# MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?



## btarunr (Apr 15, 2019)

Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI want you to buy a new motherboard every two generations of processor for no sound reason at all. MSI is reportedly blocking support for 3rd generation Ryzen "Matisse" processors on its AMD 300-series chipset motherboards, including those based on high-end AMD X370 and OC-capable B350 chipsets. This would also put those who own $300 motherboards such as the X370 XPower out of luck. To recap, AMD announced on numerous occasions that it doesn't want to be a greedy clique like its competitor, by forcing motherboard upgrades and promised that socket AM4 motherboards will be backwards and forwards compatible with at least four generations of Ryzen processors, running all the way up to 2020. 

This normally should mean that any 300-series motherboard must support 4th generation Ryzen processors with a simple BIOS update. Most 300-series motherboards, including from MSI, even ship with USB BIOS Flashback feature to help with forwards compatibility. Unfortunately, motherboard companies such as MSI care more about their bottom-lines than the consumer. In a support e-mail to an X370 XPower Titanium owner, MSI confirmed that it will not extend Zen 2 support to AMD 300-series. Other motherboard vendors could follow MSI's suit as a representative of another motherboard vendor, on condition of anonymity, told TechPowerUp that "Zen 2" processors have steeper electrical requirements that 300-series motherboards don't meet. This is an excuse similar to the one Intel gave for the planned obsolescence of its 100-series and 200-series chipsets, even as it was repeatedly proven that those motherboards can run and overclock 9th generation processors with custom firmware just fine. Would MSI care to explain whether a B450M PRO-M2 has a stronger VRM than an X370 XPower Titanium to warrant "Zen 2" support? Will all "Zen 2" processor SKUs have steep electrical requirements? Will there not be any SKUs with double-digit-Watt TDP ratings? 



 



*Update (16/04):* MSI posted a clarification on this issue.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 15, 2019)

This is going to be some bad PR for MSI, that is a shame. Looks like I will roll ASRock for my x570 board.


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 15, 2019)

God damnit.
Like I'm rich and can change motherboards on the fly.
If this is true I will put MSI on my blacklist along with Biostar.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

I wonder how many of those affected will buy from MSI in the future.. or anyone else for that matter.

MSI could just have said that the 300 series only supports up to 8 or 12 cores, if that's really the issue here.


This is just a dick move.


----------



## dinmaster (Apr 15, 2019)

I've had msi boards and they are nothing but trouble, the greed on full display here is another example of bad practice like intel has done. that power usage excuse is total crap, boards can deliver a lot more power then then stock cpus need, maybe run into oc problems with a newer more hungry cpu but for the most part i'm sure even in zen 4-5 it would still run stock just fine. at least we see msi's true colors here and hopefully people see this and punish them by not getting any.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

Dear MSI,

Working hard and making money is a part of life. Using tactics like the ones described in this article is lowlifeishness and is not rewarded with further purchasing of your products. Best reconsider unless you want some very unprofitable backlash. Otherwise, take a long walk off a short pier or perhaps take a flying leap off a tall cliff or maybe go french-kiss a light socket? Yes, yes..

Regards,
Retailers and Purchasers everywhere.


----------



## OneMoar (Apr 15, 2019)

maby not open with calling vendors greedy based on the information provided by one T1 support agent in Germany ?
to much speculation and faulty assumptions here, I expected better

this crap has been  making the rounds with some sites claiming that the bios chip size on B3xx boards was to small to accommodate the microcode, which given that the microcode is a few bytes to a couple of kb and most bios images are < 8MB
is bullshit, so now somebody is blaming the vrm ? in a poorly translated email exchange, ill but that for a dollar 

is there possibly unforeseen compatibility oversight on some of the lower end boards, Probly is it a show stopper probably not ...

so why don't we just stop with the click bait articles and stop writing scathing bs posts based on one user dealing with one T1 agent over email
seriously bta you should know better


----------



## the54thvoid (Apr 15, 2019)

If true, it will hurt AMD as well. I planned on mobo longevity when I bought first gen Ryzen. If Asus follow suite, it shows AMD don't have the clout to force the issue. But, if I must change motherboard for a better processor, I may switch back to Intel.


----------



## londiste (Apr 15, 2019)

16MB BIOS chips?
That was the reason for dropping pre-Ryzen CPU support from some (cheaper) boards. It is only logical that the same problem will also kick in again now that new CPUs need to be added.

Edit:
So, the motherboard in question - X370 XPower Titanium - has the latest BIOS update with a file size of 16384 bytes.


----------



## ironwolf (Apr 15, 2019)

> Nein wird es nicht, diese wird es für X470 und B450 geben.


My German is rusty so ran that through Google Translate:

"No it will not, this will be for X470 and B450. "


----------



## RH92 (Apr 15, 2019)

That's not a smart move at all  from MSI especialy if they are not followed by other major vendors . I expect the backlash to be big to the point where they will be forced to  revert their decision .  

It's a shame because MSI was building some solid reputation on  AM4 with some very good mobos on both hardware and software side ( especialy with the recent implementation of offset voltage ) but looks like they are keen to destroy all of this !


----------



## Rahnak (Apr 15, 2019)

Oof.. If this is true, it's a not good move for MSI. And I was considering them for my next upgrade too.

Don't disappoint me now, ASRock.


----------



## cryohellinc (Apr 15, 2019)

If this turns out to be true, MSI will be in my blacklist, and not only for Mobos.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

Intel is the sole chipset manufacturer for todays CPU's, they can do whatever they please.

MSI is not in that position, but like OneMoar said, *is this really the official word from MSI?*

It won't last. It's either a misunderstanding, or MSI will change their mind.

Otherwise they'll lose a lot of money.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Apr 15, 2019)

MSI trying to push Intel-like tactics on AMD products, even to the point of going against what AMD themselves already publicly committed to?  Bad precedence, bad judgment, and bad business IMO.

What I'm REALLY curious about are motherboards like the Asrock x470 Tai Chi which have massively overspec VRM and power delivery solution; will they get a x570 bios update because the board itself can certainly handle it.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 15, 2019)

I had an MSI x370 and moved to an Aorus one... was looking at all brands for moving to x570, but dick moves like this turn me right off a brand.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

yakk said:


> What I'm REALLY curious about are motherboards like the Asrock x470 Tai Chi which have massively overspec VRM and power delivery solution; will they get a x570 bios update because the board itself can certainly handle it.


AsRock is really good about keeping their boards up to date. You can almost bet your life on it.



londiste said:


> Latest BIOS size for both Taichi x370 and x470 is identical to the MSI one. Depends on how large their Flash chip for BIOS is.


Microcode updates don't take up much space and there is always enough room on the eprom for such.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 15, 2019)

If true, this will put MSI right on the list with ASUS of brands I don't buy.  Which could be a shame as they were likely going to get a GPU purchase and MB purchase.

In any case, I am trying to cut down on my salt intake so we'll see what happens.


----------



## Xaled (Apr 15, 2019)

Have been boycotting MSI and ASUS since the GPP scandal. This incidence just made me sure that I am not doing the wrong thing.

Cheers for TPU


----------



## HossHuge (Apr 15, 2019)

Dick move by both MSI and AMD.  If this affected me I'd be sending out emails to both company's and posting on their forums.


----------



## Wavetrex (Apr 15, 2019)

Good reason for not buying MSI.

It's not like they are a market leader, in either volume and options... ASUS beats them hands down.
If ASUS won't do this crap, MSI will have no choice other than supporting as well, otherwise a lot of their customers will switch sides "just because"

Oh and there's Gigabyte, ASRock, Biostar, Elitegroup ... and there might be other less known ones especially on Asian market.
I doubt everyone will shoot themselves in the foot with such attitude.

---
If the manufacturer wants to sell a new board, then OFFER SOMETHING that is good enough that people will WANT to upgrade.

2.5 gbps Ethernet anyone ?
I'm sure that a LOT of people are waiting for it to become standard.

Also USB 3.x 10gbps, bundled radiator for NVMe, multiple (A)RGB headers that can be controlled independently, Wifi module offered on more boards (they are dirt cheap these days anyway)
Give use more and better stuff and WE WILL UPGRADE. Not because we HAVE TO, but because we WANT TO.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

*This is just FUD for now.*

Expect MSI to speak out within a week and correct this. 

If not, then yes, they're indeed stupid in the face.


----------



## cool_recep (Apr 15, 2019)

Pretty sure they will release updated BIOS'es. I think you guys jumped a little bit fast on the wagon.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

cool_recep said:


> Pretty sure they will release updated BIOS'es. I think you guys jumped a little bit fast on the wagon.


This.

We need something official from MSI, until then there's no point in posting "if this is true" posts. We already know what everyone thinks if this is true..


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

HossHuge said:


> Dick move by both MSI and AMD. If this affected me I'd be sending out emails to both company's and posting on their forums.


AMD is not a part of the decision at hand. Keep the blame where it belongs.


----------



## Super XP (Apr 15, 2019)

It looks like MSI don't want people buying there motherboards at all.
The one thing I'm well aware of is many people will actually buy a new x570 motherboard regardless of backwards compatibility.  To ensure every single feature can be tapped into with the new Processors. 

So this is simply a MSI greed tactic that WILL backfire.

Any company that follow suit should also see low overall sales.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> AMD is not a part of the decision at hand. Keep the blame where it belongs.


You're right, but it's actually not a bad thing if AMD gets some of the blame, because this could possibly make AMD put some pressure on MSI.

Have AMD officially said that the 300 series will work with Matisse? If so then it's up to AMD to make it happen, motherboard vendors tend to get lazy from time to time and might need some pushing to get back on track.


----------



## renz496 (Apr 15, 2019)

yakk said:


> MSI trying to push Intel-like tactics on AMD products, even to the point of going against what AMD themselves already publicly committed to?  Bad precedence, bad judgment, and bad business IMO.
> 
> What I'm REALLY curious about are motherboards like the Asrock x470 Tai Chi which have massively overspec VRM and power delivery solution; will they get a x570 bios update because the board itself can certainly handle it.



because it is the most make sense move for motherboard maker. bad judgment? for consumer it might be. bad business? was it bad if they can sell more product that way?


----------



## RedBull108 (Apr 15, 2019)

I had enough of MSI when even the fan on the GTX 660 failed and i have seen plenty of people with the same problems on GTX 9xx/1XXX series. Crap quality overall, after that 660 i avoided them for every single component and looks like it was a good thing to do


----------



## renz496 (Apr 15, 2019)

Super XP said:


> It looks like MSI don't want people buying there motherboards at all.
> The one thing I'm well aware of is many people will actually buy a new x570 motherboard regardless of backwards compatibility.  To ensure every single feature can be tapped into with the new Processors.
> 
> So this is simply a MSI greed tactic that WILL backfire.
> ...



which is better? knowing they probably going to buy new mobo or guarantee them to get the new mobo whether they like it or not? for consumer it is simple greed.


----------



## HD64G (Apr 15, 2019)

If they insist in doing this, they wll lose many MB sales. I was ready to get their B450 Tomahawk later in the year and would advice a friend of mine to do the same but I will go to Asrock or Gigabyte if they don't change their plans. So, let's make some noise to change their mind on that.  Customer is always right after all...


----------



## TheAbyss (Apr 15, 2019)

Being german, I can tell that in Terms of Translation, the email is Crystal clear and to the Point. Given that this may not represent MSI´s real reaction, but an uninformed (lazy) reply, I´d say wait and see. I have not jumped the AM4 Train yet, as I did not buy AMDs promise that even gen1 Zen boards actually can handle zen+ or even zen2 in the first place. The platform is interesting, but right now there is no benefit for me switching from Skylake to Zen+ in my working Scenarios (gaming!).


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

Mats said:


> You're right, but it's actually not a bad thing if AMD gets some of the blame


Yes it. It's never a good thing to blame someone for something they didn't do and have no part in.


Mats said:


> because this could possibly make AMD put some pressure on MSI.


That's likely to happen anyway.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 15, 2019)

Mats said:


> You're right, but it's actually not a bad thing if AMD gets some of the blame, because this could possibly make AMD put some pressure on MSI.
> 
> Have AMD officially said that the 300 series will work with Matisse? If so then it's up to AMD to make it happen, motherboard vendors tend to get lazy from time to time and might need some pushing to get back on track.


Even then AMD can't force MSI or any other mobo maker to update their BIOS, making the switch to Zen2 possible. MSI & others can & likely will give BS reasons to skip the AGESA updates altogether.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Apr 15, 2019)

renz496 said:


> because it is the most make sense move for motherboard maker. bad judgment? for consumer it might be. bad business? was it bad if they can sell more product that way?



Indeed they want to sell more product, especially with artificial limitations is more profitable.  Bad business is directly publicly contradicting your business partner in the process.  

Even if msi thinks their branding can take the PR hit, then it's a calculated risk with limited upside.  Unlike corporate,  marketing, hype,  and branding for the consumer market is vital.


----------



## damric (Apr 15, 2019)

I speculate that the boards will work fine but might miss out somewhat on Precision Boost Overdrive 2 which will be part of Ryzen 2. I actually have had a great relationship with the MSI BIOS engineers in the past. They quickly wrote me a beta BIOS for my 890FX board to support AM3+ within about 3 days of request, and a second beta BIOS a week later to extend my DDR3 overclocking to 2000MT/s despite the board only being rated to 1600MT/s.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's likely to happen anyway.


Yeah, I guess you're right.




R0H1T said:


> Even then AMD can't force MSI or any other mobo to update their BIOS,


Not forcing, but make enough difference so that MSI changes their mind.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 15, 2019)

HD64G said:


> If they insist in doing this, they wll lose many MB sales. I was ready to get their B450 Tomahawk later in the year and would advice a friend of mine to do the same but I will go to Asrock or Gigabyte if they don't change their plans. So, let's make some noise to change their mind on that.  Customer is always right after all...



we shouldn't have to make noise to change their mind. I already decided my x570 board will not be MSI, welcome to the free markets. learn how to PR better nubs is my only advice to all the companies.


----------



## Agent_D (Apr 15, 2019)

Not surprising in today's market. I'm just curious how MSI has managed to stay in business at all up to this point. I've personally never had a single MSI product work well, regardless of which tier of product it was, from the basics to high end, they've all not worked properly or at all.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Even then AMD can't force MSI or any other mobo to update their BIOS


That's not true. AMD could stop selling them chipsets, which would effectively end their ability to make AM4 based boards.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 15, 2019)

MSI also make their GPUs, this is like chopping your hand to end that scratching itch.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

This made sense to me.


> I doubt the tech support team has any information regarding zen 2 at all, as that would be under NDA at the developer level,
> it would certainly not be information that the MSI tech support would be privy to at this stage.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

Mats said:


> This made sense to me.


Leaks do happen though.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 15, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> maby not open with calling vendors greedy based on the information provided by one T1 support agent in Germany ?
> to much speculation and faulty assumptions here, I expected better
> 
> this crap has been  making the rounds with some sites claiming that the bios chip size on B3xx boards was to small to accommodate the microcode, which given that the microcode is a few bytes to a couple of kb and most bios images are < 8MB
> ...





Mats said:


> *This is just FUD for now.*
> 
> Expect MSI to speak out within a week and correct this.
> 
> If not, then yes, they're indeed stupid in the face.


I’ve got to second this.  One article based upon a not official statement by MSI as a company, and members of this forum pile on like lemmings on a train to Hell.

How about we wait and see for the veracity of this information?  It may not be the plan or official policy of MSI.  Stop getting the torches and pitchforks out based on rumor.


----------



## mad1394 (Apr 15, 2019)

If anyone is looking for me, I am out back sharpening my pitchfork. 
#outrage


----------



## Jism (Apr 15, 2019)

ironwolf said:


> My German is rusty so ran that through Google Translate:
> 
> "No it will not, this will be for X470 and B450. "



Yeah, basicly the higher end chipsets. However chipsets these days are build into the CPU. The motherboard simply offers connectivity and i think it has something todo with the PCI-E lanes or so.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> and members of this forum pile on like lemmings on a train to Hell.


Simple reason for this. IF true, MSI is effectively cutting off upgrade paths for many users that expected to be able to upgrade just a CPU.


rtwjunkie said:


> How about we wait and see for the veracity of this information?  It may not be the plan or official policy of MSI.  Stop getting the torches and pitchforks out based on rumor.


