# (cross posted from F@H forum) Newbie with some questions...



## LightningZ71 (Feb 11, 2015)

Hello all,

I've decided to return to distributed computing after a decade long break. Back when seti@home got going, I was an enthusiastic supporter, starting a team in my home town among my friends and getting my employer to donate after hours time on their non-essential systems to the project. That all eventually came to an end as I got married and had kids. Fast forward to today, I'm finally finding myself with some time on my hands, and a bit of a budget to put towards a hobby. I'd like to get back into supporting distributed computing again.

This is what I'll be starting with:
HP Proliant ML350 G5 (currently 1 X Xeon 5430, quad core, 2.66ghz, 6mb l2; 12 GB ram, lots of hard disk space: this will be doing double duty as the home file and media server, I have plans to get the second processor kit to up it to 8 cores)
3 X Dell OptiPlex 780 (one Q8400, 2 with Pentium dual cores, though, I'm soon getting two more Q8400s, 4GB ram each)
1 X HP PC with an earlier Core II dual core and 4GB ram

My best GPU is an old, cheap Geforce 210. I realize that its almost useless for GPU processing.

I have a couple of questions:
1) I can get three Geforce GT730s for the Proliant server (its got 3 X PCI-E X8 slots for them) for dirt cheap. While they aren't computing powerhouses, they have a later model GPU core (Keppler) which supports OpenCL and CUDA 3.5, so they should be useful for a few more years. They're also low power and not too heavy on heat generation (and I hear that the cores overclock well enough). I can't go overboard with high draw video cards as I am going to run into the limits on the electrical circuit to the office/media room where this is all going to be installed. One day, I'll run a new 20 amp circuit into that room, but that's a bit pricey at the moment.

2) Is it worth it to go into F@H with these systems with almost a total lack of GPU performance? Is WCG better for CPU only systems?

I also noticed that a several of you were into high core count systems. If things go well for me with the Proliant that I have, I'm considering spending some hobby budget on this particular system from www.savemyserver.com

HP DL580 G5 4 X Xeon X7460 Hex core 2.4Ghz processors, 32 GB ram $766
That's 24 cores and 8 PCI-E slots with an option for three more if I buy the bus expansion adapter.
I just can't beat that price per core no matter where I go to look. While I know that those are essentially Core 2 based Xeons, they are still decent with respect to throughput.
Also, if it looks like CPU processing is just not getting it done for any of the projects by later this year when I go to buy, I can instead just get one with 4 X L7345 xeons (the lower power ones to reduce the power draw) and 32 GB ram for $286 and get the PCI-E extender and put my money into better GPUs.

Any thoughts on that system?


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## Norton (Feb 11, 2015)

Welcome and thanks for your interest! 

Crunching performance depends on quite a few variables so while core count is a good start towards decent output it is not the only thing to consider....

@xvi runs some older servers and he may be able to assist with performance estimates on your current or projected system ideas. Personally, I believe that a socket 1366 or G34 Opteron based system should be your minimum for a server OR a socket 1155/AM3+ system for a desktop. The older systems tend to use more power for less output than newer, but not necessarily _newest_ systems 

As mentioned in your other thread, using the Team threads for questions and feedback will probably get you a better response since Team members are usually around and monitor those threads.

Our WCG Team thread:
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/tpus-wcg-boinc-team.85784/


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## LightningZ71 (Feb 11, 2015)

Well, budget is still a big concern.  The big box will be doing double duty, both with DC and with being the home server.  So, when/if I purchase the DL580 (depending on how things go with the ML350), it'll be because its the best bang for the buck out there.  24 cores under the Xeon L series (if I opt for getting separate CPUs later, 16 starting off), for that era, was quite a lot of computing power for not a whole lot of power.  Those processors are TDP at 65 watts each, giving 260 watts for the processors.  That's roughly 10 watts per core.  Unless the performance is just terrible per core, which is possible, I still think that the throughput per watt will be highly worth it.  And, if it turns out that doing the CPU route just isn't the way to go, I can load the machine up with up to 10 (need one slot for the iSCSI adapter) GT 730 Kepler cards, still be within the PSU budget, and crank out GPU units.  The main thing that the DL580 brings is flexibility for a low price.


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## xvi (Feb 11, 2015)

Norton said:


> @xvi runs some older servers and he may be able to assist with performance estimates on your current or projected system ideas.


