# VISTA q&a by ms employees



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/w...-protection-twenty-questions-and-answers.aspx

please read the whole thing including comments befor you post, no more of this off the cuff  crap from people who havent read the linked artical please.

i will post my comments after others have had a cance to do so


----------



## KennyT772 (Jan 22, 2007)

compelete bullshit. 

i give it a year before hackers disable every procaution in windows. and 6 months after that when M$ will want a weekly upload to the net.


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

ok im posting this for those vista lovers to read, its ms developer(works for ms) effectivly admiting to EVERYTHING peter guntman's artical said.
granted theres alot of SPIN in his answers or the answers are useless because, well he subverts them(like opensorce drivers and HID)  but you read and deside

this is a link to the vista team blog where this artical can be fould
http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/OS-Enhancements/Microsoft-Virtual-PC-2004-Key-Fix.shtml

About Nick White
I'm a Product Manager at Microsoft working on the Windows Vista launch team. I also work with key influencers in our user community. This means I get to do cool stuff, play with lots of electronic toys, travel the world, and blog about it at the same time. I know you're jealous  
© Copyright 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




> Windows Vista Content Protection - Twenty Questions (and Answers)
> Posted by Nick White on Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:38 AM 	 45 Comments	Tags: Windows Vista, Featured News, Digital Rights Management
> 
> 
> ...





> This essay has essentially CONFIRMED every horrible charge leveled at Vista by Gutmann. Using a bucket full of weasel words does nothing to convince me that Vista isn't screwing the consumer--or worse, the media/medical professional--for the sake of. . . of what? At the end of the day, the most infuriating thing about this crippleware is that it was done with such a blatant disregard for the consumer without a moment's hesitation.  In what universe is it appropriate to give a content producer the power to turn off a user's hardware? How can you have no moral qualms with this?





> When you posture DRM as a 'direct consumer benefit' you may as well just be saying 'It's double plus good' as you strap the rat cage to my face.
> 
> The boldness which Microsoft infringes on the interests of their end-users by pandering to their business partners under the assumption that consumers will choke down whatever we're fed.
> 
> I suppose in some respects we have choked down a lot in the past but the Zune, Office 2007 and Vista are all unrivaled in their inability to grasp the needs of their customers.





> > Will the Windows Vista content protection board robustness recommendations increase the cost of graphics cards [...]
> 
> The answer given here is evasive. I recommend to read a presentation given by ATI at WinHEC 2005, available at Microsoft's web site: http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWEN05002_WinHEC05.ppt
> 
> ...






> "In the case of HD optical media formats such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the constraint requirement is 520K pixels per frame (i.e., roughly 960x540), which is still higher than the native resolution of content distributed in the DVD-Video format.  We feel that this is still yields a great user experience, even when using a high definition screen."
> 
> YUM! I LOVE to get less than what I paid for, simply because I don't want my computer and monitor to pay licenses to Intel for a technology that is so weak (and misplaced) it is bordering on useless.
> 
> ...





> Since when did you think that DRM would not apply to medical imaging.  Speaking as a physician, we ALREADY have this problem.  The medical image DICOM format has been split into various flavors by competing software vendors who do their best to make sure that you have to have THEIR viewer in order to see files saved in their version of the format.
> 
> Further competing hospitals are choosing not to  install viewers that would allow MD's to look at films that were taken at their competition ( or perhaps their IT staff can't be bothered to install them -- either way the result is the same).   This proprietary behavior is already hindering patient care.
> 
> Vista's enhanced DRM only aggravates this nonsense!!





> I have one DVD with video in WMV HD. When I used VGA connector on notebook with WinXP and integrated Intel graphics on Samsung LCD - it was able to play 1080i video with great image quality and smooth playback.
> 
> When I played the same video on Vista through HDMI connector, video looks like some MPEG 2 VideoCD quality without any smooth playback (P4 2.4, 1.5GM RAM and GF6600GT). This is "great user experience"? I don't think so!
> 
> Vista is great, but NOT for multimedia pc connect to HD Ready television.