Prudent of course, however there's nothing wrong with a bit of preemptive outrage to motivate MSI to avoid such a foolish pitfall.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 15, 2019)

RedBull108 said:


> I had enough of MSI when even the fan on the GTX 660 failed and i have seen plenty of people with the same problems on GTX 9xx/1XXX series. Crap quality overall, after that 660 i avoided them for every single component and looks like it was a good thing to do


So one bad fan on a GPU 4 generations ago, and that makes MSI crap?  The rest of your statement is laughable, as their 9xx and 10xx series GPU’s have been consistently high quality and cooling.  

Also, GPU’s and motherboards are separate issues.  Let’s keep them that way.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 15, 2019)

Jism said:


> Yeah, basicly the higher end chipsets. However chipsets these days are build into the CPU. The motherboard simply offers connectivity and i think it has something todo with the PCI-E lanes or so.


Only true for AMD, Intel still needs a dedicated chipset at least for now.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> So one bad fan on a GPU 4 generations ago, and that makes MSI crap?  The rest of your statement is laughable, as their 9xx and 10xx series GPU’s have been consistently high quality and cooling.
> 
> Also, GPU’s and motherboards are separate issues.  Let’s keep them that way.


I generally gloss over statements made by new users unless they're asking for help.. That one in particular. Just troll bait..


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Prudent of course, however there's nothing wrong with a bit of preemptive outrage to motivate MSI to avoid such a foolish pitfall.



I like this; prevention as opposed to scrambling for a cure...

Let's not forget, like happens oftentimes,  the leak could be intentional to feel out market sentiment.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

Jism said:


> Yeah, basicly the higher end chipsets.


No, they're referring to the second generation of chipsets, the 400 series.


----------



## evolucion8 (Apr 15, 2019)

the54thvoid said:


> If true, it will hurt AMD as well. I planned on mobo longevity when I bought first gen Ryzen. If Asus follow suite, it shows AMD don't have the clout to force the issue. But, if I must change motherboard for a better processor, I may switch back to Intel.



Going back to a slower CPU riddled with security issues?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

yakk said:


> I like this; prevention as opposed to scrambling for a cure...
> 
> Let's not forget, like happens oftentimes,  the leak could be intentional to feel out market sentiment.


This is entirely possible. However, if some silly nit at MSI didn't think this would cause backlash, they really shouldn't be in that job.


----------



## RedBull108 (Apr 15, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> So one bad fan on a GPU 4 generations ago, and that makes MSI crap?  The rest of your statement is laughable, as their 9xx and 10xx series GPU’s have been consistently high quality and cooling.
> 
> Also, GPU’s and motherboards are separate issues.  Let’s keep them that way.


Its not just a single fan, you can google it including the newer series and notice how i was not the only one on this planet with a bad msi product. It does show the quality, or lack of, of their products. Might be separate issues but i kept buying gpus and motherboards from other companies ever since and a bios update for new ryzen cpus is already available.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

evolucion8 said:


> Going back to a slower CPU riddled with security issues?


Intel is slower? What drugs are you on?

Don't get me wrong, Ryzen rocks! However, IPC is a thing and Intel is ahead in that race. Not by much and that's what makes Ryzen so compelling.


----------



## Lindatje (Apr 15, 2019)

My next x570 motherboard.

MSI, Asus, ASRock or Gigabyte


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

RedBull108 said:


> Its not just a single fan, you can google it including the newer series and notice how i was not the only one on this planet with a bad msi product. It does show the quality, or lack of, of their products. Might be separate issues but i kept buying gpus and motherboards from other companies ever since and a bios update for new ryzen cpus is already available.


You can stop trolling now, no one is taking you seriously. Why? Because we all know that MSI, nor anyone else, make their own fans. Manufacturing mistakes happen and whoever made the fans for that series of cards made a mistake MSI couldn't control. Once they knew, MSI fixed the problem.


----------



## PanicLake (Apr 15, 2019)

cool_recep said:


> Pretty sure they will release updated BIOS'es. I think you guys jumped a little bit fast on the wagon.





Mats said:


> This.
> 
> We need something official from MSI, until then there's no point in posting "if this is true" posts. We already know what everyone thinks if this is true..




Maybe read the article?

"In a support e-mail to an X370 XPower Titanium owner, MSI confirmed that it will not extend Zen 2 support to AMD 300-series. "

Just another brand that goes into the : don't buy list.


----------



## champsilva (Apr 15, 2019)

When first Ryzen released and AMD has promised future upgrade until 2020 i said this is totally a motherboard brand choice, since they control bios updates and not AMD.

If Asus and Gigabyte do the same, and they can since is better for them to sell new motherboards and not wait 4 and 4 years to users upgrade this will be an AMD shot itself in the foot.


----------



## RedBull108 (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You can stop trolling now, no one is taking you seriously. Why? Because we all know that MSI, nor anyone else, make their own fans. Manufacturing mistakes happen and whoever made the fans for that series of cards made a mistake MSI couldn't control. Once they knew, MSI fixed the problem.


Lol, other companies like u say dont make their own fans either and i still havent seen a single one fail. Doesnt matter tho, avoiding them ever since and never had a problem with anything


----------



## Rivage (Apr 15, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> This is going to be some bad PR for MSI, that is a shame. Looks like I will roll ASRock for my x570 board.


Anyways. AMD's Precision Boost Overdrive works only with 400 series chipsets. Say thanks to AMD as well then.
I changed my X370 board to X470 long ago, with minimal cost. Sold barely new X370 board, yet with warranty for a good price. Not a problem at all.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 15, 2019)

champsilva said:


> When first Ryzen released and AMD has promised future upgrade until 2020 i said this is totally a motherboard brand choice, since they control bios updates and not AMD.
> 
> If Asus and Gigabyte do the same, and they can since is better for them to sell new motherboards and not wait 4 and 4 years to users upgrade this will be an *AMD shot itself in the foot*.


Won't matter too much for AMD either because Zen3 (4?) will likely bring DDR5 & you'll have to change the socket anyway. It's nice to have an option, though don't assume there will be expected support for such largesse - if I may call it that.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Apr 15, 2019)

Anyone tried to page the MSI rep on TPU and ask him if this is true?? We did have an MSI rep lurking around here at one point or another


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 15, 2019)

Meh...  TL: DR...

Why not allow support for boards which can handle the new cpus...


I dont see this as a huge issue assuming the power thing is true. If they would certify a shoe box you can run into issues like with fx and literally only a handful of boards can handle overclocking and some throttle at stock...nobody wants an fx CPU or sub par mobo from amd/aib, again. 

Everyone wants something for nothing.


----------



## BackSlash (Apr 15, 2019)

OK, Fine! now I sell my x370 Gaming Titanium and BUY a newone, not from MSI btw..


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 15, 2019)

londiste said:


> has the latest BIOS update with a file size of 16384 bytes.



Of course it does, that's how raw images work.  I can promise you it has room and AT LEAST 20% of it is unused, if not more.



evolucion8 said:


> Going back to a slower CPU riddled with security issues?



It isn't slower and the security issues are a near nonissue.



EarthDog said:


> If they would certify a shoe box you can run into issues like with fx and literally only a handful of boards can handle overclocking and some throttle at stock...



Part of the issue is, the VRMs on MSIs complete x370 lineup is garbage.  Their highest end board, the XPOWER Titanium, still uses friggin Nikos Powerpaks...


----------



## champsilva (Apr 15, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Won't matter too much for AMD either because Zen3 (4?) will likely bring DDR5 & you'll have to change the socket anyway. It's nice to have an option, though don't assume there will be expected support for such largesse - if I may call it that.



Well, if amd wants to keep their promise, DDR5 need to be launched at 2021, or maybe hybrid DDR4 and DDR5, like some motherboard for Intel were.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 15, 2019)

Tbh AMD doesn't need to revise their boards from 3xx to 5xx or 6xx each year if there's not much difference between them. Granted 5xx will bring PCIe 4.0 support, but AMD doesn't have to be Intel & can easily skip the revisions if they wanted to. It's possible that the board makers want this though, considering Intel changes their sockets like socks.


----------



## altermere (Apr 15, 2019)

"A socket change a year keeps the sheep in fear".


----------



## FWD_Problems (Apr 15, 2019)

Well, I will have to buy a new mobo i guess.. But i can tell you it wont be another MSI.  Do they actually think this will force sales?  it's not like they have a monopoly on mobo production.  Why would anyone go from a MSI mobo to another MSI mobo after this shit.


----------



## thomaskoelln (Apr 15, 2019)

Counting on ASRock not to do the same.


----------



## Lindatje (Apr 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Part of the issue is, the VRMs on MSIs complete x370 lineup is garbage.


what kind of problems can you expect with bad VRMs?


----------



## kastriot (Apr 15, 2019)

Greed..greed never changes.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 15, 2019)

Lindatje said:


> what kind of problems can you expect with bad VRMs?



For the 8core Ryzens they are adaquate and the worst you'll suffer is bad OC results, but with more cores / power draw, they could physically fail ruining the board...  I'd watch the VRM temps if you ever get more than what we presently have.


----------



## Patriot (Apr 15, 2019)

To be fair, AMD said they would keep using AM4 socket, they didn't say every board would support the new higher tdp >8c chips.
MSI choosing not to support any of them... well that's on them.

Remembering the am3/+  and lga775 days where socket didn't mean compatible... 
iirc, msi had some of the better ram support for am4... this is truly disappointing.

*That said, L1 tech support is not the end all answer.*


----------



## evolucion8 (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Intel is slower? What drugs are you on?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Ryzen rocks! However, IPC is a thing and Intel is ahead in that race. Not by much and that's what makes Ryzen so compelling.



Well, Intel's IPC advantage is less than 10% (Not accounting the thermal headroom that makes Intel ramp up their frequencies sky high), then uses far more power, is considerably slower on multi core performance as their SMT scaling is notably worse (Intel uses dynamic partitions while AMD used static partitions on some areas to minimize thread collision, cache trashing and threads fighting for resources), also runs cooler and is way cheaper. There is no compelling reason to buy any Intel CPU for now unless if your specific workload requires AVX and you can also manage to control the extreme heat generated when using AVX.


----------



## the54thvoid (Apr 15, 2019)

If only CD Projekt Red made motherboards. Loyalty FTW.


----------



## MeChGanG (Apr 15, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> So one bad fan on a GPU 4 generations ago, and that makes MSI crap?  The rest of your statement is laughable, as their 9xx and 10xx series GPU’s have been consistently high quality and cooling.
> 
> Also, GPU’s and motherboards are separate issues.  Let’s keep them that way.



I fully agree, cause:

"
When the first SSD's where introduced, everyone knew the sandforce controller of any ssd brand with it, was faster than one with a marvell controller..
But that sandforce controller had many instabillities and could be DOA or dead within 2 months.
At those days, I bought an Crucial ssd with an marvell controller.. however, if you look at the new sandforce controllers now, they are just as reliable.
So an Samsung ssd with a new sandforce controller, could be more of an upgrade, cause of their speeds and they also happen to be reliable now.
"

So you can't judge them over a poor product in the past.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the MSI practices talked about now, I'm fully against it and won't look at any product of them right now.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 15, 2019)

evolucion8 said:


> Well, Intel's IPC advantage is less than 10% (Not accounting the thermal headroom that makes Intel ramp up their frequencies sky high), then uses far more power, is considerably slower on multi core performance as their SMT scaling is notably worse (Intel uses dynamic partitions while AMD used static partitions on some areas to minimize thread collision, cache trashing and threads fighting for resources), also runs cooler and is way cheaper. There is no compelling reason to buy any Intel CPU for now unless if your specific workload requires AVX and you can also manage to control the extreme heat generated when using AVX.


10% is 10%. Higher overclocked clocks by ~25%. SMT efficiency is better on AMD, but most dont even use 8 cores in the first place. 

Anyway, there is plenty of reason to get Intel over AMD still. It just depends on use.


----------



## vMax65 (Apr 15, 2019)

I see a fair few of you have no idea how business works...I am sure the older gen MSI motherboards will work but not to the potential of the new X5 series and Motherboard manufacturers have to look to making the manufacturing profitable and If they have to wait 4 years + before people actually start upgrading, that business will die...

As importantly, coming out in such a scathing manner before we even have official word is not the right way...Yes do point out that this is something you have been told but wait until you get official word before crucifying them!


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 15, 2019)

evolucion8 said:


> Well, Intel's IPC advantage is less than 10% (Not accounting the thermal headroom that makes Intel ramp up their frequencies sky high), then uses far more power, is considerably slower on multi core performance as their SMT scaling is notably worse (Intel uses dynamic partitions while AMD used static partitions on some areas to minimize thread collision, cache trashing and threads fighting for resources), also runs cooler and is way cheaper. There is no compelling reason to buy any Intel CPU for now unless if your specific workload requires AVX and you can also manage to control the extreme heat generated when using AVX.



Forget about all that, OC the Intel and you have a whole 'nother use case over Ryzen.



vMax65 said:


> I see a fair few of you have no idea how business works...I am sure the older gen MSI motherboards will work



Not without a bios update they won't.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 15, 2019)

RedBull108 said:


> I had enough of MSI when even the fan on the GTX 660 failed and i have seen plenty of people with the same problems on GTX 9xx/1XXX series. Crap quality overall, after that 660 i avoided them for every single component and looks like it was a good thing to do





Agent_D said:


> I've personally never had a single MSI product work well, regardless of which tier of product it was, from the basics to high end, they've all not worked properly or at all.



You guys have to realise that MSI is one of the two major vendors along with ASUS on both motherboard and GPU sides  and you don't become a leader by selling crap products !
Obviously sh*** happens with all manufacturers  since fails are unavoidable no matter how good products you make but  criticizing MSI on  GTX 900/1000 series for example is laughable at best  because they objectively had the best card/cooler ! 

We all agree that this is very bad move if true but please don't let your hatred speak for you .


----------



## evolucion8 (Apr 15, 2019)

If only software scaled as good as OCing.... I got massive gains by just increasing my RAM clockspeed to 3,400MHz from 2,933 before the BIOS update.


----------



## sergtrav (Apr 15, 2019)

Goodbye MSI, if so.


----------



## Metroid (Apr 15, 2019)

They were comfortable with intel because intel almost thinks like them with the exception that intel wants you with a new motherboard every new cpu release, intel got so greedy that not even generation to generation cpu releases worked out for them and now msi wants amd to be like intel because amd got the cpu that will finally make them more attractive than intel for the first time in the past  14 years. Good to know, msi is banned from my list.

PS: Lets see how amd will behave as soon as its cpu becomes a success. This new motherboard business practice every intel release got to a point where it was hilarious.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

GinoLatino said:


> Maybe read the article?


I did. I've already explained why this isn't proof enough. Matisse support shouldn't even be official at this point, as some people have pointed out.


----------



## zlobby (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> AMD is not a part of the decision at hand. Keep the blame where it belongs.



But they could be a part of the solution. If I was AMD, I would ban a certain board manufacturer from future chip/license supplies if they pull such a dick move. Let them skip a whole generation of chipsets, next time they will think twice.

Offtopic, there are no sane mobo manufacturers left in the consumer segment...

P.S. spare me the whole asrock/asus godliness here, I've seen their BS firsthand too.


----------



## Angrybeaver (Apr 15, 2019)

Msi boards have never been anything special. I will just stick with Asus, gigabyte, and asrock.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

zlobby said:


> Offtopic, there are no sane mobo manufacturers left in the consumer segment...
> 
> P.S. spare me the whole asrock/asus godliness here, I've seen their BS firsthand too.


True, no one is perfect. And ASUS recently had a major screwup. However, AsRock is one of the most solid makers. EVGA is another.


----------



## londiste (Apr 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Of course it does, that's how raw images work.  I can promise you it has room and AT LEAST 20% of it is unused, if not more.


I started to suspect the same after seeing Taichis had the same size of image. On the other hand, my own AM4 board has BIOS image a little over 8MB so it is not universal.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

Angrybeaver said:


> Msi boards have never been anything special. I will just stick with EVGA and asrock.


Fixed that for you.

I really miss ABit, Albatron, DFI and QDI.


----------



## Turmania (Apr 15, 2019)

MSI is really tempting me to switch to ASUS....shame as I own a MB, GPU and a mouse and keyboard from them.


----------



## Agent_D (Apr 15, 2019)

RH92 said:


> You guys have to realise that MSI is one of the two major vendors along with ASUS on both motherboard and GPU sides  and you don't become a leader by selling crap products !
> Obviously sh*** happens with all manufacturers  since fails are unavoidable no matter how good products you make but  criticizing MSI on  GTX 900/1000 series for example is laughable at best  because they objectively had the best card/cooler !
> 
> We all agree that this is very bad move if true but please don't let your hatred speak for you .



