# Blue-ray put to death,by Chinese



## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 4, 2009)

China- http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/china/article6732410.ece
I don't think it will be long before you can get a CBHD player on Fleebay,if not already
bye bye blue ray AT dvd cost HD is gonna make a comeback


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 4, 2009)

If its cheaper than the £25 a film in the uk,then good luck to it.


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## alexp999 (Aug 4, 2009)

I really dont think supporting a format whose software is owned by the Govt is a good idea at all.

Maybe this format will flourish in China, but I cant see it working anywhere else.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 4, 2009)

tigger said:


> If its cheaper than the £25 a film in the uk,then good luck to it.


£4.5 according to article


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 4, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> I really dont think supporting a format whose software is owned by the Govt is a good idea at all.
> 
> Maybe this format will flourish in China, but I cant see it working anywhere else.


 As long as Movies are spoken in english the rest would be easy to deal with, But with world markets slumped Cheap, Is the way to go and If the Chinese Gov were to charge $.50 per player to use that would put 720p movies at $10 here in the U.S., Maybe not a good idea for Gov to own, but $ money talks
EDIT: just remember in CHINA, GOV owned means, THE PEOPLE OWN.... And how could you have a problem with that...I have no problems paying for fee's for development for the people who developed "IT" But i do have a problem with paying the LEACH corporations to sit on it..Which is what Sony Does...Which is why I don't own blue-ray, I own HD copy which is registered to "me" and my devices, I might pay the same as BLUE-RAY but I never paid for CRUMMY bloated over priced player


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## Sasqui (Aug 4, 2009)

Getting a 404 error on that link.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 4, 2009)

Sasqui said:


> Getting a 404 error on that link.


http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=562&tag=nl.e539 try this one plus there is a link to the other article as well


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## suraswami (Aug 4, 2009)

so those movies even if they are hollywood movies will quit working in the middle of the movie for no reason right?


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## AKlass (Aug 4, 2009)

I'd rather invest in Japenese blu-ray then cheapo Chinese sweat shop players that have bad quality control


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 4, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> I really dont think supporting a format whose software is owned by the Govt is a good idea at all.


Ditto, especially the Chinese government.  The first thing that popped into my mind is that this "format" is simply a distribution system for nasty software (think malware including viruses, worms, drone computing, DRM, rootkits, and the like).  I trust the Chinese government less than I trust Sony and I do not trust Sony at all.

Me, I'll stick to regular old DVDs for the next decade.  Even DVDs are pretty craptastic in regards to DRM compared to VHS.  Consumers are getting screwed.  There's no two ways about it.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 4, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Ditto, especially the Chinese government.  The first thing that popped into my mind is that this "format" is simply a distribution system for nasty software (think malware including viruses, worms, drone computing, DRM, rootkits, and the like).  I trust the Chinese government less than I trust Sony and I do not trust Sony at all.
> 
> Me, I'll stick to regular old DVDs for the next decade.  Even DVDs are pretty craptastic in regards to DRM compared to VHS.  Consumers are getting screwed.  There's no two ways about it.


Most of your Pc was "Made in China" and most of ur monitor if not all of it LOL
As for second part


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## niko084 (Aug 4, 2009)

AKlass said:


> I'd rather invest in Japenese blu-ray then cheapo Chinese sweat shop players that have bad quality control



AMEN! 

*drools at all of my Japanese solid state class a audio equipment*


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 4, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> Most of your Pc was "Made in China" and most of ur monitor if not all of it LOL


Quality control often isn't.  Still, I don't like that aspect of it as much as the rest.  This is mainly why I don't trust the Chinese government, at all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project

The press is what keeps the government honest.  Blocking information like they are allows them to shape minds--entire generations of minds.  It isn't good...


China is as much a police state as North Korea.  The only difference is the West is funding China and not North Korea.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 4, 2009)

niko084 said:


> AMEN!
> 
> *drools at all of my Japanese solid state class a audio equipment*


so far looked up 15 blue ray players all "made in china"
the thing is your paying $22 for the blue-ray player "rights" and $x per movie This was China buying the "Rights" for hd format 720p so they would not have to "pay" "drm" fees thus reducing the price per movie to 25% of Blue-Ray cost..
any way you look at it, your buying Chinese made stuff, the question is do you want to pay ROYALTIES to a leach corporation.. AS i said i am willing to pay for development cost's,but not an extra TURD fee


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## niko084 (Aug 4, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> so far looked up 15 blue ray players all "made in china"
> the thing is your paying $22 for the blue-ray player "rights" and $x per movie This was China buying the "Rights" for hd format 720p so they would not have to "pay" "drm" fees thus reducing the price per movie to 25% of Blue-Ray cost..
> any way you look at it, your buying Chinese made stuff, the question is do you want to pay ROYALTIES to a leach corporation.. AS i said i am willing to pay for development cost's,but not an extra TURD fee



I don't own a bluray player either...
I refuse to pay the outrageous price for Sony's half rate inefficient technology.

But I have been slowly considering buying one..
*NOT made in China*

The one I am most interested in buying is the Yamaha BD-S2900, which is made in Japan. 

But I agree, it's a mess... Exactly why I refuse to pay for half of it.


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## Timothy B. Schmit (Aug 6, 2009)

I agree, I was browsing through DVDs the other day and the prices of blue ray were astonishing!


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 6, 2009)

Blu Ray prices are dropping and soon will cost as much as DVD, do you guys not remember (if some are old enough) when VHS was being taken over by DVD, the movies were over 40 dollars a piece and the hardware was more than blu ray players are now, they are dropping faster than dvd format did, 

Anyway, go buy a funstation 3 and play some of those games haha,

Point is in the U.S the format wars wont consider the CBHD, Sony has a lot of companies under there blu ray agreement, and if they have to by the time the "CBHD" comes here it will be just as cheap as dvd's cost, hell i saw a few new release movies at best buy and watchmen was only 24.99 Vs the DVD release at 24.99

just an example? i think those are the same price and one his Blu ray?

point is a matter of time before blu ray is really cheap and cost as much as dvd's, so this is basically good for anyone over seas but for us it doesn't really matter


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 6, 2009)

This will never fly. No major players are supporting it. This will be like all the dumb knock offs that the Russians did in the 80's.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 6, 2009)

I bought my first DVD player at Walmart for $179 in the late 90's but that was worth it cause i had a big square Tv that needed the 480i progressive scan. The cost for DVD's was exactly the same price at Walmart for Vhs, and i got a free 6 month membership with 6 months paid to Netflix for exactly the same price i pay now $9.49 a month but now i get Netflix "watch instantly" with Starz on demand And yeah i could get Blue-ray as well,Holly shit!!! LOL I could pick up a Blue-ray for $149 but neh It really is on it's way out


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 6, 2009)

i have to disagree it is far from on its way out? the medium isn't even being utilized cause of price yet trust me as a computer tech i'd rather copy customers data to a BD-R that is 25gb vs 5 Dvd's it just easier, granted the cost is too high to assume every customer has a BD drive in there PC but remember the technology is still new and at the time of "Format wars" it was still risky to invest in not knowing who would win.

This china CBHD doesn't even have backward support like the Blu ray players which is a huge plus once again, who wants to have 2 units that plays movies when they can do it in one package, that's how the customer looks at it, can you explain how Blu ray is on its way out im really curious to why it is.


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## r9 (Aug 6, 2009)

That players would be twice worst than blueray but 5 times cheaper so it is a Ok by me.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 6, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> i have to disagree it is far from on its way out? the medium isn't even being utilized cause of price yet trust me as a computer tech i'd rather copy customers data to a BD-R that is 25gb vs 5 Dvd's it just easier, granted the cost is too high to assume every customer has a BD drive in there PC but remember the technology is still new and at the time of "Format wars" it was still risky to invest in not knowing who would win.
> 
> This china CBHD doesn't even have backward support like the Blu ray players which is a huge plus once again, who wants to have 2 units that plays movies when they can do it in one package, that's how the customer looks at it, can you explain how Blu ray is on its way out im really curious to why it is.


I know, nobody thinks Blue-Ray will hit sudden death, However OnDemand Is working out the Legal ends to a Better Digital copy license that will not require a "player" but just a Broad band connection, in comes the New Pansonic Viera's  a few Sony's and a few Lg's That not only let you watch Netflix Ondemand etc... but allow you to watch Hulu etc.... all in HD so as i see it 2 years


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 6, 2009)

yes but there is a huge part of the market and i mean gigantic that actually like owning a hard copy of something part of a collection, that is where its going to stop digital download movies will probably just be what it is for netflix and on demand for the people who don't want to own something and just watch it. i personally will buy a hard copy of a good movie if i like it, i don't really buy anything digital cause i like owning it.

So they can stream movies to there tv's and what not "like we can do now" those new tv's will come with a price and im sure its hefty, why not just buy a 360 that lets you watch netflix on your tv for 199 dollars or buy the media player from netflix for 99 dollars? 

it sounds great on paper but the success only lies in with rental service or than purchasing.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 6, 2009)

VHS filled a void in the market as much as DVD did.  The same goes for tapes to CDs for the music industry.  Namely, VHS required rewinding and altering the tracking to get a good picture and DVDs have neither of those downsides.  The only real downside of a DVD player is that it can't serve as a mixing device like VHS could (merge various analog channels into one) but, because that is over the average consumer's need/want/care, DVD killed VHS virtually overnight.

Cassettes got toppled virtually overnight for the same reasons VHS did--no more rewinding.


Enter BD-DVD and HD-DVD.  It offers only one benefit: better picture.  A lot of consumers switching from analog to digital are seeing all the blotching on news hosts' faces--a major turn off.  Really, I think there are many parallels in BD-DVD vs DVD as there is in PCs.  BD-DVD is the enthusiast's product like your Alienwares, quad-SLI, SSDs, and other extravagant hardware people buy for bragging rights and the rest fit under DVD/mainstream PCs.  The way I see it, BD-DVD is a niche market just like enthusiast computers--it is not something the lion's share of consumers can be convinced they need.


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## DrOctopus (Aug 6, 2009)

50kuai is too expensive for the average consumer in china i think. with dvd's at an average of around 5kuai i doubt they will be very popular. However, with the government backing them anything is possible. Just think of the example in central china, (i forget the province but its the main tobacco producing area) the government set in place a law that you must purchase 1 pack of cigarettes (double happiness i beleive)a week or have to deal with a comparatively significant fine. Not the best example as i think they've since revoked the law but it provides a fine example as to how far the government is willing to go to sustain publicly owned companies.


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## H82LUZ73 (Aug 6, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> VHS filled a void in the market as much as DVD did.  The same goes for tapes to CDs for the music industry.  Namely, VHS required rewinding and altering the tracking to get a good picture and DVDs have neither of those downsides.  The only real downside of a DVD player is that it can't serve as a mixing device like VHS could (merge various analog channels into one) but, because that is over the average consumer's need/want/care, DVD killed VHS virtually overnight.
> 
> got toppled virtually overnight for the same reasons VHS did--no more rewinding.
> 
> ...



All good points But you must be to to young to remember the Vinyl records and 8 track tapes which what was replaced by Cassettes ,All were put to pasture in 86 when Cd formats hit.Then in 89 laser discs,Then High end like 5 grand for a DVD format player and If i`m not mistaken only a handful of movies at the time,Dvd players went down in the mid 90`s and got cheaper .

I just rented a few Blu_ray movie at Blockbuster and it would cost me $15 for 2 nights rental,Yesterday it cost me $11.36 for 2 nights ,So who ever said Blu_Ray is not coming down in price needs to do research about it instead of saying IT COSTS TOO MUCH....


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 6, 2009)

I didn't go into vinyls/8-track because it isn't relevant to the discussion...

8-track killed vinyls because cars had 8-track players--not a stable enough platform for vinyls.  Cassettes killed 8-track also because cars had them (and boom boxes, Sony Walkman).  CD toppled cassettes because you no longer had to rewind (and availability in cars, Sony Discman).

Vinyls are making a minor come back while DVD audio (24-bit) flopped.


Personally, I think BD-DVD will never come to mainstream use.  Something else (it could be CBHD but I sure hope not) will come a long with features people actually want before it can become cheap/worthwhile.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 6, 2009)

Blu ray will phase out DVD movies, its inevitable just like DVD did with VHS and thats just it, when the price comes down enough ( you can literally get a blu ray player for 89-99 dollars). They will be used by many people and the dvd will be done for movies


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 7, 2009)

BD-DVD disks are expensive to manufacturer.  The price will come down a ways yet but it will never be cheaper than DVDs or CDs to manufacturer.  DL DVDs are still expensive.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 7, 2009)

Another thought.....Flash drives are well within HD transfer rates and they are getting cheaper by the day, Literally......Thus why most Tv makers put ports on theere  TV's, I think once people realize that you can put more than pics on those things, Things will start to change, Which is what "Digital copy" is working towards as well. How nice would it be to have your entire collection on a thumb drive


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 7, 2009)

yes Dual layer dvds are expensive still and harder to find, but your not looking at it correctly, dvd's use to cost as much as blu ray did, than mass amounts of companies started making them cheaper and now they are cheap, it will happen with blu-ray, i'd give it til 2010 before blu- ray is the main market and dvd becomes the VHS of blockbuster,


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 7, 2009)

Yeah I'm one of those wierdo's that believes the internet and Tv are merging VIA a broad-band connection, and yeah that's most likely to be the end to a lot of stuff, why pay for cable when you get locals in HD over the air and cables shows for free online, at places like hulu, It's catching on faster than most people think and with several Tv's hitting the market that can do this without and help and uh some Blue-Ray players tune that stuff as well lol.


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## Wile E (Aug 7, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> I know, nobody thinks Blue-Ray will hit sudden death, However OnDemand Is working out the Legal ends to a Better Digital copy license that will not require a "player" but just a Broad band connection, in comes the New Pansonic Viera's  a few Sony's and a few Lg's That not only let you watch Netflix Ondemand etc... but allow you to watch Hulu etc.... all in HD so as i see it 2 years



None of those even come close to approaching the quality of a BD. The average US connection doesn't have the speed to stream HD movies in BD quality, not to mention the bandwidth caps ISPs have or are starting to implement.

No, BD is not going anywhere as an HD format for a long time yet. The internet infrastructure will not allow the full move to digital downloads.



jmcslob said:


> Yeah I'm one of those wierdo's that believes the internet and Tv are merging VIA a broad-band connection, and yeah that's most likely to be the end to a lot of stuff, why pay for cable when you get locals in HD over the air and cables shows for free online, at places like hulu, It's catching on faster than most people think and with several Tv's hitting the market that can do this without and help and uh some Blue-Ray players tune that stuff as well lol.


Again, the quality is sub-standard, and we still need to think about bandwidth caps. Still not gonna be near the maintream for many, many years. I'd be willing to bet there's more people with BD players at this point.



jmcslob said:


> Another thought.....Flash drives are well within HD transfer rates and they are getting cheaper by the day, Literally......Thus why most Tv makers put ports on theere  TV's, I think once people realize that you can put more than pics on those things, Things will start to change, Which is what "Digital copy" is working towards as well. How nice would it be to have your entire collection on a thumb drive


Now, this makes the most sense as a compromise. Eliminate disk based players, and sell movies on flash media. You get the best of all worlds then. You get physical media, full quality, equal or better portability, better durability, and don't have to worry about bandwidth. Doesn't have to be USB, it can be an all-new connector, for all I care, but flash storage makes the most sense.



As far as CBHD, they can keep it. I want nothing to do with anything the Chinese govt was involved in the development of, or has total control of. Besides, it may be cheap in China, but you know damn well they would charge a hell of a lot more for the units outside of their own country.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 7, 2009)

i agree with you Wile E, see i don't think people understand customers want to OWN it not rent it, it's why they sell this shit, some/most techy kinda guys are happy with 150 gb of movies on a hard  drive at sub standard quality, and watching it on there tv/pc. But truth be told in less than a year from now blu ray will be 25 dollars and under (walmart even has them for 10 dollars) and the players will be found in the sub 50 dollar market.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 7, 2009)

> As far as CBHD, they can keep it. I want nothing to do with anything the Chinese govt was involved in the development of, or has total control of. Besides, it may be cheap in China, but you know damn well they would charge a hell of a lot more for the units outside of their own country.


no real argument there
I read about a really interesting article about a law suit against cable broad band companies, from other major corps about how the cable companies can't restrict internet downloads for tv programs since the Cable companies went Internet themselves with QAM, but then comes your very good point about not a good enough infrastructure, which the U.S govt should get involved with since the Broad band companies collect a fee to further the infrastructure, which they have been known to pocket 75% of,


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## Wile E (Aug 7, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> no real argument there


I think it's a perfectly good argument. A capitalist government such as ours in the US is not to be trusted, let alone a communist government, such as China. They aren't trustworthy, plain and simple.


