# State of Surround Sound Gaming (5.1/7.1) and its downfall. 1990-2006



## FreedomEclipse (Oct 31, 2018)

Ive had a bit of time to think about it and basically come down to the opinion that surround sound gaming is dead and has been dead for a long time or held in a cryogenically frozen/comatose state unable to decide if its dying or completely dead....

Most of the sound card makers from days of yore at least on the PC gaming market are long gone and have slowly been boiled down to two existing pillars of existence... Creative and Asus but everyone knows that Asus didnt really enter the sound card market until very late in the game and by that time with the death of Hardware Acceleration with the advent of Windows Vista. It was only a matter of time when the market became a featureless barren land.

Without hardware acceleration, sound cards are partially meaningless when it comes to gaming. Having a dedicated sound card might be a little better but onboard sound has also come a long way in the last few years.

Creative -- one of the last bastions when it came to audio in PC gaming has shifted focus more on other audio products rather than soundcards, even though they still make soundcards. Soundcard tech just hasnt moved. EAX is dead, DirectSound is dead, OpenAL is still alive but it might aswell be dead because creative has no desire to get it working properly and getting more games to support it.

searching for 5.1 speakers or 7.1 speaker sets for PC like the logitech Z5500's and its successor drew up very few hits, Creative dont really do 5.1 speakers anymore though they might have an extremely limited range Logitech have a few 5.1 speaker sets whereas the rest of the hits seem to be from Edifier and the usual rubbish from brands like TRUST and GENIUS

With the explosion of the Hi-fi audio and Audiophiles and the 'redirection' of the previous years speaker manufacturers pushing more or deeper into the headphone market. It it seems that the consumer market have abandoned surround sound gaming and play with a 2.1 or 2.0 speaker or headphone setup.

Asus's sound cards were never that great for gaming IMO. they couldn't reach the same pinnacle as creative did even without hardware acceleration. with their GX feature which worked like 'creative alchemy' was only a cheap imitation and i suffered many issues when using Asus cards back in the day when it came to gaming on older EAX supported titles.


Do you think that Soundcards or surround sound will become a thing again when it comes to PC gaming?

Or is the industry at a point where it doesnt matter anymore as developers use different technologies and most consumers dont have space for a surround sound setup??

Id like to hear your thoughts.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 31, 2018)

Sound cards, no. There's really nothing to justify their cost.
Surround sound gaming works as a function of most game engines.  Virtually all have positional audio systems.  I'm sort of excited for sound tracing technology that could be coming over the next few years.

Even with Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 speaker system, I'm almost always gaming with my Sennheiser HD 598 headphones.  Less power, less heat, less annoying other people in the house, more clarity because less air to pass through.

Developers don't target Creative's proprietary technology because it's rare.  Sound design, in general, isn't a huge priority for them beyond music (stereo) and voice over acting (mono-positional).


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## cadaveca (Oct 31, 2018)

I have an older HT amp with bookshelf speakers and a sub hooked up to my main gaming PC, along with a set of decent headphones. A lot of things are natively in surround on the PC still, so for me, it's a requirement that whatever audio solution I have offers some sort of digital encoding over optical in surround. For many motherboards this is either via Dolby or DTS support of some sort. I like DTS because it works with things like YouTube, too.

Things like Netflix and such are offering surround content for PC users, so why would games stop doing so? They haven't been that I have seen... 

Sound cards ARE pretty meaningless these days because we have pretty good audio on most motherboards, but not all boards are so lucky, so there are a lot of instances where some sort of device would be great. Having used so many boards myself, I've literally heard the difference between what's on offer out there, and there are definite differences too, so maybe what one board offers isn't to your ear's liking, so you need something different, and a sound card can offer that.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Oct 31, 2018)

I recently bought a Logitech Z906 5.1 Surround Sound System to replace my dead Corsair SP2500 2.1 system, which I use with my Creative SoundBlaster Z in 5.1 mode. It does work in the games I have tried like Warframe and Fallout 4 (I don't really play a lot of games), but 99.9% of my music is in 2.1 mode. They do have a 4.1 mode which I use for music. But they do work in 5.1 in games I've played.

On the note of soundcards; it's true, my onboard audio on my X470 Pro Gaming is at least as good as the sound card and has the same outputs for 5.1, 6 channel surround sound but I prefer the creative interface and some of its features (one called 'Crystaliser').


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## Deleted member 67555 (Oct 31, 2018)

I use a set of Dayton Audio T-652 Air towers on my PC... They don't sound great or bad at all but sound a lot better with a Sound Blaster card than with the mobo's 1220 something integrated.
I also use a pair of SoundPetes headphones for night...

I hate gaming with 5.1 unless I'm the only one home.

