# Intel Core i7-4770K Haswell



## FireKillerGR (Jun 1, 2013)

In this review we compare the latest top Haswell processor Core i7-4770K against two unlocked Ivy Bridge CPUs. We test synthetic performance, real-life computing performance and gaming.

*Show full review*


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 1, 2013)

Interesting. Doesn't seem to be much better benchmark-wise, but at least the temperature problem appears to be fixed compared to Ivy Bridge. I'll be buying a chip and board to replace my home desktop (3770K + Z77 Extreme6), which will be used at work for distributed computing.


----------



## KainXS (Jun 1, 2013)

is that the same stock cooler as the 3770k  -_-


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 1, 2013)

Yeap. Only difference may be the fan. But still I think it was Delta like this one


----------



## DRDNA (Jun 1, 2013)

I guess I had my hopes set too high as I am disappointed.


----------



## dj-electric (Jun 1, 2013)

With my 4770K ES i could get the 4500Mhz at about 1.160-1.180V witch seems decent. Hope's not lost


----------



## buildzoid (Jun 1, 2013)

Uh 1.5V for 5Ghz on Clarkdale seems a bit low 
also doesn't it have an unlocked multiplier so you could've tested 37x120 to get near to 4.5Ghz


----------



## LagunaX (Jun 1, 2013)

Actually if you get to 4.5-4.6ghz as seen in other reviews, then temperature is actually 5-10c worse than Ivy due to the integrated voltage regulator.


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 1, 2013)

Yeap tried any way to get even 4.4 with less than 1.3V... no way :/
Any possible way,from 44x100 to 35x126.


----------



## dj-electric (Jun 1, 2013)

You just got a shitty sample man... Like... A really shitty one


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Jun 1, 2013)

Difference Retail vs ES

notice alot of ES chips in reviews do much better than Retail samples so far......


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 1, 2013)

The bad thing is that it is 100% retail :/


----------



## Aquinus (Jun 1, 2013)

Typo on page 6. Good review so far. 



> Hexus PiFast is a single-threaded Pi calculator, which makes Hyper-Threading useless, but Haswell even outperformed Ivy *Bride* here.



And again on page 10.



> •Lower possible overclock in comparison to Ivy *Bride* series



The Ivy Bride?!


----------



## dj-electric (Jun 1, 2013)

Seems like early retail's a roulette. People might wanna wait a bit for more stable samples.


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Jun 1, 2013)

So better than the 0.4% percent performance increase that was expected, but that doesn't do anything good for you if the overclock is worse...


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 1, 2013)

I'm the only one here disappointed with the fact that Intel once again went with TIM instead of soldering?

The costs are actually that high to opt for some crappy thermal paste instead of solder?


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Jun 1, 2013)

Oh well, its luck of the draw 

my 2500k was a bad clocker i remember everyone saying no no there awesome blah blah, but the chip did 4.3 100% stable and only did 4.4 99% stable.

Still chips not bad I guess just a IGP upgrade and some minor improvements. As usual intel wastes time on the IGP on a $300 chip where most systems will have a dedicated GPU anyway. These new intel IGPs need to be pushed into the I3 series, where they make far better bang for buck.   

Oh well Its not all bad people will still get lucky time to time and get amazing Chips seen a couple that hit 4.8ghz so 4.2 to 4.8 is a 600mhz range thus far.


----------



## Aquinus (Jun 1, 2013)

PatoRodrigues said:


> I'm the only one here disappointed with the fact that Intel once again went with TIM instead of soldering?



No, you're not. I was asking myself the same question.


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 1, 2013)

And what's going on with that integrated voltage regulator????

Getting lucky with 4.6~4.7GHz? Are you serious, Intel?


----------



## BorisDG (Jun 1, 2013)

Why is everyone is whining? Most of you already have Sandy or Ivy ... just pass it and wait for the real deal - 14nm Broadwell or just Skylake.  Intel just can't offer interesting stuff every year now. Their CPUs are like NFS series by EA.


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 1, 2013)

Yeap soldering the IHS would give better results for sure.
@Aquinus lol will correct them asap  thanks

I dont worry, I will find a way to buy one which will be better ^^


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 1, 2013)

For those that were waiting for Haswell to finally build their PC's, and want to have some fun with OC: Time to get a IVB or SB-E. I'm saving some more for a 3930K, and calling it a day.


----------



## Aquinus (Jun 1, 2013)

PatoRodrigues said:


> For those that were waiting for Haswell to finally build their PC's, and want to have some fun with OC: Time to get a IVB or SB-E. I'm saving some more for a 3930K, and calling it a day.



I still love my 3820, that's for sure. No regrets here.


----------



## BorisDG (Jun 1, 2013)

PatoRodrigues said:


> Time to get a IVB or SB-E. I'm saving some more for a 3930K, and calling it a day.


Hold little more. Ivy-E is coming later this later, so I think will be better buy.


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 1, 2013)

BorisDG said:


> Hold little more. Ivy-E is coming later this later, so I think will be better buy.



Honestly, i could actually wait. But 3930K prices are going down around here and i want to put my hands on a GTX780 SLI as soon as possible.

We can only hope that i7-4930K will come with the same $600 tag 3930K did.


----------



## BigMack70 (Jun 1, 2013)

I'm disappointed with this release... was hoping for another stud overclocker like Sandy Bridge so I could upgrade from my 4.8 GHz 2600k but with this there's just no point.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 1, 2013)

BigMack70 said:


> I'm disappointed with this release... was hoping for another stud overclocker like Sandy Bridge so I could upgrade from my 4.8 GHz 2600k but with this there's just no point.



my retails both get 4.6 GHz, no problem, haven't tried for more. Silicon variance may be very high with these chips, I have heard some reports of that from board partners.


----------



## BorisDG (Jun 1, 2013)

PatoRodrigues said:


> We can only hope that i7-4930K will come with the same $600 tag 3930K did.



I think they will be in same price tag. I'm aiming into 4930K too, replacing my awesome Gulftown.


----------



## Emperor_Piehead (Jun 2, 2013)

Not as great as I expected. Hopefully when steamroller will come out it will compete with haswell especially if they put on the 20nm fab.


----------



## dj-electric (Jun 2, 2013)

I don't know if i'm lucky or what but... 







Load temps with NH-D14 on 50% fans are about 74C max
If ill post my MSI Z87 GD65 G results i will get shocked faces


----------



## Sir B. Fannybottom (Jun 2, 2013)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> I don't know if i'm lucky or what but...
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/gTzNwyI.png
> 
> Load temps with NH-D14 on 50% fans are about 74C max



is hax


----------



## Emperor_Piehead (Jun 2, 2013)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> I don't know if i'm lucky or what but...
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/gTzNwyI.png
> 
> Load temps with NH-D14 on 50% fans are about 74C max



You might be Tiny Tom Logan with his 4770k @4.9 would hit 100c while stress testing


----------



## sanadanosa (Jun 2, 2013)

Great upgrade for someone who still use core 2 series processors.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 2, 2013)

Pics on page 2 not showing for me, working on other pages.


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 2, 2013)

tigger said:


> pics on page 2 not showing for me, working on other pages.



+1


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 2, 2013)

Will fix them asap I get back to my house 
Sorry for that


----------



## jihadjoe (Jun 2, 2013)

Interesting tidbit over at HardOCP, this bit of info supposedly comes from ASUS:



> From all the feedback that I am getting through motherboard makers about Haswell overclocking, the basic thread at this time in terms of getting "high overclocks" seems to be, "You need to have a good CPU." ASUS has tested a couple hundred Haswell processors at this time and this is ASUS’ specific feedback from that overclock testing.
> 
> 70% of CPUs can clock to 4.5GHz
> 
> ...



Seems they also got sent a "golden sample""


>


----------



## LagunaX (Jun 2, 2013)

jihadjoe said:


> Interesting tidbit over at HardOCP, this bit of info supposedly comes from ASUS:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems they also got sent a "golden sample""



That's a nice 24/7 4.8-4.9ghz daily driver...


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 2, 2013)

I can post 5 GHz+ screenshots too. But it seems that there is a big difference from what you can operate in OS and what's truly stable, as [H] said there. pictures don't tell the full story, they were posting that screenshot to show that they tried AIDA64 testing and it didn't work for them.

He needed 1.475V for 5 GHz stable.



LagunaX said:


> That's a nice 24/7 4.8-4.9ghz daily driver...




Absolutely. 4.9 GHz is a bit high voltage, IMHO, but, maybe with really exceptional cooling...


----------



## BigMack70 (Jun 2, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> He needed 1.475V for 5 GHz stable.





My 2600k doesn't even need that many volts for 5 GHz stable


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 2, 2013)

BigMack70 said:


> My 2600k doesn't even need that many volts for 5 GHz stable



Your 2600k doesn't offer the flexibility or same IPC as Haswell does, but I get what you mean. To me, voltage used doesn't matter...it's the power consumption that matters. And yes, Haswell consumes more...it has the IVR. Which is also why board matters even less for CPU clocking now. Memory clocking, on the other hand...


----------



## razaron (Jun 2, 2013)

It's a good upgrade for people who are on Nehalem's or Phenom 2's. I'm going to wait a week or so to see how it pans out with regards to changing the TIM and OCing before diving in.


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2013)

Patiently waiting for IVB to hit the bargain bin so that I can pick up things for cheaps. This laptop is getting too long in the tooth


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Jun 2, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Patiently waiting for IVB to hit the bargain bin so that I can pick up things for cheaps. This laptop is getting too long in the tooth



Jesus you have been on that laptop this whole time?