> Nick,
> 
> <i>If the policies required protections that Windows Vista couldn't support, then the content would not be able to play at all on Windows Vista PCs.  Clearly that isn't a good scenario for consumers who are looking to enjoy great next generation content experiences on their PCs.</i>
> 
> ...





> Posted by ScottyDog
> 
> I read Peter Gutman's analysis and I just finished reading David Marsh's response.
> 
> ...





> Posted by clshrock
> 
> Nick,
> 
> ...





> Posted by clshrock
> 
> MrTuffy,
> 
> ...





I copyed some of the better comments , love how people HATE this DRM crap


----------



## KennyT772 (Jan 22, 2007)

The fundimental problem with vista is the numbers. no new computer will be sold with xp soon after vista comes out. no average joe will know all of the problems with vista. some of those who do know dont care. we power users make up a small percentage of the userbase. the only way we will put vista down is by education.


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

i have been printing and handing mr guntmans artical like crazy, nobody in my neiborhood will get vista.

and soon after vistas releced it will still be cheaper to choose xp home or pro on your new dell then vista so cheap people will likely do that!!!!


----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2007)

> Using a bucket full of weasel words does nothing to convince me that Vista isn't screwing the consumer





> When you posture DRM as a 'direct consumer benefit' you may as well just be saying 'It's double plus good' as you strap the rat cage to my face.


These are 2 of my favorite quotes. lol


I pretty much agree with 90% of the responses made in that blog. What really pi**es me off is that I know my hardware is fully capable of displaying content in at least 720p. Why in the hell are we required to have an HDCP capable *MONITOR!?* It's the things of this nature that really make me mad. Requiring hardware beyond the necessary drive to read it is totally unjustifiable.  Why should I have to spend hundreds of my hard earned dollars just to buy hardware with the HDCP logo, when what I have is already powerful enough to play the content? I do not pirate movies or music at all, yet I'm the one that suffers from this, not the pirates. They'll have it fully cracked any time now, but I'll have to watch everything at a reduced resolution, while they enjoy their illegal copies in all of its unconstrained glory. Looks like I'll have to change my stance on cracks now, as I just don't have the money to come into full HDCP compliance. Way to screw those that actually want to obey the law, Microsoft and MPAA/RIAA.


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

not just monotor, video card and sound card as well, or you get 64k mp3  class audio and perty vcd quility image *woot i have bluray/hd-dvd....oh wait i cant watch it till i spend another grand on a monotor videocard and soundcard that are hdcp/hdmi approved"


rofl


u honestly want to know what drove to download cracks the first time, i had a safedisk protected game that WOULDNT PLAY ON MY SYSTEM the cd drives( i had to try) couldnt red it so the protection would let the game play, tryed returning it the 2nd one didnt work, so i started searching the net(lycos and hotbot) and found that it wasnt rare at all and that the best easyest fixes where 1, no cd crack, 2, daemontools and blindread.

orignaly i thought cracks must be bad and probbly caused games to crash, boy they saved me a bunch of times since them

what drove me to piracy full on has been VUG(sierra) and ATARI(infogramers) and how they treat costmers, i got sick of buying a game for 40-80bucks that was put out early and promised a patch to get it up to snuff and then they never patch it because they dont want to expend the $ to finnish the patch since they already had our $$ they didnt care.

i need a siggy image thatss for a pirat hat, hook hand and cutlass in it


----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> not just monotor, video card and sound card as well, or you get 64k mp3  class audio and perty vcd quility image *woot i have bluray/hd-dvd....oh wait i cant watch it till i spend another grand on a monotor videocard and soundcard that are hdcp/hdmi approved"
> 
> 
> rofl
> ...


With all this DRM bs going on, I'm seriously debating joining you in that endeavor.


