# Is My Graphics Card Getting Enough Power?



## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

So my PSU wasn't really built for 2 8 pin graphic cards like the 1080 Ti I have now. Probably because 2 8 pin cards didn't even exist when it was made. My PSU only comes with 1 8 pin, a 6+2. So instead I use an adaptor that converts 2 6 pins into 1 8 pin, so I use that for the other 8 pin slot. However, my PSU only has 1 6 pin, meaning I could one use up one of those 6 pin slots in that adaptor. Is that bad or is my graphics card ok? I've had it since October and had no issues thus far.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 4, 2019)

Nah, you'd want at at least a 650w to be on the safe side with that system.

The main problem is that CPU bottlenecking the 1080Ti though....


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Nah, you'd want at at least a 650w to be on the safe side with that system.


Is it needed though? Because I can't really afford a new PSU.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> Is it needed though? Because I can't really afford a new PSU.



Depends if you want things to explode or not. You should of taken that into consideration before buying your 1080Ti. I know you play at 4k but that setup is going to hurt you


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## Vayra86 (Mar 4, 2019)

For the time being you could use a reduced power target for your 1080ti, chances are you won't even notice it at, say 85% power target but it will take the stress / risk out of your gaming.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Depends if you want things to explode or not. You should of taken that into consideration before buying your 1080Ti. I know you play at 4k but that setup is going to hurt you


Well I didn't pay for the 1080 ti though. It was a surprise upgrade.


Vayra86 said:


> For the time being you could use a reduced power target for your 1080ti, chances are you won't even notice it at, say 85% power target but it will take the stress / risk out of your gaming.


What's the risk exactly though, and how likely?


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## Vayra86 (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> Well I didn't pay for the 1080 ti though. It was a surprise upgrade.
> 
> What's the risk exactly though, and how likely?



Failure in power delivery can break components behind the PSU, so that is the 'exact' risk, and you've created a situation that is _potentially _out of spec for this GPU / rig. Lowering power target will bring it back in line, for a good part at least. The exact and how likely depends on quality, age and degradation state of caps on your PSU. You've also increased the rate at which that all happens.

Bottom line, you can't really tell but its not recommended to leave as is.

But another consideration is your CPU which limits the 1080ti anyway, so lowering power target is hardly even noticeable. Its firmly in the 'why not' category for you right now.


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## Jetster (Mar 4, 2019)

Don't like adapters as they can cause problems . But if you can't afford a proper power supply F it and run it. Just realize it c an break something


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## BarbaricSoul (Mar 4, 2019)

Since you say you can't afford a new PSU to insure that your "surprise 1080ti upgrade" is safe to run, and that it's paired with a CPU that will bottleneck the hell out of it, you should sell the 1080ti and buy a 1060 or 1070 and pocket the extra $200-300.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Since you say you can't afford a new PSU to insure that your "surprise 1080ti upgrade" is safe to run, and that it's paired with a CPU that will bottleneck the hell out of it, you should sell the 1080ti and buy a 1060 or 1070 and pocket the extra $200-300.


Well that's the one thing making my system run well, and there is actually very little bottleneck.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 4, 2019)

You shouldn't need any adapters to use your graphics card.  That PSU, according to XFX, comes with two 6+2 Pin PCI-E power connectors.  Those are the connectors you are supposed to use when you have an 8-pin connector on your graphics card.  That PSU can plug dirrectly into the two 8-pin connectors on your graphics card.
Nevermind, I just saw that XFX has an older version of the TS 550 that doesn't have two 6+2 Pins, and instead has a two 6-pins and one 6+2.  In that case, use the adapter, it isn't ideal, but it should work.  The wattage is a little concerning, especially on an older PSU, as they degrade over time.  A decent 750w can be had for $75, and it's worth it to make sure your PSU doesn't fail and kill everything in your system(and yes, that is a risk).

As for the FX-8350 bottlenecking the 1080Ti, that is going to depend on a lot of factors. I think the OP is playing at 4k, so the bottleneck will be a lot less noticeable, if not completely gone, because even a single 1080Ti starts to struggle at that point.


