# Intel "Alder Lake-S" Due for September 2021



## btarunr (Jan 25, 2021)

2021 is shaping up to be a big year for Intel in the DIY desktop space, with the company preparing to launch not one, but two generations of desktop processors. Having announced them in January, the 11th Gen Core "Rocket Lake-S" desktop processors in the LGA1200 package, will release to market in March, with the company claiming a restoration in gaming performance leadership away from AMD's Ryzen 5000 series. Sources tell Uniko's Hardware that the company will announce its 12th Gen successor, the Core "Alder Lake-S" in September 2021.

"Alder Lake-S" will be Intel's first mainstream desktop processor built on its new 10 nm SuperFin silicon fabrication process. The chip is expected to be a "hybrid" processor, combining an equal number of larger "Golden Cove" cores, and smaller "Gracemont" cores, to offer significantly improved energy efficiency. Built in the new Socket LGA1700 package, "Alder Lake-S" is expected to feature more general-purpose SoC connectivity than LGA1200 chips. It will also herald new platform standards, such as DDR5 memory and possibly even mainstreaming of ATX12VO. The processor will launch alongside new Intel 600-series chipset. AMD's response is expected to be the "Zen 4" microarchitecture, a new silicon built on the 5 nm process, and the new AM5 socket that introduces DDR5 memory support.



 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Jan 25, 2021)

2 launches within 6 months really shows Intel as grasping at straws out of sheer desperation.


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Jan 25, 2021)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> 2 launches within 6 months really shows Intel as grasping at straws out of sheer desperation.



Intel overclocked their business plan for product releases from 0.5 generations per year to 2 generations per year. That's an impressive 300% boost in performance.

I honestly hope that Alder Lake S is actually not a joke. I'm tired of seeing Intel recycle their own e-waste for years on end, I haven't wanted to buy a consumer Intel processor since Skylake in 2016.


----------



## Max(IT) (Jan 25, 2021)

Who is going to buy in March a CPU that will be replaced in September ?


----------



## dicktracy (Jan 25, 2021)

The only CPU that’s worth buying this year


----------



## piloponth (Jan 25, 2021)

This big.LITTLE architecture is so stupid to me in desktop. There will be tons of bugs on both sides (CPU and operating system) in this first generation.

And in desktop this is not needed at all. Who cares, that light-load tasks are consuming 1-5W instead of 5-20W in the desktop?


----------



## watzupken (Jan 25, 2021)

What interests me is not Alder Lake, but the Gracemont cores by itself. I think this will be a very good replacement to the Gemini Lake chips when it comes to ultra low power systems. Will have to see how Alder Lake performs because I am not convinced that big/little config is meant for say a high power desktop.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 25, 2021)

Really Intel?






Really?
Are they _better _too?


----------



## 1d10t (Jan 25, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Really Intel?
> 
> View attachment 185506
> 
> ...



Silicone is too slow for Intel mightiest 10nm.


----------



## MDDB (Jan 25, 2021)

1d10t said:


> Silicone is too slow for Intel mightiest 10nm.


Silicone is...


----------



## TumbleGeorge (Jan 25, 2021)

watzupken said:


> What interests me is not Alder Lake, but the Gracemont cores by itself. I think this will be a very good replacement to the Gemini Lake chips when it comes to ultra low power systems. Will have to see how Alder Lake performs because I am not convinced that big/little config is meant for say a high power desktop.


Yes, Gracemont will have more modern instructions than it's predecessors.
Intel’s next-gen Alder Lake-S “Gracemont” core CPU architecture to support AVX/AVX2, AVX-VNNI instruction sets​But not sure for the Pentium and Celeron series with only Gracemont  Atom cores. If has plans to do it has possibilities up to 8C/8T Pentium first consumer model with more cores twice than previous 4C/4T max.


----------



## ZoneDymo (Jan 25, 2021)

dicktracy said:


> The only CPU that’s worth buying this year



comments like this make it more obvious that you are just a troll rather then a fanboy.
because if you read the article it mentions 2 of Intel's upcoming CPU lines AND AMD's upcoming cpus as well... so your comment makes no sense...
come on man, put some effort into it jeez.



piloponth said:


> This big.LITTLE architecture is so stupid to me in desktop. There will be tons of bugs on both sides (CPU and operating system) in this first generation.
> 
> And in desktop this is not needed at all. Who cares, that light-load tasks are consuming 1-5W instead of 5-20W in the desktop?



ermm I do? I think it would be pretty sweet if the cpu consumes next to nothing 90% of the time when one is just browsing the web or so and then put the better stuff to work when you do actually play a game or so.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 25, 2021)

dicktracy said:


> The only CPU that’s worth buying this year



The only *Intel *CPU that’s worth buying this year.
Fixed.


----------



## 1d10t (Jan 25, 2021)

Prima.Vera said:


> The only *Intel *CPU that’s worth buying this year.
> Fixed.


----------



## Fatalfury (Jan 25, 2021)

oh yea Alderlake Announcement  Date "September 2021"

Laptop SKUs  = December 2021
Desktop AlderLake S 10nm   =  March 2022
CPU in Stock and at MSRP =  2H 2022


----------



## Mats (Jan 25, 2021)

Imagine a time when each new CPU launched from either brand becomes the fastest one on the market, what a (pipe) dream.

I dunno if the mix of core types is a good thing, but I'm excited to see what it brings.
*Is there a name for this in Intel's world?* I'm so tired of that ARM reference haha..


Vayra86 said:


> Really?
> Are they _better _too?


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Cobain (Jan 25, 2021)

Max(IT) said:


> Who is going to buy in March a CPU that will be replaced in September ?



Anyone that wants to upgrade from a quad or a 6 Core on a z490 motherboard, to a 8 Core or just a faster 6 Core. Or someone that NEEDS a PC right now, not on september.

Unless you think that paying 360€ for a 5600x is Smart. That's if you can even find one.

Zen 3 is great, but the lack of chips and the crazy high prices made them a bad option


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 25, 2021)

ZoneDymo said:


> comments like this make it more obvious that you are just a troll rather then a fanboy.
> because if you read the article it mentions 2 of Intel's upcoming CPU lines AND AMD's upcoming cpus as well... so your comment makes no sense...
> come on man, put some effort into it jeez.


