# Caselabs Returns



## ThaiTaffy (Oct 3, 2021)

So according to gamers nexus  this morning Caselabs has been purchased by a new owner and will restart production of the original designs.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 3, 2021)

Caught me a bit too late, now a little too attached to my new ATX board   

But I've always wanted to have either a Mercury S3 or a Nova X2M, so if next/next-next gen AMD or Intel has good ITX boards, and CL's new owner succeeds, the dream might be in reach again! Watercooling in the Cerb X carries too many compromises right now, a Caselabs would be perfect.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 3, 2021)

The new owner seems to be committed to carrying on Caselabs quality, modularity and aesthetics with the current cases and any future designs. The sma8 was by far the best case I've had the privilege of working with, if they manage to get through the legal rubbish that's left over from Thermaltake's  destruction of name with enthusiast's I will 100% support them and purchase a case no matter how big it is.


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## GamerGuy (Oct 3, 2021)

I'm using a Caselabs Magnum M8 for my 2nd rig, and have a spare Caselabs mATX case, though that sucker is almost as big as the M8 when both parts are attached together.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 3, 2021)

GamerGuy said:


> I'm using a Caselabs Magnum M8 for my 2nd rig, and have a spare Caselabs mATX case, though that sucker is almost as big as the M8 when both parts are attached together.


Haha I've moved on to sffpc's now and the thought of going back to a big case seems impossible but I would make an exception for Caselabs.


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## maxfly (Oct 3, 2021)

Oh man that would be badass if they can pull it off! I am so so tired of the ho hum crap that we've been inundated with for the last 5 years.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 3, 2021)

Nice, probably the best in PC cases. Only Lian Li has ever impressed me with quality but not so much with the O11


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## claes (Oct 3, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> View attachment 219320


What case is that?


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## Sithaer (Oct 4, 2021)

Maybe I will be the first here to admit but I have no idea what Caselabs is.  
After doing some research I still can't recall ever seeing their cases being sold in my country so probably thats why.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 4, 2021)

claes said:


> What case is that?



I think that's just OP's own case. zzaw b3 or something. Must have attached it by accident, nothing to do with caselabs



Sithaer said:


> Maybe I will be the first here to admit but I have no idea what Caselabs is.
> After doing some research I still can't recall ever seeing their cases being sold in my country so probably thats why.



Large, heavy, extremely high quality and very expensive cases. Thermaltake ripped off CL Mercury line with their Core X line. I guess the Core X line was the only way to get that layout after caselabs went down.

They would be coming back to a different market though. Back then NCASE M1 and DAN-A4 didn't yet exist, so CL 2.5mm powder coated alu was all the rage. Nowadays plenty of cases come with 1.5-3mm alu.

The only reason I didn't get an S3 back then was because I was flying off to college and got into the SFF game. And ended up flying all over with the PC for the next two years. If that wasn't the case I was ready to go to a bargain basement H61 ITX board just to accommodate the S3.

I remember my personal favourite build of all time was a hardtube build that someone did in a white S5 over on OCN. I'll have to charge up my ancient iPad Mini just to find that picture

Ah, found it, by snef on OCN, it was an S3. There's a black one as well with an ASRock board and white coolant, but I can't find it.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 7, 2021)

Wasnt there a front page news article or forum post about caselabs coming back before?

Found it. Some thought it was a hoax.









						Seemingly Fake Twitter Account Claims the Return of 3dfx Interactive
					

Nostalgia is perhaps the most present feeling among many gamers across the globe, and someone is seemingly playing with ours as there is a Twitter account claiming the return of a company that has been dead for 20 years. 3dfx Interactive, once a giant in the graphics card industry, is allegedly...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Splinterdog (Oct 8, 2021)

Sithaer said:


> Maybe I will be the first here to admit but I have no idea what Caselabs is.
> After doing some research I still can't recall ever seeing their cases being sold in my country so probably thats why.


Me too!








