# Need ammo against ISP



## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

Hello again TPU community. I am hoping someone can help me find out what is really going on with my ISP. I have had Windstream dsl for several years now and have never had good service, not even close. All I get out of them is lies and runarounds.  I am finally at my breaking point and want to figure out exactly what is going on. 

My problem is that I am completely clueless when looking at the info and diagnostics on my Speedstream 4200. Can anyone give me a good starting point at to what to look for? 

So far I have contacted the FCC, BBB, and my state attorney general with no resolution. I figure I need to get better educated on what I am talking about so that I have a more concrete complaint.

As always, many thanks for any help.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 4, 2011)

But what exactly are you unhappy with?


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## W1zzard (Jun 4, 2011)

just cancel go somewhere else


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## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> But what exactly are you unhappy with?



Sorry for not going in to greater detail, I was trying to avoid a wall of text. 

[URL=http://www.speedtest.net]
	
[/URL]

This pretty much sums it up. Those speeds have been the norm for a long, long time.


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## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> just cancel go somewhere else



Man, I wish I had an option. Rural FTL.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Jun 4, 2011)

I know I'd of switched ISPs ages ago if I had a choice. In the US many towns are faced with only one options for broadband. We get price increases once a year and service outages they aren't even aware of that don't get fixed for months. The only plus is they don't have a bandwidth cap. Though I'm sure that has more to do with incompetence. We finally hit 10 mbps a few months ago as the highest offering. 12 was the slowest speed where I used to live years ago.


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## Peter1986C (Jun 4, 2011)

Is that DSL/ADSL that you are having? Is there an option were you live, to get internet via TV cable? AFAIK far from ideal but if you have the first mentioned now, via TV cable might be better.


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## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2011)

Those speedstream modems don't really give much usable info in terms of diagnosing a connection problem.


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## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

Chevalr1c said:


> Is that DSL/ADSL that you are having? Is there an option were you live, to get internet via TV cable? AFAIK far from ideal but if you have the first mentioned now, via TV cable might be better.



Yes, it's dsl. The only way Time Warner will run cable here is if I get a certain amount of people in the area to sign up for their service. Most of my neighbors are only concerned with farming and hunting, they could care less.


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## MT Alex (Jun 4, 2011)

Nozoned said:


> Most of my neighbors are only concerned with farming and hunting, they could care less.



Sounds like you have good neighbors, my kind of folks.  I bet you don't have to worry about locking you stuff up, either.


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## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

MT Alex said:


> Sounds like you have good neighbors, my kind of folks.  I bet you don't have to worry about locking you stuff up, either.



Yea, they're good people. Pretty quiet out here.


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## Soylent Joe (Jun 4, 2011)

I don't really know what you're looking for but the EFF loves to back people up against bad ISP's and such. Maybe they can give you a hand.


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## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

Soylent Joe said:


> I don't really know what you're looking for but the EFF loves to back people up against bad ISP's and such. Maybe they can give you a hand.



I guess I'm trying to find out how to spot different problems like them maxing bandwidth or damaged cables. Like, what are the characteristics of different issues on their end.

Thanks for the EFF hookup. I just read a little on their site. Looks like they might go for heavier stuff but, I'm going to see what they can do.


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## OneMoar (Jun 4, 2011)

might not be on the isp end how old is the wiring on ur house old phone-lines = makes already crapy dsl crappier and the farther away from the switch the worse it gets
dsl sucks 250KB/s is about what you are gonna get out of dsl unless you live within ~5 miles of a switch


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## Nozoned (Jun 4, 2011)

OneMoar said:


> might not be on the isp end how old is the wiring on ur house old phone-lines = makes already crapy dsl crappier and the farther away from the switch the worse it gets
> dsl sucks 250KB/s is about what you are gonna get out of dsl unless you live within ~5 miles of a switch



I've done a good bit of testing from the test jack to the computer. I've used multiple computers, modems, cables, and even taking everything outside and plugging directly in to the test jack so I could cross off the wires in the walls.


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## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2011)

Basically, without special equipment to test the signal strength, it is hard to pin down anything service releated.  My suggestion would be to just constantly call them until they send a tech out, and make sure the tech checks the signal strength.  If you get a tech that wants to be a dick and not really do anything just call up and request another come out.



OneMoar said:


> dsl sucks 250KB/s is about what you are gonna get out of dsl unless you live within ~5 miles of a switch



It all depends on the area, in my area you get 1MB/s download speeds on DSL no problem pretty much everywhere except the boonies.  And ever since AT&T has been switching to FTTC their 22Mb/s service has been remarkable. Saddly they have put a hold on laying more fiber "due to the economy".


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## xBruce88x (Jun 4, 2011)

i can tell you what their problem is...