It's a joke, lol calm down. 



> ermm I do? I think it would be pretty sweet if the cpu consumes next to nothing 90% of the time when one is just browsing the web or so and then put the better stuff to work when you do actually play a game or so.


If you are worried about 2-3 watts of power simply lowering your screen brightness will save you more power then this chip will, not to mention all the energy that went INTO the chip to make it in the first place. Buying a new product to save a small amount of energy is the definition of enviromental virtue signaling.


----------



## Mats (Jan 25, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Buying a new product to save a small amount of energy is the definition of enviromental virtue signaling.


Maybe it's not the only thing he's looking for in a new CPU.


----------



## Turmania (Jan 25, 2021)

Given Apple`s huge success with M1 on 5nm process, I have very high expectations for upcoming Zen 4 on 5nm process, I would probably advice everyone to wait on that unless it is really urgent.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 25, 2021)

Mats said:


> Maybe it's not the only thing he's looking for in a new CPU.


Maybe he's a martian. Who knows. The argument he presented only discusses power usage, nothing else. Speculating on other reasons with no information to back them up is pointless. 

If you are upgrading to a new device to "save energy" you are a fool who has bought into green marketing that ONLY looks at energy used and not energy to manufacture and transport. BIG.little is not going to be a huge selling point on desktops, where energy use is nto a concern due to power budgets, but rather heat output, where idle is already not a problem. Modern chips already idle at 5-6w when not doing anything.


----------



## ZoneDymo (Jan 25, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Maybe he's a martian. Who knows. The argument he presented only discusses power usage, nothing else. Speculating on other reasons with no information to back them up is pointless.
> 
> If you are upgrading to a new device to "save energy" you are a fool who has bought into green marketing that ONLY looks at energy used and not energy to manufacture and transport. BIG.little is not going to be a huge selling point on desktops, where energy use is nto a concern due to power budgets, but rather heat output, where idle is already not a problem. Modern chips already idle at 5-6w when not doing anything.



orrr maybe I was in the market for a new cpu anyway and I like the idea that it can turn basically part of itself off for lighter tasks to reduce power consumption?


----------



## L'Eliminateur (Jan 25, 2021)

The title is misleading, alder lake S will be ANNOUNCED in september, so it's not really "due in september" as the CPU will be nonexistant until 2H2022.

which is different as AMD will have a Zen 4 cpu by this year(IF they make good on their timeline)

BTW: we've reached new levels of patheticism, where companies announce the announcement dates (both AMD and Intel do it)


----------



## Makaveli (Jan 25, 2021)

Max(IT) said:


> Who is going to buy in March a CPU that will be replaced in September ?



You will also need a need motherboard and ram for Alderlake so buying into Rocket Lake S kind of a dead end.


----------



## cst1992 (Jan 25, 2021)

I thought Alder Lake was 7nm and due in 2023?
What happened to that?
Or are these the larger "Extreme Edition" chips??


----------



## Makaveli (Jan 25, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> I thought Alder Lake was 7nm and due in 2023?
> What happened to that?
> Or are these the larger "Extreme Edition" chips??


No

Intel just said they fixed 7nm.
Alder Lake is 10nm.


----------



## L'Eliminateur (Jan 25, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> You will also need a need motherboard and ram for Alderlake so buying into Rocket Lake S kind of a dead end.


Buying ANYTHING this year is a dead end, DDR5 is coming by the end of the year and whilst it's going to take time to ramp up anything DDR4 is EOL by now, same thing when DDR4 came out, the year before it's a dead year for the old tech.

I do wonder if AMD will launch a transitional CPU, as with chiplets they could "theoretically" release a Zen 4 with DDR4 support(by using the existing zen2-3 cIOD) -unless zen4 chiplets use a totally different infinity fabric-(maybe wider, surely it will be much faster to take advatage of DDR5 BW) without much hassle. Or they'll simply go all in on zen4/am5 with a new clean design free of AM4 legacy(i think it will be this option)


----------



## Makaveli (Jan 25, 2021)

L'Eliminateur said:


> I do wonder if AMD will launch a transitional CPU, as with chiplets they could "theoretically" release a Zen 4 with DDR4 support(by using the existing zen2-3 cIOD) -unless zen4 chiplets use a totally different infinity fabric-(maybe wider, surely it will be much faster to take advatage of DDR5 BW) without much hassle. Or they'll simply go all in on zen4/am5 with a new clean design free of AM4 legacy(i think it will be this option)



Instead of Zen 4 with with DD4 I wondering if they will go the other way around. So to test the waters on the AM5 platform and do Zen 3+ on AM5 with DDR5, So by the time Zen 4 is launching in 2022 they already have  the boards and memory on the platform which has seen 6 months on the market already.


----------



## Mats (Jan 25, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Maybe he's a martian. Who knows. The argument he presented only discusses power usage, nothing else. Speculating on other reasons with no information to back them up is pointless.
> 
> If you are upgrading to a new device to "save energy" you are a fool who has bought into green marketing that ONLY looks at energy used and not energy to manufacture and transport.


He only said what "would be sweet", and that he cares, he never said anything about upgrading at that point.
You started speculating about buying, no one else.


----------



## L'Eliminateur (Jan 25, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> Instead of Zen 4 with with DD4 I wondering if they will go the other way around. So to test the waters on the AM5 platform and do Zen 3+ on AM5 with DDR5, So by the time Zen 4 is launching in 2022 they already have  the boards and memory on the platform which has seen 6 months on the market already.


Well they've sais that Zen5 will be out this year(maybe Q1 of 2022), so i don't think there will be enough time to port zen3 to DDR5, considering the lack of stock and time it takes for a respin i don't think it would be wise to waste resources on a "+" minor improvement("minor" per se, it would probably require considerable engineering to optimize for ddr5) and further deviate fab capacity from Zen4 directly


----------



## Mats (Jan 25, 2021)

L'Eliminateur said:


> Well they've sais that Zen5 will be out this year(maybe Q1 of 2022)...


Who are "they"? AMD? Like I said before, it sounds unlikely to me.
Though I'm strictly talking about Ryzen, not Epyc, etc.



