# Researchers are testing concrete that could charge your EV while you drive



## P4-630 (Jul 26, 2021)

Magnetized cement promises reasonably priced, high efficiency wireless charging.






Roads that can charge electric cars or buses while you drive aren't a new concept, but so far the technology has been relatively expensive and inefficient.
However, Indiana's Department of Transport (INDOT) has announced that it's testing a new type of cement with embedded magnetized particles that could one day provide efficient, 
high-speed charging at "standard roadbuilding costs," _Autoblog_ has reported.





With funding from the National Science Foundation (NSF), INDOT has teamed with Purdue University and German company Magment on the project.
They'll carry out the research in three phases, first testing if the magnetized cement (called "magment," naturally) will work in the lab, then trying it out on a quarter-mile section of road. 

In a brochure, Magment said its product delivers "record-breaking wireless transmission efficiency [at] up to 95 percent," 
adding that it can be built at "standard road-building installation costs" and that it's "robust and vandalism-proof."
The company also notes that slabs with the embedded ferrite particles could be built locally, presumably under license. 

The final phase sounds ambitious, with INDOT saying it would "test the innovative concrete’s capacity to charge heavy trucks operation at high power (200 kilowatts and above)."
If the final quarter-mile test track is a success, INDOT will use the tech to electrify an undermined segment of public interstate in Indiana. 

Powering heavy trucks directly from the road without any pollution at an affordable price would be an environmental breakthrough, but there's still a lot of work to do to prove it works.
Plenty of other similar efforts are underway, as the UK has committed around $780 million for under-road charging research, for example.
Sweden has also tested slot-car like technology that would contain an electrified "rail" embedded into roads. This latest efforts sounds far less complicated, provided it lives up to Magment's claims.


Interesting, however I think it will take many years till most people drive an electric car in the first place, they could start using this technology already for any new roads IMO.


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## dorsetknob (Jul 26, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> Sweden has also tested slot-car like technology that would contain an electrified "rail" embedded into roads


Anyone remember "Airfix Slot cars or the more Sucessfull Scaletrix Cars"
Who would have thought that full size Slot cars may one day be a reality


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## Rithsom (Jul 26, 2021)

This kind of reminds me of Solar Roadways or whatever the concept was called a few years back. Basically, the idea was to replace most pavement on roads, in parking lots, etc. with specially-designed solar panels that could handle the weight of a car driving on top of them. Considering that it is hard enough to build and maintain solar farms as it is, the Solar Roadways project didn't really gain much traction due to the insane engineering and building costs required. The time to ROI was way too far out.

Although magnetized concrete looks like it might be cheaper to integrate into roads than solar panels, and although the tech ultimately serves a different purpose, I have doubts about its possible efficiency or effectiveness. Besides, who will pay for the energy needed to magnetize the concrete? Surely some vehicle tracking system needs to be put in place in order to bill those who drive their cars on the road the longest. There's a good chance that this will flop just like Solar Roadways, albeit for different reasons.


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## Shrek (Jul 26, 2021)

How does one charge for such usage?


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## 64K (Jul 26, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> How does one charge for such usage?



Probably have some kind of meter in your car and get auto-billed once a month.


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## xorbe (Jul 26, 2021)

Road surfaces take SO much abuse ... and will there be emergency rewire teams when cars go up in flames and literally vaporize the road and fancy recharge pads?  Modern high quality asphalt is not exactly simple, but embedding electrical into it is going to be a nightmare imho.


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## Steevo (Jul 26, 2021)

So they are saying they have enough power to charge all those hundreds of electric cars and everyone else will pay for the infrastructure (government money is just taxpayer money)

Sounds like a win for those who can afford electric cars at the expense of those who cannot.


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## R-T-B (Jul 26, 2021)

It sounds like magnets in the tires and road working against each other to create a magnetic field and thus electricity, there aren't literally wires in the road or any electrical infrastructure requirements if I understand this right.

It's a good idea to minimize electrical losses, but calling it "charging" might be a stretch.  It's more like capturing energy that would otherwise be lost.  Still not a bad idea.  And I may be completely misunderstanding this, the article is vague.


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## Steevo (Jul 26, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> It sounds like magnets in the tires and road working against each other to create a magnetic field and thus electricity, there aren't literally wires in the road or any electrical infrastructure requirements if I understand this right.
> 
> It's a good idea to minimize electrical losses, but calling it "charging" might be a stretch.  It's more like capturing energy that would otherwise be lost.  Still not a bad idea.  And I may be completely misunderstanding this, the article is vague.


Sounds more like steered beam wireless charging. The effects of using magnets to charge an electric vehicle (which would increase its rolling resistance negating the charging effect except on downhill where they already use regenative braking) would be a net loss, but then again solar roadways were taken seriously


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## R-T-B (Jul 26, 2021)

Steevo said:


> where they already use regenative braking


I was thinking to improve regenerative breaking but you raise a valid point it would hurt anything else.

Solar roadways were taken seriously by facebook users and social media and not much else.

If it is like you describe it'll likely be metered electric similar to a toll system.


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## Caring1 (Jul 27, 2021)

Most likely similar to induction charging which has already been suggested in the past for vehicles.


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## joemama (Jul 27, 2021)

Sounds too optimistic to me, how are they going to limit the inducted current to only the required components instead of everything conductive within the car?


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 27, 2021)

Cancer more like it, imo the idea is stupid

Battery vehicles are stupid


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## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Cancer more like it, imo the idea is stupid


Ah yes, electricity, the main cause of cancer.


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## Bones (Jul 27, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Ah yes, electricity, the main cause of cancer.


You never know - Or maybe sterility with such prolonged exposure to strong magnetic fields?

Go ahead and take the chance if you want, I have no personal plans for doing that myself.


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## Mussels (Jul 27, 2021)

Throw it in at traffic lights where vehicles are idling a lot consuming power, and you already have the infrastructure in place for electricity and regular maintenace


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## n-ster (Jul 27, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Cancer more like it, imo the idea is stupid
> 
> Battery vehicles are stupid



EVs are going to take over the world whether you like it or not. "Battery vehicles" are better solution for a car than gas vehicles even if you disregard the environment benefits, better acceleration, can preheat/cool even in an enclosed space, so much cheaper to run and so much cheaper to maintain, brakes last forever. Don't need to go to a gas station your car is just always full, or if not, then a 15-30 minute charging session at a fast charger or a 3 hours at a slow charger once a week would work, and many businesses offer free charging as an incentive for you to come (and spend more time in their store). Any other vehicle will be better as a plug-in hybrid than just a gas car. Even if you have nowhere to plug, plug-ins will still be more efficient than standard hybrids considering the battery size, and you get the benefit of having extra torque and horsepower; see the RAV4 Prime. Pretty sure fuel exhaust is more cancerous. I feel like Hydrogen would be a good compromise eventually, and much better for trucks, planes and the like.



Steevo said:


> So they are saying they have enough power to charge all those hundreds of electric cars and everyone else will pay for the infrastructure (government money is just taxpayer money)
> 
> Sounds like a win for those who can afford electric cars at the expense of those who cannot.



No, governments like to take money, they will tax EVs yearly through registration and have the users pay for it. EVs are getting more affordable, you could get a 2012 i-Miev for 3K. I'd argue that EVs are cheap when you look at it mid to long term, fuel savings and low maintenance. In urban areas, where most people live, and where you drive at slower speeds and break a lot, EVs are crazy efficient.

Also remember that most countries are investing to lower their emissions, having people go electric is probably somewhat efficient, especially compare to carbon-capture obviously. This sounds like induction charging for sure, I highly doubt this will make sense anytime soon, unless new cars will have the hardware built-in and it becomes universal, I don't see how owners will invest in hardware to be compatible on top of paying electric rates that are likely much higher than what they pay at home, where there car gets charged, usually at lower rates during the night.

I guess I could see this work for big cities with a lot of public transit, in bus lanes and bus stops, the transition to 100% electric buses is accelerating


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## Bones (Jul 27, 2021)

n-ster said:


> EVs are going to take over the world whether you like it or not. "Battery vehicles" are better solution for a car than gas vehicles even if you disregard the environment benefits, better acceleration, can preheat/cool even in an enclosed space, so much cheaper to run and so much cheaper to maintain, brakes last forever. Don't need to go to a gas station your car is just always full, or if not, then a 15-30 minute charging session at a fast charger or a 3 hours at a slow charger once a week would work, and many businesses offer free charging as an incentive for you to come (and spend more time in their store). Any other vehicle will be better as a plug-in hybrid than just a gas car. Even if you have nowhere to plug, plug-ins will still be more efficient than standard hybrids considering the battery size, and you get the benefit of having extra torque and horsepower; see the RAV4 Prime. Pretty sure fuel exhaust is more cancerous. I feel like Hydrogen would be a good compromise eventually, and much better for trucks, planes and the like.
> 
> No, governments like to take money, they will tax EVs yearly through registration and have the users pay for it. EVs are getting more affordable, you could get a 2012 i-Miev for 3K. I'd argue that EVs are cheap when you look at it mid to long term, fuel savings and low maintenance. In urban areas, where most people live, and where you drive at slower speeds and break a lot, EVs are crazy efficient.
> 
> ...


