# Major US ISPs Agree To Five Strikes Plan, Rather Than Three



## qubit (Jul 7, 2011)

_Mods, please don't move this post to GN where people won't see it. I believe that it's really important for the TPU community to see this - especially our American members.
Also, note that Techdirt have no copyright restrictions on copying their content and are indeed anti copyright in its current form._



> Well, this is hardly a surprise, given the leaks about this last month, but most of the major US ISPs have agreed to a "voluntary graduated response" plan at the urging of the RIAA and the MPAA (with some shoving from the US government).
> 
> In our original discussion, we noted that ISPs would have the option to kick people off the web entirely, and in our comments we were attacked by an anonymous person involved in the negotiations, saying we made that up. And yet, the agreement today confirms that kicking users off the web entirely is a possible measure for these ISPs. Of course, the folks behind the plan were careful to try to talk their way around this. They say that it's only the web that gets blocked. Email (um, not if you use web-based email), VoIP "or any security or health service (such as home security or medical monitoring)" will still be allowed to go through. Also the agreement explicitly says that they're not talking about killing anyone's account. This is disingenuous, of course. For most people, having their web access blocked is as good as losing your account entirely. Access to the web is pretty much the whole point of an internet access account these days.
> 
> ...



Techdirt

There's already similar corruption being done in the UK with the Digital Economy Act, which despite being the bastard love child of Peter Mandelson and the MPAA and having been rushed through parliament at the last minute without any proper debate, has still managed to fight off heavyweight challenges from BT & TalkTalk. This smacks of back room deals between the people in power and Big Media. :shadedshu

And finally of course, some countries have already implemented three strikes and are systematically abusing their people, namely France, New Zealand and South Korea.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 7, 2011)

Screw my country.  Screw its politicians.  Screw its special interests bull.

Sigh.


I love my country's founding ideals.  Freedom from tyranny, a voice in local affairs, and mutual protection.  Our founding fathers knew that most politicians (career anyway) were corrupt ba$turds.  They suggested that every so often the people need to make sure their leaders know why they should listen to the people.

In return we've gotten the Kennedys, Bushes, Obamas, Clintons, and a myriad of other half-wits whose families can pay for them to have a political career.  Screw them all!


In the last year we've (and by we I mean our political overlords) tried to curtail internet freedom with COICA, and now this.  Our other hand is reaching out to break the great firewall of China.  Who the F##K decided this was reasonable?!?

Between my local government being shut down because they couldn't agree on a balanced budget (when our law system would have defaulted and repossesed everything if it had been an average voter), and the bass ackwards response from Washington, I almost hope Anonymous gets it into their heads to hack the e-mails of the people who agreed to this policy and expose the fact that they are either incompetent fools or in the pockets of the industry.

Viva la digital revolucion!  I will be sad to see the CD based side of the music industry go, but putting the stupid apes at the top that made their industry a relic get fired makes me a happy happy man.  


In the interest of full disclosure, I have been "caught" sharing a fansubbed video.  Apparently purchasing other items from the IP, and getting fansubs online until there is an official release, is viewed as thievery even if the creators will wind up with my money in the end.  Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 7, 2011)

meh w.e guess ppl in my town will just go back to siphoning off the governments internet lol and local schools,  use to be anyone needed to download something they parked across the street of the highschool tapped into the net and just downloaded what they wanted anyway, seems that behavior will return, 

that or ppl will just use satelite as its getting far cheaper use a cheap DSL line for $20 up here to game on, and just use satelite for all other means its still cheaper then Time warners best plan they offer lol,

this dosent really change anything to be honest, my above comments are examples of ways around this anyone who dosent want to pay will find another way, 

before the internet there was bootleg cassette tapes then bootleg cds, then the internet became common , just means things will go back to older methods that accomplish the same goal


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## mrw1986 (Jul 7, 2011)

It's actually six strikes. Was reading about it a few hours ago.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...to-six-strikes-copyright-enforcement-plan.ars


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 7, 2011)

like anything else, the internet is a service provided to you when you pay for it based on a terms of service agreement. the ISP can cut you off for any reason it deems, even for no reason at all. but thankfully we still live in a country where profits matter and no ISP in its right mind would simply cut off their revenue stream to satisfy the d-bags at the RIAA/MPAA based on lousy allegations and no TRIAL.


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## qubit (Jul 7, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> like anything else, the internet is a service provided to you when you pay for it based on a terms of service agreement. the ISP can cut you off for any reason it deems, even for no reason at all. but thankfully we still live in a country where profits matter and no ISP in its right mind would simply cut off their revenue stream to satisfy the d-bags at the RIAA/MPAA based on lousy allegations and no TRIAL.



Unfortunately, the ISPs are still doing it, due to all the pressure. I'll bet there's also a few backhanders going down as well to sweeten the deal for the ISPs.  The fact you have to f* _pay_ to defend yourself against mere allegations really shows this up. :shadedshu :shadedshu

And no, I don't think it's gonna make people buy more "product". It'll just be another (significant) step towards a totalitarian state.

Unauthorized copying is _not_ theft, it's infringement, no matter how much those douchebags say otherwise. You now have a copy and the creator/source still has there's. Therefore, it's not theft. Any moron can see that.

