# (Anti) SFF fun house



## tabascosauz (Sep 6, 2019)

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Spoiler



*Austere Box: *
#40 Enter the Cerberus
#41 Ol' Beastie becomes Austere Box
#74 12-core Austere Box
#98 REEEEEEEEEEEEE IT'S NOT 20L IT'S NOT SFF REEEEEEEEEEEE



*Ol' Beastie: *
#2 History
#3 More history
#9 Misguided launch day ramblings about Ryzen
#21 RTX
#34 Upsizing to mATX
#35 More mATX
#52 Too big, go back
#53 Almost there
#58 Memory memeing with Renoir
#59 Moar APU memes
#72 Ol' Beastie is too big, Noctua controversy round 1
#73 The new 5.4L Ol' Beastie, acrylic APU powerhouse
#85 iGPU OC
#88 New plans
#94 Even more iGPU OC
#97 The new new 4.6L Ol' Beastie, size comparisons, Noctua controversy round 2



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*Austere Box R5.1 *
*Caselabs Mercury S3:*






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*Ol' Beastie R6.1 *(4.6L volume)
*Lone Industries L5:*





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## tabascosauz (Sep 6, 2019)

It always feels weird to name these inanimate objects, but maybe it's the constant hanging out on F150forum.com that I've gotten used to the practice.  In all seriousness, this ol' girl has a name because we've been up to 30,000ft like it's a second home, to all different places over yonder and helped me see through the (not particularly enjoyable) events of the past few years. Sometimes being able to come back and fire up a game or movie or music or just sit there and stare at a webpage was all there was between me and something very, very rash.

Now, after years of hauling a Pelican 1510 that would weigh between 25-30lb through distant airports, all while sweating bullets (in addition to sweating normally because it's damn hot lugging that thing around) and fearing for what the gate agents on shift that day would say about my 1510, I think it may be time to wrap up that life. Yes, I do have a short stint remaining at school, which means I will need to fly there and back again with something that is not a laptop, but that will most likely be something along the lines of a Hades Canyon NUC; whether it's a HNK or HVK is something I have not yet decided, but all I know is that you will not find me twiddling my thumbs waiting for the debut of Intel's new dGPU, which will most likely be the centerpiece of the Hades' replacement - the Ghost Canyon NUC. That would also mean the retirement of my 1510 in its current role, as my new and miniature (in relative terms) Pelican 1300 in screaming yellow fits the bill far better for such a compact machine; I would just be putting the *dividers *back in padded dividers and using it to house my camera gear.

This frees up Ol' Beastie to move to a roomier case, without the constraints of the 1510. While a Caselabs Mercury S3 or Nova X2M would have been an impeccable choice at this time, as my luck would have it, Caselabs no longer exists. With that in mind, the choice of case for the near future is still very much in question. I'm also having trouble deciding if I really want to give up the ability to take Ol' Beastie, fully protected, around town to friends' houses.

I think it's an elitist thing, lmao. The M1 is a little more premium than most mass market ones and I'm having some trouble accepting the prospect of going back to an NZXT (which still makes damn fine cases, by the way) or a Silverstone, kek. It's also a nice little case, and if I'm gonna be honest, nothing else is really pulling me in and giving a real reason to ditch the M1 as of yet.

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In the beginning, I was just tossing ideas around. In that warm spring of 2015, I had long since come to realize that I could not survive without the familiar feel of a desktop PC.  So at that point, the conclusion was that whatever I would use, I’d have to bring with me.

So I started with the Pelican 1510, ubiquitous amongst photographers everywhere. I picked pluck foam to start.

But what to make and how to make it? There were no guides on building a PC specifically to endure the rigors of air travel. What protection would I use? What case could I fit? Would air coolers and GPUs be safe, or would they transform into unrestrained weapons ready to tear through their sockets and slots at the slightest shock? Most AIOs might make it through security on a round trip……but *mostly* wasn’t going to cut it, I was going to have to make it through CATSA/TSA/Border Force every single time, without fail, on my 4-6 flights a year.

Hell, even if you queried a forum for suggestions, they’d mostly just laugh and tell you to buy a laptop or build one at the destination. With the rise of SFF and uSFF, followed by the continuous revision of the M1 design and introduction of the SM550 and DAN-A4, it’s incredibly easy nowadays. There’s even a dedicated shoulder bag for the M1 and A4. But that sure wasn’t the case back then.

The SG08B-Lite popped up as a reasonable candidate, given its ability to fit the D9L, while still being under 15L in volume. The build came together as a i3-4160, H81I and R7 265 with a XFX Core Edition (Seasonic S12II) providing power, as for much of the time before my departure, it would only function as a secondary HTPC to my main rig. Sadly, Dropbox had a big fustercluck about a year later and deleted nearly all the photos I had of that setup.




September came, and off we went. It was the first time I was flying with such a thing. I very quickly discovered what many a photographer had at their chagrin – the stock plastic wheels on the 1510 are *horrible*. If air travel wouldn’t break my PC, those wheels would make sure the PC would be shattered by the time it reached its destination. But carrying it was also heavy as hell (the SG08B-Lite has a full 10mm thick front panel made of *solid aluminium*), so I did this awkward combination of wheeling it gingerly over smooth surfaces and carrying it the rest of the way.

I was so jumpy going through CATSA – not good vibes to have at airport security. The guy was nice and all, as well as curious to the components I had chosen, but out of the subsequent dozen opportunities, that first flight marked the one and only time my rig was ever swabbed for explosives. 

Next challenge was the size of the carry-on. Air Canada had introduced these stupid “check your carry on size for fitment compliance” crates constructed from steel tubing, and it just so happened that the Pelican 1510, despite complying with literally every major airline’s standards, was slightly out of spec for Air Canada’s on one axis. Furthermore, it was also a couple of pounds too heavy. The gate agent was less than understanding at first, but after I explained everything at stake and that I simply could not accept checking it into the hold, he put a red tag on it and I got on. There were no further hiccups on that flight.




Things went well until 1) I got tired of carrying around 28lb in Heathrow Terminal 2; 2) my H81I started giving up on life. Given how the board looked by the end, I wagered that the horizontal motherboard placement and the weight of the D9L on top of it had done it in. As to the first point, little did I know, it was about to get a lot worse. Air Canada flights are generally ushered into Terminal 2 gates, a large, modern complex that manages to be airy and refreshing; most importantly, the floors are smooth tile. I switched to BA for their standard dimensions and generous 51lb carry-on allowance. British Airways flights to Western Canada come into Terminal 3, a literal fucking hellhole on Earth, where the floors were designed to destroy PCs like mine and the walk from the check-in to the lounge is a Long March in itself, while the lounge to whatever gate they announce is another Long March. The gate is always fluid and changing, only announced an hour prior to departure. Have fun getting 25lb to the gate within 20 minutes!

Over the next half dozen flights, I quickly learned to arrive at the gate early and get on early. Some lady might be trying to keep her Coach purse from contacting the filthy floor of the cabin, but my stakes are much, much higher – sorry ma’am.

And thus, next in line was a SG05. This drastically reduced the size of Ol’ Beastie and her weight as well, but meant a downgrade to a Silverstone 450W SFX as well as a L9x65. By this time, I had swapped in my 4790K instead, so major thermal problems were to be expected. From this time to my Ryzen 3000 upgrade in August 2019, that 4790K was underclocked to 3.5GHz.






The R7 265 also departed in favour of a GTX 750 Ti from EVGA. It was technically a downgrade in graphics performance, but Maxwell held two significant advantages – it was incredibly efficient in thermals and power consumption, and being EVGA, it supported a backplate, which I purchased for $15 extra. Given the nature of this computer, I take any extra rigidity and strength I can get. As for the dying H81I, a H97N-WIFI was substituted instead, with integrated 802.11ac MIMO WIFI being a breath of fresh air compared to the shockingly terrible USB 802.11n adapters of old.






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_to be continued_​


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## tabascosauz (Sep 6, 2019)

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Time, as well as planes , flew by. By this time, it was Ol’ Beastie’s second year in the game, and I was starting to get good at this. I had followed photographers’ advice and swapped the stock 1510 wheels for roller skate wheels that I had bought bulk for $5; they really go the extra mile towards not damaging your expensive equipment contained therein.

By this time, Ol’ Beastie had long since ditched mechanical drives for a pure solid-state setup. Such things are necessary to survive long, arduous journeys where you might expect to get bumped a few times.




The 750 Ti was also starting to get long in the tooth. I had a U2515H to power, now, and GM107 really wasn’t cutting it, however efficient it was. I was eyeing EVGA’s 1070, whose ACX 3.0 cooler is still, in my opinion, a masterpiece of GPU cooler design to this day, but knew that such a card wouldn’t have a chance of fitting in the SG05. The SG08 made a brief return to accommodate the upgrade, but by this time, the NCASE M1 had caught my eye.









That picture of the setup I had then, is a reminder to myself that sharpness and technical perfection is not all there is to a pleasing image, just as one doesn’t need the utmost in performance or the most expensive desk. Sometimes, it just feels……right.

Unrealistic expectations always give way to actual hands-on impressions, but my impression of the M1 was the it was nothing short of gorgeous, especially in comparison to the Silverstones I had been using. There was something about the subtle, silver aluminium with the brushed finish that made me truly love a computer case for the first time since my first, a H440 all those years ago. The front panel fitment wasn’t the greatest, but I didn’t care. The upgrade to the M1 also dragged in a Corsair SF600 to replace the SFX450 (which wasn’t so sure as to if it wanted to keep living); the SF600 is one hell of a trooper, and keeps working today, while the SFX450 is temperamental and good for little else other than a testing piece. The NH-D9L returned, but even then, the 4790K was still kept at 3.5GHz to ensure long life and exhaustively safe temperatures under all conditions.




The 1070 deserves its own paragraph of praise. It’s quiet, with idle fan stop that still allows it to idle at 30-40C with some case airflow. It’s efficient, and draws no more than 144W. It’s powerful, allowing me to run every single one of my games maxed out at 1440p. It’s sturdy, with a cooler that’s minimalistic but built like a tank, integrating a stiff VRM/memory plate and a free backplate to help strengthen things up on the back. Quite honestly, I think it’ll be years or maybe never again before I come across another performance product that is equally built to those exacting standards of build quality and performance.

But then, 2017 was not a good year. 2017 marked the height of my obsession with custom keyboards, which signified Ol’ Beastie’s relegation to “less important hobby” for the better part of the next year, despite the fact that she was and would be my trusty rock for the past two and next two years. 2017 brought about pretty serious illness, and I had to return home to recuperate. Something something liability something something not fit to study for health reasons something something.

Over the next two years, I completely neglected Ol’ Beastie’s health. My sole Metrovac ED500 had been 220V, and I had left it in Britain. In my defence, there were numerous, more pressing issues to attend to in the meantime – but that’s still no way to treat a faithful friend. You can imagine what I found when I opened her up for the first time in two years in order to clean her up with my new 110V ED500, all in preparation for the Ryzen upgrade. *Intercontinental dust bunnies*; if that wasn’t a thing, it is now. 




In late summer of 2019, after countless betrayals at the hands of Ford and GM on midsize and halfton trucks, and the waning of my keyboard obsession as I teetered on the threshold of endgame with GMK 9009, Classic Retro and TA90, it was finally time to turn my attention to Ol’ Beastie again. Her hardware was getting long in the tooth; strictly speaking, there was nothing wrong with a 4790K, 16GB of 1600 and a 1070, but it was an unsatisfactory setup for more reasons than one.

The 4790K had always been capped to 3.5GHz. With two fans on the D9L, I reckon I could have pushed it to stock base clock (4GHz) without boost without any problems under stress testing, but I just never bothered. As can be expected from 3500MHz Haswell, it wasn’t all that amazing.
I was running out of SSD room, even with a 750GB MX300, a 1TB Blue3D, and a 500GB 850 EVO. When your music library is more than 50GB, with a separate library of items that no longer belong in your main library, as well as a working folder for tags that’s never really cleared of anything, things get full quick. Add other media and a heck ton of photo work in all different file formats, and…well, you get the idea.
Because my Cablemod set only had 2 connectors on its SATA chain, I could only support two 2.5” drives and one in an external enclosure. Not that I would want to do any more than 2 drives internally in the M1 anyways; it’s already a pain to route power and data to them. And since Haswell was pre-M.2, if I wanted to have enough space for things, an upgrade was in order.
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## flmatter (Sep 6, 2019)

Nice Pelican case!    I have a few small ones modified for my glock for my travels. Glad it protected "ol-beastie" well!  Nice set up btw


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

flmatter said:


> Nice Pelican case!    I have a few small ones modified for my glock for my travels. Glad it protected "ol-beastie" well!  Nice set up btw



Thanks for stopping by! 

I personally prefer the smaller ones; the yellow 1300 that I bought earlier this year fits perfectly into my Fjallraven Ovik 20L. But I can't say no to the versatility of the 1510, especially with some hockey tape on the handles and roller skate wheels.

That a full-size or competition Glock, or one of the shorter ones? Pelicans are outrageously popular with gun owners and photographers, and I can honestly see why. I still remember the marketing ad where they ran over the 1510 with a truck


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## potato580+ (Sep 8, 2019)

nice, feel like i can traveling without much worry abt gaming in no time


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## flmatter (Sep 8, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> That a full-size or competition Glock, or one of the shorter ones?


Smaller one, Glock 19.  Only 2 things are stock on it is the frame and slide. Soon I will be getting laser stippling to to get rid of the little nubs.

Yes I love the pelican cases they are great and insides very modular for almost any need.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

flmatter said:


> Smaller one, Glock 19.  Only 2 things are stock on it is the frame and slide. Soon I will be getting laser stippling to to get rid of the little nubs.
> 
> Yes I love the pelican cases they are great and insides very modular for almost any need.



That's very cool. I always say I'm going to go out and get my PAL card and start going to the range, but I never find the time to do it. Something about the G34 and G41 just rub me the right way, something about long slides. It's a purely leisurely thing over here, so I wouldn't be too thrilled about the need for a compact or subcompact.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 10, 2019)

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Months ago, I polled TPU (after years of absence) about whether I should opt for a 2700(X) or a 8700(K). The consensus was that I should wait until the release of Ryzen 3000, to reap the rewards of 7nm and the significant architectural changes. And that is exactly what I did.

For starters, the Ryzen 3700X is a fantastic development for desktop computing. The 7nm node brings rather impressive power efficiency in a desktop context, especially against the backdrop of traditionally power-hungry AMD processors, and Intel’s TDP- and P-state-related fiascos as of late. With improvements to prefetching and the doubling of L3 cache, it and the rest of the Ryzen 5-9 family do much to mend Zen’s traditional weaknesses.

There’s a catch, however. The 3700X is not marketed as a 3.6GHz processor; the highlight is the boost up to 4.4GHz. That boost is highly dependent on temperatures, and you’d better have a 240mm rad or a NH-D15 if you want to make full use of it. And that’s still only if your chip feels like it. If you leave it to do whatever it wants according to PBO, it’ll sustain light load to heavy load voltages between 1.4V-1.5V. “Normal behavior”, if AMD is to be believed. Having Ol’ Beastie devolve into a fireball is not on my bucket list.

Availability of CPUs is good…availability of mini-ITX AM4 boards of any chipset and generation is downright appalling. I had to settle for the B450I Aorus Pro Wifi, and paid extra to have it updated to F42a BIOS before I received it – it doesn’t appear to have an easy USB flashback method. I originally wanted a 32GB kit of 3200C16 Corsair LPX; that idea died quickly with the discovery that it barely posted with even just one stick. A 16GB kit of Trident Z of the same speed, this time with Samsung E-die, boots without issue and will have to suffice for now.

Even brushing aside all of these smaller issues associated with the Ryzen 3000 upgrade, the biggest challenge is still thermals. Suddenly, without manual clock and Vcore settings, the NH-D9L, even with two NF-A9 fans, struggles to provide a comfortable experience. What does this mean? Ryzen 3000 is smart enough to dial back its clocks accordingly with temperature, so there’s no risk of overheating, and the D9L can still sustain boost clocks under load. However, because of the spiky and adaptive nature of the new Ryzen logic, Ol’ Beastie sounds like a turbojet engine continuously being taken on and off afterburner.

Worse yet, many Windows applications are ill-prepared to accommodate Ryzen 3000’s smart logic. In an absolutely hilarious stroke of irony, simply turning on the clocks/temperature histogram setting in AMD’s own Ryzen Master causes continuous boost clock load (and therefore, unavoidable high 40s-50s idle temperature) on the chip’s fastest core.

Not to mention, leaving it on stock boost mechanics with stock variable Vcore results in a veritable fustercluck of WHEA errors every few minutes, while a manual stable voltage 3.6, 4.0, or 4.1GHz clock results in none. And they said to “just leave it be”.

The only way around this roller coaster is to set fixed clocks and non-adaptive Vcore, to force it to behave more like a traditional x86 CPU. This is done on my board by disabling Core Performance Boost, even though disabling the exact same setting on Ryzen 2000 chips retains full Boost functionality; clearly, even on F42a BIOS with AGESA 1.0.0.3ABB, Gigabyte hasn’t worked out the bugs with controlling Ryzen 3000, and it’s not limited to the B450I Aorus alone. Even with manually set clocks, there are thermal barriers that cannot be overcome by disabling boost, when one is nearing 1.4V of Vcore but still falling well short of rated boost clock while reining in 8 hungry 7nm cores powering 16 threads.

As a result, I have been testing manually set clocks, Vcore and LLC settings in an attempt to find the bottom line – in other words, what a 3700X actually needs to achieve different boost speeds. So far, at 4.0GHz, with the help of some stronger LLC, the Vcore has come down from 1.3V to 1.25V, with an effective load voltage of 1.225V. The difference in temperatures is already apparent; suddenly, Prime95 Smallest now maxes out at less than 84 degrees sustained with the case closed, and this marks the first time I have ever seen sub-30C idle temperatures from this chip, even if it's fleeting.




As for the Noctua boys, I returned the C14S (an absolute unit of a cooler, but regrettably doesn’t fit due to the combination of the M1 dictating its orientation and Gigabyte’s AM4 ITX boards having too high up a socket placement) for a U9S. While on open air benches the U9S barely edges out the D9L with one and two fans respectively, when it comes to tight spaces, the D9L’s lack of heatsink surface area _really_ shows. I could put a third A9 on there to turn it into a mini-D15, and it still wouldn’t make a difference. We’ll see how the dual A9 U9S does; I know I shouldn’t jinx myself, but I have high hopes given the experience I have with its predecessor, the U9B SE2.

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## Mussels (Sep 10, 2019)

This was a fun read, my thoughts:

Haswell launched pre m.2, but my Z97 and 4790k actually had m.2 NVME support, just probably never existed in ITX

the ryzen shenanigans you're dealing with can very likely be remedied in your BIOS, just not in ways you're used to
1. voltage offset is better than flat voltage, -0.05 through -0.1 seems the sweet spot before removing any performance
2. Using PBO settings in bios to under-TDP is absolutely amazing, even if confusing to learn. For example i can set my 2700x max wattage to 65W instead of 105W, single core boost remains the same but multi core drops and temps plummet
3. ryzen master while clumsy, allows you to test those settings at a software level before deciding what to use
4. those bugs with readings and high idle clocks seem to be starting to get fixed, new BIOS (agesa ABBA) is due out within days and may help out a lot


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## E-curbi (Sep 10, 2019)

I like your setup pics tabascobro. You can always tell when someone's setup is for getting work completed. 

My keyboard - a plain HHKB Pro 2 Silent Type-S, they only come in the white and gray. Had a black HHKB Pro standard for 3years prior to this board. You get used to the Topre switches fairly easily, now I cannot use any other switch, at least over extended periods.

I do ok with silent Reds or Browns, yet nothing comes close to the Topres in my hands.

Looks like we clean our rigs the same also. I had the white DataVac since 2012, works amazing as long as you keep the filter on the bottom clear of debris. Moved to the black DataVac sku in 2017, for my Dark Knight lol - everything goes black - build.

Really nice thread bro!


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## tabascosauz (Sep 11, 2019)

Mussels said:


> This was a fun read, my thoughts:



Thanks for stopping by! I'm very torn as to what to do with the 4790K, as it's a fantastic piece of silicon, even though I lost the silicon lottery. When my U9S arrives, my D9L will be free to return to sit on DC. Only thing I'm missing is a case (thinking a cheap mATX one now that I've decided to stay on with the M1, and then it'll be able to play anime on the TV. HD 4600 has never let me down for light tasks.

As for Ryzen, I ended on 1.194V last night at 4.0GHz, stable through three runs of P95 Smallest. I don't quite understand how clock offset works yet, even after reading guides. As for 1.0.0.3ABBA, I'm very much looking forward to it. My F42a BIOS is stable, but there are a lot of somewhat broken features (no Cool n Quiet, LLC doesn't use a drop down menu to see all options, etc.).



E-curbi said:


> I like your setup pics tabascobro. You can always tell when someone's setup is for getting work completed.
> 
> My keyboard - a plain HHKB Pro 2 Silent Type-S, they only come in the white and gray. Had a black HHKB Pro standard for 3years prior to this board. You get used to the Topre switches fairly easily, now I cannot use any other switch, at least over extended periods.
> 
> Looks like we clean our rigs the same also. I had the white DataVac since 2012, works amazing as long as you keep the filter on the bottom clear of debris. Moved to the black DataVac sku in 2017, for my Dark Knight lol - everything goes black - build.



Was wondering when you'd drop by bud    that was my setup at school, right before shit hit the metaphorical fan. I wish my home setup was that photogenic; I have neither the natural nor artificial lighting required for that. I really do miss my U2515H and can't wait to get back to it in a year's time. Dell Ultrasharp panels are really good.

I did try a white HHKB Pro 2 a while ago. I think had it for about two weeks. After the initial awkwardness, I did like the Topres quite a lot, even if they weren't of the Type-S, FC660M or Realforce variety. Problem for me was, it was more than 200GBP at the time, and for that price it felt way too light and plasticky for my liking. And I was still only into off-the-shelf Pok3rs and low-profile cases back then, so I can't imagine what I'd think of going to an HHKB from my ~3lb X60R and 2lb+ FMJ. To add insult to injury, the board wobbled, so I sent it back for a refund while I still could. 

I'd still be tempted if I was relying on stock sandy MX switches, but now with a mixture of lubed MX, Gateron and Tealios, I don't think I would be happy with Topre again. I am 120% a linear kinda guy; I can't stand tactile anymore, neither can I handle anything heavier than a Gateron Yellow.

I'm kinda in a limbo state with my three boards right now. Once I find the time to snap a photo of the new O-co Dolch, I'll probably put some boards on this thread. 

The X60R is waiting for its 5mm brass plate and extra (already extra) PCB, upon receipt of which the board can undergo its rebuild. I don't know why I cut the switch legs off my Tealios back then, but because of that poor choice, several keys are not very well aligned; being the most valuable jewel of the lot with a ton of spare parts to last the ages, I'm going to build it again. 
The Instant60 has been massively improved upon switching out the retooled MX Reds (verified fixable with lube, but the switch tops catch on my Cherry profile sets, and I don't have enough pre-retool top housings to swap all the keys I need to) for good ol' Gateron Yellows. It's still sitting in the Klippe R1 case with subpar anodization, because it's waiting on its red T60 case, set to ship together with the X60's 5mm plate.
The FMJ is the only board that is "completed", so to speak. Because it's so quiet, it's my go-to board before the X60 gets rebuilt. It's sporting kinda-rare pre-retool MX Silent Reds, all lubed with GHV4. Smooth as hell and literally inaudible - truly a board worthy of a library. 
DSA Hyperfuse and GMK TA90 are vying for the X60's attention, while the Instant60 is trying out the O-co GMK Dolch set. GMK 9009 R2 in its green accent form, with bits from GMK Classic Retro, continues to adorn the FMJ. I'm finally at a point where I'm done with keyset buying, because these timeless classics are here to stay, in addition to some others like GMK Sky Dolch and vintage SE700 TA that'll be joining me again as they come home across the pond. The rest are slowly going to go up on mechmarket at some point. 


As always, hip-hip-hurray for the Datavac! It always elicits a chuckle when I see forum users throwing criticism at the ED500 that they've never used, saying that you'll never make the investment back compared to cans of compressed air. Uh, between not freezing your hands and computer, not multiplying the damage we're doing to the environment, and not being terrible to use, the ED500 pays for itself as soon as it arrives . Just remember your hearing protection, ahahah. That thing gets loud.


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## E-curbi (Sep 11, 2019)

Enthusiasts actually defending canned air? Hmmm, the cans cost about $6each, so after quantity (10) which equates to the cost of one white DataVac sku, those enthusiasts have nothing.

They go out and buy more canned air. 

Although the DataVac is not perfect, it's about 5-10times the pressure of air-in-a-can. I went through a few cans of air when I first began this hobby back in 2012, didn't take me long to figure out the cost of ownership over time COOOT! Was going to be *much less by investing in an electric blower.*

COOOT, I like that funky new acronym. lol 

I used the white DataVac for about 5years, then went with the black sku purely for aesthetic reasons along with a new build, but don't see any reason why a DataVac would not last 10-15years easy, if you keep the filter clean.

Wish the DataVac would offer a low speed along with the current high speed. I have to run my DataVac at a far distance away when cleaning delicate parts like socket pins, tiny spring assemblies, and small graphics card fans in fear of damage. A low speed would solve that issue.

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I took to the HHKB layout almost immediately, it seems so natural, the Control key next to your left pinky, Backspace directly above Return. 60% form factor, your mouse three inches from your right typing hand. I set up the dip switches to my liking and got right to work.

My only issue was out the the box, the HHKB Pro 2s slide all over your desktop. I first used Sorbothane Hemispheres to hold the board in place and add some lift to the front edge offering a more natural angle for typing. Then PFU-Fujitsu began offering a self-adhesive noise absorption mat, that works with amazing results, sticks your board to your desk tight, and does indeed absorb a small bit of noise energy from the Topre keys.

There's no real way to get around the overall higher cost of the HHKB Pro 2, especially if grabbing the Type-S sku with the noise dampened keys then adding another set of PBT keycaps either printed or blank, then the anti-noise mat, then add a PFU transparent gray tinted dust cover plus shipping from a Japanese proxy for the extra mods, and yea it's a $500 keyboard at that point. 

If typing long hours daily the board can also save you a great deal of finger and hand/wrist related pain and fatigue and potential medical conditions and expenses, plus factor in the ROI for your work.

The HHKB is not for everyone or every use case, obviously. But if you TYPE all day long 8-10hours, the board can keep you comfortable.

Long hours of typing can also be remedied by a set of those therapeutic squeeze grips and of course, a great set of boobs.


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## Vario (Sep 11, 2019)

Nice Metro Duster, I have one and it's one of the best accessories I have bought.  I went high airflow with my case by ditching all my restrictive dust screens and filters, I just use the datablaster every month or two, and the whole case is always dust free, cooler, and quieter without the restriction.


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## E-curbi (Sep 11, 2019)

Vario said:


> Nice Metro Duster, I have one and it's one of the best accessories I have bought.  I went high airflow with my case by ditching all my restrictive dust screens and filters, I just use the datablaster every month or two, and the whole case is always dust free, cooler, and quieter without the restriction.



Yup, I used the Demciflex superfine mesh filters with an enclosed case back in 2014, and if you want to create a medical grade hermetically-sealed clean room environment they will do that for you.

My graphics card idled way up at 46C, crazy VRM temps ddr4 temps - every component ran a bit warmer.

*And with a DataVac cleaning once a week or twice a month, the filters really are not so necessary.*

Although, there is something positive to be said when looking in through the side window of such an absolute dust free enclosure, it's a remarkable sight to behold and that warm flow of air exiting out the rear 120mm exhaust, yea one of those pristine enthusiast moments to enjoy. If only once.


----------



## tabascosauz (Sep 12, 2019)

E-curbi said:


> The HHKB is not for everyone or every use case, obviously. But if you TYPE all day long 8-10hours, the board can keep you comfortable.
> 
> Long hours of typing can also be remedied by a set of those therapeutic squeeze grips and of course, a great set of boobs.



In the beginning, I could still use MX Browns. In my old setup photo, you can still see my Filco MJ2 in its Tex alu case, and unfortunately the stock MX Blacks on that one proved to be too heavy and scratchy (MX Black bottoms out at 80N, but retools seem slightly lighter and smoother).

Somewhere along the line, Gateron Yellow spoiled me and now I can only use relatively light linears. I type a lot, but I have had bad RSI for some time in my right hand. 

I'd say thick lubed MX Silent Reds are akin to an infant's chubby cheek, they're that good. Not too far off from a supple pair of boobs  



Vario said:


> Nice Metro Duster, I have one and it's one of the best accessories I have bought.  I went high airflow with my case by ditching all my restrictive dust screens and filters, I just use the datablaster every month or two, and the whole case is always dust free, cooler, and quieter without the restriction.



Thanks for stopping by. Good to see more people using the ED500.

I remember buying a complete set of Demci for my M1, but I only have the top panel filter (sits on the exterior, matches the colour) and the PSU fan one. Not sure where everything else went, but they weren't very useful. Now instead of just the side 120mm, now I have an A12 on the side and an A12 below the GPU, so I just gotta remember to blow it out often. These A12s move air like crazy even through vented panels.


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## E-curbi (Sep 12, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> In the beginning, I could still use MX Browns. In my old setup photo, you can still see my Filco MJ2 in its Tex alu case, and unfortunately the stock MX Blacks on that one proved to be too heavy and scratchy (MX Black bottoms out at 80N, but retools seem slightly lighter and smoother).
> 
> Somewhere along the line, Gateron Yellow spoiled me and now I can only use relatively light linears. I type a lot, but I have had bad RSI for some time in my right hand.
> 
> ...


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## E-curbi (Sep 12, 2019)

I have that keyboard cover in that guy's pic, and it's PFU sweet as honey. 

Although working everyday, I only top it off when we go out of town, which adds up to nothing in relation to dust accumulation yet gives me a feeling of finality - I'm not working here for awhile, which is absolutely priceless.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 12, 2019)

--------

Time for something a little different!

*NerD60 / (GHv4 lubed, original tooling) MX Silent Red / FMJ "R4" (Originative) / GMK 9009 R2 + GMK Classic Retro R1*






*Instant60 / (stock for now) Gateron Yellow / Klippe R1 / GMK Dolch (Originative)*






*260 / (stock) Tealios / X60 R / GMK Classic Retro + GMK RGBY*






--------​


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## E-curbi (Sep 12, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> --------
> 
> Time for something a little different!
> 
> ...


So pretty! I Love!


----------



## tabascosauz (Oct 3, 2019)

-----​
Thus has transpired the next stage of Ol' Beastie's overhaul. While she has been lounging in the trunks of cars and putt-putting comfortably around town for the last two years or so, the long haul nightmare will begin again in less than a year's time, so it's time to beef her up and burn in some new parts!

Here's the old girl before things get started:

​
The D9L was originally chosen because of its 115mm height, as opposed to the U9B or U9S' 125mm height. But in the end, its height advantage was for naught, as the NF-A9 sticks out to the same height anyways. Consequently, it offers no clearance advantage, while lacking in heatsink surface area compared to the traditional U9 towers. It has since gone, in favour of a U9S. The U9S cools ever so slightly better, but is quieter in doing so, which is a win. With the newfound Vcore and boost tweaks, the U9S sits comfortably atop the 3700X with 2 x A9s. 

The F12 is not particularly loud, save for when it's being run at full speed (pretty much never, as it is a PWM fan). However, things have changed; the A12x25 is nearly silent throughout most of its RPM range, and even at full load, you can only really hear the air moving through it and a faint whine. The F12 at full speed has a much more low-pitched and pronounced whine. With two A12x25s, I'm now able to feed both the CPU and the GPU directly with cool air. At higher speeds, the dual A12x25s provide massive, clearly tangible amounts of positive pressure inside the case, to the point where an exhaust 92mm is no longer needed - hence, the A9x14's removal. 

Next up was the 1070. The 1070 ACX 3.0 is a beautiful engineering marvel, that's built to last the ages. Unfortunately, the combination of being unable to support a GPU brace, constant travels, and the passage of time have introduced a noticeable bend to the card, despite the stiffness provided by the ACX 3.0 and the backplate. Having just exited its warranty period, the 1070 is in need of replacement. It has been supplanted by a RTX 2060 Super, bought directly from Nvidia. The FE cooler is built even stiffer and more solid than ACX 3.0 with a backplate that wraps around and joins to the cooler, while being considerably shorter, which leaves a good bit of room for 2.5" drives, cables and I/O up front. I've also gotten my hands on large, dual-ended fibreglass standoffs that are roughly the right height for a GPU support if they are mounted in the bottom of the case. Time will tell if the 2060S will need it.

Meanwhile, the 1070 will go into my secondary TJ08 rig, which should prove beneficial to it as the motherboard orientation is upside down in that enclosure. Here's hoping that gravity works its magic again by bending it back the other way. More on that rig later.

And so, as of October, this is what she looks like:






--------​


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## sexpot (Oct 4, 2019)

FE RTX cards are so classy, love it!


----------



## potato580+ (Oct 4, 2019)

a must bu


tabascosauz said:


> -----​
> Thus has transpired the next stage of Ol' Beastie's overhaul. While she has been lounging in the trunks of cars and putt-putting comfortably around town for the last two years or so, the long haul nightmare will begin again in less than a year's time, so it's time to beef her up and burn in some new parts!
> 
> Here's the old girl before things get started:
> ...


a must buy


----------



## E-curbi (Oct 4, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> -----​
> Thus has transpired the next stage of Ol' Beastie's overhaul. While she has been lounging in the trunks of cars and putt-putting comfortably around town for the last two years or so, the long haul nightmare will begin again in less than a year's time, so it's time to beef her up and burn in some new parts!
> 
> Here's the old girl before things get started:
> ...



Wow congratulations bro! 

Looks like you received a graphics upgrade along with an aesthetic and chassis air flow upgrade as well. 
*
That sweet girl is TIGHT! *

LOL, that's what he said!


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Oct 5, 2019)

I am jealous you spend so many years with your girl.  She is still looking beautiful and even better with that makeover. Seems like she is becoming even younger.

Awesome upgrade for those Noctua sterrox fans, the new amd and new RTX card.


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## tabascosauz (Jan 30, 2020)

Red is most definitely in. 







With the T60, lubed MX Silent Reds feel *so* good. Night Blue T60 on the way as well, gonna test out a new Dolch + TA90 combination with that one. The lubed Ink Reds in the other board pair well with the T60 too, but the Silent Reds are just...perfect. The lack of centre and spacebar posts helps a lot; with just the two left and two right screw posts, there's just the right amount of flex in the board to make for a soft-bottomed, thocky experience. 

