# New here Questions



## falcon26 (Aug 16, 2008)

Ok here goes first post  I've got a 4870 Ati card running passive with no fan using the artic cooling S1 as a heatsink. I've got ramsinks on the memory and the vrm's. I have 1 rear 120mm 800 rpms fan and 1 front intake fan same speed. I also have 1 120mm fan on my cpu cooler same speed. I was wondering if these temps are ok for my gpu running passively?

http://gpuz.techpowerup.com/08/08/16/9f.png

Thanks, falcon26


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## dark2099 (Aug 16, 2008)

The temp although within safely ranges seems high for a card with that cooler at idle.  You may have a problem with how the cooler is mounted.


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## DrPepper (Aug 16, 2008)

I have a S1 and my 8800GT runs at 40 degrees C idle 43 load. There's some comparison


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## falcon26 (Aug 16, 2008)

Yeah when I had my 8800GT it ran at those temps too. But doesn't the 4870 produce alot more heat?


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## DrPepper (Aug 16, 2008)

Well its 55nm so shouldn't be much more  maybe you should reapply thermal grease and remount ?


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## falcon26 (Aug 17, 2008)

Ok, after taking your advise, I reseated the S1 and put ramsinks on the vrm's and a 120mm fan on the s1 here's what I got

http://gpuz.techpowerup.com/08/08/17/8rx.png

The gpu temp is pretty good but the vrm's are still like 75 is that ok?


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## DrPepper (Aug 17, 2008)

Thats an excellent drop in temps from just reseating it  Now try allowing more airflow to get into the fan cooling it.


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## kyle2020 (Aug 17, 2008)

you could even ghetto - mount a 12CM fan onto the accelero


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## falcon26 (Aug 17, 2008)

That's exactly what I did  Their is a 120mm 800 rpm fan mounted on the s1 with zip ties...


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## DrPepper (Aug 17, 2008)

/win for ghetto mods .


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## kyle2020 (Aug 17, 2008)

DrPepper said:


> /win for ghetto mods .



you know


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## kg_wolf (Aug 17, 2008)

falcon26 said:


> That's exactly what I did  Their is a 120mm 800 rpm fan mounted on the s1 with zip ties...



I did the zip ties with an 8800GT on my other rig and it worked fine with the Accelero S1v2.  My question is, what did the fan do for your 4870 temps?  I saw the graph after you reseated the cooler and added the RAM sinks but was wondering how the fan further affected temps.

Did you sink the VRM?  In my opinion that is the source of a lot of heat with a 4870.  I am getting ready to install a Thermalright HR-03-GT vga cooler and wanted to see the effects the fan had on your cooler.  The size difference in the HR and the S1 will force me to use a 92mm fan as the HR is much smaller than the S1.

Thanks!  

kg wolf


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## WarEagleAU (Aug 17, 2008)

with one intake and one outtake fan, those temps arent bad at all. I have the same sort of problem with airflow in my case, but Im running a HD3870.


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## nafets (Aug 18, 2008)

kg_wolf said:


> ...The size difference in the HR and the S1 will force me to use a 92mm fan as the HR is much smaller than the S1.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> kg wolf



A 120mm fan works just fine on the TR HR-03 GT. I have a Scythe S-Flex SFF21E on my HR-03 GT and it works great. Don't settle for a smaller 92mm fan...


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2008)

i get around 35C load with a fan (nearby case fan) blowing on my 8800GT w/ an S1.

you get a fan on it, and it cools the ram/VRM's as well as the core


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## kg_wolf (Aug 18, 2008)

nafets said:


> A 120mm fan works just fine on the TR HR-03 GT. I have a Scythe S-Flex SFF21E on my HR-03 GT and it works great. Don't settle for a smaller 92mm fan...



Thanks!  I have a basket full of nice 120mm fans that I could use.  I just figured it was too big from the looks of it.  They did include a wire thing to install the fan but I guess my zip ties will have to override that.  

