# 5970 vs 5870 vs GTX480 in Tessellation....



## 20mmrain (Mar 7, 2010)

*I found this while looking around on the net. I haven't seen it posted here ..... so I hope it wasn't but anyway I found it fairly fun considering I like ATI! 

I also want to make you aware I found these benchmarks in another forum. So there is a chance they could be fake..... although just buy looking at them and by doing something similar with my 5870 and my Friends 5970 I doubt it. So take it with a grain of salt!  * 

http://www.overclock.net/graphics-cards-general/682409-5970-vs-gtx-480-vs-5870-a.html







*While the GTX480 seems to do very well in Tessellation it still doesn't hang with the 5970. It is closer than I expected but still not close enough!

Also I wonder if there is a reason Nvidia is only talking up the Tessellation on the GTX 480. I have a feeling the gaming quality is only comparable to the 5870. And if that is the case and the thermal rumors of the GTX 480 turn out to be true...... I doubt we will see a x2 verison Fermi any time soon. Which would mean ATI has finally after all this time pulled off a win.

The bad news is though if that is true...... we won't see prices drop anytime soon!

I also would like to add that I have a feeling that the cause of some of these dips are created by the fact that ATI still doesn't always have the best drivers! If they could straighten out that mess that would be half the battle right there!*


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

*LOL I thought this was way more interesting than not Oh well I guess I was wrong *


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## AlienIsGOD (Mar 8, 2010)

Meh i dont believe benchies from either company until the product is in normal reviewers hands/cards are available to public.  All these numbers Nvidia is feeding are of course gonna show their card to be better, who in there right mind would show a chart where the competitors card comes out on top


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## CDdude55 (Mar 8, 2010)

AlienIsGOD said:


> Meh i dont believe benchies from either company until the product is in normal reviewers hands/cards are available to public.  All these numbers Nvidia is feeding are of course gonna show their card to be better, who in there right mind would show a chart where the competitors card comes out on top



Agreed.

It's Always best to ignore these graphs that come out of the actual video card makers. We need these cards in the public's hands, then we can really see what's what. Until then, you should never go off of what Nvidia or ATI/AMD say, cause it's always the same old song and dance.(there own card comes out on top)


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## newtekie1 (Mar 8, 2010)

I wonder why people are thinking the GTX 480 is going to, or should, match the HD 5970.  That is TWO next generation ATi cores vs. one next generation nVidia.

A single GT200 didn't outperform two RV770s on the HD4870x2, but the GT200 was still one bad ass GPU.  The fact that a single fermi core can even hang with the HD5970 is an amazing thing, IMO.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 8, 2010)

whats odd is if NV is placing blame on OEMs, it sounds like they are really in trouble


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## surfingerman (Mar 8, 2010)

> I wonder why people are thinking the GTX 480 is going to, or should, match the HD 5970. That is TWO next generation ATi cores vs. one next generation nVidia.



because nVidia doesnt have one and teh king is the king, 2x or 1x, winner is winner


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## CDdude55 (Mar 8, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I wonder why people are thinking the GTX 480 is going to, or should, match the HD 5970.  That is TWO next generation ATi cores vs. one next generation nVidia.
> 
> A single GT200 didn't outperform two RV770s on the HD4870x2, but the GT200 was still one bad ass GPU.  The fact that a single fermi core can even hang with the HD5970 is an amazing thing, IMO.



If it can, then it must be one power hungry bastard. We just have to wait and see, Nvidia can tout all they want about it beating out the 5970, but lets see some real comparisons. But who knows, maybe Nvidia really stepped up there game by getting a look at the 5 series early and really pushing Fermi. But if it does stack up to a 5970, all i want to know is, how will it stay cool, and how much power will it be sucking up. Cause the 5970's are monstrous, sticking the equivalence or more power into a single chip is a mind blowing accomplishment.(at least for now it is)

But we just need to wait and see.


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## dir_d (Mar 8, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I wonder why people are thinking the GTX 480 is going to, or should, match the HD 5970.  That is TWO next generation ATi cores vs. one next generation nVidia.
> 
> A single GT200 didn't outperform two RV770s on the HD4870x2, but the GT200 was still one bad ass GPU.  The fact that a single fermi core can even hang with the HD5970 is an amazing thing, IMO.



The reason why is because of the size of the core on Nvidias chip. Its nearly twice as big as a Cypress core which would make a 5970 almost the same size as Fermi.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 8, 2010)

CDdude55 said:


> If it can, then it must be one power hungry bastard. We just have to wait and see, Nvidia can tout all they want about it beating out the 5970, but lets see some real comparisons. But who knows, maybe Nvidia really stepped up there game by getting a look at the 5 series early and really pushing Fermi. But if it does stack up to a 5970, all i want to know is, how will it stay cool, and how much power will it be sucking up. Cause the 5970's are monstrous, sticking the equivalence or more power into a single chip is a mind blowing accomplishment.(at least for now it is)
> 
> But we just need to wait and see.



This here reminds me of a repeat of the ATI R300 vs the GF 5 series, the 5 series was hot and power hungry where the R300 was Fast and Efficient.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I wonder why people are thinking the GTX 480 is going to, or should, match the HD 5970.  That is TWO next generation ATi cores vs. one next generation nVidia.
> 
> A single GT200 didn't outperform two RV770s on the HD4870x2, but the GT200 was still one bad ass GPU.  The fact that a single fermi core can even hang with the HD5970 is an amazing thing, IMO.