----------



## buggalugs (Jun 2, 2013)

The days of big overclocks on mainstream CPUs is over. Its all about power saving and features now......... unfortunately for us.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Jun 2, 2013)

I just got mine this afternoon and I was able to hit 4.7.


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 2, 2013)

Thanks for the review... I was kinda looking forward to Haswell, but by looking at most reviews online the OCing potential is nowhere close to IB, let alone SB... 

I feel disapointed, yes, IPC is higher, but OCing to 5GHz is almost out of the question, unless you're really lucky, what a shame...

So this is the way the enthusiast CPU ends, not with a bang, but a whimper


----------



## hat (Jun 2, 2013)

Wow, so much for the 5GHz on .9v, or the 6.2GHz on 1.2v. I didn't think it was gonna pan out to be true anyways but I was hoping.


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Jun 2, 2013)

I'd say check for ES chips on ebay, but going by reviews even some of those suck. I saw 98c at 4.5 ghz...


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 2, 2013)

TTL reached 5GHz with the Z87-GD65.... He warned about the H100i not coping with it, tho.

Haswell OC = Draw of the luck.


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 2, 2013)

Great review these are perfect for me. Sure it would be nice if it oced more but that's not important to me when you already get good speed. 

I do wish Intel would have soldered the IHS on. I think they are doing it because it would have made the CPU to cool and heatsink companys wouldn't want that... 

The only thing lacking from the review for me is that i would like to see real power figures not just TDP. like how W1zzard does on the GPU reviews.


----------



## Protagonist (Jun 2, 2013)

Over the years I have always upgraded based on motherboard and i still do that, i buy a motherboard that i like which typically serve me longer than CPU.

I don't care much about the CPU not overclocking as much as most people expected. I i always go for the non K or non X coz i normally don't care about OC as long as the CPU performs to what the specs say I'm fine, except when i had a 2500K not for OC but coz of the IGP.

To me new chipset/motherboard carry more weight when i decide to upgrade and the CPU is a no brainier while upgrading to a new motherboard with new socket.

I like to have most features running natively that's why i will go Haswell/8 Series coz i can get thunderbolt which i wanted so much, native USB 3.0 will be 8 ports thanks to Intel and native SATA 6.0 at list 6 ports.

Intel Haswell (i7-4770 & DZ87KLT-75K) this will be more than enough for quite some time.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Jun 2, 2013)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> I'd say check for ES chips on ebay, but going by reviews even some of those suck. I saw 98c at 4.5 ghz...



I hit 4.7 at 75 c


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Jun 2, 2013)

[H]@RD5TUFF said:


> I hit 4.7 at 75 c



Lucky you.


----------



## LagunaX (Jun 2, 2013)

$279 4770k
$199 4670k
$40 off mobo for select 1150 motherboards with Haswell CPU purchase.

Microcenter.

Tempting but I ain't biting until I see some 4.8ghz+ delidded results.


----------



## SonDa5 (Jun 2, 2013)

LagunaX said:


> $279 4770k
> 
> Microcenter.
> 
> Tempting but I ain't biting until I see some 4.8ghz+* delidded results*.




For me the delidded results is where I am putting alot of my hopes in right now.  


I'm also looking at mother board selection.


----------



## Lionheart (Jun 2, 2013)

Was tempted to get new hardware but my i7 920 & i7 970 are still going strong


----------



## ArchStupid (Jun 2, 2013)

Why would you test high-end CPUs with such a relatively weak GPU?
This makes the gaming benchmark utterly useless...


----------



## kid41212003 (Jun 2, 2013)

man, ur name is so true


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 2, 2013)

Booted @4.5 GHz with 1.32v
To make it stable I had to apply around 1.38V just my 2 cents

Also cause many were worried about the temps I need to mention that 3570K was running with 1.275V when 3770K with 1.22V.


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2013)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Jesus you have been on that laptop this whole time?



Not really, I spend most of my time using either a 1156 i7 based computer, or 3770K. This is "mine", even if I don't use it as often. Its snappy enough for regular tasks, and a light game here and there.


----------



## Nordic (Jun 2, 2013)

ArchStupid said:


> Why would you test high-end CPUs with such a relatively weak GPU?
> This makes the gaming benchmark utterly useless...



So the results really show cpu performance, not gpu performance.


----------



## SIGSEGV (Jun 2, 2013)

nice review. thanks
i don't think it's worth 9.5 compared with previous intel gen (ivy).


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 2, 2013)

It was rated with 9.5 due to the performance increase and better/lower temperatures. Would get more if it could overclock higher.


----------



## Frick (Jun 2, 2013)

SIGSEGV said:


> nice review. thanks
> i don't think it's worth 9.5 compared with previous intel gen (ivy).



Don't stare at the score, most stuff score high on this site. It's the one flaw there is.


----------



## Frizz (Jun 2, 2013)

Awesome review and CPU, if only I didn't already have Ivy :'(.


----------



## OneCool (Jun 2, 2013)

Seems to be just a waste of space to put a IGP in these chips.


Now in the motherboard bios you can disable the IGP on these right?


----------



## Frick (Jun 2, 2013)

OneCool said:


> Seems to be just a waste of space to put a IGP in these chips.



Naah, some people need CPU speed more than GPU speed. IGP's have their place in the world, it's just that they moved from motherboards to CPU's.


----------



## Hayder_Master (Jun 2, 2013)

nice to league of legend in new benchmarks


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 2, 2013)

Hayder_Master said:


> nice to league of legend in new benchmarks



Yeap was thinking about this the last months. It may not be as heavy as other games but being that popular makes it a good addition IMO


----------



## Hayder_Master (Jun 2, 2013)

FireKillerGR said:


> Yeap was thinking about this the last months. It may not be as heavy as other games but being that popular makes it a good addition IMO




yes i sometimes do some self test on this game, many people love it and also they look for lowest priced for a pc can run it well, AMD APU's doing well and i see this CPU too can do the job.
nice review mate really awesome , good work


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jun 2, 2013)

Im trying to debate if its worth me driving to chicago to Microcenter and getting an i7 4770k and a motherboard since its so much cheaper there than Newegg or holding on to my i5 2500k and current motherboard. 

If it is worth the upgrade, how much do you think i could sell my current board and CPU for? (i realize this may be out of place and apologizes if so)


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2013)

OneCool said:


> Seems to be just a waste of space to put a IGP in these chips.
> 
> Now in the motherboard bios you can disable the IGP on these right?



Pretty useful for programs which can take advantage of the parallel cores of the IGP, and watching 1440p videos.


----------



## Yellow&Nerdy? (Jun 2, 2013)

Nice review. I'm assuming that the test is done on a open bench...? Also, what cooler were you using? Seems strange that TTL got such high temps, with a H100i and the CPU-volt set at 1.2, he was hitting 85+ degrees, even though the ambient was only 20 degrees.


----------



## v12dock (Jun 2, 2013)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> Im trying to debate if its worth me driving to chicago to Microcenter and getting an i7 4770k and a motherboard since its so much cheaper there than Newegg or holding on to my i5 2500k and current motherboard.
> 
> If it is worth the upgrade, how much do you think i could sell my current board and CPU for? (i realize this may be out of place and apologizes if so)



I am tempted to drive to Chicago also and upgrading from a x3440 it would be quite the upgrade


----------



## PatoRodrigues (Jun 2, 2013)

TTL reached 5GHz with the Gaming GD65... 

Hoping to see some golden and DELIDDED chips soon... A custom loop should keep 5+GHz clocks under safe temperatures.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 2, 2013)

Thanks for the review. 

Oh man, you probably got the worst sample on the planet. Did you try it in a different mobo, because maxing out at 4.2 sounds almost unreal? It seems like that messing with the BCLK just makes things worse for most of the people, but looks like 45-47x100 is easily doable between 1.2-1.3V with most of the chips out there, ( well, except in your case:/ ).

I like the new cpu btw, especiall the fact that it's a lot faster in rendering (more than 20% in mental ray for example; probably because the "slower" L3 cache doesn't really affect rendering applications, while the faster architecture delivers more multithreaded computational power). 

I know that you need to spend your money on a good GPU nowadays, but I will get a 4770k for sure.


----------



## ArchStupid (Jun 2, 2013)

james888 said:


> So the results really show cpu performance, not gpu performance.



Unfortunatly it doesn't work that way. If the GPU is a bottleneck for the system then upgrading he CPU will have next to no effect on performance in games (in most games at least). The higher the resolution the more evident this is because higher resolution alone mostly just increases the load on the GPU.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 2, 2013)

ArchStupid said:


> Unfortunatly it doesn't work that way. If the GPU is a bottleneck for the system then upgrading he CPU will have next to no effect on performance in games (in most games at least). The higher the resolution the more evident this is because higher resolution alone mostly just increases the load on the GPU.



Let me feed you a little bit 

There are about ~20 games out there where CPU matters in 1080p or above, and the rest of the games are all GPU bond/limited (means: you get 1-5fps difference with all kind of CPUs). And even half of those ~20 games are so old (like Far Cry2 for example) that you already get 60+fps with an i3 sandy, so you really need to dig around to get some CPU bond games where switching to Haswell would actually matter. 

So *no*, this test doesn't really need a dedicated GPU section imo.

