# Metro Exodus Developer Discusses Boycott of the PC Platform for Sequels over Steam Review Bombing



## VSG (Feb 3, 2019)

Update 2: February 5th, 2019: A post on TwitLonger from the official @MetroVideoGame handle has looked to bring a more positive outlook to this whole scenario, in an attempt to bridge the gap between a lone developer's sentiment and the entire 4A Games studio. The post follows:



> The recent decision to move Metro Exodus from Steam to the Epic Game Store was made by Koch Media / Deep Silver alone.
> 
> The recent comments made by a member of the 4A Games development team do not reflect Deep Silver's or 4A Games' view on the future of the franchise. They do reflect the hurt and disappointment of a passionate individual who has seen what was previously nothing but positive goodwill towards his work turn to controversy due to a business decision he had no control over. We respectfully ask that any and all valid feedback over this decision is directed at Koch Media / Deep Silver, and not the developers at 4A Games.
> 
> The future release strategy of the Metro series lies with Koch Media / Deep Silver. Our decision to partner with Epic Games was based on the goal of investing in the future of the series and our development partner at 4A Games. We have every intention of continuing this franchise, and a PC version will always be at the heart of our plans.





The entire handling of this issue has seen wrong turns of hand on all parts involved, the way this particular editor sees it (my, Ravenlord's, sole opinion and not TPU's, so as to avoid a Metro-style situation here), whether it be Valve, 4A Games, the lone developer who made the initial comments, and yes, the particular users in the Metro community that reacted too passionately, inflamming what was already a sticky situation. I, for one, will never see the justice in extrapolating one "wrong" move as a reason for bringing down either the trust or confidence in a whole team of people working hard to bring their creative vision to life. But I suppose gaming is like a relationship, in a way. You can read the original story below.

The whole Metro Exodus saga has been getting uglier as we get closer to launch date. We had reported earlier this very week how Metro Exodus had jumped over to the Epic Games Store for a timed exclusive through February 2020, with Valve and THQ Nordic putting out statements on this move. The move was clearly an unpopular one, and arguably for valid reasons too, but this then led to the mob turning against Metro 2033 and Metro: Last Light by leaving an extreme number of negative reviews on the respective Steam store pages.




 

 




We do not agree with this behavior, but neither do we condone what happened next. A user by the handle scynet on the Russian Gameinator forums claimed to be one of the developers on the Metro game franchise, and expressed disappointment, and even anger at the review bombing ongoing. Perhaps emotions took over, when he then effectively threatened that the Metro series would not come to the PC platform again, and be a console exclusive, should this behavior continue and also if PC gamers in turn decide to not buy Metro Exodus as a result of the move from Steam to the Epic Games Store. We will note here that (a) the identity of said person has not been confirmed to be an actual developer for the game, and (b) such decisions are usually in the publisher hands. Regardless, both parties are not showing their best here, and hopefully cooler heads will prevail soon.

[Update: Feb 3, 2019: TechPowerUp user birdie has provided what appears to be the most accurate translation at this time, which can be seen past the break.]

An English translation by a native Russian (TechPowerUp user birdie) is seen below.



> I've watched the shit storm that gave me contradicting impressions. On the one hand, Steam withdrawal was dubious, no one before us has done this so abruptly (as far as I know). This is new and and it could have caused resentment. And also this move makes it necessary to install the Epic launcher, so it could have inconvenienced certain gamers, and caused resentment.
> 
> On the other hand a reaction of the certain category of players ("torrents" only and likewise [he meant those who pirate games]) is hardly adequate. I've got the impression that people didn't really want to play and they have been waiting for a reason to pour out bile. It turns out that we (the developers) have toiled over for years trying to create something extraordinary but a certain category of players believes that our work isn't worth two minutes of installing a new game launcher. Naturally, it's their life and right, but why do they care about Metro at all? Obviously, they are not interested. I can only say that they've never been our players, they are not interested in our work, and as a result, for example, I'm not interested in their opinion. What's the point of me (and not only me) listening to their opinion?
> 
> ...



This does not seem as feverous as initial translations make it out to be, however the underlying tones are still applicable to the same bottom line. We also are more confident now that the original poster is a verified employee of 4A Games, and likely a developer on Metro Exodus as well. He/she is no doubt passionate about the work put in to the game, and ideally recognizes that the deeds (however undeserving the review bombing of past games may be) of some members of the PC gaming community does not speak for everyone. At the same time, this does not mean that 4A Games/Koch Media/THQ Nordic/Epic Games Store are all blameless in this debacle either, just that here too the work of few is affecting the rest adversely.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## SystemMechanic (Feb 3, 2019)

I will be staying away from this Dev and Publisher. No way to treat your fans. MAy be put it back on Steam store if you dont want ppl protesting, which is only be done by not buying it or review bombing.


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## natr0n (Feb 3, 2019)

If you were a dev you would want to make the most profit possible to insure you will still have a studio for new games.

To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.

People love to slander others for any reason.

The mentality of this generation is so corrupted it is unfathomable.


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## SystemMechanic (Feb 3, 2019)

@natr0
Lol u mean the publisher is so corrupted that they shill for EPIC and forget about what made them so popular in the first place ?

Let me tell u, EPIC games and EPIC launcher is a Joke. Poor Customer support or sometimes 0 support, account security breaches, got banned ? enjoy your entire account getting locked.


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## phanbuey (Feb 3, 2019)

natr0n said:


> If you were a dev you would want to make the most profit possible to insure you will still have a studio for new games.
> 
> To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.
> 
> ...



It's not about the platform -- it's about exclusivity.  The whole " you can ONLY buy it here" that EA, EPIC and others are trying to push.

Just because a Chinese company threw some money at these guys now the gamers who bought it from steam HAVE to download epic game launcher and HAVE to use the EPIC launcher which already got hacked twice.

Enjoy having that running on your computer.

Honestly if they want to publish their FPS for console only, good luck to them.  I'm not buying this game until it comes to Steam.


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## oxidized (Feb 3, 2019)

I'm still hoping all this is some kind of prank, that guy isn't actually a 4A games dev, or if he is he'll be removed or something, hopefully 4A comes out with an explanatory statement and apologies, otherwise they'll greatly suffer in terms of sell (pretty fairly i'd say). If the Epic store exclusivity wasn't enough this is like the coup de grace for the sells on PC.


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## TesterAnon (Feb 3, 2019)

natr0n said:


> If you were a dev you would want to make the most profit possible to insure you will still have a studio for new games.
> 
> To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.
> 
> ...



Most profit possible would be releasing it in multiple stores, not removing it from one store to another just because someone gave you money.
Consumers end getting fucked in the end by this move, so its normal to expect people to be mad about this.

Was it so hard to release it in GOG, Steam, Epic, etc at the same time? No.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> Just because a Chinese company threw some money at these guys now the gamers who bought it from steam HAVE to download epic game launcher and HAVE to use the EPIC launcher which already got hacked twice.


Wait, do we know that those who preordered it on Steam have to run it from Steam through Epic Launcher, much like many Ubi games do, or are you guessing?


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## phanbuey (Feb 3, 2019)

oxidized said:


> I'm still hoping all this is some kind of prank, that guy isn't actually a 4A games dev, or if he is he'll be removed or something, hopefully 4A comes out with an explanatory statement and apologies, otherwise they'll greatly suffer in terms of sell (pretty fair). If the Epic store exclusivity wasn't enough this is like the coup de grace for the sells on PC.



I read what he was saying; it's really not that bad.



rtwjunkie said:


> Wait, do we know that those who preordered it on Steam have to run it from Steam through Epic Launcher, much like many Ubi games do, or are you guessing?


They've said it - part of the reason everyone is so pissed off.  They thought they would be getting steam keys, but it's epic store keys.  Also the humble store is using epic keys.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I read what he was saying; it's really not that bad.
> 
> 
> They've said it - part of the reason everyone is so pissed off.  They thought they would be getting steam keys, but it's epic store keys.  Also the humble store is using epic keys.


Well of course Humble would be. The preorder period on Steam closed last week on the day the move was announced.  So the Humble sales now are not evidence of that.  

As big a news item as this has been, you would think that would have been a big topic here right after the anger over the move to Epic. But you are literally the first one I have heard say that the Steam keys are for Epic launcher.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

That isn't what this article says: https://www.techpowerup.com/251947/...steam-for-epic-games-store-as-timed-exclusive, so some one is wrong or has their panties in a bunch.

Edit: Forgot the quote



phanbuey said:


> They've said it - part of the reason everyone is so pissed off. They thought they would be getting steam keys, but it's epic store keys. Also the humble store is using epic keys



Edit 2:



oxidized said:


> I'm still hoping all this is some kind of prank, that guy isn't actually a 4A games dev, or if he is he'll be removed or something



Also, why do you want him (or her) removed?  For calling out schmucks for being schmucks?  Much like customers, fans aren't always right.  At this time, neither side are making good choices but they are both getting what they deserve.

WTH, is going on with quotes


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## oxidized (Feb 3, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I read what he was saying; it's really not that bad.



Not that bad you say huh? Alright then.



moproblems99 said:


> Also, why do you want him (or her) removed?  For calling out schmucks for being schmucks?  Much like customers, fans aren't always right.  At this time, neither side are making good choices but they are both getting what they deserve.



I don't WANT him removed, i think it's right he'd be removed, because he's full of sht and he just took a fat sht on the entire PC community, there's nothing really right about what he said honestly, piracy was always there, and will always be there, using that as excuse instead of facing the real reasons of this shtstorm is very stupid and makes him (or the entire team) look like amateurs, and not professional. And the whole thing sounds like a threat "If you don't like the decisions we recently took, you either swallow it, or don't buy the game, and if you don't buy the game we won't make it for PC next time".


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 3, 2019)

Looks like they skipped the step of throwing the toys out of the pram and decided to throw the pram instead.


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## Th3pwn3r (Feb 3, 2019)

I wasn't going to buy the game but now I probably won't buy anything from them at all if this is true.


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## phanbuey (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Well of course Humble would be. The preorder period on Steam closed last week on the day the move was announced.  So the Humble sales now are not evidence of that.
> 
> As big a news item as this has been, you would think that would have been a big topic here right after the anger over the move to Epic. But you are literally the first one I have heard say that the Steam keys are for Epic launcher.



Im looking for the original source - i've read like 9 articles about this and one of them mentioned that they are replacing all physical and steam keys...


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## HimymCZe (Feb 3, 2019)

our customers show dislike of our methods....
better switch to censored site with no negative feedback, then ...
10/10 *slow clap*


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## XiGMAKiD (Feb 3, 2019)

People choose to throwing tantrum and expect something good coming out from it


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## btarunr (Feb 3, 2019)

A console-exclusive AAA FPS?


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 3, 2019)

I zoomed in twice before it registered that I can't read russian.


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## VSG (Feb 3, 2019)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> I zoomed in twice before it registered that I can't read russian.



Click on the source link to then use your preferred choice of translation. I retained the original Russian post as a screenshot because no online translator is perfect.


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## Arumio (Feb 3, 2019)

Well, crappy move there 4A, if you decided to make trilogy so please make sure to publish your shit on release date on those platforms where you initially published it. It's dirty to publish 2/3 on one platform and than BOOM and last one (temporary exclusive) 1/3 on another.


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## cdawall (Feb 3, 2019)

If all of the companies producing games could stop being dumb that would be great.

As a whole I am tired of having to install everyone and their brothers launcher. If everyone wants their own launcher go back another step and let me just launch the game. Skip the launcher. Why there has to be another layer of frivolous software on my pc I don't understand.

If everyone thinks threatening to drop PC or whatever is the best choice for them, then regardless of how good the game is I would rather play EA garbage than deal with a dev that thinks he can tell me how to live my life.

Also stop ruining things I enjoy.

Thanks, in advance for ignoring what people actually want.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

Let’s everyone take a step back and realize nothing has advanced beyond what we already knew prior to today.  We know after last week’s announcement that no more Steam preorders would be available, and the sales from that point forward are on Epic.  We know that THQ and Steam both said that all Steam preorders would be honored and totally supported in the Steam community and platform.

What we don’t know for sure is if this statement was by the dev company, or by a loose cannon employee, or just someone spouting off.  We also don’t know, as one of our members asserted here, that any Steam keys sold must go through the Epic launcher.

So let’s relax until we know facts.


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## Patriot (Feb 3, 2019)

Do it, You think you are boycotting us.... we are boycotting you.  This game will probably be cracked in record time.


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## MrGenius (Feb 3, 2019)

Some people's kids. That's all I have to say...


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

well, anyone on the Internet can claim themselves as "game developers" or "game publishers" are usually not really trustworthy... also, I do not condone review bombing just because Deep Silver/THQ Nordic says they are moving to Epic Games storefront for the slightly higher profit margin over Steam. Let them think it's a good marketing move when the majority of Epic Games userbase are kids who plays Fortnite.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Feb 3, 2019)

What better way to boost interest in Epic games launcher. "Metro, only on Epic".

 Its an advertising gimmick gone sour.

Because a few fanbois refuse to change underwear or move out of mom's basement while refusing to install another launcher, its lame excuse for a die hard gamer.

As a Gamer, I think at this point at this stage of game distribution, its a dumb move for the game devs but yet a smart move for the Epic launcher.  I remember games that are only this console or that one, all it does is hurt the developers and benefit the console its playable on.

In the end is about profitability.

these negative review posts could be seen as gamers hurting themselves, that action could prevent further development of this and other games currently in the works.


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## dj-electric (Feb 3, 2019)

I wouldn't mind Metro being only on console. This way they will not make enough money and have to quit. Perfect.


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## Legacy-ZA (Feb 3, 2019)

The Deep Silver developers are essentially giving the middle finger to their fans by removing a choice on which client their fans prefer. If they had any respect for their fans, they could have made their case and asked:

"Fans of the Metro series, as you may know, Valve takes a larger cut of our profit, we strive to make the best games possible, we understand that there are fans that for varies reasons might not be able to support us on another platform but we would truly appreciate your support by using and buying our game on the Epic Games store, this is so that we will be able to continue making great games for you now and in the future."

Instead Deep Silver, you removed the choice completely, making it exclusive to one store instead of selling it on multiple stores, like GoG and Steam. As soon as you make something exclusive to one platform there is no competition and your remove a choice from the fans. Now you cry "foul" for the push-back, how damn childish. Deep Silver; your logic is flawed, if you make it exclusive to consoles only, YOU ARE STILL BEING EXCLUSIVE and you will lose a whole market, thus you lose more PROFIT, isn't that what you are complaining about like a little tantrum throwing child not getting his ice-cream?

I tell you what Deep Silver; if you buy me a new PC with at least 32GB-64GB of RAM, with a nice 12-16 Core Processor and a nice big monitor and resolution to fit more crap in, oh dear, new monitor, bigger resolution, need a new graphics card now too to keep the framerate above 100, a nice RTX2080 will do too, only then would I be happy to load as many game clients on my machine as you want. Deal? No? Then kindly hold your tongue.

Deep Silver, you weren't thinking of your fans when you made this decision, this is what you don't seem to get.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

Deep Silver are mere publishers. They have the final say along with THQ Nordic to make last minute changes while 4A Games can't say anything coz they're being held with their hands tied to their backs. The whole "Epic gives higher profit revenue" makes me sick coz they're impressing stupid investors over the fanbase who go out of their way spending fortunes on collectibles & pre-order exclusive contents. They (Deep Silver/THQ) shouldn't have made this move. that small deviation of getting extra profit per game sales is plain idiotic. Like the publisher's name, those guys are digging deeper graves when no one is giving them money or to Epic/Tencent.


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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Talk about bite the hand that feeds you! I purchased AlLL of them I didn’t get the deals on the remasters either so yeah I’ve supported them. First this Epic nonsense and now some Dev has the gaul to call us pirates and insignificant. .. yeah was gonna be a tough sale to begin with now it’s money I’ll be very reluctant to part with.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

while I don't recommend supporting piracy but it teaches us a few things; 1. if the game is really bad & has always-online feature, the game won't even be pirated. 2. not everyone is rich or even gives a damn when the game gets old. Let's say "copied" games are like demos so that players can weigh their opinions with their wallet. 3. pirates actually spend their own money in purchasing the base games + DLCs so one doesn't need to waste theirs & say the game is crap. Lastly, if there is a bad enough game that gets pirated, even with DLCs, the amount of seeders will tell you everything. Metro Exodus is going to be the most heavily pirated game in a few weeks time as a big "f*** you" to Deep Silver.


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## NC37 (Feb 3, 2019)

lol, all this is going to do is make them do it more. Frankly, don't care. The Metro devs burned the bridges to my wallet the moment they wanted me to pay money for a new version of what I already own and barely changed anything about it. Paid patch update...they can rot.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

again, this action is not 4A Games' decision. It was Deep Silver/THQ who was behind all this "changes". So blame it on those publishers with a board filled with lobbyists & rotten-minded investors who give zero damn about customer base & fanbase. All that for "higher profit revenue per sale" BS that Epic/Tencent has been doing.


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## arduum (Feb 3, 2019)

"I was watching the excitement. Impression is dual..."
https://www.gameru.net/forum/index....258cb&showtopic=71769&view=findpost&p=1648737


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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> again, this action is not 4A Games' decision. It was Deep Silver/THQ who was behind all this "changes". So blame it on those publishers with a board filled with lobbyists & rotten-minded investors who give zero damn about customer base & fanbase. All that for "higher profit revenue per sale" BS that Epic/Tencent has been doing.


Yet we all know where 90% of that Epic revenue is coming from and Metro moving to “an empty storefront” certainly isn’t going to help their sales targets.   It wouldn’t surprise me if the current Steam sales revenue will beat out Epics .


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

Yep. Sure, Steam only gives 70-odd percent revenue per sale, but that alone will be outweighed by the fanbase who owns 2 previous Metro games in their library. If I were the publisher, I don't mind putting it on Steam storefront. Impressing your customer base is a safer bet & not rely heavily on those stupid but super rich investors who has no interest in making long-term profit but only wants short-term profit before running away with the money if they hear that your profit target is nowhere near their "estimated target"... That'll be an even bigger blow to the company's outlook IMO.


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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> Yep. Sure, Steam only gives 70-odd percent revenue per sale, but that alone will be outweighed by the fanbase who owns 2 previous Metro games in their library. If I were the publisher, I don't mind putting it on Steam storefront. Impressing your customer base is a safer bet & not rely heavily on those stupid but super rich investors who has no interest in making long-term profit but only wants short-term profit before running away with the money if they hear that your profit target is nowhere as their expectations.


Exactly I mean if you’re not playing Fortnite chances are you don’t even know about the Epic Launcher.  I only have it because some nice Russian chap tried to make an account spoofing my email so I took it back and have grabbed the free games they’ve offered but not actually played or installed  in fact...The big warning bells for me was. The other day when I actually checked to see if it even had a friends list. Well yeah it wanted to mine my Steam and Facebook for friends....GTFOH!!


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## Patriot (Feb 3, 2019)

Epic also features account breaches and selling your information through tencent...

Also, reading 15 pages on that forum with handy translate english... Very much a verified account and 4a Dev.
That said, he is a dev, not a representative... he is expressing his feelings being hurt as people attack his work over publisher actions.
He is also being stupid and not understanding the situation in entirety.... people boycotting epic is not the same as people hating your game... sucks that devs are caught in the crossfire, but 4a should have some sway with the publisher, if not, write better contracts.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

I have an Epic account, but there's nothing much for them to mine anyways... on top of uninstalling their crappy client out of my PC coz I'm not really a fan of installing more than 3 clients.


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## kastriot (Feb 3, 2019)

If Gabe fatso ale lowers fees @12% like epic does maybe those problems wouldn't happen but again greed, greed never changes..


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

I doubt Lord Gaben would increase the revenue per sale or reduce the royalty fees when he knows that the userbase of Steam is in the billions & still gets other forms of profit from marketplace tradings, paying early access entry pass etc. Another thing that he won't do is smooching up with investors that has unrealistic profit margins & short deadlines. If Steam were to do that on top of still being a paid service, it wouldn't even last long.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

Arumio said:


> Well, crappy move there 4A, if you decided to make trilogy so please make sure to publish your shit on release date on those platforms where you initially published it. It's dirty to publish 2/3 on one platform and than BOOM and last one (temporary exclusive) 1/3 on another.



*AHEM* Destiny?

Didn't hear much like this about that... The arguments being made since the announcement, about EPIC store are 50% FUD and the other half is overinflated nonsense. Like yours. There is zero reflection on what countless other franchises have done over the years. There is lots of content that doesn't appear on Steam.

People are way too emotional over this and I am getting the impression this whole news article is one big troll attempt - a successful one at that. All you adults have your panties in a bunch over a game release on a different storefront than you're used to, and now some other noname on the web with a 4A logo next to his name is mad because everyone else is mad.

Get a life. Please. And that goes for everyone involved, including the people here.

If you're not buying it, then don't. Sales will determine what people really think, not some noise on the web. Thank you for participating. I know I will, this is still one of the most highly anticipated titles of 2019, the store selling it won't change that and being self-imposed 'locked' to a Steam platform is retarded - about as retarded as a console exclusive  See what I did there?



Patriot said:


> Do it, You think you are boycotting us.... we are boycotting you.  This game will probably be cracked in record time.



'Us'? If you think this is a community effort in any way, you're completely mistaken. Some fiery Reddit posts don't have that effect. There is no community here. Steam is no community. Its a storefront, and we're talking about a vocal minority here. The vast majority will just suck it up, or buy later, or wait for a sale. Again: its just a store. The reasons to care about this really aren't there. Games survive just fine without being on Steam (look at Uplay, Origin, Bnet, etc etc etc).

As for being cracked, that hasn't got anything to do with the choice of Store, and is the biggest hypocrisy of a countermeasure you can imagine.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

wish everyone is being moderate... But when you see a successful game that has left its mark on a popular storefront suddenly moved to another storefront at the last minute & not giving a detailed apology but a bland, scripted PR crap, of course everyone goes mad. I don't blame those who got mad coz they deserved to be one. Imagine this; if your favourite restaurant that has opened for decades suddenly have a change in ownership coz the previous owner wants to "move on" & suddenly that reputable name has gone to the way of a dodo. Would you be mad or not?


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> wish everyone is being moderate... But when you see a successful game that has left its mark on a popular storefront suddenly moved to another storefront at the last minute & not giving a detailed apology but a bland, scripted PR crap, of course everyone goes mad. I don't blame those who got mad coz they deserved to be one. Imagine this; if your favourite restaurant that has opened for decades suddenly have a change in ownership coz the previous owner wants to "move on" & suddenly that reputable name has gone to the way of a dodo. Would you be mad or not?



Yes, and I would once again have a choice of going elsewhere or seeing what the new owner made of it. That is the power you have as a consumer. That is what I'm saying, as well. If you're not buying, then don't! It is those sales numbers that will send the _real message_. I am actually convinced the majority will just suck it up anyway and there is little reason not to. You're not _really _being harmed.

Flinging nonsense around the web of which the better half isn't even true, is not such a message. That is just throwing a tantrum like a 10 year old. Case in point, this topic, with adults tossing about -1's like nobody's business. My oh my. It'd be funny if it wasn't so very sad.

