# Bad News. "Haswell-E paste Thermal grease"



## <-_-> (Aug 22, 2014)

> that has been changed to grease in Haswell-E According to MSI


http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20140822_663093.html

and LGA2011-3 "Delid Die Guard"


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## cadaveca (Aug 22, 2014)

Why is it bad news? For those that really care, this would be good news. If temps were actually a problem... or are you listening to reports from users with ES CPU? ROFL


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## EarthDog (Aug 22, 2014)

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-core-i7-5960x-de-lidded-haswell-e-uses-soldered-tim.html


That shows solder...


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## cadaveca (Aug 22, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-core-i7-5960x-de-lidded-haswell-e-uses-soldered-tim.html
> 
> 
> That shows solder...


That also shows ES....  ROFL.

SO nothing to see here...


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## GhostRyder (Aug 22, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> Why is it bad news? For those that really care, this would be good news. If temps were actually a problem... or are you listening to reports from users with ES CPU? ROFL


Well personally I was hoping for solder just to eliminate any potential chance of heat when running high overclocks.  But on the same note I also expect a 500 dollar - 1000 dollar chip to have it personally.  I just do not want to Delid the chip for optimal temps 



EarthDog said:


> http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-core-i7-5960x-de-lidded-haswell-e-uses-soldered-tim.html
> 
> 
> That shows solder...


Yea I was under the impression it was going to use solder...Sounds like they still are...


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## cadaveca (Aug 22, 2014)

GhostRyder said:


> Yea I was under the impression it was going to use solder...Sounds like they still are...



I would think a 140W or so chip would have solder too. But this is a good item to get hits, so whatever.


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## GhostRyder (Aug 22, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> I would think a 140W or so chip would have solder too. But this is a good item to get hits, so whatever.


I just do not want the chip to be throttled with heat while over clocking even with an LC system.  I just want to push it to the limit hence why I have liked the platform for quite some time!  I still believe it is based on what is seen so far (Unless soldering is reserved specifically for the 8 core variant which I think would be odd).


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 22, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-core-i7-5960x-de-lidded-haswell-e-uses-soldered-tim.html
> 
> 
> That shows solder...


As I said last time this news hit, that's a strong thermal EPOXY type glue and is not soldered.
It even says so on the original report of it being soldered wtf.


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## The Von Matrices (Aug 22, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel-core-i7-5960x-de-lidded-haswell-e-uses-soldered-tim.html
> 
> That shows solder...



According to that article, it's "soldered TIM based on a strong epoxy".  What does that actually mean?  Those seem like two incompatible materials.


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## Sasqui (Aug 22, 2014)

<-_-> said:


> http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20140822_663093.html
> 
> and LGA2011-3 "Delid Die Guard"



Die guards are for pussies.


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## EarthDog (Aug 22, 2014)

Sasqui said:


> Die guards are for pussies.


I hate signatures, but I want that in mine......... Bwaaaaaaaahahahah!

Dave, how did you figure out from that picture that its an ES?


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## cadaveca (Aug 22, 2014)

EarthDog said:


> I hate signatures, but I want that in mine......... Bwaaaaaaaahahahah!
> 
> Dave, how did you figure out from that picture that its an ES?


Because it's actually an older picture that I have seen before. Original source showed that it was an ES.


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## Generalolz (Aug 22, 2014)

If they didn't use solder I would be fucking pissed off! Come-on AMD be good!


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 22, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> According to that article, it's "soldered TIM based on a strong epoxy".  What does that actually mean?  Those seem like two incompatible materials.


That no heat was used to bond it and that it is not soldered simples.

They have likely made it trickier and riskier to de lid  via a higher bonding coefficient to dissway attempts imho .


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## The Von Matrices (Aug 23, 2014)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> That no heat was used to bond it and that it is not soldered simples.
> 
> They have likely made it trickier and riskier to de lid  via a higher bonding coefficient to dissway attempts imho .



I think you missed what I was stating.  Intel can use solder or Intel can use epoxy, but there's no such thing as a soldered epoxy.   Soldering by definition involves the flowing of a metal, and epoxy is not a metal, so you can't have a soldered epoxy.  What guru3d is saying is gibberish.


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## FR@NK (Aug 23, 2014)

I really hope this is just MSI thinking that because the die guard is a great feature for non-E Haswells that the same will imply to the new Haswell-E's. Either way I'm glad because if intel screws us and makes these chips with cheap TIM then atleast I can delid and use a die guard :/


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## RejZoR (Aug 23, 2014)

I don't get it why are companies always saving on tiny stuff, making crap products just because they want more profit. Use a god damn solder and charge extra 5 bucks on every bloody CPU. When you pay freakin 400 bucks for a CPU, you won't gonna care about extra 5 bucks, and they'll still have the same profit as if they don't charge extra 5 bucks, but use shitty epoxy instead. Jesus.


