# Linux Developers Threaten to Pull "Kill Switch"



## xkm1948 (Sep 23, 2018)

Source: HardOCP

https://www.hardocp.com/news/2018/09/23/linux_developers_threaten_to_pull_kill_switch/


Man this is getting out of control.


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## king of swag187 (Sep 23, 2018)

That article made me chuckle, it was so full of BS lol


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## Vya Domus (Sep 23, 2018)

This sort of stuff truly makes my head hurt. What is to be gained by doing all this ?


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## Frick (Sep 23, 2018)

They are basically upset because they don't get to call people retards in a profesionally sanctioned environment anymore. Linus was a giant dick and even him thinking about his ways should make others to do the same.

It's like people bragging about how tough their workplace is and how you must be an asshole to survive and how that is fundementally a good thing because "it gets the job done". Sure you don't alwayd have to sweettalk everyone, but "You're wrong, here's why." is better than "You're a retard and shouldn't have kids". A different excuse is how they aren't socially adept or that they are on the autist spectrum, but to that I say bullCRAP. Some people have such issues for realz but a) they can learn and b) there is bo excuse to be insulting in a professional environment, ever, no matter the problem.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 23, 2018)

Frick said:


> They are basically upset because they don't get to call people retards



If only it was just that. Afraid too many political motives are hidden under this trivial banner.


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## R-T-B (Sep 23, 2018)

Frick said:


> They are basically upset because they don't get to call people retards in a profesionally sanctioned environment anymore. Linus was a giant dick and even him thinking about his ways should make others to do the same.
> 
> It's like people bragging about how tough their workplace is and how you must be an asshole to survive and how that is fundementally a good thing because "it gets the job done". Sure you don't alwayd have to sweettalk everyone, but "You're wrong, here's why." is better than "You're a retard and shouldn't have kids". A different excuse is how they aren't socially adept or that they are on the autist spectrum, but to that I say bullCRAP. Some people have such issues for realz but a) they can learn and b) there is bo excuse to be insulting in a professional environment, ever, no matter the problem.



I agree, and that article strikes me as sensationalist.  90% certain nothing will happen except maybe putting a reasonable filter on Linus.  This article is designed to rile up certain people, IMO.



Vya Domus said:


> If only it was just that. Afraid too many political motives try to hide themselves under this trivial banner.



Unfortunately, it's exactly that a lot more often than you'd believe.  Part of why I stay the frick away from facebook.


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## Deleted member 178884 (Sep 23, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Man this is getting out of control.


Literally my day today


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 23, 2018)

BS...

Linus will fork the mainline and every normal thinking coder wanting to earn money will team up with him. The security patches will be pouring in Linus maintained fork and the money will start flowing into that fork from companies that use Linux. Simple as that. The smell of money will solve the issues. And money in Linux isn't that overwhelming much.

Linux Foundation with their CoC can simply screw with themselves, depending on their own frigging taste. This is Code space, it has no place for sex, race or whatever... don't mix your daily social shit issues into work and imaginary space meant for machines doing their job, people moan about stuff that's been recompiled to machine code zeros and ones. People cannot often get that. They cannot play those cards everywhere, the world around the globe isn't the same also, especially China, Russia that doesn't suffer from LGBTQIA issues, same for India. It's not accepted at all. It applies also to Eastern EU and Finland. The point is... it has no impact on the most of the world. What's the fuss?

They could spare time fixing damn non working kernel drivers better and ban those idiot devs who accepted them into kernel and sparing my time often blacklisting native kernel drivers and then after each update doing that again and again compile a module... How you cannot become rude and use some strong words on some devs? Linus does that, and I don't care as long it works out and is first of all FREE.


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## R-T-B (Sep 23, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> BS...
> 
> Linus will fork the mainline and every normal thinking coder wanting to earn money will team up with him. The security patches will be pouring in Linus maintained fork and the money will start flowing into that fork from companies that use Linux. Simple as that. The smell of money will solve the issues. And money in Linux isn't that overwhelming much.
> 
> ...



Thing is Linus's conduct has actually been directly detrimental to good coding at times.  He can be at times, unreliable.

Pretty sure this initial code of conduct is targeting that far more than the theoretical code of conduct other groups are pushing for.

As I said, this article is designed to rile people up.  And it may be working.


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## dj-electric (Sep 23, 2018)

HardOCP generating drama again?


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## StrayKAT (Sep 23, 2018)

lol.. I was pointing out this CoC the other day in another thread. Forgot which now? I even mentioned Linus, before this apology.. and how it stood up all of these years merely on Meritocracy (which is what all open source has and should do). Guess that wasn't good enough for them.

Good luck with trying to unscrew yourself now.

edit: Telling from the replies in this thread, this is worse than I thought. It's not "drama" when a project like this loses and/or scares off the "brain trust". And those who stick around for now will be some of the ones kicked out later too, when they have a minor slip or someone digs up an offensive forum post from 15 years ago and complains. There's no forgiveness with this.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> lol.. I was pointing out this CoC the other day in another thread. Forgot which now? I even mentioned Linus, before this apology.. and how it stood up all of these years merely on Meritocracy (which is what all open source has and should do). Guess that wasn't good enough for them.
> 
> Good luck with trying to unscrew yourself now.
> 
> edit: Telling from the replies in this thread, this is worse than I thought. It's not "drama" when a project like this loses and/or scares off the "brain trust". And those who stick around for now will be some of the ones kicked out later too, when they have a minor slip or someone digs up an offensive forum post from 15 years ago and complains. There's no forgiveness with this.



Time will tell, but my bet is nothing changes.


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## Aquinus (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> He can be at times, unreliable.