Was already writing my reply when you tagged me. 


LightningZ71 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've decided to return to distributed computing after a decade long break. Back when seti@home got going, I was an enthusiastic supporter, starting a team in my home town among my friends and getting my employer to donate after hours time on their non-essential systems to the project. That all eventually came to an end as I got married and had kids. Fast forward to today, I'm finally finding myself with some time on my hands, and a bit of a budget to put towards a hobby. I'd like to get back into supporting distributed computing again.


Welcome back! 



LightningZ71 said:


> My best GPU is an old, cheap Geforce 210. I realize that its almost useless for GPU processing.


There's no GPU work for World Community Grid at the moment, so if you want to put it to work, you'd have to run it under Folding@Home. While it's true that it won't have much in the way of performance, it *is* still doing work. Whether or not it's worth it to run it depends on who you ask. On one side of the coin, it's an older generation, lower end card. On the other side of the coin, any result is a welcomed result. I think it's a bit of a toss up. Power consumption would be minimal, but so would output. For me, I'd consider a newer mid-range card if you were wanting to contribute to Folding@Home.
In my opinion, it's not so much that it's an entry-level card, but more that it's a few generations behind. I don't think performance per watt would be all that great, even though there aren't many watts used.



LightningZ71 said:


> I have a couple of questions:
> 1) I can get three Geforce GT730s for the Proliant server (its got 3 X PCI-E X8 slots for them) for dirt cheap. While they aren't computing powerhouses, they have a later model GPU core (Keppler) which supports OpenCL and CUDA 3.5, so they should be useful for a few more years. They're also low power and not too heavy on heat generation (and I hear that the cores overclock well enough). I can't go overboard with high draw video cards as I am going to run into the limits on the electrical circuit to the office/media room where this is all going to be installed. One day, I'll run a new 20 amp circuit into that room, but that's a bit pricey at the moment.


True, not powerhouses, but they should be quite efficient. I'd check in with the F@H group to see if there's an estimated PPD to expect out of three of them. I'd be interested to know what kind of PPD a single GPU for the same price as the three 730s would bring in. I would expect ppd/watt to favor the 730s and ppd/$ to favor the single GPU, but you never know.
My only real concern is that if you decided in the future that you wanted to increase your GPU compute potential, you'd have to toss one or more of your GPUs for a better one. If you picked up a single GPU, you could just expand down the line.



LightningZ71 said:


> 2) Is it worth it to go into F@H with these systems with almost a total lack of GPU performance? Is WCG better for CPU only systems?


Like I say, it depends on who you ask. For me, if new GPUs are an option, I'd skip the GT 210. Workunits will likely take a while to complete. If you're thinking of sticking with the 210 for a while, you could run it and see what kind of performance you get and make your decision based on that. I myself wouldn't expect it to be worth it, but that's a very subjective question.


You didn't really ask anything about the systems you already have, but I wanted to take some time to comment on them.


LightningZ71 said:


> HP Proliant ML350 G5 (currently 1 X Xeon 5430, quad core, 2.66ghz, 6mb l2; 12 GB ram, lots of hard disk space: this will be doing double duty as the home file and media server, I have plans to get the second processor kit to up it to 8 cores)


I have a DL180 G5 that has similar specs. Dual Xeon E5450. Loaded with hard drives, it uses about 250 watts at the wall (I think. I can break out the kill-a-watt to confirm that later if you'd like) and does about 5k PPD. I've had it offline because the noise was starting to get to me. I don't consider this machine too terribly power efficient, although it's better (or at least about the same) as my FX 8350 rig at roughly the same wattage. What made me happy was that I was able to put it together for about $260. Buy in price is quite good, ppd/watt could be better.



LightningZ71 said:


> 3 X Dell OptiPlex 780 (one Q8400, 2 with Pentium dual cores, though, I'm soon getting two more Q8400s, 4GB ram each)


Same architecture as above, so similar performance. Each one should bring in half of what your server above does, give or take. I'd expect ppd/$ and ppd/watt to be less than the server.



LightningZ71 said:


> 1 X HP PC with an earlier Core II dual core and 4GB ram


Still about the same architecture, so more of the same I think.