Some of the above is fine, other parts of it I don't agree with as if electric is the magic cure-all *which it's not*.

Certainly *NOT* cheaper to maintain and fix and also not be as reliable too at times.
I used to work on electric industrial vehicles to know this as fact. You'd also be suprised just how frequently they will quit and for the dumbest of reasons too, some of these not even a real issue for it but it just quits and that's it.
No fixing it yourself either to save money - You WILL pay.

And I'm sorry, charging it just once a week isn't going to cut it for many because each person's situation isn't the same as yours.
Besides....

I mean really....
It's not like you're Ben Franklin with a kite, string and key tied off to what could be called a gasfill, just waiting for a storm to come along and fill 'er up.
And then you have times when the power goes out right when you'd need that charge for the morning trip and I'm sorry - Ain't nobody got time to be sitting for 3 damned hours at a charging station in the middle of a roadtrip.
Electrics have advantages, that's true but we are NOWHERE near all of this being feasable to just "Go for it". Alot more work and research has to be done to make the tech good enough so all the previous I"ve mentioned is a minor thing at worst.

I know this is about concrete that supposedly charges a battery as it goes but at the same time, that's not quite reality yet either.

You're talking about such things that's probrably becoming mainstream years from now and I seriously doubt by 2030 as some are saying, even 2040 for alot of it is a stretch at this point.
For things like the Metro and such electrics are fine and have been in use for over a century but those also have fixed ways of supplying power, costly to maintain and even dangerous in some ways.
Those are different in so many ways than what we, as individuals would have to use to get around.


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## n-ster (Jul 27, 2021)

Bones said:


> Some of the above is fine, other parts of it I don't agree with as if electric is the magic cure-all *which it's not*.


Not for every form of transport, but certainly for the majority. I don't expect a cruise-ship to be fully electric for example.


Bones said:


> Certainly *NOT* cheaper to maintain and fix and also not be as reliable too at times.
> I used to work on electric industrial vehicles to know this as fact. You'd also be suprised just how frequently they will quit and for the dumbest of reasons too, some of these not even a real issue for it but it just quits and that's it.
> No fixing it yourself either to save money - You WILL pay.


I didn't know about reliability for industrial vehicles, some industries are going to be harder to convert or not see enough benefits. There's also just plain fleecing in many industries. You'll find that electric consumer vehicles and public transit buses do save a lot on maintenance, dealerships will sell x amount of years maintenance packages at much lower cost than for a gas car, there are simply less parts in an EV, and electric motors are usually highly reliable. Even wear items like brakes/brake fluid and chassis durability due to aluminium flat undersides are cheaper. It's true that EV maintenance isn't nearly as mature as gas car maintenance, but it's getting there, there is a decent DIY car conversion community. I doubt you could do a DIY electric to gas car conversion!


Bones said:


> And I'm sorry, charging it just once a week isn't going to cut it for many because each person's situation isn't the same as yours.


Actually, most people live in urban areas. For someone who has a garage, it's a no-brainer, you're topped up all the time, unless you do more than 250+ miles everyday. My point was that even for someone who can't charge because they don't have parking in their apartment building or don't have a driveway or garage, it's still doable.


Bones said:


> It's not like you're Ben Franklin with a kite, string and key tied off to what could be called a gasfill, just waiting for a storm to come along and fill 'er up.
> And then you have times when the power goes out right when you'd need that charge for the morning trip and I'm sorry - Ain't no body got time to be sitting for 3 damned hours at a charging station in the middle of a roadtrip.
> 
> Electrics have advantages, that's true but we are NOWHERE near all of this being feasable to just "Go for it". Alot more work and research has to be done to make the tech good enough so all the previous I"ve mentioned is a minor thing at worst.


When's the last time you ran out of gas? How likely is someone with a driveway or garage going to run out of electricity? CAA and AAA have trucks with Level 2 and Level 3 charging. It's not like you'll be 100 miles from a charger, all you need is 10-15 miles. All along highways your charging is Level 3 charging, my car only charges at 50KW as they haven't upgraded the charging speed since 2013, but modern EVs have 100KW or 150KW charging, which would be 150-200 miles per half hour of charging. Tesla Model 3 charges much faster at 250KW, you get about 280 miles in 28 minutes, so for road trips are are 600-700 miles or less, you only need to stop once, maybe go pee, grab a coffee, or have lunch.

The transition is not going to go from 0-100 right away, but it WILL get there. 

My experience is with my BMW i3S, it does have a 2.4 gallon tank to run a little generator that adds 85 miles, since my car only has 115 miles electric range, and Montreal winters can get really cold, but it was because I didn't have the ability to charge at home. An average EV today tends to be about 250 miles of range.


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## Bones (Jul 27, 2021)

n-ster said:


> 1: Not for every form of transport, but certainly for the majority. I don't expect a cruise-ship to be fully electric for example.
> 
> 2: I didn't know about reliability for industrial vehicles, some industries are going to be harder to convert or not see enough benefits. *There's also just plain fleecing in many industries*.
> 
> ...


*1:* Nor do I and with each type of transportation you will see exceptions for it or against. The only "Real" sensible solution is to go by the situation for each application and go with what's best.

*2:* You got that right! Based on the industry and it's setting electronics simply can't handle the conditions it would be operating under such as extremes in temperature, dust, vibration, shock, and alot of other things. I've worked on them under all these conditions and each brings it's own set of headaches, none of which are easy to deal with at times.
You can do things to help them deal with these conditions but they still suffer.... And so do you with the headache of dealing with it.

*3:* I used to work at a dealer to know better than this..... The reality of it is FAR different than you realize. The maintenance packages for example are full of "Things" that won't be covered for various (BS) reasons and that's why the dealer offers those - The terms of such a package are actually stacked _against_ the customer so chances are they will have to pay.
Ain't no free lunch here.

*4:* Alot of this goes back to point 3, the cost of that ( Consumables) is wrapped up and included in the package but you never see it.
BTW I wasn't aware a vehicle chassis itself was supposed to be a _wearable_ item... That's actually part of the vehicle's structure you know.
As for electric to gas conversions, yes you can IF you wanted to and if you're creative enough.

*5:* I can't see that as being doable to the point of practicallity in every situation no matter what.
Parked on the street and needing a charge? I don't know "How" they'd do that but can guarantee it won't be via extension cord because there is a real chance these days someone will grab it and run, leaving you stranded if you tried it that way.

And while the majority do tend to live in urban areas that doesn't mean "Most", that can be a 55/45 split of the population for example with 55% urban, 45% rural.
You can't leave the rural guys out either, again not every situation is ideal or the same as you may think and frankly that's discrimination based on where they'd live.

A way of doing things has to be capable of dealing with all of it like what it's replacing does, not just select bits and pieces of the problem leaving gaps to be filled in later if at all.

*6:* That's been YEARS ago and I keep an eye on my gauge.
As for outlets, you can't always rely on that either due to power outages and no, many do not have a garage or even what could be called a driveway making access to a plug or outlet a problem.

Placing the burden of charging an electric like this on people with no support for it is only going to lead to alot of dead, stranded vehicles right where they sit. You can't guarantee 10-20 miles down the road is going to have power either.
This is true, esp after things like a natural disaster such as a hurricane.
You can go for weeks, in some cases months before you get it back and I know your current charge isn't going to last *that long, *even if it's at 100% when it hits.

*7:* Now this is something I don't about, when you say "Level 3 Charging"....

And the problem with the rest is as before - I'm not going to be sitting for 30 minutes, an hour or even more just waiting on a charge to finish. My time is worth something to me and I don't have much of it to waste twiddling my thumbs. In many cases time IS money too and waiting for the charger just doesn't work.
With gas you just fill and go, that simple and way less standing around waiting too.

I try to make good use of what time I've got because I already know I don't have too much of that left anyway, certainly not enough that I'll ever see all the electric stuff become mainstream.
It _could_ happen but I doubt it and if I do, I probrably woudn't care by then anyway.


