# LED lightbulbs question



## natr0n (Feb 26, 2018)

When it comes to home lightbulbs why do they output more heat than they are rated for ?

I got some 60 watt equivalent daylight bulbs rated at 9 actual watts.

When you touch the base of these thing you can cook an eggs on them.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 26, 2018)

The base of them is basically an AC/DC power supply.  If you want them to last a long time, they have to keep cool (can't put them in a light fixture that has a cover preventing air flow, for example).

The LED lights I measured ended up drawing significantly more power than the label on the package claims they should.  This was also the case with CFL.


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## TheLostSwede (Feb 26, 2018)

Actually, it's not just the AC/DC conversion that's a problem when it comes to heat, as modern, efficient AC/DC converters (much like PC power supplies) can easily have an efficiency rating of 90% or more, which means not a lot is wasted in heat.

The bigger heat source is actually the LED's themselves, that's why they're mounted on a metal backed PCB, which is very different from the fibre glass PCB you'll find inside a PC for example. This is done to help dissipate the heat from the individual LED's so they don't overheat and fail. The LED PCB is then usually mounted on an aluminium "holder" that then connects to the outer housing of the LED bulb, which is again made out of metal to help dissipate the heat.

The issue is that something like a 9W LED packs in quite a lot of LED's on a comparatively small surface area and this produces a lot of heat that needs to go somewhere. Normally, the fewer LED's inside the bulb, the more heat each LED outputs. Different manufacturers have different means of solving this problem, although by now, most LED bulbs have smooth outsides, although some higher-power bulbs still have large heatsinks as their outside surface, as did most LED bulbs in the early days.

There have even been attempts at making liquid cooled LED bulbs, but these were complex and costly and as such simply weren't competitive in the market. Here's an example of such a bulb being taken apart. The guy that posted that video has a lot of LED bulb teardowns.


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 26, 2018)

I guess It depends on what kind you use. The type I have don't get warm at all ,they don't get anywhere near as warm as a standard lightbulb.  I don't know if it's due to the design, or the way the casing is built ,but you could  holding your bare hand and you never know it had been plugged in.

Again I don't know if mine are different from yours I'm sure they make many different types






I suppose the actual LED bulb would be inside of this "bulb". FWIW,  these bulbs I have go inside of the glass dome mounted on the ceiling. They've been running for over 2 1/2 years now and I've never had to change them.   I had to clean the glass domes about a week ago , & to do so ,I had to remove the bulbs, and they were no different than room temperature. Got em at homedepot, pretty cheap i have the 7watt, 10 watt, and 14 or something


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## natr0n (Feb 26, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> I guess It depends on what kind you use. The type I have don't get warm at all ,they don't get anywhere near as warm as a standard lightbulb.  I don't know if it's due to the design, or the way the casing is built ,but you could  holding your bare hand and you never know it had been plugged in.
> 
> Again I don't know if mine are different from yours I'm sure they make many different types
> 
> ...


 mine look just like those.


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 26, 2018)

natr0n said:


> mine look just like those.



It may be that yours have a  casing that is really thermally conductive ,so that the heat generated inside is felt prominently  outside.   if it becomes a problem ,just head over to Home Depot or Lowes or something ,they normally have them on sale & you can grab some cheap.  For what it's worth, the Doma on the bulb in the picture I posted above is plastic as is the casing below it. There may be some type of insulation to avoid burning your hand, because I had to use gloves when I replaced the standard bulbs with these years back


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 26, 2018)

natr0n said:


> mine look just like those.



Being a walmart brand vs the brand jboydgolfer used can make all the difference.


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## Sasqui (Feb 26, 2018)

I'm about 80% done switching over from CFLs to LED at my place.  Kill a watt typically shows 8-9 watts for most 60w equivalent Less.  Some get warmer than others but I think it really comes down to the heat dissipation characteristics.  Some of the better quality bulbs have heatsink fins at the base, others don't.  It's the ones that don't that get warmer, but certainly none hot enough to burn or cook an egg!


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 26, 2018)

I’ve completely switched all bulbs in the house. Yes, they do put out heat still, but it is nowhere near the head that standard bulbs output.  So despite some heat, it makes for a cooler house in the summer.


