# water temps not very good



## petedread (Apr 30, 2020)

Just put together a new rig in a Phanteks 719. Had it on air for two days before custom water. Because it was on air for only 2 days I didn't have time to do much testing of temps, but it seems that water has not lowered temps by much.

3950x not overclocked.
280ti gaming x trio
x570 Aorus extreme
480 (38mm)rad with 4 Noctua NF-A12 PWM
360 (28mm) rad with 3 cooler master fans
EK duel pump
400mm xres
2 Noctua 140 fans on case
(280 rad and distro plate coming next week)

When running Valley GPU runs at 64c and CPU at 60-65. If I remember correctly the GPU was running about 10c higher on air. I expected lower temps from so much radiator. Do these temps sound right? Will the 280 rad make much difference?


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## EarthDog (Apr 30, 2020)

The GPU is in the loop as well right?

Either way, you have a shed load of radiator... to the point of diminishing returns already, really. the issue isn't loop capacity, its getting more out of the CPU/GPU faster. So, I don't imagine that 280 rad to do much.

That said, temps seem fine to me... 10C cooler than air is solid... especially in that case. I assume your 480 is in that weird internal spot and the 360 on top? How are they configured inside the chassis?


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## petedread (Apr 30, 2020)

Thanks for reply. No, the 480 is in the front and the 360 on the bottom. The 480 fans are behind the rad pushing cool air from outside the case through the rad. I have not owned a 2080 ti before so I didn't know what to expect from the temps. Your reply puts my mind at rest. 
Aorus rgb fan commander software is unreliable and a pain to use, I have it controlling the 360 fans.

Oh, and yes the GPU is in the loop.


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## EarthDog (Apr 30, 2020)

2080Ti is 230W card, so... its pumping some heat in there too.

When you say 'front' do you mean that weird baffle inside, right? Not inside the front panel? So the only air coming into the case is coming in from the radiator at the bottom (if that 480 is mounted on the baffle, it is getting slightly warmed air from behind the mobo)? Do you have any other fans up top and/or on the rear exhausting air?


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## petedread (Apr 30, 2020)

No sorry I mean the 480 is installed at the front, the regular front position that is in most cases, not that side mounting option. My fans are installed on the inside of the case but behind the rad pulling in air from outside. The 360 fans are also pulling air into the case. A 140 fan pulls air in and A 140 fand pushes air out.


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## EarthDog (Apr 30, 2020)

Although 'pressure' isn't really a thing inside cases, if your rad locations are both intake, along with a rear fan with ONE exhaust, that is incredibly imbalanced. I would swap the rear fan to exhaust and make sure you have two top fans as exhaust as well.

That may help a couple of C if you are lucky.


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## petedread (Apr 30, 2020)

Ah sorry, I am so tired it's 2 am here, I'm not being clear. Of my two 140 fans one is a rear exhaust and the other is on the roof as an intake fan (I will swap it to exhaust). The roof fan is only there because I had a spare fan. The 280 rad will go on the roof next week.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Apr 30, 2020)

The temp alone doesn't matter without knowing the load and duration...
If you're putting this under heavy constant loads then...kudos


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## EarthDog (Apr 30, 2020)

petedread said:


> The 280 rad will go on the roof next week.


return it. 

Put another fan up there as exhaust and call it a day.


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## phanbuey (Apr 30, 2020)

Those temps are pretty high for that much rad -- most likely it's just your flowrate through loop.  If you're using one pump for 3 giant rads and 2 blocks  (and I see some 90 degree elbows in there) then you might just not have the flowrate/pressure needed for those blocks.  Especially if your water/coolant temps are staying low but your hardware is hot then it's likely a flow issue.

easy way to tell:

If the coolant/rads are heating up, then it's a airflow issue and either your fans are choked or you're running a nuclear power plant.... if everything is cold and the cpu/gpu are running hot then it's too much restriction.  You will probably drop temps by getting rid of a 360 and any 90 degree bends you have.

I've been there:








						3 rads in a Lian Li V1000
					

So I got a bit fed up with my overloaded WC system and the external rad mount, which was ugly as sin, and ended up modding my lian li to  hold a bit more rad yesterday.    Here are the pics from the build:  	 	 The drive bays were originally separated from the bottom chamber by about a 2mm...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




I actually had better temps going to a single 480.


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## harm9963 (Apr 30, 2020)

Can you take a  better pic.


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## Caring1 (Apr 30, 2020)

harm9963 said:


> Can yo take a  better pic.


Well spotted, that kink in the hose is definitely going to restrict flow.


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## harm9963 (Apr 30, 2020)

Watch too much of JayzTwoCents


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## petedread (May 1, 2020)

That kink is on a drain port. This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive? 




Ok so I have had some time to do a bit of testing with Prime95. Granted I only ran it for an hour and ten minutes but after that, I ran valley benchmark over and over for two hours. Prime95 never went above 55c and Valley would go to 65c. Fans and pumps run at 65% up to 64c then they slide up to 75%.
When my delivery arrives there will be a lot of '90s added to this loop.


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## xtreemchaos (May 1, 2020)

a very nice build mate well done. me myself id put the bottom rad up the top blowing warm air out, at the mo you got the bottom blowing warm air up over everything which will not help with the over all temp inside the case your just recycling heat but saying that your temps arnt that bad on the gpu it has 2x 8 pin and a six pin so its going to get warm mate.


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## Caring1 (May 1, 2020)

petedread said:


> This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive?


I wouldn't directly connect the CPU and Gpu without a radiator in between, but that's just me, and I would have the 360 Radiator up top blowing air out of the case.


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## petedread (May 1, 2020)

There is not enough room up top for the 360 because I have the fans behind the 480 rad, the fittings are further forward than they would be if the 480 fans were on the other side of the rad. 
I'm feeling better about the temps now that I have been running Prime 95 and OCCT. 
When the distro plate goes in (Phanteks D140) it covers the rear exhaust, so I will either have the two 140 fans up top blowing out of the case or the 280 rad (if I decide to keep it) up there with fans blowing out. I imagine pushing warm case air through the 280 rad shouldn't have too much negative effect?  The only reason I'm still considering the 280 is that having it will make the PETG tubing runs tidier.


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## harm9963 (May 1, 2020)

Air flow  !


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## holyprof (May 1, 2020)

petedread said:


> That kink is on a drain port. This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive?
> View attachment 153425
> 
> Ok so I have had some time to do a bit of testing with Prime95. Granted I only ran it for an hour and ten minutes but after that, I ran valley benchmark over and over for two hours. Prime95 never went above 55c and Valley would go to 65c. Fans and pumps run at 65% up to 64c then they slide up to 75%.
> When my delivery arrives there will be a lot of '90s added to this loop.


That's a nice looking build. I won't give you advice about water cooling because I don't have any experience with such cooling. But I  can recommend you the best test you can do to put your cooling to test.
Run Prime 95 and MSI Kombustor at the same time. No other combination stresses the PSU and cooling system as this. I've tried many programs, but those two hit really hard. My system pulls 30W more (measured at the wall) with Prime95 + Kombustor than with OCCT PSU test (which should be the toughest test of all). If the PC pulls 30W more, it's all converted to heat, so 30W more for the cooling to dissipate.

If your PSU, motherboard, GPU and cooling system can survive half an hour with Prime95 + MSI Kombustor,  it can survive anything. Try it and give feedback about temps please.
https://geeks3d.com/furmark/kombustor/


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## EarthDog (May 1, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> I would directly connect the CPU and Gpu without a radiator in between, but that's just me, and I would have the 360 Radiator up top blowing air out of the case.


