# ADSL bridge/house wiring problem



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 12, 2009)

I'm scratching my head on this one...

Long story short, I've had problems with my ADSL connection for years mostly because the signal strength is so low being so far away from the ISP hub.  I have frequent disconnects and my server keeps a log of every time (checks every 12-13 minutes) it couldn't access the Internet.  From July 7 to date, it has made record of 312 checks with no Internet access. 


A few days ago, I noticed that whenever the treadmill is running, the Internet connection would go away.  Turn the treadmill on, and it works again.  The treadmill is in the same room as where I am currently typing this but the ADSL bridge is on a separate floor no less than 25 feet away.  There is only a SMC Gigabit switch in the same room as the treadmill and it is connected to the router (via 75' CAT6 crossover) and the router is connected to the ADSL bridge (via a 1' CAT6).


This is where it gets strange...

This computer, and the other computers in this room, are all plugged into a single outlet which has a direct feed to the electrical box.  The treadmill is plugged into a normal outlet in the room on a completely separate circuit.  When the the treadmill is on and plugged into that one outlet, I can almost guarantee the Internet connection will fail within seconds.  When the treadmill is plugged into an outlet in another room, the Internet connection is unaffected regardless if it is on or off.

Thinking that the treadmill was some how sending feedback through the power cable to the outlet the ADSL bridge is on, I tried to see if they are in fact, on the same breaker.  As it turns out, they aren't.  I killed the power to the outlet the ADSL bridge and router share and the treadmill was still operational.


Some how, the treadmill is interrupting the Internet connection though that outlet.  How is that even possible?


Even still, that doesn't answer all the Internet outages as there are some at 1, 2, 3, and 4 am when there's no way it would be on.  It is possible that either the furnace, air conditioner, garage door, or fridges could be running at that time but, just like the treadmill, none of those share the same circuit.  It is really impossible to know without understanding how this is happening in the first place.


Has anyone seen anything like this and found a cause?


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## 95Viper (Dec 12, 2009)

Read this paper. It may explain things.http://www.controlledpwr.com/whitepapers/uknoisa2.pdf

It has happened before.http://www.edaboard.com/ftopic291597.html and http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/529240.html

You may need some form of filtering on the electric lines and checking the grounding and bonding.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 12, 2009)

I noticed one thing: the phone cord that runs to the ADSL bridge is running parrallel (through the same holes) to two 110v cables.  It is very possible that one of those cords ends up at that outlet.

Is it possible that running the treadmill is exciting one of those lines and interfering with the phone line?  At this point, that would be the most logical explaination.


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## 95Viper (Dec 12, 2009)

Anything is possible, just about.  It could be inducing noise or ripple into the line.  But, you would need equipment to test it or re-route the phone line temporarily away from the area you think may be culprit site.  If that is the problem, it may need shielding or better shielding; if it is shielded.  You really don't want to filter it, as most filters will degrade the signal and make matters worse.

The phone cord is usually just twisted pairs and not good at reducing externally induced noise.  Some has aluminum foil around it, but it ain't going nowhere.  Sorta like a aluminum foil hat to keep out the men in black.

Edit: you might want to try feeding your adsl equipment thru a filtered ups, which might help with any voltage fluctuations, current drops, and emi/noise.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 12, 2009)

Well, it is running through a UPS (Cyberpower Office something or other) and a surge protector (surge protector first).  I'm not sure if the UPS is filtering much on the phone line or not.

I mean, when the phone guys come out to check things, they say it shouldn't be working (SNR and line attenuation are way too low).  In fact, it wouldn't be working without this fancy dancy Netopia 3300 series ADSL bridge I have (not their equipment).  It works fine most of the time but something (treadmill and most likely something else) cause it to dip a bit too low.


The phone cord's only shielding appears to be that plastic/rubber sleeve and whatever shielding is on the individual wires inside of it (doubt any).  I think it would be reasonable to say it is unshielded.

There is a mess of phone cords (at least 3 meet, one is going to the ADSL bridge I would be guessing with the other 2) with exposed wiring within inches of those two power lines.  I should really take a picture of it.


Edit: Stats on 10-22-2009 (a few days before then, I called them because we were without internet service for about 4 hours before it fixed itself)



PROTECTED|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|5.53|15.00
Line Attenuation|59.90|31.50
Output Power|18.17|12.33


UNPROTECTED|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|7.30|15.00
Line Attenuation|58.09|30.50
Output Power|18.52|12.33


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## W1zzard (Dec 12, 2009)

put the adsl bridge as close to the point where the telco's cable enters the house


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 12, 2009)

I think that's not possible because that means tearing up insulation and finding a home for it inside.  Instead, I think I will run a separate shielded phone line directly to the ADSL bridge but, finding the time to do that won't be easy.

The distance will be between 70-100 feet, should that be a problem?


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## SummerDays (Dec 12, 2009)

I was reading this and thinking: that treadmill is creating a great amount of static electricty.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 12, 2009)

When I read that, I thought "no way, it is grounded."  So I checked.  The outlet the treadmill is plugged in to has reversed polarity.  There are several outlets on this floor that have either reversed polarity or an open neutral.  Another thing to fix...

One outlet doesn't even have a ground.


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## 95Viper (Dec 13, 2009)

Most IW(inside wire) is just twisted pair, barely twisted.  You might wanna think about running cat 5 or 6 or something, instead of the cheap IW.
Look at the warning on this media company's web page(in red):http://www.quantometrix.com/wiring.htm

Yep, I would definitely fix the electrical problems!

If you know any cable techs or splicers at the phone company, see if they would test your line.
It would be good if they test will you jog on the treadmill.  

Ain't that hard to eliminate line troubles.  I hated seeing sloppy phone work... it would pi** me off to no end. Always gave the customer what they were paying or better if I could.  I could tell you some horror stories.


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## westom (Dec 13, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> When I read that, I thought "no way, it is grounded."  So I checked.  The outlet the treadmill is plugged in to has reversed polarity.  There are several outlets on this floor that have either reversed polarity or an open neutral.


Even reversed polarity would not explain your symptoms.  Appreciate this.  Even if one thing 'fixes' your failure, you are not done.  To have the failure you have described involved multiple defects.

  Some additional facts.  Just because outlets are powered by separate breakers does not mean their wires are separate.  Possible is something called a common neutral.  Acceptable by code.  But problematic when loads are reactive such as a motor or computer.

  Obviously DSL signal strength is defective.   A solution that requires viewing circuits from a building wide perspective including wiring and connections at the service entrance.

  Phone wire bundled with the AC wiring normally would not cause problems.  DSL is radio frequencies.  AC electric is noise that is routinely filtered out; made irrelevant.  But again, your have multiple defects meaning things that should not be problematic could be contributing to DSL signal loss.  Again, you are not done until you have corrected multiple reasons for your DSL dropout.


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## lemonadesoda (Dec 13, 2009)

"Reverse polarity" is a nightmare, esp. on lighting circuits. e.g. I moved into a house. Changed the lightbulb when the lights were switched off. Got an electric shock! Why? Because the light socket was permanently live with the switch controlling the neutral (return). Blxxdy nightmare. Unbelievable that such a setup could exist.

