# After these security flaws should i go with Intel 8700k or AMD R 1700?



## Abdullah Aman (Jan 6, 2018)

After these security flaws should i go with Intel 8700k or AMD R 1700 how much it effect the performance or going to???


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## R-T-B (Jan 6, 2018)

Security wise, it is irrelevant to an end user unless you plan to rent VMs.

Performance wise, the fixes hit Intel a bit harder than AMD, but you're going to find Intel is slightly faster per core than AMD anyways, so...  both are valid choices really.  Whatever you can get cheaper / whatever fits your workload best, is what I'd go for.

Basically it comes down to:  What do you like more?  Singlethreaded, or multithreaded performance?  Intel is better in singlethreaded.


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## Capitan Harlock (Jan 6, 2018)

Wait for march release of Ryzen Pinnacle ridge.


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## pigulici (Jan 6, 2018)

Same question was for me, but I just ordered the i7 8700(non k), for now it  is not so clear how much performance impact it is, if any.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 6, 2018)

pigulici said:


> Same question was for me, but I just ordered the i7 8700(non k), for now it  is not so clear how much performance impact it is, if any.


i also paling on buying 8700K on 10th of this month but now em very confused


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## R0H1T (Jan 6, 2018)

Some numbers from reddit, though *YMWV* ~


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## pigulici (Jan 6, 2018)

For me , at this point, as a home user, all this about last problems don't look much worst than usually security problems, are websites who list everyday some security issues of our electronics, if you want to sleep, don't read,I am more worry that I can't control or update the software to my "smartphone", even a adblocker can't install without root.


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## notb (Jan 6, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> After these security flaws should i go with Intel 8700k or AMD R 1700 how much it effect the performance or going to???


A patched 8700K system will still be faster, while the performance/price ratio drops a bit.
The patch does not affect gaming in significant way.


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## HD64G (Jan 6, 2018)

Anyone who gives money to products intentionally produced unsecure (for any reason) encourages them to keep doing so and ruin others who care about security. Data security means privacy. Or else we'd like living in a world with camera surveilance 24/7.


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## biffzinker (Jan 6, 2018)

notb said:


> The patch does not affect gaming in significant way.





			
				Perseiii on Reddit said:
			
		

> I just finished running Rise of the Tomb Raider benchmarks, 1080p, very high preset, FXAA.
> Unpatched:
> 
> Mountain Peak: 131.48 FPS (min: 81.19 max: 197.02)
> ...


See my #233 post in the other thread.


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## notb (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Anyone who gives money to products intentionally produced unsecure (for any reason) encourages them to keep doing so and ruin others who care about security. Data security means privacy. Or else we'd like living in a world with camera surveilance 24/7.


You'll stand by this theory when AMD patches start to roll out?


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## Peter Evans (Jan 6, 2018)

biffzinker said:


> See my #233 post in the other thread.


The minimum framerate ( percieved smoothness ) has been clobbered, bloody hell!! Those averages might not have changed but those minimums; have you played the games to see if this is perceptible to the user experinece.

Given the recent emphasis on frame-times and .1, .01 and 99% percentile etc...., surely all those measures of badness will have to be redone....EEK! After the software-plaster microcode update has been confirmed to be installed and active in mitigation of Hardware-level problem ( designed functionality ) of course.


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## Final_Fighter (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Anyone who gives money to products intentionally produced unsecure (for any reason) encourages them to keep doing so and ruin others who care about security. Data security means privacy. Or else we'd like living in a world with camera surveilance 24/7.



this. Intel knew there was an issue but still put out the product. this is not to say amd is not effected but we will see how they react with their new hardware release coming soon. i would hold off until this gets figured out. dont spend your money to promote ANYBODY who is willing to take a chance on your security.

At the end of the day tho you will have to choose and this is why it sucks only having 2 to pick from.


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## HTC (Jan 6, 2018)

Capitan Harlock said:


> Wait for march release of Ryzen Pinnacle ridge.



Agreed.

Regardless of which CPU you end up choosing, new AMD offerings should bring down to cost of old ones as well as put pressure on existing Intel's offerings, specially now with these security issues.

Furthermore, by then one should know which exact CPUs can be protected against, and @ what penalty cost (the patches).


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## R-T-B (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Or else we'd like living in a world with camera surveilance 24/7.



Data security has about as much to do with camera surveilance as auto racing has to do with apple orchards.  I really can't see the connection here, besides that both are bad to misuse.


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## pigulici (Jan 6, 2018)

"http://www.dsogaming.com/news/intel...c-shows-performance-impact-on-gaming-servers/"

still I can't wait to recieve my i7 8700 , next week.


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## HTC (Jan 6, 2018)

pigulici said:


> "http://www.dsogaming.com/news/intel...c-shows-performance-impact-on-gaming-servers/"
> 
> still I can't wait to recieve my i7 8700 , next week.



That CPU server utilization spike after the patch ...

Not possible, dude: it doesn't affect game benchmarks so the end user is not affected ...


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## pigulici (Jan 6, 2018)

Yeah, not affect the game if it is drm free and single player, like Witcher 3, but multiplayer, like CS, well, this look bad for now.


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## newtekie1 (Jan 6, 2018)

At the end of the day, I'd still go with an 8700K for my main system.  The Z370 platform is a much better platform than X370.  Maybe this will change with X470 but it isn't looking like it from the leaked specs.



HTC said:


> That CPU server utilization spike after the patch ...
> 
> Not possible, dude: it doesn't affect game benchmarks so the end user is not affected ...



It is if that game server is using VMs to host multiple games at once.  But that still isn't a scenario consumers will be affected by.


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## HD64G (Jan 6, 2018)

notb said:


> You'll stand by this theory when AMD patches start to roll out?


Until today the official facts we "know" are about this security flaw topic are:

1) AMD didn't know of this flaw when Zen arch was finalised. It was discovered in early Q4-17.
2) AMD's CPUs are easily patchable (not even bios update needed) for the part of the flaw that are vulnarable without any decrease in performance until proved otherwise.
3) Intel made so just because of indifference for their product security level and when it was published they tried to make others look as bad as them.
4) Intel's CPUs aren't patchable for all of the bug cases even with os and bios updates and that's the worst of all.
5) Releasing unsecure product and trying to cover this crime by making all vendors look as bad as you is as evil as it gets imho. Any objection on that?

Let all the data come out and we will discuss again about this situation.


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## RejZoR (Jan 6, 2018)

I thought they said Spectre1 and 2 is not even fixable on Intel. And now they are saying it is. It was initially stated they only have a fix for Meltdown and even that one is with a potential performance penalty. What's true now (especially since Intel is saying they have a fix for everything all of a sudden)?


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## DeathtoGnomes (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Until today the official facts we "know" are about this security flaw topic are:
> 
> 1) AMD didn't know of this flaw when Zen arch was finalised. It was discovered in early Q4-17.
> 2) AMD's CPUs are easily patchable (not even bios update needed) for the part of the flaw that are vulnarable without any decrease in performance until proved otherwise.
> ...



Intel has always been Evil and that is nothing new, but wallets still do all the voting.


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## HD64G (Jan 6, 2018)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> Intel has always been Evil and that is nothing new, but wallets still do all the voting.


Nothing to object there. I just hope we as the customers who feed the companies stop being selfish and act responsibly to help one another and the whole pc community get better in vfm and security products instead of caring just for +1% FPS for +30% higher price that makes companies more greedy than they are by nature. Intel's practice in this security topic is derived from their confidense that most of their customers won't abandon them even when they betrayed their trust as bad as it gets. Sad to report that they seem to be correct by the reactions of those till now.


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## notb (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Until today the official facts we "know" are about this security flaw topic are:
> 
> 1) AMD didn't know of this flaw when Zen arch was finalised. It was discovered in early Q4-17.


They were informed by Project Zero on *June 1*. So it was after they launched Zen, but before many of Zen CPUs came out (including EPYC).


> 2) AMD's CPUs are easily patchable (not even bios update needed) for the part of the flaw that are vulnarable without any decrease in performance until proved otherwise.


Of course. We're waiting for this proof.
But in the previous comment you were explicitly talking about releasing a CPU with known security flaw. You didn't mention performance, so why is it becoming important now?


> 3) Intel made so just because of indifference for their product security level and when it was published they tried to make others look as bad as them.


Their first comment on this situation might not have been great (albeit true!), but the following actions were very honest and positive - including a great whitepaper and generally a lot of public information.
Check this out:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...el-apple-microsoft-others-are-doing-about-it/


> 4) Intel's CPUs aren't patchable for all of the bug cases even with os and bios updates and that's the worst of all.


I'm pretty sure we'll see patches. There already are some successful workarounds. What's your source?


> 5) Releasing unsecure product and trying to cover this crime by making all vendors look as bad as you is as evil as it gets imho. Any objection on that?


They could always say: "most of CPUs with this flaw are very old, so we are unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue"


> Let all the data come out and we will discuss again about this situation.


