# Support TechPowerUp on Patreon, Unlock New Features



## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

People have often asked how to thank us through donations, to show their appreciation for our PC enthusiast content, free software and databases, but we could never find a good mechanism for that. Today we're officially launching our Patreon page, which gives you an easy method to financially support us in a simple way, and get some nifty site-wide features as our own way of saying thank you.


Over the past weeks I've worked on site engine changes to include additional benefits with Patreon membership, so you can actually enjoy tangible returns for your contribution. If you've never heard of Patreon before, it's a platform that lets creators receive voluntary payments for their work directly from the audience — a virtual tip jar. This does not mean TPU is in financial trouble, quite the opposite, we're doing better than ever, and our readership keeps growing — we're not going away. Some forum members have already discovered our Patreon campaign in the test phase and have contributed to it, and we greatly appreciate all the feedback they provided in the past few months that has helped shape this platform.

You can help us do what we do best, by supporting TechPowerUp on Patreon.

I've created three pledge levels that each unlock incremental features, so you may choose according to your financial situation. As always, we appreciate your time and consideration here, even if you are not able to sign up at this time.



 


Bronze: For as little as $4 a month, the entry-level tier, all ads on TechPowerUp are removed, including banners and sponsored content. You also receive a shiny new "Supporter" badge for our forums, and can access the otherwise hidden Patron-only forum where you're free to discuss anything.
Silver: Take it up a notch for $7 per month. In addition to all the features of the "Bronze" tier, you get the "single page view" feature in our reviews and articles. You can now read them seamlessly, by simply scrolling down, no more clicking "next page." We also let you pick a custom user title on TechPowerUp Forums.
Gold: This $9 per month tier brings with it early access to most of our unpublished reviews. Read coverage of products to help make your purchase decisions before others! You also get all the features of the "Bronze" and "Silver" tier.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Dammeron (Jan 29, 2020)

Wouldn't "gold" variant get in the way of NDAs?


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## librin.so.1 (Jan 29, 2020)

I wonder how Gold tier's unpublished review thing works, seeing how most reviews are posted as soon as the NDA expires. i.e. ain't this gonna break some NDAs? Unless the reviews get otherwise delayed with a kind of review exclusivity period for Gold-tier members, but that has its own problems.
:big_th0hk:


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

Dammeron said:


> Wouldn't "gold" variant get in the way of NDAs?





Vinska said:


> I wonder how Gold tier's unpublished review thing works, seeing how most reviews are posted as soon as the NDA expires. i.e. ain't this gonna break some NDAs? Unless the reviews get otherwise delayed with a kind of review exclusivity period for Gold-tier members, but that has its own problems.
> :big_th0hk:


Obviously we won't break the NDA for reviews, there's still a lot of reviews that are finished and waiting to be posted, check out the new box on the frontpage.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 29, 2020)

I think there's some fundamental things that need to be addressed as far as news reporting before one decides to support the site. 

Im talking about clickbait and 'sensationalist' articles and of course who could forget the hit peice on GamerNexus earlier in the year... 

Do you know how badly that knocked TPUs reputation? 

It's not the first time that this certain individual has been called out about his writing. He did it with an MSI article when there was a rumor floating around that they were locking off older boards from being compatible with the newer ryzen series. These are just two examples off the top of my head but I'm sure there are a few more.... 

TPU has got to evolve and bring the standards of writing back up. Some reviews occasionally feel pretty lazy and uninspiring. I understand that often the reviewers might not have have all the time in the world to pour into the reviews but sometimes going above and beyond that really puts the quality out there. 

There's a lot TPU could learn from GN rather than write articles accusing people of being paid shills. 

GN hasn't struggled for backers on patreon the same way that TPU has since they started up their patreon page. 

Make TPU Great Again


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## R-T-B (Jan 29, 2020)

I feel the above but I also still am a gold member.  I feel like if if you want to have your words carry some weight here, you should chip in.

That being said I totally agree with the above but I also see moment where bta is trying to do better.  If he keeps that up, it's all just a learning experience as far as I am concerned.

I'm more upset about the choice of software key "partners" frankly.



FreedomEclipse said:


> Make TPU Great Again



That was my sig for a bit, but I got a bad vibe from it, lol


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## SetiroN (Jan 29, 2020)

I'd gladly participate if you didn't spam the news section weekly with grey markey key store "promotions".


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

SetiroN said:


> I'd gladly participate if you didn't spam the news section weekly with grey markey key store "promotions".


We created the first tier for you: "all ads on TechPowerUp are removed, including banners and sponsored content", you can now put your money where your mouth is


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## Gungar (Jan 29, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> I think there's some fundamental things that need to be addressed as far as news reporting before one decides to support the site.
> 
> Im talking about clickbait and 'sensationalist' articles and of course who could forget the hit peice on GamerNexus earlier in the year...
> 
> ...



The problem of TPU is that Wizzard is what makes it a good website, if he retires it's over for TPU. And yes, too much clickbait articles this past years.


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## notb (Jan 29, 2020)

Gungar said:


> The problem of TPU is that Wizzard is what makes it a good website, if he retires it's over for TPU. And yes, too much clickbait articles this past years.


Clickbait, dodgy keys, mistakes, flood of HR/PR news, lack of technical articles.
At least the cryptocurrency trend died. That was sad as well.

As for reviews: more and more accessories (dozens similar RGB mice lately), but less things TPU did so well earlier (like cases).

And on the forum front (also part of experience): very aggressive, subjective moderating, removing posts without notice. Lately I got points because a mod didn't understand my comment. Like, seriously, WTF?


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## Space Lynx (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> We created the first tier for you: "all ads on TechPowerUp are removed, including banners and sponsored content"



I really think this is the most technically well done forum on the internet, it's just a shame to me you have to resort to this. Does TPU not generate enough traffic to encourage bigger advertisers? Perhaps paid promotions like LinusTechTips does, but we could just put in the review its a paid review, etc. I feel like a lot of people have creative ideas to increase growth, and TPU already has the foundation, it just needs that push.

edit: I'm referring to the cheap buy windows license type adverts, not the Patreon. Patreon is great idea.


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> paid review


we're not influencers, we actually test the stuff we review, and our readers trust in that.


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## JAB Creations (Jan 29, 2020)

Add a like/dislike feature for news posts or maybe a 1-5 star rating. I'm finally getting to the point where I'll be able to contribute financially later on this year so make sure that Patreon button is visible please!


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## lZKoce (Jan 29, 2020)

It's perfectly normal evolution of the site as far as I am concerned. It took quite a while to try to monetize it properly actually. When you put in so much time, effort and equipment something has to trickle back. I am not going to chip in though. It is by far the only tech forum I am active at, but I am too small to contribute something super meaningful to identify with the "cause". Now there will be private-closed discussions for the paid members, but that's to be expected.


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## dj-electric (Jan 29, 2020)

This is a loaded one...
uhmmm...

I really hope TPU would listen to its community, and while "the money" doesn't come from it, this is a core that is a pillar to this site, i feel.
W1zz is a very technically talented individual, and he is the main reason i like opening TPU a bunch of times a day, but other aspects of the website feel alien and changed for me since what they were just a few years ago.

Forum moderation changes is a big part of it - many of us "gave up" on being more active due to some unfortunate decisions from staff.
While i never got punished, i see many other users who do, over stuff they shouldn't.

*With reviews *- I have no idea why the pipe is so damn long from when a review is written to the moment its published. I know for a fact that some reviews in recent years waited *months* to be published. Why? That's a dis-service to both the community and reviewers. There are a bunch of talented individuals here.

We already have some review aspects stuck in 2007 with how products are tested and how results are being produced. Its 2020 and we don't have noise regulated case and cooler testing, we don't have min 1\0.1% lows and deeper frametime analysis of GPUs, we don't even have in-depth deep-dives into driver features and important tweaking tools. Not anymore.

In front page - The waves of meme PR news, regarding stuff that's pretty far away from common interest. I know people bash mr news editor, and 2019 would definitely be a year to learn from, but i know he can produce great content, he clearly has the technical capability of doing so. We're all human, we all can slip at times. 2020 is a year to improve.

I'd love to support TPU financially when some of those crucial issues will be addressed.


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## R-T-B (Jan 29, 2020)

notb said:


> At least the cryptocurrency trend died. That was sad as well.



I just didn't have the time to finish the articles with my new job.  W1zzard probably would've loved more.



W1zzard said:


> we're not influencers, we actually test the stuff we review, and our readers trust in that.



Yeah.  I really don't think we want to erode our reputation with ads disguised as reviews, even if we admit it.


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## Naito (Jan 29, 2020)

I think TPU needs to reinforce it's core draw card -  reviews of 'big ticket items'. Reviews of mice, keyboards, headphones and the occasional fan are a great supplement and gap filler, but let's face it, they're a dime a dozen and with the saturation in the market and the fact everyone has a difference taste, they're not going to get the reader count. During the long wait between GPU and CPU launches (and their subsequent brilliant reviews), I feel TPU needs to focus more on case, cooler and power supply reviews as these are components most will generally keep for 3 or more builds. For example, the level of technical detail in PSU reviews is excellent and greatly appreciated, with ripple tests, load regulation, temperatures and efficiency. Perhaps this Patreon expansion can help make this happen?


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

lZKoce said:


> I am not going to chip in though. [..] but I am too small to contribute something super meaningful to identify with the "cause"


and that's perfectly fine. This site is made for you, not for a small elite, don't worry


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## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

You could make a Kickstarter for several goals too. For example:

- $500: Interactive charts like the ones at computerbase.
- $1000: Choosing sensible game graphic settings for GPU reviews.
- $2000: 0.1% lows charts in GPU reviews.
- $3000: Stop the clickbaiting and senseless rumors in the main site by firing btarunr.


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## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

@W1zzard Right now I can see open all of the "Patreon Early Access" reviews on the homepage even though I'm not a patron.


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## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> Does TPU not generate enough traffic to encourage bigger advertisers? Perhaps paid promotions like LinusTechTips does, but we could just put in the review its a paid review, etc.


In my opinion paid reviews are always a bad idea if a website has a reputation for being trustworthy and objective. The moment I see a paid review (text, video, whatever), I immediately consider it worthless. I also don't trust any articles or videos that may be sponsored by Company X, even if they are not directly related to the subject matter, like for example "Let's build a gaming PC. This video is sponsored by be quiet!." And then the case, PSU, CPU cooler and case fans are all be quiet! ones. That isn't a "let us help you build a well balanced gaming PC (for a certain budget)" video; this is "let me advertise these components to you" video.

The way I see it, services like Patreon actually help reviewers who want to be objective to remain that way. When one has independent funding, one is much less reliant on the benevolence of hardware manufacturers. It is what allows Gamers Nexus to still review hardware if they are unhappy with how a manufacturer is handling NDAs or cannot take criticism and blacklist them, etc. "You don't want to provide a sample for review because you are butthurt over something? No problemo, we are going to purchase it with our own money, and do whatever we want."


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

Rahnak said:


> @W1zzard Right now I can see open all of the "Patreon Early Access" reviews on the homepage even though I'm not a patron.


Correct, working as intended



Imouto said:


> Interactive charts like the ones at computerbase


so people can no longer link to them? when i look at social media / other forums, all i see is our charts



Imouto said:


> Choosing sensible game graphic settings for GPU reviews.


huh? first time i hear about that, please make another thread to further discuss it



Imouto said:


> 0.1% lows charts in GPU reviews.


Sure, if I bring down the number of games to 5, at 2 resolutions, with 3 other cards compared.. and we'll be like everybody else.
27 comparison cards x 21 games x 4 resolutions = 2268 test runs currently



Imouto said:


> firing btarunr


send me your resume and some sample posts


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## Dave65 (Jan 29, 2020)

I admit my first website I visit in the morning is TPU. But some of the articles are pure click bate-ish, and the hit piece on Gamers Nexus really put a damper on my feeling for this site. 
It has the makings to be great and would love to see it expand but for me, TPU has to re-prove itself a bit before I would consider becoming a patreon member.


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## Frick (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> In my opinion paid reviews are always a bad idea if a website has a reputation for being trustworthy and objective. The moment I see a paid review (text, video, whatever), I immediately consider it worthless. I also don't trust any articles or videos that may be sponsored by Company X, even if they are not directly related to the subject matter, like for example "Let's build a gaming PC. This video is sponsored by be quiet!." And then the case, PSU, CPU cooler and case fans are all be quiet! ones. That isn't a "let us help you build a well balanced gaming PC (for a certain budget)" video; this is "let me advertise these components to you" video.



I'd be fine with sponsored content if the content is good. Like a storage deep dive sponsored by Seagate and there are like stuff from a really technical perspective. Why is this drive and this kind of drive different, and how? I mean if there has to be ads they might as well teach me something.

And it's way less clickbaity than it was some years ago. Also Clickbaits and reddit conspiracies are just signs of the times. There are no bastions of light, we all have to eat. Even bta.

The moderation stuff people talk about are complete unknowns to me, and that is coming from someone who recieved a ban with no end date set.


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## Blitzr (Jan 29, 2020)

Great idea TPU. Your site and content is great and while there's obviously going to be ads and sponsored content (tpu staff needs to eat like the rest of you), the toxic community centered around passive aggressiveness and drama is what's holding tpu back. I wish there was a free trial so I could see how the Patreon sponsored threads look like toxicity wise.
There's times in the past where I've needed feedback on my builds and went to this site only to see similar type of forum questions turn into personal attacks. I hope this Patreon weeds out the older, disgruntled accounts.


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## r.h.p (Jan 29, 2020)

good idea TPU , ive always found ur web site the best to get up to date and informative information around.
also the forums I find stress free and people always willing to help and chat 

go TPU


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## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> so people can no longer link to them? when i look at social media / other forums, all i see is our charts



Ever heard of "share buttons"?



W1zzard said:


> huh? first time i hear about that, please make another thread to further discuss it



It is honestly useless to test a mid or low ranked GPU at ultra settings when there are plenty of settings that tank the performance and have nearly zero IQ returns. Then there is the hilarious fact that some cards don't run the game at ultra and that "zero" is as good as not testing it at all.



W1zzard said:


> Sure, if I bring down the number of games to 5, at 2 resolutions, with 3 other cards compared.. and we'll be like everybody else.
> 27 comparison cards x 21 games x 4 resolutions = 2268 tests, at 2 minutes per run = 4536 minutes = 75.6 hours



It is 3 resolutions and you could drop quite a few games. Even game specific articles don't have these numbers.

27 cards * 3 resolutions * 2 mins = 162 min = 2.7 hours



W1zzard said:


> send me your resume and some sample posts



Not my field. But you should consider it just looking at how many users are asking for just that.


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> Ever heard of "share buttons"?


Sure, but I'd say unrelated. How do you share a HTML DOM or Canvas on places that let you upload images only?



Imouto said:


> test a mid or low ranked GPU at ultra settings


But how can people compare graphics cards across the whole market then?



