# Ketamine unlocks secret of depression



## twilyth (Jul 22, 2011)

It's been known for at least the past year that the drug Ketamine (Special-K being one of its street monikers) significantly improves symptoms of severe depression.  And it does so in hours to days rather than weeks or months as with most anti-depressants.

Now it looks like the key to its activity may have been found.


> At high doses, ketamine renders a person unconscious. At lower doses, the drug can induce euphoria, hallucinations and out-of-body experiences, properties that make “Special K” a popular drug of abuse. In the study, Ege Kavalali and his colleagues used low doses that wouldn’t induce psychotic effects.
> 
> They found that ketamine kicks off a series of biochemical changes in the brain that culminate in the production of a protein called BDNF. Low BDNF levels have been linked to depression. The researchers also found that mice genetically engineered to be unable to produce BDNF didn’t respond to ketamine.
> 
> So far, ketamine has been used in several small trials to treat people with severe depression. The drug seems to work quickly and effectively, but scientists haven’t clearly understood how.


Since this is a subject near, if not dear to my heart, I did a search to find supplements that might help increase BDNF.  The first one I found was for curcumin (a type of spice).  Got that from the wikipedia page on BDNF which referenced this article.  I'm not recommending this.  I don't even know if it would have the desired effect.  I'm just putting it out there as a possible lead.

Interesting side note:  High levels of BDNF seem to be associated with increased itching in eczema. (also from the wiki article).


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## The_Ish (Jul 23, 2011)

Treating symptoms.. What a breakthrough!
Get your lives togheter so that you don't need that shit, that's what i say.

It's like treating heroin addicts by giving them another drug.


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## DanishDevil (Jul 23, 2011)

IMO, this is stupid. It's the same thing as saying that speed cures being a fatass, or cocaine relieves symptoms of exhaustion. Typically abused street drugs increase hormone levels that give feelings of happiness and euphoria. Depression sufferers should be on long-term receptor inhibitors and drugs to properly balance and regulate their bodies rather than getting a temporary high. If they can derive exactly what's going on, and give a long-term, controllable balance, then it might be worth looking into, but I have a hard time believing in using street drugs to cure depression.


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## The_Ish (Jul 23, 2011)

Am I depressed? Well yeah, i don't have a job, and my foreseeable future is uncertain, I have every reason to be depressed. But there is depression, and then there is the kind of depression that makes someone want to kill themselves. What I have is more of a frustration type of depression. The article told of people with severe depression.

I've got two friends who at several times in their lives tried to kill themselves for one reason or another. I basically helped them get their shit together, and one is today married with 2 kids, and the other went from an alcoholic heroin addict, who had just lost his job. To a stable relationship and a job he loves.

So.. Whatever your impression of me or my interpretations of depression may be, I don't think calling me stupid and telling me to fuck off is gonna help your argument. Just saying.


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## twilyth (Jul 23, 2011)

DanishDevil said:


> If they can derive exactly what's going on, and give a long-term, controllable balance, then it might be worth looking into, but I have a hard time believing in using street drugs to cure depression.



Ummm.  That's sorta the point of the research.  It pays to read the article.

and your comment about receptors is in error.  SSRI's seem to work by stimulating neurogenesis in the hypothalamus.  That would result in an increase in BDNF - as was alluded to in the article.


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## AsRock (Jul 23, 2011)

It's business as usual.  Let me know when they start cure's.


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## Drone (Jul 23, 2011)

Perhaps they need to get out more ...


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## Jetster (Jul 23, 2011)

But one of the listed side effects is depression?


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## Widjaja (Jul 23, 2011)

The_Ish said:


> Treating symptoms.. What a breakthrough!
> Get your lives togheter so that you don't need that shit, that's what i say.
> 
> It's like treating heroin addicts by giving them another drug.



I completely agree with this.
In many cases there is a source or number of sources from which the depressive feeling comes from.
If the sources are real life situations then those situations MUST be resolved to make any progress.
But in saying this there are situations in life where the situation can not be resolved in the short term and the person affected continues their downward spiral.

This is when such research comes as useful if made legal to the public instead of resorting to drugs and alcohol for temporary relief.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jul 23, 2011)

Surely there must be a better way to raise BDNF levels?  Perhaps a trip to Cedar Point? 


