# [SOLVED] Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut PSA (nasty scratching)



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

EDIT: *matter is fully settled amicably, with the help of the very good @Thermal-Grizzly support.*

What can I say. Pay premium price, get premium scratching on both IHS and coldplate. Delidded my 8700K, only to find out what just 3 days of Kryonaut did to my D15S and the top of the IHS. Good thing I didn't put it on the die itself. The IHS was in pristine condition for almost 2 years of heavy use, mostly with Arctic MX3 and later Noctua NTH1. Kryonaut fixed the good looks.

You can see the clean IHS before the Kryonaut. I wish people would stop advertising this so hard. replaced it with NTH1 and temps are same, and it's far cheaper and not scratching anything. Quite sad.


----------



## Solaris17 (Dec 10, 2019)

Odd, iv never had that.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

Solaris17 said:


> Odd, iv never had that.


Seems common. I wish I found that before buying it.

google for kryonaut scratching


----------



## eidairaman1 (Dec 10, 2019)

toyo said:


> Seems common. I wish I found that before buying it.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=kryonaut scratching



Atleast its not conductonaut which corrodes


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Atleast its not conductonaut which corrodes


I used that on the die itself. It already started to interact with the back of the IHS, but that was expected. It's one thing to know that what you will do has specific adverse reactions, and another to expect a normal TIM application and to get scratching.
Oh and neither acetone or isopropylic alcohol can clean that. Luckily, temps seem fully normal, but I have to say, it looks like crap, both the IHS and the coldplate.


----------



## silkstone (Dec 10, 2019)

Urgh . . . I have some on my 1080Ti, but I've been meaning to replace it with MX-4 anyway.

It is by far the worst thermal compound I've ever worked with. Out of a 1g tube, I got 1 GPU application, with enough left over for another 1/2 an application. Most of what you put on top a surface gets wasted by it being impossible to spread evenly and thinly. 

I really hope my GPU die is not scratched up.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

silkstone said:


> Urgh . . . I have some on my 1080Ti, but I've been meaning to replace it with MX-4 anyway.
> 
> It is by far the worst thermal compound I've ever worked with. Out of a 1g tube, I got 1 GPU application, with enough left over for another 1/2 an application. Most of what you put on top a surface gets wasted by it being impossible to spread evenly and thinly.
> 
> I really hope my GPU die is not scratched up.


Only one way to find out. Tear it down and post some pics maybe?
In my case, noctua nth1 seems to both spread better and give a bit better temps.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 10, 2019)

Solaris17 said:


> Odd, iv never had that.



Me neither, and I've put that stuff nearly literally everywhere.

Still I'm using MX-4 as of late for paste applications.  Cost reasons.


----------



## Mussels (Dec 10, 2019)

Oof, hadn't heard of this happening with kryonaut either

I use conductonaut for the high heat stuff and MX4 for everything else


----------



## Calmmo (Dec 10, 2019)

I ended up applying kryonaut 5-6 times on a 3900x (motherboard issues, trying to figure things out before RMAing the board) and not a single scratch. Could be some defective batch(es) out there.


----------



## racer243l (Dec 10, 2019)

Never seen anything like that on my 6700k that had it´s coolers swapped three times, each time with Kryonaut. Neither on the coolers base plates.
Same goes for my current 9900k and 3900x and both of their Corsair AiO´s. 

Spreading it though is a pain


----------



## MakeDeluxe (Dec 10, 2019)

Repasted my RX 480 2 times and my 1700x 3 times with some Kryonaut. Haven't gotten any scratching either.


----------



## P4-630 (Dec 10, 2019)

I also use Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, never seen this before.


----------



## PerfectWave (Dec 10, 2019)

i dont think a thermalpast can do that kind of damage


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

PerfectWave said:


> i dont think a thermalpast can do that kind of damage


It can.. but typically it is the the ones with diamond in them where this happens

I've used this for years including multiple mounts on the same CPU and didn't have this issue.



toyo said:


> Seems common. I wish I found that before buying it.
> 
> google for kryonaut scratching


You can google just about anything...

That said, how are there large (long) scratches when the thing stays in the same place the whole time? I'm wondering how you managed to get such large and LINEAR scratches across the IHS by simply mounting the thing. It doesn't really look like a paste and mounting thing to me...........typically that is pitting or much smaller length scratches. How you managed to make large scratches on the entire IHS/cold plate I have no idea. (looks like a cleaning thing to me).


