# Discussion: Rare problem, PC runs on case A but not B



## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

Worth to mention:
I live in a very old building that does not have any kind of electrical grounding. Everytime I touch metal part of a connected electronic device, mostly my computer, it shocks me. The shock is not hurting, instead, irritating. I sit on carpet while disassembling my stuffs.

Story:
Suddenly my PC wont turn on anymore, lets call it PC_1. So I start removing part by part, from memory, vga, hardisk, cpu, down until only motherboard and psu connected. Still won't turn on. Curious, I took another computer, lets called it PC_2. Removed everything but the motherboard and its psu. Now, I start putting in cpu, memory, vga, hardisk from PC_1 to PC_2 one by one, turns out, they are all works without any problem.

Again, curious, I put away everything from PC_2. *So now there are only 2 cases, and 1 set of hardware*.

Result:
Assembled everything in PC_1 case: wont turn on, no led, no beep, no nothing
Assembled everything in PC_2 case: works, no problem

Both cases shocks me when I touch any metal parts of it. Small shock, barely noticable; in some places though, strong enough it stings a bit.
The only differences between each cases is the motherboard standoff. PC_1 case have built-in standoff (welded together along the case), while PC_2 have standard removable standoff.

Question:
1. Relating this to my grounding condition, how is this happen?
2. How come it works before?
3. Someone have similar experience?
4. Is there anything like DIY grounding tricks without major electrical work with that copper rod and such.

Thank you


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2016)

are you switching the power supplies too? are you sure its not just the power button? tested via shorting the pins on the mobo?


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

Yep, did that. I also confirm buttons works fine on both cases. Both power supply works in PC_2, do nothing in PC_1.
I going to try assembling PC_1 again and take it to my friend's house. See if it turns on or not.


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## xfia (Jan 27, 2016)

Im not sure what the hell is going on but you shouldnt need any extra grounding since your all good once the power supply is connected to the motherboard and plugged into the wall. Strange that the case with built in stand-offs is the one not working because yeah they are welded.
Is it that 1 mobo is working and 1 is not?


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

@xfia
There is nothing wrong with any hardware on both computer, including the PSU and motherboard. It just magically doesn't work when you assemblied it in case with built-in standoff

Is it normal to get shocked whenever I touch any metal parts of any power-connected peripherals?
Because it shouldn't be, if the power outlet has proper grounding. In my office, I can touch any metal parts insides my PC while it turned on without getting shocked.
Days ago, my friend brings his macbook to my place, plug the charger, and it shocks him just by touching his mac.
Grounding a whole building requires hiring technician and quite costly.


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2016)

i'm going to say the grounding issues are causing the problem, since one case must be earthing differently to the other.

other than using earthed outlets, you probably cant do anything about it.


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## ne6togadno (Jan 27, 2016)

@azdesign which country do you live?


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

Indonesia. 
Changing outlets works.. I bring my PC_1 to kitchen, tried plugging into kitchen outlet, turn on, works... 
I just don't know whats going on anymore, my kitchen should be same ungrounded as well.
So yeah, going to call technician to ground every single outlets


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## ne6togadno (Jan 27, 2016)

azdesign said:


> Indonesia.
> Changing outlets works.. I bring my PC_1 to kitchen, tried plugging into kitchen outlet, turn on, works...
> I just don't know whats going on anymore, my kitchen should be same ungrounded as well.
> So yeah, going to call technician to ground every single outlets


do you get shocked when you touch metal parts of your stove or pc when it is plugged in kitchen


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

yes, just like any other outlets in my house


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## ne6togadno (Jan 27, 2016)

hmmm
how long do you live in this house. did you bought it resently or it is long house. how long is since you have this problem.
what kind of plugs do you have in your house schuko or something else.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 27, 2016)

Your problem is your house socket does not seem to have an Earth point to ground electronics with exposed metal parts. The solution is to have earth points on all sockets. It is not expensive fix if you have basic wiring skills. 

By the way how you power socket look like? Is is just two points only or two pin plugs? If so that is the cause of grounding problems. For a socket to have grounding it needs one more pin called the earth. This is use to ground any excess electricity that leaked to a metal. For two pins plug electronics use what is called double insulation to prevent shocks.


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

Been here for about 7 years. Had different kind of PC until now but this case with built-in standoff is my first since 3 months ago. Never had any problem before with failures caused by static.
Yep schuko 2 prongs plugs. I did more test again just now, plug into different kind of outlets. Bathroom, garage, bedroom. 3 places, 2 works, 1 doesn't. So random

--edit

I don't have electrical knowledge, gonna call technician later.
Should I change all outlets into 3 pin?


