# How long can the "right" PSU last?



## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

I recently rebuilt my system and this makes the 5th system I've built around the same Corsair TX750w PSU.  This is probably the first generation of TX750.  It predates the Gold, Silver, and Bronze rating system that would come in to play years later. 

I originally bough this PSU sometime in 2007/8 (?)  and its powered and overclocked a Core2 system, two different Core2Q, one i5 2500k, and my current R7 2700x.  During that time it's ran an HD 3870, 2x 4850, hd 5870, hd 5970, hd 7950, gtx 1060, and now my gtx 1080. 

From all I can tell its still very stable and consistent.  I was trying to use HWinfo to report the voltages under load but It doesn't support my mobo.  I guess I'll load up the Asus Ai suite 3 later today and see if that works.  

I never have system shitdowns under load unless I'm testing a bad OC setting. Maybe my OC efforts would go further under a new PSU?

Just  curious if anyone else has had this sort of lifespan from a PSU


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## Vayra86 (Nov 7, 2018)

I think a reasonable time to expect out of a quality (high tier) PSU that is pushed over the years is 10 years, but caps do degrade over time, so if you push it hard later in its life, it may not do too well at peak loads. That is where headroom comes in.


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## sneekypeet (Nov 7, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> I recently rebuilt my system and this makes the 5th system I've built around the same Corsair TX750w PSU.  This is probably the first generation of TX750.  It predates the Gold, Silver, and Bronze rating system that would come in to play years later.
> 
> I originally bough this PSU sometime in 2007/8 (?)  and its powered and overclocked a Core2 system, two different Core2Q, one i5 2500k, and my current R7 2700x.  During that time it's ran an HD 3870, 2x 4850, hd 5870, hd 5970, hd 7950, gtx 1060, and now my gtx 1080.
> 
> ...



A good indicator of what to expect is the warranty period. While many products can outlast the warranty, the manufacturers will set that mark short of known failure rates to cover their butts when it comes to usage scenarios like this.

It could be fine for while, but without any voltages described, we have no idea if it is in spec other than it is able to run the hardware you listed.

For reference, I just looked, and if I had the right PSU, you have a 5-year warranty.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

sneekypeet said:


> A good indicator of what to expect is the warranty period. While many products can outlast the warranty, the manufacturers will set that mark short of known failure rates to cover their butts when it comes to usage scenarios like this.
> 
> It could be fine for while, but without any voltages described, we have no idea if it is in spec other than it is able to run the hardware you listed.



Totally makes sense.  It shipped with a 5year warranty. 

After work Ill do what I can to get the loaded 12v/5v measured and report back.


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## SoNic67 (Nov 7, 2018)

In average the electronics can last twice the warranty period (probabilities). If that PS was made in 2008, it's about time to worry about the actual performance (because issues with dried capacitors mainly).


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

SoNic67 said:


> In average the electronics can last twice the warranty period (probabilities). If that PS was made in 2008, it's about time to worry about the actual performance (because issues with dried capacitors mainly).



Other than instability and monitoring the output under load what else is there to lookout for?


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## sneekypeet (Nov 7, 2018)

I do agree a product can well outlast its warranty, but I will just talk about the obvious.

There has to be doubt in your mind about the PSU, for whatever reason.... hence the thread. Otherwise you would have just carried on to the next build.

Being the one thing that has to be right for all other things to work properly, and some doubt in my mind, I would replace it and demote it for testing other products if the need arises.

I feel like you are asking someone to tell you it is fine, to save some build costs, but again, I would replace it.


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## 27MaD (Nov 7, 2018)

Idk , i'll not trust a PSU that has been running on different systems for about 10 years , It might finger you at any moment.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 7, 2018)

i had an older Corsair unit, it was a Cx600. it lasted nearly 10 years. the caps finally bulged & blew when it was in its 5th or more PC. it did isolate the problem, & didnt take any other components with it. FWIW, that Corsair TX750w  from 2008-2009,   that is years after the 80+ rating system came into play, and right around the time the  80+ gold/etc came into play.

if yours does similar to my old corsair, id suggest you keep an eye on the Caps.

the thing below , SamXon


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## 27MaD (Nov 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> i had an older Corsair unit, it was a Cx600. it lasted nearly 10 years. the caps finally bulged & blew when it was in its 5th or more PC. it did isolate the problem, & didnt take any other components with it. FWIW, that Corsair TX750w  from 2008-2009,   that is years after the 80+ rating system came into pla, and right around the 80+ gold/etc came into play.


Tbh If it was me i wouldn't power up an expensive components with it.


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## silentbogo (Nov 7, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Just curious if anyone else has had this sort of lifespan from a PSU


Many. Had several Chieftec PSUs from 2003-2004 which are still chugging along. Some were so old, that they only had a 20-pin ATX connector with 4-pin CPU_PWR and not a single SATA. 
Those are only good for some random electronic projects, like tesla coils or big-ass LED curtains... and only if you are willing to take the risk of having a fire hazard nearby. 

My stepdads PC is powered with my old TT Toughpower (bought it in 2008 or so).
Also had an Athenapower 400W SFX PSU which I gave to my co-worker a few years back. It served well for over 5 years just in my household, and still held the spec better than some newer 80+ Bronze units.



TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Other than instability and monitoring the output under load what else is there to lookout for?


Temperature and noise. If your PSU was quiet before, and all of the sudden you start hearing high-pitched noise during startup or at high loads (except maybe high-FPS GPU testing), then it's probably time to take it to a doctor or replace it with a new unit. 
Personally I wouldn't use a PSU for more than the warranty period. Usually I switch my PSU every time I'm going for a major platform upgrade every 4-5 years, which is due pretty soon BTW. Gonna get me some Ryzen action and replace my 450W Seasonic with something slightly beefier.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

sneekypeet said:


> I do agree a product can well outlast its warranty, but I will just talk about the obvious.
> 
> There has to be doubt in your mind about the PSU, for whatever reason.... hence the thread. Otherwise you would have just carried on to the next build.
> 
> ...



No real doubts other than not being able to get a read on the output yet and that's just to satisfy the need to know.


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## SoNic67 (Nov 7, 2018)

Capacitor plague:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 7, 2018)

27MaD said:


> Tbh If it was me i wouldn't power up an expensive components with it.



  everybody has their own ideas, or levels of what they're willing to chance.  Before mine died ,it showed absolutely no signs of trouble, and when it did die ,all it did was just that ,it died & the computer power down ( essentially the absolute best a person can hope for during a power supply critical failure). I removed it ,put in a new one , & all was well (Aside from the smell).

Of course there is the possibility something different could've happened, but if we're planning for what could happen, in an attempt to avoid it ,that's a fine line between paranoia & carefullness. I say, the best we can do is buy the best components our budget allows, take good care of them, and replace them when needed. Ive had 3 Power supplies die on me personally, 2 were not new when i got them, none caused any damage to other component (apparently it can happen), or so ive been told, but its just not happened to me. & oddly enough, the longest lasting PSU ive owned , was a Corsair CX600 (what some call a VERY bad quality PSU)


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> everybody has their own ideas, or levels of what they're willing to chance.  Before mine died ,it showed absolutely no signs of trouble, and when it did die ,all it did was just that ,it died & the computer power down ( essentially the absolute best a person can hope for during a power supply critical failure). I removed it ,put in a new one , & all was well (Aside from the smell).
> 
> Of course there is the possibility something different could've happened, but if we're planning for what could happen, in an attempt to avoid it ,that's a fine line between paranoia & carefullness.




Once I monitor the output....assuming its within spec,  I'll pull the PSU and check the caps for peace of mind.


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## HTC (Nov 7, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Once I monitor the output....assuming its within spec,  *I'll pull the PSU and check the caps for peace of mind.*



Perhaps i should do the same since i too have that PSU model for roughly 10 years.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

HTC said:


> Perhaps i should do the same since i too have that PSU model for roughly 10 years.



This is the reply I was waiting for.  

Let me know if you do pull it out have a look.


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 7, 2018)

I agree the warranty period is a good indicator of the confidence the maker has in their product. But the warranty period is no guarantee  of longevity. I have seen budget, no-name generic PSUs last 10 years and longer in systems that have never been opened up for cleaning or anything else. They just keep chugging along. And then I have seen top tier units from the most reputable brands be DOA or die shortly thereafter. That's actually typical for electronics (at least that which is not abused). That is, it dies within a few hours of first power up, or it lasts for years and years.

Much depends on the power being fed to the power supply. If you are feeding your supply, good, clean stable power with a minimum number of surges and spikes, you have a good chance for a long life. But note one excessive surge or spike can ruin your day with even the best of supplies. 



TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Other than instability and monitoring the output under load what else is there to lookout for?


Not just under load - under all expected loads. Computer PSUs are routinely running with minimal loads at idle up to full 100 % loads when taxed. A supply should remain stable and provide a clean output under all expected loads. 

The allowed voltage variance is ±5%. So acceptable tolerance maximums:

12VDC ±5% = 11.4 to 12.6VDC
5VDC ±5% = 4.75 to 5.25VDC
3.3VDC ±5% = 3.14 to 3.47VDC​
But another important fact is ripple - unwanted AC riding the DC. But most users don't have the necessary test equipment or know-how to measure it. The maximum allowed is 120mV p-p (millivolt peak to peak) on the 12V rails, and 50mV p-p on the 5 and 3.3V rails. But frankly, any PSU that shows over 30mV would be down rated for poor ripple suppression. 

As far as the expressed concerns about using an older supply, IMO, those concerns are misplaced. While it is not unheard of, it is extremely rare for a failed PSU to cause collateral damage to connected components. Typically, when a PSU fails, it just stops outputting voltage. It does not suddenly push out 10,000V at 1000A! Nor do they suddenly explode in a ball of fire. 

If your PSU is sized with ample head room in the first place, is outputting within allowed tolerances, and if your computer is stable (no unexplained reboots, shutdowns, or freezes), then I see no problems continuing to use the PSU. 

Do you replace the PSU in your $2000 home theater receiver just because it is 5 years old or because the warrant ran out 2 years ago? Do you replace the PSU in your $2000 big screen TV because the TV is out of warranty? Both of those devices are very computerized these days. In fact today's TVs are computers. And a home theater receiver might be connected to $5000 speakers. And all those supplies have caps in them too. Yes, capacitor age but electrical engineers know this. And they compensate for it! 

And you can pull your PSU and "check" the caps. But do you know how? Yeah, you can look for leaks and bulging caps, but aging and failing caps don't always leak or bulge. In fact, most caps don't! If there is no apparent visible damage, the only way to check them is with a good capacitance checker - and that assumes you know what to expect.

It seems many seem to forget that computers are home electronics too, and follow the same Laws of Physics and characteristics as other consumer electronics. 

I have carried PSUs over to upgraded computers many times with no regrets. As long as it has the necessary horsepower and connectors, the fan bearings are not whining, coils are not whining and transformer plates are not buzzing, I say "use it".


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## dorsetknob (Nov 7, 2018)

sneekypeet said:


> A good indicator of what to expect is the warranty period. While many products can outlast the warranty, the manufacturers will set that mark short of known failure rates to cover their butts when it comes to usage scenarios like this.



See above
the minimum is what the Manufacture Specify s per the Warranty. your's might last for much longer (with luck it will)


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## John Naylor (Nov 7, 2018)

The original TX certainly was not what the V2 was but it wasn't garbage either.  Jonnyguru gave it an 8.5 perfomanmce ratings but back then he wasn't including quality ratings.  Tho, for some reason this referred more to labor quality in the "aesthetics" rating (9.5) than "looks".  This comments now appear in Build Quality section.  Warranty can be an indicator of quality but we have also seen PSU manufacturers take a PSU that nmaybe didn't do so well in reviews and slap long warranty period on it (EVGA B1 for example)

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=73

The V2 version picked up the performance to 9.5 but the Build Quality rating was only 8.5.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=230

Of course there is no reason to buy more PSU than you need and this of course will depend on how hard you drive your system.  Depending on that answer, these are my yardsticks.   Ripple and Noise are of course very important considerations but you won't be getting high JG performance numbers if ya haven't got that well covered.  Voltage regulation is important for OC'ing as all the component VRMs will be chasing the supply voltage and have to adapt o any changes.  So if the PSU can do better, that makes their job easier.... stable voltages => stable OC.

- For stock systems with no more than "factory" or light overclocking .... JG Performance and Build Quality Ratings  in the range of 8.5 - 9.0 and voltage regulation within 5% (ATX standard).

- For moderate overclocking .... JG Performance and Build Quality Ratings of 9.0 - 9.5  and voltage regulation within 2.5%.

- For serious overclocking .... JG Performance and Build Quality Ratings of 9.5 - 1.0 and voltage regulation within 1.0%.




Bill_Bright said:


> It seems many seem to forget that computers are home electronics too, and follow the same Laws of Physics and characteristics as other consumer electronics.



Good to have another brethern who applies physics to his electronic components.   I'm usually content when they follow the Laws of Electricty and Laws of Thermodynamics ... but if if not I'll subject them to the "Laws of Physics" (the science that studies matter  and its motion /  behavior through space and time) ad throw them against the wall  . .... sorry, but being a Noo Yawker, hard to resist the opportunity to do the "elbow tap to the rib" thing.


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 7, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> I'm usually content when they follow the Laws of Electricty and Laws of Thermodynamics ... but if if not I'll subject them to the "Laws of Physics"


The Laws of Physics encompass all the laws of the physical sciences, including those that dictate how electrons flow through conductors and how heat relates to other forms of energy. So I just say the Laws of Physics unless I am referring to some specific law, like Ohm's. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being self-taught. But I have found that many who have not be formally trained don't realize that computers are NOT very unique. In fact, the vast majority of the components that make up computers are used in many different types of electronics, just arranged a little differently. But an electron is still an electron and behaves the same whether flowing through a computer power supply, a TV, or a toaster oven. As a matter of fact, computer power supplies are just switching power supplies using in many electronics. And they don't get replaced just because they are x number of years old, or out of warranty. No need to do that for a computer either. 

My supplies generally get retired because the computer itself becomes obsolete and gets retired.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 7, 2018)

As mentioned earlier, the warrantee a retail manufacturer is willing to cover is a decent method of determining anticipated lifespan. 

 For me, I also look at what OEM components power/make up a given item. Since even the fanciest brand can use components that others do & charge much less.  Essentially it's best to inform yourself as much as possible


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> the warrantee a retail manufacturer is willing to cover is a decent method of determining anticipated lifespan.


That suggests planned obsolescence. I don't abide by that. The warranty period can be used as a rough guide to determine the minimum life expectancy - not how long it will last.


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## Mr.Scott (Nov 7, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I agree the warranty period is a good indicator of the confidence the maker has in their product. But the warranty period is no guarantee  of longevity. I have seen budget, no-name generic PSUs last 10 years and longer in systems that have never been opened up for cleaning or anything else. They just keep chugging along. And then I have seen top tier units from the most reputable brands be DOA or die shortly thereafter. That's actually typical for electronics (at least that which is not abused). That is, it dies within a few hours of first power up, or it lasts for years and years.
> 
> Much depends on the power being fed to the power supply. If you are feeding your supply, good, clean stable power with a minimum number of surges and spikes, you have a good chance for a long life. But note one excessive surge or spike can ruin your day with even the best of supplies.
> 
> ...


Right on.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 7, 2018)

Ai suite installed. All voltages appear nominal at load and idle. 

Like I said before I just wanted to post this thread to get some opinions. This PSU isn't whining, popping, squealing, fizzing, getting hot, or anything else of that nature.


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## RealNeil (Nov 7, 2018)

I wouldn't use it. I had four PSUs that were 4 and 5 years old and I started phasing them out about 6 months ago.
All are replaced with quality Gold rated PSUs now.

Years ago I had an Antec PSU go out in a new build. It was 6 months old at the time. It took my CPU, Motherboard, GPU, and RAM along for the ride. All of it was a total loss. Antec didn't want to do anything to help me with it, so they've been on my shit list ever since.

A PSU is the cornerstone of any PC build. This is where you never take chances, and you don't buy cheap either. Many of us feel this way. A lot of us know this from experience.


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## Mr.Scott (Nov 7, 2018)

OEM is more important than brand name. Every brand out there has good and bad units.
Knowledge is power, know what you're actually buying.

I still bench on a 10 year old Turbocool 1200. Thing is a tank.


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## Folterknecht (Nov 8, 2018)

Mr.Scott said:


> OEM is more important than brand name.



And that 's why you are supposed to buy Seasonic PSUs!


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## JalleR (Nov 8, 2018)

her is a Rereview of a 10year old PSU

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/05/31/thermaltake_toughpower_1200w_psu_10_years_later/


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## Thefumigator (Nov 8, 2018)

I would go for an 80 plus psu, just because of power efficiency. But that's me.


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## RCoon (Nov 8, 2018)

I have an Antec EarthWatts PSU that's 8 years old, and a SeaSonic M12II that's 7 years old, both still going in systems that are turned on nearly 24/7/365. There's no reason a top quality PSU shouldn't last for 10 years.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 8, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> That suggests planned obsolescence. I don't abide by that. The warranty period can be used as a rough guide to determine the minimum life expectancy - not how long it will last.



