# AMD Zen 4 Reportedly Features a 29% IPC Boost Over Zen 3



## Uskompuf (Feb 10, 2021)

While AMD has only released a few Zen 3 processors which are still extremely hard to purchase for RRP we are already receiving leaks on their successors. Zen 3 Milan processors will likely be the final generation of AM4 processors before the switch to AM5. AMD appears to be preparing a bridging series of processors based on the Zen 3+ architecture before the release of Zen 4. Zen 3+ is expected to be AMD's first AM5 CPU design and should bring small IPC gains similar to the improvements from Zen to Zen+ in the range of 4% - 7%. The Zen 3+ processors will be manufactured on TSMC's refined N7 node with a potential announcement sometime later in 2021.

Zen 4 is expected to launch the next year in 2022 and will bring significant improvements potentially up to 40% over Zen 3 after clock boosts according to ChipsandChesse. A Zen 4 Genoa engineering sample reportedly performed 29% faster than an existing Zen 3 CPUs at the same clock speeds and core counts. The Zen 4 architecture will be manufactured on a 5 nm node and could potentially bring another core count increase. This would be one of the largest generational improvements for AMD since the launch of Ryzen if true. Take all this information with a heavy dose of skepticism as with any rumor.



 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Vendor (Feb 10, 2021)

wow that's amazing, i hope it's true, will totally blow intel out of the water


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## thesmokingman (Feb 10, 2021)

Vendor said:


> wow that's amazing, i hope it's true, will totally blow intel out of the water



They already do. And Intel's 7nm is delayed yet again.


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## john_ (Feb 10, 2021)

How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?


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## piloponth (Feb 10, 2021)

Weird, that Zen3+ will be AM5 socket.
I'm waiting for 5900XT as a 5900X with improved clocks, but immediatelly appliable in current motherboards. This idea is now destroyed.


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## neatfeatguy (Feb 10, 2021)

Damn....these are already scalped.....


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## GoldenX (Feb 10, 2021)

Great!
Let's talk lower priced Zen3 products...


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## nguyen (Feb 10, 2021)

hopefully AM5 CPU bracket is backward compatible with AM4 so that AM4 CPU cooler would work with AM5


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## Legacy-ZA (Feb 10, 2021)

I wanted to upgrade my CPU/Mobo/RAM but I wonder if I shouldn't just wait a little longer, the new socket will probably give more available upgrade paths further on in the future and wasn't it supposed to use PCIe 5.0 / DDR5 memory too?


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## Erazor6000 (Feb 10, 2021)

After all, Zen4 will be out in 2022.
Not this year.


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## Mouth of Sauron (Feb 10, 2021)

"Leaked rumours" also suggest 29% better availability... I don't put much trust in those...


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## dont whant to set it"' (Feb 10, 2021)

Saving money for new pc build.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

Legacy-ZA said:


> I wanted to upgrade my CPU/Mobo/RAM but I wonder if I shouldn't just wait a little longer, the new socket will probably give more available upgrade paths further on in the future and wasn't it supposed to use PCIe 5.0 / DDR5 memory too?


I decided to wait with the upgrade. In any case, if I won't be able to get a ZEN4 due to supply issues, I will definitely buy a Zen3 hoping the supply issues will be resolved back then. Maybe price will drop a bit who knows.


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## PanicLake (Feb 10, 2021)

john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?


How? Competition...
Monopoli is BAD!


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## Cobain (Feb 10, 2021)

Vendor said:


> wow that's amazing, i hope it's true, will totally blow intel out of the water



Any CPU line up with actual stock/availability blows everything out of the water. Even if it is 14nm.

So AMD should worry about that first.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Feb 10, 2021)

No more milking cunsumers for less than 10% increases in performance as Intel did. AMD is on a roll with more huge gains.


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## 1d10t (Feb 10, 2021)

How this gonna fare in today boomers benchmark?
Like maxon cineprice and futuremark 3dstock?
Cus single thread, multi thread, boost clock and gaming are so millennials.


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## kayjay010101 (Feb 10, 2021)

john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?


What happened is people realized Intel was sitting on their ass, and AMD stopped eating crayons. Then when Ryzen came along and actually delivered a new and competitive product we got this wonderful thing called competition.


Legacy-ZA said:


> I wanted to upgrade my CPU/Mobo/RAM but I wonder if I shouldn't just wait a little longer, the new socket will probably give more available upgrade paths further on in the future and wasn't it supposed to use PCIe 5.0 / DDR5 memory too?


My opinion at least is that DDR5 will be a lot more expensive than DDR4 to begin with. DDR5 DIMMs won't be any higher frequency than DDR4 modules to begin with but they'll definitely come with a premium. This happens with every DDR generation, DDR4 didn't become worth it until a couple generations in. You'd be hard-pressed to find anything faster than 2400MHz during the first year, which DDR3 already hit for cheaper. PCIe 5.0 will also be completely unused in anything in the consumer space for years. The datacenter is just now utilizing the full bandwidth of 4.0 with devices like Honeybadgers and dual 100Gb NICs. It might be useful for bifurcation but that won't be a thing in the consumer space either. Personally I'll see if Zen4 is worth it in regards to performance and core counts, DDR5 and PCIe 5.0 is mostly irrelevant to me. If this 29% figure is true I might just upgrade (though I already have a 5950X and definitely don't _need _to..)


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## ZoneDymo (Feb 10, 2021)

again just seems like this made up by someone who wants people to be ultimately disappointed with AMD


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## BorisDG (Feb 10, 2021)

Same like Zen 3 had like 50%+ more than Zen 2 and at the end was like 10-15%.

i.e. those AMD presentation slides.


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## agentnathan009 (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Same like Zen 3 had like 50%+ more than Zen 2 and at the end was like 10-15%.
> 
> i.e. those AMD presentation slides.


I think that you are confusing things, AMD never said 50% IPC gains for CPUs, but they did say 50% efficiency gains for GPUs compared to previous generations. AMD never once, that I recall, stated 50% gains for CPU performance, only efficiency gains, i.e. less power to do the same amount of work. If you compare zen 3 to the original zen cores there might be a 50% IPC increase but that is not gen on gen but one gen versus the original gen.


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## BorisDG (Feb 10, 2021)

agentnathan009 said:


> I think that you are confusing things, AMD never said 50% IPC gains for CPUs, but they did say 50% efficiency gains for GPUs compared to previous generations. AMD never once, that I recall, stated 50% gains for CPU performance, only efficiency gains, i.e. less power to do the same amount of work. If you compare zen 3 to the original zen cores there might be a 50% IPC increase but that is not gen on gen but one gen versus the original gen.


Am I?


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## agentnathan009 (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Am I?


Ok, so they indicated 50% gains with League of Legends, is that strictly IPC, better coding to work with Ryzen uArch, higher clock speeds, faster memory support, all of the above plus other things? Those are gaming improvements and for a select few title that are benefitted so generously, I'm speaking of general CPU performance. Average all of those numbers out between games and where does that land you with gen on gen performance gain?


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## BorisDG (Feb 10, 2021)

They can do the same with Zen 4 like in this image. Picking the best example. I doubt Zen 3 is 50% better than Zen 2 in LoL tbh.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> They can do the same with Zen 4 like in this image. Picking the best example. I doubt Zen 3 is 50% better than Zen 2 in LoL tbh.


You are saying nonsense. 50% for League of legends in a one game scenario not overall performance.
And they didnt lie about it. 5900X has a 50% increase in performance in that particular case.
The IPC gain from zen 2 to zen 3 was 19% and that was also accurate.


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Am I?


Yes, you are. Numbers for individual games is a whole different thing.

AMD said 19 %, nothing else.







BorisDG said:


> They can do the same with Zen 4 like in this image. Picking the best example. I doubt Zen 3 is 50% better than Zen 2 in LoL tbh.


That image also shows a mere 5 % in another game = not picking the best example.
I doubt 50 % higher IPC as well, but this doesn't come from AMD.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2021)

Oh yay, head to head competition with Intel... I'm almost excited.

These are great performance improvements, the kind of thing we've all been waiting for, but don't worry, low supply and scalpers will ensure that these can only be bought from dodgy sellers on eBay at vastly inflated prices. That's not exciting.


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

There must be a one-click *Scalping@Home*, or *PCPartScalper* out there for consumers to scalp together their new build all by themselves, right? That would be the only way to beat the scalpers at their own game. Power to the people. Waiting for the scalpers to go away is like waiting for the next (next next) HW launch.


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## 1d10t (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Same like Zen 3 had like 50%+ more than Zen 2 and at the end was like 10-15%.
> 
> i.e. those AMD presentation slides.





BorisDG said:


> Am I?



Contradicting each time you post, it seems you stop reading after first number and find excuses as you go. Yeah, it was 50%, *more FPS*, comparing with *previous Ryzen 9 3900XT. *Now find that *IPC *in those slides.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Same like Zen 3 had like 50%+ more than Zen 2 and at the end was like 10-15%.
> 
> i.e. those AMD presentation slides.