The_Ish said:


> Treating symptoms.. What a breakthrough!
> Get your lives togheter so that you don't need that shit, that's what i say.
> 
> It's like treating heroin addicts by giving them another drug.


I agree, but only to a limit.  We must be careful not to trivialize a serious condition.


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## twilyth (Jul 23, 2011)

Jetster said:


> But one of the listed side effects is depression?


I don't think they're going to use ketamine and if they do it will be in very low doses as they did with the lab rats.  They didn't get the rats stoned.  They gave them just enough to increase BDNF levels.

But a lot of drugs are like that.  I've been on every SSRI that was on the market as of about 5 years ago.  I have dysthymia rather than clinical depression (combined with a variety of other issues).  The most depressed I've ever been was on Luvox.  I was so enervated I almost didn't want to live.  I've never been suicidal, but I came very close with that drug.

Same thing with stimulants.  I take Focalin (a variant of Ritalin).  Sometimes it keeps me awake and sometimes it puts me right to sleep - like I'd been shot with a trank dart.  Pharmacology, pharmacokinetics, etc. is some weird ass shit.


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## Widjaja (Jul 23, 2011)

The anti-depressant treatments I have had had only made me sluggish and just not with it hen first taking it.
All it did was make me to blank to think or dwell upon anything to much.
I just needed some time away from thinking about what happened to finally overcome the issue and carry on.

I have been prescribed the stuff for depression in the past and believe it or not, to quit smoking.


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## twilyth (Jul 23, 2011)

Wellbutrin is probably the drug you had in mind.  It does help many people quit.  It is prescribed at about half the dosage used for depression.

It is a unique drug in that it increases levels of dopamine and norepinepherine.  I think it is still the only heterocyclic amine that does that.


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## Widjaja (Jul 23, 2011)

twilyth said:


> Wellbutrin is probably the drug you had in mind.  It does help many people quit.  It is prescribed at about half the dosage used for depression.
> 
> It is a unique drug in that it increases levels of dopamine and norepinepherine.  I think it is still the only heterocyclic amine that does that.



Just took a look at the box as I didn't bother with taking the stuff for the whole treatment.
The stuff is called Nortriptyline.


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## twilyth (Jul 23, 2011)

Ah.  that's an old tricyclic.  I've been on a few but they had absolutely no effect.  One shrink even made me have my blood levels checked since he didn't believe me.

So I can't really tell you much except that the tricyclics tend to increase all 3 major neurotransmitters - norepinepherine, serotonin and dopamine. 

Here is the clinical pharmacology info on it from rxlist.com


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## Widjaja (Jul 23, 2011)

twilyth said:


> Ah.  that's an old tricyclic.  I've been on a few but they had absolutely no effect.  One shrink even made me have my blood levels checked since he didn't believe me.
> 
> So I can't really tell you much except that the tricyclics tend to increase all 3 major neurotransmitters - norepinepherine, serotonin and dopamine.
> 
> Here is the clinical pharmacology info on it from rxlist.com



No surprises, my GP is very good at prescribing me medication which does nothing or makes things worse, then sends me off to the A&E to get a doctor there to prescribe me something which actually works, then logs it so he knows what to give next time.

The only other stuff I have had is Citalopram which made feel dozy and sluggish.
It didn't make me happy as assumed anti-depressants do, it just stopped me from dwelling on anything for too long.
Sort of numbing.


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## Jetster (Jul 23, 2011)

One of the best things I do that helps my moods is exercise. I run daily and mountain bike.  One thing that makes me feel worse is junk food and online gaming. Hate to admit that but its true. I have to watch how much I game or spend on a computer for that matter. As far as depression, I love my life really. I wake up  everyday motivated.


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## MilkyWay (Jul 23, 2011)

Ketamine is a horse tranquiliser and humans can die if they take it but probably not at as low a dose as they plan. 

With depression its more than likely external factors that are the cause, those factors wont go away with medication. I recognise though that medications sometimes allow people to overcome those causes of depression. Its difficult to say as i dont know how humans work there are lots of other cases. 

I have aspergers and a few years ago was diagnosed with social anxiety and mild depression, ive also always had telephone anxiety. Basically i can go on medication but they would rather not. My GP told me this sort of thing can happen to people with aspergers and thats why they would rather i didnt but at the same time had no problem offering me medications lol. Basically it varies at times and to which degrees.