They don't upgrade their infrastructure in all areas when the higher speeds are offered. I had them for a while and they wouldn't let us order anything over 3mbps b/c they said we were too far from the terminal or w/e (even though its just up the road). B/c in our area they still use copper lines instead of fibre in a lot of areas. There's talk that google's FIOS experiment may hit the Athens, GA area so i'm looking forward to that, although i'm 20miles west, but it'll have to go through our town to get there XD. yet windstream advertise 12mb and 24mb speeds. so basically they say... well we'll upgrade in some areas and advertise cool stuff and when ppl sign up with a bundle they get screwed. I would have been ok with 6mbps... but nooo. also b/c of the old network in a lot of spots its starting to break down/can't handle the volume so everyone in the area gets slowed down or outage. so now we have Comcast economy plan or w/e. I get an avg 400Kb/sec download rate. not the fastest but it gets me by on our budget. good enough for 720p youtube and hulu and doesn't take too long to update most games. I'm just hoping i dont have to re-load all of my steam games any time soon (200gb ish)

oh and OP... are you using the filter they provided? do you have it going through a surge protector of any kind? they told me that the surge protector can degrade their signal (b/c that's how much they suck, and leaving your network vulnerable to lightning...). You might try an aftermarket modem. also they have a habit of handing out modems that other customers take to them due to problems (refurbs) even tho they charge you for the cost of a new one. You can get compatible ones online or via tigerdirect/microcenter/frys/ maybe bestbuy

edit: your only other choice may be hughesnet... but that can get expensive (satellite). There's also "skyway usa" and wildblue. they all have data limits. after you've hit a certian limit your speed gets throttled down (even slower) each month/day. and latency is high. oh did i mention expensive?


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## OneMoar (Jun 4, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Basically, without special equipment to test the signal strength, it is hard to pin down anything service releated.  My suggestion would be to just constantly call them until they send a tech out, and make sure the tech checks the signal strength.  If you get a tech that wants to be a dick and not really do anything just call up and request another come out.
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends on the area, in my area you get 1MB/s download speeds on DSL no problem pretty much everywhere except the boonies.  And ever since AT&T has been switching to FTTC their 22Mb/s service has been remarkable. Saddly they have put a hold on laying more fiber "due to the economy".



bits != bytes


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## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2011)

OneMoar said:


> bits != bytes



Yes, I know, that is why I put a B and not a b.  If I was only getting 1M*b*/s download speeds on my guaranteed 20Mb/s DSL line I would be extremely pissed.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jun 4, 2011)

This really isn't that complicated of a problem.

1) Call your ISP and have them ping the modem.  Confirm that it has <20ms latency and they're not dropping any packets.  If the . . .
A) confirmation is successful, the problem is on your end.
B) confirmation is a failure, the problem is on their end.​2) Drink beer.

Also you can ping your gateway/DNS server and use the latency/loss as ammo during the phone call.  You don't need to figure out what the problem is if the problem is on their end, that's their job.  You only need to confirm it's on their end.  If they refuse to fix it then pay your lawyer to write them a love note. 

Your neighbors don't use the interwebs?


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## OneMoar (Jun 4, 2011)

id do a tracert to you're isp's level3


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## thebluebumblebee (Jun 4, 2011)

First, what speed are you paying for?

That ping time indicates a problem to me.

A site (that's been around since 1999) that might have more tools to help you: http://www.dslreports.com/


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## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> This really isn't that complicated of a problem.
> 
> 1) Call your ISP and have them ping the modem.  Confirm that it has <20ms latency and they're not dropping any packets.  If the . . .
> A) confirmation is successful, the problem is on your end.
> ...



Basically, I'd do similar to this.  I'd leave a ping running and logging to a txt file.

Open a command window and type:

ping 8.8.8.8 -t >c:\ping.txt

Let that run for a while, then press Ctrl+C to end it(do not just close the window!).

Then open up ping.txt in the root of your C drive.  At the bottom it should list the % of lost packets, this should be under 10%, and it should also list the round trip times, these should be consistant, the maximum and minimum should be within 100ms of eachother and the average should be near the middle of the two.

That will tell you your line quality, from there you can take it to your ISP and tell them you know there is something wrong based on that report, you can even print it or email it to them if you want.  And tell them if they don't do something about it, then you will email it to the local news paper and draft an editorial about how they rip their customers off.


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## Nozoned (Jun 5, 2011)

xBruce88x said:


> i can tell you what their problem is...
> 
> They don't upgrade their infrastructure in all areas when the higher speeds are offered. I had them for a while and they wouldn't let us order anything over 3mbps b/c they said we were too far from the terminal or w/e (even though its just up the road). B/c in our area they still use copper lines instead of fibre in a lot of areas. There's talk that google's FIOS experiment may hit the Athens, GA area so i'm looking forward to that, although i'm 20miles west, but it'll have to go through our town to get there XD. yet windstream advertise 12mb and 24mb speeds. so basically they say... well we'll upgrade in some areas and advertise cool stuff and when ppl sign up with a bundle they get screwed. I would have been ok with 6mbps... but nooo. also b/c of the old network in a lot of spots its starting to break down/can't handle the volume so everyone in the area gets slowed down or outage. so now we have Comcast economy plan or w/e. I get an avg 400Kb/sec download rate. not the fastest but it gets me by on our budget. good enough for 720p youtube and hulu and doesn't take too long to update most games. I'm just hoping i dont have to re-load all of my steam games any time soon (200gb ish)
> 
> ...