EAX was awesome on FEAR... Can't really remember anything else it was on.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 31, 2018)

Cant stand headphones


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 31, 2018)

Good to see that a lot of people still have surround sound setups. apart from the Home Theater setups I thought the days of surround sound gaming were dead even if games do support multi-directional audio. I just dont really see a drive for people to get 5.1 or 7.1 for gaming anymore but thats only my opinion. From a movie perspective though. I wouldnt have it any other way. I watched Castlevania from Netflix and the 5.1 in that was just so glorious.

I also think that surround sound gaming isnt as popular as it was pre-2005. I see a lot of people have moved onto using external DACs for 2.0 or 2.1 speakers and headphones these days that its hard not to notice the direction that the consumer is going.

Mult-directional audio in gaming will never die but people just dont seem to be as gung ho about it anymore. Creative and Asus seem to promote more in the way of headphones/soundcards rather than they do actual surround sound gaming even though their cards support 5.1 etc etc.


Maybe im just feeling a little nostalgic. I remember playing L4D with EAX+surround sound and all that and it was one of the best experiences ive ever had as far as making me shit myself is concerned..... FEAR was also a game that gave me many a brown trousers moments but it just feels like those days are few and far between or long gone.


I remember being so chuffed to play BF2 with my new Creative XFi Xtreme Music card and i got some serious enjoyment out of that as did all the other BF titles that came after that. Having surround sound really added to the experience but maybe as Im getting old that Im starting to think of it as a bit more of a gimmick as developers dont really put any serious effort into directional audio on games?? At least this is how i feel about it. Its not as immersive as it once was.


Maybe quality matters to me more than quantity now.


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## INSTG8R (Oct 31, 2018)

Strictly play in 5.1 and I assure you everything has proper 5.1 support. I have a pair of Cloud II for night gaming the difference is huge with the advantage going to 5.1


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## windwhirl (Oct 31, 2018)

Sound cards are probably never again going to be as popular as they were in the '90s, except for audiophiles and professional use-cases. On-board audio has been deemed good enough for most people, although more than once we have seen motherboards that are not that good (the X470 Taichi Ultimate is a recent example of relatively bad performance, considering its price range).

On the matter of what I use to listen to sound, I go with a pair of Logitech headphones (G430) and 2.1 Logitech speakers. I never really bothered much about surround sound, because:

1- A surround speakers system takes space, which I don't have much of, and I don't like throwing cables in every direction to set it up. And I don't want to go wireless either, living in a building with a hundred WiFi networks around.

2- It's expensive compared to 2.0/2.1 systems, and it gets even more expensive if I want really high quality components/hardware. I don't have the wallet to pay for that. I'd rather buy a high quality headset, something that I can't pay for either.

3- I choose to use headphones for privacy or to avoid disturbing someone else most of the time. Headphones with 5.1/7.1 capabilities as far as I know are a somewhat recent development and need to install software or drivers or something for that surround functionality. I don't like that, and, besides, they will probably break constantly on Windows 10 Insider Preview.

4- Game engines emulate sound position, some do it fine and others not as good, but they do it. In a way, that makes surround somewhat pointless on headphones.


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## Tomgang (Oct 31, 2018)

Logitech Z-5500 is what takes care of all my sound from pc to tv. Games, music, movies. In short every thing. And it has been like that since day one i got it back in 2008. Gonna be a sad day, when it finally crap it pants an goes to hardware heaven. Un til then i will keep use it til it dies.


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## AsRock (Oct 31, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Cant stand headphones



Same here, i have had 0 issue's over many years just using the pass though of the HDMI though a 5.1 \ 7.2

got sick off buying sound cards to  get endless problem's due to compatibility or bugs or what ever. Thanks for Creative for that as since i have had not a single issue and sounds much better than your typical  5.1 + computer mockup.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 31, 2018)

AC'97 and then HDA (Intel High Definition Audio) killed the sound card industry.  Before AC'97, sound was a proprietary mess like video cards were.  AC'97 unified the standards which lead to the surge of Realtek popularity.  The trend continued with HDA.  The environmental sound processing that was an argument for dedicated cards in the 1990s can now be done over USB 2.0 in stand-alone hardware.  Even if sound tracing becomes popular, dedicated hardware for it will not go beyond niche because the value/benefit isn't there.  HDA is adequate for 99% of use cases.  The remaining 1% are best served via SPDIF or HDMI into a receiver.



AsRock said:


> got sick off buying sound cards to  get endless problem's due to compatibility or bugs or what ever. Thanks for Creative for that as since i have had not a single issue and sounds much better than your typical  5.1 + computer mockup.


Creative is it's own worst enemy.  It should have open sourced all iterations of EAX to promote the sales of their cards.  Instead, they sat on their licenses so hardly any games implemented it.  Now the only reason to buy a card is for environmental effects the Windows audio stack can do in software.


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 31, 2018)

AsRock said:


> Same here, i have had 0 issue's over many years just using the pass though of the HDMI though a 5.1 \ 7.2
> 
> got sick off buying sound cards to  get endless problem's due to compatibility or bugs or what ever. Thanks for Creative for that as since i have had not a single issue and sounds much better than your typical  5.1 + computer mockup.



