# Sony Adds Cinavia DRM Protection in as Automatic PS3 Download



## Wile E (Jul 31, 2010)

Wasn't sure where to put this, it's technically a software issue, so I put it here.

http://www.ps3news.com/PlayStation-3/sony-adds-cinavia-drm-protection-in-as-automatic-ps3-download/

This is bad news for those of use that back up and stream their BluRays to preserve their discs. The only thing I have going for me is the fact that I haven't updated my PS3 past 3.15 fw, so I don't think it will effect my back ups.

This makes me unhappy.


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## Phxprovost (Jul 31, 2010)

umm what?  more information is needed about this, the only thing i use my ps3 for these days is watching movies from my media server


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## Wile E (Jul 31, 2010)

It's an inaudible audio watermark. Even transcoding does not eliminate it. If you have a Cinavia enabled player and you rip a movie with this technology, the player will not play it. 

The player picks up on the signal, then checks to see if what you are playing is in it's original format, like a BD Rom. If it;s playing over the network or on a BD-R or whatever, it will stop playback, or stop the audio.

Here's a thread with more info on Doom9: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155777

This is very bad news for people that backup all their BDs and just watch them over the network on the PS3. I'm in this category, but I still haven't updated my ps3, so I'm good for now.

Supposedly, you are safe on firmwares before 3.41 on the PS3. But then you lose online play, new games, and PS Network. 

All new BD players will have it, and all manufactured since late 2009 have the component, but just needs activated.

Now, how long before BD's won't play unless your player supports this tech? I'll hold out on firmware 3.15 as long as possible, but it's looking more and more like a true HTPC is the only way to go.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

Anyone come across this in real world usage yet, or come across any additional info?


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## newtekie1 (Aug 1, 2010)

I just updated to the 3.41 firmware today, but I haven't played any movies through it.  Will this potentially effect DVD rips as well, or just Blu-Rays?  Most of my movies are DVD rips, so I hope it doesn't effect them...


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

if i had a BD drive i would i stream all our DVD's through the mainframe. which is picked up by the PS3 upstairs and played on my living rooms home theartre. The problem is i havent backed up my Blu rays because i only have DVD drives.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

SO far, I've only seen reports of a couple of BD's having it. But, they are using it in theaters right now, and it's even picked up with CAM recodings. That's how well this drm works.

If you rip a BD with this DRM and stream it to your 3.41+ PS3 (which is what I do with all my BD's), it will kill playback. When the DRM is triggered, it checks to make sure you are using the media the original is supposed to be on, so if you are playing from anything other than the BR Rom, it kills playback. This includes BD-R, USB, internal HD or across the network, and it still works even if you transcode.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wile E said:


> SO far, I've only seen reports of a couple of BD's having it. But, they are using it in theaters right now, and it's even picked up with CAM recodings. That's how well this drm works.
> 
> If you rip a BD with this DRM and stream it to your 3.41+ PS3 (which is what I do with all my BD's), it will kill playback. When the DRM is triggered, it checks to make sure you are using the media the original is supposed to be on, so if you are playing from anything other than the BR Rom, it kills playback. This includes BD-R, USB, internal HD or across the network, and it still works even if you transcode.



intresting. iv been reading up on it. i wonder if it would kill the signal if it was being streamed from say my disk drive? or maybe it can be circumvented by being mounted in deamon tools? and set deamon tools as a BD-rom/BD drive?


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> intresting. iv been reading up on it. i wonder if it would kill the signal if it was being streamed from say my disk drive? or maybe it can be circumvented by being mounted in deamon tools? and set deamon tools as a BD-rom/BD drive?



I doubt it would work, because the PS3 just sees it as a network stream, not as a disc.

Now, if someone would write an ISO mounter for ps3, perhaps that would work.

This just tells me PS3 need CFW more than ever. I'm not updating my original 60GB past 3.15 until that day comes. Looks like I might be forced to not buy anymore ps3 games and just buy a standalone BD player for original discs when they likely make it mandatory to have this as a supported feature in new movies. Sony's actions of the past few months have left a bitter taste in my mouth over this console. It used to be my favorite. But I'm not gonna go buy a second one so I can keep linux and streaming my discs on the old one, and play the newest games and movies on a newer one. I'll skip the new games, thanks.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

> According to the official site, the watermarking works by "comparing the source of the audio to the format in which a movie was released (ie theatrical or commercial disc), and if the watermarked audio source detects a difference, the movie will either be mute (but most likely not play at all.



technically. if the disk drive or virtual disk drive was shared and you had a movie in raw BD format im not sure it would trip the protection. It is being streamed very true. but I dont think it is being encoded/converted So i dont think it would shut it down.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> technically. if the disk drive or virtual disk drive was shared and you had a movie in raw BD format im not sure it would trip the protection. It is being streamed very true. but I dont think it is being encoded/converted So i dont think it would shut it down.