I'm anxious to get it installed as this fan noise from the 4870 is driving me crazy, even at 40%.  70% is like a 2 cycle lawnmower engine, 80% is a leaf blower and anything higher is your mother-in-law trying to talk to you while your gaming.  

kgw


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## kg_wolf (Aug 18, 2008)

Mussels said:


> i get around 35C load with a fan (nearby case fan) blowing on my 8800GT w/ an S1.
> 
> you get a fan on it, and it cools the ram/VRM's as well as the core



Thanks Mussels, that's a great load temp you have there.  I have plenty of air flow in this case including 2-140mm fans in the bottom blowing up directly at the vga card then on to the CPU.  I've got 2-140mm fans blowing in from the lower front of the case that also cools the HDD.  One 120mm exhaust fan in the back of the case and one in the top of the case.  The side door has a 250mm fan blowing on most everything.  I figure I'll need every bit of it to keep this beast cool.  I had no issues with the 8800GT but the 4870 is a whole different animal.

I'm not worried about the core staying cool, it's the voltage regulator I worry about.  I'll sink it, that's for sure.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2008)

well the point is a 120mm fan blowing onto that Vreg is going to be cooler than even the stock cooler was - direct airflow (sinked or not) will make a huge difference.

and yes i love my 8800GT - its Vmodded and OC'd and rarely breaks 40C in the weather atm (its winter here)


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## kg_wolf (Aug 18, 2008)

Mussels said:


> well the point is a 120mm fan blowing onto that Vreg is going to be cooler than even the stock cooler was - direct airflow (sinked or not) will make a huge difference.
> 
> and yes i love my 8800GT - its Vmodded and OC'd and rarely breaks 40C in the weather atm (its winter here)



G'Day Mate!  I failed to notice where you were!    When you said "it's winter here", me being in Florida, I had to do a double take.  

Yes, I agree on the fan.  The one on the 8800GT is a 120mm that I have set for 1200 RPM's.  That close airflow keeps the entire card cool.  It's virtually silent and keeps it very cool.  

Well, I'll throw an extra "mussel" on the barby in your honor.


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## falcon26 (Aug 19, 2008)

Ok I just put a 120mm scythe slipstream 1200 rpm fan on the S1 here's what I got  And its just as quiet as the sflex was at 800 rpm's. The difference being the 1200 rpm one is rated at 66 cfm and the 800 rpm one is rated at 33 cfm...

http://gpuz.techpowerup.com/08/08/18/6ty.png


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## kg_wolf (Aug 19, 2008)

falcon26 said:


> Ok I just put a 120mm scythe slipstream 1200 rpm fan on the S1 here's what I got  And its just as quiet as the sflex was at 800 rpm's. The difference being the 1200 rpm one is rated at 66 cfm and the 800 rpm one is rated at 33 cfm...
> 
> http://gpuz.techpowerup.com/08/08/18/6ty.png



Falcon, are those load temps?  Also, did you hook up the Scythe fan to your video card?


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## acrowley23 (Aug 19, 2008)

falcon26 said:


> Ok here goes first post  I've got a 4870 Ati card running passive with no fan using the artic cooling S1 as a heatsink. I've got ramsinks on the memory and the vrm's. I have 1 rear 120mm 800 rpms fan and 1 front intake fan same speed. I also have 1 120mm fan on my cpu cooler same speed. I was wondering if these temps are ok for my gpu running passively?
> 
> http://gpuz.techpowerup.com/08/08/16/9f.png
> 
> Thanks, falcon26



I never would use as S1 passiv on a 4870!! its not recommend because the 4870 produces a lot more heat compared to a 3870 where passive cooling was possible!

Use a 120mm Fan ,otherwise you can kill you Card ! Stop using a passiv S1 on 4870!

Most guys i know with 4870 @ S1 are using the Red Cooling Plate from Stock Cooler to cool the Ram and VRMs. And a mounted 120mm Fan


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## kg_wolf (Aug 19, 2008)

If this turns out to be a really dumb question, just pretend I didn't ask it ...  

But after reviewing some very nice photos of a 4870 video card that had been taken apart, the question that has dogged me was "why can't you simply take the cover off, remove the fan, add the VRM heatsinks, strap on a 120mm fan use the existing cooler?  It doesn't look half bad just to be honest, and the size of the heat pipes is impressive.  (Actually you could even use the ATI heat VRM heatsink complete and possibly not even need to add anything.)

I have tried to evaluate the photos to see if I could answer my own question but so far I am not sure.  It certainly looks possible.  Perhaps one fly in the ointment might be that the cooler is designed for airflow to move parallel through the fins instead of perpendicular.  Might not be an issue.

