# Pirate Bay Founders Stare At Jailtime as Supreme Court Rejects Appeal



## btarunr (Feb 1, 2012)

Sweden's Supreme Court decided not to grant leave to appeal in the long-running Pirate Bay criminal trial. This translates to the earlier judgement of the Swedish Court of Appeal being upheld. In November 2010, the lower court had found four of the founders of The Pirate Bay, Peter Sunde, Fredrik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm, and Carl Lundström, guilty of criminal copyright infringement. Although Fredrik Neij, Peter Sunde and Carl Lundström all had their prison sentences decreased from the levels ordered at their original 2009 trial, they were ordered to pay increased damages amounting to millions of dollars to the plaintiffs in the entertainment industry.

Peter Sunde, AKA Brokep, faces 8 months in prison. Fredrik Neij, AKA TiAMO, faces 10 months. Businessman Carl Lundström has the lightest sentence of 4 months. All will have to pay their share of a combined 46 million Kronor (US $6.8 million) in damages. In related news, the operators of Pirate Bay changed the domain name of their site from *.org to *.se to prevent seizure by the US Government. 





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## hanzi (Feb 1, 2012)

Oh noes!


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## phanbuey (Feb 1, 2012)

criminal infringement... damn


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## ZoneDymo (Feb 1, 2012)

lulz


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Buh Bye scum bags.


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## Montalva (Feb 1, 2012)

LOL... Gj destroying ppls lifes for money..

Avrage annual salary for swedish ppl - 200.000kr.


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## entropy13 (Feb 1, 2012)

Well, not really.


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## hanzi (Feb 1, 2012)

Pirates in 1st world countries are obvious. They should relocate to Somalia


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## Montalva (Feb 1, 2012)

hanzi said:


> Pirates in 1st world countries are obvious. They should relocate to Somalia



yeah cuz real pirates is not as important..


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 1, 2012)

Stupid rich people just trying to get richer. Bah!

(No offense to any actual real rich people on this forum)


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## virtue (Feb 1, 2012)

> With this said, we hear news from our old admins that they have received a verdict in Sweden. Our 3 friends and blood brothers have been sentenced to prison. This might sound worse than it is. Since no one of them no longer lives in Sweden, they won't go to jail. They are as free today as they were yesterday.


Source TPB


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## NdMk2o1o (Feb 1, 2012)

btarunr said:


> Pirate Bay changed the domain name of their site from *.org to *.se to prevent seizure by the US Government.



The US Government aka the internet police :shadedshu


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

NdMk2o1o said:


> The US Government aka the internet police :shadedshu



Not just the US Government. Your own government has to LET them first. So ether your government is a bunch of pussys OR they are working with the US Government. Take your pick. Blame is equal on both ends.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

The entertainment industry seriously need to cath up with modern technology instead of trying to compete with it. TPB provides access to pirate content no more than google.


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## overclocking101 (Feb 1, 2012)

t's funny tpb has always seemed to stay up, yet megaupload goes down in ten seconds. just dont seem right to me.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

overclocking101 said:


> t's funny tpb has always seemed to stay up, yet megaupload goes down in ten seconds. just dont seem right to me.



TPB doesn't host any content, just provides links


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## overclocking101 (Feb 1, 2012)

direct links which you dont not need to leave the site for. its bullshit. if they didnt want it on the internet they shouldnt have created it.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

overclocking101 said:


> direct links which you dont not need to leave the site for. its bullshit. if they didnt want it on the internet they shouldnt have created it.



Like child porn.......


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## overclocking101 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Like child porn.......



thats completely different completely.


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## horik (Feb 1, 2012)

so we can expect the site to be closed,right?


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## mtosev (Feb 1, 2012)

horik said:


> so we can expect the site to be closed,right?


I don't think TPB is going anywhere


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

and the world hates Amercians today just that litttttle bit more.  One day someone will have the balls to tell them to go **** themselves.


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## Frick (Feb 1, 2012)

Jarman said:


> and the world hates Amercians today just that litttttle bit more.  One day someone will have the balls to tell them to go fuck themselves.



Even if they are found guilty under Swedish law? The US and it's interest groups have pushed, well everyone really a lot, that is true. But it's still swedish law, not US. And when most nations do one thing it's hard to resist doing the same thing (in this case have more laws surrounding the internet), for various of reasons.

EDIT: I do think the punishment is out of proportions, but they are still found guilty.


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

If they are found guilty under Swedish law then fair enough.  Let's just say that they are found innocent under Swedish law, do you think the Americans will just accept that fact and leave it at that?? Or will they spit their dummy out like a child until they get their own way?


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Jarman said:


> If they are found guilty under Swedish law then fair enough.  Let's just say that they are found innocent under Swedish law, do you think the Americans will just accept that fact and leave it at that?? Or will they spit their dummy out like a child until they get their own way?



Wouldnt matter. It will would be the Swedish fault for caving. Like I said hate America all you want. Doesnt change the fact its your own goverment doing it. Not the US.


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## JrRacinFan (Feb 1, 2012)

What law's are TPB breaking exactly? What about these companies who create DVD and Blu Ray burners? They can be taken to court for intent to infringe upon copywritten material.


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't hate America.  I hate the way they feel they need to police the world.  If someone holds a gun to my head and tells me to do something, is it really my fault for doing it?

Whose government is it prosecuting the owners of megaupload again, and trying to force SOPA/PIPA down the throats of the rest of the world?


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## NdMk2o1o (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Not just the US Government. Your own government has to LET them first. So ether your government is a bunch of pussys OR they are working with the US Government. Take your pick. Blame is equal on both ends.



They think they are, regardless of said government agrees to comply that doesn't mean they're equally to blame, it's instigated by the US and their bully tactics and also acting like they can police the world. They need to start at home if you ask me but hey whatever.


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## Solaris17 (Feb 1, 2012)

JrRacinFan said:


> What law's are TPB breaking exactly? What about these companies who create DVD and Blu Ray burners? They can be taken to court for intent to infringe upon copywritten material.



I agree they have evaded for years because they dont actually "host" the files. with that said they have evaded arrest for years. the fact that they have been tried and convicted when they were found innocent before screams creative justice to me.


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## Toadicus (Feb 1, 2012)

*Just file chapter 11(or w/e it is in sweden)*

Bankrupt people dont pay anyone for any thing. Just make sure you move remaining assest out of comany and push them through a few numbered companies to fog their origin. 

The Big Media interests need to learn how they lose no matter who they attack.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Feb 1, 2012)

What happens to the $6.8 million dollars, that's what I'd like to know, its gonna be spent on coke and high class hookers by the music industry execs imo.


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## Horrux (Feb 1, 2012)

I dunno man, I've used TPB for when my dog crunched up my 6-disc Special Edition Baldur's Gate and other stuff that I lost or otherwise destroyed, to get my files.

That's perfectly legal.

It's the users who choose to download things that they don't legally have a right to possess who infringe the law, not those who make a catalog of those who have the files up for sharing.

But of course things got all twisted out of shape and the poor guys have to go to jail and pay huge fines because of that. Goddamn lawmakers.

I don't hate americans or the US personally. It's true, the RIAA and MPAA, who are mostly US based, are behind all the pressure to put these guys in jail. But that could not happen without POLITICIANS. And all because it's almost impossible to go after the end users, so hey, let's ruin these guys' lives.

DAMN ALL POLITICIANS. I SAY BURN THEM ALL. AT THE STAKE.


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## hhumas (Feb 1, 2012)

wtf


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Jarman said:


> I don't hate America.  I hate the way they feel they need to police the world.  If someone holds a gun to my head and tells me to do something, is it really my fault for doing it?
> 
> Whose government is it prosecuting the owners of megaupload again, and trying to force SOPA/PIPA down the throats of the rest of the world?





NdMk2o1o said:


> They think they are, regardless of said government agrees to comply that doesn't mean they're equally to blame, it's instigated by the US and their bully tactics and also acting like they can police the world. They need to start at home if you ask me but hey whatever.



Sounds like you are making excuses for your apathy in your own government. Not Americas fault. Its yours. You let America bully you so you are pussys OR your government is just as guilty. There is no in between. 

I dunno why people dodge their own responsibility so much. You can't go through your whole life blaming the next man. Sometimes you have to put on your big boy pants and take responsibility. Next thing you know people wont take care of thier children because the condom broke and expect the trojan company to raise thier children.


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## Frick (Feb 1, 2012)

Horrux said:


> I dunno man, I've used TPB for when my dog crunched up my 6-disc Special Edition Baldur's Gate and other stuff that I lost or otherwise destroyed, to get my files.
> 
> That's perfectly legal.



No it's not. At least not in Sweden as I understand it. And TPB are about torrents that means you share data as well as download, so I really have no problem with people having problems with it.


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## Yellow&Nerdy? (Feb 1, 2012)

Why don't these guys just join Kopimism and claim this is religious purge. That would make the prosecution process a lot more difficult.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't use torrents and never have, its the "sharing" part I don't like or agree with. If I do need to replace a legit owned disc I prefer direct downloads.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

Holywood was founded on piracy. I really feel nothing for an industry that moved away from New York to adapt to IP law now failing to move itself to adapt to the internet.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> Holywood was founded on piracy. I really feel nothing for an industry that moved away from New York to adapt to IP law now failing to move itself to adapt to the internet.



I wish Vietnam had something worth pirating.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I wish Vietnam had something worth pirating.



I'm not Vietnamese. I just live here.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> I'm not Vietnamese.



I was just going by your location.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I was just going by your location.



I know, but i couldn't help feeling that is was posted as an insult.


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## Solaris17 (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> I know, but i couldn't help feeling that is was posted as an insult.



probably was.


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## NinkobEi (Feb 1, 2012)




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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> I know, but i couldn't help feeling that is was posted as an insult.



No insult. People just tend to pirate Hollywood films or things from America then complain when they get busted. I always thought if their own nation produced something as pirated as Hollywood movies they might change their tune.

No insult. Just would like to see people wear the other shoe once in a while.



Solaris17 said:


> probably was.



Want some gas with that flame?!


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## Toadicus (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Sounds like you are making excuses for your apathy in your own government. Not Americas fault. Its yours. You let America bully you so you are pussys OR your government is just as guilty. There is no in between.
> 
> I dunno why people dodge their own responsibility so much. You can't go through your whole life blaming the next man. Sometimes you have to put on your big boy pants and take responsibility. Next thing you know people wont take care of thier children because the condom broke and expect the trojan company to raise thier children.



You, Sir Sound like a brainwashed idiot who feels he is vastly smarter to all else. 
I find your posts to be childish and blindedly pro-american, at any cost.

I hope you find peace in the belittling of others, just like every other a$$hole who thinks america is still great.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Toadicus said:


> You, Sir Sound like a brainwashed idiot who feels he is vastly smarter to all else.
> I find your posts to be childish and blindedly pro-american, at any cost.
> 
> I hope you find peace in the belittling of others, just like every other a$$hole who thinks america is still great.



I just fire torpedo's of truth. Sorry your ship of fail is so weak it cannot accept the blast of pure knowledge.


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Wouldnt matter. It will would be the Swedish fault for caving. Like I said hate America all you want. Doesnt change the fact its your own goverment doing it. Not the US.



You really think that the US government just sits there and has nothing to do with anything? I think they try to push their own ideas in every single thing in these days.
For example: Standard & Poor's lowering the ratings for the EU just to make the US look better, and of course everyone falls for that BS.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> You really think that the US government just sits there and has nothing to do with anything? I think they try to push their own ideas in every single thing in these days.
> For example: Standard & Poor's lowering the ratings for the EU just to make the US look better, and of course everyone falls for that BS.



So? Blame your own government for being susceptible to Standard & Poor. Come up with your own world reserve. Also FYI we were also lowered so I'm missing your point.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No insult. People just tend to pirate Hollywood films or things from America then complain when they get busted. I always thought if their own nation produced something as pirated as Hollywood movies they might change their tune.
> 
> No insult. Just would like to see people wear the other shoe once in a while.
> 
> ...




Fair enough 

Plenty of stuff is made here and pirated. I'd have to say that locally, at least, Chinese content is far more pirated than Hollywood. I like Hollywood movies, but i much rather British and American TV. If i were able to buy an online package for $20-50 per month to watch every British or American TV show on demand, including past TV shows, i would and the industry would make a lot more off me than it does today. Same goes for netflix, if i could rent a package for a reasonable price, i would (it isn't available here)

EDIt - I'm pretty sure that Chinese and maybe Indian content is pirated to a far greater extent than American


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Plenty of stuff is made here and pirated. I'd have to say that locally, at least, Chinese content is far more pirated than Hollywood. I like Hollywood movies, but i much rather British and American TV. If i were able to buy an online package for $20-50 per month to watch every British or American TV show on demand, including past TV shows, i would and the industry would make a lot more off me than it does today. Same goes for netflix, if i could rent a package for a reasonable price, i would (it isn't available here)



I get what your saying man. I'm glad you didnt take it as an insult. One place I have been wanting to go for years is Nam. My father said its beautiful.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Feb 1, 2012)

Toadicus said:


> You, Sir Sound like a brainwashed idiot who feels he is vastly smarter to all else.
> I find your posts to be childish and blindedly pro-american, at any cost.
> 
> I hope you find peace in the belittling of others, just like every other a$$hole who thinks america is still great.



You are overreacting. And you're also very obviously new here despite the join date. 

And the last statement really wasn't necessary. Though helpful in a sense as it shows how you truly think and feel.


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So? Blame your own government for being susceptible to Standard & Poor. Come up with your own world reserve. Also FYI we were also lowered so I'm missing your point.



The point is that the US is poking everywhere they want and everywhere they see a benefit. And my government can't do anything about those ratings, when media grab it it's out there and creates "panic", and shares fall. If your rating is lowered fine, but why are they doing it to the EU then?
I really can't understand how can anyone defend the US government right now :shadedshu

But anyway I don't want to steer this off topic anymore so I'm done here...


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## Nemesis881 (Feb 1, 2012)

All this nonsense has got to end. The problem isn't that people won't pay for things, the problem is things are TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE. IF ONLY THERE WAS SOMEWAY TO GET CONTENT CHEAPLY AND LEGALLY!!....There are already services out there that provide nearly unlimited content at little to no cost and are proven profit makers...

cough...Steam, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon E-books...cough.


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

Nemesis881 said:


> All this nonsense has got to end. The problem isn't that people won't pay for things, the problem is thing are TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE. There are already services out there that provide nearly unlimited content at little to no cost and are proven profit makers...
> 
> cough...Steam, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon E-books...cough.



And not to mention, some countries can't even access some proper online music stores (iTunes etc.) which only leaves them the option to pirate.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> The point is that the US is poking everywhere they want and everywhere they see a benefit. And my government can't do anything about those ratings, when media grab it it's out there and creates "panic", and shares fall. If your rating is lowered fine, but why are they doing it to the EU then?
> I really can't understand how can anyone defend the US government right now :shadedshu
> 
> But anyway I don't want to steer this off topic anymore so I'm done here...



Its called a world economy. Something that was setup by your government and mine under hundreds of treaties. Its just as much your fault as it is mine. That's why I don't point fingers. We all suck equally.

Oh wait I'm supposed to be brainwashed according Toadicus....so yeah AMERICA ROCKS!


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## Horrux (Feb 1, 2012)

...and most hollywood crap isn't worth paying for, anyway.


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## blibba (Feb 1, 2012)

From TPB blog:

_"2012 is the year of the storm.

The Pirate Bay will reach an age of 9 years. Experiencing raids, espionage and death threats, we're still here. We've been through hell and back and it has made us tougher than ever.

The people running the site has changed during the years. No sane human being would put up with this kind of pressure for 8 years in a row. An insane hobby that takes time from our families, our work (sorry boss) and our studies.

What binds us all together is a strong belief that what we do is good. That it is something we one day can tell our grandchildren about with pride. People from all over the world confirm this. We read testimonials from people in Syria longing for freedom, thanking us for what we provide. We receive more than 100 visits daily from North Korea and we sure know that they need it. If there's something that will bring peace to this world it is the understanding and appreciation of your fellow man. What better way to do that than with this vast library of culture?

With this said, we hear news from our old admins that they have received a verdict in Sweden. Our 3 friends and blood brothers have been sentenced to prison. This might sound worse than it is. *Since no one of them no longer lives in Sweden, they won't go to jail.* They are as free today as they were yesterday.

But what enrages us to our inner core is that the system, the empire, the governments, are still allowed to try to boss you and us around with one law crazier than the other. Do you think they will stop with SOPA/ACTA/PIPA? They will not. Because you won't stop sharing those files. Because we will not stay down. Because no one can turn back time. Together, we are the iron that hardens with each strike.

In this year of the storm, the winners will build windmills and the losers will raise shelters. So flex your muscles, fellow pirates, and give power to us all! Build more sites! More nets! More protocols! Scream louder than ever and take it to the next level!"_

I added the bold text. The English isn't great, but I think the meaning is clear. It is amusing how resilient these guys are.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Horrux said:


> ...and most hollywood crap isn't worth paying for, anyway.



Old stuff was awesome. New stuff........ARRRGGGGG!


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## Horrux (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Old stuff was awesome. New stuff........ARRRGGGGG!



European movies are still fantastic. Ever watched "Cuckoo"?


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## Wrigleyvillain (Feb 1, 2012)

Horrux said:


> ...and most hollywood crap isn't worth paying for, anyway.



Hard to argue with this assessment these days, unfortunately...


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## Deleted member 24505 (Feb 1, 2012)

Horrux said:


> European movies are still fantastic. Ever watched "Cuckoo"?



Or Lock stock and two smoking barrels, fantastic film.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

tigger said:


> Or Lock stock and two smoking barrels, fantastic film.



I enjoyed Snatch.......who doesn't really


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## Solaris17 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No insult. People just tend to pirate Hollywood films or things from America then complain when they get busted. I always thought if their own nation produced something as pirated as Hollywood movies they might change their tune.
> 
> No insult. Just would like to see people wear the other shoe once in a while.
> 
> ...



god you never want to dance anymore. everytime I want to have fun you become harder to instigate this relationship is OVER


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

tigger said:


> Or Lock stock and two smoking barrels, fantastic film.



