# Headphone Change Time...Denon MM400 or Oppo PM-3?



## Kursah (Jun 10, 2015)

Well it has come...the day I feared. My beloved HiFiMan HE-400's are gonna get wrapped up and sold...with the extra pairs of velour and pleather pads. 

I LOVE the sound of these headphones, but sadly the open design and other reasons are forcing me to sell them. They'll be posted here on TPU soon. I'm trying to delay as-long-as I can.

Moving on I am looking seriously at the *Denon MM400*'s and *Oppo PM-3*'s. Both are in the $300-400 range. Both are full-size closed back headphones that are held in high regards to audio sound, and both are easy to drive. 

My trusty Aune T1 will be my driving source and has seen more use in the past month than it has ever seen in the year or two I've owned it...but that's par for my audio gear. I buy, use, store, bring back out, use, store, sell. Lol.

Anyone own either the MM400's or PM-3's? I still consider myself a bass head to a point, so I appreciate the ability but I also really enjoy the planar sound too...something about that fast response and separation that nothing else can quite seem to match keeps me coming back to my HE-400's no matter what else I listen to, including my old Denon D2000's (which might get sold too...).

I primarily game and listen to all sorts of music of varying quality but usually 320k MP3's and some FLAC, using Foobar and my Aune T1 to get the signal to my headphones of choice.

I want something in that price range (READ: if I can even afford that!!!  ) that sounds great, is durable, comfortable, blocks audio and is solid for home-use. I don't plan on using them as portables, ever, I have my ear buds for that stuff in all honesty. But it appears the bestish closed headphones in this range are portable. Barring the HP50's and MP41's (I forget the correct model).

Thanks in advance!


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## OneMoar (Jun 10, 2015)

http://www.head-fi.org/t/761386/oppo-pm-3-vs-denon-mm400-and-oppo-pm-2-vs-hifiman-he-560


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## Kursah (Jun 10, 2015)

Yep that thread kicked off my interest in the MM400's in the first place, which launched research and ultimately this thread.


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## BumbleBee (Jun 10, 2015)

no one replied in that thread? the guy didn't give any analysis... if anything he talks more about the PM-2.

it worries me Tyll hasn't reviewed the Denon MM400.

I don't like the ear pads on the Denon and I don't think it's going to measure better than the Oppo PM-3.







the Oppo looks like it has more space and depth inside the cup. the ear pads on the Denon look like cheap pleather you find on $150 headphones. the padding on the Oppo headband looks thicker too.


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## Kursah (Jun 10, 2015)

Agreed, what I've seen when they're in photos together, the Oppo's have better looking pads for sure. But can't say I've read many complaints about comfort from either too. 

I am open to other closed back suggestions in that price range too!


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## BumbleBee (Jun 10, 2015)

it's too bad the Shure SRH1540 are never on sale lol

I think you found your headphone. I don't think there is anything better than the Oppo PM-3 in this price range. I read somewhere the bass is nicer on the Oppo than the 400i


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## AhokZYashA (Jun 10, 2015)

the PM3 is a very good set of headphones,
I think you cant go wrong,
or if you are willing to spend a bit more, you can get the MDR-Z7 from Sony.


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## Kursah (Jun 10, 2015)

Well I'm questioning the PM3 only because of the lighter bass in comparison to the HE-400, which is lighter than my D2000 but still excellent. http://www.head-fi.org/t/756828/oppo-pm-3-the-portable-planar-impressions/750

Though maybe it won't be so bad with some EQ-ing and amping from my T1....


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## Zakin (Jun 10, 2015)

Just saying the classic Denon line, (D2000/5000/7000) and HE400 have some of the most notorious bass of any headphone, almost any are a downgrade to them. Most audiophile headphones except Fostex TH600/900 aim for a more neutral response than visceral bass impact.

