhelming majority use it. Do some people replace fans? Absolutely... however, performance will vary with each different fan so to test like that... doesn't make sense as it alienates the majority.



Exactly. /thread and /Steve


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

R0H1T said:


> And also very well supported, when was the last time any other cooler maker gave you free mounting kits even when the warranty (6yrs btw) of your product was over?



Thermalright sold me an upgraded mount for my True-120 that supports 1151 and tossed in a bunch of free cpu package brackets...


That's pretty close... I think the mounts support AM4 too.

How old is the TRUE again? Heh

Noctua is a great company though.


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## R0H1T (Mar 6, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> zero design r&d over a decade


Well that's a stretch, you're basically saying they've done nothing in the 2010's which is frankly BS. By the same token the competitors have been fleecing their customers as well haven't they, how many re-spins of CM's 212 we've had in the past 5 years alone?


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 6, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Linus is a Tech guy, he just puts on an alter when he does LTT.
> 
> You get glimpses of what he's really like. It's actually why I have a hard time with his videos, because he seems fake to me and it's true that he often is.
> 
> It's like the reviews on the front page, they are often written by incredibly knowledgable and very tech literate people. They have to curb that though to make the reviews approachable while still being technically sound.



He is fake.



Vayra86 said:


> See, Steve is just like every other Tuber, its a race for clicks.
> 
> Steve, welcone to my shitlist. Well played kid. Another confirmation I will resort to written reviews.
> 
> ...



Only card disassembly is worthwhile


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> See, Steve is just like every other Tuber, its a race for clicks.
> 
> Steve, welcone to my shitlist. Well played kid. Another confirmation I will resort to written reviews.
> 
> ...



Careful, the Inquisition was dispatched for me for suggesting such things.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 6, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> TweakTown used to use a TEC (in a 40-degree hot-box) to apply load. Was never a fan  but I took over from another reviewer and was asked to keep it. I loved the day that TEC died and I was able to move to system testing instead!


you and me both i followed your reviews back then and we actually had a pm convo over the TEC etc. Long time ago now but glad to see it dead too sure its a valid way to test but it really didn't reflect the real world.



EarthDog said:


> This. You test performance out of the box as that is how the overwhelming majority use it. Do some people replace fans? Absolutely... however, performance will vary with each different fan so to test like that... doesn't make sense as it alienates the majority.





Punx223 said:


> This is exactly what I was trying to say in a less than eloquent manner.


Basically thats always been my line of thinking. Even so, the number of PMs and emails i get asking for normalized fan testing is pretty hilarious so i guess Steve will earn those clicks lol.

But yeah i watched the video and all i could do was face palm the majority of the time.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> you and me both i followed your reviews back then and we actually had a pm convo over the TEC etc. Long time ago now but glad to see it dead too sure its a valid way to test but it really didn't reflect the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was never a fan of the TEC testing, it doesn't represent actual heat loading and the inherent variablity that comes from silicon actually drawing power.

One of the biggest issues I had in debating how to test coolers was using a lapped or CNC IHS, because of the variability in them sucks.

But most coolers have a convex bottom to try and mate with the average IHS curve. Though it's got to be a monster compromise when you consider testing across platforms and even generations.

I've got a CNC IHS for my Intel, that I've been debating trying just to see how it affects the results.

One thing that I do 'cheat' from the average on is I use a package brace, because how many coolers blow the mounting pressure and weight limits on 1151 all to hell. IIRC spec is 400 grams of mass and 0-32psi of cooler mounting pressure.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 6, 2020)

DoE developed a far better testing procedure than GamersNexus is talking about.  Basically, eliminate all variables:
1) Use a Peltier rated for a fixed wattage (e.g. 100, 150, or 200w)
2) Use a single fan with constant voltage (even on designs meant for 2, 3, or 4 fans)
3) place a thermal sensor sandwiched between the two in a constant thermal interface material
This test procedure results in discovering what heatsink is the best.

Further, similarly isolated testing can be used to discover which fan model is best for cooling said heatsink.


But, this is pointless.  People use the whole assembly as it ships.  There's no reason to change anything.  Test the products as they are, like most HSF reviews do.


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> its a race for clicks.



OK, I looked at your post real quick on my phone and at first glance the "c" and "l" of clicks looked like a "d"....


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## Vayra86 (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> OK, I looked at your post real quick on my phone and at first glance the "c" and "l" of clicks looked like a "d"....



Gives clickbait a whole other me-too eehrm meaning, too!

Ill see myself out



R0H1T said:


> Well that's a stretch, you're basically saying they've done nothing in the 2010's which is frankly BS. By the same token the competitors have been fleecing their customers as well haven't they, how many re-spins of CM's 212 we've had in the past 5 years alone?



Yet a 212 competes on price, and a Noctua does not.


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Even so, the number of PMs and emails i get asking for normalized fan testing is pretty hilarious so i guess Steve will earn those clicks lol.



I can understand "normalized" testing for PC cases since most people will add at least one more fan to their case (if not more) but it makes little sense for coolers.  You take something like a Scythe Fuma 2 which sells for $60 and decide that the Noctua NF-A12 is your standardized fan.  You are now testing a $120 set up for S!@# and giggles because no one is likely going to use it.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 6, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Careful, the Inquisition was dispatched for me for suggesting such things.



Nothing is holy. Noctua had been very lazy. And why not, they have a great product that withstands the test of time, poop color or not!


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Nothing is holy. Noctua had been very lazy. And why not, they have a great product that withstands the test of time, poop color or not!



I was talking about PC Jesus...


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Linus is a Tech guy, he just puts on an alter when he does LTT.



I've never met the guy.  I will say this, I find him entertaining but I don't really watch too much of his videos.  I do come to his videos knowing it's entertainment first with education for the masses second.  It's not an easy gig to pull off and he is probably the most successful tech youtuber/influencer/personality, etc., out there.  He built his own studio and has an entire staff, there something to be said for that.  I'm sure he knows his stuff but realizes what works for his audience and what puts them to sleep.


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## basco (Mar 6, 2020)

that´s vayriachion - i like that shitty brown colour- dont get me wrong plz

ya can see a noctua from miles away- now thats marceting


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> I can understand "normalized" testing for PC cases since most people will add at least one more fan to their case (if not more) but it makes little sense for coolers.  You take something like a Scythe Fuma 2 which sells for $60 and decide that the Noctua NF-A12 is your standardized fan.  You are now testing a $120 set up for S!@# and giggles because no one is likely going to use it.



So many people buy a case and let it ride. I've had to add intakes so many times or hell tell people to turn fans around so not every fan is an exhaust.

I remember when you would buy high end cpu coolers and none of them came with fans. Those days are long gone, and so many use custom fans so you can't replace them easily or cleanly anymore.



dirtyferret said:


> I've never met the guy.  I will say this, I find him entertaining but I don't really watch too much of his videos.  I do come to his videos knowing it's entertainment first with education for the masses second.  It's not an easy gig to pull off and he is probably the most successful tech youtuber/influencer/personality, etc., out there.  He built his own studio and has an entire staff, there something to be said for that.  I'm sure he knows his stuff but realizes what works for his audience and what puts them to sleep.



Exactly!



basco said:


> that´s vayriachion - i like that shitty brown colour- dont get me wrong plz
> 
> ya can see a noctua from miles away- now thats marceting



I like my beige and shit brown fans, damn it!


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

basco said:


> that´s vayriachion - i like that shitty brown colour- dont get me wrong plz
> 
> ya can see a noctua from miles away- now thats marceting



to me it's like BMW Green (technically Iceland Green Metallic).  I see the color, I already know the make of the car.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 6, 2020)

FordGT90Concept said:


> DoE developed a far better testing procedure than GamersNexus is talking about.  Basically, eliminate all variables:
> 1) Use a Peltier rated for a fixed wattage (e.g. 100, 150, or 200w)
> 2) Use a single fan with constant voltage (even on designs meant for 2, 3, or 4 fans)
> 3) place a thermal sensor sandwiched between the two in a constant thermal interface material
> ...



This actually the best way to test actual thermal interface material performance.


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## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

A12 isn't even the best fan. Thermalright 147A, or Scythe Kaze Flex.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> Link to article below as well as the half hour video.  It's an impressive feat the amount of times Steve pats himself on the back in video for creating a test procedure that "makes" all other test procedures obsolete and or incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think Steve sometimes takes himself a bit too seriously.


EarthDog said:


> I fear some of this is complete BS though.


While Steve makes some good points, he also misses the mark on more than a few. So while not complete BS, the article does have some odor to it.


kapone32 said:


> Us Enthusiasts would just buy a Noctua cooler to begin with.


?!? WTH? Noctua is good, but they are far from being the "end-all-be-all of PC cooling" as your comment implies.


rtwjunkie said:


> Um....no.