Mats said:


> AMD has been launching its Ryzen models with more than 12 months between. I just looked at review dates here, as they usually are published when NDA ends (I'd assume).
> 
> 1800X - 2 March 2017
> 
> ...



Edit: Or, launching Zen 4 on desktop this year is the very reason for why Ryzen 5000 has so few models. (not only low supply)
Let's say AMD launched those four 5000 models just to stay competitive, but they never intended to replace the whole 3000 lineup, that will happen with Zen 4.
This would also work as a plan B. If they'd expect delays with Zen 4, they'd still have the quite recent Ryzen 5000, and could in turn launch more budget models for instance.


----------



## blu3dragon (Jan 25, 2021)

Fatalfury said:


> oh yea Alderlake Announcement  Date "September 2021"
> 
> Laptop SKUs  = December 2021
> Desktop AlderLake S 10nm   =  March 2022
> CPU in Stock and at MSRP =  2H 2022



This seems the more likely scenario.  I need to google a little harder, but wasn't Rocket lake coming in 2020, 6 months after comet lake at one point?


----------



## efikkan (Jan 25, 2021)

I'm not convinced Alder Lake-S will be available in volumes in September 2021.



piloponth said:


> This big.LITTLE architecture is so stupid to me in desktop. There will be tons of bugs on both sides (CPU and operating system) in this first generation.
> 
> And in desktop this is not needed at all. Who cares, that light-load tasks are consuming 1-5W instead of 5-20W in the desktop?


Yes, this will be very challenging for the OS, and perhaps even a few applications will behave sub-optimally.
But unfortunately, core count sells.



L'Eliminateur said:


> Buying ANYTHING this year is a dead end, DDR5 is coming by the end of the year


There is always the next big thing.
DDR5 will be offering more bandwidth, not lower latency. So I don't expect it to be a big deal for the desktop. Servers on the other hand…



L'Eliminateur said:


> and whilst it's going to take time to ramp up anything DDR4 is EOL by now, same thing when DDR4 came out, the year before it's a dead year for the old tech.


I think you should do a search for what EOL means. 
DDR4 will be made for years to come.


----------



## L'Eliminateur (Jan 25, 2021)

Mats said:


> Who are "they"? AMD? Like I said before, it sounds unlikely to me.
> Though I'm strictly talking about Ryzen, not Epyc, etc.
> 
> 
> ...


"they" is AMD itself, but i've been rechecking the news sources just now and it appears that indeed Zen 4 has slipped to 2022 and there will be a zen3 refresh in Q3 of this year



efikkan said:


> DDR5 will be offering more bandwidth, not lower latency. So I don't expect it to be a big deal for the desktop. Servers on the other hand…


every DDR generation has not offered lower latency, so that's a moot point, the goal has always been "more BW, same latency", but DDR5 has big improvements on BW, density and parallelismo(being 2x32b channels changes a lot) , so it will be a big deal on desktop as well if only because all the platforms move to DDR5 so you'll have to upgrade just as well as when DDR4 came out.


----------



## efikkan (Jan 25, 2021)

L'Eliminateur said:


> every DDR generation has not offered lower latency, so that's a moot point, the goal has always been "more BW, same latency", but DDR5 has big improvements on BW, density and parallelismo(being 2x32b channels changes a lot) , so it will be a big deal on desktop as well if only because all the platforms move to DDR5 so you'll have to upgrade just as well as when DDR4 came out.


Well, that's easy to estimate. Just look at benchmarks of HEDT vs. mainstream CPUs, and you'll se which workloads may benefit significantly from additional bandwidth (most wouldn't).


----------



## RandallFlagg (Jan 25, 2021)

efikkan said:


> I'm not convinced Alder Lake-S will be available in volumes in September 2021.



I think they are saying the chips will ship in Sep 2021.  That would mean that availability would begin about 4-6 weeks later in shipping OEM rigs and wide availability in about 3 months.  So, holiday season, 2021.

I think the biggest obstacle to getting these out there will be availability and cost of DDR5.  It's kind of a chicken and egg scenario.  There is no reason to make DDR5 DIMMs until there's something that can use it.   Shifting to something like DDR5 involves a lot more than just getting the CPU out there.

For that reason I imagine we will see this combination of Alder Lake + DDR5 from OEMs first, Dell HP Lenovo etc.  Those OEMs will seed the market for DDR5.  Then the OEM users who want to upgrade RAM would create demand for DDR5 from retailers like Newegg etc. 

I wouldn't expect a lot of supply in DIY channel for several months after the OEMs get theirs.  It's always like that with Intel to some degree anyway, but will be even more pronounced with Alder Lake needing DDR5 seeding the market so that retailers will buy and be confident that they won't have product sitting on the shelf for many months.

This also has to happen for AMD to launch DDR5 platforms.  They don't (yet) have enough of the market to effectively create the demand needed for DDR5.


----------



## B-Real (Jan 25, 2021)

dicktracy said:


> The only CPU that’s worth buying this year


Sorry, what?


----------



## pjl321 (Jan 25, 2021)

My opinion on Alder Lake is don't be fooled, this is yet another 8 core CPU from Intel. Granted the low power cores will help run simple background tasks leaving the powerful cores to tackle the hard stuff more freely, so absolutely it will be faster than simply 8 Cyprus Cove cores just on their own but by how much is a very tough call. I guess if Alder Lake has a big performance lead in single thread over Zen 3 then an 8+8 CPU would make for a great gaming chip, but how it will do against Zen 3+ and Zen 4 is another story.

But it's the other use case scenarios that are very thread heavy where I see Intel losing very badly. I don't buy into the need for low power / low heat cores when talking about desktop CPUs, I'm sure the big.LITTLE design will work well for laptops and other highly power sensitive devices but not mains powered, high performance desktop machines. Modern CPUs can already down-clock and under-volt significantly when not in use or not being pushed hard so I just don't see how these little cores are going to be all that useful for anything really.