The funny thing I must stress here is that Nvidia is not trying and is not showing any competition with the 5970 or even the 5870 in gaming. All Nvidia has been talking about is the GTX 480's performance in Tessellation. 

Which I must say is very great according to their benches! 

But we also must remember gaming is not all about Tessellation. Sure it will become more and more important in the Future! But right now it isn't all that important. 
If you look at the parts of the Graph were Tessellation is not as present as others the 5870 more than keeps up with the GTX 480 and in some cases beats it.

I agree while the GTX 480 will probably be a marvel in GPU technology and will probably be a power house in future generations. This generation I don't think a single GF100 chip will be able to compete with a with a 5970.



> The reason why is because of the size of the core on Nvidias chip. Its nearly twice as big as a Cypress core which would make a 5970 almost the same size as Fermi.



That is a good point too! But also remember how much more tech they are trying to squeeze into that one chip then ATI is!


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## dir_d (Mar 8, 2010)

20mmrain said:


> That is a good point too! But also remember how much more tech they are trying to squeeze into that one chip then ATI is!



And thats exactly why Nvidia failed in my eyes. If they would have kept the tech down and went for performance this card would be faster than 5970 hands down. They should have waited till 28nm was up and ready to try and squeeze in the extra tech. I do believe that squeezing in more tech when 28nm is up and running is ATI's plan and i think it was very smart of them to do what they did this round.


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## nt300 (Mar 8, 2010)

This synthetic benchmarks, don't mean much. Nvidia should of designed 2 different types of video cards one base on Fermi and the other based for raw gaming performance. It looks like Nvidia will have to disable functions in Fermi to get performance and stability up.

This benchmark really make Nvidia look bad. HD 5970 will clobber Fermi when released.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

nt300 said:


> This synthetic benchmarks, don't mean much. Nvidia should of designed 2 different types of video cards one base on Fermi and the other based for raw gaming performance. It looks like Nvidia will have to disable functions in Fermi to get performance and stability up.
> 
> This benchmark really make Nvidia look bad. HD 5970 will clobber Fermi when released.



Exactly!!! What they should have done was implemented the Fermi technology for awhile in there workstation cards! After they got it down pat then throw it in.

I mean I know why they did it..... because to design two different GPU's is expensive and designing and using one will be a whole hell of a lot cheaper. So It might make so they can compete with ATI a little more this time! 

But because ATI basically is still using their older tech they can still out price war Nvidia. Nvidia's new Fermi card because of it being over engineered has a higher bottom then ATI!



> And thats exactly why Nvidia failed in my eyes. If they would have kept the tech down and went for performance this card would be faster than 5970 hands down. They should have waited till 28nm was up and ready to try and squeeze in the extra tech. I do believe that squeezing in more tech when 28nm is up and running is ATI's plan and i think it was very smart of them to do what they did this round.



Actually I read something very close to that same thing some where very recently! While ATI is going to pushing out a Refresh to hold people over..... they are supposed to be completely redesigning the Northern Island Series (aka 6800 series)

Of course ATI is very tight lipped about this...... and it is all just a rumor! But I posted awhile  ago a 28nm wafer that was supposedly from AMD/ATI made by GF. So maybe it's farther along then we think


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## wolf (Mar 8, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I wonder why people are thinking the GTX 480 is going to, or should, match the HD 5970.  That is TWO next generation ATi cores vs. one next generation nVidia.
> 
> A single GT200 didn't outperform two RV770s on the HD4870x2, but the GT200 was still one bad ass GPU.  The fact that a single fermi core can even hang with the HD5970 is an amazing thing, IMO.



I like apples to apples, 1v1 and 2v2, price etc comes into it, but there is no substitute for a single GPU card that has the same muscle as a dual GPU card.

Yes a single GT200 didn't outperform two rv770's, but they also came out a lot closer than 6 months apart, given Nvidia are now half a generation behind ATi, I think many users were expecting more.


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## Steevo (Mar 8, 2010)

20mmrain said:


> The funny thing I must stress here is that Nvidia is not trying and is not showing any competition with the 5970 or even the 5870 in gaming. All Nvidia has been talking about is the GTX 480's performance in Tessellation.
> 
> Which I must say is very great according to their benches!
> 
> ...



Not only that, but currently we can overclock our chips to 1Ghz on air, and more on water. I just loaded up my custom BIOS for mine, 1010Mhz on air at a mild voltage bump. Did a suicide run at 1070+ at 1.3 volts stable. Adjusting the powerpray settings did wonders for this cards ability to perform on the desktop and fixed flash artifacting.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

> The 400-series cards have an extensible tessellation size, meaning that the tessellation performance of an NVIDIA card can scale upward if the GPU demand for other routines scales downwards. ATI cards have a fixed-size tessellator.
> 
> This means that benchmarks like Heaven, which considerably weight tessellation in the score, will return scores that wildly favor NVIDIA cards even if the actual performance gap for gamers is small.
> 
> ...



This guy brings up interesting points here!!! I am sorry that I can link to this.... because as soon as I copied and pasted it I closed that side and I couldn't fins were I was again! So I am really sorry for that!
I am not that knowledgeable about tessellation and all of the inner workings of video cards. Could someone who maybe is comment on these statements above. 
Because if this guy knows what he is talking about..... it could so be that Fermi could do very well in Tessellation but crap in the re world with gaming!



