# Pure 12V PSU Standard, Named ATX12VO, Debuts Later This Year



## btarunr (Jan 23, 2020)

Back at CES, at the FSP booth, we spied an inconspicuous-looking PSU with a curious 10-pin connector in place of the 24-pin ATX. The FSP500-30AKB turned out to be the first public exhibit of a the pure 12-Volt PC power supply standard being pushed by Intel, which is called "ATX12VO," which abbreviates Advanced Technology eXtended 12-Volt Only. According to the specification, the PSU only puts out +12 V and 12 Vsb voltage domains, and does away with the 5 V, 5 Vsb, and 3.3 V domains. This greatly simplifies the design of PSUs, as PCs of today don't use too many power-hungry 5 V or 3.3 V devices (such as half-a-dozen mechanical hard drives). The PC will still need 5 V for interfaces such as USB, but VRM on the motherboard will be responsible for DC-to-DC switching of 12 V to those lower-voltage domains. It's also likely that the motherboard will now put out a handful SATA power connectors. 

Intel could debut ATX12VO within 2020 via its next-generation desktop platform, which features a 10-pin connector instead of 24-pin. It remains to be seen if the company could help the transition from current PSUs to the new standard by having its motherboard partners include a 24-pin to 10-pin adapter of some sort. In addition to the 10-pin connector, ATX12VO PSUs will put out two other purely-12 V connector types: 8-pin/4+4 pin EPS and 6+2 pin PCIe power. The EPS connector powers the CPU VRM, while the PCIe connector powers add-on cards, such as graphics cards. 4-pin Molex connectors could also be put out, but those will only feature 12 V pins (the 5 V pins will be absent). 





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## IceShroom (Jan 23, 2020)

Still only 2 12V line just like the current specs?? Then why bother to change it.


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## sutyi (Jan 23, 2020)

Whats the point of this from a non OEM point of view?


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## laszlo (Jan 23, 2020)

following the logic if current one is a 24 pin connector this new one is a 10 pin connector not 5 ...


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## agent_x007 (Jan 23, 2020)

So... they plan to power old devices that use 3,3V and 5V from motherboard directly when cross-compatible devices are a thing ?

Also, what about 5VSTB ?
Does it change to 12VSTB ?

Making simpler PSUs = making more complicated MBs.
This probably MAY work in OEM, but that would forced them to make seperate PSUs for Intel and Ryzen platforms, which isn't cost effective.
This idea is dead before even arriving at this point.


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## btarunr (Jan 23, 2020)

agent_x007 said:


> So... they plan to power old devices that use 3,3V and 5V from motherboard directly when cross-compatible devices are a thing ?
> 
> Also, what about 5VSTB ?
> Does it change to 12VSTB ?
> ...



TBH, ATX12VO isn't much different as a concept from SFF motherboards that have 2-pin DC jacks that run to external power-bricks.


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## JalleR (Jan 23, 2020)

funny the other day i was looking at a 750Watt Server PSU and thinking wow that is small for its output. and it was only 12V   sooo we could get psu's that are a lot smaller


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## hojnikb (Jan 23, 2020)

sutyi said:


> Whats the point of this from a non OEM point of view?



Reducing footprint and complexity of a PSU? It's actually great and a long overdue option for PCs.


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## londiste (Jan 23, 2020)

hojnikb said:


> Reducing footprint and complexity of a PSU? It's actually great and a long overdue option for PCs.


Also, 10-pin connector instead of the current 24-pin? Yes, please


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner tbh. With storage moving towards M.2, even things like SATA and Molex connectors aren't going to be widely used, apart from when people are using their PC's and keep done older parts.
It's also quite efficient to convert 12V DC to lower DC Voltages, especially compared to going from AC to DC. I've done some power conversion boards for a client and they were quite cheap to make and used very few components, yet can support quite high loads without producing much heat.


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## bobsled (Jan 23, 2020)

Sounds like a terrible idea. No thanks. I'd rather have a power supply doing the conversion as its sole job, because I trust the PSU manufacturer to not cut corners (as many mobo manufacturers do) and stand by their products with 7 year warranties.

10 pin vs 24 pin? Big whoop.


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## Mussels (Jan 23, 2020)

I can see this working out if the new mobos can be made to work with older PSU's via an adaptor, and the new PSU's can work in a modern case (i'm hoping they do ATX, but make them shorter)


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

bobsled said:


> Sounds like a terrible idea. No thanks. I'd rather have a power supply doing the conversion as its sole job, because I trust the PSU manufacturer to not cut corners (as many mobo manufacturers do) and stand by their products with 7 year warranties.
> 
> 10 pin vs 24 pin? Big whoop.



I guess you don't understand much about how power conversion works then.
The 5V and 3.3V conversion is done on a separate level inside the PSU these days, from the 12V rail. So doing it that inside the PSU, has no real advantage to doing it on the motherboard. Also, no real corners to be cut and as the motherboard already does a lot of other power conversion, such as 12V to 1.8V, this wouldn't be a breeze to do with pretty much the same components.
It would also either leave more room inside the PSU for better cooling, or allow for more compact PSUs. Also keep in mind that there will be 14 wires less in the cable, which makes for a much more flexible cable that is easier to route inside the case.
As an example, these are the 12V to 5V and 3.3V conversion boards in CM PSU review here. They help block airflow inside the PSU and take up a fair amount of space, yet contain comparatively few components. I should mention that CM actually does a quite good job in terms of the power conversion design here, compared to some cheaper PSUs which has a lot more components, as they use more analogue ways of converting the power.














						Cooler Master V Series 750 W Gold Review
					

The Cooler Master V750 Gold sports excellent transient response at +12V, which is what matters the most with real-life applications. However, it costs more than its competitors, and availability in the US market is restricted due to Trump's recent tariffs on all products made in China.




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Valantar (Jan 23, 2020)

About time. This is such a massive improvement it really should have happened a while ago. Smaller PSUs? Check. Higher efficiency? Check. Fewer cables to route? Check. Fewer cable losses from not running low voltage lines from the PSU? Check. Increased design flexibility? Check.

Converters to ensure backwards compatibility would be trivial to make (plug-in DC-DC PSUs already exist, all that would need to change is using the 12VSB for 5VSB), as would converters for forward compatibility as ATX PSUs have all the relevant voltages.


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## londiste (Jan 23, 2020)

Pretty sure that in case motherboard manufacturers fail to do power conversion job well there will be small power conversion boxes developed to take care of that problem


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## Gungar (Jan 23, 2020)

Valantar said:


> About time. This is such a massive improvement it really should have happened a while ago. Smaller PSUs? Check. Higher efficiency? Check. Fewer cables to route? Check. Fewer cable losses from not running low voltage lines from the PSU? Check. Increased design flexibility? Check.
> 
> Converters to ensure backwards compatibility would be trivial to make (plug-in DC-DC PSUs already exist, all that would need to change is using the 12VSB for 5VSB), as would converters for forward compatibility as ATX PSUs have all the relevant voltages.



Higher efficiency? xD you know that you just moved the problem on the motherboard right? you gain efficiency on the psu and you lose on the motherboard there is 0 changes to efficiency xD


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

londiste said:


> Pretty sure that in case motherboard manufacturers fail to do power conversion job well there will be small power conversion boxes developed to take care of that problem


How many would you like to order?  



Gungar said:


> Higher efficiency? xD you know that you just moved the problem on the motherboard right? you gain efficiency on the psu and you lose on the motherboard there is 0 changes to efficiency xD


That's not true though. The PSU is doing 5V and 3.3V conversion regardless, as it can't predict what's connected. On a motherboard, you could design it so that the 5V and 3.3V conversion only happens if something is connected, alternatively have a UEFI setting where you can disable it if you're not using it.
Not that this is going to add a huge efficiency improvement though, since as pointed out above, 5V and 3.3V is generally done from the 12V line these days and is at least 90% efficient if done properly.


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

londiste said:


> Pretty sure that in case motherboard manufacturers fail to do power conversion job well there will be small power conversion boxes developed to take care of that problem



On ideal each device has the PMIC already and accepts wide range of voltages. Or vice versa it must have an additional step down converter to gain lower noise or has to be on separate rail. Each device part, like USB, NIC etc will have the ability to really disable their part on HW level thus increase power efficiency.

Even USB power delivery has a wide voltage range and needs to be driven by a controller from higher voltage... 

The question lies with the 3.3V line and PCIe what devices even use it. AFAIK low current for init process, then it feeds only from 12V.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Jan 23, 2020)

as the saying goes; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Intel is getting desperate...


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## Chrispy_ (Jan 23, 2020)

This is a good thing, IMO.

Optical storage is dead for most people. 
Mechanical storage is dead for most people.
Molex 4-pin connectors are dead and should have been stamped into the dirt 15 years ago because they're awful.
Modular PSUs are so popular because it allows people to omit 3.3V and 5V cables altogether.

We are not quite there yet, but M.2 is already at price parity with 2.5" storage and should, in theory be cheaper to make. The only hurdle is that some consumers want more drives than motherboards provide M.2 slots for, but we're already seeing plenty of PCI-e cards with 2, 3, and 4 M.2 connectors on the market to serve this niche.


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## windwhirl (Jan 23, 2020)

Welp, better learn how to make my own home-made PSUs, then... I'm not planning on discarding my mecha drives anytime soon, if anything, I plan to add more. Ignore this outburst of sillyness.


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## Imsochobo (Jan 23, 2020)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> as the saying goes; if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Intel is getting desperate...



To this I just say.. idiot, this is something we should have done 10 years ago.
Cause it's broken, we have no use for it.
it's in the way, it increases cost etc.


