# PSU Guide



## panchoman (Sep 13, 2007)

In my opinion, the most vital component of a computer is the power suppply unit or PSU. Many times when a psu fails, it produces a voltage spike that can damage or even short out other parts of your system. thats why buying a quality Psu is very important. There are 2 parts to this guide, part I is a simplified version of part II, which is more technical and goes into the depths and explains why i suggested what i did in part I. 

* I. PSU's simplified (under construction)*
Heres some stuff you want to look for in a psu: 

first off, you want a psu from a good company, heres a list of good companies: (note that the number order doesn't matter)

Antec(Neohe, Truepower trio, earthwatts, solution, basiq, & quattro series) 
Akaska
Bfg
Corsair
Enermax*
Enhance
ePower
Fsp/Forton/Sparkle 
Muskin
Ocz
Pc Power & Cooling
Scythe
Seasonic
Silverstone
[ABS] Tagan
Zalman

Wattage: Use this calculator to determine how much wattage your psu should have: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp. please note that the calculator will overexaggerate the wattage, but you should buy a psu with the wattage suggested because you want to have a few extra watts in the case that you upgrade, etc. 

Amperage: For a single video card system, you want to have about ~20-35 amps depending on how many things you have in your system.(generally amd systems require more amperage, and you want more amps if you have all the dimm slots full,etc.) you want to have about ~40+ amps for a multi video card system(sli/crossfire).
​

*II. The Nutshell Expanded.*

Here are some important things to look into for psu's:

Wattage:You want to make sure that the PSU you're getting had enough power to run your system. eXtreme has an excellent PSU calculator, you can find the lite version here:
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp This calculator will overexaggerate the wattage but this is a good thing, because . electronics are not ideal and you always want to have extra head room. capacitors(caps) will degrade over time and loose their holding capacity, and therefore, the capacity of the psu will diminish overtime. 

 Amps: heres some good amp amounts: for a standard system(mid tower case) you want a combined amperage of ~25 amps on the 12v rail. for a high end system (full tower case), you want a combined amerpage of ~30 amps on the 12v rail. for a sli/crossfire system, you want a combined amperage of ~40 amps on the 12v rail. 

Sadly there is a major problem about the psu wattage and amperage. you cannot trust the psu label most of the time. first of all, there are 2 main types of wattage that you may find on the label. the first one, is the peak wattage. yohttp://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?p=583442#post583442
Upgrade for an old PC - techPowerUp! Forumsu can only run at this wattage for a very short time and possibly cause damage to the psu running at this wattage. the second one, is the maximum continous wattage. this is the higher wattage you can continously run at. Another thing is, at what temperature are these wattages determined at? Some brands determine the wattage at unrealistic temperatures such as 0C whereas other companies determine the wattage at realistic temperatures such as 40-50c, which would be around the actual operating temperature of a PSU. so which do you pick a psu with a peak wattage of 500w @ 0C or a psu with a max. continous wattage of 500w @50c? now the problem is, you wont be offered that question when going psu shopping. Another thing is that the labels can just be plain wrong. for example, the amps stated may added up to be way more then what the wattage is stated, and this can be determined using the simple formula, Wattage=Amperage*Voltage (W=AV),(voltage being 12v,3v,5v,etc.)  for example, a label might say that it can supply 380W of power over 2 12v rails, each one carrying 20A. however by plugging the wattage and voltage into the formula we get V=~32amps. so while the rails may be able to carry 20A each, you cannot expect more then 32 Amps, and that is 32Amps assuming that your psu is running at the temperature that was used to determine the numbers on the label and assuming that the label is for the maximum continous wattage. some companies such as PC Power & Cooling are very confident in their products and clearly state "470W @ 40C (520W peak)" so that you know at 40C, you'll be able to get a full 470W out of the psu with a peak wattage of 520W. Here you can also see the big gap between the maximum continous wattage and the peak wattage.

PFC: its always a good thing to have active PFC, PFC or Power Factor Correction helps improve the efficency of a PSU, so that your PSU uses less electricity. With active PFC, there is also no need to set the voltage, it will automatically correct itself
Passive PFC is not very efficent, and it cannot use the full potential of the ac line. Passive PFc requires you to set the voltages as well. While PSu's with Active PFC are more expensive to build, they are definently a must for high performance systems that eat lots of energy, because you definently want to save on your electricity bill. oh and in europe, you're required to have some sort of PFC in your PSU.

Modular Cabling: Modular cabling is always something that PC enthusists want. with modular cabling, most cables other then the 20+4 pin, 4 pin cpu, etc. come seperate from the PSU. with modular cabling, you only need to use the cables which you want. the rest of the cables can stay outside of the case, which will help improve your airflow. While modular cabling does improve airflow, they limit power by increasing the electrical resisitance, in fact the voltage drop can be as much as that which would occur in 2 feet of standard wire. Worst of all though, modular plugs utilize delicate pins that can easily loosen, corrode, and burn, creating the potential for a major system failure.

Rails: While many psu's are multi rail, it is better to get a single rail system because with a single rail, the psu can transfer 100% of the 12v output of the psu to the computer, whereas in a multi rail system, you can face up to 30% distribution loss due to underutilized rails. lets say for example lets say rail 12vr2 is assigned to work for the cpu, and lets say the rail carries 17Amps of power, but the cpu only uses 7A of power, that 10amps in lost, whereas in a single rail system, the system draws from only one rail so the power loss is not there. also, lets say you have a grafix card that required 20A, but the rail its using is 17A, you have instability and problems like that, thats why for a sli/crossfire system, you definently want a single rail psu, because everything draws from the single rail, which has all the power of the psu. whereas if you're trying to sli/crossfire on a quad rail system, which has like power of the psu split up, that 1/4 of the power of the psu might not be able to power the sli/crossfire grafix cards. 

The OEM: The most important factor to look for in a Psu is the OEM or original equipment manufactures.Most Psu's are rebranded OEMs, and very few companies make their own PSUs. here are some OEM Gudelines: 

OEMS that make very good PSU's: 


Seasonic (usually the most expensive Psu's are seasonics, seasonic also sells their own PSu's, but many times its better to get a rebaged seasonic instead). common brands that use Seasonic: PC Power & Cooling, Corsair,etc.

Forton/Fsp/Sparkle(owned by fsp)(they have a controlling interest in 3Y) . they sell their own psu's as well. but here are some common rebadged fsp Psus: OCz, Sparkle, Zalman

Topower/epower(topower's retail brand) These Psu's are very good, and usually a lot cheaper then seasonics, and they are more common. some common rebadged topowers: BFG, Muskin, Ocz, scythe, Tagan

Enhance (many repuatble brands, but i dont know much about enhance)They sell their own psu's as well.  Common rebaged enchance PSU's: akaska, high wattage cooler masters, silverstone zeus,strider,and element series, xclio stablepower,

[*]Seventeam They are a small oem that make excellent psu's, however they do not market their own psu's. Common rebadged seventeam PSU's: Silverstone Decathalon and Olympia series, some Cooler Master psu's, and they have a sprinkle of psu's in ultra, which why some ultra psu's are very good, while others are like... 

[*] Etasis  They are another small oem that make excellent psu's, they do market their own psu's but i've never seen them so your better off with the Silverstone Zeus and Nightjar series, which are rebadged Etasis psu's.

OEMs that sometimes produce decent PSu's, but you should stay away from: 

Channellwell while they produced the notorious smartpower series, they also produce the very good thermaltake toughpower series, and have recently been making corsair psu's. They're overall a good company with a bad past, good recommend their newer units such as corsair & Thermaltake. 

OEMs to stay away from: 

Andyson(very notorious due to hiper psu's)

superflower (xion psus are decent..) 

youngyear (the apevia psu's they make are crazy good)
 

Heres an incompletely list of Brands, and their Oems. 

Color Coding Scheme: 

Green= Very good
Red= stay away
purple= Good PSU, but made by a bad oem
Blue= Good company, but the products are mixed.
*= note
**= my comment.

*Aerocool*
Known Manufacturers - Andyson
Specific Units

    All units - Andyson E239028

*Andyson*
Known Manufacturers - Andyson
Specific Units

    All units - Andyson E239028

*Antec*
Known Manufacturers - Channelwell, Enhance, FSP, Seasonic
Specific Units:

SmartPower series - Channelwell E176105 - discontinued cause it was a crappy product. everyone is being issued neohe's from the antec rma department.
 TruePower II series - Channelwell E176105
Phantom series - Channelwell E176105
 NeoHE series - Seasonic E104405
TruePower Trio series - Seasonic E104405
Earthwatts series - Seasonic E104405
Solution (SU) series - Seasonic E104405
Basiq series - FSP
Quattro series - Enhance E166947

_*E176105 is actually Antec's own UL number - some units appear to be registered under this number, others under the number of the OEM._

*Akasa*
Known Manufacturers - Enhance
Specific Units:

All units - Enhance E166947

*Allied*
Known Manufacturers - L&C
Specific Units:

All Units - L&C E214301

*Apevia/Aspire* 
Known Manufacturers - Youngyear, Wintech, Real Power Pro. **while the reviews are very good for these products,and they look good, and are very well cooled with nice blue leds,etc.,not much is known about the oem's hence the purple.**
Specific Units

AS Prefix - Youngyear E126556
Iceberg series (IB Prefix) - Youngyear E126556
PFC Prefix - Youngyear E126556
 MR Prefix - Youngyear E126556
WIN Prefix - Wintech
CW Prefix (Turbolink on label) - Real Power Enterprise

*Apex*
Known Manufacturers - L&C
Specific Units

AL Prefix - L&C E214301
SL Prefix - Soltech E223918

*Solytech are a division of Deer

*Asus* 
Known Manufacuters - Acbel Polytech
Specific Units

All units - Acbel Polytech 


*Athena Power*
Known Manufacturers - Sun Pro, Topower
Specific Units

AP-MP4ATX25 - Sun Pro E210743
AP-MPS3ATX30 Sun Pro E210743
AP-P4ATX42F Sun Pro E210743
AP-MPS3ATX40 Sun Pro E210743
AP-MP4ATX40 Sun Pro E210743
AP-P4ATX50F12 Topower E130843

*BFG*
Known Manufacturers - Topower
Specific Units

    All units - Topower UL Not stated


*Broadway Com Corp*
Known Manufacturers - Broadway Com Corp
Specific Units

    All units - Broadway Com Corp E194657

*Coolermaster*
Known Manufacturers - Acbel Polytec, Enhance, Hipro, Seventeam
Specific Units:

 Real Power 550W - Acbel Polytec E131875
eXtremePower 430W - Hipro E143709
eXtremePower 600W - Seventeam UL Not stated
eXtremePower 650W - Seventeam UL Not stated
Real Power Pro 750W - Acbel Polytec
Real Power Pro 850/1000W - Enhance

*Coolmax*
Known Manufacturers - ATNG
Specific Units

All units - ATNG E186010

*Corsair**another top brand that is very popular*
Known Manufacturers - Seasonic
Specific Units

All units - Seasonic UL Not Stated

*Delta*
Known Manufacturers - Delta
Specific Units

All units - Delta E131881/E217431/E313881

*Diablotek*
Known Manufacturers - Leadman
Specific Units

 All units - Leadman UL Not Stated

*Enermax* 
Known Manufacturers - Enermax
Specific Units

All units - Enermax E134014

*Enhance*
Known Manufacturers - Enhance
Specific Units

 All units - Enhance E166947 

*ePower*
Known Manufacturers - Topower
Specific Units

All Units - Topower E130843

*ePower is Topower's retail brand

*Etasis*
Known Manufacturers - Etasis
Specific Units

All units - Etasis E176239
*
FSP*
Known Manufacturers - FSP
Specific Units

All units - FSP E190414

*Gigabyte*
Known Manufacturers - Channelwell
Specific Units

All units - Channelwell E161451

*Hiper*
Known Manufacturers - Andyson
Specific Units

All units - Andyson E239028

*Hipro*** not to be confused with hiper, hipro is very popular in europe, they are a small oem, and their brand is a mix of their own products and topower products.** 
Known Manufacturers - Hipro, Topower
Specific Units

Units with HP Prefix - Hipro E143709
Units with TOP Prefix - Topower
*
In Win*
Known Manufacturers - In Win, FSP
Specific Units

Models with FSP prefix - FSP
Models with IW/IP prefix - In Win E193791

*Kingwin*
Known Manufacturers - Super Flower
Specific Units

All units - Super Flower E197467
*
Koolance*
Known Manufacturers - Channelwell
Specific Units

Liquid Cooled 1200W - Channelwell UL Not stated

*Leadman*
Known Manufacturers - Leadman
Specific Units

All units - Leadman UL Not stated
*
Linkworld*
Known Manufacturers - Linkworld
Specific Units

All units - Linkworld E131039
*
Logisys*
Known Manufacturers - Youngyear

All Units - Youngyear​
*Masscool*
Known Manufacturers - Seventeam
Specific Units

All Units - Seventeam E141400
*
Mushkin* 
Known Manufacturers - Topower
Specific Units

All Units - Topower E130643
_
*Topower's actual UL is E130843. This seems to be a typo made by Muskin _

*MSI*
Known Manufacturers - Solytech
Specific Units

 All units - Solytech E223918

_*Solytech are a division of Deer_
*
OCZ* *Wile E has alerted me that OCZ psu's, while they are very good psu's, they can ripple once you reach full capacity(500/500, etc.) and ripples in the voltage are very dangerous, so if you plan on really using up all the wattage of a psu, try another brand, but for the regular user, ocz psu's are still an excellent choice*
Known Manufacturers - 3Y, FSP, Topower
Specific Units

Powerstream series - Topower
    GameXStream series - FSP E190414
EvoStream series - 3Y E190414
ProXStream series - 3Y E190414
StealthXStream series - FSP E190414
ModXStream - FSP E190414 

_*FSP have a controlling interest in 3Y_
*
Powmax* **terrible cases followed by terrible psu's, this company is doomed**
Known Manufacturers - Leadman
Specific Units

All Units- Leadman UL Not Stated

*PC Power and Cooling*
Known Manufacturers - Seasonic, WinTact **excellent psu's, one of the best brands out there, they now offer a 5/7 year warranty on all of their psu's, and they also test your psu before sending it out to you and some of the more expensive psu's come with their own testing reports whereas for the other psu's its optional.. just goes to show you how confident PC Power and Cooling are in their products. **
Specific Units

Silencer series - Seasonic
Turbo-Cool series - WinTact UL Not Stated

*PC Power and Cooling are know owned by OCZ, although the product lines remain separate and probably will remain that way. 

*Raidmax*
Known Manufacturers - Sun Pro, Topower
Specific Units

RX-380K Sun Pro E210734
RX-420K Sun Pro E210734
 RX-500S Andyson E239028
RX-630A Topowe

*Rosewill*
Known Manufacturers - ATNG, Deer, Leadman, Solytech, Wintech, Youngyear
Specific Units

 RV200 - Deer E203196
RV300 - Leadman UL Not Stated
RV350 - ATNG E186010
RV450 - ATNG E186010
RD series - Solytech E223918
RE series - Youngyear E126556
RP series - ATNG E186010
RT series - Wintech UL Not Stated
RX series - ATNG E186010

*Scythe*
Known Manufacturers - Topower
Specific Units

All units - Topower E130843

*Seasonic* **probably some of the most expensive psu's on the market, i wonder why the rebadged ones are cheaper, most if not all seasonic psu's are 80+ energy efficent certified, but the certification is just a new concept and most psu's haven't even been tested, but seasonic is certified so its worth the extra money.**
Known Manufacturers - Seasonic
Specific Units

All units - Seasonic E104405

*Silverstone*
Known Manufacturers - Enhance, Etasis, Seventeam
Specific Units:

Olympia OP1000 - Seventeam E141400
Decathlon DA1000 - Seventeam E141400
    All other Olympia units - Designed by Impervio
    All other Decathlon units - Designed by Impervio
Element series (EF suffix) - Enhance E166947
Strider series (F suffix) - Enhance E166947
Zeus ST56ZF - Enhance E166947
All other Zeus models - Etasis E176239
 Nightjar series - Etasis E176239


*Sparkle*
Known Manufacturers - FSP
Specific Units

    All units - FSP

_*Sparkle is owned by FSP_

*StarTech*
Known Manufacturers - ATNG
Specific Units

All Units - ATNG E186010

*Super Flower*
Known Manufacturers - Super Flower
Specific Units

All units - Super Flower E242429

*Tagan*
Known Manufacturers - Enhance, Topower
Specific Units

Silver Power - Enhance
    All Other Units - Topower E223995
*
Thermaltake* 
Known Manufacturers - Channelwell, HEC, Sirtec
Specific Units

Purepower series - Channelwell E161451
TR2 430W - HEC E199442
All Other TR2s - Channelwell E161451/E193705
 Toughpower series - Channelwell UL Not stated

*Ultra* **ultra has a huge black mark next to their name because of their psu's, while the older psu's were good, and they fixed the psu problem by switching to andyson**
Known Manufacturers - Andyson, Seventeam, Wintech
Specific Units

V-Series - Wintech E178768
XVS - Wintech E178768
X-Finity 600W - Wintech E178768
  X2 - Wintech E178768
X3 - Andyson E239028
X-Pro 600W EE - Andyson E239028
    X-Pro 750W - Seventeam E141400
X-Pro 800W - Andyson E239028
X-Finity 800W - Andyson E239028

*XClio[/B]
Known Manufacturers - Channelwell, Enhance
Specific Units:

Stablepower series - Enhance UL Not stated **stable? of course**
Greatpower series - Channelwell UL Not stated **not great**
Goodpower series - Channelwell UL Not stated **not good**
BL series - Channelwell UL Not stated **is the bl suppossed to stand for blah?**

Xion
Known Manufacturers - Super Flower

All units- Super Flower **while these psu's have a great reputation and have very good looks, they are built by super flower so i do not recommend them. purple flag**​

Zalman **people say that cooling solution maker zalman makes their own thermal compound, though they dont have any experience in the field, but they dont make their own psu's, i know that much**
Known Manufacturers - FSP
Specific units:

All units - FSP E198072

Zippy 
Known Manufacturers - Zippy
Specific Units:

All units - Zippy E143756*​*


III. Auxiliary PSU's  

While auxiliary psu's aren't very common, they are still around and can be quite useful. there 2 reasons you might want to want to get an auxiliary psu: 


A. the most common reason that people need auxiliary psu's are for powering a thermoelectric coldplate (TEC) or peltier cooling. TEC's use electricity to seperate temperates. with a tec, one side of the block will get burning hot and the other side will get freezing cold. the hot side is the side that you need to water cool and the cold side is the part you need to put on the chip. but this isn't a water cooling guide so basically in order to seperate the temperature to extreme ends of the block, the tec's require lots of power. some  tec blocks even even require up to 437W of power . tecs require 12-15v of very stable power with lots of amps (like 20A+ or so). the typical atx/eps psu cannot provide the power and stability that a tec requires because the amount things like video card draw on the psu depends on how much they are being used at times so the load on the psu is ever changing, which is not very good for a tec. for a tec, i highly recommend getting a mean well aux. psu, they are built by mean well themselves and are intended for industrial purposes. heres a very good aux. psu for running something like a 437W tec. the only problem i have with mean well psu's are that they are targeted toward industrial use so they are not made to be mounted in the 5.25" drive bay,so you'll need to look into anothet means of mounting it in your case. though i believe the swiftech aux. psu's can be mounted in the drive bays. 

The relay switch: Well, the aux psu requires it's own power source. If you plug it straight in, it's always on. So what the relay kit is for, is to make the psu turn on, only when the main psu is on. The very basic explanation is: You hook the aux psu to the relay kit, hook the relay kit to a molex connector, then plug the relay kit into your electrical outlet. What it does is use the molex to sense when the main psu is on. When the main psu turns on, it opens an electronic switch to allow power to get to the aux psu.​
*****IF YOU ARE BUYING AN AUXILIARY PSU FOR A TEC/PELTIER, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A RELAY SWITCH. OTHERWISE, THIS COULD HAPPEN

B. While this reason is not very common, some people do buy aux. psu's so that they do not to keep updating their current psu's. and instead they can get an aux. psu to power say the second card in a multi video card system because the current atx psu cannot do it. heres a good example of a psu for that job. note that the mean well psu can be used to power your system components but you would need to make your own leads
​IV. Final Remarks 
I want this guide to be "open source" sort of like a wikipedia article. And here's how you can contribute to this list: 

find the Ul number on the label of the psu(see the examples below)
Go to the ul directory at http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.htm
type in the ul number, and see which company is listed. (note that some companies pay the oems to have the ul number in their name, such as Antec) 
post your psu info and its ul number on here, (a pic of the ul number on the psu would be greatly appreciated, as i can verify the authecitiy of the info) and i'll put it up. 
heres some examples:
on the first attached pic: This is the label from the antec smartpower series, here the ul is E161451. which comes up as channellwell from the ul directory. 

on the second attached pic: This is from the antec neohe, and the ul number is E104405, built by seasonic. 
*​*

Mods & admins can feel free to update this as they wish.

The following people have helped to contribute to this guide: Cdawall, Keaker, W1zzard, kennyt772, Wile E *


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## KennyT772 (Sep 13, 2007)

Rails - Normal sized units are always single rail as far as transformer layout goes. They use a single 12v transformer providing a single base voltage and current. So called multi-rail psus place a amperage cap on each "rail" limiting the output of any single rail to between 16a and 20a. 
A true multi rail or multi transformer psu is not possible in the atx spec. This is why we have the 1200w thermal take's for example that weigh 3 lbs and are twice the length of smaller output units. 

The easy way to check if your unit is truly multi rail is to compare output voltages from various leads. Under load and while idle a single transformer will output only one voltage. If you compare two seperate leads and one is 11.92 while the other is say 12.60 you have two seperate transformers. 

This multi rail business started by the atx2.0 spec that intel pushed. This limited the current of any one wire to 240va, to prevent overloading the power supply wires. This is the reason for the "P4" plug and the 24pin power plug as the single 12v wire on the original 20pin plug could not supply enough amperage for intels new p4 chips. 

With seperate rails, there are very very few that are seperate. It is mostly a marketing ploy to trick you into thinking their unit is superior to say PCP&C. It is just a amperage limiter preventing more than 16-20 amps from passing over that wire.


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## panchoman (Sep 13, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Rails - Normal sized units are always single rail as far as transformer layout goes. They use a single 12v transformer providing a single base voltage and current. So called multi-rail psus place a amperage cap on each "rail" limiting the output of any single rail to between 16a and 20a.
> A true multi rail or multi transformer psu is not possible in the atx spec. This is why we have the 1200w thermal take's for example that weigh 3 lbs and are twice the length of smaller output units.
> 
> The easy way to check if your unit is truly multi rail is to compare output voltages from various leads. Under load and while idle a single transformer will output only one voltage. If you compare two seperate leads and one is 11.92 while the other is say 12.60 you have two seperate transformers.
> ...



about the marketing ploy, lets use the pc power and cooling that you mentioned, built by seasonic of course, they have the quad silencer, which is suppossed to be quad rails, would say that it acutally has quad rails? and for the thermaltake psu, you're saying that its a true dual rail system, and thats why its like double the size? and so multi rail is like just multiple connections, so that you dont have too much power in one wire?

and so you're trying to say that the rails dont matter?


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## JC316 (Sep 14, 2007)

Great guide man. Looks really nice and eleminates some of the theories about different PS's.


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

woot! its stickied now! and thanks JC316. would anyone like to help me clarify the rails more, and would anyone want to add something about amps in here? i dont know anything about amps..


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## HookeyStreet (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> woot! its stickied now! and thanks JC316. would anyone like to help me clarify the rails more, and would anyone want to add something about amps in here? i dont know anything about amps..



Im glad its stickied, its a very good read.  Thanks for all your time and effort.  I will be reading it throughly before I get my new PSU


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## JC316 (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> woot! its stickied now! and thanks JC316. would anyone like to help me clarify the rails more, and would anyone want to add something about amps in here? i dont know anything about amps..



Thank Zek, he is the one that did it, I just recommended a good read.


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

JC316 said:


> Thank Zek, he is the one that did it, I just recommended a good read.



thanks a lot both of you, i hope to make this guide better and better as we go along


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## KennyT772 (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> about the marketing ploy, lets use the pc power and cooling that you mentioned, built by seasonic of course, they have the quad silencer, which is suppossed to be quad rails, would say that it acutally has quad rails? and for the thermaltake psu, you're saying that its a true dual rail system, and thats why its like double the size? and so multi rail is like just multiple connections, so that you dont have too much power in one wire?
> 
> and so you're trying to say that the rails dont matter?



total combined amperage is what matters, the cumulative amperage not the rails added together. the so called loss is just the psu having a cap on the wires and a cap on the combined output of all wires. 

multi rail is just the total output capped into various sections.


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> total combined amperage is what matters, the cumulative amperage not the rails added together. the so called loss is just the psu having a cap on the wires and a cap on the combined output of all wires.
> 
> multi rail is just the total output capped into various sections.



i'll add this info to the guide shortly, thanks,

coming soon: wattage, amps, color coding, and im going to clean it up and try and make it more user friendly.


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## zekrahminator (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> thanks a lot both of you, i hope to make this guide better and better as we go along



No problem, anyone that spends the time to type that much deserves at least a sticky .


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## keakar (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> i'll add this info to the guide shortly, thanks,
> 
> coming soon: wattage, amps, color coding, and im going to clean it up and try and make it more user friendly.



take a look at this: http://compreviews.about.com/od/cases/a/PSUWattage.htm

i think it explains watts and amps pretty good, also has nice links


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

okay, i'll finish the color coding and add some amp stuff tommorow, good night everybody


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## plamen (Sep 14, 2007)

cool


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## GLD (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> about the marketing ploy, lets use the pc power and cooling that you mentioned, built by seasonic of course, they have the quad silencer, which is suppossed to be quad rails, would say that it acutally has quad rails?



They say "Our new Silencer 750 Quad power supply gives you legendary PC Power and Cooling performance and Quad PCI Express connectors" and then "+12VDC @ 60A (Powerful Single Rail)". Quad rail is not what that "Quad" meens. PC Power & Cooling are all (now) single +12v rail psu's.


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## W1zzard (Sep 14, 2007)

"Power Factor Correction helps improve the efficency of a PSU, so that your PSU uses less electricity. 

wrong

"PFc requires you to set the voltages as well."

huh?

"Modular Cabling"

talk about losses on the connector

"because with multi rails, when the PSU fails, it wont take down you're whole system"

who says that? evidence?

"The OEM"

very good list

----

and just making sure before someone sues us: this is your content? you wrote it?


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

errr, isn't pfc supposed to improve the efficency of a psu????

with passive pfc(or no pfc) you have to set the voltages for where you are (the little red switch that says 110/220) with active pfc, you dont have to.

i'll try and clean up the rails section, and try and find some evidence.


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## AsRock (Sep 14, 2007)

You say
Enermax
Known Manufacturers - Enermax
Specific Units

Which units are bad all of them  ?. Even there $300 models ?


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

all the units are built by enermax as far as i know, and enermax is not a good oem company, so i would say even the 300 buck models are bad.  i finished color coding btw. i have about  15 links of psu info sitting in my inbox, i'll compile all the info and add it in eventually..


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

GLD said:


> They say "Our new Silencer 750 Quad power supply gives you legendary PC Power and Cooling performance and Quad PCI Express connectors" and then "+12VDC @ 60A (Powerful Single Rail)". Quad rail is not what that "Quad" meens. PC Power & Cooling are all (now) single +12v rail psu's.



oh, sorry about that, i thought i meant quad rails, like the antec quattro.


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## DRDNA (Sep 14, 2007)

Enermax is a top notch pSU not sure why its in RED


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

DRDNA said:


> Enermax is a top notch pSU not sure why its in RED



ill check it out, the reason i put it in red is because its manufactured by enermax, if it was manufactured by lets say seasonic, then its a definite green, however, if enermax is doing a very good job at manufacturing the psus, ill make it green. its yellow for now.


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## devguy (Sep 14, 2007)

PFC doesn't exactly have to do with efficiency of the PSU.  I'm not sure exactly how to put it but I believe it has something to do with the amount of power that is taken from the wall outlet (that is why it is a bigger deal in Europe when we're talking 240V instead of 120V).  Look on wikipedia, because my explanation is way oversimplified.

Also, what's wrong with Enermax?  This Enermax Liberty is the best PSU I've ever owned, and the reviews say it is probably the best in it's price class.  It is even better with my DXX edition that is PCIe 2.0 ready (6+2 pin PCIe power is their definition of PCIe 2.0 ready).

And about modular cables, if you actually plug the connectors correctly into the psu, the resistance caused by the modular cable is extremely minimal.  However, you must make sure that you get it in there all the way, otherwise the resistance will be large.  Also is the fact that if you are constantly plugging and unplugging cables from the psu, you are definitely going to increase the resistance of the connection over time.  That is why hiper psus (and those who do it like them) have such a novel idea, in that we should have screw in modular cables (and they look really nice).

Anyways, for a person who alters the configuration of the psu (like updating the pc quite often), modular cables probably aren't for you.  However, if you don't plan on constantly plugging and unplugging cables from the psu, a modular psu is probably a nicer choice both cosmetically, and for improving airflow.

Edit: you also might want to add in the wattage section about how the lower end psu makers tend to talk up their psus by giving out peak wattage as their wattage number.  The better psu makers usually give a more realistic description of the wattage their psus pump out.  For example, my liberty is rated for ~400W, but the documentation says it can peak at ~450W.


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

okay, some enermax psus are rated very well, and othere arent, so im going to leave enermax as yellow


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## DRDNA (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> ill check it out, the reason i put it in red is because its manufactured by enermax, if it was manufactured by lets say seasonic, then its a definite green, however, if enermax is doing a very good job at manufacturing the psus, ill make it green. its yellow for now.



I am sure with a little more research on the EnerMax you will find that it is indeed GREEN and in the top 5 of all the manufactures Thank you for taking the time to do this project
I will slap ya an official thank you once your documentation has become near completion


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

DRDNA said:


> I am sure with a little more research on the EnerMax you will find that it is indeed GREEN and in the top 5 of all the manufactures Thank you for taking the time to do this project
> I will slap ya an official thank you once your documentation has become near completion



well for enermax, it's green now. the documentation will never be complete because new psu brands are always coming out and older brands are changing their psu's are releasing new series. i found this great article from toms hardware guide http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/07/11/stress_test/ just hitting the arrow for the table of contents and reading the headlines is enough you need to know about the psu lol. as of course, the good psus survive, the bad crumble.


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

as for pfc, im not too sure but i think this quote means that without pfc the power gets wasted, i read in another guide that active pfc can make more use of the ac line then a psu with no pfc, "PFC is desirable because the source of electrical energy must be capable of supplying real power as well as any reactive power demanded by the load. This can require larger, more expensive power plant equipment, transmission lines, transformers, switches, etc. than would be necessary for only real power delivered. Also, resistive losses in the transmission lines mean that some of the generated power is wasted because the extra current needed to supply reactive power only serves to heat up the power lines."


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## AsRock (Sep 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> all the units are built by enermax as far as i know, and enermax is not a good oem company, so i would say even the 300 buck models are bad.  i finished color coding btw. i have about  15 links of psu info sitting in my inbox, i'll compile all the info and add it in eventually..



So retail units should be ok ?

As i have been planing to pick one of these up some time this year
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194019


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

AsRock said:


> So retail units should be ok ?
> 
> As i have been planing to pick one of these up some time this year
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194019



i would wait, while enermax produts are really good overall, the recent reviews are disturbing, and this one might explain the problem: 

"Cons: Did not have proper cabling. Called ENERMAX and they admitted shipping bad units. However they tried to convince me to use an improper cable to power my motherboard because it could be easily forced into the receptor on the motherboard. "

if they're shipping bad units, i suggest you wait a little bit untill they correct the problem.

heres the review under that one: 

Cons: It blew up, only lasted 1 hour, scared the life out of me and my quad core system. I have since fitted an Antec Truepower Quad 1000 with no problems, i should have used antec the first time around, also the Enermax is way longer than any other psu i have used, the antec is the typical psu size and fits much better!

and the one under that one: 

Other Thoughts: Wouldn't post new Abit IN9-32X Max MB with all power connectors attached. Removing molex conn. to MB booted system, but SLI not stable. My older PSU booted the MB just fine. RMA'd this unit. Hopefully a new one will work.

and the one after that one: 

Cons: When the PSU was mounted in the case following the instructions in the manual (135mm fan facing down). The fan shaft had enough play that the fan blades cam in contact with the fan grill. It sounded like a a blender. It also overloaded my APC UPS. Because of the fan I RMAed the item.

Other Thoughts: Their quality control must be rather poor allowing a unit to be sold with a blatant problem.

and the one after that one: 

Cons: Has many issues with power stability. Fails to boot. Shuts down randomly.

and the one after that one: 

Cons: Enermax still hasn't learned to make the cables longer and they are failing QA - the first one not only had a short, but it kept constant power on one of the rails (CD light would be one with the machine off).


i think you get the point now, and these are the first few reviews from the link you sent me, stay away untill they stop shipping bad units i say..


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## panchoman (Sep 14, 2007)

okay, i put more info for wattage, and i put out some general amp numbers. And i rewrote the rails paragraph with some new info(i'll clean it up later). Addied some info on modular too,changed the yellows to orange so that you can read them better, and now i can call it a day.

my goal for this guide is: the guide should be through with all the information in one place, while being user friendly and well organized so that it does not feel like a novel.


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## AsRock (Sep 15, 2007)

panchoman said:


> i would wait, while enermax produts are really good overall, the recent reviews are disturbing, and this one might explain the problem:
> 
> "Cons: Did not have proper cabling. Called ENERMAX and they admitted shipping bad units. However they tried to convince me to use an improper cable to power my motherboard because it could be easily forced into the receptor on the motherboard. "
> 
> ...



Cheers for the responce and yeah by the reviews there some bad one BUT all so i know how stupid people can be and expect bad ones anyways but does seem a bit high still.

As for waiting have no option i have to wait  lol.  I'm sure it's not as bad as Coolmax like the one i have all ready too glad to see them marked RED.


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## panchoman (Sep 15, 2007)

AsRock said:


> Cheers for the responce and yeah by the reviews there some bad one BUT all so i know how stupid people can be and expect bad ones anyways but does seem a bit high still.
> 
> As for waiting have no option i have to wait  lol.  I'm sure it's not as bad as Coolmax like the one i have all ready too glad to see them marked RED.



yeah, if you really really want to get that enermax galaxy, i suggest you wait till they stop shipping out bad units, or just a different psu, like the pc power and cooling 1kw psu.


COMING SOON: 

-i'm going to be splitting the psu guide into 2 sections. the first section will be basically the psu guide in a nutshell and the second part will be the guide that currently exists. 

-i gotta change the yellows to orange so that you guys can see them better

-i'll add "pancho's top 10 psu's list" 

-possible psu of the week idk, this guide's not that popular yet lmao.


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## keakar (Sep 15, 2007)

i dont see Broadway on the general list of power supplies anywhere


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## panchoman (Sep 15, 2007)

keakar said:


> i dont see Broadway on the general list of power supplies anywhere



broadway??


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## keakar (Sep 15, 2007)

probably list a red colored brand but this is them http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=58&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=


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## panchoman (Sep 15, 2007)

keakar said:


> probably list a red colored brand but this is them http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=58&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=



the dont have a ul logo and thats really bad, definite red. edit: some have the logo, some dont. anyone know how to zoom in on text without making it blurry? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowI...way+Com+Corp+OKIA-BLACK-550+550W+Power+Supply 
i need to read the ul number(its under the backwards R thats attached to a U) off of that label.


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## keakar (Sep 15, 2007)

panchoman said:


> the dont have a ul logo and thats really bad, definite red. edit: some have the logo, some dont. anyone know how to zoom in on text without making it blurry? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowI...way+Com+Corp+OKIA-BLACK-550+550W+Power+Supply
> i need to read the ul number(its under the backwards R thats attached to a U) off of that label.



looks like they make em themselves, will this help? http://www.bccpc.com/bccpc/about_us.htm


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## panchoman (Sep 15, 2007)

keakar said:


> looks like they make em themselves, will this help? http://www.bccpc.com/bccpc/about_us.htm



actually, i was going to say that as well, i went to the ul directory, and broadway com corp is registered as a psu maker, heres their ul file: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073787374&sequence=1


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## panchoman (Sep 15, 2007)

oh and the orange looks almost like red, so i'll be reverting back to yellow since its more logical then like purple lmao. im using traffic light colors btw. and if you guys know any other brands that i need to add on here, just drop a post, and i'll look it up.


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## panchoman (Sep 16, 2007)

Coming Soon(in the next few days):

-changing the color coding scheme for the 3rd time

-finishing up the psu simplied portion. 

-19 more brands added (preety much went through all the brands on newegg) - this will take some time(few days probably)  because need to check through all the psu's and find oem patterns and what not so if theres a brand on here that you want,post it here and i'll put it at the top of my list)


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## KennyT772 (Sep 16, 2007)

> Rails: While many psu's are multi rail, it is better to get a single rail system because with a single rail, the psu can transfer 100% of the 12v output of the psu to the computer, whereas in a multi rail system, you can face up to 30% distribution loss due to underutilized rails. lets say for example lets say rail 12vr2 is assigned to work for the cpu, and lets say the rail carries 17Amps of power, but the cpu only uses 7A of power, that 10amps in lost, whereas in a single rail system, the system draws from only one rail so the power loss is not there. also, lets say you have a grafix card that required 20A, but the rail its using is 17A, you have instability and problems like that, thats why for a sli/crossfire system, you definently want a single rail psu, because everything draws from the single rail, which has all the power of the psu. whereas if you're trying to sli/crossfire on a quad rail system, which has like power of the psu split up, that 1/4 of the power of the psu might not be able to power the sli/crossfire grafix cards.



This information is very incorrect. 

Example say we have a psu with 4 rails that outputs a max of 650w between the four 12v rails. Each rail has a max of 18a output. That should add up to 864w right? Wrong.

There is a single transformer that makes the 650w of 12v power. From there the power is split into 4 channels: 12v1 12v2 12v3 12v4. Then there is a limiter placed on each channel of 18amps or 216w. This means that up to 216w can be used from any one channel, but no more than 650w total. 

So you could use 3 of the rails and still use 650w, but if you put anything on that last rail you would overload the transformer - psu shuts off.

Say you put two HD2900's on a single rail, you go over the 216w max - psu shuts off. 

Now if you put the motherboard on rail one 12v1, say that uses 11a. CPU power goes from rail two or 12v2, that uses 11a. Then you throw a HD2900 and a hard drive on each of the last two rails, a HD2900 + HDD on 12v3 and a HD2900 + HDD on 12v4. Each of those uses say 16a. That equals 54amps or 648w.

This means that while no rail uses the full 18a, you still max out the power supply. You are not wasting any power as there is no cutting it apart. There is no psu whose sticker says 
12v1 18a 12v2 18a 
max 12v 36a
That would waste power. 

While I thank you for starting this thread, some of your definitions need to be changed.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 16, 2007)

> Modular Cabling: Modular cabling is always something that PC enthusists want. with modular cabling, most cables other then the 20+4 pin, 4 pin cpu, etc. come seperate from the PSU. with modular cabling, you only need to use the cables which you want. the rest of the cables can stay outside of the case, which will help improve your airflow. While modular cabling does improve airflow, they limit power by increasing the electrical resisitance, in fact the voltage drop can be as much as that which would occur in 2 feet of standard wire. Worst of all though, modular plugs utilize delicate pins that can easily loosen, corrode, and burn, creating the potential for a major system failure.



This is also incorrect. 

Depending on design there can be little to no difference on modular and fixed cables. Take the new thermaltake power supplys. Because they make the exact same unit in two versions, modular and not, there have been several tests done to see if there is indeed a difference. While I do not know where I read this off hand I'm sure someone else does. 

With cheaper modular units such as Ultra's etc over time the pins do loosen although there is no difference with loose pins on the power supply and loose pins on the other end of the wire. This is a common marketing ploy by some higher end psu makers to promote their units as the best. 

Some other designs such as Hiper's aircraft style plugs prevents the quoted issue as there is no way the connection can be faulty or the connector can fall out. This is a superior although bulky design.


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## xnox202 (Sep 16, 2007)

I was kinda surprised, Decathlon and Olympia in reds. And I thought they are really excellent PSUs?

Edit: wops, orange i meant.


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## panchoman (Sep 16, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> This information is very incorrect.
> 
> Example say we have a psu with 4 rails that outputs a max of 650w between the four 12v rails. Each rail has a max of 18a output. That should add up to 864w right? Wrong.
> 
> ...



This is from Pcpower.com:



> 8. ARE MULTIPLE 12-VOLT RAILS BETTER THAN A SINGLE 12-VOLT RAIL?
> With all the hype about multiple 12-volt rails (ads claim that two rails is better than one, five is better than four, etc.), you’d think it was a better design. Unfortunately, it’s not!
> 
> Here are the facts: A large, single 12-volt rail (without a 240VA limit) can transfer 100% of the 12-volt output from the PSU to the computer, while a multi-rail 12-volt design has distribution losses of up to 30% of the power supply’s rating. Those losses occur because power literally gets “trapped” on under-utilized rails. For example, if the 12-volt rail that powers the CPU is rated for 17 amps and the CPU only uses 7A, the remaining 10A is unusable, since it is isolated from the rest of the system.
> ...



this is why i wrote what i wrote, so unless if you have another source of info that can prove this info wrong, please post an excerpt/link/etc. while i am happy that everybody's trying to help me add to this thread, it would be helpful if you could provide links to verified information. heres another article: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/single_rail_versus_multi_rail_power_supplies
for running things such as compressors, etc. you need a single rail psu, "http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-71455.html" the power cannot be rerouted between rails, atx specs say that (i believe) in a dual rail psu, the first rail is for the 24 pin power connector and molex, and that the second rail is for the 4 pin cpu connector. with the processors becoming more energy efficent, the amps that the cpu isn't using, cant be rerouted to another rail, like a rail where you're trying to run 2 hd2900xt 's in crossfire. while lets say the cpu is using 7 amps on it's 17 amp rail, the other 10 amps cannot be rerouted to another rail, therefore the 10amps is not wasted as in burned up/used, but wasted in the sense that they cant be used by anything other then the cpu. for extreme overclockers and people running multiple video card setups, a single 12v+ railwill  be more stable and powerful then a multiple rail system.


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## panchoman (Sep 16, 2007)

xnox202 said:


> I was kinda surprised, Decathlon and Olympia in reds. And I thought they are really excellent PSUs?
> 
> Edit: wops, orange i meant.



yeah, they're in orange, i need to make them yellow again, yellow looks too similiair, while the psu's are very good, the oem is a little , but dont worry, i'm actually working on figuring out why the thermaltake and silverstone psu's are good though the oems are like...


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## panchoman (Sep 16, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> This is also incorrect.
> 
> Depending on design there can be little to no difference on modular and fixed cables. Take the new thermaltake power supplys. Because they make the exact same unit in two versions, modular and not, there have been several tests done to see if there is indeed a difference. While I do not know where I read this off hand I'm sure someone else does.
> 
> ...



while i do agree that most of the time the plug part of  the modular cabling system isn't that much of a problem, the electrical resistance part is.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

Well how about this, buy a 1200w thermaltake's of each variety and test for differences. 

I post not from marketing blurb, not from ad funded websites, but from technical design and physics laws. 

My house has a 32 rail power supply believe it or not. Most rails are 15-30 amp but the max output is 300amp. Sound familiar? That is because a capped design to prevent overdraw on wiring has been the normal in home wiring for many years. If you don't believe me and say a single rail approach is better, go open your home fuse breaker.

With modular, if we are that worried about loose pins and high resistance connections why not just hard wire our computers into the wall while we are at it? Them darn power cords are costing us performance!!!! 

Also, I distinctly said there can be no difference, there also can be a large difference. I'm not simply saying any and every modular design is flawless. Some such as hiper's are great and have very little degradation of the connection over time. Others that use simple plug in connectors with no clip (such as the sunbeam unit I am posting from) the connector can slide out of the socket increasing resistance and lowering output. It all depends on how solid the connection is. If there is no clip it is easy for the connector to fall out, if theres a clip like most modular psu's it is rather difficult but has happened. However, if it is a design good enough for the aeronautics community, I have rather large faith in the design.

I do not quote other experts, I quote laws of physics and common sense. While this has failed me more than just once, I have been correct beyond my knowledge more times than I can count.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

panchoman said:


> This is from Pcpower.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you telling me that there is a hard line between 12v1 and 12v2? The rails have caps preventing you from overloading the wire. The reason for all of this multi rail madness is the ATX2.0 spec. In order to have your psu display the ATX2.X sticker it has to comply to the specifications. One of those is no more than 18a over a single 12v wire if I remember correctly. This is due to Intel's P4's drawing so much power from the single 12v connector in the original 20pin mobo connector that it was melting the wire. 

The 4pin "P4" connector was born. This enabled intel to use much more 12v voltage for motherboards and their processors. Once the Pentium D's came out, there became another problem. Not even the 3 12v leads were enough, so here came the 24pin sockets with an extra 12v lead in there totalling for 4 of them. It also added a 5v and a 3.3v. 

More amperage - more line instability. This has long been a rule of overclockers. This is why you see no low end motherboards with a molex or floppy power connector on the mobo itself, Yet DFI and ASUS overclocking boards have 1, 2, or even 3 extra connectors to provide extra power. 

I could sit and explain until you understand what I say, however It seems my time so far has been only in vain.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> I could sit and explain until you understand what I say, however It seems my time so far has been only in vain.



you have stated many things as fact but you have never provided anything in the way of links to any article backing up what you have said.

while everything you state could be acurate and truthfull you have to remember the purpose of the thread is to provide "acurate information" not opinions so all he is asking for is something to back up what you are saying.

if he is to post it as fact he needs more than just one persons "opinion" that it is correct.

he is not trying to argue with you he is only looking for verification of what you are saying.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

Well give me a adjustable load psu tester and I could easily prove it. 

Tell me if this is wrong
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341002
That is the power supply I just purchased a week ago. 





As you can see in the picture it has 4 18a rails with a combined output of 680w. That equates to roughly 57a between all 12v rails. How many different ways can you cut 57amps 4 ways?

I cannot find the description of which rail powers what connector so I don't really know. Although my guess is that the motherboard 24pin is one rail, the 8pin is another, then one pci-e/sata/molex each on the last two rails. So I could possibly put all of my computers load on 3 of the four rails correct? Well the max of any one rail is 18 amp, that times three means I can use a maximum of 54amp (as long as I don't pull more than 18amp from any one rail) and get by with a rail left over. 

Am I wasting wattage now? No I am not. There are multiple ways you could use the total of 57amp over any of the connectors. The power supply doesn't care if you use only one rail at 18amp or if you use all four at 5amp. Why is that? Because it doesn't matter. You don't believe me so go try it yourself.

Rails are a safety feature not a performance feature. If you tear apart a PCP&C unit and try to draw say 30amp over one wire the unit will either shut off (because it has a maximum output shutoff coughrailcough) or you will melt the wire causing big problems. 

Instead of telling me to back up my information why not go and prove me wrong, either with your own two hands or by one of our peers. Not some review guy with advertising money in his back pocket.

Keakar I have stated many things as that is what I do. I have many friends who are engineers, some of which are electrical engineers. I have discussed power design with them multiple times on the issue of rails etc. One of them works for intel and had a part in designing the ATX2.2 spec.
Link to atx2.2 http://www.formfactors.org/developer\specs\atx2_2.pdf


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## erocker (Sep 17, 2007)

Plus, you are posting fact from PC&P's marketing.  Kenny is absolutely right, I dab into electronics being a mechanic, go run some tests then post your psu facts.


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

yes, i realized that i shouldn't have pulled the info from a psu company's website, but still. kenny, i think you're trying to fight me instead of contributing to the guide lol. i didn't understand half the stuff you said lol. i'm just a kid that wrote this guide in hopes that it helps people, i'm going to let you guys fill in the technical stuff, but it would help if you backed up what you're saying with some evidence that way i can put it up without being being criticized the way you're crticizing me. i'll try and read this tommorow with a fresher mind, but if i understsand correctly, with multi rail psu's, its capped so that theres a limited number of amps going through each wire or "rail". so once you're rail is being used at full capacity (say 18a) you cant put more, whereas in a single rail, the device can draw more then 18a because theres no cap to limit it, thats greater stablility, and since theres 18a going to the rail with the cpu and the cpu is using 8a, what happens to the other 10a? you cant reroute that cause the other rails already have 18a. okay, i'm very very drowsy so yeah sorry if i sound a lil drunk, i'll try figuring out everything tommorow, good night.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Am I wasting wattage now? No I am not. There are multiple ways you could use the total of 57amp over any of the connectors. The power supply doesn't care if you use only one rail at 18amp or if you use all four at 5amp. Why is that? Because it doesn't matter. You don't believe me so go try it yourself.
> 
> Instead of telling me to back up my information why not go and prove me wrong, either with your own two hands or by one of our peers. Not some review guy with advertising money in his back pocket.
> 
> ...



well as i stated before all he asked for was some data to back it up, this thread is supposed to educate people with facts as best as we can provide so he didnt want to print things that dont have data to back them up is all. 

as for knowing the engineers, i know a few and they cant even agree on lunch lol. but thats how engineers are. 

i agree that the rails each have individual limits on them but as far as the stated amps on the rails they should add up to 72amps not 57 or 54. it is my understanding that the new standard required actual amp outputs to be stated on the label for all rails running together at the same time not what one rail is limited to by itself. if they are all are listed as 18 amps then they should all be able to put out a maximum of 18 amps on all four rails at the same time or it is labeled wrong and should say 54 amps limited to 18 amp per rail.

on a personal note

you said "Why is that? Because it doesn't matter. You don't believe me so go try it yourself."

convince me with an explanation of why your point is valid and why i am not understandind it correctly, dont just give up and say im right and thats it so dont believe me.  

you sound like you are smart and you know what you are talking about but when anyone asks too many questions you give up on discussion to quickly. cant you have a discussion with someone without saying screw it you dont believe me?


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> This is also incorrect.
> 
> Depending on design there can be little to no difference on modular and fixed cables. Take the new thermaltake power supplys. Because they make the exact same unit in two versions, modular and not, there have been several tests done to see if there is indeed a difference. While I do not know where I read this off hand I'm sure someone else does.
> 
> ...



you are totally incorrect here, anytime a wire has been cut and reconnected by a connector of any kind you will experience a "small" voltage and amperage drop due to the fact that the connection is not solid but plugs and unplugs. corrosion and oxidation on these pins and sockets further increases the voltage and amperage drop through this connection. a solid wire unbroken and solered to the board is always better than a plug in type connection.

the higher the quality of the connector and the type of metal it is made from will determine how much drop occurs but it is a guaranteed fact you will experience voltage and amperage drop.

any basic electronics book will tell you that.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> This information is very incorrect.
> 
> Example say we have a psu with 4 rails that outputs a max of 650w between the four 12v rails. Each rail has a max of 18a output. That should add up to 864w right? Wrong.
> 
> ...



how does this in any way have a bearing on what he said?

his example was a video card needs 20 amps and you have a 2 rail psu putting out 17amps per rail. what he said, granted it could be worded better but, a single rail psu could give you a full 20 amps or more to run that card stable where most of the 2 rail psu doesnt have the necessary amps on a single rail to handle it. what he did fail to mention though was the high end psu do have the amps if you can afford them.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

panchoman said:


> Coming Soon(in the next few days):
> 
> -changing the color coding scheme for the 3rd time



whoever suggested using yellow is stupid, what a dumb color.

everyone knows you cant see yellow very good on a white background!


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

Keakar if you look at the sticker on my power supply it shows a maximum of 680w (57*12=684w thats where I got the 57amps from). If I were to try and run all four rails at 18amps I would be at 72amps and my psu would be overloaded seeing as that would be 864w (12*72) coming from a 700w psu. 

Panchoman the reason for the 18a is the amount of current going over the wire. Most power supply's are wired with 16ga to 18ga wire. 16ga can carry 22a without overloading and 18ga can carry 16a without overloading (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm). The 18a limit is a safety precaution so you don't draw 72amp over one wire and start an electrical fire.

On Keakar Personal Note.
I said prove me wrong considering I seem to be very argumenitive towards panchoman as far as you guys are saying and I would like to only contribute useful and correct information to this guide, not senseless marketing garb trying to sell PCP&C's single rails over multi rail designs ETC. 

I know quite a large amount about hardware design as that is what I'm going to college for next year. My main approach to computer hardware is by logic and explanation, this clears away any marketing ploy by providing only the cold hard truth, much in the way a CSI solves a crime.

In terms of this failing me such as the pci-e 2,0 connector, which i thought was 4x 12v and 4x ground, but it is 3 12v and 5 ground, just with higher gauge 12v wires to allow 4.25amp per wire.

Need more explaination? I seek to serve.

Edit: Keakar

If a single video card required 20amps - 6.25amp (75w) would come from the pci-e bus, another 6.25amp (75w) would come from a pci-e 6pin connector, and the remaining power would come from the pci-e 2.0 8pin 12.5amp (150w) giving you a total of 25a (300w) available. Todays PCI-E 2.0 power supply's have each pci-e plug on a seperate rail so no one wire can become over loaded.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Keakar if you look at the sticker on my power supply it shows a maximum of 680w (57*12=684w thats where I got the 57amps from). If I were to try and run all four rails at 18amps I would be at 72amps and my psu would be overloaded seeing as that would be 864w (12*72) coming from a 700w psu.



so wait a minute

you have 4 rails putting out 18 amps that adds up to 72 amps yet this doesnt match the stated amps or the rated wattage of the psu. how can then put out these numbers as fact because you still have the 3.3v and 5v rails?

what happened to them having to be acurate with labeling?


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

The transformer has a maximum output of 57amp. To allow flexibility of useage they give you four 18amp (again that is the maximum amperage that is safe on 16ga wire) to prevent unusable power. As sneekypeet just showed me here is a picture of the OCZ GameXstream pcb showing how the single transformer outputs into a common rail, which is then devided and limited to 18amp each.






Keakar if you had a power supply that output 72amp over four rails you would have to use every single individual plug to max out your power supply. The odds of incorrectly loading your psu are much higher than if you had say 6 rails with some room to play with.


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

Well fellas I hate to say it , but Kenny is right on the money here. I did a lot of review shopping befor I purchased my PSU.

just a couple of points.....The PSU manufacturers dont "have" to put the correct specs on a PSU. Case and point is the OCZ GSX 700 which when sold by FSP is labled as a 600W PSU, but again the same PCB and equiptment is used by Zalman ,once again its labled as 700W.

Second point and I'm out....most labels are incorrect, all you need to do is google a couple of formulas. They are an Industry standard for any type of electric power. Plug in the numbers and do the math, it's that simple. I'd even be willing to say that if you do the math on your PSU , I bet the math doesn't match the sticker.

I dont think Kenny is out to get you or anything , he just strongly believes in hat he is saying, because its true. Math doesnt lie, there is only human error, and the blatant abuse of a company to make money on false info.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> The transformer has a maximum output of 57amp. To allow flexibility of useage they give you four 18amp (again that is the maximum amperage that is safe on 16ga wire) to prevent unusable power.
> 
> Keakar if you had a power supply that output 72amp over four rails you would have to use every single individual plug to max out your power supply. The odds of incorrectly loading your psu are much higher than if you had say 6 rails with some room to play with.



ok so the amps stated for the rails on a atx 2.0 psu mean nothing then, only the total amps mean anything since they are only amp limits for each rail and not total available amps.

with 57 total available amps on your power supply you have the 3.3v and 5v rails using amps so lets say that adds up to 7 amps, you have 50 left for 4 rails so if you spread your load evenly you only have the ability to get 12.25 amps from all 4 rails at the same time or 17amps from 3 rails if nothing is using the 4th rail.

now lets assume you want to look at whats available to you in maximum usage limits (which is why you compare psu in the first place and you can really only use 3 of the 4 rails in the real world use of it.