But before that happens, we're discussing the matter with the info we have. However, you're assuming the worst possible intentions - almost criminal-level. I'm assuming they are really working on a solution. And I like sum of feedback we've been getting. ARM is even better in this aspect. AMD does...well - nothing. They said that this issue doesn't exist on their CPUs (when exploits were already shown to work).

Moreover, both Intel and ARM have already covered the issue beautifully - including information and publications - on their main websites.
Intel put it on main US site (considered "global" or "main") - right below the Olympics bullsh*t:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/homepage.html
ARM has it in news:
https://www.arm.com/news

So what about AMD? Well... it's not on the home page and not in News. It's in Investors Relations. And it's really poor. It can't even be called "covering issue" - more like "mentioning it"...
http://ir.amd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=74093&p=irol-irhome

And BTW: I've just noticed what else is on their home page. *AMD Fan Store!* It says it all, doesn't it?


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## HD64G (Jan 6, 2018)

notb said:


> They were informed by Project Zero on *June 1*. So it was after they launched Zen, but before many of Zen CPUs came out (including EPYC).
> 
> Of course. We're waiting for this proof.
> But in the previous comment you were explicitly talking about releasing a CPU with known security flaw. You didn't mention performance, so why is it becoming important now?
> ...



Intel is forced to reply in detail as their the big player in CPU industry for private customers and server and cloud also and are in big risk losing contracts and maybe face mass suits on court. Damage control clearly. If AMD is proven false in their claims they are evil also. Do you take the same stance against Intel though? I think not.

 So, let's wait for further proof on what's going on but till now AMD's CPUs are vulnerable for a part of that flaw and for Linux and is patchable with just an update without sacrifising performance. And I mentioned performance because Intel sacrifised security to get better benchmark results to sell more cpus. Am I wrong?


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## R-T-B (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> And I mentioned performance because Intel sacrifised security to get better benchmark results to sell more cpus. Am I wrong?



Pretty much.  There are likely ways to fix this bug on silicon without impacting performance.

What they did do, and ARE guilty of, is launching a flawed product to market knowingly and not giving two shits about it.  They basically did this to ensure a 1-2 punch to Ryzen, IMO.  It was all about market position.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 6, 2018)

Ironically, I think that if you look at performance loss per type of workload, the overall recommendations for Intel or AMD CPUs really haven't changed.

if you need the cores/threads for your workload > AMD Ryzen or TR; even the HEDT platform is in a better shape for that
if you need the single thread responsiveness > Intel.

What's new I think is that HEDT space; to still consider Intel for thát right now, really has become a no-no unless you need it for a very specific piece of software/optimization of software for Intel.


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## Solaris17 (Jan 6, 2018)

1 week into this fiasco and I am happy to report my chip not only still manages to launch video games but my machine has not come to a crawl.

Also no breaches to my security have been made and my machine has not had a ransomware infection as of yet.

Stay tuned!


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 6, 2018)

My work mostly mostly related to wed development android studio and gaming


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## HD64G (Jan 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Pretty much.  There are likely ways to fix this bug on silicon without impacting performance.
> 
> What they did do, and ARE guilty of, is launching a flawed product to market knowingly and not giving two shits about it.  They basically did this to ensure a 1-2 punch to Ryzen, IMO.  It was all about market position.


This can only been proven if they launch soon a secure cpu with the same size and transistor count and specs and get the same perfomance. Until then...


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## pigulici (Jan 6, 2018)

Not sure about Photoshop , didn't find any test, but here they tested only for Windows pre-post patch(not microcode patch), look ok for me:

https://www.techspot.com/article/1554-meltdown-flaw-cpu-performance-windows/


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> This can only been proven if they launch soon a secure cpu with the same size and transistor count and specs and get the same perfomance. Until then...


That be 2020 minimum and its the one likely to be first fixed cpu ,ie released as fixed ,it will have to be similar to the current fix at this point though due to redesign r and d ,masks tests etc, an optimal redseigned fix is like 2022 territory in reality and anyone saying different lies.

Am4 makes Amd the only choice to me at least if something gets known or done you Have options.

You won't with intel.


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## erocker (Jan 6, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> My work mostly mostly related to wed development android studio and gaming


So then, other than for gaming you don't need much of a powerful CPU. Get whatever is in your budget, put more money into a good video card. Patch or no patch, the Intel chip is going to be faster most of the time in games.


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## R-T-B (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> This can only been proven if they launch soon a secure cpu with the same size and transistor count and specs and get the same perfomance. Until then...



I suppose that's true, but I mean, isn't AMD already close enough in that regard to prove it is technically possible?


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## Vario (Jan 6, 2018)

8700K.  Even with the CPU patch it will probably be faster for an individual user and might be a class action on these things anyway


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## Bones (Jan 6, 2018)

R-T-B's first post sums it up nicely, it's really about what your intended useage is for the build plus the budget you have for doing it. Both chips will do and I seriously doubt you'd see enough difference between them to matter so much, if wanting the absolute max FPS in a game then the 8700K is the setup you'd want - If running programs with an emphasis on multi-threaded useage then the 1700 is the ticket.

Personally if going AMD I'd consider getting the 1700X since you can do more with it from a tweaking standpoint but again the cost is another factor, the 1700 itself is plenty for what you could use it for. Intel based boards are more expensive too vs AMD based boards based on a comparable model standpoint as I'm finding out for myself since I have a 7700K headed my way and I'm browsing ATM for something that I could get for it. It's really up to you if the extra $$ is worth it or not going with an Intel because honestly, the AMD based setups as a whole are cheaper to get, esp now since DDR4 RAM is so expensive and you'd have to have some of that regardless.


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## notb (Jan 6, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Intel is forced to reply in detail as their the big player in CPU industry for private customers and server and cloud also and are in big risk losing contracts and maybe face mass suits on court.


And AMD is not a big player?!


> If AMD is proven false in their claims they are evil also.


Oh man... I'm going to have a laugh quoting this post in few weeks... or days... 


> And I mentioned performance because Intel sacrifised security to get better benchmark results to sell more cpus. Am I wrong?


No. But earlier you were talking about releasing a new CPU knowing it has a security flaw - something both Intel and AMD did.
Now you're saying that AMD is cute, because in their case a fix doesn't affect performance. 

Generally speaking, Intel did not sacrifice anything. Your opinion (similarly to that of many people here) clearly shows you didn't read much about the problem. 
Meltdown attack exploits a fairly popular design principle (CPU optimization). The idea works also on AMD CPUs - it's just that their design is slightly different to Intel's, so the particular attack technique created by Project Zero didn't work. It doesn't mean someone won't find a way to do this in the future. Project Zero at first also didn't succeed with ARM, but half a year later we know ARM is also affected (and they confirmed). So you should hope that AMD, while saying their CPUs are safe, quietly fixes this problem. And yes, this could also result in a performance drop.

Seriously, all 3 flaws are pretty typical and serious from security standpoint. I find it rather disturbing that on this forum we're talking so little about security and so much about performance.
Things like this happen. They are identified, analyzed and fixed - sometimes after a long time. Intel and ARM (and possibly AMD) will patch their current CPUs and will have to think about other ways to increase performance.
We end up in a better PC world with more secure systems. It might be a slightly slower PC world, but *performance is not the most important thing in IT*.


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## FireFox (Jan 6, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> if you need the single thread responsiveness > Intel.



You forgot the most important thing *( GAMING ) *


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 6, 2018)

notb said:


> And AMD is not a big player?!
> 
> Oh man... I'm going to have a laugh quoting this post in few weeks... or days...
> 
> ...


The wording again theoretically it could be used to attack an amd processor but due to how they do pre execution it's believed to be and so far proven to be (unlike some)safe ,and the attack techniques could advance on either platform to be fair making me right when I say the only motherboard worth getting is one where their are chips being designed now for that Could be intrinsically safe and that could be Am4 zen3 by the time 6 months more research is done.
Intel(sorry per board, platform) have no upgrade path and hence No future option's to me imho.


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## Vario (Jan 6, 2018)

No upgrade path argument is kind of silly.   Upgrading the CPU and keeping your dated board?  You can sell the old board on eBay and get a decent amount of money to buy a new board when you upgrade because people will pay a lot of money for an old socket.  Its not a big deal to have to switch to a new socket when a new cpu comes out.  Given that modern CPUs are good for 4+ years before they are even remotely irrelevant its a moot point.  And boards improve a lot as technology improves.   Also boards seem to fail around 10 years anyway.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

Guys if i can't wait i want to buy a PC in few days so then which way should i go Ryzen or intel 8700k


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## HTC (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> Guys if i can't wait i want to buy a PC in few days so then which way should i go Ryzen or intel 8700k



What's the intended use? Gaming only?

