# Negative or positive pressure? Does it matter?



## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

The title says it. In case any of you are unfamiliar of the topic, here are some great videos:



















As a starter, let me present my case:

System in my profile - I have it all in a Corsair 280X chassis. My cooling setup is composed of a 240 mm AIO with the radiator at the top of the case, fans working as exhaust. I also have the 2x 120 mm fans that came with the case in the front as intake. They work at similar RPMs, so it's a fairly balanced pressure setup. I've been wondering how to improve the cooling performance, as by taking off the side panel of the chassis, I'm shaving 8 °C off of both the CPU and GPU (62 °C CPU instead of 70 and 66 °C GPU instead of 74 in Metro: Exodus). In terms of performance, it's only a couple of extra boost bins on the GPU which isn't noticeable at all, but the noise, I mean silence!  It would be nice to have it with the side of the case on too.

The 280X chassis has 14 cm fan mounts both on top and in the front, so a fan upgrade is evident. What I thought about is getting a 280 mm AIO to improve CPU temps at the same time. But then, I probably wouldn't be able to install 14 cm fans in the front for a balanced setup (not enough room), resulting in a negative pressure setup.

My other idea is not giving a hoot about CPU temps, as they are OK anyway, but to just install 14 cm intake fans in the front, resulting in a positive pressure setup.

Which path would be more beneficial in your opinion?

Also feel free to turn the thread into a general discussion with your own questions and stuff.


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## newtekie1 (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Which path would be more beneficial in your opinion?


Always go positive pressure. The actual temperature difference is minimal, but the much lower dust with a positive pressure case is so worth it.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 16, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> Always go positive pressure. The actual temperature difference is minimal, but the much lower dust with a positive pressure case is so worth it.


It is good to see the community picking up on the notice. It actually stems from less temperature gradient at fin arrays, somehow the uniform cool air lessens the heat interface temperature gradient and airborne dust doesn't drop from suspension when air isn't vented so hot.


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## pavle (Sep 16, 2021)

I have an old IBM server (dual Pentium3 450) that from factory used to have all the fans turned the way they blow air out of the case and it didn't have hardly any dust in it when I got it. And those fans are Delta 12mm and with high RPM too - all were connected to 12V, so there goes the theory of positive pressure out the window.
I of course turned them the way there's more of them to direct air in, put them all on 7V and only PSU one for out, but that's besides the point.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 16, 2021)

pavl3 said:


> all the fans turned the way they blow air out of the case and it didn't have hardly any dust in it when I got it


I think it happens when the components are hot, thus the case ambient gets hot. Maybe yours was not.


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## Shrek (Sep 16, 2021)

I would argue that the fan is where the air runs fastest, so blowing out (negative pressure) would result in the least dust intake.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 16, 2021)

Dust will make it's way into the PC anyway, no matter what you do.


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

I like positive pressure. Dust is in your environment.. sweep, vacuum, and don’t leave your pc on the floor..


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## Shrek (Sep 16, 2021)

All the more reason to worry about dust.

Early PCs had the power supply blow into the case; modern PCs have it blow out.

I was wondering about a sealed PC case with fans blowing air around internally and the case itself a giant heatsink.


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## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

OK, so the consensus is: for dust protection, positive pressure is optimal. 

What about temperatures? Obviously, my CPU would be a tiny bit cooler with a 280 AIO instead of my 240, but would the bigger fans help extract more hot air from the case?

Or is it better to have 140 mm intakes, pump in as much cold air as possible, and leave the 240 AIO as exhaust?



Andy Shiekh said:


> I would argue that the fan is where the air runs fastest, so blowing out (negative pressure) would result in the least dust intake.


I used to think the same before dust filters were a thing. Now I'm not sure.

Edit: These are the two designs I could easily build with my chassis (I currently have 12 cm fans in all of these mounts):


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 16, 2021)

Vaccum is negative.

Id say use high static pressure fans up front and bottom and high cfm fans in back and top.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> OK, so the consensus is: for dust protection, positive pressure is optimal.
> 
> What about temperatures?


No, this is inconcise. When you are  installing intake filters, running positive pressure is less dusty since air will find ways 'out' of the case, not in places where there are no dust filters.
Temperature wise negative pressure has a lead.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 16, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> Always go positive pressure. The actual temperature difference is minimal, but the much lower dust with a positive pressure case is so worth it.


Agreed I would add, it's always possible to adjust fan speeds to accommodate different fan sizes so as to make positive pressure setups, though it can cost time and money.


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

It’s tough to have negative pressure in a case full of holes


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## mtcn77 (Sep 16, 2021)

freeagent said:


> It’s tough to have negative pressure in a case full of holes


Just have all fans exhaust, that's it.


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Just have all fans exhaust, that's it.


that would mess with my ocd big time


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

Hi,
You post two tubers, praise them and ask for opinions lol

I make all radiators front/ top intake because they are both filtered by design period :doh:


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 16, 2021)

Here's mine, not sure if it's positive or negative. apart from the psu, fans are are you see.


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## MentalAcetylide (Sep 16, 2021)

I guess it becomes more of a question of how picky you want to be in regards to airflow & dust. In my opinion, I don't think it really matters unless you're using some completely foreign(like way out there on Jupiter) fan setup and like cleaning old chalkboard erasers in the same room. I would try to have airflow slightly on the positive side but closer towards having equal air coming in & going out. If dust is such an issue, I would just get an appropriate air purifier for the room and practice good computer case hygiene.


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## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> You post two tubers, praise them and ask for opinions lol
> 
> I make all radiators front/ top intake because they are both filtered by design period :doh:


I shared some videos in case someone is new to the topic and wants to know what's going on. What's so lol about that? 



MentalAcetylide said:


> I guess it becomes more of a question of how picky you want to be in regards to airflow & dust. In my opinion, I don't think it really matters unless you're using some completely foreign(like way out there on Jupiter) fan setup and like cleaning old chalkboard erasers in the same room. I would try to have airflow slightly on the positive side but closer towards having equal air coming in & going out. If dust is such an issue, I would just get an appropriate air purifier for the room and practice good computer case hygiene.


That's good advice, but again...

Everyone: Dust is not my issue! I want to make my PC as cool and quiet as possible. I want to know what setup would be best especially for GPU thermals. That's it. Please stop telling me about dust. Thank you.


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

The attitude I have towards airflow is the overclocker in me. I tend to think everyone who visits tech sites shares the same mindset as me.. but that is not always the case. I have learned my needs are not everyone else’s needs.. and sometimes that can be a bitter pill


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## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

freeagent said:


> The attitude I have towards airflow is the overclocker in me. I tend to think everyone who visits tech sites shares the same mindset as me.. but that is not always the case. I have learned my needs are not everyone else’s needs.. and sometimes that can be a bitter pill


Considering how many "I've got a fake GPU, how can I make it work?" kind of threads I've visited lately, I'm definitely sure that not every one of us is on the same wavelength.


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## claes (Sep 16, 2021)

I would try running all of your fans as intake, including the radiator, and removing any PCI brackets. Sure, you’re pushing warm air in, but you’re getting more airflow to the GPU rather than pulling the front intake up and out.

Or get a new case. That thing is anemic.


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## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

claes said:


> I would try running all of your fans as intake, including the radiator, and removing any PCI brackets. Sure, you’re pushing warm air in, but you’re getting more airflow to the GPU rather than pulling the front intake up and out.


Hmm... I've never considered something like this. It sounds silly, but interesting. I might test it when I've got some time.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Hmm... I've never considered something like this. It sounds silly, but interesting. I might test it when I've got some time.


Hi,
Watch out you might upset your tubers thinking against the grain like that lol


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 16, 2021)

@AusWolf
There's been a lot of chatter about dust collection and negative vs positive pressure. Let's address those for a brief moment.
1. The dust. You're going to get some into your case. It is unavoidable, full stop, end of story. Reside yourself to the fact that you will have to do cleaning from time to time.(I'm betting you already knew this)
2. The differences between "negative" and "positive" air pressure in a case are measured in mere fractions of a percent of PSI. It's not worth being concerned over, at all, ever.

Now that we have those two points out of the way, your biggest concern should always be airflow. You want to configure you fans in your case so that there is always a steady and consistent flow of fresh air coming into the case and a similar flow going out. Thermal dynamics would posit that you obey the simple law that hot air rises and cool air descends. So naturally, you want configure your fans to be pulling fresh air from a point lower in the case and exhausting it out through a higher point in the case. However, if the airflow is strong enough, you can have airflow doing the opposite of what I just described and you'll be fine. But as a general rule you want to let the forces of nature work for you instead of fighting against them.

Configuring your fans to attain optimal airflow might be easy-breezy or it might take some experimentation. Just depends on your case and what you put in it.



AusWolf said:


> Hmm... I've never considered something like this. It sounds silly, but interesting.


That's because it is very silly. Not worth your time..


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## Ferd (Sep 16, 2021)

As far as dust concerns go , in both scenarios you are pulling air from the room into the case , so it’s coming in regardless of the chosen path


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## Shrek (Sep 16, 2021)

That is where the speed comes in; slow air cannot carry as much dust as fast.


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## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> @AusWolf
> There's been a lot of chatter about dust collection and negative vs positive pressure. Let's address those for a brief moment.
> 1. The dust. You're going to get some into your case. It is unavoidable, full stop, end of story. Reside yourself to the fact that you will have to do cleaning from time to time.(I'm betting you already knew this)
> 2. The differences between "negative" and "positive" air pressure in a case are measured in mere fractions of a percent of PSI. It's not worth being concerned over, at all, ever.
> ...


That's where my question comes in. 
I'm wondering whether I'd be better off 1. leaving my system as it is (2x 12 cm intake, 240 mm AIO exhaust), or 2. buying 2x 14 cm (potentially also higher rpm) intake fans, or 3. buying a 280 mm AIO as exhaust.



Ferd said:


> As far as dust concerns go , in both scenarios you are pulling air from the room into the case , so it’s coming in regardless of the chosen path





Andy Shiekh said:


> That is where the speed comes in; slow air cannot carry as much dust as fast.


Guys, please, just one more time: I'm not concerned about dust! It goes wherever air moves. Period.
I'm concerned about cooling efficiency and noise (especially GPU-wise). If you're replying to my OP, can you please give a relevant answer according to your experience and/or best knowledge? Thanks.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

Hi,
Check peoples spec's before you give them to much credit 
Clearly Lex is speeking from a non overclocking perspective.


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## AusWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Check peoples spec's before you give them to much credit
> Clearly Lex is speeking from a non overclocking perspective.


That's fine, I don't overclock, either. I just want my PC to run as cool and quiet as possible.


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## Ferd (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> That's where my question comes in.
> I'm wondering whether I'd be better off 1. leaving my system as it is (2x 12 cm intake, 240 mm AIO exhaust), or 2. buying 2x 14 cm (potentially also higher rpm) intake fans, or 3. buying a 280 mm AIO as exhaust.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry about the frustration  ...

As far as cooling I agree with this , 




lexluthermiester said:


> @AusWolf
> There's been a lot of chatter about dust collection and negative vs positive pressure. Let's address those for a brief moment.
> 1. The dust. You're going to get some into your case. It is unavoidable, full stop, end of story. Reside yourself to the fact that you will have to do cleaning from time to time.(I'm betting you already knew this)
> 2. The differences between "negative" and "positive" air pressure in a case are measured in mere fractions of a percent of PSI. It's not worth being concerned over, at all, ever.
> ...


the way it works is very basic , and you always want nature to work for you


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> That's fine, I don't overclock, either. I just want my PC to run as cool and quiet as possible.


Hi,
11700k boost clock is overclocking lol


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

My solution to dust?

DataVac Electric Duster - Better Than Compressed Air | MetroVac

If you have one.. when my fans spool up it sounds like that, minus a couple db


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> 2. buying 2x 14 cm (potentially also higher rpm) intake fans


This. The simple math says you'll get better airflow as long as you go with fans that offer at least 1200rpm.



AusWolf said:


> I'm not concerned about dust! It goes wherever air moves. Period.


This. Well said.



ThrashZone said:


> Check peoples spec's before you give them to much credit


I currently have 6 different PC's, two of them OC'd. There is no room in the "specs" for all of them so I put the tablet specs in to shut people up about it and to help others make fools of themselves...


ThrashZone said:


> Clearly Lex is *speeking* from a non overclocking perspective.


Wrong. I am speaking from a science based experience perspective. Kindly keep your condescending remarks to yourself and learn how to spell..


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## MentalAcetylide (Sep 16, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I shared some videos in case someone is new to the topic and wants to know what's going on. What's so lol about that?
> 
> 
> That's good advice, but again...
> ...


My suggestion would be the same, regardless. There's really no good reason that I can think of in trying to achieve a strongly positive or negative airflow in the case if you want sufficient removal of warm air while replacing it with cooler air.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's because it is very silly. Not worth your time..


Hi,
This is not science 
More like ending with a joke lol 

God forbid making all fans intake and removing the pci-e covers is some sort of taboo thing not worth trying


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## Jetster (Sep 16, 2021)

Ferd said:


> As far as dust concerns go , in both scenarios you are pulling air from the room into the case , so it’s coming in regardless of the chosen path


nope
With negative pressure its pulling the air in threw any available hole. USB slot, holes in the metal case, DVD drive. The kinda of hole you don't want dust in.
Positive pressure does not "pull air in" it pushes it in threw filters right where you want it to enter. Big difference. No dust

I've said this before. I live in a high humidly area. There is good and bad with this. Good; no static electricity at all. Bad; dust sticks to every part and is difficult to remove. I always run positive pressure. Many fans in 1 or none venting


lexluthermiester, its not silly. I have posted pics before of the difference. But if I need to I can do it again ​​


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

Jetster said:


> nope
> With negative pressure its pulling the air in threw any available hole. USB slot, holes in the metal case, DVD drive. The kinda of hole you don't want dust in.
> Positive pressure does not "pull air in" it *pushes it in threw filters* right where you want it to enter. Big difference. No dust


Hi,
Guessing this is a typo 
Pull through filters is better.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 16, 2021)

I have always read from lots of sources that positive is better, as Jetster said, you end up sucking dust in through USB ports, possibly even the ones in the boards i/o, and every crack in your case.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 16, 2021)

Jetster said:


> With negative pressure its pulling the air in threw any available hole. USB slot, holes in the metal case, DVD drive. The kinda of hole you don't want dust in.
> Positive pressure does not "pull air in" it pushes it in threw filters right where you want it to enter. Big difference. No dust





Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I have always read from lots of sources that positive is better, as Jetster said, you end up sucking dust in through USB ports, possibly even the ones in the boards i/o, and every crack in your case.


Except that fluid physics dictate that any space a fluid can travel through, it will travel in all directions, thus dust suspended in that fluid will be carried in either direction, filtered or not. Most PC filters fail to capture smaller, more damaging particles that get into bearings and optics. The only thing PC filters do is to trap larger particles that will otherwise be unsightly. But as they do, they have the effect of restricting airflow, which is bad.

So, lose the air filters and forget about positive & negative pressure. Focus on airflow and you will swiftly discover better cooling as a result.


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## Jetster (Sep 16, 2021)

Better is not the right word. There is pro and cons with both. Positive pressure does run hotter and moved air slower



lexluthermiester said:


> Except that fluid physics dictate that any space a fluid can travel through, it will travel in all directions, thus dust suspended in that fluid will be carried in either direction, filtered or not. Most PC filters fail to capture smaller, more damaging particles that get into bearings and optics. The only thing PC filters do is to trap larger particles that will otherwise be unsightly. But as they do, they have the effect of restricting airflow, which is bad.
> 
> So, lose the air filters and forget about positive & negative pressure. Focus on airflow and you will swiftly discover better cooling as a result.


Fluid will not travel up stream. Not that I'm aware of . And I'm not concerned with 50 micron dust. Does dust get threw yes. But not as much, way less

Believe it or not that is like 2 months. Fn cat


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 16, 2021)

Have to say, jays video was much better than the tit linus's video.  I'm gonna have a juggle around of my setup tomorrow and see what it's like.


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## Shrek (Sep 16, 2021)

Jetster said:


> With negative pressure its pulling the air in threw any available hole. USB slot, holes in the metal case, DVD drive. The kinda of hole you don't want dust in.
> Positive pressure does not "pull air in" it pushes it in threw filters right where you want it to enter. Big difference. No dust



Good point, with filtering one wants to catch the air as it comes in, so then positive pressure is the way to go.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Good point, with filtering one wants to catch the air as it comes in, so then positive pressure is the way to go.


