# High Temps on Scythe Mugen



## MikeTyson (Sep 25, 2010)

Basically I've got my CPU at 2.7GHz atm from 2.4 just as a test, and Real Temp reports 48 Celcius

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's a god awful temperature for one of these beasty coolers, I installed with AS5 and the temps are the same as the stock Intel cooler, what gives :|

And yes it's seated properly, all 4 pins clicked


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## streetfighter 2 (Sep 25, 2010)

I assume you mean 48C load right?

That is pretty bad (if it's idle then it's catastrophic).  Use too much thermal paste?  Use too little?  Malfunctioning thermal sensor?


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## MikeTyson (Sep 26, 2010)

That is idle yes, load was 60C

I applied it in the same way I always do, a small rice sized dot in the middle of the CPU

Anyways, I reseated it just to check but in doing so my motherboard died, so I don't have a computer right now...

I'm getting it RMA'd on Monday, cos I don't actually know what caused it. But the power button doesn't function now, and any graphics card I put in it doesn't give a display. And the onboard speaker doesn't beep anymore. It's just f*****

But regardless, I still don't get how my temps were so bad.... I did a sensor test with RealTemp and it didn't report any errors or anything


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## Bo$$ (Sep 26, 2010)

thats fine, lol these are 65nm processors not 45nm i get 65 load on mine with a big heatsink with MX-2

remove cmos battery for 30mins, put it back in, enjoy..


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## MikeTyson (Sep 26, 2010)

why would it be cmos when i didn't change any settings? all i did was installnew cooler


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## Dent1 (Sep 26, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> MikeTyson, 48c is not high, 60c load is not high either, presuming you are overclocking I would actually go as far as saying that its pretty good.




There is only so much that a air cooler can do, usually a huge limitation is the type of case you are using, some cases just do not offer enough ventilation to extract heat and insert enough cool air. As a result the case temp encapsulates the bad air and the pressure within the case in turn will increase the CPU/GPU temps, and in turn the CPU/GPU temps will also rise as a consequence.

Also, 



MikeTyson said:


> why would it be cmos when i didn't change any settings? all i did was installnew cooler



Its unlikely to break anything from removing the heatsink, the chances are when you re-attached the heatsink it wasnt on correctly or there was a small gap which you couldnt visually identify, some motherboards throw a fit if it "thinks" the heatsink isnt attached and hence will not boot up as a result.  My advice will be to keep reattaching the heatsink until the motherboard is satistified that its on! - There is probably no physical defect with your equipment. 

Sometimes if you remove the CPU or heatsink, some motherboards will automatically reset the bios to safety configuration. The safety configurations might disable your PCI-E card and re-enable your onboard automatically and without warning. I would take out the PCI-E video card and try to boot fromt he onboard, if you are successful turn off the onboard and turn on the PCI-E card, then insert the dedicated video card back in!


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## MikeTyson (Sep 26, 2010)

I dont have a case, it's all open in the air on my desk 

I've set my board back for RMA now, so we'll see what happens

It's very much broken if the power button doesnt even work, and it wasnt just the buttomn cos I tried different buttomns


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

Well I'm getting the board back from RMA today, they reported "No Fault Found" but I'm installing my shit in a case now instead so that there's less stress on the mobo when I mount a cooler... probs didn't enjoy me pressing down really hard on it to get the pins to click... will update later when it arrives ^_^

Just a quick P.S. anybody have a preferred method of applying AS5 to a CPU?


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## assaulter_99 (Oct 1, 2010)

Why not try adding another fan, they perform better in a push pull config. Otherwise, something must have been done wrong cause these are one of top dogs afaik. Anyways,  the scythe base is flat, you can simply put a lil grain of rice. Everyone has his methods though, so just experience till you are happy.


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## heky (Oct 1, 2010)

The grain of rice method works great for coolers with no HDT, and intel core processors. Also make sure you are not pushing too much voltage through the processor. That may be why you have high temps.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

Well I've reinstalled and now RealTemp reports about 44C idle on both cores... I guess obviously AS5 has a burn-in period of 200 hours too but still, these temps are really kinda sucky...

Any suggestions? I've reinstalled no end of times now, I'll get a pic up of my setup tomorrow I think, but everything is how it should be.

