# L4D2 Runs Faster on Linux than Windows



## btarunr (Aug 2, 2012)

Valve's hit online multiplayer game, Left 4 Dead 2, which was recently ported to Ubuntu along with the Steam client, is found to play faster on the platform than even Windows. The game generates higher frame-rates on Ubuntu with the new OpenGL renderer for Source engine than the Direct3D renderer it uses on Windows. 

The disclosure comes as part of Valve's ongoing efforts to optimize the Source engine to the Linux platform, following which, it plans to port more of its game franchises, such as Half Life, Counter Strike, Team Fortress, and Portal. The games will be available on Ubuntu with SteamPlay, allowing users who already own a license for the Windows or Mac OS X versions to simply download and play the game on Ubuntu, without any purchases.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Scatler (Aug 2, 2012)

"Using a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 graphics card with an Intel Core i7 3930K processor" uh why would you use high end hardware to test a game that is very light on the hardware? :<


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## Liquid Cool (Aug 2, 2012)

I don't see the surprise here.  



LC


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## HumanSmoke (Aug 2, 2012)

_



			Using a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 graphics card with an Intel Core i7 3930K processor, Windows 7 SP1 was running Left 4 Dead 2 with the Direct3D renderer at 270 FPS while under Linux with OpenGL they are now at 315 FPS! Using the OpenGL renderer on Windows isn't also quite as good with its average frame-rate at around 303 FPS.
		
Click to expand...

_
Could come in handy if I get a 315Hz screen- should be smooth as silk.

/would care more if it was a title less than 2.5 years old.


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## SIGSEGV (Aug 2, 2012)

very positive


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## reverze (Aug 2, 2012)

mac os version also uses opengl right? would be nice to see a comparisson on that.


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## BazookaJoe (Aug 2, 2012)

It's been a long known "thing" that the new windows versions are measurably slower than even previous windows'es.

Its sad really that My machine scores nearly 2000 points extra on 3Dmark06 in a WinXP boot than it does in Win7.

Newer versions of windows don't really give a shit if your perfectly standard sound card works or not anymore or where your GPU juice goes - its FAAR FAR FAR more important that your title bar is transparent so you can barely tell one window from the other, that your mouse has shadows, and that EVERYTHING slides around and wooshes in and out like you just bounced a bag of spoiled weed

But that's the world we live in, Fluff & Front End are way more important than form and function anymore, It needs to sparkle and twinkle and whirrrrrl and whizz to hold the 20 second attention span of the new ADD Justin Beiber generation, just look at that cross-eyed inbred hill-billy 8 year old child's interface "Metro" for gods sake. ITS A COMPUTER NOT A FUNKING CELL PHONE! 

Its as tho they just don't want us using computers at all anymore.

But that's off topic, so let's just not go there,  I guess WELL DONE to Valve - I can see Linux definitely becoming a more and more viable OS for me as I am one of those lost forgotten cave people who actually USE A COMPUTER AND RUN PROGRAMS AND WORK WITH FILES, and that is simply not what the future of Windows is about anymore apparently.

The ONLY thing that has really kept me away from Linux is its overall terrible gaming support track record, but this article just proves what a rapidly evolving landscape that is, and clearly I need to start paying closer attention.


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## DannibusX (Aug 2, 2012)

This is promising, indeed.  



HumanSmoke said:


> /would care more if it was a title less than 2.5 years old.



And it's one of their most popular games.  No worries, more will follow.

Edit:

Also.  Can't wait for the penguin hat.


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## Completely Bonkers (Aug 2, 2012)

BazookaJoe said:


> Its as tho they just don't want us using computers at all anymore.



They don't want consumers in control anymore. Walled garden is the new business model.  You can create a virtual wall by keeping the user stupid... or unempowered.


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## erocker (Aug 2, 2012)

I wonder how an openGL version of L4D2 would work on a Windows machine?


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## NC37 (Aug 2, 2012)

reverze said:


> mac os version also uses opengl right? would be nice to see a comparisson on that.



OSX OpenGL is always behind in performance. You can thank Jobs for insisting on only updating it for compatibility, not performance or features. Just because something has OpenGL doesn't mean it will be the same.

In fact, this should be a downright embarrassment to Apple if they'd even care about that. Shows just how crappy OpenGL in OSX is thanks to Apple.

Now the question is, how many bugs does it have in Linux GL. That was always an issue with Apple OpenGL games was the number of bugs they had. Mostly because of the incomplete or archaic Open GL drivers Apple would use. Linux OpenGL may be getting a buff if it isn't having to render everything that DX is.


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## DannibusX (Aug 2, 2012)

"Of course your propietary, DRM controlled and inherently evil software performs better on Linux." ~ Richard Stallman (tomorrow)


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## dj-electric (Aug 2, 2012)

If optimization done right, there's doubt that Linux runs things better. Is that really suprising anyone?
BTW about openGL, if image quality is your goal you can reach a very high one these days Erocker, much hugher than any PC game thesedays can supply.


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## seronx (Aug 2, 2012)

d3d9 vs god knows what version of opengl



Last time I checked the latest version of DirectX* is faster and provides better image quality than OpenGL.

d3d11.1/11


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## makwy2 (Aug 2, 2012)

Too bad you have to use Linux. This is like telling a runner,you can run 5% faster in one race if you agree to be in inconstant pain while not racing. Not worth it.

Ah well, I'll take the totally minor hit for the ease of use, huge application library, and compatibility that Windows 7 offers.


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## SIGSEGV (Aug 2, 2012)

makwy2 said:


> Too bad you have to use Linux. This is like telling a runner,you can run 5% faster in one race if you agree to be in inconstant pain while not racing. Not worth it.
> 
> Ah well, I'll take the totally minor hit for the ease of use, huge application library, and compatibility that Windows 7 offers.



thanks god, i never touch my windows except for gaming, if only many games already ported to linux environtment, i will #rm -rf /dev/windows_mnt/ 

that's why i said this is very positive


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## Melvis (Aug 2, 2012)

No surprise there


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## dj-electric (Aug 2, 2012)

seronx said:


> d3d9 vs god knows what version of opengl


4.2, new specs here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#OpenGL_4.2
and the comperison should be dx11
Problem?


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## Fluffmeister (Aug 2, 2012)

Personally I'm quite happy with 270FPS.


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## qubit (Aug 2, 2012)

erocker said:


> I wonder how an openGL version of L4D2 would work on a Windows machine?



I reckon it would perform similarly to the Linux version.

DirectX performance really is crap and has gotten worse since Vista, even with DX9 (and lower) games. I benched it myself a couple of years ago and posted about it on TPU. BazookaJoe a few posts back is quite right about the performance drop. I reckon it's the protected media path drm that's baked into Vista and later that does it, but I've never seen anything to support or negate this to say for sure.

It's developments like this that will hopefully give Microsoft a kick up the backside and make them improve. I can't wait for Linux gaming to take off and driver and apps support to improve. Then it's goodbye Windows and your f* product activation and high cost.