Hi,,
Yep filter are a wonderful thing
Case makers make and include them for a reason = use and keep them clean.
Get rid of cats lol


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## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

Ferd said:


> Sorry about the frustration  ...
> 
> As far as cooling I agree with this ,
> 
> ...


There's no frustration at all.  Only a failure to comprehend why some people still keep thinking that I'm bothered by dust even though I've said multiple times that I'm not.

*People! I have dust filters. I also acknowledge the fact that dust finds its way into your case regardless of your cooling setup. I don't give a rat's arse about this side of the topic. What I want is cooling and silence. *Can you please, please keep this in mind before commenting, or at least not direct your comment towards trying to help me? (as giving advice about dust is clearly not helping me - it might help others, though) It would be very much appreciated.



lexluthermiester said:


> This. The simple math says you'll get better airflow as long as you go with fans that offer at least 1200rpm.


Now that's an interesting point. My current intake fans max out at about 1200 rpm. Maybe I should look for faster ones?



MentalAcetylide said:


> My suggestion would be the same, regardless. There's really no good reason that I can think of in trying to achieve a strongly positive or negative airflow in the case if you want sufficient removal of warm air while replacing it with cooler air.


Thanks for the tip.  I'm trying exactly that. My current setup is fairly balanced, but clearly not powerful enough, demonstrated by the fact that I can drop a good 6-8 °C off of both the CPU and GPU by just removing the side of the case. The ideal situation would be replacing my 240 mm AIO with a 280 mm unit, and my 12 cm intake fans with 14 cm ones, but I'm afraid all these won't fit at the same time due to how close the front panel is to the rest of the case. So it's either bigger AIO with bigger fans, or just bigger intake fans at the front, but not both.


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## Shrek (Sep 17, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Except that fluid physics dictate that any space a fluid can travel through, it will travel in all directions, thus dust suspended in that fluid will be carried in either direction.



Unless it is dropped first.

There was an experiment by Pasteur to show bacteria exist. He heated soup but left it connected to the air by a curved tube; the bacteria collected at the bottom of the curve and the soup did not go bad.

OK, this is getting a bit crazy; the only point I am making is that the slower the flow the less dust is suspended.

I wonder if one could make a cyclone dust trap based on this principle (a bit like a Dyson vacuum cleaner).
Amazon.com: Cyclone Dust Collector Dust Collection Dust Separator Shop Vac Accessories (Green) : Tools & Home Improvement

Ah, the OP is not interested in dust entrapment; I stop.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2021)

Jetster said:


> Fluid will not travel up stream. Not that I'm aware of .


Air is a fluid and yes it does given the right force.



AusWolf said:


> Now that's an interesting point. My current intake fans max out at about 1200 rpm. Maybe I should look for faster ones?


Yes. If you want better air flow and you're willing to live with a bit of extra noise(not a lot), then faster fans would be a good investment.


AusWolf said:


> People! I have dust filters.


Seriously, lose the filters. Your airflow, and thus cooling, will dramatically improve as a result. If you're worried about dust, get one of these and use it to blow out your system once a month(or whenever needed depending on your environment);


			https://www.amazon.com/Compressed-MECO-High-Pressure-Computer-Keyboard/dp/B082XR3987
		

Make sure you vacuum your house every two weeks at least and you'll have minimal dust collect in your PC. Again, speaking from experience.


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## Shrek (Sep 17, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Seriously, lose the filters. Your airflow, and thus cooling, will dramatically improve as a result.



I agree, which leads to the thought of an electrostatic filter (the sort used on power station stacks) which should have very little restriction;
or the cyclone collector.

But if we are off topic, I'm happy to stop.

I find all this very interesting, but feel that may not be the case for everyone.


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## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I agree, which leads to the thought of an electrostatic filter which should have very little restriction.
> 
> But if we are off topic, I'm happy to stop.
> 
> I find all this very interesting, but feel that may not be the case for everyone.


It's not off topic as long as you don't mean it as an answer to my question. 

An electrostatic filter would be interesting. Does it exist? (sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable about filters)



lexluthermiester said:


> Air is a fluid and yes it does given the right force.
> 
> 
> Yes. If you want better air flow and you're willing to live with a bit of extra noise(not a lot), then faster fans would be a good investment.
> ...


I have one of these.  I'll check out some new fans, thanks.


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## Shrek (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> An electrostatic filter would be interesting. Does it exist? (sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable about filters)



Electrostatic filters exist, but I don't know of any for computers; they will still need periodic cleaning but I believe would not be very restrictive; the cyclone idea might be a lot simpler, but again I have not seen it used on computers.

Like many people I just blast things out now and again, but 'compressed air' is way too expensive and a blower is a better idea, but this can lead to a discussion of electrostatic dangers. I recall a story of a submarine probe that was ballasted with CO2 so it would float to the surface; the electronics were failing because the dry gas was developing electrostatic discharge as it brushed passed surfaces. That said, I have never had any problems, but have the ESD version of the Datavac which attends to these issues.

This problem of frictionally induced discharge can seem for volcanos.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2021)

There's this thing called a Datavac, get one for the dusties.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> There's no frustration at all.  Only a failure to comprehend why some people still keep thinking that I'm bothered by dust even though I've said multiple times that I'm not.
> 
> *People! I have dust filters. I also acknowledge the fact that dust finds its way into your case regardless of your cooling setup. I don't give a rat's arse about this side of the topic. What I want is cooling and silence. *Can you please, please keep this in mind before commenting, or at least not direct your comment towards trying to help me? (as giving advice about dust is clearly not helping me - it might help others, though) It would be very much appreciated.
> 
> ...



iirc a 280mm radiator has more surface area than a 360 rad, i would go for a bigger rad


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## Shrek (Sep 17, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> There's this thing called a Datavac, get one for the dusties.



Get the ESD version if you can afford it.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> iirc a 280mm radiator has more surface area than a 360 rad, i would go for a bigger rad


However the fan motors are not stronger. Unless they've actually started to size motors to the wider blade area this constant should still be true.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 17, 2021)

Don't forget bigger 140mm fans can in theory move more air at a slower rpm, so quieter.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Don't forget bigger 140mm fans can in theory move more air at a slower rpm, so quieter.


Nope, that actually makes them weaker. You want static pressure, ie more power. Years ago this was proven by Martins testing who took a AP15 on a 140mm shroud vs the a range of 140s up to deltas iirc. The AP15 killed them until the 38s.


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## freeagent (Sep 17, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Get the ESD version if you can afford it.


I got the white one last Christmas  

That’s why I used to push 120x38s so hard.. they are tough to beat

I failed at quoting sorry


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## Shrek (Sep 17, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I got the white one last Christmas



The white one is fine (I have that one also) and I doubt will cause any issues, despite the CO2 horror story. The black one includes a ground wire and I believe the plastic parts are conductive (unlike for the white version). My only gripe is that the bearings started to chatter and it is hell to get to the lower one for oiling (I believe the same motor is used for both versions).

Seems there is also a 220V version, and I see they now have a variable speed variant.
Consumer Electronics/IT Cleaning Tools | MetroVac


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## maxfly (Sep 17, 2021)

It sounds like your front fans arent pushing enough cool air into your case fast/hard enough to allow your gpu to use it before your top fans exhaust it. Try running your front fans faster and exhaust fans slower. 
Or, if your feeling really really constructive, build a temporary duct out of cardboard from one front fan to your gpu. 
Or get higher static pressure fans to overcome the impedance of your grills and filter in front.


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## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

@AusWolf   Go for positive pressure. Doyll once explained that if possible, positive pressure is always better as it blows cold air onto components. Exhaust fans suck in air much weaker, than it exhausts. Since computers aren't sealed boxes, exhaust fans can't do much. They are only useful for creating flow from front bottom to top rear.

Here's the original article:





						* Basic Guide to Improving Case Airflow*
					

How airflow works Airflow is simply displacement; for air to come into case, air must be leaving case .. or .. for air to leave the case, air must be coming into case. Think of the air around us as water and we are divers in it and a sunken van is a computer case.  We can't move more water into...




					hardforum.com
				




"But with good case intake fans we don't need exhaust fans, same as good cooler / radiator fans don't need pull fans."

But then you have sort of cubish case. I would remove front metal grille and use both stock intakes and maybe add a fan to front bottom as intake. It might not need any exhaust fans then. AIO would go to front intake and you can reuse stock fan and put it as bottom front intake. Taking side panel off more or less means that you have intake bottleneck.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> iirc a 280mm radiator has more surface area than a 360 rad, i would go for a bigger rad





Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Don't forget bigger 140mm fans can in theory move more air at a slower rpm, so quieter.





The red spirit said:


> @AusWolf   Go for positive pressure. Doyll once explained that if possible, positive pressure is always better as it blows cold air onto components. Exhaust fans suck in air much weaker, than it exhausts. Since computers aren't sealed boxes, exhaust fans can't do much. They are only useful for creating flow from front bottom to top rear.
> 
> Here's the original article:
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insight, guys! I really appreciate it. 

What you're saying basically, are two opposite things, which also makes it interesting. I wish I could have a 280 mm AIO at the top with 2x 14 cm fans as intake. It may be doable, but the space in the top front corner seems a bit tight. What I can see myself doing in the future, is getting the bigger AIO and the 14 cm fans, and experimenting with them, trying to see which config works best in real life.

Another option might be using the AIO as intake, but that wouldn't help much with GPU thermals/noise, I suppose.


----------



## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Sep 17, 2021)

put it simply, positive pursue means better temperatures and lower dust build up.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> *People! I have dust filters. I also acknowledge the fact that dust finds its way into your case regardless of your cooling setup. I don't give a rat's arse about this side of the topic. What I want is cooling and silence. *Can you please, please keep this in mind before commenting, or at least not direct your comment towards trying to help me? (as giving advice about dust is clearly not helping me - it might help others, though) It would be very much appreciated.


Hi,
Maybe think outside the box a little more 
If current filters are not catching micro fine dust, well they are screens like most home windows use not real filters like home a/c systems use so it might be worth bettering the filters

I've used home a/c filter material little restrictive but worked very well at catrching all the micro fine dust

Currently I'm using some dark speaker cloth because it's much easier to tell when it's time to vac or blow it out and it's less restrictive


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Maybe think outside the box a little more
> If current filters are not catching micro fine dust, well they are screens like most home windows use not real filters like home a/c systems use so it might be worth bettering the filters
> 
> ...


That's cool, but like I said, dust is not my concern. I'm interested in keeping my system as cool and quiet as possible while also keeping my dust filters on if possible. My question is related to airflow, not dust.

Edit: Everybody: Can you please read the comment you're replying to before typing anything? If someone is asking what settings they should use on their 10900K, _"the 5900X is a much better CPU"_ is not the answer.
(crude example, but that's kind of what's happening here)


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> Dust will make it's way into the PC anyway, no matter what you do.



Sure... but I just cleaned my PC two days ago and it had a very thin, fine layer on everything and just a few small (fingertip) bundles between the heatsinks. The thing has been standing here since january 2019.

When I didn't have a filtered case I used to clean it bi monthly and found more. When I had less pronounced positive pressure but filtered case, than I do on this rig, I also had more dust in less time.



thesmokingman said:


> Nope, that actually makes them weaker. You want static pressure, ie more power. Years ago this was proven by Martins testing who took a AP15 on a 140mm shroud vs the a range of 140s up to deltas iirc. The AP15 killed them until the 38s.



Static pressure doesn't move air better which is what case fans are for. I've had pressure fans in the front and they had to run much faster and louder than non pressure optimized fans.

Pressure is for rads, isn't it?


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Thanks for your insight, guys! I really appreciate it.
> 
> What you're saying basically, are two opposite things, which also makes it interesting. I wish I could have a 280 mm AIO at the top with 2x 14 cm fans as intake. It may be doable, but the space in the top front corner seems a bit tight. What I can see myself doing in the future, is getting the bigger AIO and the 14 cm fans, and experimenting with them, trying to see which config works best in real life.
> 
> Another option might be using the AIO as intake, but that wouldn't help much with GPU thermals/noise, I suppose.


I just tested theory of no exhaust fans in my case (Silencio S400) and conclusion is that exhaust fans are good. Here are temps with exhaust fans stopped and with exhaust fans working (I ran prime95 small FFTs and Unigine Tropics for 20 minutes and only care about maximum temperatures):
CPU Package 78C - 73C
CPU Core 78C - 73C
PCH 48C - 46C
VRM MOS 76C -73C
PCIe x16 48C - 46C
SSD (OS SSD) 38C - 37C
GPU Diode 67C - 65C
GPU VRM 1 64C - 62C

Exhaust fans helped to me, I guess its a good idea to use them. What we can take away from doyll's assertion is that intake fans are more valuable than exhaust fans, but you need to create some flow in case to make it cool well. Intake fans are more valuable likely because they push cold air into case and cold air is more dense and less viscous. Fans are also able to create far more pressure when they exhaust air, rather than suck it it. You have active pressure and static pressure then. In intake active pressure is lower and you rely on static pressure more. Computer fans are made to create airflow and they are either way weak at creating pressures. They are not compressors, they are not sealed and and unsurprisingly they don't produce much pressure. If I understand correctly, computer fans are able to take in air and then exhaust it at fast rate. They have just enough pressure to deal with some obstructions, static pressure fans have better ability to to deal with them, meanwhile airflow fans suffer greatly with any obstruction at all. The main point in fans is to have good air exhaust velocity and just enough static pressure to deal with obstructions, else you need more rpms and lose some velocity.

I think that my first advice was a little bit shit. But when I thought more, you need to put 2 static pressure fans on radiators. You are either way advised to use static pressure fans as intakes to beat resistance of grilles and other obstructions and you should use static pressure fans on radiator anyway, so it saves fans. You can install AIO as bottom intake (but consider that it's AIO and I have no idea if it affects longevity of it) and then use stock case fans as two top exhausts. That should create a nice air chimney effect. It should work rather well, despite GPU mounted horizontally. Here's an example of chimney airflow:









That's probably the best bet with least amount of fans used. Your main problem is that 280X doesn't have any proper rear exhaust and you only have top exhaust. So in typical built, people would use front intake and top exhaust, but air doesn't like bending 90 degrees. As for grilles, you can likely remove top grille without dust consequences as you still have glass cover for dust to land on it. Bottom intake doesn't have tall feet, so maybe filter is a good idea. If feet were tall, you could use it without filter as fans only have so much force to suck dust from floor. ANd if you have static pressure fans, they will have to spin faster to create same airflow as generic fan, so be warned. Anyway, just test out various things and see what happens, theorizing so much isn't good without putting ideas to practice


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 17, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I just tested theory of no exhaust fans in my case (Silencio S400) and conclusion is that exhaust fans are good. Here are temps with exhaust fans stopped and with exhaust fans working (I ran prime95 small FFTs and Unigine Tropics for 20 minutes and only care about maximum temperatures):
> CPU Package 78C - 73C
> CPU Core 78C - 73C
> PCH 48C - 46C
> ...


Err Long post , ended well, theorising isn't going to get you there.
One thing though air very much likes 90° bends.
Laminar flow is usually temporarily, requires very high for a pc flow rates and also requires server level fans to have any hope of occuring.
Turbulent flow is Typical.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I just tested theory of no exhaust fans in my case (Silencio S400) and conclusion is that exhaust fans are good. Here are temps with exhaust fans stopped and with exhaust fans working (I ran prime95 small FFTs and Unigine Tropics for 20 minutes and only care about maximum temperatures):
> CPU Package 78C - 73C
> CPU Core 78C - 73C
> PCH 48C - 46C
> ...


That's an interesting test, thanks for that.  I'm definitely not gonna neglect using exhaust fans, especially since my AIO is mounted as top exhaust. Which made me think... You're right that with the glass top on my case, I would probably be alright without a dust filter under it. And... if I used my AIO as front intake, I probably wouldn't need a filter there, either, as the radiator naturally filters larger dust particles (smaller ones get into your case anyway). I'm just not sure how that would affect GPU thermals. I guess this is something worth testing. The only thing I can't do is have bottom fans, as they would interfere with my motherboard's connectors (front panel, audio, SATA, etc.).


----------



## freeagent (Sep 17, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Pressure is for rads, isn't it?


120x38s were used for cabinet cooling long before rads were a thing on the desktop.. The mills and lathes at work all use 120x38s and 140x38s for cabinet cooling as well.