My GTX 460 is idling about 28C which is nice, it's just annoying that my CPU can't be cool too  Otherwise my hopes of overclocking to get the most out of this card have gone out the window :/


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

*sigh* Correction, idle 51C


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## JATownes (Oct 1, 2010)

is this the original Mugen or the Mugen II?


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

JATownes said:


> is this the original Mugen or the Mugen II?



Original


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## JATownes (Oct 1, 2010)

OK.  IDK about the mounting system on the original, but the Mugen II has PITA mounting system that is tricky to master without leaving gaps in the TIM.  Try and try again is all I can say.

Edit: Your mounting system is different.  So IDK about that.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

Hmm guess I'm buying a new cooler.

So far I can see the Arctic Freezer 7 Pro as best value for money

Any responses?


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## heky (Oct 1, 2010)

Dont buy it, its crap. Whats your budget? Xigmatek has some really good coolers.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

I guess about £25


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## WhiteLotus (Oct 1, 2010)

don't mean to sound rude, but when you read it does it say temp to tj max on it?


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## erocker (Oct 1, 2010)

Sounds like you possibly bent the motherboard too much while mounting the Mugen. I had a Scythe Infinity that would bend the heck out of motherboards. Poor design and it could use a backplate or something


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

Nah the temp to TJ max is different,  I know that 

And yea, this is really hard to mount without applying a great deal of pressure :/

But I  might as well just get another cooler... so any suggestions?


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## @RaXxaa@ (Oct 1, 2010)

for me the theermaltake frio is going pretty awsome and on 4.0v and 4Ghz the max LOAD temp is 50 on the amd cpu and costs about 59.99


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## erocker (Oct 1, 2010)

Cooler Master Hyper 212+... or a Xigmatek R1283. The Xiggy mounts very easily with the backplate, you just screw it in and it's foolproof.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 1, 2010)

Actually having looked up some reviews for the HDT-S1283 (Xigmatek) it looks amazing, definitely a worthwhile purchase... I'm gonna get it because of the backplate, like you say it's fool proof, and backplates should be a must for ALL coolers... otherwise you can never be sure of a flush match to the CPU heatspreader


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 1, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> Actually having looked up some reviews for the HDT-S1283 (Xigmatek) it looks amazing, definitely a worthwhile purchase... I'm gonna get it because of the backplate, like you say it's fool proof, and backplates should be a must for ALL coolers... otherwise you can never be sure of a flush match to the CPU heatspreader



the s1283 and r1283 are alittle different...
but should have about the same performance


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## pantherx12 (Oct 2, 2010)

Sending you a PM with some links : ]


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## MikeTyson (Oct 2, 2010)

Update:

Installed Akasa AK-961 instead, idling around 46C (with RealTemp) which is LESS than the Scythe Mugen, but only by a margin...

However it proves that even a smaller cooler is doing better with my CPU.. but then again, my temps should be lower than 46 at idle with AS5... so maybe this is just a faulty thermal diode?

BIOS reports my temps at 26C, so what's going on? BIOS is updated to latest version

Just ran a load test with prime95, maxed out at 59C with RealTemp

P.S. Thanks panther 

Edit: Conflict between CoreTemp and RealTemp


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## OneMoar (Oct 2, 2010)

check it again with HWmonitor also try some mx3 or mx4 if you can get it ac5 while good is getting a bit long in the tooth


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## MikeTyson (Oct 2, 2010)

HWMonitor reports the same temps as CoreTemp (the lower ones) so maybe RealTemp is wrong?


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 2, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> HWMonitor reports the same temps as CoreTemp (the lower ones) so maybe RealTemp is wrong?



most of the time people tend to go by real temp.i would go with the higher numbers just for safety.

on my i7 core temp shows lower temps by ~2-3c then realtemp so i use real temp because i feel better going with the higher number even if it is running the lower temp.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 3, 2010)

i cant actually find this "Xigmatek R1283" ANYWHERE! i wanted it cos of the backplate but it doesnt seem to exist...


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 3, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> i cant actually find this "Xigmatek R1283" ANYWHERE! i wanted it cos of the backplate but it doesnt seem to exist...



look for a  "Dark Knight-S1283V REV.W"
that should be what your wanting


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## theonedub (Oct 3, 2010)

I would see if this guy over @ EVGA would ship his DarkKnight overseas to you, he is asking $20. Here is a link to his heatware: http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=70639. Drop him an email or PM @ EVGA if you are a member with access to the Marketplace there.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 3, 2010)

theonedub said:


> I would see if this guy over @ EVGA would ship his DarkKnight overseas to you, he is asking $20. Here is a link to his heatware: http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=70639. Drop him an email or PM @ EVGA if you are a member with access to the Marketplace there.



