# Maxon Sends Legal Threats to PC Enthusiast Websites Hosting Portable Cinebench R20 Downloads



## btarunr (Mar 11, 2019)

Maxon last week week posted its Cinebench R20 CPU benchmark. Breaking convention, the company behind rendering software such as Cinema 4D R20, did not host the installer of Cinebench R20 on its own website. Instead, the software is being exclusively distributed through Microsoft Store (for Windows) and Apple App Store (for the MacOS platform). Several reputable PC enthusiast websites such as Guru3D and us, were bombarded by comments from their readers that they didn't like having to get their Cinebench R20 copy from "walled garden DRM platforms," and instead preferred portable versions of the software. Cinebench R20 is freeware, and so with good intentions, many PC enthusiast websites decided to build portable versions of Cinebench R20 that people can just unzip and run. Maxon did not take kindly to this.

Guru3D received legal threats from Maxon to take down their download hosting of Cinebench R20 portable. Facing these threats, Guru3D took down their download and amended their news articles with links to the Microsoft DRM store. The e-mail we received politely asked us to remove the "unauthorized download" but did include a threat that the company "reserves the next legal steps." We believe this behavior by Maxon is unfair, and will alienate a section of PC enthusiasts form Cinebench. No record-seeking PC enthusiast with an LN2 bench painstakingly set up has time to plug their machine to the Internet, launch the UWP store, evade attempts to get them to log in with a Microsoft account, and fetch Cinebench R20 with versions they have no control over. They'd rather install and run their benchmarks and tools off a flash drive, with control over versions, and the ability to keep their machines offline to stabilize their overclock. Many others simply hate DRM platforms for freeware. TechPowerUp has since taken down Cinebench R20 portable from its Downloads section. You can find it on Microsoft UWP Store. 





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## EuroTy (Mar 11, 2019)

DRM-free ? Walled garden ? Why the hell did you installed Windows 10 in first place ? Just use Linux if don't like it. The thing is that for the end-user is much easier to press one button than 3-4.


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## dj-electric (Mar 11, 2019)

I think that the best thing we can do is just not use R20, not advertise R20, not take any part in it.


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## kastriot (Mar 11, 2019)

Their loss.


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## HD64G (Mar 11, 2019)

So, they don't wont pre-win10 users to use their "free" software?


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## HwGeek (Mar 11, 2019)

I think they forgot what Cinebench is used for...
It first I was very happy that they finally released new version to be relevant in 2019 with all the new CPU's, but forcing Windows store? not cool.
They could just add windows store as another download source, and as mentioned before- what Win 7 users should do?


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 11, 2019)

I doubt spewing venom here is going to do justice when the folks who has beef with UWP are partially at fault for forcing sites like TPU to "write" portable versions of the benchmark software, knowing full well that there will be consequences but couldn't care much because they're not taking responsibility. Sure Maxon is unfair when it comes to protecting their software but making a portable version without their consent kinda make things worst.


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## john_ (Mar 11, 2019)

> You can find it on Microsoft UWP Store.



I guess, most we just don't care if we can.


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## biffzinker (Mar 11, 2019)

I'm not deleting the portable version I made from the Microsoft Store.


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## hat (Mar 11, 2019)

It's already freeware, isn't it? In that case, shouldn't they just be happy that people are interested in their software? Methinks Maxon got in bed with Microsoft...


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## sutyi (Mar 11, 2019)

Maxxon does know how the internet works right? Once it's up and out there it will be always around till the end of time...

Instead of sending out legal threats they should just make their own portable version to share...


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## erixx (Mar 11, 2019)

The future looks more like walls en less like gardens.
Maybe their strategy is "OS price down, 'app' monetarization up"? Turning indeed the OS into a portal. "Hey mama!! Look, just like Android and iOS!"


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## W1zzard (Mar 11, 2019)

dj-electric said:


> I think that the best thing we can do is just not use R20, not advertise R20, not take any part in it.


i'm seriously considering that for my reviews and will just stick with R15 unless overwhelming requests for R20



sutyi said:


> Instead of sending out legal threats they should just make their own portable version to share...


Either they want to mine the MS Store installation data for statistics, or they have some sort of exclusivity contract with MS, which I find hard to imagine, given how niche CineBench is. Could also just be some noob beancounter people there who have no idea how their benchmark is used in the community. In the end all they care about is money from rendering people for their Cinema4D software, not hardware enthusiasts


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## Vayra86 (Mar 11, 2019)

This is weird, really.


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## Xzibit (Mar 11, 2019)

Doesnt their EULA state you need their permission.



			
				MAXON R20 EULA said:
			
		

> Software that is delivered by MAXON marked as “Not-for-Resale” and whose sale or distribution to third parties is prohibited without permission of MAXON


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## Vya Domus (Mar 11, 2019)

With some of the bizarre results that this benchmarks gives out and now this, something is sketchy with these guys.


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## W1zzard (Mar 11, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> Doesnt their EULA state you need their permission.








That doesn't look like "marked as not for resale"


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## Fahad (Mar 11, 2019)

"Unfair"? It's their proprietary software, and they have every right to decide how it gets distributed. And considering it's free, people really shouldn't be complaining. Them being left out because they decide to stick with an older OS is absolutely their choice. It's not like they cant continue to use the older version of Cinebench.


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## HwGeek (Mar 11, 2019)

They claim that R20 supports Win 7 - so they need to provide the software to Win7 users too- If not then they should say Win 10 only:
Great example of: "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing ".


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## Regeneration (Mar 11, 2019)

You're all welcome to use Linpack Xtreme for benchmarking:

https://www.techpowerup.com/download/linpack-xtreme/

It is completely portable, just 8MB in size, cross-platform, supports MP platforms and uses the latest instructions sets.

No need to download 200MB files from MS Store.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 11, 2019)

Regeneration said:


> You're all welcome to use Linpack Xtreme for benchmarking:
> 
> https://www.techpowerup.com/download/linpack-xtreme/
> 
> ...



Inb4 massive complaints of broken Coffee Lake OC's 

Linpack is brutal. Though I agree, its a good one and pretty stable across many years too.


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## windwhirl (Mar 11, 2019)

People's problem with Microsoft Store seems somewhat... exaggerated.

DRM? DRM depends mostly on the app itself, not so much the Store. The apps choose whether or not to implement some form of DRM. The Store only records that you've downloaded the app and that it should be kept updated, if it is installed. If you login with a MS account, it just means that the Store will remember everything you've ever acquired, even if you reinstall the OS. And why the hell would Cinebench launch from the Store if there was any kind of DRM that could affect its performance? I'd like to believe they thought about that.

Walled-garden? Seriously? Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to ditch the classic Win32/Win64 software and run everything from the Store. This isn't iOS, or even Android, and Microsoft knows that.

On the other hand, the site says Cinebench supports Windows 7... So, where is the installer for Windows 7? Or is it something they forgot to change during the launch?


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## CobaltQuasar (Mar 11, 2019)

EuroTy said:


> DRM-free ? Walled garden ? Why the hell did you installed Windows 10 in first place ? Just use Linux if don't like it. The thing is that for the end-user is much easier to press one button than 3-4.



What you said is true, the end user wants to install it as simple as possible... Opening it from a usb drive without configuring the ms store first.
The target audience is overclockers, it isn't your average facebook dweller. 
hwbot only considers windows7 submissions as valid for r15, and will likely be the case for r20.
You shouldn't start blurting out linux nonsense when you don't understand who this software is for.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

@W1zzard I would rather see you not use R20 in any reviews. Just stick with R15 or another program. 

Since it is Maxon’s property, and distribution is up to them, then respecting their wishes keeps TPU safe from lawsuit.  I really would hate to see TPU facing legal action it can ill afford just because TPU insisted it is “free.”  

In the long run, it is better reputation-wise throughout the tech community to to be seen as respecting their wishes.  Even if it is obtained at the Microsoft store, promoting R20 is also a bad idea, given Maxon’s stance, and would further embolden them.  I say don’t even pay it any attention.


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## Capitan Harlock (Mar 11, 2019)

This is idiotic at lvl 9000.
I'm still rocking Windows 7 and i'm gonna use it until it dies .
How i was suppose to download it from the MS Store?
Someone didn't switch on the brain .
Glad i got it before was removed.


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## Manoa (Mar 11, 2019)

oh noes !!! im hiding under the sink .... what am I going to do now ?! i have no other benchmark softwares in 2019


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## Litzner (Mar 11, 2019)

EuroTy said:


> DRM-free ? Walled garden ? Why the hell did you installed Windows 10 in first place ? Just use Linux if don't like it. The thing is that for the end-user is much easier to press one button than 3-4.



I would love to use Linux as my primary gaming OS, but its just not there as far as support goes yet. Not enough works and works well on it  I am not sure if it ever will be there, it kind of seems like Steam is slowing it's Linux gaming push.



Vayra86 said:


> Inb4 massive complaints of broken Coffee Lake OC's
> 
> Linpack is brutal. Though I agree, its a good one and pretty stable across many years too.



Linpack is still my top choice for testing OC stability. I always stabilize in Linpack before anything else, then check a few other things, then just use my computer as normal and see if I run into any problems.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 11, 2019)

I mean it's not as if websites were charging for or making money off portable versions of *FREE* software

Seems like quite a dick move to say the least. It reminds me of when EA scrambled to shut down the company that was keeping BF2 and BF:Heroes  alive


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## ironwolf (Mar 11, 2019)

Whew, glad I totally didn't download it from a certain website the day it was posted.


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## phanbuey (Mar 11, 2019)

Well, that's one way to become irrelevant I guess.


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## Athlonite (Mar 11, 2019)

windwhirl said:


> People's problem with Microsoft Store seems somewhat... exaggerated.



In my case it's not I can't install a single thing from the store without getting an error code: 0x80070005 or 0x80070015 (if I uninstall PowerISO) so for me the portable DL was great it means I din't have to dick around with the stupid store


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## Voluman (Mar 11, 2019)

Well, i am honestly curious about the results of different hardware, but if they dont provide an accaptable answer for this than im not sure it deserve the effort to use it anyway.


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## delshay (Mar 11, 2019)

Capitan Harlock said:


> This is idiotic at lvl 9000.
> I'm still rocking Windows 7 and i'm gonna use it until it dies .
> How i was suppose to download it from the MS Store?
> Someone didn't switch on the brain .
> Glad i got it before was removed.



Same here. i'm on Win 7 & I had to download from another website to get it installed.