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## laszlo (Aug 7, 2009)

i think blu ray will die ...and movies will be sold or rented on flash drives;just plug in tv and watch..


flash memory manuf. prices goes down faster than  bd disk as they move on lower nm


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 7, 2009)

Wile E said:


> I think it's a perfectly good argument. A capitalist government such as ours in the US is not to be trusted, let alone a communist government, such as China. They aren't trustworthy, plain and simple.


my bad i was just saying you have good points,and i have no real argument with em


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## MilkyWay (Aug 7, 2009)

china had its own proprietary dvd and it didnt sell outside of china at an educated guess this is the same dealio


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 7, 2009)

This has been in the works for years now.  This isn't something that spring up a few months ago.  I had forgotten about it and now it appears they are doing just fine in their own market.  If that trends continues they will expand to other markets, it's inevitable. Because no one is going to care who made it, if they can watch movies in HD at much lower cost then a BR movie people are going to buy it.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

EastCoasthandle said:


> This has been in the works for years now.  This isn't something that spring up a few months ago.  I had forgotten about it and now it appears they are doing just fine in their own market.  If that trends continues they will expand to other markets, it's inevitable. Because no one is going to care who made it, if they can watch movies in HD at much lower cost then a BR movie people are going to buy it.



yes your right IF they can get it cheaper, by the time it gets over here ...blu ray will cost the same if not less than DVD, we all know here as technology grows it gets cheaper hell i remember when to build a decent and i mean decent gaming pc it was over 1200 dollars, now with 1200 you can get an amazing machine and still have money for food.

Same thing except incase some people are just oblivous to whats going on, blockbuster is phasing out DVD they are selling them for like 3 dollars a piece and are getting more blu ray in, 

blu ray players prices are dropping way faster than dvd player prices did when it first came out. movies also cost almost the same exact of a dvd with a buttload more features.

blu ray is far from dead a matter of fact this is exactly how its suppose to be.  by Christmas blu ray players will be 60-90 dollars (already can be found for 90 so maybe even less). One leg up that blu ray has that DVD didnt have was you can use the DVD's in the blu ray drive so thats still a good feature, you couldn't use your VHS tapes in your dvd player UNLESS you bought the over priced dual player. and the China HD movies wont have dvd support so thats a big negative. i have over 200 dvd's and probably like 30 blu ray. And im glad i don't need two separate players to watch them


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> yes your right IF they can get it cheaper, by the time it gets over here ...blu ray will cost the same if not less than DVD, we all know here as technology grows it gets cheaper hell i remember when to build a decent and i mean decent gaming pc it was over 1200 dollars, now with 1200 you can get an amazing machine and still have money for food.


I seriously doubt the price will drop as you claim it.  They know that BR is a niche market so I wouldn't get your hopes up regarding price drops like that. 




joinmeindeath417 said:


> Same thing except incase some people are just oblivous to whats going on, blockbuster is phasing out DVD they are selling them for like 3 dollars a piece and are getting more blu ray in,


I've never read any news saying this .  




joinmeindeath417 said:


> blu ray players prices are dropping way faster than dvd player prices did when it first came out. movies also cost almost the same exact of a dvd with a buttload more features.


That really isn't relevant do to DVD's market maturity.  Specially when you can go to Walmart and get them for few bucks in their bargin bin.




joinmeindeath417 said:


> blu ray is far from dead a matter of fact this is exactly how its suppose to be.  by Christmas blu ray players will be 60-90 dollars (already can be found for 90 so maybe even less). One leg up that blu ray has that DVD didnt have was you can use the DVD's in the blu ray drive so thats still a good feature, you couldn't use your VHS tapes in your dvd player UNLESS you bought the over priced dual player. and the China HD movies wont have dvd support so thats a big negative. i have over 200 dvd's and probably like 30 blu ray. And im glad i don't need two separate players to watch them


I see the problem here after reading this portion of your post. Thanks for clarifying it for me.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

you doubt the price will drop? 

Thats odd cause a month ago a blu ray player would run you about 250-300 dollars?

now you can get one for 89.99?

blu rays last month were going for over 30 dollars

now most new releases are 20-25 dollars ( same as the dvd release)
and even the "bargain" blu ray movies for 10 bucks 

hmm yeah blu rays dying

http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/blu-ray-celebrates-91-percent-sales-increase-for-first-half-of-2/


yep...really....fading...out...this is in no defense something unrealistic, we will never see the china HD stuff, are you completely ignoring how dvd took over the market? do you not remember how VHS just slowly faded away? it's going to be the same way

back then 

you bought a VHS you got a movie, BUT the dvd had better quality, more features, extra scenes easier navigating

they still had both formats VHS just was a lot cheaper than DVD
so when DVD dropped in price VHS was unheard of...

Same thing is happening with blu ray

DVD has good quality,some extras and features.
Blu ray, most movies have BD live,more features and way better quality
cost more than DVD...but are dropping down in price just like DVD did.


Blu ray isn't going anywhere its a love it or hate it format and spending what i did on my lcd tv i'd rather enjoy the extra quality. like i said before people who want to buy things aren't going to buy digital because it's not a hard copy especially with movies, thats why digital will be left for renting and xbox and ps3 where you can buy the movie or rent it and most just rent.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 8, 2009)

sorry but blu-ray is going to be around for atleast 7 more years. people are adopting HD and blu-ray now. they arent about to spend money on a brand new format. especially one owned by the chinese government.


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> you doubt the price will drop?
> 
> Thats odd cause a month ago a blu ray player would run you about 250-300 dollars?
> 
> ...


You really are just rambling here and a lot of what you said isn't true at all.  All one has to do is go to retail store and look at the prices of BR (for example).  What you are forgetting here is that your perception isn't everyone else's.  And a lot of what you posted is only implied by you not me.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

yeah you can go to. walmart look at the price of blu ray its pretty cheap not as cheap as dvd but it will happen eventually? how is this rambling if you want links theres plenty or you could just go on retail websites and see for yourself?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...+ray&lp=10&type=product&cp=2&id=1218067604633

i do believe that says 99 dollars?

you to go walmart they have plenty of blu ray moves from 10-25 dollars? 

and you saying rambling as in?

how i explained the end of VHS?

EDIT:

Just to clarify this is just going against the intial post about death of blu ray by Chinese HD format 
not to anyone personally.

all im saying is the next format is Blu Ray to take over, there wont be another one out DVD and BD DVD are whats going to be around as the main format for purchasing movies, and IF by the time this stuff came over seas with all the middle man bullshit it would take to get it here. By that time BD DVD will be cheap enough where people will buy it.


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> yeah you can go to. walmart look at the price of blu ray its pretty cheap not as cheap as dvd but it will happen eventually? how is this rambling if you want links theres plenty or you could just go on retail websites and see for yourself?
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...+ray&lp=10&type=product&cp=2&id=1218067604633
> 
> ...


And no BR live, 1 year warranty, no dvi outputs for those with older HDTVs and no HDMI input? It's worth $50 in my book.  This is an example of why I believe you are rambling here.  A lot of what you say and what you think will happen is only based on your perception.  But you are trying to pass it off as fact here.  You think this is a good buy just because it $99.  I think it's a horrible buy for what you get.

This thread really isn't about how you feel about BR.  But about CBHD as it's been around since 2007 if I remember correctly.  If they start off with low price movies and reasonably prices players people will take notice.  The only major difference that I know of is that it will use AVC format.  But we will have to wait and see how things develop for them as it's really to early to tell right now.  We have to wait and see if more studios support them.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

no HDMI input? why would you need it

no BD live? uh yes there is?

no there is no DVI output...

i think its a good buy for 90 dollars comepared to some over 250 dollars.

EDIT:

sorry for the confusion i think you are mistaken as input means a sorce going in (what your tv has), output is the source going from the player to the TV. and as far as a good buy cause of the price? no it's because i have one of these and it works fine for what i use it for just as good at the ps3 blu ray drive.


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## Triprift (Aug 8, 2009)

Cant see how this would be seen as put to death as the op says the biggest problem they got is Chinese government unless they have no refernce to it. And having it here in Oz with import costs and the time it will take to be here by then blue rays will be at a price to were they wont win over many.


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> no HDMI input? why would you need it
> 
> no BD live? uh yes there is?
> 
> ...


Which is all about you.  Not about the average joe.  Which is why this debate is fruitless.  And in any case is gone off topic IMO.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

wait your telling me the average joe wouldn't look at the price and pick this up vs a 250 dollar one? 
price point has everything to do with it, and these features are everything a blu ray player is used for and has every function (besides optional dvi out put)

i find that hard to believe

and this is not off topic its proving that cost wise blu ray is getting affordable to the "average joe" thus ruling out this china hd stuff


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> wait your telling me the average joe wouldn't look at the price and pick this up vs a 250 dollar one?
> price point has everything to do with it, and these features are everything a blu ray player is used for and has every function (besides optional dvi out put)
> 
> i find that hard to believe
> ...


What has been reported is that CHBHD is out selling BR 3 to 1.  Arguing with me that you think BR is getting affordable becomes moot when people already have an alternative at a much cheaper price.  That's why it's off topic to me as you are making apple to orange counterpoint.  A movie in their market is less then $5.00 which is what a bargain bin DVD movie would cost here at walmart.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

yes in CHINA, this is about if it was to come here, it wouldn't be the same out come far from if it ever became a reality.


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> yes in CHINA, this is about if it was to come here, it wouldn't be the same out come far from if it ever became a reality.


You have nothing to base that from. No one knows right now.


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## Triprift (Aug 8, 2009)

Yeah in China wich dont means its going to outsell BR in western countries.


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## AsRock (Aug 8, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> *Blu ray will phase out DVD movies,* its inevitable just like DVD did with VHS and thats just it, when the price comes down enough ( you can literally get a blu ray player for 89-99 dollars). They will be used by many people and the dvd will be done for movies



Maybe,  there is a good chance of it or you might get what happened to Beta max were VHS took place of it due to being much cheaper.

If Blu Ray stays at the prices it is for to long some thing else will come and take it's place if there not careful.


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## DaveK (Aug 8, 2009)

Price for Blu-ray isn't bad at the moment, you can get a player for as low as €179 and a decent Sony for as low as €219 and a good Samsung for €279, as for movies you can get them new for as low as €10, a crap load for less than €20 and a lot of deals like 2 for €30 on Play.com, I buy movies and DVD from Play.com and they have a lot of good prices. 

I think those prices are pretty dam good considering most people I know don't have a BD player, only ones that do are PS3. I was surprised that when the PS3 came out Blu-ray went from nowhere to having shelves at movie rental stores, it took off pretty well. Prices probably won't drop too much on movies, just a matter of time before the players get cheap and everyone has one.

These are some of the top sellers on Play.com: 

300: €11.99
Sin City: €14.49
The Dark Knight: €16.99
Terminator 2: €9.49
Rambo First Blood: €9.49
Batman Begins: €12.99
Transporter 3: €12.99
Harry Potter 1-5: €50.99
Ghostbusters: €15.49
Yes Man: €11.99
Rambo II: €9.49

And so on, as you can see those are some really good prices, I don't have a problem with Blu-ray, the only problem I have is that I don't have the money lol, I have to buy a surround sound before I buy a BD player.


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## Triprift (Aug 8, 2009)

If the format was to work then it would need alot of promotion and advertising to get it to going from local distributors wich would cost money and would be a big risk. Sounds good with cheaper players and disc in your own country but getting it to work in other countries would be tough. would be good as it would create competition wich is desperatly needed but would not kill BR imho.


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## Wile E (Aug 8, 2009)

EastCoasthandle said:


> And no BR live, 1 year warranty, no dvi outputs for those with older HDTVs and no HDMI input? It's worth $50 in my book.  This is an example of why I believe you are rambling here.  A lot of what you say and what you think will happen is only based on your perception.  But you are trying to pass it off as fact here.  You think this is a good buy just because it $99.  I think it's a horrible buy for what you get.
> 
> This thread really isn't about how you feel about BR.  But about CBHD as it's been around since 2007 if I remember correctly.  If they start off with low price movies and reasonably prices players people will take notice.  The only major difference that I know of is that it will use AVC format.  But we will have to wait and see how things develop for them as it's really to early to tell right now.  We have to wait and see if more studios support them.



DVI outputs? Why would you need a Blu Ray player to have a DVI output? Most of them don't have DVI out to begin with. All you need is an HDMI-DVI adapter or cable, and presto, you have a DVI output. I had to use one on my old HDTV

And only *recorders* need an input, not *players*. Not even DVD players have inputs.

And so what if it's his opinion? His opinions are based on factual observations of a different market (the DVD vs VHS market of the past). It's only your opinion that people will take notice of CBHD in any other market than China. Your opinion is also based on factual observations from a different market, so why is his irrelevant, but not yours?

And I happen to agree with his opinion. It's my opinion BD is here to stay for at least a few more years, and as SD TV's are fazed out, and hardware and disc prices keep dropping, more and more people will be adopting it, leading to DVD slowly fazing out. I do not believe CBHD has a chance in the western markets.



Triprift said:


> If the format was to work then it would need alot of promotion and advertising to get it to going from local distributors wich would cost money and would be a big risk. Sounds good with cheaper players and disc in your own country but getting it to work in other countries would be tough. would be good as it would create competition wich is desperatly needed but would not kill BR imho.



Actually, the multi-format competition is bad for the market. Look at Beta vs VHS or HDDVD vs BD as examples of how multiple formats hurt the adoption rates of new techs.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2009)

Remember, this economy is still in a sad state so it is a hard sell to convince someone to buy a player for $100+ and disks at $30+.  The economic did a great deal of damage to the buy-it-to-show-it-off attitude and returned to do-I-really-need-it attitude.  All three formats of HD strain to make that sell.

HD will only take off when the prices get competitive (initial and long term) with DVDs.  People can justify spending $20 extra on an HD player  and $5 extra on an HD disk, not double the price of DVD.


Since advertising killed HD-DVD (ads claiming Toshiba bribed studios), the format most able to fast track HD adaption got killed.  CBHD is a revival of the HD-DVD format and, considering the economics, could sweep the market only if studios start releasing in that format.

BD-DVD was too expensive in the beginning and is still expensive today.  A good comparison is that HD-DVD/CBHD started accelerating in second gear from a dead start while BD-DVD started accelerating in fourth gear.  HD-DVD/CBHD will come to be adopted much quicker than BD-DVD because of the costs but it will eventually be passed up by BD-DVD because BD-DVD is a more advanced technology that may be necessary (higher capacity) down the road.  BD-DVD was never set to sweep the market like HD-DVD/CBHD.


If CBHD (China Blue High Definition) is to succeed outside of China, that C has to go away.


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## Wile E (Aug 8, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember, this economy is still in a sad state so it is a hard sell to convince someone to buy a player for $100+ and disks at $30+.  The economic did a great deal of damage to the buy-it-to-show-it-off attitude and returned to do-I-really-need-it attitude.  All three formats of HD strain to make that sell.
> 
> HD will only take off when the prices get competitive (initial and long term) with DVDs.  People can justify spending $20 extra on an HD player  and $5 extra on an HD disk, not double the price of DVD.
> 
> ...


Except that BD's do not cost double the DVD's, and the hardware prices are already failing rapidly. And CBHD will not be adopted quicker, as multiple formats just cause confusion, and hinder adoption of all formats involved. CBHD would only hurt the HD disc market here.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2009)

Wile E said:


> Except that BD's do not cost double the DVD's, and the hardware prices are already failing rapidly. And CBHD will not be adopted quicker, as multiple formats just cause confusion, and hinder adoption of all formats involved. CBHD would only hurt the HD disc market here.


Example: Blood Diamond
DVD $8.49
BD-DVD $17.99

Just over double the price...


Example: Sony players...
Sony DVP-SR200P/B DVD Player $39.99
Sony BDP-S350 1080p Blu-ray Disc Player $222.88

Over five times more expensive.


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## Wile E (Aug 8, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Example: Blood Diamond
> DVD $8.49
> BD-DVD $17.99
> 
> ...


Yet there are $10 BD's at wal-mart (Blood Diamond is $15), and $99 bd players. You just chose extreme examples.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2009)

Those at Wal-Mart are on sale.  DVDs go on sale for as low as $5, for comparsion.  They reduce the price to make room for new inventory.