Hmmm it'd probs cost me just as much as a brand new one to get it shipped here...

I've found one for around £30 including free delivery, is this the best cooler I can get for this money regardless of backplate or no backplate? 

I've also had a look at the CoolerMaster Hyper 212 Plus which seems to do a little better for the same price, and supports 2 fans for push-pull...

I think I may try my Scythe Mugen again with 2x120mm fans in push-pull and then another 80mm case fan helping to suck the air away straight after it's blown out from the Scythe. I'll do it later on and report back, I just hate having to take the whole motherboard out to be able to get my fingers to push the clips in properly... that's what broke my mobo the last time

Can anybody offer a way of pushing down on the clips without bending the mobo? Iknow you guys have tricks for some stuff


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## MikeTyson (Oct 3, 2010)

IMPORTANT UPDATE:

Installed Scythe Mugen again, with 2X120MM fans (push pull config) and no change in temps, AT ALL

i think this processor or mobo is definitely broken, because there's no way in f****** hell this thing is still so hot after all this time with a push pull mugen on top and AS5...

i've even ENSURED all the pins have clicked one by one (INSTALLED IT DIAGONALLY) and double checked afterwards, AND even taken the measure of leaving the system on my desk flat out so the weight of the cooler ensures even more contact with the processor JUST IN CASE it's loose at some point

after all this, absolutely no change.............. to be fair this E6600 came out of a rig (Mesh Computers) that blew up so it may be faulty, may not be... but I reckon it is, cos this is bullshit


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## Peter1986C (Oct 3, 2010)

Afaik, such a cpu is fine until 72C @ load.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 3, 2010)

Chevalr1c said:


> Afaik, such a cpu is fine until 72C @ load.



Hmmm here's something important I just found:

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/intel-dts-specs,news-29460.html

it says the TJMAX for the E6xxx series of CPUs (B2 stepping, which mine is) is 70C, which if correct would make my temps 20 degrees lower than RealTemp reports.. and considering Intel released this information, I dunno what to believe anymore...

But I will say, BIOS reports my CPU temp at 25C, so I'm not sure what to believe ! :|


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## arnoo1 (Oct 3, 2010)

that are bad temps 48c idle, maybe bad contact or the cpu/heatsink is scratched, re apply thermal shit over whole cpu ,just thin

i have a e6750 (also 65nm) with Vcore @ 1.024V and load temps are 42-43c, idle 15c. room temp =18c and cpu heatsink was a scythe ninja 2 with default 1100rpm fan and some arctic silver 5


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## MikeTyson (Oct 3, 2010)

well if your room temp is 18c and your idling at 15c there's something wrong


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## theonedub (Oct 4, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> well if your room temp is 18c and your idling at 15c there's something wrong



 Correct (mainly just proves the sensors really arent all that accurate under ~50C)


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

theonedub said:


> Correct (mainly just proves the sensors really arent all that accurate under ~50C)



So what's your two cents on my situation?


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## theonedub (Oct 4, 2010)

I think you just have a chip that runs a little warm. I had a Q9300 that had similar temps and it ran fine up to when I sold it. Rather than get another cooler I would see if there was a backplate made for the Mugen (or if the MugenII backplate would work), and if not, just leave it be.


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## arnoo1 (Oct 4, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> well if your room temp is 18c and your idling at 15c there's something wrong



nope

internal temps FTW, that's also the temp uou see if your are in the bios, i have a few asus boards and all show the same, shitty software isn't going lower than 25,  and what do you think? there is a massive heatsink with fan on the than "green" cpu just tdp off 65w when Vcore is 1.2v. and also my case have 3 140mm 68cfm intake fans


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## theonedub (Oct 4, 2010)

No air cooler will cool a chip to below ambient temperatures.


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## pantherx12 (Oct 4, 2010)

Mike buy one of those coolers I linked you to, they smash the shit out of any xigmatek cooler lol

Hell they're better than most thermalright/noc stuff except for their dual tower coolers.


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## assaulter_99 (Oct 4, 2010)

theonedub said:


> No air cooler will cool a chip to below ambient temperatures.