Loop order is irrelevant (res before pump is the only rule). With a properly configured loop, temperatures inside dont vary by more than a couple of C at most. 



holyprof said:


> If your PSU, motherboard, GPU and cooling system can survive half an hour with Prime95 + MSI Kombustor, it can survive anything. Try it and give feedback about temps please.
> https://geeks3d.com/furmark/kombustor/


I'd stay away from kombuster and furmark for gpus, personally. The loads aren't realistic and the cards throttle clocks and voltage to fit under the power limit. AMD and nvidia call them 'power viruses' and suggest not to use them.


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## holyprof (May 2, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Loop order is irrelevant (res before pump is the only rule). With a properly configured loop, temperatures inside dont vary by more than a couple of C at most.
> 
> I'd stay away from kombuster and furmark for gpus, personally. The loads aren't realistic and the cards throttle clocks and voltage to fit under the power limit. AMD and nvidia call them 'power viruses' and suggest not to use them.


Well I had a problem with my PSU (but didn't know it was PSU). My PC had random reboots (not even BSOD, just reboot), mostly during games. But enconding video with CPU at 99% load + some GPU acceleration for 30 minutes was OK. Tried swapping RAM, undervolting CPU, overvolting CPU, removing drives from the PC, run OCCT tests (including PSU test), nothing gave me repeatable results. But 10 seconds of Prime95 + Kombustor resulted in 100% hitrate reboot. Then I knew, it was the PSU. Bought a new one, and the PC is working flawlessly now. So one doesn't need to punish the GPU for long periods of time. Worked for me.


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## thesmokingman (May 2, 2020)

petedread said:


> That kink is on a drain port. This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive?
> View attachment 153425
> 
> Ok so I have had some time to do a bit of testing with Prime95. Granted I only ran it for an hour and ten minutes but after that, I ran valley benchmark over and over for two hours. Prime95 never went above 55c and Valley would go to 65c. Fans and pumps run at 65% up to 64c then they slide up to 75%.
> When my delivery arrives there will be a lot of '90s added to this loop.




You have serious airflow issues. Pay attention to intake and exhaust airflow as others have mentioned. What is your water temp btw?

Here's my 719 with 2 HWL Black Ice Nemesis L series Stealth rads, GT AP15 fans, 3900x, Titan XP, etc etc. You'll notice it is setup with equal intake and exhaust fans. Temps wise, the system is very cool. GPU does not break 45c no matter the bench or load. CPU stays under 60c on average in benches or games, and only rises above that under P95 avx. Also, just as important is setting up hwinfo64 in combination with afterburner and rtss which will give you proper temp monitoring w/o creating observer effect issues. Also, the loop runs off the water temp, not cpu temp. Btw, the Stealth rads I use are the highest performing thin rads you can get. The new XSPC skinnies come close. I used to always run thicker rads, from Monstas to EK XE but the 719 is seriously limited in rad thickness so I got the best skinny rads I could and they were cheap as heck too. Win win...

I suggest ya take a gander at this link if you want use hwi/ab/rtss.






						Build: 3970x, dual 2080ti, 8TB m.2 RAID = Render Monster
					

At 95c the chip throttles down.  That's kind of the point to the test.




					hardforum.com


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## harm9963 (May 2, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> You have serious airflow issues. Pay attention to intake and exhaust airflow as others have mentioned. What is your water temp btw?
> 
> Here's my 719 with 2 HWL Black Ice Nemesis L series Stealth rads, GT AP15 fans, 3900x, Titan XP, etc etc. You'll notice it is setup with equal intake and exhaust fans. Temps wise, the system is very cool. GPU does not break 45c no matter the bench or load. CPU stays under 60c on average in benches or games, and only rises above that under P95 avx. Also, just as important is setting up hwinfo64 in combination with afterburner and rtss which will give you proper temp monitoring w/o creating observer effect issues. Also, the loop runs off the water temp, not cpu temp. Btw, the Stealth rads I use are the highest performing thin rads you can get. The new XSPC skinnies come close. I used to always run thicker rads, from Monstas to EK XE but the 719 is seriously limited in rad thickness so I got the best skinny rads I could and they were cheap as heck too. Win win...
> 
> ...


Nice water cooler fitting ✔


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## DemonicRyzen666 (May 2, 2020)

petedread said:


> That kink is on a drain port. This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive?
> 
> 
> Ok so I have had some time to do a bit of testing with Prime95. Granted I only ran it for an hour and ten minutes but after that, I ran valley benchmark over and over for two hours. Prime95 never went above 55c and Valley would go to 65c. *Fans and pumps run at 65% up to 64c then they slide up to 75%.*
> When my delivery arrives there will be a lot of '90s added to this loop.


 I'm just wondering why you're not trying to run the pump at 100%, and keeping the fans on the % curve you have. I'm guessing the pump is loud at full speed. Is it louder than the fans at lower rpm?


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## harm9963 (May 2, 2020)

With one video card in the loop, not much of a issue, three video cards will be.


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## EarthDog (May 2, 2020)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> I'm just wondering why you're not trying to run the pump at 100%, and keeping the fans on the % curve you have. I'm guessing the pump is loud at full speed. Is it louder than the fans at lower rpm?


just have to keep flow rate around 1-1.5gpm...no need to crank it up.


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## harm9963 (May 2, 2020)

petedread said:


> That kink is on a drain port. This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive?
> View attachment 153425
> 
> Ok so I have had some time to do a bit of testing with Prime95. Granted I only ran it for an hour and ten minutes but after that, I ran valley benchmark over and over for two hours. Prime95 never went above 55c and Valley would go to 65c. Fans and pumps run at 65% up to 64c then they slide up to 75%.
> When my delivery arrives there will be a lot of '90s added to this loop.


Pump and reservoir .


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## petedread (May 2, 2020)

Ok so back to the drawing board. But first I should mention that it does not get warm in the case. I have a temp sensor in there and it is always at 27-28c (ambient), No water temp sensor as they are not in stock anywhere at the moment. I am wondering then if I need to reseat both the GPU and the CPU. I did have some real trouble with the GPU block, it seemed to me that EK had sent the wrong thermal pads because they didn't look right when applied but perhaps I am imagining this. I did go over the instructions a hundred times to make sure I had done exactly as instructed. But, the CPU block installation was definitely troubling, I could not get a good grip on one of the thumbscrews. Again I went over and over this installation until I was sure it was ok but maybe I was wrong. I need to Waite for more thermal paste to arrive before retrying. 

Today I will take a water temp sensor from my other rig as this will help us to understand the situation.
I will have a look at your link to HWinfo/ab/rtss.
I will run pumps at 100% all the time.

I always thought that having more intake than out fans was a good thing as this would push case air through all gaps in the case and keep dust out of the rig.

Much to do, thank you all for your advice. I will keep you updated.


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## thesmokingman (May 2, 2020)

petedread said:


> I always thought that having more intake than out fans was a good thing as this would push case air through all gaps in the case and keep dust out of the rig.



That's been addressed here already.



EarthDog said:


> Although 'pressure' isn't really a thing inside cases, if your rad locations are both intake, along with a rear fan with ONE exhaust, that is incredibly imbalanced. I would swap the rear fan to exhaust and make sure you have two top fans as exhaust as well.
> 
> That may help a couple of C if you are lucky.



^^Not only that but fill every available fan spot with an exhausting fan stat. Don't forget you have the vertical row where a 480mm fits that you are not using so stick exhaust fans there too.