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## LiveOrDie (Aug 23, 2014)

For the cost of the CPU it will be solder.


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## GreiverBlade (Aug 23, 2014)

Live OR Die said:


> For the cost of the CPU it will be solder.


and what, if not ... we are talking of Intel ... they could (would?) go skyrocket price for 2011-3 even with pasta tim 

well ... as cadaveca wrote


cadaveca said:


> Why is it bad news? For those that really care, this would be good news. If temps were actually a problem... or are you listening to reports from users with ES CPU? ROFL



nonetheless delidder could be happy with that news


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 23, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> I think you missed what I was stating.  Intel can use solder or Intel can use epoxy, but there's no such thing as a soldered epoxy.   Soldering by definition involves the flowing of a metal, and epoxy is not a metal, so you can't have a soldered epoxy.  What guru3d is saying is gibberish.


Thats what im saying you silly sausage its NOT SOLDER , fourth time ive said it now and I said it when guru first wrote that article


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## Octopuss (Aug 23, 2014)

OMG I want that die guard for my 3770K!


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## dj-electric (Aug 23, 2014)

You guys really can't read between dave's lines huh?
Calm down, people. Haswell-E is NOT ivy-bridge \ haswell in terms of heat. Wait a bit and you'll see.


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## Octopuss (Aug 23, 2014)

Oh wait the thread was started by someone with 0 post and gibberish name. Looks like there's nothing to be discussed here.


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## TheHunter (Aug 23, 2014)

Dave likes to rofl a lot  XD


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Aug 23, 2014)

That die guard reminds me of the anti die crusher copper shim Amd had years ago. I actually have one in a drawer somewhere I got in a trade.


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## cadaveca (Aug 23, 2014)

TheHunter said:


> Dave likes to rofl a lot  XD


Yeah, because unlike every other reviewer I have talked to... who has ES... I have retail CPU.

So, I know what the end user will really get. Which makes most discussion about all of this quite funny. Many sites have missed the mark about what Intel is doing for so long, but because I don't do CPU reviews any more, it's not my place to say what's what. And because most of those sites are so focused on OC, they can't see the forest for the trees. And if it's their job to show everyone what's coming, and what's here... and they don't really know... HOW could anyone else?

These chips are soldered. With an added bit of epoxy around the core to hold it in place when mounted to the PCB. TWO COMPLETELY different adhesive techniques, for two different purposes.


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## ShockG (Aug 24, 2014)

ES or Retail they are all soldered. 
Just because it's soldered does not mean you can't pop the heat spreader off, you need a heat gun for this just like we used to use with gulftown CPUs and before.


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## cadaveca (Aug 24, 2014)

ShockG said:


> ES or Retail they are all soldered.
> Just because it's soldered does not mean you can't pop the heat spreader off, you need a heat gun for this just like we used to use with gulftown CPUs and before.




That's pretty much what I think is the case. Those that really need to de-lid, will. Time will tell of course.


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## <-_-> (Aug 27, 2014)

after all "X99S XPOWER AC" is included "Delid Die Guard"

Amazon.co.jp MSI X99S XPOWER AC
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00N0V0Y6G/


> Convenient "OC fan Stand" comes plate to protect the CPU that was Karawari as "Daigado"






Karawari = Delid
Daigado = Die Guard


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## lilhasselhoffer (Aug 27, 2014)

RejZoR said:


> I don't get it why are companies always saving on tiny stuff, making crap products just because they want more profit. Use a god damn solder and charge extra 5 bucks on every bloody CPU. When you pay freakin 400 bucks for a CPU, you won't gonna care about extra 5 bucks, and they'll still have the same profit as if they don't charge extra 5 bucks, but use shitty epoxy instead. Jesus.



The problem is that it isn't something you charge $5 for.  Soldering has to heat the CPU to approximately 90 C.  That kind of heat may damage the CPU if not controlled, costs money to do, and requires skilled labor.  That $5 worth of solder material probably costs Intel $20 per chip, once they've binned out defective units and paid for skilled labor.

On the other hand, you've got epoxy.  Mechanically combine two chemicals, plop down bead, apply IHS.  The materials may cost Intel $7 per chip, but they save $10 on having unskilled laborers and significantly less toasted chips.


I agree that a $400 or more CPU should run as cool as possible.  The thing is, Intel doesn't sell tons of socket 2011 parts, they sell tons of the much cheaper socket 1150 parts.  If they could save $10 a chip they can plow a ton of money back into R&D, to maintain their output of technology and actually start competing with ARM on the low power devices.  

All of this assumes that Intel won't just call it a huge earnings boon.  Personally, I think once temperature is no longer the failure point of OCs, as has been the case with the last two generations of the mainstream line, that Intel can use whatever they want to for a thermal solution.  Socket 2011 has yet to achieve this lofty goal though, so I agree it should still be soldered.


