# New Rig, New Questions



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 1, 2013)

Hi all,

So, i've been contemplating building my own rig for a while now, and am finally getting my arse into gear about it! I'm not looking at anything expensive, or high-end (i5 / i7 builds), just a nice quad-core rig with tasteful power, potential for overclocking, and long-term fun really.

Just as a forenote: I live in the UK, so i deal in £'s not $'s, and as such am excluded from purchases on everyone's favorite website NewEgg AFAIK.

So far then, this is how the list looks:

*CPU:* AMD FX-4170 BE
*Mobo:* ASRock Extreme 3 970
*GPU:* Radeon 7850?
*PSU:* Corsair CX500M
*RAM:* [Unsure]
*Case:* Antec One (or better in the £40 - £50 range)
*HDD:* Seagate or WD 1TB 7,200rpm

So, there are a number of variables in the mix at the moment, however, i've got a few pressing questions for you all really, one of them being:

*Question 1:* With a Case such as the Antec One which only comes with 2 Exhaust Fans, will i need a Fan Controller on the front I/O to install the remaining 2 or 3? Should i look for extra connections on a motherboard for more fans to be compatible with these cases?

*Best Answer to 1:*


Norton said:


> This cable will run all of your fans and allow automatic speed adjustment off of the motherboard 4 pin connector:
> 
> http://www.evercool.com.tw/categories/global/cables/fancablesadapters/ec-df001/ec_df001.php
> 
> *Note- cables have plenty of length to reach just about any fan position... the black braiding is also very nice (I've used this on a build of my own)



*Question 2:* Are there any recommended power supplies out there for my sort-of build? I've been looking between the OCZ ModXStream 600w and ZS550w, but sadly OCZ's reviews are highly mixed, and i'm just losing my confidence in my ability to choose & designate which one to definitely go for? Suggestions perhaps? (1 for the 7770 Vapor X, 1 for the 7850 of unknown brand)

*Best Answer to Question 2:*


tokyoduong said:


> Hi, yes you are absolutely correct about the listed minimum requirement. When manufacturers list PSU requirements, they do it conservatively. They do not know what psu you are using and they are listing that rating to make sure that even a crappy psu will be enough to run the card. Many cheap PSU has high power ratings because they crank the amps on the 3V and 5V lines. Some has multiple 12V rails that does not even work well together. When looking for a PSU, look for the 12V rail amps rating. It will look something like "32A 12V". That means 32x12=384 watts. Now calculate what will be sucking juice from your 12 V rail. Most of it will come from your video card and cpu. Make sure you look at max draw or worst case scenario and still leave a 20% buffer so you don't ever overload your psu and burn it out.
> 
> Just read a few PSU reviews and you'll understand it. One website I like reading PSU reviews is johnnyguru or here at tpu.
> 
> For PSU, look for Seasonic as the gold standard. Corsair uses Seasonic platforms and rebrands them. There are other good brands but the prices are very high. For you I suggest you look into buying a CX430 or CX500. If you have money for modular then move to TX series or HX. Main difference between TX and HX is bronze or gold rating. These are all Corsair(do not buy Corsair HX650 as it has a faulty fan).



*Question 3:* Motherboards! Motherboards everywhere! - I'm currently reading in here and elsewhere about the ASRock 970 EXTREME3 being a fairly good mobo for the money for that 4170 BE, and currently the best deal i've found is £70.68 for it, but out of curiosity, could i do better for that kind of money? I'd really rather not step up the money TOO much more as the budget is looking at about £550 max atm.

I know that as i think about this more, i'm going to have lots more questions, so please keep an eye on this first post as i'll just edit it each time a question is answered fully and put said answer in quotes 

Thanks people!


----------



## erocker (Mar 1, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> 1: With a Case such as the Antec One which only comes with 2 Exhaust Fans, will i need a Fan Controller on the front I/O to install the remaining 2 or 3? Should i look for extra connections on a motherboard for more fans to be compatible with these cases?



Unless you want to control the speed of the fans, no you don't need a fan controller. You can just hook them up to the motherboard or use an adapter to a 4 pin molex. The only thing you need to check for compatibility with your case is the size of the fan.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 1, 2013)

erocker said:


> Unless you want to control the speed of the fans, no you don't need a fan controller. You can just hook them up to the motherboard or use an adapter to a 4 pin molex. The only thing you need to check for compatibility with your case is the size of the fan.



Disregard previous post; wasn't actually reading what i was looking at.

That does pose a new question to me though, is there any way to have smart fans or something? Ones like on CPU Coolers or GPU Coolers that automatically adjust speed depending on ambient temperature?


----------



## Jetster (Mar 1, 2013)

There are fan controllers (like the one that comes with the Swiftech H220) That run off a 4 pin molex but have a 4 pin PWM that connects to the CPU fan header and control the speed of all your fans based off that temp


----------



## xvi (Mar 1, 2013)

For fans, I'd just use what's built in to the motherboard. It'll monitor temps and adjust fans accordingly.