The other thing about your setup aside from the seriously imbalanced flow is that you use push on the the front rad and pull on the bottom rad. First you are losing 1c of delta on the bottom rad alone. That is the difference between push vs pull, 1c. Secondly, when using intake on your rads, you then feed the rest of your rig with warm heated air. This makes having ample exhaust doubly important and yet you only have one exhaust. You also need to realize that your pumps are dumping heat directly into your loop. All of the disadvantages add up in a big way. On paper with the amount of rad and pump you have, your temps should be stellar.

Also, if you did have a bad cpu or gpu mount your block temps would be ridiculously high. It would be hard to miss anytime you put a load on the system...

I'd also mention that you are wasting the 719's true advantage and that is using two skinny 480mm rads. The use of two 480mm rads would then allow one to use six/seven fans for intake, 4-140 and 3-120 which matches up to the two 480 rads well.


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## Cranky5150 (May 2, 2020)

The more 90's you add that loop , the more restriction your going to add. With that being said , you have dual D'5's so you should be ok. Air flow i agree is one of the culprits here, but flow-rate could be another as well.


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## petedread (May 2, 2020)

I will flip the 3 bottom fans to make them exhaust fans (this will give me more out than in), then I will order 3 more fans to make that rad push-pull (to compensate for the 480 being push). I have already flipped one of the 140 fans so now the two Noctua 140's you see are exhaust fans. 
I have just got home and I am about to start retrieving and then installing the water heat sensor. 
As for the 90's, I have 4 more 45's to install and possibly 1 90. These are Phanteks and they are quite big as these things go. Is this likely to be a big issue?  I may be able to remove a couple of 90's and replace them with tube bends.


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## thesmokingman (May 2, 2020)

petedread said:


> *I will flip the 3 bottom fans to make them exhaust fans (this will give me more out than in), then I will order 3 more fans to make that rad push-pull (to compensate for the 480 being push).* I have already flipped one of the 140 fans so now the two Noctua 140's you see are exhaust fans.
> I have just got home and I am about to start retrieving and then installing the water heat sensor.
> As for the 90's, I have 4 more 45's to install and possibly 1 90. These are Phanteks and they are quite big as these things go. Is this likely to be a big issue?  I may be able to remove a couple of 90's and replace them with tube bends.



That's a bad idea. Do not mix radiator flow direction between intake and exhaust. The lower rad will just end up sucking hot waste air from the front rad.

As for your fittings, that's not something I worry about much or would not worry about. You have dual D5 which is slightly more than a 35x in static pressure which means there's ample head pressure especially given the simplicity of your loop. If I was gonna break apart the loop just top change out the 90s, I'd fix your rad/fan setup too (ie. all push) and slap in a row of fans where the other 480mm spot is. I would not waste the effort just for some 90s alone.


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## John Naylor (May 3, 2020)

1.  You can use the Radiator Size estimator here to estimate your delta T ... accuracy is usually within 5% versus post built result









						Radiator Size Estimator
					

A few peeps have asked me to provide this info in an easily accessible / findable spot so the don't have to remember what thread it is in or take snippets from multiple threads. If ya find it useful, great .... if ya like something better, by all means use what ya comfy with. First off, I did...




					www.overclock.net
				




It's based upon a delta T of 10C (Coolant - Ambient)  ... if you have say 500 watts and a rad capacity of 600 watts, you can calculate your anticipated delta T by

500 / 600 x 10C = 8.3C

My Delta T is 8.6C with a 280 x 60mm on bottom and 420 x 45mm on top.  System has (4) coolant temp sensors (in and out of each rad) and (2) air sensors for interior case temps and ambient.  These are displayed on a 6 channel digital display (Reeven 6 Eyes) , all accurate to 0.1C

Running RoG Real Bench and Furmark ... both GPUs run at 39C / CPU in low 70s (both OC'd bawlz to the wall).... with fans at max rpm.  Letting them respond to fan curve, fans max out at 800 ish rpm ... temps are GPU = 44C and CPU = 76C.  In gaming GPU @ 40ish/ CPU = 55-63C, water temps around 30 - 32C,  calculated component wattage is 780.

2.  All rad fans should blow in, no exceptions.

a)  You want to cool your GPU with 23C ambient air or 28C inside the case air ?   With coolant at 33C ...
Intake fans: Delta T = 33 - 23C = 10C
Exhaust fans: Delta T = 33 - 28C = 5C
Cooling is directly proportional to delta T so one is twice as effective as the other ... can't argue math.






b)  The other excuse for exhausting thru rads is that peeps do not want to heat up their components >   Huh ?  

You bought and built the cooling system because when you overclock your CPU and GPU, you can exceed recommended temperature ranges or lose performance.  Which of the other components are so affected ?

Is your MoBo going to operate outside of its recommended range ?  Will it's performance decrease when surrounded by 28C air as opposed to say 25 ot 26C air ?
Is your RAM going to operate outside of its recommended range ?  Will it's performance deccease when surrounded by 28C air as opposed to say 25 ot 26C air ?
Is your SSD, SSHD or HD going to operate outside of its recommended range ?  Will it's performance decrease when surrounded by 28C air as opposed to say 25 or 26C air ?  
No it will not and therefore case interior temps vary so little as to render the argument irrelevant

3.  There is no need to "balance" inlet and exhaust fans.    If you have any number of fans blowing in, it creates positive air pressure. ... that alone is all you need to force air out thru the grille space in rear and side as well as vented slot covers.

a)  Kitchen exhaust fan doesn't need to get get "balanced" by an intake fan
b)  Attic fan doesn't need to get balanced  by intake fan
c)  Putting a fan in a bedroom windows doesn't require a "balancing" fan, just another open window
d)  Your car's engine compartment doesn't have a "balancing" fan

All you need to balance a fan or any number of fans in any enclosed space is open area in the enclosure.  The grille and vented slot vorers on your case provide plenty of room for air to get out.

4.  Your water temps will take time to reach steady state conditions  as the heat source warms the loop's thermal mass to steady state conditions which should take minutes.  At that point .. 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week or 1 year temps will remain constant as long as ambient remains constant.

5.  Don't know what pump you're using other than it's a dualie ... I'm using a Swiftech 35x2 w/ heat sink and fan .... Speed is controlled by the CPU temps and ranges from 50% to 80% of full speed.  Suggest seeking a range of 1.0 @ low loads to 1.5 gpm in gaming ... lil higher for stress testing

6.  P95 provides no real value ... it leaves you two choices... use the old version w/ no modern instruction sets or use the new version and stare at the screen monitoring voltages to make sure they stay below the danger level during 2+ hours of stability testing.  Now if ya built the PC to get name on leader boards for OC'ng then you may have a need to use it.  But if you built the PC to run applications, then use RoG Real Bench.  We still use P95 to cycle temps up and down from 80C to ambient to set and cure the TIM.  But no value in stability testing with synthetics when the loads are unrealistic, and you can be 24 hour stable under P95 and fail in a multitasking benchmark like RoG RB.  Yes synthetics can create a higher load but what is the point in testing your system for loads it will never see ?   If you bought a trailer for your SUV to tow your two new 400 pound SeaDoos 3 miles to the shore ... would you test ypour SUVs towing capability by towing 15,000 pounds up and over the rocky mountains ?