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## Prince Valiant (Mar 11, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> *i'm seriously considering that for my reviews and will just stick with R15 *unless overwhelming requests for R20
> 
> Either they want to mine the MS Store installation data for statistics, or they have some sort of exclusivity contract with MS, which I find hard to imagine, given how niche CineBench is. Could also just be some noob beancounter people there who have no idea how their benchmark is used in the community. In the end all they care about is money from rendering people for their Cinema4D software, not hardware enthusiasts


Please do.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 11, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> i'm seriously considering that for my reviews and will just stick with R15 unless overwhelming requests for R20





rtwjunkie said:


> @W1zzard I would rather see you not use R20 in any reviews. Just stick with R15 or another program.



I concur.


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## Regeneration (Mar 11, 2019)

Cinebench became popular thanks to tech sites like TPU and Guru3D. If Maxon sends legal threats, you shouldn't promote Cinebench.

Let's face it, the OpenGL benchmark was a joke. Cinebench was only useful for CPU benchmarking, and there are plenty of alternatives out there.


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## natr0n (Mar 11, 2019)

I got my portable copy ala tpu.  .

Very odd they locked into MS Store.


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## hat (Mar 11, 2019)

Welp, looks like Maxon shot themselves in the foot on this one.

Next!


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## Fx (Mar 11, 2019)

Fahad said:


> "Unfair"? It's their proprietary software, and they have every right to decide how it gets distributed. And considering it's free, people really shouldn't be complaining.



What the hell are you confused about? Just because someone has the right to decide distribution or make their product free doesn't mean that consumers of the product have to like all aspects of the distribution, collection, privacy or use. Yes, they can move on to another product, but that is also of their own opinion and discretion.

Let's just say, if a company pisses enough people off, they won't have interested parties in its use and then well, they just lost their cause for RND of the product didn't they?


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## Jism (Mar 11, 2019)

I think MS is paying vendors to make use of the App-store only. They cant just put a product exclusive to the appstore only like that.


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## MrGenius (Mar 11, 2019)

If anybody wants/needs it PM me.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Mar 11, 2019)

Guess i shoulda grabbed this while I could. Looks like I wont be downloading it at all then.


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## Gasaraki (Mar 11, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> That doesn't look like "marked as not for resale"



Free doesn't mean you can resell it...


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## OneMoar (Mar 11, 2019)

https://store.rg-adguard.net/

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/cinebench/9pgzkjc81q7j?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

paste in the link download the .appx
 extract with winrar. run binary
fuck you maxon

edit apparently something changed with the appx package the above is no longer working correctly


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 11, 2019)

"free for all" isn't free when you have to agree to EULAs or T&Cs. Bet one of those lines no one would read has obviously stated that one do not have the rights to modify, copy, broadcast or distribute a software/product/media unless the company/devs/publisher are fine with that.


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## MrGenius (Mar 11, 2019)

Gasaraki said:


> Free doesn't mean you can resell it...


Who said anything about reselling it? By definition you can't resell something that was free. Since it was never sold in the first place. And nobody is trying to sell it after having received it for free.

*re·sell*
/rēˈsel/
verb
verb: *resell*; 3rd person present: *resells*; past tense: *resold*; past participle: *resold*; gerund or present participle: *reselling*; verb: *re-sell*; 3rd person present: *re-sells*; past tense: *re-sold*; past participle:* re-sold*; gerund or present participle: *re-selling*

sell (*something one has bought*) to someone else.
"products can be resold on the black market for huge profits"


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2019)

Fahad said:


> "Unfair"? It's their proprietary software, and they have every right to decide how it gets distributed. And considering it's free, people really shouldn't be complaining.


Some people don't and won't use the "Windows Store", because (A) they are not running Windows 10, (B) they prefer not to use "Apps" model of software distribution or (C) they have privacy concerns and refuse to use the Windows Store as a result. There are likely more reasons someone might avoid Microsoft's to-little-to-late approuch to software distribution.



Litzner said:


> I would love to use Linux as my primary gaming OS, but its just not there as far as support goes yet. Not enough works and works well on it  I am not sure if it ever will be there, it kind of seems like Steam is slowing it's Linux gaming push.


The only area of software where that is true is gaming. Everything else has excellent options for every sector of computing.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 11, 2019)

privacy is irrelevant once you say/clicked "I agree" to every EULA/T&C/TOS... Linux won't save mere normal users when adoption rate & compatibility is still nowhere as mainstream as Windows.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 11, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> i'm seriously considering that for my reviews and will just stick with R15 unless overwhelming requests for R20
> 
> 
> Either they want to mine the MS Store installation data for statistics, or they have some sort of exclusivity contract with MS, which I find hard to imagine, given how niche CineBench is. Could also just be some noob beancounter people there who have no idea how their benchmark is used in the community. In the end all they care about is money from rendering people for their Cinema4D software, not hardware enthusiasts



While Cinebench is useful looking at this as is I might switch to Blender 3D and do a scene render, testing single and multi-core that way via render times. Since it can be made portable, is freeware and isn't apparently run by idiots. I might switch. This handles the 3D rendering aspect just fine and then add in Luxmark for GPU / OpenCL.


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## MrGenius (Mar 11, 2019)

*GUIDE: How to make your own portable version of Cinebench R20*

Download the MAXONComputerGmbH.Cinebench_20.0.4.0_x64__rsne5bsk8s7tj.appx as described in post #44 of this thread.(Thanks @OneMoar )
Use the .appx to install the app(left click on it and select Install).
Go to C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\MAXONComputerGmbH.Cinebench_20.0.4.0_x64__rsne5bsk8s7tj and copy the bin folder.
Paste the bin folder wherever you want to keep your portable version(needs to be saved somewhere else if you're going to uninstall the app afterwards, which will delete it).
OPTIONAL: Rename the bin folder to whatever you want and uninstall Cinebench R20 via Settings > Apps > Apps & features.
For some reason you need to install it with the .appx to get a working portable version. It doesn't work as portable if you extract the bin folder from the .appx. You need to get the bin folder after installing it(as I described above). But, temporarily installing it is a reasonable compromise IMO. Until someone figures out what gets changed in the bin folder during install. I couldn't find anything with a quick look see. 

EDIT: Same basic process applies if you install it from the Microsoft Store.


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## damric (Mar 11, 2019)

Well thanks I already snagged the file from you last week, just in time I guess


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## Xzibit (Mar 11, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> That doesn't look like "marked as not for resale"



That's product overview web-page.



			
				Maxon R20 EULA said:
			
		

> The End User is not entitled to rent out, lease, or lend the Software to third parties without MAXON’s permission, especially for purposes directly or indirectly related to any form of compensation. *You are also not entitled to process or modify the Software without MAXON’s permission*,



If the product was for those distributions platforms and thus modified to circumvent it. It is in violation of the EULA.

Can't really be upset with Maxon. They are protecting their Software. If people go against the EULA and then get called on it, that's on them. You could always ask for permission and see what they tell you.

I do like how the majority of the community responds in kind by advocating Software piracy.


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## mswans34 (Mar 11, 2019)

If you wanted a single-threaded benchmark, why not try SynBench:

https://zedlx.com/synbench/sbinfo

It also has an online (web) version, with a small database of results.


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## Patriot (Mar 11, 2019)

Yeah... they really need to stop claiming Win 7 Support if they are not going to allow 3rd party downloads like they did with R15.
That or just you know, Ask them for permission to redistribute a windows 7 only edition.
Already have portable edition for testing on windows server...


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> I do like how the majority of the community responds in kind by advocating Software piracy.


It's not piracy. It's not even unauthorized modification. The files are taken straight from the installed folder and run as-is. The software is freeware. No money is being charged to anyone for use. Unauthorized/unapproved distribution? Ok. One could argue that point. Those are not the same things however.


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## MrGenius (Mar 11, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> If the product was for the those distributions platforms and thus modified to circumvent it. It is in violation of the EULA.


I'm not saying it's any more, or any less, a violation of the EULA. But it wasn't modified to circumvent it. When you install the software "legitimately" you get a working portable version. It's just a matter of copy and paste. I don't know why W1z went to the trouble of adding the msvcp140.dll. It was totally unnecessary to do so. And inclusion of the Readme, though a helpful addition, was also completely unnecessary.


Xzibit said:


> I do like how the majority of the community responds in kind by advocating Software piracy.


You can't pirate something that's free. Plain and simple.


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## W1zzard (Mar 11, 2019)

MrGenius said:


> It was totally unnecessary to do so


Except that people who don't have those VC runtimes installed get an error message and don't know what to do. Usually they start googling and end up on a malware site


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## Patriot (Mar 11, 2019)

Heck, post Download EULAs have been ruled non-binding in all but NY... because they were not agreed to when you acquired it (the sale or download marking contract)... but foist on you after.    Hence why Nvidia has a Eula ready and available when you download it, click here to view it, if you click download you are agreeing to it...


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## R0H1T (Mar 11, 2019)

How about *exclude CB from benchmark numbers*, maybe that'll persuade Maxon or MS about their approach?


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## dicktracy (Mar 11, 2019)

Cinebench is not a good indicator of CPU performance anyways. We've seen that with the 1800x vs 6900k during Ryzen 1st gen launch. 1800x "beats" 6900k in Cinebench, then proceeds to lose in everything outside of it.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> Except that people who don't have those VC runtimes installed get an error message and don't know what to do. Usually they start googling and end up on a malware site


And this does not constitute modification either. Including required libraries that are freely available anyway is not breaking any rules as long as the files themselves are not changed/altered in any way.


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## R0H1T (Mar 11, 2019)

dicktracy said:


> Cinebench is not a good indicator of CPU performance anyways. We've seen that with the 1800x vs 6900k during Ryzen 1st gen launch. 1800x "beats" 6900k in Cinebench, then proceeds to lose in everything outside of it.


That's how benchmarks work & not necessarily because they're bad. AMD also smashes Intel in many AES & SHA1 benches, are all of them bad as well?


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's not piracy. It's not even unauthorized modification. The files are taken straight from the installed folder and run as-is. The software is freeware. No money is being charged to anyone for use. Unauthorized/unapproved distribution? Ok. One could argue that point. Those are not the same things however.


As the creators of the program, they have every right to control how, where and when their intellectual property is distributed.  Just because it is free doesn’t make it ok.


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## Xzibit (Mar 11, 2019)

It was stated that the origin of the files for the portable where the MS App store.



			
				Microsoft App store Terms of Use said:
			
		

> *Notice Specific to Software Available on this Website*
> Any software that is made available to download from the Services ("Software") is the copyrighted work of Microsoft and/or its suppliers. Use of the Software is governed by the terms of the end user license agreement, if any, which accompanies or is included with the Software ("License Agreement"). An end user will be unable to install any Software that is accompanied by or includes a License Agreement, unless he or she first agrees to the License Agreement terms. Third party scripts or code, linked to or referenced from this website, are licensed to you by the third parties that own such code, not by Microsoft.
> The Software is made available for download solely for use by end users according to the License Agreement. *Any reproduction or redistribution of the Software not in accordance with the License Agreement is expressly prohibited by law, and may result in severe civil and criminal penalties.* Violators will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible.
> WITHOUT LIMITING THE FOREGOING, COPYING OR REPRODUCTION OF THE SOFTWARE TO ANY OTHER SERVER OR LOCATION FOR FURTHER REPRODUCTION OR REDISTRIBUTION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED, UNLESS SUCH REPRODUCTION OR REDISTRIBUTION IS EXPRESSLY PERMITTED BY THE LICENSE AGREEMENT ACCOMPANYING SUCH SOFTWARE.