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## natr0n (Feb 26, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Being a walmart brand vs the brand jboydgolfer used can make all the difference.



True.
In the meantime when I dont turn on the bulb; I use a simple desk led light 4-6 watts light up my whole room when pointed at ceiling doesnt ever get warm either.


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## qubit (Feb 26, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The LED lights I measured ended up drawing significantly more power than the label on the package claims they should. This was also the case with CFL.


I'm surprised that they can get away with that. Could there have been an error in your measurement perhaps, especially regarding power factor?

To everyone: even if they don't draw more than 9W or so, they can still get very hot if there's nowhere for the heat to go.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Feb 26, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Being a walmart brand vs the brand jboydgolfer used can make all the difference.


yep, like anything else in this world, you get what you pay for, buying cheap you get cheap quality.


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## Sasqui (Feb 26, 2018)

qubit said:


> I'm surprised that they can get away with that. Could there have been an error in your measurement perhaps, especially regarding power factor?



That is surprising.  All the bulbs I've tested are either spot on or 0.5 W lower than the rating on the box.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 26, 2018)

TheLostSwede said:


> Actually, it's not just the AC/DC conversion that's a problem when it comes to heat, as modern, efficient AC/DC converters (much like PC power supplies) can easily have an efficiency rating of 90% or more, which means not a lot is wasted in heat.


If PFC which is expensive.  The cheap LED lights are not, hence the substantial heat at the base.  They're probably about 70% efficient so 30% of of the wattage consumed is going straight to waste heat.



jboydgolfer said:


> I guess It depends on what kind you use. The type I have don't get warm at all ,they don't get anywhere near as warm as a standard lightbulb.  I don't know if it's due to the design, or the way the casing is built ,but you could  holding your bare hand and you never know it had been plugged in.


The plastic top, sure.  It's the base (metal bits) that gets scalding hot.



qubit said:


> I'm surprised that they can get away with that. Could there have been an error in your measurement perhaps, especially regarding power factor?


Only possible explanation is that the switch on the lamp is terrible.  And it sort of is.  But I doubt to that extent.


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## Sasqui (Feb 26, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If PFC which is expensive.  The cheap LED lights are not, hence the substantial heat at the base.  They're probably about 70% efficient so 30% of of the wattage consumed is going straight to waste heat.
> 
> 
> The plastic top, sure.  It's the base (metal bits) that gets scalding hot.



Just out of curiosity , I looked up the maximum theoretical lumens per watt for an LED itself.  Assuming all light in the visible spectrum, It hovers somewhere around 390 lumens per watt.  Our off the shelf LED bulbs are around 100 lumens/watt.

There is obviously a difference between the power inverter efficiency and the efficiency of the LED lights themselves... they both give off lost energy in heat (obviously)


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 26, 2018)

Our local dollar store had a bunch and I ended up going back for a bunch more. 60w equivalent and they barely get warm. For $1, if they last a year, it's a good buy. CFL's put out much more heat.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 26, 2018)

Mine have been running ~16 hours straight.  The they are 90F at the tip and the hottest temp is 184F at the base (about dead center of the visible portion of the base).  It's open air, no cover.  It probably takes a long time to raise up to that temp but they will get there.  CFLs get hot too, especially at the base.

They are TCP, 8.5w, 800 lumen.  If memory serves, Kill-A-Watt detected 13-14w actual consumption.


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## lZKoce (Feb 26, 2018)

I haven't really checked the base to be honest. All my LED's are Philips, because they are almost the only one here with 1500 lumens per bulb. I like to have very clear light everywhere. I just can't stand a murky, muddy lighting for where I work/read/ play...whatever. Which reminds me, I need a desklamp. Probably from Ikea. I really like these guys


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## qubit (Feb 26, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Only possible explanation is that the switch on the lamp is terrible. And it sort of is. But I doubt to that extent.


Maybe. My money is still on power factor correction.


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## Sasqui (Feb 26, 2018)

qubit said:


> Maybe. My money is still on power factor correction.



Personally, I doubt it... power factor is caused mostly by inductive reactance ...not much of that going on in a small power inverter.


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 26, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The plastic top, sure. It's the base (metal bits) that gets scalding hot.