Not much new on the rig front; everything's just stable. The BR1500MS does its job every day with no complaints. I never thought I'd need a UPS before now, but this chunky brick saves me from an average of two brownouts a week. But I did dig this one out of the closet. I originally bought it for my first gen 12" Macbook, but it was a terrible laptop and supplanted by the XPS 13 for quite some time. I didn't realize that the CalDigit dock still works with anything that has a USB-C port. Helps me out a lot with connecting to my D610, M10-B, OP6T, external HDDs and SSDs, mic, and more. 






These mini-ITX boards are always really short on I/O; it's super frustrating. Neither did mine have a C port, but the 2060 Super stepped in again to save the day with its Virtualink USB-C. It ain't the first time, either; the TU106 USB controller has always liked my Instant60 much more than the B450 PCH does. 

And who said the FE cards are a bad buy??


----------



## robot zombie (Jan 30, 2020)

I also wind up putting that same G.Skill badge on external peripherals. Unconsciously... every time I get one it winds up on an external HDD. I save all of the others in... an empty G.Skill RAM box, now that I think about it. I feel like I've seen it a lot, too. Sure, people do that with all sorts of badges, but that exact G.Skill one keeps popping up in pictures of little USB boxes... more than others. Almost always alone. I'm looking at my seagate 1tb HDD right now and wondering if this might be part of a previously unexplored Jungian archetype.


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## potato580+ (Jan 30, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Red is most definitely in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


whos it? some of em maybe, not rly bad i own few fe/ref/blow model aswell, and it never crash even on high temp, usually 80-90c , as for me downside is noisy fan only


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## tabascosauz (Jan 30, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> I also wind up putting that same G.Skill badge on external peripherals. Unconsciously... every time I get one it winds up on an external HDD. I save all of the others in... an empty G.Skill RAM box, now that I think about it. I feel like I've seen it a lot, too. Sure, people do that with all sorts of badges, but that exact G.Skill one keeps popping up in pictures of little USB boxes... more than others. Almost always alone. I'm looking at my seagate 1tb HDD right now and wondering if this might be part of a previously unexplored Jungian archetype.



The drives always feel a bit too naked, so maybe these stickers can be a good luck charm of sorts    I only have two of these newer G.skill stickers from the D-die kit and the current DJR kit, but I could have sworn there was a third from my old DDR3 Sniper kit that I gave away on here years ago...anyhow, it didn't make it onto my 1510, so whatever.

When in doubt, buy a Pelican. It allows you to collect stickers of all sorts while looking cool, always. 



potato580+ said:


> whos it? some of em maybe, not rly bad i own few fe/ref/blow model aswell, and it never crash even on high temp, usually 80-90c , as for me downside is noisy fan only



Nah, the axial FE coolers are good, especially the larger ones on the 2070 Super and above (2070 and below have the smaller one and run a few degrees hotter). Reasonably competitive with AIBs' dual-fan cards. It's just that the value isn't really there, since Nvidia just sells them at regular price and doesn't put them on sale. Although, I will say, I was glad to have paid some extra $$ getting it off the Nvidia website, because it was processed and shipped to my door before Newegg would have even started picking the product out of the warehouse!

It took a while for mine to break in and tame its coil whine. FE also doesn't have idle fan stop, and without the A12x25 feeding it directly from the bottom, the card would be in the low 80s in games (now it's at 69-72c). But nothing's perfect; I'd say the build quality, the small size, the 3-year direct warranty, the turnaround time and the USB-C port more than make up for all that.

Noise-wise, nothing's noisy. Not after you've experienced a first-generation R9 280X Vapor-X, a rebranded _overclocked_ 7970GHz.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 27, 2020)

At some point, I'm going to have to be honest with myself: I hate building small form factor. 

I love the way these NCASE M1s, DAN-A4s, SM580s and Ghost S1s look. I love the way they fit in anywhere and go just about anywhere. I love the way the M1 fits in my Pelican 1510. But I *hate *cutting up my hands every time I need to contort a fan or SATA cable to get it where it needs to go. Or when I need to go through a A12x25, an audio cable, a A9, and the U9S heatsink just to reach the CMOS jumper so the computer can actually POST again.

The U9S is a great cooler - there's no doubt about that. But the advent of Matisse has essentially made it unbearable to use these stout 92mm coolers like the D9L and U9S because of the insane temperature and fan speed ramping at idle. Over these past 9 months, I've thrown every trick in the book at it: 3.6 or 4.0GHz fixed frequency, PPT undervolting, adding hysteresis to fans, custom fan curves, undervolting with LLC mitigation, and the EDC trick. Only lower fixed frequency quietens the fans at idle, but the single-core and multi-core performance penalties are hard to swallow on a $459 SKU. 

65W TDP my ass. Yeah, an Intel 65W part might peak at 150W power draw, but at least it idles like a 65W part. Every time Chrome opens or Windows Defender wants to do a scan, the 3700X immediately starts reaching for the stars like a Whipple'd Coyote.

For fuck's sake, I can sometimes hear the A9s screaming through my headphones while on the Windows desktop. 

The only solution to this problem is to go bigger to 120mm/140mm coolers whose larger and quieter fans don't suffer from these problems, or to water. Problem is, none of the 120mm/140mm towers fit (obviously) in the M1, and the only one that fits (my topflow C14S) still won't because of Gigabyte's stupid socket placement on every single one of its existing ITX boards, which prevents the top panel from closing in the M1. Water obviously isn't a solution, because all it takes is one technology-illiterate Border Force agent in a bad mood, and that's the end of my entire computer.

The icing on the cake is that none of the B450 boards that have an acceptable socket placement for the C14S are available at _all_, and B550 boards aren't yet released and are poised to be priced like the $350+ X570 SKUs that are already around.

------

On a more positive note, old parts aren't actually dead. There's not been any video output in BIOS for some time now (otherwise works fine in Windows), but was unable to reach the CMOS jumper without removing the entire motherboard tray from the TJ08. Reset CMOS, and everything is back to normal. 






If this one has to give up the C14S in case I am able to get a B550 board for Ol' Beastie, I've been thinking of getting a U12A instead. Unfortunately, the entire hardware market is all but dead right now with products either entirely MIA or priced out of their minds. 

I did pick up a set of dark blue cables for the Focus Plus Platinum from Cablemod (who previously did the custom color sleeving in my M1), so once it's all back in the TJ08 with the new sleeved cables, it'll be time to give the backup rig the photo op it deserves.


----------



## Mussels (May 27, 2020)

Yeah the way ryzens read high at idle messes with a lot of fan curves, i just adjusted mine to be flat X% until 60C

fortunately for my ITX build, i can use an upright dark rock slim, which means i can reach everything easily


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## tabascosauz (May 27, 2020)

Mussels said:


> Yeah the way ryzens read high at idle messes with a lot of fan curves, i just adjusted mine to be flat X% until 60C
> 
> fortunately for my ITX build, i can use an upright dark rock slim, which means i can reach everything easily



The most infuriating part of all this is that it could be easy solvable if AMD wasn't a goddamn miser, and opened up access to the other CPU die temp sensors to motherboard fan control.

No motherboard is currently able to leverage the Tdie sensor, which is pretty much what Ryzen Master reads and has none of the stupid spikes at idle. Instead, they all are still forced to use the traditional Tctl/Tdie sensor which has the nonsensical rollercoaster idle. Tdie has been visible in software for months now, so exactly how much work would be needed to open it up to BIOS and for the vendors to add it to the list of sensor options?

Instead, because AMD regards such things as proprietary and only accessible through its own software, we're stuck here with fan control slaved to this idiotic sensor that harkens from the AM3 days. It's the same deal as with FX and Zen: sensor is wildly off at idle, but at load it's right in line. Except this time, we even have other sensors that function correctly, we're just not allowed to use them.

I couldn't contain my resentment for all this, so I ended up ordering a Dark Rock 4 Pro that'll be here next week.

Be it the unpopular opinion on this forum, regardless of how great the hardware product is, I maintain that Intel's firmware support since Sandy Bridge makes AMD's AGESA look like it's Fisher Price trying to write computer software.


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## Mussels (May 27, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> The most infuriating part of all this is that it could be easy solvable if AMD wasn't a goddamn miser, and opened up access to the other CPU die temp sensors to motherboard fan control.
> 
> No motherboard is currently able to leverage the Tdie sensor, which is pretty much what Ryzen Master reads and has none of the stupid spikes at idle. Instead, they all are still forced to use the traditional Tctl/Tdie sensor which has the nonsensical rollercoaster idle. Tdie has been visible in software for months now, so exactly how much work would be needed to open it up to BIOS and for the vendors to add it to the list of sensor options?
> 
> ...



I wont argue against your views here - in fact my only real problem with AMD platform right now is in fact, the silly temp readings.

Current | Min | Max | Average





Some of these numbers look totally legit, others look "oh god why" hot - silent settings on an ITX build make the TDie numbers totally reasonable
(DX11 heavy gaming session, for reference)


----------



## tabascosauz (May 29, 2020)

CC had Dark Rock Pro 4s in stock, so I went and picked one up today instead of gambling on which day I might get it within Amazon's May 29 to June 10 window.

First impressions are astonishing. Stock settings before yielded 4890-4930pts in R20. Now, I'm up to 4950-4990 bone stock. No PBO, regular voltages. Even broke my previous record of 4985 (when it was custom tweaked PBO with the EDC trick and everything full blast) with a score of 4991, again, bone stock. CPU-Z scores improved as well, especially the consistency of the ST score. All-core clocks as high as PBO previously, bone stock.

Just goes to show that while Ryzen runs hot, good cooling still pays off. And it was not the fault of insufficient paste coverage after all; 92mm towers just can't stay quiet *and* cool at the same time on these chips.






While I didn't necessarily "lose" performance with the U9S, the 3700X was short of its full potential. I suspect that the initial speculation over PB2 temperature limits is true after all; outside of the usual power and voltage limits, all core clocks begin scaling back immediately after either the 65C or 70C mark.

CPU-Z reaches only 65C, and CB reaches no more than 72C every run. Only a couple degrees' difference, but *much* quieter and temperatures are much more stable as well. That's the size and fin area difference in action.






The DRP4 is a fantastic cooler. It wasn't my first choice, as I am a lifelong Noctua user and wanted a D15 or U12A instead, but neither could be had for a reasonable price. The fans on the DRP4 are actually silent; even at 100% speed, it's legitimately hard to hear them. It goes without saying that there are no more idle fan spikes.

Although the TJ08B makes things difficult to reach at the top of the board (tray needs to come out again to reach the top screws, CPU fan header, or EPS), the case itself has a little adjustable support that helps prop up heavy coolers and reduce PCB bowing. Perfect for the DRP4.

*However, *it isn't Noctua. The cooler is gorgeous; it's the bundled accessories, packaging, and mounting hardware that make it obvious. The styrofoam that wraps around the cooler. The basic instructions. The mounting hardware has been much improved over previous generations, but still nowhere near Secufirm's ease of installation. That's all still manageable though, except for this:






Fuck these fan clips. Noctua's 92mm clips on the left for comparison. Just how much effort would it take to put an angled tab in the middle of each one so that one doesn't need the help of tweezers to attach and remove them?

Proper photo op later. So far very glad I made the decision to put my main rig into the TJ08.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jun 18, 2020)

I sent my 2060 Super for RMA, because it was buzzing like crazy 24/7 as long as the computer was on. You could hear it from the next room over. It turns out that these FE cards all have coil whine, but at least this replacement 2060S is relatively quiet at idle. Previously, the coil whine could be heard through DT770s 

The faster cards with the short FE cooler (2060S, 2070) run hotter and the inverted layout of the TJ08 doesn't help either, but a mild Afterburner undervolt brings max load temperatures down to 70C from 74-76C. The RL08's revised inverted layout with direct 120mm x 2 airflow for the GPU probably fares much better, but the TJ08 is a much more handsome case than the RL08, so that's something I'll have to think about.






It's about time I got around to testing lower Vcore limits on the 4790K as well. 6 years, and I've not really explored whether the stock 84C Prime95 temps under a C14S are because the chip is a bad bin, or because Gigabyte is overvolting the chip at stock.






There's not been much exciting on the hardware front lately, save for the B550 release. I'm thinking of picking up a mATX board. The B450 I Aorus Pro Wifi that I have had since last August leaves much to be desired; it lacks a USB-C on the back, appears incapable of handling anything more than a 65W 8-core due to there being only 4 true phases, a crappy heatsink and an artificially imposed power limit, has a poor socket placement that pushes larger coolers right into the top (or in my case, bottom) of the case.

The B550M Mortar and B550M Steel Legend currently have my attention. The Mortar appears to have the slightly stronger VRM (though both are very respectable) and better heatsinks, as well as a front USB-C header and BIOS flashback; the Steel Legend has better rear I/O, provisions for self-installing Wifi, and much better Clear CMOS button on the rear I/O. Getting either of these boards is guaranteed to make my life a lot easier in accessing connectors in the TJ08, and will also allow me to add back the 120mm exhaust that it's missing right now.

Not sure exactly what I will do.


----------



## biffzinker (Jun 18, 2020)

Techspot put up an article today for B550 motherboard's VRM temperatures. Might be worth a look?








						AMD B550 Motherboard First Look & VRM Temperature Test
					

At long last AMD more budget-oriented B550 motherboards will finally go on sale. There's been plenty of talk about the B550 chipset and all the supporting boards...




					www.techspot.com


----------



## Caring1 (Jun 18, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> The faster cards with the short FE cooler (2060S, 2070) run hotter and the inverted layout of the TJ08 doesn't help either


Nah, those FEs are just a shit design.
The only outlets for the air is towards the motherboard, or against the side of the case.
The really need a vented side on the case.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jun 18, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> Nah, those FEs are just a shit design.
> The only outlets for the air is towards the motherboard, or against the side of the case.
> The really need a vented side on the case.



Actually, despite what I thought, leaving the side panel off whether normal layout or inverted has a barely 1-2C effect on the FE. The problem here is lack of direct GPU airflow. In the TJ08, it's fighting both natural convection and the PSU fan. In the M1, with just one A12x25 feeding air directly to it, the 2060S at stock voltage is about 6 degrees cooler, which is the same temp it gets now in the TJ08 with a healthy undervolt.

Also gotta remember that the short FE card is only 9" in length. The smallest 2060S, the Zotac Mini with 3 heatpipes, runs slightly hotter being half an inch shorter but also about that much taller than the FE. There's no doubt that a more "open" and function-over-form design might help it a bit, but my "standard length" dual fan EVGA 1070 is a whopping 10.6". Of course it would cool better. It's also nowhere near as structurally rigid as my 2060S.

On a side note, the larger FE on the 2070S and 2080 are also 10.6" and cool roughly as well as my 1070 while taming a much faster, larger and hotter chip.


----------



## Fry178 (Jun 18, 2020)

@tabascosauz
u got so much inside on pc hw, yet you leave cords coiled/bundled up (magnetic fields anyone)?  

@Caring1
most MSI gaming are getting the lowest temps for aircooled cards, yet they exhaust their air to board/case (sidepanel) as well,
outside a blower style card having another 1x2in opening is not gonna make a difference worth noting.
and i usually take some tape or silencing foam to cover the rear panel area, so i dont get unfiltered air inside, and never seen temps higher than expected.

here a FLIR image showing there is virtually no (hot) air being pushed towards rear of the case/panel,
so those couple of cuts could as well be sealed.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 15, 2020)

In the end, the Silverstone TJ08-E adventure didn't work out nearly as well as I had hoped. Even with a -0.10V undervolt, the GPU was really cooking in there. Maybe a RL08 would have been much better with its dedicated GPU airflow, but it doesn't look like today’s Silverstone appreciates the timeless design of the TJ08 nearly as much as the modern plasticky copycats that are the RL08 and KL07.

QC was also somewhat suspect on my TJ08. Parts of certain panels were noticeably bent, not horrendously so, but enough to make certain case screws quite uncooperative and severely reduce the useful lifespan of screw threads. The worst offender was the fact that the rear SECC panel was deformed near the I/O area, making I/O shield fitment a perpetually cursed affair. Overall, not a particularly good time, and a letdown compared to the Silverstone of legends past.

Enter the Cerberus, a nice [but kinda overpriced] 18L mATX case:





(photo actually taken after the build was done, that’s how clean a white Cerberus looks!)

It matches the upcoming mini-ITX NR200 in volume, yet the Cerberus fits micro-ATX boards. Since the best air coolers compatible with the Cerberus are the chunky C14S and Dark Rock TF, socket placement is pretty important with respect to the 24-pin and top of the board. Found that out the hard way with my B450-I Aorus in the M1.

The matte white 2mm powdercoated panels are the star of the Cerberus’ show (or any Sliger case for that matter). They are seriously solid. The NCASE M1, DAN-A4 and other spawn of the Lian-Li factory sport smooth, brushed 1.5mm panels that are aesthetic as hell, but the Cerberus panels are on another level in terms of finish and robustness.

By comparison, the steel frame isn’t much to write home about, but it is painted to the same standards as the white panels. This is another area where the Cerberus has a major leg up on my M1 – side by side, both filled up with heavy hardware, the M1’s frame flexes a considerable amount. That’s not to say the M1’s frame is any thinner, but perhaps a better optimised design and a full motherboard tray go a long way in ensuring structural rigidity. On that subject, however, the Cerberus could use some reinforcement in the back. It’s an obvious consequence of its versatility, as part the back panel must be interchangeable to accommodate the internal SFX / rear SFX / rear ATX configurations, but hey, could be better.






It will not fit an ATX power supply in front, however, which is probably for the best. Didn’t want to buy yet another cable kit, so the SGX-650 fit the bill as most Focus and Prime Seasonics share cable compatibility with one another. I do have a soft spot for the 550W Plat, so it’ll probably be tasked with running some old IVB/Haswell hardware on the testbench.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 15, 2020)

Onwards...






Every part fits into the Cerberus like a glove. The tray cutout is massive. There are zip tie / cable tiedowns everywhere. The “infinite vent” system makes it easy to place fans exactly where you want ‘em, and doubles as a massive field of tiedown locations wherever there aren’t any fans.

And since I ran it with the Plat 550W connected externally on the desk as I waited for the SFX-L 650W, that part of the build was a complete breeze and done in a jiffy. The only cable management I had to do was coax the 8-pin EPS to run in a smooth fashion across the top of the board, with the help of some cable ties.

Well, that was the easy part.

I didn’t opt for a SF750 Platinum because: 1) I had no idea that Corsair had pulled a massive upgrade on us original SF Gold users by bundling SFF-length sleeved cables with the new SF Plat, and; 2) it is my general experience over the years that “SFF-length” cabling on SFX units generally doesn’t reach, well, just about anything when outside of a <15L ITX build. In particular, the 4+4 pin EPS is the main concern. In my M1, my custom order SFF-length Cablemod cables barely reach the top left corner of any ITX board and don’t have any slack left for creative cable management. And so, my reasoning was that keeping the long EPS off the blue SE-series kit would give me much more wiggle room to run it the way I saw fit.






What I also failed to remember is that unlike the EPS, the *24-pin* is no farther away than it is in a mini-ITX case. The result: a stubborn blue anaconda of titanic proportions that had to be contorted to fit in the small space hemmed in by the GPU, the tiny space between the front panel and the frontmost NF-A14, and the front panel. So yeah, as the picture shows, that 24-pin really gets around.

But with all things said and done, it really isn’t that bad. It is still Small Form Factor, but everything is laid out in a way that parts aren’t any more difficult to access than if they were still housed in the TJ08-E, for instance. Pop in a 3-fan 2080 Ti Strix and it might be a different story, but this was one of the more laid-back build experiences I’ve had. I just wish I could say the same thing for the TJ08-E and its socket placement woes, or the M1v5’s eternal vendetta against the 24-pin.

I suppose the ideal plan would be to use a full-length CPU cable and SATA power chain with a SFF-length PCIe and 24-pin. Oh well.


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## robot zombie (Aug 15, 2020)

That case makes me want to do an ITX build so bad. So clean. Very nice build.


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## Mussels (Aug 15, 2020)

that looks nuts for a case with matx support


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Aug 15, 2020)

WHAT THE HECK! when did you buy this Cerberus! Shipping to SG here cost a bomb for that case so I passed on it! Damn that is one clean build! Don't tempt me any more I can build a house with my itx cases now. The ceberus reminded me of my short stint with my Jonsbo RM2 case which is pretty much the same volume but alot less customisable without mods.

I thought I would be at the end of the road going the "ultimate" sff build with my Ryzen 3900x laptop but dang those are clean!

I love itx builds but it requires a sort of minimalist mindset where you cut out unneeded fluff or things. The biggest downside with itx I find is storage having to deal with external hdd. SSD cannot match it for bulk storage. Also itx requires so much planning and maintenance is just harder. In a way a well thought off atx case may save space overall by offering all options if required.


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## tabascosauz (Aug 15, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> That case makes me want to do an ITX build so bad. So clean. Very nice build.



Sliger's SM550/560/570/580 are calling  hell, you could get a Cerberus X and fit everything you have in there. You'd just have to give up the Dark Rock 4. I'm not even sure what exactly you would lose from moving to a C14S; it's generally about 2.5C hotter now than it was on the massive Dark Rock Pro 4 but worlds quieter, even with the 2000rpm iPPC A14.



Mussels said:


> that looks nuts for a case with matx support



That's what I thought at first as well. The Cerberus is really just a larger, better M1, but the motherboard really makes a huge difference. With any ITX board, regardless of how high-end:

Socket placement too high - can't use the C14S, if you rotate it then heatpipes hit GPU. Socket too low - no space to reach the release lever on the PCIe slot with your hand. 
VRM heatsink too tall like on the Impact or ASRock boards makes a number of coolers incompatible.
Almost every ITX board has the 8-pin EPS on the _left _side of the top left mounting hole and jammed up against the heatsink and/or rear I/O shield, making it impossible to remove a tight connector without taking the board out and disconnecting absolutely everything else.
Most decent mATX boards have fan header(s) along the bottom. ITX boards can't, so the fans on the bottom of the case need an extension to reach the headers at the top. Or you could have the sole case fan header stuck in the bottom right between the PCIe slot and the RAM slots, where the GPU, fan cable, USB 3.0/Type C cable and front I/O end up playing this awkward game of Twister.



MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I love itx builds but it requires a sort of minimalist mindset where you cut out unneeded fluff or things. The biggest downside with itx I find is storage having to deal with external hdd. SSD cannot match it for bulk storage. Also itx requires so much planning and maintenance is just harder. In a way a well thought off atx case may save space overall by offering all options if required.



Reddit always makes it look easy and accessible, but in the end the same holds true in 2020 as in 2012 sans the advent of M.2 magnifying the effect even further: without condensing your storage down into one or two large SSDs, it's going to be a painful time. 

I guess everyone in the SFF crowd sooner or later accepts this reality and learns to only install the programs that they strictly need. It's always funny to see a lot of these cases advertise their "versatile support for 3.5" HDDs". Like, have you even seen any of the builds in your case geared towards mechanical storage? The way the cable management looks in there belies the extreme suffering that the builder had to endure to get the whole thing to come together.


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## robot zombie (Aug 15, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Sliger's SM550/560/570/580 are calling  hell, you could get a Cerberus X and fit everything you have in there. You'd just have to give up the Dark Rock 4. I'm not even sure what exactly you would lose from moving to a C14S; it's generally about 2.5C hotter now than it was on the massive Dark Rock Pro 4 but worlds quieter, even with the 2000rpm iPPC A14.


Oh just stop. Now I'm looking at the builds on their product page and it's making my brain go "where's my notepad?" Nothing good ever happens when I start drawing in that notepad. That Cerberus X looks really interesting. Tons of possibilities in such a tiny case. They can even fit a couple of small rads and combo res.

You've legit just opened me up to a few potential paths for my next upgrade round. Stuff to keep in mind when I gear up for a new GPU/ram addition. For a while I've been set on converting the whole thing to liquid along with some aesthetic upgrades when I did that... little overhaul around a solid 3900x base (be silly not to keep that for a long time,) but now I don't know. That case looks like a more rewarding challenge. It's all your fault. Calling me into the fire.


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## Fry178 (Aug 16, 2020)

@tabascosauz 

did you look at the Tt ITX/Matx cubes?

F1 mini

V1


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## Mussels (Aug 16, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @tabascosauz
> 
> did you look at the Tt ITX/Matx cubes?
> 
> ...



thermaltake 
*vomits*


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## tabascosauz (Aug 16, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> @tabascosauz
> 
> did you look at the Tt ITX/Matx cubes?
> 
> ...



I've known of the Core line since it came out, when there was that whole commotion about the Core X1 being a low quality Mercury S3 ripoff. The layout (and presumably the airflow) in the V1 and F1 are fine, as is the case with the very similar 250D, but the 140mm cooler height is too restrictive for me to use as my main rig. Also too big (22L for the V1, 18L for my Cerberus, 12.5L for my M1) and too blocky to fit in my Pelican as my portable rig.

Plus, after the Cerberus' build quality, it's going to be very hard to look at ordinary 0.5mm SECC steel cases in the same way


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## biffzinker (Aug 16, 2020)

Mussels said:


> thermaltake
> *vomits*


The Thermaltake Big Typoon was a decent heatsink. Don’t know about their recent stuff, since I haven’t bought anything with the Thermaltake name recently.


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## Fry178 (Aug 17, 2020)

@Mussels
never said their the best or non-plus-ultra.
so:
show me 1 or 2 more cases from "name" brands (on the market for at least 15y) that have a midi tower
with TG (not just a cut out in panel), space for 140 sized fans all around (rear/top/front/bottom,
and space for two 120 fans on the (right) side panel, and allow to remove any internal cage/mount incl psu cover.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 1, 2020)

Ol' Beastie's ride isn't over! The odometer won't be stopping at 54,000km, ladies and gents. And it's all thanks to this find:


 

It's $40, and designed to hold four PAR lights. It weighs about nothing (especially compared to the Pelican 1510) and still manages to be padded, and almost exactly as big as the M1. With the dividers removed, it evidently fits a M1 pretty well (not my photo):



The Pelican case _still_ doesn't fall within Air Canada's carry-on spec, and would limit me to British Airways, while also being a general pain-in-the-ass to carry around the airport and elsewhere whenever the ground is too rough to safely let it roll along. This bag, by contrast, is comically light and small compared to both the Pelican case and all airlines' international carry-on allowance, and might even fit beneath the seat in front. In addition, both my T60 and X60 R _barely _fit in the side pockets, but that will depend more on how much weight I feel like carrying on that day. 

Also, going to be picking one of these tomorrow, while selling my old B450I Aorus:



It's an astoundingly inexpensive board for what it offers. 6+2 x ISL99390 SPS with a heatpipe, 2 x M.2 slots, a full coverage metal backplate (!!), an 8-layer PCB (my B450 was 6-layers, pretty much bare minimum for ITX). Only stickler is Gigabyte BIOS again, but while it could be much better (Asus), it could also be that much worse (ASRock, MSI).

The only issue here is that the socket placement only allows me to use a U9S, but a flat enough fan curve adjusted up to 77C or so should be able to do the trick. I could pop in my 3700X when I'm about to leave, but that's a little bit of work and I can't do that until I leave because it's in my main PC. 

The alternative would be to set everything up now and wait for a Vermeer Ryzen 6-core. Will be absolutely plenty of power for a secondary PC, better suited than an 8-core to the U9S in thermal output, and will give me some experience in working with Ryzen 4000's cores, IMC and Infinity Fabric before I eventually come back and upgrade Austere Box to Vermeer.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 11, 2020)

It's been a little while. Can't recommend the PAR F4 bag enough; it's cheap, nice for transport, nice for storage. 

I have a 4650G Renoir APU arriving this week, as well as a Viper Steel kit coming (cheap single rank B-die, 4133CL19). Don't care much for the single rank penalty, this one isn't for gaming.

NCASE (largely empty after eliminating SATA drives, front I/O, and discrete GPUs) just waiting for its 4650G:



Gonna have a bunch of stuff I need to sell though.

GTX 1070, because the only thing it's doing with Renoir in there is blocking the airflow from reaching the CPU and RAM
4Gb E-die probably, will be sad to see it go but it is old and somehow questionably slow even at the exact same timings compared to CJR and probably won't do 3800 16-18-18 at less than 1.5V so kinda pointless for Renoir
3700X when my 5900X eventually decides to show up sometime in the coming decade kek
NH-D9L, had it for 5 years but haven't used it on anything since the U9S and C14S showed up 14 months ago


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## Valantar (Nov 16, 2020)

Hey, I didn't know you were a fellow SFF enthusiast. I've drooled over the Cerberus since it was first announced (pre-kickstarter) - sadly importing one to Norway was _way_ out of my budget range - and the M1 is also pretty high up the list of great cases. Some really nice builds here! That 4650G deserves a more fitting case though, that is complete overkill for such a tiny powerhouse  Something like a Lone L5 (sadly not currently in production) would seem to fit your tastes. A shame it needs an external power brick of course, though there might be room in the unused GPU space to fix that. Maybe a J-Hack Pure X  or one of the million SFF cases from Custom_MOD?


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## tabascosauz (Nov 16, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Hey, I didn't know you were a fellow SFF enthusiast. I've drooled over the Cerberus since it was first announced (pre-kickstarter) - sadly importing one to Norway was _way_ out of my budget range - and the M1 is also pretty high up the list of great cases. Some really nice builds here! That 4650G deserves a more fitting case though, that is complete overkill for such a tiny powerhouse  Something like a Lone L5 (sadly not currently in production) would seem to fit your tastes. A shame it needs an external power brick of course, though there might be room in the unused GPU space to fix that. Maybe a J-Hack Pure X  or one of the million SFF cases from Custom_MOD?



I used to strive for the best performance-to-size ratio like most do, but at some point I realized that having no wasted space cuts both ways and makes it absurdly frustrating to troubleshoot or work on, or even just for overclocking where I want easy access to the CMOS header. So for me, the initial enthusiasm for ever-smaller cases burned out long ago haha.

I really like those small cases as well as the Velka. Next media or office PC build I do I may consider one of them or one of those Aliexpress cases. Or the L5 if they make it again, domestic shipping ftw

Problem with those cases right now is that they don't give me the airflow I need right now for memory, and not as much CPU cooling headroom as I'd like. I either need case fans or ability to use a C14S for DIMM airflow above 1.4V, otherwise the RAM is not sustainable. As for CPU cooling, these cases only support up to a L9x65; I had the L9x65 for about a year, and was thoroughly unimpressed in relation to the D9L and U9B SE2. I guess I just don't like seeing 70-80c. The L5 comes closest to meeting those requirements with 2 80mm fans and the ability to use a L12S, but that side panel is too restrictive.

I love the Cerberus. I can still brag about it being "small", but it's big enough for me to make for easy upgrades and maintenance. Perfect for a daily driver for sure.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Nov 16, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> I used to strive for the best performance-to-size ratio like most do, but at some point I realized that having no wasted space cuts both ways and makes it absurdly frustrating to troubleshoot or work on, or even just for overclocking where I want easy access to the CMOS header. So for me, the initial enthusiasm for ever-smaller cases burned out long ago haha.



I agree with statement small densely pack small form factor gets frustrating the smaller it gets and like you I value my sanity at the end of day rather than going smaller. For me ease of maintainance is my number 1 feature vs smaller size now. It can be a bit bigger if it less frustrating. Ncase M1 aged well for it designed in this regard with its screwless removable all panels.

I guesd there is not much option if you wanna go big cooler on an itx beside the Ncase M1 or the things like Raijintek Metis a frustrating case btw.  Water cooling is needed for smaller sizes which is not my thing.

I always wanted a Ceberus case that why I got a Scythe Fuma 1 the largest tower possible for it. Well the Ceberus is just out my reach haha. Put 3 noctua fans on it and it'll shine as good if not better than a d15.


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## Valantar (Nov 17, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> I used to strive for the best performance-to-size ratio like most do, but at some point I realized that having no wasted space cuts both ways and makes it absurdly frustrating to troubleshoot or work on, or even just for overclocking where I want easy access to the CMOS header. So for me, the initial enthusiasm for ever-smaller cases burned out long ago haha.
> 
> I really like those small cases as well as the Velka. Next media or office PC build I do I may consider one of them or one of those Aliexpress cases. Or the L5 if they make it again, domestic shipping ftw
> 
> ...


I completely agree that there's a clear point of diminishing returns in terms of effort vs. compactness. Of course that's also down to case design and build choices as much as the case size - my water cooled H200i build is quite terrible to work on, and that's a "not really SFF" 26l case. I guess I've kind of disqualified myself from arguing for ease of use when I've gone with a custom water loop, though to my defense I'm planning to add QDCs in between all major components - the inability to easily disassemble the build is definitely bugging me. Still, I see those "let's cram as much power as we can into a tiny case" build more as an exercise in seeing what's possible than anything actually practical - impressive, but only feasible as a secondary PC. Which was definitely what I was aiming for back when I crammed an RX 570 ITX into an old Optiplex 990 SFF  I mean, I wanted to see if I could build a capable, somewhat portable SFF gaming PC for as cheap as possible, but over time it just morphed into a "I wonder if this can actually be done" hobby project. I doubt I'll be doing anything like that again in the future, unless the dumpster diving DIY bug bites me again. My main reason for liking SFF is just annoyance at the sheer size of conventional cases and how much space they take up - the difference even moving from my old Define R4 to an NZXT H200i was massive, and I could finally get the PC off the floor, keeping it a lot cleaner over time.

Now, I am planning to move to a smaller case in the next year or so, but size isn't the main concern there. It's mainly to add radiator space (speaks to the inefficient layout of the H200i!) as I'd want to replace my 120mm rad with a second 240 or a 280. For now I'm considering the CM NR200 due to the price, though the M1 or Dan C4 are also extremely attractive (and the NR200 reportedly has some QC issues). The Cerberus is still on my wish list, but the lack of official 2xdual rad support makes me a bit wary - I've seen plenty of dual 240 or 240+280 builds in Cerberuses, but I'll need to be able to bring my current EK 240 PE with me, which makes figuring out compatibility a hassle. I'd also like improved airflow over the H200i, which is too closed off for its own good, and a more space efficient layout would be a nice added benefit, even if I don't necessarily feel a need for a smaller case in and of itself.

For your APU build, have you looked at the Lazer3D HT5? It can fit an NH-L12s or Big Shuriken 3, so RAM cooling shouldn't be an issue. The top panel vent is a bit small for those coolers, but Kevin over at Lazer3D can whip up a different top panel for you for cheap (I'm in the process of ordering the second one for mine ). I don't know how well an acrylic case like that would work for travel, but at least it feels very sturdy. Oh, and it's _gorgeous_. And it's easy to fit an internal PSU setup in it - it has built-in mounts for HDPlex PSUs, but I don't generally like 19VDC systems, so I went with a MeanWell RPS-200-12C AC-12VDC unit (200W with 10cfm forced air, 150W passive) and a G-Unique ArchDaemon pico-style DC-ATX converter. It's actually a bit overkill for my 4650G (I've never seen it exceed 110W at the wall, though I haven't run any combined CPU+GPU torture loads), though that just means I could add a low profile dGPU if I wanted to at some point. If you're comfortable doing your own wiring, a setup like that can't be beat for compactness, and it's still easy to work with.