EDIT: On that note I'd definitely go with the PM3, some very notable people in the scene say they are killer and even prefer them to the PM1/2 saying they have a better response while costing less. Bit of a confusing one, but it is Oppo's first go into the headphone world. Denon's new line is most lackluster, and disappointing since they're no longer outsourcing Fostex drivers.


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## Kursah (Jun 10, 2015)

Ya I still have a pull towards the PM-3, I will not lie the MM400 looks good and seems to review really well too. But the thinner padding has me concerned. I have read a couple times the MM400 is the "spiritual" successor to the D2000's. Not convinced yet.

I'm seeing if anyone locally wants to buy my HE-400's, but plan on putting them up here on TPU for sale with all the spare pads I've ordered that are still brand new here soon. I'm really gonna miss them phones, but no sense in keeping them if I cannot use them and enjoy them. I just wanna make sure they go to a good home!


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## BumbleBee (Jun 11, 2015)

the colour choices and concept headband look interesting.


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## Kursah (Jun 12, 2015)

I've spent more time researching, and I cannot whole-heartedly justify spending $400 on the MM400's. They look great, and most say sound great, some say they're the successor to the famed D2000's...which I'm speaking with Denon to order replacement hinge parts for.

But at this point if I get my HE-400's sold, and maaaaaybe my D2000's (trying to keep em) then I'm definitely going with the PM-3's! Get my planar sound, still what many report is decent bass, and a headphone that can play well with MP3 players and smartphones yet scales well with amplificaiton which means it should make good use of my Aune T1 to 0db (which I went to with now listening to my D2000's). 

I'm actually tempted to just order the PM-3's now...


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## Zakin (Jun 12, 2015)

Just saying if you sell your D2000s, repaired and all, you could likely in the right market (Head-fi) sell them for the retail price just because they're getting rarer. It's extremely common practice for the D5000/7000 to be sold a lot higher than brand new now. Those are higher models but still. Just something to keep in mind. I wouldn't blame you for keeping them, I've contemplated getting some D7000s, but at the same time it just seemed simpler to buy a TH600/900 instead as a lot of people call them the evolution.


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## Kursah (Jun 12, 2015)

Ya I've seen D2000's even going for quite a bit more than I paid...which was a lot less than new.

The pair I got wasn't the best cared for from the kid I bought them from so it's been about 5-6 years worth of taking good care of them and fixing them where I can, but they sound great and are comfy. They are in great shape considering, and better shape than when I got em. 

I just don't know if I want to sell them, at the same time, once I fix the hinges I don't know if I want to keep them either. So it's up in the air, if someone made me an offer I would likely seriously consider it. But there is one part no longer available from Denon, and I'm working with them to figure out which part that is.

Beyond that, I keep reading reviews and watching youtube vid reviews for the PM-3....damn tempting! Gonna go clean up my HE-400's after another good listening session...I will miss the soundstage, especially in Elite Dangerous. But it'll be nice to have closed back and still have planar drivers!

Edit: Order placed.    Went with standard shipping since that pushed the price just past $400 and beyond my budget.... 3-day shipping from northern California at standard shipping prices is sweet! I went with the black ones, matches the rest of my gear.


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## BumbleBee (Jun 13, 2015)

did one of the screws fall out? Mark Lawton can fix that but it probably won't be cheap.


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## Kursah (Jun 14, 2015)

One of the screws is stretched out as-far-as I can tell...I've tried fixing it, and had luck previously...but it never seems to hold. The parts are pretty cheap, should be under $30 for two sets of parts. I'm pretty handy so I'm not gonna pay Mark $150+ to repair mine.... yet.


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## Harbear (Jun 16, 2015)

I am literally sitting at the school library right now with both of these and auditing. XD


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## xvi (Jun 16, 2015)

*looks at his Sennheiser HD 280 Pro*
*cries*

I only wish I had experience in the areas you're looking for. Sub'd though.


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## Kursah (Jun 16, 2015)

Harbear said:


> I am literally sitting at the school library right now with both of these and auditing. XD



And what's your thoughts? 

