# "NVIDIA is the Single Worst Company We've Ever Dealt With:" Linus Torvalds



## btarunr (Jun 18, 2012)

Linux creator and Millennium Technology Prize laureate Linus Torvalds called NVIDIA the "single worst company" he and his associates dealt with. Torvalds made these comments in an interactive session with students, developers, and entrepreneurs, at the Aalto Center for Entrepreneurship in Otaniemi, Finland. The session was conducted in English. 

Responding to a question by one of his audience complaining how NVIDIA was extremely stubborn in sharing technologies such as Optimus (dynamic switching between integrated and discrete GPUs) with the Linux community, and seeking his comments on the matter, Torvalds called NVIDIA "one of the worst trouble spots [they've] had with hardware manufacturers." He continued "...and that is really sad [for NVIDIA], because NVIDIA tries to sell a lot of chips into the Android market." With this comment, Torvalds reminded NVIDIA that its business with Linux isn't confined to client computing platforms such as PCs, but also the Android-driven portable computing market (of smartphones and tablets), which is growing at a breakneck pace.



Torvalds soon escalated his assessment of NVIDIA as being "the single worst company [they've] ever dealt with." Torvalds then got more 'graphic' (pun intended), and flipped the bird to the cameras. "...so NVIDIA, f*** you!" he exclaimed. The recording of the event is embedded below. The part in question starts at 0:48:10, though the entire video makes for a very good watch. 










*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


----------



## idx (Jun 18, 2012)

I hope this wont make nvidia remove Linux support.  :/


----------



## btarunr (Jun 18, 2012)

idx said:


> I hope this wont make nvidia remove Linux support.  :/



Linux (as Android), driven by Tegra, could soon become a bigger revenue source than PC graphics for NVIDIA. So I don't think it will do anything stupid.


----------



## sclera (Jun 18, 2012)

idx said:


> I hope this wont make nvidia remove Linux support.  :/



This is the real world, not a playground. Torvalds does not represent Linux as a whole.


----------



## remixedcat (Jun 18, 2012)

wow he's so mature...


----------



## jigar2speed (Jun 18, 2012)

It takes a lot of frustration for a professional to react like this in public, looks like Nvidia did piss him badly.


----------



## remixedcat (Jun 18, 2012)

jigar2speed said:


> It takes a lot of frustration for a professional to react like this in public, looks like Nvidia did piss him badly.



stallman ate crud off his toe and he's "one of them"....


----------



## zlobster (Jun 18, 2012)

sclera said:


> This is the real world, not a playground. Torvalds does not represent Linux as a whole.



Nope, just a major figure in the kernel development...

And hats off, for his bold statement! It was about time s.o. put nvidia on the ground.:shadedshu


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 18, 2012)

I think being emotional and making statements like that in public is bad for business. If you are amongst your friends and not having a camera directly on you its fine but not on record. He has nothing to gain from doing that and only something to lose. It is always best to think of what you say and how it effects your business than just going with feelings. I hope it doesn't negatively affect the linux community and their relations with Nvidia. Good luck getting as much help from AMD as you did from Nvidia over the years.


----------



## NC37 (Jun 18, 2012)

Well if you look at nVidia's track record and business deals over the years...yeah they aren't that super. May make darn good GPUs but some bonehead stuff elsewhere. Course so was 3Dfx but their management just finally tipped the scale. nVidia has been at that tipping point before but hasn't fallen over yet. Course they are much bigger company than 3Dfx was.


----------



## aussiebear (Jun 18, 2012)

DaedalusHelios said:


> I think being emotional and making statements like that in public is bad for business. If you are amongst your friends and not having a camera directly on you its fine but not on record. He has nothing to gain from doing that and only something to lose. It is always best to think of what you say and how it effects your business than just going with feelings. I hope it doesn't negatively affect the linux community and their relations with Nvidia. Good luck getting as much help from AMD as you did from Nvidia over the years.



What an absolute load of nonsense. You clearly do NOT know the open community and the behaviour of companies it has to tolerate. Linus Torvalds does NOT run a business. He is a project leader for the Linux *Kernel*. He actually gets paid by other companies in terms of salary and shares. He doesn't lose anything by telling Nvidia to go f**k themselves.

(1) Nvidia has always been difficult. We've had to tolerate them in order to use their hardware. They simply refuse to work with the community. They expect things done their way, under their development control. We've had to reverse engineer drivers to make our own open drivers. See Nouveau project.
=> http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/
(The goal is to give out-of-the-box experience for the end-user. Nvidia wants no part in it.)

The sad part is, they would sell more hardware if they just take part in the open source process. (See below for AMD and Intel).

(2) VIA is similar. Except they announce their ambitions, but end up doing nothing because they don't have the money or engineering manpower to do anything. It's a a shame, because VIA has a potential market here. (Linux enthusiasts using their embedded boards to DIY projects. It's free advertising for their hardware.)

(3) Both AMD and Intel know there's hardware sales to be made by supporting Linux in a pro-active manner. AMD Graphics and Intel Open Source Centre (China) have employed full time people to actively take part and develop open source drivers for their respective hardware. AMD releases code samples and technical documentation. Intel outright contributes to things by actively trying to stabilise their Sandy and Ivy Bridge IGP open driver code. There's already initialisation code for the 2013 Haswell chip.

*AMD's Open Source Zone*
=> http://developer.amd.com/zones/opensource/Pages/default.aspx

*Linux Graphics Drivers from Intel*
=> http://intellinuxgraphics.org/
*Open Source at Intel*
=> http://software.intel.com/sites/oss/

(4) Hewlett Packard is also another fantastic open source player. You will never have an issue with HP printer, scanner, fax device under Linux; because they pro-actively develop, update, and maintain their drivers. 

*HP Linux Imaging and Printing*
=> http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/index.html


(5) Even Microsoft makes contributions to make sure their Hyper-V solution works with Linux. (Open source kernel drivers to support Hyper-V paravirtualization).