 I was referring to the entire bulb ,anywhere on it at all. Unless it's cooling off from the time I get it unscrewed ,to where I touch it (which I guess is a possibility) but it's not warm when i hold (and handed it to my 9 y/o daughter).  When I took them out recently, I was on a stepstool (because they were ceiling mounted),and my daughter was on the floor helping me.


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## newtekie1 (Feb 26, 2018)

People often confuse heat for temperature too.  Just remember, just because something gets hot, doesn't mean it is actually producing a lot of heat.  For the most part, the only area to disipate the heat generated on an LED light bulb is the base and screw.  It doesn't take long for a small amount of heat generated to raise the temperature of that small surface area.

The bases get hot by design, they are heatsinks by design.


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 26, 2018)

I got 3 cabalara bulbs for 9-12 bux, way better than the cfls. CFLS are dinosaurs even compared to incadescent bulbs lol.

I have ballasts in the kitchen, really dont want to change them out, if they make leds in that surly I will get them


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## Sasqui (Feb 26, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I got 3 cabalara bulbs for 9-12 bux, way better than the cfls. CFLS are dinosaurs even compared to incadescent bulbs lol.
> 
> I have ballasts in the kitchen, really dont want to change them out, if they make leds in that surly I will get them



I had two circ-line fluorescent fixtures in my kitchen, I gutted them of ballasts and hardware, and put in 3 standard sockets... tight fit but it worked.  They now have both CFL's and LEDs in them to balance the light (warm and soft white).  And soooo much cheaper to replace bulbs.

They make LED replacement bulbs for the long tube types *HERES ONE* ... it requires you to remove the ballast before using it


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## erocker (Feb 26, 2018)

All the lights in my house are GE LED's. Of all the bulbs I have 3 that get hot at the base. Two are flood light replacements that go over the "kitchen bar", and the other is a 75w replacement in my work room. That one is a bit older than the rest (it's larger/longer too) and it gets really hot. From a couple videos n' such I've seen LED's seem to be cooled in a way that CPU's are cooled. There's a concentrated hot part that needs dissipation. The lower collar of the bulbs seem to be connected to that part and dissipate the heat. Anyways, 75w equivalent bulbs seem to be the point where they start getting warm to hot with this design.


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## natr0n (Feb 26, 2018)

Lots of bright ideas in here


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 27, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I have ballasts in the kitchen, really dont want to change them out, if they make leds in that surly I will get them


You should take a look here; 







I've done this. Remove the ballast, rewire, install led's and everything is good to go.


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## TheLostSwede (Feb 27, 2018)

Judging by this, dollar store bulbs can actually be rather good.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 27, 2018)

TheLostSwede said:


> Judging by this, dollar store bulbs can actually be rather good.


Adrian's review/overview of them is why I took a look at the dollar store bulbs. Same brand as well. He tested the 40w bulbs, but our store only had the 60w. They work great, don't get hot and so far use only about 8w per bulb for 800 lumens. Best dollar store buy ever. Ultimately ended up buying 30 of them.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 27, 2018)

My guess is the power companies are subsidizing the cost of the LED in that video.  I know power companies do that in Iowa because they want people to reduce their power consumption and that's an easy way to do it.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 27, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> My guess is the power companies are subsidizing the cost of the LED in that video.  I know power companies do that in Iowa because they want people to reduce their power consumption and that's an easy way to do it.


I can see that happening here as well. It's more likely a government thing though.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 27, 2018)

"From January 1, 2018, through December 31, 2018, participating Iowa electric utilities are helping residents make the simple switch to energy-efficient lighting by offering special pricing on ENERGY STAR® qualified LED bulb purchases of 12 or less."

Crap.  I have so many CFLs still in the package that I wanted to go through first before changing to LED.  With that program ending... 

Edit: Oh, I guess it got renewed for another year.

"There are no rebates, no paperwork and no hassles. Just go to your local participating retailer and look for the Be Bright label on the shelves in the lighting department."

"This label is your sign that you’re: Getting a discounted price, thanks to your utility. Compare it to some of the other options and see the difference for yourself."