Basic rules:

1./ Make sure your house/office is correctly wired. Dont accept "earth" and "neutral" being mixed as "same thing". This is very common in continental europe

2./ Make sure all your sockets and light switches are correctly wired

3./ Keep power lines as short as possible. Avoid any looking or tangle of wires.  If you have to "tidy" extra wire length, zig-zag and bind, dont coil.

4./ Keep data lines and phone lines AWAY from power lines.

5./ Shield data lines as much as possible. I have RJ45'ed, CAT5e'd the whole house/office. The phone line gets patched into the RJ45 and routed to the modem using CAT5e cable

6./ Remember that long cable runs must be done with CAT5e/6 CABLE and not PATCH-CABLE. Stranded patch cable is only good for 20% of the run length that full spec solid CABLE can run.

7./ Short patch cables are used not just "to be neat" but to minimise cable spaghetti and crosstalk.

8./ If you must run data and power cables parallel, try to maximise the distance between them... and make sure the data is properly shielded, and the power is properly earthed.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 28, 2009)

Update...

1. The wiring on those 7 outlets has been fixed. Treadmill still kills the internet.

2. A rheostat which was relatively close to the modem was also replaced with a normal light switch.  It too caused the Internet to drop.  The switch no longer triggers a disconnect.

3. The treadmill was moved from one room to another.  It still kills the internet.

4. The phone line is an unshielded CAT3 cable.

5. The phone line is split multiple times.

6. The phone line goes through the same drilled holes as two power cables.  About 6 inches from those drilled holes are three more power cables running parallel to it.


I'm planning on buying a 1000' solid CAT6 STP (Shielded Twisted Pair) cable reel.  I will update again once that is installed...




lemonadesoda said:


> 8./ If you must run data and power cables parallel, try to maximise the distance between them... and make sure the data is properly shielded, and the power is properly earthed.


Would two feet be enough?  As far as I know, all the lines should be properly grounded now.


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## Athlon2K15 (Dec 28, 2009)

i know it might be a PITA but when i bought my house i also had a wiring mess had tons of the old cloth cable and phone lines running through the same holes and i always wondered why i had static on my line,after i replaced all the old cloth cable and rewired my entire house (separating electrical and phone wires at least 6ft apart now) the problem is gone,so maybe all you need to do is move the phone line away and maybe find some sort of junction so your line isnt split so many times


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## westom (Dec 28, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> 1. The wiring on those 7 outlets has been fixed. ...
> 2. A rheostat ... replaced ....
> 3. The treadmill was moved ...



  These things were experiments that really do not address more likely reasons for the problem.  Should not be considered attempts to fix anything.    IOW first existing conditions are defined.  Later a fix is implemented.

  Phone cables near power lines will not cause problems if DSL is working properly.  Separating phone lines from AC mains would not fix the problem - only cure symptoms.  Not stated was how that rheostat was electrically connected to the circuits also shared by the DSL.  Yes, it was somehow electrically connected.  Ignore 'noise radiated through the air'.  That only causes problems when something else is defective.  More important is what electrical conductors exist between that outlet and DSL.  Share neutral?  Safety ground?  Other phone appliances?

  Signal strength is listed in the DSL modem; reported in dBs.   If I read that table correctly, your download S/N ratio is woefully too low.  Your problem is not noise generators.  Your problem is a defective DSL signal.  Notice that your DSL sometimes works perfectly fine even when the signal is completely defective.  That is why numbes are so critically important and why the Go-Nogo testing you have been using (moving the rheostat) can even create more confusion.

  Now, is the defect in your parts of that circuit or theirs?  Call them up and have them fix the defective DSL.  And if the problem is inside your house, you pay handsomely.  Or first determine who has made the problem – you or the telco.  IOW router a wire through doorways from the DSL mode to the terminal block or NIC where your wires meet theirs.  What is the S/N ratio now (which means also reporting those numbers here)?  Then do same with all other household phone lines disconnected at that service entrance connection.

  Your dB number must exceed 12 (and would never get about 20 even though 20 dB would be a desirable number).  Now you are seeking the defect.  And not yet even trying to fix anything.  Fixing comes much later after the entire defect circuit is defined.

  Another important test (to fix nothing; to only collect facts).  Put the DSL modem on a UPS with the UPS not plugged into AC mains.  Do those noise generators still create interference?  How does the S/N number change?  (Better is to not fix interference generators.  To leave those as test fixtures to create noise so that the actual defect can be located.)

  Appreciate what you objective is.  Not to fix anything.  First to collect enough facts so that all the defects are first identified.  And numbers so that a future fix is made obvious only by numbers.  Those two tests (S/N ratios with DSL modem connected in various ways AND using the isolated power from a UPS) will report things you did not even know about.  Things that may be learned only after reporting here what was discovered.


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## Kreij (Dec 28, 2009)

If you run shielded cable and the drain is properly connect to ground, you can run that cable right next to a power line. Remember only one end of the shielded cable's drain wire gets connected to ground, not both ends.

Unsheilded data lines can get rather finicky due to EMI.


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## W1zzard (Dec 28, 2009)

i stand by my previous suggestion, move at least the splitter, possibly the modem to where the phone cable comes into the house, at least try if that works before buying some cable and running it all through the house


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## westom (Dec 28, 2009)

Kreij said:


> If you run shielded cable and the drain is properly connect to ground, you can run that cable right next to a power line.


  That cable can be run next to the power line and still problems must not exist.  DSL is radio waves.  Power lines are audio.  If running the phone wires near power cables cause any problems, then phones will have obvious hum on them.  No hum.  No interference from nearby power lines to conventional phone service or DSL.


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## Steevo (Dec 28, 2009)

I reran all my phone and cable to make sure I had good signal and clean power.




> That cable can be run next to the power line and still problems must not exist. DSL is radio waves. Power lines are audio. If running the phone wires near power cables cause any problems, then phones will have obvious hum on them. No hum. No interference from nearby power lines to conventional phone service or DSL.



DSL runs on the same copper pair as your phone line, using bandwidth frequency higher than human hearing to transfer data.

if you want to get technical it is a multiplexed audio wave carrying digital data, and yes a multiplexed phase wave like the triple 20Hz the USA uses for home power can cause a standing wave effect in a pair of cables like your phone line, degrading lower power signal. Or a bad ground at the entry point can turn the whole set of phone lines in the house into a large antenna for RF interfereance.


Impedance matched phone line ( a accidental effect) can cause a phase shift in the standing wave created by power line interfereance and the start of the resonant effect can be created by the initial line tuning by the DSL modem. The treadmill causes a slight phase change in the circut thereby breaking the standing wave, or reinforcing it.


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## westom (Dec 29, 2009)

AC electric uses 60 Hertz and its harmonics.  Frequencies that never exceed audio frequencies.  DSL is radio waves - long wave (or low frequency AM radio) freqencies= that are well above 1000 hertz.  AC electric is not anywhere near those frequencies -  does not create the problems others want to solve.  If phone wires were too close to AC electric, hum on the telephone would be obvious.

  If their problem existed, the strongest interference obviously would harm conventional phone (POTS) service.  Ignore the so many posts about wire location.  Solve the problem which is made so obvious by unacceptable signal strength numbers.  Even when your DSL was working, those numbers said DSL was still defective.  That is how electricity works.  Even defective installations can still work.  Just another reason why every solution must be based in the numbers.