> Not only that, but currently we can overclock our chips to 1Ghz on air, and more on water. I just loaded up my custom BIOS for mine, 1010Mhz on air at a mild voltage bump. Did a suicide run at 1070+ at 1.3 volts stable. Adjusting the powerpray settings did wonders for this cards ability to perform on the desktop and fixed flash artifacting.



You are right and while most things about Fermi are rumors right now .... from what I here Fermi doesn't sound like it is expected to be able to over clock very well at all! 

Due to heat and instability.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 8, 2010)

As I was saying earlier until people get the boards here or even Wizzard gets a Final Release unit (Not Engineering Sample/Test unit) the boards are smoke and mirrors. AMD stood up and Delivered now where is Nvidia that was supposedly Dominating with the GT200b.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

> As I was saying earlier until people get the boards here or even Wizzard gets a Final Release unit (Not Engineering Sample/Test unit) the boards are smoke and mirrors. AMD stood up and Delivered now where is Nvidia that was supposedly Dominating with the GT200b.



Nvidia is busy buying 5870's  to put their name on! That is where they are  J/K Bud


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## newtekie1 (Mar 8, 2010)

wolf said:


> I like apples to apples, 1v1 and 2v2, price etc comes into it, but there is no substitute for a single GPU card that has the same muscle as a dual GPU card.
> 
> Yes a single GT200 didn't outperform two rv770's, but they also came out a lot closer than 6 months apart, given Nvidia are now half a generation behind ATi, I think many users were expecting more.



That is true, but at the same turn, when RV770 was initially released, it still struggled against the almost year old G92...  At release, we only had the HD4870 and the HD4850, and the 9800GTX was better than the HD4850, hell even the 8800GTX using the almost 2 year old G80 was better than the HD4850... And the 9800GX2 outperformed both, so at the time ATi was an entire generation behind, but yet every still singed the praises of the awesome RV770...


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## douglatins (Mar 8, 2010)

phew i still ave the fastest card... Though i like that 480 is better than 5800


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## HalfAHertz (Mar 8, 2010)

I'd be perfectly happy if it was just as fast as a GTX295. That by itself would be a tremendous achievement  -making a single chip twice as fast as the previous one. But to be honest if Nvidia isn't careful with the pricing, they could slip easily and fail...


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## InnocentCriminal (Mar 8, 2010)

GTX480 Preview.


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## KainXS (Mar 8, 2010)

after thinkin about it i think im wrong lol, can someone tell me what 4 raster ops per clock really is.


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## Zubasa (Mar 8, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> That is true, but at the same turn, when RV770 was initially released, it still struggled against the almost year old G92...  At release, we only had the HD4870 and the HD4850, and the 9800GTX was better than the HD4850, hell even the 8800GTX using the almost 2 year old G80 was better than the HD4850...


I wouldn't say the G92 and the 8800GTX are better.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_4850/23.html


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## newtekie1 (Mar 8, 2010)

Zubasa said:


> I wouldn't say the G92 and the 8800GTX are better.
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_4850/23.html
> http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_4850/images/perfrel.gif



The problem with the early HD4850 benchmarks was the rather old 175 drivers used with the nVidia cards, while rather new drivers were used with the ATi cards.

If you look at some of the later reviews, once W1z switched to the newer 177 drivers, the performance complextion changes:







After that, I don't think there is a review done by W1z that shows the HD4850 beating the 8800GTX and 9800GTX.


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## Zubasa (Mar 8, 2010)

The thing is ATi drivers tends to be even worst at launch 
These cards are all within a few percent of each other in terms of performance anyways.
*I really don't see much point going RV770 vs G92 in a thread about the next generation.*


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## GSquadron (Mar 8, 2010)

I have heard that the new ati strategy for this year is that it will try to enforce the drivers, so the upcoming drivers are getting more better than just better


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

Aleksander Dishnica said:


> I have heard that the new ati strategy for this year is that it will try to enforce the drivers, so the upcoming drivers are getting more better than just better



Actually if you ask me.... that probably is ATI's biggest downfall! Their drives! 

I have said it before and I will say it again..... If ATI would spend a good couple months between drivers releases to insure that they get it right. I would be happier with that then releasing a driver every month just for the sake of releasing a driver.

That is one thing Nvidia does have better then ATI..... a better programing driver team!

I'm sorry ATI ..... Jay Marsden is not getting it done. He is better than what you used to have, but he is still a long way off from being where it should be!

Not to mention that all the drivers suggestions at ATI seems to fall upon deaf ears!


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## GSquadron (Mar 8, 2010)

I only forgot to mention that ati is trying to create its own physics team!
A good strategy that will let ati become better than Nvidia
If the cards ati has for now, are compared to the cards of nvidia, than at least a new programmer will make the 5870 with new drivers compare to what nvidia pretends to sell its gtx 480 for 600$ for extremely much more less. What is known for now is that ATI hardware are much more better than nvidia's cards. This is the truth, even if i have a nvidia card or if i am an amd fun boy, does not demolish this. There was an interesting material in anandtech that mentions what are the weak points of ati and nvidia both. Nvidia is always trying to create bigger chips, rather than ATI which spent a month minimizing its chip. One very week point nvidia has for me, is spending money in publicity. A real secret was that ati always was the first to make the jump before nvidia, which turned out the best thing this time with 5xxx series, as the chips nvidia is creating are having the same problems ATI had with 40 nm technology with 4770. The chips are much hotter and cost much more than nvidia's enginners thought. Normaly ATI is one step ahead of nvidia. If nvidia pretends to be better than ATI and seeing how ATI makes its chips and trying to copy them, i think this is a cunning move. Anyone thought what would happen if ATI does not make new chips what would happen to NVIDIA?????   
Anyway these are some secrets which the whole world did not know first.