Great to know you already have retail Zen4 samples and know how they perform.

You must be the scalper final boss


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## TheDeeGee (Feb 10, 2021)

Cool, but i've had my week and half experience with Zen3 already... no thank you


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## Shtb (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Am I?


1st video by "5900x league of legends" search in YT (vs 3900X): 







Avg fps in the end (10:45): 291 vs 158. This is 84.2% of increase, not +50%.


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## dont whant to set it"' (Feb 10, 2021)

@TheDeeGee  No wonder Intel looks more stable by sticking to its version of tried and true all the while subverting progress. Hey man/women I will not stop you paying Intel over a 1000 bucks for a quad-core cpu, better yet a hyperthreaded dual-core cpu in this day of age. Thank _Zen  _God or Thank God  Zen, whatever,  I'm out.​


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## Night (Feb 10, 2021)

Somehow I think Zen 3+ will be a beta release of AM5 platform, while the fully functional platform should arrive with Zen 4. Lots of new things added apparently, I'm not expecting everything at 100% from the start. That's another year for me, oh well...


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> You must be the scalper final boss


Scalpers with time machines.. I hate it.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

Night said:


> Somehow I think Zen 3+ will be a beta release of AM5 platform, while the fully functional platform should arrive with Zen 4. Lots of new things added apparently, I'm not expecting everything at 100% from the start. That's another year for me, oh well...


This thread is about zen4 not sure where are you getting zen3+. AMD never said they would release zen3+.


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## Cobain (Feb 10, 2021)

dont whant to set it' said:


> @TheDeeGee  No wonder Intel looks more stable by sticking to its version of tried and true all the while subverting progress. Hey man/women I will not stop you paying Intel over a 1000 bucks for a quad-core cpu, better yet a hyperthreaded dual-core cpu in this day of age. Thank _Zen  _God or Thank God  Zen, whatever,  I'm out.​



That's so 2017 tho. Right now is more like:

5600x - 350€, if you find one + whea errors,  no stability
10600kf - 220€, plenty of stock, plug and play

3600 - 220€, good CPU , stable too
10400f - 140€, good CPU, stable 

Easy decisions.


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## Night (Feb 10, 2021)

ratirt said:


> This thread is about zen4 not sure where are you getting zen3+. AMD never said they would release zen3+.





			
				This thread said:
			
		

> AMD appears to be preparing a bridging series of processors based on the Zen 3+ architecture before the release of Zen 4. Zen 3+ is expected to be AMD's first AM5 CPU design and should bring small IPC gains similar to the improvements from Zen to Zen+ in the range of 4% - 7%.


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

Night said:


> Somehow I think Zen 3+ will be a beta release of AM5 platform, while the fully functional platform should arrive with Zen 4.


That's like implying it won't work that well, which I highly doubt. It will most likely be fully functional, otherwise it will be delayed.

It's like calling Ryzen 3000 the beta of chiplet implementation, and Ryzen 5000 the fully functional one.


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## Night (Feb 10, 2021)

Mats said:


> That's like implying it won't work that well, which I highly doubt. It will most likely be fully functional, otherwise it will be delayed.
> 
> It's like calling Ryzen 3000 the beta of chiplet implementation, and Ryzen 5000 the fully functional one.


No, more like calling the 1000 series beta and 3000 series the fully functional one.


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

Night said:


> No, more like calling the 1000 series beta and 3000 series the fully functional one.


But that's also wrong. Slower doesn't mean beta. Although you could call anything pre-Zen on AM4 beta, that's fine with me. AMD was just trying out ancient tech on the new socket, more or less.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

Zen3+ architecture so that's like what processor line at the moment? Cause I know 5000 series but that's Zen3.
And the OP stated the zen4 2022 release so where did you get this info from about zen3+?
AMD slides don't even include anything about zen3+


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

I'm talking about CPU's, not motherboards.



ratirt said:


> And the OP stated the zen4 2022 release so where did you get this info from about zen3+?


Read the OP.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Feb 10, 2021)

ZoneDymo said:


> again just seems like this made up by someone who wants people to be ultimately disappointed with AMD


Intel seems to do this alot lately, not like they have anything but paper launches recently.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

Mats said:


> I'm talking about CPU's, not motherboards.
> 
> 
> Read the OP.


Yeah I read and the slides from AMD are not showing anything about zen3+. Not sure where this info is coming from but the ZEN4 was included in the slides and has been from the beginning of AMD showing these. Nothing has been announced from AMD iso far so I'd look at the zen3+ as a rumour.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Feb 10, 2021)

Mats said:


> Scalpers with time machines.. I hate it.



We don't have them because those bastards scalped those as well.


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## Night (Feb 10, 2021)

ratirt said:


> Yeah I read and the slides from AMD are not showing anything about zen3+. Not sure where this info is coming from but the ZEN4 was included in the slides and has been from the beginning of AMD showing these. Nothing has been announced from AMD iso far so I'd look at the zen3+ as a rumour.


Well actually yes, it's kind of rumour and nothing confirmed, just presented that way, quote from the article:


			
				Chips and Cheese said:
			
		

> While both the Chips and Cheese team and I have full belief that this information is accurate, that does not mean that this is 100% confirmed and you should not take this as unsalable truth. With this disclaimer out of the way, on to the juicy bits: Zen 3+, Zen 4 and even Zen 5.


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## dont whant to set it"' (Feb 10, 2021)

@Cobain The thing is, the thing is..., Intel would of pulled the rug right under ''us'', only to procede by pulling the sheets there after , after Skylake. You do the math, if mine is not up to your ''standards''.
Yeah, we ''all'' kind of like wondered what would and could a Phenom be on the process node on witch Bulldozer.AMD.arch was built on and its subsequents.
Le: no point living in the past as the past died already.


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

Night said:


> Well actually yes, it's kind of rumour and nothing confirmed, just presented that way, quote from the article:


I'm not trying to pick on anybody but it's a mixed information. zen4 has been confirmed in 2022 but the zen3+ hasn't been confirmed ever. Mixing these information together making it sound like zen3+ is something inevitable which in fact it isn't. Anyway, I wouldn't mind AMD releasing it. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea.


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## SDimmu (Feb 10, 2021)

Cobain said:


> That's so 2017 tho. Right now is more like:
> 
> 5600x - 350€, if you find one + whea errors,  no stability
> 10600kf - 220€, plenty of stock, plug and play
> ...


I'm running my 5800x with memory at 3800mhz 14-14-14, 100% stable for months. I come from a 3600 and everything works perfectly


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## Vendor (Feb 10, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> They already do. And Intel's 7nm is delayed yet again.


no, Intel is much better value here in my region and amd is overpriced. 3600 is 240$ and 10400f is 170$


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## Zareek (Feb 10, 2021)

Here we go again, let the over-hyping begin. 10% would be terrific! I hope Intel has something to counter. Then again with AMD's supply woes, Intel will still sell a lot of chips no matter how far they fall behind.


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## TechLurker (Feb 10, 2021)

Zen 3+ doesn't seem too out there; it's just a matter of a new I/O die and potentially a new pin set for the new socket. If anything, it would make a good early adoption/buy-in into PCIe 5.0 in the AMD ecosystem, and let it keep pace with Intel's own upcoming PCIe 5.0 CPUs (mostly avoiding the "I have it, they don't" marketing that low-key nailed Intel somewhat with their delayed PCIe 4.0 CPUs).

I do hope though that the same refinements are also brought to the 5800, 5900, and 5950 as XT forms for AM4, since I'm one of those just waiting for things to hopefully normalize come Summer as I eventually prepare this main rig to last 5-10 years or more (unless we experience a breakthrough in quantum computing, and we see the AMD Quantum consumer chips).

The Zen 4 IPC rumor doesn't sound too out there, but it'll be a generation I'm not going to be interested in personally. I do hope to see AMD continue to pushing the limits, and hopefully finding more production space along the way too.


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

ratirt said:


> Yeah I read and the slides from AMD are not showing anything about zen3+. Not sure where this info is coming from but the ZEN4 was included in the slides and has been from the beginning of AMD showing these. Nothing has been announced from AMD iso far so I'd look at the zen3+ as a rumour.


This whole thread is based on rumors. Some of them can be confirmed with info from AMD but you can't ask forum members to back up rumors in a thread about rumors. 
We're referring to the OP and it's not enough for you. I'd suggest you ask the OP instead, or better yet, ask the sources.  None of us came up with Zen3+, it's been out there for a while.



TechLurker said:


> Zen 3+ doesn't seem too out there; it's just a matter of a new I/O die and potentially a new pin set for the new socket.