I'll echo this.


basco said:


> and if someone thinks linus is a tech guy plz look again at his videos( i am not saying he is not a smart businessman )


That's inaccurate and very unfair. It's like saying that Jay, Steve, Kyle, Paul or even Jerry are not "Tech Guys". Such is a silly statement. They each have their own take and perspective on the industry. Just because that perspective doesn't resonate with some users doesn't invalidate their tech worthiness. Example, David Murray(The 8bit Guy). He is most definitely a tech guy. He specializes in/on retro/older tech but no one can deny him the status of "Tech Expert". Linus is no different. He is an expert in his field much like many other YouTubers and many of the people on this site and all are deserving of recognition.


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## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's like saying that Steve, Kyle, Paul, Jay or even Jerry are not "Tech Guys". Such is a silly statement. They each have their own take and perspective on the industry. Just because that perspective doesn't resonate with some users doesn't invalidate their tech worthiness.



The funny thing is they all attend the LTX expo and try to get Linus in their videos so he obviously has a major factor on how they want to grow and how they try to carve out their specific niche to increase views.   Like Jay being the self proclaimed water cooling expert, Steve seems to see himself as the end all be all to tech data.  His findings seem to be the definitive answer if something is good or not (at least in his head) but I personally question how his findings back out into real world performance for the user in some of his reviews.


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## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

Linus has been discussed a lot, but his directing is actually better than pewpew the cursor.
PS: and as a salesman he is just as informative as the so called tech journalists.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 6, 2020)

FordGT90Concept said:


> But, this is pointless. People use the whole assembly as it ships. There's no reason to change anything. *Test the products as they are, like most HSF reviews do.*


And that is exactly how testing should be done. One can only test a cooler based on the merits of it's actual performance installed in a system.


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## basco (Mar 6, 2020)

if ya like them attention wh....  luther thats fine i would not call ya silly over that.
but for me these are all money makers or businessman- not more not less


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## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

There is only one other thorough breed salesman and that is Logan from TigerDirect, imo. These gentlemen make a class leading example of their efforts.


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## freeagent (Mar 6, 2020)

Screw YouTube reviews.

That is all.


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## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

What is wrong with being a businessman? They talk on point, sorry if it triggers you on your tangents. Fact is, they clear the crux of the matters a lot better than the product marketing teams - they are good for a reason. No nonsense product differentiations are their solid ground.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> The funny thing is they all attend the LTX expo and try to get Linus in their videos so he obviously has a major factor on how they want to grow and how they try to carve out their specific niche to increase views.


The thing is, the big tech youtubers band together in support of each other and other techtubers, even though they compete, it's friendly competition. LTT is huge but Linus has created a platform were anyone and everyone is welcome and invited.


dirtyferret said:


> Like Jay being the self proclaimed water cooling expert


Let's be fair to Jay, he very much is.


dirtyferret said:


> Steve seems to see himself as the end all be all to tech data.


Let's also be fair to Steve, the guy knows how to collate data, but...


dirtyferret said:


> His findings seem to be the definitive answer if something is good or not (at least in his head) but I personally question how his findings back out into real world performance for the user in some of his reviews.


... as I said above, he takes himself too seriously sometimes.


basco said:


> if ya like them attention wh.... luther thats fine i would not call ya silly over that.


Didn't mean that as an insult.


basco said:


> but for me these are all money makers or businessman- not more not less


There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone is in the business of making money, LTT is how Linus makes his, Jayz2Cents is how Jay makes his and so on. Just because they are doing it to make money doesn't invalidate what they do, why they do it or how they do it. They've made something they love and are passionate about into a job/career. I say more power to them if they can stay focused on the pulse of the industry.



freeagent said:


> Screw YouTube reviews.
> 
> That is all.


That really says more about you than any of them...


----------



## John Naylor (Mar 6, 2020)

I find GNs reviews as informative as the newspaper ... I'm talking about the free ones i don't read and line the bottom of the bird cage with.  Many of the techniques he describes have long been used by other parties.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Mar 6, 2020)

freeagent said:


> Screw YouTube reviews.
> 
> That is all.



That's what I was thinking, too. Yeah! I'm not alone.



Spoiler



Everyone just needs to get the hell off youtube and other social media and find better things to do with their time.

Then again, what do I know? I don't know even know who this Linus is and I feel I'm a better person for it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 6, 2020)

neatfeatguy said:


> Everyone just needs to get the hell off youtube and other social media and find better things to do with their time.


Why is that? I mean really, just because you don't find value in something doesn't mean it is worthless.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

Where did we get here? Personally, I'm in no loss for deeper scientific inquisition of the matter. These people aren't cohort curators, neither is their field of occupation. If it were up to that, tech would be as boring as news. It is as well-received because of a more relaxed tone of voice. If anything they subserve the need of a younger perspective.


----------



## Regeneration (Mar 6, 2020)

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't this product placement guy? the one who had lots of Nvidia cards on display, when was called on it, started trash talking?

Cooler reviews are fine as long as the room temperature is 100% fixed. The use of thermal chamber is recommended.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

What else, cooling adaptable - turbulence optimised - coolers can only do so much before heat transfer from the coldplate to the heatsink fin array becomes the limiting vector. Now, are we in under any assumption whether they should clear the cooling factor rpm inflection points? How much is too much data that we stop delving any further?
PS: once you clear the turbulence threshold, you will miss your ears.


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Let's be fair to Jay, he very much is.
> 
> Let's also be fair to Steve, the guy knows how to collate data, but...



I'll be very fair to both, they know more about tech then most of the people here (myself included) and they are succeeding in their respective venture.



mtcn77 said:


> What is wrong with being a businessman?



Nothing wrong with being a business man its just that their business is selling us (you, me, lex and all the other viewers) through their Adsense account back to youtube based on the length of our viewership so their objective is not so much on how to inform us as it is to make us watch at length their whole video.


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## sepheronx (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> I'll be very fair to both, they know more about tech then most of the people here (myself included) and they are succeeding in their respective venture.



I wouldn't go that far. They don't know tech more than the average computer enthusiast. What they do have is the financial backing to endure various projects that maybe you and I cannot as we aren't sponsored.  JayZ (I hate these name styles tbh. Trying to sound like some kind of cheap rapper?) Is rather very childish. But I do appreciate how he does a lot of water-cooling so I may learn something from it.  Linus himself is a seller but he has 1 guy on his team (the big fellow) whom is very, very informative and I actually like watching him way more than Linus which is funny cause most people do even if he isnt a showbiz guy but more like us nerds. 

I don't always agree with their methods. Many times I'm rather thinking it's silly or dumb or the episode is an advert.  But in the end, many of them have some very good content.

But aside some members of this site that rather be arrogant jerks who think they are know it alls and have to be sarcastic in their comments, I still learned far more on this forums from various users here than I did by the YouTube celebs.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> their objective is not so much on how to inform us


Their superior intuition is the reason we watch,


dirtyferret said:


> as it is to make us watch at length their whole video.


Not this. They make it look simple. Listen to this: it isn't.


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 6, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> But aside some members of this site that rather be arrogant jerks who think they are know it alls and have to be sarcastic in their comments, I still learned far more on this forums from various users here than I did by the YouTube celebs.



My ears are burning!


----------



## sepheronx (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> My ears are burning!



not saying you.  You have been quite nice actually or at least I never noticed anything you said was rude or arrogant.  So im not referring to you.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> My ears are burning!


This is the first time I've seen seronx display some displacement and even correspondence towards his fellows. He is actually rather disinclined for personal interests. I'd definitely want to hear more towards his viewpoint. Such a charmed fellow.


----------



## sepheronx (Mar 6, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> This is the first time I've seen seronx display some displacement and even correspondence towards his fellows. He is actually rather disinclined for personal interests. I'd definitely want to hear more towards his viewpoint. Such a charmed fellow.



I wont name names.  I just do not feel the need to bring people to the limelight and tarnish their image as it isn't my place.  I am just saying there are some of those members on this forums that rather leave a bad taste in my mouth due to their rude behavior especially to new members whom are asking genuine questions but may not really know how to express their concerns as they may not be as knowledgeable as the rest of us.  People need to learn patience and just treat others as they themselves wish to be treated.

But it isn't Dirtyferret.  He has been very pleasant to me and it isnt you either.  I rather keep my composure and just try to be as helpful as I can.

I just think that many people here are very talented in their knowledge even if they do not think so.  I'll give an example of someone I greatly appreciate and wish to learn more from: @eidairaman1 as he taught me a lot about bios flashing and even now got me into the interest of buying an SPI programmer so I can modify bios'.  I never learned that from any youtube personality.  So I feel this place has its great worth of knowledge.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I rather keep my composure and just try to be as helpful as I can.


That is what makes you humble. When I said your viewpoint, it was towards your previous remark on your industry correspondences, not in the present sense.


----------



## sepheronx (Mar 6, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> That is what makes you humble. When I said your viewpoint, it was towards your previous remark on your industry correspondences, not in the present sense.



