# how much space do I need to Chia be profitable?



## Yan_ (Apr 22, 2021)

I've allocated two plots of 101GiB, one is finished and the other is being created, is this worth?






for temp, I used a CS3030


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## Hardcore Games (Apr 26, 2021)

A low cost 4TB hard disk is plenty of room for Chia according to those I know adopting it


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## Superzuber (May 13, 2021)

With the current state of the network farming with anything below 30TB has really low chance of having the needed block and getting reward, there should be mining pools in few days available for small farmers. AFAIK it should be possible to join the pool with current plots with some adjustment. Also beware of joining any pool that asks for your private key (china pools currently runs this system).


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## silentbogo (May 13, 2021)

Just started a little CHIA farming experiment myself, and AFAIK pools haven't been introduced to the system formally(right now each full node runs as a pool for itself).
At current difficulty and network size you need at least 30-40TB to have a chance of solving a block ~once a month (realistically it could take a couple of months).
So, the more storage you have - the higher is your chance of getting paid. It's profitable either way, but I assume you don't want to wait a year or two for a single block reward.
I'm currently at 35 plots, and in a few days I'll start adding more 4TB HDDs to the rig. Maybe dedicate my spare 500GB SSD as a TMP, so I won't have to torture my main 1TB drive.
Also, if you decide to plot in parallel, you may need a bigger SSD. My 1TB drive ran out of space within hours while doing 4 plots simultaneously, so aim at 300-350GB tmp per plot at a time, if you want to speed up the process, not run out of space, and not kill your SSD. Another thing to note, is that plotting in parallel will increase your RAM and CPU usage.


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## ShiBDiB (May 16, 2021)

Chia has become completely useless to farm below 50TB (and is only getting worse). It scaled horribly once the whales jumped on it.

I'm taking a step back from it until pools are a thing.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

Most people didn't believe me when I told them back in March to jump in (a few days before mainnet was launched).

Oh well, it had a good run for me.


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## freeagent (May 16, 2021)

I saw this video a few days ago..  I don't think it would be something I would be interested in 

SSD Killer? We Tested Chia Cryptocurrency Farming for one Week - YouTube


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## Hardcore Games (May 16, 2021)

I was discussing this with some Chinese miners I know and they also said Chia is useless now

This will eliminate demand for hard disks and SSD as people realize that Chia has seen better days.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

Hardcore Games said:


> I was discussing this with some Chinese miners I know and they also said Chia is useless now
> 
> This will eliminate demand for hard disks and SSD as people realize that Chia has seen better days.


"Useless"?

It's constantly growing:








						Chia price today, XCH to USD live, marketcap and chart | CoinMarketCap
					

Get the latest Chia price, XCH market cap, trading pairs, charts and data today from the world’s number one cryptocurrency price-tracking website




					coinmarketcap.com
				





			https://www.chiaexplorer.com/charts/netspace
		


Don't be surprised if it reaches 0.1 BTC (50k USD) at the end of this cycle.


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## Hardcore Games (May 16, 2021)




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## ShiBDiB (May 16, 2021)

Hardcore Games said:


>


This video is already outdated, 10TB is not profitable at all right now. 


jermando said:


> "Useless"?
> 
> It's constantly growing:
> 
> ...



We're not talking value, we're talking farming profitability. It's currently pointless to farm Chia unless you can dedicate at a bare minimum 50TB of space. It's a whales only coin right now until pools are implemented.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> We're not talking value, we're talking farming profitability. It's currently pointless to farm Chia unless you can dedicate at a bare minimum 50TB of space. It's a whales only coin right now until pools are implemented.


I agree that it makes sense to wait for (official) pools (not hpool!).

But personally I joined the network a few days before mainnet was launched and it was super profitable for me (with old/unused HDDs, so zero investment), sooo... 

Few people listened though!


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## sepheronx (May 16, 2021)

I am waiting on @silentbogo, that old Perogie to start his mining group so I can join.


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## Space Lynx (May 16, 2021)

so what is Chia storing on your hard drives? is it just random numbers for the sake of mining? because if its personal stuff to help offload server bandwidth... that's a whole issue unto its own legally speaking...


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## silentbogo (May 16, 2021)

Just a couple more weeks, guys. Backend is already there, settings are in config files, and UI for pooling is the next thing on Trello board. It's happening!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393226565455015942Although, the network size is growing so fast that I may still need to order half-a-dozen 4-6TB drives. Eyeing a SAS controller w/ Enterprise Dell drives on my next paycheck.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> so what is Chia storing on your hard drives? is it just random numbers for the sake of mining? because if its personal stuff to help offload server bandwidth... that's a whole issue unto its own legally speaking...


It doesn't offer cloud storage (like storj does). If that was the case, you would see much increased download/upload traffic.