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## Vario (Mar 4, 2019)

Get a new power supply.  It is insane to risk your entire computer for $50 to 75.  You can often buy a 650 watt gold in that price range.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

Vario said:


> Get a new power supply.  It is insane to risk your entire computer for $50 to 75.  You can often buy a 650 watt gold in that price range.


Ok but that is still way too expensive for me.


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## Vario (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> Ok but that is still way too expensive for me.


You did buy a 1080Ti.  Cheaping out on power supply is generally a bad move.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

Vario said:


> You did buy a 1080Ti.  Cheaping out on power supply is generally a bad move.


I didn't though. I got it for free.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> You shouldn't need any adapters to use your graphics card.  That PSU, according to XFX, comes with two 6+2 Pin PCI-E power connectors.  Those are the connectors you are supposed to use when you have an 8-pin connector on your graphics card.  That PSU can plug dirrectly into the two 8-pin connectors on your graphics card.
> Nevermind, I just saw that XFX has an older version of the TS 550 that doesn't have two 6+2 Pins, and instead has a two 6-pins and one 6+2.  In that case, use the adapter, it isn't ideal, but it should work.  The wattage is a little concerning, especially on an older PSU, as they degrade over time.  A decent 750w can be had for $75, and it's worth it to make sure your PSU doesn't fail and kill everything in your system(and yes, that is a risk).
> 
> As for the FX-8350 bottlenecking the 1080Ti, that is going to depend on a lot of factors. I think the OP is playing at 4k, so the bottleneck will be a lot less noticeable, if not completely gone, because even a single 1080Ti starts to struggle at that point.



Heres info.

If in doubt upgrade the psu.







Vario said:


> You did buy a 1080Ti.  Cheaping out on power supply is generally a bad move.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> I didn't though. I got it for free.



What graphics card did you have before? Sell the old one and put money ontop to buy a better PSU


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## bug (Mar 4, 2019)

Jetster said:


> Don't like adapters as they can cause problems . But if you can't afford a proper power supply F it and run it. Just realize it c an break something


These adapters are ok, they were widespread in the early days of 8pin PCIe power connectors.

@OP The thing is, we can't really tell you whether you're ok or not, that depends on the load on each of your PSU's rails and that, in turn, depends on each component in your system. In general, a video card not getting enough juice will either refuse to boot, crash when going in 3D mode, or, if you're lucky, just refuse to up clocks past a certain point.
Your specs say you also run a rather power hungry CPU with an overclock on top. I would run it stock, to reduce the risk of trying the PSU.

Also, sometimes when PSUs give up the ghost, they take the mobo with them. You've been warned.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

bug said:


> These adapters are ok, they were widespread in the early days of 8pin PCIe power connectors.
> 
> @OP The thing is, we can't really tell you whether you're ok or not, that depends on the load on each of your PSU's rails and that, in turn, depends on each component in your system. In general, a video card not getting enough juice will either refuse to boot, crash when going in 3D mode, or, if you're lucky, just refuse to up clocks past a certain point.
> Your specs say you also run a rather power hungry CPU with an overclock on top. I would run it stock, to reduce the risk of trying the PSU.
> ...


My PSU doesn't have rails, and thankfully my graphics card hasn't been doing anything weird ever since I've got it in October. Also my CPU isn't overclocked.


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## krusha03 (Mar 4, 2019)

So you have 1x6 pin and 1x8 pin and you use them as 2x8 pin. Do you have a power meter to check what you are pulling off the wall at load? Otherwise as previously suggested I would run the GPU at reduced power target of 80% until you get a new PSU.

