# U.S. Tech Industry, Including Google, Microsoft, Intel, and Qualcomm, Ban Huawei



## btarunr (May 20, 2019)

The United States tech industry has overnight dealt a potentially fatal blow to Chinese electronics giant Huawei, by boycotting the company. The companies are establishing compliance with a recent Executive Order passed by President Donald Trump designed to "stop the import, sale, and use of equipment and services by foreign companies based in countries that are potential adversaries to U.S. interests," particularly information technology security. Google has announced that it will no longer allow Huawei to license Android, and will stop updates and Google Play access to Huawei smartphones. Huawei can still equip its phones with open-source Android, but it cannot use Google's proprietary software, including Google Play Store, Chrome, and all the other Google apps. Intel decided to no longer supply processors and other hardware to Huawei, for use in its laptops and server products. Sales of AMD processors will stop, too. Qualcomm-Broadcom have decided to stop supply of mobile SoCs and network PHYs, respectively. Microsoft decided to stop licensing Huawei to use Windows and Office products. 

The ban is a consequence of the U.S. Government placing Huawei on a list of banned entities, forcing all U.S. companies to abandon all trade with it, without prior approval from the Department of Commerce. Trade cuts both ways, and not only are U.S. firms banned from buying from Huawei, they're also banned from selling to it. Huawei "buys from" over 30 U.S. companies, (for example, Windows licenses from Microsoft). CNN reports that U.S. firms could lose up to $11 billion in revenues.



 




Huawei's origins trace back to its founder Ren Zhengfei, who started out his tech career as part of the People's Liberation Army Information Technology R&D department, and is accused by his detractors of remaining loyal to the Chinese state in a manner that compromises security of its Western customers. Huawei was poised to become the world's #1 smartphone vendor in terms of sales.

President Trump as part of the Executive Order, writes "I further find that the unrestricted acquisition or use in the United States of information and communications technology or services designed, developed, manufactured, or supplied by persons owned by, controlled by, or subject to the jurisdiction or direction of foreign adversaries augments the ability of foreign adversaries to create and exploit vulnerabilities in information and communications technology or services, with potentially catastrophic effects, and thereby constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States." 

The definition of an adversarial entity is open to interpretation, and Huawei may not be the only foreign company that qualifies as one. Since trading opened Monday morning in Asian markets, stock prices of listed Chinese tech firm ZTE fell 10 percent. Huawei is a private company. Across the pond, European governments remain neutral to Huawei. The UK and European Commission have separately conducted investigations into allegations of Huawei posing a data-security risk, and have both concluded to have seen no merit to the accusations. The EU is Huawei's largest market for smartphones outside China, and an abrupt stoppage of Google services impacting functionality of Huawei smartphones in the EU exposes Google to EU anti-trust regulators who have already penalized the company hundreds of millions of Euros in the past for abusing its market dominance. 

To date, the Trump administration has not put out specific evidence against Huawei in a U.S. court of law, or the public domain. Washington Post in a May 19 editorial highlights this lack of transparency. "Neither the United States nor any of its allies has produced a 'smoking gun' proving that Chinese intelligence uses Huawei technology to penetrate other countries' networks. Under the circumstances, it is legitimate for the United States to seek greater transparency from Huawei, both about its ownership and its strategic objectives in the global market," it reads. WaPo further goes on to comment that the exclusion of Huawei will impact the deployment of 5G telecommunication technology around the world, enabling driverless cars, telemedicine, next-generation unmanned mechanized warfare, and the Internet of Things.

Huawei declined to comment on the development, but has mitigations for this ban. Android has been significantly forked by Chinese smartphone vendors with open-source software, and Huawei could do something similar. The company already uses its own apps, games, and content marketplace rivaling Google Play; and almost all Google apps have alternatives in China. The company makes its own SoCs and doesn't rely on Qualcomm. The Chinese government already does not use Windows, and this development could help in the proliferation of Linux distributions. A decline in the sales and use of Microsoft Windows could be China's retaliatory move. The country has already taken tectonic market access-denial actions against U.S. firms such as Facebook, Google, and Twitter, and nothing stops it from censoring Microsoft. Intel processors continue to form the backbone of client-computing, but it's only a matter of time before Chinese firms mass-produce x86 processors of their own.

*Update May 20th*: Facing regulatory backlash from Huawei devices abruptly losing functionality from loss of Google Play services, Google has in a statement to Reuters confirmed that Google Play app updates and validation services will continue to be offered to existing users of Huawei devices. "For users of our services, Google Play and the security protections from Google Play Protect will continue to function on existing Huawei devices," the spokesperson said, without giving further details.

*Update May 21st*: Goldman Sachs has done some math, looking into how revenue of U.S. companies will be affected by the loss of their customer Huawei. Quite interesting numbers, and surprising how much it affects AMD.

*Update May 21st*: The US Department of Commerce has granted Huwei an extension of 90 days to get their affairs in order, to minimize the impact on Huawei's customers.

*Update May 23rd*: ARM, the company behind the IP required to build ARM-architecture-based microprocessors (which are used in most of Huawei's products), has now stopped working with Huawei, too.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

Does this mean that existing Huawei devices will be banned from the Play Store? Or does it only affect future models? 'Cause if it's the former, this is an extremely hostile action towards the millions of people globally who have bought Huawei phones believing in good faith that they were and would continue to be "Android phones". Of course Play Store access and GApps can be sideloaded on most devices, but ... yeah, that's not your average Huawei user.


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## csgabe (May 20, 2019)

It affects only future models. The Android updates part affects existing devices too.
How about AMD, don't they have  to ban them too?


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## ZoneDymo (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Does this mean that existing Huawei devices will be banned from the Play Store? Or does it only affect future models? 'Cause if it's the former, this is an extremely hostile action towards the millions of people globally who have bought Huawei phones believing in good faith that they were and would continue to be "Android phones". Of course Play Store access and GApps can be sideloaded on most devices, but ... yeah, that's not your average Huawei user.



"Google has announced that it will no longer allow Huawei to license Android, and will stop updates and Google Play access to Huawei smartphones. "

I mean, clearly that is about current models.



csgabe said:


> It affects only future models. The Android updates part affects existing devices too.
> How about AMD, don't they have  to ban them too?



Sure, if AMD made anything for a Huawei phone it goes for them as well.


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## Chomiq (May 20, 2019)

To think few days ago I was checking out their phones. I guess Trump had to bring out the big guns for his negotiations.

Ps.
Lovely TNG reference there.


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

Chomiq said:


> To think few days ago I was checking out their phones. I guess Trump had to bring out the big guns for his negotiations.
> 
> Ps.
> Lovely TNG reference there.


Apparently it doesn't affect "already sold" devices, whatever that means. Is this bound to IMEIs that have already been activated with the Play Store, or does this mean that a factory reset will essentially brick your device? Or will any devices already distributed to retailers and online stores be okay? If not: way to screw over stores too. So much for "supporting business", leaving them with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of unsellable stock. Great idea.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Does this mean that existing Huawei devices will be banned from the Play Store?











						Google says its app store will continue to work for existing Huawei smartphone owners
					

Google said today that existing users of Huawei Android devices can continue to use Google Play app store, offering some relief to tens of millions of users worldwide even as it remains unclear if the Chinese tech giant will be able to use the fully-functioning version of Android in its future...




					techcrunch.com
				





Valantar said:


> Apparently it doesn't affect "already sold" devices, whatever that means. Is this bound to IMEIs that have already been activated with the Play Store, or does this mean that a factory reset will essentially brick your device? Or will any devices already distributed to retailers and online stores be okay? If not: way to screw over stores too. So much for "supporting business", leaving them with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of unsellable stock. Great idea.


It sounds to me like Huawei can't install Google Services on future phones.  Phones that already have it are unaffected.


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## Deleted member 24505 (May 20, 2019)

Wow the pitch forks and yokels are out in America. Considering Huawei buys $67 billion in components, it's pretty dumb. They will just save the money and develop their own.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

tigger said:


> Wow the pitch forks and yokels are out in America



Pilgrims started it.  I always blame the pilgrims.

Anyhow, this is more than just America, but it certainly is weird on several levels.  I'm cautiously saying it could be true though, on the other hand.  I'm just not seeing this level if cooperation over nothing but I also have yet to see evidence.


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## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

csgabe said:


> How about AMD, don't they have to ban them too?


Probably doesn't apply to their "Dhyana"* JV *chips atm. And if CCP is determined enough, consider Zen based clones popping up in China eventually 


ZoneDymo said:


> Sure, if AMD made anything for a Huawei phone it goes for them as well.


This covers everything, with Intel I assume it also covers their server chips?


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Google says its app store will continue to work for existing Huawei smartphone owners
> 
> 
> Google said today that existing users of Huawei Android devices can continue to use Google Play app store, offering some relief to tens of millions of users worldwide even as it remains unclear if the Chinese tech giant will be able to use the fully-functioning version of Android in its future...
> ...


The problem is how you define "future". Future models? Anything coming off the production line after date X? Anything shipped after date X? Anything passing US customs after date X? Anything sold after date X? The wording is vague and can mean many different things. My list goes from most to least "fair" (as in increasing collateral damage), but also from least to most enforceable. After all, Huawei doesn't "install" apps on their phones, they flash a ROM containing the apps onto an unactivated phone, which isn't likely to be switched on at all until the end user has it in hand, meaning it's incredibly hard to enforce a limit based on production date (as it's essentially unknown and easily faked). If the current tactics of the trade war are anything to go by, the US government favors enforceability over minimizing collateral damage.


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## Jozsef Dornyei (May 20, 2019)

This is a strong step kicking Huawei. Might even bankrupt them.
Strategically this is a very bad move.
Chinese companies will not buy US technology parts and software as soon as they can develop anything what works instead.
As China is the largest economy on the planet this move will kick US tech companies from China and all Chinese product.
In 10 years time the US tech industry will be a shadow of todays strength.


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Probably doesn't apply to their "Dhyana"* JV *chips atm. And if CCP is determined enough, consider Zen based clones popping up in China eventually
> This covers everything, with Intel I assume it also covers their server chips?


This is about Huawei specifically, not China. Huawei makes an AMD-based Matebook. One would assume this would affect that too, yes. As for AMD's IP collaboration? Unlikely, as that would require either the US government specifically banning AMD from doing business with Chinese entities or a general ban of US-China business relations, neither of which are likely to happen.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> The problem is how you define "future". Future models? Anything coming off the production line after date X? Anything shipped after date X? Anything passing US customs after date X? Anything sold after date X? The wording is vague and can mean many different things. My list goes from most to least "fair" (as in increasing collateral damage), but also from least to most enforceable. After all, Huawei doesn't "install" apps on their phones, they flash a ROM containing the apps onto an unactivated phone, which isn't likely to be switched on at all until the end user has it in hand, meaning it's incredibly hard to enforce a limit based on production date (as it's essentially unknown and easily faked). If the current tactics of the trade war are anything to go by, the US government favors enforceability over minimizing collateral damage.