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## Steevo (Jul 27, 2021)

n-ster said:


> EVs are going to take over the world whether you like it or not. "Battery vehicles" are better solution for a car than gas vehicles even if you disregard the environment benefits, better acceleration, can preheat/cool even in an enclosed space, so much cheaper to run and so much cheaper to maintain, brakes last forever. Don't need to go to a gas station your car is just always full, or if not, then a 15-30 minute charging session at a fast charger or a 3 hours at a slow charger once a week would work, and many businesses offer free charging as an incentive for you to come (and spend more time in their store). Any other vehicle will be better as a plug-in hybrid than just a gas car. Even if you have nowhere to plug, plug-ins will still be more efficient than standard hybrids considering the battery size, and you get the benefit of having extra torque and horsepower; see the RAV4 Prime. Pretty sure fuel exhaust is more cancerous. I feel like Hydrogen would be a good compromise eventually, and much better for trucks, planes and the like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I only see electric transport working efficiently in cities and for mass transit, and only if we can get ourselves ready for better nuclear base load with solar and wind supplementing where they are feasible.

Are they more "green" or better? No, for a plethora of reasons. 
#1 They have to be manufactured, which creates more emissions than they will save VS just driving what we already have and use that is efficient. 
#2 Not all electricity comes from Nuclear which is the "greenest" source. 
#3 Increased grid load means more installations of dumb things like natural gas turbines to cover up the peak demand periods. 
#4 Battery energy density is still piss poor compared to liquid fuels. 
#5 Battery replacements are a joke
#6 Moving pollution to countries without regulations is just throwing our shit in a neighbors yard. 
#7 Carbon credits are what make Tesla go, not electric vehicles. Same for every other electric vehicle manufactured. 
#8 Installing infrastructure has to count against their footprint.
#9 Wait until the more ignorant masses get EVs and we will see how much safety and maintenance needs improved. 

When we can solve 5 of these electric vehicles will be the better choice for the masses.


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## Shrek (Jul 27, 2021)

Steevo said:


> #1 They have to be manufactured, which creates more emissions than they will save VS just driving what we already have and use that is efficient.


Where is the evidence backing up this claim?


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## Bones (Jul 27, 2021)

Steevo said:


> #1 They have to be manufactured, which creates more emissions than they will save VS just driving what we already have and use that is efficient.





Andy Shiekh said:


> Where is the evidence backing up this claim?


That's because this isn't an episode of "Bewitched" with a cute blonde wiggling her nose to make them appear... Like magic.

The materials have to be mined and that causes what some eco-guys call a problem, fuel must be expended in this operation, waste of course is generated be it in the soil that's not used, materials used for mining it like metals for equipment or tools, you also have a potential issue from the mining called erosion too.
That's only the start of it. 

I used to work in a mining operation years ago and you'd be suprised at how much goes into digging a hole.


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## Steevo (Jul 27, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Where is the evidence backing up this claim?



As stated above, EVs aren't built out of thin air and magic dust. 









						Electric cars may be the future, but they're still critically flawed in a key area
					

Lithium-ion batteries require a lot of energy to produce. So, too, does the extraction and refinement of metals like lithium, nickel, and cobalt.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




Even if we assume they are the same as a petrol car for manufacturing, if you already own a newer petrol car you are doing more damage to buy a new EV VS just driving what you own and using it responsibly.


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## Shrek (Jul 27, 2021)

"Studies have shown that in the US, Europe, and in China, producing an electric vehicle creates more greenhouse-gas emissions than producing an equivalent gas-powered vehicle."

which is quite different from your claim

"They have to be manufactured, which creates more emissions than they will save VS just driving what we already have and use that is efficient."


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## n-ster (Jul 27, 2021)

Steevo said:


> I only see electric transport working efficiently in cities and for mass transit, and only if we can get ourselves ready for better nuclear base load with solar and wind supplementing where they are feasible.
> 
> Are they more "green" or better? No, for a plethora of reasons.
> #1 They have to be manufactured, which creates more emissions than they will save VS just driving what we already have and use that is efficient.
> ...



I'd agree that today it isn't a one-size fits all at all, but it is still trending towards mass adoption. Urban is 75+% of the population for NA, EU, AUS, NZ, Japan.

#1 Agreed, buying a new car will create more emissions, assuming the car you own isn't a gas guzzler. Still, throughout its lifetime the EV will create a lot less emissions. My BMW i3S' chassis is made from carbon-fiber, and the energy to make it was hydropower in Washington State. They gone so far as to use recycled materials for almost everything, Eucalyptus wood as it's a more "green" and renewable wood, leather dyed with olive leaf oil or something like that, they used as little amount of material as possible to shave a few ounces here and there etc. They also designed it to be somewhat modular so they could keep the same chassis and be able to easily swap to higher density batteries

#2 Hydro, Solar & Wind are going to be miles better than NG and Coal. Cost of switching to Renewables is plummeting, even cheaper than traditional methods, and much of the world is transitioning to them. This means that your EV will get better environmentally over time, vs a gas vehicle getting worse

#3 New grid energy is mostly renewables, using mostly renewables with a few NG plants to cover variation is going to be way better than the old ways still. Don't forget that the majority of the charging will be done during off-peak, especially if there is peak vs off-peak rates. Hopefully one day batteries will be cheap enough to take over NG plants

#4 Does it matter? I know that in the US there's a bigger driving/roadtrip culture, but that also means that the average American family tends to have more than 1 car and having a garage or driveway. If you have a house, having the commuter car be electric or Plug-in Hybrid makes a ton of sense in that situation.

#5 Why would you need to replace the battery? They all have 8-10 year warranties and it's not like they stop working, you'll just have lower range, maybe 20% less after 8-10 years? Plus old car batteries can be reused for other purposes where energy density/weight is not a factor

#6 I mean, it's not like we produce the materials for gas cars in-house and in a green way... Building EVs doesn't have to mean moving moving pollution. Many cars are made in SK, Japan, China... If anything, EVs being targeted towards the environmentally-conscious will be more inclined to limit the emissions to produce the vehicle.

#7 Isn't oil/gas heavily subsidized and more and more supplied by fracking operations?

#8 The beauty of an EV is that for many people, the infrastructure is right there, in your home. I'm sure the infrastructure for maintaining this level of oil production is huge, oil spills, refineries, trucking and trains to move it to where you need it, an ungodly amount of gas stations, many of which are open 24/7. There has to be a footprint, but idk if you can call it more than just keeping the status-quo

#9 The ignorant already tinker inside their gas vehicles, it's going to be much safer for an EV, all you need to deal with is pulling on the High Voltage disconnect.

On the topic of electric outages, your average EV with 250 miles of range will already be topped up if you charge at home, I'm sure you can manage to get to a charging station. Is the US really that bad for outages?! It felt like the Texas debacle was an issue of lax regulations. Here in QC 99% of our electricity is made from Hydro power (we even call our electric bill the hydro bill), and the grid is very reliable even in rural areas. In winter, if there were outages for a week, thousands would die, most of our heating is electric.

Sorry if I'm annoying, I love discussing the topic of pros and cons of EVs lol, you can tell me to shut up


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## ThrashZone (Jul 27, 2021)

Hi,
Yep battery tollroad and the battery car.. owners can pay for it all win-win


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## n-ster (Jul 27, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> "Studies have shown that in the US, Europe, and in China, producing an electric vehicle creates more greenhouse-gas emissions than producing an equivalent gas-powered vehicle."
> 
> which is quite different from your claim
> 
> "They have to be manufactured, which creates more emissions than they will save VS just driving what we already have and use that is efficient."



I think the issue is that in the short term, certainly the first few years of the car's life, keeping a 5-year old car would generate a lot less emissions than buying an EV, perhaps with the exception of something like the i3 that is purposefully built as green. There's still a lot to a car than just its engine, using new materials, transporting the car to you etc makes a lot of emissions all over the world.

Long term the EV wins out. Arguably, it is very important to keep emissions low today considering there is a world effort to lower emissions for the future


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## Shrek (Jul 27, 2021)

I think the world needs to stop thinking short term and start thinking long term.

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."


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## Bones (Jul 27, 2021)

n-ster said:


> #9 The* ignorant* already tinker inside their gas vehicles, it's going to be much safer for an EV, all you need to deal with is pulling on the High Voltage disconnect.