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## ppn (Jan 23, 2020)

Why the 10 pin, just make it 4 pin for the power and standby voltage, all other 8 pin and 6+2.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

windwhirl said:


> Welp, better learn how to make my own home-made PSUs, then... I'm not planning on discarding my mecha drives anytime soon, if anything, I plan to add more.


This is hardly going to make mechanical drives defunct. However, it might lead to us seeing proper backplanes in more cases, which is how SATA should've been designed to work from the beginning anyhow. The wired SATA power cable is simply horrible imho.
Also, as pointed out, it's really easy to make simple step-down converters from 12V to 5V. 3.3V isn't used on 3.5" drives.
2.5" drives are the issue here if anything, as they rely on 5V and 3.3V.


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## laszlo (Jan 23, 2020)

ppn said:


> Why the 10 pin, just make it 4 pin for the power and standby voltage, all other 8 pin and 6+2.



to not overload the mobo entry point as i assume ;each 12 v rails most likely provide power for different part of mobo on separate circuits


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## Chrispy_ (Jan 23, 2020)

windwhirl said:


> Welp, better learn how to make my own home-made PSUs, then... I'm not planning on discarding my mecha drives anytime soon, if anything, I plan to add more.



/Facepalm.

Read the article. This isn't abandoning support for mechanical drives. It's simply changing the location of the 12V-to-5V conversion circuitry. If you buy a new 10-pin PSU and board with SATA ports, it will still have a way to power your SATA drives.

The new PSU standard provides the *option* of dropping 5V and 3.3V support to board manufacturers, whilst everyone can benefit from *smaller, simpler, cheaper, better* power supplies. It is 100% advantageous to everyone and has no downsides.



TheLostSwede said:


> This is hardly going to make mechanical drives defunct. However, it might lead to us seeing proper backplanes in more cases, which is how SATA should've been designed to work from the beginning anyhow. The wired SATA power cable is simply horrible imho.
> Also, as pointed out, it's really easy to make simple step-down converters from 12V to 5V. Also, most, if not all 3.5" drives, use 12V, not 5V.



Not to mention that portable mechanical drives powered solely by USB cables have outsold internal SATA-cable drives something like 10:1 for the last few years. USB drives are the overwhelming majority of mechanical drives bought by consumers and internal SATA cable drives are rapidly becoming a niche product. You can already buy dirt-cheap USB to SATA power cables on eBay, Amazon, AliExpress etc.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

Also, it might be worth keeping in mind that we're most likely looking at a transition period of at least 5-6 years for this to happen. Not sure how many of you are old enough to remember the AT standard. It took quite some time for everything to transition from that to ATX, it didn't happen over night, neither will this, so take a chill pill.



Chrispy_ said:


> Not to mention that portable mechanical drives powered solely by USB cables have outsold internal SATA-cable drives something like 10:1 for the last few years. USB drives are the overwhelming majority of mechanical drives bought by consumers and internal SATA cable drives are rapidly becoming a niche product. You can already buy dirt-cheap USB to SATA power cables on eBay, Amazon, AliExpress etc.


If nothing else, this shows how easy it is to make good 12V to 5V power converters, as the drive enclosures tend to come with 12V only power adapters. This means the other conversion is done by the small PCB that also contains the USB to SATA chip.


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## londiste (Jan 23, 2020)

If this takes off, pretty sure a lot of both motherboards and PSUs will support both simultaneously with simple adapters of one sort or another, at least during the transition period.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

ppn said:


> Why the 10 pin, just make it 4 pin for the power and standby voltage, all other 8 pin and 6+2.


Because you don't want to put too high Amperage through a single pin/wire. You can only put so much current through a certain thickness of materials, once you go beyond that, bad things are going to start happening. It's also getting to a point where it's dangerous if you touch it by accident and you could get electrocuted, even from a DC power source.
Splitting things up also allows higher current to reach the device, while keeping things safe per wire, although there's a trade-off here as well to make sure it's as efficient as possible. Then there's things like impedance that could reduce cause some other funny things to happen, such as Voltage reduction, which you don't want either.


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## Valantar (Jan 23, 2020)

londiste said:


> Pretty sure that in case motherboard manufacturers fail to do power conversion job well there will be small power conversion boxes developed to take care of that problem


Silverstone would make them. Silverstone makes everything.


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## iO (Jan 23, 2020)

Should have happened long time ago.

But 4.5 Watts per USB3 port and 8 Watts per M.2 slot add up pretty fast and I bet the MB manufactures hate the idea of putting a ton of additional VRMs on the boards.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 23, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> /Facepalm.
> 
> Read the article. This isn't abandoning support for mechanical drives. It's simply changing the location of the 12V-to-5V conversion circuitry. If you buy a new 10-pin PSU and board with SATA ports, it will still have a way to power your SATA drives.
> 
> ...



You know, because motherboard manufacturers always supply enough ports and connectors, they *NEVER* cheap out on connectors leading end users to needing expansion cards, no siree. I like the idea of a 10 pin connector, but lets not pretend that motherboard makers are going to supply enough connectors for all users without some enforced standard.



iO said:


> Should have happened long time ago.
> 
> But 4.5 Watts per USB3 port and 8 Watts per M.2 slot add up pretty fast and I bet the MB manufactures hate the idea of putting a ton of additional VRMs on the boards.


Yeah, where are mobo makers going to put all this stuff? The 5V and 3.3V boards in power supplies are reasonably large, and most full ATX boards dont have huge patches of unused space, let alone micro atx or mini itx boards. Where on earth are they going to put this stuff? Look how big the VRM for the CPU is, even at half that size, thats still a respectable amount of additional circuitry.


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Look how big the VRM for the CPU is, even at half that size, thats still a respectable amount of additional circuitry.



Why do we have already ITX 12V only offerings... how on earth laptop boards even work having +18V supply... gosh... is it a miracle? 

There are absolutely zero electrical problems. It all just about the habbit.


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## iO (Jan 23, 2020)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Yeah, where are mobo makers going to put all this stuff? The 5V and 3.3V boards in power supplies are reasonably large, and most full ATX boards dont have huge patches of unused space, let alone micro atx or mini itx boards. Where on earth are they going to put this stuff? Look how big the VRM for the CPU is, even at half that size, thats still a respectable amount of additional circuitry.


It's certainly doable but it won't be easy and therefore not cheap.
But I guess this has the same fate as the BTX standard: won't gain much traction outside the OEM space and will die eventually...


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

iO said:


> Should have happened long time ago.
> 
> But 4.5 Watts per USB3 port and 8 Watts per M.2 slot add up pretty fast and I bet the MB manufactures hate the idea of putting a ton of additional VRMs on the boards.


Just to show you what a modern 12V to 5V conversion circuit looks like. What you can't see is a pair of smoothing capacitors on the other side of the PCB.
This is something I've done for a client, very simple, very effective and it can do at least 5V/2A. That PCB is 60x40mm and it's just so it can accommodate enough connectors on the other side. Admittedly this would not be how a motherboard would be designed, as they'd use a more powerful setup that could power all the 5V outputs, but it's hardly as if this is going to be a major issue for the board makers, compared to doing the CPU VRM.








TheinsanegamerN said:


> Yeah, where are mobo makers going to put all this stuff? The 5V and 3.3V boards in power supplies are reasonably large, and most full ATX boards dont have huge patches of unused space, let alone micro atx or mini itx boards. Where on earth are they going to put this stuff? Look how big the VRM for the CPU is, even at half that size, thats still a respectable amount of additional circuitry.


See above, it's a non issue. Also, plenty of mini-ITX boards already in the market with 12V only, either via a barrel plug or a 2/4-pin connector.
As an example, see link below.








						GA-IMB310TN (rev. 1.0) Overview | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global
					

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...




					www.gigabyte.com
				






Ferrum Master said:


> Why do we have already ITX 12V only offerings... how on earth laptop boards even work having +18V supply... gosh... is it a miracle?
> 
> There are absolutely zero electrical problems. It all just about the habbit.


Actually, most modern notebooks are 19V  



iO said:


> It's certainly doable but it won't be easy and therefore not cheap.
> But I guess this has the same fate as the BTX standard: won't gain much traction outside the OEM space and will die eventually...


But it is cheap. The parts needed are few cents. I don't get it, why are so many people in this thread making this out to be something really complex, when it's not?
Another project, this is a pico-ITX board at 100x72mm with 12V input that can deliver 5V and 3.3V to the pin headers. How can such a tiny board do it when some people here claim there isn't space on a mini-ITX board?


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## londiste (Jan 23, 2020)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Yeah, where are mobo makers going to put all this stuff? The 5V and 3.3V boards in power supplies are reasonably large, and most full ATX boards dont have huge patches of unused space, let alone micro atx or mini itx boards. Where on earth are they going to put this stuff? Look how big the VRM for the CPU is, even at half that size, thats still a respectable amount of additional circuitry.


In the space that is left over from 10-pin connector being smaller than 24-pin one?
I am joking, but it isn't too far from the truth


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## windwhirl (Jan 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> However, it might lead to us seeing proper backplanes in more cases, which is how SATA should've been designed to work from the beginning anyhow. The wired SATA power cable is simply horrible imho.



You know what? Forget what I said, I'm all for it if it somehow solves my rat nest of SATA cables.


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## Valantar (Jan 23, 2020)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Look how big the VRM for the CPU is, even at half that size, thats still a respectable amount of additional circuitry.