EDIT: Worth reading - http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...-properties-and-high-temp-degradation.829823/

Shows that they admitted to one bad batch back in the day... but this clearly isn't something that needs a PSA/sounding the alarm it seems.

EDIT2: support@thermal-grizzly.com

Email them.


----------



## basco (Dec 10, 2019)

with what stuff do ya clean it?


----------



## freeagent (Dec 10, 2019)

I agree with ED, those scratches are pretty long. For cleaning I use 99% isopropyl alcohol and a cloth. Everything comes off in a swipe. That's brutal.


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 10, 2019)

Have you tried to contact them about it?


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Dec 10, 2019)

PerfectWave said:


> i dont think a thermalpast can do that kind of damage



You obviously werent around during the IC Diamond fiasco on TPU so i'll leave these here for you









						IC Diamond going crazy rather than solving the issue - Hardware BBQ
					

Its always good to see companies taking end user’s complaints very seriously and working on it, but its bad when some people try their best to bash a brand. We all can agree to this, no matter where we’re from. When its your fault, its your fault. True, its important that people working for...




					www.hardwarebbq.com
				












						Avoid IC DIAMOND thermal paste!
					

Original thread intro: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170121  The crap hits the fan on this page: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170121&page=23  One member's pics: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2944231&postcount=785




					www.overclock.net
				




We even had the company CEO trying to bury the evidence. He had peoples damaged coolers sent to them for analysis then claimed they got lost in the mail or they never received them when their deliveries had been signed for by members of staff as proof of delivery.


----------



## Bones (Dec 10, 2019)

I can believe it, all that went down just before my time here.

The abrasive quality of diamond dust vs whatever is obvious, diamond is about the hardest substance on earth and even in dust form will scratch things up like a pasty form of sandpaper. 
That's why I don't, won't or ever will use it in any form for anything.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

Bones said:


> I can believe it, all that went down just before my time here.
> 
> The abrasive quality of diamond dust vs whatever is obvious, diamond is about the hardest substance on earth and even in dust form will scratch things up like a pasty form of sandpaper.
> That's why I don't, won't or ever will use it in any form for anything.


Right...buuuut... this isn't a diamond based product AFAIK...


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

Chomiq said:


> Have you tried to contact them about it?


Sent them an email yesterday. Luckily I kept the bag in which the tube came, which has a serial number, so maybe they can take out of circulation further defective batches.



EarthDog said:


> That said, how are there large (long) scratches when the thing stays in the same place the whole time? I'm wondering how you managed to get such large and LINEAR scratches across the IHS by simply mounting the thing. It doesn't really look like a paste and mounting thing to me...........typically that is pitting or much smaller length scratches. How you managed to make large scratches on the entire IHS/cold plate I have no idea. (looks like a cleaning thing to me).


They include a plastic "spreader" with the tube, so I spread it with that. I assume that contributed. The spreader is really soft though, you can't scratch metal with it if you try as hard as possible, even with the edge (tried it now). So when the messed up paste is spread, I think it creates those traces, and because they're covered in paste, you don't see it until you clean it.

As for the cleaning, about which somebody asked for, I don't think it's possible without lapping. I tried 99% isopropylic alcohol and acetone solutions, and neither worked.

The PSA is necessary, as it's clear that TG still has bad batches in circulation. Mine is bought in Nov 2019. If you buy Kryonaut you gamble with the IHS and coldplate.


----------



## sutyi (Dec 10, 2019)

...one thing has not been mentioned yet. [putsontinfoilhat] Counterfeit product.

Couple of years back we had fake Arctic MX-4 circulating the dealers, it even penetrated some brick and mortar stores...


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

sutyi said:


> ...one thing has not been mentioned yet. [putsontinfoilhat] Counterfeit product.
> 
> Couple of years back we had fake Arctic MX-4 circulating the dealers, it even penetrated some brick and mortar stores...


I have some doubts this was counterfeited, doesn't seem to be worth the effort to create this sort of packaging, with spreader and I think even a small leaflet guide inside. My purchase was from Aqua Computer, Germany, together with Conductonaut and a delid tool. The Conductonaut also came in properly packaged and sealed. All products have an invoice too.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

toyo said:


> Sent them an email yesterday. Luckily I kept the bag in which the tube came, which has a serial number, so maybe they can take out of circulation further defective batches.
> 
> 
> They include a plastic "spreader" with the tube, so I spread it with that. I assume that contributed. The spreader is really soft though, you can't scratch metal with it if you try as hard as possible, even with the edge (tried it now). So when the messed up paste is spread, I think it creates those traces, and because they're covered in paste, you don't see it until you clean it.
> ...