My reasoning for why I believe big.LITTLE designs won't compete performance wise much past the number of big cores is seen in Apple's M1 benchmarks. This amazing chip has fantastic single thread performance, up there with the very best chips on the market today and easily beating one of AMD's current top mobile chips the 4900HS (I know 5000's are almost here) but when it comes to multi threading the 4900HS totally destroys the M1 chip because the M1 is only a 4+4 chip and the 4900HS is a real 8 core chip. So Intel can bring 8+8 but I am pretty sure 5900X will be faster in work loads that use 12 threads or more, then we have the 6000 refresh which will only increase this gap and then Zen 4 will like make a 8 core CPU look very much entry level.

I think we all know the real reason Intel can't produce much more than 8 big cores in the mainstream and that is because of the aging ringbus design they are still using. Clearly AMD caught them by surprise with how quickly they caught up and then how far they have pulled away. Intel simply hasn't had the time nor FAB performance to react yet. I dare say if everything was running smoothly for Intel we would already be well into 7nm Meteor Lake chips right now and would be wondering if Zen 4 might close the gap to Intel in 2022. But that is not the situation and in my opinion Intel still needs to realise this, they need to price their products better to reflect they are only mid-range now and they desperately need to move to or licence TSMC's nodes if at all possible. I know the rumours are that Intel is meant to be using TSMC for 5nm CPUs this year then 3nm CPU next year but I will believe it when I see it! I just don't see how TSMC has the capacity to help Intel when it can't produce enough wafers for it's current long term (more important) customers.

Anyway, at the end of the day this 8 core CPU (with an extra few little cores) is meant to see Intel through 2022 and I believe into 2023, at the same time AMD will be giving us 24 high performance cores in the top end Zen 4 chips. I just don't see how Intel can put up any kind of fight again anything more than an 8 core Zen 4 chip, meanwhile AMD will be offering 12 core, 16 core, 20 core and 24 core options, plus Threadripper which will be up to 96 cores! 

I just really hope Alder Lake has a massive single thread performance improvement over Zen 3 to give it the edge in many sparsely threaded allocations like Photoshop, Lightroom, etc and probably more importantly in gaming too. This should, if priced right, mean we have attractive options depending on what your usage needs are and crucially some competition so prices don't get out of hand in a monopoly again.


----------



## Arc1t3ct (Jan 26, 2021)

What a mess...

in a period of 12 months we've had 3 CPU generations, 3 different chipsets and 2 cpu sockets!!! All for the same market!! Why are we putting up with this???


----------



## pjl321 (Jan 26, 2021)

Arc1t3ct said:


> What a mess...
> 
> in a period of 12 months we've had 3 CPU generations, 3 different chipsets and 2 cpu sockets!!! All for the same market!! Why are we putting up with this???



What are you purposing, maybe a military coup of Intel?


----------



## AusWolf (Jan 26, 2021)

ZoneDymo said:


> orrr maybe I was in the market for a new cpu anyway and I like the idea that it can turn basically part of itself off for lighter tasks to reduce power consumption?


Basically any modern CPU can do that, it has nothing to do with the big.LITTLE configuration.

Besides, buying a several hundred $ part to save pennies on your monthly electricity bill is kind of pointless imo.



piloponth said:


> This big.LITTLE architecture is so stupid to me in desktop. There will be tons of bugs on both sides (CPU and operating system) in this first generation.
> 
> And in desktop this is not needed at all. Who cares, that light-load tasks are consuming 1-5W instead of 5-20W in the desktop?


I wouldn't use the word "stupid", but it's weird to say the least. With games starting to benefit from 6+ cores, I can't see this being Intel's new gaming flagship.

Not to mention the generational differences. 10-core 10th gen, then 8-core 11th gen, then 4+4-core 12th gen. What's next? The return of the dual core Core i3?


----------



## qubit (Jan 26, 2021)

That's another year until I upgrade my ancient 2700K then. <sigh>


----------



## InVasMani (Jan 26, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Basically any modern CPU can do that, it has nothing to do with the big.LITTLE configuration.
> 
> Besides, buying a several hundred $ part to save pennies on your monthly electricity bill is kind of pointless imo.
> 
> ...


It's more than that you can have different chips entirely with different fixed instruction sets on each chip big.LITTLE is actually a great design, but it'll take time to evolve much like Ryzen has taken time. It's a different approach to the same concept. Where it is different and better is like I said mixed instruction sets on mixed chiplets. You could assign specific tasks to specific chiplet designs. By doing that you could have certain chiplet designs bigger and more monolithic or smaller. If you can't see the implications of that and think outside the box you'll fail to grasp what Intel is doing and/or planning with big.LITTLE in the long term as opposed to near term. Atom architecture believe it or not are good at certain tasks in regard to silicone space, heat output, and efficiency over their x86-64 Core design and vice versa. Beyond that there is also Itanium and other designs Intel has had along the way. Intel has the ability and mix and match different IP core architecture designs together with bigLITTLE and offer perks and advantages of them all. By doing that they increase efficiency of tasks performed and offer a wider array of chip designs to consumers across various market segments. It's more complex than Nvidia with numerous SKU's of the same architecture and squeezing out AMD's GPU offers, but a similar concept with more complexity than with that and a chiplet approach. It's easy to look at it right now and feel like it's underwhelming, but people looked at the initial Ryzen architecture in much the same light and same with RNDA, but the follow ups were much more exciting. We have to see how things pan out with the design and also how well they work in practice in the right hands. If the weaker ATOM chiplet allows for better usage of the CORE chiplet especially in the right hands even if not perfect, but as a proof of concept Intel most assuredly take it steps forward in the future. 

I think imageCFG.exe will be quite useful for big.LITTLE's early chip design potentially especially dependent upon how well Windows Scheduler works and interacts in tandem with it. That tool allows you to change .exe's process affinity mask (hexadecimal value) to the specified executable, so that it always runs using the specified CPU cores. So you could assign a program to permanently run off the Atom core like a music player or browser or whatever anything you want to be more of a background process than foreground process you could essentially permanently assign with it to the ATOM chiplet cores so it doesn't bog down the CORE chiplet cores. I think big.LITTLE will mature in good ways quite firmly. I think eventually Intel could have a perimeter of smaller scale sized ATOM chiplets around a larger CORE chiplet.