I believe the word you're looking for is "asshole". He's talked about his behavior but, along with not having manners, that's just who he is and he's not going to sugarcoat things for people. He said something along the lines of "people who are offended by what I have to say, should be." Part of me is with him but, part of me isn't. What he says are the kinds of things I would think but, probably wouldn't say.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Time will tell, but my bet is nothing changes.



If it's already powerful enough to shame the very creator of the project, compel him to get "counseling", and walk away from coding Linux for now. If he isn't safe, no one is. Besides that, it's so vague as to be easily weaponized. If you just made a Code of Conduct that forbids criminal behavior, then we're getting into specifics and it's much easier to enforce properly (because it follows actual laws). Right Think and including subjective feelings into the equation is another thing entirely.

Besides that, you're going to want the jerks who can patch a security hole. Or whatever niche problem that needs to be fixed asap. Businesses especially. It's not going to matter whether he's nice or not.


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 24, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> I believe the word you're looking for is "asshole". He's talked about his behavior but, along with not having manners, that's just who he is and he's not going to sugarcoat things for people. He said something along the lines of "people who are offended by what I have to say, should be." Part of me is with him but, part of me isn't. What he says are the kinds of things I would think but, probably wouldn't say.



The problem is the fact... it is free, you cannot scold normally, no salary, bonuses or whatever if you push a bad code if it would be for a normal company, so it seems kind of unnatural commie like structure. The only thing that remains at git is simply shame using commits.


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## Aquinus (Sep 24, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> The problem is the fact... it is free, you cannot scold normally, no salary, bonuses or whatever if you push a bad code if it would be for a normal company, so it seems kind of unnatural commie like structure. The only thing that remains at git is simply shame using commits.


You're saying that like people who write kernel code aren't paid money. There are some contributors who do it for nothing but, there are a lot of devs paid by companies to work on the kernel. You would be surprised at how much Intel employees contribute.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

FreeBSD partly ran on donations. They adopted a CoC as well a few months back and donations have dropped.

The good thing about BSD though is it is easily forked and can still be "BSD". Unlike Linux.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> You're saying that like people who write kernel code aren't paid money. There are some contributors who do it for nothing but, there are a lot of devs paid by companies to work on the kernel. You would be surprised at how much Intel employees contribute.


They kind of have to for Intel to remain competitive in the super computing/database sector.


I don't like how this article is literally two paragraphs.  It has no meat.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They kind of have to for Intel to remain competitive in the super computing/database sector.
> 
> 
> I don't like how this article is literally two paragraphs.  It has no meat.



Well, there are discussions spread across the net now. 

Here's a longer one. https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/


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## AsRock (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Time will tell, but my bet is nothing changes.



Like to think that but these people are getting the changes for crazy BS.  For example New York has 31 genders now, sure it's going get worse. To think 31 more way's to offend people because, well how can you tell.

I would suggest them wearing a label but i guess that be further insult.

Anyways like to think nothing will come of it, but the shit that's going don alll over t Europe \ UK and the USA anythings possible.

OMG to think Trumps on about re opening the mines, better get the foreigners in as everyone is turning in to illogical dumb asses.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Sep 24, 2018)

Is this how hardocp normally operates? That "article" and forum discussion is a train wreck.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Well, there are discussions spread across the net now.
> 
> Here's a longer one. https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/


https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/linus-torvalds-takes-a-break-from-linux/
I think the Code of Conduct was a wake up call for Linus.  He admitted to violating two in his letter:


> *Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
> * Public or private harassment


The moment he signed, he maybe got banned:


> Maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or permanently any contributor for other behaviors that they deem inappropriate, threatening, offensive, or harmful.


Maybe the new Code of Conduct was inspired by "non-binary" people but him stepping away from Linux is not.  He acted out against other maintainers, has a history of doing it often, and he's finally acknowledging he needs to do something about it.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/linus-torvalds-takes-a-break-from-linux/
> I think the Code of Conduct was a wake up call for Linus.  He admitted to violating two in his letter:
> 
> The moment he signed, he maybe got banned:
> ...



If you think getting rid of Linus on his own project is a good thing, so be it. I have no horse in the race. It'll be entertaining either way for me.

I also find it interesting that the signers of the new agreement are corporate (facebook, Intel, VMWare). It's probably more than a takeover by mere SJW individuals.

Signed-off-by: Chris Mason <clm@fb.com> Signed-off-by: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com> Signed-off-by: Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> Signed-off-by: Olof Johansson <olof@lxom.net> Signed-off-by: Steven Rostedt (VMware) <rostedt@goodmis.org> Signed-off-by: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> Signed-off-by: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> If it's already powerful enough to shame the very creator of the project, compel him to get "counseling", and walk away from coding Linux for now. If he isn't safe, no one is.



Most coders can control themselves in public.

Again I don't see this changing much.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Most coders can control themselves in public.
> 
> Again I don't see this changing much.



It's not about self-control. You can still offend people without even knowing. You could either just be bad at social cues (especially through a screen.. but autistic people especially aren't even known for it face to face) or you could not even know all of the rules. Or maybe the rules change day-to-day.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

AsRock said:


> Like to think that but these people are getting the changes for crazy BS. For example New York has 31 genders now, sure it's going get worse. To think 31 more way's to offend people because, well how can you tell.



Most aren't going to give a shit beyond if you completly, repeatedly ignore their designation of choice.  But that is honestly completely irrelevant to this discussion.



StrayKAT said:


> You can still offend people without even knowing.


Yeah?  Ever heard of "Sorry?" That's really the universal answer to your problem.

I'n Autistic Spectrum and even I know this.  You offend someone?  Apologize.  They still mad?  Their problem, not yours.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

No, he's taking a break.  I think he's aiming to learn how not to turn hostile. 

Buuuuuutttt, back on topic: https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/



> Additionally when said banned contributors joined the Linux team, they
> were under the impression that it was a meritocracy: in-fact this belief
> was stated or ratified by those within the governing body regarding
> Linux when the contributors began their work (whatever that body was at
> ...