----------



## Norton (Mar 1, 2013)

This cable will run all of your fans and allow automatic speed adjustment off of the motherboard 4 pin connector:

http://www.evercool.com.tw/categories/global/cables/fancablesadapters/ec-df001/ec_df001.php

*Note- cables have plenty of length to reach just about any fan position... the black braiding is also very nice (I've used this on a build of my own)

On the motherboard- spring for the M5A97 *Evo* rather than the standard model. The Evo has better VRM/power (6+2) and has the necessary heatsinks for cooling the VRM circuitry (better for overclocking)

EDIT- and consider a 7850 (1GB or 2GB) over a 7770....for a significant boost in GPU power for not much extra cash


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 1, 2013)

Norton said:


> On the motherboard- spring for the M5A97 *Evo* rather than the standard model. The Evo has better VRM/power (6+2) and has the necessary heatsinks for cooling the VRM circuitry (better for overclocking)
> 
> EDIT- and consider a 7850 (1GB or 2GB) over a 7770....for a significant boost in GPU power for not much extra cash



Well i've taken a look at the M5A97 Evo, and it's around £30 more in price than the standard R2.0, and in all honesty i can't justify the extra price right now, if i find one going cheap (£60?) then i might stump up the money for it, but when i stand a chance of getting the standard one by bidding on eBay for less than the usual BIN price, i'd rather go for that since my overclocking will be limited to about 4ghz at most, and even that'll be in the future as i haven't overclocked anything before anyway! 

As for the 7850 over the 7770, personally i feel that the vapor-x from sapphire in the range is not only the best of the 7770's but is also in the 7850's performance range too, with it's core clocks and memory clocks being about the same or even higher, the only thing the 7850's got more of is processing cores, but the most stressful game that i'll be playing with this rig is ArmA 2 & DayZ, and in the future, ArmA 3 possibly, so i'd rather keep the headroom from that PSU free for now as i know the vapor-x will retain it's price for future upgrades


----------



## Norton (Mar 1, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> Well i've taken a look at the M5A97 Evo, and it's around £30 more in price than the standard R2.0, and in all honesty i can't justify the extra price right now, if i find one going cheap (£60?) then i might stump up the money for it, but when i stand a chance of getting the standard one by bidding on eBay for less than the usual BIN price, i'd rather go for that since my overclocking will be limited to about 4ghz at most, and even that'll be in the future as i haven't overclocked anything before anyway!
> 
> As for the 7850 over the 7770, personally i feel that the vapor-x from sapphire in the range is not only the best of the 7770's but is also in the 7850's performance range too, with it's core clocks and memory clocks being about the same or even higher, the only thing the 7850's got more of is processing cores, but the most stressful game that i'll be playing with this rig is ArmA 2 & DayZ, and in the future, ArmA 3 possibly, so i'd rather keep the headroom from that PSU free for now as i know the vapor-x will retain it's price for future upgrades



You will need the better VRM and the extra cooling if you want 4Ghz out of a 965BE. The standard M5A97 will likely do the job but the board temps will run high.

A 7850 will give you 40% or so more performance over a 7770 and can run as well as a Radeon 6970 or a GTX 570 (no 7770 will run in the range of a 7850). The reference boards (7770 and 7850) run very cool even with a mild overclock so just about any brand will be fine.

I've run all of these components including the 7770, 7850 and 965BE as well as all of the other crap in my sig (all 24/7, overclocked, and at 100% load) so I speak from experience.

It's your cash, I'm just saying imho it's worth the extra cost to bump those components up a bit


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 1, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> Disregard previous post; wasn't actually reading what i was looking at.
> 
> That does pose a new question to me though, is there any way to have smart fans or something? Ones like on CPU Coolers or GPU Coolers that automatically adjust speed depending on ambient temperature?



You don't need a smart fan for your CPU cooler. Pretty much all new motherboards have built in temp reading and auto fan control. I haven't had a motherboard that doesn't have auto fan control. 

No I have high doubt you will need to run 2 exhaust fans for this computer. Have one in front and one in the back and you're good.

You'll see fan pins on your motherboard and there's always one near the CPU socket. There should another one for system fan(some boards have more than 2). Some boards have more. Number of pins on them tells you what they can do. 4 pins uses PWM to control fan speed while 3 pins has to be controlled by voltage(sometimes no control or 100% permanent speed). 

The only people i know that uses an external fan controller are people that runs a lot of fans and/or an elaborate watercooling set up. Some people have a fan controller so they can control noise level and/or easy view of system temperatures.

To respond to your comment about 7770 and 7850. It is true that core count is different. The real reason why 7770 cannot keep up with the 7850 has more to do with memory bandwidth. As resolution rise and details cranked up with MSAA, you are looking at massive bandwidth requirements. The 7770 runs on 128-bit while the 7850 is 256-bit. They both use GDDR5 and roughly the same speed so the 7800s should have close to twice the bandwidth of 7700s.

For your set up, you only need a 400w psu. You want to have 500w to keep max load from exceeding 80% of PSU. 600W is not necessary unless you are trying to do max OC. With your budget constraints and minimum knowledge, you should not do massive OCs anyways.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 3, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> To respond to your comment about 7770 and 7850. It is true that core count is different. The real reason why 7770 cannot keep up with the 7850 has more to do with memory bandwidth. As resolution rise and details cranked up with MSAA, you are looking at massive bandwidth requirements. The 7770 runs on 128-bit while the 7850 is 256-bit. They both use GDDR5 and roughly the same speed so the 7800s should have close to twice the bandwidth of 7700s.
> 
> For your set up, you only need a 400w psu. You want to have 500w to keep max load from exceeding 80% of PSU. 600W is not necessary unless you are trying to do max OC. With your budget constraints and minimum knowledge, you should not do massive OCs anyways.