Yeah, it sounds possible. AMD will need a new IO chip for DDR5 and they will make new chiplets sooner or later. It makes sense to combine Ryzen 5000 chiplets with a new IO chip and use it for one generation, before updating the chiplets as well.


TechLurker said:


> I do hope though that the same refinements are also brought to the 5800, 5900, and 5950 as XT forms for AM4,


I don't see what we could expect here besides higher prices. 3000XT made absolutely no one happy. 100 MHz extra makes zero difference in the long run.


TechLurker said:


> The Zen 4 IPC rumor doesn't sound too out there, but it'll be a generation I'm not going to be interested in personally.


The Zen 3 improvements were impressive, especially since it still was the same 7 nm, the same IO chip, and still DDR4. All those should be improved in Zen 4, although I wouldn't have too much hope about 5 nm in terms of improvements.


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## Makaveli (Feb 10, 2021)

piloponth said:


> Weird, that Zen3+ will be AM5 socket.
> I'm waiting for 5900XT as a 5900X with improved clocks, but immediatelly appliable in current motherboards. This idea is now destroyed.



Not Weird or surprising.

I knew AMD was going to release something on AM5 before Zen 4. And Figured it would be a Zen 3+ so you can have the boards out and tested in the wild. This also gives you time to work on the bios before Zen 4 launch. So the platform will be vetted instead of everything brand new for Zen 4.

And I don't think we are going to see a XT refresh on current Zen 3 models.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 10, 2021)

john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?


To be fair IPC measurements are inherently worthless because they are not constant across different workloads.


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## medi01 (Feb 10, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Am I?


Is "league of legends" the new codeword for "IPC"?
What a cool new name!


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## Makaveli (Feb 10, 2021)

The amount of trolling intel fan boys on this thread is hilarious.


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## dirtyferret (Feb 10, 2021)

Fantastic!  My new paper launched AMD CPU along with my new paper launched Nvidia GPU will give me leet FPS in paper games.


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## dyonoctis (Feb 10, 2021)

Vendor said:


> no, Intel is much better value here in my region and amd is overpriced. 3600 is 240$ and 10400f is 170$


Overpriced depends of your metrics. For Gaming the 10400f is absolutely the better value, but outside of gaming the 3600 tend to be faster and on the heels of a 10600k.


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## sergionography (Feb 10, 2021)

This is great, but the limitation AMD faces remains, how will they increase supply to keep up with demand and growth. This was an issue they had in the original athlon days to a certain extent as well, though back then they owned their Fab


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## ratirt (Feb 10, 2021)

Mats said:


> This whole thread is based on rumors. Some of them can be confirmed with info from AMD but you can't ask forum members to back up rumors in a thread about rumors.
> We're referring to the OP and it's not enough for you. I'd suggest you ask the OP instead, or better yet, ask the sources.  None of us came up with Zen3+, it's been out there for a while.


Not all is rumors. How can you say that an info about a product that has been confirmed by the manufacturer about its release is a rumor? 
I know what you are referring to but Zen4 is confirmed by AMD Zen3+ isn't. aka fact vs rumor.


Makaveli said:


> Not Weird or surprising.
> 
> I knew AMD was going to release something on AM5 before Zen 4. And Figured it would be a Zen 3+ so you can have the boards out and tested in the wild. This also gives you time to work on the bios before Zen 4 launch. So the platform will be vetted instead of everything brand new for Zen 4.
> 
> And I don't think we are going to see a XT refresh on current Zen 3 models.


AMD never said it will release zen3+. That has been taken from what happened with zen and zen+ but that was a different situation than now. This doesn't meaning it has to happen. It wouldn't hurt if it does happen.
Either way you slice it, I believe it when I see it.


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## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

ratirt said:


> How can you say that an info about a product that has been confirmed by the manufacturer about its release is a rumor?


I didn't.


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## efikkan (Feb 10, 2021)

I doubt anyone outside AMD knows the IPC figures of these chips.
But regardless, substantial IPC gains is certainly still possible. Just continuing expanding the front-ends with wider OoO windows, larger register files etc. and adding additional execution ports alone have a theoretical potential of ~50-100% IPC gains (if not more). Potential new techniques which improves ILP, like threadlets, can yield gains beyond that. And then there is certainly ISA improvements.
So it's not unlikely that we will see several new generations offering IPC improvements in the ~20% range.

As for availability of Zen 3, I'm actually more concerned about the stability issues which still remains three months in, which ruins an otherwise kick-ass product. At least they are steadily shipping out, even though shops may have several months of backorders.



Vya Domus said:


> To be fair IPC measurements are inherently worthless because they are not constant across different workloads.


Actually not. IPC is an underlying constant, which we try to approximate using a wide set of representative workloads.


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## Makaveli (Feb 10, 2021)

ratirt said:


> Not all is rumors. How can you say that an info about a product that has been confirmed by the manufacturer about its release is a rumor?
> I know what you are referring to but Zen4 is confirmed by AMD Zen3+ isn't. aka fact vs rumor.
> 
> AMD never said it will release zen3+. That has been taken from what happened with zen and zen+ but that was a different situation than now. This doesn't meaning it has to happen. It wouldn't hurt if it does happen.
> Either way you slice it, I believe it when I see it.



I know there is nothing official on Zen 3+ and we may never see it. Rocket Lake S looks like its going to offer maybe 5-10% more single thread and be equal to Zen 3 on MT at the 8 core level. And with Zen 4 looking to be a 2022 Q1 launch and the current pandemic and inventory and stock issues there maybe no point with a refresh.


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## Vendor (Feb 10, 2021)

dyonoctis said:


> Overpriced depends of your metrics. For Gaming the 10400f is absolutely the better value, but outside of gaming the 3600 tend to be faster and on the heels of a 10600k.


just think of it, isn't India price bad? You didn't address my point, 10400f is 6c/12 and had decent ipc too i don't think it will very far behind other general compute tasks like editing, rendering, cinebench etc. and stuff


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## evernessince (Feb 10, 2021)

Cobain said:


> That's so 2017 tho. Right now is more like:
> 
> 5600x - 350€, if you find one + whea errors,  no stability
> 10600kf - 220€, plenty of stock, plug and play
> ...



There is no wide-spread issues with the 5600X as you imply.  You are just taking a few reddit posts (which aren't even verified evidence FYI) and extrapolating those to the extreme.  I've seen FAR more posts about heat issues on the Intel 10xx series than AMD WHEA errors.  

In addition, your pricing estimates are misleading.  You are forgetting the cost of a CPU cooler.  The AMD processor comes with one, not to mention Intel is harder to cool due to the higher power requirements.  In addition, in order to get the most out of an Intel CPU you need a Z class motherboard (You can't even enable XMP on anything but Z class for Intel).  The 5600X on the otherhand runs just fine on a $65 motherboard and you can still run your RAM at high frequencies.

Last you are quoting the inflated AMD prices, not MSRP.  There's a reason the Intel CPUs are still in stock, they are worse in every metric often by a wide margin.  Hell the 5600X matches in multi-threading performance to Intel's higher core count parts and consumes half the power while doing it.  

If you want the best CPU on the market, you buy the 5800X / 5900X / 5950X (depending on core count need).  If you want a budget CPU you get the 3600.  The 10400f is a decent proposition and beats the 3600 in gaming by a small amount but at this price point people won't have a GPU that can realize the difference and in order to get that performance out of the 10400f you need a Z class motherboard.  Your performance advantage is moot with a B class mobo.  The 3600 beats the 10400f in every other metric though, so really you are buying it if you only care about gaming.



Zareek said:


> Here we go again, let the over-hyping begin. 10% would be terrific! I hope Intel has something to counter. Then again with AMD's supply woes, Intel will still sell a lot of chips no matter how far they fall behind.



Those will relax as the market returns to normal demand levels.  Right now demand was placed at around 2.8 times normal.



Vendor said:


> no, Intel is much better value here in my region and amd is overpriced. 3600 is 240$ and 10400f is 170$



That's very expensive for a 3600.  That said the 3600 still comes with a CPU cooler and can run just fine on a low end motherboard.  In the end you are going to be paying about the same for the Intel and AMD platform.  Retailers in your area seem to have up-priced the AMD CPU knowing this.


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## Vendor (Feb 10, 2021)

evernessince said:


> That's very expensive for a 3600. That said the 3600 still comes with a CPU cooler and can run just fine on a low end motherboard. In the end you are going to be paying about the same for the Intel and AMD platform. Retailers in your area seem to have up-priced the AMD CPU knowing this.


the i5 also comes with a stock cooler which is enough for it as it's not very power hungry and non-overclockable


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## Caring1 (Feb 10, 2021)

Night said:


> Somehow I think Zen 3+ will be a beta release of AM5 platform, while the fully functional platform should arrive with Zen 4. Lots of new things added apparently, I'm not expecting everything at 100% from the start. That's another year for me, oh well...