Ketamine is one of the last things i would think of.


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## Tatty_One (Jul 23, 2011)

Jetster said:


> One of the best things I do that helps my moods is exercise. I run daily and mountain bike.  One thing that makes me feel worse is junk food and online gaming. Hate to admit that but its true. I have to watch how much I game or spend on a computer for that matter. As far as depression, I love my life really. I wake up  everyday motivated.



Excellent post here and I couldn't agree more, "you are what you eat"...... "you live by your sleep" is a saying we had in the Army, where the definition of depression generally is "the inability to cope with a set of circumstances or situation", eat well, sleep well and take regular exercise and 8 out of 10 cats don't need pills, the other 2 out of 10 do, simply because their depression has escalated beyond the inability to cope and moved into a more clinical phsycological state.  Medication of course always has it's place, I am of the opinion that self help for most, but certainly not all is the best way forward however.


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## r9 (Jul 23, 2011)

Why are we discussing drugs here ?! Take this talk to your local dealer.


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## pantherx12 (Jul 23, 2011)

Jetster said:


> But one of the listed side effects is depression?



One of my friends foolishly had ket recreational and he got epic depressed whilst it was in his system, had to tuck him into bed myself!

He was trying to fight me the entire walk home as well.


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## Widjaja (Jul 23, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> One of my friends foolishly had ket recreational and he got epic depressed whilst it was in his system, had to tuck him into bed myself!
> 
> He was trying to fight me the entire walk home as well.



Just like I have seen the adverse effects of someone taking ritalin when they weren't prescribed it.

Like many drugs taken without following the rules or lack of them, there are potential risks.

The best plan is to not take them again if they cause you to fall ill.


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## The_Ish (Jul 24, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Surely there must be a better way to raise BDNF levels?  Perhaps a trip to Cedar Point?
> 
> I agree, but only to a limit.  We must be careful not to trivialize a serious condition.



I have a rather blunt personality . It's not that i think we should herd depressed people to the canyons edge and give them an ultimatum. Counseling however! I just don't like drugs of any kind. I don't even take drugs for headaches any more. But with that said, i am hopeless with caffeine and nicotine, so I've got my own demons. Setting up goals and achieving them can do so much for the mental health of a person. It's helping these individuals I think we need focus on, not give them drugs and send them on their merry way.

You've got to ask yourself: Why is this person depressed? How can I help this person?
When i say "get their lives together" I basically mean they need to take a good honest look at themselves, and find it within themselves to climb out of that void.

A stable personal economy, love, the sense of being appreciated by someone. Really, the things that make life worth living. These are examples which most people can't or don't want to be without. Just examples.. But if to many of them are left out, you will become depressed to one degree or another. Eating drugs that messes with the brains chemistry does not solve any of that. Power comes from within, change comes from within. And I think I've proved, at least to myself, by helping close friends through their hardships, that a helping hand goes a long way.

Think of it this way.. You've got a flat tire and you've forgotten to check the air pressure on the spare tyre for years and years. It's unusable. Nobody is stopping to help you, and you phone is dead. But then an old lady stops and says - Where are you heading? Let's say you were heading to see your family. She says she can loan you her spare to the next gas station. You get new tires, and on your way to go. Just because of one sincere old lady, who just wanted to help a man in need.

The moral of the story is that no matter how insignificant that man by the side of the road waving his arms in desperation is to passers by, that one small gesture of kindness, made you feel all warm inside. Someone actually cared about you enough to help you in a time of need.

We're not gonna pay their bills, we're gonna help them find a job. We're not gonna tell them "stop doing drugs", we're gonna find something to channel it into. Sports, books, what have you. Sometimes all that is needed is a distraction. Sometimes just being there for someone, literally just being there, is help enough. It could make the person feel  loved and important. "wow, he's here with me. Yet i am so boring and dull, and he's so nice. Maybe i should go with him on that music festival he asked me to tag along to" And just like that, the grip of sadness and depression might lift, just as easy as it once came down so hard. 

Trust me. I've helped others, and I've had others help me. It can be overwhelmingly difficult to overcome on your own. All you need is a little good old dose of love, peace and understanding 

I rest my case (i might still reply tho!)


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## twilyth (Jul 24, 2011)

I've had all of the things you mention and I still felt like shit.