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

On the chart below we compiled the current values and their respective powers, from a given 300W ATX power supply. As we can notice on the chart below, the value of combined power is 150W (+3.3/+5V). In order to calculate the maximum capacity of an ATX power supply, we add the power value of the +12V output, the combined power (+3,3V/5V), the power of the -5V ouput, the power of the -12V output, and the power of +5V Standby. The result will be the maximum power that the power supply can provide to the computer. 

Output Voltage Electric Current Maximum Power 
+12V 8A 12 * 8 = 96W 
+5V 30A 5 * 30 = 150W 
+3.3V 14A 3.3 * 14 = 46.2W 
+3.3V/+5V   150W 
-5V 0.5A 5 * 0.5 = 2.5W 
-12V 0.5A 12 * 0.5 = 6W 
Standby 1.5A 5 * 1.5 = 7.5W 
Power Supply Total Capacity 96 + 150 + 2.5 + 6 + 7.5 = 262W 


As we can notice the power supply which we have used in our example is, in fact, a 262W power supply and not a 300W one, as it's been advertised! Unfortunately, this is a common practice among some power supply manufactures, who inform the maximum power value, incorrectly. The easiest way of discovering the real maximum power provided by the power supply is calculating it, like we've shown.

directly taken from hardwaresecrets website on how to get a true read of your PSU
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/181


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

Correct. All rails do is place limits to prevent damange to the computer or the power supply. Depending on the power supply there could be limits placed in many ways including 3.3+5 output and then 12v output. Or grouping in any combination. All that matters is the amount of total 12v amps available, as it is very difficult to overload a psu rail with a properly designed psu. 

The 57amp number you quoted is total available from all positive outputs so that you cant overload the unit. I misread the label (human error..what a shock) and was thinking that was the total 12v output not 12v + 5v + 3.3v. I wish I had a load tester as mentioned in this article to figure the total 12v amperage. http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/410/1


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## Namslas90 (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks for pointing that out Sneekypeet, I've been telling people for ever, to check the Specs and do some SIMPLE MATH, to reveal the truth.


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

I suggest looking at the link by everyone with an intrest in PSU's ....great read there for sure.


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## Wile E (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> you are totally incorrect here, anytime a wire has been cut and reconnected by a connector of any kind you will experience a "small" voltage and amperage drop due to the fact that the connection is not solid but plugs and unplugs. corrosion and oxidation on these pins and sockets further increases the voltage and amperage drop through this connection. a solid wire unbroken and solered to the board is always better than a plug in type connection.
> 
> the higher the quality of the connector and the type of metal it is made from will determine how much drop occurs but it is a guaranteed fact you will experience voltage and amperage drop.
> 
> any basic electronics book will tell you that.


Right, but with a high quality PSU, the amount is ridiculously small. Not big enough to say that modular is a bad design in every instance. That's the point Kenny is making.

By the modular=bad logic, my Corsair HX620 is a bad psu.

About the multi-rail vs single rail debate, Kenny is right, period. Neither is better than the other. Both have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Most multi rail psus are a single rail, split "after the fact" (transformer), and just have limiters placed on the "rails" to prevent  overloading a single wire.

More about my PSU. My psu is rated at 620w total. The 12v rails are rated at 600w. 600w/12v=50A. Now, there are 3 rails, and they're rated at 18a each. 18a*3=54A. I could run 18a thru 2 of them for 36a, but I'd only be able to run 14a thru the third, any higher and I'd trip the power supply. Or conversely, I could put nothing on the first 2 rails, then try to run 20a thru the third, but my psu would still trip, even tho I'm at less than half of it's rated capacity. It's purely for safety reasons.

Link to my psu, for reference: http://www.corsair.com/products/hx.aspx


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

ok so lets take this example of a two rail psu which would probably be the more popular choice for the average buyer.


Brand           Thermaltake  
Model           W0093RU  
Type            ATX 12V 2.0 Version  
Max Power    500W  
PFC             Passive  
Dual +12V     Yes  
PCI-E Con     No  
SLI Support   No  
Efficiency > 70%  
Over Voltage Protection +5V output 7.0 Vmax 
+3.3V output 4.5 Vmax 
+12V output 15. 6 Vmax  

Input Current 10A @ 115V, 5A @ 230V  
Output +3.3V@30A, +5V@28A, +12V1@14A, +12V2@15A, -12V@0.3A, +5VSB@2A  

i was always told since i was buying single rail psu to look at the +12v amps to get the best psu i need.


now with 2 or more rails they are all giving wildly different amps for all the different rails.

i see 3.3v rails as high as 54 amps and some 5v rails i have seen at 45 amps and +12v rails vary from the 18v to 24v to 30v, then some give +12v dual rails as 15/15 or 18/17 or 20/20.

so how the hell are we supposed to select what we need if they are all so different. if there is a standard why isnt it being followed. there is no guide to say the +12v rail requires this amount.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

Wile E said:


> More about my PSU. My psu is rated at 620w total. The 12v rails are rated at 600w. 600w/12v=50A. Now, there are 3 rails, and they're rated at 18a each. 18a*3=54A. I could run 18a thru 2 of them for 36a, but I'd only be able to run 14a thru the third, any higher and I'd trip the power supply. Or conversely, I could put nothing on the first 2 rails, then try to run 20a thru the third, but my psu would still trip, even tho I'm at less than half of it's rated capacity. It's purely for safety reasons.[/url]



ok so where the old style atx psu had individual dedicated rails that came with different amperages depending on the psu even though they had the same wattage rating. this meant that wattages were not a very good indicator of how many amps you might get available to the +12v rail. 

are you saying that now in the new atx 2.0 psu the wattages are a true and accurate indicator of how much amperages you are going to have available to all the rails and the amperage limits given are all just dependent on the size of the wires used for that rail?


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## Wile E (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> ok so where the old style atx psu had individual dedicated rails that came with different amperages depending on the psu even though they had the same wattage rating. this meant that wattages were not a very good indicator of how many amps you might get available to the +12v rail.
> 
> are you saying that now in the new atx 2.0 psu the wattages are a true and accurate indicator of how much amperages you are going to have available to all the rails and the amperage limits given are all just dependent on the size of the wires used for that rail?


I'm not saying a psu's wattage rating is a true indicator of potential. That varies by manufacturer. As with almost everything in the computer world, there are no standardized testing or rating methods. Each manufacturer uses their own, some are more honest than others.

But you're right on the amperage part. It boils down to safety, and how much the wires themselves can handle.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

Wile E said:


> I'm not saying a psu's wattage rating is a true indicator of potential. That varies by manufacturer.



well if aperages mean nothing and wattages dont ensure accurate amperages then there is no way to know what you get


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

The reasoning behind the 14a/15a max rating is either because of the gauge wire used, or the maximum output by the transformer + some extra allowance for load setup. 

What you should look for in a power supply is the maximum combined 12v output. Some power supplies show this and some do not. You need to simply research enough so you understand the layout of the output maximum for the various rails. There is no one true indicator of which power supply you should buy. 

This is why there is a forum for these kind of questions.

This uncertianty is the #1 reason I would always buy a psu 50w over your worst case scenario. This way you have plenty of room for overclocking, upgrading, etc.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> What you should look for in a power supply is the maximum combined 12v output. Some power supplies show this and some do not.



please explain, you say amps dont tell true power and neither do watts so explain what does matter


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

the average computer builder will follow the popular trends when building a system so it should not be hard to come up with a general guide for these types of systems.

for my system at the time i built it, the general guide said it required a minimum of 300watts for a P4 system, 350 watts for a system with extra fans and lights, 400 watts for a modded system with lights accessaries and extra fans, 500+ watts for anything with water cooling and the psu amperage guide said it was poor if it had 12-14 amps, marginal if it had 15-16 amps, and good if it had 17-18 amps on +12v line.

what I would like to see is a simular type chart to simplify psu selection in reguards to building a system today.

IMO power supply calculators are notoriously overestimating the size psu needed so we end up buying the higher priced psu when more economical options can be used. while it doesnt hurt to have too much psu, budget builders have less money and cannot overpay where it is not needed.

these "calculators" have preset numbers they use to figure your needs so a "general outline guide" made using these numbers can be made. those who build "basic" systems could simply make choices following this chart which IMO applies to most of us and those who are building more complicated systems can stick to the calculators. i cant believe a basic generic guideline chart cannot be done.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 17, 2007)

What you can look for is the amount of 12v rails X the amperage of the smallest rail (say 18a for my ocz) then figure 3/4 of it is useable to prevent over loading. For economical users not overclocking and not upgrading a 450w-500w will give you the best efficiency (25-50 percent load is where max effciciency is reached) and will give you a long lifetime. 

What I was saying in my other post is that you cannot go only by the wattage or amps, you have to take both into consideration for the best choice on output. After you figure what you need in terms of power you then need to find a suitable company to buy a unit from, with the extra features you want such as modular, pfc, low dba, etc.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> What you can look for is the amount of 12v rails X the amperage of the smallest rail (say 18a for my ocz) then figure 3/4 of it is useable to prevent over loading. For economical users not overclocking and not upgrading a 450w-500w will give you the best efficiency (25-50 percent load is where max effciciency is reached) and will give you a long lifetime.
> 
> What I was saying in my other post is that you cannot go only by the wattage or amps, you have to take both into consideration for the best choice on output. After you figure what you need in terms of power you then need to find a suitable company to buy a unit from, with the extra features you want such as modular, pfc, low dba, etc.



ok so for a four rail psu you only add 3 rails together to get accurate picture of amp supply

but what do you do if its a two rail psu? is that still 75% of the total?


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## Namslas90 (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> ok so for a four rail psu you only add 3 rails together to get accurate picture of amp supply
> 
> but what do you do if its a two rail psu? is that still 75% of the total?



Most PSU Guru's say add the rails together and subtract 30%.  
For example 18 amps + 18 amps = 36 amps .
36 X.30 =10.8 amps; 36 amps - 10.8 amps leaves you with 25.2 amps.


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

in a very short and simple anwser keakar....YES...dont know why it made sence to me ,but I always did the total math, then used the efficiency % to finish the equation. Say a PSU is 70% eff. then I figured if a PSU is rated for 50amps, when at full load it should truely provide only say 35 of those 50 amps.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

now what to make of the psu that have high amp ratings on the rails like these:

http://www.pcpower.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T1KWSR&view=techspecs

the amps are higher then the wires can handle and they dont seem to follow the guidelines?

what do you think about the claims made here?

http://www.pcpower.com/technology/myths/#8


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

Namslas90 said:


> Most PSU Guru's say add the rails together and subtract 30%.
> For example 18 amps + 18 amps = 36 amps .
> 36 X.30 =10.8 amps; 36 amps - 10.8 amps leaves you with 25.2 amps.



i am guessing that the amps for the 3.3v and 5v rails are standard amounts so it is not necessary to concider them in the equation but some psu have very high amps listed on these rails so why is that?


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

Well if you do the math that Namslas and I were just speaking of ....that 72amp rail drops down below 60 amps capability!

Hell my OCZGSX700 says 4X18amp rails...which is then 72amps on all 4 rails right? I dont think so it also is in the 60amp range as well I promise ya.


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## Namslas90 (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> now what to make of the psu that have high amp ratings on the rails like these:
> 
> http://www.pcpower.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T1KWSR&view=techspecs
> 
> ...



If you look at those PSU's and all the other PSU's over 1000 watts they have better wires, then a standard PSU.  Somebody here at TPU has allready verified this I THINK is was HeavyH20, but I could be wrong.


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## Namslas90 (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> i am guessing that the amps for the 3.3v and 5v rails are standard amounts so it is not necessary to concider them in the equation but some psu have very high amps listed on these rails so why is that?



Internally all PSU's are 12v so the 5v and 3.3v rails are just devided from a 12 volt rail/portion of the psu.  The voltage is changed but the amps are not affected in the devision of voltage(or at least not much).


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

well the 700watt ocz psu has this:

+3.3@36A,+5V@30A,+12V1@18A,+12V2@18A,+12V3@18A,+ 12V4@18A,-12V@0.8A,+5VSB@3.0A 

now there must be a reason to have higher amps on the 3.3v and 5v rails than the 12v rail? why?


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

Do the math on the sticker provided by OCZ its near impossible for those numbers to be correct or I'd have a 1000W PSU...here math provided

+3.3 X 36A =118.8W

+5 X 30A = 150W

+12(1-4) X 72A(all combined) + 864

now that leave us with this 118.8 + 150 + 864 = 1132.8W ?????

now even divide with the 30% rule  thats 1132.8 X 0.30=339.84W loss

1132.8 - 339.84 =792.96 W total to be delivered by this PSU.

With all that in mind then why is it when this PSU is badged by its OEM (FSP) they label it as a 600W PSU.....As stated B4 it is a ploy by manufacturers to get you on the "OMG look what this has" train of thought.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

sneekypeet said:


> Do the math on the sticker provided by OCZ its near impossible for those numbers to be correct or I'd have a 1000W PSU...here math provided
> 
> +3.3 X 36A =118.8W
> 
> ...



well there is why i get so confused by it all. just because you have watts doesnt mean you have amps and the 12v rails seam to have less and less amps now because of more rails.

now if you cant go by the stated amps on the label then we are buying blind.

if we cant believe these numbers then why can we believe any ocz numbers they state?

here s the website info on it: http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/power_management/ocz_gamexstream_power_supply-sli_ready_
and the label: http://www.ocztechnology.com/drivers/GameXstream_700W_chart.jpg


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## sneekypeet (Sep 17, 2007)

All i can say is do alot of homework and dont just read from one place. The review database was a huge help when I purchased mine(found right here at TPU). That is where I found it was in fact a rebadged FSP. Now I purchased on old experiences (Antec NEO 550 blew up) and word of mouth branding, and lots of reading. I think after all that info processed ,I bought the best my money at the time could afford. Guess all in all it is still sort of a craps shoot, but as posted here B4 ALL COMP PARTS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL....even same brand and model, the two of them could perform completely different!

If you want a more scientific answer , wait for Kenny as he has the fresh knowledge of electric science, hell even Namslas has a better grasp. All in all just read and take it all with a grain of salt. Do the math yourself, then buy what makes the most sence in all aspects, and hope to hell you dont get something built on a Friday @ 2:30pm.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

well to start your homework you need to know what the important facts are and where to get those facts from to make your conclusions about the subject.

everytime i get to a base guideline it is proved to be phony.

stated watts are lied about and exagerated (so you dont have acurate watts to calculate your amps)

stated amps are lied about and exagerated (so the subtracting 25 - 30% rule wont work)

wire size is not listed to even know if they are lying about the amps on them

so i ask you, how are we supposed to come to a conclusion when we dont have real facts?


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> you are totally incorrect here, anytime a wire has been cut and reconnected by a connector of any kind you will experience a "small" voltage and amperage drop due to the fact that the connection is not solid but plugs and unplugs. corrosion and oxidation on these pins and sockets further increases the voltage and amperage drop through this connection. a solid wire unbroken and solered to the board is always better than a plug in type connection.
> 
> the higher the quality of the connector and the type of metal it is made from will determine how much drop occurs but it is a guaranteed fact you will experience voltage and amperage drop.
> 
> any basic electronics book will tell you that.



thanks for backing up my point


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Keakar if you look at the sticker on my power supply it shows a maximum of 680w (57*12=684w thats where I got the 57amps from). If I were to try and run all four rails at 18amps I would be at 72amps and my psu would be overloaded seeing as that would be 864w (12*72) coming from a 700w psu.
> 
> Panchoman the reason for the 18a is the amount of current going over the wire. Most power supply's are wired with 16ga to 18ga wire. 16ga can carry 22a without overloading and 18ga can carry 16a without overloading (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm). The 18a limit is a safety precaution so you don't draw 72amp over one wire and start an electrical fire.
> 
> ...



yes you do seem very argutive, if you want to argue with me, i'm sure we can start a new thread thats a battlefield for single rail vs. multi rail, but this guide is meant for contributing information to the community to help them select better psu's.


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

guys, i have one question to ask you, lets say i have a cpu using 7 amps of the 18 amps that are being supplied to it on its own rail, and lets say i have a compressor or someother power hungry thing on another rail demanding 22A on the 18A rail, what happens? if i'm correct, the amperage cannot be rerouted from the cpu rail to the rail with the compressor because the max the rail can handle is 18A, and the compressor is demanding 22A. what happens when you want to use that compressor? if i'm right, then the the psu wont be able to power that compressor, because it cannot supply 22A on a 18A rail, let along that the 10A that isn't being used on the cpu rail cannot be rerouted to another rail. however if i used the compressor on a single 60A rail, it would work, correct? also because i'm just a kid in high school and i cant understand half the stuff, you guys can rewrite your own rails paragraph and pm it to me with links to back up what you're stating and i'll put the best one up, otherwise i will not lean either way on the rails idea, and leave it to the reader to decide.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

think of it like this, all the power is in one bucket where you have lets say 50 amps

your rails are limited to lets call it 18 amps, now you say you used 8 amps from one rail

now all the rails can each give you up to 18 amps but no more then that because they have a regulator that wont allow more then that.

any device can use power from the 12v rail up to that 18 amp limit. 

things like video cards drawing lots of power are spread out over the rails so the pci bus is giving it amps and the 12v rail is giving it amps so it doesnt draw all the amps from the plug but also from the pci socket so no one leg needs to supply more than 18 amps.

that is the general explanation but im not totally clear on specifics as to exactly how the amps are divided up.


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

what about running a compressor or a tec unit? i dont think the pci bus can supply a compressor extra amps which the psu cant supply to it due to rail limitations. and i wonder why we need to buy seperate single rail psu's for a tec system? why cant we just have a dedicated rail on the psu for a tec?


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

panchoman said:


> what about running a compressor or a tec unit? i dont think the pci bus can supply a compressor extra amps which the psu cant supply to it due to rail limitations. and i wonder why we need to buy seperate single rail psu's for a tec system? why cant we just have a dedicated rail on the psu for a tec?



because a single rail psu isnt limited to 18 amps, it can run higher amps if it has heavier wires and this is why the extra psu is needed so it can supply the higher amps needed.

also im just guessing here but i  believe seperating the power supplies is a protection thing so if there is a failure it wont take down the whole system.


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> because a single rail psu isnt limited to 18 amps, it can run higher amps if it has heavier wires and this is why the extra psu is needed so it can supply the higher amps needed.
> 
> also im just guessing here but i  believe seperating the power supplies is a protection thing so if there is a failure it wont take down the whole system.



i had a dual rail psu before, and the only thing that died was the hdd, and dont try to tell me that only the hdd was on one rail...

tecs require a lot of power, and a capped rail cant supply it, but a single rail psu can supply the tec with enough.


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## keakar (Sep 17, 2007)

panchoman said:


> i had a dual rail psu before, and the only thing that died was the hdd, and dont try to tell me that only the hdd was on one rail...
> 
> tecs require a lot of power, and a capped rail cant supply it, but a single rail psu can supply the tec with enough.



there are no certaintees but to limit what is connected will limit what can be damaged. it can take out nothing as easy as it takes out everything. i seen it take out just the case fan already so there is pure luck as to what if anything can be taken out.

as for single rail, that is exactly what i just said. you asked why they use a seperate psu and that is why, to get enough juice because a single rail puts out more amps because it is not limited to 18 amps output.


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## panchoman (Sep 17, 2007)

keakar said:


> there are no certaintees but to limit what is connected will limit what can be damaged. it can take out nothing as easy as it takes out everything. i seen it take out just the case fan already so there is pure luck as to what if anything can be taken out.
> 
> as for single rail, that is exactly what i just said. you asked why they use a seperate psu and that is why, to get enough juice because a single rail puts out more amps because it is not limited to 18 amps output.



there we go, so if a single rail psu can work safely and not have any overloads, idk whats so good about a multi psu.


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

panchoman said:


> there we go, so if a single rail psu can work safely and not have any overloads, idk whats so good about a multi psu.



well were it has trouble is in more total amps so it adds limited amperage rails so you get higher total amps but not more amps for use on any one rail

so the extra amperage from the power supply is passed through the board

assume you have a psu with total of 54 amps on 4 rails limited to 18 amps each,

lets say the cpu uses 8 amps so you have 10 amps left that can be used from that leg

so the board sends it to the pci bus to use

now you have a video card needing 20 amps, but no one rail can supply it because of the 18 amp limits on each rail. what happens is the video card takes the 10 amps available from the pci bus and uses 6 of those amps and then the second rail gives it the remaining 14 amps it needs to get its 20 amp total. this has used up two of the four 18 amp rails and used 28 amps.

this now leaves you with only two rails remaining to power the rest of the computer but you only have a total of 26 amps left to use from the original 54 amps. (54-28 = 26 amps left)

now the rest of the computer is powered on these two remaining rails but again neither one of which can give more than 18 amps so it is divided up as balanced as you can.

most people wont need more than two rails and unless you have a real high powered video card (8800 ultra) you wont need a 4 rail psu.

if your system isnt very power hungry a single rail would do for powering your sytem but i think at least 2 rails is the way to go because later if you make future video upgrades you dont want to have to replace the psu. really power hungry high end video cards or SLI or crossfire setups is the only reason to use 4 rails IMHO.


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## panchoman (Sep 18, 2007)

keakar said:


> well were it has trouble is in more total amps so it adds limited amperage rails so you get higher total amps but not more amps for use on any one rail
> 
> so the extra amperage from the power supply is passed through the board
> 
> ...



okay so i'm just going to do it neutral aight, it doesn't really matter so, both types of psu's are very good so. and the topic is now closed, along with modular, if you want to correct something else or contribute to the brand/oem list by looking up the oem of the psu you have, that'd be great. i'll be finishing up the guide sometime this week when i find time(probably the weekends)


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

panchoman said:


> okay so i'm just going to do it neutral aight, it doesn't really matter so, both types of psu's are very good so. and the topic is now closed, along with modular, if you want to correct something else or contribute to the brand/oem list by looking up the oem of the psu you have, that'd be great. i'll be finishing up the guide sometime this week when i find time(probably the weekends)



yes keeping it neutral would be a good idea because each type of psu has its good and bad points so weather you use single, dual, or quad rail psu, each can be a good choice depending on the application your using it on.


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## panchoman (Sep 18, 2007)

keakar said:


> yes keeping it neutral would be a good idea because each type of psu has its good and bad points so weather you use single, dual, or quad rail psu, each can be a good choice depending on the application your using it on.



most people dont even notice the difference so. though one question i have is: why do tecs require their own psu?


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

i dont know anything about using tecs but the way they are made can have a very dramatic failure when they go out. if they just fail due to an open circuit in them it is no big deal but if they short out they can blow dramatically and with enough power to zap anything on the same line. think of them as a light socket, when you stick a screwdriver in the socket it will flash pretty good and the fuse will trip but before it does it may or may not melt the wire to the lamp. now think of that in terms of the computer being the lamp wire.

i know that tecs are very finiky about having a strong and stable power supply, even minor variations can easily cause them to fail.  im not sure but i think they also require a lot of amps to run so it is like double insurance to seperate the power supply for safety in protecting the other computer circuits and also since it has its own power supply it has very strong amps and a stable power supply for running. 

the other parts of the computer cause fluctuations in the power supply as power demands change so it is always fluctuating.


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

panchoman said:


> most people dont even notice the difference so. ?



well i did learn from all this that the psu is different depending on the series it is.

the atx 12v has certain guidelines and amperage limits 

the atx 1.1 has certain guidelines and amperage limits that are different

the atx 2.0 has certain guidelines and amperage limits that are different

the atx 2.2 has certain guidelines and amperage limits that are different 

each one has different specs from the other as far as amperages, rails, and watts.

so it is very very confusing but the higher the series number it seems the lower the 12v rail amp limit goes but the more rails you get. i think thats where most of the confusion was, comparing psu with different designs so they werent working the same.


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## Wile E (Sep 18, 2007)

keakar said:


> i dont know anything about using tecs but the way they are made can have a very dramatic failure when they go out. if they just fail due to an open circuit in them it is no big deal but if they short out they can blow dramatically and with enough power to zap anything on the same line. think of them as a light socket, when you stick a screwdriver in the socket it will flash pretty good and the fuse will trip but before it does it may or may not melt the wire to the lamp. now think of that in terms of the computer being the lamp wire.
> 
> i know that tecs are very finiky about having a strong and stable power supply, even minor variations can easily cause them to fail.  im not sure but i think they also require a lot of amps to run so it is like double insurance to seperate the power supply for safety in protecting the other computer circuits and also since it has its own power supply it has very strong amps and a stable power supply for running.
> 
> the other parts of the computer cause fluctuations in the power supply as power demands change so it is always fluctuating.


You pretty much got it. But the biggest reason, is the sheer amount of power they pull. The TEC that I had pulled near 20A on it's own. A constant 20A draw can get very hard on a normal psu, not to mention cause power issues with other components. Plus, it actually usually ends up being slightly cheaper to run an aux psu, rather than spend the money on an uber psu capable of handling the load a TEC can consume.

But, as you can tell from the link in my sig, not setting it up properly, can result in disaster.


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

Wile E said:


> But, as you can tell from the link in my sig, not setting it up properly, can result in disaster.



yes, but that was your own fault for spending too much time flirting with that cashier lol.


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

Wile E said:


> You pretty much got it. But the biggest reason, is the sheer amount of power they pull. The TEC that I had pulled near 20A on it's own. A constant 20A draw can get very hard on a normal psu, not to mention cause power issues with other components. Plus, it actually usually ends up being slightly cheaper to run an aux psu, rather than spend the money on an uber psu capable of handling the load a TEC can consume.
> 
> But, as you can tell from the link in my sig, not setting it up properly, can result in disaster.



i am assuming a single rail psu is best to run a tec then?

and maybe a dual rail is best to run a tec with a waterpump for water cooling system?


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## Wile E (Sep 18, 2007)

keakar said:


> yes, but that was your own fault for spending too much time flirting with that cashier lol.


lol. Funny, but I think you're thinking of the wrong person. At least as far as my TEC mishap is concerned. lol.


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## panchoman (Sep 18, 2007)

well yeah, thats what i was thinking off, is why not just get a pcp&c single rail 1000 psu, it'll power your 20A tec and still have 60A left over to power your 500W system, and its single rail so it'll be able to draw with no problems as long as you have enough power for it. but then again, many pumps use their own power which they draw from the wall. a p35 chipset board with a q6600 g0 and a 2900xt will be able to run on a 500W psu. and so addind lets say 300Watts worth of tec's and a pump to a 1000w psu with a powerful 80A rail shouldn't be a problem. and it'd just be cheaper then buying an aux (and dont skimp on the relay switch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) everytime i think about tecs and aux psu's, i always think of you and what happend wile e.


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## Wile E (Sep 18, 2007)

panchoman said:


> well yeah, thats what i was thinking off, is why not just get a pcp&c single rail 1000 psu, it'll power your 20A tec and still have 60A left over to power your 500W system, and its single rail so it'll be able to draw with no problems as long as you have enough power for it. but then again, many pumps use their own power which they draw from the wall. a p35 chipset board with a q6600 g0 and a 2900xt will be able to run on a 500W psu. and so addind lets say 300Watts worth of tec's and a pump to a 1000w psu with a powerful 80A rail shouldn't be a problem. and it'd just be cheaper then buying an aux *(and dont skimp on the relay switch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)* everytime i think about tecs and aux psu's, i always think of you and what happend wile e.


I lol'ed.

But the fact of the matter is, a relay switch and Meanwell can be had for about $120 shipped to your door. Add the $130 I spent on my main psu, and you have $250. A quality 1000w psu costs a fair bit more than that. Although some can be had for around that price. But, even still, thru testing, the aux psu setup proves to be more stable, which is why it's the preferred method.


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

panchoman said:


> well yeah, thats what i was thinking off, is why not just get a pcp&c single rail 1000 psu, it'll power your 20A tec and still have 60A left over to power your 500W system, and its single rail so it'll be able to draw with no problems as long as you have enough power for it. but then again, many pumps use their own power which they draw from the wall. a p35 chipset board with a q6600 g0 and a 2900xt will be able to run on a 500W psu. and so addind lets say 300Watts worth of tec's and a pump to a 1000w psu with a powerful 80A rail shouldn't be a problem. and it'd just be cheaper then buying an aux (and dont skimp on the relay switch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) everytime i think about tecs and aux psu's, i always think of you and what happend wile e.



well even though you have plenty of power it will still fluctuate as things draw more and less power so it would cause failure if you used a tec. without the tec i dont see a problem but most of the limits they used on the rails were for safety so they had system protection in mind. a single rail wouldnt give you as much protection if it failed. price might be an issue as well, but i cant see any reason you cant use the single rail as long as it has enough power for your needs. heat production and energy efficiency might be different as well.


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## panchoman (Sep 18, 2007)

i noticed something: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/3...ry_Power_Supply_SE-600-24.html?tl=g30c105s190 

its a 24v psu, the regular psu's are 12 5 and 3.3. i hope companies are working on more eco friendly tecs!!!

is it just mean or that thing huge? looks like one of those longass 1600 psu's only its slimmer, thats one huge rail, and this thing is suppossed to fit in the 5 25 bays?


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## keakar (Sep 18, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> The transformer has a maximum output of 57amp. here is a picture of the OCZ GameXstream pcb showing how the single transformer outputs into a common rail, which is then devided and limited to 18amp each.



all you need to do to get a single rail out of a 4 rail psu is to bridge the terminals it shows here. it starts as one big juction then crosses over the limiting device to 4 individual rails. if you crossed the 4 rails you would only get a single 18amp rail but if you bridged each rail to the main juction you bypass the limits and get full use from any rail. this is not recommended because pulling too much can overheat and melt the wires. it would allow you to get that 20 amps you needed from one rail though. this would only work if the wire was rated to handle that much juice. this would be a last resort type of mod.


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

keakar said:


> all you need to do to get a single rail out of a 4 rail psu is to bridge the terminals it shows here. it starts as one big juction then crosses over the limiting device to 4 individual rails. if you crossed the 4 rails you would only get a single 18amp rail but if you bridged each rail to the main juction you bypass the limits and get full use from any rail. this is not recommended because pulling too much can overheat and melt the wires. it would allow you to get that 20 amps you needed from one rail though. this would only work if the wire was rated to handle that much juice. this would be a last resort type of mod.



but with the proper setup, wouldn't you say that this method is more effective? 

oh and wile e, would you like to share some info on that mean well psu and possibly provide us with its ul number so that we can find out how the oem for it is? if you, it'd really help cause i'll be putting up a tec section. heres some updates that i'm going to do over the weekend(and some over the week if i find time): 

-color coding revamp for the 3rd time

-19 more brands (this could take longer, its my last thing on the to do list for this guide) 

-updating rails and modular sections(i'll be erasing the sections today, will rewrite em l8r) 

- adding auxiliary psu information.


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## keakar (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> but with the proper setup, wouldn't you say that this method is more effective?



well thats hard to say because i thing what makes one better than the other is how it fits your computer setup. 

depending on your power needs a single rail is better for lower amperge needs but when you get to higher amperages the wires just cant handle that many amps so they need special premium grade wires of higher guages. this got exspensive to do so they decided to just run more than one wire to power the same source and thats how dual rails were born and again with sli and crossfire they needed even more amps so they kept adding rails.

when it comes down to it they are just using two wires together to power the same thing but instead of connecting the wires together they run power through the board as well as directly from the plug. but your still just connecting 2 wires from the same power source to 1 device.

a 2 rail psu using 14 guage wire can safely supply the system with up to 32 amps on each leg and 12 guage wire can safely supply the system with up to 41 amps on each leg according to this chart: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> but with the proper setup, wouldn't you say that this method is more effective?
> 
> oh and wile e, would you like to share some info on that mean well psu and possibly provide us with its ul number so that we can find out how the oem for it is? if you, it'd really help cause i'll be putting up a tec section. heres some updates that i'm going to do over the weekend(and some over the week if i find time):
> 
> ...


No Prob. The UL# is E183223, and the OEM is Mean Well themselves. The model # is SP-320-12. It's a 12v 320W peak switching PSU with pfc. It's rated for 25A, and is 86% efficient at full load with 230V AC input.

It's actually an industrial psu. That's the market Mean Well is targeted to. It's not directly marketed for the computer market.

I attached the test sheets.


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

theres not much of a difference, they're basically the same, same trasnsformer, multi rails aren't truely multi rail, same transformer, only with multi rail the power is seperated into different wires. bridge the rails and you have single rail.


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> No Prob. The UL# is E183223, and the OEM is Mean Well themselves. The model # is SP-320-12. It's a 12v 320W peak switching PSU with pfc. It's rated for 25A, and is 86% efficient at full load with 230V AC input.
> 
> It's actually an industrial psu. That's the market Mean Well is targeted to. It's not directly marketed for the computer market.
> 
> I attached the test sheets.



ah very good, thanks for the ul number, i'll put it up on the brand/oem list soon. the stats of the psu are preety sweet.. while its an industrial psu, does it fit in the 5 25 bays like the other aux. psus?


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> ah very good, thanks for the ul number, i'll put it up on the brand/oem list soon. the stats of the psu are preety sweet.. while its an industrial psu, does it fit in the 5 25 bays like the other aux. psus?


Not quite. You need a bracket, and it's a bit longer than the normal 5 1/4" aux psus.


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Not quite. You need a bracket, and it's a bit longer than the normal 5 1/4" aux psus.



so how'd you mount that meanwell psu?


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## keakar (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> theres not much of a difference, they're basically the same, same trasnsformer, multi rails aren't truely multi rail, same transformer, only with multi rail the power is seperated into different wires. bridge the rails and you have single rail.



exacly, but they split it up so they can use smaller wires that are easier to manipulate amps to be safe on standard sized wire.

check this chart of wire sizes and the amps they can handle:  http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

as you can see 12 guage is limited to 41 amps and a 10 guage wire is very stiff and thick so it would be hell to run on a small wiring harness like in a computer. so i would say the12 guage @ 40 amps would be your single rail size limit per leg but running two legs as most single rails do you can easy handle 80 amps with single rail 2 leg psu.


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> so how'd you mount that meanwell psu?


Personally, I didn't have a permanent mount, as my rig never made it past the testing phase. But, I had a sheet of aluminum lined up to make a custom bracket. The psu is wider than 3 1/2", but narrower than 5 1/4". It was just a matter of cutting, bending, and drilling the sheet to make it fit in a 5 1/4" bay. Only tools needed would've been a pair of tin snips, vice, drill, and a screw driver. (Aluminum sheet is fairly easy to bend)


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

keakar said:


> exacly, but they split it up so they can use smaller wires that are easier to manipulate and also the very big transformers actually put out too many amps to be safe on one wire.
> 
> check this chart of wire sizes and the amps they can handle:  http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> 
> as you can see 12 guage is limited to 41 amps and a 10 guage wire is very stiff and thick so it would be hell to run on a small wiring harness like in a computer. so i would say the 40 amps would be your single rail size limit before going to 2 rails.



so well its like it doesn't matter, just get whichever is better via other specs. and same with modular, it doesn't matter, you just get some minor voltage drop, thats all.


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Personally, I didn't have a permanent mount, as my rig never made it past the testing phase. But, I had a sheet of aluminum lined up to make a custom bracket. The psu is wider than 3 1/2", but narrower than 5 1/4". It was just a matter of cutting, bending, and drilling the sheet to make it fit in a 5 1/4" bay. Only tools needed would've been a pair of tin snips, vice, drill, and a screw driver. (Aluminum sheet is fairly easy to bend)



i c, how long is it? i think you can just put it on the floor with the hdd's and it'd be fine there.


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## keakar (Sep 19, 2007)

IMHO a psu has only 1 rail as long as it has only 1 transformer.

to have two rails you need 2 power sources not one.

to follow the logic used to call them rails then my old psu is a two rail because it uses two molex leads coming off the same transformer. just because it has a limiter spliced in does not magically make it a seperate power source.


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> i c, how long is it? i think you can just put it on the floor with the hdd's and it'd be fine there.


It's 215mm/8.5" long. I had it on the floor of my case, but it was raised up a little with a neoprene pad, to keep the airflow holes clear.


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## keakar (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Personally, I didn't have a permanent mount, as my rig never made it past the testing phase. But, I had a sheet of aluminum lined up to make a custom bracket. The psu is wider than 3 1/2", but narrower than 5 1/4". It was just a matter of cutting, bending, and drilling the sheet to make it fit in a 5 1/4" bay. Only tools needed would've been a pair of tin snips, vice, drill, and a screw driver. (Aluminum sheet is fairly easy to bend)



why not use an old cd drive frame n throw out the guts, instant tray with pre threaded mounting holes


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> It's 215mm/8.5" long. I had it on the floor of my case, but it was raised up a little with a neoprene pad, to keep the airflow holes clear.



its not like grafix card long right? i'm too lazy to figure out those numbers. how would you compare the psu to the length of an hdd?


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

keakar said:


> why not use an old cd drive frame n throw out the guts, instant tray with pre threaded mounting holes


Hmm, hadn't thought of that, but you will still need to cut, so you can keep the airflow holes open. I was gonna go the sheet aluminum route because I had some extra laying around.


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> its not like grafix card long right? i'm too lazy to figure out those numbers. how would you compare the psu to the length of an hdd?


Well, for a point of reference, an ATX mobo is 9.6" wide. So it's roughly 1.5" shorter than a mobo is wide.


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## keakar (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Hmm, hadn't thought of that, but you will still need to cut, so you can keep the airflow holes open. I was gonna go the sheet aluminum route because I had some extra laying around.



i went to "shade tree mechanics institute of technology"


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

keakar said:


> i went to "shade tree mechanics institute of technology"


Why do you think I had extra sheet aluminum around?


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

lol, i cant do modding and stuff like take aluminium and turn it into a cage for a psu lol. they dont sell like brackets for 5 bucks?


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> lol, i cant do modding and stuff like take aluminium and turn it into a cage for a psu lol. they dont sell like brackets for 5 bucks?


Haven't seen any, personally. Swiftech sells a whole kit with the psu, relay kit, and brackets for like $150. That's too expensive, as I can buy the psu and relay kit for around $120 shipped. And they don't sell the brackets separately.


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

ah i see, well i'd be fine on the floor lol, how does the relay switch work exactly? i'm sure you have experience there..


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## Wile E (Sep 19, 2007)

panchoman said:


> ah i see, well i'd be fine on the floor lol, how does the relay switch work exactly? i'm sure you have experience there..


Well, the aux psu requires it's own power source. If you plug it straight in, it's always on. So what the relay kit is for, is to make the psu turn on, only when the main psu is on. The very basic explanation is: You hook the aux psu to the relay kit, hook the relay kit to a molex connector, then plug the relay kit into your electrical outlet. What it does is use the molex to sense when the main psu is on. When the main psu turns on, it opens an electronic switch to allow power to get to the aux psu.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 19, 2007)

Pancho it can be clearly assumed you do not like limited lines or Modular power supplies. 

Unless it is a nonstandard form factor psu it is a single transformer aka single rail unit by definition. 

For your repeated question about drawing 20amp from one lead: You will first melt the wire, and secondly only tec's use that much juice where you DEFIANTLY run a separate psu. You wouldn't want to run a 20amp tec on a normal psu, it would trip overcurrent protection on even pcp&c psu's as they all have trip points, they just say they don't.

For your repeated statements about "lost amperage" take this example. 
You have a power supply that only produces 20amp of 12v. There are two outputs each capped at 15amp. 
Rail one is the ATX 24pin connector and the PCI-E connector, Rail two is the Workstation (8pin eps) connector and a 3molex lead. 
Please explain to me how you are going to waste voltage on this psu.

BTW those with a OCZ gamexstream power supply (may apply to others with ocz psu's) I just realised my 12v wires are all color coded as to which rail they belong to. 
No stripe - 12v1 motherboard 24pin, molex/sata leads
Green Stripe - PCI-E 2 connector/2 of the 4 EPS12V leads
Blue Stripe - 2 of the 4 EPS12V leads
Black stripe - PCI-E 1 connector
(for the source nazi http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/cases/OCZ_GameXStream_700W_1.html)


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## keakar (Sep 19, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> For your repeated question about drawing 20amp from one lead: You will first melt the wire,



incorrect sir, although some smaller wires arent sufficient for high amps, if you look at the chart here: : http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

NOTE: The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission - this standard is only used for generator and alternator wires where power is being produced not converted. hence the rediculusly low amp ratings.

12 guage wire can safely handle 41 amps

14 guage wire can safely handle 32 amps

16 guage wire can safely handle 22 amps

so while i dont see multi rail psu as the only choice, it depends on the user as his needs.

now a single rail would need limiters if the transformers output exceeded the wires amp rating but as long as this did not occur a single rail can easily supply power needs for most systems


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Well, the aux psu requires it's own power source. If you plug it straight in, it's always on. So what the relay kit is for, is to make the psu turn on, only when the main psu is on. The very basic explanation is: You hook the aux psu to the relay kit, hook the relay kit to a molex connector, then plug the relay kit into your electrical outlet. What it does is use the molex to sense when the main psu is on. When the main psu turns on, it opens an electronic switch to allow power to get to the aux psu.



thank you for that explanation. you mind if i use some that (may modify it a bit) for an explanation of the switch while writing about aux. psu's?


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Pancho it can be clearly assumed you do not like limited lines or Modular power supplies.
> 
> Unless it is a nonstandard form factor psu it is a single transformer aka single rail unit by definition.
> 
> ...



it can be clearly assumed that i am neutral and on neither side of the situation at the moment because single rail and multi rail psu's are preety much the same thing only with multi rail psu's you have multi wires, which can help limit the amount of load on the wire= cheaper wires can be used in the psu. as for modular, as i said its not a problem, you just get a minor voltage drop, thats all. so i am on neither side as of now. before, i was fighting on the side for the single rail as for a debate(in a debate you're on whichever side you are selected to be on, no matter however much you support the other side) my job was to fight my case as best as i could against the other side, and to see what the eventual outcomes will be. and the outcomes are as i stated before, basically the same thing, seperated into multiple wires to prevent wire overloading. as for the voltage being wasted, keaker has already explained how the voltage can be routed from one source to another via the mobo so that topic is also finished. please find a new topic


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## panchoman (Sep 19, 2007)

keakar said:


> incorrect sir, although some smaller wires arent sufficient for high amps, if you look at the chart here: : http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
> 
> NOTE: The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission - this standard is only used for generator and alternator wires where power is being produced not converted. hence the rediculusly low amp ratings.
> 
> ...



yup yup, multi rail psu's are slightly cheaper since they use higher gauage cabling, so thats that. 

anyway, if you guys want to contribute to the guide by writing new material or rewriting some of my material, please pm me. keaker has done a great job at rewriting and cleaning up some of the paragraphs and i'll be adding his stuff very soon. thanks a lot keaker. and also if you want a suggestion kenny, you seem to know the wattage and amperage stuff very well, why dont you write a bit on that? like explain the wattage formula and how psu labels can have incorrect info, the 30% rule, etc. etc. and i'll add that to the advanced portion of the guide. also dont forget that you can easily contribute to this guide just by checking the oem of the psu you have at home via the ul number and making sure it matchs with the brand/oem list, you guys can just post it right on here if you have a different oem then what's listed and if the oem you have on your psu matchs the one i have.


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## KennyT772 (Sep 20, 2007)

(I'm going to try to be as non-argumenitive from here on out, so bear with me)

The Wiring in almost all power supplies is 16ga, with some wires such as 5vsb/-12v/psu-on being smaller gauge (no more than 2-3 amp over the wire). You may verify this yourself by checking any psu's you have against eachother. Some units may have higher than that but I have yet to hear/see/read a review of anything with high gauge wire being noted. Not even the PCP&C psu's have more than say 14ga (which still cannot carry the psu's full amount of current). 

(Heres my contributions to the guide)
Power supply ratings - The reality of Watts
Every consumer power supply today has a output rating in watts. Some are the absolute maximum they will output before overload, and some are the normal continuous output. 

When it comes to buying a power supply there are several things you want to pay attention to other than just the wattage. Number one is the brand, as a 1000w psu from one company may be a waste of money vs a 750w from another company. Second is efficiency, which I will outline later. Lastly you want to look for PFC or *P*ower *F*actor *C*orrection, Modular/Non, Silent, Asthetics.

All of this wattage business generally confuses most people, as logic would tell you more is better although that isn't always the case. In terms of wattage the main thing to look for is the total number of +12v Amps. This is where the "more is better" mantra rings true. Finding that number for any given power supply (referred to as PSU from now on) can however be a slight challenge. 

Take my psu for example. I have a OCZ 700w GameXStream psu (NewEgg link http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341002). 
According to its specs it produces 700w (unknown if max or continuous) and the specified current for each voltage:
+3.3@36A (118.8w)
+5V@30A  (150w)
+12V1@18A (216w)
+12V2@18A (216w)
+12V3@18A (216w)
+12V4@18A (216w)
-12V@0.8A (9.6w)
+5VSB@3.0A (15w)
Already you should start to notice that if you add all of those up you are well over 700w and above even 1000w. If the psu output those kind of numbers all the time it would produce 1157.4w, so something has to be up if it is only a 700w unit. 
That answer is a current limiter. These are placed in several areas in a psu to prevent overloading a wire to prevent damage or fire, or to prevent overloading the transformer and burning it out. Some of these limit by amps and some limit by watts. While these maximum numbers say the unit is capable of over 1000w the limiters prevent that so you cannot overheat the psu. According to the sticker on the side of the psu this is how the numbers break down. 
The combined output of the +3.3v and +5v is < 155w, combined output of all +12v is <50amp or 600w, combined output of -12v and +5vsb is 20w. Combined +3.3v, +5v, +12v must be under 680w, total output <700w. Maximum amperage is 70amp. 
This may seem complicated but it describes how these limiters are setup inside this unit. 

Now that we have the wattage explained lets talk about finding the correct psu for your computer. Say the computer in question uses roughly 500w full load, with no overclocking. The general rule of thumb is that your computer should only use about 75% of the psu's capacity. This way you have prolonged life of the part, less heat and noise, better efficiency, and overclocking/upgrade headroom. So that means for your 500w computer you would want a unit between 650w and 675. Any psu above 400w should have at least 5/8 of its power on the 12v rail so 650 X (5/8) = about 400w / 12v = 33amp.

Next you want to narrow your search down to 650w+ units with at least 33amp of current on the 12v rail. Here is where things start to get very interesting - 12v rails. One rail, two rails, three, five, which is right for you? All normal sized psu's have a single transformer that takes the 110v/220v from the wall and turns it into dc. From there the current is changed into 3.3v, 5v, etc. With todays power supplies having so much current on the 12v rail some strange things were starting to happen. Motherboards started pulling so much current that the wires would melt, causing fires or at the least frying the power supply. As part of the ATX12v spec limited rails were introduced to prevent this overload from happening. This spec required a limit of 18a over any one 12v output. Most psu's have 16ga wire, which at the most can supply 22a of current before overheating and melting the wire. 

You are wondering why I just gave you the history lesson, well that is how the multi-rail power supply business started, as a safety spec. Now it just adds more confusion for consumers. What you want to look for is the total output of the rails, not simply 18a times the amount of rails. For this OCZ the max for all rails combined is 50a. Other units may not list a maximum. 

That is all I have time to write for now, I need sleep.


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## Wile E (Sep 20, 2007)

panchoman said:


> thank you for that explanation. you mind if i use some that (may modify it a bit) for an explanation of the switch while writing about aux. psu's?


Np. You can use it if you want.


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## panchoman (Sep 20, 2007)

thanks for the contribution kenny, i'll be reading over it, editing it, and adding it tommorow hopeuflly.


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## panchoman (Sep 24, 2007)

hey, finally found time to work on the guide. what color should the cautious psu's be?


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## keakar (Sep 24, 2007)

panchoman said:


> hey, finally found time to work on the guide. what color should the cautious psu's be?



well any color really as long as it is a dark shade so it stands out against the white background.  

how about purple? its color is mixed blue and red and it denotes a choice inbetween blue and red colored choices?

if you cant decide then post a few choices here in the forum and see how they look, then just delete the post.

many of the reference material has colored backgrounds so their choice in color doesnt always look good when on white bg.

EDIT: great job, keep up the good work.


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## panchoman (Sep 24, 2007)

ty keaker, i've changed the color, and the purple looks excellent.  i've also going to be changing 2 oems: 

seventeam has advanced a rank to green. seeing that the manufacture the olmypia and decathalon series for silverstone, which is a very series and all and they make cooler master psu's, those are the 2 man psu brands they work with and both brands are great. they have a sprinkle of products in the ultra line and we know that there are quite a few ultra psu's that are actually very good and now we can say why. also im advancing  etasis, which also makes silverstone psu's and their own psu's, seeing that the silverstone psu's are excellent, their own psu's are probably as well. 

and also i'll be updating the guide with the stuff you sent me and then some tec stuff by wile e and some supplemental wattage stuf by kenny.

also if you guys find any typo's or errors or just my slang, just lemme know here and then i can correct it


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## panchoman (Sep 24, 2007)

oh god keaker, i just updated the intro that you sent me, and i started reading the rest and man thats a huge load of info lol, and i got kenny's info on wattage and stuff too man, i gotta move you guys towards the end of the to do list lol, too lazy to go through all the info and then consolidate it and then revamp it lol. so instead i'm going to be adding wile e's stuff on tecs and then maybe work on the first part of the guide, since all the info you guys sent me if like for the second part.


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## panchoman (Sep 25, 2007)

to do list for this guide as of today: (probably will process some of these next week) 

- adding info on auxiliary psu's --- done   how do i do strikethrough?

-adding lots of info on wattage and stuff like that.

- working more on part 1. 

-19 more brands coming out for the brand/oem list, if you need a brand thats not on the guide already, just drop me a pm or post here and i'll do it first cause it'll take a long while before i get all 19 up lol 

the list is sorta in order priority wise lol.


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## intel igent (Sep 27, 2007)

nice little tid-bit of info here pancho 

according to that calc my powerstream520 is still up to task


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## Fuse-Wire (Sep 27, 2007)

just gotta thnk you pancho. thats some guide, think ill have to print it off to go through it again later, top notch!


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## panchoman (Sep 27, 2007)

thanks for the compliment guys, i'm working on the guide today so make sure you print it out later


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## panchoman (Sep 27, 2007)

okay, aux. psu up.


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## Wile E (Sep 27, 2007)

panchoman said:


> okay, aux. psu up.


Looking good. Couple of notes. Most people run a 12v aux psu for TECs, as most TECs used in computers, are designed to operate in the 12-15v range. Note: that's most, but not all. Mine is rated for 12v, but will run happily at 14v. You should probably mention that somewhere along the lines.

Also wanted to add that you could use a 12v Mean Well to power a gfx card, if you desired. It is a switching psu with pfc. You would just have to make your own PCIe lead. (Plus all the other fabrication associated with running one) You could easily buy one of those molex to PCIe adapters, and cut the molex connectors off, and use that to hook to the card and the psu.


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## panchoman (Sep 27, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Looking good. Couple of notes. Most people run a 12v aux psu for TECs, as most TECs used in computers, are designed to operate in the 12-15v range. Note: that's most, but not all. Mine is rated for 12v, but will run happily at 14v. You should probably mention that somewhere along the lines.
> 
> Also wanted to add that you could use a 12v Mean Well to power a gfx card, if you desired. It is a switching psu with pfc. You would just have to make your own PCIe lead. (Plus all the other fabrication associated with running one) You could easily buy one of those molex to PCIe adapters, and cut the molex connectors off, and use that to hook to the card and the psu.



oh okay, i'll edit it in a bit, i didn't know i the mean well would power the cards or not, i know like the itx psu's that are built for that can, but wasn't sure bout the mean well. 

thanks for the update. you're already on the list of contributors btw.


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## panchoman (Oct 6, 2007)

okay, aux psu stuff updated wile e, finally got around to updating it, the rest of the guide i think will be updated on monday, have the day off so.


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## Flamingsupernova (Oct 7, 2007)

is cooler master a good brand of PSU? I'd like to get the 600W iGreen for my new rig.


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## intel igent (Oct 7, 2007)

im looking for reccomendations on a new psu. ive currently got a powerstream 520 but id like to upgrade to something a little more powerfull as ill be adding an extra pump and more fans and quite possibly a x1950. ive been trying to find a powerstream 620 but i cant find one, im looking for something with a SINGLE 12v rail NOT 2,3 or 4 12v rails i dont need them and i think that 1 12v rail is more stable than multiples. ive already got 33a? on the 12v so itll have to be higher than that.

seems like all i can find are multi-rail psu's

thanx TPU!


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## KennyT772 (Oct 7, 2007)

There is a reason you can pretty much only find multi-rail psus, its part of the ATX12v spec. Find something with 45a combined. There are a variety of 600w and 650w units that will provide that, check the first page of the thread for some options. 

Not to insult you but what you think about rails is wrong. There is no difference in stability, power output, or general quality of power. If you read my information on this thread you will see that. Running a single rail psu is a lot like having a home with no breaker box, just a master breaker. With no individual breakers and you overload a wire theres nothing to stop it. Now if you have a breakers for everything, you set a maximum current over those wires. Just a safety precaution. Change your mind?


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## intel igent (Oct 7, 2007)

what do i look like a LAMB? 

NO you didnt change my mind. thnx 4 trying. 

"not to insult you but what you think about rails is wrong" i dont think so. 

just because i ask advice on what to buy doesnt mean that i dont know what im buying. you bump your head lately? and NO i will not sit here and have a flamewar with you. my e-penis is lrg enough already.

SPECIFICALLY IM LOOKING FOR A SINGLE 12V RAIL PSU WITH GOOD EFFICIENCY AND MORE THAN 33a @ 12v. THNX.

i dont need or want a multi rail psu.

thnx TPU!

heres another GOOD psu guide http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=136602


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## Wile E (Oct 7, 2007)

intel igent said:


> what do i look like a LAMB?
> 
> NO you didnt change my mind. thnx 4 trying.
> 
> ...


I won't go into the single vs multi debate, there's no definitive evidence for either being better, but I will make a couple recommendations that are seemingly against your wishes, but trust me, they are not.

Corsair 520 and 620 HX. They're listed as multi rail, but they actually are not. They are split "after the fact". Even if it was a true multi rail, there's no OC protection on the rails, so all power will go thru one rail if you desire. I have the 620, and I would recommend it to absolutely anyone that doesn't need more power than that. 50A on the 12v, 40A for the 520.

Here's Jonny Guru's review. http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=32

Make sure to read the addendum.


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## intel igent (Oct 7, 2007)

Wile E said:


> I wont go into the single vs multi debate. Corsair 520 and 620 HX. They're listed as multi rail, but they actually are not.



so dont. i am well aware that these psu's operate on a single 12v rail IF they do not detect devices attached to +12v2/+12v3. however i think these are equvalent to my current psu as its been stated that OCZ underrated the powerstream series. what good is a psu with no OC protection? good reccomendation.


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## Wile E (Oct 7, 2007)

intel igent said:


> what good is a psu with no OC protection? good reccomendation.


Because it behaves as a single rail. And on these psus, they do not suffer from adverse effects from loading 1 rail more than 18A. Did you read the Jonny Guru review of it?


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## Namslas90 (Oct 7, 2007)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256016

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009


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## intel igent (Oct 7, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Because it behaves as a single rail. And on these psus, they do not suffer from adverse effects from loading 1 rail more than 18A. Did you read the Jonny Guru review of it?



to be honest i stopped reading your post when i saw that YOU were reccomending a psu with no over current protection. 

reviews from web partners ARE USELESS i want real peoples opinions not an opinion formed by a paycheque. thnx

thnx namslas90 are you using either of these?

my budget is $100-$150


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## KennyT772 (Oct 7, 2007)

Then take mine. Do you even know what rails do in a power supply? They are the over current protection. You should under no circumstance be able to load say a PCI-E 6pin + a string of molex connectors over 18a, if you do, you have a serious problem on your hands. Rails are simply overcurrent protection placed over a set of 12v wires to prevent melting wires and frying components. 

You are the one asking for no over current protection. Do not say we are telling you to get one without OC protection when you do not even understand what you are referring to.


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## Namslas90 (Oct 7, 2007)

intel igent said:


> ...thnx namslas90 are you using either of these?
> 
> my budget is $100-$150



No, I'm a Enermax fanboy, too much for your budget.  Both are reputable manufacturers.