  Described was how to locate the defect.  Ignore irrelevant worries about how the DSL wire was routed. Shielded wire is not necessary.  Obvious once experience is obtained by learning the numbers.  See above frequency numbers?  That says why AC electric nonsense is not relevant.  Do the tests to first learn what is defective.  Post what you discover to then get replies with much more useful facts.  Much later (ie running new wires or disconnecting an offending device) is when a solution gets implemented.


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## Steevo (Dec 29, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_standing_wave_ratio
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/py106/Electricgenerators.html

Shielding is an issue. If 60Hz does not cause a interfereance pattern/induction then why is this possible http://users.stargate.net/~eit/kidspage.htm kiddie stuff.


Induction. Only a properly shielded and grounded cable will prevent the induction from entering the TX/RX wires. 

A long set of phone lines, ran close to a long set of power wires will cause the phone line to have a standing wave of 60Hz, and depending on length and termination the waveform will be larger than the maximum Db for the DSL modem to communicate with the ISP hub.

If you look at a 60Hz waveform and imagine that you are adding another frequency on top of that, but the peaks of the 60Hz are already causing clippin gin the analog interface of the DSL modem, you then have a issue where the unit is unable to filter or terminate the voltage and thus lose communications.


Move the line, or move the modem to the entry point of the phone line. Problem solved, most modems have a training/line conditioning phase during boot, and if the signal values are low they try adjusting the sensitivity. But when interfereance causes the load sense to say signal is high and clipping it tries to dampen the signal, and thus you have a cycle of problems that are self propogating.


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## westom (Dec 29, 2009)

Steevo said:


> Induction. Only a properly shielded and grounded cable will prevent the induction from entering the TX/RX wires.


Amazing how many know using only subjective reasoning.  If that induction exists, the a loud hum exists on all phones.  No hum on phone means that induction does not exist.  One is expected to also think.  No hum - no induction.

  Numbers. For significant induction to exist, wires woud be bundled for, at minimum, hundreds of feet.  Another number.   Frequency says why the problem does not exist.  And then filtering inside a DSL modem also makes induction irrelevant. Numerious fundamental principles say induction is irrelevant.

  Then we add experimental evidence.  No hum on phones means that induction does not exist.   

   OP's signal strength numbers suggest problems elsewhere.  Numbers - not subjective conclusions based in an incomplete Wikipedia artciles - are how one 'follows the evidence'.

  Provided were simple experiements to 'follow the evidence'.  Too many instead would cure a problem using wild speculation, urban myth, and insufficient knowledge from Wikipedia?   If induction was a problem, then hum exists on all phone.  Repeated because Steevo keeps ignoring that damning fact.   DSL signal strength numbers are how a defect gets located.  Solution comes later.  The simple solution.  Follow the evidence.  That means the numbers; not wild speculation.  That means DSL signal strength.


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## Steevo (Dec 29, 2009)

funny, im on the phone now and it has a small hum, and notably enough, ost phones can't really produce a loud 60Hz with a cheap pizoelectric speaker.

A electrical device adding noise to the line like, ohh, a treadmill, causing the signal to degrade beyond connection capability might add evidence to my supposed "theory".


Twisted pairs for hundreds of feet, and also the reason we are moving to fiber optics. Noise does exist, most phones have a low pass filter to clean up the voice, how many people talk at 60hz? Plus a basic understanding of load coils on a POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) will reveal another reason you don't hear hum, plus the barrier where your voice/analog conversation becomes digital data.


If induction or "crosstalk" didn't exist then we woudn't need termination training on GRRD5 for a video card to work properly, or on the RAM, or on the motherboard, and there would be no audio noise when the GPU is under heavy load. But there is. 

I have ran hundreds of feet of 900Mhz teflon foam insulated, double shielded, grounded helix. I know for a fact that it does exist.


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## Beertintedgoggles (Dec 29, 2009)

Just a quick addition, 60Hz can get coupled onto cables (shielded or unshielded) carrying much higher signals.  Where I work we build satellite test systems (they actually hook up the completed satellite to our system in a big ass vaccum chamber to test functionality before payload delivery.... blastoff in other words).  We always run power lines in separate bundles from our coax lines...  if not you'd be surprised the 60Hz offset spurs that get generated (also the 2nd harmonic... 120Hz offset can be a pain too).  If you were only worried about the 60Hz being generated onto the phone lines then there shouldn't be much of a problem as this would be filtered off on the front end of any decent DSL modem.  The problem lies when you have say a 1 MHz signal and a spur at 1,000,060 HZ due to coupling of the AC line and the data line.  In our line of work, it can be a pain to remedy these problems on a 40GHz signal (that's gigahertz, not a typo).  Just to clarify, even our double-shielded, silver-braided, ~$100 per foot cables will pick up the AC frequency if bundled tightly with the AC lines.  (Also switching power supplies suck when they induce 44kHz and all their friends on poorly routed cables).


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## Steevo (Dec 29, 2009)

Zactly.

Harmonics work in such a way that it might not be a issue untill the DSL modem tries to tune the line to a frequency that is a harmonic of 60Hz. I had issues at a site with another brand of base station, both on 900Mhz the hopping pattern was disrupted occasionally. We are limited to 1W so the power is precious and not to be lost to some crappy wiring or induction from another device. I paid for my system to be up there, the other guy had to remove his as he was not.

Score one for me.


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## westom (Dec 29, 2009)

Beertintedgoggles said:


> Just a quick addition, 60Hz can get coupled onto cables (shielded or unshielded) carrying much higher signals.  Where I work we build satellite test systems (they actually hook up the completed satellite to our system in a big ass vacuum chamber to test functionality before payload delivery....


  Therefore we ran fiber optic cables from satellite ground station support to the environmental vacuum chamber.  Another reason: security.

  So which one is posting useful facts.  An engineer who has a few decades of design experience.  Or the reader of a Wikipedia article who knows that harmonics from 60 Hertz (which means 180 and 300 hertz - sub audio)  will interfere with radio waves at much higher kilohertz.  One need not know anything about the person.  Only posts provided with numbers should be considered.

  This is not (unfortunately) about the OP's problem. This is about so many people who will post claims not supported by numbers.  Whose knowledge is insufficient to even understand a Wikipedia article.  How to know a post has no credibility?  The always required numbers and supporting reasons why are not provided.  No numbers is a first indication of junk science reasoning.  Or one would notice no hum on the phone.  No hum means no induced interference.

   Numbers says the OP has a signal strength problem.  Next step is to use those same numbers. Perform two experiments. Discover why that signal has been perverted.  And post that information so that the fewer who actually know this stuff can provide additional information.


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## Steevo (Dec 29, 2009)

He posted no numbers other than the number of times he used the treadmill. 


Good job, have a cookie. We use fiber in audio due to security also. Then we can use the blinding lazor light to blind those who try and torrent our fiber. While we are at it, we will just cut off everything from 300Hz and down as it isn't audio. Then on to the little people.



So far we have no numbers from your post either.

http://www.sncmfg.com/telecom/noise_protection/tlc-ht.html

https://help.attbusiness.net/index.cfm?fuseAction=home.viewContent&content_id=7541&category_id=7413


I know AT&T audio and data services are run by smurfs who run really fast through the wires, so they have no idea what noise on lines does to data connections, or voice. So really disregard both of those links.

http://wwwx.cs.unc.edu/help/network/info_sheets/modem/linenoise.html

I know the last one is old, but by dammed I ran a new line for my fast 56K modem back in the day and it helpe my connection speeds and stability. Moved it outside the apartment entirely. Used a 500' roll and ran it all the way down to the basement and solder the ends and ran a new ground for the system to a copper pipe.