...In the end, its come to a point where one just ignores companies that don't support Linux. That's unfortunate, because there is money to be made if they provide open driver support for their hardware! (I'm typing this on an Intel "Sandy Bridge" notebook with Linux installed.)


----------



## RoutedScripter (Jun 18, 2012)

I always thought nvidia was operating so questionable

ATI seemed more friendly when it was not with AMD


----------



## dj-electric (Jun 18, 2012)

If you think NVIDIA+linux could be bad... oh just wait to try AMD+linux...


----------



## naoan (Jun 18, 2012)

Kind of ironic when in the past, ATi is considered a bad match for Linux (and yes it was, experienced one many distro simply not booting because of ATi myself).

It seem to got better these days.


----------



## erocker (Jun 18, 2012)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> If you think NVIDIA+linux could be bad... oh just wait to try AMD+linux...



What's the issue specifically? I was running Ubuntu on an AMD system and didn't have any problems... other than my initial Linux n00biness.


----------



## jigar2speed (Jun 18, 2012)

erocker said:


> What's the issue specifically? I was running Ubuntu on an AMD system and didn't have any problems... other than my initial Linux n00biness.



Come on, you know us, we read few threads where few people have faced issues and form a mindset, needless to say we stick with it and misguide other people as well. The lack of protectiveness to check the issue on our is own always missing, so yes, you can ignore us. /sarcasm... (i feel silly giving it a sarcasm tag even :shadedshu )


EDIT: Ubuntu noob user here, facing no issues what's so ever on AMD HD 5770 with FX-8120


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 18, 2012)

AMD's linux drivers are pretty solid. They may not be as mature as nvidia's but they still work just fine on the most popular hardware configurations. 

back on topic, this is Linus's personality. nobody should be surprised he did this.


----------



## Assimilator (Jun 18, 2012)

What Linus is bitching about is that nVIDIA refuses to release their drivers as *open source*. Instead of doing this, they release their drivers as a binary blob. The upside of this? Their drivers don't suck, as opposed to the open-source AMD drivers, which do.

Torvalds needs to shut the fuck up and realise that nVIDIA cares about their customers, and that means giving said customers a binary driver that WORKS and not an open-source POS that doesn't. 99% of people who use nVIDIA devices under Linux (i.e. Android) don't give a shit whether the driver is open-source or not, they want something that doesn't break or have to be updated every week. And that's what nVIDIA delivers, and has always delivered: quality.


----------



## naoan (Jun 18, 2012)

jigar2speed said:


> Come on, you know us, we read few threads where few people have faced issues and form a mindset, needless to say we stick with it and misguide other people as well. The lack of protectiveness to check the issue on our is own always missing, so yes, you can ignore us. /sarcasm... (i feel silly giving it a sarcasm tag even :shadedshu )
> 
> 
> EDIT: Ubuntu noob user here, facing no issues what's so ever on AMD HD 5770 with FX-8120



It was simply horrid back in the days (2007-2009), it's not usual for users to not be able to even boot the damn live cd/dvd.

And btw, the same can be said to you, just because _you_ don't have problem doesn't mean there aren't any countless other who do (not to mention Linux doesn't automatically _mean_ Ubuntu). Or did you think all those threads was made by a bot?


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 18, 2012)

Assimilator said:


> What Linus is bitching about is that nVIDIA refuses to release their drivers as *open source*. Instead of doing this, they release their drivers as a binary blob. The upside of this? Their drivers don't suck, as opposed to the open-source AMD drivers, which do.
> 
> Torvalds needs to shut the fuck up and realise that nVIDIA cares about their customers, and that means giving said customers a binary driver that WORKS and not an open-source POS that doesn't. 99% of people who use nVIDIA devices under Linux (i.e. Android) don't give a shit whether the driver is open-source or not, they want something that doesn't break or have to be updated every week. And that's what nVIDIA delivers, and has always delivered: quality.



You are missing the point here. Nvidia might be an angel to everyone else, but as long as they don't help Linux they will be regarded as absolute filth, lower than scum by the Linux community. It doesn't take much to release their code to the public and annotate a bit. That will hardly make their drivers suck, and if anything the open community will improve on their code.  

Its also worth noting that I am still waiting for my compensation for the Nvidia mobile graphics problem. I have had more problems with my 2 Nvidia cards than all my AMD/ATI stuff from Rage. Not sure about the rest, but Nvidia sure have lots of QUALITY when it comes to my experience.


----------



## qubit (Jun 18, 2012)

Torvalds is right. The Linux market represents extra sales for nvidia, so isn't it strange that they won't support it properly? While it's around 1% of the total market, that's still a lot of sales and they could help grow that market, too. Many other major product vendors are strangely reluctant to support Linux too. Now, isn't that strange?

I reckon the only reason that Linux still hasn't gone mainstream is because of the continuing driver issues. Without that crucial piece of software between the OS and the hardware (any hardware, not just graphics) the OS is useless. At the most, it's fit only for a technology demo.

Every hardware manufacturer writes drivers for Windows, but you have to be lucky to find a Linux version and when they do, they often don't work properly and don't have all the features of their Windows counterparts.

You get these homebrew efforts at reverse engineering a driver, but this approach is fatally flawed and they tend not to work too well at all - a manufacture provided driver is critical for success.

I really suspect the hand of Microsoft in all this, making backroom deals with the major manufacturers to stunt Linux driver development by restricting driver availability, among possibly other things. Yeah, exactly, go prove it.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, at least you was able to use linux with Nvidia, so I don't really get whats his problem. Blaming a whole company just because some subpar performance from one of the departments is simply immature.

The nature of the market is changed a lot (consoles will go with AMD, and they also slowly eating up the IGP market on the desktops with a big share of Intel). 
So, besides the desktop discrete battle, their only option now is to be successful with ARM and Apple, because those are the segments where they can shell a lot of chips. 