...CPU VRMs deliver hundreds of amps. CPUs run at anywhere from 1V to 1.4V (-ish) while consuming ~50-300W. Motherboard VRMs are built so that they can at the very least support the highest end CPU for that platform at stock, meaning that for example any H310 or B350 motherboard VRM is built to deliver power to a 9900K. That means delivering its ~160W PL2 for short term power and ~95W PL1 for long term power without issue - and that applies to even the most lowly board, ignoring the massively overbuilt VRMs for high end overclocking. I don't remember what voltage a 9900K runs at under all-core load, but if we say 1.3V and 160W power consumption, that's 123 Amps. Now, you won't get a 123A 5V VRM in the same space as a 123A 1.3V VRM, but not far from it. And 3A per USB port is generous, meaning that a "half sized" VRM like what you describe could power ... somewhere above 30 USB ports. You can get away with _far_ smaller VRMs than even cheapo CPU VRMs if all you're doing is powering USB ports, in other words.

As for voltage converters, we shouldn't forget the existence of monolithic DC-DC converter blocks like this one from Murata. 5V4A output from 12V in a 9x10.5x5.5mm package. That's essentially the size of a CPU VRM inductor alone. Add it to the board and you can power at least a few USB ports. Sure, this one is expensive and relatively low power, but there are cheaper ones, and they definitely get cheaper if you're buying ten thousand a pop.

Nonetheless, people need to stop thinking this will make motherboards noticeably more expensive. It won't. The components needed are well known to manufacturers - they can even likely reuse CPU VRM components if they want to - compact and readily available. Also, comparing on-board component sizes to PSU component sizes is an invalid comparison, as PSUs are always overbuilt; they are built to cover a wide variety of hardware configurations, while an on-board supply would be tailored to the components on that board. Even looking at a lowly 500W unit like the most recent PSU review here on TPU, it supports 17A on its 5V rail and 18A on its 3.3V rail. Both of those are massively overkill for most modern usage scenarios, and could thus be downsized significantly if moved to the motherboard. A 500W PSU needs to be built to handle both a gaming setup with a fast CPU and GPU and a single SSD and a file server with a low-power CPU, no GPU and a heap of mechanical HDDs and SSDs, meaning they are built for a wide variety of different loads. With this standard we can reduce the overhead here and move towards more tailor-made solutions better suited to their intended use.



Gungar said:


> Higher efficiency? xD you know that you just moved the problem on the motherboard right? you gain efficiency on the psu and you lose on the motherboard there is 0 changes to efficiency xD


Not true. There are several ways in which this improves efficiency. None are dramatic improvements, but they all matter:

No cable losses transferring 3.3V and 5V from the PSU to the motherboard (and likely shorter cables for any devices needing power from the motherboard, like HDDs)
Simpler, cleaner PSU designs due to only producing a single output voltage (this is the biggest one by far)
Universal adoption of DC-DC conversion for lower voltages (doesn't apply to modern high-end PSUs that already do this, but many still don't)
Better sizing of DC-DC converters for the load in question, hitting efficiency sweet spots more easily
Proliferation of bespoke converters for power-hungry components (



londiste said:


> In the space that is left over from 10-pin connector being smaller than 24-pin one?
> I am joking, but it isn't too far from the truth


Definitely not far from the truth. Delivering a few amps for USB and SATA really doesn't require a lot of space.

Another pro for this, btw: moving to motherboards needing voltage converters for USB could easily lead to a proliferation of USB-PD support on the same boards - it's not that much more difficult building a 12V-to-5/9/12/15/20V system than a 12V-to-5V one.


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

Also it will leave more space in the PSU itself, better ventilation for smaller form factors SFX, where it matters.

Gosh... space? The whole backside of any motherboard is mostly deserted, with some caps under South bridge and CPU.


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## R-T-B (Jan 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner tbh. With storage moving towards M.2, even things like SATA and Molex connectors aren't going to be widely used, apart from when people are using their PC's and keep done older parts.
> It's also quite efficient to convert 12V DC to lower DC Voltages, especially compared to going from AC to DC. I've done some power conversion boards for a client and they were quite cheap to make and used very few components, yet can support quite high loads without producing much heat.



I agree it is overdue, but as most m.2 boards are running at 3.3v isn't that kind of a poor example?


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## iO (Jan 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> But it is cheap. The parts needed are few cents. I don't get it, why are so many people in this thread making this out to be something really complex, when it's not?
> Another project, this is a pico-ITX board at 100x72mm with 12V input that can deliver 5V and 3.3V to the pin headers. How can such a tiny board do it when some people here claim there isn't space on a mini-ITX board?


Fair enough for a SBC but what about an ATX sized board?
Let's say 8 USB ports on the IO and 4 internal each 900mA. Plus 7 PCIe slots with each 3A and two M.2s with 2.5A each. That's over 50 Watts for the 5V and 80 Watts for 3.3V supply.
Putting additional VRMs of that dimensions on an already feature packed PCB is tricky _and_ costly.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

The problem with USB these days is that with USB-C, at least some ports can (should?) be as much as 100W, but that's at 20V/5A. However, it's unlikely we'll see this on any desktop PC, but maybe these new power supplies will make 12V/5A more likely to appear than today.
However, long gone are the days of 500mA or 900mA USB connectors, as most boards deliver 1-2.4A per USB ports these days, simply because people expect to be able to charge their mobile devices from the ports on their PC.

@Valantar That Murata part is insanely expensive though, so that's not likely to find its way into regular PCs as yet. Also, high Amps on the minor rails is a way that the PSU makers have managed to "uprate" their PSUs for years, since it's the combine Wattage that's put on the box at the end of the day...


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

iO said:


> Putting additional VRMs of that dimensions on an already feature packed PCB is tricky _and_ costly.



Quite joking Dude   We are actually fed the with the lowest crap grade boards nowadays... tomato boards mostly... and paying great amount of money for them. It adds up NOTHING in design process. It is not a RF part where you design high frequency transmitter, this basically basic grade newbie task to add... copy paste in the PCB design program.

There are PMU's capable of delivering many amperes of current... multi rail, multiple regulation and safety, low noise.

Haven't you thought that we have now wall chargers with GaN? Tiny things with a primary for mains voltage pumping out 60W?? HELLOOO people? What is this?

It amuses me really...

I have a new argument. 

How about putting less RGB PWM drivers on the board, how we got place for them then?


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I agree it is overdue, but as most m.2 boards are running at 3.3v isn't that kind of a poor example?


It wasn't about M.2 as such, but the fact that new systems are likely to use fewer drives that require power cables from the PSU.



iO said:


> Fair enough for a SBC but what about an ATX sized board?
> Let's say 8 USB ports on the IO and 4 internal each 900mA. Plus 7 PCIe slots with each 3A and two M.2s with 2.5A each. That's over 50 Watts for the 5V and 80 Watts for 3.3V supply.
> Putting additional VRMs of that dimensions on an already feature packed PCB is tricky _and_ costly.


Why is there a difference? Again, see above, USB ports on most motherboard are no longer 900mA, as it's not enough for charging phones etc. with. 
Still, you're going from 12V, so it's not expensive or tricky.
This is a new part from TI that can do 40A and it's a 5x7mm chip. That means it can be placed pretty much anywhere on the motherboard. Yes, this part is a bit on the pricey side, but it was the first thing I found doing a quick search and I'm sure it's far from the only part like this.


			http://www.ti.com/product/TPS543C20A


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Yes, this part is a bit on the pricey side



Reel costs less than 5€ per unit... a 40A part... that is not pricey...





Dev board size


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## sutyi (Jan 23, 2020)

hojnikb said:


> Reducing footprint and complexity of a PSU? It's actually great and a long overdue option for PCs.



If you get a decent PSU you'll probably use it 5+ years. Probably swapping motherboards every 2-3 years.

You are suffling the same components from the PSU to the MB and ending up swapping them twice as fast.

Current decent PSU designs are already DC-2-DC. I would rather have all the filtering and protection in the PSU housing, instead of using my brand spanking new motherboard effectively as power distribution panel. You would also need a lot of digital short circuit protection and filtering added to the VRM of the motherboard, while also adding a lot of complexity to the PCB it self, so memory and PCIe traces have proper shielding.

Not sure if I'm ready to buy 200USD entry level motherboards cause they need to be manufactured on 8-10 layer PCBs...


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

Ferrum Master said:


> Haven't you thought that we have now wall chargers with GaN? Tiny things with a primary for mains voltage pumping out 60W?? HELLOOO people? What is this?


You just reminded me, I have a friend that works here.





						Exagan - Accelerate Power Transition
					

Accelerate transition of power electronics industry towards more efficient production and conversion systems to reduce CO2 emission, by enabling large scale GaN on Silicon power technology.




					www.exagan.com


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

sutyi said:


> Probably swapping motherboards every 2-3 years.



Why it you bother about protection etc... actually the solutions FURTHER away from mains give more safety, they are more safe and tailored to their task, as you can cherry pick them for the device it sits after? USB short cut protection is already there but actually driven by a dedicated power IC it will work faster and better giving more safety options.

Also you are in EU? 2 years of warranty... who cares if you change them anyways?



TheLostSwede said:


> You just reminded me, I have a friend that works here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's kinda a hot topic now... I have to take a shovel and take all my chargers to the bin because of that as they all had gone EOL.


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## sutyi (Jan 23, 2020)

Ferrum Master said:


> Why it you bother about protection etc... actually the solutions FURTHER away from mains give more safety, they are more safe and tailored to their task, as you can cherry pick them for the device it sits after? USB short cut protection is already there but actually driven by a dedicated power IC it will work faster and better giving more safety options.
> 
> Also you are in EU? 2 years of warranty... who cares if you change them anyways?
> 
> ...




We were talking footprint. Not warranty. If I buy the same components at twice the rate, I have twice the ecological footprint... makes sense? Or is my train of thought wrong over here?


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

sutyi said:


> We were talking footprint. Not warranty. If I buy the same components at twice the rate, I have twice the ecological footprint... makes sense? Or is my train of thought wrong over here?



