# What will you do after January 14, 2020?



## P4-630 (Mar 14, 2019)

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsforbusiness/end-of-windows-7-support 

I'm using windows 10 myself but I was wondering what will you do as windows 7 user after January 14, 2020?....


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## Nxodus (Mar 14, 2019)

Windows XP of course


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## P4-630 (Mar 14, 2019)

I mean there are other options, like Linux for example if you hate windows 10 that much.


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## Tomgang (Mar 14, 2019)

I run windows 10 as well. For those that runs windows 7, will just have to bite it in them and buy a win 10 licence or keep using windows 7 and live with the sicurity risk that will be when update support ends.

Or they can try out linux or something like it or bay a mac/apple product.


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## R-T-B (Mar 14, 2019)

Read a bunch of idiotic threads moping about the termination of support against my will.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 14, 2019)

Keep using W7


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## natr0n (Mar 14, 2019)

They chose my Birthday to end an era.


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## R-T-B (Mar 14, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Keep using W7



Serious advice:  If you really must do this, take backups.

The next cryptolocker-esque worm that comes around will probably eat 7 for breakfast and there won't be a patch, more likely than not.  If you have a backup what's there to worry about though?


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## 64K (Mar 14, 2019)

I've got Win 10 on my gaming rig and laptop but I have Win 7 on my backup gaming rig. I will keep Win 7 on there and when I need to use the rig I will.


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## silentbogo (Mar 14, 2019)

P4-630 said:


> I'm using windows 10 myself but I was wondering what will you do as windows 7 user after January 14, 2020?....


It ain't the end of the world. What it means there are gonna be no updates and no support. It's not like all of a sudden your PC will blow up or OS will stop booting. It's not Vista MSDN beta.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 14, 2019)

Turned off windows Uprape when they started to push win 10. on People.
don't have any Security issues ect.
Intend to carry on as i am (win7)
For people less knowledgeable than myself guess they will have to migrate to something else 
Oh and you can still wrangle the free upgrade to 10 if you must


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## Bones (Mar 14, 2019)

Already been running Linux to keep Spy 10 off the machine and using Win 7 ATM just because.
Not worried because I'm set either way.

You won't find anything Alexia related in my home either - Funny how over the years Alexia was well known to be spyware but now it's one of the "In" things to have.

Just proves with good PR and marketing you can sell anything.


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## R-T-B (Mar 14, 2019)

Linux is always a goto of mine.  But Windows is just a better performer for gaming.  Anything else, linux can do better really.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 14, 2019)

Absolutely nothing.  Not a single Windows 7 install in my care.  Most machines were updated from Windows 7 to Windows 10 years ago.


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## Mats (Mar 14, 2019)

Simplix is still a thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if the paid updates will end up there in the future until the very end in 2023.

https://forums.mydigitallife.net/th...egrate-hotfixes-into-win7-distribution.45005/


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## Space Lynx (Mar 14, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Keep using W7




I'll still be using Win 7 as well, with a very strong firewall that I control everything in, what comes in what goes out all has to get approved by me first. This is what I do now, and sometimes I go 6 months with no security updates as it is, who needs them? Not I.


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## Vario (Mar 14, 2019)

8.1 or LTSB.  Not too worried about it.


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## timta2 (Mar 15, 2019)

I will keep using Windows 7 for as long as I can, just like I've been using Windows XP on my older gaming PC, that's been working brilliantly. I was hoping to keep using WMC in Windows 10, but Microsoft keeps intentionally ruining it at every update. What a dirtbag company.


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## MrGenius (Mar 15, 2019)

SOS here. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Literally in this case. I still intend to run all the OSes I have installed on all of my machines 'till the end of time. Only change/upgrade 'em if I really need to, and/or if I even can(can't on 1 of 'em, s478 P4 barely runs 7 32-bit as it is).


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## John Naylor (Mar 15, 2019)

Sleep late.

In have always considering putting a new OS on old hardware the ultimate exercise in foolishness. I watched carefully when the "big one" came around and Infoworld reported that American business spend between $2500 and $4500 per box moving their users to the new OS including down time, training, hardware upgrades IT staff time, etc. because MS told us it would be so much faster.   My expectations was that it wasn't going to change things all that much but for whatever reasons it seemed no one was doing any comparisons ... I gues becayuse the mindset was , well it's 32 bit of course it's faster.

Then came PC magazine annual round up issue with "over 100 PCs tested".  I usually poured over this looking for trends ... one was systems w/ SCSI Hard Drives were always faster.  The thing that puzzled me however, was:

a)  There where a bit over 100 PCs tested about 65 % Win95 / 35% W4WGs
b)  They were not grouped in any way as by CPU, by video, by HD etc... so to figure out why No. 22 as faster than number 31, you had to do a lot of page flipping so see what was in what.
c)  In previous years, the article ran from start to finish on consecutive pages, with occasional interruptions by companies doing 3 - 6 page ads.
d)  However ... the Win95 systems were separate by over 100 pages from the W4WGs systems which was a WTH moment.
e)  I did notice that many companies ... Dell, Gateway, Comtrade, yada yada yada .... submitted several identical boxes say over 3 price tiers, where the only difference was the OS  .. Why would they do that ?
f)  It soon became apparent ... i copied the data into a spreadsheet (Yeay Lotus 1-2-3) and the result was shocking .... the W4WGs boxes averaged 40% faster than the Win95 boxes.

I could only conclude this was the reason for the 100 pages of separation ... the magazines were yanking in mega dollars for all the hardware ads, new software ads, and no one wanted to risk being the dude who let the cat out the bag that Win95 was a dud.  

Back in the day, when you bought a new lappie for example, the manufacturers who gave you the option not to have OS reinstalled, gave you a CD which, when inserted booted up a Windows install menu which gave multiple choices ... a) Install Win95 b) Install 4WGs .  We pretty much stayed with W4WGs for the grown ups.  I fondly remeber those days when boot menu had 6 options w/ different config.sys and autoexec.bat files .... a) W4WGs for office suites and online stuff (Compuserve), b) DOS for AutoCAD and c)  Win95 for the kids.  The other 3 were basically tweaked with helix memory utility which was kinda required to get past the DOS memory limit and run AutoCAD w/ any degree of production.

Still have not seen an instance where putting new OS on hardware was a win.  Win 10 was anticipated to do so, especiually in gaming but test results were pretty split.   Early "leaked" testing showed significant gains which kinda disappeared over time.  But here we are 12 years later and DX11 is far from "gone".  Back in November my son and I toasted to the fact that Win 7 was now the No. 2 OS.

Lastly, I'm kinda stuck with it.  I have a $15,000 36" wide format color plotter .  I never had Vista but was able to use a hack to make the Vista driver work on Windows 7.  So will have to keep a working box around if i wanna keep using my plotter.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

P4-630 said:


> I'm using windows 10 myself but I was wondering what will you do as windows 7 user after January 14, 2020?....


I have a system that has no internet connection. So for that system, there's not motivation at all to do anything. The system I'm currently typing out the message on has a kernel level firewall(not the builtin Windows FW), well configured, which sits behind hardware firewall. It also runs a number of security based browser plugins, but most importantly I abide by a good computing ethic which includes not visiting "IShouldntBeHere.com" types of web sites.


R-T-B said:


> Linux is always a goto of mine. But Windows is just a better performer for gaming. Anything else, linux can do better really.


We agree here. Linux Mint is an excellent desktop OS.


MrGenius said:


> (can't on 1 of 'em, s478 P4 barely runs 7 32-bit as it is)


I'd put that thing back on XP, unless you have a specific need for 7.


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## Regeneration (Mar 15, 2019)

Microsoft plans to introduce Extended Security Updates program for Windows 7. It will provide updates until 2023 for a price.


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## hat (Mar 15, 2019)

Already on Windows 10. I liked Windows 7, but 10 Pro isn't terrible with delayed updates. I still haven't found the infamous 1809 on any of my machines because I have Windows Update set to delay those updates. As such, while it broke systems everywhere and has been pulled multiple times, I've been sitting pretty on the older, more stable version.

What I still don't like is the fact that when it comes, it'll likely reset a bunch of stuff I've configured to "default" settings. I'd rather be on LTSB.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

hat said:


> I'd rather be on LTSB.


LTSC is the version you should look at. LTSB has been retired in favor of it.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 15, 2019)

I'll be doing what I've been doing for the past few years, running Windows 10 on all my computers.



hat said:


> Already on Windows 10. I liked Windows 7, but 10 Pro isn't terrible with delayed updates. I still haven't found the infamous 1809 on any of my machines because I have Windows Update set to delay those updates. As such, while it broke systems everywhere and has been pulled multiple times, I've been sitting pretty on the older, more stable version.



Even without delayed updates, I had to manually install it on my machines.  I haven't got around to doing it on all of them yet even, so most of them are still running 1803.



hat said:


> What I still don't like is the fact that when it comes, it'll likely reset a bunch of stuff I've configured to "default" settings. I'd rather be on LTSB.



It didn't really reset anything major from what I can tell.  At least nothing that a quick run of Anti-Beacon wasn't able to fix.


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## MrGenius (Mar 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'd put that thing back on XP, unless you have a specific need for 7.


Always XP. I don't own any machines that aren't still running XP in one way or another. Either dual boot with 7, or on a dedicated disk. I'd run XP, 7 and 10 on all of 'em if I could. Why? Because I can...that's why!


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## moproblems99 (Mar 15, 2019)

Tomgang said:


> I run windows 10 as well. For those that runs windows 7, will just have to bite it in them and buy a win 10 licence or keep using windows 7 and live with the sicurity risk that will be when update support ends.
> 
> Or they can try out linux or something like it or bay a mac/apple product.



You won't have to buy it.  You can still activate Win 10 with 7 - 8.1 keys.  If they haven't done anything by now then I doubt they will by 2020.


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## Solaris17 (Mar 15, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> Lotus 1-2-3



please no, iv left that life behind.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

MrGenius said:


> I'd run XP, 7 and 10 on all of 'em if I could.


Actually there is a couple of good platforms that support all three, X58 and X79. A Dell T3500, T5500 or T7500 would work well if you wanted to triple boot. There are of course other systems that can be used.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 15, 2019)




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## hat (Mar 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Actually there is a couple of good platforms that support all three, X58 and X79. A Dell T3500, T5500 or T7500 would work well if you wanted to triple boot. There are of course other systems that can be used.


A bit off topic, but I gotta say I'm eyeballing these used workstations. It appears the T7500 is dual CPU? Dual 6 core Xeons would really kick ass for multithreaded workloads (thinking mainly WCG). And they can be found cheap. 

I'm still not sure I'd ever buy a new prebuilt system, but the _used_ prebuilt market seems fantastic these days.


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## Jetster (Mar 15, 2019)

Already moved on


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## Lightning (Mar 15, 2019)

I haven't used Windows Update since I installed SP1. The world didn't end.
Now try disabling the updater on 10 and see how long _that_ lasts.


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## windwhirl (Mar 15, 2019)

Well, at home I've been using Windows 10 almost since it launched.

At work, I guess I'll have to start making an essay about why we should consider updating from Windows 7 to Windows 10. I'll need it to convince my boss to pay the licenses required. And until then, harden everything as much as possible without making it too bothersome for the end-users.

Oh and the servers too (Windows Server 2008)...

Another pain in the neck...

And I can't consider Linux due to requiring full compatibility with certain government-issued software (running in all our desktops) and our accounting software (running in some desktops and on the servers), which can't be changed either. All requiring Windows.