EDIT

Also: what are your other components? You should fill in your system specs.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

HTC said:


> What's the intended use? Gaming only?
> 
> EDIT
> 
> Also: what are your other components? You should fill in your system specs.


gaming on ultra setting (I already have GTX 1070) Android studio work (For AMD Ryzen Android studio emulator works only on Linux) and web development and database work


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## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> which way should i go Ryzen or intel 8700k



Definitely 8700K


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

I already have GTX-1070, 16GB DDR4 3200MHZ ,SSD Samsung EVO 850 250GB, WD 1TB hard drive, and Deepcool Assassin 2 cpu cooler only thing i need is Motherboard processor and case


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## HD64G (Jan 7, 2018)

I'd go for Ryzen 1600X or 1700X depending on the badget and buy better GPU or PSU or bigger SSD with the money earned from not getting the intel.

UPDATE: Just saw the above post. You need to check if this RAM you have is compatible with any decent mobo for Ryzen.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

HD64G said:


> I'd go for Ryzen 1600X or 1700X depending on the badget and buy better GPU or PSU or bigger SSD with the money earned from not getting the intel.
> 
> UPDATE: Just saw the above post. You need to check if this RAM you have is compatible with any decent mobo for Ryzen.


yes it is compitible with ryzen or Intel


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## cucker tarlson (Jan 7, 2018)

What a surprise it is to see that now that this security flaw has been revealed AMD is the only option for guys who chose FX over Core


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## notb (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> yes it is compitible with ryzen or Intel


Just go Intel - it'll be way easier to live with. And since you're into Android Studio, going Ryzen is just asking for trouble and unnecessary workarounds.

As for RAM... well... it may/should work, but imagine a situation it doesn't and you have to buy a new set. You'll be near a X299 budget...


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## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Definitely 8700K



Only if you need +100 FPS. If its a 60fps  / 1440p or higher res target you have, Ryzen is MUCH more cost effective and will perform exactly the same.

The 8600k/8700k are only good for high refresh gaming, anything below that, doesn't use the extra Ghz. For all his other tasks, the extra threads will be much more helpful than high single thread performance. At lower price.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

notb said:


> Just go Intel - it'll be way easier to live with. And since you're into Android Studio, going Ryzen is just asking for trouble and unnecessary workarounds.
> 
> As for RAM... well... it may/should work, but imagine a situation it doesn't and you have to buy a new set. You'll be near a X299 budget...


 
Will corsair 460x be fine for me


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## FYFI13 (Jan 7, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Only if you need +100 FPS. If its a 60fps  / 1440p or higher res target you have, Ryzen is MUCH more cost effective and will perform exactly the same.
> 
> The 8600k/8700k are only good for high refresh gaming, anything below that, doesn't use the extra Ghz. For all his other tasks, the extra threads will be much more helpful than high single thread performance. At lower price.


Not exactly true. There are games (not that many, though) where you're going to play with less than 60FPS with 8700K and even less than that with Ryzen.


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## Enterprise24 (Jan 7, 2018)

FYFI13 said:


> Not exactly true. There are games (not that many, though) where you're going to play with less than 60FPS with 8700K and even less than that with Ryzen.


Yup. Totalwar , Civilization late game , heavily modded Cities Skylines are very hard to keep 60fps even with modern CPU.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

FYFI13 said:


> Not exactly true. There are games (not that many, though) where you're going to play with less than 60FPS with 8700K and even less than that with Ryzen.



So if both CPUs still drop below 60, why pick a much more expensive 8700k that has the same behaviour? 

Civilization for example loves the additional threads a lot more than it loves the additional 1 Ghz. The point stands: for high refresh gaming (which means, for 90% of all users: games that BENEFIT from high refresh the most, and where its achievable), the 8600k (mind you, it does exactly the same as an 8700k but will clock higher at the same power envelope = more net gaming perf) fills that niche. Below that, Ryzen and a 8600k will do the exact same, but Ryzen 5 adds free SMT.


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## slehmann (Jan 7, 2018)

What Intel really needs at the moment is that customers stay away 1 or 2 years from their products.
They betrayed all customers when launching 8th generation cause they knew about the security flaws when they did the lauch.
Also they gave us only minor performance bumps (3%) and not more cores since many generations (ix 2xxx was the last real improvement) of their processors.
They need some hard reminder from the market to get back on track.


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## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> If its a 60fps



We are in 2018 where 60 FPS it's old story at least for me since long time ago



Vayra86 said:


> Ryzen is MUCH more cost effective and will perform exactly the same.



You are Hilarious


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## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> We are in 2018 where 60 FPS it's old story at least for me since long time ago
> 
> 
> 
> You are Hilarious



And your profile pic says Xeon Enthusiast. I think we're done here 

Meanwhile, on Ryzen 3...  (!!)


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## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> And your profile pic says Xeon Enthusiast. I think we're done here



OMG what does my profile has to do with all this, cant you be an Enthusiast of something and use it as Profile?


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## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> OMG what does my profile has to do with all this?



It shows your bias and my linked bench confirms that you're wrong. Even Ryzen 3 comfortably stays above 60 fps in the vast majority of titles, and it runs lower clocks than a  Ryzen 5, while also being just 4c. At the same time this bench clearly shows why the 8600k and 8700k are filling the niche for high refresh rate gaming.

You need to open your eyes. Extra performance only matters if you can utilize it.

Also, here's why I say it matters ZERO when you are at 1440p or higher - and do note, Hitman 2016 is a DX12, well threaded game that keeps scaling in performance if you have it.

EDIT: yes, as to your comment below here; you just confirm what I am saying. This topic is about choosing between Ryzen and a 8700k, the question at hand was NEVER 'what is the fastest CPU one can buy'. 150 FPS is high refresh rate, yes? OK THANKS. Your 'zone' is irrelevant to this discussion.

Oh yes, here is the kicker: OP Has a *GTX 1070.*


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## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Even Ryzen 3 comfortable stays above 60 fps



Yeap but always behind the 8700K plus that is at 1920x1080 let's move to my Zone 2560 x 1440 where i have 150 FPS in Ultra settings



Vayra86 said:


> You need to open your eyes.



And you need to stop making Shows


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## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Yeap but always behind the 8700K plus that is at 1920x1080 let's move to my Zone 2560 x 1440 where i have 150 FPS in Ultra settings
> 
> 
> 
> And you need to stop making Shows



Just admit you were being a bit silly and all is fine. Don't be a sore loser. My only 'show' is being on topic.


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## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Just admit you were being a bit silly and all is fine. Don't be a sore loser.



You wish.

However have a nice Sunday.


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## cucker tarlson (Jan 7, 2018)

Actually both R7 1700 and 8700K would be worse value/performance for a 1070 rig than 8600K. And the point that one of you is making, namely why go 8700K if Ryzen can do 60, is just dumb. You wanna spend your money unwisely- do that with your own funds. Ryzen 7 is a great budget productivity/workstation CPU, and owes most of its deserved praise specifically to that, not gaming, where Intel still wins.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

so which one i go for PLZ simple answer


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## cucker tarlson (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> so which one i go for PLZ simple answer


what cpu and mobo are you running atm ?


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## Final_Fighter (Jan 7, 2018)

im sure at 4k the gap is even less. my recommendation is the r7 1700 because as time goes on you are more then likely to use higher resolutions and even get the urge to upgrade. socket am4 is very capable and will meet all your needs. just pair it with a decent b350 motherboard and call it a day.

I am also recommending this because how intel went ahead and released their latest series of processors knowing there existed a potentially massive security issue. but not only that, it also effects ALL OF THEIR PREVIOUS GENERATION OF PROCESSORS. i dont believe i will see much of an impact but knowing they had an issue and still releasing this series was out of line. not to mention the CEO cashing in before the news broke.

The r7 1700 is a VERY capable processor and you should spend your money wisely. Until intel makes this right i cant recommend their procs atm. the fact that this stuff is now in news means the Chinese, Russians and other intelligence agency's are going to try and figure out how to exploit it. many government agencys that hold much of our personal information trusted intel and they still put their product on the market knowing it was not safe.

Please spend your money wisely. ultimately the best thing to do is wait and see if amd is also safe. give it a week but if you have to make a decision right now go amd.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

8600k, or Ryzen 5 1600, depending on budget + how many things you usually do while you're gaming. If you have a lot running, Ryzen will probably be a smoother experience. If you don't, 8600k will guarantee higher FPS.

But since you're on a GTX 1070, I don't see the point of the 8600k, you're GPU limited either way.

If overclocking isnt your preference, the i5 8400 is an even better bang/buck. But its difficult to find one at this time + you overpay on a Z370 board you won't need.


----------



## Final_Fighter (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> so which one i go for PLZ simple answer



Get the r7 1700 or the r5 1600 + b350 mobo.


----------



## Abdullah Aman (Jan 7, 2018)

cucker tarlson said:


> what cpu and mobo are you running atm ?



sold my old pc going to buy a new motherboard and processor 8700k+ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING or R7 1700 + ROG CROSSHAIR VI HERO  for the rest of PC read my previous post


----------



## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

cucker tarlson said:


> Ryzen 7 is a great budget productivity/workstation CPU, and owes most of its deserved praise specifically to that, not gaming, where Intel still wins.