Of course the entire exercise would be in an attempt to eliminate the overly noisy fan, replacing it with a much more quiet fan that would at least move as much air as the stock fan.  There is no doubt that this cooler will keep the beast cool, if you're willing to put up with the sounds of leaf blowers in your ears.

If this topic has already been discussed I humbly apologize.

Any ideas or thoughts?

KGW


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## kg_wolf (Aug 22, 2008)

I installed the HR-03-GT VGA cooler by Thermaltake today on my ASUS 4870.  I learned a couple of things that I wanted to pass along.

First, I had ordered the Enzotech low-profile copper heatsinks for the ram.  (8 of them).  I had used those same sinks on an Accelero S1 V2 used on an 8800GT, so I knew the drill.  (Or I thought I did).  Once I got the ram chips cleaned and the Enzos attached, I proceeded to install the cooler.  Something wasn't right so I took a quick look and noticed that the front ram sinks were hitting the heatpipes.    So, reluctantly after checking every type of quick fix I could think of, I removed the 4 ram sinks that run parallel to the vid card.  

I then realized why Thermaltake had put the small, wafer sized square sinks in the kit.  The problem was there were only 3.  Luckily the outside sink clears the pipes so a regular sink will work.

OK, with that problem solved I finished the install and thought I would try the little wire thingies that T-Take included to hold a 92mm fan.  Well, I preferred a 120mm fan so I thought I would try it.  It worked!  So, with the fan cleanly attached, (and no plastic ties in sight), I re-installed the card.  The next few minutes were pretty painful.  Waiting for the system to boot, Vista to load, yada yada, and finally to load a program to read my vid card temp.  The factory cooler/leaf blower could keep it at 52.5 degrees C at 40% fan at idle.  Not overly loud but annoying.  I looked at Smart Doctor and saw that my idle temps now were at 42C (at idle).  A pretty neat trick to drop it a bit over 10 C.

Now I am off to run some load tests to see how it performs.  I'll post some temps as soon as I can.  But for now, I am a happy camper since I no longer have the wind tunnel effect going on inside my case.  Ahhh... nice and quiet.  

Good cooler!  Very nice quality.  Just watch out for the ram sink height.

KGW

PS - I swear the ambient temperature feels much more comfortable in my office/playroom since I no longer have a blast furnace coming out the back of my case.  Of course its probably cooling down outside a bit as I have a hurricane heading my way.


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## J-Man (Aug 22, 2008)

TPU GPU. I never knew there was a program like that


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## kg_wolf (Aug 23, 2008)

OK, I ran through an hours worth of Call of Duty 4, frequently checking the video card temp.  I also ran 3 different video stress programs that are, by design, supposed to load the video card with all it can handle.  I ran all tests at 1680x1050, 4x aa and all settings on high.  None of the tests, so far, is a match for the 4870.  It is an awesome video card.

The results were all the same.  Rarely did the 4870 exceed 49.5 Celsius.  A couple of times it hit 50, but only stayed at that level for a matter of a few seconds.  This is a drastic change from the 52C idle and 70 load temps I was seeing with the stock cooler, (@40% fan).

As far as I'm concerned, the Thermaltake HR-03-GT is worth every penny I paid for it. 

I have one more test to run and that is Crysis.  I anticipate that the temp may rise a bit more than I've seen so far.  But nothing like the temps I was seeing before I installed the vga cooler.


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## LuxZg (Aug 25, 2008)

wolf - do try Crysis. I've actualy only done testing with it so far, cos I've found out by an accident that it loads card very much.. What's interesting, it loads it a lot especialy in 1680x1050, and if you tweak crysis for "ultra high" (see this posting for more details, scroll to the picture with table..) you'll get even higher temperatures.

I could have seated my S1 wrong, but when overclocked to 800/1100 and after 1h of running around one level blowing stuff up all the time, on above ultra-high settings 1680x1080 - I got 95C GPU (110 memio!) and 100C VRMs. That's S1, with 2x 120mm fans, although only one has pretty fine CFM, other is avarage fan..

As a comparision, non-overclocked, and on "just" high, in DX9, and 1280x1024 I get 60C GPU (67 memio) and 73C VRMs.