I actually appreciate this comment.  I don't get good comments very often towards me even in my personal life (I am more shy and reserved up front rather than online where I am not seeing people face to face).  Then again, I am not very good at explaining my point of view without people thinking ill of me.  So thank you.  It made me feel a lot better today.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 6, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I actually appreciate this comment.  I don't get good comments very often towards me even in my personal life.  Then again, I am not very good at explaining my point of view without people thinking ill of me.  So thank you.  It made me feel a lot better today.


Same sentiment towards a lot of your former self. You make tech look easy.


----------



## sepheronx (Mar 6, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Same sentiment towards a lot of your former self. You make tech look easy.



I have been in the industry for 20 years.  And I am always learning something new.  Something that some members here I am in awe of due to their knowledge; make it look like a baby's toy.

I will not disregard Steve in his way of looking at the methods of testing coolers.  I just think it doesn't really think it outdoes any other test done by other reviewers because as what was mentioned multiple of times here - it is that you test what you were given or purchased.


----------



## kapone32 (Mar 7, 2020)

rtwjunkie said:


> Um....no.



Maybe not you but I certainly would   after looking at the cost of the cooler


freeagent said:


> Over priced, and definitely over hyped.



I used to think that until I actually bought a Noctua cooler. It kept my 1920x in the low 30s and never went past 60 C. Even at full speed the fan is inaudible.The cooler was $100 while one Noctua 140mm PWM fan is up to $48.99 on Amazon. Their Redux line is also pretty good at low RPMs.



lexluthermiester said:


> I think Steve sometimes takes himself a bit too seriously.
> 
> While Steve makes some good points, he also misses the mark on more than a few. So while not complete BS, the article does have some odor to it.
> 
> ...


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 7, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Something that some members here I am in awe of due to their knowledge; make it look like a baby's toy.


Which is the reason the criticism here looks undue to me.
We won't be young. These guys are. They make it simple for us. Why put them in the crosshairs?


lexluthermiester said:


> While Steve makes some good points, he also misses the mark on more than a few.


The guy is actually great with water cooling instrumentation. Honestly, I could care less if he skips a few broad strokes. Who fusses on whose lineup the best fan is?
Like the Noctua question. Normally you won't be presented by just how good Noctuas are, until you devolve into +50% overcurrent at 25% cooling capacity tests. Yes, when you zoom in 600%, Noctua does break away from the pack.


----------



## phanbuey (Mar 7, 2020)

We need the anti-steve.  A comprehensive list of coolers installed by an idiot (me) in a haphazard fashion, after 3 beers, in a case with poor airflow.

The champion of that list will be a special cooler indeed.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 7, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I wouldn't go that far. They don't know tech more than the average computer enthusiast.


Unfortunately, none of us can know that for sure.


sepheronx said:


> I am just saying there are some of those members on this forums that rather leave a bad taste in my mouth due to their rude behavior especially to new members whom are asking genuine questions but may not really know how to express their concerns as they may not be as knowledgeable as the rest of us. People need to learn patience and just treat others as they themselves wish to be treated.


This, a thousand times this. People come here looking for help because TPU is well known for being a place where that help can be found. Some of us go out of our way to be helpful and lend our knowledge to solving the problems people are having. When certain users come in and crap on those efforts it gets very frustrating and tarnishes the TPU community.


sepheronx said:


> I will not disregard Steve in his way of looking at the methods of testing coolers. I just think it doesn't really think it outdoes any other test done by other reviewers because as what was mentioned multiple of times here - it is that you test what you were given or purchased.


Agreed. Steve is an expert in the field. He has a lot of know-how. In the case of the article referenced in this thread, his methodology can be employed to test the absolute properties of a cooling device, but such testing does not show practical performance in a working environment.



mtcn77 said:


> Yes, when you expand the lead 6 times, Noctua does break from the pack.


That might be true but they are far from alone in companies that produce products that break away from the majority of the pack.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 7, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> That might be true but they are far from alone in companies that produce products that break away from the majority of the pack.


We could also take the steve approach and dictate our pedantry. How would you like to_ hear it from an older guy?_ I'm sure that should ruffle your feathers, not knowing which is worse. I honestly don't take hard lines. Anybody can hold a better opinion than me, unless I lay down my stake. I won't take the uncertainty into jeopardy.
Noctua is still the king out there if you are into laminar flow.

I'm more of a thermalright fan, but that is where the credit is due.


----------



## robot zombie (Mar 7, 2020)

I see interesting parallels between PC hardware and audio gear. People like to put certain measurements or ways of measuring things on a pedestal. Often that stuff is generally useful, but it's always a sliver of the bigger picture. Certain benchmarks become like a religion for the audiences of certain reviewers who push their specific benchmarks over others because it doesn't show this or only shows that. They just don't give you everything, you know? That is true of all benchmarks! People get carried away too easily. One won't tell you what another can, and vice versa. It means nothing if you can't fully comprehend the implications and be able to corroborate it with experience. Until then it's mostly a number, as far as you are concerned. It may be good enough on its own. Or it may not.

After a certain point you kind of wonder whether they're trying to inform you, or just selling you products, you know? If a reviewer can measure things in a way that's objective enough for people to trust it, but on some level favors certain products over others, people making those products will want to work with them. And then it becomes something a little out there. Companies start tweaking what they make to look better by that metric and it almost doesn't matter if it lives up, because enough people believe in the metric to buy it and stand by it. Ideology is a powerful tool. It can draw people's attention away from less obvious negatives fairly easily. The reviewers are essentially telegraphing what they want to see before they will make a positive recommendation.

Not too long ago people didn't believe microstutter existed because they couldn't measure it, and the way we measured FPS suggested it was all in people's heads. In audio, people often believe that super-low THD guarantees good sound, when all it really guarantees is 'not bad' sound, specifically in whatever narrow band and power level was tested (gotta watch that too, I've seen people try to pass off distortion figures on headphones at 300vrms, which is basically what you want for starting fires.) It could measure well there and still sound 'not good' because of all of the other things not accounted for. And invariably, the people you see touting it as superior, haven't actually been around to hear things for themselves and realize how much more is not on paper. There's a disconnect from what all of the parameters mean, because you have to observe for yourself before they start sinking in.

Of course when we started looking deeper into frametimes and plotting them out over time with more granularity, the microstutters were there for all to see. Before that, you were an idiot for even mentioning it. Stick to the science, K? I know it's right there in front of you when you're gaming, but we have charts that show it's fine, so it's definitely you!

IIRC we have HardOCP for proliferating measurements showing microstutter. Now that is a big deal. People want to see that consistency in writing AND see people using the card reporting smoothness. People may say the benchmarks look good... usually followed by a _but we'll see._

What I'm getting at is... measuring things in different ways is important. It gets us closer to identifying everything that does and doesn't matter. There's always going to be something to see there. But no measurement paints the whole picture. There's never gonna be that one number or chart to rule them all. That's not really how science is supposed to work. You're always looking for more... always expanding rigor and refining method. This isn't hard science they're doing but it still applies. Just because you have data for one thing, doesn't necessarily disprove things your data didn't account for, that you may not even have identified - and maybe nobody ever has. There will always be those blind spots. Never assume total accuracy, consistency, or practicality.

Honestly.... these kinds of measurements are better for troubleshooting. Say something isn't right with the cooler... it's not performing how your experience suggests it should. So you test it and find some things standing out comparatively. That's your clue to what to change. For someone buying the same product, it may in fact be totally useless.

My biggest pet peeve... and you see this most in new people, is the tendency to cling to one or two measurements for their standard in PC hardware. There are the standbys that give a decent starting point, but I feel like you're setting yourself up to be mislead by thinking you know more than you do simply because you can read charts. You know the ones. They will shit on anything that falls short in one spec or benchmark, even in the face of obvious evidence from people who have real experience with the hardware. It's a mess.

Making good PC hardware is one part art, one part science, and one BIG part experience. Really, that's just engineering in a nutshell. You have to be able to make meaningful subjective observations and learn when not to blindly trust a number and just understand that there is only so much you can learn about a car by putting it on the dyno. For all you know, that perfectly performing machine actually drives like shit.

And with that in mind, I'll be interested in seeing how these benchmarks play out. But I'll still be checking out other ones too. I'm sure Steve and GN know what they're doing. But Steve is only Steve. He's got his own standards and determinations that make sense to him. What that actually amounts to in the real world, even he doesn't know.

If things work out, I'll try them for myself and ACTUALLY find out if it works for me. And if it doesn't I'll tell people. This is where subjectivity comes in. How many times has something been lauded for big performance metrics, with all of this hype and aplomb and people who've never used it propping it up as the best, only to have a bunch of people come around later with other problems? By then, the cult mentality has taken hold and people argue about it for fucking years. It's a pissing contest. People are too scared of buyer's remorse to get their feet wet in this hobby. There is no substitute for that. You can obsess over benchmarks for years and miss the trees for the forest on a consistent basis if you're not getting down and seeing how things actually play out. Otherwise it's kinda like living in a decently (but not amazingly) convincing VR simulation and thinking you understand reality because of it.