----------



## Deleted member 212040 (Sep 17, 2021)

Stop caring about negative or positive pressures. Dust is an unwinnable battle. Get yourself an anti-static electric blower and dust out your PC once in a while.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> That's an interesting test, thanks for that.  I'm definitely not gonna neglect using exhaust fans, especially since my AIO is mounted as top exhaust. Which made me think... You're right that with the glass top on my case, I would probably be alright without a dust filter under it. And... if I used my AIO as front intake, I probably wouldn't need a filter there, either, as the radiator naturally filters larger dust particles (smaller ones get into your case anyway). I'm just not sure how that would affect GPU thermals. I guess this is something worth testing. The only thing I can't do is have bottom fans, as they would interfere with my motherboard's connectors (front panel, audio, SATA, etc.).


Well, the most brutish attempts to cool your PC is to use AIO as front intake, add two bottom intakes and use two top exhaust fans. I was just saying that with chimney airflow you can likely get rid of two fans without negative consequences as they will create more air blow than airflow. If you had vertical card bracket, I'm sure that chimney would work totally fine, with horizontal GPU I'm not sure if it will work well. The problem with it is that it blocks airflow and thus starves upper case of fresh air intake. front intake may be useless then as on bottom it would just blow air in and air will be blocked by GPU, on top front intake would blow air in, but it wouldn't be able to go far in case as it would get sucked in by exhaust AIO. Perhaps that's still better to ram some cold air, but it's feels so unnecessary, when vertical card bracket could solve that problem in much more effective way. That sounds nice and all, but in reality bracket on Amazon is expensive, 50 burger dollars. I really want to slap someone at Corsair for not making rear exhaust fan mount or for not including vertical GPU bracket for already overpriced case. They could have just marketed vertical mount for those RGB wankers and they would suck it up. That would have good for airflow and for bling, but as is, it's neither.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Well, the most brutish attempts to cool your PC is to use AIO as front intake, add two bottom intakes and use two top exhaust fans. I was just saying that with chimney airflow you can likely get rid of two fans without negative consequences as they will create more air blow than airflow. If you had vertical card bracket, I'm sure that chimney would work totally fine, with horizontal GPU I'm not sure if it will work well. The problem with it is that it blocks airflow and thus starves upper case of fresh air intake. front intake may be useless then as on bottom it would just blow air in and air will be blocked by GPU, on top front intake would blow air in, but it wouldn't be able to go far in case as it would get sucked in by exhaust AIO. Perhaps that's still better to ram some cold air, but it's feels so unnecessary, when vertical card bracket could solve that problem in much more effective way. That sounds nice and all, but in reality bracket on Amazon is expensive, 50 burger dollars. I really want to slap someone at Corsair for not making rear exhaust fan mount or for not including vertical GPU bracket for already overpriced case. They could have just marketed vertical mount for those RGB wankers and they would suck it up. That would have good for airflow and for bling, but as is, it's neither.


I think Corsair only thought about people with water-cooling with this case, as it doesn't rely so much on back exhaust as tower style air coolers do.

If I could mount fans on the bottom for a chimney style airflow, I'd definitely do that! But unfortunately, even 12 cm fans there would leave me no room to connect the front panel headers, so it's a no-go. Even the Corsair website states that the bottom fan mounts can only be used with a mini-ITX motherboard, which as I've seen, is definitely true. I'll be away from home next week, but later I'll try to test what a front mounted (intake) AIO with no dust filters do to GPU temps. If it's a feasible option, I'll consider upgrading to a 280 mm AIO and/or 14 cm case fans, and see how (if) they fit.



Emily said:


> Stop caring about negative or positive pressures. Dust is an unwinnable battle. Get yourself an anti-static electric blower and dust out your PC once in a while.


Please read back a couple of posts.

*I don't care about dust! My question is about airflow and internal case (and GPU) temperatures!* Thank you.


----------



## Deleted member 212040 (Sep 17, 2021)

Then that's case dependent. Some cases are built for positive pressure, some for negative and some for balanced. On my 500DX I have four 140mm fans, two intakes & two exhausts. As it's the proper airflow configuration for this case.


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## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I think Corsair only thought about people with water-cooling with this case, as it doesn't rely so much on back exhaust as tower style air coolers do.
> 
> If I could mount fans on the bottom for a chimney style airflow, I'd definitely do that! But unfortunately, even 12 cm fans there would leave me no room to connect the front panel headers, so it's a no-go. Even the Corsair website states that the bottom fan mounts can only be used with a mini-ITX motherboard, which as I've seen, is definitely true. I'll be away from home next week, but I'll try to test what a front mounted (intake) AIO with no dust filters do to GPU temps. If it's a feasible option, I'll consider upgrading to a 280 mm AIO and/or 14 cm case fans, and see how (if) they fit.


Well, that's even more fucked up then. Your only option is to have front intake and top exhaust. Two fans on each. Still, I think it's better to put AIO on front, but this needs testing. I really don't want it on top, because you are supposed to use pressure fans on intake and put obstructions on intake. Hot air is less dense, more viscous and is much harder to pressurize it, therefore using static pressure fans on hot air exhaust just looks like a bad idea and GPU almost always expels more heat than CPU, so you take it quite hot air and make it even hotter, that's probably bad for CPU temps.


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## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

Emily said:


> Then that's case dependent. Some cases are built for positive pressure, some for negative and some for balanced. On my 500DX I have four 140mm fans, two intakes & two exhausts. As it's the proper airflow configuration for this case.


I'd love to have 4x 140 mm fans as well, I'm just afraid that they won't fit. A new AIO is a bit expensive just for an experiment, but I guess I don't have much choice (but to experiment). 



The red spirit said:


> Well, that's even more fucked up then. Your only option is to have front intake and top exhaust. Two fans on each. Still, I think it's better to put AIO on front, but this needs testing. I really don't want it on top, because you are supposed to use pressure fans on intake and put obstructions on intake. Hot air is less dense, more viscous and is much harder to pressurize it, therefore using static pressure fans on hot air exhaust just looks like a bad idea and *GPU almost always expels more heat than CPU*, so you take it quite hot air and make it even hotter, that's probably bad for CPU temps.


To be honest, that's why I have my AIO as exhaust, as the GPU is more reliant on cool, fresh air to maintain proper temperatures. It peaks at 73-74 °C with the 2x 120 mm intakes. I'm wondering what the AIO pushing hot air onto it would do. Maybe something drastic. Maybe nothing. I'll have to test this.


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## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> To be honest, that's why I have my AIO as exhaust, as the GPU is more reliant on cool, fresh air to maintain proper temperatures. It peaks at 73-74 °C with the 2x 120 mm intakes. I'm wondering what the AIO pushing hot air onto it would do. Maybe something drastic. Maybe nothing. I'll have to test this.


Well, you only have two choices and only about where to mount AIO on top or as front intake. You can only put fans on front intake and top exhaust. Basically, you should just test that out in quick and dirty way like I did. I think that running prime95 small FFTs with Unigine Valley or Heaven on high preset (don't care about fps, it's only GPU creating heat) for one hour (should be enough for AIO temps to stabilize). Use HWiNFO64 to log data. Test one setup write down temp sensor results and test another. If you post your findings here, it would be nice. For AIO mount fans for push or push pull, pull alone is weak sauce. You should monitor at least CPU, CPU VRM, GPU temps, but the more data points the better. It's easier to visualize what's going on in PC with more data points. All in all, it would take you 3 hours to know things for sure. Those are likely the best cooling setups. If you want, you can also test with same layout, but all fans as exhaust or intakes, but those are silly setups and unlikely to yield good results and there fore are likely waste of time.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2021)

freeagent said:


> 120x38s were used for cabinet cooling long before rads were a thing on the desktop.. The mills and lathes at work all use 120x38s and 140x38s for cabinet cooling as well.



A cabinet isnt a desktop.

For similar reasons we dont place 8000 RPM Deltas in our case... other metrics are of importance, like noise and its frequency/pitch.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 17, 2021)

Hi,
Stereo volume control you'd never notice that b-52 on the runway


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## freeagent (Sep 17, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> A cabinet isnt a desktop.
> 
> For similar reasons we dont place 8000 RPM Deltas in our case... other metrics are of importance, like noise and its frequency/pitch.


A cabinet is a desktop, it’s another way of saying chassis. Because back in the day you usually had a thick exhaust and no intake fan. Or fancy setups had a thick intake and exhaust. Long before what we have today.


ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Stereo volume control you'd never notice that b-52 on the runway


That’s why I gave up on desktop speakers in the early 2000s.. My trusty champagne face h/k was what drove my pc sound for years


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## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2021)

freeagent said:


> A cabinet is a desktop, it’s another way of saying chassis. Because back in the day you usually had a thick exhaust and no intake fan. Or fancy setups had a thick intake and exhaust. Long before what we have today.
> 
> That’s why I gave up on desktop speakers in the early 2000s.. My trusty champagne face h/k was what drove my pc sound for years



Right. Lets not go over semantics and lets stop evading the point: noise is a metric too. And pressure fans will need higher RPM to move similar volume, because they are optimized for pressure and not flow.

Its the whole point of optimization; varying user cases (dat pun!)


----------



## freeagent (Sep 17, 2021)

Thick fans don’t need high revs to push a lot of air, and thick fans don’t have to be loud either, that is an extremely common misperception.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 17, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Thick fans don’t need high revs to push a lot of air, and thick fans don’t have to be loud either, that is an extremely common misperception.


Thick fans have less flow separation.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 17, 2021)

Uhoh.. I’m not familiar with that term


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## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Thick fans don’t need high revs to push a lot of air, and thick fans don’t have to be loud either, that is an extremely common misperception.



But, they are thick, and still more noisy while doing so. If they were indeed better  on all metrics we would not have left them behind... we also havent got wind tunnel desktops.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 17, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> But, they are thick, and still more noisy while doing so. If they were indeed better  on all metrics we would not have left them behind... we also havent got wind tunnel desktops.


I'm not sure what to say.. I have had old computers with thick fans that were whisper quiet, they weren't 2500RPM shredders though. I have a 24v 120x38 as a rear exhaust in my case right now, and at a constant 12v it is literally whisper quiet. My other system fans are way louder when they spool up, and they are 25mm.. There is a lot of air moving in that scenario and you can hear it, but you mostly hear motor noise because 2500-3000 RPM is loud on 25mm and 38mm fans.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> *I don't care about dust! My question is about airflow and internal case (and GPU) temperatures!* Thank you.


Then just keep the ratio balanced or as close to it as you can. In my case I have 6 intake fans and 8 exhaust (rads).



The red spirit said:


> @AusWolf   Go for positive pressure. Doyll once explained that if possible, positive pressure is always better as it blows cold air onto components. Exhaust fans suck in air much weaker, than it exhausts. Since computers aren't sealed boxes, exhaust fans can't do much. They are only useful for creating flow from front bottom to top rear.
> 
> Here's the original article:
> 
> ...


Dislike threads like that. Part in bold I would avoid in a watercooling setup as you are pushing in warm to hot air that is already used up. And with no exhaust fans you will end up cooking every other component in the rig, not smart.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> Then just keep the ratio balanced or as close to it as you can. In my case I have 6 intake fans and 8 exhaust (rads).
> 
> 
> Dislike threads like that. Part in bold I would avoid in a watercooling setup as you are pushing in warm to hot air that is already used up. And with no exhaust fans you will end up cooking every other component in the rig, not smart.


What? Granted that case is decently open, if you mount AIO as intake, warmer air will be blown on board and card. Graphics card should heat it up more and then everything will be pushed out same intakes eventually through case holes. I tested that in this thread and well it works, but having exhausts helps, so what was said, is that intakes are more valuable than exhausts, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have exhausts. It's all about making air flow in case.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> What? Granted that case is decently open, if you mount AIO as intake, warmer air will be blown on board and card. Graphics card should heat it up more and then everything will be pushed out same intakes eventually through case holes. I tested that in this thread and well it works, but having exhausts helps, so what was said, is that intakes are more valuable than exhausts, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have exhausts. It's all about making air flow in case.


That's why writing strong points is stupid because no choice has a clear advantage.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I'm not sure what to say.. I have had old computers with thick fans that were whisper quiet, they weren't 2500RPM shredders though. I have a 24v 120x38 as a rear exhaust in my case right now, and at a constant 12v it is literally whisper quiet. My other system fans are way louder when they spool up, and they are 25mm.. There is a lot of air moving in that scenario and you can hear it, but you mostly hear motor noise because 2500-3000 RPM is loud on 25mm and 38mm fans.



Motor noise and 2500 RPM is certainly not going to fit your average (performance) desktop use case, so there it is then. 

Noise is a thing of perception. Im used to zero motor or pump noise, all I hear is the actual air being moved, really. Whole rig is low RPM and even the GPU is using a slightly larger diameter fan than most. Motor spool up? What is that 

Everything spins at 1000-1200 here and case fans arent even PWM anymore: its actually better to have a constant there, again for a good noise/perf middle ground.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 17, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> That's why writing strong points is stupid because no choice has a clear advantage.


True and false. Intake radiator is still not as good as no internal exhaust setup which can be done with unobstructed intake side.


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## claes (Sep 17, 2021)

If you’re seriously considering buying a new AIO then I would consider buying a new case. That seems like a better investment since your problem has nothing to do with CPU temperatures but with GPU temperatures and noise (something most of this this thread is neglecting).

There are some good and bad ideas about airflow here but I do not have the time, maybe @doyll has the energy :wave:


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## maxfly (Sep 17, 2021)

I would suggest starting with a couple of these,





						Phanteks Innovative Computer Hardware Design
					






					www.phanteks.com
				



You cant get anything better for intake fans that need to overcome filter/grill restrictions while maintaining exceptional flow and still being quiet. If you find that they arent the answer to your high gpu temps they will certainly outperform your rad fans(if they will fit).


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## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Well, you only have two choices and only about where to mount AIO on top or as front intake. You can only put fans on front intake and top exhaust. Basically, you should just test that out in quick and dirty way like I did. I think that running prime95 small FFTs with Unigine Valley or Heaven on high preset (don't care about fps, it's only GPU creating heat) for one hour (should be enough for AIO temps to stabilize). Use HWiNFO64 to log data. Test one setup write down temp sensor results and test another. If you post your findings here, it would be nice. For AIO mount fans for push or push pull, pull alone is weak sauce. You should monitor at least CPU, CPU VRM, GPU temps, but the more data points the better. It's easier to visualize what's going on in PC with more data points. All in all, it would take you 3 hours to know things for sure. Those are likely the best cooling setups. If you want, you can also test with same layout, but all fans as exhaust or intakes, but those are silly setups and unlikely to yield good results and there fore are likely waste of time.


Oh no... with a power limit unlocked 10 or 11th gen Intel CPU, you must avoid Prime95 like the plague! It pumps as much power into the poor thing as it can before it hits 100 °C and throttles. Not good. I know you didn't mention it, but I also advise people against Furmark for similar reasons. My test method is an unlimited run of Superposition 1080p Ultra, or a 3DMark Time Spy stress test for GPU, and a 10 or 30 minute Cinebench R23 loop for CPU. 

I'll test some things nonetheless. My next plan is to put the AIO as intake, so that I can remove the front dust filter, and use the radiator to filter the incoming air. I also plan to remove the top filter, as I probably have no use for it anyway, thanks to the top glass, like you said it yourself. I'll report my findings as soon as I have anything. It won't be soon, though, as I'm going on a holiday.



claes said:


> If you’re seriously considering buying a new AIO then I would consider buying a new case. That seems like a better investment since your problem has nothing to do with CPU temperatures but with GPU temperatures and noise (something most of this this thread is neglecting).


It feels so refreshing when someone understands what my question is actually about! Thank you! 

What I'm planning for now, is test different cooling setups in the same case. I bought it not so long ago, and I quite like it to be honest. Micro-ATX cases with similar functionality in such a compact size are rare. Some reviews said that this one works a lot better with the dust filters removed, so I have high hopes.


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## The red spirit (Sep 17, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Oh no... with a power limit unlocked 10 or 11th gen Intel CPU, you must avoid Prime95 like the plague! It pumps as much power into the poor thing as it can before it hits 100 °C and throttles. Not good.


That just means that your power limit is set too high. Something like that shouldn't happen in prime95, as it is close to many BOINC workloads or encoding stuff. It's not unrealistic load and your hardware has to handle that for long periods of time. For thermal testing, you could just disable turbo at all and test at base speed and fixed fan rpms.




AusWolf said:


> I know you didn't mention it, but I also advise people against Furmark for similar reasons. My test method is an unlimited run of Superposition 1080p Ultra, or a 3DMark Time Spy stress test for GPU, and a 10 or 30 minute Cinebench R23 loop for CPU.


I don't find Furmark malicious. I used all my cards with Furmark at some point and nothing spectacular happened. Neither in thermals or power usage Furmark wasn't much different from Unigine benchmarks or games or BOINC workloads. 