If it was one or two products, I could understand, but I've dealt with so many MSI products (again, from all tiers, from cheap $50 boards to their highest end products) that were poorly made, poorly put together, or just outright didn't work in the last decade that I no longer recommend or buy their products. I let my experience speak for me, it's not about hatred, fanboyism or anything else, MSI has poor quality control from my experience and my wallet stopped opening for them.

MSI pulling the same stunt Intel did with the 300 series boards is just a huge slap in the face to their customers.


----------



## vMax65 (Apr 15, 2019)

Agent_D said:


> If it was one or two products, I could understand, but I've dealt with so many MSI products (again, from all tiers, from cheap $50 boards to their highest end products) that were poorly made, poorly put together, or just outright didn't work in the last decade that I no longer recommend or buy their products. I let my experience speak for me, it's not about hatred, fanboyism or anything else, MSI has poor quality control from my experience and my wallet stopped opening for them.
> 
> MSI pulling the same stunt Intel did with the 300 series boards is just a huge slap in the face to their customers.



I have been using MSI GPU's for years and I currently have one of there latest GPU's....never had an issue.


----------



## Dexiefy (Apr 15, 2019)

Knew to avoid MSI after nVidia GPP and them happily bending over alongside Asus. Spoke miles about the companies.
Sure as hell that once I will be on the lookout for MB/GPU (which will be end of this year most likely) I will make sure to never select MSI.
Greedy shits deserve no money.


----------



## ssdpro (Apr 15, 2019)

All you have to know is AMD will still gladly sell to MSI - because they approve.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 15, 2019)

Have they just shot themselves in the foot?


----------



## mstenholm (Apr 15, 2019)

RedBull108 said:


> Its not just a single fan, you can google it including the newer series and notice how i was not the only one on this planet with a bad msi product. It does show the quality, or lack of, of their products. Might be separate issues but i kept buying gpus and motherboards from other companies ever since and a bios update for new ryzen cpus is already available.


Please stay out off this discussing.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

ssdpro said:


> All you have to know is AMD will still gladly sell to MSI - because they approve.


You can't and don't know that.


tigger said:


> Have they just shot themselves in the foot?


We'll see. Once MSI HQ makes the official statement we'll know.


----------



## AsRock (Apr 15, 2019)

> Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI



And who  else ?, we need this confirmed.  Were is it pointed that OTHER company's are involved in this ?.

IF it turns out true i just will not buy MSI products, it's just that simple and that goes for any other company too.

Seems like more rumor and click bait atm.


----------



## MeChGanG (Apr 15, 2019)

One thing about asus and intel on amd..
I've got an fx8350 with an asus crosshair V formula-z mobo and an very good intel onboard Ethernet chip.
But the onboard ethernet chip has been proven unusable, cause of lack of support for windows 8 and 10.


----------



## TheGuruStud (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> I really miss ABit, Albatron, DFI and QDI.



DFI lanparty baby!  Lasted like 10 yrs OCed. MSI wishes they could last 5.


----------



## king of swag187 (Apr 15, 2019)

Oh? Whats that? The main reason for ryzen is no longer true? Is this... possibly.... AMD copying intel?


----------



## Leonardo Oscar Morellato (Apr 15, 2019)

well, hope AMD can force them to comply


----------



## notb (Apr 15, 2019)

Well.. everyone is attacking MSI. And maybe they'll back down. But what if other motherboard makers do the same?

For years we had this great status quo: Intel changed sockets, mobo makers sold a lot of motherboards.
Now AMD crowd wants to keep their motherboards for longer. But will they be willing to pay more? Because how exactly are companies like MSI going to make money on this?

And this is all happening in a context of OEMs not very keen to invest into AM4 platform. I wonder why...


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 15, 2019)

Saw this coming back when AMD announced they'd "use" AM4 for at least 10 years. I said then, just because they were going to keep using the socket doesn't mean the old motherboards will support the new processors.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 15, 2019)

AMD never said anything about 10 years.


notb said:


> And this is all happening in a context of OEMs *not very keep to invest into AM4 platform*. I wonder why...


Which runs contrary to recent leaks ~ ASUS and ASRock AMD X570 Chipset Motherboards Listed


----------



## notb (Apr 15, 2019)

Leonardo Oscar Morellato said:


> well, hope AMD can force them to comply


Or they can show AMD the finger.
Any motherboard maker can afford to be Intel-exclusive.
Can AMD afford losing the (AFAIK) 2nd largest DIY mobo manufacturer?


----------



## Spencer LeBlanc (Apr 15, 2019)

i smell a lawsuit, where the lawyers get paid out. We get $10 rebates..


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 15, 2019)

Spencer LeBlanc said:


> i smell a lawsuit, where the lawyers get paid out. We get $10 rebates..


LOL, I don't.


----------



## slehmann (Apr 15, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> This is going to be some bad PR for MSI, that is a shame. Looks like I will roll ASRock for my x570 board.



Good choice. 
I bought my ASRock X370 Killer SLI just when the first Ryzen CPUs were available. And also equipped it with 64GB of RAM. 
It ran flawless from the start, even when media was full of memory incompatibility issues with Ryzen at that time. 
Will buy my next board also from that brand.


----------



## TheGuruStud (Apr 15, 2019)

notb said:


> Or they can show AMD the finger.
> Any motherboard maker can afford to be Intel-exclusive.
> Can AMD afford losing the (AFAIK) 2nd largest DIY mobo manufacturer?



MSI is a joke. If they disappear everyone else will just sell more. There's nothing must have or special about them.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 15, 2019)

king of swag187 said:


> Oh? Whats that? The main reason for ryzen is no longer true? Is this... possibly.... AMD copying intel?



I suppose that could be true if MSI spells AMD.


----------



## 1usmus (Apr 15, 2019)

*You are now the victims of deception. The man made himself popular on a fictional problem.
Support will be for all motherboards with no exceptions.*


----------



## RH92 (Apr 15, 2019)

Agent_D said:


> I let my experience speak for me, it's not about hatred, fanboyism or anything else, MSI has poor quality control from my experience and my wallet stopped opening for them.



I respect that , personally i've owned several motherboards from them and all have worked flawlessly and served me well for years so that proves a point , mileage may vary from customer to customer , im sure there are plenty of peoples who like you have had bad luck with them the same way im sure there are  MUCH more people for whom like me everything has worked well  , that's true for all manufacturers but my point still stands you can't say MSI sells crap products based  of your personal experience since you don't become market leader by selling crap products !


----------



## B-Real (Apr 15, 2019)

Easy solution: buy another manufacturer's motherboard. ASRock may be the best anyway.


----------



## Paganstomp (Apr 15, 2019)

this topic is getting hotter then the Notre Dame Cathedral....


----------



## Metroid (Apr 15, 2019)

notb said:


> Well.. everyone is attacking MSI. And maybe they'll back down. But what if other motherboard makers do the same?
> 
> For years we had this great status quo: Intel changed sockets, mobo makers sold a lot of motherboards.
> Now AMD crowd wants to keep their motherboards for longer. But will they be willing to pay more? Because how exactly are companies like MSI going to make money on this?



This is for amd to decide, will amd betray its consumers like intel did? Only time will tell us. Remember that being the underdog is something entirely different to when you are leading it.

"_AM4_ was launched in September 2016 " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM4

Lets see how long am4 will last.


----------



## ssdpro (Apr 15, 2019)

"ASUS and Gigabyte just confirmed they are doing the same. RIP AMD."

Seriously... that is what it is like in Intel rumor comment sections. This is just wild speculation - calm down. "Betrays"?!??!!?


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 15, 2019)

If it's true I will engage Karen Mode and demand either a B450 or my money back.


----------



## Metroid (Apr 15, 2019)

If this is bound by manufacture, lets see how asrock behaves, asrock usually is the only one who stands for consumers.

I myself will buy a x57 because of pcie4.0 and navi might be linked.


----------



## TheOne (Apr 15, 2019)

Can't wait to see how this plays out.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 15, 2019)

B-Real said:


> Easy solution: buy another manufacturer's motherboard. ASRock may be the best anyway.



Too many people praise Asrock for no real reason imo . Asrock has good hardware but that's where it ends , their bios on AM4 has been a joke ,  updates that brake more things than they do fix and take ages to come , abisimal ram compatibility , missing bios options ( on b350 / 450 ) etc etc  so yeah what's the point to have good hardware if the software doesn't follow ? Obviously that varies depending your expectations and how hard you pushing your board but yeah ......

In my book ASUS has the best combination of hardware/software on AM4 second comes MSI  , would like to have EVGA  as an option but sadly they don't make AM4 .


----------



## notb (Apr 15, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> AMD never said anything about 10 years.
> Which runs contrary to recent leaks ~ ASUS and ASRock AMD X570 Chipset Motherboards Listed


Yeah... it's always such a huge news when someone launches an AMD product... Or leaks a launch...

ASUS and ASRock already make similar products with existing AMD chipsets. I don't see how this could be surprising.

Also, "making" doesn't really equal "selling". ASUS clearly promotes Intel in their products. It's the mainstream CPU brand. AMD is just an alternative for a particular niche.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Apr 15, 2019)

on this rare occasion I agree with @TheGuruStud
msi really have established themselves as one of the most pursued brands
but their z390 lineup has been lacking,and now this,so ........ oh well,there's other brands


----------



## ZoneDymo (Apr 15, 2019)

Guess I wont be buying MSI next upgrade.


----------



## Mamya3084 (Apr 15, 2019)

Hmmm, so my MSI B450 with some crappy VRM will support Zen2, but my high end x370 MSI board won't.

Guess I'll avoid them in the future


----------



## biffzinker (Apr 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> I really miss ABit, Albatron, DFI and QDI.


EPoX didn't make it on list of brands you miss? Never owned a EPoX board I take it?



> They manufactured mainboards for AMD and Intel processors, which were renowned for being overclocker-friendly yet affordable.


----------



## Tsukiyomi91 (Apr 15, 2019)

this one is easy; don't buy MSI. ASUS, Gigabyte & ASRock are good alternatives.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> EPoX didn't make it on list of brands you miss? Never owned a EPoX board I take it?


Not really. I've crossed paths with a few here and there, but not enough to gain a legitimate opinion. I'm like that. If I have no experience with something, I offer no opinion because such would be ill-informed.


----------



## notb (Apr 15, 2019)

TheGuruStud said:


> MSI is a joke. If they disappear everyone else will just sell more. There's nothing must have or special about them.


Why would there be anything special? They're just a manufacturer. But a big one.

I think some people here don't know the financial context.
MSI, a company heavily focused on gaming stuff (mobo, GPU, laptops) has a yearly revenue of $3.5B.
Asus, doing all kinds of stuff for many consumer segments (and professionals as well) is around $14B.
ASRock, as interesting as it may be, sells for $0.3B. So it's 10x smaller than MSI.
And BTW: AMD revenue is $6.5B.

Don't underestimate this leak. If it's true, it's quite likely other companies will follow.


----------



## wiak (Apr 15, 2019)

not that long ago there was news of MSI changing to cheaper components on their tomahawk board, that might be a clue?


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

notb said:


> If it's true, it's quite likely other companies will follow.


Why would that be likely?

More FUD?


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 15, 2019)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> this one is easy; don't buy MSI. ASUS, Gigabyte & ASRock are good alternatives.


Asus needs no alternative. I mean Gigabyte is 10 times better in accessories, but they only go so far as playing a factor.


----------



## kanecvr (Apr 15, 2019)

Lots of you are recommending Asus boards. I for one won't touch their motherboards with a ten foot pole. They're overpriced compared to the competition (spec-wise) and both performance and reliability are hit and miss. Their top of the line offerings do perform well, but a large part of the top-end boards I've sold come back for RMA. I've had 2 maximus x boards come back with a broken PCI-E slot - apparently Asus didn't bother soldering all 3 of the retaining clips to the PCB and the weight of the owner's video cards made the slot's cover detach from the motherboard, while the pins remained soldered in place. I do love their UEFI design and functionality tough. I've also had returns on Asus Z370 strix boards due to faulty LGA socket locking mechanisms.

Their video cards are even worse - at least the ones using AMD GPUs. I owned a couple of Asus R9 280x (DirectCU II) cards in the past - both started to freeze the system after a few months of use - turns out the video bios was poorly set up and the board's cooling did not properly accommodate the power delivery circuits - that caused them to overheat (temps over 110C) and deliver unstable current. They were both fixed with a modified bios witch dropped the clocks from 1050 to 1000Mhz on the core and upped the vcore a bit - that kept the VRMs from going over 100C in typical usage scenarios. A permanent fix would have been a better cooler.  The trend continues with my Asus ROG STRIX Vega64 Gamig OC - alltough a custom designed board, it will not go over 1600MHz. In fact in most cases it hovers around 1550mhz - witch is a really poor clock speed for a custom board. On the other hand, the Frontier Edition Vega64 I picked up off a miner a couple of days ago can go as high as 1700MHz on it's shitty blower style cooler... Asus have really gone down the loo in the last 4-5 years.  I haven't owned any nvidia cards made by Asus (I usually stick to Zotac, EVGA or MSI for nvidia cards), maybe those are better. They make good great gaming laptops (stay away from their entry level stuff tough, it's pure garbage) and decent monitors, but that's where I draw the line.

In fact no company makes great products all across their product line...

- *Gigabyte *- excellent hardware, poor UEFI design and implementation. Hard to navigate and limited options even on some higher end boards. Sometimes overclocking just doesn't work as well as on competitive board. They are pretty reliable boards tough, and are the best value/reliability in my country. They do have a knack of using higher end components and chipsets on low or low-mid end boards - like the GA-AB350M-DS3H. One would thing it's a b350 board right? Well it's not. It's in fact a budget x370 chipset implementation: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-AB350M-DS3H-rev-1x#sp

- *Biostar *- make the best low-end boards I've ever used. Bios isn't bad either. I use their boards whenever I have to sell larger volumes of budget computers. Very few (if any) RMA requests. Their high-end boards aren't bad either - great OC performance, even on AMD platforms, good UEFI implementation and good build quality - the only problem is price. Biostar's flagship boards cost as much (if not more) then an equivalent Asrock or Gigabyte product with the same specs. They're boards are also kind of "chinese" looking (design-wise) and it puts people off.

- *MSI *- great high-end boards and decent reliability - although they've made some questionable design choices with their latest flagship products. It seems to me they're trying to pass off cost cutting methods as advances or features (talking about their suspicious dual VRMs in particular). Overclocking on their mid-end products is hit and miss. Their high-end stuff is great but hard to come by where I live -and rather expensive. Their mid-range boards are kind of crap - stay away from them. They're low end boars are also great - simple and well priced, good build quality and decent reliability.

- *Asrock *- excellent high-end boards, and best value/performance/features over anything on the market today. Not the greatest overclockers tough, although they have the hardware for it, some boards simply don't OC as well as they shroud. Asrock is pretty consistent across all their product lineup - so you can't really ever go wrong when buying an asrock board, be it low end or a flagship model.

- *EVGA *- great product line - probably the best performance + reliability out of the lot - but also the most expensive by far (at least where I'm from), and they limit themselves to intel platforms. Nowadays most uses want* an AMD rig (2600 and 1600x are my best sellers by a huge margin) and EVGA will only make intel and nvidia products. Their loss.

*most of my clients value price/performance over anything else - so they'll only stretch their budget so far. AMD offers 6 cores and 12 theards + motherboard + wraith cooler for 270-310$ while an intel core i5 9600k (cpu alone) is ~300$.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 15, 2019)

RH92 said:


> In my book ASUS has the best combination of hardware/software on AM4 second comes MSI , would like to have EVGA as an option but sadly they don't make AM4 .



Asus lost my business with Arez.  MSI almost joined that list back then as well.


----------



## slehmann (Apr 15, 2019)

A good AM4 motherboard costs about 130$ at the moment ... i cant blame the manufacturers if they want so sell more/newer ones.


----------



## notb (Apr 15, 2019)

Mats said:


> Why would that be likely?
> 
> More FUD?


Because their goal is to sell more?

AMD's strategy of long-lasting sockets is harming mobo makers. AMD is taking the profit they would keep in the Intel world.


----------



## Mats (Apr 15, 2019)

notb said:


> Because their goal is to sell more?