6.  "





> I always thought that having more intake than out fans was a good thing as this would push case air through all gaps in the case and keep dust out of the rig. "



Yes that is solid advice, but more importantly .... is there a much bigger problem or problems lurking that you may not have thought of ?   We test this with a  Chauvet Fog machine, worthwhile investment for $39

The top is where most rads go and when peeps design their system based upon 8th Grade Earth Science (Hot Air Rises ... except when fan blowing the other way)   problems occur. One of the items forgotten is that intake fans have filters and exhaust fans do not.  A dusty intake filter can reduce air flow by up to 30%.  So lets look at the typical 360 on top w/ (3) fans blowing out, (1) 120mm blowing out in rear and (3) intake fans w/ filters.  Let's call the cfm for exhaust fan equal to 1 EF (equivalent fan)  and let's say you are anal about cleaning fan filters and they never get worse than 15% ... letting 85% of the air thru

Exhaust = 4 fans x 1.00 EF = 4.00 EF
Intake  = 3 fans x 0.85 EF = 2.55 EF

So now you have an air deficit of 1.45 EF ...yu are short 2 fans.   If you had the fog machine, directing the exhaust to the rear of the case would immediately show the case fill up with fog.  Air entry points are the rear and side grilles as well as vented slot covers.   So yes, your dust assumption is true, their air coming in thru the rear grille and vented slot coves would be equal to 1.5 fans.  And here's the 2nd huge concern  ... what's the air like back there against the wall  ?

Isn't your 280 watts GPU exhausting hot air back there ?   Isn't your 1300 watt PSU exhausting hot exhaust back there ?  Turning your bottom fans into exhaust will just bring loads of hot air exhaust in thru those grilles and vented slot covers.    So yes, there are reasons why cooling product manufacturers tell you that for best results use your rad fans as intakes:

a)  Outside air is cooler
b)  Negative pressure not only brings in dust but hot exhaust air.
c)  Ann extra degree or 3 inside your case has zero effect on your other componentry with regard to longevity or performance


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## EarthDog (May 3, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> a) Kitchen exhaust fan doesn't need to get get "balanced" by an intake fan
> b) Attic fan doesn't need to get balanced by intake fan
> c) Putting a fan in a bedroom windows doesn't requre a "balancing" fan
> d) Your car's engine compartment doesn't have a "balancing" fan


My guy... you're missing the point.


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## harm9963 (May 4, 2020)

From 2015, but still helpful.


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## petedread (May 4, 2020)

16 goddam hours! I only wanted to swap some fans around‍. Removing the bottom rad requires removing the front rad. I had to cut carbon fiber to fit new fans. Developed a leak, and had to move the drain port. I need some sleep, now.  
Found some 1800 rpm Nidec servo. I have put them under the bottom rad. The bottom rad now has push-pull exhaust. There is now more exhaust than intake. Just now have turned PC on, ran Valley, temps same. I am sat 3 feet away from PC and literally I am being cooled by the breeze blowing past me from the PC (those Nidec servo fans are fantastic).
And to top it all off, John Naylor you have really pissed on my bonfire lol. Because I have been away from the forums for so long I thought that maybe my thinking was out of date and the consensus had changed hence 16 hours of hell. Now I have to go and make my bottom fans intake again. I am anal about dust and cleaning and removing two filters was hard to swallow. 
It makes sense to me. The heat coming from the rads and being pushed into the case I THOUGHT would be tiny and also it would escape the case quickly especially as there is so much air coming in and forcing it out. But I don't know right now I am too tired to think. One thing seems clear though. Something else is at play here. I turned on PC after being off for 16 hours so water had not had time to heat up (Valley Takes three minutes to run)


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## Caring1 (May 4, 2020)

petedread said:


> Now I have to go and make my bottom fans intake again.


It makes sense to keep the bottom fans as intake, but top fans should always be exhaust, despite the misinformation John Naylor keeps posting about them being better as intake also.


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## harm9963 (May 4, 2020)

Always do research, measure twice , cut once ,  forum are good for helpful information and well meaning  but misguided as well.


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## DemonicRyzen666 (May 4, 2020)

petedread said:


> 16 goddam hours! I only wanted to swap some fans around‍♂. Removing the bottom rad requires removing the front rad. I had to cut carbon fiber to fit new fans. Developed a leak, and had to move the drain port. I need some sleep, now.
> Found some 1800 rpm Nidec servo. I have put them under the bottom rad. The bottom rad now has push-pull exhaust. There is now more exhaust than intake. Just now have turned PC on, ran Valley, temps same. I am sat 3 feet away from PC and literally I am being cooled by the breeze blowing past me from the PC (those Nidec servo fans are fantastic).
> And to top it all off, John Naylor you have really pissed on my bonfire lol. Because I have been away from the forums for so long I thought that maybe my thinking was out of date and the consensus had changed hence 16 hours of hell. Now I have to go and make my bottom fans intake again. I am anal about dust and cleaning and removing two filters was hard to swallow.
> It makes sense to me. The heat coming from the rads and being pushed into the case I THOUGHT would be tiny and also it would escape the case quickly especially as there is so much air coming in and forcing it out. But I don't know right now I am too tired to think. One thing seems clear though. Something else is at play here. I turned on PC after being off for 16 hours so water had not had time to heat up (Valley Takes three minutes to run)


I feel your pain on long nights like this.
I my self had really old hardware that was acting strange. I was fixing an Am2 board with a phenom 9550 that kept giving me a c1 error on post code led which is ram. Yet throwing in my old phenom 9850 the board booted but only if I cleared cmos, and refuses to save bios changes or restart. After getting fed up with having clear camps to boot and not being able to restart with out a clear cmos. I threw a Sempron LE 1150 in board boots and saves bios changes. so far I only got slot of ram to work on the board. Really the board, Jetway Ha06 780g only supports up 95 watt cpu. Then somehow the windows 7 on the drive lost it's boot loader file making repair impossible. I just threw windows 10 on and stopped. I did run cinebench20 on it  total score was 54 points.


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## thesmokingman (May 4, 2020)

petedread said:


> 16 goddam hours! I only wanted to swap some fans around‍♂. Removing the bottom rad requires removing the front rad. I had to cut carbon fiber to fit new fans. Developed a leak, and had to move the drain port. I need some sleep, now.
> Found some 1800 rpm Nidec servo. I have put them under the bottom rad. The bottom rad now has push-pull exhaust. *There is now more exhaust than intake. *Just now have turned PC on, ran Valley, temps same. I am sat 3 feet away from PC and literally I am being cooled by the breeze blowing past me from the PC (those Nidec servo fans are fantastic).
> And to top it all off, John Naylor you have really pissed on my bonfire lol. Because I have been away from the forums for so long I thought that maybe my thinking was out of date and the consensus had changed hence 16 hours of hell. Now I have to go and make my bottom fans intake again. I am anal about dust and cleaning and removing two filters was hard to swallow.
> It makes sense to me. The heat coming from the rads and being pushed into the case I THOUGHT would be tiny and also it would escape the case quickly especially as there is so much air coming in and forcing it out. But I don't know right now I am too tired to think. One thing seems clear though. Something else is at play here. I turned on PC after being off for 16 hours so water had not had time to heat up (Valley Takes three minutes to run)



You only need more exhaust than intake when you run your rads as intake. You swapped to exhaust on the bottom rad? Did you leave the front rad as intake? Seems to me you still unbalanced. Naylor? He's missing the forest from the trees. AIO makers want you to use intake because it makes their AIO's look better to feed them fresh air while the rest of your rig gets heated up by the hot air. This is AIO retail 101. Decide on intake vs exhaust on rads on your own. Exhaust on rads reduces their perf but it relieves the case of some latent heat, if you have a lot of rad you can afford this. Intake on rads is used when you want to maximize the rads cooling, only used when your rads are weak or not enough cooling on tap. The downside to this is you are filling your case with hot used air, no bueno. Dude...

Btw, ya don't need a drain port. I never ever needed to use a drain port. Drain ports are lame ducks imo, use a QDC instead. Now that is pro, drain ports no. I don't get what the infatuation with drain ports?


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## harm9963 (May 5, 2020)

Happens to the best of us.