Think?
More like you read that in an article here and are now parroting it as if you had that thought.


----------



## dyonoctis (Feb 10, 2021)

Vendor said:


> just think of it, isn't India price bad? You didn't address my point, 10400f is 6c/12 and had decent ipc too i don't think it will very far behind other general compute tasks like editing, rendering, cinebench etc. and stuff


The price difference between them is not too far off as the one that you would find in Europe, but on Amazon it still outsold the 10400f.
I'm not saying that choosing the 10400f is a bad choice, but there's a few perks coming from zen2 and AM4, a more modern platform with pcie 4, and the possiblity to get a zen 3 for cheap after a while (especially when DDR5 is going to be costly, and not much faster for at least a couple years.)

We are equally getting screwed for not being american (besides the fact that zen 3 is far far more easier to get in Europe), but I still don't think that the 3600 is overpriced. The 3600x/5600x though ? big time overpriced.


----------



## Vendor (Feb 10, 2021)

dyonoctis said:


> The price difference between them is not too far off as the one that you would find in Europe, but on Amazon it still outsold the 10400f.
> I'm not saying that choosing the 10400f is a bad choice, but there's a few perks coming from zen2 and AM4, a more modern platform with pcie 4, and the possiblity to get a zen 3 for cheap after a while (especially when DDR5 is going to be costly, and not much faster for at least a couple years.)
> 
> We are equally getting screwed for not being american (besides the fact that zen 3 is far far more easier to get in Europe), but I still don't think that the 3600 is overpriced. The 3600x/5600x though ? big time overpriced.


their boards are more expensive too except a320


----------



## dyonoctis (Feb 10, 2021)

Vendor said:


> their boards are more expensive too except a320


Well your country is doing everything backwards, then  in Europe you can find b450 for lower or about the same as b460. You can even find a few b550 for cheaper than the h470 (and B550 being compatible with pcie 4.0 means that they got a thicker pcb)


----------



## thesmokingman (Feb 10, 2021)

This thread isn't about pricing in x country lol.


----------



## Mats (Feb 10, 2021)

Vendor said:


> their boards are more expensive too except a320


No. On the other hand, budget LGA1200 won't run Rocket Lake.






						Mainboards Intel Sockel 1200 Preisvergleich Geizhals EU
					

Preisvergleich für Mainboards Intel Sockel 1200 ✓ Bewertungen ✓ Produktinfos ⇒ Auswahl und Filtern der Produkte nach den besten Eigenschaften und dem billigsten Preis




					geizhals.eu
				








						Mainboards AMD Sockel AM4 Preisvergleich Geizhals EU
					

Preisvergleich für Mainboards AMD Sockel AM4 ✓ Bewertungen ✓ Produktinfos ⇒ Auswahl und Filtern der Produkte nach den besten Eigenschaften und dem billigsten Preis




					geizhals.eu
				




Sorry thesmokingman, I couldn't resist, posting is a bit like smoking. Just one more.


----------



## Vendor (Feb 10, 2021)

Mats said:


> No. On the other hand, budget LGA1200 won't run Rocket Lake.


won't there be newer gen budget ones? like h510 or b560


----------



## Cobain (Feb 10, 2021)

evernessince said:


> There is no wide-spread issues with the 5600X as you imply.  You are just taking a few reddit posts (which aren't even verified evidence FYI) and extrapolating those to the extreme.  I've seen FAR more posts about heat issues on the Intel 10xx series than AMD WHEA errors.
> 
> In addition, your pricing estimates are misleading.  You are forgetting the cost of a CPU cooler.  The AMD processor comes with one, not to mention Intel is harder to cool due to the higher power requirements.  In addition, in order to get the most out of an Intel CPU you need a Z class motherboard (You can't even enable XMP on anything but Z class for Intel).  The 5600X on the otherhand runs just fine on a $65 motherboard and you can still run your RAM at high frequencies.
> 
> ...



Look, is him! The most famous AMD fanboy on techspot!

Btw 10400f comes with a cooler and its performance doesnt get affected a single bit by using it.

Z490 motherboard? 120€ and you're set. Cooler for 10600k? Cyorig m9i and you are good to go. Still cheaper than 5600x+b550 motherboard.

Oh also forgot that you dont need b die RAM on Intel, wich is more expensive.

You can Say what you want, no One on a budget buys AMD right now. Plus... Stocks are awful anyway.

PS: yes there are common stability issues with zen3. Go on overclock dot net forum and look at the poll. The most recent chips have a high errors rate, at stock! Pure crap.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Feb 10, 2021)

Maybe my inability to purchase Zen 3 is a blessing and I'll just wait for Zen4 becuase we get AM5 socket, DDR5, possibly PCI-E 5.0 and of course all new MB's. This of course assumes the situation is any better in 2022. TSMC"s lack of capacity will not improve much.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 11, 2021)

nguyen said:


> hopefully AM5 CPU bracket is backward compatible with AM4 so that AM4 CPU cooler would work with AM5


If you have a Noctua they will send you any adapters at no cost.


----------



## good11 (Feb 11, 2021)

Nah Zen 3 Milan is the codename of EPYC platform not AM4.


Warhol is it and I think it still on socket AM4 with ZEN3+ for A520/B550/X570 only.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Feb 11, 2021)

Cobain said:


> Look, is him! The most famous AMD fanboy on techspot!
> 
> Btw 10400f comes with a cooler and its performance doesnt get affected a single bit by using it.
> 
> ...


anyone one on a budget goes amd
the 3200g kicks the i3s teeth in for a quater of the price


----------



## Turmania (Feb 11, 2021)

I will not be surprised if they make their ryzen 7 xxxx series selling price go up by another 100 by then.


----------



## phanbuey (Feb 11, 2021)

Turmania said:


> I will not be surprised if they make their ryzen 7 xxxx series selling price go up by another 100 by then.



For sure at least 100... plus DDR5 is going to be expensive AF as well.


----------



## watzupken (Feb 11, 2021)

Vendor said:


> the i5 also comes with a stock cooler which is enough for it as it's not very power hungry and non-overclockable


Actually it depends on which i5 model you are using. While most of them are not as highly clocked like the i7/i9, and almost all not overclockable, they still draw enough power at load to overwhelm the mini stock cooler that came with it. My younger brother's i5 9400 can hit mid 80 degs when playing CS Go with that stock cooler. Simply by changing it to a third party cooler (I got a Scythe Shuriken 3), load temps are now in the 60s. The Intel stock cooler in my opinion is a bad joke.



Turmania said:


> I will not be surprised if they make their ryzen 7 xxxx series selling price go up by another 100 by then.


WIth cost increasing, this is inevitable. For early adopters of next gen CPUs, there will be significant upgrade cost because you will need to get a new motherboard and likely ram as well. All of which will come with a premium.


----------



## evernessince (Feb 11, 2021)

Vendor said:


> the i5 also comes with a stock cooler which is enough for it as it's not very power hungry and non-overclockable



The i5 10400F consumes 149W stock, which is only slightly less than the 8700K stock.  It is still power hungry.  With the stock cooler you are looking at getting up to over 82c in under 20 seconds.  Sure, you can run on stock cooler but the CPU will certainly throttle under any sort of sustained loads.  At that point though you aren't going to get near the performance shown in benchmarks.

You still want a decent VRM as well and you can only use XMP on Z class motherboards.  Again, most reviews use higher than default memory speeds.  If the only reason you are buying a 10400F is because of the gaming performance, you had better at least make sure you are actually getting that advantage.  The margin in performance in games between the 10400F and 3600 is less than the difference between having RAM set to default speeds and XMP 3200 or higher.

TBH the best deal was when the 1600AF was going for $85 USD.  That was an absolute steal.  Zen+ IPC, 6 cores, good platform all for under $100.  Current CPU prices aren't that good and I would simply advise people to wait if possible.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

There is no way Zen 4 will be out in 2022, maybe a paper launch in 2022 like Zen 3 was. Demand is up and won't be going down, so using that excuse doesn't count anymore. I doubt I will even be able to buy a PS5 in Fall 2021... not to mention all the other products TSMC makes... yeah there is just no way Zen 4 will be out in 2022, sorry but I don't believe it for one second. I'd bet money more like spring/summer 2023.


----------



## Makaveli (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> There is no way Zen 4 will be out in 2022, maybe a paper launch in 2022 like Zen 3 was. Demand is up and won't be going down, so using that excuse doesn't count anymore. I doubt I will even be able to buy a PS5 in Fall 2021... not to mention all the other products TSMC makes... yeah there is just no way Zen 4 will be out in 2022, sorry but I don't believe it for one second. I'd bet money more like spring/summer 2023.


If intel does launch Alderlake in Q3 of this year I think we will see Zen 4 in Q1 of 2022 but I wouldn't expect that to be a volume launch.