As for Cinebench, my watt meter and CPU temperature sensor says that it's just as bad as prime95, maybe a little bit worse. A light CPU stress test is CPU-Z test, but only stable version, which doesn't utilize AVX. But it's a poor test for thermals and it doesn't check stability well, so I would avoid it.


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## AusWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> That just means that your power limit is set too high. Something like that shouldn't happen in prime95, as it is close to many BOINC workloads or encoding stuff. It's not unrealistic load and your hardware has to handle that for long periods of time. For thermal testing, you could just disable turbo at all and test at base speed and fixed fan rpms.


My power limit is fine for everything except for Prime95.



The red spirit said:


> I don't find Furmark malicious. I used all my cards with Furmark at some point and nothing spectacular happened. Neither in thermals or power usage Furmark wasn't much different from Unigine benchmarks or games or BOINC workloads.


The last time I tried Furmark was when I still had my 5700 XT, and it was hell. Prime95 GPU edition. Never again.



The red spirit said:


> As for Cinebench, my watt meter and CPU temperature sensor says that it's just as bad as prime95, maybe a little bit worse. A light CPU stress test is CPU-Z test, but only stable version, which doesn't utilize AVX. But it's a poor test for thermals and it doesn't check stability well, so I would avoid it.


That's weird. What's the power limit on your CPU? Maybe it maxes out during Cinebench as well. As for CPU-Z, I agree. It has a nice little benchmark tool, but not good for stability/thermal testing.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> It peaks at 73-74 °C with the 2x 120 mm intakes.


Those are not bad temps. Are you worried you're going to burn it out?



AusWolf said:


> Oh no... with a power limit unlocked 10 or 11th gen Intel CPU, you must avoid Prime95 like the plague! It pumps as much power into the poor thing as it can before it hits 100 °C and throttles. Not good.


Prime95 is not the problem. It is designed deliberately to push a CPU as hard as it can so you can gauge compute performance and cooling performance. If it's spiking to 100C and throttling, you need better cooling, not to avoid Prime95.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> My power limit is fine for everything except for Prime95.


Then it's not fine. It's set too high, lower it and it will be fine in prime and you shouldn't see any performance effect everywhere else.




AusWolf said:


> The last time I tried Furmark was when I still had my 5700 XT, and it was hell. Prime95 GPU edition. Never again.


Not sure what hell is, but it's not much different from using your GPU for Collatz@Home or MilkyWay@Home or playing a video game that utilizes it to 100%. 




AusWolf said:


> That's weird. What's the power limit on your CPU? Maybe it maxes out during Cinebench as well. As for CPU-Z, I agree. It has a nice little benchmark tool, but not good for stability/thermal testing.


Well, I currently have set PL1 to 75 watts and PL2 to 80 watts, Tau is Intel spec so probably 28 seconds. Anyway, my cooling handles this chip with power limits lifted it's just that it tops out at high 70s, maybe low 80s. I prefer not to exceed 70C as is is recommended temperature limit for maximum turbo boost, else cooler with stock fan curve will be at 100% speed. And it's nice for VRMs too as I likely have one of those boards, that can't handle i9k.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 18, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Thick fans don’t need high revs to push a lot of air, and thick fans don’t have to be loud either, that is an extremely common misperception.



That is true, fans with a larger cross section do not, also there is blade pitch/Angle of attack that play in moving air/noise.

I had a 60 mm delta that was thick,  was a server fan and noisy!!!

Very high revs.

Ive seen other thicker larger fans move the same volume of air at lesser rpm.


----------



## natr0n (Sep 18, 2021)

I dont even use doors/panels on my cases.

I feel like this is more of a peer pressure scenario.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 18, 2021)

natr0n said:


> I dont even use doors/panels on my cases.
> 
> I feel like this is more of a peer pressure scenario.



Not if you have tiny fingers or furry ones beboppin around. Its absolutely a safety hazard in my house. All i need is one of our cats to get onto one of my rigs. My wife would hurt me in ways id rather not think about!


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 18, 2021)

This video with smoke is comprehensive.

Neutral or positive air flow please.









If you had micron filters you would need stronger fans which can get noisy.

Just keep you case clean a month or 2, keep it off floor/carpet.


----------



## Mussels (Sep 18, 2021)

Slightly positive always works. as air creeps out every gap
That does help with dust but primarily it helps cool all the random components in the case - your VRM's, ram modules, random heatsinks and whatever... the greater the air*flow* the better it is for all your parts.

I have 4 in and 3 out in my system, with as many cracks and gaps sealed up as possible - feeling the heat passively venting out from my monster 3090 *where i want it to be* is really nice in winter (i'll cry in summer)


----------



## robot zombie (Sep 18, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Err Long post , ended well, theorising isn't going to get you there.


That sentence says a lot.

If you really want to know what's best, try it and note the outcome. I like forums for info sometimes, and honestly this has spawned a great discussion. But what this is making me acutely aware of is this sense that one cannot factor in every possible variable and outcome. Coming from HVAC, what makes sense on paper (or in conversation/planning) doesn't always play out how you think, even when you think that it should. Because you can't think of everything. But you can learn from experience, whereas advice and commentary sometimes leave more questions. You can use those questions to inform your own experience.

Fluid systems are very strange. The physics behind them are difficult. All I can say. There are all of these general rules that tend to fly. But ultimately you must configure them for the exact circumstances they are placed in. Occasionally changes need to be made later. There are hidden details. Hell, in my own work there are some times when I don't even know why something works better, and think it shouldn't. And I'm supposed to know what I'm doing! 

My experience tells me that a lot of these conversations are just that, conversations. No offense to anyone here. To me, there are just practical limits to internet thought exercises and sometimes you just have to see what happens in the real world or spend your days wondering about things that may or may not matter.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> That just means that your power limit is set too high. Something like that shouldn't happen in prime95, as it is close to many BOINC workloads or encoding stuff. It's not unrealistic load and your hardware has to handle that for long periods of time. For thermal testing, you could just disable turbo at all and test at base speed and fixed fan rpms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Furmark is malicious for GPUs in the sense of it presenting an unrealistic load; GPUs will clock back but still use almost maximum board power until the bios limits them (specifically for Furmark!);  the result is not testing anything useful - low efficiency power usage at a low clock at the very best is a ridiculous way to test your cooling. You are not testing OC stability, not testing temp at a realistic load scenario and you are not testing behaviour under boost clocks either. Simply because you wont get them. 

Time Spy or other actual benchmark runs do present all of those things and still serve as max load/temp scenarios for GPU.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Then it's not fine. It's set too high, lower it and it will be fine in prime and you shouldn't see any performance effect everywhere else.


It is fine for everything, except for Prime95. Why would I want to undersize my power limits just to suit a power virus type program that has no practical use?



The red spirit said:


> Not sure what hell is, but it's not much different from using your GPU for Collatz@Home or MilkyWay@Home or playing a video game that utilizes it to 100%.


Just as @Vayra86 said it. It is very different.



The red spirit said:


> Well, I currently have set PL1 to 75 watts and PL2 to 80 watts, Tau is Intel spec so probably 28 seconds. Anyway, my cooling handles this chip with power limits lifted it's just that it tops out at high 70s, maybe low 80s. I prefer not to exceed 70C as is is recommended temperature limit for maximum turbo boost, else cooler with stock fan curve will be at 100% speed. And it's nice for VRMs too as I likely have one of those boards, that can't handle i9k.


75-80 W is very low for Comet/Rocket Lake. You easily reach it in everyday applications even with 6 cores. My 11700 eats around 65-70 W in games with a 50-ish % load. If your cooling is good enough, try raising your PL1 to above 150 W, and you'll see how much different Prime95 and Cinebench are.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> It is fine for everything, except for Prime95. Why would I want to undersize my power limits just to suit a power virus type program that has no practical use?
> 
> 
> Just as @Vayra86 said it. It is very different.
> ...



Yep... my 4.7 Ghz on the 6c 8700K took upwards of 130W, and at 140-150W air just cant keep it under control anymore.

75-80W is nothing. I ran that (77W package) on the 3570K with a 20 dollar Gelid Tranquillo Rev 2 

That said, in my world an OC is only useful if it is rock solid. I do stress everything with Prime95, 15 minute run at least, additionally with OCCT for a 30 minute linpack in which I want zero errors. The only crash from CPU instability Ive had was a 100C Bsod in hot summer last year.

Not running a full blown stress test because you hit thermals is basically just a shitty OC that doesnt work. You do OC for peak performance, right? Otherwise its just a fancy epeen number really.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Yep... my 4.7 Ghz on the 6c 8700K took upwards of 130W, and at 140-150W air just cant keep it under control anymore.
> 
> 75-80W is nothing. I ran that (77W package) on the 3570K with a 20 dollar Gelid Tranquillo Rev 2
> 
> ...


Peak performance in what? A 30-minute Cinebench run is plenty of stability testing for me.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 18, 2021)

Cinebench isn’t a stress test though, and furmark can be dangerous


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Peak performance in what? A 30-minute Cinebench run is plenty of stability testing for me.



Cinebench is very light and a performance bench, not a stress test.

You can shop selectively as you like but its an illusion cinebench is for stability testing.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Cinebench is very light and a performance bench, not a stress test.
> 
> You can shop selectively as you like but its an illusion cinebench is for stability testing.


I know it's not, but it's more representative of a CPU load that you encounter real-life with programs that you actually use.

Another topic: I couldn't wait until after my holiday, so I did the swap. Radiator in the front, acting as intake, case fans on the top, no dust filters. My first reaction even without thermal testing is that the system just got A LOT louder. I don't know why. My guess is that my case fans don't like being mounted horizontally. They also produce a lot more airflow than the AIO fans on the rad, resulting in a negative pressure situation inside the case. With no dust filters, this won't be good long-term. This is a setup that I already don't like. I'm not even sure if I want to go through thermal testing.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Furmark is malicious for GPUs in the sense of it presenting an unrealistic load; GPUs will clock back but still use almost maximum board power until the bios limits them (specifically for Furmark!);  the result is not testing anything useful - low efficiency power usage at a low clock at the very best is a ridiculous way to test your cooling. You are not testing OC stability, not testing temp at a realistic load scenario and you are not testing behaviour under boost clocks either. Simply because you wont get them.
> 
> Time Spy or other actual benchmark runs do present all of those things and still serve as max load/temp scenarios for GPU.


There's no evidence to suggest that. I say to you GPU uses nearly the same amount of watts, gets pretty much as hot as in Heaven. If you have such argument, you gotta have proof.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I know it's not, but it's more representative of a CPU load that you encounter real-life with programs that you actually use



And you claim to know what instructions your CPU will and will not use and how much power it will draw? Interesting 

An example: firing up Overwatch utilizes a high performance bit of AVX and loads on multiple threads. It pushes the 8700K to 80+ C here, if only briefly. It was this game that managed to peak over 100C in the earlier example and BSODs for it. 

So you might want to draw your own conclusions on that  Dont for a second think you know what a 'real world' load is supposed to look like. It simply is selective shopping to lower the bar for an OC thats probably better off a few hundred mhz lower. After all, if you arent fully loading the CPU, why even OC it out of its efficiency curve? The practical use is negligible...



The red spirit said:


> There's no evidence to suggest that. I say to you GPU uses nearly the same amount of watts, gets pretty much as hot as in Heaven. If you have such argument, you gotta have proof.



Monitor your clocks and power draw then. "Pretty much" says enough. Stop deluding yourself  This info on Furmark is very old news that has not changed since.






						why does'nt my gpu clock speed go fully up?
					

hey guys so i have a zotac gtx 1050ti mini + i5 4460 i oc'd it to 1504 mhz on d clock and 2002 mhz on d mem clock but when i stress tested it with furmark, d gpu clock reaches a max of 1341 mhz. is this fine or is something wrong?(i'm a noob) also this computer is powered by a 300w psu... am i sa...




					linustechtips.com
				









						Furmark lower FPS and lower score on higher gpu clock and power limit?
					

Is that due to Nvidia built in Protection, when I run furmark at 113% power limit, it hits around 1750-1800Mhz and gives 200 FPS but when I run 113% power limit, it goes 2000-2040Mhz but at 155 FPS? Palit 3070 Gaming Pro




					linustechtips.com
				




Need more?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 18, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> If you have such argument, you gotta have proof.


You might as well go looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> It is fine for everything, except for Prime95. Why would I want to undersize my power limits just to suit a power virus type program that has no practical use?


Because as you say, no other software makes your CPU to consume as many watts and you know that t's bad if it does. 



AusWolf said:


> Just as @Vayra86 said it. It is very different.


No explanation why. BTW Furmark seems to be similar to MSI Kombustor or OCCT's GPu stress test.



AusWolf said:


> 75-80 W is very low for Comet/Rocket Lake. You easily reach it in everyday applications even with 6 cores. My 11700 eats around 65-70 W in games with a 50-ish % load.


That's where you are wrong. i5 10400F at full load in games and maximum all core boot consumes 50-55 watts. Maximum all core boost is 4GHz. There are plenty of loads that can be executed at maximum boost and fit within 65 watt PL1. I really have to go out of my way to each 80 watts and only prime95 was able to push it to more than 90. 




AusWolf said:


> If your cooling is good enough, try raising your PL1 to above 150 W, and you'll see how much different Prime95 and Cinebench are.


I literally told you that I ran rime95 with PLs lifted (set to 4095). My cooling was able to cope with that, but I don't want my hardware to be able to reach such temperatures (were in low 80s on CPU). Cinebench R23 is still less demanding, so outcome would be the same.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 18, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You might as well go looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...


Not to worry, I am Irish..

And Scottish too, but don't worry I'm not gonna show you my Caber


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 18, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> And you claim to know what instructions your CPU will and will not use and how much power it will draw? Interesting
> 
> An example: firing up Overwatch utilizes a high performance bit of AVX and loads on multiple threads. It pushes the 8700K to 80+ C here, if only briefly. It was this game that managed to peak over 100C in the earlier example and BSODs for it.
> 
> ...


I think many do not realise Nvidia definitely ,and AMD also possibly, watch for power viruses especially furmark and limit they're own performance via driver, and have for a while.

Furmark doesn't run unconstrained.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Monitor your clocks and power draw then. "Pretty much" says enough. Stop deluding yourself  This info on Furmark is very old news that has not changed since.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. Look mate, I modded my own Polaris card vBIOS and no matter what software it runs, it has universal power limits. There's nothing Furmark specific that can hard your GPU. Perhaps old cards, which didn't have AMD PowerTune or nV equivalent, could indeed burn out or be damaged. But that's because they had piss poor cooling and just so so electrical components. And then you would need to go back to pre Radeon HD 6000 series for that. And then again why does Furmark get all shit? MSI Kombustor, OCCT stress test run literally the same thing and people are fine with that.



TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I think many do not realise Nvidia definitely ,and AMD also possibly, watch for power viruses especially furmark and limit they're own performance* via driver*, and have for a while.


No, it's through vBIOS. Card OEM sets allowed wattages (yes wattage*s*, there's small power limit, maximum power limit, TDC, TDP) for card.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 18, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I think many do not realise Nvidia definitely ,and AMD also possibly, watch for power viruses especially furmark and limit they're own performance via driver, and have for a while.


That's what I thought too..

A couple of years ago when I got my 980 Classified I thought it would be neat to see how much power a 3770K running at 4600MHz static loaded with Linpack Xtreme, and a well clocked 980 Classy can draw. That number was 750w. I didn't believe it, so I just ran the GPU and that was showing 500w at the wall. Scary stuff.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You might as well go looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...


You know people said that Amazon's New World also killed cards, when some poorly models kicked the bucket.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> And you claim to know what instructions your CPU will and will not use and how much power it will draw? Interesting
> 
> An example: firing up Overwatch utilizes a high performance bit of AVX and loads on multiple threads. It pushes the 8700K to 80+ C here, if only briefly. It was this game that managed to peak over 100C in the earlier example and BSODs for it.
> 
> So you might want to draw your own conclusions on that  Dont for a second think you know what a 'real world' load is supposed to look like. It simply is selective shopping to lower the bar for an OC thats probably better off a few hundred mhz lower. After all, if you arent fully loading the CPU, why even OC it out of its efficiency curve? The practical use is negligible...


Fair enough - I haven't played Overwatch. The only way I've tested an AVX load is with the CPU-Z benchmark, but that doesn't even use as much power as Cinebench for some reason (just clocks 100 MHz lower because of AVX).



The red spirit said:


> No explanation why. BTW Furmark seems to be similar to MSI Kombustor or OCCT's GPu stress test.