People, the _platform here_... is the *PC*. Not Steam. It never really changed. Steam and/or Epic is just another layer that you need to click through.



DeathtoGnomes said:


> What better way to boost interest in Epic games launcher. "Metro, only on Epic".
> 
> Its an advertising gimmick gone sour.
> 
> ...



Hey, somebody gets it, at least.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Feb 3, 2019)




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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Yes, and I would once again have a choice of going elsewhere or seeing what the new owner made of it. That is the power you have as a consumer. That is what I'm saying, as well. If you're not buying, then don't! It is those sales numbers that will send the _real message_. I am actually convinced the majority will just suck it up anyway and there is little reason not to. You're not _really _being harmed.
> 
> Flinging nonsense around the web of which the better half isn't even true, is not such a message. That is just throwing a tantrum like a 10 year old. Case in point, this topic, with adults tossing about -1's like nobody's business. My oh my. It'd be funny if it wasn't so very sad.
> 
> ...


Because supporting this kind of behaviour is good? 4A have already shot themselves in the foot just by switching to a sub par platform that’s genuine sole usage is to launch Fortnite. It really doesn’t offer much more than that.  Steam has a user base in the Billions, Epic can’t and never will compete with that no matter how many games they try to poach from Steam and yes that’s exactly what they did was poaching. 
You casually pass it off as “another layer” but it’s more than that and Steam is more than that. Only Bethesda can be compared to Epic for as you put it “another layer”


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

Although I agree that multiple storefronts is ok but it is never ok for a game publisher to "find greener pastures" at the last minute when one already established a fanbase in the millions & been using a well-established storefront. Hence the anger of those millions of fans "bombing" the older Metro titles on Steam for their displeasure aiming exclusively at Deep Silver, with partial hate to 4A Games for not intervening this shitstorm.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> Because supporting this kind of behaviour is good? 4A have already shot themselves in the foot just by switching to a sub par platform that’s genuine sole usage is to launch Fortnite. It really doesn’t offer much more than that.  Steam has a user base in the Billions, Epic can’t and never will compete with that no matter how many games they try to poach from Steam and yes that’s exactly what they did was poaching.
> You casually pass it off as “another layer” but it’s more than that and Steam is more than that. Only Bethesda can be compared to Epic for as you put it “another layer”



It is _not _more than that. Its a *store*. You're not buying a piece of the Epic Store, you're buying a *game *and the Store is the medium that feeds you it. Steam is just the same, except with a ton of junk built around it, of which the better half is filled with pretty useless clutter. That list @Patriot posted up there... it contains every Steam feature so that it can put lots of red boxes next to the other stores... but it lacks a crucial security item like 2FA. That alone speaks volumes. This is 10 year old temper tantrum level of argument. It is a lazy customer argument, it is a short-sighted customer argument. Nobody cares about 75% of the features on that list.

How come we never saw this kind of noise about Origin, or Battlenet, or Uplay? The biggest shitstorm we saw was 'I need to DRM twice' when going through Steam and Uplay. No game boycotting, no lists like the one above... yet Origin and Uplay have been considerably _worse_ for quite a long time. Oh, and last I checked, those stores are doing just fine.

I'm sorry mate, but the level of this discussion is an all-new low for PC gamers worldwide. This is the reality: people are too lazy to install another launcher, and the 4A dev quote hits the nail on the head - if people can't be bothered to take that effort, they're not really waiting for a Metro game. He gets it, and he lays out the consequence of a boycot for the PC platform. Again: he gets it. If the game doesn't run a profit on the PC, it won't go there again. That argument has nothing to do with Epic or Steam. Its about the game. Not the store.


----------



## silentbogo (Feb 3, 2019)

VSG said:


> A user by the handle scynet on the Russian Gameinator forums claimed to be one of the developers on the Metro game franchise, and expressed disappointment, and even anger at the review bombing ongoing.


Well, that ain't gonna instigate more review bombings not a single bit.... 
Seems like the most popular counter-argument "It's only another launcher, you need 2 minutes to install it" doesn't quite work. Maybe after this fiasco their _publisher_ will understand that it's a lot more than installing a small piece of software but also: sharing your personal info with yet another company, trusting your financial data to an unproven storefront.
Another thing that this "scynet" dude cannot fit into his big head is that the biggest ranters in this mess are people like me: the ones who owns both 2033 and LL on Steam. 
To put it plainly he just shat on the actual loyal fanbase to the point where people got offended are started to cancel their Steam pre-orders. 



natr0n said:


> To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.


More like inferior platform which before tencent's involvement was supposed to be only an additional revenue stream from UE-based games, if my memory serves me right.
A better "logical" example: CDPR still publishes games on Steam, even though their own GOG has gotten lots of traction and they could've gotten away with making Witcher 3 an exclusive. Even with their ideological fight against DRM they still think and care about the end-user and they still think about keeping the company's profits flowing. 
In case of 4A - that's not the case. They thought Metro franchise was so good and had such a loyal fanbase that regardless of their actions fans would still buy the game. I'm sure that 99.9% of preorders (incl. 3rd party sites w/ so-called "physical copies") expected to get Steam keys. Now only direct Steam pre-orders are getting a game on steam, while everyone else is getting EA keys.



Vayra86 said:


> If you're not buying, then don't! It is those sales numbers that will send the _real message_. I am actually convinced the majority will just suck it up anyway and there is little reason not to. You're not _really _being harmed.


I doubt you are getting it: this whole situation is about the power of the consumer. If we can't wrestle 4A into selling on steam, then it only shows that their priorities are not with their customers.
Even THQ are trying to distance themselves from Koch and 4A controversy, but 4A apparently will defend their publisher to their last breath.


----------



## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> It is _not _more than that. Its a *store*. You're not buying a piece of the Epic Store, you're buying a *game *and the Store is the medium that feeds you it. Steam is just the same, except with a ton of junk built around it, of which the better half is filled with pretty useless clutter. That list @Patriot posted up there... it contains every Steam feature so that it can put lots of red boxes next to the other stores... but it lacks a crucial security item like 2FA. That alone speaks volumes. This is 10 year old temper tantrum level of argument. It is a lazy customer argument, it is a short-sighted customer argument.
> 
> How come we never saw this kind of noise about Origin, or Battlenet, or Uplay? The biggest shitstorm we saw was 'I need to DRM twice' when going through Steam and Uplay. No game boycotting, no lists like the one above... yet Origin and Uplay have been considerably _worse_ for quite a long time. Oh, and last I checked, those stores are doing just fine.
> 
> I'm sorry mate, but the level of this discussion is an all-new low for PC gamers worldwide. This is the reality: people are too lazy to install another launcher, and the 4A dev quote hits the nail on the head - if people can't be bothered to take that effort, they're not really waiting for a Metro game. He gets it, and he lays out the consequence of a boycot for the PC platform. Again: he gets it. If the game doesn't run a profit on the PC, it won't go there again.


Ah but we did when all of those platforms were in their infancy and were as terrible as Epic is now and most of them are now on par with what steam has to offer. Security? Epic has been hacked twice. I made my my account on some Russian guy spoofing my email? Maybe you missed the he part about how Epic wants to create your friends list by asking for your Steam and Facebook Creds so it can mine them. This is not just about a “Store” I loathed installing Battlenet for Destiny 2 but again decent platform again repeat PLATFORM these are all more than just “Stores” so stop trying to minimize them as such.  Only platform that’s actually worse than Epic’s is Bethesda again another one I had no interest installing for one game and well no need to mention the poor game in question at least I’ll be set up for Rage 2


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## MicroUnC (Feb 3, 2019)

TesterAnon said:


> Most profit possible would be releasing it in multiple stores, not removing it from one store to another just because someone gave you money.
> Consumers end getting fucked in the end by this move, so its normal to expect people to be mad about this.
> 
> Was it so hard to release it in GOG, Steam, Epic, etc at the same time? No.



Steam takes 35% from sales, epic takes 10%. Money issue 

Could be wrong!


----------



## Readlight (Feb 3, 2019)

these ps4 slow, expensive, exclusive games are also hack able.  not the best people haw money.
Its one game against millions different minded people its normal to get negative review.
Sell it on not hack able sd card.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> Ah but we did when all of those platforms were in their infancy and were as terrible as Epic is now and most of them are now on par with what steam has to offer. Security? Epic has been hacked twice. I made my my account on some Russian guy spoofing my email? Maybe you missed the he part about how Epic wants to create your friends list by asking for your Steam and Facebook Creds so it can mine them. This is not just about a “Store” I loathed installing Battlenet for Destiny 2 but again decent platform again repeat PLATFORM these are all more than just “Stores” so stop trying to minimize them as such.  Only platform that’s actually worse than Epic’s is Bethesda again another one I had no interest installing for one game and well no need to mention the poor game in question at least I’ll be set up for Rage 2



I have an Epic account and I'm not seeing much out of the ordinary. Every website wants to connect your accounts, even games do this, so they can seed your friend list in-game. I'm also seeing functional 2FA which is the very first countermeasure you deploy against compromised security. The Facebook login is widely used and is bad everywhere, Epic is no exception. If this is all surprisingly new to you, I"m not sure what you've been doing the last ten years.

Your email getting spoofed is not Epic's fault. Just the other day news came out about 2.2 BILLION account detail combinations being out there in the wild and it likely includes yours - it did include mine. That is another issue entirely.

Platform? No. The *games *offer the online communities, not the platform, regardless of how much they try to make it so. A community is tied to a game, not to a storefront like Steam. There is no 'Steam community' consisting of 95% of PC gamers worldwide that have nothing in common. Its just a big dataset, nothing more. The games determine what people you see online at what games. With or without Steam. Devs can make those frameworks themselves and they can do it as good or better.

Calling a store a platform is simply wrong. A platform immediately_ implies a degree of exclusivity_ which is exactly what people are up in arms about. Steam is as much a 'self imposed exclusivity' as a release on Epic alone. Its an irony you and everyone else completely fail to see.


----------



## nemesis.ie (Feb 3, 2019)

IMO, the issue here is the exclusive, I hate those on ALL platforms.

What should be happening here is that the game goes on Epic's site AND on Steam the buyer can then decide, if Epic charge the dev less and they can put it on the Epic store for less, folks can vote with their wallet if they want it cheaper or if they choose to use steam, they pay more but the dev could make nearly the same money.

Simple.  This messing around and "exclusivity" BS is what is wrong here and does not deserve to be supported. IMO of course.


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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> I have an Epic account and I'm not seeing much out of the ordinary. Every website wants to connect your accounts, even games do this, so they can seed your friend list in-game. I'm also seeing functional 2FA which is the very first countermeasure you deploy against compromised security. The Facebook login is widely used and is bad everywhere, Epic is no exception.
> 
> Your email getting spoofed is not Epic's fault. Just the other day news came out about 2.2 BILLION account detail combinations being out there in the wild and it likely includes yours - it did include mine. That is another issue entirely.
> 
> Platform? No. The *games *offer the online communities, not the platform, regardless of how much they try to make it so. A community is tied to a game, not to a storefront like Steam. There is no 'Steam community' consisting of 95% of PC gamers worldwide. Its just a big dataset, nothing more. The games determine what people you see online at what games. With or without Steam. Devs can make those frameworks themselves and they can do it as good or better.


But they don’t and you know it they all use the features of the platform. Friends list, joining games, VOIP, etc ALL the platform not the game. The fact that every Steam game has a Community Hub(Forum) is actually great along with Guides and in Steams case all accessible in said game. Used RE2s a few times earlier this evening when I got stuck I just Alt+Tabbed and clicked the guides. Do you even pay any attention to the features these platforms you seem to make every effort to minimize to what Epic currently is?


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## birdie (Feb 3, 2019)

> Perhaps emotions took over, when he then *effectively threatened* that the Metro series would not come to the PC platform again, and be a console exclusive, should this behavior continue and also if PC gamers in turn decide to not buy Metro Exodus as a result of the move from Steam to the Epic Games Store.



As a native Russian speaker I have to disagree with this loose interpretation of his words.

Here's his full post (© 2019 Artem S. Tashkinov):



> I've watched the shit storm that gave me contradicting impressions. On the one hand, Steam withdrawal was dubious, no one before us has done this so abruptly (as far as I know). This is new and and it could have caused resentment. And also this move makes it necessary to install the Epic launcher, so it could have inconvenienced certain gamers, and caused resentment.
> 
> On the other hand a reaction of the certain category of players ("torrents" only and likewise [he meant those who pirate games]) is hardly adequate. I've got the impression that people didn't really want to play and they have been waiting for a reason to pour out bile. It turns out that we (the developers) have toiled over for years trying to create something extraordinary but a certain category of players believes that our work isn't worth two minutes of installing a new game launcher. Naturally, it's their life and right, but why do they care about Metro at all? Obviously, they are not interested. I can only say that they've never been _our_ players, they are not interested in our work, and as a result, for example, I'm not interested in their opinion. What's the point of me (and not only me) listening to their opinion?
> 
> ...


----------



## Kamgusta (Feb 3, 2019)

They have been bashed just because they received a bribe by EPIC to provide a temporal exclusive on a niche PC platform/store nobody uses/wants to use?
And for pulling out their game from the biggest store in the PC market, after it has been sit there on preorder for 5 months (so abusing all the Steam advertising, without paying it back)?
How strange.
So now they want to publish on consoles only?
Dear 4A Games, fu.. you, err, I mean, good luck to you.
I/we don't care at all.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

birdie said:


> As a native Russian speaker I have to disagree with this loose interpretation of his words.
> 
> Here's his full post (© 2019 Artem S. Tashkinov):



Yeah exactly. My Dutch google translation also wasn't quite as fiery as the title on TPU wants to suggest. The guy simply predicts what will happen after a boycot on PC. And he's right. We only stand to lose here, Tencent is sure as hell not going to cave in at this point. At the same time I think for the general consumer this is positive, because it deals a punishing blow to Steam's near-monopoly.



INSTG8R said:


> But they don’t and you know it they all use the features of the platform. Friends list, joining games, VOIP, etc ALL the platform not the game. The fact that every Steam game has a Community Hub(Forum) is actually great along with Guides and in Steams case all accessible in said game. Used RE2s a few times earlier this evening when I got stuck I just Alt+Tabbed and clicked the guides. Do you even pay any attention to the features these platforms you seem to make every effort to minimize to what Epic currently is?



They don't and you know why? Because they pay 30% revenue for that already to Lord Gaben. We're going in circles here. When I get stuck I alt+tab and type something in Google... never fails. If I want to access a friends list/community beyond a single game, I use Discord. I mean, its not rocket science and its being done all over the place, much more so than Steam's 'community features'. Because Steams' features are still Steam's alone. Discord and the like are not limited like that.

The community hubs. Yes. Other games have forums and guess what, most developers STILL use their own channels for the real announcements, and most importantly, for the _real feedback loops_. Countless devs never even bother visiting community hubs, they just exist as the cesspool that they usually are. The quality of those comments and topics... is very low, more often than not. You go ahead and compare a random Steam community hub with the developers' own Forum space. It is _miles apart. _And you find the REAL information, with megathreads about builds, mechanics, and groups of players, on the developers' own forums. Not on Steam. Steam doesn't even offer a real forum functionality, all it has is very archaic 'post your comment' and 'start a topic'. Even reloading a page from an opened forum topic kicks you right back to the Community Hub, losing what you were reading altogether. Its utterly crap all over. You even get to deal with a 2000 character limit. WTF!? Its 2019, Gaben.

So yes, I minimize it because it is simply irrelevant, there are other, much better alternatives around and they have been there since day one.


----------



## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Yeah exactly. My Dutch google translation also wasn't quite as fiery as the title on TPU wants to suggest. The guy simply predicts what will happen after a boycot on PC. And he's right. We only stand to lose here, Tencent is sure as hell not going to cave in at this point. At the same time I think for the general consumer this is positive, because it deals a punishing blow to Steam's near-monopoly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn’t just Steam it’s just the most feature rich of them all. Origin and Uplay have the same basic social functionality. Yeah we all use Discord and we used Teamspeak before that but you still use the platforms for partying up/playing together.  Just because you don’t choose to use them or acknowledge their actual functionality doesn’t diminish the fact they exist and are used.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> This isn’t just Steam it’s just the most feature rich of them all. Origin and Uplay have the same basic social functionality. Yeah we all use Discord and we used Teamspeak before that but you still use the platforms for partying up/playing together.  Just because you don’t choose to use them or acknowledge their actual functionality doesn’t diminish the fact they exist and are used.



That's all fine but it has literally no impact on your gaming experience if a platform doesn't because as you and I say, people can and do use other methods to get in touch. Besides, Metro is convincingly and overwhelmingly a single player experience. I fail to see how this is relevant in defending a boycot.

This is what they call 'grasping at straws'.


----------



## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> That's all fine but it has literally no impact on your gaming experience if a platform doesn't because as you and I say, people can and do use other methods to get in touch. Besides, Metro is convincingly and overwhelmingly a single player experience. I fail to see how this is relevant in defending a boycot.
> 
> This is what they call 'grasping at straws'.


Well my issue isn’t with the game but their choice of platform I think that should be pretty obvious. They literally went from the best to the absolute worst. It will do absolutely nothing for thier sales regardless of any controversy.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

silentbogo said:


> I doubt you are getting it: this whole situation is about the power of the consumer. If we can't wrestle 4A into selling on steam, then it only shows that their priorities are not with their customers. Even THQ are trying to distance themselves from Koch and 4A controversy, but 4A apparently will defend their publisher to their last breath.



We don't disagree, its about the power of the consumer - but he needs to get his priorities straight. You don't play Steam. You play games.


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## Kamgusta (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> We don't disagree, its about the power of the consumer - but he needs to get his priorities straight. You don't play Steam. You play games.


Take note of this "priority": STEAM is dated 2003. That means 16 years in business without big problems. I still can play "Dungeon Siege" from 2002. And I still will be able to do that in 2030.
What about all those new launchers? In 10 years from now, will that "Epic Launcher" (1 year old) still be here with my Exodus copy?
I don't care about launchers. I care about my digital properties.
I trust STEAM because it is the biggest and more trustworthy player in the field and so I want all my purchases to be there.
Simple as that.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Yeah exactly. My Dutch google translation also wasn't quite as fiery as the title on TPU wants to suggest. The guy simply predicts what will happen after a boycot on PC. And he's right. We only stand to lose here, Tencent is sure as hell not going to cave in at this point. At the same time I think for the general consumer this is positive, because it deals a punishing blow to Steam's near-monopoly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The most recent example of this I saw was Mutant Year Zero. The community hub completely doesnt exist on Steam.  It redirects you to their own site where all the news and forums are.  They are well-attended too.


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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> We don't disagree, its about the power of the consumer - but he needs to get his priorities straight. You don't play Steam. You play games.


And 80% of the games I play are on Steam, almost 500. Have almost 60 on Origin and around 40  on Uplay and currently 1 on Bethesda, 1 on Battlenet and 0 on Epic despite grabbing their freebies.


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## Ravenmaster (Feb 3, 2019)

Well this is a good lesson. "How to not sell any copies of your game." Good job Metro devs!


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## ab3e (Feb 3, 2019)

Let me tell you kids a story:

The year is approximately 2105, after the great economic collapse and the 1 year global resource war society as we knew it was gone. The vast cities once the beating heart of our grand nation now just decomposing steel and concrete carcases are a small reminder of the perfect lives we had. In one of these crumbling cities inside a skyscraper somewhere on the 30th floor in a dark room a fire is visible. A small family sits and tries to keep worm in this never-ending atomic winter.

                After moments of silence that seemed like an eternity one of the children speaks.

                Great grandpa please tell us how it was before the war, before monsters roamed the cities, before people enslaved people and food and water were plenty.

                The old man looked at the small dirty child and said.

Back in those civilized days there were even more horrific things happening.

                More horrific than the sand worm that captured Timmy and slowly digested him?

                More horrific than grandma cutting her own arm so we can have something to eat? said another scared and malnourished child.

How about I tell you kids how I survived the launch of the Epic game store and the exclusivity of Metro Exodus. Can you imagine a digital distribution platform with no cloud saves, no forums, no groups, no family sharing, no user reviews nothing! 

                After a moment of silence all children speak unanimously like guided by the winds of fate and ask one simple question: What’s a cloud save grandpa?

                The old man looked at the children, his eyes full of anger and hate, they were eyes of toxicity and entitlement, eyes that could pierce and devour a child’s innocent soul and with those eyes he said: 
Shut up and eat your mom!!!


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 3, 2019)

Simply idiots.

It is somehow bribed, the whole move. I smell corruption. It looks like scripted. The dev post itself looks darn stupid, the end part especially.

Just put the darn thing on steam, tax more, let it be cheaper on epic or whatever store you put it. Any reasonable CEO would have done it. Everyone would have justice, a mature decision.

This? It looks like old habits.


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## ZoneDymo (Feb 3, 2019)

Jeez what a bunch of drama.... SJW's out in full force


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## Vayra86 (Feb 3, 2019)

Kamgusta said:


> Take note of this "priority": STEAM is dated 2003. That means 16 years in business without big problems. I still can play "Dungeon Siege" from 2002. And I still will be able to do that in 2030.
> What about all those new launchers? In 10 years from now, will that "Epic Launcher" (1 year old) still be here with my Exodus copy?
> I don't care about launchers. I care about my digital properties.
> I trust STEAM because it is the biggest and more trustworthy player in the field and so I want all my purchases to be there.
> Simple as that.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games

Hmmm


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## Totally (Feb 3, 2019)

natr0n said:


> If you were a dev you would want to make the most profit possible to insure you will still have a studio for new games.
> 
> *To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.*



That isn't logical it all here. To ensure the studio survives at the end of the day they need to maximize sales by making sure the have as much exposure to potential customers as possible and that means being on every storefront, physical or digital, that they are able to be present at. Shunning the largest _already_ established digital store which I'm guessing has access to 90%+ of PC gamers in favor of one that is yet unproven and current exposure is the population of those who play fortnite. That is illogical, what would be logical would be to release both games on both platforms.


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## TheOne (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> We also don’t know, as one of our members asserted here, that any Steam keys sold must go through the Epic launcher.



The only thing I've heard about keys is that physical pre-orders will ship with Epic keys.

https://www.pcgamer.com/metro-exodu...c-store-but-steam-preorders-will-be-honoured/


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

Dear Devs,

Your behavior is bordering on the childish. You're creating a great deal of bad press for yourselves.

First, you pull out of a previously committed to distribution channel people were expecting to use for one few want to use. Second, the public reacts with the only method of protest available to them, reviews of existing games released by you. Third, you respond with a threat to boycott the PC platform. 

The public will respond to this, likely with a boycott of your products on all platforms. What will you do then? Blame everyone else? Or will you hold yourself accountable for your own silly and short-sighted choices?


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Second, the public reacts with the only method of protest available to them, reviews of existing games released by you


No, the public who are just as childish do that, because reviews of previous games should be reviews of the games.  Mature customers have a method of registering unhappiness, which is to not buy the new games. 

Please don’t condone infantile actions like review bombing.  There really is no excuse for them to do that.  

