# First Sale Doctrine



## Ahhzz (Jun 13, 2012)

Didn't see a better place for this, so covering it under the "Technology" part of the header 



http://www.theatlantic.com/national...d-you-may-have-violated-copyright-law/258276/

Looks like the Supreme Court could soon be deciding whether our For Sale/Buy/Trade forums are legal or not....


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## Sasqui (Jun 13, 2012)

Wow, from one example of Omega trying to block the sale of thier watches by Costco, and citing copyright laws, supreme court may to impose what essentially is the digital millenium act on physical goods.  That's messed up.  Thankfully, the supreme court looks closely at the laws of unintended consequences.


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## bbmarley (Jun 13, 2012)

greedy bastards being greedy

this is getting past ridiculous now


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## Darkleoco (Jun 13, 2012)

As if the Supreme Court is stupid enough to say that selling secondhand items is illegal  

The whole case seems to be one big joke, I was actually wondering if the whole story was made up when I saw that bit about houses in their.


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## Kreij (Jun 13, 2012)

If this law were to pass, it would be illegal to sell almost anything you own in the US, given that almost everything has imported parts in them or was manufacturered abroad.
Every second hand store would be forced out of business, which would result in less taxes collected by the government.
The sale of used homes (the housing market) would collapse, and with it the taxes collected on those sales.
This will create a huge black market for used items in the US almost instantly.

Given the current economic situation and the 15 trillion of debt the US has, now is not a good time for them to cut off their nose to spite their face.


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## Ahhzz (Jun 13, 2012)

I agree ^  And yet, some courts have already said that First-Sale Doctrine doesn't apply to overseas goods. 2nd Circuit, and 9th, I believe.... I guess it will come down to a decision of "Does the law need to be changed..."


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## Kreij (Jun 13, 2012)

The 9th Circus court has had what, 2/3s of their rulings overturned by the USSC?
They are a joke.

Our courts are notorious for leaving gaping loopholes in their laws, so we'll just find them and exploit them, and nothing will change.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 13, 2012)

This is, despite the visceral reaction to the stupidity, a good thing.

Legal precedent that the first-sale doctrine is applicable to virtually every good makes it just about impossible for a ban on the sale of used goods.  As far as lawyers go, this will force the legal system to recognize these sales as legal, and remove any question.


The only down-side is that it needed to come to this.  Stupid litigation is bogging down the system, and this isn't particularly intelligent...


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 13, 2012)

Kreij said:


> Given the current economic situation and the 15 trillion of debt the US has, now ever is not a good time for them to cut off their nose to spite their face.


FTFY 




lilhasselhoffer said:


> Legal precedent that the first-sale doctrine is applicable to virtually every good makes it just about impossible for a ban on the sale of used goods.  As far as lawyers go, this will force the legal system to recognize these sales as legal, and remove any question.


I hope the decision goes retroactive and strikes down DMCA.  It shouldn't matter if it is a physical good or a virtual good, you're first sale doctrine should not be denied.  You paid for it, therefore you have the right to sell it to some*one* else.

...that is only wishful thinking though.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 13, 2012)

I hope it passes. I would love a good show.


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## Easy Rhino (Jun 14, 2012)

if it passes they will just be forcing these kinds of sales underground. pretty soon we will need an ever growing big brother society (we already got drones in the US people!)  to track regular tax paying folks for selling their watch or their CD to somebody who wants to buy it. my god... seriously we are heading toward a society where nobody owns anything except the corporation who made it. you don't buy a watch, you buy the right to where it. i mean seriously? will they have a ToS for watches now where it says that you can't sell your watch because you don't really own it. you have to keep it for life. if you throw it away well that is fine but JUST DONT SELL IT! lmfao things are getting worse.


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## Completely Bonkers (Jun 14, 2012)

How many different manufacturers played a part in building a Mercedes Benz? (Body, engine, transmission, brakes, audio, navi, seats, tyres, ...)  

Dont panic. The lower circus decision will be overturned.


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## DannibusX (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't think the SCOTUS will eliminate the first-sale doctrine.  Just because the product was manufactured overseas doesn't mean the doctrine does not apply.

Import duties are paid in full, even if they are zero.  Free trade agreements paved the way for the outsourcing of the manufacturing sector.  

I can't wait for companies to start licensing physical goods for use.