I watched it at least 15 times


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## R_1 (Feb 1, 2012)

Don Quixote , by Miguel de Cervantes : "Freedom, Sancho, is one of the most precious gifts that heaven has bestowed upon men; no treasures that the earth holds buried or the sea conceals can compare with it; for freedom, as for honour, life may and should be ventured; and on the other hand, captivity is the greatest evil that can fall to the lot of man."
Freedom, people, is the tip of the spear. In this world you are not born free.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Solaris17 said:


> god you never want to dance anymore. everytime I want to have fun you become harder to instigate this relationship is OVER



 I like Silkstone. Can't do that to the man. We clashed in the past but hes respectful so how can you argue with that?


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## erocker (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its called a world economy. Something that was setup by your government and mine under hundreds of treaties. Its just as much your fault as it is mine. That's why I don't point fingers. We all suck equally.
> 
> Oh wait I'm supposed to be brainwashed according Toadicus....so yeah AMERICA ROCKS!



Hopefully we'll all vote for the isolationist Ron Paul, we'll close up shop over our borders, seal up this country in a plastic bag and say goodbye to the rest of the world. Hopefully that will make the rest of the world happy. Hope and change is what we need.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

erocker said:


> Hopefully we'll all vote for the isolationist Ron Paul, we'll close up shop over our borders, seal up this country in a plastic bag and say goodbye to the rest of the world. Hopefully that will make the rest of the world happy. Hope and change is what we need.



.....this man drops the knowledge.


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> You really think that the US government just sits there and has nothing to do with anything? I think they try to push their own ideas in every single thing in these days.
> For example: Standard & Poor's lowering the ratings for the EU just to make the US look better, and of course everyone falls for that BS.



You're gonna give yourself a stroke trying to blow on that plugged horn so hard.

You're right... the EU economy is stronger than ever!


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> You're right... the EU economy is stronger than ever!



Sorry but where exactly did I say it was strong  Instead of lowering ratings, trying to kill each others economy we should all be taking actions on how to get out of this mess, and by mess I also mean the corruption in the governments (all of them!).
But nah spending money for ACTA/SOPA, trying to shut down TPB and all that BS is a lot better.


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> And not to mention, some countries can't even access some proper online music stores (iTunes etc.) which only leaves them the option to pirate.



Of course... because if your country doesn't sell Ferraris then the next logical step is to go steal one.  (what??  since it's only a 99 cent song it's okay? stealing is stealing... it's pretty black and white) 

Everyone wants to keep attacking the reaction but is so conveniently overlooking the initial action.  If people would just pay for their shit this would be a non-issue.


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

,rh


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> Of course... because if your country doesn't sell Ferraris then the next logical step is to go steal one.  (what??  since it's only a 99 cent song it's okay? stealing is stealing... it's pretty black and white)



I didn't say it's okay, but that's what people do.
Stealing a ferrari is much higher risk than downloading some content and thus people do it.


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> I didn't say it's okay, but that's what people do.
> Stealing a ferrari is much higher risk than downloading some content and thus people do it.



What seems so insignificant on the user end becomes a massive amount of money on the provider's end.  Can you really blame the entertainment industry for charging into this the way they are?  Think about it... they see the stats of millions (probobaly billions) of illegal file downlaods for media that was supposed to have been bought and they flip the fu*k out over it.  Hell... so would I if I were in their shoes.  But all these people are giving them and the government(s) so much flak over this shit because all they see is a few song files on their hard drive and maybe a couple of movies they didn't want to spend any money on.

I'm guilty of some software and music downloads in the past.  Heck, I even justified it with "I wouldn't have bought it anyways, so they didn't lose any money"... but one day I realized what a BS excuse that is.  I'm not going to buy a Ferrari either, doesn't mean I can steal one and go for a joy ride.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I get what your saying man. I'm glad you didnt take it as an insult. One place I have been wanting to go for years is Nam. My father said its beautiful.



It's an interesting place.... There are far more beutiful places in SE Asia, but VN is definetly worth a Visit,



Nemesis881 said:


> All this nonsense has got to end. The problem isn't that people won't pay for things, the problem is things are TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE. IF ONLY THERE WAS SOMEWAY TO GET CONTENT CHEAPLY AND LEGALLY!!....There are already services out there that provide nearly unlimited content at little to no cost and are proven profit makers...
> 
> cough...Steam, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon E-books...cough.



You hit the nail on the head.

Excuse me here while i go off on a tanget, i'll try to put this argument together as logically as possible, but i've had a few drinks and my thought process is convoluted.

How much did actors and directors and screenwriters get paid in Elizabethan times? Very little. They were looked down upon. Even Shakespeare himself was an undesirable. 
Why? 
One reason was because people, generally didn't have the money for frivolous things like theatre. People were more concerned with spending their money on things like food and housing.

Even if you look at the mid 20th century, actors, directors and screen writes were not highly paid professions. People simply didn't have the money to spend. The jobs were still there, there was little piracy, people got paid and we got to watch good movies.

Come the boom years, everyone (in the US and Europe) could afford to pay more for life's little extravagances. Hollywood changes their model and upped their prices to suit their consumer, or take advantage of their market, depending on how you view it.

Come the 21st century - There is a (growing) 2nd class society in America that no longer have the same budget to spend on entertainment, however there is still the existing baby boomers who have plenty of cash to spare. And so Hollywood is split, on the one hand there are people who can and will pay and those who cannot afford current prices.  If you were a business, who would you try to cater for? 

There is also a number of people who can pay, but won't. Was any different back in the 17-18th Century? People would sneak in to theaters or  watch from a distance, but it wouldn't be as good as paying a penny for your own seat. The industry offered the paying customer a lot more and so were not as worried about freeloaders but, i'm sure they did everything they could to discourage it. One of the main incentives being the cheap price for a seat.... anyway, that is an aside to the main point.

Hollywood is still basing it's business model on an outdated economy. They do not want to change and accept a reduction in income (as everyone else has done - tell me an actor who has, over the past 10 years, earned less money than they would have in the 90's) they would rather fight it and criminalize anyone unable to afford the price.

Globalization - Now this is one of the biggest factors, and is really a non argument. Would you pay a weeks wage to watch a film? no? thought not. And yet that's how much it would cost to see a (Hollywood) movie in many countries. There are some alternatives available, a cinema ticket might cost 1/2 a day's wage to the average worker, and guess what... in Vietnam cinema attendance is up at least 50x what it was 10 years ago. So instead of getting nothing for all their hard work, they have catered to their audience and are now getting something, although i am sure it is insignificant on a global scale, it show that they can adapt and cater to their market.

Of course, after a movie is no longer popular, it is not shown in the theatres and Hollywood can't make any money from dvd sales at american prices. And this is where there desperately needs to be a new model..

TLDR - There have always been the 3 types of customer - those who can pay and will, those who won;t and those who can't. Hollywood need to adapt and cater to both their (potential) paying audiences as the percentage population of their audience changes.

Afterthoughts - Politically speaking, i'm pretty sure Piracy is a very good thing for the US. If i were a politician, i would not give 2 shits if people pirated my countries content.. so long as they kept the "made in america" tag


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## F1reFly (Feb 1, 2012)

Hollywood needs to broaden their horizens a bit. i'm talkn more than a pay by month service like Netflix..cause their kinda limited in selection anyway, especially when it comes to streaming. Something like Steam for games where you have daily specials, weekend deals, package deals...etc. Make it for iosx, osx, linux, windows, android..etc.
If they make such a service and provide clients where you can access your collection, movie info's and even ability to just rent it or watch a bit of movie first to see if they want it. and various related content with similar deals and incentives and gifting's...people will easily pay.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> What seems so insignificant on the user end becomes a massive amount of money on the provider's end.  Can you really blame the entertainment industry for charging into this the way they are?  Think about it... they see the stats of millions (probobaly billions) of illegal file downlaods for media that was supposed to have been bought and they flip the fu*k out over it.  Hell... so would I if I were in their shoes.  But all these people are giving them and the government(s) so much flak over this shit because all they see is a few song files on their hard drive and maybe a couple of movies they didn't want to spend any money on.
> 
> I'm guilty of some software and music downloads in the past.  Heck, I even justified it with "I wouldn't have bought it anyways, so they didn't lose any money"... but one day I realized what a BS excuse that is.  I'm not going to buy a Ferrari either, doesn't mean I can steal one and go for a joy ride.



if you could moke a perfect copy of your neighbours and leave his intact, would you take that for a joyride?

Here's the history of the motion picture industry... http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/09/thomas-edisons-plot-to-hijack-the-movie-industry/all/1
Draw your own parallels


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> if you could copy your neighbours, would you?



6 years ago, I would have.  Today, no.  I see piracy as a very legitimate issue and I made a vow to myself several years ago to stop.  I won't even watch a bootleg dvd.

Now if I could just get my proclivity for driving over the speed limit wrapped up in the same "do the right thing" kind of mentality. :shadedshu

BTW, I think you made some really interesting points in your ridiculouslylongpostabove.  I hadn't considered those angles.  You're right, content providers need to find a way to fill certain gaps.  Maybe if piracy was only limited to those situations they would be more inclined to focus there, but instead they are dealing with a crapload of people that priate with no legitimate excuse and are probably overlooking the instances you brought up.


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> What seems so insignificant on the user end becomes a massive amount of money on the provider's end.  Can you really blame the entertainment industry for charging into this the way they are?  Think about it... they see the stats of millions (probobaly billions) of illegal file downlaods for media that was supposed to have been bought and they flip the fu*k out over it.  Hell... so would I if I were in their shoes.  But all these people are giving them and the government(s) so much flak over this shit because all they see is a few song files on their hard drive and maybe a couple of movies they didn't want to spend any money on.
> 
> I'm guilty of some software and music downloads in the past.  Heck, I even justified it with "I wouldn't have bought it anyways, so they didn't lose any money"... but one day I realized what a BS excuse that is.  I'm not going to buy a Ferrari either, doesn't mean I can steal one and go for a joy ride.



I fully agree and well written! But I can't stop wondering where were they when all this began, if pirating was to be stopped at the beginning things would be different now. And another thing I found interesting is that some claim (even a few artists) that they have put their songs intentionally on pirating sites and this caused the legal sales to go up (you can look at it as free advertising).
The only thing that bothers me is that quality of music (loudness wars anyone?) and games is really poor, I buy everything that justifies the price everything else I pirate try it and more or less I delete it anyway (the same way you mentioned it). If I knew everything had at least decent quality I would buy it straight away.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> Maybe if piracy was only limited to those situations they would be more inclined to focus there, but instead they are dealing with a crapload of people that priate with no legitimate excuse and are probably overlooking the instances you brought up.



It would be interesting to know the proportion of people who pirate for no legitimate excuse and those with one. I believe that those with one fall in to the majority. People tend to try to fit into social norms and if paying for what you use (when possible) is the norm, then most people will do it. otherwise society would have catastrophically failed a long time ago.

That is all speculation, however.


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

@ EnergyFX - If you download porn (i'm not saying you do), do you/would you pay for that?  As that is an industry that has genuinely been hit by piracy.

I think if people saw Tom Hanks in the street begging for money so that he can eat then piracy of large hollywood titles might be taken more seriously by the masses.


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> It would be interesting to know the proportion of people who pirate for no legitimate excuse and those with one. I believe that those with one fall in to the majority. People tend to try to fit into social norms and if paying for what you use (when possible) is the norm, then most people will do it. otherwise society would have catastrophically failed a long time ago.
> 
> That is all speculation, however.



Actually that is the truth, all my friends I know pirate pretty much everything and when I say something like "I'll buy that album..." they laugh at me and tell me that I'm crazy.


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> ... But I can't stop wondering where were they when all this began, if pirating was to be stopped at the beginning things would be different now...



When business models spring the likes of Napster, LimeWire, TPB, MegaUpload that facilitate the pirating the once managable (or at the very least insignificant) issue becomes a raging flood that can't be stopped without going after the source.  It's just smart focus of resources. The average person wont pirate something if it's a royal pain in the arse to do so, but when sites make it so fricking easy they apparently lose their sense of right and wrong and can't help themselves.



repman244 said:


> The only thing that bothers me is that quality of music (loudness wars anyone?) and games is really poor, I buy everything that justifies the price everything else I pirate try it and more or less I delete it anyway (the same way you mentioned it). If I knew everything had at least decent quality I would buy it straight away.



I wish game demos were more common.  Now days I rely entirely on online reviews to determine if a non-demo game is worth my money.  As for music, a Rhapsody account is a great thing.


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

Jarman said:


> @ EnergyFX - If you download porn (i'm not saying you do), do you/would you pay for that?  As that is an industry that has genuinely been hit by piracy.
> 
> I think if people saw Tom Hanks in the street begging for money so that he can eat then piracy of large hollywood titles might be taken more seriously by the masses.



Curious, are YouPorn, RedTube, etc. pirate sites?  Porn is an industry and if there isn't money to be made in it then it is going to disappear.   So no, I'm not going to pirate porn, but I also won't pay for it when there are sites like the ones listed above.  If you tell me that visiting them is partaking in pirating then I'll tell you now that I'll never visit them again.  Hmm, now you have me thinking.  Maybe I'll just find one site I am happy with and pay for their service.

And if you don't like how successful Tom Hanks is then don't watch his movies.  Still doesn't make stealing them okay.  Actually, I don't think you meant it that way, I see the point you were loosely trying to make.


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## repman244 (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> As for music, a Rhapsody account is a great thing.



Yes it's nice but does it have the quality of lossless music or an SACD source or some 24bit/96khz music? The most funny thing is that vinyl rips of music from the 70's or 80's is better than todays music (which could be higher quality if the mastering would be done properly and not compress it beyond belief), I buy the CD's (those of which I can, so I can support the artist) but my main source are vinyl rips (yes it's pirating but the music industry did it on their own by ruining the quality).


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

repman244 said:


> Actually that is the truth, all my friends I know pirate pretty much everything and when I say something like "I'll buy that album..." they laugh at me and tell me that I'm crazy.



I used to pirate everything when i was younger also. Nowadays i only pirate when i don't have another option. My steam collection is full of games i have never legitimation played, but i got pirated versions and loved them, the price was reasonable so i brought them. Also games which offer you additional content for money, i will gladly pay for.



EnergyFX said:


> When business models spring the likes of Napster, LimeWire, TPB, MegaUpload that facilitate the pirating the once managable (or at the very least insignificant) issue becomes a raging flood that can't be stopped without going after the source.  It's just smart focus of resources. The average person wont pirate something if it's a royal pain in the arse to do so, but when sites make it so fricking easy they apparently lose their sense of right and wrong and can't help themselves.



This is where the industry need to change and come up with a different model. But, you are getting it backwards. Either the industry need to offer more than you get from an illegal source or charge an amount of money that is proportionate.

I used to pirate stuff on my old amstrad (hi-speed dubbing ftw) but i also used to pay for most of my games. No one really gave a shit, it wasn't the end of the industry. Same thing happened with VCRs although i, myself, never copied any movies as it only used to cost a pound to go to the video store and rent one.


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## Frizz (Feb 1, 2012)

Those ads in movies you rent and attend to in cinemas where it tells you not to copy shit because it's stealing weren't just for show, so far this is the best example the Government has so far, taking down the most well known pirate site. Not to be a douche but it is about time, but their move imo highly contradicts their need for ACTA/SOPA/PIPA. Maybe this is a way for the elites to tell us that they don't need that shit after all but it's there under their christmas wish lists for satan.. I mean santa to deliver.


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

yes energyfx they are pirate sites.  Most of them owned by the same person, some of them now pay a royalty to the producers of the material, but not many.


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## EnergyFX (Feb 1, 2012)

silkstone said:


> if you could moke a perfect copy of your neighbours and leave his intact, would you take that for a joyride?
> 
> Here's the history of the motion picture industry... http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/09/thomas-edisons-plot-to-hijack-the-movie-industry/all/1
> Draw your own parallels



Ah you edited. Thought you meant copy a DVD. Hmm, copying a Ferrari and leaving the original intact... what a helluva temptation that would be. I dunno, it's an impossible hypothetical, but, as much as I would like to sit here and claim moral perfection, I'm not without my faults. I think I'd be more inclined to ask the neighbor for a joyride. It's easy to say that now though since the temptation doesn't actually exist.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by NdMk2o1o
> The US Government aka the internet police
> 
> Not just the US Government. Your own government has to LET them first. So ether your government is a bunch of pussys OR they are working with the US Government. Take your pick. Blame is equal on both ends.



obviously, 51st state and 1of 3 rings of power and all that, im starting to think this is all the dream of a camel sat on the back of a whale swimming and eating all our soles, why else was i born the soddin decade they made technology happen, now im forced to watch utter bollox on the box(not in my house tho) where i could have been born with sticks as entertainment but, none of the, We say shit from the Gov or 5 days in 2 off wtf  the worlds gone mad ,and its gettin worse the old selling us air analogy is starting to seem plausible these days, esspecially since billions in revenue appears to not be enough for the entertainment industry, they wana try some proper work the lazy gets theyd appreciate their money more


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## twicksisted (Feb 1, 2012)

NdMk2o1o said:


> The US Government aka the internet police :shadedshu



Unfortunately its not just internet police... its world police... team america F*****K YEAH! world domination is the goal


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## R_1 (Feb 1, 2012)

Well, we got to think different on this "IP piracy" subject, cause there is one-sided debate here presented by Big Media. First of all, they demanded control over intellectual property that is not their  own, but has other rightful owners - not for profit Industry Standards and Technology Organization or in most cases is open source. Second, Big Media demands that control to strangle competition, profiting from distributing their IP over existing data channels and not allowing others like MegaUpload to do so on behalf of the real IP authors.  Distributing digital content has obvious benefits, cause there is zero production cost for each new digital copy, no partner fees and you are  free to do whatever you want with pricing. That is quite good, till you operate in a perfectly competitive market. Big media is trying to effectively seas possession for themselves over existing data channels and their underlying IP, by forcing SOPA/PIPA legislation.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> obviously, 51st state and 1of 3 rings of power and all that, im starting to think this is all the dream of a camel sat on the back of a whale swimming and eating all our soles, why else was i born the soddin decade they made technology happen, now im forced to watch utter bollox on the box(not in my house tho) where i could have been born with sticks as entertainment but, none of the, We say shit from the Gov or 5 days in 2 off wtf  the worlds gone mad ,and its gettin worse the old selling us air analogy is starting to seem plausible these days, esspecially since billions in revenue appears to not be enough for the entertainment industry, they wana try some proper work the lazy gets theyd appreciate their money more



This is the problem with a centralized government. To much power. This is why when the US was formed we wanted the states to have power. Keep power local. 