Yeah...Killswitch indeed.

What it really boils down to is whether or not the Code of Conduct conflicts with the meritocracy commits were submitted as.  I can't answer that.  Only the contributors can.  Linux could suffer a death by a thousand cuts if contributors feel it does.


Looking at the Code of Conduct, I see it as a normal business contract.  In a business setting, you can't be attacking other members for any reason what-so-ever.  Disputes need to be settled amicably, not forcfully.  Yes, the preamble includes a lot of SJW keywords that, in my opinion, don't belong there but the meat of it is par for the course.

If the Code of Conduct is wielded as an instrument of social justice, then yes, developers will pull out and likely take their contributions with them.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> No, he's taking a break.  I think he's aiming to learn how not to turn hostile.









edit: 



R-T-B said:


> Most aren't going to give a shit beyond if you completly, repeatedly ignore their designation of choice.  But that is honestly completely irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> 
> Yeah?  Ever heard of "Sorry?" That's really the universal answer to your problem.
> ...



Sorry isn't good enough. Linus apologized and now he's gone (for who knows how long).. and people are still mad, mocking his apology. Look up Twitter posts commenting on it.

In an ideal world, that would indeed be good enough. But hurt feelings isn't what this is really about anyways. It's about power.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Most aren't going to give a shit beyond if you completly, repeatedly ignore their designation of choice.  But that is honestly completely irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> 
> Yeah?  Ever heard of "Sorry?" That's really the universal answer to your problem.
> ...


I agree, the problem with saying Sorry is that it means swallowing a bit of pride. Than there is the crowd that takes the "I am better than you and that means I am right and you are wrong" approach, you can see this a lot here on TPU too. Yep no wants to say Sorry because it makes them look weak.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

> Sorry isn't good enough. Linus apologized and now he's gone (for who knows how long).. and people are still mad, mocking his apology. Look up Twitter posts commenting on it.
> 
> In an ideal world, that would indeed be good enough. But hurt feelings isn't what this is really about anyways. It's about power.



Linus talked the apology talk before.  The issue here is his behavior has never changed.  Thus the apology is hollow and means nothing.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Linus talked the apology talk before.  The issue here is his behavior has never changed.  Thus the apology is hollow and means nothing.



He never should have apologized to begin with. Because it'll never be good enough. Now he's screwed.

If it ever got bad enough, people should have forked and did their own thing, shutting him out of that. He could have simply remained the jerk that he was, and the market would have shifted elsewhere. 

Lets take the recently deceased Terry A Davis. The creator of TempleOS. This guy was completely off his rocker (schizophrenic), toxic on levels rarely seen... and thus, people didn't work with him. 

Fair warning.. he was disgusting and offensive beyond words:










If Linus was so awful, he should have suffered the same lonely fate as this guy. But he wasn't. He's just bad enough to gripe about.. and destroy his project from the inside apparently. And now you have corporations with more power than he does at the moment. Good job.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> He never should have apologized to begin with. Because it'll never be good enough. Now he's screwed.



I don't agree with that at all...  but meh, believe what you will.  Time will show the truth.



StrayKAT said:


> Good job.



Blame Linus, not those trying to pick up the pieces.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't agree with that at all.



There's plenty of examples where apologizing just invites something worse. At least in these wider public spaces. Be it with developers, or celebrities, or politicians..

edit: Umm, looks like you edited. I'll just keep this here though. Just acknowledging that I read both posts.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

I did ninja edit sorry.

All I'll say is the best defense is to make your apologies mean something.  If you apologize repeteadly and change nothing "boy who cried wolf" theory does begin to work against you.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

lol.. Both of them in the same screen. A match made in.. hell?


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

^ That is why he stepped away.  Completely uncalled for and I think Linus realizes that now.


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## Caring1 (Sep 24, 2018)

Expecting someone on the spectrum to change their behaviours even though they know they can be offensive, is like expecting a depressed person to feel better after you tell them to cheer up.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

Caring1 said:


> Expecting someone on the spectrum to change their behaviours even though they know they can be offensive, is like expecting a depressed person to feel better after you tell them to cheer up.



True in certain aspects.  But you know as well as I do some things can still be learned / behaviors modified.  It's not like we're incapable of learning...  heh.

Also, is Linus on the spectrum?  That would surprise me.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> True in certain aspects.  But you know as well as I do some things can still be learned / behaviors modified.  It's not like we're incapable of learning...  heh.
> 
> Also, is Linus on the spectrum?  That would surprise me.



I don't know if anyone has said he was. I kind of think Jungian types could apply more.. He just seems to value thinking over emotional information. To me, it's more about lack of intelligence on that level. I don't think this always means someone is on the autism spectrum.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I don't know if anyone has said he was. I kind of think Jungian types could apply more.. He just seems to value thinking over emotional information. To me, it's more about lack of intelligence on that level. I don't think this always means someone is on the autism spectrum.



I may have read some implication that wasn't there in caring1's comment.  Apologies.


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## Solaris17 (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Sorry isn't good enough. Linus apologized and now he's gone (for who knows how long).. and people are still mad, mocking his apology.



and who wouldt be? Linus may be the founding father but he is no saint. There are equally qualified core team members. The dude is straight hostile. 

As for the CoC I'm not worried about it honestly. I agree with @FordGT90Concept I read the CoC and this is pretty standard. Not to mention givin the fluidity of linux if someone steps out then someone else that is willing to abide will step in to take the function on.