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## petedread (May 5, 2020)

@thesmokingman. Quick disconnect is not an option here. Yes front is still intake. I will be draining the loop again soon, to add PETG and another rad (I've decided to use the new rad). So I can rearrange fans then. 
Got some temp sensors. Ran RealBench for 15 minutes.
Starting temps. 
Case air 26c
Water     26c
Room     22.5c
CPU        40c

Finnish temps.
Case air 27c
water     31c
CPU        75c max
This was with fans 40% and pumps 3000rpm

With fans at max and Pumps at 4400 max cpu was 73c everything else the same. Does this still look like an airflow/balance issue? 

This all with no OC on CPU or GPU. John Naylor has two GPU's and you could cool a beer in his rig.


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## thesmokingman (May 5, 2020)

petedread said:


> @thesmokingman. Quick disconnect is not an option here. Yes front is still intake. I will be draining the loop again soon, to add PETG and another rad (I've decided to use the new rad). So I can rearrange fans then.
> Got some temp sensors. Ran RealBench for 15 minutes.
> Starting temps.
> Case air 26c
> ...



I can't tell as your system is only run for 15 minutes. Every loop's water temp starts around 26c-28c at boot up. It takes time for temps to build and settle. Water temp at boot can be as you guessed rather misleading. Run a bench then let it idle until things settle down. That will give a more accurate water temp. Also, what was your ambient temp outside the case at the time? Everything is dependent upon your ambient temp.


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## Sayón (May 5, 2020)

Hi Pete,

The real secret is the use of an excellent Thermal Compound.* 
The ARCTIC MX-4 Thermal compound is EPIC !!!!!!!!*
Put the paste on it like the picture: Use medium thick dots and 2 big ones in the center. Put the cooler on it and slightly spread the paste moving the heat sink in circles, then fasten it with the screws.

*BUY AND APPLY FIRST THIS THERMAL PASTE BEFORE YOU BUY A NEW COOLER. THIS THERMAL COMPOUND WILL AMAZE YOU!!!!!



*

But if you buy a new rig, take a look at the CoolerMaster ML360 RGB....this is one of the BEST for ryzen. My temps dropped from 52 degrees at 4.2 Ghz to 24 Degrees! (28 degrees lesser!!!)


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## Vya Domus (May 5, 2020)

You're original temperatures for the CPU being 60-65 don't seem that odd to me at all, at that point your limiting factor is probably the heat transfer between the dies and the IHS and not the loop itself, because of the chiplets and how little surface area they have cooling just wont really get that much better than this. You can look around and you'll see people with Zen 2 chips and customs loops ecounter pretty much the same numbers. 

As for the GPU the only thing I can think of is that the paste does not fully cover the chip, 2080ti has a massive die, make sure the spread is even across all of it. Also improper mounting wouldn't necessarily mean the temperatures would just jump to something insane, for instance the IHS/chip may make contact with the cold plate but the pressure might be uneven.


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## EarthDog (May 5, 2020)

Sayón said:


> Hi Pete,
> 
> The real secret is the use of an excellent Thermal Compound.*
> The ARCTIC MX-4 Thermal compound is EPIC !!!!!!!!*
> ...


Frighteningly mediocre thermal paste is "amazing"? Read a couple of reviews bud... 

28C drop, eh? Unless your first heatsink and thermal paste application wasnt applied right, there is no way a cooler and thermal paste does that. 

Nice dream.. time to wakey wakey though!


----------



## Sayón (May 5, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Frighteningly mediocre thermal paste is "amazing"? Read a couple of reviews bud...
> 
> 28C drop, eh? Unless your first heatsink and thermal paste application wasnt applied right, there is no way a cooler and thermal paste does that.
> 
> Nice dream.. time to wakey wakey though!


Test it first before you say things without knowing it. It works even with a 240mm radiator, 2x 120mm fans. Let me guess...you apply just 1 dot of paste in the center with a very expensive thermal paste right? Now try it following the picture I posted and post your experience.


----------



## EarthDog (May 5, 2020)

Sayón said:


> Test it first before you say things without knowing it. It works even with a 240mm radiator, 2x 120mm fans. Let me guess...you apply just 1 dot of paste in the center with a very expensive thermal paste right? Now try it following the picture I posted and post your experience.


Please read.... 









						Guru3D Thermal Paste Roundup 2019
					

Thermal paste is an often-overlooked part of most computer setups. You can simply use the pre-applied stuff, or the thermal paste that comes with your motherboard, and still get reasonable processor t... AIO cooling for i9 9900K@5.0 GHz 1.35V




					www.guru3d.com
				












						Thermal Paste Round-up: 85 Products Tested
					

This much-needed update to our thermal paste round-up now includes 85 contenders. It's one of the most comprehensive comparisons available, so we hope you find it useful!




					www.tomshardware.com
				




What you'll find here is that most non metal thermal pastes are within a couple/few C of each other. That said, your results. What cooler did you have before? If those are both idle temps (first, idle is largely irrelevant), then your previous cooler (what was it?) wasnt mounted properly/something else was going on. 

Your application method is close to what I use (looks like the 5 on a dice - larger bb size drop in middle, small at the corners). But yeah, thermal paste alone didnt cause a 28C drop... and context (you didnt mention) certainly matters.

But let's stop pushing MX-4 like it's the holy grail...it isnt.


----------



## Sayón (May 5, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Please read....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand that you are amazed EarthDog but i'm not kidding. Otherwise I wouldn't post that.
I did 2 tests with my old AIO...Coolermaster 240 RGB with the standard paste and 1 test with the MX-4.
With the new Coolermaster ML360 RGB and MX-4 it dropped 28 degrees.
It must be the paste because all settings where the same in all tests.


----------



## EarthDog (May 5, 2020)

Sayón said:


> I understand that you are amazed EarthDog but i'm not kidding. Otherwise I wouldn't post that.
> I did 2 tests with my old AIO...Coolermaster 240 RGB with the standard paste and 1 test with the MX-4.
> With the new Coolermaster ML360 RGB and MX-4 it dropped 28 degrees.
> It must be the paste because all settings where the same in all tests.


You're wrong. Empirical tests I linked to show exactly what the difference is between thermal pastes _*when tested properly*_.  Your application method has nothing to do with it.

Again, it is MORE than obvious you had other variables going on to cause such a significant drop.

Please move on and stop spreading misinformation. THis is not helpful to the OP or anyone else reading it.


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## Sayón (May 5, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> You're wrong. Empirical tests I linked to show exactly what the difference is between thermal pastes _*when tested properly*_.
> 
> Again, it is MORE than obvious you had other variables going on to cause such a significant drop.
> 
> Please move on and stop spreading misinformation. THis is not helpful to the OP or anyone else reading it.


I'm only posting what I experienced with a non-standard thermal paste in combination with my hardware.
If there are other variables for this, (it can be) then it must be something from my mobo because all bios settings except ram timings, are all set to auto. (meg x399 creation)
If you are not open to others that's fine but don't argue something what someone else experienced and shares with others to (possibly) help them out.
End of discussion and peace to you to bro.


----------



## EarthDog (May 5, 2020)

Sayón said:


> I'm only posting what I experienced with a non-standard thermal paste in combination with my hardware.
> If there are other variables for this, (it can be) then it must be something from my mobo because all bios settings except ram timings, are all set to auto. (meg x399 creation)
> If you are not open to others that's fine but don't argue something what someone else experienced and shares with others to (possibly) help them out.
> End of discussion and peace to you to bro.


All I am trying to do is expose you to what actually caused such a dramatic difference. Is it me who isn't being open or you in this case?