You're welcome to your opinion Bill, I'm not gonna argue with you. im certainly not interested in helping you understand warrantees.


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## Frick (Nov 8, 2018)

If you want to expand the term to any power supply the answer is decades. SMPS's are more complex than say a transformer and a graetz bridge but a properly built one could last decades as well. We're not talking consumer electronics here though, think military grade.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Nov 8, 2018)

I'm on year 10 on my main PC's PSU...
At most I've only ever used it at 50-60% of it's design potential and currently I am at about 40%.
I already have it's replacement and have had it for a few years.. I'm just not in a hurry to replace something unnecessarily.

Edit:
I think it was in 2016 I lost 2 PC's and a TV to a blown transformer..
One of the PC's was instant death and the other followed a week later.
I can't express enough how bad that sucked.
The PC that died a week after the first died when the PSU popped... It literally sounded like a wooden sauce spoon smacking a cast iron skillet.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 8, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm on year 10 on my main PC's PSU...
> At most I've only ever used it at 50-60% of it's design potential and currently I am at about 40%.
> I already have it's replacement and have had it for a few years.. I'm just not in a hurry to replace something unnecessarily.



Yup, smart choice. Why fix a part thats not broken?


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## dorsetknob (Nov 8, 2018)

Only Reason(s) to replace a good quality PSU are  
its fubarded or it does not have the correct power connections  ie enough GPU power connectors


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## Papahyooie (Nov 8, 2018)

I have a PSU that I built my first PC with in 2000... and that came out of a computer that was running windows 95.... 

Still going strong, though that particular machine doesn't get used much (old games, etc) It doesn't even have 24 pin ATX, only 20.


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 8, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> You're welcome to your opinion Bill, I'm not gonna argue with you. im certainly not interested in helping you understand warrantees.


 That's good. Because suggesting warranties are there to tell consumers when something will fail indicates a clear lack of understanding warranties. And your reply to jmcslob indicates that - not to mention is totally contradictory with that idea.


jmcslob said:


> I already have it's replacement and have had it for a few years.. I'm just not in a hurry to replace something unnecessarily.





jboydgolfer said:


> Yup, smart choice. Why fix a part thats not broken?


I agree 100%. But by your previous logic, it was "planned" to fail years ago when the warranty ran out, and so should have already been replaced due to imminent doom looming overhead!  

Warranties are not subscription based. They are not like software that, for example, stops upgrading if you don't renew your subscription, or reverts back to on-demand instead of real-time.

Sorry jmcslob. That's the problem with buying ahead and warranties. The warranty period begins on the date of purchase! Your brand new PSU may be out of warranty before you break the seal on the box. And according to one individual, its planned obsolescence clock has been ticking all this time!  

While planned obsolescence (where PSUs stop working after a specified warranty period) is not technically illegal, it is highly unethical. But more to the point, it is certainly silly to suggest it exists because (1) it would require all PSU makers to "conspire" to implement this "feature" and that *is* illegal. And (2) all it would take is one ethical company to refuse to comply with the "kill timer" feature to wipe out all their competition and take over the entire market.  Beyond that, _I'm certainly not interested in helping you understand_ "free markets" and "anti-trust" laws.  That's not the topic of this thread.


dorsetknob said:


> Only Reason(s) to replace a good quality PSU are
> its fubarded or it does not have the correct power connections ie enough GPU power connectors


Right. One other reason might be if you added additional hardware or upgraded your graphics solution and you now need a bigger PSU to support them. Not because the warranty ran out. But even then, the old PSU can go back on your shelf and be used in another build that has smaller power demands. No need to toss it in the trash bin.



RealNeil said:


> Years ago I had an Antec PSU go out in a new build. It was 6 months old at the time. It took my CPU, Motherboard, GPU, and RAM along for the ride. All of it was a total loss. Antec didn't want to do anything to help me with it, so they've been on my shit list ever since.


I sure cannot say I would not be upset too, but it really is not fair to hold a grudge years after this incident - not when there's no proof it was actually the PSU that took out the connected components. It worked for 6 months. If this happened the first time you powered up, I would suspect the PSU too. But after 6 months, it likely was Mother Nature or some other extreme power anomaly zapping the power grid,. When she's determined and targeting you, nothing can stop her. 

IMO, you should have filed a claim against your UPS maker (you had your computer on an UPS, right?). No?  Then you had it on a surge and spike protector, I hope, and you should have filed your claim against them. 

I am not aware of any PSU maker who will cover damage to connected devices.

I have used many Antecs in many builds. But like many brands (Corsair comes to mind), I avoid their entry-level lines. I have an EarthWatts 430W Green still chugging along (and in near silence too! ) after 9 years. And while the design of many Antec cases won't win any fashion awards, their designed function and quality construction tend to be top notch. Antec makes some great (and quiet) case fans too.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Nov 8, 2018)

@Bill_Bright
When I bought it I thought my PSU was the problem... It ended up being the mobo was warped.
The warping caused a solder to slightly separate on a cap in the bios area on a gigabyte z87...just above the x16 pcie slot.
I'm not exactly worried about the warranty expiring since it's a Seasonic Platinum.. It still has 8.5 years


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 8, 2018)

It is always good to have a spare PSU handy. If nothing else, you can use it to test fans and drive motors. But, also, since everything inside the computer case depends on good, clean, stable power, a good troubleshooting starting point is to swap in a known good PSU.

A warped motherboard is not good. That suggests a faulty case as it is the case's job to provide a perfectly flat mounting platform (on top of the standoffs) for the motherboard. Either your case had a factory defect, or somehow became "untrue" (bends were no longer exactly 90°) due to mishandling (fell off the FexEx truck during transport?). I received a Corsair 400 case that was not "true" . It would wobble because only 3 of the 4 feet touched the floor unless I pressed down on the case top with considerable weight. Since the box it came in was undamaged, I have to assume it left the factory that way. 

Since then, I always test cases to make sure they are "true" before mounting the motherboards. Any case that is not true may torque or warp a motherboard, or at least put undue and uneven stress on the motherboard mounting points. Either way, not good.


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## RealNeil (Nov 8, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> (you had your computer on an UPS, right?). No?  Then you had it on a surge and spike protector



There were two systems, side by side. Both of them were on the same house circuit. (both were on surge/spike protectors)
One had the Antec PSU and the other had a Seasonic PSU. Both systems had the same motherboards, CPUs, and memory. The GPUs and HDDs were close to the same specs in each box. 
The Antec blew and killed the system. The Seasonic box continued to work properly for years afterward.

That's proof enough for me. It hasn't happened again since I quit Antec. 

Once bitten, twice shy.


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 8, 2018)

RealNeil said:


> That's proof enough for me. It hasn't happened again since I quit Antec.


I learned long ago that when it comes to electronics, one event is not proof of anything. And for sure, one event with one sample of one model number is not indicative of a lousy brand. 

If it was, and I felt that way about all products, I would probably be sitting naked in an open field with no possessions whatsoever. For no brand of any product could be trusted.


RealNeil said:


> Once bitten, twice shy.


Yes, that is true. But only with the same dog.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 19, 2018)

27MaD said:


> Idk , i'll not trust a PSU that has been running on different systems for about 10 years , It might finger you at any moment.



Only cheap crap models that are made by sirfa, hipower, some cwt.

I agree with @dorsetknob 

Only replace when it fails or has signs of undesired performance.

All electronics are like this, some are doa, some last 2 seconds, some 30seconds, some an hour, some a day, weeks, 1 year, 20+ years, 50+ years.


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## erpguy53 (Nov 21, 2018)

I have an Antec Basiq BP500U for several years (I put it into one of my relative's PC replacing an old Bestec PSU) and the Antec BP500u 500w is still working great.  Also have an Enermax EG465P-VE FMA II (now a rare & hard to find PSU) on my HP m8417c computer and still going strong and on my other custom built PC w/ a Gigabyte board I have a Seasonic S12II-620 620w PSU also working well


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 21, 2018)

erpguy53 said:


> I have an Antec Basiq BP500U for several years (I put it into one of my relative's PC replacing an old Bestec PSU) and the Antec BP500u 500w is still working great.  Also have an Enermax EG465P-VE FMA II (now a rare & hard to find PSU) on my HP m8417c computer and still going strong and on my other custom built PC w/ a Gigabyte board I have a Seasonic S12II-620 620w PSU also working well



Iirc bestec used cwt, highpower/hec or sirfa.