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## HossHuge (Aug 2, 2012)

What is the reason that more companies don't want to make games for the Linux platform.

It just makes sense to me.  Instead of spending money on an o/s the gamer has more money to spend on games.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 2, 2012)

They should try updating the Source engine for DirectX 11 then.  In terms of game engines, Source engine is ancient.  It isn't clear what OGL version they targeted on Linux but I bet it isn't 2.0/2.1 (equivilent of DirectX 9.0c).

12.2% gain also isn't thing to gawk at when you're already well over 100 fps.




HossHuge said:


> What is the reason that more companies don't want to make games for the Linux platform.


DirectX is easier.  Even The Sims 3 and Spore, which were ported to OGL on Mac, they still use DirectX on Windows.  Ubuntu and Apple address driver concerns with OGL on their OS.  Microsoft addresses driver concerns with DirectX.  You're more likely to get fewer issues using DirectX on Windows than using OpenGL.


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## RejZoR (Aug 2, 2012)

I find it strange that Source Engine hasn't evolved further. It sucks to wait for EP3 which will arrive god knows when to possibly get better graphics like we did with EP1 and EP2 which eventually migrated to all titles. DX9 used in L4D2 is really ancient despite the fact taht it doesn't look bad in general. But we all know DX11 could deliver better performance at exactly the same visuals or even better ones...


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## n-ster (Aug 2, 2012)

Yay Linux is less than 4% faster in probably the best of circumstances than Windows (303 vs 315 GPS)

I bet Steam/Valve are just twisting the numbers in their favor, they openly hated windows 8 And wanna be the first to concentrate on Linux gaming.

 I call clever marketing ploy on this one


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## FYFI13 (Aug 2, 2012)

erocker said:


> I wonder how an openGL version of L4D2 would work on a Windows machine?



On same test W7 + OpenGL squeezed out 303FPS, which is more then W7 + DX, but still less then Ubuntu + OpenGL.


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## FYFI13 (Aug 2, 2012)

makwy2 said:


> Too bad you have to use Linux. This is like telling a runner,you can run 5% faster in one race if you agree to be in inconstant pain while not racing. Not worth it.
> 
> Ah well, I'll take the totally minor hit for the ease of use, huge application library, and compatibility that Windows 7 offers.



Tell me the same in few years, once Microsoft drops Windows 7 support. Ballmer will destroy Microsoft, he's evil sent from Apple


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## Fourstaff (Aug 2, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> I find it strange that Source Engine hasn't evolved further.



Choosing between improving the engine's graphics/physics or optimising the engine, Valve chose the latter. With a good reason too, since that a mobile HD3000 can just about play Dota 2/TF2/HL2/Portal 2, and the newly enriched masses with poor systems can hop abroad with minimal investment to game hardware. The most commonly played games are not very hardware intensive, from Starcraft 2 to Moba games (LoL, Dota 2, etc) to Counter Strike. Battlefield and a few others stand out as counterexamples though.


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## Aquinus (Aug 2, 2012)

Well, you have to be careful when comparing Windows to Ubuntu (linux is too generic of a term for what we're talking about.) The Linux kernel has always been better at SMP scheduling than Windows has. How efficient that the Linux kernel is could result in better performance. The two systems were also developed with two very different principles, so even where Ubuntu might lack in OpenGL performance, drivers, or application support, you will be hard pressed to find situations where Windows would make a faster and more stable server than Ubuntu or even another linux distro.

So just keep in mind that OpenGL vs DirectX isn't the only thing that is going on here. There are differences in how the two systems work at a very low level that can impact performance and I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to scheduler efficiency. I would be interested to see how it would run with a bulldozer cpu on Linux vs Windows. If there is a sizable boost over the Intel setup, it could be attributed to how often Windows moves processes from one core to another, which takes time to do, time that your application isn't running.


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## Kreij (Aug 2, 2012)

From the Valve Linux blog ...



> This experience lead to the question: why does an OpenGL version of our game run faster than Direct3D on Windows 7? *It appears that it’s not related to multitasking overhead.* We have been doing some fairly close analysis and it comes down to a few additional microseconds overhead per batch in Direct3D which does not affect OpenGL on Windows. Now that we know the hardware is capable of more performance, we will go back and figure out how to mitigate this effect under Direct3D.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 2, 2012)

So they're going to investigate how to make it go faster on Direct3D, good on them.  I still wish they gave us version numbers.  Direct3D 9 has overhead not present in Direct3D 10 and 11.  L4D could probably benefit from tesselation which is also absent in Direct3D 9 and 10.


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## RejZoR (Aug 2, 2012)

Basically what they are saying is that old engine on Windows is rubbish and that newly written OpenGL one for Linux is so much better. And now they'll rewrite it for Windows. Probably.


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## Mistral (Aug 2, 2012)

Not that it's really needed with the framerates we already get, but if now they write a new DX rendered too and compare again, then it'll mean something.


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## Mussels (Aug 2, 2012)

BazookaJoe said:


> It's been a long known "thing" that the new windows versions are measurably slower than even previous windows'es.
> 
> *Its sad really that My machine scores nearly 2000 points extra on 3Dmark06 in a WinXP boot than it does in Win7.*



that alone asys it all. 3dmark 06.


its like complaining that your new windows 8 machine loads minesweeper too slow. the fact that a 5 year old benchmark runs slower on a new OS should mean nothing, because the benchmark was DESIGNED FOR THAT OS.


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## Prima.Vera (Aug 2, 2012)

OpenGL was ALWAYS faster than DirectX. That's why ALL professional design, rendering or animation software are using OpenGL.


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## Iciclebar (Aug 2, 2012)

Realistically this isn't so much about the "omg framerates!" for me as it is about barrier to entry.  LfD2 runs nicely on lower end hardware like an AMD e-350 and it also ran on my asus N10J (intel atom 230 w/ nvidia 9300gs if overclocked)

If you can squeeze more performance out of the same hardware what else can they make a gaming capable machine that previously was not thought of as such.


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## Steevo (Aug 2, 2012)

Annnnnnddddd the LOD with windows based driver optimizations unavailable in Linux?

reinvent the wheel, proclaim it as new. Sounds like Apple.


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 2, 2012)

Steevo said:


> Annnnnnddddd the LOD with windows based driver optimizations unavailable in Linux?
> 
> reinvent the wheel, proclaim it as new. Sounds like Apple.



That and its not like he hasnt been hyping Linux for a month or so now......Steambox promotion? Naaaaaaaaa.


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## Mescalamba (Aug 2, 2012)

So many idiots writing comments.

One of main reasons to use Windows is games. If this reason disappear, why would I use Windows?

Means you dont need to buy OS.. Just games. This is absolutely way to go and Im glad Valve at least starts to do something with it. Now it just needs others to join. If for example Blizzard-Activision joined it could have quite interesting impact as theres quite a bit of ppl playing their games.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 2, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> OpenGL was ALWAYS faster than DirectX. That's why ALL professional design, rendering or animation software are using OpenGL.