It's not that simple.
Consumers would possibly be less likely to upgrade their Summit Ridge + 300 series board to an all new 2019 CPU + board because it would cost more when you need a new board.
This would hurt sales of both CPU's and boards. Have you even seen all threads all over the place with 300/400 series boards waiting to be upgraded?

People feel the itch to upgrade, but if you need a new board as well you're likely not as tempted anymore.
Ryzen 1000 Summit Ridge is by no means that bad, and it would only encourage people to wait for the next socket.

As a consequence, if you upgrade anyway, that used 300 board is worth even less when you sell it, just because it won't work with new CPU's. This makes the upgrade even more expensive.

For instance, if MSI were that greedy they'd stop consumers from using Kaby Lake CPU's in 100 series boards. Yes, Intel usually only keep the same socket for only two generations, but this would easily change for the worse if it was as simple as you describe.
*
Besides, how will this help MSI? The whole internet is pissed off now.*


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Apr 15, 2019)

notb said:


> Because their goal is to sell more?
> 
> AMD's strategy of long-lasting sockets is harming mobo makers. AMD is taking the profit they would keep in the Intel world.



Just like mobile phone manufacturers shunning removable batteries because it costs them money since consumers buy less new phones.

Bad consumers!


----------



## overvolted (Apr 15, 2019)

I have a b450 and an x470. I dont care.


----------



## thebluebumblebee (Apr 15, 2019)

It is so sad to see TPU going the way of Fake News.  The fact that TPU no longer seems to understand the difference between a news post and an editorial is disappointing.

To think that MSI doesn't know the customer retention value of a "simple BIOS update".....(I'll get in trouble if I complete this sentence)
Upon what knowledge does the author assert that all it takes is a "simple BIOS update"?

Why does this matter?  Because BS like this "news" leads to: (not picking on you @ZoneDymo )


ZoneDymo said:


> Guess I wont be buying MSI next upgrade.



For the record, I own one of those X370 XPower Titanium motherboards.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 16, 2019)

thebluebumblebee said:


> It is so sad to see TPU going the way of Fake News.  The fact that TPU no longer seems to understand the difference between a news post and an editorial is disappointing.
> 
> To think that MSI doesn't know the customer retention value of a "simple BIOS update".....(I'll get in trouble if I complete this sentence)
> Upon what knowledge does the author assert that all it takes is a "simple BIOS update"?
> ...



I kinda have to agree, looking at the source... and we have six pages with no new info.

This story falls square in the hard-to-believe category


----------



## Metroid (Apr 16, 2019)

I really dont understand this, i mean, AMD will quadruple its sales with the ryzen 3000 series and 80% of that will be new users coming from intel and each will have to buy a motherboard, amd user base right now is not big x intel, so why msi is doing this is beyond me.


----------



## mcraygsx (Apr 16, 2019)

I know few of my friends purchased high end boards because they knew X370 will support  Zen 2 family of processors. At least that is what AMD intended during launch of RyZen. I sure hope that AMD steps into this conflict zone and stop vendors from following this *evil trend.*


----------



## Fluffmeister (Apr 16, 2019)

Interesting thread, shows the power of the evil duopoly. MSI are a business too and need fresh new products to sell, but the cult gets mad.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Why would there be anything special? They're just a manufacturer. But a big one.
> 
> I think some people here don't know the financial context.
> MSI, a company heavily focused on gaming stuff (mobo, GPU, laptops) has a yearly revenue of $3.5B.
> ...



Thing is Asus have already released  bios updates for their 300 series that supports Zen 2 and Asus is about the only other major vendor that can allow itself to follow such a move so to me looks like  MSI is alone on this !  Let's wait for some official statement from MSI cause i have a feeling that if that leak is indeed true they will come back to their decision quickly .



moproblems99 said:


> Asus lost my business with Arez.  MSI almost joined that list back then as well.



GPP  was way to overblown so personally im not going to deprive myself from one of the best manufacturers because of such a story but yeah to each his own i guess ....


----------



## freeagent (Apr 16, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> MSI also make their GPUs, this is like chopping your hand to end that scratching itch.



A lot of people wont buy MSI to begin with, they wouldn't be missed. I know of a guy who tried to clean his msi 1070 with a can of air, and one of the fan blades broke off. Their quality wont be missed either. Nvidia did it to XFX years ago, they don't give AF. Everyone else gets to make money.


----------



## Bones (Apr 16, 2019)

One more reason for me NOT to buy an MSI.
You'd think they would at least honor the commitment AMD made but no......

This along with using the absolutely poorest quality components (Nikos) possible to run in a board just screams "No" to me.

However one good point was brought up, they could all do this because all have with Intel as a point of fact and history seen so far.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 16, 2019)

freeagent said:


> I know of a guy who tried to clean his msi 1070 with a can of air, and one of the fan blades broke off.


Know of a guy.  Way to cite real statistics there.   Guess what, any fan blade can do that, and have done it.  And it serves the dumbass right. Anybody that is going to do that knows GPU fans are delicate and makes sure the blade doesn’t move while spraying through them. 

Their GPU quality, and again, not a matter for this thread, since it is about motherboards, is top-notch.


----------



## Vario (Apr 16, 2019)

"Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI want you to buy a new motherboard every two generations of processor for no sound reason at all. "

Reason: They need to make money to keep their shareholders happy.

Board obselecence is not a big deal.  Ever check the used prices of mint motherboards with box and manual?  You can sell the board for the same price you paid, less the ebay fee.  In some cases, you can sell it for more.  For example, I bought a AsRock Z77E-ITX for $150 from Amazon, used it for a few years, and sold it 3 years later for $220 on eBay.  I bought a Z77X-UD3H for $160 from Microcenter, used it for 6 years, sold it for $140 on eBay.  Keep the box, manuals, stickers, antistatic bag, and media.  If you take good care of it, it will be worth a lot to someone with a dead obsoleted system that needs a replacement board.

Same goes for CPUs as well, I bought the 3770K for $220 from Microcenter... Sold it for $200 on eBay 5 years later.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Apr 16, 2019)

So glad I've never purchased one of their MB's. Lost any potential customer permanently. Even if they reverse the decision the fact it would have been done under protest still makes them scum.


----------



## Vario (Apr 16, 2019)

Sooner or later the socket will be a dead one anyway with DDR5 on the horizon.  To be honest, until there is an official MSI statement, I think it's bullshit.  Either way, delayed socket obsolence is not really a selling point for me.  I plan to run this i5 8600K until it no longer runs the games I enjoy playing.  That might be 2024.  At that point, new computer build (new board, cpu, ram).


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> GPP  was way to overblown so personally im not going to deprive myself from one of the best manufacturers because of such a story but yeah to each his own i guess ....



To each their own but my two Asus boards left me unimpressed any way.  Granted that was in the Thuban days.  But it didn't help.


----------



## Thorsthimble (Apr 16, 2019)

Shame. I'm moving to a AM4 or sTR4 platform in a few weeks, depending on what I feel like spending at that time. If this really is the case, I'll be checking MSI off the list of possible mobo options. There's nothing I hate more than forced obsolescence, particularly when AMD designed this series of processors with forward compatibility specifically in mind.


----------



## JB_Gamer (Apr 16, 2019)

ssdpro said:


> "ASUS and Gigabyte just confirmed they are doing the same. RIP AMD."
> 
> Seriously... that is what it is like in Intel rumor comment sections. This is just wild speculation - calm down. "Betrays"?!??!!?



Where did You get that information from? As I only use Asus motherboard, but only have X470 and B450 myself, I out of curiosity checked up one model. This: https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-CROSSHAIR-VI-HERO/HelpDesk_BIOS/ as You can se has already received the bios for the next generation Ryzen CPUs.


----------



## Bruno_O (Apr 16, 2019)

JB_Gamer said:


> Where did You get that information from? As I only use Asus motherboard, but only have X470 and B450 myself, I out of curiosity checked up one model. This: https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-CROSSHAIR-VI-HERO/HelpDesk_BIOS/ as You can se has already received the bios for the next generation Ryzen CPUs.



Don't worry, it's fake news, my Prime X370-PRO has 2 BIOS updates for Ryzen 3 already.


----------



## Eskimonster (Apr 16, 2019)

Surely im gonna Boykot


----------



## TechCat (Apr 16, 2019)

So you wrote this story with no confirmation from MSI?  We already know MB makers are running into capacity limits for the BIOS chips so that may be where the confusion has occurred.  I get it, you hate AMD with a passion and could not pass up the chance to condemn them by comparing them to the recent and past 'criminal' practices of the likes of Sintel and nGreedia.  Why are the green and blue fanbois so afraid of the little red team.  AMD has made an amazing come-back and hit a number of firsts with limited capital yet you want them to fail, Why?  This is Rumor, not fact, and the title needs to reflect that.  I expect better from TechPowerUp.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 16, 2019)

TechCat said:


> So you wrote this story with no confirmation from MSI?  We already know MB makers are running into capacity limits for the BIOS chips so that may be where the confusion has occurred.  I get it, you hate AMD with a passion and could not pass up the chance to condemn them by comparing them to the recent and past 'criminal' practices of the likes of Sintel and nGreedia.  Why are the green and blue fanbois so afraid of the little red team.  AMD has made an amazing come-back and hit a number of firsts with limited capital yet you want them to fail, Why?  This is Rumor, not fact, and the title needs to reflect that.  I expect better from TechPowerUp.



How is something in writing from the company itself, rumour?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 16, 2019)

Retribution will result from their actions.

Man during Skt A they were pretty top end, now they are bargin bin crap.


----------



## freeagent (Apr 16, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Know of a guy.  Way to cite real statistics there.   Guess what, any fan blade can do that, and have done it.  And it serves the dumbass right. Anybody that is going to do that knows GPU fans are delicate and makes sure the blade doesn’t move while spraying through them.
> 
> Their GPU quality, and again, not a matter for this thread, since it is about motherboards, is top-notch.



Oh I'm sorry, I should have said a guy I work with, I didn't feel the need to elaborate further. Sorry I don't have any factual statistics for you, other than I haven't broken a gpu fan before. Regardless, it was still an MSI product. Glad you are enjoying yours


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 16, 2019)

freeagent said:


> Oh I'm sorry, I should have said a guy I work with, I didn't feel the need to elaborate further. Sorry I don't have any factual statistics for you,


Exactly. What you have is anecdotal evidence, which amounts to zippety squat.  I know a guy whose alternator died on his Lexus too.  See how silly that is in the face of very high customer satisfaction? It happens, and has nothing to do with branding.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

Mussels said:


> How is something in writing from the company itself, rumour?


The same way there was a letter from Asus, also in German iirc, that was proven wrong from reddit?

It's also tier 1 support... I wouldnt bet my life on them. 

That said, its not the source that is bad per say, perhaps the all in tone of believing it/seemingly not questioning its validity, is what some may be hung up on. It could be true... it could not be. What's the scope? Some boards only?

This first line sure strikes a chord, no...?





btarunr said:


> Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI want you to buy a new motherboard every two generations of processor for no sound reason at all.


whether the word reportedly was used after or not, this line sure was all in calling them greedy.

Was MSI contacted for confirmation?

Edit: did AMD ever state which chipsets or just the socket for 2020 support?


----------



## champsilva (Apr 16, 2019)

JB_Gamer said:


> Where did You get that information from? As I only use Asus motherboard, but only have X470 and B450 myself, I out of curiosity checked up one model. This: https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-CROSSHAIR-VI-HERO/HelpDesk_BIOS/ as You can se has already received the bios for the next generation Ryzen CPUs.



Maybe upcoming is related to Ryzen Pro?

https://www.techradar.com/news/amd-...nce-mobile-ryzen-pro-mobile-processors-coming 

Like those


----------



## jigar2speed (Apr 16, 2019)

Much respect to Techpowerup, this is Journalism right there. No fear and straight forward reporting of what it is. Thank you.


----------



## Assimilator (Apr 16, 2019)

Here's some more anecdotal fuel for the fire:

Back in the heady days of Core 2, MSI released a board called the P6N Diamond. It was a high-end board that was advertised as being compatible with the then-current Conroe quad-cores (Kentsfield) and, crucially, the upcoming Yorkfields. There was even a massive sticker on the box proclaiming this!

Well, I started off with a Q6600 in that board, and it was fine. Then the Yorkfields launched, the P6N Diamond BIOS/compatibility section on MSI's website got updated with those chips, and I got a great deal on a QX9650. With the latest BIOS flashed, I dropped in the new CPU and was ready for fun times... except I got the exact opposite.

I could not, for the life of me, get that board stable with the QX9650. Didn't matter whether it was stock or overclocked, sooner or later the system would simply hard-reset. I tried an E8400 (dual-core) and had the same problems. Around this time MSI started issuing a slew of beta BIOS updates for this board, but none of them resolved the instability, and there was a pretty long thread on MSI's forums with people who had the same issue.

The eventual consensus we users came to - after an MSI rep let slip a telling remark - was that the very bare minimum of CPU power circuitry had been implemented in the board's design, and that simply wasn't enough for 45nm Wolfdale/Yorkfield. MSI, of course, never bothered to officially address, let alone rectify the issue, and eventually they silently reverted the CPU support list for that board to only 65nm Conroe/Kentsfield: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/P6N_Diamond#support-cpu

tl;dr MSI has cheaped out on power delivery on "high-end" boards before, if this story is correct it would absolutely not surprise me.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

Mats said:


> It's not that simple.
> Consumers would possibly be less likely to upgrade their Summit Ridge + 300 series board to an all new 2019 CPU + board because it would cost more when you need a new board.


Consumers have a particular budget for their hobby. They spend it one way or another. Companies want to get as much of this budget as they can.

If you can upgrade the CPU more often than the motherboard, AMD earns more and MSI earns less. This really is simple.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 16, 2019)

and if you find out MSI are the only brand that doesnt let you upgrade, they get zero money from your future builds


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 16, 2019)

londiste said:


> I started to suspect the same after seeing Taichis had the same size of image. On the other hand, my own AM4 board has BIOS image a little over 8MB so it is not universal.



You had an 8MB chip then.

All that shows is that Ryzen can be implemented in 8MBs.  16 is a nonissue.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

jigar2speed said:


> Much respect to Techpowerup, this is Journalism right there. No fear and straight forward reporting of what it is. Thank you.



Not sure you know what Journalism is ! 

Journalism is foremost  verifying your information before publishing  and im afraid this didn't happened here since we don't have any official statement from MSI .  You are confusing Journalism with Sensationalism #clickbait !


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 16, 2019)

X470 Gaming Plus here so I guess no problems coming.


----------



## Tsukiyomi91 (Apr 16, 2019)

inb4 Intel has been doing this for a long time & yet when this level of news broke out to AMD users, they get mad for no reason when Intel users like me be like "eh... at least newer board, chipset etc means I can fully take advantage of the new hardware & not worry about the board being the limiting factor." That aside, at least other vendors will/might push out a UEFI/firmware update for the current boards in preparation for Ryzen 3000.


----------



## Assimilator (Apr 16, 2019)

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html



> Shortly thereafter we've seen news-posts that MSI would be doing this purely out of pure greed etc. Such wording seems to be incorrect.





> ... earlier on it was indicated that a BIOS chip limitations could be a factor in whether your board can support 3000-series Ryzen processors or not, support for 3000-series chips may now come down to a question of  something as simple as its 16MiByte flash storage on the (and all) 300 series. We know that the 400 series already anticipated this being able to store 32MiBytes. If that is the case, all motherboard manufacturers will drop Ryzen 3000 support on X370, B350 and A320 as it is simply incompatible.



TPU "news" staff, y'all should be extremely ashamed that Guru3D just did a better job than you.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 16, 2019)

Funny how my Asus B350 got updated to Agesa 0.0.7.2 so does in fact support the new 3000 series, only Asus , ASRock and Biostar have released new Bios updates to the latest Agesa 0.0.7.2 code that was recently released just a few weeks ago, Is it only MSI that does not?


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html  TPU "news" staff, y'all should be extremely ashamed that Guru3D just did a better job than you.



True Guru 3D did some proper work instead of simply calling MSI greedy but still doesn't explain why Asus has already pushed bios with Zen 2 support on their 300 series  so the chip limitation argument  can't explain everything !


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

Mussels said:


> and if you find out MSI are the only brand that doesnt let you upgrade, they get zero money from your future builds


They get zero money from my CPU upgrade anyway. And why wouldn't they get money from my future build? I'll be replacing both mobo and CPU then, right?