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## erocker (Mar 8, 2010)

This Unengine bench and graph is old news and has been rehashed over and over again. Jaredpace posted some real benchmarks that weren't released by Nvidia and is much more interesting: http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=117000




Aleksander Dishnica said:


> I only forgot to mention that ati is trying to create its own physics team!



Not correct, ATi is using an open physics program, it is not theirs.


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## GSquadron (Mar 8, 2010)

Usually my mistakes become reality for example the pci-express 3.0 with sandy bridge


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

> This Unengine bench and graph is old news and has been rehashed over and over again. Jaredpace posted some real benchmarks that weren't released by Nvidia and is much more interesting: http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=117000



Yes the GTX 4*0 vs. 5870 Graphs are old news..... but the graph I have up is a GTX 480 vs. 5870 vs. 5970.

So this is why I started this thread..... also I saw a hug amount of people talking about the Fermi release from the Nvidia side of the isle but I was also interested to hear what the ATI people thought or predicted.

That is where the difference is. I didn't look at your link you posted too long.... so I might be wrong saying this..... but I didn't see anything comparing the GTX 480 to the 5970.

That is more what I am interested in with this thread! I found it funny that there has been tones of speculation that we would see a battle between the GTX 480 and 5970. When in fact it looks like the battle might be more between a GTX 480 and a 5870 *Not* a 5970.

****EDIT***

I take that back! I saw one comparison to the 5970 I was wrong. Although those are some good finds in that thread. But I still think this thread is relevant considering it is in tessellation and comparison to the GTX 480 and the 5970

I also would like to add after going through those bench marks at that thread. I am still not impressed. A figured 10% to 15% performance increase with a single GTX 480 over a sinlge 5870. Shoot I can reach that with an over clock. Also am fairly sure that if ATI does release a 5000 series refresh sometime in the near future...... they could easily achieve that if not way more. Not to hot for a six month wait and 50% larger chip area!

But there goes my hopes for any price drop by ATI *


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## Blacklash (Mar 8, 2010)

Guess we will see. I prefer a single strong GPU.

If the 480 is only 15% faster than my overclocked 5870, I'm skipping it. We have to be talking about 40% or better in some scenarios for me to bother.


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## KainXS (Mar 8, 2010)

15% faster than your *overclocked* 5870

well it depends, the scores on this bench should represent a stock 5870 therefore a GTX480 based on this is not going to be 15% faster than your *overclocked* HD5870

what I want to know is the core clocks and how they overclock, as I like to overclock the crap out of a card and stick with it for a while, like my GTX and GS


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## erocker (Mar 8, 2010)

20mmrain said:


> Yes the GTX 4*0 vs. 5870 Graphs are old news..... but the graph I have up is a GTX 480 vs. 5870 vs. 5970.
> 
> So this is why I started this thread..... also I saw a hug amount of people talking about the Fermi release from the Nvidia side of the isle but I was also interested to hear what the ATI people thought or predicted.
> 
> ...



I agree, but from the other reports the GTX480 was done with v1.1 while the ATi cards were done with v1.0 of the benchmark. Is this graph different?


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## 20mmrain (Mar 8, 2010)

erocker said:


> I agree, but from the other reports the GTX480 was done with v1.1 while the ATi cards were done with v1.0 of the benchmark. Is this graph different?



No I heard the same thing....I also heard when using the 1.1 version there is up to a 30% increase in performance. 
If that is true the would keep the 5870 still at par with the GTX480  Sneaky Sneaky!

When is that new version supposed to release have you heard???



> Guess we will see. I prefer a single strong GPU.
> 
> If the 480 is only 15% faster than my overclocked 5870, I'm skipping it. We have to be talking about 40% or better in some scenarios for me to bother.





> 15% faster than your overclocked 5870
> 
> well it depends, the scores on this bench should represent a stock 5870 therefore a GTX480 based on this is not going to be 15% faster than your overclocked HD5870
> 
> what I want to know is the core clocks and how they overclock, as I like to overclock the crap out of a card and stick with it for a while, like my GTX and GS



I think he meant that .... why would you spend $600 dollars more on a new video card .... when instead you can just over clock your 5870 and get the same if not more performance. Even with that if you think about it..... most 5870's are able to over clock 20% more on stock voltages. Thats not including the out of the ordinary ones that might be able to go even higher on stock voltages. With that said if rumor are meant to be believed ... the GTX480 is said not to be a very good over clocker. So even if you over clock a GTX 480 10% it is still possible to be able to be met by a over clocked 5870 @ a 30% over clock. 

And if you want to take the "Buying another video card route" then why spend $600 dollars to do it. Why not spend $400 dollars to $350 dollars (by then) to buy another 5870. Then be able to beat a GTX 480 by probably close to 50% with out even having to over clock you Video cards.

Unless Fermi releases with a 40% performance increase over the 5870 or unless it comes out priced at $350 to $400 dollars. I can't see it making a real dent in the market. So many people have already invested in the 5800 series..... that it would be pointless to start all over again.... unless your are building from scratch.