For the record, if it was a member of the dev team, he was not threatening. He laid out facts. If people do not buy a pc version of a game, then future investment in the PC platform is not likely. That’s just business.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

natr0n said:


> If you were a dev you would want to make the most profit possible to insure you will still have a studio for new games.
> To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.


If you want to make lots of money, you make your game availible on as many platforms as possible. Going exclusive to a little known and not well liked platform is foolish and narrow-minded.


phanbuey said:


> It's not about the platform -- it's about exclusivity. The whole " you can ONLY buy it here" that EA, EPIC and others are trying to push.





phanbuey said:


> Honestly if they want to publish their FPS for console only, good luck to them. I'm not buying this game until it comes to Steam.


With you there, except that I'm waiting for GOG. And if they don't bring it to GOG, oh well, life goes on..


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## Midland Dog (Feb 3, 2019)

why do people insist on fighting the internet, what are yous farken thick? this will be like battlefield sjw all over again


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## xkm1948 (Feb 3, 2019)

Great way to F up your IP. Guess wut? Nobody f**king cares. They can go royally go f**k themselves


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## silentbogo (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games
> 
> Hmmm


And that means what? That they existed as a game dev. studio for some time?
If anything, it should be like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games_Store



rtwjunkie said:


> No, the public who are just as childish do that, because reviews of previous games should be reviews of the games. Mature customers have a method of registering unhappiness, which is to not buy the new games.


And a mature publisher or game dev. does not pull games off the platform 3 weeks prior to release, and does not allow its employees to post angry rants on the net.
What did they expect? That thousands of teenagers and tweens will behave like adults after being duped by Koch and later shitcanned by supposedly 4A employee? On the f#$%n internet? Pfff....


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> No, the public who are just as childish do that, because reviews of previous games should be reviews of the games.


Gotta disagree. It's the only avenue of complaint. Companies have made it difficult to get in touch with them to render input in a public forum.


rtwjunkie said:


> Mature customers have a method of registering unhappiness, which is to not buy the new games.


But that doesn't send a message to anyone but the person not buying the game. The devs have no clue why the purchase is not being made.


rtwjunkie said:


> Please don’t condone infantile actions like review bombing. There really is no excuse for them to do that.


Normally I wouldn't, but if it's the only option to make statement? People are pissed, understandably so. This was an infantile choice by the devs, and that is the response they're getting. They have only themselves to blame. If they had promised a release on GOG and then pulled it at the last moment, I'd be pissed as well.


rtwjunkie said:


> For the record, if it was a member of the dev team, he was not threatening. He laid out facts. If people do not buy a pc version of a game, then future investment in *the PC platform is not likely.* That’s just business.


And that is a self imposed problem. What they needed to do to make the most money was sell the game on every platform, not going exclusive. This is not the 90's, exclusivity is no longer a good business tactic. Diversity is.


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## Totally (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> People do not buy a pc version of a game, then future investment in the PC platform is not likely. That’s just business.



That is not just business, that is bad business. Whatever happens going forward is because if their decisions, not investing is done when there is not a market or a very weak one or something equally out of their control. Displeased customers due their decisions is something within their ability to rectify.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> not giving a detailed apology



No one owes an apology except the schmucks review bombing and potentially 'the dev'.


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## Midland Dog (Feb 3, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> No one owes an apology except the schmucks review bombing and potentially 'the dev'.


why should review bombers apologise? they bought the pre order on steam for 60 bucks, and copped a bit of dry dick when it got taken off steam and put on epic for 29.99, funny enough doing the math 4a would make more through steam


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## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

This sums it up nicely for me.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> No one owes an apology except the schmucks review bombing and potentially 'the dev'.


They promise to release on a particular platform and then switch to another platform right before release? No, the devs don't need to apologize at all. Nope.(sarcasm)


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

Midland Dog said:


> why should review bombers apologise? they bought the pre order on steam for 60 bucks, and copped a bit of dry dick when it got taken off steam and put on epic for 29.99, funny enough doing the math 4a would make more through steam



Because they will still be able to play it on Steam by all accounts so far.  They can also get refunds on Steam and purchase the Epic version for a discount.

And review bombing is for morons.


----------



## M2B (Feb 3, 2019)

How much time it takes to install epic store? 1 hour? 2 hours? 3 hours?what?
I mean seriously, complainers are wasting hours of their time on internent complaining about all this stuff but refuse to install a launcher?! What the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

M2B said:


> How much time it takes to install epic store?


That's not the point. Installing the client is only one step. You also have to setup an account and whatnot. People don't want to have clients/accounts all over the place.


----------



## M2B (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's not the point. Installing the client is only one step. You also have to setup an account and whatnot. People don't want to have clients/accounts all over the place.



Cheap excuses.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

M2B said:


> Valid motivations.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## CronXPX (Feb 3, 2019)

After reading the original message in russian, I personally did not find any threatening in this message, just a simple fact - "if you don’t buy our game on PC platform, we will not be able to support it in the future". 
Is there something illogical or threatening in this? Where? This is how it works. It's just business.
But yeah I get it, for the sake of drama and clickbait you just need to translate it in that way, right?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

CronXPX said:


> Is there something illogical


Illogical, yes. If they want to sell more they need to deploy on more platforms. Simple business logic.


----------



## UrbanCamper (Feb 3, 2019)

Hmmm I bought the game on Steam. If they actually do this how the heck am I supposed to get my money back. Hope Steam honors there patrons over this.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 3, 2019)

M2B said:


> How much time it takes to install epic store? 1 hour? 2 hours? 3 hours?what?
> I mean seriously, complainers are wasting hours of their time on internent complaining about all this stuff but refuse to install a launcher?! What the fuck is wrong with you?



If you want me to use a private launcher just sell it on your webpage and don't make me download yet another stupid program. At this point I have like 6 different game libraries because everyone thinks they need to be exclusive. At this point I would rather go to the store and buy it on a disk.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

cdawall said:


> At this point I would rather go to the store and buy it on a disk.


Right there with you.


----------



## M2B (Feb 3, 2019)

cdawall said:


> At this point I have like 6 different game libraries because everyone thinks they need to be exclusive.



Why didn't you avoid installing yet another game library after the fifth one then?
They don't think they need to be exculsive, they think they can make more money this way.


----------



## c2DDragon (Feb 3, 2019)

Either they did remove it from Steam to make more profits or for any other reason I don't care.
Those moves to remove/block content from Steam tend to stop the monopoly of this fucking DRM store where we don't actually own the games we paid.
People are dumb, they like to be fooled by "amazing steam discounts" which are a manner to sell games people wouldn't even buy and will never play or maybe 1hour.
Long time ago we used the all-seeing eye to find servers for Counter Strike, Day of Defeat and so on. We were litteraly forced to use Steam so, to launch the DRM store to play.
Now we got fanboys faggots, who never known the before Steam era, who want to destroy dev reputations and use their internet virtual power (which can do damages somehow) to kill games in the egg.
Look, we have Steam, Origins, Uplay, Epic Store, Battle.net, every MMORPG got its launcher with a shop. People in 2018/2019 still don't understand why buying on Steam a Ubi game doesn't prevent them to launch Uplay (even if it's written on the store pages) for example.

I think the Steam monopoly was big enough to make people stop thinking.
"I use only Steam because I got everything on it I don't want to launch something other it's too much pain." -> You don't own any games which is bought on Steam, like, not even one. If they close shop for any Gabe's freaking insane reason we are all fucked up, a few would then search for cracks and anything to permit to play (and no Offline mode doesn't work forever), but not lambda people.

Having many opportunities is better than being stuck with one fucking DRM dollar making. Competition is better for customers.
For now Exodus will be on Epic Store only (for some time and not forever) but look, if the Epic Store grows enough, Steam could possibly open negotiations with them don't you think ?
You don't want the (new) DRM ? Crack your games, get repacks but don't put bomb reviews, call for boycott or blame devs who make games that permit us gamers to escape real life problems for a few hours.

Few weeks ago I remember I've read a lesbian girl playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey was crying that her Cassandra she played lesbian in every romance was forced in a DLC to get a guy. I bet when she goes to cinema if she doesn't like the scenario she cries and call for riot too.
What I want to say about this is if you don't like how moves are made in the gaming industry you can just pass but don't destroy well-earned reputations or be grottesque please. Gaming is one of a few things left in the world where we have some liberty.


----------



## INSTG8R (Feb 3, 2019)

UrbanCamper said:


> Hmmm I bought the game on Steam. If they actually do this how the heck am I supposed to get my money back. Hope Steam honors there patrons over this.


They’ve said they’ll honour and support as per normal.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

So, people dying from starvation....people dying from religious wars....Metro gets moved to Epic Store.  LAWD HAVE MERCEH!!!11!! PUT OUT THE FIRES!!!11!! Do something, we can't take it.........


----------



## cdawall (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Right there with you.



At this point I would pay extra for the convenience to not install another stupid launcher.


----------



## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 3, 2019)

review bombing is one thing, screwing customers over a "last minute" change is plain wrong, no matter how you look at it. Also, for a "game dev" threatening the large fanbase over petty review bombing shows how childish they are. If they really cared about their customers & not those lobbyists, then they should have put up an apology that they couldn't do shit coz their publishers; Deep Silver had the final say.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

cdawall said:


> At this point I would pay extra for the convenience to not install another stupid launcher.


Another reason why I love GOG.


moproblems99 said:


> So, people dying from starvation....people dying from religious wars....


This has nothing to do with...


moproblems99 said:


> Metro gets moved to Epic Store.


...this. Stay on topic and don't marginalize any of those problems by comparing them out of context.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> They promise to release on one platform


PC is a PLATFORM, just as consoles are a PLATFORM.  Steam is no more a separate platform from Uplay that Xbox1 is a separate platform from PS4.



lexluthermiester said:


> this. Stay on topic and don't marginalize any of those problems by comparing them out of context.


People aren’t marginalizing out of context. In the grand scheme of things, they are pointing out this is so minor it won’t even be a footnote in history. It won’t cause famine or wars or disease or poverty.  It’s a first world problem in which self-important entitled people think everything should be to their liking.


----------



## mcraygsx (Feb 3, 2019)

So the MOB turned against the developer only because users refuse to install another game launch platform on their machines. Such gamer's do not deserve this kind of game at first place.

After steam, UPLAY and Battle.net, I do not mind installing EPIC game launcher if i can enjoy my game. I bet some toxic people along with steam is putting fuel to the fire and loving it.
I understand where people are coming from but slight annoyance should not keep you away from the game that you will enjoy.


----------



## M2B (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> It’s a first world problem



It's the same story here in my 3rd world country if you like, everyone is complaining.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> PC is a PLATFORM, just as consoles are a PLATFORM.


Sorry if that wasn't specific enough. Corrected.


rtwjunkie said:


> People aren’t marginalizing out of context.


That is exactly what he was doing.


rtwjunkie said:


> It won’t cause famine or wars or disease or poverty.


And no one expects it to.


rtwjunkie said:


> It’s a first world problem which self-important entitled people think everything should be to their liking.


It is not relevant what part of the world it happens in, people want to play games as a form of entertainment. THEY are the ones paying and feel like they should have a say in how they play. If they don't want use a certain platform, they vote with their wallet. But if they want to let the dev/publisher know of their displeasure at the lack of choice, how do they do that? Looks like they found a way and that message is being heard. And the dev in question is reacting as wisely as the choice which motivated the public angst in the first place.



mcraygsx said:


> So the MOB turned against the developer only because users refuse to install another game launch platform on their machines. Such gamer's do not deserve this kind of game at first place.


That is the same narrow-minded nonsense that started all of this.



mcraygsx said:


> I understand where people are coming from but slight annoyance should not keep you away from the game that you will enjoy.


Slight annoyance? Keep thinking that when you're denied access to the game you paid for because of some silly problem or the whim of a dev. All DRM sucks. Steam's form of it is the least offensive and irritating. Epic's is a pain in the butt. No thank you.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> It is not relevant what part of the world it happens in, people want to play games as form of entertainment. THEY are ones paying and feel like they should have a say in how they play.




People don't control how things are done at Disney.
People don't control how tings are done at sporting events.
People don't control how things are done at state fairs and such.
People don't go review bomb imdb when a Disney movie doesn't end how they want (I hope) Edit: previously released movies.

This who thing just screams childish, self-entitlement.  Just go ahead and pretend all of these games are self-installed.  Close your eyes and imagine yourself entering a disk.


----------



## StanicEnemy (Feb 3, 2019)

I am pretty sure the devs are retarded and acting like 16 y/o child.

Steam is a serious platform when you compare to epic games which means kids.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> People don't control how things are done at Disney.
> People don't control how tings are done at sporting events.
> People don't control how things are done at state fairs and such.
> People don't go review bomb imdb when a Disney movie doesn't end how they want (I hope) Edit: previously released movies.


You're going out of context again. Comparing apples to oranges mean anything to you?


----------



## mcraygsx (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Sorry if that wasn't specific enough. Corrected.
> 
> That is exactly what he was doing.
> 
> ...



How is it narrow minded when I cleared mentioned that I do consider alternative perspectives of others and concerns but this is not the end of world or PC gaming. Developers have full discretion how to release their game. This is not a new two man team indie developer. 4A Games might be an underdog but have a proven track record when it comes to fantastic METRO series. This reminds of Cloud Imperium Games even though kick starter goals have been changed dozens of  time and yet consumers are still spending money.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

mcraygsx said:


> Developers have full discretion how to release their game.


Sure they do and people have the discretion to express their discontent.


----------



## mcraygsx (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Sure they do and people have the discretion to express their discontent.



True but in Civilized society we do not rush to arm ourselves with pitchfork and torches.

This is a perfect example about what you are defending "but this then led to the mob turning against Metro 2033 and Metro: Last Light by leaving an extreme number of negative reviews on the respective Steam store pages."

It is shameful to see people leave negative comments on PAST games only because their do not agree with developers choice of platform for their upcoming game.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

mcraygsx said:


> True but in Civilized society we do not rush to arm ourselves with pitchfork and torches.


More out-of-context talk.


mcraygsx said:


> It is shameful to see people leave negative comments on PAST games only because their do not agree with developers choice of platform for their upcoming game.


I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's their only option to communicate with the devs in a meaningful way. My personal take is that until they bring the title to GOG, I'm not buying it. Epic sucks as much as Origin, not using it. But my choice doesn't communicate *anything* to the dev. With me not buying, they don't know I'm a potential sale that's being lost due to their choice of platform conflicting with my preferences.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're going out of context again. Comparing apples to oranges mean anything to you?



Except it's not.  These are all avenues for people to find entertainment.  It's quite disheartening to see many adults (I think anyway) to act in such a childish manner.  I expected better from some of you.


----------



## sepheronx (Feb 3, 2019)

If they are not releasing it on steam, then why do they care about the review bombs on steam then?  Game isn't out yet anyway.


----------



## mcraygsx (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> More out-of-context talk.
> 
> I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's their only option to communicate with the devs in a meaningful way. My personal take is that until they bring the title to GOG, I'm not buying it. Epic sucks as much as Origin, not using it. But my choice doesn't communicate *anything* to the dev. With me not buying, they don't know I'm a potential sale that's being lost due to their choice of platform conflicting with my preferences.



But you are utterly defending this behavior and that says a lot thus adding fuel to the fire saying. Strange I did not see consumers leave Negative feedback for Windows 7 when Windows 10 is imperfect OS.

This whole situation is wrong, immoral and childish since now you are turning off potential buyers of previous METRO 2033 and METRO Last light with negative feedback on steam. Punishing/ Boycott  developer for their upcoming title is one thing but its another when you flood their PAST titles with negative reviews or change your reviews all together.


----------



## OneMoar (Feb 3, 2019)

How not to handle pr
cue them back peddling and blaming it on a translation error in 3 2 1 ...

I thought 4a was better then this apparently I am yet again reminded that all developers are whiny children

and no I will not buy this game from the epics garbage platform they have a history of not knowing what the fuck they are doing (security  breaches loss of user and credit data Nooooo thank you) 

good way to encourage people to pirate your shit, put it on a shitty platform with a poor track record and watch people flok to the usual places to get it for free


----------



## Mescalamba (Feb 3, 2019)

Pretty sure its publisher or creator right to sell it wherever they want. And Im perfectly ok with that.

They did it cause EPIC takes least of their money. Which as far as Im concerned are money well deserved.

This wouldnt happen if Steam offered something like fair share.

If I was making game, I would try to deliver it to fans as cheap as I can (preferably while also getting largest cut of it). Cause its kinda hard to make any next game if you dont have money for it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

mcraygsx said:


> But you are utterly defending this behavior and that says a lot thus adding fuel to the fire saying.


Not defending it, only stating that I understand it. And if all of this motivates the devs to branch out and stop the exclusivity BS, then mores the better. If they decide to cut their noses off to spite their faces, that's their own problem.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Feb 3, 2019)

Don't understand why anyone is surprised by this ?!  This developer has a history of taking money for exclusivity stuff through the years...  especially from nvidia for gameworks and now rtx, so why not Epic also?

They are following the same thing they always do.


----------



## OneMoar (Feb 3, 2019)

except epic is playing dirty there not interested in giving developers a piece of the pie 

here is how this is gonna go for the people that don't get it

epic is gonna offer a tasty agreement to get devs signed on, then once they have signed away there rights there gonna ratchet the percent they take right up  to the limit

epic is not the good guy here there the bad guys there playing dirty because they want a piece of the digital distribution pie and if you think for a nano second they give two fucks about the developers you obviously understand very little


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> But if they want to let the dev/publisher know of their displeasure at the lack of choice, how do they do that? Looks like they found a way and that message is being heard. And the dev in question is reacting as wisely as the choice which motivated the public angst in the first place.


Here’s the thing.  Very few dev’s have any control over how and where their product is sold.  Heck, most can’t even control the release date and have to send out unfinished products per the demand of the publisher.  The dev is not who went with Epic.  It’s THQ.

People don’t need to be giving false reviews of their prior releases Metro games.  You act as if the publisher has no idea so many people are angry.  Of course they do!  So to back that up all the people need to do is not buy the game.  Publishers are filled with businesss types that can add 1plus 1.  If it doesn’t sell well, they will know why.  But to blast the devs by negative ratings of the previous games is not fair and is the height of priveleged immaturity.


----------



## mcraygsx (Feb 3, 2019)

Mescalamba said:


> Pretty sure its publisher or creator right to sell it wherever they want. And Im perfectly ok with that.
> 
> They did it cause EPIC takes least of their money. Which as far as Im concerned are money well deserved.
> 
> ...



Bingo, it all boils down to financial situation like everything else these days. Steam has overgrown it's usefulness and has dominated the sector for a while for a good reason. They probably see METRO Exodus as a next big hit and overreaction at the highest.


----------



## OneMoar (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Here’s the thing.  Very few dev’s have any control over how and where their product is sold.  Heck, most can’t even control the release date and have to send out unfinished products per the demand of the publisher.
> 
> People don’t need to be giving false reviews of their prior releases Metro games.  You act as if the publisher has no idea so many people are angry.  Of course they do!  So to back that up all the people need to do is not buy the game.  Publishers are filled with businesss types that can add 1plus 1.  If it doesn’t sell well, they will know why.  But to blast the devs by negative ratings of the previous games is not fair and is the height of priveleged immaturity.



except this is not a publisher issue its a dev issue its 4A them selves running their mouths here and it was 4A's choice to get suckered in by epic

and once again epic are not the good guys here you people need to have look at their track record


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> except this is not a publisher issue its a dev issue its 4A them selves running their mouths here and it was 4A's choice to get suckered in by epic
> 
> and once again epic are not the good guys here you people need to have look at their track record


No. A member of the dev team (supposedly) stated the truth: if money is not made on the PC platform, there won’t be any money for the next game to be on PC.  Do you know why?  Because the publishers front development money, in anticipation of a game recouping their investment plus profit.  

So the member of the dev team is simply pointing out that without sales, the dev team gets paid less and the publisher won’t front pc development and distribution money again.  This person recognizes the harsh realities and how 4A gets the short end of the stick in this.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Because the publishers front development money, in anticipation of a game recouping their investment plus profit.


Then the publishers should have had more sense than to pull the rug out from under everyone.


rtwjunkie said:


> So the member of the dev team is simply pointing out that without sales, the dev team gets paid less and the publisher won’t front pc development and distribution money again. This person recognizes the harsh realities and how 4A gets the short end of the stick in this.


Sad truth. So maybe the devs need to find a better, less narrow focused publisher who will make their game available to the largest audience possible. That's good business ethics. What they're doing now is a good way to go out of business.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Then the publishers should have had more sense than to pull the rug out from under everyone.
> 
> Sad truth. so maybe the devs need to find a better, less narrow focused publisher who will make their game available to the largest audience possible.


Absolutely! I agree with both of your points!


----------



## OneMoar (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> No. A member of the dev team (supposedly) stated the truth: if money is not made on the PC platform, there won’t be any money for the next game to be on PC.  Do you know why?  Because the publishers front development money, in anticipation of a game recouping their investment plus profit.
> 
> So the member of the dev team is simply pointing out that without sales, the dev team gets paid less and the publisher won’t front pc development and distribution money again.  This person recognizes the harsh realities and how 4A gets the short end of the stick in this.



to this I say kthxbai
take your toys and leave the sandbox then
what we have here is a toddler throwing a tantrum because he knows hes in trouble


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> to this I say kthxbai
> take your toys and leave the sandbox then
> what we have here is a toddler throwing a tantrum because he knows hes in trouble


But HE is not in trouble.  Very few devs can just pick up and leave a publisher.  Most are tied in tight, legally, and end up getting screwed when things like this happen. 

Leaving the sandbox is not easy. It’s usually a long and exhausting legal fight over IP, past royalties, future games, and quite expensive.  The news is full of these accounts over the years.


----------



## OneMoar (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> But HE is not in trouble.  Very few devs can just pick up and leave a publisher.  Most are tied in tight, legally, and end up getting screwed when things like this happen.
> 
> Leaving the sandbox is not easy. It’s usually a long and exhausting legal fight over IP, past royalties, future games, and quite expensive.  The news is full of these accounts over the years.



Except again ignoring the back peddling THQ already said that this was a 4a decision

so here is what I imagined   happened

4a/Koch Media  saw Epics tasty bit of a offer and wanted in on it THQ Nordic (the guys that really have the final say)  said no knowing better 4a/Koch Media  pitched a fit and THQ was forced begrudgingly to allow it hence there initial statement throwing 4a/Koch Media  under the bus, once they saw all the idiots in support of the decision they back peddled to save face 

you guys really need to step back and evaluate how these scum lords operate


----------



## Patriot (Feb 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> It is _not _more than that. Its a *store*. You're not buying a piece of the Epic Store, you're buying a *game *and the Store is the medium that feeds you it. Steam is just the same, except with a ton of junk built around it, of which the better half is filled with pretty useless clutter. That list @Patriot posted up there... it contains every Steam feature so that it can put lots of red boxes next to the other stores... but it lacks a crucial security item like 2FA. That alone speaks volumes. This is 10 year old temper tantrum level of argument. It is a lazy customer argument, it is a short-sighted customer argument. Nobody cares about 75% of the features on that list.
> 
> How come we never saw this kind of noise about Origin, or Battlenet, or Uplay? The biggest shitstorm we saw was 'I need to DRM twice' when going through Steam and Uplay. No game boycotting, no lists like the one above... yet Origin and Uplay have been considerably _worse_ for quite a long time. Oh, and last I checked, those stores are doing just fine.
> 
> I'm sorry mate, but the level of this discussion is an all-new low for PC gamers worldwide. This is the reality: people are too lazy to install another launcher, and the 4A dev quote hits the nail on the head - if people can't be bothered to take that effort, they're not really waiting for a Metro game. He gets it, and he lays out the consequence of a boycot for the PC platform. Again: he gets it. If the game doesn't run a profit on the PC, it won't go there again. That argument has nothing to do with Epic or Steam. Its about the game. Not the store.