It just stores huge "Excel sheets" with tons of hashes (hash tables) called "plots" (each plot stores around 4 billion hashes).

One lucky hash could be the winning plot... hence why plots are like lottery tickets (the more you have...)


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## Space Lynx (May 16, 2021)

excellent more electricity usage for nothing but short term greed. I do hope they figure out how to use RAM as crypto next, humans don't deserve this planet.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> excellent more electricity usage for nothing but short term greed. I do hope they figure out how to use RAM as crypto next, humans don't deserve this planet.


HDDs don't consume a lot of electricity, especially while being idle. Nothing like GPUs.

Greed is a moot point IMHO. Non-gamers (they're still a majority, mind you) will say that playing video games is a waste of time & electricity.

Switch gamers will say that PS/XBOX consoles consume too much electricity.

PS/XBOX gamers will say that beefy PCMR rigs consume too much electricity.

See where I'm going? Criticism/moving goalposts just don't stop.

Human beings will never be satisfied, so just do what you wanna do. Nobody should feel guilt for doing a hobby, especially criticism coming from internet strangers.


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## sepheronx (May 16, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> Just a couple more weeks, guys. Backend is already there, settings are in config files, and UI for pooling is the next thing on Trello board. It's happening!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393226565455015942Although, the network size is growing so fast that I may still need to order half-a-dozen 4-6TB drives. Eyeing a SAS controller w/ Enterprise Dell drives on my next paycheck.


ah man.  I gotta start saving for more drives.  I wanna join whatever pool you are on.  I figure why not use my mining rig as is to pull chia as well?


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## 80251 (May 16, 2021)

jermando said:


> HDDs don't consume a lot of electricity, especially while being idle. Nothing like GPUs.
> 
> Greed is a moot point IMHO. Non-gamers (they're still a majority, mind you) will say that playing video games is a waste of time & electricity.
> 
> ...



I've heard this argument before. How many people game 24-7-365? No one I've ever known and no one I've ever known has even come close to 1/5 of that figure.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

80251 said:


> I've heard this argument before. How many people game 24-7-365? No one I've ever known and no one I've ever known has even come close to 1/5 of that figure.


The proper answer is: _"I don't care about what non-gamers think, I'll play as much as I want"_.

Non-gamers = your dad/mom/aunt/grandma etc.

A confident person doesn't care about what others think.


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## 80251 (May 16, 2021)

jermando said:


> The proper answer is: _"I don't care about what non-gamers think, I'll play as much as I want"_.
> 
> Non-gamers = your dad/mom/aunt/grandma etc.
> 
> A confident person doesn't care about what others think.


No the proper response is who is wasting more power.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 16, 2021)

80251 said:


> No the proper response is who is wasting more power.


OK:










Chia is even less than BTC.


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## Hardcore Games (May 17, 2021)

the sooner the speculative bubble is dead and buried the better


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## Space Lynx (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> OK:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



your source is a twitter handle called @hasoverride  wth is this.  no. 

this thread is useless and needs to be locked. learn proper primary sources.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> your source is a twitter handle called @hasoverride  wth is this.  no.
> 
> this thread is useless and needs to be locked. learn proper primary sources.


So Chia consumes more electricity than the global banking infrastructure? You didn't answer this. You don't seem to have any proper counterarguments, you're just angry. Temper your anger and then maybe we can discuss.

Next time I'll ask for permission from sanctimonious... internet strangers about "proper" sources. No. WTH. <-- see, I can do that too, it's not "smart" at all.

This thread is indeed useless when people like you don't want to be educated with facts (I answered all your questions, unlike you) and instead behave like cultists.


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## 80251 (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> OK:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gold mining produces something of actual use (it's used minimally in electronics) as does the banking industry (loans to expand businesses, personal loans, mortgages, jobs to service all those needs etc.) . What goods or services does any type of cryptocurrency create (aside from money laundering, financing islamic terrorism, the illegal arms trade, drug cartels, child pornography)?


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

80251 said:


> Gold mining produces something of actual use (it's used minimally in electronics) as does the banking industry (loans to expand businesses, personal loans, mortgages, jobs to service all those needs etc.) . What goods or services does any type of cryptocurrency create (aside from money laundering, financing islamic terrorism, the illegal arms trade, drug cartels, child pornography)?


Nice FUD attempt. You're no better than Medieval Church religious zealots claiming that _"You'll rot in hell, infidel!"_ if you don't do what the cult dictates.

Chia isn't even anonymous to begin and yet, it funds... terrorism? How so? Same for BTC/ETH. You don't even know which cryptos provide true anonymity.








						Bitcoin Is a ‘Boon for Surveillance’, Says Former CIA Director - Decrypt
					

The technology behind Bitcoin is a “boon for surveillance” should be by governments to fight crime, according to a report by an ex-CIA boss.




					decrypt.co
				




Get your facts straight and leave emotional BS arguments out. Is this place a hive mind?