Well, thankyou for the info about the 7770 / 7850, if i do manage to spot a decent brand 7850 within the same price as that Vapor-X i'll be sure to keep an eye on it!

Main thing i'd like to know actually is, atm the 7770 vapor-x i BELIEVE when i last looked required a 450w PSU minimum, but what would a 7850 require should i end up being able to get hold of one?


----------



## Norton (Mar 3, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> Well, thankyou for the info about the 7770 / 7850, if i do manage to spot a decent brand 7850 within the same price as that Vapor-X i'll be sure to keep an eye on it!
> 
> Main thing i'd like to know actually is, atm the 7770 vapor-x i BELIEVE when i last looked required a 450w PSU minimum, but what would a 7850 require should i end up being able to get hold of one?



Recommended psu is 500w for a 7850 but I don't think you will need anything more than a quaility 450w to run that card..... step up to 600w if you will eventually intend to put an FX 8 core cpu in the rig or if you want to go crossfire at some point (2x 7850's in crossfire can keep up with or beat a 7970 in games that work well in crossfire)


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 3, 2013)

Please refer to opening post for next set of questions


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 4, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> Well, thankyou for the info about the 7770 / 7850, if i do manage to spot a decent brand 7850 within the same price as that Vapor-X i'll be sure to keep an eye on it!
> 
> Main thing i'd like to know actually is, atm the 7770 vapor-x i BELIEVE when i last looked required a 450w PSU minimum, but what would a 7850 require should i end up being able to get hold of one?



Hi, yes you are absolutely correct about the listed minimum requirement. When manufacturers list PSU requirements, they do it conservatively. They do not know what psu you are using and they are listing that rating to make sure that even a crappy psu will be enough to run the card. Many cheap PSU has high power ratings because they crank the amps on the 3V and 5V lines. Some has multiple 12V rails that does not even work well together. When looking for a PSU, look for the 12V rail amps rating. It will look something like "32A 12V". That means 32x12=384 watts. Now calculate what will be sucking juice from your 12 V rail. Most of it will come from your video card and cpu. Make sure you look at max draw or worst case scenario and still leave a 20% buffer so you don't ever overload your psu and burn it out.

I am using a 430W PSU to power my computer(3570k + 7850). Even if I use a Seasonc 360W Gold PSU, it will still work) You can see it in my spec. I knew that my PSU will work because I read and understand the spec and requirements. Just read a few PSU reviews and you'll understand it. One website I like reading PSU reviews is johnnyguru or here at tpu.

For PSU, look for Seasonic as the gold standard. Corsair uses Seasonic platforms and rebrands them. There are other good brands but the prices are very high. For you I suggest you look into buying a CX430 or CX500. If you have money for modular then move to TX series or HX. Main difference between TX and HX is bronze or gold rating. These are all Corsair(do not buy Corsair HX650 as it has a faulty fan).


----------



## Kwod (Mar 4, 2013)

FWIW, I noticed that a Gigabyte 7870 2gig is virtually 100% faster compared to a 7770.
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/his_radeon_7950_x_iceq_review,18.html

10 fps vs 20fps in Crysis3.

I "had" a 6850{epic upgrade over 4850}, but now need to build another PC, and back in OZ, it's $250 for a Gigabyte 7870 vs $120 for a Saphire 7770 1 gig, but it's nearly twice as fast.

7770 is about the same pace as my old and dead 6850, but the 6850 wasn't and doesn't cut it anymore IMO.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 4, 2013)

Kwod said:


> FWIW, I noticed that a Gigabyte 7870 2gig is virtually 100% faster compared to a 7770.
> http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/his_radeon_7950_x_iceq_review,18.html
> 
> 10 fps vs 20fps in Crysis3.
> ...



Yes, but for budget minded people the sweet spot is 7850. It has close to the performance of the 7870 and comes clocked slower using the same chip. That means you can just bump the clock up and get performance on par with 7870. Of course the 7870 has a few more shaders.

BTW, you should not be looking at unplayable frame rates. It is a bad reference for comparison.


----------



## d1nky (Mar 4, 2013)

I had the 7770 and wasn't impressed at all, id recommend buying from dabs.com/overclockers.co.uk/ebuyer.co.uk and like people said the 7870 is a better choice.

as for the board a few guys here aren't keen on the asus and digi vrms, as a beginner to overclocking asrock seems a better choice, and people here praise the extreme 3/4 for budget.

and these guys will give you good advice on psu and requirements.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 4, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> BTW, you should not be looking at unplayable frame rates. It is a bad reference for comparison.