						CaseLabs' Popular Magnum SMA8 Case Undergoes Transformation
					

Premium custom PC case maker CaseLabs announced today a new revision to the Magnum SMA8 case which is easily the company's most popular and best-selling case. The original Magnum SMA8 was released two years ago, and it has become the preferred case for many water-cooling aficionados. The Magnum...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Operandi (Oct 8, 2021)

I was about to ask if CaseLabs ever made any sane sized cases then saw the X2M, dosn't seem like many people took it up though based on Google results.  It looks pretty nice though a maybe bit too understated, that and the power button and port location are terrible.  Hopefully they do have more in plans for _normal_ sized cases though, I'm not interested in huge monstrosity of a case.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 8, 2021)

Operandi said:


> I was about to ask if CaseLabs ever made any sane sized cases then saw the X2M, dosn't seem like many people took it up though based on Google results.  It looks pretty nice though a maybe bit too understated, that and the power button and port location are terrible.  Hopefully they do have more in plans for _normal_ sized cases though, I'm not interested in huge monstrosity of a case.



They're not in the business of making normal sized cases for normal builds. The X2M and S3 are both positively cavernous for what they are - they fit only ITX boards and both are like 38L. The X2M needs to fit those 3.5" cages as a NAS case, although when not configured as one it's still very much a traditional Caselabs case.

An NR200 or NCASE will fit dual rads at less than half the size, more like 1/3 for the NCASE (13L and 18L).

They do make the Bullet line which was their newest and much more normal in terms of size, and basically an enclosed testbench in terms of layout. A BH2 still has a competitive amount of watercooling utility (2 x 240) compared to an S3 or X2M, S3 can't fit more rads without a pedestal. M-oll says that he's still waiting on receipt of the blueprints but I'd be surprised if he isn't able to bring back most of the original lineups including the Bullet.


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## Operandi (Oct 8, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> They're not in the business of making normal sized cases for normal builds.


Which says something about their business model I think.  I mean they should keep making those but they are not what most people need or even want.

Ford and Audi don't make much if any money selling GTs and R8s but they help the brand sell plenty of Focus RSs and Audi S4s.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 8, 2021)

Operandi said:


> Which says something about their business model I think.  I mean they should keep making those but they are not what most people need or even want.
> 
> Ford and Audi don't make much if any money selling GTs and R8s but they help the brand sell plenty of Focus RSs and Audi S4s.



I don't think original Caselabs even relied on consumer sales for revenue. Didn't they go under because they lost a big contract? I have a feeling Sliger was the same at least at the beginning. M-oll seems adamant about maintaining the caselabs philosophy going forward, which doesn't seem to be compatible with "diversifying" by making normie cases that cheap out on materials and build quality.

All caselabs cases are basically made to the same standard. A case with a normal layout and size wouldn't save them any money in production if it's made to that same standard. iirc their cases always had like a 4-8 week lead time back in the day, they aren't about that high volume sales

Anywho, if it's not up your alley, it's not up your alley and that's fine. It's always been an extremely niche part of the market. It's just easy to forget that now, since cases like the NCASE and NR200 DAN-A4 helped make watercooling in general a lot more accessible.


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## Operandi (Oct 8, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I don't think original Caselabs even relied on consumer sales for revenue. Didn't they go under because they lost a big contract? I have a feeling Sliger was the same at least at the beginning. M-oll seems adamant about maintaining the caselabs philosophy going forward, which doesn't seem to be compatible with "diversifying" by making normie cases that cheap out on materials and build quality.
> 
> All caselabs cases are basically made to the same standard. A case with a normal layout and size wouldn't save them any money in production if it's made to that same standard. iirc their cases always had like a 4-8 week lead time back in the day, they aren't about that high volume sales


I didn't really know much about their history, I only found out about them in 2016 or so and then they were gone.  Apparently they started in 1971 though and I would imagine most of that was industrial contracts but idk what percent of their business was consumer enthusiast stuff vs contract work when they closed up.  I imagine the new incarnation is going to focus more on the consumer space and what I would want to see is normal sized cases.  I have no problem paying a premium for high quality materials and build quality I just don't have a need for huge behemoths.


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## Toothless (Oct 8, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I don't think original Caselabs even relied on consumer sales for revenue. Didn't they go under because they lost a big contract? I have a feeling Sliger was the same at least at the beginning. M-oll seems adamant about maintaining the caselabs philosophy going forward, which doesn't seem to be compatible with "diversifying" by making normie cases that cheap out on materials and build quality.
> 
> All caselabs cases are basically made to the same standard. A case with a normal layout and size wouldn't save them any money in production if it's made to that same standard. iirc their cases always had like a 4-8 week lead time back in the day, they aren't about that high volume sales
> 
> Anywho, if it's not up your alley, it's not up your alley and that's fine. It's always been an extremely niche part of the market. It's just easy to forget that now, since cases like the NCASE and NR200 DAN-A4 helped make watercooling in general a lot more accessible.