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## tabascosauz (Dec 8, 2020)

So, I guess we finally found out where the limit of this 4650G's Infinity Fabric lies. 4400 runs 1:1, 4466 automatically steps down to 2:1. 4466 still has good R/W bandwidth, but the unsynced IF is obvious.

Well, it's already way past what I'm expecting from a six-core. Everything up to DDR4-4400 was 1:1 and done with just 1.2V VSOC. No crazy overvolted SOC or undervolted/underclocked cores as the leakers showed in the 4750G leaks way back before they released.

 

Gonna spend the next few days to see if I can break 70GB/s R/W on higher 2:1 speeds.


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## tabascosauz (Jan 12, 2021)

So the 4650G has kinda crappy cores, can't get AVX workloads stable at 4.3GHz 1.35V. But leaving it on Auto it boosts like a champ on every core up to 4.3GHz in single threaded workloads, so I'm not complaining; the spec is *supposed* to be up to 4.2GHz like the 3600.

Hunting all the bandwidth I can get because my FPS in Genshin on the 4650G literally scales with memory speed, so I decided on 4200 17-18-18 instead of 4000 16-16-16. The game won't stop crashing on 140ns, but 145ns is just fine (300 or so tRFC @ 4200).



As for the main rig, been making some upgrades with a new audio interface, a new mic, a new desk, some new lighting.









My 3700X seems to have some kind of terminal illness. Couldn't run 3733 anymore all of a sudden, nearly bricked itself. Then at 3600, couldn't even do 250ns tRFC anymore, nearly bricked itself. Then at 260ns tRFC, couldn't help spitting WHEA interconnect errors with Cstates on for data fabric. At goddamn 3600. Should probably take it out back and give it some mercy like Old Yeller.

Since the 5900X is nowhere in sight 9 weeks after preordering it, I'm tempted to cancel it and get a Z590 board when they come out. When the new Rocket Lake chips hit the shelves, then I could grab one and complete my move back into Intel by then selling my 3700X and TUF board. Specifically, it's this board that has my attention:



I don't even care that its heatsinks are worse than the similar Z590I Ultra, this board is absolutely gorgeous and pairs perfectly with my Cerberus. But if the 5900X decides to show up in time, a switch back to Intel may yet be averted.

Don't care much for this 3700X. I love my 4650G, but this 3700X is a turd. Core 0 is so bad it belongs in a 3600, chip barely does 4.1GHz @ 1.25V, still doesn't go over 4.325GHz ST in any meaningful way (discrete and snapshot clocks), can't run 1866MHz IF stably, can't even run 1800MHz IF without Cstates off...

Especially having experienced the amazing stuff that Ryzen (Renoir) can do when it's not glued together.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 13, 2021)

Is your main rig now the 4650G? How is the gpu performance? Would be great for a compact NAS.


Your photography of your items makes them looks so nice and neat! You sure have some high memory clock standards for your rig, I am here just with my Jedec Ram lmao just satisfied if it just works. The upcoming intel cpus I think look rather promising if your focus is not heavily threaded programmes also can't believe I am saying this but Intel now is better budget option than AMD plus their Cpus are always in stock. It would be cute having an itx board in an MATX ceberus ahha.


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## tabascosauz (Jan 13, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> Is your main rig now the 4650G? How is the gpu performance? Would be great for a compact NAS.
> 
> 
> Your photography of your items makes them looks so nice and neat! You sure have some high memory clock standards for your rig, I am here just with my Jedec Ram lmao just satisfied if it just works. The upcoming intel cpus I think look rather promising if your focus is not heavily threaded programmes also can't believe I am saying this but Intel now is better budget option than AMD plus their Cpus are always in stock. It would be cute having an itx board in an MATX ceberus ahha.



It's not my main rig - with just a 256GB PM981 I couldn't dream of fitting 1/10 of my stuff on there haha.

You are much better off with JEDEC RAM than I would be since you have a dGPU lol. I can play pretty smoothly @ 60fps with the Vega 7 at 4200; at 2133 I was averaging about 20 fps haha. The entire APU is so constrained for power when gaming that the best way to boost performance is with fast B-die.

How's the 3900 RMA btw?

I just use it as my media PC and on the go if it's a holiday I'm spending with my parents. Works great for casual games like Ori, Setsuna and Genshin. I'll probably keep it the way it is until the Lone Industries decides to make the L5 again, might look to put it in that case.

Keeping an eye on how Intel prices the 11700K. Would have to relearn most of DDR4 timings again though. Comet Lake IMC seems to be less forgiving than the K17.6 UMC, but i hear the firmware is better at not being a flaming turd and recovering from bad mem settings


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## tabascosauz (Jan 22, 2021)

@Valantar I've actually been thinking about that HT5 suggestion. Since the L5 won't be back anytime soon and the Velka 3RL is B-stock and doesn't provide the airflow I need for my B-die, the HT5 has been looking like a decent alternative.

Only problems are that it's not cheap especially to ship here, and I have no idea about the L12S' compatibility with my board and RAM in its various orientations.

I would have appreciated a lower price tag but there aren't really other options. And I can actually buy one (well, place an order and wait for it to be made).

E: well, went ahead and bought a HT5 and a Blackridge cooler. Guess it's time to peel those shitty heatspreaders off the Viper Steels - they're not going to fit otherwise. Probably will run it with the SF600 and open top until I can figure out whether I want a brick in the case (HDPlex's 200W combo) or a brick outside the case (Streacom 160W).


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## Valantar (Jan 23, 2021)

I hope you like it, and that shipping doesn't take too long! In my experience Kevin at Lazer3D is incredibly helpful and responsive (including whipping up a couple of custom top panels for me for quite affordable prices!), but sadly he isn't in control of the shipping companies or customs  My second top panel (with added ventilation for semi-passive cooling + a 140mm fan mount) is currently in covid19-christmas-brexit shipping limbo, in the process of being handed off between various carriers somewhere in Europe. Hopefully it will get here at some point  You being in Canada might actually make shipping smoother than for me here in Sweden, considering the circumstances!

Btw, if you went for one of the wood fronted versions, I'd recommend oiling the wood relatively soon. My HT5 spent a year in storage before I got around to building, and by that time the wood had warped slightly. Not enough to be an issue beyond needing to apply some force when installing it, and not anything that's visible unless you're really close and actively looking for it, but worth looking out for. Some bog-standard benchtop/cutting board mineral oil, or whatever else wood finishing oil (linseed oil, whatever) should work fine. Besides, oiling the wood makes it look better too!

As for power, here's another alternative for you: user TheHack over at sff.network has a business making cases and power supply setups, and makes a custom-designed 12VDC-ATX converter board bundled with the excellent MeanWell RPS-200-12C. I used a different DC-ATX board (from another user on the same forums, GuryHwa/G-Unique), and I'd really recommend that type of setup. It's a bit cheaper than HDPlex, smaller, higher efficiency (the RPS-200-12C delivers >90% efficiency from 20% load and up on 115V, and MW's detailed testing reports are pure gold for SFF builders), the DC-ATX boards are smaller and run cooler thanks to not needing to convert 19V to 12V, and fits nicely in the HT5. I mounted mine to the right/top of the motherboard, where it fit perfectly, but it should fit fine next to the PCIe slot if that suits you better. I did have to drill two new holes in the PSU's frame and screw it in with some m3 screws and nuts (screws fit through the accessory panel mounting slots in the motherboard tray), but it was a very small, easy and safe mod. You could always just stick it down with double sided tape if you want to.

Oh, and even if you already ordered a Blackridge, another option is the ID-Cooling IS60k (or the lower profile IS-47k, which is the same cooler just with one less fan). There's one drawback with these though: the included mounting hardware has poor pressure, and users have reported much better thermals when mounting it using a Noctua L9i-to-AM4 adapter kit, though that's a bit of a hassle. ID-cooling is reportedly adding a backplate to a new revision of the cooler, but that's not due to arrive for a while still. But if the BR doesn't work for you, at least that's another option to try


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## tabascosauz (Jan 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I hope you like it, and that shipping doesn't take too long! In my experience Kevin at Lazer3D is incredibly helpful and responsive (including whipping up a couple of custom top panels for me for quite affordable prices!), but sadly he isn't in control of the shipping companies or customs  My second top panel (with added ventilation for semi-passive cooling + a 140mm fan mount) is currently in covid19-christmas-brexit shipping limbo, in the process of being handed off between various carriers somewhere in Europe. Hopefully it will get here at some point  You being in Canada might actually make shipping smoother than for me here in Sweden, considering the circumstances!
> 
> Btw, if you went for one of the wood fronted versions, I'd recommend oiling the wood relatively soon. My HT5 spent a year in storage before I got around to building, and by that time the wood had warped slightly. Not enough to be an issue beyond needing to apply some force when installing it, and not anything that's visible unless you're really close and actively looking for it, but worth looking out for. Some bog-standard benchtop/cutting board mineral oil, or whatever else wood finishing oil (linseed oil, whatever) should work fine. Besides, oiling the wood makes it look better too!
> 
> ...



I got the sole remaining white/oak one on OCUK so hopefully on Monday I'll see a ship notification. Think they ship via DHL so no Royal Mail/Canada Post BS. Developed something of a penchant for white-coloured cases recently    I can definitely put it up next to the Cerberus for a nice little family photo

This whole oiling thing is new to me. Might have to ask some woodworking friends as to the oil and methods to use. Thanks for the heads up. I think I will probably move it in soon after I get it, just not with a proper PSU yet.

As for the PSU, really not sure yet. I do like not having a brick, but I wouldn't mind having to carry one around and wouldn't mind the extra space in the case. Problem is the only external brick setup I can actually get my hands on - the Streacom - costs me somewhere between 50% and 100%+ the value of the PSU to ship.

Leaning towards the HDPlex as they have the 200W in stock, but do I have to mount the  with double sided tape? I could have sworn there were mounting holes for the HDPlex, or was that for the 400W HiFi? In any event, the 400W is too expensive and too overkill for me.

It doesn't look like the Meanwell combo is available on the Jhack website.

Also, the HDPlex and Black Ridge are going to be a tight fit together.


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## Valantar (Jan 24, 2021)

There are mounting holes (with threaded inserts) for some HDPlex unit in one of the side panels, though I'm not sure which - I've never really considered it. One external brick option worth considering for a quick, cheap solution is getting one of those Dell 12V 220W DA-2 bricks (from uSFF Optiplex workstations) used off Ebay - they're big, but they're reliable and deliver plenty of power for a build like this, and will work with any 12V DC-ATX board (PicoPSU, J-Hack, G-Unique, etc.). I got one for ... something like €15 including shipping. So even as a temporary solution that's worth looking into, though it would lock you out of the (19V) HDPlex ecosystem.

I get where you're coming from with considering a brick. Essentially this case allows for any two out of four options: 2x80 mm fans, HDD/SSD bracket, internal power brick, or HHHL GPU. I have a 140mm fan in the top set as exhaust, so I don't see the need for any side fans, but I can see their utility with a different layout. I also only need an m.2 for storage in the HT5. I still have room for a dGPU should I want it though! But if you ever wanted for example 80mm fans and a dGPU, a brick would be a requirement.

Asking someone experienced in woodworking about oiling the wood panel is probably a good idea - especially the white/oak one I'd expect you don't want the oil to tint it darker, so doing some research is likely a good idea. One suggestion: there is this white pigmented furniture finishing oil (AFAIK some sort of mineral oil+a white pigment) that's used for a lot of oak products (my dining room table is white tinted oak, I got a care set alongside it including a bottle of said oil), and the look it creates is absolutely beautiful. It makes the wood a kind of grey-ish pale wood tone that works really, really well. I don't know if oil like that will work well on the panels used for this case (or if it would be recommended to use some other finish first), but it would probably match the white case very well. If not, then plain mineral oil is color neutral, cheap and widely available (and non-toxic, as it's used on cutting boards and stuff), but I have little doubt there are things out there that can give better protection or a nicer finish.


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## tabascosauz (Jan 26, 2021)

Valantar said:


> There are mounting holes (with threaded inserts) for some HDPlex unit in one of the side panels, though I'm not sure which - I've never really considered it. One external brick option worth considering for a quick, cheap solution is getting one of those Dell 12V 220W DA-2 bricks (from uSFF Optiplex workstations) used off Ebay - they're big, but they're reliable and deliver plenty of power for a build like this, and will work with any 12V DC-ATX board (PicoPSU, J-Hack, G-Unique, etc.). I got one for ... something like €15 including shipping. So even as a temporary solution that's worth looking into, though it would lock you out of the (19V) HDPlex ecosystem.
> 
> I get where you're coming from with considering a brick. Essentially this case allows for any two out of four options: 2x80 mm fans, HDD/SSD bracket, internal power brick, or HHHL GPU. I have a 140mm fan in the top set as exhaust, so I don't see the need for any side fans, but I can see their utility with a different layout. I also only need an m.2 for storage in the HT5. I still have room for a dGPU should I want it though! But if you ever wanted for example 80mm fans and a dGPU, a brick would be a requirement.
> 
> Asking someone experienced in woodworking about oiling the wood panel is probably a good idea - especially the white/oak one I'd expect you don't want the oil to tint it darker, so doing some research is likely a good idea. One suggestion: there is this white pigmented furniture finishing oil (AFAIK some sort of mineral oil+a white pigment) that's used for a lot of oak products (my dining room table is white tinted oak, I got a care set alongside it including a bottle of said oil), and the look it creates is absolutely beautiful. It makes the wood a kind of grey-ish pale wood tone that works really, really well. I don't know if oil like that will work well on the panels used for this case (or if it would be recommended to use some other finish first), but it would probably match the white case very well. If not, then plain mineral oil is color neutral, cheap and widely available (and non-toxic, as it's used on cutting boards and stuff), but I have little doubt there are things out there that can give better protection or a nicer finish.



I'm thinking 2 x 80mm fans and a A12x15 on the Blackridge will probably be sufficient for airflow. I've also only got one NVMe drive. 

OCUK didn't ship my case yet today, but new surprise - my board is [partially] dead! Hooray. The board lost the A1 DIMM slot permanently; I thought I had done something but I swapped in the old dinosaur E-die kit to confirm that A1 is indeed dead as a doornail. RMA time.

A reminder to myself as any why I choose to fool around with OC on my HTPC instead of my main PC.


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## Valantar (Jan 26, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I'm thinking 2 x 80mm fans and a A12x15 on the Blackridge will probably be sufficient for airflow. I've also only got one NVMe drive.
> 
> OCUK didn't ship my case yet today, but new surprise - my board is [partially] dead! Hooray. The board lost the A1 DIMM slot permanently; I thought I had done something but I swapped in the old dinosaur E-die kit to confirm that A1 is indeed dead as a doornail. RMA time.
> 
> A reminder to myself as any why I choose to fool around with OC on my HTPC instead of my main PC.


Wow, that sucks. Hope it's the board and not the IMC on the APU, by the way.


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## tabascosauz (Jan 26, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Wow, that sucks. Hope it's the board and not the IMC on the APU, by the way.



Never thought I'd be rooting for a board being dead  a long wait for an RMA is better than $350 right down the toilet

The stick in the A1 channel never shows, which means half the capacity, but it also causes Zentimings to start spazzing and report that it can't read certain parameters. When I open it (always at JEDEC, can only post at JEDEC now) the capacity field is simply blank, and so are the model names of the sticks - the entire dropdown is blank.

The thought did cross my mind, though it seems a bit less likely than the board (or am I just in denial?). The chip hasn't been out of that socket since I got it. Because a dead APU would likely be the straw that breaks my [tragic] 2-year fling with AMD. No lie - if it's the 4650G, I'd most likely switch both to Intel. One terrible chip is already a lot to deal with.


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## Valantar (Jan 26, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Never thought I'd be rooting for a board being dead  a long wait for an RMA is better than $350 right down the toilet
> 
> The stick in the A1 channel never shows, which means half the capacity, but it also causes Zentimings to start spazzing and report that it can't read certain parameters. When I open it (always at JEDEC, can only post at JEDEC now) the capacity field is simply blank, and so are the model names of the sticks - the entire dropdown is blank.
> 
> The thought did cross my mind, though it seems a bit less likely than the board (or am I just in denial?). The chip hasn't been out of that socket since I got it. Because a dead APU would likely be the straw that breaks my [tragic] 2-year fling with AMD. No lie - if it's the 4650G, I'd most likely switch both to Intel. One terrible chip is already a lot to deal with.


Yeah, hopefully it's something on the board. That's the downside of warrantyless grey-market APUs. I would say the likelihood depends on how hard you've been pushing the SoC voltage - unless that's been running very high I can't imagine high clocks alone damaging anything. But who knows? Fingers crossed that it's just the board.


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## tabascosauz (Jan 26, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Yeah, hopefully it's something on the board. That's the downside of warrantyless grey-market APUs. I would say the likelihood depends on how hard you've been pushing the SoC voltage - unless that's been running very high I can't imagine high clocks alone damaging anything. But who knows? Fingers crossed that it's just the board.



Surprisingly the board decided to un-fuck itself after I used my datavac to clean out the DIMM slots. 

I got suspicious after Thaiphoon fully read and recognized both the E-die and B-die kits when A1 "wasn't working". Was taking the heatspreaders off the Viper Steels earlier today so I guess a speck of dust must have gotten in there.

I usually run VSOC about 1.15V or so. Gone up to 1.2V once or twice when benching 4400 but that's about it.


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## Valantar (Jan 26, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Surprisingly the board decided to un-fuck itself after I used my datavac to clean out the DIMM slots.
> 
> I got suspicious after Thaiphoon fully read and recognized both the E-die and B-die kits when A1 "wasn't working". Was taking the heatspreaders off the Viper Steels earlier today so I guess a speck of dust must have gotten in there.
> 
> I usually run VSOC about 1.15V or so. Gone up to 1.2V once or twice when benching 4400 but that's about it.


Wow, that must be a relief! AFAIK VSOC at 1.15 should be entirely safe for 24/7 operation, so it would be quite worrying if that had killed anything.


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## tabascosauz (Feb 9, 2021)

I realized that the L12S isn't going to work, because in the north-south configuration it interferes with the installation of the C14 plug socket, and in the west-east configuration it will interfere with the HDPlex 200W DC-ATX. L9x65 it is, then. Not my first choice, but it'll have to do. Getting some crisp photos while I wait:






--

Also, on the topic of this - Noctua changed coldplate quality, or just a one-off? | TechPowerUp Forums - Noctua got back to me and had this to say:



At least it doesn't [appear to] affect thermals, I guess...?


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## tabascosauz (Feb 21, 2021)

Downsizing time.






The HT5 was pleasant to build in. The ~5mm acrylic is thicker and more substantial than I was expecting, and fits together reasonably well. Some squeezing required when the last (transparent side panel) is going in, but it generally holds its structure well.

I was sad that the L12S didn't work out due to clearance, but aside from noise there's not much of a difference compared to the L9x65.
SSD suffers a little since it's gone from direct airflow by 2 x A12x25s in the NCASE, to no direct airflow whatsoever.
I did have my first run-in with B-die temperature sensitivity causing crashing and iGPU artifacting, so I now run the NF-A8s at roughly 70% fan speed - they are that quiet. Frankly at 80x25mm thick I feel like they push more air than the 92x14mm on the L9x65.
The HDPlex 200W AC-DC and 200W DC-ATX are silent. I used the extra strength 3M double-sided tape for the AC-DC brick and it definitely does not move.






There is a frosted C-shaped panel sandwiched between the case and the side panel to (kinda) hide cabling and fans. I would rather do without it, but it also acts as a spacer to keep the fan mount panel from moving around.






It's a bit of a shame that there are only 4 bumpons bundled with the case, so you can only choose 1 orientation. I have a crap ton of large bumpons from keyboard building, so I popped a few on the back (it's always going to be laying flat when I'm working on something inside).


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## tabascosauz (Mar 2, 2021)

Can't have all the attention on the little wooden/acrylic computer - it's not the one that runs my life. Not too much has changed with the big one. Well, aside from finally getting my 5900X and being able to sell the 3700X. Took the opportunity to clean it out and tidy it up a lil.

Something's for sure: this thing is damn fast. Fast, smooth, consistent, [relatively, reasonably] cool-running. I've changed nothing else, but the 5900X has already massively improved framerate consistency in all my games. And who said Ryzen 5000 wouldn't be a worthwhile upgrade from Ryzen 3000 without a RTX3080? 
(in all fairness, the difference was more because my 3700X was an abominable piece of shit. So maybe if you're such a lucky SOB to end up with a golden 3600 it wouldn't be a worthwhile upgrade for you, but evidently luck is not my calling card)

4.8-4.9GHz ST all day long. 4.1-4.55GHz MT depending on the type of workload. 72C in all benchmarks and games, with the exception of COD:MW where it gets up to 85C for reasons I still can't explain.



Leaving this one as is, though. Stock boosting, PBO off, stock voltage, stock CLDOs, and my most conservative 3600 profile. I learned my lesson not to fuck with Ryzen - it always seems to come back to bite me in the ass. It's AMD's way of telling me that if I wanted to do real CPU overclocking, there's always the Blue team on the other side of that fence.

And lastly a look at the two of them side-by-side. Not much of a height difference, but obviously the 370% difference in volume has to come from some dimension.


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## freeagent (Mar 2, 2021)

I really like how small they are! I would have to go with the "big" one if given the choice.. but that board on the little guy is friken sweet..


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Mar 6, 2021)

What is the volume of that tiny HT5 baby computer vs the ceberus? Make me wanna finish up my little case build but I am broke... How you got a 5900x? These things are so rare now! The current global chip shortage is not helping it too.

I know I should complain with my workstation laptop that is about you ceberus performance but those are some nice neat tidy cabled Pc.


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## tabascosauz (Mar 6, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> What is the volume of that tiny HT5 baby computer vs the ceberus? Make me wanna finish up my little case build but I am broke... How you got a 5900x? These things are so rare now! The current global chip shortage is not helping it too.
> 
> I know I should complain with my workstation laptop that is about you ceberus performance but those are some nice neat tidy cabled Pc.



I don't mind, always happy to hear how you're doing 

HT5: 5.3L
Cerberus: 18L or 19L depending on who you ask

Do you actually game much these days? If not, assuming AMD decides to properly release Cezanne for desktop maybe you could build a tiny PC with one, no GPU needed.

Yeah the 5900X is a unicorn, it's the hardest SKU to find here. No wonder, since the only one that's not priced out of its frickin mind. I waited patiently in the preorder queue from about Nov 9 to Feb 18.

But it's fast, silicon quality is good, it's completely stable unlike the 3700X, and I didn't pay scalpers.

You're really not missing out on too much MT perf with the 3900, aside from the performance you lose going down to a 88W PPT. AMD is running the 5900X and 5950X more conservatively out of the box, so there are big ST gains but without PBO I've not been able to actually exceed 135W PPT even in heavy benchmarks, even though PPT is still 142W limit and temps are low. Stock MT isn't much faster than 3900X.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Mar 10, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I don't mind, always happy to hear how you're doing



I guess I am fine *insert meme with dog house on fire*. Haha things are under control still.

I don't game these days, not in the mood also my old games is in my old windows install that I never brought over. I could make do with a less powerful gpu if there is video acceleration present as I consume 4k60 content alot and the RTX 2070 laptop do help it immensely without taking up the cpu.

That HT5 is almost 4 times small than the ceberus! Old bestie must be jealous you are playing with the new young girl now xD.

I guess there is no reason for me to upgrade then, I just thought in thermally constraint environment my 5900x would be better.

Nowadays I think PC building is dying hobby with the current prices I compared prices is really insane not just gpu and cpu. Memory prices too the same, the 64GB sodimm in my laptop now cost more than when I got it last year. I thought of just putting my laptop home to mine crypto and build up the itx for portable use. I have the ZS-A4DC a 3.9 litre case for so long now. There are literally no parts. Waiting for the Cezanne hopefully with good price. Judging by history it maybe an OEM only part again. I am frankly hoping for a low profile gpu that could succeed the 1650 lp which again no stock everywhere here too. I wish there is a Rtx 3050 LP to succeed that, might be putting my hopes up too high.


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## tabascosauz (Mar 10, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I don't game these days, not in the mood also my old games is in my old windows install that I never brought over. I could make do with a less powerful gpu if there is video acceleration present as I consume 4k60 content alot and the RTX 2070 laptop do help it immensely without taking up the cpu.
> 
> That HT5 is almost 4 times small than the ceberus! Old bestie must be jealous you are playing with the new young girl now xD.



The HT5 is just hooked up to the TV for TV shows and movies, so pretty much all hardware requirements are very light. When I need to leave the house with the ability to hook up to a TV at someone else's place, I throw it in a bag and go.

All the heavy lifting is still done by the one in the Cerberus.



MIRTAZAPINE said:


> Nowadays I think PC building is dying hobby with the current prices I compared prices is really insane not just gpu and cpu. I have the ZS-A4DC a 3.9 litre case for so long now. There are literally no parts. Waiting for the Cezanne hopefully with good price. Judging by history it maybe an OEM only part again. I am frankly hoping for a low profile gpu that could succeed the 1650 lp which again no stock everywhere here too. I wish there is a Rtx 3050 LP to succeed that, might be putting my hopes up too high.



What the HECK that's an awesome case. 4L for a full-height GPU?? I swear there are too many cool little SFF cases on Taobao for me to ever keep track of. The flipped orientation of the GPU is a little weird, but hey, whatever works to get it to 4L. Given you already have a 2070 in the laptop, you could put just about anything in that tiny case. Maybe Xe will finally make a 11400 competitive with a 4650G.

I agree on the parts market. Things are looking worse by the day - looked on ca.pcpartpicker today and the only GPUs you can get are GT 1030s and low end Quadros/Radeon Pro. Damn miners and scalpers keep this up and those new Macs are only going to continue taking over at an accelerated pace.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Mar 10, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> The HT5 is just hooked up to the TV for TV shows and movies, so pretty much all hardware requirements are very light. When I need to leave the house with the ability to hook up to a TV at someone else's place, I throw it in a bag and go.
> 
> All the heavy lifting is still done by the one in the Cerberus.



What do you use to watch tv show? Netflix? That sounds like a tv box on steroids. Ahh so all of bestie is in Cerberus now for the heavy lift?




tabascosauz said:


> What the HECK that's an awesome case. 4L for a full-height GPU?? I swear there are too many cool little SFF cases on Taobao for me to ever keep track of. The flipped orientation of the GPU is a little weird, but hey, whatever works to get it to 4L. Given you already have a 2070 in the laptop, you could put just about anything in that tiny case. Maybe Xe will finally make a 11400 competitive with a 4650G.
> 
> I agree on the parts market. Things are looking worse by the day - looked on ca.pcpartpicker today and the only GPUs you can get are GT 1030s and low end Quadros/Radeon Pro. Damn miners and scalpers keep this up and those new Macs are only going to continue taking over at an accelerated pace.



Yes! 4L with a full height gpu but it have to be 18cm long max but you have to use an external psu for that. Using a low profile gpu you could be fit a flex psu inside. Theoretically I can fit a full height gpu if I were to get get a HDplex AC-DC. I love the thickness for this case, its tiny but the aluminium is milled 2.5-3mm thick even thicker than an Ncase M1 panels! It have zero flex at all. The ZS-A4DC is the first model with the hexagon mesh rather than the round one for the new ones, I think it look better than the new. It took me 2 months to get this Taobao case pre-covid, now I don't even know. Remember my eyerobo pc case a few years back, this Zs-a4dc is like a tiny baby that came from it. Its 2 times smaller in all dimensions from 40cmx40cmx17cm to 21cmx20cmx10cm. I just wanna make a robot face plate for it haha, to make a baby robot. 

Same here! Here in local Singapore, there is this PC mall call Sim Lim square, I went each shop no gpu except GT1030, GT710(worse than onboard) and Gtx 1050 left. If I don't see anything on shelves pretty much its nothing.  Its frankly cheaper now to buy a prebuilt throw the rest of the parts and take the gpu than it is to buy the gpu alone. Lmao an RTX 3060ti cost more than a full intel prebuilt with Rtx 3070. I excited about the Xe GPU. Need something for the low to mid end space!


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## tabascosauz (Mar 10, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> Yes! 4L with a full height gpu but it have to be 18cm long max but you have to use an external psu for that. Using a low profile gpu you could be fit a flex psu inside. Theoretically I can fit a full height gpu if I were to get get a HDplex AC-DC. I love the thickness for this case, its tiny but the aluminium is milled 2.5-3mm thick even thicker than an Ncase M1 panels! It have zero flex at all. The ZS-A4DC is the first model with the hexagon mesh rather than the round one for the new ones, I think it look better than the new. It took me 2 months to get this Taobao case pre-covid, now I don't even know. Remember my eyerobo pc case a few years back, this Zs-a4dc is like a tiny baby that came from it. Its 2 times smaller in all dimensions from 40cmx40cmx17cm to 21cmx20cmx10cm. I just wanna make a robot face plate for it haha, to make a baby robot.
> 
> Same here! Here in local Singapore, there is this PC mall call Sim Lim square, I went each shop no gpu except GT1030, GT710(worse than onboard) and Gtx 1050 left. If I don't see anything on shelves pretty much its nothing.  Its frankly cheaper now to buy a prebuilt throw the rest of the parts and take the gpu than it is to buy the gpu alone. Lmao an RTX 3060ti cost more than a full intel prebuilt with Rtx 3070. I excited about the Xe GPU. Need something for the low to mid end space!



Didn't you have an external brick for a G-UNIQUE though? Or am I misremembering

If HDPlex says it's in stock, it really is in stock. Was an easy and painless experience buying from their USA branch. Well made, well packaged, shipped immediately.

Dang, 2.5-3mm is like Ghost S1 territory. That's awesome, it doesn't get thicker than that. DAN-A4 is 1.5mm, M1 is 1.5mm, Cerberus is 2mm, Caselabs was 3mm. I think you can still use the HDPlex 200W DC-ATX, just don't pair it with the 200W AC-DC (grey brick inside my HT5), and use a very chunky 19V external brick lol. Perhaps another one like the one you use on your big laptop, as long as it's 19V.

I still remember the eyerobo, that case really had character  I hope you kept it

GPU market is same here. Only chance is to buy a prebuilt. Which works really well if someone in your family needs an office PC  

imma ask my sg friend where sim lim square is and tell her to hang out there for a day lol


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Mar 13, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Didn't you have an external brick for a G-UNIQUE though? Or am I misremembering
> 
> If HDPlex says it's in stock, it really is in stock. Was an easy and painless experience buying from their USA branch. Well made, well packaged, shipped immediately.
> 
> ...




Yes its the G-unique 500w brick. I was curious to see how it work with the case the pico psu 8-pin connector is a tight fit to the case. I had to bend the clips of the connecting wire to plug it in, now it kinda loose than before  . Look like I don't think this is a good idea to plug in and out often as it does take a good force to plug it in. Would be better if it is a regular barrel plug though or an xt60 connector. I also realised it take alot of planning for assemble in this case with its many hex screw, lol just using my imagination and putting it back I am feeling the frustration haha.

Don't mean to hijack this thread but the case picture for it metal thickness. Taobao cases don't come perfect, mine came with a couple of scratches. If not for the case thick 3mm skin it would probably came in pretty bent. Popular cheap taobao cases like the K39 which is a Velka 3 equivalent often come in bent as their pretty much thin cans and shipping boxes took many abuse. For $40 for a k39 it is not so bad for its thin metal.









Ahh the eyerobo I love the character so friendly! It is sad that GMC the case company in korea close down. I love their outrageous take to cases like bulldozer and a hifi radio. Yes I still kept it! Side panel a bit bent and the front face is abit yellowed. I would probably use it for my windows xp/98se build as it still got that cd drive bay at it mouth xD.  I would love to make a modern take of the robot face with my zs-a4dc or another new case.

I decided to buy the deskmini x300 instead I just ordered it. X_X It was the last one in stock, its an apu only barebone kit, now just need an Apu. I was too late in picking up a 3000g apu their sold out on amazon, thought it might hold me out until cezanne. I am now left with the choice of 4650g or 4750g on aliexpress? Any suggestions?

You would spent the hold day in Sim Lim square IT mall lol. Frankly I always buy my stuff from newegg or amazon as online is cheaper. Since now due to covid and price increase I went there to get my stuff as prices cheaper at the mall now and with local warranty.  Sim Lim have quite a variety of stuff from cameras, smartphone, networking stuff, custom speaker system, the common deskstop stuff, laptops and accessories. Pretty much all tech stuff there, only somethings I find price rather high unless you know which shops to go to and you got a good relationship with them.


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## Chrispy_ (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm just replying to this thread as a lazy way to sub. Not sure how I missed this last year, but it's all good stuff relevant to my interests.

I've long stopped using them now but did you spray your TJ08-E, or is that a newer revision that just looks classier and higher-quality than the dozens I've built? I always considered it a good case but lacking in the paint-finish and manufacturing tolerances department.


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## tabascosauz (Mar 13, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> Yes its the G-unique 500w brick. I was curious to see how it work with the case the pico psu 8-pin connector is a tight fit to the case. I had to bend the clips of the connecting wire to plug it in, now it kinda loose than before  . Look like I don't think this is a good idea to plug in and out often as it does take a good force to plug it in. Would be better if it is a regular barrel plug though or an xt60 connector. I also realised it take alot of planning for assemble in this case with its many hex screw, lol just using my imagination and putting it back I am feeling the frustration haha.
> 
> Don't mean to hijack this thread but the case picture for it metal thickness. Taobao cases don't come perfect, mine came with a couple of scratches. If not for the case thick 3mm skin it would probably came in pretty bent. Popular cheap taobao cases like the K39 which is a Velka 3 equivalent often come in bent as their pretty much thin cans and shipping boxes took many abuse. For $40 for a k39 it is not so bad for its thin metal.
> 
> ...



I'm surprised it's not a 7.4mm barrel connector on the external brick? Even the 200W HDPlex has (albeit their special easy to connect version) the 7.4mm x 5mm barrel in the box for use with external bricks.

That case looks friggin amazing, it would have made my shortlist if I had known about it and if it had maybe a bit more CPU cooler clearance......

......which is why I can't believe you went and bought a Deskmini!   I mean yeah, I can understand the allure of the Deskmini because it's so small, but you already have such a nice case to build in! You get to choose from all sorts of A520 and B550 boards, can upgrade/replace every component, and don't have to use SO-DIMMs.

If you just want a PC for media consumption and light gaming, 4650G no doubt. 4750G is very expensive and honestly the only reason I would buy one would be if I was a competitive mem overclocker and wanted to maximize my chances of getting a top binned UMC for pushing DDR4-6000. If AMD put Vega 11 back into the 5750G it might be a better buy, but it just doesn't make sense unless you have money to burn on having "the best APU on the market". $337CAD for my 4650G, whereas 4750G is $500CAD+ for 2 more cores and a barely faster iGPU.