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## Wile E (Oct 7, 2007)

intel igent said:


> to be honest i stopped reading your post when i saw that YOU were reccomending a psu with no over current protection.
> 
> reviews from web partners ARE USELESS i want real peoples opinions not an opinion formed by a paycheque. thnx


Hahahahaha. An opinion formed by a paycheck? Wow. OK, whatever man. Don't trust the review then, but JonnyGuru never did me, or anyone else I know, wrong. 

I recommend the Corsair so much due to my personal experience with it, and just use JonnyGuru as a good reference on it.

As far as no OC protection, that's not to say it doesn't have overload protection, it will just let you load any of the 12v "rails" beyond the supposed 18A limit, so long as you don't exceed it's overall rated output. And it handles that load on one "rail" with ease. If you exceed the unit's rated output, it still shuts down. OC protection is only for the rails on a multi rail psu.

Either way, those are my recommendations. If you don't like them, that's fine, but they do what you are after in terms of being high quality, and they're still a single rail, whether you would like to believe it or not.


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## intel igent (Oct 8, 2007)

kenny read this please http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=136602

wile e i knew about the corsairs already. thnx for your vote.

no i dont trust reviews from anyone thats paid to do it. sorry.


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

Flamingsupernova said:


> is cooler master a good brand of PSU? I'd like to get the 600W iGreen for my new rig.



its a decent psu, but i'd recommend somehting else.. perhaps a cheap ocz 600w instead? perhaps silerstone?


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

please no more multi rail or single psu debate. we've had enough of it. everything is marketing bs. heres the facts: 

a multi rail psu has its load divided over multiple wires "or rails" to prevent over loading the wires

theres no true multi rail psu. all psu's out there have only 1 transformer

you can bridge points on a multi rail psu and make it run as a single rail, you will hardly notice a difference other then maybe overloaded wires, etc. 

generally multi rail psus tend to be cheaper because they use lower quality wires which are not built to carry the whole load of the psu as opposed to the single rail psu's

with multi rail psus, theres a great possibility most of the time that it will not take out the whole system because the dangerous voltage spike will probably not happen across all rails.

multi rail psus cannot reroute the voltage all onto a single rail because each is rail capped. this means that you cannot really run high amp requiring things (excluding grafix cards) such as tecs, compressors, etc. this is the only advantage of single rail psu's

most high wattage psu's are multi rail 


i stopped reading this after the multi rail vs. single rail stuff started. go back a few pages and READ rather then go through this again. 

edit: one more hting, just read a few lines from that link.



> however Dual Rail PSU's that follow the specs can not power highend SLI systems.


 COMPLETE BS. THERE ARE MANY DUAL RAIL PSU'S THAT HAPPEND TO BE CERTIFIED BY NVIDIA TO RUN SLI. i refuse to accept any more of that article since it still contains factual errors and does not provide valid info


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## KennyT772 (Oct 8, 2007)

intel igent said:


> kenny read this please http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=136602
> 
> wile e i knew about the corsairs already. thnx for your vote.
> 
> no i dont trust reviews from anyone thats paid to do it. sorry.



The link you posted only applies to multi transformer units, aka 1000w and up units. Good try proving me wrong, but their post does not include any design breakdowns of various units and descriptions of where dual transformer and multi rail are different. Having two transformers is the one and only way you can have voltages more than +/-.1v of each other. 

Plain and simple rails are nothing more than a safety feature, they do not affect performance. Do not confuse this with multi transformers. Know the product you are buying, read reviews. Even if you don't trust the numbers that are given by the review, learn how the unit was assembled, look at the diagrams, the rail outputs. Example being my OCZ700w. I can tell you which cable is placed on which rail, that way I can evenly load the unit. Ignorance with computers is nothing more than stupidity.


Edit - Pancho

There are many dual transformer power supplies today. Most 1000w and up units are currently dual transformer, as a single cannot handle all of the current. 






http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM4MywzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Example of a triple transformer unit, notice the extremely long case. Currently very very few multi-transformer units can fit inside of the standard ATX psu form factor. I have yet to see or read of one but I'm guessing there is one or two in existance. 
The only larger than spec units will be multi-transformer, and even then most are in the form of a single 12v transformer plus a second for the other currents, 3.3v, 5v, -12v, 5vsb, etc.


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> The link you posted only applies to multi transformer units, aka 1000w and up units. Good try proving me wrong, but their post does not include any design breakdowns of various units and descriptions of where dual transformer and multi rail are different. Having two transformers is the one and only way you can have voltages more than +/-.1v of each other.
> 
> Plain and simple rails are nothing more than a safety feature, they do not affect performance. Do not confuse this with multi transformers. Know the product you are buying, read reviews. Even if you don't trust the numbers that are given by the review, learn how the unit was assembled, look at the diagrams, the rail outputs. Example being my OCZ700w. I can tell you which cable is placed on which rail, that way I can evenly load the unit. Ignorance with computers is nothing more than stupidity.



there have multi transformer units know? this sooo explains why thermaltake psu's are like freaking double the size of a standard psu. and you can check the multi transformity of your psu by checking the voltage on 2 leads.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 8, 2007)

Read my edited post.


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> The link you posted only applies to multi transformer units, aka 1000w and up units. Good try proving me wrong, but their post does not include any design breakdowns of various units and descriptions of where dual transformer and multi rail are different. Having two transformers is the one and only way you can have voltages more than +/-.1v of each other.
> 
> Plain and simple rails are nothing more than a safety feature, they do not affect performance. Do not confuse this with multi transformers. Know the product you are buying, read reviews. Even if you don't trust the numbers that are given by the review, learn how the unit was assembled, look at the diagrams, the rail outputs. Example being my OCZ700w. I can tell you which cable is placed on which rail, that way I can evenly load the unit. Ignorance with computers is nothing more than stupidity.
> 
> ...



i c, having a 12v transformer and a 3v-5v transformer seems a lot more sensible, i supposs thats what thermaltake psu's are. they're dual transformer know that much. they are litterally twice the size of a regular psu and dont they need a bracket to hold it up lmao.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 8, 2007)

I really suggest looking through Hardocp's psu reviews when looking for a new unit. They tear them apart and give not only lots of pictures but also capacitor brands and rail setup.


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

wanna me a link? i can add it to the psu guide.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 8, 2007)

Link to their psu section http://www.hardocp.com/reviews.html?cat=NDUsUG93ZXIgU3VwcGxpZXMgLyBQU1UsaGVudGh1c2lhc3Q=
I suggest giving them a good read whenever you have spare time. They go and test units at 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% of what they are rated and see how they hold up, all at 45c instead of the normal 25c most manufacturers rate their units at. They spent over 10k on their testing setup to push each unit to its limits. In each review they have a link to their testing methodology (link http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI4OSwsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0)


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Link to their psu section http://www.hardocp.com/reviews.html?cat=NDUsUG93ZXIgU3VwcGxpZXMgLyBQU1UsaGVudGh1c2lhc3Q=
> I suggest giving them a good read whenever you have spare time. They go and test units at 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% of what they are rated and see how they hold up, all at 45c instead of the normal 25c most manufacturers rate their units at. They spent over 10k on their testing setup to push each unit to its limits. In each review they have a link to their testing methodology (link http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI4OSwsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0)



whoa preety cool, ty


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## Wile E (Oct 8, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> I really suggest looking through Hardocp's psu reviews when looking for a new unit. They tear them apart and give not only lots of pictures but also capacitor brands and rail setup.


Jonnyguru does the teardown and inspection as well.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/reviews.php?catID=1


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## KennyT772 (Oct 8, 2007)

Ooh...never read one of jonnyguru's.


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## panchoman (Oct 8, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Jonnyguru does the teardown and inspection as well.
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/reviews.php?catID=1



thank you as well wile e


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## burebista (Oct 9, 2007)

Guys, if you want to know something about PSU's go to jonnyguru, [H]ardOCP, SPCR, pcper, Xbit Labs, hardwarecanucks.

*panchoman* I'm sure that it's a honest ideea your initial post, but at a first glance you have some mistakes:
- PFC has nothing to do with PSU efficiency, nor with voltage adjustement itself(?)
- multi rails are not so bad, especially if they're balanced (Enermax Liberty for example: 2 12V rail with 20A/rail but for a total of 30A on 12V. That's mean that if you need 20A one one rail you have 10A on another).
- OEM list. Topower is a hit and miss. Any single person that I know is avoiding like hell Topower.
Seventeam. Server grade PSU company, and they do sell under their brand. LOL, I have one in my hands. 
CWT. Their new series found in TT Toughpower, Chieftec Turbo series, Corsair VX550 or TX650, Gigabyte Odin are top notch PSU's.
Andysons. Server grade units. Higly reccomended, but you have to choose wise.
Delta. Why in the name of Earth you put Delta in red??
Same for Etasis? Red?
Gigabyte? It's a CWT. New series.
Zippy? Zippy?? Stay away from Zippy? My GOD!

I'm stopping here. Your post is a mix of good and bad things. You should reconsider it.


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## panchoman (Oct 14, 2007)

i do thank you burebista, you must realise that this guide is written based on my knowledge and sources, i do thank you for the information and i will check into the validity of your statements and update accordingly, oem's on which i do not know much info about are placed in red because i cannot say that its a good or bad product, which is why i say stay away. etasis is in green btw. and what does cwt stand for?


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## B1gg3stN00b (Oct 14, 2007)

I really have to agree on the eXtremePower 650W given the green color coding.

I'd definitely recommend it, it's an incredibly solid product. Especially for being so cheap and having a large rebate.


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## cdawall (Oct 14, 2007)

good guide so far and is getting better  maybe this will be another one of those things techies use as THE guide to PSUs?


should get w1z to add TPU approved pics for the green ones


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## panchoman (Oct 14, 2007)

cdawall said:


> good guide so far and is getting better  maybe this will be another one of those things techies use as THE guide to PSUs?
> 
> 
> should get w1z to add TPU approved pics for the green ones



sparked an idea lol. maybe i can link to tpu reviews of certian psu's within the guide lol. i'd love for this guide to become THE GUIDE lol. 

oh and also guys. i'd like to thank cdawall for contributing to this guide behind the scenes. hes also been added to the list of contributors on the guide.


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## Wile E (Oct 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> i do thank you burebista, you must realise that this guide is written based on my knowledge and sources, i do thank you for the information and i will check into the validity of your statements and update accordingly, oem's on which i do not know much info about are placed in red because i cannot say that its a good or bad product, which is why i say stay away. etasis is in green btw. and what does cwt stand for?


CWT = Channel Well. It seems that some of their series are making a turn around in quality. The Thermaltake Toughpowers and the newer Corsair VX550 are Channel Well, and are getting spectacular reviews.

Here's the Jonny Guru review of the VX550. http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=135&page_num=1


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## panchoman (Oct 14, 2007)

Wile E said:


> CWT = Channel Well. It seems that some of their series are making a turn around in quality. The Thermaltake Toughpowers and the newer Corsair VX550 are Channel Well, and are getting spectacular reviews.
> 
> Here's the Jonny Guru review of the VX550. http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=135&page_num=1



ah well, while channellwell has corrected them selfs, we must not forget hiper psu's lol.


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## Wile E (Oct 14, 2007)

panchoman said:


> ah well, while channellwell has corrected them selfs, we must not forget hiper psu's lol.


Or the Smartpowers. But yeah, just a heads up that ChannelWell is starting to do some good.

Also, a heads up that Corsair is apparently using ChannelWell in their VX series of psus.


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## panchoman (Oct 14, 2007)

will be added, ty for the info.


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## Kasparz (Oct 14, 2007)

burebista said:


> Guys, if you want to know something about PSU's go to jonnyguru, [H]ardOCP, SPCR, pcper, Xbit Labs, hardwarecanucks.
> 
> *panchoman* I'm sure that it's a honest ideea your initial post, but at a first glance you have some mistakes:
> - PFC has nothing to do with PSU efficiency, nor with voltage adjustement itself(?)
> ...


Yeah, i LOL'd about this PSU guide. Silverstone have few Etasis made beasts that Jonny put 10 for performance. Fuhjyyu caps in old CWT built Antec units were crap, but that it, don't thinks that all other CWT units are crap.


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## JC316 (Oct 16, 2007)

Yeah Channelwell is getting better, the antecs were great till they went. My toughpower is rock solid.


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## panchoman (Oct 16, 2007)

yeah, gotta update that. but we must not forget hipers and smartpowers lol.


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## JC316 (Oct 16, 2007)

panchoman said:


> yeah, gotta update that. but we must not forget hipers and smartpowers lol.



Thats 100% true, but my Smart Power did good for a year. For some reason, there was a defect in them that caused them to die, maybe bad Caps.


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## panchoman (Oct 16, 2007)

w/e the reason was, cwt lost their reputaiton right there and then. but seeing the toughpowers and corsairs, i will let good cwt products go as green and bad ones as red. and the company itself will be yellow. and a remark about the oem will be put up.


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## 3991vhtes (Oct 16, 2007)

I wouldnt recommend this guide

for example: I've used okia (broadway com corp) psu's all my life, but I've NEVER run into any problems. Also, alot of these "stay away" psu's I've used that have had lifetime warranties they never gave me or my friends who used them any problems.

this is all based on personal opinion, i do believe.

Edit- ALL of these PSU's would last a long time if no one Overclocked, instead of buying the faster CPU, but I cant say much because im a overclocker.


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## panchoman (Oct 16, 2007)

3991vhtes said:


> I wouldnt recommend this guide



is this really the place to say that. honestly i created this guide to help you guys out and what not, if you dont like it, dont use it. simple as that. you must not forget that this guide is your guide, it belongs to tpu, not to myself. many people have already contributed to improving this guide, how about you help to improve this guide?


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## 3991vhtes (Oct 16, 2007)

Im only voicing my opinion, and Im not gonna follow the guide, as I believe antec, and broadway com corp are very solid psu's.


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## panchoman (Oct 16, 2007)

3991vhtes said:


> Im only voicing my opinion, and Im not gonna follow the guide, as I believe antec, and broadway com corp are very solid psu's.




antec.. im sure you haven't experienced their smart power series as many of us have.


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## 3991vhtes (Oct 16, 2007)

^^ I'm currently using a Antec SmartPower, and i've had it for about a year (never had the chance to give it back to my friend lol), and it's still solid as a rock.


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## panchoman (Oct 16, 2007)

i will repeat this once again: 

This guide is for all you tpu users and its YOUR guide. if you dont like this guide. maybe you'd like to contribute to this guide rather then recommending against it like many of the other contributors of this guide have. i've merely laid the groundwork for this guide, then, you should try to improve your own guide. i do try my best to update it often and keep it well maintained. while this should be in the wiki so that all of you can update and edit it, however i would prefer for it to be on the forums where more people will see it. people such as keaker have already revised many parts of this guide and pmed me the revisions, which i gladly added to the guide. i wrote this guide based on information i have collected and found throughout various sources and also from my knowledge, but there are probably still inaccuracies here and there, and its the duty of you guys to point out these inaccuracies and fix them and what not, you cannot possibly expect me to do everything.


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## panchoman (Oct 16, 2007)

3991vhtes said:


> ^^ I'm currently using a Antec SmartPower, and i've had it for about a year (never had the chance to give it back to my friend lol), and it's still solid as a rock.



other smart power units beg to differ.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 16, 2007)

3991vhtes this really isn't your place from the posts I am reading. If you have been using these off brand psu's that give no issue unless you overclock that sums up the quality of the units. They are most likely spec'ed at their max output @25c, where normal conditions render it dead at 75% of its spec. Plain and simple non overclocked, non multi-gpu systems don't use a whole lot of power. Hell my p4 rig uses about 200w at full load, and thats the AC side of things. Guess what? I have a thermaltake 420w unit in there just so it stays cool and I'm not worried to death if I over load it by a little overclocking or excessive heat. 

The main descriptors of a psu's quality is the reliability at full spec, and the lifetime at that spec. Its fine and dandy if you have a 1000w psu that cost $30, but what good is it if it dies on you at a lanparty when your only asking 400w from it?


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## Frick (Oct 16, 2007)

You can be lucky with off-brand units. I brought a cheapo 350W PSU that was rock solid for 4 years. It's powering my router/firewall now. It couldn't handle my x1950pro though.. 

But I recommend this guide. I like it.


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## JC316 (Oct 16, 2007)

Frick said:


> You can be lucky with off-brand units. I brought a cheapo 350W PSU that was rock solid for 4 years. It's powering my router/firewall now. It couldn't handle my x1950pro though..
> 
> But I recommend this guide. I like it.




Lol, there is a 300W power supply that came with a $20 case thats STILL powering my XP machine with FX5900 inside. I built that machine in early 2002, so thats 5 years.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 16, 2007)

JC316 what are the rest of the specs? Many cheap or low power units work well for quite some time as long as nothing extraordinary is asked of them. If you built a rig that is 5yr old it is probably a <2.0ghz p4 or a64, aka low power. The 5900's don't draw a whole lot of power and im sure the motherboard is of the low end varety too. The system probably draws less than 100w at idle (idle draw divided by rated output is a good descriptor of longevity for a long period of time). This is why many dells, hps, etc have low end psu's. Not much is required, and very few are ever ran hard. 

Frick you say your 350w unit couldn't handle your x1950pro? That kind of shows the quality of the unit. I was running a 3200+ at 2.75, on a DFI, with a heavly overclocked x1800xt with no issues on a measily thermaltake 420w. Yeah that wasn't the best but that unit ran that rig flawlessly without overheating or shutting down. The psu is now retired to my girlfriends rig.

Remember guys, just because a cheapo unit ran your rig for a long time it doesn't mean its a good unit. It may work in your situation, and work well, but every rig is different. Recomending a smartpower antec to someone is a horrible idea, even if it does run for you. The only units we should be reccomending are those who live up to their sticker, their warrenty, and run flawlessly for almost anyone. Not just you.


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## JC316 (Oct 16, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> JC316 what are the rest of the specs? Many cheap or low power units work well for quite some time as long as nothing extraordinary is asked of them. If you built a rig that is 5yr old it is probably a <2.0ghz p4 or a64, aka low power. The 5900's don't draw a whole lot of power and im sure the motherboard is of the low end varety too. The system probably draws less than 100w at idle (idle draw divided by rated output is a good descriptor of longevity for a long period of time). This is why many dells, hps, etc have low end psu's. Not much is required, and very few are ever ran hard.
> 
> Frick you say your 350w unit couldn't handle your x1950pro? That kind of shows the quality of the unit. I was running a 3200+ at 2.75, on a DFI, with a heavly overclocked x1800xt with no issues on a measily thermaltake 420w. Yeah that wasn't the best but that unit ran that rig flawlessly without overheating or shutting down. The psu is now retired to my girlfriends rig.
> 
> Remember guys, just because a cheapo unit ran your rig for a long time it doesn't mean its a good unit. It may work in your situation, and work well, but every rig is different. Recomending a smartpower antec to someone is a horrible idea, even if it does run for you. The only units we should be reccomending are those who live up to their sticker, their warrenty, and run flawlessly for almost anyone. Not just you.



Athlon XP 2200 Tbred, DFI Infinity AD77, 1gb pc3200. The FX 5900 draws a bit more power than you think, they were pretty steep at the time, 250W minimum on mine. Plus the CPU draws like 1.5V I think.

It was used heavily back then too, lot of hours with Doom3.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 17, 2007)

I'd peg that rig to draw maybe 250w at full load. Hell my dualcore opty etc only pulls 450w @stock speeds. Overclocking is where the draw and heat comes into play.


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## freeboy (Oct 18, 2007)

ok, I hope this is the correct spot to post
I just was at RS looking at Multi meters to test my system that I am building and they all said " tests to 10 Amps... BUT I need to testway overthat for my gpu? I have a his1950pro
that will certainley be in the what 20-30 A range? What am I missing?
Confused.. thanks


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## KennyT772 (Oct 18, 2007)

You don't need to test amps for a video card. Do get a multi meter to check voltages though, you want to stay between 12.0 and 12.2 for the best stability. The PSU in your system specs would be fine for a x1950pro.


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## cdawall (Oct 19, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> You don't need to test amps for a video card. Do get a multi meter to check voltages though, you want to stay between 12.0 and 12.2 for the best stability. The PSU in your system specs would be fine for a x1950pro.



really is it an issue my Tt purepower 500watt leaves the 12v @ ~12.4-12.8?


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## panchoman (Oct 24, 2007)

generally kenny, i think its safe to say that you want to stay +/- .5 off the actual voltage (12,5,3.3,etc.)


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## breakfromyou (Oct 24, 2007)

Channelwell is pretty good. Just avoid the Non-PFC units.

Apevia, and everything they sell, is trash. I can't believe you can say they're good...

The only bad thing about the XClio power supplies is that they have terrible support. Good units though. Very good bang for the buck.


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## KennyT772 (Oct 24, 2007)

General range is 5% which is 11.4-12.6. Higher voltage leads to increased heat output and possibly fried components, while lower voltage leads to malfunction and unstability. 12.0-12.2 is the goal, but you just want to make sure you don't drop much below 12v especially when overclocking.


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## panchoman (Oct 24, 2007)

breakfromyou said:


> Channelwell is pretty good. Just avoid the Non-PFC units.
> 
> Apevia, and everything they sell, is trash. I can't believe you can say they're good...
> 
> The only bad thing about the XClio power supplies is that they have terrible support. Good units though. Very good bang for the buck.



i own an apevia case and its excellent. as for apevia psu's there have been loads and loads of good reviews about their psu's so thats why i put it in there, i'll recheck apevia psu's again. 

also kenny, would you like to work on this guide? i can send you the transcript and you can work on it. i really dont have time to update this guide while i have so much on the to do list for this guide. if anyone would like to work on it, please pm me  remember, this is YOUR guide, its written for you, and so its really you guys who should maintain this guide.


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## georges (Oct 30, 2007)

*can't find efficiency specs for epower zu 550*

You guys know if this is enough power for my system
<-------------- sys specs
Can't find the efficiency on my psu, and what are the signs of not enough power?
thankz


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## panchoman (Oct 30, 2007)

check your 12 volt lead, it should be between 11.5-12.5 for a healthly system. tell us what you get.


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## georges (Oct 30, 2007)

11.97 on 12v
but -5v is showing -8.5
and the turbo fan button only gives extra voltage to the fan for a few secs, once windows starts loading the fan voltage decreases back
and Vcore 1 volt is 1.45
      Vcore 2 volt is 2.11???
even though normal and BIOS set the cpu core at 1.4v


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## panchoman (Oct 30, 2007)

11.97 is very good, -5 shouldn't be -8.5. you want stay +- .5 im sure its a mistake or something, maybe wile e keakar, kenny, know more on the -5v rail.. the turbo fan only boosts the internal psu fan i believe. vcore 1 is probably your cpu, a little voltage boost is okay on amd platforms, and vcore 2, im going to guess thats your memory voltage.


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## keakar (Oct 31, 2007)

georges said:


> 11.97 on 12v
> but -5v is showing -8.5
> and the turbo fan button only gives extra voltage to the fan for a few secs, once windows starts loading the fan voltage decreases back
> and Vcore 1 volt is 1.45
> ...



the turbo fan button just bypasses the voltage regulator on the psu fan so it gets full 12v power.
it has no other function but to give max cooling for heavy power consumption usage.

the 12v to the fan should stay on as long as the button is on so im not sure why it is only running momentarily unless something is not right somewhere with the psu.

you said the "-5v is showing -8.5" where are you reading this voltage from?


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## KennyT772 (Oct 31, 2007)

Apevia - Shite psu's. 

Plastic casings do nothing for EMI/EFI absorption. Usually grossly underpowered, poor quality. 

The demise of HardOCP's 500w Apevia ATX-AS500W-BL







Geroges what are you using to display these voltages?


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## freeboy (Oct 31, 2007)

fyi, I found all my volts way off in all the places where they where read or estimated by software.. the multi meter showed really accurate for me.. not sure how to test the component power.. on the board, but you can easily plug into the main power with a multi, just know what you are doing or you will end up trying to melt yours like I tried to LOL


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## georges (Oct 31, 2007)

*wow u guys rock.... any of u this good with taxes??*

ok.. the Apevia did not come with the psu, its a epower zu 550w
the -8.5 is -.85 i think... vcore 2 you are right, my mem was boosted to to 2.1v from 1.8v in bios because they are crucials. i used bios for some readings, but that can't be accurate because the only computer that will consider BIOS a load are about 20 yrs old, so i used speedfan while inside windows, and Easytune5. And the turbo fan gives extra juice to 2 sets of 12v wires that say fan and only contain a yellow 12v, and black grnd going to a four pin MOLEX or 3 point fan controllers. Before windows loads, u can press the button and see the LEDs on the fans and the rpm rev up, and slow as u press or release the button. But once there is a load u press all u want, but they don't receive any extra juice. 
i am running this system
<--------------------  off that psu.

I reformatted, and added another dvd/rw and now Windows will not load until the blue bar has skipped on the screen 12times.  just wondering the efficiency of this thing cause if it's less than 500 w then i think i need a PSU.


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## panchoman (Oct 31, 2007)

what exactly do mean about efficency? like the max wattage, or actual efficency percentage?


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## georges (Oct 31, 2007)

the wattage that continously flows from that PSU... i thought that's what they meant by efficiency when they listed them in PSU specs.... but i couldn't find the efficiency specs for this model... and i don't know the telltale signs of too little wattage going through the system. I just can't seem to fix the load in times for windows... and i ahve formatted, changed out drives, drivers, changed from RAID 0 to independent drives same thing. and it just happened when i added another optical drive.  i don't want to load in all my progs and games and have to erase it again... right now that's about the highest load on my comp is loading windows and it's reallllly slow. the wattage calculators are telling me between 500-550.


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## panchoman (Oct 31, 2007)

psu efficency is how much of the power that it draws from your wall outlet that it can convert into usable power for your system. the wattage that it supplies should be 550w if the label is correct, 

look up the 12v lead from the psu and let me what it is, thats how we'll able be able to tell if your psu is really close to the wattage limit, etc.


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## georges (Nov 1, 2007)

hey.. 11.92 on the 12v line


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## panchoman (Nov 1, 2007)

thats normal, you want to stay between 11.5-12.5. though under 11.8, no me gusta lol. your psu has sufficent power to serve your systems. the rest of the leads are normal right?


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## patton45 (Nov 1, 2007)

is there a program to monitor the total draw from the power supply ie what the cpu mobo and gpu are using. i have speed fan but i am not trusting the draws im seeing cause there toatly different from what my bios says   plus i am no longer able to load speed fan it freezes my cpu lol


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## keakar (Nov 1, 2007)

patton45 said:


> is there a program to monitor the total draw from the power supply ie what the cpu mobo and gpu are using. i have speed fan but i am not trusting the draws im seeing cause there toatly different from what my bios says   plus i am no longer able to load speed fan it freezes my cpu lol



most times your motherboard maker has its own hardware monitor program you can download from their site. i find they are usually the most accurate monitor programs.


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## patton45 (Nov 1, 2007)

ya they just dont offer the total draw figures on them im trying to find the total psu draw espically on some of my dell psuthe only thins most monitoring tools offer is the 12v 5v rails cpu and other such things


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## KennyT772 (Nov 1, 2007)

keakar said:


> most times your motherboard maker has its own hardware monitor program you can download from their site. i find they are usually the most accurate monitor programs.



Motherboard sensors are usually not accurate when compared to a digital multimeter. That is the true measuring stick.

ATX12V spec states the regulation for +12v is +/- 5% or .6V 11.4-12.6 is within spec. 
Personally I like to stay above 11.9 and below 12.4. Overvolting is the lesser of the two evils as the power is generally a little dirtier than pure perfect 12.0 (dirty power = noise or small consistant or random changes in voltage). Undervolting is will create more problems as suddenly the device has less power available, creating instability. 
HardOCP.com has a good write up about power and various effects each aspect has on your hardware.


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## patton45 (Nov 1, 2007)

ok so ive checked my 500 watt neo he on two dfi mobos same results  3.2v 4.75v 11.83v 4.89v so somehow i have totally jacked up this psu must have overloaded it.  so anyhow its to the rma bin (so much stuff to rma)  i have always loved antec im not sure if im at fault or a bad unit im thinkin of pc p&c like the quad sli sliencer..  any other suggestions nhow are the new ultras or ocz

SO MUCH FOR 80+% efficency certified


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## Wile E (Nov 1, 2007)

patton45 said:


> ok so ive checked my 500 watt neo he on two dfi mobos same results  3.2v 4.75v 11.83v 4.89v so somehow i have totally jacked up this psu must have overloaded it.  so anyhow its to the rma bin (so much stuff to rma)  i have always loved antec im not sure if im at fault or a bad unit im thinkin of pc p&c like the quad sli sliencer..  any other suggestions nhow are the new ultras or ocz
> 
> SO MUCH FOR 80+% efficency certified


My psu reads 11.6v in software, but reads 12.0-12.1 with the multi-meter, I also have a DFI mobo. I think you need to check with a multi-meter.


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## keakar (Nov 1, 2007)

Wile E said:


> My psu reads 11.6v in software, but reads 12.0-12.1 with the multi-meter, I also have a DFI mobo. I think you need to check with a multi-meter.



i agree with Wile E, if you are looking to "check" voltages then it must be done with a multi meter to get accurate readings. the software monitor readings are done by the system and going through the board, they often experience voltage drops of as much as 10% or more when showing these readings so you must understand there is a fudge factor in there, they dont show the true accurate output of the psu just a close representation of it.

earlier you asked for a program to "monitor" them so that is why i recommended the mobo site hardware monitor. monitors are for monitoring, keeping an eye on things in case of "changes" that might happen, they are usually close to being accurate but not enough to use for diagnosing problems. only look at them as rough estimates not as accurate voltage readings.

also keep in mind a weak psu will experience voltage drop under load so it is important to take readings while under loaded conditions (the psu not you lol) if you suspect a weak psu.


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## KennyT772 (Nov 1, 2007)

Keakar not all psu's undervolt during stressing. Some keep the same voltage but the power becomes dirty (lots of ripple), and some overvolt. 

Also, why not put the links in your sig into just linked text. Heres the code

```
[url=http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=42853]Guide to proper case airflow design[/url]
[url=http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=41238]Guide To Cleaning The Dust From Your PC[/url]
[url=http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=40319]Guide to building a computer desk for under $50[/url]
[url=http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=30165]Guide to computer assembly and troubleshooting[/url]
```


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## keakar (Nov 1, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> Keakar not all psu's undervolt during stressing. Some keep the same voltage but the power becomes dirty (lots of ripple), and some overvolt.



if you look again you will see i said a "weak" psu will undervolt during stressing not a normal one.


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## KennyT772 (Nov 1, 2007)

Again that is not always the case. All units perform differently man. Some units loose voltage, others do the opposite. Either way the rarest is that the unit will produce right around 12v, but with large amounts of ripple. Ripple is the one thing that always increases with load.


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## panchoman (Nov 1, 2007)

keakar said:


> most times your motherboard maker has its own hardware monitor program you can download from their site. i find they are usually the most accurate monitor programs.



ditto. i love the biostar utilities


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## panchoman (Nov 1, 2007)

hey keakar, kenny and wile e, got a psu question for all you psu guys.
have owned 2 psus so far, antec smartpower 550, one thing i noticed was that it stored enough power within it to power my system for about 5 seconds, like my cpu fan could do atleast maybe 100 rotations with the power stored in it. now that POS fried my hdd, got it rmaed, antec discontinued it long back and gave me a neo he 550 with pfc. now this thing doesn't store any voltage, system wont get any power from it. the only big difference between the 2 psu's was that the neohe has active pfc and the the smart power did not have any pfc. would i be right in concluding that active pfc is the cause of this?


----------



## georges (Nov 2, 2007)

*i think something is up*

what's up guys.... the saga continues...
while multitasking, my vcore A which i presume is the CPU which is supposed to be at 1.4 is hopping between 1.45 and 1.51, on top of that the 12v is going from 11.97 to 11.79, is this s a prob??


----------



## patton45 (Nov 2, 2007)

ok so ive used a volt meter and im almost the same exact reading as my mobos tell me.  and i know my volt meter is good so im ordering a new psu and rma the current one. cpu-id is tellin my the core is  movin by .05 which is more movement than i normally see i mean a few thousandth of a volt is one thing but 5 hundreths is that normal for a core?


----------



## panchoman (Nov 2, 2007)

11.79 is a little low, but still livable, you're fine till 11.5. its going to hope a little as cool n quiet kicks out and your cpu goes under load and draws more power.


----------



## panchoman (Nov 2, 2007)

patton45 said:


> ok so ive used a volt meter and im almost the same exact reading as my mobos tell me.  and i know my volt meter is good so im ordering a new psu and rma the current one. cpu-id is tellin my the core is  movin by .05 which is more movement than i normally see i mean a few thousandth of a volt is one thing but 5 hundreths is that normal for a core?



well its going to draw more power when its under load and especcially cool and quiet kicking in and out causes a big jump in voltages. its normal i think. what are your voltages?


----------



## patton45 (Nov 2, 2007)

cool and quite lol do you guys actually use that? i dont i never do.  my k8v se delux has a turbo option and it oc the proc automaticaly but its the only comp i use it on.  my volts on this psu are 3.21  4.76  11.84  4.85

at least they are constant i have the pc under 100% load for 1 hour and am seeing more stable volts still low psu volts i think the thing is just worn from overloading it for a few years its 2 years old and its kept the proc over clocked with sli 7900gtx ram and ht oc too then once i put the 8800 on it seemed to really strain  ive since swaped back to single 7900gtx the system is stable but it goes unstable as soon as i go to8800 or sli


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## panchoman (Nov 2, 2007)

i never used it and dont plan to, my cpu's always at 100% oced at ~2900 50% single core fah client 50% gpu client.


----------



## patton45 (Nov 2, 2007)

do you game much or just f@h 
i want to set up a gpu client but i am still hoping for 2900 or 8800 support


----------



## panchoman (Nov 2, 2007)

8800 support, not going to happen. 2xxx series? next gpu client that comes out is going to support the hd2k series. im a light gamer, get around to playing maybe 1 round of age of empires a week. do some oblivion and stuff over the summer though.


----------



## georges (Nov 7, 2007)

*thanks for the help*

thanks for the help, i called e-power and when i gave em the specs for my system, he actually recommended a 650-700w power supply.  And the turbo fan switch is supposed to increase th voltage to the 2 fan wires that connect to the case fans.  the fact that the switch was not responding meant either the PSU was faulty or the load on it was too much for it to operate normally. Anyway, they asked Newegg to refund it free of charge. I am getting the 700 tonight i will let u know... thanks for the all the help.


----------



## panchoman (Nov 7, 2007)

getting another e-ower georges?


----------



## toxicity1234 (Dec 4, 2007)

wow this is an amazing write up. thx for the information


----------



## intel igent (Dec 5, 2007)

any PSU's out currently that have adj pots like my trusty ol' OCZ powerstream?

thnx


----------



## Namslas90 (Dec 5, 2007)

intel igent said:


> any PSU's out currently that have adj pots like my trusty ol' OCZ powerstream?
> 
> thnx



Maplin , the makers of the I-Cute PSU claim to have one, but I can't find it on their site.


----------



## intel igent (Dec 5, 2007)

Namslas90 said:


> Maplin , the makers of the I-Cute PSU claim to have one, but I can't find it on their site.



ive looked for a bit havent seen 1 as of yet.

any1 else have ideas?

thnx


----------



## panchoman (Dec 5, 2007)

huh?!?! adj pots?!?!

whoa... an update to this guide is LONG OVERDUE, i'll try and finish it up over christmas break.. would anyone like to help me with the guide at all?


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## intel igent (Dec 5, 2007)

panchoman said:


> huh?!?! adj pots?!?!
> 
> whoa... an update to this guide is LONG OVERDUE, i'll try and finish it up over christmas break.. would anyone like to help me with the guide at all?



yep adj "pots" (the non-smoking kind) like the ones used by OCZ on the old "powerstream" series of psu's, they do work. trust me 

id help but i just dont have the time to devote to it.


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## Wile E (Dec 6, 2007)

panchoman said:


> huh?!?! adj pots?!?!
> 
> whoa... an update to this guide is LONG OVERDUE, i'll try and finish it up over christmas break.. would anyone like to help me with the guide at all?


As in Adjustable Potentiometers. I never had a psu with them, but I'm guessing they're used to fine-tune voltages?


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## intel igent (Dec 6, 2007)

Wile E said:


> As in Adjustable Potentiometers. I never had a psu with them, but I'm guessing they're used to fine-tune voltages?



thnx for being more specific and yes you are correct


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## snuif09 (Dec 25, 2007)

ty for the list i dont know sh*t about psu's


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## panchoman (Dec 25, 2007)

okay guys, i think im actually gonna get around to updating the guide now, hopefully in the next few days 

To do list: 
update oem's, color coding
fix some coding
finish the first part of the guide


----------



## panchoman (Dec 26, 2007)

okay, i added a paragraph on psu labels in part II under wattage and amps. hey, does anyone here have some good knowledge on psu oem's, im wondering if youngyear and andyson are good oem's are not.. google 1337 isn't helping  gotta redo the oem list and stuff =/


----------



## RandomSunchips (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks for the guide! I was unsure about the Ultra PSU that I bought secondhand. I think I'll sell it somehow and get a better one.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 19, 2008)

no MGE company on your list?

http://www.google.com/products?hl=e...icial&hs=64g&q=MGE+power+supply&um=1&ie=UTF-8


as for who makes them i believe it may (unluckily) be the same as powmax because they have powmax fans etc in them ( i have an old 400watt that died from them, this was years ago though so it could have changed)


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## ChillyMyst (Jan 20, 2008)

i would like to point out that not all Super Flower psu's are bad, i have a TTGI 550watt unit thats KILLER(14cm fan) rock solid 11.97 on the 12v rails(can ajust it easly, but no need its within spec)  had 34amps on the 12v rail and can coap with anything i throw at it.

you also have a color tag that needs fixed on one of the OEM names


----------



## Spectre (Jan 22, 2008)

panchoman said:


> okay, i added a paragraph on psu labels in part II under wattage and amps. hey, does anyone here have some good knowledge on psu oem's, im wondering if youngyear and andyson are good oem's are not.. google 1337 isn't helping  gotta redo the oem list and stuff =/



Andyson good.

Youngyear crap.

-Paul Johnson


----------



## cdawall (Jan 23, 2008)

ChillyMyst said:


> i would like to point out that not all Super Flower psu's are bad, i have a TTGI 550watt unit thats KILLER(14cm fan) rock solid 11.97 on the 12v rails(can ajust it easly, but no need its within spec)  had 34amps on the 12v rail and can coap with anything i throw at it.
> 
> you also have a color tag that needs fixed on one of the OEM names



my cheaper 500watt Tt purepower runs 12.4+v solid on both of the 12v rails


----------



## panchoman (Jan 24, 2008)

sorry guys, i've got a lot going on in my life... been living at the hospital for like 2 weeks straight, and finally got to stop doing that yesterday.. and now im trying to catch with the rest of my life and all kinds of stuff. this guide is getting more and more outdated and my list of to do stuff for this guide keeps growing and no one cares to help me out so yeah.. sorry


----------



## Nitro-Max (Feb 1, 2008)

Amps are most important with a psu the more the better i used to operate amature radio and used to use some powerfull psu,s for them its the same thing really  with a pc if i wanted to throw out a 4watt signal on my radio all id need is a 3 to 5 amp power supply the more wattage i throw out the more amps my radio needs to draw so look at your pc parts see what wattage they are rated at and that gives you a rough idea on how many amps it will draw to operate properly 4 watts roughly 3 amps but it is better to over compensate so allow 5.


----------



## ghot (Mar 17, 2008)

simple answer to all PSU questions......get a Seasonic based PSU...period...personnally I like the PC Power & Cooling ones....the less moving parts in a PSU the better..this includes pots, modular connectors etc.  They cost more for a reason....they are better.

You dont need wattage calculators etc....just get a 750W 80% or higher effciency PSU.
If your going to go crazy with components get a 1000W or a 1200W....

Computers are like houses...they only as good as the foundation....in this case the PSU!
I've been in Electronics for 30years....more is better...skimp on anything else...do NOT skimp on your PSU.  Nowadays even 750W is verging on too little.  Anything under that is gonna come back to haunt you I promise.

Credentials: I've worked on and with PSU's that have capacitors that can only be lifted by a crane.  You ever seen a 2000 amp breaker...I have.

Great guide btw....

The only other consideration is the actual number and type of connectors....plan ahead...you know your going to add more fans more vid cards more HD's etc., a PSU that suffices today  will kill a computer when you start adding components.

I know money is always an issue...but save money on ANY component EXCEPT the PSU.


----------



## Wile E (Mar 18, 2008)

ghot said:


> simple answer to all PSU questions......get a Seasonic based PSU...period...personnally I like the PC Power & Cooling ones....the less moving parts in a PSU the better..this includes pots, modular connectors etc.  They cost more for a reason....they are better.
> 
> You dont need wattage calculators etc....just get a 750W 80% or higher effciency PSU.
> If your going to go crazy with components get a 1000W or a 1200W....
> ...


750W is overkill for most people. (Not that overkill is a bad thing). My rig runs on a Corsair (Seasonic made) 620W, just fine, and even with ridiculous OCing going on. But generally, I say get the best psu you can afford, and always one made from a reputable OEM. I think I'm in the market for a 1kw psu anyway, just so I can run stupid oced dual video cards, if need be.


----------



## JrRacinFan (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey pancho, you will need to add Xigmatek to your list. There 650w psu is made by channelwell if it helps.

EDIT: And actually now that I look all there PSU's are made by Channelwell.


----------



## panchoman (Apr 22, 2008)

got the ul number?


----------



## JrRacinFan (Apr 22, 2008)

e161451.


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## panchoman (Apr 22, 2008)

okay thanks.


----------



## JrRacinFan (Apr 22, 2008)

Yeah, anytime man.


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## panchoman (Apr 22, 2008)

jr, i dont supposs you could update it here: 

http://reference.techpowerup.com/Psu_Guide

its the raw version of the psu guide from this thread.. i still need to covert it to wiki format.. which i'll do very soon..


----------



## Frangorn (Apr 26, 2008)

Hi there, what do you know about a PSU "*Eagle Tech Panther Power Xseries GM670SC*".

Thanks!

EDIT:

I bought this PSU for my PC, in this moment I have a temporary Video Card (GeForce 7300 LE) but in a couple of weeks I'll receive the one I want (XFX PVT88PYDF4 GeForce 8800GT 512MB GDDR3), my question is if this PSU will be enought for this PC and by the way, if this is a good PSU.

Thanks again.

P.S:I have 4x1GB RAM, but I think because the Win XP I see only 3 in XP :S


----------



## Wile E (Apr 27, 2008)

Frangorn said:


> Hi there, what do you know about a PSU "*Eagle Tech Panther Power Xseries GM670SC*".
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


Got a link to it?


----------



## Namslas90 (Apr 27, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Got a link to it?



Here ya go!;

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story3&reid=67

(At least I think thats the same one.  Deff enough info for me to make a decision though).


----------



## Wile E (Apr 27, 2008)

Yikes!!!! Get rid of that psu Frangorn. It didn't even live thru testing.


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## JrRacinFan (Apr 27, 2008)

Frangorn, please do yourself and your rig a favor, please get a new psu. You know DaedulusHaelios has one for sale I beleive for $65.


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm wondering if my current PSU is cut out for the job:

http://www.nox-xtreme.com/uranoseries600w.htm

Take a look @ these charts: they are of only a few minutes but i think the illustrate what i mean.
















Is it OK for it to be this off the mark?


----------



## JrRacinFan (Apr 27, 2008)

I've never heard of that brand HTC. Any possibility you can take a peak at the label for me and dig up its UL number:

For example:


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

JrRacinFan said:


> I've never heard of that brand HTC. Any possibility you can take a peak at the label for me and dig up its UL number:
> 
> For example:



What does "UL" stand for?

Also: isn't a similar thing (to the pic) in the page link i provided?


----------



## Nitro-Max (Apr 27, 2008)

Hiper should be on the top list of psu's Its not very well known outside the uk as its a British company but is very highly rated against any of the top psu's its probably the best we make. they have some quality products.
MInes given me no problems hiper 880watt type-m series 85% efficiency very nice package doesnt even get warm to the touch.

http://www.hipergroup.com/English/


----------



## Namslas90 (Apr 27, 2008)

HTC said:


> What does "UL" stand for?



it means, "Listed by Underwriters Laboratory, an independent laboratory that tests equipment to determine whether it meets certain safety standards when properly used."

(That it shouldn't "blow-up" or burn your house down when pluged in and used in a normal fashion - unmodified of course).


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

Namslas90 said:


> it means, "Listed by Underwriters Laboratory, an independent laboratory that tests equipment to determine whether it meets certain safety standards when properly used."
> 
> (That it shouldn't "blow-up" or burn your house down when pluged in and used in a normal fashion - unmodified of course).



OK: thanks, dude!

Can anyone give me an example of 1 such "UL" in a PSU. I can't find that term anywhere in my PSU


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## Namslas90 (Apr 27, 2008)

HTC said:


> Can anyone give me an example of 1 such "UL" in a PSU. I can't find that term anywhere in my PSU



UL listing is not manditory, manufacturers must pay to have their products tested and they must "PASS" in order to display the "UL" logo.   Most higher end - better quality PSU's are UL listed.  I know my Enermax PSU has a seperate UL sticker on it , but its not listed on the data (plate) sticker.

EDIT: The label (mark) may be in a different format - see this link;

http://www.ul.com/marks_labels/mark/index.html


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## Frangorn (Apr 27, 2008)

First at all, sorry for the delay and very much thanks for the answers.
Problem here, is that I leave in Perú, here there is not too much brands, in fact this in the only I founded with more than 500w (if someone want to make business just tell me ).
Is not my idea OC or moding my PC, is just for work and play some games if this information help.
Yes, the link shows in the first link looks like my PSU, in this moment I can't open the case to take a picture, but I have an aditional data, in the box there are two options "R" and "RA", the mine is "R".

Here there is a picture of the Intel(R) Desktop Utilities:





Anyway, I posted here to learn and make the right things, I have two options, the best one is to buy something in Amazon or the place you can advice (this is too expensive for me, because the delivery to my country and is a problem too, not always can deliver to Perú) and the other one, is buy another one here, in that case, think have to search deeply for some of the brands mentioned in this post, I gess.

Bests

EDIT: Anyway, I'll apreciate some advices or some other information that could help to determinate the PSU quality, os maybe some test or some way to test it or something that helps to me to take the decision to change it and store u$s 100 in the "stupid things room"


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## Namslas90 (Apr 27, 2008)

@ Franghorn;  Yeah you are limited as to whats available in your area.  There should be suppliers nearby though (Brazil/Buenos Aires etc).  Your biggest problem is the additional cost from "Import Taxes".

Try getting in touch with this TPU member (He should be able to help locating suppliers).

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/member.php?u=38647


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

Namslas90 said:


> UL listing is not manditory, manufacturers must pay to have their products tested and they must "PASS" in order to display the "UL" logo.   Most higher end - better quality PSU's are UL listed.  I know my Enermax PSU has a seperate UL sticker on it , but its not listed on the data (plate) sticker.
> 
> EDIT: The label (mark) may be in a different format - see this link;
> 
> http://www.ul.com/marks_labels/mark/index.html



Mine has this on it:






It's on that "UL" page you provided.


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## Frangorn (Apr 27, 2008)

Namslas90 said:


> Here ya go!;
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story3&reid=67
> 
> (At least I think thats the same one.  Deff enough info for me to make a decision though).



At least read to this guy is really funny: "The Eagle Tech Skyhawk Panther Cheetah Walrus Marmot Tiger Lion Power in all its glory" jua jua, my bad adquisition leads me to some smile 

Thanks a lot Namslas90, I appreciate.


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## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

example of the ul number. the ul (the whole long thing above ) is like a safety organization and most everything is certified by them. you can usually find a number under the ul number and use that number to find out who it is registered to, this is how you find out the oem of a psu brand, you trace the ul number to find out which oem registered the particular psu. 

btw JR: 

looks like E561451 to me.. but it didn't pull up anything on the ul database. but E161451 is channelwell's ul number. could be a typo or i cant read it right lol.


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## JrRacinFan (Apr 27, 2008)

It is e161451.


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## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

so cwt it is.


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## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

Mine has "R33529" about 2 inches to the left of that logo i posted earlier.

What does this mean?


----------



## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

HTC said:


> Mine has "R33529" about 2 inches to the left of that logo i posted earlier.
> 
> What does this mean?



not a UL number, i can tell you that.. as they start with E 

google doesn't really help..


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

panchoman said:


> not a UL number, i can tell you that.. as they start with E
> 
> google doesn't really help..
> 
> ...


----------



## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

so its the BSMI mark.. 



> Most products sold in Taiwan must be approved in accordance with the regulations as set forth by the BSMI (Bureau of Standards, Metrology and Inspection)


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

panchoman said:


> so its the BSMI mark..



Is this a good PSU, then?

Please check post #281: should i keep this PSU or change it?


----------



## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

i have no clue..perhaps you might want to read here: http://www.hard-h2o.com/review/fuentes/nox-urano-600.html ... i've never heard of it before..


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

panchoman said:


> i have no clue.. i'll see if i can find something on that psu... i've never heard of it before..



I'm just worried because what is and what's supposed to be are a bit too different


----------



## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

im having some trouble finding info on that psu.. you might be better off with another psu if you're unsure about your current one..


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

panchoman said:


> im having some trouble finding info on that psu.. you might be better off with another psu if you're unsure about your current one..



Their site:

http://www.nox-xtreme.com/uranoseries600w.htm


----------



## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

really doesn't help -_- cant even tell you how much actual power you'll get outta the psu...


----------



## HTC (Apr 27, 2008)

panchoman said:


> really doesn't help -_- cant even tell you how much actual power you'll get outta the psu...



Craptastik 

In any case, thank you for trying, dude!


----------



## panchoman (Apr 27, 2008)

no probs, glad to help man.


----------



## intel igent (Jun 6, 2008)

this thread cant die! 

i just came across this myself and i'm not shure if it's been added already (if it isn't add it to your first post) but people looking at buying PSU's may find this helpfull 

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/370


----------



## l3fty (Aug 2, 2008)

Just thought I'd add to your database. I just got a Cooler Master eXtreme power 500w ul# e141400 and it's made by SEVENTEAM ELECTRONICS CO LTD. Thanks for all the info. =) Very helpfull.


----------



## panchoman (Sep 13, 2008)

i promise guys, i'll have this thread renewed and resurrected soon, just gotta find the time to! DOH! 

anyway, heres what im planning: 

-bulk of the guide will stay here
-the bulk of the guide will be finished of course, 
-the brand/oem list will be moved to the tpu wiki, where users may edit it with valuable information, as i cant really keep up with it.


----------



## tawce7 (Sep 22, 2008)

hello all, i need some info from you, is it possible to safe operating some  pc desktop with double PSU ???, 1 PSU for motherboard, HDD, procie, DVD rom and other PSU for the VGA only (ATI 4870 X2). and each of PSU have 500 watt



i am sorry for my bad grammar and spelling , i am indonesian


----------



## panchoman (Sep 22, 2008)

tawce7 said:


> hello all, i need some info from you, is it possible to safe operating some  pc desktop with double PSU ???, 1 PSU for motherboard, HDD, procie, DVD rom and other PSU for the VGA only (ATI 4870 X2). and each of PSU have 500 watt
> 
> 
> 
> i am sorry for my bad grammar and spelling , i am indonesian



you can do it, but you'll need a relay switch between the psu's, so that they power on/off in a coordinated fashion.. while most people dont recommend it, you can do it with no problems.


----------



## thoughtdisorder (Sep 22, 2008)

tawce7 said:


> hello all, i need some info from you, is it possible to safe operating some  pc desktop with double PSU ???, 1 PSU for motherboard, HDD, procie, DVD rom and other PSU for the VGA only (ATI 4870 X2). and each of PSU have 500 watt
> 
> 
> 
> i am sorry for my bad grammar and spelling , i am indonesian



^Good advice from Pancho, he's the PSU guru around here. 

No need to apologize for your grammar and spelling, I can't speak Indonesian at all!

Welcome to TPU..


----------



## JrRacinFan (Sep 23, 2008)

panchoman said:


> you can do it, but you'll need a relay switch between the psu's, so that they power on/off in a coordinated fashion.. while most people dont recommend it, you can do it with no problems.



Just adding information pancho:

It is best to use a relay but with a simple easy to find adapter it can be done without. Although I truly do not recommend or suggest it! 

Check out the below link:

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5637/cpa-167/Lian-Li_Dual_Power_Supply_Adapter_Cable.html

As you can see, it connects pin 15 from secondary to main psu and the same can be said for pin 16 (Green and Black/Pwr On and Ground).


----------



## Wile E (Sep 23, 2008)

tawce7 said:


> hello all, i need some info from you, is it possible to safe operating some  pc desktop with double PSU ???, 1 PSU for motherboard, HDD, procie, DVD rom and other PSU for the VGA only (ATI 4870 X2). and each of PSU have 500 watt
> 
> 
> 
> i am sorry for my bad grammar and spelling , i am indonesian



It all depends on the power supplies themselves. Some computer power supplies can be damaged if you do not put a load on the 3.3V and 5V rails. Running just the graphics cards only loads the 12V rails, and can damage some PSU's. You have to do research to find out if the PSU you are going to use for only the gfx cards is able to run only the 12V rails without damage.

If you find a power supply that's safe to use for 12v use only, the adapter that JrRacingFan showed is all you will need to do it.


----------



## suraswami (Sep 23, 2008)

Can someone say who makes this PSU for OCZ please

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...IGNEFL092308-_-PowerSupplies-_-L0B-_-17341010


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## Wile E (Sep 24, 2008)

Well, the UL number is of no use, it just comes back as OCZ. But, from what I gather, it's either FSP or Epsilon, leaning toward Epsilon. I'd try for something else if possible.


----------



## burebista (Sep 24, 2008)

FSP Epsilon.


----------



## suraswami (Sep 24, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Well, the UL number is of no use, it just comes back as OCZ. But, from what I gather, it's either FSP or Epsilon, leaning toward Epsilon. I'd try for something else if possible.



Please look at my post here 
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72077

and let me know who makes them.


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## p_o_s_pc (Sep 25, 2008)

i didn't see Sigma on the list are they any good?

EDIT: after a few min. with google i would that the Sigma Shark i was looking at is made by Andyson and is also owned by Raidmax so i think i am going to stay away


----------



## drdaver (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks for the awesome guide!!


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## panchoman (Oct 21, 2008)

xigamtek- E161451 built by CWT


----------



## Marzipan (Nov 13, 2008)

Anybody know about this PSU?
specs, connectors, personal exp, etc?


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## JrRacinFan (Nov 13, 2008)

Very interesting if you take a look at this link you will see model "*KY-500ATX*" the 12v rail is rated 13v 55a MAX. Sun Pro as the OEM. Very interesting.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Nov 13, 2008)

please tell me that the Silverstone Zeus 650w was a good choice...


----------



## JrRacinFan (Nov 13, 2008)

Alot better than a Hiper.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Nov 13, 2008)

JrRacinFan said:


> Alot better than a Hiper.



well thats good to know. I hope it doesn't shit it's self. Better then Hyper(hiper) and Xclio?

EDIT: Panchoman this link may help with your list 
http://www.10stripe.com/articles/who-made-your-power-supply.php


----------



## Miramo (Dec 1, 2008)

Is buying a used PSU a good idea?
Could anyone tell me which of these is better? Thermaltake Toughpower 750W or OCZ EliteXStream	800W?


----------



## Wile E (Dec 1, 2008)

Miramo said:


> Is buying a used PSU a good idea?
> Could anyone tell me which of these is better? Thermaltake Toughpower 750W or OCZ EliteXStream	800W?



I'd take the Toughpower, personally.

And no, buying a used PSU is not a bad idea, as long as it's still under warranty, or bought from a trusted source.