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## RejZoR (Aug 27, 2014)

Well, you overpay that 2011 to begin with, so apply the damn solder on it!


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## lilhasselhoffer (Aug 27, 2014)

RejZoR said:


> Well, you overpay that 2011 to begin with, so apply the damn solder on it!



....?

By what standards are you judging that I've overpaid for a CPU.  Everybody shows hate for a perceived price gouging from Intel, but there never seems to be anyone rushing to the plate with evidence of this price gouging.

Here's what I can prove.  Intel is extremely profitable, as demonstrated by their quarterly earnings.  Intel has plowed large amounts of money into fabrication and research, because they own their own foundries and have numerous patents.  Intel is run by money hungry people, as demonstrated by numerous anti-trust suits.  Intel's legal team, presumable on retainers, is world class.  This is based upon the ratio of lawsuits they've been involved in, compared with the lawsuits that are settled without a court decision.

All of this seems like Intel is a company out for money, because they are.  If you want to moan about pricing don't buy their products.  If you want to play games there's AMD CPUs, and all the major consoles run with AMD technology.  If you don't give Intel your business they'll change their attitude.


What I see instead is people complaining that there aren't 10 core 20 thread processors for $60 out there.  People whine and moan that AMD performance doesn't match that of Intel.  If you don't want to pay the price, then don't buy the CPU.  There's a reason I don't buy Nvidea GPUs, and it isn't because they somehow are worse than AMD.  If you don't support a company they will change their ways.  If all you want to do is complain, then you're not going to change anything.


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## <-_-> (Aug 29, 2014)

http://www.msi.com/product/mb/X99S-XPOWER-AC.html


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## <-_-> (Aug 29, 2014)

ASUS 2011-v3 O.C. Socket
Extra cpu pins!


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## hat (Aug 29, 2014)

How can you just add extra pins to a board when every cpu only has so many contacts?


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## lilhasselhoffer (Aug 30, 2014)

hat said:


> How can you just add extra pins to a board when every cpu only has so many contacts?



It's a BS argument.  Think of a bed of nails.  That bed doesn't penetrate you when you lie on it, because the gravitationally exerted force of your mass is tiny per pin.  

Asus seems to be arguing that more pins mean less force, less force means less distortion, less distortion means a greater area in contact with the pads on the CPU.  That greater contact area means less resistance (combined with less mechanical stress induced resistance), so the electrical properties will be better.  It isn't a completely unreasonable claim, but assuming you add 100 extra pins, you've got a 100/2011= 5% increase in surface area.  Assuming the latching force is 200 N, you're looking at .099 N per pin or 0.094 N per pin.  Mechanically, that's functionally not a difference.  While the claim may be mathematically true, it's unlikely to be something you'd notice.


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## MSnyder (Aug 30, 2014)

hat said:


> How can you just add extra pins to a board when every cpu only has so many contacts?



I believe what this means is that if in the instance the- hassel beat me to it 


lilhasselhoffer said:


> It's a BS argument.  Think of a bed of nails.  That bed doesn't penetrate you when you lie on it, because the gravitationally exerted force of your mass is tiny per pin.
> 
> Asus seems to be arguing that more pins mean less force, less force means less distortion, less distortion means a greater area in contact with the pads on the CPU.  That greater contact area means less resistance (combined with less mechanical stress induced resistance), so the electrical properties will be better.  It isn't a completely unreasonable claim, but assuming you add 100 extra pins, you've got a 100/2011= 5% increase in surface area.  Assuming the latching force is 200 N, you're looking at .099 N per pin or 0.094 N per pin.  Mechanically, that's functionally not a difference.  While the claim may be mathematically true, it's unlikely to be something you'd notice.



Agreed. I was about to post that. I was told that the CPU had extra pins but just saw that picture/marketing claim. I doubt that extra pins would do anything like that


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## lilhasselhoffer (Sep 8, 2014)

hat said:


> How can you just add extra pins to a board when every cpu only has so many contacts?



Yeah, I have to eat my words here.  Check out this thread, http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/your-haswell-e-max-stable-oc.204965/#post-3160450

Gist of it is that there are more than 2011 pins, for diagnostics.  ASUS is going around the Intel BS to make an awesome overclocking platform.  Funny that they don't say it in the marketing, but not surprising.


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## OneMoar (Sep 8, 2014)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Yeah, I have to eat my words here.  Check out this thread, http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/your-haswell-e-max-stable-oc.204965/#post-3160450
> 
> Gist of it is that there are more than 2011 pins, for diagnostics.  ASUS is going around the Intel BS to make an awesome overclocking platform.  Funny that they don't say it in the marketing, but not surprising.


no BS about it those pins are for diagnostic's and some are voltage check points used in the binning process
they allow ASUS to bypass some of the FIVR logic and increase voltage stability


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