(Well, things could change when the new PS4-Xbox1 ports will arrive, but lets not jump into conclusions about things we don't have actual test data)


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jun 2, 2013)

v12dock said:


> I am tempted to drive to Chicago also and upgrading from a x3440 it would be quite the upgrade



Indeed that would be. Still highly debating it. Id get back into crunching if i had an i7. Then again, my H60 prob wouldnt be supported by the 1150 board.


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 2, 2013)

BorisDG said:


> Hold little more. Ivy-E is coming later this later, so I think will be better buy.



??? They will be $500+ except if they make the 3820 comparable.


----------



## suraswami (Jun 2, 2013)

not sure if anybody already asked in the last 4 pages, is there power consumption improvements?


----------



## v12dock (Jun 2, 2013)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> Indeed that would be. Still highly debating it. Id get back into crunching if i had an i7. Then again, my H60 prob wouldnt be supported by the 1150 board.



I am concerned my noctua nh-d14 will not fit, although if I can find the 1150 mounting specs I will just make my own bracket


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 2, 2013)

v12dock said:


> I am concerned my noctua nh-d14 will not fit, although if I can find the 1150 mounting specs I will just make my own bracket



mountings are the same as 1156/1155. No need to worry at all. 


Plus, it's Noctua. If there was, they'd offer replacement brackets, for free. They always do.


----------



## PopcornMachine (Jun 2, 2013)

Two major releases this week.

A re-branded GTX 680, and CPU not all that different than Ivy Bridge.

I could say "welcome to last year", but instead I'll just say "meh".

Nothing at all to get excited about.


----------



## fullinfusion (Jun 2, 2013)

Ib here I come!


----------



## NC37 (Jun 3, 2013)

Well, Intel is still behind APUs on graphics. Some of the early previews made it seem like they had caught up but after seeing this and others...ehhh. Intel graphics are still crap, the world is safe for now!


----------



## Yellow&Nerdy? (Jun 3, 2013)

NC37 said:


> Well, Intel is still behind APUs on graphics. Some of the early previews made it seem like they had caught up but after seeing this and others...ehhh. Intel graphics are still crap, the world is safe for now!



Actually, you can't really say that. Intel didn't put the fastest IGP's in these top-end desktop CPU's, the Intel Integrated Graphics 5000 is only going in low-end CPU's as well as mobile CPU's, which makes sense. For all I care, they should disable the IGP on the K-series processors.


----------



## Frick (Jun 3, 2013)

Yellow&Nerdy? said:


> Actually, you can't really say that. Intel didn't put the fastest IGP's in these top-end desktop CPU's, the Intel Integrated Graphics 5000 is only going in low-end CPU's as well as mobile CPU's, which makes sense. For all I care, they should disable the IGP on the K-series processors.



The "iris" gpu is in high end cpu's actually. And that beats Trinity.


----------



## NeoXF (Jun 3, 2013)

9.5 for this piece of crap!? Really now? April's Fool was 2 months ago guys... I can't even begin to enumarate all the wrong in this review...

In conclusion, all credibility for this website, gone.


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 3, 2013)

I really dont think that this piece of crap has any negative points except the overclocking results. Which may be a result of a bad cpu.
You CANNOT judge a whole series of "craps" (as you said) because one didnt achive the expected when it comes to the overclocking results...

Trying to be objective though you cant buy anything better for those money, thats for sure.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jun 3, 2013)

This isn't much different than ivb or sb, they should of made it 1155 instead of 1150, Intels being tools and personally this cpu deserves a 10 pt reduction for not being any different that past parts.


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 3, 2013)

Dont want to start a disagreement 
But I really dont find it that bad having a cpu which performs better on most benchmarks with lower temperatures than the previous series. 

Anyway as I said it doesnt worth an upgrade from ivy to haswell but it does if the person comes from a series like sandy or from an older one.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm building a new machine in a month, so I will be building Haswell, may as well as it's a new build and I'm using a athlon64 3200+


----------



## V3ctor (Jun 3, 2013)

I sold my 2600k 3 months ago, so I have to buy this new 4770k...

Just hope I'll get at least 4.6Ghz... Without improving my cooling in my SS FT02.

Like FireKillerGR said (i think!), we had great overclockers (SB and IB to some extent), and we were spoiled... Inte'ls goal now is efficiency and the enthusiast guys are left in the dust...

I guess that Intel is puting the cheap TIM in the cpu's do we don't overclock them like hell, maybe they are extremely voltage sensitive. And they could only limit the OC by "adding" heat to the equation...


Anyway, later this evening I'll be playing with my 4770k, hoping it's a good bin... if not... I'll change it when the new tick appears (14nm I think), maybe then we'll see some Haswell power...


----------



## Yellow&Nerdy? (Jun 3, 2013)

FireKillerGR said:


> Dont want to start a disagreement
> But I really dont find it that bad having a cpu which performs better on most benchmarks with lower temperatures than the previous series.
> 
> Anyway as I said it doesnt worth an upgrade from ivy to haswell but it does if the person comes from a series like sandy or from an older one.



Hey Fire, mind if I as a couple of questions about your cooling setup and the temps you got? I couldn't seem to find the info in the review, and it would help me in deciding what CPU-cooler I should pair with a Haswell. What cooling solution do you use, and was the test done on a test bench?


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 3, 2013)

oh sorry 
I used the Prolimatech Megahalems with a Sunon (110Cfm) @7V to be quite.
Tim is for sure better than the previous series. I tried 4.4GHz with 1.35 yesterday got 76C 



V3ctor said:


> I sold my 2600k 3 months ago, so I have to buy this new 4770k...
> 
> Just hope I'll get at least 4.6Ghz... Without improving my cooling in my SS FT02.
> 
> ...



TIM seems to be better than the one used on Ivy series. So, it isnt matter of temperatures, at least based on monitoring.


----------



## V3ctor (Jun 3, 2013)

If its not TIM, then it's the new architecture... its bad to OC... lets see if AMD can at least come close to the performance of SB.


----------



## Scrizz (Jun 3, 2013)

kid41212003 said:


> man, ur name is so true



lol


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 3, 2013)

Like has been already said some were, SKT1150 is new so it kinda pays to be on new chip/skt/chipset. It seems yet another INTEL socket is destined for the bin of history, 775, and 1156 are history, how long has 1155 got, it's inevitable now I guess. 

I'm looking forward to playing with Z87, plus the boards are pretty cheap in the uk, £105 for a Asrock Z87 Pro 3, and £150 for a Intel Core i5-4430, not bad and I CBA with overclocking no more 

Boards start at £90 and CPU's at £150 so at least prices are good, no reason to buy 1155 + IVY no more imo.


----------



## Yellow&Nerdy? (Jun 3, 2013)

tigger said:


> Like has been already said some were, SKT1150 is new so it kinda pays to be on new chip/skt/chipset. It seems yet another INTEL socket is destined for the bin of history, 775, and 1156 are history, how long has 1155 got, it's inevitable now I guess.
> 
> I'm looking forward to playing with Z87, plus the boards are pretty cheap in the uk, £105 for a Asrock Z87 Pro 3, and £150 for a Intel Core i5-4430, not bad and I CBA with overclocking no more
> 
> Boards start at £90 and CPU's at £150 so at least prices are good, no reason to buy 1155 + IVY no more imo.



Some of the boards seem a bit expensive though. E.g. the Asrock Z77-Extreme4 is only 115€, while the new Asrock Z87-Extreme4 is 185€. But MSI have some nice boards that aren't too expensive. Asus-boards are just so ugly, that I can't make myself buy one. Gigabyte boards are a bit costly too, the Z87X-UD3, which used to be lower-end, now costs 170€.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 3, 2013)

eidairaman1 said:


> This isn't much different than ivb or sb, they should of made it 1155 instead of 1150, Intels being tools and personally this cpu deserves a 10 pt reduction for not being any different that past parts.



- New power saving states (SOi1-2, C6-7)
- Doubled L2 cache bandwidth 
- Uncore (Independent Ringbus speed is back like how it was with Nehalem)
- New compute instructions (AVX2 inc FMA3, Gather, improved bit-manipulations, etc )
- 11-16% larger architecture buffer sizes
- More security features
- More ALU and execution ports
- TSX
- Faster and better Virtualization
- Not much faster, but a finally scalable GPU architecture (edram, better CS, MJpeg, Collage)
- New better chipset
- etc...

_"not being any different"_ really?


----------



## v12dock (Jun 3, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> mountings are the same as 1156/1155. No need to worry at all.
> 
> 
> Plus, it's Noctua. If there was, they'd offer replacement brackets, for free. They always do.



Oh very good to know  I have a buyer lined up for my old hardware! Haswell here I come! Now I just have to figure out which motherboard I want.


----------



## ZeroFM (Jun 3, 2013)

Use better cooler and use same OC , when test who faster , who better .


----------



## shovenose (Jun 3, 2013)

How much difference would be noticed between an i7 860 and a i7-4770K (at stock clocks).


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 3, 2013)

shovenose said:


> How much difference would be noticed between an i7 860 and a i7-4770K (at stock clocks).



I had i7 870, moved to 2600K, was a great boost. So you'd get an even bigger boost. Most notably when gaming and such, same VGA will get more performance. I cannot quantify an exact percentage, but I want to say maybe 25%, if not more, way more. It'll depend on the app too, of course...


----------



## shovenose (Jun 3, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> I had i7 870, moved to 2600K, was a great boost. So you'd get an even bigger boost. Most notably when gaming and such, same VGA will get more performance. I cannot quantify an exact percentage, but I want to say maybe 25%, if not more, way more. It'll depend on the app too, of course...