Not only are they violating Maxon they are also violating MS ToU


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## OneMoar (Mar 11, 2019)

technically extracting a appx file is not modification of ANY software thats a Microsoft provided package not a piece of executable code
legally they probably have shakey ground at best here,

either way they have just shot them selves in the foot and drank a gallon of bleach
they are done nobody will use there software ever again, you don't threaten the press and you don't piss off your user base they have managed todo both in one fell swoop 
RIP maxon



MrGenius said:


> *GUIDE: How to make your own portable version of Cinebench R20*
> 
> Download the MAXONComputerGmbH.Cinebench_20.0.4.0_x64__rsne5bsk8s7tj.appx as described in post #44 of this thread.(Thanks @OneMoar )
> Use the .appx to install the app(left click on it and select Install).
> ...


they added encryption to the appx manifest
problem is nobody at maxon seems to understand that once you install it its decrypted. encryption is for deploying a UWP app which this is not


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> As the creators of the program, they have every right to control how, where and when their intellectual property is distributed.  Just because it is free doesn’t make it ok.


That's still not piracy though.



OneMoar said:


> either way they have just shot them selves in the foot and drank a gallon of bleach
> they are done nobody will use there software ever again, you don't threaten the press and you don't piss off your user base they have managed todo both in one fell swoop
> RIP maxon


While that's a bit extreme, it seems clear that they have done themselves needless damage. While they have the right, why was it needed? There is very little logic to this other than a Microsoft collusion to migrate people to the Windows Store, which many dislike.


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## srsbsns (Mar 11, 2019)

If the EULA does not contain any language that you violate by distribution then can they do anything?


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## notb (Mar 11, 2019)

What a sad day. Here we have a "PC enthusiast" community that doesn't respect the work of software developers.
Guys, why do you hate computers so much? 

It doesn't matter if you call it piracy or not. It doesn't matter if it's free or not.
Someone made a program you like. They don't ask for money, or fame, or organs, or even a funky badge on a forum.
*They simply asked you to take it from an official download location and not to modify the files.* Is that really so difficult to accept?

More importantly, half of this discussion is not even about Cinebench, but about lack of understanding how software copyright works. Which is pretty bizarre considering what this community is about.

Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed (and I can see that's true), they have similar rules on their site. So you weren't allowed to modify or share the files you got from www.maxon.net as well.

And just a short notice for all the people that foresee an end of Maxon.
Maxon is a large and respected provider of 3D tools. Cinebench is not their product. It's just a small package containing their rendering engine, a simple model and a script for running the test. It wasn't designed with gamers in mind and it will still serve it's purpose if all the gamers decide to leave.


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## devjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

I am not a huge fan of the store version either but it's their right to publish it where they want to and you don't know why they did that. But someone who puts together such a software has their reason why. Computer games are often first released on one platform and later for a broader audience. Ever thought of that?



> They simply asked you to take it from an official download location* and not to modify the files.*


well said! Even if they were not modified, they want to give their users a save certified download.

disclaimer: i am a dev myself and work in the hardware industry


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2019)

notb said:


> What a sad day. Here we have a "PC enthusiast" community that doesn't respect the work of software developers.


The discord being expressed isn't about respect. It's a free benchmark utility and the websites in question were providing a portable version.


notb said:


> Guys, why do you hate computers so much?


We don't. We find short-sighted, illogical, nitwited actions like the one Maxon made here irritating as hell.


notb said:


> *They simply asked you to take it from an official download location and not to modify the files.* Is that really so difficult to accept?


First, no one modified the files, they were extracted as-is. Second, the download location requires users to (1) have Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, (2) setup Microsoft account and (3) use the Windows store. Think about that in the context of benchmarking.


notb said:


> Cinebench is not their product. It's just a small package containing their rendering engine, a simple model and a script for running the test.


Which makes this move seem even more asinine and illogical.


devjunkie said:


> I am not a huge fan of the store version either but it's their right to publish it where they want to and you don't know why they did that. But someone who puts together such a software has their reason.


To which we can say "No Thank You" and give them the two fingered salute. They will lose exposure which will likely result in lost revenue. This was a boneheaded move regardless of reason.


----------



## devjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> To which we can say "No Thank You


I agree! Then you should say that you would like to have a non-store version. My only point is, I understand why a company still wants to keep control over where and how their (certified) software is available.

disclaimer: i am a dev myself and work in the hardware industry


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 11, 2019)

devjunkie said:


> Then you should say that you would like to have a non-store version.


Why should we need to when a portable version has been available for previous versions? It's a bonehead move, plain and simple.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Why should we need to when a portable version has been available for previous versions? It's a bonehead move, plain and simple.


It doesn’t matter. You have no “right” to the software. It is theirs to say how they want it distributed, no matter how shortsighted that decision may be, noticed yours.  I honestly thought you were not from the generation that feels like everything is owed to them.  Please prove me right.  This is about respect for other people’s property and wishes.


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## ghazi (Mar 11, 2019)

I wonder why the people defending Maxon here are forgetting that previous versions of Cinebench have always been available for download on TPU and Guru3D. What is the actual reason for the change? You people act like Maxon is doing you a favor by making Cinebench, there are plenty of alternatives to choose from.


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## devjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Why should we need to when a portable version has been available for previous versions? It's a bonehead move, plain and simple.



So they see and get their users feedback. As you said, a *previous *version was portable, but not this one. Maybe they have an exclusive contract, we all don't know. And if they went this way, it's their right. That's how software license agreements work


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## ghazi (Mar 11, 2019)

devjunkie said:


> So they see and get their users feedback. As you said, a *previous *version was portable, but not this one. Maybe they have an exclusive contract, we all don't know. And if they went this way, it's their right. That's how software license agreements work



It's also our right to criticize it and call it a dick move. What's your point?


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## Patriot (Mar 11, 2019)

AMD should be happy about maxon's stupidity... this version uses AVX which hurts zen compared competition.

Speaking of stupidity, lot of software devs in here that don't understand freeware licensing and the limitation of post download EULA's.
It's important to do things the right way. 

Speaking of... I would imagine a smart little coder is making a script to make you a portable version...
Downloading fresh from MS servers and avoiding the store eula... and extracting to make a portable... Which still is not modifying or bypassing their download source requirement.  AS the EULA is when you go to run it... distribution clauses are a bit um... LATE.

If you are going to be a good coder, charge or don't charge, don't claim it's free and then be a dick about freely being used.
They do have the right to limit where you download it and redistribute to OTHERS... but there are certain consumer rights about... the right to backup...yadayadayada...


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

ghazi said:


> It's also our right to criticize it and call it a dick move. What's your point?


The POINT is, it may be a “dick move”, but it is Maxon’s right to make that dick move.  It is their property.  However it was in the past is the past.

The sense of entitlement and disrespect for others’ rights and property is strong here in TPU.  It’s sad.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> It doesn’t matter. You have no “right” to the software.


I'm not saying I or anyone else does..


rtwjunkie said:


> It is theirs to say how they want it distributed, no matter how shortsighted that decision may be


I agree, not saying they don't.


rtwjunkie said:


> I honestly thought you were not from the generation that feels like everything is owed to them.


I'm not. Let's not make it personal.


rtwjunkie said:


> This is about respect for other people’s property and wishes.


You're missing the point. They are going from making a well liked and utilized benchmark provided in an easy to use and convenient way, to limiting people to a specific platform that is inconvenient and not well liked. They were expecting everyone to like it? Betting they didn't think it through, or worse, let a control-freak do the thinking. Regardless, it was not a wise move, indeed very narrow-minded. We don't have to like it. Because of this boneheaded move, they will find a lot less people promoting their retail software. Reason? If they are going to display such a nitwitted mentality with this simple benchmark, that invokes little in the way of confidence that their other software will not meet with similar distasteful choices. Hard pass.


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## ghazi (Mar 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> The POINT is, it may be a “dick move”, but it is Maxon’s right to make that dick move.  It is their property.  However it was in the past is the past.
> 
> The sense of entitlement and disrespect for others’ rights and property is strong here in TPU.  It’s sad.



You are so dense it's unbelievable. Nobody is saying that Maxon does not have the legal right to do this. People are saying that this decision they've made is awful, and your response is "BUT YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO THEIR SOFTWARE". Well guess what, I'm not required to like or use their software either, and I'm even more clearly within my rights than they are to express my dissatisfaction with their behavior.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

ghazi said:


> You are so dense it's unbelievable. Nobody is saying that Maxon does not have the legal right to do this. People are saying that this decision they've made is awful, and your response is "BUT YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO THEIR SOFTWARE". Well guess what, I'm not required to like or use their software either, and I'm even more clearly within my rights than they are to express my dissatisfaction with their behavior.


No.  Most are saying they should have a right to it because of past versions.  As for dense, describe your education level and accomplishments in the world.  I’m sure everyone would love to hear.  In the meantime, since I’m so “dense”, welcome to the denseness of the ignore wall, since you want to call names.


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## ghazi (Mar 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> No.  Most are saying they should have a right to it because of past versions.  As for dense, describe your education level and accomplishments in the world.  I’m sure everyone would love to hear.  In the meantime, since I’m so “dense”, welcome to the ignore wall.


You are putting words in other people's mouths. They are not saying that due to the past versions they have a legal right to do the same with this version, but that Maxon SHOULD allow you. The fact that you have to resort to a passive aggressive ad hominem and ignore people who disagree with you says all I need to know about you.


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## hat (Mar 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> The POINT is, it may be a “dick move”, but it is Maxon’s right to make that dick move.  It is their property.  However it was in the past is the past.
> 
> The sense of entitlement and disrespect for others’ rights and property is strong here in TPU.  It’s sad.


I believe people are mostly upset because now, if you want Cinebench R20, you have to deal with the Windows Store and all the crap that comes along with it. I bet if Maxon put the same portable download on their site (or wherever), and at the same time forbid that download to be anywhere else, people wouldn't be as upset. It seems to me, this is a quick cash grab earned by jumping in bed with MS at the expense of seriously inconveniencing the userbase they're supposedly making this program for.