I have a 30-day return on the Oppo's and I'm debating it because of some bills that came up. I might just have to repair my D2000's and call it good there.    Don't get me wrong, I love my D2000's but they're BORING compared to my HE-400's which don't wanna get sold! 

Either rate, my Oppo's should arrive Thursday afternoon!


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## Harbear (Jun 16, 2015)

I am using a JDS C5D streaming Spotify Premium, which is what these headphones are intended for anyway. I do not have time to pull out my desktop set up but I think it's not really all that necessary.

Note, this is only based on 2 hours of listening.

Bass:
- Denon has a stronger bass presence, no doubt. It offers more of a rumble in the sub-bass section. BUT, I find both Oppo and Denon offers similar amount of mid-bass. I cannot definitively say which one has the better bass. I think I am leaning towards Denon on the bass section, just because it has more presence. The problem is, with Denon's stronger bass and tighter soundstage, I find the mids being just slightly colored in some songs. 

Mids:
- MM400 is slightly forward since the speakers are physically closer to your ears. The characteristics between the two are surprisingly similar though. If I have to be critical, I would say Oppo is a little bit more "easy going" and relaxed and MM400 is little more "in your face". Quality wise, they are both great, no real winner here. 

Highs:
- Similar to what I said about the mids, they are both fairly similar and I am very happy with both. MM400 is slightly more extended, which can be good or bad depending on the listener. I had a hard time getting used to MM400's high in the beginning. 

I think Oppo has better(not necessarily wider) sound stage and better separation. Because the speakers are so close to your ears, Denon makes it a little too intimate sometimes, especially with classical when I want to hear each sections of the orchestra.

Overall, I would say the sound quality between the two are very similar. Oppo is definitely more linear and "neater" and a bit more "cleaned-up". Denon offers a warmer sound with slightly extended highs and greater bass presence.


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## Harbear (Jun 16, 2015)

Kursah said:


> And what's your thoughts?
> 
> I have a 30-day return on the Oppo's and I'm debating it because of some bills that came up. I might just have to repair my D2000's and call it good there.    Don't get me wrong, I love my D2000's but they're BORING compared to my HE-400's which don't wanna get sold!
> 
> Either rate, my Oppo's should arrive Thursday afternoon!



Let me know if there is anything you want me to answer


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## Kursah (Jun 16, 2015)

Do you EQ your headphones at all? 

How about comfort? That's the one thing the HE-400 really lacked. My D2000 are comfy for about 2 hours or so before my ears get sweaty...and I don't like the loose clamp feeling... I'd rather deal with the tighter clamp and lowered comfort of the HE-400's...and honestly I can stand the 400's for a longer session that the D2000's if that's not odd!

Thank you sooooo much for your feedback!


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## Harbear (Jun 17, 2015)

Kursah said:


> Do you EQ your headphones at all?
> 
> How about comfort? That's the one thing the HE-400 really lacked. My D2000 are comfy for about 2 hours or so before my ears get sweaty...and I don't like the loose clamp feeling... I'd rather deal with the tighter clamp and lowered comfort of the HE-400's...and honestly I can stand the 400's for a longer session that the D2000's if that's not odd!
> 
> Thank you sooooo much for your feedback!



Nope, not EQed at all.

Mhm.. if you have big ears then MM400 might not be the best for you. I would definitely prefer the PM3 for comfort. But I do not find MM400 uncomfortable. I have regular sized ears I would say...


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## Kursah (Jun 17, 2015)

I have always had large ears, they don't stick out very far though. I'm kind of hoping for something similar to my old Sony XB500's in terms of comfort (except with more clamping pressure due to weight and design).

I am an EQer kinda guy, so if I gotta EQ some more bass into the PM-3's I will and I have been reading the head-fi thread and it seems they respond well to a little EQ-ing. We shall see!

Thanks again for the input!