DirectX has a singular objective which is to run games.  OpenGL doesn't have a singular objective in mind so it is more flexible.




Mescalamba said:


> One of main reasons to use Windows is games. If this reason disappear, why would I use Windows?


Hardware support.


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## Mescalamba (Aug 2, 2012)

FordGT90Concept said:


> DirectX has a singular objective which is to run games.  OpenGL doesn't have a singular objective in mind so it is more flexible.
> 
> 
> 
> Hardware support.



Really? As far as I know there are drivers from both ATi and nVidia for some time. Only issue with HW I had was long time ago when I couldnt manage to get drivers for USB modem. Tho fact is that Win drivers werent better, always shutting down, connection problems etc. Solution was obviously to switch modem. Since then I can run Linux distro, MAC OS and Win 7 without problems.


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 2, 2012)

Mescalamba said:


> Really? As far as I know there are drivers from both ATi and nVidia for some time. Only issue with HW I had was long time ago when I couldnt manage to get drivers for USB modem. Tho fact is that Win drivers werent better, always shutting down, connection problems etc. Solution was obviously to switch modem. Since then I can run Linux distro, MAC OS and Win 7 without problems.



NVIDIA drivers suck for Linux. I mean they really, REALLY F#$KING SUCK.


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## VulkanBros (Aug 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> NVIDIA drivers suck for Linux. I mean they really, REALLY F#$KING SUCK.



You are right - that´s one of the reasons I stayed with ATI/AMD - not that they did´nt have issues tho!


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## Mussels (Aug 2, 2012)

its not just video cards. its networking, mice/keyboards, audio, and game controllers (such as steering wheels, gamepads, joysticks, etc)


and once people use it as a primary OS, then the printers, scanners, faxes, mobile phones, filthy apple products and so on all need to get working as well.


do i support linux? sure. but its not going to be a quick fix of "yay valve games work on linux" and its suddenly a viable OS for the masses.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 2, 2012)

They already ported the game to Mac OS X (the Direct3D to OpenGL conversion).  What they had to do to make the game work on Ubuntu was trivial compared to that.  The same goes for Steam.  Steam was probably actually harder to convert because of install/uninstall routines and file system differences.


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## Red_Machine (Aug 2, 2012)

FYFI13 said:


> Tell me the same in few years, once Microsoft drops Windows 7 support. Ballmer will destroy Microsoft, he's evil sent from Apple



Ballmer is evil sent from Apple?

HE HELPED BUILD THE DAMN COMPANY BEFORE APPLE RATED A BLIP ON THE RADAR!


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## johnnyfiive (Aug 2, 2012)

BazookaJoe said:


> It's been a long known "thing" that the new windows versions are measurably slower than even previous windows'es.
> 
> Its sad really that My machine scores nearly 2000 points extra on 3Dmark06 in a WinXP boot than it does in Win7.
> 
> ...




You're completely disregarding the *selling* points of an operating system. If form and function were the only thing that mattered in the operating system industry, we'd still be using Windows 3.1 because that did everything in its day perfectly fine. Point being, times are changing, GUIs get stale and consumers notice, so company's change the GUI and add features. They focus on whats important to consumers, not the nerdy gamer who only cares about frame rates and nothing else. If there wasn't Vista and Windows 7, we wouldn't be gaming in DX10 and DX11. You should be happy we have the aero GUI and snap windows, because along with that came DX10 and DX11. You mention you get more points in 3DMark in XP than you do in 7? Are you breaking 3DMark records for a living (lol)? Do you honestly like having to install misc. drivers after installing Windows XP (because XP doesn't have a generic driver)? The best thing about Windows 7 is that it works on basically anything. P4's can run 7, and it will install basically every driver on that archaic P4 board. 

Windows 7 is awesome. It's great that 3DMark 06 (06?!) scores higher in Windows XP, it should, its from 2006 whereas Windows 7 is from 2009.


The _only_ thing keeping you from Linux as your main OS is gaming? Really?
So you're saying your fine with changing shells, writing scripts/misc code, compiling, and making your own installs for basic applications? You'd rather do that then double click an executable or drag an icon to an applications container? (OSX). My point again, the general consumer. Linux savvy people may be fine using Linux for everything, but the general user isn't. They need MS Office, Open Office & Libre Office won't cut it. They need Visual Studio, they need XCode, they can't compile code in python or c++ and have no desire to. They want to sit down, run an installer, and click play. It's the same reason why console gaming is far surpassing PC gaming... the general consumer prefers the console. Why? It's dummy proof.
If you don't want a flashy GUI, want DX11+, and fast performance, you're answer is Windows 8. Like it or not, Windows 8 is where the future is for Windows. Many people hate it but really don't understand the purpose of it. It's not Windows 7, it doesn't have a Start menu, it WILL have Metro, and its Microsoft's future. Download the preview, give it a try, and in due time vendors will straggle along because they simply have to if they want to progress. Drivers will come, features will become useful, etc. 
L4D2 runs faster in linux than Windows, yeah, in crappy OpenGL. How about some screenshot comparisons between the two? How about we max all the graphic features in the Linux version and Windows version.... you'll see exactly why it runs faster in Linux, because it looks like garbage in comparison due to OpenGL limitations.

There is a HUGE reason why DirectX is the API developers choose to develop for. It's awesome and its native to Windows, which just happens to be *THE* best gaming OS.

When Steam starts releasing more games and stats showing a significant % of Linux gamers (on Steam), only then will we really see vendor support. Nvidia will chime in and hopefully ATI will finally release a driver for Linux that doesn't seem like its from 1998. Then, and only then, will we see an increase in Linux gaming. Gaming devs follow money, pc gaming money belongs to Windows. Following that is graphics vendors, along with timely driver updates to support these new upcoming games. When Linux gets enough gaming market share, we will see some big advances. Steam is certainly the pioneer, they see a future in it. I however don't. OpenGL (even if it is a new version), is not DirectX. Game devs make most popular titles for DirectX and there is plenty of reasons why, one of them being the SDK's. 

*BazookaJoe*: This isn't a direct bash on your post directly (or you directly), this is just my general thoughts on some of the points you brought up.

/end Thursday rant


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## Dent1 (Aug 2, 2012)

FYFI13 said:


> Tell me the same in few years, once Microsoft drops Windows 7 support. Ballmer will destroy Microsoft, he's evil sent from Apple



It's been 11 years since Windows XP it's still easier to use, has a  bigger application library, and has more application compatibility than Linux ever has.

...I think I'll take the 5% performance loss.


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## GSquadron (Aug 2, 2012)

You mean windows 8?