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## xrror (May 17, 2021)

Noob questions here: Does Chia actually need high performance I/O? I assume it does else the big players would just buy as much spinning rust as possible. 2nd Chia seems to murder NAND storage pretty consistently (read/write cycle) so at what point does it factor in where having to replace those 4TB and 8TB SSD's every 6/12 months make a dent in profit?

I'd assume xPoint would be ideal for this, but it's cheaper to burn out NAND drives before committing to the big xpoint drives?

Again just questions from a noob.


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## Final_Fighter (May 17, 2021)

i picked up some more hdds to have on hand. not for mining tho. i know that ill need more storage and this coins looking to do to hdds what eth did to gpus.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

xrror said:


> Noob questions here: Does Chia actually need high performance I/O? I assume it does else the big players would just buy as much spinning rust as possible. 2nd Chia seems to murder NAND storage pretty consistently (read/write cycle) so at what point does it factor in where having to replace those 4TB and 8TB SSD's every 6/12 months make a dent in profit?
> 
> I'd assume xPoint would be ideal for this, but it's cheaper to burn out NAND drives before committing to the big xpoint drives?
> 
> Again just questions from a noob.


First, I suggest to wait for pools. Solo farming is a huge gamble with the current difficulty. Not worth the investment on HDDs (if you don't have them already), you're going to be disappointed. Solo farming made sense if you were there @ day 1.

Second, depending on how many plots you want to create and your SSD endurance (TBW), you may or may not kill it at all.

For example, my SSD cost $130 and I sacrificed roughly 1/4 of its health according to SMART. It won't die any time soon. Chances are I will replace it when PCIe 5.0/DDR5/5nm arrive and it will still be usable.

My current profit is several times higher than the entire PC cost (let alone the SSD cost!) and I still use the PC for daily tasks. No harm done.

It's Chinese whales that will probably burn through many SSDs to build their mega-farms. Small farmers (people like me, who only have 1 PC and built it long before the crypto craze kicked in) are not a problem.


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## R-T-B (May 17, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> excellent more electricity usage for nothing but short term greed. I do hope they figure out how to use RAM as crypto next, humans don't deserve this planet.


Chia is designed to address the PoW energy problem you are complaining about.  It is comparably quite green.

I still wish it offered encrypted decentralized cloud storage, like filecoin.  That was actually cool.  This...  is kinda useless by comparison, IMO.



jermando said:


> OK:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm curious how they came to those figures.  They link/cite what appears to be a user post on medium.com.  I know bitcoins environmental impact is often overplayed, but Is the banking system really that inefficient?


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## 95Viper (May 17, 2021)

How about everyone stays on topic.
And, not insult each other.
Keep it civil and discuss the topic, not each other.

Thank You.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I'm curious how they came to those figures.  They link what appears to be a post on medium.com.  Is the banking system really that inefficient?


Of course it is inefficient, since there are so many bank branches, offices etc. Those things consume electricity.

I don't know if you read financial news at all, but they plan to increase efficiency by abolishing cash (you know, the thing that drug lords/terrorists have been using long before BTC came out...) in favor of CBDCs and closing many retail banks.

I think money competition is a good thing overall and nobody should have a monopoly in issuing money. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is the thing that many people don't get. This monopoly is responsible for many wars.

Some food for thought:








						WTF Happened In 1971?
					

"I don't believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can't take it violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something that they can't stop." - F.A. Hayek 1984




					wtfhappenedin1971.com
				














IMHO, cryptos are a nice alternative to preserve your wealth (long-term it tends to go up, unlike fiat currencies).

If you want to stay in the middle class by 2030 and beyond, even a small exposure to cryptos wouldn't hurt. Fiat will just get devaluated even more from 2025 and onwards (CBDCs, UBI etc). Inflation is already over 4%. Be prepared and stay vigilant.


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## LFaWolf (May 17, 2021)

I could never understand coin mining. With this one where you have tens of drives all spinning and running (and seeing someone is eyeing some enterprise drives, the noisiest of all), how do you deal with the heat and noise??? The noise alone would drive me insane and the heat could possibly cook me alive!


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## xrror (May 17, 2021)

LFaWolf said:


> I could never understand coin mining. With this one where you have tens of drives all spinning and running (and seeing someone is eyeing some enterprise drives, the noisiest of all), how do you deal with the heat and noise??? The noise alone would drive me insane and the heat could possibly cook me alive!


Bulk (spinning) storage is kinda... already a solved problem? You wouldn't have all those storage racks in the room with you for the exact reasons you state. If you're running enough drives to compete with BackBlaze then you're probably not the hobby miner either 

This all assuming that spinning storage is even... desirable for this? All the panic I see about Chia is causing shortage on SSD drives. I'm guessing it's more profitable to run the Chia algorithm on fast I/O??? else why bother with SSD when if all you need is storage HDD's absolutely dominate there cost-wise.