Chrispy_ said:


> I'm just replying to this thread as a lazy way to sub. Not sure how I missed this last year, but it's all good stuff relevant to my interests.
> 
> I've long stopped using them now but did you spray your TJ08-E, or is that a newer revision that just looks classier and higher-quality than the dozens I've built? I always considered it a good case but lacking in the paint-finish and manufacturing tolerances department.



That's the way it came to me. I think I have the TJ08T-E so not the black one? Silverstone Technoloy Micro-ATX Mini-DTX, Mini-Itx Mid Tower Computer Case with Aluminum Front Panel and Steel Body TJ08T-E-USA: Amazon.ca: Computers & Tablets

The finish on the panels are actually really good. I guess they painted the T-E differently from the ubiquitous B-E version. But yeah, I agree, I didn't end up using the TJ08 for very long. Fit and finish left a lot to be desired and there was also the issue with getting the GPU and PSU to peacefully coexist in the same space. And the alignment of the frickin 5.25" bay covers, ugh.

Not that I can go back to the TJ08 anymore lol. The Cerberus is too good. The TJ08 is still in storage though.


----------



## tabascosauz (Apr 17, 2021)

I thought I'd do some quick tests at the same memory speeds.

Stock CPU + 1900MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1621/38.7/20.4*
4.1 @ 1.3V + 1900MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1628/38.9/24.6*
4.0 @ 1.208V + 2200MHz GPU + 3600 16-16-16: *1690/40.4/26.1* (+4.2%)
4.0 @ 1.208V + 2200MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1779/42.5/27.3 *(+9.7%)
4.0 @ 1.208V + 2300MHz GPU + 4000 16-16-16: *1792/42.8/27.3* (+10.5%)
Stock CPU + 2300MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1818/43.5/27.8 *(+12.1%)
4.0 @ 1.208V + 2300MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1823/43.6/27.8* (+12.4%)
More than anything else I wanted to know more about how the power limits affect GPU performance. Unfortunately, Valley isn't really hitting the power limit. Need to test more.

The only real FPS drops I have with Genshin Impact are during adverse weather and primarily main street Mondstadt and Liyue at night-time. It appears to be the sheer number of light sources that are tanking what is usually a constant 60FPS down to about 40FPS, which doesn't seem to be a solvable problem as iirc lighting ties heavily to ROPs, which iGPU Vega has always been short of.

OCing the iGPU sucks. Latest HWInfo appears to have made the VDDCR_GFX rail visible in software, which seems to be the actual Vcore for the GPU and not the previous idiotic GPU Voltage that went up to 1.4V, but it's not modifiable. There are two areas in BIOSes where iGPU clock/voltage can be changed, one of which is under AMD OC. The AMD OC menu straight up doesn't work. The only effective setting in the regular menu is changing GPU clock to the desired speed, which has the effect of both setting GPU clock and overriding VDDCR_GFX to VSOC; the VID value in the regular menu doesn't work either. Unfortunately, there's no middle ground for VDDCR_GFX - it's either stock (~0.7-0.984V), or VSOC (in this case, 1.2V). There's no in-between, and there's no way to set anything else. 

Because it's a monolithic die, temperatures and power draw also get......interesting, to say the least. The usual "GPU Temperature" sensor is pretty useless as it has no granularity to decimal point values, whereas the APU GFX sensor usually looks similar except has more precision as is expected from a CPU sensor. But both of them report wildly different max values. APU GFX falls in close to CPU SOC, whereas GPU Temperature just seems like a shittier version of Tctl/Tdie with a negative offset. According to GPU Temperature, it only ever gets to 50C in games even with 99% usage, but when the cores are running Prime95 the GPU Temperature can get up to 70C? GPU Power through VDDCR_GFX also seems irreconcilable with SMU CPU Package Power and PPT, as it draws up to 30W more than the entire CPU appears to be drawing which makes no sense.

What a gong show. At least 2300MHz works, I guess?


----------



## Valantar (Apr 18, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I thought I'd do some quick tests at the same memory speeds.
> 
> Stock CPU + 1900MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1621/38.7/20.4*
> 4.1 @ 1.3V + 1900MHz GPU + 4200 17-18-18: *1628/38.9/24.6*
> ...


This was really interesting! Seems that your experiences reflect mine in terms of the difficulty/impossibility of GPU OC and voltage adjustment - though you clearly made more sense of it that I did. I think you've got a bit better of a chip than me - from what I can remember I couldn't get my iGPU stable at 2300 or 2200 regardless of setting the SOC voltage to 1.2 (I think I might have tried something like 1.22 too, though I can't quite remember). 2100 seems like kind of a ceiling for mine, which runs fine at ... I want to say 1.15V that I've set VSOC to, though I'll have to double check that. So far it's been rock solid stable at 2100 at least. That might possibly be affected by the motherboard too - if yours is in the Aorus B550 it's no doubt better controlled than in the cheap ASRock I'm running. I spent a couple of hours playing Rocket League on the HTPC the other day, and I have to say that even at 1600x900 on a 55" TV, it delivers a really enjoyable experience at 80-110fps with FreeSync working very nicely. Definitely happy with the performance increase from the iGPU OC + 3800MHz RAM.


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## tabascosauz (Apr 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> This was really interesting! Seems that your experiences reflect mine in terms of the difficulty/impossibility of GPU OC and voltage adjustment - though you clearly made more sense of it that I did. I think you've got a bit better of a chip than me - from what I can remember I couldn't get my iGPU stable at 2300 or 2200 regardless of setting the SOC voltage to 1.2 (I think I might have tried something like 1.22 too, though I can't quite remember). 2100 seems like kind of a ceiling for mine, which runs fine at ... I want to say 1.15V that I've set VSOC to, though I'll have to double check that. So far it's been rock solid stable at 2100 at least. That might possibly be affected by the motherboard too - if yours is in the Aorus B550 it's no doubt better controlled than in the cheap ASRock I'm running. I spent a couple of hours playing Rocket League on the HTPC the other day, and I have to say that even at 1600x900 on a 55" TV, it delivers a really enjoyable experience at 80-110fps with FreeSync working very nicely. Definitely happy with the performance increase from the iGPU OC + 3800MHz RAM.



I have crazy amounts of vdroop on VSOC when the GPU is in play, that I can't seem to compensate for at ALL with LLC (maybe ~0.01V less droop between Normal and Turbo (second highest), if that). On the desktop it's a pretty normal amount of droop, but as soon as I'm in-game and the current starts flowing that 1.2V VSOC almost instantly drops to ~1.10V!  I think I have it stable at 1.196V Turbo LLC right now, but the Radeon driver didn't quite like it when I dropped to 1.190V High LLC @ 2300MHz GPU.

This sort of behaviour also applies to Vcore, LLC is almost useless there's so much droop. But while it would be fine to have like 1.35V SET 1.20V GET on Vcore, I don't have that kind of leeway with setting much higher VSOC and waiting for droop! I'd imagine that the crazy droop can affect both IF and iGPU stability when in-game.

Overall, I don't like this new Renesas RAA229004+ISL99390 setup on a lot of B550 upper-midrange boards. I know the IR35201 on my old board had much tighter LLC, so maybe the X570I Aorus Pro Wifi with IR35201+TDA21472 would be better if it didn't have the shitty 16MB chip and its associated BIOS issues

I think your APU board has a different PWM? The mATX Steel Legend that I had for a little bit had the same UP9505S+UP1911R+SIC654 setup, just more phases. I didn't test static OCs on that board, but it might be worth testing with higher LLC.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 4, 2021)

My mum has been telling me how jealous she is of my HT5 build and how unnecessarily big her desktop is. Well, she's one to talk, seeing as she's the one who kidnapped what was formerly my Haswell/R9 280X desktop in 2014 for the last 7 years. I guess I'll finally have my chunky R9 280X Vapor-X back in my hands soon.

 

Anywho, another small build this time. Still haven't exactly nailed down what case I'll be using this time, just collecting parts for now. Whichever is in stock, I guess.

Because my current 4650G will be going into this one (probably get a 5600G either grey market now or retail in August), not sure yet if I'll go without a CPU in my HTPC for a month or two, or make her wait a month or two.

I'll take my naked B-die kit and run it at something like 3600 16-16-16 to run some low VDIMM. Yeah, I know, it'll do 4200 17-18-18 but I don't think my E-die Tridents will fit under the L12S.

As for the board, I gave it some thought and decided on the cheap ASRock one.

B550M-ITX/ac: specs are similar to the MSI B450I MAX in almost every way, slightly weaker VRM but that's okay for a 65W APU.
B450I Aorus Pro Wifi: the first AM4 board I had, absolute dogshit BIOS, the dreaded Gigabyte 16MB BIOS chip and no Q-flash so no.
B450I Gaming MAX: slightly stronger VRM which is irrelevant. In the end I couldn't shake the memory of the only MSI board I ever had, a H81 ITX board that died after 1 year of use. I've never had a motherboard that unreliable. The other ASRock board I have lasted me 7 years. Features are also about as thin as on the ASRock board as well, not much cheaper.
Everything else: too expensive
The HDPlex 200W DC-ATX has been brilliant. But leaning towards the Lone L5 (~4.5L), so I'll need an external brick (as opposed to the internal HDPlex 200W AC-DC in my HT5). I got the 240W Dell 450-AHHE to use up some of my Dell Rewards discounts, should make for an interesting experience.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jun 4, 2021)

I wanted to buy this cheap asrock too. It is the only asrock board that fit in my tiny case but I have putting it off in current financial times. Asrock itx have been decent boards by experience based on my prior fatal1ty AB350 itx asrock. It also have the same layout for cpu power which fit my tiny case kinda regret selling this one it supported cpu up until Ryzen 3000. That is 3 generations of cpu support from the 1000s series, hats off to asrock when the ryzen 3000 series is themselves not officially supported by AMD.

Only downside if if you like to overclock their board have a lesser headroom otherwise they are excellent boards for plug and play. My overclocking days are over so even a basic board could do to me. Also hey it more fun getting satisfaction spending less too but having it working out so good.

Lone L5? Somehow when I read that I thought the case is lonely.  Look like a good case with a low profile gpu slot. I also regret not purchasing a 1650 lp when it was in stock. The 1650lp have been out of stock for months, There is the 1050ti lp still left in my local online store not sure if it worth grabbing as its like $40 more expensive than the 1650lp at msrp and  being abit slower.

Because of the Chia crypto currency I have upgraded my laptop SSD which was already in badly in need of upgrade. Replace the 512GB samsung with a 2TB sabrent rocket ssd. Luckily I grab that otherwise doing school work would be tough. Again something which I should do earlier, I luck it out grabbing it before 2TB nvme became crazy priced. I also used my crucial p1 1TB ssd which was once in an external case. I thought the ssd was the problem but it turns out my laptop usb port is not friendly with it using the external ssd enclousure. Yeah laptop need a repair but I have no spare little deskstop with a webcam for work.

I could grab a 3200G as temporary cpu with my deskmini x300 with my laptop sodimm while my laptop is sending for repair....That is the only thing I can think off without breaking the bank.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 4, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I wanted to buy this cheap asrock too. It is the only asrock board that fit in my tiny case but I have putting it off in current financial times. Asrock itx have been decent boards by experience based on my prior fatal1ty AB350 itx asrock. It also have the same layout for cpu power which fit my tiny case kinda regret selling this one it supported cpu up until Ryzen 3000. That is 3 generations of cpu support from the 1000s series, hats off to asrock when the ryzen 3000 series is themselves not officially supported by AMD.
> 
> Only downside if if you like to overclock their board have a lesser headroom otherwise they are excellent boards for plug and play. My overclocking days are over so even a basic board could do to me. Also hey it more fun getting satisfaction spending less too but having it working out so good.
> 
> ...



Well hey, you've already got the X300 Deskmini, pretty amazing setup in itself . I've already got two DDR4 kits lying around, both of which I know like the back of my hand, so it would be a waste to go Deskmini and have to buy SO-DIMMs. That, and my mother wants something with excellent build quality and also white in colour, so the Deskmini won't do. Thankfully she won't be doing OC  so the 6 x 50A VRM, cigar-shaped heatsink and the 6-layer PCB should be no problemo

The Lone L5 is great because it's the only case made here in Canada - guy lives in Alberta I think, so domestic shipping. It's just that production is always so limited. If pandemic restrictions weren't in place I could spend two, three days on the road and just drive there to pick it up, get away from the rat race for a while.

If you need a CPU but also save a buck, what about a 4350G? Surely it should be a better solution than a 3200G, and the 4C/8T seemed to not be too expensive either when I bought my 4650G.

Chia didn't seem to make much of a dent on SSD prices here. The SN550 I ordered off Amazon for this build was the exact same price as when I bought my SN550 for my laptop. Thank god for that, I don't know what I would do if SSDs became like GPUs. Speaking of GPUs, some of my friends who missed getting a GPU before ETH are really going crazy now, and I can feel their pain. $589CAD GTX1660, yikes. Even the GTX1650 is something like $450 I think, and on a waiting list. $450 to be put on a waiting list for a LP GPU. Jumping jack christ.


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## Valantar (Jun 4, 2021)

That ASRock board is what I've got in my HTPC, and it pairs beautifully with the 4650G IMO. Basic, but rock solid so far. Decent featureset for the price too. I actually considered going for the A520 version, but went B550 purely for memory OC reasons (I don't think I ever actually figured out if A520 supports mem oc at all?). Otherwise the A520 looks like a steal for a basic setup.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jun 4, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Well hey, you've already got the X300 Deskmini, pretty amazing setup in itself . I've already got two DDR4 kits lying around, both of which I know like the back of my hand, so it would be a waste to go Deskmini and have to buy SO-DIMMs. That, and my mother wants something with excellent build quality and also white in colour, so the Deskmini won't do. Thankfully she won't be doing OC  so the 6 x 50A VRM, cigar-shaped heatsink and the 6-layer PCB should be no problemo
> 
> The Lone L5 is great because it's the only case made here in Canada - guy lives in Alberta I think, so domestic shipping. It's just that production is always so limited. If pandemic restrictions weren't in place I could spend two, three days on the road and just drive there to pick it up, get away from the rat race for a while.
> 
> ...



Ohhh if you have those ddr4 high speed sticks the choice is obvious for you then. Somehow I think those rams kits are abit overkill lol. My deskmini is still lonely inside its box, I got it because I the only ddr4 rams I got is sodimms like my laptop which this deskmini board support.  I saw some people painted their deskmini white, you can consider but since you got the rams Lone L5 might be better.

"6 x 50A VRM, cigar-shaped heatsink and the 6-layer PCB should be no problemo." I can hear my laptop fans whirling up in offense when you said that   . It feelings is hurt. It is asking "I am a joke to you?" xD

How many cases would you have now? Damn that is great that is local! Shipping price is a nightmare for sff cases usually.

There is no 4350G locally though. Going 4350g is putting real close to 4650g based on online price. I'll think about this.

Chia mostly make dent for nvme drives 2TB and above. Sata ssd drives is not affected much and 1TB nvme is less affected. On HDD land on the other hand anything above 5TB for 3.5 inch are gone. I grabbed 5TB seagate 2.5 inch drives instead to tide me this period, just when I thought of getting rid of SMR based drives and going all WD PMR 3.5 inch this happens. Sigh.
Gpu land here is about the same too with 1660 being around that price. Gtx 1650 raise abit but stocks are there still I think have not went down the shop yet to see only based on local online retailers.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 4, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> "6 x 50A VRM, cigar-shaped heatsink and the 6-layer PCB should be no problemo." I can hear my laptop fans whirling up in offense when you said that  . It feelings is hurt. It is asking "I am a joke to you?" xD



 Well, running a 12-core in a laptop is always an achievement lol, hats off to you. But VRM was definitely a bit of an issue for the B450 ITX boards. The ASRock board used decent dual N-fets but still discretes, the Gigabyte (that I had) didn't have the Vcore phases for 12-16 core CPUs, and the 40A PowIRs on the Asus kinda let it down.



MIRTAZAPINE said:


> How many cases would you have now? Damn that is great that is local! Shipping price is a nightmare for sff cases usually.
> 
> There is no 4350G locally though. Going 4350g is putting real close to 4650g based on online price. I'll think about this.
> 
> ...



It's just the HT5 housing my HTPC, Cerberus housing my main, NCASE with my old Haswell hardware for another family member, and whatever comes next for my mum. I don't have any extra SFF cases lying around unused. I (or my wallet) would never be okay with myself if I just randomly had like a Velka 3 sitting around lol

Man it's always so wack, it's like all the undesirable market trends are somehow all concentrated in Singapore  how come the chunky laptop had to go in for RMA again?

There's _supposed_ to be a 4-core 5300G, but I don't think AMD is releasing it for the retail market with the 5600/5700G.



Valantar said:


> That ASRock board is what I've got in my HTPC, and it pairs beautifully with the 4650G IMO. Basic, but rock solid so far. Decent featureset for the price too. I actually considered going for the A520 version, but went B550 purely for memory OC reasons (I don't think I ever actually figured out if A520 supports mem oc at all?). Otherwise the A520 looks like a steal for a basic setup.



ASRock fanboy jk  it's a good no-frills board and has the right socket placement too. The B550I Aorus AX places the socket too high up.

It's kinda strange how budget ITX boards featureset haven't improved. My 5-6 year old H97N-WIFI has a 2T2R 867Mbps Intel 7260 card, while these budget AM4s all have 1T1R 433Mbps Intel 3168. 1Gbe Intel LAN (I217) on my H97 (with a second Realtek NIC as well), vs 1Gbe Realtek (8111) on the AM4s. ALC892 on the H97, contrast ALC887 on the AM4s.

The A520M-ITX/ac is obscenely expensive for me, just $10 cheaper than the B550, unfortunately. IIRC A520 is okay with memory overclocking? It's just CPU ratio OC that it's not supposed to do, but BZ just hit the BCLK instead:










That reminds me, does your B550M-ITX/ac have a software VRM temp sensor?


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## tabascosauz (Jun 16, 2021)

So it appears that either -

my old 20H2 install was terminally ill
21H1 really did voodoo magic on iGPUs
both
The new install performs consistently better in Valley. Before you ask, the old and new scores were consistently repeated in 3 or more runs.

Exact same Radeon 21.4.1 drivers
Same graphics settings in Windows
Same Radeon settings
No background programs aside from HWInfo
Same 2275MHz core @ 1.2V,
Absolutely identical memory profile with tRTP 8
More importantly, it's almost completely eliminated the remaining FPS dips in Genshin Impact. It's a night and day difference.

Thats why you should remember to clean install every year, kids   

Before / 20H2: 





After / 21H1: 





As a refresher, old baseline score with stock 1900MHz GPU at same mem freq but looser timings:


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## Mussels (Jun 16, 2021)

Whats the big deal between them? 3FPS seems like margin of error in those results, and your min FPS is only 0.3fps different


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## tabascosauz (Jun 16, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Whats the big deal between them? 3FPS seems like margin of error in those results, and your min FPS is only 0.3fps different



This isn't AIDA, margin of error isn't so big lol. Deviation from run to run Valley is about 0.1FPS, up to 0.3FPS at most, Vega doesn't randomly pull free performance out of its ass. It's just a nice and consistent benchmark to test with, the game doesn't have a built-in benchmark run. Valley also quite sensitive to core stability.

Valley's min FPS is somewhat indicative of performance uplift (see result #2 and #3 above), but doesn't tell the whole difference in performance and user experience. In-game, there's a much bigger difference to FPS lows where FPS always dips in the same spots/times.

At 1900/1600MHz or so, most of the game is in the 20-50fps region. The lows areas are almost unplayable.
At 1900/2100MHz, the lows are somewhere in the 20ish FPS region, even though 90% of the game is 40-50fps+ at stock.
At 2275/2100MHz on 20H2 and 21.4.1, those lows improve to 45-50fps ish, but still quite stuttery. Otherwise game sometimes falls to 50fps or so in inclement weather.
At 2275/2100Mhz on 21H1 and 21.4.1, lows are basically eliminated and much smoother, game is pretty much 60fps at all times.
Interesting that a new Windows update and a clean install can make that much difference.


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## tabascosauz (Jul 3, 2021)

L5 (4.6L) vs HT5 (5.3L):






L5 (4.6L) vs Cerberus (18.7L):






Weeeeellllllll......"big" is a bit subjective when it's still less than half the size of a NZXT H510 

------------

So I finally sorted out that L12S/L12 shenanigans with Noctua. For those not in the loop, this happened when I ordered 2 x L12S and 1 x L12 Ghost S1 Edition off Amazon:






Amazon wouldn't do anything for me aside from return/refund/reorder because it was technically sold by Noctua's Canadian distributor. Technically nothing stopped me from returning/reordering............except that one of the L12S was *ALREADY* a replacement for the first bent L12S and I had waited already 3 weeks for them  and because Amazon seems to have intentionally slowed down their shipping (after having lightning fast free shipping 2 months ago), it would take me at least 2-3 weeks before I could get a replacement through Amazon, AND no guarantee it wouldn't be bent on attempt #3

I let Noctua know and sent them all the pics and details - they quickly arranged to send me 1 x L12S and 1 x L12 Ghost S1, all the way from Austria. Via UPS, which only took 3 business days, I think. Didn't have to be out roughly an extra $70 x 2 to gamble again on Amazon before my return was processed, and was able to use the L12 that I needed in the meantime (gently un-bent it to fit, though still had some issues obviously from being originally bent).

They also wanted to see what exactly happened to the bent coolers, so there was a return label for me to send the shittier L12S and the L12 right back to Austria. Should be arriving this weekend or Monday. The leftover 3rd cooler I'll just be returning to Amazon for my money back.

The two replacement L12 and L12S are absolutely flawless. Really makes you wonder what happened to the original coolers 

And as always, Noctua customer support delivers, absolute pleasure dealing with them as usual. It's just a shame those 3 coolers were in that unfortunate state to begin with.


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## tabascosauz (Aug 3, 2021)

It's time for a writeup. 

I wasn't entirely happy with how vendors were continuing to treat mATX as an exclusively budget form factor. Maybe I'm still salty about the Gene or the better boards being relegated to B560 instead of Z590. Or maybe I'm just pissed off about the TUF colour scheme ruining the entire aesthetic especially since the Cerberus isn't a cheap case and the 5900X isn't a cheap CPU.

But most likely: all of these are just really weak excuses for masking the fact that I really just wanted a hardware upgrade  

-----------------------------------------------

*Board:*

Don't suppose the Unify-X needs any introduction. Until EVGA decides to show up 2+ years late with its X570S Dark, it remains the only full sized AM4 2DIMMer. I really love the aesthetic, and just didn't want a 4DIMM board if I'm literally only ever using a dual rank 2DIMM kit.

The VRM is so unbelievably overkill - it's basically impossible for the VRM to break a sweat with the 5900X. I don't think I've ever seen the VRM over 45C. Coming from ITX and mATX, there's so many fan headers everywhere..................gone are the days of having to Y-splitter two fans together and then extend them to reach a fan header halfway across the board.

M.2 heatsinks are good. Thoughtful of MSI to place two layers of thermal pads under them - if you have a single-sided drive you can leave both there, if you have a double-sided drive you remove one layer and save it for future use.

-----------------------------------------------

*RAM:*

On paper, there's not a lot to gain going from 2x16GB CJR @ 3600 16-19-19 to 2x16GB B-die @ 3600 14-14-14 aside from a lot of $$$. The CJR could do 3733 16-19-19 below 1.4V, and the B-die does 3600 14-14-14 tightened at 1.42V and 3800 14-15-15 tightened at 1.5V. The B-die cost 69% (giggity) more than the CJR and sure as hell doesn't provide 69% (giggity) more perf.

_Howeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrr............e_ver since I got MW2019 bundled with my 2060 Super that I bought in 2019, I've been plagued by this thing: 

This thing is supposed to indicate "packet loss". That's horseshit, there's nothing wrong with my internet, playing a custom bot game changes nothing. Whenever the icon shows, there's very real stuttering and frame skipping. The frame skipping strictly coincides only with certain animations - firing first bullet in a mag, initating a slide, racking the bolt on a new weapon picked up, smoke grenade for the weapon drop feature, very specific point in the inspect animation.

Things I have tried to fix the very systematic stuttering:

Changing CPUs (3700X/5900X), boards (B450I Aorus Pro Wifi, B550I Aorus AX, B550M TUF), GPUs (1070, 2060 Super)
Changing GPU drivers, AGESA and BIOS
Changing CPU overclocks, changing RAM overclocks
Changing power supplies
Purported life hacks in the config files for the game in Documents, deleting Documents folder for game
Reinstalling shaders
Changing game graphics settings
Reinstalling game
Reinstalling Windows
Moving to a different SSD
Running no background tasks or monitoring
Running at full fan speed
Whether the game decides to stutter one day is completely up to chance. If it starts, there is no way to make it go away (it persists after restarting PC and restarting game), except to bear it out until it naturally goes away in about 10 minutes of gameplay.

The B-die has finally fixed all of that. No more stuttering and frame skipping. Not. One. Bit. It doesn't matter if I'm at XMP or on one of my profiles, 3600CL14 or 3733CL14 or 3800CL14. 

Crazy, yeah? Who woulda thunk it?

There are also smoothness/consistency gains in other games as well, just not quite as blatant as in MW. I guess the benefits of RAM really can't be dismissed just because they aren't represented in a nice neat bar graph, unlike what some Youtube channels seem to think. 

-----------------------------------------------

*Case:*

I think I've said too much about the Cerberus X at this point. It's a bigger Cerberus that fits high-end motherboards. ATX is good.

-----------------------------------------------


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## Mussels (Aug 3, 2021)

There is absolutely weirdness to be had with borderline stable RAM

made me think of the other thread we have with WHEA errors that all come down to WD mech drives, but unstable IF can cause pretty similar weirdness


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## tabascosauz (Aug 4, 2021)

Mussels said:


> There is absolutely weirdness to be had with borderline stable RAM
> 
> made me think of the other thread we have with WHEA errors that all come down to WD mech drives, but unstable IF can cause pretty similar weirdness



Since finding out, I spent long hours racking my brain for an explanation and none of them make any sense:

I had to go the extra mile for the 3700X, but I can assure you that IF was/is stable on both CPUs.
Couldn't have been blatantly unstable, because it always passed MT86, HCI, TM5, Prime95 Large FFT, and LinX with ease.
Couldn't have been borderline unstable, because it wouldn't have passed those tests, also despite passing HCI at 1.35V I always ran 1.37V or 1.38V for extra safety headroom.
Also happens at XMP.
BZ recently claimed that similar DJR is temp sensitive like B-die; but if so, hitting 50C during CSGO when I was still in the NCASE should have destabilized and clearly never did.
Ruled out CPU, ruled out GPU, ruled out drivers, ruled out board, ruled out PSU, ruled out AGESA/BIOS, ruled out Windows, ruled out the game, ruled out monitor, ruled out peripherals, ruled out storage.
I made sure to stay within a range appropriate for CJR (certainly not a performance king) for all timings, and it would have been caught by any of 5 different memtests.
Couldn't have been degradation (some reports of 1.4V being excessive for CJR), because I haven't needed to bump the voltage in almost 2 years of use, and symptoms haven't ever changed for better or worse.
All I can think of are CAD_BUS and procODT, which are different on the B-die and Unify-X. But that also doesn't make sense, because why wouldn't the stuttering happen all the time, only once in a while and only for the first 10ish minutes?

But yeah, you're right, there was some crazy fuckery going on. I don't expect to find the answer anytime soon, if at all.


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## Mussels (Aug 4, 2021)

temp related could make sense, if the RAM literally freezes/pauses for a moment, then wakes up literally a second later - one brief bit of stutter and its cool

whys it erratic? cause that one ram module simply may not be the one in use, the next time


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## Valantar (Aug 4, 2021)

Hm, that is _really_ interesting. I've been seeing some ... possibly similar weirdness on my system, in particular packet loss and latency variation warnings in Rocket League (it's the only online game I play with some regularity). Seems to happen regardless of the internet connection quality. This is with my 3200c14 B-die though (running at DOCP, still haven't bothered to OC it any). I might stick my old TridentZ kit in here just to see if anything changes.

As part of troubleshooting this, I've discovered that my system seems to get some pretty bad DPC latency issues after one or more sleep cycles, particularly when left asleep overnight. After a reboot everything is fine though. Any chance you could run LatencyMon with your previous kit after a sleep cycle or two to see if there is any relation? (I've been in contact with ASRock about this, and they say they can't reproduce it.) My RAM never exceeds ~45°C though.


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## Mussels (Aug 4, 2021)

There was that thingy with ryzen and the WHEA errors causing the USB ports to reset, because of errors on the PCI-E bus (usually caused by PCI-E 3.0 risers mostly managing 4.0 due to error correction)
clarity edit: errors on one system (PCI-E) caused a related piece of hardware to reset with it (USB 3) - this could be similar, with something resetting invisibly causing super fast stutter

this could be similar... it could be the RAM itself, it could be a barely managed error, or it could be a coinkydink (such as changing a riser cable and not thinking it related)


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## tabascosauz (Aug 4, 2021)

Mussels said:


> temp related could make sense, if the RAM literally freezes/pauses for a moment, then wakes up literally a second later - one brief bit of stutter and its cool
> 
> whys it erratic? cause that one ram module simply may not be the one in use, the next time



The only thing I can think of is that it is some sort of bizarre never-before-seen "cold bug" on Hynix. If it chose to manifest, it would only be in the first half of the first match of the day. If I saw it and immediately quit and restarted, it would continue as soon as I came back, and would persist as long as I didn't suffer through the always initial 5-10 minutes of gameplay before it went away.

As you know RAM always starts out cold in the high 20s or low 30s, then slowly makes its own heat/roasted by the CPU/roasted by the GPU. MW is not a light game, always hits both CPU and GPU hard (even if framerate limited/DLSS/CPU or GPU bound). That said, either no other game suffered the same way or was never obvious enough to notice.

But MW isn't that much of a RAM heater, the CJR @ 1.38V was like 44C max. Almost the same temp as the B-die @ 1.5V, 43-44C. It's not nearly enough to trip B-die, which is by FAR the most temp sensitive of any IC.

For a long time esp. on the cursed 3700X I thought it was an IF issue. But it seems like a red herring in the end. I did have the random USB disconnect sounds from Aug 2019 all the way up till I switched to the Unify-X last month, but that's separate.



Valantar said:


> Hm, that is _really_ interesting. I've been seeing some ... possibly similar weirdness on my system, in particular packet loss and latency variation warnings in Rocket League (it's the only online game I play with some regularity). Seems to happen regardless of the internet connection quality. This is with my 3200c14 B-die though (running at DOCP, still haven't bothered to OC it any). I might stick my old TridentZ kit in here just to see if anything changes.
> 
> As part of troubleshooting this, I've discovered that my system seems to get some pretty bad DPC latency issues after one or more sleep cycles, particularly when left asleep overnight. After a reboot everything is fine though. Any chance you could run LatencyMon with your previous kit after a sleep cycle or two to see if there is any relation? (I've been in contact with ASRock about this, and they say they can't reproduce it.) My RAM never exceeds ~45°C though.



I tried running LatencyMon a lot. It would always pick up on the nuanced micro-stuttering due to multitasking/monitoring software/other GPU usage while in game, but never on the extremely obvious frameskipping. Not once. LatencyMon wouldn't even register a small spike, just looked completely normal though I was literally missing the first 0.1 sec of a slide or inspect animation.

On the topic of the other microstuttering, moving to dual rank B-die was a CRAZY difference. The perceived reduction in input lag was like 60Hz>165Hz all over again. And not even the slightest hint of stuttering, I never realized how rough it used to be until I fired up the game on 3600CL14 and it was BUTTERY smooth. I could entertain the idea of placebo if it was at night or drinking (tired, less alert, everything feels "smooth"), but this is in the middle of the day.

Both are dual rank kits, so it's not the single rank min FPS issue. 3600CL16 CJR to 3600CL14/3800CL14 B-die.

Although, I'm debating going back to 3600CL14 because 3800CL14 doesn't actually improve anything in any game, lol. Saves me 80mV in VDIMM, 75mV in VSOC, 50mV VDDP, and a whopping 110mV on VDDG


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## Valantar (Aug 4, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I tried running LatencyMon a lot. It would always pick up on the nuanced micro-stuttering due to multitasking/monitoring software/other GPU usage while in game, but never on the extremely obvious frameskipping. Not once. LatencyMon wouldn't even register a small spike, just looked completely normal though I was literally missing the first 0.1 sec of a slide or inspect animation.
> 
> On the topic of the other microstuttering, moving to dual rank B-die was a CRAZY difference. The perceived reduction in input lag was like 60Hz>165Hz all over again. And not even the slightest hint of stuttering, I never realized how rough it used to be until I fired up the game on 3600CL14 and it was BUTTERY smooth. I could entertain the idea of placebo if it was at night or drinking (tired, less alert, everything feels "smooth"), but this is in the middle of the day.
> 
> ...


Hm, I've never watched LatencyMon _while_ playing (only got a second monitor a few weeks ago, and I've taken a break in troubleshooting this for a while). Definitely worth a try! I'm getting DPC latency spikes in the 2500+ range just sitting on the desktop in web browsers and stuff though. And my kit is dual rank B-die, unless I have no idea how to read a Taiphoon Burner readout.





That being said, I feel like I'm doing this RAM a disservice by not tuning it some


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## Valantar (Aug 4, 2021)

Mussels said:


> There was that thingy with ryzen and the WHEA errors causing the USB ports to reset, because of errors on the PCI-E bus (usually caused by PCI-E 3.0 risers mostly managing 4.0 due to error correction)
> clarity edit: errors on one system (PCI-E) caused a related piece of hardware to reset with it (USB 3) - this could be similar, with something resetting invisibly causing super fast stutter
> 
> this could be similar... it could be the RAM itself, it could be a barely managed error, or it could be a coinkydink (such as changing a riser cable and not thinking it related)


Might be. I'm not seeing any errors in Event Viewer though.


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## tabascosauz (Aug 11, 2021)

2 years of DDR4, Ryzen, and horrible AGESA experiences


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## tabascosauz (Sep 13, 2021)

Here's an expensive lesson in 
*if 
it 
ain't 
broke, 
DON'T 
FIX 
IT*​
When I bought my Cerberus X, I made the questionable decision to get a windowed panel, but the Cerberus X's SFX internal setup makes for a limited choice of viable coolers, let alone those that work thermally with a windowed panel. The windowed panel has been on the back all this time (offering a GREAT glimpse of the back of the socket ), and I wanted to put it on the front to show off.

So I wanted a cooler that wouldn't absolutely suffocate with the window on. Ergo, fixing what ain't broke.