----------



## BloodTotal (Dec 9, 2008)

this corsair is chainwell

where as the guide says its seasonic

look at the bottom of the page figure 5

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/505


----------



## Wile E (Dec 9, 2008)

BloodTotal said:


> this corsair is chainwell
> 
> where as the guide says its seasonic
> 
> ...



Depends on which psu you buy from them. The HX series, for example, are Seasonic. The TX are CWT.


----------



## BloodTotal (Dec 9, 2008)

Pancho should put that in the guide


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

I put everything to it's highest(made the highest end system) on the watt calculator.

Total Watts: 7060w,lol


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

I now built a rig on there that uses a total of 8839w.

Which includes a Core i7 965 OCed to 9.9Ghz. and a Quad socket mobo,lol.


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

I not got it up to 8314557w,lol

Edit: Now up to 16735291w


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 14, 2008)

would someone like to tell me if this would power a 8800GT and a 5kBE for folding 24/7
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256032


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> would someone like to tell me if this would power a 8800GT and a 5kBE for folding 24/7
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256032



Depends on the rest of the system.


----------



## crazy pyro (Dec 14, 2008)

You could have looked at his syspecs CDDude.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 14, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Depends on the rest of the system.



I already got my answer but you can tell me anyways specs would be
5kBE@3ghz
Gigabyte GA-m61p-S3 (Nfoce 430)
Thermaltake V1 CPU HSF
1gb OCZ reapers @~850 CL4 2.15v(killed one stick) 
2 120mm fans 2 80mm fans
8800GT @650/1800/900(C/S/M) @1.2v 
60gb IDE HDD IDE DVD-RW drive
I think thats it


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

crazy pyro said:


> You could have looked at his syspecs CDDude.



He didn't specify which rig it was or if it was even one of the ones in his system specs.


----------



## crazy pyro (Dec 14, 2008)

Now you're being pedantic.


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

crazy pyro said:


> Now you're being pedantic.



I disagree.

He could of been talking about one not even built yet.


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> I already got my answer but you can tell me anyways specs would be
> 5kBE@3ghz
> Gigabyte GA-m61p-S3 (Nfoce 430)
> Thermaltake V1 CPU HSF
> ...



400w should power it fine.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 14, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> He could of been talking about one not even built yet.



just so you know it would be my 2nd rig in my specs but with a 8800GT


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> just so you know it would be my 2nd rig in my specs but with a 8800GT



Ya, i found that out when you posted the full specs.

You should be fine, the system i have pulls less then 400w, according to the PSU watt calculator.(guess my 600w is overkill)

So it should work fine with your rig.


----------



## cdawall (Dec 14, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Ya, i found that out when you posted the full specs.
> 
> You should be fine, the system i have pulls less then 400w, according to the PSU watt calculator.(guess my 600w is overkill)
> 
> So it should work fine with your rig.



mine pulls 456w with an oc


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

cdawall said:


> mine pulls 456w with an oc



I don't OC, plus i have a 8600 GTS, so that keeps my wattage way down.


----------



## cdawall (Dec 14, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> I don't OC, plus i have a 8600 GTS, so that keeps my wattage way down.



i was surprised mine pulled that much TBH must be the dual pump thing i got going


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 14, 2008)

cdawall said:


> i was surprised mine pulled that much TBH must be the dual pump thing i got going



Ya, looks like you have loads of cooling going on.

And the OC plays a pretty big factor.


----------



## cdawall (Dec 14, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Ya, looks like you have loads of cooling going on.
> 
> And the OC plays a pretty big factor.



for some reason that chip pulls quite a bit with over a 100% oc lol


----------



## Flyordie (Dec 16, 2008)

Just a friendly update...
There is another Earthwatts manufacturer... 
The EA500D is made by Delta. (500W EarthWatts)
Same all around except the 12V Rails now supply 22A each instead of the 17A each.
Just somthing to look into... I have verified it with Antec Tech Support but the woman I spoke to did not have the UL number for Delta. 
Also, the EA380W made by SeaSonic had its peak power output released-
420W Peak for 6 months...
380W Continuous @ 55C...

Fly
P.S.- I own an EA380, tested the 12V Rail to draw 348W (Shut down at 348W, due to OLP) and that was that. (29 AMPs) (14.5 per 12V Rail)
I balanced the load across both of the rails incrementally to keep the heat spread even across the unit. Test done at 26C (77-80F Room Temp) Ambient, Exhaust Temp from the unit was 32C (89-90F) @ 340W. The 340W burn-in on the 12V Rails lasted 1hr, at 58-59m the temp readings were taken. The unit was then cranked up to 345 and during transition to 350W it shut down. Final reading was 348W.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d20/Flyordie07/Rage3D/2008-11-28-11h59-Volt12.png  <--- During the last 15m of the test @ 340W Load (12V Rails only)
  The same unit is powering my current rig. ;-)  I did some changes, cable management is severely improved, LED fan has been removed and replaced with a silent 120mm and the un-used cables hidden from view.  Anway, just posted the pic for proof its powering it. ;-)


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

does anyone know who makes the Sunbeam Hush? i have been looking a tit for along time and the reviews on newegg are kinda mixed so i was hoping that someone knows the OEM


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Isn't the company Sunbeam?

You should still aim higher.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Isn't the company Sunbeam?
> 
> You should still aim higher.


no idea who makes them but i think the lowest i will go is a Antec or Silverstone but does HEC make a decent PSU? it will be powering a 5kBE and a 8600GTS for folding 24/7 and light gaming from time to time


----------



## cdawall (Dec 23, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> no idea who makes them but i think the lowest i will go is a Antec or Silverstone but does HEC make a decent PSU? it will be powering a 5kBE and a 8600GTS for folding 24/7 and light gaming from time to time



get a 410w PCP&C off newegg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703014


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

cdawall said:


> get a 410w PCP&C off newegg
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703014



I would but i have to have VARY cheap like around 20-30 that is why i am looking at the Antec basiq 350w


----------



## cdawall (Dec 23, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> I would but i have to have VARY cheap like around 20-30 that is why i am looking at the Antec basiq 350w



there is a 20% off promo code with that and its $35 AMIR


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

cdawall said:


> there is a 20% off promo code with that and its $35 AMIR



I don't mess with MIR it still would take me over budget if i was to get something like that. I would keep using my Antec Smart power 300w but i took the top off to clean it and replace the fan because it was pissing me off. I saw that there were budging caps so i want to replace is before they blow.


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Silverstone ST 400w  $50

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256032

Or this nice Thermaltake one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153023   $41


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Silverstone ST 400w  $50
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256032
> 
> Or this nice Thermaltake one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153023   $41



thanks but once again IT CAN'T BE OVER $30


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> thanks but once again IT CAN'T BE OVER $30



Oh ya lol

Linkworld: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817165037

$30

Or this one that has high reviews: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103428 (Sparkle, $28)


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

I wouldn't stress this PSU's out tho, there cheap for a reason.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Oh ya lol
> 
> Linkworld: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817165037
> 
> ...



so this Antec is a no no?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371013




CDdude55 said:


> I wouldn't stress this PSU's out tho, there cheap for a reason.



would running a 5kBE@3ghz@1.35v and a 8600GTS @700/2000(1000)C/m


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> so this Antec is a no no?
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371013
> 
> 
> ...



Thats looks good, Antec is a more reliable company then the rest of the lower end companies listed.

And the reviews look good, so i don't see why not.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Thats looks good, Antec is a more reliable company then the rest of the lower end companies listed.
> 
> And the reviews look good, so i don't see why not.



thanks


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

Just don't OC to high with the lower wattage PSU's, but i think it could handle those clocks, and if not just lower them till they get stable.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Just don't OC to high with the lower wattage PSU's, but i think it could handle those clocks, and if not just lower them till they get stable.



I am starting to consider just putting a 8600GTS or a 8800GS/9600GSO in my main rig and fold on both cards and not worry about the other rig right now then when i get more money get a better PSU for the 2nd rig. Will my Silverstone Zeus power a 8800GT and a 8600GTS or8800GS/9600GSO?


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 23, 2008)

p_o_s_pc said:


> I am starting to consider just putting a 8600GTS or a 8800GS/9600GSO in my main rig and fold on both cards and not worry about the other rig right now then when i get more money get a better PSU for the 2nd rig. Will my Silverstone Zeus power a 8800GT and a 8600GTS or8800GS/9600GSO?



Yep, 650w should be enough for those cards, as long as it has the connectors for both cards available.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 23, 2008)

CDdude55 said:


> Yep, 650w should be enough for those cards, as long as it has the connectors for both cards available.



i got 4 PCI-E connectors so no problems there.


----------



## Wile E (Dec 23, 2008)

Sparkles are FSP. Decent all around psus. Not top end, but fairly reliable.


----------



## JrRacinFan (Dec 24, 2008)

Here's a Youngyear (not horrible just a notch under FSP quality) built...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817255010

... too bad it's OoS.

I've had this exact same model for 2 years still going strong. Same one that pushed my Cellie 347 to 5Ghz, has ran an 8600GT and the 2 2600's.

EDIT: Oh also ran it as an AUX psu for my 3870 alone as a test.


----------



## Gilletter (Dec 24, 2008)

awesome read panchoman... lots of info


----------



## kysg (Dec 24, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Sparkles are FSP. Decent all around psus. Not top end, but fairly reliable.



Damn I had no idea they were rebranded FSP's,

but I will probably stick with Xigmatek


----------



## JrRacinFan (Dec 24, 2008)

kysg said:


> Damn I had no idea they were rebranded FSP's,
> 
> but I will probably stick with Xigmatek



Xigmatek's are Channellwell built.  Figured I pass that along.


----------



## kysg (Dec 24, 2008)

JrRacinFan said:


> Xigmatek's are Channellwell built.  Figured I pass that along.



Yea, I know they are Channellwell's, pretty damn good too.  Inexpensive and I think they carry lifetime warranty but I don't remember.


----------



## JrRacinFan (Dec 24, 2008)

kysg said:


> Yea, I know they are Channellwell's, pretty damn good too.  Inexpensive and I think they carry lifetime warranty but I don't remember.



Limited lifetime but they are really nice.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Dec 24, 2008)

JrRacinFan said:


> Here's a Youngyear (not horrible just a notch under FSP quality) built...
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817255010
> 
> ...



thanks but i am just going to use the 8600GTS in my main rig and buy a better PSU for the 2nd rig. Till then its going to sit in my closet


----------



## 1Kurgan1 (Dec 24, 2008)

I highly suggest this bad boy

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817159072

$119 if you don't wanna use rebates for 950W, 90A, and modular cabling. When I seen that thing my eyes lit up, like christmas came early. And I've had mine for about 2 months haven't had an issue yet, 5 egg rating from others too so good sign.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 5, 2009)

Coolmax makes some great PSUs.  I got a cheap ($60) 400w and it has been running over a year now without problems.

Enermax is excellent.  I bought 3 x 620w Liberty's almost two years ago and not a one is having problems.

Aerocool - Had a 520w, died just outside of the one-year warranty.  It did not take any other components with it.  Will never buy again.

Sparkle Power - Systemax used these several years back.  I've seen 250w, 300w, and 400w models.  None have failed after many years (three+) of use.

Athena Power - MSI puts these in their barebone kits.  They are no-frills like Sparkle but I have yet to see one fail.

Silverstone - Good overall but haven't had one for long...

Those are all the brands I can recall...


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Jan 5, 2009)

i would just like to say that my Silverstone is still running strong. looks like i finally get a PSU that is decent


----------



## JrRacinFan (Jan 5, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> i would just like to say that my Silverstone is still running strong. looks like i finally get a PSU that is decent



inm tellin yah man, it was that old case you had.


----------



## crazy pyro (Jan 5, 2009)

Did his case eat PSUs for breakfast lunch and dinner?


----------



## JrRacinFan (Jan 5, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> Did his case eat PSUs for breakfast lunch and dinner?



Pretty much. I am beleiving there was a short near his IO plate or standoffs/spacers.


----------



## Odin Eidolon (Jan 5, 2009)

you may want to add xigmatek to the good powersupply makers list, they make nice units. for powersupplies i usually check reviews at jonnyguru.com, good site and articles, the reviewer is nice too!
and i see the list lacks of lots of new models form lots of makers


----------



## JrRacinFan (Jan 5, 2009)

Odin Eidolon said:


> you may want to add xigmatek to the good powersupply makers list, they make nice units. for powersupplies i usually check reviews at johnnyguru.com, good site and articles, the reviewer is nice too!
> and i see the list lacks of lots of new models form lots of makers



Yup already aware, made by Channelwell, other companies who use that OEM are Tt, Zalman, OCZ and you guess it Corsair.


----------



## CDdude55 (Jan 5, 2009)

OCZ is awesome, very quiet and reliable.

I really want to try a Corsair PSU, people love'em.


----------



## apheX? (Jan 5, 2009)

I love the sound of the Enermax Revolution 85+ but release date is unknown


----------



## Odin Eidolon (Jan 5, 2009)

apheX? said:


> I love the sound of the Enermax Revolution 85+ but release date is unknown



they are already on sale in EU i think


----------



## crazy pyro (Jan 5, 2009)

I love my corsair PSU, the cable management inside my case is quite nice, although the fluffy bag thing it comes in is quite silly.


----------



## Flyordie (Jan 5, 2009)

Well, ima put this EA380 under a higher workload next week... and I don't intend on overclocking under this PSU... just stock on the CPU.
AMD Phenom X4 9750 125W  (got it BNIB for $112.99 with a special promo code for AMD fans.. ;-)  )
2x1GB DDR-800 Corsair XMS2
HD4850 @ 675Mhz
2x SATA HDDs (only 1 has the OS/Games, other is file storage so its off 90% of the time)
1x 120mm Fan

So ya'll think it will handle it? lol


----------



## crazy pyro (Jan 5, 2009)

Since the box for a 4850 says 450 is the minimum your PSU may get fubared, not sure though.


----------



## Flyordie (Jan 5, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> Since the box for a 4850 says 450 is the minimum your PSU may get fubared, not sure though.



Well, it runs my current rig fine..
EA380 is
330W 24/7 Max @ 60C on the 12V Rails
and when using everything that uses the 12V rail on this PC this is what the 12V rail looks like...
Thats with GPU, CPU and HDDs copying to and from...


----------



## apheX? (Jan 5, 2009)

Odin Eidolon said:


> they are already on sale in EU i think



cant find it anywhere


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Jan 5, 2009)

JrRacinFan said:


> Pretty much. I am beleiving there was a short near his IO plate or standoffs/spacers.



it was the IO plate... The case was bent up bad there that i didn't notice till i looked close. I bent everything as close to normal as i could and everything has been just fine with it


----------



## BloodTotal (Jan 5, 2009)

ocz makes verry bad power supplies, theyhave tons of ripple, google it, or better look for psi reviews on tpu


----------



## CDdude55 (Jan 6, 2009)

BloodTotal said:


> ocz makes verry bad power supplies, theyhave tons of ripple, google it, or better look for psi reviews on tpu



Have had no trouble with my OCZ Stealthxstream, its been extremely quiet and have been using it for about a year and a half.(for just straight gaming and web browsing)


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Jan 6, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> Did his case eat PSUs for breakfast lunch and dinner?



i think it was like 5 or 6 PSUs that died in about a year with that case


----------



## Odin Eidolon (Jan 6, 2009)

apheX? said:


> cant find it anywhere



avaiable from 14-1

http://www3.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24951&agid=240
http://www3.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24953&agid=240
http://www3.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24952&agid=240
http://www3.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24950&agid=240


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jan 14, 2009)

I just found this on the MSI website. Cool page.

Power Supply Calculator


----------



## kiriakost (Jan 14, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I just found this on the MSI website. Cool page.
> 
> Power Supply Calculator




It has very poor CPU and VGA listing . 

I am unable to find  P4 socket 478 and AGP cards  listed.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 14, 2009)

kiriakost said:


> It has very poor CPU and VGA listing .
> 
> I am unable to find  P4 socket 478 and AGP cards  listed.



thats because those parts are so old they are unsupported by the companies that made them


----------



## kiriakost (Jan 14, 2009)

JrRacinFan said:


> Yup already aware, made by Channelwell, other companies who use that OEM are Tt, Zalman, OCZ and you guess it Corsair.



Add HIPER too  
The HPU-4M780PE are one of those .. 


Here are a nice link about PSUs too.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html


----------



## Flyordie (Feb 2, 2009)

Ok, ditched the EA380, still works but here's the kicker... I can OC my HD4850 to 750Mhz now w/o artifact'n.  Guess that was a sign of "Im being overtaxxed! HELP ME!" Anywho replaced it with this Seasonic S12-550HT F3.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Feb 2, 2009)

do some WM and replace that CPU HSF!!! btw nice PSU


----------



## Flyordie (Feb 3, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> do some WM and replace that CPU HSF!!! btw nice PSU



but i am getting 113F @ 100% load with this @ 3.1Ghz. ;-)


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Feb 4, 2009)

Flyordie said:


> but i am getting 113F @ 100% load with this @ 3.1Ghz. ;-)



not bad temps but its just the fact your using stock


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

CM extreme 550W or gigabyte odin 585W?


----------



## JrRacinFan (Feb 12, 2009)

BradleyKZN said:


> CM extreme 550W or gigabyte odin 585W?



Either are of same build quality. BUT the GB Odin has more features. IMHO, go with what is inexpensive between the 2.

EDIT:
Speaking of which what is the budget and your locale?


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

I live in South Africa. If I had to get the Odin I would have to pay an extra R50 for the shipping of my new case, so instead of it costing R1160 it is now gonna cost me R1065. Now what other features has the Odin got?


----------



## JrRacinFan (Feb 12, 2009)

BradleyKZN said:


> Now what other features has the Odin got?



Has pretty much software monitoring and thermal detection via USB 2.0. Also I do beleive has quad rails versus the Coolermasters dual. 

EDIT:
And upon looking the GB Odin is modular. In the end, the Gigabyte Odin if you can afford the little bit extra.


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks man, unfortunately im going for a red theme in my case due to my ATI Graphics card, so that blue light coming from that PSU is gonna make things difficult. Technically I cant afford the case and PSU anyway,  so the extra 100 bucks is gonna kill me. Unfortunately I gotta buy the case and PSU because my current PSU wont power my 4870 enough and my graphics card is about a centimetre away from my HDD bays so I need a bigger case.


----------



## JrRacinFan (Feb 12, 2009)

Your welcome, but you say you will need a psu? Have you noticed any stability issues? Artifacting from video card?


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

Na, no artifacting, alot of my games are freezing for a millisecond or so, and its only on games that I have maxed out the graphics for with AA and AF. I was told its a classic PSU problem by Erocker, who then directed me to this thread. If you look at the PSU in my specs, you probably wont even recognize the name and its borderline for my card anyway


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

Raidmax 500W PSU any good?


----------



## Odin Eidolon (Feb 12, 2009)

BradleyKZN said:


> Raidmax 500W PSU any good?



nope


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

Damn. What about a liquidsilver 500W?

@JrRacingFan, that Odin PSU that is modular and has monitoring software costs couble what im actually wanting to get


----------



## JrRacinFan (Feb 12, 2009)

Remember though, if you want the features, well worth it. I still beleive the Coolermaster will treat you well also.

Never heard of liquidsilver brand. Wanna give me a link?


----------



## Flyordie (Feb 12, 2009)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d20/Flyordie07/Rage3D/SeaSonic550.jpg
Find somthing like that and your set.


----------



## JrRacinFan (Feb 12, 2009)

Flyordie said:


> http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d20/Flyordie07/Rage3D/SeaSonic550.jpg
> Find somthing like that and your set.



Totally agree with this and this is why I had stated the Odin for the premium, but reiterating my previous post:

Pay the premium get more features, or get the Coolermaster and still enjoy a worthwhile psu.


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 12, 2009)

That PSU is mega bucks where im from!!! More than half my monthly salary!!! CM it definately is!


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 13, 2009)

I just had an Enermax 620w Liberty die on me.  It was about 2 years, 3 months old.


----------



## AsRock (Feb 13, 2009)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I just had an Enermax 620w Liberty die on me.  It was about 2 years, 3 months old.



Still time to get it replaced then ...  Maybe they have a better revision of it now ?.  Or it was just bad luck.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it might be overloaded.  Sys specs:

2 x Intel Xeon X5310 (4 x 1.6 GHz) w/ Dynatron HSFs (~80x80x25mm fan on each)
8 x Kingston 1 GiB DDR-667 FB-DIMM w/ OCZ XTC Memory cooler (2 x Delta 60x60x10mm fans)
1 x EVGA 8500 GT
1 x HighPoint RocketRAID 2300
1 x Tyan Tempest i5000XT
2 x Sycthe 120x120x25mm case fans
3 x Masscool 80x80x25mm case fans
4 x Seagate 7200.10 Barracuda ES 320 GB SATA
2 x Seagate 7200.8 Barracuda 250 GB SATA
1 x Lite-On 20x DVD+/-RW PATA


They apparently still make the Enermax Liberty 620w (2 x 22a v12) but, if I can, I think I would like to upgrade to the Enermax MOD82+ 625w (3 x 25a v12).


I have to give it up for it though.  It ran about 2 years near non-stop (most of that time without the second processor and half as much memory though).


I sent Service Net some stuff and I'm waiting for a call back from them.


Update: I used a PSU calculator which came up with a figure of 716w so, I went and bought an Enermax Revolution 85+ 850w PSU.  The replaced PSU will end up in a different computer here.


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 16, 2009)

Because you all made me do it  I will be ordering a Gigabyte Odin 585W PSU, Not the PRO or GT, just the ordinary one. This has also forced me to change my colour scheme in the case and I am now getting the Aerocool Zero Degree so that my room is one great mass of blue


----------



## h3llb3nd4 (Feb 18, 2009)

hey Bradley, nice to know some one who is also in KZN! 
Aerocool Zerodegree is a good case BTW. (My favourite brand & I use the case)


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 19, 2009)

Cheers dude where abouts in KZN? I dont think im gonna get the Case anymore  well at least for the next couple of months. How have you setup your fans in that case btw?


----------



## h3llb3nd4 (Feb 19, 2009)

In Durbs, Westville...
I send you a pic just now


----------



## h3llb3nd4 (Feb 20, 2009)

Man I cant resize my pics!!!
K basically I just added fans whereever I had a place to fit them.
Goes in at the front and side...goes out at the rear.


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 23, 2009)

Yeah I was just wondering because of the front grills being so open, what the effect of them will be, my pc overheated twice on Saturday because of the heat, this damn Eshowe!


----------



## BradleyKZN (Feb 26, 2009)

My Gigabyte has been ordered and is on its way! Will be here tomorrow! Then its a CPU upgrade and Im all set


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 6, 2009)

*New Power Supply*

I hav just bought a cupel of raptors (74GB) and another 3870 graphics card. i have a corsiar vx550w power supply and when  i use the extreme power supply calculator  it came out as 646!. if i put in my current speck it says 558 so much on an over exaggeration is 646? any recommended psu that i should get as a replacement? im running tight on cash not that i just bought a cupel of raptors and a 3870.

System Speck will be:
intel q9400 oc from 2.6 tp 3.2 same vcore, asus p5e3 premium, xp pro, wd raptor (74GB) raid 0, WD 500GB, 2 1GB sticks of ocz ddr3-1066, ati sapphire 3870 512mb, MSI 3870 512mb factory OC, Sound blaster X-Fi and for a short time only corsair vx550w.

i not there are lodes of good power supplies but find researching then confusing, Watts and apps and the labels often lie!
if someone could give some advice on what PSU to use id be vary happy!


----------



## Flyordie (Apr 7, 2009)

SeaSonic, Antec, Corsair and PC Power and Cooling are 1st Tier.  ThermalTake, BFG and Cooler Master are 2nd Tier.  Athena Power, TopPower and Apevia are 3rd Tier.

(1st Tier = Best, 2nd Tier = Middle of the road, some good, some bad and 3rd Tier = avoid at all costs pretty much)


----------



## JrRacinFan (Apr 7, 2009)

@Tim

IMO, your current power supply will be fine.


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 7, 2009)

*Spike??*

Im just worried that my PSU will fail and spike, destroying everything. is the corsair vx550w likely 2 do this?


----------



## mlee49 (Apr 7, 2009)

Heck No!  Corsair's are stable psu's. They have excellent units but they do rename their boxes as they do not officially make their own.


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 7, 2009)

kk cool so i should just run the new set up with the corsair and if i need more power then upgrade. thanks


----------



## Flyordie (Apr 7, 2009)

550VX is good. ;-)


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Apr 7, 2009)

if you get a new PSU also you can look into Silverstone they make some solid PSUs also so does OCZ


----------



## suraswami (Apr 8, 2009)

I know Ultra earned bad name for their PSUs, but how are the new generation PSUs?

Anybody know what Manufacturer they are using.

I am getting a replacement and this is what I will be getting

http://www.ultraproducts.com/product_details.php?cPath=103&pPath=653&productID=654

Seems decent.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Apr 8, 2009)

the new ultra PSUs are decent but not the best


----------



## AUTOgod (Apr 19, 2009)

is there any chance of an update on the first post?
since thats what most people see and there are 18 pages of posts.

it was last updated 26th of december 2007, getting on for 18 months ago.

for example, i popped the lid off of my Hiper, only to find that it has no Andyson branding, and instead appears to be made by Hiper themselves.


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 19, 2009)

just incase any1 was wondering, my psu wasn't great enough for my crossfire and 3.6 Q9400, ordered a corsair tx 750w.


----------



## shadowdemonkid (Apr 23, 2009)

Question, I have two PSU's: A chiefmax PSU 500W with 28A across a 12v rail and a Thermaltake TR2 Cable Management 550W with 16A across on one 12v rail and 17A on another. Which PSU is better to run a AGP Radeon 3850 or X1950 Pro since these cards need 30A.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Apr 23, 2009)

shadowdemonkid said:


> Question, I have two PSU's: A chiefmax PSU 500W with 28A across a 12v rail and a Thermaltake TR2 Cable Management 550W with 16A across on one 12v rail and 17A on another. Which PSU is better to run a AGP Radeon 3850 or X1950 Pro since these cards need 30A.



if there both just sitting around then the Tt if you are using the Tt in another rig then the Chiefmax should work just fine 

EDIT: after looking DON'T USE THE CHIEFMAX they are SHIT!(sorry no other way to put it) throw the Chief out and use the Tt


----------



## shadowdemonkid (Apr 23, 2009)

Cool


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 23, 2009)

we that depends on the Thermaltake TR2 550, you say it has 2 12v rails but does it really? alot of psu's say that they hav multiple 12v rails but r just a single rail that wired into 2 or 3 rails.
google some reviews and try and find out the secrets of the Thermaltake TR2 550.
have you tried any of them in your pc yet?
i would suggest putting both on ebay then getting a corsair vx 550 or higher. i just sold my vx 550 on ebay for £40 + £10 p&p . my vx 550 was running 2 3870's PCI-e, Q9400 no OC, 2 raptors (74GB) and a 500 WD all sata on a single 41A 12v rail. wasn't enough power to overclock. as the psu was top quality, i was drawing more than 550 w out of it but it was still clean power. the only down side is that the vx and my tx series are not modular.
the vx 550w on £70 ebuyer


----------



## shadowdemonkid (Apr 23, 2009)

Cool. I'll look up the PSU


----------



## Wile E (Apr 24, 2009)

TechnoHolic_Tim said:


> we that depends on the Thermaltake TR2 550, you say it has 2 12v rails but does it really? alot of psu's say that they hav multiple 12v rails but r just a single rail that wired into 2 or 3 rails.
> google some reviews and try and find out the secrets of the Thermaltake TR2 550.
> have you tried any of them in your pc yet?
> i would suggest putting both on ebay then getting a corsair vx 550 or higher. i just sold my vx 550 on ebay for £40 + £10 p&p . my vx 550 was running 2 3870's PCI-e, Q9400 no OC, 2 raptors (74GB) and a 500 WD all sata on a single 41A 12v rail. wasn't enough power to overclock. as the psu was top quality, i was drawing more than 550 w out of it but it was still clean power. the only down side is that the vx and my tx series are not modular.
> the vx 550w on £70 ebuyer


It doesn't matter if it has 2 rails or not. All that matters is what amperage it can put out total on the 12V lines.

But I agree with the rest. He should grab a quality unit instead, like the Corsair you mentioned. Burn the Chiefmax while he's at it. lol.


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 24, 2009)

i disagree. it all depends on how the psu is made, in theory if you try and draw more than the amperage on ether rails it should shut down.
anyway, i would recommend single 12v rail psu over multiple rail psu because,independent 12s power supplies are virtually impossible to find so you ether;
buy a psu with a single INTERNAL 12v rail and multiple EXTERNAL 12v rails with there own current limiters. 
or
get a single internal 12v and single external 12v rail with current limiter on that rail.

the single rail option is therefore more flexible but the multiple rail MIGHT give a cleaner out put.


----------



## Inioch (Apr 24, 2009)

Do you guys have any knowledge of AcBel psu's. Mine is a Cooler Master Real Power M700, and I was planning on adding another 4870 for some crossfire. I read some stuff on using it for cf, but I'd like some insights from here too.

The problem is, that the psu only has 2x6-pin pci-e, and both cards require 2 of these. I was planning on using adapters, so that both cards would have 1x6-pin from the dedicated ones, and one using an adapter.

The psu has 4x19A (52A combined) 12V rails by specs, but how are these divided?
1 for cpu, 1 for each pci-e and 1 for the rest?
So how should I attach the adapters? Each having their own dedicated modular cable from the psu?

Hope you understood what I'm after here.


----------



## Inioch (Apr 25, 2009)

Anyone?


----------



## Flyordie (Apr 25, 2009)

I guess you could try it.  On the surface it would meet my requirements for the rig you got. 

If you overpower a rail, it shouldn't want to turn on or turn off on high load so just hook it up w/e way you feel most comfortable and go from there.


----------



## Inioch (Apr 25, 2009)

Well we'll see once I get both my cards.
One is being shipped from Canada and the other one is in a RMA process. 
Using a 3450 atm


----------



## Flyordie (Apr 25, 2009)

If you look at my specs, I would comfortably run another HD4850 or even an HD4870 XOC on it in crossfire and its just 550W. ;-)


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 25, 2009)

Flyordie said:


> If you look at my specs, I would comfortably run another HD4850 or even an HD4870 XOC on it in crossfire and its just 550W. ;-)



really? i think u might hav problems, unless the phantom is much more power efficient than the q9400


----------



## Flyordie (Apr 25, 2009)

TechnoHolic_Tim said:


> really? i think u might hav problems, unless the phantom is much more power efficient than the q9400



** Seasonic (usually the most expensive Psu's are seasonics, seasonic also sells their own PSu's, but many times its better to get a rebaged seasonic instead). common brands that use Seasonic: PC Power & Cooling, Corsair,etc.*

Its the highest quality manufacturer in the world at the moment. If it says 550W it will do 550W minimum.  My Seasonic built EA380 was rated at 380W but I had it pushing 420W for 3 days and it just got a little warm.  I should update my specs a bit... lol.


----------



## TechnoHolic_Tim (Apr 25, 2009)

fair enough, i just though "comfortably" was a bit much


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Apr 26, 2009)

I think there is 19a for PCI-E 1 19a PCI-E 2 19a hdds/accs(molexs,SATA,etc) 19a CPU/mobo

not sure if that is right or not its just a guess.I would like to know how my PSU divided the rails also.(I have 4 of them)


----------



## Inioch (Apr 26, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> I think there is 19a for PCI-E 1 19a PCI-E 2 19a hdds/accs(molexs,SATA,etc) 19a CPU/mobo
> 
> not sure if that is right or not its just a guess.I would like to know how my PSU divided the rails also.(I have 4 of them)



Thats what I'm thinking too. Why can't other manufacturers do, what Fractal is doing, clearly labeling the connectors on the psu, as to which use which rails.

Like this (the third picture)


----------



## Wile E (Apr 26, 2009)

TechnoHolic_Tim said:


> i disagree. it all depends on how the psu is made, in theory if you try and draw more than the amperage on ether rails it should shut down.
> anyway, i would recommend single 12v rail psu over multiple rail psu because,independent 12s power supplies are virtually impossible to find so you ether;
> buy a psu with a single INTERNAL 12v rail and multiple EXTERNAL 12v rails with there own current limiters.
> or
> ...


Most multi rail psus are made so that it's very difficult to trip the OCP with modern components if the PSU meets your overall power requirements. The high quality manufacturers all split their rails sensibly. Multi or single does not matter. Both have their Pros and Cons, and one should not choose a psu based solely on the number of rails. Even Jonny Guru himself says it doesn't matter at all. All that matters is the quality and output capabilities of the unit.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Apr 26, 2009)

Inioch said:


> Thats what I'm thinking too. Why can't other manufacturers do, what Fractal is doing, clearly labeling the connectors on the psu, as to which use which rails.
> 
> Like this (the third picture)



I know my PCI-E connectors say what rail they are on and i think the 12v wires have a different color stripe depending on the rail its on.If i wouldn't have redid my WM a few days ago i would look but don't want to spend hours again.(this Antec 300 is a bitch for WM)


----------



## stefanels (Jun 7, 2009)

I have a question: Can you use a separate PSU (like 400W+) to power 2xGTX260 SLI, without connecting the PSU to mobo?!


----------



## MRCL (Jun 7, 2009)

stefanels said:


> I have a question: Can you use a separate PSU (like 400W+) to power 2xGTX260 SLI, without connecting the PSU to mobo?!



If you bridge the 24pin connector, yes, of course. Connect a green and a black wire, like this





It works, there are also adapters which are less ghetto like this:
http://www.aquatuning.ch/product_info.php/info/p5246_ATX--berbr-ckungsstecker--24-Pin-.html


----------



## CDdude55 (Jun 7, 2009)

stefanels said:


> I have a question: Can you use a separate PSU (like 400W+) to power 2xGTX260 SLI, without connecting the PSU to mobo?!



There are PSUs that are only for GPU's, but i dont see much of a point in them as you can just get a beefy standard one to power everything.


If you are saying can you use a standard 400w PSU that you have to power your GPUs, well sure, but you need the space for it, plus they will both use alot of electrical power.


----------



## stefanels (Jun 7, 2009)

It's NOT for me, a friend ask me if it's possible... I think he have an 550W PSU in the rig and an unused 470W PSU... So practically it's better to sell them both and buy a more powerful PSU like 750W+... NO?


----------



## MRCL (Jun 7, 2009)

stefanels said:


> It's NOT for me, a friend ask me if it's possible... I think he have an 550W PSU in the rig and an unused 470W PSU... So practically it's better to sell them both and buy a more powerful PSU like 750W+... NO?



Yes, for space, convenience and power reasons.


----------



## stefanels (Jun 7, 2009)

thanks for the quick answers...


----------



## infocus (Jun 14, 2009)

*Ultra X3 Modular 850 watts*

This PSU has decent ratings.Any thoughts on "Ultra Power Supplies".


----------



## CDdude55 (Jun 14, 2009)

infocus said:


> This PSU has decent ratings.Any thoughts on "Ultra Power Supplies".



Not the best brand but i dont think there that bad, You can still get a way better PSU.


----------



## Flyordie (Aug 5, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxEapiZVs7k&NR=1
Thats how a PSU should be built.... AND.. my midtower supports that PSU type.. ;-p


----------



## CDdude55 (Aug 5, 2009)

Flyordie said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxEapiZVs7k&NR=1
> Thats how a PSU should be built.... AND.. my midtower supports that PSU type.. ;-p



Thats one huge PSU, i would use it as a table.


----------



## panchoman (Oct 2, 2009)

hey guys, panchoman here, 

I need some people to help me out with completing the guide. If anyone wishes to help out, please pm me. 

-thanks.


----------



## 1933 Poker (Nov 15, 2009)

I bought a PC Power and Cooling (OCZ) 750 Watt Blue Quad PSu and I've never been happier using a computer!!


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Nov 15, 2009)

1933 Poker said:


> I bought a PC Power and Cooling (OCZ) 750 Watt Blue Quad PSu and I've never been happier using a computer!!



thats good to hear... I am still happy with my 700w OCZ and 650w Silverstone both still running strong and taking my abuse about a year later


----------



## tollickd (Nov 25, 2009)

Has anyone got a TAGAN TG600-U88 BZ PIPEROCK SERIES 600W

I am getting:

INTEL I7 860 2.80 GHz socket 1156
GIGABYTE GA-P55-UD3R this is the motherboard
G.SKILL F3-16000CL9D-4GBGT1 4GB (2X2GB) DDR3 PC3-16000 2000MHZ GT1 SERIES DUAL CHANNEL KIT
MSI 4890 CYCLONE 1GB
SEAGATE BARRACUDA LP ST31000520AS 1TB SATA2
MICROSOFT WINDOWS 7 ULTIMATE 64-BIT
SAMSUNG SYNCMASTER P2350 23'' TFT MONITOR

and I am think of get this PSU would it be ok to use in a few months for a crossfire of 2 of the 4890's? 

or would it just be better to get a CORSAIR CMPSU-550VX 550W or THERMALTAKE W0306 EVO BLUE 550W?


----------



## MRCL (Nov 25, 2009)

tollickd said:


> Has anyone got a TAGAN TG600-U88 BZ PIPEROCK SERIES 600W
> 
> I am getting:
> 
> ...



Eeeeh I'd be careful with crossfire 4890s and 600W PSUs. I'd get at least a 750W.


----------



## tollickd (Nov 25, 2009)

Ok it looks like i might have to get some more money and get the CORSAIR TX850W well it looks like i will be working overtime this weekend so if i can afford it i will get the 850w


----------



## JackAttack (Jan 13, 2010)

Well, I'm shopping for a new PSU.
I had in mind the following (2):

Ultra X4 850-Watt Modular Power Supply - 135mm Fan, ATX, Lifetime Warranty, 80+ Silver, NVIDIA SLI & ATI Crossfire Certifications.

Corsair TX850W Power Supply - 850W, ATX, 80Plus, single +12V rail, Limited warranty 60 months for parts and 60 months for labor.

Any input on which one you would buy and why? I like the Ultra because it is "certified" ATI and SLI. It is MODULAR and also comes with a LIFETIME warranty. How can you beat that?


----------



## Wile E (Jan 13, 2010)

JackAttack said:


> Well, I'm shopping for a new PSU.
> I had in mind the following (2):
> 
> Ultra X4 850-Watt Modular Power Supply - 135mm Fan, ATX, Lifetime Warranty, 80+ Silver, NVIDIA SLI & ATI Crossfire Certifications.
> ...



Corsair, without a shadow of a doubt. It is just built better in every way.


----------



## JackAttack (Jan 13, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Corsair, without a shadow of a doubt. It is just built better in every way.



Yea...I was thinking the same thing but I really want a modular PSU.
Any suggestions for that? 
How about the Corsair HX850W?


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 13, 2010)

JackAttack said:


> Well, I'm shopping for a new PSU.
> I had in mind the following (2):
> 
> Ultra X4 850-Watt Modular Power Supply - 135mm Fan, ATX, Lifetime Warranty, 80+ Silver, NVIDIA SLI & ATI Crossfire Certifications.
> ...



I have been an Ultra Supporter for Years. The Andyson Platform their Last Generation LSP's and X3's are built on stands the test of time for sure. I have 33 units registered from client builds and have not had a single RMA to date.

That being said the X4 is based on a  new platform that doesn't quite meet up to my specs as of yet, it needs to mature a little much like the X2 - X3 was a better Transition.

So to be safe I'd suggest the following.

HX850 (Believe it or not they use a Licenced version of the Ultra Connectors)
Silverstone Strider Plus (Very important its the Plus) 850W - This is an Enhance built tank and its a lower profile (190mm) PSU than the longer HX850. 

Both of these are silver rated and very very good.

ST


----------



## Wile E (Jan 13, 2010)

JackAttack said:


> Yea...I was thinking the same thing but I really want a modular PSU.
> Any suggestions for that?



Not unless you want to spring more money for the same wattage or the same money for less wattage.


----------



## JackAttack (Jan 13, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Not unless you want to spring more money for the same wattage or the same money for less wattage.



Money is not an issue.


----------



## JackAttack (Jan 13, 2010)

SoulTribunal said:


> I have been an Ultra Supporter for Years. The Andyson Platform their Last Generation LSP's and X3's are built on stands the test of time for sure. I have 33 units registered from client builds and have not had a single RMA to date.
> 
> That being said the X4 is based on a  new platform that doesn't quite meet up to my specs as of yet, it needs to mature a little much like the X2 - X3 was a better Transition.
> 
> ...




Thanks, I'll check them both out.


----------



## p_o_s_pc (Jan 13, 2010)

Look at the Seasonic M12D 850. That thing is a beast its the HX850 equivalent and sometime is cheaper. Look up the reviews you will see they compare well to each other maybe because they are basically  the same PSU


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 14, 2010)

p_o_s_pc said:


> Look at the Seasonic M12D 850. That thing is a beast its the HX850 equivalent and sometime is cheaper. Look up the reviews you will see they compare well to each other maybe because they are basically  the same PSU



Not quite. In comparisions of stats they are. The HX850W uses the new CWT (Channel Well Technologies Platform) where as the Seasonic is Seasonic 

Close though in actual specs. Either one would work fine too.

I'm lean more towards Corsair/SIlverstone because of CWT and Enhance platform topology. But thats just me.

ST


----------



## TIGR (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks, lots of good info in this thread.


----------



## Flyordie (Jan 14, 2010)

UPDATE INFORMATION
-Antec Basiq Series- OEM is Fortron.  E135662
-Basiq Plus is also Fortron E135662


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 14, 2010)

I think the Front Page needs to be Updated a bit.

Hiper units used a bad Andy platform, which is true. But I do believe they have since mitigated away from it.

Ultra's X3's (reviewed by JG) and Owned 33 of them are Andy Platforms and are literal Tanks.
X3 + LSP = Andy.

As well the X4's are New Andy Platforms.

BFG Uses Andy.

OCZ and FSP platforms should not be in green by anystretch. They use older and inefficent setups, and even their Gold ones leave a lot to be desired.

Enhance should be moved high up on the ladder here as well. Their Platforms are nowadays some of the highest end you can get.
Along with CWT. CWT Platforms for Thermaltake and Corsair are some of the Best available. Sure they have some not so good ones but they are awesome in general.

My thoughts.

ST


----------



## TIGR (Jan 14, 2010)

I didn't look through closely to see if there's anything here that isn't already in this thread, but in case it helps:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDArticles&op=Story&ndar_id=24


----------



## Wile E (Jan 15, 2010)

SoulTribunal said:


> I think the Front Page needs to be Updated a bit.
> 
> Hiper units used a bad Andy platform, which is true. But I do believe they have since mitigated away from it.
> 
> ...


While not terrible, Andyson is not a top platform. The Ultra X4 uses an older style setup than even the OCZ and FSP platforms. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=174

Ultra psus are decidedly average.


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 15, 2010)

Wile E said:


> While not terrible, Andyson is not a top platform. The Ultra X4 uses an older style setup than even the OCZ and FSP platforms. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=174
> 
> Ultra psus are decidedly average.



Yes, they are. I never said otherwise. However, as many people who know me on HWC, My OCZ PSU RMA list is almsot 2 pages long now lol.

Where as the 33 registared units I have with Ultra have stood the test of time. Mind you the Ultra and their Andy Platforms suffer in the efficency department. 

ST


----------



## Wile E (Jan 15, 2010)

SoulTribunal said:


> Yes, they are. I never said otherwise. However, as many people who know me on HWC, My OCZ PSU RMA list is almsot 2 pages long now lol.
> 
> Where as the 33 registared units I have with Ultra have stood the test of time. Mind you the Ultra and their Andy Platforms suffer in the efficency department.
> 
> ST



Yeah, the older OCZ units leave much to be desired as well, but they are still technically newer designs than the Andy units. Low quality parts will hurt even the best design tho.


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 15, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Yeah, the older OCZ units leave much to be desired as well, but they are still technically newer designs than the Andy units. Low quality parts will hurt even the best design tho.



Perhaps. When JG Reviewed the X3 though, you can tell its a quality unit. Next to no Ripple on that thing, and it was very well regulated.

As for the X4 well like I said, it needs to be mitigated to a better platform.
Its still much better than a lot of the pretenders out there right now but obviously not top Tier.

ST


----------



## Bo_Fox (Jan 15, 2010)

OCZ Fatal1ty 700W PSU's are truly great.  I bought one for myself and one for my younger brother.  Rock solid voltages, cool running, very heavy build, and capable of handling a lot. 

It also has kick-ass red LED's, a red glowing Fatal1ty logo, and red cables/molexs.  The only gripe is that the cable sleeving could have covered more of the cables, and that the molex connectors are so damn hard to connect to peripherals!


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 15, 2010)

Bo_Fox said:


> OCZ Fatal1ty 700W PSU's are truly great.  I bought one for myself and one for my younger brother.  Rock solid voltages, cool running, very heavy build, and capable of handling a lot.
> 
> It also has kick-ass red LED's, a red glowing Fatal1ty logo, and red cables/molexs.  The only gripe is that the cable sleeving could have covered more of the cables, and that the molex connectors are so damn hard to connect to peripherals!



I guess you got one of the rare good ones mate. Fatality ones I have RMA'd 4 Times now.
ANd on my Fathers ATX Tester, I watch two give up the ghost when put to their max output..

To each their own.

ST


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## Bo_Fox (Jan 15, 2010)

SoulTribunal said:


> I guess you got one of the rare good ones mate. Fatality ones I have RMA'd 4 Times now.
> ANd on my Fathers ATX Tester, I watch two give up the ghost when put to their max output..
> 
> To each their own.
> ...



4 times??  Damn, that sucks.  There have been many positive reviews of this PSU on the 'net, and nearly all of the Newegg reviews are also positive.  Did yours have an aneurysm at 600W or not 'till 700W output?


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 15, 2010)

Bo_Fox said:


> 4 times??  Damn, that sucks.  There have been many positive reviews of this PSU on the 'net, and nearly all of the Newegg reviews are also positive.  Did yours have an aneurysm at 600W or not 'till 700W output?



It popped around or just before 700W I believe.

Three other people I know have had no luck either. One on a 1050W that died at 496W Pulled from the wall. The one on my Highspeed Techstation has died twice. And that was on a Q6600 / Intel X48 Board, and I single 9800GT.

ST


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## Bo_Fox (Jan 15, 2010)

SoulTribunal said:


> It popped around or just before 700W I believe.
> 
> Three other people I know have had no luck either. One on a 1050W that died at 496W Pulled from the wall. The one on my Highspeed Techstation has died twice. And that was on a Q6600 / Intel X48 Board, and I single 9800GT.
> 
> ST



You must be talking about a different PSU because there is not a 1050W version of the Fatal1ty.  

Oh, never mind..  it's the name of your case..  I think I get it.  Then I guess this PSU doesn't quite cut the mustard for over 75% capacity.  [H]ardOCP has one of the best PSU reviews around that stresses them out at high temps, but they have not yet tested this one.  OH well.


----------



## SoulTribunal (Jan 15, 2010)

Bo_Fox said:


> You must be talking about a different PSU because there is not a 1050W version of the Fatal1ty.
> 
> Oh, never mind..  it's the name of your case..  I think I get it.  Then I guess this PSU doesn't quite cut the mustard for over 75% capacity.  [H]ardOCP has one of the best PSU reviews around that stresses them out at high temps, but they have not yet tested this one.  OH well.



I wouldn't worry too Much. The one good thing I can say about them is each time I have popped one or my friends have popped one of these OCZ PSU's it was only the PSU that died and not the rest of the gear attached.
So thats a positive note.

I will try OCZ again in the future once they really firmly work together with PC POwer and Cooling on platforms.
Then perhaps we will have the best of both worlds. Until then though, I have steered clear for now.

ST


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## Flyordie (Jan 21, 2010)

FSP = Bad...

Found 3 bad caps in my Basiq tonight.

All 3 are from CapXon.


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## Flyordie (Feb 7, 2010)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817176005

I thought Sventeam was good?  I mean seriously... lol


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## p_o_s_pc (Feb 7, 2010)

Flyordie said:


> FSP = Bad...
> 
> Found 3 bad caps in my Basiq tonight.
> 
> All 3 are from CapXon.



Not all FSP are bad. Antec tells them what they want in the PSU so they make it to how they want. Its been known that Basiq aren't good. The OCZ 700w GXS that i have is made by FSP and i yet to have a problem with it(knock on wood) and its powering the rig in my specs.


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## JrRacinFan (Feb 7, 2010)

Flyordie said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817176005
> 
> I thought Sventeam was good?  I mean seriously... lol



Seventeam is good. Nice deal btw!



p_o_s_pc said:


> Not all FSP are bad. Antec tells them what they want in the PSU so they make it to how they want. Its been known that Basiq aren't good. The OCZ 700w GXS that i have is made by FSP and i yet to have a problem with it(knock on wood) and its powering the rig in my specs.



I stand by you with that, pos. While FSP is a great OEM, they can only build what they are told to build when given certain components.


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## vipz (Mar 4, 2010)

if due to electrical surge or any disturbance in line a psu blows then what?
every good psu has scp,ovp,olp etc.. but its for anything happen after psu(short circuit in motherboard,etc..)
in my neighborhood a person connect his pc directly to mains without ups and due to irregularities in mains his psu blows and his HDD,motherboard got destroyed.then why one should spend premium for psu's.Does any psu has protection for such events.


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## Wile E (Mar 5, 2010)

vipz said:


> if due to electrical surge or any disturbance in line a psu blows then what?
> every good psu has scp,ovp,olp etc.. but its for anything happen after psu(short circuit in motherboard,etc..)
> in my neighborhood a person connect his pc directly to mains without ups and due to irregularities in mains his psu blows and his HDD,motherboard got destroyed.then why one should spend premium for psu's.Does any psu has protection for such events.



For surges? Yes, it's called a fuse. Does the same thing a surge protector does. Have to open the unit to get to it, but it has one.

For brown outs and fluctuations? If your mains fluctuate enough to blow a psu, you should automatically have your sensitive electronics on a ups or power conditioner. That's the power company's and your friend's fault, not the psu's. Quite frankly, anyone willing to plug a computer directly into the mains while knowing they have fluctuating power, deserves to lose their stuff.


----------



## vipz (Mar 5, 2010)

Wile E said:


> For surges? Yes, it's called a fuse. Does the same thing a surge protector does. Have to open the unit to get to it, but it has one.
> 
> For brown outs and fluctuations? If your mains fluctuate enough to blow a psu, you should automatically have your sensitive electronics on a ups or power conditioner. That's the power company's and your friend's fault, not the psu's. Quite frankly, anyone willing to plug a computer directly into the mains while knowing they have fluctuating power, deserves to lose their stuff.



i know very well about surge protectors and fuse.u didn't get my point i want to say that a good psu must have protection for line disturbances.

and the power supply that blows has inbuilt fuse but it didn't work.



> Quite frankly, anyone willing to plug a computer directly into the mains while knowing they have fluctuating power, deserves to lose their stuff.



who can predict that there will be a fluctuation in mains.


----------



## Wile E (Mar 6, 2010)

vipz said:


> i know very well about surge protectors and fuse.u didn't get my point i want to say that a good psu must have protection for line disturbances.
> 
> and the power supply that blows has inbuilt fuse but it didn't work.
> 
> ...



A simple, and cheap surge protector protects you from spikes in voltage. If you do not have your computer plugged into a good surge protector, it's your fault.

For low voltage, a power conditioner or UPS can help. Tho, I rarely see damage from low voltage.


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## westom (Mar 6, 2010)

Wile E said:


> A simple, and cheap surge protector protects you from spikes in voltage. If you do not have your computer plugged into a good surge protector, it's your fault.
> 
> For low voltage, a power conditioner or UPS can help. Tho, I rarely see damage from low voltage.


Why no damage from low voltage?  Because international design standards even 40 years ago - long before PC exists - demanded no damage from any low voltage.  In fact, the low voltage region on one chart is quite blunt about it - in all capital letters:  "NO DAMAGE REGION".

  But many only learn about electricity from myths.  Or see damage, then use wild speculation to ‘know’ why damage exists.  Some myths to confront:

  Shorting a power supply causes damage.  Nonsense.   Intel even defines how large the shorting wire must be to test that supply.  You must short all outputs from any powered on supply and no damage results.  A standard long before PC existed.

  No power supply must damage any motherboard or other components.  More standards that existed long before Intel also demanded same.

  Any protection that might work on a power supply's power cord already exists inside the supply.  Routine even 40 years ago (again international design standards) was 120 volt electronics to withstand up to 600 volts without damage. Today, ATX specs put that number in excess of 1000 volts.  Worse, a protector adjacent to electronics even gives surges more destructive paths.  May even compromise protection inside a computer.

  Effective surge protection in any facility that can never suffer damage is as close to earth ground as possible.  And (in the case of telco switching centers) up to 50 meters separated from electronics.  So that protection inside any appliance is not overwhelmed, the rare and destructive surge must be earthed before it can enter the building. And best performed distant from electronics.  Separation between a protector and electronics increases protection.

 Surges occur daily only when junk science replaces common knowledge.  How often is a dimmer switch destroyed every day? Where is a protector that protects it? Even dimmer switches are so robust as to make ‘dirty’ electricity irrelevant. Computers are required to be even more robust.

  How robust?  Some of the dirtiest electricity comes from a UPS in battery backup mode.  Of course, the many who know without learning numbers would believe popular myths.  The numbers from this typical 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode.  Its output voltage is two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves.  This voltage can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors.  And since electronics are so robust, this same UPS power is ideal for electronics.

  Power that must never harm electronics can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors - devices that are not as robust.  Numbers that popular myth forgets to include.  Too many above posts are nothing more than wild speculation when the author forgot to first learn basic electric principles.  And never once posted numbers.

  More numbers.  The specifications on all electronics define normal voltage so low that an incandescent bulb at 50% intensity is perfectly ideal voltage to any electronics. That same low voltage may be harmful to the refrigerator, furnace, or dishwasher.  One need only learn simple electrical concepts and the numbers to see why that is so.

  Why is voltage held so stable to not dim bulbs to 50% intensity? Because voltage variations can cause air conditioner and fan motor damage.  Why do so many worry about voltage variations to a computer?  Because they believed what they were told to believe rather than first learn any numbers.  That and knowledge only from observation are called junk science reasoning.

  Why are those myths so widely believed?  Because ineffective and obscene profit products are sold to cure those myths.  For example, what is a power strip protector?  A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts selling for $25 or $150.  With profit margins that high, even I would be posting those lies.

  How much power does a computer consume?  Typically 200 watts.  Therefore install 350 watt supplies.  However, due to what they are measuring, some 350 watt supplies are also called 500 watts.  No, they are not lying. They are just measuring something different.

  To hype better 'quality', another myth is what Tim Allen so routinely mocked, "More Power!".  More wattage does not mean a better supply.  In fact to cut costs, some supplies sell more power while forgetting to include other essential functions.  If the computer boots, the naive will not notice the missing functions.  Sell a 1000 watt supply without those functions for less than $60 means a higher profit margin compared to a 400 watt supply with all those functions for more than $60.  Those who know without first learning numbers and what those basic functions are will, instead, hype the 1000 watt supply.  And then suffer failures latter due to those missing functions.

  I believe that is enough challenged urban myths for one day.


----------



## erocker (Mar 6, 2010)

westom said:


> Why no damage from low voltage?  Because international design standards even 40 years ago - long before PC exists - demanded no damage from any low voltage.  In fact, the low voltage region on one chart is quite blunt about it - in all capital letters:  "NO DAMAGE REGION".
> 
> But many only learn about electricity from myths.  Or see damage, then use wild speculation to ‘know’ why damage exists.  Some myths to confront:
> 
> ...



No mention of amperage?


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## westom (Mar 7, 2010)

erocker said:


> No mention of amperage?


 What amperage from where?  Output amperage?  AC amperage?  Amperage to safety ground?  Transient amps?  Amperage from a current source?  Amperage from a voltage source?  Foldback current limiting?  Of which electrical function are you asking?