Just don't buy Huawei and forget about it. 



Jozsef Dornyei said:


> Chinese companies will not buy US technology parts and software as soon as they can develop anything what works instead.
> As China is the largest economy on the planet this move will kick US tech companies from China and all Chinese product.
> In 10 years time the US tech industry will be a shadow of todays strength.


Without wireless radios and an operating system, what do they have left to sell?  Look at Cuba and their 60s cars...this is pretty much what's going to happen to Huawei phones: stuck in time.  Yup, they'll be bankrupted.  And Trump isn't going to leap to their rescue like he did with ZTE.

USA is the largest economy.  USA tech companies generally don't have access to China other than to manufacture stuff (which they are doing much less of because of tariffs).


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## Space Lynx (May 20, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Pilgrims started it.  I always blame the pilgrims.
> 
> Anyhow, this is more than just America, but it certainly is weird on several levels.  I'm cautiously saying it could be true though, on the other hand.  I'm just not seeing this level if cooperation over nothing but I also have yet to see evidence.



I think there is evidence of the CFO, daughter of the President, dealing with Iran when under contract not to do so. That is originally what led to a warrant for her arrest in Canada, I doubt Canadian police and Judges arrest people without evidence.


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## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

Jozsef Dornyei said:


> Chinese companies will not buy US technology parts and software as soon as they can develop *anything what works instead*.
> As China is the largest economy on the planet this move will kick US tech companies from China and all Chinese product.
> In 10 years time the US tech industry will be a shadow of todays strength.


They already have those, however tech leadership is still with the US, EU, SK & Japan in vast majority of areas. China has partially overcome this by buying tech startups & former conglomerates, IIRC Sharp is now owned by a Chinese firm?

They're not the largest, yet.

No, not happening. The US is still the world leader in innovation for the foreseeable future, you don't go from being a copycat to innovative/inventive in such a short time span.


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

I can't really see this leading to anything other than acceleration of China's already rapid nationalization of technology. Which, if there was any doubt, is purely a bad thing, as this will drive devices away from general-purpose computing, increase pressure on "Western" companies to work with the NSA and its peers, and generally make our personal devices even more of a battleground for international espionage and global politics. Isolationism hurts everyone.


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## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

This isn't just a trade war, as Bannon put it ~ it's an eco(nomic) war, to ensure that either nation sits on top of the gravy train!


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> I can't really see this leading to anything other than acceleration of China's already rapid nationalization of technology. Which, if there was any doubt, is purely a bad thing, as this will drive devices away from general-purpose computing, increase pressure on "Western" companies to work with the NSA and its peers, and generally make our personal devices even more of a battleground for international espionage and global politics. Isolationism hurts everyone.



Sadly, I think you are spot on.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I think there is evidence of the CFO, daughter of the President, dealing with Iran when under contract not to do so. That is originally what led to a warrant for her arrest in Canada, I doubt Canadian police and Judges arrest people without evidence.


Indeed, but it's not so simple...
1) 2012 security advisory put out about ZTE and Huewei.
2) 2015 ZTE violated Iran embargo, ZTE got banned.  Huewei apparently evaded the embargo implying equipment reached Iran from Huawei but it isn't known how.
3) 2017 Trump worked out a settlement to revive ZTE.
4) 2018 Trump bans Huawei equipment from government use.
5) 2018 Huawei CFO jailed in Canada for questioning in relation to the 2015 Iran embargo.
6) 2019 Trump issues an executive order that bans transactions with Huawei on security concerns.

The security concerns date back to 2012.  The fraud/Iran/CFO stuff dates back to 2015.  Then there's the tariffs and the roll out of 5G.

I think the temperature rising because of the trade tensions is causing that 2012 security concern to be viewed as a weaponizable serious threat--a way China could harm the USA and its partners--so he issues this ban to forbid its use/deployment to harden the USA against the threat and remove it as a tool China can use.

The fact this ban happened less than a week after the trade talks fell apart is not merely coincidence.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> The US is still the world leader in innovation for the foreseeable future, you don't go from being a copycat to innovative/inventive in such a short time span.



Loongson suggests this has been in planning for quite some time.  That, and China has been pounding us in supercomputers until recently.


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> No, not happening. The US is still the world leader in innovation for the foreseeable future, you don't go from being a copycat to innovative/inventive in such a short time span.


Innovation needs mainly one thing: education. The amount of people with higher educations in China has _exploded_ in the past decades, far outstripping the US. They have no lack of innovative engineers and designers, and the support structures to give them the resources required for real innovation are being built rapidly (and to a large degree already in place). Do Chinese companies (still) copy US companies a lot? Sure! But they can no longer be blamed for being purely copycats - that was the 90s and early 2000s at best. Thinking a trade war like this will change anything in a meaningful fashion is rather naive. Before the rise of the internet, advanced technical knowledge was closely guarded and mostly kept at western institutions of higher education. Today, it's widely disseminated, some of the world's best technical colleges are in China, and the only advantage "the West" has over China is patents and a longer history of innovation. That won't do much.


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## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Innovation needs mainly one thing: education.


No, innovation today needs money & experience/track record just as much as anything else. Take Intel, AMD, IBM for instance. There is no other uarch or processor comparable to their most powerful chips, no amount of education will get you past that. Now even if you come up with such a hypothetical design will it still beat Intel @5nm when that other chip is being built on 14nm? Same goes for QC & their wireless solutions. At this point China's best bet is *ARM* & Huawei is betting big on that. This is also why mega corporations are virtual monopolies & indeed a bad thing, tangentially speaking.


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## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

This is one of those events that remind us (and should remind you all) that we're living in a world of conflicting interests. Is this (also) about being on top of the food chain? Of course. The question you need to be asking yourself, is do you want to eat or be eaten. And entirely unrelated to your personal opinion, by living in a Western country, you're part of it and yes you will be on 'a side' of these conflicts.

Huawei was becoming far too influential for our own good and the 5G rollout was going to be a major vehicle for China to deploy mass surveillance outside of its own borders. Even the slightest _chance_ of that happening should be a massive warning sign, and I'm glad to see it was, already over six years ago.

We can start worrying about our economy and innovation leadership and diplomacy after that. Make no mistake: China plays the game just like this and now experiences a major setback in their power creep.


Just a side note; this might even be bigger than just China. This might even be mostly about the US and geopolitical influence as a whole. The recent fleet movements towards Iran, the timing of these things is never coincidental, and already you can see this is a timing strategy that maximizes the impact and psychological effect. For Huawei, not only were they about to make the biggest deal in history, they were also the top smartphone company. If they'd been shot down three years earlier, the damage would've been minimal. But, we waited patiently for the opponent to yell 'All in!' to slam the door in its face.

Another important side note: Trump's term is coming to an end soon, and what better way than conflict to reinforce faith in your current POTUS.

Add all of those aspects up and you can see why the timing of this is so, so convenient.


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## Vya Domus (May 20, 2019)

No matter what the arguments are I can't help but think that this was done with the exclusive intention of driving Huawei out of business for the benefit of some of them competitors. After all they have seen one of the most rapid growths in the last 2-3 years that no one else could match, that must have annoyed one or two companies. Shitty anti-competitive practices are all alive and well it seems.


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## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> No matter what the arguments are I can't help but think that this was done with the exclusive intention of driving Huawei out of business for the benefit of some of them competitors. After all they have seen one of the most rapid growths in the last 2-3 years that no one else could match, that must have annoyed one or two companies. Shitty anti-competitive practices are all alive and well it seems.



That's just collateral really. Consider it bonus. We don't benefit a whole lot from Huawei apart from perhaps a little discount on a phone.


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## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> The recent fleet movements towards Iran


I'm not sure where the US is going with Iran but any war involving that country will be worse than Iraq+Afghanistan combined. Secondly ~ how can the US let murderous SA spread their Wahhabi ideology & then go after Iran, who btw kept their part of the bargain with the previous admin! For all their mistakes in this century, this will *Trump* them all


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## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> I'm not sure where the US is going with Iran but any war involving that country will be worse than Iraq+Afghanistan combined. Secondly ~ how can the US let murderous SA spread their Wahhabi ideology & then go after Iran, who btw kept their part of the bargain with the previous admin!



You can look towards John Bolton for answers. The man has a nice little history, its Powell v2. The man looks like a rat, talks like a rat, and acts like one.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> No matter what the arguments are I can't help but think that this was done with the exclusive intention of driving Huawei out of business for the benefit of some of them competitors. After all they have seen one of the most rapid growths in the last 2-3 years that no one else could match, that must have annoyed one or two companies. Shitty anti-competitive practices are all alive and well it seems.


The company that gains the most from this is ZTE.


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## Rahnak (May 20, 2019)

Just out of curiosity, the US has been going on about Huawei spying for China and whatnot for a long time now, but did they ever produce any solid evidence for the masses?


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## Fourstaff (May 20, 2019)

Lets see if this will result in a valid third alternative to Apple or Android.


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## the54thvoid (May 20, 2019)

As long as the CIA and MI5 can continue their covert surveillance and tech backdoors, we're all good. This isn't about security; it's about fear. The fear of losing power. 
China will not fail. USA will not fail. The world will.


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## siluro818 (May 20, 2019)

"To date, the Trump administration has not put out specific evidence against Huawei in a U.S. court of law, or the public domain."

Translation: there is no evidence whatesoever, and we're doing this for reasons that have nothing to do with national security or anyone's well-being.


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## FreedomEclipse (May 20, 2019)

China could just turn around and say they are no longer manufacturing or exporting China made goods to the US. There are a lot of tech companies that are basedin the US that have manufacturing plants in China because of cheaper labour and overheads.

If China pulls a move like this then it could be a tit for tat scenario


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## Deleted member 24505 (May 20, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Just don't buy Huawei and forget about it.
> 
> 
> Without wireless radios and an operating system, what do they have left to sell?  Look at Cuba and their 60s cars...this is pretty much what's going to happen to Huawei phones: stuck in time.  Yup, they'll be bankrupted.  And Trump isn't going to leap to their rescue like he did with ZTE.
> ...



Lmao, do you think huawei/china cannot develop its own, behave. Don't forget foxconn makes everything America sell, from iphones to xboxes and playstations. If America boycott china, who will make all this? American workers paid ten times what foxconn workers are, *don't* think so.


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## phill (May 20, 2019)

I wonder how it will fair over in the UK...  Me and P30 Pro seem to get along just fine ....