For better part of a decade 90-95% of x86 PC owners were totally fine with new sockets coming every 2 years. This means there's a big enough group that should be OK with MSI decision (even if it was pure greed, which seems not to be the case).
MSI should have no problem keeping their market share - they'll just focus on a more profitable client group who buy stuff more often. This is what all companies do. You're never after all possible consumers. You're "giving" the worst to your competition.


Chloe Price said:


> X470 Gaming Plus here so I guess no problems coming.


You really have no guarantee. That's the whole point. AMD never said that cutting edge CPUs will be available for all AM4 motherboards.
"AM4 supported until X" could simply mean you'll be able to buy any CPU (in case yours dies). We knew from the start that moving to 7nm and different architecture could mean huge problems.


RH92 said:


> but still doesn't explain why Asus has already pushed bios with Zen 2 support on their 300 series  so the chip limitation argument  can't explain everything !


Which motherboard precisely? People on forums mention particular models that have huge BIOS storage (up to 128MB). So some will work and some may not. At this point we don't know that for sure.
What we know is that AMD is very quiet about this.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cute, why does the incompatible BIOS(es) elude the likes of ASUS, Asrock et al?


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Which motherboard precisely?



Most of their X370s and probably B350s aswell i haven't checked for all of them .


notb said:


> People on forums mention particular models that have huge BIOS storage (up to 128MB). So some will work and some may not.



Peoples are confusing MB ( byte ) with Mb ( bits )  ASUS boards have 128Mb wich equals to 16MB so yeah nothing special here to my understanding that's the case with all 300 series .


notb said:


> What we know is that AMD is very quiet about this.



Considering AMD has probably very litle to do with this i don't see any particular reason why AMD should go crazy on what seems to be an MSI only realated issue ( that yet remains to be confirmed ) .

We better wait for an official MSI statement before jumping on any conclusion !


----------



## kings (Apr 16, 2019)

It will be perfectly normal if some boards don´t receive the updates, either due to lack of size in Bios, weak power circuit, etc ...

But until there's something official from AMD or the manufacturers, this could be just smoke. We will see how things progress.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> Peoples are confusing MB ( byte ) with Mb ( bits )  ASUS boards have 128Mb wich equals to 16MB so yeah nothing special here to my understanding that's the case with all 300 series .


Correct. I went through current lineup. There are some motherboards with 32MB. Haven't seen anything larger.
Sorry, BIOS storage capacity is not something I'm usually thinking about (and no consumer should, to be honest).


> Considering AMD has probably very litle to do with this i don't see any particular reason why AMD should go crazy on what seems to be an MSI only realated issue .


Because it's AMD's platform. They could have just told MSI to put use larger memory, because it will be handy 2 years later. That's what you expect from a business partner.
Instead, we have (still: potentially) a sad situation when such a tiny detail ruins one of the main reasons people moved to AMD.
This is also a big PR problem for the Red team.

And this kind of cooperation problems is nothing new. Did you already forget how Ryzen launch looked? Motherboard makers didn't get the specification early enough to prepare mobos. They came late and 1st generation was quite poor. There was also a problem with coolers (similar reason).

AMD is a big and experienced company. They shouldn't make such simple errors. And we should demand more.
Once in a while we have a discussion with "why aren't OEMs using Ryzen"? Well... it does seem like AMD is not a model business partner...


> We should  better wait for an official MSI statement before jumping on any conclusion !


Since this went public and the problem seems real, MSI is most likely trying to find a way to make Zen 2 compatible (maybe working together with AMD). I wouldn't expect an official statement anytime soon.

I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.


AMD said the SOCKET is supported to 2020. AMD did not mention a chipset IIRC.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.


I guess in the age of Intel, where they've introduced 3 new sockets since SKL in 3 years, you've forgotten what that means? LGA 775 ring a bell perhaps?


----------



## Assimilator (Apr 16, 2019)

There is an easy way to determine if what Guru3D posted is correct: if you have a non-MSI board that you updated to Zen 2 microcode, read the part number of the BIOS chip, and post it! MSI X370 XPower Titanium Gaming is confirmed to have a 16MB/128MiB BIOS chip, so if other boards that do support the new microcode have larger-capacity chips, the answer is clear.



notb said:


> They could have just told MSI to put use larger memory, because it will be handy 2 years later. That's what you expect from a business partner.



Based on my anecdote I posted earlier in the thread, I reckon MSI takes a "cost down" approach to implementing CPU manufacturers' designs. Instead of simply implementing the reference design, and then *supplementing* it with better or more components as needed, MSI does the opposite and cuts out bits until the design no longer works... then they add back the last bit that made the thing worked, and ship it.

In this case, they probably looked at the reference BIOS chip, then looked at the BIOS file size (maybe removed a whole bunch of null bytes), and determined that actually, the reference BIOS chip of 32MB is "unnecessarily large", so they substituted a 16MB chip - never considering what that would mean down the line.

This sort of miserly penny-pinching is what saves companies millions in the short term and wins managers performance awards, but when the bad PR comes back to bite...


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

I doubt this saved them millions, a few hundred thousand $ at best & cheapskates sounds just about right this time!


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> Based on my anecdote I posted earlier in the thread, I reckon MSI takes a "cost down" approach to implementing CPU manufacturers' designs. Instead of simply implementing the reference design, and then *supplementing* it with better or more components as needed, MSI does the opposite and cuts out bits until the design no longer works... then they add back the last bit that made the thing worked, and ship it.


Isn't this a standard approach? Do you think they shouldn't do it like that?


> In this case, they probably looked at the reference BIOS chip, then looked at the BIOS file size (maybe removed a whole bunch of null bytes), and determined that actually, the reference BIOS chip of 32MB is "unnecessarily large", so they substituted a 16MB chip - never considering what that would mean down the line.


And AMD should simply tell them: "hey, we're making a huge hype around AM4 being easy to upgrade in the future, but it will need 32MB ROM. Don't use anything smaller."
This is what you EXPECT from a business partner.

When you buy a piece of hardware or software from a large supplier, they're expected to send you very detailed documentation, organize training and support during implementation and afterwards.
But more importantly: they usually provide a consultant who sits in your company and makes sure everything works.

I'm pretty sure there's an AMD guy sitting in MSI office or a taxi drive away. What was he doing when they decided to save $0.5 per board on ROM?
What about certification? Isn't AMD checking these products before they launch?


----------



## jigar2speed (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> Not sure you know what Journalism is !
> 
> Journalism is foremost  verifying your information before publishing  and im afraid this didn't happened here since we don't have any official statement from MSI .  You are confusing Journalism with Sensationalism #clickbait !


Its really sad that a lot of folks don't understand sarcasm but still get what's clickbait.


----------



## las (Apr 16, 2019)

Not liking the idea of old mobos and new cpu's anyway.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Because it's AMD's platform. They could have just told MSI to put use larger memory, because it will be handy 2 years later. That's what you expect from a business partner. Instead, we have (still: potentially) a sad situation when such a tiny detail ruins one of the main reasons people moved to AMD.
> This is also a big PR problem for the Red team.



I think you are still confused .  ASUS  with 16GB  bios storage is already supporting Zen 2 on their 300series and 16GB seems to be common on all 300series motherboards regardless of the manufacturer so the bios storage limitation argument doesn't hold water . You are trying to blame AMD when everything tends to indicate that they have nothing to do with this !



notb said:


> Since this went public and the problem seems real, MSI is most likely trying to find a way to make Zen 2 compatible (maybe working together with AMD). I wouldn't expect an official statement anytime soon. I would, however, like a statement from AMD. They're the ones who fed us with that "supported until 2020" slogan. They should simply say what that means.



Again you are confused . Up untill now MSI never maid an official statement saying  they are dropping Zen 2 support on their 300 series , all this story comes from the words of an MSI employee who might or might not be spreading BS so peoples should stop acting as if all this was official and most importantly stop jumping onto conclusions before we get a better picture of what's going on  .


----------



## s8wc3 (Apr 16, 2019)

I opened the X370 titanium BIOS in a hex editor, unless i'm retarded (likely) there is over 230KB free. Probably closer to 250. If you can't fit a microcode update in that..... lol. I'm pretty sure Intel's mc is about 2K, not sure about AMD's, but it sure as hell could fit in 230K.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> already supporting Zen 2 on their 300series


*Proof?*


----------



## 1usmus (Apr 16, 2019)

*Come on guys, Its not funny anymore, this is fake*


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> *Proof?*



Google is your friend !


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> Google is your friend !


So you can't prove it, right?


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> So you can't prove it, right?



Should i take this as trolling ?


----------



## r00lz (Apr 16, 2019)

MSI and Gigabyte dont bother about older than 1 year old motherboard BIOS in general. Longest support of Motherboard BIOS has ASUS and ASrock


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

jigar2speed said:


> Its really sad that a lot of folks don't understand sarcasm but still get what's clickbait.



Yeah even more sad that nothing in your comment indicates you are being sacrastic but i guess we are supposed to read through peoples minds nowadays ....


----------



## s8wc3 (Apr 16, 2019)

r00lz said:


> MSI and Gigabyte dont bother about older than 1 year old motherboard BIOS in general. Longest support of Motherboard BIOS has ASUS and ASrock


Agreed. Though, i've had gigabyte video cards get bios updates years after the fact. Priorities, right?


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> Should i take this as trolling ?


Take it as whatever you want.
Has any motherboard manufacturer officially said that 300-series motherboards will be updated to work with Zen 2?
Yes/no?
Also a reminder:
"Zen 2" != "Ryzen 3000-series"


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

The 3xxx mobile chips you are talking about aren't pin compatible with AM4, surely you know that?


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Take it as whatever you want.
> Has any motherboard manufacturer officially said that 300-series motherboards will be updated to work with Zen 2?
> Yes/no?
> Also a reminder:
> "Zen 2" != "Ryzen 3000-series"



Go to ASUS page pick a x370 board  go to support then  bios section read the update notes ..... again google is your friend ! Point being don't expect others do the job for you !


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> You really have no guarantee. That's the whole point. AMD never said that cutting edge CPUs will be available for all AM4 motherboards.
> "AM4 supported until X" could simply mean you'll be able to buy any CPU (in case yours dies). We knew from the start that moving to 7nm and different architecture could mean huge problems.


Well, let's hope that this middle finger from MSI doesn't apply to every pre-Zen2 board. My last bios version has in change log "supports new AMD upcoming cpu", but I don't now what it exactly means, Zen2 or just something in the current lineup.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

The lemming mentality continues...


----------



## r00lz (Apr 16, 2019)

s8wc3 said:


> Agreed. Though, i've had gigabyte video cards get bios updates years after the fact. Priorities, right?


Right. If I thinking about buying computer component for future upgrade, I always choose component manufacturer which has longest support of product.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Take it as whatever you want.
> Has any motherboard manufacturer officially said that 300-series motherboards will be updated to work with Zen 2?
> Yes/no?
> Also a reminder:
> "Zen 2" != "Ryzen 3000-series"



https://community.amd.com/thread/238039

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/motherboard-bios-update-amd-ryzen-3000-cpus,38872.html

My B350 has been updated to agesa 0072, therefore supports Zen2, also states on the link, the bios is 2MB larger. My bios went from 8MB to 10.xMB


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> This is going to be some bad PR for MSI, that is a shame. Looks like I will roll ASRock for my x570 board.


MSI's CEO has claimed commitment to get Intel's market share up.
Hurting own AMD mainboard sales might be part of the grand plan.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> AMD said the SOCKET is supported to 2020. AMD did not mention a chipset IIRC.


But what "supporting a socket" means?
If they use the same physical element but rewire it, does that mean it's still supported? 

I mean: even the most dedicated AMD fan should at admit "socket supported until" really doesn't mean anything.

Was there ever a presentation slide or an interview where they simply said you'll be able to use any AM4 processor with any AM4 motherboard?
I'm not reading all of them. I might have missed it.


R0H1T said:


> I guess in the age of Intel, where they've introduced 3 new sockets since SKL in 3 years, you've forgotten what that means? LGA 775 ring a bell perhaps?


To be honest, I don't really care. 
What matters for me is whether I'll be able to buy a replacement CPU for around 5 years after I buy a CPU (so ~7 years after a socket is launched). And that's usually true, isn't it? Both Intel and AMD keep making a limited choice of old CPUs to support their clients.
Today you can easily buy something for LGA1055 (which was replaced by 1050 in 2013).


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> But what "supporting a socket" means?


I dont know... but it's clear many here believe that statement includes all chipsets. Nobody knows the reason why, if this is actually true, msi won't do it. But since the title used "betrayal" and first sentence "greedy msi" it set the tone for this sensationalist 'news' post.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

tigger said:


> https://community.amd.com/thread/238039


This wasn't posted (nor confirmed) by an AMD employee. It's an interpretation - much like yours. 


> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/motherboard-bios-update-amd-ryzen-3000-cpus,38872.html


From this text:
"AGESA (AMD Generic Encapsulated Software Architecture) microcode version 0.0.7.x is *allegedly *designed to support the AMD Zen 2 processor microarchitecture and Ryzen 3000-series processors."
Weak.


> My B350 has been updated to agesa 0072, *therefore supports Zen2*, also states on the link, the bios is 2MB larger. My bios went from 8MB to 10.xMB


Can you point the exact part of file description which says "Zen 2"?

So isn't this whole "supports Zen 2" is built around interpretations and hopes?


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

*In an ideal world* it should mean that when your motherboard has proper VRM, enough BIOS "space" & everything else - you should be able to use the latest gen CPU, even if with some compromises like PBO/2, XFR missing. However with the incumbent leader what we got is quad core for a decade, shape shifting TDP (9900k  95W) besides arbitrary ucode which literally BSOD OCed chips on non Z boards. The same boards which allowed OCing for a year to drive Intel sales up, now didn't work because Intel had a change of heart!

For AMD as well it'd be bad PR, so they must do what they can to make sure MSI allows Zen2 compatibility wherever possible.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> This wasn't posted (nor confirmed) by an AMD employee. It's an interpretation - much like yours.
> 
> From this text:
> "AGESA (AMD Generic Encapsulated Software Architecture) microcode version 0.0.7.x is *allegedly *designed to support the AMD Zen 2 processor microarchitecture and Ryzen 3000-series processors."
> ...



The community AMD link states "Adds support for upcoming Zen 2 processors"  That is what the agesa 0072 update is for, probably also why it is 2MB larger, unless you are a div or obtuse, it is plainly obvious as Asus states, support for upcoming processors, also the fact that the bios is 2MB larger than previously.


----------



## s8wc3 (Apr 16, 2019)

If the BIOS is really the issue, I think MSI should sell larger BIOS chips preflashed with the new firmware for a couple bucks, maybe thru their website or email their support. I don't think people upgrading their own CPUs will have any issue also swapping in a new chip. Oh wait, you used surface mount BIOS chips!! ROFL. Guess ya fucked then


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> I dont know... but it's clear many here believe that statement includes all chipsets. Nobody knows the reason why, if this is actually true, msi won't do it. But since the title used "betrayal" and first sentence "greedy msi" it set the tone for this sensationalist 'news' post.


I've openly said what I think about btarunr's journalism and that's really not the topic here.

I do believe this is all built on hopes. And I'm asking for an official confirmation, which no one here can provide.


R0H1T said:


> *In an ideal world* it should mean that when your motherboard has proper VRM, enough BIOS "space" & everything else - you should be able to use the latest gen CPU, even if with some compromises like PBO/2, XFR missing. However with the incumbent leader what we got is quad core for a decade, shape shifting TDP (9900k  95W) besides arbitrary ucode which literally BSOD OCed chips on non Z boards. The same boards which allowed OCing for a year to drive Intel sales up, now didn't work because Intel had a change of heart!
> 
> For AMD as well it'd be bad PR, so they must do what they can to make sure MSI allows Zen2 compatibility wherever possible.


But you're one of members of this forum who criticize OEMs for not investing more into AM4 platform. Do you still think AMD is a stable and safe partner for these companies? 
Hype, hopes, ideal world, should, maybe...

And BTW: what about other chipsets? Why are why only talking about X370?
Ryzen is a SoC - I'm sure many people bought the cheaper chipset assuming it won't compromise functionality or compatibility (and possibly also because "AMD experts" on this forum said that  ).

I've checked a few ASUS mobos and both B350 and A320 got the AGESA 0072 as well. Yet, they're never mentioned in "news". Maybe they won't support as many "upcoming CPUs" as X370 despite getting the same update?