But hey. I am just a 9 year old boy who knows only his faters love.



From a thread in another DSL related forum.

 Qwest Actiontec M1000

Alright here are my stats... it looks like i got disconnected a bunch today.

DSL Status
VPI:0
VCI:32
DSL Mode Setting: MMODE
DSL Negotiated Mode: T1.413
Connection Status: Showtime
Speed(down/up): 7168/704 Kbps
Number of Retrains: 24
Retrains Counter Elapsed Time: 10 Hours 11 Mins 19 Seconds
ATM QoS class: UBR
Near End CRC Errors (I/F): 179/0
Far End CRC Errors (I/F): 2457/0
Near End CRC(Within last 30 mins) (I/F): 0/0
Far End CRC(Within last 30 mins) (I/F): 0/0
Near End RS FEC (I/F): 57256/0
Far End RS FEC (I/F): 864937/0
Near End FEC(Within last 30 mins) (I/F): 0/0
Far End FEC(Within last 30 mins) (I/F): 0/0
Discarded Packets(Within last 30 mins): 0
SNR Margin (Downstream/Upstream): 10/3 
Attenuation (Downstream/Upstream): 17/5



Retrains? WTF they have to retrain magic elves on the fly? SNR, there is no noise to signal ratio here. Get that shit out!!!!

Attenuation, a big word that means everything is going to be OK, and you must smoke some reefer and listen to some Marley.


THere are numbers. My guess is the limited filtering capabililty makes this modem (the same I have) a poor choice in high noise situations.


What modem do you have Ford?


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 29, 2009)

westom said:


> Or one would notice no hum on the phone.  No hum means no induced interference.


FYI, there is a hum but it is very faint.


I took a 6' phone cord and plugged it into the nearest phone jack to where the phone box is, plugged it into my *Netopia 3341 ADSL bridge* (aka Motorola), and plugged it into one of my laptops via a 6" CAT6 UTP cable.  I let it connect and got the first set of numbers below.  I turned it off, waited a while, and turned it back on to get the second set:


```
Downstream  Upstream
                        ----------  ----------
SNR Margin:                   5.84       18.00 dB
Line Attenuation:            56.24       31.50 dB
Output Power:                17.75       12.15 dB

                        Downstream  Upstream
                        ----------  ----------
SNR Margin:                   6.09       18.00 dB
Line Attenuation:            55.78       31.50 dB
Output Power:                17.72       12.15 dB
```


This next set is from the same location (where the router is at) as the numbers I posted weeks ago.  Again, the difference between the first and second is a power cycle:

```
Downstream  Upstream
                        ----------  ----------
SNR Margin:                   5.87       17.00 dB
Line Attenuation:            58.28       31.50 dB
Output Power:                18.11       12.33 dB



                        Downstream  Upstream
                        ----------  ----------
SNR Margin:                   5.95       17.00 dB
Line Attenuation:            57.91       31.50 dB
Output Power:                18.05       12.33 dB
```

Remember, this second set runs through a surge protector and then a UPS before reaching the ADSL bridge.  The first set had was taken running off the laptop battery; the modem itself was plugged into the outlet with no surge protection or UPS whatsoever.


I know that the condition of the signal reaching the house isn't good because we are so far from the node.  It is vital that once it reaches the house, as little is lost as possible.  At bare minimum, I don't want the treadmill terminating the connection.  For the most part, it works fine so long as the treadmill stays off.



Edit: I bolded the ADSL bridge manufacturer/model number above.  The bridge has a crapload more information than I am posting here.  I figure that's all that is really important at least in regards to the treadmill killing it.


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## Steevo (Dec 29, 2009)

http://netopia.com/equipment/intl/emea/ch/pdf/f-3341ug.pdf Users manual


http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r19187256-Line-Problem-Disconnects-happening-more-frequently


Looking around the net you have some power left, but too much noise on your line for your modem to compensate for. You need to rerun your line and remove any extra taps, and make sure your filters are plugged in, and plugged in correctly.

Phone jack-->DSL Modem-->Filter-->Phone


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 29, 2009)

Know of any way to test if a filter is bad?  I have a lot of spares should one go bad...

Line Attenuation I have is to be expected being in excess of 2 miles from the office.


The ADSL bridge definitely isn't the problem.  The ISP tech guy said "it shouldn't even be working."  The bridge is much better than those Siemens ones they hand out.


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## Steevo (Dec 29, 2009)

Try unplugging everything on the line and just the modem by itself.


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## westom (Dec 29, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember, this second set runs through a surge protector and then a UPS before reaching the ADSL bridge.  The first set had was taken running off the laptop battery; the modem itself was plugged into the outlet with no surge protection or UPS whatsoever.


  Does not matter what powers a laptop.  What powers that DSL modem?  Two tests were listed.  First test: get DSL numbers when modem is connected directly to AC mains - not even via a protector or UPS (you already have those numbers).  Then power modem from that UPS battery.  UPS plugged into nothing when it powers the DSL modem.  Now, do those noise generating devices cause DSL signal loss (as even indicated on DSL front panel light)?

  Disconnect those protectors.  Never connect that phone line via a UPS.  Both devices can be destructive to DSL's radio waves.  Does nothing useful for hardware protection.

 Second test: DSL modem must make a direct connection to the telcos DSLAM (located in their building).  No power strip protector nor UPS connected to any phone line.

  Do not connect the DSL modem to any other household connector.  Second test demands that the DSL modem connect direct to telco wires - one test without any other house wire connected.  Can be accomplished multiple ways.  For example, if you have an NID box, then open the "Customer Access" side.  All your phone lines will connect to their wires via a phone jack.  Unplug the 'house' phone jack.  Connect your DSL mode directly to that box. Now your DSL modem connects directly and only to the telco DSLAM - nothing else to subvert that signal.  What is the DSL signal strength?

  Another method to make that connection.  All household wires connect to a terminal block.  Disconnect all household wires (after recording on paper what color connects to what).  Only connection to that block is your DSL modem.  (This test done with the modem powered by anything - probably AC mains.) 

  If necessary, go to Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, any hardware store, Walmart, etc to buy a small phone line block and a foot of 24 AWG wire.  Use that assembly, if necessary to connect the modem direct to the phone line.  But you must connect the DSL and only the DSL modem to that phone line.

  BTW, any 'splitter' must also connect a DSL modem directly to telcos wires.  But during this second test, not even the splitter should connect to the DSL modem.

  Signal strength numbers posted previously (less than 20 dB) are for any DSL at the maximum distance from the telco's CO.  Don't worry about that distance.  You should have full dBs at your telco connection regardless of how far from the CO you are.  Do tests and report numbers.  

  Appreciate what both tests do. First is the DSL modem (and only the DSL modem) powered by a UPS (that connects to no AC mains).  DSL modem powered only from a UPS battery. Then trigger all noise creating devices.  Does noise still cause DSL signal drop? 