I second that, I also have an e6750 and ambient temps are 20" and my cpu is idling @ 32" (3.4 ghz)


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

pantherx12 said:


> Mike buy one of those coolers I linked you to, they smash the shit out of any xigmatek cooler lol
> 
> Hell they're better than most thermalright/noc stuff except for their dual tower coolers.



Yea but the thing is I don't know if it's worth me buying another cooler, cos it seems no matter what cooler I use the temps never move...


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## assaulter_99 (Oct 4, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> Yea but the thing is I don't know if it's worth me buying another cooler, cos it seems no matter what cooler I use the temps never move...



True indeed, after all you've done, I guess its safe to call it a day. I'm quite surprised though, its pretty strange to see a e6*** at stock speed @ 60" on load. It would be normal maybe on the stock intel fan, but even then... If I were you, I wouldn't bother throwing any more dough in it. 

Well I just did some diggings, even the stock intel fan should bring you up to 3.2ghz/60" with no hassle. So you either had bad luck or something is wrong.


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## vega22 (Oct 4, 2010)

i bet your ihs is warped as hell and needs lapping.

i also think you should give everest a try, its much better at reading the right tj max.

if you dont want to take the core readings as true just go off what the bios is reading the socket temp as.


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## heky (Oct 4, 2010)

Your tj temps are wrong. You have to set it to the correct values in realtemp and in coretemp. You also never mentioned on what volts you are running your chip. At 1.5v it will idle that high. But as a said, correct the tj values and you will be all set. That Mugen is more than enough for your chip.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

heky said:


> Your tj temps are wrong. You have to set it to the correct values in realtemp and in coretemp. You also never mentioned on what volts you are running your chip. At 1.5v it will idle that high. But as a said, correct the tj values and you will be all set. That Mugen is more than enough for your chip.



Yea but if I put in the correct TjMax values then it says I'm idling at like 28/29c which I know can't be right cos my room is pretty hot, plus if I'm at 25c in BIOS then loading into windows and only gaining 4c definitely doesn't sound right...

I'm genuinely at a loss of what to do, I guess I'm just gonna have to stick it out and tell myself "Who care about temps, just overclock it anyway" so I'm just gonna overclock regardless of temperature cos even if this thing breaks it doesn't matter, cos to be fair it's already broke...

Now, I'm currently on this:







I've set the TjMax to 85c even though for my chip it's 70c, just to be on the safe side...

I've played a few rounds of Medal of Honor Beta on these settings and it didn't stutter or show any signs of instability, so what's the next step... push it further? Or go for a proper stability test?


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## brandonwh64 (Oct 4, 2010)

E6600s are great CPUs, i had one that would OC to 3.6ghz stable but took almost the limit in volts so i ran it at 3.2ghz its whole life. use OCCT or IntelBurnTest to check stability and report back temps


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

Any good?


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

Tried 3.1GHz and failed to boot ...


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## assaulter_99 (Oct 4, 2010)

For a 25% OC, i would settle for it, even though its on the high side. But heck like you said so yourself, just relax, forget the numbers, just run the damn chip! You're only torturing yourself really.


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## heky (Oct 4, 2010)

When you put in the 70 tj, it is correct for the temperature to show only a couple of degrees above ambient. The termal sensors on intel core 2 line are extremely inaccurate below 50 degrees celsius. Its the load temps that count. Now just crank up the volts and oc that chip as high as you can. And dont worry.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

heky said:


> When you put in the 70 tj, it is correct for the temperature to show only a couple of degrees above ambient. The termal sensors on intel core 2 line are extremely inaccurate below 50 degrees celsius. Its the load temps that count. Now just crank up the volts and oc that chip as high as you can. And dont worry.



Oh I see... thanks (; But I've never really OC'd a C2D before, however I did overclock my old Pentium D 920 a lot from it's stock 2.8GHz on an ASUS P5W DH Deluxe 

So what do you think would be a good voltage for my overclock? Looking at the previous screenshot I posted, do you think I need more voltage to reach 3.1GHz, is that why it failed to boot?

Most people can achieve 3.3-3.4 on stock voltage, and I've already had to up my voltage by 1 notch just to reach 3Ghz. what the hell


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## assaulter_99 (Oct 4, 2010)

Yeah, I've seen guys reach 3.6 on 1.5v. At 1.2 it'll lack juice. But the more you'll give it, the more it'll heat up! Another thing though, not every chip will give the same results. Its much like a lottery really.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

Forgot to crop it, my bad...