And if Alderlake does meet its performance claims AMD Can't really wait until 2023 to provide an answer.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> If intel does launch Aderlake in Q3 of this year I think we will see Zen 4 in Q1 of 2022 but I wouldn't expect that to be a volume launch.
> 
> If alderlake does does meet its performance claims AMD Can't really wait until 2023 to provide an answer.



hmm interesting. well if it a paper launch and I happen to get lucky again, I'll be selling my zen 3 on here shortly after lol but i am not selling it until i have a zen 4 chip in my hand... with the world is going i'm still very skeptical about any sort of normal stock at msrp stuff. especially as the bots become more and more enhanced, and the companies are flat out refusing to be aggressive in innovation when it comes to scalpers. it seriously wouldn't be that hard to stop scalpers if we were to say require unique address and drivers license photo copy for all orders placed, and each order verified by a rep/customer service agent. it would slow down order fulfillment that is certain, but two week delay is better than 2 year.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2021)

john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the *"if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"*?


I say that's a good thing!


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I say that's a good thing!



indeed, but I don't think this will be sustainable. I think zen 3 and zen 4 are going to be the very peak of all these increases.  silicon can only do so much after all... I hope I am wrong of course


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> indeed, but I don't think this will be sustainable. I think zen 3 and zen 4 are going to be the very peak of all these increases.  silicon can only do so much after all... I hope I am wrong of course


no silicone is a substrait we are going to hit a performance wall in the next 10 or so years with gains getting smaller or smaller


----------



## Vendor (Feb 11, 2021)

evernessince said:


> The i5 10400F consumes 149W stock


WTH you talking about? it has 65w tdp just like the ryzen chip


evernessince said:


> You still want a decent VRM as well and you can only use XMP on Z class motherboards


people running them totally fine on h410 boards and xmp is not really necessary with intel 2966mhz is fast enough for them and now on 10th gen they do allow overclocking above jedec speeds


----------



## ratirt (Feb 11, 2021)

Vendor said:


> WTH you talking about? it has 65w tdp just like the ryzen chip
> 
> people running them totally fine on h410 boards and xmp is not really necessary with intel 2966mhz is fast enough for them and now on 10th gen they do allow overclocking above jedec speeds


Yeah 65W like it matters. take a look here and TDP means nothing for power consumption.








						Intel Core i5-10400F Review - Six Cores with HT for Under $200
					

Intel's new Core i5-10400F offers a large performance jump over the previous generation Core i5-9400F because of its six-core/twelve-thread design. In this Core i5-10400F review we also test the feasibility of overclocking through BCLK, or by relaxing the PL1 and PL2 Turbo Limits.




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> no silicone is a substrait we are going to hit a performance wall in the next 10 or so years with gains getting smaller or smaller


Replacement substrate materials are being developed. Pure silicon is at the end of it's usefulness. Compound materials are the future of IC development. Arsenide seems to be leading the charge ATM.



Vendor said:


> WTH you talking about? it has 65w tdp just like the ryzen chip


Under max load it uses about 140 to 150w of power. However, that is not the same as a measured TDP. TDP is the total maximum nominal heat output. Officially, TDP = Thermal Design Power. However, some people also use the following because it actually applies; TDP = Thermal Dissipation Profile.


----------



## InVasMani (Feb 11, 2021)

All I really desire is a AMD Zen 3+ 8c/16t single or 6c/12t single CCX Threadripper with 6 channel or 8 channel. I'm not picking I just want insane bandwidth and sufficient core count.


----------



## B-Real (Feb 11, 2021)

piloponth said:


> Weird, that Zen3+ will be AM5 socket.
> I'm waiting for 5900XT as a 5900X with improved clocks, but immediatelly appliable in current motherboards. This idea is now destroyed.


AMD promised AM4 support until 2020. That promise was fulfilled.



BorisDG said:


> Am I?


First you say they said 50%. They said up to 50%. Then you link this presentation slide where only 2 games get around 50% boost. Check LOL. It's not even 50% at the end but 84% (against a 3900X but there is minimal difference between the 3900X and 3900XT). Tested with a 3090. Linus' CS GO results nearly match the graphs: 44% against 46%. *And average improvement over Zen2 was 20%, not 10-15%.*

So I would appreciate if you would stop lying.



ratirt said:


> You are saying nonsense. 50% for League of legends in a one game scenario not overall performance.
> And they didnt lie about it. 5900X has a 50% increase in performance in that particular case.
> The IPC gain from zen 2 to zen 3 was 19% and that was also accurate.



They lied because in the above linked video it's not 50, but 84% faster.  Bad AMD.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 11, 2021)

B-Real said:


> They lied because in the above linked video it's not 50, but 84% faster.  Bad AMD.


AMD didn't lie about anything. If somebody misinterprets the graphs, charts about performance or simply doesn't understand what's being shown we have silly comments sometimes


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 11, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> And if Alderlake does meet its performance claims


What performance claims 

Pretty sure Alderlake tops out at 8 "big cores" so there's no reason for AMD to counter them at MSDT top end, for HEDT Intel's not even in the frame. Having said that it'd be nice if zen4 or zen3+ launches in 2021, even if only to reduce the process on zen3 parts.


----------



## Vendor (Feb 11, 2021)

ratirt said:


> Yeah 65W like it matters. take a look here and TDP means nothing for power consumption.





lexluthermiester said:


> Under max load it uses about 140 to 150w of power. However, that is not the same as a measured TDP. TDP is the total maximum nominal heat output. Officially, TDP = Thermal Design Power. However, some people also use the following because it actually applies; TDP = Thermal Dissipation Profile.


Same can be said about 3600 too? because they are rated at same tdp too and ryzen is notorious for running hot as well
well, it doesn't matter much because i saw JTC video when 10th gen launched he was impressed by i9 10900k temps despite high power consumption, iirc it was barely anything above 80c so an i5 should run much cooler than that


----------



## Night (Feb 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Replacement substrate materials are being developed. Pure silicon is at the end of it's usefulness. Compound materials are the future of IC development. Arsenide seems to be leading the charge ATM.


Thought it's supposed to be graphene.



Caring1 said:


> Think?
> More like you read that in an article here and are now parroting it as if you had that thought.


Where did I exactly read that? It's my opinion.


----------



## Caring1 (Feb 11, 2021)

Night said:


> Where did I exactly read that? It's my opinion.


"AMD appears to be preparing a bridging series of processors based on the Zen 3+ architecture before the release of Zen 4. Zen 3+ is expected to be AMD's first AM5 CPU design and should bring small IPC gains similar to the improvements from Zen to Zen+ in the range of 4% - 7%. The Zen 3+ processors will be manufactured on TSMC's refined N7 node with a potential announcement sometime later in 2021."

All you did is reword it. It's called plagiarism.


----------



## Mats (Feb 11, 2021)

Vendor said:


> won't there be newer gen budget ones? like h510 or b560


How is that going to help those who already own budget boards? So now you don't care about being budget conscious all of a sudden? 

Your argument for Intel was cheaper boards (which is false), but you fail to see that those same boards works only with one generation of CPU's, and how it affects those who wants to upgrade.
Meanwhile, AMD's B450 boards has been around since 2018, and works with multiple generations. For instance, this Asrock board works with anything from Ryzen 3 1200 to Ryzen 9 5950X.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

I'm not counting out AM4 yet, AMD has switched their tune a couple times on backwards compatibility with mobo's, a Zen 3 + on refined 7nm node probably will still work in AM4 with a bios update on 'select mobos' aka higher end ones to mid-upper tier ones.  That's my guess anyway we will see.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2021)

Vendor said:


> Same can be said about 3600 too?


That is called binning. Everyone does it.



Night said:


> Thought it's supposed to be graphene.


Possibly. The research I've read indicated that the concept needs work.

Back to the topic of the thread;
My question about Zen4 is what will the socket be? Will it be dual channel memory or are they going to finally step up to triple channel?


----------



## Mats (Feb 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> My question about Zen4 is what will the socket be? Will it be dual channel memory or are they going to finally step up to triple channel?


With DDR5 in itself giving more bandwidth, I can't see why they'd go for more channels on mainstream.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2021)

Mats said:


> With DDR5 in itself giving more bandwidth, I can't see why they'd go for more channels on mainstream.


So people can do more work faster? Why else would you add channels of memory? It's the whole point of the concept. And yes we need to advance forward from dual channel configurations in the mainstream sectors of computing.


----------



## Makaveli (Feb 11, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> What performance claims
> 
> Pretty sure Alderlake tops out at 8 "big cores" so there's no reason for AMD to counter them at MSDT top end, for HEDT Intel's not even in the frame. Having said that it'd be nice if zen4 or zen3+ launches in 2021, even if only to reduce the process on zen3 parts.


Performance as in IPC claims not core count.