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## sweet (May 20, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> China could just turn around and say they are no longer manufacturing or exporting China made goods to the US. There are a lot of tech companies that are basedin the US that have manufacturing plants in China because of cheaper labour and overheads.
> 
> If China pulls a move like this then it could be a tit for tat scenario



There are hundreds millions of Chinese people rely on those plants. If they lose their jobs, it will be a huge social uprising for Communist China. Chinese government simply cannot afford that scenario.

Anyway, Huawei got banned because it's backed by Chinese government. Their lesser compatriots, like Xiaomi and Oppo, who are independent companies, love this news. They will be more than happy to bite huge marketshare from Huawei.



tigger said:


> Lmao, do you think huawei/china cannot develop its own, behave. Don't forget foxconn makes everything America sell, from iphones to xboxes and playstations. If America boycott china, who will make all this? American workers paid ten times what foxconn workers are, *don't* think so.


Cheaper labor in Vietnam, India, etc... will take care of that. In fact, big companies have already moved parts of their business out of China amid the Trade war.


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## Metroid (May 20, 2019)

> Sales of AMD processors will stop, too.



Anybody care to explain this sentence in the article?


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## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> No, innovation today needs money & experience/track record just as much as anything else. Take Intel, AMD, IBM for instance. There is no other uarch or processor comparable to their most powerful chips, no amount of education will get you past that. Now even if you come up with such a hypothetical design will it still beat Intel @5nm when that other chip is being built on 14nm? Same goes for QC & their wireless solutions. At this point China's best bet is *ARM* & Huawei is betting big on that. This is also why mega corporations are virtual monopolies & indeed a bad thing, tangentially speaking.


What you're describing is the effect of having a large library of tech patents, not experience or a track record of innovation. Patents can be bought - as most patents held by current large tech corporations are (through mergers and acquisitions). There is no other microarchitecture that can compete with X86 because developing a microarchitecture is very complex, yes, but also because the technology is extremely well guarded and licences are only awarded to a handful of actors (who then lock themselves into keeping them by innovating on top of the licence and licencing their innovations back). The thing is, turnover within these companies is enormous, and the engineers and other people involved are replaceable to a large degree. Of course there's the difficulty of finding equally qualified replacements (an issue with any highly specialized field), but given access to information and education, it's possible - just a bit slow. Availability of knowledge is the deciding factor, then comes money (which there certainly isn't a lack of in China), then comes specific people.



Vayra86 said:


> This is one of those events that remind us (and should remind you all) that we're living in a world of conflicting interests. Is this (also) about being on top of the food chain? Of course. The question you need to be asking yourself, is do you want to eat or be eaten. And entirely unrelated to your personal opinion, by living in a Western country, you're part of it and yes you will be on 'a side' of these conflicts.
> 
> Huawei was becoming far too influential for our own good and the 5G rollout was going to be a major vehicle for China to deploy mass surveillance outside of its own borders. Even the slightest _chance_ of that happening should be a massive warning sign, and I'm glad to see it was, already over six years ago.
> 
> ...


While I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis, the main issue is that the foundations of this thinking is _wrong_ (or, arguably, just really !#@%! dumb) even if world leaders tend to believe it. Fundamentally conflicting interests only exist if you believe nations are somehow able to exist entirely separately, which has never been true, and certainly isn't in our day. Countries are _intertependent_. Period. Sure, there are still some more powerful than others, and there is a serious lack of democratic agency in global politics (read: it's entirely nonexistent), but the ideological basis of viewing global politics as _competition_ rather than _cooperation_ is what causes garbage like this to happen. This is of course neither the US's nor China's fault alone, but rather a remnant of centuries-old nationalist thinking. Europe post-WWII is an excellent example of how changing this presumption can radically alter relations between countries with vastly different levels of influence, as the focus on interdependent trade relations and peaceful cooperation transformed the continent with the most frequent and large-scale wars over the past few centuries into the most peaceful continent. Ever. In the history of mankind. That's a _staggering_ achievement, and current right-wing politicians attempting to undermine this because a few dubious actors are challenging the system is ... idiotic. Competition (in general, but especially as reflected in current global capitalism) inherently has more losers than winners. The issue is that the world doesn't work that way - if other people lose, the winners inevitably lose as well. Maybe not initially, and maybe subtly, but cooperation gains everyone, not just a few. And sure, this will mean that the most powerful, who would likely have "won", can see themselves as "losing" because they're not running away with more than everyone else. But that's a dangerous, damaging, detrimental and delusional idea in a globally interdependent world. And we can't stop living in one just because we don't like it - at least not without also abandoning the products of this world, such as global industry. I seriously doubt the average Trump voter would support him if they were shown that a necessary consequence of following his ideology to its end is regression in pretty much all metrics, from wealth to food availability to technology to everything else we have and use in our lives.

Tl;dr: isolationism as a response to growing powers challenging the established world order is about as logical as cutting off your leg to stop a broken toe from hurting.


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## 64K (May 20, 2019)

Rahnak said:


> Just out of curiosity, the US has been going on about Huawei spying for China and whatnot for a long time now, but did they ever produce any solid evidence for the masses?



Doubtful we will get solid proof of it if it's true. Sometimes even telling people what they know will out their inside source of information and make them useless in the future.


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## Mephis (May 20, 2019)

Metroid said:


> Anybody care to explain this sentence in the article?



Yeah, it means AMD isn't going to sell them processors or gpus. I imagine that they primarily use Intel for their servers, workstations and laptops but I am sure that they have systems that use AMD.


----------



## Frick (May 20, 2019)

Now maybe they can stop marketing them so aggresively. Huawei marketing is everywhere. And they are immensively popular.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 20, 2019)

sweet said:


> There are hundreds millions of Chinese people rely on those plants. If they lose their jobs, it will be a huge social uprising for Communist China. Chinese government simply cannot afford that scenario.
> 
> Anyway, Huawei got banned because it's backed by Chinese government. Their lesser compatriots, like Xiaomi and Oppo, who are independent companies, love this news. They will be more than happy to bite huge marketshare from Huawei.
> 
> ...



So they will get everything made by Foxconn in those country's how? There are enough other country's other than America buying the stuff Foxconn make to secure the workers jobs. Unless the American company's cancel their contracts with Foxconn, but that will not happen either, as they could not get the products made any where else. Also hundreds of millions is a bit of an exaggeration


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 20, 2019)

tigger said:


> Wow the pitch forks and yokels are out in America. Considering Huawei buys $67 billion in components, it's pretty dumb. They will just save the money and develop their own.


Before you start slamming the U.S.., might want to do a bit of research, or even have been aware of current events for the last 8 months or so.  See below.


R-T-B said:


> Anyhow, this is more than just America,


As @R-T-B said.  They are in hot water with Canada already, and under investigation in the EU as well.

“It’s not just the United States or Canada that are problems for Huawei. The European Union has started looking at serious proposals that would mean trouble for it. Concerns in particular about China’s National Intelligence Law have spurred the EU to weigh what may amount to a total de facto ban on Huawei technology within the Union.”









						Huawei’s Legal Woes and Tech ’Decoupling’ Between China and the West
					

Huawei is just the beginning in a longer-term decoupling between the West and China.



					thediplomat.com
				






siluro818 said:


> Translation: there is no evidence whatesoever, and we're doing this for reasons that have nothing to do with national security or anyone's well-being.


Translation for the Criminal Justice or Foreign Relations uninitiated:  you don’t release evidence publicly until you have had a chance to prosecute in court of law or already take international action. How many world crises have happened in history that you EVER knew anything more than a tiny sliver of what happened behind the scenes? Sources are rarely revealed when the stakes are high.


----------



## chaosmassive (May 20, 2019)

> to create and exploit vulnerabilities in information and communications technology or services, with potentially catastrophic effects.



wow that is rich coming from Donald Duck Trump, when NSA spying on their own citizen 24/7, create spying tools from backdoor/OS vulnerabilities, which end up causing tremendous financial damages worldwide, and potentially costing human lives.

but we dont talk about that, do we?


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 20, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Before you start slamming the U.S.., might want to do a bit of research, or even have been aware of current events for the last 8 months or so.  See below.
> 
> As @R-T-B said.  They are in hot water with Canada already, and under investigation in the EU as well.
> 
> ...



The U.S.A is the crux of it, especially with the trade war too.


----------



## 64K (May 20, 2019)

chaosmassive said:


> wow that is rich coming from Donald Duck Trump, when NSA spying on their own citizen 24/7, create spying tools from backdoor/OS vulnerabilities, which end up causing tremendous financial damages worldwide, and potentially costing human lives.
> 
> but we dont talk about that, do we?



Do you not think the exact same things were going on under Obama? Every major country spies on every other country and on their own citizens especially with the constant threat of terrorism.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 20, 2019)

tigger said:


> The U.S.A is the crux of it, especially with the trade war too.


It is the crux of this week’s action and this article.  The EU has been investigating Huawei’s violations for a long time.  

Canada’s actions were predicated on Huawei’s relationship to the Cinesengovernment and their disregard of Iran sanctions the world agreed to. 

But believe whatever you want.  You can create whatever fiction you want to fit your narrative.


----------



## Shihab (May 20, 2019)

Rahnak said:


> Just out of curiosity, the US has been going on about Huawei spying for China and whatnot for a long time now, but did they ever produce any solid evidence for the masses?


That Russian, cybersec fella: Lol!


----------



## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> While I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis, the main issue is that the foundations of this thinking is _wrong_ (or, arguably, just really !#@%! dumb) even if world leaders tend to believe it. Fundamentally conflicting interests only exist if you believe nations are somehow able to exist entirely separately, which has never been true, and certainly isn't in our day. Countries are _intertependent_. Period. Sure, there are still some more powerful than others, and there is a serious lack of democratic agency in global politics (read: it's entirely nonexistent), but the ideological basis of viewing global politics as _competition_ rather than _cooperation_ is what causes garbage like this to happen. This is of course neither the US's nor China's fault alone, but rather a remnant of centuries-old nationalist thinking. Europe post-WWII is an excellent example of how changing this presumption can radically alter relations between countries with vastly different levels of influence, as the focus on interdependent trade relations and peaceful cooperation transformed the continent with the most frequent and large-scale wars over the past few centuries into the most peaceful continent. Ever. In the history of mankind. That's a _staggering_ achievement, and current right-wing politicians attempting to undermine this because a few dubious actors are challenging the system is ... idiotic. Competition (in general, but especially as reflected in current global capitalism) inherently has more losers than winners. The issue is that the world doesn't work that way - if other people lose, the winners inevitably lose as well. Maybe not initially, and maybe subtly, but cooperation gains everyone, not just a few. And sure, this will mean that the most powerful, who would likely have "won", can see themselves as "losing" because they're not running away with more than everyone else. But that's a dangerous, damaging, detrimental and delusional idea in a globally interdependent world. And we can't stop living in one just because we don't like it - at least not without also abandoning the products of this world, such as global industry. I seriously doubt the average Trump voter would support him if they were shown that a necessary consequence of following his ideology to its end is regression in pretty much all metrics, from wealth to food availability to technology to everything else we have and use in our lives.
> 
> Tl;dr: isolationism as a response to growing powers challenging the established world order is about as logical as cutting off your leg to stop a broken toe from hurting.