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 16, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> So one bad fan on a GPU 4 generations ago, and that makes MSI crap?  The rest of your statement is laughable, as their 9xx and 10xx series GPU’s have been consistently high quality and cooling.
> 
> Also, GPU’s and motherboards are separate issues.  Let’s keep them that way.


My MSI 780 Ti Gaming was awesome, I was a little suspicious buying it as an used card, but it was truly a great card. And I've heard nothing but positive opinions from MSI cards for many years now.

My truly bad experience from MSI was from a nForce 650i SLI board almost a decade ago, it just died suddenly without any warnings.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> But you're one of members of this forum who criticize OEMs for not investing more into AM4 platform. Do you still think AMD is a stable and safe partner for these companies?


If you're talking only about MB then no I don't believe many of these partners are abandoning or running away from the AM4 platform though MSI seems to be on a "chop your own two feet" streak. If it's about other products, I've said that it could be down to AMD's supply limitations.


notb said:


> And BTW: what about other chipsets? Why are why only talking about X370?


Segmentation, sadly AMD isn't a charity as I or some others might want it to be. It's the same reason (among others) why we have RX 570, Vega 56.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Can you point the exact part of file description which says "Zen 2"? So isn't this whole "supports Zen 2" is built around interpretations and hopes?



*'' UPDATE AGESA 0072 FOR THE UPCOMING PROCESSORS ''*

So here we have some rational explanations to your comment :

1) You  have some crazy leaks to share  about AMD supporting Intel Comet Lake on their 300 series .
2) Zen 3 is coming sooner than what we thought .
3 ) You are blatantly trolling for some unkown reason .

Yeah doesn't take a phd to figure out  there's only 1 rational explanation  !


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> 3 ) You are blatantly trolling for some unkown reason .


Few posts ago you said that ASUS "is already supporting Zen 2 on their 300series".
It's a very important piece of information, but I haven't seen an official confirmation. It seems you have. I'm simply asking for a source.
Isn't this what forums were invented for? Talking?


----------



## jigar2speed (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> Yeah even more sad that nothing in your comment indicates you are being sacrastic but i guess we are supposed to read through peoples minds nowadays ....



I think you still don't know what sad part is, let alone the sarcasm. 

You can't read through people's mind, its impossible over internet and that's the fun sarcasm was made to confuse the stupid. 

PS: not calling you stupid, just incase you didn't get the sarcasm again


----------



## Assimilator (Apr 16, 2019)

r00lz said:


> MSI and Gigabyte dont bother about older than 1 year old motherboard BIOS in general. Longest support of Motherboard BIOS has ASUS and ASrock



Nonsense: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-Z77X-UD5H-rev-10#support-dl-bios

Board released 2012, most recent public BIOS released 2017, I am running a beta BIOS that was released last year with the Spectre patches (ask Gigabyte customer support and they will provide). 6 years of BIOS updates and counting.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 16, 2019)

medi01 said:


> MSI's CEO has claimed commitment to get Intel's market share up.
> Hurting own AMD mainboard sales might be part of the grand plan.




thank you for mentioning this, I had no idea. apparently I am never buying MSI ever again.  especially since 3700x is going to kick Intel's ass this summer 

I think I will do ASRock X570 Taichi mobo and 3700x, and retire for a solid 4-7 years.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Apr 16, 2019)

Asrock website mentions the following for the x470 Tai Chi bios update released 2019/4/9:

"1.Support new Athlon 2xxGE series APU.
2.Update AMD AGESA to 0.0.7.2"

https://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/X470 Taichi/index.asp#BIOS

Don't know who would put an Athlon cpu on this motherboard, but you can now I guess.  It all seems odd to go through a full firmware update just for the little Athlon cpus...  all seems pretty hush-hush...


----------



## zxz12 (Apr 16, 2019)

I have MSI Krait Gaming X370 and I bought it with perspective to upgrade to 3rd gen Ryzen. I was going to buy next week new MSI monitor, but if they don't refute this information soon, I will have nothing from MSI anymore, never.


----------



## RH92 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Few posts ago you said that ASUS "is already supporting Zen 2 on their 300series".
> It's a very important piece of information, but I haven't seen an official confirmation. It seems you have. I'm simply asking for a source.
> Isn't this what forums were invented for? Talking?



The thing is you have been provided with a source you just refuse to read it . I don't know what kind of official confirmation you are waiting for ......* UPDATE AGESA 0072 FOR THE UPCOMING PROCESSORS *  is pretty  much self explanatory , you can read the same message when bios got updated to AGESA 1071 for Zen+ ( obviously it didn't say Zen +  )  , it's a generic message they are not going to list you all the Zen 2 processors supported since that info is still under NDA   . *It doesn't get more official than this !*


----------



## king of swag187 (Apr 16, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I suppose that could be true if MSI spells AMD.


But the promise of unlimited upgrade potential is no longer true, is it not?


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

RH92 said:


> The thing is you have been provided with a source you just refuse to read it . I don't know what kind of official confirmation you are waiting for ......


Official article on either AMD's or mobo makers' website. Normal stuff.


> *UPDATE AGESA 0072 FOR THE UPCOMING PROCESSORS *  is pretty  much self explanatory , you can read the same message when bios got updated to AGESA 1071 for Zen+ ( obviously it didn't say Zen +  )  , it's a generic message they are not going to list you all the Zen 2 processors supported since that info is still under NDA   .


I'm not sure how AMD community forum works.
The author "black_zion" is not an AMD employee, right?
https://community.amd.com/thread/238039
Is this the only source that connects those AGESA and Zen 2? That's pretty weak.

If I posted a thread that this AGESA provides Zen 3 compatibility, would someone from AMD come to correct it?


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

MSI will be coming out with a proper statement to clarify the position soon.
Stay tuned to your reputable news sites/MSI for info. 

Hint: it supports them...but what exactly?


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 16, 2019)

king of swag187 said:


> But the promise of unlimited upgrade potential is no longer true, is it not?



Well, unlimited?  No, certainly not.  I believe what they said was that they were using AM4 through 2020.  Unlimited would carry past 2020, would it not?


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 16, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While the wording is unprofessional, the 16MB bios arguement is horsecrap.

I'm not just talking out of my rear either, bios modding is something I do and did for Ryzen.  I know how much free space is on these boards, and it is a lot.



RH92 said:


> True Guru 3D did some proper work instead of simply calling MSI greedy but still doesn't explain why Asus has already pushed bios with Zen 2 support on their 300 series  so the chip limitation argument  can't explain everything !



As I said, that arguement is factually false.  Do ya'll need a layout screenshot or something?


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Hint: it supports them...but what exactly?


"Upcoming processors"? ;-)


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> If I posted a thread that this AGESA provides Zen 3 compatibility, would someone from AMD come to correct it?



No, but every bios modder in town (myself included) would likely call you out.  I personally haven't checked the microcode yet but will do so now.


----------



## londiste (Apr 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> While the wording is unprofessional, the 16MB bios arguement is horsecrap.
> I'm not just talking out of my rear either, bios modding is something I do and did for Ryzen.  I know how much free space is on these boards, and it is a lot.


What was the deal last summer with some motherboards dropping Bristol Ridge support and 4xx series boards getting 256mbit chips?


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 16, 2019)

londiste said:


> What was the deal last summer with some motherboards dropping Bristol Ridge support and 4xx series boards getting 256mbit chips?



Bristol ridge?  That's the APU right?  Probably GOP tables and sub-vbios for the igpu.  Those can be a little hefty actually.

That is an interesting theory.  It could be they are so insistent on cramming igpu support in there that they are filling the chips literally with OTHER vbioses for many subtypes of igpus that may or may not be installed.

That'd be astonishingly inefficient, but would explain the arguement and also why I don't see it...  I always rip the igpu bioses out!

As for "why 256mbit chips?" it's not due to size needs I think as much as manufacturing has largely shifted to them and they are cheap now.


----------



## londiste (Apr 16, 2019)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/bdv775
tl;dr
Wrong info.

Translation by someone in Reddit thread:


> "Sadly the informaton regarding the support of upcoming AMD CPUs on the X370 Titanium was wrong.
> We want to shed light on this situation.
> Currently we are testing our current mainboard portfolio with MSI 300 and 400 chipsets for compability with upcoming AMD Ryzen processors. Of course we want to provide support for upcoming AMD Ryzen processors on as many mainboards as possible.
> Before AMD launches the next generation of CPUs MSI will provide a comprehensive list of compatible MSI AM4 mainboards. We are sorry for the misunderstanding."



@btarunr you might want to add that to the story


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> "Upcoming processors"? ;-)


Chipsets. Stick with us.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

londiste said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/bdv775
> tl;dr
> Wrong info.


I don't see how this is an improvement over the earlier rumor.
They're testing compatibility.
They want to support upcoming Ryzen processors on as many motherboards as they can.
They will provide a list of compatible AM4 motherboards.

This is miles away from "all Ryzen work on all AM4" that many here hoped for. It seems there is in fact a big probability that some existing AM4 mobos won't work with at least some of Zen2 CPUs.


notb said:


> "Upcoming processors"? ;-)


... and this turned out to be correct! :-D The "official response" doesn't mention neither "Zen 2" nor "Ryzen 3000-series".


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> This is miles away from "all Ryzen work on all AM4" that many here hoped for.


It's also approximately the same distance away from "betrayal" and "greed".

It's a shame the direction TPU is going in with news and some reviews. Grammar mistakes (some not corrected after it was mentioned), blatent misrepresentation (and no retraction) of information, copy/paste news, zero follow up by a reviewer when a user asks a question. My RSS feed just got leaner. Terrible.

Wait for MSI to officially respond, not round 2 of Tier 1 muppet support.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> This is miles away from "*all Ryzen work on all AM4*" that many here hoped for. It seems there is in fact a big probability that some existing AM4 mobos won't work with at least some of Zen2 CPUs.


And now you've gone into the "I know it's not possible, yet I'll say it anyway" territory. That's never been the case especially with high end CPUs, ever - not with FX9590, 1950x, 2990WX, 9900k, 9990XE nor W3175x


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2019)

medi01 said:


> MSI's CEO has claimed commitment to get Intel's market share up.


Unless you have a credible citation, I'm calling BS on this...


medi01 said:


> Hurting own AMD mainboard sales might be part of the grand plan.


And this. No company is going hurt it's own bottomline like that.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> It's also approximately the same distance away from "betrayal" and "greed".
> 
> It's a shame the direction TPU is going in with news and some reviews. Grammar mistakes (some not corrected after it was mentioned), blatent misrepresentation (and no retraction) of information, copy/paste news, zero follow up by a reviewer when a user asks a question. My RSS feed just got leaner. Terrible.


Well... TPU is what it is. Nothing we can do about it.
I mean: in the end they even won the software key case. Close few threads, remove few posts, give few warnings. Very basic measures clearly worked. There's hardly any reaction to the key news they posted today. 


> Wait for MSI to officially respond, not round 2 of Tier 1 muppet support.


The only thing I'm interested in is the official CPU compatibility list. Until the add rows there (even temporary ones like "Ryzen 3000-series") it's all just curiosities.


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Unless you have a credible citation, I'm calling BS on this...


Oh, boy, are you judging me by *greenboi standards*?






https://www.tomshardware.com/news/msi-ceo-interview-intel-shortage-amd,38473.html


The notebook  part is amazing on its own.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

That's a tongue in cheek comment, nothing to be upset about.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> Well... TPU is what it is. Nothing we can do about it.
> I mean: in the end they even won the software key case. Close few threads, remove few posts, give few warnings. Very basic measures clearly worked. There's hardly any reaction to the key news they posted today.
> 
> The only thing I'm interested in is the official CPU compatibility list. Until the add rows there (even temporary ones like "Ryzen 3000-series") it's all just curiosities.



Egg and face, seems you were wrong, and 300 series will support zen2. This is the reason why Asus and the others updated the 300 MB's as they must have been pretty darn confident they were compatible. 

Go climb back under your rock......


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> nothing to be upset about.


Yeah, not like we didn't see something like that before, and with Compaq, no less, and when AMD was offering them CPUs for free.





Just a market Jaggernaut having certain kind of influence, ya know. It's MSI itself kinda concluding that, nobody forced them to, right?


----------



## champsilva (Apr 16, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/r...-older-300-series-due-to-bios-limitation.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know this was a later response right?


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

You said......


medi01 said:


> MSI's CEO has claimed commitment to get Intel's market share up.
> Hurting own AMD mainboard sales might be part of the grand plan.


I highly doubt they will shoot themselves in the foot to bring back Intel. All this is saying is that they will CONTINUE to use Intel chips in their laptops and such which, by his own admission, isn't having supply issues since laptops come before desktop. You also neglected to list the other reasons why they currently do not use AMD processors in their laptops... let's go ahead and post those.



> *Experimentation:* MSI is a smaller company than some and can't afford to experiment with different platforms right now. "I always say 'we are not big enough to make it so complicated,'" he told us. He cited all of the different gaming laptop SKUs MSI makes, from the high-end GT series to the budget GLs, when saying that their lineup is already pretty complex. He also posited that it, given the company's focus on optimizing the user experience, going with AMD adds another layer of complexity.
> *Prior bad experience:* MSI has used AMD processors in its systems before, but apparently had a bad experience. "At that time, their product was not right and their support was not that good," Chiang said. He didn't say which AMD CPU he was referring to, but we know that 2012's MSI GX60 had an AMD A10 chip inside. Our sister site, Laptop Mag, reviewed that laptop at the time and really liked the performance and battery life.


They will not sacrifice their current breadwinner on the mobo side of things to go all in with Intel to gain market share when they get their shit straight. Surely they will run a promo or something, that's normal. Otherwise, your assertion leaves a lot to be desired from the quoted text.


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> I highly doubt


What to do, *when MSI CEO literally states he'd "sit down with" Intel*, once supply issues are resolved, on "h*ow to get their market share back*"?
Or when MSI CEO says, *doing notebooks wouldn't be that nice, because of those special relationships with Intel*?

Try to downplay it with own invaluable "doubts".
Cool.

So, after all, he wouldn't want to ruin his own company, would he? And figure, when there is next shortage, he gets none of those goddamnawfulgamingperf Intel notebook chips?
So it's pure and clear business. Nothing to be alarmed about.
Basic capitalism.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2019)

medi01 said:


> Oh, boy, are you judging me by *greenboi standards*?
> 
> View attachment 121184
> 
> ...


Wow, context much? Not only that statement, but the rest of the interview. What you did earlier is called "cherry-picking" a statement to fit your personal narrative. Chiang did not imply that MSI was going to help Intel raise it's market share at the cost of it's own AMD business.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 16, 2019)

champsilva said:


> You know this was a later response right?



Yes.  I'm still kinda ashamed there are no corrections here...


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> "cherry-picking" a statement


On which bloody planet is this "cherry picking a statement", the whole f*kcing conversation was cited verbatim:








lexluthermiester said:


> Chiang did not imply that MSI was going to help Intel raise it's market share at the cost of it's own AMD business.


-MSI is working on getting Intel's share back
-No way, I call BS!
-<citation>
-Oh, oh, that, but that's not at MSI's expense!

Pathetic.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2019)

medi01 said:


> On which bloody planet is this "cherry picking a statement", the whole f*kcing conversation was cited verbatim:


Except that you didn't quote the whole conversation. You quoted one sentence(the highlighted one) and took it out of context. Example;


medi01 said:


> -MSI is working on getting Intel's share back


That is not what Chiang said or even how he said it.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

And from MSI themselves in my inbox...............


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> And from MSI themselves in my inbox...............
> 
> View attachment 121188


LOL@"Activate Windows"


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> And from MSI themselves in my inbox...............


So pretty much the same text we got on Reddit.
Verifying potential compatibility (I love the wording).
Testing.
A list of compatible mobos will be released later (suggesting: not every).

Tasty detail:
"Below is a full list of upcoming BIOS versions which include compatibility for the next-gen *AMD APUs* for our 300-Series and 400-Series AM4 motherboards"


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> So pretty much the same text we got on Reddit.


Sure... just not in German, and official (first thing in the thread that was from a good source), not from a redditor. 



zOMG..... "BETRAYALz"....... and "GREEDzzzz"


----------



## champsilva (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> And from MSI themselves in my inbox...............
> 
> View attachment 121188View attachment 121190View attachment 121191



Can you click in the link and send us? Usually e-mails has an "external view"


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

Sorry, no. It is all there.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Sure... just not in German, and official (first thing in the thread that was from a good source), not from a redditor.