I also agree with qubit... it's a really Microsoft-ish to handle things this way. (it's the same story how they slowing down the progression of the graphics in PC games for years with secret agreements, just to keep their console in the battle, or the things they did (or attempted to do) with the other browsers to make IE more successful, etc). They do not care about the development of computer science on the planet if they are not involved, and they are willing to slow down and harm anything which only makes money for others. 

But I understand them tbh, because you can't except the alpha male to be nice with the competition, predators doesn't work that way


----------



## creepingdeath (Jun 18, 2012)

Assimilator said:


> What Linus is bitching about is that nVIDIA refuses to release their drivers as *open source*. Instead of doing this, they release their drivers as a binary blob. The upside of this? Their drivers don't suck, as opposed to the open-source AMD drivers, which do.
> 
> Torvalds needs to shut the fuck up and realise that nVIDIA cares about their customers, and that means giving said customers a binary driver that WORKS and not an open-source POS that doesn't. 99% of people who use nVIDIA devices under Linux (i.e. Android) don't give a shit whether the driver is open-source or not, they want something that doesn't break or have to be updated every week. And that's what nVIDIA delivers, and has always delivered: quality.



This is a fanboy statement if i've ever seen one


----------



## qubit (Jun 18, 2012)

Assimilator said:


> What Linus is bitching about is that nVIDIA refuses to release their drivers as *open source*. Instead of doing this, they release their drivers as a binary blob. The upside of this? Their drivers don't suck, as opposed to the open-source AMD drivers, which do.
> 
> Torvalds needs to shut the fuck up and realise that nVIDIA cares about their customers, and that means giving said customers a binary driver that WORKS and not an open-source POS that doesn't. 99% of people who use nVIDIA devices under Linux (i.e. Android) don't give a shit whether the driver is open-source or not, they want something that doesn't break or have to be updated every week. And that's what nVIDIA delivers, and has always delivered: quality.





creepingdeath said:


> This is a fanboy statement if i've ever seen one


Agreed, creepingdeath. Total fanboi.

Since when does the GPL, which Linux is licenced under, state that all software running on Linux must be open source too? What a load of tosh. Linux applications and drivers can be as closed-source as you like and even include obnoxious DRM schemes such as Ubisoft's always-on DRM and product activation. Linux users are simply not dumb enough to buy into this crap, that's all.


----------



## btarunr (Jun 18, 2012)

Assimilator said:


> What Linus is bitching about is that nVIDIA refuses to release their drivers as *open source*. Instead of doing this, they release their drivers as a binary blob. The upside of this? Their drivers don't suck, as opposed to the open-source AMD drivers, which do.



No, Linus is angry that the feature set isn't consistent between Windows and Linux. DirectX really is the only difference between the two platforms (which nobody can do anything about). There's no reason why NVIDIA Optimus, 3D Vision Surround, CUDA, or even PhysX don't work (/well) on Linux, and that has nothing to do with the driver being open-source or proprietary. NVIDIA at first did not release Optimus support for Linux, and didn't support them in their efforts to somehow get it to work with whatever open resources are available. That's where NVIDIA deserved the f***-you. There are plenty of proprietary Linux drivers by other hardware vendors that give end-users their hardware's advertised feature-sets.

Advocating Linux doesn't necessarily make one an open-source purist. At least not in case of someone concerned with its propagation (Torvalds). There's plenty of proprietary software (applications and drivers) for Linux.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 18, 2012)

NVidia has always had a hands off approach to Linux.  I thought it was common knowledge to avoid nVidia if you wanted to run linux and have decent video hardware support.  And, IMO, that is a perfectly legitimate stance to have.  Yes, it would be nice if they better supported Linux, but honestly why would they?  The market share for linux is so small that putting all that development time into proper support likely wouldn't amount to a profit.

And the girl asking the question annoys me.  She is smart enough to use linux on a daily basis, but not smart enough to pick hardware that properly supports it?  WTF?!


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 18, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> NVidia has always had a hands off approach to Linux. I thought it was common knowledge to avoid nVidia if you wanted to run linux and have decent video hardware support. And, IMO, that is a perfectly legitimate stance to have. Yes, it would be nice if they better supported Linux, but honestly why would they? The market share for linux is so small that putting all that development time into proper support likely wouldn't amount to a profit.



im no linux fan , ive not a clue how to use it and had the clearly blinkerred view you and nvidia have before, but ive an android phone now so things change and nvidias views on linux need to change, and will, id put my left(rights not leavin me) arm on nvidia backing linux or fadeing from this world,tegra2,3,4,5,8,99,x, denver nuff said.

Huang would no sooner cut his left tatty off then loose mobile Oem contracts, so they will get in line.


----------



## Xyvik (Jun 18, 2012)

As someone who has only had a very minor professional dealing with nVidia that was absolutely atrocious, I'm glad to hear somebody much more in the public eye bashing nVidia. For many many years they have had a "I'm holier than thou, and prettier to boot" attitude that I simply can't stomach. I think it's better when people, even in business, speak their emotions and their thoughts rather than always trying to be "politically correct." If you've had bad experiences with a company that simply refuses to work with you, then call them out on it. Sure, you might lose a few of the pure fanboi customers, but who wants them anyway?


----------



## Cool Vibrations (Jun 18, 2012)

It was only a matter of time till the aaltotalk reached major tech sites. Good one, Linus. Tell them how it is. Nvidia's support for Linux is indeed pretty bad and anyone defending them is a true fanboy.


----------



## Drone (Jun 18, 2012)

Emotion or reason ... I do not care. Linus is right anyway.


----------



## deadmansclick (Jun 18, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> NVidia has always had a hands off approach to Linux.  I thought it was common knowledge to avoid nVidia if you wanted to run linux and have decent video hardware support.  And, IMO, that is a perfectly legitimate stance to have.  Yes, it would be nice if they better supported Linux, but honestly why would they?  The market share for linux is so small that putting all that development time into proper support likely wouldn't amount to a profit.
> 
> And the girl asking the question annoys me.  She is smart enough to use linux on a daily basis, but not smart enough to pick hardware that properly supports it?  WTF?!