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## Harbear (Jun 17, 2015)

Kursah said:


> I have always had large ears, they don't stick out very far though. I'm kind of hoping for something similar to my old Sony XB500's in terms of comfort (except with more clamping pressure due to weight and design).
> 
> I am an EQer kinda guy, so if I gotta EQ some more bass into the PM-3's I will and I have been reading the head-fi thread and it seems they respond well to a little EQ-ing. We shall see!
> 
> Thanks again for the input!



Yep. And honestly, both headphones offer a great experience, and I would say you can get very similar sound with EQ tweaking. The big thing you need to consider is how the distance of the speakers affect the sound. Some prefer a more forward and upfront sound, which would want the MM400, and others will go for Oppo. 

Enjoy listening!


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## Kursah (Jun 19, 2015)

So the Oppo's showed up today. The wife and kids already opened the box and tried em on. I tried them straight away on my phone, to some old Metallica and Godsmack...because I read in the Head-Fi forums that rock and metal fans need not apply to these headphones and that had me concerned.

So far I can't say I'm dissapointed at all. Hooked em up to my Aune T1, turned the signal boost down to 0db from +10db (for the HE-400's). Though 0db is almost not enough...I find myself between 2/3 and 3/4 volume and I don't much like that. But that's more of a personal preference.

The HE-400's do have superior bass and treble no doubt, but the volume I need to crank to achieve the same level as the PM-3's is so much louder. I'm using the same output and EQ, and I gotta say I'm impressed. The HE-400's also hit much harder, as is expected with higher output and larger drivers.

I've given the PM-3's all of 20 minutes worth of listening though, and I'm super impressed. They're VERY comfortable thus far. I can't even feel the headband, and the ear cushions are just a touch small and my ears do touch but it's not painful (yet).

I'm pretty hopeful, doing some after-hours work and going to give them a good listen since I have the 30-day return policy on my side. The quality and feel of these phones is amazingly impressive. The bass does seem to go deeper than the HE-400's, but that's likely because I can actually hear it better being a closed-back phone...as I know the HE-400 can reach deep, but in semi-noisy to noisy environments like I live in now with family, animals, city streets, etc...I miss a lot. I'm getting that feeling of new songs sounding new again like I originally had with my HE-400's. That's a great feeling.

I had a lotta hype and concern going into these phones, but also I knew I was just gonna give them a fair shake and see what happens. I primarily listen to rock and metal from all reaches of mainstream and indie. So far they are laid back, and the treble isn't quite as defined as I am used to, where the D2000 has a sparkle to it and the HE-400 has the spike. But I'm finding that I really like it because I can still pick every part of the instruments apart. Awesome!

So far I would say I'm pretty damn happy, but am going to stay reserved until further notice. More to come, there's a lotta music and some gaming to be done yet....


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## Zakin (Jun 19, 2015)

I'll be surprised if the HE400s have superior treble, possibly a little smoother but otherwise it's crazy uneven. But keep in mind I've started to become used to something a bit more even response wise. Though to be fair, your setup is a bit more modest.


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## Kursah (Jun 19, 2015)

Ya, well I suppose it's just more forward and aggressive than the PM-3's which to me seemed a little better initially...the last hour I've really grown to like the PM-3's more laid back treble. Overall it's got a pretty good presentation.


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## Zakin (Jun 19, 2015)

Yeah the one thing that sort of makes me want to throw my HE-400s into the wall sometimes, especially on poorly recorded music is the treble is super crazy spiked in a sibilance range. Nails on the chalkboard to me. Otherwise I liked them a lot. Pretty sure you'll agree over the course of a few weeks that the Oppo's are the more even treble, possibly slightly laid back but I wouldn't say too far off of neutral from what I have read around.


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## BumbleBee (Jun 19, 2015)

all my headphones have rolled off highs


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## Kursah (Jun 21, 2015)

I've been enjoying them a lot, though after a couple hours the clamping pressure starts to bother me. Also had some unexpected bills come up that might force my hand on a refund... on top of selling my HE-400's... 

But I'm gonna enjoy them until I know for sure!