I believe what you say happened did happen, however, the reasons behind the change have little to do with the thermal paste. I'm basing my posts on facts from empirical tests. If you were using mashed potatos as your thermal paste, perhaps I can see this...but otherwise, you need to understand that MX-4 is just middle of the pack and isn't the issue here... same with your application method. Your anecdote/help isn't helpful in this situation. It is misleading at best.

Let's be clear here for all reading this............ MX-4 is a mediocre paste...works just fine....but it is nowhere close to 28C drop fine, PERIOD.

....sorry peter...


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## Elysium (May 5, 2020)

You're not really giving us enough data, we need graphs and charts, hard numbers giving us a look at what is happening when and where. If you don't have them already, get GPU/CPU-Z and HWiNFO and post a bunch of data shots. We need to see idle and load temps for your components as well as fan speeds. I kinda agree with Vya Domus regarding your original fan temps but, idk man, two rads well in excess of 300mm _and_ two reservoirs?? I'd expect to see lower temps more in line with thesmokingman's rig tbh.


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## Sayón (May 5, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> All I am trying to do is expose you to what actually caused such a dramatic difference. Is it me who isn't being open or you in this case?
> 
> I believe what you say happened did happen, however, the reasons behind the change have little to do with the thermal paste. I'm basing my posts on facts from empirical tests. If you were using mashed potatos as your thermal paste, perhaps I can see this...but otherwise, you need to understand that MX-4 is just middle of the pack and isn't the issue here... same with your application method. Your anecdote/help isn't helpful in this situation. It is misleading at best.
> 
> ...


Ok, let me put it this way then..for me, that thermal paste did a wonderfull job. Call it luck or whatever it was, I'm more than happy with it so over and out. Anyways thanks for your response


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## EarthDog (May 5, 2020)

Sayón said:


> Ok, let me put it this way then..for me, that thermal paste did a wonderfull job. Call it luck or whatever it was, I'm more than happy with it so over and out. Anyways thanks for your response


You can put it any way you want... but that doesn't mean the thermal paste was in any way a large part of that temperature drop or is it 'amazing' (like setting your ram manually, lol). Move on, Sayon.


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## thesmokingman (May 5, 2020)

Lmao, all that huffing for MX4? MX4???


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## Vya Domus (May 5, 2020)

Elysium said:


> You're not really giving us enough data, we need graphs and charts, hard numbers giving us a look at what is happening when and where. If you don't have them already, get GPU/CPU-Z and HWiNFO and post a bunch of data shots. We need to see idle and load temps for your components as well as fan speeds. I kinda agree with Vya Domus regarding your original fan temps but, idk man, two rads well in excess of 300mm _and_ two reservoirs?? I'd expect to see lower temps more in line with thesmokingman's rig tbh.



There is definitely something odd with the GPU, I've seen people with aftermarket AIO coolers on 2080ti that get lower temps. I'd expect at most something like 55c from a custom loop like that.


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## mrthanhnguyen (May 6, 2020)

Put liquid metal on that 2080ti. Make sure you tight all the screws all the way down.


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## Fry178 (May 6, 2020)

@holyprof
use something like OCCT to put load on stuff (like cpu+gpu to get max psu load), also eliminates running multiple tools at once.

@John Naylor
still pushing the "set radiator as intake" huh?
multiple sites have proven it only helps lowering the loops temps by 2-3*C,
something i can easily get using LM instead of thermal paste, while having lower temps inside the case.
and once you have drives with proper controllers that pass 1GB/s, you will find lower case temps will help a lot to prevent drives from throttling,
even if the rest of the rig is under full load.
Or you want to tell me your running the heater on full in the middle of summer so that you car gets a couple degrees ;ess, you know, experts say its the best... 

@Sayón
im using arctic stuff since about 2003 (and their TMPs were some of the first products), and while its better than stock/toothpaste/anti-seizure stuff (dont even try that one),
its thermal capacity is well below anything that would cause a temp drop thats larger than 5-10*C (depending on cpu/cooler/load etc).
so there was clearly something "botched" on the previous install for this to show such a significant drop.
i guarantee,. no one would spend their time/money to use liquid metals to gain <10*C, instead of using something like 5$ MX4.
completely ignoring the fact that i have yet to see any major site doing a TMP comparison/review getting results anywhere close to yours.
Liquid Metal:             thermal conductivity: 79 W/mK
TP like MX4:              thermal Conductivity: 8.5 W/mK
(so unless the laws of physics don't apply to your room... )


@mrthanhnguyen
not sure that is the issue, iand i wouldn't even bother to put it on the gpu,
as you would need to clean chip/block and reapply the LM at least another 1-2 times before block/chip have saturated (to prevent the LM to turn "solid" over time.


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## xtreemchaos (May 6, 2020)

MX4 is a laugh, you can get cheap paste from china that performs better but i give mx4 is better than toothpaste by far   ...


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## HammerON (May 6, 2020)

Let's not get off topic with what TIM is better or not please. Take it to PM.


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## petedread (May 8, 2020)




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## thesmokingman (May 8, 2020)

I just ran realbench @8gb. Your loop looks like its doing it's job but your gpu is a definite problem. A waterblocked gpu should stay below 50c on average in my experience. Yours is way too hot. The cpu temp on the other hand looks fine, though idle seems a lil bit high for my taste. Btw, how are you monitoring temps, etc with hwinfo? Do you know what cpu sensor you are reading? Mine displays cpu die average however my loop runs off of water temp and not cpu temp.

The cpu is stock and gpu is daily overclocked.

At idle...
ambient 24c
w temp 28c
cpu 30c
gpu 28c


After Realbench
ambient 24c
w temp 33c
cpu 75c
gpu 33c


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## Vya Domus (May 8, 2020)

Fry178 said:


> still pushing the "set radiator as intake" huh?
> multiple sites have proven it only helps lowering the loops temps by 2-3*C,



There is no real difference between having it as an intake or exhaust however if you have one radiator as an intake and the other as an exhaust temperatures will definitely be worse by more than 2-3 degrees.


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## Fry178 (May 8, 2020)

In reality, pushing for 2 maybe 3c less on cpu temps will hurt other things much more.

Just tired of him always posting it regarding what was actually the question/ignoring real world use/impact.
e.g. on a gaming rig the best cooling should be on the gpu, as just passing 54*C will start to drop boost clocks,
and even IF, the gains on the cpu clocks from having the it even 5*C cooler is maybe what 50ish Mhz?
Most of the time gaining 50 MHz on the gpu will have bigger FPS impact than 100 Mhz on the cpu.


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## EarthDog (May 8, 2020)

petedread said:


> View attachment 154214


Why is this an image? WTH?


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## xtreemchaos (May 8, 2020)

i still dont think your gpu temp isnt that bad, the power draw from your card must be high as there is 8+8+6 power connectors , have you found a post with someone with alike setup ? 65c is nothing for a gpu, my 1080 with on 8pin can go upto 55c on heavy vr sessions.


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## Fry178 (May 8, 2020)

not bad?
i can hold 55C with a 120mm rad on AIO under fur load.
sure, not a ti, but it's a ftw with the beefiest power setup i've seen on xx80 cards.


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## Vya Domus (May 8, 2020)

xtreemchaos said:


> 65c is nothing for a gpu, my 1080 with on 8pin can go upto 55c on heavy vr sessions.



My 1080 tops at 50 with a cheap AIO, that's about 200W worth of heat and a single 120 rad. This guy has as much radiator real-state as you can possiblly fit in a case and he's getting 65c on a GPU that let's say consumes at worst 100 more watts ? Yes, the CPU is also in the loop so let's say 400W in total, that's still nothing for the amount of cooling he has.