But people are lazy and don't want to take any responsibility for themselves so we give the government the power to become our nanny's. You reap what you sow.

The only way to stop this is to stop sucking the governments tit and start living like you have a backbone and not expect them to bail you out with grants and free crap. Until then no one can complain.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

EnergyFX said:


> Ah you edited. Thought you meant copy a DVD. Hmm, copying a Ferrari and leaving the original intact... what a helluva temptation that would be. I dunno, it's an impossible hypothetical, but, as much as I would like to sit here and claim moral perfection, I'm not without my faults. I think I'd be more inclined to ask the neighbor for a joyride. It's easy to say that now though since the temptation doesn't actually exist.



And he would probably let you joyride it for a crate of beer and not ask you to pay the asking price of a Ferrari. Why would you bother going to the trouble of copying one? You aren;t going to drive one everyday and have no interest in owning one.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 1, 2012)

ive never ever played a pirated game that i thought was worth buying and not bought it, ill either buy it or not play it, ive allways a few to get through anyway so i see the odd shifty look at a new game whilst at a mates house or something as a demo, something games companys dont sometimes do, as it would inform the masses how poor some of their titles are 

plus i feel instead of moaning about such things devs and game companies should expend that cash and effort on making drm that is effective,invisible and also apply this too online cheating etc, i dont mind at all that my pc has to beauthorised for a game to play, ill even accept a frequent/allways online drm that works but im not happy with having limits set(activation) as its allways the same soddin pc anyway just eternally messing about with stuff me.

anyaway my  point is since rebuilding my pc 3 weeks ago crysis 2 has needed activating 5 times despite only OC changes and im locked out of it ,crysis 1 max edition all of, im locked out too, All im gona do is crack activate them, i pre paid for crysis 2 and own them all Legit, hard  boxed copy right here but it would be easier Still to DL a copy and play that then sort this fiasco out ,and thats a ridiculous scenario


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 1, 2012)

There are a lot of people posting to this thread who would, if they had any business drive, be screaming bloody murder if they saw someone using something they created without paying for it. Sadly these people posting are lazy do nothings who still live in their mom's basement.


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## garyinhere (Feb 1, 2012)

Any of you guys pay a royalty for your avatars... Stealing is stealing no matter how small. lol


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

garyinhere said:


> Any of you guys pay a royalty for your avatars... Stealing is stealing no matter how small. lol



I pay. Every waking hour of my life.


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## silkstone (Feb 1, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> There are a lot of people posting to this thread who would, if they had any business drive, be screaming bloody murder if they saw someone using something they created without paying for it. Sadly these people posting are lazy do nothings who still live in their mom's basement.



Yes, people are greedy.

However, if i were making something an not getting paid for it i would stop or find another way to market it.


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## twilyth (Feb 1, 2012)

Just out of curiosity and to save me from having to read the article or whatever, if they're paying $46M in fines, is there any indication of how much they made?

I'm asking because either they made a butt load more and won't have a problem paying the fine, or it's way more than they will ever make and therefore they're essentially judgment proof.  In either event, I don't see this case being much of a deterrent.  I mean the amount of jail time is laughable.  As they often say in the crime dramas, 'I could do 8 months standing on my head.'


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

I have no problems with people getting paid for their work.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 1, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> There are a lot of people posting to this thread who would, if they had any business drive, be screaming bloody murder if they saw someone using something of theirs without paying for it. Grow up.



i agree my only point is that pirateing should not be neccessary to anyone, dev companies could go about their business in a more open way and demo their games , how many games have you bought that actually told you their stupid drm rules in anything but the small print, thats a bit vague and disshonest, ill bet a few PC noobs have bought the same game twice cos they liked it but got locked out, and piracy should deffinately have never been made the easier option by dev companys stupid drm choices 

and secondly though its obviouse that companys would want to make all the money for them selves i do also think that the patency laws are truly stupid, and should all elapse much quicker, greed keeps them applied longer ,so more money can be made but many an evolution in human experiance is being culled and muted by the patent man, if all was known after ten years then a quicker evolution of something could happen due to competition


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## bostonbuddy (Feb 1, 2012)

I give the concept of owning intellectual property another 50 years.
The internet was created so information could spread freely across the world, once you open that door you can't close it.  Well you could but shutting down the internet would suck.


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## Frick (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> This is the problem with a centralized government. To much power. This is why when the US was formed we wanted the states to have power. Keep power local.



Hey, centralization is nothing but good.







EDIT:


bostonbuddy said:


> I give the concept of owning intellectual property another 50 years.
> The internet was created so information could spread freely across the world, once you open that door you can't close it.  Well you could but shutting down the internet would suck.



In my mind the future of the internet is that we pay for data; free gigabytes will no longer be and pretty much everything will be connected to the internet and will be if not checked filtered. DRM and volatile software that have limited uses. No data will be free. And on the other side will be a "darknet" of sorts, a black market internet. That's what I think will happen anyway.


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## bostonbuddy (Feb 1, 2012)

Frick said:


> Hey, centralization is nothing but good.
> 
> http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff230/Meathim/Paradox/centralization.png
> 
> ...



so you admit nothing will change, they'll be a fun shiny internet controlled by microsoft, google, and apple, and then the real internet where everybody goes to dl the latest episode of the the running man.
Money can still be made off of data, by providing fast secure dl's where you know you aren't getting a fake or a virus, but it won't be $30 for a movie, and most money will still be made the way it is now, thru advertising.


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## Frick (Feb 1, 2012)

bostonbuddy said:


> so you admit nothing will change, they'll be a fun shiny internet controlled by microsoft, google, and apple, and then the real internet where everybody goes to dl the latest episode of the the running man.



No no no. It will be a lot worse.


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## Kantastic (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Wouldnt matter. It will would be the Swedish fault for caving. Like I said hate America all you want. Doesnt change the fact its your own goverment doing it. Not the US.



Your logic astounds me. Is it a child's fault for getting raped?


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## Horrux (Feb 1, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Unfortunately its not just internet police... its world police... team america F*****K YEAH! world domination is the goal



It is, but not for America or Americans.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 1, 2012)

pirates always forget this simple point. if everyone pirated then there would be nothing to pirate. the pirates are the greedy ones because they dont pay for what they use and they demand somebody else does. never forget that.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> Your logic astounds me. Is it a child's fault for getting raped?



I dunno but from my recollections of history, Sweden is a little older then the United States. So if anyone is acting like a child its the US government and the Swedish government is a spineless parent for not putting it in its place.

See I can do analogies too.

Time to put on your big boy pants Europe and tell the US to F#%K off if you truly believe the US is only at fault for the world police crap.


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## Horrux (Feb 1, 2012)

Art should work on the basis of donations only.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Art should work on the basis of donations only.



lol get ready for a very bland world.


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## pantherx12 (Feb 1, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Art should work on the basis of donations only.



+ one to this, was going to come in and say if I created software or music art etc I would simply have a donation button somewhere on my website or within the software.

Not many donations?

Then I need to do better.

Need to make something that people WANT to donate money for.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> + one to this, was going to come in and say if I created software or music art etc I would simply have a donation button somewhere on my website or within the software.
> 
> Not many donations?
> 
> ...



Then it needs to apply to all professions. Doctors, Mechanics, Programmers, etc. Lets see how many people pay you for your hard work then.


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

Doctors dont make 50 million dollars for a 90 minute film


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Jarman said:


> Doctors dont make 50 million dollars for a 90 minute film



How is that relevant? Because they make more money then you all of a sudden they are sub-human and need to be stolen from?


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## Jarman (Feb 1, 2012)

it's relevant because if their wages weren't so high the films would cost less and the piracy rate would also decrease.

Also look at it another way.  An electrician puts up a light switch, he gets paid a flat fee for this.  Should he then get royalties for everyone that uses that light switch?


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## pantherx12 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then it needs to apply to all professions. Doctors, Mechanics, Programmers, etc. Lets see how many people pay you for your hard work then.



Ideally yeah, I can envision a world where people do things purely for the benefit of others.

If everyone was charitable then there would be no need for money.

Only problem is for this to happen people would have to let go of power/wealth they've racked up/inherited and well people with power are unwilling to give it up, even if it makes the entire world a better place to live.

One day it will happen though, it's just going to take something really awful to happen, or technological advancement to the point where we can manipulate energy into matter or at the least one form of matter into another.

(I.E pull food/clean water out our arse, to be able to create something from waste/or energy will be the end of the monetary system hopefully)


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

Jarman said:


> it's relevant because if their wages weren't so high the films would cost less and the piracy rate would also decrease.
> 
> Also look at it another way.  An electrician puts up a light switch, he gets paid a flat fee for this.  Should he then get royalties for everyone that uses that light switch?



Do you pay 90 million dollars to watch a movie? Because there is this new thing out called DVD's and they don't cost that much. Get this.....you can even RENT them without buying them and its LEGAL!! 



pantherx12 said:


> Ideally yeah, I can envision a world where people do things purely for the benefit of others.
> 
> If everyone was charitable then there would be no need for money.
> 
> ...



Yeah Ive seen Star Trek too but, you know.......its not real.


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## twilyth (Feb 1, 2012)

Why do people even bother arguing this - as if the morality or immorality is really an issue in terms of what motivates or deters people.  At some point it becomes like arguing religion.  Either you render unto Caesar what is Caesar's or you don't.  Arguments either way aren't going to change behavior and if you really believe otherwise, ok, it's not like I'm going to try to stop you.


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## pantherx12 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Do you pay 90 million dollars to watch a movie? Because there is this new thing out called DVD's and they don't cost that much. Get this.....you can even RENT them without buying them and its LEGAL!!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah Ive seen Star Trek too but, you know.......its not real.



Yeah but an awful lot of stuff we see in scifi ends up being real, take for example tablet computers 





Often times sci-fi inspires people to create what they see as well, almost like a self fulfilling prophecy : ]

Besides in terms of technology the rate we improve it far exceeds natural processes like evolution so I wouldn't even call it far fetched to expect we as species to manipulate energy in such a way eventually.

But anyway this is a discussion for somewhere else really.



I've already done my piece about piracy in general in another thread after all 
( In case people missed it I'm one of those people that wouldn't mind if someone came in my house and made copies of everything I owned so long as the originals were left intact, nor would I mind if a piece of software I made was shared, or piece of art I worked on was photographed. Basically don't see piracy as theft at all one bit.)


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Yeah but an awful lot of stuff we see in scifi ends up being real, take for example tablet computers
> http://www.fanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/mission10.jpg
> 
> Often times sci-fi inspires people to create what they see as well, almost like a self fulfilling prophecy : ]
> ...



Apes ruling the planet is more probable then a peace filled Star Trek world.......now that I think about it.........lol


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## pantherx12 (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Apes ruling the planet is more probable then a peace filled Star Trek world.......now that I think about it.........lol



My vote is for a 1984 type world, but hey a man can hope for the best right?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> My vote is for a 1984 type world, but hey a man can hope for the best right?



Its gonna be a mix of 1984 and Soylent Green I think. Maybe a sprinkle of Minority Report.


----------



## twilyth (Feb 1, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Often times sci-fi inspires people to create what they see as well, almost like a self fulfilling prophecy : ]


[offtopic] Well, now that we have things like IBM's Watson that will provide a natural language interface, HAL 9000 can't be too far off.  I for one welcome our cybernetic overlords and am eager to join their ranks. 

I think sci-fi captures only a small fraction of the ideas floating around out there at any given moment.  So it certainly presages some developments, but I think it's the exception for it to make them a reality very much sooner than would have bee the case anyway.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 1, 2012)

twilyth said:


> [offtopic] Well, now that we have things like IBM's Watson that will provide a natural language interface, HAL 9000 can't be too far off.  I for one welcome our cybernetic overlords and am eager to join their ranks.



Cybernetic overlords don't want washed up lawyers that smell like cat pee or art history majors. Sorry man.


----------



## twilyth (Feb 1, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Cybernetic overlords don't want washed up lawyers that smell like cat pee or art history majors. Sorry man.



Still beats being a dirty hippie.


----------



## KainXS (Feb 1, 2012)

Jailtime, has anyone ever seen sweedish prison

http://gizmodo.com/5881212/the-pirate-bays-founders-are-going-to-nice-prison

more like a closed vacation,

screw em i say


----------



## garyinhere (Feb 1, 2012)

Well MM it took longer than I had originally thought but, Welcome back my friend. Muahahahaha


----------



## twilyth (Feb 1, 2012)

KainXS said:


> Jailtime, has anyone ever seen sweedish prison
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/5881212/the-pirate-bays-founders-are-going-to-nice-prison
> 
> ...


Thanks for that link.  


> TF reports that because the case originated so long ago, and the defendants' sentences are so light to begin with (all less than a year each), they may end up never stepping foot in a cell. Sweden!



And sign me up for the free sex.


> And then there's this story, recounting three Israelis jailed abroad:
> 
> 
> 
> > Three Israelis jailed in Scandinavian country turn down offer to continue serving their sentence in homeland, explain 'here we are treated with steaks, sex and private television airing World Cup games for free'





garyinhere said:


> Well MM it took longer than I had originally thought but, Welcome back my friend. Muahahahaha


Personally, I'm appalled by his self-restraint.


----------



## garyinhere (Feb 1, 2012)

twilyth said:


> Personally, I'm appalled by his self-restraint.



Me too, everyone knows it's not stealing, there is no physical media so what's the big deal? I mean I could make some stupid ass 7 legged spider, let it roam the internet and say I could've made Thousands but people stole it.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> lol get ready for a very bland world.



So you think "super duper weapon 14" is entertaining. Good for ya.

For the rest of us, we know that acutal art happens not because of money, but because of beauty.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Horrux said:


> So you think "super duper weapon 14" is entertaining. Good for ya.
> 
> For the rest of us, we know that acutal art happens not because of money, but because of beauty.



Then you don't know any professional artists.


----------



## bostonbuddy (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its gonna be a mix of 1984 and Soylent Green I think. Maybe a sprinkle of Minority Report.



Nope, 100% starship troopers


----------



## Volkszorn88 (Feb 2, 2012)

Great news. 

Finally these bastards get what they deserve.


----------



## xtremesv (Feb 2, 2012)

Jarman said:


> it's relevant because if their wages weren't so high the films would cost less and the piracy rate would also decrease.
> 
> Also look at it another way.  An electrician puts up a light switch, he gets paid a flat fee for this.  Should he then get royalties for everyone that uses that light switch?



You're right and I like your analogy which TheMailMan78 couldn't refuse at all.

The retribution model for digital content is so broken.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Cybernetic overlords don't want washed up lawyers that smell like cat pee or art history majors. Sorry man.



omg the best thing ive read on the internet all year!!


----------



## twilyth (Feb 2, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> omg the best thing ive read on the internet all year!!


For the record, I just want everyone to know that I'm not an art history major.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

xtremesv said:


> You're right and I like your analogy which TheMailMan78 couldn't refuse at all.
> 
> The retribution model for digital content is so broken.



The analogy didn't apply to the conversation. But since it made you feel fuzzy inside you should run with that.


----------



## Platibus (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then it needs to apply to all professions. Doctors, Mechanics, Programmers, etc. Lets see how many people pay you for your hard work then.


LOL A doctor's and, say, a teacher's work simply cannot be compared to that of an authentic artist or a media "artist". Medicine and education is far more important than art.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Platibus said:


> LOL A doctor's and, say, a teacher's work simply cannot be compared to that of an authentic artist or a media "artist". Medicine and education is far more important than art.



I can see where someone without an education or common sense would think that. However someone with any kind of historical and or classical education knows better then that.


----------



## Kantastic (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I can see where someone without an education or common sense would think that. However someone with any kind of historical and or classical education knows better then that.



It doesn't take an education to know how insignificant art is to society. My apologies, but I can live without the Mona Lisa and Tupac. You can comment on my lack of education, but I can comment on the irony of your ignorant assumptions on a person's education from your lack of prose.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> It doesn't take an education to know how insignificant art is to society. My apologies, but I can live without the Mona Lisa and Tupac. You can comment on my lack of education, but I can comment on the irony of your ignorant assumptions on a person's education from your lack of prose.



Then remove the radio from your car, throw out your TV and music collection. Burn all your clothes. Toss out your furniture and tear any books in half. Don't forget all of those toys you have too. Like computer cases and anything else that a conceptual artist had his hand in. Then gouge your eyes out and cut your ears off to be sure you are never exposed to an artists work again. But be careful. Those doctors you will have to see after your artistic purge may have learned from a book with medical illustrations.

Yeah we contribute nothing to your life. Common sense isn't so common I guess.


----------



## Kantastic (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then remove the radio from your car, throw out your TV and music collection. Burn all your clothes. Toss out your furniture and tear any books in half. Don't forget all of those toys you have too. Like computer cases and anything else that a conceptual artist had his hand in. Then gouge your eyes out and cut your ears off to be sure you are never exposed to an artists work again. But be careful. Those doctors you will have to see after your artistic purge may have learned from a book with medical illustrations.
> 
> Yeah we contribute nothing to your life. Common sense isn't so common I guess.