I hope the part about "Ignorant" wasn't meant to be insulting towards anyone.
Also, pulling the disconnect alone doesn't make it completely safe.


n-ster said:


> On the topic of electric outages, your average EV with 250 miles of range will already be topped up if you charge at home, I'm sure you can manage to get to a charging station. Is the US really that bad for outages?! It felt like the Texas debacle was an issue of lax regulations. Here in QC 99% of our electricity is made from Hydro power (we even call our electric bill the hydro bill), and the grid is very reliable even in rural areas. In winter, if there were outages for a week, thousands would die, most of our heating is electric.
> 
> Sorry if I'm annoying, I love discussing the topic of pros and cons of EVs lol, you can tell me to shut up


Speaking of charging stations after a storm, do you honestly think you'd be the only one with that idea out of everyone around you?
Really?
You think lines at the pump are bad - Only take a couple of minutes per vehicle for it to top off and move on, just imagine how long that wait would be with an average wait of 1 hour per vehicle in line..... Even 30 minutes per vehicle would be beyond insane and would be compounded if the power supply to that area is limited. If a charging area doesn't have all it's little stations in working order or with power to charge, you should have brought a tent to camp out with too because you ain't going anywhere, anytime soon.

BTW the state of things where you are does not apply everywhere else.
A storm like a hurricane can knock out these stations, the little concrete things and all else that's in it's path. 
If you've ever been in a hurricane before you'd know.


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## Steevo (Jul 27, 2021)

n-ster said:


> I'd agree that today it isn't a one-size fits all at all, but it is still trending towards mass adoption. Urban is 75+% of the population for NA, EU, AUS, NZ, Japan.
> 
> #1 Agreed, buying a new car will create more emissions, assuming the car you own isn't a gas guzzler. Still, throughout its lifetime the EV will create a lot less emissions. My BMW i3S' chassis is made from carbon-fiber, and the energy to make it was hydropower in Washington State. They gone so far as to use recycled materials for almost everything, Eucalyptus wood as it's a more "green" and renewable wood, leather dyed with olive leaf oil or something like that, they used as little amount of material as possible to shave a few ounces here and there etc. They also designed it to be somewhat modular so they could keep the same chassis and be able to easily swap to higher density batteries
> 
> ...



I am all about discussions.

There is already way too much biased BS out there, for example, the "subsidies" that are counted in one study are listed as normal tax write offs that every business uses as the cost of doing business. I haven't found a clear report on oil/coal specific subsidies other than ones explicitly designed to reduce the carbon footprint. Do I mind $3-4 per gallon fuel? Not really, I have a company vehicle and our cars are 30+MPG vehicles.

As far as the safetly of EV the batteries are and will remain the weakest point, the next is the grid and irresponsible ignorant politicians killing nuclear when it truly is the only viable answer to most of our issues. Reliable power is a requirement in our age, it also has to be affordable. Our house is geothermal heat pump heated and cooled in Montana and we are spending 140K on upgrades to make it more energy efficient (and prettier) and so we can collect the rain water for use in the fire season (110F the other day here and dry as a popcorn fart). When its -40F here I really don't want to have to go buy electric heaters and a generator to prevent our home from freezing, or when its 100+F I don't want to have to run a generator to keep the fridge, freezer, and some fans running and a solar array to run the split phase pumps and system costs more than the utilities for 12+ years of use. Its still way more efficient to install a few smaller nuclear plants at existing coal stations that are being phased out and it keeps the jobs and local economies alive. When we reach that milestone EV's (especially short distance smaller batteries) will become more achievable. Hell with a surplus of electricity we could start pumping carbon out of the atmosphere with the excess energy.


----------



## n-ster (Jul 27, 2021)

Steevo said:


> I am all about discussions.
> 
> There is already way too much biased BS out there, for example, the "subsidies" that are counted in one study are listed as normal tax write offs that every business uses as the cost of doing business. I haven't found a clear report on oil/coal specific subsidies other than ones explicitly designed to reduce the carbon footprint. Do I mind $3-4 per gallon fuel? Not really, I have a company vehicle and our cars are 30+MPG vehicles.
> 
> As far as the safetly of EV the batteries are and will remain the weakest point, the next is the grid and irresponsible ignorant politicians killing nuclear when it truly is the only viable answer to most of our issues. Reliable power is a requirement in our age, it also has to be affordable. Our house is *geothermal heat pump heated and cooled* in Montana and we are spending 140K on upgrades to make it more energy efficient (and prettier) and so we can collect the rain water for use in the fire season (110F the other day here and dry as a popcorn fart). When its -40F here I really don't want to have to go buy electric heaters and a generator to prevent our home from freezing, or when its 100+F I don't want to have to run a generator to keep the fridge, freezer, and some fans running and a solar array to run the split phase pumps and system costs more than the utilities for 12+ years of use. Its still way more efficient to install a few smaller nuclear plants at existing coal stations that are being phased out and it keeps the jobs and local economies alive. When we reach that milestone EV's (especially short distance smaller batteries) will become more achievable. Hell with a *surplus of electricity *we could start pumping carbon out of the atmosphere with the excess energy.



We installed Geothermal at my parents house! It must have cost 10K more than a normal heat pump, but holy crap is it efficient. In 5 years we saved something like 5-10k compared to a normal heat pump, but Montreal's weather is favorable for savings with geo. Also did a huge reno to insulate and whatnot, Heating and cooling went from 6000$/yr to 1200$/yr. This month our Geothermal system went kaput, they used something called the DX system which uses copper pipes and refrigerant, but apparently the system is flawed because the ground doesn't conduct the heat away fast enough which leads to the lines freezing and it creates enough pressure to rupture the copper 

In Quebec we actually have surplus, we make a bunch of money selling it to NY, even if it is only at 2-3 cents per KWh. After taxes and fees, we pay 7c per KWh (5.6 cents USD) for residential and it's the same price all over the province, even to remote areas. After the first 1200KWh per month, I think they add 2 cents. If you use Natural Gas or another form of non-electric heating on days under -12C then you get around 30% off. We have a robust reliable grid, 5 years ago around 10 000 people in our province didn't have electricity for 48 hours and it was a huge deal. Hydro Quebec does about 3 billion Canadian dollars in profit every year.

All that to say that I definitely have a bias towards electric and we have it good here, so perhaps I don't understand certain issues. I did live in NJ and South Carolina and France for 4 years each but that's the limit of my experiences


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2021)

Bones said:


> You never know - Or maybe sterility with such prolonged exposure to strong magnetic fields?
> 
> Go ahead and take the chance if you want, I have no personal plans for doing that myself.


You fear the unknown.  I like new tech until I am told a rational reason to fear it.  "It's new" and "you never know" isn't one.

Cows cause cancer.  I mean, you never know?


----------



## Bones (Jul 27, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> You fear the unknown.  I like new tech until I am told a rational reason to fear it.  "It's new" and "you never know" isn't one.
> 
> Cows cause cancer.  I mean, you never know?


I'd prefer for it to remain an unknown, lest all doubt be removed along with whatever it's damaged.

I could see these concrete things eventually being found to have such an effect on a few.

And speaking of the cows causing cancer, ask any cancer researcher and they'll tell you it ALL causes cancer, just in different amounts and different things to different folks in different situations.
Hotdog? Yes.
Watermelon? Yes.
That cheap suntan lotion you used? Yes.
FruitLoops? Yes.
Pron? Yes.
And the list goes on.... because it can cause cancer too.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Jul 28, 2021)

This sounds like a waste of taxpayers money...


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 28, 2021)

Bones said:


> I'd prefer for it to remain an unknown, lest all doubt be removed along with whatever it's damaged.



Sometimes I wonder if this is really a tech forum...  I mean with that attitude there is little hope of advance.



Bones said:


> And speaking of the cows causing cancer, ask any cancer researcher and they'll tell you it ALL causes cancer, just in different amounts and different things to different folks in different situations.


Good, you caught the irony.



Bones said:


> Pron? Yes.


I hate to admit I know this but actually the correllation between prostate cancer and porn intake is negative.


----------



## Bones (Jul 28, 2021)

It's a preference, not an absolute. 
I'd rather not monkey around with strong magnetic fields from these concrete squares, blocks or whatever they are. 
Doesn't help in my case (For real) I've got an implant that can't be around strong magnetic fields or it may malfunction which could be bad. I have to stay away from welding arcs, generators and the like and that was the big reason I no longer do what I was doing for a living.


----------



## Caring1 (Jul 28, 2021)

Bones said:


> It's a preference, not an absolute.
> I'd rather not monkey around with strong magnetic fields from these concrete squares, blocks or whatever they are.
> Doesn't help in my case (For real) I've got an implant that can't be around strong magnetic fields or it may malfunction which could be bad. I have to stay away from welding arcs, generators and the like and that was the big reason I no longer do what I was doing for a living.


Good point.
I'm scheduled to get mine in around 4 weeks and was warned about MRI machines, but you made me question other magnetic fields, even electric motors in EV's are based on magnetic fields.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 28, 2021)

Bones said:


> It's a preference, not an absolute.
> I'd rather not monkey around with strong magnetic fields from these concrete squares, blocks or whatever they are.
> Doesn't help in my case (For real) I've got an implant that can't be around strong magnetic fields or it may malfunction which could be bad. I have to stay away from welding arcs, generators and the like and that was the big reason I no longer do what I was doing for a living.