On a philosophical level, I agree. But the current geopolitical balance simply doesn't allow for that utopian view of the world. And it never did, really... Your example of post WWII era events was _also_ a response to a new threat: Soviet Russia.


----------



## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

64K said:


> Do you not think the exact same things were going on under Obama? Every major country spies on every other country and on their own citizens especially with the constant threat of terrorism.


"Constant threat of terrorism" should be in some giant, fat quotes. The very concept of a constant threat of terrorism is a propaganda tool for these same governments and agencies. Oh, and kind of besides the point, but said spying is explicitly and implicitly targeting leftists and non-whites, while it's well proven that white nationalist/right-wing terrorists are far more dangerous and kill far more people per year than any other terrorist group.  In other words, they're not even trying to hide how blatantly they're lying about the purposes of their surveillance. And yes, I'm talking about the US, if that wasn't clear.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (May 20, 2019)

The bottom line here is about security and the theft of IP, not just with the US but around the world. Huawei didnt get to where its at by being nice, coupled with the fact that the Chinese government has their hand in the cookie jar too. You can search for all the past "business deals" Huawei made that put tech in their claws, that still doesnt make them an evil entity as much as the ties it has with Chinese government do,  which is where all the security concerns comes into play. Anyone that thinks the US is wrong here, feel free to contact your congressman, but if you dont live in the US, feel free to keep bashing US, its what you do best.

I would rather the US walk on the side of caution and be proactive about its, and my, security rather than ask my forgiveness for being completely stupid later.


----------



## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> On a philosophical level, I agree. But the current geopolitical balance simply doesn't allow for that utopian view of the world. And it never did, really... Your example of post WWII era events was _also_ a response to a new threat: Soviet Russia.


The European response to the Soviet Union was to largely ignore them. Sure, we were mostly part of NATO and had closed-ish borders, but European peace post-WWII was _not_ due to a common enemy or any other such trivial idea. It was down to establishing explicit and multilateral interdependencies between countries, with the open admission that the dependencies existed and that all parties involved stood to gain from them. It also hinged on the realization from the more powerful countries involved that they would gain more long-term from cooperation despite the possibility of gaining more short-term without it - as the short-term plans inevitably would lead to escalation of conflicts and likely new wars, meaning that even the powerful would lose in the long term. It's not utopian, it's pragmatic. It does require willing and honest participation from a large amount of parties, but history has shown that this is possible.


----------



## 64K (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> "Constant threat of terrorism" should be in some giant, fat quotes. The very concept of a constant threat of terrorism is a propaganda tool for these same governments and agencies. Oh, and kind of besides the point, but said spying is explicitly and implicitly targeting leftists and non-whites, while it's well proven that white nationalist/right-wing terrorists are far more dangerous and kill far more people per year than any other terrorist group.  In other words, they're not even trying to hide how blatantly they're lying about the purposes of their surveillance. And yes, I'm talking about the US, if that wasn't clear.



Meanwhile in the real world hardly a week goes by that Muslims aren't killing innocent people en masse. Stereotypes are often based on facts. Of course they are being singled out. When the Muslims clean up their own house then there will no longer be a need for this.


----------



## john_ (May 20, 2019)

And that's how you eliminate the biggest threat for USA's security Apple's shareholders.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> while it's well proven that white nationalist/right-wing terrorists are far more dangerous and kill far more people per year than any other terrorist group


If well-proven, you would be well served in making your case by providing reputable sources.


----------



## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

64K said:


> Meanwhile in the real world hardly a week goes by that Muslims aren't killing innocent people en masse. Stereotypes are often based on facts. Of course they are being singled out. When the Muslims clean up their own house then there will no longer be a need for this.


And there comes the blatant racist generalization of a religion counting roughly a billion people. Yay! Earned you a report. News flash: people of all religions, skin colors, nationalities, etc. kill people, and a lot of them - regardless of affiliations - do this "in the name of" whatever religion they claim to belong to. Yes, there is more instability and violence in poorer regions of the world, particularly those that have been worn down by centuries of colonization, resource theft, and proxy wars - where the Middle East stands out somewhat, but a lot of that is due to Western media being extremely eager to share every time something bad happens there compared to a lot of the world. Christians have a long and well-documented history of mass murder in the name of their religion, and terrorists clearly and purposely framing themselves as "white" and "christian" are more of a danger in Western countries in the past decade than any other group. I'm not going to list any of these a$@holes here, but if you don't know what I'm talking about you ought to watch the news more. I could say the same right back at you: when white, christian, pro-gun rights people in the US "clean up their act", there'll no longer be a need for this. But of course, those are all "bad apples", loners who have no relation to any organization or ideology, they're just "crazy". Of course. Funny how phrasing and word choice can change how something is perceived.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 20, 2019)

john_ said:


> And that's how you eliminate the biggest threat for USA's security Apple's shareholders.


Again, another person who is not well-versed on the worldwide movement against Huawei.


----------



## stuartb04 (May 20, 2019)

phill said:


> I wonder how it will fair over in the UK...  Me and P30 Pro seem to get along just fine ....
> 
> Same.
> just got the P30 pro last month with EE.
> ...


----------



## phill (May 20, 2019)

Have the same phone with 3, seemed a decent step up to for the £9 extra a month.  That said, I must be mad for paying that much a month...  But for the camera and such, worth it as it saves me carrying around my DSLR...  

I look forward to seeing what happens


----------



## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> If well-proven, you would be well served in making your case by providing reputable sources.


This report gives a quite comprehensive overview of domestic terrorism in the US. Of course, you'll likely claim that the ADL isn't a reputable source - and if so: go away. They're as reputable as you get. This article also gives a good overview of the development of terrorism in the US (not just domestic) since 9/11. You could also go browse the Global Terrorism Database. No other group comes close in the sheer number of fatalities simply because 9/11 killed a shocking amount of people, but various branches of right-wing extremism (including neo-nazis, white identity terrorists, MRA-affiliated terrorists, anti-government extremists, and others) represent a very, very dominant portion of both total attacks, attacks injuring people, and attacks with fatalities.


----------



## 64K (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> And there comes the blatant racist generalization of a religion counting roughly a billion people. Yay! Earned you a report. News flash: people of all religions, skin colors, nationalities, etc. kill people, and a lot of them - regardless of affiliations - do this "in the name of" whatever religion they claim to belong to. Yes, there is more instability and violence in poorer regions of the world, particularly those that have been worn down by centuries of colonization, resource theft, and proxy wars - where the Middle East stands out somewhat, but a lot of that is due to Western media being extremely eager to share every time something bad happens there compared to a lot of the world. Christians have a long and well-documented history of mass murder in the name of their religion, and terrorists clearly and purposely framing themselves as "white" and "christian" are more of a danger in Western countries in the past decade than any other group. I'm not going to list any of these a$@holes here, but if you don't know what I'm talking about you ought to watch the news more. I could say the same right back at you: when white, christian, pro-gun rights people in the US "clean up their act", there'll no longer be a need for this. But of course, those are all "bad apples", loners who have no relation to any organization or ideology, they're just "crazy". Of course. Funny how phrasing and word choice can change how something is perceived.



I will tell you something and you may not believe it but it's true. A Muslim neighbor who used to live down the street from me went on a killing spree and killed 4 marines and a naval reservist at a recruitment center. He asked his minister beforehand if Allah would forgive him for his past drug use if he did this and his minister told him yes.


----------



## stuartb04 (May 20, 2019)

phill said:


> Have the same phone with 3, seemed a decent step up to for the £9 extra a month.  That said, I must be mad for paying that much a month...  But for the camera and such, worth it as it saves me carrying around my DSLR...
> 
> I look forward to seeing what happens




paying 54£ a month for the phone and a huawei tablet which isnt that bad of a deal really

yea the camera is something else....that zoom though!!!!!

was initially worried last night when reading about it...not so much now.


----------



## Valantar (May 20, 2019)

64K said:


> I will tell you something and you may not believe it but it's true. A Muslim neighbor who used to live down the street from me went on a killing spree and killed 4 marines and a naval reservist at a recruitment center. He asked his minister beforehand if Allah would forgive him for his past drug use if he did this and his minister told him yes.


Translated: "This one insane thing happened close to me, so I must then extrapolate that to apply to all people who I might associate with the people involved." See, that's some pretty seriously flawed logic. Yes, that is atrocious, and it's equally atrocious if a religious authority "blessed" it - but that doesn't in any way mean that Islam is a violent religion nor that all muslims are somehow affiliated with terrorists. If that was true, should we assume all single white men in their early 20s are mass murderers because of Elliot Rodger and the people who encouraged him to go on a killing spree? No. Extremists are extremists, and do generally not represent whatever group they might be associated with - unless their group is an extremist group, that is. Islam is not extermist islam, just as "single white men" are not MRAs or incels (and even among those hatred-driven groups there are entirely non-violent people, and I don't assume all MRAs to be potential mass murderers just because quite a few mass murderers have come from their ranks, and their ideology generally foments anger, self-hatred, hatred and violent rhetoric). See how easy that is?


----------



## phill (May 20, 2019)

stuartb04 said:


> paying 54£ a month for the phone and a huawei tablet which isnt that bad of a deal really
> 
> yea the camera is something else....that zoom though!!!!!
> 
> was initially worried last night when reading about it...not so much now.



What sort of contract did you get with it?  Data allowance etc?

I'm a little under that at £50 a month, but its a huge amount to spend out each month I feel..  

The zoom is awesome, 50x, try holding that thing steady lol  

As long as my phone works for the length of the contract, I'm not so worried about it at all...  I do wonder if the UK will follow the USA with the ban on it but what will be will be


----------



## stuartb04 (May 20, 2019)

phill said:


> What sort of contract did you get with it?  Data allowance etc?
> 
> I'm a little under that at £50 a month, but its a huge amount to spend out each month I feel..
> 
> ...



I got 60gb data on the phone and 2gb data on the tablet...but i can data share,so each month i put 10gb or so on the tablet. 60gb is too much really.
A 2 year contract is long.miss the yearly contracts.

im currently paying 120£ a month!!!
still paying for my step sons contract,but thankfully that ends soon.