Again as a noob I don't know - but to directly address your question noise and heat might not be nearly as much a problem if there are NO mechanical drives involved!


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> OK:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Citations are required for such stats. Those numbers are NOT trustworthy unless backed by a reliable source that can be verified. Otherwise it's just set of pretty graphs that mean nothing..


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Citations are required for such stats. Those numbers are NOT trustworthy unless backed by a reliable source that can be verified. Otherwise it's just set of pretty graphs that mean nothing..


I will ask one last time: do you need a source to know that Chia consumes far less electricity than BTC (ASICs) & ETH (GPUs)?

Hopefully I will get an answer this time...


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## user112 (May 17, 2021)

personally I think buying coins directly is always better than mining. I have no doubt high frequency trading software on a coin exchange would put any miners profit to shame with less risk and lower upfront investment. the only thing stopping that from being more of a thing is the lack of people with both investor knowledge and programming skill. also the only advantage to SSDs is that it takes less time to do the initial ploting of an entire drive. but I don't think saving a days in the setup process is enough of a lead to really beat cheaper higher capacity storage that has atleast 2x the durability.plus if NVME was actually a requirement you'd need fiber internet with a multi-gigabit connection to mine chia. though if your building a farm LTO tapes are far better than HDDs.


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> I will ask one last time: do you need a source to know that Chia consumes far less electricity than BTC (ASICs) & ETH (GPUs)?
> 
> Hopefully I will get an answer this time...


Yes. HDD's/SSD's use power and CPU's use power to run the mining algorithm. Verifiable stats are required here. However, your graphs list cryptocoin in general and that is the context which is in question.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

user112 said:


> personally I think buying coins directly is always better than mining. I have no doubt high frequency trading software on a coin exchange would put any miners profit to shame with less risk and lower upfront investment. the only thing stopping that from being more of a thing is the lack of people with both investor knowledge and programming skill. also the only advantage to SSDs is that it takes less time to do the initial ploting of an entire drive. but I don't think saving a days in the setup process is enough of a lead to really beat cheaper higher capacity storage that has atleast 2x the durability.plus if NVME was actually a requirement you'd need fiber internet with a multi-gigabit connection to mine chia. though if your building a farm LTO tapes are far better than HDDs.


NVMe is related to FTTH? How so? I think you confuse plotting bandwidth (high) with internet p2p bandwidth (low).

Also, tapes really are a bad idea... you don't need lots of bandwidth for farming, but you need fast seek times to provide the hash in a timely manner and no tape is going to provide that.



lexluthermiester said:


> Yes. HDD's/SSD's use power and CPU's use power to run the mining algorithm. Verifiable stats are required here. However, your graphs list cryptocoin in general and that is the context which is in question.


Alright. I hope you'll switch to... Nintendo Switch to consume less power while gaming. Not even PS4/XB1.

If you don't do so (like Nintendo fanatics say), I'll consider your "ecological" stance hypocritical to say the least. Double standards at its finest.

Or even better: let's ban gaming altogether to save the planet. Less hypocrisy that way, since gaming is a waste of time and produces nothing. Now I'm waiting for you guys to crucify me.

ps: You still didn't answer my question if Chia consumes less electricity vs BTC/ETH. Nice cop-out!


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> Alright. I hope you'll switch to... Nintendo Switch to consume less power while gaming. Not even PS4/XB1.
> 
> If you don't do so (like Nintendo fanatics say), I'll consider your "ecological" stance hypocritical to say the least. Double standards at its finest.
> 
> Or even better: let's ban gaming altogether to save the planet. Less hypocrisy that way, since gaming is a waste of time and produces nothing. Now I'm waiting for you guys to crucify me.


Yes, that it's, respond with an attack instead of either providing a citation to your graphs or stating that they might be total bunk..


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yes, that it's, respond with an attack instead of either providing a citation to your graphs or stating that they might be total bunk..


Trust the FED then. They will surely tell you that cryptos consume more electricity than the global banking system.

When are we going to ban video games for the sake of the planet? Or is human entertainment more important than saving the planet?

And while we're at it, let's also ban cars (even more CO2) and force everyone to take public transportation. USA would love that, don't you think?


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> Trust the FED then.


Angry much?


jermando said:


> They will surely tell you that cryptos consume more electricity than the global banking system.


The global banking system is an integral part of the world economy and essential for everyday life. Crytocoin is NOT.


jermando said:


> When are we going to ban video games for the sake of the planet?  Or is human entertainment more important than saving the planet?


Gaming isn't and never has impacted the environment like crypto is.


jermando said:


> And while we're at it, let's also ban cars (even more CO2) and force everyone to take public transportation. USA would love that, don't you think?