You absolutely contribute nothing to my life, so I'm not going to inflict injury upon myself as a preventative measure from exposing myself to trash. I neither like listening to music nor watching television, so that is besides the point. Your definition of art includes everything that is more complex than a squiggly line; that's a philosophical argument more so than it is literal. By your definition, taking a shower is a form of art. Sweeping the floor is a form of art. Wiping my ass is a form of art. 

Art is art. Paintings and music are art; my socks and my boxers are not. I'm sorry if your overpriced and completely useless education taught you otherwise. A board certified doctor does not receive his license solely through a textbook-based education; there is a reason laboratory and residency are necessary.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> You absolutely contribute nothing to my life, so I'm not going to inflict injury upon myself as a preventative measure from exposing myself to trash. I neither like listening to music nor watching television, so that is besides the point. Your definition of art includes everything that is more complex than a squiggly line; that's a philosophical argument more so than it is literal. By your definition, taking a shower is a form of art. Sweeping the floor is a form of art. Wiping my ass is a form of art.
> 
> Art is art. Paintings and music are art; my socks and my boxers are not. I'm sorry if your overpriced and completely useless education taught you otherwise. A board certified doctor does not receive his license solely through a textbook-based education; there is a reason laboratory and residency are necessary.



That's why I said you need an education to understand how artists are relevant to your life. Everything I listed in my example is an example of a recognized art. Not sweeping the floor. Not wiping your ass. Your examples show a vast lack of understanding how things you use everyday in a recognized field in art. 

For example the doctors that treat you in a hospital learn a lot from medical books. Those medical books are FILLED with medical illustrations. The artists that created those illustrations have more education then the doctors that are reading them? How you ask? To be a medical artists you have to have a PHD. That's right those artist have to not only have the same PHD that a surgeon has but also get his/her masters in the field of medical illustration. They tend to know more about the human body then most practicing doctors. They have to do a residency also. 

So again you obviously do not understand and with the attitude of your last post I doubt you will.


----------



## NdMk2o1o (Feb 2, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> You absolutely contribute nothing to my life, so I'm not going to inflict injury upon myself as a preventative measure from exposing myself to trash. I neither like listening to music nor watching television, so that is besides the point. Your definition of art includes everything that is more complex than a squiggly line; that's a philosophical argument more so than it is literal. By your definition, taking a shower is a form of art. Sweeping the floor is a form of art. Wiping my ass is a form of art.
> 
> Art is art. Paintings and music are art; my socks and my boxers are not. I'm sorry if your overpriced and completely useless education taught you otherwise. A board certified doctor does not receive his license solely through a textbook-based education; there is a reason laboratory and residency are necessary.



Wow people should really know better by now. There is an saying something along the lines of never argue with an  TheMailMan idiot cause they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience...

We all know TMM is on a personal mission on this one right here and the more you come back the more he will continue to bait you 

Remember people...


----------



## Horrux (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then you don't know any professional artists.



There is no such thing as a professional artist. You're either an artist and you do it for the art in and of itself, or you are a sellout, catering to a low common denominator.

Don't get me wrong, I think art in general is mostly a waste of time and energy.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Horrux said:


> There is no such thing as a professional artist. You're either an artist and you do it for the art in and of itself, or you are a sellout, catering to a low common denominator.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think art in general is mostly a waste of time and energy.




If that's true there has NEVER been a master in history that wasn't a sellout. By the way nice avatar.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> If that's true there has NEVER been a master in history that wasn't a sellout. By the way nice avatar.



You fail to understand what you yourself write as "professional" artist.

The great masters aren't necessarily "professional" artists. 

But the moment something becomes your profession, it literally means you do it for the money. Hence, you do not do it for the art itself. If they do it for the money, they WILL deviate from what they would otherwise do, if even slightly, in order to please a client. Thus, they are selling out.  Sigh. Inferior intellects bore me. :shadedshu


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Horrux said:


> You fail to understand what you yourself write as "professional" artist.
> 
> The great masters aren't necessarily "professional" artists.
> 
> But the moment something becomes your profession, it literally means you do it for the money. Hence, you do not do it for the art itself. Sigh. :shadedshu



Name an artist that was a great that didn't do it for a commission at one point.

Go ahead Ill wait.



> Thus, they are selling out. Sigh. Inferior intellects bore me



People who talk about a subject they have no real knowledge of amuse me.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Name an artist that was a great that didn't do it for a commission at one point.
> 
> Go ahead Ill wait.



Why? Because you fail to see what I'm talking about, and thus need to reduce it to something you can grasp?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Why? Because you fail to see what I'm talking about, and thus need to reduce it to something you can grasp?



The difference between you and me is I have a degree in Illustration. You are the one grasping at played out talking points and stereotypes. 

You are attempting to troll a troll master my friend. You need to be more subtle to be effective.


----------



## Frick (Feb 2, 2012)

Horrux said:


> But the moment something becomes your profession, it literally means you do it for the money. Hence, you do not do it for the art itself. If they do it for the money, they WILL deviate from what they would otherwise do, if even slightly, in order to please a client. Thus, they are selling out.  Sigh. Inferior intellects bore me. :shadedshu



Like every single person in the history of ever, artist or no.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The difference between you and me is I have a degree in Illustration. You are the one grasping at played out talking points and stereotypes.
> 
> You are attempting to troll a troll master my friend. You need to be more subtle to be effective.



I'm sure there are many more differences between you and I.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The difference between you and me is I have a degree in Illustration. You are the one grasping at played out talking points and stereotypes.
> 
> You are attempting to troll a troll master my friend. You need to be more subtle to be effective.



please change your user title to "Troll Master"


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

lol We better get back on topic. I sense the hammer.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> lol We better get back on topic. I sense the hammer.



i dont think the hammer exists anymore. 

back on topic. pirates suck.


----------



## Yo_Wattup (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan, seriously why do you care so much about pirating? I'm a music artist, and I don't care who steals my stuff, art is for sharing. And besides, with all the wars and bullshit going WHY SHOULD THE US FOCUS ON THIS SHIT, maybe we steal online because oh I dunno, we can't afford anything because of the goddamn oil prices.

It pisses me off when people like you would rather support the multi-millionaire pigs in Hollywood more than the orphaned kids and whatnot in Afghanistan.

No offence intended, I just want a rational debate.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 2, 2012)

Yo_Wattup said:


> TheMailMan, seriously why do you care so much about pirating? I'm a music artist, and I don't care who steals my stuff, art is for sharing. And besides, with all the wars and bullshit going WHY SHOULD THE US FOCUS ON THIS SHIT, maybe we steal online because oh I dunno, we can't afford anything because of the goddamn oil prices.
> 
> It pisses me off when people like you would rather support the multi-millionaire pigs in Hollywood more than the orphaned kids and whatnot in Afghanistan.
> 
> No offence intended, I just want a rational debate.



Because I make money off of copyrights and my art.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because I make money off of copyrights and my art.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 2, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because I make money off of copyrights and my art.



Sellout.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 2, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Sellout.


----------



## Wrigleyvillain (Feb 2, 2012)

More like "house and feed the family" but yeah...


----------



## Prima.Vera (Feb 2, 2012)

I think this whole deal is a circus bs. How can you compare IT Pirates with real Pirates??? Even the words "_*Pirated content*_" are flawed. *Pirates rob ships, cargo, etc, they DON'T copy it, than share it with the world*. Common people weak up and use your brains for a chance!! You are living in a dream world controlled by others, haha! 

P.S.

I know murder criminals treated better than those Swedish guys btw...


----------



## silkstone (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because I make money off of copyrights and my art.



Would you care if i printed out a copy of one of your pieces of art, framed it and put it on my living-room wall?

IMO, there are two distinct types of piracy, those for profit and those of opportunity. I hold different opinions of both as they are vastly different.


----------



## Yo_Wattup (Feb 3, 2012)




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## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

silkstone said:


> Would you care if i printed out a copy of one of your pieces of art, framed it and put it on my living-room wall?
> 
> IMO, there are two distinct types of piracy, those for profit and those of opportunity. I hold different opinions of both as they are vastly different.



yeah lets be honest here, unless youre picasso or van gough, i dont think that you can view someone "appreciating" your art by showing it to friends and hanging a "copy" on his wall as damaging to your "art"... youre actually lucky that people are interested and viewing it in the first place.

If im wrong, please link me to your "art" and give me a rough estimate on the "value" you put on it and sell it for so i can get a perspective.

EDIT: Just as a basic background here, I have worked for (not going to name drop) major record labels and have managed labels for 7 years, I finally left the music industry last year and vowed never to return. My views of so called piracy have definately changed over the years... perhaps a few years ago before major corporations got involved in coercing politicians into writing laws, I was anti someone stealing works from someone, thesedays I find the line incredibly blurry as the actualy beneficiarys arent the artists but major corporations


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Spoken well.


----------



## driver66 (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> Spoken well.



Yes .  Very well said, and true .


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

hey, look at the people justifying stealing somebody else's property. in this day and age artist's don't need big distributors to sell their work now that we have the internet. obviously this scares the big distributors because they are quickly realizing they are all but irrelevant so they are fighting hard to protect their own. this doesn't justify you stealing their stuff though. instead, you should be promoting and buying from independent artists and smaller labels through the internet to foster the coming change of digital and independent distribution.


----------



## erocker (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> you should be promoting and buying from independent artists and smaller labels through the internet to foster the coming change of digital and independent distribution.



Double thanks.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

If people have the money, they are going to spend it on things they like or I guess millions and millions of people truly are petty thieves(Gasp!). Ironically enough its the people doing all the pirating that are paving the way to the new age of digital distribution. 

I make my music for people to enjoy, that brings me the greatest satisfaction, I'd beg for my stuff to be all around the net. The big industries are overflowing with cash from big actors,authors, artists, etc... living luxuriantly while the people who get their stuff for free are just trying to make it by or are middle class paying for school,etc... The ones complaining are the people who already have the fame and wealth.  

I don't hear any small time artists complaining about piracy? Why? Because if they were so heavily pirated they wouldn't be a small time artist.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Feb 3, 2012)

Slightly off topic:


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

Not name dropping yet again but just an insiders view to the record industry... one of the major dance compilation record labels, thats very well advertised here in the UK and abroad, uses bittorrent to "aquire" track masters for their compilation CD's... yes, we are talking about MP3 320kbps files used to press CD compilations lol, not legitimate torrents from actual known sources, just plain old low quality pirated tracks available freely to everyone else... its ridiculous... also i might add that that label and their brand launched a campaign of sueing people who used torrents to download their copyrighted music a few years back in the UK... not sure how well that went for them. What a joke.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> If people have the money, they are going to spend it on things they like or I guess millions and millions of people truly are petty thieves(Gasp!). Ironically enough its the people doing all the pirating that are paving the way to the new age of digital distribution.
> 
> I make my music for people to enjoy, that brings me the greatest satisfaction, I'd beg for my stuff to be all around the net. The big industries are overflowing with cash from big actors,authors, artists, etc... living luxuriantly while the people who get their stuff for free are just trying to make it by or are middle class paying for school,etc... The ones complaining are the people who already have the fame and wealth.
> 
> I don't hear any small time artists complaining about piracy? Why? Because if they were so heavily pirated they wouldn't be a small time artist.



Because those artist don't make money of off copyrights. Basically "They are doing it wrong". I'm a small time artist and I am against piracy of ANY kind. Why? Because I make money off of copyrights.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because those artist don't make money of off copyrights. Basically "They are doing it wrong". I'm a small time artist and I am against piracy of ANY kind. Why? Because I make money off of copyrights.



You mention that you are an illustrator... how exactly is internet piracy affecting your work?... also if youre an illustrator then how are you earning royaltys from your work.

Could you provide an example of your work as im confused as to how an illustrator is getting royaltys and also how internet piracy like illegal filesharing and torrents could even affect someone who is an illustrator.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because those artist don't make money of off copyrights. Basically "They are doing it wrong". I'm a small time artist and I am against piracy of ANY kind. Why? Because I make money off of copyrights.



You'd probably do better if you stopped being against piracy and started working with it a bit.
Maybe advertise and offer some of your stuff for free get it out there to a wider audience.
Also doing some gigs help.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because those artist don't make money of off copyrights. Basically "They are doing it wrong". I'm a small time artist and I am against piracy of ANY kind. Why? Because I make money off of copyrights.



piracy is theft. theft is wrong. why is theft wrong? because if everyone did it then there would be nothing to steal. thieves are greedy because they expect everyone else to pay for something they got for free.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> piracy is theft. theft is wrong. why is theft wrong? because if everyone did it then there would be nothing to steal. thieves are greedy because they expect everyone else to pay for something they got for free.



Except that with digital theft there is always plenty to "steal". Seeing how none of it is physical and all.

Check out my tracks and download and share them as much as yall like, just give credit where credit is due. 

If you don't like it then find someone who does! 

http://soundcloud.com/gerfeso


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> Except that with digital theft there is always plenty to steal. Seeing how non of it is physical and all.



no. the people who make the content will stop producing it. that means there will be nothing to steal because the people who are paid to make it will simply stop making it.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> You mention that you are an illustrator... how exactly is internet piracy affecting your work?... also if youre an illustrator then how are you earning royaltys from your work.
> 
> Could you provide an example of your work as im confused as to how an illustrator is getting royaltys and also how internet piracy like illegal filesharing and torrents could even affect someone who is an illustrator.


 Clip art and illustrations I have created downloaded and used without being paid for. That's how it effects me.



AphexDreamer said:


> You'd probably do better if you stopped being against piracy and started working with it a bit.
> Maybe advertise and offer some of your stuff for free get it out there to a wider audience.
> Also doing some gigs help.


 Ah and how would I do that? The best way to make money is through a distributer. They have more resources then I could ever have. Its just a matter of post crap on the internet. Its about marketing. You will NEVER be anything without marketing. Sure you MIGHT get lucky but the odds are against you.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> no. the people who make the content will stop producing it. that means there will be nothing to steal because the people who are paid to make it will simply stop making it.



That is assuming that everyone does it for the money. As far as I'm aware there are plenty of people who make the content for the content itself and not the money. AKA doing it for the pleasure of making art.




TheMailMan78 said:


> Ah and how would I do that? The best way to make money is through a distributer. They have more resources then I could ever have. Its just a matter of post crap on the internet. Its about marketing. You will NEVER be anything without marketing. Sure you MIGHT get lucky but the odds are against you.



Putting up stuff for free is the best kind of marketing.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> That is assuming that everyone does it for the money. As far as I'm aware there are plenty of people who make the content for the content itself and not the money. AKA doing it for the pleasure of making art.



Those people usually suck as artists too.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)




----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Those people usually suck as artists too.



Well beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. Its all relative. 

So that is a blanket statement.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> That is assuming that everyone does it for the money. As far as I'm aware there are plenty of people who make the content for the content itself and not the money. AKA doing it for the pleasure of making art.



how many artists do you know make things and give them away? how many of them have already accomplished a great deal and have become rich. how does that justify theft?


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Clip art and illustrations I have created downloaded and used without being paid for. That's how it effects me.



You must be quite famous for other people to consider counterfeighting? perhaps you are...

Do you have an example of these illustrations to show us? Im just trying to get perspective of what we are talking about here. Most people who pirate, do so with music or movies... i havent really come across people pirating/torrenting drawings before in my personal experience.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> how many artists do you know make things and give them away? how many of them have already accomplished a great deal and have become rich. how does that justify theft?



Plenty, in fact most of soundcloud. Its usually only the really talented and gifted ones that become rich, that or the already rich ones, that or the ones people adore the most.  

As far as justifying theft? Well if I could copy a Ferrari and paste it in my driveway, lets just say I would.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

See people used to pirate because they were pissed they bought a whole album for just one song. That was the excuse. Now you have itune allows you to preview and buy songs individually.

So the excuse now is the companies are to greedy. Theft is theft. No one here is believing the BS.



twicksisted said:


> You must be quite famous for other people to consider counterfeighting? perhaps you are...
> 
> Do you have an example of these illustrations to show us? Im just trying to get perspective of what we are talking about here. Most people who pirate, do so with music or movies... i havent really come across people pirating/torrenting drawings before in my personal experience.



Because you are not in my field. And yes I am known in my field. Ive created the primary art for several super bowls. Ive worked for Disney, Wanner Bros, Marvel, NFL, NBA, MLS, MLB and many others.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> See people used to pirate because they were pissed they bought a whole album for just one song. That was the excuse. Now you have itune allows you to preview and buy songs individually.
> 
> So the excuse now is the companies are to greedy. Theft is theft. No one here is believing the BS.
> 
> ...



Companies treat their artists like crap anyways. I'd rather pay my artist directly where I know they are getting every cent then buy through a company. I don't need the fancy physical copy, I get it for its contents.
Actually The Flashbulb complained about itunes selling his stuff without him even knowing and he wasn't even getting any money from it and preferred if his fans did not get his stuff from there.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> See people used to pirate because they were pissed they bought a whole album for just one song. That was the excuse. Now you have itune allows you to preview and buy songs individually.
> 
> So the excuse now is the companies are to greedy. Theft is theft. No one here is believing the BS.
> 
> ...



Again, can you show me an example here.... do you have a website or a link to some of your work... im not trying to flame you, i am just interested as to how your drawings or illustrations are earning you "royaltys"... usually these are reserved for TV/ Radio / Magazine coverage and not for personal public useage.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Again, can you show me an example here.... do you have a website or a link to some of your work... im not trying to flame you, i am just interested as to how your drawings or illustrations are earning you "royaltys"... usually these are reserved for TV/ Radio / Magazine coverage and not for personal public useage.



Did this one years ago. Still getting paid.







This one did ok.






These are old. But you get the idea.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> As far as justifying theft? Well if I could copy a Ferrari and paste it in my driveway, lets just say I would.



well we can stop the conversation there then since you do not value other people's labor.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Did this one years ago. Still getting paid.
> 
> http://prod.bsis.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/153/153186/folders/100356/679406TECNOSCOOBY.jpg
> 
> ...