What's wrong with German? Racist! :-D


> zOMG..... "BETRAYALz"....... and "GREEDzzzz"


Now I'm really looking forward to the Zen2 launch and discussions on this forum. This is going to be sooo entertaining.

Just imagine all the threads about flashing motherboards with incompatible BIOS that supports Zen2. :-D


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 16, 2019)

Anything AMD is entertaining, in Dozer days it was like an inevitable train-wreck - these days it might just be the opposite!


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 16, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Sure... just not in German, and official (first thing in the thread that was from a good source), not from a redditor.
> 
> 
> 
> zOMG..... "BETRAYALz"....... and "GREEDzzzz"



Hey, all those pitch forks are sharpened and gas prices are climbing so those torches have some investments.  I bet this won't end here.


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Except that you didn't quote the whole conversation


Let me try again:






Maybe Tom pulled this HALF A FREAKING PAGE excerpt out of context? Evil, EVIL TOM!
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/msi-ceo-interview-intel-shortage-amd,38473.html

What MSI's CEO did, is merely naive. 
*I couldn't blame small companies head for bending backwards for market Juggernaut.*
From working with Intel on how to get Intel's share back from AMD, to not pissing intel off by releasing AMD notebooks.


But it shows how insanely f*cked up things are.

And mental gymnastics of some of the users here, to somehow twist it is hardly amusing.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> What's wrong with German? Racist! :-D
> 
> Now I'm really looking forward to the Zen2 launch and discussions on this forum. This is going to be sooo entertaining.
> 
> Just imagine all the threads about flashing motherboards with incompatible BIOS that supports Zen2. :-D


I can't read/speak it. Achtung!

You all can cover the all the bios flashing and whining... surely someone will step up, call themselves a guru, and add it to their signature! Saved! 


medi01 said:


> And mental gymnastics of some of the users here, to somehow twist it is hardly amusing.


Funny.. I was thinking the same thing. The incredible elastic brain!

Reminds me the PUBG where it was sworn up and down they found a cheater who killed them due to how they were interacting with the world. Another plausible explanation of those listed actions was suggested and it was poopooed. To this day, that user has not been banned (and it was over a month ago at this point). Point is, to me, looking at the big picture and ALL the reasons he mentioned, I don't believe there will be anything dubious to the actions. Again promotions, lower prices... all part of it. It's not like finding these CPUs is actually rare. I can go on any etailer and find them or Microcenter, Fry's, w/e. Why not offer lower pricing on something that now(when the shortage lessens) has more supply in the market? Isn't this how it works? I mean, I see what you are saying, but there is literally no smoking gun here to be so absolute (and showing great huberis). I think its open to a more broad interpretation.

Again, the notebooks argument is just.... its not an argument to me. He listed three reasons, but you hang your hat on one, seemingly dismissing the others while formulating your opinion.

Anyway, taking the blue pill on this one. Peace out.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2019)

medi01 said:


> And mental gymnastics of some of the users here, to somehow twist it is hardly amusing.


Perhaps, but we aren't the ones hurling insults, posting in a bold huge font(effectively screaming online) and generally acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum.


medi01 said:


> What MSI's CEO did, is merely naive.
> *I couldn't blame small companies head for bending backwards for market Juggernaut.*
> From working with Intel on how to get Intel's share back from AMD, to not pissing intel off by releasing AMD notebooks.


MSI is not a small company and they are not pandering to the whims of Intel. Again you seem to misunderstand what Chiang was saying(clearly tongue-in-cheek).


----------



## medi01 (Apr 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> MSI is not a small company and they are not pandering to the whims of Intel.


Stating THIS in THIS thread, then wondering, why someone posts in bold.



lexluthermiester said:


> acting like a child


Of all comments, the most amazing mind-twist was that this was pulling words out of its context:





Semmelweis reflex, I guess.


----------



## notb (Apr 16, 2019)

medi01 said:


> (..)


How many more times are you going to post the same screenshot? What's wrong with you?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2019)

notb said:


> How many more times are you going to post the same screenshot? What's wrong with you?


It's supposed to be against forum rules, something about spamming..


----------



## Arjai (Apr 16, 2019)

Well, I have no way of recovering the time spent reading through the 11 pages of posts, in this thread.
However, I have to say, I have learned plenty about a few members here.  I don't hold grudges, one has to earn that from me. 

What I found most interesting were these three quotes, and what I share with them...


mstenholm said:


> Please stay out off this discussing.





newtekie1 said:


> Saw this coming back when AMD announced they'd "use" AM4 for at least 10 years. I said then, just because they were going to keep using the socket doesn't mean the old motherboards will support the new processors.





thebluebumblebee said:


> It is so sad to see TPU going the way of Fake News.  The fact that TPU no longer seems to understand the difference between a news post and an editorial is disappointing.
> 
> To think that MSI doesn't know the customer retention value of a "simple BIOS update".....(I'll get in trouble if I complete this sentence)
> Upon what knowledge does the author assert that all it takes is a "simple BIOS update"?
> ...


who knew a little blue badge was so calming?


----------



## Valkrys (Apr 17, 2019)

GG you took the word of a monkey at a desk. Waiting for you to link your follow up article to this one and mark it as updated. I appreciate the tenacity, but perhaps you should exercise some critical thought and perhaps ask around before posting stuff like this. The entire internet lit on fire over a single vendor potentially not abiding by AMD's guidelines. It's both good and bad... But kind of screams of "I couldn't be bothered." Your publication is widely accepted as being a reputable source, it would be good practice to not act like Gamer Meld. For the record I have refused to buy any MSI mobo since I dealt with the labyrinth that was their x58 pro-e bios. Their physical PCB design for 300 series boards didn't really help.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 17, 2019)

Valkrys said:


> Waiting for you to link your follow up article to this one and mark it as updated.



That actually happened well before you posted this.  GG.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 17, 2019)

Valkrys said:


> Waiting for you to link your follow up article to this one and mark it as updated.


Perhaps, if you weren't focused on being a troll, you would know that such has already been done. Observe;
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...cpu-support-on-300-series-motherboards.254669


----------



## thebluebumblebee (Apr 17, 2019)

Arjai said:


> who knew a little blue badge was so calming?


As long as you don't mind the BOHICA with every other CPU generation, whether it's needed or not.  How many chipsets did Intel have for DDR3?  (30,40,50,60,70,80,90)


----------



## TechCat (Apr 17, 2019)

Mussels said:


> How is something in writing from the company itself, rumour?


There is no copy of the question asked nor the actual response.  Just a statement of non compatibility which you blame on AMD failing to keep their promise.  Pretty sure its a BIOS issue, which I think is dawning on you.


----------



## londiste (Apr 17, 2019)

thebluebumblebee said:


> As long as you don't mind the BOHICA with every other CPU generation, whether it's needed or not.  How many chipsets did Intel have for DDR3?  (30,40,50,60,70,80,90)


I wonder why not look at DDR4 chipsets?
Intel has had 3 since 2015 - 100/200/300.
AMD has had 2 since 2017 - 300/400.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

Technically they're more than 3, Intel has at least 3 chipsets per gen of core - I don't recall the last one because I stopped counting after z390. AMD has the same atm but Intel also changed sockets thrice(?) in this time IIRC.


----------



## londiste (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Technically they're more than 3, Intel has at least 3 chipsets per gen of core - I don't recall the last one because I stopped counting after z390. AMD has the same atm but Intel also changed sockets thrice(?) in this time IIRC.


What time? 

*Intel:*
DDR3: 
- 2007-2008: LGA775 (30/40 series), Core2Duo/Quad - Technically DDR3 but most boards were DDR2
- 2009-2010: s1156 (50 series), Nehalem
- 2011-2012: s1155 (60/70 series), Sandy/Ivy Bridge
- 2013-2014: s1150 (80/90 series), Haswell/Haswell Refresh/Broadwell
DDR4:
- 2015-2016: s1151 (100/200 series), Skylake/Kaby Lake
- 2017-2018: s1151v2 (300 series), Coffee Lake/Coffee Lake Refresh

*AMD:*
DDR3:
- 2007-2008: AM2/AM2+/AM3 (600/700 series) - DDR2/DDR3, based on socket
- 2010-2011: AM3/AM3+ (800/900 series)
DDR4:
- 2017-2018: AM4 (300/400 series)

AMD practically was not competing for about 5 years there.


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 17, 2019)

londiste said:


> What time?
> 
> *Intel:*
> DDR3:
> ...


Whey they should have made new chipsets, since they didn't make any new CPUs? They had the FX lineup as the top series from 2012 to 2017..


----------



## londiste (Apr 17, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> Whey they should have made new chipsets, since they didn't make any new CPUs? They had the FX lineup as the top series from 2012 to 2017..


They had no reason to create new chipsets or sockets during that time.
The point was it is not exactly fair to compare this directly to amount of chipsets Intel produced during the same time in order to support CPUs that had comparatively more changes in them.


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 17, 2019)

londiste said:


> They had no reason to create new chipsets or sockets during that time.
> The point was it is not exactly fair to compare this directly to amount of chipsets Intel produced during the same time in order to support CPUs that had comparatively more changes in them.


Ah, then I exactly agree with you.


----------



## notb (Apr 17, 2019)

londiste said:


> They had no reason to create new chipsets or sockets during that time.
> The point was it is not exactly fair to compare this directly to amount of chipsets Intel produced during the same time in order to support CPUs that had comparatively more changes in them.


Yup. Looking at the period when AMD and Intel offered similar products, they also had similar chipset/socket lifetimes.
If it turns out AM4 covers just 3 generations (and 3rd one just partly), then it won't be much better than what Intel has been doing lately.

It's a bit like when Ryzen came out and AMD fanboys shouted: +50% in one generation! Intel does +5%!
:-D


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 17, 2019)

notb said:


> It's a bit like when Ryzen came out and AMD fanboys shouted: +50% in one generation! Intel does +5%!
> :-D


At least there's IPC boost, not like Intel where there's just MOAR CORES and higher clocks. The IPC is identical since Skylake.


----------



## notb (Apr 17, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> At least there's IPC boost, not like Intel where there's just MOAR CORES and higher clocks. The IPC is identical since Skylake.


The "empirical" properties are important: performance, price, size and power consumption. It doesn't matter how the manufacturer gets there. Why do you care so much? Other than discrediting Intel, obviously.

In recent years Intel made architectural choices that let them utilize high clocks (and constantly improve them).
AMD, when going from FX to Ryzen, focused on IPC, but sacrificed clocks.
2 different approaches, same aim: more performance.

And what do you think about AVX-512? Does it tick your need for IPC improvement?

Currently AMD is in the phase of increasing clocks and core count (Zen 2). Intel is working on a new architecture (Ice Lake).
This makes me wonder:
If Ice Lake gives us big IPC increase, will you praise shift to praising Intel?


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 17, 2019)

I had Intel CPUs pretty many years in my main rig; last AMD chip in my gaming PC was Phenom II X4 965 BE from 2011-2013. Went with Z68 -> Z87 -> Z170 -> X99 before going back to AMD.



notb said:


> AMD, when going from FX to Ryzen, focused on IPC, but sacrificed clocks.


Just like Intel did when they moved from Pentium D to Core 2 Duo. Everything was better; lower power consumption, much better performance..



> If Ice Lake gives us big IPC increase, will you praise shift to praising Intel?


Hard to say, but if it's like they did with Kaby -> Coffee that they fked up compatibility (even though the architecture is 100% identical de facto, and people has showed the middle finger back to Intel with modified Z170/Z270 motherboards), then nope.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 17, 2019)

So many riding the soap box of justice... its cute.


----------



## notb (Apr 17, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I had Intel CPUs pretty many years in my main rig; last AMD chip in my gaming PC was Phenom II X4 965 BE from 2011-2013. Went with Z68 -> Z87 -> Z170 -> X99 before going back to AMD.


And this is important to mention because...?


> Just like Intel did when they moved from Pentium D to Core 2 Duo. Everything was better; lower power consumption, much better performance..


Of course. That's why you design a new architecture - to have a big leap in whatever can be improved.

But new architecture is a big investment. You have to keep selling it for years to make the whole venture profitable. Potential for improvement in that period is very limited.

Next big architectural leap for Intel will come with Ice Lake (or whatever it's called). It will be a totally new product much like Ryzen has been: both architecture on node (at least it should be...). The improvement could be enormous.


> Hard to say, but if it's like they did with Kaby -> Coffee that they fked up compatibility (even though the architecture is 100% identical de facto, and people has showed the middle finger back to Intel with modified Z170/Z270 motherboards), then nope.


You see. So you're not really after performance or IPC. You simply don't like the way Intel does their business. You're ready to buy a potentially worse product from a competition that you find more "morally acceptable". 

To be honest, I have nothing against it. You're right.
I buy the slightly more expensive chicken because I've been to a low-cost farm and thinking about it makes me want to vomit. But it's a totally irrational choice economically speaking. I have no proof that the meat is healthier or tastier. I even don't know if that kind of farming is bad for birds. Maybe chickens like to be herded in small space, covered in shit? No one ever asked them.

It's just nice when people admit what their true reasons are. No excuses about IPC and dwarves.


----------



## Kissamies (Apr 17, 2019)

I won't even bother continuing, this is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks off the pieces, craps on the table and claims victory.


----------



## notb (Apr 17, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I won't even bother continuing, this is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks off the pieces, craps on the table and claims victory.


Well, if you have no more arguments, why not say it? It's just like with the CPU choice. What's the point of all these excuses? IPC, pigeons?


----------



## BetrayerX (Apr 18, 2019)

Probably I'm late (Over 200 comments), but:
https://www.msi.com/news/detail/4c78f7b58f4de12ed2cab9bcb9ec0ba0


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 18, 2019)

Adnel Ortiz said:


> Probably I'm late (Over 200 comments), but:
> https://www.msi.com/news/detail/4c78f7b58f4de12ed2cab9bcb9ec0ba0


Nice! Welcome to the TPU forums!


----------



## notb (Apr 18, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nice! Welcome to the TPU forums!


It's the same information MSI put in e-mails. And probably not really on topic, since it seems APUs will be Zen+.

Where are Ryzen 3000-series (Zen2) expected to launch anyway? Q3?


----------



## Patriot (Apr 19, 2019)

Adnel Ortiz said:


> Probably I'm late (Over 200 comments), but:
> https://www.msi.com/news/detail/4c78f7b58f4de12ed2cab9bcb9ec0ba0



Of note, they are not confirming Zen 2 support, only intentions to support it on boards that prove compatible.
They are also confirming as many have postulated that the new roms that have recently arrived are for the Zen+ 3000 series APU's not Zen 2.

I would expect mixed compatibility for higher tdp chips and perhaps not all boards getting top slot pcie 4 certification.
Time will tell what turns out to be true... Hopefully in the next 3mo.   
It is in the best interest of the board manufacturers to give a reason to upgrade and a reason to stay brand loyal...


----------



## notb (Apr 19, 2019)

Patriot said:


> It is in the best interest of the board manufacturers to give a reason to upgrade and a reason to stay brand loyal...


Not exactly. They all make very similar products. Clients move around, but have to buy something anyway. In such markets brand loyalty has lower priority. You aim the customers you find most attractive.

Especially for a company like MSI, specializing in gaming products and selling countless different things (both electronics and gadgets/apparel), it makes a lot of sense to cater towards people that spend a lot.


----------



## Melvis (Apr 19, 2019)

tigger said:


> Funny how my Asus B350 got updated to Agesa 0.0.7.2 so does in fact support the new 3000 series, only Asus , ASRock and Biostar have released new Bios updates to the latest Agesa 0.0.7.2 code that was recently released just a few weeks ago, Is it only MSI that does not?



No my MSI X470 Mobo has the new BIOS update sitting there ready for the new 3000Series CPU's its been there for weeks now when MSI announced it


----------



## notb (Apr 19, 2019)

Melvis said:


> No my MSI X470 Mobo has the new BIOS update sitting there ready for the new 3000Series CPU's its been there for weeks now when MSI announced it


3000-series APUs.

But being a top last-gen chipset, there's a good chance it'll support Ryzen 3000-series as well.
I mean: if it doesn't, then it would likely mean nothing does and you have to buy a chipset launched for Zen2...


----------



## BetrayerX (Apr 19, 2019)

Patriot said:


> Of note, they are not confirming Zen 2 support, only intentions to support it on boards that prove compatible.
> They are also confirming as many have postulated that the new roms that have recently arrived are for the Zen+ 3000 series APU's not Zen 2.
> 
> I would expect mixed compatibility for higher tdp chips and perhaps not all boards getting top slot pcie 4 certification.
> ...