So what you are effectively saying is that your previous post with the pretty graphs are in fact total nonsense. Just a repost of a twitter crap post, yes?


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

You're projecting and you have tons of double standards, as you already said. You're being disingenuous.

I'm not angry at all, since I bought GPUs at rock bottom prices (before the mining craze), unlike many of you (who are totally mad about cryptos and GPU price gouging!). Sorry, but it's the truth. Admit it.


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## 64K (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> OK:



Those comparisons don't make sense really.

You can't compare gold to bitcoins because gold has considerable uses in manufacturing. It's also used in making jewelry that appeals to people naturally and always has throughout history.

You can't compare bitcoins to the Banking System unless you can offer some evidence of what percentage of people are using the Banking System compared to what percentage of people are Bitcoin Miners.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

64K said:


> Those comparisons don't make sense really.
> 
> You can't compare gold to bitcoins because gold has considerable uses in manufacturing. It's also used in making jewelry that appeals to people naturally and always has throughout history.
> 
> You can't compare bitcoins to the Banking System unless you can offer some evidence of what percentage of people are using the Banking System as compared to what percentage of people are Bitcoin Miners.


Human vanity (jewelry) is more important than saving the planet?

Many double standards, I see...

I'm pretty sure women can live just fine with no jewerly at all (it's not essential for life). No?


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> You're projecting and you have tons of double standards, as you already said. You're being disingenuous.


Ah, another attack. This proves you know you're wrong.



jermando said:


> I'm not angry at all, since I bought GPUs at rock bottom prices (before the mining craze), unlike many of you (who are totally mad about cryptos and GPU price gouging!). Sorry, but it's the truth. Admit it.





jermando said:


> Human vanity (jewelry) is more important than saving the planet?
> 
> Many double standards, I see...
> 
> I'm pretty sure women can live just fine with no jewerly at all (it's not essential for life). No?


So that makes you better than everyone else?

Cryptocoin mining is a VERY energy intensive activity regardless of the type of mining you engage in. This is fact, provable fact. Your arguements that are specifically aimed at shifting focus, blame and accountability are meritless as they are out of scope of the topic of discussion and lacking context for comparison.


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

You're projecting, Lex.

Just tell me: how many people on this forum are angry about cryptos due to GPU prices?

Hint: I'm not one of them. So why should I be angry? I know when it's the right time to buy.


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> You're projecting, Lex.


Yes, that's got to be it...


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

I'm not the one who constantly whines about GPU prices. There are tons of threads about it!

Rings any bells?

It's very evident on this forum who is angry and who isn't.


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## 64K (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> I'm pretty sure women can live just fine with no jewerly at all (it's not essential for life). No?



Neither is Chia. It is the greenest of the bitcoins to mine though. You can even mine Chia from on top of your head. All you have to do is shave all of your hair off and plant some seeds:


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## Deleted member 193792 (May 17, 2021)

Neither is the dollar. We can just become hunter gatherers again.

Maybe if you guys understand what digital transformation entails, then you'll understand the role of cryptos in the new age that is coming...

Just don't say in 2030 that nobody warned you. At least I tried.


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## lexluthermiester (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> I'm not the one who constantly whines about GPU prices. There are tons of threads about it!
> 
> Rings any bells?
> 
> It's very evident on this forum who is angry and who isn't.


And the personal jabs continue. Are you going to offer any merit to your earlier suggestions or are you going to keep throwing personal comments?


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> Maybe if you guys understand what digital transformation entails, then you'll understand the role of cryptos in the new age that is coming


try not to be vague and ELI5 us computer geeks here. Some of us are too stupid to understand what you're flame-baiting about.


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## silentbogo (May 17, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> excellent more electricity usage for nothing but short term greed. I do hope they figure out how to use RAM as crypto next, humans don't deserve this planet.


Well, let's just trade paychecks (I'm making around $400-500/mo at my primary workplace), and well see how you sing afterwards. Most of my living comes from various side-hustles, otherwise you'll end up living on a railroad station. Crypto is just one of the things that helps me to make your ends meet. I'm sure most small-time miners like me will share similar stories.
Also, if we are so wasteful on resources, let's check your electric bill. I'm always under 300kWh even with mining and plotting rigs, plus 3 work servers. Before it was around 100-120kWh. How much power do you use? If anything, getting a 24U rack and a bunch of equipment thought me well how not to be wasteful and manage my power input and heat output(especially with summer on the way). News outlets tend to overblow things wa-a-ay out of proportion, and various research organizations and institutions nowadays really like to follow by skewing or presenting numbers in equally-sensationalistic way, and never takes into account where that power comes from, when is it used, and how is it used. Knowing that electrical grids around the world haven't really been updated in the past decade that much, we'd have power spikes and outages all around the globe if it was as bad as mass media says.