But yea, that is with TjMax 70

Obviously with the default 90 it would be 63c load, which I guess isn't so bad, but hmmm

Next step, more voltage and higher clock?

[IMPORTANT] *Towards the end of the Prime95 test there was a really horrid noise coming from my CPU (literally) it was like a really loud hissing noise, and when I stopped the test it went away completely. Wth is that about!?! it sounded like it was coming from under the cooler, literally from the CPU*

But that was during the cool down period, when the CPU temperature was decreasing... so what the hell was it?


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## heky (Oct 4, 2010)

The noise is not from the cpu, its from the voltage regulation circiut of the motherboard. What motherboard do you have and how old is it?


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## MikeTyson (Oct 4, 2010)

GIGABYTE GA-G31M-ES2L

It's brand new, about 1 month old


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## heky (Oct 4, 2010)

Do a test. Run the cpu at stock and run prime again. If it still makes the sound it shouldnt be problem. My old Abit ip35pro made the same sound, but had no problems whatsoever. It stil runs my dualcore overclocked to 3.4ghz with no problems.


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 4, 2010)

while i love gigabyte boards i wouldn't push the chip very much on it. The CPU power phases look really weak on that board.


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## unclewebb (Oct 4, 2010)

heky said:


> When you put in the 70 tj, it is correct for the temperature to show only a couple of degrees above ambient. The termal sensors on intel core 2 line are extremely inaccurate below 50 degrees celsius.



The numbers released by Intel at one of their IDF conferences were referred to as TJ Target but Tom's Hardware assumed that these were TJMax numbers.  These numbers have nothing to do with actual TJMax.  Intel released some low ball numbers and then quietly mentioned that actual TJ Max might be a little higher but were really not sure by how much.  Their whole presentation was nothing but a farce.

When my comments got back to the person in charge of the presentation, they decided that it was all a mistake and then released a new set of numbers that were different than the first set of numbers they released but still weren't close to the truth.  They were still playing the game that these are just TJ target numbers so TJ Max is a mystery.

By default, RealTemp uses TJMax=90C for an E6600 for a reason.  I owned an E6600 and tested it thoroughly and TJMax was nowhere near 70C.  The other problem that chip originally had was the heat spreader on top of the CPU was not even close to flat.  The 4 corners were up much higher than the center so even the best cooler in the world wasn't going to help anything since it made such poor contact at the center where the cores are.

I took the sand paper and got to work and I started with a very rough cut at first and the metal was flying off the corners of the IHS while the center was still untouched.

Anyway, the 70C TJMax was a bad joke and the mysterious 85C number that Intel was happy for users to believe for a long time was another joke from the Pentium 4 era.  Neither of these values are correct.

For those that don't know, there are two completely different E6600 CPUs.  I think the early E6600 used different L2 cache chips that created a lot more heat, especially at idle but this is not publicly documented.  The rated power consumption at idle between the two different versions is completely different.  The early one is SL9S8 and that was replaced with a more efficient SL9ZL which consumed something like half as much power at idle.  Unfortunately Intel has changed their website recently so I can't find the exact numbers for you.  Next time you have your heatsink off look at the model number on it and I bet you have one of these early chips that ran hot as hell and I bet you your IHS is far from flat.  Put a straight edge on the IHS from corner to corner.  I could see a pile of daylight at the center when I held my E6600 up to the window.

The cheap way for Intel to fix this problem was to mislead people by releasing inaccurate TJ target information and then they tried to say that all these sensors are inaccurate at lower temperatures.  Many of the 45nm sensors they used are junk but the early 65nm sensors are actually excellent, when you are using the correct TJMax and that's definitely not 70C.

Edit: I found this info.

*Changes in new revision of B2 stepping: extended HALT power was reduced to 12W*

The original E6600 - B2 was 22 watts of idle power consumption.  One of these early chips is going to put out a lot more heat at idle compared to a 45nm Core 2 Duo that is very efficient.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 5, 2010)

unclewebb said:


> The numbers released by Intel at one of their IDF conferences were referred to as TJ Target but Tom's Hardware assumed that these were TJMax numbers.  These numbers have nothing to do with actual TJMax.  Intel released some low ball numbers and then quietly mentioned that actual TJ Max might be a little higher but were really not sure by how much.  Their whole presentation was nothing but a farce.
> 
> When my comments got back to the person in charge of the presentation, they decided that it was all a mistake and then released a new set of numbers that were different than the first set of numbers they released but still weren't close to the truth.  They were still playing the game that these are just TJ target numbers so TJ Max is a mystery.
> 
> ...