----------



## AusWolf (Jan 26, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> It's more than that you can have different chips entirely with different fixed instruction sets on each chip big.LITTLE is actually a great design, but it'll take time to evolve much like Ryzen has taken time. It's a different approach to the same concept. Where it is different and better is like I said mixed instruction sets on mixed chiplets. You could assign specific tasks to specific chiplet designs. By doing that you could have certain chiplet designs bigger and more monolithic or smaller. If you can't see the implications of that and think outside the box you'll fail to grasp what Intel is doing and/or planning with big.LITTLE in the long term as opposed to near term. Atom architecture believe it or not are good at certain tasks in regard to silicone space, heat output, and efficiency over their x86-64 Core design and vice versa. Beyond that there is also Itanium and other designs Intel has had along the way. Intel has the ability and mix and match different IP core architecture designs together with bigLITTLE and offer perks and advantages of them all. By doing that they increase efficiency of tasks performed and offer a wider array of chip designs to consumers across various market segments. It's more complex than Nvidia with numerous SKU's of the same architecture and squeezing out AMD's GPU offers, but a similar concept with more complexity than with that and a chiplet approach. It's easy to look at it right now and feel like it's underwhelming, but people looked at the initial Ryzen architecture in much the same light and same with RNDA, but the follow ups were much more exciting. We have to see how things pan out with the design and also how well they work in practice in the right hands. If the weaker ATOM chiplet allows for better usage of the CORE chiplet especially in the right hands even if not perfect, but as a proof of concept Intel most assuredly take it steps forward in the future.
> 
> I think imageCFG.exe will be quite useful for big.LITTLE's early chip design potentially especially dependent upon how well Windows Scheduler works and interacts in tandem with it. That tool allows you to change .exe's process affinity mask (hexadecimal value) to the specified executable, so that it always runs using the specified CPU cores. So you could assign a program to permanently run off the Atom core like a music player or browser or whatever anything you want to be more of a background process than foreground process you could essentially permanently assign with it to the ATOM chiplet cores so it doesn't bog down the CORE chiplet cores. I think big.LITTLE will mature in good ways quite firmly. I think eventually Intel could have a perimeter of smaller scale sized ATOM chiplets around a larger CORE chiplet.


I partially agree with that. Atom really has its use cases. I myself have a compute stick that needs 3 Amps through a micro-USB feed and runs Windows 10. It's great for browsing, or watching videos that are supported by the iGPU's decoder. It's not so great for anything else, though. If these new desktop CPUs get 4 Atom cores with 4 Core cores, there won't be enough big cores for heavy tasks, while the small cores will offer very little help. For gamers and content creators, Atom cores are just a waste of die space. Of course we'll have to see it in action, and I'm very curious, but I'm not expecting much, at least not from this first attempt.


----------



## Tom Sunday (Jan 26, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> You will also need a need Motherboard and RAM for Alder Lake...


Some will buy Rocket Lake because they do not know what Alder Lake has in store. They cannot wait. The Premium Basics: A new Intel Core i9-11900K will run about $550. A matching Asus ROG Maximus XIII will be about $850. A RTX 3080 will be around $1000. 

So essentially in the end its all about the money. Surely the great many of the so-called enthusiasts here do not have the deep pockets for the above 'premium basics.' Trolls like me from under the rock most certainly do not have the money either. For that matter who today still has real spendable income anymore? 

With Alder Lake on the near horizon the hardware costs will go up even further and exponentially. Then who is buying all that hardware? Less than 1% of all worldwide computer users or enthusiasts? Remember the times of well paying US corporate jobs right out of college with 401K, pensions, paid vacations and annual bonuses are long over. Now "Work From Home" is the new norm. Show me the money!


----------



## Makaveli (Jan 26, 2021)

Tom Sunday said:


> Some will buy Rocket Lake because they do not know what Alder Lake has in store. They cannot wait. The Premium Basics: A new Intel Core i9-11900K will run about $550. A matching Asus ROG Maximus XIII will be about $850. A RTX 3080 will be around $1000.
> 
> So essentially in the end its all about the money. Surely the great many of the so-called enthusiasts here do not have the deep pockets for the above 'premium basics.' Trolls like me from under the rock most certainly do not have the money either. For that matter who today still has real spendable income anymore?
> 
> With Alder Lake on the near horizon the hardware costs will go up even further and exponentially. Then who is buying all that hardware? Less than 1% of all worldwide computer users or enthusiasts? Remember the times of well paying US corporate jobs right out of college with 401K, pensions, paid vacations and annual bonuses are long over. Now "Work From Home" is the new norm. Show me the money!


I've been doing this for a pretty long time and I don't know anyone that spends $500+ on motherboards unless they are doing it for work. Then its a workstation board with ECC memory.

lol $850 on a board that will not see any cpu's past rocket Lake S


----------



## Tom Sunday (Jan 27, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> $500+ on motherboards unless they are doing it for work. Then its a workstation board with ECC memory...lol $850 on a board that will not see any cpu's past rocket Lake S


"$850 on a board that will not see any cpu's past rocket Lake S"...Great statement and 100% on the money. Thanks! As to the cost of a mobo...last year I went  to the computer show with a guy from Fidelity Investments who always has to have the latest and the greatest. He bought a 'GODLIKE' just for gaming. I loved the board and had to handle it like a baby. Or a dream as I told myself. So there are people out there as an exception. He will never get all of the goodies out off the GODLIKE...but that's life.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Jan 27, 2021)

Tom Sunday said:


> Some will buy Rocket Lake because they do not know what Alder Lake has in store. They cannot wait. The Premium Basics: A new Intel Core i9-11900K will run about $550. A matching Asus ROG Maximus XIII will be about $850. A RTX 3080 will be around $1000.
> 
> So essentially in the end its all about the money. Surely the great many of the so-called enthusiasts here do not have the deep pockets for the above 'premium basics.' Trolls like me from under the rock most certainly do not have the money either. For that matter who today still has real spendable income anymore?
> 
> With Alder Lake on the near horizon the hardware costs will go up even further and exponentially. Then who is buying all that hardware? Less than 1% of all worldwide computer users or enthusiasts? Remember the times of well paying US corporate jobs right out of college with 401K, pensions, paid vacations and annual bonuses are long over. Now "Work From Home" is the new norm. Show me the money!