Do you use the HDMi from your soundcard to your AV Receiver?


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## Frick (Oct 31, 2018)

I had a Cambridge Soundworks 4.1 system ages ago and it was nive for the games that supported it (Thieeefff). In later years music (and space/general layout of my home) has become more important so 2.0/2.1 it is.


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## xkm1948 (Oct 31, 2018)

Surrond sound setup for VR application is pretty dope TBH


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 31, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Surrond sound setup for VR application is pretty dope TBH




Not everyone can afford a VR setup though


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## xkm1948 (Oct 31, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Not everyone can afford a VR setup though



Windows mixed reality HMD is dirt cheap these days around $200


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 31, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Windows mixed reality HMD is dirt cheap these days around $200



thats still $200 and then the cost of a 5.1/7.1 surround sound system if they havent got one. so another $300-500??


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## Bitgod (Oct 31, 2018)

I use headphones plugged into my old SB X-Fi Titanium HD and use CMSS-3D.  I'm just old enough that a sound card was always the way to go.  If I get around to a new system build someday, I'll probably just put the card in the system because I'm used to the SW.  I had some 5.1 headphones years back, they worked ok, but overall sound quality just isn't as good as my Senn's.


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## AsRock (Oct 31, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Do you use the HDMi from your soundcard to your AV Receiver?



From the video card, ATI\AMD have had the option for a hell long time now.

The sound card on my motherboard is disabled.

Video card to AV to TV, althouugh i have the sound coming from the AV to speakers and not the TV.


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 31, 2018)

AsRock said:


> From the video card, ATI\AMD have had the option for a hell long time now.
> 
> The sound card on my motherboard is disabled.
> 
> Video card to AV to TV, althouugh i have the sound coming from the AV to speakers and not the TV.



Same, Nvidia have always had audio passthrough on HDMi. Im on ebay looking for a 5.1 AV receiver It seems like a better idea rather than going for the 2.1 amp/dac that i was originally looking for although it will probably cost more.

one of the reasons I want to get rid of my soundcard is because it picks up all sorts of interference from my 1080Ti. the second reason being because I actually have good speakers so it might be more appropriate to have the right hardware to drive them


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 1, 2018)

windwhirl said:


> Sound cards are probably never again going to be as popular as they were in the '90s, except for audiophiles and professional use-cases. On-board audio has been deemed good enough for most people, although more than once we have seen motherboards that are not that good (the X470 Taichi Ultimate is a recent example of relatively bad performance, considering its price range).
> 
> On the matter of what I use to listen to sound, I go with a pair of Logitech headphones (G430) and 2.1 Logitech speakers. I never really bothered much about surround sound, because:
> 
> ...



Still got a zxr here and a X230 set, x230 from 2009, zxr from 2014, flawless.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 1, 2018)

Surroundsound in gaming has been more of an annoyance imo/ime ,than a positive function.  It doesn't offer any benefit over traditional 2.1, except for possibly a select few titles that I've played.


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## GoldenX (Nov 1, 2018)

I use Razer's virtual 7.1 on my HyperX Cloud Stinger on War Thunder for a great advantage, and nowhere else. Pure 2.0 for the rest.
If needed, I can power on my old amp and two 1 meter tall 50w speakers.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 1, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> Surroundsound in gaming has been more of an annoyance imo/ime ,than a positive function.  It doesn't offer any benefit over traditional 2.1, except for possibly a select few titles that I've played.



Directional audio hasn't been that good for a long time. Its just like in BF3 or 4 when I turn up the sound mode to wartapes when in surround sound on, its just a load of background ambient a noises to make it sound more immersive but in reality it's really lame and that's one of the reasons I've slowly been falling out with 5.1 when it comes to gaming. Directional audio isn't as great as it once was.


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## skoolsella (Nov 1, 2018)

Ok, surround sound is not dead and it is certainly less of a gimmick than 4k and hdr (well 4k is alright if you can afford a 75 inch panel, but i digress) I will give just one game example, COD Zombies, with a good audio system (and a Logitech or Creative brand system is NOT good) and multiple channels can really help isolate where zombies are or where they are coming from.  AMD's True Audio Next not only helps reduce CPU cycles wasted on audio processing but the DSP processes ray traced reflections in 3D space of occlusion, diffraction, reflection diffusion and absorption of walls furniture objects etc.  In case you don't understand, I just described ray tracing, but for audio (or air waves) rather than light rays (or electromagnetic radiation) and this incredible complex algorithm is inside your AMD graphics card, not a sound card, not a receiver like ATMOS is.  The next problem is that we play games in a 3D space, which is presented back to us in a 2D image but we still have axis x,y & z.  But with even multi channel systems, we don't have a z axis, that is, we lack audio height perception.  I can hear how far away form the speaker the zombie is, and I can tell if the zombie is to my left or right, or even behind me, but I can tell if it is above or below me.  DTS:X and other codecs rendering objects in 3D space are very cool, and with height channels a new realm of audio realism can be realised.  
Ill finish up by saying that my personal audio system is a 2 channel professional studio grade power amp (Yamaha PC2002M) and an Asus Essence One external USB DAC that I have modified, with balanced interconnects, and I have Polk Audio RTi-A7s.  That is because I listen to music more than I game, and music is recorded in 2 channel.  If I wanted to game in multi channel I also own RTi-A3's and FXi-A6's so I could have a very decent 7.1 channel system with all of speakers having the exact same drivers, which is very important, but I personally believe that what is even better or most important with multi channel speaker choice is that they are all the exact same speaker, including the cabinet.  Even though the A7s, A3's and A6's I own all have the exact same tweeter and 6.5" mid range, the cabinets are not the same and the speakers all sound different.  Ideally you would want a speaker than can do 20hz to 24khz as flat as possible, and buy as many copies of that exact speaker as you can afford.  At the end of the day it is up to the game developers to implement the greatest audio technologies available, which there are many, but their sound can only be presented as well as the weakest link in the gamers audio chain