I just chose Sony and compared prices for the technology (taking the cheapest "new" price of each on the first page of results).  The same story repeats with any manufacturer--Blu-Ray costs substantially more.


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## Wile E (Aug 8, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Those at Wal-Mart are on sale.  They reduce the price to make room for new inventory.
> 
> 
> I just chose Sony and compared prices for the technology (taking the cheapest "new" price of each on the first page of results).  The same story repeats with any manufacturer--Blu-Ray costs substantially more.



And so did DVD vs VHS when they first released. It took years for DVDs to be affordable as well. The point is, prices are falling, and fairly steadily. For CBHD to have even a remote chance outside of China, it needs to hit now, and it needs to hit at DVD prices, otherwise, they stand no chance.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2009)

I said that because of BD-DVD disk design (requires an anti-scratch layer that is optional on DVD/HD-DVD), it will always be more expensive to manufacture than HD-DVD and DVD.  Players will come down a ways yet but I think the disks are getting close to their bottom.


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## Wile E (Aug 8, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I said that because of BD-DVD disk design (requires an anti-scratch layer that is optional on DVD/HD-DVD), it will always be more expensive to manufacture than HD-DVD and DVD.  Players will come down a ways yet but I think the disks are getting close to their bottom.



It's not an anti-scratch layer that makes them expensive, it's the relative lack of volume compared to DVD. All DVDs and HD DVDs have an anti-scratch protection as well. The only exception is cheap, low quality, blank media. It's normal optical disc design to have something that gives scratch resistance. 

BD's aren't anywhere near their bottom prices. They'll be as cheap as DVDs are now sometime in the future. Even if it is the scratch protection layer keeping them expensive, the process will get cheaper with time, as they make refinements.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2009)

Wile E said:


> It's not an anti-scratch layer that makes them expensive, it's the relative lack of volume compared to DVD. All DVDs and HD DVDs have an anti-scratch protection as well.


The volume is the only x factor which is why I said BD-DVD is "getting close to their bottom," not the bottom.

The only DVDs I know of that had the anti-scratch layer were the Verbatim ScratchGuard series of disks; however, they didn't sell well so the product was discontinued.  CDs, DVDs, and HD-DVDs are protected by using an extra thick layer of plastic (shave a bit off to give it a "like new" appearance and operation).  BD-DVDs have the anti-scratch layer because the thick layer of plastic interferes with the laser signal.


Process doesn't change much either.  The most significant cost of producing opitical disks is the material from which they are fabricated.  That hasn't changed much (aluminium or gold reflective layer) throughout the life of CDs or DVDs so why would it change for BD-DVD?


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## Cuzza (Aug 8, 2009)

Sounds to me like an even cheaper way for the chinese to boot-leg movies. Why would the studios support that?


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

AsRock said:


> Maybe,  there is a good chance of it or you might get what happened to Beta max were VHS took place of it due to being much cheaper.
> 
> If Blu Ray stays at the prices it is for to long some thing else will come and take it's place if there not careful.



Oh i agree 100 percent but look at how drastically there coming down a month ago blu ray new releases were 39.99 now there around 29.99 and some even 24.99 down to 19.99

All i was trying to point out is this is the natural chain that movie format goes through like VHS you will see the dvd versions of the movie for less than the blu-ray til the end of its cycle but  when they strip all the features and stuff from the dvd counter part people with BR players will just go for the "better experience" and eventually wipe out DVD


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 8, 2009)

so after reading through these posts ive concluded that people are STILL bitter that blu-ray is the winning HD format. if you think that blu-ray is going to be replaced in the next 7-8 years i've got a bridge to sell yea in the pacific ocean...


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 8, 2009)

Easy Rhino said:


> so after reading through these posts ive concluded that people are STILL bitter that blu-ray is the winning HD format. if you think that blu-ray is going to be replaced in the next 7-8 years i've got a bridge to sell yea in the pacific ocean...


Well then I'll buy it LOL.... 7-8 years haha.....                  2-3 tops TOPS!


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 8, 2009)

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemupdates/default.htm
you might not see how this relates to movies but i do.....
Another odd thought for ya. My Dvr is an external hard drive Yeah i paid 39.99 for the DRM but other than the cost of the Hard drive that DRM fee is all i will ever pay to DISH for it,and like i said DIGITAL COPY is working out the remainder of the legal ends for a workable DRM with the studio's for direct download to such device's, yeah you'll have to wait for it to download but no more than watching movies on demand as it will be the same but you just record at the same time


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 8, 2009)

i honestly think that "game on demand" market isn't going to do so great. who wants to own a digital copy of a system game, the hard drive failure rate will increase by a lot thus what will you do when you bought 5 games off xbox live, your hard drive craps out and you have to go buy another 120gb hard drive? hmmmm seems like your spending more than anything.

I don't know any console gamers that think this digital download of games is a good idea who is so lazy that they can't go to the store and buy a copy of a game.

I'd really like to see how rated M games are going to work with this "technology" hell you only need to be 13 to make an xbox live account, now what if that 13 year old wants to buy grand theft auto 4, what kind of "parental consent" will they use. 

one again, this digital download stuff is only attractive to the people who don't have a library of stuff or if digital is the only way to get it, i don't see the customers not having a game/movie to add to there collection cause it cost the same exact price to download the game/movie as it would cost to buy it (and no not renting).

Now if xbox had a rent games on demand system, that would be awesome and i think way more efficient in terms of t his "digital download" stuff.


EDIT: i'd also like to include the fact that M$ even over prices the original xbox on demand game catalog 

Max payne 2: Gamestop price 4.99  M$ price 15 dollars haha..
Splinter Cell CT: Gamestop 3.99 M$ 15 dollars a matter of fact only a few games are comparable in price to how much it cost on live (halo and a few others)

so how much do you think these 360 games on demand will cost? hmm


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 9, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> i honestly think that "game on demand" market isn't going to do so great. who wants to own a digital copy of a system game, the hard drive failure rate will increase by a lot thus what will you do when you bought 5 games off xbox live, your hard drive craps out and you have to go buy another 120gb hard drive? hmmmm seems like your spending more than anything.
> 
> I don't know any console gamers that think this digital download of games is a good idea who is so lazy that they can't go to the store and buy a copy of a game.
> 
> ...


$20 for a game-i hope-I have gamefly as well , and the reason i think will catch on....SNOW
I see you live in NJ I live in NEO in the snow belt....That's what gets me to go along with most of this stuff
Remember D2D and Steam they are doing quite well


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 9, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> Well then I'll buy it LOL.... 7-8 years haha.....                  2-3 tops TOPS!



2-3 years?? ok, ive got a bridge in the pacific. going price is $10,000,000 please paypal me the money and it is yours!


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## madmanjohn (Aug 9, 2009)

niko084 said:


> I don't own a bluray player either...
> I refuse to pay the outrageous price for Sony's half rate inefficient technology.



best thing about sony software is a good keygen


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 9, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> $20 for a game-i hope-I have gamefly as well , and the reason i think will catch on....SNOW
> I see you live in NJ I live in NEO in the snow belt....That's what gets me to go along with most of this stuff
> Remember D2D and Steam they are doing quite well



Oh i agree with Steam and D2D but those are PC's man, a lot of PC games can't be bought in store anymore, Consoles are like night and day, and i feel for you on the SNOW thats gotta suck. 

I'm telling you i bet on the 11th assassins creed will cost 29.99 haha, when you can get it with a disk/manual and case for 19.99 at gamestop.  Not including what i said about the Hard drive, The 360 hard drive is so expensive if it breaks from using it too much than its going to suck to have to spend the money to get a new one.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

http://www.themediamall.com/playon#get-started
more services on the way


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## Wile E (Aug 10, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The volume is the only x factor which is why I said BD-DVD is "getting close to their bottom," not the bottom.
> 
> The only DVDs I know of that had the anti-scratch layer were the Verbatim ScratchGuard series of disks; however, they didn't sell well so the product was discontinued.  CDs, DVDs, and HD-DVDs are protected by using an extra thick layer of plastic (shave a bit off to give it a "like new" appearance and operation).  BD-DVDs have the anti-scratch layer because the thick layer of plastic interferes with the laser signal.
> 
> ...


Right, and a BD is constructed pretty much the same as HDDVD, CDs, and DVD's. "Stratch protection" is just a marketing ploy, to make them sound more scratch resistant.

What I'm saying is, it is not the cost of production that keeps BD prices high.



jmcslob said:


> http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemupdates/default.htm
> you might not see how this relates to movies but i do.....
> Another odd thought for ya. My Dvr is an external hard drive Yeah i paid 39.99 for the DRM but other than the cost of the Hard drive that DRM fee is all i will ever pay to DISH for it,and like i said DIGITAL COPY is working out the remainder of the legal ends for a workable DRM with the studio's for direct download to such device's, yeah you'll have to wait for it to download but no more than watching movies on demand as it will be the same but you just record at the same time



Games are a completely different market than movies. Games generally last longer than a movie in terms of hours of entertainment, and the quality of a downloaded game is not reduced like a streamed HD movie is. A full BD quality movie would require 17GB or more, just for the movie. That doesn't include any of the bonus content. Not to mention, the bitrate is so high, that most peoples connections won't enable streaming of it, so they have to wait hours for their download to finish. In most cases, it would be quicker to just go to the video store and rent or buy it.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

Easy Rhino said:


> 2-3 years?? ok, ive got a bridge in the pacific. going price is $10,000,000 please paypal me the money and it is yours!


Under normal circumstances I would totally agree with what you are saying. But in this world economy something better has to come out, sooner than 7-8 years.I hear what everybody is saying, BR may be great,it's prices may be falling, but so is BR. The only reason prices are coming down is because Walmart demands it, has nothing to do with costs. In 2-3 years when the world economy is doing much better and people are buying the now new 240hz triple layer 62" LCD's with a near 3D effect, they are gonna want something better than BR, even though BR would be just fine another better product will be out (probably on the next XBOX or PS4) Oh yeah in 3 years I bet the really fast SATELLITE Internet services will be down in price like the 3mb/s up and 100mb/s down will be priced around $70 a month, those hold a lot of promise in my eyes, no wires all wireless


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

I have to disagree that BR prices have anything to do with "BR falling" honestly did you read the article i posted BR is up 91 percent sales over last quarter how is that failing? It has nothing to do with the market failing its just getting cheaper to manufacture and now there are stand alone BR players that can cost you 90 dollars. If anything that's showing promise, and i really doubt you'll see a "better" format out in 7-8 years, the capacity of BR is up to 50gb of information, people aren't going to NEED more for a while.  I honestly think that the next xbox will probably be a blu ray format, and i know your going to say "M$ declined that" yea..for THIS xbox, it would be the stupidest idea for them to release a 360 with a BR drive because it is like giving all the die hard M$ fan's a slap to the face cause if they want that game that is ONLY on BR they need that special xbox etc. i have to say BR shows a lot of promise in its size and quality companies will probably do nothing but utilize the technology even more down the road. 

And please what do you mean "in this worlds economy something better has to come out"

do you mean "in this worlds economy something cheaper and better has to come out"

because well, lets face it, if you want good things they are cheap if you want better things they are great.

EDIT:

and if 50gb of storage isn't enough, how about 500gb..
yea on blu ray

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1616

Germany seems to like Blu Ray
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=3215


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## razaron (Aug 10, 2009)

does blueray have better quality than HD?
if it is, blueray wont die until something with better quality comes out. if it isnt, blueray has most of the anime market (i think its all of it _only_ vs HD) and the godfather.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 10, 2009)

Wile E said:


> Right, and a BD is constructed pretty much the same as HDDVD, CDs, and DVD's. "Stratch protection" is just a marketing ploy, to make them sound more scratch resistant.


It is not a marketing ploy.  Without the anti-scratch surface, just a few inserts/removals from a disk tray would render the disk unreadable.

http://www.pctechguide.com/38Blu-ray_Disks-BD.htm

Scroll down to the table...
"Hard coating needed"
DVD: No
BD: Yes

Also notice the difference under
"Substrate + cover layer (mm)"
DVD: 0.6 + 0.6
BD: 1.1 + 0.1


More info here:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-state-of-the-s-union-s-division/


> Herein lies the issues associated with the higher cost of Blu-ray discs. This thinner surface layer is what makes the discs cost more; because Blu-ray discs do not share the same surface layer thickness of DVDs, costly production facilities must be modified or replaced in order to produce the discs. A special hard coating (Durabis) must also be applied to Blu-ray discs to ensure they're sufficiently resilient to protect the data that's a mere 0.1mm beneath the surface -- *this also drives the cost up*.  The added benefit of keeping the data layer closer to the surface, however, is more room for extra layers, and way more potential data than HD DVD.






razaron said:


> does blueray have better quality than HD?
> if it is, blueray wont die until something with better quality comes out. if it isnt, blueray has most of the anime market (i think its all of it _only_ vs HD) and the godfather.


Visual is the same.  HD-DVD has better standard audio though.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> I have to disagree that BR prices have anything to do with "BR falling" honestly did you read the article i posted BR is up 91 percent sales over last quarter how is that failing? It has nothing to do with the market failing its just getting cheaper to manufacture and now there are stand alone BR players that can cost you 90 dollars. If anything that's showing promise, and i really doubt you'll see a "better" format out in 7-8 years, the capacity of BR is up to 50gb of information, people aren't going to NEED more for a while.  I honestly think that the next xbox will probably be a blu ray format, and i know your going to say "M$ declined that" yea..for THIS xbox, it would be the stupidest idea for them to release a 360 with a BR drive because it is like giving all the die hard M$ fan's a slap to the face cause if they want that game that is ONLY on BR they need that special xbox etc. i have to say BR shows a lot of promise in its size and quality companies will probably do nothing but utilize the technology even more down the road.
> 
> And please what do you mean "in this worlds economy something better has to come out"
> 
> ...


Your right BR is gettin cheaper and has room to grow, lots of room, and by cheaper I don't mean less quality. I just seen a DVR/DLNA/BR/internet Device which I am interested in.....$499... Now that's worth it to me,so i guess I'm going back on a lot of what I said.... I talked to Dish customer support and they said I could connect it to my SAT receiver (thru usb+39.99 drm fee)....Wow... Hey it's more than a BR player it has everything else i want and i guess the BR will be a plus, but i would not have paid $100 for just a BR player alone. My problem with all this though is I could not do the same with a HTPC because of "drm" issues.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

yeah but what does this have to do with the topic at hand? the topic was about CBHD taking over Blu ray...not DVR/STREAMING taking over Blu ray

Especially being the TOPIC starter, this whole time i was just talking mainly about how this CBHD will NOT take over Blu ray...


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 10, 2009)

It depends if the studios adopt it or not.


The way I see it, Sony used their position (smear marketing) to shut HD-DVD down.  HD-DVD was the right technology at the right time but it wasn't given a chance to gain traction.

CBHD is virtually the same technology and the window for "right" is closing.  If you have the same movies that look and sound the same but one is cheaper in every way, the cheaper format will win.  The only way that can be realized though, is if studios start publishing movies on CBHD.


There's two problems with that though:
1) Most/all studios are already tooled for BD-DVD.  To switch to CBHD is going to cost them a pretty penny.  They'll shake their head and so no, not worth it.
2) Just like in this thread, if consumers know this is a product developed by the Chinese government, the CBHD format would die quickly.  You wouldn't even have to try to spark a mass hysteria over the product--it would be like throwing a match in a gas tank.

Random thought: what movies are actually being published on CBHD?  Just films from Chinese studios?  I can't imagine any western films already being published on that format.  At the same time, your average Chinese family probably isn't going to want to buy CBHD and BD-DVD players for Chinese films and Western films, respectively.  Do these CBHD players already support BD-DVD?  Why did China bother to sponsor developing it?


If Western publishers haven't gone for it already, there's a good chance they won't.  It is too expensive to switch and too risky from a marketing standpoint.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> yeah but what does this have to do with the topic at hand? the topic was about CBHD taking over Blu ray...not DVR/STREAMING taking over Blu ray
> 
> Especially being the TOPIC starter, this whole time i was just talking mainly about how this CBHD will NOT take over Blu ray...