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## ghazi (Mar 12, 2019)

hat said:


> I believe people are mostly upset because now, if you want Cinebench R20, you have to deal with the Windows Store and all the crap that comes along with it. I bet if Maxon put the same portable download on their site (or wherever), and at the same time forbid that download to be anywhere else, people wouldn't be as upset. It seems to me, this is a quick cash grab earned by jumping in bed with MS at the expense of seriously inconveniencing the userbase they're supposedly making this program for.


I don't think anyone would particularly mind if they did that.


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## notb (Mar 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> The discord being expressed isn't about respect. It's a free benchmark utility and the websites in question were providing a portable version.


They're not selling or giving you anything. They're letting you use Cinebench. They still own it.
They have the normal rights connected with owning something. They can tell you how you're allowed to use it. It's a general law, not limited to software.

You don't understand the law fundamentals that are needed in this case. And my guess is you don't want to understand them. It's the same discussion we had in the software keys topics.
I don't know if you're an anarchist or you just financially benefit from this approach. I'm not going to judge.
You're very persistent in spreading your theories, but anyone who learned basics of copyright should instantly notice you're wrong. The fact that so few people are objecting simply shows that not many people on this forum understand the topic. Which, as I said earlier, is bizarre in XXI century in general, and on a PC forum in particular.



> We don't. We find short-sighted, illogical, nitwited actions like the one Maxon made here irritating as hell.


Your opinion about their decision doesn't give you the right to ignore law. So you're an anarchist after all? I'm disappointed.


> First, no one modified the files, they were extracted as-is.


Well, I could have said that better. Law protects the program (the creation), not the files.
In any case, EULA forbids you from sharing the files. So even if we assume extracting is OK, giving the result to someone else is not.


> Second, the download location requires users to (1) have Windows 8, 8.1 or 10, (2) setup Microsoft account and (3) use the Windows store.


So? It also requires you to have a PC. How is this even relevant?


> Think about that in the context of benchmarking.


Context of benchmarking? WTF? You're breaking the law because you want to benchmark?


> Which makes this move seem even more asinine and illogical.


Why? Maybe they know their clients moved to Win 10 and supporting other platforms isn't needed? Or maybe they made a mistake? Or maybe they're stupid?
It doesn't matter.
Your need to benchmark and the other party being stupid are both on a very long list of things that don't let you violate their rights.


> To which we can say "No Thank You" and give them the two fingered salute. They will lose exposure which will likely result in lost revenue. This was a boneheaded move regardless of reason.


So say "no thank you" and get another benchmark instead of violating the EULA of this one.
And no, their product is not intended for gamers and they won't lose revenue. The only thing that's quite certain at this moment is that the shift to MS Store will lower their costs.

Funny how you worry so much about their financial well-being, but at the same time you're fine with stealing their property. Nice.


----------



## jihadjoe (Mar 12, 2019)

Regeneration said:


> You're all welcome to use Linpack Xtreme for benchmarking:
> 
> https://www.techpowerup.com/download/linpack-xtreme/
> 
> ...



I use Linpack for stability testing, but IMO the appeal behind Cinebench was that it was kinda representative of a real-world rendering load, especially with R20 finally updating the codebase to be more consistent with current versions of C4D, which does have a solid presence in the 3D rendering market. Linpack by itself is just another synthetic benchmark.


----------



## notb (Mar 12, 2019)

hat said:


> I believe people are mostly upset because now, if you want Cinebench R20, you have to deal with the Windows Store and all the crap that comes along with it.


Assuming you already have Windows 10 and Windows Store comes preinstalled, what "crap" are you exposed to by using it?


> It seems to me, this is a quick cash grab earned by jumping in bed with MS at the expense of seriously inconveniencing the userbase they're supposedly making this program for.


What cash is there to grab? It's free software. If anything, they'll actually have to PAY for being on Windows Store ($99 annually).

And gamers are not their userbase. Maxon has no business in it. Cinebench is just a hardware test for their software.
Unless you're trying to convince me that OC hobbyists that use Cinebench are more likely to buy Maxon software for their professional cine business. Good luck with that.

Maybe they did it on purpose? Maybe they got fed up with thousands of e-mails accusing them of bias towards CPU brand X or Y? Maybe they wanted to cement their professional image?
We don't know and we shouldn't care. They do things by the book and gamers are breaking the law. End of story.


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## Sora (Mar 12, 2019)

Something that caught my eye about their distribution permissions is that they have unintentionally permitted anyone who downloads it from windows store to share it as they see fit, the redistribution license cites "This site" being the maxon website, which doesn't include Microsofts store.


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## Athlonite (Mar 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Some people don't and won't use the "Windows Store", because (A) they are not running Windows 10, (B) they prefer not to use "Apps" model of software distribution or (C) they have privacy concerns and refuse to use the Windows Store as a result. There are likely more reasons someone might avoid Microsoft's to-little-to-late approuch to software distribution.
> The only area of software where that is true is gaming. Everything else has excellent options for every sector of computing.




Or D: There store does not work properly and can not install anything from it (despite several MS people having a go via remote desktop to fix it it still shits a brick on installs)


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## MrGenius (Mar 12, 2019)

I've had this same stupid ass argument with game modders. They want to put something up on the internet for free download so everyone can use it. And then turn around and bitch about people downloading it for free...because it got uploaded somewhere that wasn't the original place they uploaded it to. BIG F@$#ING DEAL!!! What's the difference? "Well the difference is blah blah blah respect blah blah blah". No it IS NOT about respect, and there is NO DIFFERENCE. "Then I'm keeping my mods for me and my friends only, and not uploading them anywhere anymore". Well good for you, you selfish discriminatory ASSHOLE!!! Wouldn't it be great if everybody acted like that? Wouldn't that make the world a MUCH better place? In case you take my sarcasm as seriousness...NO IT WOULD NOT!!! It would be a world full of selfish self-centered discriminatory dickheads with a complete lack of generosity and/or kindness towards their fellow man. Is that what you really want? Maybe you need ALL the stuff that you've ever got for free, or was given to you, taken away to realize how much worse your life would be. And speaking of life, why don't we start with that then? You didn't pay for, or get permission to own, that either.


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## notb (Mar 12, 2019)

Sora said:


> Something that caught my eye about their distribution permissions is that they have unintentionally permitted anyone who downloads it from windows store to share it as they see fit, the redistribution license cites "This site" being the maxon website, which doesn't include Microsofts store.


No. Software distributed via Windows Store is covered by Windows Store EULA if not stated otherwise.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/#STANDARDAPPLICATIONLICENSETERMS
Point 3D (ironically). You're not allowed to share.


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## Sora (Mar 12, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> Doesnt their EULA state you need their permission.



Their eula is unenforceable.

If theres no license document in the package, you can't know you can't distribute it unless you run it.



notb said:


> No. Software distributed via Windows Store is covered by Windows Store EULA if not stated otherwise.
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/#STANDARDAPPLICATIONLICENSETERMS
> Point 3D (ironically). You're not allowed to share.



Microsofts store eula is big words and completely unenforceable outside of the US.


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## notb (Mar 12, 2019)

Sora said:


> Their eula is unenforceable.
> 
> If theres no license document in the package, *you can't know you can't distribute it unless you run it*.


This sentence is quite fascinating, honestly. 

And the terms are, obviously, available on Windows Store.
When you open an item in Windows Store, there's a link saying "Terms of transaction". It leads here:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/storedocs/terms-of-sale
The interesting part of this document: "12. Software Licenses and Use Rights". Among other things, it contains the link that I've posted earlier.


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## devjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

1. If a company cares about their users, they can't allow anyone else hosting it. They could be held liable if they accept that their software gets distributed by whoever wants to. Think about, what would happen if there would ever be malware in such package and someone could proof they were ok that people host it on their own

2. According to the article, Maxon asked politely if they could take it down. It just crossed my mind, that they don't even have proper download statistics if someone else hosts it. So who could blame them

3. If you don't like their store version (or even if you think that was a "stupid dick move"), just tell them politely! If enough users tell them they will find for sure a solution. If NOT enough people complain, well then it's just a few people where the effort is not worth it. At the end let me close this with: software agreements and licenses are complex and difficult to understand. Everything might be shiny and easy to do, but bringing everything under one hood is really not an easy task. Since I am a (hobby) developer myself, it's a horror - for end users, devs and companies.



Sora said:


> Microsofts store eula is big words and completely unenforceable outside of the US.


As said n my previous post, software agreements and licensing is so complex, I wouldn't be able to say yes or no - I just doubt that though.

Disclaimer: I am a dev myself and work in the hardware industry


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

@notb With the exception of what's below, not going to respond to you further as you're doing what you do so often, putting words in peoples mouths, making assumptions and generally taking things out of context.


notb said:


> Funny how you worry so much about their financial well-being, but at the same time you're fine with stealing their property. Nice.


Stealing? Are they charging money for Cinebench? Can't steal what is being given freely. Context much? And for the record, I didn't provide the portable versions, so I'm doing nothing.


devjunkie said:


> 1. If a company cares about their users, they can't allow anyone else hosting it. They could be held liable if they accept that their software gets distributed by whoever wants to. Think about, what would happen if there would ever be malware in such package and someone could proof they were ok that people host it on their own


That's a liability problem. The people injecting the malware would be directly and singularly responsible.


devjunkie said:


> 2. According to the article, Maxon asked politely if they could take it down. It just crossed my mind, that they don't even have proper download statistics if someone else hosts it. So who could blame them


They asked TPU politely. They made threats elsewhere.


devjunkie said:


> 3. If you don't like their store version (or even if you think that was a stupid dick move), just tell them!


Thanks for the tip. Way ahead of you. For the record folks see the following if you'd like to give Maxon a thought or two about the matter;
https://www.maxon.net/en-us/header-meta-navigation/about-maxon/contact/


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## devjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a liability problem. The people injecting the malware would be directly and singularly responsible.


I am not a lawyer and have no deeper insights about the legal system, but I wouldn't be surprised if paragraph 123.XYZ.AB covers "careless act" or something. I just threw in my two cents why I could think someone can't accept third-party hosters


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## hat (Mar 12, 2019)

notb said:


> Assuming you already have Windows 10 and Windows Store comes preinstalled, what "crap" are you exposed to by using it?



Some people are running Windows 10 without a Microsoft account (required for the Windows Store). Some people may not want a Microsoft account. Some people may not want to use the Windows Store. Some people actively go out of their way to nuke the Windows Store and "modern apps" from their systems. If you are someone who does one or more of these things, then Cinebench R20 is not available to you. Not legitimately, anyway.



notb said:


> What cash is there to grab? It's free software. If anything, they'll actually have to PAY for being on Windows Store ($99 annually).