Sometimes I think it is actually more useful to ask people who's biases are known to you about what they're using and how it's working out for them than it is to look at benchmarks. ESPECIALLY when it comes to coolers. Everyone measures those completely differently, rarely are they transparent enough about it, and quite often the circumstances they choose to replicate accentuate things that actually don't matter to you, and obfuscate things that matter more than anything. They don't know what you're working with. Only you can know that. On that level, the more actual experience you have, the better things tend to go for you. That last one is really perilous... what seems to make sense on paper isn't always so relevant in practice. Experience is still way more valuable IMO, though benchmarks do count for something.


TLDR: Oh boy, a new way to benchmark coolers!


----------



## xkm1948 (Mar 7, 2020)

It is more amusing reading the response here. Very few on the test methods, statistical analysis.  Good old TPU


----------



## robot zombie (Mar 7, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> It is more amusing reading the response here. Very few on the test methods, statistical analysis.  Good old TPU


I don't think it's that people are uninterested in the nitty gritty. I can say I am, and I see a lot of things in their methods that look promising... like obviously better. A lot of it is just common sense stuff that unfortunately has gone overlooked and/or undisclosed. So I welcome the reevaluation. They're looking at their own techniques critically. I think they have some solid ideas for hammering down details we usually never have such a clear picture of. I like the detailed disclosure. I think this will be good for direct comparison of different coolers, though maybe not for determining which ones are good for what. There's a lot to dive into with their itinerary.

Most, I think are more interested in seeing this methodology in action than just reading claims about how things ought to be done when it comes to benching coolers. Until there actually are numbers to go over, it's neither here nor there. Things will become clearer as it rolls out. Totally get the pull back. I also think people are sort of taking the piss because it's not the first time somebody has rehashed their analysis of coolers, but GN kinda makes it seem like they're revolutionizing the whole deal with the "We're all doing it wrong and I'm finally doing it right!" spiel. We've all heard that before.


----------



## xkm1948 (Mar 7, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> I don't think it's that people are uninterested in the nitty gritty. I can say I am, and I see a lot of things in their methods that look promising... like obviously better. A lot of it is just common sense stuff that unfortunately has gone overlooked and/or undisclosed. So I welcome the reevaluation. They're looking at their own techniques critically. I think they have some solid ideas for hammering down details we usually never have such a clear picture of. I like the detailed disclosure. I think this will be good for direct comparison of different coolers, though maybe not for determining which ones are good for what. There's a lot to dive into with their itinerary.
> 
> Most, I think are more interested in seeing this methodology in action than just reading claims about how things ought to be done when it comes to benching coolers. Until there actually are numbers to go over, it's neither here nor there. Things will become clearer as it rolls out. Totally get the pull back. I also think people are sort of taking the piss because it's not the first time somebody has rehashed their analysis of coolers, but GN kinda makes it seem like they're revolutionizing the whole deal with the "We're all doing it wrong and I'm finally doing it right!" spiel. We've all heard that before.



They have developed a new pipeline, i see it as good for consumers: for folks wanting more data and stringent statistical testing these are great. What is it there to lose? You don’t like it don’t watch it. Yet all i see is just bunch of couch experts attacking based on their own emotional bias. So eager to judge.  Calling others “take themselves too seriously” while not bothering looking at their own judgmental attitudes.

I will keep the rest of my thought to myself. You folks go and enjoy.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 7, 2020)

You're making it sound as if he's done something *revolutionary*, AT has been at it for GOD knows how long & I'd take their reviews over any other random *YTer* any & every day of the week 








						The Cougar Helor 240-360 CPU Liquid Cooler Review: A Top Tier Start In CPU Cooling
					






					www.anandtech.com


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 7, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think Steve sometimes takes himself a bit too seriously.
> 
> While Steve makes some good points, he also misses the mark on more than a few. So while not complete BS, the article does have some odor to it.
> 
> ...



8bit Guy I take more seriously than Linus. GN i only really look at for GPU disassembly, Actually Hardcore Overclocking I look at motherboards for VRMs



sepheronx said:


> I wont name names.  I just do not feel the need to bring people to the limelight and tarnish their image as it isn't my place.  I am just saying there are some of those members on this forums that rather leave a bad taste in my mouth due to their rude behavior especially to new members whom are asking genuine questions but may not really know how to express their concerns as they may not be as knowledgeable as the rest of us.  People need to learn patience and just treat others as they themselves wish to be treated.
> 
> But it isn't Dirtyferret.  He has been very pleasant to me and it isnt you either.  I rather keep my composure and just try to be as helpful as I can.
> 
> I just think that many people here are very talented in their knowledge even if they do not think so.  I'll give an example of someone I greatly appreciate and wish to learn more from: @eidairaman1 as he taught me a lot about bios flashing and even now got me into the interest of buying an SPI programmer so I can modify bios'.  I never learned that from any youtube personality.  So I feel this place has its great worth of knowledge.



I am still learning myself. I am limited in the oc dept because I am on older hardware so oc for a ryzen/intel is far diff than a FX or Athlon 64.

SPI programming if done properly can be a safer means than using software flashers, it is more involved though because you have to know what chip onboard is the eeprom, how to align the chip clip and what software to use to force flash.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 7, 2020)

R0H1T said:


> You're making it sound as if he's done something *revolutionary*, AT has been at it for GOD knows how long & I'd take their reviews over any other random *YTer* any & every day of the week
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sure people remember
http://www.frostytech.com/testmethod_mk2.cfm


----------



## robot zombie (Mar 7, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> They have developed a new pipeline, i see it as good for consumers: for folks wanting more data and stringent statistical testing these are great. What is it there to lose? You don’t like it don’t watch it. Yet all i see is just bunch of couch experts attacking based on their own emotional bias. So eager to judge.  Calling others “take themselves too seriously” while not bothering looking at their own judgmental attitudes.
> 
> I will keep the rest of my thought to myself. You folks go and enjoy.


I think you're taking things more seriously than others are even taking themselves, honestly. Drive-by observations are just that. We all make them. Maybe I'm missing something in text, but you're coming off pretty emotional yourself. How is anyone supposed to take that last line as anything but super-judgemental? How can you just call other people judgemental and then immediately after turn up your nose yourself like you're doing us a favor? All I've seen from you in this thread is pointing the finger at everyone else, while not really talking about any of the things you are judging them for not talking about. Why not dive into that stuff instead? I'm sure you have some thoughts on their methods that would be more valuable to people than your thoughts on other people's thoughts.

I mean, what's the point of complaining about people missing the point if you're not going to share what they're actually missing? You're not changing anybody's minds with a blanket criticism. "You don't like it, don't watch it." Or, if you feel people are being too judgemental, show where with more than a couple of general statements. Give us something to actually digest and respond to. I fully believe you actually can. I truly don't doubt someone in your field can get deeper into it than most of us here could - you're experienced in that exact kind of thinking. But you make it sound like you're above doing that, like people here aren't worth it. Gotta admit, that is hard to take seriously. Again, makes me wonder who is getting emotional here. I'd expect someone calm would be more willing to participate without immediately turning to others, in spite of major disagreements.

Sorry, just don't see what you're after by saying these things. Why come in here to grumble about people's attitudes towards some people who test and review stuff online when you're set on leaving us to it anyway? Just to make sure we all know you think we're all full of shit? Instead of going after people and ripping on the state of TPU, you could've simply talked about what you wanted to see talked about. But you haven't really done that - it all circles back to how you feel about people's opinions. You stepped in, complained, and bowed out. It's a very confusing take. Nothing personal, I'm trying to be reasonable and just call what I see straight-up - I have nothing against you! But really now... what's all of that doing for anyone? We can go in circles discussing who's taking themselves too seriously forever, but really why go there at all if you yourself think it's all meaningless? Isn't that just more frustration for you? Have some faith, man! Things can be so much worse in the world of shitty opinions. The worst that happens here is people get stuck on random minutia for pages, which is nothing compared to how ugly things can really be.

And yes, I am judging you a bit, just as you have judged everyone else. If I'm arrogant, so are you. We're in this together, hate it or not.


I get your point. It's never bad to take a more focused, purpose and method driven approach. I do agree, it's actually refreshing to see them being more stringent. I can't remember ever seeing anyone go through so many variables and really lay out the hows and whys. I respect that. And I'm thinking very few here are actually meaning to question that, in itself.

There is a knee-jerk because of junk science and bad method. People have heard this stuff so much they won't even take it seriously anymore. They see it and immediately laugh, because that is the state of things right now. Credibility as a reviewer is hard to keep. Still gotta try, of course. And it doesn't mean it's inherently worthless either. It's just that people are wary on principle. Whether that's rational or not is another deal. I don't think it is. But I also don't hold it to people to be rational all of the time. Very few are wired for that. It's a wonder we've made it this far but somehow we keep moving forw... err, in some direction 

People are always going to be skeptical of reviewers who present themselves as having better knowledge than others. People are gonna think what they're gonna think and have their preferred sources regardless. There is an inseparable emotional component. I don't think anyone here actually thinks they're an expert (well... some might lol.) I'd say most people here care less about the harder science and more about just getting to what works for them... sharing opinions of varying quality along the way. You're not wrong, this isn't a very deep conversation. Nor is this really that kind of forum... or at least not in my time here. I think on some level even those most judgemental of us get that we don't know everything. I have seen people turn from judgemental to understanding pretty quick with the right info. This is pretty relaxed to me. We're not scientists here, just regular nerds being picky for no goddamned reason. I don't see anybody dropping credentials here. Nor is anybody against more good data. That's not the concern for them.