A 6 pin connector gives you 75W, a 8 pin 150W and the PCI-E another 75W. So you config is good for up to 300W. With 2x8 pin + PCI-E you have 375W which at 80% is 300W


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## DR4G00N (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> So my PSU wasn't really built for 2 8 pin graphic cards like the 1080 Ti I have now. Probably because 2 8 pin cards didn't even exist when it was made. My PSU only comes with 1 8 pin, a 6+2. So instead I use an adaptor that converts 2 6 pins into 1 8 pin, so I use that for the other 8 pin slot. However, my PSU only has 1 6 pin, meaning I could one use up one of those 6 pin slots in that adaptor. Is that bad or is my graphics card ok? I've had it since October and had no issues thus far.


Seems fine to me, if it works it works.
The 6-pin & 8-pin PCIE power connectors are exactly the same anyway, the 8-pin only has an extra sense pin that get's connected to the existing sense pin in the 6-pin to tell the card that it can draw more power.

Basically you just need to connect the two sense pins together with a paperclip or wire and your "6-pin" is now an "8-pin". This is what your dual 6-pin to 8-pin adapter does, the second 6-pin connector is just a dummy.


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## EarthDog (Mar 4, 2019)

Didn't we go over this in one of your other threads already????????


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

As everyone else has said...  If you want to run the risk of loosing a $600 graphics cards for the sake of $60 then so be it..  Failing that if you can't afford it, don't use it until you can.  If you've not had issues since October that's great, but trying your luck is only risking the card and your system even more.   If it breaks, you could risk loosing everything.

It's up to you, how much you value your 'free' upgrade.  Sounds like to me sadly, not very much at all....


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> As everyone else has said...  If you want to run the risk of loosing a $600 graphics cards for the sake of $60 then so be it..  Failing that if you can't afford it, don't use it until you can.  If you've not had issues since October that's great, but trying your luck is only risking the card and your system even more.   If it breaks, you could risk loosing everything.
> 
> It's up to you, how much you value your 'free' upgrade.  Sounds like to me sadly, not very much at all....



The PSU is pretty stout despite the age.

44 Amperes should be plenty.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> As everyone else has said...  If you want to run the risk of loosing a $600 graphics cards for the sake of $60 then so be it..  Failing that if you can't afford it, don't use it until you can.  If you've not had issues since October that's great, but trying your luck is only risking the card and your system even more.   If it breaks, you could risk loosing everything.
> 
> It's up to you, how much you value your 'free' upgrade.  Sounds like to me sadly, not very much at all....


I do value it a lot, it's just that there's literally not much I can, and thankfully from what I read I don't I do need to do much as most 8 pins only have one ground wire more and sense.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> I do value it a lot, it's just that there's literally not much I can, and thankfully from what I read I don't I do need to do much as most 8 pins only have one ground wire more and sense.



If anything Id have an adapter with 14 gauge wire if possible...


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> The PSU is pretty stout despite the age.
> 
> 44 Amperes should be plenty.



Just for clarification, what is his PSU?  His system specs show XFX TS550 Bronze??


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> Just for clarification, what is his PSU?  His system specs show XFX TS550 Bronze??


And that is my PSU.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> Just for clarification, what is his PSU?  His system specs show XFX TS550 Bronze??



Look at this Link

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ard-getting-enough-power.253232/#post-4005448


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## Toothless (Mar 4, 2019)

I would honestly be waiting for that PSU to blow and take other things with it.


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

Judging by the man Jonnyguru and the forum here it might well be ok but please please, do yourself a favour and buy a new unit just in case..  Better to be out of pocket till another pay check than to risk your whole rig...  That's just crazy to me...

How long have you had it?


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

Toothless said:


> I would honestly be waiting for that PSU to blow and take other things with it.



https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...tting-enough-power.253232/page-2#post-4005618

I posted what his psu specs are.

Even though my PSU is a different series, SS does make them pretty stout.

Mine for example max draw is 1355 Watts


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Look at this Link
> 
> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ard-getting-enough-power.253232/#post-4005448



I did see that and then couldn't see what his PSU was from the list..  But still, if it's an older unit, I'd still suggest buying another PSU.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> Well that's the one thing making my system run well, and there is actually very little bottleneck.



You say that, until you see the card in action on a balanced system. By raw numbers you stand to lose as much as 40% of the card's potential.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> I did see that and then couldn't see what his PSU was from the list..  But still, if it's an older unit, I'd still suggest buying another PSU.