  Second test is to connect direct only to telcos wires.  No telephone or household phone wire to the telco wire.  Only your DSL modem is connected.  Obviously this is a perfect test to determine which side of the subscriber interface is defective - your wires or theirs. 

  All reported signal strength numbers say you have virtually zero DSL.  Notice that Go-Nogo testing never reported completely defective DSL.  You have a completely defective DSL regardless of whether you have internet access. This is why numbers are so important.  Without numbers, you would never know your DSL is completely defective.

  So, why is your signal strength a completely defective 'less than 10 dB'?  

  That new information - surge protectors, et al - get rid of them.  Ignore wacky myths that those devices do anything useful. If salesmen could make more money, then they would sell them to protect you from bin Laden.   Inside that telco NID box is the best telephone surge protector available.  Superior to anything found in a power strip or UPS.  A protector that (unlike those other devices) does not degrade DSL signal strength.

  Of course the NID (like any protector) can only provide surge protection if a ground wire is short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same earth ground used by everything else (cable TV, satellite dish, AC electric).  IOW while you are there, also inspect for that critically important connection to an earth ground electrode (not to a water pipe).

  New information - the faint hum.  New third test is to identify another potential failure.    You have some way of connecting only directly to the telco's wire.  Connect that same hardwired phone (not a portable phone due to filters inside portable phones) direct to telco's wires via your Walmart purchased test fixture or directly to the Customer Access jack inside the NID box.  Does that faint hum disappear?  This third test reports on things too numerous (for now) to discuss.

 Those tests will result in knowledge about how your phones work so that you never have to spend $hundreds for interior phone line repairs.

  Good luck with your experiments.  Looking forward to reading new numbers.


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## westom (Dec 30, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Know of any way to test if a filter is bad?


Fitlers do not harm DSL signals.  DSL signals are radio waves.  Any other device eats those radio waves.  Filters only block radio waves (DSL) and conduct audio waves (telephone) so that other household appliances do not eat radios wave.

  Those two tests are for locating that and about 30 other potential problems.  Testing so many things all during one fast test. Otherwise test for each possible problem - one painful test at a time.  Simpler: do those two simple tests to eliminate a 'bad' filter and 30 other suspects immediately.


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## Steevo (Dec 30, 2009)

Filters do harm the "radio waves", and they are on the phone line to filter the noise that can be sent out by the phone in the same frequency range the DSL modem is using to communicate. The filter must not be installed on the line before the DSL modem. the line coming out of the DSL modem might not have a filter pre-installed so install one there too.


And I meant to disconnect all the phones and other devices connected except the DSL modem. Including your dish network line, as they hijack the signal too. 


Westom, please don't post nonsense, the filters don't eat. They are a simple set of caps to filter or remove any frequency above a certain threshold and prevent interferance with the DSL frequency range. There are no "radio waves" there are only time division multiplexed frequencies, no radio modems, no wifi, no dishes, no eating, no serving of food. Just electrons moving through wire.


Here is a technical description...............or not. But it shows the two small caps and coils.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdNG-wQgVlI


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 30, 2009)

I've gotten numerous surges through the phone line.  It's taken out at least a dozen surge protectors and once, a $150 UPS.  The way it is wired now, the surge takes out the cheap surge protector before it hits the UPS.  It is cheaper to replace a $20 surge protector than a $150 UPS or $100 ADSL bridge.  The signal loss between them is less than 2 dB.


Judging by the logs, I have >95% up time on the average day.


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## westom (Dec 30, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I've gotten numerous surges through the phone line.  It's taken out at least a dozen surge protectors and once, a $150 UPS.


We can correct that problem later.  A protector damaged by a surge means you had no surge protection.  First get the facts and numbers from those tests.  What those tests might discover may also explain your surge problem.  Or the reverse may be true - may explain your your near zero DSL signal.  Do the tests including the third one using a hardwired phone.  This new information further accuses one of my many suspects.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm replacing the phone lines first (CAT3 UTP to CAT6 STP).




westom said:


> A protector damaged by a surge means you had no surge protection.


Um?  I have two surge protectors that no longer carry dial tone through the RJ11 jacks as proof of the surges they intercepted.  It's pretty obvious when a surge comes through because the internet connection is lost until it is replaced.  If memory serves, every time it happened was during a thunderstorm with ominous lightning strikes.  The house wasn't hit--it only had to strike close.

And to those of you who think lightning can't travel through phone lines would be wrong.  I had a surge protector with black soot firing out from the RJ11 jacks.  My mistake was using it to plug in another computer no realizing it had been damaged.  It saved one computer and killed another.  I disposed of it after the second incident so it would never be used again.


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## Steevo (Dec 30, 2009)

Go buy a roll of four wire from radio shack, solder the ends and then put a bit of dielectric grease and tape them. If the service to your house is only two wire, then ground the other two to a water pipe or earth rod and don't attach them at the other end to the jack, but do attach them to each other.


I had a few hundred feet of the 500 I had from years ago and rewired my home.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049730

Like this.

Make sure your home is grounded at the entry point. Either through unbroken copper pipe to the outside or through a earthing rod.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103057&CAWELAID=107597293


This will work for a phone line, but if you have poor conductivity or the abillity use a 8', dig a small hole at least 1 ft down and pour in a cup of salt and then fill it with water and drive the rod in, the salt draws in water and creates a much better grounding surface.


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## andrew123 (Jan 18, 2010)

*try this.*

install a pots splitter in your phone box or demarcation point. dsl performance can be extremely affected by short bridge taps/line extensions (long ones aren't as bad), the signal reflections kill a connection in no time, and you get the added benefit of not having to use those pesky filters on your phone, as well as being able to dedicate a jack to your adsl, you also free up a bit of line capacity and get a stronger signal to the modem.

Also, your phone company technician should check to see if there are bridge taps along the FX pairs in your neighborhood (im assuming you have aerial plant in your neighborhood, if it's encapsulated/underground, then check to see if you have line shorts).

At home, check your resistance to ground at your modem's power receptacle. DSL works best when the resistance is 6ohms or less, as in order for QAM to work properly for the DSL signal it needs a solid ground reference, and grounding issues will cause disconnects.. your treadmill is returning all the juice it's taking from the lines into your houses neutral connector, which itself is grounded outside of your service box, it all comes together, what you're probably experiencing is feedback on the ground due to a difference in potential from the ground at your receptacle and the one at your treadmill, i've had a few problems like this that i've fixed for our customers (I'm an I&R technician for Telus).

The biggest thing tho, is get a pots splitter if you don't have one, they make a huge difference.


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## andrew123 (Jan 18, 2010)

Put a prot on your demarcation point, they're cheap and protect all your lines right at the demarc. 



FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm replacing the phone lines first (CAT3 UTP to CAT6 STP).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## andrew123 (Jan 18, 2010)

He maybe was referring to how phone lines (especially earth-ground lines) act as antennas on aerial plant, especially if the grounding is poor along the pole-to-pole spans. You can and will pick up radio frequencies on a phone line, and they will interfere with a DSL signal, especially in the upper bins.

In terms of signal 'hijacking', the best way to install dsl is demarc -> prot -> pots splitter  LINE --> pots splitter ATU-M t/r to a dedicated jack for the modem, and pots splitter PHONE t/r to the rest of the internal house wiring. ... and no need for filters after you get one of those installed, and they're cheap!  