Also, so you know what to expect, on stock clocks/stock cooler, and *60%* fan, I was getting 68-70C GPU and 75-77C VRMs after only 3 runs of Crysis benchmark on DX9/high/1680x1080 .. which last like few minutes only 

I'm yet to try other games, so far I'm still setting up my system, but Crysis sure is a very good testing tool


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## kg_wolf (Aug 25, 2008)

LuxZg said:


> wolf - do try Crysis. I've actualy only done testing with it so far, cos I've found out by an accident that it loads card very much.. What's interesting, it loads it a lot especialy in 1680x1050, and if you tweak crysis for "ultra high" (see this posting for more details, scroll to the picture with table..) you'll get even higher temperatures.
> 
> I could have seated my S1 wrong, but when overclocked to 800/1100 and after 1h of running around one level blowing stuff up all the time, on above ultra-high settings 1680x1080 - I got 95C GPU (110 memio!) and 100C VRMs. That's S1, with 2x 120mm fans, although only one has pretty fine CFM, other is avarage fan..
> 
> ...



Lux, I hope to have the Crysis testing done by this evening, tomorrow at the latest.  I was really hoping to use SpeedFan to graph the temps so that I could go back and get a good reading.  Having to stop, alt-tab to get back to the desktop to see what the temps are is frustrating.  SpeedFan will read VGA temps in XP but apparently not in Vista 64.  It does everything else, but vga.    I am expecting some higher temps with Crysis, that's for sure.

If you do re-seat your cooler, try Ceramique instead of the usual Arctic Silver type products.  Did you use the Arctic Cooling heat sinks they include with the cooler?  

Thanks for the numbers Lux!  

kgw


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## LuxZg (Aug 26, 2008)

I did try with Ceramique, but it was no better.. I did change my fans in the meantime, maybe I?ll give it a try, but so far I haven't got very good opinion about that paste.. maybe it's just too greasy for my likings, so I don't put it on right.. but I get better results with some old paste from thermaltake, like 5-6y old 

As for heatsinks, I gave up for now, cos VRM one is for X800 and I couldn't make it to stay on VRMs.. so I've just used the plate.

And for monitoring, you can use Ati tray tools, it has pretty fine monitoring tool.. Won't show you all the data that GPUZ has, but will shouw you GPU temp, load and fan speed. Also, I usually just let GPUZ run in background, with that option in sensors checked to poll even in bgnd, than I close game after 1h, and see what were the values for last minute or so cos it has those graphs you can read (just mouseover red lines).

Please, get back with the temps, i'm very interested in results  If they'll be much better for you, I'll have to remount everything  though I have done it 6-7x already :/


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## kg_wolf (Aug 27, 2008)

LuxZg said:


> Please, get back with the temps, i'm very interested in results  If they'll be much better for you, I'll have to remount everything  though I have done it 6-7x already :/



Luxg, I have bad news.  The test of Crysis didn't last long.  I loaded up GPUZ's newest version that measures additional temps and then started Crysis.  The CPU temp went up a few degrees which I expected.  But what I didn't expect is the VDDC Slave #1, #2 and #3 temps to go through the roof.

I saw 145 DEGREES CELSIUS!   This high temp was similar on all 3 slaves.  I know they are supposed to get hot, but that's ridiculous.  So, I shut things down and pulled the card.  Thanks to Wizard I noticed from the picture he posted that I had forgotten to sink the tiny but very hot VDDC Slaves, (3 of them).  So, I pulled out some spare sinks and installed them.

I haven't run Crysis again, yet.  I did run COD4 and noticed that the VDDC Slaves were around 80-85C under load.  I guess that's an improvement, but I won't know for sure until I run Crysis.  I'm running the 120mm fan mounted to the cooler but that is obviously not enough to keep the VDDC's at least half-way cooled down.  By the way, the DISPIO, MEMIO and SHADERCORE readings were from 5 to 9 degrees Celsius warmer than the GPU temp.  Certainly not near the Slave temps.

Are these slaves supposed to get that hot?  

I am tempted to pull the card again and re-think the sinking process I used and see if I can figure out a way to cool it down.  I also will re-seat the cooler once again.   Simply having a cool GPU doesn't mean your heat problems are all solved, at least with the 4870.

  I think I hear my phone ringing.  I think it's NVIDIA calling.