That's fair.

I have a Titanium plate in my arm.  Not a good conductor I guess, no fun radio stations yet.


----------



## Bones (Jul 28, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> That's fair.
> 
> I have a Titanium plate in my arm.  Not a good conductor I guess, no fun radio stations yet.



You ain't holding it right........ 

I know one thing, this ever goes off (Difibulator) I'll know it.



R-T-B said:


> I hate to admit I know this but actually the correllation between prostate cancer and porn _intake_ is negative



Depends on the "Method" of intake.... and I've NO plans of testing _that_ theory. 



Caring1 said:


> Good point.
> I'm scheduled to get mine in around 4 weeks and was warned about MRI machines, but you made me question other magnetic fields, even electric motors in EV's are based on magnetic fields.


Yep - Depending on the one you get that could be the same state I'm in except nowadays these are way more compatable, I've even heard you can have an MRI done after it's implanted.
Mine is too old for all that, maybe I'll get an upgrade come new battery time.

Be sure to know what you have by model and such, then do the research like I had to about it all.
I have to stay away from generators, at least 20 ft from a welder's arc and other fun stuff.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 28, 2021)

Bones said:


> Depends on the "Method" of intake.... and I've NO plans of testing _that_ theory.


Well yeah.  It's all online nowadays though.  I guess it's probably carcengenic if you find an old VHS and eat it, but you are just doing us all a favor at that point.  Call it recycling.


----------



## Bones (Jul 28, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Well yeah.  It's all online nowadays though.  I guess it's probably carcengenic if you find an old VHS and eat it, but you are just doing us all a favor at that point.  *Call it recycling.*


There are some things you should _never_ try to save, just let it go..... 

Speaking of that I'm wondering after these squares are finally retired for whatever reason if they could be recycled too. 
I know the stuff inside that makes them work should be reuseable I'd think.


----------



## Steevo (Jul 28, 2021)

n-ster said:


> We installed Geothermal at my parents house! It must have cost 10K more than a normal heat pump, but holy crap is it efficient. In 5 years we saved something like 5-10k compared to a normal heat pump, but Montreal's weather is favorable for savings with geo. Also did a huge reno to insulate and whatnot, Heating and cooling went from 6000$/yr to 1200$/yr. This month our Geothermal system went kaput, they used something called the DX system which uses copper pipes and refrigerant, but apparently the system is flawed because the ground doesn't conduct the heat away fast enough which leads to the lines freezing and it creates enough pressure to rupture the copper
> 
> In Quebec we actually have surplus, we make a bunch of money selling it to NY, even if it is only at 2-3 cents per KWh. After taxes and fees, we pay 7c per KWh (5.6 cents USD) for residential and it's the same price all over the province, even to remote areas. After the first 1200KWh per month, I think they add 2 cents. If you use Natural Gas or another form of non-electric heating on days under -12C then you get around 30% off. We have a robust reliable grid, 5 years ago around 10 000 people in our province didn't have electricity for 48 hours and it was a huge deal. Hydro Quebec does about 3 billion Canadian dollars in profit every year.
> 
> All that to say that I definitely have a bias towards electric and we have it good here, so perhaps I don't understand certain issues. I did live in NJ and South Carolina and France for 4 years each but that's the limit of my experiences


Mine is 1500ish feet of heavy poly piping, it was installed in the late 90’s and has had the scroll compressor replaced and I replaced the circulator pumps due to a leak and added more methanol to the ground loop as during the coldest it was forming ice that resulted in the death of a pump.
It will keep 4000Sqft 68F when it’s 109 outside on the main floor, and we usually let it dip to 61F at night and stay 66F on the main floor (58F in my office). For $280 a month in electric bills. The house we rented cost that much and could never stay as cool.

The winter our bill has been 600+ as it still has single pane huge windows everywhere and the boost heat (10Kw grid heat) runs when it’s below -10F unless we want to keep fires going in the fireplaces. New Pella premium windows should help drop that, plus wrapping with tyvek and dark roof and siding.

When I get time this winter I am going to install more Thermocouples and let the computer decide when to run things like boost heat and the hot water charge pump so we can move to a on demand tankless heater but allow the geothermal to still preheat water and then use that during the cold of night to balance out ground loop temps.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Jul 28, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> Magnetized cement promises reasonably priced, high efficiency wireless charging.
> 
> View attachment 209916
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing anything concrete coming out of this... at least not anytime soon. Besides, it still takes a lot longer to recharge with electricity than it does to pump fuel into a tank.


----------



## n-ster (Jul 29, 2021)

MentalAcetylide said:


> I'm not seeing anything concrete coming out of this... at least not anytime soon. *Besides, it still takes a lot longer to recharge with electricity than it does to pump fuel into a tank.*


That isn't, and never will be, the goal of EVs. With an EV, you have a full tank everyday, and you don't have to gas it up, your gas station is your home. For now this is limited to people who can charge at their house, their work, or in an appt or condo parking where it is possible to have a plug. These limitations will have solutions in-time.

The only point of having really fast charging is either as a backup, or for long roadtrips where you'll have to stop anyways for coffee/bathroom/stretch. It's not like a gas station where you have to be near the car, you just park, plug it, and go to the restroom or wtv.

I'm going to to do some maths for myself to see how much of a hassle charging is during a roadtrip. Something like the Ioniq 5 will gain about 68 miles in 5 minutes (~25%) which is roughly the time to fill up a gas car; for 188 miles it's 18 minutes (~70%). With a range of 269 miles, you might do 230 miles, assuming 69 mph average (nice), your first stop is at the earliest is 3h20m later. Your second stop would be about 2h40 later at least. So in a 9.5-11 hour 600 mile roadtrip, you have to stop twice. You can go from Nice, France, through Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia and Croatia to get to Bosnia. You gotta pee once every 3 countries, kinda sounds doable, actually you probably should give yourself a break at least those two times if you want to drive responsibly


----------



## 80251 (Jul 29, 2021)

n-ster said:


> EVs are going to take over the world whether you like it or not. "Battery vehicles" are better solution for a car than gas vehicles even if you disregard the environment benefits, better acceleration, can preheat/cool even in an enclosed space, so much cheaper to run and so much cheaper to maintain, brakes last forever. Don't need to go to a gas station your car is just always full, or if not, then a 15-30 minute charging session at a fast charger or a 3 hours at a slow charger once a week would work, and many businesses offer free charging as an incentive for you to come (and spend more time in their store). Any other vehicle will be better as a plug-in hybrid than just a gas car. Even if you have nowhere to plug, plug-ins will still be more efficient than standard hybrids considering the battery size, and you get the benefit of having extra torque and horsepower; see the RAV4 Prime. Pretty sure fuel exhaust is more cancerous. I feel like Hydrogen would be a good compromise eventually, and much better for trucks, planes and the like.
> 
> No, governments like to take money, they will tax EVs yearly through registration and have the users pay for it. EVs are getting more affordable, you could get a 2012 i-Miev for 3K. I'd argue that EVs are cheap when you look at it mid to long term, fuel savings and low maintenance. In urban areas, where most people live, and where you drive at slower speeds and break a lot, EVs are crazy efficient.
> 
> ...


"brakes last forever", yeah right. Don't electric vehicles end up having MORE mass than today's internal combustion vehicles? What do you think stops those vehicles? Leprechauns?


----------



## thesmokingman (Jul 29, 2021)

MentalAcetylide said:


> I'm not seeing anything concrete coming out of this... at least not anytime soon. _*Besides, it still takes a lot longer to recharge with electricity than it does to pump fuel into a tank.*_


Ugh no shit? But ugh some of you can keep being the petrol heads while states and countries are doing full switchovers. In some countries all vehicles will be forced to be emissions free by 2050 like the UK from what I last read. And let's not even bother mentioning California lol. Personally I'm going to restore my old Porsche Turbo and drive the shit out of it before it gets outlawed. Enjoy petrol while it lasts lol.









						Countries worldwide are passing laws to kill the gas-powered car — here's who's going all-electric, and when
					

It will take a combined effort on the part of automakers and municipalities to create EVs people actually want to buy and places to charge them.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## n-ster (Jul 29, 2021)

80251 said:


> "brakes last forever", yeah right. Don't electric vehicles end up having MORE mass than today's internal combustion vehicles? What do you think stops those vehicles? Leprechauns?