jmcslob said:


> I use a set of Dayton Audio T-652 Air towers on my PC... They don't sound great or bad at all but sound a lot better with a Sound Blaster card than with the mobo's 1220 something integrated.
> I also use a pair of SoundPetes headphones for night...
> 
> I hate gaming with 5.1 unless I'm the only one home.
> ...



How good is FEAR? lol I have an R9 390x OC to 1100mhz and I got 41-min and 51-avg fps on the benchmark just then.  People should ditch the "but can it run crysis" meme and use FEAR which is a full 2 years older.


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## Athlonite (Nov 1, 2018)

I've used my SB X-Fi Titanium Fatality as my sound card for a few years now it all goes into an Pioneer VSX-D457 AV Amp (unfortunately it's Analogue in) and out to 5 Technics speakers and a Sansui powered Sub and I've tried headphones I just can't stand them on my ears for long (wingnut ears) but I have it set to my preference and I think it sounds really good for it's age


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## GoldenX (Nov 1, 2018)

I had to gave my PCI Sound Blaster Live! 24-bits after upgrading to my current rig... Maybe someday I will get a PCI-E one.
Did the "1337 Xtreme" mod of putting a heatsink on top of the Realtek, just in case.


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## sepheronx (Nov 1, 2018)

I have an HT Omega Striker PCI sound card that is in my Dell T3500.  I have a RCA 5.1 Surround sound system that I would connect through optic line to PC.  Sounds absolutely amazing.  Stopped using it cause the amp in the 1 speaker is busted and I cant find a replacement.

Gonna get a new setup though.


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## sam_86314 (Nov 1, 2018)

I have a Yamaha HTR-5830 connected to my PC with an optical cable, and it's powering a pair of Bose 201 Series V bookshelf speakers I recently found at a yard sale. They sound great. The amp supports 5.1 surround, but I have it as a 2.0 setup for the time being.

Before this, I had a pair of Bose MediaMate speakers (another yard sale find from a while ago) and an Altec Lansing subwoofer.


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## Durvelle27 (Nov 1, 2018)

I use a 5.1 setup as well and have been for years now

Don’t think I’d ever go back to stereo


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## Osirus (Nov 2, 2018)

I have a 5.1 setup both for my desktop and in my living room that I use with Steam streaming.


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## dirtyferret (Nov 2, 2018)

I have a very nice Yamaha receiver & Mirage OMD 5.1 speaker set up, prior to mirage going all out on those nano speakers and being purchased by klipsch.  Then I got married and had kids, now my receiver & mirage speakers all sit in boxes in my basement.  I use a sound bar that I bolted to the TV stand (so the kids would stop pulling on it) as the speaker.  I must say the sound bar "sounds" OK but its ease of use gets my recommendation over a 5.1 speaker set up.  

For gaming I have a klipsch 2.1 speakers.  Never understood the point of setting up speakers behind you for a gaming PC and 5.1 headphones are not a true 5.1 set up.  Virtual 5.1 is just that, virtual since you only have two drivers (one in each headphone ear peace).


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## mmxx (Nov 7, 2018)

skoolsella said:


> How good is FEAR? lol I have an R9 390x OC to 1100mhz and I got 41-min and 51-avg fps on the benchmark just then.  People should ditch the "but can it run crysis" meme and use FEAR which is a full 2 years older.


 try this fix.


I still play fear whit EAX 4.0 audio, the effect of reveb is amazing better than the new games can be enabled on any sound card whit DSOAL.

headphone only


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## John Naylor (Nov 7, 2018)

We have 4 sets of Logitech Z5500s .... about once a year Dell would have then on special (1 per customer) for under $300 and id scopp 1 or 2 (one to work, one to home) up each time.  As for sound cards, I have them up... o geez maybe 20 years ago.   Attenedan AMA with JJ from Asus once and he equivocated their branded vrsion of ALC 1150 with their $75 - $90 Xonar sound cards.  For gaming, it's more than served for our needs.  I'm not a headphones fan , but after owning Sennheisers, we're all using Logitech G930s or 933s (yeah besides the fact that I have to have LEDs on my head to make me look like an asshat ... at least you can term them off).  I will use them when blasting the speakers is not an option.