Dev and you are delirious.
I am not giving my money and information to Epic so that it can get stolen or sold.  In the short time they have had their excuse for a store open they have already had 2 security breaches.
I would love to play the game, but I won't be paying for it till it comes to GOG or Steam.  AND yes there is plenty of people who no longer play certain games because of Uplay.

People care about support forums
People care about ease of playing together.
People care about gifting and game sharing...
People care about name change 
about....
Well over half of those things I would say everyone cares about, and the rest shifts depending on the group.
Just because the list favors the most built out content delivery system that currently exists doesn't mean you should just ignore it.

You may not care about anything other than playing single player because you have no friends... but in reality they are wanted features.   The consequence for using a content delivery system for your advertisement and revenue generation, then stealing from them is lack of sales.

I intensely dislike Origin, I will not use Uplay or MS store, GOG gives choices and drm free options, for that I am grateful and you don't have to use the launcher if you don't want, just download the game and play directly because no DRM, can even add the game to steam and play that way.

Treating your customers like shit is why piracy happens.  Forcing them to do things your way... We play on PC to have choices, not be locked into a particular launcher... especially one as shitty, unstable and insecure as Epic.  Just because a list is made by someone who is not security minded and values 2FA the way I do doesn't make it less valid... 








From a dev and publisher point of view, there is a lot that steam does for that 30%
Like the advertising, distribution and storage forever, customer support, forums, they let you run the game how you want.
Is 30% too much?  Perhaps, that is something to negotiate, not to leverage advertisement and then lock exclusivity.  I am not against a new store front, I am against Exclusives.
Like I said, plenty of titles I do not play because of them being locked inside Uplay...


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 3, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> Except again ignoring the back peddling THQ already said that this was a 4a decision
> 
> so here is what I imagined   happened
> 
> ...


Exactly. I’ve been saying all along that THQ are the scumlords. Devs almost never have control of distribution. Koch Media is not 4A.  They are another publisher layer.  THQ has decided to throw the dev under the bus here instead of taking responsibility. It’s too bad more people can’t blame the proper organization.



Patriot said:


> You may not care about anything other than playing single player because you have no friends... but in reality they are wanted features


Only an insecure person who needs masses of “friends” (yeah, we both know they aren’t actual friends) to feel good, would accuse someone who happens to like single player games of only liking them because they have no friends.  It was totally uncalled for.

People who like single player love the story and worlds created, and want to see it play out, to be entertained.  SP games are in the same category as literature and movies, most of which have great stories, in which they want to see it played out.


----------



## OneMoar (Feb 3, 2019)

Patriot said:


> Dev and you are delirious.
> I am not giving my money and information to Epic so that it can get stolen or sold.  In the short time they have had their excuse for a store open they have already had 2 security breaches.
> I would love to play the game, but I won't be paying for it till it comes to GOG or Steam.  AND yes there is plenty of people who no longer play certain games because of Uplay.
> 
> ...


ALL OF THIS
30% is peanuts for the service you get

I get unauthorised login attempts for my epic account at least once a month they didn't even have 2fa for over a year 

also the only reason epic can afford to have a pricing war is dat forkknife money when that runs out the percent will go up


----------



## Metroid (Feb 3, 2019)

Well for me if i was a developer I would do a multi-platform game as I would more people to know about it, exclusivity is only good if you make your own console like Nintendo and I would like Nintendo to terminate its console business altogether and start behaving like sega, imagine Metroid/Zelda games for pc, its games would be many times more successful/profitable if they launch for pc.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 3, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Only an insecure person who needs masses of “friends” (yeah, we both know they aren’t actual friends) to feel good, would accuse someone who happens to like single player games of only liking them because they have no friends. It was totally uncalled for.



This thread is the reason I gravitate towards single player games now.


----------



## somethinggeneric (Feb 3, 2019)

Nice clickbait, did you "forget" to include what the developer said (in English), or would this undermine your low quality article? Here's what was said:

I watched the bubbling. Impressions are twofold. On the one hand, the withdrawal from Steam is ambiguous, so no one has done so sharply (as far as I can tell). This is new, which could cause rejection. Yes, and such a move pulls the need to install the Epic launcher, which could cause some inconvenience to the players, and therefore cause discontent.​On the other hand, the reaction of a certain category of players is hardly adequate. It seems that people did not want to play, just waited for a reason to pour out their bile. That is, it turns out that we (the developers) for years have been hard and painful, with losses, trying to do something special, but a certain category of players believes that our work is not worth even a couple of minutes to install the launcher. Naturally, it is their life and their right, but then what do they care about Metro? Obviously, it is not interesting to them. I can only say that they were not our players either, they are not interested in our work, which means that, for example, the opinion of such people is not interesting for me either. What is the point for me personally (and not only) to listen to their opinion?​But! Consider the situation deeper. Someone says that if they crap Exodus and the previous games in the series, it will make the world better, they will put greedy developers in their place. To this, I can answer that in a pinch, if all the PC players announce a boycott of Metro Exodus, then the next Metro, if it does, is definitely not going to be on the PC. Better or worse, decide for yourself. I personally feel sorry for the loyal fans, yes. But my assessment of the work done personally by me and my friends and colleagues will not change this. I firmly know that almost everyone who pours this dirt on the net is also incapable of a bit of what we have done and hopefully do more. And that means they have no idea what they are talking about.​And further. Despite the fact that during the development I went through each level of each game, hell knows how many times, it is interesting for me to play Metro. I went through the previous parts completely and more than once, and now I am going to go through the whole PC version, to which we make the final touches. For me, this is already a tradition, I always replay the game completely before release. It allows you to evaluate the work done. What is it for me? I remember the words of the Prof, which I have heard more than once, both from myself and on the Internet – the game must be made for myself, so that you like it first. And only now do I begin to understand this fully – no clever man can shake me about the value of the work that we have done. And there will always be disgruntled.​
Source in English: https://wccftech.com/boycott-metro-exodus-next-wont-be-pc/


----------



## birdie (Feb 3, 2019)

somethinggeneric said:


> Nice clickbait, did you "forget" to include what the developer said (in English), or would this undermine your low quality article? Here's what was said:
> 
> ...
> 
> Source in English: https://wccftech.com/boycott-metro-exodus-next-wont-be-pc/



There's no source in English, the original post was in Russian. Mind that I translated it earlier and WCCFTech translation looks like to be loosely based on mine - they even copied my round brackets verbatim, lol.


----------



## TheOne (Feb 3, 2019)

https://www.pcgamer.com/metro-publi...ture-of-series-following-boycott-controversy/

The developer apparently says that "a PC version will always be at the heart of our plans".


----------



## somethinggeneric (Feb 3, 2019)

birdie said:


> There's no source in English, the original post was in Russian. Mind that I translated it earlier and WCCFTech translation looks like to be loosely based on mine - they even copied my round brackets verbatim, lol.


Source seems to be a loose word for this, its just Google translated and WccfTech just cleaned up things like that it seems. Below is a google translate of the original post on the forums, notice "stim" instead of Steam,  Really like your version though since you caught the little things that Google translate doesn't. Hopefully they update the article with your translation!


> I watched the bubbling. Impressions are twofold. On the one hand, the withdrawal from the *stim *is ambiguous, so no one has done so sharply (as far as I can tell). This is new, which could cause rejection. Yes, and such a move pulls the need to install an epic launcher, which could cause some inconvenience to the players, and therefore cause discontent.
> 
> On the other hand, the reaction of a certain category of players (*onli *torrents and all that) is hardly adequate. It seems that people did not want to play, just waited for a reason to pour out their bile. That is, it turns out that we (the developers) for years have been hard and painful, with losses, trying to do something special, but a certain category of players believes that our work is not worth even a couple of minutes to install the launcher. Naturally, it is their life and their right, but then what do they care about the Metro? Obviously, it is not interesting to them. I can only say that they were not our players either, they are not interested in our work, which means that, for example, the opinion of such people is not interesting for me either. What is the point for me personally (and not only) to listen to their opinion?
> 
> ...


----------



## Upgrayedd (Feb 3, 2019)

Review bombing is a joke


----------



## B-Real (Feb 3, 2019)

The same happens with Blizzard. In the past few years, a bunch of idiots defiled the Interet.  I just can't understand what drives them to such pathetic behaviour. And Steam is just as pathetic as these idiot Internet trolls are, as it lets these negative reviews stay there.


----------



## Upgrayedd (Feb 3, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> ALL OF THIS
> 30% is peanuts
> 
> also the only reason epic can afford to have a pricing war is dat forkknife money when that runs out the percent will go up


What about Valve and Dota2 and CSGO. What happens if THEY stop making money? Raise rates higher than 30%? Valve makes truckloads off those games.


----------



## TheDeeGee (Feb 3, 2019)

I don't recall having this issue back in the day with hard copies... Worked fine without having the need for a platform.


----------



## somethinggeneric (Feb 3, 2019)

TheDeeGee said:


> I don't recall having this issue back in the day with hard copies... Worked fine without having the need for a platform.


True, but I personally like the advantages such as the Workshop, discussion boards, easy patching methods, and being able to download the game again. When I was a wee lad, I think I bought Age of Empires about 3 times because I kept losing the CD Key and you couldn't install the game without it.


----------



## VSG (Feb 3, 2019)

birdie said:


> There's no source in English, the original post was in Russian. Mind that I translated it earlier and WCCFTech translation looks like to be loosely based on mine - they even copied my round brackets verbatim, lol.



There was an issue on our end preventing a timely update to the post with your translation, and it has been fixed now. I have now updated the post accordingly, and thanks again for your help with the translation.


----------



## somethinggeneric (Feb 3, 2019)

VSG said:


> There was an issue on our end preventing a timely update to the post with your translation, and it has been fixed now. I have now updated the post accordingly, and thanks again for your help with the translation.


Wow, article updated, color me impressed and with a bit more faith in humanity. Though their quote doesn't mention boycotting PC games, rather, seems to point to the obvious fact that if PC gamers shit on their game and don't buy it, they won't release for PC, which makes sense.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2019)

Patriot said:


> You may not care about anything other than playing single player because you have no friends... but in reality they are wanted features.


I'd respond, but what I was thinking has already been said..


rtwjunkie said:


> Only an insecure person who needs masses of “friends” (yeah, we both know they aren’t actual friends) to feel good, would accuse someone who happens to like single player games of only liking them because they have no friends. It was totally uncalled for.


Have to agree here. Very uncalled for. Though I have to say the graph is kinda cool. And it seems mostly accurate.


----------



## Cavernoso (Feb 3, 2019)

heheheheh Exodus Pirate


----------



## Razrback16 (Feb 3, 2019)

cdawall said:


> If all of the companies producing games could stop being dumb that would be great.
> 
> As a whole I am tired of having to install everyone and their brothers launcher. If everyone wants their own launcher go back another step and let me just launch the game. Skip the launcher. Why there has to be another layer of frivolous software on my pc I don't understand.
> 
> ...



Ya that's pretty much where I come down as well on this. +1


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 3, 2019)

Patriot said:


> Like the advertising...


Steam was good about that before 2015.  Since they invited all of the Unity asset swap garbage on their platform, there's a whole lot of noise and very little in the way of solid advertising.  Let's look at what 90% of your developers actually care about...
1) Regional pricing if your game has lots of localizations.
2) Online gaming because running your own servers sucks.
3) Early Access if your game is not completely funded.
4) How much money the distribution platform keeps per sale (chart doesn't include this and it's a make or break thing).

Niche things developers may care about:
5) Marketplace/Microtransactions for additional revenue stream at low cost.
6) VR support if the developer is making VR games.

The rest is work for them or doesn't affect them in a meaningful way.



Patriot said:


> I am not against a new store front, I am against Exclusives.


If you look at what Tim Sweeney said, it is very possible that Metro Exodus wouldn't even exist without Epic Games committing monies to help develop, market, and publish it.  If there is, in fact, an exclusivity agreement between Epic Games and A4 Games, then Epic Games is more than a distributor (like Steam), it's a publisher too.  Think of Metro Exodus like Unravel for Origin/EA.  Independent games that are published by a larger company and a requirement for that is exclusivity to the Origin/EA market on PC.

Here's a VERY important quote from Tim Sweeney:


> The proliferation of launchers is an annoying side effect of this, but the problem could eventually be solved through federated or decentralized software update tools. There are ongoing conversations about this.


I have been advocating this for years and it's something blockchain technology can make possible.  There needs to be an open infrastructure for game distribution which all distributors participate in (build servers and add them to the network, get paid for servicing users on the network).  The entire network acknowledges your right to software and so long as there as at least one participating, it will be honored.  If Sweeney is on the verge of making this a reality then more power to him.

Epic Games Store is relatively young and perhaps it is just a stop gap measure...but that's going off topic.


Point is, the relationship between Metro Exodus and Epic Games is likely more complex than it appears on the surface.  If Metro Exodus is contractually exclusively, it was a mutually agreed to thing.  If you don't like it, wait until the contract expires and buy it where you want.  If you don't mind then support A4 Games and Epic Games in their pursuit of cheaper, better games.  The store should only be a temporary inconvenience.


----------



## Nkd (Feb 4, 2019)

I understand the outrage but man I have steam too and I don't understand this hate for games that are not going to steam. I mean it just proves you love steam more than you love the game. I would love for everything to be on steam but I also understand the monopoly they have over everything. So I don't mind at all and people need to keep calm heads when it comes to this. This steam or nothing mentality makes no sense.

Heck, I can pretty much bet that steam probably makes way higher margins and less money back in developer's pocket. We should all be for developers making their money back so they can invest more back. Bash me for it, I love steam but I will never be boycotting shit because I play games because of the game not because I am a steam fanboy. People should be pissed if they already purchased and they lost their right to play on steam. Which doesnt seem to be the issue here. Just cuz you can't buy it on steam? common!

Bash me all you want but this love for steam is pure nonsense. Developers need to make money too and I can bet they are glad for EPIC fighting steam. Don't understand this mad love for steam lol. Don't buy that is your right but steam isn't entitled to every game. Its like if its not on amazon I am not going to buy it. Dumb!


----------



## Minus Infinity (Feb 4, 2019)

I'd be more sympathetic if EA were actually trying to give STEAM real competition and thus helping improve STEAM as well. Competition is good for consumers and businesses. This is just EA trying to undercut STEAM but in no way improve the model. Consumers will lose out in the end. Metro should have been on both services and let the market decide where they want to purchase the game. You can't say it's coming to STEAM and take pre-orders and then screw people over because you found a better deal. If they had never announced it was coming to STEAM in the first place they wouldn't be in this shit storm. I won't be using EA's store ever.


----------



## Nkd (Feb 4, 2019)

Minus Infinity said:


> I'd be more sympathetic if EA were actually trying to give STEAM real competition and thus helping improve STEAM as well. Competition is good for consumers and businesses. This is just EA trying to undercut STEAM but in no way improve the model. Consumers will lose out in the end. Metro should have been on both services and let the market decide where they want to purchase the game. You can't say it's coming to STEAM and take pre-orders and then screw people over because you found a better deal. If they had never announced it was coming to STEAM in the first place they wouldn't be in this shit storm. I won't be using EA's store ever.



But those people with preorder get to keep their game on steam so how did they get screwed over though? Also, the game will be $10 cheaper on EPIC store as a result of 88/12 split. So they are passing on the savings to consumers. As always people will bitch and steam is crying because they lost their margins. Maybe steam should lower their fees as well. I will never blame the developer for wanting more money back, so they can invest more in the future. Steam has a monopoly and lets be real about it. If you play a game because of the game no one should be boycotting shit. If you preordered on steam you get to keep the game on steam and you will get all updates through steam.

I'll take the dollar 10 discount over my love for steam. lol.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Feb 4, 2019)

The reason ppl don't want to take 2 minutes to install another game launcher is because* IT'S ANOTHER GAME INSTALLER *that none of us want.

We already have steam, Uplay, origin and now epics'? No thanks.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Feb 4, 2019)

Good. Let them leave. If their response to customers calling them out on anti-consumer actions is to whine like entitled babies, then they deserve to stay on consoles. Metro is primarily a PC franchise, much like crysis was. Forcing your customer to go through a single storefront to consume your product is inherently anti consumer and anti-competition. I dont give EA or ubisoft a break for forcing uplay and origin on us, 4A doesnt get a break either. And if they want to act like us gamers should be GRATEFUL that they bother to publish their games on PC at all, and tell people "support us or we will leave", then screw them. They can keep that kind of abusive, entitled corporate attitude. 

I say let them leave, and let the door hit them on the way out. Other developers can fill in the gap they provide, and when their sales take a massive hit and they come crawling back, we can laugh in their faces for being complete dunderheads.


----------



## Capitan Harlock (Feb 4, 2019)

Nkd said:


> 'll take the dollar 10 discount over my love for steam. lol.


The 10$ discount is only for US not Europe so nope is dickery .
All this situation don't make any sense and is all Koch Media fault in the first place.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 4, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> The reason ppl don't want to take 2 minutes to install another game launcher is because* IT'S ANOTHER GAME INSTALLER *that none of us want.


Remember when games were shipped on disks?  Virtually every game had its own dedicated installer and launcher.  There was no management other than shortcuts spammed in the Start Menu and on the Desktop.  Microsoft tried to rectify that with the Game Explorer introduced in Vista.  The ecosystem today, even with more competitors launching their own storefronts, is mild compared to what it was.

Monopolies are terrible.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 4, 2019)

Capitan Harlock said:


> All this situation don't make any sense and is all Koch Media fault in the first place.


Exactly, Koch and THQ Nordic.  These decisions are made by publishers.  Everybody blaming 4A needs to just stop.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Feb 4, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Exactly, Koch and THQ Nordic.  These decisions are made by publishers.  Everybody blaming 4A needs to just stop.


4A studios chose to partner with THQ nordic. They chose to enlist themselves with greedy publishers. They deserve just as much blame for joining with publishers as publishers deserve for pushing these ideas.

In this era of digital distribution, there is 0 reason to partner with publishers unless you want a physical release, and then it should ONLY be for the physical release. Digital releases have 0 reason to use a publisher.

If you join a gang then get shot by a rival gang, you are just as much at fault for joining the gang in the first place as the the other gang is at fault for shooting you. Same thing applies here. 4A made their bed, one of 4As DEVELOPERS is talking about this boycott, not THQ or Koch, they absolutely deserve this backlash. There is 0 reason to use publishers in the digital age other then greed/laziness. 



FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember when games were shipped on disks?  Virtually every game had its own dedicated installer and launcher.  There was no management other than shortcuts spammed in the Start Menu and on the Desktop.  Microsoft tried to rectify that with the Game Explorer introduced in Vista.  The ecosystem today, even with more competitors launching their own storefronts, is mild compared to what it was.
> 
> Monopolies are terrible.


Remember when Steam became popular because you didnt need to create logons for tons of other developers and deal with different launchers?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 4, 2019)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> 4A studios chose to partner with THQ nordic. They chose to enlist themselves with greedy publishers. They deserve just as much blame for joining with publishers as publishers deserve for pushing these ideas.


You really are clueless. It wasn’t just yesterday they “joined up” with THQ and Koch.  They have been with them for awhile.  Developers have almost no voice in anything.  Most of them work like slaves.  You blaming 4A for joining THQ is like me blaming you if one day your employer suddenly turns into this evil agency intent on causing world chaos. It makes no sense.

I know it is tough for you to process, but the 4A employee is merely laying out the facts of what will happen. Their publisher who they are under contract with will not give them money for a future PC game.  That’s all he is saying.


----------



## Naito (Feb 4, 2019)

I've already got Steam, Origin, UPlay, Galaxy, Rockstar Social, Windows Store/Xbox Live and battle.net, so what's one more eh?


----------



## timta2 (Feb 4, 2019)

Before I got to the last paragraph I was thinking "this isn't the developer", starting with the weird rant about pirates, considering it's not out yet, and then he goes on about how much he's played those games? That's really odd and he sounds like a fan masquerading as a developer.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Feb 4, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> The reason ppl don't want to take 2 minutes to install another game launcher is because* IT'S ANOTHER GAME INSTALLER *that *none of us want.*
> 
> We already have steam, Uplay, origin and now epics'? No thanks.


us? you got a frogger in your pocket? Speak for yourself. I dont mind, but I'm a Gamer at Heart. I buy a game not a launcher.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember when games were shipped on disks?  Virtually every game had its own dedicated installer and launcher.  There was no management other than shortcuts spammed in the Start Menu and on the Desktop.  Microsoft tried to rectify that with the Game Explorer introduced in Vista.  The ecosystem today, even with more competitors launching their own storefronts, is mild compared to what it was.
> 
> Monopolies are terrible.


Omg, each game installed an installer when there was no "standard" from MS, think win95/8.



timta2 said:


> Before I got to the last paragraph I was thinking "this isn't the developer", starting with the weird rant about pirates, considering it's not out yet, and then he goes on about how much he's played those games? That's really odd and he sounds like a fan masquerading as a developer.


a lot of developers are avid gamers.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 4, 2019)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Remember when Steam became popular because you didnt need to create logons for tons of other developers and deal with different launchers?


Steam became popular because of the sales.  Coincidentally, fantastic sales ended circa 2014 too.  Mind you, that's not Valve's fault.  It was publishers themselves getting a little too carried away with big Steam Sale events.  They cut prices on products more than they should have because they got swept away in the hype.  Once they learned that Steam Sale events actually wipe out most of their potential sales, they now take it slow (10% -> 33% -> 50% -> drop MSRP $10 -> 50% -> drop MSRP $10  -> 50% -> etc.).  Games usually take years to reach $15 now unless they bombed (like MEA) where during the hype time it happened in 6-12 months.

Because publishers are wise to how digital sales work now, no competitor can gain the edge that Steam did in those few years when publishers were trying to figure the market out.


And remember, Steam has a thousands of thousands of exclusives.  The fact there is so much stink over a publisher doing a time exclusive on Epic Games Store shows how much mindshare Steam has.  Just keep in mind that developers and publishers aren't very happy with Valve and haven't been for a long time because Steam is crowded now.  It's hard to stand out without spending millions in mainstream marketing.  Origin exists because EA doesn't want to give 30% of their revenue to Valve.  For what? Running a few servers?  AAA games cost millions to make, millions to market, and are pennies to digital distribute.  Valve should have seen the defections coming from mile away.  Ubisoft didn't abandon Steam completely because they feel the exposure outweighs the cost.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2019)

SystemMechanic said:


> I will be staying away from this Dev and Publisher. No way to treat your fans. MAy be put it back on Steam store if you dont want ppl protesting, which is only be done by not buying it or review bombing.