Right got a little exited there, your most likely right that CBHD will not catch on here in the states or most of the world, However it really does hurt Blue-ray with over a billion customers that are basically cut off from Blue-ray due to their Govt. I still think a cheaper world format maybe CBHD will put an end to blue-ray, i get it it's getting cheaper and has room to grow, but I still think 2-3 years till it's replaced, to put it simply there is to much interest in something else for most people for Blue-ray to survive, If you remember when DVD players first came out it only took 1 year to be competitive with a high spec HIFI 4head VCR, now how longs BLUE-Ray been out, a lot of people believe Blue-ray is basically a fad, a short hop and a skip towards something better, which Blue-ray players themselves are helping bring about, such as the device i was talking about in my last post, I could care less if it has a Blue-ray player on it, I'm getting it for my bedroom (gotta admit though I'm curious about the BR porn)
But as for BLUE-RAY in general they just took a major blow from China, Not having the worlds fastest growing economy behind any product would be devastating,CBHD might not be the end of BR but it's a major setback, and as far as China and it's billions of consumers are concerned BR is dead


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

you also have to remember the studios, most of them are signed up to Sony's blu ray, concidering that would be a "competing" format i don't think with the fact that sony has such a large base of studios CBHD will really see anything more than a few studios


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It depends if the studios adopt it or not.
> 
> 
> The way I see it, Sony used their position (smear marketing) to shut HD-DVD down.  HD-DVD was the right technology at the right time but it wasn't given a chance to gain traction.
> ...


The studio's have no choice in the matter, If they want the sales it has to be DVD or CBHD to be sold in China, They will not support BR, And yes I have a problem with the Chinese Govt owning this format but it's supposed to allow the Chinese access to HD movies without the "royalties" to Sony and a small $.50 fee to Govt Thus reducing the cost to something like $8 per movie, which would still give the Studio's their entire Royalties per film and deliver a major blow to BLUE-ray
How do you think your business would do after being cut off from over a billion customers....It's a major blow anyway you look at it


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

Um yes the studios have a big part to do with it, HD DVD had like 3 or 4 studios under there belt while Blu Ray had the rest.. and look what happened.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> Um yes the studios have a big part to do with it, HD DVD had like 3 or 4 studios under there belt while Blu Ray had the rest.. and look what happened.


True but no Studio is going to turn down an entire market,especially a market that large


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

They won't turn down CHBD hmmm, i think they will....

Considering China is like the largest population of pirates, its a matter of time before people only buy the players and not the movies, if a company isn't seeing profit because street vendors are selling pirated copies of the movie...than whats the point in supporting a format thats basically doomed


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> They won't turn down CHBD hmmm, i think they will....
> 
> Considering China is like the largest population of pirates, its a matter of time before people only buy the players and not the movies, if a company isn't seeing profit because street vendors are selling pirated copies of the movie...than whats the point in supporting a format thats basically doomed


Pirating from the Chinese Govt=Death
It's one thing to pirate a BR or DVD but I don't think the average Chinese citizen will risk death to pay about the same price for a bootleg as a legit copy
That's no joke Theft from the peoples Republic=Death


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## phanbuey (Aug 10, 2009)

Why am I thinking that it is time to let go of discs?  

Usually the music industry foreshadows the technology in the film industry (if only because music is smaller and less complicated in nature than film).  Im pretty sure the next step for HD film will be some cheap form of solid state - like a USB flash key with a movie on it.

Solid state will be the next step in tandem with HD movies on demand.  Bluray will never see the kind of success DVD's saw.  At least IMO, it makes no sense to stick with huge disks when there can be a solid state cartridge can be 1/5 of the size and cheap.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

phanbuey said:


> Why am I thinking that it is time to let go of discs?
> 
> Usually the music industry foreshadows the technology in the film industry (if only because music is smaller and less complicated in nature than film).  Im pretty sure the next step for HD film will be some cheap form of solid state - like a USB flash key with a movie on it.
> 
> Solid state will be the next step in tandem with HD movies on demand.  Bluray will never see the kind of success DVD's saw.  At least IMO, it makes no sense to stick with huge disks when a solid state cartridge can be 1/5 of the size and cheap, and not get scratched...


I 100% agree Now take out billions of customers and BR is gone in about 2-3 years
Thus most likely The Chinese Put BR to Death with this major blow


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

ok even though with the research on the internet about the CBHD it seems like this is all in theory IF it ever came over seas and its highly unlikely that it will, i really do not see the death of blu ray in 2-3 years i think you may be one of the few who do, yes in CHINA the CBHD is great, here its not even known of, and many other places, Studios are refusing yes go check, REFUSING to release movies on CBHD, They don't see it as a popular market, The thing is Blu Ray has way more possiblities especially coming out with a 500gb disk within 2-3 years time, and about people not risking death to pirate stuff for "almost the same price as a legit copy" thats funny because thats like saying you wouldn't do what ever you had to to put food on the plate, trust me people will pirate CBHD movies, and they will cost probaby 2-5 dollars vs 10-15 dollars.

Your talking for all of China when you say they won't do it, when its already being talked about on the internet, its a matter of time thats all.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 10, 2009)

phanbuey said:


> Why am I thinking that it is time to let go of discs?
> 
> Usually the music industry foreshadows the technology in the film industry (if only because music is smaller and less complicated in nature than film).  Im pretty sure the next step for HD film will be some cheap form of solid state - like a USB flash key with a movie on it.
> 
> Solid state will be the next step in tandem with HD movies on demand.  Bluray will never see the kind of success DVD's saw.  At least IMO, it makes no sense to stick with huge disks when there can be a solid state cartridge can be 1/5 of the size and cheap.



i agree about the solid state thing but thats neither here nor there yet, the problem with that is probably security, thats like buying a 16gb flash drive and stuffing 15 movies on it. i think its just too practical and the "player" would probably be a joke.

i do think that more realistic time of 10-15 years everything will be solid state, and optical media will become the past


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> ok even though with the research on the internet about the CBHD it seems like this is all in theory IF it ever came over seas and its highly unlikely that it will, i really do not see the death of blu ray in 2-3 years i think you may be one of the few who do, yes in CHINA the CBHD is great, here its not even known of, and many other places, Studios are refusing yes go check, REFUSING to release movies on CBHD, They don't see it as a popular market, The thing is Blu Ray has way more possiblities especially coming out with a 500gb disk within 2-3 years time, and about people not risking death to pirate stuff for "almost the same price as a legit copy" thats funny because thats like saying you wouldn't do what ever you had to to put food on the plate, trust me people will pirate CBHD movies, and they will cost probaby 2-5 dollars vs 10-15 dollars.
> 
> Your talking for all of China when you say they won't do it, when its already being talked about on the internet, its a matter of time thats all.


It seems the same Studio's that supported HDDVD are throwing there support to Cbhd, no surprise there since Sony is a competing Studio, but yes with the aid of a CHINESE language pack I can find some stuff about the support of CBHD, but not much from western sites and I get that they are using a bout the same type of encryption as Blue-Ray so pirating probably wont be as bad... thre are still a few studio's locked with BR...Which was a bad move by any Studio...So at least some movies will never be anything else


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

It's kinda funny I had about the same argument a few years back with the "mini disc" and that remade DVD thing Sony did...I cant remember what it was called but it offered better sound, and the Video was much better, but it still failed.. I keep hearing that the format wars are over, but BR is still way behind DVD in sales, And  I'm sorry but a multi billion $ market was cut OFF, UHHH I don't know...If I was Sony I would Slash prices like a MOFO and I mean like BR's for $15 and players for $50 cause if they don't cement this market and soon The Latest Greatest will swallow there ass's in the next few years I guarantee it! FYI I have a very keen eye for this stuff, I may be laid off and Unemployed, But i seen that coming 5 years ago and on September,23.2008 came about my retirement tripled when most lost 70% You Know why, Cause the SLOB Know's what to buy, AND I'll say it again in this "world economy" you better be the $ the people want or they will find something else. example I owned Star bucks from 00-04 then I owned McDonald's boy i sure am enjoying McLatte, If i owned Sony right now I'd be selling and buying something else, say what you want but look at that company history with FAD support
EDIT: in 2004 all my retirement went to GE,McDonald's and Walmart all at an extreme discount yay me


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## Wile E (Aug 10, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It is not a marketing ploy.  Without the anti-scratch surface, just a few inserts/removals from a disk tray would render the disk unreadable.
> 
> http://www.pctechguide.com/38Blu-ray_Disks-BD.htm
> 
> ...


I stand corrected on the technicalities of the scratch layer, But the steady decline of prices shows that it's not as large a cost as first assumed. Not to mention, once the tooling is done, the production cost naturally declines over time anyway. While I'm wrong in the design of the media, I'm not wrong in it's relationship to price.

And HD DVD has no audio advantages over BD. Both can use the same formats. There is no "standard" audio for either format. That's left up to the studios on what to implement on their releases.



jmcslob said:


> It's kinda funny I had about the same argument a few years back with the "mini disc" and that remade DVD thing Sony did...I cant remember what it was called but it offered better sound, and the Video was much better, but it still failed.. I keep hearing that the format wars are over, but BR is still way behind DVD in sales, And  I'm sorry but a multi billion $ market was cut OFF, UHHH I don't know...If I was Sony I would Slash prices like a MOFO and I mean like BR's for $15 and players for $50 cause if they don't cement this market and soon The Latest Greatest will swallow there ass's in the next few years I guarantee it! FYI I have a very keen eye for this stuff, I may be laid off and Unemployed, But i seen that coming 5 years ago and on September,23.2008 came about my retirement tripled when most lost 70% You Know why, Cause the SLOB Know's what to buy, AND I'll say it again in this "world economy" you better be the $ the people want or they will find something else. example I owned Star bucks from 00-04 then I owned McDonald's boy i sure am enjoying McLatte, If i owned Sony right now I'd be selling and buying something else, say what you want but look at that company history with FAD support
> EDIT: in 2004 all my retirement went to GE,McDonald's and Walmart all at an extreme discount yay me


Mini disc never had a market. They were competing with CD, but CD was already long solidified. It was doomed before it even released.

As for the remade DVD, it wasn't Sony, and the pictures and sound weren't better. You are thinking of the Divx Disc players (no relaton to the divx codec on computers). They had a drm scheme that allowed you to buy a movie for dirt cheap, but you were limited in the amount of views. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_(Digital_Video_Express)


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 10, 2009)

> As for the remade DVD, it wasn't Sony, and the pictures and sound weren't better. You are thinking of the Divx Disc players (no relaton to the divx codec on computers). They had a drm scheme that allowed you to buy a movie for dirt cheap, but you were limited in the amount of views. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX_%2...deo_Express)


 No sony released some DVD's with a better sound track and picture just b4 BR that flopped miserably, and the DivX  related to pc, kind of, is what I use it with my fairly new upconvert DVD player, when i make DVD's it's easier to use cause anybody can get the codec to watch movies and i can watch them on dvd player with no lose in quality-but yeah the Divx DVD rental/buy thing failed


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## bpgt64 (Aug 10, 2009)

I don't think any physical format media will win.   As the pipes between use grow larger, just makes sense to not store data in a form that can be damaged....I guess.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

bpgt64 said:


> I don't think any physical format media will win.   As the pipes between use grow larger, just makes sense to not store data in a form that can be damaged....I guess.



Yes that makes sense but it also doesn't people like to own what they bought, when you "download" a movie or "download" a game, you can only use it and view it in that situation, what if you have some cool movies you want to take to a friends house? are you gong to bring your DVR or whatever rather than the Optical disk that contains it. i think this whole Download Service will only be good for select audience (people who don't have places to buy things close to them,people without friends/family,people who are unable to get to the store etc to buy the merchandise.

Once again Jmcslob, your talking based on theory, IF they dont slash prices, IF the companies don't sign up for CBHD, IF CBHD comes to the states, This is all hear say and at this very point DVD is the dominant market cause of price/satisfaction, but soon they will do exactly what DVD did to VHS, you get more for the blu ray version and thats why it cost 5-10 dollars more, Without the backing of all the other companies that didn't support HD DVD, in china only 3 companies will exist, as of right now only ONE company exist. which means you are completely limited to 100 movies? from Warner Brothers? yeah not very attractive to the media collector. That probably will NOT change, the companies that did sign to HD DVD basically took a big hit/loss with HD DVD. Making the same mistake probably will not happen.

So how tempting does that sound, yeah a CBHD player that is 80-100 dollars cheaper (for now) than a Blu Ray player in China, but oh man you get a whole 100 movies to choose from until 2010, which still deems the format iffy.

It won't come to the states, it won't survive, it will flop like HD DVD here, and most importantly TOSHIBA now makes blu ray players haha, the Co creator of HD DVD....

ALSO i'd like to add something great about Blu Ray

Almost EVERY new release blu ray movie comes with a "Digital Copy" to put on your PC/Zune/IPOD/mp4 player.
Which would cover the "digital" part of this whole thing. (by new release i mean not movies that were remade on blu ray from before blu ray came out)

hmm


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> The studio's have no choice in the matter, If they want the sales it has to be DVD or CBHD to be sold in China, They will not support BR, And yes I have a problem with the Chinese Govt owning this format but it's supposed to allow the Chinese access to HD movies without the "royalties" to Sony and a small $.50 fee to Govt Thus reducing the cost to something like $8 per movie, which would still give the Studio's their entire Royalties per film and deliver a major blow to BLUE-ray
> How do you think your business would do after being cut off from over a billion customers....It's a major blow anyway you look at it


Only a few million have the money for a TV let alone an HDTV + movie player.  Most of the Chinese population is third-world by Western standards.  The studios aren't going to go for it.  They'll say "Bluray or bust."





Wile E said:


> I stand corrected on the technicalities of the scratch layer, But the steady decline of prices shows that it's not as large a cost as first assumed. Not to mention, once the tooling is done, the production cost naturally declines over time anyway. While I'm wrong in the design of the media, I'm not wrong in it's relationship to price.
> 
> And HD DVD has no audio advantages over BD. Both can use the same formats. There is no "standard" audio for either format. That's left up to the studios on what to implement on their releases.


I never said the price was large.  I only said that BD-DVD will never be as cheap as HD-DVD/CBHD.  HD-DVD/CBHD are cheaper and simplier to manufacturer.  Sony shut that operation down fast because they knew, given enough time, Bluray could turn into the next Betamax (the expensive alternative no one wants to buy).


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

Best part about it is even with HD DVD, when it came out it was selling better than blu ray...at first. it was selling more movies than blu ray...at first...but because of the Limited library of movies/studios it flopped so WB signing exclusively to Blu ray and leaving HD DVD was the bullet to the head. It's the same thing with the CBHD all over again....Right now its doing great but when they realize noone else will sign the studio over to that format...well they'll bust. again...

thats what happens when you take a dead format (HD DVD) make it cheaper (CBHD) and than try to resell it...it's like packaging old meat and re dying it.. doesn't change the fact that its old


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

Sony leaked a story about Toshiba bribing Warner.  That was the beginning of the end of HD-DVD.


History repeats.  VHS killed Betamax being cheaper and released later.  DVD+R took all the market share from DVD-R being cheaper (not much) and released later.  HD-DVD would have killed Bluray being cheaper and released later.  On all the above, consumers got the same end--just by different means.  That being the case (borderline antitrust issues aside), cheaper always sells better.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

haha only 100 million, ...vs 400 million.. 

I agree cheaper always sells better, but thats why dvd is still being made as if it was invincible Blu ray is not cost effective right now, and it will be in the next few years but until then you have the alternitive to get the dvd version instead..2 years from now you can guarantee that it'll be the same price as DVD


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

Again, to price a Bluray disk (single layer) at the same price of DVD (single layer) they are always going to take a loss.  HD-DVD was much closer to the production costs of DVD (99% of the technology was in the laser, not the medium).


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## v12dock (Aug 11, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8192840.stm

Found that interesting


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## mudkip (Aug 11, 2009)

yep HD-DVD should've win.. oh well:shadedshu


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Again, to price a Bluray disk (single layer) at the same price of DVD (single layer) they are always going to take a loss.  HD-DVD was much closer to the production costs of DVD (99% of the technology was in the laser, not the medium).




yes right now, they would take a loss (when has that stopped sony from pushing stuff haha remember ps3 cost to manufacture vs price at launch?) when more companies make blu ray disk, they will be cheaper to manufacture, hell a good blu ray player cost 90 dollars at best buy. a month ago you couldn't find one under 250.

it's just time technology gets cheaper with time.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

mudkip said:


> yep HD-DVD should've win.. oh well:shadedshu



i know the feeling i had the HD DVD player for the 360....and than i bought a ps3 when that flopped. ha


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> yes right now, they would take a loss (when has that stopped sony from pushing stuff haha remember ps3 cost to manufacture vs price at launch?) when more companies make blu ray disk, they will be cheaper to manufacture, hell a good blu ray player cost 90 dollars at best buy. a month ago you couldn't find one under 250.
> 
> it's just time technology gets cheaper with time.