And as to the alleged "losses" from this "theft", well, that's even more of a lie. They have never shown proof of this, ever. Just bogus stats, which the likes of Techdirt and p2pnet have called out on many times.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 7, 2011)

lets not argue what is and is not theft that will get a thread locked quick

lets not argue that point with a moderator lol

also it dosent really matter if its totalitarian or not

if you live in a 1st world country and have debt of any kind, your officially an economic slave 

you have to feed cloth and house yourself but effectively you always must work and pay for services, to make your life great, its an incentive based slavery the ISPs and MPAA / RIAA are just trying to milk you a little harder lol nothing new really anyway it dosent matter much at least to me.

but regardless arguing on theft vs not theft etc hell almost everything i just posted will result in this being put in General Nonesense.


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## qubit (Jul 7, 2011)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> lets not argue what is and is not theft that will get a thread locked quick
> 
> lets not argue that point with a moderator lol
> 
> ...



I was actually expanding on what Easy said, not disagreeing.  But I take your points.

Let's keep this thread open, people!


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 7, 2011)

i think what happens is people confuse "rights." listen, here is the hard truth that obviously is not taught in schools these days: life is a bitch. you have to work if you want to survive. thankfully we dont live in a country that demands that somebody do some work while another person gets to sit back and jerk off all day. everyone works which means everyone is free. work is a part of life. that being said, you have to work to afford your internet, is that supposed to be unfair or wrong? of course not. which is why ISPs are merely, IMO, paying lip service to the d-bags at the RIAA and MPAA by saying they will have 5 strikes. the dirty little secret is the ISPs dont care if you use their service for piracy. so people don't demonize the ISPs, they are just covering their collective ass from government regulation.


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## twilyth (Jul 8, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> like anything else, the internet is a service provided to you when you pay for it based on a terms of service agreement. the ISP can cut you off for any reason it deems, even for no reason at all. but thankfully we still live in a country where profits matter and no ISP in its right mind would simply cut off their revenue stream to satisfy the d-bags at the RIAA/MPAA based on lousy allegations and no TRIAL.


I think that you are going to have certain due process rights, particularly in cases where there are no alternate providers or the the providers collude to create black lists of violators.  They may not need to have a formal hearing and produce evidence but I'm willing to bet they can't be completely capricious about it either - at least not legally.  If that sort of thing starts to become widespread I can guarantee there will be class action suits.


Easy Rhino said:


> which is why ISPs are merely, IMO, paying lip service to the d-bags at the RIAA and MPAA by saying they will have 5 strikes. the dirty little secret is the ISPs dont care if you use their service for piracy. so people don't demonize the ISPs, they are just covering their collective ass from government regulation.


I think that's a safe bet.  For example, I use encrypted connections whenever I want to download something.  That usually means I'm using usenet or FTP, sometimes http.  So what happens if they see a couple hundred gig of encrypted communications going through my account each month?  So far, nothing.  And in the future I expect the same.  When they start telling me I can't have an encrypted link, that's when things will start getting nasty.  But as you've pointed out, it's not in their best interest to do that.

Most people use unencrypted torrents so they are basically advertising their illegal activity to their ISP - to the extent that the ISP wants to check up on them.  If they really do start trying to police such activity, people will just switch to some encrypted form of torrenting.  At least those who know what they're doing will.  I'm sure it will force a lot of people who are less tech savvy to toe the line.  It just becomes another form of natural selection.


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## qubit (Jul 8, 2011)

What never seems to be explained is whether someone that's been kicked off the internet will be blacklisted from joining another ISP. I imagine they will, but this is never clarified.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 8, 2011)

Blacklisting will only exist if it is government enforced because no ISP would in their right mind deny business. And in the US, the government has no authority to black list a free citizens internet access. They can though, if you are found guilty, fine you and/or throw you in jail if you are convicted of a crime.


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## AsRock (Jul 8, 2011)

qubit said:


> Unfortunately, the ISPs are still doing it, due to all the pressure. I'll bet there's also a few backhanders going down as well to sweeten the deal for the ISPs.  The fact you have to f* _pay_ to defend yourself against mere allegations really shows this up. :shadedshu :shadedshu
> 
> And no, I don't think it's gonna make people buy more "product". It'll just be another (significant) step towards a totalitarian state.
> 
> ...



It don't matter whot they call it really if ya ripping some one off, you deserve to get screwed in ya ass.

I download any thing from 20GB to 200GB a month and Comcast never said any thing to me as i don't download illegal stuff.  They do know when your doing some thing that your not supposed to be.



crazyeyesreaper said:


> lets not argue what is and is not theft that will get a thread locked quick
> 
> lets not argue that point with a moderator lol
> 
> ...


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 8, 2011)

AsRock said:


> I download any thing from 20GB to 200GB a month and Comcast never said any thing to me as i don't download illegal stuff.  They do know when your doing some thing that your not supposed to be.