So let's get this straight, he has a system that dumps about twice the heat my 1080 does but he has what, 6-7 times the radiator area ? Come on, something is definitely wrong. You can expect 65c from a really good air cooler. 

I am fairly convinced the GPU temps hes getting are because of uneven pressure of the waterblock/ bad paste job or something of the sort.


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## xtreemchaos (May 8, 2020)

both your replys are well valid, but me i wouldnt worry too much about that temp id just enjoy the cracking pc hes built, but then again as you say Vya if the WB isnt seated right id have to have a look because 10c lower would be positive. my 1080 when doing benchmarks dont go far past 50c or just under but VR when playing FO4VR really do apply the heat guys.


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## thesmokingman (May 8, 2020)

xtreemchaos said:


> i still dont think your gpu temp isnt that bad, the power draw from your card must be high as there is 8+8+6 power connectors , have you found a post with someone with alike setup ? 65c is nothing for a gpu, my 1080 with on 8pin can go upto 55c on heavy vr sessions.



At 65c on the gpu, that defeats the point of investing in a 160 dollar gpu block. 50c is already already on the high side, let alone 65c which is ridiculous. You've clearly never experienced a blocked gpu in a proper loop. 

lol, the dual 2080ti 3970x render monster I built last Dec which has only has 120mm more rad space than the OP's build, cools double the load of the OP and yet, both 2080ti max out under a 5 HOUR RENDER at 50c.






						Build: 3970x, dual 2080ti, 8TB m.2 RAID = Render Monster
					

I'm building a render machine for work on a variety of applications. It will be an investment in reducing completion times in rendering and content creation workloads. This is a build for an old college buddy who works in the industry. On to the component list. Also, going to start with two...




					hardforum.com


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## xtreemchaos (May 8, 2020)

"carm down man" its just a opinion bro i dont get so hung up on temp its not like its cooking theres more to life, if it ant catching fire alls good to me   i was just saying it wouldnt worry me too much . buddy i dont get blocked gpus or anywhere in my loops because i dont use crappy liqids just distilled water.


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## petedread (May 8, 2020)

@EarthDog Oh, just seen that in the thread. I did not think I had posted that. I was writing a reply in Windows OneNote on my phone to post later when I had a signal. Not sure how it ended up being posted but it is not my finished post. I think I was going to add something about my CPU being on Creator mode everything on auto.
@Vya Domus I will be going back to all rads as intake (just for the dust filters) so there is as you say a few C gain to be had there.
@thesmokingman I did the HWinfo rtss set-up as you suggested. And I will fill that side fan/radiator spot with exhaust fans.

My delivery has been held up because something was not in stock and they did not get around to telling me until I phoned them today. So what I will do, just for the experiment to see what happens is to use the Noctua thermal paste that I have to reseat the GPU block. And then do it again when the better paste arrives. I will do it in the morning it's too late to start now.


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## Fry178 (May 9, 2020)

@xtreemchaos
except at 65C you already dropped at least 50Mhz, and on a ti that hurts.

@petedread 
depends on what your priority is.
cpu clocks? then do intake.
if not, front/side/bottom as intake (no matter what if case/rad) and top/rear as exhaust.
i had used the side as exhaust for the rad, top just case fans, but switching to case intake for side and put rad on top  (exhaust) helped a bit.


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## Nike_486DX (May 9, 2020)

Sayón said:


> I understand that you are amazed EarthDog but i'm not kidding. Otherwise I wouldn't post that.
> I did 2 tests with my old AIO...Coolermaster 240 RGB with the standard paste and 1 test with the MX-4.
> With the new Coolermaster ML360 RGB and MX-4 it dropped 28 degrees.
> It must be the paste because all settings where the same in all tests.


whats the *ambient t*? it has to be the same, otherwise such measurements would be total BS.

But hey, you know what? I was using Arctic MX4 and my temps were really high, now i applied some 
"*Thermal Paste grey Silver Silicone Grease Compound Heatsink*"
and i got 30C drop in temps, using same cooler, same fan rpm and config, even did the same paste application !!
...Well at that time i moved from Ethiopia to Norway, but that is another story 


but honestly, how are you supposed to compare thermal pastes if u dont even take the air t into account?


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## petedread (May 9, 2020)

@Fry178 I'm not trying to get the best possible temps, by this I mean I will sacrifice a few C to be able to use dust filters so I will have rads as intakes and stick more exhaust fans on later. I was just trying to understand if my current temps were normal (apparently they are not). It seems to me that fan direction and airflow can not be responsible for the high temps I am getting, GPU 10c to high. From what people are saying here my GPU should be below 60c and that maybe the CPU temps are to be expected. So I'll be reseating GPU later today and hoping that is the answer. If not, then I'll have to try some of that "Thermal paste gray silver silicone grease compound heatsink" because that sounds like a winner.

And set a -V offset on the CPU, this may lower the CPU temps a little.


----------



## agentnathan009 (May 9, 2020)

First, you are running a 3950X, so it can put out some heat, so I don't see why you are complaining about temperatures.

Second, I am running a measly Arctic Cooling 120mm radiator (1st gen) and my 2600X temps are spiky, as in they are settled around 60-65c but have spiked to 70 and jump around a bit as voltage changes. When going from idle to full load temperature climbs quickly. I take it to mean that the water block is of such quality that it is like heating aluminum, it heats quickly, versus cast iron, which heats more slowly. Were I to have a thicker and heavier water block, I'm sure the spiking wouldn't be as pronounced. Heat has to travel from source to whatever means it is dissipated by.
Third, after prolonged use my radiator gets heat soaked and even turning fans to 100% (using the fantastic Noctua NF-A12 fan like you are as a push fan) the temperature isn't affected much, further suggesting that the block is not able to remove as well as a high quality block.

Third, why do you have your pump running slower? Is it noisy? If I lower my pump at all under load my temps go up quite a bit. So, if you are not running your pump at full speed due to noise or whatever, then it is not siphoning heat from CPU as well as it could and this leads me to say lthat you either need to run your pump at 100% or get a less noisy pump that has pretty good water flow and stop complaining about your temperatures.


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## petedread (May 9, 2020)

Enquiring not complaining but thanks for the advice anyway. I don't think there is much performance difference between different CPU blocks these days. I've noticed temps do not change with pumps at 60% to100%. I use PWM D5 pumps. My last build had 2 rads 1 GPU, 1 pump, and CPU in the loop. Pump speed made very little difference to that setup. This thread has been very helpful, my PC now has a Techpowerup component. 

Starting GPU reseat, back soon.


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## Totally (May 9, 2020)

petedread said:


> That kink is on a drain port. This build is temporary. I am waiting on a delivery of some PETG, a 280 rad, two 140 fans, and a distro plate. I may return the rad as suggested by EarthDog. What do you think now that you can see the whole rig, does it look restrictive?
> View attachment 153425



Sort out your fans, the biggest offender is that top intake fan. It's feeding directly into from what I see is the sole exhaust fan, to add to that any hot exhaust that vents through the top some get pulled right back into the case. I suggest flipping that fan around turning it into an exhaust and adding two more. Check the front fans and make sure they're flowing the right way.


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## Vya Domus (May 9, 2020)

CPU is fine, I doubt you'll ever get below 60c, it's just a limitation of the chip.


----------



## thesmokingman (May 9, 2020)

petedread said:


> @Fry178 I'm not trying to get the best possible temps, by this I mean I will sacrifice a few C to be able to use dust filters so I will have rads as intakes and stick more exhaust fans on later. I was just trying to understand if my current temps were normal (apparently they are not). It seems to me that fan direction and airflow can not be responsible for the high temps I am getting, GPU 10c to high. From what people are saying here my GPU should be below 60c and that maybe the CPU temps are to be expected. So I'll be reseating GPU later today and hoping that is the answer. If not, then I'll have to try some of that "Thermal paste gray silver silicone grease compound heatsink" because that sounds like a winner.
> 
> And set a -V offset on the CPU, this may lower the CPU temps a little.