I think as part of a larger dialogue and just in sheer raw contributions to the overall data pool, what they're doing is great. I also think they're being a little silly in how they're presenting what they're actually doing, which is testing coolers in a somewhat novel way. They're making it sound like more than it is, as though nobody has ever sat down and worked out more stringent methods than before. Most of it should be common sense anyway. That's all. Doesn't mean the data isn't welcome. I'm betting a lot of people here will have no problems referencing it when they see a use for it. Why wouldn't you? People may have their opinions about things, but practicality rules the day. If the data is good, and the methods work, people will use it all, regardless of their personal opinions of where it comes from. I see that sentiment in this thread, too. It's good that a reviewer is hashing out their testing, but I think expecting people to think of them as anything more than a reviewer is asking too much. More data is still well and good, just as GN is but one of many review outlets. And that's how most people are going to see Steve, no matter what he says or does.


----------



## Frick (Mar 7, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> They have developed a new pipeline, i see it as good for consumers: for folks wanting more data and stringent statistical testing these are great. What is it there to lose? You don’t like it don’t watch it. Yet all i see is just bunch of couch experts attacking based on their own emotional bias. So eager to judge.  Calling others “take themselves too seriously” while not bothering looking at their own judgmental attitudes.
> 
> I will keep the rest of my thought to myself. You folks go and enjoy.



This is a tangent, but bias is like the point of emotions, sort of. Even more tangential: thought induces emotion.

Also it's the attitude that people have problems with. The title is Everyone else is wrong, basically. I like standardized fan testing (as long as there are articles to read because video reviews can go bucket) and the more detail and data the better.


----------



## Flanker (Mar 7, 2020)

Why can't we have both? Silent PC Review used to do that when they were active. A graph with their chosen reference fan and a seperate graph with bundled fans


----------



## freeagent (Mar 7, 2020)

There was a few people who didn’t like what I said about YouTube reviews. Don’t get me wrong, I watch them too.. but what they say is not the gospel to me. The same go for written review, I read them, but it’s up to me what I do with that information. I try to use them both. . to a point.
Since this thread is about tech jesus, I’m not gonna lie, I think he’s a good kid, and he’s trying. I click his links. But there’s a few guys on there and it’s like omg you guys wtf. And people click their links. My kids live on YouTube, but they don’t watch tech reviews.. they are more into guys who play games and put it on YouTube


----------



## robot zombie (Mar 7, 2020)

freeagent said:


> There was a few people who didn’t like what I said about YouTube reviews. Don’t get me wrong, I watch them too.. but what they say is not the gospel to me. The same go for written review, I read them, but it’s up to me what I do with that information. I try to use them both. . to a point.
> Since this thread is about tech jesus, I’m not gonna lie, I think he’s a good kid, and he’s trying. I click his links. But there’s a few guys on there and it’s like omg you guys wtf. And people click their links. My kids live on YouTube, but they don’t watch tech reviews.. they are more into guys who play games and put it on YouTube


I like youtube, but all channels have that weird personality cult. I know it's just branding but people seem to think of them more as celebrities that they could actually hang out with. They believe what is presented as though it's coming from a trusted friend and defend them like blood relatives. It's kind of scary, how many things you can find floating around on the internet that are actually straight dogma from one youtube channel or another. It's untraceable. You only know it if you see it on youtube before it spreads. A lot of times the info is mostly okay, but just the fact that it might not be and enough fans can still parrot it enough for people outside of it to internalize it, never knowing it's twilight-zone insights, freaks me out a bit. I wonder, with how some people consume youtube and view creators, what kind of impact that's having on all sorts of narratives. Not even going to politics, just general things. You can say it's just the weirdo fans, but that stuff trickles out to people who've mostly never heard of them in a month or two flat. A lot of them never get called out, either. Half of the time their source is another youtube channel out for views and they just play off of eachother, so now you've got two guys making stuff from beyond the event horizon something that exists in normal headspace 

Honestly, I think 'viral info' was a terrible premise to begin with. It makes people rush to conclusions. Same reason documentaries often aren't the best way to learn about something. They also have to entertain you while trying to cram information down a narrow channel. And how entertaining it is often influences what people are willing to take without seeking more sources. Juust the right sized bites to satisfy, but not enough to do much with.

And then there is all of the cringey stuff they do for views. If you look at the most popular stuff, you know youtube is overwhelmingly kids. It's gotta be. And then you look at the comments. I've never seen more fascinating displays of mutually assured ignorance. If most of those people aren't 16 or younger, I genuinely feel bad for them, because man... the amount of ineptitude and severe emotional baggage on display is a lot to take in. They read like they barely know how to express themselves, let alone process new information meaningfully. I wish I was just being cynical, but it's so out there I don't know if I'll ever get used to it. Even compared to other social media, it's a new zone. Something about the way things are delivered there seems to lead more impressionable people to lose perspective real hard and fast. Add video to the usual social media info sugar rush and I think it takes people over the edge.

To me the comments have to speak to the content. I think "So the people who believe [insert crazy baseless twitter twatting brought out in video by an attractive person faking good speaking skills] also believe this." and I don't trust it, even if there's no other real reason. Hell, there are entire channels devoted to things people say on reddit, tumblr, and twitter!

The platform as a whole has just become this big echo chamber where everyone mostly just goes for views. Most of it, I can only take so seriously. Some of the littler creators are pretty alright, but mainstream YT is basically only a notch or two above daytime TV for me in terms of info quality and entertainment factor. Youtubers aren't inherently pandering shills, but they all use some of the same junkfood tricks.

That said, GN IS one of the better ones. They integrate their community well, and for the most part they're pretty with it. They stick to what they say they're out to do, and legitimately do come out with useful information that runs a little deeper. They're usually NOT the super-click-baity ones. They usually pack a lot of info into their videos too. Not a lot of nonsense time wasting. It is almost entirely what it says it is. That's one thing I've always appreciated about them. I don't walk away feeling like I was bamboozled into watching bullshit that was only loosely related to what made me want to watch in the first place.

But then, GN wasn't always on youtube. They started as a blog type of deal back on the oldnet. The ones born completely of the tube are a different breed entirely. Most obvious difference being how little actually meaningful stuff they can pack into 10 minutes of time.

That's really it for me. I don't want to watch a video for benchmarks. It's the same as with guides. Unless I need to see video, I waste so much time waiting for the info I want and emotional energy skipping around to find it, for something that I could get instantaneously through a single image, or 15-30 seconds of reading. I mean, what really is a tech review but a guy talking over some cool b-roll with some slides and quotes mixed in? Maybe some cringey skits for the tube kidz. To me, that's a step backwards. It gets your attention, but the info-time ratio sucks and it wears me down when I actually have another goal other than sitting and watching something. It's just breaking my flow. I try to spend as little time there as possible just because of how superficial so much of it really is.


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 7, 2020)

@robot zombie , every time I see you posted my first thought is "let me get a fresh cup of coffee this will be long"


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 7, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> @robot zombie , every time I see you posted my first thought is "let me get a fresh cup of coffee this will be long"


He pales in comparison to john naylor... 

...but typically good content.


----------



## AsRock (Mar 7, 2020)

Personally i think it's a good idea to have a fixed heat source to find how efficient a cooler can be, although i do hope they use the original fan and others too just to see if their is a better fan than the one that comes with the cooler.


So much hate


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 7, 2020)

The problem is we have seen this testing before with TECs used etc. and I can tell you having reviewed the same coolers retested them on multiple platforms the results you get on TEC might show you how efficient a cooler is but it doesnt translate to reality in an actual system. As pointed out above Frosty Tech used a setup very similar to what GN is now going to use. The real world results vs TEC results are quite a bit different. I got no problem with GN doing things that way and its a valid test method for determining the true efficiency of a product but if the results don't mimic reality they aren't really all that useful. Interesting but not really applicable.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 7, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> The problem is we have seen this testing before with TECs used etc. and I can tell you having reviewed the same coolers retested them on multiple platforms the results you get on TEC might show you how efficient a cooler is but it doesnt translate to reality in an actual system. As pointed out above Frosty Tech used a setup very similar to what GN is now going to use. The real world results vs TEC results are quite a bit different. I got no problem with GN doing things that way and its a valid test method for determining the true efficiency of a product but if the results don't mimic reality they aren't really all that useful. Interesting but not really applicable.