LTSC sounds great, but I'm not sure it makes sense for a small organization like us (licensing costs, mostly)... so we'll probably choose the SAC-B with upgrades delayed until the extended support ends...


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## E-Bear (Mar 15, 2019)

Keep complaining about my arthrosis.


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## ManGupta (Mar 15, 2019)

hat said:


> A bit off topic, but I gotta say I'm eyeballing these used workstations. It appears the T7500 is dual CPU? Dual 6 core Xeons would really kick ass for multithreaded workloads (thinking mainly WCG). And they can be found cheap.
> 
> I'm still not sure I'd ever buy a new prebuilt system, but the _used_ prebuilt market seems fantastic these days.



If you want more horsepower for your system, you may also consider T7600.

T7600 supports Dual 8C/16T processor + Quad Channel Memory bandwidth Vs T7500 Dual 6C/12T processor + Tripple Channel Memory bandwidth.

However used T7600 may be priced higher giving lesser Price to Performance ratio as compared to T7500/T5500/T3500.
But if you get any good deal, it may be worth going for.

PS- T7600 also supports PCIE 3 & USB 3 Vs T7500 PCDIE 2 & USB 2 (However PCIE USB3 Adapter can enable support for USB3 in T3500/7500/5500)


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## moproblems99 (Mar 15, 2019)

hat said:


> A bit off topic, but I gotta say I'm eyeballing these used workstations. It appears the T7500 is dual CPU? Dual 6 core Xeons would really kick ass for multithreaded workloads (thinking mainly WCG). And they can be found cheap.
> 
> I'm still not sure I'd ever buy a new prebuilt system, but the _used_ prebuilt market seems fantastic these days.



I have a T3500 that can do dual socket as well but you need to add an extension to it.  never did end up using it for what I bought it for.


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## Assimilator (Mar 15, 2019)

FFS why do people in these threads always say "use Linux"? Can I run most games on Linux, no. Can I run Visual Studio on Linux, no. Can I get assf**ked by Linux, probably - but that's not what I use my computer for and I doubt it's what most TPU members do either. So stop pushing an "alternative" that isn't.


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## FireFox (Mar 15, 2019)

Isn't there any rumors about a new Windows ( 11 ) or will they just continue adding features to windows 10?


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## Assimilator (Mar 15, 2019)

Knoxx29 said:


> Isn't there any rumors about a new Windows ( 11 ) or will they just continue adding features to windows 10?



Win10 is likely to be the last Windows. After that everything will transition to the cloud.


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## GoldenX (Mar 15, 2019)

At some time the marketing team will have to come with a new name for Vista 5.X, the name "Windows 10" will get old eventually.


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## Caring1 (Mar 15, 2019)

natr0n said:


> They chose my Birthday to end an era.


You think you have it bad, they turned mine in to International Women's Day, and they didn't give even give me one on my birthday.


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## 27MaD (Mar 15, 2019)

Already switched from Win 7 to the awesome-shitty Win 10 9 months ago , May the best Windows ever die in peace.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 15, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> FFS why do people in these threads always say "use Linux"? Can I run most games on Linux, no. Can I run Visual Studio on Linux, no. Can I get assf**ked by Linux, probably - but that's not what I use my computer for and I doubt it's what most TPU members do either. So stop pushing an "alternative" that isn't.



But... but... Linux! Its better because its linux and we all need to go there, even for gaming. Look at all the Linux support pushed by Steam, the largest PC gaming platform in the business. Look at all the market share its gained over the years. I mean, you just need to be using Linux, life will be so much better if it becomes the biggest OS.

In the meantime, in the real world, people are moving _away _from anything that is complicated and not plug&play


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## sepheronx (Mar 15, 2019)

I have Windows 10 Pro.  It is growing on me now as I use it more.  I wouldn't mind trying linux again though but its been a long time (Fedora Core 4)

Any suggestions?


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## P4-630 (Mar 15, 2019)

Regeneration said:


> Microsoft plans to introduce Extended Security Updates program for Windows 7. It will provide updates until 2023 for a price.



"_Windows 7's free support period ends on January 14, 2020. Microsoft is offering three years of support updates for the operating system on a paid basis with a new program called Extended Security Updates (ESU). Unlike previous after-life support options for Windows, which were offered as part of separately negotiated support contracts, the Windows 7 ESU updates will be available to any volume license customer, regardless of size or sales channel.

Pricing for this support has now leaked to Mary Jo Foley. For organizations already subscribing to Windows Enterprise, the first year of updates will cost an additional $25 per device. This doubles to $50 for the second year and $100 for the third year. Organizations can't skip a year, either; previous years must be paid for to obtain the year two and year three support. For companies sticking with Windows 7 Pro instead of subscribing to Windows Enterprise, the first year will cost $50 per device and will double each subsequent year to $100 and then $200.

There's no minimum purchase for the ESU subscriptions, so companies can buy as few as they need. It's not clear if there will be any volume discounts for larger deployments still stuck with the legacy operating system._"

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...urity-updates-will-double-in-price-each-year/ 



"_With that in mind, today we are announcing that we will offer paid Windows 7 Extended Security Updates (ESU) through January 2023. The Windows 7 ESU will be sold on a per-device basis and the price will increase each year. Windows 7 ESUs will be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers in Volume Licensing_ "

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/mic.../helping-customers-shift-to-a-modern-desktop/


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## phill (Mar 15, 2019)

I use Windows 10 but I am not a fan.  I use it because of programs I need to run but I'm sure there's a MAC/Linux replacement or alternative for them I just don't want to buy a MAC, but I run Linux for my Crunchers and I'm quite tempted to test out a Linux gaming rig.

I wish I had stuck with Windows 7, for me it was one of the best Window's OS's as far as they go.. Sadly though with newer GPUs and such I went with 10 and to my disappointment it wasn't all that it was really cracked up to be for me.  Still running 1803 on my gaming rig, it tried updating itself, crapped itself and then rolled back after an hour of my time went out the window...  

If I really would like to run another OS, I will simply install it and run it.  I've still got 98, XP Pro (32 and 64) and 7 64 Ultimate, for me, these were the best and with older hardware, I'd use this in a heart beat...


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## EarthDog (Mar 15, 2019)

I'm certain there will be some stragglers hanging on for dear life. If it's anything like XP, there will be some back door POS (Point of Sale) version of the OS where they can get security updates intended for a cash register and think it's still secure and hang on.. 


....or, they'll pay (pro and ent users..not home)...which..yikes in that if you arent a business. Move on to 8/10 AMD change the look. Plenty of people do it for their special reasons.


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## R-T-B (Mar 15, 2019)

Lightning said:


> Now try disabling the updater on 10 and see how long _that_ lasts.



I've been doing it since day 1 (for update self management).

Should I be expecting something? 



Assimilator said:


> Win10 is likely to be the last Windows. After that everything will transition to the cloud.



And you wonder why we advise linux...


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## 64K (Mar 15, 2019)

Regeneration said:


> Microsoft plans to introduce Extended Security Updates program for Windows 7. It will provide updates until 2023 for a price.



Curious to know how much that will be.


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## Deleted member 158293 (Mar 15, 2019)

Windows has become irrelevant for me beyond using it for a few games once in a while, so I really don't care what version it is.  Everything work related has moved to Linux, and most gaming I care about too for that matter.


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## Kursah (Mar 15, 2019)

I manage my updates through WSUS, but not everyone has the drive, ability or desire to run a home lab. I do it to keep me going in my career, though more so I still have tech work to do since I manage teams of engineers rather than being an engineer these days. WSUS + some solid powershell scripting to manage it FTW.

I'm on almost all 10 in my home and work environment, sprinkle in a couple 7 & 8.1 VM's, and a handful of Linux boxes and VM's. But for primary, 10's been solid for me overall. I'll keep on keeping on after 1/14, with the goal of helping my clients move on from 7. Even at the MSP I work for, we're supporting 7 under managed services for at least a year past the MS EOL date. It really depends on third party security support and what exploits come about after EOL hits that will signal when we can't justify managing it or need to raise rates to compensate for labor invested to keep the old OS running, secure and stable. 

When you start to see stuff like MBAM, WRSA, Avast, etc. start to drop support for 7, it's time to move on, past time in reality, but for those hanging on for whatever reason. That or run a virtual 7 if you need it for specific software if possible, Hyper-V is fine without hardware passthrough and is on all Windows Pro OSes since Windows 8 at or near the same capabilities as their Windows Server relatives.

Frankly my personal combo is Windows 10 1809 + Ubuntu Bionic Beaver, I'm pretty content with it overall. 




64K said:


> Curious to know how much that will be.



$50 for year 1, $100 for year 2, $200 for year 3. It's aimed at enterprise/business environments where moving from Windows 7 is truly detrimental to their operations and appears to be primarily offered to Windows Enterprise clients. We have several that are mulling this route, because their third party software devs still don't support 8 or 10, or Linux. When your business or industry operates on something so limited, you have no choice if nobody else offers a competing solution and you don't want to develop it on your own.

Source: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...urity-updates-will-double-in-price-each-year/


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> FFS why do people in these threads always say "use Linux"?


Because it's a good OS.


Assimilator said:


> Can I run most games on Linux, no.


Clearly, you haven't taken a look recently.


Assimilator said:


> Can I run Visual Studio on Linux, no.


Not many people are going to care about that one and if they do then you're right.


Assimilator said:


> So stop pushing an "alternative" that isn't.


Ok, if you're not interested, don't use it. No one is twisting your arm.


Vayra86 said:


> In the meantime, in the real world, people are moving _away _from anything that is complicated and not plug&play


So that's why people are resisting Windows 10 then... Makes sense really.


sepheronx said:


> I have Windows 10 Pro. It is growing on me now as I use it more. I wouldn't mind trying linux again though but its been a long time (Fedora Core 4)
> Any suggestions?


My vote is Linux Mint. https://linuxmint.com/


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## GoldenX (Mar 15, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> FFS why do people in these threads always say "use Linux"? Can I run most games on Linux, no. Can I run Visual Studio on Linux, no. Can I get assf**ked by Linux, probably - but that's not what I use my computer for and I doubt it's what most TPU members do either. So stop pushing an "alternative" that isn't.


You can run most games on Linux, search Steam Proton.
You can run Visual Studio from a VM if it's needed and you don't want to do a dual boot.
You can do all that with Windows Vista too, so it's not an argument.


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## Lightning (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I've been doing it since day 1 (for update self management).
> 
> Should I be expecting something?


It reactivates.


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## R-T-B (Mar 15, 2019)

Lightning said:


> It reactivates.



Only after a major update (there are two per year, you'll live) and it takes like 2 seconds to address.


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## MrGenius (Mar 15, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> I'm certain there will be some stragglers hanging on for dear life. If it's anything like XP, there will be some back door POS (Point of Sale) version of the OS where they can get security updates intended for a cash register and think it's still secure and hang on..


It's *P*oint *O*f *S*ervice(since it's used on ATMs and/or for various other non-sale related things). And, as a matter of fact, there is a Windows 7 POSReady that gets extended support until October 12, 2021. How easy it is to convert a non-POSReady version of 7 to a POSReady version remains to be seen. So far I'm finding reports that the registry hack used for XP doesn't work(or if it does work, it only works for 32-bit versions). But, supposedly, the relevant POSReady KB updates can be downloaded(from the Microsoft Update Catalog) and manually installed on any Windows 7 version.


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## ManGupta (Mar 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Actually there is a couple of good platforms that support all three, X58 and X79. A Dell T3500, T5500 or T7500 would work well if you wanted to triple boot. There are of course other systems that can be used.