The red spirit said:


> There's no evidence to suggest that. I say to you GPU uses nearly the same amount of watts, gets pretty much as hot as in Heaven. If you have such argument, you gotta have proof.





The red spirit said:


> Yes. Look mate, I modded my own Polaris card vBIOS and no matter what software it runs, it has universal power limits. There's nothing Furmark specific that can hard your GPU. Perhaps old cards, which didn't have AMD PowerTune or nV equivalent, could indeed burn out or be damaged. But that's because they had piss poor cooling and just so so electrical components. And then you would need to go back to pre Radeon HD 6000 series for that. And then again why does Furmark get all shit? MSI Kombustor, OCCT stress test run literally the same thing and people are fine with that.
> 
> 
> No, it's through vBIOS. Card OEM sets allowed wattages (yes wattage*s*, there's small power limit, maximum power limit, TDC, TDP) for card.


OK, own example with the 5700 XT: In games (100% load) it ran at about 75 °C (90-95 hot spot) and fluctuated between 2000 and 2050 MHz. When I fired up Furmark, the core hit 90 °C (~100 hot spot), and clocked all the way down to the 1800 MHz region. You can't explain this purely based on power limits. It is not representative of a gaming load at all.



The red spirit said:


> That's where you are wrong. i5 10400F at full load in games and maximum all core boot consumes 50-55 watts. Maximum all core boost is 4GHz. There are plenty of loads that can be executed at maximum boost and fit within 65 watt PL1. I really have to go out of my way to each 80 watts and only prime95 was able to push it to more than 90.
> 
> I literally told you that I ran rime95 with PLs lifted (set to 4095). My cooling was able to cope with that, but I don't want my hardware to be able to reach such temperatures (were in low 80s on CPU). Cinebench R23 is still less demanding, so outcome would be the same.


That is strange. Comet Lake isn't very different from Rocket Lake in terms of power/performance. Maybe your motherboard has some better than average voltage distribution, or I don't know.

Edit: Another update: I turned off my case fans, and now the system is completely silent. So it's confirmed: the stock Corsair fans provided with my case don't like being mounted horizontally.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> OK, own example with the 5700 XT: In games (100% load) it ran at about 75 °C (90-95 hot spot) and fluctuated between 2000 and 2050 MHz. When I fired up Furmark, the core hit 90 °C (~100 hot spot), and clocked all the way down to the 1800 MHz region. You can't explain this purely based on power limits. It is not representative of a gaming load at all.


Sure, it is a heavy load, not denying that, but it doesn't do any damage. I ran Furmark on ATi X800 XT Platinum Edition and everything was fine. That card didn't have any throttling and only a small heatsink. 




AusWolf said:


> That is strange. Comet Lake isn't very different from Rocket Lake in terms of power/performance. Maybe your motherboard has some better than average voltage distribution, or I don't know.


Nothing strange at all. Rocket Lake consumes more watts per GHz. Also my chip tops out at all core 4GHz and single core 4.3GHz, at that point you are in really bad diminishing return curve already, in fact, for Rocket Lake it is at 3.3-3.7 GHz depending on your bin or maybe even less. Yours can reach higher clock speeds and you have 25% more cores, so there's no wonder that it consumes way more power. It's more surprising, that it doesn't turn into inferno. And no, my motherboard has really basic (poor) VRMs, it's essentially the same VRM from DS3H model and that board uses VRM from Gigabyte's bottom of the barrel boards like S3, DS3 or S2H. I only got fancy semi-functional heatsink.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 18, 2021)

i like dust its my second fav dirt with fluff being my Number 1.
+ pressure all the way in one of my riggs but it dont matter in my main rigg with it being a P5.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 18, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Yes. Look mate, I modded my own Polaris card vBIOS and no matter what software it runs, it has universal power limits. There's nothing Furmark specific that can hard your GPU. Perhaps old cards, which didn't have AMD PowerTune or nV equivalent, could indeed burn out or be damaged. But that's because they had piss poor cooling and just so so electrical components. And then you would need to go back to pre Radeon HD 6000 series for that. And then again why does Furmark get all shit? MSI Kombustor, OCCT stress test run literally the same thing and people are fine with that.
> 
> 
> No, it's through vBIOS. Card OEM sets allowed wattages (yes wattage*s*, there's small power limit, maximum power limit, TDC, TDP) for card.


How the FF are you now trying to make out you know furmark was limited but before were standing by it as a stress test and driver or weva it sees furmark and limits output as I said.

And no the bios sets initial limits, that CAN be defeated via power play tables on AMD on Nvidia they can't be defeated but the DRIVER can limit performance, as for which limits furmark I wouldn't suggest I Know it's the driver, but I sure as shit ain't taking your opinion for anything more than a opinion.



So my actual f£#@&£ point was right, yes.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 18, 2021)

Yawn
The primal95 and furryskidmark argument. Happy, happy, joy, joy!
There is no set in stone ocing guide everyone is obligated to follow. If your rig, does what you want it to do, the way you want it to do it, when you want it to do it. Rock on! Life is gud.
Just agree to disagree.



AusWolf said:


> Another topic: I couldn't wait until after my holiday, so I did the swap. Radiator in the front, acting as intake, case fans on the top, no dust filters. My first reaction even without thermal testing is that the system just got A LOT louder. I don't know why. My guess is that my case fans don't like being mounted horizontally. They also produce a lot more airflow than the AIO fans on the rad, resulting in a negative pressure situation inside the case. With no dust filters, this won't be good long-term. This is a setup that I already don't like. I'm not even sure if I want to go through thermal testing.



Did you test your gpu thermals/noise with no front filter prior to the swap by chance?


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 18, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> How the FF are you now trying to make out you know furmark was limited but before were standing by it as a stress test and driver or weva it sees furmark and limits output as I said.


But it's not driver, it's vBIOs that is limiting card speed. And if you want technical term, than it's firmware that does that, regardless of driver.




TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> And no the bios sets initial limits, that CAN be defeated via power play tables on AMD on Nvidia they can't be defeated but the DRIVER can limit performance, as for which limits furmark I wouldn't suggest I Know it's the driver, but I sure as shit ain't taking your opinion for anything more than a opinion.


Well you can override vBIOS values, if you raise power limit in Afterburner, but I'm talking about stock cards and even then by max 50%.


----------



## Ahhzz (Sep 18, 2021)

Guys. Original topic. Find it and stay there. Stop the back and forth, and debate the question on hand, please. There's some brilliant people in this thread, and on the forums, and they can all provide some quality input, but it's getting covered up by all this noise. Back to topic please.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

maxfly said:


> Yawn
> The primal95 and furryskidmark argument. Happy, happy, joy, joy!
> There is no set in stone ocing guide everyone is obligated to follow. If your rig, does what you want it to do, the way you want it to do it, when you want it to do it. Rock on! Life is gud.
> Just agree to disagree.


Let that be the last word on the matter. 



maxfly said:


> Did you test your gpu thermals/noise with no front filter prior to the swap by chance?


No, I didn't. Even with no filters installed, I still want something to filter incoming air. That's why I put the radiator there, which was obviously a bad idea. Not only are my case fans too noisy when mounted horizontally, but also, the heat coming from the rad made my GPU a couple degrees warmer while providing no decrease to CPU temps whatsoever. There's a reason why I've always recommended people to mount AIO rads on the top (or back) of their case as exhaust, and I'll keep recommending it. This time, speaking from experience.

Another update: I've decided. Instead of continuing a never-ending debate, I'll test the theory myself. I took out my H100i, and started advertising it. It's a nice AIO, but I've had enough of Corsair's bazillion cable mess anyway. When it sells, I'll buy a 280 mm AIO and 2x 14 cm fans, and see what works and how. In the meantime, I've got my trusty be quiet! Shadow Rock LP installed with Intel stock power limits. Whey-ho, it's so nice to see 2.8 GHz all-core again!  But who cares, I'm GPU limited 99% of the time anyway.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Yes. Look mate, I modded my own Polaris card vBIOS and no matter what software it runs, it has universal power limits. There's nothing Furmark specific that can hard your GPU. Perhaps old cards, which didn't have AMD PowerTune or nV equivalent, could indeed burn out or be damaged. But that's because they had piss poor cooling and just so so electrical components. And then you would need to go back to pre Radeon HD 6000 series for that. And then again why does Furmark get all shit? MSI Kombustor, OCCT stress test run literally the same thing and people are fine with that.
> 
> 
> No, it's through vBIOS. Card OEM sets allowed wattages (yes wattage*s*, there's small power limit, maximum power limit, TDC, TDP) for card.



I never said damage cards  re read my post.

I said it doesnt work as a stress test or realistic scenario. That was the topic I posted about: relevance of the different tests you can run. And yes, similar tests suffer the same issues.

OCCT GPU is not OCCT CPU either, the latter is superb, the former only serves the purpose of testing power supply.

Either way; Furmark for thermals alone, which is where we departed it also isnt optimal.


----------



## Shrek (Sep 18, 2021)

I think one thing that is left out by the negative/positive pressure argument is turbulence; turbulent air on a heatsink will help with heat extraction.



AusWolf said:


> Guys, please, just one more time: I'm not concerned about dust! It goes wherever air moves. Period.



Both videos (in post 1) are basically a dust discussion, so I guess it was inevitable people would head in that direction; so I'd say dust was very much on-topic, and no, it doesn't go where the air goes; if one put in a switchback, the air would go round, but the dust would be caught.


----------



## Mussels (Sep 19, 2021)

Jaysus, all the arguing
Let's simplify this issue and let it end

If a stress test exposes hardware flaws (furmark, open world beta) it's the hardwares fault.
If your system is stable in some tests but crashes or overheats in others... it's the hardwares fault (or your settings for it)

You can choose to run on the edge of stability knowing that you're fine for your average use case, but many people think thats daft, and want the system 100% stable and cool running no matter what's thrown at it, open world is a good example of how a new program can expose the same hardware flaws and things die.

Back on topic, airflow is good. the air must flow. negative and positive aren't the issue, it's making sure air FLOWS over what needs to be cooled, and out of the case. Dust buildup is a secondary concern after you have sufficient airflow for cooling.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2021)

Mussels said:


> airflow is good. the air must flow. negative and positive aren't the issue


This.


Mussels said:


> Dust buildup is a secondary concern after you have sufficient airflow for cooling.


Exactly. There has been no science based testing to show that Positive VS Negative air pressure collects more dust in one condition rather than the other. What testing has shown is that the barometric pressure in a PC in one condition VS the other is measured in the thousandths of a single percent of PSI. There is no tangible difference between the two in the context of a PC. Testing has also shown that what contributes most to dust collection in a case is environmental conditions. More dust in the environment, more dust in the case. Want to keep dust from building up quickly? Keep your environment clean. Vacuum frequently.

Where cooling is concerned, there is no measurable difference between positive & negative pressure. Cooling depends exclusively on air flow and proper heat conduction to the air. If you want to effectively cool your PC, configure your fans to extract heat from your system in a way that works with the laws of physics(thermal dynamics and whatnot). Hot air rises, cool air descends. Following basic science principles will help achieve an optimal cooling solution.


----------



## Jetster (Sep 19, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> There has been no science based testing to show that Positive VS Negative air pressure collects more dust in one condition rather than the other.


I'm not trying to beat you up but you keep saying this like its a fact. When it's actually an opinion. You given no scientific evidence to show that is does not

So here is a factual example that having more air being forced in with  filters then is being sucked out the back will filter your air. So the majority of air will be as clean as the size of the filter. Yes he's a scientist.
If he adds exhaust fans to the top the presure in the case will drop and air will be pulled in from the back and everywhere else. Then that dust will increase but it will cool better. I rest my case, now I will go admire my dust free components.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I'm not trying to beat you up but you keep saying this like its a fact. When it's actually an opinion. You given no scientific evidence to show that is does not


It is not the consensus, it is a case of the more you know the less clear things become and vice versa.


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## Jetster (Sep 19, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It is not the consensus, it is a case of the more you know the less clear things become and vice versa.


Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary - Michael Crichton

I'm not sure  what you meant by that so I just went with some random quote. I'll stop now


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## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

Jetster said:


> Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary - Michael Crichton
> 
> I'm not sure  what you meant by that so I just went with some random quote. I'll stop now


I think positive pressure is good, that is all. A lot can be said while refraining oneself from naming names which is what I did there.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I'm not trying to beat you up but you keep saying this like its a fact. When it's actually an opinion. You given no scientific evidence to show that is does not


Neither has anyone else. The diference is I'm University educated and have a great deal of experience in airflow design. However, I'm not willing to write a 4 page essay on the matter. The evidence is out there if you want to learn.


Jetster said:


> So here is a factual example that having more air being forced in with  filters then is being sucked out the back will filter your air. So the majority of air will be as clean as the size of the filter. Yes he's a scientist.
> If he adds exhaust fans to the top the presure in the case will drop and air will be pulled in from the back and everywhere else. Then that dust will increase but it will cool better. I rest my case, now I will go admire my dust free components.


Sorry, that video was all talk and no merit and did not help your position. They used a smoke machine in a VERY basic demonstration to show airflow through the front filter with & without front fans, nothing more. They did NOT show long-term dust build-up, nor comparative dust performance or thermal performance measurements in a positive VS negative pressure scenario. There was nothing in that video of any scientific value to this topic.

The misconceptions about positive & negative air pressure scenario's stem from the clean-room good practice models.








						The Difference Between Positive and Negative Air Pressure Cleanrooms
					

Air pressure plays a leading role in keeping your cleanroom up to standard. Here's a breakdown of positive and negative air pressure cleanrooms.




					angstromtechnology.com
				



These kinds of clean room scenario's do not and can not apply to a PC case as the usage model is extremely different. The only way to prevent dust contamination in a PC case, or reduce it in any tangible manner, is to operate said PC inside a clean-room type environment. Dust contamination differences in common air environment electronics that need air-flow induced cooling is insignificant.

Dust is easily cleaned and is of minimal concern unless the user of a PC is either careless or lazy.

So the primary concern is, once again, cooling not dust. As there is no evidence to show that the differences between cooling effect between positive & negative air pressure in a PC case. The focus therefore needs to be on airflow. This is what the video effectively showed: Not that the filters were of any benefit, but that the addition of front mounted fans pulling air through that particular case created better airflow. It may not have been their intention, but is the result they proved. The filters actually inhibit airflow and as they collect large dust particles and become clogged, the airflow will dramatically diminish.

So once again, lose the air filters, add better fans and configure them for good airflow through your case, clean your system out every month or so(depending on how dusty your operating environment is) and enjoy!


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 19, 2021)

Well i am running mine positive. My temps are smashing, so i am very happy with it.  2x140 in on 280 rad, 2x120 in on 240 rad, 2x140 out No filters as i think the fact they filter dust is negated by the restriction and the clogging, which happens very quickly irrelevant of how clean you think your room is, there is always dust/skin flakes/smoke


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Well i am running mine positive.


You say that, but with the open back like you have(shown here), the pressure differences are actually insignificant. What you have actually done is create an airflow scheme through that case which draws air in from the sides and expels it out the front and other holes in the case.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 19, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You say that, but with the open back like you have(shown here), the pressure differences are actually insignificant. What you have actually done is create an airflow scheme through that case which draws air in from the sides and expels it out the front and other holes in the case.



I have covered the back as you can see on the pic  Shall i cover the vents in the bottom panel too? apart from the vent under the PSU obvs


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 19, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Dust is easily cleaned and is of minimal concern unless the user of a PC is either careless or lazy.


This. Nuff said on dust.


----------



## Mussels (Sep 19, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Dust is easily cleaned and is of minimal concern unless the user of a PC is either careless or lazy.


Or has nerve damage in their elbow and back, and lives in a dusty environment

It's a terrible idea to assume motivations or reasoning for others


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Or has nerve damage in their elbow and back, and lives in a dusty environment
> 
> It's a terrible idea to assume motivations or reasoning for others


He types utter nonsense unfortunately. Dust kills electronics. It is not how frequently it is removed that determines the build up. It is the filters and the compromise of clean vs dirty will be evident when the fin arrays of high heat components fill sooner and fans start failing, not before anything else.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I have covered the back as you can see on the pic  Shall i cover the vents in the bottom panel too? apart from the vent under the PSU obvs


Are you going to tape up or cover every single crack and opening in your case? 




Are you hell bent on maintaining positive pressure? You will not attain that goal without extreme measures and expense.