Wow, OK. I mean, it's still an i7 so even losing 25% is no biggie. But that is quite a difference. I'll still be bottlenecked by a GTX 550Ti though so I guess GTA IV won't notice


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 3, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Wow, OK. I mean, it's still an i7 so even losing 25% is no biggie. But that is quite a difference. I'll still be bottlenecked by a GTX 550Ti though so I guess GTA IV won't notice



When I got rid of my 2600K's(I had two), I traded them to users that had AMD rigs running stock, and they were pretty amazed by the difference, so I know that the difference I felt wasn't just a placebo thing.

An I7 860 is only 2.8 GHz, with 3.46 GHZ turbo.

The 4770K is 3.5 GHZ, with 3.9 GHz Turbo.

That is about a 20% non-turbo clock increase, and 12% with turbo. Add in IPC gains, and gains from memory bandwidth, and there's some decent performance improvements to be had when moving up from older platforms. The clock speed alone should see a 10% improvement, at stock.

Once you add in power savings, better USB 3.0 and SATA 6 Gb/s drive performance, I think you'll be pretty happy with that upgrade.


----------



## shovenose (Jun 3, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> When I got rid of my 2600K's(I had two), I traded them to users that had AMD rigs running stock, and they were pretty amazed by the difference, so I know that the difference I felt wasn't just a placebo thing.
> 
> An I7 860 is only 2.8 GHz, with 3.46 GHZ turbo.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I'm cluttering up the i7-4770K thread but I'll explain what I'm doing...
I'm building a new secondary PC (currently a Celeron G540 with a GTX295) using some parts I got for cheap off another member here... a really nice Gigabyte motherboard and the i7 860. 
Since I'm upgrading the RAM in my main (AMD FX-8350 computer) I'll use the "old" (well not really but you know what I mean) 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3-1333 RAM from that in the i7. I'm also upgrading the graphics in my main (AMD) computer, from a GTX 550 Ti 2GB to a Radeon HD 7850 2GB. I'm going to put the GTX 550 Ti, along with a second one I just ordered off eBay, into the i7 860 build, for SLI.

Since the GTX 550 Ti isn't particularly great, but it's also not horrible, it should be a balanced build. Would you agree?


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 3, 2013)

shovenose said:


> Wow, OK. I mean, it's still an i7 so even losing 25% is no biggie. But that is quite a difference. I'll still be bottlenecked by a GTX 550Ti though so I guess GTA IV won't notice



You will feel next to nothing with the 550ti imo. Sooner or later you will eventually swap your CPU of course, but (if you want to game) I suggest you spend your money on a better GPU first.


----------



## 3870x2 (Jun 3, 2013)

razaron said:


> It's a good upgrade for people who are on Nehalem's or Phenom 2's. I'm going to wait a week or so to see how it pans out with regards to changing the TIM and OCing before diving in.



Hell, Nehalem is a good upgrade to those on Phenom 2s.


----------



## tacosRcool (Jun 3, 2013)

Not much of an uprgade for me


----------



## silkstone (Jun 3, 2013)

How does the load and idle power compare with the 3770k?


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 3, 2013)

silkstone said:


> How does the load and idle power compare with the 3770k?



Idle is comparable or lower than IVB. Load is a bit higher, due to the iVR, but actual CPU consumption is roughly less. I measure power for board reviews via the 8-pin EPS connector only, while I see some sites reporting full system numbers of ES CPUs that match my retail CPU figures via the 8-pin, and since they did not reach higher overclocks than I did(which a CPU with better power consumption should, based on my own samples), I have to question their results.

I have had three chips, two I still have in my possession, and both are retail.

Review using ES are kinda BS, in my books. I don't have any NDA with Intel, so I could tell you the differences between retail and ES, and they are quite big differences, but I'll leave that up to sites that used ES chips for review. All of TPUs reviews were done with retail chips.


----------



## silkstone (Jun 3, 2013)

Do you think a 450 W PSU (this: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/fullimage.php?image=42969) would be adequate for an overclocked 4770K + overclocked GTX 760?


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 3, 2013)

silkstone said:


> Do you think a 450 W PSU (this: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/fullimage.php?image=42969) would be adequate for an overclocked 4770K + overclocked GTX 760?



I am not sure. The split 12V rail has me a bit worried, honestly. Personally, I won't build a rig with less than 650W with a mid-high-grade GPU, 850W for dual GPU, 1000W for triple, and 1200+ for quad VGA. I also suggest nothing less than a GOLD-rated unit. I use a 860W Platinum-rated unit supplied by Seasonic for my motherboard reviews. That said, I am a bit over-zealous when it comes to PSUs.


----------



## v12dock (Jun 3, 2013)

What cpu cooler was used in the review?


----------



## FireKillerGR (Jun 3, 2013)

v12dock said:


> What cpu cooler was used in the review?



here is the answer 


FireKillerGR said:


> oh sorry
> I used the Prolimatech Megahalems with a Sunon (110Cfm) @7V to be quite.


----------



## Leon2ky (Jun 3, 2013)

Lionheart said:


> Was tempted to get new hardware but my i7 920 & i7 970 are still going strong



Yeah that's the problem I have right now.  Built a Nehalem based machine in 2009 and I still can't justify upgrading...


----------



## Hilux SSRG (Jun 3, 2013)

Leon2ky said:


> Yeah that's the problem I have right now. Built a Nehalem based machine in 2009 and I still can't justify upgrading...



Seems we're all waiting for Intel to create a better [performance rather than power efficient] processor.  It's ok Intel tacked on a 3+ old gpu... huzzah!!


----------



## Tonduluboy (Jun 4, 2013)

I've been using AMD cpu for the past 15 years, my last buy was 5 yrs ago AMD 4 cores 945 BE.

Last night bought these, i'm sure the diff between my current pc with this new speed pc will be like Ferrari vs family car 1.5cc.

i7-4770k - USD337
ASUS  Z87-A LGA 1150
60 GB SDD
1 TB SATA HDD
GTX 670
650W 80 bronze power supply
8GB Kingston 1600Mhz DDR3 RAM
Cooler Master 202 hyper air cooler ( if $$$ avaiable im going to get the corsiar 100i later for overclocking, and use this  cooler master for my older system)

Now waiting 2-3 days for the pc to come Yehaaa...


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 4, 2013)

Tonduluboy said:


> I've been using AMD cpu for the past 15 years, my last buy was 5 yrs ago AMD 4 cores 945 BE.
> 
> Last night bought these, i'm sure the diff between my current pc with this new speed pc will be like Ferrari vs family car 1.5cc.
> 
> ...



Its gonna be more like a cycle to a sr71


----------



## Aquinus (Jun 4, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> That said, I am a bit over-zealous when it comes to PSUs.



...and I can completely understand why. I've seen too many bad PSUs. If you have the money to invest in a nice PSU, you should and Seasonic makes excellent units. The last 2 PSUs I've bought were Seasonic and before that was a Corsair and since I haven't had a problem with all 3.


----------



## Tonduluboy (Jun 4, 2013)

tigger said:


> Its gonna be more like a cycle to a sr71



I went to wiki to find out the meaning of sr71 lol...

The store where i bought run out of 202 and give me free upgrade to 412s. 2 more days for my 4770k to be tested.


----------



## Am* (Jun 6, 2013)

This CPU is far better suited for laptops/tablets etc and not desktops. 

I'm a bit pissed off that they killed PCI support completely with Haswell -- if they're going to kill support for PCI, at least give people enough PCI-E lanes for all their other peripherals first, x16 lanes is a bad joke, they might as well make all of their enthusiast boards mini ITX.


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 6, 2013)

Am* said:


> This CPU is far better suited for laptops/tablets etc and not desktops.
> 
> I'm a bit pissed off that they killed PCI support completely with Haswell -- if they're going to kill support for PCI, at least give people enough PCI-E lanes for all their other peripherals first, x16 lanes is a bad joke, they might as well make all of their enthusiast boards mini ITX.



Yes Haswell is geared towards power efficiency, so laptops and tablets will reap all the benefits while desktop users will wonder what Intel did with their massive engineering team. 

The only PCI device I can think of are soundcards, but there are plenty of PCI-E offerings anyway its a moot point, unless you are going to reuse your old one in which case you are out of luck. As for the x16 lanes, it has been that way for several years, bridge chips have largely mitigated the problems for people who need extra lanes (a very small proportion which should consider 2011 instead).


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 6, 2013)

Well the first few results of deleding haswell is in, up to 18c difference! Can still use the vice technique.


----------



## fullinfusion (Jun 6, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Well the first few results of deleding haswell is in, up to 18c difference! Can still use the vice technique.



I missed that! vice technique?


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 6, 2013)

fullinfusion said:


> I missed that! vice technique?



Yep put the chip in-between a vice clap and give it a nice tap with a hammer comes right off. You can youtube it.

Much safer than a razer blade, especially with the die vrm things. (To tired to remember)


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 6, 2013)

Am* said:


> This CPU is far better suited for laptops/tablets etc and not desktops.
> 
> I'm a bit pissed off that they killed PCI support completely with Haswell -- if they're going to kill support for PCI, at least give people enough PCI-E lanes for all their other peripherals first, x16 lanes is a bad joke, they might as well make all of their enthusiast boards mini ITX.



LGA 115x CPUs have 16 PCIe lanes and the PCH grants up to 8 more PCIe 2.0 x1 links for a total of 24. Almost every 115x board has a PCIe x4 slot fed by the PCH along with additional lanes for USB 3.0, SATA and PCIe to PCI controllers/bridges. 