XP won't require much resource ......... so you can even run it in VMWare.

I use it that way to run some legacy apps.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

ManGupta said:


> you can even run it in VMWare.


That's a good option too.


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## Lightning (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Only after a major update (there are two per year, you'll live) and it takes like 2 seconds to address.


No, that's the problem. The people that I installed it for are not tech savvy and when they have a perfectly running laptop one day, and they can't print stuff for their non-profits two weeks later for an inspection, they absolutely can't live with the os doing whatever the hell it wants.


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## notb (Mar 15, 2019)

P4-630 said:


> I'm using windows 10 myself but I was wondering what will you do as windows 7 user after January 14, 2020?....


I don't think this is that important. 1 year from now Windows 7 will not be supported, but it'll still work for a while.

The real question is: what will all the W7-huggers do in 2025? Because Windows will keep evolving in the direction they don't like and W7 will simply become a burden - things will either not work at all or need a ton of tinkering.

2030? 2040? Everyone around you control their PCs with mind-reading helmets, but you're holding on to your W7 because you don't like auto updates.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 15, 2019)

Vario said:


> I'd venture to say the Games forum ranting saltmine is the place for you.


Totally honest curiosity: where is that?


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## John Naylor (Mar 17, 2019)

Solaris17 said:


> please no, iv left that life behind.



I still use it .... I make a lot of SS based tools for a MMO I have played since 2004.  They basically do things like predict crafting results based upn any combo of 250 different farmed and 300 looted materials of varying grades.  Of course I often use them in office for construction estimating and design etc and Libre office is just fine if a bit unintuitive.   But when making a new template, I still go back and open 1-2-3 and start with that.  Still far more intuitive than anything I have seen since.   Males me laugh every time I do.   I also fondly remeber meeting the guy who wrote the MS Office Suite books ... from the early 90s to about 2005 when we lost touch ... every one of them was written in Lotus Word Pro.  We used to write manuals, well still do, for water treatment plants and even some products like Table Saws ... WLP was by far the easiest to manage pages with lots of graphs, tables and formats.   We'd save them into whatever format the client wanted at the end.  We left folk use whatever office suite they wanted .... but eventually, most moved to LWP.

Nowadays we use Libre Office for everday editing of long documents but whenever tackle  anew job, I make the template in LWP.


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## Melvis (Mar 17, 2019)

I will most likely just keep using 7, if it aint broke dont fix it and lets face it there will be some place on the internet to get the updates for free.

I will give LTSB Version of 10 a try though and see how I find it.

I got a Windows 8.1 Pro here as well with Classic shell seems to be not bad at all so its an option or I will slowly migrate over to Linux Mint but I think that will take some time or ill Dual boot it.


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## R-T-B (Mar 17, 2019)

Lightning said:


> No, that's the problem. The people that I installed it for are not tech savvy and when they have a perfectly running laptop one day, and they can't print stuff for their non-profits two weeks later for an inspection, they absolutely can't live with the os doing whatever the hell it wants.



The answer then is to setup a WSUS server and manage the updates as MS intended.


----------



## trparky (Mar 19, 2019)

Been running Windows 10 since it was released. OK sure, Windows 10 didn't start off great but it's been getting much better.


----------



## Fizban (Mar 19, 2019)

"What will you do after January 14, 2020?"

Continue using Windows 10 like I have since like, 2014?

Been using it since its very first pre-release builds were available on MSDN and never looked back.



Assimilator said:


> FFS why do people in these threads always say "use Linux"? Can I run most games on Linux, no. Can I run Visual Studio on Linux, no. Can I get assf**ked by Linux, probably - but that's not what I use my computer for and I doubt it's what most TPU members do either. So stop pushing an "alternative" that isn't.




Spoken like someone who's either never used linux, or last used it  decade ago. It's a perfectly viable alternative. You might run games at a lower framerate potentially, but you can absolutely run them.

As for Visual Studio - I wouldn't use that even if developing on Windows, so that's hardly something I'd consider a big deal, at all.


----------



## trparky (Mar 19, 2019)

Fizban said:


> As for Visual Studio - I wouldn't use that even if developing on Windows, so that's hardly something I'd consider a big deal, at all.


Why not? It's probably one of the best programming environments in the entire industry. Intellisense is a godsend.


----------



## delshay (Mar 19, 2019)

As my FX-60 is not supported by windows 10, I have a choice to continue to use windows 7 or move to Linux.

EDIT: I forgot, I could also jump to windows 8.0.


----------



## Fizban (Mar 19, 2019)

trparky said:


> Why not? It's probably one of the best programming environments in the entire industry. Intellisense is a godsend.



It's fine, but I prefer something more lightweight that isn't as heavy on resource consumption like Sublime.


----------



## GoldenX (Mar 19, 2019)

trparky said:


> Why not? It's probably one of the best programming environments in the entire industry. Intellisense is a godsend.


Intellisense also works on Visual Studio Code in Linux. The only reason to use VS is to get the best performance out of an .exe, for any other type of executable, LLVM or GCC.


----------



## Fizban (Mar 19, 2019)

delshay said:


> As my FX-60 is not supported by windows 10, I have a choice to continue to use windows 7 or move to Linux.
> 
> EDIT: I forgot, I could also jump to windows 8.0.



You could also jump to a processor that won't be 14 years old by then. I mean, I get that there's no need to buy a new processor every time a new generation comes out, but 14 years is really pushing it. That thing was over $1,000 at launch, and is now slower than a budget $100 cpu.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 19, 2019)

Melvis said:


> I will most likely just keep using 7, if it aint broke dont fix it and lets face it there will be some place on the internet to get the updates for free.
> 
> I will give LTSB Version of 10 a try though and see how I find it.
> 
> I got a Windows 8.1 Pro here as well with Classic shell seems to be not bad at all so its an option or I will slowly migrate over to Linux Mint but I think that will take some time or ill Dual boot it.



Updates can be deferred but you are still forced to install them after 1 year.


----------



## windwhirl (Mar 19, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Updates can be deferred but you are still forced to install them after 1 year.



Actually, each big version of Windows 10 (Anniversary, Creators, Fall Creators, etc.) gets around three years (30 months, actually, and only for Enterprise and Education editions, otherwise they get only 18 months) of support, since launch until the point where it stops receiving any kind of update. Though I imagine that you need to configure the OS upgrades from WSUS.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 19, 2019)

windwhirl said:


> Actually, each big version of Windows 10 (Anniversary, Creators, Fall Creators, etc.) gets around three years of support, since launch until the point where it stops receiving any kind of update. Though I imagine that you need to configure the OS upgrades from WSUS.



Ltsb


----------



## windwhirl (Mar 20, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Ltsb



Nope, that's for the ten years period. I'm talking about SAC (Semi-Annual Channel, the old Current Branch for Business). Although, the extended support (which is actually 30 months, not three years as I thought before) is only available on Enterprise and Education. And, again, I think that you need special servicing tools (WSUS or System Center Configuration Manager) to avoid OS upgrades during all that time.

Sources: Lifecycle fact-sheet and Release Information


----------



## erpguy53 (Mar 21, 2019)

windwhirl said:


> Nope, that's for the ten years period. I'm talking about SAC (Semi-Annual Channel, the old Current Branch for Business). Although, the extended support (which is actually 30 months, not three years as I thought before) is only available on Enterprise and Education. And, again, I think that you need special servicing tools (WSUS or System Center Configuration Manager) to avoid OS upgrades during all that time.
> 
> Sources: Lifecycle fact-sheet and Release Information



but if you look carefully at the MS Release info page there, windwhirl, the 1809 release is only available on SAC-T and LTSC channels, there's no SAC channel for 1809 yet.

https://www.askwoody.com/2019/when-...in10-1809-on-machines-set-for-the-sac-branch/


----------



## juiseman (Mar 21, 2019)

I just installed Windows 7 Enterprise today because Windows 10 has gotten slowly worse for me. 

The performance is just not there anymore; its an overweight bloated mess. it used to be lean and mean in July 2015.
Had a lot of issues with audio interfaces starting with 1703 I think....I was a first day adopter of WIN 10
and recommended it to everyone. But it got to the point of having to revert the updates 2 times. This was before I heard of the group policy edit.
I think reverting the updates messed up the install. it was taking 2 min to load on an 2000 mb sec NVme SSD....that's just stupid....

Once I got 7 up; i was booting in like 3 sec after post...

I'm going to ride 7 out for awhile. So long as all my software is working. so far my so good. clean as a whistle.
I plan to do regular backups incase I have an issue. But all the drivers on my x79/C600 chipset and NVME drive are good.
Happy to campout on 7 forever as long as I don't have a need for a program that is not compatible.

just my cents....

So far most people disagree with me, and don't have many issues ....(that they know about anyhow)...
I am a little more particular in that i know how my hardware should perform. And when its not; I start digging for
answers.


----------



## kastriot (Mar 21, 2019)

I am on win 10 for a year now and before that i had win 7 enterprise but like they say "all good  things come to end" and we must go with  time.


----------



## juiseman (Mar 21, 2019)

yes, I have 10 on my other 5 computers and 1 mac on OSX 10.13.6,
I have some Audio production software's that I use in my Studio that
needs to work when I need it too; not when Microsoft want's it to...

I'm hoping to ride out 7 until I really need to upgrade for some reason ...I'm all X79 and x58 rigs,
that work great for my needs. Until 8 and 10 core CPU's are not relevant anymore for the DAWs...
We will see how AMD new Cpu's perform at low latency audio. In this 
respect Intel still is king. But I bet AMD will close the gap in the near future.

But yea I'll need to go back to 10 for sure if I upgrade to a new board....


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 21, 2019)

juiseman said:


> I just installed Windows 7 Enterprise





kastriot said:


> I am on win 10 for a year now and before that i had win 7 enterprise


Out of curiousity, why would anyone use Windows 7 "Enterprise"?


----------



## GoldenX (Mar 21, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Out of curiousity, why would anyone use Windows 7 "Enterprise"?


Easier to use with KMSPi... coff coff.
They had some DVDs around, and a valid licence, yeaaah.


----------



## Fizban (Mar 21, 2019)

juiseman said:


> I think reverting the updates messed up the install. it was taking 2 min to load on an 2000 mb sec NVme SSD....that's just stupid....




Definitely something wrong with your particular installation. Windows 10 boots up incredibly fast on my laptop. Not sure if faster than Windows 7 would necessarily, but at least comparably fast.


----------



## trparky (Mar 21, 2019)

Fizban said:


> Definitely something wrong with your particular installation. Windows 10 boots up incredibly fast on my laptop. Not sure if faster than Windows 7 would necessarily, but at least comparably fast.


I'd agree.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 21, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> Easier to use with KMSPi... coff coff.
> They had some DVDs around, and a valid licence, yeaaah.


That's not what I was wondering, Windows 7 Ultimate has everything a general or even power user could need, so what would 7 Enterprise have to offer that would make using it preferable?


Fizban said:


> Definitely something wrong with your particular installation. Windows 10 boots up incredibly fast on my laptop. Not sure if faster than Windows 7 would necessarily, but at least comparably fast.


With an SSD, the difference isn't really noticeable. It's only a couple of second faster. Yay...


----------



## GoldenX (Mar 21, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's not what I was wondering, Windows 7 Ultimate has everything a general or even power user could need, so what would 7 Enterprise have to offer that would make using it preferable?
> 
> With an SSD, the difference isn't really noticeable. It's only a couple of second faster. Yay...