Some depression is certainly circumstantial, loss, bereavement, relationships, etc.  But some is biochemical.  Biochemical changes can be genetic, epigenetic or acquired.  For example prolonged stress causes the hippocampus (IIRC) to actually shrink.

In the cases where it is biochemical, you're only option is psychotropics.

And by the way, humans have used chemicals from various sources since the beginning of time - for religious enlightenment, healing, etc.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jul 24, 2011)

The_Ish said:


> The moral of the story is that no matter how insignificant that man by the side of the road waving his arms in desperation is to passers by, that one small gesture of kindness, made you feel all warm inside. Someone actually cared about you enough to help you in a time of need.


I believe it, really I do.  You're preaching to the choir.

The thing is though, is it can be worse than bad.  There are people who are so depressed that they can't muster the grit to change the tire and fuck all if an old lady is strong enough to bust out a tire iron and change it. 

There are people where the magnitude of an unfortunate event is an order higher than any good event, which perpetually puts them in the red for happiness.  No imaginable quantity of good will ever give them five minutes of feeling content.

I've known people who could only describe their existence by pain and suffering; healthy, intelligent, attractive, social people who I'd be honored to call my friends.  On several occasions it was related that this was persistent from their earliest memories . . .

So sure as the day extend your hand, but not everyone will grasp it, and of the ones that do, some will not be able to hang on. (Holy shit that's depressing!  )

I've had the dubious fortune of meeting a few of life's hard luck cases.


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## Thatguy (Jul 25, 2011)

The_Ish said:


> Treating symptoms.. What a breakthrough!
> Get your lives togheter so that you don't need that shit, that's what i say.
> 
> It's like treating heroin addicts by giving them another drug.



depression isn't a bad thing, so long as its not out of control. it can actually lead to many things that are positive.


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## Widjaja (Jul 25, 2011)

Thatguy said:


> depression isn't a bad thing, so long as its not out of control. it can actually lead to many things that are positive.



Care to ellaborate?


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 25, 2011)

The_Ish said:


> Treating symptoms.. What a breakthrough!
> Get your lives togheter so that you don't need that shit, that's what i say.
> 
> It's like treating heroin addicts by giving them another drug.



EXACTLY! Unfortunatly it's not that easy to get a life together when so many social/governmental/legal systems hold you back.

Depression is a normal response to "less then ideal" experiences. Look at the world? What's not to be depressed about? It's a sad sad place. Thankfully(?) we find "distractions" to cheer us up, right? A night out to the local bar? A night in with a movie? A hobby? But once the rush wears off, what's left? Your still busting your arse all weak just to break even. No wonder "depression" is so common. It's not a disease, it's a reaction. What's the real problem? We're all oppressed and subconsciously our brains know we're rats in a cage and subconsciously we can't stand it, but what can we do about it without getting arrested?


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## Frick (Jul 25, 2011)

Lazzer408 said:


> EXACTLY! Unfortunatly it's not that easy to get a life together when so many social/governmental/legal systems hold you back.
> 
> Depression is a normal response to "less then ideal" experiences. Look at the world? What's not to be depressed about? It's a sad sad place. Thankfully(?) we find "distractions" to cheer us up, right? A night out to the local bar? A night in with a movie? A hobby? But once the rush wears off, what's left? Your still busting your arse all weak just to break even. No wonder "depression" is so common. It's not a disease, it's a reaction. What's the real problem? We're all oppressed and subconsciously our brains know we're rats in a cage and subconsciously we can't stand it, but what can we do about it without getting arrested?



And then we have the bipolar syndrome. You can be clinically depressed because you're body is not functioning properly. And outside factors can lead to this as well. It's all entangled, but to say "get out of it" is ignorance of the highest magnitude.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 25, 2011)

I can see it now: the next prescribed (and abused) methamphetamine morphine!

What's worse: severe depression or a severe drug addiction?


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 25, 2011)

Frick said:


> And then we have the bipolar syndrome. You can be clinically depressed because you're body is not functioning properly. And outside factors can lead to this as well. It's all entangled, but to say "get out of it" is ignorance of the highest magnitude.