----------



## Gasaraki (Nov 21, 2018)

My Enermax 850W from 2008 is still going strong. It's now powering my 2080 X58 just fine.


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## kapone32 (Nov 21, 2018)

I have used OCZ, Thermaltake and Corsair PSUs and my favourite is Corsair. I still have the TX850M from 2008 and a TX850M from 2017 and a HX1200! as my current PSU. All of them still work and the TX850M and HX1200! came with a 10 year warranty. The only PSU that died was a Ultra 750W LED from Tiger Direct (remember them) that lasted for 4 months. The LED fan still works though lol. The basic principle is that you never skimp on your PSU and get the best your money can afford. It honestly doesn't surprise me that your PSU is still viable.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 22, 2018)

After lots of testing, gaming, and overclocking setup ive decided to replace the psu. I think in a system with lower wattage needs this unit would still be fine. 

Im finding that under heavy load on both the cpu and gpu the system is becoming less and less stable.  

Initially with this cpu I was running a gtx1060 with less case fans. Now that ive added several more rgb higher rpm fans and a swapped for a gtx1080 the system isn't behaving like it should. 

Overclocks that were stable are no longer stable and whats stable in something like cinebench isnt stable in BFV or other cpu heavy games. 

Psu calculators put my system draw at 650-670w. I dont think this unit is able to supply that much powere as reliably anymore... sure for few minutes but not sustained. 

If i kept the 1060 and less non rgb fans I dont think I'd ever have noticed


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## puma99dk| (Nov 22, 2018)

Doesn't help if you buy a bigger watts psu then needed so it can actually last a longer time because it will never be under 90-100% load?

I am not sure where I picked this up.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 22, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Psu calculators put my system draw at 650-670w.


The only calculator worth using is the eXtreme Power Supply Calculator. This is for 3 distinct reasons.


They have a full time dedicated staff researching components,
The calculator is extremely flexible, providing many options - instead of guessing or padding for what they think you might have,
It is the most conservative.
#3 is probably the most important. All PSU calculators pad the results a little to avoid recommending an underpowered supply. But, by far, the eXtreme Outer Vision PSU calculator is the most accurate because it is so flexible with so many input and utilization options.

With that in mind, I came in no where near 650W. I topped out at 458W with a recommended supply of 508W.  You have not included your full specs so I guessed and added my own padding by saying you run at 100% CPU utilization, have 4 x 140mm fans, 2 x 8GB RAM, and I entered 16 hours per day for utilization and gaming.

So I don't know how you came up with 650W - 670W.



puma99dk| said:


> Doesn't help if you buy a bigger watts psu then needed so it can actually last a longer time because it will never be under 90-100% load?


Yeah, not really true. But buying too big is still not the best idea as PSUs (even 80 PLUS PSUs) tend to be most efficient when running ~50% loads. When under utilized, they are least efficient, but that does not affect longevity.

Running at 90-100% is not bad, but can affect longevity because the supply will be subject to higher temps for longer periods of time. While those temps should not be excessive, it is still long term exposure to higher temps that might increase aging.

Another downside to running at 90 - 100% for long durations is that likely will cause the fan to run faster increasing wear on the bearings and more importantly (to me, at least) is increased fan noise. And I hate fan noise.


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## puma99dk| (Nov 22, 2018)

I was more thinking about if you need like 500-650watt for the whole system and you end up buying like 750-850watt wouldn't that be matter not to really pushing it to 100% all the time under load?


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 22, 2018)

@Bill_Bright Moah fans.. all the HDDS


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 22, 2018)

puma99dk| said:


> I was more thinking about if you need like 500-650watt for the whole system and you end up buying like 750-850watt wouldn't that be matter not to really pushing it to 100% all the time under load?


I'm a little confused. You said in your last post, "Doesn't help if you buy a bigger watts psu then needed...".

Now you seem to be saying it does help.

You definitely want to buy a supply that is bigger than you need. Some headroom is always advisable - especially when the load is constantly varying as happens with computer loads.

@TRIPTEX_CAN - well your screen shot must not show everything because I'm a little off still, but clearly your CPU clocks and voltages are making a HUGE difference. Plus the extra drives and fans. If your numbers there are correct, the 670W you mentioned above would be too light. In fact, the 750W you had before would be too light when the system was really taxed.

https://outervision.com/b/oMgqws


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 22, 2018)

@Bill_Bright I had picked the wrong fans.

This 750w just isn't enough for heavy use even if it was new I think it would struggle. https://outervision.com/b/ZAjTfR


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## AlienIsGOD (Nov 22, 2018)

Had a corsair hx 1000 last a solid 8 years, only replaced it cause I wanted a gold efficiency rated psu. It still runs in a friends machine with my old i5 2400


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 22, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> I think it would struggle


All PSUs weaken with age. While it is not common for all components inside your computer to demand peak power at the same time, it can happen and must be planned for. So it is certainly possible there could be times when your 750W was stressed.


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## claylomax (Nov 22, 2018)

I'm still using my Antec Signature 650w from 2009.


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 22, 2018)

Yeah, I've got a couple old Antecs chugging along too. They used to be my go-to brand.


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## puma99dk| (Nov 22, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I'm a little confused. You said in your last post, "Doesn't help if you buy a bigger watts psu then needed...".
> 
> Now you seem to be saying it does help.
> 
> ...



I am not talking like "yeee" 1000watt/1kw for that matter just like a couple of 100watts more so there will always be a headroom so you never max it out.


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## FreedomEclipse (Nov 22, 2018)

No one can ever tell. I have had a HX1050 as well as an AX8 60 go bad on me. Neither of those were cheap PSUs back in the day. The AX series still aren't cheap either. 

Both PSUs weren't being run anywhere close to their limits at the time also


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 22, 2018)

puma99dk| said:


> just like a couple of 100watts more so there will always be a headroom so you never max it out.


I always buy an extra 100w or so because in 3 or 4 years, I might buy a bigger graphics card or put that PSU in a different computer. 

Really, the only thing you hurt by buying too big is your wallet.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 22, 2018)

puma99dk| said:


> I was more thinking about if you need like 500-650watt for the whole system and you end up buying like 750-850watt wouldn't that be matter not to really pushing it to 100% all the time under load?



Its a buffer, a psu will only use what is needed. I got the one I did for future upgrades, a PSU and case are the 2 things that shouldnt need upgrading on every build.

Im hoping to grab a TR 3950X or 3970WX with Navi+ next year. To me 16GB is plenty of ram.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 23, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> a PSU and case are the 2 things that shouldnt need upgrading on every build.


I agree 100% but will go one further. A quality PSU and quality case form the foundation for a computer that will support years of "evolving" upgrades - not just total rebuilds - and that's a very good thing. 

HOWEVER - because the case may be sitting in your computer room for years, aesthetics matter. For that reason, I avoid cases with fancy facades that may go "out of style" next year. I like plain, "classic but elegant", timeless cases - most recently those from Fractal Design. Plus, a plain front is so easy to keep clean compared to many cases that have all sorts of cracks and crevices, ridges and indentations to collect dust.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 23, 2018)

I was happy to get 10 years out of that PSU.  I also bought my case at roughly the same time and  instead of replacing it Ill be modding it to keep things interesting. Id be happy to have it forever until it physically no longer supports the hardware I install into it.   

Im planning on painting it and modifying the side panel to keep pace with asthetics and trend... because that's important.


----------



## phill (Nov 23, 2018)

I've still got my original AX 1200 units that powered my X58 rigs, they have been solid.  Some have been used for mining so 800w constant pull and now they are sat crunching with WCG   It's using about 120w at the moment  

They have been completely solid PSUs, very happy.  When I bought some 1200i's I was less than amused because all of the ones I bought, died..  Very unimpressed..  Not bought another Corsair PSU since... I've gone with EVGA G+/P2/T2 units. 

I did have a PC & Cooling 1200w unit, but that died for some reason, I've no idea why..  I'm glad it never took my X58 system with it, I would have been very upset...

That said now, anything after 5 years, I'd probably put in something that will just plod along, so low usage.  I never take a chance with PSUs, Gold being the minimum standard I'll aim for...


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 23, 2018)

phill said:


> I never take a chance with PSUs, Gold being the minimum standard I'll aim for...


Just remember that being "Gold" does not, in any way, suggest the supply is more reliable or even of better "quality" than Silver, Bronze or White. 80 PLUS certs are not certs for quality, just efficiency.


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## phill (Nov 23, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Just remember that being "Gold" does not, in any way, suggest the supply is more reliable or even of better "quality" than Silver, Bronze or White. 80 PLUS certs are not certs for quality, just efficiency.