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

arrrr m8ty, one more is alwase welcome to join our crew *peglegg walks over and pulls out a chair for WileE*

the only way they will ever get the clue that WE DONT WANT IT is if we dont buy it.

for me a few games i wanted where published by companys i dont want to see get any of my hard earned $, as such i aquier them however i can that wont give the orignal company any of my green,  many times i endup buying the games a couple years after they came out used at a local shop, till then i live off "what i find floating in the brine"


----------



## Lazzer408 (Jan 22, 2007)

My only question would be "Is this OS a waste of resources like the other Windows opperating systems?"


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

vista on a clean install with 1gb ram uses 700+mb to "appcache" they say this is to make the user esperiance better by prefetching commonly used apps into ram, i say its gonna slow down things when you load a non fetched app.

2003 is LIGHT on resorces, hence its what i use (ad well as what most of my friends have switched to)  its what xp should have been.

with a crap load of apps running i still have over 2.5gb ready to load up with other stuff


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 22, 2007)

oh and the QnA answered your question no its heavy on cpu and videocard and everything else due to the DRM luggege the os is carrying around


----------



## Alec§taar (Jan 22, 2007)

Man... know what I dislike?

The fact that Microsoft probably has built their best OS this time around @ this point in VISTA, & this lunacy over "DRM" is going to mess it all up...

(To me, this says that RIAA & other entities involved in multimedia production still have TONS of monies & legal powers, & are able to influence the largest producer of Operating Systems for the PC to 'bend to their will' it appears, to me @ least!)

Someone said it above, basically, in a nutshell: THE ONLY WAY MICROSOFT WILL "GET THE MESSAGE" is if folks don't buy it...

However, they'll get it on NEW PC's, & this inevitably takes hold as the majority over time... just a matter of time is all.

The part about having to have a special monitor is INSANE though, from what I read above in one of the comments... wtf is that about?

Ah man...  see, overall? I like Microsoft!

(Even though they hassled me once over using the word "WINDOWS" in the titles of some freewares I did, no less, lol - FREEWARES of all things, & this made me have to pull of a number of recompiles for NO GOOD REASON imo)

They've done some great work over time, & the things they've accomplished amaze me, personally... but, this really makes me wonder!

This, & the OpenGL vs. DirectX 10 issue on VISTA.

APK

P.S.=> I will make judgements on it, once I have used it, hands-on/personally, & I will wait out the driver & bugs mess to 'shakeout, but I hate seeing GREAT THINGS, go bad, & degenerate too... oh well! I hope this doesn't affect us all too adversely, & ruin a great company... apk


----------



## DRDNA (Jan 22, 2007)

how long will it take ????I bet its already here!!!! No way M$ and Hollywood will keeps the hacks from coming to rip apart the downgrading picture and all that rubbish !!!!! Damn its like they are challenging the hackers ,lol I bet I know who wins !!!! to bad M$ and Hollywood do it at a cost to us and hackers do it for the challenge and to relieve the burden M$ and Hollywood created for the end user!!!!Hip-hip-hurray to the hackers!!1 H3ll you can even get a degree in it.


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 23, 2007)

Alec§taar:
read up on vista, you need HDCD and HDMI to beable to watch your movies/listen to audio at full quility if its part of a "preimum content" packege(anything new coming out of hollywood) 

HDCP costs extra because the company making the device has to play INTEL for the licence on each device, and if sombody finds a way to crack ur $350 hdcp/hdmi monotor guess what, they dissable it from preimum content via a blacklist and u get to buy a new one!!!!!

i wouldnt agree vista is the best os ms has made, i would say its the biggist pile of crap for 1 reasion

ITS DRM TO THE CORE, the os has tons of ways to stop delivering you content IF you dont meet HOLLYWOORDS and MS's standreds for your hardware.

you need
hdmi/hdcp video card
hdmi/hdcp monnor(tv as well if you want to watch the movie on ur hdt it has to be HDCP)
HDCP/HDMI apprived audio sorce.

also all those devices need hollywood approved drivers and hardware designs that prevent people from finding a way to get the signal off the card unprotected.

heres a less cluttered version of gutmann's artical "the cost of vista content protection"
http://imperiumworlds.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1168519157

you can also download it as a text file (link in post) and print it if you dont like long reads on the pc, its well worth the read!!!