Probably, but at 1080 it's 30 vs 14....so drop a few detail settings and 7870 is playable at 1080, but 7770 will struggle.
I hate the PC HW market lately, I want Titan smoothness and power for $699 but it's $1250AUD.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 4, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> Hi, yes you are absolutely correct about the listed minimum requirement. When manufacturers list PSU requirements, they do it conservatively. They do not know what psu you are using and they are listing that rating to make sure that even a crappy psu will be enough to run the card. Many cheap PSU has high power ratings because they crank the amps on the 3V and 5V lines. Some has multiple 12V rails that does not even work well together. When looking for a PSU, look for the 12V rail amps rating. It will look something like "32A 12V". That means 32x12=384 watts. Now calculate what will be sucking juice from your 12 V rail. Most of it will come from your video card and cpu. Make sure you look at max draw or worst case scenario and still leave a 20% buffer so you don't ever overload your psu and burn it out.
> 
> I am using a 430W PSU to power my computer(3570k + 7850). Even if I use a Seasonc 360W Gold PSU, it will still work) You can see it in my spec. I knew that my PSU will work because I read and understand the spec and requirements. Just read a few PSU reviews and you'll understand it. One website I like reading PSU reviews is johnnyguru or here at tpu.
> 
> For PSU, look for Seasonic as the gold standard. Corsair uses Seasonic platforms and rebrands them. There are other good brands but the prices are very high. For you I suggest you look into buying a CX430 or CX500. If you have money for modular then move to TX series or HX. Main difference between TX and HX is bronze or gold rating. These are all Corsair(do not buy Corsair HX650 as it has a faulty fan).



Some truely good advice there, but the problem is i'm not entirely sure what my components will draw, i'm still looking around between the Phenom II X4 965 BE, or the FX-4100, and i know they both have different power requirements. Plus if i went for the Phenom, i might in the future want to OC it to keep up with modern cpu's when games eventually fully utilise quad-cores, so that'll require extra power, but a 500w would more than likely provide all i'll need for that.. ATM my power requirements will be either a 7770 or 7850 depending on budget, one or two (at most) HDD's, a small SSD if i can find one in a sale, 4 Fans, either of those CPU's, and the normal stuff, front bezel equipment, disc-drive, etc. Do you think either of these will be up to the task?

*Corsair CX500*
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-B...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item2326f73957

*Corsair CX500M*
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-C...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item27ceb9bbcf

Reason i'm looking at those two is because they're VERY close in price, and the modular might be a better choice for the money


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 4, 2013)

d1nky said:


> I had the 7770 and wasn't impressed at all, id recommend buying from dabs.com/overclockers.co.uk/ebuyer.co.uk and like people said the 7870 is a better choice.
> 
> as for the board a few guys here aren't keen on the asus and digi vrms, as a beginner to overclocking asrock seems a better choice, and people here praise the extreme 3/4 for budget.
> 
> and these guys will give you good advice on psu and requirements.



So you mean something like this?

*ASRock 970 EXTRME3*
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ASRock-97...aptopMotherboards_CPUs_CA&hash=item2579cf6a6c


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 4, 2013)

Kwod said:


> Probably, but at 1080 it's 30 vs 14....so drop a few detail settings and 7870 is playable at 1080, but 7770 will struggle.
> I hate the PC HW market lately, I want Titan smoothness and power for $699 but it's $1250AUD.



Lol i want all that for $300 or less. 



LemurHaloEcho said:


> Some truely good advice there, but the problem is i'm not entirely sure what my components will draw, i'm still looking around between the Phenom II X4 965 BE, or the FX-4100, and i know they both have different power requirements. Plus if i went for the Phenom, i might in the future want to OC it to keep up with modern cpu's when games eventually fully utilise quad-cores, so that'll require extra power, but a 500w would more than likely provide all i'll need for that.. ATM my power requirements will be either a 7770 or 7850 depending on budget, one or two (at most) HDD's, a small SSD if i can find one in a sale, 4 Fans, either of those CPU's, and the normal stuff, front bezel equipment, disc-drive, etc. Do you think either of these will be up to the task?
> 
> *Corsair CX500*
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsair-B...omputing_PowerSupplies_EH&hash=item2326f73957
> ...



You can find the max power requirement by looking up reviews. TPU database have plenty of reviews for all these hardware. They always have idle, avg, load, and max power draw in these reviews. Go modular if you can afford it. It's just a lot easier to work on with modular and looks clean.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Phenom_II_X4_980/10.html
In that chart, the closest is Phenom II 970. 78 watts for system at idle and 191 at load. 191-78 = 114 watts + ~10 watts idle= 124. I would guess that this chip should not pass 150W under almost any situation. When OC'd it could be anything since it is not linear and depends on leakage. You are probably limited by thermal when OC than power. Since you don't have a good cooler and case then you're definitely hitting the thermal wall first.

Here's something to think about when you're on a budget. OC should only be free! If you have to pay more for certain parts like psu, motherboards, memory, etc... then you should just buy the better cpu in the first place. I only OC for giggles and enlarge my epeen on benchmarks when I feel like it. You should never build a pc depending on an OC to get you the performance you need. Enthusiasts might argue that but the amount of time and money they put into it is different than people like you and me.

The 7770 shouldn't even be considered if you want this to be a gaming machine. It is just too weak and crawls with the newer games.


----------



## d1nky (Mar 4, 2013)

ditto that! and yes id suggest the asrock extreme 3 or 4. I owned  a 7770 and I cried when it went through 3dmark 2013, it did crawl. (it performed similar to my gts 450 put it that way)! 