----------



## erocker (Mar 7, 2010)

Generally speaking the amperage that is supplied for a video card and the amperage requirements of video cards in relation to the amount of wattage needed. Obviously I don't have my electricians vocabulary handbook next to me. Is it possible for a PSU to supply enough watts but not enough amperage where it's needed?


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## westom (Mar 7, 2010)

erocker said:


> Generally speaking the amperage that is supplied for a video card and the amperage requirements of video cards in relation to the amount of wattage needed.


  High school physics.  Power equals voltage time current.  Voltage is fixed.  Therefore a power supply's job (among so many) is to provide (adjust) current for the required power.  Provide whatever the load demands.  That load is a video card and everything else.  I don't understand what is causing the confusion.


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## erocker (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks for the information. I wasn't questioning your information, just asking for a bit more. To be honest, I know very little about this kind of stuff.


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## westom (Mar 7, 2010)

erocker said:


> Thanks for the information. I wasn't questioning your information, just asking for a bit more. To be honest, I know very little about this kind of stuff.


  A power supply is a constant voltage source.   It will output as little or as much current necessary to maintain that constant voltage.

  Indicator of a defective supply occurs when it does not maintain that voltage during maximum load - when all peripherals are being multitasked to simultaneously.  This can be due to a power supply that is undersized or other failures - often long before those failures cause computer problems.

  Typically, a power supply will still boot a computer even when not performing properly. But measuring each voltage when the load is demanding maximum current (when all peripherals are being multitasked) can identify a defective supply long (ie months) before that supply causes computer crashes.

  A properly working supply will maintain voltages constant (ie measured within three significant digits) as the load demands more and less power.


----------



## Wile E (Mar 7, 2010)

westom said:


> Why no damage from low voltage?  Because international design standards even 40 years ago - long before PC exists - demanded no damage from any low voltage.  In fact, the low voltage region on one chart is quite blunt about it - in all capital letters:  "NO DAMAGE REGION".
> 
> But many only learn about electricity from myths.  Or see damage, then use wild speculation to ‘know’ why damage exists.  Some myths to confront:
> 
> Shorting a power supply causes damage.  Nonsense.   Intel even defines how large the shorting wire must be to test that supply.  You must short all outputs from any powered on supply and no damage results.  A standard long before PC existed.


Who said anything about that? I'm pretty sure most of us know a shorted psu just shuts off.



westom said:


> No power supply must damage any motherboard or other components.  More standards that existed long before Intel also demanded same.


Just because specs say they must not, does not mean that it is true in practice. It's been shown that a defective psu can take the rest of the computer with it. Safeguards mean nothing if the safeguards fail with the rest of the psu.



westom said:


> Any protection that might work on a power supply's power cord already exists inside the supply.  Routine even 40 years ago (again international design standards) was 120 volt electronics to withstand up to 600 volts without damage. Today, ATX specs put that number in excess of 1000 volts.  Worse, a protector adjacent to electronics even gives surges more destructive paths.  May even compromise protection inside a computer.


What about excessive amperage?



westom said:


> Effective surge protection in any facility that can never suffer damage is as close to earth ground as possible.  And (in the case of telco switching centers) up to 50 meters separated from electronics.  So that protection inside any appliance is not overwhelmed, the rare and destructive surge must be earthed before it can enter the building. And best performed distant from electronics.  Separation between a protector and electronics increases protection.


Power surges make it past all the safeguards prior to the wall socket on numerous occasions. Also, the inbuilt surge protection in power supplies may not always work. Nothing works 100% of the time. And if the built in surge protection in the PSU is a fuse, you still go without a computer if it blows, as opening the unit and replacing the fuse yourself will void your warranty. A surge protector is a smart investment. It's just another line of defense. There is nothing wrong with additional safeguards.



westom said:


> Surges occur daily only when junk science replaces common knowledge.  How often is a dimmer switch destroyed every day? Where is a protector that protects it? Even dimmer switches are so robust as to make ‘dirty’ electricity irrelevant. Computers are required to be even more robust.


No, computers are not, and have never been, more robust than a simple rheostat.



westom said:


> How robust?  Some of the dirtiest electricity comes from a UPS in battery backup mode.  Of course, the many who know without learning numbers would believe popular myths.  The numbers from this typical 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode.  Its output voltage is two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves.  This voltage can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors.  And since electronics are so robust, this same UPS power is ideal for electronics.


Proof? And don't show me an experiment on some generic, low-quality generic UPS.



westom said:


> Power that must never harm electronics can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors - devices that are not as robust.  Numbers that popular myth forgets to include.  Too many above posts are nothing more than wild speculation when the author forgot to first learn basic electric principles.  And never once posted numbers.
> 
> More numbers.  The specifications on all electronics define normal voltage so low that an incandescent bulb at 50% intensity is perfectly ideal voltage to any electronics. That same low voltage may be harmful to the refrigerator, furnace, or dishwasher.  One need only learn simple electrical concepts and the numbers to see why that is so.
> 
> Why is voltage held so stable to not dim bulbs to 50% intensity? Because voltage variations can cause air conditioner and fan motor damage.  Why do so many worry about voltage variations to a computer?  Because they believed what they were told to believe rather than first learn any numbers.  That and knowledge only from observation are called junk science reasoning.


Except that the scope of this thread includes only computer power supplies, so what effects low mains voltages has on motors or compressors has no bearing in this conversation.


westom said:


> Why are those myths so widely believed?  Because ineffective and obscene profit products are sold to cure those myths.  For example, what is a power strip protector?  A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts selling for $25 or $150.  With profit margins that high, even I would be posting those lies.


 Who said anything about having to spend $25+ on a power strip?



westom said:


> How much power does a computer consume?  Typically 200 watts.  Therefore install 350 watt supplies.  However, due to what they are measuring, some 350 watt supplies are also called 500 watts.  No, they are not lying. They are just measuring something different.
> 
> To hype better 'quality', another myth is what Tim Allen so routinely mocked, "More Power!".  More wattage does not mean a better supply.  In fact to cut costs, some supplies sell more power while forgetting to include other essential functions.  If the computer boots, the naive will not notice the missing functions.  Sell a 1000 watt supply without those functions for less than $60 means a higher profit margin compared to a 400 watt supply with all those functions for more than $60.  Those who know without first learning numbers and what those basic functions are will, instead, hype the 1000 watt supply.  And then suffer failures latter due to those missing functions.


Read most of the recommendations in this thread, and in the rest of the forum actually, you would notice that most everyone here pushes build quality over wattage ratings. We'd rather you buy a 400W Corsair than a 700W generic psu.




westom said:


> I believe that is enough challenged urban myths for one day.



No, I believe all you have done is speculate further. You have provided no more evidence than anyone else in this thread.


----------



## Frick (Mar 7, 2010)

Wile E said:


> A simple, and cheap surge protector protects you from spikes in voltage. If you do not have your computer plugged into a good surge protector, it's your fault.



Tell that to the guy who has no idea what the heck voltage means.

And he said "some myths", indicating he meant general myths, not just whatever myths have been posted here.


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## HammerON (Mar 7, 2010)

I agree. I found westom's post helpful
But then again I am ignorant when it comes to understanding psu's~


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## westom (Mar 7, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Who said anything about that? I'm pretty sure most of us know a shorted psu just shuts off.


A post based in insufficient electrical knowledge.  Denials made without 'reasons why' is insulting to everyone who bothered to first learn before posting.

  A shorted power supply does not power off.  It goes into current foldback limiting.   A post based in observation and wild speculation would not know what supplies did even 50 years ago.  One is supposed to learn this technology before posting.

  Computers are some of the most robust devices in a building - as was demonstrated by examples and from manufacturer spec numbers.  At least one had enough respect for the reader to also post ‘reasons why’.

  Power supplies make a computer robust.  Numeric specs make that obvious.  UPS in battery backup mode outputs power so 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors.  But electronics are so robust as to not be harmed by, for example, two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves.  Contrary to myths, power supplies make computers robust. 

  Anyone knows a dimmer switch is not "a simple rheostat".  Obvious using two simple equations from high school physics (V=IR and P=VI).  If it was a rheostat, then a dimmer switch would be too hot touch – as simple arithmetic says.  Obviously - a dimmer switch is a semiconductor device; not as robust as any computer.  If daily surges exist - as only the most electrically naive are told to believe - then everyone is replacing that semiconductor dimmer switch hourly or daily.

  Power supplies only destroy a motherboard when the human has insufficient technical knowledge - ie buys power supplies that do not even meet minimal industry standards.  Due to experts without electrical knowledge, those supplies can be dumped into the market at lower price and higher profits.  The only reason why a motherboard can be damaged by the supply:  Same technical knowledge that somehow 'knows' dimmer switches are rheostats.  





> And if the built in surge protection in the PSU is a fuse, you still go without a computer if it blows, as opening the unit and replacing the fuse yourself will void your warranty.


  Anyone with minimal electrical knowledge knows a fuse provides no surge protection.   Simplest numbers make that obvious.  Surges are done in microseconds.  Fuses take tens of milliseconds to blow.  300 consecutive surges could pass through any fuse and that fuse would not blow.

  Fuses and circuit breakers protect humans after damage has occurred. Disconnects power so that damage does not cause a fire.  But again, basic electrical knowledge.  Only those trained in urban myths and hearsay ‘know’ a fuse provides surge protection.

  If mains fluctuate, then a power supply maintains stable power or just shuts off.  If power fluctuates - bulb dims to 50% - then motorized appliances can be damaged. And electronics remain unharmed. No power supply blows.  It either provides constant and stable power.  Or it shuts off - unharmed. 

  Now, an honest naysayer could say what part 'blows' if voltage fluctuates.  That means the always required ‘reasons why’ was included.   None were provided because that post is urban myths.

  Destructive power fluctuations will first damage supplies that are not as robust – ie plug-in UPSes and power conditioners.  

  Power conditioners, et al are best located on the refrigerator and furnace that are at greater risk due to power fluctuations.   Reality - those fluctuations exist only when myths are posted.  When someone also 'knows' a dimmer switch is a rheostat.  When fuses somehow become a surge protector.  Same naivety may even recommend a power strip protector.  All recommendations when one knows without first learning simple electrical concepts.

  A power supply means power fluctuations are irrelevant and cause no damage.


----------



## Frick (Mar 7, 2010)

westom said:


> Power supplies only destroy a motherboard when the human has insufficient technical knowledge - ie buys power supplies that do not even meet minimal industry standards.  Due to experts without electrical knowledge, those supplies can be dumped into the market at lower price and higher profits.



These are not as common as they used to be though (at least not in my corner of the world). ^^


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## westom (Mar 8, 2010)

Frick said:


> These are not as common as they used to be though (at least not in my corner of the world).


  Probably because more now confront popular myths posted from near zero electrical knowledge.  Those inferior supplies are still sold in big box stores and are still found in clone computers.

   How to identify an inferior power supplies.  Locate an AM (longwave) radio adjacent to that computer.  Does noise interfere with reception from a 50 or 75 kilometer distant radio station?  Then a power supply may be missing essential functions.  Even defective power supplies will still boot a computer.


----------



## CDdude55 (Mar 8, 2010)

westom said:


> How to identify an inferior power supplies.  Locate an AM (longwave) radio adjacent to that computer.  Does noise interfere with reception from a 50 or 75 kilometer distant radio station?  Then a power supply may be missing essential functions.  Even defective power supplies will still boot a computer.



Ya, i'll just stick to buying quality brands., For me, as long as it has good wattage, good amperage, maybe even modular cables to boot, then i'm a happy camper.


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## Wile E (Mar 9, 2010)

westom said:


> A post based in insufficient electrical knowledge.  Denials made without 'reasons why' is insulting to everyone who bothered to first learn before posting.
> 
> A shorted power supply does not power off.  It goes into current foldback limiting.   A post based in observation and wild speculation would not know what supplies did even 50 years ago.  One is supposed to learn this technology before posting.
> 
> ...


A shorted PSU stops powering the computer, therefore my use of the word off. I didn't think going further was needed (not that I knew exactly why it stopped working), just that it does, and usually turns back on after you fix the short. Didn't really think the technicalities were important. But new knowledge is new knowledge, and I always appreciate that.

Well, after doing a little digging, I see modern dimmers aren't simple rheostats anymore. I had no experience with these, however, as my last home had all rheostat style dimmers (none in my current home). There are still many dimmer switches that are still just a simple variable resistor. Was never one for dimmers, so I concede the point.

But please, show me where a UPS, power conditioner or surge protector on you computer is harmful. I want to see actual studies and tests. Without them, you are still offering nothing but speculation. Am I saying you are wrong? No. I am just saying that you need to back your statements. Flaunting intelligence and providing proof are 2 entirely different things, especially when you are going against common beliefs. You'll need more than just claims to change people's minds.

And I do know the basics. I know that it's generally electric motors that suffer damage from undervoltage. And I know it's because they can't come out of their start cycle. Beyond that, I know little.

I never claimed to be an engineer. I know the basics, and I know it's better safe than sorry for most things, thus the common held belief that surge protectors and UPSs are good things. If all of us that believe that are wrong, please show us.

I also never claimed surges are a daily occurrence. My use of a UPS is for my f@h and WCG progress to be saved in case of a power failure. I just figured power conditioning was an added benefit.

I'd also like to point out, that all claims made in this thread about psus taking out hardware were and are made in reference to sub-standard, low quality brands. AKA: Us warning people against buying low quality psus, and spending a little extra on a quality unit.

So basically, if you want to school us, give us links, provide us with reading material and info. Show us why we are wrong. Take the extra step to combat urban myths by providing evidence that we are being duped, because as it stands, your posts provide no more evidence than mine, despite the fact it appears you know much more on the subject than I do.


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## CDdude55 (Mar 9, 2010)

No need to go all in depth people, we get it, you have a degree in electronics/enginnering.Learning new things is always a good thing, but what is it you're trying to prove?, it went from something about shorting out PSU's to some shit about power conditioners and physics. Say what you got to say about the subject at hand and move on.
Westom:


> A post based in insufficient electrical knowledge.





> One need only learn simple electrical concepts and the numbers to see why that is so.





> Obvious using two simple equations from high school physics





> All recommendations when one knows without first learning simple electrical concepts





> None were provided because that post is urban myths





> Reality - those fluctuations exist only when myths are posted





> Those who know without first learning numbers and what those basic functions are will, instead, hype the 1000 watt supply


Calm down dude, no one is questioning your uber superior school degrees.
:shadedshu


----------



## westom (Mar 9, 2010)

Wile E said:


> But please, show me where a UPS, power conditioner or surge protector on you computer is harmful. I want to see actual studies and tests. Without them, you are still offering nothing but speculation.


   Explained is why all telco switching stations locate protectors as close as possible to earth ground.  And why a protector is located as much as 50 meters away from electronics.  Telco routinely do this because 100 years of knowledge demonstrates what is necessary for surge protection.

 A 1994 IEEE paper also describes what happens.  Dr Martzloff's very first conclusion describes how plug-in (point of connection) devices are harmful:
> Conclusion: 
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in
> reference voltages.  These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present
> at the point of connection of appliances.

  Long before Dr Martzloff's paper, we saw same.  Two plug-in protectors connected the surge destrctively into two powered off computer motherboards.   Incoming on AC mains.  Through protectors (bypassing protection in each power supply). Outgoing via NICs.  Through the network.  Into a third powered off computer.  Out to earth ground destructively via modem and the telephone line.  Three times explained is why adjacent protectors are not used and can contribute to appliance damage.

  Meanwhile, dimmers were using semiconductors (thyristors) since the 1960s.  If hourly or daily surges are destroying electronics, then you are replacing dimmer switches daily.  Those mytical surges do not exist despite a majority who believe otherwise.  Why are you not replacing dimmer switches and clock radios?  Because all electronics already contain protection that plug-in devices are supposed to provide.  Some of the more robust protection must already exist in a power supply. But selling a supply that is missing these functions (and still boots the computer) means higher profits even at a lower retail price 

 Informed consumers worry about the rare and destructive transient that occurs typically once every seven years.  A UPS does not even claim to protect from.  That number can vary significantly even in the same town.  Therefore informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector.  A solution that costs about $1 per protected appliance.   That makes even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. That means everything is protected including furnace, refirgerator, and bathroom GFCIs. Which device most needs protection is a surge exists?  Smoke detectors (or fire alarms).  None must fail during a surge.  The single effective solution also makes lesser transients irrelevant.

  Protection is always about where energy dissipates.  If permitted inside the building, then it will hunt for earth destructively via some appliance.  The informed consumer earthing one 'whole house' protector so that energy is not inside the building.

  US Air Force defines where protectors are best located.  Not plug-in protectors.  The US Air Force says:
> 15. Surge Protection. 
> 15.1. Entering or exiting metallic power, intrusion detection, communication antenna, and instrumentation
> lines must have surge protection sized for lightning surges to reduce transient voltages to a harmless
> level. Install the surge protection as soon as practical where the conductor enters the interior of 
> the facility. Devices commonly used for this include metal oxide varistors, gas tube arresters,
> and transzorbs.

  Effective protection means energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth.  Means protection already inside every minimally acceptable supply is not overwhelmed.   A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Therefore the effective protector is located typically 'less than 10 feet' to single point earth ground. And may cost tens or 100 times less money.


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## vipz (Mar 10, 2010)

i only mentioned that a psu must have a protection for mains fluctuations and this topic goes a long way.
generally a psu dont have protection for mains fluctuations,but only for after psu events.


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## Wile E (Mar 10, 2010)

westom said:


> Explained is why all telco switching stations locate protectors as close as possible to earth ground.  And why a protector is located as much as 50 meters away from electronics.  Telco routinely do this because 100 years of knowledge demonstrates what is necessary for surge protection.
> 
> A 1994 IEEE paper also describes what happens.  Dr Martzloff's very first conclusion describes how plug-in (point of connection) devices are harmful:
> > Conclusion:
> ...


You still haven't shown us why surge protectors and UPSs are bad, only that they can be ineffective, and you still haven't shown any evidence, only more theory. How did they prove the plug in protector bypassed the psu's internal protections? How do we know that the psu's internal protections weren't already faulty? What you are saying, while it could be 100% true, goes against the common knowledge of the masses. You need to provide more evidence to convince people of something that goes against what they were taught to believe for most of their lives. What the telcos do isn't proof.

And again, I already said I never claimed surges are a daily occurrence, so you can drop the "mythical surges" routine, it's not winning you over any supporters either.

Oh, and fyi, that dimmer I referred to earlier? From the 50's. It was in my grandmother's home. It is older than my mother, and she was born in '58.


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## westom (Mar 11, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Oh, and fyi, that dimmer I referred to earlier? From the 50's. It was in my grandmother's home. It is older than my mother, and she was born in '58.


 So you know virtually nothing about electricity. Ignorant even of a simplest device - dimmer switch.  Then why are you making recommendations?  Why are you so intentionally deceiving others with outright lies?  Why are you being so dishonest?

   Protectors adjacent to appliances can even make appliance damage easier. Telcos all over the world want protectors up to 50 meters distant from electronics - because they employ people with electrical knowledge. And for other reasons already posted.   Even wire impedance makes that obvious.  I am not going to teach basic electricity.  You were expected to learn that before posting even one recommendation.  Instead your posts include veiled insults.

  You should be apologizing for intentionally posting numerous myths.  For making claims only because those lies are popular.   Obscene myths such as mains fluctuations will destroy power supplies.  Such as that mythical excessive amperage.  Such as complete nonsense that a fuse is a surge protection device.  Such as supplies can be damaged if you do not put a load on the 3.3V and 5V rails. Such as a 1kw supply recommendation for future loads.  Such as low AC voltage can cause power supply damage. Such as a shorted power supply turns off.   All these were posted based in lies and hearsay.  Myths that confuse laymen and promote scams.  And that insult anyone who worked so hard to learn before posting.

  "No power supply must damage any motherboard or other components."  You even denied  that reality. 

 Another myth:  "A simple, and cheap surge protector protects you from spikes in voltage."  Good.  Post those manufacturer numeric specs that prove your claim.  You posted that and did not first read the spec numbers?  Why?  Oh.  I believe I already answered why.

   Then you posted another lie. "A surge protector is a smart investment. It's just another line of defense."  No it is not.  How does it absorb a surge (hundreds of thousands of joules) when only rated at hundreds of joules?  The word 'scam' applies.  It does not even claim to provide that protection in numbers.  What its 'hundreds of joules' might do is already made irrelevant by a computer's power supply. 

 The well proven and effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance.

  PSU must be designed to make power fluctuations irrelevant - posted elsewhere with the numbers. Computer (PSUs) are some of the most robust appliances in the building - posted previously with numbers.  PSU must not cause motherboard or other computer damage - as was required long before PCs even existed.  A typical UPS connects appliances directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode - no power conditioning exists except in subjective speculation.   Anything that a UPS might do for transients is already done better in the supply - which is why 270 volt spikes from a UPS are irrelevant to120 volt computers.  

  Provided was how to identify inferior power supplies even with an AM (longwave) radio.  Because too many computer assemblers have little electrical knowledge; install supplies only on irrelevant numbers such as dollars and watts.

  So that protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed, an informed consumer installs a 'whole house' protector.  Protection already in a power supply is sufficient with one protector distant from appliances and as close to earth as practical.  That was how it was done generations before computers even existed.  And completely unknown to many who would post myths without first learning how electricity works.


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm not intentionally deceiving people with outright lies, but you seem to be intentionally avoiding posting your evidence that I am wrong.

As far as "No power supply must damage any motherboard or other components.", good ones don't. Generic ones are questionable in their ability to do so, and that has been proven. A faulty power supply has damaged computer components on numerous occasions, and been documented. Just because a psu's specs call for the safeguards, doesn't mean they actually follow specs in the case of cheap power supplies, or that the protection isn't faulty.

Again, you still haven't posted anything in the way of proof. Until then, you are doing nothing more than trying to flaunt that you have more electrical knowledge than me. Whoopty do.  I never said you didn't, but I still want to see proof that surge protectors and UPS do damage. Your "you know virtually nothing about electricity" defense isn't holding much water without it.

PS: That dimmer switch in question *IS* a simple rheostat, thus the reason I thought it the norm. So, if you want to keep focusing on my stupid mistake, that's fine, but it's not winning you any arguments either.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 12, 2010)

Let me say this, we all agree to disagree

Next topic on PSU's please


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## RoutedScripter (Jan 20, 2011)

Well,  it still is very much helpful , i bouthgt 2 PCs using this help , and im buying another lower end PC for the family in the next weeks , so , PSUs are very important and are a piece you always want to buy as best , doesn't get so outdated and provides room for the usual upgrades that do need to get outdated faster.

Personally i choosed Enermax for my High end machine , i am extremely pleased , it's better than the Corsair , Enermax has an undocumented(i didn't heard of it nor seen it) that pervents the startup of the PC if the PSU isn't ready up charged yet. Plus , it flushes all electricity out when you shut down the pc and plug out , the corsair HX series has some electricity left which if you turn it on it flashes a bit , leds and fans make a momentairly spin then fade out.

Ofcourse i have enermax series from 2008  , how much is it better now! i wonder


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## RoutedScripter (Jan 20, 2011)

Well yeah i see , the guys that made the thread isn't updating .... LIKE 3 YEARS 

... okay , who's gonna make a new one , and some real effort.  

There should be a thread for random people to say if they have the PSU the OP will ask , so , one guy wouldn't be able to review like 50 PSUs unless you work in the industry.


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## panchoman (Jan 20, 2011)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Well yeah i see , the guys that made the thread isn't updating .... LIKE 3 YEARS
> 
> ... okay , who's gonna make a new one , and some real effort.
> 
> There should be a thread for random people to say if they have the PSU the OP will ask , so , one guy wouldn't be able to review like 50 PSUs unless you work in the industry.



you're right.... 

this thread is long overdue for a refresh.. i've just got so much else going on in my life =/ 
if anyone else would like to help out, PLEASE, let me know...


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## RoutedScripter (Jan 20, 2011)

panchoman said:


> you're right....
> 
> this thread is long overdue for a refresh.. i've just got so much else going on in my life =/
> if anyone else would like to help out, PLEASE, let me know...



Naturally ,  the question is should we upgrade on this one or make a whole new revamp ?

And that was fast , that was a fast reply , that's somewhat weird , like you heard my arrival from the stars , anyways i thought the OP wasn't here anymore so , that's cool , now it's better to upgrade on this thread , but someone else's going to do the work , Wile E ? Hmm ?


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## panchoman (Jan 20, 2011)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Naturally ,  the question is should we upgrade on this one or make a whole new revamp ?
> 
> And that was fast , that was a fast reply , that's somewhat weird , like you heard my arrival from the stars , anyways i thought the OP wasn't here anymore so , that's cool , now it's better to upgrade on this thread , but someone else's going to do the work , Wile E ? Hmm ?



i just happend to be on tpu... i disappeared for like a year.. but i've been coming back more and more now, as my life clears up a bit  

one of the things i've been thinking off is to move the brand/oem listings over to the tpu wiki, where it can be updated by all members and better maintained... and then upgrade and expand on the text to make this a complete go to guide.. 

what do you think?


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## cdawall (Jan 20, 2011)

i thought i updated one of these lists...if you can find mine somewhere i have a bunch of new brands on it...

edit found it

 PSU buyers guide


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## panchoman (Jan 21, 2011)

cdawall said:


> i thought i updated one of these lists...if you can find mine somewhere i have a bunch of new brands on it...
> 
> edit found it
> 
> PSU buyers guide



oh thats awesome.. would you like me to merge everything, and make you co-author?


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## cdawall (Jan 21, 2011)

panchoman said:


> oh thats awesome.. would you like me to merge everything, and make you co-author?



works for me i still need to do some updating on it i will shoot you a pm eventually with new info in it


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## panchoman (Jan 21, 2011)

cdawall said:


> works for me i still need to do some updating on it i will shoot you a pm eventually with new info in it



awesome, just awesome. untill then, i'll be working more on the textual part of things.. 

thanks again man!


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## RoutedScripter (Jan 26, 2011)

Be sure to note about Corsair PSUs , it's no longer a quality brand for some PSUs , as it uses a bad OEM , the low end line probably was replaced with another OEM.


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## Frick (Jan 26, 2011)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Be sure to note about Corsair PSUs , it's no longer a quality brand for some PSUs , as it uses a bad OEM , the low end line probably was replaced with another OEM.



You mean the Builder series? JonnyGURU revied the 430W one and he recommended it.


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

When I bought  a CoolerMaster Elite 360 case i got a 350w psu in it. Just replaced it with my modded one but tested this little sucker and here's the stock specs.

Coolermaster OEM TM-350-PSMR 

3.3V=14A 
5V=14A 
12V=10A 
-5V=0.5A 
-12V=0.5A 
-5Vsb=2A 
Max. Output	350W

With a digital multimeter of 20 amps maximum i was able to calculate the this psu can in fact get for 1 min a charge of 19.6 amps on the +5V line. Ok the thinny wires were getting hot but I'M pretty sure if they had put bigger wires in it then it could have been able to push more power. 

Just a test I made but i'm sure if some of you got this little one in your CM case then you could use it without problems now. Not bad for a 9.99$ psu sold brand new.

EDIT: This test was made by sucking the 19.6 amps on a single red wires from a molex plug.


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## _JP_ (Jan 26, 2011)

Frick said:


> You mean the Builder series? JonnyGURU revied the 430W one and he recommended it.


You're referring to the CX series. I think RuskiSnajper is referring to the GS series. Haven't seen any review on those. Of course, for a little more there's always the VX and TX series.


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## panchoman (Jan 26, 2011)

RuskiSnajper said:


> Be sure to note about Corsair PSUs , it's no longer a quality brand for some PSUs , as it uses a bad OEM , the low end line probably was replaced with another OEM.





MohawkAngel said:


> When I bought  a CoolerMaster Elite 360 case i got a 350w psu in it. Just replaced it with my modded one but tested this little sucker and here's the stock specs.
> 
> Coolermaster OEM TM-350-PSMR
> 
> ...




To both of you guys, do you know who the OEM is? if you've got a pic of the psu (or the psu), there is a UL code on the sticker, under a backwards R with a u (see the first post).. i can use that UL code to identify who the manufacturer is... 

i've been hearing a lot about these new corsair psu's, i need to dig some more on this..


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## panchoman (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> When I bought  a CoolerMaster Elite 360 case i got a 350w psu in it. Just replaced it with my modded one but tested this little sucker and here's the stock specs.
> 
> Coolermaster OEM TM-350-PSMR
> 
> ...



just a quick question.. is it max output 250 w or 350w? the specs only get you 254.7 W ...


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

panchoman said:


> To both of you guys, do you know who the OEM is? if you've got a pic of the psu (or the psu), there is a UL code on the sticker, under a backwards R with a u (see the first post).. i can use that UL code to identify who the manufacturer is...
> 
> i've been hearing a lot about these new corsair psu's, i need to dig some more on this..



Not even a UL code on it man! It's brand new and tried to see also inside by opening it but nothing much about them. Seriouly its written something like Authorized by Cooler Master. So i suppose its their Taiwan branch who are making it. For higher grade psu of Cooler master even for cheaper eXtreme Power plus 500W its Seventeam who are making them.

EDIT: Made a mistake in model name its TM-350-PMSR


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## panchoman (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> Not even a UL code on it man! It's brand new and tried to see also inside by opening it but nothing much about them. Seriouly its written something like Authorized by Cooler Master. So i suppose its their Taiwan branch who are making it. For higher grade psu of Cooler master even for cheaper eXtreme Power plus 500W its Seventeam who are making them.



My guess it's probably hipro or acbel making it, as they make their other shitty lower power ones, and yeah seventeam makes their higher wattage ones.. 

i just went on newegg and found that psu, can't seem to find the ul either,  which i find to be rather shocking.. either they neglected to put the cert on the psu, which most companies don't, or it's not certified.. which is rather troubling.. cooler master also doesn't retail these units, so it seems like they are literally slipping pieces of shit not worth anything into their cases to make them seem better.. also the psu label is troubling.. the psu doesn't have any pfc, and the label only indicates the psu is capable of 250w... the 350w number they are using is the _*MAXIMUM*_ the psu can support... meaning if you push 350w through the psu.. it will die.. something you self-confirmed really, with the multimeter testing and seeing that the wires cannot support more than the amps on the label, and the amps on the label only allow up to 254 watts..

isn't it interesting how cooler master didn't even put their name on the psu?


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

MAX output 350watts. It is written +12v @ +10amps So from what I've read on another place this psu is able to go over the 10amps barrier thats why it gives only 254.7w without counting the extra play over the 10amps. Al;so yes it was over the barrier because on the label its written 14amps on +5v but i went at 19.6amps on the 5v. Of course the wire wont withstand the 19.6amps because normally you share the amps between many wires and I sucked all the 19.6amps on a small gauge wire made for the 14 amps.


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## panchoman (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> Not even a UL code on it man! It's brand new and tried to see also inside by opening it but nothing much about them. Seriouly its written something like Authorized by Cooler Master. So i suppose its their Taiwan branch who are making it. For higher grade psu of Cooler master even for cheaper eXtreme Power plus 500W its Seventeam who are making them.
> 
> EDIT: Made a mistake in model name its TM-350-PMSR
> 
> http://clearancezone.directron.us/images/item_images/1249681256KJNocTbqY5XK.jpg





MohawkAngel said:


> MAX output 350watts. It is written +12v @ +10amps So from what I've read on another place this psu is able to go over the 10amps barrier thats why it gives only 254.7w without counting the extra play over the 10amps. Al;so yes it was over the barrier because on the label its written 14amps on +5v but i went at 19.6amps on the 5v. Of course the wire wont withstand the 19.6amps because normally you share the amps between many wires and I sucked all the 19.6amps on a small gauge wire made for the 14 amps.



but you're contradicting yourself aren't you.  you're saying that the psu can go over, but the wires can't handle them , then whats the point? also, if you're marketing a psu, and it can perform better, than wouldn't you put that? i bet if you had the 12v and 5v under load, you would have some more concrete results.. interested in seeing what you get..


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

What you dont seems to know is that the amperage is divided between wires not passing all in the same. If your system suck all the wattage of the 12v for example it will never suck it on one single wire but in all the yellow wires thats why the wires stand the current. Just take the exemple of a video card with 8 pins connectors...maybe 100watts ok but splitted in many wires if you pass all the amps in one single wire it would take you automotive grade wires in the psu and it means big wirres too big for a computer. 

When i tested it on a single wire it went over but the wire became so hot that the plastic around was melting almost and smell burning. If i did the same test on more wires then of course the wires would be able to withstand the 19.6 amps without overheating


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## panchoman (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> What you dont seems to know is that the amperage is divided between wires not passing all in the same. If your system suck all the wattage of the 12v for example it will never suck it on one single wire but in all the yellow wires thats why the wires stand the current. Just take the exemple of a video card with 8 pins connectors...maybe 100watts ok but splitted in many wires if you pass all the amps in one single wire it would take you automotive grade wires in the psu and it means big wirres too big for a computer.
> 
> When i tested it on a single wire it went over but the wire became so hot that the plastic around was melting almost and smell burning. If i did the same test on more wires then of course the wires would be able to withstand the 19.6 amps without overheating



true true..forgot that you only tested on a single wire...


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

One thing I can add afterward is that the psu don't have PFC but like cheaper CoolerMaster. eXtreme Power 500w does not have. But at least the fan is almost dead silent and rpm goes up as demand rise. So for a small all onboard htpc its enough.


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## cdawall (Jan 26, 2011)

From what I was reading with corsair they are using cwt for the low end stuff same as thermaltake...not exactly bad bud not exactly seasonic either.


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## westom (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> EDIT: This test was made by sucking the 19.6 amps on a single red wires from a molex plug.


  Maximum current of that Molex contact is only 6 amps.  That would explain the heat and low readings.


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

westom said:


> Maximum current of that Molex contact is only 6 amps.  That would explain the heat and low readings.



The heat yes but its not low reading the maximum is supposed to be 14amps on the +5v line and I pushed it to 19.6amps !!!


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## westom (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> The heat yes but its not low reading the maximum is supposed to be 14amps on the +5v line and I pushed it to 19.6amps !!!


  Of course.  But what was the current when the voltage remained well in spec?  Does not matter how much current it can output if the voltage during that current is less than 4.87 VDC (on the meter).

  A relevant term is "foldback current limiting".

  Normal and necessary for any acceptable supply is to output more current than the spec number.  Why so many supplies that are insufficient still boot computers.  Also why a defective supply can also boot a computer.  And why that one who thinks a supply is good only because the computer boots is only deceiving himself.  You were using the meter. What informed computer techs always use before knowing. 

  But again, the point.  That molex connector (and therefore associated wire) is only for 6 amps which explains tremendous heat.


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

I use multimeter since im 13 yo and im now 30. Its my toy I love using it as soon as I can lol Of course I dont use the same that i used at 13 but anyway i'm loving it  I not tested the voltage while testing current because i had only one tester and at same time if i had another one i could have test the voltage drop at another molex that is still at room temps and the voltage at the overheating plug to see how much voltage the resistance due to heat made me loss.


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## westom (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> I use multimeter since im 13 yo and im now 30. Its my toy I love using it as soon as I can lol


  Actual operation of each output is best defined by a V-I (voltage verses current) curve.  In the attached figure, a black line represents an ideal power supply.  Voltage stays constant until current reaches maximum.  Then current remains constant for a falling voltage.  The green line is a more realistic curve when a power supply is also limited by power.  And finally, the red line is how we really want a power supply to perform.

  To understand V-I characteristics of any supply is best accomplished with two multimeters so that one can read voltage while another reads current. Click on this image to better view it.


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

westom said:


> Actual operation of each output is best defined by a V-I (voltage verses current) curve.  In the attached figure, a black line represents an ideal power supply.  Voltage stays constant until current reaches maximum.  Then current remains constant for a falling voltage.  The green line is a more realistic curve when a power supply is also limited by power.  And finally, the red line is how we really want a power supply to perform.
> 
> To understand V-I characteristics of any supply is best accomplished with two multimeters so that one can read voltage while another reads current. Click on this image to better view it.



It is OK I told you already so come on with explanations. I told ya I understand what it means and how it works. I'm used to work in electric and electronic and if it become more difficult I just ask to my brother who's an engineer at Research and Development  department for Honeywell Electronics. I have everything I need as advice when I need to but if you want to start a How-To thread feel free to od it it's always helpful for people who don't have the knowledge that I have.


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

So Panchoman are you gonna write a complaint to the UL regulation agency to tell them that cooler master are selling psu's without UL code?


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## cdawall (Jan 26, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> So Panchoman are you gonna write a complaint to the UL regulation agency to tell them that cooler master are selling psu's without UL code?



they dont have to have a ul code to be sold it is up to you to purchase a ul listed powersupply


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 26, 2011)

Strange because I tought it was the norm and law to have the UL code for fire safety. Here in Quebec if something electrical don't have the UL code it's removed from shelves and sent back to supplier.


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## westom (Jan 27, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> It is OK I told you already so come on with explanations. I told ya I understand what it means and how it works. .


  Why are you being emotional?  My posts agree with and reinforce what you have posted.  And provide facts because everything I post is for everyone - a number far larger than just you.

  I don't care if you are world's premier expert on all electronics.  I am still going to post information because you are only one of maybe a thousand readers.

  Your emotions puzzle me.  Suggest you do not grasp the relevance of what was posted.  Or think everything here is posted only for you.  Anyone who would rather be an informed consumer should view that previously posted V-I graph.

 UL is not required for anything.  UL is an information source similar to what Consumer Reports and Energy Star also do.  No power supply needs a UL (or CSA) listing.  Because safety of any computer (and meeting all other standards) is 100% on the assembler. UL says nothing about a power supply even working properly. 

 Only an assembler is responsible for what is inside a supply that he selects.  Explains why inferior supplies are so easily dumped in this market.  Supply knowledge also means one knows those V-I curves.

  A more reasonable response would be to agree - to encourage others to also become informed.


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## cdawall (Jan 27, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> Strange because I tought it was the norm and law to have the UL code for fire safety. Here in Quebec if something electrical don't have the UL code it's removed from shelves and sent back to supplier.



all of the cheapy PSU's are none UL listed shit jonny guru has tested a couple dozen non-UL PSU's


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 27, 2011)

cdawall said:


> all of the cheapy PSU's are none UL listed shit jonny guru has tested a couple dozen non-UL PSU's



I'll have to take a look then because like I told ya seeing them around here is not the norm.  If you have a link or two to the guru site ill go take a look faster.


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## erixx (Jan 30, 2011)

What do you guys think of those PEAKS? (Nearly 15V!!!!)

My PSU is a Corsair HX750. 

As you can see, the pic is from a stress test. And after the voltage peak, the processor hung for a sec. I was browsing TPU and the broser also frooze for a sec.

Mamma mia, never thought I would see this! Is this very bad?

Thx!


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## cdawall (Jan 30, 2011)

erixx said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/110130/peak.png
> 
> What do you guys think of those PEAKS? (Nearly 15V!!!!)
> 
> ...



The is voltage reg on the corsairs that would shut the psu off if it was @15v the dumb monitor program is wrong. Get a meter out and check it yourself and it will show exactly that


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## erixx (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks CDAWALL, but I have never seen that peak before and I doubt that I will see it again, ever, it is totally random. (I use Aida/Everest since years and never came across such a peak.) But I am curious about the reason and the meaning of it.


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## westom (Jan 30, 2011)

erixx said:


> What do you guys think of those PEAKS? (Nearly 15V!!!!)


  Important facts are missing. Including what hardware made those measurements, horizontal and vertical resolutions, and the horizontal time scale.

  Speculating only from what is provided, I would start with a defective or problematic ground for that measuring hardware.  A suspicion based in what voltages vary and by how much.  If those voltage spikes existed, functions inside a power supply would have cut off power to each voltage (3.3, 5, and 12). Then other functions would have locked out the CPU and other motherboard functions.  Obviously those safety features never triggered.  

  Numbers make no sense.  So questions start by learning why measurement hardware has a fault.

  Appreciate how much information was in those numbers.  Most would not realize how much information was contained.


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## westom (Jan 30, 2011)

erixx said:


> I use Aida/Everest ...


  That is software?  Software never measures voltages. Software only reads data provided by hardware.  Noted in the previous post, address how hardware measures.  Not how software translated those numbers into a human readable form.


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## erixx (Jan 30, 2011)

Hardware: the mobo only
Resolution, vert and horizontal: no idea
Time scale: no idea, but the peak was '1 unit' of update time= 3 sec max


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## cdawall (Jan 30, 2011)

Well if they were peaking around 15v you would be seeing fried parts


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## westom (Jan 30, 2011)

erixx said:


> Hardware: the mobo only


OK. Now let's discuss how computers work.  That motherboard contains a large plate of copper end to end across the board.  Voltage across that 'plane' can vary significantly.  Many assume voltage well be the same zero volts everywhere on that ground plane.  It is not.  That is also why ceramic bypass capacitors are scattered across the motherboard.  And why more reliable computers connect the motherboard to the chassis at only one point.

   And to calibrate hardware on that motherboard.  The motherboard monitor is just that.  A monitor.  Apparently it detected some difference on the motherboard (up to less than 3 volts) ground plane that probably should not exist.  And that only occurs when certain semiconductors suddenly demand power.

  Microsecond pulses could be continous.  But captured rarely by a motherboard monitor only being read by software on a 3 second resolution.  An example of not only seeing something - also know the whats and whys.

  As another so accurately posted, get a multimeter to make useful measurements.   And welcome to the #1 reason why we fix things.  To learn.


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## westom (Jan 30, 2011)

cdawall said:


> Well if they were peaking around 15v you would be seeing fried parts


  15 volts on 12 volt parts will not harm them.  7 volts also does not harm 5 volt parts.  But safety functions required in a supply (and sometimes missing on supplies selling on price) must keep voltages lower.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 30, 2011)

westom said:


> 15 volts on 12 volt parts will not harm them. 7 volts also does not harm 5 volt parts. But safety functions required in a supply (and sometimes missing on supplies selling on price) must keep voltages lower.



+1   My PSU will cut output when 15,6V is on 12V; 7V is on 5V and 4.5V is on 3V rail. But under normal operation it regulates voltage +3/-3% on all rails. It should be similar on all other PSU's, varying only percentage and voltage a little. I know that on some PSU's they have 5% regulation.


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## erixx (Jan 30, 2011)

I have a hard time to understand, but appreciate the information! Stil don't know 'what has happened' and if I have to do something. (I don't have know-how of multimeters, sorry)


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## erixx (Jan 30, 2011)

AND.... Why did the processor suddenly go from 100% to 0% usage at the same time? was it a 'nearly fry'? Or just a 'hardware fart'?


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## westom (Jan 31, 2011)

erixx said:


> I have a hard time to understand, but appreciate the information! Stil don't know 'what has happened' and if I have to do something. (I don't have know-how of multimeter, sorry)


  Then you have no business touching an Ipad or mobile phone.  Those are far too complex and more dangerous.  No I am not facetious.  Your reasons are based only in fear.  Multimeters are sold in stores that also sell hammers. Even sold in K-mart - because it is that complex.  A good hammer is more expensive and often more dangerous.  If you never swung a hammer, then a hammer is far harder to use.  Not kidding.   Get a meter without fear.

  Processor did not go to zero at the time of that spike.  It occurred later.  Unknown and relevant is how much later.


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 31, 2011)

Monitoring software tends to have glitches. Asus PC probe sometimes showed weird things on my PC too (for a few secs). But I will try Aida 64 to see what it shows. What version are you using?
Lag could have been because of CPU @ 100% and since there is no time on horizontal axis, I can't tell if voltage spike and CPU throttle happened at the same time at all.

*edit* Posted almost the same as westom, only I think that because of no time on axis, there is no way to tell what was first - Spike or CPU throttle, altough it looks like spike was first if we assume that software updates all tables simultaneously.

*edit2* I am testing with the same program now, and It's lagging when I write Lower table goes much faster than higher one (about 4.5 times faster).


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## cdawall (Jan 31, 2011)

westom said:


> 15 volts on 12 volt parts will not harm them.  7 volts also does not harm 5 volt parts.  But safety functions required in a supply (and sometimes missing on supplies selling on price) must keep voltages lower.



BS it will blow parts i have seen it happen. No it wont kill something like a fan or a HDD even an ODD however when you get into more sensitive stuff like a video card or motherboard and you jump the voltage 25% you will see things fail. you cannot make a blanket saying this will not effect that. thing is UL says everything will be regulated within 15% there is a reason for that. The UL folks didn't go well this seem like a good number and use that.



Swamp Monster said:


> +1   My PSU will cut output when 15,6V is on 12V; 7V is on 5V and 4.5V is on 3V rail. But under normal operation it regulates voltage +3/-3% on all rails. It should be similar on all other PSU's, varying only percentage and voltage a little. I know that on some PSU's they have 5% regulation.




+1 what that i am correct obviously someone thinks 15v is bad having yours cut just above it


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 31, 2011)

cdawall said:


> 1 what that i am correct obviously someone thinks 15v is bad having yours cut just above it



I think what misses in my post is "for short periods of time". I think 15V on 12V rail is bad too, just that components "should" last for short periods of time, like in OP's case. Then we are all right, because increased voltage shortens life of components, and it depends on components and how electronics is designed.


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## cdawall (Jan 31, 2011)

Swamp Monster said:


> I think what misses in my post is "for short periods of time". I think 15V on 12V rail is bad too, just that components "should" last for short periods of time, like in OP's case. Then we are all right, because increased voltage shortens life of components, and it depends on components and how electronics is designed.



even for short bursts it is bad that is why it is out of spec for UL if it was "OK" then it would not be out of spec.


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2011)

westom said:


> 15 volts on 12 volt parts will not harm them.  7 volts also does not harm 5 volt parts.  But safety functions required in a supply (and sometimes missing on supplies selling on price) must keep voltages lower.



15V will destroy half the parts in a PC. i've seen one go up in smoke at 13V. wiring started melting, and pretty much everything but the fans died that was connected at the time.


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## erixx (Jan 31, 2011)

So if I am running this PC as if nothing happened I can call me a lucky boy? Or does the hypothesis that Aida64 is just fooling me still standing? ...


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2011)

erixx said:


> So if I am running this PC as if nothing happened I can call me a lucky boy? Or does the hypothesis that Aida64 is just fooling me still standing? ...



quite likely.

some peoples arrogant comments aside, software readings are worthless. if you don't test it with a multimeter you'll never know for sure what the real readings are.


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## erixx (Jan 31, 2011)

I understand Mussels, and yes. I have seen extremely erratic fan speed readings by software, so why not wrong voltages? I can only repeat this: I never saw that voltages before and I doubt I will see them again. They have always been okay and are okay.


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## westom (Jan 31, 2011)

erixx said:


> II can only repeat this: I never saw that voltages before and I doubt I will see them again. They have always been okay and are okay.


 Routine is for a defective power supply to still boot a computer.  If only assuming, well, many see a computer boot.  Then 'assume' it is OK when problems exist.  Problems morph into hard failures later.  

  No good answer exists without numbers from a meter. A tool used even by early teenage science student and K-mart shoppers.  Explained is why hardware can report that less than 15 volts when no such voltage spike exists.  Explained is why voltage spike can be more routine.  And your software only reports it rarely.  Just of few of many reasons why you cannot make that conclusion.  Reasons that say you have no idea, yet, what your machine is doing.

  It is your decision to either have no idea of that machine's integrity and not care.  Or to know.

  That motherboard hardware is a monitor. Once calibrated with the meter, then you can set it to alarm on problems.  Problems that exist but are not yet severe enough to crash a computer.  Problems that can be averted before it causes data or other losses.  Monitor is for identifying the problem even months before it crashes a computer.

  The monitor may also report that failure with greater frequency months later.  Providing you time to learn and later avert a problem in advance.  Too many possiblities exist to discuss here.  But another reason to setup that monitor function.


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## cdawall (Jan 31, 2011)

westom said:


> Routine is for a defective power supply to still boot a computer.  If only assuming, well, many see a computer boot.  Then 'assume' it is OK when problems exist.  Problems morph into hard failures later.
> 
> No good answer exists without numbers from a meter. A tool used even by early teenage science student and K-mart shoppers.  Explained is why hardware can report that less than 15 volts when no such voltage spike exists.  Explained is why voltage spike can be more routine.  And your software only reports it rarely.  Just of few of many reasons why you cannot make that conclusion.  Reasons that say you have no idea, yet, what your machine is doing.
> 
> ...



you do understand what that monitor is correct? it is a PC chip on a motherboard one known to be incorrect by everyone on these forums. right this very second the one on my DFI UT nf3 says my 12v rail is running at 11.7 the -12 @ -6.2 and -5@ -11.14 PSU is fine checked it with a meter board is fine checked it with a meter turns out its the stupid monitoring chip like everyone else has that still does not work


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## westom (Feb 1, 2011)

cdawall said:


> you do understand what that monitor is correct? it is a PC chip on a motherboard one known to be incorrect by everyone on these forums.


  Therefore one starts with a multimeter to calibrate those numbers.  Reposting what was posted, 
> Once calibrated with the meter, then you can set it to alarm on problems.


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## cdawall (Feb 1, 2011)

westom said:


> Therefore one starts with a multimeter to calibrate those numbers.  Reposting what was posted,
> > Once calibrated with the meter, then you can set it to alarm on problems.



How do you calibrate when they don't even read the correct rail or for that matter what about when they read nothing


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## westom (Feb 1, 2011)

cdawall said:


> How do you calibrate when they don't even read the correct rail or for that matter what about when they read nothing


  What is 'they'?

  Read numbers from the multimeter.  Post multimeter them and monitor numbers.  Then have an answer.  I don't understand what your question is, in part, because it is subjective. More specifically, what is 'they'?  A better answer would have been possible if specific numbers were provided.  I don't understand what you are asking.


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## cdawall (Feb 2, 2011)

westom said:


> What is 'they'?
> 
> Read numbers from the multimeter.  Post multimeter them and monitor numbers.  Then have an answer.  I don't understand what your question is, in part, because it is subjective. More specifically, what is 'they'?  A better answer would have been possible if specific numbers were provided.  I don't understand what you are asking.



They meaning programs how do you correctly calibrate something when it is never going to be correct just because you set a baseline doesn't mean the rest will be correct. Ie meter says 12v set program to say 12v doesn't mean 12.5v is 12.5v


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## westom (Feb 2, 2011)

cdawall said:


> Ie meter says 12v set program to say 12v doesn't mean 12.5v is 12.5v


Multimeter says 12 volts.  Monitor hardware measures 12.5 volts.  (program only translates what monitor hardware reads into human readable numbers.  Program does not measure anything.)  Now you know 12.5 volts displayed by the program is really 12 volts in hardware.  Measurement hardware on a motherboard is typically cheap - explains its poor calibration.

  Set an alarm signal at 0.25 volts higher.


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## cdawall (Feb 2, 2011)

westom said:


> Multimeter says 12 volts.  Monitor hardware measures 12.5 volts.  (program only translates what monitor hardware reads into human readable numbers.  Program does not measure anything.)  Now you know 12.5 volts displayed by the program is really 12 volts in hardware.  Measurement hardware on a motherboard is typically cheap - explains its poor calibration.
> 
> Set an alarm signal at 0.25 volts higher.



no i am saying just because you get the initial setting IE multimeter says 12v program reads 12.5 off of the hardware lets say this is idle. now there is a load on the system so the multi now reads 11.75v but the program reads 12.4v off of the hardware how do you make up for that.

or better yet you set your dumb useless alarm to .25 higher PSU above bites the bullet and now has a 14v rail but the hardware still only reads 12.65v boom shits gone hardware didn't read high enough for an alarm


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## Mussels (Feb 2, 2011)

westom said:


> Multimeter says 12 volts.  Monitor hardware measures 12.5 volts.  (program only translates what monitor hardware reads into human readable numbers.  Program does not measure anything.)  Now you know 12.5 volts displayed by the program is really 12 volts in hardware.  Measurement hardware on a motherboard is typically cheap - explains its poor calibration.
> 
> Set an alarm signal at 0.25 volts higher.



it doesnt work that way. they arent an accurate reading thats miscalibrated, they're an inaccurate reading, period.

you could drop from 12V to 11V, and the readings might only change from 12.5v to 12.1v


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## cdawall (Feb 2, 2011)

Mussels said:


> it doesnt work that way. they arent an accurate reading thats miscalibrated, they're an inaccurate reading, period.
> 
> you could drop from 12V to 11V, and the readings might only change from 12.5v to 12.1v



thats a much simpler version of what i was trying to say


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## westom (Feb 2, 2011)

cdawall said:


> thats a much simpler version of what i was trying to say


Appreciate how these things measure.  The A/D converter does not read 12 volts.  A set of resistors convert 12 volts to something below maybe 2.4 volts.  So how accurate are those resistors?  Well 5% resistors are cheap.  0.1% resistors are extremely expensive. You will never know how inaccurate that voltage divider is until you measure it.   If the 12 volts drops to 11, then the A/D converter may see 2.1 volts drop to  1.92.  And will report the change accordingly.  Your job is to recalibrate for electronic components that are fixed at wrong values.  That requires a three digit multimeter.

  If voltage drops from 12 to 11, then a monitor reading 12.5 volts (because the A/D converter sees 2.1) will drop to about 11.5 (because the A/D converter sees 1.92).


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## cdawall (Feb 2, 2011)

westom said:


> Appreciate how these things measure.  The A/D converter does not read 12 volts.  A set of resistors convert 12 volts to something below maybe 2.4 volts.  So how accurate are those resistors?  Well 5% resistors are cheap.  0.1% resistors are extremely expensive. You will never know how inaccurate that voltage divider is until you measure it.   If the 12 volts drops to 11, then the A/D converter may see 2.1 volts drop to  1.92.  And will report the change accordingly.  Your job is to recalibrate for electronic components that are fixed at wrong values.  That requires a three digit multimeter.
> 
> If voltage drops from 12 to 11, then a monitor reading 12.5 volts (because the A/D converter sees 2.1) will drop to about 11.5 (because the A/D converter sees 1.92).



so how do you know joe-china manufacturer actually set the biased the chips so that they correctly read the drop from 12-11 volts. oh and you are still completely wrong about how a ADC works its going to take 12v and turn it into a series of 1's and 0's you know the things a computer reads maybe you should appreciate how these things work. this is my job i deal with these and gates all day long

you know what i don't know why i am arguing this you are just not getting it these chips are useless i have never ever seen a BIOS correctly monitor anything voltage rated all the way down to core voltage of the CPU.


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## Mussels (Feb 2, 2011)

westom: you can use logic and theory all you want, we actually know from experience that these sensors are worthless. you cannot calibrate them to be accurate. its been this way since the sensors first started getting used in motherboards, and its likely going to be this way forever.


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## erixx (Feb 2, 2011)

And then we have motherboards with direct measuring points for multimeters (3 or 4 high end boards per chipset).

Now back to the real world: 
1) instead of working or gaming do we have to watch a multimeter, just in case? no..please!!!!!
2) so I take the hassle to do the multimeter part, let's say, once: what benefit do I get?
3) can we avoid funky voltages? not really
4) can we enjoy a 'smart' monitoring? apparently it's all lies, lies, lies, so why worry? just keep your backups up to date...

PD: I am imaging a The Simpsons scenary where you buy a hardware part, apply the multimeter at home, see a weird voltage, you return it, they give you another, then you use the multimeter again, you return it, and so on, again, and again.... untill the shop doesn't let you enter hahahahaa


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## Mussels (Feb 2, 2011)

1. you do it the same reason you run benchmarks or do stress tests. to know how your system is really running. Do you rely on the guages in your car instead of taking it to a mechanic to be serviced?

2. you know what the voltages are. if your 12V rail droops a massive amount under load, you know to replace it BEFORE it dies and takes your hardware with it. its the kind thing you only test once, and after that only when you have problems.

3. yes. by replacing your PSU.

4. yeah most smart monitoring/automated warning systems are absolute shit. thats why you test it manually when you first setup the system for a baseline, and again when you have problems.

as for the PD: i've seen people do that. buying generic $20 PSU's that contiually fail after hours/days in high powered systems.