They went under thanks to Thermaltake copying their cases and blaming them. Caselabs wasn't big enough to fight off being sued and rip.


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## sneekypeet (Oct 8, 2021)

Toothless said:


> They went under thanks to Thermaltake copying their cases and blaming them. Caselabs wasn't big enough to fight off being sued and rip.



They failed the main company and Caselabs went with it, had nothing to do with Thermaltake 

As a guy who had one, the cases were garbage.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 8, 2021)

sneekypeet said:


> They failed the main company and Caselabs went with it, had nothing to do with Thermaltake
> 
> As a guy who had one, the cases were garbage.



You had a TT Core X5? Or are you referring to CL?

I have a personal rule to judge companies by individual products' merit and not reputation, but TT's past gives me a hard time.


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## ThrashZone (Oct 8, 2021)

Hi,
Thought cost of materials eat up case labs.


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> You had a TT Core X5? Or are you referring to CL?
> 
> I have a personal rule to judge companies by individual products' merit and not reputation, but TT's past gives me a hard time.



I had a huge CL. Thin aluminum without support. I would open the door and it flexed enough the hinge pin came out of its hole. Panels felt like something used to make thunder noises in movies. 

Remember, CL was an off shoot of an aluminum manufacturing company. Whether cost or not making product, one fell, the other went with it.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 9, 2021)

sneekypeet said:


> I had a huge CL. Thin aluminum without support. I would open the door and it flexed enough the hinge pin came out of its hole. Panels felt like something used to make thunder noises in movies.
> 
> Remember, CL was an off shoot of an aluminum manufacturing company. Whether cost or not making product, one fell, the other went with it.



Huge, like STH10/SMA8? Interesting feedback. On a case like that I can definitely see it happening though, Al isn't the stiffest and 2.5mm isn't the thickest available in a case anymore. Actually, I can't imagine Al of any thickness not feeling/sounding like that on a humongous case with a swing-open door   did they ever make it right for you on the door issue?


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Huge, like STH10/SMA8? Interesting feedback. On a case like that I can definitely see it happening though, Al isn't the stiffest and 2.5mm isn't the thickest available in a case anymore. Actually, I can't imagine Al of any thickness not feeling/sounding like that on a humongous case with a swing-open door   did they ever make it right for you on the door issue?



The real issues stem from the design. Panels were not reinforced, just sheets of aluminum. Where if you look at the likes of Lian Li, they may have been behind the curve on feature set, but their cases were on an entirely different level with rigidity and overall feel of getting something that wasn't an afterthought.

As to a fix, I never asked, as when I inverted the layout, a bunch of screws stripped holes in the case, and I ended up giving it to a guy here.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 9, 2021)

They went under due to a few factors, tarrif's eating profit, loss of a large client and being sued by thermal take for copying their own designs. 

As far as build quality I can't see why anyone would not be impressed some panels weren't able exactly rigid but compared to 90% of the market they were like comparing a tank to a Barbie car, personally I'm the type of person that if I'm not happy with a product I simply fix it I know that's not a usual thing to do but it's what I and I'm sure others would do. Their designs were industrial so adding some extruded angle and tapping a few holes never seemed like an issue to me but then I'm the type of person to cut huge holes out of cases for better airflow.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 9, 2021)

I had a TT core X9, not sure if it was a copy of a CL or not, but was pretty well made, material seemed thick, was very sturdy, ut in the end too big for me, was as big as a coffee table lol.


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> They went under due to a few factors, tarrif's eating profit, loss of a large client and being sued by thermal take for copying their own designs.
> 
> As far as build quality I can't see why anyone would not be impressed some panels weren't able exactly rigid but compared to 90% of the market they were like comparing a tank to a Barbie car, personally I'm the type of person that if I'm not happy with a product I simply fix it I know that's not a usual thing to do but it's what I and I'm sure others would do. Their designs were industrial so adding some extruded angle and tapping a few holes never seemed like an issue to me but then I'm the type of person to cut huge holes out of cases for better airflow.View attachment 220088



I will say again. AFAIK Thermaltake never had any litigation against them. Caselabs came up with a receipt (faked) that someone who worked at TT bought one and slandered TT. It was for that where Thermaltake said they could cause issues. CL apologized to Tt over it, so in the world view showing fault. Otherwise they could have just went away with integrity, but chose not to. There were also rumors that a TT employee stole their ideas from a Lan, where does it end? 