Ok his PSU falls under TS series.

2 are 44 Amperes on 12V, 1 is 45,



Vayra86 said:


> You say that, until you see the card in action on a balanced system. By raw numbers you stand to lose as much as 40% of the card's potential.



I just say let him upgrade when he is ready to, he claims to received the card free. Must be nice to have, any system from 2012 on would benefit from it.


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## cucker tarlson (Mar 4, 2019)

well at 4k your fx8 is getting less load,if it were 1080p that'd probably mean a shutdown.I also advise power limit set to 80%,pascals undervolt pretty well.I remeber my 1080 could do pretty much the same at 65% power target with some core and mem oc as it did out of the box.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 4, 2019)

Absolutely, I also said, until the funds arrive he has options, such as lowering power target. Was safely ignored. OP knows best.

Soldier on


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> Judging by the man Jonnyguru and the forum here it might well be ok but please please, do yourself a favour and buy a new unit just in case..  Better to be out of pocket till another pay check than to risk your whole rig...  That's just crazy to me...
> 
> How long have you had it?


Again, I can't really buy a new, and it will take me months to get a new one.

Also are you talking about the PSU or graphics card? The PSU came with the PC when I originally bought it in 2014, and the graphics card I have from October 2018.


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Ok his PSU falls under TS series.
> 
> 2 are 44 Amperes on 12V, 1 is 45,



It makes me laugh when Googling for the specs on a 1080 Ti for amps and such,  Nvidia don't say a thing about it, but as long as the OP understands the risk of using a slightly on edge or older unit for his hardware that could cause it to go badly wrong if it did, then that's fine and down to him 



avrona said:


> Again, I can't really buy a new, and it will take me months to get a new one.
> 
> Also are you talking about the PSU or graphics card? The PSU came with the PC when I originally bought it in 2014, and the graphics card I have from October 2018.



If it would take you months to save up for a new PSU, how long would it take you to save up for a new 1080 Ti or similar?  Just food for thought...  I just don't want to see/hear/read about anything going wrong with the system and you loosing a 'free' GPU...
Just out of interest, what is the model of 1080 Ti you have?  EVGA, MSI etc?  SC, FTW3, Gaming X?


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> It makes me laugh when Googling for the specs on a 1080 Ti for amps and such,  Nvidia don't say a thing about it, but as long as the OP understands the risk of using a slightly on edge or older unit for his hardware that could cause it to go badly wrong if it did, then that's fine and down to him
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what that food for thought is about but the card I have is an Aorus GTX 1080 Ti.


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> Not sure what that food for thought is about but the card I have is an Aorus GTX 1080 Ti.



It's an expression   Aorus is a Gigabyte card if I'm correct in thinking?  Well as I said above, if a PSU would take you months to save up for, how long would the 1080 Ti take to save up for?  I hope you understand where I'm going with that....


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## 64K (Mar 4, 2019)

OP why did you make this thread? You decided before even doing it that what you were doing was ok.

Just in case I'm wrong about your intentions then my advice is to not use the 1080 Ti. Give up gaming or use your old video card. Get a part time job for 1 week. Buy a better PSU. Plug your 1080 Ti back in and game on.


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

phill said:


> It's an expression   Aorus is a Gigabyte card if I'm correct in thinking?  Well as I said above, if a PSU would take you months to save up for, how long would the 1080 Ti take to save up for?  I hope you understand where I'm going with that....


I know it's an expression, I was just wondering what your actual food for thought really had to do with anything. And yes, Aorus is a sub-brand of Gigabyte. And I still have no idea what how long it would take me to save up for a 1080 ti has to do with anything, but probably several years of buying nothing else.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> I know it's an expression, I was just wondering what your actual food for thought really had to do with anything. And yes, Aorus is a sub-brand of Gigabyte. And I still have no idea what how long it would take me to save up for a 1080 ti has to do with anything, but probably several years of buying nothing else.