I own a low end asus board and have problems ocing, I own the fx4100 and for its money performs and oc well. (contradiction I know) put it like this I had a stable oc of 4.8 for benches etc, but the board and most low end asus (m5) boards throttle down at 100% load ''vrm protection''

if you can get a modular psu then do it, for cable management and aesthetics, I wouldn't be worried about getting more watts than is needed, if you get an extra 200 watt psu itll give a margin for oc and xfire. edit: someone said seasonic, xfx also rebrands the seasonic psu. I read that seasonic help get xfx started with psu's. and theyre lower cost and good performers. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story3&reid=225

if you enter uk pc components into google itll come up with the best retailers in the uk. ive added most to my favourites.

and btw I paid about £650 for my rig. and it does well and gives me room to upgrade etc


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 4, 2013)

Thankyou guys for everything so far, i now understand PSU's thanks to Tokyo!  (BTW, calculated that with a 7850 running at maximum of 144w and CPU running at 125w, a 500w psu with 408w on the 12v gives me 139w of Safety Headroom!)

I'm now on that dubious and far-from-ever-over part of choosing a motherboard, and as mentioned in my edited first post, i have an idea of what's good and what's not, but for the purposes of NOT Overclocking and only a 1/10 chance of ever using CrossFire, what's my current idea like for the purposes of long-life, stability, safety and compatibility?


----------



## Kwod (Mar 5, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> I'm now on that dubious and far-from-ever-over part of choosing a motherboard, and as mentioned in my edited first post, i have an idea of what's good and what's not, but for the purposes of NOT Overclocking and only a 1/10 chance of ever using CrossFire, what's my current idea like for the purposes of long-life, stability, safety and compatibility?



I'm in the same boat as you Lemur....I'm a gamer that values stability over temporary max performance{but props to all you petrol heads}, so I also need a mobo and don't know what to get.

I suspect that something like one of these would be fine, but bare in mind I'd be using a xonar DG for sound as my onboard sound sux hard.....

http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=177&bid=2&sid=89527

ASROCK Z77 4....$134AUD

http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=177&bid=2&sid=89537

ASROCK Z77 6...$165


http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=177&bid=2&sid=89552

ASROCK Performance $150AUD

http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=177&bid=2&sid=89357

ASUS P877 V $193

http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=177&bid=2&sid=89372

ASUS PRO $225

*So how does a mid range gamer choose one of these?*

I also have to fit 2 PCI cards, ie, a sound card and a HDTV capture, so I need 2 free PCI slots.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 5, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> Thankyou guys for everything so far, i now understand PSU's thanks to Tokyo!  (BTW, calculated that with a 7850 running at maximum of 144w and CPU running at 125w, a 500w psu with 408w on the 12v gives me 139w of Safety Headroom!)
> 
> I'm now on that dubious and far-from-ever-over part of choosing a motherboard, and as mentioned in my edited first post, i have an idea of what's good and what's not, but for the purposes of NOT Overclocking and only a 1/10 chance of ever using CrossFire, what's my current idea like for the purposes of long-life, stability, safety and compatibility?



ASUS for motherboards is probably your best choice. Intel boards are excellent too if they still make them. Since ASUS is the dominant motherboard maker and sell the most boards, they will probably have a longer support cycle and there's a bigger community out there when you need help troubleshooting something. 

SLI/CF:
1. Great when it actually scales well
2. 2x the cost
3. Almost 2x power consumption
4. Known to be unreliable(drivers). You'll need to wait for drivers to catch up after game comes out.
5. Need to substantially upgrade PSU.
6. Stuttering still an issue
7. 2 GB+ 2GB = 2GB. data is VRAM is duplicated across all the cards.
8. Twice the failure, twice the space, twice the heat
9. Some poorly designed cards can blow heat directly onto each other.
10. Really high synthetic benchmark scores

Conclusion: Unless a 7950 or 670 does not meet your needs, there's no point in doing it.


----------



## Ravenas (Mar 5, 2013)

Look at my system specs. Everything I have is highly recommended at a great price. Enjoy.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 6, 2013)

Kwod said:


> http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=177&bid=2&sid=89357
> 
> ASUS P877 V $193
> 
> ...



Anyone know the diff between these 2?

Also, the Pro says it has a front USB 3 header, does this mean that I can plug the front USB 3 cable from the Antec 1100 directly to the mobo...?
Otherwise I'd need to buy an additional adapter as Antec only have it as a mobo input.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 6, 2013)

Kwod said:


> Anyone know the diff between these 2?
> 
> Also, the Pro says it has a front USB 3 header, does this mean that I can plug the front USB 3 cable from the Antec 1100 directly to the mobo...?
> Otherwise I'd need to buy an additional adapter as Antec only have it as a mobo input.



From what i've read, the difference between the terminologies would be External USB Headers mean they're routed out the I/O Shield at the BACK of your stack, whereas Front or Internal Headers means you can route the cables from within the case, meaning you don't have to have extra long cables to run from your front bezel through the case and out the back and then into the rear, instead you just run them from the Mobo to the front bezel internally  I could be wrong, but that's the information i've managed to gleam so far.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 6, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> *ASUS for motherboards is probably your best choice.* Intel boards are excellent too if they still make them. Since ASUS is the dominant motherboard maker and sell the most boards, they will probably have a longer support cycle and there's a bigger community out there when you need help troubleshooting something.
> 
> SLI/CF:
> 1. Great when it actually scales well
> ...