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## Zubasa (Mar 8, 2010)

erocker said:


> This Unengine bench and graph is old news and has been rehashed over and over again. Jaredpace posted some real benchmarks that weren't released by Nvidia and is much more interesting: http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=117000


The only catch about those benchmarks is that most of them are done in 2560x1600 with 4~8x AA, except Vantage. 
Could it be the extra memory the GTX 470 has influenced those results?


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## nt300 (Mar 9, 2010)

It does not matter who is faster it all has to do with price and performance. ATI can always come out with other faster card tomorrow if they want to. Big deal. If GTX 480 cost $600 who going to buy? Nobody


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 9, 2010)

there were certainly many who bought the 8800GTX and Ultra for those prices


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## 20mmrain (Mar 9, 2010)

nt300 said:


> It does not matter who is faster it all has to do with price and performance. ATI can always come out with other faster card tomorrow if they want to. Big deal. If GTX 480 cost $600 who going to buy? Nobody



+1 



> there were certainly many who bought the 8800GTX and Ultra for those prices



Yeah but things were way different back then! It's not like ATI had an equivalent card back then for a lower price.

Now it would be the 5870 who is maybe 15% slower and has already sold over 2,000,000 units to enthusiasts.... and will probably lower their prices after Fermi's release making it look more attractive to buy another one..... vs. a card that is only 15% faster and has been riddled with problems, is over 6 months late..... and you would have to spend $600 dollars to start all over again.

It seems things might have changed allot this round!


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## Blacklash (Mar 9, 2010)

Guess I put that poorly. I was meaning to refer to reports that are coming out that a stock 480 is 15% faster than a stock 5870 in many scenarios. If performance in the heaven bench around the dragon is accurate the 480 may be twice as fast in some very heavy tesso scenarios. Some of that may be coming from nVidia using a later version of the bench. If most of its muscle is restricted to that its appeal may be limited due to the low number of games out that are currently using DX11.

Surely you will be able to overclock the 480. The question is how much and how will it compare to an overclocked 5870 in most titles. If its average shake out to be a +15% advantage 90% of the time regardless, I probably won't bother with the 480. Likely I'll wait for more DX11 titles to flood the market then consider what is out at that time.

Right now something as weak as a 5830 can push Alien vs Predator @ 1920x1200 in DX11. 

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews.php?reviewid=937&pageid=7

The same may be said for Dirt2.

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews.php?reviewid=937&pageid=8

Even a 5770 has a decent showing here.


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## nt300 (Mar 11, 2010)

Blacklash said:


> Guess I put that poorly. I was meaning to refer to reports that are coming out that a stock 480 is 15% faster than a stock 5870 in many scenarios. If performance in the heaven bench around the dragon is accurate the 480 may be twice as fast in some very heavy tesso scenarios. Some of that may be coming from nVidia using a later version of the bench. If most of its muscle is restricted to that its appeal may be limited due to the low number of games out that are currently using DX11.
> 
> Surely you will be able to overclock the 480. The question is how much and how will it compare to an overclocked 5870 in most titles. If its average shake out to be a +15% advantage 90% of the time regardless, I probably won't bother with the 480. Likely I'll wait for more DX11 titles to flood the market then consider what is out at that time.
> 
> ...


Nvidia not telling the whole story. Stock 480 is 15% faster than a stock 5870 in SOME scenarios. 480 runs a lot hotter, something like 80C+ at idle so fan will spin loud according to net rumors. Its also not fair for Nvidia to use older ATI drivers to compare the benchmarks that they released again rumors from Nvidia boys that work in the company. I don't know, we need to see when the card gets released. Why is Nvidia not letting review people test the cards out? 

Nvidia claims the Fermi is the best ever Gaming Graphics Card in the world. That is a big claim for a card that they are affraid to let people test before it s release.  HD 5970 is the best gaming card in the world, can 480 beat it? Can Fermi beat it? We will find out when release in late March. But I have feeling it will get further delayed imo


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## Zubasa (Mar 11, 2010)

nt300 said:


> Nvidia not telling the whole story. Stock 480 is 15% faster than a stock 5870 in SOME scenarios. 480 runs a lot hotter, something like 80C+ at idle so fan will spin loud according to net rumors.


I can haz Jumbo Jetz?


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## Tatty_One (Mar 11, 2010)

surfingerman said:


> because nVidia doesnt have one and teh king is the king, 2x or 1x, winner is winner



I think the word is "yet".... just like when the HD5870 was released, ATi didnt have a dual GPU card.... thats the way it happens normally.  Whether this is true or not.... it's the pricing that counts, seeing as only like 1% of consumers buy a dual GPU card NVidia dont even actually need to build one, the key is the pricing/performance in the mid and mid/high range cards.... the wars for the lower end cards will come a bit later


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## Tatty_One (Mar 11, 2010)

nt300 said:


> Nvidia claims the Fermi is the best ever Gaming Graphics Card in the world. That is a big claim for a card that they are affraid to let people test before it s release.



Do Ati and NVidia allow testing of their cards during NDA? ..... I didnt think so.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 11, 2010)

Tatty_One said:


> I think the word is "yet".... just like when the HD5870 was released, ATi didnt have a dual GPU card.... thats the way it happens normally.  Whether this is true or not.... it's the pricing that counts, seeing as only like 1% of consumers buy a dual GPU card NVidia dont even actually need to build one, the key is the pricing/performance in the mid and mid/high range cards.... the wars for the lower end cards will come a bit later



Yeah but if they did release a GX2 version in the future.... It would have to be one hell of a card! I don't think a scaled down GTX460 would be able to cut it!