Oh wow, thank you  That's a really good post!  Mine is the 65nm version in case you're wondering  Hmm yea, mine being a B2 I guess as you say it probably does suffer from these problems, but it's a real job trying to get my Scythe off of my motherboard without the fans falling off too, cos they're only held on by sellotape

What I don't understand (and hope you can clear up for me) is why throughout all the other instances of E6600 overclocking I have seen, nobody else has reported this problem or said that their temps were extremely high for no reason?

I mean to be honest I don't even have a problem with running the CPU naked if I have to, but obviously that's a last option... can you guarantee that mine is probably bowed in the middle? Cos it's really a lot of effort to go to just to have a look 

Is there no way I can just tell what model it is using CPU-Z?


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## unclewebb (Oct 5, 2010)

Both versions of the E6600 will show up as an E6600 - B2 in CPU-Z.  It doesn't differentiate between the two different models.

Here's some background info that explains what information was released at the Intel Developer's Forum.





They refer to these values as TJ Target and the point that I refer to as TJ Max can actually be higher than the target value.

At the first conference they released this information.




The TJMax value that most software originally assumed to be correct was 85C so this was quite a change.  After doing some research I discovered that 85C was based on the previous Pentium 4 generation of CPUs.  There was a bit within the CPU and depending on whether this bit was set or not, TJMax was either 85C or 100C and then Intel later admitted that this bit only applies to mobile processors.  I can't think of any Core 2 mobile processors that have a TJMax of 85C.  That's what originally happened.  Early monitoring software would read this bit and guess at 85C or 100C.  Neither value was right in my opinion.  Based on testing with a laser thermometer, I believe 90C is a lot closer to actual TJMax for the average retail E6600 CPU.

Through my contact at Tom's Hardware, I let Intel know that 70C was a farce and that number did not agree with any of my testing.  The programmer of Core Temp also complained and decided to ignore Intel's version of things too.  Intel finally deciding to clear up the TJMax confusion only led to more confusion.

After that, they took my value of 90C and their value of 70C and split the difference and decided that they had made a mistake and the real TJ Target value is actually 80C.  This updated information was released at the next developer's forum but was not well reported.  Here's one of the slides.





Once again, this is a TJ Target value so Intel was able to release this info and keep everyone sort of happy.  If I was going to continue claiming that TJ Max is 90C, Intel could just say that 80C is the TJ Target value and actual TJ Max might be higher.  They did a great job of covering their bums and no one was able to call them on this.  The way their presentation was worded left it wide open to interpretation.  Even if someone tested 100 processors and they were all TJMax=90C, that didn't disagree with their presentation and TJ Target values so it was impossible to prove anything.  That's about the time I gave up buying endless processors to test.

After all, who are users going to believe, a big multi-national company like Intel or some geek in his basement with his laser thermometer comparing CPUs and power consumption readings with a $15 Kill-a-Watt meter.  

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand the motivation on Intel's part.  If user's start assuming that TJMax is less than the actual TJMax then their CPUs will be reported at a lower core temperature and there will be less complaints and less RMA claims.

After all this, there were many users that glossed over the TJ Target disclaimer that Intel used at their presentation and decided to start using the original numbers they released as TJ Max.  My contact at Tom's Hardware had an E6600 that based on my opinion of TJMax, was running hot as hell and he was very skeptical.  His was an early E6600 - SL9S8 so I offered him a very sweet deal.  I traded him a Q6600 - G0 straight across for his E6600 - B2.  It took him about two seconds to agree to that deal.  

I have a Tuniq Tower air cooler which was a decent air cooler in it's day and even with that this CPU was running hot as hell.  I also use a Kill-a-Watt meter and noticed right away that it was drawing far more power at idle compared to when I had my E8400 dual core in there.  It was also putting out way more heat than my original and very similar E6400 - SL9S9.  The E6400 was basically identical to an E6600 but half of the L2 cache was disabled.  My E6400 was a late E6400 and his E6600 was an early production version so I thought that maybe part of the difference was that Intel changed out the L2 cache chips to a more efficient version and that's how they got their idle power consumption numbers down.  I'm not an Intel insider so all I can do is guess.  The bottom line is that the E6600 I tested ran hot as hell and put out way more heat than other similar processors at idle.