LightningZ71 said:


> I'm considering spending some hobby budget on this particular system from www.savemyserver.com
> HP DL580 G5 4 X Xeon X7460 Hex core 2.4Ghz processors, 32 GB ram $766
> That's 24 cores and 8 PCI-E slots with an option for three more if I buy the bus expansion adapter.


I'm not familiar with the X7460, but CPU-world seems to say it's basically a 6-core Core II CPU that they went back and stuck on a Socket 604 package? That.. seems.. weird.
Also, that's a _lot_ of RAM. 24 WCG workunits should fit in about 4GB of RAM pretty comfortably. If it's cheap (which it likely is, since it's likely DDR2 FB-DIMMs)







Assuming it scales linearly, it'd probably be a ~12,000 ppd system. I'd really suggest looking at a dual Xeon E55xx or E56xx system. My E55-something system was seeing about 3000-3500 PPD on a single ~80-90w quad-core ~2.6GHz. A few people here have built dual Nehalem hex-core Xeon systems for pretty reasonable prices. I was intending to join the ranks of dual Nehalem users with a HP Z600 workstation, but it's been crashing quite a bit and won't boot now. In theory, a dual Nehalem/Westmere hex-core setup should be do-able in the $300-400 range.


There's a lot of theorycrafting that can be done. Harpertown Xeons are pretty good if power consumption isn't a concern, but with your budget, I'd take a good look at some dual or quad LGA1366 setups. You could probably get more bang for your buck out of them.


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## LightningZ71 (Feb 11, 2015)

I'm still sniffing around for other potential setups.  The savemyserver.com site just blew me away with the prices and configurations that they could give.  Why 32GB of ram for the DL580?  Because its maybe $80 for it.  The price per GB of ram is just crazy, figured I'd get it with the package.

I went sniffing around some benchmarking sites and it definitely seems to hold true that the Nehalem generation Xeons, from even the very first ones, just absolutely blow away the earlier Core II based Xeons in per core transaction and thread performance.  If I can get half the number of cores for the same price, I'll definitely come out ahead in the long run.  I guess that I need to go looking for some more server recycling sites to see if any of them are offering decently priced gear.  Given the performance jump, however, I think that even modestly specced systems will wind up way out of my league.

The other route that I can take is to get the DL580 anyway and spec it with 4 of the L series xeon quad core processors and low power memory and instead load it up with GeForce Gt 730 GPUs.  I can get ten in there, giving one CPU core per GPU to feed work units, and leaving two cores open for server administration duties.   A server with 4 X L7345 and 16GB of RAM is $246.  If I buy the GT 730s in bulk, I can likely get a deal for them at about $50 a piece, that's ~$746 for a 10 GPU rig that can still function as a home server as well.  I have to think that 10 X GT 730 can do more DC work than a single $500 video card or a pair of $250 ones.


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## xvi (Feb 11, 2015)

LightningZ71 said:


> Why 32GB of ram for the DL580? Because its maybe $80 for it. The price per GB of ram is just crazy, figured I'd get it with the package.


DDR2 FB-DIMMs are cheap. Should be cheaper than that, I think. Haven't checked recently though.


LightningZ71 said:


> I guess that I need to go looking for some more server recycling sites to see if any of them are offering decently priced gear. Given the performance jump, however, I think that even modestly specced systems will wind up way out of my league.


If you can find a local recycler, definitely hit them up. It's probably going to be about $60-80 to ship any server.
I like to nab my stuff from eBay, personally. My DL180 was about $160 shipped because it only had one slow E5405 (4 core, 2GHz). Bought two E5450s (4 core, 3GHz) and a spare heatsink for about $100 total and ended up with a server as good as/better than the $400-500 ones. I guess resellers don't want to spend the time to upgrade them or something.


LightningZ71 said:


> The other route that I can take is to get the DL580 anyway and spec it with 4 of the L series xeon quad core processors and low power memory and instead load it up with GeForce Gt 730 GPUs. I can get ten in there, giving one CPU core per GPU to feed work units, and leaving two cores open for server administration duties. A server with 4 X L7345 and 16GB of RAM is $246. If I buy the GT 730s in bulk, I can likely get a deal for them at about $50 a piece, that's ~$746 for a 10 GPU rig that can still function as a home server as well. I have to think that 10 X GT 730 can do more DC work than a single $500 video card or a pair of $250 ones.