KMS server validations only work with Pro or Enterprise, so...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 22, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> KMS server validations only work with Pro or Enterprise, so...


That's not what I'm asking though..


lexluthermiester said:


> what would 7 Enterprise have to offer that would make using it preferable?


This. Why use it over 7 Ultimate?


----------



## windwhirl (Mar 22, 2019)

erpguy53 said:


> but if you look carefully at the MS Release info page there, windwhirl, the 1809 release is only available on SAC-T and LTSC channels, there's no SAC channel for 1809 yet.
> 
> https://www.askwoody.com/2019/when-...in10-1809-on-machines-set-for-the-sac-branch/



Yes, that is because SAC is meant to be released once Microsoft is sure that most of the bugs in SAC-T have been fixed. The 1809 release will probably be available on SAC after 19H1/1903 reaches SAC-T.

The whole release cycle is something like this: MS Internal builds -> Windows Insider Skip Ahead -> Insider Fast Ring / Slow Ring -> Release Preview -> SAC-T -> SAC

EDIT: I was not satisfied with what I wrote, so I run CMapTools and made something I hope is a little bit better.


----------



## Athlonite (Mar 22, 2019)

windows 10 for everyone


----------



## juiseman (Mar 22, 2019)

Windows 7 Enterprise is basically the same as Ultimate. But usually is more stable IMOP...

Lol.. yes KMSp was my fall back; but I found a legit key for $6 on Ebay. so no funny business needed....

Which is great. I never did trust the DAZ bootloaders or KMS Pico....I'm sure they both
have lots of dirty ware inside them. PLus the fact everyone and their mother probably reverse 
engineers those and repost them online. so you never know what your getting into.


----------



## Munki (Mar 22, 2019)

I will continue to ignore it. Just less times i'll have to reboot


----------



## Dinnercore (Mar 22, 2019)

Gonna make the switch to templeOS. 

Okay to be serious, I don´t care. I didn´t care back when XP was dropped and now I´ll do the same and just continue to use 7 on my systems that run on it. Most of them are offline anyway so whats the big deal. 
My main system for work and important stuff is already on Win10 for a while now, but not out of free choice but rather because I needed it in order to make use of most recent hardware :/


----------



## Ahhzz (Mar 22, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's not what I'm asking though..
> 
> This. Why use it over 7 Ultimate?


I'm running Ultimate, and have been since the expo in Atlanta got me a free license. However, the KMS versions allow for activation of N and E versions, which remove stuff like mandatory IE, windows media player, etc. That's why I would go that route, anyway 
As for after 2020? I'll continue to run Windows 7 Ultimate, unless the corporation I support which is moving to the LTSB process can manage to license me under their account. And I'm not sure if I'll do it then. 7 is stable for me, and my exposure to vulnerabilities is low. Even with wandering, as I'm prone to saying, "the back alleys of the Internet", I haven't had to deal with a personal instance of a virus or malware on the household PCs for years. I'll stick with 7 until I can't manage to force it onto my next system.


----------



## ManGupta (Mar 22, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> KMS server validations only work with Pro or Enterprise, so...


you can use Daz Loader instead of KMS and go for Ultimate Version.


----------



## GoldenX (Mar 22, 2019)

ManGupta said:


> you can use Daz Loader instead of KMS and go for Ultimate Version.


I was referring to legal KMS validation, but oh well, you're not wrong.


----------



## Komshija (Mar 22, 2019)

I will keep Win 7 SP1 on my back-up laptop and Win 8.1 on my PC. Win 10 needs a lot more tweaking and deleting certain updates to block telemetry and other direct-spying tools.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 22, 2019)

juiseman said:


> I never did trust the DAZ bootloaders


I've tried them out of curiousity, never had a problem as far as virii/malware. DAZ was/is clean.


----------



## ManGupta (Mar 24, 2019)

Anyone here have any experience of running Spybot Antibecon on Windows 10 to enforce privacy. ...? ....... How good it is ? ... Does it work the way intended and blocks Microsoft's Spying.??

Anyone here have experience of using GPEdit to block Microsoft Update in Windows 10 ... ??


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Mar 24, 2019)

Continue running Windows 10 like I've been doing since it launched.


----------



## Countryside (Mar 24, 2019)

Havent used 7 for a long time now,  will keep on using win10 on main pc and win8.1 on my workbench pc until support ends.


----------



## kastriot (Mar 24, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Out of curiousity, why would anyone use Windows 7 "Enterprise"?



Just to answer the question i got it from my work where they bought volume licence for 1000 PC-s


----------



## trparky (Mar 24, 2019)

ManGupta said:


> Anyone here have any experience of running Spybot Antibecon on Windows 10 to enforce privacy. ...? ....... How good it is ? ... Does it work the way intended and blocks Microsoft's Spying.??
> 
> Anyone here have experience of using GPEdit to block Microsoft Update in Windows 10 ... ??


Just turn the telemetry to Basic Mode and you're fine. The European Union and their GDPR law has said that it's OK and that's good enough for me. After all, the GDPR is the strongest privacy law on the books anywhere in the world. If it passes the GDPR, it's good.


----------



## Countryside (Mar 24, 2019)

Interesting thing is that at the moment you can use Win10 without activation just some settings are locked but will it remain so after Win7 is laid to rest.


----------



## Razrback16 (Mar 24, 2019)

I have no specific date in mind for a migration to Windows 10. For me it will depend on the gaming market. If a game or piece of hardware I upgrade to requires Win10, then I'll migrate to it, until then I'll run Win7 x64.


----------



## Konceptz (Apr 4, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Absolutely nothing.  Not a single Windows 7 install in my care.  Most machines were updated from Windows 7 to Windows 10 years ago.



+1 for this.

Every machine I've had come in with an issue and had Win7 , goes out the door with Win10. No complaints or issues (even with the 1809 fiasco). 
Side note, most women find the UI differences between 7 and 10 to be quite appealing. least that's been my experience.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 4, 2019)

trparky said:


> Just turn the telemetry to Basic Mode and you're fine.


Or better yet, delete the "diagtrack" service and the telemetry function goes bye-bye.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 4, 2019)

Konceptz said:


> +1 for this.
> 
> Every machine I've had come in with an issue and had Win7 , goes out the door with Win10. No complaints or issues (even with the 1809 fiasco).
> Side note, most women find the UI differences between 7 and 10 to be quite appealing. least that's been my experience.



There is no problem with 10, at least not with any regular consumer. Businesses also upgrade no problem whatsoever. And that should be the real indicator here. When the enterprise version works and gets widely implemented, you just know there's no way back and its here to stay.

Note that not a single sizeable business migrated to W8 or 8.1; and similarly, very few moved from XP to Vista - at least not that I know of anyway. Up until last week I had a W7 laptop, now its a new 10 one.


----------



## biffzinker (Aug 10, 2019)

Six months of support left, soon to be five months as of August 14th.


----------



## Jetster (Aug 10, 2019)

Nothing, I moved on a long time ago


----------



## JackDarx (Aug 10, 2019)

Planning to switch to 10 early next year, when I get a 1TB SSD (preferrably something solid like a Samsung Evo), simply because I don't like the idea of installing 10 on any of my HDDs . Gonna have to grab a license for 10 though, a cheap key should do the trick.


----------



## johnny-r (Aug 10, 2019)

I've been running  windows 7 Ult64 for about the last 9 years and played around  with windows 10 on my laptop for the past 3 years or so, it looks like it's sorted now and I've decided  to give it a go on my current gaming pc and so far so good ! My Ryzen seems to like the new CPU drivers from AMD.


----------



## Jetster (Aug 10, 2019)

JackDarx said:


> Planning to switch to 10 early next year, when I get a 1TB SSD (preferrably something solid like a Samsung Evo), simply because I don't like the idea of installing 10 on any of my HDDs . Gonna have to grab a license for 10 though, a cheap key should do the trick.



Cool thing about 10 is you can install it now. Change the drive later, download the most resent install media and install. No need for a license it will license your pc automatically. Or you can use Samsung Data Migration to clone the drive in minutes. It doesn't count a new drive and a change in hardware and its licenses to the motherboard


----------



## micropage7 (Aug 10, 2019)

P4-630 said:


> I mean there are other options, like Linux for example if you hate windows 10 that much.


nope, in here. in small office win 7 still rocking and i don't see any reason to push them to move into Win 10, except maybe there's no new driver for new hardware in win 7


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 10, 2019)

I'm still on the fence. I've got Windows 7 locked up and secure to the point where I doubt anything beyond a delivered group attack will ever have a chance at getting in(even then it's doubtful). However, there are things 10 can do that 7 can not. As much as I love my Xeon based system, Threadripper is tempting me just a little much(TR as apposed to Ryzen because of quad channel ram) and while I can force 7 to install on a TR setup, 10 is to the point where it can be managed from a security standpoint.


----------



## shovenose (Aug 10, 2019)

Happily running 10 on almost everything, except some CentOS servers. I'm building a new NAS right now... It'll be running Windows 10 Pro. Works fine for me! I do think Win7 is the king of uptime, though... I had a Win7 PC that wasn't even on a UPS with over 2 years uptime before I borrowed some parts from it. Win10 probably would have rebooted for updates far before then LOL.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Aug 10, 2019)

I wont bat a eye lid because im happy with windows 10 matey, but ill keep a copy of 7 just for old times sake   .


----------



## Raouf_Pr0 (Aug 10, 2019)

I'm using windows 10 but I have my old laptop with windows 7 so , I will keep using it


----------



## delshay (Aug 15, 2019)

It looks like I will stay with win 7, but I will try & get hold of the paid updates for the next two years.


----------



## Frick (Aug 15, 2019)

Hoping for relly bad Windows 7 0-days found in the wild.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 15, 2019)

Frick said:


> Hoping for *really* bad Windows 7 0-days found in the wild.


Very unlikely. Seriously though, why hope that? Just seems spiteful and bitter.


----------



## Boatvan (Aug 15, 2019)

I always take the enterprise point of view, but we are working on eradicating 7 at work. With the ...ahem... lack of power users in my environment, it is better safe than sorry. We really work hard to make the windows 10 images slim, efficient, and tailored to our hardware. 

I think people like us can be a lot more careful than the typical home user. It all boils down to a mix of personal preference, willingness to change, risk, and benefits of staying with 7. I myself made peace with the fact that 7 support was ending. I upgraded to 10 at the perfect time at home. 10 was around long enough where it was decent for my use by the time I got to it.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 15, 2019)

JackDarx said:


> Planning to switch to 10 early next year, when I get a 1TB SSD (preferrably something solid like a Samsung Evo), simply because I don't like the idea of installing 10 on any of my HDDs . Gonna have to grab a license for 10 though, a cheap key should do the trick.



win 10 actually runs on HDD's surprisingly fast. also, if you "upgrade this PC" it will activate your old key as a new win 10 key, then you can just do a clean install after with the win 7 key (same mobo required, etc) - they never stopped, even though they said they did... lol I just tested this two weeks ago with a win 7 key


----------



## yotano211 (Aug 15, 2019)

After January 14. 2020, I'll switch over to watching porn on windows 8.1


----------



## las (Aug 15, 2019)

I will be running Windows 10 like I has been doing for years now. Atleast on my "gaming rig". Windows 7 feels dated these days.

I use MacOS on my MacBook Pro and Arch Linux on my Thinkpad.


----------



## Boatvan (Aug 15, 2019)

I also want to clarify on my post, Windows 7 was a SOLID operating system for many years. Just time to move on for our environment.