I admit that's pure speculation on my part, but I can't imagine why they would have such a hard on for the Windows Store, exclusively, and actively submit takedown requests anywhere where people are sharing the portable version. Of course, what they do with their software is up to them, but if I wrote a benchmarking program and then released it, for free, I would just be happy people were using my program.



notb said:


> And gamers are not their userbase. Maxon has no business in it. Cinebench is just a hardware test for their software.
> Unless you're trying to convince me that OC hobbyists that use Cinebench are more likely to buy Maxon software for their professional cine business. Good luck with that.



Cinebench is a benchmarking tool. It even says as much on their own Cinebench page. As far as OC hobbyists buying other Maxon software... maybe? If you're an OC hobbyist who also has rendering/graphics design needs? That's a little bit off topic though, and missing the point of the thread.

But, Cinebench is definitely a benchmarking tool, through and through. It's useful for measuring system performance (as Maxon themselves say on the Cinebench page) and they released it to the public.



notb said:


> Maybe they did it on purpose? Maybe they got fed up with thousands of e-mails accusing them of bias towards CPU brand X or Y? Maybe they wanted to cement their professional image?
> We don't know and we shouldn't care. They do things by the book and gamers are breaking the law. End of story.



I'm not sure how being exclusively on the Microsoft Store would prevent them from being accused of bias (which is silly in the first place). I'm also not sure how that would help them look professional. But you are right that I don't know their motive behind doing so... and I don't care. I just won't use their benchmarking tool, and I'm not gonna be butthurt about not seeing it the next time I look at a CPU review.

As far as breaking the law, well, I have yet to condone illicit sharing of the R20 portable version. They wrote the software, so as far as I can tell, they're within their legal right to restrict distribution however they want. That doesn't mean they're still going to be popular with the benchmarking crowd after forcing everyone on the Microsoft Store.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

hat said:


> That doesn't mean they're still going to be popular with the benchmarking crowd after forcing everyone on the Microsoft Store.


Exactly. I suspect much of the community is going to tell Maxon to take their previously useful utility and stick it up their collective poopers.

All of this effectively makes them hypocrites as they don't seem to have any issues with the "Extreme" version of R15 discussed here;
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/cinebench-extreme-edition-mod-by-hwgeek.252293/


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## hat (Mar 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Exactly. I suspect much of the community is going to tell Maxon to take their previously useful utility and stick it up their collective poopers.



I suspect much of the community just won't use the tool and forget about it by next week  but either way, their tool is going to be less popular now.


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## Wavetrex (Mar 12, 2019)

Solution: *Stop using* Cinebench.
Boycot Maxon and all their products.

The only way they'll learn.

(But I can only dream, countless hordes of w10 zombies will use UWP store anyway)


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## R0H1T (Mar 12, 2019)

Yup put your monies where your mouth is, stop using Maxon benches period.


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## devjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

Wavetrex said:


> Solution: *Stop using* Cinebench.
> Boycot Maxon and all their products.
> The only way they'll learn.



And why don't you just use their form which they have to ask for user input so they can improve? https://www.maxon.net/en/support/suggestions/ So much wind, rage and wasted life time because a free software is only available in a specific online store, unbelievable


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## Wavetrex (Mar 12, 2019)

@devjunkie Did you just make an account here to "defend" this horrible behavior from Maxon ? (And others, including the gods of take-down notices, legal threats and actual lawsuits - Apple)

Mandatory question: How much did they pay you to register on various forums and spread smelly bio-matter around?


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## R0H1T (Mar 12, 2019)

Oh come on - no need to get nasty, Maxon is doing what every profit making company does. You can choose to boycott their products if you feel their practices are bad, that's it.


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## MazeFrame (Mar 12, 2019)

notb said:


> And the terms are, obviously, available on Windows Store.


Wich is not available on Windows 7.
How would you like a game on steam that does not work on Win7 because it requires the MS-Store, but only tells you about that on the MS-Store?


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## notb (Mar 12, 2019)

hat said:


> Some people are running Windows 10 without a Microsoft account (required for the Windows Store). Some people may not want a Microsoft account. Some people may not want to use the Windows Store. Some people actively go out of their way to nuke the Windows Store and "modern apps" from their systems.


You don't need a Microsoft account to use Windows Store (since 2016). "MS Windows Expert"...
Everything else is "some may not want to". So it's nothing. You can't give examples of any objective downsides.


> If you are someone who does one or more of these things, then Cinebench R20 is not available to you. Not legitimately, anyway.


So maybe it's not. You still talk about Cinebench like something you deserve and has been forcefully taken away from you.


> I admit that's pure speculation on my part, but I can't imagine why they would have such a hard on for the Windows Store, exclusively


Because it lowers their costs? Because in 2019 it's NATURAL for users to download software from official stores/repositories? Just like they do in Apple ecosystem, in Android and in Linux?

People constantly criticize Windows Store for the lack choice. But now, when a mainstream app is added to it, suddenly so many are against because this and that.


> if I wrote a benchmarking program and then released it, for free, I would just be happy people were using my program.


You're not thinking like an enterprise. They are.

If you're against their approach, write a benchmarking tool and release it under GPL. No one is stopping you.


> Cinebench is a benchmarking tool. It even says as much on their own Cinebench page.


Yes, and it works perfectly as one. But it's been created as a test for their clients and then got popular among a wider community.
You are allowed to use it even if you don't care what Maxon is actually doing. But they don't care. And the exposure to gamers may have resulted in unwanted side-effects.


> I'm not sure how being exclusively on the Microsoft Store would prevent them from being accused of bias (which is silly in the first place).


Because many gamers will leave the platform. Simple as that.
And how is that silly? It's just speculation. It's not more silly than your thing about being paid by MS. 


Wavetrex said:


> Solution: *Stop using* Cinebench.
> Boycot Maxon and all their products.


Exactly! I'm sure there are countless users on this forum. Boycott them and I'm sure they'll change their mind.. :-D



MazeFrame said:


> Wich is not available on Windows 7.
> How would you like a game on steam that does not work on Win7 because it requires the MS-Store, but only tells you about that on the MS-Store?


You are required to comply to law even if you don't know it (or don't understand it). This is the fundamental rule of a legal system.

OK, so you're going on TPU - a site you respect. They offer a portable Cinebench. You don't know it violates Maxon license and you download it.
You haven't broken the license. Read it. Using a illegal copy is not against the law. You can't be held responsible. But you can be required to remove an unauthorized copy (even if you paid for it).
The person who shares or modifies software is responsible.

It's like with the piracy thing that used to be popular a decade ago. Buying a bad copy wasn't a crime - just like buying stolen physical goods isn't (if you don't know about it). Downloading a bad copy also wasn't a crime (if you didn't know!). You could only be forced to return/remove it.
But using torrent (where you upload as well) was enough to hold you responsible.

That's how this has always worked - even before "software" became a thing. You go to a store, they tell you a product is fine. In case of most products there's no real way of learning that they've been stolen.
The party that steals and fences stuff can be held responsible. You can only be forced to give these goods back.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

Wavetrex said:


> @devjunkie Did you just make an account here to "defend" this horrible behavior from Maxon ? (And others, including the gods of take-down notices, legal threats and actual lawsuits - Apple)
> 
> Mandatory question: How much did they pay you to register on various forums and spread smelly bio-matter around?


How was what he said a defense of Maxon? He is guilty of speaking common sense.  Instead of people acting entitled to Maxon’s software where they want it to be and blasting them on this forum, they each could actually focus that energy on the one place that it has the possibility of making a difference.  By responding on their site, and using clear, levelheaded language to voice their displeasure, you CAN make a difference if enough people do it.  Bitching about it on TPU is just a lot of wasted hot air.


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## notb (Mar 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> How was what he said a defense of Maxon? He is guilty of speaking common sense.  Instead of people acting entitled to Maxon’s software and blasting them on this forum, if they each could actually focus that energy on the one place that it has the possibility of making a difference.  By responding on their site, and using clear, levelheaded language to voice their displeasure, you CAN make a difference if enough people do it.  Bitching about it on TPU is just a lot of wasted hot air.


Exactly. We're not defending Maxon. They're not a side in this argument. They likely have no idea this discussion is happening. And they're already "defended" by law, so there isn't much we could add there.

What we're actually doing is giving a free common sense / copyright lesson...

The Cinebench thing is really unimportant. Maybe Maxon will change their policy, maybe they won't. We know gamers will move to another benchmark if it's necessary - there are countless options. And it's just a benchmark. It's not something you can't live without (at least so I though...).

For me it's still shocking how badly understood copyright is on this forum. I don't know the reason. Is it the anarchy? Is it the anti-enterprise approach?

You're required to pass a copyright course on your first year of study. I believe it's also taught in high-schools lately. I kind of live in a belief that everyone around me understand the topic pretty well.
This is XXI century, the Information Revolution. The rights to intellectual property are as important as the rights to material property have been for ages.
And man... I have a feeling that many of the "but EULA is hard to find" people would have no doubts shooting a trespasser...


----------



## GorbazTheDragon (Mar 12, 2019)

EuroTy said:


> DRM-free ? Walled garden ? Why the hell did you installed Windows 10 in first place ? Just use Linux if don't like it. The thing is that for the end-user is much easier to press one button than 3-4.


Sorry most of us still bench on W7 and even XP...

hwbot in fact requires W7 for a lot of submissions


----------



## newtekie1 (Mar 12, 2019)

notb said:


> You are required to comply to law even if you don't know it (or don't understand it). This is the fundamental rule of a legal system.



Except EULA and Terms of Service are contract law, and in contract law you are not required to abide by the contract if you aren't aware of the contract and agree to it.  Otherwise, I'd be able to just make up a contract saying you are required to give me all your worldly possessions, then sue you to enforce it without you ever even knowing what I put in the contract.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Except EULA and Terms of Service are contract law, and in contract law you are not required to abide by the contract if you aren't aware of the contract and agree to it.  Otherwise, I'd be able to just make up a contract saying you are required to give me all your worldly possessions, then sue you to enforce it without you ever even knowing what I put in the contract.


There is this. Why is it so few understand this point?


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 12, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Except EULA and Terms of Service are contract law, and in contract law you are not required to abide by the contract if you aren't aware of the contract and agree to it.  Otherwise, I'd be able to just make up a contract saying you are required to give me all your worldly possessions, then sue you to enforce it without you ever even knowing what I put in the contract.



Its a breach of contract. MS or Maxon can sue you for breach. MS for breaching their ToS or Maxon for violating their EULA.  Maxon send out a courtesy notice letter to the breaching parties to make them aware. At which point they can comply but the breaching parties have been made aware of it. The included potential legal action which was taken as a threat is their right to use the legal system and enforce that breach of contract the partys are now aware of.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> Its a breach of contract. MS or Maxon can sue you for breach. MS for breaching their ToS or Maxon for violating their EULA. Maxon send out a curtisy letter to the breaching parties to make them aware. At which point they can comply but the breaching parties have been made aware of it. The included potential legal action which was taken as a threat is their right to use the legal system and enforce that breach of contract the partys are now aware of.