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## Swamp Monster (Feb 2, 2011)

erixx said:


> Now back to the real world:
> 1) instead of working or gaming do we have to watch a multimeter, just in case? no..please!!!!!
> 2) so I take the hassle to do the multimeter part, let's say, once: what benefit do I get?
> 3) can we avoid funky voltages? not really
> 4) can we enjoy a 'smart' monitoring? apparently it's all lies, lies, lies, so why worry? just keep your backups up to date...



1) If you want to see if similar voltage spike exists in real life, then you need to watch it closely for a long time to see if it happens or not.
Note that you might not see the spike with digital multimeter even if it exists, if it happens fast. With analog multimeter chances are better, but you really need to watch all the time, because you can easily miss it if you look away for a second. Better to use oscilloscope here, but that is in different price category.

2)If you connect a multimeter once and do a few tests - gaming, other stress tests, you will see how voltages changes with load. Then you will know how good or bad voltage readings are and if you need to worry about them or not.

3) if funky voltages exists, then you can take it back to the store.

4) It's not that simple. Monitoring depends on programs too. For example HWmonitor reads 10V on 12V rail, but Aida64 reads 12.096V. Generally if readings are wrong, then they are really wrong. If you find a program that reads monitoring chip's data right, then I don't see problem here. Of course it can be few mV off the real life, but it doesn't make it completely useless. <This is only my opinion, but on my PC I don't see monitoring chip to be completely wrong, only programs that reads data from it.


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## westom (Feb 2, 2011)

erixx said:


> Now back to the real world:
> 1) instead of working or gaming do we have to watch a multimeter, just in case? no..please!!!!!
> 2) so I take the hassle to do the multimeter part, let's say, once: what benefit do I get?
> 3) can we avoid funky voltages? not really


 Once a monitor is calibrated, then the monitor can alarm for voltages that still keep the computer working but are unacceptable.  That are typically a precursor to future failures.  And short occur rarely.  

  A monitor typically does not report useful information voltages until voltages are first defined by a three digit multimeter.  Only the few who actually do this stuff (ie posted datasheets) would understand that.

  Most voltage problems that cause crashes, maybe once a day or less frequently, are actually happening constantly. Problem is constant.  Resulting crashes are intermittent.  Therefore a multimeter will identify the problem at any time. 

  Again, a computer can still boot and work fine when voltages are defective. A defective power supply can still boot and run a computer.  Crashes may be intermittent.  Reason for those intermittent crashes exist constantly.  Only a multimeter would identify that problem before it causes a future crash or other failure. 

  You don't monitor anything constantly. Take a meter reading today to see why intermittent crashes were happening yesterday.  Funky voltages are that easily identified and eliminated.  You are not having a spike once every three days.  You would be having a problem, constantly, that causes a crash maybe once every three days.

  A monitor simply make possible discovering a funky voltage sooner.  Swamp Monster better defines  reality and how voltages work (ie under changing load).

  Better techs install a new supply, maximize the computer load, then measure those supply voltages withy a multimeter.  How to identify a defective new supply long before it causes computer crashes or the warranty expires.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 2, 2011)

westom said:


> Only a multimeter would identify that problem before it causes a future crash or other failure.


An oscilloscope would be far more effective.  Defective/cheap power supplies often have higher ripple, which won't be easily detected with a multimeter.

During load it is normal for the 12V rail to drop a small amount and ripple increases.  Higher ripple under larger loads will not be easily observable with a multimeter but can still result in system instability and/or component damage.


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## cdawall (Feb 2, 2011)

westom said:


> Once a monitor is calibrated, then the monitor can alarm for voltages that still keep the computer working but are unacceptable.  That are typically a precursor to future failures.  And short occur rarely.
> 
> A monitor typically does not report useful information voltages until voltages are first defined by a three digit multimeter.  Only the few who actually do this stuff (ie posted datasheets) would understand that.
> 
> ...



why do you continue to argue this i am going to post this at point blank and if you cannot understand it i would prefer you PM me instead of ruining a perfectly good PSU guide thread with nonsense.

There is no way to properly tune *ANY* windows, linux or mac based program to *PROPERLY* read *ANY* chip on _*ANY*_ motherboard. *YOU* do not even properly understand how an ADC works in a nutshell input is an *ANALOG* voltage and output is a *DIGITAL* "1" or "0" ie a series of highs and lows. not some rectified voltage like you posted earlier. On top of that there is *NO* multimeter that can actually read constant dips and spikes i don't card if it s a 50 decimal. The only proper way to test *ANY* powersupply would be using an Oscilloscope along with a load tester. There is no computer hardware there is no mystically "fixing" some program there is a physical hardware based oscilloscope and something to properly load a powersupply.

THE END NO MORE ARGUEMENT!


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## westom (Feb 2, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> An oscilloscope would be far more effective.  ...  Higher ripple under larger loads will not be easily observable with a multimeter but can still result in system instability and/or component damage.



Yes, when designing power supplies, then test equipment is $thousands.  And most every layman could not use it.  But any layman, even a junior high science student, can have more than sufficient information using a multimeter.  Excessive (a word different from higher) ripple voltage is obvious with a multimeter due to how a multimeter works.  Details well beyond this scope.  An OP takes numbers with a multimeter. Then posts based in wild speculation need not appear.  Replies from the few who actually know this stuff come with firm (without doubt) recommendations.

  A reply is only as useful as facts first provided. No numbers from a multimeter means those who actually know this stuff are silenced.  A post with multimeter numbers means  answers that are definitive - without doubt.  Many important facts (not just ripple voltage) can be identified with one minute of labor and that meter.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 3, 2011)

westom said:


> Excessive (a word different from higher) ripple voltage is obvious with a multimeter due to how a multimeter works.


Unfortunately this isn't true.  The rectifier output of your typical PSU is switching at >20kHz.  Only a very nice multimeter (which costs as much as a decent oscilloscope) is going to reliably catch "excessive" ripple, where I'm defining excessive ripple as >±0.5V.



westom said:


> test equipment is $thousands. And most every layman could not use it.


There are quite a few ways to acquire an oscilloscope for less than $400.  The best are bought secondhand from colleges/universities.  More commonly people buy USB based oscopes that start at around $200.  If you can use a multimeter you're overqualified for using a typical oscilloscope , and quickstart guides are readily available.



westom said:


> A post with multimeter numbers means  answers that are definitive - without doubt.


Unfortunately this isn't always true.  A standard multimeter just isn't going to reliably detect ripple.

For anyones reference:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Why-99-Percent-of-Power-Supply-Reviews-Are-Wrong/410/1


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## westom (Feb 3, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Unfortunately this isn't true.


  Your numbers are correct.  But excessive ripple voltage (ie > 200 mV) is detected by a multimeter because of how a $17 multimeter works.  Which is why some failures were so quickly identified with only a meter and a maximum load - due to how a meter works and how supplies regulate.

  Yes, an oscilloscope is the preferred tool for those who have $thousands in test equipment right there next to a computer. Layman must use something that only identifies most power problems and takes a minute of labor.  Resulting numbers means a layman is assisted by those who actually know how power supplies and motherboard monitors work.

erixx - it is a power 'system'.  Supply is only one component of that system.  Multimeter numbers report on everything relevant in that system - not just on a supply.  Whereas the motherboard monitor can identify typical problems before a failure results.  A multimeter can report numbers that define everything in that ‘system’.  What engineers were doing even long before the IBM PC existed.

  Calibrating the motherboard monitor simply creates an alarm that can identify problems when the computer is still working.  How to eliminate some failures when most convenient for you.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 3, 2011)

westom said:


> Your numbers are correct.  But excessive ripple voltage (ie > 200 mV) is detected by a multimeter because of how a $17 multimeter works.  Which is why some failures were so quickly identified with only a meter and a maximum load - due to how a meter works and how supplies regulate.



I own several multimeters and I have actually tried to measure ripple with them.  I have 2 Flukes, 1 Extech, 1 Radioshack, 1 Harbor Freight POS and one automotive analog multimeter.  None of them were able to confirm the 0.6Vp-p ripple (measured with a $100 oscope bought off craigslist) on my LPG2-43 (630W) power supply with a 250W load of 12V lights.  (The LPG2-43 can only supply 26A on the 12V rail so 250W was a significant load.)

Perhaps you can tell us what $17 multimeter you are using to get your results.



westom said:


> Yes, an oscilloscope is the preferred tool for those who have $thousands in test equipment right there next to a computer. Layman must use something that only identifies most power problems and takes a minute of labor.



http://www.easysync-ltd.com/product/520/ds1m12.html
http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_PCSGU250.html  -- also has a function generator 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007R8ZCG/?tag=tec06d-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0036FZRU4/?tag=tec06d-20
All of which are under $400 (most <$250) and they're all new!  You can get them for cheaper, though used, if you keep your eye on craigslist.

Also the quick start guide for the DS1M12 is 2 pages (maybe 100 words). 

Using a USB oscope should take roughly the same amount of time as it would to make similar measurements with a multimeter.  Using the information gleaned from the oscope, any laymen can determine if their PSU is pushing the limits of the ATX specification.  It could be argued that the time it takes to post your multimeter measurements online, so that self-proclaimed experts can give you an incomplete answer, is considerably more than it would be if you'd used an inexpensive oscope.

Furthermore with so many TPU members buying computers every 2 years (or so) for around $1000 (give or take), it seems strongly advisable to buy a used and/or inexpensive oscope.

@Frick - "usable oscilloscopes", as opposed to what?  Is an "unusuable" oscope a broken one?


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## Frick (Feb 3, 2011)

Aye, usable oscillosopes you use for these things are pretty cheap considering what you get.


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## westom (Feb 3, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> I own several multimeters and I have actually tried to measure ripple with them.


    No multimeter can measure ripple voltage directly.  And need not do so.  How excessive ripple voltage is detected is well beyond this discussion.  And obvious when any layman measures those DC voltages even with a $17 Wal-Mart or K-mart meter.

  You should know why a multimeter will not measure ripple voltage on AC settings (how it works).  We don't try.  Excessive ripple voltage is made obvious by how a multimeter and power supply works.  Teaching how we designed and tested supplies is not relevant to layman.  This is a layman discussion. How a layman can learn so much from one minute of labor.

  Numbers from a meter posted here will immediately result in useful replies from those who better know this stuff.  No numbers means those who know best can only post wild speculation - like so many others.  Numbers from that meter identify operation of everything in a power 'system' - not just the supply.  Massive information from only a minute of labor.  From a tool that sells in most stores that also sell hammers.

  Yes, an oscilloscope does make it easier for anyone to see failures such as ripple voltages. And to better learn how electricity works.  But using a scope is not for people who are only expected to do what any 13 year old can do.  A multimeter means anyone can have an immediate answer without wild speculation:  without the 'it might be this' or 'could be that' answer.


----------



## streetfighter 2 (Feb 3, 2011)

westom, _layman_, I don't think this means what you think it means.



westom said:


> No multimeter can measure ripple voltage directly.  And need not do so.


This is actually true. 



westom said:


> How excessive ripple voltage is detected is well beyond this discussion.


No it isn't.  It's been said like 20 times now.  It's unbelievably simple:
Step 1) Connect cheap oscope to 12V
Step 2) Observe waveform and do a Vp-p measurement
Step 3) Check if waveform is exceeding 12V ±5% (as per ATX specification)
Step 4) . . .
Step 5) Profit.

That took like 6 seconds to explain . . .


westom said:


> Numbers from a meter posted here will immediately result in useful replies from those who better know this stuff.
> . . .
> A multimeter means anyone can have an immediate answer without wild speculation:  without the 'it might be this' or 'could be that' answer.


Unfortunately you're wrong.

My measurements with various multimeters were only to amuse myself with how inaccurate of a reading I was getting.  The most egregious voltage my multimeters measured was 11.6V, which is well within specifications.  The oscope showed a completely different story, one which highlighted a dying PSU.

Simple facts:
1) The only way a multimeter can detect a malfunctioning PSU is when the average voltage drops or rises by an amount near or exceeding the ATX specification.
2) The majority of PSUs will cause instability/damage to the system proportionate to the PSU's load and ripple levels.
3) Ripple is nearly impossible to observe with a multimeter.


westom said:


> . . . using a scope is not for people who are only expected to do what any 13 year old can do.


That's what you think of the average TPU member?  That's not very nice.  Any 13 year-olds on this forum are enterprising, intelligent, and most of all resourceful.  Better to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Thirteen is the age of adulthood in many cultures.


----------



## westom (Feb 4, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> The most egregious voltage my multimeter measured was 11.6V, which is well within specifications.



When a layman reports 11.6 VDC from his meter, the reply says 12 volts is completely defective.  That number must exceed 11.75 volts.  Reasons why are found in how power supplies work and how a multimeter works combined with those spec numbers.

  5 volts must exceed 4.87.  3.3 must exceed 3.23.  If any voltage is that low, then a multimeter is reporting a defective output.   5% spec number is only one fact that defines that minimally acceptable number.

  Your scope simply confirmed what a multimeter was reporting: a defective 12 volts.

  Your attitude of having amateurs do more (ie use a scope) is admirable.  Indeed, should be encouraged.  But most computer repair people so fear anything as to also fear a tool sold in K-mart.  Because (their attitude) K-mart sells some products that should only be used by a genius.

  My experience is confirmed by what we see in the Silicon Valley.  Americans are so technically naive and so fearful of learning that 60% of new Valley employees are immigrants from India and China.  Finding people with technical knowledge (which means swallowing fears and other emotions) has become noticeably harder in the past 20 years.

  Amazing are so many who think they might be electrocuted if probing voltages inside a computer.  Technical knowledge even among some computer repairmen is that poor.   Yes, that should worry everyone reading this.

  Getting most to even use a multimeter - why do they fear so much when a cell phone is so much more complex?  Technical ignorance and fear even among one's peers is widespread.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 4, 2011)

westom said:


> When the 13 year old reports 11.6 VDC from his meter, the answer is a completely defective 12 volts. That number must exceed 11.75 volts.


This is not accurate.  My MAME machine reports 11.7V day in day out for years (and occasionally drops to around 11.6V).  She purrs like a kitten.

It's not it "must exceed", it's it "damn well should exceed".

My current PSU is at 12.54V and I've yet to see this computer crash from anything I didn't accidentally do (like pushing the ram too hard).


westom said:


> 5 volts must exceed 4.87.  3.3 must exceed 3.23.  If any voltage is that low or lower, then a multimeter reports a defective output.   5% spec number is only one fact that defines minimally acceptable numbers.




rail|tolerance|range|ripple Vp-p
+5 VDC	|±5% (±0.25 V)	|+4.75 V to +5.25 V | 50 mV
+12 VDC | ±5% (±0.60 V)|+11.40 V to +12.60 V |120 mV
+3.3 VDC|±5% (±0.165 V)|+3.135 V to +3.465 V|50 mVMany motherboards (and complementary hardware) are actually more generous than that and will give you some slack.  On the other hand some are very sensitive and will crash quickly when the limits of the standard are probed.  The multimeter is rarely the final verdict, and it's not the only tool needed for testing a power supply.



westom said:


> Your scope simply confirmed what a multimeter was reporting: a defective 12 volts.


Unfortunately you are wrong.  It was reporting acceptable voltage, the ripple as seen by oscope was well out of parameter though.  That PSU had a bad input filter which lead to large ripple.  The PSU also had poor quality switching due to lower quality MOSFETs and controller, which resulted in undesirable voltage drop.  It's sibling, with a working input filter cap was otherwise an acceptable power supply (currently used in my MAME machine) despite the voltage drop.



Mussels said:


> voltage droops and ripple are both ways to tell if somethings wrong with a PSU.


I never said voltage drops aren't a way to tell that something is wrong with a PSU, but it's not always (or even often) the final answer.  As you said yourself some hardware is more/less sensitive to voltage and ripple conditions, which doesn't necessarily mean the PSU is defective.

I posted this earlier:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Why-99-Percent-of-Power-Supply-Reviews-Are-Wrong/410/1
I find it to be more or less accurate.


----------



## Mussels (Feb 4, 2011)

streetfighter 2: no he isnt, most PSU's try and remain within 3%.


just because you have systems that work fine outside those specs doesnt mean the specs have changed.


I've seen systems still booting and running at 11.2V, and i've seen others that crashed if they went below 11.9v


voltage droops and ripple are both ways to tell if somethings wrong with a PSU.


----------



## Wile E (Feb 4, 2011)

Mussels said:


> streetfighter 2: no he isnt, most PSU's try and remain within 3%.
> 
> 
> just because you have systems that work fine outside those specs doesnt mean the specs have changed.
> ...



Not unless you measures the psu before problems occured, and the voltages were different.

If you never took a meter to your psu befre you encountered problems, getting a 11.6v reading on the 12v does not show a sign of a bad psu. What if it read 11.6v prior to having issues, but you just never measured it? 

The only way a multimeter proves anything is if your psu is reading different compared to when (if) you took a baseline, or it shows the psu running out of ATX specs (which is ±5% on the 12v rails or exactly what street posted).


----------



## Mussels (Feb 4, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> I posted this earlier:
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Why-99-Percent-of-Power-Supply-Reviews-Are-Wrong/410/1
> I find it to be more or less accurate.



i missed that earlier, but its quite a good read.

I used to do PSU reviews, and quit for the same reasons they stated there - you need proper equipment to test it, and PSU companies didnt want you to. they sent guidelines on what they wanted in the reviews, and it really did consist of nothing more than plugging it into a PC and seeing if the voltages moved.


edit for wile E: i said in an earlier post that measuring them early on for a baseline was a good idea. You are correct in street posting the ±5% - i was agreeing on that point. a multimeter can let you know if its out of spec there, while an oscilliscope lets you know if its a shit PSU or not.


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## bokou (Feb 19, 2011)

I've got a Xion 800W modular and I've been satisfied with it so far for about 2 years now. It's powered a 9800 GX2 and a 6970 and never given me trouble powering or staying on nearly 24/7 despite it being a 4-rail.

My next PSU will likely be a Corsair or some other reputable brand and will need to be 1000W and single-rail to withstand expandability. I doubt my Xion will run two 6970's in Xfire since it's a 4-rail and won't want to chance it. Just offering up my $.02 on this particular PSU.


----------



## grimzz R (Feb 24, 2011)

what PSU should i get for this build?

 Once You Know, You Newegg


----------



## cdawall (Feb 24, 2011)

grimzz R said:


> what PSU should i get for this build?
> 
> Once You Know, You Newegg



a good 500w would power it just fine 

CORSAIR Builder Series CMPSU-500CX 500W ATX12V v2....

PC Power and Cooling Silencer Mk II PPCMK2S500 500...

PC Power & Cooling Silencer PPCS500D 500W ATX12V /...

OCZ ModXStream Pro OCZ500MXSP 500W ATX12V V2.2 / E...


----------



## grimzz R (Feb 24, 2011)

i decided on the Corsair 600W.


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## Mussels (Feb 24, 2011)

grimzz R said:


> i decided on the Corsair 600W.



the CX is their budget (worst) line, but that doesnt mean it wont fit your needs perfectly. decent warranty on it too.


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## bokou (Mar 19, 2011)

Just bought a Corsair 1200w and it's made by Flextronics. The OP could use to be updated a wee bit.

here's a review of the Corsair AX1200 - http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/06/21/corsair_ax1200_1200w_power_supply_review/


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## bokou (Apr 25, 2011)

bump - can we get Flextronics added as a supplier for Corsair?



> Flextronics International Ltd. is an electronics manufacturing services provider, which makes it a bit atypical from the general consumer SMPS OEM, founded in 1969 and headquartered in Singapore. Flextronics provides a wide range of manufacturing, supply chain management and procurement, logistical support, and technical support services for industries ranging from automotive, to medical, to consumer electronic, and industrial component production. Some of their more familiar customers that they provide manufacturing services, or outright production for are familiar to many users including Lenovo, Lego Group, Microsoft, RIM, LG, SUN, HP, Kodak, Verizon, Amazon, Samsung, Siemens, Apple, and many more. Flextronics subsidiary FlexPower, was founded in 2005 and Flextronics claims that following the acquisition of Friwo and Coldwatt, plus internal growth and development that they are now the "4th largest power supply company in the world". However, its production of products for the consumer SMPS market is still rather limited with Corsair bringing the first product from Flextronics/FlexPower to the enthusiast we have seen to date.


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## p_o_s_pc (Apr 25, 2011)

bokou said:


> bump - can we get Flextronics added as a supplier for Corsair?



The poster of the OP isn't very active anymore an update may not happen. This thread still is useful for people as the later post give some updated info.


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## bokou (Apr 25, 2011)

gotcha, good to know!


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## guestxx (May 5, 2011)

I had Fortron SagaII 500 and it is in no way what fortron used to be, so i don't recommend it


----------



## pepsi71ocean (May 16, 2011)

is there a way we can get this list updated with all of the new mfg's and cover names they have?


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## Mussels (May 18, 2011)

pepsi71ocean said:


> is there a way we can get this list updated with all of the new mfg's and cover names they have?



you make a new list and i can edit it in.


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## pepsi71ocean (May 19, 2011)

Mussels said:


> you make a new list and i can edit it in.



I wouldn't even know where to begin


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## EarthDog (May 19, 2011)

Look past the fact that its Tom's that put this together...LOL!

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-oem-manufacturer,2913-4.html

The list below is comprised only of approved reviews from the best reviewers around (jonnyguru, [h] for example). These test in hot box, ripple and noise, etc. Better than people saying, this blew up on me or, ones that just make sure the rails are within spec.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589708


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## pepsi71ocean (May 19, 2011)

EarthDog said:


> Look past the fact that its Tom's that put this together...LOL!
> 
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-oem-manufacturer,2913-4.html
> 
> ...



it looks like i am goign to go thread diving then!

Mussles expect a PM someday in the future.


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## cdawall (May 21, 2011)

pepsi71ocean said:


> it looks like i am goign to go thread diving then!
> 
> Mussles expect a PM someday in the future.



shoot me pm's if you need some help


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## pepsi71ocean (May 21, 2011)

cdawall said:


> shoot me pm's if you need some help



Thanks!

Im bound to run into questions along the way.


----------



## Cvrk (Aug 4, 2011)

*Corsair CX600*

I have an Corsair CX600 PSU. I whant to buy a new case for my PC.My guess is that this is a buttom case psu.Not sure cuz now I have a top case, so it is instaled at the top and it sucks air from inside the case and it blows it outside the case. The air that it sucks is mostly the one from my CPU, wich is hot-iar,so this way I don't think the cooling of the psu is done corectly.In spite the fact that I have it for 4 mounths and it never overheated or anything like that. Wich one sould a buy, a "buttom case psu" or a "top/normal case PSU" (like I have now) ? 
BTW I will buy a  middle tower case .

Bottom line: Is the CX600 a bottom case PSU or not / what kind of case do you recommend for such a psu? 

Here is a picture, you can see how I have my psu instaled at the moment

[img=http://s3.postimage.org/9e8j4w90/DSC02287.jpg]


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## streetfighter 2 (Aug 4, 2011)

@Cvrk
Every PSU that I've encountered exhausts out the back.  If it exhausted out the bottom instead then it would be blowing hot air right onto the CPU in the top mounted configuration!

I wouldn't really worry about it as people, myself included, have been using the inefficient top mounting for years.  Just remember to dust in there every few months and it shouldn't be an issue.


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## Mussels (Aug 4, 2011)

the PSU is at the top, because once upon a time the PSU was used as a case fan to exhaust hot air out of the case... its only with modern, power hungry components that enough heat was produced to have a detrimental effect on PSU's used in that manner.


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## billcat479 (Sep 3, 2011)

*Very good, and very good information.*

Thank you very much. This IS one subject that everyone should be very well informed about as you are def. right being the most important part of your computer is the power supply.
  Being a used to be electronic Tech/engineer the worst hair tearing problems can be related to a poorly made or damaged power supply and buying good right from the start will give you the most enjoyment possible out of any system you have.
  I can think back (harder after getting hit by car and my brain got hammered) to the days when it was very common to get power supplies with your case and most let it go at that. Even me... argh, em-barest to say the least because I got a bad one, but was a good learning experience and it was also after doing a lot of research that led me to my first PC Power and Cooling power supply purchase. I've stuck with them and I've only needed to buy 2 of them for my own computers as they have lasted and outlasted them as mods demanded more power.
    I've recommended them to users and systems I built for friends and shouted down their bitching at the cost saying your going to thank me in the end by not coming back with intermittent lockups and such and ask me to find the trouble. That is no fun at all. I used to have my own O-scope and could fish out noise related and/or power related problems but it died long ago. but anyway....

  Back then they (PC Power)  were pretty much in a field of their own as far as reviews and word of mouth goes. Now they are build by others but built to their design specs so you will get a good one no matter who makes it. OCZ ownership still worries me but so far so good.

  Anyway, thank you very much for helping everyone learn more about a area that computer builders should know about.
  As no one can never know enough and your work here is commendable and just plain nice. Thank you...


----------



## entropy13 (Sep 3, 2011)

> OEMs that sometimes produce decent PSu's, but you should stay away from:
> 
> Channellwell while they produced the notorious smartpower series, they also produce the very good thermaltake toughpower series, and have recently been making corsair psu's. They're overall a good company with a bad past, good recommend their newer units such as corsair & Thermaltake.
> 
> ...



This part is direly in need of an update. Superflower, right now, are the only OEM that makes the 80PLUS PLATINUM PSUs readily available to the market (under their own brand or as a Kingwin PSU). Others have announced their PLATNIUM PSUs, but are yet to release them. There are no "bad" PSUs from them since 2009, and their PSUs are actually one of the most efficient PSUs ever. IIRC it's because of how efficient some of their GOLD PSUs are that Ecos Consulting added PLATINUM.

Then there's Leadman...


----------



## billcat479 (Sep 3, 2011)

*Just a passing note, with some unrealated info for how weird I am.*

While it was a long time ago and adding to my prev. post I just thought I'd throw this one in. The bad power supply I got with a case and have heard from others was Sparkle power supplies. I swore I'd never go near them again but times do change and I saw to my amazement that they even made some PC Power supplies at one time. Boy was that a shock but I do owe them for making one terrible one that got me interested long ago (it was for a Cyrix 686 I think that was it's number as it was long long ago).. lol.. 
  So I put them in my bad list mostly due to habit and because it was a pain finding out it was the source of my erratic acting computer. The 3.3v line was so noisy and dropped a bit when loaded so the computer worked fine under mild use but got unstable under various loads. What a nail biter that was. 
  But I took it as a good excuse to educate myself about power supplies because of them so I do owe Sparkle for that. Laughs...
  I am kind of not impressed by the EarthWatts lineup. They say multi rail as the guy that did this said about false rails and are cheap to buy and doubt the multi rail part but I don't have any actual experience with them other than buying one for a disaster backup computer if my main one fails. I also bucked my standing trend of buying only PC Power by getting my Seasonic 850W Power supply.
  I know it was expensive like was posted but they do make fantastic power supplies and are getting great reviews from sites that do take the time to do proper tests and check out many area's of power supplies that a lot of sites don't like noise and voltage stability when loaded. I also don't disagree but I question the remark of testing at room temp. I've seen a lot of product testing over the years and testing power supplies in colder or hotter than normal is very important because it tests all the components quality and some computers do work in high room temp or very cold room temps and it's is important to know they will be able to handle it. With electronic parts each different type of parts react differently to temps and if they are in critical circuit area such as feedback loops where any offset error is compounded it's important to know this. Though most don't need to go as far as millspec. testing it's still very important to know it will work in the worst of conditions and weed out the weak spots of a design. In power supplies where they are boxed in even with good fans they will still have hot spots and can run up temps pretty fast under heavy loads. 
  I Hope/pray the starter of this topic understands I'm not being critical or nasty. It's the last thing I want to do is even imply a insult which is not where I'm heading with this so please don't get mad at me. The world and the universe wants to kill me with a passion and I sure don't want to add people into the mix as well. Fate has me pegged as a target already it seems..
    It's just the way I was trained to look at things when I was in school. And your more intelligent than I am. And I used to be a LOT smarter than I am now but like I said the world hates me and wants me out of the way.
    But I got a lot of this working for Intel at their Fab4/production plant and Fab5 R&D plant next door in Beaverton Or.  Man was that the worst job I've ever suffered. I leaned a lot of neat things but mainly kept the production equipment on line and felt more like a Maytag repairman that had to wear a bunny-suit. This is what we called the clean room attire we had to wear while in the production area.
  When I got out of there and went to work for BTS, 
Business Telephone Systems and repaired the phones and KSU that typical office buildings use that handle up to 50 phones off of the one KSU I saw some weird and supprising things. Like phones from Texas filled with dead cockroaches. Man what a stink that was and people would talk on these things.. gross...
  But what I really want to get at is when a IC chip got wacked by lightning you would think that any chip with the same part number would work but this was seldom true. Either it's slew rate was a micro second off or it had a slight ring in the square wave front or back but we couldn't put,say a TI (texas inst.) brand chip in, we had to use another brand  no matter if it should say it works in the TI parts data manual that gives you all it's tested specs but you read the total specs and you see a slightly different graph over a given temp range or current or fan out specs and all the good timing specs and as far as the repair goes you are working with a chip from Mars as far as it's concerned. In designing every element is usually tested at 10% beyond normal if possible to make sure of reliability in the field.
  Here is a weird example of murphy's law in action.  We had to use this brand chip for this particular circuit or their chip or another brand but some would work and some wouldn't even though everything said they should work for the most part everything was equal.  In other area's of the circuit it would work but in come area's they wouldn't. Because of the circuit design some aspects of a design are more important than others. In feedback circuits it was super critical that everything worked to perfection and this is a good example of why they test to beyond normal conditions. And with parts now coming from China where they are still on a learning curve it makes it even more important to test their stuff harshly. 

 But anyway, back to power supplies... I do drift don't I..lol..
    I sometimes treat power supplies differently for good brand name ones I like to think you get what you pay for a lot of the times and I prefer to buy knowing I'm getting quality components.    
    Without tearing into them like I used to and seeing caps and resistors with 1% tolerance rated parts instead of the cheaper 5% was the most common used spec tolerance or worse yet they used the 10% parts that goes into cheaper made power supplies.
  It can be very important to get parts like these and worth the extra cost..  They have a lot better chance of working right the first time coming off the production line. But they put variable caps or resistors or inductors in to tune out these problems a lot of the time but they can't do it for everything and when you add more variables the problems get worse. At least Power Supplies are simple designs but they still need good quality parts like any other circuit.
      At least to me now being stuck on disability and sometimes have to fight it out with my cat on who gets to eat each day it really shows how much importance I put into cost/reliability/length of use ratios.  While I'm worried about costs a lot I also look at the long term use that can offset costs down the road.  This is important. I will spend a bit more if I buy one that lasts 5 to 8 years instead of having to buy one every 2 to 4 years because it was a bit cheaper and not so well designed or has caps that won't dry out or explode... booom.. lol   Does this make logical sense to you?


----------



## billcat479 (Sep 3, 2011)

*And good backup data to these power supplies possible?*



entropy13 said:


> This part is direly in need of an update. Superflower, right now, are the only OEM that makes the 80PLUS PLATINUM PSUs readily available to the market (under their own brand or as a Kingwin PSU). Others have announced their PLATNIUM PSUs, but are yet to release them. There are no "bad" PSUs from them since 2009, and their PSUs are actually one of the most efficient PSUs ever. IIRC it's because of how efficient some of their GOLD PSUs are that Ecos Consulting added PLATINUM.
> 
> Then there's Leadman...


 As your defending them and nothing wrong with that as long as you have credible data to confirm that they are making such good power supplies. This is the first I've heard of them so it sounds like they do well oversea's. Please give any good reviews, tests of these power supplies and so forth. It would be good to know.
  If you don't then please don't post anything more than I heard that they were good. Information on the internet is already in situation critical overload LOL.....  so if you have links please post them for all to read. It would be great to know.


----------



## entropy13 (Sep 3, 2011)

billcat479 said:


> As your defending them and nothing wrong with that as long as you have credible data to confirm that they are making such good power supplies. This is the first I've heard of them so it sounds like they do well oversea's. Please give any good reviews, tests of these power supplies and so forth. It would be good to know.
> If you don't then please don't post anything more than I heard that they were good. Information on the internet is already in situation critical overload LOL.....  so if you have links please post them for all to read. It would be great to know.





http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Superflower

There are recent JonnyGuru and TPU (you know, this site itself) reviews in the first 6 results.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Kingwin

There are JonnyGuru, [H]ardocp and TPU reviews in the first 10 results.


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## billcat479 (Sep 4, 2011)

*Thank you*

thank you very much for the links. Have to check them out.  Very nice of you to provide them.
Have a good weekend..


----------



## mastrdrver (Oct 2, 2011)

Is there a reason why you didn't include Enermax under the OEM section?


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## RoutedScripter (Oct 12, 2011)

mastrdrver said:


> Is there a reason why you didn't include Enermax under the OEM section?



they don't seem to do OEMs for others ... but i think they did


----------



## cdawall (Oct 13, 2011)

mastrdrver said:


> Is there a reason why you didn't include Enermax under the OEM section?



because the list is like 2 years old?


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## AsRock (Oct 13, 2011)

cdawall said:


> because the list is like 2 years old?



Shame it's not been updated for so long .


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## de.das.dude (Dec 16, 2011)

someone edit this thread. corsair doesnt have seasonic OEM anymore.


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## entropy13 (Dec 16, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> someone edit this thread. corsair doesnt have seasonic OEM anymore.



Uh, they still do?

The only way your statement would be true is if they discontinue the AX series, specifically the 650W, 750W and 850W models.


----------



## de.das.dude (Dec 16, 2011)

no my gs600 isnt made by seasonic. someone told me.


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## entropy13 (Dec 16, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> no my gs600 isnt made by seasonic. someone told me.



So how does that validate your statement that "Corsair doesn't have Seasonic OEM anymore"?

Also, the TXV2 series are by Seasonic.


----------



## de.das.dude (Dec 16, 2011)

correction? corsair doesnt have seasonic as their only OEM?


----------



## billcat479 (Dec 22, 2011)

billcat479 said:


> As your defending them and nothing wrong with that as long as you have credible data to confirm that they are making such good power supplies. This is the first I've heard of them so it sounds like they do well oversea's. Please give any good reviews, tests of these power supplies and so forth. It would be good to know.
> If you don't then please don't post anything more than I heard that they were good. Information on the internet is already in situation critical overload LOL.....  so if you have links please post them for all to read. It would be great to know.



  Hi, I'll try to put links from now on. I can only say I think the tests was done at either Hardocp (I'm not sure about the name, I had a reinstall and lost most of my bookmarks but they do good tests on power supplies and Tom's hardware did a bit of testing as well. Just go to those sights and look at their power supply sections for their past reviews if your still interested.
 I was really impressed by their reviews. They use proper testing meters that show noise and loading which is very critical and isn't done by a few other sites that don't have the money or the will to invest in testing meters and O-scopes that are really needed when their testing power supplies.
  Noise is always a important issue when voltage levels are getting so low that any potental noise that could make it too the cpu ( though getting through the motherboards regulators now days is next to impossible) but still any power supply that puts out a lot of noise is not one to buy for any reason because it's sloppy and gives more room to damage data or hardware. I saw a warning from AMD to not use memory over 1.5v with it's new cpu's because it can damage it and so just a .1v spike jump could potentally ruin a cpu is reason enough to watch for poorly made power supplies. I could not come close to knowing how it could make it through this way but better safe than sorry right?
   I am sorry I can not be very specific on a lot of stuff unless I write it down. I lost that ability to retain this kind of data after my accident and can only go by general information for the most part. Very sorry about this. I just still like to help get people to think more about the topic the best I can. I'm making a lot of people mad at me over the whole AMD/Intel issues because of the poor testing being done on the new AMD cpus by the major sites that is very obvious but people are happy to gloss over what AMD is trying to do with this new design that is infuriating. It's all about a long view issue built into their cpus and future potental that won't show up for a few months so I'm getting into tons of heated posts about this. 
  But oh well, merry Xmas to everyone, I am going into hiding as usual this time of the year. And be very careful with new years too ok? Health is everything so don't get into a situation where you can ruin yours. I did and am very much like that House char. and take tons of pain pills for the last 20 years and it's horrible so stay safe!!!!!! Have fun but don't ruin your health ok folks????  I went from very smart to smart that I can't use anymore consistently.


----------



## happy (Mar 7, 2012)

So I am getting this --> COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro1000 RS-A00-EMBA .  Is this enough for x2 6950, 6 HDD, 1 SSD, 5 Fans, i5 2500k (overclock).  The OP says that I need to have 40 amps on the 12v rail, but the specified PSU only has 18 amps.

Please help.


----------



## Mussels (Mar 7, 2012)

happy said:


> So I am getting this --> COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro1000 RS-A00-EMBA .  Is this enough for x2 6950, 6 HDD, 1 SSD, 5 Fans, i5 2500k (overclock).  The OP says that I need to have 40 amps on the 12v rail, but the specified PSU only has 18 amps.
> 
> Please help.



it has 6x 18X rails for 12V.

i would not recommend that PSU.


the positive reviews on newegg give it away, none of the people reviewing it got past the "OMG 1000 WATTS AND LOTS OF CABLES" stage. the few who list system specs, are listing old, non power hungry hardware.

the few who do... well



> Pros: Coolermaster RMA department are good. This power supply is ok for mid-range systems. Looks cool and stays cool. Quiet
> 
> Cons: After 8 monthes the power supply would randomly shut down. Trying to restart your computer afterward could only be accomplished by unplugging the power cable, waiting for the LED's to go out then plugging the power cable back in.
> i RMA'd the first one thingking i just got a lemon one. 8 months later the same thing with the new one...





> Pros: Well built looking PSU...shiny, nice fan, moves a lot of air
> 
> Cons: You would think a close to $400 PSU would be a well built one.....but...
> Can not handle the system =\
> ...





> Pros: 1000WATTS, worked good for the first couple of months
> 
> Cons: causes random shutdowns and restarting of your computer, also causes your sytem to get the blue screen of death. I never thought it could have been the PSU causeing this, but after doing some research and testing my components, I am almost positive its this PSU. I'm gonna try an RMA and see if its just a bad PSU.





> Pros: Lots of connecters, lots of power
> 
> Cons: After the first couple of months the PSU started causeing the computer to randomly restart and get the blue screen of death. I never thought it would be the PSU, but after extensive testing (and 9 months of experimenting with different operating systems......linux anyone?) I am positive it is the PSU causing this




the PSU is a lemon. dont go near it.


----------



## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (Mar 23, 2012)

What about Cooler Master Extreme power plus 700w?


----------



## happy (Mar 23, 2012)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> What about Cooler Master Extreme power plus 700w?



Well it has a "single +12V rail (up to 52A)" which is better than the one I have.  One 12v rail is better than multiple.


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## Mussels (Mar 23, 2012)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> What about Cooler Master Extreme power plus 700w?





happy said:


> Well it has a "single +12V rail (up to 52A)" which is better than the one I have.  One 12v rail is better than multiple.



a single 52A rail sounds quite good, but in my experience coolermaster PSU's have all been bottom of the barrel junk. I love their cases and other hardware, but their PSU's tend to be pretty crappy.



I'm sure they do have some good models in their lineup, but i'm not aware of them. google is your friend there.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Mar 23, 2012)

The cooler master silent pro line is ok, I'd skip the rest. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=134


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## Mussels (Mar 23, 2012)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> The cooler master silent pro line is ok, I'd skip the rest. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=134



thanks. i blindly follow jonnyguru's advice with this stuff, he really is a PSU expert.


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## happy (Mar 26, 2012)

Mussels said:


> thanks. i blindly follow jonnyguru's advice with this stuff, he really is a PSU expert.



Hey Mussels,
So I was looking at a Corsair HX1000w and it has multiple 12v rails, so why is it more reliable and have more positive reviews than the 1000w CoolerMaster Real Power?


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## Mussels (Mar 26, 2012)

happy said:


> Hey Mussels,
> So I was looking at a Corsair HX1000w and it has multiple 12v rails, so why is it more reliable and have more positive reviews than the 1000w CoolerMaster Real Power?



as i said in PM, because coolermaster PSU's tend to suck, while corsair dont.


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## entropy13 (Mar 26, 2012)

happy said:


> Well it has a "single +12V rail (up to 52A)" which is better than the one I have.  *One 12v rail is better than multiple*.



Not really. It still depends on...everything else.


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## Mussels (Mar 26, 2012)

entropy13 said:


> Not really. It still depends on...everything else.



i believe that less rails is better - but a shit single rail PSU is still shit, vs a quality multi rail.


the main problem with multi rail PSU's is when the rails dont have enough power - EG, no matter how many 18A rails you have, you're still capped at a low amount.

now two (or more) 35A rails, you'd be hard pressed to over load.


----------



## zaqwsx (Apr 2, 2012)

You gotta get something like this:

Thermaltake Toughpower W0132RU 1000W ATX12V / EPS1...

I have been using that power supply for a few years now in my system. And if you ever have problems the rma prosses with thermaltake is nice and fast.


----------



## Marclar (Apr 15, 2012)

Can someone tell me why isn't chieftec mentioned here either as bad or good brand? It's funny how thoughts on this company are mixed... Some say it's bad some say it's good. I really have no idea which PSU to buy(I mean i have no idea which brand is good for quality products for money etc...). Also please bare in mind that i don't want to invest 150-200 euros into a PSU... i'm investing about 70-100 euros


----------



## Vulpesveritas (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm just wondering looking at the front page, what about the newer 80+ Platinum Kingwin PSUs?  Just noticing that Kingwin is listed in the "companies to stay away from" with the superflower internals. 
Just wondering, I'm probably going with an OCZ or Seasonic myself.


----------



## entropy13 (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> Can someone tell me why isn't chieftec mentioned here either as bad or good brand? It's funny how thoughts on this company are mixed... Some say it's bad some say it's good. I really have no idea which PSU to buy(I mean i have no idea which brand is good for quality products for money etc...). Also please bare in mind that i don't want to invest 150-200 euros into a PSU... i'm investing about 70-100 euros





Vulpesveritas said:


> I'm just wondering looking at the front page, what about the newer 80+ Platinum Kingwin PSUs?  Just noticing that Kingwin is listed in the "companies to stay away from" with the superflower internals.
> Just wondering, I'm probably going with an OCZ or Seasonic myself.




Because the first post has never been updated since 2007.


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## Vulpesveritas (Apr 16, 2012)

entropy13 said:


> Because the first post has never been updated since 2007.



gotcha gotcha.... 
..
well okay then.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

if someone comes up with an updated first page and its gets approval on here, i'll stick it in. just copy paste the entire first page, update it, and put it behind a spoiler tag.


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## entropy13 (Apr 16, 2012)

Mussels said:


> if someone comes up with an updated first page and its gets approval on here, i'll stick it in. just copy paste the entire first page, update it, and put it behind a spoiler tag.



I'll try working on that then.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Can someone tell me is Chieftec APS-750c http://www.chieftec.eu/en/psus/a-135-series/aps-750c.html good? Also it's being produced by sirtec.


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## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> Can someone tell me is Chieftec APS-750c http://www.chieftec.eu/en/psus/a-135-series/aps-750c.html good? Also it's being produced by sirtec.



with four 18A rails i'd stay away. its too easy to overload such a weak rail on modern systems.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Mussels said:


> with four 18A rails i'd stay away. its too easy to overload such a weak rail on modern systems.



then which one would u suggest from chieftec that is around 700w?


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## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> then which one would u suggest from chieftec that is around 700w?



anything with less rails, and higher amperage per rail. 

afaik chieftec isnt sold in my country, so you'll have to research this one.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Can you explain me a bit what's with multi rails?? can't you like combine those 2 rails to get more A?


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## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> Can you explain me a bit what's with multi rails?? can't you like combine those 2 rails to get more A?



no, you cant combine them.

putting it simply, if you have four power hungry devices (or groups of devices) in your system using less than the 18A, split evenly over the rails its all good.


put two of them on the same rail (say, a high powered CPU and a video card or two drawing from the PCI-E slot) and suddenly that one rail might have nowhere near enough power to do its job - while a single (or more powerful dual) rail unit would have no problem.



multiple rail PSU's arent bad - its when the amperage is so low, that its a bad thing. these 18A rail units just cant handle modern power hungry hardware.


----------



## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

well don't you use like 2 rails to power modern gpus?
PS: I'm really confused atm... why would they make weak PSU that's 750w and costs like 100e and lots of people say it can push sli gpus (500 series) easily...


----------



## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> well don't you use like 2 rails to power modern gpus?
> PS: I'm really confused atm... why would they make weak PSU that's 750w and costs like 100e and lots of people say it can push sli gpus (500 series) easily...



let me put it another way.


you have two wall sockets for electrical power, in two rooms of your house.

each one can do 100W for the sake of convenience here.


you can run 200W of devices all you please, so long as its split evenly - but the moment you try and pull 110W of either socket alone, the fuse is going to trip.

in the case of 18A rails, its 216W. 216W will be fine on a low to midrange system, unless you do something they didnt plan for.

a good example is that i ran 4870 crossfire on a 700W unit with 4x18A 12V rails. it worked fine, except that i needed to use a molex to PCI-E power splitter... oh yeah, that ran off the same rail as the CPU. under load, this caused the PSU to cut out, turning off the PC.
i had plenty of power left on the other rails, but the way the PSU was wired i couldnt access that power.

they can work well, and they can work for years problem free. but i dont see why anyone would ever bother running that risk when you have other choices that do not entail that risk.


----------



## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Mussels said:


> they can work well, and they can work for years problem free. but i dont see why anyone would ever bother running that risk when you have other choices that do not entail that risk.


Well That's the thing m8... I live in serbia and dominant brands are CM and Chieftec for PSUs... And i can't see any better PSU that has less rails with more A. I'm investing about 100 euros to buy good and lasting PSU for my current and new PC which ill buy in a year or 2. I also don't plan to have a beast rig which costs 1 to 2k euros... I'm planning on running solid PC spec ill probably get I7 and later on 780 or 760ti depends on how agressive games will be in 2 to 3 years and 750w should be ideal for this combo. Also as you can see with my questions i've never looked on a serious side PSUs and am trying to understand em as much as possible


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## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

you can say 750W, 800W, or 10,000W it means nothing if you cant use those rails.


if you get a single high end video card, its technically shared over (up to) three sources - some power from the PCI-E slot, some from the two PCI-E plugs. it doesnt matter if you have a 2,000W PSU, since at best, you're stuck with the power from those three sources only.

i say sources, because you dont really know how they're split inside the PSU - rail 1 could be  the 24 pin ATX plug, rail two could be the extra 4/8 pin CPU aux power, with three and four for the PCI-E plugs.

but then where is the SATA and molex plugs? which rail do you have to avoid overloading to compensate for them?


if you're after an i7 and a GTX 780, thats not low end. thats high end. take your time, save your money, and find a better unit. corsair, seasonic, enermax, but dont waste your time and money looking for the best of the worst PSU's.


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## m1dg3t (Apr 16, 2012)

This guy prolly has the most info gathered, here is his FAQ list http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDFAQs Go through the rest of his site to find buying guide's etc....

TPU's own PSU reviewer crmaris is VERY knowledgeable about PSU's and his reviews are VERY well put together as well so i reccomend going through his review's too


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## Mussels (Apr 16, 2012)

jonnyguru is miles above my knowledge, you can trust all of his info.


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## m1dg3t (Apr 16, 2012)

Mussels said:


> jonnyguru is miles above my knowledge, you can trust all of his info.



Wasn't trying to knock you in any way Mussels, your advice is/was solid 

Between crmaris & the guru i really don't think you can make a mistake


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Wow... thanks guys gonna enjoy educating myself about PSUs


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## Frick (Apr 16, 2012)

Chieftec is usually pretty decent for the money BTW. I have one meself and reviews are often "ok".


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## silkstone (Apr 16, 2012)

Nice write up and very informative.

I have to disagree with saying all AcBel units you should stay away from. They have some very good write ups on hardwaresecrets but, also, some very bad ones. It really depends on the model. The Cooler master ones made by AcBel are pure crap, but some of the others appear decent enough. Pity there are only a few English reviews on the earlier models and none on the later ones


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

can any of you suggest a chieftec model that's good and around 100e?


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## Frick (Apr 16, 2012)

Here the Chieftec Nitro Series BPS-750C is about €100 and seems to be pretty good.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Frick said:


> Here the Chieftec Nitro Series BPS-750C is about €100 and seems to be pretty good.



can it sustain hungrier components?


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## TC-man (Apr 16, 2012)

Well, I can recommend the XFX PRO750W (sleeved) which costs around the 80-89 Euro, while the Pro Series 750W XXX Edition (modular) costs around the 100 Euro. Both are Seasonic OEMs, thus high quality power supply units.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story10&reid=216

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=184


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

TC-man said:


> Well, I can recommend the XFX PRO750W (sleeved) which costs around the 80-89 Euro, while the Pro Series 750W XXX Edition (modular) costs around the 100 Euro. Both are Seasonic OEMs, thus high quality power supply units.
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story10&reid=216
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=184



there is no XFX here m8


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## TC-man (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> there is no XFX here m8



What brands of PSU do you have in your neighborhood, besides Chieftec?
How about the Corsair TX750 V2 which is also a Seasonic OEM?

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/TX750_V2/8.html


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

TC-man said:


> What brands of PSU do you have in your neighborhood, besides Chieftec?
> How about the Corsair TX750 V2 which is also a Seasonic OEM?
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/TX750_V2/8.html


The ones i see are CoolerMaster, Chieftec, Seasonic(i see very few of their PSUs that are being sold here) Thermaltake. Most PSUs supplied here are CM and Chieftec... Thermaltake and Seasonic dont have many PSUs here


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

From the looks of it... Looks like Chieftec BPS 750c is the one i will have to go with...  any1 share some thoughts about it?


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## TC-man (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> The ones i see are CoolerMaster, Chieftec, Seasonic(i see very few of their PSUs that are being sold here) Thermaltake. Most PSUs supplied here are CM and Chieftec... Thermaltake and Seasonic dont have many PSUs here



See if you can find a Coolermaster Silent Pro M700W which makes use of an Enhance OEM. Thermaltake has pretty good PSUs, especially the ToughPower series with Channelwell OEMs, but avoid those TR2 or Smart series with HEC OEMs. I guess the 750W Seasonic branded PSUs will be over the 100 Euros budget, but you may find the Seasonic M12II 650W for under 100 Euros, if 650 Watt is enough for you, that is.


----------



## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

but What about that chieftec BPS 750c?


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

can someone share some thoughts about chieftec BPS 750c? and i see there's also thermaltake XT TPX-775M... How better is one from the other also bear in mind that BPS 750c costs about 97euros and TPX 775 costs about 125euros


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## TC-man (Apr 16, 2012)

I can only find a Tom's Hardware PSU round-up with the Chieftec BPS-750C, Tom's Hardware approved Chieftec's PSU in the round-up. It looks like the BPS-750C makes use of a Channelwell OEM, it may be close to the one of Corsair GS800.




Marclar said:


> can someone share some thoughts about chieftec BPS 750c? and i see there's also thermaltake XT TPX-775M... How better is one from the other also bear in mind that BPS 750c costs about 97euros and TPX 775 costs about 125euros



Well, that Thermaltake Toughpower XT 775 W is a better PSU than the Chieftec BPS-750C, because it make use of a better Channelwell OEM which is more energy-efficient, provides cleaner power, lower noise. I think the Chieftec PSU is more than decent and can deliver the labeled power rating without problem, but if you want something better, then you can consider the Thermaltake XT 775 which got a better design internally which also translates into a higher price.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Is it good then?


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2012)

Mussels said:


> no, you cant combine them.
> 
> putting it simply, if you have four power hungry devices (or groups of devices) in your system using less than the 18A, split evenly over the rails its all good.
> 
> ...


It depends. Some PSU's even though its multi rail, they really arent, in that there is no OCP on any of the rails so any of the rails can handle the full 12v output. With modern PSU's the situation you describe is rare as most power is on the 12v rail anyway vs old PSU's where it was more so on the 3v/5v rails. 

+1 to Cmaris and especially JG(Oklahoma Wolf and JG himself).


----------



## TC-man (Apr 16, 2012)

Marclar said:


> Is it good then?



Well, the Chieftec BPS-750C is not a bad PSU, but the Thermaltake XT 775W is better and Thermaltake provides a much better warranty, 5 years warranty on the Thermaltake PSU, while Chieftec gives you just 24 month, i.e. 2 years warranty for their PSU. Personally, I would buy the Thermaltake one, because the better internal design, overall efficiency and above all a much better warranty of 5 years.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

Well actually I'm screwed... there's no longer XT 775w in stores here... Now it's between Chieftec BPS-750c and Seasonic SS 620 GM


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## EarthDog (Apr 16, 2012)

Seasonic.


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

EarthDog said:


> Seasonic.



How about seasonic SS-750 am?


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## Marclar (Apr 16, 2012)

http://www.seasonicusa.com/M12II-Bronze-650-750-850.htm
How about this 750w... Is it worth 120 euros?


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## Cotton_Cup (Apr 20, 2012)

So I guess those FSP psu are great choice then, actually they are really cheap in my local stores, and btw seasonic are cheaper than corsair at least ^_^.

at first I thought that FSP psu are garbage but I guess this list clarify that it's not


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## revin (Apr 27, 2012)

Cotton_Cup said:


> So I guess those FSP psu are great choice then, actually they are really cheap in my local stores, and btw seasonic are cheaper than corsair at least ^_^.
> 
> at first I thought that FSP psu are garbage but I guess this list clarify that it's not



Oh wow they are fantastic  My FX700GLN has been going thru 3 systems now!
Most every one here nudge me there waaaay back in the P4EE 3.4 day and it has been super. 
Even though it was marketed as a 4 rail unit, it has stood up very very stable @ 24/7 365 use. Even back then with shitloads of fans, an about 6-8 HDD's, but now just 5 Hdds{no IDE connector!!} 

My current range = *12v *12.21-12.12, *5v *5.07-5.03, *3.3v *3.40-3.36 
I just this week sprang for the SS X-750 Gold since I got it for $109 FS!
Only reason is I getting a little coil whine at times and dont want to take any chances loosing our new hardware, it's gotta outlast me !
And save some $$$ since I may to go on Disabiailty

I had my heart set on the XFX 750 XXX Edition, but this was a Gold, and cheaper. Ripple and noise was my biggest peave.


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## gopal (Jul 10, 2012)

Boy How long it took to type!


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## Durvelle27 (Aug 5, 2012)

Kentek KTPS850 is it good ?


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## cdawall (Aug 11, 2012)

I can tell you know just off of the amp ratings.


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## Durvelle27 (Aug 11, 2012)

cdawall said:


> I can tell you know just off of the amp ratings.



ok thx it is or its not ?


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## cdawall (Aug 11, 2012)

Durvelle27 said:


> ok thx it is or its not ?



Big thumbs down from me.


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## Durvelle27 (Aug 11, 2012)

cdawall said:


> Big thumbs down from me.



ok thx


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## margaret21 (Aug 22, 2012)

panchoman said:


> snipped for brevity, no need to quote the entire first post - Mussels



great...your post gives so much information on psu..thanks for this


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## mDee (Jan 8, 2013)

My fancy Seasonic X-560 died on me after only 11 months.  It'll work for two to three hours before cutting out and then it won't turn on for about a day.  Had to go back to my 5 year old Nexus 500W (made by FSP). 

I think I'll actually go back to FSP and get one of their 80-plus gold Aurum units; quiet, efficient, and very affordable.


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## Frick (Jan 8, 2013)

mDee said:


> My fancy Seasonic X-560 died on me after only 11 months.  It'll work for two to three hours before cutting out and then it won't turn on for about a day.  Had to go back to my 5 year old Nexus 500W (made by FSP).
> 
> I think I'll actually go back to FSP and get one of their 80-plus gold Aurum units; quiet, efficient, and very affordable.



RMA it, it's pretty much new. It can and does happen to every single manufacturer of everything.


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## Darrel (Feb 14, 2013)

*Looking to upgrade my PSU*

So i have been using this Coolermaster Silent Pro 700W Modular PSU since 2010 (22/07/2010 to be exact).