I agree. The comment you make about the girls question just reminds me of smart people trying to tell me that apple is the way to go


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

It's all about the MONEY!


----------



## qubit (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> It's all about the MONEY!



No way!


----------



## Jurassic1024 (Jun 18, 2012)

We don't have the full story yet, but the lynching has already begun...


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 18, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> im no linux fan , ive not a clue how to use it and had the clearly blinkerred view you and nvidia have before, but ive an android phone now so things change and nvidias views on linux need to change, and will, id put my left(rights not leavin me) arm on nvidia backing linux or fadeing from this world,tegra2,3,4,5,8,99,x, denver nuff said.
> 
> Huang would no sooner cut his left tatty off then loose mobile Oem contracts, so they will get in line.



I think the smartphone/android market is a different story entirely.  They've embraced that market a lot compared to the PC side because of their Tegra project.  It is the PC side that I was talking about.  I mean, I didn't hear a lot of people complain about android on the tegra platform, my Droid X2 seems to work wonderfully.

But of course the Android marketshare is a much bigger one to capture compared to the PC Linux share, they are pretty much totally different beasts.  And Android has the backing of google, with google willing to put some dev time into making their OS work properly.  But in the end, there is money to be made on Android, and not money to be made with PC Linux.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 18, 2012)

Jurassic1024 said:


> We don't have the full story yet, but the lynching has already begun...



There's no such thing as a bad day for a good hangin'.


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

Hey Linux you want some thing better to work with? Then make a mainstream OS like Windows or SHUT THE FUCK UP!


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> Hey Linux you want some thing better to work with? Then make a mainstream OS like Windows or SHUT THE FUCK UP!



what a whimsickle delight it is to see you back trickson, where have you been, your not snaggin me


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> what a whimsickle delight it is to see you back trickson, where have you been, your not snaggin me



LOL. Well really! Come on Linux is nothing more than a novelty OS nothing more! And then they cry about it as if they are entitled! The dip shit even flipped the bird and said fuck you to nVidia! WTF? Yeah that should get them to work with you so much more closer!


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> LOL. Well really! Come on Linux is nothing more than a novelty OS nothing more! And then they cry about it as if they are entitled! The dip shit even flipped the bird and said fuck you to nVidia! WTF? Yeah that should get them to work with you so much more closer!



i might once have agreed, but id have been daft,,

Androids rule this planet now and will probably evolve into our everything and masters, and they are based on lynux,,,,,, nvidia want to sell Soc's for these devices and the best way to do that is,,, to show off your Tech,,, small fry my ass theirs many a potential win for consumer and nvidia  going awry here..


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 18, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> i might once have agreed, but id have been daft,,
> 
> Androids rule this planet now and will probably evolve into our everything and masters, and they are based on lynux,,,,,, nvidia want to sell Soc's for these devices and the best way to do that is,,, to show off your Tech,,, small fry my ass theirs many a potential win for consumer and nvidia  going awry here..



That is the thing though, Torvalds has nothing really to do with Android, so his comment doesn't tell us anything about how nVidia is dealing with Android.

Yes, Android is Linux based, but it is at this point a totally different beast from PC Linux.  So making assumptions that nVidia is handling Android the same way they handle PC Linux is not that smart.

And quite frankly, Android being based of Linux doesn't mean it is Linux.  If you ask Google, the people who created Android, Android is not Linux.  Weather or not Android can be considered Linux is still being argued.  Of course Torvalds thinks Android is Linux, because then he can claim it's success as his.  I bet if you went to the guys at AT&T and Bell Labs and asked them if Linux was Unix, they say it was...


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> i might once have agreed, but id have been daft,,
> 
> Androids rule this planet now and will probably evolve into our everything and masters, and they are based on lynux,,,,,, nvidia want to sell Soc's for these devices and the best way to do that is,,, to show off your Tech,,, small fry my ass theirs many a potential win for consumer and nvidia  going awry here..



I hate smart phones. If you are so dumb as to not know where you are in your own town then get a map! If you are so dependent on a smart phone and app to help you out every day of your life you need to seek some real help and fast! 
What is the world coming to when I need to tell my smart phone to remind me to clean up my home? How lazy and stupid are we any way? Really people! so your android phone has a nVidia video card? OH man!


----------



## Kreij (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> What is the world coming to ...



Just wake up from a long nap or something? People can't live anymore without texting, sharing pictures, facebook and the like.

For the record ... I have a dumb phone. It's just for calling people.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> I hate smart phones. If you are so dumb as to not know where you are in your own town then get a map! If you are so dependent on a smart phone and app to help you out every day of your life you need to seek some real help and fast!
> What is the world coming to when I need to tell my smart phone to remind me to clean up my home? How lazy and stupid are we any way? Really people! so your android phone has a nVidia video card? OH man!



Yeah, that makes total sense.  I service Chicago, ever major Chicago suburb, and NWI.  I could have 50 maps of every city in my car, that makes so much more sense than just using my Smartphone...


----------



## Wrigleyvillain (Jun 18, 2012)

erocker said:


> What's the issue specifically? I was running Ubuntu on an AMD system and didn't have any problems... other than my initial Linux n00biness.



I believe it was re. the ease of getting proper 3D support functioning and perhaps also performance-related gripes about AMD cards under Linux compared to NV but I'm less sure about the latter.


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

Kreij said:


> Just wake up from a long nap or something? People can't live anymore without texting, sharing pictures, facebook and the like.
> 
> For the record ... I have a dumb phone. It's just for calling people.



No just got the divorce! 

For the record I hope to GOD in Heaven that the SUN will blast out a CME so big that it wipes out all this shit! Really I do! I have no use for texting, WTF is that all about any way? You text some one WHY? Send a letter a phone is to TALK to people not tell you to feed the baby! Or take a shit! The problem is this as I see it. Technology has gone just way to far and now we are seeing the results of this as the dumbing down of the people of the world. Most people are so stupid now they need a GPS in there car to go 3 blocks away from there home! I mean COME ON! Grow a brain think for your self learn things from a book! Please GOD send this planet a CME so large the aurora's will be seen in Texas!