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 23, 2015)

Maybe just stick to your Denons. Seems you really can't afford to be spending money on toys just now. 

Don't mind me...I'm in Husband/father mode.


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## Kursah (Jun 24, 2015)

I hear ya there...well I gotta order parts for the D2000's to get them to where I'd be more comfortable wearing them w/o breaking the hinges. 

I have a possible trade on Head-Fi happening. PM-3's are going back...the clamping pressure gives me a killer headache after about 2 hours or so...which makes them worse than the HE-400's though they're way comfier initially. For small heapdhones, or smaller full-size headphones, they sound amazing. Anyone that can afford them will likely enjoy their sound.


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 24, 2015)

I've demoed the HE-400's at a local head-fi meet last year. I got a decent amount of time with them due to the my demo table being next to them. I enjoyed them.


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## Kursah (Jun 24, 2015)

They're great imho, and that bass for open cans!!!! You just gotta be able to have the right environment for them..wish I still did. Can't justify keeping a spendy (to me) pair of headphone I can't listen to with nothing wrong with them...

Oh well, as I said, trade pending on Head-Fi, going for something more budget-oriented. For now I'm pretty damn well adjusted to my HARX700's with HM5 pleather pads on them...pretty damn good overall! I'm impressed at these old 'phones! 

If my deal doesn't go through for the trade, I'll be placing my HE-400's for sale here on TPU first to give ya'all dibs on a pair of ear badassery!


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 24, 2015)

The only headphone I could see myself purchasing in the future would be the Grado GS1000e. I currently own the Grado 325 which I love the sound of but hate the on ear design. The Grado GS1000 is over ear and the one time I tried them at a meet I was blown away. I recently sent mine back to Grado to be serviced. I hope to get them back by next month.

I also own the Audeze LCD-2 R2F and they are by far the best headphones I have owned and heard. These will be with me till I'm dead I believe.


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## Kursah (Jun 24, 2015)

Do you have any closed headphones that you enjoy as well?


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 24, 2015)

I do own a pair of Sony XB700 cans. They are closed back and when I want to really get into some bass heavy music I pop those on. I owned a pair of Sony V6 cans for over 15 years that I loved. I sold those last year. One of the best headphones for the money. A little light in the bass department but great critical listening cans IMO.

Honestly I don't see myself ever buying closed headphones again. Open headphones just sound better to me. And if I wake up my wife in the middle of the night...oh well.

Also I forgot to mention that I would really like to own Mr. Speakers Ether. I see myself buying those before the Grado cans if money permits.

This is a pretty complete list of my current headphones including IEM's and ones I have sold in the past year.


Audeze LCD2 Rev. 2
Grado SR325i
Sony MDR-V6 SOLD
Sony MDR-XB700
Sony MDR-EX85LP
Sony MDR-XB60EX
Klipsch Image S4i
Sennheiser HD595 SOLD
Sennheiser RS-120
Sennheiser CX-200 SOLD
Harman Kardon Hakar CL SOLD


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## Kursah (Jun 24, 2015)

I have a couple pair of XB500's, the kids commandeared one pair and the other is collecting dust. When I fell the true need for some bass they usually fit the bill.

Wish I could enjoy a pair of LCD2's, man-o-man I wouldn't care if i woke up the wife either!


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 24, 2015)

Kursah said:


> I have a couple pair of XB500's, the kids commandeared one pair and the other is collecting dust. When I fell the true need for some bass they usually fit the bill.
> 
> Wish I could enjoy a pair of LCD2's, man-o-man I wouldn't care if i woke up the wife either!


 
I have to admit my XB700's mainly collect dust as well. I haven't had it on my head since maybe 1st quarter last year. But when it comes to pounding bass the XB700 does hammer it into my skull.  My main issue with those headphones is to really sound good through the entire FR I have to EQ them and I hate EQing anything. Any stereo I own or other audio equipment has the FR set to 0db. The XB700 though require a boost in the mids and highs to really sound good, otherwise the bass is just too over powering and even pushes into the mids a bit.