Review bombing is never justified.  You are being asked to review the content of the game, not the publisher.

Bleh, that's utopian thinking and I know it, but it's still true.



rtwjunkie said:


> Let’s everyone take a step back and realize nothing has advanced beyond what we already knew prior to today.  We know after last week’s announcement that no more Steam preorders would be available, and the sales from that point forward are on Epic.  We know that THQ and Steam both said that all Steam preorders would be honored and totally supported in the Steam community and platform.
> 
> What we don’t know for sure is if this statement was by the dev company, or by a loose cannon employee, or just someone spouting off.  We also don’t know, as one of our members asserted here, that any Steam keys sold must go through the Epic launcher.
> 
> So let’s relax until we know facts.



Thank god someone's marbles ain't loose in this whole fiasco.



btarunr said:


> A console-exclusive AAA FPS?



You say that like it's a new idea or something...


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 4, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If you don't like it, wait until the contract expires and buy it where you want.



What, you mean this game will be available elsewhere?  And I don't have to install the Epic Launcher?

*POOF*  Mind blown.....


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 4, 2019)

'Metro Exodus' will be an Epic Games Store *exclusive for a year*
Pre-orders on Steam will be honored but the game won't be on the platform until 2020.


Wouldn't be surprised if it is on GOG too at that point seeing how the other Metro games are.


----------



## Tsukiyomi91 (Feb 4, 2019)

All I have to say is 4A Games/Deep Silver has lost a ton of current customers on top of new, potential customers who has yet to play the previous Metro games. Pulling a last minute changes shows how much of a dick they are.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if it is on GOG too at that point seeing how the other Metro games are.


And a bunch of people will be waiting for that.


----------



## Arumio (Feb 4, 2019)

meanwhile bad promotion is still promotion
the more we talk, the more audience gat to know about "metro"


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2019)

Arumio said:


> meanwhile bad promotion is still promotion
> the more we talk, the more audience gat to know about "metro"


You'd think that, but people are tired of drama and BS. In this case "bad promotion" is still bad, just like Fallout '76. Sales tanked once the news about how bad it was started making the rounds.


----------



## bajs11 (Feb 4, 2019)

well people here in the West should be boycotting Russian products after their attempts to manipulate elections in several western countries
so yeah no more Metro games for me at least


----------



## sepheronx (Feb 4, 2019)

bajs11 said:


> well people here in the West should be boycotting Russian products after their attempts to manipulate elections in several western countries
> so yeah no more Metro games for me at least



This must be a joke.

The whole Russiagate thing is a huge joke to begin with.

And let me remind you how US attempts, attempted and even worked on Russian elections back in 1996.  Or how about Venezuela now?

So that is the most stupid excuse I have heard.

Maybe it hasn't also occurred to you yet that A4 games isn't in Russia, eh?


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're going out of context again. Comparing apples to oranges mean anything to you?



No not really. There are lots of commercial things you dont control and have to live with, and yet, you dont see this kind if outrage over essentially minor things elsewhere. What you see is people vote with their wallet. I have yet to see that here. I think its much ado about nothing.



OneMoar said:


> except epic is playing dirty there not interested in giving developers a piece of the pie
> 
> here is how this is gonna go for the people that don't get it
> 
> ...



And lord Gaben is any different? Where's that HL3 at, by the way? Oh yeah... Steam was enough of a cash cow, it was too much effort for him as he was swimming in money from a 30% cut. 

....


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2019)

bajs11 said:


> well people here in the West should be boycotting Russian products after their attempts to manipulate elections in several western countries


Let's keep unproven politics out of this.


bajs11 said:


> so yeah no more Metro games for me at least


And there's a choice. It has nothing to do with the topic, but it does show someone voting with their wallet.


Vayra86 said:


> No not really.


Yes, really.


Vayra86 said:


> What you see is people vote with their wallet.


Then you're not paying attention.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Let's keep unproven politics out of this.
> 
> And there's a choice. It has nothing to do with the topic, but it does show someone voting with their wallet.
> 
> ...



Got numbers? All I see is noise. We know from experience its not going to go that fast after all. Otherwise a lot of other items would have turned out quite differently as well.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Got numbers? All I see is noise.


How about the people in this thread?


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 4, 2019)

Minus Infinity said:


> I'd be more sympathetic if EA were actually trying to give STEAM real competition and thus helping improve STEAM as well. Competition is good for consumers and businesses. This is just EA trying to undercut STEAM but in no way improve the model. Consumers will lose out in the end. Metro should have been on both services and let the market decide where they want to purchase the game. You can't say it's coming to STEAM and take pre-orders and then screw people over because you found a better deal. If they had never announced it was coming to STEAM in the first place they wouldn't be in this shit storm. I won't be using EA's store ever.



This isnt about EA. 



lexluthermiester said:


> How about the people in this thread?



That is noise, not a sales number. I think a lot of people here are not quite as strict as they say they are. Same as Reddit et al. Thats why its called vocal minority. Those same people that already have five launchers installed.. so much for principles ey


----------



## Manu_PT (Feb 4, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> It's not about the platform -- it's about exclusivity.  The whole " you can ONLY buy it here" that EA, EPIC and others are trying to push.
> 
> Just because a Chinese company threw some money at these guys now the gamers who bought it from steam HAVE to download epic game launcher and HAVE to use the EPIC launcher which already got hacked twice.
> 
> ...



PC gamers are such cry babies, unbelievable. I bet they would still make loads of money with console only versions. You guys are toxic as f but in the end you´re all playing counter strike or dota.


----------



## Shambles1980 (Feb 4, 2019)

they wont boycott pc.
gamers wont boycott the game though some may wait for it to come out on steam. 
personally im happy just to wait for it it to come out on steam..
yes you can argue "whats an extra installer." but i have amazon prime which gives me free games with twitch. I don't use that launcher even for free games. 

Most of my games are on steam, and i dont plan to use a diferent launcher to add to the mix anytime soon. So i understand why people are angry given they did state it would be on steam at launch then changed their mind.  

Now i understand steam charges quite a bit more for devs/publishers and so steam needs to make things better for them.
But that's not my problem. epic may be making guarantees of sales figures which they will cover if sales are not hit to try and get more publishers to use them exclusively (think that's anti competitive to be honest but im not a laywer, and havent seen any actual contracts or the wording in them) Again not my problem.

now i am a consumer  and i don't want more launchers. i stoped using origin, and the blizzard one i also never used the uplay one, and the Bethesda one can go whistle hell i dont even have the windows store on my windows 10 and i dont use the twitch one which has lots of free games. 
The only launcher i allow to start is steam, so that is my problem. and im happy with it, if they want me to buy their game it needs to come on steam.

Review bombing is a bit shitty to be fair, but it has become a way for people to voice their displeasure with publishers/devs choices. I genuinly dont agree with it but given pc gamer boycots just dont work because gamers want to game so they buy the game any way then this is what happens. 

so for me it either comes out on steam where i have all my games or it does not.
I will even buy games on steam i already have for free on twitch because its easier for me.
there is a reason why I tunes became so massive and combated so much of music piracy, "it was a single easy to access platform" if you start spliting things up in to other needed launchers making the process of getting the game harder or more annoying then people will just find other means. 

Epic does have one thing going for it though.  it has pretty much every teen gamer already in their pocket due to fortnight. (a free game i only played like 3-4 times because well its an extra launcher and it genuinly inst that good) but they do have it so thats a massive player base they have there.. 

IMO
ball is in steams court. And im not changing from steam unless epic will port all my steam games to the epic launcher for free.


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## Valantar (Feb 4, 2019)

I have to applaud any effort to break up Steam's de facto monopoly, frankly. Even if their competitor is an industry giant like Epic - it's not like Valve is an underdog, after all. Would I much rather that a smaller competitor like GOG make it big? Sure, absolutely. But a duopoly is still better than a monopoly, and at least Epic has the clout to actually make a dent in Steam's dominance. Gamers ought to be thankful for any and all efforts to diversify this market. While the timing of this is absolutely an issue, it's not like they're refusing to honor Steam pre-orders or barring people ordering on Steam from getting DLC or anything like that. And I would be _shocked_ if this affected multiplayer in any way.

As for this post, I think it's entirely reasonable. Why on earth should gamers care what installer/launcher they use? As long as it doesn't lack crucial features or have an egregious EULA, I don't see any issues with having more than one, even if there is a slight inconvenience in having a bunch of launchers - that's better than a monopoly. And if people attack the developer, including their previous work, for such a spurious and nonsensical reason as this, well, I wouldn't be surprised if the developer chose not to focus their efforts on serving this audience the next time around. Why would they, if all they're going to get is abuse for reasons that don't relate to the actual game itself? The way I read this, it's not at all a threat, but a reasonably measured response to an absurd and offensive situation.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> That is noise, not a sales number. I think a lot of people here are not quite as strict as they say they are. Same as Reddit et al. Thats why its called vocal minority. Those same people that already have five launchers installed.. so much for principles ey


Or people actually do what they say. Example, I have one installed client; Steam. But I buy most of my game titles on GOG. I rarely use Steam.

While I try out all the other client platforms, it is done only to see what they're like and how they work so that I can render an informed opinion. Having said that, beyond the scope of being inquisitive, they were swiftly deleted from my test system. Most people don't go to those measures and just don't use what they don't like regardless of how good a game is.



Valantar said:


> Would I much rather that a smaller competitor like GOG make it big? Sure, absolutely.


Completely agree!


Valantar said:


> even if there is a slight inconvenience in having a bunch of launchers


That all start with your system when it boots up and stay running in the background. That's a bit more than a "slight inconvenience" as it can kill system resources.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 4, 2019)

bajs11 said:


> well people here in the West should be boycotting Russian products after their attempts to manipulate elections in several western countries
> so yeah no more Metro games for me at least


Except 4A isn’t Russian.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

If that's a real Metro developer posting there, there is a point about gamers being lazy for a 2 minutes store install. Average non-computer savvy gamers are notorious for being very sissy-like, a lot of people I knew and played PC games with back in the old young days I had to constantly bother with very super lazy people who were not lazy in real life, they just took everything on a computer as a BIG TIRING CHORE. I used to install 5 games and 10 programs and do all kinds of stuff on a PC while some of my friends barely had the patience to install one game or make an account, so these slow boring slobs are absolutely REAL out there, and it's mostly children who probably eat sugary snacks and fast food all day makes their brain rot out, no wonder.

However, here's the reflection, the fans decision to reviewbomb and boycott is as ridicolous as the publisher's decision to abruptly switch to store exclusivity, so in a sense they were asking for it, made a stupid decision and got a stupid response, especially as it already was being pre-sold on Steam. This decision was infact absolutely insane from a customer point of view, it would make it far more understandable if the decision was made prior the game started selling on Steam, ofcourse technically there was no deal with Steam violated, so in some way it's somehow justified to have an insane response, an eye for an eye I guess, even tho I do not promote it.

What the gamers should do is to basically demand from EPIC to get support and continue work on the store before launch, voice the opinion on Epic forums to get things done and provide feedback, it has barely launched, gamers are also notorious for having little idea of how software is developed and the logistics around that, it's not a small deal to run a digital game store, steam didn't release fully featured, blizzard battle net didn't relase fully featured.

The announcement could have been that the next game would move to Epic Store, or that DLC would only be on Epic Store. This is some kind of weird greed that, who the heck is running THQ Nordic or Deep Silver, the acquisition of Deep Silver is also fishy, wasn't Deep Silver who bought Metro IP from the defunct and supposably dead THQ ?!?! I was deeply following that story.

Now I figured it out myself, THQ Nordic is a completely different company that bought the dead THQ brand/trandemark, it should be noted in an update or something.


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## ne6togadno (Feb 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That all start with your system when it boots up and stay running in the background. That's a bit more than a "slight inconvenience" as it can kill system resources.


invalid argument.
steam, origin, upaly, gog galaxy, battlent launcher (havent tried epic launcher yet) all have the option "start when pc start" that can be disabled. in fact this is first thing that is turned off when i install all those launchers and no launcher is alowed to reside on my pc if this option cannot be turned off (valid also for music/video players, tramspeack, discord and all other tones of softwere "require" to run on your pc all the time).
it is me who deside what start when how long it stay running and when it is closed.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Except 4A isn’t Russian.




Well actually that's technically right but it may be only on paper today, if we were going into that stuff deeply just so you guys don't forget that the whole area is mixed good around there, by actual population Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian (and official now), most of south and east today's Ukraine is mostly Russian people, so it's a *huge* gray area, many of the devs might have family in today's Russia, they may be living in more than 1 place even, my schoolmate who was Ukrainian but had half the family in Russia, so they're traveling back and forth constantly over there.

Lastly, Kiev was a capital city of what was supposably a precursor to the precursors of Russia like over 1000 years ago, the Kievan Rus'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'
So there you go.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Feb 4, 2019)

ne6togadno said:


> invalid argument.
> steam, origin, upaly, gog galaxy, battlent launcher (havent tried epic launcher yet) all have the option "start when pc start" that can be disabled. in fact this is first thing that is turned off when i install all those launchers and no launcher is alowed to reside on my pc if this option cannot be turned off (valid also for music/video players, tramspeack, discord and all other tones of softwere "require" to run on your pc all the time).
> it is me who deside what start when how long it stay running and when it is closed.


I am the same, nothing launches with windows, but I use my desktop for other things besides games and during those times I cant have a game launcher running.


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## Valantar (Feb 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That all start with your system when it boots up and stay running in the background. That's a bit more than a "slight inconvenience" as it can kill system resources.


I have a 6c12t CPU and 16GB of RAM. I've never seen RAM usage above 12 GB except when I'm using Adobe Premiere. Even though the Windows scheduler is rather poor, I don't think this'll cause any slowdown to speak of. Sure, it's likely measurable even on systems with this high a core count, but noticeable? I doubt it.

Personally, I only let Steam start when my PC starts, as that's my most used launcher (no wonder, seeing how I've been using it more or less since launch), but I have GOG Galaxy, Origin, Uplay, and recently also the Epic launcher installed, and use them when wanted/needed. The only inconvenience/annoyance is the need to update launchers when it's been a while since I've used them.



RuskiSnajper said:


> Well actually that's technically right but it may be only on paper today, if we were going into that stuff deeply just so you guys don't forget that the whole area is mixed good around there, by actual population Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian (and official now), most of south and east today's Ukraine is mostly Russian people, so it's a *huge* gray area, many of the devs might have family in today's Russia, they may be living in more than 1 place even, my schoolmate who was Ukrainian but had half the family in Russia, so they're traveling back and forth constantly over there.
> 
> Lastly, Kiev was a capital city of what was supposably a precursor to the precursors of Russia like over 1000 years ago, the Kievan Rus'
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'
> So there you go.


Just like the border between Germany and Poland is largely illusory, as is the German-French border, etc., etc.. Where ever there are borders that aren't drawn along natural barriers to migration, people have moved across, back and forth, as long as there have been people there to do so. That's humanity for you. As such, claiming that "Crimea is really Russian" or "Ukraine is really Russian" is an absurd claim, as neither of those current countries/areas are the same as whatever previous entity might have occupied/claimed those lands previously. That's just selective reading of history. If anything, the Kievan Rus' being centered around Kiev does kind of underscore how the Russia of today is a modern construct, no? Pretty much all countries are.

Tl;dr: nation states are largely arbitrary constructs that have ever less value in a modern, connected, global society, and clinging to outdated and illusory ideas of nationalism is harmful to everyone involved. Please stop.


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## BorgOvermind (Feb 4, 2019)

Sad to see that various arguments lead to the result of games going away from PC.

P.S. Crimea status is irrelevant since Ukraine came to existence out of nothing. Of course each side in a situation like this will quote only the part of the historic time-line that favors them, so I suggest such debates are left for other-than-tech boards.

*@Valantar - *Nation states are no more. They exist only on paper and are lead by th same world oppressors. Want to check if that's correct ? Try finding out how many countries still have independent banks. The answer is 3 and decreasing.


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## sepheronx (Feb 4, 2019)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Well actually that's technically right but it may be only on paper today, if we were going into that stuff deeply just so you guys don't forget that the whole area is mixed good around there, by actual population Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian (and official now), most of south and east today's Ukraine is mostly Russian people, so it's a *huge* gray area, many of the devs might have family in today's Russia, they may be living in more than 1 place even, my schoolmate who was Ukrainian but had half the family in Russia, so they're traveling back and forth constantly over there.
> 
> Lastly, Kiev was a capital city of what was supposably a precursor to the precursors of Russia like over 1000 years ago, the Kievan Rus'
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'
> So there you go.



While I applaud you for having knowledge of my people, A4 games is actually based not in Ukraine anymore.  It is in Malta.  They left because of 2014 coup.


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## Valantar (Feb 4, 2019)

BorgOvermind said:


> Sad to see that various arguments lead to the result of games going away from PC.
> 
> P.S. Crimea status is irrelevant since Ukraine came to existence out of nothing. Of course each side in a situation like this will quote only the part of the historic time-line that favors them, so I suggest such debates are left for other-than-tech boards.
> 
> *@Valantar - *Nation states are no more. They exist only on paper and are lead by th same world oppressors. Want to check if that's correct ? Try finding out how many countries still have independent banks. The answer is 3 and decreasing.


Well, a lot of their bad sides (xenophobia, war-mongering, etc.) still linger, but on the other hand, we've mostly only gotten the bad sides of supranational society too (largely thanks to nation states refusing to cede power to any official supragovernmental organization, so instead they cede power to global corporations where the people have _zero_ influence instead of some. Smart, that.). Global politics and governance is fun. Yay.

Back to the topic, though:


sepheronx said:


> While I applaud you for having knowledge of my people, A4 games is actually based not in Ukraine anymore.  It is in Malta.  They left because of 2014 coup.


They moved their HQ, but not the development team - their Kiev office is still the main development office. If they moved for political reasons, the notorious tax haven of Malta was an ... odd choice. Sure sounds like there might have been another motive behind that.


The more I read about this, the more I'm struck by the absurdity of people calling for boycotts of a developer not for limiting their game to one online store, but for limiting their game to one online store _that isn't their chosen one_. Principled? Not quite. At least they're not even trying to camouflage this as something more than sheer, blind fanboyism. Even if Steam is a good, feature-rich platform (it ought to be, after 15 years in development), people are quite blind to their own best interests if they're actually campaigning for games to always be on Steam. What has Valve done to deserve this good will? Are people actually claiming that Valve has done anything worthwhile with their massive hoard of wealth? 'Cause I can't see it - and thus they might do well with a kick in the shin, so to speak.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 4, 2019)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Well actually that's technically right but it may be only on paper today, if we were going into that stuff deeply just so you guys don't forget that the whole area is mixed good around there, by actual population Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian (and official now), most of south and east today's Ukraine is mostly Russian people, so it's a *huge* gray area, many of the devs might have family in today's Russia, they may be living in more than 1 place even, my schoolmate who was Ukrainian but had half the family in Russia, so they're traveling back and forth constantly over there.
> 
> Lastly, Kiev was a capital city of what was supposably a precursor to the precursors of Russia like over 1000 years ago, the Kievan Rus'
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'
> So there you go.


Yep, I was aware of that.  Just trying to keep it simple for him.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

Valantar said:


> As such, claiming that "Crimea is really Russian" is an absurd claim.
> 
> Tl;dr: nation states are largely arbitrary constructs that have ever less value in a modern, connected, global society, and clinging to outdated and illusory ideas of nationalism is harmful to everyone involved. Please stop.



You are misunderstanding the post. You should have read the first statement "if were were to dig into that nationality stuff deeply". You are technically correct but you are twisting it and putting it on me as if I was for one or the other. I'm explaining the reality currently in place and in practice and in history. However there are many more sides you can look at this.

Universally there is no ownership of anything, there's no inherency, but that's how it would be in the perfect world, but in practice every living thing on the planet has it's own corner and enforces ownership, and everyone would need to reach extremely high levels of understanding and philosophy close to achieveing some kind of enlightenment for all of them to live in peace without borders and move around freely, which very hard to achieve in practice with so many people and so many views and experiences in life as well as deep-rooted beliefs, it's just nearly impossible, so your apparently leftist ideas aren't correct because you would have to became the same that you are supposably fighting against, to do this impossible task you'll either have to mindcontrol or destroy everyone to make them "understand".

In the EU we're seeing the results of "unification", that it actually downgrates the value of individual cultures and morphs into one, everyone who tricked by the unification now calls themselfs "proud european", isn't this downward, isn't this backward, replacing 50x European difference and diverse cultures with just one? All this inclusiveness is actually destryoing the diversity they're claiming to be protecting.

That said, you seemed to go way out with the last paragraph, nobody in the universe has the right to decide for every only living being how they must live and in what conditions and dictate them they have to be "connected" and "global". I am obviously not promoting barbarism and nationalism in the conquest sense, where the group is greedy for more land and wants to take over more and more endlessly, there are MANY TYPES of nationalism and your first big mistake is putting them all in one bunch. Your supposable idea that borders are just "illusions of the past" is your own subjective opinion (or illusion) as well, you are not any more different, you have an idea or a vision which is not any less radical than the radical nationalism.

Here's an example: My house is my property, and I regard it as my property based on the work/effort/time I spent building it, it doesn't bother anyone nor do anyone harm, I decided that you are not allowed inside, I will enforce my ownership and rules with my life if necessary, that's the choice I made and I'm ready to live with the consequences, so now you have a choice to acknowledge/respect that decision and leave me alone, or you can try to enforce your idea of "_everyone should live with ethernet cord sticked up their butt_ _and have to smell 10 other feet in an inclusive bedroom every night_" but because I'm not a sissy that gets folled by the modern information and perception based warfare, I will not budge and the only way you would be able to get inside would be to destroy me. owever, if you leave me alone, most likely I will leave you alone too, so who's the one looking for a fight around here? That's pretty much the summary of whats happening in the world, sure there are some bad nationalist dictators, but many are being falsely accused and it's their right to defend themsefls.

You think you can take over a country/tribe/groupofpeople by just comparing one of their leaders with Hitler, you thought we would drop our pants that easy? Bwahaha

And I didn't want to debate this, I wanted to mention it only as a side thing. The last thing we need is anyone boycotting anything Russian or Ukrainian or Maltian around Metro Exodus. Who the heck even came up with the idea.


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## 64K (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm not going to boycott a Studio or Publisher over where they decide to put their game but I will wait a couple of years for Epic to prove that they will keep their site up and running well and that the store will be secure. I waited a couple of years before signing up for Steam and did the same for Origin. I don't really want yet another account but it is inevitable I guess that all of the big Publishers will do it. Bethesda will probably make the next Elder Scrolls exclusive to their site as well.