They would be used anyways? Either in the PSU or on the board, with less wires, less plastic, same evil, isn't it? It is up to the manufacturer how fragmented it will be. One is sure... due to USB-PD it will be designed and receive independent power IC anyways... old ATX or the new one. The small rails? Some step down solution IC's are made in such amounts already, they are just idling there... there will be no change regards ecological footprint. Power consumption actually with proper gating, idle features should be lower.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 23, 2020)

sutyi said:


> We were talking footprint. Not warranty. If I buy the same components at twice the rate, I have twice the ecological footprint... makes sense? Or is my train of thought wrong over here?


Again, this is NOT going to happen over night. So in your case, you can most likely match the upgrade pattern you use to fit in a new PSU when it suits you.


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## Valantar (Jan 23, 2020)

iO said:


> Fair enough for a SBC but what about an ATX sized board?
> Let's say 8 USB ports on the IO and 4 internal each 900mA. Plus 7 PCIe slots with each 3A and two M.2s with 2.5A each. That's over 50 Watts for the 5V and 80 Watts for 3.3V supply.
> Putting additional VRMs of that dimensions on an already feature packed PCB is tricky _and_ costly.


Given that hardly any AICs these days use 3.3V there's no reason to spec out power delivery to deliver the maximum amount of power for each port like that. m.2 does need 3.3V, so that would need at least enough to populate all slots, but most PCIe cards will work just fine without the 3.3V rail there. The same goes for 5V, really - no need to spec for full utilization of every single port, as that's never going to happen in the real world.

A move to a pure 12V standard will also encourage AIC vendors to further embrace 12V input and on-board voltage conversion, which will again accelerate the long-awaited and too slow in coming demise of 3.3V.


TheLostSwede said:


> The problem with USB these days is that with USB-C, at least some ports can (should?) be as much as 100W, but that's at 20V/5A. However, it's unlikely we'll see this on any desktop PC, but maybe these new power supplies will make 12V/5A more likely to appear than today.
> However, long gone are the days of 500mA or 900mA USB connectors, as most boards deliver 1-2.4A per USB ports these days, simply because people expect to be able to charge their mobile devices from the ports on their PC.


That's the USB-PD charging standard, not the host device standard. Most (all?) host devices max out at 15W output, which is a relatively reasonable number (though it should be rather trivial for desktop ports to add a 12V3A mode to their current 5V3A mode). The USB-C/3.1G2 front panel connector is specced for 3A of power, so moving beyond that would require yet another standard before this has even seen any real adoption. That's a bad idea. But beyond that, we really don't need the ability to charge our laptops from our desktops. Sufficient power to run an external 3.5" HDD would be nice, though - but that can be done with 12V1-1.5A.


TheLostSwede said:


> @Valantar That Murata part is insanely expensive though, so that's not likely to find its way into regular PCs as yet. Also, high Amps on the minor rails is a way that the PSU makers have managed to "uprate" their PSUs for years, since it's the combine Wattage that's put on the box at the end of the day...


Very expensive, yes, but it was also the literal first result that showed up on Mouser. I'm sure there are cheaper options out there for someone actually looking.


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## iO (Jan 23, 2020)

Nvm. At the latest when DDR5 arrives there should be enough space on the PCB for any minor voltage rails as DDR5 has it's VRM moved on the module itself...


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## DeeJay1001 (Jan 23, 2020)

Pretty much all OEMs already do this but they use proprietary connectors. I have a dell 7020 from 2014 sitting here and it has proprietary keyed 8 pin connector in place of a 24 pin. 
Setting a standard for OEMs to adopt is a good thing.


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## londiste (Jan 23, 2020)

If someone didn't want to click to the source article and look for the link there, here is the Design Guide:


			https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/single-rail-power-supply-platform-atx12vo-design-guide.pdf


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

Valantar said:


> . Sufficient power to run an external 3.5" HDD would be nice, though - but that can be done with 12V1-1.5A.



Nope... some even modern drives during spin-up eat over 3A... not the greatest idea.


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## Axaion (Jan 23, 2020)

relying on motherboard makers to make great VRMs to deal with this is going to be a disaster, at anything but high end


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## wiyosaya (Jan 23, 2020)

IceShroom said:


> Still only 2 12V line just like the current specs?? Then why bother to change it.


As I see it, this is more of an issue than meets the eye. Back in the day of slot-1 procs, I had a dual proc system. The power connectors from the supply to the MB literally (which were before PS 2 days) burned over time so that I did my own mod and soldered them. The connectors were these http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#oldpc , and could only handle 5A per connector.

So with the current ATX power supply standard, the max current per connector is 6A and the power rating per connector is 72W per http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#atxmain24
This means that the MB better consume 144W or less - at least without other auxiliary connectors. The additional CPU power connectors on today's MBs are there because of the power requirements of CPUs.


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## laszlo (Jan 23, 2020)

Valantar said:


> ...CPU VRMs deliver hundreds of amps. CPUs run at anywhere from 1V to 1.4V (-ish) while consuming ~50-300W.



sorry but a whole system which use 600w is using 50 amps so won't deliver hundreds

on topic  atx psu is using much more components to obtain the other voltages than 12; is much easier and cheaper to obtain lower voltages from dc ;f.ex. from 12 v 10A - you can get 5 v 7A; 3.3 2A  with minimal components and no capacitors; i left 1A out for heat and power loss...

in my opinion this approach will be the norm and i have nothing against it as it will lower overall costs and components usage


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## iO (Jan 23, 2020)

londiste said:


> If someone didn't want to click to the source article and look for the link there, here is the Design Guide:
> 
> 
> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/single-rail-power-supply-platform-atx12vo-design-guide.pdf



Meh, so much for a 12V only PSU...


Edited because of brain fart


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

laszlo said:


> sorry but a whole system which use 600w is using 50 amps so won't deliver hundreds
> 
> on topic  atx psu is using much more components to obtain the other voltages than 12; is much easier and cheaper to obtain lower voltages from dc ;f.ex. from 12 v 10A - you can get 5 v 7A; 3.3 2A  with minimal components and no capacitors; i left 1A out for heat and power loss...
> 
> in my opinion this approach will be the norm and i have nothing against it as it will lower overall costs and components usage



CPU VRM does deliver hundreds.  Because the voltage is 1.0-1.4V. At 100A it will be 100-140W... 



iO said:


> Meh, so much for a 12V only PSU...
> View attachment 143017



Looks like a derp... 

The PSU doesn't have any sort of SATA power at all


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## iO (Jan 23, 2020)

Ferrum Master said:


> CPU VRM does deliver hundreds.  Because the voltage is 1.0-1.4V. At 100A it will be 100-140W...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoopsie, I'm just too dumb to read: "This connector is used on the Storage Device cable coming from the motherboard"
Those boards are certainly going to be interesting.


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## agatong55 (Jan 23, 2020)

Wouldn't something like this make it harder to overclock or would it make it easier?


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## Arct1c0n (Jan 23, 2020)

Fark this shit, I donk't wanna PAY MORE for a more complicated and more likely to fail mobo instead of the PSU doing the conversion. Screw you Intel, this is another BTX standard crap idea that needs to die


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## Valantar (Jan 23, 2020)

laszlo said:


> sorry but a whole system which use 600w is using 50 amps so won't deliver hundreds


...that's at 12V. Amperage is relative to voltage, after all. CPU VRMs deliver anything from ~.5V (idle) to ~1.5V (load). That translates to >100A for a high end CPU at stock clocks between the VRM and CPU, and several hundred for something really power hungry like a clocked-to-the-nines 9900KS. It's true that the amperage between the PSU and VRM is much lower, but again, that's because the voltage is higher. This is the whole point of moving the VRM as close as possible to the power sink, after all - the further away, the more overbuilt cabling/traces you will need.


agatong55 said:


> Wouldn't something like this make it harder to overclock or would it make it easier?


It wouldn't change anything in that regard whatsoever. CPUs already run off the 12V (only) EPS connector. It will likely make better 12V PSUs cheaper though, so as such it _might _make overclocking ever so slightly "easier" to achieve - but that's such a small difference it likely won't be noticeable.


Ferrum Master said:


> Nope... some even modern drives during spin-up eat over 3A... not the greatest idea.


Couldn't that be solved by spinning up the drive more slowly? I guess that would require some firmware trickery, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't be possible. But as I stated above, adding a 12V3A mode to current USB-C ports and front panel USB-C ports should be relatively trivial, and that would be sufficient for what you're describing. It's not like spin-up is a sustained state, and delivering the max spec for a few seconds should be fine for any properly made connector.


Axaion said:


> relying on motherboard makers to make great VRMs to deal with this is going to be a disaster, at anything but high end


That's what standards are for. The current ATX power supply standard specifies pretty much every single relevant specification for a PSU to be compliant. There's no reason whatsoever to expect a standard like this to be less strict. And enforcing minimum MTBFs or similar specs for the relevant components would be a simple addition to the spec.

Beyond that, why, exactly? Other than for overclocking, can you show me an example of a motherboard with a CPU VRM bad enough to actually be problematic?


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## londiste (Jan 23, 2020)

If motherboard manufacturers fail at providing necessary outputs or the quality sucks, there will be 3rd party adapters/splitters that output the stuff that you require. I am pretty sure we have a couple guys in this thread who can easily create one and it would be pretty cheap as well.


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## Ferrum Master (Jan 23, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Couldn't that be solved by spinning up the drive more slowly?



It is actually, there are features, kinda... but yet still some manage to make some drives... *cough Seagate cough* There were some forum reviewers a while a ago... imagine it as a problem power firing up a NAS with many discs... it can produce a horrible spike thus the supply could crap out.

I don't understand the worry about motherboard maker ability to make it work... laptops are doing it for years...