Thanks again Tokyo, from what i've been looking at so far the ASUS M5A97 Evo is around £80, whilst the ASRock 970 EXTREME 3 is around £70, and can be found sometimes cheaper too, now i've seen a lot of people using the ASRock with Phenom II's whilst the FX series seems to be used more with Gigabyte / MSI / ASUS motherboards, and from what i've read the FX-4170 isn't even a true quad-core! It's a dual with hyper-threading! And that's seriously putting me off of the FX series, which leads me down the road of the Phenom II X4 965, which by all accounts is a beautiful CPU straight off the bat, and i know it'll play modern games as a couple of my friends have them and run the games i wish to play easily.

As for the notion of XFire / SLi, don't worry about that, i won't be doing it 



Ravenas said:


> Look at my system specs. Everything I have is highly recommended at a great price. Enjoy.



Thanks Ravenas, although that MSI and other 990FX boards are a little too pricey for my liking despite working 10x better with the FX Series than the 970's, but i'm not actually sold on taking the newer CPU's from AMD over the Phenom II, considering the 4100 / 4300 and all between are physical dual-cores with HT to create a quad, instead of the Phenom's physical quad, i'm seriously considering taking the older CPU because it at the very least matches the performance in real terms of the new FX and is somewhat cheaper too.


----------



## Dent1 (Mar 6, 2013)

```

```



LemurHaloEcho said:


> considering the 4100 / 4300 and all between are physical dual-cores with HT to create a quad, instead of the Phenom's physical quad, i'm seriously considering taking the older CPU because it at the very least matches the performance in real terms of the new FX and is somewhat cheaper too.





LemurHaloEcho said:


> and from what i've read the FX-4170 isn't even a true quad-core! It's a dual with hyper-threading! And that's seriously putting me off of the FX series



No disrespect. But what have you been reading? 

The FX-4170 has four physical cores each with independant cache and shared cache.

Hyperthreading is only a technique, because it's virtual there is no real cores or cache. 

It's nothing like hyperthreading.

Granted prior to FX realease, AMD was trying to market it's four REAL cores as a solution to Intels FAKE cores but later back tracked.



LemurHaloEcho said:


> which leads me down the road of the Phenom II X4 965, which by all accounts is a beautiful CPU straight off the bat



BTW how much is the Phenom II X4 965 these days? You can pick up an FX-6300 Hexacore is only £25-35 more.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Mar 6, 2013)

Dent1 said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Uhhh, Phenom II X4 965 is between £82 and £84 i think, new, from eBay (no other sources of them found as of yet).

To be honest with you, i can't remember where i read it, it was on an overclocking forum from the UK, of that i'm fairly sure.

This is the main problem i'm having, sourcing reliable information and attempting to make decisions off my own back, but if the info i'm finding on my own isn't good, then i'm concerned over making a large mistake such as buying something and finding out i could've gotten something FAR better for the same price / less OR buying the complete and utter wrong item alltogether, hence why i'm here.

I've been watching videos on YouTube aswell, comparing the PII X4 vs the FX4100 and 4170, and as far as i can tell the 4170 consumes more power under load than the Phenom, yet only outperforms it by a mild margin, and the PII still matches the 4100 / beats it in some cases, so i'm trying hard to make an informed and proper decision between CPU's based on it's ability to perform in gaming and general tasking, and it's maximum power under load (to help me choose a sufficient PSU).

In all honesty i suspect the newer CPU to be the better choice for length of service, and power efficiency, but i'm not SURE, and that's why i'm asking for info from those that've done it before me


----------



## d1nky (Mar 6, 2013)

why buy the four core phenom, when you can purchase a six core phenom or fx for a margin extra. Best to shop around, i once saw an 8150 for £105. wish i bought it now!

someone suggested this site to me; http://uk.hardware.info/


----------



## Dent1 (Mar 7, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> I've been watching videos on YouTube aswell, comparing the PII X4 vs the FX4100 and 4170
> , and as far as i can tell the 4170 consumes more power under load than the Phenom, yet only outperforms it by a mild margin, and the PII still matches the 4100 / beats it in some cases, so i'm trying hard to make an informed and proper decision between CPU's based on it's ability to perform in gaming and general tasking, and it's maximum power under load (to help me choose a sufficient PSU).



Stop  relying on YouTube and read reviews from Tom Hardware, Tech Power Up, Guru of 3D etc.

The FX is always a better choice for overclocking, on air Phenom tops out at around 3.8 - 4.2GHz whereas the FX can hit anywhere from 4.5 - 5GHz.

Also why are you looking at the FX4100 anyways, it's based on the older Bulldozer architecture. If you want quad core you should be looking the FX4300 based on the newer Piledriver architecture.  




LemurHaloEcho said:


> Uhhh, Phenom II X4 965 is between £82 and £84 i think, new, from eBay (no other sources of them found as of yet).



Makes no sense, £20 more gets you a brand new Piledriver FX 6300 X6. 

AMD FX-6300 3.5GHz Socket AM3+ 14MB Cache Retail B...


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 7, 2013)

LemurHaloEcho said:


> Uhhh, Phenom II X4 965 is between £82 and £84 i think, new, from eBay (no other sources of them found as of yet).
> 
> To be honest with you, i can't remember where i read it, it was on an overclocking forum from the UK, of that i'm fairly sure.
> 
> ...



FX 4000s series has 2 modules. The new Trinity APUs also use these modules.
each module has 2 integer and 1 floating point processor. It also shares the L2 cache.
The whole chip shares L3 caches.