----------



## Wrigleyvillain (Jun 18, 2012)

Dude I hate talking on the damn phone. Especially in public. Texting is a godsend IMO. And I'm an older, relatively-frumpy fuck like you. Well maybe not quite _that_ much.


----------



## ocre (Jun 18, 2012)

nvidia wants to protect its technology best it can.  They support linux completely with drivers, very stable and good drivers at that.  They just havent been generous when it comes to giving away their code.  Nvidia would rather give out drivers they made for linux than give away their code to open source.  If you think about it, why would nvidia want to give away their secrets?  Stuff like optimus gives nvidia a competitive edge, lots of money went into it and people really expect nvidia to give this code away to the open source. 

the difference between nvidia and other companies is that nvidia considers itself a software company just as much as it is hardware.  They have invested handsomely into their software and have some of the best programmers they can grab up.  They think highly of their software and want to protect it.  Its their investment.

 I dont understand what the issue really is  
nvidia has drivers available to anyone who uses Linux. There is no need to try to reverse engineer  them in the first place.  These guys are making a big fuss and it makes you wonder what the underline reasoning is.  What are they really lacking here?   Nvidia has every reason to protect their technology.


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> Dude I hate talking on the damn phone. Especially in public. Texting is a godsend IMO. And I'm an older, relatively-frumpy fuck like you.



Then do not talk in public! I mean all this smart phone this app that ipod this ipad that. Have you not seen just how dumb this is making humans? How many here know how to read a MAP? I do! I know North, South, East and West but now the Smart phone does all the work for you no need to grow a brain!


----------



## faramir (Jun 18, 2012)

deadmansclick said:


> I agree. The comment you make about the girls question just reminds me of smart people trying to tell me that apple is the way to go



Well, you don't appear to be too bright either, in spite of your snide remak. The girl in video mentioned she bought her computer quite some time ago [when Optimus was fresh] and assumed NVidia would come up with support for it eventually [as they had with basic functions of their graphics cards such as displaying picture]. Not an unreasonable expectation from a paying customer to have a product supported in full. Others have listed examples of companies that either care enough to support their products directly (be it with open or closed drivers) or at least volunteer the information needed to others so they can do their work for them, at no cost.

The comment you made reminds me of dumb people tryiong to tell me that - in their opinion - somebody else isn't very smart, while they seem to be pretty thick themselves.


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

What a real professional guy is all I can say!


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> I hate smart phones. If you are so dumb as to not know where you are in your own town then get a map! If you are so dependent on a smart phone and app to help you out every day of your life you need to seek some real help and fast!
> What is the world coming to when I need to tell my smart phone to remind me to clean up my home? How lazy and stupid are we any way? Really people! so your android phone has a nVidia video card? OH man!



calm thy self,,, its a phone 1st and whatever else 2nd,, i dont use/need maps web books or games, but now and again.

your missing the PAD angle too plus other netportal type devices , tegra telly with lynux back os anyone.



ocre said:


> nvidia wants to protect its technology best it can. They support linux completely with drivers, very stable and good drivers at that. They just havent been generous when it comes to giving away their code. Nvidia would rather give out drivers they made for linux than give away their code to open source. If you think about it, why would nvidia want to give away their secrets? Stuff like optimus gives nvidia a competitive edge, lots of money went into it and people really expect nvidia to give this code away to the open source.
> 
> the difference between nvidia and other companies is that nvidia considers itself a software company just as much as it is hardware. They have invested handsomely into their software and have some of the best programmers they can grab up. They think highly of their software and want to protect it. Its their investment.
> 
> ...



a reasonable and sensible argument, i think the final lines the one 

What are they really lacking here? Nvidia has every reason to protect their technology

yes and also in this case ,every reason to help or come to a reasonable compromise so whats up Nv?


----------



## trickson (Jun 18, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> calm thy self,,, its a phone 1st and whatever else 2nd,, i dont use/need maps web books or games, but now and again.
> 
> your missing the PAD angle too plus other netportal type devices , tegra telly with lynux back os anyone.



Okay. But still if Linux wants to get "IN" this is not how one goes about doing this. nVidia doesn't need some 2 bit OS maker to tell them to F off and flip them the bird that is not how you make friends!


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 18, 2012)

faramir said:


> Well, you don't appear to be too bright either, in spite of your snide remak. The girl in video mentioned she bought her computer quite some time ago [when Optimus was fresh] and assumed NVidia would come up with support for it eventually [as they had with basic functions of their graphics cards such as displaying picture]. Not an unreasonable expectation from a paying customer to have a product supported in full. Others have listed examples of companies that either care enough to support their products directly (be it with open or closed drivers) or at least volunteer the information needed to others so they can do their work for them, at no cost.
> 
> The comment you made reminds me of dumb people tryiong to tell me that - in their opinion - somebody else isn't very smart, while they seem to be pretty thick themselves.



Except nVidia announced the Optimus wouldn't work on anything other than Windows 7(they didn't even build in support for Vista), so her expectations were idiotic.  A smart person will not buy hardware with the expectation that support will be added at some point, a smart person buys hardware that is already supported.