----------



## Alec§taar (Jan 23, 2007)

AshenSugar,

You've been VERY informative here, more than you know, in fact, simply by your mentioning INTEL & HOLLYWOOD in the same sentence in regards to this, as well as turning me onto some more of the details distilled in your last reply!

See, imo @ least?

Well, whenever changes are made in laws (especially HERE), technologies, gov't. (another 'especially'), people's rights, & ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO MONEY OR POWER?

You should ALWAYS ASK 1 SIMPLE QUESTION!

"Who, or what body of "whoms", stands to gain THE MOST by this change or set of changes in the rules of how this particular game is played?"

The ones who's profit centers in entertainment @ least, who are threatened by "DRM" NOT being present in personal computers is who.

APK

P.S.=> I'd like you ALL to think about that question, regarding this, & then ask yourself WHO REALLY CONTROLS BOTH ORGANIZATIONS, largely! And, please folks, don't try & tell me there is never an "infamous they" because if you've worked ANYPLACE for awhile?

Cliques (or other forms of "group therapy" as I call it) DO control things, face it, & they don't think 20 days/weeks/months in advance usually: They think in terms of DECADES ahead, time being on their side, as long as THEY make the rules in that particular body.

You don't have to answer, but, just think about it & come to your OWN conclusions, because I have & will keep them to myself (might be wrong is why, but somehow, I doubt it... history backs me up pretty well on that account)... apk


----------



## Thermopylae_480 (Jan 23, 2007)

I had a friend who tried to create a media center PC for his HDTV, he had XP on the computer, but the video card and the TV had some sort of HDCP problem, and it wouldn't work.  The card was somewhere in the mid X1000 series, and should have worked, but wouldn't.  He wasn't even attempting to defy the DRM, but it still screwed him.  I believe he gave up and returned the card, and the rest of the parts.


----------



## Namslas90 (Jan 23, 2007)

Wow, it would take a week to read all that.  The bottom line is that the "they" reffered to earlier; are the same they that controll 90% of the market.  The blatent profiteering gennerated from a single small controlled application can gennerate Billions of profits for a lot of people.  The one's that profit can afford the extra crap needed to watch the Movies, etc they want and they make $'s of it anyways.  

This is how a Free Market system works!!
10% of the people have 90% of the money!!
There is nothing you can do about it, this is a fact and has been for thousands of years.
You have only two choices, Go with it and buy the stuff, or don't and watch reruns on TV and/or rent from netflix/blockbuster("they" still make their money either way).


----------



## Alec§taar (Jan 23, 2007)

Namslas90 said:


> 10% of the people have 90% of the money!!
> There is nothing you can do about it, this is a fact and has been for thousands of years.



OH, I dunno about that... 

E.G.-> I've seen some folks like that take QUITE THE BEATING in history before & oddly, they don't seem to LEARN from history very well either.

Just the "nature of the beast"... & I do think it is whom I suspect @ the root of this & other 'world problems' now... the 10% that control 90% of this nation's wealth @ least (USA).

I mean, lol, do you think that "they" got their money TOTALLY honestly? LOL... man, I hope not.

Very often, anybody w/ HUGE wealth (or, bodies w/ huge wealth) have to STOMP others into the dirt, to get it... making enemies all the time along their way.

APK

P.S.=> I'd like to tell you all, something along the lines of "HOLD ONTO YOUR COPIES OF 2000/XP/SERVER 2003" but, it's only a matter of time before they don't get updated/upgraded anymore & won't run (or fully @ least) on the PC's of the future.

Sure, you can TRY to hold onto a machine that STILL functions w/ the older OS, but only a matter of time before it breaks down & you won't be able to find replacement parts for it too.

E.G.-> Someone (forum will remain unnamed) asked me for a copy of Os/2 recently, & I told them "I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND IT ON TODAY'S RIGS, BECAUSE I DOUBT IT HAS DEVICE SUPPORT FOR THEIR PARTS FULLY IF AT ALL NOW"

This is going to happen on the older Windows OS' too, given time. Damn shame this DRM crap.