Huawei so say have a plan 'b' as they have prepared for this to happen.
wether its there own O/S remains to be seen.

ios and android are getting a bit boring now. something fresh would be welcome.imo


----------



## GoldenX (May 20, 2019)

Cold War part 2.0, now with less nukes.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> This report gives a quite comprehensive overview of domestic terrorism in the US. Of course, you'll likely claim that the ADL isn't a reputable source - and if so: go away. They're as reputable as you get. This article also gives a good overview of the development of terrorism in the US (not just domestic) since 9/11. You could also go browse the Global Terrorism Database. No other group comes close in the sheer number of fatalities simply because 9/11 killed a shocking amount of people, but various branches of right-wing extremism (including neo-nazis, white identity terrorists, MRA-affiliated terrorists, anti-government extremists, and others) represent a very, very dominant portion of both total attacks, attacks injuring people, and attacks with fatalities.


Oh wow, you cite 9/11 like that was the last Musllim terrorist event.  They happen regularly, worldwide.  You are obviously an apologist.


----------



## phill (May 20, 2019)

stuartb04 said:


> I got 60gb data on the phone and 2gb data on the tablet...but i can data share,so each month i put 10gb or so on the tablet. 60gb is too much really.
> A 2 year contract is long.miss the yearly contracts.
> 
> im currently paying 120£ a month!!!
> ...



It's not too bad, I got away with unlimited everything since it was the same price for 12Gb or more for 30Gb or 100Gb..  Seemed daft to do anything different.  Sometimes 12Gb wasn't enough so glad I had the extra now  
I'm guessing the longer contracts are to try and cover the pricey phone costs..  I mean these P30 Pro's are what, £1200 I was told??  £100 a month??  I'm not sure people will want to spend that...

I was just talking to a mate at work about the OS this morning and such..  I agree, we do need a bit more choice I think as there's so much bloatware in some of the Android releases I'd spend 30 minutes uninstalling programs that I don't want or need..  great fun


----------



## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Translated: "This one insane thing happened close to me, so I must then extrapolate that to apply to all people who I might associate with the people involved." See, that's some pretty seriously flawed logic. Yes, that is atrocious, and it's equally atrocious if a religious authority "blessed" it - but that doesn't in any way mean that Islam is a violent religion nor that all muslims are somehow affiliated with terrorists. If that was true, should we assume all single white men in their early 20s are mass murderers because of Elliot Rodger and the people who encouraged him to go on a killing spree? No. Extremists are extremists, and do generally not represent whatever group they might be associated with - unless their group is an extremist group, that is. Islam is not extermist islam, just as "single white men" are not MRAs or incels (and even among those hatred-driven groups there are entirely non-violent people, and I don't assume all MRAs to be potential mass murderers just because quite a few mass murderers have come from their ranks, and their ideology generally foments anger, self-hatred, hatred and violent rhetoric). See how easy that is?



I'm going to have to stop you there... the Islam is a violent religion. Christianity is too. And both are equally bad at that part of their history. Historically, violence is inherent to the religious idea that there is only one truth. There is no place for another reality, so you're either with or against it.

The problem with Islam is that its behind the curve and its followers are also behind the curve. For Christianity, at least here in Europe, most countries decided to separate church and state. In many Muslim  countries, they haven't got that strict separation, in fact, Islam is still actively used to this day to exercise power and influence, win elections and maintain power and influence. Its a vehicle for that, first and foremost.

n the US, the separation of church and state is sort of 'halfway' through; every POTUS speech is still 'God willing' and there is a serious bit of Christian fundamentalism in power positions in the US. But its not integral to its foreign or domestic policy or democracy itself. However, this does explain why there is such a strong opposition to Islam, see my first two lines up  there. An outsider can easily identify US foreign policy as Christian oppression.

Regardless. We don't live in medieval times anymore, so yes, Islam stands out in this day and age for the way it tries to spread its ideology or the way it fights opposing ones, and the ideas of many sub ideologies within Islam - hell they even didn't get to the point where they stop shooting each other in the face, yet. The fundamental problem with Islam is a lack of reflection and I think that also clearly rings through in the example given by @64K . In Europe, we had big events that changed our perception of the place of religion in society. Islam has yet to experience that, and its followers so far seem largely unwilling to, the actual exception to the rule is the Muslim population of 2nd and 3rd generation in Western countries. _Those are the ones that will bring change_. And I hate to say this, but yes, that is a minority. What's missing is the uproar among all those other Muslims wrt terrorism. We never see or hear it - and the reason for that is that same lack of reflection.

As for right wing terrorism (or left wing, also not innocent) compared to religious terrorism... its equally threatening really... I don't think this should be a contest.

Wait. This is offtopic  I'm dropping this one now. I will say its not entirely fair to swing the report hammer around when you're entering dangerous territory yourself... You can expect a response.


----------



## enxo218 (May 20, 2019)

monopoly highlights and the problems of having a non diverse market range
American agression and Chinese dependancy in open view, I have no dog in this fight


----------



## Shihab (May 20, 2019)

stuartb04 said:


> Huawei so say have a plan 'b' as they have prepared for this to happen.
> wether its there own O/S remains to be seen.



The "operating system" is not the issue here, never was. Huawei would be adding too much cost if it went for its own OS, when a free(!) one is available and maintained by some of the brightest minds the industry has.
Exporting their homegrown, Gapps-replacement services is probably the safest bet. Go the Amazon way, so to speak.


----------



## illli (May 20, 2019)

"The UK and European Commission have separately conducted investigations into allegations of Huawei posing a data-security risk, and have both concluded to have seen no merit to the accusations. " 

really?   then why articles like this: https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/28/uk-report-blasts-huawei-for-network-security-incompetence/   "The latest report by a UK oversight body set up to evaluation Chinese networking giant Huawei’s approach to security has dialed up pressure on the company, giving a damning assessment of what it describes as “serious and systematic defects” in its software engineering and cyber security competence. "


----------



## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> the actual exception to the rule is the Muslim population of 2nd and 3rd generation in Western countries


Not necessarily, Muslims in the West are generally liberal & religious. When it comes to choosing between their religion & anything else the vast majority of them will still chose Islam ~ you can bet on that. The answer to this is less religion, tbf that applies to all religions around the world.

As for places like India, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia with a large base of Muslims ~ they are indeed progressing down the right path. Of course hiccups are there like Mr. lunatic Erdogan or some major policy reversals in places like Malaysia & Indonesia, vote bank politics in India. The thing is when you see wars like *Iraq, Syria* it's hard for the Muslim moderates here to steer the narrative away against Jihad ~ which to me is a huge problem in the way US has handled post Cold war era & Muslim nations. Muslims generally see themselves as part of a single unified body called *Ummah* & an attack on any of them is like an attack on all, except in case of Uighurs I guess.

The biggest problem is the *Wahhabi kingdom*, sub Saharan Africa, *Pakistan* & to a lesser extent Afghanistan. Here there's no (functional) democracy, economic growth, rule of law or *liberal* middle class. All of which leads to a negative feedback loop making more of the people extremists rather than moderates or centrists. Again this is a multi pronged war, with religion/poverty/nationalism on one side & progress on the other.


----------



## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

illli said:


> "The UK and European Commission have separately conducted investigations into allegations of Huawei posing a data-security risk, and have both concluded to have seen no merit to the accusations. "
> 
> really?   then why articles like this: https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/28/uk-report-blasts-huawei-for-network-security-incompetence/   "The latest report by a UK oversight body set up to evaluation Chinese networking giant Huawei’s approach to security has dialed up pressure on the company, giving a damning assessment of what it describes as “serious and systematic defects” in its software engineering and cyber security competence. "



They all have the same story really. From 2012 onwards, these are the same worries and while Huawei has always tried to keep everyone on board (with seemingly best intentions) this rabbit hole is deep. Very deep, and the real issue is that its nearly impossible to get the full scope of how leaky the hardware really is. At the same time, Western countries do require that certainty. That is why this is happening. China / Huawei banked on low price to push this through.


----------



## mashie (May 20, 2019)

It will be interesting to see if Huawei can supply any 5G networks going forward with these restrictions.


----------



## Sugarush (May 20, 2019)

On a more positive note - I really enjoyed the reference to Star Trek NG


----------



## M2B (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Muslims generally see themselves as part of a single unified body called *Ummah* & an attack on any of them is like an attack on all, except in case of Uighurs I guess.



I'm living in Iran and at least in my country that's not the case.
Belief in Islam is getting weaker and weaker here but of course the government doesn't like to show the truth.


----------



## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

I know that's a bit of a generalization but that's what I hear from Muslims in India or our immediate neighbors. Which is to say that the more religious you are the more inclined you'd be to the concept of Ummah, at least IMO & observation. The less religious Muslims are indeed more rational, moderate & peaceful than extremists on either end (left or right) of the spectrum.


----------



## GoldenX (May 20, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> The less religious Muslims are indeed more rational, moderate & peaceful than extremists on either end (left or right) of the spectrum.


Isn't that true for all religions?


----------



## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> Isn't that true for all religions?


True but like I said if someone attacks a Muslim, the more religious majority perceive that as an attack on their religion & Ummah. That's not the case with most other religions.


----------



## Vayra86 (May 20, 2019)

M2B said:


> I'm living in Iran and at least in my country that's not the case.
> Belief in Islam is getting weaker and weaker here but of course the government doesn't like to show the truth.



Well, I do believe Iran is also one of the most progressive Islamic countries in the region. You already were making the transition and then things took an unfortunate turn...

Either way, I do still believe we should get back on topic. Its a small miracle this exists here as it is


----------



## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

64K said:


> Do you not think the exact same things were going on under Obama?



Why does it have to be partisan?  I don't care who does it those kind of programs spying on US without warrants citizens I oppose.  That included Obama.


----------



## btarunr (May 20, 2019)

Sugarush said:


> On a more positive note - I really enjoyed the reference to Star Trek NG



TOS/TNG are OG Star Trek that continues to inspire. Discovery is for people grappling with identity crises.


----------



## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

64K said:


> Meanwhile in the real world hardly a week goes by that Muslims aren't killing innocent people en masse.



True of most major religions.  See the Lords Liberation Army as a counter example.  Great folks. /s



R0H1T said:


> The less religious Muslims are indeed more rational, moderate & peaceful than extremists on either end (left or right) of the spectrum.



This is true.  It's because a lot of old religious texts (including the bible) heartily endorse violence to solve social issues.  Taking them literally is dangerous, and that's extremism.

Lets just not fall into the us vs them mentality in regards to religion.  Fact: You can be a peacful or violent muslim/christisn/athiest and it really is that simple.

Oh wow, topic, sorry...


----------



## Tatty_One (May 20, 2019)

It is beyond me how this news topic has moved from a quite specific news piece to Muslim extremists, terror attacks from both external and internal organisations, the left, the right and dead people, so if I may, I suggest we move back on topic because reading much of this last page or so has been a painful experience.... thank you.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 20, 2019)

So, meanwhile back in Huawei land...


----------



## phill (May 20, 2019)

I like my phone !!