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## Osirus (Nov 7, 2018)

I have a Logitech G933 but I use it for voice communication only. All in-game sounds go through 5.1 surround speakers using onboard Realtek audio.


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## Kissamies (Nov 17, 2018)

I have an old Creative 5.1 set, but I don't have a slightest idea where/how to put the rear speakers. So I'm kicking with Superlux HD681B, for a long time I'm using a motherboard which has PCI slots, so I can use Audigy 2 ZS


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## INSTG8R (Nov 17, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> I have an old Creative 5.1 set, but I don't have a slightest idea where/how to put the rear speakers. So I'm kicking with Superlux HD681B, for a long time I'm using a motherboard which has PCI slots, so I can use Audigy 2 ZS


That’s the real rub with 5.1 I have mine on stands...


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## Kissamies (Nov 17, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> That’s the real rub with 5.1 I have mine on stands...


I could use 2 PC cases and boxes to raise them up for the fine location.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 17, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> I could use 2 PC cases and boxes to raise them up for the fine location.


Yeah when I was using my Creatives I have a corner desk so I used 2 L brackets you use for shelves on each corner it worked perfectly., The Logitech’s only have standard mounts so I had to use stands.


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## Mussels (Nov 17, 2018)

Got time to answer this one in detail at last, and its basically DRM thats destroyed the 5.1 scene for PC use

Consider the actual setup options:

1. Analog 5.1/7.1 speakers that only work on PC - outside of brands like logitech or low quality speakers, this is all you can really use for 'it just works'

2. Toslink/SPDIF 5.1 speakers - Far more common from home theater surround sound systems, but without extremely rare real time encoding soundcards, you're stuck at stereo

3. HDMI audio - common, affordable, decent quality... but you're stuck at 1080p 60hz for most people, or 4k 60 if you're rich (a 4k HDR capable receiver costs more than my 4K UHDTV did), or you can go 'multi monitor' just for speakers and break things (overwatch and many other games would glitch out for me and only work at 1080p if my receiver was enabled when starting the game)

So basically, unless you use fake 5.1 (headphones with fake upmixing is a common example) or a super generic industry standard (1080p 60hz) you're locked out. The moment you go 1440p 144hz for example, you've got limited choices before things start to break.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 25, 2018)

Mussels said:


> Got time to answer this one in detail at last, and its basically DRM thats destroyed the 5.1 scene for PC use
> 
> Consider the actual setup options:
> 
> ...



Yeah. Ive been watching ebay like a hawk to try and nab some pre-owned AV receiver goodness but i find that the bidding goes past my budget especially since I also have to factor in the cost of a new sub as well. 

I toyed about with the idea and it seems that its not going to be something thats going to happen any time soon. at the moment Amazon has 20% off on their warehouse and i have now swung back to the idea of considering an AE-5 open box for $100(USD/$154AUD)


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## Vayra86 (Nov 25, 2018)

Sound cards are history. I think the trend is rapidly moving towards having more features on the M/B itself and sound is one that has already matured on it.

Surround, I don't know. Consider headphones, and how people 'want one with virtual surround' for gaming. The demand for positional audio feedback is definitely there. But people using shitty speakers is a thing that has always existed. Audio is always an afterthought and many people put far too little value in it, but its a huge factor of immersion. For that reason no, I think surround is definitely not gone.

My own setup is a 5.1 system with active sub and passive speakers on a Harman/Kardon receiver, and I can just switch to 2.1 whenever I want to. For some uses it is preferable. For gaming, surround wins the day.


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## Bansaku (Nov 25, 2018)

There is a reason 2.1 systems and headphones are becoming king. With today's audio engineering in games, there really is no need for a dedicated multi-channel audio set-up. All you need is a GOOD set of speakers and/or headphones and you are set. I can't stress GOOD enough because that's the problem. Gamers, as savvy as they(/we) are, still can't recognize good audio when presented to them, mostly thanks to marketing tactics. Why do you think Astro and Razor sell so damn many cans? They play on gamer's ignorance with cheap Chinese re-brands. Top that off with the misconception that "audiophile" headphones are boring, analytical, and expensive and it's not too difficult to see where the problem lies.

Get yourself a pair of Sennheiser HD598 and a GOOD USB DAC (Dragonfly, Audioengine, Schiit) and you are set. Heck, splurge on a pair of Sennheiser's gaming cans and use your mobo's more than adequate on-board sound and you are set. Believe you me, as a PC gamer for the past 38 out of my 40 years alive, I have been there done that with computer audio. It's like that episode of South Park where the catch phrase was "Simpson's did it!", ya, that's me and PC audio. As of writing this, nothing compares to my iFi stack paired with either the HD600 or HE-560; I can 3D pin-point your arse in perfect clarity and resolution. 