Imouto said:


> 27 cards * 3 resolutions * 2 mins = 162 min = 2.7 hours


correct, for each individual game



Blitzr said:


> I wish there was a free trial so I could see how the Patreon sponsored threads look like toxicity wise.


it's a completely separate subforum thats mostly empty atm, it'll be what patrons make of it


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

dj-electric said:


> This is a loaded one...
> uhmmm...
> 
> I really hope TPU would listen to its community, and while "the money" doesn't come from it, this is a core that is a pillar to this site, i feel.
> ...


See, that last line in your comment, right there, tells you exactly why things aren't changing. You now have a chance to financially support a rather small publication that is asking for contribution, but you say no, because a few things aren't up to your standards. How do you expect things to change? Maybe with your small contribution, they will earn enough so they can make the changes you want, but clearly, you're the unwilling party here, so the changes you want aren't likely to happen.



Naito said:


> I think TPU needs to reinforce it's core draw card -  reviews of 'big ticket items'. Reviews of mice, keyboards, headphones and the occasional fan are a great supplement and gap filler, but let's face it, they're a dime a dozen and with the saturation in the market and the fact everyone has a difference taste, they're not going to get the reader count. During the long wait between GPU and CPU launches (and their subsequent brilliant reviews), I feel TPU needs to focus more on case, cooler and power supply reviews as these are components most will generally keep for 3 or more builds. For example, the level of technical detail in PSU reviews is excellent and greatly appreciated, with ripple tests, load regulation, temperatures and efficiency. Perhaps this Patreon expansion can help make this happen?


To be able to do "big ticket items" as you put it, reviews of other things have to be done as well, since these companies are also likely to put up ads on the site, which pays for the "big ticket items". I guess you've never 1. worked as a tech journalist and 2. never had your own business?
It's not possible to only write about certain things and on top of that, the site would be too much of a niche publication, so they'd lose readers and when the numbers goes down, so does the advertising money. Also, not everyone here has the same interest, so a mix of content is good imho.



Imouto said:


> You could make a Kickstarter for several goals too. For example:
> 
> - $500: Interactive charts like the ones at computerbase.
> - $1000: Choosing sensible game graphic settings for GPU reviews.
> ...


$1 have you banned for life?
I mean seriously, clearly only your opinion count here, right? You have seven posts on the forums, so please...



Blitzr said:


> Great idea TPU. Your site and content is great and while there's obviously going to be ads and sponsored content (tpu staff needs to eat like the rest of you), the toxic community centered around passive aggressiveness and drama is what's holding tpu back. I wish there was a free trial so I could see how the Patreon sponsored threads look like toxicity wise.
> There's times in the past where I've needed feedback on my builds and went to this site only to see similar type of forum questions turn into personal attacks. I hope this Patreon weeds out the older, disgruntled accounts.


You  could pay $4 and see, it's not like you have to tie yourself up for life...


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## JAB Creations (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> You could make a Kickstarter for several goals too. For example:
> 
> - $500: Interactive charts like the ones at computerbase.
> - $1000: Choosing sensible game graphic settings for GPU reviews.
> ...



I think in general that is a great idea and also I laughed - I vaguely am aware of the rumors issue and will politely remain nuetral on that point.


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## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> See, that last line in your comment, right there, tells you exactly why things aren't changing. You now have a chance to financially support a rather small publication that is asking for contribution, but you say no, because a few things aren't up to your standards. How do you expect things to change? Maybe with your small contribution, they will earn enough so they can make the changes you want, but clearly, you're the unwilling party here, so the changes you want aren't likely to happen.


Actually both approaches seem valid to me. The contributions are small enough that they do not pose a financial risk to users. However, Patreon is strictly voluntary, and no one should feel ashamed if they are not a patron. It is perfectly reasonable for a user to have certain standards and expectations, before he/she commits to a donation or patronage. Especially since TPU is doing better than ever, by W1zzard's own admission.

EDIT: And no one should be passive-aggressively guilted into becoming a patron, which seems to me you are doing.


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## AlienIsGOD (Jan 29, 2020)

@W1zzard any plans to offer say a yearly option for the different levels? or just monthly?


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## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> Sure, but I'd say unrelated. How do you share a HTML DOM or Canvas on places that let you upload images only?



Share the images, keep the good stuff for the site. win/win.

I'd say the scripts you are currently using wouldn't be that hard to modify to do both. And it would save you bandwidth. win/win/win.



W1zzard said:


> But how can people compare graphics cards across the whole market then?



By cutting off at 60 FPS for each resolution? Every time you test a new GPU if it doesn't hit 60 FPS for a resolution please lower the settings to a lower tier of your choice removing most of the placebo settings. I don't really know why you bother testing a RX 570 at Ultra when no one would use them unless they are massive masochists.

You even did something similar with the Borderlands 3 article by choosing the "Ultra" preset instead of the "Badass" one that was a performance hog just for the sake of it. There are plenty of videos around doing an analysis of the different settings and most of them are inane for mid and low range GPUs.

I laughed real hard when the last review for the GTX 1650 Super Windforce came out and numbers for Control were well below acceptable at 1080p and directly insane for 1440p and 4K.

~7 FPS? Welp, that's useful and totally what I would do.



W1zzard said:


> correct, for each individual game



What about the game specific articles? Is it that much harder to get the 0.1% stats for them?



TheLostSwede said:


> $1 have you banned for life?
> I mean seriously, clearly only your opinion count here, right? You have seven posts on the forums, so please...



I'm going to be the better man here and just ignore you.


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## Soy (Jan 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I feel the above but I also still am a gold member.  I feel like if if you want to have your words carry some weight here, you should chip in.
> 
> That being said I totally agree with the above but I also see moment where bta is trying to do better.  If he keeps that up, it's all just a learning experience as far as I am concerned.
> 
> ...


I would like to support but refuse to do so as long as TPU continues to advertise the selling of keys not meant for resale.  It is illegal, not a grey market thing.  Those keys are not meant to be sold to the public.  My money will never be used to condone unethical behavior.


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

AlienIsGOD said:


> @W1zzard any plans to offer say a yearly option for the different levels? or just monthly?


Isn't monthly better because you can cancel any time?



Imouto said:


> Share the images


except dynamic charts are not images



Soy said:


> I would like to support but refuse to do so as long as TPU continues to advertise the selling of keys not meant for resale.  It is illegal, not a grey market thing.  Those keys are not meant to be sold to the public.  My money will never be used to condone unethical behavior.


so many new faces here today, as mentioned before, with the bronze tier all ads will be gone, including cd key posts. will be interesting to see who actually cares enough


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## cygnus_1 (Jan 29, 2020)

I like Patreon, and I plan to pledge for TPU. But not until Feb 1st. And just my 2 cents, you should've held off on this post until Feb 1st. You see, Patreon always bills on the 1st of the month. No matter when you pledge/subscribe, you're next charge will be the 1st of the next month. For instance, if you pledge today it will renew and charge again in only a couple days. It's really dumb that they operate this way, and to me it means Patreon account holders should refrain from enticing signups toward the end of any given month. People new to Patreon that don't understand this can be very put off by it. 

Just putting it out there in case there are folks here new to Patreon.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> Actually both approaches seem valid to me. The contributions are small enough that they do not pose a financial risk to users. However, Patreon is strictly voluntary, and no one should feel ashamed if they are not a patron. It is perfectly reasonable for a user to have certain standards and expectations, before he/she commits to a donation or patronage. Especially since TPU is doing better than ever, by W1zzard's own admission.
> 
> EDIT: And no one should be passive-aggressively guilted into becoming a patron, which seems to me you are doing.



Sure, but if you're complaining about things, this is an easy way to show that you're willing to put your wallet where your mouth is and contribute something towards getting what you want.
There are some 89k forum members here, if everyone pitched in a bit, I'm sure TPU could do a lot more, although I have no expectations of that ever happening.
But coming on here and complaining about a million things and then saying that you're not going to contribute anything until you see all the things you want is a taking the piss imho.


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## 64K (Jan 29, 2020)

I've been online for around 35 years and I think people expect everything to be free online. It costs money just to have this site online and then there's the paid employees and hardware purchases when manufacturers don't provide samples. So many people are running an adblocker that removes one of the ways that a site can generate revenue to pay for all of this.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

Soy said:


> I would like to support but refuse to do so as long as TPU continues to advertise the selling of keys not meant for resale.  It is illegal, not a grey market thing.  Those keys are not meant to be sold to the public.  My money will never be used to condone unethical behavior.


So take me for example, that have a legit business, I'm not allowed to buy a business key?   
These companies aren't doing anything illegal, as I can go down to the local computer market and pay 3x the price for the same key, as I still don't get a physical disc to go with it.



W1zzard said:


> Isn't monthly better because you can cancel any time?



Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he was hinting at something like a discount if he paid for a year.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jan 29, 2020)

SetiroN said:


> I'd gladly participate if you didn't spam the news section weekly with grey markey key store "promotions".


People being butthurt over that is ridiculous. There is legit 0 issue with it and ive been running on a key off one of those sites for both Windows 10 and Office 2019 with ZERO issues for over a year. 

If you wanna pay out the ass for that software, be my guest. No one is stopping you.


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

cygnus_1 said:


> you should've held off on this post until Feb 1st. You see, Patreon always bills on the 1st of the month [..] and to me it means Patreon account holders should refrain from enticing signups toward the end of any given month


now that you mention it ... you are absolutely right of course .. i didn't think of that ..


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

64K said:


> I've been online for around 35 years and I think people expect everything to be free online. It costs money just to have this site online and then there's the paid employees and hardware purchases when manufacturers don't provide samples. So many people are running an adblocker that removes one of the ways that a site can generate revenue to pay for all of this.


Now now, no need to make things up, the internet hasn't been publicly available for that long...
I've been online about 25 years and before that, it wasn't even possible for most people to get online, unless you count BBSes.
But yes, fully agree with the rest, I don't block ads here,as they're not intrusive or annoying.


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## cygnus_1 (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> now that you mention it ... you are absolutely right of course .. i didn't think of that ..


It's not the end of the world. YOU GUYS are new to Patreon too so I'm not shocked to see it. But that's why I wanted to point it out to others that might also be new to it. Also, that's why I've set myself a reminder to come back to this thread on the 1st and go subscribe


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## Soy (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> Isn't monthly better because you can cancel any time?
> 
> 
> except dynamic charts are not images
> ...


It is not about hiding the offensive ads it is about supporting a site that would have them at all.  Just because it is hidden doesn't mean our money isn't supporting something wrong.  Principle is what separates the conscientious from those without.  

I moderated a site with 50k active users for many years.  When ethical decisions are made, even if hard or you may think it will cost you money, it's surprising how many step up to support.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> Stop the clickbaiting


Who DOESNT use clickbait these days? It's what drives people to the content. You are never NOT going to find this anywhere in today media. Get over it, get used to it. It's here to stay.

Or just stop consuming media. Your post is ignorant and borderline stupid.



Soy said:


> I would like to support but refuse to do so as long as TPU continues to advertise the selling of keys not meant for resale.  It is illegal, not a grey market thing.  Those keys are not meant to be sold to the public.


You clearly have 0 clue.



Soy said:


> My money will never be used to condone unethical behavior.


Then why do you even bother coming here?


----------



## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> By cutting off at 60 FPS for each resolution? Every time you test a new GPU if it doesn't hit 60 FPS for a resolution please lower the settings to a lower tier of your choice removing most of the placebo settings. I don't really know why you bother testing a RX 570 at Ultra when no one would use them unless they are massive masochists.
> 
> You even did something similar with the Borderlands 3 article by choosing the "Ultra" preset instead of the "Badass" one that was a performance hog just for the sake of it. There are plenty of videos around doing an analysis of the different settings and most of them are inane for mid and low range GPUs.
> 
> ...


Benchmarking is about testing everything on equal grounds. Of course no one in their right mind is going to use a 1650 Super to play at 4K. You do need, however, a common baseline for all your testing, in order to compare performance. That comes in the form of using the same platform (CPU, RAM, etc), as well as the same graphical settings. You could argue for testing at High settings instead of Ultra but testing one GPU at High and another at Ultra invalidates the results.

Having low 1% alongside average fps would be a nice addition though.


----------



## 64K (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Now now, no need to make things up, the internet hasn't been publicly available for that long...
> I've been online about 25 years and before that, it wasn't even possible for most people to get online, unless you count BBSes.
> But yes, fully agree with the rest, I don't block ads here,as they're not intrusive or annoying.




I was posting on bulletin board systems since the mid 80s. I consider that to be online.




Soy said:


> It is not about hiding the offensive ads it is about supporting a site that would have them at all.  Just because it is hidden doesn't mean our money isn't supporting something wrong.  Principle is what separates the conscientious from those without.
> 
> I moderated a site with 50k active users for many years.  When ethical decisions are made, even if hard or you may think it will cost you money, it's surprising how many step up to support.




I can't see ads anymore but when I did they weren't intrusive. Probably the least intrusive ads that I have seen on most sites.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jan 29, 2020)

I like how all these "new" members are in this thread. Which means they are actual TPU users who dont want to throw their name into the fire.


----------



## Liquid Cool (Jan 29, 2020)

So...does Patreon allow you to support your favorite site through PayPal yet?  

Best,

Liquid Cool


----------



## damric (Jan 29, 2020)

A good selling point for this would be the ability to obtain/purchase old review samples, or at least get first dibs.

The rest of the benefits you list I don't care about, but I might send you a few dollars when I get paid simply because I love your content.


----------



## Soy (Jan 29, 2020)

64K said:


> I was posting on bulletin board systems since the mid 80s. I consider that to be online.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the ads on the site are done well.  I've got TPU whitelisted in the adblocker.  It is the "sponsored" illegal software key posts that I take issue with for ethical reasons.


CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> I like how all these "new" members are in this thread. Which means they are actual TPU users who dont want to throw their name into the fire.


I"m not another user.  Been viewing this site for well over a decade and have been looking for a way to support it as I well know the costs of running an active community.  However I've got to agree with the decision-making of the operators.  The illegal keys are a sticking point for me.

As far as your problem with "new" members, Wizzard will be able to spend their money just as he can yours.  You'd be surprised how in communities the silent, "less active" ones come through in a big way with financial support.  So your comment may very well be costing Wizzard money in the end.


----------



## bogami (Jan 29, 2020)

And so we lost the internet! everyone makes membership fees, including antivirus upgrades, every year! Abuse of the position  is nothing new !!! The pigs are multiplying, and it will be bursting somewhere ...


----------



## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sure, but if you're complaining about things, this is an easy way to show that you're willing to put your wallet where your mouth is and contribute something towards getting what you want.


One can definitely give TPU (or whatever creator/reviewer/channel/site/etc.) the benefit of the doubt, and pledge a certain amount, hoping that things will change, and if they don't, simply cancel said pledge. Seems reasonable.
However, it also seems reasonable, to support something/someone only if a certain criteria is met. After all, that how it is usually done. I don't purchase a piece of software, hoping that it would one day have the feature I need.
Both seem perfectly sensible approaches to me. Different people have different views.