----------



## Rahnak (May 20, 2019)

I'm eagerly waiting for China's move now. I'm all up for halting exports of US products made in China. Got my popcorn ready.


----------



## btarunr (May 20, 2019)

Rahnak said:


> I'm eagerly waiting for China's move now.



I expect it to be outlawing Windows 10 and promoting the state-kosher version of Ubuntu (Kylin).


----------



## Rahnak (May 20, 2019)

btarunr said:


> I expect it to be outlawing Windows 10 and promoting the state-kosher version of Ubuntu (Kylin).


Windows telemetry does give them an excuse, I think. But it doesn't feel "splashy" enough, imo. I would be hilarious if they went after Apple, not to mention higher headline value/impact. And it'd be a tit for tat kind of move too.


----------



## btarunr (May 20, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> That...  is the sad outcome I see really.  East vs West closed and signed OS world in the future.
> 
> You want to write your own OS?  Ha!



The reason I expect MS Windows to take the fall is because it is America's greatest tech export consistently for the past 3 decades, and has "halo" value as something that has monopolized client computing world over. Huawei is supposed to be the pride of China's high-tech industry, their "halo" brand. The Chinese response will hence be political as much as it will be economic.


----------



## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

btarunr said:


> The reason I expect MS Windows to take the fall is because it is America's greatest tech export consistently for the past 3 decades, and has "halo" value as something that has monopolized client computing world over. Huawei is supposed to be the pride of China's high-tech industry, their "halo" brand. The Chinese response will hence be political as much as it will be economic.



And I know they've been pushing this.  Believe it or not I possess an early Loongson developer kit pilfered from a code bounty project, one of their first homegrown MIPS cpu families.  It's old but one of the things I had to do to earn it for free was port some open source software to gentoo/MIPS.  It was long ago but I believe the port was for a vector library.

They are really looking at a linux basterdized MIPS angle.  Probably because MIPS and windows don't mix.  Weirdly enough they at one point were recruiting western programers to do so and paying primarily in free devkits.

And this was circa 2012.

PS:  I still have the devkit, if it's of any interest to TPU.  Was about to throw it away.  It's a single core 800Mhz mips about the size of a textbook with a 120W "Great Wall" power adapter.  Free for postage.  It may need it's bios chip reflashed.  Shows evidence of an early AMD partnership too, as they made the chipset.


----------



## NastyHabits (May 20, 2019)

This will not end well.


----------



## timta2 (May 20, 2019)

Seems like a lot of dishonesty, corruption, and corporate protectionism, to me.


----------



## 荷兰大母猪 (May 20, 2019)

Well, both Xi and Trump will learn something.


----------



## R0H1T (May 20, 2019)

I think they already do ~ *wars*, of any kind, *are super profitable businesses*


----------



## Ubersonic (May 20, 2019)

The USA is currently playing with fire big time, right now it's esentially exploiting it's historical friendship with the EU in order to protect it from any repricussions to it's isolationist/protectionist attacks on China/Chinese companies.

Luckily for the USA (sadly for the rest of the world) it looks like it's going to get away with it for the forseeable future, however it's untenable for this to last forever, sooner or later we may see that the other countries of the world become fed up and we could potentially see the EU team up with the BRICs nations to sanction the USA and force it to engage properly with global trade instead of using it's influence/friendships to attack economic rivals it cannot compete with on a level footing.


----------



## SRB151 (May 20, 2019)

Jozsef Dornyei said:


> This is a strong step kicking Huawei. Might even bankrupt them.
> Strategically this is a very bad move.
> Chinese companies will not buy US technology parts and software as soon as they can develop anything what works instead.
> As China is the largest economy on the planet this move will kick US tech companies from China and all Chinese product.
> In 10 years time the US tech industry will be a shadow of todays strength.



Um, what do you think China 2025 or whatever year was all about? They've been determined to steal or extort tech out of every company they can for years, at which point they'll dump competitive parts on the market and put the US companies out of business anyway, as well as being self sufficient.  You need look no further than the metals industry for the template.  Everyone is crying about steel because we're dependant on Chinese steel and the American steel industry is a shadow of what it was.   There's something to be said for long term thinking over instant gratification.


----------



## R-T-B (May 20, 2019)

SRB151 said:


> American steel industry is a shadow of what it was.



I feel that's inevitable and the reason is simple:  Young people in America today do not want to work in Steel Mills.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

I think China's response will be to shift assets to ZTE and let Huawei burn.  Huawei is beyond redemption at this point and no one, save China, is going to cut them any slack.



btarunr said:


> The reason I expect MS Windows to take the fall is because it is America's greatest tech export consistently for the past 3 decades, and has "halo" value as something that has monopolized client computing world over. Huawei is supposed to be the pride of China's high-tech industry, their "halo" brand. The Chinese response will hence be political as much as it will be economic.


How many copies of Windows in China are actually legitimate (Edit: 5%)?  Investors don't seem very concerned which strongly suggests not many.


Reuters put up a lovely graphic of which US companies are mostly impacted by this:








						Huawei's American suppliers
					

Chinese telecoms equipment maker Huawei has a long list of American suppliers, potentially putting the firm at risk of a ZTE-style supply ban after the arrest of its CFO in Canada, who faces accusations that she misled multinational banks about Huawei's control of a company operating in...




					fingfx.thomsonreuters.com
				







As you can see, only NeoPhotonics is really vulnerable.  Huawei is losing access to ~23% of their parts.


----------



## Divide Overflow (May 20, 2019)

*China's gaze on Taiwan _intensifies_.*


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> They all have the same story really. From 2012 onwards, these are the same worries and while Huawei has always tried to keep everyone on board (with seemingly best intentions) this rabbit hole is deep. Very deep, and the real issue is that its nearly impossible to get the full scope of how leaky the hardware really is. At the same time, Western countries do require that certainty. That is why this is happening. China / Huawei banked on low price to push this through.


You must be kidding.

Huawei has been providing access to all their equipment source code and schematics, and for the last 5 years european officials have been trying to find those alleged backdoors and they didn't find anything.
There has been only a couple of issues in all this time:
- A local telnet root access to some of their equipment, only accessible physically.
- Their security patches and other updates are slow, so they have questioned the quality of Huawei's development methodology.

If that's all the bad things anybody can find about them with all this scrutiny, I'd say they are much much better than most american companies. Seriously. Don't forget that recently a secret telnet root account accesible via internet was found in Cisco equipment. If something like this were to be found in Huawei equipment they would be crucified by the media and veto'ed by all countries, but since it's Cisco... nobody cares.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

De dilemma's van telecombedrijven: wat als Huawei in het systeem zit?
					

Als KPN een cruciaal deel in zijn netwerk moet aanpassen, wil het in zee met de Chinese techgigant Huawei. Maar er is onrust, want hoe veilig is de...




					www.volkskrant.nl
				





FordGT90Concept said:


> *Secure bunker*
> In essence, the discussion is a technical problem: the devices and software from Huawei are so complex that nobody knows exactly how they work. In 2013 KPN uses a product from Huawei, the Uniform GateWay, in its own mobile network. A device where all data from KPN customers go. The telecom provider wants to know whether this entails safety problems. It would be an ideal place to spy, something that the Americans are already warning about.
> 
> First, two ethical hackers at KPN view the product for weeks. They find several holes in the security of the device - vulnerabilities that would also be found with other suppliers. Every product has its weaknesses.
> ...


Quoting for emphasis:
"But despite good contacts and intensive research in China, KPN experts do not know after two weeks whether the product is safe against espionage."

The source code is too complex and/or incomplete. No one has definitively said China can't use Huawei equipment to undermine national security because Huawei doesn't give enough time and resources to draw that conclusion (two weeks, psssh).  The fact Huawei goes to such great lengths to secure their source (literally creating a "bunker") and then adds time pressures on top...they're hiding a lot.

When US regulators demanded source code from Microsoft for Windows as part of an anti-trust settlement, Microsoft complied in full with no restraints. They even gave it to China in 2011.  Microsoft wants holes to be found and notification given so Microsoft can fix them.  Huawei has a culture of secrecy over public interest.  Huawei only agreed to the source code exposure as a publicity stunt.


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

Still better than the rest of the manufacturers: "Such a close cooperation between supplier and company is rare in the telecom world."

And those other manufacturers have much worse security problems, maybe even intentional backdoors, like Cisco.
Meanwhile, no one has been able to produce any evidence against Huawei to back the spying allegations.


This ban has only a couple of real motives:
- Huawei is privately owned by Huawei employees, and since they are skyrocketting, the US investors are mad because they can't buy a piece of the cake. I'll bet a change of ownership will be one of the US demands to lift the ban over Huawei, just like it was one of the conditions the US imposed on ZTE.
- Kirin processors. The US wants a backdoor in them, like they probably have on Intel/AMD/Qualcomm, etc. That's why until a couple of days ago the US only had a problem with infrastructure & handsets, and not other Huawei devices like laptops.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> Still better than the rest of the manufacturers: "Such a close cooperation between supplier and company is rare in the telecom world."


This is what they call propaganda.  When you see Huawei for what it is (an arm of the MSS), propaganda is to be expected.  Oh look, Germany is ringing the alarm bell too.



Endeavour said:


> And those other manufacturers have much worse security problems, maybe even intentional backdoors, like Cisco.


And they fix it when informed about it.



Endeavour said:


> Meanwhile, no one has been able to produce any evidence against Huawei to back the spying allegations.


Yes, they have, and it's classified.  If you don't have clearance, you can't see it.  If you have clearance and have seen it, you can't talk about what you saw.


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> This is what they call propaganda.  When you see Huawei for what it is (an arm of the MSS), propaganda is to be expected.
> 
> Yes, they have, and it's classified.  If you don't have clearance, you can't see it.  If you have clearance and have seen it, you can't talk about what you saw.


That's just pure speculation that contradicts all real published evidence.
Also most of the latest US PR has different wording. They are just fearmongering. "In the future they may do something we don't like" is not a valid argument to destroy a foreign company, more so when there is heavy oversight over their software.

I get that China is a police state etc. but they are playing super fair in the spying department (at least outside China), unlike the US whose companies are involved in constant privacy scandals. Also, you should also consider that Trump is destroying any trust non-american technology firms could have in the USA.



FordGT90Concept said:


> And they fix it when informed about it.


They fixed a huge backdoor with flashing neon signs pointing to it, wow, my trust in them has increased 1000000% /s


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> Huawei is privately owned by Huawei employees...


"It's complicated."  Shell companies usually are.



Endeavour said:


> I'll bet a change of ownership will be one of the US demands to lift the ban over Huawei, just like it was one of the conditions the US imposed on ZTE.


ZTE did not change ownership.  Trump reached a settlement with Jinping.  Congress wanted to destroy ZTE and it almost succeeded but Trump intervened likely to make China more amicable to a broader trade deal.