AFAIK DSL uses QAM not TDM (unless there are other variants that I'm not familiar with which is certainly possible).



Steevo said:


> Filters do harm the "radio waves", and they are on the phone line to filter the noise that can be sent out by the phone in the same frequency range the DSL modem is using to communicate. The filter must not be installed on the line before the DSL modem. the line coming out of the DSL modem might not have a filter pre-installed so install one there too.
> 
> And I meant to disconnect all the phones and other devices connected except the DSL modem. Including your dish network line, as they hijack the signal too.
> 
> ...


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## andrew123 (Jan 18, 2010)

Steevo said:


> I reran all my phone and cable to make sure I had good signal and clean power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DSL isn't 'audio', it's an AC Signal that is organized into QAM 'Constellations' that are sent down in discrete bandwidth separated bins, which is why line attenuation causes a drop in the amount of available bandwidth, while the SNR due to induction, noise etc, causes data corruption. Older DMT1 didn't have line profiling like ADSL2+ has, which is why it was such a common occurance to have to power cycle the modem in order to get your internet connection back. AFAIK we don't use triple 20Hz for home power, it's a single phase 60Hz, three-phase is 60HZ as well, but each phase is 120 degree from the other two phases... I do agree with your last point about the bad grounds, as that is certainly an accurate description.



Steevo said:


> Impedance matched phone line ( a accidental effect) can cause a phase shift in the standing wave created by power line interfereance and the start of the resonant effect can be created by the initial line tuning by the DSL modem. The treadmill causes a slight phase change in the circut thereby breaking the standing wave, or reinforcing it.



I don't understand this last concept, as impedance matching is a good thing. There is a reason why power companies penalize industries and factories that have a bad power factor, if your impedance is matched, that means all you effectively see is the resistance component of impedance, not the inductive or capacitive reactance... a pi-filter or capacitor bank can be used to clean up a powerline quite nicely.

Also, be aware that not all phone cable twists are equal.. in a all UTP CAT5/CAT6 pairs, the white_blue/blue, white_orange/orange are your voice pairs, The white_brown/brown white_green/green pairs are your data pairs, because they have more twist.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2010)

We got the solid CAT6 FTP (Foil Twisted Pair--shielded, but more specific) and ran a line directly from the ADSL bridge phone jack all the way to the box.  The SNR and other stats still suck but treadmills and reostats are no longer causing disconnects.


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## westom (Mar 16, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> We got the solid CAT6 FTP (Foil Twisted Pair--shielded, but more specific) and ran a line directly from the ADSL bridge phone jack all the way to the box.  The SNR and other stats still suck but treadmills and reostats are no longer causing disconnects.


  Which is expected because you cured symptoms rather than identify and fix the problem.  Listed were tests that could have identified the problem quickly.  To obtain useful replies here, the results of those tests must be reported. 

  With a dedicated ADSL wire, those tests are mechanically easier to perform.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2010)

The problem was using a phone split multiple times in two separate locations and several yards of that very line was running parralel to power lines.  Data/phone cables should always be at least a foot away from power lines.  In my case, the phone cable was literally wrapped around a power cable.

I'm too far away (over two miles) from my ISP's hub to see any of the stats improve from changing only 50' of that cable to high quality stuff.


It tests a little bit better than it did a week ago (ping is a bit lower):





I guess the real indicator of the change would be the number of errors.  Ah well, see how it goes for a month and how many disconnects my server logs.


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## westom (Mar 16, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The problem was using a phone split multiple times in two separate locations and several yards of that very line was running parallel to power lines.  Data/phone cables should always be at least a foot away from power lines.  In my case, the phone cable was literally wrapped around a power cable.
> 
> I'm too far away (over two miles) from my ISP's hub ...


   Where to find a solution was defined long ago. "Obviously DSL signal strength is defective. A solution that requires viewing circuits from a building wide perspective including wiring and connections at the service entrance."

  Reverse polarity was an obvious myth; should have been ignored immediately. Cat3 was more than sufficient. Rheostat and treadmill noise causes no interference if the actual problem is first identified, then removed. You still have done nothing to identify the 'usual suspects'.   Cat 6 shielding only shows a near zero improvement because the major defect remains.  Separation from power cables is a popular myth - as you now know.

   We put those signal cables inches from power cables in the same trench - for thousands of feet - without problem.  Another reason why we know without doubt that power cables were irrelevant - previously posted: "That cable can be run next to the power line and still problems must not exist. DSL is radio waves. Power lines are audio. If running the phone wires near power cables cause any problems, then phones will have obvious hum on them. No hum. No interference from nearby power lines to conventional phone service or DSL."

  Two miles from the CO says you are more than close enough - should have much higher dB numbers.  Length or type of house wires is irrelevant to your symptoms.  Those two tests are for things you have not even considered and that cannot be discussed until dB numbers are delivered.   Currently all labor and other tests did not and would not alleviate what causes that bad DSL.  After all that work, you still have no idea where the defect resides.

  Entertained was bad advice.  andrew123 also made that obvious.

  Do those two tests.  Report the important dB numbers. Ignore any reports that measure speed - that is not yet relevant.  I told you Cat6 would do virtually nothing because my extensive education is also tempered by generations of experience. Do those numbers mean anything?  Too many decades of engineering knowledge keeps telling you the only thing that will identify or solve that DSL problem.  Why do you keep ignoring you only useful suggestions?  How blunt need I be?  You saw from Cat6 what I said it would do.  How many times must I be correct before you finally do the only useful test - those two experiments?  What must I do - tell you my name is god?


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## Steevo (Mar 16, 2010)

Isn't curing symptoms fixing the problem?

Symptom. Treadmill causes DSL to crash.
Cause. Interference
Fix. Shielded wiring

Check one for the problems. The SNR could be caused by a faulty ground on the ISP side, nothing he can do about that. Searching around many people have had problems with......mains hum.....or other interference from bridge taps. That means the whole rest of the unterminated wiring acts like a antenna. (yes I just kinda quoted that) I know about termination as I work with CAN bus all day. no termination means signal reflection, copious capacitive crap, and chasing ghosts.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2010)

I know 1 to 2 dB of the SNR is because of my double surge protecting.  The ground at the box "appears to be good."  If it should be higher than that considering my circumstances, perhaps I should call them about that specific issue?  Then again, I think my Netopic ADSL bridge measures SNR differently than their equipment because it holds a solid connection at SNR levels much lower than their equipment can.




westom said:


> Two miles from the CO says you are more than close enough - should have much higher dB numbers.


The cables are most likely very old and very weathered.  They won't get as far as they would have if they were recently laid.




westom said:


> Those two tests are for things you have not even considered and that cannot be discussed until dB numbers are delivered.


The numbers are just slightly better than they are in this post:
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=1672768&postcount=5

I'll go grab them quick-a-minute (the following are all surge protected).


BEFORE CABLE CHANGE|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|5.40|18.00
Line Attenuation|58.91|31.50
Output Power|18.42|12.15


NOW - BEFORE POWER CYCLE|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|6.10|18.00
Line Attenuation|58.19|31.50
Output Power|17.83|12.15



NOW - AFTER POWER CYCLE|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|5.76|18.00
Line Attenuation|57.74|31.50
Output Power|17.83|12.15
Looks to me like it improved going from 12/12/09 to today.  That's the first time I saw an SNR of 6 or greater while using the surge protectors.