And the product she paid for is supported in full, on the OS that came with the hardware. She can't bitch because she changed something and it broke.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> Okay. But still if Linux wants to get "IN" this is not how one goes about doing this. nVidia doesn't need some 2 bit OS maker to tell them to F off and flip them the bird that is not how you make friends!



you have it the wrong way round their Trickson,,, its Nvidia that needs to get more IN to lynux or their bottom line might start to suffer, if they pushed their unique features better and supported it their hardware might impress and sell,, More simples..



trickson said:


> For the record I hope to GOD in Heaven that the SUN will blast out a CME so big that it wipes out all this shit! Really I do! I have no use for texting, WTF is that all about any way? You text some one WHY? Send a letter a phone is to TALK to people not tell you to feed the baby! Or take a shit! The problem is this as I see it. Technology has gone just way to far and now we are seeing the results of this as the dumbing down of the people of the world. Most people are so stupid now they need a GPS in there car to go 3 blocks away from there home! I mean COME ON! Grow a brain think for your self learn things from a book! Please GOD send this planet a CME so large the aurora's will be seen in Texas!



a completely unreasonable a relatively senseless waffle by you connected and fapping on a world wide web connected game ready pc

your only throwin that down cos your pc's old and you wana claim the insurance payout for a new 1


----------



## remixedcat (Jun 18, 2012)

trickson said:


> No just got the divorce!
> 
> For the record I hope to GOD in Heaven that the SUN will blast out a CME so big that it wipes out all this shit! Really I do! I have no use for texting, WTF is that all about any way? You text some one WHY? Send a letter a phone is to TALK to people not tell you to feed the baby! Or take a shit! The problem is this as I see it. Technology has gone just way to far and now we are seeing the results of this as the dumbing down of the people of the world. Most people are so stupid now they need a GPS in there car to go 3 blocks away from there home! I mean COME ON! Grow a brain think for your self learn things from a book! Please GOD send this planet a CME so large the aurora's will be seen in Texas!



if you hate tech then why the fuck are you on a tech forum?


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 18, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> you have it the wrong way round their Trickson,,, its Nvidia that needs to get more IN to lynux or their bottom line might start to suffer, if they pushed their unique features better and supported it their hardware might impress and sell,, More simples..



They obviously have made the decision that going after ~1-2% of the market is not worth the development cost, and I can't say I disagree.  Especially when you consider that of that 1-2% nVidia is only likely to see about 25%, so they would really be going after about 0.25-0.50% of the market, I can't see that amount making up for the development costs.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 18, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> They obviously have made the decision that going after ~1-2%



if you roll in all lynux os based devices, id imagine a higher percentage, and look at physx, good but shit, and no games use it, yet they push desktop cards on its prowess,, and this trick wouldnt work in other markets


----------



## deadmansclick (Jun 19, 2012)

faramir said:


> Well, you don't appear to be too bright either, in spite of your snide remak. The girl in video mentioned she bought her computer quite some time ago [when Optimus was fresh] and assumed NVidia would come up with support for it eventually [as they had with basic functions of their graphics cards such as displaying picture]. Not an unreasonable expectation from a paying customer to have a product supported in full. Others have listed examples of companies that either care enough to support their products directly (be it with open or closed drivers) or at least volunteer the information needed to others so they can do their work for them, at no cost.
> 
> The comment you made reminds me of dumb people tryiong to tell me that - in their opinion - somebody else isn't very smart, while they seem to be pretty thick themselves.



I don't really see how you construed that from my comment. I know what the girl in the video said & i was merely pointing out that people i know, that are also very intelligent in their specific computing area will try & argue that macs are a better choice over a pc.

I think that has a parallel to the girl making the comment. She is obviously cleaver enough to program & be at uni but that doesn't stop her making bad choices with the hardware shes uses.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 19, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> if you roll in all lynux os based devices, id imagine a higher percentage, and look at physx, good but shit, and no games use it, yet they push desktop cards on its prowess,, and this trick wouldnt work in other markets



Again, those devices are a totally different category that nVidia is handling totally differently.  They've made hardware just for that market segment.

No laptops use Optimus, yet the stupid chick in the video bought one, so you sure that trick won't work in other markets?  And there are PhysX games for Android...


----------



## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Jun 19, 2012)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> If you think NVIDIA+linux could be bad... oh just wait to try AMD+linux...



Actually I have had more problem with Nvidia cards under Linux. I have yet to have a problem with a Amd/Ati card.





trickson said:


> Hey Linux you want some thing better to work with? Then make a mainstream OS like Windows or SHUT THE FUCK UP!



They do, it's called Ubuntu. And it works great. I have actually though about switching all my rigs over.


----------



## SonDa5 (Jun 19, 2012)

My experience with NVIDIA and mobile devices was with Tmobile/LG G2X which had an NVIDIA for processing.  The device was terribly unstable and I blame the NVIDIA Tegra 2 chipset for the problem.


----------



## jigar2speed (Jun 19, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> im no linux fan , ive not a clue how to use it and had the clearly blinkerred view you and nvidia have before, but ive an android phone now so things change and nvidias views on linux need to change, and will, id put my left(rights not leavin me) arm on nvidia backing linux or fadeing from this world,tegra2,3,4,5,8,99,x, denver nuff said.
> 
> Huang would no sooner cut his left tatty off then loose mobile Oem contracts, so they will get in line.



I own Optimus 2X, world's first dual core CPU mobile phone (Cynogen mod 9 ICS 4.4 Nova Rom), i know how i am being treated by Nvidia.


----------



## Melvis (Jun 19, 2012)

His comment is backed by reason of course, you only get emotion from a reason, so who ever said yes to emotion


----------



## RoutedScripter (Jun 19, 2012)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> If you think NVIDIA+linux could be bad... oh just wait to try AMD+linux...





naoan said:


> Kind of ironic when in the past, ATi is considered a bad match for Linux (and yes it was, experienced one many distro simply not booting because of ATi myself).
> 
> It seem to got better these days.



I had Mint Debian running for 3+ months and had no problems, Sapphire Radeon HD5850



newtekie1 said:


> NVidia has always had a hands off approach to Linux.  I thought it was common knowledge to avoid nVidia if you wanted to run linux and have decent video hardware support.  And, IMO, that is a perfectly legitimate stance to have.  Yes, it would be nice if they better supported Linux, but honestly why would they?  The market share for linux is so small that putting all that development time into proper support likely wouldn't amount to a profit.
> 
> And the girl asking the question annoys me.  She is smart enough to use linux on a daily basis, but not smart enough to pick hardware that properly supports it?  WTF?!