Nothing is guaranteed  in life but if you go with a decent brand and not middle of the road units, hopefully you'll get a good one.  No complaints at all from me about EVGA at all with the units I have.  I'm waiting on a few more units to be delivered so I can comment on those when I do


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## John Naylor (Nov 23, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> You're welcome to your opinion Bill, I'm not gonna argue with you. im certainly not interested in helping you understand warrantees.



Agreed ... for a time EVGA was offering a 10 year warranty on the B / B1 series PSUs.  While it's certainly true that a longer warranty will be put on a higher quality component, after ll better quality parts should last longer.   But let's face it warrantees are basically insurance policies.   All quality levels fall on a curve, if you want to compete say and match your competitors  $100 product with  5 year warranty, take your 3 year warranty $70 product and add $15 to the price to cover the greater anticipated failure rate.



phill said:


> Nothing is guaranteed  in life but if you go with a decent brand and not middle of the road units, hopefully you'll get a good one.  No complaints at all from me about EVGA at all with the units I have.  I'm waiting on a few more units to be delivered so I can comment on those when I do



My son is on his 2nd G2 1000.   It was the only thing in the PC that you could hear as fan noise was loud.   After doing some seraching, it disn't seem to affect all units tho a significant portion of them ... well of course it's significant if you have one .  It does after 18 months and the RMA replacement is again the noisiest thing on the PC.  But like anything else.... Does EVGA make a) great PSUs b) good PSUs c) average PSUs or d) Crappy PSUS... again the two correct answers are e)   They don't make any PSUs and f) the ones they do selll incluse a thru d




puma99dk| said:


> Doesn't help if you buy a bigger watts psu then needed so it can actually last a longer time because it will never be under 90-100% load?
> 
> I am not sure where I picked this up.



Yes it is a good idea, a PSU is most efficient at 50% load, so year, the PSU will be a) more efficient  b) will produce less heat  c) will produce less noise and heat.   I just add up all the component wattages (with OC) ... simple math, don't need an online calculator and than multiply 1.25 to 1.50




FreedomEclipse said:


> No one can ever tell. I have had a HX1050 as well as an AX8 60 go bad on me. Neither of those were cheap PSUs back in the day. The AX series still aren't cheap either.
> 
> Both PSUs weren't being run anywhere close to their limits at the time also



The HX850 was a great one ... HX1050 and 1150 mot so much.




Bill_Bright said:


> Yeah, I've got a couple old Antecs chugging along too. They used to be my go-to brand.



I consider the Antec CP 850 as probably the best Pricce / Performance buy on a PSU that I ever made.




Bill_Bright said:


> All PSUs weaken with age. While it is not common for all components inside your computer to demand peak power at the same time, it can happen and must be planned for. So it is certainly possible there could be times when your 750W was stressed.



I have every system plugged into a "kil-o-watt" meter

http://www.p3international.com/products/P4400.html




Mr.Scott said:


> OEM is more important than brand name. Every brand out there has good and bad units.
> Knowledge is power, know what you're actually buying.



Not quite ... OEM name isn't worth much without knowing what platform the OEM used.   Like vendors, OEMs make products to fit various price niche's from ow budget to enthusiast... for example.... if the OEM is Superflower, are we talking Golden Green or Leadex Platinum ... just like if you were buying Seasonic , are we talking Focus Gold of Focus Gold Plus ?




RealNeil said:


> The Antec blew and killed the system. The Seasonic box continued to work properly for years afterward.
> That's proof enough for me. It hasn't happened again since I quit Antec.  Once bitten, twice shy.



You should be aware that 1)  Antec doesn't make PSUs  and 2) Seasonic makes a lage portion of Antec PSUs.

Antec Neo Eco 400/620,  Antec High Current Gamer  400-620 , Antec High Current Gamer 750M/850M, Antec TruePower Classic.  Antec EDGE 550-750, Antec EDGE 850 and others... also made many other solid PSUs XFX XTR2 Corsair AX 760-860, XFX XTS2 , XFX XTI , XFX ProSeries 1050/1250 ,  XFX XTR 1050, Corsair HX650 

The Antec High Current Gamer (M) 400-620 is the same PSU as the SeasonicM12II Bronze


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 23, 2018)

puma99dk| said:


> Doesn't help if you buy a bigger watts psu then needed so it can actually last a longer time because it will never be under 90-100% load?
> 
> I am not sure where I picked this up.



The longest lasting psu ive owned was   Just under its rated wattage.  Id guess it used > 80% most of the time. But id not buy based on any experience that is anecdotal, since if i were to, id always buy low wattage , cheaper psu's , as they have lasted the longest for me.


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## John Naylor (Nov 23, 2018)

Couple of things to consider:

1.  The higher the % of rated, the more noise

2.  The higher the % of rated, the more heat

3.  The higher the % of rated, the less efficiency and the greater your power bill.   The extra cost to go bigger can pay for itself with power savings.

4.  The higher the % of rated, the more electrical noise and less voltage stability, which in turn means the greater the chance that your OC will be impacted (not in a good way).


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## sixor (Nov 23, 2018)

2008, ocz silentstream 600w, killed by a 4830 with a c2d stock

2008 corsair vx550, heavy oced 3570k and 965be with 4830 gtx460 270x 580x, still strong, with 3xhdd + 3xssd


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 23, 2018)

All blanket statements are wrong. 



John Naylor said:


> 1. The higher the % of rated, the more noise


Maybe. Depends on the fan and how it is controlled. If it is already spinning full speed at 70% load, it is not going to spin faster (thus louder) at 90% load. And of course, there are passively cooled PSUs too.



John Naylor said:


> 2. The higher the % of rated, the more heat


Maybe. 90% percent efficiency is 90% efficiency. Period. If your computer demands 300W, and your supply is rated at 90%, that supply will pull from the wall 333W and waste the same amount of energy (in the form of heat) regardless if the supply is a 500W supply @ 2/3 load or 1000W supply at 1/3 load. It is the exact same 33W of wasted energy.



John Naylor said:


> 3. The higher the % of rated, the less efficiency and the greater your power bill.   The extra cost to go bigger can pay for itself with power savings.


Maybe. 80 PLUS white, for example is rated at 80% efficiency whether running at 20%, 50% or 100% loads. 

As for greater power bills, you are talking cents per year! A Gold rated supply is rated at 90% efficiency with 50% load and 87% efficiency at 100% load. That's just 3% difference!

That means if your computer demands 300W, the supplies will pull from the wall 345W for the 87% supply vs 333W for the 90% supply. 12W difference and that is only when the computer is up and running and demanding that much power. Most computers sit near idle (or even off!) more hours per day so it would take years to "pay for itself" in energy savings. 

But don't take my word for it. Use this Electricity Bill Calculator yourself. Check your power company to see what they charge. For me, OPPD charges 10.06 cents/kWh. I think 10 hours per day, 365 days per year is more than fair to make the point. That works out to a budget busting $4.41 cents per year savings. Now is that Gold supply really going to pay for itself over a quality Bronze any time soon? Nope.



John Naylor said:


> 4. The higher the % of rated, the more electrical noise and less voltage stability,


Oh? Says what? With two PSUs running at identical efficiencies (or even 5% different efficiencies) what says the one running at 80% loads will be less stable and produce more noise than the PSU running at 60%? I would like to see your source for that. 

Even a PSU running at 100% of its rated load "should" be totally stable with total noise and ripple values properly suppressed to within specified tolerances. The problem there is, of course, there is no wiggle room left. So I'll give you that with 100% loads. But that's not what you said.


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## Aquinus (Nov 23, 2018)

sneekypeet said:


> For reference, I just looked, and if I had the right PSU, you have a 5-year warranty.


When I bought my Seasonic 1000w Platinum, the 8 year warranty is what screamed to me "quality." You don't put a warranty like that on a product unless you're damn sure it's going to last and so far, mine has. I also knew that I was going to be demanding a lot from it since when I bought it, I was running two 6870s in crossfire and I knew that I wanted to overclock all of it. It paid off because not only has it lasted almost 7 years, it's still going to be good for my upgrade to a Vega 64.


Bill_Bright said:


> Maybe. 90% percent efficiency is 90% efficiency. Period. If your computer demands 300W, and your supply is rated at 90%, that supply will pull from the wall 333W and waste the same amount of energy (in the form of heat) regardless if the supply is a 500W supply @ 2/3 load or 1000W supply at 1/3 load. It is the exact same 33W of wasted energy.


Maybe is a good word to put there because efficiency actually varies depending on how much load you're putting on the PSU as well as its capacity. Generally speaking, efficiency tends to drop off when you're dealing with <20% of capacity or >80% of capacity with 50% typically being a sweet spot. So, a 1000w at 300w might actually have worse efficency than it would on a 500w supply with the same 80-plus rating. Big keyword is *might*.