Id Like to have a peltier myself but I would need a fireloop and a thermal relay layout to prevent melting of wires lol


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 7, 2020)

Put another way having done pre production testing on various coolers to determine performance and validate it before moving to final production there is a reason manufacturers seek out testing data on systems rather than using TECs etc.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 7, 2020)

I see circular logic again and again. Reference fans will only displace the issue to an upper level. Two heatsinks with the same fans do not provide the same cooling, nor the sound volume. You have to assess turbulence point and infer from that whether the cooling capacity is in quiet mode, or loud. Do it for every cooler and there goes any semblance for serial testing.


----------



## Vayra86 (Mar 7, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> They have developed a new pipeline, i see it as good for consumers: for folks wanting more data and stringent statistical testing these are great. What is it there to lose? You don’t like it don’t watch it. Yet all i see is just bunch of couch experts attacking based on their own emotional bias. So eager to judge.  Calling others “take themselves too seriously” while not bothering looking at their own judgmental attitudes.
> 
> I will keep the rest of my thought to myself. You folks go and enjoy.



The problem arises when Tuber in question seeks to disqualify other, FAR more realistic methods of testing gear. And that in and by itself is the poison I and others object to.

Steve aint better or smarter here than the rest, he is just eager for a soundbite that generates clicks snd subs. And THAT is... disgusting. You dont get rich from being modest. But it does gain respect. Steve is beyond that modesty now, and it damages him, that is what I see.


----------



## AddSub (Mar 7, 2020)

I thought this guy with Jazze2pesos were mostly directed at the GenZ Fortnite crowd, along with the rest of the YouTube "reviewers", no? C'mon, these guys are National Enquirer level of sophistication as far as... let's say, "accuracy" of their content. I recognize some of the names in this thread and I know for a fact some of you are even older than my creaky behind. You should know better.


...
..
.


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## mtcn77 (Mar 7, 2020)

You aren't doing this to reach above turbulent point. The sound volume becomes loud if the rotor blades start to rip the airflow. Optimal kinetics is when the fin array provides the turbulence, not the fan. So the fan-fin unit already has a resolution - it is the best the fins can do, nothing more.


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## AsRock (Mar 8, 2020)

eidairaman1 said:


> Id Like to have a peltier myself but I would need a fireloop and a thermal relay layout to prevent melting of wires lol



Good luck with that,  some old post came to mind.









						What happens when a TEC overheats? Look inside to see.
					

Well, I had the TEC/water cooling, E4300, and eVGA 680i A1 up and running for all of a day. Didn't even get to overclock.  First, the explanation. I recently purchased d44ve's whole TEC setup, E4300, and the 680i, all for $400. As shown here...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 8, 2020)

AsRock said:


> Good luck with that,  some old post came to mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Epic tech gore right there.


----------



## Grog6 (Mar 8, 2020)

Peltier coolers are not a good idea for daily use.

Stuff like the thread you linked are way too common, and if a peltier shorts or a diode cracks, it doesn't cool and becomes a conductor, which is a heater of however much power it can draw off the PSU.
BTDT.

I got a free Maximus IV based computer from work because the idiot who built it used a peltier cooler, and it failed.
Luckily, the PSU he used only had about 50W of headroom, so it crashed repeatedly instead of catching on fire.

If he'd built it like I do, it would have had a 1000W PSU, and looked like the one in the link, probably.

I got to do a great demo of overclocking and cooling out of that fiasco; I put a copper standard heatsink in a bath of LN2, in a custom tank I built around it.
Then I overclocked the Q6600 to 4.9GHz, while the ln2 boiled happily. 

I learned a valuable lesson that day, tho; pouring Liquid helium into LN2 is like pouring water on a stove; it explodes and goes everywhere.
I thought "cold is cold", right?
Yeah; No.
Don't do that; it ruins your cred, lol.

I'm thinking of doing a water cooled system, and putting a peltier in the tank, with a thermal fuse to ensure against any disasters. (Peltier cooling happens separately, outside the tank, obviously)
Thoughts?


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## phanbuey (Mar 8, 2020)

just a normal water chiller is probably better


Grog6 said:


> Peltier coolers are not a good idea for daily use.
> 
> Stuff like the thread you linked are way too common, and if a peltier shorts or a diode cracks, it doesn't cool and becomes a conductor, which is a heater of however much power it can draw off the PSU.
> BTDT.
> ...







__





						Wish - Shopping Made Fun
					

Shopping Made Fun. Join over 500 million others that have made their shopping more smart, fun, and rewarding.




					www.wish.com
				




Just a normal, tiny 72w aquarium chiller is probably better. Keep it cool enough to not condense, but still very cool, and then no maintenance really needed, just regulates itself.


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## hat (Mar 8, 2020)

I agree... chiller is as good as it gets for "normal" use. One of our members @Knoxx29 sees good results with his. Beyond that, you're going into extreme territory where possibly more than just money is flying out the window...


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## Grog6 (Mar 8, 2020)

If that chiller fails, the water flowing thru it will go to having a heater at whatever power level is available to it.

Peltiers are great when they work.  

Not so much when they fail.

200W cooling becomes 400W heating, in the bad version.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 8, 2020)

Ahh... Youtube personalities... it causes more bad than good. As usual... ignore them and stick to written media.

There is only one exception for me using video reviews, and that is camera gear... but also there are fanboy personalities that make the whole thing a joke because of a need making clickbaitish articles to gain clicks. The reality is bent just for the sake it.



Vayra86 said:


> Nothing is holy. Noctua had been very lazy. And why not, they have a great product that withstands the test of time, poop color or not!



They ain't, I saw an ad, they are selling clothes now too...


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## sneekypeet (Mar 8, 2020)

Ferrum Master said:


> Ahh... Youtube personalities... it causes more bad than good. As usual... ignore them and stick to written media.
> 
> There is only one exception for me using video reviews, and that is camera gear... but also there are fanboy personalities that make the whole thing a joke because of a need making clickbaitish articles to gain clicks. The reality is bent just for the sake it.
> 
> ...



Just saying....one of the best sweatshirts I have ever owned though.


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## phanbuey (Mar 8, 2020)

Ferrum Master said:


> Ahh... Youtube personalities... it causes more bad than good. As usual... ignore them and stick to written media.
> 
> There is only one exception for me using video reviews, and that is camera gear... but also there are fanboy personalities that make the whole thing a joke because of a need making clickbaitish articles to gain clicks. The reality is bent just for the sake it.
> 
> ...



Noctua Executive - "Guys I just read a business book, and we have to stop thinking of ourselves as just a PC cooling accessory company, we are a THERMAL SOLUTIONS company!"

Engineer "We could make a hoodie...?"

Exectuive - "BRILLIANT!"


----------



## DAPUNISHER (Mar 9, 2020)

Steve can keep doing Steve, GN is his BBQ. However, I think perhaps, Steve has semi or subconsciously taken the tech jesus moniker far too seriously. He now sees himself as our tech savior, and he has come to preach on the mount. He seems intent that he be crucified and martyred at some point too, if recent content is any indication. Yes, that is said tongue in cheek.  

Because there is another subject he covered, that could be _humorously_ attributed to his suffering from a Messiah complex. Other popular tech tubers are advising their audiences to buy now, if any of them have been hesitating on pulling the trigger on a DIY, component, or prebuilt. They council that supply chain disruption could result in scarcity, which historically leads to price increases. And that furthermore, the used market always reacts by increasing prices to capitalize. Sound advice. E.G. I have read SSDs are going to be getting more expensive soon, as much as 40 percent. And prices are still good on most components; don't get me started on PSU pricing lately.  Anyways, he is being the contrarian, and it comes off as click bait edge lord stuff. Best case, someone waits and spends the same or slightly less depending on what is being purchased. Worst case, his viewers listen to him, supplies dry up, prices spike, and he will be getting roasted for giving them bad advice. Why risk it, if it wasn't for views/money grubbing? It also felt more like he was addressing the idiotic chattering of the youtube comments section trolls, than his tech tuber contemporaries.

As to his new testing methodology, I give it a firm MEH! It will have no appreciable impact on my purchasing habits. 

I will conclude this post by giving props to @robot zombie for the Hardocp comments. They took a lot of flack for talking about the actual game play experience. Every forum I visited, members were flaming them mercilessly for it. They were on the right side of history, and before their time. Like most before their time, they were castigated for it. And I also agree that one of the best uses of benchmarks is for troubleshooting. Being able to reference multiple sites benchmarks, is indispensable, when evaluating potentially faulty or under performing hardware.


----------



## Frick (Mar 9, 2020)

AsRock said:


> Good luck with that,  some old post came to mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aww the old guys.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Mar 9, 2020)

Frick said:


> Aww the old guys.



Poor man's phase change cooling, is what TECs were. Which of course we're just really more of a 24/7 dry ice cooling system. Those compressors were loud and heavy... LoL

Ahh the good old days... LoL


----------



## Palladium (Mar 9, 2020)

Ferrum Master said:


> Ahh... Youtube personalities... it causes more bad than good. As usual... ignore them and stick to written media.