----------



## cueman (Feb 11, 2021)

zen3 to zen4 29% more power, practical its 7nm to 5nm
hmm...we will see...looks clear  percent calculate summum....lol


anyway,exiting,
well, lets see  1st 14nm rocket lake vs 7nm zen 3 and then...little bit but not yet same level process tech results..., 
and i mean 10nm adler lake-s vs 7nm zen 3

then we go i guess 2022 and might be 5nm zen 4 get against 7nm meteor lake or even 3nm ones,bcoz looks sure that intel start trust also TSMC products.

is it there 2022/2023 both, amd and intel 3nm process ech..if so,then only engineer skills shows winner, not handicap advance like now aka 14nm cpu compare 7nm cpu...

naaaah.. useless.

sure is that intel get amd ,its only matter of time,interesting times....

well,anyway,competition is always good!!!


----------



## LemmingOverlord (Feb 11, 2021)

john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?



The problem is that sooner or later AMD becomes as greedy as Intel and realises it has such a performance/technology lead that it can squeeze every last buck from the consumer with minor performance bumps. When confronted with this fact, they will happily point to the fact that "Intel did it first" and promptly give consumers the middle finger. The student becomes the teacher, etc...


----------



## Slizzo (Feb 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> So people can do more work faster? Why else would you add channels of memory? It's the whole point of the concept. And yes we need to advance forward from dual channel configurations in the mainstream sectors of computing.



Cost. That extra channel will add cost and complexity to the boards, and I don't see Intel nor AMD adding another memory channel when they'll already be realizing better bandwidth with just the switch from DDR4 to DDR5.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2021)

Slizzo said:


> Cost. That extra channel will add cost and complexity to the boards, and I don't see Intel nor AMD adding another memory channel when they'll already be realizing better bandwidth with just the switch from DDR4 to DDR5.


Nonsense. Currently, 4 DIMM slots are generally made for most boards. 3 would lower cost. 6 would be a minimal increase in cost. Complexity is a given.


----------



## mechtech (Feb 11, 2021)

"according to ChipsandChesse"

nough said 
lol


----------



## Mats (Feb 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> So people can do more work faster? Why else would you add channels of memory? It's the whole point of the concept. And yes we need to advance forward from dual channel configurations in the mainstream sectors of computing.


You clearly misunderstood my "why". 

I didn't mean "I can't see what it would give consumers".


----------



## InVasMani (Feb 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nonsense. Currently, 4 DIMM slots are generally made for most boards. 3 would lower cost. 6 would be a minimal increase in cost. Complexity is a given.


Triple channel DDR5 one less slot than DDR4 higher capacity and less voltage with the bandwidth of quad channel DDR4. Triple channel would have been fine even on DDR4 to have been more commonly used it would've been good on a ThreadRipper in fact if they'd want to lower the cost on it with more reasonable core count chips that have a bit better frequency scaling and a nice mixture of bandwidth. The Capacity wouldn't have been a issue to most 48GB to 96GB is still a lot.


----------



## TechLurker (Feb 13, 2021)

Mats said:


> I don't see what we could expect here besides higher prices. 3000XT made absolutely no one happy. 100 MHz extra makes zero difference in the long run.


The difference between a theoretical 5000 XT and the 3000 XT is that the 5000 series itself is the end of the AM4 line, where it does make sense to put out the best, fully matured CPUs/APUs possible for the platform, whether they provide a bit more efficiency at the same speeds (effectively run a bit cooler), or provide a bit more punch (extra 100-200 Mhz). As well, pushing the non-XTs down 50-100 USD (depending on model or purpose) and putting the XTs at the old, original MSRP price point of the CPUs they're replacing, gives them another means to compete somewhat on price with Intel, while slotting in a few more CPUs at key tiers.

The other bit is that AMD, like Intel, will be going into a bit of a transition period from PCIe 4.0 and DDR4 to PCIe 5.0 and DDR5, and will have to somewhat start anew (more in I/O capability and making DDR5 truly work), so some new builders may still opt to buy into the last gen but also aim for the best of the last gen, as it's all been time-tested and proven.


----------



## Deleted member 205776 (Feb 13, 2021)

If this is true, looks like me holding onto my 3900X till Zen 5 is paying off.


----------



## DAWMan (Feb 14, 2021)

Guess it’s time to get Windows 8.1 and retire my 4790k’s. Get me a W 1250P Xeon and in 2024 a Zen 3+.


----------



## Mats (Feb 18, 2021)

TechLurker said:


> The difference between a theoretical 5000 XT and the 3000 XT is that the 5000 series itself is the end of the AM4 line, where it does make sense to put out the best, fully matured CPUs/APUs possible for the platform, whether they provide a bit more efficiency at the same speeds (effectively run a bit cooler), or provide a bit more punch (extra 100-200 Mhz).


Those minimal gains doesn't make sense for $100 extra. When 3000XT showed up, AMD had only squeezed out just a tiny bit extra clock speed. Next time, that same, now even more mature 7 nm might deliver even smaller improvements, assuming that the biggest improvements can be done in the beginning of a process. 


TechLurker said:


> As well, pushing the non-XTs down 50-100 USD (depending on model or purpose) and putting the XTs at the old, original MSRP price point of the CPUs they're replacing, gives them another means to compete somewhat on price with Intel, while slotting in a few more CPUs at key tiers.


That's not how it worked when 3000XT was launched. NOTHING happened with the prices for the older models. Why? Because they didn't have enough impact on the market to affect the pricing of existing models. The prices had already dropped to those lower points long before the XT launch.


TechLurker said:


> The other bit is that AMD, like Intel, will be going into a bit of a transition period from PCIe 4.0 and DDR4 to PCIe 5.0 and DDR5, and will have to somewhat start anew (more in I/O capability and making DDR5 truly work), so some new builders may still opt to buy into the last gen but also aim for the best of the last gen, as it's all been time-tested and proven.


Maybe in theory, but again, judging by the 3000XT, none of those miniscule improvements makes sense in the long run. Show me ONE decent review that's praising the 3000XT's.
You have to weigh in cost here, people aren't going for ridiculously small improvements at any cost. For the same reason, the 3600 is much more popular than the 3600X.

Some people seems to believe that a 5000XT will bring like 500 MHz extra clock speed, or something like that. I'm not sure even that would justify a $100 price hike. Either way, that won't happen.


----------



## Dredi (Feb 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> So people can do more work faster? Why else would you add channels of memory? It's the whole point of the concept. And yes we need to advance forward from dual channel configurations in the mainstream sectors of computing.


Just get an entry level epyc with 8 channels @ just $400 or so, one for each core. Epyc is the platform for doing more work, ryzen is just for gaming and browsing the internet. 

For real though, the bandwidth of ddr4 is hardly a bottleneck now and will definitely not be one with ddr5, save for some silly iGPU use cases.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 20, 2021)

Dredi said:


> ryzen is just for gaming and browsing the internet.


Bollocks! 


Dredi said:


> For real though, the bandwidth of ddr4 is hardly a bottleneck now


It can be for some tasks, thus the push for an expansion on the number of channels.


Dredi said:


> will definitely not be one with ddr5


DDR5 is a bit of a solution without a problem. It's also not going to do mainstream any good during the early stages of release.


Dredi said:


> save for some silly iGPU use cases.


That's not so silly anymore. With AMD and Intel iGPU quality and capability pushing into respectable ranges, the system RAM they use needs to step up in performance to match.


----------



## InVasMani (Feb 20, 2021)

It's not complicated I just want a quad channel DDR4I single CCX refreshment to the original Zen1 ThreadRipper line up more or less. It would be more cost effective and frequency scaling would have a higher ceiling and power more reasonable while having the upside to the improved IPC, latency, and frequency scaling. As far as bandwidth goes if it's not needed why bother with DDR5? If bandwidth doesn't matter why are people pushing infinity fabric far as they can!!? What is it for less bandwidth.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Feb 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nonsense. Currently, 4 DIMM slots are generally made for most boards. 3 would lower cost. 6 would be a minimal increase in cost. Complexity is a given.



Isn't DDR5 inherently dual channel on a single DIMM?  See here.

That should mean we can have two DIMM slots, and quad channel.  As you say, that should be a net sum zero game as far as cost.  Triple channel would probably be out though.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 21, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> Isn't DDR5 inherently dual channel on a single DIMM?  See here.
> 
> That should mean we can have two DIMM slots, and quad channel.  As you say, that should be a net sum zero game as far as cost.  Triple channel would probably be out though.


While true, this does not bring a lot of tangible benefit as each channel operates at 32bits as opposed to the 64bit data bus current memory offers.


> Interestingly, every DDR5 DIMM will work in dual-channel mode by itself, as the memory banks are now addressable on two independent 32-bit sub-channels (40-bit for ECC memory), which is a similar design to GDDR6 and LPDDR4 memory.


This means that the data bus is being split in half to make additional channels. While this scheme can have a few processing benefits, the actual performance increase will be minimal. As alluded to elsewhere in that same page, there are on-DIMM voltage regulators for power saving and it seems logical that the dual channel split is a part of that design.