Yea I use the filter, even got a new one. I looked in to the satellites but like you said it really isn't worth it.  



streetfighter 2 said:


> This really isn't that complicated of a problem.
> 
> 1) Call your ISP and have them ping the modem.  Confirm that it has <20ms latency and they're not dropping any packets.  If the . . .
> A) confirmation is successful, the problem is on your end.
> ...



I'm sure they do but probably not much more than web browsing. Gaming or voip are out of the question most of the time.



thebluebumblebee said:


> First, what speed are you paying for?
> 
> That ping time indicates a problem to me.
> 
> A site (that's been around since 1999) that might have more tools to help you: http://www.dslreports.com/



I'm paying for 3 down, their highest option. 



newtekie1 said:


> Basically, I'd do similar to this.  I'd leave a ping running and logging to a txt file.
> 
> Open a command window and type:
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, I'm going to do that now.


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## xBruce88x (Jun 5, 2011)

just curious... what exactly is the problem with the connection? low speed (well even lower...) or unable to get online from time to time?

3Mbps down and (im assuming) 768kbps upload translates to *up to* 0.3MB/sec or about 300KB/sec download, about 75KB/sec upload. or your upload may be as low as 384kbps, or about 35KB/sec... more likely your package is probably the slower upload speed






^ that should be some good ammo. If you're not getting service and (what they call) high speed 99.9% of the time like they advertise, then they should come out and fix it for you. BTW i wasn't sure what city you were in so i just picked one, but regardless of city 3mbps is 3mbps and 99.9% is 99.9%.


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## W1zzard (Jun 5, 2011)

the speedtest.net result by the op is 0.3 mbit/s not 0.3 mbytes/s

have you tried unplugging power to your modem, leaving it disconnected for 5 minutes and then plugging it back in?


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## xBruce88x (Jun 5, 2011)

ah srry i thought that was a random speedtest sig when i scrolled back through. I was doing the conversions based on the *up to* speeds advertised.

with that said... do what w1zz suggested (and the same for a router if you have one) and if that doesn't solve the issue see if you can get a replacement or have them come out and fix it. that's just insanely slow. that's about the speed of my blackberry's EDGE connection.


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## theonedub (Jun 5, 2011)

Id like to see the DSL line stats, mainly US/DS SNR and Attenuation. 

Quick story: 

Had been having bad connections with my ADSL where the line speeds would fluctuate from 1-3megs all the time. Techs that came out blamed the distance to the switch (2.5mi, I live in a rural area as well) and said unless we physically moved the house there was no other option. Their solution when the line got bad was to lower the speeds down. Got fed up with it and got in contact with the Regional Manager and explained the situation. Turns out there is a remote switch less than 1mi from my home (Im sure the other techs knew about it too). RM got someone out to splice in new line from my house to the remote and now I have a rock solid 7meg line.


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## xBruce88x (Jun 5, 2011)

probably the best way... the techs can give you the "its not technically possible" BS and you have to take their word for it, but the Regional Manager can tell the techs, "I don't care make it happen"


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## OneMoar (Jun 5, 2011)

dsl speed is entirely dependent on signal quality, distance from the local switch,age and the quality of your home's wiring. this does not look like a case of the isp throttling you. 
it sounds a lot like a case of bad location , old lines and they are not going to replace every mile of line or upgrade hardware just for you. 
sorry man thats just the way it is sometimes, and people _joining the witch hunt_ are not helping


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 5, 2011)

theonedub said:


> Id like to see the DSL line stats, mainly US/DS SNR and Attenuation.
> 
> Quick story:
> 
> Had been having bad connections with my ADSL where the line speeds would fluctuate from 1-3megs all the time. Techs that came out blamed the distance to the switch (2.5mi, I live in a rural area as well) and said unless we physically moved the house there was no other option. Their solution when the line got bad was to lower the speeds down. Got fed up with it and got in contact with the Regional Manager and explained the situation. Turns out there is a remote switch less than 1mi from my home (Im sure the other techs knew about it too). RM got someone out to splice in new line from my house to the remote and now I have a rock solid 7meg line.



here's mine- 







3000/768 Verizon DSL


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## Nozoned (Jun 5, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> the speedtest.net result by the op is 0.3 mbit/s not 0.3 mbytes/s
> 
> have you tried unplugging power to your modem, leaving it disconnected for 5 minutes and then plugging it back in?



Yea, I power cycle it all the time.


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## thebluebumblebee (Jun 5, 2011)

Getting 1/10 of what you're paying for should be a crime.


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