----------



## Apocalypsee (Aug 15, 2019)

I use whatever Windows that was optimal for my hardware. Both my Ryzen desktop and Bristol Ridge laptop currently using Windows 10 while my old Core 2 Duo HP 6910p will be using good old Windows XP, Windows 7 works on this laptop but the GPU driver works better in XP than 7. My wife PC using Core i5 4670k still using Windows 7, don't plan to change that. Too much patch slowing this CPU down, the main reason why I jumped to Ryzen in the first place, and most games runs better with more cores.


----------



## yotano211 (Aug 15, 2019)

Apocalypsee said:


> I use whatever Windows that was optimal for my hardware. Both my Ryzen desktop and Bristol Ridge laptop currently using Windows 10 while my old Core 2 Duo HP 6910p will be using good old Windows XP, Windows 7 works on this laptop but the GPU driver works better in XP than 7. My wife PC using Core i5 4670k still using Windows 7, don't plan to change that. Too much patch slowing this CPU down, the main reason why I jumped to Ryzen in the first place, and most games runs better with more cores.


I sure miss those HP elitebooks. I started my business on those elitebooks. I once stepped on the lip when it was closed for a split sec and the screen survived. The elitebook line ran the business for close to 5 years.
I started with the HP 2510p, 9cell battery and super slow processor, ran at 1.33ghz, dual core.


----------



## king of swag187 (Aug 15, 2019)

I'll continue to rotate between 8.1/Lubuntu for lower end PC's and laptops, and 10 for my gaming rig's.


----------



## juiseman (Aug 15, 2019)

Still love the feel and look of Windows 7....very fond memories. I still have it on 1 of my x79 E5 Xeon Rigs. Works great..


----------



## John Naylor (Aug 15, 2019)

Moving to Windows 10 still means replacing a $15,000 plotter.  Will always keep at least 1 box or a dual boot option.

I still find 1-2-3 by far superior to Excel from an ease of use PoV.  Still do everything in 1-2-3 and save to an Excel for sharing.  Does a 20 years newer Excel do things that 1-2-3 can't do ?  I'll bet it does .... but how does that benefit me in anyway since what I have does all I need abtter and faster than anything else ?  Like the "cause it has more cores" argument.  We do CAD here and CAD gets 0 benefit from 12, 16 or 24 core CPUs.


----------



## yotano211 (Aug 15, 2019)

juiseman said:


> Still love the feel and look of Windows 7....very fond memories. I still have it on 1 of my x79 E5 Xeon Rigs. Works great..


You can install Windows 7 shell over Windows 10, it will look and feel like windows 7.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 15, 2019)

Boatvan said:


> Windows 7 was a SOLID operating system for many years.


Still is. 7 is not going to just implode when support ends. XP didn't and won't, some people still use it.



yotano211 said:


> You can install Windows 7 shell over Windows 10, it will look and feel like windows 7.


Where's that?


----------



## EarthDog (Aug 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Still is. 7 is not going to just implode when support ends. XP didn't and won't, some people still use it.
> 
> 
> Where's that?


it wont implode... but it will get less secure as support stops. Unless you have a piece of software which requires it or one of those zomg telemetry nuts...why stay on an inferior (albeit functional) OS?

XP (POS version) is still supported iirc.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 15, 2019)

No Loss to me ill carry on regardless no 7s here.


----------



## Boatvan (Aug 16, 2019)

@lexluthermiester I did not mean it would implode, merely that without patching in some environments it is no longer the best solution. I trust my users as far as I can throw them is all I'm saying. Also, I suppose I used the past tense incorrectly. Windows 7 IS still solid for most users.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 20, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> No Loss to me ill carry on regardless no 7s here.


After some reconsideration ,Good ridence , my only question is when will 7 be removed from my work pcs(retorical?) ,Im hoping the hard drive based POS's doesn't support 10 , which it doesn't and I might get a PC worth a shit to use in work.
Lots of reboots today, can you tell.


----------



## notb (Aug 20, 2019)

Protos said:


> I will probably move to Linux to be honest...


I'd be willing to bet you won't if this was worth anything to me. Almost no one will.

With each new Windows basically the same group of people (+young joiners) says it's the end of Windows for them and they'll move to Linux or Mac or grow a beard and become a lumberjack.
But we all know you'll stay for games or pro software.
And few months later you'll decide Windows 10 is the best OS yet and you'll wish you'd upgrade earlier.

And if you're still a kid, you'll most likely grow into a bickering 40-year-old white-collar who'll walk around the office saying "I can't find anything in this new Office, why can't we go back to Excel 2003?"


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 27, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Very unlikely. Seriously though, why hope that? Just seems spiteful and bitter.



I'd say it's not only likely, but will grow exponentially more likely with every passing year.  There'll be a lot of eyes turned on it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 27, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I'd say it's not only likely, but will grow exponentially more likely with every passing year.  There'll be a lot of eyes turned on it.


That is what many were saying about XP/Vista but that didn't happen. Sure, they've had a few problems, but nothing a solid firewall can't handle. Windows 7 will be no different.


----------



## er557 (Aug 27, 2019)

NOTHING will happen, just firewall your router/OS/ security suite, disable RDP and you're good to go.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 27, 2019)

er557 said:


> NOTHING will happen, just firewall your router/OS/ security suite, disable RDP and you're good to go.


To that I would add, disable(or delete) Remote Registry and disable(don't delete as Windows need it present to run) Windows Error Reporting.


----------



## 64K (Aug 27, 2019)

I think Win 7 will be a target for hackers after the end of support for it by MS because from what I can see there are still quite a bit of people running Win 7 and many are saying they plan to keep running it after support ends. Hackers tend to go after targets that are large and reach a lot of PCs. I doubt many are still targeting XP or Vista because almost no one is running those but that doesn't make them safe imo.

I know that tech knowledgeable people know ways to better protect themselves but what about the average person. I've had to show some people how to use Task Manager when they get a screen that they can't close out of because it's trying to hang the user up until they buy whatever crap that's being sold or to use msconfig to stop unwanted programs from auto starting on Win 7. Most have never heard of Malwarebytes.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 27, 2019)

64K said:


> I think Win 7 will be a target for hackers after the end of support for it by MS because from what I can see there are still quite a bit of people running Win 7 and many are saying they plan to keep running it after support ends. Hackers tend to go after targets that are large and reach a lot of PCs. I doubt many are still targeting XP or Vista because almost no one is running those but that doesn't make them safe imo.


While those are excellent points consider the following; Windows 7, like XP before it is a very mature and well researched OS. Microsoft has fixed the vast majority of any problems it had and what little might be left is only going to be a problem for those who do not use security measures.



64K said:


> I know that tech knowledgeable people know ways to better protect themselves but what about the average person.


Most of the average people are the ones moving to Windows 10 because they know enough to realize that they don't have the know-how to properly secure 7. Windows 10 will fit their needs. Most of the rest moving to 10 are doing so for gaming reasons.


64K said:


> I've had to show some people how to use Task Manager when they get a screen that they can't close out of because it's trying to hang the user up until they buy whatever crap that's being sold or to use msconfig to stop unwanted programs from auto starting on Win 7. Most have never heard of Malwarebytes.


I've had to do this too. Teaching is the best thing we can do for people.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Aug 27, 2019)

delshay said:


> It looks like I will stay with win 7, but I will try & get hold of the paid updates for the next two years.



As far as im aware (though i could be wrong) i thought that was reserved for non commercial settings - like businesses and the like who could most likely afford to pay for such things. I dont think it will be cheap but who knows.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 27, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> As far as im aware (though i could be wrong) i thought that was reserved for non commercial settings - like businesses and the like who could most likely afford to pay for such things. I dont think it will be cheap but who knows.


Yeah, but you know those updates will be leaked like the XP extended updates were. In fact, the latest XP ISO made with current updates was made a few months ago(this year was the final year of that extended support program). This year is quite literally XP's last update hurrah.








						Windows XP - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




This is year is not Windows 7's last hurrah, the custom ISO community will work to continue like they did with XP.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Aug 27, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yeah, but you know those updates will be leaked like the XP extended updates were. In fact, the latest XP ISO made with current updates was made a few months ago(this year was the final year of that extended support program). This year is quite literally XP's last update hurrah.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah but if that comes through an unofficial 3rd party source then they can't be 100% trusted. Leaked or not it falls in the domain of 'warez'. So the irony is that you're trying to secure something official by downloading unofficial wares from an unofficial source. Sources that can fill these patches with malware


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 27, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Yeah but if that comes through an unofficial 3rd party source then they can't be 100% trusted. Leaked or not it falls in the domain of 'warez'.


Do you consider TPU a "warez" site? Because you can get quite a few Microsoft updates here. That said, there are plenty of sites out there that provide solid and safe custom ISO's. Of course there is always slip-streaming, which is not a difficult effort.


FreedomEclipse said:


> So the irony is that you're trying to secure something official by downloading unofficial wares from an unofficial source. Sources that can fill these patches with malware


There are plenty of those kinds of sites out there. However some of them are trustworthy.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Aug 27, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Do you consider TPU a "warez" site? Because you can get quite a few Microsoft updates here. That said, there are plenty of sites out there that provide solid and safe custom ISO's. Of course there is always slip-streaming, which is not a difficult effort.
> 
> There are plenty of those kinds of sites out there. However some of them are trustworthy.



still unofficial though. which is my point. anyone can write any sort of malicious code or bundle malware/spyware with it. of course you can still slipstream updates yourself at the same time I doubt microsoft will make these '_paid updates_' available for everyone to DL, including the ones that havent paid for such a service.

Im not sure how it works but there has to be a system which logs the keys of businesses to have paid for such a service to make sure only they can get the updates and nobody else in the commercial market.

I doubt M$ are going to release a service pack for TPU to upload and host on their servers officially. so your argument is kinda moot.


----------



## biffzinker (Aug 27, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I'd say it's not only likely, but will grow exponentially more likely with every passing year.  There'll be a lot of eyes turned on it.


If it's really bad then Microsoft will push out a patch.


> Despite the end of support for Windows XP, Microsoft has released three emergency security updates for the operating system to patch major security vulnerabilities:
> 
> 
> A patch released in May 2014 to address recently discovered vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer 6 through 11 on all versions of Windows.
> ...













						Windows XP - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## trparky (Sep 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Sure, they've had a few problems, but nothing a solid firewall can't handle. Windows 7 will be no different.


Unless, of course, a kernel vulnerability is found at the networking level where it takes no interaction from the user to be exploited.

Some of you may not be old enough to remember the dark old days of Windows 9x in which there was a TCP/IP stack vulnerability that could be triggered with a malformed packet which would cause the system to instantly crash. I remember because that vulnerability was weaponized into something that all you needed to do was get someone's IP, plug it in, press a button and the offending person was instantly knocked offline. It was the favorite tool of choice for those who were, shall we say, people with less than good sportsmanship in games at the time. If they were losing a game they'd use to tool to knock people offline and win by default.

Why am I saying this? Well, it's rather simple. A router may seem adequate unless of course you already know an open port into the system which if you know of one you can simply sneak a malformed packet in and strike without the user knowing. Now, this could be mitigated but would have to be mitigated at the router level before it even hits your Windows 7 system with the use of a full stateful packet inspection in which all packets that come in are analyzed for content and source. Unfortunately, most home routers don't do this; they're pretty much dumb devices that simply pass on whatever they're sent from the WAN side to the LAN side with the use of NAT. Incoming port 2354 is sent to the machine with an internal IP of 192.168.1.68 on the same port, there's no source check so if a bad guy were to be able to know exactly when to strike, they could sneak in a packet to that port and it would slip through and hit your internal system and the router would just be happy to pass it.