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## Dredi (Jan 23, 2020)

iO said:


> Meh, so much for a 12V only PSU...
> View attachment 143017


You didn’t really read it, did you?


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## ppn (Jan 23, 2020)

I don't want any sata power coming from motherboard. It destroys the clean simplistic layout.


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## Dredi (Jan 23, 2020)

ppn said:


> I don't want any sata power coming from motherboard. It destroys the clean simplistic layout.


Then don’t use sata devices? They already get a cable from the motherboard, big deal. U2 is a better alternative anyway.


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## candle_86 (Jan 24, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner tbh. With storage moving towards M.2, even things like SATA and Molex connectors aren't going to be widely used, apart from when people are using their PC's and keep done older parts.
> It's also quite efficient to convert 12V DC to lower DC Voltages, especially compared to going from AC to DC. I've done some power conversion boards for a client and they were quite cheap to make and used very few components, yet can support quite high loads without producing much heat.



When m.2 can replace my 4x2tb drives affordably maybe but otherwise nope.


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> When m.2 can replace my 4x2tb drives affordably maybe but otherwise nope.


It would be quite trivial to design HDDs to run off 12V only. And if not, this new standard includes provisions for standard SATA power off the motherboard.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 24, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> When m.2 can replace my 4x2tb drives affordably maybe but otherwise nope.



I put all my mechanical drives in a NAS. I only have SSDs in my PC with two out of three being M.2. Maybe I'm ahead of the curve, but I expect M.2 to become the main drive standard within a couple of years for anything but mechanical drives.



Valantar said:


> It would be quite trivial to design HDDs to run off 12V only. And if not, this new standard includes provisions for standard SATA power off the motherboard.


Or to make a small adapter, much like what was available for older IDE drives to make them work with SATA connectors.
Or as I said elsewhere in the comments here, SATA backplanes will become standard in cases, so you simply connect the power and the SATA cables to the backplane and then slide in the drives, with no cables connecting to the drives.


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I put all my mechanical drives in a NAS. I only have SSDs in my PC with two out of three being M.2. Maybe I'm ahead of the curve, but I expect M.2 to become the main drive standard within a couple of years for anything but mechanical drives.
> 
> 
> Or to make a small adapter, much like what was available for older IDE drives to make them work with SATA connectors.
> Or as I said elsewhere in the comments here, SATA backplanes will become standard in cases, so you simply connect the power and the SATA cables to the backplane and then slide in the drives, with no cables connecting to the drives.


That is exactly the directions I see going forward too. m.2 taking over end-user PC storage entirely (no cabling, yay!), and mechanical drives/mass storage being outsourced to some sort of networked storage, whether that's an OTS NAS or some DIY solution. nGbE becoming cheaper should help this along quite a bit, as even 2.5GbE doesn't bottleneck a 3.5" HDD and can provide decent responsiveness off something with SSD caching. The only reason any of the PCs in my house have mechanical drives in them are a) that they're my HTPC/NAS combo that serves all our media, or b) that they're used for 4k video editing and need a lot of storage that would be significantly bottlenecked by the current GbE network. In the coming year I see both of those changing, as I'll be building a new bespoke (and tiny) HTPC and relegating the old one to pure NAS duties, and hopefully also moving to some form of nGbE as long as _someone makes a damn switch that doesn't cost a fortune_. After quite a few HDD failures over the years I really can't wait for all of those to be centralized into one easily managed and redundant storage setup where I can forget about their noise and reliability until one of them needs swapping.

/rant


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## LabRat 891 (Jan 24, 2020)

Mixed feelings.
The idea of mass-production minimalized-cost OEM boards being responsible for more power conversion on board, especially with the era of USB powering so much mobile consumer gadgetry, is worrisome.
That said, this could improve reliability(simplicity in single rail design), efficiency, and BOM cost of OEM PSUs, as well as amount of copper needed in a given system. All of which are important in some regard to mass production and marketing. Raising efficiency, even at other costs, looks good to regulatory commissions and investors.

From an enthusiasts' standpoint (since we know this will eventually trickle into 'our world'): I am intrigued at the idea of building very simple, high-current power supplies and running off common battery power sources with less need for complicated SMPS building. (Linear regulated supercap - lead acid/lifepo backup power?) IIRC Google runs mostly custom hardware with Common Rail DC power for simplicity in power backup solutions. (Though this may have changed since I read about this years ago).

I wouldn't mind seeing 2.5" and 3.5" drives be pushed to an all 12V design. I just don't see storage being pushed fully to NGFF anytime soon. Mechanical HDDs are still highly competitive for high capacity cost efficiency. As mentioned, backplane or power adapter boards can be produced inexpensively en masse. Ex. Look at automotive USB chargers. I've actually used a combo of a 12V wallwart and a car charger to power a SATA drive while connecting via eSATA - SATA (I don't recommend this BTW. The ripple and transient AC may kill your drive)


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jan 24, 2020)

i really hope intel manages to make this the standard. looks much more logical on all aspects, be it size, cost or efficiency.


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2020)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> i really hope intel manages to make this the standard. looks much more logical on all aspects, be it size, cost or efficiency.


Considering Intel has made every comparable standard (AT, ATX, etc.) it should only really be a question of applying enough pressure. Of course they also made the abject failure that was the BTX standard, but that didn't really have the kind of advantages something like this does, and it had far wider reaching (and more expensive) implications in that it required redesigning both cases and motherboards. 

There's far less standing in the way of this than BTX thankfully, so this becoming the dominant standard in 5+ years wouldn't surprise me.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jan 24, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Considering Intel has made every comparable standard (AT, ATX, etc.) it should only really be a question of applying enough pressure. Of course they also made the abject failure that was the BTX standard, but that didn't really have the kind of advantages something like this does, and it had far wider reaching (and more expensive) implications in that it required redesigning both cases and motherboards.
> 
> There's far less standing in the way of this than BTX thankfully, so this becoming the dominant standard in 5+ years wouldn't surprise me.


tbh, with the benefits that a platform like this one provides, i wonder why intel, or anyone else, didnt make this push earlier.


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## londiste (Jan 24, 2020)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> tbh, with the benefits that a platform like this one provides, i wonder why intel, or anyone else, didnt make this push earlier.


OEMs have been creating custom PSUs/motherboards with the same idea for a while. On one hand, trying to standardize that could be useful. On the other hand SFFs are getting smaller and smaller and at the same time, the "mainstream PC" (as much as there is such a thing) is also getting smaller and simpler in terms of what in comprises of which makes the effects of this new standard both more powerful and easier to do at the same time. CPU and GPU power is 12V and sourced directly from PSU. There is not much of power sourced through motherboard and there are less and less external devices. Motherboards contain all the extra stuff an average user needs and has for a while now, even in mITX form factor. M.2 drives are common enough and remove the need for SATA drives for a lot of people.

12V only PSU is actually going to be cheaper. Manufacturers cannot really charge the same prices or premium for it as this setup for PSU is much simpler and it should be easier to compete at every level.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jan 24, 2020)

londiste said:


> OEMs have been creating custom PSUs/motherboards with the same idea for a while. On one hand, trying to standardize that could be useful. On the other hand SFFs are getting smaller and smaller and at the same time, the "mainstream PC" (as much as there is such a thing) is also getting smaller and simpler in terms of what in comprises of which makes the effects of this new standard both more powerful and easier to do at the same time. CPU and GPU power is 12V and sourced directly from PSU. There is not much of power sourced through motherboard and there are less and less external devices. Motherboards contain all the extra stuff an average user needs and has for a while now, even in mITX form factor. M.2 drives are common enough and remove the need for SATA drives for a lot of people.
> 
> 12V only PSU is actually going to be cheaper. Manufacturers cannot really charge the same prices or premium for it as this setup for PSU is much simpler and it should be easier to compete at every level.


yes, thats why i find strange the fact that psus, for diy pcs at least, are so "behind" technologically.


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## candle_86 (Jan 24, 2020)

Because it's a working standard that has no real reason to change. This is honestly a horrible idea, my powered USB 3.1 pcie card needs a says connection, my hard drives need sata, my bd-rw needs sata. There are other cards and devices that also use external power on the 5v line. I'm not willing to trust motherboard makers to be able to adaquitly provide the power to 6 sata devices all the time. The boards that can will be in the 5-600 dollar range while psu prices won't fall enough to offset the difference in motherboard price because right now a 70-100 dollar board is what most need and what I tend to use, unless psu prices are going to fall from 60-70 to paying me it's not worth it.


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> Because it's a working standard that has no real reason to change. This is honestly a horrible idea, my powered USB 3.1 pcie card needs a says connection, my hard drives need sata, my bd-rw needs sata. There are other cards and devices that also use external power on the 5v line. I'm not willing to trust motherboard makers to be able to adaquitly provide the power to 6 sata devices all the time. The boards that can will be in the 5-600 dollar range while psu prices won't fall enough to offset the difference in motherboard price because right now a 70-100 dollar board is what most need and what I tend to use, unless psu prices are going to fall from 60-70 to paying me it's not worth it.


All of those would be powered without issue from the on-board SATA power connectors on a motherboard made for this standard. With less cable losses and less mess to boot, and likely cleaner power. 

Also, do you know how cheap and easily available small, efficient DC-DC transformer circuits are? Powering six SATA devices off a decent entry-level motherboard would be easy - though what we'll likely see is power conversion circuitry tailored to match the number of ports on board. In other words any AIC controller would either need to convert its own power or you would need a small converter box - which would also become available cheaply, as they would be extremely easy to make.