Intel has hyperthreading and that is mostly software based. AMD is mostly physical cores but still rely on OS scheduler to be used correctly.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/FX8150/2.html

Intel chips are usually more power efficient since they have a superior process node and technology. They are at least 1 year ahead of everyone in the world when it comes to chip manufacturing. IMO, the lead is more like 1.5-2 years because AMD is still on 32nm and Intel has been on 22nm for a while now.

There are review articles here at techpowerup.com that explains it. You can also visit anandtech.com, techreport.com, etc... There's a ton of sites that will pop up if you search "AMD FX 8350 review"
There's only a few minor tweaks between the 4/6/81xxx and 4/6/83xxx series. 

For gaming, I would go at least 6300 series or 8000 series. If you're on a budget and absolutely cannot afford the FX 6/8xxx then get the new A10 or A8 APU. They use the same pile driver module as the FX 4170. 

If you plan on keeping your CPU for 3 years without upgrading then go for i5 2xxx or 3xxx. Even a used one will be fine. CPUs seems to be one of the most durable parts unless you're  overvolting the snot out of it. 

I feel bad for Euro people. Here, I can buy an i5 3570k + Asus z77 board for ~$200
I can also get a FX 8320 + board + 212 cooler for ~200.


----------



## d1nky (Mar 7, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> I feel bad for Euro people. Here, I can buy an i5 3570k   Asus z77 board for ~$200
> I can also get a FX 8320   board   212 cooler for ~200.



$200?? in britain we pay £200+ = $300+
 an 8320 averages £140 ($210)


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

This is what I got....

i3570+CM 212 HSF
16 gig 1600 ram
P8Z77 V ASUS
Samsung 840 250 gig SSD
Antec 1100 gaming case.
Antec 650w Platnium plus PSU
Saphire Vapour X 7950 hahahhahaaa

Now I gotta build it!


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 11, 2013)

Where's your HDD?
If you all you have is 250 GB then you will notice a storage problem very soon. I would always leave an SSD at least 30% empty. So you'll probably end up with ~240 GB after formatting and subtract 72 GB. You'll end up with roughly 168GB to use. 

Looking through my steam library, I don't see any games under 10 GB and most being around 15-30GB overall. I have 10 games that took up about 170 GB. 
So windows + 10 games + Office + browsers/small apps/pics/video/etc... I am already over 300 GB. Just giving you a heads up on what to anticipate.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> Where's your HDD?
> .



What I want is one 4t internal, but they're way too hexy atm.
I've got quite a bit of free space on my externals though, so they'll have to act as my slaves


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 11, 2013)

Kwod said:


> What I want is one 4t internal, but they're way too hexy atm.
> I've got quite a bit of free space on my externals though, so they'll have to act as my slaves



haha I wouldn't count on 4TB to be affordable any time soon. Economically speaking, supply is low and demand is low. Their real demand is in servers. Consumers are content at the 2 TB range at the moment. With the movement towards mobile devices and cloud storage, there is little demand for large consumer drives. 

I think you will see a 4TB drives becoming affordable after 4HD is the new standard.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> I think you will see a 4TB drives becoming affordable after 4HD is the new standard.



Then I'll have to bite the bullet and buy one at some point, I also want a 4t external so I can rid myself of all the annoying 2t hanging around my PC

Anyway, I'm typing this on my new PC, but just started with intel GPU{saphire not installed yet}
CPU temps are all less than 30c using the CM 212.
I got 195gig left on Samsung 840.

Now the exciting process of reinstalling a bunch of stuff{not!!}


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 11, 2013)

Don't worry. Installing everything on your new processor and SSD should be a breeze. At least it was for me 

I'm jelly of your 840. I saw one for $150 last week. I really wanted to buy it but I seriously don't need a 3rd HD. I think when 500 GB SSD, I will pick up 2 and have it replace my velociraptor. Or maybe velociraptor will have a hybrid drive by then.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

Damn, some crazy speed back here, over a 100 windows updates took seconds as a reboot!!!!


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> Don't worry. Installing everything on your new processor and SSD should be a breeze. At least it was for me
> 
> I'm jelly of your 840. I saw one for $150 last week. I really wanted to buy it but I seriously don't need a 3rd HD. I think when 500 GB SSD, I will pick up 2 and have it replace my velociraptor. Or maybe velociraptor will have a hybrid drive by then.



Oh yes, 240/250g suck for size, but if I'm going for 500gig I want the* pro* model and that's like $540.

http://www.umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew.phtml?id=10&id2=159&bid=2&sid=99788

heh, look at this 800 gig SSD, I should've ponied up for it.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 11, 2013)

Now you will have new problems. If you have anything set to auto login, it may give you log in fail errors. Your windows will load faster than your wifi/lan can connect so apps throws these errors left and right. It pisses me off everyday enough that I exclude them all from my start up.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> Now you will have new problems.



I tried to count how long it took to install Malwarebytes, and granted it's not a huge program, but I couldn't even count to one second, it was done!!
Btw, what's the best codec pack to use for W7 64b....?{Home premium}


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 11, 2013)

I used VLC and that's it. I do mostly streaming so I don't really get into players that much. I'm also converted to W8 pro now.

Why aren't you using W7 ultimate?


----------



## Kwod (Mar 11, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> I used VLC and that's it. I do mostly streaming so I don't really get into players that much. I'm also converted to W8 pro now.
> 
> Why aren't you using W7 ultimate?