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## jihadjoe (Aug 2, 2012)

BazookaJoe said:


> Newer versions of windows don't really give a shit if your perfectly standard sound card works or not anymore or where your GPU juice goes - its FAAR FAR FAR more important that your title bar is transparent so you can barely tell one window from the other, that your mouse has shadows, and that EVERYTHING slides around and wooshes in and out like you just bounced a bag of spoiled weed



Bad news for you: The default Unity front-end for Ubuntu is also rather fluffy!


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## Aquinus (Aug 2, 2012)

Ubuntu doesn't restrict you to one window manager either. You don't have to use Unity.


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## tacosRcool (Aug 2, 2012)

who really cares after 240 fps?


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## Morgoth (Aug 2, 2012)

if valve released sdk source for linux ill jump to linux


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## Filiprino (Aug 2, 2012)

johnnyfiive said:


> The _only_ thing keeping you from Linux as your main OS is gaming? Really?
> So you're saying your fine with changing shells, writing scripts/misc code, compiling, and making your own installs for basic applications? You'd rather do that then double click an executable or drag an icon to an applications container? (OSX). My point again, the general consumer. Linux savvy people may be fine using Linux for everything, but the general user isn't. They need MS Office, Open Office & Libre Office won't cut it. They need Visual Studio, they need XCode, they can't compile code in python or c++ and have no desire to. They want to sit down, run an installer, and click play. It's the same reason why console gaming is far surpassing PC gaming... the general consumer prefers the console. Why? It's dummy proof.
> L4D2 runs faster in linux than Windows, yeah, in crappy OpenGL. How about some screenshot comparisons between the two? How about we max all the graphic features in the Linux version and Windows version.... you'll see exactly why it runs faster in Linux, because it looks like garbage in comparison due to OpenGL limitations.
> 
> There is a HUGE reason why DirectX is the API developers choose to develop for. It's awesome and its native to Windows, which just happens to be *THE* best gaming OS.



Calm down and return to your cave, please. The future out there is not for you, man from the past.


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 2, 2012)

Filiprino said:


> Calm down and return to your cave, please. The future out there is not for you, man from the past.



Linux is the future?  

Um you apparently are blind to market trends.


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## insane 360 (Aug 2, 2012)

johnnyfiive said:


> Windows 7 is awesome. It's great that 3DMark 06 (06?!) scores higher in Windows XP, it should, its from 2006 whereas Windows 7 is from 2009.
> 
> 
> The _only_ thing keeping you from Linux as your main OS is gaming? Really?
> ...



have you used ubuntu in the last 5 years?  you don't have to compile stuff, you can if you want to but their app store/repository is very easy to use, just search for what you want, either find a free one or pay for program, then click install, ubuntu does the rest.  did you know that ubuntu has a GUI, its not all line command anymore


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## Avelict (Aug 2, 2012)

I think a lot of people saw this migration coming, as slow as it is. I would gladly embrace Linux 100% if not for the lack of mainstream game support.

Sigh...have to wait, I will and just stay happy with RHEL for now.


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## semantics (Aug 2, 2012)

Anyone else have the thought, oh well that's nice, now get it to run that well on a range of graphics cards in opengl instead of just the one you tailored it to. This is just another case of trying to hype linux because they want to use android for steam box.


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## pantherx12 (Aug 2, 2012)

@Johnny latest version of opengl supports pretty advance features, you can get the same visual fidelity as directx.

Just Direct X is standard and obviously windows owns the majority pc market to it makes sense to use direct x.


( Latest opengl supports tessellation, advance dof etc all the features dx 11 has)


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## johnnyfiive (Aug 2, 2012)

Filiprino said:


> Calm down and return to your cave, please. The future out there is not for you, man from the past.





insane 360 said:


> have you used ubuntu in the last 5 years?  you don't have to compile stuff, you can if you want to but their app store/repository is very easy to use, just search for what you want, either find a free one or pay for program, then click install, ubuntu does the rest.  did you know that ubuntu has a GUI, its not all line command anymore



Both of you are completely missing the point of my post.

I've used Ubuntu plenty over the passed five years and its nothing new. The new versions of gnome, kde, and the stupid Unity are nothing to write home about. None of that means I'll have an easier time playing games within Ubuntu.... correct? It's up to Steam, Nvidia, and AMD to release games and drivers that make it a smooth gaming experience. No one wants to run executables in Wine just to be able to play a game within Linux, even "fully" supported Wine'd games still take a 25%+ performance hit because its basically being emulated. If you want to play games on Linux, you want FULL OpenGL support (Like id and epic games provided with Quake series, ET, Unreal 1/2/Tournament2k3-2k4). 

*@ Filiprino:* You must have confused my post with BazookaJoe's.
*@ insane 360:* I'm referring to all linux distributions in general, not just "user friendly" Ubuntu. There are many different flavors of linux that will run the Steam client (and games) the same way that Ubuntu can. Just because Ubuntu has a crap ton of software and repositories preloaded doesn't mean people are going to pick it over Arch (ESPECIALLY Arch), SuSE, Fedora, etc. Linux users like to customize and many hardcore uses don't even use Ubuntu, most hardcore users use Arch or Gentoo. So my point is still pretty valid.



pantherx12 said:


> @Johnny latest version of opengl supports pretty advance features, you can get the same visual fidelity as directx.
> 
> Just Direct X is standard and obviously windows owns the majority pc market to it makes sense to use direct x.
> 
> ...



Very true. But, no Valve games support tessellation and advance DoF, unless that is something they are going to re-do purely for OSX and Linux "ports".


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 2, 2012)

johnnyfiive said:


> Both of you are completely missing the point of my post.
> 
> *@ Filiprino:* You must have confused my post with BazookaJoe's.
> *@ insane 360:* I'm referring to all linux distributions in general, not just "user friendly" Ubuntu. There are many different flavors of linux that will run the Steam client (and games) the same way that Ubuntu can. Just because Ubuntu has a crap ton of software and repositories preloaded doesn't mean people are going to pick it over Arch (ESPECIALLY Arch), SuSE, Fedora, etc. Linux users like to customize and many hardcore uses don't even use Ubuntu, most hardcore users use Arch or Gentoo. So my point is still pretty valid.





Ive been using Linux Mint this week. However I ended up uninstalling it because I honestly had no idea what I was doing and it became a security risk to the rest of my network.


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## johnnyfiive (Aug 2, 2012)

Requote my post mailman


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 2, 2012)

johnnyfiive said:


> Requote my post mailman


Done. I enjoyed playing with Linux but I gotta say its not for the faint hearted. Also I noticed some very elitist attitudes on the Linux forums. Honestly I don't see Linux going mainstream because the "community" is the developer and the developer doesn't seem to like noobs. I mean a lot of the programs didn't even have proper names. I had to read the description to even know what it was, then I would find out the name would change once I installed it to something else I already had installed! I'm just a burnt out artist. I don't have the time to learn Klingon and I damn sure will never have the time to learn Linux.