NH-U9S: one of my favourite coolers but certainly not better than the C14S, and 2 x NF-A9 are kinda whiny sounding
Any of Thermalright "Mini" 120mm coolers: not enough heatsink mass, not available
NH-L12S: too weak, not enough heatpipes, single-fan U9S-level performance
Dark Rock TF: horrible RAM clearance, weird compatibility with non-BQ fans
Fuma Rev.B: discontinued, barely fits with vented panel, cannot use windowed panel
Fuma 2: does not fit
NH-C14S: big chungus, clearance issues in push-pull, anything except vented panel murders performance
Thermalright Silver Arrow 130: literally designed to cut your hands, weird fan size, 600g
Thermalright Silver Soul 135: not designed to cut your hands, also weird fan size, 590g
Knowing that, doesn't the SS135 sound like the perfect cooler? Welllllllllllll.....................................................





Reminds me of that one thread arguing over the merits of downdraft coolers............................well, it's on full display right here 

Needless to say, I went back to the C14S and the windowed panel went back on the backside of the case where I can't and don't want to see it. I guess it was a little much to ask of a ~740g cooler when it's going up against a ~1400g cooler.

And I'm sending the Corsair Vengeance RAM cooler right back as well. It's not terrible, but it doesn't cool as well as the C14S (imagine, a CPU cooler that does a better job at cooling RAM than a RAM cooler).













Oh, and the rough coldplate on the Thermalright also scratched my CPU. I might use this cooler as lapping practice since I can't really say I give a shit about it anymore. Once I get the coldplate fixed, might do a head-to-head with the U9S on some old hardware. I have a feeling the U9S might win with 2 fans, seeing the performance the SS135 has offered up so far, but who knows what it'll do with 2 x 120mm.





Remember the motto: if it ain't broke..........


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## Mussels (Sep 13, 2021)

Are there better fans than the NF-A9 you can use instead for the NH-U9S?

be quiet have some stupidly quiet fans, p[retty sure they have a 92mm model?


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## freeagent (Sep 13, 2021)

Sorry to hear brother, was hoping the cooler would have worked out for you. I won’t be recommending the brand anymore. It’s been good for me, but my experience isn’t everyone else’s 

Sorry about your IHS too 

Mine has a pit in it too, not sure how it got there


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## QuietBob (Sep 13, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Oh, and the rough coldplate on the Thermalright also scratched my CPU.


How did that happen?  It's difficult for me to even imagine how the cooler would do so much scratching on its own. What paste did you use?


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## tabascosauz (Sep 14, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Are there better fans than the NF-A9 you can use instead for the NH-U9S?
> 
> be quiet have some stupidly quiet fans, p[retty sure they have a 92mm model?



BQ's fans are the quietest, definitely quieter than A9 but the U9S needs all the airflow since 92mm fans only push so much air. A9 pushes 46cfm, Silent Wings and Pure Wings push about 35cfm.

I was just speculating, I don't have both the SS135 and U9S to test at the same time, need to use at least one on another PC. I always use the C14S in my main.



freeagent said:


> Sorry to hear brother, was hoping the cooler would have worked out for you. I won’t be recommending the brand anymore. It’s been good for me, but my experience isn’t everyone else’s
> 
> Sorry about your IHS too
> 
> Mine has a pit in it too, not sure how it got there



I don't mind larger scratches as every one of my coolers gets some eventually, usually around the outline of the IHS from the mounting pressure. It's the pits/protrusions that are concerning, I don't think I've ever bought a cooler in my life that damaged a CPU.

Thermalright is aight, it's just not for me. I'd still buy a FC140 if I had a big case. But they really have to step up their fit and finish and QC.



QuietBob said:


> How did that happen?  It's difficult for me to even imagine how the cooler would do so much scratching on its own. What paste did you use?



It was mostly down to my stupidity, I already saw the pitting out of the box but it felt minor enough that I didn't think much of it. What it looks like is how it came, it had the protective film still on so I assume this is how it left the factory.

Not surprised from the rest of the fit and finish.

I just use NT-H2 these days. H1, H2 and MX4 have never scratched a cooler.


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## QuietBob (Sep 14, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> What it looks like is how it came, it had the protective film still on so I assume this is how it left the factory.


Oh man, if that's the case Thermalright really need to get their act together. One has to wonder whether it was inept workmanship or cursory QC? Regardless, sorry to hear about your mishap. My experience with their coolers has been very positive. I have four of their big Machos, and all of them perform admirably in standard cases. Perhaps they can't realize their full potential in a small one?


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## freeagent (Sep 14, 2021)

It’s strange, my fc140 is mint, fit and finish was like my D14.. tight.. nice base to mount.


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## The red spirit (Sep 14, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> BQ's fans are the quietest, definitely quieter than A9 but the U9S needs all the airflow since 92mm fans only push so much air. A9 pushes 46cfm, Silent Wings and Pure Wings push about 35cfm.


I highly doubt that. I have read many reviews at TPU and final conclusion is that fans are all almost the same at cfm/noise ratio. There's is a difference at which rpm cfm and noise values are achieved between fans, but cfm/noise varies only very little. The only fan that managed to truly break away at high rpms was NF-A12, but that's it. Most fans perform the same as generic 7/9 bladers. However there are some experimental designs that failed to match even that basic performance level. In fact there are more failures to reach generic fan performance level than successes. BQ seems like a nice brand, but I don't think that their fans are any special. They often aren't going really low in RPMs. You want something that goes really low, Scythe makes that. Cooling performance isn't great, but they are quiet. Some of their PWM fans go as low at 400 RPM. Now that's impressive, but probably not viable in SFF PC.


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## P4-630 (Sep 14, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Some of their PWM fans go as low at 400 RPM.



If you can't control the speed of your fans by BIOS or software, with noctua you have an extra option




The NF-A12x25 PWM minimal rotation speed is 450rpm.








						NF-A12x25 PWM
					

The NF-A12x25 is a highly optimised next-generation 120mm fan that integrates Noctua’s latest innovations in aerodynamic engineering in order to achieve an unprecedented level of quiet cooling performance. It takes state-of-the-art technologies such as the AAO (Advanced Acoustic Optimisation)...




					noctua.at


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## Valantar (Sep 14, 2021)

Be Quiet! only has the Pure Wings 2 in 92mm, and those are rated at 56m³/h vs. 79m³/h for the NF-A9 (at 1900rpm vs 2000 for the Noctua). Of course ratings and real-world performance are two very different things (especially given that there AFAIK is no actual standard for fan ratings), but that's a _big_ difference. I doubt there are better 92x25mm fans on the market than the Noctuas.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 14, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Be Quiet! only has the Pure Wings 2 in 92mm, and those are rated at 56m³/h vs. 79m³/h for the NF-A9 (at 1900rpm vs 2000 for the Noctua).


Is that because I'm hoarding them all?


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 14, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I highly doubt that. I have read many reviews at TPU and final conclusion is that fans are all almost the same at cfm/noise ratio. There's is a difference at which rpm cfm and noise values are achieved between fans, but cfm/noise varies only very little. The only fan that managed to truly break away at high rpms was NF-A12, but that's it. Most fans perform the same as generic 7/9 bladers. However there are some experimental designs that failed to match even that basic performance level. In fact there are more failures to reach generic fan performance level than successes. BQ seems like a nice brand, but I don't think that their fans are any special. They often aren't going really low in RPMs. You want something that goes really low, Scythe makes that. Cooling performance isn't great, but they are quiet. Some of their PWM fans go as low at 400 RPM. Now that's impressive, but probably not viable in SFF PC.


Currently running those PW2 fans at about 600rpm on my two radiators and front three intakes.
Granted, I don't bother overclocking either the 5800X or 3060Ti so peak load is only ~300W in synthetic combined loads and real-world is more like 250W.

It does depend how quiet your noise floor is though, because even though those fans will start and run at about 500rpm, they're quieter than my air-source heat extractors two rooms away as long as they're running below about 750rpm under the desk.


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## Valantar (Sep 14, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Is that because I'm hoarding them all?
> 
> View attachment 216891
> View attachment 216897


... those are 120mm? We were talking about 92mm fans. I think you interpreted my sentence as "the pure wings 2 series only comes in 92mm" and not "they only have 92mm fans in the pure wings 2 series", which was the intended meaning. Given that people were discussing possible alternative fans for the NH-U9S I thought that much would be clear.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 14, 2021)

Oh, you Mean "BeQuiet's only 92mm fans are in the pure wings 2 series?

I skipped a few posts, admittedly thought we were looking at Tabasco's shortlist of CPU coolers still.

U9S with decently fast fans will be fine, I have eight 1950X with NH-U9 TR4-SP3 on them, it's surprising how well that thing cools even at modest fan RPMs.


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## Mussels (Sep 14, 2021)

Guys, it wasnt about the performance: it was that he didn't like the noctuas noise profile

So if you gotta drop a noctua to 450rpm cause you hate the sound but can run a BQ at 1500RPM cause it doesn't vibrate the air in a way that tickles your ear hairs, you're getting more performance per tickle and you're happier.


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## Valantar (Sep 15, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Guys, it wasnt about the performance: it was that he didn't like the noctuas noise profile
> 
> So if you gotta drop a noctua to 450rpm cause you hate the sound but can run a BQ at 1500RPM cause it doesn't vibrate the air in a way that tickles your ear hairs, you're getting more performance per tickle and you're happier.


That's true. Though then the question becomes if the Noctuas wouldn't sound equally pleasant at a lower RPM. They might not, but the impulse to not leav performance on the table can be very strong too.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 15, 2021)

My experience of Noctua fans is that they're significantly quieter than many other brands at their full speed but not necessarily optimised for very low rpms.

BeQuiet's fans do seem to be excellent performers - both acoustically and airflow - at very low speeds. I wouldn't choose a BeQuiet over a Noctua for a high-performance solution requiring >1000rpm but for a use-case where the motor noise is more significant than the airflow noise, even their cheaper Pure Wings 2 are my preference over Noctua.


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## Jdogdarkness (Oct 11, 2021)

Hmm. So i got my new 5900x and the problems persist. My write speeds are always messed up. Across all caches the read/ write/ copy ALWAYS vary across l2 and l3. For the l1 cache it very often. From what i understand a variation in over 20 gb/s shows some sort of instability. This problem is even on stock. I cannot figure it out i have replaced everything. Last thing i have is i replaced my PSU with the same PSU model. Maybe 5900x doesn't play nicely with corsair rm850x? But then again my laptop is starting to come out of sync too. (4800h). Could i have like bad electricity that is frying my hardware?


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## tabascosauz (Oct 11, 2021)

Jdogdarkness said:


> Hmm. So i got my new 5900x and the problems persist. My write speeds are always messed up. Across all caches the read/ write/ copy ALWAYS vary across l2 and l3. For the l1 cache it very often. From what i understand a variation in over 20 gb/s shows some sort of instability. This problem is even on stock. I cannot figure it out i have replaced everything. Last thing i have is i replaced my PSU with the same PSU model. Maybe 5900x doesn't play nicely with corsair rm850x? But then again my laptop is starting to come out of sync too. (4800h). Could i have like bad electricity that is frying my hardware?



Did you already RMA your 5900X and this is a new CPU? Got any screenshots of this?

I have to admit I don't care about cache results much. There's too much that can impact that - AIDA being AIDA, unstable CPU OC, unstable RAM OC, unstable IF, insufficient VSOC or minor voltages, bad windows config (too corrupted/damaged, or too many background programs), bad CPU, bad board...... As long as it's roughly in the right ballpark I haven't paid too much attention.

After my experience, I would probably look towards the board and the RAM. Did you say you were on DJR? If you're able to I'd just pick up a B-die kit from Amazon (30 day returns) and see if anything changes.

20GB/s seems wayyyyy too stringent a requirement for any L1/L2/L3. If you're running at stock then even the boost algorithm alone will naturally account for run-to-run variances bigger than that.....100GB/s is where I'd call it instability, and 200GB/s a bug.


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## Mussels (Oct 12, 2021)

Jdogdarkness said:


> Hmm. So i got my new 5900x and the problems persist. My write speeds are always messed up. Across all caches the read/ write/ copy ALWAYS vary across l2 and l3. For the l1 cache it very often. From what i understand a variation in over 20 gb/s shows some sort of instability. This problem is even on stock. I cannot figure it out i have replaced everything. Last thing i have is i replaced my PSU with the same PSU model. Maybe 5900x doesn't play nicely with corsair rm850x? But then again my laptop is starting to come out of sync too. (4800h). Could i have like bad electricity that is frying my hardware?


No, cant be bad electricity.
You really do need to fill out your system specs, people can't help you with part of the information.

The top link in my sig is a work in progress guide for people like you stuck with mystery problems, go read through it and try the troubleshooting steps - remove un-needed hardware and software, disconnect from the internet, etc.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 17, 2021)

Polling the water crowd:

Anyone knowledgeable about building loops can check over my parts list, and help with fittings? I figure it'll be a while before I can even think about Caselabs in realistic terms, so considering that I probably won the QC lottery on my old white Cerberus it seems like a good opportunity to dip into water with a CPU-only loop (Barrow/Corsair blocks not available for 2060S/2070 FE anymore).

I was originally thinking of a simple 280mm AIO, but the Cerberus makes it hard without having the PSU covering the board.. Pure Loop (lack of quality) and Coreliquid R (no 280mm) not really viable.

This is my list so far, minus fittings and other miscellaneous tools:






So while I'm pretty sure the other choices won't change too much (Iceman res and Optimus block bought already), but fittings........I was originally was just going to put 12 x regular fittings due to the EK configurator saying I only needed 6.................until I realized that I'm probably going to need at least 2 x 45 degree fittings, probably 2-4 extenders and a few 90 degree and 90 degree swivel fittings. Not to mention any drain valve/T-splitters etc.

Got a couple of days to work out the fittings - have taken a bit of a liking to the EK fittings, and the rest of the order needs to wait a bit since DDC isn't in stock until 19th.


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## Mussels (Nov 17, 2021)

I dont use aqua, but i got some tips and pics
I am *new* to the watercooling world, but i got a good 6 months of trial and error going on here - my setup is ghetto, over complicated and i love it cause all the dumb ideas were my own.

(Hardest anti-lazy lesson: do not twist soft tubing to attach or remove fittings. Hose on/off first)

Use rotaries a lot, they're LIFE savers.
The build will be 3 dimensional, so sometimes you'll need more bits than a 2D diagram can show you - or simply need to have a hose move off to the left 45 degrees, before it lines up with the next component

QDC's basically dont exist small. I own some, and gave up on ever making them fit.

You need two drain/fill valves, EK has some super compact ones, or you can use ball valves (bigger, cheaper) - do NOT skip drain and fill ports! You can use a Y fitting (I use the cube style) to help fit these in odd places.
You definitely want one at either end of the loop... you have no idea how much easier it is to drain when you can open both sides up.

Mine needed tipping and tilting and took a dozen tries to drain, but then i added one cube style joiner at the top rad and bam, cracking it just drained the left side of the loop instantly.
The right side (with my res) was still full and not pouring out -  closing the left side one and cracking open the top of the res on the right, bam that side drained.

Here is my two drain/fill locations, since the pump is located below the res it stops the pump from needing to spin, to drain. My res has 4 plugs on it which is overkill, but simply twisting those to open lets air in, and WHOOSH coolant goes out the lower drain tap. I can also use the left one to fill up the GPU from above, seal that, then fill the res (instead of half filling, start pump for 10 seconds, turn off, fill again, etc)

Remember that to fill from those, i can screw in a G1/4 fitting and some spare hose and safely fill away from the PC (same with draining from a distance) - and blow air into them for draining 




I also used a flow meter to help extend and stabilise that odd angled res to GPU intake position (face hugger optional, requires hoarding 80's action figures)

Top res has one rotary extender, then the Y splitting cube thing - back fitting is just a stationary extender, then a rotary 90 degree (keeps them level, and out of fans)




Then due to an annoying height difference, i used two 90 degree fittings and an extender for in and out of the front rad, and the worlds shortest soft tubing.
It's still flexible for small shifting and adjustments of pump/res/front rad movement, but using the extra fittings made it stay where the heck i wanted it to be.





I also use a SATA to USB adaptor (the kind made for 2.5" laptop drives) with an optional 12V power brick, so i can power NOTHING but the pump - the PSU isn't connected so while filling and testing
This is the newest variety of them: add a 12V brick, and bam - sata with 5V and 12V (Mine was keyed so i couldnt directly attach normal SATA devices, so i snapped a small piece off a sata double adaptor to live with it)


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## Valantar (Nov 17, 2021)

Mussels said:


> I dont use aqua, but i got some tips and pics
> I am *new* to the watercooling world, but i got a good 6 months of trial and error going on here - my setup is ghetto, over complicated and i love it cause all the dumb ideas were my own.
> 
> (Hardest anti-lazy lesson: do not twist soft tubing to attach or remove fittings. Hose on/off first)
> ...


- Having two fill/drain ports is pretty much a must if you go that route, as water doesn't come out unless air can come in, and doing both through a single small hole at the end of a tube is a major hassle. One + QDCs (with a spare QDC set and some tubing) gives you three openings, which is even better than two, so that will work well.

- Rotary fittings are an absolute necessity, yes. I wouldn't even try a build without them, unless I had _tons_ of space.

- Alphacool's industrial nylon QDCs are reasonably sized. Worth considering. They still aren't _small_, and the need for enough flexibility to be able to connect and disconnect them is a consideration that is easy to miss, but I still fit three in my Meshlicious. 

- If you have a DDC that can run off of a fan header, powering that externally is pretty easy.

@tabascosauz  I'll try to give some more detailed feedback when I'm back from work


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## tabascosauz (Nov 17, 2021)

Lots of good info to take in, thanks guys. 

@Mussels for the time being I'm keeping my SGX650 around as my bench/tester PSU, and I've got a billion of those self tesr 24-pin plugs so I can run the pump off that when filling while the PC and SF750 remain off. AFAIK EK's DDC 4.2 has a PWM header and a SATA power lead? Not sure if that means I have to use both, or the PWM would be fine if I hooked up to the beefy PUMP header on my board or an Aquaero wait no I'm stupid lol, it's okay I'll have to get a sata power extension sooner or later

@Valantar I'm not sure I have anywhere in this loop that's high enough for a second fill port. The Iceman res has a fill port on the top that's supposed to be where the coolant goes on, as well as the drain port on the bottom next to the DDC, although I've never seen that one in action yet which is why I was entertaining the idea of another drain on the rad. Seems like using the drain on the res would require a lot of tilting of the PC........

If I was doing an internal EK 80FLT or 120TBE certainly would solve that problem, but fitment would be such a bitch (I'd maybe mount it horizontally hanging off the top fan bracket, and that's if I'm lucky), would prefer to keep it as last resort if I can.


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## Chrispy_ (Nov 17, 2021)

Is there really no waterblock for it, and if no - is it not worth just flipping it for a GPU that you can find a block for?


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## tabascosauz (Nov 17, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> View attachment 225509
> 
> Is there really no waterblock for it, and if no - is it not worth just flipping it for a GPU that you can find a block for?



Maybe 6 months ago I could have gotten a 3070 or 6700XT. Right now the GPU drought is real bad where I am, in-store stock reduced to a single lonely GTX 1050 Ti. At least there used to be near-MSRP 3070 Ti and 3080, and inflated 6700XT/6800XT.

There is no waterblock for it because it looks like this in case you forgot, if you manage to get past all the glue without breaking something in disassembly:



There used to be a short Corsair block that kinda works if you fold the pigtail over on itself to come out where it should have. There's a grand total of one dude on the internet that's tried this. Also a Barrow block that could potentially work.

Both blocks are discontinued. Plan is to run the 2060S as is, and upgrade to something more deserving of being in the loop maybe next year. It's just past 2 years old now.


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## Chrispy_ (Nov 17, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Maybe 6 months ago I could have gotten a 3070 or 6700XT. Right now the GPU drought is real bad where I am, in-store stock reduced to a single lonely GTX 1050 Ti. At least there used to be near-MSRP 3070 Ti and 3080, and inflated 6700XT/6800XT.
> 
> There is no waterblock for it because it looks like this in case you forgot, if you manage to get past all the glue without breaking something in disassembly:
> 
> ...


There are official RTX 2060FE/2070FE/2060SFE blocks from both Corsair and alphacool that simply leave a cutout for the power cable.
I'm well aware of this as I'm using a 2060FE myself in the HTPC until I can find a 3060Ti that's small enough to replace it.

Buying a new GPU is mad right now but If you're prepared to spend the money on a waterblock it's probably easier to sell the 2060SFE and just slap a vanilla 3060 in there for which there are ample waterblocks and plenty of very short PCB designs out on the market already. 3060 LHR cards aren't even commanding that much of a premium in the messed-up GPU market right now.


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## Valantar (Nov 17, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Polling the water crowd:
> 
> Anyone knowledgeable about building loops can check over my parts list, and help with fittings? I figure it'll be a while before I can even think about Caselabs in realistic terms, so considering that I probably won the QC lottery on my old white Cerberus it seems like a good opportunity to dip into water with a CPU-only loop (Barrow/Corsair blocks not available for 2060S/2070 FE anymore).
> 
> ...


First off, a question: what is the flow direction here? Beyond that, here's some more thorough feedback:

I don't really see the point of the extender stack in the front. Is there a specific idea behind it? That's a good place for the temp sensor though. Still, I'd just run the two tubes from the rad in similar ways - that's likely to look the cleanest anyhow. No reason to overspend on extenders that don't do anything much.
That pump-res-to-CPU connection looks tricky. If that is the inner connection on the res, that run is going to be _very_ short. Given how stiff ZMT 10/16 tubing is, you might have trouble getting it in place unless your fittings happen to line up perfectly - even a slight bend in a run that short will be difficult to do. You might want to get a double-45 fitting (or just stack two 45-degrees) to get sufficient flexibility in the angles of your tubing.
One useful trick for working with ZMT is to soak it in warm water if you're doing anything small that needs bending, as that makes it significantly softer and easier to work with. Similarly, it can be hard to get onto thick barbs or compression fittings, but wetting the inside of the tube slightly helps massively with that.
The drain valve on the bottom of the res is useful, but will require quite some tilting of the case to drain the loop, simply because it's above most of the loop.
Having another plug at the top of the res will alow water to run out the bottom of it easily, but you'll still struggle with the tilting. And tiliting a case around with open plugs in the loop can get pretty messy 
If you don't want the expense of QDCs all around, where you've added them is a good place for one - allows for relatively easy filling/draining of both the reservoir and the radiator. Remember to buy at least one more than what's in the loop if you plan to use it for filling and draining. If you want a second QDC in the loop, I would put it on the CPU-radiator line. And, as I said, Alphacool's industrial nylon QDCs are great as long as you can live with them not being entirely drip-free. Nothing a bit of paper towel can't handle, and you easily get two of those for the price of a single Koolance or other brass one.
If the CPU-res connection is too tricky, you can likely use the outer connection on the res for that and use two 45-degree fittings on res-rad tube to offset that tube slightly and clear the SO-DIMM.2 (i.e. one 45-degree angling the tube up towards the top of the case slightly, and the second then pointing it straight ahead again, but slightly higher up).
I'll find some pics of my various setups so that you can se what bending ZMT in tight quarters is like - I've struggled with it before, but have gotten more comfortable with it over time.

Edit 1: Here's my OG water setup in the H200i. (I had a loop in a define R4 before that, but it's not worth mentioning in this context.) That CPU-rear rad run you can see is quite tricky. It has a rotary 45° on the CPU block and a barb on the rad, and it was _tight_. Definitely put some uncomfortable stress on that CPU fitting to get the tubing in, but it worked. Plz ignore the anti-kink springs - I added them, but they did essentially nothing - ZMT is plenty anti-kink on its own. You can also see how that rad-GPU run bends outwards and back in to reach the GPU - that should give you some indication of the bend radii possible with this tubing.





Edit2: Here's the CPU side of my Meshy. That micro res-front rad tube bend is about as tight a bend as you'll get with ZMT without it pushing back with quite some force.





Edit3: And here's the GPU side, demonstrating what happens when you dont' have a lot of space, have QDCs, a limited amount of fittings, and a sub-optimal flow path. There isn't enough clearance between the GPU and side panel for the tubing to cross there, hence the overlong runs and general mess. I've since gotten confirmation from EK that the GPU block is bidirectional, so I'll be swapping around the inlet and outlet ports and significantly shortening the runs at some point - probably the holidays.




Edit4: Here's the H200 with the Aquanaut. As you can see, I could no longer fit the rear rad with that installed - it conflicted with the ports, and flipping it around messed with the runs too much. That CPU-GPU run is another demonstration of the bend radius of 10/16mm ZMT. It's routed that way for cleanliness + enough slack to easily connnect and disconnect. You can se I use double-stacked 45s to angle the tubing past the fans on one port.
Edit5: And apparently I forgot to paste the last image link, lol. Here goes:


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## tabascosauz (Nov 17, 2021)

Holy crap, ordered the Foundation block last night and UPS delivery is already scheduled for tomorrow evening. Meanwhile the Iceman will take two weeks...... really starting to think about EK 80FLT mounting to the top bracket.

@Valantar no real idea behind the extenders, just saw a bunch of cerberus bottom rad loops do it haha. Figured it might help with the bend if I just stack extenders. Not pretty, but the way it is right now I figure if I only use two regular fittings (+water temp) on the rad, the bend will push down on the GPU (esp. the long res-rad run).

As for flow direction, on the iceman the inlet is closest to the CPU/board and outlet is away from the board. Thinking I might have to take a chance on the SO-DIMM.2 and make the long res-rad run connect to the inlet. Should give me more room to work on the res-block bend.

You reckon it might be easier to run the tube further out a bit from the res outlet, then do a big bend back towards the block and end in a 45" fitting (do I need a swivel there too)? Not sure which is in/out on the block yet, but the acrylic top is reversible which ever way.

Not sure how I feel about the QDC if it just naturally leaks/is a significant weak point. I'm not sure why I put it in the res/rad run. I don't swap hardware at all.

Here's the main inspiration. This build was also with iceman, I'm not sure how they managed the res/CPU bend with just a 45 degree and a rotary. Also stacking extenders here, I thought double stacking might alleviate the res/rad and rad/CPU bends.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 17, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> There are official RTX 2060FE/2070FE/2060SFE blocks from both Corsair and alphacool that simply leave a cutout for the power cable.
> I'm well aware of this as I'm using a 2060FE myself in the HTPC until I can find a 3060Ti that's small enough to replace it.
> 
> Buying a new GPU is mad right now but If you're prepared to spend the money on a waterblock it's probably easier to sell the 2060SFE and just slap a vanilla 3060 in there for which there are ample waterblocks and plenty of very short PCB designs out on the market already. 3060 LHR cards aren't even commanding that much of a premium in the messed-up GPU market right now.



Can't find the alphacool block anywhere, the Corsair one is discontinued like I said. On the face of it, there's not much difference between FE and reference PCB aside from the pigtail, but if you have to hang that out the side, then what's the point of spending money to integrate it into the loop if it's just gonna look like puke?

The only other dGPU I have lying around is my GT610 for benching.


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## Valantar (Nov 18, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Holy crap, ordered the Foundation block last night and UPS delivery is already scheduled for tomorrow evening. Meanwhile the Iceman will take two weeks...... really starting to think about EK 80FLT mounting to the top bracket.
> 
> @Valantar no real idea behind the extenders, just saw a bunch of cerberus bottom rad loops do it haha. Figured it might help with the bend if I just stack extenders. Not pretty, but the way it is right now I figure if I only use two regular fittings (+water temp) on the rad, the bend will push down on the GPU (esp. the long res-rad run).
> 
> ...


Ah, I see. I think the point of the extenders is to make removing and inserting the side rad easier, as not having the tubes bend down makes them less prone to snagging and gives them a more easily accessible point of rotation. It also allows the use of rotary fittings there instead of just having the tubes clamped down to the radiator, again making it easier to shift the side rad out of the way. I'm a bit stumped by that single QDC though, as I would have assumed they would want the ability to remove the rad entirely? Though I guess there could be a second one all the way towards the rad that isn't visible in that shot. Still, unless you plan on adding a side radiator later, I would skip the extender stack.

I doubt the tubing bends will push down meaningfully on the GPU, as the stiff tubing will naturally want to bend around. It's of course possible, but I woudlnt' worry about it.

If I understand your description correctly, that does sound like an easier way of making the res-CPU run work. I'll throw together a sketch of what I think would be a sensible combination of fittings etc. in a little while.

To be clear: the Alphacool QDCs don't leak (at least in my experience), they just let out a few drops of liquid every time you disconnect them. I just wrap a sheet of paper towel around the tube while disconnecting, then give them a slight shake, as that catches everything. Drip-free ones are supposed to not even do that - AFAIK Koolance QDCs are drip free. It definitely takes this from "needs a bit of preparation and presence of mind" to "connect and disconnect at will, no worries", so that's potentially an advantage for people who often make changes to their loops, but if not (like in my case), I don't see 1-2ml of liquid escaping as a problem (and getting Koolance QDCs where I am is _not_ easy). It's still _miles_ better than needing to drain the loop for every little thing, and I've had a lot of luck using my spare res and pump for filling. Your Iceman res does give you some advantages I lack, but I would still recommend a secondary fill/drain point, and QDCs are far better for that than any splitter+ball valve setup (as those take a lot of space).

To be clear, all angled fittings should be rotary fittings unless you have a _very_ specific use case - non-rotary angled fittings essentially end up pointing in random directions depending on the threading, which is hardly ideal.

Do you have a link to any more pics of that build? I'm curious about the CPU-res run as well (and I don't quite understand where the res is, given that rear fan? Is it just blowing straight into the acrylic part of the res?). Looks tight enough that compression fittings are essentially a requirement, but it looks like things lined up nicely for them.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 18, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Ah, I see. I think the point of the extenders is to make removing and inserting the side rad easier, as not having the tubes bend down makes them less prone to snagging and gives them a more easily accessible point of rotation.
> 
> I doubt the tubing bends will push down meaningfully on the GPU, as the stiff tubing will naturally want to bend around. It's of course possible, but I woudlnt' worry about it.
> 
> If I understand your description correctly, that does sound like an easier way of making the res-CPU run work. I'll throw together a sketch of what I think would be a sensible combination of fittings etc. in a little while.



Realized I will need an offset fitting for res/rad run because the SO-DIMM.2 does get in the way. Fortunately it's not that big and the inlet/outlet already sit 20-30mm above the GPU. But that creates an issue in that wouldn't the entire tube just want to fall back down onto the SO-DIMM.2 instead of staying offset (to the north) as it should be? 

I thought about it a bit more and I don't think I have the room to make a huge about-face on the res/CPU run - ie. to have it go past the block then come back diagonally into the 45° on the block. But seeing as the res/CPU tube will be on the outside, there might be a chance to run it through a 90° straight up to the 45° on the CPU. Eyeballing it, the angles look close, and the swivel on the 90° might do the trick.

Still working on the layout of the rad side, but how's this:







Valantar said:


> To be clear: the Alphacool QDCs don't leak (at least in my experience), they just let out a few drops of liquid every time you disconnect them. I just wrap a sheet of paper towel around the tube while disconnecting, then give them a slight shake, as that catches everything. Drip-free ones are supposed to not even do that - AFAIK Koolance QDCs are drip free. It definitely takes this from "needs a bit of preparation and presence of mind" to "connect and disconnect at will, no worries", so that's potentially an advantage for people who often make changes to their loops, but if not (like in my case), I don't see 1-2ml of liquid escaping as a problem (and getting Koolance QDCs where I am is _not_ easy). It's still _miles_ better than needing to drain the loop for every little thing, and I've had a lot of luck using my spare res and pump for filling. Your Iceman res does give you some advantages I lack, but I would still recommend a secondary fill/drain point, and QDCs are far better for that than any splitter+ball valve setup (as those take a lot of space).



Okay that's fine then. I'm starting to think I could benefit from just having 2 QDCs on the two longest runs across the GPU, so that if I ever need to do anything in the GPU/bottom of case area, or need to do anything with the fans/rad I have the space to do it.



Valantar said:


> To be clear, all angled fittings should be rotary fittings unless you have a _very_ specific use case - non-rotary angled fittings essentially end up pointing in random directions depending on the threading, which is hardly ideal.



Yeah, non-rotating angled fittings sounded about as mindbogglingly stupid in my mind, but sleep-deprived me wanted to be sure  



Valantar said:


> Do you have a link to any more pics of that build? I'm curious about the CPU-res run as well (and I don't quite understand where the res is, given that rear fan? Is it just blowing straight into the acrylic part of the res?). Looks tight enough that compression fittings are essentially a requirement, but it looks like things lined up nicely for them.



The res is supposed to be directly mounted to the case, but he's done something custom and installed both it and the fans on some really long screws or something. So the res is like an inch off the back of the case, so the 92mm can exhaust out. So far I don't see a need to have a fan there, the 92mm there in any M1 layout case doesn't do much except maybe help out an air cooler a little.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 18, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> There are official RTX 2060FE/2070FE/2060SFE blocks from both Corsair and alphacool that simply leave a cutout for the power cable.
> I'm well aware of this as I'm using a 2060FE myself in the HTPC until I can find a 3060Ti that's small enough to replace it.
> 
> Buying a new GPU is mad right now but If you're prepared to spend the money on a waterblock it's probably easier to sell the 2060SFE and just slap a vanilla 3060 in there for which there are ample waterblocks and plenty of very short PCB designs out on the market already. 3060 LHR cards aren't even commanding that much of a premium in the messed-up GPU market right now.



Turns out Google isn't omnipotent yet - found both the Alphacool block and Corsair block on PPCS. I have to have a good think about this though, this late into its life. Trying to keep it simple for a first effort. Not sure I stand to gain too much from putting it under water, probably won't move it up a segment in performance.

The Bitspower block is VERY tempting though


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## Mussels (Nov 18, 2021)

God, those alphacool disconnects are $15 USD but $45Au.
No wonder i never looked at them.


Oh and the reason behind using the USB-Sata adaptor is safety: with a 12V 2A brick, i'm at 24W of danger. Not 650W or whatever the spare PSU is.


I'm now even looking at Bykski quick disconnects... they may be a cheap option for you, too.


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## Chrispy_ (Nov 18, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Not sure I stand to gain too much from putting it under water, probably won't move it up a segment in performance.
> 
> The Bitspower block is VERY tempting though


This. 

Watercooling the 2060S is academic at this point, the only advantage is that it'll let you build the loop for GPU watercooling _now_, which makes life less of a headache when you do eventually replace the 2060S.