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## sepheronx (May 17, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> Well, let's just trade paychecks (I'm making around $400-500/mo at my primary workplace), and well see how you sing afterwards. Most of my living comes from various side-hustles, otherwise *you'll end up living on a railroad station*. Crypto is just one of the things that helps me to make your ends meet. I'm sure most small-time miners like me will share similar stories.
> Also, if we are so wasteful on resources, let's check your electric bill. I'm always under 300kWh even with mining and plotting rigs, plus 3 work servers. Before it was around 100-120kWh. How much power do you use? If anything, getting a 24U rack and a bunch of equipment thought me well how not to be wasteful and manage my power input and heat output(especially with summer on the way). News outlets tend to overblow things wa-a-ay out of proportion, and various research organizations and institutions nowadays really like to follow by skewing or presenting numbers in equally-sensationalistic way, and never takes into account where that power comes from, when is it used, and how is it used. Knowing that electrical grids around the world haven't really been updated in the past decade that much, we'd have power spikes and outages all around the globe if it was as bad as mass media says.



I guess the upside to that is you will never miss the train.

But yes, I am surprised how little power you use.  I use roughly 800KW/h per month.  And my consumption is a lot less than someone like my friend who runs a heater, a fan and has his window open during dead of winter.  Has his TV running and playing games in another room.  And he doesn't mine.

Being able to have another set of finances helping you is a great thing, and I presume it is very beneficial for yourself as the value of crypto is still very large compared to your currency.


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## R-T-B (May 17, 2021)

jermando said:


> Of course it is inefficient, since there are so many bank branches, offices etc. Those things consume electricity.


I see.  I was thinking more in terms of the payment network, like what the computer systems of ACH or SWIFT draw.  Pretty sure we don't measure the draw of the bitcoin ATMs (not that it'd be much but still, fair is fair).  I don't see any need to consider branch offices when that's more a retail presence than a necessity.


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## Deleted member 202104 (May 17, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> I'm always under 300kWh even with mining and plotting rigs, plus 3 work servers. Before it was around 100-120kWh. How much power do you use?



Is that per month?  A 350w draw 24/7 is 252 kWh every thirty days. ((.35x24)x30)


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## silentbogo (May 17, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> Is that per month? A 350w draw 24/7 is 252 kWh every thirty days. ((.35x24)x30)


Yes. Only you've miscalculated power draw "a little". You never run cards at stock.
Right now I have 2x3060 at 62% PL. Both on average draw ~100W.
It's in my main rig, so the only real CPU usage I get, is from web-browsing and work related stuff (mining made me more productive, so no games for the past few months except RE:Village demo). Typical power draw with Chia plotting and Nicehash is below 35W after some tweaking, and maybe 45W peak. The whole rig stays comfortably under 250W.
My chia farming rig is i3-4130T(35W) rig with 2 HDDs and 4 more on the way, barely breaks a sweat (doesn't do much yet, though... at least not until pooling arrives or I get 35-40TB of plots). Servers are all low-power(under 45W), except one Supermicro that runs a regular E3-1240v2(and unfortunately it was off the rack for most of this month), but 99% of the time they are idle anyways. 
Mail server runs on a Celeron J4005(~10W). 
My normal usage was around 100-120kWh per month with 2-3 hours of gaming every day, so I'm sure my personal usage(ligts, fridge, water heater) is way below 100kWh. New appliances do miracles.
Here's a snap of my electrical bill, which I got a few days ago (cut and redacted for obvious reasons):


Spoiler







The highest ever was 359kWh, but only because I had a 5xP104-100 farm for a couple of weeks (full rework and maintenance, while the customer was on vacation).


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## Papahyooie (May 17, 2021)

An average home crypto mining rig consumes less energy than the light bulbs in a bank branch, much less the air conditioners, networking, gas to drive there for work, the ATMs, security, etc etc etc etc. Stop with the self righteousness lol.


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## Deleted member 202104 (May 17, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> Yes. Only you've miscalculated power draw "a little". You never run cards at stock.
> Right now I have 2x3060 at 62% PL. Both on average draw ~100W.
> It's in my main rig, so the only real CPU usage I get, is from web-browsing and work related stuff (mining made me more productive, so no games for the past few months except RE:Village demo). Typical power draw with Chia plotting and Nicehash is below 35W after some tweaking, and maybe 45W peak. The whole rig stays comfortably under 250W.
> My chia farming rig is i3-4130T(35W) rig with 2 HDDs and 4 more on the way, barely breaks a sweat (doesn't do much yet, though... at least not until pooling arrives or I get 35-40TB of plots). Servers are all low-power(under 45W), except one Supermicro that runs a regular E3-1240v2(and unfortunately it was off the rack for most of this month), but 99% of the time they are idle anyways.
> ...



That's some very efficient power consumption.