Besides, if TPU is already doing really well, that would mean that any additional funds from Patreon would not be critically important to the site's survival, so there is little incentive for the TPU staff to listen to the Patrons for feedback, which is perfectly fine, as it is W1zzard's project, and he isn't obliged to change things, unless he wants to. However, that also means that if people have an issue with the site and/or its staff that is a deal-breaker when it comes to donations, and they don't think their pledge would change anything (as outlined above), they have every right to withhold said donations.

I'm generally for this change, as (like I already stated earlier) I believe the additional funds can help the site grow and/or be not as constrained by various written or unwritten rules, restrictions, limitations, NDAs, etc. in the industry.
However, everyone decides how to spend their money.


----------



## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

Rahnak said:


> Benchmarking is about testing everything on equal grounds. Of course no one in their right mind is going to use a 1650 Super to play at 4K. You do need, however, a common baseline for all your testing, in order to compare performance. That comes in the form of using the same platform (CPU, RAM, etc), as well as the same graphical settings. You could argue for testing at High settings instead of Ultra but testing one GPU at High and another at Ultra invalidates the results.



What is the point of the comparison then? They are just numbers thrown around.

Going back again to the Borderlands 3 review I honestly don't know how in the world does it help saying that a RTX 2080 Ti gets 43.4 FPS at 4K Ultra when no one in their right mind would play at those settings. Or, for instance, those not working at all in the lowest end.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

64K said:


> I was posting on bulletin board systems since the mid 80s. I consider that to be online.


Daim! You're old 
Used a few myself, but even that was in the early 90's.



NRANM said:


> One can definitely give TPU (or whatever creator/reviewer/channel/site/etc.) the benefit of the doubt, and pledge a certain amount, hoping that things will change, and if they don't, simply cancel said pledge. Seems reasonable.
> However, it also seems reasonable, to support something/someone only if a certain criteria is met. After all, that how it is usually done. I don't purchase a piece of software, hoping that it would one day have the feature I need.
> 
> Both seem perfectly sensible approaches to me. Different people have different views.
> ...


Considering the content is "free" unlike your comparison with software, I can't really make the connection you're trying to make.

Survival vs. adding more/new types of content aren't the same thing though, are they?
I would look at this as an opportunity to influence the site, as on top of the money, you have now an exclusive channel to contact the site and give them your opinions. It's also much more likely they'll care about those opinions from someone that's contributing financially to the site, no? Unlike what you're trying to insinuate. 
But then again, I guess you know nothing about @W1zzard since you are relatively new here and don't seem to spend much time here. 
I've known him since before TPU even existed, but hey, who's counting...

You're right though, the whole patreon thing is voluntary, but if people are going to come and claim that they want X, Y and Z before they're willing to contribute financially, then I think I have the right to call them out and ask on what grounds they feel they're entitled to ask for said features, if they're not willing to contribute.


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> See, that last line in your comment, right there, tells you exactly why things aren't changing. You now have a chance to financially support a rather small publication that is asking for contribution, but you say no, because a few things aren't up to your standards.


Many of the concerns I have with the site can't be helped by money. It's a big, extremely polarizing, and generally toxic (which yes, clearly I'm not an angel and part of that - which is the problem... the toxic live on, lol) community behind the blog and reviews. Copy/paste news, off base and/or poorly/not researched news pieces...mobo reviews done well below the base memory spec (w/o editors knowing?). It seems like a lack of editorial oversight.

Would this pay for an editor? If so, I'll put my money where my big yap is too... not a monthly thing, naaaa, but I'll drop some coin if it reels in some of the excess and tighten things up. GPU reviews are second to none. Motherboard reviews are, now, solid (since he was urged to run them properly - but not like when Dave did it), case reviews are borderline yikes (they are unboxings and the author doesn't seem to respond to many posts at all). A lot of this can be improved without additional money.

The sky is the limit here, and I am ready to see TPU go to the next level...hopefully patreons can help MTPUGA. 

With the amount of traffic this site gets...is monetization of the current assets optimal?


----------



## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> What is the point of the comparison then? They are just numbers thrown around.
> 
> Going back again to the Borderlands 3 review I honestly don't know how in the world does it help saying that a RTX 2080 Ti gets 43.4 FPS at 4K Ultra when no one in their right mind would play at those settings. Or, for instance, those not working at all in the lowest end.


The point is precisely being able to compare different GPUs. If you bench a RX570 at High and a RX590 at Ultra, you can no longer compare the performance difference between them because your baseline isn't equal.

Now, I get your point, you want GPUs tested in their optimal/intended use cases so you know what performance *you* are going to get when playing games. But doing so would be a tremendous amount of work, because not only would you not use an RX 570 at Ultra, you most likely wouldn't pair it with a 9900k either. In an ideal world, you'd have both sets of tests, but that's not realistic. Imo, the comparison between different GPUs is more beneficial to the buyer than benching for the ideal setting.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> that would mean that any additional funds from Patreon would not be critically important to the site's survival





TheLostSwede said:


> you have now an exclusive channel to contact the site and give them your opinions


Correct


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> What is the point of the comparison then? They are just numbers thrown around.
> 
> Going back again to the Borderlands 3 review I honestly don't know how in the world does it help saying that a RTX 2080 Ti gets 43.4 FPS at 4K Ultra when no one in their right mind would play at those settings. Or, for instance, those not working at all in the lowest end.


Dude, you clearly don't know the first thing about benchmarking hardware if that's your comment to his very logical explanation.
I've spent about a decade of my life testing hardware for various publications and although test methodologies improve and new tests are being used, you need to compare apples with apples, otherwise you're just wasting your time and come up with flawed conclusions. 
You seems to want some kind of testing that would just end up being nonsense.

If anything, it seems like what you want, is a new addition to the tests that tells you what quality settings and resolution in each games gives you playable frame rate with whatever card is being tested at the various resolutions. But this is an entirely different thing and doesn't involve comparative benchmarks.

As for your Borderlands 3 question, it tells people that they shouldn't expect to be able to play said game at said resolution with said hardware. It's as simple as that. See again above, as that seems to be what you're asking for and not benchmark figures.



EarthDog said:


> Many of the concerns I have with the site can't be helped by money. It's a big, extremely polarizing, and generally toxic (which yes, clearly I'm not an angel and part of that - which is the problem... the toxic live on, lol) community behind the blog and reviews. Copy/paste news, off base and/or poorly researched pieces...mobo reviews done well below the base memory spec (w/o editors knowing?. It seems like a lack of editorial oversight.
> 
> Would this pay for an editor? If so, I'll put my money where my big yap is too... not a monthly thing, naaaa, but I'll drop some coin if it reels in some of the excess and tighten things up. GPU reviews are second to none. Motherboard reviews are, now, solid (but not like when Dave did it), case reviews are borderline yikes (they are unboxings and the author doesn't seem to respond to many posts at all. A lot of this can be improved without additional money.
> 
> The sky is the limit here, and I am ready to see TPU go to the next level...hopefully patreons can help MTPUGA.


Now see, this is at least some constructive criticism and I even agree on a lot of those points. But the difference is that you never said you want those things before you'd be willing to contribute, which is what my point was.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> send me your resume and some sample posts



and take it from me:  It's not as easy as it sounds.  

If I thought it was just w1zzard and not that journalism frankly is just hard work, I'd still be sending out resumed.  I'm not.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> and take it from me:  It's not as easy as it sounds.


It was actually a LOT easier back in the magazine days, as you had a whole month to produce the content before it went to print. These days, you need multiple articles a day or the readership goes elsewhere. I believe this is also why there's so much crap content online and why no-one does any real copy editing any more. Reading far bigger publications than TPU has me in tears at times and English is not my first language...


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> But the difference is that you never said you want those things before you'd be willing to contribute, which is what my point was.


Well, I've said that before in public as well as to stakeholders over the years... so, I did (assuming I didn't misunderstand). And, these changes are free anyway. 

But yeah, I'd throw down a dono if I knew the cash is going towards an editor to clean up some of the content. Otherwise, its the same thing. I don't care about the features being a patreon brings... as a EIC/editor/reviewer and site owner myself, the blog content and toxic AF back-end is what needs cleaned up (for me).


----------



## Kinestron (Jan 29, 2020)

cygnus_1 said:


> I like Patreon, and I plan to pledge for TPU. But not until Feb 1st. And just my 2 cents, you should've held off on this post until Feb 1st. You see, Patreon always bills on the 1st of the month. No matter when you pledge/subscribe, you're next charge will be the 1st of the next month. For instance, if you pledge today it will renew and charge again in only a couple days. It's really dumb that they operate this way, and to me it means Patreon account holders should refrain from enticing signups toward the end of any given month. People new to Patreon that don't understand this can be very put off by it.
> 
> Just putting it out there in case there are folks here new to Patreon.



Thanks, I didn't know that and would have been peeved seeing the charge again so soon. I plan on pledging for a couple months here and there. I just hope what happened to HardOCP doesn't happen here where just a few months after I started donating(due to their coverage of Nvidia GPP that no one else was confronting), they shut down to pursue other ventures.


----------



## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Considering the content is "free" unlike your comparison with software, I can't really make the connection you're trying to make.


The principle remains the same. People don't usually spend money on something/anything, hoping that the issue they have with that thing would be resolved in the future.



TheLostSwede said:


> Survival vs. adding more/new types of content aren't the same thing though, are they?
> I would look at this as an opportunity to influence the site, as on top of the money, you have now an exclusive channel to contact the site and give them your opinions. It's also much more likely they'll care about those opinions from someone that's contributing financially to the site, no? Unlike what you're trying to insinuate.


I never argued that surviving and adding more content were the same thing.
If Person X starts a Patreon for some bonus funding to an already well functioning project, why would that Person X care much about the opinion of Person Y if Person Y's contribution is insignificant? Who cares about that one-digit amount from a single person? It's a drop in the ocean.



TheLostSwede said:


> But then again, I guess you know nothing about @W1zzard since you are relatively new here and don't seem to spend much time here.
> I've known him since before TPU even existed, but hey, who's counting...


Your smugness kind of proves my point, I think.
Maybe some users don't know W1zzard as well. Maybe they are more recent members/users who have seen multiple gaffs from TPU, and maybe they believe they could've been handled better, so they wouldn't be as confident in TPU's staff as more frequent and/or long-time users.



TheLostSwede said:


> You're right though, the whole patreon thing is voluntary, but if people are going to come and claim that they want X, Y and Z before they're willing to contribute financially, then I think I have the right to call them out and ask on what grounds they feel they're entitled to ask for said features, if they're not willing to contribute.


There is nothing wrong with asking those people why they wouldn't contribute. There is something wrong with trying to shame and/or guilt them into donating. Their reasons for not donating are their own. To you, their reasons may be silly; to them, they are not.


----------



## Cheeseball (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> ... how in the world does it help saying that a RTX 2080 Ti gets 43.4 FPS at 4K Ultra ...



It brings up three points:
"Borderlands 3 is quite stressful at Badass settings on the currently most powerful consumer card at the moment"
"to get a playable, yet enjoyable experience, you would need to lower your settings"
"this video card is better than this one when at these settings"

Off-topic, but FWIW, I can get around 100 to 120 FPS on a mix of High and Ultra settings on a reference RX 5700 XT. I can pound on 144 FPS on mostly Ultra settings on a RTX 2080 Super. If I use the RX 5700 XT settings on the 2080 Super, I only get drops to around 114 FPS (from what I remember) in extremely crowded fights.

The only thing I keep at "Medium" is the stupid volumetric fog. No real visual changes when setting this higher or such.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> It was actually a LOT easier back in the magazine days, as you had a whole month to produce the content before it went to print. These days, you need multiple articles a day or the readership goes elsewhere. I believe this is also why there's so much crap content online and why no-one does any real copy editing any more. Reading far bigger publications than TPU has me in tears at times and English is not my first language...



Indeed.  I was trained in a college newspaper...  that had a real printing press in the basement.

It was a scary place that smelled bad.  But it was home, and I miss it.


----------



## Blitzr (Jan 29, 2020)

Hey W1zzard.

What patreon unlocks will affect the mobile TPU app? "Reviews" tab is already formatted to a single-page layout.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> The principle remains the same. People don't usually spend money on something/anything, hoping that the issue they have with that thing would be resolved in the future.
> 
> 
> I never argued that surviving and adding more content were the same thing.
> ...



Again, you clearly don't seem to grasp the idea behind this, nor the fact did you see that @W1zzard stated that the point of the closed forum was that the Patreon supporters would have a more direct line of communication with him and the team. But please, keep making up your own ideas if that makes you happy instead of actually bothering to try and understand what it is they're trying to do here.


----------



## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Again, you clearly don't seem to grasp the idea behind this, nor the fact did you see that @W1zzard stated that the point of the closed forum was that the Patreon supporters would have a more direct line of communication with him and the team. But please, keep making up your own ideas if that makes you happy instead of actually bothering to try and understand what it is they're trying to do here.


Having a more direct line of communication does not in any way guarantee that any criticisms or suggestions would be addressed or even acknowledged.

And since it would seem I am incapable of understanding the situation (or maybe you know something I don't), care to enlighten me, kind sir?


----------



## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

Rahnak said:


> The point is precisely being able to compare different GPUs. If you bench a RX570 at High and a RX590 at Ultra, you can no longer compare the performance difference between them because your baseline isn't equal.
> 
> Now, I get your point, you want GPUs tested in their optimal/intended use cases so you know what performance *you* are going to get when playing games. But doing so would be a tremendous amount of work, because not only would you not use an RX 570 at Ultra, you most likely wouldn't pair it with a 9900k either. In an ideal world, you'd have both sets of tests, but that's not realistic. Imo, the comparison between different GPUs is more beneficial to the buyer than benching for the ideal setting.



Wait. Are you telling me that the only point of these benchmarks is purely academic and with no real world usage? Because I don't need to be reminded with every single GPU review that the RTX 2080 Ti is 10 times better than a RX 570. Even less at pointless settings.

Because in the end that's what reviews at TPU feel like a ranking repeated over and over and over. The summary would be something like this: "This new YYY card is slightly better than XXX but slightly worse than ZZZ. Will you get a nice experience from it? Go figure it yourself".



Cheeseball said:


> It brings up three points:
> "Borderlands 3 is quite stressful at Badass settings on the currently most powerful consumer card at the moment"



"Borderlands 3 is quite stressful at Badass settings on the currently most powerful consumer card at the moment but that won't stop us from running it at unplayable settings"

"Is the IQ improvement worth it? Don't ask me, my middle name is "Ultra".



Cheeseball said:


> "to get a playable, yet enjoyable experience, you would need to lower your settings"



"to get a playable, yet enjoyable experience, you would need to lower your settings. Now go and find them yourself"



Cheeseball said:


> "this video card is better than this one when at these settings"



"this video card is better than this one when at these pointless settings"



Cheeseball said:


> Off-topic, but FWIW, I can get around 100 to 120 FPS on a mix of High and Ultra settings on a reference RX 5700 XT. I can pound on 144 FPS on mostly Ultra settings on a RTX 2080 Super. If I use the RX 5700 XT settings on the 2080 Super, I only get drops to around 114 FPS (from what I remember) in extremely crowded fights.
> 
> The only thing I keep at "Medium" is the stupid volumetric fog. No real visual changes when setting this higher or such.