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## the54thvoid (Jun 14, 2012)

This seems very much to do with being seen to buy foreign goods to sell for profit in the US.  It's got nothing (behind the scenes) to do with copyright.  Idiot companies charging different amounts for an article depending on where it is to be consumed.

Corporate greed to the fore once again.

All I can see ever coming from this is a stipulation that multiple items cannot be bought abroad to be traded within the US at profit to the 'illegal' importer.  i.e. Being an unnoficial wholesale importer.

On the flip side, I cannot buy from Newegg - it does not ship to the EU.  More than likely because your electronic prices are far lower (even considering taxes) than they are in the EU - which is a disgrace too.

Isn't corporate commerce a bitch.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 14, 2012)

Naw, Newegg doesn't want to deal with 20 some countries worth of laws, regulations, and languages when they struggle enough in two.  Europe has many barriers to entry which amounts to a ton of risk with limited return on investment because of already-established businesses.  Not to mention, the EU loves to pick on foreigners (e.g. Microsoft) so a lot of US companies see Europe as more trouble than it's worth.  Only once in a while, you'll get companies like Systemax that buy out established tech retailers like Misco but they pretty much carry on with business as usual.  For example, if Newegg were to buyout Overclockers, Overclockers would likely remain largely unchanged.

...I'm rambling...

If Europe wants prices competitive with US, they need to create an environment like US (cheap import/export, no more than two dominent languages, one set of laws governing internet commerce, a few reliable shippers that cover all of Europe, etc.).


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## Solaris17 (Jun 14, 2012)

if this passes you can still PM for stuff.


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## Steevo (Jun 14, 2012)

Kreij said:


> The 9th Circus court has had what, 2/3s of their rulings overturned by the USSC?
> They are a joke.
> 
> Our courts are notorious for leaving gaping loopholes in their laws, so we'll just find them and exploit them, and nothing will change.



It isn't the loopholes, it is their fear of interpreting the law as it was written, instead of applying the context and morals they allow asshole lawyers to twist and manipulate the laws to fit their own needs.

If I say red means stop and a high power lawyer decides to argue at what stage does anyone have the right to decide what red is as a color and how each person perceives it, how the fact is that some are color blind and might not be able to make it out accurately and here are multiple "experts" and their testimony to distract you from the real truth.....


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## Deleted member 3 (Jun 14, 2012)

TPU isn't an American company, worst case scenario the boss has to copy/paste the server elsewhere.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 14, 2012)

Steevo said:


> It isn't the loopholes, it is their fear of interpreting the law as it was written, instead of applying the context and morals they allow asshole lawyers to twist and manipulate the laws to fit their own needs.
> 
> If I say red means stop and a high power lawyer decides to argue at what stage does anyone have the right to decide what red is as a color and how each person perceives it, how the fact is that some are color blind and might not be able to make it out accurately and here are multiple "experts" and their testimony to distract you from the real truth.....



I am to the point I no longer care. Honestly I don't give a S#!t what they do anymore. I hope ALL the laws pass and they enforce them to the fullest extent. Nobody cared they passed the NDAA where they could detain American citizens INDEFINITELY but the second they might come for our little toys and gadgets everyone gets all in arms. Societies priorities are shot. So I say pass away and rule with an iron fist. If they do it enough MAYBE people will wake up. If not f#ck em. They deserve what they voted for.

That and I would love to see the show. News has been borning latley.


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## micropage7 (Jun 14, 2012)

> If You've Ever Sold a Used iPod, You May Have Violated Copyright Law


come on be real
its electronic things, like engine, batteries 
its not like when you join Yakuza or special military unit that push you to hold its rule whatever may happened


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## D007 (Jun 15, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I am to the point I no longer care. Honestly I don't give a S#!t what they do anymore. I hope ALL the laws pass and they enforce them to the fullest extent. Nobody cared they passed the NDAA where they could detain American citizens INDEFINITELY but the second they might come for our little toys and gadgets everyone gets all in arms. Societies priorities are shot. So I say pass away and rule with an iron fist. If they do it enough MAYBE people will wake up. If not f#ck em. They deserve what they voted for.
> 
> That and I would love to see the show. News has been borning latley.



I couldn't of said it better.. Try to take me to court for somet BS like this and find me showing up in your court room with a fully automatic weapon.. See if it was worth it..
Tired of these Bs laws trying to shit on us like we're here to be shit on.. My shit stinks and I'm willing to start throwing it at people.. There's a line and it's being crossed more and more..


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