I had a OEM of W7 64 HP from my 2010 update.
I also like VLC, it seems to have some excellent default settings for most stuff.
Oddly enough, I can get youtube to play with IE8/9, but not with Chrome......weird


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 11, 2013)

youtube should play with chrome. I think youtube uses flash so update that.
I don't have any players right now besides windows media player on my computer after W8 upgrade or "downgrade". Youtube and chrome behaves perfectly for me.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 12, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> youtube should play with chrome. I think youtube uses flash so update that.
> .




I got 7.6 on my windows performance index, with the lowest score being the CPU at 7.6, but everything else was 7.9{except ram at 7.8}.

I think my old system was 5.1, lol.

Actually, we have nearly the same system, other than GPU.

*EDIT*: installing dedicated GPU fixed it.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 12, 2013)

Your system is a bit faster than mine. I just hate how you guys get robbed in Aussie land when it comes to parts. Europe too but probably not as bad.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 12, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> Your system is a bit faster than mine. I just hate how you guys get robbed in Aussie land when it comes to parts. Europe too but probably not as bad.



Maybe, but gone are the days of $6000 PC's that slowed to a crawl in 2yrs.
I upgraded my 2008 system in 2011, but it blew up a few weeks ago, so I'm back with a proper upgrade

I was just playing a PC demo....CPU's didn't get above 44c and GPU barely got above 50c in 24c room temps, so can't imagine I'll have to worry about cooling even in the height of summer{30-35c}.

What a joke Intel's IGPU was....HD4000 on the K model Ivy's might be better, but nothing beats a dedicated GPU.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 12, 2013)

I have i7 with the HD4000 + 660gtx combo on my laptop. It's great for accelerating web pages(especially flash) and that's where it ends. But I was fortunate enough to be able to switch to the 660gtx when I need it. I tried gaming on the HD4k for giggles and it was hopeless. 

The difference in battery makes the hd4k worth it on laptop though. Although AMD's trinity does better. Web browsing with HD4k gets me 4-5 hours. The same tasks with 660gtx gets me 2.5 hrs. With gaming, the difference was only about 15 mins. I would've bought the AMD A10 but those laptops never come with SSD and backlit keyboards.


----------



## Kwod (Mar 12, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> I tried gaming on the HD4k for giggles and it was hopeless.



I think laptops and gaming are a bad combo in general
I'm going to install Crysis1 now and see what happens, lol.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 13, 2013)

My laptop does well. I can play most games at very respectable frames. I just hate the keyboard and the small screen.......and the price


----------



## Kwod (Mar 13, 2013)

Crysis maxed 8xaa is butter smooth, but so is F1 2012 at 110fps@1200p
This new system is so fast at times it's not funny, especially loading games.

I used to think 30fps was acceptable, but I now think the magic no of 60fps is a much better experience.

I must've had a huge bottleneck with either my old CPU or DDR2 ram, maybe both.


----------



## tokyoduong (Mar 14, 2013)

Turn Vsync on or caps. Some games push your system to the max and causes crashes and stuttering. SC2 used to do that to me along with another game(i forgot). As soon as I vsync at 60, the crashes and random stuttering went away.
The other bonus is you don't burn out your components as fast. You will notice less screen tearing when you turn fast in fps too.


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Jun 22, 2013)

Hey again guys! It's been a while now, and i've finally built my new machine and it's running perfectly!  I'm able to play DayZ at 60+ FPS, StarCraft 2 at 100+ FPS, as well as FarCry 3: Blood Dragon (got free with my card  ) at 60+ FPS. Installs take moments rather than hours, and despite running at all stock / auto settings, i've yet to find something that slows me down! :O

So people, here's what i went with in the end; (Thanks to you all for such great, patient and understanding advice!)

CPU: AMD FX-6300
Mobo: ASUS M5A99X EVO R2.0
CPU Cooler: CM Hyper 212 EVO
RAM: Patriot Viper 3 "Venom Red" 1600mhz - 2 x 4GB
GPU: Sapphire Radeon HD7850 1GB Dual-X
PSU: Corsair CX600M
SSD: 64GB Crucial M4
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 7200rpm
Case: Corsair Carbide 300R Windowed (BARGAIN ALERT - £53!)

All in, delivered, for £612 with postage.

Got Windows 7 Home Premium from my dad for free, so i'm on a 64-bit OS too! Life is great gentlemen, and i'd happily recommend any of these parts to you all 

*EDIT* And for those interested, using HWMonitor it displays both my CPU and Motherboard temps, under load the CPU doesn't get above 42c on a hot day, and without using my custom fan profile on Sapphire TRiXX my 7850 doesn't get above 57c on a hot day! If i use the fan profile i get it down to 51c under full load  

Idle temps after 10 mins in desktop for CPU is 27c to 29c, GPU is 29 to 31c, so i'm right in the sweet-spot for all my temps, this case has great airflow even with just stock fans, but beware, if you're going for this case in the future, buy some magnetic dust filters for the roof of it, just allows dust to fall on in unfortunately!


----------



## Norton (Jun 22, 2013)

Nice build!  

Time to update your system specs!!!

<<<<


----------



## LemurHaloEcho (Jun 23, 2013)

System Specs updated, life is good!  Thanks buddy!


----------