Unless you can find proof of litigation it's all a cop out rumor from CL.


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## GamerGuy (Oct 9, 2021)

A pic of my Caselabs M8, it's a big a$$ case with plenty of space, this was a while back when I had 2x GB RX VEGA64 Gaming OC. Solid case, been with me afor a while now.....


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 9, 2021)

sneekypeet said:


> I will say again. AFAIK Thermaltake never had any litigation against them. Caselabs came up with a receipt (faked) that someone who worked at TT bought one and slandered TT. It was for that where Thermaltake said they could cause issues. CL apologized to Tt over it, so in the world view showing fault. Otherwise they could have just went away with integrity, but chose not to. There were also rumors that a TT employee stole their ideas from a Lan, where does it end?
> 
> Unless you can find proof of litigation it's all a cop out rumor from CL.


Cl quote:
_CaseLabs apologizes for accusing Mr. Robb and Thermaltake of “stealing” anything. The look of a computer case will always have some similar features – given its functional nature. CaseLabs retracts its accusations against Thermaltake for “copying other people’s existing concepts and calling them your own” and of producing “rip-off products. CaseLabs acknowledges that it does not own any patents on any of its case products. CaseLabs’ postings, which suggested that litigating to enforce patents would be prohibitively expensive, were misleading, because they implied that CaseLabs actually owned patents, which it does not. CaseLabs regrets this error._

So in other words even of they did start litigation they would have failed miserably.


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## thesmokingman (Oct 9, 2021)

Basically CL fails at basic business and when the market heated up they could not adjust to market pressures.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 9, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> Basically CL fails at basic business and when the market heated up they could not adjust to market pressures.


I wouldn't say they failed at basic business as they ran a company well before Caselabs was a thing, just there's not a lot of designs or patents involved in sheet aluminium. It was when they started folding said sheets things got complicated for them.


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> I wouldn't say they failed at basic business as they ran a company well before Caselabs was a thing, just there's not a lot of designs or patents involved in sheet aluminium. It was when they started folding said sheets things got complicated for them.



How can you not, when the main company defaulted on an account and had to close everything?

"We are very sad to announce that CaseLabs and its parent company will be closing permanently. We have been forced into bankruptcy and liquidation. The tariffs have played a major role raising prices by almost 80% (partly due to associated shortages), which cut deeply into our margins. *The default of a large account added greatly to the problem.* It hit us at the worst possible time. We reached out for a possible deal that would allow us to continue on and persevere through these difficult times, but in the end, it didn't happen."









						CaseLabs Withers Away After Losing PR Battle to Thermaltake
					

Premium aluminium case maker CaseLabs made a splash in 2015 when it accused Thermaltake of stealing many of its case designs to make "cheap Asian knock-offs." When faced with the prospect of a legal challenge by the much larger Thermaltake, CaseLabs this July withdrew its comments and publicly...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




To me this entire situation is much like the IC Diamond issue. When the owners spend so much time slamming others and not paying attention to the business, shit unfolds quickly.


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## claes (Oct 9, 2021)

I don’t get it — thermaltake sued caselabs over designs that are pretty plainly made by CaseLabs. Unoriginal, sure, but it’s pretty clear, IMO, that a giant company that rips off all sorts of designs sued a tiny company that didn’t bother to patent their designs before larger company did. Seems like an Asetek situation to me.

Not to say that tariffs and poor business decisions didn’t have anything to do with it (obviously should have patented the designs; American manufacturing is nice but super-expensive in a niche market where competitors can win on margins alone), but I don’t know how anyone can pretend that TT didn’t rip-off their designs (and many others).

But hey, steel is much less flimsy than that thin aluminum they used :shrug:


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

claes said:


> thermaltake sued caselabs over designs



Where, when, where is that story?


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## maxfly (Oct 9, 2021)

TT steals designs, that's what they do. I have no idea how they get away it. They started with heatsinks and fans(if im not mistaken) and steadily progressed from there. 99% of the gear they produce themselves is over priced and sub par. Occasionally their knockoffs hit home but their build quality is always consistently poor and short sighted. Personally i believe they only stay competitive because they are popular with the kiddies in Asia. You will rarely see their gear being given as a solution on English speaking forums. I do like my x71 despite having to mod it to fit my wcing needs.