Yes it would because the PS3 would not recognize it as a disc. It would only recognize it as a streamed movie. A disc drive shared to the ps3 behaves like a folder, not a disc drive. The movie does not have to be transcoded at all, it just has to be in a medium other than the original.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Yes it would because the PS3 would not recognize it as a disc. It would only recognize it as a streamed movie. A disc drive shared to the ps3 behaves like a folder, not a disc drive. The movie does not have to be transcoded at all, it just has to be in a medium other than the original.



your right i was thinking to far into it. damn. this is bad news. i might need to get irritated.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm already irritated with the current state of PS3. Very upsetting. Maybe I can find a good price on a used one that I'll keep updated, then I'll closet this original 60GB until it either gains some sort of collector status, or it gets cfw.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wile E said:


> I'm already irritated with the current state of PS3. Very upsetting. Maybe I can find a good price on a used one that I'll keep updated, then I'll closet this original 60GB until it either gains some sort of collector status, or it gets cfw.



apparently the AACS adoption agreement leans tword the adoption of cinavia by companies to be optional. So not all players and or systems will have it even if they were manufactured at the end and after 09. Seeing how popular the PS3 is and how its also the most popular BD player im sure sony  was compensated handsomely for enabling it.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

According to someone on Doom 9 that read the agreement, it's optional on the discs, but it won't be optional on the players if they are to be AACS compliant.


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## oily_17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Interesting reading, been thinking of getting a PS3 for this exact thing, playing my discs across the network.
This may well throw a spanner in the works, will have to look out for a second hand unit, maybe.It wont be used for games so not too bad.



> Supposedly, you are safe on firmwares before 3.41



Do you know if 3D is enabled in the earlier firmwares ?, as I would be interested in this feature as well.Will have to do some more reading on this.

EDIT:Seems 3D game support was released first and 3D BluRay will be added later, so likely no streaming ripped 3D movies.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wile E said:


> According to someone on Doom 9 that read the agreement, it's optional on the discs, but it won't be optional on the players if they are to be AACS compliant.



sorry for not being clear thats what i meant. they need to have the capability but they wont need to have it enabled.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> sorry for not being clear thats what i meant. they need to have the capability but they wont need to have it enabled.



Just to be clear on what I was saying, to make sure we are on the same page:

Optional on discs, but mandatory on the hardware.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Just to be clear on what I was saying, to make sure we are on the same page:
> 
> Optional on discs, but mandatory on the hardware.



yes


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## Mussels (Aug 1, 2010)

since its a very specific audio that is picked up by the PS3, it wont be long before tools exist (or get updated) to remove it from the audio stream.


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## slyfox2151 (Aug 1, 2010)

since its so high up on the frequency, its would be fairly simple to remove it from the audio track.


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## 95Viper (Aug 1, 2010)

Um, I don't use the PS3, but I ran across this, IMO, even if you wished to upgrade the firmware... I would take pause.

Playstation 3 Firmware Update 3.41 Accidentally Bricks Consoles During Hard Drive Upgrades

PlayStation®3 Updates

PS3 Firmware 3.41 causing HDD problems


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## newtekie1 (Aug 1, 2010)

slyfox2151 said:


> since its so high up on the frequency, its would be fairly simple to remove it from the audio track.



I was kind of thinking that also.  So if you re-encode the audio, and use a good encoded that eliminates everything beyond human hearing, then the watermark should be eliminated, and the protection shouldn't be triggered, right?


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## Mussels (Aug 1, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I was kind of thinking that also.  So if you re-encode the audio, and use a good encoded that eliminates everything beyond human hearing, then the watermark should be eliminated, and the protection shouldn't be triggered, right?



you'd need more than a standard re-encoding to pull it off, you'd need some kind of filter to remove the specific frequencies used.

it should be quite possible, just that extra step throws off the casual pirate until the tools catch up.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 1, 2010)

Mussels said:


> you'd need more than a standard re-encoding to pull it off, you'd need some kind of filter to remove the specific frequencies used.
> 
> it should be quite possible, just that extra step throws off the casual pirate until the tools catch up.



that wouldnt work at all. the channel lasts the entire audio track and the frequency ranges. it cant be filtered witha  simple 15hz pass. and besides that kind of filtering would damage the audio on the track. so its not just "not ment for the casual pirate" their really isnt a point in doing it.


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## Wile E (Aug 2, 2010)

Cutting out frequencies doesn't work. It's been tried. It survives all trancoding as well. Even up and downmixing. Somebody even went so far as taking their camcorder, pointing it at the wall, and recording the sound as they played a Cinavia movie over the cam's mic, and the resulting file still triggered it.

From what's known so far, any process that will defeat it will be destructive to the audio quality. OK for many, not ok for those of us that just remux their BD's into mkvs.