It's none of their business.  The MPAA and RIAA are trying to force them to make it their business.  Because of how decentralized the internet is, the MPAA and RIAA are having difficulty policing it.  No one gave them the authority to "police" anything.  That's why everyone needs to slam the door in their face and/or kick them in the balls nutkick until they get the message they're not welcome.  That'll never happen though because they both have the backing of multi-billion dollar industries.  If you don't want to listen to them, they'll throw lawsuit after lawsuit at you until you're forced to declare bankruptcy.

Ultimately, this will never end until some megacorporation like Google launches lawsuit after lawsuit at MPAA/RIAA bleeding them dry so they don't have the capital to lobby.  That will never happen.


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## qubit (Jul 8, 2011)

AsRock said:


> It don't matter whot they call it really if ya ripping some one off, you deserve to get screwed in ya ass.



No, you're wrong.



AsRock said:


> I download any thing from 20GB to 200GB a month and Comcast never said any thing to me as i don't download illegal stuff.  They do know when your doing some thing that your not supposed to be.



They may know that your _account_ is downloading unauthorised stuff, they can't identify the actual person. That's a whole lotta difference. 

And Ford's answer in the post after yours is spot on.


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## bostonbuddy (Jul 8, 2011)

I like the idea of a world where all information is free and everyone has access to it.


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## qubit (Jul 8, 2011)

*Expanding on my OP*

Here's a small follow-up article from Techdirt, expanding on what they said in my OP:



> *from the guilty-until-you-paydept*
> 
> I wanted to do another follow-up on the post earlier today about the new five strikes plan "voluntarily" put in place by most of the major US ISPs and the RIAA/MPAA. One of our key concerns is the fact that it's all based on accusations, rather than any actual proof of infringement. The defenders of the plan say that it's okay because there are so many warnings and you can counter the strikes by asking for an "independent review." But... the details show that you actually will need to pay $35 to get that independent review. So it's not just guilty until proven innocent, but you need to pay up just to claim you're innocent.



Techdirt


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 8, 2011)

I accuse the RIAA of violating my privacy, and of downloading illegal content.  In order to prove anything is being illegally shared they would have to download it, otherwise they are conjecturing that my torrent labeled "Transformers 2" is a racist crappy film, and not the freely availale tutorial on designing transformers for power supplies (second part in a series of 3).  All we need is another four people to get behind it.

You see, I've used their same anecdotal proof to verify that they are guilty of copyright infringement.  They need to defend themselves in court, and pay the fees.  Imagine everyone involved raising the same accusations.  35 dollars, times 1 million citizens is one heck of a black eye.  Beyond the pocketbook hurt, it is a simple illustration that, presumably, even a politician can understand.


Where is the outrage, the media attention, the reporting?  If this was a new policy that five accusations of speeding (in a car) would lose you a driving license there would be an outcry.  Access to the internet is the same as driving, an act that we can have our permission to perform it revoked.  The difference is (in America at least) that driving is seen as a necessity by the previous generation, while the internet is seen as a "new-fangled" toy.

I await the day that the RIAA dies, smothered by the lack of sales due to Draconian business practices.  I await the day that Hollywood is eclipsed by the next generation of Lucases and Spielbergs, who can produce a compelling narrative on a shoe-string budget and know that the internet can carry their work far better than a movie theater.  These halcyon days will come, and hopefully soon.  For now Americans are being duped by politicians and special interests, and not fighting back because the guise of patriotism and security have hidden the underlying truths that we are losing freedom and rights.  

If the founding fathers were around they would be out for blood.  200 years has led to a country that doesn't understand why our predecessors would shed blood and endure the even present threat of domestic losses for something so antiquated as the double-bladed sword that is freedom.


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## AsRock (Jul 9, 2011)

qubit said:


> No, you're wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is not allowed in this household and i know for a fact it don't happen in this house.

And lets face it if your living with your parents  they get screwed not the kid under 18.


I don't agree what they are trying to do but there is shit you can do about it which is pretty much like what you can do about the UK | US government.  If it's going happen it will sooner or later.  MAybe you like to think there is some thing you can do about it but there is not as the people who have control don't give a flying fuck about you and you can hope for is the ISP gives a fuck.


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## qubit (Jul 9, 2011)

AsRock said:


> Is not allowed in this household and i know for a fact it don't happen in this house.
> 
> And lets face it if your living with your parents  they get screwed not the kid under 18.



Now, that's a household policy, I can't argue either way with that! At the moment, you have more chance of getting nailed in America than the UK*, so I can see why you would insist on it, however slight the chances are.

*Where it's virtually non-existent now that ACS Law have been nailed for extortion. Of course, this will change with time, for the worse, unfortunately.



AsRock said:


> I don't agree what they are trying to do but there is shit you can do about it which is pretty much like what you can do about the UK | US government.  If it's going happen it will sooner or later.  MAybe you like to think there is some thing you can do about it but there is not as the people who have control don't give a flying fuck about you and you can hope for is the ISP gives a fuck.



Well, never say never. If one looks back in history, people power does sometimes win out, so you never know. Even as things currently are, Big Corruption are having a much harder time putting all this draconian crap in place than you'd expect, given all their money and power.

So, once again, never say never. Perhaps some huge scandal will break at some point, nail some of these bastards and derail these plans, who knows?


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