They blatantly copied CL designs and beat them to the punch unfortunately. The x71 im using right now is an obvious sm8 knockoff(after CL closed it was the best i could do sadly and it was 2nd hand).
I don't judge CL poorly for going out of business. How can i? I don't know their story, only carefully written press releases. Otherwise id have to frown down upon the 100s of other small businesses(that also operated on shoestring budgets at that time) who were also forced to shut down thanks to the orangutans brilliant trade choices with China and other countries.
From what little i do know, they were a small company trying to make a quality product and make a buck doing it. So until i hear some insider info as to what and why...i wont judge them harshly. Sometimes shit really does happen.

As for them potentially coming back? I think its great. I may be able to finally get that giant wcing case that can easily accommodate all of my rads without needing to shoehorn in my pumps and res!


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## claes (Oct 9, 2021)

sneekypeet said:


> Where, when, where is that story?


Sorry, “_threatened_ with a lawsuit.” Why are you such a fan boi/hater lol? If you can’t read between the lines, we’ll, I don’t know what to tell you.









						CASELABS APOLOGIZES FOR ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THERMALTAKE - Legit Reviews
					

CaseLabs, a manufacturer of computer cases, has issued a letter of retraction and apology for its recent attacks upon competitor Thermaltake, Inc., another manufacturer of computer cases and other computer components.




					www.legitreviews.com
				




“Hey guys we made sure CL deleted their FB posts and now want to make sure every tech news outlet rescinds their comments”









						Thermaltake Accused Of Stealing - New Computex Products Went Too Far - Legit Reviews
					






					www.legitreviews.com


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## tabascosauz (Oct 9, 2021)

Let's just put this past debacle behind us. The designs have a new owner now, and if we take his word for it, he's committed to bringing back all of what made Caselabs Caselabs. Simultaneously, hopefully he's able to run a smarter business than CL's original owners - it's one thing to state the common knowledge that an obvious thief is obvious, but it's another to pick a fight one's destined to lose.

If the wait is roughly 1-1.5 years as claimed, I'm more than happy to tweak my hardware a bit, move back into the Cerberus, and wait for the cases. If he delivers on his promise, great. If he doesn't, it will be a disappointment, but nothing new coming from years of Geekhack group buys and delayed/postponed/cancelled indie SFF cases.

I appreciate that not everyone has the same opinion of Caselabs (and concerns should always be fairly addressed, not swept under the rug using reputation), but their reputation also doesn't come from nowhere - their support comes from some of the most die-hard, old-school watercoolers I've ever seen over the years. At the same time, we all know where Thermaltake stands on imitating others, but it's not like they aren't without their meritorious products here and there, and deep down I want to believe that GN Steve's expose had to have at least *some* effect on their business going forwards.


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

claes said:


> Why are you such a fan boi/hater



Im just trying to keep the story straight without untrue accusations. No love or hate for either company.

Thermaltake sent a cease and desist with nothing about an apology needed, just stop what you are doing, and everything is fine. What happened was all from CL, the drama, the lies, all the BS. Those are the lines I am reading between, but I do have people who tell me the truth from the sources, not just what I read on the interwebs. However, if I have to see it your way, which is a fabrication, then I am not sure anything I type will get into your mind anyways.


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## claes (Oct 9, 2021)

Feel free to fill me in but, as a lawyer, I know what a cease and desist means, and it’s implications, especially to a tiny company with low margins. Having followed the drama, I’m sympathetic to CL’s side of the story, but I might not know what you know. All I have is heresay, but I’m uncomfortable calling that “lies” and “BS,” given the two companies reputations.


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## sneekypeet (Oct 9, 2021)

claes said:


> Feel free to fill me in but, as a lawyer, I know what a cease and desist means, and it’s implications, especially to a tiny company with low margins. Having followed the drama, I’m sympathetic to CL’s side of the story, but I might not know what you know. All I have is heresay, but I’m uncomfortable calling that “lies” and “BS,” given the two companies reputations.



Im just calling it what it is. If you would like to discuss we can open a PM chain and anyone can join.
All I see from the outside was an assumption backed by CL taking all the wrong actions that followed, which brought heat on them as it should with that tact.


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## Punx223 (Oct 13, 2021)

claes said:


> Feel free to fill me in but, as a lawyer, I know what a cease and desist means, and it’s implications, especially to a tiny company with low margins. Having followed the drama, I’m sympathetic to CL’s side of the story, but I might not know what you know. All I have is heresay, but I’m uncomfortable calling that “lies” and “BS,” given the two companies reputations.