Where do you live?


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## avrona (Mar 4, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Where do you live?


England, why?


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## phill (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> I know it's an expression, I was just wondering what your actual food for thought really had to do with anything. And yes, Aorus is a sub-brand of Gigabyte. And I still have no idea what how long it would take me to save up for a 1080 ti has to do with anything, but probably several years of buying nothing else.



I'll try to explain..

If it takes you a couple of years to be able to afford a GPU such as the 1080 Ti, then a few months that a PSU would take to save up, it's worth the wait don't you think??  Have you heard of a saying, prevention is better than a cure?  I think that very much applies to this situation.

It's going to be up to you at the end of the day what you decide to do, anyone here or anywhere for that matter, can only offer you opinions and advice and then it's down on you if decide to take them.  If you don't want to listen or take the advice then that is up to you. 
I'm not going to keep saying the same thing and wasting my time, I don't mean to be rude but being blunt doesn't seem to be working either.  I hope nothing happens to the card or your system in time, enjoy your gaming


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## MrGenius (Mar 4, 2019)

I've killed numerous PSUs by running them harder than they could handle. Never had one even slightly damage anything else when it died. I'm pretty sure the likelihood of that ever happening is negligible/extremely low. Unless it were to catch fire in the process...also not too damn likely to ever happen.

Bottom line: Just run it 'til it croaks. Then you'll have no choice but to buy another one.


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## krusha03 (Mar 4, 2019)

avrona said:


> I do value it a lot, it's just that there's literally not much I can, and thankfully from what I read I don't I do need to do much as most 8 pins only have one ground wire more and sense.



The difference is rating of 75W vs 150W. As I said earlier:



krusha03 said:


> So you have 1x6 pin and 1x8 pin and you use them as 2x8 pin. Do you have a power meter to check what you are pulling off the wall at load? Otherwise as previously suggested I would run the GPU at reduced power target of 80% until you get a new PSU.
> 
> A 6 pin connector gives you 75W, a 8 pin 150W and the PCI-E another 75W. So you config is good for up to 300W. With 2x8 pin + PCI-E you have 375W which at 80% is 300W



Also from the review:






I think the rest of your system at full load should take about 300W Max meaning when gaming (not doing CPU + GPU full load stress test) you are within limits of your PSU. However you normally want to ran your PSU at about 80-90% of max load and therefore I would recommend reducing the power target of your GPU and / or undervolting your CPU / GPU


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## Hardcore Games (Mar 5, 2019)

I buy 850W or better power supplies all the time. This way I can ignore video card power demands.

Right now I have an AX860i which is 80 plus platinum so I am in a good place for gaming looking forward


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## arbiter (Mar 5, 2019)

Hardcore Games said:


> I buy 850W or better power supplies all the time. This way I can ignore video card power demands.
> 
> Right now I have an AX860i which is 80 plus platinum so I am in a good place for gaming looking forward


Any decent brand psu of 650-700watts should handle any single gpu on the market so don't need 800+.


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## BarbaricSoul (Mar 5, 2019)

avrona said:


> Well that's the one thing making my system run well, and there is actually very little bottleneck.



No it's not. and no it's not the only video card that will "run well". It's your system, do what you feel is appropriate (don't come back here crying if it ends up killing that 5 year old PSU in a few months taking your motherboard/RAM/1080ti with it). You came here asking us for advice. You are getting mass advice from everyone to upgrade the PSU. Why are you arguing with us about it?



avrona said:


> My PSU doesn't have rails,



WRONG, all PSUs have at least one rail


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## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2019)

Dont feed the trolls.


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## SomeOne99h (Mar 5, 2019)

Hello avrona. I saw you did low rate some posts. I understand why but see: If those posts appear right at the beginning at your face then maybe it would be a little rude but they came after many posts, this indicate that TPU members are desperate to help you, they are trying their last solution to convince you. They aren't trying to offend you or insult you. Most of them here have a vast knowledge in hardware so you can rely on them. Please listen to them.