After I sanded down the heatspreader, temperatures got better but it still consumed more power and ran hotter than other CPUs I have tested.  It put out more heat at idle than my Q6600 - G0.

Anyway, after getting it cleaned up, I ran it for 10+ hours of Prime95 action and here are the results.  You can see the voltage and temperatures based on TJMax=90C.  It was in an open case with the room temperature around 20C, cooled by a Tuniq Tower heatsink with the fan on low.  Your temperatures of your E6600 don't seem too unusual to me.






Not everyone in these forums was around way back when the original E6600 came out.  Intel might have done a running production change of the cache chips on the original SL9S8 and not bothered to change the sSpec model number.  I don't know and the people that do know all these details will never tell you.

If you want your CPU to run cooler then I guess you will have to pull it apart and have a look at it.  I've seen quite a few chips and this E6600 was the worst IHS that I had ever seen.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 5, 2010)

Oh wow!!! That post was AMAZING!  Thank you so much ^_^ I do believe this is one of the earlier E6600s as the original owner (my friend who lives like down the road) got his Mesh PC at the start of all the Core 2 Hype with 7950GT SLi etc... so it was a beasty PC and ergo must've been the early hardware. I will have a look when I get home tomorrow afternoon and give you some numbers about my CPU from the heatspreader, and try and show you a picture of a razorblade against the IHS... then we can move forward from there 

One question though, the E6600 in your screenshot of CPU-Z seems to be running a lot higher core voltage than mine... so I would expect it to be a fair way hotter, whereas mine seems overly hot at a low voltage :/

But yea thanks so much for your advice! I will definitely put t into practice tomorrow and let you know the results ^_^ I do believe I have some sandpaper around somewhere, and I may invest some time in lapping both the Mugen and the CPU itself, if it's going to make a good difference 

You're very informed it seems, and I like that! However I still can't understand why a lot of other people when the E6600 was released reported very low temps etc and loved this chip for it's overclockability, even on the stock cooler... am I just perhaps unlucky as well as all of the above factors? Thanks again ^_^


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## unclewebb (Oct 5, 2010)

When the E6600 was released, there was no monitoring software available that was using the correct TJMax value.

I have no idea what percent of E6600 CPUs were manufactured that had the higher idle power consumption.  Another thing that doesn't make sense is I had a very similar E6400 that ran cool and could overclock like crazy, Prime95 stable for 4 hours at 3640 MHz out in my cool garage one winter, but this E6600 was totally limited by its heat output on the exact same.  The original owner, the guy that wrote the Tom's Hardware TJMax article, got this E6600 up to 3.6GHz too and I think a little beyond but I can't imagine it was good for anything beyond a CPU-Z validation.  I overclocked it higher than 3.0 GHz but the idle temperatures were getting insane.

There are two possible problems that can also lead to high core temperatures.  Some of them had an IHS that wasn't very flat so the heatsink made poor contact but there were also problems with the solder job Intel did between the IHS and the cores underneath so the heat transfer between the cores and the IHS wasn't as good as it could have been.

All of these processors work just fine when you are running them at default specs.  It's when you start trying to overclock them with extra core voltage that any problems start to become obvious.  It will be interesting to see what you find out when you pull your CPU out for an inspection.

What's your typical room temperature and is your case open or closed?

I forgot to mention.  That screen shot shows the CPU running at full load with the core voltage manually set as close to the default VID as I could get it.  That's not much higher than your CPU.  When your CPU is fully loaded, what VID voltage does RealTemp show and what actual voltage does CPU-Z show?

Here's the latest version if you want to upgrade.
http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/1872/Real_Temp_3.60.html


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## MikeTyson (Oct 5, 2010)

Well I don't have anything that measures my room temperature specifically so I couldn't say, but it's the hottest room in the house... in past summers when I've had a temp sensor in there I think it was about 23/24c, but to be honest I have no actual idea what it is 

I don't actually have a case, I have my stuff just laid out on a desk but it gets plenty of air and stuff so that's no worry ^_^ Cos it's next to the window and my window is always open

EDIT: are you talking about stock or right now at 3GHz?