Technology does not get cheaper with time.  That really only applies to semiconductors and the nature of the silicon wafer.  Most products have gotten cheaper because there is only demand for cheap.  If you look at technology in fields where there is demand for quality, they're getting more and more expensive.  Compare the F-15 to the F-22, and the B-1B to the B-2, for example.  Technology has caused an exponential increase in price but also capability.

Where technology can get cheaper is in the players themselves.  The laser carriage isn't likely to change much but the circuitry that decodes the single can and will (again, wafer based).  The medium changes very little and what changes it does under go (like adding more layers) are insanely expensive.  DVD+R DL disks are still going for about $2 a piece for very slow burn speeds.


I wish technology got cheaper.  Most technologies only get cheaper as they recoup development costs).  We'd all be driving at 200 MPH and flying hypersonic by now.  Damn entropy and Newton's second law of motion.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

so than explain how dvd went from 40 dollars a movie to 19.99 and lower? 

I'm pretty sure the more companies that manufacture a product means they find ways to get it cheaper to compete?


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## Wile E (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Technology does not get cheaper with time.  That really only applies to semiconductors and the nature of the silicon wafer.  Most products have gotten cheaper because there is only demand for cheap.  If you look at technology in fields where there is demand for quality, they're getting more and more expensive.  Compare the F-15 to the F-22, and the B-1B to the B-2, for example.  Technology has caused an exponential increase in price but also capability.
> 
> Where technology can get cheaper is in the players themselves.  The laser carriage isn't likely to change much but the circuitry that decodes the single can and will (again, wafer based).  The medium changes very little and what changes it does under go (like adding more layers) are insanely expensive.  DVD+R DL disks are still going for about $2 a peice for very slow burn speeds.
> 
> ...


He means technology gets cheaper when looking in the same generation. Not as things upgrade. He's saying that DVDs got cheaper over time, thus, so will BD. He's not saying the successor to these techs will be cheaper. You can get DL dvds for around $1.30/piece now. Even the manufacture of the media itself has become cheaper over time, due to refinements.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

The only reason it is getting cheaper (at a rapid pace) is to recoup developement costs (this happens with all new technologies with few exceptions).  Once one supplier has recouped their developement costs, they start lowering their prices to get higher volumes at a lower per-unit profit (at the bottomline they make the same or a little more).  Other suppliers must follow suit in order to not be priced out of market.  Multiple suppliers is what keeps it cheap.


As with all formats, DVD DL disks have been coming down in price because there are more competitors.  It used to be pretty much just Verbatim and RiDATA.  Now you got Maxwell, Memorex, and TDK.


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## Wile E (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The only reason it is getting cheaper (at a rapid pace) is to recoup developement costs (this happens with all new technologies with few exceptions).  Once one supplier has recouped their developement costs, they start lowering their prices to get higher volumes at a lower per-unit profit (at the bottomline they make the same or a little more).  Other suppliers must follow suit in order to not be priced out of market.  Multiple suppliers is what keeps it cheap.
> 
> 
> As with all formats, DVD DL disks have been coming down in price because there are more competitors.  It used to be pretty much just Verbatim and RiDATA.  Now you got Maxwell, Memorex, and TDK.



Of course market always determines the final price consumers will bear, but costs to manufacture decrease over time as well, allowing manufacturers to decrease price along the way, or increase profit margins. A lowering of manufacturing costs doesn't always lead to a drop in price, no, but it allows the potential. The market determines the rest.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

I got some prices for you...



Date|Speed|Quantity|Price|Price/Unit
11/26/2006|6.0x|10|18.99|1.899
11/12/2007|2.4x|20|39.98|1.999
11/4/2008|2.4x|20|25.99|1.2995I don't remember which ones had rebates and which were on sale. All are Verbatim DVD+R DL disks ordered from Newegg.

The price on the most recent one hasn't changed in 3/4 a year:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817130008


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## Wile E (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I got some prices for you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That comes from the market, not the cost of manufacture. Do you honestly believe the DL prices stay high because they can't make them cheaper?


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

You tell me.  How can you make a peice of plastic cheaper when the dimensions don't change?  Find a cheaper supplier for the plastic, that's about it.


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## Wile E (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You tell me.  How can you make a peice of plastic cheaper when the dimensions don't change?  Find a cheaper supplier for the plastic, that's about it.



No. You also get refinements in the process of building the discs thru equipment updates, employing training, and a myriad of other ways. My mother has been in the plastic molding business for 20yrs now, and they always look for ways to make the process cheaper without sacrificing quality.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

Wile E said:


> No. You also get refinements in the process of building the discs thru equipment updates, employing training, and a myriad of other ways. My mother has been in the plastic molding business for 20yrs now, and they always look for ways to make the process cheaper without sacrificing quality.


The general process of making a disk has changed little since CDs were originally introduced (which the manufacturing process is quite similar to old vinyls...).  CDs, DVDs, Bluray, etc. all involve stamping plastic from a master and then coating it...

1) label
2) aluminium (reflects light)
3) substrate (data from master)
4) cover (protect the data)

The equipment to do this process has changed very little.  What does change is repetition--the substrate layer may be done multiple times with spacer layers in between for multi-layered disks.  Multi-layered disks are always substantially more expensive because demand isn't very high and every machine producing disks spends more time on a single product.


Again, not to belittle the industry but the only human involvement in the process is changing out stamps, making sure it has sufficient supply of the materials involved, and taking disks off spools as they are completed.  The process is almost entirely automated (at newer facilities, it may be 100% automated) with humans only in QA, maintaining, and unloading trucks.


Yeah, every industry always wants to find ways to do things cheaper/better.  When dealing with optics and mostly automated systems, there is little room for improvement except using more robust machines that can operate faster.


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## Wile E (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The general process of making a disk has changed little since CDs were originally introduced (which the manufacturing process is quite similar to old vinyls...).  CDs, DVDs, Bluray, etc. all involve stamping plastic from a master and then coating it...
> 
> 1) label
> 2) aluminium (reflects light)
> ...


Yet, despite the relative lack of change, the process has gotten cheaper. Now, I do agree that you will hit a point of diminishing returns, and bottom out, such as CD or DVD, but I do not believe BD has gotten there. I also do not believe the retail cost of DL DVD reflects it's cost of manufacture. I believe it is the low demand that keeps the price high.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't believe BD-DVD has gotten there either but I do believe it is getting close.  I would estimate that a BD-DVD could sell for around $1 each and turn a profit assuming the developement costs are already covered.  Regular DVDs are around $0.20, to put things in perspective.

DL DVD should theoretically cost about $0.30 to $0.40 each to turn a profit.  I agree that low demand and few manufacturers are keeping that price high.


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## Wile E (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I don't believe BD-DVD has gotten there either but I do believe it is getting close.  I would estimate that a BD-DVD could sell for around $1 each and turn a profit assuming the developement costs are already covered.  Regular DVDs are around $0.20, to put things in perspective.
> 
> DL DVD should theoretically cost about $0.30 to $0.40 each to manufacturer.  I agree that low demand and few manufacturers are keeping that price high.



Ahhh, so we actually agree, and are debating things for no good reason? lol.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

So im confused is this debate over? i know Jmcslob started the thread but is this a way to have settled it?

if so cool,


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 11, 2009)

As stated previously, I doubt CBHD will gain any traction outside of China.  In China, only Chinese studios will use it (whether or not those studios reach out to Western publishers remains to be seen).

I could see some studios licensing a video to be published by the Chinese government with royalties but I highly doubt they themselves would ever directly touch CBHD.


That debate was a tangent.


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 11, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> So im confused is this debate over? i know Jmcslob started the thread but is this a way to have settled it?
> 
> if so cool,



All I know is I don't like your avatar and as long as it stands I shall argue with you.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> All I know is I don't like your avatar and as long as it stands I shall argue with you.



haha why not?


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 11, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> As stated previously, I doubt CBHD will gain any traction outside of China.  In China, only Chinese studios will use it (whether or not those studios reach out to Western publishers remains to be seen).
> 
> I could see some studios licensing a video to be published by the Chinese government with royalties but I highly doubt they themselves would ever directly touch CBHD.
> 
> ...


Some western studios have given support for it in CHINA only, but yeah it will never be here in the U.S. other than on EBAY, but as i said it's still a blow for BR loosing CHINA and all and i still think BR will be replaced in 2-3 years maybe not by optical most likely by ssd tech


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 11, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> All I know is I don't like your avatar and as long as it stands I shall argue with you.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 11, 2009)

I concede CBHD will not end BR
but i still think BR is ending in 2-3 years so laugh at me then if it does not


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

i'm still confused why you don't like it..


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> I concede CBHD will not end BR
> but i still think BR is ending in 2-3 years so laugh at me then if it does not



Okay than so what format will be the "out" 2-3 years from now here that is better than blu ray?
Solid State wont be out for a while because of security reasons


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 11, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> Okay than so what format will be the "out" 2-3 years from now here that is better than blu ray?
> Solid State wont be out for a while because of security reasons


Remember Br put a hurtin on Microsoft
Microsoft is putting lots of money towards "Digital copy" type stuff and so is DISH Network, I think the next step is going to be DOWNLOADING it to a Secure Addressable device, one that would likely have security measures like QAM has. When you rent a hd movie off the xbox you download it and then watch it, you have 24 hrs, which is set to be 24 hrs but the movies is still there after 24 hrs you just need the appropriate key to watch it, all they have to do is give you the key, which would only work for that copy on that machine, i know it's not like a hard copy you can take with you wherever you go but maybe it is, you would just take your Hard drive with and log into your account to watch elsewhere right


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 11, 2009)

Hm, that doesn't work this way, i have rented movies on one of my 360's and than took the hard drive to the other and it wouldn't play cause the movie was bound to that hardware (a saftey percaution im sure). i do agree download will be great for people who want to rent a movie and watch it etc. i do not think as a collector is concerned that in the next 2-3 years we will not see download only/ssd.  In forms of downloading content/games/renting movies/streaming its a great solution (remember a lot of places do not have the internet like we do and there connections are very limited)

I do the the NEXT format will be some form of solid state media, i just don't think thats going to happen for at leat 5-10 years as a means to an end so to speak.


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> Hm, that doesn't work this way, i have rented movies on one of my 360's and than took the hard drive to the other and it wouldn't play cause the movie was bound to that hardware (a saftey percaution im sure). i do agree download will be great for people who want to rent a movie and watch it etc. i do not think as a collector is concerned that in the next 2-3 years we will not see download only/ssd.  In forms of downloading content/games/renting movies/streaming its a great solution (remember a lot of places do not have the internet like we do and there connections are very limited)
> 
> I do the the NEXT format will be some form of solid state media, i just don't think thats going to happen for at leat 5-10 years as a means to an end so to speak.



I agree 100%.

The internet infrastructure will not allow a full transition to downloads. And remember, a typical BD movie is over 20GB. People have bandwidth caps. Not to mention, they would have to completely download the movie for hours before watching it, as most connections aren't fast enough to stream a file that size. You typical Cable or dish HD content is no where near the quality of BD, so there's no way they're taking over either.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> Hm, that doesn't work this way, i have rented movies on one of my 360's and than took the hard drive to the other and it wouldn't play cause the movie was bound to that hardware (a saftey percaution im sure). i do agree download will be great for people who want to rent a movie and watch it etc. i do not think as a collector is concerned that in the next 2-3 years we will not see download only/ssd.  In forms of downloading content/games/renting movies/streaming its a great solution (remember a lot of places do not have the internet like we do and there connections are very limited)
> 
> I do the the NEXT format will be some form of solid state media, i just don't think thats going to happen for at leat 5-10 years as a means to an end so to speak.


AHHH I hear what you are saying and it makes a lot sense but so much money is going that way...uh.. You are probably right and so am I methinks
How about this in 2 -3 years BR is still big But SSD stuff will be rooted and available...


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> The internet infrastructure will not allow a full transition to downloads. And remember, a typical BD movie is over 20GB. People have bandwidth caps. Not to mention, they would have to completely download the movie for hours before watching it, as most connections aren't fast enough to stream a file that size. You typical Cable or dish HD content is no where near the quality of BD, so there's no way they're taking over either.


wow I guess i take for granted i can download 20 gigs in an hour or 2 but that's because not that many other people can i guess, as for Dish they have it ready now bandwidth that is it's just really expensive now like $350 a month, but that's still very new
Wile E I bet back in 2006 you would have told me i was nuts if I would have said there will be a CPU with the I7 975 specs out in 2009


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

yea, we get what your saying..but still even if they "develope" the technology to give everyone the ablity to download at those speeds for a afforadble competitive price, it still wont happen for at LEAST 5-10 years you have to look at it perspectively. You are one person downloading that fast (assuming your using torrents) which has seeders/leechers, The more seeders and less leechers your Download speed depletes fast. Until they come out with a great type of bandwith and cheap enough, it's just a dream 

i really doubt you download 20gb of information in one hour or even 2...


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> wow I guess i take for granted i can download 20 gigs in an hour or 2 but that's because not that many other people can i guess, as for Dish they have it ready now bandwidth that is it's just really expensive now like $350 a month, but that's still very new
> Wile E I bet back in 2006 you would have told me i was nuts if I would have said there will be a CPU with the I7 975 specs out in 2009


Yeah, I would have believed that cpus progressed this far, as cpu technology progresses faster than either our media formats, or our internet infrastructure. And 20GB an hour? That's a 45Mb connection. That's not a connection speed most people can afford (hell, it's not even an option in my area). I pay $50+ taxes and fees for an 6Mb connection. The best I can pull down in an hour is 2.6GB.

And they charge $350/month for those high bandwidth connections, so not everyone will get them, because their system can't handle all that bandwidth at once.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

So realistically even if this were possible....350 a month for a connetion able to download a movie in an hour...and lets say the movies are 15.99 (to own) 

vs lets say even 150 dollar blu ray player and 7 blu ray movies (at 30 dollars a piece) for 360
and every month after that 12 movies a month (still at 30 even though theres alot cheaper than that) for 12 months, thats 144 movies the first year..(at 30 dollars a movie)
which mean realistically over 200 movies. in THE FIRST YEAR every year after that it would be more movies so about 210 movies a year...after the first. NOW THATS JUST THE COST of your "45mb connection"....

so just by mathmatics alone to have a connection that powerful ...what are the rewards again?

i thought this was about a "cheaper solution"

by the looks of it it would cost a butload more money for a good downloading service rather than actually owning a hard copy.


Just to clarify 

Blu ray movie at 30 dollars > 12 movies a month = 360 dollars a month..
45mb connection >350 dollars a month> price to own DL movies 15.99 > total cost a month for 12 movies > $542.00

I still see the advantage going to blu ray you get hard copies of movies and it cost $182 less.
Best part of not having the connection is that you dont have to pay a monthy fee for your movies...
hm


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 12, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> i'm still confused why you don't like it..



I think its your hair. If I were in school with you I would have to f@#k with you about your hair.


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I think its your hair. If I were in school with you I would have to f@#k with you about your hair.



My daughter wears her hair like that.


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## phanbuey (Aug 12, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> So realistically even if this were possible....350 a month for a connetion able to download a movie in an hour...and lets say the movies are 15.99 (to own)
> 
> vs lets say even 150 dollar blu ray player and 7 blu ray movies (at 30 dollars a piece) for 360
> and every month after that 12 movies a month (still at 30 even though theres alot cheaper than that) for 12 months, thats 144 movies the first year..(at 30 dollars a movie)
> ...



Yes... all of that is correct... except that on-line streaming will never end a physical medium in the first place...  

For example - we can stream music for free from the internet... but most people prefer to buy mp3's and store them on some local medium, because requiring a connection to obtain/watch a movie or listen to music is just not practical.

What will end Bluray is the cost and impracticality of it.  Sony has done this with Betamax and Minidisc (lol). IMO Bluray is akin to LaserDisc... AMAZING quality and tech for its time, but it will never take off.  