Efficiency doesn't really say anything about what the PSU can output, but it say something about how much heat it's going to emit when running under load. I just wanted to point that out. I agree with just about everything you said, but I wanted to add a little bit of clarity on this particular point.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2018)

puma99dk| said:


> I am not talking like "yeee" 1000watt/1kw for that matter just like a couple of 100watts more so there will always be a headroom so you never max it out.



I like my PSUs in major overkill wattages. Its not like it costs you that much more and if you consider a quality PSU will last 10 years, there are several reasons to do so:

- Silence. PSUs that can easily supply the required power run less hot, which means idle fan or low RPM. PSU fans tend to be quite noisy, and can easily drown out case/CPU fan. Very often overlooked.
- Future plans. Who knows what I'll want for my next build, maybe SLI will get back in fashion, just to name an item that would require more power.
- Degradation. Headroom counters degradation and makes it more likely the PSU will last under sustained loads later in its life. Hitting peak load is nice for shitty OEM boxes, but not in my rig. If you scale on hitting peak load, you're doing it wrong.

Running my ~400W rig on an EVGA G2 750W. No regrets. Its way too much, but for 10-15 bucks over the price of a 'sufficient' 550-500W unit, why not? 30-40% headroom is very nice to have.


----------



## ArbitraryAffection (Nov 23, 2018)

To the original question: Honestly I keep PSUs as long as their warranty period. That's as long as the manufacturer is confident in the unit's ability to operate. Most decent units have at least 7 years.


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 23, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> but it say something about how much heat it's going to emit when running under load. I just wanted to point that out. I agree with just about everything you said, but I wanted to add a little bit of clarity on this particular point.


Well, I did note the wasted energy is seen "in the form of heat". So I think we are on the same page.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 24, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I agree 100% but will go one further. A quality PSU and quality case form the foundation for a computer that will support years of "evolving" upgrades - not just total rebuilds - and that's a very good thing.
> 
> HOWEVER - because the case may be sitting in your computer room for years, aesthetics matter. For that reason, I avoid cases with fancy facades that may go "out of style" next year. I like plain, "classic but elegant", timeless cases - most recently those from Fractal Design. Plus, a plain front is so easy to keep clean compared to many cases that have all sorts of cracks and crevices, ridges and indentations to collect dust.



Thats why i go EATX compatible


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 24, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Thats why i go EATX compatible


 My back hurts just thinking about lugging a monster EATX case outside for cleaning. I have found a nice mid tower case and standard ATX board still supports more drives and more expansion cards than I will ever need while still providing lots of cooling options and still be fairly easy to lift and carry outside. 

Fortunately, since I only buy filtered cases, breaking them down and lugging them outside to blast with the air compressor is no longer a frequent requirement. 

Another thought - at least with my main computer - it sits on a shelf under my desk and the power and reset switches, audio and USB ports are on top of the case. That was a purchase requirement so I didn't have to get on my hands and knees to see to push a button or connect a USB thumb drive.

My current Fractal Design R4 is ~18 inches tall and gives me plenty of room under my desktop to see and reach those ports and support my longest thumb drive. EATX cases can easily be 3 or 4 inches taller. That would cause a problem - for me anyway.


----------



## Kamgusta (Nov 24, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> I recently rebuilt my system and this makes the 5th system I've built around the same Corsair TX750w PSU.  This is probably the first generation of TX750.  It predates the Gold, Silver, and Bronze rating system that would come in to play years later.
> 
> I originally bough this PSU sometime in 2007/8 (?)  and its powered and overclocked a Core2 system, two different Core2Q, one i5 2500k, and my current R7 2700x.  During that time it's ran an HD 3870, 2x 4850, hd 5870, hd 5970, hd 7950, gtx 1060, and now my gtx 1080.
> 
> From all I can tell its still very stable and consistent.  I was trying to use HWinfo to report the voltages under load but It doesn't support my mobo.  I guess I'll load up the Asus Ai suite 3 later today and see if that works.


You can use an electrician multimeter and check a molex connection.



TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Maybe my OC efforts would go further under a new PSU?


No.



TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> Just  curious if anyone else has had this sort of lifespan from a PSU


I have PSUs with 20+ years of life still functioning. My current PSU is powering a Ryzen 2 system and has 10+ years (and works nearly 24/24). Some years ago I replaced its fan because the bearings weared out and became noisy. Current fan is an Arctic Cooling one with fluid dynamic bearings, so it will last at least 10 another years (24/24).

I will never replace my PSU unless it fries or AMD/Intel force me to do it.

PSUs have plenty of sensors inside (Over Current Protection, Over Power Protection, Short Circuit Protecion, Over Voltage Protection, Under Voltage Protection, Over Temperature Protection, Surge & Inrush Protection), so when it fails (if it fails) it won't harm anything.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 24, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> My back hurts just thinking about lugging a monster EATX case outside for cleaning. I have found a nice mid tower case and standard ATX board still supports more drives and more expansion cards than I will ever need while still providing lots of cooling options and still be fairly easy to lift and carry outside.
> 
> Fortunately, since I only buy filtered cases, breaking them down and lugging them outside to blast with the air compressor is no longer a frequent requirement.
> 
> ...



Aerocool Xpredator Blue here


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 24, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Aerocool Xpredator Blue here


Nice. Heavy, but nice.


----------



## RealNeil (Nov 25, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Yes, that is true. But only with the same dog.



Antec is the dog here,.....


----------



## dorsetknob (Nov 25, 2018)

Gigabyte  GE-P610A-C2    *Bought 30 Sept 2010
Semi Dead this Month..................(R.I.P till i can post mortem it. >> and maybe Dr Frankinstein it  ).*


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## Vayra86 (Nov 25, 2018)

We can turn this into a Dead PSU record thread. When your PSU dies, ppst here with estimated date of purchase. Nice bit of data


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## bonehead123 (Nov 25, 2018)

10 yrs would be the very longest I would trust an old psu with powering any current rig with modern parts....

Maybe for a back-up rig with older parts,  yea, but given the prices of new cpu's, gpu's, ram etc....I would not risk it, but that's just ME 

I have a 6 yr old Corsair CX500 that is showing signs of dying (varying voltages, unstable fans etc), so it will most likely be headed to the scrap pile soon....


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Nov 25, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> We can turn this into a Dead PSU record thread. When your PSU dies, ppst here with estimated date of purchase. Nice bit of data



I like this idea.


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## Flyordie (Nov 25, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> The only calculator worth using is the eXtreme Power Supply Calculator. This is for 3 distinct reasons.
> 
> 
> They have a full time dedicated staff researching components,
> ...



I used this calculator and it recommended a 1,600W PSU for my rig. 

I am running an 850W Seasonic X Series and the fan barely spins under load.

https://outervision.com/b/WK14nI

My Power costs run $0.07/Kwh


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 25, 2018)

Flyordie said:


> I used this calculator and it recommended a 1,600W PSU for my rig.


That link says 1031W, not 1600. Don't go by the advertised suggested EVGA. They have to make money to support the site and research some how. Go by the actual results as seen in your link. I just moved your CPU utilization to 90% and Computer utilization to 8 hours per day and the wattage came down to 828W with 878W recommended. But the same 1600W Supernova comes up in the ad recommended. So again, just go by the actual results.

The fact you are using a 850W supply simply suggests your CPU and GPU are never maxed out at the same time. That's normal but calculators cannot assume that will never happen. They have to assume 100% disk and RAM utilization might happen, along with maximum CPU and GPU, all while the fans are spinning at full speed too. It would be very bad publicity if they recommended too small of a supply. 

But the fact is, even if we do our own homework and research all the components on our own, we also have to assume there might be a moment when all devices pull maximum power. So frankly, you are risking a sudden shutdown or reboot with that supply now.


----------



## John Naylor (Nov 26, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> All blanket statements are wrong.
> 
> Maybe. Depends on the fan and how it is controlled. If it is already spinning full speed at 70% load, it is not going to spin faster (thus louder) at 90% load. And of course, there are passively cooled PSUs too.
> 
> ...



No they are not and your postulations are easily disproved.

Ok, I didn't think we needed to add "all other things being equal", "not including really crappy stuff"  and "in general" to every post but, , that was the intent... I have never seen a PSU spin *at 100% at across all loads*... Fans tyically step up in segments, so they might be oiff at up to 50% load, step \up at 60% agaun at 70% but not 70 thruy 100% ... at least not on any IO have used.  I guess its possible but I doubt you can find me an instance where  two high quality models of the model series spin the same rpm  *over the full range in question*... so until ya can support the statement over the full range, Im saying ya haven't made ya case.