There's just one problem with that. What would be the venue of jurisdiction? Many software contracts state a scope of jurisdiction, however there are many city, county and state laws(for example, where I live) that require any civil action of a certain dollar amount be handled in the local courts, IE for a civil matter the plaintiff in question must go to the area of residence/operation of the person/entity they wish to file against and file in that court. The threat of legal action is hollow for an individual because Maxon is not going to go out of their way to sue a single person over what is being given away freely. Just not worth the expense.

Even if Guru3D or TPU had refused to take the portable version down, Maxon would still have to prove damages, which because they're making the software in question available at no charge, can't happen. The absolute worst thing they could do legally is issue a DMCA takedown order, at their own expense.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> There's just one problem with that. *What would be the venue of jurisdiction? *Many software contracts state a scope of jurisdiction, however there are many city, county and state laws that require any civil action of a certain dollar amount be handled in the local courts, IE for a civil matter the company in question much go to the area of residence of the person/entity they wish to file against and file in that court. The the threat of legal action is hollow for an individual because Maxon is not going to go out of their way to sue a single person over what is being given away freely. Just not worth the expense.
> 
> Even if Guru3D or TPU had refused to take the portable version down, Maxon would still have to prove damages, which because they're making the software in question available at no charge, can't happen. The absolute worst thing they could do legally is issue a DMCA takedown order, at their own expense.



Now that they are aware of their violation they can read the ToS or Eula. Maxon EULA states Germany.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> Now that they are aware of their violation they can read the ToS or Eula. Maxon EULA states Germany.


Unenforceable in the United States, unless they come here, even with existing treaties. They're not going to do that.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Unenforceable in the United States, unless they come here, even with existing treaties. They're not going to do that.



Guess the breaching parties have nothing to worry about then.  They should put those files back up


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> Guess the breaching parties have nothing to worry about then.  They should put those files back up


TPU is based in Germany.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 12, 2019)

Xzibit said:


> Guess the breaching parties have nothing to worry about then. They should put those files back up


That's not what I said. Re-read.


rtwjunkie said:


> TPU is based in Germany.


Even if that is true, TPU host servers are located in the US. This is where the legalities get tricky. If TPU is HQ'd in Germany, but it's servers are hosted in the US, the venue of jurisdiction might have to be held in the US because that is were the files in question are stored. However there might be a bit of German law that requires the case be heard in German courts.


----------



## hat (Mar 12, 2019)

Wavetrex said:


> w10 zombies


Uuuuuuuugh.... aaaaaaaaaps

?


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 12, 2019)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> I doubt spewing venom here is going to do justice when the folks who has beef with UWP are partially at fault for forcing sites like TPU to "write" portable versions of the benchmark software, knowing full well that there will be consequences but couldn't care much because they're not taking responsibility. Sure Maxon is unfair when it comes to protecting their software but making a portable version without their consent kinda make things worst.



I wonder what the actual EULA had to say on this.  It's freeware so one wouldn't think it's harsh at first glance, but apparently one would be wrong.



rtwjunkie said:


> TPU is based in Germany.



They are HQ'd in the USA when I worked there.  A recent move, I was told.

In other news, I see they finally stripped me of all my badges (Supporter and Staff).  Good going guys (no I am serious, it was kinda getting weird at this point)


----------



## W1zzard (Mar 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I see they finally stripped me of all my badges (Supporter and Staff). Good going guys (no I am serious, it was kinda getting weird at this point)


I simply forgot


----------



## OneMoar (Mar 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I wonder what the actual EULA had to say on this.  It's freeware so one wouldn't think it's harsh at first glance, but apparently one would be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DEMOTEEEEEEEEEEEEED DEMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTEDDDDDDDD DEEEEEEEEMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTED


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> They are HQ'd in the USA when I worked there. A recent move, I was told.


Ah, ok, thanks, buddy.  A quiet change indeed.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 12, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> DEMOTEEEEEEEEEEEEED DEMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTEDDDDDDDD DEEEEEEEEMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTED



I love you too, OneMoar.



W1zzard said:


> I simply forgot



A man after my own heart.  I never finish anyth


----------



## Ahhzz (Mar 13, 2019)

No Personal Attacks. Keep it civil, keep it on topic.


----------



## hat (Mar 13, 2019)

notb said:


> You don't need a Microsoft account to use Windows Store (since 2016). "MS Windows Expert"...
> Everything else is "some may not want to". So it's nothing. You can't give examples of any objective downsides.


I'll admit I didn't know that. But then, how would they keep track of who owns what? A separate "Windows Store" account that is technically not a Microsoft account? As for the MS Windows Expert bit, well, I didn't put that badge there. I also don't claim to be an "expert" on Intel processors. But that's a different topic...

I don't know if you should be looking for objective downsides, here. It's not that cut and dry. This is a matter of opinion, whether or not an individual wants to use the Windows Store. That makes it inherently subjective.



notb said:


> So maybe it's not. You still talk about Cinebench like something you deserve and has been forcefully taken away from you.



Now this is where I just have to say I think you have an... interesting interpretation of my comments. How do I have this sense of entitlement when I specifically say I'm not butthurt about it, they hold the rights to do as they wish with their software, I just won't use it?



notb said:


> Because it lowers their costs? Because in 2019 it's NATURAL for users to download software from official stores/repositories? Just like they do in Apple ecosystem, in Android and in Linux?
> 
> People constantly criticize Windows Store for the lack choice. But now, when a mainstream app is added to it, suddenly so many are against because this and that.



I don't think it cost them anything when TPU et al. were hosting it either. In fact, you yourself mentioned it actually costs them something to put their stuff on the Microsoft store. That may well be cheaper than hosting it themselves on their own site (especially if they did so exclusively), but I doubt W1zzard was ready to send them a bill for hosting their benchmark here. Of course, relying on TPU and other sites like ours to host it would be a fantastically bad way to reach their "intended audience", so I agree that the Microsoft store would help them there, if they want to do it in a cheap way. Why they want it exclusively at the Microsoft store, and are actively enforcing this remains a mystery to me, but they can do as they please with their software. 

As for the repositories comment... I can't speak much for Linux, as I haven't used it much, but I do remember using the repository for a few things, mostly because it was easier than installing software the "normal way" in Linux. It's a lot more complex than Windows. iOS, as I'm sure you're aware, is a walled garden, and while this is is a whole different debate, they do get a lot of criticism for that because it _does_ limit choice. 

I got used to the Play Store on Android because, well, that's just how Android (mostly) works. I've also done a ton of things without the Play Store. As for my PC, though, I've never considered the thought of such a central app repository. If I was interested in some software, I went to their site and got it. The closest thing I use to anything like that on PC is Steam... which I don't think quite qualifies as being similar to the Play Store, or the Microsoft store.

It's an interesting concept, but I just don't think it will work on PC, in the same way Windows 8 didn't work on PC. PCs are not tablets or smartphones.

I don't think anybody is against the Microsoft store, here. I'm not interested in using it, but I'm not _against _it. What some of us are against, is being forced to use the Microsoft store (or not, if you just don't use the software), as Maxon has made it clear that it's the one and only place to get their benchmarking tool.



notb said:


> You're not thinking like an enterprise. They are.
> 
> If you're against their approach, write a benchmarking tool and release it under GPL. No one is stopping you.



Fair point. I still don't suppose I would have an issue with someone else hosting my free benchmarking program, but I also don't run a company. 



notb said:


> Yes, and it works perfectly as one. But it's been created as a test for their clients and then got popular among a wider community.
> You are allowed to use it even if you don't care what Maxon is actually doing. But they don't care. And the exposure to gamers may have resulted in unwanted side-effects.



Well, we both already understand that anyone can find Cinebench useful, even if you're not interested in their other products, so there's that. Of course, some gamers are also interested in benchmarking, but it's not like putting Cinebench on the Microsoft store exclusively blocks any gamer's access to it. 



notb said:


> Because many gamers will leave the platform. Simple as that.
> And how is that silly? It's just speculation. It's not more silly than your thing about being paid by MS.



I'm not sure why they would have such a problem with gamers, or how this would significantly cut down on gamers in their ecosystem, if it really mattered to them. Despite all this, we already have a rather extensive Cinebench R20 results thread here at TPU.

Honestly, what we have here is a few people who are unhappy about the exclusivity at the Microsoft store. Some of us would rather have our kickass portable version, for whatever reason that may be. Kind of similar to that whole Metro Exodus thing...


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 13, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Even if Guru3D or TPU had refused to take the portable version down, Maxon would still have to prove damages, which because they're making the software in question available at no charge, can't happen.



If they are somehow making a per-download kickback at the ms-store, perhaps it could.  But I kind of doubt that...



Ahhzz said:


> No Personal Attacks. Keep it civil, keep it on topic.



OneMoar and I have a mutual "mess with each other" relationship.  He knows this and I know this.  None of that was a personal attack.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 13, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> If they are somehow making a per-download kickback at the ms-store, perhaps it could. But I kind of doubt that...


I doubt it too.


R-T-B said:


> OneMoar and I have a mutual "mess with each other" relationship. He knows this and I know this. None of that was a personal attack.


Seemed like an attack from the outside.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 13, 2019)

Ah shucks, I wanted to post this on the last page


----------



## notb (Mar 13, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Except EULA and Terms of Service are contract law, and in contract law you are not required to abide by the contract if you aren't aware of the contract and agree to it.  Otherwise, I'd be able to just make up a contract saying you are required to give me all your worldly possessions, then sue you to enforce it without you ever even knowing what I put in the contract.


Again, we're discussing some basic aspects of living in 2019, not this particular case.
Whenever you sign a contract, be it installing programs or getting a mortgage, you're required to confirm that you've read it and you agree with the terms. Check it.


lexluthermiester said:


> Unenforceable in the United States, unless they come here, even with existing treaties. They're not going to do that.


So again, POV of someone who finds ways to bend law and benefit. If only your theories were correct...
Now you moved to another one: I'm a USA citizen, I can do whatever I want in other countries, because they won't bother going after me. *Excellent.*

More importantly, why are we talking here about law technicalities? Especially since you're really wrong about most things.
This is a PC enthusiast forum. Why can't you simply show some respect to a fellow member of the "PC community"?
Maxon is not trying to take something from you. They simply want to control how their software is distributed.



hat said:


> I'll admit I didn't know that. But then, how would they keep track of who owns what? A separate "Windows Store" account that is technically not a Microsoft account?


Why would they need to track anything? It's just a repository.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure they have access to your windows key.