Endeavour said:


> Kirin processors. The US wants a backdoor in them, like they probably have on Intel/AMD/Qualcomm, etc. That's why until a couple of days ago the US only had a problem with infrastructure & handsets, and not other Huawei devices like laptops.


Another ARM processor, who cares?

NSA finds backdoors, doesn't request them.  To request is to expose which means it is fixed.  Lack of knowledge is power for the NSA.

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to "problem with infrastructure & handsets."




Endeavour said:


> ...they are playing super fair in the spying department (at least outside China)…


Excuse me while I ROFL.



Question: are you on MSS's payroll?


----------



## Readlight (May 20, 2019)

Mor loks like who can sel what. Others will ne hapy what can zte, huawei make.


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> "It's complicated."  Shell companies usually are.


LOL, if you are going to ban a company because they had financial backing from the government at some point, then you will probably need to ban most companies in the world (starting with almost all european ones), and also a lot of important american companies should be banned outside the US in that case.



FordGT90Concept said:


> ZTE did not change ownership.  Trump reached a settlement with Jinping.  Congress wanted to destroy ZTE and it almost succeeded but Trump intervened likely to make China more amicable to a broader trade deal.


They changed the board of directors as part of the agreement, adding obviosly at least one person with heavy ties to the US. If you think the new board doesn't have a nice US representation you are delusional. With Huawei, the board of directors are also onwers, so that's going to be troublesome.


FordGT90Concept said:


> Another ARM processor, who cares?


Yeah, who cares about arm-powered devices nowadays? It's not like almost all communications in the world are done through ARM powered devices. /s



FordGT90Concept said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to "problem with infrastructure & handsets."


The US only had a problem with Huawei suplying 5G equipment & infrastructure and handsets. Until a couple of days ago they never ever had a problem with their computers, obviously, because they use Intel/Windows so no lack of US backdoors there = no problem.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Question: are you on MSS's payroll?


lol, nope, just an european watching this stupid dick measurement contest between China and the USA while eating popcorn. Also, it sucks as much as watching the GoT finale because the users are the most affected.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> The US only had a problem with Huawei suplying 5G equipment & infrastructure and handsets. Until a couple of days ago they never ever had a problem with their computers, obviously, because they use Intel/Windows so no lack of US backdoors there = no problem.


USA's problem with Huawei and ZTE dates back to at least 2012. I gave a timeline of events in this post.



Endeavour said:


> ...the users are the most affected.


Only if they buy post-ban products and that's the intent.  Infringing Huawei device owners are basically unknowing accomplices in whatever Huawei is conspiring to do.  No users of hardware is the ideal outcome and not just for USA, for everyone that isn't China.


----------



## Nkd (May 20, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> This is one of those events that remind us (and should remind you all) that we're living in a world of conflicting interests. Is this (also) about being on top of the food chain? Of course. The question you need to be asking yourself, is do you want to eat or be eaten. And entirely unrelated to your personal opinion, by living in a Western country, you're part of it and yes you will be on 'a side' of these conflicts.
> 
> Huawei was becoming far too influential for our own good and the 5G rollout was going to be a major vehicle for China to deploy mass surveillance outside of its own borders. Even the slightest _chance_ of that happening should be a massive warning sign, and I'm glad to see it was, already over six years ago.
> 
> ...



This is so true. It's been evident that during a conflict people don't like to change presidents. If we get into it with Iran, Trump can book his 8 years already lol. I do think China would have loved to have an eye on everything, heck we would too on china. But I still don't know why we haven't seen anything other than just words, like no actual evidence of this. If its there why hasn't there been evidence brought forward? Its either this is more economical than anything or maybe we wanna reverse engineer shit. Hahaha


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

TL;DR, in Europe we know *for sure* with hard evidence that the US is spying on us. And profiting from it. China? pff... we don't know. Maybe? (probably yes, here Xiaomi is also super big and nobody is controlling them. Why? Maybe the US should look into them too.) But Huawei? Huawei has been complying with all requests from our governments and all of them seem to agree that there is no issue to be found. No spying with their devices going on. No backdoors found.
But despite all that, the US is hell-bent on destroying Huawei because they see them as a threat to their technology dominance over the world, and they don't care if they have to f**k over customers and even governments in the process. (need to remind you that the US threatened european governments to drop Huawei from their networks).

It's just... sad.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> TL;DR, in Europe we know *for sure* with hard evidence that the US is spying on us. And profiting from it. China? pff... we don't know. Maybe? (probably yes, who knows, here Xiaomi is also super big and nobody is controlling them. Why?. Maybe the US should look into them too.) But Huawei? Huawei has been complying with all requests from our governments and all of them seem to agree that there is no issue to be found. No spying with their devices going on. No backdoors found.
> But despite all that, the US is hell-bent on destroying Huawei because they see them as a threat to their technology dominance over the world, and they don't care if they have to f**k over customers and even governments in the process. (need to remind you that the US threatened european governments to drop Huawei from their networks).


Everyone spies on everyone else.  The difference is USA tends not to weaponize data (unless you did something to earn USA's ire like Iran and their uranium enrichment) and instead informs the target.  Some examples:








						US intelligence report had warned of terror attack in India 15 days before Pulwama
					

The study has also anticipated increased risk of communal violence during the Lok Sabha elections if PM Narendra Modi’s BJP “stresses on Hindu nationalist schemes”




					www.moneycontrol.com
				











						CIA 'warned Spanish police of possible Barcelona attack'
					

Catalan police were warned two months ago about a possible terrorist attack on Las Ramblas, Spanish media have reported.




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				











						Intelligence warned that Kenya terror attack was imminent | Fox News Video
					

Jennifer Griffin reports




					video.foxnews.com
				











						New Zealand was warned a terror attack was possible
					

But its government chose to ignore the warning.




					www.aljazeera.com
				




You bet Merkel was pissed when she discovered NSA had her number but did she do anything about it?  Not really.  Uncle Sam is a creepy guy but he's watching out for you.


China, on the other hand, is mostly after intelligence it can profit from (especially economic and defense).  It's parasitic; unfriendly.


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Everyone spies on everyone else.  The difference is USA tends not to weaponize data and instead informs the target.  Some examples:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks daddy USA.

But wait, that doesn't excuse that you're spying on your allies. Nice attempt though.

(also that's one of the reasons why the EU wants all their citizen's data acquired by US devices/software to stay in Europe.)


----------



## Sitohas Wang (May 20, 2019)

tigger said:


> Wow the pitch forks and yokels are out in America. Considering Huawei buys $67 billion in components, it's pretty dumb. They will just save the money and develop their own.


It seems like R&D do not cost money, Of course that not a problem as Huawei have all Chinese people's money to use

Forget the software problem, the Chinese company will be so happy to use the illegal copy of windows and office as it is totally no cost


----------



## Endeavour (May 20, 2019)

Sitohas Wang said:


> It seems like R&D do not cost money, Of course that not a problem as Huawei have all Chinese people's money to use


And they are using it. Kirin processors went from being pure shit just 2 years ago to almost match the latest Qualcomm flagship this year. They already have parity with Qualcomm in CPU raw performance and performance per watt, but they are still behind in GPU. And I believe they are already better with their NPU.

Meanwhile, Samsung Exynos processors still suck after all these years. FFS, Samsung has loads of cash and it's own fab and it's already behind Huawei in processors.


----------



## Capitan Harlock (May 21, 2019)

This is idiotic on any level.


----------



## Vayra86 (May 21, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> Thanks daddy USA.
> 
> But wait, that doesn't excuse that you're spying on your allies. Nice attempt though.
> 
> (also that's one of the reasons why the EU wants all their citizen's data acquired by US devices/software to stay in Europe.)



I totally understand your sentiment about this, but its just the way the world works. Deal with it...



Nkd said:


> This is so true. It's been evident that during a conflict people don't like to change presidents. If we get into it with Iran, Trump can book his 8 years already lol. I do think China would have loved to have an eye on everything, heck we would too on china. But I still don't know why we haven't seen anything other than just words, like no actual evidence of this. If its there why hasn't there been evidence brought forward? Its either this is more economical than anything or maybe we wanna reverse engineer shit. Hahaha



You're missing the point. Its not that evidence is found, its that the systems have the _potential_ to be a major threat, out of sight and out of reach. A lot of that has to do with the complexity involved. The basic principle is this: for critical infrastructure, we realize we really do need a _trusted party_. You don't find those on the soil of a competing world power.

This was inevitable. An example: 5G is a likely candidate for communication between future autonomous vehicles... Even that, lacking a suitable European alternative as it is today, feels a lot better to me when its controlled by a Western power we / I share values with.


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 21, 2019)

Valantar said:


> leaving them with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of unsellable stock. Great idea.


Losses that are fully tax deductible..


----------



## Amite (May 21, 2019)

Maybe if China would hire the CIA to install it's  routers then we could call it even.


----------



## GoldenX (May 21, 2019)

FrEe MaRkEt.
Decades of using China as the factory of the world ("but mah competitivity, i need those children building my products"), now that the giant is this big, countries realice the mistake they have made.
Now the world (specially third world countries, as always) suffers this economic war.


----------



## R-T-B (May 21, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> NSA finds backdoors, doesn't request them.



The snowden revelations pretty much showed that's not the case.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Another ARM processor, who cares?



It's actaully a pretty big field, ford.


----------



## Prima.Vera (May 21, 2019)

So when Lenovo would be next with it's BIOS spyware on most of the laptops, or VIVO, OPPO, Xiaomi or OnePlus who have similar spyware on their phones?


----------



## R0H1T (May 21, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> This ban has only a couple of real motives:
> - Huawei is privately owned by Huawei employees, and since they are skyrocketting, the US investors are mad because they can't buy a piece of the cake. I'll bet a change of ownership will be one of the US demands to lift the ban over Huawei, just like it was one of the conditions the US imposed on ZTE.
> - Kirin processors. The US wants a backdoor in them, like they probably have on Intel/AMD/Qualcomm, etc. That's why until a couple of days ago the US only had a problem with infrastructure & handsets, and not other Huawei devices like laptops.


That's laughable, why does it matter who owns Huawei & I'm pretty sure there are other firms which can give much higher returns, even to the US investors. You're making it sound as if Huawei is the Google (or Apple) of the next decade!

Again laughable argument, Huawei already sells devices with QC chips IIRC.


----------



## Prima.Vera (May 21, 2019)

btarunr said:


> TOS/TNG are OG Star Trek that continues to inspire. Discovery is for halfwits grappling with identity crises.


This is a bad attack. ST Discovery it's just original but not necessary bad. I personally FULLY enjoyed all Star Treks since STNG, including DS9, Voyager, Enterprise and now Discovery. ALL of them had have some good writings and story lines.