The only modern PC hardware videos I watch now on YT are side-by-side real time FCAT comparisons between hardware A vs B without a single voiceover and selfcam, and even then I skip to the summaries most of the time. Because I can't stand filler and sensationalism.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 9, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> Just saying....one of the best sweatshirts I have ever owned though.



Curious if they come with a 6yr warranty and if you grow in or out of a size do they send you a mounting kit for a snug fit ?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 9, 2020)

Palladium said:


> The only modern PC hardware videos I watch now on YT are side-by-side real time FCAT comparisons between hardware A vs B without a single voiceover and selfcam, and even then I skip to the summaries most of the time. Because I can't stand filler and sensationalism.


Ah, but you're missing part of the point, entertainment. For example, I find Jay very interesting and entertaining. He let's his humanity show without it feeling forced or scripted. His video's are just plain fun. He talks the specs, shows the results of testing and conducts interesting experiments regularly.

YouTubers are like musicians, not everyone likes every artist/band. You find some you resonate with and roll with them.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Mar 9, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ah, but you're missing part of the point, entertainment. For example, I find Jay very interesting and entertaining. He let's his humanity show without it feeling forced or scripted. His video's are just plain fun. He talks the specs, shows the results of testing and conducts interesting experiments regularly.
> 
> YouTubers are like musicians, not everyone likes every artist/band. You find some you resonate with and roll with them.



He definitely has a certain level of dislike for AMD he lets slip.

Like if I was in his shoes, I'd likely slip in potshots against the Decepticon twins(Asus) and nVidia, because of the mountains of shit they put me through. LoL

His self righteous attitude is really turning me off of him though. It is bordering on dishonesty in my opinion.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 9, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> He definitely has a certain level of dislike for AMD he lets slip.


Not really. In fact lately he's been a big supporter of AMD. One of his main systems is Ryzen based.


gamefoo21 said:


> His self righteous attitude is really turning me off of him though. It is bordering on dishonesty in my opinion.


And there's an example of individual perspective.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Mar 10, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not really. In fact lately he's been a big supporter of AMD. One of his main systems is Ryzen based.
> 
> And there's an example of individual perspective.



Sorry he shits on Radeons and AMDs handling of Radeons a little too often.

His biases are real and on display.

He directly negotiates with companies for cash for views. He has personal relationships with people at those companies and more than a few have mentioned that how you treat those companies products directly affects the yearly advertising contracts. Steve has bills and employees.

He acquired $20,000 in free V100s. He suddenly treats a gimpy 2060 very differently than any other card...

He can only give two shits about workstation performance on team green hardware...

Yeah no bias at all... 

But he's got self righteous indignation and he throws bitch fits about he's better than any of that. He isn't human and he isn't subject to basic human psychology...

He doesn't rage about his image. He's blind to how stacking nothing but NV boxes and GPUs on set would convey to viewers while slipping in cheap shots about how it mustn't be Asus's fault but actually AMDs for the Strix 5700XT while he convienently avoids bringing up the too long of screws so the cooler pulls off the GPU.

Nah no bias at all... Oh that video went up days after Hardware Unboxed actually reported it properly.

I won't lie Steve does good work, but he isn't a single source. No one ever is, I view a few of his vids a month, mostly the news ones because he does cover some things that I might miss. So it's helpful that way.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 10, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> His self righteous attitude is really turning me off of him though. It is bordering on dishonesty in my opinion.



It was a running theme on some of the videos that the viewer should be thankful because GN is doing its job and reviewing the products.



lexluthermiester said:


> Ah, but you're missing part of the point, entertainment. For example, I find Jay very interesting and entertaining. *He let's his humanity show without it feeling forced or scripted.* His video's are just plain fun. He talks the specs, shows the results of testing and conducts interesting experiments regularly.



Go check his Twitter. Even other YouTubers make fun of Jay for being so toxic. They even made fun of him for it at Linus roast.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 10, 2020)

Wow people... Context much?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 10, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Sorry he shits on Radeons and AMDs handling of Radeons a little too often.
> 
> His biases are real and on display.
> 
> ...



No sense in getting riled up over these people, they do this stuff because they get paid to do it. Just don't watch them. Only watch them if they have fixes for something. That goes for LTT, JTC, GN, UB, etc etc.

Arrogance comes before a fall


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 10, 2020)

Keep fanning the flames guys! There is free beer and cheap entertainment. Soon we'll stop being corona free so make it count(turkey)! Let the edge lords meet their doom.


----------



## robot zombie (Mar 10, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Keep fanning the flames guys! There is free beer and cheap entertainment. Soon we'll stop being corona free so make it count(turkey)! Let the edge lords meet their doom.


I was never a big fan of Corona TBH. People say it's great with the salt and lime and all but tequila, that still is not, so why again? That's just bullshit with a crisp garnishing. Always been more of a Modelo guy if we're talking Mexican piss beer. Corona is either water or mildly funky water. At the very least Modelo tastes like slightly more funky water.

Honestly, I'll be happy to see both of them go. Glad to see people distancing themselves from Corona. I never got why anybody would want to drink that stuff. Bit extreme to cordon people away from it like this though. Hard time getting it off of all of the airplanes or something too? I guess it's making people sick now... I've always said that at some point everyone has to realize that the Chinese have been pissing in clear glass bottles and selling it to us as Mexican beer for decades. People need to wake up. Do your research... before it's too late.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Mar 10, 2020)

eidairaman1 said:


> No sense in getting riled up over these people, they do this stuff because they get paid to do it. Just don't watch them. Only watch them if they have fixes for something. That goes for LTT, JTC, GN, UB, etc etc.
> 
> Arrogance comes before a fall



That's true, I guess I got a touch testy. I hurt my left wrist pretty badly today and typing that message was pain inducing and it showed.

I'll step away from this.

JTC I envy his case modding skills but I wish he had better taste in cars.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Mar 10, 2020)

First review with the new testing methodology I found it pretty interesting.

At the very least it shows directly how the coolers compare while limiting variables.












I kinda wish they would test with a 9600k/9900k like they're doing with the 2 ryzen processors

That's sort of the issues I have with a lot of cooler reviews they use ancient cpu with toothpaste under the ihs.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 11, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> First review with the new testing methodology I found it pretty interesting.
> 
> At the very least it shows directly how the coolers compare while limiting variables.
> 
> ...


Yet apparently even with such complete and thorough testing they didnt notice it has clearance issues on say ITX boards or other boards due to it not conforming from my understanding the Intel keep out zone guidelines.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Mar 11, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Yet apparently even with such complete and thorough testing they didnt notice it has clearance issues on say ITX boards or other boards due to it not conforming from my understanding the Intel keep out zone guidelines.



Whoa...

You want him to actually pay attention to why the performance sucks and how it hits the components around the socket...

LoL


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 11, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Whoa...
> 
> You want him to actually pay attention to why the performance sucks and how it hits the components around the socket...
> 
> LoL


Well i managed it........ and im apparently not good at my job and test the wrong way so says GN


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Mar 11, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Well i managed it........ and im apparently not good at my job and test the wrong way so says GN




I like GN just like I like TPU.... He shouldn't be calling out other peoples test results or methods though its uncalled for.

The consumer of this sort of content should be smart enough to know what scenarios the testing is done in most applies to them.


----------



## mtcn77 (Mar 11, 2020)

Tech Jesus used to test Nvidia gpus which showed increasing judder in decrement to the product lineup order as temperature function. No note, of the big saccadic spikes were present in the footnotes.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Mar 11, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Well i managed it........ and im apparently not good at my job and test the wrong way so says GN



I totally referenced your review... 



oxrufiioxo said:


> I like GN just like I like TPU.... He shouldn't be calling out other peoples test results or methods though its uncalled for.
> 
> The consumer of this sort of content should be smart enough to know what scenarios the testing is done in most applies to them.



The problem is GN is trying to stamp out references to the competition. He is trying to target the people who think he knows best. The rest of us know better and watch and still go to TPU, other sites/forums and even other YouTubers.



mtcn77 said:


> Tech Jesus used to test Nvidia gpus which showed increasing judder in decrement to the product lineup order as temperature function. No note, of the big saccadic spikes were present in the footnotes.



Shhh... You aren't supposed to bring up his rampant Nvidia bias, you'll upset his followers. His word is the truth and his way infallible.


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 11, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> First review with the new testing methodology I found it pretty interesting.
> 
> At the very least it shows directly how the coolers compare while limiting variables.
> 
> ...


Yet no written review and it's 20 minutes of him dragging out comments.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Mar 11, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> Yet no written review and it's 20 minutes of him dragging out comments.




Unfortunately I feel like print is slowly dying especially with so many people using ad blockers etc. The other issues is some of my favorite print sites either dying or becoming a joke over the last decade. 
I really really liked Tom's Hardware back in the early to mid 2000s even prior to building my first custom pc and now they are a shell of their former self imo. 