You are getting really hyperbolic man.  For most enthusiasts it looks more like $200-$300 CPU (11400 up to 11600K) + $200ish motherboard.   

GPU prices are what will kill the DIY market soon if they don't get under control.  No way would I fork up $700 to $1900 for current GPUs.  

It's almost like they intentionally want to kill the desktop, and more specifically the DIY market, with component prices so high.  Gaming laptops are a way, way, waaayy  better deal and new laptops with 3060 / 3070 are already available, with more releasing every week or so for the next month.


----------



## InVasMani (Jan 27, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I partially agree with that. Atom really has its use cases. I myself have a compute stick that needs 3 Amps through a micro-USB feed and runs Windows 10. It's great for browsing, or watching videos that are supported by the iGPU's decoder. It's not so great for anything else, though. If these new desktop CPUs get 4 Atom cores with 4 Core cores, there won't be enough big cores for heavy tasks, while the small cores will offer very little help. For gamers and content creators, Atom cores are just a waste of die space. Of course we'll have to see it in action, and I'm very curious, but I'm not expecting much, at least not from this first attempt.


The Atom cores are fine for a lot of the OS services a bit of compression and decompression along with rapid storage and other odds and ends and light program tasks and usage. Basically you've got a chip to offload all of that while you have another chip that can have close to 100% CPU usage dedicated to the game itself. I don't see it being perfect initially, but I'll bet you Intel improves it and the second iteration will improve quite a bit further. I don't think content creators are who Intel's trying to sell them to they want to compete with AM4 Ryzen the best they can til a more proper node shrink puts them in a better position to really compete more closely evenly with them again.



Tom Sunday said:


> "$850 on a board that will not see any cpu's past rocket Lake S"...Great statement and 100% on the money. Thanks! As to the cost of a mobo...last year I went  to the computer show with a guy from Fidelity Investments who always has to have the latest and the greatest. He bought a 'GODLIKE' just for gaming. I loved the board and had to handle it like a baby. Or a dream as I told myself. So there are people out there as an exception. He will never get all of the goodies out off the GODLIKE...but that's life.


So a guy from Fidelity Investments makes lots of money and spends cash like a drunken sailor who would have thought? He can probably even write it off on his taxes potentially if it's multipurpose and used for the job especially now with work from home being more common.


----------



## Tom Sunday (Jan 27, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> It's almost like they intentionally want to kill the desktop, and more specifically the DIY market...


For me at the time of my post and reading the newest "leaks" on the 11th generation pricing...I was dumbfounded with the Intel CPU and Z590 mobo pricing. And Alder Lake pricing will apparently not be too kind either. I think we agree that whatever may come down the road, the DIY market will be challenged like never before. The very thought about the "intentionally desktop market kill" by the manufacturers is worrisome as those are only driven by the $$$ and grabbing the largest market share. Hello DELL, HP and Lenovo!

The market seems to becoming even more interested in selling completed or 'all-In-one' systems rather than piecemeal components. It's more profitable. As we all know the major disadvantage of buying a pre-made PC is the cost. Laptop Thoughts: I now see 'more and more' so called "White Boxes" or base laptop systems hit the open consumer market. These have the base components such as chassis, screen, and motherboard installed. Users can then select items such as memory, drives, processors, and graphics to finalize the laptop computer. These basic laptop chassis historically were only sold to PC companies to then badge as their own systems after finishing off the component installations. This type of laptop marketing is nothing really new, but the sheer numbers are increasing expodentially. 

Sounds to me like another grab or invasion into the desktop DIY market? I had a hard day...so I be better off to play 'Metro Exodus' for a while to flush my mind. Perhaps Mom has a leftover piece of Cherry Pie upstairs in the kitchen for yours truly?


----------



## qubit (Jan 27, 2021)

@Tom Sunday Dammit, I hope you're wrong about the shift away from DIY PCs as it would be a total disaster for enthusiasts like us. We can only wait and see.

I want to upgrade my ancient 2700K (see specs) and so far, it looks like it would be worth waiting for Alder Lake in order to get something current that's built on the latest process, not a backport, like Rocket Lake. I don't need that sabotaged by a shift to complete systems only.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Jan 27, 2021)

Tom Sunday said:


> As we all know the major disadvantage of buying a pre-made PC is the cost.



Well, that used to be somewhat true, or perhaps more accurately that you got cheaper OEM rigs built with crappy motherboards / power supplies and other components with various things 'nerfed' by design from the OEM to limit RMAs. 

What I see right now though, is that it's significantly cheaper and far easier to buy a prebuilt, whether that comes from big OEMs like Dell / HP etc or smaller SI's like CyberPowerPC or iBuyPower.   The SI's tend to give better prices, but the OEMs have better warranties.  

This is new though, I built my own back in June for less than a prebuilt of similar spec and quality.  I've tried recently to spec out a prebuilt and can't really beat SI / OEM prices right now, at least not with one of the new GPUs.  



Tom Sunday said:


> Sounds to me like another grab or invasion into the desktop DIY market? I had a hard day...so I be better off to play 'Metro Exodus' for a while to flush my mind. Perhaps Mom has a leftover piece of Cherry Pie upstairs in the kitchen for yours truly?



Laptops accelerated from 65% of the market in 2019 to 75% in 2020.  I think the effect is that fewer resources are pushed into the desktop space in general from all the players.  Notice how easy it is right now to get a laptop with a 3060 or 3070, and Tiger Lake H.  

From a supplier's standpoint, it's a lot easier and cheaper for a supplier to send all their kit to a few big OEMs.  Sign contract with OEM - we will supply you with 50,000 video cards per month delivered here by Xth of the month.   Easy and straight to the point, no ambiguity as to what needs to be done.  But to that same supplier the DIY market looks more like, keeping inventory on hand in a warehouse to supply 100 different retailers with potentially 10,000 different locations with 5-10 GPUs on demand.


----------



## Tom Sunday (Jan 27, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> The Atom cores are fine for a lot of the OS services a bit of compression and decompression along with rapid storage and other odds and ends and light program tasks and usage. Basically you've got a chip to offload all of that while you have another chip that can have close to 100% CPU usage dedicated to the game itself. I don't see it being perfect initially, but I'll bet you Intel improves it and the second iteration will improve quite a bit further. I don't think content creators are who Intel's trying to sell them to they want to compete with AM4 Ryzen the best they can til a more proper node shrink puts them in a better position to really compete more closely evenly with them again.
> 
> 
> So a guy from Fidelity Investments makes lots of money...