So with that being said, if a kernel vulnerability was found and the TCP/IP stack is at risk you could, in theory, be vulnerable no matter what you do if you continue to stay on Windows 7. All it would take is a malformed packet and then boom, BSOD hell.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 3, 2019)

trparky said:


> Unless, of course, a kernel vulnerability is found at the networking level where it takes no interaction from the user to be exploited.


This statement implies you might misunderstand how a firewall works. If you can't access the kernel, any vulnerabilities are a moot point.


trparky said:


> Some of you may not be old enough to remember the dark old days of Windows 9x in which there was a TCP/IP stack vulnerability that could be triggered with a malformed packet which would cause the system to instantly crash.


Oh, that is very well remembered. While it was a bit more complicated than that, you summed it up well. That problem is what started my interest in firewalls. Started using one shortly there after. Tiny Personal Firewall was a good one until Kerio Personal Firewall arrived. 


trparky said:


> Now, this could be mitigated but would have to be mitigated at the router level before it even hits your Windows 7 system with the use of a full stateful packet inspection in which all packets that come in are analyzed for content and source.


That is incorrect. Most routers have packet inspection built into their firewalls. Additionally, I have yet to find a software firewall that does not also include said feature.


trparky said:


> Unfortunately, most home routers don't do this


Yes, they do.


trparky said:


> Incoming port 2354 is sent to the machine with an internal IP of 192.168.1.68 on the same port, there's no source check so if a bad guy were to be able to know exactly when to strike, they could sneak in a packet to that port and it would slip through and hit your internal system and the router would just be happy to pass it.


All competent firewalls close ports that are not in use, stealth them and will reject packets for ports that are not open. Additionally, most firewalls will reject packets not expected by the system, IE unsolicited packets.


trparky said:


> So with that being said, if a kernel vulnerability was found and the TCP/IP stack is at risk you could, in theory, be vulnerable no matter what you do if you continue to stay on Windows 7.


If you are not using a firewall(the one built into Windows itself does not count), that would be true.


----------



## trparky (Sep 3, 2019)

Most home routers are mainly dumb NAT devices. They simply forward stuff from the WAN side to the LAN side with an entry in the NAT table. Anything coming in on port 2354 would then be forwarded to the LAN side based upon the entry in the NAT table. Yes, if a port is not open and thus not having an entry in the NAT table that port would show up as closed and/or stealth. However, if a port has been opened anything from the WAN side could, in theory, send stuff to port 2354 and that data would be forwarded onto the system on the LAN side. Again, most home routers are purely dumb NAT devices; there's no stateful packet inspection going on since for the most part this would require a whole lot more computing resources than most home routers have which usually consist of some low power ARM SoC. We're not talking Cisco routers here, we're talking about pretty much dumb devices.


----------



## FinneousPJ (Sep 3, 2019)

The same thing I always do...

Try to take over the world.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

So I've decided to try out Win10 Pro 1903 for a month on my personal internet system(the system I'm typing from) and so far it's manageable, but more importantly, securable. Cortana, Internet Explorer, Edge, Windows Defender, all of the bloat Apps and a few select services have been removed(deleted). A solid firewall has been installed and tested. While getting it to a usable/securable state was akin to pulling teeth from an uncooperative rhino, it can be done..


----------



## trparky (Sep 4, 2019)

Why remove Windows Defender? Didn't you see the news article about Windows Defender beating out the big-name AVs?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

trparky said:


> Why remove Windows Defender? *Didn't you see the news article about Windows Defender beating out the big-name AVs*?


I did, even commented on it. Something along the lines of "it's annoying", "I don't trust it" and "Microsoft can eat dog feces for forcing it and all the other crap on us". I want an installation of Windows that is lean, clean, bare bones with no extras. I can take care of my own security, utility and entertainment needs, thank you very much.


----------



## trparky (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I want an installation of Windows that is lean, clean, bare bones with no extra. I can take care of my own security and utility needs, thank you very much.


You seem to forget that we mostly live in a computing world dominated by dumbasses that need all the hand-holding that they can get and a metric fuckton more. In other words, Windows needs to come with stuff built-in lest we'll have an Internet filled with slithering worms.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

trparky said:


> You seem to forget that we mostly live in a computing world dominated by dumbasses that need all the hand-holding that they can get and a metric fuckton more.


No I didn't.


trparky said:


> In other words, Windows needs to come with stuff built-in lest we'll have an Internet filled with slithering worms.


What we need is for people to be taught a good computing ethic and the option for those of us power users to do our own thing without all the aforementioned rhino teeth pulling rigmarole.


----------



## trparky (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> What we need is for people to be taught a good computing ethic


Good luck with that, I'm afraid you'll need it.


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 4, 2019)

trparky said:


> Why remove Windows Defender?


Because the Realtime Scanner Service is always scanning slowing down apps?


----------



## trparky (Sep 4, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> Because the Realtime Scanner Service is always scanning slowing down apps?


Yeah, if you have a potato for a PC then yes... I can see that. However, those of us who have... a modern system it's barely a blip on the processor usage charts.


----------



## theFOoL (Sep 4, 2019)

I'm pretty sure regardless when MS says it'll stop updates, they'll keep updating with security updates and with more .NET Frame patches


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

trparky said:


> Yeah, if you have a potato for a PC then yes...


It does that on brand new PC's...


----------



## trparky (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> It does that on brand new PC's...


What? I need some proof of that because I'm using Windows Defender right now on my 8700K equipped system and I barely notice it when compared to what I was using before (Avast). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that my system is running faster with Windows Defender as versus the boat anchor that is Avast.


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> It does that on brand new PC's...


Temporarily disabling the service shows a stark difference even with a Samsung 970 EVO NVMe. Also slows down the system during Windows Updates.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

trparky said:


> What? I need some proof of that


No thanks. If you don't agree, carry on.


trparky said:


> What? I need some proof of that that my system is running faster with Windows Defender as versus the boat anchor that is Avast.


Well there's half your problem, your comparing it to Avast. Yikes! You can do better.


----------



## trparky (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Well there's half your problem, your comparing it to Avast. Yikes! You can do better.


Uh... any recommendations?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> Temporarily disabling the service


What was your method for doing so? I used WinAeroTweaker before deleting it.



trparky said:


> Uh... any recommendations?


Oh easy, Comodo.





						Best Internet Security Software 2022 | Antivirus Total Security
					

Comodo's best internet security software is an advanced best antivirus total security for web threats. The best internet security and Computer security software.




					www.comodo.com
				



I actively promote this suite to all of my clients. The premium version is only $5 a year. Anyone can afford that.
The firewall side of it is currently second to none.

I also promote the very excellent browsers they have.
If you have a preference for Firefox;





						Comodo IceDragon Browser | Download Free Internet Browser
					

IceDragon Browser from Comodo. Get free private browser which is compatible with all add-ons & plugins for all-around performance. Download now!



					icedragon.comodo.com
				



100% compatible with all plugins.

If you have a preference for Chrome;








						Best Internet Browser 2022 | Free Secure Web Browser
					

Best Internet Browser, Comodo Dragon secure web browser download offers a chromium based, fast, secure best internet browser. Get a free web browser.




					www.comodo.com
				



Again, 100% compatible with all plugins, but without the limitations imposed by Google.


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> No thanks. If you don't agree, carry on.
> 
> Well there's half your problem, your comparing it to Avast. Yikes! You can do better.


I tried to leave Windows Defender alone when installing updates but when the installing process goes faster with the Realtime Scanner service disabled well.



lexluthermiester said:


> What was your method for doing so? I used WinAeroTweaker before deleting it.


Windows Security then toggle the button from on to off. Currently Windows Defender is disabled with WinAero Tweaker.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> Currently Windows Defender is disabled with WinAero Tweaker.


Great minds think alike?


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Great minds think alike?


I'd leave defender on and alone if it wasn't inconveniencing me.


----------



## Liquid Cool (Sep 4, 2019)

What am I going to do on January 14, 2020?   Probably be running around upgrading pc's because everyone likes to wait until the last minute.   Every single person that I've warned...which is quite a few...haven't heard a single word out of any of them.

From my experience...pc's have been catching a lot more dust in the last few years.  Most people are busy staring into their phones.  I haven't done a single full upgrade in the last three years.  A few repairs, memory/ssd upgrades etc...but zero full upgrades.  People are either buying HP/Dell pre-builts or just sitting on their old machines.

For my own rigs...I've already converted my systems over to Linux.  Best move I've ever made.

Best,

Liquid Cool


----------



## FinneousPJ (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I did, even commented on it. Something along the lines of "it's annoying", "I don't trust it" and "Microsoft can eat dog feces for forcing it and all the other crap on us". I want an installation of Windows that is lean, clean, bare bones with no extras. I can take care of my own security, utility and entertainment needs, thank you very much.


Bruh. Linux.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

FinneousPJ said:


> Bruh. Linux.


Bruh? You clearly don't know who you're saying "Bruh" to. I love Linux. Mint is my personal goto distro. However, there are some things I can't do, or do as easily, on Linux as opposed to Windows. As much as I detest Windows 10, it's worth the effort to try to make it work the way I want it to. If such an effort fails, I'll use 7 until it's not possible to do so and then migrate to Linux.


----------



## FinneousPJ (Sep 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Bruh? You clearly don't know who you're saying "Bruh" to. I love Linux. Mint is my personal goto distro. However, there are some things I can't do, or do as easily, on Linux as opposed to Windows. As much as I detest Windows 10, it's worth the effort to try to make it work the way I want it to. If such an effort fails, I'll use 7 until it's not possible to do so and then migrate to Linux.


I still run a dual-boot, but I'm using Windows less and less. Nowadays the migration is very easy, and the reasons not to do so are fading fast. "As easily," is an issue of getting used to a new way of doing things 

If I may, what makes Win10 worth the effort?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2019)

FinneousPJ said:


> Nowadays the migration is very easy, and the reasons not to do so are fading fast.


Oh yeah, it's very easy.


FinneousPJ said:


> If I may, what makes Win10 worth the effort?


I do alot of specialized tasks that are not easily achieved in Linux, or at all in a few cases. For professional confidentiality reasons I'm not at liberty to to detail them out.


----------



## FinneousPJ (Sep 5, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh yeah, it's very easy.
> 
> I do alot of specialized tasks that are not easily achieved in Linux, or at all in a few cases. For professional confidentiality reasons I'm not at liberty to to detail them out.


Well, I was referring to personal use anyway. Professionally I am forced to use Win10 as well, nothing to do about it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 6, 2019)

So, update on the Windows 10 install on my personal system. It's hit a snag. A critical security program that I use, just doesn't want to work right, so I'm going to go back to testing and try again next month. Til then, back to 7..


----------



## Mr.Scott (Sep 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> back to 7..


----------



## trparky (Sep 6, 2019)

What security software? If it doesn't work right with Windows 10 I can't help but think that whatever software it is it's doing things that it shouldn't be doing, perhaps hooking into the kernel in ways that might be seen as insecure or could cause potential system instability. There are established APIs to hook into the system for a reason, use them and you'll generally have no issues. If you venture out on your own and hook into the kernel with undocumented APIs then expect problems to come up. We've seen that before with updates breaking antivirus software.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 6, 2019)

Mr.Scott said:


>


HAHAHA! Nice!



trparky said:


> What security software?