Native PCI pretty much went away with the 6 series chipsets, and many Z87 boards still have legacy PCI slots provided by an ASMedia ASM1083 chipset.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 6, 2013)

I received my i7-4770K batch code L311B404 Malaysia and ASRock Z87 Extreme6. Can't wait to put them in tonight and test, though I think I might partially tear down my 3770K mATX rig to test this afternoon while stuck at work.


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 6, 2013)

Nice post your OC results. Do you plan on Delidding?


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 6, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Nice post your OC results. Do you plan on Delidding?



Mine is idling at 30 degrees at stock, haven't tried OCing yet, I'm wary of de-liding and voiding my warranty on a brand new CPU, will try and see how much I can OC (4.7GHz seems to be the upper limit before hitting a thermal ceiling and throttling), will let you know how it goes


----------



## drdeathx (Jun 6, 2013)




----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 6, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Nice post your OC results. Do you plan on Delidding?



4.2GHz, 1.17v, 87c loaded. Good luck getting 4.7GHz at 1.375v without delidding. :shadedshu


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 6, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> 4.2GHz, 1.17v, 87c loaded. Good luck getting 4.7GHz at 1.375v without delidding. :shadedshu



And you're using a Tt water 2.0? That's not very encouraging... I'm gonna post my results as soon as I get back home :|

Are you gonna de-lid?


----------



## brandonwh64 (Jun 6, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> 4.2GHz, 1.17v, 87c loaded. Good luck getting 4.7GHz at 1.375v without delidding. :shadedshu



EWWW. I believe I will stick with SB for now


----------



## Aquinus (Jun 6, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> 4.2GHz, 1.17v, 87c loaded. Good luck getting 4.7GHz at 1.375v without delidding. :shadedshu



I suddenly felt a lot better about having a 3820. What are you using for a cooler? Hilbert over at Guru3d ran his at 4.7Ghz. Maybe you just got a "meh" chip?


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 6, 2013)

Aquinus said:


> I suddenly felt a lot better about having a 3820. What are you using for a cooler? Hilbert over at Guru3d ran his at 4.7Ghz. Maybe you just got a "meh" chip?



The problem is, to get 4.4GHz+ you have to go deep into the 1.2v range on these. I could not stop my chip from 124ing at 4.4GHz/1.22v (as far as I went).

I took my frustration out on my work 3770K. I performed surgery on it and nicked the PCB in a few places, but you know what? It still works! All I did was put a line of Arctic MX-4 from my brand new syringe I got today, plopped the IHS on, latched the socket retention mechanism down, put MX-4 on top of the IHS and put my Xigmatek Loki back on. It booted up fine, and now my 82c chip turned into a 65c one, without Collaboratory Liquid Pro, at 4.3GHz/1.2v.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 6, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> 4.4GHz/1.22v (as far as I went).



Did you adjust ring voltage when you clocked the multi up?  set 1.150, 39 multi for ring, THEN clock up CPU.

Also, checking stock voltage in BIOS, just on first boot, can tell you all you need to know about clocking ability, anyway. What was yours?


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm afraid to delid if I get mine, but it does help temps a lot. How was stock temps?

Has anyone had any USB 3.0 sleep problems? And I can't remember was it a CPU or MB issue?


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 7, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> I'm afraid to delid if I get mine, but it does help temps a lot. How was stock temps?
> 
> Has anyone had any USB 3.0 sleep problems? And I can't remember was it a CPU or MB issue?



Temps at stock weren't too bad, which is probably why Intel doesn't give a damn about using terrible paste in their CPUs. Temperatures are pretty much the exact same as IBs, maybe a little higher with the built-in voltage regulation. As far as delidding goes, let's just say my 3770K came out okay and I f**ked up the latest gen one. Word of advice: I would not do it unless you have a disposable $349 on hand to throw away. The extra few hundred MHz really aren't worth losing your warranty, resale value and the humiliation of destroying your not even a half day old processor. If the nicks in the PCB didn't kill it, the possibility of your die cracking by bending the PCB too much will. If done right, however, you may be lucky like my 3770K that now does 4.6GHz with ease in the 1.3v range, when it had the same temps at 4.3GHz/1.18v. I probably still need to get Liquid Pro for it as I have no idea how long this MX-4 will last before degrading under the IHS, and replacing it can be a b**** as the IHS has to be lined up properly or your CPU will instantly overheat.

For those wondering about the whole integrated voltage regulation deal, Intel obviously added that in their chips. If you're wondering why your motherboard still has MOSFETs, chokes and other junk, it's because the board feeds the CPU a single main voltage (user configurable from 1.2-2.3v and then the processor further regulates it from there. Before stupidly destroying my chip, I did play with that a bit and noticed that a voltage under around 1.5v will not POST, and chip package wattage seems to decrease when the voltage is raised. At 1.5v under load it was around ~100w and at around 2.1v it was about 75w. Stock appeared to be 1.8 or 1.9v.

Since some of you may be wondering what will happen now with my Haswell rig, I hope to get a replacement chip soon and I will certainly not be delidding any more chips until they have lost their value. Stupidity and accidents happen, but I could have easily lost the money elsewhere e.g. a water cooling leak killing half my stuff, speeding ticket, etc. and I will come back from this with the experience I had gained today. But for now, at least I have a slightly faster and cooler 3770K that I can still enjoy for the meantime. Lesson learned.


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 7, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Did you adjust ring voltage when you clocked the multi up?  set 1.150, 39 multi for ring, THEN clock up CPU.
> 
> Also, checking stock voltage in BIOS, just on first boot, can tell you all you need to know about clocking ability, anyway. What was yours?



Dave, mine was 1.000V on the first boot, what does it tell you?


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 7, 2013)

15th Warlock said:


> Dave, mine was 1.000V on the first boot, what does it tell you?



Answered in the Z87-GD65 GAMING thread, but I'll put some more info here, too. 1.000V is "good", but not "excellent". Under 1.000V is the CPUs that we really want for high clocks under air, but up to 1.050 V should be good for 4.6 GHz with tweaking. The chip used in my board reviews is 1.040 V.


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 7, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Answered in the Z87-GD65 GAMING thread, but I'll put some more info here, too. 1.000V is "good", but not "excellent". Under 1.000V is the CPUs that we really want for high clocks under air, but up to 1.050 V should be good for 4.6 GHz with tweaking. The chip used in my board reviews is 1.040 V.



Oh one last thing before I go to bed what is your batch # I've been collecting peoples. Thanks cad you know much more than I ever will.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 7, 2013)

I think mine was around 1.00v as well, but my UEFI only reported the external voltage being sent to the CPU. I tried the 4.2GHz preset which set 1.150v and it 124'd so I increased it to 1.17 which was fine. Obviously I have to get another chip though, but my UEFI on my Z87 Extreme6 had quite a few intimidating voltage settings e.g. Digital and Analog I/O voltage offset, cache voltage, etc. I didn't see anything about a Ring multiplier or whatever, must be named differently on mine.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 7, 2013)

Delta6326 said:


> Oh one last thing before I go to bed what is your batch # I've been collecting peoples. Thanks cad you know much more than I ever will.



I have L309B318(board testing, 1.040 V) and L311B405(memory testing, 1.020 V).



Jstn7477 said:


> *cache voltage*, etc. I didn't see anything about a Ring multiplier or whatever, must be named differently on mine.



Might be cache multi since of that label, haven't booted an ASRock Z87 board yet, but soon.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 7, 2013)

There was definitely a cache ratio setting in there, and there are also cache override voltage and cache adaptive voltage settings in there too. If you're curious, they are listed on pp 78-86 here: ftp://174.142.97.10/manual/Z87 Extreme6.pdf

Also, is the "system explorer" with a picture of your motherboard pretty much included with all Z87 motherboards these days? I saw it in mine and remembered seeing it in a review - I think it was your MSI one if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Asuka26x (Jun 7, 2013)

Intels hd4600 is a joke. 
hell yeah amd!!!


----------



## brandonwh64 (Jun 7, 2013)

Asuka26x said:


> Intels hd4600 is a joke.
> hell yeah amd!!!



LOL ok this is a review thread not bash intel/amd thread


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 7, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> I have L309B318(board testing, 1.040 V) and L311B405(memory testing, 1.020 V).
> 
> 
> .



Ok thanks it looks like ones around L310B"488" <- lower better Mala are doing ok getting around 4.6GHz with 1.25v but I've only seen a couple.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 7, 2013)

I guess I'm going to order another one tomorrow, unless the locked 4770 is a better choice. The BCLK straps seem intriguing and it seems like the stock 4770 (if you are able to force all the cores to 39x) would overclock comparatively, would it not? Anyway, time to wait another week and there's no way I am attempting to free it from the IHS either. I will just enjoy it at 4.2GHz or so and reap the IPC benefits with this architecture.



cadaveca said:


> I have L309B318(board testing, 1.040 V) and L311B405(memory testing, 1.020 V).
> 
> 
> 
> Might be cache multi since of that label, haven't booted an ASRock Z87 board yet, but soon.



Seeing as the batch code of the one I had was L311B404, does that mean we had chips that were on the same wafer or something?


----------



## AlienIsGOD (Jun 7, 2013)

I think i want my HTPC to be a Haswell rig, seeing as i already have a SB rig and an IB rig.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 8, 2013)

AlienIsGOD said:


> I think i want my HTPC to be a Haswell rig, seeing as i already have a SB rig and an IB rig.