These couple sentences are more helpful than the whole BL3 review here.


----------



## azngreentea01 (Jan 29, 2020)

In my opinion, For me the price is a little high with little offer.  If it start out at $2 bronze, 3$ silver, and $5 Gold  then maybe.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

Blitzr said:


> What patreon unlocks will affect the mobile TPU app? "Reviews" tab is already formatted to a single-page layout.


The mobile apps haven't been updated for a long time, and are somewhat buggy atm. Not sure what to do with them. The site works perfectly in your mobile browser, so why duplicate the effort/maintenance/etc?


----------



## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> Wait. Are you telling me that the only point of these benchmarks is purely academic and with no real world usage? Because I don't need to be reminded with every single GPU review that the RTX 2080 Ti is 10 times better than a RX 570. Even less at pointless settings.
> 
> Because in the end that's what reviews at TPU feel like a ranking repeated over and over and over. The summary would be something like this: "This new YYY card is slightly better than XXX but slightly worse than ZZZ. Will you get a nice experience from it? Go figure it yourself".


You don't need anyone to tell you the 2080 Ti is on a very different level from the RX 570, no. But what if you're torn between buying the 1660 Super or the 1660 Ti? Do you know how big the gap is and if it's work the extra money to you? Or between the 1660 Ti and 5600XT? That's what these reviews aim to tell you, so you can get the best bang for your buck.
Figuring out how a particular GPU will perform on your system will then require some extrapolation. Is it perfect? No. Does it work? Yes.


----------



## trom89 (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> - $3000: Stop the clickbaiting and senseless rumors in the main site[...]



Here is an idea, on the same location of the new's that is used to announce if it is a  review, announcement, press release, etc under the title, just mark the ones that are not confirmed as "LEAK", "WRITER OPINION", "RUMOR" and inside the article post in big red font "This information is NOT confirmed by the company bla bla bla."

Or just move the non facts from the news and create a new section...


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 29, 2020)

bogami said:


> And so we lost the internet! everyone makes membership fees, including antivirus upgrades, every year! Abuse of the position  is nothing new !!! The pigs are multiplying, and it will be bursting somewhere ...



Yes, the pig always expects something for nothing.  You can just go on as you have, you know.  The payments are optional.


----------



## Cheeseball (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> Are you telling me that the only point of these benchmarks is purely academic and with no real world usage?
> 
> ...reviews at TPU feel like a ranking repeated over and over and...



That is the point of the *Benchmark Test & Performance Analysis* articles. To see how good current video cards would work at the highest settings that is playable by the most powerful card. From the information you gather there, you can already conclude *yourself* that some of the settings in a game is not worth it. You can also conclude if the card you're interested is good compared to others on that list.

If you want real world usage, it would be best for you to experiment with the settings in the game itself. These are not purely game reviews.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> The mobile apps haven't been updated for a long time, and are somewhat buggy atm. Not sure what to do with them. The site works perfectly in your mobile browser, so why duplicate the effort/maintenance/etc?



I use the app for just the forums, was unaware it was even broken elsewhere, lol.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

trom89 said:


> just mark the ones that are not confirmed as "LEAK", "WRITER OPINION", "RUMOR" and inside the article post in big red font "This information is NOT confirmed by the company bla bla bla."


I like the idea. "Opinion" is covered by "Editorial" already. "Leak"/"Rumor" are effectively the same. I guess "Rumor" could be best option?


----------



## arczi19 (Jan 29, 2020)

How about an option to support for $1 monthly (or any custom amount) just for the sake of supporting and not having any extra benefits?


----------



## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

Rahnak said:


> You don't need anyone to tell you the 2080 Ti is on a very different level from the RX 570, no. But what if you're torn between buying the 1660 Super or the 1660 Ti? Do you know how big the gap is and if it's work the extra money to you? Or between the 1660 Ti and 5600XT? That's what these reviews aim to tell you, so you can get the best bang for your buck.
> Figuring out how a particular GPU will perform on your system will then require some extrapolation. Is it perfect? No. Does it work? Yes.



I don't really know if the performance gap is useful if I don't even know if I'll be able to even run the game properly... or at all like some charts point out.



Cheeseball said:


> That is the point of the *Benchmark Test & Performance Analysis* articles. To see how good current video cards would work at the highest settings that is playable by the most powerful card. From the information you gather there, you can already conclude *yourself* that some of the settings in a game is not worth it. You can also conclude if the card you're interested is good compared to others on that list.
> 
> If you want real world usage, it would be best for you to experiment with the settings in the game itself. These are not purely game reviews.



So they are, indeed, useless.


----------



## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

bogami said:


> And so we lost the internet! everyone makes membership fees, including antivirus upgrades, every year! Abuse of the position  is nothing new !!! The pigs are multiplying, and it will be bursting somewhere ...


Why should everything on the internet be free? Back in the day, if you wanted this sort of content, you had to buy a PC magazine. The medium changed but there are still real people making the content that need to be paid. Luckily there are other ways for them to get revenue so you/we don't have to pay. But that's not always enough or not always the best way.



W1zzard said:


> The mobile apps haven't been updated for a long time, and are somewhat buggy atm. Not sure what to do with them. The site works perfectly in your mobile browser, so why duplicate the effort/maintenance/etc?


If they don't have any extra functionality over the site, imo you should drop 'em.



Imouto said:


> I don't really know if the performance gap is useful if I don't even know if I'll be able to even run the game properly... or at all like some charts point out.


How so? You have the 3 more common resolutions. Pick the one you use. If you like to play at High, you know the fps is going to be higher. If your CPU is older/slower, subtract a few.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Jan 29, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> I think there's some fundamental things that need to be addressed as far as news reporting before one decides to support the site.
> 
> Im talking about clickbait and 'sensationalist' articles and of course who could forget the hit peice on GamerNexus earlier in the year...
> 
> ...




Steve is a shill at times and is a rabid fanboy at times.

He does sensationalist articles/videos.
He does click bait articles/videos.
He doesn't disclose where and when he gets 'gifts' or massive 'discounts' by vendors/suppliers/etc.
He will beat around the bush, saying he 'aquired' and the item is 'worth'. If he actually buys it he says so.
He is self interested and is a massive *divo*.
He takes cash and items directly from manufacturers and vendors.

He may not have a direct link to Nvidia as he raged about in the anon outing response. Where he basically shamed and refused to accept the apology from TPU.

I think his 'reporting' is blogger level crap. He acts like he discovered the 2060 KO having a failed 2070 die, but rushes out how it's got a 40+% uplift in workstation performance. Then he stalls on the video about how NV and EVGA neutered it's overclocking, how it uses more power, and runs hotter... TPU had their article up with those details but other Youboob channels only mentioned GN because...

He hammered the Radeon VII because it was meh at gaming, he couldn't complain enough about that disgusting thermal pad.

Fine he's gaming focused... Oh wait what? Only CUDA is good enough to get rendering and compute benchmarks? Why he scared that his overpriced Quadro RTX 5000 getting destroyed in video rendering would look bad... Radeon VII is twice as fast as a 2080 Ti in Blender last I looked... Now that Premiere uses OpenCL I bet it would really tear his precious a new one.

Steve isn't innocent, he's just opaque and he only said he didn't get sponsored by Nvidia directly... He was so upset because it hit so close.

So I hope TPU doesn't go down that road. It would be utterly gutting if they started to be influenced by the money.

I will support TPU as best as I can when I can afford to. I wish there was a little $2 tier.

Edit: I want to clarify, I have questioned GNs supposed lack of outside influence for quite some time. I'm sorry but not just any Joe Blow gets behind the scenes tours of manufacturing plants, inside looks at how board vendors design their custom boards, direct access to high ranking folk in those companies.

Take his very boldly planted Thermal Grizzly sponsored materials. Does he disclose every video, no... Then he uses a tube of Hydronaut, but refers only to it as thermal paste when he says in a video shortly after that it turned to rock in the tube in a video with thermal results... Why not use Kryonaut? Is it because like Buildzoid mentioned he and others found that it seems to scratch dies. Nope just silently he changes paste...

He definitely doesn't bite the hand that pays his bills. I wouldn't hate so much but I hate how righteously he acts when he's very much like a politician saying those donations aren't bribes... They might not be directly but humans are susceptible to influence and that stuff influences his opinion.

In my honest non-professional opinion. I get it won't be popular to view PC Jesus in such a skeptical light.

I honestly want to Congratulate Steve on supporting such awesome causes. I tried to bring myself to buying something from his store, but I couldn't. So I directly donated to the causes. But no $20 signatures for me... Heh

Edit 2:

Please set the minimum tier at $2 month, because I think I can afford to swing that right now. It also lets the site get a real donation.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

arczi19 said:


> How about an option to support for $1 monthly (or any custom amount) just for the sake of supporting and not having any extra benefits?


I think that's already possible at Patreon, give it a try


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 29, 2020)

This looks like it is starting up again. Unless I missed it (and I certainly might have) do those of us who are already Patreon supporters of TPU need to sign up again, or does it just carry over?


----------



## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

Rahnak said:


> How so? You have the 3 more common resolutions. Pick the one you use. If you like to play at High, you know the fps is going to be higher. If your CPU is older/slower, subtract a few.



That is what I'm getting at. Why present useless data and leave the information relevant to the end user up to their imagination when you can do much better?

I'm sorry but I can't even fathom how this is useful for anything but fueling the war between loyalists.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

rtwjunkie said:


> or does it just carry over?


Check your inbox from Patreon, I sent out messages to existing subs before the news post announcement. I ported your permissions to the new tier levels already, but you might want to cancel and resub at the new lower pricing


----------



## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> I think that's already possible at Patreon, give it a try


After a membership level is selected, there is a field where one can see the pledge, and edit it. However, it keeps reverting back to the pre-determined amount, after changing it to 1.


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> After a membership level is selected, there is a field where one can see the pledge, and edit it. However, it keeps reverting back to the pre-determined amount, after changing it to 1.





			https://www.patreon.com/join/TechPowerUp?
		

Does that link have a "make a custom pledge" button below the 3 pledges?


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## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> https://www.patreon.com/join/TechPowerUp?
> 
> 
> Does that link have a "make a custom pledge" button below the 3 pledges?


It does. It wasn't there before, I think.


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## W1zzard (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> It does. I wasn't there before, I think.


Yeah, note the ? at the end of the URL. Not sure why they're doing it like that. Probably they want to hide the reduced cost option by default

@arczi19 this should work for you, too


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## Cheeseball (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> I don't really know if the performance gap is useful if I don't even know if I'll be able to even run the game properly... or at all like some charts point out.



Your argument is quite flawed here. If a card runs a game at 23 FPS at 4K on maximum settings, *you can already conclude* that it would probably run a lot better with a lower resolution and settings. The reviews already did the job with the currently common resolutions here.

There is no need to run game benchmarks at medium or low settings when you can already determine what will happen at max (or near max).



Imouto said:


> I don't really know if the performance gap is useful if I don't even know if I'll be able to even run the game properly... or at all like some charts point out.
> 
> So they are, indeed, useless.





Imouto said:


> That is what I'm getting at. Why present useless data and leave the information relevant to the end user up to their imagination when you can do much better?
> 
> I'm sorry but I can't even fathom how this is useful for anything but fueling the war between loyalists.



If you don't know what to do with the data, then that's up to you.

Data like that (especially the 1080p and 1440p charts) is helpful in determining which card is worth upgrading to. If I'm upgrading to a 2080 Ti (I'm not since I have a 2080 Super), I would like to know how it runs at maximum settings. If it can't handle it, then I would simply *lower the settings*.


----------



## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> That is what I'm getting at. Why present useless data and leave the information relevant to the end user up to their imagination when you can do much better?
> 
> I'm sorry but I can't even fathom how this is useful for anything but fueling the war between loyalists.


Open up a word doc and type out the configurations you'd use to test out all current gpus available. You'll see why what you propose is unfeasible.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 29, 2020)

NRANM said:


> In my opinion paid reviews are always a bad idea if a website has a reputation for being trustworthy and objective. The moment I see a paid review (text, video, whatever), I immediately consider it worthless. I also don't trust any articles or videos that may be sponsored by Company X, even if they are not directly related to the subject matter, like for example "Let's build a gaming PC. This video is sponsored by be quiet!." And then the case, PSU, CPU cooler and case fans are all be quiet! ones. That isn't a "let us help you build a well balanced gaming PC (for a certain budget)" video; this is "let me advertise these components to you" video.
> 
> The way I see it, services like Patreon actually help reviewers who want to be objective to remain that way. When one has independent funding, one is much less reliant on the benevolence of hardware manufacturers. It is what allows Gamers Nexus to still review hardware if they are unhappy with how a manufacturer is handling NDAs or cannot take criticism and blacklist them, etc. "You don't want to provide a sample for review because you are butthurt over something? No problemo, we are going to purchase it with our own money, and do whatever we want."



GamersNexus works with Linus all the time, yet Linus does a lot of paid reviews and still gives honest feedback. I agree with you I don't want that to become TPU the more I think about it, but loads of people still trust and watch Linus, and know that there are certain reviews he does to take with a grain of salt, but he still gives honest brutal opinion a lot of times while still raking in the money. One of the reasons Linus could even talk about retiring in his early 30s recently is because of how rich he has become, can't lie, I envy that and would retire in a heartbeat if I had as much money in savings as I assume he does. yolo


----------



## Naito (Jan 29, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I guess you've never 1. worked as a tech journalist and 2. never had your own business?



Both things are true and I admit my view my be a bit too narrow, but that's why I added that I hope that the Patreon subscribers could help with the opportunity to write such reviews and, in my opinion, draw more readers as I'd say a review of a Seasonic PSU or Lian Li case will bring more readers than a review of the umpteenth mouse Thermaltake has released. May I ask where your supporter badge is?


----------



## T4C Fantasy (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> I like the idea. "Opinion" is covered by "Editorial" already. "Leak"/"Rumor" are effectively the same. I guess "Rumor" could be best option?


change editorial to Opinion or Satire, these words are more recognized by the majority of the people, and definitely add Rumor.


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## Imouto (Jan 29, 2020)

Rahnak said:


> Open up a word doc and type out the configurations you'd use to test out all current gpus available. You'll see why what you propose is unfeasible.



This is a mock up.

New game into the lineup:

- Check settings until the worst card does 60 FPS at 1080p. - Call it "Budget".
- Check settings until the worst ~$300 card does 60 FPS at 1440p. - Call it "Performance"
- Check settings until the worst ~$400 card does 60 FPS at 4K. - Call it "Premium"

- Get all the cards from the worst to ~$300 and test them with "Budget" settings. Congrats, now you have real world data.
- Get all the cards from ~$300 to ~$400 and test them with "Performance" settings. Congrats, now you have real world data.
- Get all the cards from ~$400 onwards and test them with "Premium" settings. Congrats, now you have real world data.