Are you a filthy capitalist ?


----------



## entropy13 (Jun 19, 2012)

I don't see the problem here. 99.9% of Linux systems over here use integrated graphics anyway, since they're just for word processing, internet browsing, etc. 

And there are a lot of Linux systems over here (usually Ubuntu) since they're free and all the donors have to spend on is sending over the hardware here.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 19, 2012)

aussiebear said:


> What an absolute load of nonsense. You clearly do NOT know the open community and the behaviour of companies it has to tolerate. Linus Torvalds does NOT run a business. He is a project leader for the Linux *Kernel*. He actually gets paid by other companies in terms of salary and shares. *He doesn't lose anything by telling Nvidia to go f**k themselves.*



So the brainchild of Linux has nothing to lose by insulting companies that are using a Linux variant as one of their primary platforms? By creating hostility you always have something to lose. Not just those who sign your check effect your business, it is bigger than that. He is the first person you think of when you mention Linux to most people, not just a simple developer. You can't downplay that. 

From my understanding from the outside was that Nvidia assisted with open source drivers to the Linux platform.And apparently I am wrong. I also didn't hear about AMD making efforts to help much on the driver side until very recently and was always told the Nvidia drivers were more stable than the AMD/ATi alternative on Linux. You have apparently joined the forum just to say it isn't the case which is fine. *But try to show a little respect when you start off.* Adults address each other in a mature way(see etiquette).  Not with a fuck you like Torvalds. If there was a single man who would be the face of Linux I would say it would be Torvalds. If he is then seen acting out like a child throwing a fit, then it would hurt his cause. Business is what it is and a healthy relation with as many companies as possible is always best. If you feel otherwise then you obviously don't fit within the business world for making business decisions.



Melvis said:


> His comment is backed by reason of course, you only get emotion from a reason, so who ever said yes to emotion



Or your emotion is your reason.... either way it's a poll that was worded badly.


----------



## btarunr (Jun 19, 2012)

ocre said:


> nvidia wants to protect its technology best it can.  They support linux completely with drivers, very stable and good drivers at that.  They just havent been generous when it comes to giving away their code.  Nvidia would rather give out drivers they made for linux than give away their code to open source.  If you think about it, why would nvidia want to give away their secrets?  Stuff like optimus gives nvidia a competitive edge, lots of money went into it and people really expect nvidia to give this code away to the open source.



Again, the issue isn't about the source, it's about the features. NVIDIA can give those features via proprietary drivers, and nobody would complain. Linux ≠ "keep everything open-source."

The problem is NVIDIA doesn't give those features with its proprietary drivers, and doesn't allow open-source driver projects such as Nouveau to try and somehow get things to work, either.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 19, 2012)

btarunr said:


> Again, the issue isn't about the source, it's about the features.



I think this point is just being ignored.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 19, 2012)

btarunr said:


> Again, the issue isn't about the source, it's about the features. NVIDIA can give those features via proprietary drivers, and nobody would complain. Linux ≠ "keep everything open-source."
> 
> The problem is NVIDIA doesn't give those features with its proprietary drivers, *and doesn't allow open-source driver projects such as Nouveau to try and somehow get things to work, either.*



That seems totally wrong to me.  I don't see nVidia not allowing Nouveau to do anything, just like they aren't stopping people from developing open-source ways to use Optimus.  They just aren't giving the people any help.  If the people want to spend their time developing open-source ways to get nVidia features working on Linux, nVidia lets them, but nVidia isn't wasting any time doing it themselves because there isn't any money to be made.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 19, 2012)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Are you a filthy capitalist ?


 I am. Very proud of it too. I don't support slavery in any way.

Also NVIDIA is the worst company against my pocket book thats for sure! Damn them!


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Jun 19, 2012)

Given that you also work with AMD I don't see how that's possible . . . 


But in all seriousness I take most things Linus Torvalds says with a grain of salt, this is the same man that called his own Kernel "bloated", I respect him a lot, but sometimes he says some things that aren't true or are fueled by emotion rather than fact.


----------



## Wile E (Jun 20, 2012)

trickson said:


> No just got the divorce!
> 
> For the record I hope to GOD in Heaven that the SUN will blast out a CME so big that it wipes out all this shit! Really I do! I have no use for texting, WTF is that all about any way? You text some one WHY? Send a letter a phone is to TALK to people not tell you to feed the baby! Or take a shit! The problem is this as I see it. Technology has gone just way to far and now we are seeing the results of this as the dumbing down of the people of the world. Most people are so stupid now they need a GPS in there car to go 3 blocks away from there home! I mean COME ON! Grow a brain think for your self learn things from a book! Please GOD send this planet a CME so large the aurora's will be seen in Texas!



Funny, I read books on my smartphone. I also just use the map app on it and pick my own route (as GPS always seems to route me some fucked up way) so I am essentially reading a map. I have to service a roughly 200mi radius outward from Pittsburgh at my work. Having maps instead would be a complete and utterly useless waste of paper, especially when one little device does any map I want in the world. Oh, plus it plays my music while on the road.

It's a win/win.



SonDa5 said:


> My experience with NVIDIA and mobile devices was with Tmobile/LG G2X which had an NVIDIA for processing.  The device was terribly unstable and I blame the NVIDIA Tegra 2 chipset for the problem.



Then you would be blaming the wrong thing. My Atrix is unstable too on the stock firmware. Runs like a champ on CM7 though, with no instability at all. Your problems came from LG's code, not the chipset.


----------



## SIGSEGV (Jun 20, 2012)

i'm not surprising at all, oh nvidia..lmao


----------



## digibucc (Jun 20, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> nVidia isn't wasting any time doing it themselves because there isn't any money to be made.



see that alone i have an issue with - there is plenty of money to be made you just have to think farther ahead then the next few months.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jun 20, 2012)

One does not simply said fuck off to nVidia.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 20, 2012)

digibucc said:


> see that alone i have an issue with - there is plenty of money to be made you just have to think farther ahead then the next few months.