As for the standard having "no real reason to change" - half the pins on the 24-pin are unnecessary legacy pins at this point. Isn't that enough reason to change? Ten or fifteen years ago PCs used the 3.3V and 5V rails for a lot of components. These days it's pretty much all 12V. For what few components need these low power rails, there is such easy access to cheap and efficient DC-DC conversion that most AICs these days use bespoke power conversion anyhow. Of course the power delivery standard should evolve to match this. Or did you also oppose the change when PSUs started including PCIe power connectors, and would you have preferred to keep adapting them from 4-pin Molex? Or when they stopped including heaps of Molex connectors? Or when SATA power replaced Molex? All of those were "working standards" after all.


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## candle_86 (Jan 24, 2020)

Valantar said:


> All of those would be powered without issue from the on-board SATA power connectors on a motherboard made for this standard. With less cable losses and less mess to boot, and likely cleaner power.
> 
> Also, do you know how cheap and easily available small, efficient DC-DC transformer circuits are? Powering six SATA devices off a decent entry-level motherboard would be easy - though what we'll likely see is power conversion circuitry tailored to match the number of ports on board. In other words any AIC controller would either need to convert its own power or you would need a small converter box - which would also become available cheaply, as they would be extremely easy to make.
> 
> As for the standard having "no real reason to change" - half the pins on the 24-pin are unnecessary legacy pins at this point. Isn't that enough reason to change? Ten or fifteen years ago PCs used the 3.3V and 5V rails for a lot of components. These days it's pretty much all 12V. For what few components need these low power rails, there is such easy access to cheap and efficient DC-DC conversion that most AICs these days use bespoke power conversion anyhow. Of course the power delivery standard should evolve to match this. Or did you also oppose the change when PSUs started including PCIe power connectors, and would you have preferred to keep adapting them from 4-pin Molex? Or when they stopped including heaps of Molex connectors? Or when SATA power replaced Molex? All of those were "working standards" after all.



I see no reason to change the standard no, i also require molex and the 4 pin floppy on any PSU i purchase because they still have a purpose. Breaking backwards compatibility for the sake of breaking it is pointless. It would create more cable mess actually as well, running 6 sata cables off a motherboard to connect drives creates a bigger mess


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> I see no reason to change the standard no, i also require molex and the 4 pin floppy on any PSU i purchase because they still have a purpose. Breaking backwards compatibility for the sake of breaking it is pointless. It would create more cable mess actually as well, running 6 sata cables off a motherboard to connect drives creates a bigger mess


Most PCs in the coming years will not need either SATA or Molex power plugs. For the minority needing them, using an adapter or running off on-board outputs is fine. It seems like you're using a lot of legacy hardware, which explains your reluctance for the standard to be modernized, but you are in a very tiny minority, and forcing features for the .001% onto the other 99.999% of users is silly, even if it "breaks" backwards compatibility. It's entirely reasonable for that minority to adapt, not the other way around. And the adaptation would be simple: run power off the motherboard, or get a box converting 12V to SATA and/or Molex power. You wouldn't have to throw out anything. Heck, your current PSU would even work with a simple adapter cable, it would just disconnect a bunch of pins and bump the 5VSB signal to 12V instead. I wouldn't even call that breaking compatibility, given that the standard already includes on-board SATA power (which can be adapted to both Molex and floppy).


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## candle_86 (Jan 24, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Most PCs in the coming years will not need either SATA or Molex power plugs. For the minority needing them, using an adapter or running off on-board outputs is fine. It seems like you're using a lot of legacy hardware, which explains your reluctance for the standard to be modernized, but you are in a very tiny minority, and forcing features for the .001% onto the other 99.999% of users is silly, even if it "breaks" backwards compatibility. It's entirely reasonable for that minority to adapt, not the other way around. And the adaptation would be simple: run power off the motherboard, or get a box converting 12V to SATA and/or Molex power. You wouldn't have to throw out anything. Heck, your current PSU would even work with a simple adapter cable, it would just disconnect a bunch of pins and bump the 5VSB signal to 12V instead. I wouldn't even call that breaking compatibility, given that the standard already includes on-board SATA power (which can be adapted to both Molex and floppy).



No motherboard makers are quite incompetent with new features and they then exclude them to only higher tier boards, that's why esata failed. The fact is m.2 is to expensive for mass market by itself, a quality 1tb hdd is $50 vs $150-200 for a quality m.2 drive and disparity only increases. 512 and 256 are to small to be the sole storage option, my games alone require 2.7 tb of space just for the steam folder, ignoring gog and origin folders. 

Intel is doing this only so they can license the standard somehow. The move from at to ATX made sense because we had standby power enabling sleep modes and a better connector that didn't fry boards because it's impossible to put it on wrong. The psu manufactures are not going to lower prices either, we are used to paying the current prices, they will just pocket the rest. 

As for adaptors don't get me started, me you and everyone else knows they will be built cheaply and poorly in China causing their own slew of problems. This standard is pointless.


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> No motherboard makers are quite incompetent with new features and they then exclude them to only higher tier boards, that's why esata failed. The fact is m.2 is to expensive for mass market by itself, a quality 1tb hdd is $50 vs $150-200 for a quality m.2 drive and disparity only increases. 512 and 256 are to small to be the sole storage option, my games alone require 2.7 tb of space just for the steam folder, ignoring gog and origin folders.
> 
> Intel is doing this only so they can license the standard somehow. The move from at to ATX made sense because we had standby power enabling sleep modes and a better connector that didn't fry boards because it's impossible to put it on wrong. The psu manufactures are not going to lower prices either, we are used to paying the current prices, they will just pocket the rest.
> 
> As for adaptors don't get me started, me you and everyone else knows they will be built cheaply and poorly in China causing their own slew of problems. This standard is pointless.


Ah, yes, the "everything made in China is garbage" argument rears its head once again. Remind me if you will, where is your PSU manufactured? Chances are these adapters will be made by the same companies in the same factories. Sure, there might be cheaper garbage options too, but if you buy that for a mission critical use case, that's on you.

AFAIK Intel doesn't charge for licensing the ATX spec, so why would they charge for this? Specifications like this are required to guarantee interoperability, so making adherence to the spec something you have to pay for too is extremely counterintuitive. They made this spec because, again, the current 24-pin cable is full of obsolete connectors that are no longer needed. Servers use 8-pin 12V connectors, most OEM PCs have moved to smaller non-standard connectors. This standard serves to unify these non-standard solutions under one standard - solely a good thing.

eSATA failed due to USB 3.0 being a far superior port, btw. The first standard didn't have power delivery, requiring either a separate USB cable for power or a wall plug, which made a mess of attempts to implement powered eSATA afterwards - no devices showed up, as they could not guarantee compatibility even with all eSATA-equipped devices. This was doomed from the start, and then USB 3.0 came in and made it entirely obsolete. (I still have a couple of eSATA devices, but run them off small and cheap USB-to-eSATA adapters).

As for your games requiring 2.7TB - again, welcome to a tiny minority. Most PC users use laptops with a single drive, and the majority of those in current models are SSDs around 256-512GB. Most desktop PC users use prebuilts, whether they be office PCs or for gaming etc. Office PCs have moved to SSDs (and largely m.2) outside of the very cheapest ones, while gaming PCs usually come with an m.2 SSD and a 3.5" HDD and are never added to - a setup _easily_ accommodated by a single, short power wire running off the motherboard. Heck, you could even route it alongside the SATA cable for some actually sensible cable management.

I kind of get where you are coming from - this standard would be a poor fit for my DIY NAS, which currently has 4 3.5" HDDs and a 2.5" SSD, and will expand over time to at least six HDDs. For something like this I'd likely need a breakout box of some sort. I really don't see this as a problem.

The point: a standard made for constrained use like in a PC should provide the basics automatically and have provisions for expansion into more advanced or esoteric uses - bundling all the advanced and esoteric uses in for everyone is a silly idea, causing overproduction of unnecessary components, driving up prices, lowering efficiency, and making things more complicated than they need to be for the vast majority. A simple standard for everyone with provisions for expansion built in is an obvious development as computer technology matures.


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## Awesomegamer919 (Jan 25, 2020)

Gungar said:


> Higher efficiency? xD you know that you just moved the problem on the motherboard right? you gain efficiency on the psu and you lose on the motherboard there is 0 changes to efficiency xD



False, this new design lowers to distance the power has to go as the lower voltage, lower voltage = more amps = more resistance = lower efficiency.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 25, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> No motherboard makers are quite incompetent with new features and they then exclude them to only higher tier boards, that's why esata failed. The fact is m.2 is to expensive for mass market by itself, a quality 1tb hdd is $50 vs $150-200 for a quality m.2 drive and disparity only increases. 512 and 256 are to small to be the sole storage option, my games alone require 2.7 tb of space just for the steam folder, ignoring gog and origin folders.
> 
> Intel is doing this only so they can license the standard somehow. The move from at to ATX made sense because we had standby power enabling sleep modes and a better connector that didn't fry boards because it's impossible to put it on wrong. The psu manufactures are not going to lower prices either, we are used to paying the current prices, they will just pocket the rest.
> 
> As for adaptors don't get me started, me you and everyone else knows they will be built cheaply and poorly in China causing their own slew of problems. This standard is pointless.


Dude, please stop spreading FUD.
eSATA could easily be added with a passive adapter to any motherboard, such as this. If anything, eSATAp failed, which as the much better standard that had power as well. That said, by the time that came around, USB 3.0 had already won and if you want to blame anyone here, blame the SATA-IO for not pushing/promoting their standards better.