- If you want to go the extra mile get one or two cards that are borderline into another segment and test them with those settings. Use those reference points to link the three segments.

1234 | 4567 | 789

win / win / win

- You end up doing 4 more tests.
- If a card can't keep up with a resolution no matter the settings be honest about it and drop it from the chart.
- If the game isn't demanding at all feel free to drop one segment.
- Repeat for every manufacturer.
- Revisit the methodology once a year or six months if you are bored.

Again, only a first draft.

This is honestly the first time I've heard of buying a product based on awful performance numbers and crossing your fingers so it performs adequately when it gets home.


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## EarthDog (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> I don't really know if the performance gap is useful if I don't even know if I'll be able to even run the game properly... or at all like some charts point out.


in the end, you really just don't know...


Imouto said:


> This is a mock up.
> 
> New game into the lineup:
> 
> ...


Yikes. No. Just...No. wow.

My dude, every PC player's goal (money notwithstanding) is to run ultra settings in games. Sadly, this isnt possible for many users, again due to money. But there are so many games and so many settings and resolutions, what is real to you, isnt real to the next person. Testing using ultra settings is designed to show a relative difference between the cards. The goal isnt to show you what fps you will get in game. Even using an ingame benchmark doesnt really show ingame fps. The point is to show relative performance bud. Everyone is going to set something different and you cant please everyone. If you see "awful" performance numbers at a given res in a given title, guess what, that card isnt good enough. The point is to run at the highest settings where possible, turning things down only when needed. God only knows what you, I, he, and she turn down to reach 60 fps.

I think this would be a great discussion to carry on in a thread of it's own.....


----------



## Sashleycat (Jan 29, 2020)

So I thought I'd add my 0.02$ as it were, if that is the correct phrase. 

I decided to support TechPowerUp in Patreon very recently. I see a lot of concerns from other users in this thread and I understand some of them, but I will remain neutral on many of them.

I don't really know how to word this well but I have some bullet points from things I noticed in the thread here:


TPU's graphics card reviews offer an excellent view of 'overall performance' of a graphics card's performance. The wide game suite gives us a better look at the product's performance from a top-level, more so than other publications who test (even if more detailed with % lows and stuff as mentioned earlier), because they test A LOT fewer games. I have been quoted as stating before now "2 or 3 benchmarks isn't indicative of a GPU's performance, you should take an average of maybe a dozen games that are popular and graphically demanding". And I stand by that. We have to remember W1zzard is "only" human too, lol. I absolutely love the GPU perf review "Summary" option of all of the games. If I want a more detailed look at 1 or 2 games some other pubs or YouTube has that covered. I see TPU's charts linked EVERYWHERE for overall product positioning and performance. Please don't change this! Just generally, I love the reviews detail & content about graphics architecture, and I the author's opinions and I feel the reviews are 100% solid and I'm willing to pay Patreon to support these.


Ads: I never actually had an issue with the adverts on TPU, as the banners were almost always PC related and relevant. As for the "grey market" key ads, I won't lie, I don't feel they are appropriate for TPU but if the revenue is there then I can tolerate them.


I won't comment on particular authors of articles as I haven't noticed anything that I immediately think is not OK (But please keep in mind I am highly autistic, I mainly read GPU reviews or news concerning GPU / CPU / processors and such).

I might think of some more things to add, but the way I feel is that no one does graphics cards (that is the bread and butter of TPU for me) reviews like TPU, and also making GPU-z, hosting some other great tools (like the custom Ryzen power plan!) & excellent community on the forums (bless you guys/gals ) and generally I felt it was more than worth the Patreon support every month. I pay about the same for an Adobe Rush sub, and I'd argue I spend more time reading TPU than using Rush (this is a fact) so why not.

Going forward I would like to see TPU thrive and keep up the comprehensive & broad GPU reviews that give the (IMHO) the industry's best insights into a Graphics Card's "top-level" performance. Maybe you could hire another editor to do a more detailed look at a smaller sub-selection of games? This would allow you to cater to that, also. By the way, I enjoy reading Anandtech, too.

Maybe for certain games you could include the minimum/lows  % FPS. For the games that flirt with 60 FPS this might be an idea but overall I like what you are doing @W1zzard  keep it up!

Thanks for reading my long post :3


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## dirtyferret (Jan 29, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> Sure, if I bring down the number of games to 5, at 2 resolutions, with 3 other cards compared.. and we'll be like everybody else.
> 27 comparison cards x 21 games x 4 resolutions = 2268 test runs currently



This.  I'm personally tired of people screaming about .1% lows. 
1 - I come to TPU to see a broad spectrum of games.  Other then maybe PCgamer, I don't know of any site that uses as many games in their reviews and off the top of my head I think TPU still uses more.  
2 - If I want .1% then I know which sites will show it.   I also know which specific site will run it into the ground as the end all be all in order to justify those 18 cores you must have for your CPU.


----------



## twometre (Jan 29, 2020)

I support TPU because I would like to support someone that push hard and keep cadence on what they love for decades - which I couldn't do myself now lol. Keep it up on the field you're keen on. No need to show up faces and do eyecandy RGB videos. Let me know if you need any localisation assistance from Thai sources.


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## Rahnak (Jan 29, 2020)

Imouto said:


> - Check settings until the worst card does 60 FPS at 1080p. - Call it "Budget".
> - Check settings until the worst ~$300 card does 60 FPS at 1440p. - Call it "Performance"
> - Check settings until the worst ~$400 card does 60 FPS at 4K. - Call it "Premium"
> 
> ...


Well, how far do you lower the settings? Personally I don't like to go lower than high. Person X might be OK with normal. And if you're calling it real world data.. you can't pair the the GPUs with the same CPU as that's no longer realistic. You're introducing a lot of variables into testing that make the process a lot harder, more time consuming and more prone to errors. And how confusing is it going to be when people see cards in such different price points having similar fps numbers?



Imouto said:


> This is honestly the first time I've heard of buying a product based on awful performance numbers and crossing your fingers so it performs adequately when it gets home.


That's not how it works. The reviews show you performance at Ultra and relative performance compared to other GPUs. In simple terms, say I'm looking for a 1080p card, I'm going to go with the one that offers the most performance within my budget. It's that simple, buy the best you can afford. And without relative performance you don't know which one that is.


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## NRANM (Jan 29, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> GamersNexus works with Linus all the time, yet Linus does a lot of paid reviews and still gives honest feedback. I agree with you I don't want that to become TPU the more I think about it, but loads of people still trust and watch Linus, and know that there are certain reviews he does to take with a grain of salt, but he still gives honest brutal opinion a lot of times while still raking in the money. One of the reasons Linus could even talk about retiring in his early 30s recently is because of how rich he has become, can't lie, I envy that and would retire in a heartbeat if I had as much money in savings as I assume he does. yolo


Linus is filthy rich because he is a businessman first, an entertainer second, and a reviewer (distant?) third. Now, there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, the guy is free to run his business/channel however he likes. Clearly it is working out for him on multiple levels. However, I dislike both his overall strategy and his style. I acknowledge that he manages to provide some honest opinions and data (to his credit), despite probably being sponsored by every hardware company on the planet, but simply knowing that he gets so many sponsorship deals makes me unable to trust him as much as I trust GN for example. Also, Linus's style isn't my cup of tea at all. I know his goal is to simplify/dumb things down, while also trying to be funny ("trying" being the key word here) so that he can reach the widest audience possible, but, by God, sometimes his videos come off as like a tech version of Sesame Street.


----------



## CheapMeat (Jan 29, 2020)

Just wanted to say TPU is my homepage. It's the first site I check out everyday. The layout has a lot to do with it. It's been very easy to scroll and see many posts; a lot less cluttered than most sites.

Personally I come to TPU because there tends to be more news and articles about lesser talked about products/accessories, etc instead of just more typical info on the 99999th iteration of the same GPU. I'd found so many cool / interesting things to buy because of TPU.  I really don't mind the non-review posts.

So thanks a lot to the TPU team, really. 

Does TPU accept BAT (basic attention coin)?


----------



## dirtyferret (Jan 30, 2020)

...maybe non-pretentious Steve can cut W1zzard a check for all the YouTube money he made on his 23 minute rant he was so quick to post...


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 30, 2020)

The bills have to be paid somehow. Someone says they don’t like ads, well here’s a way to avoid ads. Anyone who thinks it should be ad-free and free-free has obviously never owned a business or run a business office for a company.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Jan 30, 2020)

I am just sitting here laughing. Can't make everyone happy no matter what.

Wise saying "I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day and tomorrow doesn't look good either."


----------



## ScaLibBDP (Jan 30, 2020)

>>...This does not mean TPU is in financial trouble, quite the opposite, we're doing better than ever...

Honestly, I don't believe in that. Then, why somebody should support:

- Absolutely Web-based company that spreads rumors (  that could really harm TPU reputation! / serious companies do Not spread rumors! Period! ),
- Could disappear in a matter of seconds
- Mixes politics and technology, and,
- The most important, does Not provide real names of all people which hold different positions at TPU on "Contact US" web-page.

With all my respect to TPU guys, why a person would give money to somebody he/she really do Not know? Just ask that question to yourself.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 30, 2020)

ScaLibBDP said:


> With all my respect to TPU guys, why a person would give money to somebody he/she really do Not know? Just ask that question to yourself.


Just because YOU don’t know his name doesn’t mean W1zzard is not a well-known and respected entity in the tech world.


----------



## ScaLibBDP (Jan 30, 2020)

rtwjunkie said:


> Just because YOU don’t know his name doesn’t mean W1zzard is not a well-known and respected entity in the tech world.



Wow, Really? I'd like to see his Wiki-page...


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## rtwjunkie (Jan 30, 2020)

ScaLibBDP said:


> Wow, Really? I'd like to see his Wiki-page...


You’re delusional. Do some research, then come back and join the conversation.


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## dirtyferret (Jan 30, 2020)

You have some serious anger issues...about tech review sites


----------



## tacosRcool (Jan 30, 2020)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> People being butthurt over that is ridiculous. There is legit 0 issue with it and ive been running on a key off one of those sites for both Windows 10 and Office 2019 with ZERO issues for over a year.
> 
> If you wanna pay out the ass for that software, be my guest. No one is stopping you.



My coworker bought a couple of Office keys and they work without a problem. I second this.


----------



## Kursah (Jan 30, 2020)

ScaLibBDP said:


> Wow, Really? I'd like to see his Wiki-page...



For most this site and its community having been around since 2004-ish, tools like GPU-z, TPUCAPTURE, MEMTEST64, etc., are his track record are plenty. For some that's not good enough and that's fine, stick around and see what this place is about, learn a few things, help some folks, enjoy your time here, that is what I tell folks.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 30, 2020)

ScaLibBDP said:


> >>...This does not mean TPU is in financial trouble, quite the opposite, we're doing better than ever...
> 
> Honestly, I don't believe in that. Then, why somebody should support:
> 
> ...


I know several of the guys that work here in person and tend to meet them at least once a year. You're entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are. The guys are well respected in the industry, regardless of your baseless slander.
Also, ever heard of nom de plume? Ah, but you're not a writer, so I guess not.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jan 30, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> ...maybe non-pretentious Steve can cut W1zzard a check for all the YouTube money he made on his 23 minute rant he was so quick to post...


don't worry,btranrur's clickbaits pay triple.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 30, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> I am just sitting here laughing. Can't make everyone happy no matter what.



I for one will never be happy and there is not a darn thing any of you can do about it.

#getoffmylawn


----------



## T4C Fantasy (Jan 30, 2020)

I'm happy, the GPU database kicks ass.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 30, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I know several of the guys that work here in person and tend to meet them at least once a year. You're entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are. The guys are well respected in the industry, regardless of your baseless slander.



Yeah.  I got to know names.  You could try asking.


----------



## R0H1T (Jan 30, 2020)

ScaLibBDP said:


> why a person would give money to somebody he/she really do Not know? Just ask that question to yourself.


I dunno, why do people support LTT, Hardware unboxed, Gamers Nexus, Jayz2c et al? People align themselves to whatever worldview they subscribe to & that's a fact.
Frankly it's a case of “*everyone is naked in this bathroom*” & that's all you should know, just that tubers get paid more for it.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jan 30, 2020)

ScaLibBDP said:


> The most important, does Not provide real names of all people which hold different positions at TPU on "Contact US" web-page.



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this one makes the least sense. Not only can you not really FORCE someone to give you any real credentials online; but sometimes the content you read can only be written with the anonymity. Some of my own works across the web are bias in this regard.

Not because I could get in any real legal consequences but because what I write for example may look bad to my employer, or maybe I simply don't want certain entities to know I do or know those things, so it is not expected or asked of me in a personal or professional setting.


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## NC37 (Jan 30, 2020)

No offense but the backing tiers look like something from almost a decade ago. Course I'm sure some will like seeing special icons or badges on their profiles but, I question how useful it will be at getting some funding. I don't see the incentive.

First point: Adblock does it for free anyways. Even if you impose anti adblock measures, it will likely backfire. I honestly will not visit sites that are locked behind anti blocker walls. Unless there is a pressing reason for me to lift a blocker (and I use 3 of them), I just don't see the reason. If things got so bad where everyone employed it, I'd just investigate ways to block their blockers and get around it. Advertisements are the #1 means of getting malware on PCs. Adblockers have reduced infection rate on my PCs to zero. If I want to find a product, I'll go looking myself.

If I'm this way, I know others are too.

Second point: Badges and titles are not enough. You'll reach a saturation point and then need to find some new methods. Building the TPU brand beyond what you've done so far should be more of the focus. I came from xlr8yourmac and TPU's design was friendly and welcoming because it was from the same era. However, since then TPU really has been slow to adopt new things. A good marketer could take it much further. Expanding TPU more into video and generating a real personality.

I'd like to see incentives for backing for a year. Something beyond, maybe even physical items. Look at how Star Citizen does funding for their community information shows. They give both incentives for the present and incentives for the future. What about partnering with a tech reseller to give a discount after 12 months of backing? TPU gets supported, the tech reseller gets increased business, and the backers get whatever they want at a discount. That is much more of an attractive offer to someone like me who would seriously consider it for the discount.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 30, 2020)

NC37 said:


> No offense but the backing tiers look like something from almost a decade ago. Course I'm sure some will like seeing special icons or badges on their profiles but, I question how useful it will be at getting some funding. I don't see the incentive.
> 
> First point: Adblock does it for free anyways. Even if you impose anti adblock measures, it will likely backfire. I honestly will not visit sites that are locked behind anti blocker walls. Unless there is a pressing reason for me to lift a blocker (and I use 3 of them), I just don't see the reason. If things got so bad where everyone employed it, I'd just investigate ways to block their blockers and get around it. Advertisements are the #1 means of getting malware on PCs. Adblockers have reduced infection rate on my PCs to zero. If I want to find a product, I'll go looking myself.
> 
> ...



I love this idea, as long as it's not a keysite that is...