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## Valantar (Nov 18, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Realized I will need an offset fitting for res/rad run because the SO-DIMM.2 does get in the way. Fortunately it's not that big and the inlet/outlet already sit 20-30mm above the GPU. But that creates an issue in that wouldn't the entire tube just want to fall back down onto the SO-DIMM.2 instead of staying offset (to the north) as it should be?
> 
> I thought about it a bit more and I don't think I have the room to make a huge about-face on the res/CPU run - ie. to have it go past the block then come back diagonally into the 45° on the block. But seeing as the res/CPU tube will be on the outside, there might be a chance to run it through a 90° straight up to the 45° on the CPU. Eyeballing it, the angles look close, and the swivel on the 90° might do the trick.
> 
> ...


Is the outside fitting on the Iceman res above the top of the SO-DIMM.2? If not, then your proposed layout will still conflict with it.

Anyhow, I made a quick sketch of how I would attempt this. Please note: I have so far never successfully planned a loop; my tubing runs and routing _always_ end up changing. But this is my current best guess at something that might work:




Some of my reasoning:
CPU-res connection: A single rotary fitting gives you some flexibility in routing (can point down towars the socket or be angled more upwards for a larger curvature), while not having two saves you from needing to match up their angles. This run will bend quite sharply, and the perspective of my sketch makes it look _much_ longer than it will be. But it should be doable. Not having a rotary fitting on the CPU also makes it easier to install, as you'll have a more secure base to push the tubing onto. Install sequence: tube on the rotary fitting first, bend as needed, then  onto the CPU. Be mindful that adjusting the length of tubing will help you adjust the bend radius as well. Cut a bit longer than you think you need, then adjust as necessary. I would use compression fittings here for additional security.
Res-rad connection: Using two 45-degrees creates less of a flow restriction than using an offset fitting, but either will work, and this isn't a very restrictive loop anyway. The offset fitting will likely hold the tubing more in place (i.e. prevent it from sagging down onto the GPU/SO-DIMM.2), but they should be functionally the same. Either should let you get past the SO.DIMM.2 easily.
The CPU-rad connection is identical to your sketch.

Using two QDCs like that sounds like a good idea. That way you can easily remove your radiator for access to parts, or just for draining/cleaning, as rads are by far the most difficult part to drain. You also get a straight shot out of both the reservoir and CPU block for draining those. Protip: fill and bleed your radiator outside of the case. Those are always where the most air gets stuck, and with QDCs you can pull it out, fill it, shake it around to get the air out without having to shake the whole PC around, then put it back in once done. Really convenient!

Also, QDCs obviously let you add a GPU to the loop relatively easily later on.

Oh, and one additional advantage of the Alphacool nylon QDCs: they're obviously non-conductive, so there's no risk of them shorting out anything if they touch, nor is there any chance of them scratching other parts.

The ones I have have G1/4 female threads on both ends, but there is also a variant with male threads if you want to screw them directly into something (like the radiator). Could save you a couple of fittings that way, and you'd kind of get your extender stack back, just made of QDCs  If you go that route, one male + two female should get you what you need: one male threaded for each radiator port, and matching female threaded parts for adding fittings and connecting to tubing.


Mussels said:


> God, those alphacool disconnects are $15 USD but $45Au.
> No wonder i never looked at them.


Whoa, that's crazy. Regional price differences can be all over the place, sadly. Koolance isn't particularly expensive in the US, while here in Europe they're seemingly made from unobtainium, and a single part (i.e. half of an actual QDC) costs more than those Alphacool ones.


tabascosauz said:


> Turns out Google isn't omnipotent yet - found both the Alphacool block and Corsair block on PPCS. I have to have a good think about this though, this late into its life. Trying to keep it simple for a first effort. Not sure I stand to gain too much from putting it under water, probably won't move it up a segment in performance.
> 
> The Bitspower block is VERY tempting though


Hey, if you _really_ want a water cooled GPU you can have my old Fury X for cheap


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## tabascosauz (Nov 18, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Res-rad connection: Using two 45-degrees creates less of a flow restriction than using an offset fitting, but either will work, and this isn't a very restrictive loop anyway. The offset fitting will likely hold the tubing more in place (i.e. prevent it from sagging down onto the GPU/SO-DIMM.2), but they should be functionally the same. Either should let you get past the SO.DIMM.2 easily.
> The CPU-rad connection is identical to your sketch.



After thinking more about it, I probably only need the medium or even small offset EK fitting, because the inlet tube already *almost* clears the SO-DIMM.2. Don't think the massive offset of 2 x 45° will be necessary.

The outlet tube is well clear of the SO-DIMM.2 and will not be an issue regardless of how I route the res-CPU run.

Or, alternatively, if I opt for the horseshoe bend below per Optimumtech, I could run the CPU block to the inlet instead so it's closer to the board and basically is what OT does. Then, the res-rad run would require no offset fitting at all because it doesn't have an issue with the SO-DIMM.2.



Valantar said:


> Is the outside fitting on the Iceman res above the top of the SO-DIMM.2? If not, then your proposed layout will still conflict with it.
> 
> Anyhow, I made a quick sketch of how I would attempt this. Please note: I have so far never successfully planned a loop; my tubing runs and routing _always_ end up changing. But this is my current best guess at something that might work:



Man, that's a sweet diagram. Thanks for making one  

I think Optimumtech makes a horseshoe shaped loop up and back down into a 90° on the CPU block actually. Not sure how I didn't notice this. He uses the X570 Impact as well so the socket placement is the same. Dare I say, the 180° bend has a bit more character than the other options. Cerberus is similar but a little bit bigger than M1 in every dimension that matters, so I think it might be doable.


 





Valantar said:


> Hey, if you _really_ want a water cooled GPU you can have my old Fury X for cheap



 But in all seriousness, I would probably get stuck at the glued-in fan connector during disassembly, and it also has some interesting coil whine that's usually covered up by the always-on fans (it's already my second FE, the first I sent back for nauseating coil whine). Should be enough reason to prevent me from impulse buying the Bitspower block.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 19, 2021)

Welp, decided to just go for it and order most of my parts. Switched to PPCS as they seem much more reputable. A few remaining things (pump, Cryofuel and some misc and extra fittings) gonna order from EK, gotta wait for the DDC 4.2 to come back in stock first. Pray to god my Iceman res isn't getting stuck somewhere.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 26, 2021)

Parts are all arriving now in droves, just waiting on the last EK order. I think this is the layout I'll go with.

No QDCs for the time being as I just don't see myself adding a GPU in this case. If I were to do it, I think I would just put it after the CPU, replacing the current curvy stretch going into the GPU and then the rad, without changing the rest. But having seen the few Iceman Cerberus builds out there I'm definitely not willing to make my life impossible with a side rad, so GPU is probably not happening.

Questions @Mussels @Valantar @HammerON :

With new parts, do you guys usually individually rinse the block/tubing/reservoir with distilled water before you assemble?
Alternatively, would you rather fill the loop first with distilled water, leak test it, then drain and fill with Cryofuel?
Recommended procedure for pre-cleaning rads? I watched a couple of videos and tentatively decided on 4 x flush with warm diluted vinegar water, then 4 x flush with distilled water
In the future, that res will definitely be an internal res. Having to route it all the way to the back yet having to put the rad on the floor is not looking very optimized.


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## Mussels (Nov 26, 2021)

built it outside the PC first, so you can learn how the fittings work, how the pump behaves and what sorta shit goes on as you cause a dozen leaks


I had lots of gunk fluff and oddities show up in my hardware, some of it because the coolant and/or dyes i'd used were the problem

So yeah... measure twice, cut once, test your coolants and shiz cause cleanups a PITA


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## Valantar (Nov 26, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Parts are all arriving now in droves, just waiting on the last EK order. I think this is the layout I'll go with.
> 
> No QDCs for the time being as I just don't see myself adding a GPU in this case. If I were to do it, I think I would just put it after the CPU, replacing the current curvy stretch going into the GPU and then the rad, without changing the rest. But having seen the few Iceman Cerberus builds out there I'm definitely not willing to make my life impossible with a side rad, so GPU is probably not happening.
> 
> ...


The first rad I bought I never flushed - but that was in ... 2008? and I knew exactly nothing about anything. Can't remember having problems with it, so I guess I was lucky? My second rad, in 2017-ish, an EK PE, I did a simple flush with warm dilute vinegar, think I ran through it a couple of times. Did the same for the Corsair XR5 I got earlier this year. Neither had any notable amount of gunk in them, so either I got lucky or they were well flushed at the factory. It's probably a good idea to be a tad more careful than I am, as I've seen some really bad examples. Due to the relative difficulty of getting ahold of large quantities of distilled water where I live I have never, ever used that for flushing. I know the tap water where I used to live in Norway was great, but here in Skåne, Sweden it's supposed to have a ton of lime - but I've had zero problems. I refuse to believe that whatever minerals are left over in the few ml of liquid I can't get out of the loop matter whatsoever, and any algae, bacteria, or other problematic stuff are easily neutralized by the coolant. I wouldn't run a loop with tap water (perhaps for testing, not for long though), but I have zero issues using it for flushing and the like. Then again, there are no doubt places in the world with far worse tap water than where I live. Still, considering how little water will be left after a flush, I can't really imagine it actually being a problem. Those repeated flushes with distilled water sound to me like either outdated wisdom from the times when radiators were assembled in a shed and barely held together, or just plain superstition. We're at least two decades into PC water cooling, and these components are made by large companies. They should arrive reasonably clean. I would do a couple of vinegar flushes, and then run water through until you can't smell vinegar any more.

A sealed, factory-new block from any decent brand I would just install straight off the bat. If EK or someone similar sent me a dirty block, I would be pretty pissed, as that IMO is not an acceptable level of QC. The Aquanaut needed to be built, so I knew that was clean, but I never flushed my 6900 XT Liquid Devil. Radiators with their complicated solder joints and the like are ... acceptable if there's some flux and minor gunk left over. They might also have some sort of anti-corrosive added for transport and storage. Milled copper, brass, acrylic, POM, etc? Should be entirely squeaky clean, period. There is zero excuse for the factory to leave those dirty.

For the record, I've never flushed anything new in an assembled loop, as that just seems wildly unnecessary to me. Flushing individual components makes things drastically easier, and saves you from filling and draining the loop multiple times.


Not very applicable to you right now, but I've also used warm dilute vinegar to remove corrosion from that 2008 rad, which was out of commission for something like 8 years (I had a leak and got scared) and was stored in some random box with ill-fitting stop plugs, but was used in my loop with the 1600X and Fury X from 2017 till I got the Aquanaut last year. Vinegar truly does wonders in removing corrosion. It won't make things look good, as it doesn't remove the tarnish itself (you likely need abrasion for that), but it removes the insulating layers of corrosion and anything likely to flake off.

That loop layout looks good to me. Simple, clean, and reasonably easy to plumb. Compression fittings are a good choice considering that short (and potentially sharply bent) res-CPU run. I would probably think a 45 is good on the CPU-rad run, as that needs to bend outwards anyway to cross the other tube and reach the outer radiator port.


tabascosauz said:


> I think Optimumtech makes a horseshoe shaped loop up and back down into a 90° on the CPU block actually. Not sure how I didn't notice this. He uses the X570 Impact as well so the socket placement is the same. Dare I say, the 180° bend has a bit more character than the other options. Cerberus is similar but a little bit bigger than M1 in every dimension that matters, so I think it might be doable.


This is an example of something that I would only ever attempt with compression fittings. At least with my 10/16 EK ZMT, that tube would be exerting some significant force on the CPU-side fitting, and would likely wrench itself off any barb fitting in existence. I guess a barb with screw-tightened tube clamps would work as well, but those are hardly SFF-friendly. Seems you're going for compression fittings though, so that saves you that hassle. Just remember to put the outer ring onto the tubing before pushing it onto the fittings 


Oh, did you order that leak tester on your parts list btw?


What I would do, step by step, if I was building this:
- Flush the radiator. Get it as dry as is reasonable (and likely plug the ports with paper towels to avoid drips when moving stuff around).
- Flush the tubing if it seems dirty. Likely not.
- Install parts, cut tubing to length, assemble the loop, being reasonably careful to ensure that all fittings are screwed down properly and all tubing is secure.
- Leak test with air.
- Fill and bleed the loop, using an external power source for the pump.

If you don't have a leak tester, I would be _a lot_ more careful about installing everything, and then fill the loop _slowly_ while looking out for leaks, then being even more on the lookout for this as the pump is powered on and the loops is pressurized. Leak testers make this part of the process _so_ much simpler.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 27, 2021)

SUPER pissed off at EK - they pulled the FEK5B 5% off code the day before I ordered (after it being valid for like 2 years, for a week prior while I was putting together my order, it had been working every day).

By then the "Black Friday" sale was already going (promising BIG DISCOUNTS), but was really underwhelming because discounts were only on some crappy bundles. So I reached out to them via email and asked; they said it isn't coming back, and I need >$350USD to get a discount. The rep didn't say ANYTHING about the ongoing sale in our correspondence earlier this week - all of a sudden, without warning today the "Black Friday" sale evolved, and now *everything *on the site is on sale. IT'S STILL THE SAME SALE!!!!! THE BANNER AND TIMER HAVE NOT CHANGED!!!! NO WARNING WHATSOEVER!!!!

Not to mention when it came time to order, the shipping costs suddenly went up and have stayed up since, like BRUH

Not to mention that they don't have stock counters unlike any of the other watercooling stores, so trying to find the DDC 4.2 in stock is like playing a slot machine. When I ordered it said it was backordered until the 26th.....................then subsequently shipped out immediately despite being "backordered" LOL

Yeah, I get it, you want to make a quick buck from me, but are you kidding me?  The only consolation is that EK is still being stingy af and reducing their prices by like $1 on most of the items I ordered (Cryofuel down to $16 from $17.99 LOL). In the end it was only about $15 difference.

PPCS might have sent me the wrong rad, but they sent me the right one at no cost arriving within 3 days, and let me just keep the incorrect rad. And I hold them in high esteem, because of that. Maybe I should have just ponied up for some Bitspower fittings from PPCS instead, and stayed away from EKrap store entirely.



Valantar said:


> For the record, I've never flushed anything new in an assembled loop, as that just seems wildly unnecessary to me. Flushing individual components makes things drastically easier, and saves you from filling and draining the loop multiple times.



It's just the block really, I had a 90 degree on once and off once before I decided I wanted regular fittings only on the block, and there's one or two tiny bits of I'm guessing acrylic shavings in there. I'm probably just OCD, I mean they are *tiny*, size of a speck of dust. Figured maybe I could run a bit of distilled water through there once I had the two tubes on.

Water here is pretty soft (~10mg/L), but I can get 4L distilled water for $2 so it won't be a problem to pick up a few jugs of it.

I will be taking my time flushing the rad obviously, but not sure how early I want to start. The last few parts are on their way over the Atlantic now but will still be a couple of days. Is it okay to just leave the radiator out to dry after vinegar- and water-flushing it? Or just do it day of, and go right into building?



Valantar said:


> This is an example of something that I would only ever attempt with compression fittings. At least with my 10/16 EK ZMT, that tube would be exerting some significant force on the CPU-side fitting, and would likely wrench itself off any barb fitting in existence. I guess a barb with screw-tightened tube clamps would work as well, but those are hardly SFF-friendly. Seems you're going for compression fittings though, so that saves you that hassle. Just remember to put the outer ring onto the tubing before pushing it onto the fittings



Yeah, thought the U-bend was a good idea, until I actually got my hands on the block and tubing and realized it's way tighter on space than I thought it would be. Probably extra flow restriction too from 2 x 90 degrees and the fact that the tubing bends all the way back. Still, even doing the 45 degree out and regular in routing may be a bit challenging

Literally all I needed was a way to mount a 80FLT/DDC combo onto the back of the SF750, but as hard as I tried I just couldn't find anything of the sort, short of resorting to velcro (!!!!). Would have made for an easier time, undoubtedly. At least the Iceman has good build quality, got it today.

The ball valve is a REALLY tight fit on the Iceman, because unfortunately the threads end with the valve handle pointing *towards* the case. Just my luck, but it still fits. If I have any 45s left over after building the loop, i might put it on to angle the ball valve outwards.



Valantar said:


> What I would do, step by step, if I was building this:
> - Flush the radiator. Get it as dry as is reasonable (and likely plug the ports with paper towels to avoid drips when moving stuff around).
> - Flush the tubing if it seems dirty. Likely not.
> - Install parts, cut tubing to length, assemble the loop, being reasonably careful to ensure that all fittings are screwed down properly and all tubing is secure.
> ...



Yep I did buy the EK leak tester. So I will be a connecting it to the res fill port and pumping it up to 0.25-0.3bar for 15 min or so, before I consider filling the loop.


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## Mussels (Nov 27, 2021)

Wow, that's a rough experience


I mean sure, sales people likely wont wont know about upcoming deals - that's higher ups.
Stock counters, yes, they're poopy. I had weeks of waiting, and added delays.

Buuuuuuuut I've had three bottles of coolant and a new piece for my 3090 block sent out completely at their cost, when i've had issues with their products.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 27, 2021)

Whoever designed the Iceman res, hats off to you. Materials are good, tolerances are good.
Whoever assembled the Iceman res, you should know that there exist such things as nitrile gloves... 

I don't like having to disassemble a brand new res, but this is disgusting (on the inside of the res, clearly visible through the acrylic front plate):






The stainless steel backplate was completely covered in oily smudges and fingerprints. The acrylic front plate was also smudged as hell, and unfortunately all of it was on the inside surface. It was clearly just from O-ring lube, but seriously, is it really that hard to assemble this without getting your oily fingerprints all over the inside??

Fortunately, the O-rings, screws and fitment are all good and it was easy to wash off with a gentle soap wash, dry and put back together. Made sure to tighten evenly in star pattern (that automotive and manufacturing experience did come in handy after all). Probably won't be possible to leak test/verify the res alone due to the design. I guess we'll find out in due time if my reassembly was up to spec.

Looking much better now, minor scuffs more visible now, but doesn't bother me nearly as much knowing that the insides are clean:


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## Valantar (Nov 27, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Whoever designed the Iceman res, hats off to you. Materials are good, tolerances are good.
> Whoever assembled the Iceman res, you should know that there exist such things as nitrile gloves...
> 
> I don't like having to disassemble a brand new res, but this is disgusting (on the inside of the res, clearly visible through the acrylic front plate):
> ...


That's a nice looking unit! Agree on the cleanliness thing though, that's rather extreme. Also, is it actually stainless steel, and not something like nickel-plated copper? Isn't that a bit iffy in terms of galvanic corrosion? Or is stainless steel+copper not an issue? You'll definitely need the pump to leak test it - or I guess you could make a metal plate to cover that opening, plus an o-ring underneath it. Plugging the holes in any other way would be very unlikely to stand up to the pressure from the leak tester.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 27, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That's a nice looking unit! Agree on the cleanliness thing though, that's rather extreme. Also, is it actually stainless steel, and not something like nickel-plated copper? Isn't that a bit iffy in terms of galvanic corrosion? Or is stainless steel+copper not an issue? You'll definitely need the pump to leak test it - or I guess you could make a metal plate to cover that opening, plus an o-ring underneath it. Plugging the holes in any other way would be very unlikely to stand up to the pressure from the leak tester.



I'll probably see about testing the res alone when my DDC shows up. Should have enough stop plugs.

That's a good point about materials. The Iceman uses 304 stainless and acetal. I snooped around a bit and seems like consensus amongst watercooling people as well as industry/science sources is that common SS grades should not be an issue with nickel plated copper. That seems to extend to copper alone as well. From what I read there should be a couple factors in favour of this:

There's corrosion inhibitors in our premixed fluids. Probably why warranty is usually broken when running pure distilled.
From a few different charts, SS 304 and nickel/copper alloys are relatively close on galvanic potential.
All the charts assume seawater as an electrolyte which is very corrosive, so we should be safer.
SS/copper/brass seem to be a favourite pairing in water heating and don't usually suffer corrosion. Often in direct contact. And that's with potable water which is obviously more corrosive, and higher temps as well.
Allegedly, the galvanic potential chart doesn't tell the whole story as to corrosion, so all the votes of confidence in copper+SS should mean something?
There is often a small gap in potential between nickel and copper, not far from the gap with SS, but they aren't an issue together as long as there's corrosion inhibitor.
Allegedly, there are already stainless steel parts in pumps that make contact with the coolant.
I'm skeptical to believe EK, but Cryofuel claims to protect SS and even aluminium (!!).
I guess we'll see. Definitely will be keeping a close eye on it.

However, EK warns against even leak testing with pure distilled with nickel in the loop. Whether this is marketing-speak for Cryofuel or actual science, no idea. Cryofuel seems to use 2-EHA as corrosion inhibitor - not a chemist so couldn't find much, 2-EHA doesn't seem to have a good reputation in automotive circles from allegedly damaging anything with silicone in it, but afaik EPDM isn't/shouldnt contain silicone?


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## tabascosauz (Nov 29, 2021)

Valantar said:


> The first rad I bought I never flushed - but that was in ... 2008? and I knew exactly nothing about anything. Can't remember having problems with it, so I guess I was lucky? My second rad, in 2017-ish, an EK PE, I did a simple flush with warm dilute vinegar, think I ran through it a couple of times. Did the same for the Corsair XR5 I got earlier this year. Neither had any notable amount of gunk in them, so either I got lucky or they were well flushed at the factory. It's probably a good idea to be a tad more careful than I am, as I've seen some really bad examples.



So uhhhhh  all of this crap came out of the first flush, but evidently it wasn't done with me yet





After 4 flushes, most of the stuff was in the bucket, but a small and frustrating stream of tiny specks was still coming out:





After 11 flushes (4 x vinegar, 2 x water, 1 x vinegar, 5 x water) it was finally done.


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## Mussels (Nov 29, 2021)

when I first used vinegar in mine i was worried i'd like damaged something, or the vinegar CAUSED the problems

I ended up getting one of the in-line filters when i do the flushing now (and anytime i drain the loop), if the vinegars got go chunks in the soup, you can re-use it! woo!
(Initially i ran the loop without the CPU or GPU Connected, but with the filter - so all i had to do was clean the filter after a few hours)

Then i added a new rad without flushing and ruined it all, but anyway!


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## Valantar (Nov 29, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> So uhhhhh  all of this crap came out of the first flush, but evidently it wasn't done with me yet
> 
> View attachment 226989
> 
> ...


Wow! That's pretty terrible. Not that a single sample is necessarily representative, but that doesn't make me very optimistic towards the QC of Alphacool's radiators. That blue colour is also a clear sign of corrosion. Any idea what the black specks are? Solder? Paint? Just random gunk? At least the last flush looks nice and clean!


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## Mussels (Nov 29, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Wow! That's pretty terrible. Not that a single sample is necessarily representative, but that doesn't make me very optimistic towards the QC of Alphacool's radiators. That blue colour is also a clear sign of corrosion. Any idea what the black specks are? Solder? Paint? Just random gunk? At least the last flush looks nice and clean!


Bruh, google photos doesn't understand terms like "blue gunky shit that broke my waterblock" so this took a while to find, but if you think his is bad...

This was my brand new 3090 EK block








she cleaned up fine, and EK replaced the tiny plastic in the middle that cracked during cleaning for free. If you ask nicely for spare parts, they're REALLY good with that (just slow, cause so far away)






Tabasco: lemme know if you think i'm thread hijacking, i feel its relevant as a warning of how bad it can get, but its your build log

I think the vinegar loosened things up, and those loose bits eventually came off and bound to the coolant (EK mystic fog) which then just... stuck everywhere.

Custom water is love. But love requires lots of vinegar and washing, apparently.


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## Valantar (Nov 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Bruh, google photos doesn't understand terms like "blue gunky shit that broke my waterblock" so this took a while to find, but if you think his is bad...
> 
> This was my brand new 3090 EK block
> View attachment 226992
> ...


Wow, that's _bad_. Where did that stuff come from? Clearly not the nickel-plated block, so I'm guessing your rad(s)? I'm glad I've never seen anything like that - heck, my old 120mm that was carelessly stored for 8 years or so didn't give off nearly that much gunk. This is what my Fury X looked like after running for about four years without a clean, just two fluid swaps and one or two flushes at the same time (most of that time running with ye olde 120mm as part of the loop):


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## tabascosauz (Nov 29, 2021)

Do you all think a 45mm 280mm is enough for a 2060 Super and a 5900X? REALLY thinking about the Bitspower FE block, but don't want to have to jam in an extra 92mm or 120mm rad, and don't have room for another 240mm/280mm without modding.

Might try to see how high I can push PPT for the 5900X (trying all-core ONCE scared the SHIT out of me), but there's not much headroom on the 2060 Super except for undervolting. Reference VRM is weak so headroom without shunt modding is suitably low.



Mussels said:


> when I first used vinegar in mine i was worried i'd like damaged something, or the vinegar CAUSED the problems
> 
> I ended up getting one of the in-line filters when i do the flushing now (and anytime i drain the loop), if the vinegars got go chunks in the soup, you can re-use it! woo!
> (Initially i ran the loop without the CPU or GPU Connected, but with the filter - so all i had to do was clean the filter after a few hours)
> ...



I shook that rad like my life depended on it x11, I sure hope there won't be any more particulate crap coming out. The Aquacomputer filter with the dual ball valves looks nice but would probably cause me anxiety over flow restriction so I wouldn't relax unless I had double D5s lol



Mussels said:


> Bruh, google photos doesn't understand terms like "blue gunky shit that broke my waterblock" so this took a while to find, but if you think his is bad...
> 
> This was my brand new 3090 EK block
> she cleaned up fine, and EK replaced the tiny plastic in the middle that cracked during cleaning for free. If you ask nicely for spare parts, they're REALLY good with that (just slow, cause so far away)



Dayum, beautiful transformation. That's what scares me about radiators - you can see the corrosion on the nickel on blocks, but it's all hidden inside the radiator. Flush a lot and let Jesus take the wheel, I guess.

It's easy to see the fins on the Optimus block, so I guess I'll keep a close eye on it. 



Mussels said:


> Tabasco: lemme know if you think i'm thread hijacking, i feel its relevant as a warning of how bad it can get, but its your build log



No problem at all bro. Everything constructive and friendly is welcome  



Valantar said:


> Wow! That's pretty terrible. Not that a single sample is necessarily representative, but that doesn't make me very optimistic towards the QC of Alphacool's radiators. That blue colour is also a clear sign of corrosion. Any idea what the black specks are? Solder? Paint? Just random gunk? At least the last flush looks nice and clean!



I wasn't expecting the blue tint either, didn't really know what it was. I have no idea how much is still left in there - the blue bucket is the combined efforts of 4 vinegar flushes, and the other vinegar flush was by itself so won't show blue. And I reckon the water flushes won't bring out much corrosion. 

The particulates were all over the board. There were one or two that almost looked like thin wire (I saw it in a video about flushing too), then a lot of orange-ish specks, black specks, etc.

I should mention though..................the bucket itself is not white, it's baby blue. And I expect my Godox light to be doing some funky things to that terrible phone quality picture too.


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## Mussels (Nov 29, 2021)

Mine was a second hand rad, and being a fool

The gunk found hiding spots and survived many, many flushes


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## tabascosauz (Nov 29, 2021)

getting this chonker into the case sucked so much ass


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## Valantar (Nov 29, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Do you all think a 45mm 280mm is enough for a 2060 Super and a 5900X? REALLY thinking about the Bitspower FE block, but don't want to have to jam in an extra 92mm or 120mm rad, and don't have room for another 240mm/280mm without modding.


Yes, without a sliver of doubt. After all, I am cooling a 5800X + 6900 XT on a 30mm-thick 280mm Corsair XR5 (apparently a HWL OEM design) with Arctic P14s. It does absolutly get a bit toasty under load even with the fans at full speed (a reported ~1560rpm), but nothing I'm worried about. I think the highest I saw this summer was fluid temperatures in the mid-40s during stress testing, that was with ambients in the low 30s (no AC, apartment gets _hot_ in the summer). My CPU could get into the 80s, but that's due to the Aquanaut being a mediocre water block + running low pump speeds + the 5800X being a 5800X (it's much better after a but of Curve Optimizer!). My daily UV/UC profile on the GPU limits it to ~190W, so that should be comparable to your 2060s, and with that active my fluid temperatures dont' even come close to the 40°C mark in regular usage. I don't think I've ever seen the GPU exceed 60 even at full power, typically it's much, much lower. Mind you, I never tested that in 30-degree ambient temperatures, but it's still a massive reduction.


tabascosauz said:


> I shook that rad like my life depended on it x11, I sure hope there won't be any more particulate crap coming out. The Aquacomputer filter with the dual ball valves looks nice but would probably cause me anxiety over flow restriction so I wouldn't relax unless I had double D5s lol





Mussels said:


> Mine was a second hand rad, and being a fool
> 
> The gunk found hiding spots and survived many, many flushes


I guess it's worth mentioning that after moving to the Aquanaut I have a spare EK-SPC pump/res combo, which I now use for filling, bleeding, flushing, etc. just hooking it up with a spare set of QDCs. For corrosion treatments I've filled the loop with vinegar (the stuff they have in large bottles at the store is 12%, I've both used it straight and diluted it further) and left it to run for a while, even overnight, which seems effective. It's fun to watch the vinegar in the res slowly turn that teal-blue colour  That 120mm rad has also had a couple of overnight soaks in vinegar. It still looks rather terrible when looking inside the ports, but it works fine. Of course shaking is still useful for getting things to come loose - there isn't enough pressure in that pump to skip that. Ideally I would have a filter in the loop as well, but ... well, I don't  My main mode of flushing when changing fluid these days involves two buckets, one full and one empty: intake hose into the full bucket, outlet hose into the empty bucket (make sure the intake hose isn't full of air), let the pump(s) run. Empty the waste bucket when necessary, rinse (literally), repeat. Gotta love having QDCs 


tabascosauz said:


> I wasn't expecting the blue tint either, didn't really know what it was. I have no idea how much is still left in there - the blue bucket is the combined efforts of 4 vinegar flushes, and the other vinegar flush was by itself so won't show blue. And I reckon the water flushes won't bring out much corrosion.


They won't unless it's been dissolved sufficiently by the vinegar to come loose - that's really the main purpose of the water flushes, to get any kind of gunk and particulate out (as well as leftover chemicals). Tbh, however much corrosion is left in the rad is likely perfectly fine. As long as the loop is filled it won't corrode further, and it takes _a lot_ of corrosion in a radiator to harm its performance or cause leaks, so it's not a big deal. The flushing you've done has likely taken out all the superficial stuff and might have improved thermal transfer a bit, which is all you can really ask for.


tabascosauz said:


> The particulates were all over the board. There were one or two that almost looked like thin wire (I saw it in a video about flushing too), then a lot of orange-ish specks, black specks, etc.


I'd expect most of that to be solder from the radiator assembly process, but probably also flux residue, possibly some copper specks from machining, etc. The most important part is that you've gotten it to the point where there isn't visible gunk coming out.


tabascosauz said:


> I should mention though..................the bucket itself is not white, it's baby blue. And I expect my Godox light to be doing some funky things to that terrible phone quality picture too.


White balance in stuff like this is always tricky. That last flush still looks perfectly clean though.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 30, 2021)

Man, I wasn't expecting this much of a difference on the CPU alone compared to the C14S.

When just booting up there's not much that changes. I guess Windows throws a crap ton at the CPU when it starts up, so when I first open HWInfo it still peaks at 59C or so (before it was 60-61C). But lo and behold - 12C improvement in MW2019, 11C improvement in Insurgency Sandstorm, 5-8C improvement in Genshin. CPU-Z Bench was 8-9C better, CPU-Z stress was at about 12C cooler but it also takes so long to reach thermal equilibrium that I didn't have the patience to keep waiting.

ST performance is unchanged - I'm already maxed out on core quality. MT performance is kinda crazy though, the clocks just sit there and never drop 

Coolant temps hanging out in the 25-30C range, highest I saw was 31C I think. After bleeding the loop for about 30 minutes then using the PC for about 2 hours, I had stopped hearing the popping sounds from air bubbles and the Foundation block is completely free of bubbles. There's still a shit ton of tiny bubbles in my res though, and quite a bit of steam(?) at the top as well.

Running the DDC 4.2 @ 25-30% PWM I think, and the A14s at about 950rpm (silent until about 1050rpm). Above 30% it's not buzzy at all, but it is a little bit high pitched and whiny. Not really noisy though, it's a nice unit.

Unfortunately GPU temps are up about 2.5C, and I am completely cooking my RAM and one of my NVMes (I suspect the SN750 is on the bottom of the SO-DIMM.2). The NF-A9 mounted to the top panel doesn't seem to do a whole lot, so I may have to put the side bracket back on there with the NF-A14 and run it at low speed.

Makes me wonder how much I stand to gain by waterblocking the GPU. Theoretically I could push higher clocks from running much cooler, but my perfcap is almost exclusively Power so something tells me clocks won't change at all when at 99% GPU usage.


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## tabascosauz (Dec 1, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Yes, without a sliver of doubt. After all, I am cooling a 5800X + 6900 XT on a 30mm-thick 280mm Corsair XR5 (apparently a HWL OEM design) with Arctic P14s. It does absolutly get a bit toasty under load even with the fans at full speed (a reported ~1560rpm), but nothing I'm worried about. I think the highest I saw this summer was fluid temperatures in the mid-40s during stress testing, that was with ambients in the low 30s (no AC, apartment gets _hot_ in the summer). My CPU could get into the 80s, but that's due to the Aquanaut being a mediocre water block + running low pump speeds + the 5800X being a 5800X (it's much better after a but of Curve Optimizer!). My daily UV/UC profile on the GPU limits it to ~190W, so that should be comparable to your 2060s, and with that active my fluid temperatures dont' even come close to the 40°C mark in regular usage. I don't think I've ever seen the GPU exceed 60 even at full power, typically it's much, much lower. Mind you, I never tested that in 30-degree ambient temperatures, but it's still a massive reduction.



You reckon it's still doable without going push-pull? I checked and the Brizo block makes it a single-slot card, so I can still put my 2000rpm A14s on pull. Only problems there are: once the fans go in, they can literally never come out again without disassembling half of the loop (well, not like the push fans and the rad can do that even now, so maybe not a big deal); I can't run the fittings to come out below the block because there's no clearance (if I run the fittings above the block then I'll have to find a 120mm [slim?] fan for the side swing bracket instead).

The Bitspower seems to be the only option but I hate having the RGB connector dangling that I can't remove. The Bykski block isn't even the same as what's advertised on Bykski's website and looks cheap, and the Corsair block is of the infamous leaky design that lacks the centre screw. Also HORRIBLE instructions for installation, my guess is I'll have to be solely relying on GN's teardown video.

But no choice, I dug myself into this hole. The way it's running right now the GPU is literally going through torture. Gonna need to put it in the loop. Maybe then I can turn the side bracket fan around as intake (currently it's exhaust, because intake benefits the RAM a little bit, but the GPU suffers terribly).

The Bitspower block does reuse the thick FE backplate though, which is a good thing - it's gorgeous, built like a tank and pretty much unbendable.



Valantar said:


> For corrosion treatments I've filled the loop with vinegar (the stuff they have in large bottles at the store is 12%, I've both used it straight and diluted it further) and left it to run for a while, even overnight, which seems effective.