How does spreading it (with presumably such little pressure) scratch a metal IHS? It takes some significant pressure to scuff an IHS up like that. Also, similar patterns on are on the IHS, did you (for some reason) apply the product to the base of the heatsink too???? Things aren't adding up.  I believe you may have a bad sample, but typically you see pitting or much smaller length scuffing. On the HIS we see long arse scratches going in opposite directions even...

If this is gambling, I will take those odds any day...................thanks for the heads up and all, but I'll continue to take my chances (and win) . Sorry this happened though. Keep us posted on how they respond.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> How does spreading it (with presumably such little pressure) scratch an metal IHS?
> 
> If this is gambling, I will take those odds any day...................thanks for the heads up and all, but I'll continue to take my chances (and win).


Paste materials might be improperly ground? How should I know, TG doesn't disclose composition. 

The facts for my particular tube, which is the only one I can speak of, yet still carries the TG branding and was hermetically sealed (both tube, and bag).

- it performs worse than NTH1 (around +2C, 1hour of prime95 smallFFTs, same BIOS settings).
- it scratched my IHS and the cooler coldplate. The IHS looked pristine after 1.5 years of Arctic MX3 and half a year of Noctua NTH1. Which I have also spread on it.
- the marks cannot be removed with cotton swabs/coffee filter and isopropanol or acetone 99%.

There are similar cases on the web, for the same product. So it's hardly an isolated case. 

If knowing all this you still want to risk scratching your IHS and coldplates, nobody can stop you. But if you get one of these bad batches, not only you'll cosmetically destroy your components, but you will also not gain anything on the thermal side. 

It's just weird to me that people are so dedicated to amoral corporations that exist only to create profit. When we fail, we get punished, but when a corporations fails, it's expected to suddenly overlook this?


----------



## Thermal-Grizzly (Dec 10, 2019)

Hello everyone.
@toyo we have not received an e-mail from you, i checked all e-mails we have received since friday ( since you said you sent it yesterday it should have been in this timeframe). Can you check if the e-mail was sent correctly, and if not sent it again? We will check what has happenend here and will try to help you as good as we can. support@thermal-grizzly.com


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

toyo said:


> Paste materials might be improperly ground? How should I know, TG doesn't disclose composition.


What I was saying is that scratches in metal happen with a lot of pressure. Simply applying the product should not do that. This begs the question of how the hell you have such long and oppositely running scratches on the IHS.



toyo said:


> It's just weird to me that people are so dedicated to amoral corporations that exist only to create profit. When we fail, we get punished, but when a corporations fails, it's expected to suddenly overlook this?


It's odd to me you call this corporation "amoral". Nobody is saying to overlook it. I suggested you contact them... which you saod you did (but they said they don't have...). What else can we do... jump on the slander bandwagon when it hasn't happened to us? 


toyo said:


> - it performs worse than NTH1 (around +2C, 1hour of prime95 smallFFTs, same BIOS settings).


Respectfully, I don't buy your (anyone's) anecdote(s) and blaming the paste. If you look up reputable reviews on this product, you will see that it is generally better, not 2C worse. Typically the NHT1 is worse by that amount, give or take. So it was the application, or, you may have a bad batch. But let's not slander the company calling them "amoral". Shit happens man.. surely they are not doing this to rip people off...and they will take care of you once the email is sent/received as we see above.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

Thermal-Grizzly said:


> Hello everyone.
> @toyo we have not received an e-mail from you, i checked all e-mails we have received since friday ( since you said you sent it yesterday it should have been in this timeframe). Can you check if the e-mail was sent correctly, and if not sent it again? We will check what has happenend here and will try to help you as good as we can. support@thermal-grizzly.com


It says that it's sent in both Gmail in the browser, and the Mail app in Windows 10. I will send a PM here with the email contents and my email address. 

Thanks for the reply!


----------



## The Egg (Dec 10, 2019)

I always felt the Kryonaut was more for use on bare CPU/GPU dies when de-lidding and such, and not really for IHS-to-heatsink use.  That's not an excuse for the damage you have, though.


----------



## Thermal-Grizzly (Dec 10, 2019)

@toyo You can sent it here via PM or e-mail j.froehlich@thermal-grizzly.com directly. I have just checked the Inbox again but the e-mail did not show up, i will try to check what has happened there.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

Thermal-Grizzly said:


> @toyo You can sent it here via PM or e-mail j.froehlich@thermal-grizzly.com directly. I have just checked the Inbox again but the e-mail did not show up, i will try to check what has happened there.