It's encryption software. Not sure it's compatible with 1903 so I'm going to backtrack to 1809 and try it out.


----------



## trparky (Sep 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's encryption software.


What encryption software? VPN? File encryption? If it's a VPN I have to wonder why; OpenVPN works just fine with Windows 10.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 6, 2019)

trparky said:


> File encryption?


This, I'm being deliberately vague.


----------



## trparky (Sep 6, 2019)

Really. As a programmer myself (smalltime, that is), I know that if you follow and use standard file I/O operations and APIs you shouldn't be having any issues. And as for the encryption libraries itself, well... that kind of stuff should *definitely* be left up to people who know how to do encryption right. The first rule of writing your own encryption code is... *DON'T*! 

There's a reason why AES exists. It's been beaten on for years and survived the trial by fire. 2048-bit AES encryption is known to be damn near bulletproof. It's said that it would take the age of the universe and then some to crack AES provided that it has a strong enough key.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 7, 2019)

trparky said:


> Really. As a programmer myself (smalltime, that is), I know that if you follow and use standard file I/O operations and APIs you shouldn't be having any issues. And as for the encryption libraries itself, well... that kind of stuff should *definitely* be left up to people who know how to do encryption right. The first rule of writing your own encryption code is... *DON'T*!
> 
> There's a reason why AES exists. It's been beaten on for years and survived the trial by fire. 2048-bit AES encryption is known to be damn near bulletproof. It's said that it would take the age of the universe and then some to crack AES provided that it has a strong enough key.


You're making assumptions. Stop doing that.


----------



## trparky (Sep 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're making assumptions. Stop doing that.


I'm not assuming anything, I'm just stating facts here. There are established I/O APIs for a reason, use them and you shouldn't have any issues. Yes, there are file system shim drivers that do this kind of work as well but any time you start playing at that level of the OS you can run into issues.

There's an old programmer phrase that comes to mind... If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kernel. Kernel-level programming is not for the faint of heart, one screw up there and yeah... you'll be looking at a BSOD really quickly. Kernel programming might as well be black magic, cast your spell wrong and bad things happen.

There's a reason why Linus Torvalds can be such an asshole when it comes to the quality of code contributed to the Linux kernel source tree, he doesn't want bad shit to happen.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 7, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> zomg telemetry nuts...



Hey!  I thought we were friends! 



biffzinker said:


> If it's really bad then Microsoft will push out a patch.



Yes, for perhaps first year.  That's all I'd count on, and honestly, I'd avoid "horrible exploit" being the criteria at which you draw the line on security bugs.



trparky said:


> I'm not assuming anything, I'm just stating facts here.



Well, upcoming quantum computers don't care.  But besides that, I prefer Whirlpool, AES backdoor rumors and their insistence on certain salts has always bugged me.

That being said, you are right.  Never make your own encryption unless you really are sone kind of math phd.  Horrible idea.


----------



## trparky (Sep 7, 2019)

Unless someone shows some concrete evidence of a backdoor in AES I'm going to assume that it's just a conspiracy theory. Besides, the code for AES is out there for anyone to read and review.  Considering how many years it's been available to be read and studied, you'd think that someone would have found something by now. You can't hide something when it's open source. If someone sneaks something in it's eventually going to be found.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 7, 2019)

trparky said:


> I'm not assuming anything, I'm just stating facts here. There are established I/O APIs for a reason, use them and you shouldn't have any issues.


Yes, you are. That's not the problem I'm having.


trparky said:


> There's an old programmer phrase that comes to mind... If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kernel. Kernel-level programming is not for the faint of heart, one screw up there and yeah... you'll be looking at a BSOD really quickly. Kernel programming might as well be black magic, cast your spell wrong and bad things happen.


Neither is this.


trparky said:


> Unless someone shows some concrete evidence of a backdoor in AES I'm going to assume that it's just a conspiracy theory. Besides, the code for AES is out there for anyone to read and review.  Considering how many years it's been available to be read and studied, you'd think that someone would have found something by now. You can't hide something when it's open source. If someone sneaks something in it's eventually going to be found.


This is true though. AES has no known backdoors and is very unlikely to.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 8, 2019)

trparky said:


> Unless someone shows some concrete evidence of a backdoor in AES I'm going to assume that it's just a conspiracy theory.



It IS a conspiracy theory.  But a better founded one than most considering insisting on using the same salts is weird and exactly the kind of way a mathamatical weakness could be hidden.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 8, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> It IS a conspiracy theory. But a better founded one than most considering insisting on using the same salts is weird and exactly the kind of way a mathamatical weakness could be hidden.


That may sound like a weakness, or seem like one, but it isn't. The way the numbers crunch, the results are astronomically complex and no computer on Earth, even quantum models, can crack that encryption while the Sun still has hydrogen to fuse. In fact, it would literally take the sum total of all computing power currently on the planet over 1 trillion years to brute force such.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 9, 2019)

That's assuming of course, there is not a mathamatical shortcut hidden we are unaware of.

I'm not saying it's probable.  I'm saying it's vaguely possible (if unlikely), and one less reason to trust AES over competing solutions.  Not that any of them are bad.  Personally, back when I cared with crypto wallets vaguely worth stealing, I used a cascade of AES-Twofish-serpent via Veracrypt for my wallet.  But that was probably complete overkill ( had $2000 at my peak).


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> That's assuming of course, there is not a mathamatical shortcut hidden we are unaware of.


There isn't. This is real life, Sneakers was just a movie. There is no spiffy code breaker that will magically crack open the encryption.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 9, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> There isn't. This is real life, Sneakers was just a movie. There is no spiffy code breaker that will magically crack open the encryption.



Snowden suggested there is.  As such, I can't completely discount the idea that those prelaid salts have a mathmatically weakeness-inducing motivation.

Likewise, there is absolutely no way in hell anyone is going to prove it either.  Which makes it rather academic anyways, as if the governments after you, you're toast anyhow. 



lexluthermiester said:


> Sneakers was just a movie



And a candy bar.  Mars is also a planet.  Your point?

PS:  I actually did not know it was a movie... lol.  And wait, it's snickers isn't it?  Oh well...  it sounded funny.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Snowden suggested there is.


The problem is, since he said that(and let's face facts, it's been a number of years) the code has been checked, rechecked, checked again and then checked a few more times just for good measure. The open source community would have cried foul by now if it were true. Additionally, it has evolved since then. AES is secure, currently.


R-T-B said:


> As such, I can't completely discount the idea that those prelaid salts have a mathematically weakness-inducing motivation.


Again, because of the way the encryption works, the salt hashes could be made a fixed, known value & made public and it still wouldn't matter as the values generated will still be sufficiently complex as to render them unbreakable. As it is, all salt hashes are generated on a per-use basis. In the case of the encyption found in browser use, the salts are generated based on a session ID, which is a 128bit number. Even the US government can not crack it. Man-in-the-middle attacks no longer work in modern browsers, especially those that are PROPERLY configured.


R-T-B said:


> And a candy bar. Mars is also a planet. Your point?
> 
> PS: I actually did not know it was a movie... lol. And wait, it's snickers isn't it? Oh well... it sounded funny.


 Oh dear, we need to get you in the know;








						Sneakers (1992) - IMDb
					

Sneakers: Directed by Phil Alden Robinson. With Jo Marr, Gary Hershberger, Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier. A security pro finds his past coming back to haunt him, when he and his unique team are tasked with retrieving a particularly important item.




					www.imdb.com
				











It's an older but still oddly relevant movie. Trust me, we've interacted enough to confidently say you'll enjoy it! You've been missing out.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2019)

edit nm I found the issue

also,

Is there any downside to just using WSUS Offline Updates for a clean install of Win 7 and leaving updates off in windows settings?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 9, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Is there any downside to just using WSUS Offline Updates for a clean install of Win 7 and leaving updates off in windows settings?


None that I can think of.


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## R-T-B (Sep 9, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Additionally, it has evolved since then.



Not to my knowledge it hasn't...  Officicial Implementation white papers are the same ones as ever.

Implementations have evolved, but, that's different really.

Other than that little pick, basically on the same page as you.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Implementations have evolved, but, that's different really.


That's what I meant.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> Uh... any recommendations?


Bitdefender is my recommendation, or keep using Defender.


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## Kissamies (Sep 18, 2019)

Been using Windows 10 Pro since its release date, so no drama here. My HTPC can still run Win7, not connected to the Internet 24/7.


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## ManGupta (Sep 20, 2019)

https://youtu.be/eJuvKn5j_kE


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2019)

ManGupta said:


>


That video was complete crap! No insult to you of course.


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## birdie (Dec 31, 2019)

As a Zen 2 user I had no option of using Windows 7 anyways (the hack which allows to use updates on unsupported CPUs for some reasons kinda didn't work for me), so it's Windows 10 LTSC for me + OpenShell + close to 10 GPO changes + several services disabled (telemetry, superfetch) + three dozen PC settings changes and it's almost good.

I still absolutely hate how it looks, behaves and that I can't get Windows 7 UI back.

BTW, Windows 10 users may want to delete the entire *C:\Windows\servicing\LCU\* directory which Windows 10 fails to clean up and which is a byproduct of updates installation.

I've discovered over a dozen other directories where Windows shlts but at least they are not huge. You can find them by this mask *.etl


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## delshay (Dec 31, 2019)

I have top-of-the-line protection from Norton (very expensive) which I have had for more than 10 years. Will this be enough to protect win 7?


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## birdie (Dec 31, 2019)

delshay said:


> I have top-of-the-line protection from Norton (very expensive) which I have had for more than 10 years. Will this be enough to protect win 7?



So, here's the deal. An OS is not just the applications that you run.

No AV will protect your against:

Vulnerabilities in core OS libraries/DLLs, e.g. image/documents parsers which means if you open an image from a hacker using a built-in Windows viewer, the hacker may get full access to your PC in spite of you running an AV. There are many other types of files which Windows handles and you don't even think about that: video containers (avi, mp4, mkv, etc), audio files (wav, mp3, wma, aac, etc.), documents (e.g. zip files). Even when you don't open them, Windows Explorer still might have some handlers to show information about them. And it's not just about files on your disks, it's goes further to even game assets (3D textures) or fonts (browsers download them and parse them).
If you have any core Windows network services listening (e.g. Windows File sharing) and if you have a hacker on your network (not necessarily a hacker - it might be your friend with his p0wned Android phone), you might get hacked.
Sooner or later web browsers and AV will stop being released/updated. Nowadays in Windows XP you cannot run neither modern up to date Chrome, nor Firefox. Most if not all current AVs also can't be installed in XP.
Also news Windows components will soon become incompatible (sometimes it's not even real incompatibility - just certain checks not to run in it) with Windows 7, e.g. new versions of .Net.


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## Frick (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> So, here's the deal. An OS is not just the applications that you run.
> 
> No AV will protect your against:
> 
> ...



It also doesn't protect againstsomeone calling and asking you to do stuff "because Windows somethingsomething".

Also I have a hard time with the term "Norton top-of-the-line". Flashback from MS support days when a large number of issues was resolved with simply removing Norton, and other AVS, but Norton was definitely the biggest troublemaker.


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## Bones (Dec 31, 2019)

With year's end upon us I took the time to clearly state how this affects me.
I'm not gonna worry about it.


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## delshay (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> So, here's the deal. An OS is not just the applications that you run.
> 
> No AV will protect your against:
> 
> ...



Well I have never had a virus since using Norton, at lease not that I know of. I don't go to strange websites, I always go to trusted well known common websites & I always do downloads from the original source .