OK well thats cool, but im just trying to figure out how exactely you are losing money from internet piracy? you get paid to draw a banner or a logo etc..

Thats a very specific artwork or banner for some client... if someone else puts that on their photobucket page or myspace page how is that hurting you? If anything isnt that just expanding your audience... perhaps someone see's it and asks who did it and where they can commission the work etc.. Im just having a hard time figuring out how you are losing money through piracy as an illustrator.
We are also talking about a "right click, save as jpeg" form of downloading here which to my knowledge isnt really seen as piracy unless its used to make money elsewhere. (if it was illegal your browser would be committing a crime caching the img files)


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> well we can stop the conversation there then since you do not value other people's labor.



Thing is if everything could be copied then labour wouldn't be needed would it?

I think the problem here is people trying to make money through 1s and 0s.

Like it or not it is not the same as the tactile world.

Yeah I'd pay for an original piece of work but a copy of something is an entirely different ball game.

Regarding real life stuff though(and myself), if I ever created a device* that made peoples life easier, I'd patent it but allow people to reproduce the device for free( so long as they don't make money from doing so)

Seems fair enough to me, other people are doing the work after all why should I expect anything for them copying my idea?

*Or piece of art, music etc etc etc.

In fact I wouldn't even know if someone copied my work eh? Unless I was chasing it up, which is a waste of my time.


By the way my Avatar is an original piece of work ( although clearly based on the thundercats logo lol) feel free to download it and share it with friends, I have a high res original somewhere too!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> OK well thats cool, but im just trying to figure out how exactely you are losing money from internet piracy? you get paid to draw a banner or a logo etc..
> 
> Thats a very specific artwork or banner for some client... if someone else puts that on their photobucket page or myspace page how is that hurting you? If anything isnt that just expanding your audience... perhaps someone see's it and asks who did it and where they can commission the work etc.. Im just having a hard time figuring out how you are losing money through piracy as an illustrator.



Not all work is commissioned. Some is very generic and sold through a service. When someone DLs a sample of my work and uses it for profit I get nothing. Only when they pay my distributor do I get a cut. Savvy?

Now if I can prove someone used my art without paying for it I can sue. But I cannot afford to do that all the time. It happens a LOT. But my distributer can. They are like my pimp.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> well we can stop the conversation there then since you do not value other people's labor.



That is certainly not true. That is just what the medium of the internet provides us with the capabilities to do. The labor is being done once and then being copied, but never going through the whole process of labor a second time which would be the time it was copied over and to me. I still respect the initial labor done to provide me with the art (Whatever it maybe) and still strongley support anything I enjoy from the net with my money (When financially able). 

Of course the Ferrari example was merely an analogy and clearly not possible in the physical realm of things. Thus any labor done in the digital realm isn't exactly as physically exhausting as building a Ferrari.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Thing is if everything could be copied then labour wouldn't be needed would it?
> 
> I think the problem here is people trying to make money through 1s and 0s.
> 
> ...



you must not have ever worked a day in your life then. if everything is copied then nobody will make anything new because they will do all the hard work of creating a new product and other people will simply take it from them and use it without paying. if you dont get paid you cant eat. this is simple logic. im getting very scared of the this new generation...


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> you must not have ever worked a day in your life then. if everything is copied then nobody will make anything new because they will do all the hard work of creating a new product and other people will simply take it from them and use it without paying. if you dont get paid you cant eat. this is simple logic. im getting very scared of the this new generation...



Its the commie education system.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> you must not have ever worked a day in your life then. if everything is copied then nobody will make anything new because they will do all the hard work of creating a new product and other people will simply take it from them and use it without paying. if you dont get paid you cant eat. this is simple logic. im getting very scared of the this new generation...



I've worked plenty sah.

Also all the best ideas are "just taken" anyway, and you know what it done? ( Could you imagine if people never shared ideas? That would lead to stagnation without doubt ha ha)

Benefited everyone and allowed us to develop further and faster.

Free data is the way forward.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its the commie education system.



greedy bastards



pantherx12 said:


> I've worked plenty sah.
> 
> Also all the best ideas are "just taken" anyway, and you know what it done?
> 
> ...



wut? so you expect to get paid for your work but you dont expect other people too. wow seriously wow....


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> you must not have ever worked a day in your life then. if everything is copied then nobody will make anything new because they will do all the hard work of creating a new product and other people will simply take it from them and use it without paying. if you dont get paid you cant eat. this is simple logic. im getting very scared of the this new generation...



You certainly jump to drastic conclusion based on little knowledge, regarding the statement suggesting he hasn't worked a day in his life. 

You are suggesting that everything being copied means no sales, while just the opposite has been shown suggesting that things being copied means more sales. I suppose it also depends on what is being copied. People aren't going to buy things they can't afford to begin with.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> greedy bastards
> 
> 
> 
> wut? so you expect to get paid for your work but you dont expect other people too. wow seriously wow....



Actually no I don't, how ever I live in England so it's kind of the social norm.

Also I legally cannot live freely in this country, so you know.

I'm kinda forced to work for money rather than just build a house somewhere and farm.


I would like to live in a resource/time based economy.

I.E Filthy Hippy world.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Not all work is commissioned. Some is very generic and sold through a service. When someone DLs a sample of my work and uses it for profit I get nothing. Only when they pay my distributor do I get a cut. Savvy?
> 
> Now if I can prove someone used my art without paying for it I can sue. But I cannot afford to do that all the time. It happens a LOT. But my distributer can. They are like my pimp.



Sorry to say but its kind of your fault for putting it online at some image library... you notice most high street shops have anti theft devices in place to deter criminals... metal bars, security guards, burgular alarms... if you care about protecting your illustrations then dont post them to an online distributor in jpeg/gif/tiff formats where they can easily be copied.

Also how are you able to verify that someone has illegally shared your artwork... isnt it just a jpeg/tiff/gif file on the interwebs? Arent most online images at digital photo librarys in low res formats for previewing and only if you pay you get the high res file?

Anyways im not trying to poke fun at you here, im just not convinced that you have suffered at the hands of internet pirates


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> I'm kinda forced to work for money rather than just build a house somewhere and farm.



you still need to pay people for the tools you use and the land you use. or should you get that for free as well?


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> greedy bastards
> 
> 
> 
> wut? so you expect to get paid for your work but you dont expect other people too. wow seriously wow....





Easy Rhino said:


> you still need to pay people for the tools you use and the land you use. or should you get that for free as well?




That is a very narrow view of things. 
You generalize work as though everyone does the same kind of work. 
I get paid for my work at the office but I don't get paid for my musical work no. I share that stuff for free.

Actually my neighbor lends me his tools. Call the pirate police on me for that one.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> you still need to pay people for the tools you use and the land you use. or should you get that for free as well?



I can make my own tools.

As for paying for land 5% of the population here owns the land, in fact one person in particular owns shit tons of it ( The Queen) why the fuck should I have to pay her?(Not that you can buy land Anyway, other wise groups of people would and then not pay tax etc, only get 100 years lease maximum)

Because people that were her ancestors once killed a bunch of people to get it?

How archaic. 

Land should be something that is shared amongst people.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Yeah I'd pay for an original piece of work but a copy of something is an entirely different ball game.



To steal something you need to take something away from someone. With filesharing you havent stolen anything as the original is still there intact with that person.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> I can make my own tools.
> 
> As for paying for land 5% of the population here owns the land, in fact one person in particular owns shit tons of it ( The Queen) why the fuck should I have to pay her?
> 
> ...



"The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."
Jean-Jacques Rousseau


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> "The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."
> Jean-Jacques Rousseau



What a beautiful quote, thanks for sharing.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Sorry to say but its kind of your fault for putting it online at some image library... you notice most high street shops have anti theft devices in place to deter criminals... metal bars, security guards, burgular alarms... if you care about protecting your illustrations then dont post them to an online distributor in jpeg/gif/tiff formats where they can easily be copied.
> 
> Also how are you able to verify that someone has illegally shared your artwork... isnt it just a jpeg/tiff/gif file on the interwebs? Arent most online images at digital photo librarys in low res formats for previewing and only if you pay you get the high res file?
> 
> Anyways im not trying to poke fun at you here, im just not convinced that you have suffered at the hands of internet pirates



Ok first you say I should post stuff for free exposure then you say Its my fault for getting stolen from because I posted it online. Wait what?

So because something is easy to take then I deserve to be stolen from? Well why have laws at all then? Just take what we want when we want right?I just hope you are good with a gun and have no ties to family in that world.

Oh and I have been stolen from MANY times. I've seen the suits my distributer has filed for damages.



AphexDreamer said:


> "The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."
> Jean-Jacques Rousseau



Cool. Gimme your house.


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## erocker (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Land should be something that is shared amongst people.



Feelings and reality are two different things whether they are fair or not. If you "pirate" something and get caught, you may get a nasty fine. I you're cought by some landowner for tresspassing on their property, you may get a bullet in the ass. 

Some people need to realize that entitlement is earned, not given regardless of their feelings on the subject. I'm not making my opinion one way or the other, just stating reality.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

erocker said:


> Feelings and reality are two different things whether they are fair or not. If you "pirate" something and get caught, you may get a nasty fine. I you're cought by some landowner for tresspassing on their property, you may get a bullet in the ass.
> 
> Some people need to realize that entitlement is earned, not given regardless of their feelings on the subject. I'm not making my opinion one way or the other, just stating reality.



Gasp you mean work for a living! THE HORROR!


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Gasp you mean work for a living! THE HORROR!



I know have you considered it as an alternative to your heavily pirated art?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> I know have you considered it as an alternative to your heavily pirated work?



I work over 12 hours a day creating art for lazy fucks to steal and sell. I might be able to spend sometime with my family if people would just pay me for my service instead of being lazy entitlement bastards. If they worked half as hard at a job as they do making excuses they wouldnt have to pirate.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ok first you say I should post stuff for free exposure then you say Its my fault for getting stolen from because I posted it online. Wait what?
> 
> So because something is easy to take then I deserve to be stolen from? Well why have laws at all then? Just take what we want when we want right?I just hope you are good with a gun and have no ties to family in that world.
> 
> Oh and I have been stolen from MANY times. I've seen the suits my distributer has filed for damages.



If your local walmart left its doors open overenight do you think the insurance company would pay out after they got cleaned out? They were careless to not have secured their property properly and should accept liability.

Also no offense here but we are talking about a picture of scoobydoo and cartoon nascar drawing which can only really be used by a very few organisations of which probably already have their own stock art originals to use for free... im just not seeing how you are getting pirated and losing loads of income from your drawings. Im also not sure how you/your distributor are finding out who has right clicked and saved your image files to their hardrives.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

erocker said:


> Feelings and reality are two different things whether they are fair or not. If you "pirate" something and get caught, you may get a nasty fine. I you're cought by some landowner for tresspassing on their property, you may get a bullet in the ass.
> 
> Some people need to realize that entitlement is earned, not given regardless of their feelings on the subject. I'm not making my opinion one way or the other, just stating reality.



Who decides who earns what?*

Surely the very act of creating a home and cultivating the land means you have earned it.

*Rhetorical question obviously, it's banks,government and people who buy up houses and land in order to make profit.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> What a beautiful quote, thanks for sharing.



Np. Beautiful isn't it. To believe I copied and pasted the words right out of his mouth and caused such an intellectual impact on you all for free.


----------



## erocker (Feb 3, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> I know have you considered it as an alternative to your heavily pirated art?



Wow, what an ignorant statement! So making something for a living isn't a job? Actually, I don't know why I even bothered to respond to you as it's most likely futile based on your statement.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Also no offense here but we are talking about a picture of scoobydoo and cartoon nascar drawing which can only really be used by a very few organisations of which probably already have their own stock art originals to use for free... im just not seeing how you are getting pirated and losing loads of income from your drawings. Im also not sure how you/your distributor are finding out who has right clicked and saved your image files to their hardrives.



Because Im not gonna post generic stuff thats easy to steal. Want to see some of my work? Shutterstock.com.



twicksisted said:


> If your local walmart left its doors open overenight do you think the insurance company would pay out after they got cleaned out? They were careless to not have secured their property properly and should accept liability.



No but anyone caught stealing from said walmart would go to jail wouldnt they. So should pirates.


----------



## erocker (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Who decides who earns what?*
> 
> Surely the very act of creating a home and cultivating the land means you have earned it.
> 
> *Rhetorical question obviously, it's banks,government and people who buy up houses and land in order to make profit.



Supply, demand and money. Communism, which is exactly what you are talking about is rather dead. I suppose you could always take up some sort of revolution and have folks join your communistic rebellion against the profiteers... Or just go stand somewhere with the so called "99%"


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

erocker said:


> Wow, what an ignorant statement! So making something for a living isn't a job? Actually, I don't know why I even bothered to respond to you as it's most likely futile based on your statement.



I was responding to him at the same level he would respond to me. I can fluctuate like that.

Sure it is, but should it be your only means? Depending on what you do you might have to do gigs/shows or have another job that isn't just your art to make it. Unless you are really good/talented  I'd recommend having a backup job.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

erocker said:


> Supply, demand and money. Communism, which is exactly what you are talking about is rather dead. I suppose you could always take up some sort of revolution and have folks join your communistic rebellion against the profiteers.



Actually what I'm talking about is closer to Anarchy, only with rules so not full on Anarchy.*

Someone always assumes control in an anarchy so it never works anyway 

* Think of it as A democracy, only a proper one and not the faux democracy we have today.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

erocker said:


> Supply, demand and money. Communism, which is exactly what you are talking about is rather dead. I suppose you could always take up some sort of revolution and have folks join your communistic rebellion against the profiteers... Or just go stand somewhere with the so called "99%"



That's what this comes down to. Pirates believe in slavery. Artist believe in liberty.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Because Im not gonna post generic stuff thats easy to steal. Want to see some of my work? Shutterstock.com.
> 
> 
> 
> No but anyone caught stealing from said walmart would go to jail wouldnt they. So should pirates.



Until the lines between the virtual world and real world blur more i think youll find that robbing a physical shop and copying a digital packet are very different.

The directors of my ISP should be locked up as their company caches the files that i browse and most websites that ive gone to have copyrighted artwork, music etc on them. Perhaps we should lock up all of the staff... maybe not the secretarys (if they sexy).


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Land should be something that is shared amongst people.



how should it be shared?


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> That's what this comes down to. Pirates believe in slavery. Artist believe in liberty.



You're either trolling or really silly, that statement is just down right wrong.

Not that I'm saying Artists don't believe in liberty, but pirates are generally the most liberal people you will meet 



Easy Rhino said:


> how should it be shared?





Grid system brah.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> That's what this comes down to. Pirates believe in slavery. Artist believe in liberty.



Thats very black and white. 
Yeah you mean the artists that give away all their tracks for free are turning people into pirates? 

Or the artists that are charging people for their pieces and restricting access to them by monetary means only believe in liberty. 

I could see that working out backwards.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> That's what this comes down to. Pirates believe in slavery. Artist believe in liberty.



you sound like you support SOPA, PIPA & ACTA yet you talk about freedom


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> You're either trolling or really silly, that statement is just down right wrong.
> 
> Not that I'm saying Artists don't believe in liberty, but pirates are generally the most liberal people you will meet
> 
> ...



and who organizes the grid?


----------



## erocker (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Actually what I'm talking about is closer to Anarchy, only with rules so not full on Anarchy.*
> 
> Someone always assumes control in an anarchy so it never works anyway
> 
> * Think of it as A democracy, only a proper one and not the faux democracy we have today.



Your thinking is based on "if everyone behaves themselves". In principal it's a wonderful thing, I agree.. In reality, your lovely plot of land would be quickly taken by thugs, nogooddoers, gypsies, etc..


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> and who organizes the grid?



Grids don't need organised, they are grids.

Grids by definition are organised an structure.



erocker said:


> Your thinking is based on "if everyone behaves themselves". In principal it's a wonderful thing, I agree.. In reality, your lovely plot of land would be quickly taken by thugs, nogooddoers, gypsies, etc..



No I'm not and you shouldn't assume that I believe such a thing.

Their would still be police to settle any squabbles after all.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Grids don't need organised, they are grids.
> 
> Grids by definition are organised an structure.



so you expect everyone to just adopt this grid system? how big is each grid? who decides that?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> You're either trolling or really silly, that statement is just down right wrong.
> 
> Not that I'm saying Artists don't believe in liberty, but pirates are generally the most liberal people you will meet



Pirates believe someone should create for them so they can be entertained without paying. That's enslavement of the entertainer. Liberals believe everyone is entitled to things. That means someone has to work for them without getting anything in return. That's slavery.



erocker said:


> Your thinking is based on "if everyone behaves themselves". In principal it's a wonderful thing, I agree.. In reality, your lovely plot of land would be quickly taken by thugs, nogooddoers, gypsies, etc..



And the Mailman.


----------



## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

erocker said:


> Your thinking is based on "if everyone behaves themselves". In principal it's a wonderful thing, I agree.. In reality, your lovely plot of land would be quickly taken by thugs, nogooddoers, gypsies, etc..



You cant make a digital copy of land... if you stole it you would have to physically take it away from someone, the same as pretty much everything except digital packets. (and possibly virginity lol).

perhaps if themailman made physical copies of his artwork and sold it in a gallery he wouldnt have to worry about internet piracy


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> so you expect everyone to just adopt this grid system? how big is each grid? who decides that?



While I'll appreciate you trying to find flaws in my system, gime a break.

Will be based on size of population and expected growth rates to say the least.

Mathematicians would decide as well as public opinion.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Pirates believe someone should create for them so they can be entertained without paying. That's enslavement of the entertainer. Liberals believe everyone is entitled to things. That means someone has to work for them without getting anything in return. That's slavery.
> 
> 
> 
> And the Mailman.




Your logic is something else man  ( Not a compliment by the by) 

Do you honestly believe pirates expect ANYTHING?

I think you'll find they probably don't have expectations.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Pirates believe someone should create for them so they can be entertained without paying. That's enslavement of the entertainer. Liberals believe everyone is entitled to things. That means someone has to work for them without getting anything in return. That's slavery.
> 
> 
> 
> And the Mailman.