Hardware Unboxed took what I posted as a way to disprove the original article's meeting.

But what you say, I actually agree. Was talking to a friend about it, and you might see problems with the 12/24 and or 18/36 cores versions on some cheaper mobos. But many of those 350's do support 95W and over TDP and most of people overclocking are around 120W TDP give or take. In theory this might make the boards able to support these new CPU, but at the same time... the overclocking capabilities should be put to the test.... and of course, any new features will not be added thru a BIOS update.

Cheers.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 19, 2019)

Patriot said:


> only intentions to support it on boards that prove compatible.


Which is, by design, all of them per AMD spec.



Adnel Ortiz said:


> But many of those 350's do support 95W and over TDP and most of people overclocking are around 120W TDP give or take. In theory this might make the boards able to support these new CPU, but at the same time... the overclocking capabilities should be put to the test....


Ah but remember, Ryzen 3 is 7nm based, all of them. TDP for each model is reduced not increased so TDP should never be an issue as the boards can handle the wattage requirements of Ryzen1&2 already. Ryzen3 should be a breeze.


----------



## notb (Apr 19, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ah but remember, Ryzen 3 is 7nm based, all of them. TDP for each model is reduced not increased so TDP should never be an issue as the boards can handle the wattage requirements of Ryzen1&2 already. Ryzen3 should be a breeze.


I don't know where do you get all that optimism.

AMD is expected to launch at least 12-core CPUs. Many hope for 16-core.
There is no way 7nm is twice as efficient as 14nm. These CPUs will use more power.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 19, 2019)

notb said:


> I don't know where do you get all that optimism.
> 
> AMD is expected to launch at least 12-core CPUs. Many hope for 16-core.
> There is no way 7nm is twice as efficient as 14nm. These CPUs will use more power.


Core for core, power usage *WILL* be lower. As a package it will depend on how many cores are present, the clock speed and what the rated TDP will be.


----------



## Melvis (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> 3000-series APUs.
> 
> But being a top last-gen chipset, there's a good chance it'll support Ryzen 3000-series as well.
> I mean: if it doesn't, then it would likely mean nothing does and you have to buy a chipset launched for Zen2...



It will be for all AMD Zen 2 CPU's, if anything it might not be fore the APU's at all, APU's most likely come later


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 20, 2019)

Melvis said:


> It will be for all AMD Zen 2 CPU's, if anything it might not be fore the APU's at all, APU's most likely come later


3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1.


----------



## notb (Apr 20, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Core for core, power usage *WILL* be lower. As a package it will depend on how many cores are present, the clock speed and what the rated TDP will be.


But the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.
I think most people hope that they'll be able to upgrade to more cores - not the same number of them, just using 20% less power.


Melvis said:


> It will be for all AMD Zen 2 CPU's, if anything it might not be fore the APU's at all, APU's most likely come later


For such an AMD fan, you're quite badly informed.
Currently available BIOS upgrades are for 3000-series APUs, which will be based on Zen+. So basically, it's the same tech these motherboards support already - they just need additional data to detect them.
3000-series APUs will likely be launched in May.

Ryzen 3000-series based on Zen 2 (chiplets, 7nm) is coming later and compatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well). Whatever that means. Maybe AMD simply didn't allow them to go public yet.

If older motherboards (chipsets) simply can't work with chiplets, then it's a sad but fairly controllable case - people will have to replace them.
If it's an issue with power supply or something like that, MSI will have to cover the more power hungry 12/16-core CPUs somehow (lock cores, underclock etc).


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> I don't know where do you get all that optimism.
> 
> AMD is expected to launch at least 12-core CPUs. Many hope for 16-core.
> *There is no way 7nm is twice as efficient as 14nm.* These CPUs will use more power.


It is especially 7nm EUV, just not at uber high clock speeds I'd imagine ~ AMD Ryzen 3rd Gen 'Matisse' Coming Mid 2019: Eight Core Zen 2 with PCIe 4.0 on Desktop

*IIRC* AMD showed that at 7nm TSMC - the power consumption will be lower by ~50% & then there's other improvements like IPC, IF & even PCIe 4.0 to account for.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> But the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.


Which will not be a problem as all Ryzen 3 CPU's will be on 7nm and using LESS power per core. So if a board is design for an 8 core Ryzen 1 or 2, an 8 core Ryzen 3 will safely and perfectly run on the same board and because of the power savings, a 10 or 12 core model will very likely run just as safely. The same thing was true with The Core2 series. If it could run the 65nm Core2, the 45nm Core2 would run perfectly with just a BIOS update. How do you not understand this very simple dynamic? The technology has advanced and changed, but the same principle applies. This is especially true given that AMD has SPECIFICALLY engineered the chipsets to support these transitions. AMD knows what they're doing and as long as motherboard makers have complied with AMD's specifications, which they would have had to run the first and second gen CPU's, then Ryzen 3 will run perfectly with a firmware update.

For those(and the following) reasons your argument is without merit.


notb said:


> you're quite badly informed.


Irony.


notb said:


> compatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well).


Pointless posturing. All AM4 chipsets are electrically compatible with all Ryzen CPU's until AMD announces a change, which they haven't and have already said they won't for the next couple years. Boards based on them are required to support Ryzen 3(Zen2) at minimum.


----------



## notb (Apr 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> It is especially 7nm EUV, just not at uber high clock speed I'd imagine ~ AMD Ryzen 3rd Gen 'Matisse' Coming Mid 2019: Eight Core Zen 2 with PCIe 4.0 on Desktop


It's not if they want to keep the same single-thread performance.
But sure: if they push the clocks low enough, 16 cores at 95W aren't a problem.

It might be that we'll see high-clocked 8-core and low-clocked 16-core models. Although it would be a weird offer for consumers (slow 16 cores useful for what?).
It's a different story in server segment, where such a choice has been true for many years.


> *IIRC* AMD showed that at 7nm TSMC the power consumption will be lower by ~40% & then there's other improvements like IPC, IF & even PCIe 4.0 to account for.


Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.


Seriously? You clearly didn't read the article cited. Ian's input was very clear on the matter and has yet to be refuted/corrected by AMD. Granted, it is his theory, but I'm going to take Ian's logic and reason based theory over your gibber-gabber all day long.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> It's not if they want to keep the same single-thread performance.
> *But sure: if they push the clocks low enough, 16 cores at 95W aren't a problem.*
> 
> It might be that we'll see high-clocked 8-core and low-clocked 16-core models. Although it would be a weird offer for consumers (slow 16 cores useful for what?).
> ...


9900k isn't a 95W TDP processor either outside it's base clocks, just so you know.

Did you see the link, also EPYC (Zen2) reveal sometime earlier? AMD discussed the process characteristics of *TSMC 7nm*, it should be clear enough based on AT's power estimates that Zen2 (7nm TSMC) will be nearly *2x as efficient* as Zen on *GF 14nm*, if not better than that.


----------



## notb (Apr 20, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Which will not be a problem as all Ryzen 3 CPU's will be on 7nm and using LESS power per core. So if a board is design for an 8 core Ryzen 1 or 2, an 8 core Ryzen 3 will safely and perfectly run on the same board and because of the power savings, a 10 or 12 core model will very likely run just as safely.



I think you should talk with people more and spend less time building PCs.
Ask those who bought 8-core Ryzen system, with plans to upgrade later, if "10 or 12 core will *likely* run" is what they were expecting.


> AMD knows what they're doing


It's your opinion. 


> as long as motherboard makers have complied with AMD's specifications, which they would have had to run the first and second gen CPU's, then Ryzen 3 will run perfectly with a firmware update.


So give me 1 reason why it's not official yet.
Why aren't all companies, AMD included, saying: of course you'll be able to run Zen2 on your x370.

Why is AMD silent?
Why is MSI "testing potential compatibility"?


> Pointless posturing. All AM4 chipsets are electrically compatible with all Ryzen CPU's until AMD announces a change, which they haven't and have already said they won't for the next couple years. Boards based on them are required to support Ryzen 3(Zen2) at minimum.


Yeah. We'll see in few months. Someone will have a laugh, that's for sure. [/QUOTE]



R0H1T said:


> 9900k isn't a 95W TDP processor outside it's base clocks, just so you know.


Of course it isn't. But it works on every board with a chipset that supports 9th gen.

This is what we're discussing here, right? Many people believed Ryzen 3000 will work on the AM4 motherboard they bought in 2017.


> Did you see the link, also EPYC reveal sometime earlier? AMD discussed the process characteritics of TSMC 7nmm, it should be clear enough based on AT's power estimates that zen2 (7nm TSMC) will be nearly *2x as effcient* as Zen on GF 14nm if not better.


Not possible. It makes no sense physically for an architecture to use half the power because it takes half the space. It wouldn't converge properly.
Well, unless we agree that Zen on GF 14nm was rubbish and there was a lot of place for improvement on it. And I really don't that was the case.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> Of course it isn't. But it works on every board with a chipset that supports 9th gen.
> 
> This is what we're discussing here, right? Many people believed Ryzen 3000 will work on the AM4 motherboard they bought in 2017.
> 
> ...


You know what, you make some unreal claims with whatever info you have on this topic 







Let me correct myself, it is indeed 50% less power i.e. at least 2x as efficient ~ https://www.anandtech.com/show/1357...-4-an-interview-with-amd-cto-mark-papermaster


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 20, 2019)

notb said:


> I think you should talk with people more and spend less time building PCs.


Thanks for the tip.


notb said:


> Ask those who bought 8-core Ryzen system, with plans to upgrade later, if "10 or 12 core will* likely* run" is what they were expecting.


Um, don't be changing my comments to fit your narrative. I said VERY likely, as in almost guaranteed. Also, see below..


notb said:


> It's your opinion.


Actions speak louder than words and AMD's actions show that they are on-form. Not really an opinion as it is conclusion based on demonstrable track record.


notb said:


> Yeah. We'll see in few months. Someone will have a laugh, that's for sure.


Are you done being a troll picking a fight? Grow up a little.

The facts are, AMD designed the Ryzen series with upgrades specifically in mind. They have stated clearly that AM4 will be supported for several iterations of the Ryzen line. Motherboard makers are required, by contract, to follow with that design specification. Again, your nay-saying argument has no merit.


----------



## Melvis (Apr 20, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> 3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1.



Link please. 



notb said:


> But the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.
> I think most people hope that they'll be able to upgrade to more cores - not the same number of them, just using 20% less power.
> 
> For such an AMD fan, you're quite badly informed.
> ...



Link?  because far as I am aware they are all under the same BIOS update as they are on the same die as shown in all the leaks from the past few months. 

Everything else you say about MSI is false as they have already released a press update about the false news.


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 20, 2019)

Melvis said:


> Link please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-apu


----------



## Melvis (Apr 21, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-apu



Erm we are talking about desktop CPU's not Mobile CPU's, but thanks for the link anyway


----------



## nemesis.ie (Apr 22, 2019)

@Melvis The original qute you asked for the link for did say "APU" though. 


"GoldenX said:
3000 series *APUs* are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1."


----------



## Melvis (Apr 23, 2019)

nemesis.ie said:


> @Melvis The original qute you asked for the link for did say "APU" though.
> 
> 
> "GoldenX said:
> 3000 series *APUs* are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1."



Yes but not mobile APU's as that was never discussed at all in any of the posts I mentioned.


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 23, 2019)

The leak doesn't has a chiplet.


----------



## GoldenX (May 22, 2019)

Beta BIOS with Zen2 support for B350 chipsets.


----------



## moomeacow (Jul 16, 2019)

so was this article bullshit I didn't read through 13 pages but I see beta bios already out 7/16. I think if msi actually did block it, every person who bought their cards including me would never buy their mother boards again. i'm still on 1800x i'll probably upgrade when zen 4 is out, not in a hurry to be on the latest hardware.


----------



## Leonardo Oscar Morellato (Jul 16, 2019)

we need a moderator to close the thread if msi did support latest ryzen on 300 series chipset


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2019)

Leonardo Oscar Morellato said:


> we need a moderator to close the thread *if msi did support latest ryzen on 300 series chipset*


They have and even on A320 boards.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 17, 2019)

yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.


----------



## biffzinker (Jul 17, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.


The Ryzen 3 1200 might be useful for flashing with support for Bristol Ridge going away.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 17, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.


Most people looking to upgrade their CPU almost certainly already have one to flash the BIOS with. Trivial issue IMO.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 17, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Most people looking to upgrade their CPU almost certainly already have one to flash the BIOS with. Trivial issue IMO.



true for people already on ryzen, not true for people wanting to get into 3rd gen, without getting x570

the x470 and b450 refresh boards will be flowing out soon enough, for 'value' ryzen 3000 options


----------



## nemesis.ie (Jul 17, 2019)

One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 17, 2019)

nemesis.ie said:


> One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?



open the boxes, assemble into a test bench, flash the BIOS (potentially removing certain features like APU support) and put it back in the box, then potentially sell it for less as an open-box product? not a chance


----------



## nemesis.ie (Jul 17, 2019)

A lot of them put the box sleeve on at time of shipping I think.

That could also be done as a "value add" (small charge) for customers and would also be a lot cheaper than having to restock/return a board that didn't work.

Some of the vendors already provide CPU and RAM insertion services.


----------



## EarthDog (Jul 17, 2019)

nemesis.ie said:


> That could also be done as a "value add" (small charge) for customers and would also be a lot cheaper than having to restock/return a board that didn't work.


This is valid...

...vendors are not AIBs.


----------



## nemesis.ie (Jul 17, 2019)

No, they aren't.

I'm talking about r/etailers doing the UEFI upgrades for their customers.


----------



## thebluebumblebee (Jul 17, 2019)

nemesis.ie said:


> One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?


The answer to this depends on what part of the world you're in.  "Pre-flashing", by law, renders an item as "used" and can no longer be sold as new in some areas.  Should a dealer offer to flash a motherboard at the time of sale? Of course.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jul 17, 2019)

nemesis.ie said:


> One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?



It doesn't matter because AMD will send you a free CPU to do the bios flash.  You just have to apply for it.

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-100



moomeacow said:


> so was this article bullshit



Yes, from the very beginning.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 17, 2019)

Mussels said:


> true for people already on ryzen, not true for people wanting to get into 3rd gen, without getting x570
> 
> the x470 and b450 refresh boards will be flowing out soon enough, for 'value' ryzen 3000 options


Sure it is. The existing B450, X470, B350 and X370 boards are and have been shipping with updated firmware. So if you want to upgrade an existing system, flash and go. If you're buying new, you're still good to go as long as you verify that the board you're buying has Ryzen 3xxx support.



nemesis.ie said:


> One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?


I needed to do that on one board we had in inventory, but had a spare R5-1600 to do it with. All of the rest have been good to go.


----------



## thebluebumblebee (Jul 17, 2019)

Thought I'd share about my X370 XPOWER GAMING TITANIUM:


----------



## Mussels (Jul 18, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Sure it is. The existing B450, X470, B350 and X370 boards are and have been shipping with updated firmware. So if you want to upgrade an existing system, flash and go. If you're buying new, you're still good to go as long as you verify that the board you're buying has Ryzen 3xxx support.
> 
> 
> I needed to do that on one board we had in inventory, but had a spare R5-1600 to do it with. All of the rest have been good to go.



around here if you order online, you'd never know if you got an updated board or not until it arrived - and you cant return it because you didnt get the preflashed one.


----------



## GoldenX (Jul 18, 2019)

thebluebumblebee said:


> Thought I'd share about my X370 XPOWER GAMING TITANIUM:


That debloated beta BIOS fixed a lot of bugs on my B350 board. It's awesome and I don't want to return to the stupid previous version ever again.
If they get to add RAID again on it, it will be perfect.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 18, 2019)

Mussels said:


> around here if you order online, you'd never know if you got an updated board or not until it arrived - and you cant return it because you didnt get the preflashed one.


Fair enough, maybe we've just been lucky?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 18, 2019)

some of the high quality retailers are now specifying which products have 3000 bios support from the manuf, but if they dont state it, you wont know.

So far i've seen just this one board with support added


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 18, 2019)

Mussels said:


> some of the high quality retailers are now specifying which products have 3000 bios support from the manuf, but if they dont state it, you wont know.
> 
> So far i've seen just this one board with support added


Maybe more will follow with that declaration. Hopefully anyway.


----------