2ND EDIT: What I will also say, is that my temps don't really change regardless of what cooler and what paste I'm using whether it's Intel stock, Akasa AK-961 or the giant Sycthe


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## unclewebb (Oct 5, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> 2ND EDIT: What I will also say, is that my temps don't really change regardless of what cooler and what paste I'm using whether it's Intel stock, Akasa AK-961 or the giant Sycthe



That's a very good sign of IHS heat spreader problems.  If the IHS is not flat then it doesn't matter what heatsink you are using because none of them will be making full contact with the cores.

The default VID voltage for the E6600 I tested was 1.3250 as shown in the picture.  I wanted to see how far I could overclock this CPU without the core voltage going beyond that level.  I was good for a reliable 3000 MHz.  I shipped it off after I was done testing it to a person that needed it for a Dell computer he had.  His Dell had no way to increase the voltage so I thought if he could overclock it with SetFSB or something like that then he could possibly get 3.0 GHz out of it.  In that exchange I ended up with an E4300.   

I'm not a very smart trader.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 6, 2010)

You definitely are smart! Getting rid of an E6600 which sucks in general due to all these faults, for an E4300 which can probably overclock until the cows come home.. 

I will be checking my CPU later today, and I'll give you some numbers! I think I may have to buy some sandpaper too, if I'm really gonna do this properly.

In addition, what's your advice on running naked cores, any good? Cos it saves me having to use sandpaper!


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## pantherx12 (Oct 6, 2010)

MikeTyson said:


> You definitely are smart! Getting rid of an E6600 which sucks in general due to all these faults, for an E4300 which can probably overclock until the cows come home..
> 
> I will be checking my CPU later today, and I'll give you some numbers! I think I may have to buy some sandpaper too, if I'm really gonna do this properly.
> 
> In addition, what's your advice on running naked cores, any good? Cos it saves me having to use sandpaper!





You'll need several types of sand paper, buy a cpu lapping kit from chilledpc.co.uk or something.

As for naked chip, it can be risky, popping the IHS off can damage the silicon.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 6, 2010)

Hmmm yea, I've seen some videos on how to get it off with a razorblade on youtube, looks fairly straight forward and I consider myself to be SORT OF smart! 

i just don't wanna invest any more money in this CPU at all, that includes £6 for a lapping kit (not including postage) cos it's really bugging me now..

If anybody is selling a cheap Core 2 Duo I'd be happy to take it (but by cheap I mean like £0-25)


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## unclewebb (Oct 6, 2010)

The E4300 are generally good overclockers but with the reduced L2 cache, you have to overclock the hell out of them to try to equal the performance of the E6600, especially in gaming where the cache makes a big difference.

I don't recommend popping off the IHS either.  I just pulled out two sheets of sand paper from my garage.  There was no need to get too technical about things or to produce some sort of mirror finish.  Just knocking off the 4 corners allowed the heatsink to start making a lot better contact with the IHS and cores in the center.  A mild clean up after that with some finer sandpaper was good enough. 

As brandonwh64 posted, 3.2GHz is usually a nice happy spot for these CPUs.  Some can do more than this 24/7 if everything is set up right but the heat goes up rapidly the higher you go from here.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 6, 2010)

Well here's an update that may completely shock you haha 

I've just purchased an Intel Xeon E3110 3GHz 6MB Cache LGA 775 CPU  I figured cos it's 45nm, a lot higher clock speed from stock, and lower heat output coupled with a larger cache is gonna give me better performance from stock, AND more headroom for overclocking! Because my CPU won't be burning up something fierce anymore  Most people seem to be able to hit around the 4GHz mark with these Xeon E3110s... so hopefully I can do the same! Thank you for all your help unclewebb, and when the CPU arrives I shall remove my E6600 and tell you exactly what's on it, and examine the IHS in great detail to try and discover what's wrong with it


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## unclewebb (Oct 6, 2010)

Here's what the previous owner got out of the E6600 that I traded for.







Was it stable?  Hell no but it sure looks like he was having fun.  

Hopefully you're new Xeon will be able to run at that speed and actually be able to do it reliably.  Now that your E6600 is expendable, why not have some fun with it.  The above screen shot took over 1.72 volts.  So much for his story about his E6600 being owned by a little old lady that never overclocked.


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## MikeTyson (Oct 6, 2010)

I would! But... I'm really poor, so I'm probably gonna sell it  In one piece!


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