Edit: This review bombing stunt on Steam is why I don't bother reading reviews there or on Metacritic. Sometimes people slam a game for no good reason just because they have a grudge against the Developer or Publisher. There is no sensible reason at all to slam Metro 2033 or Last Light due to Exodus being exclusively on the Epic Store for a while. Those are both very good games imo. It's just childish to review bomb those 2 games for that reason.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Well, a lot of their bad sides (xenophobia, war-mongering, etc.) still linger, but on the other hand, we've mostly only gotten the bad sides of supranational society too (largely thanks to nation states refusing to cede power to any official supragovernmental organization, so instead they cede power to global corporations where the people have _zero_ influence instead of some. Smart, that.). Global politics and governance is fun. Yay.



Remember, if we all agree, when you are born you simply randomly show up with no inherent ownership of anything, there is none, you roam the natural world for search of resources to survive. Unless artificially provided (Royalty, Family, etc) there is none right.

So that same thing should go for these global organizations who are assuming they have control over everything else,* who the heck do they think they are they can dictate to tribes/groups/countries to "respect migration law"*. What law? It's not our law right? Unless we agree and sign it we aren't part of it, we don't have to respect it. It's like aliens came from another planet and told us to do this or that, so we're just going to pull pants down and surrender?

Remember independent countries/groups may be close together geographically, but if they have no treaties(contracts) between them, under the law (in this case no law exists between them) there is technically zero requrement for any acknowledgment between them to do as either one says, a country doesn't even have to acknowledge other one's existance/borders, they can just mark it as , not technically, it is only in good heart and good faith that you respect other entities/countries and acknowledge their existance, but there is no universal law that requires you to do that. The proximity/geolocation is just a coincidence, it's the same as if independent tribes/groups/countries were 100 light years apart on a different planet.

Same way goes for ..., there is no law in the universe made by nature that tells you that you have to provide house/food/water for any living being in need. You do it only from your good faith and good heart and only IF YOU HAVE A SURPLUS TO SPARE. Nobody has a right to DEMAND help and nobody has a duty/requirement to RESPECT that demand, help comes if it can, unfortunately it's random, it goes by luck, you and others being in the right place at the right time doing the right things, circumstances, and nobody has a right to dictate the circumstances for that to happen either.

But you can't just IMPOSE some made up vision on people that never agreed to be part of your idea. Which is correct, that's why they hiddenly get control of countries leaders to sign up to these treaties so that when people finally figure out what happend, they can give them the answer: "Well that's what your leaders signed up for 50 years ago."

And one big important point: Nobody has to respect UN/EU laws if they don't want to, nobody has to respect any laws of anyone else, if they don't both agree to each other, laws/treaties are form of contracts, if you're not a party to the contract it does not apply to you, we all understand that right, but in practice as I said with the "MY HOUSE" example, in practice the EU/NATO might destroy you if you don't do how they want, so here's my question: how is that TOLERANT ?!?!? And that's how you figure out they're just one more group out of many groups in the universe who are conquerors, but they cleverly use psychological operations, the "tolerance" trick and "help da children" guise for their domination.

There's nothing bad about being good to someone who's in need of assistance to survive, nobody's even against this, never was, it's just that this is being abused by bad guys who act as good guys, the genuine good guys NEED to figure this out. The imposters who are benefiting from all of this "free help" are all for the oppoite goal they're claiming to be, that's the ultimate problem the helpful group doesn't get, that they're being hugely fooled and exploited by these imposters.

Okay I made my point, back to Metro now.



> largely thanks to nation states refusing to cede power to any official supragovernmental organization



Yeah but they're not required to by any law in the universe. It's not their problem, only from your viewpoint. Legally you can't do much other than wage warfare, even if we all disagree with them and their practices, and that's the unfortunate reality of the universe, every kind is going to find a corner for themselfs and there is no one that is right, anyone that tries to enforce it's rules on everyone will become a tyrant.

One day some Aliens could come and promote themselfs as higher-level than the "supragovernmental organizations", from their point of view they would look at your quote and pretty much say the same you just said "_Well the problem is here that planet Earth just won't cede power to our solar dominion, these supragovernmental organizations are just so in deep in the illusory past_".

So you see this can go round and round forever, always someone more powerful, or importantly, someone acting more powerful, comes around and assumes control and starts propagating _"how this is bad how it's old we have to replace it bla bla bla"_. It can be correct, but it can equally be someone posing as fair who's using just another classic military trick.

If you think truly you are doing best you can and you think you can defend your property then you can simply say to the Aliens: KTHXBYE and watch the radar screens for any missile launches or laser blasts. Reality 101. Then it's all about information, you will be confident to just say KTHXBYE to themif you believe you're more powerful to what they have, they will attack if they feel they can defeat all of your your secret weapons and bases, they will not attack if they know they will lose, but they might attack and lose, if they didn't knew about the secret weapons. (but this is a quick summary)

Did someone say it's all about information? Aren't so many corporations providing "FREE" stuff in exchange for your "usage reporting", oh gee what do we have here.

Telemetry (read: Military Intelligence) in various software is an extremely insulting term the corporations are using, because usually telemetry was something only NASA (etc) had with their SPACE PROBES which are soul-less robots, so basically these corporations see you as mindless consumers who report their telemetry back to them as if they own you and your life.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 4, 2019)

Godwin's law is triggered, this thread should end. Leave politics aside. Especially Russian and Ukraine war.

Once again, most are kinda off the reality, how things work in real life.

Developer has no right to express public his view as company representative, without coordinating with upper CEO, sales management. It is like a janitor starts to bumble how things should be made at CERN. It's plain and totally wrong. He must do his job coding or designing the game, selling and marketing is left for other positions in the company. He should be scolded or fired for such actions, as it taints the franchise. It is a product they sell. It ain't pennies, but near million, it involves many people. This cannot be taken seriously. Calm down everyone. It is just one person.

It looks like scripted, even the reviews at steam, it could be set up to make steam look like that. Knowing all that. Someone is financially interested and paid making all this fuss. Losers are 4A and Steam from this both, so look elsewhere.

Acting like dumb sheeps.


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## phanbuey (Feb 4, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> PC gamers are such cry babies, unbelievable. I bet they would still make loads of money with console only versions. You guys are toxic as f but in the end you´re all playing counter strike or dota.



How is that toxic - in what way is not supporting exclusive distribution toxic?  Or are you just spouting off what you hear without any evidence?

Counterstrike and Dota huh?  Ok.

Enjoy buying your 8 future consoles just so you can play the games you want because publishers/developers arbitrarily go exclusive.


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## Gungar (Feb 4, 2019)

natr0n said:


> If you were a dev you would want to make the most profit possible to insure you will still have a studio for new games.
> 
> To jump on a new platform offered backed by a powerhouse in the industry is only logical.
> 
> ...



The only corrupted mind here is yours if you can't see how this stupidity is anti consumer.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Developer has no right to express public his view as company representative, without coordinating with upper CEO, sales management. It is like a janitor starts to bumble how things should be made at CERN. It's plain and totally wrong. He must do his job coding or designing the game, selling and marketing is left for other positions in the company. He should be scolded or fired for such actions, as it taints the franchise. It is a product they sell. It ain't pennies, but near million, it involves many people. This cannot be taken seriously. Calm down everyone. It is just one person.
> 
> It looks like scripted, even the reviews at steam, it could be set up to make steam look like that. Knowing all that. Someone is financially interested and paid making all this fuss. Losers are 4A and Steam from this both, so look elsewhere.
> 
> Acting like dumb sheeps.



Indeed, it gets into the legal stuff whether or not he's allowed or not from expressing those views, there is confidentiality, but there's other anti-corruption and whistleblower laws so it gets complicated.

The no-right is only internal between the employess of the company in that case, I would assume. But wait a minute, you don't know the actual contract, nobody does, some companies have more relaxed policy than others, so don't jump to conclusions.

That said, if the person is a real developer and the company does not stand behind those claims, it's just whatever, it's the same subjective opinion as if someone random said it on the street,, in true fairness any action by fans against the whole company on the game based on an unofficial and personal opinion would be unjustified. Gamers wouldn't win in court using tha persons opinion as argument if that's not the official stance of the company.



Ferrum Master said:


> Godwin's law is triggered, this thread should end. Leave politics aside. Especially Russian and Ukraine war.
> 
> Once again, most are kinda off the reality, how things work in real life.



Every thread has more or less natural possibility to derail, where evolved people are present those derails can naturally rerail themselfs, but it also takes some patience, so there's 2 factors, and in many other places re-rails would eventually happen if it weren't for the impatience.


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## sepheronx (Feb 4, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Just like the border between Germany and Poland is largely illusory, as is the German-French border, etc., etc.. Where ever there are borders that aren't drawn along natural barriers to migration, people have moved across, back and forth, as long as there have been people there to do so. That's humanity for you. As such, claiming that "Crimea is really Russian" or "Ukraine is really Russian" is an absurd claim, as neither of those current countries/areas are the same as whatever previous entity might have occupied/claimed those lands previously. That's just selective reading of history. If anything, the Kievan Rus' being centered around Kiev does kind of underscore how the Russia of today is a modern construct, no? Pretty much all countries are.
> 
> Tl;dr: nation states are largely arbitrary constructs that have ever less value in a modern, connected, global society, and clinging to outdated and illusory ideas of nationalism is harmful to everyone involved. Please stop.



Except modern Ukraine is really a construct of what was given by the USSR


RuskiSnajper said:


> You are misunderstanding the post. You should have read the first statement "if were were to dig into that nationality stuff deeply". You are technically correct but you are twisting it and putting it on me as if I was for one or the other. I'm explaining the reality currently in place and in practice and in history. However there are many more sides you can look at this.
> 
> Universally there is no ownership of anything, there's no inherency, but that's how it would be in the perfect world, but in practice every living thing on the planet has it's own corner and enforces ownership, and everyone would need to reach extremely high levels of understanding and philosophy close to achieveing some kind of enlightenment for all of them to live in peace without borders and move around freely, but beign unified doesn't that actually destroy the diversity of various cultures, which very hard to achieve, if not impossible, your leftist ways aren't correct and you'll either have to mindcontrol or destroy everyone to make them "understand".
> 
> ...



You quoting the wrong dude man.


----------



## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> You quoting the wrong dude man.



Fixed, I had some issues with multi-quote and back and forth.


----------



## Prince Valiant (Feb 4, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Or people actually do what they say. Example, I have one installed client; Steam. But I buy most of my game titles on GOG. I rarely use Steam.
> 
> While I try out all the other client platforms, it is done only to see what their like and how they work so that I can render an informed opinion. Haven't said that, beyond the scope of being inquisitive, they were swiftly deleted from my test system. Most people don't go to those measures and just don't use what they don't like regardless of how good a game is.
> 
> ...


I know I do. It's sad that people think not accepting poor business practices is a bad thing. 

If everyone could grow a spine and say no then we wouldn't have to deal with platform clients anymore.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 4, 2019)

Prince Valiant said:


> I know I do. It's sad that people think not accepting poor business practices is a bad thing.
> 
> If everyone could grow a spine and say no then we wouldn't have to deal with platform clients anymore.



I enjoy the option of a launcher but dislike being forced to use one, which is why I "Put-up" with GOG secondary to steam.
Game Library management is a lot easier with Steam and GOG, not requiring physical media.
I don't miss the days of CD binders.  Always on DRM? bad, having to use launchers, bad, features some of them bring, Good.
The problem is, Epic launcher brings all of the bad with none of the good.
Metro is not a game that is going to get played from the couch and latency is important so in this instance.
Big game mode, streaming between computers and VR are not as important.

That said, I am still choosy of where my data goes...and Epic has not been trustworthy in its short history.
I agree, I don't think anyone is boycotting the game, just the Epic launcher... so good luck on sales numbers till exclusivity ends.

I bought the first two and loved them and then they re-released and supported linux, they were headed in the right direction, this is a misstep.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2019)

ne6togadno said:


> invalid argument.


Completely valid point. See below..


ne6togadno said:


> steam, origin, upaly, gog galaxy, battlent launcher (havent tried epic launcher yet) all have the option "start when pc start" that can be disabled.


But not everyone knows that option is there or how to use it. Half the time when people bring their PC's into my shop it's due to their system running slow because a crap ton of things are starting with Windows and they have no idea that they can turn it off. I have to show them how and remove crap that isn't needed.



Patriot said:


> I don't miss the days of CD binders.


I actually do miss those days. But I never used binders. I have bookshelves with all of my movies, games and music, perfectly organized.


Patriot said:


> Always on DRM? bad, having to use launchers


Agreed.


Patriot said:


> features some of them bring, Good


While it's easy to see that some people enjoy them, not everyone cares.


Patriot said:


> I bought the first two and loved them and then they re-released and supported linux, they were headed in the right direction, this is a misstep.


Again, agreed!


----------



## phanbuey (Feb 4, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> Except modern Ukraine is really a construct of what was given by the USSR



I'm Ukrainian (born and raised - left Ovrutch when I was a teenager) and I wouldn't say that... I think it's a result of people trying to make a quick buck... Lots of crime, lots of corruption, brain drain, wasted potential.  Everyone that can leave does - it's really bad there now; we don't even go back because it's too dangerous.

Ukraine was actually really well off when the USSR broke up (Gorbachev was part Ukranian) when the borders were drawn they got alot of the Russian production capacity and ability to mine raw materials.  It all went to waste.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Feb 4, 2019)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> us? you got a frogger in your pocket? Speak for yourself. I dont mind, but I'm a Gamer at Heart. I buy a game not a launcher.


Unfortunately these days, you get both. Id rather have 1 launcher to rule them all.


----------



## sepheronx (Feb 4, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I'm Ukrainian (born and raised - left Ovrutch when I was a teenager) and I wouldn't say that... I think it's a result of people trying to make a quick buck... Lots of crime, lots of corruption, brain drain, wasted potential.  Everyone that can leave does - it's really bad there now; we don't even go back because it's too dangerous.
> 
> Ukraine was actually really well off when the USSR broke up (Gorbachev was part Ukranian) when the borders were drawn they got alot of the Russian production capacity and ability to mine raw materials.  It all went to waste.



My family left in 1930 from Lviv Ukraine.  Prior to Soviet Union, Ukraine wasn't really Ukraine tbh.  Novorussia was a thing and consisted of eastern Ukraine while west is more of former Polish territory.

As for current structure, you got that right.  Cant say I am surprised tbh of what happened to Ukraine.  US saw an advantage by using the Banderists to stir trouble and eventually take the country.  Now?  Well, religious freedom gone out the window, political freedom out the window, raised utilities, death threats through a Canadian hosted website towards people who are sympathetic to eastern Ukraine, etc.  But that is neither here nor there regarding this topic so I will keep it at that.

What a hot mess.  I don't blame A4 games leaving.


----------



## 64K (Feb 4, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> Unfortunately these days, you get both. Id rather have 1 launcher to rule them all.



I think we are going to continue to see other Publishers chipping away at Steam's dominance with their own stores. Epic is so determined to get people on their store that they are giving away a free game there every 2 weeks for the rest of this year and they are even paying other Publishers to make their new game exclusive to the Epic Store. We will probably have many more launchers in the future.


----------



## sepheronx (Feb 4, 2019)

64K said:


> I think we are going to continue to see other Publishers chipping away at Steam's dominance with their own stores. Epic is so determined to get people on their store that they are giving away a free game there every 2 weeks for the rest of this year and they are even paying other Publishers to make their new game exclusive to the Epic Store. We will probably have many more launchers in the future.



At that point I will just jump back to console.

Last thing I want is all these launchers.


----------



## phanbuey (Feb 4, 2019)

64K said:


> I think we are going to continue to see other Publishers chipping away at Steam's dominance with their own stores. Epic is so determined to get people on their store that they are giving away a free game there every 2 weeks for the rest of this year and they are even paying other Publishers to make their new game exclusive to the Epic Store. We will probably have many more launchers in the future.



I mean once that Fortnite money runs out, they will have to adjust.  Free games are nice and all but it's like taking accepting a free candybar in prison - in the long run it probably isnt worth it.

If you think Facebook is bad with privacy.  Just wait for Epic... it will be Epic.


----------



## Dimi (Feb 4, 2019)

If a game doesn't launch on Steam or occasionally Uplay, i don't buy it. Simple as that.
I didn't even activate my overwatch & destiny 2 humble keys on whatever launcher they use. I don't care.

I was really looking forward to playing Rage 2 and Doom Eternal but no Steam = no buy.


----------



## king of swag187 (Feb 4, 2019)

imagine having to strong-arm (bad) exclusives to your platform to be "competitve", and having a terrible design (not even a search bar) all the while sending your users data back to the chinese government
Hah!
*imagine*


----------



## RoutedScripter (Feb 4, 2019)

So we have a 360 degree loop around the discussion and when we talked about corporations, and now reflecting back to the opinions of "_One launcher for all_" it's kinda not what benefits the consumer. In this system under this idea of endless growth, pure profit driven culture and the stock market casinos where competition is required for anything civilized to come out of it ...  isn't it better to have more launchers, isn't that more diversity, like having more GPU manufacturers instead of just two.

Intel is coming to the game, but at what price, Raja Kuduri had left AMD for that to happen, so what if AMD sinks now or later? There won't be any more of them, it would still be only 2. So nothing happened, one guy moves to diff company, old company goes bust, same story goes on.

So you (supposably) want diversity on one end, but then on the other end you want one launcher to rule them all? That's called double-standards boys and girls. It looks like this "inclusiveness/tolerance" thing is just a big trick, their opinion changes based on what suits them in a particular time and area. If you're supposably "tolerant" , then you have to tolerate Metro being on another store, you would have to tolerate the exclusivity too, right ???

Even tho the allegations against Epic Games Store are quite worrying, the 40% Tencent ownership and the data flowing to chinese govt doesn't sound very well for a new launcher entering the field.

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/am18zn

That said, you can be well assured that all your Steam Data is vaccumed by the NSA anyway if it isn't by Tencent.

What's the point tho, well, all of the understanding is, there's many points, but ofcourse the relevant point here is that Steam just because it is established doesn't mean it is all that good, Gabe Newell was a MS guy and he apparently got the blueprint of the world 15-20 years ahead (it's not that hard tho), it just took some time for the ARPANET to be deployed in lots of places around the world and when the bandwidths were high enough it started working, he's no genius, betting on such a huge risk on Steam so early outside of the for-profit culture is just not a coincidence, not something any stock market player would ever do, UNLESS you have strategical foreknowledge.

If Valve was some fan favourite enlightened pro-consumer saint, they wouldn't be so silently exploiting the market dominance, well, they (corporations in general) usually telegraph it in various interviews/trade shows, which is not actually some good hearted advice, it's BRAGGING, but it's not like they tell you in your face "_We will be your second parent for the next 20 years, our nose will be all over your room even your underpants, all your base is belong to us_." even tho it's taking place. 

If Valve truly was some fan favourite enlightened pro-consumer saint, they would be doing a lot more WITHOUT THE NEED OF A COMPETITOR OR COMMUNITY TO FORCE THEIR HAND, they would be doing a lot more against swatting, they would be creating a integrated steam game-timer with reminders for playing too long, reminders to take breaks, they would be promoting all kinds of healthy lifestyle things, they wouldn't promote toxic sugary drinks and snacks, educating about the dangers of sedentary lifestyle, playing games for long periods.

Infact the most unhealthy part about playing games is sitting down and not moving and thus not breathing much oxygen for long periods of time, second is the eyestrain and bad light spectrum from LEDs (artificial light) including flicker rate (look for non-PWM-dimmed monitors, with DC-dimming)

So if they want to be all inclusive, which is what google is doing, they have to also be your parent and your doctor and your fitness trainer and your friend and your car and your bicycle and your phone and ... your government?  Well that's what it leads to doesn't it. Are you sure they're going to do ALL of these things for you for FREE all in your benefit exactly how you want? Do you even know if something is in your benefit that they offer you?

So will we see it one day? - "Steam GameTime" - Reminds you to unsquish your nerves in your butt after sitting for so long playing CSS.


----------



## phanbuey (Feb 4, 2019)

RuskiSnajper said:


> So you (supposably) want diversity on one end, but then on the other end you want one launcher to rule them all? That's called double-standards boys and girls. It looks like this "inclusiveness/tolerance" thing is just a big trick, their opinion changes based on what suits them in a particular time and area. If you're supposably "tolerant" , then you have to tolerate Metro being on another store, you would have to tolerate the exclusivity too, right ???



Dude - you can have all the launchers you want.  Just don't force people into it.  Sell on the epic store for $40, and sell on steam for $60 because they're shites who take 30% -- simple as that.

Sell everywhere, anywhere, and let the customer make the choice.  I would rather have my data vacuumed up by the NSA than the NSA, China, and everyone who hacked the Bethesda launcher (every 14 year old with a computer).  Forcing people to go somewhere to buy a videogame, so that we now need 8 launchers to play our games is completely unnecessary and hurts the developers by shrinking their market for absolutely no reason.

That's why people love 'platforms' like GoG and Steam; they don't FORCE you to buy from them.  You can buy from anywhere.

Origin, Bethesda, Epic are all hated for the same reason.

I don't even mind Ubisoft's or Rockstar's launchers because while they do launch in the background, they don't dictate where I do business or split my games library and force me to keep 5 contact lists of different friends online; and they quit after im done playing the game.

That's tolerance.  Easy.

#3 is complete bullshit on that post.  Exclusivity in this case props up shitty launchers like Epic, because the market CAN'T decide which platforms are the best, they HAVE to go somewhere.  It's basically monopoly; the opposite of competition.  And now you're tying the performance in sales of a GREAT work of art, to that of a horrible launcher.  So guess who suffers?   The people who least deserve it.

I think people are most angry about this game because it's going to be a great game.  The sales are going to hurt for no reason.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 4, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> Unfortunately these days, you get both. Id rather have 1 launcher to rule them all.



Do you feel the same about CPUs?  What about GPUs?


----------



## Shambles1980 (Feb 4, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Do you feel the same about CPUs?  What about GPUs?


rather retarded question there as the performance changes on those and you have to re buy them. but yea 1 perfect cpu and gpu would be better


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 4, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> rather retarded question there



I thought monopolies were evil like most big, bad corporations?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 4, 2019)

#2 on that list is terrible.  The developers that need financial relief are the small ones that will never sell $10 million worth.  I doubt Steam with that offer would even be attractive to Activision, EA, or Ubisoft because they're committing to 30% not knowing if they'll ever hit $10 million in sales.  They'll just stick to their own distribution platforms where they can keep virtually all of it.

And let's give those numbers context:




~$80 million and Epic is about half of Steam.

If your game made $100 million on Steam, you only keep $77 million. Conversely, you'd keep $88 million at Epic.  $11 million translates to a DLC getting made for the game that wouldn't have on Steam.

Flip it over: why the hell does Steam need to keep $23 million for running and maintaining some servers and a few code monkeys to create software updates?  $19 million of that probably goes to GabeN's retirement fund, $3 million probably goes to taxes, and $1 million goes to servers/bandwidth/staff.