2.  Bollocks.  Wow ...didn't think this would stump anybody or that I would have to explain what "% of  rated load means".   % of Rated Load = PSU Output / Rated Load ...  its significance is in determining efficiency under the 80 Plus standard.   No, .... A PSU rated at 90% at 50% load *absolutely does not* have the same efficiency at 20%, 100%, 1/3 and 2/3 loads.  

First of, I am assuming you weren't talking about a 300 watt Titanium PSU at full load.  So let's use Gold as it represents a more typical scenario  ....  first problem is the 300 watt Gold PSU is not 90% but 87% efficient  at 100% load.  A Gold rated PSU needs to have 87% at 20% load, will peak at 90% efficiency at 50% load and return to 87% at 100% load.  Therefore it would draw 333 watts *only* if it was a 600 watt PSU.

Lets do the math ... For calcs with *, the % is iterpolated.

  300 watt Gold PSU = 87.0% efficiency at 100% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 344.83 watts from the wall = 44.83 watts wasted as heat
  500 watt Gold PSU = 89.4% efficiency at   60% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 335.57 watts from the wall = 35.57 watts wasted as heat *
  600 watt Gold PSU = 90.0% efficiency at   50% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 333.33 watts from the wall = 33.33 watts wasted as heat
1000 watt Gold PSU = 88.0% efficiency at   30% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 340.91 watts from the wall = 40.91 watts wasted as heat *
1500 watt Gold PSU = 87.0% efficiency at   20% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 344.83 watts from the wall = 44.83 watts wasted as heat

So here's another "No". * Your assertion that "It is the exact same 33W of wasted energy. " is blatantly false.  Statement 2 holds as true*

3.  You understood from above issue that we were talking about PSU sizes, but for reasons I don't quite understand, for power cost you went off tangent and mixed in 80 plus ratings   Let's call this subject 3.A.  The argument that "_Now is that Gold supply really going to pay for itself over a quality Bronze any time soon ?"_  is non responsive.    The cost difference between Bronze and Gold is not relevant when we are talking about Gold PSUs of different sizes  and % load ?  But let's call\ this issue 3.B

3.a.  First I thing we have to define the original statement _"The higher the % of rated, the less efficiency and the greater your power bill.   The extra cost to go bigger ****can*** pay for itself with power savings. *"_

600 watt Gold PSU = 90% efficiency at   50% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 333.33 watts from the wall = 33.33 watts unnecessarily purchased
300 watt Gold PSU = 87% efficiency at 100% load ... To put out 300 watts, it pulls 344.83 watts from the wall = 44.83 watts unnecessarily purchased

Note that I did not say _*"***will*** pay for itself with power savings*_*.  * (and this is true between Gold and Bronze as well as % of rated load).   Many factors contribute to whether it will or it won't.   These include:

a)  What country you live in (Europe costs are as much as twice that of highest US costs
b)  Where you live with respect to urban, suburban or rural areas
c)  Proximity to inexpensive power (hydro) versus fossil fuels
d)  Distance from plant to delivery point (utilities "lease" power lines from transmission line owners (can be $0.11 per kw)
cost of electricity (regionally dependent)
e)  Hours per day ... miners have multiple high power systems running 24/7.
f)  Power draw of system
g) How long you keep the system, didn't you say cheap crappy PSUs can last 10 years ?
h) Sales, rebates and promotions

For you positions to be valid, both the "% of load one" (3.A) and the "80 Plus rating one" (3.B) there most be no circumstance where it can't be true.  This as we will see below is easily done.  However, the 3% difference you alleged for Bronze versus Gold is an obvious misrepresentation.  The appropriate difference is 5%.

I spent a good part of my life running a municipal power utility which included supervising the power plant operations, distribution system, and customer billing.    The math is simple so no need for a calculator.   I'll use your chosen example with regard to usage .... but, as the word ***can*** includes various possibilities, and avoiding extremes such as including 24/7 usage at max power miners , I'll use some more realistic numbers where appropriate:

a)  System Size:  300 watts seems a bit weak for an enthusiast system, I'll use my own ....  typically it pulls 688 watts from the wall and has a 1250 watt PSU
b)  I'll use your 10 hours per day
c)  You used 10.6 cents per kw, I pay $0.24 ... again, that's why I said "can", not "will"
d) You said _"I have seen budget, no-name generic PSUs last 10 years"_ , so we'll use your 10 years

So let's do the math ...

- My box pulls 688 watts from the wall  .... which @ 90% ~ 619 watts of output .... which in turn @ 87% ~ 712 watts from wall.   712 - 688 = 24 watts

-My 24 watts x your 10 hours x 365 / 1000 ... That's 87.6 Kw-hrs per year
-My 24 cents per kw hour 87.6 kw-hrs = $21 a year

All costs per newegg

Seasonic Prime Gold1300 = $139 ($20 rebate)
Seasonic Prime Gold 650 = $107

That $32 is still a lot less than $84 I pay at 40% of your usage.   Even at your low cost for power and tiny load, you'd be making a profit after 7.3 years.  However it clearly **can ** pay for itself because your personal situation does not represent the entirety ofof the civilized world or even the US.  Everyone does not have your low power costs, I pay 24 cents per kw/ hr, those in other countries pay almost twice that ... and not everyone uses a 300 watt systems, safe to say the majority of this audience does not.   With an investment of $32 and a return of $21 per year that's a payback period of just 1.5 years which certainly qualifies as "soon".  * Your assertion that it can not be done has therefore been disproved. * *  Statement 3.A holds as true*


3. B  Now lets try the Bronze / Gold claim....

- Box pulls 688 watts from the wall  .... Gold @ 90% ~ 619 watts of output  close enuff to 50% ~ 625 watts .... which in turn @ 85%  ~ 728 watts from wall ...   728 - 688 = 40 watts ... do the math and that's $350 out of my pocket

We can't do Bronze to Gold as no Bronze on this line ... but we can go Gold to Titanium .... 4% difference instead of the 5% from Bronze to Gold

- Box pulls 688 watts from the wall  .... Gold @ 90% ~ 619 watts of output  close enuff to 50% ~ 625 watts .... which in turn @ 94%  ~ 659 watts from wall ...   688 - 659 = 29 watts ... do the math and that's $254 with your usage at my costs .

Seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 = $114 w/ $20 rebate card and 10% off
Seasonic Prime Ultra Gold 650 = $107

That's a whopping $7 ...as you can see jumping up two 80 plus levels at $7 is not really a big deal.

So a double "no" here as upping up to *double the wattage *or *2 steps of 80 Plus rating* is clearly doable with a positive return on the investment.  It won't work every time .   But yes it **can** and quite often does.   

But you also used Gold efficiency numbers but then said it won't pay from Bronze to Gold....that's not 3% but 5% .... Jumping from Gold to Titanium, just 4% still has payback for even at your very low wattage and less than average electric costs.  Let's do the math for your example, th0 forgive me for using 325 watts instead of 300 to make the math easy

-650 watt Gold @ 50% load = 90%, w/ 325 watt load = 361.11 watts at wall
-650 watt Titanium @ 50% load = 94% w/ 325 watt load = 345.74

345.74 - 361.11 = 15.37 watts x your 10 hours per day x 365 days x $ 0.106 / 1000 = $  5.95 per year for you
345.74 - 361.11 = 15.37 watts x your 10 hours per day x 365 days x $ 0.240 / 1000 = $13.46 per year for me

_"Now is that Gold supply really going to pay for itself over a quality Bronze any time soon? Nope. "_

Before going further, wanted to mention, I went to Seasonic because it's a line that I am most familiar.  I didn't use Bronze to Gold as the numbers you used for the baseline were Gold not Bronze.   In additoon, you misrepresented the efficiency improvement from Bronze to Gold as 3% when it was 5%.   So I used Gold to Titanium to go along with the baseline % efficiency you used.  Looking at Seasonic because it's the line with which I am most familiar, there is no line that exists with both bronze and gold models at same wattage, at least none on pcpartpicker

S12 has Bronze no Gold
M12 has Bronze no Gold
EVO has no Gold

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?CompareItemList=-1|9SIADZJ7EW9545^9SIADZJ7EW9545,17-151-198^17-151-198 

$159.99 - 10% promo = $143.99 - $30 rebate = $113.99 for Titanium and $106.73 for Gold = $7.26

Even at your low electricity costs, a very low 325 wattage your suggested usage you'd be making a profit with Titanium over Gold after just 1.22 years ... with a 12 year warranty, I think that easily qualifies as "soon".   At my costs, the payback period is 6.47 months.   *So your assertion that one can not "soon" get a return on investment for improving efficiency rating fails, and miserably so.  * 