I have to remember to use the brakes, especially after rain... Almost all my braking is done through regenerative braking AKA the electric motor runs backwards and stores the energy in the battery. From your understanding of EVs, might as well be leprechauns. https://thebrakereport.com/bmw-i3-goes-277000-km-on-original-brakes/


----------



## 80251 (Jul 29, 2021)

n-ster said:


> I have to remember to use the brakes, especially after rain... Almost all my braking is done through regenerative braking AKA the electric motor runs backwards and stores the energy in the battery. From your understanding of EVs, might as well be leprechauns. https://thebrakereport.com/bmw-i3-goes-277000-km-on-original-brakes/


Wow a sample size of one, how convincing, reported by one guy and not even verified. I call shens. 3300 lbs going 70 mph. isn't going to be stopped by regenerative braking. Let's see you get away with not using brakes in stop-and-go traffic.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 29, 2021)

I still think rewarding and focusing on EV only is a mistake policy wise, we should have had more tax deductions for hybrids too not just EV centric... there are hybrid cars now (Hyundai Ioniq) that get 60 mpg... I mean... sorry but that is awesome progress... if they had more focus and RnD funding as EV gets we might be up to 70 mpg by now though I admit that's probably its limits... still...  that's damn impressive even the 60.


----------



## n-ster (Jul 29, 2021)

80251 said:


> Wow a sample size of one, how convincing, reported by one guy and not even verified. I call shens. 3300 lbs going 70 mph. isn't going to be stopped by regenerative braking. Let's see you get away with not using brakes in stop-and-go traffic.


Yes, the car stops with regen braking alone in stop and go. No it won't work for panic stops, though it does assist. Yes, it will stop without brakes, even at 70mph, provided you have enough space, if you don't, it still reduces the load on the brakes. The BMW i3 isn't even that strong of a regen braking, a lot of EVs let you control how strong the regen braking is with paddles behind the steering wheel.

Go watch a review of a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq 5 or even the i3, maybe you'll understand once you see it?

The i3's regen is 55KW, its motor is 125KW and does 0-60 in 6.9s. The regen is 44% of that acceleration. A Model 3 is 77KW, a Bolt ~70KW, a Porsche Taycan, 265KW


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 29, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> How does one charge for such usage?



An EV is already an IoT device with wheels. Cant be hard...



n-ster said:


> I'd agree that today it isn't a one-size fits all at all, but it is still trending towards mass adoption. Urban is 75+% of the population for NA, EU, AUS, NZ, Japan.
> 
> #1 Agreed, buying a new car will create more emissions, assuming the car you own isn't a gas guzzler. Still, throughout its lifetime the EV will create a lot less emissions. My BMW i3S' chassis is made from carbon-fiber, and the energy to make it was hydropower in Washington State. They gone so far as to use recycled materials for almost everything, Eucalyptus wood as it's a more "green" and renewable wood, leather dyed with olive leaf oil or something like that, they used as little amount of material as possible to shave a few ounces here and there etc. They also designed it to be somewhat modular so they could keep the same chassis and be able to easily swap to higher density batteries
> 
> ...



Thanks for saving me having to type your wall of text 

Yeah. Been driving an ID3 and so far... I really have to go hypercritical to find a con compared to previous ICEs Ive had. Range anxiety is just that. But I bought a charge cable now that can connect to any ordinary wall socket (! Infrastructure?? Lol) so even that rare occasion where Murphy's Law applies, Im still better equipped than in any ICE. After all, electricity is everywhere. 

That and the range is really just fine at 400+km specced range. Worst case conditions can shave 150km off it (strong winds, extreme colds, bad roads). 

All the other supposed disadvantages and it being worse than ICE in footprint is old car lobby bullshit. It really is. Tesla is building factories everywhere. Germany still produces in the same places. And EV is already equal or more efficient within the first years of its development. How long has ICE been innovated on now?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 29, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> An EV is already an IoT device with wheels. Cant be hard...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean, i have a 12V battery pack to jump start my car cause it keeps going flat once a month or so

How far could something like that kick a tesla in a power saving mode?

If we can charge at any socket and get portable batteries to replace ye olde Jerry Can, range anxiety stops being an issue


----------



## 80251 (Jul 29, 2021)

n-ster said:


> Yes, the car stops with regen braking alone in stop and go. No it won't work for panic stops, though it does assist. Yes, it will stop without brakes, even at 70mph, provided you have enough space, if you don't, it still reduces the load on the brakes. The BMW i3 isn't even that strong of a regen braking, a lot of EVs let you control how strong the regen braking is with paddles behind the steering wheel.
> 
> Go watch a review of a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq 5 or even the i3, maybe you'll understand once you see it?
> 
> The i3's regen is 55KW, its motor is 125KW and does 0-60 in 6.9s. The regen is 44% of that acceleration. A Model 3 is 77KW, a Bolt ~70KW, a Porsche Taycan, 265KW


Let's see proof of your magical claims.

I notice neither you nor your source had any proof whatsoever of your ridiculous claims that brakes last forever on a 3300 lb. car.

Let's see it do those 0-60 times after the batteries are a few years old.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jul 29, 2021)

If I'm fighting a terminator, in a standard film-scene car chase, and I scrape it's metal face along the road - does that mean it'll charge up and be stronger. Damn it. I've been practicing that move for years. Need to find a new approach.


----------



## Caring1 (Jul 29, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> If I'm fighting a terminator, in a standard film-scene car chase, and I scrape it's metal face along the road - does that mean it'll charge up and be stronger. Damn it. I've been practicing that move for years. Need to find a new approach.


Aren't Terminators nuclear or something similar? *shrugs*


----------



## 64K (Jul 29, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Aren't Terminators nuclear or something similar? *shrugs*



Yes.


----------



## thesmokingman (Jul 29, 2021)

80251 said:


> Wow a sample size of one, how convincing, reported by one guy and not even verified. I call shens. 3300 lbs going 70 mph. isn't going to be stopped by regenerative braking. Let's see you get away with not using brakes in stop-and-go traffic.


Could you be anymore of a M*R*N? Regen braking is standard on EV.


----------



## Shrek (Jul 29, 2021)

I'm wondering about losses for a powered but unused road.


----------



## 95Viper (Jul 29, 2021)

Stay on topic!
You are in the "Science & Technology" forum... not the "Lounge"

Also, Stop the Insults.
And, remember the Guidelines when posting.


----------



## n-ster (Jul 29, 2021)

80251 said:


> Let's see proof of your magical claims.
> 
> I notice neither you nor your source had any proof whatsoever of your ridiculous claims that brakes last forever on a 3300 lb. car.
> 
> Let's see it do those 0-60 times after the batteries are a few years old.


If you want to learn about EVs, there are many better resources than me. Literally ANY review on an EV. It's best to learn about a topic before calling a known fact and feature of something impossible and fake. Trucks, manual cars, can use engine braking to slow down for example Technology is advancing, friction braking is very inefficient, the energy goes away by heat. Most electricity production in the world uses an electric motor and magnetic field turbine things. This is simply science and indeed exists. Quebec is powered 99% Hydro power, which uses the same concept as well.

As Bill Nye says, it's not magic, it's science!: 
















						2018 Tesla Model S With 400,000 KM Still On Original Brake Pads
					

Nigel from Australia, the owner, has to be one of the most satisfied Tesla drivers that we’ve ever come across.




					insideevs.com
				











						Brake Life
					

Curious how long before a brake pad/rotor change is needed? These cars are relatively easy on brakes and I have roughly 40K, yet they are barely used!!




					www.gm-volt.com
				












This concrete charging thing probably uses induction. An induction stovetop transfers energy to the pan magnetically and doesn't heat the surface of the stovetop. You can put a paper towel and a silicone mat on top of the stovetop and cook without any problem, the only heat the stovetop will get is from the pan heating up the glass under it.

If you don't understand after looking at reviews and learning about EVs, I can try to find you ressources to help you understand if you wish, just shoot me a private message


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Jul 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I still think rewarding and focusing on EV only is a mistake policy wise, we should have had more tax deductions for hybrids too not just EV centric... there are hybrid cars now (Hyundai Ioniq) that get 60 mpg... I mean... sorry but that is awesome progress... if they had more focus and RnD funding as EV gets *we might be up to 70 mpg by now* though I admit that's probably its limits... still...  that's damn impressive even the 60.


Seriously? They were already able to make vehicle prototypes that are capable of over 100+ mpg like 15 years ago, and that was without electric. Gasoline vehicles can be made to get thrice or more the mpg they're still getting today, but they just don't want to manufacture them because of the big oil companies.



thesmokingman said:


> Ugh no shit? But ugh some of you can keep being the petrol heads while states and countries are doing full switchovers. In some countries all vehicles will be forced to be emissions free by 2050 like the UK from what I last read. And let's not even bother mentioning California lol. Personally I'm going to restore my old Porsche Turbo and drive the shit out of it before it gets outlawed. Enjoy petrol while it lasts lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its just way too inconvenient at this time and would make more sense for vehicles that have static routes. If you want to combat "climate change", your gripe is with the oil companies and their desire to "sell moar oil", "make moar money".