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 30, 2020)

NC37 said:


> No offense but the backing tiers look like something from almost a decade ago. Course I'm sure some will like seeing special icons or badges on their profiles but, I question how useful it will be at getting some funding. I don't see the incentive.
> 
> First point: Adblock does it for free anyways. Even if you impose anti adblock measures, it will likely backfire. I honestly will not visit sites that are locked behind anti blocker walls. Unless there is a pressing reason for me to lift a blocker (and I use 3 of them), I just don't see the reason. If things got so bad where everyone employed it, I'd just investigate ways to block their blockers and get around it. Advertisements are the #1 means of getting malware on PCs. Adblockers have reduced infection rate on my PCs to zero. If I want to find a product, I'll go looking myself.
> 
> ...



You seem quite offended though.
The ads here are non obtrusive and I don't know what corners of the internet you hang out on if you were getting multiple viruses from ads.

As for videos, it was tried and failed. I'm personally not keen on videos as there's to much waffling and blablabla in most videos, just get to the point already. It might work for some sites, but I doubt most of the content creators here would want to do videos.

The other things you're suggesting aren't going to work either, as the readership here is global and the site isn't based in the US. Maybe you could set up an international tech reseller that we all can get discounts from?


----------



## trom89 (Jan 30, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> I like the idea. "Opinion" is covered by "Editorial" already. "Leak"/"Rumor" are effectively the same. I guess "Rumor" could be best option?



Exactly, this way you can still publish the rumors while reminding the reader and replyers that this information has a lot of "IF's" and nothing has being confirmed.

Another thing that can be tried is, before any of the articles being published those same articles should be reviewed by an "Editor-in-chief" preferably one with English as the first language before being submited

That person can then "fix" the spelling mistakes, change the text, remove the mentions (the GN drama could be avoided just by removing the name of the channel from the article) or even discard it all together if it was missing sources, shady information, etc.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jan 30, 2020)

I'd pay for a subscription if there were actually any interesting,investigative articles here,sort of like pcgh plus.




__





						PCGH-Plus
					

PCGH-Plus: Hier finden Sie kostenpflichtige Printartikel aus PCGH




					www.pcgameshardware.de
				




paying for badges and nicknames - please,stop.
tpu is pretty much all advertisements for upcoming products in the news section and standardized performance reviews (charts).
if it weren't for the gaming thread there'd be almost nothing interesting here.



trom89 said:


> the GN drama could be avoided just by removing the name of the channel from the article


the gist of the problem is really that tpu's senior news moderator takes conspiracy theories he gets from brand fanboys and publishes them with no verification.


----------



## 64K (Jan 30, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I'd pay for a subscription if there were actually any interesting,investigative articles here,sort of like pcgh plus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What about the reviews? You can take from TPU just what you think is worth reading. There are quite a few forums that I never read because I have no interest in the topic.


----------



## Frick (Jan 30, 2020)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> People being butthurt over that is ridiculous. There is legit 0 issue with it and ive been running on a key off one of those sites for both Windows 10 and Office 2019 with ZERO issues for over a year.
> 
> If you wanna pay out the ass for that software, be my guest. No one is stopping you.



They aren't actually legit though. Just because they activate doesn't mean you have a license to use them, which is what it's really about.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jan 30, 2020)

64K said:


> What about the reviews? You can take from TPU just what you think is worth reading. There are quite a few forums that I never read because I have no interest in the topic.


agreed.
a lot of them are good,just thanks to the sheer number they do.


----------



## laszlo (Jan 30, 2020)

Imouto said:


> - Revisit the methodology once a year or six months if you are bored.



seems your proposed methodology should be revisited very often ,maybe weekly, as gpu prices fluctuate unpredictably ; due this your proposed methodology will fail also 

back to topic who want to support will and who don't, won't

@W1zzard  in post #50 @damric  proposed  "ability to obtain/purchase old review samples " i'll go further by making a raffle ,only for patreons, of old reviewed hardware, if is allowed of-course


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 30, 2020)

laszlo said:


> a raffle ,only for patreons


I thought of that and like the idea, but Patreon's rules for that are "nothing with a random chance element". Maybe we could come up with some sort of alternative


----------



## Regeneration (Jan 30, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> I think there's some fundamental things that need to be addressed as far as news reporting before one decides to support the site.
> 
> Im talking about clickbait and 'sensationalist' articles and of course who could forget the hit peice on GamerNexus earlier in the year...
> 
> Do you know how badly that knocked TPUs reputation?



None at all if you ask me. Today is the first time I heard about that story.

I watched some Gamers Nexus videos prior to October 2019 to see if there is a base for those accusations... and that dude seems to show off Nvidia's products quite often.

Product placement or not, we can never know, its between private parties. And even so, its accepted form of advertisement, used a lot in movies.


----------



## basco (Jan 30, 2020)

I like TPU very much! Thanx Mr. Wizzard+Mods for keeping it up since a lot of years.
just wanted to say something positive.


----------



## Fahad (Jan 30, 2020)

Just sign a deal with Scroll like everyone else.









						Scroll makes hundreds of websites ad-free for $5 per month
					

It works on desktop, your phone, and inside many apps.




					www.theverge.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 30, 2020)

Imouto said:


> - $3000: Stop the clickbaiting and senseless rumors in the main site by firing btarunr.


People really need to let that crap go and quit holding a grudge. It was an honest mistake.



basco said:


> I like TPU very much! Thanx Mr. Wizzard+Mods for keeping it up since a lot of years.
> just wanted to say something positive.



I'll join you there. Everyone has their complaints and quibbles, but on the whole TPU is great place to read up on new advancements and industry news. It's also a great resource for learning, whether you're new to technology or a seasoned veteran of computing.

Oh and for the record, I have no problems with the Software "Key" sites. I've done the research and it's not illegal or shady. It's different from the way things once were. The world is changing and some people just don't understand that or know how to adapt.


----------



## Slizzo (Jan 30, 2020)

gamefoo21 said:


> Steve is a shill at times and is a rabid fanboy at times.
> 
> He does sensationalist articles/videos.
> He does click bait articles/videos.
> ...



He has stated, multiple times in many videos that he does not accept gifts nor any sort of compensation for his content (unless it's a paid advertiser spot. And in those cases he always makes sure that the advertiser does not compete in the same space as the product being reviewed). 
When he's beating around the bush about acquiring something, it's because he's protecting his source. He got some Ryzen processors early, but not from AMD. So he had to keep those people who provided the processors to him quiet in order to protect their seller partnership with AMD. Also stated clearly in his videos.
I don't see much "Diva" behavior, but that's on you.
He doesn't take cash directly from manufacturers unless it's a paid advert spot. When he's provided with samples he uses them for reviews.
Sensationalist articles and videos and click bait are all part and parcel of trying to get eyeballs on content. When he rants, it's usually very justified.



Regeneration said:


> None at all if you ask me. Today is the first time I heard about that story.
> 
> I watched some Gamers Nexus videos prior to October 2019 to see if there is a base for those accusations... and that dude seems to show off Nvidia's products quite often.
> 
> Product placement or not, we can never know, its between private parties. And even so, its accepted form of advertisement, used a lot in movies.



And of course he had a lot of videos on NVIDIA products in that time frame. NVIDIA was launching new product and all the vendors were providing samples for review. Have you never seen a product/news cycle before?





As for the actual OP here. @W1zzard , I know you state that the Patreon tier to remove ad content and gray market key seller ads is for people that dislike the gray market key sellers from appearing. I still can't condone them being here in the first place. Yes it's nice that you allow people to "not see it" by paying, but the fact remains that they are still advertising here, and that they are a blight (IMO) on the market.


----------



## dirtyferret (Jan 30, 2020)

Slizzo said:


> He has stated, multiple times in many videos that he does not accept gifts nor any sort of compensation for his content (unless it's a paid advertiser spot. And in those cases he always makes sure that the advertiser does not compete in the same space as the product being reviewed).
> When he's beating around the bush about acquiring something, it's because he's protecting his source. He got some Ryzen processors early, but not from AMD. So he had to keep those people who provided the processors to him quiet in order to protect their seller partnership with AMD. Also stated clearly in his videos.
> I don't see much "Diva" behavior, but that's on you.
> He doesn't take cash directly from manufacturers unless it's a paid advert spot. When he's provided with samples he uses them for reviews.
> Sensationalist articles and videos and click bait are all part and parcel of trying to get eyeballs on content. When he rants, it's usually very justified.



I agree with all your points but I find Steve to be a diva and his rants are his shtick.  I like reading Patrick's case reviews on GN and while I may not agree with Steve's CPU/GPU reviews all the time I do enjoy reading them and find them very thorough.  That said GN written reviews are becoming less and less and the last CPU written reviews I recall was done by Patrick not Steve.  Watching Steve play with his hair for 25 minutes while he goes on repetitive rant after rant and constantly changes thought mid sentence becomes tiresome.  Obviously the video review is their bread and butter, the results speak for themselves, but personally I wished they would put up a written review on the web site as well.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 30, 2020)

Slizzo said:


> As for the actual OP here. @W1zzard , I know you state that the Patreon tier to remove ad content and gray market key seller ads is for people that dislike the gray market key sellers from appearing. I still can't condone them being here in the first place.


But that is not ignorance on the part of W1zzard and TPU staff. Lots of people thought Steam and GOG were illegal because no physical disc was being supplied. It took years for people to get it into their heads that digital downloads are just as valid as a store bought copy. These software key sites are no different. It's just a new business model. It's perfectly legal.


----------



## gamefoo21 (Jan 30, 2020)

Slizzo said:


> He has stated, multiple times in many videos that he does not accept gifts nor any sort of compensation for his content (unless it's a paid advertiser spot. And in those cases he always makes sure that the advertiser does not compete in the same space as the product being reviewed).
> When he's beating around the bush about acquiring something, it's because he's protecting his source. He got some Ryzen processors early, but not from AMD. So he had to keep those people who provided the processors to him quiet in order to protect their seller partnership with AMD. Also stated clearly in his videos.
> I don't see much "Diva" behavior, but that's on you.
> He doesn't take cash directly from manufacturers unless it's a paid advert spot. When he's provided with samples he uses them for reviews.
> Sensationalist articles and videos and click bait are all part and parcel of trying to get eyeballs on content. When he rants, it's usually very justified.



You do know he has to negotiate directly with those companies whom he places ads for in his videos. Depending on how they feel about him, the money paid for those highlights can go up, down, or even stop.

Sorry, I should have said products in return for loose agreements around maybe you can review these at some point in time or feature them. Not a gift then right?

As for 'Divo' behavior, look at anything that might impinge on his image. The most recent is his ranting outburst video about the 5600XT where he can't even keep the performance delta straight... He flip flops from saying it's from the original 5600XT bios to the 5700 and back again, using the same number. Towards the end he even says that his biggest or one of the issues is that people might blame him.

I'm sorry but protecting his source of long since available Quadros makes no sense.

I was fine with him shitting on the Radeon VII because it's not a n amazing gaming card, but it's the king of compute performance per dollar. I could fit six of them in a TR40 motherboard, watercool them all, add a bloody chiller, and still pay less than a single headless V100.

Why you ask... Well he didn't care about workstation or compute performance until he 'aquired' 2 V100 cards, worth $20K USD. Then he makes a big song and dance about the 2060 KO being so much faster at workstation tasks...

Yeah... Then he has nothing but NV in his personal boxes... He's human he's got bias built in, but there are things he does that doesn't leave him beyond reproach or skepticism.

Like I won't use him as a sole source for thermal paste wisdom. I do watch his videos for the year down parts and his news videos are a handy congregation of news stories, some of them I miss.

Steve knows his stuff, but I view him as a source of information, to be taken as part of several sources.

If he buys those samples from 'protected' sources, then he just has to say so. If he's given it for the review or to feature in a video series he should declare it. He should declare everything, every time, not rely on well I declared it once in a video ages ago.

Yeah, I still chuckle about how he had a X299 Gigabyte motherboard ad when he was reviewing AMD that was thumping the Intel CPUs that go in that motherboard... LoL


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jan 30, 2020)

Frick said:


> They aren't actually legit though. Just because they activate doesn't mean you have a license to use them, which is what it's really about.


My office key is tied to my Microsoft account. If Microsoft didn't like the key I'm sure they would have deactivated it by now


----------



## notb (Jan 31, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> But that is not ignorance on the part of W1zzard and TPU staff. Lots of people thought Steam and GOG were illegal because no physical disc was being supplied. It took years for people to get it into their heads that digital downloads are just as valid as a store bought copy. These software key sites are no different. It's just a new business model. It's perfectly legal.


So why are these keys so much cheaper than what MS offers on their website? How much is MS making on each one? 

And when will you finally post your sources? We would like to admire all the great research you've done. 


CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> My office key is tied to my Microsoft account. If Microsoft didn't like the key I'm sure they would have deactivated it by now


Keys are fine. License is not. That's the point.
Microsoft has no easy and sensible way to check if you're eligible to use a particular key. That's a disadvantage of offering bulk licenses to schools and institutions.


----------



## T4C Fantasy (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> So why are these keys so much cheaper than what MS offers on their website? How much is MS making on each one?
> 
> And when will you finally post your sources? We would like to admire all the great research you've done.
> 
> ...



If it was illegal I think Microsoft would say something about it... TPU is like the 3rd or 4th most popular tech site on the internet.. TPU wouldn't get away with illegal activities.

I don't know how any of it works but I would assume it's not illegal at all.


----------



## notb (Jan 31, 2020)

T4C Fantasy said:


> TPU is like the 3rd or 4th most popular tech site on the internet.. TPU wouldn't get away with illegal activities.


What...?


----------



## T4C Fantasy (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> What...?


Alexa ranks us above linustechtips, anantech, guru3d, gamersnexus.. by A LOT and everyone else besides tomshardware and pcpartpicker


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> What...?


Surprise Sucka! LOL!



T4C Fantasy said:


> Alexa ranks us above linustechtips, anantech, guru3d, gamersnexus.. by A LOT and everyone else besides tomshardware and pcpartpicker


I had to look that up. I didn't realize just how popular TPU is. That's very cool! Not surprising really, just didn't know.


----------



## notb (Jan 31, 2020)

T4C Fantasy said:


> Alexa ranks us above linustechtips, anantech, guru3d, gamersnexus.. by A LOT and everyone else besides tomshardware and pcpartpicker


PC enthusiasts' sites != "tech"
But yes, in this niche TPU is around top 3. Which wasn't enough to get a 3950X for testing.


----------



## Regeneration (Jan 31, 2020)

Slizzo said:


> He has stated, multiple times in many videos that he does not accept gifts nor any sort of compensation for his content (unless it's a paid advertiser spot. And in those cases he always makes sure that the advertiser does not compete in the same space as the product being reviewed).
> When he's beating around the bush about acquiring something, it's because he's protecting his source. He got some Ryzen processors early, but not from AMD. So he had to keep those people who provided the processors to him quiet in order to protect their seller partnership with AMD. Also stated clearly in his videos.
> I don't see much "Diva" behavior, but that's on you.
> He doesn't take cash directly from manufacturers unless it's a paid advert spot. When he's provided with samples he uses them for reviews.
> ...