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## ne6togadno (Jan 27, 2016)

what kind are the sockets you've tried
like this






or like this


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

the 2nd one, with metal on sides


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 27, 2016)

azdesign said:


> the 2nd one, with metal on sides



The metal on the sides of the sockets is the Earth point. Now we know that you are off to a good start as there is less electrical work to do. Now what is left to know it the plug. Does you plug of your PC have metal points at the side?


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

yes, plug also have metal on sides.

-- edit

opens up one of the plug, cable consists of 2 wire, no wire for ground. The plug accept 3 points


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## Frick (Jan 27, 2016)

azdesign said:


> yes, plug also have metal on sides.
> 
> -- edit
> 
> opens up one of the plug, cable consists of 2 wire, no wire for ground. The plug accept 3 points



Yeah was gonna say that doesn't mean it's grounded. You might not have ground anywhere.


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## xfia (Jan 27, 2016)

well since you have the grounded outlets when your home was built they either got lazy and didnt ground anything or a wiesel ate through the wire


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

I remember when I replaced one of the outlets long time ago, there were only 2 wires inside the pipe on the wall, the 3rd, ground wire is missing thus not connected to the outlet


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## xfia (Jan 27, 2016)

I use to live in a place that didnt have grounded outlets so I moved eventually.. I mean if you rent then dont pay to fix a house that is not yours.
I was able to make my pc work fine with a nice power strip. 
Never got shocked liked you but I could make the pc hang just by touching it for a second.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 27, 2016)

Can you try using a plug with all 3 points wired up? Yes that would mean that grounding is not in use when it is not wired up. Grounding point should be standard in many houses today as it is a very big safety feature in the case of an electrical failure to prevent electrical shocks. Definetly get a an electrician to look at it.

Just a sidenote, the case without the welded standoff works because it is more insulated than the case with the welded stand off. Technically you can make you PC "double insulated" by taping electrical tape on any exposed metal parts like the standoff and the PSU so it would not end up shocking the case. Even so I do not recommend doing that as the PC is not design from the ground up to be like that with this "floating ground" design. It not very safe.


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

@xfia
pc hang after touching it? hmm, never knew it possible

@MIRTAZAPINE 
Thanks I will soon find eletrician to work in my house. Is putting a UPS between outlet and my PC will have some kind of grounding? Aren't they run on DC?


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## xfia (Jan 27, 2016)

Yeah it would like flicker and crash too but not at a friends with a brand new house. 
You dont actually get grounded if a UPS is not grounded at the wall.. 
Guess I could say it stabilized things a bit for me or something.
I just mentioned it because old houses can just be that old so the electrician comes to do his thing and then he says something about the foundation, pipes etc.. and 3 building maintenance companies in your realizing you could put a down payment on a modern house or apartment.


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## ne6togadno (Jan 27, 2016)

aha so problem is that gorunding isnt connected at all.
you can fix it by yourself it isnt hard but you have to be careful and to turn off power before you start workng.
here is guide how to wire schuko plug http://www.howtospecialist.com/installation/electrical/how-to-wire-and-install-an-electric-output/
but most likely wireing in your house dont have grounding cable (green/yellow one) or you wouldnt have problems you have.
in order to fix this you need mains tester like this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  , screw driver and some spare wire (0.75-1mm2).
check where is live wire with tester and on socket cover put dot with marker over hole of life wire. turn off power and remove cover. transfer marker dot to the base of the socket (the part that is in the wall) and take out socket base from the wall.
cut ~5cm from spare wire and strip about 1cm insulation from both sides.
wire grounding pin to the nul cable (the one *W/O* marker dot). if wireing in you house is made properly all life wires should be same coler but still check em with tester for just in case.
tighten bolts of the wires and check with 2 fingers and mid force if you can pull out cables out of their places. if cable popped out reseat it and tighten bolts again.
reseat socket in the wall place cover back turn on power and test all pins with mains tester (*grounding pin too*). if tester lights on anything beside marked pin you've made a mistake with wireing.
if everything is ok you can test socket with real device. plug it into socket and check if you are shocked from metal parts.
repeat for all sockets in your house.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 27, 2016)

A UPS would still not prevent shocks when touching the case. A ups connected between the socket and your pc is still supplying in AC. Also a Ups or surge protector need a grounding point for it to function well enough. Your Psu is the one responsible for turning it to dc current. That is why its power is measure in Voltage-ampere for it power rather than watt. Static build up would still happens.