Frick said:


> It also doesn't protect againstsomeone calling and asking you to do stuff "because Windows somethingsomething".
> 
> Also I have a hard time with the term "Norton top-of-the-line". Flashback from MS support days when a large number of issues was resolved with simply removing Norton, and other AVS, but Norton was definitely the biggest troublemaker.



It was Norton top product when I started many years ago. It cost a lot per year, see top left hand corner.


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## birdie (Dec 31, 2019)

You clearly didn't understand a word I said.

Norton is not a panacea. It might be if you're an average user who visits a couple of websites and doesn't do more than this. But in this case Windows Defender will do the job for you completely for free and without any hassles.

If someone decided to target your specificially, you'd be powned and stay none the wiser.


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## delshay (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> You clearly didn't understand a word I said.
> 
> Norton is not a panacea. It might be if you're an average user who visits a couple of websites and doesn't do more than this. But in this case Windows Defender will do the job for you completely for free and without any hassles.
> 
> If someone decided to target your specificially, you'd be powned and stay none the wiser.



I do understand what you are saying "line by line". You have pointed out what looks like most if not all the venerability. I'v never had any problems whatsoever in the ten years plus i'v been with Norton. What you are saying is, this is certain to change as there will be no more security updates. 
This holds true & nothing can change that unless somehow user(s) can get hold of the security updates.

Windows defender is disabled by default here by the Norton protection software as both can not run at the same time. 

A few years back around two years ago British warship computer got hacked as it was still using win XP.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> So, here's the deal. An OS is not just the applications that you run.


True.


birdie said:


> No AV will protect your against:


Not true, and I'll take them one at a time.


birdie said:


> Vulnerabilities in core OS libraries/DLLs, e.g. image/documents parsers which means if you open an image from a hacker using a built-in Windows viewer, the hacker may get full access to your PC in spite of you running an AV. There are many other types of files which Windows handles and you don't even think about that: video containers (avi, mp4, mkv, etc), audio files (wav, mp3, wma, aac, etc.), documents (e.g. zip files). Even when you don't open them, Windows Explorer still might have some handlers to show information about them. And it's not just about files on your disks, it's goes further to even game assets (3D textures) or fonts (browsers download them and parse them).


Incorrect. Most AV suites scan for and detect most known vulnerabilities.


birdie said:


> If you have any core Windows network services listening (e.g. Windows File sharing) and if you have a hacker on your network (not necessarily a hacker - it might be your friend with his p0wned Android phone), you might get hacked.


That solution is simple, either disable said services or use a firewall to deny them access to network connections.


birdie said:


> Sooner or later web browsers and AV will stop being released/updated. Nowadays in Windows XP you cannot run neither modern up to date Chrome, nor Firefox. Most if not all current AVs also can't be installed in XP.


This one can not be avoided. However, browsers and other programs supported XP until 2017/2018. Some still do. Similar extended support outside of Microsoft can be expected with Windows 7, especially with 7's continued popularity and the public's resistance to let go of it.

Regardless of the nay-saying, like XP, 7 can and will continue to be securable if important precautions are observed.


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## delshay (Dec 31, 2019)

lexluthermiester

I use Microsoft Edge as my default browser, but there's also AMD browser built into the Radeon software. It's just a matter how long their are maintained, which will cease at some point.


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## birdie (Dec 31, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Incorrect. Most AV suites scan for and detect most known vulnerabilities.



God damn it. Install Windows 7 SP1 without any updates on top of it and tell me how many vulnerabilities your favourite AV will report. It's not like a lot of them even have this feature built-in.

I'll give you a hint. That will be a big fat zero. I'm a fuqing security engineer among all other things that I do. There are AV which will tell you you're missing this and that update but it's not because they know which DLLs are indeed vulnerable and what an attack vector is, it's because they just check a DLL version/date. That's fuqing it.

*Now, here's the biggest fuqing issue: when you're past a support cut-off date, how an AV is supposed to know which DLLs are vulnerable if Microsoft no longer releases any updates at all?*



lexluthermiester said:


> That solution is simple, either disable said services or use a firewall to deny them access to network connections.



God damn it. Some people have Windows File Sharing enabled because they absolutely need it. Almost all of them also have a home WiFi router and have their IP addresses assigned randomly which means you cannot firewall *local* devices (unless you filter by MAC address which Windows firewall cannot do), which means an intruder on your WiFi network, and it may be your pal who uses your WiFi connection and his phone is infected, becomes a threat.

WTF is wrong with you people? When you're trying to argue at least become a little bit more educated.


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 31, 2019)

MS will continue W7 ESU.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> God damn it.


Calm down.


birdie said:


> Install Windows 7 SP1 *without any updates* on top of it and tell me how many vulnerabilities your favourite AV will report. I'll give you a hint. That will be a *BIG FAT ZERO*.


Perhaps you need to experience a better AV suite.


birdie said:


> I'm a fuqing security engineer among all other things that I do.


Good for you. Your experience doesn't mean you know everything, nor does it mean that methods of securing older operating systems are unknown to others or are not possible. 


birdie said:


> Some people have Windows File Sharing enabled because they absolutely need it.


They'll have to learn to live without it, or learn to use a firewall properly.


birdie said:


> Almost all of them also have a home WiFi router and have their IP addresses assigned randomly which means you cannot firewall *local* devices (unless you filter by MAC address which Windows firewall cannot do)


Incorrect. You claim to be a security engineer and yet do not seem to understand that firewalls can be configured dynamically, whether hardware based through a router or software based through an OS/security suite. People are not limited to the inbuilt Windows Firewall. There are many well designed and competent third party firewalls available.


birdie said:


> WTF is wrong with you people? When you're trying to argue at least become a little bit more educated.


Again, calm down. The insults are not welcome.


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## Ahhzz (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> Rant...


Birdie, we appreciate all constructive input here, but you need to calm down, or your posting privileges will be curtailed. 

Everyone, keep this in mind, keep it civil, and keep it on topic. Thanks!


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## trparky (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> superfetch


Why disable Superfetch though?


> Superfetch shows up as “Service Host: Superfetch” in the Windows Task Manager. It sits quietly in the background, constantly analyzing RAM usage patterns and learning what kinds of apps you run most often. Over time, Superfetch marks these apps as “frequently used” and preloads them into RAM ahead of time.
> 
> The idea is that when you do want to run the app, it will launch much faster because it’s already preloaded in memory.


I don't know about you but that's a good thing.


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## birdie (Dec 31, 2019)

trparky said:


> Why disable Superfetch though?



Pretty useless for people with SSD disks. Also kinda useless for the spinning rust as well 'cause it creates background activity which still affects how fast your system boots.

In short, it was created to speed up the launch of applications but I've never seen anyone who's actually benefitted from it.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> Pretty useless for people with SSD disks.


This is true. Superfetch is not really all that effective for systems with SSD's. Even slower SSD's render bandwidth that makes for very speedy load times.


birdie said:


> Also kinda useless for the spinning rust as well 'cause it creates background activity which still affects how fast your system boots.


Your point is easy to understand here. Still, with mechanical HDD's superfetch can be of benefit in the long term.


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## birdie (Dec 31, 2019)

@lexluthermiester

You haven't addressed the biggest concern about Windows updates - no AV vendor can detect missing updates for an OS which doesn't receive them any longer. Last time I checked no vendor is able to scan DLLs directly to find the vulnerable binary code. And then, this code is near impossible to patch 'cause only Microsoft can do that or you end up disabling secure boot and windows files [signatures] protection/verification at which point you're basically naked in terms of security.

Also, you haven't addressed the fact that MAC addresses can be easily spoofed especially when you're on a wireless network where there are no physical ports you can assign them to, so that the attacker wouldn't be able to carry out such an attack and some people prefer passwordless file sharing.

In short, you either choose security or obscurity via trying to patch your holes and having the faith you haven't missed all the attack vectors an insecure/unsupported OS opens itself to.


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## trparky (Dec 31, 2019)

OK, I did not know that about Superfetch.


birdie said:


> no AV vendor can detect missing updates for an OS which doesn't receive them any longer


Uh... nope. I've seen Avast tell me about missing updates in the past. Hell, it even tells me that a select number of third-party programs (Firefox, 7Zip, VLC, IrfanView, etc) are outdated as well and even offers to download said update to programs and install them for me.

Oh and I'm sure that most of the major AV vendors will be pestering people to upgrade to Windows 10 as well.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 31, 2019)

birdie said:


> You haven't addressed the biggest concern about Windows updates - no AV vendor can detect missing updates for an OS which doesn't receive them any longer.


Not nessisarily. Most AV vendors have working knowledge of vulnerabilities discovered and can actively deduce how those issues will affect legacy OS's. Many did this with XP until the differences in code made such effort difficult or irrelevant.

For example, Avira was especially adept at protecting XP with unofficial signature updates up until 2017 when they ceased support for the OS entirely. In fact, they have publicly committed to support of 7 until 2022;
https://www.avira.com/en/support-product-lifecycle
That's just one vendor.
Comodo *still* has a free AV that works with XP, though it's functionality is limited, it still does a great job.
https://antivirus.comodo.com/security/free-antivirus-xp.html
Comodo's Personal Firewall also still has a version which runs on XP that is robust enough to protect that OS from the vast majority of threats one might encounter on the net.

I personally still run a machine with XP on it that I occasionally get on the net with. No virus attacks or hack attempts. It's one system in billions hidden behind two firewalls and I do not go to "IShouldNotBeHere.com" types of sites.

Microsoft's support for Windows 7 may soon end, but third party security suite support will likely continue for years to come and will continue to be effective. Windows 7, like XP, will not just fall to pieces overnight, or at all.



birdie said:


> Also, you haven't addressed the fact that MAC addresses can be easily spoofed especially when you're on a wireless network where there are no physical ports you can assign them to


True, but there are ways to block such problems. For example, transfer of files manually through external storage(USB drives) or isolation of devices to specific subnet addressing.



birdie said:


> In short, you either choose security or obscurity via trying to patch your holes and having the faith you haven't missed all the attack vectors an insecure/unsupported OS opens itself to.


The third option, I've already mentioned, is to hide the OS in question behind protective security measures and proper security methodologies.


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## ShrimpBrime (Dec 31, 2019)

I am enjoying W7. Will continue to do so.

When I see reports of big time attacks on W7, then perhaps I'll switch to W10. My PC is the only one in the house that's not W10.

Can buy W10 on fleebay for 10-20 dollars (u.s.) nice fresh install and done. You can run W10 so it's more so like W7. People are just being stupid and lazy. (no offense lol)

Get into the now if your worried about your 1 in a Billion chance of actually being "Hacked" in some proverbial way, the very second M$ drops support..... lol


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## biffzinker (Jan 1, 2020)

Here's an interesting app for moving to Windows 10. Somewhat similar in functionality to Shutup10.








						GitHub - builtbybel/debotnet:  Debotnet is a tiny portable tool for controlling Windows 10's many privacy-related settings and keep your personal data private.
					

Debotnet is a tiny portable tool for controlling Windows 10's many privacy-related settings and keep your personal data private. - GitHub - builtbybel/debotnet:  Debotnet is a tiny portabl...




					github.com


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## revin (Jan 1, 2020)

I'm just gonna keep using my favorite Modded W7x64 like I have since 7 came out, so I guess like all the before "Whatcha gonna Do"
Nothing


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## candle_86 (Jan 2, 2020)

Install Windows 7 as a retro rig os


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