As a lawyer, you also know that in many situations a cease and desist can easily be challenged if it was a BS bully tactic by a company.

As someone who was blamed directly by CL in their BS and lies, I can tell you that Sneeky is telling you the truth. 

I have not and will not go into all of the details, but let's just say this... I met the owners of CL at PDXLAN, and even thanked them for supporting a great community. I saw their product and told them"You guys make some great chassis, but be ready as we have our own modular chassis coming soon"... Far different than the story from father and son owners of CL, in which case I had asked them if I could take pictures to send to my design team so we can make it (Who the hell with any sense would actually do that?!?)

My only saving grace in the situation was the abundance of people (modders and attendees who observed the kind exchange) who backed what actually took place when this all came about while I was in TW for Computex.

The major issue came down to a lot of media taking CL at their word and publishing stories saying Tt copied a bunch of products including the Swiftech apogee. Which I personally found quite humorous, as I am good friends with Gabe the founder/owner of Swiftech, and even helped set up comms with Tt and Swiftech to license and have the block produced by Swiftech.

Long story short, I worked with the Thermaltake design team to revolutionize their case models, and many of the effects can be seen to this day in various capacities.


Do I think the Core W and Core X series was similar to the CL offerings? yea, probably, but then again, before raising the pitchforks, you should probably ask Ben from Mountain Mods, his feelings when CL essentially took his idea and made it their own... or Antec about Fractal... the list can go on forever.

Anyways, at least now you know the basics of the shit show that was CL trying to save face as their bad business decisions for their main company sunk the lot. (TLR CL's parent company f****d up and leveraged themselves too far and when a major client defaulted they could not recover...hence CL dies with the main ALU/metal fab company)

Even if Tt had never made any of the core cases everyone claims was a ripoff of CL, the writing was on the wall, and when the client defaulted, they would have faltered.

Cheers,
Shannon (Formerly of Thermaltake)


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 13, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> As a lawyer, you also know that in many situations a cease and desist can easily be challenged if it was a BS bully tactic by a company.
> 
> As someone who was blamed directly by CL in their BS and lies, I can tell you that Sneeky is telling you the truth.
> 
> ...


I loved CL's designs as I'm sure many did, so apart from opinions or hearsay the fact was Caselabs didn't own any design patents so if Tt copied CL design with the W100 was because the design was good and they could copy it with no legal ramifications. 
If you want to go on to ethics that's fine but don't tell me any company wouldn't copy from another in their own field if it were possible.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 13, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> As a lawyer, you also know that in many situations a cease and desist can easily be challenged if it was a BS bully tactic by a company.
> 
> As someone who was blamed directly by CL in their BS and lies, I can tell you that Sneeky is telling you the truth.
> 
> ...



I like the core series cases, CL cases where imo faar too expensive for what they where. So basically Tt never copied? they didn't really need to. CL fans just wanted someone to blame/wave pitchforks at.


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## phanbuey (Oct 13, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> The major issue came down to a lot of media taking CL at their word and publishing stories saying Tt copied a bunch of products including the Swiftech apogee. Which I personally found quite humorous, as I am good friends with Gabe the founder/owner of Swiftech, and even helped set up comms with Tt and Swiftech to license and have the block produced by Swiftech.
> 
> Long story short, I worked with the Thermaltake design team to revolutionize their case models, and many of the effects can be seen to this day in various capacities.



To be fair they took them at their word because the cases were literal knock-offs.




Whether anyone took pictures or not is really not the issue.  I don't have to physically take pictures of something to copy it -- I just have to see it and then tell people to copy it.  Especially something simple like a case.  And saying that "well other companies do it" doesn't make it right either - we do have IP law against this it's just difficult to enforce.  TT didn't have a license on the CL design like it did with swiftech so that's not relevant either.

Anyone with eyes and a brain sees that TT copies people - if it's your business and they come to you for a license great... now you have no choice -- if you don't give it to them, they will just take your design and copy it.  God forbid you're a small company doing something innovative at low volume and don't have a team of IP lawyers to protect you.

The "Any company wouldn't copy another" argument is basically "Well since CL had the right, but not the the practical capability to protect its IP, or that TT is outside of the full legal ramifications of US IP, it's ok that TT ripped off those designs, everyone does it".