> I don't think it cost them anything when TPU et al. were hosting it either. In fact, you yourself mentioned it actually costs them something to put their stuff on the Microsoft store. That may well be cheaper than hosting it themselves on their own site (especially if they did so exclusively), but I doubt W1zzard was ready to send them a bill for hosting their benchmark here. Of course, relying on TPU and other sites like ours to host it would be a fantastically bad way to reach their "intended audience", so I agree that the Microsoft store would help them there, if they want to do it in a cheap way. Why they want it exclusively at the Microsoft store, and are actively enforcing this remains a mystery to me, but they can do as they please with their software.


You have to at least consider a theory that Maxon just doesn't give a f... whether gamers use this benchmark or not. They have nothing from it other than exposure. What could be the ratio of Cinebench users that are gamers and 3D artists (not even clients of Maxon)? 10000:1 seems like a safe bet.
Sure, one can believe that a gamer will choose Maxon software because they know this brand from a benchmark (which I find funny, honestly).
But this exposure had negative results as well. Like accusations of being biased for one company or another. Or e-mails with suggestions from gamers that are just spam in their corporate e-mail.
Gaming community is a lot less mature than the people Maxon usually works with.

Maybe at some point Maxon gives an official response. Maybe they'll allow portable versions and sharing.
But it's more likely they don't care at all and even don't follow this whole shitstorm. 



> As for the repositories comment... I can't speak much for Linux, as I haven't used it much, but I do remember using the repository for a few things, mostly because it was easier than installing software the "normal way" in Linux. It's a lot more complex than Windows. iOS, as I'm sure you're aware, is a walled garden, and while this is is a whole different debate, they do get a lot of criticism for that because it _does_ limit choice.
> 
> I got used to the Play Store on Android because, well, that's just how Android (mostly) works. I've also done a ton of things without the Play Store. As for my PC, though, I've never considered the thought of such a central app repository. If I was interested in some software, I went to their site and got it. The closest thing I use to anything like that on PC is Steam... which I don't think quite qualifies as being similar to the Play Store, or the Microsoft store.


So, you're criticizing Windows Store, because you're not used to using repositories and software managers which... actually are the "normal way" in the computing world. Manual installing using files you have to download from the net is a very weird approach, very specific to Windows.
And I can already tell you that moving to repositories / software managers is the direction Windows will be taking in the next decade. This is what a big chunk of Windows users expect, but also what the new generation of clients is used to (those that have grown up with a smartphone). And it's easier, and safer. And it results in less mess in the OS.

If you don't use Linux and haven't had much experience with software managers, try chocolatey. Maybe it'll convince you. Or maybe it won't. Either way, you'll at least know how working with Windows may look like 10 years from now.
And it's not like you can say "I don't like it, I'm leaving MS" because, as I said, this is how every other remotely mainstream OS works.


----------



## Aerpoweron (Mar 13, 2019)

I was mailing Maxon that i can't download Cinebench R20 with Windows 7. I don't want to create a Microsoft account, but i have to, to get Cinebench with Windows 7 using the MS store via Website.

They didn't answer my question if the minimum specs are Win7, as statet on Maxons website, or Win10 as stated in the Win10 store.







Tanslation:

Dear Mr. --------

Cinebench is currently only available via the stores (Microsoft and Apple store), but it is planned to offer a direct download on our website (Maxon website).
Please excuse the delay.

Kind regards,
Sandro Wojcik


----------



## notb (Mar 13, 2019)

Aerpoweron said:


> Cinebench is currently only available via the stores (Microsoft and Apple store), but it is planned to offer a direct download on our website (Maxon website).
> Please excuse the delay.


OMG. You had an issue with software and you asked the authors for help instead of sharing your hatred on forums. What a weird idea.

@hat it seems there will be a direct download possibility. Enough for you?


----------



## Aerpoweron (Mar 13, 2019)

Thanks, notb 

Asking does not hurt, worst case you can get is a "NO".

Going crazy and writing if they possibly offer a portable version as well. And bringing up the article from Techpowerup. I just want to let the left hand know what the right one is doing


----------



## Wavetrex (Mar 13, 2019)

Just as an idea, Cinebench R15 exists on NuGET/Chocolatey, an absolutely wonderful tool to manage free Windows software very easily and almost automatically.
Basically, it's the "Microsoft Store" but without accounts and working on all recent windows OS'es (Vista and up).

It's still fairly unknown to the large populace at this point, and the list of offered software caters more towards developers/content creators, but there are plenty (and growing) number of packages available.

For example Wizzard's *GPU-Z* is on the platform (not sure if managed by Wizzard himself or someone else is).
I like this platform because it's community driven, not owned by one specific megacorporation (like MS, Apple, Google with their respective stores)

Going back to MAXON, when they do decide to offer a standalone version, someone in contact with them should point them towards offering it on Chocolatey as well.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 13, 2019)

Aerpoweron said:


> I was mailing Maxon that i can't download Cinebench R20 with Windows 7. I don't want to create a Microsoft account, but i have to, to get Cinebench with Windows 7 using the MS store via Website.
> 
> They didn't answer my question if the minimum specs are Win7, as statet on Maxons website, or Win10 as stated in the Win10 store.
> 
> ...



Good job!  This is exactly what I said people should do if it truly concerned them.


----------



## Aerpoweron (Mar 13, 2019)

Just got another reply from Maxon support:

A portable version is either planned nor allowed, as far as the support person knows. But he has no detailed information about that.





Wavetrex, thanks for the info about the NuGET/Chocolatey software. I'll take a look at it and see if i can recommend it to the support person. I think i am in level 1 support so far. So don't get your hopes up. I won't recommend it, when cinebench R15 is not directly from Maxon released on there.
I am also thinking about to ask my way up, why they won't allow a portable version. Would be nice to know the reason behind that.

Anyways, bed time for me now. I should be asleep for hours by now...


----------



## notb (Mar 13, 2019)

I hope TPU staff is following this thread. They could learn a lot from a forum member with 29 messages. 




Aerpoweron said:


> I won't recommend it, when cinebench R15 is not directly from Maxon released on there.


Correct. Package is maintained by "a bloke" and there is no information that it's an official download location supported by Maxon.
Maxon own EULA is very similar to that of Windows Store. No modifying, no sharing. Basic stuff.
All pre R20 standalone versions were just as illegal as the one discussed now. It's just that Maxon hasn't bothered (or hasn't noticed).


----------



## EsaT (Mar 14, 2019)

notb said:


> And I can already tell you that moving to repositories / software managers is the direction Windows will be taking in the next decade. This is what a big chunk of Windows users expect, but also what the new generation of clients is used to (those that have grown up with a smartphone). And it's easier, and safer. And it results in less mess in the OS.


Easier indeed...
https://arstechnica.com/information...-million-installs-contains-aggressive-adware/
It certainly would have taken lot more work for those criminals to infect that many phones without that "safer" Google Play...

Any better safety of some single central repository/download source relies entirely on how much tighter "preventive censorship" there is for getting stuff in there.
And if that doesn't catch unsafe stuff, there's instantly huge amount of users exposed to downloading that malware.
Because all eggs are in the same basket.

And Microsoft wants Windows Store pushed everywhere, because they want to join Apple, Google and Valve in having own money press.
No wonder that Valve "forgot" Half Life (Episode) 3 when it's just so much easier for them to make money from Steam.


----------



## hat (Mar 14, 2019)

notb said:


> Why would they need to track anything? It's just a repository.
> Anyway, I'm pretty sure they have access to your windows key.



My Google/Gmail account, which is what grants me access to the Play Store, is what Google uses to keep track of any app(s) I may have purchased. Free apps anyone can download, of course, but paid apps (such as ePSXe for Android), well, you have to purchase first, and that info is tied to my Google account... unless there are no such apps on the Microsoft Store, then it wouldn't be necessary.



notb said:


> You have to at least consider a theory that Maxon just doesn't give a f... whether gamers use this benchmark or not. They have nothing from it other than exposure. What could be the ratio of Cinebench users that are gamers and 3D artists (not even clients of Maxon)? 10000:1 seems like a safe bet.
> Sure, one can believe that a gamer will choose Maxon software because they know this brand from a benchmark (which I find funny, honestly).
> But this exposure had negative results as well. Like accusations of being biased for one company or another. Or e-mails with suggestions from gamers that are just spam in their corporate e-mail.
> Gaming community is a lot less mature than the people Maxon usually works with.
> ...



Well, they released a benchmarking tool which is "useful for anyone", and now are actively pulling the "portable version" of the latest version of said benchmark. Some people who liked the previous (portable) version might not be happy about that, even if they were only interested in the benchmark (and they likely are, you brought up the idea of gamers using other Maxon software, not me ). It's up to them whether or not they care about that.




notb said:


> So, you're criticizing Windows Store, because you're not used to using repositories and software managers which... actually are the "normal way" in the computing world. Manual installing using files you have to download from the net is a very weird approach, very specific to Windows.
> And I can already tell you that moving to repositories / software managers is the direction Windows will be taking in the next decade. This is what a big chunk of Windows users expect, but also what the new generation of clients is used to (those that have grown up with a smartphone). And it's easier, and safer. And it results in less mess in the OS.
> 
> If you don't use Linux and haven't had much experience with software managers, try chocolatey. Maybe it'll convince you. Or maybe it won't. Either way, you'll at least know how working with Windows may look like 10 years from now.
> And it's not like you can say "I don't like it, I'm leaving MS" because, as I said, this is how every other remotely mainstream OS works.



That's not a normal way of installing programs for me. I've been using PCs since the very early 00's, and since that point up to now, I've never used such a repository on PC. Unless you count Steam, which I find... debatable. I've used such a repository on Android, because that's just how Android is (but I've also done a lot of things _without_ the Play Store), but that's about as far as that goes.

As for Linux, I felt their repository was there to make things more convenient for Linux noobs, as installing software the usual way in Linux is... difficult. So they made the repository to automagically do it for you. Sure, I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I got as a first time Linux user.



notb said:


> @hat it seems there will be a direct download possibility. Enough for you?



Sure!



EsaT said:


> Easier indeed...
> https://arstechnica.com/information...-million-installs-contains-aggressive-adware/
> It certainly would have taken lot more work for those criminals to infect that many phones without that "safer" Google Play...
> 
> ...



Well, that's one benefit that comes with the walled garden that is iOS. There's less software, but there's also a lot less crap like this. Google hardly seems against ads, though. It's pretty tough to get a working adblocker on Android.


----------



## notb (Mar 15, 2019)

EsaT said:


> Easier indeed...
> https://arstechnica.com/information...-million-installs-contains-aggressive-adware/
> It certainly would have taken lot more work for those criminals to infect that many phones without that "safer" Google Play...
> 
> ...