I frequently overclock CPU/GPU with it, I'm not sure how much headroom i might have left using a 700w but i have had OC'ing failures causing the settings to revert to default more than a few times.

These are my specs.
Asus Crosshair IV Formula 890FX MB
AMD FX 8350 8 Core Black Edition Vishera @ 4.2Ghz
GeForce GTX 680 OC'd @ 1242Mhz
8GB XMS3 DDR3 RAM @ 2000Mhz.

I guess thats the most important specs to note.

Can anyone advise a decent upgrade? Budget £120, will to go slightly higher if you can justify cost vs gain! Really appreciate any feedback!


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## EarthDog (Feb 14, 2013)

You shouldnt be remotely close to 700W... Its a 200W card + 20% for overclocking, your CPU is 125W + 100W for overclocking, then tack on another 100W for board/ram/fans/etc. If the PSU is functioning properly, you have 200W of headroom really on the 12v rail (since it only has 600W there).

That said, Im not sold on that PSU being quality. Have you looked it up at jonnyguru?


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## Darrel (Feb 14, 2013)

*Looking to upgrade my PSU*



EarthDog said:


> You shouldnt be remotely close to 700W... Its a 200W card + 20% for overclocking, your CPU is 125W + 100W for overclocking, then tack on another 100W for board/ram/fans/etc. If the PSU is functioning properly, you have 200W of headroom really on the 12v rail (since it only has 600W there).
> 
> That said, Im not sold on that PSU being quality. Have you looked it up at jonnyguru?



No i haven't looked it up at jonnyguru before but I will get around to doing just that. I just felt that now I've had it a good while now, the lack of any real issues might signify I was either lucky or that it was time to move on before i outstay my welcome . 

Thanks for putting that in perspective.


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## volshur321 (Feb 18, 2013)

Plz help... i buy corsair 1200i and have buuuzzzzzz/ Go to shop and passed it.  NOw i take Enermax Platimax 1500w  and i have noise(( quiet but have(( electrical noise, itis normal ? (( I do not know what do I need to change it (to 1200-1500 Platinum


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## claylomax (Feb 18, 2013)

volshur321 said:


> Plz help... i buy corsair 1200i and have buuuzzzzzz/ Go to shop and passed it.  NOw i take Enermax Platimax 1500w  and i have noise(( quiet but have(( electrical noise, itis normal ? (( I do not know what do I need to change it (to 1200-1500 Platinum



Yes, the Corsair 1200, although a great psu, suffers from whine/buzz; this is something most reviews won't tell you. I don't know about the Enermax. Why don't you try an Antec or Silverstone? 
http://www.overclock.net/t/805273/do-not-buy-the-corsair-1200ax-psu
http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=113443


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## cdawall (Feb 18, 2013)

claylomax said:


> Yes, the Corsair 1200, although a great psu, suffers from whine/buzz; this is something most reviews won't tell you. I don't know about the Enermax. Why don't you try an Antec or Silverstone?
> http://www.overclock.net/t/805273/do-not-buy-the-corsair-1200ax-psu
> http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=113443



The only ones I know that are better for noise are the superflower built ones...


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## Ultra Taco (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi all,

I was wondering if my xfx 550 pro XFX Core Edition PRO550W (P1-550S-XXB9) 550W ATX12...

would be able to handle a 8350 vishera, 7950 single, case with 5 fans, nzxt kraken water cooler and ssd? 

Thank you. I was worried it can not since there are conflicting power wattage calculators on line.


----------



## EarthDog (Apr 3, 2013)

Plenty at stock and overclocked.


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## de.das.dude (Apr 28, 2013)

thought id post this here

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80PlusPowerSupplies.aspx

this lists all the power supplies that are actually 80plus certified. so if you doubt a company, you can check it yourself.


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## silkstone (Apr 28, 2013)

Nice, My PSU manufacturer is there with a respecatble 69 80+ certified. Everyone thinks they are crap


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## de.das.dude (Apr 28, 2013)

being there does not warranty quality. only efficiency is guaranteed 
corsair cx series is 80plus certified as well, but, it uses very cheap components.


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## silkstone (Apr 29, 2013)

My current PSU uses Taiwanese Caps, I believe. Not as good as the Japanese ones you get in seasonic PSU's, but apparently, the build quality is pretty good.


----------



## de.das.dude (Apr 29, 2013)

it all depends. just google for your caps name and model and you will know from some forum if its good or bad.


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## light70 (May 15, 2013)

Hi there!


I need some suggestions, I was thinking to buy a corsair CX750M but I have just discovered that it has a some problems expecially the coil whine one and it seems to afflict an high percentuality of the CX750M. So I'm actually looking for a power supply to be modular, of 750w with just one +12v line of current and to be cheap. I have found the thermaltake smart 750 which is what I'm locking for but it's a little more expensive of the corsair CxX750M, is there something else out there??


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 15, 2013)

light70 said:


> Hi there!
> 
> 
> I need some suggestions, I was thinking to buy a corsair CX750M but I have just discovered that it has a some problems expecially the coil whine one and it seems to afflict an high percentuality of the CX750M. So I'm actually looking for a power supply to be modular, of 750w with just one +12v line of current and to be cheap. I have found the thermaltake smart 750 which is what I'm locking for but it's a little more expensive of the corsair CxX750M, is there something else out there??



I've used a 750cx and I had and my cousin now has no issues with it .
I just use corsair psu  now on all builds and no issues yet.


----------



## light70 (May 15, 2013)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I've used a 750cx and I had and my cousin now has no issues with it .
> I just use corsair psu  now on all builds and no issues yet.



so I should be ignoring those: 

http://forum.corsair.com/v2/showthread.php?t=115228
http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-1633476/cx750m-making-high-pitched-whine.html
http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=50863
Corsair CX750M coil whine? - YouTube 
http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=117907

and finally: 

*http://forum.corsair.com/FORUMS/showthread.php?t=116308* this is the worst case, I would like to avoid those experience. Also those are preatty much recent post so I doubt that corsair has introduced a newer revision


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## crmaris (May 15, 2013)

Corsair sells a huge volume of PSUs and usually mostly users with bad experience post on the net about their problems. The ones that are satisfied totally forget the PSU and do not of course post around stating that it works fine unless asked.

Also from the moment they cover you with guarantee, which they actually honor, you won't have a problem. Nevertheless, if you want something more reliable go for their TX or HX series (if you can afford it).


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## de.das.dude (May 15, 2013)

Corsair FTW, one of the handful companies who actually make quality stuff AND sincerely care for their customers as  well!

depending on the use you may get a modular CX series. they work good enough.
GS series is good, but not modular.


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## light70 (May 15, 2013)

de.das.dude said:


> Corsair FTW, one of the handful companies who actually make quality stuff AND sincerely care for their customers as  well!
> 
> depending on the use you may get a modular CX series. they work good enough.
> GS series is good, but not modular.



a user report that after his fallen power supply was sent back, corsair send him back 2 replacing units that were defectves as well. I would not say that corsair this is taking care of clients!


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## d1nky (May 15, 2013)

i was told the GS series wasnt too good! actually i was told to stay away from it. 

xfx = seasonic inside....


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## light70 (May 16, 2013)

Let me understand one thing, let's say I get the corsair CX750M and it doesn't have the coil whine problem immediadly, then is possibile that the problem could appear with time? I mean in the next mounths. I would like to have something that actually works for some times!!


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## cdawall (May 16, 2013)

light70 said:


> a user report that after his fallen power supply was sent back, corsair send him back 2 replacing units that were defectves as well. I would not say that corsair this is taking care of clients!



Then buy something else? It's pretty simple if you are worried after reading bad reviews simply find something else. That's the benefit of having choices.


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## light70 (May 16, 2013)

cdawall said:


> Then buy something else? It's pretty simple if you are worried after reading bad reviews simply find something else. That's the benefit of having choices.



the problems is that all 750 seems to have problems, the ocz zt750 seems good but I have discovered that it soffers of hard noisy fan and need to be replaced ( also it seems that RMA send you back very often a PSU with the exact same problem ). The thermaltake smart 750 has no particolar problem but on 2 different review the articles states that their units had excedeed the 40°C degree point listed on the box under full load and arrive to 50°C which is not that great. If you know a good PSU of 750w, one line of current on the 12v, modular and of about 80 euro/100 us dollars...link at me!


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## cdawall (May 16, 2013)

light70 said:


> the problems is that all 750 seems to have problems, the ocz zt750 seems good but I have discovered that it soffers of hard noisy fan and need to be replaced ( also it seems that RMA send you back very often a PSU with the exact same problem ). The thermaltake smart 750 has no particolar problem but on 2 different review the articles states that their units had excedeed the 40°C degree point listed on the box under full load and arrive to 50°C which is not that great. If you know a good PSU of 750w, one line of current on the 12v, modular and of about 80 euro/100 us dollars...link at me!



No the exhaust temp of 50C has nothing to do with the box stating 40C. All that means is that the powersupply is rated to deliver a continuous 750W with intake temperatures of 40C. Exhaust temps that reach 50C is pretty standard.


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## Frick (May 16, 2013)

@light70: Coil whine can appear over time. With any unit. People fall through the net for all companies. As crmaris said, few sad customers vs tons and tons of happy customers. If you like the Tt Smart, get that.


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## light70 (May 16, 2013)

Frick said:


> @light70: Coil whine can appear over time. With any unit. People fall through the net for all companies. As crmaris said, few sad customers vs tons and tons of happy customers. If you like the Tt Smart, get that.



I see, it seems that the ocz zt750 has a protection for that as the 2 main bobins are fixed with somethings that seems white glues, I have red this on a review on overclocker, I have included the photo. The review states:





> Notably lacking is a MOV or TVS diode for surge protection. The aPFC unit can soak up many surges that would kill older designs, but I would still prefer to see some form of surge protection.



But still a lot of people reporting loud noise from the fan...arghhhh no one is decent!!


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## cdawall (May 16, 2013)

Then buy the thermaltake it meets all of your needs. A 50C exhaust temp is not a reason to discredit a powersupply...


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## light70 (May 16, 2013)

cdawall said:


> Then buy the thermaltake it meets all of your needs. A 50C exhaust temp is not a reason to discredit a powersupply...



techpowerup review refer to the temperature inside the box not at the outside fan. 



> Finally, if the manufacturer states that the maximum operating temperature of the test unit is only 40°C then we try to stay near this temperature, otherwise we crank up the heat inside the hotbox up to 45-50°C.



so not that good..


----------



## cdawall (May 16, 2013)

light70 said:


> techpowerup review refer to the temperature inside the box not at the outside fan.
> 
> 
> 
> so not that good..



That means that they pushed 50C air INTO the PSU. That has absolutely nothing to do with PSU quality. In fact it passed those tests with 50C intake air without an issue so what are you complaining about? Do you plan to force 50C air into your powersupply? Even in the desert I do not force 122F air into my case.


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## light70 (May 16, 2013)

cdawall said:


> That means that they pushed 50C air INTO the PSU. That has absolutely nothing to do with PSU quality. In fact it passed those tests with 50C intake air without an issue so what are you complaining about? Do you plan to force 50C air into your powersupply? Even in the desert I do not force 122F air into my case.



Well I guess you right anyway during summer it get very hot, in my room 28°C are reach in no time! Anyway I was thinking: I have seen 3 photos, one of the open CX750M, one of the thermaltake smart 750 and finally one of the TX750m. The first 2 are build from the same manufacturer ( CWT ) and both have coils inside without protection ( the reason of coil whine is that the coil is unprotected and then it vibrate generating that loud sound ) while the TX750 has a plastic protection on it to avoid the vibration. So maybe it's better to go to the TX750 because it won't vibrate with the protection, the others 2 are essentialy the same and could start makiing loud sonds with time! What do you think??


EDIT: Maybe I have found something else, the aerocool x-strike 800w, it seems good to me, it even has coil protected with gum!


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## silkstone (May 18, 2013)

How does this look?
http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.playwares.com/xe/20787215

I have the 700 W version; it should be able to power 2x 7870 Tahiti's, right?
http://www.acbel.com/eng/Product.aspx?id=60&&sd=31&&pid=256


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## Frick (May 18, 2013)

silkstone said:


> How does this look?
> http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.playwares.com/xe/20787215
> 
> I have the 700 W version; it should be able to power 2x 7870 Tahiti's, right?
> http://www.acbel.com/eng/Product.aspx?id=60&&sd=31&&pid=256



I have no idea, McSteel or someone should know. I did find this review of an older unit though:

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/AcBel-Polytech-iPower-660-Power-Supply-Review/552/7

Which can't do anything above 40C.

But again that is an old unit, maybe things have changed now.


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## silkstone (May 18, 2013)

Frick said:


> I have no idea, McSteel or someone should know. I did find this review of an older unit though:
> 
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/AcBel-Polytech-iPower-660-Power-Supply-Review/552/7
> 
> ...



Yea, that's one of the s***ty old i-power units. They were pretty bad. I had one and it lasted about 3-4 years close to 100% load and the 12v line finally failed.


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## westom (May 18, 2013)

light70 said:


> ... ( the reason of coil whine is that the coil is unprotected and then it vibrate generating that loud sound ) ...


  That 'protection' is irrelevant.  We made power supplies including making those coils.  The coil is wrapped.  Then placed into a vacuum.  Then a sealant (ie varnish) enters.  Vacuum sucks varnish into all empty coil spaces.  Thereby locking each wire in place.

  Sometimes varnish does not get into some spaces.  The wire vibrates.  And makes noise.  That says nothing about and does not affect power supply reliability.  That noise is only an irritation.

  Nothing outside a coil will avert that noise.


  All computer parts must work perfectly fine and happy in any 40 degree C room. Which means internal temperatures are higher (and normal).

   Heat is how to find defects.  Many see a defect, then assume heat created it.  Nonsense.  Heat is a diagnostic tool to find a hardware defective (an intermittent) BEFORE that defect causes a hard failure after the warranty expires.  If it fails in a 40 degree C room, then it was probably defective when manufactured.


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## de.das.dude (May 18, 2013)

weird thing, my power went off for a second and came back(they might have switched grids)
i was just browsing the internet, and nothing happened! all the lights and stuff went off and on, even the TV, but my CPU managed to live off just the charge in the caps?


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## d1nky (May 18, 2013)

lol thats the extreme mobo you have!


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## McSteel (May 19, 2013)

silkstone said:


> How does this look?
> http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=es&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.playwares.com/xe/20787215
> 
> I have the 700 W version; it should be able to power 2x 7870 Tahiti's, right?
> http://www.acbel.com/eng/Product.aspx?id=60&&sd=31&&pid=256





Frick said:


> I have no idea, McSteel or someone should know. I did find this review of an older unit though:
> 
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/AcBel-Polytech-iPower-660-Power-Supply-Review/552/7
> 
> ...



Now I feel called out 

The older unit Frick linked to is not entirely relevant in this case. That design (PC7016) may be similar to the one used in the iPower 85H 750 (PCA011), but the latter has been tweaked so as to hold up even at 50°C intake (even though that's not AcBel's official standing).

700W is nearing the platform's design limits, with 12V hitting ~95mV of R/N and drooping to ~11.7V. However, it is sufficient for 2x "HD7930", even in GPGPU 100% usage (like cryptocurrency mining or something useful). Longevity might be an issue, since the PSU uses a grabbag approach to filter caps - you may find Teapo, Aishi, Ltec, Elite, Lelon, all depending on the batch and your luck. That paired with a Yate Loon sleeve bearing fan could mean that you shouldn't leave your rig unattended, and that you should probably pay extra attention to dust buildup in the PSU. The minor rails are completely overlooked in this PSU, so don't load them with more than 15A if you don't really have to. 5VSB is perfectly fine even with over 3A, though.

Other than the caveats above, your PSU is adequate for the task.



silkstone said:


> Yea, that's one of the s***ty old i-power units. They were pretty bad. I had one and it lasted about 3-4 years close to 100% load and the 12v line finally failed.



The 85H is a "retail adaptation" of what AcBel makes for Dell desktops. Though Dell uses LiteOn and Hipro as well, and sometimes Delta in their home/light gamer machines.


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## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

McSteel said:


> Now I feel called out
> 
> The older unit Frick linked to is not entirely relevant in this case. That design (PC7016) may be similar to the one used in the iPower 85H 750 (PCA011), but the latter has been tweaked so as to hold up even at 50°C intake (even though that's not AcBel's official standing).
> 
> ...




That's a great summary, thanks for spending the time on it. I understand much clearer now. There were a couple of other reviews of the unit, one Chinese, and one local.
But, I didn't feel too confident about their reliability.

By the minor rails, you mean the +5v and +3.3v?

I'm running 1x SSD, 2X HDD and 1x Laptop HDD along with the overclocked i5 and motherboard. 
Would that be putting much load on the minor rails? I'm not fully sure what uses the 3.3v and 5v rails apart from the cpu.

My main concern is the safety. If it dies, I don't mind grabbing another as they are about 1/2 the price of equally rated seasonic/corsiar etc. units here. (They are only sold at a few places for a big markup) But, I don't want to have to worry about it taking out the other components. It's kind of why I went back to them as my old (crappy one) failed gracefully and just stopped being able to accept a high load on the 12v rail. From what I read, the safety seems fine, but I'm a little worried about the 5v rail now.


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## McSteel (May 19, 2013)

Yes, by "minor rails" I mean 3V3 and 5V ones. 3V3 is used primarily by RAM, some GPUs even use it for their own VRAM, and by some PCI/PCI-E expansion cards, mainly for minor logic ICs. 5V is used by HDD/ODD logic, USB devices, major logic ICs (audio, network, PCI-E switchers, TV, modem, etc), SSD logic and memory, and signaling diodes. CPU uses 12V exclusively as of s478/s462 era, as do PCI-E VGAs. Some AGP cards use 5V, but they're not exactly "big spenders".

With what you have, you won't see more than about 40W total 5V + 3V3 load, worst case. So no worries there. Large RAID arrays and a forest of USB devices can get the minor rails usage pretty high in some cases, but that's way under 1% of the population.

As for safety, AcBel typically makes a point of it. And even though the model you're using has Weltrend's protection/control ICs (as opposed to superior Silicon Touch and Sitronix parts), it will not fry your components if and when it goes out.


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## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

Thanks for that. Makes it much clearer. I've been thinking of getting an extra 2TB WD Green, but then I will probably pull out the (failing) 500GB drive too.

I guess that I should open the thing up, give it a good clean, and replace the fan as soon as it is out of warranty. I used to be a smoker and I live in a dusty city, my computer regularly gets clogs up with dust.


----------



## de.das.dude (May 19, 2013)

d1nky said:


> lol thats the extreme mobo you have!



how come? bigger mobo does mean bigger consuption right? 

im guessing the voltage didnt totally drop to 0, it just went to 90-100v and then back up.


----------



## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

de.das.dude said:


> how come? bigger mobo does mean bigger consuption right?
> 
> im guessing the voltage didnt totally drop to 0, it just went to 90-100v and then back up.



Yea, Good PSU's can handle extremely brief power outages, just as long as you aren't doing anything extreme on your PC.

You really should invest in a UPS with dodgy power as it'll start to kill the PSU. I've had lots of things in my house die from dirty power.
Luckily, the apartment I've been living in for the last 5 years or so has a decent electrical system, so I don;t have to worry any more, but we still get random power outages.


----------



## de.das.dude (May 19, 2013)

no dodgy power...
just a grid change or two.


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## westom (May 19, 2013)

silkstone said:


> Good PSU's can handle extremely brief power outages, just as long as you aren't doing anything extreme on your PC.


  Describe a part at risk when  a PC is doing something 'extreme'.  And define 'extreme'.

    Posted previously was how so many *knew* heat was destructive.  Speculation said so.  Many did not learn that heat is a diagnostic tool to identify an already defective part. Many would blame heat rather than the previously defective part.

  This 'extreme' concept is also 'subjective'.  Speculation exists when one did not learn by actually measuring current - learning the numbers.  What number defines 'extreme'?

  What part is 'destroyed' by dodgy power?  And what is dodgy power?  Another subjective claim; devoid of perspective - the numbers.  Anything that UPS might do to protect a power supply is already inside a PSU.  Otherwise normal power cycling would also cause hardware failures.

  This UPS outputs pulses that peak at 70% higher than AC RMS voltages.  Those pulses are why a UPS is potentially harmful to motors.  Same pulses are ideal power for all electronics.  The anomaly put into perspective with numbers.  How does that UPS protect hardware when it output so 'dirty' power?

  Why did a power interruption not affect that computer?  A requirement defined by specifications that existed even with the original IBM PC.  Specifications require a computer to be more robust than other electronics.

  Long before recommending a solution, first define the anomaly with numbers.  Many boxes are recommended to only do what is already solved inside electronics.  Dodgy and extreme require perspective - defined by numbers.  Exactly what part is at risk from dodgy or extreme?


----------



## de.das.dude (May 19, 2013)

westom said:


> Describe a part at risk when  a PC is doing something 'extreme'.  And define 'extreme'.
> 
> Posted previously was how so many *knew* heat was destructive.  Speculation said so.  Many did not learn that heat is a diagnostic tool to identify an already defective part. Many would blame heat rather than the previously defective part.
> 
> ...




 that is some deep shit yo


----------



## westom (May 19, 2013)

de.das.dude said:


> that is some deep shit yo


  How to quickly identify a scam.  That recommendation did not say why.  And provided no numbers.  That's basic layman knowledge.  At least with layman who quickly identify and avoid myths and cons.


----------



## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

westom said:


> Describe a part at risk when  a PC is doing something 'extreme'.  And define 'extreme'.
> 
> Posted previously was how so many *knew* heat was destructive.  Speculation said so.  Many did not learn that heat is a diagnostic tool to identify an already defective part. Many would blame heat rather than the previously defective part.
> 
> ...



I don't know what you are on, but can I have some?

By extreme, I mean high load. For example video encoding, gaming, etc.

UPS also generally eliminate noise, spikes, surges and lightning strikes that can hurt sensitive electronics.

Furthermore, I've had 3 hard drives fail due to power outages causing the PC to lose power.

If you want to pay me to spend time formulating a thesis and doing objective testing, you'll have to pay me. Until then, you are gonna get 'subjective' talk.

Tell me what colour the sky is in an objective, with experimental data and references, tell me how long it takes you. Then you'll understand the absurdity of your post.


----------



## Frick (May 19, 2013)

Uh, gaming or encoding isn't extreme. I'd say extreme is when you push the PSU beyond it's rating for prolonged periods of time.


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## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

Hi - load then. If you're drawing a high amount of power and the power goes out for a millisecond, then your computer is more likely to reset than when you are drawing a lower amount of power. Maybe extreme was the wrong word, but it's late here and I couldn't think of a different way to say it.

[Edit] - Try it, I have, in the past. Run OOCT and flick the power switch on and off real quick, you PC will probably loose power. Do it while sitting at the desktop and your pc will not bat an eyelid.


----------



## westom (May 19, 2013)

silkstone said:


> By extreme, I mean high load. For example video encoding, gaming, etc.
> 
> UPS also generally eliminate noise, spikes, surges and lightning strikes that can hurt sensitive electronics.


  Many power supply parts suffer less stress when load increases.  Unfortunately that hard reality is contrary to speculation that assumes more power means more strain.

  Learn from numbers.  Changes you have assumed are major are actually small.  Most of the power consumed by a computer occurs both when doing 'extreme' and when doing nothing.

  So which part suffers significantly increases stain during gaming?  And why?

  UPS does not eliminate noise, spikes, surges, lightning strikes, etc.  However if you know otherwise, then post specification numbers that say so.  Your subjective claims have no merit without hard facts - ie numbers.  Some of the worst noise and spikes seen by a computer are generated by a UPS.  Also why a UPS may harm an electric motor or power strip protector.

  You have only assumed disk drives destroyed by a power loss.  How does power loss differ from power off?  It doesn't.  To a disk drive, all power offs look exactly same.

  Now had you said which part in each drive was damaged, then maybe the claim had merit.  Speculated was power loss caused damage. A conclusion based only in observation is classic junk science.  You used same speculation to assume a UPS does 'cleaning' that the manufacturer even does not claim.  That speculation is mostly found where advertising replaces hard science.

  Since you know 'extreme' means more stress, then describe which part is being stressed.  And why a UPS averts that stress.  Since you know power loss damaged disk drives, then explain why same power off (called shutdown) did not do that damage.  Since you know a UPS does all that power 'cleaning', then let's see those numbers.  Otherwise it's just another myth or con.


----------



## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

westom said:


> Many power supply parts suffer less stress when load increases.  Unfortunately that hard reality is contrary to speculation that assumes more power means more strain.
> 
> Learn from numbers.  Changes you have assumed are major are actually small.  Most of the power consumed by a computer occurs both when doing 'extreme' and when doing nothing.
> 
> So which part suffers significantly increases stain during gaming?  And why?



I am talking about loos of power from the mains, not stress.



westom said:


> UPS does not eliminate noise, spikes, surges, lightning strikes, etc.  However if you know otherwise, then post specification numbers that say so.  Your subjective claims have no merit without hard facts - ie numbers.  Some of the worst noise and spikes seen by a computer are generated by a UPS.  Also why a UPS may harm an electric motor or power strip protector.



A PSU is neither a motor or a power strip. Show me how a UPS harms a power PSU. And show me how they do not regulate noise.




westom said:


> You have only assumed disk drives destroyed by a power loss.  How does power loss differ from power off?  It doesn't.  To a disk drive, all power offs look exactly same.



It damaged the drive as the drive was reading/writing/spinning at the time. With a normal power off, the heads park themselves and the platters stop spinning. With an abrupt power cut they do not. One of the damaged hard disks was on my laptop, as I used to run it without a battery. When the power died, the hard disk got a load of bad sectors that built up with each power cut. I always run it with the battery in now, and never had another problem with the HDD and bad sectors before switching to an SSD. Anecdotal again. But if you want to refute it, you do the tests and risk your own hardware.



westom said:


> Now had you said which part in each drive was damaged, then maybe the claim had merit.  Speculated was power loss caused damage. A conclusion based only in observation is classic junk science.  You used same speculation to assume a UPS does 'cleaning' that the manufacturer even does not claim.  That speculation is mostly found where advertising replaces hard science.



I was not going to open my HDD and forensically examine it, the RMA was more important.



westom said:


> Since you know 'extreme' means more stress, then describe which part is being stressed.  And why a UPS averts that stress.  Since you know power loss damaged disk drives, then explain why same power off (called shutdown) did not do that damage.  Since you know a UPS does all that power 'cleaning', then let's see those numbers.  Otherwise it's just another myth or con.



I never said extreme means more stress. your second point is repetition which I have addressed above.

I understand that the Active PFC is meant to filter out all the nastiness in the power, but when equipment dies, and fuses blow due to power spikes I don't see the problem in adding a second layer of protection.

When switching to battery power, a UPS can be harmful to a PSU, agreed. Some PSUs won't work with certain UPS's. It's why you should buy a decent one.



> Wikipedia
> The primary role of any UPS is to provide short-term power when the input power source fails. However, most UPS units are also capable in varying degrees of correcting common utility power problems:
> 
> Voltage spike or sustained Overvoltage
> ...



http://superuser.com/questions/113113/why-are-brownouts-so-harmful
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3964

I'm really not going to spend any more time looking into it, unless you can show me that a ups is more harmful than "dodgy" input power.

Oh, and where I am the power can be very fickle. You sometimes notice the lights getting brighter or dimmer for periods of time.


----------



## westom (May 19, 2013)

silkstone said:


> It damaged the drive as the drive was reading/writing/spinning at the time. With a normal power off, the heads park themselves and the platters stop spinning. With an abrupt power cut they do not.


 Learn how drives worked even when heads were moved with motor oil.  Every drive (back then and today) first learns about power off when voltage starts dropping.  Only then does it stop writing and park heads.  All power offs (shutdown, yank the power plug, nuclear power plant shutdown) appear same to all disk drives.  If AC power loss causes disk drive damage, then so does shutdown.

  Power loss from mains causes no damage.  International design standards over 40 years ago even demanded it.  All low voltages were defined in a chart that contained this phrase in all capital letters: No Damage Area.

  Low voltage can be harmful to motorized appliances.  Low voltage and AC power loss do not damage electronics.  If you know otherwise, then cite a threatened part.  And manufacturer datasheet that defines that threat.

  Power loss from AC mains does not damage electronics or a disk drive.  As was true over 40 years ago when I was designing or analyzing failures on this stuff (even on one drive that moved head with motor oil).

   Please grasp why a UPS can damage a motor or power strip.  Because 'clean' power from a UPS is often a myth.  Some of the 'dirtiest' power in a building comes from a UPS when in battery backup mode.  That 'dirty' was even defined with numbers.

  Or more facts.  View same from a utility:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp
Figures 1 and 2 demonstrate 'dirty' power from a UPS.  'Dirt' made completely irrelevant because electronics are so robust.

  Active PFC addresses one problem created by electronics.  Active PFC does not filter out 'nasties'.  Which 'nasty' are you referring to?  Numerous anomalies exist.  Each one has a name.   PFC is about electronics doing less harm to AC mains while increasing efficiency. 

  'Nasties' is another "subjective" term often promoted when basic electrical concepts are unknown.

  Why do some PSUs not work with some UPSes?  Figures 1 and 2 from that utility demonstrate the problem.  'Dirty' power does not harm the UPS.  But can confuse active PFC.  So the power supply simply powers off - without any damage.

  Figure 1 and 2 provide numbers that separate myths and hearsay from what actually exists.  UPS does not 'clean' power as hearsay so often claims.  UPS does not protect hardware as is so often promoted by advertising (subjective claims).  Power loss and power off are same and not destructive to every disk drive.

  What did the Wikipedia quote forget to mention?  Anomalies are also made irrelevant by what exists in PSUs.  To say more means each anomaly defined by a number.  Your every concern is based only in subjective reasoning - what also creates junk science.

  UPS does near zero hardware protection.  Sufficient for advertising to claim 100% protection -  subjectively.  Too many are informed by advertising; not by spec numbers and hard facts.  Again, if you know otherwise, then numbers are in every claim.


----------



## westom (May 19, 2013)

silkstone said:


> Oh, and where I am the power can be very fickle. You sometimes notice the lights getting brighter or dimmer for periods of time.


  Normal power for all electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity.  As even defined in international design standards.  Computers are required by ATX standards to be even more robust.

  Meanwhile, dimming lights are sometimes an indicator of a human safety threat.  Fix the reason for dimming rather than cure it with a UPS.


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## silkstone (May 19, 2013)

I don't know. You are one of the only people I know that says power outages can't cause bad sectors and that UPS are bad for a PC.

What UPS are those graphs from. It would be wrong to say that all are the same.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sud...ome.0.57j62l2.7511j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The other thing that my UPS does is allow me to ground my computer, so I don't get shocked every time I touch a metal part, and it grounds my LCD, printer and case individually.

I've not seen objective reasoning either way, apart from running a PSU on a 240v square wave system is a bad idea. So until I do, i'll stick with my anecdotal evidence.

http://www.electrosafe.co.nz/power2.htm

Computer glitches, lockups and hardware damage can be the result of poor power quality. Different types of problems will have different effects on the operation, or even life expectancy of equipment. Spikes, Dropouts, Power Failure or Blackout, Power sag or surge, High frequency noise, Normal and/or Common mode noise are all quality problems that affect the quality of the AC power being supplied. Knowing what these problems are, and what some of the consequences are of having these problems, can help in the process of identifying what can be done to help protect equipment. Some are caused by Lightning, Electrostatic Discharges, Ground Surges and Faulty wiring. With the explosion of computer network technology, computer systems are also susceptible to network and phone line surges, as well as the various power supply surges .

More: http://www.nwasco.com/faqs.cfm?CategoryID=7
More, with a table showing how damage to HDDs can occur: http://www.aelgroup.co.uk/pdf/wp_powqal.pdf
More: http://www.controlledpwr.com/help-regulator-technologies.php
More: http://www.criticalpowerresource.com/9problems.pdf


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## westom (May 19, 2013)

silkstone said:


> I don't know. You are one of the only people I know that says power outages can't cause bad sectors and that UPS are bad for a PC.


  How many designed power supplies?  How many worked on disk drives even a decade before the IBM PC existed?  How many fixed computers by literally tracing each fault to an IC.  Only replacing that defective semiconductor.  And then defined, in design reviews, why that part failed.  We even opened semiconductors to use a microscope; to determine why a failure happened.  How many never did any of this and still make recommendations?  How many read datasheets before concluding?  Or did most recite popular hearsay?

  Well, there was once an 8" floppy drive from Interdata that was designed defectively.  Therefore power on or a transient would corrupt some sectors.  An example of why Interdata did not last very long.  Sector corruptions was unacceptable even that long ago.

  Obviously, irrelevant is which UPS created that Figure 1 an 2 waveform.  Apparently you still miss the point.  A third time: that 'dirty' UPS power and even 'dirtier' UPS power is made irrelevant by circuits already inside all electronics.  Routine is for a UPS to create 'dirtiest' power. Since electronics are already so robust.  To even protect from 'dirtiest' UPS power.

  Many computer 'experts' have no electrical knowledge.  So overseas manufacturers can dump into the market supplies that are missing essential functions.  All they need do is withhold spec sheets.  Then it is legal.  They do so because, as you have demonstrated, so many make claims while not even citing one spec number.  A computer can crash on 'dirty' power because a computer assembler selected defective hardware.  Because that assembler did not even know why every power supply makes even 'dirtiest' UPS power irrelevant.  Because that assembler ignored spec numbers.

  Why are scams so easily promoted?  Immediate suspect a scam when claims are only made subjectively.

  Well, more citations that only made subjective claims.  Meaning no useful facts.  A symptom of junk science reasoning.  Also called advertising or propaganda.

  You claimed subjectively, long ago, what a UPS might do.  Were challenged to provide spec numbers for each claim.  Spec numbers.  How many posts and still no technical numbers?  An example of why so many recommend a UPS to do what even the manufacturer does not claim it does.

  Well one citation did provide some numbers. Its numbers, repeatedly, contract what you have posted.

  Another number was 88.5% of AC power problems were transient related.  Let's add relevant facts.  1) A potentially destructive transient typically occurs once every seven years.  2) A transient that no adjacent UPS even claims to protect from.

  No facts (numbers) demonstrate an adjacent UPS protects hardware. Not even defined is one 'at risk' part.  A fact that must be known BEFORE making a recommendation.   Meanwhile, industry standards say internal protection inside electronics even protect from 'dirtiest' UPS power.  And says so with numbers.

  The concern is a rare transient that can overwhelm that protection.  That solution is different, located elsewhere, is proven by over 100 years of experience, is recommended for all homes, and is only understood by an informed minority.


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## silkstone (May 20, 2013)

A UPS power is only dirty when running on batteries. Even then it is cleaner than the power in this country.

I think the transient event was once every 7 years in the UK. - they also say this;

"In 1974 most ICT equipment used linear power supplies which are largely unaffected by small 
transients and completely immune to most forms of noise. Today most ICT equipment uses switch mode power supplies whose susceptibility to transients and common mode noise is far greater."

Also this from another site: "Spikes and/or surges are sudden increases in voltage that last less than 1/60th of a second. Large spikes can burn or melt electronic components causing instant failure. Repeated “hits” from small spikes gradually erode components and can shorten their useful life. Most spikes originate inside your home or business and are caused by other electric equipment such as when the compressor in your refrigerator kicks on, or when copy machines, laser printers and large motors are turned on and off. A smaller percentage of spikes originate outside your building, caused by lightening strikes, short circuits in electric lines and large equipment used in businesses. While these spikes are less frequent, they tend to be more serious. Lightning strikes to a telephone line, cable TV system or satellite dish also carry voltage spikes. Devices that are connected to more than one wire, such as cordless telephones, answering machines, computer modems and TV’s are especially vulnerable."

"Uninterruptible Power Supplies or UPS provide a battery backup for computers. UPS devices insure power quality during sags and interruptions protecting both data and hardware. Most UPSs provide 10-16 minutes backup time, allowing you time to close files and exit programs. Most UPSs provide surge suppression as well. A UPS must be UL listed. 

Retail outlets usually have a good selection of surge suppressors, and UPSs can be purchased at computer equipment stores. If the information on your computer is valuable, we strongly recommend it be UPS protected. 

REMEMBER –
It is better to be safe than sorry and taking the time to purchase a properly rated surge suppressor when you purchase electronic equipment is money well spent."
(From a public utilities company)

I also found this: http://www.rbs2.com/outage.pdf
Bottom of pg. 33 power company pays out for damaged computer equipment due to power cut.

http://www.rbs2.com/utility.pdf
The guy who wrote that is an electrical engineer and there are a few cases regarding power cuts damaging equipment, some won and some lost.
He acknowledges that irregular input electricity and cuts can harm modern equipment and UPS can protect against damage.

http://www.adrc.com/ckr/hdd_myths.html
"Myth 2: Can Power cuts causes bad sectors ?
Typically, modern hard disk incorporates certain techniques to park the heads wherever there is a power cut. However, severe power surge or unstable power supply could cause electronic or RW head failure which in terms create platter damage or bad sectors. Generally power cuts may just cause logical data corruption."

What numbers do you want? It is difficult to understand.

Losing data and bad sectors being created by sudden power loss is a reality. I'm not going to try to break my drives trying to prove it to you though. There is plenty of evidence out there already.


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## silkstone (May 20, 2013)

Here is a typical electricity pole.







A better organized one.






A montage of various electricity poles.

http://vimeo.com/30252956

There is no load balancing. Nothing is grounded. The neutral wire isn't always properly earthed and there is a too high neutral to earth voltage.

An LA times article about electrical safety here: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/05/world/la-fg-vietnam-safety-20100605

If you don't believe power surges and power cuts can damage hard drives, do an experiment yourself. Turn off the computer at the mains while your disk is reading and writing. Repeat 20 times and then scan for bad sectors. I'm not sure how you would simulate a power surge to test that. But i did find this: http://www.dtidata.com/resourcecenter/2007/08/07/hard-drive-recovery-power-failure-surge-brown-out/
More evidence that power surges can damage HDDs.



You wanted numbers - Here are some numbers from a study done in S.E. Asia: http://www.copper.org.sg/sites/default/files/publications/files/UNEP2012-PQ_0.pdf
Or you can buy this paper: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/logi....ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=343378
another study
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/14957/InTech-Consequences_of_poor_power_quality_an_overview.pdf

And here is an advert - http://chasepower.com.au/documents/Resolve-Power-Quality-Problems-with-a-UPS.pdf

And a technical explanation: http://ecmweb.com/sagsswellsinterruptions/when-does-poor-power-quality-cause-electronics-failures


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## de.das.dude (May 20, 2013)

i live in a metro, so all our power lines/ phonelines are underground.
only the internet and cable lines are overhead.


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## westom (May 23, 2013)

de.das.dude said:


> i live in a metro, so all our power lines/ phonelines are underground.
> only the internet and cable lines are overhead.


  Underground or overhead make no difference to electrical anomalies discussed here.


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## warhammer23 (Jun 17, 2013)

Hi.
I have a Seasonic S12II 500W PSU with 17A+17A.
It's +5 years old.

Currently i have an it an e8400 @ stock + Asus GTX 470 (and minor stuff 4-5 vents , 2 hdds, 1 drv-rw)

I will upgrade to an i7 2600k (with maybe some OC) and an GTX 780.

Will my PSU still be enough to handle the upgrade ?

Thank you.


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## RCoon (Jun 17, 2013)

Get a Bronze or higher rated 650w PSU, 500w isnt gonna cut it.


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## warhammer23 (Jun 17, 2013)

Perfect.

What i wanted to hear to have the final proff to upgrade the psu also.

I tried the extreme site with W calculations , it was on the limit so yeah it's time to upgrade.

I'll go wild and get the 1200w Platinum, i love Seasonics and i will have future proof with it no more upgrades from something like this.
Or the X-1250 one.


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## Aquinus (Jun 17, 2013)

warhammer23 said:


> I'll go wild and get the 1200w Platinum, i love Seasonics and i will have future proof with it no more upgrades from something like this.
> Or the X-1250 one.



Unless you're planning on running 3 or more GPUs, I wouldn't go higher than 1000w. It's just a waste of money otherwise.


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## RCoon (Jun 17, 2013)

Aquinus said:


> Unless you're planning on running 3 or more GPUs, I wouldn't go higher than 1000w. It's just a waste of money otherwise.



This. I got a 1050w Gold PSU for the potential of 3 GPU's.
850w for 2 GPU's, and 650w for 1 GPU. That's my rule of thumb.


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## warhammer23 (Jun 17, 2013)

I know, i also considered going SLI, like getting another 470 or 2 to see how they do because they are dirt cheap.

So if i pay the money i want to spend it once and be over with it for a very long time.
For me a PSU is very important so i could mentally justify my choice and this is my excuse 

Thanks for the info.


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## mDee (Jun 17, 2013)

I've gone through two Seasonic PSUs in under two years. X-560 died and the replacement X-400 Fanless (80 plus platinum) had a very intrusive coil whine. 

Seasonic is obviously a great manufacturer judging by how many people swear by them, so I guess I've just been unlucky.


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## warhammer23 (Jun 17, 2013)

I also got a liitle scared about the 1k Platinum one some bad one it seams we're made.
So decided to get the gold ones. And wiat to see how th 1,2 K Platinum will be.

My series, rock solid and a friedn has the 430w version even older than mine and has a GTX 465 on it. Np in 2 years strong.


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## AlwaysHope (Jun 21, 2013)

I recommend Corsair AX series, I have the 760W model and I got OC my CPU a bit higher and using same stability testing as before with less Vcore than with previous unit (2009' 750W Thermaltake Qfan Toughpower). Very Efficient & I'm happy.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 30, 2013)

nice spam above ... 

back on the topic, anyone has opinion on Chieftec Nitro 80+ bronze 650w? i need a full modular PSU and i hear the manufacturer of those is CWT (channelwell) so same as corsair TX series and some other good PSU, so upside or downside?

its for my main rig in my system spec and i dont plan to crossfire or SLI (since my mobo support only cf  ) maybe a crossfire later but not fan of multigpu, i know i add "only" 50w to my current setup but the GX lite, while being quite good value and silent, isnt modular and not 80+

short mode: i cant find any review ... all i find on google is from Xbitlabs but ends on a 404

thanks in advance


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## Frick (Jul 30, 2013)

Here's the 650W version. Depending on the price it could be worth it. Here it has competition fron Corsair CXM 750W, Be Quiet Pure Power L8 630W, Antec High Current Gamer, Thermaltake Smart, XFX Proseries XXX somethingsomething, CM Silent Pro II, OCZ Silencer MK3 etc etc... Here the Corsair CX600M is like €25 less though.

EDIT:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Chieftec/SPS-750C/

The 750W version.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 30, 2013)

Frick said:


> Here's the 650W version. Depending on the price it could be worth it. Here it has competition fron Corsair CXM 750W, Be Quiet Pure Power L8 630W, Antec High Current Gamer, Thermaltake Smart, XFX Proseries XXX somethingsomething, CM Silent Pro II, OCZ Silencer MK3 etc etc... Here the Corsair CX600M is like €25 less though.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...



well i can get it for tomorrow if i place a order now and i get a huge rebate on it, i can get it for 68.70chf instead of 99.45chf (end of series 2 pieces avaiable)

edit: DUH i didnt noticed tpu has reviewed the 750w since i was google'ing the 650w... next time i will be only after the product name and not the power specification 

Order placed, waiting on the unit to come home


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## EarthDog (Jul 30, 2013)

> next time i will be only after the product name and not the power specification


You would want to stick with the wattage too. Platforms the PSUs are built on can be different with different wattages.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 30, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> You would want to stick with the wattage too. Platforms the PSUs are built on can be different with different wattages.



indeed since it seems the BPS serie from chieftec (the one i ordered) had less or none issues with manufacturing "error" than the SPS serie (the one from the TPU review)


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## EarthDog (Jul 30, 2013)

Cheiftec blows all around really... LOL! The sun shines on a dog's arse every once in a while though if it was 'approved' here...


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 30, 2013)

well at last ... i didnt took a Diablotek or a Viper psu ...

and i noticed the reduction in price was from 119.20chf to 68.70chf in fact xD

(and i didnt got what you wrote on the last post  : not english native speaker  )


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## EarthDog (Jul 30, 2013)

Cheiftec PSUs are normally garbage.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 30, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> Cheiftec PSUs are normally garbage.



well i will see if it last or blast


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## Frick (Jul 30, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> Cheiftec PSUs are normally garbage.



Which is why they have several models, ranging from the sub €30 500W units to these things that are ok. They have garbage in their lineup but not everything is.


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## EarthDog (Jul 30, 2013)

I would still steer away from them if the best they have to offer is this series and it is built off the Corsair GS platform (worst of corsair). This particular offering is ok, but most others are garbage...

I said earlier...  





> Platforms the PSUs are built on can be different with different wattages.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 31, 2013)

Recieved it this morning, the outside quality is on par with my FSP Hexa HE500 80+ B
powder coated feels nice in the hand, the inside is average but at last no heatshrink loosened (and i voided my warranty for that??? am i mad? hum ... maybe...nahhh they wont see i was open unless they have something else to check, other than the sticker on one screw  ) less cable less hassle.

meshed cable = a bit cleaner inside, the only thing who bugs me  it has 2 4+4pin 12v cpu


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## Frick (Jul 31, 2013)

GreiverBlade said:


> Recieved it this morning, the outside quality is on par with my FSP Hexa HE500 80+ B
> powder coated feels nice in the hand, the inside is average but at last no heatshrink loosened (and i voided my warranty for that??? am i mad? hum ... maybe...nahhh they wont see i was open unless they have something else to check, other than the sticker on one screw  ) less cable less hassle.
> 
> meshed cable = a bit cleaner inside, the only thing who bugs me  it has 2 4+4pin 12v cpu



Yes you did void the warranty for no good reason.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 31, 2013)

Frick said:


> Yes you did void the warranty for no good reason.



huhuuu but no biggies


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## silkstone (Jul 31, 2013)

Frick said:


> Which is why they have several models, ranging from the sub €30 500W units to these things that are ok. They have garbage in their lineup but not everything is.



The same is true for my PSU manufacturer.

Companies like that are usually good do buy from if you do your research as you can get a decent unit at a bargain price.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

comparing these two;
Corsair CX Series CX600M 600 Watt vs COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M2 RS620-SPM2E3-US 620W
thoughts 
they are the same price fyi
my focus is on low ripple nothing else


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## silkstone (Aug 1, 2013)

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/CoolerMaster/Silent_Pro_M2_850W/8.html

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/CX600M/9.html


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

well in that review the 850 failed the 12 volt tests.. so should i not get this other unit .. its not the same unit design but is the same manufacturer? hummmmm


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## silkstone (Aug 1, 2013)

I would go with the Corsair. But, I am no expert.


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## Mussels (Aug 1, 2013)

silkstone said:


> I would go with the Corsair. But, I am no expert.



i too, vote corsair.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I wish I could actually test the actual unit.. I wonder how hard it would be.. I live in an area with labs and universities...
ok  back to reality... Ill probably get the local corsair...ok
the m2 ha a little better cabling, two sets of gpu plugs...
still undecided ..
maybe I am asking the wrong question...
If I only need 500 watts of clean power 
what would the best most cost effective choice be?


----------



## Mussels (Aug 1, 2013)

freeboy said:


> I wish I could actually test the actual unit.. I wonder how hard it would be.. I live in an area with labs and universities...
> ok  back to reality... Ill probably get the local corsair...ok
> the m2 ha a little better cabling, two sets of gpu plugs...
> still undecided ..
> ...



my vote will always go to corsair. screw looks, nicer cables and all that - you want a reliable PSU that isnt going to kill your hardware with excessive ripple.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

yep.. I just looked at the rosewill Capstone reviews.. WHAT? sounds like they own this ripple sh$$t for the price.. 99$ for Gold modular 750 watt that tests great! 
Anyone think I should not get Capstone?
i like this 
Rosewill CAPSTONE-650-M 650W Continuous @ 50°C, Intel Haswell Ready, 80 PLUS GOLD
found 
Rosewill CAPSTONE Series CAPSTONE-650-M 650W ATX12...


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## Mussels (Aug 1, 2013)

if its 80+ gold, then spec wise its very high end. i've never heard of the brand before, however.


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## McSteel (Aug 1, 2013)

Rosewill is NewEgg's in-house brand. The Capstone is based on the tried-and-tested SuperFlower Golden Green platform, so it's an excellent choice. If you have the means, go for it.


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## EarthDog (Aug 1, 2013)

Mussels said:


> if its 80+ gold, then spec wise its very high end. i've never heard of the brand before, however.


efficiency has nothing to do with the quality of the psi, note. 

Ask your inhouse, cmaris.


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## BiggieShady (Aug 1, 2013)

silkstone said:


> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/CoolerMaster/Silent_Pro_M2_850W/8.html
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/CX600M/9.html





freeboy said:


> well in that review the 850 failed the 12 volt tests.. so should i not get this other unit .. its not the same unit design but is the same manufacturer? hummmmm



That's right, as a PSU manufacturer Cooler Master is way behind Corsair. From CM I would buy only cases or coolers.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

well, glad I asked. Its invaluable to have the combination reviews and folks here.. now it looks like the best value is RW, Corsair  and ?
several well made kits all under 100 for 650 or less watts... no idea with one graphics card why I would want more today...other than performance under load, ie lower load should be better performance in same line.. thanks again guys and gals


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## EarthDog (Aug 1, 2013)

Rosewill is hit and miss, mostly miss. Lately they have some decent offerings, but across the line recommendations are Corsair and Seasonic without a doubt. There isn't a questionable PSU in the bunch.

As far as higher wattage and lower loads/efficiency, you would be better off saving $20 and buying a lower wattage PSU as far as money goes. The difference in efficiency between 60-80% load on a lot of quality PSU's are 1% and sometimes even less. You will not make up that $20+ unless you run the PC at load for long periods such as F@H/SETI/BOINC.

A QUALITY 500W PSU will happily run ANY single CPU and GPU overclocked on ambient cooling. If you may go SLI, a 750W PSU is PLENTY as well. There is no need for anything more than that for 2 cards. Hell, I ran an overclocked GTX690 with a 4.5GHz 3570K and a Seasonic 550W PSU and the fan barely moved.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

well, my concern is not the day to day, cheap shot works fine there for me, its when I try to post great oc numbers, I have a killer set up with high heat displacement capability, I would hate to waste my efforts and money saving a few dollars in regard to ripple and the other.. this is a fun tester/gamer kit.. a toy to play with not for work.... my oc board setup is 4760k and gigagirl z87x ud4h, some nice faast 2400 ddr3 Ripjaw X from G Skill, and a sr1 shrouded 360 radiator.. and a single water block cpu... windforce gigagirl 660ti OC card... so this ps is just concerned with the  cpu getting clean power, Ill use separate ps for the pump, fans and other gismos on my modded case.... 
so really if im worried about ripple and getting clean power you like corsair and seasonic...
thanks..
remember its a unique build, not just my gaming rig that I will run de tuned and lower the oc...

ok how does this compare to your Sea Sonic  unit?
SeaSonic G Series SSR-550RM 550W
ok
found the above for 80 shipped .. sold.. than ks for the advice guys.. it looks like the Seasonic unit ... its amazing how high this unit tests for he price point...


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## EarthDog (Aug 1, 2013)

The G series from Seasonic are quality units, but on the low end of the Seasonic line. I have the Seasonic X560 which is a class above that I believe.

If you want to know about a specific PSU, I suggest googling like so "name of PSU review, jonnyguru". If he didn't review it, someone asked about it in their forums and knowledgeable members, a lot are PSU reviewers themselves, reply. TPU's reviews are also quality, so are ours (overclockers.com) among few others.

I wouldn't worry about putting your 'pump, fans, and other gismos' on a different PSU. That will not be holding an overclock back, trust me.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

what kind of price did you pay on the x560? im at 80 shipped from amazon, spelled amazing in my book 
lol 
?


----------



## EarthDog (Aug 1, 2013)

I don't recall, probably around $120 though, its a couple years old. I wasnt saying to get it, quite the contrary actually. The GS is a good choice for 99% of users, especially here at TPU where an even smaller % of the population uses 'extreme' (read subambient) cooling.


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## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I like the idea of a safe clean ps for ue on my benchmarks for water cooled sysem.. I am reasonable sure the 80$ shipped seasonic g unit is the ticket


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## EarthDog (Aug 1, 2013)

It will be fine, yes. So will lesser quality models too. Like I said, EXTREME cooling and benchmarking is where that can matter, not ambient water.


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## McSteel (Aug 1, 2013)

Recent Rosewill units a miss, you say... You should read up on a few:

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/881
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=258
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Rosewill-CAPSTONE-550M-Power-Supply-Review/1584/1
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Rosewill/CAPSTONE-750-M/1.html
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=266
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5698/rosewill-capstone-450w-and-650w-80plus-gold
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5698/rosewill-capstone-450w-and-650w-80plus-gold
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Rosewill-HIVE-650-W-Power-Supply-Review/1460
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Rosewill-SilentNight-500-W-Power-Supply-Review/1666
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Rosewill/SilentNight-500/
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Rosewill/Tachyon-1000/
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Rosewill-Tachyon-750-W-Power-Supply-Review/1691
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=329
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Rosewill/FORTRESS-550W/
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Rosewill-FORTRESS-650-Power-Supply-Review/1597
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=306


----------



## freeboy (Aug 1, 2013)

the two units are not equal and do not review as equal, Im not critical, just there is a "concern in a review where one did not outperform the test for rippling.. and at a higher cost for the RW, I chose the Seasonic unit that got hands down the best review for what I want..
next ?


----------



## EarthDog (Aug 2, 2013)

McSteel said:


> Recent Rosewill units a miss, you say... You should read up on a few:
> 
> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/881
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=258
> ...


you may want to read my post again... Thanks for the links supporting it. 

As I said, lately the have been making some decent units. In the past nobody would put any in their worst enemies pc. That is a tough hole to climb out of.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Aug 3, 2013)

ahahahah i start my 2 rigs after the job i see smoke in the whole room, 

i went DAMN i bet its the Nitro ... and it was not xD 

it was the 2nd rig and i found a burnt fan cable and some teeth mark ont the cable sleeves ... duh ... now i need to buy some mousetrap ...


----------



## toecutter (Sep 3, 2013)

Corsair, that's kinda funny lol

I think Seasonic did it to them on purpose... why pay a premium for a name branded on your PSU when you can go directly to the manufacturer who manufactured the unit for Corsair? 

is there really any other choice besides Antec or Seasonic when it comes to PSU's? unlikely...

I just got a Seasonic Platinum 760 for $140 shipped free with a promo code, the Corsair variant is like $200 plus shipping.


----------



## Frick (Sep 3, 2013)

toecutter said:


> is there really any other choice besides Antec or Seasonic when it comes to PSU's? unlikely...



Several.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 4, 2013)

Frick said:


> Several.



made by Seasonic... and rebranded? or just based on their design?



> Sea Sonic Electronics Co., Ltd., is a computer power supply manufacturer and retailer, formerly limited to trading as hardware OEM for other companies. They first made power supplies in 1980s for the Apple II and the IBM PC, and are now known for highly efficient designs. Antec, Corsair Memory, XFX and other computer hardware companies sell power supplies which are rebadged or based on Sea Sonic units. All of their PSUs are certified 80 Plus.
> 
> In 2002, Sea Sonic established a wholly owned subsidiary in California, USA to sell products in the US retail market and to provide technical support.
> 
> Sea Sonic uses electrolytic capacitors from the Japanese Nippon Chemi-Con.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Sonic


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 4, 2013)

toecutter said:


> made by Seasonic... and rebranded?



Usually Seasonic only makes the platform, the brand will add or take away features to fit price points. Some are direct rebrands though.


----------



## cdawall (Sep 4, 2013)

Frick said:


> Several.



PCP&C (by enhance or superflower), Thermaltakes (by CWT), Enermax, super flower themselves, the list goes on if people knew how to shop they could find all kinds of top notch units for cheap.