Would that vinegar harm the pump or O-rings? Not like I have an extra pump though so it's just a theoretical.


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## Mussels (Dec 1, 2021)

I think vinegar might harm things long term

If i was storing, it'd be dry with no caps on, or filled with distilled and a growth inhibitor (basically, regular coolant mix) and sealed up


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## Valantar (Dec 1, 2021)

Mussels said:


> I think vinegar might harm things long term
> 
> If i was storing, it'd be dry with no caps on, or filled with distilled and a growth inhibitor (basically, regular coolant mix) and sealed up


Mostly agree, though dry with no caps on sounds like an invitation for ambient moisture to cause corrosion. (And, for you Oystralians, some type of deadly creepy-crawly to move in.) I'd probably see if I could fit some kind of desiccant in there (one of those silica gel sachets?) and seal it up.


tabascosauz said:


> You reckon it's still doable without going push-pull? I checked and the Brizo block makes it a single-slot card, so I can still put my 2000rpm A14s on pull. Only problems there are: once the fans go in, they can literally never come out again without disassembling half of the loop (well, not like the push fans and the rad can do that even now, so maybe not a big deal); I can't run the fittings to come out below the block because there's no clearance (if I run the fittings above the block then I'll have to find a 120mm [slim?] fan for the side swing bracket instead).


I doubt a 45mm rad is restrictive enough to really warrant push-pull, though that of course depends on your fans and your threshold for acceptable noise levels. My P14s certainly aren't silent at full speed - but even with open-backed headphones they aren't ever intrusive.


tabascosauz said:


> Would that vinegar harm the pump or O-rings? Not like I have an extra pump though so it's just a theoretical.


I have no idea, but just to be safe I would assume so, at least over time. I wouldn't leave the loop running a vinegar solution over time at least. I haven't seen anything after my overnight flushes (and I have torn down a couple of parts with large o-rings a while after they have had relatively long vinegar soaks), but it's entirely possible. Having some o-ring lube on hand is probably not a bad idea.


----------



## tabascosauz (Dec 1, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Mostly agree, though dry with no caps on sounds like an invitation for ambient moisture to cause corrosion. (And, for you Oystralians, some type of deadly creepy-crawly to move in.) I'd probably see if I could fit some kind of desiccant in there (one of those silica gel sachets?) and seal it up.
> 
> I doubt a 45mm rad is restrictive enough to really warrant push-pull, though that of course depends on your fans and your threshold for acceptable noise levels. My P14s certainly aren't silent at full speed - but even with open-backed headphones they aren't ever intrusive.
> 
> I have no idea, but just to be safe I would assume so, at least over time. I wouldn't leave the loop running a vinegar solution over time at least. I haven't seen anything after my overnight flushes (and I have torn down a couple of parts with large o-rings a while after they have had relatively long vinegar soaks), but it's entirely possible. Having some o-ring lube on hand is probably not a bad idea.



Yeah, mine is about the same as your XR5. Yours is 16 FPI, I think mine is 15 FPI although thicker. I didn't imagine I'd ever want to go up to 2000rpm so I left my iPPCs out and used the Chromax A14s. Running them at 950rpm ish, the noise isn't intrusive at all but at about 1050-1100rpm I start really hearing them through my headphones.

Although, I see you are just pulling air through the radiator - my A14s have to pull air through the bottom of the case (vented but big holes) and then push it through the rad. Any noticeable difference there?

I was using my non-IP67 A14-2000 on the side panel to pull air out of the case along with a A9 on the top panel. It was way too loud with the side panel off, not sure how I put up with two of them for all this time  so I thought to break out my old TJ08 and take the 120mm Silent Wings 3 out of there and mount it on the side panel instead. Much better for the job, it runs at almost max speed without making audible noise over the other components, and pushes enough air for my needs here. Granted, it's not up against any restriction (which seems to kill SW3's performance), but much better than my past experiences with it.

I'll make a mockup of the two routing possibilities shortly for the GPU block.


----------



## Valantar (Dec 1, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Yeah, mine is about the same as your XR5. Yours is 16 FPI, I think mine is 15 FPI although thicker. I didn't imagine I'd ever want to go up to 2000rpm so I left my iPPCs out and used the Chromax A14s. Running them at 950rpm ish, the noise isn't intrusive at all but at about 1050-1100rpm I start really hearing them through my headphones.
> 
> Although, I see you are just pulling air through the radiator - my A14s have to pull air through the bottom of the case (vented but big holes) and then push it through the rad. Any noticeable difference there?


Good question. Of course my setup is also pulling air through the perforated front panel of the Meshlicious, which no doubt adds some restriction even being a very open micro-mesh. I've never really tested it with the front panel off, that might be interesting. Of course, I also let my fans ramp up to full speed (~1600rpm) under heavier loads, though I'm thinking of tuning my fan curve a bit to see what thermal changes a drop to ~1300rpm would cause, as that would be very noticeably quieter.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jan 22, 2022)

Been a little while, let's kick off 2022 with some new ideas:

What do you y'all think about the Thermaltake P3 as a pseudo-testbench style case? Been eyeing the white version for $169 canuckistan pesos. I wanted to wait for Caselabs but I guess I finally realized that the inevitable length of the wait really began to sink in.

Really not happy with a lot of things in the Cerberus/X. Loops are certainly very doable (just look at all the loops out there!), just not in a way that is even remotely easily serviceable.
The P1 would be the first choice but it only supports up to 240mm rads so it's a no-go.
The P3 offers so much options (vertical or horizontal PSU, vertical riser or traditional GPU, 2 mounting locations for a 280mm rad, side panel or no side panel, vertical orientation or horizontal testbench, etc), I can't envision how I might configure it yet. But I should be able to cut out a whole bunch of 90 degree fittings from my rig, especially if I take the glass panel off and just do big natural tubing arcs.
I'm not seeing any real compatibility issues, just that I have to buy a new res for my DDC, and I need a new ATX-length cable kit for my SF750 (from the looks of it they're all Type 4, so this kit should work: white Corsair barebones kit). I don't know what res might be good to pair with a DDC though - if it was a D5 I would automatically get an Optimus system, but I want to keep this whisper quiet DDC.

I guess I wanted to stick to premium cases, but this one certainly is a head-turner and has gotten pretty decent reviews, and looks unconventional while being what I need.

Also might take the opportunity to clean out my CPU block (some assorted gunk in there), as well as switch to a Mayhems clear coolant. I'm not sure I trust EK anymore, Cryofuel has been depositing this thin almost oily foggy residue on the inside of the res. Nothing gunky, nothing major, but not something that should be there.


----------



## freeagent (Jan 22, 2022)

Looks sweet man, I'd hit it


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## Mussels (Jan 23, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Also might take the opportunity to clean out my CPU block (some assorted gunk in there), as well as switch to a Mayhems clear coolant. I'm not sure I trust EK anymore, Cryofuel has been depositing this thin almost oily foggy residue on the inside of the res. Nothing gunky, nothing major, but not something that should be there.


I'm seeing that same residue

I've also had some bad runs with EK coolant, who were also my first coolant choice - so i wasnt sure whats normal and whats product faults


----------



## tabascosauz (Jan 23, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I'm seeing that same residue
> 
> I've also had some bad runs with EK coolant, who were also my first coolant choice - so i wasnt sure whats normal and whats product faults



Most of the residue comes off easily, but the stuff that accumulates at the water level in the res never really comes off. I had the res apart and scrubbing gently with microfiber and dish soap, everything else comes out sparkly clean but the oil at the water level line is still easily visible after cleaning. 

Disappointing since according to the label there should only be distilled water and a tiny bit of 2EHA in Cryofuel. 

I have never heard anything bad about Mayhems, so I was looking at their X1 v2 clear. Koolance 702 came up sometimes in forum threads as well.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 23, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Most of the residue comes off easily, but the stuff that accumulates at the water level in the res never really comes off. I had the res apart and scrubbing gently with microfiber and dish soap, everything else comes out sparkly clean but the oil at the water level line is still easily visible after cleaning.
> 
> Disappointing since according to the label there should only be distilled water and a tiny bit of 2EHA in Cryofuel.
> 
> I have never heard anything bad about Mayhems, so I was looking at their X1 v2 clear. Koolance 702 came up sometimes in forum threads as well.


I can only get EK, corsair and thermaltake locally*

(Online in my state for lower shipping, as physical stores are a total zero for custom water here)


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## tabascosauz (Jan 23, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Looks sweet man, I'd hit it



Damn you, you know I cave easily  

Done:

Thermaltake P3 in white, arriving Feb 1
To do:

Longer cables for SF750
New choice of coolant
New choice of reservoir (Heatkiller Tube 100?)
Clean CPU block
[Clean GPU block?]
Thoroughly flush all reusable and new ZMT lengths with water
Anyhow, even if I don't migrate the build immediately, I thought it prudent to pick up a P3 for now. Literally zero other reasonably priced testbench solutions easily compatible with watercooling out there, may as well pick up a P3 while it's in stock and get rid of the crappy dimastech bench


----------



## Valantar (Jan 23, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I'm not sure I trust EK anymore, Cryofuel has been depositing this thin almost oily foggy residue on the inside of the res. Nothing gunky, nothing major, but not something that should be there.





tabascosauz said:


> Most of the residue comes off easily, but the stuff that accumulates at the water level in the res never really comes off. I had the res apart and scrubbing gently with microfiber and dish soap, everything else comes out sparkly clean but the oil at the water level line is still easily visible after cleaning.
> 
> Disappointing since according to the label there should only be distilled water and a tiny bit of 2EHA in Cryofuel.
> 
> I have never heard anything bad about Mayhems, so I was looking at their X1 v2 clear. Koolance 702 came up sometimes in forum threads as well.


I've seen that same residue in all my loop variations using Cryofuel, so it seems like a common thing. Doesn't bother me though - especially not since I ditched my large res  It also only seems to stick to certain plastics (acrylic, possibly the neoprene ZMT tubing, _tiny_ amounts on acetal) and doesn't really build up over time, so I ultimately don't care. After running it for ~two years without any service with both bare copper and nickel-plated blocks in my loop and both being essentially clean afterwards, it really doesn't seem like a concern. I can completely understand it if loop aesthetics matters though.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jan 24, 2022)

Really tempted to just sell the Impact and go back to the Unify-X. From being on FBMP for like 2 months with only lowballers interest, I feel like I'm the only one who can actually appreciate the board...

Anyone have any good recommendations for a small res for DDC? Currently the only viable option I can get is the Heatkiller Tube 100 or 150. Tube 100 is a little small but I can guarantee I can continue to use in any case. Tube 150 is better sized, but I may have to change down the road if I'm set on eventually getting the case I think I will.

Both priced around $120-130. Have heard some issues about glass tube sealing, so I'd pick up the extra set of 55x4 and 55x5 o-rings with it just in case - I can leak test with my EK tester beforehand.

Available from Dazmode which ships CP Xpresspost across the country for reasonably cheap.

Just not seeing a lot of other DDC options. EK is out of the running entirely as their pricing is batshit insane even for a res-only 160 DDC res at $187.






Valantar said:


> I've seen that same residue in all my loop variations using Cryofuel, so it seems like a common thing. Doesn't bother me though - especially not since I ditched my large res  It also only seems to stick to certain plastics (acrylic, possibly the neoprene ZMT tubing, _tiny_ amounts on acetal) and doesn't really build up over time, so I ultimately don't care. After running it for ~two years without any service with both bare copper and nickel-plated blocks in my loop and both being essentially clean afterwards, it really doesn't seem like a concern. I can completely understand it if loop aesthetics matters though.



On paper I don't see why Cryofuel should be a problem. At most, the oily depositions just cause a headache when I eventually have to disassemble the res to clean it of the residue. Especially once I replace the Iceman res (SS 304 plate), there will be nothing except brass and nickel in the loop, so not much work for Cryofuel to do anyway.

But unlike the classic coolant mfgrs there's so much negative feedback out there about EK coolants. When I bought it, I thought the negativity was limited to their pastel colors (which I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole), but clearly the Clear isn't spared either. No such problems with Mayhems or DP Ultra, but unfortunately both are not possible (DP ultra not in stock, Mayhems shipping is killer)

Seems they make a decent product, but I'm not keen on gambling on their clearly very sketchy QC. Especially as I only have about 600mL left from this batch and will need to buy more.

That and the price. $24 per 1L......I can bring that down to $15 per 1L by getting the concentrate and making my own, but apparently the concentrate is even less reliable

Is it time for automotive coolants?? I trust the electroless Optimus block to stand up to just about anything, not so sure about the Bitspower block...


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## mechtech (Feb 23, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Really tempted to just sell the Impact and go back to the Unify-X. From being on FBMP for like 2 months with only lowballers interest, I feel like I'm the only one who can actually appreciate the board...
> 
> Anyone have any good recommendations for a small res for DDC? Currently the only viable option I can get is the Heatkiller Tube 100 or 150. Tube 100 is a little small but I can guarantee I can continue to use in any case. Tube 150 is better sized, but I may have to change down the road if I'm set on eventually getting the case I think I will.
> 
> ...


I don't always use liquid cooling................but when I do








						HYDROCOOL : Guide and thrust bearing oil coolers
					

Thermofin manufactures reliable guide and thrust bearing oil coolers designed for easy maintenance and low cost operations.




					thermofin.net
				




It's ASME certified 

And yes, my son wanted orange so I put some dexcool in his lol


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## tabascosauz (Mar 8, 2022)

Still waiting on my Gigabyte RMA (3 weeks!!! ), and my VKB Gunfighter Mk. 3 on Friday. In the meantime, here's something a little different:







mechtech said:


> I don't always use liquid cooling................but when I do
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the end I just stayed with Cryofuel. In my life, God punishes me severely every time I try to fix something that ain't broke, and it wasn't broke, so I didn't fix it.   

From the ingredients list, Cryofuel is just watered down Dexcool anyway


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## Valantar (Mar 8, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Still waiting on my Gigabyte RMA (3 weeks!!! ), and my VKB Gunfighter Mk. 3 on Friday. In the meantime, here's something a little different:
> 
> View attachment 239154


That's a nice looking keyboard! I like the chunky, symmetrical bezels. What profile are those caps? They look kind of cherry/OEM-like, but ... somehow a tad softer? Or is the photo just tricking my eyes? I kind of broke myself when I got a (poor print quality, but otherwise acceptable) PBT DSA profile keycap set for my Masterkeys Pro S - I kind of want something more colorful for it, but having to go back to a taller, more squared off cap profile just rubs me the wrong way. And that of course stacks on top of the difficulty of finding nice Nordic/Norwegian ISO keycaps in the first place. You ANSI users have it so easy. Also considering just going for an ANSI Keychron Q1 or Q2 (prebuilt, w/knob) to get all the birds with one stone, though adapting to some bastardized ISO-on-ANSI layout would likely be a major challenge. We'll see, I guess.


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## tabascosauz (Mar 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> That's a nice looking keyboard! I like the chunky, symmetrical bezels. What profile are those caps? They look kind of cherry/OEM-like, but ... somehow a tad softer? Or is the photo just tricking my eyes? I kind of broke myself when I got a (poor print quality, but otherwise acceptable) PBT DSA profile keycap set for my Masterkeys Pro S - I kind of want something more colorful for it, but having to go back to a taller, more squared off cap profile just rubs me the wrong way. And that of course stacks on top of the difficulty of finding nice Nordic/Norwegian ISO keycaps in the first place. You ANSI users have it so easy. Also considering just going for an ANSI Keychron Q1 or Q2 (prebuilt, w/knob) to get all the birds with one stone, though adapting to some bastardized ISO-on-ANSI layout would likely be a major challenge. We'll see, I guess.



I think it might just be the angle of the photo. They're cherry profile. Hammerworks CRP Desko with GMK RGBW modifiers. The Desko sat in storage for a while because I'm not the biggest fan of PBT Cherry profile (slightly narrower keys, not a fan of the texture), but I think this is the way to go for the U80. For every board I have this period in which I'm constantly changing sets, but once I settle on something it'll be stuck on there for the long run.

I was looking at that Keychron with the knob while discussing keyboards with a friend, it looks good for the price. Best of luck with the ISO search though, I don't envy you lol. Especially with how hotswap is all the rage nowadays (personally not a fan of hotswap), it's hard to find boards or high end used keysets that come in ISO.


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## tabascosauz (Apr 6, 2022)

So, in summary:


Gigabyte board died ⇒ RMA took a month ⇒ shipped back to me in PSU box with no accessories and missing heatsink ⇒ GB ignored all my emails ⇒ posted on Reddit ⇒ GB reddit rep noticed and did some snooping for me ⇒ GB USA magically "noticed" my emails ⇒ they offer to find a new replacement ⇒ I send my board back using their label ⇒ now GB USA back to ignoring my emails, radio silence
Viper Steel DIMM also got nuked by the 5V short on the Giga board ⇒ now unable to hold any profile over JEDEC stable enough to boot Windows ⇒ Patriot RMA doesn't even list any model over 3733 ⇒ emailed their RMA dept instead ⇒ TBD
3070 Ti TUF on big sale for $210 off ⇒ picked up one in store ⇒ open it at home to find the card bent and mangled ⇒ backplate screws driven into the finstack at 45 degree angle ⇒ take it right back to store ⇒ they can only offer me refund or RMA ⇒ brand new unused card now with Asus for RMA for who knows how long

All in a month's work. I love you, 2022!


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## tabascosauz (Apr 26, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> So, in summary:
> 
> Gigabyte board died ⇒ RMA took a month ⇒ shipped back to me in PSU box with no accessories and missing heatsink ⇒ GB ignored all my emails ⇒ posted on Reddit ⇒ GB reddit rep noticed and did some snooping for me ⇒ GB USA magically "noticed" my emails ⇒ they offer to find a new replacement ⇒ I send my board back using their label ⇒ now GB USA back to ignoring my emails, radio silence
> Viper Steel DIMM also got nuked by the 5V short on the Giga board ⇒ now unable to hold any profile over JEDEC stable enough to boot Windows ⇒ Patriot RMA doesn't even list any model over 3733 ⇒ emailed their RMA dept instead ⇒ TBD
> ...



The drama ain't over! AMD just approved the RMA, gotta pack it up and send it out.

My 5700G was damaged as well. How do I know? Everything that runs off the SOC domain is having a very rough time.

*UMC*: now literally refuses to train B-die above JEDEC. Errors straight into BIOS recovery mode (Asus) or endless training bootloop (GB).
*Fabric*: just about long gone. No point in even trying. I wouldn't even bet on it holding 1800MHz anymore if I gave it 1.5V.
*iGPU*: we were 2300MHz stable, then all of a sudden even stock 2000MHz was holding on by a thread, and now it's artifacting.
I could get into BIOS but not past Windows login. I thought Windows might be corrupt. Clean installed, and Windows setup only barely managed to complete after 7 reboots. Same thing - it wasn't Windows either.

Think you've seen Ryzen degradation? This 5700G went downhill like an undiagnosed ebola patient.

Vendor RMA reputations in 2022:

*Gigabyte*: an arduous 2.5 months to finish RMA properly and get a hold of people. But I got a new board, brand new accessories to replace the ones lost, a jacket and a USB stick.
*Patriot*: 2 weeks from submitting RMA to receiving replacement. Bravo! New replacement sent directly from their distributor through Amazon, which is where I bought the original.
*Asus*: fucking dogshit service for an inexcusable, brand new, unused GPU - 4 weeks and no updates whatsoever. Every passing business day the Asus dungpile gets bigger.
*AMD*: we shall see.........


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## Chomiq (Apr 26, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> The drama ain't over! AMD just approved the RMA, gotta pack it up and send it out.
> 
> My 5700G was damaged as well. How do I know? Everything that runs off the SOC domain is having a very rough time.
> 
> ...


Jesus, my hair would go completely white after all that RMA sh*t.


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## Valantar (Apr 26, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> The drama ain't over! AMD just approved the RMA, gotta pack it up and send it out.
> 
> My 5700G was damaged as well. How do I know? Everything that runs off the SOC domain is having a very rough time.
> 
> ...


Damn, that is a looooong shitlist you're building up. Won't be many hardware vendors left to use after they've all ran out of goodwill at this pace. That degradation is pretty harsh though - what settings/voltages were you running previously?


----------



## tabascosauz (Apr 26, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Damn, that is a looooong shitlist you're building up. Won't be many hardware vendors left to use after they've all ran out of goodwill at this pace. That degradation is pretty harsh though - what settings/voltages were you running previously?



I was not serious about the degradation remark, this one is looking like pure physical damage. The 5700G going to shit exactly coincides with the 5V rail short.

Prior to the board RMA, UMC held 4333CL16, IF held 2166MHz, iGPU held 2300MHz for 6 straight months. All 3 stooges were happy as long as load VSOC didn't drop below 1.18V.

After the board RMA, the 5700G was having a seizure in the Impact when I tried to tighten primaries. Rev.E was ok, but again, tRCD and tRP had to remain weirdly loose even for Micron, and iGPU completely refused to OC at all anymore.

Then I got the replacement Vipers and found out that the UMC was flatly boycotting B-die, that's when I knew I had not gotten to the bottom of it. Then the UMC and IF skipped town altogether.

It's not really a shitlist. Gigabyte just had me exasperated for 3 months, it's Gigabyte. Patriot was a good experience. AMD, well, they quickly approved this time without wasting my time.

But Asus is unequivocally on the shitlist.


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## Valantar (Apr 26, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I was not serious about the degradation remark, this one is looking like pure physical damage. The 5700G going to shit exactly coincides with the 5V rail short.
> 
> Prior to the board RMA, UMC held 4333CL16, IF held 2166MHz, iGPU held 2300MHz for 6 straight months. All 3 stooges were happy as long as load VSOC didn't drop below 1.18V.
> 
> ...


Ah, that does indeed sound like that CPU got fried somehow in that failure. A real shame, considering how it ran previously! Gigabyte is indeed a ... special case


----------



## tabascosauz (May 13, 2022)

I am THIS close to selling my entire HTPC and never touching anything from the red company ever again

My CPU came back from RMA anew, my board came back from RMA new, my other board IS new, my RAM came back from RMA new, my HDPlex works just fine, my SN550 works just fine......and I still cannot make it to Windows or through a Windows install no matter what I do

I have tried everything and now am down to swapping in the brand new B550I Aorus AX replacement board because I am out of options and am ready to off myself

2022, what the hell is your problem??


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## phill (May 14, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> 2022, what the hell is your problem??


I feel your pain.....

I can't say I've had any problems with any AMD kit I've bought and I've a few boards and CPUs here..   Could it be just time for a different make/model??


----------



## tabascosauz (May 14, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I am THIS close to selling my entire HTPC and never touching anything from the red company ever again
> 
> My CPU came back from RMA anew, my board came back from RMA new, my other board IS new, my RAM came back from RMA new, my HDPlex works just fine, my SN550 works just fine......and I still cannot make it to Windows or through a Windows install no matter what I do
> 
> ...



Okay, looks like Asus is just incompetent. Phew. Back up and running on the Gigabyte board with our old January 2022 settings. F13l beta BIOS, 4333 16-16-16 @ 1.54V, 2300MHz Vega 8 @ 1.26V VSOC. Reinstalled, downloaded all my stuff, played Genshin, started working on curve optimizer. Runs exactly like it used to and as I expect it to. Still need to work out new curve optimizer and maybe new iGPU/VSOC/VDIMM.

Now I'm left with a spare Strix that can't handle APUs, performs badly, doesn't like to train B-die, has much worse build quality, questionable I/O, and rather sus M.2 cooling. Great.



phill said:


> I feel your pain.....
> 
> I can't say I've had any problems with any AMD kit I've bought and I've a few boards and CPUs here..   Could it be just time for a different make/model??



I dunno. Next time around I think I would just go for an i5 + low profile GTX 1650 or RX6400. I'm still using the niche F13l beta BIOS and not the F13 release, because iGPU performance savagely tanks for no reason in F13, and they don't have a AGESA 1207 release yet.

Which is still more than I can say for Asus.

I just...I always try to give AMD the benefit of a doubt over the whole "Intel is more dependable" thing because it sounds like a fanboy thing to say. But I can't deny it. The 3700X was just a turd. The 4650G found itself on some really sketchy AGESAs - and then Adrenalin drivers really hated Vega 7 for a while. The 5900X is the closest to reliable, but it still had the fTPM problem. The 5700G...well...the board vendors still don't understand Renoir/Cezanne. The one time Intel ever gave me trouble was a geriatric i5-650 that just wanted to quit.

At some point enough is enough. But then again, I have no desktop experience in 8th-12th gen, so who knows? I don't want to be Intel's guinea pig either for Meteor Lake, so I guess I'll see if they can convince me with 13th gen.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (May 14, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Okay, looks like Asus is just incompetent. Phew. Back up and running on the Gigabyte board with our old January 2022 settings. F13l beta BIOS, 4333 16-16-16 @ 1.54V, 2300MHz Vega 8 @ 1.26V VSOC. Reinstalled, downloaded all my stuff, played Genshin, started working on curve optimizer. Runs exactly like it used to and as I expect it to. Still need to work out new curve optimizer and maybe new iGPU/VSOC/VDIMM.
> 
> Now I'm left with a spare Strix that can't handle APUs, performs badly, doesn't like to train B-die, has much worse build quality, questionable I/O, and rather sus M.2 cooling. Great.
> 
> ...



Anecdotally, I'm two for two with 9th and 10th gen setups (outside of a bum refurb board, but that's hardly the platform's fault).  Keep wanting to build a platform around a 5600G, but can't justify the expense.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 14, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Anecdotally, I'm two for two with 9th and 10th gen setups (outside of a bum refurb board, but that's hardly the platform's fault).  Keep wanting to build a platform around a 5600G, but can't justify the expense.



Sometimes I indulge in "what-if" sessions and wonder what it would have been like if I ponied up for a 9900K. Probably would still be using it now and cost much less in the long run. Bought into the whole online Ryzen hype train I guess. 

It's a little late to buy into the APUs. They can do a bunch of things but those things are kinda mutually exclusive. And if you're not into fast ram then Vega 7 won't beat a 1030 sooo


----------



## Valantar (May 14, 2022)

I wouldn't buy a Ryzen APU now for the sole reason of AM5 APUs in the near-ish future with DDR5 and RDNA2 kicking their butt. We're already seeing that in mobile, with the Radeon 680m in a 28-45W APU roughly matching a laptop 1650 in light to medium loads (the 1650 pulls away in heavier tasks, likely due to being less bandwidth and power limited, not sharing a power budget). They just make the current Vega iGPUs look oh so dated. I just hope AMD is somewhat quick in getting desktop Rembrandt out on AM5. But the "we're nearly there!" APU performance train just keeps on rolling...


----------



## phill (May 14, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I dunno. Next time around I think I would just go for an i5 + low profile GTX 1650 or RX6400. I'm still using the niche F13l beta BIOS and not the F13 release, because iGPU performance savagely tanks for no reason in F13, and they don't have a AGESA 1207 release yet.
> 
> Which is still more than I can say for Asus.
> 
> ...


I been reading through the thread and just wondering, the Impact and Ryzen is that more of a gaming rig for you or just a general use machine that is for everything?  I get that its meant for a very small case so it can be transported around easily 

It's looking great so I'm trying to keep an eye


----------



## tabascosauz (May 14, 2022)

phill said:


> I been reading through the thread and just wondering, the Impact and Ryzen is that more of a gaming rig for you or just a general use machine that is for everything?  I get that its meant for a very small case so it can be transported around easily
> 
> It's looking great so I'm trying to keep an eye



The Impact and 5900X is my main, it does everything so I put a premium on stability over max OC. Cerberus is a bit too big to carry around and Impact is a bad choice for <5L cases or APUs.

The Aorus and 5700G is hooked up to my TV usually, I take it with me if I need it. Otherwise, mostly just for chilling in bed at night/on the weekends. I experiment a lot more on this one.

I did have travel in mind for the small one, but oddly enough ever since I've made it convenient for travel, I've stopped travelling.


----------



## ThrashZone (May 14, 2022)

Hi,
That last bit was funny


----------



## ThrashZone (May 14, 2022)

I stay away from strix.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 14, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> I stay away from strix.



I appreciate a good Asus BIOS as much as the next guy but I don't feel like Asus puts in any effort for their lower-than-ROG. The AM4 Strix VTTDDR only going in the ↑ direction was a funny one  

Didn't like the B550-I Strix but it was the only alternative - the ASRock not suitable, the lower end ASRock I have and it's ass, the MSI I had and it didn't understand APUs either. In the end I disliked the Strix for the exact issues I thought I would - the socket placement causing problems, Richtek VRM, the M.2 stack is weird and not very good, terrible rear I/O, not-preinstalled rear I/O makes USB-C hard to plug in, no fan control for VRM fan (the two on the Impact are controllable) etc.

ROG is good, but man the prices just keep going up


----------



## freeagent (May 15, 2022)

Man.. really sorry to hear your troubles. I wonder what is going on with them? I have 2 Strix boards, I am sure they aren't the best, but to me they have been awesome. I did buy that one TUF that was DOA.. but even just looking at the board.. what a piece of crap that was, not the Asus quality that I was used to. Mind you I only buy their ROG stuff anyways. But what a piece of crap, especially for the price. Pretty sure I used toilet paper thicker than that board lol


----------



## tabascosauz (May 15, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Man.. really sorry to hear your troubles. I wonder what is going on with them? I have 2 Strix boards, I am sure they aren't the best, but to me they have been awesome. I did buy that one TUF that was DOA.. but even just looking at the board.. what a piece of crap that was, not the Asus quality that I was used to. Mind you I only buy their ROG stuff anyways. But what a piece of crap, especially for the price. Pretty sure I used toilet paper thicker than that board lol



I paid $220 back in the day for that same TUF......not proud of that, but let's just say at least that board worked.

$250 Strix is even with a price cut. It launched at over $300, highway robbery for what it is. Has no backplate while the same price Aorus does. Same price Aorus has a finned M.2 heatsink - the Strix literally has a chunk of plastic stuck on top of the M.2 heatsink. Also the B550 PCH runs hotter than the X570 Impact  just sad

I don't have an explanation for why it loves crashing so much, no other board does it.


----------



## Mussels (May 15, 2022)

You definitely gotta have a faulty or incompatible part going on there
I mean it's also possible that asus just have some lemon designs from time to time and that's one of them - my x570-F has been fantastic, except for a thermal pad on the chipset that died way too fast
In my experience with about 20 ryzen systems in the last few years, every damn time theres issues it's the RAM.

Does the B-die you're using have odd or even timings? Gear down mode could be behaving differently between the boards altering the timings in a way the RAM doesnt like (and you dont give the impression of someone who'd settle for 2x8GHz 3200Mhz XMP)


----------



## tabascosauz (May 15, 2022)

Mussels said:


> You definitely gotta have a faulty or incompatible part going on there
> I mean it's also possible that asus just have some lemon designs from time to time and that's one of them - my x570-F has been fantastic, except for a thermal pad on the chipset that died way too fast
> In my experience with about 20 ryzen systems in the last few years, every damn time theres issues it's the RAM.
> 
> Does the B-die you're using have odd or even timings? Gear down mode could be behaving differently between the boards altering the timings in a way the RAM doesnt like (and you dont give the impression of someone who'd settle for 2x8GHz 3200Mhz XMP)



But do you use APUs though? They behave very differently.

It's not the RAM. It hates my Rev.E Ballistix kit too, VSOC or timings just doesn't matter to the Strix. It still reboots all the time, as long as over 3600 or so I think. Which is not acceptable.


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 15, 2022)

Mussels said:


> In my experience with about 20 ryzen systems in the last few years, every damn time theres issues it's the RAM.


In my experience with about 200 Ryzen systems in the last few years, you are right.


tabascosauz said:


> But do you use APUs though? They behave very differently.


I do not. Presumably their IMC technology is broadly similar though?


----------



## tabascosauz (May 15, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> I do not. Presumably their IMC technology is broadly similar though?



Again, it has nothing to do with RAM. On the Aorus the Viper Steel kit works fine, and so does the Ballistix.

Desktop parts draw 15-20 amps SOC. APUs using iGPU draw 35-40 amps on the daily, haven't yet met a board that doesn't struggle with droop.

But that's irrelevant, because the Strix is not crashing under load and droop is fine. Old Aorus didn't do it, new Aorus doesn't do it, Impact didn't even do it with the damaged CPU, Gaming Edge Wifi didn't do it, ITX/ac didnt do it.


----------



## Valantar (May 15, 2022)

Now, I've only built one APU system, but that one supports your "motherboards don't handle these well/motherboard vendors don't know how to deal with them" hypothesis - my cheapo Asrock board used to be able to run the iGPU at 2100 or 2200 and RAM at 3800, but (and this is with the reservation that I haven't spent significant time attempting to overcome this) after the B550 USB fix BIOS update it refuses to even boot at 3600 at very lax timings, and the iGPU doesn't get as high either. This is with Micron E that happily clocks past 4100 (but I kept getting IF/WHEA errors at those speeds, so the IMC was always the bottleneck - but now it's the board).


----------



## tabascosauz (May 15, 2022)

Valantar said:


> but I kept getting IF/WHEA errors at those speeds



The 4650G is still in the B550M-ITX/ac, I think I left it on 4000CL16 but an old bios (1.50??). Been a while since I checked. That's pretty generous though that the board still lets you know through WHEA  mine only either:

works
crashes
"nah fam, i ain't posting today"
"don't talk to me until you've reflashed"
There are certain bioses to avoid for the Aorus, but I couldn't find a single BIOS that the Strix liked.


----------



## MIRTAZAPINE (May 15, 2022)

I never expected that APU could this problematic. It is a problem across all boards? Sounds like just going with an Low profile gpu from Nvidia may the way to go without dealing with the headaches but kinda defeat the purpose of an APU for compatibility. Avoid team red for LP gpu though currently I seem to have issue with my old Rx460 card having a black screen issue which regardless driver does not work well.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 15, 2022)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I never expected that APU could this problematic. It is a problem across all boards? Sounds like just going with an Low profile gpu from Nvidia may the way to go without dealing with the headaches but kinda defeat the purpose of an APU for compatibility. Avoid team red for LP gpu though currently I seem to have issue with my old Rx460 card having a black screen issue which regardless driver does not work well.



I think I'm with you there on radeon drivers.......I'm 5/6 for Geforce drivers, and 2/5 for problem-free Radeon...

It's more that no one really gives a fuck about the APUs (or cares enough beyond running stock core and 3200CL16), so no one ever looks into bugs and poor performance, and we have to figure out how they work by ourselves since no expert cares to write about the APUs. Martin @ hwinfo has been doing a good job deciphering Vega iGPU but even now none of the power consumption metrics add up. Recently in AGESA they added separate TDC/EDC for SOC, but from what I can tell SOC domain power is still subsumed under package power, so.....another thing we have to figure out for ourselves.