KGW


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## nafets (Aug 27, 2008)

Heh, just noticed this whole thread is in the wrong forum, but what the hell...

I posted this in another thread, regarding proper heatsinking of an HD4870 with aftermarket cooling;

If you're looking for optimal temperatures and stability, here's my recommendations for proper additional cooling for an HD4870 using aftermarket cooling and/or water cooling...











*RED* - Needs to be heatsinked. Active cooling is necessary.
*YELLOW* - Needs to be heatsinked. Low airflow or passive cooling is adequate.
*GREEN* - Heatsinking is optional, but not necessary. Low airflow or passive cooling is more than adequate.

Utilizing copper heatsinks over aluminum is preferred, but incurs a larger cost. Go with what you can afford.


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## kg_wolf (Aug 27, 2008)

Thank you nafets!  I'm glad you posted in the "wrong" forum"   

I appreciate your suggestions and I'll be pulling my card out once again.  I agree completely on the copper over aluminum.

Thanks again!

KGW


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## Mussels (Aug 27, 2008)

nafets - thats great info. If you made those pics you should contact wizzard and get it posted as an article, it will help a lot of people out.


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## kg_wolf (Aug 27, 2008)

Mussels said:


> nafets - thats great info. If you made those pics you should contact wizzard and get it posted as an article, it will help a lot of people out.



I strongly second that suggestion!  I would have killed for that information and the photos a couple of weeks ago.  

Nafets is king for a day!


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## annihilus (Aug 27, 2008)

Hi new here too and running a HD4850 passive (complete system is passive). What does the sensor GPU Temp.(MEMIO) stand for? Thanks


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## LuxZg (Aug 27, 2008)

I have seen the above picture before, and have it bookmarked  But no harm done if it gets posted as an article, for a better view on it..

@kg_wolf - I told you that Crysis is a killer  Sorry for disturbing you this much, but better now than later when it could be late


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## kg_wolf (Aug 27, 2008)

LuxZg said:


> I have seen the above picture before, and have it bookmarked  But no harm done if it gets posted as an article, for a better view on it..
> 
> @kg_wolf - I told you that Crysis is a killer  Sorry for disturbing you this much, but better now than later when it could be late



Until I got the latest version of GPUZ I wasn't seeing those VDDC Slave temps.  Thanks GPUZ!

I ran quite a bit of COD4 last night and the worst it got was 84 C on all 3 slaves.  That is acceptable I suppose but I don't like it.  This was also after I sinked the Slaves.  So I still need to run Crysis again to see if that helped at all.  Doubtful.

I knew Crysis would stress it pretty good but that was ridiculous.  I purchased a new 120mm fan today that sports a higher cfm and will do some further modifying.

Thanks Luxg


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## LuxZg (Aug 28, 2008)

NP  When you finish your setup, let us know what are the temps and what you've changed and added so we can copy


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## kg_wolf (Aug 29, 2008)

OK, I spent most of the morning working on this 4870 trying to tame the heat problem.  The GPU temps are great!  Idle at around 42-43 C.  It is the VDDC Slave temps that have me concerned.  So I pulled the card this morning and installed additional heat sinks where I had not had them previously.  It turned out to be kind of a hodge-podge of sinks using copper Enzotechs, aluminum Thermaltake, MC-21 Mosfet coolers and, oh yeah, another fan.

I spent quite a while on how to address the fact that not only does the vga cooler need air passing through the cooling fins and heat-pipes, but the other half of the card needs air too.  So, I came up with what I thought would help get this done.  Please don't laugh at my wiring, as I simply wanted to get the vid card hooked up, the fans running and see if any of this made any difference.







This is how it looked in the case:






The results?

The idle temp is now from 39 to 41 C, about 3 or 4 degrees cooler  I didn't expect a big reduction here since not much of what I added affected the gpu.  The drop is probably due to a higher cfm fan.

The Slaves, #1, #2 & #3 were still quick to get hot under load but not as much.  What was getting from 120 to 140 C was now running from 80 to 90 C.  I did see a few temps above 100 C.  I have not run Crysis yet but only did a video test on Furmark and ATI Tools.  

I have both fans on a controller and will have to make some changes as I had to use a "Y" cable just to get them going.  I've ordered another fan controller where I can hook up each fan separately.  These are Thermaltake 120mm Smart Fans and they can easily run over 2500 RPMs.  With the split cable they are probably only running around 1700 RPMS, so I hopefully can achieve additional drops in those Slave temps once I get them up to speed, (within decibel range that is).