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## Mussels (Aug 2, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> that wouldnt work at all. the channel lasts the entire audio track and the frequency ranges. it cant be filtered witha  simple 15hz pass. and besides that kind of filtering would damage the audio on the track. so its not just "not ment for the casual pirate" their really isnt a point in doing it.



if its possible for the audio to be there without a human hearing it, its possible to remove it without a human hearing a difference.


it may not be easy, but someone WILL figure out how to do it.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 2, 2010)

i download 1080p DTS 5.1 blu-ray rips all the time and never have a problem streaming them using ps3 media server. i also own about 25 blu-rays and watch them from time to time after a first viewing. i dont see a need to back them up.


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## Wile E (Aug 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i download 1080p DTS 5.1 blu-ray rips all the time and never have a problem streaming them using ps3 media server. i also own about 25 blu-rays and watch them from time to time after a first viewing. i dont see a need to back them up.



Read more about the issue, then post. Only a few BD's have this so far.

I backup BD's because they are expensive and I have kids. I like to keep my discs safe.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 2, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Read more about the issue, then post. Only a few BD's have this so far.
> 
> I backup BD's because they are expensive and I have kids. I like to keep my discs safe.



i have read plenty about the "issue." i know it only affects a few BDs but I have played the BDs in question that have been ripped and they play just fine using PS3 Media Server. i cannot say about playing them directly from the PS3 though.


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## kid41212003 (Aug 2, 2010)

Me and "me" friends are sailing the Caribbean either ways.

I watch bluray disc on PS3, and bluray rips on pc. It's a matter of switching the screen plugs for me .


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## Wile E (Aug 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i have read plenty about the "issue." i know it only affects a few BDs but I have played the BDs in question that have been ripped and they play just fine using PS3 Media Server. i cannot say about playing them directly from the PS3 though.



You are the only one then, or you haven't received the update. It's already been reported that PS3MS does not fix the issue. And brief tests do not always work. It happens at different points in the movies.



kid41212003 said:


> Me and "me" friends are sailing the Caribbean either ways.
> 
> I watch bluray disc on PS3, and bluray rips on pc. It's a matter of switching the screen plugs for me .



Unfortunately, my PC is away from my home theater, and my PC does not have the surround setup that my theater does.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 2, 2010)

Wile E said:


> You are the only one then, or you haven't received the update. It's already been reported that PS3MS does not fix the issue. And brief tests do not always work. It happens at different points in the movies.




hrm. well according to that link this has actually been around for quite some time. not sure why i have not had any issue with it. i will keep my fingers crossed.

also, if people are looking for another way around it you can always transcode your rips woth something like mkv2vob and play them using another upnp device.


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## Wile E (Aug 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> hrm. well according to that link this has actually been around for quite some time. not sure why i have not had any issue with it. i will keep my fingers crossed.
> 
> also, if people are looking for another way around it you can always transcode your rips woth something like mkv2vob and play them using another upnp device.



The tech has been around for a while, but has only recently been activated in players.

If the device doesn't support the Cinavia, you should be fine. But for people that only have the ps3 for playback, this can be a problem.

I generally just use MakeMKV, RIPBot264, or ClownBD to demux then remux into an mkv. Depends on what I want to do with the audio and subs.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 2, 2010)

Wile E said:


> The tech has been around for a while, but has only recently been activated in players.
> 
> If the device doesn't support the Cinavia, you should be fine. But for people that only have the ps3 for playback, this can be a problem.
> 
> I generally just use MakeMKV, RIPBot264, or ClownBD to demux then remux into an mkv. Depends on what I want to do with the audio and subs.



so i guess now there is no way SONY will ever implement native mkv playback?


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## Wile E (Aug 4, 2010)

Probably not. I really wish somebody would come out with a CFW.


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## Mussels (Aug 4, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Probably not. I really wish somebody would come out with a CFW.



a what?


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## Wile E (Aug 4, 2010)

Sorry. Scene speak. lol 

*C*ustom *F*irm*W*are.


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## Mr McC (Aug 4, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> so i guess now there is no way SONY will ever implement native mkv playback?





Wile E said:


> Probably not. I really wish somebody would come out with a CFW.



I assumed that the implementation of DRM was one of the main purposes of Blu-ray, after all, these are the people who gave us Securom. I read somewhere that HD DVD actually offered higher quality, but as was the case with Betamax vs VHS, the inferior product has triumphed, or rather Sony's marketing, pressure and pay-offs have triumphed. 

Technological advance is something to be applauded; however, when I hear the word Sony thrown into the equation I automatically assume that this will entail tighter control of areas where we previoulsy enjoyed freedoms, in short, they abuse us. Mkv playback clearly goes against their marketing strategy.


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## DrPepper (Aug 4, 2010)

Aw ffs just as I decide hell I'l get a ps3 because I want to stream media to it. Sony are out to piss me off.