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## johnnyfiive (Aug 2, 2012)

Ubuntu and Mint community forums are probably the most resourceful and kindest ones around.
Arch and Gentoo forums will basically laugh at you if you're a newb, but there are plenty of guides out there to get you in the right direction. So here is my MAIN point out of all this.

Say you install Ubuntu, and it doesn't recognize you're sound card (which is still a very common probably, even now). You can literally spend a full day trying to get your sound working. And Ubuntu users, don't you lie and say it was easy as pie every time you install Ubuntu on different computers, you're lying if you're in denial if you think its always a smooth process.

Yes, you can manipulate things and get a random driver to eventually work, but chances are it won't fully support the sound cards chipset, so you stuff in mono instead of stereo, or you have single channel audio, or 2.1 instead of 5.1 the list goes on. 

Now take Windows 7 or 8. You put the disc in, less than an hour later everything is working. That is fact. 

Windows = THE gaming OS.

Ubuntu/Linux in general = For hardcore computer folks who love to tinker.

That's my honest opinion and that is why I think it will be a very long time before there is a real Linux gaming movement. Steam is the pioneer in all of this, everyone else is going to keep focusing on the future of Windows and DirectX. Just put yourself in a gaming developers shoes. Are you really going to all the sudden start coding you games for OpenGL when there is tons of amazing DirectX based SDK's available for use? No. Are they really going to work with Nvidia and AMD to get specific driver updates for multi display updates and performance improvements, for OpenGL? No.

See, I have plenty of valid arguments.  I'm not trying to have a "Pro Windows or go home!" mentality, I'm just purely stating the hard proven facts. I would love Linux to thrive (along with OpenGL). But that kind of thing is going to take tons of time, effort, money, and implementation. It's a lonnnnnnng road.

*Edit:* I still would like to see a screenshot comparison of the linux version and windows version, everything maxed.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Aug 2, 2012)

johnnyfiive said:


> Ubuntu and Mint community forums are probably the most resourceful and kindest ones around.
> Arch and Gentoo forums will basically laugh at you if you're a newb, but there are plenty of guides out there to get you in the right direction. So here is my MAIN point out of all this.
> 
> Say you install Ubuntu, and it doesn't recognize you're sound card (which is still a very common probably, even now). You can literally spend a full day trying to get your sound working. And Ubuntu users, don't you lie and say it was easy as pie every time you install Ubuntu on different computers, you're lying if you're in denial if you think its always a smooth process.
> ...



They kindly told me to take a programing class.


----------



## johnnyfiive (Aug 2, 2012)

^^^ Hah! Here is a great place to start mailman, www.codeacademy.com (great site)


----------



## jihadjoe (Aug 2, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Ubuntu doesn't restrict you to one window manager either. You don't have to use Unity.



In the same way that Windows doesn't force you to use Aero. There's always been the option of using the basic theme and classic start menu.
(assuming we are arguing about fluff)


----------



## Widjaja (Aug 2, 2012)

I expected this.
Less overhead.


----------



## Nordic (Aug 2, 2012)

Even if I stayed on windows, I am glad steam/games/etc are moving to linux, although slowly. I just like to have the option. In 5 years time, hopefully, there will be enough software, mostly games for me, to warrant a switch to linux. Certain linux distro's are already easy enough for my computer illiterate granmother could use them. Mint specifically.


----------



## deadmansclick (Aug 2, 2012)

semantics said:


> Anyone else have the thought, oh well that's nice, now get it to run that well on a range of graphics cards in opengl instead of just the one you tailored it to. This is just another case of trying to hype linux because they want to use android for steam box.



they wont be doing a steam box from what ive read www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/07/18/build-your-own-steam-box/1


----------



## Chicken Patty (Aug 3, 2012)

Okay, enough.  You want to discuss Linux or what not go for it by all means, but no need to call anybody anything.  Keep it clean.


----------



## n-ster (Aug 3, 2012)

Is Linux vs Windows our new Apple vs Microsoft/Google? Our old one was intel vs AMD and sometimes ATi vs NV... If you wanna debate, do it properly, not by calling names

Linux is far from the ease of use of OSX or Windows, and the mainstream isn't ready to have Linux as their main OS, and that is obvious. Guess why Apple is gaining market share? Ease of use. Do you think people will downgrade in that department for 4% faster performance? People pay a HUGE premium for the same performance for Apple products for the ease of use...


----------



## erocker (Aug 3, 2012)

Thread cleaned. Heed Chicken Patty's words.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 3, 2012)

tacosRcool said:


> who really cares after 240 fps?



who really cares after 60fps to be honest lol


----------



## Ravenas (Aug 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive been using Linux Mint this week. However I ended up uninstalling it because I honestly had no idea what I was doing and it became a security risk to the rest of my network.



Sounds like Windows 8, yet, you criticize everyone when they say this.


----------



## n-ster (Aug 3, 2012)

Ravenas said:


> Sounds like Windows 8, yet, you criticize everyone when they say this.



how?


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ravenas said:


> Sounds like Windows 8, yet, you criticize everyone when they say this.



Win8 is better then Linux. Windows in general is better then Linux. I don't care what anyone says about DirectX vs. OpenGL


----------



## DannibusX (Aug 3, 2012)

Valve does what Valve wants.

People have been asking Valve for Steam and Source on Linux for years.  Valve is catering to them while bashing Microsoft.  I'm of the opinion it would take a lot for Gabe Newell to bash Microsoft for anything, since he bacme a millionaire working there for 13 years.



nvidiaintelftw said:


> Win8 is better then Linux. Windows in general is better then Linux. I don't care what anyone says about DirectX vs. OpenGL



I wouldn't go so far as to say it's _better_ than Linux.  It's certainly more user friendly and supported better than Linux.


----------



## Widjaja (Aug 3, 2012)

tacosRcool said:


> who really cares after 240 fps?



I think the benefit is more to do with being able to play the games on lower end machines at higher frame rates with Linux rather than targeting high end machines which already get optimal frame rates in game.

Either way I am all for the progression towards making games run well on Linux.

I persoally couldn't care less how fancy my desktop graphics look, which in turn taxes my system gaming performance.
All I care about is the frame performance in game and what the graphics look like in game.


----------



## n-ster (Aug 3, 2012)

DannibusX said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say it's _better_ than Linux.  It's certainly more user friendly and supported better than Linux.



It is better than Linux for the average person... the average consumer

whether Linux is better than Windows for people like us is a whole other battle


----------



## TheGuruStud (Aug 3, 2012)

n-ster said:


> It is better than Linux for the average person... the average consumer
> 
> whether Linux is better than Windows for people like us is a whole other battle



Still incorrect, though.

It's easier for the average person to use. That has nothing to do with being better b/c windows is crap in every single area of measurement. Being able to lock nearly all of the market into your OS (thereby providing incredible support in terms of software) is the success. Familiarity of windows relates to ease of use, but has nothing to do with how it functions. It's simply the most widely used (important imo).