I take Steam's offer as an insult.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 4, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If you look at what Tim Sweeney said, it is very possible that Metro Exodus wouldn't even exist without Epic Games committing monies to help develop, market, and publish it.  If there is, in fact, an exclusivity agreement between Epic Games and A4 Games, then Epic Games is more than a distributor (like Steam), it's a publisher too.  Think of Metro Exodus like Unravel for Origin/EA.  Independent games that are published by a larger company and a requirement for that is exclusivity to the Origin/EA market on PC.
> 
> Here's a VERY important quote from Tim Sweeney:
> I have been advocating this for years and it's something blockchain technology can make possible.  There needs to be an open infrastructure for game distribution which all distributors participate in (build servers and add them to the network, get paid for servicing users on the network).  The entire network acknowledges your right to software and so long as there as at least one participating, it will be honored.  If Sweeney is on the verge of making this a reality then more power to him.



I would definitely be for an opensource torrent like distribution network... would still need X amount of seeds from vendors to kick off the chain.

Steams marketing is mainly to its own users of which there are 67M monthly active 33M daily active.  I will agree that they could do more on the marketing side if they want to "earn" that 30%.
Metro does seem to have taken in a lot of external money, (nvidia for rtx support) and now EPIC paying them for exclusivity.  I have less issues with EPIC paying them for exclusivity than I do for their retraction from steam after months of advertising and pre-ordering.  Pre-orders pay the bills too.  There is a lot of this that is... out of sight behind valve and epic doors.  Perhaps there was an attempt to reduce that 30% number before leaving, we don't know.

4a is taking a big gamble here...  EPIC is currently kiddo daycare keeping screechers from the rest of online gameplay...
I have no desire to give Epic my personal info... they currently have shown they do not deserve it.







Vayra86 said:


> [That graph] @Patriot posted up there... it contains every Steam feature so that it can put lots of red boxes next to the other stores... but it lacks a crucial security item like 2FA. That alone speaks volumes. This is 10 year old temper tantrum level of argument. It is a lazy customer argument, it is a short-sighted customer argument. Nobody cares about 75% of the features on that list.





rtwjunkie said:


> Only an insecure person who needs masses of “friends” (yeah, we both know they aren’t actual friends) to feel good, would accuse someone who happens to like single player games of only liking them because they have no friends. It was totally uncalled for.



I love single player games, I also have a group of 15 people that I grew up with that have lans twice a year and play online every thursday night.
Having fragmented launchers is a bitch.  And the point stands, just because he doesn't care about community features enabling online friend play doesn't mean it isn't important to others.
You comment assuming someone doesn't have any real friends is just as uncalled for as mine.  



lexluthermiester said:


> I'd respond, but what I was thinking has already been said..
> Have to agree here. Very uncalled for. Though I have to say the graph is kinda cool. And it seems mostly accurate.


Context is important.

True Uncalled for, was a kneejerk to the uncalled for and inaccurate dismissiveness of a very accurate graph.
Dismissing facts because they don't support your view and personally attacking someone is going to get a retort.
Lots of kneejerks lets get back on topic.


----------



## 64K (Feb 4, 2019)

Patriot said:


> 4a is taking a big gamble here...  EPIC is currently kiddo daycare keeping screechers from the rest of online gameplay...
> I have no desire to give Epic my personal info... they currently have shown they do not deserve it.



From what I understand 4A Games has no choice in the matter. Koch Media and Deep Silver are the ones who chose to make Exodus a Epic Store exclusive for the time being. Despite all the outcry over this and people saying they won't sign up for an account on Epic, I suspect that most will. I will wait for it to hit Steam though. Epic is going to have to prove that they will keep their store up and well maintained and that the store will be secure before I buy anything there.


----------



## Patriot (Feb 4, 2019)

64K said:


> From what I understand 4A Games has no choice in the matter. Koch Media and Deep Silver are the ones who chose to make Exodus a Epic Store exclusive for the time being. Despite all the outcry over this and people saying they won't sign up for an account on Epic, I suspect that most will. I will wait for it to hit Steam though. Epic is going to have to prove that they will keep their store up and well maintained and that the store will be secure before I buy anything there.



I have the epic launcher because when it first came out it was for the unreal alpha as a dev demo.
Based on their security practices, they don't and won't ever have my CC info.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 4, 2019)

RuskiSnajper said:


> So we have a 360 degree loop around the discussion and when we talked about corporations, and now reflecting back to the opinions of "_One launcher for all_" it's kinda not what benefits the consumer. In this system under this idea of endless growth, pure profit driven culture and the stock market casinos where competition is required for anything civilized to come out of it ...  isn't it better to have more launchers, isn't that more diversity, like having more GPU manufacturers instead of just two.
> 
> Intel is coming to the game, but at what price, Raja Kuduri had left AMD for that to happen, so what if AMD sinks now or later? There won't be any more of them, it would still be only 2. So nothing happened, one guy moves to diff company, old company goes bust, same story goes on.
> 
> ...



The irony though. Reddit rant, gets massive upvotes, and ends it with 'I'm going to play Anthem open beta' (an _exclusive game _through Origin, the second most shitty launcher on the planet after Epic). Hmm nuff said 



Patriot said:


> I would definitely be for an opensource torrent like distribution network... would still need X amount of seeds from vendors to kick off the chain.
> 
> Steams marketing is mainly to its own users of which there are 67M monthly active 33M daily active.  I will agree that they could do more on the marketing side if they want to "earn" that 30%.
> Metro does seem to have taken in a lot of external money, (nvidia for rtx support) and now EPIC paying them for exclusivity.  I have less issues with EPIC paying them for exclusivity than I do for their retraction from steam after months of advertising and pre-ordering.  Pre-orders pay the bills too.  There is a lot of this that is... out of sight behind valve and epic doors.  Perhaps there was an attempt to reduce that 30% number before leaving, we don't know.
> ...



The point isn't that I don't use it, the point is that there are alternatives that were around fár longer than Steam was, and they work well. There are also newer alternatives. Regardless, if you have a tight group of buddies, you can bring them to a medium other than Steam. And if you can't, I would consider that a *BIG *headscratcher at the very least.

As for 'you don't have any friends'... completely offtopic IMO. I'm looking for the nuance here. And its been a 360 around the issue - yes, its shit they drop it as an exclusive shortly prior to launch, yes, you and I may have preferred linking it through Steam, but beyond that... the arguments people draw into this topic are hilarious to me. Things we've never heard of, people suddenly care about. That is what struck me the most about your list - not the fact that Epic is an inferior store. Because, again, I won't deny that. But I also feel its just that: a store. I only need to go in there, and out again, as quickly as possible. I'm not there for a store, I'm there for what it sells.

As for security leaks... Let's see. Sony had a massive leak in the PS3 days. Nowhere do we see massive boycot activity like we do here. I can name you another half dozen examples of well known companies with leaks that people actively kept using  (people in this very topic) and never worried about. Also, and I cannot stress this enough:*2 Factor authentication. Use it. *And none of this needs to be a problem.

As for history: I think people misunderstand that they *are not buying an Epic Games Store item*. They* are buying a game license*, that is pushed across the counter by Epic Games Store. Legally, you have every right to reclaim that license from 4A/the publisher should anything go south.

There are no problems here, just the ones people use as oil to fuel the fire. It is exactly as the supposed developer says: If you prefer playing Steam rather than 'our game', why should we listen to your wishes as a customer? What he didn't say but implicitly meant was: you were never going to buy this game anyway, and if you did, it would've been on your budget bin list. And it is what I also sincerely believe: this game will sell itself, the vast majority doesn't give a flying hoot about this at all, because Epic is doing just fine right about now. They are supporting a massively popular online game. Their brand is rock solid and a bit of Reddit noise won't change that.

The spin into 'Chinese government takeover' is best of it all, really. Wow. Next level  Tencent doesn't even own a majority share. And to top even that off, the last 1.5 page went in-depth on the Russia Ukrainian conflict which is just about 100% unrelated. And as for sharing personal data, you've got GDPR these days so its not something a random company casually tends to do. The potential height of the fine alone can amount to over twice the difference between Epic and Valve's fee.


----------



## Arumio (Feb 5, 2019)

RuskiSnajper said:


> So we have a 360 degree loop around the discussion and when we talked about corporations, and now reflecting back to the opinions of "_One launcher for all_" it's kinda not what benefits the consumer. In this system under this idea of endless growth, pure profit driven culture and the stock market casinos where competition is required for anything civilized to come out of it ...  isn't it better to have more launchers, isn't that more diversity, like having more GPU manufacturers instead of just two.
> 
> ///


Say it to Apple


----------



## Shambles1980 (Feb 5, 2019)

i dont get the "monopolies are bad" so "its good epic get 100% exclusive" argument..
If epic has 100% exclusive access to a game they have a monopoly on that game, so how can you argue that its a good thing then but a bad thing that steam is used by more people??
i actually dont think steam has any "exclusive only on steam *AAA* Games" (although i could be wrong)
so in this monopolies are bad argument Epic is the bad guy trying to make a monopoly.

genuinely don't think some people understand monopolies.

now as i stated i do think steam need to step up and do better for devs/publishers.
And i dont care about the other launchers i just don't use them.. But have no issues with them existing if others prefer them.
Which i think is the issue in general.. 
if you want to make a launcher then it needs to be able to add all my games to it and not need to launch a different launcher to start my games.
Who ever manages that Will be the launcher i use.. 
If epic makes their launcher read my steam library add all my steam games (and non steam games i added via cd key from the dvd box) And can launch them without also launching steam 1st Then il use the epic launcher. That wont happen so il stick with steam until it does.  (better the devil you know)

as for the exclusive to epic thing... thats just a forced monopoly. its 100% anti consumer and not something i approve of. 
If you want to sell the game for £10 less on epic launcher than you do on steam thats fine by me. I can understand that due to the difference in steam fees. But il probably pay the £10 more because i dont want extra launchers.
If you want to try and force me to use a launcher to play your game then im just not gonna play the game, it really is that simple.

in general i don't like or approve of exclusives. whether thats on a console or pc or in this case a launcher.

i used to play forza on a 360 and i bought the console. a ffb wheel a gold sub and for what?? to play 1 game 1ce a week online. so i ended up selling the 360 and i dont bother with consoles any more.
Do i miss out on exclusives because of it?? sure do i care?? not really no..
If you want me to buy your game you sell it where i will buy it. if not its obviously no loss for you, and its no loss for me either.


----------



## 64K (Feb 5, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> i dont get the "monopolies are bad" so "its good epic get 100% exclusive" argument..
> If epic has 100% exclusive access to a game they have a monopoly on that game, so how can you argue that its a good thing then but a bad thing that steam is used by more people??
> i actually dont think steam has any "exclusive only on steam *AAA* Games" (although i could be wrong)
> so in this monopolies are bad argument Epic is the bad guy trying to make a monopoly.
> ...



The only exclusives that Steam has are the games developed by Valve and Steam is the original source of having exclusives. Origin has exclusives but I think they are only games published by EA. Other publishers have exclusives on their sites as well. I think what caused the uproar in this case is that Epic paid some other publisher to make their game a timed exclusive on the Epic Store. Also Exodus was available on Steam for pre-order for a while and so Valve thinks it's unfair to pull it at this point.

Unless Exodus bombs, which I think is unlikely, we will see Epic doing more of this in the future.


----------



## Countryside (Feb 5, 2019)

Bombarding negative reviews on a older Metro games just because the new game will be released on a other platform is just stupid and childish.


----------



## XiGMAKiD (Feb 6, 2019)

> ...a PC version will always be at the heart of our plans


Even if this


> ...if all [PC] players boycott the game...


happened?

I say if people on the PC platform not gonna buy it then make it an exclusive for the console, draining your money for someone that's not gonna buy your product is not a good business plan


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

a not good buisiness plan is to announcce a game will be on 1 platfrom allow people to preorder the game, and then tell those same people that it wont be on the platform they used to pre-order the game.


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## FYFI13 (Feb 6, 2019)

Best of luck with that. I will NOT use other stores. They might cancel a game or two for PC, but sooner or later they will crawl back and beg for our money. If they don't  - others will, because that's serious amount of money.

In fact, i wouldn't mind buying game from their store if i could activate that CD key on Steam. Without using their launcher.

PS. I see some people oversimplifying whole situation to "2 clicks to install tiny launcher" or calling us lazy. There's A LOT more than that.


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## c2DDragon (Feb 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> That's why people love 'platforms' like GoG and Steam; they don't FORCE you to buy from them.


You know that in order to invite somebody as a friend in steam you actually DO HAVE to spend $5 minimum in their shop, right ?
Just saying.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

i have no isseues using something other than steam, provided thats the only thing i have to use. if epic or any one else can migrate all my steam games over there and let me use them without having to launch steam as well then il give it a go.
but as it stands my games are on steam and im not about to start a secondary libary else where even for free games (just ask twitch)


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## c2DDragon (Feb 6, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> i have no isseues using something other than steam, provided thats the only thing i have to use. if epic or any one else can migrate all my steam games over there and let me use them without having to launch steam as well then il give it a go.
> but as it stands my games are on steam and im not about to start a secondary libary else where even for free games (just ask twitch)


The laziness of people who don't want to click a shortcut to launch a different store reseller platform is something I don't get.
Same people lose hours to get something for free, to find a good movie, find a good porn clip but losing 5 minutes to download a tiny client downloader and then double click a shortcut (which they can put in the task bar so it's 1 click) is a no go. What is the problem ? 

And I will say nothing about the time lost to find THE game you will play when you launch your 200+ games library on Steam  Yeah cause you want to play something : "Ah there is an update for "insert any game" maybe I will play this, oh wait no, ah friend wants to play this game." Imagine this time lost 

Edit : I write english bad !


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

lazy has nothing to do with it. i dont spend a week writing scripts for free to help people online because im lazy.

try again you may hit on the actuall reason eventually.


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## c2DDragon (Feb 6, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> lazy has nothing to do with it. i dont spend a week writing scripts for free to help people online because im lazy.
> 
> try again you may hit on the actuall reason eventually.


I speak in general and without any aggressivity I don't even know you but you describe an example of somebody who act like lazy. No offense, it's laziness still


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

being lazy and just wanting to have my games in 1 location are not the same thing. i have amazon prime so i get free games on twitch every month. will i use the twitch launcher?? nope.. have i bought the same games on steam even though i have them for free on twitch?? yes. 
i just dont use other launchers.. i bought diablo 3. probably played it twice, uninstalled it and the launcher.. gtav i didnt get that on steam, uninstalled that and the launcher..  
i have no need for a new launcher. and forcing people to use one and calling them lazy because they dont want to use one is a insult  and misses the point.

I am a consumer and i have a choice.
If you want to bend over and take whatever they tell you to do and pay them for the privalage then thats your choice. 
but if they want my money then they can cater to me, if they dont want to thats fine im just 1 sale, and theres plenty of people who will bend over for them, but im not one.


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## jigar2speed (Feb 6, 2019)

You threaten us, what did you expect in return, gifts ?


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## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> That's why people love 'platforms' like GoG and Steam; they don't FORCE you to buy from them.  You can buy from anywhere.



Gee, that's strange.  I wasn't aware you had to buy from Epic.  I didn't get the email telling me that I was required to buy this game.  I better check so I don't get in trouble.



Shambles1980 said:


> a not good buisiness plan is to announcce a game will be on 1 platfrom allow people to preorder the game, and then tell those same people that it wont be on the platform they used to pre-order the game.



Also, those that preordered from Steam will allegedly still be able to use Steam, and even get updates on the game from Steam.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 6, 2019)

Toooo much drama over some mediocre games which I haven't got the desire to replay them not even once. I would have been a little worried if the devs from Diablo 3, Deus Ex, NFS, or other good franchises would want to jump the waggon, but this? Metro games are good, but not THAT good to deserve so much attention imo.



TesterAnon said:


> Was it so hard to release it in GOG, Steam, Epic, etc at the same time? No.


Noup. Unless you prefer that more than 60% of the proffits to go to toilet. I mean digital stores....


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## yogurt_21 (Feb 6, 2019)

Prima.Vera said:


> Toooo much drama over some mediocre games which I haven't got the desire to replay them not even once. I would have been a little worried if the devs from Diablo 3, Deus Ex, NFS, or other good franchises would want to jump the waggon, but this? Metro games are good, but not THAT good to deserve so much attention imo.
> 
> .


likely pc gamers trying to use this as an example to avoid those other companies from trying the same. Granted we already have the issue with origin, etc. 

I get the old arguments of "we used to have a launcher per game" but seriously did we give each our credit card info? other personal information etc? No. We bought the game in store back then and installed the launcher offline in most cases. 

It's not just a pain to have all these platforms, it's a security risk. The more you have the more attack vectors you're vulnerable from. Sure steam can get hacked, origin can get hacked, etc. But those are big names who you're going to pay attention to. 

If you give all this info over to a platform you play 1 game you'll play until you finish (sometimes not even that) and then forget you have the threat is still just as real, but you may not even realize you're one of the victims until much later if at all. 

It was the same way with online buying many years ago. You gave out info willy nilly to every jim bob store. Now you go through amazon, etc. People who have proper fraud mitigation and compensation. 

the epic games store is 61 days old... compare that with the 6 years for Origin and 15 years for Steam. 

Forgive me if I don't trust them just yet.


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## kings (Feb 6, 2019)

So much drama about a f# game...

First world problems, I guess!


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

kings said:


> So much drama about a f# game... First world problems, I guess!


Yet another person marginalizing a problem some people care about. We get it, this is not the end of the world. Thanks for pointing that out. No one claiming it is though. However, within the context and scope of the *GAMING* world, it's an important issue to some people.


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## Bytales (Feb 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> It's not about the platform -- it's about exclusivity.  The whole " you can ONLY buy it here" that EA, EPIC and others are trying to push.
> 
> Just because a Chinese company threw some money at these guys now the gamers who bought it from steam HAVE to download epic game launcher and HAVE to use the EPIC launcher which already got hacked twice.
> 
> ...



For People like yourself, if i were the developer, i would publish the game on steam at 5 times the Price on epic store. see if you would buy it them !


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## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm struggling to come up with a viable solution to the issue, though. See, my problem with not wanting a bunch of launchers is because I don't want to have to keep track of a bunch of gaming accounts. I signed up for Steam over 10 years ago, and that was one... and Steam does a great job making things easier for me. I no longer have to swap discs (or even have physical discs anymore, which take up physical space and are prone to damage), track down updates, or even wait on installing a bunch of games if I ever reinstall everything (sure, I have a limited download speed, but it's not slow, and at least Steam rolls on from one to the next automatically without me sitting at the computer swapping discs).

Then I think back to how things were before Steam, or around the time I started using Steam. How many games did I have separate accounts I had to keep track of for each one? I remember logging in to Battlefield 2, 2142, multiple versions of GunZ, some offbrand MMO called Silkroad... I recall Bad Company 2 being tied to my Steam account though, so theoretically if all those games were on Steam, they would ideally work the same way - one account to rule them all. Even with a few different launchers, at least I wouldn't have a whole bunch of accounts for a bunch of different games. Every Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc type game with any kind of stats or ranking system would likely require an account to keep track of.

But then, at least the games I did log in to at that time didn't have any personal information, besides my email and possibly my birthday or something. They didn't have my debit card info or anything (though I don't believe Steam does either - I use PayPal whenever possible). Sure, the more accounts you sign up for that have your financial info represents a greater risk the more you have, but that's a risk you take just by even having a debit card, even if you never use it online. 

I'm not so sure I can easily blame the publishers of the game for going with the Epic store, either... isn't it their job to make money? If Epic is offering a much lower cut into your sales than Steam, why wouldn't you go with Epic? It's unfortunate that Epic was already hacked twice, which is the only good reason I can think of to stay away from them. But, if you take proper precautions as a consumer, you can at least mitigate the possibility of such breaches affecting _you_. I mean, if Steam got hacked tomorrow, what are they going to get? My PayPal? They'll still need my PayPal password too, and even if they _do_ get that, good luck getting past 2FA. 

Having a ton of accounts here there and everywhere is a fact of life in the 21st century... even the 20th century.


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## kings (Feb 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yet another person marginalizing a problem some people care about. We get it, this is not the end of the world. Thanks for pointing that out. No one claiming it is though. However, within the context and scope of the *GAMING* world, it's an important issue to some people.



I understand that it is annoying to have multiple clients installed, I would also prefer to have one for everything (whether it's for games, TV streaming, etc), but that's not how the competition works!

People complain every day about the lack of competition in certain markets, but they do not care about Steam dominance and charge whatever they want. US customers even had a $10 reduction in the game compared to Steam, maybe in the future this will be extended to everyone with the inclusion of regional pricing (at least we hope so).

After all, competition is also this, lower prices. If Steam starts losing a lot of AAA titles, they're going to have to change something and maybe even begin to remember that they're a gaming company and resuscitate their IPs.

But in one thing I agree, if the game started to be sold on Steam, it should have stayed that way.  I think Epic and Deep Silver could have handled things better!


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> Having a ton of accounts here there and everywhere is a fact of life in the 21st century... even the 20th century.


But it's not one we have to choose. I don't have accounts all over the place and never will. Just not a juggling act I'm willing to perform. Ever. And if we're being honest here, the only reason I have a Steam account is so that I can pay for games I already have. Most of the titles I've bought on Steam have never been downloaded. I've bought them to make up for having acquired them through "other" means, means which have all the crap DRM removed. I might consider doing this for Metro Exodus if they don't put it on GOG in a year.



kings said:


> but they do not care about Steam dominance and charge whatever they want.


That's nonsense. Stream's prices are very reasonable compared to Origin and others. The only etailer that does better on prices is GOG.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

i just see this debate we are having as 2 sets of people. 1 who see them selfs with consumer rights, and the others that say so what if we lose them its the 21st century let the buisnises do what they want and give us nothing of value in return for giving them money.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Stream's prices are very reasonable compared to Origin and others.



I haven't seen those cheap prices either.

Picked up Subnautica: Below Zero, both cost the same. So what's the fuss? Especially for us as consumers?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/848450/Subnautica_Below_Zero/

https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/subnautica-below-zero/home


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## phanbuey (Feb 6, 2019)

Bytales said:


> For People like yourself, if i were the developer, i would publish the game on steam at 5 times the Price on epic store. see if you would buy it them !



Good!  I would probably wait for a sale.  For people like yourself, If I were the developer, I would make an exclusive for a specific type of videocard, you know, because X hardware company paid me, and make you buy that.

You know, since you love unrelated hoops to jump through for your stuff.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> I haven't seen those cheap prices either.
> 
> Picked up Subnautica: Below Zero, both cost the same. So what's the fuss? Especially for us as consumers?
> 
> ...


Not a good example. Try a AAA title that's actually been released.


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## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> i just see this debate we are having as 2 sets of people. 1 who see them selfs with consumer rights, and the others that say so what if we lose them its the 21st century let the buisnises do what they want and give us nothing of value in return for giving them money.


Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?


Ah but then you can render input to Walmart, or whoever, that you'd like them to carry said product. I've personally done this with Target. And within 2 months they had a certain product on shelves. In that instance it was a book. I don't like Walmart and thought it would be a good book for Target to have in store. They agreed and arranged to carry it, granted I wasn't the only person to chime in on the subject. Retailers listen to their customer base because they know they can loose business to Amazon and the like. When the public speaks, retailers that want to stay in business listen. In this case, a part of the public is speaking. Will they listen an put and end to this exclusivity nonsense?


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## phanbuey (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?