The reality is this affects Linux in almost no way. There wasnt drama to begin with from what little I've seen. Only the occasional rant by Linus on kernel commits. Not to mention again. Even if a bunch of devs leave they will just mainline fork. A pure mainline fork will probably only happen in the event of "mass walkout" which isn't likely but if it did happen they would more then likely just all go to the mainline fork that isn't overseen by the linux foundation.

and Lest we forget people like conical, suse, RHEL, BSD. Dont take upstream commits to core code as the gospel those modifications are looked over by there respective teams before being available in the REPOS.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> The dude is straight hostile.



I'm curious how many "missed opportunities" it created? What developer did he chase off.. that would have made Linux so much better? Seems like Linux has been fine under his leadership. More than fine. Something grown out of a dude's college dorm (or whatever) has managed to compete with billion dollar companies. What more do people want? He is a jerk, but he still valued good code. I'm sure he would have included things for that alone. If he didn't, there's probably a good reason for it...even if he's nasty about it.

edit:

And.... here we go already.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1042769399596437504
A protest is brewing for Ted Tso, a kernel contributor.. for past comments that apparently make him a "rape apologist". Simply for being a typical egghead who was trying to group statistics on what constituted as rape or not.

As these things tend to go, I'm sure he's already guilty. Case closed. Goodbye Ted.. they'll just have to find another expert on filesystems....who works for free. They grow on trees.


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## notb (Sep 24, 2018)

I have zero worries of this having any negative impact on Linux quality. In fact, I totally believe it''ll be very positive in the end.


Ferrum Master said:


> Linus will fork the mainline and every normal thinking coder wanting to earn money will team up with him. The security patches will be pouring in Linus maintained fork and the money will start flowing into that fork from companies that use Linux.


More likely scenario: he forks, no one cares, he keeps being himself and is ostracized from the environment. And 20 years from now the new generation of coders doesn't know where the OS name came from.
Wouldn't it be better for both Linus and Linux, if he just moved aside and remain the "founding father"? You know... TEDx talks, college lectures, maybe some nice job at Google, Red Hat or Intel? Surely, there isn't a better candidate for some "Linux evangelist" position.


> And money in Linux isn't that overwhelming much.


What?! 


> How you cannot become rude and use some strong words on some devs?


It's called propriety.
And Linus is really just a total opposite of how most Fins are. Too much fame? He wasn't always like that.


> Linus does that, and I don't care as long it works out and is first of all FREE.


Well, eveyone is entitled to have an opinion. 
I don't care for Linux being free. I'd gladly pay just as much as I pay for Windows, if it was so refined and offered the same level of compatibility.


StrayKAT said:


> I'm curious how many "missed opportunities" it created? What developer did he chase off.. that would have made Linux so much better? Seems like Linux has been fine under his leadership. More than fine. Something grown out of a dude's college dorm (or whatever) has managed to compete with billion dollar companies.


Linux hasn't been a competition for "billion dollar companies" almost from the moment it got popular. It's being driven by billion dollar companies. 
The 2 largest contributors are Intel and Red Hat - they're responsible for 20-25% of changes.
Samsung, IBM and SUSE add another 10%. And the list goes on.
Non-corporate contributors are well below 10% now - less than half of the result from 2010.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I'm curious how many "missed opportunities" it created? What developer did he chase off.. that would have made Linux so much better? Seems like Linux has been fine under his leadership. More than fine. Something grown out of a dude's college dorm (or whatever) has managed to compete with billion dollar companies. What more do people want? He is a jerk, but he still valued good code. I'm sure he would have included things for that alone. If he didn't, there's probably a good reason for it...even if he's nasty about it.
> 
> edit:
> 
> ...


It backfired:


			
				Wildhart said:
			
		

> Calling someone a Rape Apologist is harassment and in violation of the new CoC..





			
				Devon McClure said:
			
		

> Per the new Linux Code of Conduct, "unacceptable behavior" includes "insulting/derogatory comments" and "personal or political attacks". It seems to me as though calling another contributor a "rape apologist" fits both criteria.





			
				Cola said:
			
		

> Calling someone a "rape apologist" is insulting, derogatory, and personally attacking, especially publicly, and goes against the code of conduct.


They have as much reason to remove Sharp as they did Torvalds.  Honestly, they need to.  The only way to change the culture is to reprimand the people perpetrating it.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's already been pointed out that Sage Sharp is violating the Code of Conduct by calling Ted Tso a "rape apologist."  Circular logic is circular.



Regardless if it succeeds or not, the fact that it's already even being used this way is the "weaponization" I was warning about. All you need is a big enough mob to get an issue rolling your way.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

Linux foundation has to be careful, however, because the code could soon be filled with pot holes because of copyrights.


I think Ferrum Master was right.  When Torvalds comes back, he's going to fork Linux.  It's the only path forward I see working.  Not unlike how Libre Office divorced itself from Oracle Inc.  Linux needs to divorce itself from SJWs.  I think that divorce also includes the Code of Conduct.  I see it only existing to politicize and create a power struggle over commits.  It's naturally hostile to the process of creating open source software.  Some developers like Torvalds may be openly hostile to other contributors but the code he writes is for the collective good.  As long as that remains the case, it fundamentally doesn't matter what demons Torvalds is dealing with.  "No one likes to see how the sausage is made."


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## AlwaysHope (Sep 24, 2018)

From bottom paragraph of that story.

"The Contributor Covenant is an agreement to implement a special Code of Conduct aimed at changing the predominantly white, straight, and male face of programming. "

Death to meritocracy is what CoC is about.  Get ready for even more bugs in code than what already is! 

IF "white, straight, and male" is where the coding talent is.... then so be it. FFS, just want good code, get over that identity politics rubbish!


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Sorry isn't good enough. Linus apologized and now he's gone (for who knows how long).. and people are still mad, mocking his apology


Maybe they feel his apology wasn’t sincere?  Also, just giving an apology doesn’t always absolve someone of receiving some type of punitive action.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

AlwaysHope said:


> From bottom paragraph of that story.
> 
> "The Contributor Covenant is an agreement to implement a special Code of Conduct aimed at changing the predominantly white, straight, and male face of programming. "
> 
> ...