All ATI would have to do then is just bump the 5970 's clocks up to even a normal 5870's clock (like they are already doing!) To kill it (GTx495).

Even to get a regular 5870 to be able to beat the GTX 480 all they would need is a bump to over 1 Ghz...... it looks like.

I Guess we'll have to see


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## Tatty_One (Mar 11, 2010)

20mmrain said:


> Yeah but if they did release a GX2 version in the future.... It would have to be one hell of a card! I don't think a scaled down GTX460 would be able to cut it!
> 
> All ATI would have to do then is just bump the 5970 's clocks up to even a normal 5870's clock (like they are already doing!) To kill it (GTx495).
> 
> ...



Yeah but it's more complex than that, apart from the obvious that no doubt the 480 will overclock, most people dont overclock, so if that just leaves factory overclocks then that will never be a reference standard, purely because generally factory overclocked cards come from the highest binned chips, these are probably only 5-10% of the lot, that other 90-95% of the chips may well not sustain the additional voltage of even just decent overclocks to make them competative..... anyways, it's all just speculation until the damn things arrive..... the sooner the better, if only to see if the wait was worthwhile (which I doubt).


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## Blacklash (Mar 12, 2010)

nt300 said:


> Nvidia not telling the whole story. Stock 480 is 15% faster than a stock 5870 in SOME scenarios. 480 runs a lot hotter, something like 80C+ at idle so fan will spin loud according to net rumors. Its also not fair for Nvidia to use older ATI drivers to compare the benchmarks that they released again rumors from Nvidia boys that work in the company. I don't know, we need to see when the card gets released. Why is Nvidia not letting review people test the cards out?
> 
> Nvidia claims the Fermi is the best ever Gaming Graphics Card in the world. That is a big claim for a card that they are affraid to let people test before it s release.  HD 5970 is the best gaming card in the world, can 480 beat it? Can Fermi beat it? We will find out when release in late March. But I have feeling it will get further delayed imo



I guess we will see sooner or later. I've owned a good deal of cards from both ATi and nVidia. I've had good experiences with both companies. I adored my manually overclocked 8800 GTX. That's the card I've owned for the longest period of time, bar none. 

I like my manually OCed HD 5870 and am not hurting for performance. The 480 is going to have to impress me quite a bit to bother with making the investment.

Graphics card history for me,

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=1803276&postcount=201


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## 20mmrain (Mar 12, 2010)

Tatty_One said:


> Yeah but it's more complex than that, apart from the obvious that no doubt the 480 will overclock, most people dont overclock, so if that just leaves factory overclocks then that will never be a reference standard, purely because generally factory overclocked cards come from the highest binned chips, these are probably only 5-10% of the lot, that other 90-95% of the chips may well not sustain the additional voltage of even just decent overclocks to make them competative..... anyways, it's all just speculation until the damn things arrive..... the sooner the better, if only to see if the wait was worthwhile (which I doubt).



Yeah it is all just speculation..... But ain't it fun???


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## Super XP (Mar 12, 2010)

Blacklash said:


> I guess we will see sooner or later. I've owned a good deal of cards from both ATi and nVidia. I've had good experiences with both companies. I adored my manually overclocked 8800 GTX. That's the card I've owned for the longest period of time, bar none.
> 
> I like my manually OCed HD 5870 and am not hurting for performance. The 480 is going to have to impress me quite a bit to bother with making the investment.
> 
> ...


 You already bought into this generation of graphics, the HD 5870. I don't see the need forking out a lot of money for the GTX 480 whether its a little faster or not. Remember its still the same Gen as the ATI cards this time around.
The best bet would be to just pick up another HD 5870 providing prices drop and you would blow anything NVIDIA has to offer out of the water


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

Super XP said:


> You already bought into this generation of graphics, the HD 5870. I don't see the need forking out a lot of money for the GTX 480 whether its a little faster or not. Remember its still the same Gen as the ATI cards this time around.
> The best bet would be to just pick up another HD 5870 providing prices drop and you would blow anything NVIDIA has to offer out of the water



Unless he would benefit from CUDA.


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## bobzilla2009 (Mar 13, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Unless he would benefit from CUDA.



but even then, surely it would be cheaper to buy a gtx260 or something similar when they go down in price and put them together? as opposed to selling the hd5870 and then buying a gtx 480?


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## 20mmrain (Mar 13, 2010)

bobzilla2009 said:


> but even then, surely it would be cheaper to buy a gtx260 or something similar when they go down in price and put them together? as opposed to selling the hd5870 and then buying a gtx 480?



+1 <----- he's got a point!


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## bobzilla2009 (Mar 13, 2010)

with regards to the OP, just ran a unigine benchmark at their toned down settings (version 1.0, im pretty sure nvidia used 1.01 or something too, and no AA! what's that about? just because it'll stutter and all the fanboys will cwy), and the difference is even less impressive, my card when overclocked handily beats the gtx 480 about the head (i'm talking 40-60% fps boosts in some places and <20% for the most part, which begs the question that they may have gimped the hd5870 results) for about 50% of the demo, and runs within 20-30% in the most tessellation intensive parts.