Might as well, I just buy whatever is out at the moment even if the whole TIM vs. solder issue exists. Supposedly, these should be about 10-20% faster than a 2700K at the same clocks, about 40% more power efficient, and the IGP is almost twice as good. I know everyone wants low temps and 5GHz clocks and whatever, but at least the power consumption decrease and higher per-core performance kind of makes up for it.

Be sure to get a board with the Realtek ALC 1150 if you are using onboard analog sound.


----------



## mandis (Jun 8, 2013)

The 4770K is an amazing chip no doubt but really not much better than the 3770K! So... for those who of us just need a Gaming/ Streaming rig: AMD FX 8350 vs Intel 3570K vs 3770K vs 3820 - Gami...


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 8, 2013)

mandis said:


> The 4770K is an amazing chip no doubt but really not much better than the 3770K! So... for those who of us just need a Gaming/ Streaming rig: AMD FX 8350 vs Intel 3570K vs 3770K vs 3820 - Gami...



We all know AMD has great pricing, but the performance in some applications can be a crap shoot. Take Civilization V for instance, a game that runs notoriously bad on AMD processors: 







I know many people certainly disagree with my support of Intel mainly due to the cost to relative performance of the processors compared to their AMD counterparts, but there are a few reasons why I prefer them nowadays even if they do cost me a few hundred more dollars overall to obtain. The latest 22nm LGA 1155/1150 i7 processors are more energy efficient, tend to have more predictable performance in games, higher single threaded performance which is crucial in CPU-heavy games that use 4 threads or less, and overclocking that doesn't add 150-350w of power consumption just for the CPU (I'm looking at you, FX-81xx) http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/11/06/amd-fx-8350-review/7 . 

Other notable things I like with the Z87 platform are fresh, new motherboards (AM3+ boards seem pretty stale, and most are from 2011), PCIe 3.0 (which AMD's 2011 essentially rebrand of their 800 series chipsets doesn't have, and FM2 doesn't have it either), native USB3 ports (AM3+ boards rely exclusively on 3rd party controllers), a single PCH over legacy NB/SB that AM3+ has and a large focus for better onboard audio solutions aside from Creative SoundCor3D with Z87 that I have not seen with AM3+/FM2 or even most X79 boards. Granted, I could be quite biased with a lot of these points since most people just care about performance to cost ratio above everything, but I think the extra little features do help warrant the price of modern Intel mainstream solutions.

I'm not completely anti-AMD, as their APUs do make fantastic $600 incl. Windows PCs for home/general users, but IMO their performance platform seems dated (X79 certainly is as well to a lesser extent) and for my preferences, Intel LGA 115x delivers. I play a lot of CPU intensive games and at 120Hz so I need every drop of CPU performance I can get to feed my 7970. Having certain games run a good 10-30% slower with an AMD chip doesn't bode well for my usage scenario. AMD does have a really good price point for people who only invest a few hundred dollars in a PC every couple years, but again my computer investments are quite the opposite.


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 8, 2013)

I'm just saddened by the fact that we PC enthusiasts are a dying breed if Intel gets their way and AMD doesn't step up their game.

I mean, don't get me wrong, Haswell _is_ the fastest CPU around when it comes to raw performance, my 4 core 4770K is already faster than my 6 core 3930K in most tasks, even if doesn't OC as much; but the fact that Intel has regressed in terms of OCing potential for the last couple of generations really doesn't bode well for enthusiasts.

It looks like Broadwell is not going to be any better, and the days of socketed CPUs may be over, unless AMD can leverage the advantage of being the chosen architecture for all new consoles and use that as a weapon in the PC front...


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 8, 2013)

15th Warlock said:


> I'm just saddened by the fact that we PC enthusiasts are a dying breed if Intel gets their way and AMD doesn't step up their game.
> 
> I mean, don't get me wrong, Haswell _is_ the fastest CPU around when it comes to raw performance, my 4 core 4770K is already faster than my 6 core 3930K in most tasks, even if doesn't OC as much; but the fact that Intel has regressed in terms of OCing potential for the last couple of generations really doesn't bode well for enthusiasts.
> 
> It looks like Broadwell is not going to be any better, and the days of socketed CPUs may be over, unless AMD can leverage the advantage of being the chosen architecture for all new consoles and use that as a weapon in the PC front...



I certainly agree. Intel, as much as they have nicely performing products, has been playing dirty with the whole TIM under the IHS deal among other things. I wouldn't have to get a new 4770K now if they had used fluxless solder, as I cracked my die when I stupidly delidded mine right away as it was hitting 89c at 4.2GHz/1.17v with just normal distributed computing load. The next one I get will be untouched and I'll just deal with the high temperature readings. If it's equivalent to a 4.5GHz IB or 4.8GHz SB (at 4.2GHz) in many cases, then it isn't worth the trouble for me to get a few hundred extra MHz out of mine.


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 8, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> I certainly agree. Intel, as much as they have nicely performing products, has been playing dirty with the whole TIM under the IHS deal among other things. I wouldn't have to get a new 4770K now if they had used fluxless solder, as I cracked my die when I stupidly delidded mine right away as it was hitting 89c at 4.2GHz/1.17v with just normal distributed computing load. The next one I get will be untouched and I'll just deal with the high temperature readings. If it's equivalent to a 4.5GHz IB or 4.8GHz SB (at 4.2GHz) in many cases, then it isn't worth the trouble for me to get a few hundred extra MHz out of mine.



So sorry to hear about your proc, do you mind if I ask what method you used for deliding it? I wasn't aware that it was such a dangerous procedure.

The temps you were hitting are just insane, in my particular case, i haven't seen such high temps but I use HWMonitor to check the temps, do you think they are being missreported? I also use the monitoring utility that came with my board, and it seems to coincide in the temps reported by HWM.

I really hope you have better luck with you next Haswell, it seems like there're some procs that are better suited for OCing...


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 8, 2013)

15th Warlock said:


> So sorry to hear about your proc, do you mind if I ask what method you used for deliding it? I wasn't aware that it was such a dangerous procedure.
> 
> The temps you were hitting are just insane, in my particular case, i haven't seen such high temps but I use HWMonitor to check the temps, do you think they are being missreported? I also use the monitoring utility that came with my board, and it seems to coincide in the temps reported by HWM.
> 
> I really hope you have better luck with you next Haswell, it seems like there're some procs that are better suited for OCing...



I used the razor blade which is probably the more dangerous method than the hammer/vise/wood method. I had finished my 3770K about an hour before and besides some PCB nicks, it came out great, so I decided to try the Haswell. I started on the side that had no surface traces and got halfway around fine, but I wasn't so gentle with the other half, tried to slightly pry the rest of the IHS off while using the blade which sent too much tension through the PCB and the die hairline cracked at one of the corners and across the short side of the chip. I did do a better job on this chip coincidentally, but when I polished the die I noticed the crack and practically died. If the die were more square instead of a stupidly tall rectangle, I would have probably gotten away fine. Also, Haswell has a row of tiny SMD capacitors on the substrate next to the die now, so even if you delid you'll probably kill the chip with Liquid Pro unless you completely cover the capacitors in epoxy. Anyway, lesson learned, and I hope the people contemplating this hear me out if $349 means a lot to you.


----------



## 15th Warlock (Jun 8, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> I used the razor blade which is probably the more dangerous method than the hammer/vise/wood method. I had finished my 3770K about an hour before and besides some PCB nicks, it came out great, so I decided to try the Haswell. I started on the side that had no surface traces and got halfway around fine, but I wasn't so gentle with the other half, tried to slightly pry the rest of the IHS off while using the blade which sent too much tension through the PCB and the die hairline cracked at one of the corners and across the short side of the chip. I did do a better job on this chip coincidentally, but when I polished the die I noticed the crack and practically died. If the die were more square instead of a stupidly tall rectangle, I would have probably gotten away fine. Also, Haswell has a row of tiny SMD capacitors on the substrate next to the die now, so even if you delid you'll probably kill the chip with Liquid Pro unless you completely cover the capacitors in epoxy. Anyway, lesson learned, and I hope the people contemplating this hear me out if $349 means a lot to you.



That's really sad, using the vise method is probably safer, well, probably your next 4770 will have better thermals 

You know, I used coolaboratory's liquid pro in the past, and it has excellent thermal properties, but once I almost killed both an Asus MIVE and a 2600K CPU because of it, I was moving these parts to a new case and was about to remove the H100 cooler from the proc but it was bonded to it, I tried gently twisting it but I stopped when I realized I was using too much torque and would probably rip the whole socket from the board.

I finally decided to remove the CPU along with the heatsink, it was almost as if it had been soldered to the cooper plate, I ended up having to wedge a razor blade between the heatsink and the CPU, and almost snapped the blade before it finally gave, the paste had dried to a solid state and effectively bonded my CPU to the H100.

I looked at the syringe filled with the paste, and it had also dried up completely, it had been sitting safely sealed in a cool drawer and was still in its original package and had its cap tightly closed. 

I believe the gallium eventually vaporized in less than a year and left nothing but whatever base metal is used to create the alloy, I decided not to use it anymore as this thing was really expensive and had all gone to waste in less than a year! I only used it twice and had to throw almost all of it away, it almost killed my board and CPU too! 

I realize it may be much harder to bond the naked silicon on a delided CPU to a heatsink, but that, besides the high risk of even the smallest particle causing a short, makes for a deadly combination...