That's very closed minded. You automatically declare that all pirates themselves contribute nothing. That is a gross overstatement and most definitely incorrect. With that kind of logic you must be king of the world, hows that working out for ya btw?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 3, 2012)

My G-d why cant people just pay for things they use? Its not a hard concept.


----------



## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> My G-d why cant people just pay for things they use? Its not a hard concept.



I'm not saying that. But Sharing must be a concept largely out of reach from you.


----------



## Maelstrom (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> While I'll appreciate you trying to find flaws in my system, gime a break.
> 
> Will be based on size of population and expected growth rates to say the least.
> 
> Mathematicians would decide as well as public opinion.



Out of curiosity, how would this system be enforced?


----------



## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> While I'll appreciate you trying to find flaws in my system, gime a break.
> 
> Will be based on size of population and expected growth rates to say the least.
> 
> Mathematicians would decide as well as public opinion.



some land is much better than others in terms of growing things and building things. who decides who gets what land?


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> My G-d why cant people just pay for things they use? Its not a hard concept.



Why can't people accept that copying is not harmful at all?

Like I've said many a time, if people could copy real life stuff then they could go ahead and copy ANYTHING I have created and/or own.

They would be stupid not to.



Easy Rhino said:


> some land is much better than others in terms of growing things and building things. who decides who gets what land?



There would be public forums to debate these things.

Their would be a council voted in by people ( and individuals and the whole lot can be voted out at any time given enough people complain) and the people who talk to the council will be elected representatives of geographical locations as well representatives of particular fields of work I.E Agriculture etc.


----------



## twilyth (Feb 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No but anyone caught stealing from said walmart would go to jail wouldnt they. So should pirates.


Kinda sucks that the Pirate Bay Guys probably won't huh? 



> TF reports that because the case originated so long ago, and the defendants' sentences are so light to begin with (all less than a year each), they may end up never stepping foot in a cell. Sweden!


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## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

lets just reiterate here... land cannot be copied


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Why can't people accept that copying is not harmful at all?
> 
> Like I've said many a time, if people could copy real life stuff then they could go ahead and copy ANYTHING I have created and/or own.
> 
> They would be stupid not to.



that's because some things are more valuable than others and the people who create things which are more valuable deserve more in return else they would not create more valuable things. this is basic undeniable human nature. we have thousands of years to show that it never ever fails.


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## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

twilyth said:


> Kinda sucks that the Pirate Bay Guys probably won't huh?



they shoulvde raped someone or stolen a car instead, wouldve gotten less of a sentence


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> that's because some things are more valuable than others and the people who create things which are more valuable deserve more in return else they would not create more valuable things. this is basic undeniable human nature. we have thousands of years to show that it never ever fails.



Sharing like on the web just gives access to more content to everyone of all Social and Economic classes whereby money would restrict access too. 

People creating things of value will still obtain income by those who see the value in it and since it is an art the value of it is relative to begin with. Some people would rather pay more for some art and others less. Since art is relative in nature it doesn't make since to fix a price on it to begin with.


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## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> that's because some things are more valuable than others and the people who create things which are more valuable deserve more in return else they would not create more valuable things. this is basic undeniable human nature. we have thousands of years to show that it never ever fails.



who exactely determines the value of an item... the large record label or movie studio? and if the times that we live in mean that the item no longer has a value arent the large corporations just using this as a reason to carry on making a profit instead of letting technology grow and possibly benefit them.

surely since the days of the VHS cassette when all of the movie studios were shaking in their boots they have made huge profits as people began watching movies at home... remember that new technology allows for different business opportunities (iflix, netflix, lovefilm etc...)... Lets not allow some large corporations police the internet and buy favour with politicians who will censor it

(that will eventually lead to this website and many others not allowing users content or posts)

EDIT: lets remember that many years ago salt was incredibly expensive, it had a purpose (keeping meat fresh, seasoning etc...) nowdays its practically worth nothing.. time moves on unless people make laws to change that and halt progress


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## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

Maelstrom said:


> Out of curiosity, how would this system be enforced?



Men with large sticks will come and mess people up of course!
Just like today!

/sarcasm.

In all seriousness, I am just one person pulling answers out my arse right now, this sort of thing takes more planning and more discussion then what is going on here.

So again I ask for people to give me a break regarding this, perhaps one day I'll do a huge write up and do a whole bunch of math for everyone to enjoy.

But for now my brain is frazzled.

Been at work today after all


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## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Men with large sticks will come and mess people up of course!
> Just like today!
> 
> /sarcasm.
> ...



NO 

hehe... a break from what? we are just mass-debating here


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## pantherx12 (Feb 3, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> NO
> 
> hehe... a break from what? we are just mass-debating here



Asking me how stuff would be done 

Usually huge teams of people deal with questions like that. 

It's the sort of thing I need help with! 


By the by, as I imagine this thread could get locked at some point, I'd like to thank everyone for being civil and actually you know, having a discussion rather than a flame war.

Most insults have been in passing and well frankly barely even insults.

It's nice.


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## twicksisted (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> It's the sort of thing I need help with!



im not helping you mass-debate!


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## Maelstrom (Feb 3, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Men with large sticks will come and mess people up of course!
> Just like today!
> 
> /sarcasm.
> ...



Ah np, like I said I was just curious.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 4, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> who exactely determines the value of an item... the large record label or movie studio? and if the times that we live in mean that the item no longer has a value arent the large corporations just using this as a reason to carry on making a profit instead of letting technology grow and possibly benefit them.
> 
> surely since the days of the VHS cassette when all of the movie studios were shaking in their boots they have made huge profits as people began watching movies at home... remember that new technology allows for different business opportunities (iflix, netflix, lovefilm etc...)... Lets not allow some large corporations police the internet and buy favour with politicians who will censor it
> 
> ...



value is determined by demand. economics 101. demand creates supply and pushes innovation. economics 201. laws do not create supply. laws do not determine demand or value. philosophy 101. people must not teach this stuff anymore.


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## twicksisted (Feb 4, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> value is determined by demand. economics 101. demand creates supply and pushes innovation. economics 201. laws do not create supply. laws do not determine demand or value. philosophy 101. people must not teach this stuff anymore.



Yes thats what "we" are taught in the fantastic education system we are all legally forced into... we are also taught that "legally" printing money to get out a rescession is a fantastic idea and should be encouraged 
If demand meant that there was a supply and money for it then zimbabwe and eitheopia would be fantastic business opportunities. lol... last time i checked it was $1 mill zimbabwe dollars for a loaf of bread but no one can afford it... great business model there!

Anyways if there was such a huge demand for these "essential items" like music and peoples drawings which we cannot live without apparently, then there would be the money for it as you say and the market place to exchange them... unfortunately these items can easily be copied without actually stealing them or physically taking away any property from the other person. Some call it a crime... some say that the medium is outdated and if you dont want your work to be stolen dont leave it out in the open. You wouldnt leave your handywork lying outside your workshop for everyone to take if you were a carpenter or a baker, builder etc.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 4, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Yes thats what "we" are taught in the fantastic education system we are all legally forced into... we are also taught that "legally" printing money to get out a rescession is a fantastic idea and should be encouraged
> If demand meant that there was a supply and money for it then zimbabwe and eitheopia would be fantastic business opportunities. lol... last time i checked it was $1 mill zimbabwe dollars for a loaf of bread but no one can afford it... great business model there!



what? Zimbabwe and Ethiopia are not safe places to do business which is why they remain third world. there is no political stability there. bad comparison. economics 101. 



> Anyways if there was such a huge demand for these "essential items" like music and drawings which we cannot live without, then there would be the money for it as you say and the market place to exchange them... unfortunately these items can easily be copied without actually stealing them or physically taking away any property from the other person. Some call it a crime... some say that the medium is outdated and if you dont want your work to be stolen dont leave it out in the open. You wouldnt leave your handywork lying outside your workshop for everyone to take if you were a carpenter or a baker, builder etc...



there is money for art. are you posting while on drugs? and just because i accidently leave my tools out doesnt justify the theft of them. come on. do better!!


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## blibba (Feb 4, 2012)

erocker said:


> Supply, demand and money. Communism, which is exactly what you are talking about is rather dead. I suppose you could always take up some sort of revolution and have folks join your communistic rebellion against the profiteers... Or just go stand somewhere with the so called "99%"



Wow man. I've not read this whole thread, but you seriously drop in my estimations for that. Are you really taking the piss out of someone for having morals when society doesn't? What exactly is it about having the good fortune to be born with a certain set of talents and into a certain family that makes you deserving of great wealth?

Please tell me I've taken you drastically out of context.


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## twicksisted (Feb 4, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> what? Zimbabwe and Ethiopia are not safe places to do business which is why they remain third world. there is no political stability there. bad comparison. economics 101.
> 
> 
> there is money for art. are you posting while on drugs? and just because i accidently leave my tools out doesnt justify the theft of them. come on. do better!!



You been to zim, or ethiopia, i have (im south african, born in africa). Last time i checked libya, iraq and afganistan were the unsafest places in the world to live yet theres billions being made by large corporations and cartels over there.

If you really want to see political unrest you need to have a look at the fantastically democratic and wonderful USA lol... you wont see it on the news but the occupy movement is still in full swing and god knows what will happen with their elections and new president... if you want to see unrest look there, not africa 

dont kid yourself with this petty arguement of copyright, youre playing into large corps hands nicely, its got nothing to do with helping an artist like themailman with his drawing of tigger or whatever it was.... soon youll be playing the SOPA, PIPA & ACTA tunes all the way till your internet gets cut off and bubba is nailing you from behind gently from your jailcell  for uploading a youtube clip with someones copyrighted music in mistakedly 

If there was money left over to spend on art we wouldnt be having this discussion. We are talking about this because people arent paying for shitty hollywood movies or major record labels bullshit music
If we all had to pay for air since birth we would, then one day if someone found out that we diddnt have to we wouldnt.. its as simple as that. People wont stop making music or drawing... do you rreally think that?


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 4, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> value is determined by demand. economics 101. demand creates supply and pushes innovation. economics 201. laws do not create supply. laws do not determine demand or value. philosophy 101. people must not teach this stuff anymore.



I think there are a few more factors when determining the value of art.




Easy Rhino said:


> there is money for art. are you posting while on drugs? and just because i accidently leave my tools out doesnt justify the theft of them. come on. do better!!


Yes there is money for art, but was art the cause of money or money the cause of art? People will make art regardless of whether money is involved or not. Also your view on piracy remains distorted. You keep saying theft but it isn't like physically taking something at all. I have what you still have.


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## twicksisted (Feb 4, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> laws do not create supply.



So you see no reason for people to bribe a politician then... theres nothing that he could possibly do to profit himself or a large "sponsor".
You also dont see how gaining control over the internet through law could benefit big business... you need to go back to your economics classes as even as flawed as they are, they would show you those basics


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 4, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> You been to zim, or ethiopia, i have (im south african, born in africa). Last time i checked libya, iraq and afganistan were the unsafest places in the world to live yet theres billions being made by large corporations and cartels over there.



you dont have to go to zim or ethiopia to understand economics. they are unsafe so business does not thrive there. iraq and afghanistan are also unsafe and are also poor as dirt. they only reason they have anything at all is because of oil. africa has a lot of oil but it is not used because it is not safe. believe it or not iraq and the entire middle east was once a great place to do business.



> dont kid yourself with this petty arguement of copyright, youre playing into large corps hands nicely, its got nothing to do with helping an artist like themailman with his drawing of tigger or whatever it was.... soon youll be playing the SOPA, PIPA & ACTA tunes all the way till your internet gets cut off and bubba is nailing you from behind gently from your jailcell  for uploading a youtube clip with someones copyrighted music in mistakedly



im not standing up for SOPA/PIPA or any similar legislation. im standing against THEFT. piracy is theft because you are using something you have not paid for and have not been given permission by the owner or creator to use. what's worse, you demand other people pay for these things because they simply would not exist without the profit motive. 



> If there was money left over to spend on art we wouldnt be having this discussion. We are talking about this because people arent paying for shitty hollywood movies or major record labels bullshit music
> If we all had to pay for air since birth we would, then one day if someone found out that we diddnt have to we wouldnt.. its as simple as that. People wont stop making music or drawing... do you rreally think that?



you think only people who lack money steal? people shouldnt pay for shitty hollywood movies or music. but they also shouldnt watch them or listen to them and not pay for them. how is this a complicated matter? i weep for this young generation.


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

There is so much bribing and big money going around on this it isn't funny.  Are you kidding?  Google is going for stock exchange listing,  to show the us government they aren't to mess with,  and here's a few mil to shut up.  Many file sharing services that host copyrighted material are still up,  and nothing.  It's all about who has the money.  That's all this crap is about. Period.  And the large multi-billion dollar industries who want even more,  and are in the pockets of the us politicians.  Everyone wants money,  don't they?


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## twicksisted (Feb 4, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> you dont have to go to zim or ethiopia to understand economics. they are unsafe so business does not thrive there. iraq and afghanistan are also unsafe and are also poor as dirt. they only reason they have anything at all is because of oil. africa has a lot of oil but it is not used because it is not safe. believe it or not iraq and the entire middle east was once a great place to do business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I totally see where you are coming from... i even worked as a label manager for a couple of years for a 2 major record labels ... I defended catching pirates and protecting profits. I have changed my views on things after a lot of thought and understanding. Im not defending theft, im defending personal liberty.

You have to understand when you talk about poor third world countrys that the first world is actually making billions out of them... the people are poor of course, but the major corporations are coining it through raping their natural resources and not putting them back into the countrys. The more instable a region the more profit there is to be made... (or perhaps the more potential profit there is in an inaccesible region, making it unstable will mean easier legal (NATO) access to its profit).

Whats happening here with the copyright smokescreen (read:bullshit) is a theft of liberty... very soon laws made be that affect all of our freedom and we shouldnt let ourselves be fooled by the arguement of copyright on someones crappy MP3 track.

Was there no art or music being successfully sold before the invention of the internet?
Why is art and music so important that it needs to completely revamp the way that the internet is used and take it away from the people to be policed and watched over?


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## silkstone (Feb 4, 2012)

Easy Rhino said:


> no. the people who make the content will stop producing it. that means there will be nothing to steal because the people who are paid to make it will simply stop making it.



This is overly simplifying things. There will always be a demand for creative works, no matter how many people copy it and those people making the creative works will still earn.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Not all work is commissioned. Some is very generic and sold through a service. When someone DLs a sample of my work *and uses it for profit* I get nothing. Only when they pay my distributor do I get a cut. Savvy?
> 
> Now if I can prove someone used my art without paying for it I can sue. But I cannot afford to do that all the time. It happens a LOT. But my distributer can. They are like my pimp.



I bolded the important part. I agree with this to an extent, other people should not *Profit* from your work. The argument is not black and white, there are also people who pirate things not for profit.

And currently, i work my ass off so other people who do very little can profit from it. This will always be the case... My boss is a pirate god damn it! (along with all the CEOs, shareholders, Bankers, etc)



TheMailMan78 said:


> Its the commie education system.



Communism is the opposite of absolute Capitalism. Absolute capitalism (what to US is moving to) puts the money and power into the hands of the very few. Communism stifles creativity and production. Both are just as open to corruption.

Before you say that you are against communism in all forms and only pro-capitalism, take a look at your armed forces or your social security system. Although i guess these could be classes as socialist policies as communism is economic.



Easy Rhino said:


> greedy bastards



I see wut u did there 



pantherx12 said:


> Who decides who earns what?*
> 
> Surely the very act of creating a home and cultivating the land means you have earned it.
> 
> *Rhetorical question obviously, it's banks,government and people who buy up houses and land in order to make profit.



There was an interesting news article here not long ago. A family had a large plot of worthless land allocated to them (on a lease based system) They worked their asses off and made the land fertile and productive. It was then decided to take the land off them as it was near the end of the lease. Needless to say, they came out with shotguns and grenades.



erocker said:


> Supply, demand and money. Communism, which is exactly what you are talking about is rather dead. I suppose you could always take up some sort of revolution and have folks join your communistic rebellion against the profiteers... Or just go stand somewhere with the so called "99%"



Communism is alive and well in the majority of the world. see my above comments.
There has to be a balance, it should not be one or the other.



Easy Rhino said:


> value is determined by demand. economics 101. demand creates supply and pushes innovation. economics 201. laws do not create supply. laws do not determine demand or value. philosophy 101. people must not teach this stuff anymore.



It's fairly easy to create artificial demand and artificially inflate prices, especially if you have a monopoly.



Easy Rhino said:


> you think only people who lack money steal? people shouldnt pay for shitty hollywood movies or music. but they also shouldnt watch them or listen to them and not pay for them. how is this a complicated matter? i weep for this young generation.



And you shouldn't be able to look directly at the queen without being royalty on punishment of having your eyes gouged out.


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

And blaming us poor people,  like me,  for piracy is bullshit.  Most people who pirate actually can afford the stuff.  I'm on a fixed income,  on permanent disablility,  I can't make more money,  but they tell me to get a job.  The people who have the equipment to mass dl and  distribute warez tend to have plenty of money.  It's kind of like script kiddies,  I'll do it because I can.  That's the typical american ideology of the spoilt rich kid,  who dls mp3s like there's no tomorrow,  but that's somehow all right.  I have one sim I play right now,  and you know what,  that's good enough!  Because all of the garbage being made right now is not worth the effort.  We all know it.  Why don't we do something about it?  Why should anyone pay for garbage?  I won't dl it,  I guarantee it.  I'm poor and proud of it.  Eat the rich.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

Silkstone America hasn't been anywhere near a absolute capitalism since before the first world war. We are heading even farther from it now. What we are becoming are corporatists. Capitalism is vastly superior to communism. Just look at any communist nation to see that. If we were going back to our Capitalism roots we wouldnt be doing bailouts.