I like the part where it argues against meritocracy because ONLY white, male programmers have enough free time to build their skills (privilege), and therefore "merit" is unfair.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 24, 2018)

Bare in mind that the Code of Conduct that was adopted was almost copied verbatim from Contributor Covenant's.  I don't think the actual Code of Conduct is inflammatory but the language on Contributor Convenant's website is (basically an anti-meritocracy website that cites "Geek Feminist" as a source).


Let's take a closer look at what Sharp said: "One Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board member who did not  sign off on the patch is Ted Tso, who is a rape apologist: [link to Geek Feminist definition of rape apologist]"

The way I read that is "I submitted a patch to remove words I consider bad to the Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board and Ted Tso (one member of ten) didn't sign it.  Guilty by omission! He's a rape apologist!"

So juvenile.


I looked more at Contributor Convenant's website and I don't see how this is a solution for anything.  The intent is to end the meritocracy but behavior of contributors have little to do with which changes that are actually committed.  There needs to be some form of consensus building and if it isn't meritocracy, what is it?  The Code of Conduct doesn't answer that question.  In an open source community, how can it even be binding?  Someone has to render judgement on other contributors contributions and that's hardly a free environment.  Here's the Code of Conflict that the Code of Conduct replaces.  Code of Conduct basically just adds a lot of fluffy language that Code of Conflict summed up with "be excellent to each other." My understanding is that the meritocracy isn't going away and that's because LF-TAB has to keep corporate interests in mind.

So reading all of this stuff, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what it all means.  I'm coming up blank.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 24, 2018)

AlwaysHope said:


> FFS, just want good code, get over that identity politics rubbish!


This will never happen as long at there are arrogant people contributing "good code".


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Man this is getting out of control.


You're not wrong..


R-T-B said:


> This article is designed to rile up certain people, IMO.


Only the "woke" get riled up. The rest of us have a chuckle.


R-T-B said:


> Part of why I stay the frick away from facebook.


Exactly. Facebook has become little more than cesspool run by a bunch of whiny special-snowflake retards who can't tell the difference between their butt and a hole in the ground and frequently have their heads lodged firmly in both.


StrayKAT said:


> You could either just be bad at social cues (especially through a screen.. but autistic people especially aren't even known for it face to face) or you could not even know all of the rules.


Then there's some of us who just don't care because..


StrayKAT said:


> the rules change day-to-day.


..of this.


R-T-B said:


> I'n Autistic Spectrum and even I know this. You offend someone? Apologize. They still mad? Their problem, not yours.


Oh, you have that backwards. If someone is offended, for whatever reason, *they* have the problem. If they actually communicate and share the problem with you, that opens the door to a resolution. But in the end regardless of what you did/said, the one offended is the one with the problem, even if the offending action was deliberate. Instead of letting things roll off like water on a duck's back they allow offense to occur. This is always a sign of a lack of mental, emotional or psychological development.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 24, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> If they actually communicate and share the problem with you, *it still their problem and therefore its ok to ignore...*


shouldnt it be more like this?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2018)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> shouldnt it be more like this?


No, if a problem exists then it needs to be discussed. If a resolution can not be reached, then both parties need to agree to disagree and if needed avoid each other.


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## Athlonite (Sep 24, 2018)

Like 1 & 0's through a transistor so are the days of their lives LOL


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## RejZoR (Sep 24, 2018)

Not really shocked or surprised. SJW's are infesting every pore of computing industry with their indentity politics BS. Linux is not doing sall that great as it's evolving too slowly and having stupid identity politics injected into it, it'll only get even worse.


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## Frick (Sep 24, 2018)

RejZoR said:


> Not really shocked or surprised. SJW's are infesting every pore of computing industry with their indentity politics BS. Linux is not doing sall that great as it's evolving too slowly and having stupid identity politics injected into it, it'll only get even worse.



So it's ok to be an asshole professionally? Go to your job, behave like Linus did and see what happens.


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## hat (Sep 24, 2018)

Frick said:


> So it's ok to be an asshole professionally? Go to your job, behave like Linus did and see what happens.


Judging by what I've seen... well, I probably wouldn't be fired, but I should be. If that's the case, then I don't see why the Linux community didn't "fire" Linus/refuse to work with him, even if it meant branching off to make their flavor of Linux where Linus isn't involved. But maybe that already happened, considering the many distros available. Anyway, it shouldn't require a "Code of Conduct" to figure that out. I don't need a rulebook to determine if I think someone is an asshole or not... and it seems the loud overbearing SJW people are now targeting the Linux community. Maybe 20 years from now I'll get in trouble for something I said somewhere on the net...


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## Vayra86 (Sep 24, 2018)

All this talk about inclusion and gender reminds me of high school and the whole dynamic is just about the same as it always was. Pointless.


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## medi01 (Sep 24, 2018)

Frick said:


> They are basically upset because they don't get to call people retards in a profesionally sanctioned environment anymore. Linus was a giant dick and even him thinking about his ways should make others to do the same.


It isn't about this at all.
CoC is so vague you could ban these two for the joke.
Doesn't matter where, doesn't matter when, even context doesn't matter, there is just a set of vague rules, that are vague on purpose.



R-T-B said:


> Pretty sure this initial code of conduct is targeting that far more than the theoretical code of conduct other groups are pushing for.


It is pushed by SJW type former Intel worker, who couldn't care less about code quality.
Did you even check the OP's link?

"The Contributor Covenant is an agreement to implement a special Code of Conduct *aimed at changing the predominantly white, straight, and male face of programming.* "

It's about genitalia / skin color / sexual orientation of the developers. No f*cks are given about quality of code.
And, Jesus Christ, we are talking about OPEN SOURCE software, created by Linus himself, that anyone can fork and write "better code" for.