Don't know the person, but it sounds rubbish, there are no saints in the western world. A man gotta eat.

Production of hardware YouTube show requires resources and manpower.

Reviews must be published after the product launch (and not too late) to remain competitive with the other sites. He must get review samples from the vendors.

Google AdSense doesn't pay enough for this caliber. Most people use ad-blockers these days.










He probably does accept gifts and other forms of compensation and there is no problem with it as long as the reporting remains natural.


----------



## laszlo (Jan 31, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh and for the record, I have no problems with the Software "Key" sites. I've done the research and it's not illegal or shady. It's different from the way things once were. The world is changing and some people just don't understand that or know how to adapt.



is a grey market selling good keys which they don't own; a lot of companies buy thousand of keys with multiple activation and why not selling a few for own benefit...



CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> My office key is tied to my Microsoft account. If Microsoft didn't like the key I'm sure they would have deactivated it by now



Microsoft like it because they sold it already so they had no problem activating it; however you may have problems in case real owner will announce Microsoft that your key was lost(stolen) and than guess what ? 



notb said:


> So why are these keys so much cheaper than what MS offers on their website? How much is MS making on each one?
> 
> And when will you finally post your sources? We would like to admire all the great research you've done.
> 
> ...



are cheaper because the it guy from a big company "borrowed" a few ones... i'm sure you understand...

correct keys are fine but licensing not; they don't check who is activating it as are sold and expect them to be activated but it may come a day when my above post will affect the buyer..



T4C Fantasy said:


> If it was illegal I think Microsoft would say something about it... TPU is like the 3rd or 4th most popular tech site on the internet.. TPU wouldn't get away with illegal activities.
> 
> I don't know how any of it works but I would assume it's not illegal at all.



Is a shady business and in court for sure will be declared as illegal ; none of these sellers are *authorized* by Microsoft,this is the point

we had a thread about this and i made more digging...for example scdkey , cdkoffers seems to belong to *AMZGAME CO.,LTD* , a UK based company; they had a lot of sites not only the key selling ones...

so these two above mentioned sites provide the same owner located *14 WELLS VIEW DRIVE LONDON UNITED KINGDOM BRJZ 9UL* ; i didn't found the company at that address but the uk gov. has the *AMZGAME CO.,LTD *as registered under no.*09703095* at *Unit G25 Waterfront Studios, 1 Dock Road, London, United Kingdom, E16 1AH* :






						AMZGAME CO., LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
					

AMZGAME CO., LTD - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity




					beta.companieshouse.gov.uk
				




here we can see the company will be dissolved latest on 03.02.2020 as applied to strike off from registry; on filling history we can see who the owner is and also that company was declared as  "dormant" ; dormant is good as they're excepted from taxes; is interesting how can dormant company can keep so many sites and sell....i'm sure is legal...now they're milking the cow on last days and vanish but sure will re-appear under other name but again dormant....


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 31, 2020)

laszlo said:


> we had a thread about this and i made more digging...for example scdkey , cdkoffers seems to belong to *AMZGAME CO.,LTD*











						Whois scdkey.com
					

Whois Lookup for scdkey.com




					www.whois.com
				











						Whois cdkoffers.com
					

Whois Lookup for cdkoffers.com




					www.whois.com
				




You were saying?


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 31, 2020)

T4C Fantasy said:


> Alexa ranks us above linustechtips, anantech, guru3d, gamersnexus.. by A LOT and everyone else besides tomshardware and pcpartpicker


Which is why I asked if this site is monetized properly. I know how much we make and were not maximized... and if this site is several times bigger...


So, what is this additional money going to be used for? Was that ever answered? I think you may get more volunteers knowing specifically what this is going for as compared to the 'perks' that wont push people over the edge.


----------



## laszlo (Jan 31, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Whois scdkey.com
> 
> 
> Whois Lookup for scdkey.com
> ...



i know what i'm saying, you?  since when a domain shall be owned by same company who use it?


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 31, 2020)

laszlo said:


> is a grey market selling good keys which they don't own; a lot of companies buy thousand of keys with multiple activation and why not selling a few for own benefit...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, you clearly have no idea how software licensing works these days.
These keys are legit, as Microsoft sells more affordable software keys in certain regions, so what you're paying is most likely full price or more.
However, said keys are technically not supposed to be used outside of those markets, i.e. China, Indian, Indonesia etc. so if someone in the west buys one of these keys, they're being naughty, but have not committed some kind of crime and haven't done anything illegal.
Just have a look here, as a great example of this policy from Steam. They charge a wide range of price for the same game, depending on where people live.


			https://steamdb.info/app/582010/
		

Someone in Russia or Brazil pays a lot less than someone in Switzerland or Israel for that game. Although, weirdly enough it's really expensive in India.
Take another game.


			https://steamdb.info/app/292030/
		

And Argentina and Turkey gets the best deal, with Japan and New Zealand paying the most.
Seriously, you and your friends bitching about this needs to get out more...



EarthDog said:


> Which is why I asked if this site is monetized properly. I know how much we make and were not maximized... and if this site is several times bigger...
> 
> 
> So, what is this additional money going to be used for? Was that ever answered? I think you may get more volunteers knowing specifically what this is going for as compared to the 'perks' that wont push people over the edge.


They are currently looking for more staff, so that might be one thing.


----------



## notb (Jan 31, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Dude, you clearly have no idea how software licensing works these days.


You should be more careful with statements like that...


> These keys are legit, as Microsoft sells more affordable software keys in certain regions, so what you're paying is most likely full price or more.


This is false. But what better way to defend your theory than showing us a proper Indian store (Microsoft Partner) selling Windows 10 for ~$15? . 

And as you look for them (good luck), here's the official MS Store India:








						Compare Windows 10 Home vs Pro | Microsoft Windows
					

Get reassurance on which Windows 10 version to buy. Compare Windows 10 Home vs. Pro with Microsoft’s comprehensive checklist and feel confident in your choice!




					www.microsoft.com
				



10000 INR ~= 140 USD


> However, said keys are technically not supposed to be used outside of those markets, i.e. China, Indian, Indonesia etc.


So if someone living outside of said markets buys them, is it against the license or not? It's good to have a software licensing expert on board. 


> Seriously, you need to get out more...


Seriously, just show us the licensing agreement for these keys and it'll end this argument (one way or another).


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 31, 2020)

laszlo said:


> i know what i'm saying, you?  since when a domain shall be owned by same company who use it?


Maybe you need to look a little closer...


----------



## 64K (Jan 31, 2020)

When W1zzard started the Patreon thing back in March of last year he left a post on that site that some of the funds would be used to buy hardware for reviews when samples weren't sent to tech sites.

This key reselling thing doesn't bother me but I don't buy from key resellers. If most of the keys are intended to go to schools for free then MS has already either wrote the expense off or accounted it to growing Win 10 use. The only thing that I can see is people buying these keys from key resellers aren't breaking the law necessarily they are just using the keys in a way that MS didn't intend them for.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> So if someone living outside of said markets buys them, is it against the license or not?


Not. The reason? Ultimately it is not relevant where a piece of software is purchased or even where it is used. It only matters that it was lawfully paid for. Software makers have learned that it is better to sell a legit discounted item and make some money, than to hardball everyone and watch those same people pirate said item. As a result, software vendors continue to exist with the blessing of the software makers.


----------



## notb (Jan 31, 2020)

64K said:


> This key reselling thing doesn't bother me but I don't buy from key resellers.


But, clearly, it bothers some forum members.

Instead, TPU staff *blocks comments under key advertisements *and *ignores discussions* happening in other threads (I assume it's a policy rather than a coincidence).
So this is more about having a dialog and taking care of the community that generates "clicks" and is asked to donate - not about the particular issue at hand (which is sad as well).


> If most of the keys are intended to go to schools for free then MS has already either wrote the expense off or accounted it to growing Win 10 use.


Absolutely not. MS is selling bulk licenses to institutions and companies. Sometimes they are very cheap. But it's a known user group.
It's software. There's no "writing off". There's no inventory and nothing is wasted.

Yes, it may happen that Intel sells 100 Windows copies to a school for pennies.
If 80 of them are then sold to private customers, they lose 80*$140. Simple as that.


----------



## laszlo (Jan 31, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Maybe you need to look a little closer...



at both mentioned sites go to "About us" :

*Contact Us*

Email：*service@cdkoffers.com* (Support Requests, 24/7 Service)

Company name: *AMZGAME CO.,LTD*

Address: *14 WELLS VIEW DRIVE LONDON UNITED KINGDOM BRJZ 9UL*

Phone: *58525622*

Email: *service@cdkoffers.com*


a company can buy,loan a domain so i don't really get your point...


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> You should be more careful with statements like that...
> 
> This is false. But what better way to defend your theory than showing us a proper Indian store (Microsoft Partner) selling Windows 10 for ~$15? .
> 
> ...



Retail vs. OEM license?  
These are still OEM licenses. Legally, OEM licenses should only be sold alongside a system, or at a minimum, a CPU, motherboard or hard drive.
Anyone can clearly buy and use a retail license. The idea with these types of licenses is that they're meant for specific markets.
You can still buy an OEM license anywhere in the world, just not as cheap and then you have right to use that with the system it was intended for according the license agreement.
I can find licenses for $10 locally online here too, or $250 if I want a retail packaged Windows 10 Pro.
Note that what these sites resell, are not bulk licenses, as they work differently.


----------



## 64K (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> But, clearly, it bothers some forum members.
> 
> Instead, TPU staff *blocks comments under key advertisements *and *ignores discussions* happening in other threads (I assume it's a policy rather than a coincidence).
> So this is more about having a dialog and taking care of the community that generates "clicks" and is asked to donate - not about the particular issue at hand (which is sad as well).



I assume the key reseller ads are blocked from comments because there was already a thread in the comments & feedback section that is 14 pages long and the staff don't want to rehash everything over and over again under every key reseller ad. Pretty much everything that could be said about the key reseller ads has already been said over and over on this thread:









						So... advertising CD Key sites
					

TPU are now pedaling/supporting/advertising grey market warez now??    Im not mad, but i thought advertising or talking about grey market keys werent allowed on TPU???




					www.techpowerup.com


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## EarthDog (Jan 31, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> OEM licenses should only be sold alongside a system


Therein lay the rub, yes?


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 31, 2020)

notb said:


> But, clearly, it bothers some forum members.


It's not the forum members business to tell TPU how to conduct it's own business. We're not talking about forum members being mistreated or forum rules being abused. We're talking about a business sponsorship deal that generates income.

So you, Laszlo and everyone else who has a problem with it just needs to shut up about the subject. It's none of our business and as 64K just pointed out, it's been debated to death already. Quit special-snowflaking and let it go.


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 31, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Therein lay the rub, yes?


Possibly, but should and being strictly enforced are two different things, no?
Could Microsoft send the police around to close down a shop that sold OEM licenses without a CPU? I doubt it and I doubt they could even take them to court over it.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 31, 2020)

Actually, OEM copies of Windows can and are sold without hardware. The catch is it can not be REsold(ownership transfer) without hardware.

But I digress as we're steering away from the topic..


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## TheLostSwede (Jan 31, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Actually, OEM copies of Windows can and are sold without hardware. The catch is it can not be REsold(ownership transfer) without hardware.
> 
> But I digress as we're steering away from the topic..


Right, that might have changed then or might be different between countries/regions. I know for a fact that a lot of shops wouldn't sell an OEM copy of Windows without hardware.


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## T4C Fantasy (Jan 31, 2020)

I think all patreon funds will go to buying hardware for reviews not provided for us. This is a win/win.

I don't care about the morals and ethics of selling cheap cdkeys.


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## laszlo (Jan 31, 2020)

T4C Fantasy said:


> I think all patreon funds will go to buying hardware for reviews not provided for us. This is a win/win.
> 
> I don't care about the morals and ethics of selling cheap cdkeys.


yes u maybe right but there is a "but" always you know

i'm really considering to be a future patreon; i aged along with tpu i may say; when i joined was 35 and now 50; i admit that back than i wasn't so full of morals&ethics like now...more full of sht ,anyway i don't really feel comfortable seeing those sites advertised on tpu- a site which make unbiased reviews( following moral&ethics no?) watched & followed by  hundreds of thousands of people, as these two don't really match and make questionable everything

a quote from Larry Noble.... : "As a fund-raising strategy, it makes sense. As a matter of ethics, it looks terrible."


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## Arjai (Jan 31, 2020)

I am Patreon member here from the first wave. I had/ have no second thoughts about it. I do not make a lot of money. But the amount of information and learning I have gleaned from these Forums, is worth it to me. Over the year's, I have had the pleasure of conversing with people with specific knowledge of things I did not have a clue about, and coming out the other side of it much more clued in.

I spent nearly 2 years reading post's here, and learned enough to not only build a computer, but to then mod it and overclock it to 1GHz! (Socket A days). When I joined up, and started Crunching on the WCG team here, my new teammates scrounged around and built me a dual core AM2 box, to up my points! 

I did some folding with a GPU , for TPU's team, that was sold to me for pennies on the dollar. Until that GPU was to old for folding, I was a regular on the Daily TOP 10.

TPU is still the best site on the Planet, despite the crap that people complain about. 

I blame @W1zzard for all of it!!


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## ur6beersaway (Feb 1, 2020)

Nice, forgive me it it has been addressed but is there a yearly option, say buy 11 months & get the 12th free.. I would enjoy a annual deal.
month to month seems silly to me. No refunds when I rage quit...lol...


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Feb 1, 2020)

laszlo said:


> Microsoft like it because they sold it already so they had no problem activating it; however you may have problems in case real owner will announce Microsoft that your key was lost(stolen) and than guess what ?


It's not going to happen.



laszlo said:


> a quote from Larry Noble.... : "As a fund-raising strategy, it makes sense. As a matter of ethics, it looks terrible."


I say "who gives a shit so long as it benefits me and no blood is being spilt."


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## lemonadesoda (Feb 1, 2020)

I understand TPU needs to do two things: 1. continue to fund itself in the future; staff, home offices, servers, etc., esp if there are new positions that need to be staffed, and good people cost money, 2. Provide a return on investment to the W1zz and other investors if any. However, the culture of TPU has now cracked, like Animal Farm, all members are equal, except some members are more equal than others. There is now a tiered level of in-the-club and not-in-the-club. I think that is a strategic mistake, and will raise a little cash in the short term, but is the gong of death to the huge spirit and goodwill at TPU that makes it a special place.  There are other ways to raise funds, and even keep patreon, without creating this in- and out- club. Watch. People that find TPU as part of a Google search on a specific review or topic wont stay, some frequent and older members will pay a while to support, but not in perpetuity, others will drift away, and if the active discussions in the forum end up behind a paywall, then the open forums will die a little. Active members will NOT start posting more content, to maintain an equal presence on both sides of the paywall, and therefore there is a risk of less activity in the forums and review discussions that are the LIFE of TPU.