I'll tell you 1 thing, were I Bill Gates (probably oversimplifying it, but here goes):

If the U.S. gov't., the RIAA, or anyone (like most governments unfortunately are via corruption, graft, or other forms of coercion & blackmail - another bought & paid for entity imo largely) tried to push MY company around, the way MS has been pursued?

LOL, I would have told them "Hey, Canada's next door - I can jump ship to them & I'd wager they'd take me with open arms, so SCREW YOU!"

Because, guys: After reading the above, & agreeing w/ AshenSugar's assessment of who is driving this? Well... I am pretty sure MY conclusion is correct, & it's NOT "purely Microsoft" ALONE, here guys, FAR from it! apk


----------



## Thermopylae_480 (Jan 23, 2007)

Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged APK?  I think you'd like it  .


----------



## Alec§taar (Jan 23, 2007)

Thermopylae_480 said:


> Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged APK?  I think you'd like it  .



I probably would... but, I am not sure what it's about - what I do know is, what I see around me... doesn't take a "major brain" to see what is going on out there today, especially for as long as I have been around (which is more than most folks here have been).

Sure, I can be wrong like anyone else, but, I really DO NOT THINK SO, once I saw INTEL & HOLLYWOOD in the SAME SENTENCE, & seeing they are the major gainers from this OUTRIGHT CRIPPLING of this OS family in this manner.

And yes, this IS crippling it, so certain parties can maintain a HUGE profit center.

I am NOT against somebody making a profit, far from it, it helps them survive, & in a local economy, sooner or later, that profit or part of it, helps YOU survive too... an engine really of sorts.

BUT, if you're going to try to tell me "this car runs as well as your last one, better in fact, but doesn't have the same abilities as your last one" well, I am going to change auto makers!

APK

P.S.=> Above all else - IF you think MS, as long as they are USA based, doesn't have to "play ball"? YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! 

Speaking as a geek - I do NOT like seeing something that should be better than the last version be less in ANY way... this IS less, on DRM & OpenGL!

Microsoft would make money, either way, if they left that stuff as is, like it is in XP for instance... but, I have a feeling they are being coerced by greedy mgt. falling for a pack of CRAP being fed them, or other forms of coercion (much as the gov't. applied to them)... because this makes NO SENSE to me, from a business standpoint @ all for MS... none!

Other than negative press, & it's justified on this account! 

IF this keeps up? I'll run Windows Server 2003 as long as I can, on equipment that will run it that is (for how long that is? I can give you a guesstimate, based on Os/2: Around 5-10 yrs. or so, before it doesn't "keep up" on driver updates anymore & security patches, on a guess comparison)

Then, I'd probably actually 'jump ship' to Linux @ some point, because crippling an OS @ ANY LEVEL, vs. its predecessors is helping SOMEBODY profit @ my expense, & give me less than I paid for (especially in terms of computer operating systems, vs. their LAST version)... 

I won't stand for that, not for MY monies! apk


----------



## AshenSugar (Jan 23, 2007)

the NSA was used to help make vistas DRM   hows that make you feel?

do you really "them"/"they" in your personal pc?


----------



## Namslas90 (Jan 23, 2007)

Alec§taar said:


> OH, I dunno about that...
> 
> E.G.-> I've seen some folks like that take QUITE THE BEATING in history before & oddly, they don't seem to LEARN from history very well either.
> 
> ...



So true, most of them also ripped off the public to get rich.

Canada, yeah they would.

I agree with both of you, but you gotta think, who's the "they" behind the one's your looking at, to see what I'm talking about.  Don't forget that sales increase many incomes, not to mention taxes!!


----------



## Namslas90 (Jan 23, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> the NSA was used to help make vistas DRM   hows that make you feel?
> 
> do you really "them"/"they" in your personal pc?