But that's just my 2 cents. Get what you are both comfortable with and can afford and worry about what's important; having fun! It's all about the pew-pew bang-bang!


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 25, 2018)

I already have a pair of Philips Fidelio X1's but im not much of a headphone gamer. Always prefered surround sound.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 25, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Sound cards are history. I think the trend is rapidly moving towards having more features on the M/B itself and sound is one that has already matured on it.
> 
> Surround, I don't know. Consider headphones, and how people 'want one with virtual surround' for gaming. The demand for positional audio feedback is definitely there. But people using shitty speakers is a thing that has always existed. Audio is always an afterthought and many people put far too little value in it, but its a huge factor of immersion. For that reason no, I think surround is definitely not gone.
> 
> My own setup is a 5.1 system with active sub and passive speakers on a Harman/Kardon receiver, and I can just switch to 2.1 whenever I want to. For some uses it is preferable. For gaming, surround wins the day.


And I would never go without either. Same in my living room full proper 5.1 setup there too My PS4 is mainly a BD player and media server and I have the sound to go with it. I will never settle for onboard sound ever! I would really like an AE-5 but My SB ZX sounds great and does what I need already as far as quality I can't justify any advantages of the AE-5 for my usage.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 25, 2018)

OK OK OK!!!!! I just nabbed myself a Yamaha RX-V573 for $128USD/$177AUD.

description said it was well looked after and that seems to match up with pictures of the item. comes with all original accessories. Now all i have to do is source me a subwoofer


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## Aquinus (Nov 26, 2018)

Other (both)? I have a 5.1 setup to the integrated sound card but, I have good headphones with a DAC/Amp as well. I switch between the headphones and the speakers depending on what I want. I think surround has value, but good headphones are going to achieve the same effect. You can't share the experience with headphones though.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 26, 2018)

This topic needs to be given a new title: The State of Surround sound gaming - and its revival: late 2018.


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## phill (Nov 26, 2018)

I've always had speakers I've never really enjoyed having headphones although I can understand the use for them 

I have my Z-5500's for my PC and a Linn/Yamaha setup for my home cinema..  I'd never go back to TV or stereo sound, it's just not even close to the same.  The games on the consoles I play that feed through the surround sound are amazing with the noises coming from behind me (racing games etc ) it's just worth every penny..

Bit like watching films through it, watching Saving Private Ryan in the first 10 minutes is what you have a surround sound kit for


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 26, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> This topic needs to be given a new title: The State of Surround sound gaming - and its revival: late 2018.



How so? I don't see the industry working on trying to revamp or reintroduce hardware acceleration. Nor are they making any sort of effort to go above and beyond what is required.

Give  me at least 3 examples with games that have a serious focus on their audio above the current status quo when it comes to audio . Battlefield or call of duty titles don't count


::EDIT::

Though i admit its a bit of an uphill struggle as Creative probably doesnt want to work with Microsoft to get something that works. and openAL has been pretty much dead in the water for a long time. There really hasnt been a successor to technologies like EAX. Asus tried but their implementation was based on emulation (as they didnt want to pay for the licensing fee creative as asking for) and never really worked properly in my experience.

So where is this '_revival_' you were speaking of when all the players involved have done absolutely nothing and continue to leave gaming audio in a comatose state albeit a 'good' comatose state. sound quality has generally improved though. quite often using sound clips/bites/recordings from their real life counterparts they are modeled after. but audio engines have gone nowhere, hence the decline of soundcards and rise in external DACs and amps.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 26, 2018)

I still. don’t understand what your issue is? I’ve been playing exclusively in 5.1 for a decade at least and I can’t count on one hand the games I’ve played that don’t have 5.1 sound. What is it you seem to think a wrong or missing here.  Elite Dangerous has some of the best 5.1 sound I’ve ever heard and the new  Forza Horizons 4 is also just fantastic. I’m just really not seeing your problem here or your point.


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## neatfeatguy (Nov 26, 2018)

On my computer, I just utilize the onboard audio with 5.1 speaker setup of some sort....not at home so I don't know the specific brand/model (probably some Logitech speakers). I get good use from them, they work well enough for my gaming needs. If I'm not alone at home (which rarely happens) then I just stick to my G35 headphones. They work good enough for me and the surround is nice to help detect which direction in game that things are coming from.

As for my TV setup I used to have a pretty decent setup on everything - Sony receiver (old, she's been with me for 18+ years now), two Bose tower speakers my step-dad gave me and a 12" Sony subwoofer and the sound was amazing. 

Here's a pic of the Bose speakers (these aren't mine, just a pic online):






Sadly, my receiver is so old these new TVs have no way to connect to them with getting a digital to analog converter....also, the wife doesn't like the look of the Bose speakers and likes having them out of the living room. She wins this round


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 26, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> I still. don’t understand what your issue is? I’ve been playing exclusively in 5.1 for a decade at least and I can’t count on one hand the games I’ve played that don’t have 5.1 sound. What is it you seem to think a wrong or missing here.  Elite Dangerous has some of the best 5.1 sound I’ve ever heard and the new  Forza Horizons 4 is also just fantastic. I’m just really not seeing your problem here or your point.