I'm not sure what else I can do to keep those Slaves cool aside from some sort of liquid cooling and that is going to take a very custom-made sink to cover those specific areas of intense heat buildup.

Again, sorry for the crappy wiring job, typically my cases look a little more organized.  If anyone has any additional suggestions, please post it here.  I'm all ears...(or eyes).  

kgwolf


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## Mussels (Aug 29, 2008)

your image links failed.


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## kg_wolf (Aug 29, 2008)

Mussels said:


> your image links failed.



OK, I kind of figured I screwed something up.  See if this works:











I clicked on the wrong selection for posting on the forum... duh...


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## Mussels (Aug 29, 2008)

those ones worked. your card appears very shiny


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Aug 29, 2008)

is there  a heatsink kit designed for the smaller bits of the card (vrm etc)


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## kg_wolf (Aug 29, 2008)

Mussels said:


> those ones worked. your card appears very shiny



Must be the lighting.    It has that effect...


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## kg_wolf (Aug 29, 2008)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> is there  a heatsink kit designed for the smaller bits of the card (vrm etc)



Yes.  It's called the "grab all the extra ram sinks, mosfet coolers, etc. from all the previous installs of stuff over the past couple of years"...  

Just kidding, of course.  I've searched quite a few sites known to handle the latest cooling devices and have found nothing except for those things designed for certain Nvidia cards.

I'm going to assume that the industry got caught flat footed on ATI's 4800 series cards and production of the types of kits you're asking about are not yet ready for distribution.  

I hope I'm not violating a forum rule, but here is what I used:
For the VDDC's, (the tiny chips) I used:
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcmohe.html

For the RAM sinks I used:
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/enbcbmlowprf.html
(Keep in mind if you use the same VGA Cooler, 3 of the front RAM sinks have to be the special units furnished by Thermalright that are the thickness of a quarter, due to the position of the heatpipes.)

For all other sinking I used what was included with the HR-03-GT vga cooler, (which look like these)
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/th88pw.html
(Be sure and click on the picture of these sinks as there are 2 additional pictures of an ATI card using them.  I believe it is a 4850)

I am continuing to see improvements since my last posting and the heat appears to be stabilizing, (if that is possible with a 4000 series video card).  I followed Nafet's suggestions exactly.  I noticed that once the system was up and running I put my finger on each of the heatsinks and trust me, they are doing their job.  The smaller ones were the hottest, obviously, and were almost too hot to touch.

Hope this helps...

KGW


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## Mussels (Aug 29, 2008)

the best ramsink/VRM sink kits are those designed to go with watercooling for the card in question - they tend to fit perfectly and still remain low profile. Of course, they can be hard to find.


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## nafets (Aug 29, 2008)

Great job on the HD4870, KG.

Exactly how I have my HR-03 GT setup up, with two fans.

You should be good to go with lower temps.


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## kg_wolf (Aug 29, 2008)

nafets said:


> Great job on the HD4870, KG.
> 
> Exactly how I have my HR-03 GT setup up, with two fans.
> 
> You should be good to go with lower temps.



Thank you, Nafets, your very timely posting made a huge difference in the way I was looking at keeping this thing cool.  I am seeing the benefits now with lower GPU temps, idle and load, lower Slave temps, (as much as 60 degrees C in full load gaming situations), and much, much less noise coming from the case.

I am able to turn down the fans, (all of them), to their lowest level now and still maintain very adequate cooling, including the case temps.

I'm slowly becoming a happy camper again!  Thanks again for your help, and others as well.


kgwolf


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## LuxZg (Sep 1, 2008)

LOL! Closed the tab before submiting 

Wanted to say - real nice job kgwolf, congrats 

Could you just post a bit bigger versions of those two pictures above? Just post lins to pictures with higher resolution (or originals). Seems like you've sinked EVERYTHING that is marked in nafets picture, nice 

And just to make sure, after you've sinked VRMs with these little fellows, you got 60C drop :-O Meaning you run 55-65C VRMs under load - HELL of a job! Too bad I can't buy these in local shops.. will have to find a way, or order from some nearby country .. :/


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