Dunno. Maybe just tired. might be time to hop off this crazy bandwagon


----------



## Valantar (May 15, 2022)

I kind of think this is a consequence of enthusiast use of a niche product from a smaller manufacturer - while AMD is massively richer now than even 2-3 years ago, they still likely have relatively limited QC and development support budgets, and they've shown for years now that APUs outside of OEM builds is too small a market for them to afford putting much of an effort into it. I keep hoping that will change, and I guess there's more of a chance of it happening when APU iGPUs at one point start actually rivalling entry dGPUs (680m coming close to mobile 1650 is certainly promising!), but even then we'll see. Hopefully with AM5 we'll see OEMs do more than stick a 1/1 doubled/2 phases on the SoC and be done with it, and see some more concerted efforts into BIOS and driver work as well. But who knows - this might still not happen - it's all up to AMD and how they prioritize their resources and how well they design their specs and guides for partners.

Still, FWIW I'm pretty happy with my 4650G build overall - it's just a shame that I'm no longer able to push that extra ~30% of gaming performance out of it that I used to get. Other than that it's dead stable for me (and that's even when accounting for me knocking off a _tiny_ SMD from the board during assembly. Whoops! No idea where it came from either ). But it's still eminently power efficient and more than snappy for HTPC use.


----------



## Mussels (May 15, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> But do you use APUs though? They behave very differently.
> 
> It's not the RAM. It hates my Rev.E Ballistix kit too, VSOC or timings just doesn't matter to the Strix. It still reboots all the time, as long as over 3600 or so I think. Which is not acceptable.


No i don't have the APU's - i definitely believe they could have worse/shitty BIOS support on some boards easily enough

I mean the fact that you have DDR4 4000 says a lot, that aint gunna work out of the box for anyone


----------



## Valantar (May 15, 2022)

Mussels said:


> No i don't have the APU's - i definitely believe they could have worse/shitty BIOS support on some boards easily enough
> 
> I mean the fact that you have DDR4 4000 says a lot, that aint gunna work out of the box for anyone


The thing is, AMD's APU IMCs are _fantastic_ - there was a period when Renoir (IIRC) was setting DDR4 world records, and generally outperforming Ryzen CPU IMCs. The problem isn't the APUs themselves, but clearly something about either the boards or the BIOSes.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 15, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I mean the fact that you have DDR4 4000 says a lot, that aint gunna work out of the box for anyone



Where'd I say I had DDR4-4000?

These are APUs. They barely need 1.1V for 2000MHz. A 5700G that can't even hit 4000 1:1 single rank is like a 5800X that quits at 3200.


----------



## ThrashZone (May 15, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I appreciate a good Asus BIOS as much as the next guy but I don't feel like Asus puts in any effort for their lower-than-ROG. The AM4 Strix VTTDDR only going in the ↑ direction was a funny one
> 
> Didn't like the B550-I Strix but it was the only alternative - the ASRock not suitable, the lower end ASRock I have and it's ass, the MSI I had and it didn't understand APUs either. In the end I disliked the Strix for the exact issues I thought I would - the socket placement causing problems, Richtek VRM, the M.2 stack is weird and not very good, terrible rear I/O, not-preinstalled rear I/O makes USB-C hard to plug in, no fan control for VRM fan (the two on the Impact are controllable) etc.
> 
> ROG is good, but man the prices just keep going up


Hi,
Yeah I probably bought my last asus rog board with the z490 apex at 400.us which is my limit actually returned a 600.us formula for it
Good thing is I have plenty of systems x99/ x299/ z490 and shouldn't need a new one for some time besides maybe a laptop 

AMD has improved memory wise quite a bit on 5k series another friend has one and is enjoying it he was prior intel guy
Prior turn offs doing a amd build were driver/ memory and gpu compatibility issues 

Looks like you should be doing mother board reviews


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## Mussels (May 16, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Where'd I say I had DDR4-4000?
> 
> These are APUs. They barely need 1.1V for 2000MHz. A 5700G that can't even hit 4000 1:1 single rank is like a 5800X that quits at 3200.


I could have misread, but i saw DDR4 4000 mentioned in there somewhere

the APU's might be able to do it, doesnt mean the boards are capable


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I could have misread, but i saw DDR4 4000 mentioned in there somewhere
> 
> the APU's might be able to do it, doesnt mean the boards are capable



4000 is the 4650G, I don't push it anymore since it's for a family member now.

It's not board topology limitations - when the board itself is struggling to train and maxing out the symptoms are very different. Regardless:

4-layer full size boards do about 4000-4600 SR. 6-layer ITX is equivalent.
6-layer full size boards do anywhere from 4800-5100+ SR. 8-layer ITX is equivalent, unless botched like some of ASRock's boards.
Strix is rated 5100 for the halo $900 kit of Ballistix Max with Rev.B. Yes, that's with looser timings so less UMC load, but it's also QVL'd for a variety of high freq B-die up to 4800CL18.

Heck, my own 4400CL19 Vipers are on the QVL along with a billion other 4400CL19 B-die kits..........and so are my 4000CL18 Ballistix Max

So it's pretty clear it's to do with how Asus programmed or designed the Strix. Outwardly it doesn't have any visible trouble with maintaining VSOC or setting voltages properly......but it crashes like it does.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 16, 2022)

In all fairness - a picture probably better demonstrates that these are not the same animal as a 5600X/5800X. After an hour of some gaming:


----------



## Valantar (May 16, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> In all fairness - a picture probably better demonstrates that these are not the same animal as a 5600X/5800X. After an hour of some gaming:
> 
> View attachment 247622


Yeah, if that's stuck with a single-phase VRM, that's not going to be a happy chip. It would be really nice if AMD made an iGPU-specific voltage rail for AM5, even if it would drive up board prices a tad. Or just encourage 2-3-4-phase vSOC VRMs, of course.


----------



## tabascosauz (May 17, 2022)

Valantar said:


> It would be really nice if AMD made an iGPU-specific voltage rail for AM5



The 2 x 90A setup for most high end VSOC is okay in terms of raw output. It's more down to the controller and implementation.

There is already VDDCR_GFX, but it might as well not exist because it can only ever be two things: Intel mode (fixed volts for fixed clock, slaved to VSOC) or variable boost (not user-controllable except Graphics PBO/CO limited to 2200MHz). AMD likes keeping their boost designs outside of user control so

iirc intel has a separate rail but it's usually a crappy 1-phase affair, and boards with no display output don't even have the 1-phase. AM5 chiplet iGPU looks to be a very crappy product in there just to provide display output, so it might be similarly hard to convince board makers to invest more into their iGPU support just for the more graphically powerful APUs


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 23, 2022)

Not much going on as of late - more outdoors = more cranky when indoors

New 32" panel. Wanted to get some more real estate for DCS, settled for a Gigabyte M32Q. A good 40-43" range option would have sealed the deal, but there were none. 

32" 32GP850 - too expensive for basically equal to M32Q, as usual for LG horrible I/O and no internal PSU
32" M32U - too expensive
43" FV43U - too expensive atm, also kinda big of a panel to be playing the Gigabyte lottery on
43" Sony X80K - 60Hz
43" Sony X85K - priced okay but only for console gaming, blurry at 120Hz due to Mediatek
55" LG NANO90 2021 - priced okay but decided against the open box
55" Sony X90K - too expensive
55" Hisense U8G - priced okay but blurry at 120Hz due to Mediatek
55" Samsung Q80 - too expensive 
I thought it would be a sidegrade at best from 27" to 32", but the size increase is pretty damn noticeable. Only drawback is that the scaling is very different between two panel sizes, so can't appease both panels at once (125% too big on 32", 100% too small on 27", mixing scaling causes blurry apps). At this size on flat panel the corners are beginning to darken, but it's still bearable. I can see why they don't make many 34" flat panels.





Much bigger irl than pictures convey.

Also, new controller. Unrailed is a great game for controllers and local coop.


----------



## ThrashZone (Aug 23, 2022)

Hi,
Maddening I say


----------



## P4-630 (Aug 23, 2022)

At least you have proper controllers.
(unlike sony controllers with the sticks on wrong positions which just doesn't work....)


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 23, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> At least you have proper controllers.
> (unlike sony controllers with the sticks on wrong positions which just doesn't work....)



Unfortunately, all of japan seems to disagree with us......

I've got nothing against Sony, just that I can't get used to their layout. When I'm in the Abyss grind I'll work the D-pad for character switching with my right thumb so I don't have to stop moving - not really possible on Sony.

Also proprietary internal battery yuck. Would much rather have a set of eneloops like I do now that I can rotate in and out and also pop in any other device I need.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 24, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Not much going on as of late - more outdoors = more cranky when indoors
> 
> New 32" panel. Wanted to get some more real estate for DCS, settled for a Gigabyte M32Q. A good 40-43" range option would have sealed the deal, but there were none.
> 
> ...


I've been looking into new screens myself as VA blur occasionally causes me eye issues

As annoyed as i am with gigabyte as a company, the M32U and M32Q really do seem the best 32" options out there at present, depending if you want 1440p or 4K


My secondary is the M32QC (the VA panel variant) and overall its great - except for needing specific settings to minimise the VA blurring, which honestly only really happens with black/white mixes while scrolling, like some fonts on websites


Sigh if the price on the M32U wasn't so high...





Then theres the FI32U, which i'm honestly not sure what's worth the higher price - is it freesync vs adaptive sync? The pretty much useless sabre audio?






Edit: random observation here, but it's very telling that the FI32U has the same response times at 144Hz as it does at 60Hz.
Have we reached a point where panels other than OLED cant keep up, and we're seeing a semi placebo effect from increased framerates decreasing render latency and input latency, but not altering anything for the actual display?






Despite being almost identical, thee firmwares seem to change the way they work drastically?

FI32U on the left, M32U on the right.
M32U has better response times but has overshoot, which basically seems like the overdrive setting is cranked up one setting
FI32U is recommended for overdrive off, while M32U is recommended to 'picture'




Even knowing a firmware update fixed the 60Hz input lag, look at the difference a dodgy firmware makes to input latency...
12.5ms vs 21.4ms at 60Hz?






Oh i'm doing that "researching into oblivion" thing again woops


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Aug 24, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I thought it would be a sidegrade at best from 27" to 32", but the size increase is pretty damn noticeable.


Try 3x 32" QHD panels 

True immersion.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 24, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I've been looking into new screens myself as VA blur occasionally causes me eye issues
> 
> As annoyed as i am with gigabyte as a company, the M32U and M32Q really do seem the best 32" options out there at present, depending if you want 1440p or 4K
> 
> ...



@Mussels holy cow the pricing

I waited a while for the price to come down before buying the M32Q at $490 ($540 AUD equivalent). Cheaper than it is in the US atm. That M32U pricing is just absurd. And extra $200 for FI32U is insanity. It's just a M32U with a "better" stand, less I/O, less useful KVM and some "gaming features". Here at about the same price is the massive FV43U instead.

To the response time at 60Hz, most of these monitors have respectable 60Hz response that isn't far behind max native Hz, but it doesn't change much. Your actual input lag at 60Hz will still be higher even with framecapping, Reflex on Boost, etc. 

On the M32Q I've just left it on Picture Quality and let it blur the way it wants. BFI was just too jarring even on Balance setting. As long as input lag is good enough, I don't mind the blur.



Count von Schwalbe said:


> Try 3x 32" QHD panels
> 
> True immersion.



i m m e r s i o n

It makes for a pretty sim pit on r/hoggit, but I'm not sure how helpful uber wide but super short screen would actually be in A-A mission. For real immersion I'm guessing everyone's answer will be the option that starts with V and ends with R. The Reverb G2 is cheaper than the M32U anyway.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Aug 24, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> i m m e r s i o n
> 
> It makes for a pretty sim pit on r/hoggit, but I'm not sure how helpful uber wide but super short screen would actually be in A-A mission.


Whaaa?

Time to jump on Reddit to figure out what the thunder you are taking about...

I actually use it for productivity - immersion into dozens of PDF's and emails at once.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 24, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Try 3x 32" QHD panels
> 
> True immersion.


Try 2x32" QHD + 1x 32" UHD
(And then overclock the QHD's to do UHD)
It's stupid. I'll never go back.


Au prices are of course higher, and include tax.

This is why when i got my 4K Kogan (in theory a piece of shit, but with OC'ing and tweaking settings quite good) for $200 and the gigabyte for $400, they seem much better value in comparison


----------



## bubbleawsome (Aug 24, 2022)

With the new QDOLED panels going into their second generation next year I'm sure we'll see more PC monitors with that tech. Right now it seems to be the cleanest and fastest panel type money can buy.


----------



## R0H1T (Aug 24, 2022)

And super expensive


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 24, 2022)

bubbleawsome said:


> With the new QDOLED panels going into their second generation next year I'm sure we'll see more PC monitors with that tech. Right now it seems to be the cleanest and fastest panel type money can buy.



The OLED TVs are super nice but I'll admit I'm a bit leery about burn-in. Not sure the exact difference between the two but every one of my AMOLED phones has gotten navbar/statusbar burn-in between 1-2 years in, and the screens are always on a very short timeout. So while it's probably not a world-ending problem, unfortunately I'm super OCD with my screens and notice small imperfections.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Aug 24, 2022)

I have heard that displaying a different image improves the burn-in more than simply turning the screen off.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 24, 2022)

bubbleawsome said:


> With the new QDOLED panels going into their second generation next year I'm sure we'll see more PC monitors with that tech. Right now it seems to be the cleanest and fastest panel type money can buy.


For motion and color, yes, but they're relatively low pixel density and have a stupid subpixel layout which makes them sub-par for anything where sharpness is key. If Samsung made a true RGB QD-OLED panel, flat, with 2160p resolution, I'd order one tomorrow even if it was 32" - though at 27" I'd be throwing money at my monitor.


tabascosauz said:


> The OLED TVs are super nice but I'll admit I'm a bit leery about burn-in. Not sure the exact difference between the two but every one of my AMOLED phones has gotten navbar/statusbar burn-in between 1-2 years in, and the screens are always on a very short timeout. So while it's probably not a world-ending problem, unfortunately I'm super OCD with my screens and notice small imperfections.


I share that worry, though not for QD-OLED - its higher brightness capabilities means it doesn't have to push itself so hard for normal brightness levels, which inherently reduces the risk of burn-in, plus the tech is reportedly hardier on its own. LG's newer heatsinked WOLED panels are also supposedly better in this regard, though I'll believe that when I see it.


Count von Schwalbe said:


> I have heard that displaying a different image improves the burn-in more than simply turning the screen off.


It can help alleviate it by distributing wear across the screen rather than just not increasing wear at all - and that's what 'pixel refresher' cycles do after all, just run every pixel through a bunch of colors to even things out a bit. But it all eats into the lifetime and brightness output of your panel.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 27, 2022)

After weeks of tearing my hair out I think I *might *have accidentally found the culprit to my chronic G-sync flickering:






Typical suggestions are "expand the Freesync range to prevent LFC" (not helpful, FPS never goes nearly that low for the duration of the flickering) or "get a monitor with actual G-sync module". Answer was apparently to just turn HAGS off. All the flickering stopped. 

It used to just be one game and went away for a while. Suddenly in the last few weeks it worsened dramatically and expanded to every game in which framerate is consistently below or capped below 100fps, at which point alarm bells started ringing. It used to be just on my S2721DGF, but I quickly found that my M32Q does it too, but at a slightly lower frequency. 

On the S2721DGF it just causes more eyestrain (on top of existing eyestrain from being so red all the time). It's so bad on the M32Q that it pretty much looks like when you take a smartphone video of a computer screen, or CRT flicker on crack.

Things I've tried in the past year:

G-sync fullscreen only: the only way to get Genshin to cooperate, because it's engine-limited to 60Hz with no true fullscreen mode (force -window-mode exclusive). However, certain environments still caused a lot of extremely fast flicker (darker environments, very blue/purple environments). Alt+Enter x2 doesn't help, restarting doesn't help, can only wait it out and hope it stops.
G-sync windowed: a one-way ticket to insufferable constant flicker.
No G-sync: both Genshin and War Thunder are fucking insufferable on high refresh without G-sync (in WT's case, + mandatory Vsync). 
ReBAR: no dice, only slightly more stutter in DCS.
Increasing GPU load by upping the res: no dice. 
Changing Displayport cables. 
Getting rid of secondary monitors (including the old 60Hz GW2765HT that I thought was the problem somehow being incompatible)
Changing all sorts of NVCP settings
Disabling BFI (M32Q) 
Disabling Displaycal profile loader
Disabling all calibrations
Taking USB devices off of the monitors' hubs
Trying 60Hz: it kind of works, but only with G-sync off, and obviously with horrendous input lag
Trying 120Hz and 144Hz
Obviously, the testing will continue in the coming days. I used to keep HAGS off, but it must been turned on automatically somewhere along the way, or I forgot to turn it off after my last 10>11 move or clean install. 

As usual, fuck you Microsoft


----------



## Mussels (Aug 29, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> After weeks of tearing my hair out I think I *might *have accidentally found the culprit to my chronic G-sync flickering:
> 
> View attachment 259550
> 
> ...


Interesting, this is enabled by default in 11, and possibly modern builds of 10.


I've always had that flickering on my VA panels, what monitor(s) (and what tech is it) that you had this appear and get resolved with?


Edit: Wait the IPS M32Q? IPS should be immune to the Gsync flicker


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 29, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Edit: Wait the IPS M32Q? IPS should be immune to the Gsync flicker



Tell that to both my M32Q and S2721DGF   both 1440p IPS, one an innolux panel and one a LG nanoIPS panel. Neither of these panels are real G-sync, they're just Freesync Premium/"G-sync compatible", with no module inside them.

I still don't know what exactly the flicker is. LFC-caused (low framerate compensation) brightness flicker seems to be what it looks like, but neither game ever dips below even the stock lower limit for Freesync (48Hz) so it doesn't make any sense.

So far HAGS set to off with Windows VRR set to on has conclusively eliminated all flicker from War Thunder. Genshin not quite, still a work in progress as always, but a little bit better. Right now I'm going back to re-test if faster overdrive helps (which enables BFI).

HAGS off seems to eliminate a lot of the general random stuttering in games.


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## Mussels (Aug 29, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Tell that to both my M32Q and S2721DGF   both 1440p IPS, one an innolux panel and one a LG nanoIPS panel. Neither of these panels are real G-sync, they're just Freesync Premium/"G-sync compatible", with no module inside them.
> 
> I still don't know what exactly the flicker is. LFC-caused (low framerate compensation) brightness flicker seems to be what it looks like, but neither game ever dips below even the stock lower limit for Freesync (48Hz) so it doesn't make any sense.
> 
> ...


Shit, glad you're onto this.

I've been looking into monitor upgrades to get AWAY from that flicker here, and everyone says its a VA panel issue - I was going to get the M32Q, before i got this kogan second hand for pennies
In my experience, most monitors have serious overshoot smearing on anything that isn't the balanced overdrive setting, the Rtings review for your screens should tell you if that holds true


As an example, if it wasnt for the curve i'd be happy with samsungs G8 240Hz - because i can maintain 120FPS easily, and i'd get the LFC kicking it up to 240 (example, yes i know those numbers arent quite right)

But, they're still VA panels and supposedly have these same flickers. A lot of games drop the FPS to single digit values at loading screens and I get migraines from the flickering so it's something I've had to disable, and try to upgrade away from.


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## mechtech (Sep 1, 2022)

Flicker?!  Usually that's on the type of back-lighting, and/or if the monitor has blur reduction which will then typically strobe the backlighting in sync with refresh to reduce blur...........well at least I think that's what I recall.

Some light reading









						Flicker Free Monitor Database - TFTCentral
					

Helping you to find monitors that have flicker free backlights and do not use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) for backlight dimming.




					tftcentral.co.uk
				











						Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) - TFTCentral
					

Looking at how backlight dimming is controlled in the monitor market, and the problematic use of PWM in some displays




					tftcentral.co.uk
				











						Motion Blur Reduction Backlights - TFTCentral
					

An article looking at motion blur reduction backlights and technologies in the monitor market, from their early life to modern implementation




					tftcentral.co.uk
				








						Articles - TFTCentral
					






					tftcentral.co.uk


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## tabascosauz (Sep 1, 2022)

mechtech said:


> Flicker?!  Usually that's on the type of back-lighting, and/or if the monitor has blur reduction which will then typically strobe the backlighting in sync with refresh to reduce blur...........well at least I think that's what I recall.
> 
> Some light reading
> 
> ...



S2721DGF has PWM but its frequency is way too high, not noticeable, I also run high brightness way above the PWM range. 
M32Q has no PWM.

S2721DGF has no backlight strobing/ELMB/BFI altogether. 
M32Q has BFI but it's not enabled right now, and does not work below 85Hz iirc in conjunction with VRR. From seeing the ELMB flicker in some videos, it appears to be a little different. Same deal with LFC, framerate isn't nearly low enough (48Hz) that LFC should come on.

Anyhow, the problem is exclusively with Freesync Premium / G-sync Compatible. Alt+Enter to bring a game back into windowed mode (where VRR is not enabled), and it instantly goes away, Alt+Enter again to Fullscreen and it's back instantly.

One of these days I'm gonna get myself a high speed camera, only way to figure this out once and for all


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## tabascosauz (Sep 1, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Shit, glad you're onto this.
> 
> I've been looking into monitor upgrades to get AWAY from that flicker here, and everyone says its a VA panel issue - I was going to get the M32Q, before i got this kogan second hand for pennies
> In my experience, most monitors have serious overshoot smearing on anything that isn't the balanced overdrive setting, the Rtings review for your screens should tell you if that holds true
> ...



I've just been hearing people parrot the old line about how G-sync modules are dead. Never realized that only true G-sync hardware monitors can do full VRR over the entire refresh range (eg. 1-165Hz). As soon you get down into G-sync Compatible all the monitors are 48-144/165Hz only.

Maybe it really is LFC inappropriately kicking in when it shouldn't be on Freesync panels (since with that VRR range there's no reason for Gsync hardware panels to ever need LFC as a feature). 

Unfortunately all the hardware monitors are way too gamery-focused for my needs and the 32" IPS options are priced out of their goddamn minds


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 1, 2022)

Random question - I may have missed it but does the issue persist on an AMD GPU?


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## tabascosauz (Sep 1, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Random question - I may have missed it but does the issue persist on an AMD GPU?



I can't properly test this. I have Vega iGPUs that can Freesync but they can basically only test 1 game that they can actually push the fps for, and not even at native res.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 1, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I can't properly test this. I have Vega iGPUs that can Freesync but they can basically only test 1 game that they can actually push the fps for, and not even at native res.


Oh. Pity.


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## Valantar (Sep 1, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I can't properly test this. I have Vega iGPUs that can Freesync but they can basically only test 1 game that they can actually push the fps for, and not even at native res.


What, you're not willing to buy a new high end GPU just to test this?


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 1, 2022)

I can take it off of his hands when he is done with it too!


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## mechtech (Sep 1, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> S2721DGF has PWM but its frequency is way too high, not noticeable, I also run high brightness way above the PWM range.
> M32Q has no PWM.
> 
> S2721DGF has no backlight strobing/ELMB/BFI altogether.
> ...


Interesting stuff


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## tabascosauz (Sep 21, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> After weeks of tearing my hair out I think I *might *have accidentally found the culprit to my chronic G-sync flickering:
> 
> Typical suggestions are "expand the Freesync range to prevent LFC" (not helpful, FPS never goes nearly that low for the duration of the flickering) or "get a monitor with actual G-sync module". Answer was apparently to just turn HAGS off. All the flickering stopped.
> 
> ...



As a follow up......disabling HAGS and enabling VRR in Windows graphics settings works fairly well in removing flicker, but still required the fullscreen hack in Genshin in order to trigger G-sync (-window-mode exclusive launch args). At some point windowed G-sync simply stopped working altogether (not that it was a good solution due to even worse flicker).

The new Win 11 22H2 update finally addresses the problem of these non-fullscreen games:





Now there's no more need to force fullscreen, set G-sync to windowed mode and G-sync works.

It's still a little early to tell, but it seems to be the real solution for flicker. Input lag looks good so far (though Reflex is still doing most of the work), performance is about the same, and alt-tab is obviously much, much faster and more reliable (with forcing -window-mode exclusive, often times it's buggy and alt-tab will freeze and crash the game/entire desktop). Also no more need to alt+enter twice every time loading the game (when forcing fullscreen, the game pops itself once out of fullscreen past the loading screen).


Who knew Macrohard would come in clutch to fix incompetent game devs' mistakes?


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## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 21, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> As a follow up......disabling HAGS and enabling VRR in Windows graphics settings works fairly well in removing flicker, but still required the fullscreen hack in Genshin in order to trigger G-sync (-window-mode exclusive launch args). At some point windowed G-sync simply stopped working altogether (not that it was a good solution due to even worse flicker).
> 
> The new Win 11 22H2 update finally addresses the problem of these non-fullscreen games:
> 
> ...



Great, now I have both "Macrohard" in my search history and the shame of having to look it up.


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## Mussels (Sep 22, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> As a follow up......disabling HAGS and enabling VRR in Windows graphics settings works fairly well in removing flicker, but still required the fullscreen hack in Genshin in order to trigger G-sync (-window-mode exclusive launch args). At some point windowed G-sync simply stopped working altogether (not that it was a good solution due to even worse flicker).
> 
> The new Win 11 22H2 update finally addresses the problem of these non-fullscreen games:
> 
> ...


Those settings only apply to games ran from the windows store, IIRC

I dont have that new setting, curious


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## tabascosauz (Sep 22, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Those settings only apply to games ran from the windows store, IIRC
> 
> I dont have that new setting, curious



Are you on 22H2?

It's not a Windows store game, and the difference is pretty cut and dry. Disable the feature, reboot, and G-sync is kaput. The new feature or any of the articles on it don't say anything about UWP or Store exclusivity, only that it applies to DX10/11 windowed games.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 22, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Great, now I have both "Macrohard" in my search history and the shame of having to look it up.


Of course I knew exactly what that meant! 

Any word found on the internet you need to look up? Incognito mode. It doesn't matter what you think it means. 

Although - it led me down a rabbit hole which you can find the results of - on the funny videos thread.


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## Mussels (Sep 23, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Are you on 22H2?
> 
> It's not a Windows store game, and the difference is pretty cut and dry. Disable the feature, reboot, and G-sync is kaput. The new feature or any of the articles on it don't say anything about UWP or Store exclusivity, only that it applies to DX10/11 windowed games.


Am now

In the past that settings area was UWP only, seems it's not now


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## tabascosauz (Oct 2, 2022)

Some upgrades came down the pipe

Table: got a wood butcher block to replace the hollow particleboard IKEA top. Had known I could get something like this for $200usd and DIY it in a day, I would have never bought the IDÅSEN top. $200usd for a 1.75" block of rubberwood, vs. $150cad for a 1.1" half-hollow piece of cardboard.

The Blackbox for my VKB Gunfighter mk3 took a bit of thinking - I used to have it taped basically in the middle of my desk due to the interface cable not being that long. But having it velcro'd to the underside is a much better position if I decide to get the T-rudders at some point.

Also didn't want to stick things to the wood if I could avoid it, so the two USB 3.0 extensions for joystick/throttle go on the monitor arm (god bless post-type stands). I never realized how my dependence on USB has obscenely ballooned in the past few years. Out of 19 total USB ports I can use, there are only 5 that are not constantly plugged into - minus another 2 for stuff I plug in often (my X60R for some games, and my SD card reader), and minus another 2 for HOTAS.










------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New CPU:

This wasn't quite an "impulse buy".........but maybe not that thought-out either.





Now that it's running -30 all cores and 100W/65A/90A, it behaves differently compared to the 5900X:

Much lower Vcore generally. After CO, 1.2V or below at all times. 
Slightly lower idle power. About 20W, vs. high 20s to 30W on 5900X.
Slightly lower and more consistent idle temps.
Less spikes in temps and clock.
Much lower power in games. Usually no higher than 50W ever (40W ish in a lot of games), compared to 60-100W for 5900X ST games.
Much lower temps in most CPU-demanding games. From 70-85C, to no more than 65C usually. 
Higher GPU utilization (?) in some games
Noticeably better performance in worst case gaming scenarios (e.g. cluttered minecraft servers, SC2 custom zombie games)
More consistent FPS, less prolonged FPS dips (e.g. MW, outdoor market on Gap map in Sandstorm) in some games.
Generally smoother experience across all games
Good core temp deltas
However:

Unimpressive benchmark scores
Unimpressive DRAM latency (automatic +4 or +5ns) 
Doesn't seem capable of booting 1900 FCLK (still not sure why or what to blame, board does 4000 fine with 5900X, and VSOC is low even at 3733 (<1.05V))
Hotter in some all-core loads
PBO and CO completely locked out (however, PBO2 tuner can still modify SMU directly on the fly in WIndows)
Boost seems to behave very differently - Fmax seems to treat 4450 as the limit unless pure ST load is started and it moves up closer to 4550, boost is not very aggressive (more similar to Zen 2), game clocks are low even for Windows 11, cache clocks seem quite disconnected from core clocks in games (unlike other Zen 3 parts)


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## tabascosauz (Nov 4, 2022)

So in an _unassuming and routine bugfix update_, Mihoyo decided to remove all other AA (temporarily) and add *FSR 2.0*

in *Genshin Impact*
a *mobile Unity game* from *2020*
that makes terrible use of CPU and GPU resources and is still locked to 60fps on PC for zero good reason
in which G-sync took 2 years after launch to finally run properly, and not of Mihoyo's doing but Microsoft's unexpected benevolence in Windows 11





..................meanwhile, Activision opted for *FSR 1.0*

in *MW2*
a *AAA game* from *2022*
that ironically has up-to-date implementations DLSS 2.4 and XeSS
where Nvidia performance is questionable with launch drivers, even though the game has been out for 2 weeks (including campaign access)
and Nvidia's new drivers are even worse and borderline unusable due to widespread, random instances of flickering over large parts of the screen





Recent 6800/6800XT/6900XT price drops, MW2 performance on Radeon, and today's announcement of 7900XT - must be God's way of telling me that all of Nvidia's driver team fled to AMD, and that red is now the only choice.

what
a
time
to
be
alive


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## tabascosauz (Nov 30, 2022)

It's always the waiting that kills me..........I know I want in on this Caselabs revival, but which case?

S3: tried and tested and my dream case, but WCing actually seems to be a bit challenging (especially dual rads). Air works fine, I know I won't be waterblocking this 3070 Ti (probably ever), air cooling for GPUs isn't exactly ideal but I think it can be done with a vented panel on that side.
S5: way too friggin huge for a dead form factor (I think in the last 4 generations, the only confidence-inspiring mATX has been the Gene) 
X2M: tried and tested, provides comfortable amount of space for WC, but proportions are weird, and 2+ slot GPUs are going to be a problem. Inverted layout is nice to have, but presents problems for preventing GPU sag
X2: is coming, but might come out later than the already-released cases, is the perfect size but will probably not fit my GPU, has the same problems for 2+ slot GPUs, no flexbay
X5: ditto, a bit more space than X2 and possibility for mATX, but also probably will not fit a 300mm GPU, no flexbay

Anyway, picked up a few things for an interim solution while I wait:

Openbenchtable Mini: got one as my current testbenches are too honking big, and I do need to move out of the Cerberus to test bigger air coolers
Thermalright PA120: regardless of what my next case is, C14S's time is over as it's really not up to the task of handling higher end CPUs these days (5800X reaches maximum perf at like 105W PPT, it's a hilariously low power CPU). I love the looks of this cooler
3 x Phanteks T30: needs no introduction, absolute king of 120s at the moment, I am really appreciating the daisy chain ability and the 3 different speed modes. Even coming from Noctua, the build quality of these fans is insane - they feel like 140s, not 120s, built like an absolute tank. 
So far it looks like 2 x T30s @ 1050rpm are able to keep up with 2 x A14s @ 850rpm. Doesn't look that impressive on paper, but the higher speed T30s are already appreciably quieter than the A14s. 

I'm not sure what it is about the A14 (credit where credit's due, it's really an old timer and Noctua really needs to replace them soon), but it's just a terrible case fan. It needs a lot of vibration decoupling or else it starts droning like mad starting at just 800rpm. Great rad fan though (as long as it's gasketed properly to provide that decoupling), and great heatsink fan.


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## tabascosauz (Dec 11, 2022)

Wrapping up the year with a little midlife refresh of my main setup as we enter the waiting phase.

Things never go according to plan and the T30s are no exception. It's a bit too much of a chore to get them onto heatsinks, and doing so risks severely bending fins/fan clips. For now, one is doing RAM duty at 600rpm, and the other two are in storage.

Mounting the T30 on the OBT took a bit of thinking. The mounts are meant for something that is inherently threaded (ie. rads or fans on rads). Took a moment to think, then went to Home Depot to pick up some 6-32 nuts for the long rad screws that Phanteks provides. Works perfectly. 

If I get a FC140, they will be going on that cooler. If I don't, they will be case fans.








The PA120 didn't work out; the U12A was a compromise, but it's such a nice package that it's probably a keeper. 5800X3D does not warrant more cooling.

Finally, the incumbent 5800X3D and everyone's favourite Impact:





It was very surprising to see that the mounting hardware for the U12A Chromax is also matte black. Didn't expect that.

Maybe there will be a 7900XT or FC140 in the new year - just don't foresee anything else changing before Caselabs relaunches. Sorry X670E Gene, I'm just not interested in a Mercury S5.


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## Mussels (Dec 11, 2022)

5800x3D? ONE OF US!

That thing looks like a modern art sculpture, the x3D is a fantastic gaming choice - it only heats up in AVX loads and barely sips the juice for gaming so it's ideal for SFF


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## tabascosauz (Dec 11, 2022)

Mussels said:


> That thing looks like a modern art sculpture



Right after I ordered the Openbenchtable under black friday discount I immediately remembered that the Motif Monument exists, and had a fleeting moment of regret. Because that case is the real modern art masterpiece









						Motif Monument
					

The Motif Monument is an open PC chassis for Mini-ITX motherboards designed and built in the USA. The purpose of this design is to present small form factor components in a unique and elegant configuration. A finished build with this chassis is meant to function as a showpiece computer without...



					yuelbeaststore.com
				




But like I said, it was only fleeting, because it costs like twice as much, long GPUs look really really wacky, GPU airflow is shit, probably less sturdy than OBT, and is much less versatile than the OBT. From now on I refuse to pay $300usd for anything that isn't Caselabs



Mussels said:


> it's ideal for SFF



if everything goes according to plan, we will be the very embodiment of anti-SFF in a year's time


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## tabascosauz (Dec 15, 2022)

Mussels said:


> it's ideal for SFF





tabascosauz said:


> we will be the very embodiment of anti-SFF in a year's time



I think I may have already found what I'm looking for. Fingers crossed, and we won't have to wait until next year


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