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## CDdude55 (Mar 13, 2010)

bobzilla2009 said:


> with regards to the OP, just ran a unigine benchmark at their toned down settings (version 1.0, im pretty sure nvidia used 1.01 or something too, and no AA! what's that about? just because it'll stutter and all the fanboys will cwy), and the difference is even less impressive, my card when overclocked handily beats the gtx 480 about the head (i'm talking 40-60% fps boosts in some places and <20% for the most part, which begs the question that they may have gimped the hd5870 results) for about 50% of the demo, and runs within 20-30% in the most tessellation intensive parts.



^All lies until the card is actually released and tested in consumer machines. Until then, everything is either a crock of garbage or a rumor.


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## bobzilla2009 (Mar 13, 2010)

indeed, although why would they release graphs on a video if it was worse than real world performance? we can only assume this is the best the gtx 480 offers


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## DirectorC (Mar 13, 2010)

Driver hacking always nets considerable performance gains for new cards, particularly in nVidia's case.

I still say the verdict isn't out.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 13, 2010)

All Video card companies put their best foot forward when they are about to release a card. Look at that Graph ATI released awhile back before the 4830 was released. It showed way more performance gains then it really had. 

I don't doubt for one second that Nvidia did what they could to make it just barley fair enough to run the test. 
Meaning sure they might have been run on the same settings. But for all we know the 5870's test was run at 2560x1600 while the GTX 480's test was run at 1920x1200. 

Or the 5870 was run on the 1.0 version of Heaven and the GTX 480 was run on the 1.1 version. 

Or it could even have been the GTX 480 was over clocked.... or maybe not even over clocked but the fact that Nvidia hasn't decided what the final clocks will be they could have had their stock clocks way higher then what it will be released at.

My point is of course Nvidia is going to make them selves look great! They would be stupid if they didn't! 

But just imagine.... if this is Nvidia trying to make them selves look great ..... then that is really sad the performance they are getting when even putting their best foot forward with Fermi!


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## Super XP (Mar 13, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Unless he would benefit from CUDA.


Ahh yes didn't think about that. 


DirectorC said:


> Driver hacking always nets considerable performance gains for new cards, particularly in nVidia's case.
> 
> I still say the verdict isn't out.


Agreed. Don't know why NVIDIA would hack a benchmark to benefit Fermi because Fermi is eventually going to get released and many reviewers get there hands on it, LOOK OUT NVIDIA, let the truth be told. If Fermi does perform as it should then congrat's.


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## Wile E (Mar 13, 2010)

bobzilla2009 said:


> but even then, surely it would be cheaper to buy a gtx260 or something similar when they go down in price and put them together? as opposed to selling the hd5870 and then buying a gtx 480?





20mmrain said:


> +1 <----- he's got a point!



No, because most CUDA apps don't let 2 cores work on the same project. AKA: No CUDA SLI.


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## human_error (Mar 13, 2010)

Wile E said:


> No, because most CUDA apps don't let 2 cores work on the same project. AKA: No CUDA SLI.



I believe what they meant was keep the 5870 for rendering graphics and run the 260 with the hacked nvidia drivers to do the CUDA calculations, not 2x260s.


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## Wile E (Mar 13, 2010)

human_error said:


> I believe what they meant was keep the 5870 for rendering graphics and run the 260 with the hacked nvidia drivers to do the CUDA calculations, not 2x260s.



Ah yes, you are right. I was referring to CUDA apps tho, not Physx. There's no benefit to having the ATI card is CUDA is your concern.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 13, 2010)

*Well Guys I found out the secret reason For the GTX 480 running So Warm!!!*

*The Reason for the GTX 480 running so warm.... Was Because Nvidia came up with a new technology never before tried on any video card!!!

Here it is the Easy Bake Oven Option!!! 

Now while gaming you never have to get up and cook food for your self!!! We know how pesky and anoying that is!!!

Thank you Nvidia keep the great Ideas coming!*







*I just thought it was extremely important to share this with you! Now you can do High End Computations, Video Game, And Cook with your Video card!

Genius Pure Genius!*


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## GSquadron (Mar 13, 2010)

^ Ahahahahahahahahahahaha


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## Super XP (Mar 14, 2010)

Wow, not bad I am going to put in a pre-order as soon as it becomes available to do so. I love what NVIDIA did with its GTX 480 thingy. I plan on cooking and gaming all the time now


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## Tatty_One (Mar 14, 2010)

Super XP said:


> Wow, not bad I am going to put in a pre-order as soon as it becomes available to do so. I love what NVIDIA did with its GTX 480 thingy. I plan on cooking and gaming all the time now



And in the winter it will keep you warm, less heating needed in the home..... there it does save energy over ATi!!


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## 20mmrain (Mar 14, 2010)

Super XP said:


> Wow, not bad I am going to put in a pre-order as soon as it becomes available to do so. I love what NVIDIA did with its GTX 480 thingy. I plan on cooking and gaming all the time now



That's the same thing I said LOL

But in all seriousness though..... I wouldn't really care how hot it got! As long as it was stable, the heat was well contained, and it could beat on any other video card out there.

It looks like an alright card if all it had to deal with is tessellation. But that's not the only thing it will have to deal with. If there is no tessellation present it looks like the 5870 would be more then capable of keeping up with it if not beating it.



> And in the winter it will keep you warm, less heating needed in the home..... there it does save energy over ATi!!



How come I didn't think of that??? Maybe it is more energy efficient then ATI after all. No more heating bill you can lower your carbon foot print! LOL


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## nt300 (Mar 14, 2010)

Tatty_One said:


> Do Ati and NVidia allow testing of their cards during NDA? ..... I didnt think so.