Add to that analogy that it actually got pulled from Walmart's shelves because a shady chinese distributor gave someone in some subsidiary a kickback and you can see how a) that decision actually hurt the developers by making their product less accessible, thus hampering future products/sales and making them reliant on shady kickbacks and b) sets the trend for all the other shady distributors, hardware manufacturers, and business people who make decisions on behalf of developers that kickbacks for exclusive distribution are a thing, and this is a trend that should/can be exploited.

So yeah... choosing not to go to walgreens seems to be the definite correct choice in this instance.

https://mainmenu.games/2019/01/30/t...sers-support-boycotting-the-epic-games-store/


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## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ah but then you can render input to Walmart, or whoever, that you'd like them to carry said product. I've personally done this with Target. And within 2 months they had a certain product on shelves. In that instance it was a book. I don't like Walmart and thought it would be a good book for Target to have in store. They agreed and arranged to carry it, granted I wasn't the only person to chime in on the subject. Retailers listen to their customer base because they know they can loose business to Amazon and the like. When the public speaks, retailers that want to stay in business listen. In this case, a part of the public is speaking. Will they listen and put and end to this exclusivity nonsense?





phanbuey said:


> Add to that analogy that it actually got pulled from Walmart's shelves because a shady chinese distributor gave someone in some subsidiary a kickback and you can see how a) that decision actually hurt the developers by making their product less accessible, thus hampering future products/sales and making them reliant on shady kickbacks and b) sets the trend for all the other shady distributors, hardware manufacturers, and business people who make decisions on behalf of developers that kickbacks are a thing, and this is a trend that should/can be exploited.
> 
> So yeah... choosing not to go to walgreens seems to be the definite correct choice in this instance.



Oh sure, I agree with both your posts completely. Of course, you can reach out to your shop and tell them you'd like them to carry a certain specific product, and they'd listen if there was enough demand for a product (how many times have you seen the phrase "back by popular demand"?). You can also, of course, choose where to shop and what to buy "vote with your wallet". But what you can't do is dictate what store carries what or what store a manufacturer, developer, publisher etc puts their product. Not by yourself, anyway. The most powerful tool you have and will ever have is your wallet; use it wisely.

As for me, I own Metro 2033 on Steam (thought I had Last Light too, but I guess I don't). Picked it up on sale because I heard somewhere that it was kinda like Stalker. I'll probably grab Last Light now that it's on sale, and might pick this one up when it's on sale on Steam... because I personally don't want the inconvenience of another launcher.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> As for me, I own Metro 2033 on Steam (thought I had Last Light too, but I guess I don't).


Both are on GOG. Get them there, DRM free. GOG has them for the same price or less.(Love ya GOG! You guys are awesome!)


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> Rights? What rights? The developer, publisher, whoever gets to choose which place(s) carry, or do not carry, their product. If you decide to shop exclusively at Wal-Mart for some reason, what consumer rights could you possibly exercise when you hear Walgreens or somebody is carrying an item you want, but Wal-Mart doesn't have it?


thats a redundant argument. mfrs fight over them selves to sell at walmart because that's where the majority of  consumers shop..
your argument is 100% backwards.


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## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

Wal-Mart and Walgreens are just random names I pulled fresh out of my rear end. I didn't mean to posit an actual scenario between the two shops.



lexluthermiester said:


> Both are on GOG. Get them there, DRM free. GOG has them for the same price or less.(Love ya GOG! You guys are awesome!)



Ah, but that's the crux of the issue (for me). GOG is another account to manage. I already have Steam, why wouldn't I buy it there and avoid creating another account? However, supporting GOG (and thereby supporting their vision of DRM free software, and you know I don't like DRM any more than you) is a good reason to create an account with them...


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

But your scenario was based on manufacturers putting their things where they want and tough for you the consumer.
When in reality because so many consumers shop in Walmart they fight over them selves to sell there, And they do that because that's where the consumers Chose to shop. not because thats where they chose to sell the stuff, or that they get a better return from walmart.
so your argument just went ahead and proved my point.

oh and as for your question, my consumer rights would be not to buy it from walgreans and the mfr would sell at walmart if they wanted my money (100% exactly what happens already)


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## Guest! (Feb 6, 2019)

"I remember the words of Prof [some nickname presumably - no idea who this person is]  " Is Andrew 'Prof' Prokhorov, the 
game designer of STALKER and Metro series





By the way  http://www.4a-games.com.mt/4a-dna/important-update


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

yeah you know some (bad word) people will use that contact form to complain about the steam thing.


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## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> But your scenario was based on manufacturers putting their things where they want and tough for you the consumer.



That's how it is, though. Sure, you can vote with your wallet, but if a manufacturer decides to exclusively carry at Walgreen's anyway... that's up to them. Might not be the best business decision, but one they _can_ make.



Shambles1980 said:


> When in reality because so many consumers shop in Walmart they fight over them selves to sell there, And they do that because that's where the consumers Chose to shop. not because thats where they chose to sell the stuff, or that they get a better return from walmart.
> so your argument just went ahead and proved my point.



Of course. Generally, it would be a good business move to try to put your product where a lot of people shop, not to be exclusive at a place where fewer people shop. That's why I don't quite get this move to sell exclusively at Epic. I mean, I recognize Epic from way back in the early 00's seeing their logo every time I started UT99... but the Epic store is relatively unknown compared to Steam. Steam is a behemoth these days, and comparatively, as a storefront, Epic is just an upstart. Hopefully, if Steam really is that hard on developers who wish to put games on their store, maybe this move will cause them to re-evaluate their business model. Still, if Steam is flooded with tons of shitty indie games, how can 4A/THQ Nordic/Deep Silver/whoever not manage to put a title like Metro on it? Sure, it's not huge like Battlefield or Call of Duty, but it's gotta be a lot more recognizable than most of the stuff that somehow makes it on Steam. It doesn't look like it's very hard to get into.



Shambles1980 said:


> oh and as for your question, my consumer rights would be not to buy it from walgreans and the mfr would sell at walmart if they wanted my money (100% exactly what happens already)



Absolutely. You get to vote with your wallet. Nobody can force you to buy anything you don't want to.



Shambles1980 said:


> yeah you know some (bad word) people will use that contact form to complain about the steam thing.



Man, I sure hope not. That's the last thing that dude needs right now. Of course, it's bound to happen though...


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> GOG is another account to manage. I already have Steam, why wouldn't I buy it there and avoid creating another account?


Two reasons;  One, setting up a GOG account is easy-breezy, and two, while they promote Galaxy, you don't have to use it. All titles are available direct download. You download the game and install it to the directory of your choice.


hat said:


> However, supporting GOG (and thereby supporting their vision of DRM free software, and you know I don't like DRM any more than you) is a good reason to create an account with them...


Yes, exactly! And their DRM free marketplace is the most worthy of etailers to support! You own your games outright and have the liberty to use them as you wish and mod them as you wish for as long as you wish. Steam allows some of that on limited levels with some titles and no-one else comes close. In my book, for PC gaming, GOG has *no* peers. They are in a high-bar class of their own!


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## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Two reasons; One, setting up a GOG account is easy-breezy, and two, while they promote Galaxy, you don't have to use it. All titles are available direct download. You download the game and install it to the directory of your choice.



What I find hilarious about this is that these are pretty much the same steps to install Metro.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

i dont think people understand that they should offer consumers a reason to use their platform other than forced exclusivity.. 
If you want me to use your stuff so you can make money then you need to give me a reason to do that which isnt black mail.


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## Prince Valiant (Feb 6, 2019)

hat said:


> I'm struggling to come up with a viable solution to the issue, though. See, my problem with not wanting a bunch of launchers is because I don't want to have to keep track of a bunch of gaming accounts. I signed up for Steam over 10 years ago, and that was one... and Steam does a great job making things easier for me. I no longer have to swap discs (or even have physical discs anymore, which take up physical space and are prone to damage), track down updates, or even wait on installing a bunch of games if I ever reinstall everything (sure, I have a limited download speed, but it's not slow, and at least Steam rolls on from one to the next automatically without me sitting at the computer swapping discs).
> 
> Then I think back to how things were before Steam, or around the time I started using Steam. How many games did I have separate accounts I had to keep track of for each one? I remember logging in to Battlefield 2, 2142, multiple versions of GunZ, some offbrand MMO called Silkroad... I recall Bad Company 2 being tied to my Steam account though, so theoretically if all those games were on Steam, *they would ideally work the same way - one account to rule them all. Even with a few different launchers, at least I wouldn't have a whole bunch of accounts for a bunch of different games.* Every Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc type game with any kind of stats or ranking system would likely require an account to keep track of.


We had Gamespy for that and most games had LAN and direct IP/self-hosting options.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> What I find hilarious about this is that these are pretty much the same steps to install Metro.


No, it isn't. Exodus will require the Epic client which requires an internet connection for installation validation on a per instance basis(IE every time the game runs) and the client must be running at the same time the game is and if the dev/publisher desides to end game support or shuts down, you lose your game permenantly with no recourse. With GOG, none of those requirements/restrictions apply. You pay for and download the game, install it and play away to your heart's content. No client requirements, no internet connection, no validation, no time limits and no risk of losing access when the dev/publisher EOL's the game or goes out of business. You own the games you pay for for life. *This is why DRM free is so important. GOG respects your rights.*


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not a good example. Try a AAA title that's actually been released.



In... epic store there is no AAA for now... lulz

but I guess the pattern will be the same. Guess what store did I prefer in this case?


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> In... epic store there is no AAA for now... lulz


Far enough, but let's try one that is on all three, GOG, Stream and Epic; Darksiders 3
https://www.gog.com/game/darksiders_iii
$60
https://store.steampowered.com/app/606280/Darksiders_III/
$60(currently on sale for $42)
https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/darksiders3/home
$60

GOG and Steam both have the Deluxe version which contains the very excellent OST;
https://www.gog.com/game/darksiders_iii_deluxe_edition
$80
https://store.steampowered.com/sub/286843/
$80(currently on sale for $56)
Epic does not have the Deluxe version of the game at all.

While Steam currently has the title on sale, GOG recently had it on sale too and at a slightly better price(I got the Deluxe version for $53).
The sales come and go but this is just one example of how Epic is trailing behind.

Metro Exodus is going to be good, but it's not going to motivate a lot of us to switch over. I'd rather not have the game at all, than have to deal with Epic's crap client and DRM.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> What I find hilarious about this is that these are pretty much the same steps to install Metro.


Not understanding what you are talking about there.  What lex is saying is that the Galaxy launcher is unnecessary.  Once you buy the game install it and run it from a shortcut, you are never signing into anything.  The only time you sign in is to the store to purchase and then download the game installer.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Not understanding what you are talking about there.



Why would the average person here complaining about multiple launchers actually bother to download a standalone installer?  I just don't see them getting around to clicking an icon other than Steam.  Or maybe even figuring out how not to install Galaxy.

Then you look at that, and say: Holy Crap, it's so much easier to just buy it from Epic and be done with it.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

well at least they can rely on those who will give them money for nothing i guess.
genuinely no point explaining it again but i will try. 

As a consumer i have a choice, I chose to only use 1 launcher. That happens to be steam. This is not because i am lazy or cannot do something it is a choice i made and i am entitled to make, If you as epic  want me to change to your launcher you need to Offer me something to make it worth my time, You want my money then i want something of value in return. 
Bribing developers/publishers Does not Gain me anything, it does not gain ANY consumer anything, It only serves Epic and the publishers/devs. 
To try and instill false value to your platform by bribing publishers and devs is not adding value. 
If publishers have an issue with steam and their pricing structure, then that may be an issue but it is not my issue.

Like i said if others are willing to bend over and do what any publisher/dev/platform wants you to do then thats your call, i wont insult you because of your choice which you are entitled to make.
But it is quite sad that the argument for using epic amounts to the current game publishers meme of"you all have mobile phones dont you whats the problem?" 
its quite telling of how the gaming industry has arrived at the situation it is in today.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Why would the average person here complaining about multiple launchers actually bother to download a standalone installer?  I just don't see them getting around to clicking an icon other than Steam.  Or maybe even figuring out how not to install Galaxy.
> 
> Then you look at that, and say: Holy Crap, it's so much easier to just buy it from Epic and be done with it.


There is no “figuring out” how to not install galaxy.  You have to decide to install it.  There is no installer software for the games.  Its just an executable and the data files, just like you would find on a dvd or cd of old.  People do it because the advantage of always owning the game outright, versus renting a license is huge.

I’m merely extolling the virtues of GOG.   For me there is no question like you ask about, since I have also installed Epic.  I prefer GOG, but also have no problem installing another launcher if it means getting a game/games I want.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> it is not my issue



Unfortunately, it is your issue or we wouldn't have this thread.  The other side of the coin, is that other people are tired of Steam dictating terms to everyone.  For better or worse, this is a step in breaking that.



rtwjunkie said:


> I’m merely extolling the virtues of GOG.



I love GOG too.  Most of my games come from there, it is my preferred choice.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

nope.. genuinely not my issue.. never intended to buy the game on release any way so waiting for it to come out on steam wont bother me. 
Listing it for sale on steam and then changing it to a epic exclusive near release date is genuinly a dick move. Still as stated thats not my issue. 

As stated before the reason people stopped torrenting music is because itunes made it simple and accessible in one place.
Im pretty sure steam had a similar effect on pc games. And if people decide may as well download games els where rather than have to struggle through multiple launchers that wont be my issue either.


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## c2DDragon (Feb 6, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> As stated before the reason people stopped torrenting music is because itunes made it simple and accessible in one place.
> Im pretty sure steam had a similar effect on pc games. And if people decide may as well download games els where rather than have to struggle through multiple launchers that wont be my issue either.


People stopped torrenting music  In which universe ?
People still download games/music/movies, VPNs sales exploded and there is now X number of VPNs.
Lambda people stopped because of majors prosecutions and the fines to pay after being flashed torrenting "insert labeled famous singer/band".

Pirate gamers can find a game good and decide to buy and be able to use online features or just to support the devs (for real it happens a lot in the world I live).
Denuvo is a joke now, Resident Evil 2 was available in 1 week. Just Cause 4 (what a crap) was available super fast.
I don't know where you came to think iTunes had an effect on pirates. Same for Steam, cracked games are easier than ever to install now (repacks already cracked).

For sure Steam permits to have cheap games. An effect you can actually see is CD keys bounding games to a library make them impossible to resell. Used video games market has been killed by Steam.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 6, 2019)

where as "every one" didnt stop torrenting music More than you care to imagine did when i tunes came around.
it was easier and safer to buy songs on itunes have them in one place and be able to access them easily, compared to downloading them from places like napster where you never knew  what you were going to get, or if the songs you wanted were even available.

there is a value in convenience that I tunes and steam provided (steam did not always have that value as it used to suck and so i refused to use it) But as of right now Steam has a convenience value and epic just has a forced exclusive that provides no value to me only for devs/publishers.
And if they don't provide me a value to make me switch from steam (because i wont be using multiple launchers) Then i just wont use their launcher..

for me the only real way epic can get me to move over is to provide 100% exactly what steam provides me Including all my steam games that i already have, AND then they have to offer something extra to make me move over. Trying to strong arm me over by making a game exclusive is going to work as well for epic as it has for play station with the last of us or god of war.. I don't care that i wont play those games, and i guess they don't care that they never get any of my money when they make exclusives.

But its still a dick move to bait and switch, And im pretty sure Paying some one to be exclusive to you after production of the prooduct when its already been advertised as being available is called anti competitive you can ask Intel about that one, Although that example would have been the dev/publisher paying steam to only have there game for sale its still the same basic premise..

Offering publishers a better % rate is one thing, but paying them to be exclusive genuinely is anti competative, however im sure they have clever lawyers who word contracts very specifically so it technically isn't anti competitive


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## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

Prince Valiant said:


> We had Gamespy for that and most games had LAN and direct IP/self-hosting options.


That's not quite what I mean. Sure, Gamespy would help you keep track of servers, but I specifically remember having to create and sign into accounts for Battlefield 2 and 2142... or maybe it was the same account across both games via an EA account or something.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 7, 2019)

that was early drm attempts,


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## OneMoar (Feb 7, 2019)

No piracy Discussion


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## hat (Feb 7, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> that was early drm attempts,


You already had DRM in the form of CD keys and requiring the physical disc in the drive to play (unless you did like I did and made an image of the disc and mount in a virtual drive). I figured the Battlefield accounts were necessary to keep track of each player's stats, now that points, ranks, medals, unlockable weapons etc were part of the game. Of course, they probably could have just as well tied such info to the CD key instead...


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 7, 2019)

was always online drm.. cd keys were useless for any non multiplayer game.

did a quick google, this probably covers it.. may not i guess but probably will


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## bajs11 (Feb 7, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Except 4A isn’t Russian.



haha i stand corrected
it seems im still living in the 1980s...


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 7, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> was always online drm.. cd keys were useless for any non multiplayer game.
> 
> did a quick google, this probably covers it.. may not i guess but probably will


LGR hit the major points. That was a good video.


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## BorgOvermind (Feb 7, 2019)

Lots of debate here I see.
All things said, I really hope this series won't go EA (if you know that I mean).


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 9, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> Dude - you can have all the launchers you want. Just don't force people into it. Sell on the epic store for $40, and sell on steam for $60 because they're shites who take 30% -- simple as that.



Yeah but you guys didn't get it, again, or well I wasn't explaining it good enough. I was making a comparison and a viewpoint, I am obviously agreeing with you, but from their point of view they don't have to give a rats butt, because no contract has been made with you

Is it rude, is it inappropriate, is it bad idea, is it, that's all true, but they operate like a military and if it's not in contract they don't give a cow. All the PR and all the fluff is all military-grade psychological manipulation and deception, gaming companies hire the same kind of PR experts as any other company does, they read/learn the same books that were written from the +1940 US Military experiments where they had monkies strapped to TVs, among other things.

All the words may be sincere from the devs, cool, the catch is, it's never their decision on anything, all that is as good as dirt, no obligation, you are a phatom, as no contract was made between you or them, they announce it to the void, your response and recognition of their PR is only a coincidence, you make the contract when you buy the game, but before you get delivery(installation), which means you make the contract before you even see the full contents, everything is scientifically calculated against you, they can make arbitrary decision at any time.

No video game contract has much if any clauses on the quality of the game, technicalities like FPS, stability, compatability, there's no guarantee on anything, whether or not the experience will be enjoyable. It's not a product you commissioned, it's a fishing game, they use a fishing hook with bait, and hope enough fishes will bite, you only get the taste after you bitten, but you're also  caught at the same time, it is a fundamentally disrespectful , but the corporate idea uses the friendly word "commercial", it's military-style mindset, this is not a natural economy between people's, why would people of same country use military tactics against each other.

In KochMedia/DeepSilver mind, when they weighted this decision, they decided the financial gains (short or longterm or both) and or obligations outweight the expected community backlash, simple as that. The industry knows that most people cry out and then just move on after a week or two, they know the demography of children to young adults who eat poisonous sugary snacks, drinks and fast food has a very short attention span and given enough burgers and doritos they will gobble anything in due time.

All they have to do is to bombard some more PR so that the old story gets burried quick like a new trailer that was just released.

The lone developer was absolutely right about how review bombing may even lead , even tho it seems so out of possiblity,

About 2 years before id Software started breaking up they all said "oh we're here for the PC were not going anywhere". (because of Carmacks and Zenimax disagreements on VR, and Rage no-boss-at-end and wrong-driver-from-AMD debacle)

Gamers sometimes think that companies are their employees. There is no contract between you and them. Outside of the game. And also, in the contract for the game there's no guarantee of any patching and fixing either, it's a TOTAL joke, just like most consumer products.

You are all pissed, but I'm not, not because I don't think it's bad, because I'm not going to be their victim, this kind of stuff happens over and over again and it's part of the terrible business model on this planet,  it's not about that you have to deal with it, it's about that you have to transcend it, it's a battlefield, you need to find the way to navigate the fairest way, because many people when they see an unfair world they think it's nothing they can do so they just join with the unfairness, no, you strive and try to prove it can be done fairly despite the odds, only that's how it may someday turn the tide around.

It's childishness upon childishness, remember Crtyek, the idiot owners blew one of my fav PC games with their stupid attitude, no wonder everyone left, cause they're childish, most senior management is a lot more decadent than you think, it's all a big joke, being fascinated by some fast luxurious cars, those are toys for the stupid rich, same kind of thing going there, the more bling it has the more supposable worth it has, which is a lie, most of the premium on richy rich stuff is all estehtics, zero technical/practical value/capability, of zero strategic military importance.

The only way to make it better as other's also mentioned is to BOTHER THE CRAP out of Epic Games to get their Launcher up to par and features, it is not going to help to boycott the developer or anything with the game as you will only be hurting the raw developers.



Arumio said:


> Say it to Apple



Sure it applies to many.



Countryside said:


> Bombarding negative reviews on a older Metro games just because the new game will be released on a other platform is just stupid and childish.



Exactly. Need to remain fair, fair to the old game which has nothing to do with this.



Shambles1980 said:


> a not good buisiness plan is to announcce a game will be on 1 platfrom allow people to preorder the game, and then tell those same people that it wont be on the platform they used to pre-order the game.



That's the core of the emotional issue here, and it's an emotional issue (rude) as it is still legally/technically not violating any contract, but most living beings would recognise it as a bandit-type thing to do.


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## Timotee (Feb 24, 2019)

Just dropping in because I saw this thread on google when searching a glitch problem. How hard is it to download a game? Who cares which launcher? It's a single player game. Loving this game with or without steam. Damn sorry generation of I want it and I want it now, lol. Stop crying and enjoy the game for what it is and move on.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 24, 2019)

Normally I would say "Welcome to the forums", yet in this case you came in being a jerk. Seriously with that?



Timotee said:


> Who cares which launcher?


Clearly, you don't get why it matters.


Timotee said:


> Damn sorry generation of I want it and I want it now, lol.


I'm middle aged and have been gaming very likely longer than you've been alive. The situation is that we want to actually own our games when we pay for them, not rent them on the whims of a company that might shut down a few years down the road, rendering the game we paid for unplayable. If you're going to jump into a conversation and offer input and chiding remarks, make sure you understand the context of the conversation first.


Timotee said:


> Stop crying and enjoy the game for what it is and move on.


Stop embarrassing yourself.


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## phanbuey (Mar 1, 2019)

Timotee said:


> Just dropping in because I saw this thread on google when searching a glitch problem. How hard is it to download a game? Who cares which launcher? It's a single player game. Loving this game with or without steam. Damn sorry generation of I want it and I want it now, lol. Stop crying and enjoy the game for what it is and move on.



This is how the terrorists win.


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## BorgOvermind (Mar 1, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> This is how the terrorists win.


Terrorists won already for quite a while and they lead everyone now, but people did not realize it yet.

Getting back to the topic, I find the game good overall, although it's train-based not metro-based (nV wanted to show off with some landscapes). Personally, I prefer a game installed from disk the classic way.
If I'm to install all clients from every game company that I want to play a game from, I'd end up with quite a big mess in my PC. So I'll just use steam if really needed instead and I'll uninstall the specific clients like EA's or any other after completing a game in favor of a cleaner system.


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 1, 2019)




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