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 4, 2013)

cdawall said:


> PCP&C (by enhance or superflower), Thermaltakes (by CWT), Enermax, super flower themselves, the list goes on if people knew how to shop they could find all kinds of top notch units for cheap.



http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-oem-manufacturer,2913-4.html

One of the more comprehensive list out there. There are so many decent power supply manufacturers out there you are completely spoilt for choice.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 4, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Usually Seasonic only makes the platform, the brand will add or take away features to fit price points. Some are direct rebrands though.



with a little deeper research one usually finds it is the later, but you still pay a premium.

Corsair monitoring software never seems to leave the Beta stage... Last time I looked Corsair had like 3 Billion in assets, it makes zero sense.

I have a good ole VU meter on an old Cooler Master I am using right now waiting on my Seasonic and it's damn accurate


----------



## toecutter (Sep 4, 2013)

cdawall said:


> PCP&C (by enhance or superflower), Thermaltakes (by CWT), Enermax, super flower themselves, the list goes on if people knew how to shop they could find all kinds of top notch units for cheap.



Enermax are nice I agree but $$$

Superflower are such stripped down Seasonic units it's laughable... and dangerous


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 4, 2013)

toecutter said:


> Enermax are nice I agree but $$$
> 
> Superflower are such stripped down Seasonic units it's laughable... and dangerous



Superflower is a separate company from Seasonic, and they make super good products: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/SuperFlower/SF-1000F14MP/11.html

Don't double post, use edit instead.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 4, 2013)

Seasonic is a shining example of when an ODM no longer has the OEM's noose around its neck... and a benefit to the end user/consumer when it comes to bang for your buck.

heck who else you know in this field that's been in business since 1975? not many...

Now if we could just buy all our junk from the ODM's I wouldn't even care if it had the Chinese writing directly on the case, no more deception right?


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 4, 2013)

toecutter said:


> Seasonic is a shining example of when an ODM no longer has the OEM's noose around its neck... and a benefit to the end user/consumer when it comes to bang for your buck.
> 
> heck who else you know in this field that's been in business since 1975? not many...
> 
> Now if we could just buy all our junk from the ODM's I wouldn't even care if it had the Chinese writing directly on the case, no more deception right?



Why don't you buy FSP's products, or Super Flowers' products or Enermax's products? All of them are both OEMs  (other than Enermax) and have their own line of power supplies too. 

Who else in this since 1975? Well it doesn't really matter, if a company pops out this year and starts providing quality power supplies along with good warranty+customer service, I will be their customer.


----------



## McSteel (Sep 4, 2013)

Delta have been at it since 1971... And they can outdo SeaSonic when they really want to.

SeaSonic are irrefutably good, but they're not exactly the end-all-be-all manufacturer.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 4, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Why don't you buy FSP's products, or Super Flowers' products



I can read 



> The direct competitors include the already mentioned Enermax Platimax 750W / Platimax 850W and the Golden King Platinum design (Kingwin LZP-750) from Super Flower. *The latter offering isn't just questionable in name*, but the missing overcurrent protection and MOV are also a major drawback. As such, we wouldn't put that particular unit in the same category as the Seasonic; Super Flower products in general use cheaper quality.



*Seasonic Platinum Series 860W* - Probably the Best PSU Ever!

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5464/seasonic-platinum-series-860w/6


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 4, 2013)

toecutter said:


> I can read
> 
> *Seasonic Platinum Series 860W* - Probably the Best PSU Ever!
> 
> http://www.anandtech.com/show/5464/seasonic-platinum-series-860w/6



No doubt Seasonic makes very good power supplies, but there are many others which makes equally good and good enough ones.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 4, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> No doubt Seasonic makes very good power supplies, but there are many others which makes equally good and good enough ones.



missing Over Current Protection on a Platinum series? ...more zero sense 

makes one wonder if they paid one lump sum cash for that Plat branding or if it is in installments according to sales figues? that's not "good enough" imo  

EDIT; and a little more on integrated MOV's

Current Technology Surge Protection (TVSS/SPD) Par...
Current Technology Surge Protection (TVSS/SPD) Par...

to run a Super Flower with peace of mind you would need a $200+ sine wave UPS


----------



## Mussels (Sep 4, 2013)

or maybe most people dont live in areas with choice, where i live its corsair or generic shit.


----------



## cdawall (Sep 4, 2013)

toecutter said:


> missing Over Current Protection on a Platinum series? ...more zero sense
> 
> makes one wonder if they paid one lump sum cash for that Plat branding or if it is in installments according to sales figues? that's not "good enough" imo
> 
> ...



So go buy your corsair seasonic rebadge and move on. For me there are more brands to chose from.

You also do not need some rediculous ups to run any of superflowers power supply's they operate well within apec without one. As for ocp guess what its not perfect on corsairs even if it is there so mind your complaints.


----------



## Frick (Sep 4, 2013)

toecutter said:


> I can read
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dethroned according to Jonnyguru.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=352

But seriously, there are litteral shitloads of good PSU's, as have been stated, from various OEMs. Here's one from ATNG.

EDIT: About UPS's: Some areas almost need those because they have sucky power. Here in the Civilized world we do not.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

cdawall said:


> So go buy your corsair seasonic rebadge and move on.



ahem... read the last page or two of the topic atleast 

I already ordered a Seasonic Platinum 760W for $140 and some change including free shipping. You can't beat that deal with a hammer! unfortunately the Newegg promotion ended Sept 2nd, the day I ordered... so you're out of luck if you want creme dela creme at that kind of price.

it's only $165 plus shipping now though...





Frick said:


> Dethroned according to Jonnyguru.
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=352


nothing more than a 750 is needed in my sweet spot with draw on two GTX770's and a SB-E platform, I actually could have went lower...

I really wanted that Antec believe me... but they didn't have that model you linked to in 750 watt, it would be on it's way here instead.



> About UPS's: Some areas almost need those because they have sucky power. Here in the Civilized world we do not.


if you buy a cheap UPS you're not going to get pure sine wave, it'll be a modified square... no matter what grid you are on UPS serves the first purpose of being a backup in case of power failure. We get those in the civilized world to ya know 

alot of PSU manufactures do not recommend you run a modified square wave UPS with their unit... any unit worth a s*** anyway. Other manufacturers just won't bother to specify eg; Super Flower, because of their missing components you better be running a line conditioning device or sine wave UPS which provides that conditioning for you.


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

I spent $120 on my antec tpq-1200. So like I said keep your seasonic and move one. Better deals exist even on platinum models (rosewill 1200w superflower rebadge for $100 on sale).

Seasonic and corsair are not the best things in existence so no one cares about your seasonic boner.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

cdawall said:


> I spent $120 on my antec tpq-1200. So like I said keep your seasonic and move one. Better deals exist even on platinum models (rosewill 1200w superflower rebadge for $100 on sale).
> 
> Seasonic and corsair are not the best things in existence so no one cares about your seasonic boner.



man I really got your panties in a knot didn't I?  

I went fully modular and Platinum series...


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> man I really got your panties in a knot didn't I?
> 
> I went fully modular and Platinum series...
> 
> http://content9.flixster.com/photo/99/47/69/9947699_gal.jpg



Good for you? You managed to purchase something with added resistance, a higher cost and lower capability. You must be immensely proud.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

cdawall said:


> Good for you? You managed to purchase something with added resistance, a higher cost and lower capability. You must be immensely proud.


umkay 

the pros don't agree... mind explaining the tech details?

or do you just want to troll?


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> umkay
> 
> the pros don't agree... mind explaining the tech details?
> 
> or do you just want to troll?



Mind finding me a review that shows you 760w seasonic being capable of outputting more than my TPQ-1200?

or do you want to continue sticking your foot further into your mouth?


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 5, 2013)

Ok I think that's enough bickering! toecutter is obviously a big fan of Seasonic (not that its a bad thing), cda obviously can't be bothered with brand as long as they meet an unspecified quality. Now can we move on?


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

Seventeam FTW


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

do I need 1200 watts? absolutely not...

now would you mind showing me a TPQ 750 or 760 capable of Platinum efficiency and full modular cables for $140 and free shipping?

you obviously do not know much about finding the correct power supply for ones rated draw in watts...

no bickering here... Seasonic, Antec and Enermax *ARE* the be-all-end-all of PSU manufacturers, end of story.

now if Super Flower teehee was made in USA they may merit my attention. If I wanted or even needed a 1200 watt or even an 850 watt power supply with two GTX770's I would have went with Antec's HCP.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

cdawall said:


> Mind finding me a review that shows you 760w seasonic being capable of outputting more than my TPQ-1200?
> 
> or do you want to continue sticking your foot further into your mouth?



excuse me mr/ms troll... did I ever claim this?

no I did not, so stop putting words in people mouths and setting your own undefined standards 

you must be a pro over at trolls paradise "Above Top Secret"

sorry you have buyers remorse... you can take your over powered and under efficient antique unit and stick it where the sun don't shine baby


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> excuse me mr/ms troll... did I ever claim this?
> 
> no I did not, so stop putting words in people mouths and setting your own undefined standards
> 
> ...



Its more efficient at the roughly 700w my pc uses than your unit is. Luckily I am fully capable of reading reviews before speaking.







You don't plan on being a member of tpu long do you? I think calling members who helped write the guide you are in 5-6 years ago trolls is a bad idea 



toecutter said:


> now if Super Flower teehee was made in USA they may merit my attention. If I wanted or even needed a 1200 watt or even an 850 watt power supply with two GTX770's I would have went with Antec's HCP.



This statement alone is enough for me to no longer consider reading you posts. You do understand Antec, Corsair and Enermax are only assembled in the united states at the most.

Seasonic and Enermax are local to Taiwan just FYI. Antec and Corsair are California companies, but if you are dense enough to think they were "made in the USA" you should probably quit at life.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

according to your laughable AMD specs (no offense) but you do not need 1200 watts.

your unit is drawing more at idle and under load even because you didn't match your power supply correctly... or you did in 2008 when that model was released.






I bet you don't even know what that "shortcut" and solution to a missing much needed and preferred component is doing on your premium Antec PSU?

In computer terms... even 3 years old is a dinosaur! the seasonic unit I bought is a refresh of a 2-1/2 year old design, it's also Haswell ready... blows the pants off your 1200 TRX (tyrannosaurus rex) in efficiency and is better matched to the setup you are running.

I am Intel and nVidia all the way, therefore it is quite obvious I am a little more serious about my system than shaving a buck.


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 5, 2013)

Thank you very much for your participation of continued arguments, warnings given, lets move on shall we?


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> according to your laughable AMD specs (no offense) but you do not need 1200 watts.



I take it you do not overclock with Dry Ice or LN2? I have with this basic system popped the OCP (over current protection so your not confused) on an Antec 850w unit. That was with an air cooled TEC on a Phenom II and some reasonably overclocked 7950's. This powersupply is setup for this system and extreme overclocking, that's what I do.



toecutter said:


> your unit is drawing more at idle and under load even because you didn't match your power supply correctly... or you did in 2008 when that model was released.



Idle? So you *assume* my unit is running at idle huh. I actually own a PC that runs a wee bit less wattage I use for day to day activities.



toecutter said:


> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules/NDReviews/images/AntecTPQ1200/DSCF2095.JPG
> 
> I bet you don't even know what that "shortcut" and solution to a missing much needed and preferred component is doing on your premium Antec PSU?



You do understand they use those on most high end/high watt units, but instead of placing them inside of the unit they equipped them on the cables themselves. Actually your brand of choice them pretty consistently on high watt units, as does delta and super flower.



toecutter said:


> In computer terms... even 3 years old is a dinosaur! the seasonic unit I bought is a refresh of a 2-1/2 year old design, it's also Haswell ready... blows the pants off your 1200 TRX (tyrannosaurus rex) in efficiency and is better matched to the setup you are running.



If you look at the review again side by side with yours it doesn't blow its pants off. In fact in multiple occasions it performs worse. Such as at 700w, the 12v CL (crossload) test, and sits within 2% for efficiency throughout the rest of testing. 



toecutter said:


> I am Intel and nVidia all the way, therefore it is quite obvious I am a little more serious about my system than shaving a buck.



Ah you must be a little bit more serious since I am one of those silly AMD owners. Lets not mention the fact I have a bit of stock in the company and use both systems, but hey Mr. NewGuy most know all about every member. :shadedshu

Keep at it and see how long you stay at TPU.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

time to sell those stocks...   

_peace_


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> time to sell those stocks...
> 
> _peace_



Negative. Remember AMD's custom built units are being used in two big ticket xmas items


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

AMD? ...never heard of em

the last ATI product I owned (and still have sitting in my collection) is a Rage Fury Maxx, it only liked Quake 3.


----------



## Frick (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> do I need 1200 watts? absolutely not...
> 
> now would you mind showing me a TPQ 750 or 760 capable of Platinum efficiency and full modular cables for $140 and free shipping?
> 
> ...



I don't understand what you're saying. Seasonic, Antec (who manufactures squat btw) and Enermax are the top dogs in the 750W Platinum Fully Modular Free Shipping for $140 category? What if I need 1000W and have $1000 to spend? Or what if I need 500W and have $50 to spend?

EDIT: I honestly don't know what you're arguing about anymore.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

Frick said:


> I honestly don't know what you're arguing about anymore.



I am not arguing, I am responding to words being put in my mouth from cdwall.

Seasonic manufactures Antec units with antec's design specs and additions (or subtractions) in the sub 1000Watt and sub $300 category why not buy directly from the manufacturer of many others PSU's.

you can do more with a 750 Platinum today in new and updated designs than you can with a 1200 watt 5 year old technology... and do it more safely and efficiently.

when someone puts words in another mouth or makes claims which the other never made... then that is the trademark of a _yes you guessed it_ 

I never even know or cared what PSU unit the other party was running... they obviously do though. You just have to read back a page or two to see who got nasty first.

I don't like nasty people... mama said knock them out!


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> I am not arguing, I am responding to words being put in my mouth from cdwall.
> 
> Seasonic manufactures Antec units with antec's design specs and additions (or subtractions) in the sub 1000Watt and sub $300 category why not buy directly from the manufacturer of many others PSU's.
> 
> ...



In addition to Seasonic. Antec uses CWT, FSP and Delta. Please update your PSU knowledge thanks


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> In addition to Seasonic. Antec uses CWT, FSP and Delta. Please update your PSU knowledge thanks




lol... my knowledge is good enough to know, and good enough to ruffle the right feathers in this thread now isn't it?

I know Antec has other people branding their products, that's why I cut the middle man out and bought from the source.

at a cheaper price to boot


----------



## Frick (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> I am not arguing, I am responding to words being put in my mouth from cdwall.
> 
> Seasonic manufactures Antec units with antec's design specs and additions (or subtractions) in the sub 1000Watt and sub $300 category why not buy directly from the manufacturer of many others PSU's.
> 
> ...



All I know you begun with saying something wrong. Also, at least one of them old 1200W units have a 5 year warranty... So they're probably still good, unless you've had it under 100% load 24/7 for 5 years straight.

But this is meaningless.



toecutter said:


> lol... my knowledge is good enough to know, and good enough to ruffle the right feathers in this thread now isn't it?
> 
> I know Antec has other people branding their products, that's why I cut the middle man out and bought from the source.
> 
> at a cheaper price to boot



Like Delta?


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

Delta is nice agreed... but not readily available at Microcenter or BestBuy or Newegg or Amazon for than matter.

I didn't start it... it'll take a reread to see who was offended first... it doesn't matter to me... I know I got one of the best of the bests 

no remorse!!!


----------



## Frick (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> Delta is nice agreed... but not readily available at Microcenter or BestBuy or Newegg or Amazon for than matter.
> 
> I didn't start it... it'll take a reread to see who was offended first... it doesn't matter to me... I know I got one of the best of the bests
> 
> no remorse!!!



Indeed it does not matter. Also, Delta doesn't do consumer PSU's for themselves afaik (anymore). They have server PSU's though. Which is why you don't find them. And the idea that buying directly from the OEM makes them magically better is ... strange.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 5, 2013)

here is a good comparison of what I require for maximum efficiency @ idle and gaming (no LN cooling here, I like my system useable and not just for displaying numbers)

Antec HCP-750 made by Delta, it is a gold rated design and also a discontinued design... you can find it at Amazon for $200 bucks plus shipping. It is not fully modular and didn't get a  "_possibly the best PSU ever"_ rant about it on Anandtec. The HCP-750 had minor design cuts and a flaw or two in theory.

I could have got away with a 650 Seasonic since I only have the single card atm...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4975/antec-hcp-750w-80plus-gold

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004GH6UM0/?tag=tec06d-20

I believe I got a great deal on the Seasonic with its 7 year warranty.



Frick said:


> And the idea that buying directly from the OEM makes them magically better is ... strange.



it doesn't make them magically better... it makes it more beneficial to the end user/consumer by way of lower price. You too would have to read a page or two back to see my statement which you are referring to.

middle man? just say no... the world would be a better place when companies made their capital by what they actually produce instead of market.


----------



## cdawall (Sep 5, 2013)

toecutter said:


> lol... my knowledge is good enough to know, and good enough to ruffle the right feathers in this thread now isn't it?
> 
> I know Antec has other people branding their products, that's why I cut the middle man out and bought from the source.
> 
> at a cheaper price to boot



Antec hasn't used Seasonic for their top tier products in quite a while. Right now they are made by Delta, previously they were made by Enhance.  The only middle man you cut out is Corsair.

Oh and that Delta built Antec unit is actually more efficient than your unit. Testing was done on 230V so no way to know if it is any different stateside.






It doesn't have as stable rails, but they are well within ATX standards.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 5, 2013)

The brand of PSU does not matter. Its all about the OEM. There are only a few PSU vendors that manufacture there own PSUs. The rest are made by contracted 3rd party OEMs. CWT, Flextronics, etc. 

Seasonic makes there own PSUs, and manufactures PSUs for other companies. Corsair, Antec(well did), etc.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 6, 2013)

if I could buy directly from Delta I would, as they are an ODM. but you can't 

so I chose to herald Seasonic as a modern day example and a shining star a few posts back for this reason.

believe me... I am still quite stunned at the unit I got for $140 and some change, I set my limit pretty much at $175 and looking at other units made by different ODM's I wasn't even in to fully modular yet and barely touching platinum with others. 

the Seasonic 760W will run at its sweet spot for effy drawing from two GTX770's when that other card comes to fruition. So I'll be using that Platinum for what it is... not just because it is branded as such.



			
				cdawall; said:
			
		

> Oh and that Delta built Antec unit is actually more efficient than your unit. Testing was done on 230V so no way to know if it is any different stateside.



230v is more efficient period... and I know Antec is made by Delta, therefore Antec is a middle man. Still I include them in my top 3 picks because they are Delta.



> So yeah, 240v is better as you can use thinner wires. There is an increase in efficiency due to the high voltage, but modern power supply use active pfc boosting the voltage to around 400v so it's not that more efficient.


http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24085

the Seasonic SS-760XP2 is 92% rated and I am assuming that is via my country's standard or 230v.

reviews for that particular Antec 750 should show the same 92% +/- at 115v to 230v which like the Seasonic should work from 100v to 240v. But where's the fully modular cables and hybrid fan switch? I guess Antec had Delta cut that expense unless you buy the 850w for about $230 after shipping as these things are not sitting readily available on the shelves.

$165 Vs $230 for the same performance but the $165 gives you a few more options, namingly that fully modular... both PSU's coming from reputable manufacturers. (again I caught mine on sale $140) 

a closer look at the XP2 Platinum also reveals that they are a dual rail design, not multi or single...


----------



## Frick (Sep 6, 2013)

toecutter said:


> it doesn't make them magically better... it makes it more beneficial to the end user/consumer by way of lower price. You too would have to read a page or two back to see my statement which you are referring to.
> 
> middle man? just say no... the world would be a better place when companies made their capital by what they actually produce instead of market.



That would only be true if they were identical, but they are not. They might be _based _on some mobel, but not identical. If we're using seasonic as an example they are just building them for others according to the buyers specs, while making _other _PSU's for themselves. Also Seasonic (as an example) tends to be quite expensive compared to the ones that use Seasonic as the OEM, but that doesn't matter as the PSU's are not identical.

So the argument makes no sense no matter how you put it, and it never has. You can buy whatever PSU you want of course, but don't try to make your choice look like it's somehow factually/morally superior (unless you get to buy something on a nice discount).


----------



## Mussels (Sep 6, 2013)

Frick said:


> You can buy whatever PSU you want of course, but don't try to make your choice look like it's somehow factually/morally superior (unless you get to buy something on a nice discount).



i think this part bears repeating to stop some of the bullshit going on in this thread at the moment.


----------



## cdawall (Sep 6, 2013)

toecutter said:


> More repetitive meaningless post



I am just going to put this out there. Fully modular cabling is flat out stupid. I will never not use my 24P, 4P or 4+4P connectors on a powersupply. It's added cost, added resistance and an added failure point. So you can quite honestly keep that little "option" to your Seasonic unit all to yourself. 

As far as OEM's go I prefer the enhance based design of my TPQ-1200 the massive 12v rail that is capable of being crossloaded to the full 1200w is quite useful for someone like me that uses multiple powersupplies when overclocking items under certain conditions. It is also rock solid stable when I need it to be. Thing about TEC's is they tend to run better with a good solid 12v running through them.

Platinum certification is cool and all, but my gold unit meets and exceeds the same efficiency rating as your platinum unit were I need it.

I purchased a powersupply to fit *my* needs and in all honesty don't need someone on some Seasonic high horse to tell me why *his* purchase was better. Guess what it doesn't fit *my* needs. You seem to fail to see that. 

Move on you are really not convincing anyone that your Seasonic is the best powersupply ever built since it doesn't meet the needs of everyone. Trust me when a powersupply company accomplishes that they will sell like hotcakes. For now we have many many options to pick and chose from and some are better than others.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 6, 2013)

Frick said:


> That would only be true if they were identical, but they are not. They might be _based _on some mobel, but not identical. If we're using seasonic as an example they are just building them for others according to the buyers specs, while making _other _PSU's for themselves. Also Seasonic (as an example) tends to be quite expensive compared to the ones that use Seasonic as the OEM, but that doesn't matter as the PSU's are not identical.


this is true... the Seasonic has better features, 92% advertised via both manufactures. $165 regular price is also better so I do agree, they are not the same, Antec charges a premium for putting their name on it. The increased price and shaved features is their profit margin.



> So the argument makes no sense no matter how you put it, and it never has. You can buy whatever PSU you want of course, but don't try to make your choice look like it's somehow factually/morally superior (unless you get to buy something on a nice discount).


there is no argument here, the Seasonic unit has the Antec unit beat in this particular 750w category, even though the Seasonic has an additional 12 watts.

seems I stepped on some product shills toes, I figured you people over here would be in "the know" and like the Seasonic too. But after looking at profiles I see that ths place is a little behind the times? am I in freaking Canada on this website :lol: I trust the overclockers advise from more trusted and very technical sites.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 6, 2013)

cdawall said:


> I am just going to put this out there. Fully modular cabling is flat out stupid. I will never not use my 24P, 4P or 4+4P connectors on a powersupply. It's added cost, added resistance and an added failure point. So you can quite honestly keep that little "option" to your Seasonic unit all to yourself.
> 
> As far as OEM's go I prefer the enhance based design of my TPQ-1200 the massive 12v rail that is capable of being crossloaded to the full 1200w is quite useful for someone like me that uses multiple powersupplies when overclocking items under certain conditions. It is also rock solid stable when I need it to be. Thing about TEC's is they tend to run better with a good solid 12v running through them.
> 
> ...



this discussion is not about your T-Rex, so stop making it 

just let it go man... and go talk about your unit on one of those historical sites about classic hi performance computer equipment.


----------



## Mussels (Sep 6, 2013)

toecutter said:


> But after looking at profiles I see that ths place is a little behind the times? am I in freaking Canada on this website :lol: I trust the overclockers advise from more trusted and very technical sites.



more accurately: you're an ass, and the only way you deal with yourself is by the incorrect belief that you know better. if you admit you dont know something, do you sit alone and cry at night? does it hurt you THAT much to think that your opinions are not relevant to everyone else in the world?


try this: accept that other people have different opinions than you, and that they can still be valid. if you cant, maybe you should shut up because i'm getting real tired of reading all your posts being reported for trolling and rude behaviour.


----------



## Mussels (Sep 6, 2013)

infractions and deleted posts will continue for anyone childish enough to continue this pointless arguing.


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 6, 2013)

toecutter said:


> seems I stepped on some product shills toes, I figured you people over here would be in "the know" and like the Seasonic too. But after looking at profiles I see that ths place is a little behind the times? am I in freaking Canada on this website :lol: I trust the overclockers advise from more trusted and very technical sites.



Like Seasonic? Oh yes we do like Seasonic a lot. Would we recommend solely Seasonic products? No thanks, a lot of power supplies meet the minimum requirements of supplying clean power to our rig, and in case of PSU's failure will not take the entire rig down. Money is usually better spent elsewhere after you have met the minimum, getting any better does not bring much benefits, if at all. Unless of course if you are gunning for the overclocking record or other such reasons, but most of us here are not. 

If you think you are better served on other websites, feel free to participate in their forums. As a whole I believe the TPU community is one which is almost purely focused on price/perf, with the occasional power overclocker who wants the best. That means sacrificing a lot of rather useless stuff like Platinum labelled power supplies, 2133Mhz ram, and LGA2011. 

Additionally, we do not like vocal fanboys, be it Intel, AMD, or Seasonic. We tolerate them, but if they persist we will show them the door.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 6, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Additionally, we do not like vocal fanboys, be it Intel, AMD, or Seasonic. We tolerate them, but if they persist we will show them the door.



thank you... I'll show myself out...

nice place you got here fellas, real warm and welcome.


----------



## Norton (Sep 6, 2013)

Thank you....

On topic... I have quite an assortment of PSU's in my cruncher fleet and nearly all of them are quality units and have run trouble free. 

Corsair- HX-850, CX-500, TX-550M, TX-850, AX-1200
Seasonic- X750 Gold, M12II 750
Antec- HCG-620
Rosewill- RV2-700 (POS but it still runs )
Silverstone- 600w Strider (retired- unknown issue after 4 yrs of trouble free operation)

90% of my rigs run 24/7 at full load so reliability is the most important factor so I check reviews, buyer feedback, etc.. price is my second concern. If I need one I try to balance the best deal available at the time with the best psu in my price range.

Case in point- just got the M12II for $99 w/$20 discount, free shipping, and a $10 MIR (i.e. $69 )... If I could have found a better deal on a good unit from another brand then I wouldn't have purchased this one. 

My favorites? ATM I would say the AX-1200 and the X750 both run cool/barely get warm when running at full load. Worst? The Rosewill (runs hot/don't trust it) and the TX-850 (runs hot)

My $0.02


----------



## cdawall (Sep 6, 2013)

toecutter said:


> this discussion is not about your T-Rex, so stop making it
> 
> just let it go man... and go talk about your unit on one of those historical sites about classic hi performance computer equipment.



No this is a thread labeled PSU guide so do tell me, what on Earth that has to do with your insane love for a Seasonic 760w Platinum unit and how it is better than all other powersupplies?


----------



## Frick (Sep 6, 2013)

toecutter said:


> this is true... the Seasonic has better features, 92% advertised via both manufactures. $165 regular price is also better so I do agree, they are not the same, Antec charges a premium for putting their name on it. The increased price and shaved features is their profit margin.
> 
> 
> there is no argument here, the Seasonic unit has the Antec unit beat in this particular 750w category, even though the Seasonic has an additional 12 watts.
> ...



It feels like we're talking about different things. Yes, that Seasonic may very well be the best (as in, the best performer) 750ishW unit out there. But it feels like you won't accept any other PSU, or am I imagining things? Seasonic is good, that cannot be argued, but to say they are the best, _PERIOD_, is ... just wrong.

And how can Antec have a premium for the name when they are the ones who designed it, and if it truly is good and if the OEM has no consumer PSU's with their own name on them? It makes no sense. If anything the Seasonic brand commands a premium, at least where I live.

And behind the times.. Right. Anyway are we shills because we don't herald a certain brand as the One True Brand? Isn't that ... the opposite of being shills?

EDIT: Did Mussels just give himself an infraction for insulting toecutter?


----------



## toecutter (Sep 6, 2013)

Norton said:


> Case in point- just got the M12II for $99 w/$20 discount, free shipping, and a $10 MIR (i.e. $69 )... If I could have found a better deal on a good unit from another brand then I wouldn't have purchased this one.


 bingo! and I for one won't get mad at you for getting such a good deal... I just discovered Seasonic myself, I haven't purchased a PSU since 2004, I think they are as cool as sliced bread... I usually run laptops since my last build.



Frick said:


> It feels like we're talking about different things. Yes, that Seasonic may very well be the best (as in, the best performer) 750ishW unit out there.


 yep, I'm not interested in a 1200w


> But it feels like you won't accept any other PSU, or am I imagining things? Seasonic is good, that cannot be argued, but to say they are the best, _PERIOD_, is ... just wrong.


 did I say that? please requote me... I named 3 which my decision of being high quality enough to entrust into my new couple thousand $$ build.



> And behind the times.. Right. Anyway are we shills because we don't herald a certain brand as the One True Brand? Isn't that ... the opposite of being shills?


nah it's kind of a reverse shillism  hard to explain... a shill can have many roles.

I'm sure I made a wise investment  I been outta the loop for awhile too...


----------



## Frick (Sep 8, 2013)

toecutter said:


> bingo! and I for one won't get mad at you for getting such a good deal... I just discovered Seasonic myself, I haven't purchased a PSU since 2004, I think they are as cool as sliced bread... I usually run laptops since my last build.
> 
> yep, I'm not interested in a 1200w
> did I say that? please requote me... I named 3 which my decision of being high quality enough to entrust into my new couple thousand $$ build.



So. You just discovered Seasonic, has not purchased a PSU since 2004, and you consider us to be behind the times? Good grief. GOOD GOD.

And why are you talking PSU's at all when you're clearly not interested in them? You are interested in YOUR PSU, which is proper, but to just dismiss anything not by those three companies and not 750W is stupid, in a thread about PSUs. Not just any PSU, but all of them. And you did call CDawalls PSU a dinosaur, then you said a modern 750W unit can do more than a 5 year old 1200W unit. Which is just wrong.

And your love of Delta, and therefore Antec? You know how many PSU's Delta makes, and a lot of them are stuff you probably would not touch with a ten foor pole? And how the same goes for Seasonic? Brand loyalty can be good, but is often dumb.


----------



## toecutter (Sep 9, 2013)

Frick said:


> So. You just discovered Seasonic, has not purchased a PSU since 2004, and you consider us to be behind the times? Good grief. GOOD GOD.
> 
> And why are you talking PSU's at all when you're clearly not interested in them? You are interested in YOUR PSU, which is proper, but to just dismiss anything not by those three companies and not 750W is stupid, in a thread about PSUs. Not just any PSU, but all of them. And you did call CDawalls PSU a dinosaur, then you said a modern 750W unit can do more than a 5 year old 1200W unit. Which is just wrong.
> 
> And your love of Delta, and therefore Antec? You know how many PSU's Delta makes, and a lot of them are stuff you probably would not touch with a ten foor pole? And how the same goes for Seasonic? Brand loyalty can be good, but is often dumb.



no brand loyalties here... specially after what Asus done to me after all these years 

I do like Platinum power supplies though because that is the efficiency generation we are into now.

I am glad I was able to point out all of the misreadings (or non reading) of posts on the last few pages. It is very easy for veterans to draw conclusions on people when information is incomplete. 

It is very east to understand how if one does not actually read post or only sees what they want to see in them, then automatic assumptions can be made which are misconstrued.


----------



## shilka (Nov 11, 2013)

I am just going to leave this link here

http://www.overclock.net/t/1431929/psu-index-thread

All but the last few threads are all done by me


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## Frick (Nov 11, 2013)

shilka said:


> I am just going to leave this link here
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1431929/psu-index-thread
> 
> All but the last few threads are all done by me



In which you say Corsair CX PSU's do not belong in gaming systems, which is bollocks.


----------



## shilka (Nov 11, 2013)

Frick said:


> In which you say Corsair CX PSU's do not belong in gaming systems, which is bollocks.



If you like to think thats fair enough

How about you read the whole thread or any of the others before you say anything


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 11, 2013)

All brands have failure rates as do ALL components, corsair are not bad 

Ps exactly who else have you ever heard of making a montage of their own (insert brand name)complaint/moaning threads into one big compendium thread, its just odd and makes your avatar name look like some shady in joke with shil in it, have I just outed you ?.


----------



## shilka (Nov 11, 2013)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> All brands have failure rates as do ALL components, corsair are not bad
> 
> Ps exactly who else have you ever heard of making a montage of their own (insert brand name)complaint/moaning threads into one big compendium thread, its just odd and makes your avatar name look like some shady in joke with shil in it, have I just outed you ?.



I never said they where bad or anything like it

As for the name its a russian name so off course it may sound strange to some

But so does the old name for Panasonic which is Matsushita 

Matsu-shita


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## Frick (Nov 12, 2013)

shilka said:


> If you like to think thats fair enough
> 
> How about you read the whole thread or any of the others before you say anything



I did read that thread (the first pages anyway), and it boiled down to "it's cheap and therefore not suitable for gaming", and people said it was good info. You had a bunch of pictures saying "look how cheap it is", and well ... isn't that the point? I'm willing to bet money that most CX430's can do 100% load for three years (the warranty period). If I spent $2000 on a computer I would get a good PSU, but cheap (to an extent) PSU's are just as capable (within their specifications) as expensive ones.

Yes, you should buy as good PSU's as your budget allows, but if it's a tight budget Corsair CX is a good choice. Depending on the price in your location.

I apologize for sounding harsh in that post.


----------



## gardening (Nov 16, 2013)

Hi,

I am not sure if this is the right place to ask, but as many times as I ended via search or links of other boards in this thread I am hoping I'm in the right place:

I search for the actual Watt idle details of the aktual LGA 2011 boards (with the i7-4930K CPU, deactivated OC for certain work projects) and also for the idle details of GPU's so I can calculate the idle for my planed system and then find out which PSUs fullfill that need with at least 85% efficiancy. 

I've read somewhere each 2GB RAM stick needs 2 Watt in idle, each 4GB RAM stick 3 Watt. What I can't find are the needed Watt for 8GB RAMs (I have 8 of them)

My problem is, I search for a PSU with excellent low level efficiency for certain low energy needed work projects, but other projects need tons of extra cards and speed (firewire, 2nd GPU non-SLI, RAID,OC) => I'd like to not oversee 5V ability ... too and calculate without haste

Is there anybody here who knows about such things ot could point me to the correct thread / list / entry....?

I tried to read through the complete thread, but I've to confess to not understand all entries or found it difficult to not skip a post if it seemed a bit .... heated, I hope that is acceptable to do so. Thank you for reading this


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## Mussels (Nov 17, 2013)

buy a wall meter and test it yourself. every system will end up different.


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## gardening (Nov 17, 2013)

Mussels said:


> buy a wall meter and test it yourself. every system will end up different.


Hi 
I am *planing* the system, I try to find some RL based numbers

I found a kind of chart at ocaholic = e.g. P9X79-E WS 
with 3930K, GTX 580 (= 32Watt idle), 1x 8GB RAM, 1x HDD, Dark Power PRO
=> *155 Watt idle*. 17 X79 boards compared, including P9X79 Pro. 
The 17 boards got a range 131Watt till 162 Watt for idle, so the boards result are not even outstanding

at Hardware.info, P9X79-V Pro
with 4960x, HD 7750, 16GB RAM, 1x 128GB SSD
=> *68,4 Watt idle*. No explanation about monitor on or not... or why it is so much deeper in consumption found

Hence *one* of the reasons my try to find out more input, even if I aim for great at 10% PSUs, the 2 numbers differ quite a lot.


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## AsRock (Nov 17, 2013)

Mussels said:


> buy a wall meter and test it yourself. every system will end up different.



So true some motherboards hog much more power than some..  I remember my Maxinus mobo  x38 used to idle at 200w were and other 775 mobo would idle around 80w.

Best ways is to get some thing like that (  KIll A Watt ) or even some thing like what Zalman do which takes the usage just before the PSU.


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## aman (Nov 25, 2013)

Hey u have so much patience to type all these stuff...anyway thank you for posting


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## reppel (Dec 21, 2013)

I haven't read all the posts, just the first ones and last ones. I see that Super Flower PSUs are on red (do not buy). Does that still applies? Aren't they pretty good now?


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## crmaris (Dec 21, 2013)

SF PSUs are among the best for some years now.


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## m343 (Feb 23, 2014)

Hi 
PSU Corsair RM1000w Is it good for 
-Maximus VI Extream 1150LGA
-Intel 4770k + Corsair h100i
-Gskill TridentX 8GB 4GBx2 2666MHz DDR3
-VGA Asus GTX780 OC DDR5 3G


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## Vario (Feb 26, 2014)

m343 said:


> Hi
> PSU Corsair RM1000w Is it good for
> -Maximus VI Extream 1150LGA
> -Intel 4770k + Corsair h100i
> ...


Should be no problem.  Modern components don't require much power.  You could probably get by on 750 watt PSU if you wanted.  Probably even a 600 watt.

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-780/specifications


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## mhadina (Mar 28, 2014)

Which is the best-buy quiet psu around 1000W?
R9 290 SLI ( 700W) default
i7
thanks


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## shilka (Apr 15, 2014)

mhadina said:


> Which is the best-buy quiet psu around 1000W?
> R9 290 SLI ( 700W) default
> i7
> thanks


http://www.overclock.net/t/1438987/best-fully-modular-1000-watts-psu

But you dont need more then 700-750 watts
http://www.overclock.net/t/1482157/best-fully-modular-700-750-watts-psu


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## m343 (May 2, 2014)

I need 720W for my PC. And I have just 2 choise

-Enermax REVOLUTION X’t 730W Power Suppy Unit

-Corsair RM850 80Plus Gold Full Modular PSU

Which one is bether ??


Maximus VI Extream 
4770K
16 GB Ram (2*8 )
EVGA 780 TI


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## McSteel (May 2, 2014)

You do not need anywhere near 720W, unless you've got dry ice or liquid nitrogen cooling and are benching for world records...
Where are you buying from? Link some shops that are convenient for you, if possible...


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## shilka (May 2, 2014)

None of them are great but the RM is better because ripple suppression on the XT sucks
Cant you find anything else?

But as said above you dont need anywhere near 700 watts a 550 watts PSU is all you need


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## m343 (May 2, 2014)

McSteel said:


> You do not need anywhere near 720W, unless you've got dry ice or liquid nitrogen cooling and are benching for world records...
> Where are you buying from? Link some shops that are convenient for you, if possible...





shilka said:


> None of them are great but the RM is better because ripple suppression on the XT sucks
> Cant you find anything else?
> 
> But as said above you dont need anywhere near 700 watts a 550 watts PSU is all you need



Here is list that I can buy ( In Iran )

-Corsair VS650 Power Supply
-Corsair VS450 Power Supply
-corsair HX750  80Plus Gold
-corsair CX 750M
-Cooler Master GX-750W PSU
-Cooler Master GX-650W PSU
--Cooler Master V650
-ThermalTake Toughpower XT Gold 1475W( )


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## RCoon (May 2, 2014)

m343 said:


> Here is list that I can buy ( In Iran )
> 
> -Corsair VS650 Power Supply
> -Corsair VS450 Power Supply
> ...


 
I don't mean to be rude, but you already have a thread asking this question. Try to keep it to one place, just as many people will see it.


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## roast (Dec 9, 2014)

Hey everyone,

I'm looking for a decent PSU but there's so many on the market now and I've been out of the game for a little while. I've been rocking my TX 850 for about five years now so it's definitely time for a change!

The most critical thing is that I need a PSU which is super-quiet, if not silent. As in, as-quiet-as-a-ladies-wind kind of quiet. 
I've been leaning towards the Be Quiet! 800w, which seems like it might fit the bill. Are there any other major players I should be looking at?
And are there any decent passively-cooled PSU's on the market? I recall seeing some a few years back.

Current rig is a Gigabyte x58a-UD7 with an i7 920 (Ancient, I know... they'll be getting the boot soon too.  ) and a GTX 970.

Thanks in advance..
/Mick


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2015)

@roast Seasonic has a 560W fanless model. Here it's about €150, FSP has a fanless 500W unit for about €130. If you want more power, the big EVGA 1600W Supernovas will do more than that in fanless mode, if you have a well ventilated case.


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## The N (Feb 7, 2015)

guys, i wanna buy PSU. please tell how is *xigmatek centauro 700W PSU. *its 80+ Bronze.  will it be good enough for any SLI/cfx setup. or atleast 290x single. ???


waiting for suggestion.


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## BarbaricSoul (Feb 7, 2015)

Depends on exactly what video cards you try to run with it. 700 watts is not enough for 290X crossfire, although it is plenty for a single 290X. Personally, I wouldn't try crossfire 290X with less than 850 watts. 290X is a very power hungry video card.


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## The N (Feb 7, 2015)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Depends on exactly what video cards you try to run with it. 700 watts is not enough for 290X crossfire, although it is plenty for a single 290X. Personally, I wouldn't try crossfire 290X with less than 850 watts. 290X is a very power hungry video card.



thanx for response. 

actually i meant for single 290x and this is extreme power draw i know and if centauro 700w can handle single easily 290x this means, it will a good future proof option. thats why i mentioned 290x single for reference. OK. and what about 280x CFX on this PSU, would be a good enough??? just in case


----------



## Frick (Feb 7, 2015)

The N said:


> thanx for response.
> 
> actually i meant for single 290x and this is extreme power draw i know and if centauro 700w can handle single easily 290x this means, it will a good future proof option. thats why i mentioned 290x single for reference. OK. and what about 280x CFX on this PSU, would be a good enough??? just in case



Depends if you're planning on running Furmark on them. Then it will not be enough as that has 50W on the 12V line = 600W which those cards will attain. Honestly I would not do it, and I'm very liberal in my PSU recommendations.


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 7, 2015)

Frick said:


> Depends if you're planning on running Furmark on them. Then it will not be enough as that has 50W on the 12V line = 600W which those cards will attain. Honestly I would not do it, and I'm very liberal in my PSU recommendations.


I've always felt that 50% to 80% of max as a good target. I start having concerns if you end up needing to run a PSU above 80% of max. Some quality single-rail PSUs can be good, like Seasonic and many corsair units. While the Xigmatek @The N described is a single rail PSU, I can't say anything for the build quality. I personally wouldn't go less than 850 for 290X crossfire.


----------



## Frick (Feb 7, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> I've always felt that 50% to 80% of max as a good target. I start having concerns if you end up needing to run a PSU above 80% of max. Some quality single-rail PSUs can be good, like Seasonic and many corsair units. While the Xigmatek @The N described is a single rail PSU, I can't say anything for the build quality. I personally wouldn't go less than 850 for 290X crossfire.



It's decent, but only 50A on the 12V rail. I probably wouldn't go under 850W even for 280x crossfire on the odd chance you want to run Furmark for funsies. It's not a realistic load, but still.


----------



## The N (Feb 9, 2015)

Frick said:


> It's decent, but only 50A on the 12V rail. I probably wouldn't go under 850W even for 280x crossfire on the odd chance you want to run Furmark for funsies. It's not a realistic load, but still.



OH, 700w centauro is outta stock right now. now i am going for Centauro 800w PSU, with 58A @12v . with difference of 1K new price. in our country, can't find many brands. i only find xigmatek in my range with good specs ad review. corsiar is very expensive


----------



## Caring1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Xigmatek are a decent brand, I have one running 24/7 and it is so far faultless and silent.
http://www.xigmatek.com/product.php?productid=193


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## The N (Feb 11, 2015)

oh people, while i was focussed on xigmatek to buy and with no other options. suddenly i received an offer of *be quiet 750w 80+ GOLD*, Modular, used though. so i bought it wihtout any thought as i already read its review and it seems very very efficient  due to GOLD rated and future proof.


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 11, 2015)

The N said:


> oh people, while i was focussed on xigmatek to buy and with no other options. suddenly i received an offer of *be quiet 750w 80+ GOLD*, Modular, used though. so i bought it wihtout any thought as i already read its review and it seems very very efficient  due to GOLD rated and future proof.


I would rather take the Zigmatek PSU. At least it only has a single +12v rail where the Be Quiet has 4. Despite efficiency, I think the Zigmatek is the better choice.


----------



## Frick (Feb 11, 2015)

Just keep an eye out on how you plug stuff in on the rails and you'll be ok.

EDIT: Don't run furmark on the 280x's btw.


----------



## AlwaysHope (Jun 25, 2018)

Interesting how 230v PSU with gold, platinum & titanium rating are more efficient than equivalent 115v series.

https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/understanding-the-80-plus-certification/3/


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## robot zombie (Jun 25, 2018)

AlwaysHope said:


> Interesting how 230v PSU with gold, platinum & titanium rating are more efficient than equivalent 115v series.
> 
> https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/understanding-the-80-plus-certification/3/


Not surprised. I'm no expert on electricity, but I do know that higher voltages require far less current for the same amount of energy. Vaping has taught me that the more current you push through a wire, the more of that energy flowing through is lost as heat.

On a component level, I can see how it might only make a slight difference. Once that 240v gets passed down through all of the stuff that takes it down to the various low-voltage, DC rails that your components require, it won't matter if there's 120 or 240 on the input end. Components on the front line may consume just slightly less power to output the same wattage at the same voltage, but that 240v doesn't stay that way for very long. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, that voltage switch actually throws the input over to a voltage doubler when set at 115v. A little power is undoubtedly lost in the process, but past that circuit, it shouldn't matter what's coming out of the wall. Even the more basic ones are pretty darned efficient.

Again, just my somewhat-read, non-electrical-engineer's guess at it. I may be completely wrong. It's been a while since I read up on this stuff. Maybe I should re-read the OP


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## AlwaysHope (Jun 25, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Not surprised. I'm no expert on electricity, but I do know that higher voltages require far less current for the same amount of energy. Vaping has taught me that the more current you push through a wire, the more of that energy flowing through is lost as heat.
> 
> On a component level, I can see how it might only make a slight difference. Once that 240v gets passed down through all of the stuff that takes it down to the various low-voltage, DC rails that your components require, it won't matter if there's 120 or 240 on the input end. Components on the front line may consume just slightly less power to output the same wattage at the same voltage, but that 240v doesn't stay that way for very long. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, that voltage switch actually throws the input over to a voltage doubler when set at 115v. A little power is undoubtedly lost in the process, but past that circuit, it shouldn't matter what's coming out of the wall. Even the more basic ones are pretty darned efficient.
> 
> Again, just my somewhat-read, non-electrical-engineer's guess at it. I may be completely wrong. It's been a while since I read up on this stuff. Maybe I should re-read the OP



I'm like you, ain't no electrical engineer, but from my own daily experience with the rig in my system specs, that corsair AX760 is couple months short of 5 yrs old. Been used everyday since new, although it's only platinum grade & performs mostly 40-60% daily, its still performs like the day it was bought. All this in a regular suburban home with no A/C in a climate like SE Australia.
Not plugging for corsair, just saying it seems higher grade PSU seem to have better reliability as a bonus. 
Got a Silverstone ST60F-TI ready to go in any day now. I reckon around 5 yrs of grueling benching & gaming from an OC rig is time for PSU renewal imo. It will get a new life in my LGA775 restoration project for now.
I just think that if your serious about long term sustained OC for daily usage, then don't cut corners with the juice quality feeding it.


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## robot zombie (Jun 25, 2018)

AlwaysHope said:


> I'm like you, ain't no electrical engineer, but from my own daily experience with the rig in my system specs, that corsair AX760 is couple months short of 5 yrs old. Been used everyday since new, although it's only platinum grade & performs mostly 40-60% daily, its still performs like the day it was bought. All this in a regular suburban home with no A/C in a climate like SE Australia.
> Not plugging for corsair, just saying it seems higher grade PSU seem to have better reliability as a bonus.
> Got a Silverstone ST60F-TI ready to go in any day now. I reckon around 5 yrs of grueling benching & gaming from an OC rig is time for PSU renewal imo. It will get a new life in my LGA775 restoration project for now.
> I just think that if your serious about long term sustained OC for daily usage, then don't cut corners with the juice quality feeding it.


Oh, no doubt. When I was talking efficiency, I was only referring to the circuit that pushes 120 up to 240. I was just saying there are slight gains there, but it makes sense that it's just a couple of percents.

I think you should factor-in the most reliable and efficient PSU you can buy. It's the last thing to skimp out on, no matter what you're doing imo. There is no excuse for putting say, a $30-$40 PSU in $2000 rig. But whether its 120 or 240 going in matters a lot less than the base efficiency and quality of components.


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## MrGenius (Jun 25, 2018)

It was a comparison between certification requirements for redundant and non-redundant PSUs. It doesn't say anything about how efficient a particular PSU is when run with a given voltage. Granted the theory that using 230V input is, typically, slightly more efficient than using 115V input on any given PSU still applies. Though the difference in efficiency is very likely to be so slight as to be negligible(if it exists at all).

Long story short. You use whatever comes out of the outlet on the wall. There's no real need to concern yourself anything else.

BTW no. That's not why. Because such a thing does not exist. As there is absolutely no need for it. Voltage needs to go down. Not up.


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## robot zombie (Jun 25, 2018)

MrGenius said:


> Long story short. You use whatever comes out of the outlet on the wall. There's no real need to concern yourself anything else.


Well... yeah. I don't think anybody was suggesting that you try to rig up your PSU (or your house) to run off of 240 when your house is mostly 120. There's squeezing the last coupla percents and then there's just crazy. More just a curiosity with how they work and why they are more efficient at higher input voltages.



> BTW no. That's not why. Because such a thing does not exist. As there is absolutely no need for it. Voltage needs to go down. Not up.


Maybe I'm confused, but I understand that ultimately we're trying to get the voltage down. I'm referring to the input part of the circuit, not the output. The input stage is meant to filter the power of things the output stage doesn't want and give it the voltage and current levels that it needs, right? It's got nothing to do with what we're trying to get out, but what needs to go in.

When we're talking PSU's with the actual red/black voltage switch... ...my understanding of it was that everything from the rectifier stage on is designed to run with 230 as the input voltage, because it's easier/more efficient to boost from 115 than it is to step down from 230, I assume. The rectifier that converts everything to DC needs to get the right voltage or the whole thing simply doesn't work like it's supposed to. A DC rectifier can't make something from nothing. The step up has to be the first thing to happen, because the voltage coming out needs to be the same whether your feed in 115 or 230. The narrower the voltage range going in, the less the rest of the circuit has to try to adapt to/correct for. It is much simpler to design an already complex power circuit to take a narrow voltage and do the conversion first off as opposed to leaving it with a range from like 110-240. All it basically takes to do this is two smaller capacitors wired in series and a switch. Easy, cheap way to do things.

So, when set to "115", the voltage doubler basically serves to get the same power out of the DC rectifier as you would by running 230 straight out of the wall. If you only fed it 115, it wouldn't kick up enough DC to drive the output side. This is also why I always thought the PSU would fry if you plugged it in to a 230v outlet with the switch set to 115. Feeding 230 through that doubler would easily kill everything with crazy high voltage if there wasn't a fuse.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff and oversimplifying. But to me this just makes sense as the simplest way to get past having to deal with such a wide input range for something that needs to output power consistently and precisely. Design a circuit to run at the higher input voltage, and boost the lower voltage up to match it, rather than add a ton of complexity by making something that can, by design, take any voltage you toss into it and output the same power. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm just saying how I think it works based on what I do know. It's the only way taking two distinct voltages makes sense to me, without coming up with something even less intuitive.


I get that most newer PSU's use a different type of circuit that can take a wide range of input voltages and make the same output automatically. Active PFC is beyond me. Might as well tell me it's deleting electrons. I'd believe you.


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## Frick (Jun 25, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Maybe I should re-read the OP



Don't. It wasn't even that accurate to start with and that was more than ten years ago. A lot of things has happened since then, a lot of the OEMs previously thought of as "bad" are now anything from quite decent to downright good (unless of course you are one of those PSU elitists in which case you are wrong about things).



AlwaysHope said:


> I'm like you, ain't no electrical engineer, but from my own daily experience with the rig in my system specs, that corsair AX760 is couple months short of 5 yrs old. Been used everyday since new, although it's only platinum grade & performs mostly 40-60% daily, its still performs like the day it was bought. All this in a regular suburban home with no A/C in a climate like SE Australia.
> Not plugging for corsair, just saying it seems higher grade PSU seem to have better reliability as a bonus.



That's really nothing special. You can expect that kind of performance from any but the crappiest PSUs.


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## John Naylor (Jun 25, 2018)

I have never found PSU Listings useful.   Classifications are all to often made whereby a review of one model series (say 650 watter) gets a good review and the "rating" is shared across all units in the series, even when the PSUs are not made on the same platform or even same OEM.  I know it's unpopular in a social media world where reading more than 3 sentences is considered '" bother" but if I don't see 5 pages, I won't even bother to read a review.  In addition, as is all too often the case with other components (i.e monitors).... there's a production run  from which samples go out to reviewers and then there's a component change which makes manufacturing cheaper.

When budget is a priority, the Seasonic S12 / M12 is hard to beat as they are often as low as $35 - $50.  I'll use these so grandma can see poics of her grand kids, Momma can read her emails and keep facebook updated and office worker can take work home and any decent unit that can meet ATX spec is fine w/ me.  For enthusiast / gaming boxes, it's time to move up ... with moderate overclocking, I want to see coltage variations under  2.0  -2.5 % and good noise levels.  For serious overclocking want to see < 1.0% voltage variation and top notch noise levels.


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## robot zombie (Jun 26, 2018)

Frick said:


> Don't. It wasn't even that accurate to start with and that was more than ten years ago. A lot of things has happened since then, a lot of the OEMs previously thought of as "bad" are now anything from quite decent to downright good (unless of course you are one of those PSU elitists in which case you are wrong about things).


Haha, yeah, I see that reading over it. I realized immediately I was thinking of another guide on this site. 

Oddly enough, takes me back to a time when a lot of people were still pushing for the absolute maximum headroom you could get, to the point where they were using a third of the power available  All in the name of performance.


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## John Naylor (Jun 26, 2018)

There are advantages to be had ... I calculate the max theoretical wattage required and then multiply by 1.25 for stock or moderate over clocking and 1.5 for serious OCing.  Why oversize ?

a)  PSUs reach peak efficiency at 50%... which means more heat is produced and more electric is consumed per watt of power above 50%

620 watt PSU producing 600 watts of power will pull 690 watts from the wall producing 90 watts of heat
1200 watt PSU producing 600 watts of power will pull 667 watts from the wall producing 67 watts of heat

b)  The cooling system for a 1200 watt PSU will barely be used at 600 watts meaning the fans if on will be at low speed and noise will be low.  The 620, it will be audible.

c)  The ability of the PSU to accurately control voltages diminishes the closest you get to rated power.  The less accurately the PSU can match the voltages called for by MoBo, chipset, GPU, the less stable the overclock.

d)  The ability of the PSU to minimize electrical noise diminishes the closest you get to rated power.  The more noise,  the less stable the overclock.

BTW, not suggesting you double necessary power... just picked 600 and 1200 cause it made the math easy


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## GorbazTheDragon (Jul 13, 2018)

Jesus, the amount of things wrong in the OP...

Super flower not recommended at all? They are one of the highest rated OEMs these days, and having looked through their older stuff, they were never particularly crap either.

Corsair=seasonic?

I really get tired of the whole "buy a corsair psu they are the best" thing, because they aren't the best and never really were. Only the overpriced AX and old HX series were really top class units... (Seasonic platinum series was basically always cheaper than the corsair AX branded models)


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## Frick (Jul 27, 2018)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Jesus, the amount of things wrong in the OP...
> 
> Super flower not recommended at all? They are one of the highest rated OEMs these days, and having looked through their older stuff, they were never particularly crap either.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the OP should really be updated (the font is horrible too), or not be a sticky anymore. It's of no help to anyone.


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## bogmali (Jul 27, 2018)

OK folks we get the idea, the OP has not been updated and now it is no longer sticky'd. Instead of necroing and complaining, why not just start a whole new thread with the most current info available? Leave this thread be as I will request for it to be locked.


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