M.2 is NOT expensive. The drives cost the SAME as SATA SSDs now, unless you're comparing apples and oranges and compare the price of SATA vs NVMe drives. Of course NVMe drives are going to cost more, as they have more pricey controllers and higher-end flash to be able to operate at higher speeds. However, they're not all that much expensive now.
Hard drives are simply not suitable for modern computers as they've become a major bottle neck. I don't want to spend a minute or more waiting for my PC to boot from a mechanical drive when it can boot in 15 seconds from an SSD.
I have 4TB of SSD storage in my PC and I have another 16TB of spinning rust in my NAS, where it belongs.

This has NOTHING to do with licensing. There's no fee to use any of the motherboard or PSU standards in use today and there likely never will be. Intel is in general smart enough to make sure their standards have a wide adoption rate to become standards, rather than some niche products.
By the way, a current ATX PSU is not going to be compatible with some of your antiques, as guess what, the ATX standard has evolved!
The -5V pin was dropped, which means some older boards won't work with new PSUs. We went from 20 to 24-pins and this requires either a split connector or an adapter for current PSUs to work with old boards.
And FYI, this isn't a new thing, 12V only PSUs started in 2011, it's just that Intel is trying to make it a proper standard.








						Power supply unit (computer) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




As for pricing, that's obviously an unknown factor, but if the cost is significantly lower, it's likely we'll pay less, as that's normally how the market works. Initially these new PSUs might not be cheaper, due to lower volumes, but over time they would become the norm and prices will go down.

Yeah, not everything is made in China and not everything made in China is shit. I mean, Apple makes their products in China too... It's all about who your manufacturing partner is and there are plenty of Taiwanese companies that have some of their manufacturing in China. Afaik, most Asus boards are made in China after their split with ASRock (as that was their motherboard production arm). Also, plenty of stuff is still made in Taiwan, so if you're so concerned, support Taiwanese companies instead.

You clearly don't know much about the industry or how these things work, so making silly comments like this, serves ZERO purpose, expect maybe justifying your claims to yourself so you can feel good about them.



Valantar said:


> I kind of get where you are coming from - this standard would be a poor fit for my DIY NAS, which currently has 4 3.5" HDDs and a 2.5" SSD, and will expand over time to at least six HDDs. For something like this I'd likely need a breakout box of some sort. I really don't see this as a problem.


You don't have a backplane in your NAS? I have four hot-swapable caddies and a backplane that takes one power connector. Still requires four SATA cables though...


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## Valantar (Jan 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> You don't have a backplane in your NAS? I have four hot-swapable caddies and a backplane that takes one power connector. Still requires four SATA cables though...


Sadly, no. It was built on a very tight budget and needed to fit in a small-ish space in the living room, so it currently lives in a Fractal Node 202. It serves for now, but is a major pain when drives need to be added or swapped. I'll likely keep the case for a while longer, but I'd love to either move to a Silverstone CS381 or make a custom case with a bunch of 5.25" hot swap modules. We'll see what time and money allows when the time comes for an upgrade I guess.


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## candle_86 (Jan 26, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Dude, please stop spreading FUD.
> eSATA could easily be added with a passive adapter to any motherboard, such as this. If anything, eSATAp failed, which as the much better standard that had power as well. That said, by the time that came around, USB 3.0 had already won and if you want to blame anyone here, blame the SATA-IO for not pushing/promoting their standards better.
> 
> 
> ...



Ssd is a boot drive, it's unneccesary for mass storage and too expensive. Fact is 2tb of SSD buys me 6-8tb of storage, that's why I use a 256gb nvme for boot but everything else is on hard drives, and with flash prices set to rise this year the cost difference will only increase. And I'm well aware that plenty of stuff made in China can be quality, but most adapters on the market are cheap and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. As for 24pin psus, I guess my psu in my ryzen that uses 20+4 design bought brand-new in March of last year is an odd ball, but wait every psu I've touched besides OEM units is 20+4. As for -5v ATX stopped supplying it around 1999 because only a handful of Isa soundcards used it and Isa as a standard isn't a thing. I'm well aware how this all works, and I'm also aware right now is not the time.

As for eSata no boards with an eSata port where like boards with WiFi, they where only on high end boards, and USB 3 is garbage compared to eSata period, USB even 3.1 can't sustain the transfer speeds.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 26, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> Ssd is a boot drive, it's unneccesary for mass storage and too expensive. Fact is 2tb of SSD buys me 6-8tb of storage, that's why I use a 256gb nvme for boot but everything else is on hard drives, and with flash prices set to rise this year the cost difference will only increase. And I'm well aware that plenty of stuff made in China can be quality, but most adapters on the market are cheap and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. As for 24pin psus, I guess my psu in my ryzen that uses 20+4 design bought brand-new in March of last year is an odd ball, but wait every psu I've touched besides OEM units is 20+4. As for -5v ATX stopped supplying it around 1999 because only a handful of Isa soundcards used it and Isa as a standard isn't a thing. I'm well aware how this all works, and I'm also aware right now is not the time.
> 
> As for eSata no boards with an eSata port where like boards with WiFi, they where only on high end boards, and USB 3 is garbage compared to eSata period, USB even 3.1 can't sustain the transfer speeds.


For YOU.
Your opinions don't apply to everyone else.
Who makes you the only person with the sole right to decide what is necessary or not?
I have 16TB in my NAS, that's for "cold" storage and my SSDs in my PC are for software and games that I use on a "daily" basis.
Spinning rust is not the future, sorry dude, it's not my fault you're stuck in the past.

Ever heard the saying "you get what you pay for"? Stop buying cheap crap.

Why do you have the right to decide when the time to transition to a new standard is? Are you working in senior management for a large hardware OEM? I doubt it, based on your comments here.

As for eSATA, did you not see the picture I posted? Those brackets came with plenty of boards. Again, go talk to the SATA-IO, they're the ones in charge of promoting the SATA standards. They clearly failed compared to the USB Promoter Group, for better or worse. The eSATA cable was poop, there was no power, so you needed some kind of wonky adapter or an external housing, regardless, hence the standard failed to take off as it wasn't consumer friendly. You need to start thinking like a person that doesn't understand computers and this is in general how standards win, they get a majority of users due to ease of use/affordability, not because they're technically the best. Just look at VHS vs. Betamax as a great example. Firewire was technically superior to USB as well, it also failed due to higher costs, even though it was much faster, offered better reliability and delivered more power.
USB 4 might be the solution that solves all of this, but the USB-C port has become too splintered in terms of what it's being designed for vs. what is being implemented. I just got a new phone, USB-C, but only 2.0 for data and beyond charging, it supports no other standards, which imho is crap. You might not agree though, which you have the right to. Maybe you'd rather we go back to serial interfaces and custom charger ports on phones? That's the way your reasoning here is going anyhow. Or maybe we should go back to AT PSU?


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## candle_86 (Jan 26, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> For YOU.
> Your opinions don't apply to everyone else.
> Who makes you the only person with the sole right to decide what is necessary or not?
> I have 16TB in my NAS, that's for "cold" storage and my SSDs in my PC are for software and games that I use on a "daily" basis.
> ...



Considering I run my own pc building business on the weekends and I get plenty of people that have a need for a terrabyte or more of storage and they are not willing to pay the cost tb+ ssd's. There are also plenty of users here that feel the exact same way. Movies, music, games, pictures do not benefit from an ssd that's been tested for years and only some open world games benefit and then by 1-2 fps at most. 
As for a nas this is something I would never recommend for an average home user, the average person doesn't want a second box taking up space. This standard is bad for the average user. Your willingness to drop over a grand on ssd's does not represent the average user. They are quite content with a small SSD and a large hard drive and are not willing to spend the money for a large SSD or a nas. Your attitude and opinions do not reflect the average user or their needs, they reflect the worst part of the computer enthusiast the elitism that you must spend this much or your buying junk.

An average new build I just put together for a guy is a great example, it replaces his 2nd gen i3 system.

Ryzen 3 2200g
Asrocks a320 board
8gb stick of ddr4
256gb says SSD
2tb hdd (his tax documents, family pictures, home movies, and music library) transfer from old system
450w psu
$30 matx case

Their is an average non gamer system.


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## Valantar (Jan 26, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> Considering I run my own pc building business on the weekends and I get plenty of people that have a need for a terrabyte or more of storage and they are not willing to pay the cost tb+ ssd's. There are also plenty of users here that feel the exact same way. Movies, music, games, pictures do not benefit from an ssd that's been tested for years and only some open world games benefit and then by 1-2 fps at most.
> As for a nas this is something I would never recommend for an average home user, the average person doesn't want a second box taking up space. This standard is bad for the average user. Your willingness to drop over a grand on ssd's does not represent the average user. They are quite content with a small SSD and a large hard drive and are not willing to spend the money for a large SSD or a nas. Your attitude and opinions do not reflect the average user or their needs, they reflect the worst part of the computer enthusiast the elitism that you must spend this much or your buying junk.
> 
> An average new build I just put together for a guy is a great example, it replaces his 2nd gen i3 system.
> ...


You're right about all of this (well, not really about NAS systems not being good for the average user, with digital photography and videography only increasing and thus the need for connected storage only increasing, but the barrier to entry is still too high), but the issue is that the build you sketched out there is a perfect example of where the new standard would simplify things. That system will in all likelihood never have another drive added to it, so running a simple SATA power chain off the motherboard with 1-2 ports on it (depending if the SSD is m.2 or not) would make for a far cleaner layout. You would also avoid running a >=50W 3.3V and 5V conversion system in a PC that would barely scratch 1/10 of that power on those voltage rails.

With a simple 12V only standard it would become easier to build higher efficiency low output PSUs (there are a lot of affordable 92-96% efficiency 12V AC-DC PSUs used by the SFF crowd from companies like MeanWell) meaning you'd be able to build that PC with a more suitable (450W for that is massive overkill even when factoring in aging and the possibility of adding a GPU - that system will likely max out around 100W from the wall), more efficient and likely cheaper PSU than you currently do. There would be no need for any additional power delivery components as even the most basic motherboard would be able to handle two drives. Cabling would be simpler, it would run cooler, likely last longer, be easier to build (no more 24-pin to wrangle!), and at zero added cost. How is that not a win-win?