Rethink.


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## EarthDog (Feb 1, 2020)

T4C Fantasy said:


> I think all patreon funds will go to buying hardware for reviews not provided for us. This is a win/win.


If that is true (is it?), how many samples is that really for a huge site like this who can get nearly everything they want? I'd rather it go into an Editor looking over and improving existing content than to see more things. Raise the level, then expand. 



lemonadesoda said:


> I understand TPU needs to do two things: 1. continue to fund itself in the future; staff, home offices, servers, etc., esp if there are new positions that need to be staffed, and good people cost money, 2. Provide a return on investment to the W1zz and other investors if any. However, the culture of TPU has now cracked, like Animal Farm, all members are equal, except some members are more equal than others. There is now a tiered level of in-the-club and not-in-the-club. I think that is a strategic mistake, and will raise a little cash in the short term, but is the gong of death to the huge spirit and goodwill at TPU that makes it a special place.  There are other ways to raise funds, and even keep patreon, without creating this in- and out- club. Watch. People that find TPU as part of a Google search on a specific review or topic wont stay, some frequent and older members will pay a while to support, but not in perpetuity, others will drift away, and if the active discussions in the forum end up behind a paywall, then the open forums will die a little. Active members will NOT start posting more content, to maintain an equal presence on both sides of the paywall, and therefore there is a risk of less activity in the forums and review discussions that are the LIFE of TPU.
> 
> Rethink.


I think you are really off on this, honestly. People could give two hoots about a silly 'supporter badge' or the MEH (to me) benefits it brings. The paywall you describe is a crack in the sidewalk...very little difference from one side to the other. I dont see much dinero coming in from this either, but disagree this will cause a divide among members. Most wont give a damn, honestly. This will come and go with a few more yellow badges but still the same forum environment (whatever you may deem it as).


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## T4C Fantasy (Feb 1, 2020)

People are for the most part blowing this out of proportion. 

Every site has it's issues.. TPU is in no danger of having a broken community, you will find hate when looking for it.. it's a tech/enthusiast site you will have fanboys and trolls.. you want a disaster look at videocardz comment sections..

I love it here, I work on the GPU database by myself and by choice.. I work best when I know everything with no worries of changes I didn't do. 

The news is fine people complain too much it's ridiculous, I read the rumors and satire, clickbait is just how things work and I'm sucked in Everytime.. I don't care.

Cheap cdkeys illegal or not I just don't care.

The mods, news team and editors don't let the site die.. give them credit.. they deserve it.. it's incredible how much they care even when paid..

W1zzard is a genius programmer and nice guy. I do miss the booth babes though.


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## TheLostSwede (Feb 1, 2020)

lemonadesoda said:


> I understand TPU needs to do two things: 1. continue to fund itself in the future; staff, home offices, servers, etc., esp if there are new positions that need to be staffed, and good people cost money, 2. Provide a return on investment to the W1zz and other investors if any. However, the culture of TPU has now cracked, like Animal Farm, all members are equal, except some members are more equal than others. There is now a tiered level of in-the-club and not-in-the-club. I think that is a strategic mistake, and will raise a little cash in the short term, but is the gong of death to the huge spirit and goodwill at TPU that makes it a special place.  There are other ways to raise funds, and even keep patreon, without creating this in- and out- club. Watch. People that find TPU as part of a Google search on a specific review or topic wont stay, some frequent and older members will pay a while to support, but not in perpetuity, others will drift away, and if the active discussions in the forum end up behind a paywall, then the open forums will die a little. Active members will NOT start posting more content, to maintain an equal presence on both sides of the paywall, and therefore there is a risk of less activity in the forums and review discussions that are the LIFE of TPU.
> 
> Rethink.



Sorry, but I think you've read something more into this than it is. My understanding is that the Patreon forum is simply a sub-forum where the Paterons (?) can talk more directly to the staff at TPU about things. Nothing else is going to change on the forums.



T4C Fantasy said:


> Every site has it's issues.. TPU is in no danger of having a broken community, you will find hate when looking for it.. it's a tech/enthusiast site you will have fanboys and trolls.. you want a disaster look at videocardz comment sections..



You forgot WCCFTech...


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 1, 2020)

T4C Fantasy said:


> I do miss the booth babes though.


Yeah, He hasn't done that in years! 2010 was the last time I remember.. Ah good times..


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## hat (Feb 1, 2020)

Hmm... support the site, or don't. W1zzard has made it abundantly clear the site is in no danger... unless you don't believe him... people have been asking for a while if there was a way they could donate to TPU, well here it is. Treat it as such, a donation, not payment for services.


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## 64K (Feb 1, 2020)

The Patreon Forum hardly ever gets used. It's not an incentive for me. Maybe that will change as more people become supporters and want to use that forum.
Having ads removed for me isn't an incentive because the ads were few and not intrusive at all anyway.
I don't get special treatment from the mods. It's not an incentive for me.
I don't really care about the Supporter bar in my avatar box. That's not an incentive for me.
I get a little earlier access to some reviews but that's not really an incentive for me.
What I do get by being a Supporter, and why I started it back in March, is that I get satisfaction from knowing that I'm doing my part to support my favorite tech site.
For members saying that we support this site to be put in a special class separated from the rest is a bit insulting tbh. It's akin to my fellow gamers on a gaming site that I visit calling me a sellout because I buy my games and I don't just pirate them.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 1, 2020)

64K said:


> The Patreon Forum hardly ever gets used. It's not an incentive for me. Maybe that will change as more people become supporters and want to use that forum.
> Having ads removed for me isn't an incentive because the ads were few and not intrusive at all anyway.
> I don't get special treatment from the mods. It's not an incentive for me.
> I don't really care about the Supporter bar in my avatar box. That's not an incentive for me.
> ...


You nailed it! The only reason I became a patron was to give support to the site.  No special treatement is received and I wasn’t even aware I had any real incentives other than being able to read reviews as one single page.  

Support is all the reward I get or want. It’s the same reason I patron a very talented up and coming music artist on youtube.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 2, 2020)

In any case, I have a few more social experiments to run and I'll make up my mind.

I would sign up in an instant if we could get feature to whitelist members who are allowed to comment on YOUR posts.  That way you don't have to sift through 90% of dangerous advice to find the useful 10%.



lexluthermiester said:


> It's perfectly legal.



Perfectly legal doesn't address moral issues that people have.  Consider abortion. Perfectly legal.  However, massive variation in moral view points.



lexluthermiester said:


> Actually, OEM copies of Windows can and are sold without hardware. The catch is it can not be REsold(ownership transfer) without hardware.
> 
> But I digress as we're steering away from the topic..



Sounds like what key reseller sites do...


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## Kinestron (Feb 2, 2020)

Signed up and sent DM in Patreon.


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## Thefumigator (Feb 2, 2020)

I think I'm in soon!
I Love TPU. I would love some merchandising too.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 2, 2020)

Thefumigator said:


> I would love some merchandising too.


I have to agree with this, TPU TShirts would be excellent!


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## T4C Fantasy (Feb 2, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> I have to agree with this, TPU TShirts would be excellent!


I want a tpu shirt that has a GPU, cpu and Mobo on it


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## EarthDog (Feb 2, 2020)

In on the merch too!


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## Thefumigator (Feb 2, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> I have to agree with this, TPU TShirts would be excellent!


Yes! we had some great graphic designers in the forums, where are they?

I would like TPU logo in a plush. We have to choose a TPU mascot


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 2, 2020)

I was thinking, TPU should offer TShirts on the main site page. I would get a few.


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## W1zzard (Feb 2, 2020)

Thefumigator said:


> merchandising


I like the idea. Any volunteers to take over such a project?


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 2, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> I like the idea. Any volunteers to take over such a project?


Oh, that's a good point, TPU would need someone to take the responsibility to set it all up...


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## crazyeyesreaper (Feb 2, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh, that's a good point, TPU would need someone to take the responsibility to set it all up...


We did have some Merch in the past with TheMailman having done designs and stuff but hes properly employeed these days and no longer trolls the forums.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 2, 2020)

For giggles looked up costs from a site I recently used.
@W1zzard I "borrowed" the TPU site logo only to create an example. Hope you don't mind.


Front


Back


Cost for Front or Back only.


Cost for print on Front and Back.

This is of course just an example.


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## R-T-B (Feb 2, 2020)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> My office key is tied to my Microsoft account. If Microsoft didn't like the key I'm sure they would have deactivated it by now



Try telling them.



TheLostSwede said:


> These keys are legit, as Microsoft sells more affordable software keys in certain regions,



Which is why buying them in your region is decidedly not legit.



crazyeyesreaper said:


> We did have some Merch in the past with TheMailman having done designs and stuff but hes properly employeed these days and no longer trolls the forums.



How...  unexpected.  And boring.  Seems the man gets to us all eventually.



lexluthermiester said:


> Surprise Sucka! LOL!
> 
> 
> I had to look that up. I didn't realize just how popular TPU is. That's very cool! Not surprising really, just didn't know.



Darn.  I wonder if Alexa knows how much we despise her...


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## lemonadesoda (Feb 3, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> Merchandising. I like the idea. Any volunteers to take over such a project?


Meghan sparkle Markle


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## Hayder_Master (Feb 3, 2020)

very nice idea, Its optional and anyone who want support can took part.


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## Thefumigator (Feb 3, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> For giggles looked up costs from a site I recently used.
> @W1zzard I "borrowed" the TPU site logo only to create an example. Hope you don't mind.
> This is of course just an example.



Wow, do they really have an embroided option? that's even cooler!


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2020)

Thefumigator said:


> Wow, do they really have an embroided option? that's even cooler!


They do which is very cool, but it's pricey!


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## Antykain (Feb 5, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> I have to agree with this, TPU TShirts would be excellent!



YES!  I'd get one..  or 2 even!    

Size: Large
Shirt Color: Black

Thanks!  I'll be by later to pick it up..


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## Splinterdog (Feb 5, 2020)

Over the years I must have signed up to hundreds of forums but only ever return to a handful. TPU is one of those, mainly for the wide-ranging and friendly forum but also for the news and articles, which, on the whole, are very well written.
I also write for another tech site, run my own forum and the biggest challenge is attracting members and readers, and keeping their attention. TPU succeeds in spades, in my opinion, so I'm only too happy to chip in for what is, after all, a free service.


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## robert3892 (Feb 7, 2020)

I think you should also have a mechanism in place for 1 time donations. Some people can't provide 4 dollars a month.


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## fullinfusion (Feb 7, 2020)

sorry for being a Debby downer, but an ex employee told me what this site makes a month.. I'll give to a charity that actually needs it.

Love the site so don't get me wrong, but they isn't starving like some ppl


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## Platinum certified Husky (Feb 7, 2020)

People who get salty with benchmark and GPU reviews are hilarious. If you don't understand how benchmark works and think those data useless, how about stop showing your ignorance?
The same goes for tier list, it is not useless just because you don't understand and refuse to learn.
hurr durr BeNcHmArK ArE UsElEsS!!!!111!1 MuH MiD-ReNgE GPU Is ThE BeSt BeCaUsE IT RuNs MeDiUm SeTtINg FiNe!!!111!!!1
Just stop.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 7, 2020)

fullinfusion said:


> sorry for being a Debby downer, but an ex employee told me what this site makes a month.. I'll give to a charity that actually needs it.
> 
> Love the site so don't get me wrong, but they isn't starving like some ppl


Everybody that is in business, especially self-employed small business owners like W1zzard “need” it.  Running what is effectively a small business is a precarious endeavor.  Anyone that has run a business is well aware of this.


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## Splinterdog (Feb 7, 2020)

fullinfusion said:


> sorry for being a Debby downer, but an ex employee told me what this site makes a month.. I'll give to a charity that actually needs it.
> 
> Love the site so don't get me wrong, but they isn't starving like some ppl


Everyone has to make their own choices, however, keeping an online business ahead of the game is no easy feat nowadays since it's a very crowded place. One has to work twice as hard to even get noticed on the Internet.
Unless of course you're a pouting, preening celeb on Instagram or YouTube.


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## Ikaruga (Feb 9, 2020)

I'm missing the ads, is there a way to turn them back on?


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## W1zzard (Feb 9, 2020)

Ikaruga said:


> I'm missing the ads, is there a way to turn them back on?


If you want I can turn them back on for your account


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## Ikaruga (Feb 9, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> If you want I can turn them back on for your account


Yes please, thank you very much. 
It's a two way thing: it learns what I like, and I also used to click on some links to support TPU (when I saw something interesting). I can always block them on my end when I want to.


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## W1zzard (Feb 10, 2020)

Ikaruga said:


> Yes please, thank you very much.


done


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## Ikaruga (Feb 10, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> done


Thank you sir!


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## WarthogARJ (Feb 17, 2020)

I'm pretty new to this site, and I see no problem with having the potential of paying for a subscription.
Except that I'm not sure it's a good idea to cut-out the advertisers to subscribers, except perhaps to the very top tier.
Because you might find it harder to get advertising revenue then, and then you'll have to cut back on what you do.
Which is bad for everyone.
Like no more business jet for Wizzard....:-}

If I paid an optional subscription, I'd like to get some value for it: not just not having to see silly ads.
Maybe a chance to vote on , or suggest some specific items, where other subscribers voted.
But then they'd be open to everyone.

I don't see the ads as very annoying on TPU, say compared to Tom's Hardware.
And I really like the overall organisation in TPU: the general professionalism of it.

I think the people who are uneasy about the idea of a subscription are forgetting about the history of journalism.

Go back to when everything was print format, and the business model ranged from 100% supported by industry, as a sort of mouthpiece for it, to the other extreme of 100% subscription based.
And in between, you'd have some degree of advertising revenue: ranging from a small fraction to a very large one.
In addition, some were run at a loss by the publisher for various reasons: political, altruistic or perhaps as a loss leader to their other concerns.

All this changed with electronic media, and a lot of the older journals have gun belly up.
Although a lot of new ones sprang up: some good, some mediocre, and some really bad.

And because it's very hard to collect from the readers for them, so a lot have gone onto getting a very large fraction from advertising.
And I think that's really hurt the clout of journals.

Look at the NY Times.
It went from print format, to both print and digital.
And it hasn't been an easy time, but it just passed 5 million paid subscribers now, with over 85% of them digital.
Out of $191 million advertising revenue, $103 million as digital.
With $264 million revenue from digital subscriptions.
And its newsroom staff is now at 1,600 people: the highest in history.

I think it's a good journal, and I don't object to paying $125/year to read it on-line.

The Economist is at 1.7million paid readers, of which 870k is print.
59% of revenue was from subscription.
It costs more though: $200/year for digital and print combined.

But now you've got some clown putting a homemade video on YouTube, and telling you whatever they want to, and the more successful ones do it for $$$$.
A LOT of $$$ in some cases.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Youtube.
And I'm not against someone making money from what they spend time on if they're good at it.

Anyways, Mr. Wizzard and Co, keep up the good work.

Alan Jarvis
Sheffield


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