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 8, 2013)

15th Warlock said:


> That's really sad, using the vise method is probably safer, well, probably your next 4770 will have better thermals
> 
> You know, I used coolaboratory's liquid pro in the past, and it has excellent thermal properties, but once I almost killed both an Asus MIVE and a 2600K CPU because of it, I was moving these parts to a new case and was about to remove the H100 cooler from the proc but it was bonded to it, I tried gently twisting it but I stopped when I realized I was using too much torque and would probably rip the whole socket from the board.
> 
> ...



I hope the next chip is better, unless I have been doing something wrong this whole time, which I doubt. My 2yo 2600K still hums along in the 70c range but sadly it lacks the performance and energy consumption improvements the newer chips have. It would be nice if we were eventually stuck with BGA chips if they can be lidless to make up for the fact that they are permanently attached to your board.


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 9, 2013)

Found this good video talks about how Haswell OCing work's, I found it helpful since I will be going from Core 2 Quad to Haswell.

Sounds like most will get 4.5(1.25-1.31v) and thats about it unless they got good cooling.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 9, 2013)

(I was thinking about starting a new thread, but I just put it here

What do you guys think about the 4770? Did any of you had the chance already to see how far it can be pushed. I know Intel is locked it down like the *i3*s, but still, I'm curious if any of you experimented with the chip. 

I'm asking because I was reading a lot about TSX lately (this article for example), and I kinda like it tbh. 
The i7-3770 was no problem to run at 4.3GHz in p67/z68/z77 boards, but I'm skeptical about the Haswell chip tbh.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 9, 2013)

Ikaruga said:


> (I was thinking about starting a new thread, but I just put it here
> 
> What do you guys think about the 4770? Did any of you had the chance already to see how far it can be pushed. I know Intel is locked it down like the *i3*s, but still, I'm curious if any of you experimented with the chip.
> 
> ...



I'd imagine it should overclock as well as the 4770Ks, but I could be wrong. We now have 125/166/250MHz BCLK straps with Haswell, so setting the BCLK to 125 and the multi to 34 will get you a solid 4250MHz. If you wanted to go all out and force the maximum turbo multiplier, it would do a whopping 4875MHz at 125 BCLK. I'm almost tempted to buy the locked 4770 and just BCLK overclock the darn thing as it's $30 cheaper and has more features unlocked but has a locked multiplier. Would love to see if they OC as well or not.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Ikaruga said:


> (I was thinking about starting a new thread, but I just put it here
> 
> What do you guys think about the 4770? Did any of you had the chance already to see how far it can be pushed. I know Intel is locked it down like the *i3*s, but still, I'm curious if any of you experimented with the chip.
> 
> ...



Haswell design is rated to 154 W max. Chips are sold at speeds rated for a max of 84W so far, so that's so big headroom. I estimate that'll be approximately what 5.0 GHz-capable chips are pulling at high loads, based on what few samples I've had. and what OEMs and users are reporting so far.

The question remains if you can cool it effectively to the point that that 154W threshold can be reached without thermal throttle.

4.3 GHz should be no problem, and I believe is that is the actual target for these chips. Some will go higher, but none should do less. They'll get binned to other chips first.



Jstn7477 said:


> I'd imagine it should overclock as well as the 4770Ks, but I could be wrong. We now have 125/166/250MHz BCLK straps with Haswell, so setting the BCLK to 125 and the multi to 34 will get you a solid 4250MHz. If you wanted to go all out and force the maximum turbo multiplier, it would do a whopping 4875MHz at 125 BCLK. I'm almost tempted to buy the locked 4770 and just BCLK overclock the darn thing as it's $30 cheaper and has more features unlocked but has a locked multiplier. Would love to see if they OC as well or not.



BCLK adjust only on "K" parts. Even the 4-multi boost that was available on past generations is gone.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 9, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> BCLK adjust only on "K" parts.



Oh wow, thank you for the confirmation. 4770K it is (again). Is it just the straps that are unavailable on non-Ks or is the BCLK utterly locked down to 100.0MHz? Sorry if that's a dumb question.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> Oh wow, thank you for the confirmation. 4770K it is (again). Is it just the straps that are unavailable on non-Ks or is the BCLK utterly locked down to 100.0MHz? Sorry if that's a dumb question.



According to "info"(not me, in other words), non-K parts are 100% frequency-locked, and maybe even memory clocks, too. Users that normally buy these chips don't normally use those features anyway, so I see it as a non-issue.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 9, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> According to "info"(not me, in other words), non-K parts are 100% frequency-locked, and maybe even memory clocks, too. Users that normally buy these chips don't normally use those features anyway, so I see it as a non-issue.



Dayum, I'm glad I asked. Glad I didn't buy one and figure out that it was locked down like a pre-built computer, and then I wouldn't be able to return it. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Jstn7477 said:


> Dayum, I'm glad I asked. Glad I didn't buy one and figure out that it was locked down like a pre-built computer, and then I wouldn't be able to return it. Thanks for the heads up.



That's the rumor, coming from Anandtech, I think. Personally, I don't believe anything until I try for myself.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Jun 9, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> That's the rumor, coming from Anandtech, I think. Personally, I don't believe anything until I try for myself.



No worries. Even if it is a rumor, I'll just invest in another 4770K and not worry about the problems I could potentially face whether it be with overclocking or difficulty selling a locked processor later. I'll likely order my replacement processor on Monday and then we can start where we left off with the overclocking stuff.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 9, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Personally, I don't believe anything until I try for myself.



Thank you for the reply. I would personaly believe you (because of your great reviews) if you could share why do you think they will do _"4.3 GHz...no problem"_ ?


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Ikaruga said:


> Thank you for the reply. I would personaly believe you (because of your great reviews) if you could share why do you think they will do _"4.3 GHz...no problem"_ ?



Common reports from OEMS testing retails, similar results from those that have purchased since launch and my own experience. Understanding the architecture goes a long way here, I think. I don't think everyone fully understands that yet. I know I don't, but I got some tasty documents. 

Also, I knew what Haswell was and what they would do months and months ago. Ask W1zz if what I told him 6 months ago didn't turn out to be true. Not that I really knew anything secret...but nothing in this launch should have really been a surprise. What does come as a surprise to some out there is the difference between retail and ES parts. I refuse to offer any info in regards to that subject, but I will point out that it's something being discussed already, although I see/have received conflicting reports of what's really different. As much as people want to add mystery to overclocking, it's just math, fundamentally, so I don't get what the big deal is, really.


----------



## springs113 (Jun 9, 2013)

Hey Dave any time frame on the rest of your mobo reviews...really looking forward to the mpower as that is what I currently have.  

Did you receive that lambo branded oc formula yet?


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 9, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> Common reports from OEMS testing retails, similar results from those that have purchased since launch and my own experience. Understanding the architecture goes a long way here, I think. I don't think everyone fully understands that yet. I know I don't, but I got some tasty documents.
> 
> Also, I knew what Haswell was and what they would do months and months ago. Ask W1zz if what I told him 6 months ago didn't turn out to be true. Not that I really knew anything secret...but nothing in this launch should have really been a surprise. What does come as a surprise to some out there is the difference between retail and ES parts. I refuse to offer any info in regards to that subject, but I will point out that it's something being discussed already, although I see/have received conflicting reports of what's really different. As much as people want to add mystery to overclocking, it's just math, fundamentally, so I don't get what the big deal is, really.



Thanks.

I actually had a few hours and went to test things.

Max multi was x39 (sync all cores)
Max BCLK freq was 105, and anything higher made the system hang right after the post (interesting enough this option was not locked in the bios).

Tested two chips, same results. 4.3Ghz would be enough for me, but I'm not sure about 4.1 tbh. I know it's not much of a difference, but you know how it is, sometimes you only need that extra 2-3 fps for happyness


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Ikaruga said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I actually had a few hours and went to test things.
> 
> ...



BCLK clocking is not the way it should be done. This is still IVB in it's essence, and although there are "straps" available to allow for higher BCLK, there are still HUGE dead-zones. Multi-clocking FTW.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 9, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> BCLK clocking is not the way it should be done. This is still IVB in it's essence, and although there are "straps" available to allow for higher BCLK, there are still HUGE dead-zones. Multi-clocking FTW.



Well, I know but that was the max I could achieve in such a short time, but I doubt it that any of those chips could do 4.3Ghz tbh (with any kind of witchery whatsoever), while 4.3 with any of the 3770 I met was a piece of cake.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 9, 2013)

Ikaruga said:


> Well, I know but that was the max I could achieve in such a short time, but I doubt it that any of those chips could do 4.3Ghz tbh (with any kind of witchery whatsoever), while 4.3 with the any of the 3770 I met was a piece of cake.



If you take a look at the Haswell clubhouse I started last night before going to bed, 4.2 is the lowest clock reported there, @ 1.175V.


So yeah, MOST CPUs will hit 4.3 GHz. SOME won't, but those will be rare. And cooling used is very important.


And I cannot stress this enough.. although there are BCLK options available, they should not be used directly. Using the BCLK dividers and BCLK tweaking is mainly for those playing with memory, and to allow them to get higher memory clocks.


All those screenshots with 3000 MHz+ memory so far...all done with BCLK.


That's why I started the clubhouse. I am working on an OC guide that will help everyone get that 4.3 GHz or more, but there ARE specific ways in which you need to set things in order to truly make that realistic. You'll note that my OCs are far different than what other reviewers are posting, and it's not just because I got retail chips. Personally, I expect 4.6 GHz out of every chip, not 4.3 GHz, but if you follow traditional clocking methods and current guides, yeah, 4.3(or directly, 43x100) should be the average.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 10, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> If you take a look at the Haswell clubhouse I started last night before going to bed, 4.2 is the lowest clock reported there, @ 1.175V.
> 
> 
> So yeah, MOST CPUs will hit 4.3 GHz. SOME won't, but those will be rare. And cooling used is very important.
> ...