Exactly.

AMD
*WORKSTATION*

Intel
*GAMING*

But for some people that is hard to understand/accept


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> AMD
> *WORKSTATION*
> ...





Abdullah Aman said:


> gaming on ultra setting (I already have GTX 1070) *Android studio work (For AMD Ryzen Android studio emulator works only on Linux) and web development and database work*





What is this, 'how thick can I be' Sunday? I'm really questioning some people's reading ability right now. There is no way EITHER CPU will bottleneck a 1070.
If we are considering it good advice to just recommend the most expensive mainstream CPU for EVERY USE CASE, lets just put that in sticky somewhere and not waste time, OK? Otherwise, PLEASE. READ.


----------



## notb (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> AMD
> *WORKSTATION*
> ...


Sorry, but this is SO not true.

AMD is non-existent in workstations. After 5 years of Bulldozer sadness they only had some market share in gaming/enthusiast client group. And guess what: they are marketing Ryzen almost purely for gaming at this point. They are also investing to make it a better gaming CPU (alliances with game studios etc). Zero interest in enterprise applications. In the meantime Vega FE also "evolved" from _creativity_ to coin mining.
Intel dominates workstation (and enterprise computing in general). They are marketing their CPUs for this segment and they are investing to keep this position in the future.

Seriously, performance is of second importance. Especially now, when the gap became so small.

This is the second thread lately when someone asks about a CPU for Android Studio. I think we've already exhausted the topic - it was written for Intel and doesn't work well with AMD CPUs. And yet, people here keep suggesting Ryzen.


----------



## HTC (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> gaming on ultra setting (I already have GTX 1070) Android studio work (For AMD Ryzen Android studio emulator works only on Linux) and web development and database work



Can't recommend either way simply because i'm not familiar with the needs of the work intended you mentioned.

For gaming, Intel still rules, for now anyways: who knows after all this security debacle if that will still hold true.


----------



## Vario (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> so which one i go for PLZ simple answer


I just built and am running an i5-8600K and a Asrock Z370 Taichi with Gskill DDR4 Tridentz F43200C14-8GTZ and it is nice.  Feels very fast, stable, and responsive.  With most of these Z370 boards you should update the bios once you get it because it fixes issues with the overclock and turbo, easy to do.    Someone above mentioned that If you are running Android Studio get an Intel.  That would be a clear reason to get the Intel.


----------



## IceScreamer (Jan 7, 2018)

If there were no issues with Android studio on Ryzen, I'd go with that. Since Ryzen (currently at least) is not working with Android studio properly then go with Intel. You wouldn't make a mistake choosing either of those.


----------



## trparky (Jan 7, 2018)

At this point, I really don't care what Intel does now; they have betrayed our trust. They tried to cover it up, tried to obfuscate it, tried to make it seem like it was less than it really was all in an effort to make themselves look less bad than with PR doublespeak. They have betrayed our trust. I would go with AMD based on principles alone.


----------



## 64K (Jan 7, 2018)

I would go with the 8700k

As far as gaming goes the only game I've seen affected very much by the patch so far is Assassin's Creed: Origin. It shouldn't slow an 8700k down enough to matter though considering the 1070 will max out on that game on very high settings before an 8700k would slow you down even with the patch.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 7, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> AMD
> *WORKSTATION*
> ...


Because such extreme statements and polar statements are unhelpful and untrue but it does depend on use case and in gaming Op it is quite simple, if you're a high Fps 1080p gamer go intel, if you're a high IQ high res gamer go Amd as regardless of the huffing at high Res and high image quality intel is not giving anything extra for the premium.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 7, 2018)

trparky said:


> View attachment 95636
> 
> they have betrayed our trust. They tried to cover it up, tried to obfuscate it, tried to make it seem like it was less than it really was all in an effort to make themselves look less bad than with PR doublespeak. They have betrayed our trust. I would go with AMD based on principles alone.



Because Intel has* Betrayed* you sell your i5 3570k @ 4.4 GHz and go Ryzen, for sure nobody will hold you back


----------



## trparky (Jan 7, 2018)

I'll keep using my current chip until I do my upgrade but when I do my upgrade I won't be giving any more of my cash to Intel.


----------



## Vario (Jan 7, 2018)

Such high drama from some of you guys.

If he uses Android Studio and Android Studio requires Intel to work, then he needs to get an Intel.  In that case I recommend the 8600K and a Z370 Taichi.


----------



## FYFI13 (Jan 7, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> So if both CPUs still drop below 60, why pick a much more expensive 8700k that has the same behaviour?


Because there's a big difference between 50-55 and 30-35 FPS. That's 7700K vs Ryzen 1800X in Arma 3 Wasteland for example.


----------



## Readlight (Jan 7, 2018)

I want AMD 10 core for next 10-20 years.  I not going sell my soul to get it. economics not great.


----------



## R0H1T (Jan 7, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> so which one i go for PLZ simple answer


Just do a coin toss, *heads* - R7 1700 or *tails* - R7 1700x


----------



## ASOT (Jan 7, 2018)

Gaming,productivity and general use/stuff can be done better with 8700K,smoother use,snapy in windows task

8th gen i7 are grown platform,perform great,stability improve,ram compatibility,more lane/feature
so u got a mature desktop experience


----------



## Bones (Jan 7, 2018)

ASOT said:


> Gaming,productivity and general use/stuff can be done better with 8700K,smoother use,snapy in windows task
> 
> 8th gen i7 are grown platform,perform great,stability improve,ram compatibility,more lane/feature
> so *u got a mature desktop experience*



Would said experience be X rated?


----------



## ASOT (Jan 7, 2018)

Bones u can call it better performance eXperience ))))


----------



## Bones (Jan 7, 2018)

Sounds right to me..... 

Seriously, the 8700K for gaming would be best if that's his intented use of the setup..... However if he'll be doing alot of stuff that will place workloads like 3D rendering, video encoding, photoshop and the like then the 1700 would be best for that.


----------



## notb (Jan 7, 2018)

Bones said:


> Seriously, the 8700K for gaming would be best if that's his intented use of the setup..... However if he'll be doing alot of stuff that will place workloads like 3D rendering, video encoding, photoshop and the like then the 1700 would be best for that.


He precisely mentioned *Android Studio* which doesn't work properly on Zen. Why don't you guys read the question?!

Seriously, I've seen forums where moderators would reprimand for this kind of "advice"... Maybe TPU will get to this level some day.

Also, Photoshop performance doesn't scale well on multicore CPUs, so 8700K is possibly the fastest CPU you can get today for this program. 8-core Ryzens are beaten by 7700K easily and by better i3/i5 in most load types.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> Because such extreme statements and polar statements are unhelpful and untrue but it does depend on use case and in gaming Op it is quite simple, if you're a high Fps 1080p gamer go intel, if you're a high IQ high res gamer go Amd as regardless of the huffing at high Res and high image quality intel is not giving anything extra for the premium.


You guys are comparing to the fairly cheap 1700, while you should compare to 1700X and 1800X, because these CPUs are more suitable to compete with 8700K without OC.
8700K: $390
1700: $300
1700X: $360
1800X: *$460 !*

As for the premium for Intel:
1) IGP. Maybe you don't care about it, but many users will.
2) Your DDR4 from previous machine will work. Many Ryzen buyers will decide (or be forced) to get new RAM. 16GB costs $200 at the moment. How much will you get for your used set? 50%?
When you sum up the whole PC, going Intel might not be that expensive. Maybe even cheaper (thanks to IGP). The only problem with 300-series is lack of cheap motherboards, but they should surface in few weeks.

Also, which CPU will be better for gaming 5 years from now? Any bet?
I'd love to see your opinions back from the t you bought your FX.


----------



## Thefumigator (Jan 7, 2018)

Go for Ryzen 7 1700.
If you use Android Studio then the x86 emulator will not run.
But if you are serious about android development you would not use the emulator at all, you would plug your android device to your PC and debug there. Still faster than any emu


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 7, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Anyone who gives money to products intentionally produced insecure


Intel didn't deliberately make their CPU's with a vulnerability, because really, who would do that?


HD64G said:


> Data security means privacy.


True, and totally agree!


HD64G said:


> Or else we'd like living in a world with camera surveillance 24/7.


That's already a reality in some places. Visit New York City or London for example.


R-T-B said:


> What they did do, and ARE guilty of, is launching a flawed product to market knowingly and not giving two shits about it.


It's not a flaw, and that's not what happened. Intel made a product which is itself a refinement of a previous product and during the final stages of product launch became aware of a potential vulnerability. You can't expect them to not launch said product. Vulnerabilities are found all the time, this just happens to be a problem with how the CPU itself functions normally. Software still runs perfectly on the affected CPU's. This is a vulnerability, not a bug, not a design flaw and not a manufacturing defect. And as software patches are either already released or are being worked on, it a non-issue. Meltdown will, like many other vulnerabilities, soon be history.