FYI Social Security is the biggest socialist scam the US government ever came up with. Its a horrible system that should be scrapped. Also there are only 5 communist nations left in the world. I wouldn't call that the "majority". I would call that a failing ideology.


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## silkstone (Feb 4, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Silkstone America hasn't been anywhere near a absolute capitalism since before the first world war. We are heading even farther from it now. What we are becoming are corporatists. Capitalism is vastly superior to communism. Just look at any communist nation to see that. If we were going back to our Capitalism roots we wouldnt be doing bailouts.
> 
> FYI Social Security is the biggest socialist scam the US government ever came up with. Its a horrible system that should be scrapped. Also there are only 5 communist nations left in the world. I wouldn't call that the "majority". I would call that a failing ideology.



No nations ever actually achieved communism. The closest anyone came was the khmer rouge, and we all know how badly that turned out. The only remaining comunost country I can think of is north korea and we can also see how that is going for it's people. All other countries have communist/socialist policies to some extent.

While the social security system may be a bad thing. How about the armed forces, education or basic medical care. Shoyld those be turned over to corporations?

All I am saying is there needs to be balance. The big media corporations should not have all of the control over distribution just like a government should not have all the conteol over it's people. Today, the large media interest groups are extremely powerful.


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

The fact of the matter is,  it's the spoilt rich kids of the us that made this happen.  That's the funny part!  They won't admit it,  but the americans did this to us,  and now the world has to pay for it.  Amazing.  I'm sorry,  but it's just so dam stupid.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> The fact of the matter is,  it's the spoilt rich kids of the us that made this happen.  That's the funny part!  They won't admit it,  but the americans did this to us,  and now the world has to pay for it.  Amazing.  I'm sorry,  but it's just so dam stupid.



Americans didn't do anything to you. Your government did.


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## twilyth (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> The fact of the matter is,  it's the spoilt rich kids of the us that made this happen.  That's the funny part!  They won't admit it,  but the americans did this to us,  and now the world has to pay for it.  Amazing.  I'm sorry,  but it's just so dam stupid.



There's probably some truth to that, but not in the sense that Americans are evil.  We just happened to be on the leading edge.  But I learned about the internet before the web existed.  That's hard to imagine now, but there was such a time.  People were uploading binaries (media, software, etc) to usenet and it just amazed me.  We're talking about software packages that could cost thousands of dollars.  And no one made a peep about it.  But dl'ing binaries could be a tortuous process and involved many individual steps with the newreaders available at the time.  As a result, it was probably a very small community that even knew about these things.  However the profit potential was obvious.

Even so, distribution still involved marketing and even advertising.  So either you were a geek and could access this stuff on your own (we won't get into issues like retention rates) or you had to have access to a distributor who would get what you wanted.  Of course in the latter case, that made them pretty easy to bust.  So the natural evolution was to make a one click solution.

And even then, the problem wasn't huge since most people were on dial-up.  In fact I sometimes wonder if the bloatware of the 90's wasn't a roundabout way of discouraging this practice.  But once a big chunk of the population had broadband . . . well, then it was just a feeding frenzy.


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

If you want to help fight this,  go to http://www.peerblock.com/releases  and at the bottom dl peerblock.  Then install it,  and go to http://www.iblocklist.com/lists.php  and add level1 and Primary Threats.  Then let it run and see what us crap is scanning you.  I am collecting ap2p scanners,  and am going to send cease and desist letters to all of them.  I am just surfing the dam internet,  why are they port pounding me?  Did I mention I make sure not to dl illegal content?  I am willing to take this to a legal matter,  and have others join me.  I don't need american companies port pounding me,  with the ap2p moniker,  all the time now,  when I'm not doing anything illegal.  This is why I make sure I'm legal,  so I can prove these port poundings are illegal,  and I can press charges against these american isps allowing this shit.  Refuse all media.  Join the Boycott now!  Fight now,  or lose your freedom.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> If you want to help fight this,  go to http://www.peerblock.com/releases  and at the bottom dl peerblock.  Then install it,  and go to http://www.iblocklist.com/lists.php  and add level1 and Primary Threats.  Then let it run and see what us crap is scanning you.  I am collecting ap2p scanners,  and am going to send cease and desist letters to all of them.  I am just surfing the dam internet,  why are they port pounding me?  Did I mention I make sure not to dl illegal content?  I am willing to take this to a legal matter,  and have others join me.  I don't need american companies port pounding me,  with the ap2p moniker,  all the time now,  when I'm not doing anything illegal.  This is why I make sure I'm legal,  so I can prove these port poundings are illegal,  and I can press charges against these american isps allowing this shit.  Refuse all media.  Join the Boycott now!  Fight now,  or lose your freedom.



You should do that. Thats gonna be funny. Report back with results.


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## MilkyWay (Feb 4, 2012)

Social democracy is different to Communism, look at Norway compared to say Cuba. Socialism comes in many forms. Anarchist communism is what pantherx12 is talking about. Im more for a Social market economy rather than a total socialist market by state ownership. A free market is all well but you cant expect a totally fair market forever without some form of independent regulation.

If you will for example: your country extradites you for copyright infringement even though that's not illegal in your country, your country is partially at fault because it could have told the USA to go fuck itself and stay out of its internal matters. Currently a US company would have to bring about legal proceeding in the other nation or get the person extradited. If im in the US and break a law then im liable doesn't matter where i am originally from.

ACTA would change all that. Then i would literally be able to have legal proceedings brought about on me for things that may not even be illegal in my county.

If i make a backup or download a backup of a program this is legal in the UK, its fair use, literally the same as if i was to send someone a page of a copyrighted article, loan a DVD to someone, use footage for journalistic purposes ah but after ACTA it would be illegal to share such material. ACTA would have 3rd party liability for ISPs, ISPs will be forced to monitor and censor its users, among other things.


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

And why shouldn't I do that MailMan?  Is your government so dam superior,  and oblivious to human civil rights?  I don't want your dam isps port hammering me for no reason.  You americans like to sue right?  Why shouldn't I?  Come on....  I've been waiting for this debate....


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

Didn't think so...


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> And why shouldn't I do that MailMan?  Is your government so dam superior,  and oblivious to human civil rights?  I don't want your dam isps port hammering me for no reason.  You americans like to sue right?  Why shouldn't I?  Come on....  I've been waiting for this debate....



So much misplaced anger. Put on your big boy pants and yell at your own government for letting the evil Americans do that to you. Or are you afraid of your own government?

Or sue the Americans in your own court and watch them wipe their ass with the verdict because your own government is in bed with the Americans.

So yeah rage out and sue. Be sure to post back with all your awesome results. lol



johnspack said:


> Didn't think so...



Yeah I'm pretty sure you didn't think.


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## de.das.dude (Feb 4, 2012)

great how am i to know if a game is worth buying now?


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## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

It's not what my goverment did,  it's all your goverment's doing.  We have 1/10 of the population,  and 1\10 of the the money,  and your country owns half of our major industry.  I don't think we have much frikkin say in it.  That's why we have to underground it.  Kill it from the underground.  I know you don't know what that means,  but europeans probably do.  It's all a matter of time.  Take out your multi-billion dollar media industry,  which just pollutes the world,  and things will be much better.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> It's not what my goverment did,  it's all your goverment's doing.  We have 1/10 of the population,  and 1\10 of the the money,  and your country owns half of our major industry.  I don't think we have much frikkin say in it.  That's why we have to underground it.  Kill it from the underground.  I know you don't know what that means,  but europeans probably do.  It's all a matter of time.  Take out your multi-billion dollar media industry,  which just pollutes the world,  and things will be much better.



Ah so what you are saying is your government is run by pussies that cannot stand up to America. Funny Cuba does all the time and they are a tiny island nation with WAY less money. 

Basically from what I just read you are making excuses for your government not having a backbone. America is just another nation. Take responsibility FOR YOURSELF and tell YOUR leaders to lead. Stop blaming the next man for your short comings.

OR you can accept the fact your own elected government is in bed with the US. But that would mean you would have only yourselves to blame. That would mean some responsibility has to be taken ON YOU. Naaaaa lets just blame the boogie man next door. That's an easier pill to swallow.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Feb 4, 2012)

man i read 100 posts in and just said fuck it, i feel everyone here needs to smoke green chill out and hold hands like hippies, after that calming moment you can all grab a blunt object to bludgeon each other with untill your worn out.

essentially after 30 posts it was all recurring rhetoric altho it wasnt a total loss... looks like Mailman is having a hell of a good time  oh and gary to


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> man i read 100 posts in and just said fuck it, i feel everyone here needs to smoke green chill out and hold hands like hippies, after that calming moment you can all grab a blunt object to bludgeon each other with untill your worn out.
> 
> essentially after 30 posts it was all recurring rhetoric altho it wasnt a total loss... looks like Mailman is having a hell of a good time  oh and gary to



I dunno why people rage so much when they get hit with a torpedo of truth.


----------



## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

Did you not read?  Your country has billions invested into our country.  We only own half of the major industry here in our own country.  Your country has 10x as many people and money to do it.  You can't understand that dynamic?   Of course your goverment owns ours,  duhhhhh...


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> Did you not read?  Your country has billions invested into our country.  We only own half of the major industry here in our own country.  Your country has 10x as many people and money to do it.  You can't understand that dynamic?   Of course your goverment owns ours,  duhhhhh...



So why are you mad at us? Its your government you should be focused on. Not ours.

Anyway good luck on your "lawsuit".


----------



## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

Sure as hell doesn't mean we'll agree to this internet crap though....  we did burn down your whitehouse once,  maybe have to do it again?

Edit:  it's american law doing this,  so that's what we will be fighting.  Simple,  duh.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> Sure as hell doesn't mean we'll agree to this internet crap though....  we did burn down your whitehouse once,  maybe have to do it again?
> 
> Edit:  it's american law doing this,  so that's what we will be fighting.  Simple,  duh.



Oh sure burning down our Whitehouse will fix your problems in Canada. G-d forbid you take any personal responsibility.

That's right.....an American law. NOT A CANADIAN LAW. But YOUR Government ALLOWS IT. Grow a pair and burn down your igloo or whatever it is.


----------



## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

I'd be there with a torch!  If that's what it takes to wake you up!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> I'd be there with a torch!  If that's what it takes to wake you up!



Burning down your own capital would be far more effective.


----------



## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

Now that is atypical of an american.
Bingo.......


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> Now that is atypical of an american.
> Bingo.......



Yeah taking responsibility for our own actions? Yup. Atypical of an American. Some people should take notes.


----------



## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

Yeah,  taking away countries,  taking away freedoms on the internet,  yes,  of course,  always taking.
Edit:  nice job,  by the way!  I'm impressed!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> Yeah,  taking away countries,  taking away freedoms on the internet,  yes,  of course,  alway taking.
> Edit:  nice job,  by the way!  I'm impressed!



Your government letting them take is the problem.

Look at it this way.
A man has a beautiful wife. One day his neighbor comes over and says "I wanna bang your wife" and all the man has to say is "No" and the neighbor cant do anything. But instead the man says "sure" and now his wife gets mad at the neighbor and not her husband? Doesnt make sense does it? Thats exactly what you are doing.

Just in case you didnt get that.....

Man=Canadian Government.
Neighbor=US Government.
Wife=Canadian people.


----------



## johnspack (Feb 4, 2012)

10x the money,  10x the population,  50% of our major industry,  did I mention that?  Your gov controls ours.  Period.  It's shit,  but it's fact.  If we want to think for ourselves,  we have to go against our government,  because it's stupid.  Period.  It's time to rethink politics.  It's time to get f**cking militant if we want to be free.  It's just all so stupid.  At 50,  I shouldn't have to do this.  But I do.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

johnspack said:


> 10x the money,  10x the population,  50% of our major industry,  did I mention that?  Your gov controls ours.  Period.  It's shit,  but it's fact.  If we want to think for ourselves,  we have to go against our government,  because it's stupid.  Period.  It's time to rethink politics.  It's time to get f**cking militant if we want to be free.  It's just all so stupid.  At 50,  I shouldn't have to do this.  But I do.



Take care yo!


----------



## de.das.dude (Feb 4, 2012)

kids kids, calm down.


----------



## F1reFly (Feb 4, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I dunno why people rage so much when they get hit with a torpedo of truth.



truth hurts feelings.


----------



## blibba (Feb 4, 2012)

F1reFly said:


> truth hurts feelings.



Then this thread is mostly Prozac.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 4, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ah so what you are saying is your government is run by pussies that cannot stand up to America. Funny Cuba does all the time and they are a tiny island nation with WAY less money.
> 
> Basically from what I just read you are making excuses for your government not having a backbone. America is just another nation. Take responsibility FOR YOURSELF and tell YOUR leaders to lead. Stop blaming the next man for your short comings.
> 
> OR you can accept the fact your own elected government is in bed with the US. But that would mean you would have only yourselves to blame. That would mean some responsibility has to be taken ON YOU. Naaaaa lets just blame the boogie man next door. That's an easier pill to swallow.



Wow you are so full of crap, it must be coming out your ears. Seriously, you are that moronic AND misinformed? How?

The thing is, people like you are going to wake up one day in the totalitarian state of america and then all your chest pounding about how your government is so fucking strong will amount to what?

Oh yeah, they will cull people like you. When you get to the euthanasia chamber, remember: WE TOLD YOU SO.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Wow you are so full of crap, it must be coming out your ears. Seriously, you are that moronic AND misinformed? How?
> 
> The thing is, people like you are going to wake up one day in the totalitarian state of america and then all your chest pounding about how your government is so fucking strong will amount to what?
> 
> Oh yeah, they will cull people like you. When you get to the euthanasia chamber, remember: WE TOLD YOU SO.



No. Because I know exactly what my government is. I know where they are going. But the difference between you and me is I am not blaming anyone else. I know if I want to change the course I have to make changes in MY OWN government. Not blame someone else for my problems. Its called having personal responsibility. Its time for all the American haters to grow a pair and look at your own government. If your own government will not stand up to the US then its YOUR PROBLEM.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 4, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No. Because I know exactly what my government is. I know where they are going. But the difference between you and me is I am not blaming anyone else. I know if I want to change the course I have to make changes in MY OWN government. Not blame someone else for my problems. Its called having personal responsibility. Its time for all the American haters to grow a pair and look at your own government. If your own government will not stand up to the US then its YOUR PROBLEM.



I don't see why you state I don't take responsibility for my shit, coz I do. But it's YOUR government who is laying waste to the world using YOUR military. Not mine. So, let's see you take responsibility for that.

Oh and if Iran, China, North Korea and Russia decide to REALLY stand up to YOUR GOVERNMENT and its military and starts nuking the US, that will really be better? Ya think? For whom?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 4, 2012)

Horrux said:


> I don't see why you state I don't take responsibility for my shit, coz I do. But it's YOUR government who is laying waste to the world using YOUR military. Not mine. So, let's see you take responsibility for that.
> 
> Oh and if Iran, China, North Korea and Russia decide to REALLY stand up to YOUR GOVERNMENT and its military and starts nuking the US, that will really be better? Ya think? For whom?



Then tell your government to wage war on the US. Stand up and fight the "good fight". No? Then stop bitchin' and mind your own business and stop blaming other people for your own problems.

Do you really think the US could do what its doing without other governments giving it the ok? I mean really? If the US is causing an issue in YOUR NATION then you need to take it up with YOUR GOVERNMENT.

Here Ill just quote myself....



TheMailMan78 said:


> Your government letting them take is the problem.
> 
> Look at it this way.
> A man has a beautiful wife. One day his neighbor comes over and says "I wanna bang your wife" and all the man has to say is "No" and the neighbor cant do anything. But instead the man says "sure" and now his wife gets mad at the neighbor and not her husband? Doesnt make sense does it? Thats exactly what you are doing.
> ...


----------



## Horrux (Feb 4, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then tell your government to wage war on the US. Stand up and fight the "good fight". No? Then stop bitchin' and mind your own business and stop blaming other people for your own problems.
> 
> Do you really think the US could do what its doing without other governments giving it the ok? I mean really? If the US is causing an issue in YOUR NATION then you need to take it up with YOUR GOVERNMENT.
> 
> Here Ill just quote myself....



The US causes problems everywhere, because the US government isn't the US government. If you know what it is, then you know that at the very least. And knowing that, you should know, and obviously you don't, which makes you a lot more ignorant than you pass yourself off as being, that no single government, and even not all of them together, are to blame. They are infected with a "worldwide conspiracy"  <--  Quoting JFK here, that aims to destroy liberty and joy of life EVERYWHERE. If you want, I'll post up the youtube of his speech.

EDIT: Here it is... 







Small quotes:
*"...and there is very great danger that an announced need for increased security will be ceased upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the limits of official censorship and concealment..."

"We are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covet means for expanding its sphere of influence. On infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources iin the building of a thightly knit, highly efficient machine, that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined, its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."*


It has nothing to do with YOUR or MY government. It has to do with GOVERNMENTS (all of them) being turned into engines of totalitarianism by powers outside of all governments. And the US Military is first and foremost in wrecking the world. Just because it's good at it. And it's good at it because it was built up by those who control the governments. Yes, I mean pretty much all of them. 

Given your great ignorance, you probably don't know that Muammar Gaddafi, for one, is a humanitarian hero of saintly proportions. You are probably moronic enough that you think he was some kind of bad guy. He was a VERY GOOD guy, and that's why they killed him. Yes, YOUR government was involved, but it was only the tool of the deed. And now that the Lybians are "liberated" from their national hero, they can get a taste of "freedom" western-style: debt, unhappiness, slavery.

War cannot be a solution. Just mentioning it shows how totally er... "misguided" (to use an extreme euphemism) you are.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Feb 4, 2012)

Mailman is pretty much saying that other countries need to grow some balls and tell America to fuck off.

I agree with him.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Feb 5, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> Mailman is pretty much saying that other countries need to grow some balls and tell America to fuck off.
> 
> I agree with him.



Relax, small countries like to be under US influence, but bigger ones like China, India, Taiwan, Japan, Brazil or Russia are already keeping US in a short leash. Just look at the debt US have to those countries, and you start realizing that the Greek's debt is a joke compared to that.