Have you thought this through? Actually, it's the opposite of what you said. 

All eggs are in the same basket anyway, because an application is prepared by a single author (and that's the party that would have to put malware into the package available in the official location).

This is exactly the situation described in the article you've linked. Authors of apps included the adware. Or rather: the purpose of these apps was to spread adware. Stores like Google Play simply make it easier to get to users.
Alternative download locations could have been edited by other parties, so *risk of malware goes up*, not down.

Moreover, on places like Google or Windows Store all apps are somehow checked (at least scanned for viruses) by the store.
Don't be afraid of stores. Just don't install apps made my unknown people - just like (I hope) you don't run ".exe" files that you've found in random places on the web or got via e-mail. 


hat said:


> Well, they released a benchmarking tool which is "useful for anyone", and now are actively pulling the "portable version" of the latest version of said benchmark. Some people who liked the previous (portable) version might not be happy about that, even if they were only interested in the benchmark (and they likely are, you brought up the idea of gamers using other Maxon software, not me ). It's up to them whether or not they care about that.


As I mentioned earlier: portable versions of previous Cinebench (and making them available on 3rd party download servers) have been violating Maxon general license as well.
Now, I can't rule out the possibility that a mainstream website (like cnet.com) or a large repository (Chocolatey) didn't get a permission from Maxon.
On the other hand: the way TPU is run, I'm pretty sure they haven't even thought of that. 

So the big question is: why has Maxon started to enforce the license now? We don't know and there are countless possible reasons.
I suggested earlier that they're a pro-oriented company with somehow small client base that pays well. They may be fed up with all the noise gaming community generates.
Someone would have to ask Maxon. You usually expect journalists to do that, but since none are around, I place my hopes on guys like @Aerpoweron . 


> That's not a normal way of installing programs for me.


Of course. That's a normal way for almost everyone who spent most their time on Windows.
I'm just saying that Windows is an outlier OS in this regard (albeit one with 90% market share).
As long as OS situation looked like it did in 90s, MS hasn't really had a reason to change this. That's what their customers knew, liked and expected.
However, today not only virtually everyone has a *nix-based smartphone, but the first generation of people brought up with smartphones enters the job market. And they want a store. Microsoft has foreseen this - they have a software manager (pretty neat one as well). They just need to populate it with apps.


> As for Linux, I felt their repository was there to make things more convenient for Linux noobs, as installing software the usual way in Linux is... difficult. So they made the repository to automagically do it for you. Sure, I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I got as a first time Linux user.


That's definitely a wrong impression.  But an interesting one.
So you think a tool that makes using an computer easier is made for _noobs_? As opposed to whom? Why do you want to make advanced Linux users' lives harder?


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## Aerpoweron (Mar 16, 2019)

Hey everyone. The problem i have with the Windows store, is that you don't have much control about your apps or programs. But this opinion is bases on the game Gears of War Ultimate and the awful experience i had installing it. Half of the comments were, a year back, were that it was not working, download was broken... On other games as well. And to Download 50GB which fully block your internet connection without any option to limit it is terrible. Then you have a reconnect (yay Germany every 24 hours) the download starts again... 

Please correct me (and i really hop you do) the these times are over with the windows store. Especially since there is hope for my loved Gears of War games now all coming to PC 

To Maxon, i've written a longer mail to them, and suggested they get in contact with TPU for example. To get a portable version especially for the overclocking guys which run borderline stable systems. Maybe with a official an confirmed list of Benchmark results.  There is no direct download at the Maxon site yet as of this moment. 
I'm still hopeful to get some cooperation between Maxon and platforms like TPU. Since both profit from each others resources and knowledge


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## notb (Mar 16, 2019)

Aerpoweron said:


> Hey everyone. The problem i have with the Windows store, is that you don't have much control about your apps or programs.


Well, it's a double-edged sword. The whole idea is to make installing and updating as easy as possible, so some limitations are necessary. 


> On other games as well. And to Download 50GB which fully block your internet connection without any option to limit it is terrible.


Yes, Windows Store doesn't have an option to limit bandwidth and *it shouldn't have*.

This is a system-wide policy, affecting other programs. Let's say you have 100 Mbps connection. You limit Windows Store to 70 Mbps and Steam to 60 Mbps. If they start downloading at the same time, there's no way they would be able to communicate this. So you'll still end up with a locked connection and no guarantee which app will download first.

Hence, it should be governed by a single program. And it is. Windows has this built-in. It's just a question of how low-level would you like to go. ;-)
From the top:
1) You can download some sort of graphical bandwidth manager - a program that lets you set limits, priorities etc. I know only one: NetLimiter, but it's somehow expensive for what you need.
2) You can limit Windows apps by a feature in settings (it affects both Update and Store):
https://fossbytes.com/limit-download-speed-windows-update/
3) You can apply bandwidth limits via group policy editor or in the registry:
https://errorfixer.co/set-windows-store-bandwidth/
4) and finally: you can edit bandwidth quota policy via powershell (script it):
https://errorfixer.co/throttle-bandwidth-apps-windows-10/

Basically: (2) should do exactly what you want, assuming it works.
(3) is messy.
Ideally you either go for a robust tool (1) or the manual approach (4).


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## hat (Mar 18, 2019)

I mean, I get it... the Windows Store doesn't have that option and you're presenting alternative options to control bandwidth use, but those options are pretty terrible (and point 2 seems non-applicable, the article covers Windows Update only?), short of using a third party tool, which (should) be unnecessary. What I find odd here is you say (even in bold) that it shouldn't have an option for this?

Personally, I've never had trouble managing bandwidth. Not even when I was still living with my parents ages ago, and my dad and I were both running bit torrent applications and playing games online. And that was with, at best, 5mbps down, 512kbps up. If you are trying to download a bunch of crap on both Steam and the Windows Store with limits which, when combined, exceed your entire downstream capacity, you have another issue somewhere... probably between the computer and the chair.


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## notb (Mar 18, 2019)

hat said:


> those options are pretty terrible


Why?


> (and point 2 seems non-applicable, the article covers Windows Update only?)


It is said to affect Windows Store as well (and it did a while ago).
Obviously, this is very easy to check. I'll do that when I get back from work. 


> short of using a third party tool, which (should) be unnecessary.


You don't need a 3rd party tool. Network badwidth is controlled by the OS (options 2-4 from the list).
I totally agree that a friendly GUI app is a better option for casual users.
MS hasn't made it, but there are at least a few options that look OK on paper (both free and paid). As I said: I only used NetLimiter (which is possibly the best option, but somehow expensive).


> What I find odd here is you say (even in bold) that it shouldn't have an option for this?


Yes. In-app limiters and schedulers have their function, obviously. For example you can limit programs to only run heavy downloads at night. I used a metered connection at some point, but the limits where off between midnight and 7 am. So I liked the fact that downloads in things like Steam and Deluge can be blocked during the day.
You can do the exact same thing for Windows apps by saying your connection is metered (or, once again, using the more powerful terminal interface).

But by limiting bandwidth in each software you can't solve the problem @Aerpoweron has.
Few apps (e.g. Windows Store and Steam) can run download jobs at the same time and will block your connection anyway.

The only effective solution is to have a single program that limits other applications. That way you can limit software groups and define priorities.
If you run this program on the PC, you can limit particular apps. If you run it on router, you can limit (balance) all PCs in your network.


> If you are trying to download a bunch of crap on both Steam and the Windows Store with limits which, when combined, exceed your entire downstream capacity, you have another issue somewhere... probably between the computer and the chair.


That really depends how you use your gear and what needs/expectations you have.
I have Steam, GOG, Windows Store, Battle.net app etc all set to auto update. It's not a problem because I gave things like communicators and browsers higher priority. So even if every game I have suddenly gets an update, my PC is still usable.
But more importantly, I've also set priorities/limits on the router. TV has the highest priority (otherwise watching is really painful). A tiny server is second. Whatever is left goes to the other machines (PCs, phones).


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## hat (Mar 19, 2019)

I think those options are terrible because that isn't something that a typical user who would be interested in an easy app store would be doing. Personally, I'm comfortable with gpedit or even registry edits, given a guide that tells me where to find the option/key I need to change, but I'm not your average user. We seem to agree on this point. 

I also agree that a third party app would offer more control over everything, but I also don't like a lot of unnecessary things running on my computer. This includes such an app. I'd rather make use of a bandwidth control option in the app I'm already using, and if the Windows Store aims to be this central repository where everybody goes to install everything, it needs such an option. You shouldn't have to control an app that's supposed to make managing other apps easier with gpedit options (which not everyone even has access to) or worse yet, registry hacks. Or another app altogether.


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 24, 2019)

Someone learned a thing or two from M$. Remember that time M$ imprisoned a man for selling counterfeit windows on CDs that was actually just the free download (25 cents for the trouble)? All b/c they don't want PCs refurbished. No one has done anything and won't. All you need are a team of psychopath lawyers and a brain-dead, senior citizen judge.


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## Aerpoweron (Mar 24, 2019)

I just checked, no stand alone download of Cinebench R20 on Maxons website (yet?)



TheGuruStud said:


> Someone learned a thing or two from M$. Remember that time M$ imprisoned a man for selling counterfeit windows on CDs that was actually just the free download (25 cents for the trouble)? All b/c they don't want PCs refurbished. No one has done anything and won't. All you need are a team of psychopath lawyers and a brain-dead, senior citizen judge.



That was ages ago TheGuruStud, but Apple has refined the process even further. Describing every refurbished part as counterfeit and actively trying to hinder any repair. And on top you get badly designed hardware with sub par critical parts added.

So MS has some really catching up to do which i really hope they never will.

Anyways that was all off topic 
I've wrote quite a long mail to Maxon about how the Cinebench is usually used by most people. And they replied that it will be redirected to the right people. That was one week ago, so wish us all luck


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 24, 2019)

Aerpoweron said:


> I just checked, no stand alone download of Cinebench R20 on Maxons website (yet?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I knew it! You're one of those evil-doers turning macs into PCs by replacing 0 ohm resistors (which is only one of many blatant consumer fraud tactics, they magically fail all the time)! You sick bastard.

Perhaps maxon is just really pissy they don't get a pallet of cash from intel anymore. Anyone remember the 10 intel logos plastered all over the website back in the day? lol
I'm surprised they weren't bribed into completely rewriting everything.


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## xtreemchaos (Mar 24, 2019)

its a classic case of maxon biting the hand that feeds them in a roundabout way, id be happy using the old one if thay want to be funny after all a benchmark is a benchmark.


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## Aerpoweron (Apr 2, 2019)

Looks like cinebench is available as direct download on the Techpowerup site again 

And there is a direct download on the Maxon website 
https://www.maxon.net/de/produkte/cinebench-r20-overview/


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