"Get out of it" as in "Snap out of it"? Like, just choose to feel better? I wish. I think bi-polar disorders fall along the same lines as depression. Some days I feel like crap and when I do, I find myself looking at all the bad things in life. Same goes if I'm having a good day. I'll see all the good things that happened that day. There's just good and bad everywhere and some people react to it differently. Ever want to punch your waiter in the face for being rude to you? You should. If you could, he'd learn not to be such an a-hole to you because his wife's on the rag and he can't yell at her without risking divorce and loosing his home so your his scapegoat that night. I'd beat his ass but our laws prevent any future human learning and evolution from those experiences. I digress. We're all just consumer whores now and need to either accept it or fight it.

I don't buy it that so many people are depressed or have bi-polar disorders. I think alot of those people just can't keep themselfs distracted from the problems with society.


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## de.das.dude (Jul 25, 2011)

depression is actually good for you, it motivates people in trying harder.


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## Jetster (Jul 25, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> depression is actually good for you, it motivates people in trying harder.



Actually by definition the term depression means lack of motivation. But your referring to a normal response to a sad affect which makes sense. 

Clinical depression is different. I think its what we are talking about here. I indicates a depressed mood not caused by external environmental situations. But rather a internal chemical changes. The question is how to best change the chemicals back. Changes in diet, behavior or even medications may be required.


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 25, 2011)

Jetster said:


> Actually by definition the term depression means lack of motivation. But your referring to a normal response to a sad affect which makes sense.
> 
> Clinical depression is different. I think its what we are talking about here. I indicates a depressed mood not caused by external environmental situations. But rather a internal chemical changes. The question is how to best change the chemicals back. Changes in diet, behavior or even medications may be required.



But that's the thing. No one lives in an environment without negitive situations. Those chemical changes might be triggered by all the negitivity in society. Just because we've learned to accept it as "normal society" doesn't mean our primitive subconscious ignores it.


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## Jetster (Jul 25, 2011)

Lazzer408 said:


> But that's the thing. No one lives in an environment without negitive situations. Those chemical changes might be triggered by all the negitivity in society. Just because we've learned to accept it as "normal society" doesn't mean our primitive subconscious ignores it.





Not following your logic. I dont think our society is that negative and I also dont think clinical depression is normal

But back on track. I dont think taking Special K is a good idea unless your doctor agrees

I think your saying if your life sucks do something about it?


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## v12dock (Jul 25, 2011)

Widjaja said:


> The only other stuff I have had is Citalopram which made feel dozy and sluggish.
> It didn't make me happy as assumed anti-depressants do, it just stopped me from dwelling on anything for too long.
> Sort of numbing.



I took Citalopram for about 3 months, after about 1 month people said I was a lot more social and talkative. I was prescribed it to treat anxiety, after the 3 months I felt like I didn't need it anymore and completely stop taking it. My doctor said I would have to be whelmed off it, although I felt no affects when stop taking it suddenly.


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## The_Ish (Jul 25, 2011)

Lazzer408 said:


> EXACTLY! Unfortunatly it's not that easy to get a life together when so many social/governmental/legal systems hold you back.
> 
> Depression is a normal response to "less then ideal" experiences. Look at the world? What's not to be depressed about? It's a sad sad place. Thankfully(?) we find "distractions" to cheer us up, right? A night out to the local bar? A night in with a movie? A hobby? But once the rush wears off, what's left? Your still busting your arse all weak just to break even. No wonder "depression" is so common. It's not a disease, it's a reaction. What's the real problem? We're all oppressed and subconsciously our brains know we're rats in a cage and subconsciously we can't stand it, but what can we do about it without getting arrested?



Exactly. And I'm not a doctor, nor do i have ANY degree from college (or just plain university if you're not an American ) And i think chemical changes comes from environment. It has to be triggered by something. It doesn't just happen because a biological timer told your body to get sick. And I think this is the most evident with VD's. (Which means CEO in Swedish btw )


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## Wrigleyvillain (Jul 25, 2011)

Uh there is a HUGE and very real difference between bummed about your shitty life and _clincally depressed_. Everything is biochemical. Some people brains just aren't "right" in terms of being able to live a normal life.

A lot of the comments in this thread are really ignorant.


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## Widjaja (Jul 26, 2011)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> Uh there is a HUGE and very real difference between bummed about your shitty life and _clincally depressed_. Everything is biochemical. Some people brains just aren't "right" in terms of being able to live a normal life.
> 
> A lot of the comments in this thread are really ignorant.