In the end it's a trade off which will not do much to improve performance.


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## RandallFlagg (Feb 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> While true, this does not bring a lot of tangible benefit as each channel operates at 32bits as oppose to the 64bit data bus current memory offers.



We don't know that yet, not until we have benchmarks, as there are other changes said to offset that :

Your point :
"_Each DIMM can handle two 32-bit memory channels instead of only a single 64-bit channel._" 

The counterpoint:
_"Since each bank operates independently of each other, the burst length can be doubled and greater efficiency can be achieved. That means, for instance, DDR5 SDRAM can perform two 64-byte operations in the same time it takes DDR4 SDRAM to perform just one operation."_

Source: https://techxplore.com/news/2020-07-ddr5-sdram-standard-boost-dual-channel.html


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 21, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> We don't know that yet, not until we have benchmarks, as there are other changes said to offset that :


We don't need the benchmarks. History and simple math tell us enough.


RandallFlagg said:


> The counterpoint:
> _"Since each bank operates independently of each other_


But at 32bits instead of 64bits.


RandallFlagg said:


> the burst length can be doubled


Dubious claim. If true that would be great and a big step forward, but the proof is in the pudding and there have been not demonstrations as of yet. You'd think they'd want to show it off.


RandallFlagg said:


> greater efficiency can be achieved


That part is the part that has some merit.


RandallFlagg said:


> That means, for instance, DDR5 SDRAM can perform two 64-byte operations in the same time it takes DDR4 SDRAM to perform just one operation."


Again, the math does not support that claim based on what specifications have been stated.

It's not believable until they show it and explain in more detail how things work. So far the details do not support the claims stated.


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## Dredi (Feb 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It can be for some tasks, thus the push for an expansion on the number of channels.


Name one. And no silly iGPU gaming stuff. Focus on your ’do more work faster’ statement. 8 channel zen2 epyc is just $400 or so. Why don’t you buy that?


InVasMani said:


> If bandwidth doesn't matter why are people pushing infinity fabric far as they can!!?


Infinity fabric makes the CCX itself do stuff faster, and also lowers the memory latency (which has nothing to do with bandwidth and cannot be lowered by adding channels).


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 21, 2021)

Dredi said:


> Name one.


Booting and running the OS...


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## trickson (Feb 21, 2021)

I just can't get enough of the Ryzen CPU's! 
I have 2 first gen Ryzens and one 3rd gen.
Hope to add a 4th gen CPU soon! 
LOVE YOU AMD!


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## r9 (Feb 21, 2021)

trickson said:


> I just can't get enough of the Ryzen CPU's!
> I have 2 first gen Ryzens and one 3rd gen.
> Hope to add a 4th gen CPU soon!
> LOVE YOU AMD!



Everything you say will be hold against you in the future AMD vs Intel thread. 
On that note ...


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## Dredi (Feb 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Booting and running the OS...


And how many percent faster does threadripper boot compared to ryzen? My guess would be around 0%, but I guess you have more info about your claim.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 22, 2021)

Dredi said:


> And how many percent faster does threadripper boot compared to ryzen? My guess would be around 0%, but I guess you have more info about your claim.


Was being a smart-ass. I do that when people make comments like the one you made. I'm not going to take time out of my day to give a lengthy explanation when such an effort would be a waste on the intended audience. Put short, if you do not already understand the benefit of extra memory channels to improve system performance then you need to do some research and reading. I'm not doing it for you.


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## Deleted member 205776 (Feb 22, 2021)

All that I hope for is Intel making actually good CPUs for once, so my Zen 5 chips are cheaper when I do eventually upgrade from my 3900X


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 22, 2021)

Alexa said:


> All that I hope for is Intel making actually good CPUs for once, so my Zen 5 chips are cheaper when I do eventually upgrade from my 3900X


That 3900X is an excellent CPU, why would you need to upgrade?


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## Deleted member 205776 (Feb 22, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That 3900X is an excellent CPU, why would you need to upgrade?


Well I don't consider a jump from Zen 2 to Zen 5 unreasonable. Upgrading to a 5900X would be. I also would prefer better single threaded perf


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## InVasMani (Feb 22, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Was being a smart-ass. I do that when people make comments like the one you made. I'm not going to take time out of my day to give a lengthy explanation when such an effort would be a waste on the intended audience. Put short, if you do not already understand the benefit of extra memory channels to improve system performance then you need to do some research and reading. I'm not doing it for you.


Exactly hell part of the reason I want to switch to a modern quad channel DDR4 is to pair it with Primo Cache. Quad channel should be quite beneficial to it since it's a block level cache that utilizes memory capacity and bandwidth and it aids in speeding up NTFS compression performance. On a side note I wish I could install Windows 10 with NTFS 2048 byte size rather than the default 4K (4096byte) size. It's probably possible in some form perhaps, but Windows itself doesn't seem to allow doing so readily and easily. I don't know Windows 10 doesn't allow it though they allow 4K uncompressed and 2K compressed ends up at the same capacity because the compression ratio is 2:1 for NTFS.


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## Dredi (Feb 22, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Was being a smart-ass. I do that when people make comments like the one you made. I'm not going to take time out of my day to give a lengthy explanation when such an effort would be a waste on the intended audience. Put short, if you do not already understand the benefit of extra memory channels to improve system performance then you need to do some research and reading. I'm not doing it for you.


Ok, so I guess it’s difficult to point out even one piece of software that benefits greatly from more memory channels and is typically run on basic PC hardware. For enthusiasts there are already platforms that have what you want and don’t cost that much extra.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 22, 2021)

Alexa said:


> Well I don't consider a jump from Zen 2 to Zen 5 unreasonable. Upgrading to a 5900X would be. I also would prefer better single threaded perf


Ah Zen5, I thought you meant Ryzen 5xxx. My bad.





InVasMani said:


> Exactly hell part of the reason I want to switch to a modern quad channel DDR4 is to pair it with Primo Cache. Quad channel should be quite beneficial to it since it's a block level cache that utilizes memory capacity and bandwidth and it aids in speeding up NTFS compression performance.


Nice, good example for why expanding memory channels can be of benefit. There many others.


InVasMani said:


> On a side note I wish I could install Windows 10 with NTFS 2048 byte size rather than the default 4K (4096byte) size. It's probably possible in some form perhaps, but Windows itself doesn't seem to allow doing so readily and easily.


It can be done and indeed my install has 1024byte sectors. I also only have one partition. The key is to create the partition with an external utility such as EaseUS or AOMEI. As long as the partition is properly built, you can force Windows to use it during install. Windows then takes all of the files that would otherwise have separate partitions and puts them into folders.


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## Super XP (Feb 25, 2021)

> *Zen 3+* is expected to be *AMD's first AM5 CPU design* and should bring small IPC gains similar to the improvements from Zen to Zen+ in the range of 4% - 7%.


ZEN3+ should be on Socket AM4 just like ZEN to ZEN+ was on Socket AM4. It makes absolutely no sense to release a ZEN3 generation CPU on a new socket. 
If the rumour claims ZEN3+ is on the mysterious Socket AM5, that rumour is incorrect.



john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?


3-5% was an Intel problem. 
Not AMD  



BorisDG said:


> Am I?


Not all Games and Programs will gain you equal Performance. Some perform better than others. 




lexluthermiester said:


> That 3900X is an excellent CPU, why would you need to upgrade?


Its an addiction for some it seems


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## Vayra86 (Feb 25, 2021)

29%.

Not 2.9%. Right? Or is my vision blurry


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## InVasMani (Feb 25, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ah Zen5, I thought you meant Ryzen 5xxx. My bad.
> Nice, good example for why expanding memory channels can be of benefit. There many others.
> 
> It can be done and indeed my install has 1024byte sectors. I also only have one partition. The key is to create the partition with an external utility such as EaseUS or AOMEI. As long as the partition is properly built, you can force Windows to use it during install. Windows then takes all of the files that would otherwise have separate partitions and puts them into folders.


AOMEI ended up working well to move the reserve partition to the end of the NVME drive and was able to shrink the C:\ partition down in a size as well. Good enough to get over 400GB of NVME storage for Steam Games installs so as long as I don't install ARK on it quite a lot of games.


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## Mats (Feb 25, 2021)

Super XP said:


> It makes absolutely no sense to release a ZEN3 generation CPU on a new socket.


It makes a lot more sense than making Bulldozer/Excavator CPU's for AM4 back in 2016, and yet that happened. Yeah, we could come up various explanations for this, but the same goes for Zen3(+) + DDR5.

*New Process + new chiplets + new IO chip + new chip(sets) + new socket + new RAM standard + new PCIe standard, all in one generation? *Now THAT doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not really _longing_ for that.