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## Athlonite (Feb 27, 2018)

I've been slowly but surely replacing CFL's in my place as they go poo with LED bulbs, Phillips 9W 806 Lumins is quite bright but in the Kitchen I put a 14W one almost like bright daylight in there now


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## newtekie1 (Feb 27, 2018)

This guy does a lot of tear downs of LED bulbs, a lot of them cheap Chinese ones from ebay, but some from dollar/pound stores too.  He hasn't done one recently, but if you scroll down in his video about a year back he was doing a bunch.  Plus he does tear downs on a lot of other cheap Chinese crap off ebay too.

https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom/videos



FordGT90Concept said:


> My guess is the power companies are subsidizing the cost of the LED in that video.  I know power companies do that in Iowa because they want people to reduce their power consumption and that's an easy way to do it.



They do it in Indiana and Illinois as well.  Hell, in IL, they'll give you $50 for any working refrigerator.  No questions ask, no age restriction, it just has to turn on.  It is a program to get people to get rid of those old fridges they have sitting out in their garages cooling beer.



Athlonite said:


> I've been slowly but surely replacing CFL's in my place as they go poo with LED bulbs, Phillips 9W 806 Lumins is quite bright but in the Kitchen I put a 14W one almost like bright daylight in there now



When I bought my house last year, I went around and replaced every bulb with cool-white LEDs, because I like the white light and the power savings.  Then I went to replace the bulbs in the dome fixtures...and the fixtures were permanently wired with LED rings!  Menards apparently sells flush mount fixtures that are permanently wired LEDs.

https://www.menards.com/main/lighti...eiling-light-2-pack/c5668/p-1455974627746.htm


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 27, 2018)

newtekie1 said:


> They do it in Indiana and Illinois as well.  Hell, in IL, they'll give you $50 for any working refrigerator.  No questions ask, no age restriction, it just has to turn on.  It is a program to get people to get rid of those old fridges they have sitting out in their garages cooling beer.


Took advantage of that late last year. 


If I were building a new house, I'd probably install one power supply in each room that drives all of the LEDs in it.


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## jsfitz54 (Feb 27, 2018)

Can anyone recommend a good *dimmable* 60w equivalent bulb?

I happen to like the GE Bright Stik as a regular replacement but the style appears to have not caught on and have become hard to find.
2700K or 5000K
https://www.amazon.com/GE-Bright-Stik-Non-Dimmable-2700K/dp/B01LZ8K9JK

On a side note this post made me call the city and ask how these are going to be recycled due to the small circuit board inside them.
I asked if they are going to be treated like electronic recycling.  They said, NO.
Currently they are in the process of setting up Hazardous Waste Collection days for this type of trash. Only a few times a year. You have to preregister.

Compact CFLs I drop off at Home Depot or Lowes.
Lowes will take T12 4' types or 2' U-bends that have Mercury in them.  They usually have silver end caps and have the "Hg" marked on them.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 27, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> Can anyone recommend a good *dimmable* 60w equivalent bulb?


This is one that I bought for our hallway which acts as a night light on the lowest setting.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips...immable-LED-Smart-Light-Bulb-455295/206633282


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## jsfitz54 (Feb 27, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is one that I bought for our hallway which acts as a night light on the lowest setting.
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips...immable-LED-Smart-Light-Bulb-455295/206633282



Thanks for the suggestion.  I read the Specs and this seems expensive and requires an extra controller for all its functions.
I do like the Nightlight idea.

I have a dome shaped, ceiling, 2 bulb fixture, in a bedroom, so I want 2700K color temp.
The dimmer is already in place and would prefer not to have to swap out for incompatibility.


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## newtekie1 (Feb 27, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> Can anyone recommend a good *dimmable* 60w equivalent bulb?



Check your local hardware store(Menards/Home Depot) for Feit Electric bulbs.  They are usually cheap and very good, I have a bunch of them in my house.

Or if you just prefer to order off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Feit-Electric-Dimmable-Replacement-standard/dp/B01N3SGXDB/


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## erocker (Feb 27, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> Can anyone recommend a good *dimmable* 60w equivalent bulb?


These are working great for me. I have 4 on a bathroom vanity. https://www.amazon.com/GE-Lighting-...pID=31hlHPyundL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch


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