It can be really hard on a young male in New Zealand with depression, as Kiwi males are generally brought in a  way that if there is anything emotionally going wrong we are just told to harden up, build a bridge and get over it.

I've had close friends attempt suicide and most of them finally succeeded.
One as recent as last year.
Whats worse is I never saw it coming.


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## Thatguy (Jul 26, 2011)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> Uh there is a HUGE and very real difference between bummed about your shitty life and _clincally depressed_. Everything is biochemical. Some people brains just aren't "right" in terms of being able to live a normal life.
> 
> A lot of the comments in this thread are really ignorant.



Then remove them from society, its wieghing the rest of us down.


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## twilyth (Jul 26, 2011)

I can see you put a lot of thought into that post.  Good job.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Jul 26, 2011)

Thatguy said:


> Then remove them from society, its wieghing the rest of us down.



I bet you point and laugh at people with Downs Syndrome too. Cretin. Your nick is apt.


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## Widjaja (Jul 26, 2011)

Thatguy said:


> depression isn't a bad thing, so long as its not out of control. it can actually lead to many things that are positive.





Thatguy said:


> Then remove them from society, its wieghing the rest of us down.


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## Oxford (Jul 26, 2011)

It's a good thing that there are professionals who study these matters scientifically and have actual systematic hard evidence to support their hypotheses.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jul 27, 2011)

This thread inspired me to do a little research and I was watching an episode of Frontline called, "The Medicated Child", and they said that the suicide rate jumped after black box warnings were added to some antidepressants.

I'll apologize in advance for my naivety, but that fact startled me and I looked on wikipedia for additional info.


> From *Wikipedia Entry on Antidepressants*
> 
> 
> _On September 6, 2007, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that the suicide rate in American adolescents, (especially girls, 10 to 24 years old), increased 8% (2003 to 2004), the largest jump in 15 years, to 4,599 suicides in Americans ages 10 to 24 in 2004, from 4,232 in 2003, giving a suicide rate of 7.32 per 100,000 people that age. The rate previously dropped to 6.78 per 100,000 in 2003 from 9.48 per 100,000 in 1990.
> ...



My apologies again, but: holy shit 


Wrigleyvillain said:


> . . . It's all about profits of course.


From what I just posted I would disagree.  These drugs are immensely important.  They're not just improving lives, they're saving them.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Jul 27, 2011)

Oh yeah. Antidepressants _can_ be bad news, many more are on the market than probably should be. It's all about profits of course.



Oxford said:


> It's a good thing that there are professionals who study these matters scientifically and have actual systematic hard evidence to support their hypotheses.



Nicely done.


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 27, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> This thread inspired me to do a little research and I was watching an episode of Frontline called, "The Medicated Child", and they said that the suicide rate jumped after black box warnings were added to some antidepressants.



There are SO many other factors that contribute to youths' issues. For one, kids have no parents. The cost of living keeps going up resulting in both parents have to work so who's raising the kids? Youtube and Adult Swim?  Who's teaching them how to deal with problems? Not to mention it's illegal to enforce any form of punishment on a child so kids get away with whatever they want. Maybe teen pregnancy wouldn't be so high if daddy spent a little more time with his daughter instead of playing WoW. 

f-it... Just blame Obama.


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## Widjaja (Jul 27, 2011)

There's many areas of what humanity has becomes which is causing growing stress and anxiety fior the younger generation.

Brittany Spears, Lady Gaga, Keisha, stick thin females for models, idiots who believe their lives should play out like an action packed movie script and getting depressed over their normal life.

So in two words *Mass Media* and stupid society striving to be it.


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## Thatguy (Jul 27, 2011)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> I bet you point and laugh at people with Downs Syndrome too. Cretin. Your nick is apt.



No, but I wonder why we allow them to propogate a genetic defect. Granted some mutations although viewed as a negative can be positive over a long time line. 

Problem is, the world is a cruel place, get over it.


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 27, 2011)

Widjaja said:


> There's many areas of what humanity has becomes which is causing growing stress and anxiety fior the younger generation.
> 
> Brittany Spears, Lady Gaga, Keisha,



This thread?


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## streetfighter 2 (Jul 27, 2011)

Thatguy said:


> No, but I wonder why we allow them to propogate a genetic defect.


Because eugenics devalues human life and becomes a refuge for bigotry and irrational fear.

Plain and simple.


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