It is true you can ghetto build ground points like connecting wires of your case to water pipe or a metal rod to the ground to get the grounding. It'll worked but the former is abit dangerous if the pipe have water that you use. The latter is how grounding work in its basic form. It is cheap way but I would still recommend doing it the proper way. If you have a metal rod around and hammer. It can be way to grounding.

Good luck Op which ever way that is easier and affordable for you.


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

Thanks, I'll try. If got in trouble, I'll call those electricians


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## xfia (Jan 27, 2016)

I will show you what its like in the US since I got to learn about Indonesia.









The left socket is modern with negative positive and earth but on the right is what I use to have that is old with no earth and bad for almost everything unless your talking about charging a cell phone.
The electrical box right below in the big picture is outdated and they usually dont look so good and are actually older in a lot of houses if they have not been replaced. You can have a lot of problems with having to replace fuses and being overloaded.. especially in the summer with air conditioners.




This one on the right is our modern electrical circuit breaker box. No more fuses and no more problems.


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

your 3 pin socket looks like a face 
Never seen house with big electrical box like above. Usually houses around here have very small electrical box that consist of single switch
Good to know, thanks


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 27, 2016)

azdesign said:


> your 3 pin socket looks like a face
> Never seen house with big electrical box like above. Usually houses around here have very small electrical box that consist of single switch
> Good to know, thanks



Their called circuit breakers in my place. What it does is all the wiring in the house is wired to it and then it is wired outside to your power company. The function of the circuit breakers is well like its name suggest to break circuits if there is a short-circuit somewhere in the house or building. Old circuit breakers like what @xfia  shown uses fuses to cut the circuit when there is short somewhere protecting the house from fires. The downside is fuses are one time use. When the fuses is broken it would have to replaced. It would sucked having to change it when there is power surges or power spike tripping the breakers. It is also more dangerous changing fuses as the electricity is still flowing if you never off the mains form the power company.  Modern circuit breaker uses a magnetic switch rather than a fuse. When there is a short-circuit the the switch is flip off cutting the circuit. Their much better than fuses and would not require changes when it is tripped, you just have to flip the switch back on. 

I think your house is probably the modern one a simple modern one. I am just guessing.


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## azdesign (Jan 27, 2016)

This is what our breaker looks like. Very traditional.
The left picure is the breaker that connect to power company line. Still using analogue power consumption counter.
The right picture is the fuse inside the house. Still using that old cylinder fuse. One time usage, need to be replaced if blown.


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## Brusfantomet (Jan 29, 2016)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> Their called circuit breakers in my place. What it does is all the wiring in the house is wired to it and then it is wired outside to your power company. The function of the circuit breakers is well like its name suggest to break circuits if there is a short-circuit somewhere in the house or building. Old circuit breakers like what @xfia  shown uses fuses to cut the circuit when there is short somewhere protecting the house from fires. The downside is fuses are one time use. When the fuses is broken it would have to replaced. It would sucked having to change it when there is power surges or power spike tripping the breakers. It is also more dangerous changing fuses as the electricity is still flowing if you never off the mains form the power company.  Modern circuit breaker uses a magnetic switch rather than a fuse. When there is a short-circuit the the switch is flip off cutting the circuit. Their much better than fuses and would not require changes when it is tripped, you just have to flip the switch back on.
> 
> I think your house is probably the modern one a simple modern one. I am just guessing.



Fun fact, modern fuses (at least in Europe) have two modes for braking the circuit, one i the magnetic one (for fast blow) and one is thermo trigger, blowing at low over-current (ca 11 A for a 10 A b fuse. 17.5 A for a 16 A b fuse)
Op has modern main breaker (under the power counter), but only one phase!


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## hat (Jan 30, 2016)

I strongly recommend staying away from all of that and either calling the pros or moving. If you do it yourself, and you don't know what you are doing (and it seems you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be asking us) it's possible you could either be hurt or outright killed by something.

Not trying to put down your ability to do anything man, but when it comes to anything electrical it's best to be 100% sure before you start stuff like this,


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2016)

ne6togadno said:


> aha so problem is that gorunding isnt connected at all.
> you can fix it by yourself it isnt hard but you have to be careful and to turn off power before you start workng.
> here is guide how to wire schuko plug http://www.howtospecialist.com/installation/electrical/how-to-wire-and-install-an-electric-output/
> but most likely wireing in your house dont have grounding cable (green/yellow one) or you wouldnt have problems you have.
> ...