I apologize, I listed the 350w draw only as an example as that's what I was consuming running two PCs for World Community Grid (3900x & 3950x, both on reduced PPT).  When running Folding @ Home on GPUs, I always ran them at a 50-56% power limit as the results weren't that much different in relation to power usage.

I have a much higher personal usage - here's a clip from my latest statement.





The usage includes the ~250 kWh from running WCG, but even subtracting that still leaves it at 350 kWh/month. The Net Generation is from solar.  I've retired from WCG/Folding so I'm reducing usage there.


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## silentbogo (May 17, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> That's some very efficient power consumption.


That's not as much about efficiency, but for thermals and longevity. At that PL I can get about 45-46MH/s easily, while GPU stays below 50C and fans running at 50-60%. 
I still want to play on those cards someday ))))

And with servers - it's about the capacity of my UPS. Our power company started to mess with transformer stations again, so I need it to run at least mail and accounting for 2+h in case of power outage.
Still have sweaty palms when I recall last encounter with a lengthy power outage: my FTP server(i3-6100 w/ 2x4TB RAID1) had to run for 4+ hours off an APC RS1000. Good thing I've upgraded to 9Ah cells just a month prior, and it survived along with networking equipment.
Maybe someday I'll get a 3000 RM XL, so I won't have to worry that much.


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## ShiBDiB (May 18, 2021)

Jesus this thread has gone off the rails... No one in this section of the forum cares about power consumption outside of how it effects their mining profits so can we drop that topic already?

As for Chia, unless you can dedicate 100TB+ of space to farm with than it's a hard avoid until pools come out. And then it's only a maybe if you have drives not doing anything anyway kind of thing.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

I think the fact is we need to recognize TPU as a community of diverse interests.

Miners don't go out of their way to troll the gaming sections, so I would ask gamers to return the favor.

Like politics, I feel discussion of the good/bad traits of crypto should be banned out of moral consistency.

Likewise "what coin to mine/invest in, market value speculation, etc" should likewise be restricted or banned.  We aren't a economic investments forum.  Keep the discussion technical.  Afterall this is "Tech"powerup.  How to mine and the like are what we should be serving.  The "tech" part.  Not the "how to make money" part.

I say this knowing full well I have been guilty of much of the above over the years.  I just feel a policy like this would help the obvious war we have going here going on in the forums.


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## lexluthermiester (May 18, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> An average home crypto mining rig consumes less energy than the light bulbs in a bank branch, much less the air conditioners, networking, gas to drive there for work, the ATMs, security, etc etc etc etc. Stop with the self righteousness lol.


That's 1 home VS 1 bank branch. Let's see the numbers for 10 homes and see if that still pans out. That of course is setting aside the need for bank branches as a part of life. Life got along just fine before cryptocoin...


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## Papahyooie (May 18, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's 1 home VS 1 bank branch. Let's see the numbers for 10 homes and see if that still pans out. That of course is setting aside the need for bank branches as a part of life. Life got along just fine before cryptocoin...


How many homes do you think it will take to rival one if the many skyscrapers that I can see from standing in one spot, that are bank regional headquarters and such? How will that pan out? I would be willing to bet an entire Chinese farm wouldn't even rival that. 

Banks aren't needed. That's kind of the whole point of crypto. And eventually you'll be left behind yelling at clouds too.


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## lexluthermiester (May 18, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> How many homes do you think it will take to rival one if the many skyscrapers that I can see from standing in one spot, that are bank regional headquarters and such? How will that pan out? I would be willing to bet an entire Chinese farm wouldn't even rival that.
> 
> Banks aren't needed. That's kind of the whole point of crypto. And eventually you'll be left behind yelling at clouds too.


Ah, we've wondered off into opinionland. Context is important.


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## Papahyooie (May 18, 2021)

The point stands that the financial system we have massively outweighs crypto from an energy consumption and pollution generation standpoint. And crypto has the ability to completely replace the entire thing. So a "green" argument against crypto is misguided at best.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

LFaWolf said:


> The noise alone would drive me insane and the heat could possibly cook me alive!


You think gpus are better?  Drives are nothing heat wise.


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## 64K (May 18, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> Banks aren't needed. That's kind of the whole point of crypto. And eventually you'll be left behind yelling at clouds too.



Banks are needed. What coin exchange would a business or a home buyer or a car buyer go to to borrow bitcoins for such? What coin exchange will issue credit cards/ debit cards?

If all of these services and more were provided by coin exchanges then coin exchanges would become banks and it would be the same thing all over again. Banks will always be needed.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Citations are required for such stats. Those numbers are NOT trustworthy unless backed by a reliable source that can be verified. Otherwise it's just set of pretty graphs that mean nothing..