ATI had both the HD 4800 and HD 5800 cards out to reviewers weeks before they released them or before retailers could sell them. I remember Anantech, Toms Hardware, Guru3D and a few more had test samples delivered by AMD weeks before they launch the cards.
Fermi is not this way at all, NV is keeping them until they get sold in stores which make me believe NV is having problems with the cards and don't want people to know what is really wrong with them until they release or NV needs more time to fix what is broken. This is speculation but where are the reviews for them


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## Tatty_One (Mar 14, 2010)

nt300 said:


> ATI had both the HD 4800 and HD 5800 cards out to reviewers weeks before they released them or before retailers could sell them. I remember Anantech, Toms Hardware, Guru3D and a few more had test samples delivered by AMD weeks before they launch the cards.
> Fermi is not this way at all, NV is keeping them until they get sold in stores which make me believe NV is having problems with the cards and don't want people to know what is really wrong with them until they release or NV needs more time to fix what is broken. This is speculation but where are the reviews for them



Having them but not publishing reviews before an NDA is lifted is a different thing, unless of course you are saying the NDA was lifted weeks before the cards official release and therefore there were actually legit reviews out weeks before?  As I understand it, the 4870 was released on 25th June 2008, Anandtech's review was also dated 25th June? ....

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3341


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## 20mmrain (Mar 14, 2010)

Tatty_One said:


> Having them but not publishing reviews before an NDA is lifted is a different thing, unless of course you are saying the NDA was lifted weeks before the cards official release and therefore there were actually legit reviews out weeks before?  As I understand it, the 4870 was released on 25th June 2008, Anandtech's review was also dated 25th June? ....
> 
> http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3341



Official reviews no..... I agree I don't know of many out before hand. But......So called "Leaks" on the other hand..... there where tones of.

We knew how the cards were supposed work and how they would perform before they released.

Fermi is not even close to this way. So either they have some really amazing performance. Or they are having huge performance problems that Nvidia doesn't want us to know about.


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## Tatty_One (Mar 14, 2010)

20mmrain said:


> Official reviews no..... I agree I don't know of many out before hand. But......So called "Leaks" on the other hand..... there where tones of.
> 
> We knew how the cards were supposed work and how they would perform before they released.
> 
> Fermi is not even close to this way. So either they have some really amazing performance. Or they are having huge performance problems that Nvidia doesn't want us to know about.



I agree completely, I was meerly questioning the "reviews"........ and whilst I agree there were and have been leaks for ATi.... at the time of those leaks we never actually knew they were good or BS, just kind of like this thread (and others ATM)..... I assume that everyone prefers these "leaks" or decent info before a card is released.... personally I would rather hear nothing until it's release so i can judge my future card strategy on facts..... at the end of the day, the purpose of a "leak" is to stop you buying the "other sides" card because this really super dooper fast card is coming....Nvidia cant do that because ATi beat them out of the blocks by some margin, either that or fermi is just crap


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## 20mmrain (Mar 14, 2010)

Tatty_One said:


> I agree completely, I was meerly questioning the "reviews"........ and whilst I agree there were and have been leaks for ATi.... at the time of those leaks we never actually knew they were good or BS, just kind of like this thread (and others ATM)..... I assume that everyone prefers these "leaks" or decent info before a card is released.... personally I would rather hear nothing until it's release so i can judge my future card strategy on facts..... at the end of the day, the purpose of a "leak" is to stop you buying the "other sides" card because this really super dooper fast card is coming....Nvidia cant do that because ATi beat them out of the blocks by some margin, either that or fermi is just crap



LOL Not me.... I was one of those kids that went sneaking around for my Christmas gifts. I like hearing the speculation for one reason. 
Video cards are allot of money! I want to hear if it going to be worth upgrading or If my money can be better spent else were. 

Like for instance I was using a GTX285 FTW and a HIS4890 Turbo in my systems before the 5870 came out. 
Because of all the leaks I made the great decision to save up the money to purchase a 5870. I don't regret it. 
Sure leaks always can't be trusted..... and some would say I was stupid for saving the money to buy a card just on leaks. 
But because the leaks that were released were very believable ..... I knew that they would most likely be right.

Now for this time with the GTX480 vs. the 5870. I have been listening to the leaks.... and have decided not even to bother.
Why because what little leaks there have been are completely unbelievable. Like the Rumors that the a single GTX 480 will almost be twice as powerful as the 5870 and actually beat the 5970.
Plus I know if I bought a GTX 480 in another 4 to 5 months ATI will come out with their refresh (5890) or their Northern Islands (6870) and totally kill the GTX 480.

So either way I think my decision this round was a total win. 

Not to mention the past 4 rounds I have made my decision this way. And 3 out of those 4 times it was correct! Gosh darn that 2900XT LOL

But I know what your saying bud! It is all still just speculation!


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 14, 2010)

If a board is constantly delayed I will skip it totally and not waste the money as there are obviously Problems with it.  Its like this you show up late to a fight you lose by default.


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## 20mmrain (Mar 15, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> If a board is constantly delayed I will skip it totally and not waste the money as there are obviously Problems with it.  Its like this you show up late to a fight you lose by default.



I like this quote! "You show up late to a fight you lose by default" Nice way of putting it Bravo!


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 15, 2010)

It goes hand in hand with Showing up late to work too, You lose by having to do other mundane tasks. That or you lose your job or receive paperwork for it.


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