Other than TPU I really only like anandtech these days although some of the headline stories here make me roll my eyes but you get that with every site unfortunately trying to get clicks.


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## AsRock (Mar 11, 2020)

This iis what kinda pisses me off with this place, so much hate and don't see any of you who are bitching trying to make video's for TPU,  trying to keep bringing up less done stuff or put a fresh look on things gets harder over time even more so when you have to watch every word you say never mind the other ton of youtube rules.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 11, 2020)

Anyway GN is full of nonesense. I will just leave this link here cause people seem to have forgot them. http://www.frostytech.com/testmethod_mk2.cfm

Looks super similar been around forever. Literally read the above link then watch the GN video.........


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## robot zombie (Mar 11, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Unfortunately I feel like print is slowly dying especially with so many people using ad blockers etc. The other issues is some of my favorite print sites either dying or becoming a joke over the last decade.
> I really really liked Tom's Hardware back in the early to mid 2000s even prior to building my first custom pc and now they are a shell of their former self imo.
> 
> Other than TPU I really only like anandtech these days although some of the headline stories here make me roll my eyes but you get that with every site unfortunately trying to get clicks.


PC building market seems big but in the grand scheme it is pretty niche. Without strong community support they just don't make it. Two pitfalls really... number one is you can't risk putting people off - point out the negatives of a certain product too transparently and you not only risk the audience that doesn't agree, but the people who make it may be unwilling to work with you... and on an increasingly strained budget, that can hurt. So they shy away from certain things and make thier communities hyper-inclusive, at total expense to overall SnR and long-term engagement. Idiots come and go, and that's enough engagement to drive them along. The other side of that is how hard it is to sincerely engage an audience to the point where they can't imagine you not being there. Honestly there are too many people in the tech journo game and not enough bread to serve the table. So we wind up with two kinds of bad situations. We have ones that go all in on just getting the draw with cheap, hollow garbage... at the expense of meaningful content and the culture surrounding the hobby. And then, we have the ones who act like nobody can do any wrong. They will make inappropriate comparisons to make a product look good, when it doesn't otherwise and generally take the stance that everything is different flavors of good - everything is 8-10 stars! Should you buy it? "If you want it the answer is always yes!" They fill the whole thing up with people that have toxic and misguided mindsets. That shapes their buying habits. And the buying habits help determine what's available and at what price.

GN is contrary to the latter, but to me is becoming the other side of the coin. They don't need free stuff and special access... they just need enough people to believe in what they are doing. And they know people will favor them over everyone else. They're banking on other people seeing the over-positive attitudes and feeding on the disdain born of it. It's smart. They have their finger on the pulse. I don't think it does a whole lot of good in the grand scheme... they're just playing the same game. But their success with it speaks to the state of things. And there are doubtless better ways to capitalize on that unrest. I used to like how they weren't afraid to put manufacturers out on their ass. But then they wore that like a badge of honor, like somehow that's how things are supposed to be. And I think that's part of a bigger problem, so I'm out.

Anywho... with the saturation of crap like that, it gives the whole thing a bad name and none of the staunchest enthusiasts, the people who would be around supporting them for years, want anything to do with the whole affair. They grab what they need and get out, because at the end of the day a lot of it is hollow and the communities that form around them kinda suck. The full adoption of adblockers is a huge blow to everyone, good and bad. But to me those ads are the only reason subpar content ever made it through to begin with. Now, everyone will have to find other ways to stick around. Half-full/half-empty. Some will take the high road, others will take the low road. You can stand out taking the high road. It's just harder to do successfully. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people out there who are tired of shitshows in all manners of color and firmness.

I'm trying to be hopeful that after a falloff, when only the people that care are left, there will still be enough people willing to go out there and actually do something different. It's just a matter of who can find a model that works. Somebody's gonna know. Written media isn't going anywhere IMO. It is the cheapest, quickest thing to produce. I think all of this video stuff is a bubble waiting to pop. There is always going to be a need for people who can write compellingly and compile information effectively. Youtube still isn't exactly a safe place to make money, either. And often the things you have to do are detrimental to you, or have nothing to do with what you actually do. That can't last. People on both sides are going to tire of that eventually. It's still kind of new to everyone. Judging by general attitudes, that is indeed coming. "Youtuber" is such a dirty word now. And it's different from before, when nobody thought it was a real job. They know it's a real job. They just hate them for that job. What it is and what it actually adds to things.

Just mechanically speaking, writing has the capacity to reach the largest number of people. I say let the ones who actually care enough to do it, do it, and let everyone else jump ship for the new shit. Let em go. The quality/quantity ratio fell off a long time ago. We're hitting a point where you gotta be pretty special to stay around with text. Which on one hand is sad and scary, and likely to cause a lot of damage, but on the other hand might be exactly the distillation we need. Not sayin I'm happy about it.

At some point you've got to wonder who's to blame for it. If you ask me, we all need to change our habits in terms of what we give our time and money to. I'm guilty of being uselessly judgemental - I'm a picky bastard. I just don't like things. I don't get why people like all of these things and stuff that are objectively terrible.    But I do try to support the things I like, which is why I buy into TPU. I think that's pretty much gonna have to be how it is... for everyone. And there needs to be an understanding with audiences that this stuff was NEVER free. Advertising has made us all almost completely oblivious to that. At some point the wake-up call is going to be a real bitch.

People aren't dumb. We'll all be on the same page with it eventually.

One thing that will never change are younger audiences. But the thing about young audiences is that they don't have a lot of disposable income. And inevitably they get older, more cynical, and increasingly more fed up with everything. But they have more to give for things that do interest them. But as it stands right now, there's little out there that's really FOR them, you know? Everyone shoots for the moon going for that young gamer market. Nobody's looking much at the people who are past that point.

I dunno... can't pretend to have any answers to it. Random thoughts on the state of the internet. We're kind of in a weird place. I think things are changing again just like they did roughly 10 years ago. No telling what comes next. Big gains and big losses are a guarantee though. I'm holding out for whatever comes next. Been around long enough to know that it doesn't take long before we're looking at a totally different internet. The landscape is always going through these huge shifts because of how fast information moves.


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## gamefoo21 (Mar 11, 2020)

AsRock said:


> This iis what kinda pisses me off with this place, so much hate and don't see any of you who are bitching trying to make video's for TPU,  trying to keep bringing up less done stuff or put a fresh look on things gets harder over time even more so when you have to watch every word you say never mind the other ton of youtube rules.



Nah... No I'm not going out of my way to build over built loop, so I can do real thermal testing and proudly trotting myself out to Wizz to let me post the content here.

Geez... I actually dislike videos. Give me text and photos any damn day.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> I like GN just like I like TPU.... He shouldn't be calling out other peoples test results or methods though its uncalled for.


Again, Steve is taking himself too seriously and really needs to tone it down a notch or two.


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## ratirt (Mar 11, 2020)

The EGO is growing with more "likes" as usual. I watch this and that, listen to their conclusions but it would seem, they are not always right and sometimes they go overboard with their "ideas" of how things should look like. You can listen and watch but you got your own brain to process stuff right?


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## kapone32 (Mar 11, 2020)

The problem I see with this and the reason I do not watch everything that GN makes is for me "Tech Jesus" has become intoxicated by the fumes of his own conceit. He is not alone as there are a few other channels that exhibit this type of behaviour.


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## EarthDog (Mar 11, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> The consumer of this sort of content should be smart enough to know what scenarios the testing is done in most applies to them.


That's the problem though... a majority of consumers are do not know enough to make that call and rely on reviews to cover things the right way. Hell, half the people here don't know the 'best' way to do some things.

In the end, I think his method improved on some things and is off on others.


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## GlacierNine (Mar 11, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> GN made that jump a while ago but I don't recall Linus ever saying that (I'm not doubting he did say it)


? The last AskGN had Steve outright saying he never wants to be as big and all-encompassing as Linus is, and that he's glad Linus does what he does so that GN doesn't have to.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 11, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> The problem I see with this and the reason I do not watch everything that GN makes is for me "Tech Jesus" has become intoxicated by the fumes of his own conceit. He is not alone as there are a few other channels that exhibit this type of behaviour.



That's what I mean by arrogance, narcissism


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## dirtyferret (Mar 11, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Unfortunately I feel like print is slowly dying especially with so many people using ad blockers etc. The other issues is some of my favorite print sites either dying or becoming a joke over the last decade.
> I really really liked Tom's Hardware back in the early to mid 2000s even prior to building my first custom pc and now they are a shell of their former self imo.
> 
> Other than TPU I really only like anandtech these days although some of the headline stories here make me roll my eyes but you get that with every site unfortunately trying to get clicks.



They have been moving to primarily video reviews for a while which sucks as you can study the information far easier on print without watching Steve play with his hair for 20 minutes.



gamefoo21 said:


> Sorry he shits on Radeons and AMDs handling of Radeons a little too often.



I honestly find him to be a Ryzen fan boy at times but I don't watch his GPU reviews, it's too easy to find GPU reviews in print on the web.


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