Thanks, I'll send you an email now.


----------



## robot zombie (Dec 10, 2019)

I have a CPU and heatsink with those little scratches. Never thought much of it tbh. Temps were still great. Like really ideal. Almost never breaking 55C on air. Some of them are pretty rough-looking too.

Only two pastes were ever used. Kryonaut and MX-4. Not really sure if either caused it. My assumption was that dust/dirt got clamped under there and scratched everything when I removed it. Between the pressure and the still wet paste acting as a lubricant I could see it happening.

I dunno... could be something in the paste too. Not like thats never happened before.


----------



## Final_Fighter (Dec 10, 2019)

its possible that the paste reacted with some of the old paste that may not have come off (stuck in microscopic pores in the metal). would be interesting to test this.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

I'd like to thank @Thermal-Grizzly for the very good, and very fast support. 

I consider this matter fully settled. Maybe TG support can explain how the new batches contain a validity code. Could be useful in verifying which batch your Kryonaut is from.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

toyo said:


> I'd like to thank @Thermal-Grizzly for the very good, and very fast support.
> 
> I consider this matter fully settled. Maybe TG support can explain how the new batches contain a validity code. Could be useful in verifying which batch your Kryonaut is from.


Good to hear. How was it fully settled?

Also, do you want to renege on your "amoral" take on the company now???


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Good to hear. How was it fully settled?
> 
> Also, do you want to renege on your "amoral" take on the company now???


No way I will ever go back on this. Corporations are at best amoral, often immoral (this is NOT about TG, it's about corporations in general, the bigger the more problematic). The people that work for them however, can be very competent and 110% worth praising. Corporations are not people, regardless of what some weird legal fictions say. But let's not digress. What matters is that all is settled, TG support was amazing and very helpful, and TG should offer a raise to J. Froehlich for their professionalism.


----------



## P4-630 (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> How was it fully settled?


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

toyo said:


> No way I will ever go back on this. Corporations are at best amoral, often immoral (this is NOT about TG, it's about corporations in general, the bigger the more problematic). The people that work for them however, can be very competent and 110% worth praising. Corporations are not people, regardless of what some weird legal fictions say. But let's not digress. What matters is that all is settled, TG support was amazing and very helpful, and TG should offer a raise to J. Froehlich for their professionalism.


LOLOLOL. Wow.

So, for the third time now... how exactly was it resolved??????


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> LOLOLOL. Wow.



Here is your typical _"The cup is half empty"_ kinda guy


----------



## xkm1948 (Dec 10, 2019)

Never had any problem. Performs a tiny bit better than NT-H1. I like it so much that I bought a 11g of it. Having this on my CPU, my wife's laptop and desktop. Planning to eventually repaste the 2080Ti with this too.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

@toyo - Are you going to answer how exactly this was resolved or just thank people and ignore those asking?


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> @toyo - Are you going to answer how exactly this was resolved or just thank people and ignore those asking?


Can't, without breaking the trust of TG support, which I have no reasons to. Obviously I saw the requests, if I was quiet about it, it simply means there's not much to say other than TG support was great.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

toyo said:


> Can't, without breaking the trust of TG support, which I have no reasons to. Obviously I saw the requests, if I was quiet about it, it simply means there's not much to say other than TG support was great.


What does this even mean? lol wat?

Did they ask you not to say anything about the resolution? Did they send you a turkey baster's worth of paste and tell you to stop calling them 'amoral' and making a big deal out of things???? Did they confirm another bad batch (hence your mention of asking the guy to come in and explain?

Why the hell is this so secretive? You scream from the hills they are an 'amoral' company before, but once they give you reparations you suddenly clam up about things???!!!???


----------



## freeagent (Dec 10, 2019)

Did they give you an NDA to sign?

maybe should have talked to them first before making this thread. I’m sure there are a few curious minds out there.


----------



## robot zombie (Dec 10, 2019)

I mean... generally when customer service helps you they want you to tell other people about it. Isn't that half of the reason for customer service in the first place? Sometimes screw ups happen. I'm more inclined to buy from the folks who make good openly than those who appear to never make mistakes.

Same with AIOs. I don't look for the one that never leaks. I look for the one where people were paid hassle free for damage due to leaks.

What might they not want to have known?