Where exactly is this money to be made?  Chasing 1% of the market, where they will only get about 0.25% of the market in the end to use their products because they add support, and they will spend huge amounts of money on software development to do it.  I don't see money to be made there, just money to be thrown away.


----------



## Xzibit (Jun 20, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> Where exactly is this money to be made?  Chasing 1% of the market, where they will only get about 0.25% of the market in the end to use their products because they add support, and they will spend huge amounts of money on software development to do it.  I don't see money to be made there, just money to be thrown away.



Nvidia has spend close to 2 billion dollars buying up wireless tech phone patents in the last few months. 

They have one Tegra 3 phone and 6 Tegra phones over all.

I think they like throwing money away.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 20, 2012)

Xzibit said:


> Nvidia has spend close to 2 billion dollars buying up wireless tech phone patents in the last few months.
> 
> They have one Tegra 3 phone and 6 Tegra phones over all.
> 
> I think they like throwing money away.



There is plenty of money to be made in the smartphone industry though, so it isn't throwing money away. They will eventually make that money back and a whole lot more, if not on phones that use Tegra on licencing from other manufacturer's phones that just use the patents.  

There is no money in PC Linux.


----------



## Xzibit (Jun 20, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> There is plenty of money to be made in the smartphone industry though, so it isn't throwing money away. They will eventually make that money back and a whole lot more, if not on phones that use Tegra on licencing from other manufacturer's phones that just use the patents.
> 
> There is no money in PC Linux.



Well if they plan on making there money back I would guess they have to be much more friendlier with people programing with OpenCL.

The ability to have a strong phone that can handle the App market in order to take advantage of revenue would be the key.  I dont think people develop apps on phones but rather PCs.  I would venture to guess that it would have to be more accepting of people taking advantage of there chip phone capabilities to develop such apps and showcase the strenght of said chip or is it gonna want to hinder its acceptance into the app world.  

That goes to the base arguement of Nvidia being restrictive on the feature set.  It doesnt make sense if they plan on showcasing said features and then very few apps get those exclusive abilities built into them.  

It has a potention of just being a marketing feature strategy like PhysX.   Once in a grand while a game will use it and it takes a +30% performance hit when its active.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 20, 2012)

Xzibit said:


> Well if they plan on making there money back I would guess they have to be much more friendlier with people programing with OpenCL.
> 
> The ability to have a strong phone that can handle the App market in order to take advantage of revenue would be the key.  I dont think people develop apps on phones but rather PCs.  I would venture to guess that it would have to be more accepting of people taking advantage of there chip phone capabilities to develop such apps and showcase the strenght of said chip or is it gonna want to hinder its acceptance into the app world.
> 
> ...



Why would they need to be more friendly with people programming OpenCL?  They support OpenCL, if people want to make programs that use it they can.  There isn't much more nVidia needs to do here.

People write the code on PCs, yes, but the either test it on an Android emulator or an actual Android phone.  And the Apps are usually written in Windows, nVidia doesn't need to support PC Linux, there is no money there, period.


----------



## D007 (Jun 20, 2012)

Wow, if you want a child to run your company, hire this guy.. No ethical businessman would respond in such a juvenile manner..


----------



## trickson (Jun 20, 2012)

D007 said:


> Wow, if you want a child to run your company, hire this guy.. No ethical businessman would respond in such a juvenile manner..



Yeah I so agree! This is a foolish thing to do! What a dip shit!


----------



## erocker (Jun 20, 2012)

Lol, Linux is free.


----------



## trickson (Jun 20, 2012)

erocker said:


> Lol, Linux is free.



That would seem to be the problem.


----------



## Steevo (Jun 20, 2012)

In 2009 a third of Dell mini laptops shipped with Ubuntu, and actual figures place Linux distros at closer to 8% total market share with netbooks, laptops, and desktops running it from the get go.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 20, 2012)

Steevo said:


> In 2009 a third of Dell mini laptops shipped with Ubuntu, and actual figures place Linux distros at closer to 8% total market share with netbooks, laptops, and desktops running it from the get go.



That was only because it was free and manufacturers wanted netbooks to be cheap.  Once Microsoft started giving away Windows versions for the manufacturers to use for essentially free on netbooks the use of Linux all but stopped.  Outside of the server side, how many consumer level models does Dell even offer with Linux today?


----------



## DM3K (Jun 23, 2012)

Dell still offers netbooks and laptops with ubuntu, however they have to be special ordered, so consumers are unlikely to see them in stores.


----------



## techtard (Jun 23, 2012)

Apparently, someone else agrees with Mr. Torvalds.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEyNTE


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 23, 2012)

DM3K said:


> Dell still offers netbooks and laptops with ubuntu, however they have to be special ordered, so consumers are unlikely to see them in stores.



A few business laptops and desktops, yes, but no netbooks and nothing in the home market.  Even if you call Dell direct you can't get a "home" computer with linux from them.  And, Dell doesn't even sell netbooks anymore.


----------



## remixedcat (Jun 24, 2012)

If linus torvalds would have kept his little mouth shut and not told nvidia to **** off (literally) then nvidia prolly would have eventually warmed up.... I don't blame nvidia for them not catering to these douchebags.

Telling someone to "**** off" is not gonna make them want to help you and help your cause... it's only gonna make them NOT WANT TO DO IT AT ALL.

Good job Linus Torvalds and co.... you just dug your own graves.


----------



## HellasVagabond (Jun 24, 2012)

I am surprised that people are so excited because 1 person told NV to go and do something....People can't always like everyone, I'm sure that a person with Linus character and "morals" (making such statements in front of students is ridiculous) will dislike pretty much everyone, no surprise there. Personally i couldn't care less about what he says especially since i don't consider him to be a professional (professionalism = unbiased).

I just hope this wasn't due to external influence.


----------