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 13, 2021)

if they did copy, they made affordable versions of CL's stupidly priced cases. If someone can get essentially the same item cheaper they will. Also they charged a shit ton for their cases and defaulted on a bill, what where they doing with all the cash they made on the cases? living it up. If the cost of the aluminium, to make it, going from $45 to $87 in a case that cost well over $600 was enough to take down CL, that company wasn't doing so hot anyway.


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## phanbuey (Oct 13, 2021)

Tigger said:


> if they did copy, they made affordable versions of CL's stupidly priced cases. If someone can get essentially the same item cheaper they will. Also they charged a shit ton for their cases and defaulted on a bill, what where they doing with all the cash they made on the cases? living it up. If the cost of the aluminium, to make it, going from $45 to $87 in a case that cost well over $600 was enough to take down CL, that company wasn't doing so hot anyway.



They did that because CL was a low volume producer that was based in the US -- they can't compete with TT on cost ever.  But -- that design was theirs.   The correct, ethical way would have been to pursue ath a license or for TT to spend the R&D money to make at least a somewhat unique design.  I just hope CL comes back, is successful, and sues  Thermalfake for lost license fees - so at least the engineers who came up with that case get something.

I'm not saying CL was doing hot or not... just saying that rewarding talentless stealing because you can underpay factory workers overseas is not something that's legal or ethical.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 13, 2021)

phanbuey said:


> They did that because CL was a low volume producer that was based in the US -- they can't compete with TT on cost ever.  But -- that design was theirs.   The correct, ethical way would have been to pursue ath a license or for TT to spend the R&D money to make at least a somewhat unique design.  I just hope CL comes back, is successful, and sues  Thermalfake for lost license fees - so at least the engineers who came up with that case get something.
> 
> I'm not saying CL was doing hot or not... just saying that rewarding talentless stealing because you can underpay factory workers overseas is not something that's legal or ethical.



Low volume because not a lot of people have 600-1200+ to spend on a case, however good it might be. i'm sure  a few people have said Tt never copied, Where is the proof? do the case look exactly like CL cases? CL had no copyrights for some unknown reason, there has been lots of copies of product that are not protected. If you don't own the copyright, do you own the design?


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## thesmokingman (Oct 13, 2021)

phanbuey said:


> They did that because CL was a low volume producer that was based in the US -- they can't compete with TT on cost ever.  But -- that design was theirs.   The correct, ethical way would have been to pursue ath a license or for TT to spend the R&D money to make at least a somewhat unique design.  I just hope CL comes back, is successful, and sues  Thermalfake for lost license fees - so at least the engineers who came up with that case get something.
> 
> I'm not saying CL was doing hot or not... just saying that rewarding talentless stealing because you can underpay factory workers overseas is not something that's legal or ethical.


That's kind stupid, to pursue a license for a look that is not protected. This is like Apple patenting and trying to defend corners on their phones. And really any business 101 copycats are an eventual outcome. It's the second thing they ask entrepreneurs in Shark Tank, what are you going to do when the product is knocked off? And the truth is CL did not invent that look, others came before them. They should have scaled up to bring the price down to make it harder for them to be under cut but they didn't. They literally failed at business 101. Hell take Porsche for example who even used this eventuality in their marketing slogans, Porsche there is no substitute in the 80's. Hello Mazda RX7... hello Nissan GTR. The markets are littered with same same copies of everything.


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## Punx223 (Oct 13, 2021)

Now do Mountain Mods


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## sneekypeet (Oct 13, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> Now do Mountain Mods


Who borrowed frome Danger Den


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## Punx223 (Oct 13, 2021)

I can't wait till you all learn about 3D Printers


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## thesmokingman (Oct 13, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> I can't wait till you all learn about 3D Printers


Haha, yea everyone with a printer is their own lil Shenzhen factory.


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## Punx223 (Oct 13, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> Haha, yea everyone with a printer is their own lil Shenzhen factory.


Ok not gonna lie, I lost some water to my keyboard on that one.

*Looks over at my SLA and FDM printers* 

DAMMIT


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## phanbuey (Oct 14, 2021)

Yeah right same argument - "everyone is doing it... business 101" blah blah.  That's why TT is generally considered garbage.  Mountain Mods and Danger Den had their own looks and their own layouts -- their own designs.   They all took inspiration from each other but they are all different (as you can see from my DD tower 21 in my avatar) -- look at that TT photo again, it's just a straight rip.  Like if I took TPU and just copied it and started a rival site doing absolutely no design work of my own.