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 5, 2019)

genuinly dont know why you make these posts..
you made a post about your system asking what you should upgrade. People said "Get a better cpu." you said "No its fine"
you make this thread asking if your psu is good enough for yout gpu, people say "probaby best to buy a new psu" you said "No its fine"

So tell me.
Why do you bother to make the posts if you dont want people to answer your questions unless they validate your choice?

Its like you want people to pat you on the head and say. "Good choice! we couldnt have reccomended anything better" and when they dont you rate their post as bad.


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## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2019)

Like I said... dont feed the trolls. This is his M.O.. I refuse to help.


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## avrona (Mar 5, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Dont feed the trolls.


It's sad you think asking for  help counts as trolling.


SomeOne99h said:


> Hello avrona. I saw you did low rate some posts. I understand why but see: If those posts appear right at the beginning at your face then maybe it would be a little rude but they came after many posts, this indicate that TPU members are desperate to help you, they are trying their last solution to convince you. They aren't trying to offend you or insult you. Most of them here have a vast knowledge in hardware so you can rely on them. Please listen to them.


Listen I have no idea what you are going on about here, and it really doesn't seem to matter as you seem to side with people who call me trolls for no reason, but I all want is just an answer to my question. Is that too much to ask for?


Shambles1980 said:


> genuinly dont know why you make these posts..
> you made a post about your system asking what you should upgrade. People said "Get a better cpu." you said "No its fine"
> you make this thread asking if your psu is good enough for yout gpu, people say "probaby best to buy a new psu" you said "No its fine"
> 
> ...


I make posts because I need an answer to my questions... that's why people normally post questions.


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## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2019)

Your questions have been answered... multiple times. You choose to disagree with the answers...

It was suggested to get a more powerful unit...you knew damn well going into it you don't have the money...what did you expect to hear? You have your answer..get a new psu at your earliest convenience. 

What question hasnt been answered?


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## avrona (Mar 5, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Your questions have been answered... multiple times. You choose to disagree with the answers...
> 
> It was suggested to get a more powerful unit...you knew damn well going into it you don't have the money...what did you expect to hear going into it?
> 
> What question hasnt been answered?


The one I originally asked in the original post?


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## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2019)

Asked and answered a dozen times.

Reported thread to be closed... dont waste your time with this potato.


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## avrona (Mar 5, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Asked and answered a dozen times.
> 
> Reported thread to be closed... dont waste your time with this potato.


Reporting and calling me a potato just for posting a question, wow.


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## bug (Mar 5, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Your questions have been answered... multiple times. You choose to disagree with the answers...
> 
> It was suggested to get a more powerful unit...you knew damn well going into it you don't have the money...what did you expect to hear? You have your answer..get a new psu at your earliest convenience.
> 
> *What question hasnt been answered?*





avrona said:


> *The one I originally asked in the original post?*





bug said:


> These adapters are ok, they were widespread in the early days of 8pin PCIe power connectors.
> 
> @OP The thing is, *we can't really tell you whether you're ok or not, that depends on the load on each of your PSU's rails and that, in turn, depends on each component in your system*. In general, a video card not getting enough juice will either refuse to boot, crash when going in 3D mode, or, if you're lucky, just refuse to up clocks past a certain point.
> Your specs say you also run a rather power hungry CPU with an overclock on top. I would run it stock, to reduce the risk of trying the PSU.
> ...


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## newtekie1 (Mar 5, 2019)

BarbaricSoul said:


> WRONG, all PSUs have at least one rail



So, he was correct, his PSU doesn't have rail*s*.


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## Tatty_One (Mar 5, 2019)

avrona said:


> Reporting and calling me a potato just for posting a question, wow.


To be honest, I have no problem with your question, seems a sensible one, however I do have a problem when anyone asking a question who gets pretty consistent suggestions/replies and then argues against them getting to the point that everyone here feels as though they are going around in circles, so they get frustrated and you are then surprised that they do, best place for this thread at this point is to close the door and turn the key otherwise it will get messy which will lead to more pain and angst for everyone.


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