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## Super XP (Mar 5, 2021)

Mats said:


> It makes a lot more sense than making Bulldozer/Excavator CPU's for AM4 back in 2016, and yet that happened. Yeah, we could come up various explanations for this, but the same goes for Zen3(+) + DDR5.
> 
> *New Process + new chiplets + new IO chip + new chip(sets) + new socket + new RAM standard + new PCIe standard, all in one generation? *Now THAT doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> I'm not really _longing_ for that.


AMD already muddled the naming scheme with mixing up ZEN2 and ZEN3 under the Ryzen 5000U series. This was a mistake by AMD. And it seems they are doing it again by mixing up ZEN3 that is Socket AM4 with ZEN3+ that is now said to be Socket AM5. 
How about keeping ZEN 3 anything onto AM4 and start fresh with ZEN4 AM5. 

Like what they've done down below mixing up the naming schemes. They should keep ZEN2 away from Ryzen 5000 series, that belongs to Ryzen 4000. This mixing up only causes confusion. And consumers don't know what they are buying. If I seen a Ryzen 7 5700U I would automatically assume its based on the newer ZEN 3 Micro-Architecture. Any consumer that finds out its actually based on ZEN2 will most likely return it, as they should for the dishonesty. 

This move comes from the Book of Intel. lol
Ryzen 7 5800U ZEN3 Cezanne
Ryzen 7 5700U ZEN2 Lucienne
Etc.,


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## HenrySomeone (Mar 5, 2021)

Super XP said:


> ZEN3+ should be on Socket AM4 just like ZEN to ZEN+ was on Socket AM4. It makes absolutely no sense to release a ZEN3 generation CPU on a new socket.
> If the rumour claims ZEN3+ is on the mysterious Socket AM5, that rumour is incorrect.


It makes quite a lot of sense if they don't want to be overly late with their own ddr5 & pcie5 platform, especially after being so vocal with "We're the first with pcie 4.0!!!" 
Let me explain: Zen 4 is supposed to be on TSMC 5nm, which is a hot item right now (and will continue to be so for quite some time) and there are bigger fish after it, which means that they will only be able to secure a significant amount of wafers after at least some of those other ones (especially Apple) will (partly) move to 3nm and that would likely mean 2H 2021 at best for the launch. Now they could probably do it sooner, but with laughable stocks just like Zen 3 and they can't afford another fiasco like that (or at least they shouldn't, but then again, this is AMD after all...  ). So, what do you do? You release a mid-generation on an "old" node with a new socket which should also help to reduce the amount of bugs that come with all new stuff (just like one poster above already mentioned); we know there are enough of them as it is already!
Oh and regarding the near 30% IPC uplift? God knows they'll need it against Alder Lake, especially after coming in (probably) 6 months late to the party!


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## Mats (Mar 5, 2021)

HenrySomeone said:


> God knows they'll need it against Alder Lake, especially after coming in (probably) 6 months late to the party!


6 months late to what? Intel's launch? I've never seen AMD (or Intel) trying to align their launches like that, mainly because they can't, and also because it's stupid and short sighted.
6 months sounds too long tho, I'd guess 3 - 4 months.


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## Super XP (Mar 5, 2021)

HenrySomeone said:


> h and regarding the near 30% IPC uplift? God knows they'll need it against Alder Lake, especially after coming in (probably) 6 months late to the party!


I like AMDs new ZEN strategy. In order to gain significant IPC increases, you need design overhauls versus just minor improvements. 
That's what AMD has done since ZEN. 
ZEN to ZEN+ Respectful IPC uplift 
ZEN+ to ZEN 2 Significant IPC uplift 
ZEN 2 to ZEN 3 Significant IPC uplift.
ZEN 3 to ZEN 4 Significant IPC uplift. 

Had AMD not done this, ZEN would have died a horrible death already.


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## KarymidoN (Mar 16, 2021)

Vendor said:


> wow that's amazing, i hope it's true, will totally blow intel out of the water



remember AMD promised 19% IPC increase on ZEN3 over ZEN2 and delivered that, so no reason to think they can't deliver it. i mean i wanna see it to believe cause ZEN3 is already so freaking powerful that is hard to believe they can squeeze more juice out of the ZEN architecture family... man what a bad time to be Intel.


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## Super XP (Mar 16, 2021)

KarymidoN said:


> remember AMD promised 19% IPC increase on ZEN3 over ZEN2 and delivered that, so no reason to think they can't deliver it. i mean i wanna see it to believe cause ZEN3 is already so freaking powerful that is hard to believe they can squeeze more juice out of the ZEN architecture family... man what a bad time to be Intel.


Like ZEN 2 into ZEN 3, ZEN 3 is pretty much a substantial overhaul over ZEN 2. It's like AMD took what it has learned about all it's ZEN designs and couples the best features all together.

ZEN 4 is also a new design, heavily overhauled according to Dr. Lisa Su. That's the only way to gain such incredible IPC gains per release.
We've witnessed it from ZEN to ZEN2 and from ZEN2 to ZEN3. Absolutely no reason to think ZEN4 won't follow this pattern in IPC gains.


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## KarymidoN (Mar 18, 2021)

Super XP said:


> Like ZEN 2 into ZEN 3, ZEN 3 is pretty much a substantial overhaul over ZEN 2. It's like AMD took what it has learned about all it's ZEN designs and couples the best features all together.
> 
> ZEN 4 is also a new design, heavily overhauled according to Dr. Lisa Su. That's the only way to gain such incredible IPC gains per release.
> We've witnessed it from ZEN to ZEN2 and from ZEN2 to ZEN3. Absolutely no reason to think ZEN4 won't follow this pattern in IPC gains.


Yeah, it feels weird to me how the ZEN architecture is volatile for AMD, almost every 2 years it gets a complete overhaul and some really solid gains...


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## Makaveli (Mar 18, 2021)

KarymidoN said:


> Yeah, it feels weird to me how the ZEN architecture is volatile for AMD, almost every 2 years it gets a complete overhaul and some really solid gains...



After listening to Jim Keller talk about architectures I don't think its volatile. Once you create the design there is always low hanging fruit you can improve on to get better performance until there is no more and you need a new arch.

That is Skylake the last 6 years which is now topped out and hence Rocket lake. Eventually Zen will get there and AMD will need a new arch.


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## Super XP (Mar 18, 2021)

KarymidoN said:


> Yeah, it feels weird to me how the ZEN architecture is volatile for AMD, almost every 2 years it gets a complete overhaul and some really solid gains...


Not sure why you claim the ZEN Architecture is volatile? When AMD has been achieving Technological Advancements, squeezing more efficiency, power savings and speed out of ZEN.

No more are the days of the past where CPU generations would gain you 1-5% if you are lucky in IPC gains. AMD solves this issue by architectural improvements for each ZEN generational design. That isn't volatility lol, that is Technological Advancements. A perfect example is Intel's Skylake, AMD did everything to avoid such fate, Skylake offered up to 1-5% IPC gains per gen, which is miserable at best.


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## quadibloc (Mar 19, 2021)

john_ said:


> How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?


AMD improved its processors by a large amount when they brought out the original Ryzen processors.
Intel, at the time, only needed to respond to Ryzen's new 8-core processors with a 6-core processor, though. But through the years following AMD's introduction of Ryzen, AMD has been pushing hard to improve its processors each year, and Intel had to take notice and match their pace as well.
That's how we moved: desktop processor performance has, due to AMD's resurgence, become an intensely competitive field.


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## Deleted member 205776 (Mar 19, 2021)

I don't mind CPUs progressing this fast -- means when I do eventually upgrade from my 3900X, I'll get an insane performance boost along with it.


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## A Computer Guy (Apr 5, 2021)

kayjay010101 said:


> What happened is people realized Intel was sitting on their ass, and AMD stopped eating crayons. ...


LOL, This is the best comment regarding AMD that I've read in awhile.



lynx29 said:


> I'm not counting out AM4 yet, AMD has switched their tune a couple times on backwards compatibility with mobo's, a Zen 3 + on refined 7nm node probably will still work in AM4 with a bios update on 'select mobos' aka higher end ones to mid-upper tier ones.  That's my guess anyway we will see.


That would be interesting.



trickson said:


> I just can't get enough of the Ryzen CPU's!
> I have 2 first gen Ryzens and one 3rd gen.
> Hope to add a 4th gen CPU soon!
> LOVE YOU AMD!


I so want a 3rd gen Ryzen but I'm already 169% satisfied with Zen2.



Super XP said:


> I like AMDs new ZEN strategy. In order to gain significant IPC increases, you need design overhauls versus just minor improvements.
> That's what AMD has done since ZEN.
> ZEN to ZEN+ Respectful IPC uplift
> ZEN+ to ZEN 2 Significant IPC uplift
> ...


I don't think they had much of a choice.  AMD was one foot in the grave when Zen came out.  Intel can basically afford to loose for awhile.


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