Mussels said:


> Or has nerve damage in their elbow and back, and lives in a dusty environment
> 
> It's a terrible idea to assume motivations or reasoning for others


While I meant no offense to you or anyone with physical limitations, taking the side off a case and blowing it out is almost a trivial task. There is also the option of having someone do it for you.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 19, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Are you going to tape up or cover every single crack and opening in your case?
> View attachment 217459
> Are you hell bent on maintaining positive pressure? You will not attain that goal without extreme measures and expense.
> 
> ...



Well no, i'm sure every case made has multiple openings and cracks, so i won't be going full retard and sealing all of them. The rear fan hole did need taping though.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 19, 2021)

Hi,
What you're describing is a test bench environment where there is neither positive or negative pressure issues.
Have fun dust be damned lol
https://modmymods.com/computer-cases/test-benches.html


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 19, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Are you going to tape up or cover every single crack and opening in your case?
> View attachment 217459
> Are you hell bent on maintaining positive pressure? You will not attain that goal without extreme measures and expense.
> 
> ...


Not for all, the ease of removing and cleaning two 360 rads and 12 fans is non existent, filtering is the only choice since 6monthly clean outs are a pain, I'm doing it now it couldn't reasonably be done effectively monthly.
Each to they're own , cooling, noise and cleaning level s are a compromise and personal choice, with no set right or wrong, that's the problem with this debate.
We're all after slightly different end results on slightly different use cases.


As for all my deleted posts on here I'm starting to wonder why some get low quality posted where's mine are deleted, noice not.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Not for all, the ease of removing and cleaning two 360 rads and 12 fans is non existent, filtering is the only choice since 6monthly clean outs are a pain, I'm doing it now it couldn't reasonably be done effectively monthly.
> Each to they're own , cooling, noise and cleaning level s are a compromise and personal choice, with no set right or wrong, that's the problem with this debate.
> We're all after slightly different end results on slightly different use cases.


How about mounting fans on radiators in a "pull" config? It's much easier to blow dust off of the rad than removing the whole thing to have access to the side where the fans are.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> How about mounting fans on radiators in a "pull" config? It's much easier to blow dust off of the rad than removing the whole thing to have access to the side where the fans are.


Hi,
Sorry but you said on many occasions dust is not what the op is about 
Have you changed your mind ?


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Sorry but you said on many occasions dust is not what the op is about
> Have you changed your mind ?


I was replying to a comment about cleaning. My post that you quoted has nothing to do with my original question. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Also, just because I said that dust is not part of my dilemma regarding my choice of cooling, I still believe that one should clean their PC regularly.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I was replying to a comment about cleaning. My post that you quoted has nothing to do with my original question. Sorry if that caused confusion.


Hi,
That I remember policy is filters and dust be damned 
Dust will be in the case regardless of what you do although you haven't done much if anything to improve the filtering aspect either.

Think you should look into test benches.


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## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> That I remember policy is filters and dust be damned
> Dust will be in the case regardless of what you do although you haven't done much if anything to improve the filtering aspect either.
> 
> Think you should look into test benches.


What has this got to do with anything? 

I posted my OP question about looking for cooling options that maximise airflow, while also being interested in what kind of case pressure is optimal for cooling efficiency. Now, I replied to a comment about cleaning (which you have to do anyway). Two separate things, okay?

Let's not use this forum for picking faults in each other's comments, please. It's so petty.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> What has this got to do with anything?
> 
> I posted my OP question about looking for cooling options that maximise airflow, while also being interested in what kind of case pressure is optimal for cooling efficiency. Now, I replied to a comment about cleaning (which you have to do anyway). Two separate things, okay?
> 
> Let's not use this forum for picking faults in each other's comments, please. It's so petty.


Hi,
Test benches don't have positive or negative pressure issues is my point.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Test benches don't have positive or negative pressure issues is my point.


No, test benches have 'negative pressure' and they have separate air flow channels to every component. Don't categorize them incorrectly - air comes in, gets hot, is expelled in a case with 'sealed' passive channels. The seal does not have to be strong, it just have to be induction oriented and not suction.

When someone tests in an open bench, the only missing factor is the missing intake seal. The rest is the same as a negative pressure setup and it will perform well because it has component flow separation which we want to emulate in normal case environment as well.

Dust is a separate argument. Don't mistake open bench with any sealed case. Dust can accumulate more in a case versus open bench because like we said and deaf ears don't listen - *it is a temperature proposition*. Hot air has less pressure, dust can separate and precipitate continuously when there is a higher temperature gradient within the case environment. Open benches don't negate that, they just lower the temperature gradient by allowing airflow discretization. The underlying reasons between their characteristics are very different why open benches and 'good' cases accumulate dust.
Don't pay attention to every bad suggestion you read in the internet. You know how your mileage may vary and components are not cheap.
TL;DR: temperature gradient will determine how much of the airflow dust will precipitate on your electronics. Open cases collect dust by a different mechanism correlated to higher flow volume, not temperature gradient like closed cases.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 19, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I think one thing that is left out by the negative/positive pressure argument is turbulence; turbulent air on a heatsink will help with heat extraction.
> 
> 
> 
> Both videos (in post 1) are basically a dust discussion, so I guess it was inevitable people would head in that direction; so I'd say dust was very much on-topic, and no, it doesn't go where the air goes; if one put in a switchback, the air would go round, but the dust would be caught.


Turbulence can cause deadspots in a case



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> That I remember policy is filters and dust be damned
> Dust will be in the case regardless of what you do although you haven't done much if anything to improve the filtering aspect either.
> 
> Think you should look into test benches.


Filters reduce dust is all, i made a point earlier about micron filters


----------



## Shrek (Sep 19, 2021)

Is a dust discussion allowed? or should I open a new thread.

I recall the discoloration that can occur behind house radiators because the rising air charges the surface which then attracts dust... so I wonder about fan blades and if a similar mechanism is in play. What if the blades were conducting (needs some additives to the plastic) and then grounded (this is the harder part).


----------



## Ahhzz (Sep 19, 2021)

I think getting into the aerodynamics of the specific components in a case and how they affect the air flow any more than "This drive is right in front of the case fan" is pretty ludicrous. Every case is going to flow a little different because a cable is in a different spot. Overall discussions of positive flow vs negative are more the point of this thread, and more helpful to new and old builders alike.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Turbulence can cause deadspots in a case


Higher than water level IQ! 



Andy Shiekh said:


> I recall the discoloration that can occur behind house radiators because the rising air charges the surface which then attracts dust...


I think we can soundly agree there is more rather than less to this topic than it seems to some.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 19, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Or has nerve damage in their elbow and back, and lives in a dusty environment
> 
> It's a terrible idea to assume motivations or reasoning for others



It is not even of a concern if you're lazy, like me, I've been collecting dust since jan 2019 like a boss, no problems here whatsoever. Now its gone and I've gained back the few degrees C I lost over the years. Its so boring, really.

PCs can handle a lot of abuse tbh, and we're being way too anal about things on TPU in that regard - anal about the WRONG things, too, while being careless about the things that might actually matter.

That said, I'll not assume  But _knowledge _is a big part of _motivation_, too, as is experience.

Lets be careful not to mistake sharing knowledge to inspire motivation for certain things (do's/don'ts) with 'arguing'... Arguing isn't always a bad thing either. If people are convinced of something you just need a few more voices (or repetitions) to get things across. 'Knowing better' still doesn't mean you have to go out and copy everything.



Ahhzz said:


> I think getting into the aerodynamics of the specific components in a case and how they affect the air flow any more than "This drive is right in front of the case fan" is pretty ludicrous. Every case is going to flow a little different because a cable is in a different spot. Overall discussions of positive flow vs negative are more the point of this thread, and more helpful to new and old builders alike.



What is also helpful is separating 'preferable' to 'preferable for one or more use cases', something that was painfully missing earlier.

There are situations, perhaps, where negative flow has advantages. Now thát is subject matter tbh. There is no be-all end-all.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> How about mounting fans on radiators in a "pull" config? It's much easier to blow dust off of the rad than removing the whole thing to have access to the side where the fans are.


Fair point , also makes me add another caveat to noise cooling performance, cleaning,. , appearance, I have 9 Corsair RGB fans so can't plus I have push pull on one rad push only on the roof rad.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Fair point , also makes me add another caveat to noise cooling performance, cleaning,. , appearance, I have 9 Corsair RGB fans so can't plus a push pull on one rad push only on the roof rad.


That's a fair point too. You wouldn't want to block your lights with a radiator. I used to have a similar config, but I just took some compressed air and blew it through the rad and fans. 



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Test benches don't have positive or negative pressure issues is my point.


That is true, though I still don't see how it's relevant. It's like telling someone to buy a moped when they were only asking how to improve gas mileage on their car.



Vayra86 said:


> Lets be careful not to mistake sharing knowledge to inspire motivation for certain things (do's/don'ts) with 'arguing'... Arguing isn't always a bad thing either. If people are convinced of something you just need a few more voices (or repetitions) to get things across. 'Knowing better' still doesn't mean you have to go out and copy everything.


Well said! Let's not mock one another for asking questions. Asking questions is a necessary step towards learning, not a reason to pick a fight. When you believe that you know everything is when you shield yourself from more knowledge and from other people. That's where the term _ignorance_ comes from, I believe. Ignorance towards learning. The purpose of an online forum is to share knowledge, not to mock other people for thinking differently, or for trying to learn. When has learning become a bad thing, anyway?


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> When has learning become a bad thing, anyway?


When we started taking everything personally. I remember vividly a discussion a few pages back about Furmark as if I was talking about the guy's baby. Its an application. Holy moly.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> When we started taking everything personally. I remember vividly a discussion a few pages back about Furmark as if I was talking about the guy's baby. Its an application. Holy moly.


Apparently one man's trash is another man's treasure.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> When we started taking everything personally.


I am taking this statement personally. Consider me seriously offended, and feel free to take my statement personally too.

I think I'm getting the hang of this modern online communication thing. 

Edit: It's a joke.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2021)

Ahhzz said:


> Every case is going to flow a little different because a cable is in a different spot.


This. Two different people can by the same case and even the same parts to go in them, but if one uses liquid cooling and the other uses are, the airflow dynamic is going to be different. As such fan configuration might potentially need adjustment one from the other.

It was wise for @AusWolf to as for opinions and insights as he might discover a better arrangement for cooling his particular system that was inspired here they might not have thought of previously.


----------



## rudijay (Oct 13, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> The title says it. In case any of you are unfamiliar of the topic, here are some great videos:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd just run an air purifier. simple and effective.


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## Mussels (Oct 13, 2021)

rudijay said:


> I'd just run an air purifier. simple and effective.


You'd think so, but this is my server in front of my air purifier... (It's in a crap spot as i have VDSL, and thats where the jack is)
I still have to clean it every week or so - but my vac died, so we're at week 2 of no cleaning.




Purifier is doing its job


This system is a bit odd, as it's ITX with a side facing AIO

Despite a big ass fan sucking all the dust in literally in front of it, nope: time to clog up!




Because the case has a weird design, it's only usable negative air pressure: look at the back

Negative pressure means dust is sucked in all the unfiltered places, and i have to air compressor the entire system. If it had positive air pressure, that PSU would be dust free instead of it's current clogged up state.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 13, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You'd think so, but this is my server in front of my air purifier... (It's in a crap spot as i have VDSL, and thats where the jack is)
> I still have to clean it every week or so - but my vac died, so we're at week 2 of no cleaning.
> View attachment 220582
> Purifier is doing its job
> ...



Does your house not have windows?

Holy crap man, I think the PPM of dust particles in your house is worse than walking Beijing streets in summer.

I notice it up here too... ventilation is everything, really. If I don't open the windows daily, it gets unpleasant fast.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Oct 13, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Does your house not have windows?
> 
> Holy crap man, I think the PPM of dust particles in your house is worse than walking Beijing streets in summer.
> 
> I notice it up here too... ventilation is everything, really. If I don't open the windows daily, it gets unpleasant fast.



He's an Aussie, that means not normal for us. For them pretty much normal to see sight like that.

Although he can solve that into investing into proper inhouse ventilation.


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## Mussels (Oct 13, 2021)

I live next to a forest. It's summer in spring.
A lot of that is pollen that i'm allergic to, and some dust.
Does opening windows make things BETTER where you are? The world is a weird place.

Point was, slight negative air pressure (2x140 in, 2x120 + 120 in PSU out) = visible buildup on unfiltered areas, and inside the system too.
It may be slower or less visible for other climates and houses, but it's still going to happen the same way, at a different rate.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 13, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You'd think so, but this is my server in front of my air purifier... (It's in a crap spot as i have VDSL, and thats where the jack is)
> I still have to clean it every week or so - but my vac died, so we're at week 2 of no cleaning.
> View attachment 220582
> Purifier is doing its job
> ...



This is my front panel after 2 months and 15 days





but inside the case isn't that bad, i guess some dust filters are better than others.
more intake= positive, so 8 intake + 5 exhaust is it positive?


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## freeagent (Oct 13, 2021)

This weekend I will dust off my bench, I haven't used it in awhile. Mainly because I get better temps in a case because my fans are ridiculous.

Edit:

I am a huge fan of positive pressure. I am running 3 in 1 out in my setup. It used to be like 4 or 5 in and 2 out.. but it wasn't really necessary.

Right now about 385cfm in, and 110 out providing they are all screaming together. 

As for dust.. yes it tis real, and I cannot escape it.

Running with the top sealed, no mesh, and no pci covers.


----------



## Mussels (Oct 13, 2021)

FireFox said:


> This is my front panel after 2 months and 15 days
> 
> View attachment 220748
> 
> ...


Yup thats positive, and focuses dust on the filter


----------



## claes (Oct 13, 2021)

Is it? Filters cut CFM significantly, as do radiators. It’d depend on the fan speeds and CFM.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 13, 2021)

No filters on mine, hoover every couple of weeks


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Is it? Filters cut CFM significantly, as do radiators. It’d depend on the fan speeds and CFM.


It is not about cfms, quite so much as laminar flow and turbulence. Remember: fans flow cfm whereas the air flows in a straight line. Inertia is your enemy. Therefore, the question becomes, "How best we can uniformally flow air inside the case" - the answer is the sealed venting system, invented by little old me. No thanks due, you can thank the tech journalists of old that inspired me to it. I really hate the shill vendor mouth pieces of recent years. No credit to them.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

You have a real knack for going wayyyy off topic lol


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

FireFox said:


> more intake= positive, so 8 intake + 5 exhaust is it positive?


If that case were sealed except for the fan ports, then yes, there would be a slightly higher level of air-pressure in your case. But as your case has venting holes and gaps all over the place, no. The air pressure in your case is no different than outside of it. In your situation, static airflow through the filter shown is the mechanism for the lowered dust level. However, a greater factor is likely to be a lower dust level in your home which would naturally contribute to lower dust levels in and around your case.

There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding between the concepts of "Air Pressure" and "Air Flow". They are not the same.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

IF all of the fans are the same and running at the same speed, you are still not looking at positive pressure, unless @FireFox were to remove the filters and radiators which, obviously, they haven’t. At best it’s equal, assuming the conditions I mentioned, but we don’t know radiator/filter placement, fan speeds, CFM/SP, etc, so IDK :shrug:

Simply doing some bogus 8 - 5 = 3 math completely ignores the circumstances people are dealing with. More, mtcn77 is often full of it, but so is the idea that not hermetically sealing a case = no pressure. Airflow matters, as we can always overcome buoyancy when we’re using pressure and airflow to force air where we want it to go


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> hermetically sealing


You are demonstrating your misunderstanding. I didn't say hermetic, I advocated for sealed passive vents. You really make it difficult on yourself if you are always so wary about anybody's statement.



claes said:


> Airflow matters, as we can always overcome buoyancy when we’re using pressure and airflow to force air where we want it to


That is an overstatement backed only by your selfrighteousness.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Jesus — everyone here is so interested in claiming authority and disinterested in the conversation.

Again, you have a knack for being wildly off-topic. I was responding to lex, who was arguing that because Firefox’s case has holes in it that either a) maintaining a positive or negative pressure was impossible or b) that 8 - 5 = 3 becomes moot because of holes designed for exhaust flow.

If you read more carefully, I was actually defending your assertion that air goes where it’s pushed, to be loose about it. Thanks for insulting me while I come to your defense!  Airflow _does_ matter — why else are you arguing for ducts?!

edits: whoops, mixed threads while drinking cocktail


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Firefox’s case has holes in it that either a) maintaining a positive or negative pressure was impossible


Yes, we seal them with tape.

Please do take your own advice and listen to what other users are typing.


claes said:


> everyone here is so interested in claiming authority and disinterested in the conversation.