----------



## SaiZo (Feb 5, 2012)

They people who 'created' internet never saw this coming.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 6, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> Mailman is pretty much saying that other countries need to grow some balls and tell America to fuck off.
> 
> I agree with him.


You are completely clueless. But nice try.


Updated post above, for you all to read.

 - Do you think JFK was completely out of his mind?  If not, then this is no conspiracy THEORY, it's fo realz yo.

 - Do you think such a WORLDWIDE, MONOLITHIC AND RUTHLESS conspiracy, with truly VAST RESOURCES went away just like that? Or maybe are they only MORE infiltrated everywhere?


----------



## Horrux (Feb 9, 2012)

Bump.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2012)

Horrux said:


> You are completely clueless. But nice try.
> 
> 
> Updated post above, for you all to read.
> ...



He was talking about communist "threat". And yes JFK was an idiot.

Its in the context of the times.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 9, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> He was talking about communist "threat". And yes JFK was an idiot.
> 
> Its in the context of the times.



JFK also had many affairs with young women *Unrelated*


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2012)

brandonwh64 said:


> JFK also had many affairs with young women *Unrelated*



Well thats off topic but honestly who can blame him for that?


----------



## erocker (Feb 9, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> He was talking about communist "threat". And yes JFK was an idiot.
> 
> Its in the context of the times.



An idiot that spoke the truth and he was silenced. Killed.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Feb 9, 2012)

silkstone said:


> EDIt - I'm pretty sure that Chinese and maybe Indian content is pirated to a far greater extent than American








U BAI DVD!!! THREE FOR WUN DULLAH!!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2012)

erocker said:


> An idiot that spoke the truth and he was silenced. Killed.



Bah I don't wanna debate that with you on here. Drunk on TS is much better.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 9, 2012)

FreedomEclipse said:


> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ntI-vHDQL...d+DVD+Wholesale+Markets+sun+news+network.jpeg
> U BAI DVD!!! THREE FOR WUN DULLAH!!



Reminds me of Iraq...


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Feb 9, 2012)

brandonwh64 said:


> Reminds me of Iraq...



Lol it used to be like this in Hong Kong too, but the police and local athorities have really put their foot down on piracy.

there used to be hundreds of people selling pirate dvds in the streets and also in shops in computer centers. places like those have been shutdown, and selling pirate dvds has turned into anything short of a WWII bombing run with a B52s heading directly towards a line of flack cannons - people work in teams now. there are people to keep an eye out for cops. and people to push a cart thats constantly rolling and another guy to take peoples money.

Most of them still end up caught anyway as everytime i go back theres lesser and lesser of these people or they are just real smart about where and when they sell stuff


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 9, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Bump.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 9, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> He was talking about communist "threat". And yes JFK was an idiot.
> 
> Its in the context of the times.



LOL. Since when the communist were a hidden, monolithic conspiracy? It was just another political system.


----------



## Horrux (Feb 9, 2012)

erocker said:


> an idiot that spoke the truth and he was silenced. Killed.



exactly.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2012)

Horrux said:


> LOL. Since when the communist were a hidden, monolithic conspiracy? It was just another political system.



You can twist almost any speech in history to fit an ideology. If you know ANYTHING about historical context you would know exactly what he was talking about.

For one he was talking to the American Newspaper Publishers Association. He was playing up the the freedom of speach crowd on their home turf and this was near the era of when the government had a history of cover-ups backed by the good old boy network in the media and Washington. It honestly didn't come to light until watergate. Its also very much played up to the fear of communist oppression of the press and the importance of it always being true and open.


Honestly here is the WHOLE speech......Not just cherry picked BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E58u3_8oHsY&feature=related


----------



## Horrux (Feb 9, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You can twist almost any speech in history to fit an ideology. If you know ANYTHING about historical context you would know exactly what he was talking about.
> 
> For one he was talking to the American Newspaper Publishers Association. He was playing up the the freedom of speach crowd on their home turf and this was near the era of when the government had a history of cover-ups backed by the good old boy network in the media and Washington. It honestly didn't come to light until watergate. Its also very much played up to the fear of communist oppression of the press and the importance of it always being true and open.
> 
> ...



Yes, I am familiar with that viewpoint. You rehash the same feebleminded crap as the rest of the sheeple. Don't worry about me, I know about the historical context. 

The fact is, Communism was never a conspiracy. 

Do you have any idea what that word means? I guess not, from what you are writing. A conspiracy is, by definition something SECRET AND HIDDEN. The communist nations were pretty open about it if I recall something. YOU twist his words to mean something they don't. Communism might have been, at the time, the OBVIOUS opposing force, but does it mean he speaks of only the most OBVIOUS part of something? Or perhaps feebleminded people have trouble imagining that things might have been A WEE BIT MORE COMPLEX than the ever-popular, low-brow, us VS them shit that's been rammed down everyone's throats?


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 9, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Yes, I am familiar with that viewpoint. You rehash the same feebleminded crap as the rest of the sheeple. Don't worry about me, I know about the historical context.
> 
> The fact is, Communism was never a conspiracy.
> 
> Do you have any idea what that word means? I guess not, from what you are writing. A conspiracy is, by definition something SECRET AND HIDDEN. The communist nations were pretty open about it if I recall something. YOU twist his words to mean something they don't. Communism might have been, at the time, the OBVIOUS opposing force, but does it mean he speaks of only the most OBVIOUS part of something? Or perhaps feebleminded people have trouble imagining that things might have been A WEE BIT MORE COMPLEX than the ever-popular, low-brow, us VS them shit that's been rammed down everyone's throats?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2012)

Horrux said:


> Yes, I am familiar with that viewpoint. You rehash the same feebleminded crap as the rest of the sheeple. Don't worry about me, I know about the historical context.
> 
> The fact is, Communism was never a conspiracy.
> 
> Do you have any idea what that word means? I guess not, from what you are writing. A conspiracy is, by definition something SECRET AND HIDDEN. The communist nations were pretty open about it if I recall something. YOU twist his words to mean something they don't. Communism might have been, at the time, the OBVIOUS opposing force, but does it mean he speaks of only the most OBVIOUS part of something? Or perhaps feebleminded people have trouble imagining that things might have been A WEE BIT MORE COMPLEX than the ever-popular, low-brow, us VS them shit that's been rammed down everyone's throats?



Sigh. Here man.....read this and maybe it will open your eyes a little. 

http://www.britannica.com/

He was talking about a communist undermining of the capitalist ideology through the media. Something that communist would have to conspire to and couldn't pull off in the open. JFK was warning journalist to stay vigilant to such acts. I mean its in the very speach you posted! But you gotta listen to the WHOLE THING. He even starts out talking about Marx for F#$K sake.


----------



## twilyth (Feb 9, 2012)

I want to stop checking this thread for the latest posts, b-b-b-but . . . I can't.

I'm so ashamed.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2012)

twilyth said:


> I want to stop checking this thread for the latest posts, b-b-b-but . . . I can't.
> 
> I'm so ashamed.



lol I love to read insane paranoid conspiracies personally. Thats why I keep coming back


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 9, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> lol I love to read insane paranoid conspiracies personally. Thats why I keep coming back


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 9, 2012)

I think before my GOVT continues with this BS and other countries continue letting them the idea of Piracy needs to be re-evaluated.


I believe that most forms of art and other types of Intellectual Properties are simply an extension of something that already exists.
Here is a perfect example






You can use an image to create your own as long as you don't profit from it...
But if you use said image to profit even if changed it *is* Piracy unless you get permission from the original creator.
Example:




This would be Piracy as the Image is clearly a play off of the original.

Where do you stop or start protecting...
The idea is to protect Intellectual Property to make it easier people to continue innovating and creating.

But I think the protections we are offering are stifling the creation and innovation we mean to protect.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> I think before my GOVT continues with this BS and other countries continue letting them the idea of Piracy needs to be re-evaluated.
> 
> 
> I believe that most forms of art and other types of Intellectual Properties are simply an extension of something that already exists.
> ...



But I am the original creator?


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

So you didn't base that off of another very similar image/emblem? as in colored differently? without a TPU logo? and different wording?


----------



## erocker (Feb 10, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> So you didn't base that off of another very similar image/emblem? as in colored differently? without a TPU logo? and different wording?



He did not. Other than the actual words "Techpowerup", that is his original work.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

Did he copyright the image?


----------



## twilyth (Feb 10, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> Did he copyright the image?



I was all ready to jump in here and say 'See, see.  Lawyers suck huh?  Well, who you gonna call now bitch?'

Except I figured it might be nice to have some actual . . . ummm, what do you call it?  Oh, right.  I figured it would be nice to have actual facts first.  When I did a quick search, I was very, very disappointed.

Copyright for artists.


> Question: How Do You Copyright a Painting? Can You Copyright a Painting Idea?
> Answer: As soon as you've created something in a tangible form, you have copyright on it. *If it's still an idea, you can't copyright it*, *but as soon as you've painted it, you have copyright on it *but, importantly, it's the way you've executed the idea that can be copyrighted, not the idea itself. You don't need to register copyright for it to exist. If you've created something for an employer or as work for hire, copyright belongs to them. (Though in the US to sue for copyright infringement, registration makes it less tricky.)
> 
> A good way to make the ownership of copyright clear to anyone who buys a painting from you is to do what artist Karen McConnell does: "I sell most all of my original paintings with a 'Statement of Value' which includes (1) date of sale (2) price paid (3) whether it was purchased framed or unframed and (4) notice that copyright for the work remains with the artist. At the bottom of the form is a place for dated signatures from both myself and the purchaser. I keep a copy, they keep a copy."
> ...


----------



## johnspack (Feb 10, 2012)

My flight sim,  Rise of Flight,  because it's a small company,  and produced an obscure market product,  as in WW1 flight sim,  relies heavily on torrents ect to distrubute its demo version,  and even updates.  I've invested over $150 into this incredible product,  because I believe in it,  and thoroughly enjoy flying it.  If this ap2p crap kills my sim,  I am going to be incredibly pissed.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

twilyth said:


> I was all ready to jump in here and say 'See, see.  Lawyers suck huh?  Well, who you gonna call now bitch?'
> 
> Except I figured it might be nice to have some actual . . . ummm, what do you call it?  Oh, right.  I figured it would be nice to have actual facts first.  When I did a quick search, I was very, very disappointed.
> 
> Copyright for artists.



You could have just asked.....been doing it for over 15 years. 



jmcslob said:


> Did he copyright the image?



I bet you really thought you had me too did ya? lol


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 10, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> So you didn't base that off of another very similar image/emblem? as in colored differently? without a TPU logo? and different wording?



What makes you say that?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> What makes you say that?
> 
> http://www.specialforces.com/image/data/A0/A04039-large1.jpg



A skull with a cap isn't a new idea. But mine is an original painting of that idea. What you posted is irrelevant. I can show you 100 more skulls with cap. Thats like saying music is copyrighted because it has notes it in. I mean you guys are really grabbing at straws now.


Oh and on a side note I draw MUCH BETTER realistic skulls then that.



This is another one of my designs.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> A skull with a cap isn't a new idea. But mine is an original painting of that idea. What you posted is irrelevant. I can show you 100 more skulls with cap. *Thats like saying music is copyrighted because it has notes it in*. I mean you guys are really grabbing at straws now.
> 
> 
> Oh and on a side note I draw MUCH BETTER realistic skulls then that.



That has happened a couple of times, One in particular is Vanilla Ice and Queen with Ice Ice Baby


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

brandonwh64 said:


> That has happened a couple of times, One in particular is Vanilla Ice and Queen with Ice Ice Baby



Oh yeah because it was an EXACT copy. Nothing near original.


----------



## brandonwh64 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Oh yeah because it was an EXACT copy. Nothing near original.



LOL vanilla ice tried to play it off like it has a different sound... BS I just listened to both and it was EXACTLY the same!


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> A skull with a cap isn't a new idea. But mine is an original painting of that idea. What you posted is irrelevant. I can show you 100 more skulls with cap. Thats like saying music is copyrighted because it has notes it in. I mean you guys are really grabbing at straws now.




HOLY SHIT BALLS!

I think that's the first time I've successfully trolled you


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> HOLY SHIT BALLS!
> 
> I think that's the first time I've successfully trolled you



Naaaaa Just wanted to make sure people don't take a troll as truth. I knew what you were doing ya bastid! 

By the way did you like my pirate skull?


----------



## silkstone (Feb 10, 2012)

All art has inspiration. Why shouldn't the person inspiring get paid too? The rest is arbitrary.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

silkstone said:


> All art has inspiration. Why shouldn't the person inspiring get paid too? The rest is arbitrary.



I pay Jack Daniels all the time.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> By the way did you like my pirate skull?



Yeah man, right clicked and saved!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Yeah man, right clicked and saved!



lolololol Thats owned by someone else now. Be careful.


----------



## REAYTH (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> A skull with a cap isn't a new idea. But mine is an original painting of that idea. What you posted is irrelevant. I can show you 100 more skulls with cap. Thats like saying music is copyrighted because it has notes it in. I mean you guys are really grabbing at straws now.
> 
> 
> Oh and on a side note I draw MUCH BETTER realistic skulls then that.
> ...



Im sorry was there a difference between the 2 or did i miss something??


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## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You could have just asked.....been doing it for over 15 years.
> 
> 
> 
> I bet you really thought you had me too did ya? lol



No...I'm not trying to get you at anything...I'm trying to point out how ridiculous the laws regarding IP is...It's not geared toward the original artist nor the consumer...it seems to be geared towards CORPs...


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## twicksisted (Feb 11, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> lolololol Thats owned by someone else now. Be careful.



Ok, seriously now… enough with the whole “I’m a massive victim of internet piracy with my drawings”… 

You draw some pictures that are only perhaps valuable for a specific useage that the average person on the street would never actually pay for…. Movies and music albums on the other hand have an actual value if packaged correctly for the average joe on the street and are catered for them specifically.

If you want to sell your artwork to the average person on the street you need to put them in a frame and sell them as physical copies somewhere and stop bitching that you have uploaded it to the internets and someone has saved it to their hardrive.

I don’t mean to be rude but a couple of drawings in paintshop pro or photoshop is a very specific item and only commercially viable to some entity who wants to perhaps use it for their specific business useage as a logo or advert, banner etc…(or they wouldn’t need to pay for it in the first place and just draw it themselves).

If you have been specifically commissioned to draw something by a person or company, then you draw it, give it to them & get paid, simple…. After that it belongs to that company as you sold it and if someone else pirates it it has nothing to do with you. 

What I think is more likely here is that there’s probably not a whole bunch of companies lining up around each other to commission your artwork and you are just drawing a bunch of stuff, uploading it to some image stock library or aggregator in the hope that some company wants to use your picture on their website or advertising campaign and then pay you lots of money for it. If that’s the case and any of your artwork actually gets used for anything profitable then the image library or aggregator would seek the funds from that entity by threatening them with a lawsuit or similar action.

Actually if that is the case and the average joe on the street wants to right click and save as on your pics then you should feel good about that and encourage it, thats how you get a market and reach people… why should they pay for it if they not going to do anything except look at it? You think you are Picasso… youd need to die first, wait for a hundred years and have art worthy of that status im afraid 

So this brings me back to the point… how is this damaging you so intensely that you feel as enraged by the whole internet piracy thing as you appear to be… or is it a bit of ego tripping telling us about you  fantastic ability and how much money you are potentially missing you because large corporations around the globe are pirating your works and using them in large advertising campaigns?



EDIT: wow this appeared to be a massive flame on you personally... i apologise, it wasnt a personal attack as much as a bullshit splicer... i donty like bullshit much ... sorry


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## F1reFly (Feb 12, 2012)

if i made my own digital image/logo with thoughts of selling or caring about my copyrights...i sure as heck wouldnt up the full size version of it. just a low res thumbnail on a website with right click disabled or something.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 12, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Ok, seriously now… enough with the whole “I’m a massive victim of internet piracy with my drawings”…
> 
> You draw some pictures that are only perhaps valuable for a specific useage that the average person on the street would never actually pay for…. Movies and music albums on the other hand have an actual value if packaged correctly for the average joe on the street and are catered for them specifically.
> 
> ...



Oh I didn't take it personal. You don't know what I do for a living and are basing all of your theories off of a few dated jpegs. I can't be mad at the fact your ignorant of a situation or how an industry works in the slightest sense. You don't work in it. You couldn't know. Like most other people who support theft and make excuses you are trying to justify a position you know for a fact is wrong by belittling someone who exposes you. Someone it does effect. I agree. I don't like bullshit anymore then you do.

Edit: Also its not an ego when I can back it up. I bet most people on this forum has worn my art or purchased something with my designs on it in the past.



F1reFly said:


> if i made my own digital image/logo with thoughts of selling or caring about my copyrights...i sure as heck wouldnt up the full size version of it. just a low res thumbnail on a website with right click disabled or something.



That art has been bought and paid for. I have permission from the owner to display it as I'm the creator. If someone uses it they have to face the corporation not me.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 12, 2012)

i think your too much on one side their MM, I do in all honesty buy a lot of games ,this is easy to check as my id is allways the same and steams easy to see, yeh some have more, but ive a dvd rack full of original old hardcopy games too and i buy on a monthly basis what i fancy that month, but some games that have no demo out and are not my cup of tea i may try before i buy , i dont shed a tear since ive 5 games that wont start at the min due to Being original (yet to sort via email Again) or i may have to crack them, and if i dont buy it i dont play past a quick go hr tops

i prirate nothing ,sell or give to no one and i dont art, writing or style copy anyone or anything,

it could be argued that some of the news on here was grabbed off other sites, a form of piracy, im just happy their here to read



jmcslob said:


> But I think the protections we are offering are stifling the creation and innovation we mean to protect.



a good argument in a way, imagine the inovations that arnt being made due to closed doors and corporate secrecy, i work for a mass spec company making instruments for science and i cant help but ponder how fast the cutting edge would move on if all coóperated


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