Don't do this. If you get it wrong you'll have 230v on your toaster case. If there's no ground, there's no ground. Adding a faux one in the sockets doesn't solve anything, just makes it dangerous.



hat said:


> I strongly recommend staying away from all of that and either calling the pros or moving. If you do it yourself, and you don't know what you are doing (and it seems you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be asking us) it's possible you could either be hurt or outright killed by something.
> 
> Not trying to put down your ability to do anything man, but when it comes to anything electrical it's best to be 100% sure before you start stuff like this,



This. Do it wrong and things might burn.


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## ne6togadno (Jan 30, 2016)

Frick said:


> Don't do this. If you get it wrong you'll have 230v on your toaster case. If there's no ground, there's no ground. Adding a faux one in the sockets doesn't solve anything, just makes it dangerous.


too late. all sockets in my house are already nullified and everything is running fine. 
leaving it w/o grounding could be far more dangerous then nullifying sockets and testing you you did it right.


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2016)

ne6togadno said:


> too late. all sockets in my house are already nullified and everything is running fine.
> leaving it w/o grounding could be far more dangerous then nullifying sockets and testing you you did it right.



When would it be far more dangerous?


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 30, 2016)

I do agree with Frick. Wiring the wrong order is a common beginners mistake that can yield disastrous consequences.


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## bencrutz (Jan 30, 2016)

azdesign said:


> This is what our breaker looks like. Very traditional.
> The left picure is the breaker that connect to power company line. Still using analogue power consumption counter.
> The right picture is the fuse inside the house. Still using that old cylinder fuse. One time usage, need to be replaced if blown.



1st thing to check with the electrician is the main grounding, from PLN's meter there should be 2 wires: 1 live & 1 neutral, from there the neutral is bonded with earth/ground wire so that there should be 3 wires coming off the fuse: 1 live (through the fuse), 1 neutral & 1 PE/ground.

if the earthing/grounding (that should be bonded after the meter) is missing, you would need to install one coz it is actually mandatory for SLO (newer installation is required to have SLO (sertifikat laik operasi) before PLN connect it to their distribution line. if it's already there then you would just need to install new cable for the PE (protective earth/grounding) to all socket outlets.


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## ne6togadno (Jan 30, 2016)

Frick said:


> When would it be far more dangerous?


when you have leakage from live wire because of damage insulation and you touch metal parts of device. you dont know when it will happen or to whom will happen
(could be kid!!) nor you know if you will be in home to help or even if you are will you have time to react or will you react fast enough. such situation with so much factors that are out of control is far more dangerous than braking some fuses or sockets with wrong wiring.
i also said


ne6togadno said:


> turn on power and test all pins with mains tester (*grounding pin too*). if tester lights on anything beside marked pin you've made a mistake with wireing.


if op is confident enough to replace socket by himself he can do this too. it isnt anything different beside a bit more work to be done. if op isnt confident to try he can always call technician


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2016)

ne6togadno said:


> when you have leakage from live wire because of damage insulation and you touch metal parts of device. you dont know when it will happen or to whom will happen
> (could be kid!!) nor you know if you will be in home to help or even if you are will you have time to react or will you react fast enough. such situation with so much factors that are out of control is far more dangerous than braking some fuses or sockets with wrong wiring.
> i also said



And if the neutral gets loose you get the same effect.


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## taz420nj (Jan 30, 2016)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I do agree with Frick. Wiring the wrong order is a common beginners mistake that can yield disastrous consequences.



Considering Schukos are not polarized (meaning you can insert the plug in either orientation), unless you were to attach the phase (brown or yellow) to the ground prong, the order doesn't make any difference.



Frick said:


> And if the neutral gets loose you get the same effect.



That is generally only an issue in split-phase (2 hot+neutral) appliances using a 3 wire/3 prong connection.  Up until about 20 years ago they used to allow the chassis of things like electric stoves, dryers, etc to be bonded to neutral.  This would still trip a breaker if a phase was shorted to chassis, except if the neutral was loose/open.  Thats why code was changed to require a separate equipment ground conductor (EGC) and 4 prong plug. Regular plug-in equipment such as a lamp, toaster or computer power supply NEVER has the neutral bonded to the chassis.  This is especially true of any equipment with an IEC interchangeable cord that could have something like a Schuko or Europlug on the end which is not polarized, because that could potentially put phase current to the chassis.