If your best argument is "Everyone is doing it", "they didn't fill out the correct paperwork" and "3D printers let people do it too" then - I'm sorry but those aren't very good arguments.  3D printers let people customize their cases to their own needs.  TT doesn't customize anything.  Some companies are big enough to survive and withstand cheap copies, caselabs was not one of them.

If you guys want to sit around and use the same 3 arguments to justify stealing then ok... But let's not pretend this issue is more complicated than it is.  TT stole some case designs and have the worst reputation in the industry for exactly that.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> As a lawyer, you also know that in many situations a cease and desist can easily be challenged if it was a BS bully tactic by a company.
> 
> As someone who was blamed directly by CL in their BS and lies, I can tell you that Sneeky is telling you the truth.
> 
> ...



Lemme take the word of a really angry and defensive person who is completely embroiled in/at the center of the accusations… Very compelling, so much good faith

(this is exactly why small companies run away from cease and desists — giant companies like TT can afford to spend years negotiating heresay, smaller companies can’t. Do you pay attention to IP law in your industry at all?)


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## Punx223 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Lemme take the word of a really angry and defensive person who is completely embroiled in/at the center of the accusations… Very compelling, so much good faith
> 
> (this is exactly why small companies run away from cease and desists — giant companies like TT can afford to spend years negotiating heresay, smaller companies can’t. Do you pay attention to IP law in your industry at all?)



My apologies if anything seemed angry and defensive, I had admittedly lost all care to give about this topic long ago.

I simply thought the TPU community valued actual data and not bloviated untrue claims which are continually regurgitated.

I guessed wrong I suppose.

Either way, you do you.


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## ThrashZone (Oct 14, 2021)

Hi,
Haven't looked but I can probably assume TT will not be making aluminum cases lol


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## sneekypeet (Oct 14, 2021)

phanbuey said:


> Yeah right same argument - "everyone is doing it... business 101" blah blah.  That's why TT is generally considered garbage.  Mountain Mods and Danger Den had their own looks and their own layouts -- their own designs.   They all took inspiration from each other but they are all different (as you can see from my DD tower 21 in my avatar) -- look at that TT photo again, it's just a straight rip.  Like if I took TPU and just copied it and started a rival site doing absolutely no design work of my own.
> 
> If your best argument is "Everyone is doing it", "they didn't fill out the correct paperwork" and "3D printers let people do it too" then - I'm sorry but those aren't very good arguments.  3D printers let people customize their cases to their own needs.  TT doesn't customize anything.  Some companies are big enough to survive and withstand cheap copies, caselabs was not one of them.
> 
> If you guys want to sit around and use the same 3 arguments to justify stealing then ok... But let's not pretend this issue is more complicated than it is.  TT stole some case designs and have the worst reputation in the industry for exactly that.



Point was they all sold unassembled flat pack cases. TT was the only one that made the idea an actual affordable, assembled case, and is the evil one for it


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 14, 2021)

sneekypeet said:


> Point was they all sold unassembled flat pack cases. TT was the only one that made the idea an actual affordable, assembled case, and is the evil one for it



Not forgetting CL cases didn't even come with PCI slot covers, iirc they were a $30 extra, ridiculous. CL where overpriced, don't know why people think they were the be all.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> My apologies if anything seemed angry and defensive, I had admittedly lost all care to give about this topic long ago.
> 
> I simply thought the TPU community valued actual data and not bloviated untrue claims which are continually regurgitated.
> 
> ...


Love this post, way to dig your heels in the shit show rather than patiently explain… I’m not even a big fan of CL (although I wish I could’ve tried the bullet series), but this arrogance and contempt says a lot. Sorry people are calling you out for ripping people off, and apparently making TT more profitable in doing so, but you reap what you sow.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Oct 14, 2021)

Punx223 said:


> My apologies if anything seemed angry and defensive, I had admittedly lost all care to give about this topic long ago.
> 
> I simply thought the TPU community valued actual data and not bloviated untrue claims which are continually regurgitated.
> 
> ...



I guess people prefer, the random crap off the net, rather than from someone who worked at Tt and met CL owners. 

I just hope if CL do reappear, it's not the same overpriced diy boxes that cost fortune and come with zero extras.


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## HammerON (Oct 14, 2021)

I think this conversation has run it's course.  Please refrain from further banter about CL/TT and who came out with what case first.
Let's focus on the discussion of CL returning to the market.
I find it a little disturbing that we have some members who cannot "play nice in the sandbox" with others they disagree with.


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