Vayra86 said:


> And your profile pic says Xeon Enthusiast. I think we're done here


Come on now, don't be that guy.. ;-) We're all tech enthusiasts here and there's no need to be at each other's throats.


Abdullah Aman said:


> sold my old pc going to buy a new motherboard and processor 8700k+ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING or R7 1700 + ROG CROSSHAIR VI HERO  for the rest of PC read my previous post


For what you have stated you want to do, my recommendation would be to go for the AMD based build. Better performance for your money and platform support has been confirmed until the end of 2020, leaving you a ton of upgrade paths. I'm not saying this because of any AMD vs Intel nonsense, but only because you have stated your needs, indicated a budget constraint and want to know what hardware will best fit those needs. The Ryzen 7 series CPU's are excellent performers. You will not be disappointed with one of them.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 7, 2018)

notb said:


> He precisely mentioned *Android Studio* which doesn't work properly on Zen. Why don't you guys read the question?!
> 
> Seriously, I've seen forums where moderators would reprimand for this kind of "advice"... Maybe TPU will get to this level some day.
> 
> ...


what when people where saying get an I7 720 or a I5 , my fx games at 4k so well im still its owner and your Bs regarding memory revolves around a resolved issue QVL lists, heard of them and the 1700 is the common sense buy , i get the android studio bit so its down to his choice ,personally , as i said before.


----------



## Bones (Jan 8, 2018)

notb said:


> He precisely mentioned *Android Studio* which doesn't work properly on Zen. Why don't you guys read the question?!
> 
> *Seriously, I've seen forums where moderators would reprimand for this kind of "advice".*.. Maybe TPU will get to this level some day.
> 
> ...



I'm "So Sorry" that I gave what I deemed to be good advice - NOT.
Don't care if you have a problem with it or not. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and that's not a huge deal for me to accept. It was given with the honest intent of helping on my part and saying I should be reprimanded for doing that and nothing else is something I know could apply to you too at some point and time here because I know you've been mistaken before yourself somewhere along the way. Until you can prove how perfect you are, just knock it off with such troll-posting already.

Sorry guys but that statement rubbed me the wrong way and I'm not afraid to say so.

Carry on.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 8, 2018)

Thefumigator said:


> Go for Ryzen 7 1700.
> If you use Android Studio then the x86 emulator will not run.
> But if you are serious about android development you would not use the emulator at all, you would plug your android device to your PC and debug there. Still faster than any emu


Just tested that on a Ryzen 7 system I'm currently building. Had no problem at all installing and running BlueStacks, NOX or KOPlayer. Can't speak about Android Studio as I don't have it, but is really all that different?


----------



## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

You know that you can write Android apps in Microsoft Visual Studio, right? It even comes with a fully working emulator.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 8, 2018)

trparky said:


> You know that you can write Android apps in Microsoft Visual Studio, right? It even comes with a fully working emulator.


Did not know that. Kinda cool actually.


----------



## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

Yeah, you can write Android apps in either C# or VB.NET using Microsoft Xamarin.


----------



## Abdullah Aman (Jan 8, 2018)

trparky said:


> You know that you can write Android apps in Microsoft Visual Studio, right? It even comes with a fully working emulator.


it Still have problems because of the HAXM it is INTEL technology and windows doesn't allow Ryzen to get benefit from This


----------



## Regeneration (Jan 8, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> After these security flaws should i go with Intel 8700k or AMD R 1700 how much it effect the performance or going to???



You can install the patch, BIOS update, and lose 1-2 fps. Or you can go with Ryzen, and lose 8 fps.


----------



## Abdullah Aman (Jan 8, 2018)

Regeneration said:


> You can install the patch, BIOS update, and lose 1-2 fps. Or you can go with Ryzen, and lose 8 fps.


man i am saying intel is better in this case please read carefully


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 8, 2018)

I would advise intel as well if working on Android Studio.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 8, 2018)

Vario said:


> Such high drama from some of you guys.
> 
> If he uses Android Studio and Android Studio requires Intel to work, then he needs to get an Intel.  In that case I recommend the 8600K and a Z370 Taichi.



Solid choices except a Taichi is on the expensive side for a 'measly' 8600k (almost same price board vs CPU!). Even if you target 5Ghz. You can save 40-60 bucks there and get midrange with the same feature set. Such as an MSI Gaming Pro Carbon, or a wide range of other stuff at even lower price. The advantage of a Taichi only is a very well decked out VRM.

Still struggling to see the point of an 8700k.


----------



## notb (Jan 8, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Still struggling to see the point of an 8700k.


If you struggle to see the point of 8700K, why recommend R7 1700?  Wasn't the future all about many threads?

8700K is the fastest CPU that meets his needs and budget. That's the point.


----------



## Final_Fighter (Jan 8, 2018)

without a doubt the 8700k is the best choice for his needs but because of the title i felt like i should add my thoughts and opinions. its not that the ryzen cant do what he needs or that its bad at gaming its just that he will need to compromise a little and use linux to run android studio, but for somebody whos into this type of work i just assumed it would not be a big deal for him to setup a duel boot.

if you are ok with the way intel released this iteration of procs knowing it put others information at risk then get the 8700k. As things sit now the impact the upcoming patches for the bios and software will have is unknown. you should keep that in mind because you are using your computer for more then gaming and its always a good idea to look out for your investment.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 8, 2018)

notb said:


> If you struggle to see the point of 8700K, why recommend R7 1700?  Wasn't the future all about many threads?
> 
> 8700K is the fastest CPU that meets his needs and budget. That's the point.



Perf/dollar, the same reason I'd never recommend R7 1700 and never did, but posted a choice between R5 1600 and 8600k all along  The gain from those extra threads is in both cases a pretty serious price increase for the build, and will increase the requirements for case and cpu cooling as well. I am seriously wondering if that extra horsepower will ever be utilized.

Its already a fact that a 1070 will not perform differently between those choices. I am unsure how much it will affect the other use cases.

Again, its easy to recommend the fastest, most expensive rig for every use case. The question is whether that is sound advice, or just pissing away (other people's) money. I say this in part also because I've been reading about Android Studio and it seems to choke on other stuff such as RAM + storage long before it'll choke these CPUs.

I've also learned now that its an application that prefers single thread over many threads. Again, making it questionable to add HT.


----------



## Vario (Jan 8, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Solid choices except a Taichi is on the expensive side for a 'measly' 8600k (almost same price board vs CPU!). Even if you target 5Ghz. You can save 40-60 bucks there and get midrange with the same feature set. Such as an MSI Gaming Pro Carbon, or a wide range of other stuff at even lower price. The advantage of a Taichi only is a very well decked out VRM.
> 
> Still struggling to see the point of an 8700k.


Nothing measly about the 8600K, its just the 8700K without hyperthreading.  As it has 6 cores it is very nearly the exact same performance for gaming and most anything else as the 8700K.  With the Z370 Taichi I can run 5 ghz at 1.25v.  I doubt I'd be able to run that with a cheapo board.  Its well worth it for the VRM.  The 8700K is  $100+ more.  I would rather put $80 into the motherboard instead.  I have been there before and ran a 3770K with a "measly" budget board and the instability and poor overclockability was a constant problem.  There are people that put $80 more into cooling systems or cases or lighting or fans that give little benefit overall.  I like having a solid reliable board now.  For me, it is worth it.  As far as running the 8600K, I never noticed a bit of difference between a 3570K and a 3770K.  I don't think Hyperthreading really makes an impact for the average person unless you are doing video encoding.  The 8600K is pretty well threaded as it does have 6 physical cores.  Stock for stock it is a tiny bit faster than a 7700K.  As a hexacore, it uses a lot of power when overclocked and those improved VRMs are useful in that scenario.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Jan 8, 2018)

in reply to the title, OP question. Intel has given (devoid of any moral, greed or other complication arguments) 10 + years of great performing CPU's overall. frankly, i cant think of a time when the CPU was a problem in the last decade + , and given that track record i still trust that they'll figure out whatever it is thats going on currently , and address it accordingly. so, i would still buy Intel, until the performance or track record became such that it wasnt reasonable to do so, as an end user. If i had to use Dog$hit for Thermal paste, Id still buy intel.

im not going to argue with anyone over any of the in's and outs of this security stuff, as i dont frankly care about it, this is my opinion based on my years of never having a single cpu based issue.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 8, 2018)

Vario said:


> Nothing measly about the 8600K, its just the 8700K without hyperthreading.  As it has 6 cores it is very nearly the exact same performance for gaming and most anything else as the 8700K.  With the Z370 Taichi I can run 5 ghz at 1.25v.  I doubt I'd be able to run that with a cheapo board.  Its well worth it for the VRM.  The 8700K is  $100+ more.  I would rather put $80 into the motherboard instead.  I have been there before and ran a 3770K with a "measly" budget board and the instability and poor overclockability was a constant problem.  There are people that put $80 more into cooling systems or cases or lighting or fans that give little benefit overall.  I like having a solid reliable board now.  For me, it is worth it.  As far as running the 8600K, I never noticed a bit of difference between a 3570K and a 3770K.  I don't think Hyperthreading really makes an impact for the average person unless you are doing video encoding.  The 8600K is pretty well threaded as it does have 6 physical cores.  Stock for stock it is a tiny bit faster than a 7700K.  As a hexacore, it uses a lot of power when overclocked and those improved VRMs are useful in that scenario.