It's like comparing a high end car (big power) vs a FWD sedan. There's no contest that the high end car trumps the grocery getter, but in terms of ease of use (and say repair akin to configuration), the FWD wins.

The biggest difference and embarrassment (not only to microsoft but the consumers as well), is that you're paying for the FWD car while the high end car is free LMAO.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Aug 3, 2012)

TheGuruStud said:


> Still incorrect, though.
> 
> It's easier for the average person to use. That has nothing to do with being better b/c windows is crap in every single area of measurement. Being able to lock nearly all of the market into your OS (thereby providing incredible support in terms of software) is the success. Familiarity of windows relates to ease of use, but has nothing to do with how it functions. It's simply the most widely used (important imo).
> 
> ...



Its no where near as easy to use as Windows or OSX. Not even close.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 3, 2012)

TheGuruStud said:


> The biggest difference and embarrassment (not only to microsoft but the consumers as well), is that you're paying for the FWD car while the high end car is free LMAO.



flawed analogy. its more like a race car - yes, its faster. but its only faster because so much has been stripped out and removed.


----------



## hellrazor (Aug 3, 2012)

What's been stripped out?


----------



## Mussels (Aug 3, 2012)

hellrazor said:


> What's been stripped out?



almost everything.


yes, you say it can run OGL. great. cant run DX9/10/11 or 99% of existing games. driver support is very limited, you certainly wont get third party software for them (EG, you may find a printer driver - but it wont come with a program to let you measure your ink/toner levels)


linux is a barebones OS. thats its design. most people will choose a slower OS with more features, than a faster one that can take hours of learning/tweaking to get working right.

jesus, look at the hatred when new versions of windows come out - minor changes cause massive hate. and you're seriously expecting people to jump ship entirely?


----------



## Prima.Vera (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't call "minor" the removal of start button and classic desktop...


----------



## hellrazor (Aug 3, 2012)

Mussels said:


> almost everything.
> 
> 
> yes, you say it can run OGL. great. cant run DX9/10/11 or 99% of existing games.



I've never had any problems getting it to run DX games, hell I had Neverwinter Nights 2 running on it when it wouldn't run on Windows (it didn't get along with my video card). WINE for the win.



Mussels said:


> driver support is very limited, you certainly wont get third party software for them (EG, you may find a printer driver - but it wont come with a program to let you measure your ink/toner levels)



I wouldn't say driver support is "very limited", sure it's behind but it's perfectly usable - and I'm sure you could find something to measure your printer ink (you'd probably have to take a run through the repositories), I don't ever remember having that problem.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 3, 2012)

hellrazor said:


> I've never had any problems getting it to run DX games, hell I had Neverwinter Nights 2 running on it when it wouldn't run on Windows (it didn't get along with my video card). WINE for the win.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say driver support is "very limited", sure it's behind but it's perfectly usable - and I'm sure you could find something to measure your printer ink (you'd probably have to take a run through the repositories), I don't ever remember having that problem.



WINE is capped at SM2.0. old games work, nothing modern will.


----------



## FYFI13 (Aug 3, 2012)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Hardware support.


Linux supports a lot of hardware out of a box. My PC kept changing over the years and usually it worked on Linux without any need to install the drivers, which i can not say about Windows. Obviously, this would require an additional support from hardware manufacturers for some systems (mostly for printers and graphic cards), but everything is possible as Microsoft turns really bad way.


TheMailMan78 said:


> NVIDIA drivers suck for Linux. I mean they really, REALLY F#$KING SUCK.


May i ask how/why? If your graphics card is older then +-6 months, most likely it'll work out-of-box. Now i run Linux Mint and all i had to do after installing it was to run Update Manager. That was it (no additional driver downloads, nothing).


Red_Machine said:


> Ballmer is evil sent from Apple?
> HE HELPED BUILD THE DAMN COMPANY BEFORE APPLE RATED A BLIP ON THE RADAR!


Cheer up Steve  Even if you did something, now you're going really bad way. People never liked Windows Phone 7, now you do same to Windows. Win 8 isn't even released yet and people hates it already.


Dent1 said:


> It's been 11 years since Windows XP it's still easier to use, has a  bigger application library, and has more application compatibility than Linux ever has.
> ...I think I'll take the 5% performance loss.


Then be ready to take lost user interface, your freedom and game developers. BTW, i loved Windows XP, i like Windows 7 (which has some downsides), but Windows 8 is....


----------



## jigar2speed (Aug 3, 2012)

tacosRcool said:


> who really cares after 240 fps?



I stop caring after 120FPS... let alone 240


----------



## FYFI13 (Aug 3, 2012)

jigar2speed said:


> I stop caring after 120FPS... let alone 240


Man, it obviously makes no difference for particular game, it just shows that hardware resource-hungry games can perform better on Linux... A lot of people overclock their PC's to gain those extra 5%.


----------



## BazookaJoe (Aug 3, 2012)

Mussels said:


> that alone asys it all. 3dmark 06.
> 
> 
> its like complaining that your new windows 8 machine loads minesweeper too slow. the fact that a 5 year old benchmark runs slower on a new OS should mean nothing, because the benchmark was DESIGNED FOR THAT OS.



Very clever, until you find that the same results translate to newer benchmarks as well - which I'm SURE you have to be aware of Muss, it's common knowledge that since vista Windows DOES deliver less bang for you hardware buck than it used to, owing to a number of changes in how Direct(Whatever) is handled, changes which also made a lot of NEW things possible.

I just happened to use x06 as an example.

Windows7 has a GRAND number of massive improvements over older generations too - this is also a blatant fact - and *they are well worth the overall performance penalty* - but the fact that the bonuses are well worth it does NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to remove the fact that there *are very real losses*, that can be very easily measured and proven, both on GPU and CPU throughput.

This thread basically boils down to an issue of an OS doing the same thing on effectively thew same hardware more efficiently than another OS. 

That's all I was talking about.

I lie, I also spoke about how I hate metro... NOT WINDOWS 8, just metro the retarded interface - underneath that anyone with half a brain knows there has also been a lot of work done there - I just don't see why that SHIT metro interface cant simply be a selectable "Theme" where one can CHOSE to use a normal desktop if they pleased, or  weren't completely retarded.

I hate metro the INTERFACE... 

... not Windows 8 - the OS that runs underneath it.


----------



## FYFI13 (Aug 3, 2012)

*BazookaJoe*, i absolutely agree with your post and i feel like i should correct my previous post - i hate Metro UI, not Windows 8 itself. Ofcourse, there are more things that i dislike (no start button, Stupidbar that came with Windows 7 and so on), but UI is the main one.


----------



## librin.so.1 (Aug 4, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> NVIDIA drivers suck for Linux. I mean they really, REALLY F#$KING SUCK.



That would mean Nvidia's Windows drivers also suck, as most of their (windows and linux driver) codebase is shared.
And also:



TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive been using Linux Mint this week. However I ended up uninstalling it because I honestly had no idea what I was doing [...]