DVD will reign supreme until some company (Apple) will see what is going on with the market and come up with a solution that will do visual media what the iPod did to music.  It's only a matter of time.  Sony has 0 foresight... they have great engineers, but no foresight.  At this point in time, a better DVD is just not the answer, and the shellacking that bluray discs are taking in sales is foreshadowing of that.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Ok here i go again
I bought BSG RAZOR HD from xbox live I now own it.......
I took my xbox Hard drive over to my friend ADAMS house he has BSG RAZOR on BR with a 52" sharp aquas 
WE put my xbox hd on his xbox I logged on to my account, OK we had to redownload the movie but it didn't really redownload as it was done in less than 15 min we were able to watch the movie, I also had to do this when i got home(yes that's annoying) anyways....
we watch the first half on the xbox and the second half on BR and guess what 
next to not having 7.1 surround there was no difference PERIOD 
same great picture, and i downloaded it at that, and it's not like you have to wait forever, it took half of a "cigarette" that I rolled myself and voila! ready to watch


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> Yeah, I would have believed that cpus progressed this far, as cpu technology progresses faster than either our media formats, or our internet infrastructure. And 20GB an hour? That's a 45Mb connection. That's not a connection speed most people can afford (hell, it's not even an option in my area). I pay $50+ taxes and fees for an 6Mb connection. The best I can pull down in an hour is 2.6GB.
> 
> And they charge $350/month for those high bandwidth connections, so not everyone will get them, because their system can't handle all that bandwidth at once.


Really I only live like 62 miles away, I might have been a little off but my connection is now 2mb/s up and 30mb/s down for $70 a month- *That just changed* it was 1.5 up and 20 down (reality 930kb/s up 20mb/s down now it's more like 1.5mb/s up and 25mb/s down)


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> Ok here i go again
> I bought BSG RAZOR HD from xbox live I now own it.......
> I took my xbox Hard drive over to my friend ADAMS house he has BSG RAZOR on BR with a 52" sharp aquas
> WE put my xbox hd on his xbox I logged on to my account, OK we had to redownload the movie but it didn't really redownload as it was done in less than 15 min we were able to watch the movie, I also had to do this when i got home(yes that's annoying) anyways....
> ...



Yes, there most certainly is a difference in quality between Xbox HD an BD. I have also compared directly. There is a quality difference in every (legal) downloadable HD content provider, period. No if, ands or buts. You either compared on a crappy TV, or were too far away, or just don't have a knack for seeing a difference.

Many people buy mp3's online, and most places have them at a bitrate between 128 and 192k. Many people don't mind, despite that, the difference between that and CD is huge. It's the same principle with online HD. It's compressed to hell and back, and the difference is there, whether it bothers you or not.


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## phanbuey (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> Yes, there most certainly is a difference in quality between Xbox HD an BD. I have also compared directly. There is a quality difference in every (legal) downloadable HD content provider, period. No if, ands or buts. You either compared on a crappy TV, or were too far away, or just don't have a knack for seeing a difference.
> 
> Many people buy mp3's online, and most places have them at a bitrate between 128 and 192k. Many people don't mind, despite that, the difference between that and CD is huge. It's the same principle with online HD. It's compressed to hell and back, and the difference is there, whether it bothers you or not.



so true... +1


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

phanbuey said:


> Yes... all of that is correct... except that on-line streaming will never end a physical medium in the first place...
> 
> For example - we can stream music for free from the internet... but most people prefer to buy mp3's and store them on some local medium, because requiring a connection to obtain/watch a movie or listen to music is just not practical.
> 
> ...



And mp3 downloads still haven't killed CDs as a physical medium either. No, I don't think anything is gonna knock BD out of the market until either the internet infrastructure is upgraded, and caps are a thing of the past, or the next best physical medium hits (I'm hoping flash based, personally). There will always be a market for physical mediums of any type of entertainment.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> Yes, there most certainly is a difference in quality between Xbox HD an BD. I have also compared directly. There is a quality difference in every (legal) downloadable HD content provider, period. No if, ands or buts. You either compared on a crappy TV, or were too far away, or just don't have a knack for seeing a difference.
> 
> Many people buy mp3's online, and most places have them at a bitrate between 128 and 192k. Many people don't mind, despite that, the difference between that and CD is huge. It's the same principle with online HD. It's compressed to hell and back, and the difference is there, whether it bothers you or not.


Honestly you have something there but backwards That was a hell of a good tv, I have a panasonic Viera  and that movie don't look that good on my tv, my next tv's gonna be a sharp aquas, and you have another point, distance you need to be within 3' of a 52" Tv to see the difference, so like i said 2-3 years


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> And mp3 downloads still haven't killed CDs as a physical medium either. No, I don't think anything is gonna knock BD out of the market until either the internet infrastructure is upgraded, and caps are a thing of the past, or the next best physical medium hits (I'm hoping flash based, personally). There will always be a market for physical mediums of any type of entertainment.


I still don't get the internet infrastructure thing, we are normally last to have anything upgraded around here, but i looked and your right 20 miles east of me only has 5mb/s down at best REALLY...... I guess I live near the main east coast fiber optic line, it runs to the Vienna AIR force Base (3miles away) and the Reveanna Army base(5 miles away) and it Literally runs straight thru Warren,OH (2 miles away)


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 12, 2009)

I think there is actually now two markets for films: HD and SD.  HD will move to Bluray for the time being.  SD will stay on DVD and there will be a small trickle moving to Internet-based movies. By 2012, I'll estimate that, for movies, market share will be around...
20% HD Bluray
50% SD DVD
30% SD Internet

By 2016
30% HD ?
20% SD DVD
50% SD Internet


Internet will eventually become the predominent movie rental platform.  The quality of Internet movie rentals will increase with time.  The only reason why it isn't happening a lot today is because few homes have an HTPC which can stream video from the Internet to a TV for many to view.


The only way HD can beat SD for the lionshare of people is if HD is cheaper and more convient than SD.


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## Triprift (Aug 12, 2009)

And the fact we all need 100 mbit to be able to stream hd smoothly were meant to be getting it in a few years time will be nice.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 12, 2009)

I also doubt that SSD or SD will replace Bluray for HD video.  Both have a fixed manufacturering cost but stamping out disks will almost always be cheaper than a silicon wafer for comparative capacity.  Again, this is because the technology of disks are mostly in the drive that reads them while memory chips, the technology is in the device you are trying to make cheap.  You'll be paying less for a player and more for the movies/content.  Moreover, the failure rate for portable memory chips is much higher than disks.  Memory has to come a very long ways before studios will consider it.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

I agree with Ford, SSD is not reliable enough/cost effective.

One big flaw also is security just to implement a type of super encryption so you can't rip the data off and sell "bootleg" flash card of the movie would cost a buttload

but like i said blu ray is going to be in the run for at least another 5-10 years considering they now have every major studio signed to them and dropping in price it looks clear that they'll stay. and also a 91 percent increase in sales this past quarter is more promise. and with the promise of up to a 500gb Blu Ray disk it could actually go on longer. 

And jmcslob, there is no way that the 360 and BR look the same, 360 is compressed as hell. i watch movies on both regularly and the BR is a lot better (about 15gb's better). Point of this thread was CBHD would take over Blu Ray, that is wrong

So your next point was Digital Download will take over blu ray in 2-3 years, and thats also wrong.
Proving without a super fast connection of 350 dollars a month, you'd still be spending less on blu ray media (hard copies, than monthly service and downloads).  

And than your 3rd point was SSD,between cost, security and reliability that wont happen and if it does not for a while (5-10 years)...which was also wrong.

do you really hate BR that much that your looking for every way to say something will take it over in the next 2-3 years.

Cause well, i am pretty sure your wrong.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 12, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> ...with the promise of up to a 500gb Blu Ray disk it could actually go on longer.


2 CDs are cheaper than 1 DVD
1 DVD DL is cheaper than 2 DVDs

20 layer disks are eff'in expensive and always will be.  If we go on the assumption that the cheapest a BD-DVD will ever get is $1 to manufacturer and of a cost about and additional $0.80 per layer, those disks will never cost less than $16.20 to manufacture.  That is a *lot* of money just spent on content delivery.

Just like DVD, once dual layer isn't enough, a new technology will come in to replace it with cheaper medium costs for equal or better capacity.  Most likely, that technology will involve lasers operating in the ultra-violet range.

I highly doubt a 500 GB Bluray disk will ever be brought to market.  It's just TDK tooting their horn.  I would be surprised if anything higher than quad-layer were, in fact.




joinmeindeath417 said:


> So your next point was Digital Download will take over blu ray in 2-3 years, and thats also wrong.


Digital downloads already trump Bluray, DVD, and maybe even OTA viewership.  Look at YouTube and all the other video sites online.

Bluray only caters to one market: HD video.  Internet video caters to all (albeit HD video clips are often short).


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## vbx (Aug 12, 2009)

interesting find, Intel and Tosh are on the steering committee of CBHD.

List of the Steering Committee Members

* Jiangsu Shinco Electronics Group Co., Ltd.
* TCL Multimedia Technology Holding Ltd.
* China Record Corporation
* Warner Home Video
* China Film Crest Digital Media Co., Ltd.
* China Audio & Video Publishing House
* Audio Video Coding Standard Working Group of China
* Tsinghua Optical Memory National Engineering Research Center
* China Electronics Technology Group Corporation No.3 Research Institute
* ?Mosys Inc.
* ?Shanghai United Optical Disc Co., Ltd.
* Industrial Technology Research Institute
* MediaTek Inc. China
* NEC Electronics Corporation
* Memory-tech Corporation
* Intel Corporation
* Microsoft Corporation
* Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd. Electronic Device Company
* Thomson Corporation
* Toshiba Corporation
* Innvo-Asia Electronics Technology Shenzhen Co. Ltd.
* Zhenjiang Jiangkui Group
* Qianfeng Digital Technology (Dongguan) Co., Ltd.



Here are the CBD HD specs www.chinahda.org.cn/en/why-cbhd.html

CBD is an improvement over HD-DVD.

Item CBHD
Laser blue-violet laser
SL/DL capacity 15/30GB
Resolution (max.) 1920×1080 (1080P)
Modulation 4-6 modulation
Video compression AVS */H.264/VC-1/ MPEG-2
Audio compression AVS*/DRA*/ Dolby /DTS
Navigation CETC navi.
Content protection AACS, DKAA


Item BD
Laser blue-violet laser
SL/DL capacity 25/50GB
Resolution (max.) 1920×1080 (1080P)
Modulation BD modulation
Video compression H.264/VC-1/MPEG-2
Audio compression Dolby /DTS
Navigation BD navi.
Content protection AACS


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> 2 CDs are cheaper than 1 DVD
> 1 DVD DL is cheaper than 2 DVDs
> 
> 20 layer disks are eff'in expensive and always will be.  If we go on the assumption that the cheapest a BD-DVD will ever get is $1 to manufacturer and of a cost about and additional $0.80 per layer, those disks will never cost less than $16.20 to manufacture.  That is a *lot* of money just spent on content delivery.
> ...



I don't think that it will "never" be just like dual layer DVD's there still uncommon for people to just use when cd/dvd is fine for there needs. so im sure it'll come out just not be cheap or effective. it was just a statement saying there looking to bulk up the storage of the media.

i don't think they'll ever need 500gb of data for a movie. ahha 

and i don't think they would spend all that moeny on R&D to toot there horn, thats pretty dumb lol, im sure there will be a market for it just not for us.



> Digital downloads already trump Bluray, DVD, and maybe even OTA viewership.  Look at YouTube and all the other video sites online.
> 
> Bluray only caters to one market: HD video.  Internet video caters to all (albeit HD video clips are often short).



Yea, viewing not owning, i do not think people are going to just start owning things off the internet, there are a lot of people in this world who like owning something physical not something that cant be taken somewhere or stored on its own media etc. like i said people use netflix and download services to rent movies but owning is a different story


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## phanbuey (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> And mp3 downloads still haven't killed CDs as a physical medium either. No, I don't think anything is gonna knock BD out of the market until either the internet infrastructure is upgraded, and caps are a thing of the past, or the next best physical medium hits (I'm hoping flash based, personally). There will always be a market for physical mediums of any type of entertainment.



Im saying that the next form will be flash based as well... And yeah while MP3's haven't killed CD sales _yet_, they are definitely on the way.  Give CD's another few years and they will be far behind MP3's sales.

BD is not going to pick up unless prices drop, and fast.

@joinmeindeath:  Great army of darkness quote BTW... just noticed that.


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## vbx (Aug 12, 2009)

I think video game consoles should make the jump from CD's to Flash memory.  No more need for loading time and extra memory cards to save games.   

SSD format movies and music is a stretch.  Flash memory seems more plausible for media. 

I'm guessing for the future. car music players will be mp3 players and you can download music into the car players.   this will reduce trash and will be "greener". This is already available for the New Infinti cars.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

phanbuey said:


> Im saying that the next form will be flash based as well... And yeah while MP3's haven't killed CD sales _yet_, they are definitely on the way.  Give CD's another few years and they will be far behind MP3's sales.
> 
> BD is not going to pick up unless prices drop, and fast.
> 
> @joinmeindeath:  Great army of darkness quote BTW... just noticed that.



Yea and its dropping fast, a month ago blu ray players were 250, now they can be found for 90 dollars, and movies are going from 30 to 25 to 20 now. it'll drop it has to at this point

yea one of my favorite movies


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Look at it like this.....
What do most KIDS want....
They want something they can take with them in a pocket, like a phone
they dont care if it's full 1080p
Kids 13-17 buy more movies than anyone else...So what are they gravitating towards...It's not BR
My daughter wants movies with Digital copy so she can put it on her phone or her Zune, she never actually watch's the dvd.....
Now lets go to the next biggest group of Movie Buyers 18-23
They can't afford 46" 1080p LCD's yet, but I bet they are more likely to own a netbook or labtop and a Zune or Iphone etc...
Next largest group 30+.....
Well your gettin old and your eyesight's not improving 
Look around the web for studies of people 30+ that pit 720p against 1080p with the "COMMON" size large TV's 37"-46" It's hard to see the difference at 10' (the average distance between the tv and the viewer) so what do you get...
Well not much...
Just looks like a very divided Market....
Another thing to consider is Financial means....
I'm willing to bet the more secure financially you are the more likely you have BR, so things are not looking so brite for BR as more and more people have less money... My money says, people will go for what's good enough...for the money they have....but hey, if the trend continues with BR prices they may just pull ahead...But that would require Sony to reduce their ROYALTIES by at least 70%-that would drop a BR player at $90 to $73 and a Movie from $25 to $20....NOT LIKELY....Look at SONY's history it's more likely they'll drop BR before giving up their cash cow


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

wow did you really waste all your time saying that..

do yourself a favor...go to bestbuy.com..
look at blu ray movies...
sort price low to high.

HOLY SHIT LOOK THERE ARE MOVIES UNDER 20 DOLLARS!! 

and blu ray players are going down in price....as the movies

your arguments aren't valid at all it's funny im 23...and i have a 46" 1080p tv...and a laptop...and a zune...ps3,360,over 80 360 games, 30 ps3 games, about 35 BR movies, and over 75 DVDs....
and im only 23?... what was this point?

hahahha "well your getting old and your eyesight's not improving"
is this really an argument... MOST adults buy things based on more than just there vision, some like bragging rights and some like to just have it cause its bigger.

and kid's 13-17 usually have mom and dad just buy them whatever they want? reguardless if its good enough...


Once again, all your doing is beating a dead horse in all your replies there completely pointless and have nothing to do with this debate.

JUST to clarify there is over 450 Blu Ray movies on best buy's site alone that are under 20 dollars..

Do you like being proven wrong? honestly ...just stop


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> Look at it like this.....
> What do most KIDS want....
> They want something they can take with them in a pocket, like a phone
> they dont care if it's full 1080p
> ...


And I still say you are wrong. BD is currently GAINING market share, not losing it. No, BD won't be around forever, and that I agree on, but it will be around longer than 2 or 3 years. Full digital downloads cannot, and will never fully replace physical media. Many people want something tangible for their money. As long as the market for it exists, BD will be around. It may not be the #1, but it will still be there for years to come.

And I agree with FordGT that the market will stay split into SD and HD. People that don't notice the difference between an upscaled DVD quality movie and a true 1080p movie, aren't going to spend extra money on the HD format. 

People such as myself, that easily see the difference, even between downloaded HD and BD, will spend the extra few dollars for a BD. I have no problems paying the extra $5 per disc for the quality of a BD over a DVD on new releases.

And btw, I'm 32, have a 1080p 46" Samsung that sits 12ft away. I even see the differences between downloaded and BD. It replaced a 46" 720p model, and the difference between the 2 sets on the same source is night and day. Everyone in my house saw the difference immediately.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> And btw, I'm 32, have a 1080p 46" Samsung that sits 12ft away. I even see the differences between downloaded and BD. It replaced a 46" 720p model, and the difference between the 2 sets on the same source is night and day. Everyone in my house saw the difference immediately.



Thats impossible your over 30 years old you can't see the difference!


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 12, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> I don't think that it will "never" be just like dual layer DVD's there still uncommon for people...


Most DVD movies are DL and so are a lot of the A-list games (e.g. GTA IV is a DVD DL and a DVD).




joinmeindeath417 said:


> ...and i don't think they would spend all that moeny on R&D to toot there horn...