"Someone is rude to people" isn't the problem for them. How can you increase "other skin" population like that? *The next step would be to set targets start "hiring" based on gender/sexual orientation/race, let them level the field first*.



R-T-B said:


> Most coders can control themselves in public.


Yeah. Oh wait.
CoC is a weapon for punishing wrongthink, the way Damore was fired from google.



Ferrum Master said:


> Linus will fork the mainline and every normal thinking coder wanting to earn money will team up with him.


Sounds too good to be true...



Frick said:


> So it's ok to be an asshole professionally?


Stop selling harsh comment as confirmed assholery.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2018)

Frick said:


> So it's ok to be an asshole professionally? Go to your job, behave like Linus did and see what happens.


I have and do. One of my jobs, I'm the owner and the boss. At my other job I literally can't be fired without legal action and court judgment. Everyone has bad days, and everyone there has the maturity to understand and often it's just brushed off.



Vayra86 said:


> All this talk about inclusion and gender reminds me of high school and the whole dynamic is just about the same as it always was. Pointless.


Wow, we agree. This is really the root of the problem on a generational basis. The Linux CoC nonsense is nothing and means nothing.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 24, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wow, we agree. This is really the root of the problem on a generational basis. The Linux CoC nonsense is nothing and means nothing.



We have our moments huh


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Regardless if it succeeds or not, the fact that it's already even being used this way is the "weaponization" I was warning about. All you need is a big enough mob to get an issue rolling your way.



I think you are missing the point.  It just got used to prevent that mob mentality you are concerned about.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I think you are missing the point.  It just got used to prevent that mob mentality you are concerned about.



She didn't have a mob yet. It's only a matter time when there will be one though.. maybe not this issue, but something.


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## R-T-B (Sep 24, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh, you have that backwards. If someone is offended, for whatever reason, *they* have the problem. If they actually communicate and share the problem with you, that opens the door to a resolution. But in the end regardless of what you did/said, the one offended is the one with the problem, even if the offending action was deliberate. Instead of letting things roll off like water on a duck's back they allow offense to occur. This is always a sign of a lack of mental, emotional or psychological development.



Not sure I agree with that, and can think of a few pretty clear cut counter examples.



StrayKAT said:


> She didn't have a mob yet. It's only a matter time when there will be one though.. maybe not this issue, but something.



I don't see how it'd make much difference to how you enforce the rules.



StrayKAT said:


> She didn't have a mob yet. It's only a matter time when there will be one though.. maybe not this issue, but something.



I don't see how it'd make much difference to how you enforce the rules.



lexluthermiester said:


> I have and do.



I understand having bad days but one hopes it's not habitual.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 24, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't see how it'd make much difference to how you enforce the rules.



The rules themselves aren't even clear and/or subjective. That's why it's better to just base contracts/violations on actual laws. That CAN be hashed out more objectively.

But go on believing it's OK. I honestly don't mind either way. A part of me wants to see a shitshow.


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## AlwaysHope (Sep 25, 2018)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> This will never happen as long at there are arrogant people contributing "good code".



If so called 'arrogant people' contribute good code, then that's their personality. Judging someone as arrogant can be subjective, in that way it''s a never ending story.


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## notb (Sep 25, 2018)

AlwaysHope said:


> If so called 'arrogant people' contribute good code, then that's their personality. Judging someone as arrogant can be subjective, in that way it''s a never ending story.


"Good code" can also be subjective. 

Simple fact is: all organizations have rules. These rules often lower effectiveness and raise costs. But it's not their goal to improve productivity (profit). Rules are about sustainability. About public image as well. This is important stuff.


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## hat (Sep 25, 2018)

medi01 said:


> *The next step would be to set targets start "hiring" based on gender/sexual orientation/race, let them level the field first*.



Without going into the other two... what the hell does sexual orientation have to do with a job? That literally should not matter, or be anywhere near a job application form. Though I can see it happening in the future... if not already. Gender or race shouldn't matter either, but as far back as I can remember I've had to fill that out. Short of applying for a form of identification, still not sure why it matters. Why do "they" need data on everybody's gender and race?



lexluthermiester said:


> Everyone has bad days, and everyone there has the maturity to understand and often it's just brushed off.



If only more people thought this way. I'll just say I was caught up in a scenario once where there were some loud words coming my way. Did I deserve it? Not really... but it also wasn't a big deal. One of the higher ups approached me about it later and I basically declined to make a big stick out of it... not a big deal. And I still get along with that guy. In fact one of my best friends was a guy I disliked once (he didn't like me much either). Sure that type of thing isn't the same as being constantly harassed about just being who you are every day, but some people really could use thicker skin. Not getting all up in arms about everything is a wonderful character trait.


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## notb (Sep 25, 2018)

hat said:


> Gender or race shouldn't matter either, but as far back as I can remember I've had to fill that out.


Gender is important for HR stuff - like insurance.
I can't comment on race - I never had to fill it and no one here cares, to be honest. Poland is 99% white.

Big picture, or why sex of employees matters:
Men and women have different predisposition and they excel in different tasks or workflows.
Mixed teams have better results.

Also, as an office worked (typical, financial open-space), I can tell you that working in mixed environment is much nicer in general. There's an observable social degradation in homogeneous teams...

Sexual orientation seems to be irrelevant.
The only thing to consider: statistically homosexual people (mostly men) tend to be more focused on career and successful. They're over-represented on management level.
However, it might simply be an effect of not having children.