That is not everyone... I see only one person here with that gross negligence, the one I'm spoonfeeding information to.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

You are ignoring the conversation and actively arguing for people, with more influence and generally better attuned (so many puns!) than you, who disagree with your premise, while I am defending an extrapolation based on your argument. Thanks for being rude about it.l and generally missing the point.

Edit: I agree — air goes where you direct it, and pressure can be increased with sealment. I don’t know why you are arguing against me so aggressively. Looking forward to you nitpicking about some wording in here and calling me an asshole.


----------



## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> If you read more carefully


I honestly would like the challenge for once, but you keep projecting these sentiments.



claes said:


> You are ignoring the conversation and actively arguing for people, with more influence and generally better attuned (so many puns!) than you, who disagree with your premise, while I am defending an extrapolation based on your argument. Thanks for being rude about it.


We are not on the same page and since I make the arguments, you better be attuned if you are to catch up on the premises you keep failing at.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

K, sorry for defending your argument I guess, thanks for swinging your dick around, it is really nice  :shrug:

edit: yes, we are definitely not on the same page


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> I am defending an extrapolation based on your argument.


This is not a debate club, we are arguing air cooling which does not take sides, or preference.



claes said:


> edit: yes, we are definitely not on the same page


Can we return to the topic you have attempted to digress from with your void inquiries? Thank you.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Mtcn says “pressure is possible,” lex says “nah,” claes says “yes, pressure is possible, even if not in perfect conditions,” mtcn says “no you’re wrong!”


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Mtcn says “pressure is possible,” lex says “nah,” claes says “yes, pressure is possible, even if not in perfect conditions,” mtcn says “no you’re wrong!”


Well, you are both trolls for that matter if you are asking which of us are.
PS: you might naively argue against lex as you say, but that is called "bringing it up" when it has already been said and done - not to discredit any merit in your statement.

Debates are moving objects, one cannot bring past points forward without touching the timeline.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Good point thanks for the contribution much help to OP


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Good point thanks for the contribution much help to OP


Clarifying flood posts that ruin the general understanding is good contribution in my books. I really don't like this attitude, could we leave our feelings out of it for once?


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## pavle (Oct 14, 2021)

You need all fans to blow out of the case to help vaporise the remaining speck of dust in the case.  

Seriously though, I have the same amount of fans for intake as for exhaust (power supply fan is counted) and the most important factor, filters! Intake air filters are important (you can gently clean them every week as you vacuum-clean the place). You can improvise on the material of which they're made, I use pantyhose/nylon for filters and it works well for my machines.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Oh wow lol — I got drunk and merged the HDD noise thread with this one lol. Still, somehow I managed to balance both and a confused troll! Huzzah for drinks  watching only murders in the building with a friend, hope you all are enjoying your evening!


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

pavle said:


> You need all fans to blow out of the case to help vaporise the remaining speck of dust in the case.
> 
> Seriously though, I have the same amount of fans for intake as for exhaust (power supply fan is counted) and the most important factor, filters! Intake air filters are important (you can gently clean them every week as you vacuum-clean the place). You can improvise on the material of which they're made, I use pantyhose/nylon for filters and it works well for my machines.


I'm thinking of using a shaving brush to dust out the crevices. I used soap when I cleaned the last time and it really did work with the detachable filters. Why not use it everywhere on fine dust?


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Fixed! Only one post


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Oh wow lol — I got drunk and merged the HDD noise thread with this one lol. Still, somehow I managed to balance both and a confused troll! Huzzah for drinks  watching only murders in the building with a friend, hope you all are enjoying your evening!


Don't drink. It kills your neurons if you still have left any. Too much free water, not enough salt is not good, causes brain atrophy. You are free to dismiss it, of course.


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## pavle (Oct 14, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I'm thinking of using a shaving brush to dust out the crevices. I used soap when I cleaned the last time and it really did work with the detachable filters. Why not use it everywhere on fine dust?


Of course, if the filter is removable you can use brush, but if not, some dust will fall into the case. Now even with my filters there's still what I call "microdust" in the case but much less than without them.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Don't drink. It kills your neurons if you still have left any. Too much free water, not enough salt is not good, causes brain atrophy. You are free to dismiss it, of course.


You mean any left*. I’m aware, thanks! I take supplements to overcome hangovers! Thanks for all that dick though!


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> You mean any left*. I’m aware, thanks! I take supplements to overcome hangovers! Thanks for all that dick though!


Supplements are toxic. All you need is breakfast(turkish is like the mediterranean salad) and eggs.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Thanks for the condescending and oddly nationalistic advice! I eat plenty of salads and start my day with an omelette! Have a good night!


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Still, somehow I managed to balance both and *still be* a confused troll!


Fixed that for you.


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## FireFox (Oct 14, 2021)

@claes 
I have a question for you.
Let's say i have 3 top fans exhaust ( push) and then i add another 3 and make it 6 push-pull, are those top fans still counted as 3 exhaust or 6 exhaust?


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fixed that for you.


Lol, mtcn is throwing you under the bus, defending an argument that you are disagreeing with, and now you’re just hurling insults because they disagree with me, even though we both think you’re wrong… this is too rich.



FireFox said:


> @claes
> I have a question for you.
> Let's say i have 3 top fans exhaust ( push) and then i add another 3 and make it 6 push-pull, are those top fans still counted as 3 exhaust or 6 exhaust?


It depends! Even if we assume they are all the same fans, running at the same speeds, there is still a PQ curve to account for, in addition to any obstructions (radiator, chassis air-hole machining, filters).

I would say no, which is why I joked about the “8 - 5 = 3, therefore positive pressure” math before (no offense, we’re all learning (maybe not the know-it-all’s, but hopefully!)). In the abstract, sure, if we’re accounting for a singular set of obstructions, but most fan specs are measured without resistance/obstructions and don’t scale linearly (thus the PQ curves, which are typically measured in free air and will of course change in the face of resistance).

Edit: what we can say is that there are really diminishing returns for push-pull in a chassis, to the tune of 1-4 degrees. I’m sure someone else can speak to why things don’t scale too well, so I’ll leave it to them. I’d say that there’s so much resistance (due to radiator fins, chassis holes, and filters), that there’s only so much our sweet little fans can do, but I feel like I read that the same happens in ducts and other more optimal conditions.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

FireFox said:


> @claes
> I have a question for you.
> Let's say i have 3 top fans exhaust ( push) and then i add another 3 and make it 6 push-pull, are those top fans still counted as 3 exhaust or 6 exhaust?


Now let's clarify. What you are saying is having 3 fans blowing air out of the system and then you add 3 more fans stacked with/behind them blowing air out of the system?

If this is what you're saying, then no. You added static pressure to the existing 3 fans, but not added any extra speed or extra airflow. Put another way, you have made the airflow through those vents stronger but not faster. The downside is that you added extra noise because the fan blade arrays being in such close proximity to each other will create additional turbulence that was not there before. So the additional power in the airflow is not 1+1=2. It's more like 1+1=1.4. You're not increasing the CFPM of air being moved, only increasing the force being applied to it's movement.

Does that make sense?


----------



## FireFox (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Lol, mtcn is throwing you under the bus, defending an argument that you are disagreeing with, and now you’re just hurling insults because they disagree with me, even though we both think you’re wrong… this is too rich.
> 
> 
> It depends! Even if we assume they are all the same fans, running at the same speeds, there is still a PQ curve to account for, in addition to any obstructions (radiator, chassis air-hole machining, filters).
> ...



The 8x front fans + the 2x exhaust are 120mm 43.25 CFM, the 3x top are 140mm 51.5 CFM, sure they don't run at the same speed because the 120mm increase/decrease speed depending CPU temps and the 140mm depending GPU temp.



lexluthermiester said:


> Now let's clarify. What you are saying is having 3 fans blowing air out of the system and then you add 3 more fans stacked with/behind them blowing air out of the system?


Exactly.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Exactly.


Just wanted to make sure I understood your thought. My advise is not to stack your fans. If you need more airflow, buy a fan with higher RPM ratings. Stacking fans does little and makes for a very, needlessly, noisy setup.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Just wanted to make sure I understood your thought. My advise is not to stack your fans. If you need more airflow, buy a fan with higher RPM ratings. Stacking fans does little and makes for a very, needlessly, noisy setup.


Wait, there is a misunderstanding.
It's not stacking one fan to the other it's adding 3 more fans to the rad which makes it 6 fans ( push-pull ) so it helps to move the air through the rad.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

FireFox said:


> It's not stacking one fan to the other it's adding 3 more fans to the rad which makes it 6 fans ( push-pull ) so it helps to move the air through the rad.


Is there anything inbetween the rad and the dual set of fans?


----------



## FireFox (Oct 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Is there anything inbetween the rad and the dual set of fans?


Like what?
It's fan - rad -fan - dust filter.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Like what?
> It's fan - rad -fan - dust filter.


Then the effect is the same. You are only adding force to the airflow, not speed and with the extra fans you are adding a lot of noise. Want you want to do instead is buy faster fans with stronger motors. This will improve airflow while not more than doubling the the noise being generated.

Just an FYI, having your dust filter behind the fans does nothing to reduce dust in your system, it only reduces airflow of exhaust air. Remove that filter and air will flow much more freely out of the system. Air filters should only ever be in front of intake air vents on a PC case, never behind a fan in the exhaust vents.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 14, 2021)

I don't like filters as a rule, imo they are restrictive. I don't bother with them, and just clean regularly. I'm not sure how much positive/negative mine is, but there does not seem to be much dust in it. This is after about 3 weeks


----------



## FireFox (Oct 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Want you want to do instead is buy faster fans with stronger motors. This will improve airflow while not more than doubling the noise being generated.


I would have done that maybe 3 years ago when for me fans noise wasn't a problem but with my last build i went for silent fans, then adding 13 fans to be controlled by the Motherboard isn't a great idea because i hate the way they ramp up when there's some load, it's annoying, another thing is that i prefer that the GPU and CPU fans work separately depending on their temp and not on CPU load.


lexluthermiester said:


> Just an FYI, having your dust filter behind the fans does nothing to reduce dust in your system, it only reduces airflow of exhaust air. Remove that filter and air will flow much more freely out of the system. Air filters should only ever be in front of intake air vents on a PC case, never behind a fan in the exhaust vents.


That's the point.
My problem is how to remove the dust from the top when it's time to clean it.

Top filter, never had been cleaned.






Tigger said:


> I don't like filters as a rule, imo they are restrictive. I don't bother with them, and just clean regularly. I'm not sure how much positive/negative mine is, but there does not seem to be much dust in it. This is after about 3 weeks


How many rads you have, and can you remove the front Panel?


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 14, 2021)

FireFox said:


> How many rads you have, and can you remove the front Panel?



I have 2x120 in left rad, 2x140 in right rad, and 2x140 out on the front. Yes front panel comes off


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## FireFox (Oct 14, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Yes front panel comes off


Then it's easy for you to clean it and you can do without filter, for me it's not the same.

Front panel cant be removed


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## freeagent (Oct 14, 2021)

Be nice to each other, I was banned from this thread, and it can happen to you too!


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 14, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Be nice to each other, I was banned from this thread, and it can happen to you too!



Did you ban yourself?


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## 95Viper (Oct 14, 2021)

Stay on topic.
Behave and stop the bickering.
Follow the Guidelines/Rules.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2021)

I think what has been hard to get the message across is quantity does not make up for quality. We can have all the airflow in the world, but that would make the particular case circulation be turbulent which is not what we want with "positive air pressure".
There can only be a finite amount of air volume per case cross section. We don't want to violate that and cause noise & dust build up.

Don't mix up the two.

We can only accelerate air so much until flow separations start making noise at the fan blade inlet & outlet. This being the limiting factor, then it becomes a question of how far the forced convection 'air fan' is from the actively cooled component(head a.k.a pressure vs. distance). It makes the solution very much a parametric one. You can choose a larger case, or find a smaller one with directed air channels to the components. Either way, your performance will be fine from the get go.


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## Mussels (Oct 15, 2021)

FireFox said:


> @claes
> I have a question for you.
> Let's say i have 3 top fans exhaust ( push) and then i add another 3 and make it 6 push-pull, are those top fans still counted as 3 exhaust or 6 exhaust?


3, it's the same airflow you're just increasing the pressure


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 15, 2021)

FireFox said:


> My problem is how to remove the dust from the top when it's time to clean it.


Don't use a filter on your top exhaust vents, then you will not need to worry about cleaning it and you won't have any air flow resistance out the top..



freeagent said:


> Be nice to each other, I was banned from this thread, and it can happen to you too!


Wait, did I miss something? I'm not seeing any hostilities going on.
Nevermind, had to click "show ignored content"..



FireFox said:


> Then it's easy for you to clean it and you can do without filter, for me it's not the same.
> 
> Front panel cant be removed
> 
> View attachment 220812


That glass panel can't be removed? Odd design..


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## FireFox (Oct 15, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That glass panel can't be removed?..


Not the traditional way.

Hard way - min 3:10 ( i am not willing to do that every 2 months  )












lexluthermiester said:


> Don't use a filter on your top exhaust vents, then you will not need to worry about cleaning it


I wasn't talking about cleaning the top filter but cleaning the inside top glass of the case, it cant be removed


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## mtcn77 (Oct 15, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Not the traditional way.
> 
> Hard way - min 3:10 ( i am not willing to do that every 2 months  )
> 
> ...


That is how we do it. You take pliers and crimp the inserts.


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## FireFox (Oct 15, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> That is how we do it. You take pliers and crimp the inserts.


?


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 15, 2021)

Although dust can be an issue where I live and the fact I have almost 20 dogs the living room my pc stays is dog free and cleaned regularly so my thinking with ambient temps being so high dust filters and possitive pressure wasn't a good idea.

 But I have the greatest enemy to electronics here... House geckos!!! They have destroyed 2 air conditioners a refrigerator and a TV in the 6 years I've lived here so when my pc isn't running it's covered over this also stops dust settling while no fans are running.


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## Jetster (Oct 26, 2021)

I took a shot in the dark and bought this. 
Very impressed how well it works, and I have way less dust getting on my PC
On sale it was $140. I can't believe I waited so long. I thought it would get hung up on stuff
but it doesn't. A couple of small changes I had to make but really happy with it.


----------



## KLiKzg (Oct 27, 2021)

Noticed that Lenovo C30 does need to be closed, in order to function properly. Otherwise the CPU overheats, as no stream of air is coming through it.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 27, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I took a shot in the dark and bought this.
> Very impressed how well it works, and I have way less dust getting on my PC
> On sale it was $140. I can't believe I waited so long. I thought it would get hung up on stuff
> but it doesn't. A couple of small changes I had to make but really happy with it.


I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread.



KLiKzg said:


> Noticed that Lenovo C30 does need to be closed, in order to function properly. Otherwise the CPU overheats, as no stream of air is coming through it.


Some OEMs engineer their cases like that.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread.


He made a joke while you on the other hand deny that positive pressure makes for a difference.
The irony being you both are in the same fence(dust in the environment) despite cannot agree on a single note is a good sense of humour to me.
Please don't take it the wrong way, I cannot take another y/n debate. Cheers.


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## maxfly (Oct 27, 2021)

It looks like he meant to post in the "what have you bought today thread".


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## mtcn77 (Oct 27, 2021)

maxfly said:


> It looks like he meant to post in the "what have you bought today thread".


Yes, but both get dust out of the way which is what people in this post in the say no to positive pressure group is defending.

You don't have it both ways, either you are /n to positive pressure and argue against it saying filters are like useless RGB for cases and you can control dust from the outside with what - you guessed it, "a vacuum cleaner" - or, that positive pressure and filters can keep a case from collecting dust.

Not trying to stir up more heated debate. I just want to show my understanding of the current standings where I feel: you are more fractioned among yourselves, those that don't believe the utilities of "positive pressure".

It might as well be that you are more sophisticated and arguing for finer tastes, but I will hold my opinion that there is less fractioned opinion among us that support positive pressure without involving the merit of our argument.

May I ask whether you would concede to that, "yes to pressure" side of the debate is more unanimous in their decision? Because I don't see any counter arguments among ourselves that do agree to positive pressure. I'm not trying to confound this with statistical significance of its causation, but I see it as more statistical weight correlation since it looks like a more consciously given preference.