I've been swapping back and forth between the Taichi and higher midrange like the Pro Carbon and Asus Prime-A, I know exactly what you're feeling and saying but let's be honest with ourselves, 95% of this is emotional and not fact-based. As for the 8600k vs 8700k, there is a significant TDP gap between the two, especially when OC'ing due to the presence of an extra 3MB L3 and HT. Regardless, even the midrange ~150 dollar boards will push that to 5 Ghz just as well - as proven by countless reviews, benchmarks, etc. The differences here are in the chip/silicon lottery, not the board/VRM.

For reference, my current, old rig is based on a Gigabyte Z77X-D3H which really is bottom midrange (price: 120 eur at the time), and it behaves exactly the same in terms of OC as much more expensive boards and remains rock solid to date. For any air and AIO-cooled rig, honestly, it doesn't seem to matter. You should see the list of all Z370 offerings above 150 dollars and how similar they are (over 3/4th of them even have the *exact same* VRM sections) - the differences are feature sets (USB A/C, 3.1, number of SATA, Wifi, and M2 slots, thats it), and on the top-end (which is where the Taichi starts really) you see overkill everything, which is meant for extreme OC's with custom loops / LN2. Not our simple 5 Ghz wishes.

Let's just admit, that the Taichi is sexy af


----------



## John Naylor (Jan 8, 2018)

At this point, it's all speculation with most of the writing being agenda driven.  I would wait at least two weeks for better info to be available and see if you are in any way impacted.


----------



## Vario (Jan 8, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> For reference, my current, old rig is based on a Gigabyte Z77X-D3H which really is bottom midrange /QUOTE]


Yeah I have the Z77X-UD3H and it was not the greatest.  It had good features but the ram compatibility was abysmal and the CPU I had clocked higher on other motherboards.  I had to run a beta bios to run my samsung ram stable.  Fan control was also very lacking.  After that I bought a higher end board and I am not disappointed.  System is substantially more stable.  The bios is much easier to use.  I really like the Asrock Taichi and I think it is well worth it.  I don't really care what the board looks like but it performs well and it was easy to install windows 7 which was another plus.  I can only recommend what I have used and I am pretty happy with this board and CPU in the week I have owned it.


----------



## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> it Still have problems because of the HAXM it is INTEL technology and windows doesn't allow Ryzen to get benefit from This


Why would Microsoft purposely handicap their development environment for Android when they are trying so damn hard to get themselves not only be noticed but taken seriously?


----------



## yeeeeman (Jan 8, 2018)

I would buy the R7 1700, set it at 4.0Ghz and forget about it. Intel always kept prices high and only now, when AMD delivered great products they finally moved to 6 core and lower prices.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 8, 2018)

trparky said:


> Why would Microsoft purposely handicap their development environment for Android when they are trying so damn hard to get themselves not only be noticed but taken seriously?


That's a good point. In the mobile arena, they are almost non-existent. Even if you count the Surface, that is hardly a serious presence.


----------



## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

Microsoft's whole strategy from this point on is to put other mobile platforms first be it Android or iOS and that involves the idea of write once, run it on any platform. They have all but said that Windows Mobile is dead hence the reason that they have been trying to get their apps on both Android and iOS as fast as possible.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jan 8, 2018)

Z370 fatal1ty K6 seems like a very good board and still cheaper (ekhm, I mean less obscenely expensive) than Taichi,which will cost him as much as the 8600K CPU . Same excellent VRM, only one less m.2 ultra but still has 2 of them.

Man, an unlocked i5 with z Z370 board and fast DDR4 (+3000) really cost a pretty penny now. I remember Z77/Z97 boards with unlocked i5s (Sandy/ivy/Haswell) and top speed DDR3 kits like 2400MHz cost noticeably less money. i5s with a Zxx boards used to define great price/performance for gaming, now they're more like enthusiast level price.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jan 8, 2018)

Android Studio is one of the worst IDEs I have ever tried to work with , I've tried it on anything from old dual cores to a recent generation i7 and it is always painfully slow. And that's only one problem (and it's the most acceptable) , it is in general a bug riddled piece of garbage. No wonder most developers prefer iOS over Android.

In my option no matter what you'll buy , you'll have a equally shitty experience with it from this point of view.


----------



## Kissamies (Jan 8, 2018)

8700K. I personally don't even care about those flaws.


----------



## notb (Jan 8, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> No wonder most developers prefer iOS over Android.


Developers prefer iOS over Android for multiple reasons, IDE being one of the least important.
iOS uses more elegant languages (Objective-C, Swift) with easy integration of many more (C++, Python, Ruby etc). And it's much easier to code for (since it's closed and proprietary).
Apple stands firmly behind the idea of limited number of phones, i.e. limited number of specs and resolution variants. Android is all over the place.
It's like cooking for your long-time partner VS cooking for his/her whole family - some allergic to almost everything, some vegans, some can't stand well-done meat.

And yes... profits from iOS tend to by larger. 

Sure, Apple nailed it with Cocoa, but Microsoft is even better with Visual Studio - and it can be used for Android development.
It's just that with VS you have to know how to code (a bit), while Cocoa and Android Studio are also perfect for people after 2-week "become a programmer" course.


----------



## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

@notb, there is something to be said for an all-inclusive ecosystem.

If you make an iOS app there's a 99% chance it will work on every iPhone and iPad ever made (within the last four years) because iOS version adoption is very high whereas in the Android world you have no idea if the device your app is running on is going to be running Android 7 Nougat, Android 6 Marshmallow, Android 5 Lollipop, or God forebid even something older than that. The Android ecosystem wouldn't be the mess that it is if it weren't for the stupid OEMs doing their own thing and the carriers mucking things up even more so just because they can.


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## Vya Domus (Jan 8, 2018)

trparky said:


> The Android ecosystem wouldn't be the mess that it is if it weren't for the stupid OEMs doing their own thing and the carriers mucking things up even more so just because they can.[/QUOTE]



It's solely Google's fault , they refused to divide Android into core OS features  that can be upgraded independently and whatever the OEM throw in.


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## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

That's because Android was built as a monolithic system. If you want to change something you have to hack the code. If you want to add something you have to hack the code. If you want to do just about anything you have to hack the code. There's no plug-in or skinning architecture that allows you to do stuff without having to hack the code. Now had Google made a skinning engine that would allow you to change stuff simply by modifying an XML file along with a plug-in architecture similar to how both Google Chrome and Firefox does things Android would have been a whole lot better.

Windows, despite its many... many flaws, is architecturally far more extensible than Android is. Windows is very modular in nature, you can plug stuff in and have it work without touching core OS components. Heck, you can even add stuff to the right-click context menus in Windows Explorer just by adding stuff to specific areas of the Windows Registry. There's no such thing on Android so from a purely architectural point of view Android is technically inferior.


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## Vario (Jan 8, 2018)

cucker tarlson said:


> Z370 fatal1ty K6 seems like a very good board and still cheaper (ekhm, I mean less obscenely expensive) than Taichi,which will cost him as much as the 8600K CPU . Same excellent VRM, only one less m.2 ultra but still has 2 of them.
> 
> Man, an unlocked i5 with z Z370 board and fast DDR4 (+3000) really cost a pretty penny now. I remember Z77/Z97 boards with unlocked i5s (Sandy/ivy/Haswell) and top speed DDR3 kits like 2400MHz cost noticeably less money. i5s with a Zxx boards used to define great price/performance for gaming, now they're more like enthusiast level price.


Now the current i5, as a hexacore is more similar to the old i7 quad with ht.  The i3 quad core is more similar to the old i5 quad core.  Both in price and performance.   Another good board appears to be the MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon.


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## Vya Domus (Jan 8, 2018)

trparky said:


> That's because Android was built as a monolithic system. If you want to change something you have to hack the code. If you want to add something you have to hack the code. If you want to do just about anything you have to hack the code.



No , there are definitely better ways of dealing with this. As seen by what Google has done with Oreo and the inclusion of the hardware abstraction layer. They could have done this ages ago but they didn't , there was nothing inherit about Android that prevented them from doing something about it.