No problem at all. I'm just saying that surround sound gaming seems to have fallen out of popularity with the death of hardware accelerated audio.

The only people who game in 5.1 seem to be those who possibly already had a 5.1 setup in the first place otherwise would probably resort to 2.1 or headphones. 5.1 seems to be very niche unless youre rich enough to have a home theater setup to go along with your gaming console.


And my point has been proven by my poll. Most people use 2.1/2.0 with speakers  followed by headphones then 5.1/7.1 surround

While games still support surround sound there just doesn't seem to be any technology that has filled the gap of EAX to really make things immersive.

At the same time i understand that this is my own opinion and that some people think that EAX was always a bit of a gimmick anyway.

Surround sound support in games won't be dying anytime soon


It just seems that surround sound gamers seem to be a bit of a dying breed.


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## WhiteNoise (Nov 26, 2018)

I use both headphones and speakers.

When gaming I use headphones I use a 7.1 gaming headset.

When I use speakers or my 2 channel headphones: it is set up in the following way:

Onboard audio out to dedicated DAC, then preamp then 2 channel amplifier. (I actually have 3 tube amps that can be used via the preamp.)
2x monitor speakers and 1x 15" sub or powering one of my stereo headphones.


As for 5.1 or greater surround sound for gaming...at my desk it is a non issue. 2 channel is always my preferred way to play and even though my headset does 7.1, it is simulated and I usually have it disabled. I don't care about surround sound for gaming.

I do care about surround sound for movies though and my home theater room is setup in a 7.2 configuration. When I game on the projector I do like surround then which the main consoles do well anyway.


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## infrared (Nov 26, 2018)

I mostly play with headphones these days, the last time I tried playing with 5.1 was when I had hacked realtek drivers installed on my 6700k system, had no issues in mirrors edge with 5.1 through the optical toslink to my yamaha reciever. 
It's frustrating that the hardware has the capability to do dolby dts through optical.. but for licensing reasons (I suspect) it's disabled in the drivers.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 27, 2018)

infrared said:


> I mostly play with headphones these days, the last time I tried playing with 5.1 was when I had hacked realtek drivers installed on my 6700k system, had no issues in mirrors edge with 5.1 through the optical toslink to my yamaha reciever.
> It's frustrating that the hardware has the capability to do dolby dts through optical.. but for licensing reasons (I suspect) it's disabled in the drivers.



Should of tried it through HDMi instead.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 27, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> No problem at all. I'm just saying that surround sound gaming seems to have fallen out of popularity with the death of hardware accelerated audio.
> 
> The only people who game in 5.1 seem to be those who possibly already had a 5.1 setup in the first place otherwise would probably resort to 2.1 or headphones. 5.1 seems to be very niche unless youre rich enough to have a home theater setup to go along with your gaming console.
> 
> ...


So basically we can agree there’s nothing wrong with 5.1 support just the amount of users taking advantage of it is very small and I understand that I have to use stands for my rears and that’s inconvenient but a sacrifice I’m willing to make that many others wouldn’t.
Thankfully consoles keep it “propped up” so I don’t lose out.


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## bug (Nov 27, 2018)

Surround sound is alive and well. It just moved form EAX to HDMI or TOSLINK, that's all.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 27, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> So basically we can agree there’s nothing wrong with 5.1 support just the amount of users taking advantage of it is very small and I understand that I have to use stands for my rears and that’s inconvenient but a sacrifice I’m willing to make that many others wouldn’t.
> Thankfully consoles keep it “propped up” so I don’t lose out.



Sort of.... its the lack of innovation on the surround sound front.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 27, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Sort of.... its the lack of innovation on the surround sound front.


But really what’s to innovate? I mean consoles get Dolby and all that but I mean 5.1 is 5.1 on PC and just “works” no needed for licensed tech. I mean I don’t want any kinda fake processing junk like most headsets use for basically fake surround.


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## bug (Nov 27, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Sort of.... its the lack of innovation on the surround sound front.


It's hard to innovate in this area. Sound is extremely subjective so whatever you do, you'll please some of the audience while angering some. Plus, hearing is at its best till 25 or so. And then it goes south. So you can hear most things precisely when you can't really afford high end equipment.

In conclusion, while pleasing audiophiles makes some sense, gamers aren't that attractive as a target audience.


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## infrared (Nov 27, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Should of tried it through HDMi instead.


What, why? It worked flawlessly through toslink.. I know it works through hdmi as well, but my reciever doesn't have hdmi.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 27, 2018)

infrared said:


> What, why? It worked flawlessly through toslink.. I know it works through hdmi as well, but my reciever doesn't have hdmi.