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## hat (Sep 25, 2018)

I wonder if SJW people would have a problem with that. Now you're classifying groups of people as good at this or that because of who they are (gender, sexual orientation etc) and they're supposed to be good at X. Maybe they should be pushing for abolishing those sections of forms where you fill that kind of stuff in. Although, while there are plenty of anti-discrimination laws in place, I often wonder what would happen if I choose the "prefer not to say" option, if available, on such forums. Because those spaces are there with specific options to fill in, I can't help but think they use them in one way or another in their decision making, otherwise why ask? Why does it matter if I'm gay, straight, or whatever else, or black, white, asian, latino, or even a man or a woman, for that option to even be on said form in the first place?


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 25, 2018)

AlwaysHope said:


> If so called 'arrogant people' contribute good code, then that's their personality. Judging someone as arrogant can be subjective, in that way it''s a never ending story.


I think you took this out of context. Judging is not the point.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 25, 2018)

I can't fathom why females and males would code any differently (or race.. or orientation)... assuming they had the same education.


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## AlwaysHope (Sep 26, 2018)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> I think you took this out of context. Judging is not the point.


Judging is the point. We all make analysis about human behaviors. A judgment is like a conclusion.
How else to we work in teams?



notb said:


> Big picture, or why sex of employees matters:
> Men and women have different predisposition and they excel in different tasks or workflows.
> Mixed teams have better results.



Very true, no arguing against DNA. Biological fact.


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## R-T-B (Sep 26, 2018)

medi01 said:


> Yeah. Oh wait.



Do you have a statistically relevant sample?


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## medi01 (Sep 27, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Do you have a statistically relevant sample?


"Do you have a bunch of peer reviewed articles to disprove my 'right out of ass' comment?".

Sure thing, there are plenty of researchers committing wrongthink and questioning SJW agenda, unpunished,  no problem with that at all, not like it would be censored or something:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1038805168870096896

*Hard to block stats, sample size of 1.6 million:*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1045100085766311936
"No no, our identity politics is not wrong, the evil patriarchy fails to fail girls on average, but manages to fail only those on the top.
Oh, and even in non STEM fields? Jesus, those men are evil"

Pathetic...



hat said:


> Without going into the other two... what the hell does sexual orientation have to do with a job? That literally should not matter, or be anywhere near a job application form.


Yes, and who the f*ck knows your gender/race/color/penis size/vagina metrics/whom do you find attractive/whom do you f*ck/who f*cks you, in a freaking online open source project.

But the goal of the mentioned "project" is to increase number of "united oppressed" presence in open source community, because,, uh, they should be "underrepresented", perhaps.

Oh, another fun fact, wikipedia. Only 13% of editors are female. On a bloody site that anyone can edit, without even registering.
Something very very evil is going on.

Oh, and Uber's computers rig system so that in a totally gender-neutral system female Uber drivers earn 7% less than male Uber drivers.

Oh, and women spend more money than men. Never mind, that doesn't quite fit "oppressed" agenda.


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## AlwaysHope (Sep 29, 2018)

I found this most insightful in to today's polarized political group think throughout the USA.


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## DimBo (Oct 15, 2018)

"The Contributor Covenant is an agreement to implement a special Code of Conduct aimed at changing the predominantly white, straight, and male face of programming. "
To put things straight: they want some people to lose their jobs only because those people happen to be white straight males, did I get that right? Isn't that racism and sexism simultaneously? How come people who wrote that "Covenant" didn't get sued for that?


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## StrayKAT (Oct 15, 2018)

Some Harvard researchers released a study where even they concede that a large number of people dislike political correctness. Americans at least. But I find it difficult to believe it's any different for Europe (and especially Asia)... at least among average citizens. It's the tyranny of a very small segment.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...orities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 15, 2018)

DimBo said:


> "The Contributor Covenant is an agreement to implement a special Code of Conduct aimed at changing the predominantly white, straight, and male face of programming. "
> To put things straight: they want some people to lose their jobs only because those people happen to be white straight males, did I get that right? Isn't that racism and sexism simultaneously? How come people who wrote that "Covenant" didn't get sued for that?


Why would she?  Freedom of speech and all that.  The people actually doing the firing are the ones that could get sued if there's evidence of discrimination in the firing.


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## R-T-B (Oct 15, 2018)

medi01 said:


> "Do you have a bunch of peer reviewed articles to disprove my 'right out of ass' comment?".



What comment was right out of my ass?  The one asking for a larger sample to support your dubious claim?  That's pretty good science, in general.  Thanks for oblidging.  Too bad it doesn't support your original hypothesis (that coders in general can't control themselves in public) but rather is a sort of generalized shotgun style rant against "SJW agendas."  Something I said nothing about.

Oh, and thanks for keeping it mature and impersonal. /s

Let me quote you:

Pathetic.



medi01 said:


> Yes, and who the f*ck knows your gender/race/color/penis size/vagina metrics/whom do you find attractive/whom do you f*ck/who f*cks you, in a freaking online open source project.



I really doubt your claimed work experience based on claims like this.  I certainly have been asked personal questions in any social work context I've been in longterm, online open source projects included.  It's bizzare but to try to deny it happens is folly.



StrayKAT said:


> Some Harvard researchers released a study where even they concede that a large number of people dislike political correctness.



Well, duh.  Of course the majority is going to feel like they always have the right to kick the minorities in any given situation.  Even if they don't phrase it that way, this is nothing new.


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## Vya Domus (Oct 15, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Lets take the recently deceased Terry A Davis. The creator of TempleOS. This guy was completely off his rocker (schizophrenic), toxic on levels rarely seen... and thus, people didn't work with him.



You should mention the other side as well. His viewers made everything in their power such that he becomes as toxic as possible. You shouldn't use him as an example, the guy was mentally ill and surrounded by trolls and no lifers that had nothing better to do than bait him to say/do dumb shit.



StrayKAT said:


> I can't fathom why females and males would code any differently (or race.. or orientation)... assuming they had the same education.