----------



## GoldenX (May 21, 2019)

People, Huawei has as many backdoors as any USA product. What a surprise.
"Don't buy their spyware, be a patriot, buy OURS".


----------



## Chomiq (May 21, 2019)

Prima.Vera said:


> This is a bad attack. ST Discovery it's just original but not necessary bad. I personally FULLY enjoyed all Star Treks since STNG, including DS9, Voyager, Enterprise and now Discovery. ALL of them had have some good writings and story lines.


"It's been a long road, getting from there to here..."


----------



## Sugarush (May 21, 2019)

Prima.Vera said:


> This is a bad attack. ST Discovery it's just original but not necessary bad. I personally FULLY enjoyed all Star Treks since STNG, including DS9, Voyager, Enterprise and now Discovery. ALL of them had have some good writings and story lines.



While I also like Discovery, TNG and DS9 (and partially Voyager) are my favourites, maybe because they dealt more with moral, philosophical and religious issues, while also having a lot of action. While the current generation of ST is a little light on that.


----------



## OSdevr (May 21, 2019)

I highly doubt we will get to see any evidence for the claims against Huawei, but not because it doesn't exist. If anyone would have found Chinese espionage it would be America's intelligence agencies, and there's no way they'll talk about it.

It's long been known that China conducts widespread industrial espionage against the US. It's about time something was done about it.


----------



## Endeavour (May 21, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> That's laughable, why does it matter who owns Huawei & I'm pretty sure there are other firms which can give much higher returns, even to the US investors. You're making it sound as if Huawei is the Google (or Apple) of the next decade!


It was growing at a surprising rate (+44% last year, vs. -11.5% from Apple or -5% from Samsung), about to overtake Apple as the second smartphone manufacturer in the global market. That's kinda huge. And that was just in smartphones. It was also doing much better than all the rest of competitors in network equipment, with most of european operators planning to use Huawei for their 5G deployment. And they were also booming in laptops (the Matebook X Pro is the best high end ultrabook in the market... and they just entered the laptop market a couple of years ago), etc.
Also, don't forget they are spending a lot in R&D. More than Apple and approaching Microsoft and Alphabet. If you think they are just another average chinese smartphone manufacturer you are very wrong.


R0H1T said:


> Again laughable argument, Huawei already sells devices with QC chips IIRC.


They have Qualcomm powered devices, but they are moving away from them to a full in-house Kirin lineup. They are also pressing TSMC to build exclusive fabs for Huawei in mainland China. Concerned enough yet? Well, the US government obviously is. They don't want another tech giant capable of rising even above Samsung, and coming from a country they don't trust. So... they are just trying to kill it or control it.


----------



## Shatun_Bear (May 21, 2019)

Shocking and disgusting from the US, basically wanting to keep tech a US-based cartel where prices and profits are kept sky high.

I loved the fact that Huawei were eating into Apple marketshare and consequently profit margins, meaning in the long run they'd have to lowerprices and we consumers benefit.



Vayra86 said:


> This is one of those events that remind us (and should remind you all) that we're living in a world of conflicting interests. Is this (also) about being on top of the food chain? Of course. The question you need to be asking yourself, is do you want to eat or be eaten. And entirely unrelated to your personal opinion, by living in a Western country, you're part of it and yes you will be on 'a side' of these conflicts.
> 
> Huawei was becoming far too influential for our own good and the 5G rollout was going to be a major vehicle for China to deploy mass surveillance outside of its own borders. Even the slightest _chance_ of that happening should be a massive warning sign, and I'm glad to see it was, already over six years ago.
> 
> ...



You really do drink the US propaganda koolaid don't you?

Here in the UK GCHQ did an assessment of the risk of Chinese surveillance over 5G and found no risk even though many wanted them to conclude there was.

What's dumb is this hurts you as a consumer. The US tech giants don't want competition from Huawei, it's as simple as that, US administration wants economuc supremacy, it's as simple as that. 'Security fears' is a smokescreen.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 21, 2019)

Shatun_Bear said:


> Here in the UK GCHQ did an assessment of the risk of Chinese surveillance over 5G and found no risk even though many wanted them to conclude there was.


Might want to check your facts...because they're wrong:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveyw...ecurity-engineering-belongs-in-the-year-2000/

TL;DR: It's full of holes and holes pointed out a year ago weren't fixed.


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## genralramius (May 21, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Might want to check your facts...because they're wrong:
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveyw...ecurity-engineering-belongs-in-the-year-2000/
> 
> TL;DR: It's full of holes and holes pointed out a year ago weren't fixed.



I had to register to answer you as I usually do not post, but to answer your facts
First Forbes is an American business.
Second it confronts to American interests, which are that Europe should not use cheaper options, but has to buy the most expensive shit that has as many backdoors as the Huawei stuff.
But you probably are American, so cannot do anything.
Me as an European citizen wants real competition. Not the so called competition that is paper thin.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 22, 2019)

Clearly you didn't even look at it.  They cite UK agencies directly:
BBC: Huawei's 'shoddy' work prompts talk of a Westminster ban (quotes director of GHCQ)
HCSEC: HUAWEI CYBER SECURITY EVALUATION CENTRE (HCSEC) OVERSIGHT BOARD, ANNUAL REPORT, 2019
Telegraph: Cutting out Huawei from 5G network would cost Britain £7bn

UK hasn't been as proactive as USA because of that last point.  Huawei is undercutting everyone else's prices and that naturally means 5G roll out will be more expensive if they are barred.  USA places the importance of security over cost because a lack of security may lead to extraordinary economic cost down the road.

Because these warnings have been in place for 7+ years now, Huawei has a minimal footprint in the USA but that was threatening to change with their cheapness and the 5G roll out.  Handsets aren't as big of a concern as network equipment here.

Judging by patents:








						Top companies leading 5G development - Netscribes
					

Key companies leading in the development and deployment of 5G products, services, and infrastructure based on their intellectual property analysis.




					www.netscribes.com
				



Samsung is #1 ("end-to-end")
Intel is #2 (focusing on infrastructure)
Nokia is #3 (mostly infrastructure)
Huawei is #4 (mostly infrastructure)
Ericsson is #5 (mostly infrastructure)
ZTE is #6 (mostly infrastructure)

Add all of those up, it's only 31% of the patents.


Huawei's and ZTE's advantage is being able to undercut competitors pricing because of China's illegal trade practices.


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## HTC (May 22, 2019)

Stupid question: what does this banning mean for those that currently have a Huawei smartphone?


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## FordGT90Concept (May 22, 2019)

Not much.  It's mostly going to affect new (post-ban) Huawei devices.


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## lexluthermiester (May 22, 2019)

HTC said:


> Stupid question: what does this banning mean for those that currently have a Huawei smartphone?


For people in the EU, such as yourself, the effect will be minimal.


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## HTC (May 22, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> For people in the EU, such as yourself, the effect will be minimal.



Mine isn't but several family members have one, which is why i asked.

My concern was if these phones were to stop functioning because of this whole mess.


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## lexluthermiester (May 22, 2019)

HTC said:


> Mine isn't but several family members have one, which is why i asked.
> 
> *My concern was if these phones were to stop functioning because of this whole mess.*


Phones don't magically stop working just because the company that made them stops supporting them. Example, ZTE. I still have a ZTE Maven2 that I use as a music player, even though ZTE was shutdown for a while and they don't support the phone. No sim card, just a microsd and it work fine. Effectively a micro-tablet.


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## Prima.Vera (May 23, 2019)

Too bad they are not listed on NASDAQ and similar. Would have been interesting to see how much their shares would have drop after the US ban.


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## Chomiq (May 24, 2019)

So this went from:


> "Huawei is something that is very dangerous,"
> "You look at what they've done from a security standpoint, a military standpoint. Very dangerous."


To:


> "If we made a deal, I could imagine Huawei being possibly included in some form or some part of it,"


very fast.








						Trump says Huawei could be part of trade deal
					

Huawei could feature in a US-China trade pact despite being "very dangerous", says the US president.



					www.bbc.com
				



If the deal goes through and somehow Huawei becomes a non-issue all of the other countries that banned them will look like Trump's puppets.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 24, 2019)

Look at the deal US struck with China over ZTE.  It made ZTE toothless as a security threat which is why they're more popular (at least in USA) than Huawei.  Thing is, ZTE didn't have much in the way of Chinese control over it--not like Huawei.  A similar deal will not be easily reached over Huawei.


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## Totally (May 25, 2019)

Endeavour said:


> It was growing at a surprising rate (+44% last year, vs. -11.5% from Apple or -5% from Samsung), about to overtake Apple as the second smartphone manufacturer in the global market. That's kinda huge. And that was just in smartphones. It was also doing much better than all the rest of competitors in network equipment, with most of european operators planning to use Huawei for their 5G deployment. And they were also booming in laptops (the Matebook X Pro is the best high end ultrabook in the market... and they just entered the laptop market a couple of years ago), etc.
> Also, don't forget they are spending a lot in R&D. More than Apple and approaching Microsoft and Alphabet. If you think they are just another average chinese smartphone manufacturer you are very wrong.
> 
> They have Qualcomm powered devices, but they are moving away from them to a full in-house Kirin lineup. They are also pressing TSMC to build exclusive fabs for Huawei in mainland China. Concerned enough yet? Well, the US government obviously is. They don't want another tech giant capable of rising even above Samsung, and coming from a country they don't trust. So... they are just trying to kill it or control it.



You just stated all that and the thought 'something isn't right' did not pop up once in the back of your mind?


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## R0H1T (May 27, 2019)

The timing couldn't have been worse better 

*Dracarys: Huawei troubles compounded as Mate 20 Pro goes up in flames*


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## Totally (May 27, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> The timing couldn't have been worse better
> *Dracarys: Huawei troubles compounded as Mate 20 Pro goes up in flames*



Fake news. As much as I recognize this as a as a high level smear campaign brought on by several powers against Huaweii, anyone feel otherwise please convince me otherwise. It's pathetic, westerners are more than happy to exploit China at the expense of jobs and talent weakening themselves in the process, now the Chinese are taking control this is their response since since they've long cut out their legs from under themselves. Although I can't ignore or say that the company's growth is not abnormal nor propped up by the resources of it's government. How fair is it if a government funnels nearly unlimited money into a company until it's number 1? B


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## lexluthermiester (May 27, 2019)

Totally said:


> Fake news.


Notebookcheck.net is *NOT* a fake news site.


Totally said:


> As much as I recognize this as a as a high level smear campaign brought on by several powers against Huaweii


First, spell checkers are your friend. Second, Huawei is a known conformist to the Chinese government. This is not a smear campaign. It is proper and appropriate action to protect citizens worldwide.

You need to do fact-checking before spouting gibberish..


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