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## trparky (Jan 8, 2018)

But if Google had included a skinning engine of sorts then things like TouchWiz, SenseUI, and the like would not have been required. With that skinning engine you could (in theory of course) completely change the look and feel of the entirety of the user interface by simply changing an XML document that's loaded at boot. No core code changes would be required, just some edits to an XML document. Think of it like WindowBlinds but for Android.

And then you have the whole plugin architecture that both Firefox and Google Chrome has, you can plug your own code in and make the browser do all kinds of stuff all without having to change a line of core browser code. Had Google implemented that kind of plugin architecture into Android there wouldn't be a need to change a single line of core Android code, it would just plug in via APIs and away you went.

Think of it this way, Apple has so many of what they call "kits". PhoneKit, SiriKit, MusicKit, etc. Apple may sound silly by calling them "kits" but in the end they are APIs, APIs that allow third-party code to plug into the OS and make it do things that ordinarily it would not be able to do so using standard and approved APIs which brings not only standards but stability to the platform all without having to change a single line of core OS code. This is how Android should have been made, this is how Windows has been made for decades stretching as far back as Windows 95. Microsoft had the vision to see a need for developers to extend and supplement the Windows OS, Apple had the vision to do the same with iOS, Google did not.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 8, 2018)

Vario said:


> Yeah I have the Z77X-UD3H and it was not the greatest.  It had good features but the ram compatibility was abysmal and the CPU I had clocked higher on other motherboards.  I had to run a beta bios to run my samsung ram stable.  Fan control was also very lacking.  After that I bought a higher end board and I am not disappointed.  System is substantially more stable.  The bios is much easier to use.  I really like the Asrock Taichi and I think it is well worth it.  I don't really care what the board looks like but it performs well and it was easy to install windows 7 which was another plus.  I can only recommend what I have used and I am pretty happy with this board and CPU in the week I have owned it.



Its great to hear though, that you like the board. I mean like I said... its still in my mind


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## Vya Domus (Jan 9, 2018)

trparky said:


> But if Google had included a skinning engine of sorts then things like TouchWiz, SenseUI, and the like would not have been required. With that skinning engine you could (in theory of course) completely change the look and feel of the entirety of the user interface by simply changing an XML document that's loaded at boot. No core code changes would be required, just some edits to an XML document. Think of it like WindowBlinds but for Android.
> 
> And then you have the whole plugin architecture that both Firefox and Google Chrome has, you can plug your own code in and make the browser do all kinds of stuff all without having to change a line of core browser code. Had Google implemented that kind of plugin architecture into Android there wouldn't be a need to change a single line of core Android code, it would just plug in via APIs and away you went.
> 
> Think of it this way, Apple has so many of what they call "kits". PhoneKit, SiriKit, MusicKit, etc. Apple may sound silly by calling them "kits" but in the end they are APIs, APIs that allow third-party code to plug into the OS and make it do things that ordinarily it would not be able to do so using standard and approved APIs which brings not only standards but stability to the platform all without having to change a single line of core OS code. This is how Android should have been made, this is how Windows has been made for decades stretching as far back as Windows 95. Microsoft had the vision to see a need for developers to extend and supplement the Windows OS, Apple had the vision to do the same with iOS, Google did not.



This has nothing to do skins and plugins. Google (like they have done now) should have separated core OS elements and make them upgradable without the intervention of OEMs a long time ago. Anyway  , this is offtopic.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 9, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> This has nothing to do skins and plugins. Google (like they have done now) should have separated core OS elements from everything else a long time ago.


Android is based heavily on Linux. Making the changes you describe, while not a bad idea, would require effectively writing a whole new and completely incompatible OS. The whole idea behind Android using the Linux code set and school of thought is that there would be an entire planet of people already knowledgeable in the platform available for instant development.


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## trparky (Jan 9, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Android is based heavily on Linux. Making the changes you describe, while not a bad idea, would require effectively writing a whole new and completely incompatible OS. The whole idea behind Android using the Linux code set and school of thought is that there would be an entire planet of people already knowledgeable in the platform available for instant development.


Yes, and then you have the likes of the OEMs that have bastardized Android into the piece of crap that is shoveled our way. Android is open, yes, I understand that but corporations have taken control of it and have assimilated and destroyed it. Think of the OEMs as if they are the Borg; lower your shields and surrender your software, we will add your technological distinctivness to our own, your software will adapt to service us, resistance is futile.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 9, 2018)

trparky said:


> Yes, and then you have the likes of the OEMs that have bastardized Android into the piece of crap that is shoveled our way. Android is open, yes, I understand that but corporations have taken control of it and have assimilated and destroyed it. Think of the OEMs as if they are the Borg; resistance is futile.


If you're talking about Samsung? Ok. But most of the smaller makers do things the way Google's vision was aiming at, and for the most part they do it right. Razer is the lastest example of getting it right. Blu, OnePlus, and many others get it right. If you don't like the "bastardized" versions of Android, there are a lot of high quality options out there to take advantage of. Hell even Blackberry's latest efforts are damn good.


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## trparky (Jan 9, 2018)

But in the public eye Samsung may as well be synonymous with Android because of their massive marketing campaigns. If you ask anyone on the street what an Android phone is they would mention a Samsung of some kind. They have ripped Android away from Google and robbed them of their open platform.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 9, 2018)

GUYS which case i should go for Corsair 460X or 570X there are only 4 case brands are available in my country NZXT (S340 Elite or H440)  Cooler master Thermaltake and Corsair

Em build a new pc

1) i7 8700k

2)ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming

3)Deepcool Assassin 2 (already have)

4)Corsair LPX white 16GB (already have)

5)GTX 1070 (already have)

7)Cooler Master GX 750W (already have)

8)Samsung 850 Evo 250GB (already have)

9)WD Black 1TB (already have)


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 9, 2018)

trparky said:


> But in the public eye Samsung may as well be synonymous with Android because of their massive marketing campaigns.


That's a good point. Samsung is the Apple of the Android platform.


trparky said:


> They have ripped Android away from Google and robbed them of their open platform.


This I disagree with. Samsung tried and failed to do that with "Tizen". Samsung is big but Google is bigger and can, if they wanted, put Samsung in check.


Abdullah Aman said:


> GUYS which case i should go for 460X or 570X there are only 4 case brands are available in my country NZXT (S340 Elite or H440)  Cooler master Thermaltake and Corsair


Do you have links to those cases? Not familiar with the names..


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 9, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a good point. Samsung is the Apple of the Android platform.
> 
> This I disagree with. Samsung tried and failed to do that with "Tizen". Samsung is big but Google is bigger and can, if they wanted, put Samsung in check.
> 
> Do you have links to those cases? Not familiar with the names..




Corsair 460X or 570X


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 9, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> Corsair 460X or 570X


Ah ok. Both are really nice cases. Personally would go with the 570X as it allows more room for internal components, especially if you ever want to use liquid cooling.. My $0.02.


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## trparky (Jan 9, 2018)

Unfortunately no, Google has to play nice with Samsung or Samsung can call it quits and say that they're going to stop bundling their devices with the Google Play Services similar to how Amazon does it and Google can kiss 65% of their platform goodbye. This is what happens when a dominant player comes to the scene, Samsung has become the bully of the Android world.


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## notb (Jan 9, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> If you're talking about Samsung? Ok. But most of the smaller makers do things the way Google's vision was aiming at, and for the most part they do it right. Razer is the lastest example of getting it right. Blu, OnePlus, and many others get it right. If you don't like the "bastardized" versions of Android, there are a lot of high quality options out there to take advantage of. Hell even Blackberry's latest efforts are damn good.


So basically, you're mentioning companies that can't afford a lot of modification...
It's pretty much the opposite. Samsung is one of not many companies that do it right. Their phones are slightly cluttered with rubbish programs, but are also pretty nice to live with. HTC and LG used to be even better. Sony is OK.
All smaller manufacturers are just lazy. They don't offer a lot above the bare Android, but they usually manage to ruin the experience in some way.
Pure Android is not very good, not very friendly and not very visually attractive. It's just less stressing for the ARM - end of advantages.

It's really not a coincidence that we don't get Nexus phone any more. It's not what consumers wanted 


lexluthermiester said:


> Ah ok. Both are really nice cases. Personally would go with the 570X as it allows more room for internal components, especially if you ever want to use liquid cooling.. My $0.02.


He mentioned the air cooler that he's going to use.
And of course I'd recommend the smaller 460X because it allows more room for life. :-D
Seriously? A consumer CPU, 2 disks and a single GPU. It's mITX territory.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 9, 2018)

trparky said:


> Unfortunately no, Google has to play nice with Samsung or Samsung can call it quits and say that they're going to stop bundling their devices with the Google Play Services similar to how Amazon does it and Google can kiss 65% of their platform goodbye. This is what happens when a dominant player comes to the scene, Samsung has become the bully of the Android world.