I don't even like windows or anybody else starting my I-net connection until I want to.  It's my computer(I paid for it), why do they get to tell it what to do and not me.


----------



## Alec§taar (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm done editing THIS post now, finally!

Sorry for the rant, but WE ARE OFF ON A TEAR now, lol... so, have @ it!



AshenSugar said:


> the NSA was used to help make vistas DRM   hows that make you feel?



Yes, I'm aware of that per SLASHDOT, recently... & I don't TRUST it either, why?

This may sound a bit weird coming from me, because I really LIKE personal computing, but I figured there'd come a day when crap like this started... both on OS crippling (which I saw after NT 3.51 w/ "certain programs" that no longer WORK on any OS since, & when I want to use them? I have to load it again, believe it or not, & NOTHING to do w/ modern OS diff.'s imo, certain functions on IP were shut off for various programs, I am CONVINCED of it since NT 3.5x) & 'backdoors' into our homes via them!

So, the past 5 yrs, now or so?? I have been gathering what I can as far as good freewares & such for THIS series of OS as it stands now, for the day I may leave the net (@ home @ least, silly as that may sound).



AshenSugar said:


> do you really "them"/"they" in your personal pc?



I think they're in there already, IF they want to be & @ 1/100th of the difficulty there is for hacker/cracker types of 'classic' nature!

(and, if you're online via the public internet) 

IMO, & this IS part of the doubtless "unspoken terms" of the US Gov't. pressure on MS the past few years now... 

E.G.-> IBM mainframes, not exact here, but point is:

It used to be iirc, that if you pressed something like Ctrl+XYZZY you had insta-admin access @ a console terminal in them, believe it or not, & this was NOT well known until WAY later!

(Along w/ other things IBM hid, & MADE THEIR ENGINEERS KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT, see "John Titor" online, about how some of this came out (way out topic though, or is it))... 

Remotely? I don't doubt this either... this world & HOW IT WORKS, sometimes (especially this week, on a personal level for me) really disgusts me at times.

I'm sort of an idealist I suppose, & believe that humanity is essentially a noble creature as a whole usually, working to better our lifestyle & conditions thereof & we have (heck, we eat & live in homes FAR better than kings a few hundred years ago did imo)... but, @ what price sometimes?

LOL, we're being sold "homeland security" for what? Less personal privacy & freedoms?? Homeland security is A LOT like you said about stopping every terrorist in the world in your thread about GAME COPY PROTECTION (doesn't work anyhow, not really, not IMO!).

It's easy to be a sneaky bastidge & pull terrorist crap, or as a pal of mine says "IT IS EASY TO BE BOGUS & DESTRUCTIVE FOR REVENGE!" & he's right. How do you fight an invisible opponent?

Sometimes? You HAVE to be willing to take a beating to ensure your safety, or deal one out... Easy for me to say though, I don't have a family to worry about that keeps MY mouth shut, so for somebody like me? Well, it's easy to square your shoulders in folks' like my case & thus, to NOT leading a "life of quiet desperation" much of the time... 

However, this has gotten my butt kicked a few times though, I'll admit that. This week SORT OF being one of them (not bad, but enough to upset me on a personal level in real life, & NO, I won't get into it (not legal stuff, I'll give you that much, but more on a MONEY level, only)).

BUT, always worth it to me: I couldn't live w/ myself otherwise for the MOST part (yes, sometimes we ALL have to keep our mouths shut, for awhile @ least to SOME things, others not I suppose).

APK

P.S.=> Heck, now, more than ever? I am CONVINCED that "Dogs are better people, than people" because when I look around me? I want to walk away from everything, & just learn to live on a mountain like a hermit or something, lol... 

Don't mind me, but reading ALL of this? Upset me a great deal, because I see something that OUGHT to be BETTER, on ALL levels, not being so... & only a matter of time, if I choose to stay in this field/ballcourt, before I have to 'succumb' to it as well... apk


----------



## Wile E (Jan 23, 2007)

Alex, you pretty much  just summed up my view of the entire world, as well.


----------