Edit: Because I am tired of looking this stuff up:
Signal to Noise - Higher is better (9+ preferred).
Line Attenuation - Lower is better (0 is ideal).
Output Power - ISP set according to SNR; the lower the SNR, the higher the output power (~18 is maximum).


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## westom (Mar 16, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I know 1 to 2 dB of the SNR is because of my double surge protecting.  The ground at the box "appears to be good."


  Most of that was never relevant. Do you want to solve the problem?  Then do the tests.  There is no other fast track to a solution.

  Restore the Cat3 wire back.  Undo everything else. When the problem is solved, than all those other symptoms also completely disappear.  So many reasons for your problem are not discussed.  And will not be.  The reasons are too many. The tests too simple.  A refusal to perform simple tests - baffling.

  Stop trying to fix things (symptoms) that do not cause your problem.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2010)

westom said:


> Disconnect those protectors.  Never connect that phone line via a UPS.  Both devices can be destructive to DSL's radio waves.  Does nothing useful for hardware protection.
> 
> Second test: DSL modem must make a direct connection to the telcos DSLAM (located in their building).  No power strip protector nor UPS connected to any phone line.


Those two tests?


Edit: I found them now.  The laptop that has a working battery is in a truck somewhere so most of those will have to wait.


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## 95Viper (Mar 16, 2010)

@westom> I know this will probably be useless, as you seem to know all and equate yourself to a god (per your post), but...

1. yes, copper lines are inches away from power lines; at least 24 inches in buried plant and 36 inches in aerial.  This is for safety and to reduce the chance of inducing noise.
One of Ford's problems is probably, that, not only were they( referring to his inside wire ) next to the power, they were more than likely wrapped, this can/will sometimes induce noise.

2. Digital Subscriber Lines are not radio waves.  They are a voltage signal of a suitable frequency range which is then applied to copper wire for transmission. 

To be simple for you, here is a simplified definition of Radio Waves: Radio waves are a type of electromagnetic radiation with wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum longer than infrared light.

Electromagnetic radiation:Electromagnetic radiation travels by means of oscillating electromagnetic fields that pass through the air and/or the vacuum of space.


3.  You cannot tell him his is not to far from the CO, as you do not have the information of: bridge taps, wire gauge, bonding quality or other test info on his build by the phone company.

4. He is fixing what he can on his end, as he has no real control over the outside plant facilities.
All he can do is report the trouble, but if it is at the premise and he has no wire maintenance plan, then it is his problem or they would charge him.

And, why would he restore the wire back and other fixes; they hurt nothing.  If the problem is still there, then he can still troubleshoot the problem; if not, it is fixed to a usable solution.

@FordGT90Concept>  I hope you get this all ironed out and resolved.  Goodluck, with it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2010)

I summed up your (westom) tests:
1) Run modem off of UPS (no protectors).
2) Run modem off of NID box (no protectors).
3) Run phone off of NID box to listen for hum.

I can do 1 later today (it is almost 3 AM and the beeping would wake people up).  2 will have to wait for the laptop.  2 and 3, I have to check the NID box to see what my options are in there.




95Viper said:


> And, why would he restore the wire back and other fixes; they hurt nothing.  If the problem is still there, then he can still troubleshoot the problem; if not, it is fixed to a usable solution.


Exactly, so as far as testing 1 and 2, I will not be checking if the DSL drops a connection using the treadmill.  It will on the old cables and it won't on the new cables for obvious reasons (proximity to active power cables and poor condition of the lines).

I will note, in advance, that both 1 and 2 will get higher numbers just because it isn't running through two surge protectors (as expected) but, as stated previously, there will always be at least one surge protector on the line because I'm not about to risk $200+ in equipment when a $20 surge protector could prevent it.  This should tell you something about the condition of the phone lines in the house: my phone wires are catching the electro-static pulse off of lightning and several things are known: a) the NID surge protector does not catch it, b) my cheapo surge protectors do (three-four different brands at that), and c) it is definitely coming from the phone lines and not the modem/printer/computer end (proven through multiple surge protectors in sequence).

I know you are trying to isolate the problem which is why I will try to do it but, no matter the results, that surge protector ain't going anywhere (or the one that replaces it when it goes silent).


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## westom (Mar 16, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Edit: I found them now.  The laptop that has a working battery is in a truck somewhere so most of those will have to wait.


  You don't need the laptop.  Whereas the original test called for connecting the modem right at the service entrance, the CAT6 wire is doing that exact same thing.

  Router/modem connected to the Cat6 which connects directly to the service entrance.  Tests done both before changing anything and after.  dB numbers both before and after changes provide the essential facts (speed tests are not sufficient information).

  Yes, that means modem/router connected to Cat 6 wire without those ineffective surge protectors.  Nothing but a direct connection from modem/router to the service entrance.  Numbers takes before and after those 'test' changes are made.


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## westom (Mar 16, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I know you are trying to isolate the problem which is why I will try to do it but, no matter the results, that surge protector ain't going anywhere


  The only protector that does effective protection is installed by the telco on every phone line long before you or I existed.  Any protector that does not have the always essential 'less than 10 foot' connection to single point earth ground is not doing effective protection. And we also traced surge damage to modems because that protector was too close to electronics and too far from earth ground.  

  BTW, these protectors were so well designed even 50 years ago as to typically not harm DSL.  New (ineffective) protector will also harm DSL signals because they are profit centers; not effective protectors.

  Part of the so many things we are analyzing is the already existing 'whole house' protector required to be installed on every subscriber interface.  You may want to go find it since we may be moving to that 'suspect' after important dB numbers are obtained.

  That protector will have a green or gray 12 AWG solid copper wire from the protector, less than 10 feet', the same earth ground rod that must also connect to the breaker box (and cable TV and satellite dish wire, etc).

  Surges from any wire inside the house are made completely irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance.  Your concern is the surge that does damage - which is why telcos install a 'whole house' protector on everyone’s phone line.  Your protectors adjacent to the DSL modem do not claim to do surge protection, will degrade DSL signals, and can even make surge damage easier.  The reason why are not relevant here.  Just provided to demonstrate the difference between the few who actually know this stuff and a majority trained only in retail store myths.

  At your convenience, go view the telco installed 'whole house' protector.  It may be one of the 15 items that were causing your problems.  We will know better only after you have dB numbers from your tests.


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## westom (Mar 16, 2010)

95Viper said:


> 3.  You cannot tell him his is not to far from the CO, as you do not have the information of: bridge taps, wire gauge, bonding quality or other test info on his build by the phone company.


  Until he has numbers, we know that DSL over three miles must have higher dB numbers.  Only after we have facts from that test can we move on to such problems as stray loading coils, bridge taps, etc.  All those problems are removed by the telco at their cost.  But they will not do it until the problem is first identified.  Just more reasons why those two tests should have been done months ago when suggested.

  We know this.  At two miles away, he has a worse signal than others get being three miles away.  Long before fixing anything, first those numbers must be obtained.  Long before fixing anything (ie removing bridge taps), facts must be collected.  That and maybe 14 other possible problems start with numbers from two tests.