There are reasons, actually. But they are typically too taboo to mention in this day and age, which is ironic because we are supposedly now trying to base everything on scientific methods.


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## OneMoar (Oct 15, 2018)

and kyle wonders why nobody wants to be on HardOCP


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## StrayKAT (Oct 15, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> You should mention the other side as well. His viewers made everything in their power such that he becomes as toxic as possible. You shouldn't use him as an example, the guy was mentally ill and surrounded by trolls and no lifers that had nothing better to do than bait him to say/do dumb shit.



I almost forgot who you were quoting about. Terry Davis, right?

Tbh, I've had my bouts with illness as well..Or at least, the doctors said so. I'm still dubious..but had to put up with hospitalization all the same. I never have seemed to have had it on those levels though. I sometimes wonder where bad character and mental illness begins/ends.


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## Vya Domus (Oct 15, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Tbh, I've had my bouts with illness as well..Or at least, the doctors said so. I'm still dubious..but had to put up with hospitalization all the same. I never have seemed to have had it on those levels though. I sometimes wonder where bad character and mental illness begins/ends.



He had serious problems, used to watch his streams, fascinating but sad at the same thing.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 15, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Well, duh.  Of course the majority is going to feel like they always have the right to kick the minorities in any given situation.  Even if they don't phrase it that way, this is nothing new.


That's not what political correctness is.  Political correctness is someone point to a white washed picket fence and someone else shouting "that's racist."  No, it's white washed picket fence.  It's not a statement on race at all. But now everyone has to paint their white picket fences some other color because it's political incorrect to paint it white.

I mostly concur with the article.  Only thing I would dispute is calling "traditional conservatives" the "far right."  They are not.  "Progressive activists" push so far left that they're forced to take a stand.


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## OneMoar (Oct 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's not what political correctness is.  Political correctness is someone point to a white washed picket fence and someone else shouting "that's racist."  No, it's white washed picket fence.  It's not a statement on race at all.


this comment is racist my fences are green! I DEMAND EQUALITY


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## StrayKAT (Oct 15, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> He had serious problems, used to watch his streams, fascinating but sad at the same thing.



Like Jim says in that Internet Insanity vid, it's a shame what Terry could have been. It's quite a feat to make your own OS.. even if it's 640x480


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 15, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> and who wouldt be? Linus may be the founding father but he is no saint. There are equally qualified core team members. The dude is straight hostile.
> 
> As for the CoC I'm not worried about it honestly. I agree with @FordGT90Concept I read the CoC and this is pretty standard. Not to mention givin the fluidity of linux if someone steps out then someone else that is willing to abide will step in to take the function on.
> 
> ...



Hostility comes from Arrogance, there were 2 others that way...

Bill and Steve.


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## OneMoar (Oct 15, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Hostility comes from Arrogance, there were 2 others that way...
> 
> Bill and Steve.


except there net worths where in the billions linus's is 150m


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## StrayKAT (Oct 15, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Hostility comes from Arrogance, there were 2 others that way...
> 
> Bill and Steve.



What I really despise is how the media parades Bill around, like he's one of the saviors of humanity. There was an article just NOW that popped up on my Mozilla "trending" start page talking to Gates about the state of the world, poverty, his foundation, etc..

I actually like Microsoft, for the most part.. but I'm not forgetful or deluded about his treatment of other people, just for the sake of business advantages.

They don't even do this to Steve Jobs. He's kind of honestly written about more often, for some reason.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 15, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're not wrong..
> 
> Only the "woke" get riled up. The rest of us have a chuckle.
> 
> ...



TRUTH! High 5


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## R-T-B (Oct 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's not what political correctness is.



Political correctness is in and of itself an illdefined, vague term.

This seems a popular type of group to use when complaining about something, frankly.  It does of course, enable you to always maintain it's "someone else" as needed, so, I get it.



Vya Domus said:


> But they are typically too taboo to mention in this day and age,



Part of what I was taught is that "not seeing color or gender is prejudice.  You should cherish the different backgrounds and unique strengths"

But I'm a hippie.  Disregard me.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 16, 2018)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politically correct


> conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated


People choose to take offense.


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## StrayKAT (Oct 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Political correctness is in and of itself an illdefined, vague term.
> 
> This seems a popular type of group to use when complaining about something, frankly.  It does of course, enable you to always maintain it's "someone else" as needed, so, I get it.
> 
> ...



Not everyone is a "background". Hardly anyone is especially in America. And if you're focused on race, it's no better than national socialists, whose WHOLE argument centers on this. They argue that people are defined by genetic distinctions - screw anything about character.

You could even share many political values with these extreme right wing types, except with one distinction -- that you define yourself as a "civic nationalist".. where you believe in similar things like patriotism, law and order, and even voted for Trump, etc.. and they will STILL lambast you because you didn't call out the "Jew". Or you like hanging around black folks. Or you ARE black.. or hispanic or Asian. These people don't care about abstracts or individuals. Just race. And they especially don't want a world where there's more race mixing, and therefore, less individual thinkers. They want a world where you only see race, and everyone is segregated in their neat little categories. Like you apparently.

Hippies were not helpful imo. If they didn't implode into some Manson family like horror show, then it was just implosion on drugs. And if they made past that, then it was broken families. And after the ashes settled, I get a brain damaged David Crosby or Brian Wilson wannabe telling me how great it was to be at Woodstock. No thanks. The only worthwhile legacy of the 60s was MLK Jr. His counterpart (Malcolm X) was hung up on race.. but even he finally got wise.. until his own people killed him.


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## Solaris17 (Oct 16, 2018)

We have an editorial on the subject located here.

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...stice-warfare-a-great-purge-is-coming.247870/

Which is the only place we are tolerating political discussions at this time which are against the forum rules HERE


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