It doesn't cost very much to create such a disk--just have to make the layers thinner.  Besides, businesses do it all the time in order to influence press cycles.  It worked there too: look how often you mentioned it (four times) in this thread alone.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 12, 2009)

yes movies and games use DL disk but a customer doesn't go into staples commonly looking for specific DL disk to write data to they stick with CD/DVD or now the ever so popular flash stick which is my favorite.

like i said i only mention it  cause its a proof of concept idea, No, we will never see them come out mainstream, but can they exist sure.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 12, 2009)

DVD proved capability of having at least four layers...


Does it matter?  Nope, Bluray/HDDVD is where to go if 8.5 GiB isn't enough.  History repeats.


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## vbx (Aug 12, 2009)

looking at the side by side screenshots comparison of DVD Blu-Ray, I really don't see that much of a difference.  Not enough that it would make me want to jump to Blu-Rays from DVD's.

Sure there is a slight advantage in details. But its not like the jump from VHS to DVD. Or Super Nintento to Xbox.

But when ur actually watching the movie, ur not going to notice the detail differences. 

Screenshots

Batman - Edición Especial DVD vs. Batman Blu-ray
http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=953

2001: Una Odisea del Espacio - E.E. (DVD) vs. (Blu-ray)
http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=792

300 DVD vs. 300 Blu-ray
http://www.zonadvd.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=749


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

vbx said:


> looking at the side by side screenshots comparison of DVD Blu-Ray, I really don't see that much of a difference.  Not enough that it would make me want to jump to Blu-Rays from DVD's.
> 
> Sure there is a slight advantage in details. But its not like the jump from VHS to DVD. Or Super Nintento to Xbox.
> 
> ...


They are using jpegs. You can't use jpegs to compare. jpegs compress the image. You need to use a lossless format like png. And look how far the BD images are shrunk down in size. You lose detail when shrinking the size.

Those comparisons aren't valid. The difference between 1080p and DVD is like VHS and DVD. Problem is, most still have 720p TVs, where the difference is less noticeable.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

wow yeah I found 2 movies available at ANY BEST BUY within 50 MILES for less than 29.99 closest BEST BUY that carries those less than that are in CLEVELAND 51 miles away.....Good point though I could get them via usps for 14.99 for movies that are available on netflix on demand wow  ooooooooooooo yeah ok
SORRY most people don't live near a big city where that is available, but most people in those areas have cable or sat with hd on demand
EDIT: what's sad is the only person who has me convinced towards BR isn't even in this discussion, WHICH is my friend ADAM and here is his point...
it's only $1 more with netflix........
AND as I said b4 I'm gonna buy a BR player with a 500gb hd and DLNA for my bedroom,but only because DISH NETWORK supports it, that and because MOXI's are $700


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## vbx (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> They are using jpegs. You can't use jpegs to compare. jpegs compress the image. You need to use a lossless format like png. And look how far the BD images are shrunk down in size. You lose detail when shrinking the size.
> 
> Those comparisons aren't valid. The difference between 1080p and DVD is like VHS and DVD. Problem is, most still have 720p TVs, where the difference is less noticeable.



If thats the case, then the difference between Blu-Ray and CBHD is price.  Everything else looks identical .


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> wow yeah I found 2 movies available at ANY BEST BUY within 50 MILES for less than 29.99 closest BEST BUY that carries those less than that are in CLEVELAND 51 miles away.....Good point though I could get them via usps for 14.99 for movies that are available on netflix on demand wow  ooooooooooooo yeah ok
> SORRY most people don't live near a big city where that is available, but most people in those areas have cable or sat with hd on demand
> EDIT: what's sad is the only person who has me convinced towards BR isn't even in this discussion, WHICH is my friend ADAM and here is his point...
> it's only $1 more with netflix........
> AND as I said b4 I'm gonna buy a BR player with a 500gb hd and DLNA for my bedroom,but only because DISH NETWORK supports it, that and because MOXI's are $700



And you still don't own those movies from dish or netflix, and the quality is still lower. You are comparing 2 completely different things now. Rentals and owning.

And my local Best buy is 10min away, and has dozens of cheap BD's. And only the newest releases are even close to $30, hell even most new releases come in at around 25, unless it's a big time blockbuster.

Even better, my Walmart has at least 15 different BDs for $10.

Your area is just a strange one, fast internet, but little development. Your area is not like the majority of the market.

Again, your are just wrong.



vbx said:


> If thats the case, then the difference between Blu-Ray and CBHD is price.  Everything else looks identical .



Yeah, but the reason CBHD won't be a success has already been covered. First, it's controlled by the Chinese govt. Second, it's only available in China. Third the majority of major studios don't support it. Fourth, BD already has the HD disc market won. Fifth, if they did decide to export it, it would lose a good bit of it's price advantage in tariffs and other taxes.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 12, 2009)

Wile E said:


> And you still don't own those movies from dish or netflix, and the quality is still lower. You are comparing 2 completely different things now. Rentals and owning.
> 
> And my local Best buy is 10min away, and has dozens of cheap BD's. And only the newest releases are even close to $30, hell even most new releases come in at around 25, unless it's a big time blockbuster.
> 
> ...


I didn't check walmart but bb 10 min away from you still = about 50 mile for me
*And I get both of your points about collections and i cannot argue that point at all*
But collectors are a minority these days and well always*
Most people are like me they just rent, unless a movie is really good
your right 720p and 1080p are like night and day it's almost like 480i to 720p, but 720p is still slightly outselling 1080p methinks that will change by years end though as Stocks replenish with the new stuff
Now about internet infrastructure not being able to handle that in the next 2-3 years
                   Ok maybe you missed this it's not hard to find though..........................
Have you heard about Obama's Stimulus plan and the part about modernizing the electrical grid and communications overhaul  Look that up and argue with that
this is a strange area btw we never had faster internet than anywhere up until now but they are really working on it around here as i'm sure that will spread to you by next spring
And why would i care if I don't own it if i can watch it whenever i want too!!!!!!!! really! just so I can have a box? It's the new movies I care about If  there good after I rent them, I'll but it. but those movies at walmart for less than $10 and those at BB less than $25 are older and available to me for rent with less money spent in the end
And netflix is dumping money into their HD on demand section as well
And have you seen any of the dlna stuff really it started about a year ago and now it's better than sd tv and catching up.... for fuck sakes it TV ON DEMAND and it commercial support big time
but like i said im gonna get a BR/dvr/dlna for my room and im sure i'll buy several VIVID movies for that in BR


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## Wile E (Aug 12, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> I didn't check walmart but bb 10 min away from you still = about 50 mile for me
> *And I get both of your points about collections and i cannot argue that point at all*
> But collectors are a minority these days and well always*
> Most people are like me they just rent, unless a movie is really good
> ...



And our areas still don't account for the normal internet connection in America. And ISPs are all moving to bandwidth caps, so the speed becomes unimportant if you go over your download amount.

And fiber optic has been available in an area 30minutes away from me for over 3 years now, yet it still hasn't expanded beyond that. The internet infrastructure has always progrressed slowly in the US.

And don't bring some shitty stimulus plan into this. We've already seen what these hasty stimulus plans really do, and they don't actually stimulate anything they are supposed to.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 13, 2009)

How come you keep jumping from one point to another jmcslob?

you have now 4 arguments maybe 5 and still don't prove a thing this thread is done with the initial argument (CBHD vs BR)

im sorry your content with "having it stored in a box under your tv"

either you don't have friends and don't need to take your stuff to there house of you really don't like owning things.

but most people with friends/family that have movies and watchs them sometimes and wants a friend to see it. that means in your case they always have to go to your place...hm and its still just a digital crappy compressed file

this argument is dumb there is no more sense in saying anything cause you come back with some half assed comeback that still doesn't validate your points.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 13, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> How come you keep jumping from one point to another jmcslob?
> 
> you have now 4 arguments maybe 5 and still don't prove a thing this thread is done with the initial argument (CBHD vs BR)
> 
> ...


look back in 2-3 years


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## Steevo (Aug 13, 2009)

My parents own a 46 new 1080P, and already want a 52.
They are planning on either buying a PS3 to get blu-ray or a cheaper drive for the new computer and hooking it up to their 46, and buying long range KB and mouse. they already have Vista X64 Ultimate and Media Center, they just need a remote to make it go now.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 13, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> DVD proved capability of having at least four layers...
> 
> 
> Does it matter?  Nope, Bluray/HDDVD is where to go if 8.5 GiB isn't enough.  History repeats.



sorry i get what your saying now, yeah your right, that point was not needed 

but i do think blu ray is the best way to get HD and will be for the next 5-7 years, here anyway.. 

and jmcslob.. yes i do think CBHD is a good idea its cheap and great quality video, problem is it is neither here nor there because well i dont live in china and chances of it comeing here are basially none, no studios will support it that matter and if it did it would bd HD DVD all over again (ironic isn't it). and in china im sure it will fall through if they don't get studio support like HD DVD did here..


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 13, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> look back in 2-3 years



It's good to know we have a psychic...

Haha, ok man i can easily say the same thing

Check back in 2-3 years. when blu ray is still around and affordable 

i'll tell you what if your right i'll GIVE YOU my blu ray player and movies.

Do you not remember DVD? i mean really are you forgetting this is just a repeat pattern of what happened when DVD released?
Why are you ignoring that? and not seeing whats really going on. Why would more companies sign up with sony's blu ray if its a lost cause?
because...it's not, yes you'll have the option to download and rent/download and own/ or buy the dvd or even buy the Blu Ray.

But point is you shouldn't own a blu ray player if you don't care enough for better sound and quality and you are going to have to pay extra for that quality, and until it becomes old it will cost more. Than it will drop in price and become a common format (like DVD did to VHS).

-__-


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 13, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> It's good to know we have a psychic...
> 
> Haha, ok man i can easily say the same thing
> 
> ...


Ok

i will admit you are right about BR in every way except it's life span, as Wile E has pointed out i guess i live in a strange area with exceptional broadband, but anyways I think people like me with good internet (and from the looks of ur IST people around u) may just go for the on demand stuff, DLNA is just hitting the market, i think once people realize they don't need a PC to watch internet TV it's gonna boom, as far as CBHD your likely correct, but we'll see,but none the less BR is cut off in CHINA, there it's CBHD or DVD and that economy is huge it may only be like 1% of the population watching CBHD but that's still 3,000,000 people


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 13, 2009)

isn't the life span the thing your arguing as in saying 2-3 years it will be done?

and im arguing it wont be 2-3 years ? thus your still convinced that it isn't going to grow. even th.ugh it' continues to grow every day/


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 13, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> isn't the life span the thing your arguing as in saying 2-3 years it will be done?
> 
> and im arguing it wont be 2-3 years ? thus your still convinced that it isn't going to grow. even th.ugh it' continues to grow every day/


Yeah


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 13, 2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Science-Ficti...rd_p=484615971&pf_rd_i=16261631&tag=tec06d-20 go look here and tell me online video purchasing not catching on  Rent or buy em Quality looks great and with a DLNA tv or device like Tivo you can download it and watch it anytime-AND you can watch it if your not home maybe over a friends house as long as they have a DLNA device or a PC
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10186046-93.html over 100,000 in 9 months updated figures due soon but around 200,000 estimated
compare that to 400,000 BR units in 2 years? hmm and that does not include other devices like the XBOX or PANASONIC Viera's or some newer LG TV's or PC's hmm..
or blu ray players ..... Still not happy then try this
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10059371-1.html?tag=mncol;txt it's 1080p


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 13, 2009)

Hm..
"The catch, of course, is that the HDX movies aren't available immediately--you'll need to queue them up and wait several hours before viewing"

Isn't this what Wile E, and i were saying the problems with downloading movies? yeah, waiting several hours to see it, and thats for people with good connections what about the people who DON"T have good connections? still invalid, noone said the quality couldn't be great? so what was this point...again...another useless point.


And the Roku, is old news? what the hell is wrong with you hahaha once again, that is another one of those things that hold no argument, its renting movies from the internet, which i do...on my xbox...and ps3? yeah these will sell and are doing great? but they aren't comparable to blu ray because A) its a renting device so who gives a shit really? and B) it's quality is really not that good especially on a 46 inch tv (trust me i know).

AND THE FIRST LINK....

ONCE AGAIN we aren't talking about renting movies, yes everyone loves renting movies its good to do if you don't want to BUY a movie that is the logics of renting.... and yeah you'll have to make sure your friend buys a tivo or has a DLNA tv? and a pc? wow thats like saying 

"well you can get a blu ray player if you install a blu ray drive in your pc and hook it up to your tv..." or telling your friend to simply waste over a thousand dollars to get a DLNA tv.. ha

Haha 400,000 blu ray unit? thats odd.. 

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6651924.html

i do believe that 10.5 million units is a decent number well over 400,000 
Point is your comparing apples to oranges once again

STOP COMPARING RENTAL SERVICES TO OWNING MOVIES

At this point your just wasting everyone's time and trying to put blu ray to shame...just stop.

yes it cost a lot of money and still does but with the steady drop in price it only makes it more tempting to consumers.

The only promising thing i saw on your post was the HDX 

EXCEPT for the fact that it's been out for so long and not many own one.

http://cnet.nytimes.com/digital-media-receivers/vudu-bx100/4505-6739_7-32589079.html

those con's are pretty shitty and thats why i'd stay away from it


really stop trying..just leave it be.


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## Triprift (Aug 13, 2009)

In the amount of time youd be dling ur hdx movie you could of nipped down to ur local store bought ya fav title and wached it on a big arse plasma.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 13, 2009)

Triprift said:


> In the amount of time youd be dling ur hdx movie you could of nipped down to ur local store bought ya fav title and wached it on a big arse plasma.


AMEN! but you forgot a few parts...
You could have also gone to the movies to see a movie, ate at a fancy restaurant (on a Friday night), THAN gone out and bought your favorite movie, Come home clean the house watch your movie you rented from the store on your big arse plasma. 

and it would still be downloading 

That product will flop if it hasn't already my favorite part is that review says "box is worthless if company ever goes under."

haha yea, that makes me feel good


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## jandy12 (Aug 15, 2009)

I really dont think supporting a format whose software is owned by the Govt is a good idea at all.
Maybe this format will flourish in China, but I cant see it working anywhere else


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## wrongful1212 (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree with that ,more over when it is something that government made,it seems government is less concern quality rather then private company

wrongful death
lawyer​


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## Triprift (Aug 15, 2009)

jandy12 said:


> I really dont think supporting a format whose software is owned by the Govt is a good idea at all.
> Maybe this format will flourish in China, but I cant see it working anywhere else



My thoughts exactly unless they didnt menchin chinese government as it woudnt be good advertising.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 15, 2009)

> And the Roku, is old news? what the hell is wrong with you hahaha once again, that is another one of those things that hold no argument, its renting movies from the internet, which i do...on my xbox...and ps3? yeah these will sell and are doing great? but they aren't comparable to blu ray because A) its a renting device so who gives a shit really? and B) it's quality is really not that good especially on a 46 inch tv (trust me i know).


On the Amazon link Click on the movie you are now given the option to buy it as well as renting it,And as far as 10.5 million units, That includes all sales,PS3,laptops,pc drives and br/dvr/dlna units as far as stand alone br players yes it's only 400,000 units-you can't find that info with sales charts as Sony is not releasing them hmmm... why? I am by no means saying br is not big, Cause it is almost as big as DVD which says a lot in a diminishing market and if you read any outlook reports from the major research firms they all predict BR will out pace DVD by 2012 just before it is overtaken by "digital downloads"-but that's a we'll see figure-


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## lilkiduno (Aug 15, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> I didn't check walmart but bb 10 min away from you still = about 50 mile for me
> *And I get both of your points about collections and i cannot argue that point at all*
> But collectors are a minority these days and well always*
> Most people are like me they just rent, unless a movie is really good
> ...



The history of media has proven that BR will be around for quite a while, look at Compact Diskd (CD's) Verses Tapes. VHS verses DVD. BR has already Beaten HD DVD. Netflix is a Cute idea but lets face it yes you can rent a movie send it back and WAIT for the next or watch some movies off the box they give you. But if you really like movies in which i do you can buy the movie and have it, next thing you know you have 450+ of your favorite movies. Guess what they are there for when I want them.

Plus you mention the stimulus plan, the 870 BILLION dollar SPENDING bill! what the hell is it doing? NOT SHIT! I mean unemployment wasn't suspost to go over 8% and guess what it's nearly 10% in the whole US. I do hope you take the exter $12 each payday and rent your Netflix!