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## Velvet Wafer (Mar 16, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I noticed one thing: the phone cord that runs to the ADSL bridge is running parrallel (through the same holes) to two 110v cables.  It is very possible that one of those cords ends up at that outlet.
> 
> Is it possible that running the treadmill is exciting one of those lines and interfering with the phone line?  At this point, that would be the most logical explaination.



as far as i know, when data cables and electric lines run along very tight, signals from each other, may "jump" the cable. i once read hackers used this a few times, to catch off data with special devices. i use a devolo power lan, which utilizes an existant electric line as data cable, so data transfer is in fact given, if a signal is transmitted. i dont know, if massive electron flow in one (or 2) of the power lines,can jump the cable, and disrupt the signal. but it seems possible, regarding the circumstances. im no expert, but i find it sounds logical


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2010)

Update:

The NID box only has 8 prongs in it with a mess of cords.  There is nothing resembling a phone jack in there.

There is now only one surge protector the phone line is going through.  The UPS no longer touches the phone line.

1 & 2) Results are below.

3) The phone plugged into the CAT6 FTP cable is "crystal clear" and much improved from before hand.



1 PROTECTED + PHONES|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|5.99|18.00
Line Attenuation|56.75|31.50
Output Power|17.75|12.15
Data Rate|3680|448


2 UNPROTECTED + PHONES|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|6.83|18.00
Line Attenuation|56.89|31.50
Output Power|18.05|12.15
Data Rate|3712|448
Test #1:


3 UNPROTECTED + PHONES + UPS POWERED|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|6.60|18.00
Line Attenuation|57.11|31.50
Output Power|18.14|12.15
Data Rate|3712|448
Test #2:


4 UNPROTECTED - PHONES|DOWN|UP
Signal to Noise|6.71|18.00
Line Attenuation|56.37|31.50
Output Power|18.11|12.15
Data Rate|3712|448

The treadmill killing the internet has returned.  Cause: 75' CAT6 Crossover cable connecting my gigabit switch to the router.  Plug it in while the treadmill is running, it disconnects.  Unplug it while the treadmill is running, it connects.  This weekend, I will hopefully be replacing that CAT6 UTP cable with the good CAT6 FTP cable...

I hope that fixes it once and for all.  It would still be nice to have better numbers though.  That might be out of my realm of control though.


Edit: I'm just gonna have to try stuff and update this thread when I find a final solution.  There's just too many variables yet.  For sure I am going to replace the 75' CAT6 UTP cable connecting my two networks.  I will probably also replace all the phone lines in the house.  After that, I have no idea what.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 20, 2010)

We got the network cable replaced and all phone lines in the house are now CAT6 STP.  So far, everything looks good.  I just cleared the logs on my server and will check it in a month to see how many disconnects I've had during that period.  If it does drop, there's absolutely nothing left we could do in the house which means it is my ISP's problem.

The treadmill only causes a tenth of a volt drop in voltage across the house on startup--not enough to cause any problems.


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## westom (Mar 21, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> We got the network cable replaced and all phone lines in the house are now CAT6 STP.


  That cable change will do nothing.    The telco wire that is only Cat3  goes for miles.  Does not even meet those Cat6 requirements. And must not have any interference.  Your treadmill noise is obvious in the numbers.  See that dB number.  That number is near zero.  Every noise generator will interfere with you DSL.  And so your speed will go up and down all day long.

  Ignore those speed numbers. They tell you nothing useful other than when your internet is slowest.   See that dB number?  Did it change with the CAT6 STP?  If not, then Cat6 has accomplished nothing.  And speed number will keep going up and down.

  Now, important details.  When you performed test 2, did you disconnect every other wire in the NID from the phone line?  Was the CAT 6 the only wire connected to the phone wire?  That was critically important.  I see nothing that confirms test 2 was performed accurately.  I see text "4 unprotected phones" that implies all wires were not completely disconnected inside the NID.  All phones should have been dead during test 2.  Your numbers 

  Moving on.  Described earlier is the ground wire that must be from the NID to earth ground.  Previous posts said you had to find that wire.  Now. Test 3.  Temporarily disconnect that wire from the earth ground rod.  And then take dB numbers again.  Major information is in those numbers.  Also include whether those other wires were or were not connected when you take dB numbers with the ground wire temporarily disconnected.  Best is if those other wires are not connected during the test.

  So we should have Test 1 with everything connected.  Test 2 with only the Cat 6 wire connected to the NID phone line.  And Test 3 with the ground wire temporarily disconnected.

  When done, restore (reclamp, bolt, etc) that ground wire to that same electrode that the breaker box connects to.  With numbers from all three tests, what follows will be a conclusion.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 1, 2010)

We have determined (through making everything right in the house) that the problem is the lines, not us.  The signal is so weak reaching here that enough interference, no matter the source, will cause it to drop.  The neighbors (like 100 feet away with the same ISP) have the same problem.

My ISP finally admitted that they were low and a local tech support rep is supposed to call here tomorrow.


The only disconnects I experience now are as the treadmill spins the motor up (for about a minute).




westom said:


> See that dB number?  Did it change with the CAT6 STP?


It was always in the 5's before the CAT6, now it is in the 6's unless the treadmill is running.  The ADSL gateway disconnects if it gets below 5.  My ISP said it should be above 8.

Speed does not change.

The treadmill just started and this time, I didn't get disconnected.


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## westom (Apr 1, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> We have determined (through making everything right in the house) that the problem is the lines, not us.


  The dB numbers said that if someone spit on the wires, that ADSL would go crazy.  And again, the speed tests were virtually useless other than to suggest something somewhere in the world was defective.  Those dB numbers are the only fact to concentrate on.

  You did not report back on dB numbers during the ground wire disconnect.  Remember, this is a two way street.  Provide every detail so that I too prosper from the experience.  IOW you did not report the only critical information - those dB numbers. Temporary ground wire disconnect resulted in no dB change?  Please report the numbers because the #1 and whole idea of fixing something is to learn more. The only thing posted that reports most anything significant are dB numbers.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 1, 2010)

They are doing a line repair today.  As far as I am concerned, the problem is out of my control/responsibility and as such, this issue is resolved.


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## westom (Apr 1, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They are doing a line repair today.  As far as I am concerned, the problem is out of my control/responsibility and as such, this issue is resolved.


  But that is not the point.  This is a two way street.  It was not just about you.  When do we get to learn something?


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 14, 2010)

The problem appears to be resolved with the treadmill but light rheostats still cause a disconnect.  What I did was:
-Cleaned up wall the wiremesses outside (got rid of old unused phone and TV cables).
-Used electrical tape to tape up all exposed wires inside the telphone box outside.  That included taping up two of the CAT3 phone cable that weren't in use, a CAT5 that was likely formerly line 2, and another CAT5 that was formerly line 3.
-I riped out the only remaining CAT5e cable that was connected for phone use but not shielded and replaced it with a CAT6 FTP line inside the house.

Now there are only two lines connected to the box outside: one that goes directly to the ADSL mode and one that goes inside and then is split for all the phones in the house.  Both are entirely CAT 6 FTP.

The changes above also fixed the clicking in all phones and a constant chirp in some of the phones.


We might know why the rheostats are causing problem and it could be because the electrical boxes have bad/no grounds.  Come spring, we plan to drive new grounds and hopefully that will finish the problems once and for all.


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## theonedub (Dec 14, 2010)

Did Frontier do anything on their end to help get you better signal?


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 14, 2010)

Very doubtful.


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