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## candle_86 (Jan 26, 2020)

Valantar said:


> You're right about all of this (well, not really about NAS systems not being good for the average user, with digital photography and videography only increasing and thus the need for connected storage only increasing, but the barrier to entry is still too high), but the issue is that the build you sketched out there is a perfect example of where the new standard would simplify things. That system will in all likelihood never have another drive added to it, so running a simple SATA power chain off the motherboard with 1-2 ports on it (depending if the SSD is m.2 or not) would make for a far cleaner layout. You would also avoid running a >=50W 3.3V and 5V conversion system in a PC that would barely scratch 1/10 of that power on those voltage rails.
> 
> With a simple 12V only standard it would become easier to build higher efficiency low output PSUs (there are a lot of affordable 92-96% efficiency 12V AC-DC PSUs used by the SFF crowd from companies like MeanWell) meaning you'd be able to build that PC with a more suitable (450W for that is massive overkill even when factoring in aging and the possibility of adding a GPU - that system will likely max out around 100W from the wall), more efficient and likely cheaper PSU than you currently do. There would be no need for any additional power delivery components as even the most basic motherboard would be able to handle two drives. Cabling would be simpler, it would run cooler, likely last longer, be easier to build (no more 24-pin to wrangle!), and at zero added cost. How is that not a win-win?



Because the option to expand is missing, if my user later wants to add say a USB 4 card but that needs sata power suddenly 1-2 cables isn't enough. M.2 even sata is still on average 10% more so I still build comps with readular data ssd's because there isn't really a reason to say spend 10 dollars more for the same drive. 

Then my user goes on Amazon and buys splitters or a DC to DC converter but not the quality ones, nope they buy the 2nd cheapest. Then now suddenly his drives are dead and ive got to support this mess.


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## Valantar (Jan 26, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> Because the option to expand is missing, if my user later wants to add say a USB 4 card but that needs sata power suddenly 1-2 cables isn't enough. M.2 even sata is still on average 10% more so I still build comps with readular data ssd's because there isn't really a reason to say spend 10 dollars more for the same drive.
> 
> Then my user goes on Amazon and buys splitters or a DC to DC converter but not the quality ones, nope they buy the 2nd cheapest. Then now suddenly his drives are dead and ive got to support this mess.


It's highly likely the motherboard would have at least two SATA power outputs (w/included cables) unless it's very small (most boards have six SATA ports, and it would need to be able to provide power to all of those) and/or the power cable included with the board would have at least three connectors (that's the standard on current PSUs at least), so it's unlikely they would need to buy anything at all. Adding a splitter would be no problem whatsoever unless what they are adding draws a lot of current (IIRC SATA maxes out at 4A per voltage). Chances of a simple voltage converter box killing the drives is also very low given how simple such a circuit is and how it's entirely separated from AC or any high voltage.

Btw, if 10% of your 256GB SATA SSD's price is $10, you should really be buying different drives. Looking at an affordable but good drive like the MX500 on Newegg the price difference between 2.5" and m.2 is $0.75. There are more low end options in the 2.5" form factor, sure, but there are still good cheap m.2 ones like the MyDigitalSSD SB2 within a few dollars of the cheapest name brand 2.5" ones.


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## candle_86 (Jan 26, 2020)

Valantar said:


> It's highly likely the motherboard would have at least two SATA power outputs (w/included cables) unless it's very small (most boards have six SATA ports, and it would need to be able to provide power to all of those) and/or the power cable included with the board would have at least three connectors (that's the standard on current PSUs at least), so it's unlikely they would need to buy anything at all. Adding a splitter would be no problem whatsoever unless what they are adding draws a lot of current (IIRC SATA maxes out at 4A per voltage). Chances of a simple voltage converter box killing the drives is also very low given how simple such a circuit is and how it's entirely separated from AC or any high voltage.
> 
> Btw, if 10% of your 256GB SATA SSD's price is $10, you should really be buying different drives. Looking at an affordable but good drive like the MX500 on Newegg the price difference between 2.5" and m.2 is $0.75. There are more low end options in the 2.5" form factor, sure, but there are still good cheap m.2 ones like the MyDigitalSSD SB2 within a few dollars of the cheapest name brand 2.5" ones.



I only sell people the Samsung drives due to better warranty and better controllers.


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## Valantar (Jan 27, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> I only sell people the Samsung drives due to better warranty and better controllers.


Better warranties might be (can't say I have any idea, plus that they tend to vary across regions) but Samsung has been caught up to - and largely surpassed - in the controller game for quite a while now. Not that that matters much in SATA anyhow, but even there drives from competitors like SanDisk are just as good, and often much cheaper.

Then again, this also shows that you're not all about value in these builds. Might be time to consider moving to m.2 for the sake of convenience?


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## candle_86 (Jan 27, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Better warranties might be (can't say I have any idea, plus that they tend to vary across regions) but Samsung has been caught up to - and largely surpassed - in the controller game for quite a while now. Not that that matters much in SATA anyhow, but even there drives from competitors like SanDisk are just as good, and often much cheaper.
> 
> Then again, this also shows that you're not all about value in these builds. Might be time to consider moving to m.2 for the sake of convenience?



No it's value but with the goal of longevity, the people I support tend to keep desktops for quite awhile, another guy just moved on from a core2, and I've got another customer finally giving up his Athlon XP won't run Win 10. Knowing some of them will keep these a decade or more warranty length matters as well as reputation. Samsung and Intel hold the crown in durability and warranty but Intel drives cost more than evo drives.

It's also that long time table is why I don't support the 12v psu. Take athlon XP guy, back in 2010 we added a sata raid controller on his pci slots as his ide drive died and new ide drives where already hard to find and expensive. I also added a USB 3 card to the core 2 system for their external drive. I add cards to these systems to give them functionality, but like the USB 3 card sometimes add-on cards need more power than the slot provides, and I don't want to be in a situation where I'm forced to go well time to build a new rig we're out of power leads.


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## Valantar (Jan 27, 2020)

candle_86 said:


> No it's value but with the goal of longevity, the people I support tend to keep desktops for quite awhile, another guy just moved on from a core2, and I've got another customer finally giving up his Athlon XP won't run Win 10. Knowing some of them will keep these a decade or more warranty length matters as well as reputation. Samsung and Intel hold the crown in durability and warranty but Intel drives cost more than evo drives.
> 
> It's also that long time table is why I don't support the 12v psu. Take athlon XP guy, back in 2010 we added a sata raid controller on his pci slots as his ide drive died and new ide drives where already hard to find and expensive. I also added a USB 3 card to the core 2 system for their external drive. I add cards to these systems to give them functionality, but like the USB 3 card sometimes add-on cards need more power than the slot provides, and I don't want to be in a situation where I'm forced to go well time to build a new rig we're out of power leads.


Reminds me of the Core2Quad system I had before I built my current Ryzen system; it had two USB 3.0/3.1 controller cards in it. One needed a molex, the other a sata power plug.

Thing is, the chances of this happening again are... pretty much nonexistent. Modern systems integrate a massive amount of I/O - a huge change from a decade ago - and the chances of a basic/non-advanced user like you describe needing/wanting, say, USB4 when it arrives is pretty much zero. There will be zero appreciable difference for such users as most of them don't have any devices that will even saturate USB 3.0 so there will be no incentive to upgrade (and if they want/need USB-C, well, it's your job as the builder of the system to be forward thinking enough to make sure to buy a motherboard with USB-C). They're also highly unlikely to need more SATA or m.2 ports than a modern entry level board provides, and there are no new storage or I/O standards incoming. Thus this entire point is moot.

Besides that, there's still nothing saying you'd ever need to scrap a build due to running out of power cables. Splitters are fine as long as you don't need heaps of power - even cheap ones. As I said, motherboards are likely to provide at least two SATA power plugs and the cables needed, which following modern psu standards would likely have 3 plugs each. And if you need more power than that is able to provide, chances are the device in question will run off a 12V plug like PCIe anyhow.


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## londiste (Jan 27, 2020)

Talking about splitters-backplanes, while it is a good bit different Seasonic's SCMD/Connect suddenly makes a lot more sense. The idea of 12V only PSU has apparently been making rounds for a while:








						Seasonic Connect a Godsend for Cable Management Novices?
					

Seasonic showed us a unique new innovation that could change the way you manage your cable clutter, particularly python-wrestling with your 24-pin cable behind the motherboard tray. Called simply the Seasonic Connect, the accessory is a PSU connection hub, or a disintegration of a conventional...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Valantar (Jan 27, 2020)

londiste said:


> Talking about splitters-backplanes, while it is a good bit different Seasonic's SCMD/Connect suddenly makes a lot more sense. The idea of 12V only PSU has apparently been making rounds for a while:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I think that implementation is a bit on the silly and overkill side, a 12V standard does leave a lot of room for implementing smart custom solutions tailored to a use case, aesthetic, etc.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 31, 2020)

Here's a great example of why the new 12V connector makes perfect sense. Mini-ITX X570 board.






Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1545...570-motherboard-with-intels-10-gbe-controller





						ASRock Rack > X570D4I-2T
					






					www.asrockrack.com


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## Valantar (Jan 31, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Here's a great example of why the new 12V connector makes perfect sense. Mini-ITX X570 board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Completely agree. If I had a mountain of cash lying around I would buy that for NAS use - the 8 SATA ports through OCULink and built-in 10GbE means it has everything I want covered out of the box. Just too bad it will likely cost >$500.


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