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## Mussels (Aug 4, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Aw ffs just as I decide hell I'l get a ps3 because I want to stream media to it. Sony are out to piss me off.



imo, get teh cheapest nettop you can, slap 7 on it and have fun.


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## slyfox2151 (Aug 4, 2010)

Mussels said:


> imo, get teh cheapest nettop you can, slap 7 on it and have fun.



it would then need HDMI out... i havnt exacly seen a lot with that


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## Mussels (Aug 4, 2010)

slyfox2151 said:


> it would then need HDMI out... i havnt exacly seen a lot with that



all the ION ones have it.


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## DaMulta (Aug 5, 2010)

I've been hit with this issue on two video files. I re-downloaded a different size video, and it worked just fine.

It looks to be the way some rips are made IDK.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 5, 2010)

Mr McC said:


> I assumed that the implementation of DRM was one of the main purposes of Blu-ray, after all, these are the people who gave us Securom. I read somewhere that HD DVD actually offered higher quality, but as was the case with Betamax vs VHS, the inferior product has triumphed, or rather Sony's marketing, pressure and pay-offs have triumphed.
> 
> Technological advance is something to be applauded; however, when I hear the word Sony thrown into the equation I automatically assume that this will entail tighter control of areas where we previoulsy enjoyed freedoms, in short, they abuse us. Mkv playback clearly goes against their marketing strategy.



Don't believe everything you read, HD DVD did not offer higher quality.  An HD DVD disc holds 15GB per layer, so 30GB total per disc.  On the other hand Blu-Ray holds 25GB per layer, 50GB total per disc.  So you could almost fit an entire dual-layer HD DVD on a single layer Blu-Ray.  More space means either better quality video, or more extra features included with the disc, or both.


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## Mussels (Aug 5, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Don't believe everything you read, HD DVD did not offer higher quality.  An HD DVD disc holds 15GB per layer, so 30GB total per disc.  On the other hand Blu-Ray holds 25GB per layer, 50GB total per disc.  So you could almost fit an entire dual-layer HD DVD on a single layer Blu-Ray.  More space means either better quality video, or more extra features included with the disc, or both.



the short version (which you half got into) is that while some HD-DVD movies looked better than the blu ray versions at launch, that was just because of how they were made, NOT blu rays fault.


with more space available, bluray had the potential to use lower compression, and therefore look better from day one.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 5, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Don't believe everything you read, HD DVD did not offer higher quality.  An HD DVD disc holds 15GB per layer, so 30GB total per disc.  On the other hand Blu-Ray holds 25GB per layer, 50GB total per disc.  So you could almost fit an entire dual-layer HD DVD on a single layer Blu-Ray.  More space means either better quality video, or more extra features included with the disc, or both.





Mussels said:


> the short version (which you half got into) is that while some HD-DVD movies looked better than the blu ray versions at launch, that was just because of how they were made, NOT blu rays fault.
> 
> 
> with more space available, bluray had the potential to use lower compression, and therefore look better from day one.



true, the VQ and AQ of a movie on a bluray disc versus an hddvd disc has nothing to do with the color of the laser or the size layers. judging by the reviews at blu-ray.com, over half of all the blurays released are poorly encoded by the studios. they could have used more space but did not even bother. for instance, the gladiator bluray that came out several months ago is not that great of quality. i own it and am not impressed. however, they are re-releasing a "remastered" version and supposedly it is far superior as the studio went through frame by frame with a superior codec and balancing noise reduction with the genuine film look.


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## Wile E (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr McC said:


> I assumed that the implementation of DRM was one of the main purposes of Blu-ray, after all, these are the people who gave us Securom. I read somewhere that HD DVD actually offered higher quality, but as was the case with Betamax vs VHS, the inferior product has triumphed, or rather Sony's marketing, pressure and pay-offs have triumphed.
> 
> Technological advance is something to be applauded; however, when I hear the word Sony thrown into the equation I automatically assume that this will entail tighter control of areas where we previoulsy enjoyed freedoms, in short, they abuse us. Mkv playback clearly goes against their marketing strategy.



HD DVD wasn't any better in quality and also used AACS drm. BD is actually capable of higher quality, due to it's higher capacity. Cinavia would've been just as easy to add to HD DVD anyway, seeing that it embedded in the audio signal and not any type of encryption.


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## DrPepper (Aug 6, 2010)

Mussels said:


> imo, get teh cheapest nettop you can, slap 7 on it and have fun.



I've got a cheap nettop but the PS3 is for Gran Turismo 5 mainly with the added benefits of being a lean mean porno displayin' machine and having linux on it. Pretty much both of which are removed. I feel sony's next move is to send a hit squad to my house when I actually get one.


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## Wile E (Aug 6, 2010)

Yeah, same reasons I bought mine, Dr.


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