----------



## Thermal-Grizzly (Dec 10, 2019)

Hey again @all 
No, we had no bad Batch again. We offered him a compensation, i just asked him to not tell the exact sum. After we admitted of having a bad batch, we received several "fake problems and requests" to get a compensation from us. But before speculation arises ; We offered him 150€ as compensation and questioned about some details of the product ( Verification Code e.g.) to take further actions.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

Thermal-Grizzly said:


> Hey again @all
> No, we had no bad Batch again. We offered him a compensation, i just asked him to not tell the exact sum. After we admitted of having a bad batch, we received several "fake problems and requests" to get a compensation from us. But before speculation arises ; We offered him 150€ as compensation and questioned about some details of the product ( Verification Code e.g.) to take further actions.


Awesome... thank you for coming in and clearing things up. 

That is a hefty amount considering. Hopefully we don't see more moving forward... (I'll take bets we don't... I love to gamble).


----------



## Bones (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> Right...buuuut... this isn't a diamond based product AFAIK...


That's true buuuuut.....
Was in referral to what was above my post and we are talking about stuff getting scratched here as part of the topic. 

I will say out of TIM's I've used (So Far) MX4 carbon has worked great.


----------



## xkm1948 (Dec 10, 2019)

Any specific way to tell which batch is bad batch? I still have all my OG packaging. I did verify the serial number on the website and it was actual product.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> That is a hefty amount considering. Hopefully we don't see more moving forward... (I'll take bets we don't... I love to gamble).



Basically a cost of a new D-15S  . Either way that CPU is gonna need lapping as well as the old CPU cooler.


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Basically a cost of a new D-15S  . Either way that CPU is gonna need lapping as well as the old CPU cooler.


MEH. I wouldn't even bother. The amount of time and effort for the yields isnt worth it to me.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Dec 10, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> MEH. I wouldn't even bother. The amount of time and effort for the yields isnt worth it to me.




Its just to get rid of the scratching and pitting mind you. Specially if the D15s is pitted. 
Lap it, sell it. Profit


----------



## EarthDog (Dec 10, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Its just to get rid of the scratching and pitting mind you. Specially if the D15s is pitted.
> Lap it, sell it. Profit





EarthDog said:


> MEH. I wouldn't even bother. The amount of time and effort for the yields isnt worth it to me.



If this guy found Kryo to be 2C worse, he needs to work on his application and mounting before he laps. It really won't make a difference outside of looks.. but to each their own.


----------



## biffzinker (Dec 10, 2019)

No compensation for the scratched to hell heat spreader on i7-8700K? You can barely make out the S-Spec batch number now.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> No compensation for the scratched to hell heat spreader on i7-8700K? You can barely make out the S-Spec batch number now.


You can buy a new copper IHS and D15S cooler from 150EU. Let's not exaggerate, mistakes happen, TG took full responsibility and solved it in just a day, which I am 100% OK with, in fact it exceeds my expectations.
The cooling performance is hardly affected, and the 8700K doesn't have warranty either, since I delidded it. PC is functional and cooling is just fine (with NTH1 paste). If we find a way to make sure that a batch of Kryonaut is not "scratchy", I'll buy another tube myself, since I want to see how the good batches perform (this scratchy batch performs a bit worse than NTH1 which I assume is not supposed to be the case).


----------



## freeagent (Dec 10, 2019)

At least you got a new cooler. Had that been any other company I highly doubt you would have seen the same outcome. Nice.


----------



## toyo (Dec 10, 2019)

freeagent said:


> At least you got a new cooler. Had that been any other company I highly doubt you would have seen the same outcome. Nice.


Had very positive RMA experiences with Logitech and Steelseries as well. Logitech insisted to send me a new mouse for an old MX1100 that would slightly fail at times to connect with the wireless receiver, I just hoped for some firmware/driver fix, but their support pushed really hard to send a new mouse for some reason. When it arrived, it was not a MX1100 (which I assume was no longer produced), but a brand new Performance MX.
As for Steelseries, their famed Rival 600 mouse has a propensity for losing its rubber sides which can be pretty much just be glued back on. SS sent me a new Rival 600 though, because they did not have the detachable sides in store yet.
But yeah, in general it's quite jarring to have to deal with RMA, and many corporations "fix" the product and send it back to you. I remember some Thermaltake mouse that they had to remove the feet from to open it up and fix whatever was broken, and they reglued the feet back like shit, and it still broke again just 2 weeks later. After I got angry they sent a new one though.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 10, 2019)

This thread seems to have run it's course. The OP has stated the problem is resolved and there is some pointless bickering going on.


----------