There is a source in the first image.  I typed it out for other users:









						PoW is Efficient
					

Foreword




					danhedl.medium.com
				






64K said:


> Banks are needed. What coin exchange would a business or a home buyer or a car buyer go to to borrow bitcoins for such? What coin exchange will issue credit cards/ debit cards?


There are actually fully automated coins designed around decentralized lending.

I have not used them, but am fully aware they exist.  You don't even need the exchange (though coinbase does issue a card, as do several other exchanges).


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## Papahyooie (May 18, 2021)

64K said:


> Banks are needed. What coin exchange would a business or a home buyer or a car buyer go to to borrow bitcoins for such? What coin exchange will issue credit cards/ debit cards?
> 
> If all of these services and more were provided by coin exchanges then coin exchanges would become banks and it would be the same thing all over again. Banks will always be needed.


Any exchange, or any holder of crypto could provide such services. As for credit/debit cards I'd rather see them go away completely, as they are completely unneeded, and are further e-waste. You can literally make a crypto transaction with your key written on your hand, and the vendor's computer. Nothing more needed. 

Such crypto holders that might provide loans and such would be analogous to banks in that manner, sure. The actual payment system is distributed though. That's kind of what crypto is lol...


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

64K said:


> Banks will always be needed.


I'm doubtful longterm of this claim.

The decentralized lending coin I was talking about is called compound.


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## Hardcore Games (May 18, 2021)

Over in China I forum I follow is really freaked out over the lack of coins even with lots of storage.


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## Hemmingstamp (May 18, 2021)

jermando said:


> Maybe if you guys understand what digital transformation entails, then you'll understand the role of cryptos in the new age that is coming...
> 
> Just don't say in 2030 that nobody warned you. At least I tried.


I've been keeping tabs on it, but it's up to others to either embrace it or bury their heads in the sand. Either way a new era is coming although many may not like it.


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## 64K (May 18, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I'm doubtful longterm of this claim.
> 
> The decentralized lending coin I was talking about is called compound.



My point is that if coin exchanges took over all of the functions of banking then coin exchanges would become the banks. There's no escaping it. People need to take out loans and they need credit cards for protection on purchases if nothing else.


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## ShiBDiB (May 18, 2021)

Hardcore Games said:


> Over in China I forum I follow is really freaked out over the lack of coins even with lots of storage.



The Chia github is also a shitstorm of complaints about coin distribution right now (and is starting to get some traction on the crypto news websites). Chia isn't looking too hot


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

64K said:


> My point is that if coin exchanges took over all of the functions of banking then coin exchanges would become the banks.


Compound is not a coin exchange.


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## 64K (May 18, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Compound is not a coin exchange.



In any case, however you name it, banks in some form will always be needed.


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## Papahyooie (May 18, 2021)

64K said:


> My point is that if coin exchanges took over all of the functions of banking then coin exchanges would become the banks. There's no escaping it. People need to take out loans and they need credit cards for protection on purchases if nothing else.


You need to research how all this works more tbh. Such services can and are built on top of the payment networks. The payment networks remain distributed though. These services do not define a bank. They are services that can and are provided by banks, but that is not the function of a bank.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

64K said:


> In any case, however you name it, banks in some form will always be needed.


I disagree, but ok.


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## ShiBDiB (May 18, 2021)

Seriously, can we shut up about non Chia shit in this thread.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> Seriously, can we shut up about non Chia shit in this thread.


I wish, but think the ship has sailed.


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## xrror (May 18, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I wish, but think the ship has sailed.


More like sank. blub blub.

I never did find out why fast I/O was important either


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## lexluthermiester (May 18, 2021)

The flaw(severe) in the suggestion that cryptocoin is comparable on some level to or would somehow be a valid replacement for the world's current financial system is beyond lacking. It is not and would not. Therefore comparing the two in an attempt to validate one as being "less green" than the other is so deeply flawed as to imply that the argument is an attempt at deliberate deception. Anyone who would make or believe such a notion is silly unto themselves and a fool everyone around them...


64K said:


> Banks will always be needed.





R-T-B said:


> I'm doubtful longterm of this claim.


I'm not. It's more or less a provable fact.



ShiBDiB said:


> Chia isn't looking too hot


Good.


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## 80251 (May 18, 2021)

jermando said:


> Nice FUD attempt. You're no better than Medieval Church religious zealots claiming that _"You'll rot in hell, infidel!"_ if you don't do what the cult dictates.
> 
> Chia isn't even anonymous to begin and yet, it funds... terrorism? How so? Same for BTC/ETH. You don't even know which cryptos provide true anonymity.
> 
> ...


FUD eh?
https://www.elliptic.co/blog/bitcoin-money-laundering


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## 95Viper (May 18, 2021)

Seeing that "how much space do I need to Chia be profitable?" was the topic and the OP has not posted since the first post.
And, it has gotten way off topic... even, after warnings.
Thread is closed...


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