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 29, 2021)

MentalAcetylide said:


> Seriously? They were already able to make vehicle prototypes that are capable of over 100+ mpg like 15 years ago, and that was without electric. Gasoline vehicles can be made to get thrice or more the mpg they're still getting today, but they just don't want to manufacture them because of the big oil companies.
> 
> 
> Its just way too inconvenient at this time and would make more sense for vehicles that have static routes. If you want to combat "climate change", your gripe is with the oil companies and their desire to "sell moar oil", "make moar money".



interesting. didn't know that.

pretty sad really. cause EV is nice and all but if you want to go on a long trip cross country, having to stop to charge for 2-5 hours to get to full, especially if you have kids with you is going to be really frustrating.  300-400 mile range really isn't enough for family vacations.

shame the Dem's just don't get. subsidizing or offering tax incentives for 60-100 mpg hybrids would have been the better move imo (but they would have to meet that requirement for the tax incentive). and EV's would still get subsidies for those who wanted them to, EV's make a lot of sense for city dwellers, but not all of us want to be confided to a 300 mile radius and have to wait 3-5 hours for charging to move another 300 miles.

luckily for me I will be buying my first ever new car in a few months most likely if work keeps going well. and I intend to get a hybrid, so by the time these laws come into play meh i'll be sitting good for 20-30 years as long as I take care of it, which I intend to do.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> interesting. didn't know that.
> 
> pretty sad really. cause EV is nice and all but if you want to go on a long trip cross country, having to stop to charge for 2-5 hours to get to full, especially if you have kids with you is going to be really frustrating.  300-400 mile range really isn't enough for family vacations.
> 
> ...


If you wanna go on a long trip across the country... use a plane, a train, or a rental.

EV's are meant to be for the constant small trips.


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## n-ster (Jul 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> pretty sad really. cause EV is nice and all but if you want to go on a long trip cross country, having to stop to charge for 2-5 hours to get to full, especially if you have kids with you is going to be really frustrating. 300-400 mile range really isn't enough for family vacations.


But you'll have a hard time to find a slower Level 2 charger. Next to Interstates you'll get Level 3 Fast Charging. Modern EVs charge at 150~350KW, see my earlier post. With a 269 mile range EV, you'll have to stop twice for an 11 hour drive. During those 20 minute stops, you can go to the bathroom, buy a coffee etc, unlike when you're at the gas pump sitting there for 4-5 minutes.



n-ster said:


> I'm going to to do some maths for myself to see how much of a hassle charging is during a roadtrip. Something like the Ioniq 5 will gain about 68 miles in 5 minutes (~25%) which is roughly the time to fill up a gas car; for 188 miles it's 18 minutes (~70%). With a range of 269 miles, you might do 230 miles, assuming 69 mph average (nice), your first stop is at the earliest is 3h20m later. Your second stop would be about 2h40 later at least. So in a 9.5-11 hour 600 mile roadtrip, you have to stop twice. You can go from Nice, France, through Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia and Croatia to get to Bosnia. You gotta pee once every 3 countries, kinda sounds doable, actually you probably should give yourself a break at least those two times if you want to drive responsibly



Because the consumer has this huge irrational range anxiety, batteries on today's EVs are huge and do great on longer trips as well, with the benefits like having Climate control if you stop for a nap (or keep your gas car running I guess), costing 5-8x less than a gas car etc. My preference is for EVs with a 30-50KW battery instead of 80-100KW since I don't need the range, my car isn't really built for cross country roadtrips similar to other city cars, with a good one pedal system, tight turning circle, and small. Another car I like a lot is the Honda E for example. EVs are good for roadtrips, but they EXCEL in the city and are just so much better than gas cars in that setting. I never really get to 600 miles in my roadtrips, and I'd stop every 150-200 miles even when I drove a gas car


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## Space Lynx (Jul 30, 2021)

n-ster said:


> But you'll have a hard time to find a slower Level 2 charger. Next to Interstates you'll get Level 3 Fast Charging. Modern EVs charge at 150~350KW, see my earlier post. With a 269 mile range EV, you'll have to stop twice for an 11 hour drive. During those 20 minute stops, you can go to the bathroom, buy a coffee etc, unlike when you're at the gas pump sitting there for 4-5 minutes.



when we implement super fast rapid charging to the max on smartphones, it makes the lithium battery need to be replaced more quickly, much more quickly actually.  Linus from LinusTechTips even mentioned he turns off fast charging for his phone for this very reason.

So, if we do this ultra fast charging, does that mean we will be replacing the batteries in the EV every 3-5 years instead of the promised 7-10 year lifespan? That's a lot of natural resources / e-waste / the miners who get the battery resources from the actual mines needing to increase production, etc...

Doesn't seem like EV is all that climate friendly unless the battery can last at least 10 years imo. It needs to make up for its sourcing carbon output, then have net gains on top of that, to beat carbon emissions.



Mussels said:


> If you wanna go on a long trip across the country... use a plane, a train, or a rental.
> 
> EV's are meant to be for the constant small trips.



No way. I intend to do camping at all the national parks someday, and travel with a hybrid. Airplanes and trains and rentals and air bnb or hotels are way way more expensive than what I plan to do.


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## n-ster (Jul 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> when we implement super fast rapid charging to the max on smartphones, it makes the lithium battery need to be replaced more quickly, much more quickly actually.  Linus from LinusTechTips even mentioned he turns off fast charging for his phone for this very reason.
> 
> So, if we do this ultra fast charging, does that mean we will be replacing the batteries in the EV every 3-5 years instead of the promised 7-10 year lifespan? That's a lot of natural resources / e-waste / the miners who get the battery resources from the actual mines needing to increase production, etc...
> 
> ...





> Excessive use of public Level 3 DC Fast Charging stations (they can bring an EV up to 80 percent of its capacity in as little as 30 minutes) can also take a toll on a battery’s long-term performance. That’s because the faster an electric car is charged, the hotter it becomes and, again, that’s not battery friendly. However, a study conducted by the Idaho National Laboratory concluded that the effect isn’t particularly pronounced. The INL tested two pairs of identical 2012 Nissan Leaf models, with one set using 240-volt Level 2 home charging and the other exclusively relying on DC Fast Charging public units. *After each was driven 50,000 miles, the difference between the Level 2 and Level 3 vehicles’ diminished battery capacities amounted to just four percent.*
> Source



It can depend on your battery chemistry, but in general, there are a few factors that determine the life-cycle of the battery. Smartphones and laptops have poor battery life since they use chemistries that can hold more capacity and that are physically smaller at the expense of battery life, don't have a cooling system to manage heat which is an even bigger issue because of constraint of space, and leave very little buffers.

First, most EVs have a cooling system for the battery, Tesla's cooling system is like a lasagna of batteries and metal plates where the refrigerant passes, which allows them to cool their batteries faster and more precisely, hence their faster charging speeds. Second is how much you charge and discharge in the extreme top and bottom state of charge, ie 0-10% and 90-100%. EVs have large battery buffers and never completely charge or discharge. Similar to SSDs, having a larger capacity multiplies the life of the battery proportionally. To add to that, when we talk about Life cycles of a battery, we mean how long does the battery take until you lose 20% of your capacity. On a 400 mile EV, that's when your car ends up with "only" 320 miles, so if you have an oversized battery, you can use your battery for a lot longer. Taking into account all that, batteries in EVs fast charging will not impact the battery life cycle significantly.

An iPhone is rated for 500 cycles, and average use is probably something like 80% per 24 hours. This means the life of the battery would be ~19 months. EV battery rated 1000~3000 cycles. For our 269 mile Ioniq 5 with ~75KWh and 12 000 miles per year, it would be 12.2% per 24 hours, so life would be 22~57 years. If fast charging kills the battery 3x faster instead of the above saying 1.04, you'd get 7-19 years of life still. The promised 7~9 years isn't a promise, it's a 8 year/100000 mile warranty. If they cover for free a replacement battery if yours loses 20% range, you can bet the lifespan is much greater than that.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 30, 2021)

n-ster said:


> An iPhone is rated for 500 cycles, and average use is probably something like 80% per 24 hours. This means the life of the battery would be ~19 months. EV battery rated 1000~3000 cycles. For our 269 mile Ioniq 5 with ~75KWh and 12 000 miles per year, it would be 12.2% per 24 hours, so life would be 22~57 years. If fast charging kills the battery 3x faster instead of the above saying 1.04, you'd get 7-19 years of life still. The promised 7~9 years isn't a promise, it's a 8 year/100000 mile warranty. If they cover for free a replacement battery if yours loses 20% range, you can bet the lifespan is much greater than that.



this is very interesting. my last question for battery is simple then, when phone is at say 60% battery and i charge it up to top it off, I know you're not supposed to do that... shortens life again

so would that shorten life of EV battery cause 40% charge still count as one cycle? or would i need to be careful, and make sure i charge when only its almost empty?