InVasMani said:


> The Atom cores are fine for a lot of the OS services a bit of compression and decompression along with rapid storage and other odds and ends and light program tasks and usage. Basically you've got a chip to offload all of that while you have another chip that can have close to 100% CPU usage dedicated to the game itself. I don't see it being perfect initially, but I'll bet you Intel improves it and the second iteration will improve quite a bit further. I don't think content creators are who Intel's trying to sell them to they want to compete with AM4 Ryzen the best they can til a more proper node shrink puts them in a better position to really compete more closely evenly with them again.
> 
> 
> So a guy from Fidelity Investments makes lots of money...


Well Harry is a simple "Acount Manager." Not exactly high on the Fidelity exec-ladder. But at 36 still living with Mom with unlimited rights to the refrigerator and free Internet. But when with him I get to live vicariously besides having a good time. I even treat for lunch after the show at Jack in the Box. Indeed there are a lot of Harry's out there and absolutely loved by the show-dealers doing their walk and talk.



qubit said:


> @Tom Sunday Dammit, I hope you're wrong about the shift away from DIY PCs...


I was looking a bit into the future...but for the big-three (DELL, Lenovo, HP) the future cannot come early enough. Come to think...DIY will essentially never go away in its entirety, but it's current method, access and pricing will be challenged. Enthusiasts like us will most likely once the bell tolls having to reach deeper into their pockets in securing the real 'premium hardware' for their builds. In turn, I simply abhor the very thought in being forced to buy or use sub-standard hardware specifications and then those being served up cold in propiatary fashion.


----------



## r9 (Jan 28, 2021)

Tom Sunday said:


> Well Harry is a simple "Acount Manager." Not exactly high on the Fidelity exec-ladder. But at 36 still living with Mom with unlimited rights to the refrigerator and free Internet. But when with him I get to live vicariously besides having a good time. I even treat for lunch after the show at Jack in the Box. Indeed there are a lot of Harry's out there and absolutely loved by the show-dealers doing their walk and talk.
> 
> 
> I was looking a bit into the future...but for the big-three (DELL, Lenovo, HP) the future cannot come early enough. Come to think...DIY will essentially never go away in its entirety, but it's current method, access and pricing will be challenged. Enthusiasts like us will most likely once the bell tolls having to reach deeper into their pockets in securing the real 'premium hardware' for their builds. In turn, I simply abhor the very thought in being forced to buy or use sub-standard hardware specifications and then those being served up cold in propiatary fashion.


Hey this is Harry, do I know you ?


----------



## Bubster (Jan 28, 2021)

Desperate much!!! Someone in Hollywood should make a movie about Intel and call it (Desperado 2.0)


----------



## THU31 (Jan 28, 2021)

Why exactly do we need the Gracemont cores on desktop?


----------



## remunramu (Jan 29, 2021)

Max(IT) said:


> Who is going to buy in March a CPU that will be replaced in September ?


Sure AL is going to get whole next gen platform, ddr5, pcie gen5 but not only is going to be an expensive platform some might have stability/compatibility issues and such, since early adopter is always experiencing this kind of stuff.
Some people with 2-3 year+ upgrade cycle might just want to invest to RL with guaranteed system stability/compatibility also cheaper components and wait till next gen platform matured enough also cheaper enough.


----------



## DAWMan (Jan 31, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> Intel overclocked their business plan for product releases from 0.5 generations per year to 2 generations per year. That's an impressive 300% boost in performance.
> 
> I honestly hope that Alder Lake S is actually not a joke. I'm tired of seeing Intel recycle their own e-waste for years on end, I haven't wanted to buy a consumer Intel processor since Skylake in 2016.


My sentiments exactly. AMD 5000 desktop w/ APU doesn’t seem is going to materialize.
Don’t need 250 watt arc welder either.
Alder Lake will get a shot.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 31, 2021)

qubit said:


> @Tom Sunday Dammit, I hope you're wrong about the shift away from DIY PCs as it would be a total disaster for enthusiasts like us. We can only wait and see.
> 
> I want to upgrade my ancient 2700K (see specs) and so far, it looks like it would be worth waiting for Alder Lake in order to get something current that's built on the latest process, not a backport, like Rocket Lake. I don't need that sabotaged by a shift to complete systems only.


I'm in the same boat. My 3770K CPU is still going strong, especially that I play games in ~3K resolution, where the GPU is still the limiting factor.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Feb 3, 2021)

What's the point of the Rocket Lake then???


----------



## tussinman (Feb 4, 2021)

Max(IT) said:


> Who is going to buy in March a CPU that will be replaced in September ?


September is annoucement which is meaningless. Could easily mean Q4 for laptops, Q1 2022 for OEM and Q2 2022 for desktops with large inventory/full lineup not avaibility till Q3 2022



qubit said:


> I want to upgrade my ancient 2700K (see specs) and so far, it looks like it would be worth waiting for Alder Lake in order to get something current that's built on the latest process, not a backport, like Rocket Lake. I don't need that sabotaged by a shift to complete systems only.


I don't think it would be a big deal. 11th gen is going to have PCI 4.0 support and DDR4 (especially with good timings) will be plenty fast for years to come. 

I don't see any sabotaging happening


----------



## qubit (Feb 4, 2021)

tussinman said:


> I don't think it would be a big deal. 11th gen is going to have PCI 4.0 support and DDR4 (especially with good timings) will be plenty fast for years to come.
> 
> I don't see any sabotaging happening


By waiting a few more months, I'll get a much better system. It's totally worth the wait.

I hope you're right about the complete systems sabotage not happening, or us PC enthusiasts are up Schitt Creek.


----------



## tussinman (Feb 4, 2021)

qubit said:


> By waiting a few more months, I'll get a much better system. It's totally worth the wait.


It's not going to be a few months. September is the annoucement but it's looking like desktop chips in volume isn't happening till Spring 2022. You could already have faster ram, PCI 4.0, and NVME for an entire year before Alder even hits the shelves.