Rescue My Server didn't seem like they had the _greatest_ prices ever. eBay has the 6-core Xeon E7460 for $30 per processor. (Just noticed that VRMs are separate, but still). If you can find a good base to build off of, that might be a cheaper route for that option.

If you want to cram a bunch of GPUs in to one system, I'd look for a used cryptocurrency mining rig. That's basically exactly what they're for and the market for such computers should be sufficiently crashed (and therefore cheap maybe?). ASRock made a motherboard specifically for this. Might be worth looking in to.


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Feb 11, 2015)

If you want to do straight cpu work ie: Wcg more cores/threads =. Also you can build your own server type rig. I just priced out a dual LGA 1366 mobo with 2x x5550 Xeon's for $210. I may pick up a couple of those for myself and later change the cpu's out for X5670's. Also complete Fx8350 crunching setups can be had for under $400 new with everything except hdd.


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## BUCK NASTY (Feb 11, 2015)

Stay away from F@H with a CPU based rig, unless you have some mid/high end GPU's to fold with. WCG would be your best bet for a CPU based system(software runs real smooth). I would avoid anything less than a 750ti for F@H and running under a Linux environment is highly recommended.


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## BUCK NASTY (Feb 11, 2015)

xvi said:


>



I love it @xvi . Just plug in the GPU's and F#%king money just pours out of the cards! What model GPU is that again???? LOL

Crap...double post..


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## xvi (Feb 12, 2015)

ThE_MaD_ShOt said:


> Also complete Fx8350 crunching setups can be had for under $400 new with everything except hdd.


For pure compute purposes, I think I would have trouble recommending an AMD FX CPU over an older Xeon setup. My Xeon x55?? ~2.66GHz quad core (can't remember exactly what's in it) machine rather well and and those processors are rather inexpensive.


BUCK NASTY said:


> Just plug in the GPU's and F#%king money just pours out of the cards! What model GPU is that again????


6x Titan Z. Oh whoops! Money goes the wrong direction that way.


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Feb 12, 2015)

Yes the 4c / 8t older Xeons are rather cheap to buy, it's the rest that you need that to get it running that can get expensive.  Dual 1366 boards aren't really cheap unless you happen across one by chance. I was lucky and got my combo at a great price when I got it. But I do get what your saying buddy.


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## Arjai (Jul 23, 2015)

I wonder, did you guys scare him away?

He had not even started Crunching, or Folding. Everyone here pretty much said his stuff was junk!

He would have been pushing Pie in WCG and 10 730's? He may have only been able to do one job per day but, that would be 10 jobs a day!!

After a month of that, he probably would be ready for some changes, power bill can do that.

But, no. I have not seen him in either of the teams milestones or pie posts and if you click on his name, he has not visited since his last post.

I know, nobody seriously called him out, nor degraded him in any way. Plus, solid information was given. BUT, VERY little was said about HOW EVERY POINT COUNTS FOR SCIENCE!!

The conversation went right towards PPD.

Perhaps we can welcome folks with a little more WELCOME!!



Am I wrong?


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## xvi (Jul 23, 2015)

You do have a point. Could have been a bit more "Welcome to the team, we'd love to have you!"

I do think there's a point at which PPD/watt just isn't worth it. My little ARM media box does about 850 RAC at ~9 watts and can be easily acquired for about $80. I think the only quam I had was with the Pentium Ds. Assuming the Pentium D rig does about the same as the ARM (my C2D laptops do ~1100 RAC, so I think it's feasible), and also assuming it does somewhere between 150-200 watts, that's ~$10-15 a month in electricity costs. Even best case scenario for the P4, the ARM box would pay for itself in ~10 months if it completely replaced the P4. Even the Xeons he had don't match that for efficiency, but it's easier to justify a single machine producing a lot of points.


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## Heaven7 (Jul 23, 2015)

Arjai said:


> Am I wrong?


I hope he wasn't scared away, surely nobody here intended to do so. Or wanted him to think his stuff was junk. He's probably just looking around elsewhere right now, looking for more recommendations and hopefully will be back to tell us the information he gathered. I know that every point counts, but I believe that @LightningZ71 is willing to crunch for more than just a few points. 
I can say without a doubt that our team warmly welcomes any new member and offers great assistance with anything. I did experience all of that for sure.
PPD or not, in the end it's all about helping science move along. If Lightning should be back with us, let's roll out the "Welcome" mat for him and let him step inside. We need you - join us and have fun!


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