Yeah Toslink is the absolute limitation to get 5.1 but you don’t need any more than that either. I’m still using 3.5mm for my Z906s I tried optical but fought with it as my ZX only wanted to give me stereo.


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## hat (Nov 27, 2018)

High quality PC audio is fucked, thanks to what Microsoft did with Vista onward. As I understand it, there's really no hardware accelerated sound anymore, as everything goes through Microsoft's audio stack now. There's no more handing off the audio processing to your sound card. No more gaining 1fps from having a sound card. It's literally just giving you better sound quality because of better DACs if you're using the analog outputs, and shitty post processing effects nobody really uses.

Up to 5.1 is possible through optical, but it only does up to Stereo when uncompressed. You need something like DTS to get 5.1 to work.

HDMI is fucked thanks to HDCP. It has tons of bandwidth for 7.1 and above uncompressed, but HDMI demands video and audio signals be sent together. You can't just HDMI out to a receiver for super cool sound like you could with analog or optical. You need a receiver that can handle whatever resolution you want your monitor to be at, and if it's anything above 1080p60, good luck...

So, thanks to... DRM, licensing and whatever Microsoft was smoking when they made that change since Vista, PC audio took a pretty big hit.


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## Slizzo (Nov 27, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Sound cards, no. There's really nothing to justify their cost.
> Surround sound gaming works as a function of most game engines.  Virtually all have positional audio systems.  I'm sort of excited for sound tracing technology that could be coming over the next few years.
> 
> Even with Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 speaker system, I'm almost always gaming with my Sennheiser HD 598 headphones.  Less power, less heat, less annoying other people in the house, more clarity because less air to pass through.
> ...



Late reply, but yeah until earlier this year I had been using my set of Klipsh Promedia Ultra 5.1s. The Corsair headset is actually so much better.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 30, 2018)

my god... this sounds so much better. I had to resort to putting my SB-Z back in because my built in audio wouldnt work. I got SB-Z up with dolby digital live going and holy shit does it sound so much better than my Z5500s. Like 'true' surround sound for movies! and an the audio levels are quite accurate and uniform between speakers. I think the Z5500s were struggling with the extra cable length that i had for the rear speakers.


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## bug (Nov 30, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> my god... this sounds so much better. I had to resort to putting my SB-Z back in because my built in audio wouldnt work. I got SB-Z up with dolby digital live going and holy shit does it sound so much better than my Z5500s. Like 'true' surround sound for movies! and an the audio levels are quite accurate and uniform between speakers. I think the Z5500s were struggling with the extra cable length that i had for the rear speakers.


So your new sound card sounds better than your speakers? What exactly are you trying to say?


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 30, 2018)

bug said:


> So your new sound card sounds better than your speakers? What exactly are you trying to say?



Sound card isn't new, speakers ain't new either but my yamaha RX-573 is new alongside a new 10" sub

Is what I'm trying to say.


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## bug (Nov 30, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Sound card isn't new, speakers ain't new either but my yamaha RX-573 is new alongside a new 10" sub
> 
> Is what I'm trying to say.


Ok, now I'm lost. So your old setup was onboard sound->Z5500. Your new setup is SB-Z->RX-573->???

Also, I own the RX-V675 myself, but it's not servicing my PC, it's servicing my main audio setup. I really like how YPAO helps you set up


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 30, 2018)

bug said:


> Ok, now I'm lost. So your old setup was onboard sound->Z5500. Your new setup is SB-Z->RX-573->???
> 
> Also, I own the RX-V675 myself, but it's not servicing my PC, it's servicing my main audio setup. I really like how YPAO helps you set up



Nope. 

Sbz>z5500 +bookshelf speakers.

Couldn't get built in audio to output 5.1 or DDL last night so put my sbz back in. I was hoping to be done with my sbz for good. One less card installed inside my pc


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## bug (Nov 30, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Nope.
> 
> Sbz>z5500 +bookshelf speakers.
> 
> Couldn't get built in audio to output 5.1 or DDL last night so put my sbz back in. I was hoping to be done with my sbz for good. One less card installed inside my pc


Ok, I get it now. And I see why your sound is now better.
Not sure why you couldn't output 5.1, but most on-board sound cards don't do DDL.
My solution to PC sound was to use a digital out (so it will be immune to noise in the case) and use a DVD player (or whatever) to do the DAC. Probably not everybody's cup of tea, but it works for me


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## micropage7 (Nov 30, 2018)

Now i'm using auzentech forte and i found the sound much better than asus onboard soundcard


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 30, 2018)

bug said:


> Ok, I get it now. And I see why your sound is now better.
> Not sure why you couldn't output 5.1, but most on-board sound cards don't do DDL.
> My solution to PC sound was to use a digital out (so it will be immune to noise in the case) and use a DVD player (or whatever) to do the DAC. Probably not everybody's cup of tea, but it works for me



I think part of the problem was me messing around with modded drivers. but nvm. whats done is done now.


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