- But all those chip in the clubhouse thread are from the K series, it's almost paramount to hit 4.3 with those chip, and you really need to be unlucky to get a K chip which won't reach that clock. I was and I'm still talking about the 4770, not the 4770k. I really like TSX tbh, and I want it :B

- Yes, seem like Haswell OC is not really "sensitive to"/"bond with" memory speed.


----------



## cadaveca (Jun 10, 2013)

AH, my bad. yeah, getting 4.3 GHz out of a normal 4770 is likely impossible. Intel stated that all CPUs other than "K" parts are 100% frequency-locked. 


Sheesh. I totally missed what you were saying there, I apologize.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jun 10, 2013)

cadaveca said:


> AH, my bad. yeah, getting 4.3 GHz out of a normal 4770 is likely impossible. Intel stated that all CPUs other than "K" parts are 100% frequency-locked.
> 
> 
> Sheesh. I totally missed what you were saying there, I apologize.



No worries, only those who do nothing make no mistakes


----------



## Vlada011 (Jul 14, 2013)

I don't see better temps than Ivy. I see 10C higher temps than on IB.
Intel go in very very bad way and I hope, but now I'm not sure any more at least to leave us Extreme Platform capable to OC. 
I mean 3970X 6 Cores OC on 4.8-5.0GHz this martyr can't turn LinX AVX Edition on 4.2GHz.
Some user say I enter in BIOS on 4.5GHz but on 4.6GHz I can't, and AIDA64 Stability.
Before 1-3 years people laugh when think on AIDA64 Stability test, we are encouraged to push 12-24h Prime95 and LinX AVX Edition with last linpack 100 Run.

Than I had stable 5.0GHz+ because I enter in BIOS on less than 1.3500V on 5.1GHz, 
LinX AVX Edition can work days oin 4.8-4.9GHz summer-winter but without thermal throttling and little under 95C. AIDA64 Stability I didn't try that is probably 5.0-5.1 GHz full stable on same temps. I notice throttling chasing once stable 4.9GHz during summer with 1.300V on 102C not with lower clock, but I stop test. HW Info show good Min and Max Clock and Throttling. 

And mine temps are 80C for highest core on 4.5GHz with last Prime95 and LinX AVX Edition.
That is not higher temp than Haswell and Haswell don't work on 65-70C like IB with Turbo Enable (3.9) in LinX AVX Edition and Prime95.
I saw some people even problems on only Turbo with 80-90C, that is not better temps than IB.
Temps and overclocking is far worse from IB than SB>IB, far worse. Only that AVX instruction he work very good. But for that better waiting AVX 3.2.

I'm sorry of people who save money to buy i7 Instead of i5 and wait one really good and promised platform. Communities talk about Haswell after SB show up.
Than Intel start to work on this Project.
They want at least 30% OC for K models. Because they invest in 100$ cooler and in 250-350$ motherboard. 
For at least 30% completely stable.
Without that it's pointless everything if someone have 4-5C better temps on best cooler than on stock because heat transfer. 
And that is not end for 30% OC (about 4.5GHz) on long time you need at least 4.7GHz stable because last stable clock is never good option except for people with lot of money who will sell for 12 months and buy new.

After November 2011 3930K still best options for gamers.
For him worth paying and for H100 and H100i and H220 and Rampage and Sniper and Classified.
This in HTPC with one little Noctua NH-L9i, Turbo Enable and nothing more.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jul 14, 2013)

Vlada011 said:


> I don't see better temps than Ivy. I see 10C higher temps than on IB.
> Intel go in very very bad way and I hope, but now I'm not sure any more at least to leave us Extreme Platform capable to OC.
> I mean 3970X 6 Cores OC on 4.8-5.0GHz this martyr can't turn LinX AVX Edition on 4.2GHz.
> Some user say I enter in BIOS on 4.5GHz but on 4.6GHz I can't, and AIDA64 Stability.
> ...



It's worth mentioning that Sandy Bridge is from Intel Haifa/Israel, while Ivy and Haswell are from the US (Oregon iirc). Different team, different people, different management, different goals, etc... Let's see what the Haifa team can do with Skylake, and only draw a conclusion about Intel after we have it...................... but I have to agree that Intel doesn't seem to care about enthusiast anymore. I guess that the corresponding market segment is so small, they decided it's just not worth to interfere with their business strategy for such a low number of costumers.

About the high temps: Don't forget how incredibly small CPUs Ivy/Haswell are, so the high temps are understandable. You just need adequate (read: very good) cooling if you want to push things beyond their stock settings (which I have absolutely no problem with, since it's just more heat and nothing more in the case of Haswell).

Generally, I think the main "problem" here is that Sandy Bridge was so awesome, it's really hard to make something better in such a short time


----------



## Vlada011 (Jul 14, 2013)

That is same, decision came from same place, nobody can't decide without top and special to make some mistakes in design.
No one can put cheap grace or decide no we go on flux solder except example first circle of 30 people. 
This is architecture design problem and limitation like decision. 
And they didn't explain us after two year why cheap paste is inside. 
I think lose on good paste can't be more than 100.000$ for all CPU.
I mean on so big quantity price drop rapidly and that is nothing for Intel.
Saving money on paste is not only reason. 
In all part of life customer deserve and get answer only enthusiasts and overclocker and gamers don't deserve answer what is behind flux solder and what is behind "cheap" or not cheap paste.
I think Sandy Bridge is more rear occurrence not always guaranteed performance. 
But he is paste and he is PCIe 2.0 and that story is finished, I don't like explanation how I don't get much with PCIe 3.0.
But Haswell is bottom.

If you say Skylake will make in Israel, where they decide to make Haswell E ???
Skylake is first something what worth investment for people with SB and IB. Haswell is downgrade for me.
Not on stock but OC Profil 100% downgrade.
Even what I saw example CINEBENCH result are absolutely same, difference can make better sample of one or other(IB or Haswell).
You can't say he is clearly if you buy 100% 10% stronger, not even 5%. CPU sample could decide not architecture.


----------



## Ikaruga (Jul 14, 2013)

Vlada011 said:


> That is same, decision came from same place, nobody can't decide without top and special to make some mistakes in design.
> No one can put cheap grace or decide no we go on flux solder except example first circle of 30 people.
> This is architecture design problem and limitation like decision.
> And they didn't explain us after two year why cheap paste is inside.
> ...



I think you greatly misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is that different people have different priorities, and that's true inside Intel as well. Certain goals can be achieved several ways, and different engineers take different path to reach it, this doesn't mean that the end product will be different. Haswells using paste are doing their work perfectly on stock speeds, they are cheaper to make and there is no soldiering needed from the management/leadship point of view. The engineers on the project said it's not needed at all for safe , and normal operation, and that's exactly why it's not used. No sane management will spend extra money in mass production if it's not needed. (please don't get me wrong again, I do agree that we enthusiast would need it badly tho, but that's irrelevant apparently )

I also have no idea about Skylake, but that wasn't my point. I was just trying to say that perhaps it will be closer to your enthusiast desire than how Ivy or Haswell are, or maybe it will be even further away. Only time will tell.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 14, 2013)

Maybe they should sell all Haswell k's with a non glued IHS, so you can use it naked, or use paste on the cpu and sit the IHS on it in the socket if you want.


----------



## Vlada011 (Jul 14, 2013)

I didn't saw how Haswell work perfect and on stock speed.
Maybe 3.5GHz but even that is hot for our experience and what we see last years.
What I saw is some samples are on 3.9GHz where close to point of throttling. 
Net is full of people who have 90C on 3.9GHz if they start stability test and now suddenly easy people start to change way of testing. Last linpack and AVX instructions heat Haswell as crazy.
I'm sorry but last 5-6 years when I came home with CPU first week I start Linx, Prime95, OCCT, than go 3DMark Vantage, Fritz Chess, CINEBENCH and comparing and than if one week everything work OK start OC, again same way LinX(AVX Edition necessary in last time)Prime95, OCCCT with AVX Enable, wPrime, X264, CINEBENCH, ycruncher, ....and that I declare OC and save OC Profil usually 200-300MHz than last clock. 
I'm happy now because I have 4.8GHz stable 15h Prime95 and I can 4.5GHz clock for every day, not more....Prime95 is in my experience most required test for Ivy Bridge, harder even than LinX AVX Edition and even temps are 2-3higher and I need 0.0025V more than for LinX only Prime95 Blend test show real temps after 
2-3h example maybe even little more.
Everything on side but when you find volttage  and clock and Prime95 past 12h 2-3 times and every worker without error you know everything is OK.
I think even 6h is enough. Without drop clock, throttling, temps in border and everything pass, you can confirm with other test and save profil.
OK everything can go wrong after some time special with abnormal high clocks, example over 4.5GHz for 24/7 for my taste is to much. That is 30% enough.
But like I sad you must 200MHz more in stability tests because 100% stability. I do like that.
AIDA64, than my CPU is better than SB 2500K if we look that test as stability or SuperPI, or CINEBENCH.  
AIDA64 heat my CPU to 72C on 4.5GHz. 
Prime95 is same temp on stock clock. 
I mean how big is difference between that two test.


----------