----------



## THU31 (Feb 4, 2021)

qubit said:


> By waiting a few more months, I'll get a much better system. It's totally worth the wait.
> 
> I hope you're right about the complete systems sabotage not happening, or us PC enthusiasts are up Schitt Creek.


Is it better, though? Nobody answered my question from a week ago, so I still do not know the benefit of the big.little approach on desktop.

You are still only getting 8 high performance cores. And I fear the core management might be a complete mess for a while. Like how will apps/games know which cores to utilize? Has it not been proven, that unconventional architectures are not right for desktops? Bulldozer? Even the CCX approach in first Zen CPUs was not great.

10 nm also does not necessarily mean better. Will these CPUs reach high clock speeds? Process maturity is way more important than power consumption in that respect. Remember Broadwell?

Also, DDR5 will be slower and more expensive for the first few years, just as it always is. It will start to make sense when you can get 4800+ modules for the same price you can get 3200 modules now, and those are super cheap. Even 3600 CL16 is cheap.

Rocket Lake actually gets all the bells and whistles. 8 high performance cores with high clock speeds, PCI-E 4.0 for GPU, as well as on-die Gen4 NVMe link. Plus two times faster DMI resulting in more M.2 slots and native USB 20 Gbps support.
This platform literally has everything you will possibly need for 3-4 years. No quirks to work out, no problems, "it just works".

If you need more cores, go for Zen 3. Waiting for Alder Lake seems pointless. Rocket Lake will be the way to go if you want to stick with Intel.


----------



## qubit (Feb 4, 2021)

THU31 said:


> Is it better, though? Nobody answered my question from a week ago, so I still do not know the benefit of the big.little approach on desktop.
> 
> You are still only getting 8 high performance cores. And I fear the core management might be a complete mess for a while. Like how will apps/games know which cores to utilize? Has it not been proven, that unconventional architectures are not right for desktops? Bulldozer? Even the CCX approach in first Zen CPUs was not great.
> 
> ...


Sure, RL is  very good, but I'd rather see what AL offers, in official reviews, before making the decision. From experience, I will want the latest product.

I have no idea either how the big.little approach helps the desktop and by the sound of it, there's not much documentation on it, hence others don't know either. What I do know, is that Intel wouldn't invest lots of dollars in developing it if there wasn't a benefit.


----------



## voltage (Feb 6, 2021)

I am waiting for platform socket 1700 with DDR5. I have waited years, I can wait a bit longer, I hope.


----------



## Max(IT) (Feb 6, 2021)

I str


voltage said:


> I am waiting for platform socket 1700 with DDR5. I have waited years, I can wait a bit longer, I hope.


I strongly suspect it will be a long wait...


----------



## tussinman (Feb 7, 2021)

Max(IT) said:


> I strongly suspect it will be a long wait...


Not only that I have a feeling that for most general functions (office work + 1440p gaming) there really won't be a noticeable difference between highend DD4 and 1st gen DDR5 yet you'll not only have to wait 1 to 1.5 years but you'll be paying more money.........


----------



## medi01 (Feb 7, 2021)

Cobain said:


> Unless you think that paying 360€ for a 5600x is Smart. That's if you can even find one.


Plenty in stock in DE.
Looks pretty good vs 10700k, so, why?


----------



## Gradius2 (Apr 20, 2021)

There is a crisis in semiconductor industry.

It will not be easer until 2023:








						Global chip shortage probably won't let up until 2023, warns TSMC: CEO 'still expects capacity to tighten more'
					

Automotive supply is a 'top priority', analysts told




					www.theregister.com


----------



## RealKGB (Apr 20, 2021)

THU31 said:


> Why exactly do we need the Gracemont cores on desktop?


I don't really think we do.
big.LITTLE is better suited for laptops, where power efficiency is king, not desktops, where (unless Intel fails at getting heat out of their die) it doesn't really matter since you can customize your cooler.

Side note, does anyone else see the irony in big.LITTLE?


----------



## AusWolf (Apr 20, 2021)

RealKGB said:


> I don't really think we do.
> big.LITTLE is better suited for laptops, where power efficiency is king, not desktops, where (unless Intel fails at getting heat out of their die) it doesn't really matter since you can customize your cooler.


At least Intel can say that they've done something truly innovative (that no one asked for). All hail the new FX!


----------



## RealKGB (Apr 20, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> At least Intel can say that they've done something truly innovative (that no one asked for). All hail the new FX!


Intel's RT. It's cool, but not really usable yet.

And then with (maybe) Zen 5 we'll have AMD big.LITTLE chips.
I hope they make some big.LITTLE and some not, so like the Ryzen 5 7500 BL (big.LITTLE), 7500 BLX (big.little X version), and so on.


----------



## AusWolf (Apr 20, 2021)

RealKGB said:


> Intel's RT. It's cool, but not really usable yet.
> 
> And then with (maybe) Zen 5 we'll have AMD big.LITTLE chips.
> I hope they make some big.LITTLE and some not, so like the Ryzen 5 7500 BL (big.LITTLE), 7500 BLX (big.little X version), and so on.


Like you said in your previous post, I don't really see why big.LITTLE on desktop would ever be a good idea. The concept is that you can turn the big cores down (or completely off) under light loads to save power, and use them only when needed. It's useful for phones and laptops, but for desktop PCs, not so much. I'm not saying that you shouldn't think about your bills and try to save on power when you can, but I think even high-end modern CPUs are efficient enough under light loads so that we don't need to bog the system down with small cores just to save a couple Watts in idle.


----------



## DAWMan (Apr 20, 2021)

For an audio workstation I disable ALL boost developments.
We simply need all cores at a stable speed, preferably 4GHz.

Intel lost out from not having a fast enough reply to AMD Zen.
Just adding more cores/heat and fancy marketing slogans isn’t going to work.

At least they admit 2023 will be the year they get back on track.


----------



## blu3dragon (Apr 22, 2021)

You guys are missing the reason that with an additional 8 little cores intel marketing now gets to say they have 16 cores on their desktop cpu.

It should actually be helpful in all core workloads as well.  Maybe equivalent to 12 big cores with 24 threads?


----------