5.  You are aware that the ATX standard of +/- 5% of rated voltage is a minimum.    When overclocking, voltage control circuitry on all of your components has to work harder with varying voltage and increased noise.    For office builds, the ATX standard of 5% is fine.... for moderate overclocking, I want < 2.5%, for extreme overclocking, I want < 1%.     It's not so much what it is at the stable load as what it is during gaming where load varies.  I was troubleshooting a a new build whereby the user had upgraded GFX cards and was having issues .... I measured the wattage at the wall and it was still less than is should be appropriate for PSU rating ... so was perplexed.   In a job meeting at the  power plant, we were having issues as  various load areas were energized.  I asked the design consultant about my PSU problem and he recommended that power supplies for control systems always be sized for at least 1.25 to 1.5  times the max theoretical load so that you have enough headroom foir those momentary spikes.  I called vendor and asked them to send  a larger PSU explaininmg that they could charge my CC and would return the smaller PSU if it solved the problem and the larger if it didn't ... whichever it was they could credit my account accordingly.    Wattage "at the wall" was still less than the rating of the original (both were Corsairs VX450 and 550) .    Happened again several years later with a poair of Antecs.  

In recent years I have noticed that vendors tweak their voltages cause most reviewers report data at rated loads ... less usefull I think as most folks follow the 1.25 to 1.5 rule and we now often see more voltage variation at these loads.   Again, it's not the steady load situation that has shown itself to be problematic, it's when load is bouncing over wide ranges, voltage regulation gets iffy.     I remember an Antec TrueControl  PSU that had voltage adjustments for each rail so you could calibrate your system to your own loadings.   Would like to see that feature more prevalent.  

As for the noise, well that's just basic stuff ...  jonnyguru work for ya as a valid source ? ...using the VX450 referenced abive

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story2&reid=64

_"Typically, we see ripple and noise increase their waveform as the load increases. "_   Im with jonny.


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## GamerGuy (Nov 26, 2018)

I buy solid 'overkill' PSU's that I know will see me thru some upgrades, and I'd stuck with known makers of good, reliable PSU's. I have three PSU for my three rigs -
i7 2600K + LeadTek GTX 1080 - Corsair HX1050
i7 4770K + Palit RTX 2080 Ti Gaming Pro OC - Enermax MAX REVO 1500W
i7 3960X + 2x RX VEGA 64 - Seasonic X1250

I'd gotten these PSU's years ago and they're doing a damn fine job with my rigs, when I'd gotten them, I was told they were 'overkill' PSU's, but I didn't care about efficiency, I was more concerned about future upgrades, I wanted PSU's that were good with more than sufficient POWAH for platform and/or component upgrades.

I also have a Seasonic OEM PSU rated at 850W Bronze lying around somewhere as a spare PSU....


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## phill (Nov 26, 2018)

I agree with overkill PSUs but I don't find many issues with this.  The PSU will deliver the wattage/amps that the PC requires, it will be a little worse for the efficiency no doubt..  As an example my homeserver runs a 750w unit, but at idle the system uses a total of 35w..  I know it's not going to be at the 90% efficiency rating by any stretch (possibly around 80% or under) but otherwise I'd have to use splitters etc for the drives in the system, which I don't really like doing.

I do try and pair up systems with a bit of head room and do aim to get the wattage about the 50% marker as that's were a lot of PSUs are at their most efficient.  A good example is my 5960X and 1080 Ti, that can take 600w from the socket, so a 1200w unit is pretty much on the money...  That said the unit is a Platinum unit as well, so probably better off with that


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## Guakamolly2 (Nov 26, 2018)

I have been using the same 750w Cooler Master PSU for 10 years now and I have no issues. It think it mostly depends how much headroom you have and luck of the draw...


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 26, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> Ok, I didn't think we needed to add "all other things being equal"
> 
> *Your assertion that "It is the exact same 33W of wasted energy. " is blatantly false.  Statement 2 holds as true*


  

Come on! You cannot change the scenario and use different supplies that have different efficiency ratings, which of course would yield different amounts of wasted energy, then declare you are right! That's just hogwash with you in denial and your ego refusing to admit your blanket statements are wrong. 

Did you see that I said, repeatedly, "maybe"? Do you realize that maybe means sometimes it may and sometimes it may not? 

The math is simple! If you have two supplies (pick a size, doesn't matter as long as they are big enough) and both are rated at 90% efficiency with 300W loads, both will pull from the wall the exact same amount, 333W. That is why your blanket statement is wrong.

Now if you want to change the scenario, as you did above, and say one supply is rated at 87% and the other at 90%, then of course, one will waste more than the other.

So yes, "_All blanket statements are wrong!_" Sorry if the irony of that statement flew right over your head.


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## coonbro (Nov 26, 2018)

Flyordie said:


> I used this calculator and it recommended a 1,600W PSU for my rig.
> 
> I am running an 850W Seasonic X Series and the fan barely spins under load.
> 
> ...



I use that unit as well ,  been one of the better psu's I've run  .not to say you cant get the lemon with anything .    it seems its 8 years old now [??]  in its 3ed build now  with out issue     . some times I got to wonder  ''is this thing  on ''   cause your not telling by the fan noise  or if its spinning at all  ...lol...


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## Vario (Nov 27, 2018)

For some reason people pay pretty good amounts for used power supplies on eBay so I just sell them after 5-8 years and buy a new one.  Not out of any replacement parts plan, it just happened to work out that way.


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## coonbro (Nov 27, 2018)

in the end I just go look at tare down reviews like johney guru  asnd see what he got to sday on the units platform /guts / build quality  /or model revision changes  for the good or bad  over the old one that was great   . a solid all jap components unit should last 10 years  with a 5 -10 year warrantee .     ya kinda feel a bit safe with one like that  , but still don't mean you could not get a lemon  in the bunch   .  
too many guys build a 2000$ rig and go with a underpowered  50 buck  special   and then wonder why something don't do right somehow .

I think the psu is the hart and life blood of a build and should be treated as so with a best quality unit you can find / afford  . and have some piece of mind when you fire it up and pound things out at full stressing loads  / stability  [opinion]


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## phill (Nov 27, 2018)

Vario said:


> For some reason people pay pretty good amounts for used power supplies on eBay so I just sell them after 5-8 years and buy a new one.  Not out of any replacement parts plan, it just happened to work out that way.



Can't say I've even done that myself..  Just keep using my PSUs I've bought unless they are pants no name models in which case they get thrown out...


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## HTC (Dec 17, 2018)

TRIPTEX_CAN said:


> This is the reply I was waiting for.
> 
> Let me know if you do pull it out have a look.



Took my GPU out to replace the fans and, while i was @ it, took the PSU out for "cap" inspection. I didn't see any caps like the ones in post #9 but i didn't poke around too much tbh: afraid i'd kill it while doing so.


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## Mac2580 (Dec 17, 2018)

I dont much technical knowledge regarding PSU's, but have a Thermaltake Litepower 450p which has been working since 2009. I used till 2017 with a Q9400 Core 2 Quad with varous graphics cards(R7 260x from 2014 till 2017). I replaced it due to needing a 8 pin pcie connector. Gifted it to a broke friend whos PSU failed a couple of years earlier. He uses the pc (E5700 dual core and gt 440) daily to stream youtube and play dota. Still going strong currently, fan spins freely with no bearing noise. I patiently await failure, and its important to note that it is a low end unit, with chinese capacitors.


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 17, 2018)

Mac2580 said:


> I dont much technical knowledge regarding PSU's, but have a Thermaltake Litepower 450p which has been working since 2009. I used till 2017 with a Q9400 Core 2 Quad with varous graphics cards(R7 260x from 2014 till 2017). I replaced it due to needing a 8 pin pcie connector. Gifted it to a broke friend whos PSU failed a couple of years earlier. He uses the pc (E5700 dual core and gt 440) daily to stream youtube and play dota. Still going strong currently, fan spins freely with no bearing noise. I patiently await failure, and its important to note that it is a low end unit, with chinese capacitors.



Rarity for them.


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## Mr.Scott (Dec 17, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Rarity for them.


More like 'on borrowed time'.


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## Mac2580 (Dec 23, 2018)

Mr.Scott said:


> More like 'on borrowed time'.



I got the model number wrong, specs seem worse than 450p. Still going strong though.


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## Mr.Scott (Dec 23, 2018)

Mac2580 said:


> I got the model number wrong, specs seem worse than 450p. Still going strong though.


lol
Borrowed time is still borrowed.


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