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## skizzo (Oct 27, 2021)

I think someone could be looking at this with a bit of tunnel vision to believe that user posted in the wrong thread. They post about a product they purchased that cleans up dust which is what is being debated about how to keep it out of the PC.....well I'd say it could be argued, and well at that, that the best way to not get dust in the PC is to not have dust in the room/building the PC is in. so keep your spaces clean in other words as a good starting point. The connection is clear to me. So until we all can afford to build industrial level clean rooms for our PCs, we will have to resort to more obtainable methods lol

I have wood stove and stack at least 15 cords of wood in my basement every year. It is ABSOLUTELY FILTHY how much dust gets in the air due to this. I tend to get the best filters possible, so high MERV ratings, so when my furnace does run and circulate air around the house it doesn't deposit that into a room that needs to be kept much cleaner, like my computer room.  That individual is taking the approach with a preemptive advantage by having one of those like roomba vacuums (or whatever they're called) run around. and that's not such a bad idea from my point of view. I've been known to take standing fans and box fans and take my furnace filters and attach them to those fans and let them rip down in the basement. yet another way to filter out all that dust. a bit ghetto or redneck engineering, but that's how I roll

as for negative or positive....I've always made intake slighter higher RPM than exhaust, should the system have the adjustment capability, so positive pressure


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 27, 2021)

skizzo said:


> I think someone could be looking at this with a bit of tunnel vision to believe that user posted in the wrong thread. They post about a product they purchased that cleans up dust which is what is being debated about how to keep it out of the PC.....well I'd say it could be argued, and well at that, that the best way to not get dust in the PC is to not have dust in the room/building the PC is in. so keep your spaces clean in other words as a good starting point. The connection is clear to me. So until we all can afford to build industrial level clean rooms for our PCs, we will have to resort to more obtainable methods lol
> 
> I have wood stove and stack at least 15 cords of wood in my basement every year. It is ABSOLUTELY FILTHY how much dust gets in the air due to this. I tend to get the best filters possible, so high MERV ratings, so when my furnace does run and circulate air around the house it doesn't deposit that into a room that needs to be kept much cleaner, like my computer room.  That individual is taking the approach with a preemptive advantage by having one of those like roomba vacuums (or whatever they're called) run around. and that's not such a bad idea from my point of view. I've been known to take standing fans and box fans and take my furnace filters and attach them to those fans and let them rip down in the basement. yet another way to filter out all that dust. a bit ghetto or redneck engineering, but that's how I roll
> 
> as for negative or positive....I've always made intake slighter higher RPM than exhaust, should the system have the adjustment capability, so positive pressure


Except that Jetster wasn't talking about the subject of this thread at all in his post. He was talking about his latest purchase. I think YOU are grasping at straws with your very flawed assumption above.


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## Jetster (Oct 27, 2021)

I posted it here because of the reference of dust in room related to the subject of the thread. I have dust because I have a cat. I use positive pressure to keep the dust out of the case.
I thought maybe a robot vacuum might help keep the dust down, and was surprised it does so well. So I thought I would post it in this thread. Just thinking outside the box.

I think you all overthink stuff and you're off topic


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 27, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I posted it here because of the reference of dust in room related to the subject of the thread. I have dust because I have a cat. I use positive pressure to keep the dust out of the case.
> I thought maybe a robot vacuum might help keep the dust down, and was surprised it does so well. So I thought I would post it in this thread. Just thinking outside the box.
> 
> I think you all overthink stuff and you're off topic


Fair enough, shutting up..


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## mtcn77 (Oct 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fair enough, shutting up..


Don't be. I think this debate is a fresh perspective on forum discussions as far as forum discussions go.
I have never been in a finer discussion with mutual understanding in all involved individuals. Usually it is an all flaming contest without tolerance or reservations, so it is good seeing it going like a class action so far.


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## Jetster (Oct 27, 2021)

But seriously I'm excited about this thing. It finds dust I didn't know I had


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## Mussels (Oct 27, 2021)

Jetster said:


> But seriously I'm excited about this thing. It finds dust I didn't know I had


I got myself an LG A9T, it wont move on its own but its sure good at vacuuming all the dust out of my PC's

The gaming PC with the side and front panels off out of laziness, gathered far, far less dust than the negative pressure server... that poor thing just gets choked every week. i need faster intake fans, or slower exhausts...


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## maxfly (Oct 27, 2021)

Sorry Jetster, i assumed vacuuming ones home was taken for granted! Just teasin ya ;P
But since we're on the subject, I've got a pair(one upstairs, one down)of those uber powerful, fancy, self filtering vacuums that are great for keeping the dust down in our 100yo home. I still run an air purifier in my office 24/7 with excellent results. I may have to clean the filters in my rigs every 3-4 months. I also keep the door closed and forbid any of our hairy family members access unless I'm in there with them.

Positive, negative...like most pc related debates, i honestly dont care enough one way or the other what people choose to do with their rigs to keep them cool and dust free. It just isn't a big deal no matter how you slice it. If your way works for you...
JUST 
DO 
YOU
My contribution to the debate? I generally go positive with high static pressure inlets and high cfm out but it depends on the case im using for the specific build. The exception is my main water-cooled rig. I run high static pressure fans on all my rads and the rear exhaust with varied curves for each.
I usually follow the age old mantra of bottom, front and side inlets, top and back outlets but again it depends. Being that there are so many different cases and configurations, not to mention client requests. One rig may be positive while the next may not.


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## Totally (Oct 27, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Here's mine, not sure if it's positive or negative. apart from the psu, fans are are you see.



My flow is setrup similar and I just realized it's absolutely terrible a couple weeks ago. Warm air is feeding into the top radiator. Haven't had time to really deal with it but did a quick and dirty test by taking the side panel off and saw idle loop temps drop by 5-7c. I thinking of making the top rad into an intake with a single rear actively exhausting.



Andy Shiekh said:


> That is where the speed comes in; slow air cannot carry as much dust as fast.


False, slow air carries just as much dust as fast air. Dust just settles quicker in slow air than it does in fast moving air.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 27, 2021)

Totally said:


> My flow is setrup similar and I just realized it's absolutely terrible a couple weeks ago. Warm air is feeding into the top radiator. Haven't had time to really deal with it but did a quick and dirty test by taking the side panel off and saw idle loop temps drop by 5-7c. I thinking of making the top rad into an intake with a single rear actively exhausting.



Mine is flat, the radiators in the pic are 240 left and 280 right, with the 2x140mm fans at the front. rads are in and 2x140mm are out, the window is the top of the case


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## mtcn77 (Oct 27, 2021)

Totally said:


> False, slow air carries just as much dust as fast air. Dust just settles quicker in slow air


Hi, I want to disagree. Hot and cold air has different carrying capacities, just as hot water fizzles out dissolved gases faster. The question is withholding a change in dust precipitation by maintaining stable air speed and temperature within the case. I know how ostentious that sounds, since air heats up by its cooling action. The question is keeping it steady by reserving "overstock airflow capacity". The same as water coolers, you know: we can downsize our loop until the heat carrier fluid hits its peak temperature, yet it won't perform its best there. It is like maintaining supersonic flight without afterburners, or keeping laminar flow and not turbulent by heating air too much and introducing too much turbulence a.k.a. reynolds number. Trying to achieve bose einstein condensate like 'viscous' frictionless capillary action out of "random air particles" takes attention to detail like absolute zero superconduction does.


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## freeagent (Oct 27, 2021)

I am down to 2 intakes, 1 exhaust.., 1 CPU fan.. still positive pressure  

I did have 5 in 2 out at one point in this case.. a bit overkill.. Still have about 320CFM in and about 110 out.., and about 130 on the cooler.

Its quiet.. until its not.. I would say its fairly effective..


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## Totally (Oct 28, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Hi, I want to disagree. Hot and cold air has different carrying capacities, just as hot water fizzles out dissolved gases faster. The question is withholding a change in dust precipitation by maintaining stable air speed and temperature within the case. I know how ostentious that sounds, since air heats up by its cooling action. The question is keeping it steady by reserving "overstock airflow capacity". The same as water coolers, you know: we can downsize our loop until the heat carrier fluid hits its peak temperature, yet it won't perform its best there. It is like maintaining supersonic flight without afterburners, or keeping laminar flow and not turbulent by heating air too much and introducing too much turbulence a.k.a. reynolds number. Trying to achieve bose einstein condensate like 'viscous' frictionless capillary action out of "random air particles" takes attention to detail like absolute zero superconduction does.



How are you disagreeing with me exactly? Air Temp isn't air speed and unlike air temp the speed at which air moves does not affect it's density. So you just said a whole lot of nothing for no reason.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 28, 2021)

Totally said:


> the speed at which air moves does not affect it's density.


What makes you so sure this isn't how planes fly?


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 28, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> What makes you so sure this isn't how planes fly?



The way planes fly is to do with  pressure, higher below pushes wing up/or is it lower above sucks it up. I suppose that is related to density, more speed means more pressure.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 28, 2021)

Tigger said:


> more speed means more pressure.


Not unless you live in Australia, or something...


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## Totally (Oct 28, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> What makes you so sure this isn't how planes fly?


A phenomenon called lift that results due to a difference in pressure, nothing/much to due with air saturation/capacity.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Don't use a filter on your top exhaust vents, then you will not need to worry about cleaning it and you won't have any air flow resistance out the top..
> 
> 
> Wait, did I miss something? I'm not seeing any hostilities going on.
> ...


Filters on exhaust make no sense


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## mtcn77 (Oct 28, 2021)

Totally said:


> A phenomenon called lift that results due to a difference in pressure, nothing/much to due with air saturation/capacity.


Lift is not a discrete phenomenon since you haven't heard of bernoulli and the paper that lifted when blown over. Sweet.

Some people have really coined the phrase 'post-truth'.


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## 95Viper (Oct 28, 2021)

Let's stay on topic, please.
And, keep F.U.D. to a minimum.
Also, if you think there is a problem... report it and do not contribute to it.


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## FireFox (Oct 28, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Filters on exhaust make no sense


If doesn't makes sense if you don't own a Corsair 1000D, if you do then things are different.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 28, 2021)

FireFox said:


> If doesn't makes sense if you don't own a Corsair 1000D, if you do then things are different.


Why?


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## ThrashZone (Oct 28, 2021)

FireFox said:


> If doesn't makes sense if you don't own a Corsair 1000D, if you do then things are different.


Hi,
Not able to remove looks like


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## FireFox (Oct 28, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Not able to remove looks like
> View attachment 222782



Exactly.


lexluthermiester said:


> Why?











						Negative or positive pressure? Does it matter?
					

@claes  I have a question for you. Let's say i have 3 top fans exhaust ( push) and then i add another 3 and make it 6 push-pull, are those top fans still counted as 3 exhaust or 6 exhaust?




					www.techpowerup.com


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## ThrashZone (Oct 28, 2021)

Hi,
Should say not easily removable/ reinstall


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## freeagent (Oct 28, 2021)

That’s pretty neat.. I have never seen fans that can slide out on a drawer type system.. sweet!

Betcha can’t stand on it though..


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## Komshija (Oct 28, 2021)

Positive pressure should be better but the dust will anyway get inside, regardless if positive or negative pressure.


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## ThrashZone (Oct 28, 2021)

freeagent said:


> That’s pretty neat.. I have never seen fans that can slide out on a drawer type system.. sweet!
> 
> Betcha can’t stand on it though..


Hi,
Can be more of a pain seeing you'd usually have to disconnect all the fans before pulling the trays out.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 28, 2021)

maybe some fan manufacturer needs to make fans with pins connections, the leads stay connected, fans can be removed to clean or change without disturbing the wiring. I would find it very useful


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## skizzo (Oct 28, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Can be more of a pain seeing you'd usually have to disconnect all the fans before pulling the trays out.


not sure if it was the same case but I recall a jayztwocents video where he had a case with such a feature. it also was highlighting some new fans from someone I forget....but their fans could be daisy chained rather than each fan needing to go directly to a header or to a splitter cable going to said header(s). the point being if all the fans are daisy chained for their power and RGB then you only would have to unplug the one cable going to the header and then slide them all out in one swoop. So there is some good value you there, but need to invest in the right type of fans to make the best use of it in my opinion


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## ThrashZone (Oct 28, 2021)

skizzo said:


> not sure if it was the same case but I recall a jayztwocents video where he had a case with such a feature. it also was highlighting some new fans from someone I forget....but their fans could be daisy chained rather than each fan needing to go directly to a header or to a splitter cable going to said header(s). the point being if all the fans are daisy chained for their power and RGB then you only would have to unplug the one cable going to the header and then slide them all out in one swoop. So there is some good value you there, but need to invest in the right type of fans to make the best use of it in my opinion


Hi,
Yeah I use a controller for the majority of fans 
I give the mother board two fans a cpu and cpu optional and that's it.


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## maxfly (Oct 28, 2021)

Lian Li uni fans


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## Mussels (Oct 28, 2021)

freeagent said:


> That’s pretty neat.. I have never seen fans that can slide out on a drawer type system.. sweet!
> 
> Betcha can’t stand on it though..


It's a lot more common on larger systems made for AIOs and/or custom water

My older fractal R6 has similar at the top, although its screwed in and lifts up, vs sliding iirc


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## tabascosauz (Oct 28, 2021)

Tigger said:


> maybe some fan manufacturer needs to make fans with pins connections, the leads stay connected, fans can be removed to clean or change without disturbing the wiring. I would find it very useful



some already kinda do this, iirc most of the Chromax fans have their leads terminate very close to the fan (like half an inch of length), so you need to use the included extension to get anywhere close to the board. Disconnect the extension and you can remove the fan without disturbing anything else.


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## kapone32 (Oct 29, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> All the more reason to worry about dust.
> 
> Early PCs had the power supply blow into the case; modern PCs have it blow out.
> 
> I was wondering about a sealed PC case with fans blowing air around internally and the case itself a giant heatsink.


Hi you mean 2005


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## Ibizadr (Oct 29, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I shared some videos in case someone is new to the topic and wants to know what's going on. What's so lol about that?
> 
> 
> That's good advice, but again...
> ...


Put your aio on front with a push configuration use your 2 fans on top as exhaust test and tell us if you got improvement


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## freeagent (Oct 29, 2021)

I would just keep the tops as intake too. Keeps the ram and vrm nice and cool. Chances are your exhaust isn't good enough to get all that hot GPU and system air out quickly, so might as well get as much cool air in as you can. As long as you have vents and a fan at the back you should be ok.


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## AusWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

Ibizadr said:


> Put your aio on front with a push configuration use your 2 fans on top as exhaust test and tell us if you got improvement


I've tried - it's not good (at least with my config). The GPU sucks in hot air exhausted by the rad, no matter how hard the top fans work.



freeagent said:


> I would just keep the tops as intake too. Keeps the ram and vrm nice and cool. Chances are your exhaust isn't good enough to get all that hot GPU and system air out quickly, so might as well get as much cool air in as you can. As long as you have vents and a fan at the back you should be ok.


No fan mount on the back of my case unfortunately, so I need the top exhaust if I don't want all the hot air to be trapped inside. 

Otherwise, I could do a top intake / front exhaust config, but that would work against the GPU fans (and against convection).


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## claes (Oct 29, 2021)

Not guaranteeing results, but if you have all fans as intake the hot air will be pushed out of the back by force.

An easy way to shave a few degrees off of GPU temperatures is to remove the PCI brackets.


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## AusWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

claes said:


> Not guaranteeing results, but if you have all fans as intake the hot air will be pushed out of the back by force.
> 
> An easy way to shave a few degrees off of GPU temperatures is to remove the PCI brackets.


I've got these vented brackets, but I guess removing them might improve things a bit further:





I'm sure using all fans as intake would create some pressure to push hot air out of the case, I'm just not sure about 1. GPU temps, as GPU coolers are designed to exhaust hot air into the case, 2. potential hot spots, as exhaust airflow is not directed anywhere. I guess some testing might prove interesting.


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## Mussels (Oct 29, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I've got these vented brackets, but I guess removing them might improve things a bit further:
> 
> View attachment 222865
> 
> I'm sure using all fans as intake would create some pressure to push hot air out of the case, I'm just not sure about 1. GPU temps, as GPU coolers are designed to exhaust hot air into the case, 2. potential hot spots, as exhaust airflow is not directed anywhere. I guess some testing might prove interesting.


A lot of GPU Coolers are actually designed with the idea of positive case pressure, and vent out the integrated slot covers
('But that works for negative, too!' says the one person who has to argue... yeah. but you dont see a dust filter there do you? its meant for exhaust)




(


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## AusWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> A lot of GPU Coolers are actually designed with the idea of positive case pressure, and vent out the integrated slot covers
> ('But that works for negative, too!' says the one person who has to argue... yeah. but you dont see a dust filter there do you? its meant for exhaust)
> 
> View attachment 222869
> (


Hm, you've got a point... except that Gigabyte card that you posted has its cooling fins arranged parallel with the back panel, directing airflow right into your case - same as my EVGA 2070.


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