Now seeing what the OP has, if he is getting zapped by his computer and appliances, and if he has 3 prong Schukos it indicates that there is current on the EGC - which means not only is it improperly installed and/or disconnected at his main breaker, but also that something else that's plugged in either has a phase short to ground or an improper neutral -> EGC bond.  Just because there is no ground wire connected to the Schuko doesn't mean there isn't a conductive path between the different outlets in the house..  The ground clips on any grounded outlet are also connected to its metal mounting bracket (unless it is specifically designed with an isolated ground - these are colored orange and have a Δ symbol on the face, usually only found in hospitals and such).  If it is installed in a metal box with a metal conduit or armored cable between them, that can act as a conductive path.

The pic of his meter isn't very clear, but I see a yellow wire that doesn't appear to be connected - if it is yellow and green, this is probably his EGC. It looks like a brown wire is behind it connecting to the breaker.  I know a lot of asian/european countries used off-standard colors years ago, so if I could see a better pic of whats in there I could say for sure. I also do not see a GEC (grounding electrode conductor - the wire that is supposed to go to the ground rod) coming out of the main breaker box.


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## thebluebumblebee (Jan 30, 2016)

Check the USB ports on the first case.  Shorted USB ports can prevent the system from starting.


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2016)

taz420nj said:


> That is generally only an issue in split-phase (2 hot+neutral) appliances using a 3 wire/3 prong connection.  Up until about 20 years ago they used to allow the chassis of things like electric stoves, dryers, etc to be bonded to neutral.  This would still trip a breaker if a phase was shorted to chassis, except if the neutral was loose/open.  Thats why code was changed to require a separate equipment ground conductor (EGC) and 4 prong plug. Regular plug-in equipment such as a lamp, toaster or computer power supply NEVER has the neutral bonded to the chassis.  This is especially true of any equipment with an IEC interchangeable cord that could have something like a Schuko or Europlug on the end which is not polarized, because that could potentially put phase current to the chassis.



That is exactly why you wouldn't connect the ground to the neutral in the socket, isn't it?


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## taz420nj (Jan 30, 2016)

Frick said:


> That is exactly why you wouldn't connect the ground to the neutral in the socket, isn't it?



I had to re-read that post a couple times because I didn't realize that's what ne6togadno was saying to do - I thought he was saying to just install a grounded outlet without the ground..   You're right, that's called a bootleg ground, and it's dangerous for the same reason they no longer allow it in large appliances.  Under normal cconditions it would technically be safer than what he has now, because the chassis becomes grounded (a bootleg ground at the outlet is different than bonding in a non-polarized device), and it WOULD let a short to chassis trip the breaker, but if the neutral is open it will allow current to backfeed to the chassis - which is a variation of what he is experiencing now..

So the OP has to figure out if there is a conductive path between the outlets, and if there is he has to figure out why there is current running along it.  I know surface wiring is common in europe and asia, so if that's what he has it probably won't be all that difficult to add a true ground wire.


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## Laurijan (Jan 31, 2016)

I dont got grounding either in my living room only bath and kitchen. I have pulled an extension cord from the kitchen to the living room to my PC desk


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## azdesign (Jan 31, 2016)

bencrutz said:


> 1st thing to check with the electrician is the main grounding, from PLN's meter there should be 2 wires: 1 live & 1 neutral, from there the neutral is bonded with earth/ground wire so that there should be 3 wires coming off the fuse: 1 live (through the fuse), 1 neutral & 1 PE/ground.
> 
> if the earthing/grounding (that should be bonded after the meter) is missing, you would need to install one coz it is actually mandatory for SLO (newer installation is required to have SLO (sertifikat laik operasi) before PLN connect it to their distribution line. if it's already there then you would just need to install new cable for the PE (protective earth/grounding) to all socket outlets.


Thank you, mine was a pretty old house and I don't want to risk opening PLN's seal just to see the wires, so I'm gonna call electrician.



thebluebumblebee said:


> Check the USB ports on the first case.  Shorted USB ports can prevent the system from starting.


USB works fine

To everyone, thank you for your feedbacks. I don't really understand about electricity and I don't want to take risk doing modification, even the simple one. So to be safe, I called electricians to do it.
They will be doing their work next week and hopefully will fix my issue.


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## ne6togadno (Jan 31, 2016)

azdesign said:


> I called electricians to do it.
> They will be doing their work next week and hopefully will fix my issue.


safest solution


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## bencrutz (Jan 31, 2016)

azdesign said:


> Thank you, mine was a pretty old house and I don't want to risk opening PLN's seal just to see the wires, so I'm gonna call electrician.



no, you don't need to open the meter's seal. just check the wires running from the meter to the fuse box inside. just ask the electrician to check the main grounding.


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