Of course anyone that doesn't have experience listening to quality headphones won't know the difference and think the XB line is amazing...It is not until you venture into the more expensive, higher quality cans that one realizes what they have been missing.

In my experience more money usually does buy SQ in many cases. There are exceptions of course.


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## BumbleBee (Jun 24, 2015)

Kursah said:


> Do you have any closed headphones that you enjoy as well?



Audio Technica ATH-W5000, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80

I would probably like the Shure SRH1540 too if they didn't cost $500


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## Zakin (Jun 24, 2015)

Kursah said:


> I have a couple pair of XB500's, the kids commandeared one pair and the other is collecting dust. When I fell the true need for some bass they usually fit the bill.
> 
> Wish I could enjoy a pair of LCD2's, man-o-man I wouldn't care if i woke up the wife either!


I once owned some LCD-2's, for about three months, they gave me insane crazy headaches from how miserable the headband design is though. People complain about Hifiman but Audeze took the cake on that one. Otherwise they sounded pretty good, they sort of sounded like a suped up HD650 to me, I know it's not quite that but it's similar to an extent for Planar vs Driver. My next purchase will likely just be end game so I can not worry about it for some time, just like people running Stax since the 80s and still being happy. Likely will be HE-1000 with Schiit Ragg/Ygg, or possibly a high end tube amp.


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## BumbleBee (Jun 24, 2015)

Kursah said:


> I have a couple pair of XB500's, the kids commandeared one pair and the other is collecting dust. When I fell the true need for some bass they usually fit the bill.
> 
> Wish I could enjoy a pair of LCD2's, man-o-man I wouldn't care if i woke up the wife either!



Audeze EL8 is a lot cheaper but not very comfortable.


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## Zakin (Jun 24, 2015)

BumbleBee said:


> Audeze EL8 is a lot cheaper but not very comfortable.


I haven't heard them myself yet, but I've also heard they're really not that wonderful at all sound wise. Lots of people seem to be enjoying both the HE-400i and HE-560 more, and they cost the same or less. Otherwise people are saying you might just be better off buying LCD-2 for a marginal amount more and get the actual Audeze sound. (Keep in mind, this is just from some of the trusted Changstar/HF sources that have in the past always matched up with me.)

Also I've heard the Shure 1540 is a really fun headphone, if I could get one of those second hand for like 300, I probably would just for the hell of it. I've always wanted to try a Shure, but I've heard negative things on treble response and distortion on most of their previous flagships.


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 24, 2015)

Funny, I find the LCD-2 to be one of the most comfortable headphones I've ever owned. I can wear these for hours on end.

Now my Grado 325 starts hurting my ears after about 1.5-2 hours. I would love to find a cushion for those that would be larger and go over ear....hmmm I think that will be my next google search.

The HE-400's sound pretty nice. The HE-560's sound waay better. Like a big improvement which is to be expected when looking at the price difference.

I really enjoy the HD600 too and feel that they work really well with tube amps. I spent some time with the HD600 and a Crack OTL tube amp. Those two together were wonderful. I actually preferred them to the HE-400 that I listened to that very same day.


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## BumbleBee (Jun 25, 2015)

I can only wear my LCD-3 for a couple hours then my neck starts feeling it. I love my HD600 it's a daily driver and really affordable at $350 (currently $310 on Amazon).


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 25, 2015)

Well you are a girl. I've been wearing motorcycle helmets since I was 7 years old, nearly every day since then actually. I guess that gave me one awesome neck.


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## Zakin (Jun 25, 2015)

I wouldn't say I'm weak, lot of people say it's been mostly based on head shape then actual muscle capacity. I know some pretty small guys that have no issue with the LCD line, but they have odd comfort issues with Sennheiser stuff which I feel is pretty close to pillowy on my head.


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 25, 2015)

You have a girly neck and odd shaped head. Just admit it!


/jk


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