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 15, 2009)

lilkiduno said:


> The history of media has proven that BR will be around for quite a while, look at Compact Diskd (CD's) Verses Tapes. VHS verses DVD. BR has already Beaten HD DVD. Netflix is a Cute idea but lets face it yes you can rent a movie send it back and WAIT for the next or watch some movies off the box they give you. But if you really like movies in which i do you can buy the movie and have it, next thing you know you have 450+ of your favorite movies. Guess what they are there for when I want them.
> 
> Plus you mention the stimulus plan, the 870 BILLION dollar SPENDING bill! what the hell is it doing? NOT SHIT! I mean unemployment wasn't suspost to go over 8% and guess what it's nearly 10% in the whole US. I do hope you take the exter $12 each payday and rent your Netflix!


Around here the Stimulus money is already improving stuff, we are getting river based hydro electric plants to clean our water supply, and work on the electrical grid between PA and IA, or across all of northern OH has already begun, our county hub (Warren,OH) is getting a face lift, Youngstown OHIO is now FORBES best place to start a business in America because of Federal stimulus money And yes I have tried to state this before YES BR WILL STILL BE AROUND FOR SOMETIME HOWEVER IT WILL PEAK IN 2-3 YEARS AT WHICH POINT IT WILL ONLY REMAIN THE  DOMINATE FORMAT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME AS WHEN THE ALREADY EXISTING AND STRONG GROWING "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS" BECOME THE DOMINATE FORMAT FOR MOVIE VIEWING AND IF THE TREND CONTINUES THAT SHOULD HAPPEN IN THE LATER PART OF 2012, FOEBES BELIEVES THAT,C/NET BELIEVES THAT, MICROSOFT BELIEVES THAT AS WELL WITH EVERY MAJOR RESEARCH CONSULTING FIRM, I THINK WITH OVER 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS PUT TOWARDS THAT GOAL THIS YEAR ALONE BETWEEN MICROSOFT,NETFLIX ROKU,AMAZON,APPLE,LG,SAMSUNG AND ON AND ON AND WITH ENTIRE MARKETS CUT OFF, YEAH THAT's PRETTY MUCH WHAT WILL LIKELY HAPPEN, AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A PSYCHIC TO SEE THAT YOU JUST HAVE TO OBSERVANT, HISTORY IS NOT JUST HISTORY IT'S LIFE'S TREND, IT TENDS TO REPEAT ITSELF


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## lilkiduno (Aug 16, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> Around here the Stimulus money is already improving stuff, we are getting river based hydro electric plants to clean our water supply, and work on the electrical grid between PA and IA, or across all of northern OH has already begun, our county hub (Warren,OH) is getting a face lift, Youngstown OHIO is now FORBES best place to start a business in America because of Federal stimulus money And yes I have tried to state this before YES BR WILL STILL BE AROUND FOR SOMETIME HOWEVER IT WILL PEAK IN 2-3 YEARS AT WHICH POINT IT WILL ONLY REMAIN THE  DOMINATE FORMAT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME AS WHEN THE ALREADY EXISTING AND STRONG GROWING "DIGITAL DOWNLOADS" BECOME THE DOMINATE FORMAT FOR MOVIE VIEWING AND IF THE TREND CONTINUES THAT SHOULD HAPPEN IN THE LATER PART OF 2012, FOEBES BELIEVES THAT,C/NET BELIEVES THAT, MICROSOFT BELIEVES THAT AS WELL WITH EVERY MAJOR RESEARCH CONSULTING FIRM, I THINK WITH OVER 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS PUT TOWARDS THAT GOAL THIS YEAR ALONE BETWEEN MICROSOFT,NETFLIX ROKU,AMAZON,APPLE,LG,SAMSUNG AND ON AND ON AND WITH ENTIRE MARKETS CUT OFF, YEAH THAT's PRETTY MUCH WHAT WILL LIKELY HAPPEN, AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A PSYCHIC TO SEE THAT YOU JUST HAVE TO OBSERVANT, HISTORY IS NOT JUST HISTORY IT'S LIFE'S TREND, IT TENDS TO REPEAT ITSELF



History dose tend to repeat it's self quite often, and i know this. but the thought of Digital Downloads might be possible. but how will they put forth a database for it? will it be like Steam is with games? but at this point it's implusible due to the fact the are TONS of people without a computer let along the internet to download these "digital downloads". And the stimulus was a joke. Ok i will admit that maybe the stimulus money has started to shine in your community... or wait that might have been EARMARKS that gave your community a FACE-LIFT. what did that really do for your community? it made it look better it didn't creat long term jobs, Yes FORBES may have said it's the place to start a business, but then again in this economy who is really taking the risk to open up a business? Right now it would be a joke to RISK thosands of dollars in order to open a business. and the healthcare reform will make people even less likely to open a small business. Most of those companys deal with computers so yes it might be a thought for them to capitolize on the thought of "Digital Downloads" might be a thought. But right now Apple already dose "digital Rents" and so dose netflix.

History dose repeat itself. so dose all the faliures in history!


----------



## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 16, 2009)

Wile E said:


> And fiber optic has been available in an area 30minutes away from me for over 3 years now, yet it still hasn't expanded beyond that. The internet infrastructure has always progrressed slowly in the US.



... I know how that feels. In fact a city 30mins away from me has Fiber optic connection, yet us... All we have is DSL @ 3mb/s, you would think we would have something even a little bit better. :shadedshu


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 16, 2009)

lilkiduno said:


> History dose tend to repeat it's self quite often, and i know this. but the thought of Digital Downloads might be possible. but how will they put forth a database for it? will it be like Steam is with games? but at this point it's implusible due to the fact the are TONS of people without a computer let along the internet to download these "digital downloads". And the stimulus was a joke. Ok i will admit that maybe the stimulus money has started to shine in your community... or wait that might have been EARMARKS that gave your community a FACE-LIFT. what did that really do for your community? it made it look better it didn't creat long term jobs, Yes FORBES may have said it's the place to start a business, but then again in this economy who is really taking the risk to open up a business? Right now it would be a joke to RISK thosands of dollars in order to open a business. and the healthcare reform will make people even less likely to open a small business. Most of those companys deal with computers so yes it might be a thought for them to capitolize on the thought of "Digital Downloads" might be a thought. But right now Apple already dose "digital Rents" and so dose netflix.
> 
> History dose repeat itself. so dose all the faliures in history!


I guess I just don't believe things are going to remain the same with anything, I think given time the stimulus package will do it's job it's just now getting out there now, it took longer than a week to get to where we are I'd say 12 years, so i'd say give it at least a year, trust me I no it seems to long of a wait, but it's not like a choice for us is it, and health care reform, to put simply currently we rely on more people to pay into a system so we can all have what we cannot afford right? that is how insurance works is it not? but the problem is, is that employer's cannot afford to pay for it, so most are left without it, and whats worse than that is people who work without insurance pay for it for those on wellfare and what's worse than that is the greedy who could provide it to their workforce but choose to stuff their pockets, and I'm sorry but we are a REPUBLIC which quite literally means "The Good of the many Outway the Wants of the FEW" and as i see it people are more worried about the few than the many WHICH is getting CORRECTED! like it or not. As for those without a pc trust me there are other options such as EVERY TV Maker Has a Model out Now that has INTERNET TV capabilities, even -BLU-Ray players with netflix viewer and MLB-tv and AMAZON rental and digital owning just got an add with my last Neflix DVD FOR lG br/dvr/dlna/netflix viewer,- Roku, Xbox,Ps3
I'm sorry if some greedy asshole stuffed his pockets instead of getting better internet in your area or anywhere for that matter Seems we out spent Romania 100,000-1 last year on Internet services and look how good their connection is compared to ours 50/50 lines geese that would be nice...
It's coming...it's here....It's getting better week to week.....before you know it you will have it...
Yeah i have a huge dvd collection and next to maybe Jay and Silent bob strikes back and Idiocracy I don't really need them since Netflix has the rest on Demand...they just collect dust


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 16, 2009)

Than either your too lazy to put the dvd in? or your not understanding,

noone is saying downloading wont be one of the best "formats" to VIEW movies, but as far as OWNING them it won't take over BR or DVD, i use netflix on my 360 and love it, makes "renting" movies easy. BUT if there is a movie i like and a movie i want to own i go to the store and pick up a copy of it and add it to my collection, your talking for mainly yourself when yourself when you say your movies are collecting dust cause netflix has them....

can this thread be over, really man you have too many arguments going on from the stimulus pack,CBHD,Digital renting/owning,

just leave it alone, point is and should have stopped at 

CBHD will not kill BR,

BR is the next big FORMAT,

Digital downloading is popular but people will still like to collect movies

and in the end the only "war" will be weither the movie was good enough to buy.

you really can't consider BR vs Download a war cause one wont kill the other.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 16, 2009)

joinmeindeath417 said:


> Than either your too lazy to put the dvd in? or your not understanding,
> 
> noone is saying downloading wont be one of the best "formats" to VIEW movies, but as far as OWNING them it won't take over BR or DVD, i use netflix on my 360 and love it, makes "renting" movies easy. BUT if there is a movie i like and a movie i want to own i go to the store and pick up a copy of it and add it to my collection, your talking for mainly yourself when yourself when you say your movies are collecting dust cause netflix has them....
> 
> ...


 The thing is i do agree with you Br will be around for 5-7 for collectors, your determination makes me think that..But as far as the top format i still think 2-3 for Br to be KING, then things shift towards Digital...yes this can be over I will even say you Win


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## SamHughe (Aug 16, 2009)

This reminds me the SVCD (Super Video CD) format which also was very popular in Asia and the Middle East as a cheap alternative to DVD. You could play it with xing or could get a stand alone VCD player for the fraction of a cost of a regular DVD player. Well, DVD still lives so will Blue-ray.


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## qamulek (Aug 16, 2009)

*"download" only is the future*

Take an xbox360 removable HDD, replace the capacity with a 1TB+ drive, and you have the potential for a "download" only player.  The problem as mentioned is downloading will take forever for a lot of people with current broadband, and is not an option for many more people that don't have broadband.  The solution is to add the infrastructure so that you can take that removable HDD to a physical store, sign into your account, buy a high quality digital copy that is as many GB as a Blu-Ray, then "download" it from the store which would not really be downloading since the store will have a copy already on HDD's ready to make a protected copy onto your HDD.  I say protected since no doubt there will be DRM issues where at home you probably will need to be connected to the internet to sign into your account to actually watch the movie.

As mentioned they need to be very versatile in the implementation of the DRM allowing you to take your HDD to a friends house, plug the HDD into your friends player, sign into your account on your friends machine, then watch your movie.  Also allow protected copies onto flash cards so that instead of bringing your entire HDD to a friends house you can just bring a flash card that has a copy of the movie you want to watch on a friends machine(to actually watch it you would still have to sign into your account).  I could even imagine timed copies being allowed on handhelds using a much lower quality copy.  

The point is to be versatile in the DRM implementation so that we don't feel screwed buying a digital copy.  As an example of bad implementation I give you Steam.  I am a person that really likes Steam, but I have come to not like Steam due to the way it handles offline mode.  There has been instances where my internet has gone down preventing me from using Steam online mode.  The first time this happened I thought "no problem just use Steam offline mode" only to find I need to be connected to the internet to sign into my account to put me into offline mode.  An easy solution would be for Steam to have a timed certificate for offline mode that renews itself any time you sign onto the online mode of Steam, that way if your internet goes down you will still have offline mode to fall back onto.  Imagine if Steam sold downloaded copies of movies where if your internet went down it decided to stop playing your movie...  Proper implementation is key.

Recently youtube has shows you can watch in exchange for watching a few 30 second commercials.  Imagine being able to go to your local store and "download" a timed copy of any movie you want to watch in exchange for having to watch commercials("downloaded" with the movie).  That would be much better then basic cable since as of now I don't even watch basic cable since what I want to watch is usually not on, and I have a DVR(from comcast) which is nice except I hardly want to watch anything thats on basic cable.  For those that don't want to watch commercials you could rent a timed copy.  

To help automate the process I imagine there would have to be a method to browse at home selecting what you want to buy/rent/commercial-rent, then simply walk into a store with a kiosk, plug in your HDD or flash card, then the kiosk would get your info off the hdd/flash-card and "download" what you already selected at home.

A "download" only machine would put the hurt on rented movie stores, a hurt on used game sale stores since there would be no such thing as a used game in a "download" only console, and put a hurt on basic cable.

I'm tired of rambling on about the details, so to end my thoughts I can see "download" only as the future of both consoles, movies, rented movies, free commercial rented movies, and anything else that is digital so long as the implementation is done right.


PS imagine the selection that would be available for such a "download" only machine.  As of now I can walk into Fred-Myers and not find that anime or game that I want.  As a digital copy on HDD's Fred-Myers could have every game/movie/etc available for you to buy(provided the game/movie/etc was made for the "download" only machine).


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## Wile E (Aug 17, 2009)

qamulek said:


> Take an xbox360 removable HDD, replace the capacity with a 1TB+ drive, and you have the potential for a "download" only player.  The problem as mentioned is downloading will take forever for a lot of people with current broadband, and is not an option for many more people that don't have broadband.  The solution is to add the infrastructure so that you can take that removable HDD to a physical store, sign into your account, buy a high quality digital copy that is as many GB as a Blu-Ray, then "download" it from the store which would not really be downloading since the store will have a copy already on HDD's ready to make a protected copy onto your HDD.  I say protected since no doubt there will be DRM issues where at home you probably will need to be connected to the internet to sign into your account to actually watch the movie.
> 
> As mentioned they need to be very versatile in the implementation of the DRM allowing you to take your HDD to a friends house, plug the HDD into your friends player, sign into your account on your friends machine, then watch your movie.  Also allow protected copies onto flash cards so that instead of bringing your entire HDD to a friends house you can just bring a flash card that has a copy of the movie you want to watch on a friends machine(to actually watch it you would still have to sign into your account).  I could even imagine timed copies being allowed on handhelds using a much lower quality copy.
> 
> ...


Going out to get a download completely defeats the purpose of digital copies. You were better off just hitting Blockbuster and renting a BD, or someplace like Best Buy to own a BD.

The only way downloads will ever completely take over is if the internet infrastructure in the US is completely updated, and broadband offered to everyone in America at a reasonable price.


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## Steevo (Aug 17, 2009)

We have the backbone for much more content, however the content storage, and current end user base is not there.


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## Triprift (Aug 18, 2009)

Whys is alot menchined about dl the thread was about a Chinese format owning Blueray not dls.


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## joinmeindeath417 (Aug 18, 2009)

cause the poster lost the argument and tried other avenues to try convince people BR is goin to die in 2-3 years


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 20, 2009)

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?p=1559889#post1559889
AS said before a few legal ends....


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## Wile E (Sep 20, 2009)

jmcslob said:


> http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?p=1559889#post1559889
> AS said before a few legal ends....



Wait, what?


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 20, 2009)

Not as far as an end to BR but a begining to what's next..I am actually convinced BR is about to explode now.....But what's well on it's way...What companies do you think are pushing this agenda...maybe MS,Netflix,Universal studios....


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## AsRock (Sep 21, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember, this economy is still in a sad state so it is a hard sell to convince someone to buy a player for $100+ and disks at $30+.  The economic did a great deal of damage to the buy-it-to-show-it-off attitude and returned to do-I-really-need-it attitude.  All three formats of HD strain to make that sell.
> 
> HD will only take off when the prices get competitive (initial and long term) with DVDs.  People can justify spending $20 extra on an HD player  and $5 extra on an HD disk, not double the price of DVD.
> 
> ...





Wile E said:


> Except that BD's do not cost double the DVD's, and the hardware prices are already failing rapidly. And CBHD will not be adopted quicker, as multiple formats just cause confusion, and hinder adoption of all formats involved. CBHD would only hurt the HD disc market here.



Yeah, i have started to see BD's around here now for $24 ( new releases ).  And DVD's around coming out here out at the same price :|.  Although you can get DVD's much cheaper but the quality is no were near the same.

And now older films i've started to see BD movie's for $10 now at the local walmart.

EDIT:



Wile E said:


> They are using jpegs. You can't use jpegs to compare. jpegs compress the image. You need to use a lossless format like png. And look how far the BD images are shrunk down in size. You lose detail when shrinking the size.
> 
> Those comparisons aren't valid. The difference between 1080p and DVD is like VHS and DVD. Problem is, most still have 720p TVs, where the difference is less noticeable.



So true i've even noticed a difference with games never mind movie's.


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