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## n-ster (Jul 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> this is very interesting. my last question for battery is simple then, when phone is at say 60% battery and i charge it up to top it off, I know you're not supposed to do that... shortens life again
> 
> so would that shorten life of EV battery cause 40% charge still count as one cycle? or would i need to be careful, and make sure i charge when only its almost empty?


40% counts as 0.4 cycles actually. If you have something that's always plugged in, or not used for a long time, keeping the battery at 60% is ideal. 

You can absolutely charge your phone without a problem when it's at 60%. To lengthen its life, you just have to avoid the extremes, try not to let it dip below 10%, and stop charging it once it's at 80-90%. Avoid charging while gaming, avoid high temperatures like near the windshield on a hot day. You don't have to follow these rules religiously, just the more you do them, the longer the battery will last


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## Mussels (Jul 31, 2021)

Modern phones cheat that system so 0% is really 5%, and 100% is only 90%

they already solve these issues internally... like how fast charge splits the battery into 2 (9V quick charging and 4.5V normal? gee i wonder how they make that work) and quick charge only works at low percentages when the strain is lower, then slows down to regular charging later

hell, pixel phones deliberately trickle charge overnight with a goal of reaching 99% for your morning alarm... these battery flaws and workarounds are well known by now


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## 80251 (Aug 2, 2021)

n-ster said:


> Yes, the car stops with regen braking alone in stop and go. No it won't work for panic stops, though it does assist. Yes, it will stop without brakes, even at 70mph, provided you have enough space, if you don't, it still reduces the load on the brakes. The BMW i3 isn't even that strong of a regen braking, a lot of EVs let you control how strong the regen braking is with paddles behind the steering wheel.
> 
> Go watch a review of a Nissan Leaf or Ioniq 5 or even the i3, maybe you'll understand once you see it?
> 
> The i3's regen is 55KW, its motor is 125KW and does 0-60 in 6.9s. The regen is 44% of that acceleration. A Model 3 is 77KW, a Bolt ~70KW, a Porsche Taycan, 265KW


It'll stop without brakes at 70MPH. PROVE IT.


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## R-T-B (Aug 2, 2021)

80251 said:


> Wow a sample size of one, how convincing, reported by one guy and not even verified. I call shens. 3300 lbs going 70 mph. isn't going to be stopped by regenerative braking. Let's see you get away with not using brakes in stop-and-go traffic.


I thought regenerative braking was a well established tech.

Oh wait, it is.



80251 said:


> It'll stop without brakes at 70MPH. PROVE IT.


Regenerative braking IS brakes.  It's effectively contactless though, using motors like generators.  So no wear.  If you need proof I'd suggest actually using the available tech, it's been on the market since like, 2000.

And as he said, it's not for panic stops.


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## 80251 (Aug 2, 2021)

n-ster said:


> If you want to learn about EVs, there are many better resources than me. Literally ANY review on an EV. It's best to learn about a topic before calling a known fact and feature of something impossible and fake. Trucks, manual cars, can use engine braking to slow down for example Technology is advancing, friction braking is very inefficient, the energy goes away by heat. Most electricity production in the world uses an electric motor and magnetic field turbine things. This is simply science and indeed exists. Quebec is powered 99% Hydro power, which uses the same concept as well.
> 
> As Bill Nye says, it's not magic, it's science!:
> 
> ...



Let's see, a 3300lb vehicle traveling at 70mph has kinetic energy of 732,858.59 joules, a watt is a joule/sec

Let's see proof your regenerative braking system can dissipate that many joules of energy in say, 10 secs. Go ahead, I'll wait...


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## Shrek (Aug 2, 2021)

730 KJ, so we need _*73 KW*_ (for 10 seconds), which is about the regenerative power claimed above.



n-ster said:


> The i3's regen is 55KW, its motor is 125KW and does 0-60 in 6.9s. The regen is 44% of that acceleration. A Model 3 is 77KW, a Bolt ~70KW, a Porsche Taycan, 265KW


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## Anoniem (Aug 2, 2021)

I really like EV's because as Dutchies we don't really have to make that many miles (kilometers ), they're perfect for where I live. The only thing I'd like is for the car to be offline. I intensely dislike a lot of these cars simply because they rely on firmware and the "internet" Waaaay too much. Imagine an APT pushing firmware that's extremely malicious and disabling your car while driving. How about ransomwaring your vehicle with kids in it? It isn't some doomsday scenario. Look at what is happening in the real world. If there is any kind of possible financial gain, it will be exploited in the worst way possible. Especially with computers connected to the internet. Now I'm really not a car person, are there any vehicles that don't overly rely on an internet connection?


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## erocker (Aug 2, 2021)

From a road construction standpoint, this looks rather promising. Easy to install and still utilizes current ways in road building. I just wonder how much they can be paved over before they lose effectiveness.


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## Shrek (Aug 3, 2021)

Anoniem said:


> The only thing I'd like is for the car to be offline. I intensely dislike a lot of these cars simply because they rely on firmware and the "internet" Waaaay too much. Imagine an APT pushing firmware that's extremely malicious and disabling your car while driving. How about ransomwaring your vehicle with kids in it? It isn't some doomsday scenario. Look at what is happening in the real world. If there is any kind of possible financial gain, it will be exploited in the worst way possible. Especially with computers connected to the internet. Now I'm really not a car person, are there any vehicles that don't overly rely on an internet connection?



Hackers hijack software in a CAR and remotely control the steering, brakes and horn using a laptop | Daily Mail Online


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## n-ster (Aug 3, 2021)

80251 said:


> It'll stop without brakes at 70MPH. PROVE IT.





80251 said:


> Let's see, a 3300lb vehicle traveling at 70mph has kinetic energy of 732,858.59 joules, a watt is a joule/sec
> 
> Let's see proof your regenerative braking system can dissipate that many joules of energy in say, 10 secs. Go ahead, I'll wait...



The concept of an electric motor that can run as a generator is really not new at all... Last time I "had" to prove that it does indeed work and that an electric motor can generate, it was maybe 6-7 years ago? Try and spend half an hour looking it up

Back in 2013 the Tesla would regen up to 60KW, a far cry from the top of the line Porsche Taycan's 265KW.


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## 80251 (Aug 3, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> 730 KJ, so we need _*73 KW*_ (for 10 seconds), which is about the regenerative power claimed above.


I don't think there's anyway on this earth that a battery can store/charge 73 KW in 10 secs -- no matter how exotic. The amperage alone would require cables well above any wire gauge currently manufactured.



n-ster said:


> The concept of an electric motor that can run as a generator is really not new at all... Last time I "had" to prove that it does indeed work and that an electric motor can generate, it was maybe 6-7 years ago? Try and spend half an hour looking it up
> 
> Back in 2013 the Tesla would regen up to 60KW, a far cry from the top of the line Porsche Taycan's 265KW.



73 KW in 10 secs fool.

But where's your PROOF? You're long on assertions but short on proof.  265 KW in 10 secs? You're high.


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## Shrek (Aug 3, 2021)

Good point, but a 400V pack would mean around 200A (for 80 KW); I think starter motor cables can handle that, but I imagine losses would be high.

I think the Porsche has an 800V battery.
Charged EVs | High-voltage EV battery packs: benefits and challenges. More voltage, more better? - Charged EVs


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## n-ster (Aug 3, 2021)

80251 said:


> I don't think there's anyway on this earth that a battery can store/charge 73 KW in 10 secs -- no matter how exotic. The amperage alone would require cables well above any wire gauge currently manufactured.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not 73 KWh, just 73KW, let's say for 10 seconds = 0.20278 KWh, 265KW for 10 seconds is 0.736KWh. The size of a battery is measured by KWh, but it's charge or discharge in a particular moment in time would be KW. Amps-wise, the inverter in the Taycan is 600 Amps, its electric motors total 560 KW or 751 HP, peak 265 KW is 47% of the electric motors, similar to my i3's 44%. You do realize that if you floor it, the battery is discharging at 560 KW, and you need to connect the battery to the motor, there are many wires connecting everything, they have a shared load.

I'll upload a very boring video of me slowly and smoothly coming to a stop from 65mph if you'd like, takes about 15-20 seconds to stop


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