Was it _Your_ opinion that these drivers suck, or did You read/hear that somewhere? 'Cause apparently, You didn't really had a chance to asses their "badness" on Linux. I mean, one week of "no idea what I am doing"? Oh, come on! ¬___¬



FordGT90Concept said:


> Hardware support.



I had more problems with hardware support on Win7 than on Linux (which was no problem at all). Three different network cards I tried using on Win7 have no drivers for it whatsoever. And that's just the start of the list. No such problems in linux x0ax0ax0a!!!



Mussels said:


> WINE is capped at SM2.0. old games work, nothing modern will.



At the current time, this is only partially true. And it is moving towards "Your statement is no longer true" at a reasonable pace. Wine [1] isn't standing still.



johnnyfiive said:


> L4D2 runs faster in linux than Windows, yeah, in crappy OpenGL. How about some screenshot comparisons between the two? How about we max all the graphic features in the Linux version and Windows version.... you'll see exactly why it runs faster in Linux, because it looks like garbage in comparison due to OpenGL limitations.



You, sir, seem to know very little about OGL and its capabilities.



johnnyfiive said:


> The _only_ thing keeping you from Linux as your main OS is gaming? Really?
> So you're saying your fine with changing shells, writing scripts/misc code, compiling, and making your own installs for basic applications?



I _prefer_ it. =P


*[1]* "Wine" is the correct capitalization.


----------



## Peter1986C (Aug 4, 2012)

BazookaJoe said:


> It's been a long known "thing" that the new windows versions are measurably slower than even previous windows'es.
> 
> Its sad really that My machine scores nearly 2000 points extra on 3Dmark06 in a WinXP boot than it does in Win7.
> 
> Newer versions of windows don't really give a shit if your perfectly standard sound card works or not anymore or where your GPU juice goes - its FAAR FAR FAR more important that your title bar is transparent so you can barely tell one window from the other, that your mouse has shadows, and that EVERYTHING slides around and wooshes in and out like you just bounced a bag of spoiled weed


I don't know how custumisable W8 is (interface wise) but Win 7 can be adapted well enough. The translucency of the task and title bars can be disabled by right clicking on the desktop and chosing for "adapt to preferences"or whatever it is called (go to colour settings).



Prima.Vera said:


> OpenGL was ALWAYS faster than DirectX. That's why ALL professional design, rendering or animation software are using OpenGL.





FordGT90Concept said:


> DirectX has a singular objective which is to run games.  OpenGL doesn't have a singular objective in mind so it is more flexible.


Like Ford said Direct3D is more aimed at games specifically, which helps in a game development perspective. OpenGL is not focussing that much on games, and I think that how graphics rendering in CAD etc. works differs from how it does in games.



TheMailMan78 said:


> NVIDIA drivers suck for Linux. I mean they really, REALLY F#$KING SUCK.



What drivers? Did you actually make sure you use the official nvidia drivers and not the Nouveau drivers? Last time i looked Mint (and Fedora) default to the Nouveau drivers.



Mussels said:


> its not just video cards. its networking, mice/keyboards, audio, and game controllers (such as steering wheels, gamepads, joysticks, etc) and once people use it as a primary OS, then the printers, scanners, faxes, mobile phones, filthy apple products and so on all need to get working as well.
> 
> do i support linux? sure. but its not going to be a quick fix of "yay valve games work on linux" and its suddenly a viable OS for the masses.



Even though I do agree, in part, to the hardware thing I have to disagree with the fact that you seem to think that "the masses" game on PCs. The "masses" game on consoles.



TheMailMan78 said:


> They kindly told me to take a programing class.


What was your issue and what forums were you at to ask about it? Clearly not TPU, even though we have got Linux and programming sections available.



DannibusX said:


> Valve does what Valve wants.
> 
> I wouldn't go so far as to say it's _better_ than Linux.  It's certainly more user friendly and supported better than Linux.



More user friendly? Perhaps to those strongly accustomed to Windows, not so much harder than Windows for those living in rising markets (after all, they often have not used one and the same OS for many years).


----------



## n-ster (Aug 4, 2012)

Chevalr1c said:


> Even though I do agree, in part, to the hardware thing I have to disagree with the fact that you seem to think that "the masses" game on PCs. The "masses" game on consoles.



In the PC gaming industry, the masses game on Windows. Besides, the masses actually do game on PC, do not forget farmville etc ARE PC games.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 4, 2012)

far more gaming happens on PC, than ever will on consoles. the consoles are just marketed more heavily, since theres greater profit in those systems.


----------



## pr0n Inspector (Aug 4, 2012)

OH NOES, A GAME WHEN RAN ON AN OS OTHER THAN MY PREFERRED OS IS FASTER THAN ON MY PREFERRED OS!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Aug 4, 2012)

Chevalr1c said:


> What drivers? Did you actually make sure you use the official nvidia drivers and not the Nouveau drivers? Last time i looked Mint (and Fedora) default to the Nouveau drivers.



I used the 295.59 drivers. I had to type a code in to even get them to install correctly.


----------



## Aquinus (Aug 4, 2012)

I find that both nVidia drivers and fglrx drivers are both a little finicky, but honestly, I've had similar results with both. I've never had a video card that wouldn't install drivers, but how well they ran was a whole other story. I tended to find issues supporting mobility chipsets more than anything else. Granted 95% of the time that I'm using Linux, there is a good bet that I'm not using any 3d acceleration at all, so on my personal laptop (with a Mobility Radeon HD 3650,) I tend to use radeon drivers and not fglrx.

It's nice to see some push to get games on Linux since it is really is a good platform (the kernel itself.) Think for a minute for all of you people who have an Android-based phone or tablet. You're running Linux right there. Got an iPhone or iPad? IOS has you running a flavor of BSD right there. So all in all, it's not like Linux is a bad platform, it's just a preference for those who tend to develop and not want to pay for an OS like Windows. I know that if I didn't play games, I would be running Linux as a host OS, and have Windows for little things that require Windows. Games and my wife are the only things that are keeping Windows on my machine (it is also setup to dual-boot, so best of both worlds anyways.)

Also honestly, fglrx on my tower detects crossfire in Linux. If only there was a half-decent game that could benefit from it.


----------



## BazookaJoe (Aug 4, 2012)

Mussels said:


> far more gaming happens on PC, than ever will on consoles. the consoles are just marketed more heavily, since there's greater profit in those systems.



Agreed indeed.

I'm very interested to see how this *OUYA* plays out though - I've never been a console fan - preferring the twitch response accuracy of a mouse, and the greater challenge presented by games without aim assist and the such, but this OUYA thinger does seem to be a very interesting endeavor...

*IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT AN OUYA IS, AND CARE ABOUT CONSOLE GAMING, READ THIS*

It's POTENTIAL to re-landscape the console battlefield is quite great - IF their expectations are anything to go by...