But how many people would follow Samsung? The estimate of 65% is likely very generous. I certainly wouldn't. Not at all a fan of Amazon's app store either. Used it, and because of certain limitations and difficulties, stopped using it. Google Play is easy to use and has a ton more to it than Amazon. Samsung would have to start fresh, which again, they failed at with Tizen. Samsung might be a bit of a bully, but people are learning to think for themselves and are turning to other brands. Two years ago half the mobile device in my home were Samsung. Now there are only two left and neither of them are primary use devices. This is a growing trend in the US which is why Samsung has been pushing into other markets a bit harder.


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## trparky (Jan 9, 2018)

notb said:


> They don't offer a lot above the bare Android


But the more modifications you do to the base code to add stuff to it the harder it is to upgrade your Android distribution to the next version. It's a lot harder than just executing a Linux patch command with a DIFF file as an input. Considering how many changes have been done to Android by Samsung doing a blind DIFF file patch would probably result in a hell of a lot things getting broken. Every time Google comes out with a new version of Android, Samsung and the like have to essentially start from scratch with all of their modifications which is a royal pain in the ass. Hence the reason why I call for a skinning/theme and plugin architecture to allow companies such as Samsung to be able to do things without having to change the code, it just plugs in nice and clean with relatively no side-effects.

Yes I understand that Android is Linux... in a way, but in a way it isn't Linux. Sure, Android may have the Linux kernel as the base of the OS but the userland part (what people see) has all but been thrown out and replaced with what Google wants. Look at it this way... People have been saying "(Insert Year Here) will be the year of the Linux Desktop" and yet so many people claim it hasn't come true. Well I say it has, 2017 *was* the year of the Linux desktop, heck... 2016 was also. How so? The desktop was, you guessed it... Android. Android has essentially made Linux a viable platform for normal people to use. The year of the Linux desktop is already here, the distro is called Android.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 9, 2018)

Some of you should make your own threads instead of ruining every build thread with your bickering.

On the case front Op personally I quite like the corsair 570x all glass affair the nzxt cases are ok but not great imho , they're not the best for cooling (my mates isn't) and look a bit cheap once a bit aged.


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## Sasqui (Jan 9, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Some of you should make your own threads instead of ruining every build thread with your bickering.



Now someone looking for a case recommendation.  Thread = off the rails

Edit:  Sorry, didn't realize it was the OP asking about the case... Thread still off the rails though


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## trparky (Jan 9, 2018)

Can we get a moderator to split the Android posts out of this thread and into its own thread?


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## Vario (Jan 9, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> GUYS which case i should go for Corsair 460X or 570X there are only 4 case brands are available in my country NZXT (S340 Elite or H440)  Cooler master Thermaltake and Corsair
> 
> Em build a new pc
> 
> ...


The parts look good.  You should consider if you want to have tempered glass or no tempered glass, and whether you need an external 5.25 (like a optical drive or card reader) or not.  I think the 460x does not have tempered glass on the backside and the 570x does and the 460x is smaller than the 570x.  The 570x has a glass roof and the 460x does not.  The 460x is less expensive and the 570x is more expensive.


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## RCoon (Jan 9, 2018)

trparky said:


> Can we get a moderator to split the Android posts out of this thread and into its own thread?



Note: Unless you report a post or specifically tag a moderator, we have no idea when you're asking for stuff. We are but simple peons.

I recommend starting a separate thread, then report one of these posts and ask for a merge. I have priviliges in the Mobile Phone section but not here, so you'll have to wait for a Senior to do it.


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## erocker (Jan 9, 2018)

I'll just say, stay on topic.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 9, 2018)

RCoon said:


> Note: Unless you report a post or specifically tag a moderator, we have no idea when you're asking for stuff. We are but simple peons.
> I recommend starting a separate thread, then report one of these posts and ask for a merge. I have privileges in the Mobile Phone section but not here, so you'll have to wait for a Senior to do it.


Thread created. Folks let's move the Android Development discussion over here; https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/android-dev-tool-discussion.240467/


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## Vayra86 (Jan 9, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> Corsair 460X or 570X



Dude, first off - I love your patience with us. We really did derail your topic, sorry . Let's get back on to business.

- Did you pick a board yet? I noticed that you like the white parts and you want tempered glass cases. Have you seen this: https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-Z370-A/  It has good VRM, complete featureset, and your color setting, while not being ridiculously expensive. Also: Aura RGB stuff, which has good support everywhere.

- Between the 460X and 570X, keep in mind that both cases are full TG and as such will not be very silent cases. I'm also not sure about airflow, check that out since you are air cooling your rig, case airflow matters and those weak SP120's in the front won't do it. Case fans are also a big part of this. BeQuiet SilentWings / the ole' Noctua's will do this best in terms of moving air while being near inaudible - compare the stats of those fans versus the 120's and be amazed; they move *twice* as much air more silently. If you go for the 8700K route, definitely look into 2 extra case fans in the top (outtakes), it will have a positive impact on CPU temps. Also, place 140mm wherever you can instead of 120.

Another (potential) issue I'm seeing with these two cases is the amount of storage bays: only x4 / x5.


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## Final_Fighter (Jan 12, 2018)

did you order your hardware yet?


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 13, 2018)

Final_Fighter said:


> did you order your hardware yet?


yup just order i7 8700K ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming and RX 460

THX every one for help


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 19, 2018)

Core i7 8700k
Asus ROG Z370 F gaming 
Corsair H100i v2 liquid cooler
Samsung 850 Evo 250GB ssd
Corsair 16Gb 3200mhz
Wd black 1Tb hard driv
Corsair 460x case
GTX 1070FE
COOLER MASTER GX750W POWER SUPPL


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## Vario (Jan 19, 2018)

Looks cool! Do you like it?  No rear case exhaust fans?


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## notb (Jan 19, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> Corsair 460x case


Oh man... you're going to live with that shiny thing next to the LCD?
I seriously don't get why people want to harm themselves this way...

And what exactly cools the whole area above GPU? It looks like you have no forced airflow there - a recipe for tragedy...
A decent low-speed fan would to the job.


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## erocker (Jan 19, 2018)

notb said:


> Oh man... you're going to live with that shiny thing next to the LCD?
> I seriously don't get why people want to harm themselves this way...
> 
> And what exactly cools the whole area above GPU? It looks like you have no forced airflow there - a recipe for tragedy...
> A decent low-speed fan would to the job.


Stop being dramatic. It's fine.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 19, 2018)

just fitted one rear and top exhaust fan


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## Vario (Jan 19, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> just fitted one rear and top exhaust fan


Nice.   Also you can peel that plastic coating off the glass panels, it is just there to protect it during shipping and installation.  If you have any issues with cooling see if there are any additional exhaust holes and add more exhaust fans if so, I don't know that case well.


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## Abdullah Aman (Jan 19, 2018)

Vario said:


> Nice.   Also you can peel that plastic coating off the glass panels, it is just there to protect it during shipping and installation.  If you have any issues with cooling see if there are any additional exhaust holes and add more exhaust fans if so, I don't know that case well.


I can't do that because of H100i v2 pipes they are very hard and they will cover the fan all of the 5 fans are corsair SP fans


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## mcraygsx (Jan 19, 2018)

HD64G said:


> Until today the official facts we "know" are about this security flaw topic are:
> 
> 1) AMD didn't know of this flaw when Zen arch was finalised. It was discovered in early Q4-17.
> 2) AMD's CPUs are easily patchable (not even bios update needed) for the part of the flaw that are vulnarable without any decrease in performance until proved otherwise.
> ...




Well said, this is the time for Federal Agency to step in unless it was planned all along.


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## John Naylor (Jan 19, 2018)

As with the faux apple battery crisis, unfortunatly, poo slingin' is still dominating the discussion.  It's a major underatking but I expect we will see one pf the respected sites doing a before /  after for perhaps the last couple of generation CPUs from each camp.


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## ASOT (Jan 20, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> just fitted one rear and top exhaust fan



Actually is OK with it,no need for many fans or expensive and beefy AIO,have fun with it now... for long time


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## Space Lynx (Jan 20, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> After these security flaws should i go with Intel 8700k or AMD R 1700 how much it effect the performance or going to???



Just wait for Ryzen Refresh and x470 mobo's in April. thats what i am doing.


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## Atomic77 (Jan 20, 2018)

I would say wait things out a bit. Things change so fast you will be obsolete a few days later.


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## ASOT (Jan 20, 2018)

He got it guys,read before write something,i7 8700K


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## Vario (Jan 20, 2018)

Abdullah Aman said:


> I can't do that because of H100i v2 pipes they are very hard and they will cover the fan all of the 5 fans are corsair SP fans


You can put the fans on the outside of the case maybe so it is still exhaust but on the other side of the metal.  Or not worry about it if your temps are good.


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## theonek (Jan 20, 2018)

well, if someone keeps on his pc something like secret documents or passwords for his millions in bank or etc, there is a motive to be scared of theft. Otherwise, if the pc is for gaming or non-essential non-secretive work, there is no place for fear of anything.....


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