----------



## Kreij (Aug 4, 2012)

Mussels said:


> far more gaming happens on PC, than ever will on consoles. the consoles are just marketed more heavily, since theres greater profit in those systems.



Wut?!?
The sales of games on consoles is much higher than on PC based systems, even when a game is released on both platforms.
If more gaming (and thus gamers) where playing on a PC platform than consoles we would see the developers and publishers catering to the PC crowd.
That is simply not the case.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your statement that "more gaming happens on PC".


----------



## Mussels (Aug 5, 2012)

Kreij said:


> Wut?!?
> The sales of games on consoles is much higher than on PC based systems, even when a game is released on both platforms.
> If more gaming (and thus gamers) where playing on a PC platform than consoles we would see the developers and publishers catering to the PC crowd.
> That is simply not the case.
> ...



more can sell on a console in a given time period, but mostly because the one game is resold 5 times. and then it gets abandoned for the next console where it cant be played again - unlike PC, where people happily play 5-10 year old games.


----------



## Aquinus (Aug 5, 2012)

Mussels said:


> more can sell on a console in a given time period, but mostly because the one game is resold 5 times. and then it gets abandoned for the next console where it cant be played again - unlike PC, where people happily play 5-10 year old games.



PC gamers tend to be more dedicated to some games. Console gamers will ditch a game and move on to the next pretty regularly (at least I've found this with myself and some of my friends.) There really aren't many games for Xbox 360 that I really can get into and stick with. Geometry Wars 2 was one of the few that really captured my attention for an extended period of time. For PC, I'm still playing TF2. I played WoW for a good 6-years before giving up on that (not because of the game but for what Blizzard did to it as far as end-game content). Granted I don't play a whole lot of games anymore, but the ones I do, I play a lot.

I don't know, maybe I have this all wrong but I think a PC offers a more immersive experience than a console and some games you wouldn't otherwise see (like SC2 or Civ5.) So I think that is why I prefer a PC over a console for gaming.


----------



## Kreij (Aug 5, 2012)

Ahh ... I see your point now.
A console game is static. It sells in large volume, people play it, and then abandon it as they are done (not counting DLC).
PC games potentially have a much longer life span due to the fact that even if they do not release modding tools someone will eventually figure out how to mod it and give it more "life". Thus "more gaming on PCs" for a given game over time.

This does not equate to more income for the developers and publishers though.
This is why the mindset to not release modding tools and such, which will make the longevity of a PC game much greater, is kind of baffling. Even if the developers cannot devote resources to a game because they have moved on, it keeps the IP alive for future versions/expansions of the game.


----------



## Aquinus (Aug 5, 2012)

Kreij said:


> Ahh ... I see your point now.
> A console game is static. It sells in large volume, people play it, and then abandon it as they are done (not counting DLC).
> PC games potentially have a much longer life span due to the fact that even if they do not release modding tools someone will eventually figure out how to mod it and give it more "life". Thus "more gaming on PCs" for a given game over time.
> 
> ...



Then what you get is CoD and re-texturing of old maps that you've already played (and paid for). I can't tell you how pissed I was when I noticed that for the first time. I've also heard of instances where modders have made agreements with game companies to allow them to release a copy of the game with the mod free of charge because the game was so old and stopped making money a long time ago. I don't remember the name of it, but it was a role-play mod for Star Trek: Elite Force. Not the second one, but the first. Quake 3 engine. Anyways Raven Software agreed. I was pretty surprised to hear about it myself initially.


----------



## Peter1986C (Aug 5, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I used the 295.59 drivers. I had to type a code in to even get them to install correctly.



But why didn't you use the "install restricted drivers" tool that Mint (AFAIK) gives?


----------



## johnnyfiive (Aug 6, 2012)

Kreij said:


> Ahh ... I see your point now.
> *A console game is static. It sells in large volume, people play it, and then abandon it as they are done (not counting DLC)*.
> PC games potentially have a much longer life span due to the fact that even if they do not release modding tools someone will eventually figure out how to mod it and give it more "life". Thus "more gaming on PCs" for a given game over time.
> 
> ...



Another thing that should be taken into account is the resale factor on the console platform. 
People buy the new games, get bored of them and then trade them in. Then someone else buys the game for $40 while the first person spent $64+ (after tax). So that is nearly $100 in total sales for one game. On PC however, you buy a game, and thats it. Used game sales make up a huge market value in the console industry. Those rumors about the next gen consoles not allowing used games, if that were to become true, that would be really bad for the console market.

The PC gaming market is largely profitable in the subscription and DLC area. It completely explains why things like CoD Elite exists and why EA decided to make their own Steam-like platform, the stupid Origin.


----------



## Inceptor (Aug 6, 2012)

> Ah well, I'll take the totally minor hit for the ease of use, huge application library, and compatibility that Windows 7 offers.



1)I find this classic gamer statement so extremely ironic.
Take it out of context, put it into the mouth of a Mac user and you get:
"I'll take the hit in performance for ease of use, growing application library, and compatibility OS X offers."

2)I came across this sentiment on another site, and I think it's worth repeating:
Most gamers are not highly tech-literate (the small minority of people who post here, and at other 'enthusiast' sites* are not* 'most'); the most telling support for that is the continued success of companies that purposefully market prebuilt systems to 'gamers', with over the top, angular, transformer-esque aesthetic ads that are geared towards said juvenile 'gamers'.  Those people won't want to switch to Linux proper.  But, if Windows 8 is so amazingly horrible, it's very possible that a Linux powered box with simplistic UI could be marketed for the vast majority of simpleton users to play games on, as well as simple PC tasks.  Steam box anyone?  IIRC there's already a simplified gamer version of Linux out there.

3)Taking into account what I said in #2, it would be wrong to base an opinion on how much anyone has spent on Windows based games through Steam.  That's a personal problem, and not one that would really concern Valve.  If you've bought a game, they've got their cut of the money and so does the developer; they don't care _much_ after that, beyond making the occasional patch.

4)A slow migration to Linux is doable.  Valve can port their games and forge the path for the other developers to follow whenever they feel comfortable.  As soon as the selection of games becomes enticing, more and more users will make the move.  Leaving the brainless techtards gaming on Windows 8, and the stubborn, older users, who still have access to Win 7 gaming on Win 7.  I have no doubt something along these lines has occurred to the Valvians.

5)John Carmack's comments about how in his experience Linux users don't want to pay for games doesn't apply to a situation like that in #4.  If as a Linux user you have the choice of playing an open source game that doesn't have much support, that is buggy and constantly in development OR playing something a little more polished and ready for primetime, coded by professional game developers, and that everyone else is playing... well the choice is simple for most people.  Right now Linux users are not primarily gamers and make up a small percentage of the market.  If you have a large number of former PC users make the move to some flavour of Linux that is easier to use (like Ubuntu)... BAM!  The whole game marketing situation changes drastically.
It might not ultimately be something that the open source movement would like to see, as it might have some future commercial implications for Linux they would rebel against, but money flows where the user goes.


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