Dust filters DO NOT matter on the rads because you will have filters on the intake. Your gpu has an obviously bad mount so I would fix that first.

I'm gonna repeat this again. There is only one instance where I would run intake on rads, and that is when you don't have enough cooling. You however have plenty of radiator so it doesn't make sense. Why choose to heat up the inside of your case for slight gains that won't help you? What you should be doing is running exhaust on your rads, use up that radiator surplus to remove hot air inside your case.


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## Totally (May 10, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> Why choose to heat up the inside of your case for slight gains that won't help you? What you should be doing is running exhaust on your rads, use up that radiator surplus to remove hot air inside your case.



Because it doesn't hurt either, without any air-cooled components it'll never get hot enough to matter inside that case. As long as air is moving efficiently it doesn't matter.



EarthDog said:


> just have to keep flow rate around 1-1.5gpm...no need to crank it up.



Thanks...I was scooting along with barely .7 gpm and just convinced myself, that I didn't need a second pump because I really don't have an idea where I can fit it.


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## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

@Totally
look at nvme controller temps when running M2 drives and with proper use they will got hot without any other stuff dumping heat in the system, 
not even talking about vrms and other things that might see a drop in perf/life with temps going up.
e.g. how long will a chipset fan last when ti needs to run vs being completely off, because temps dont go past 60C...


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## thesmokingman (May 10, 2020)

Totally said:


> Because it doesn't hurt either, without any air-cooled components it'll never get hot enough to matter inside that case. As long as air is moving efficiently it doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks...I was scooting along with barely .7 gpm and just convinced myself, that I didn't need a second pump because I really don't have an idea where I can fit it.



Are you daft, the rest of the parts are aircooled. Intake on rads always comes at a cost!


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## Totally (May 10, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> Are you daft, the rest of the parts are aircooled. Intake on rads always comes at a cost!



gpu? is under water. cpu? is under water. vrms? not oc'ing/not hot enough to matter. ram? doesn't care. What else could you possibly be referring to?



Fry178 said:


> @Totally
> look at nvme controller temps when running M2 drives and with proper use they will got hot without any other stuff dumping heat in the system,
> not even talking about vrms and other things that might see a drop in perf/life with temps going up.
> e.g. how long will a chipset fan last when ti needs to run vs being completely off, because temps dont go past 60C...



VRMs can handle up to 100c no issue. I'm not going to comment on nvme.

You two realize that these components run just fine with aircoolers that dump hot right back into the case to be vented by exhaust fans right?

Vrms would be cooled with warmed air from cpu cooler and nvme drives would have gpu exhaust blowing on them (axial blowers).


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## Fry178 (May 10, 2020)

fine doesnt mean full/unthrottled speed.
my case doesn't pass 3xish*C, yet my 970 evo pro already sits at 48-50*C at idle.

i rather not even have a remote chance of impacting overall perf, for a 2-5*C drop on loop temps,
which isnt even what this rig needs, as cpu temp is where it should be, showing loop isnt hot, only gpu (my cheap single 120mm rad gets my 2080S to stay below 55*C on full fur load)
so why run rads as intake, when the loop doesnt even got warm enough to need it?


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## nguyen (May 10, 2020)

Not sure if you tried it yet but just point a thermal IR sensor at the outlet port of your GPU block, if the delta between GPU temp and water temp is over 20C then you must reseat the wb. And well if the water temp at the GPU outlet port is high then there is something wrong with your loop...
My 2080 Ti and Heatkiller IV wb have a delta of 10C between GPU and water temp, with Conductonaut I was able to lower it to 6C so the card peak at 45C with the water temp at 39C in a 27C room.


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## xtreemchaos (May 10, 2020)

has thee reseated it yet then bro, the waiting is killing me


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## petedread (May 11, 2020)

@xtreemchaos yes. And it made a difference. GPU now idles at 30c instead of 34. And so far I have not seen it go above 48c, much better than 66c. I had done a bad job with the thermal paste. 

I have installed a couple of extra exhaust fans. When I'm finished this build there will be a total of 8 extra fans (just for case cooling).
I used Kryonaut for reseating and was not totally happy with the job I did (passable but possibly could be a little better) but didn't have anything to clean it off with, so when I get some isopropyl alcohol and start doing the hard tubing I will have another go at it.

@nguyen Are those cheap IR sensors from banggood ok for this? With what you are saying I do need to reseat again because my delta between water and GPU is almost 20c when running Valley (room 22c water 30/GPU48). Your temps are fantastic. Vya Domus indicates CPU temps are to be expected so with fan direction fixed and extra fans added and another reseat things should improve even further.

When I did the reseat I noticed the card is bent from sagging. I've only had the card for two weeks. It looks like minimal sag when installed but I've never seen a Graphics card PCB stay bent when on the bench like this does. I hope it is not affecting the blocks ability to make good contact.


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## nguyen (May 11, 2020)

petedread said:


> @nguyen Are those cheap IR sensors from banggood ok for this? With what you are saying I do need to reseat again because my delta between water and GPU is almost 20c when running Valley (room 22c water 30/GPU48). Your temps are fantastic. Vya Domus indicates CPU temps are to be expected so with fan direction fixed and extra fans added and another reseat things should improve even further.
> 
> When I did the reseat I noticed the card is bent from sagging. I've only had the card for two weeks. It looks like minimal sag when installed but I've never seen a Graphics card PCB stay bent when on the bench like this does. I hope it is not affecting the blocks ability to make good contact.



I have been in the 2080 Ti owners club over at Overclockers.net forum since the beginning, if I remember correctly some users were reporting that the EK WB are not that great, the temperature is not so good and if you over-tighten the screws it would bend the PCB (so yeah go a littler gentler on the screws).
You can get an idea of the water temp with a cheap IR thermometer pointing at the fittings, remember to point directly and not through the tempered glass side panel.
Valley is not a good stress tester, use the Timespy 4K stability test and check the temperature after 15 minutes or so.
If you have tried Conductonaut before, using it on the GPU would lower the temperature by 4C. I have had it on my 2080 Ti for almost 1.5 years now and it's still good.


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## xtreemchaos (May 11, 2020)

thats very good news buddy, well done. enjoy your cracking system. charl.


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## petedread (May 11, 2020)

@xtreemchaos thanks
@nguyen It seems that EK has not made a very good block this generation. The web is unanimous in this (just had a look). I did not do any research when choosing this block because in the past they have all been within a few degrees of each other. But a water/core delta of 10c or 6c with LM is a million miles away from EK's 20c-23c (have run time spy as you suggested) delta. Other blocks are all seeing the same as you. I am going to loosen some screws now, but I don't imagine it will make any difference. I will buy another block next month. I would not normally spend money like this but I'm in so deep it would not make sense to leave it as it is.


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## nguyen (May 12, 2020)

petedread said:


> @xtreemchaos thanks
> @nguyen It seems that EK has not made a very good block this generation. The web is unanimous in this (just had a look). I did not do any research when choosing this block because in the past they have all been within a few degrees of each other. But a water/core delta of 10c or 6c with LM is a million miles away from EK's 20c-23c (have run time spy as you suggested) delta. Other blocks are all seeing the same as you. I am going to loosen some screws now, but I don't imagine it will make any difference. I will buy another block next month. I would not normally spend money like this but I'm in so deep it would not make sense to leave it as it is.



Yeah but it's really deep into Turing life cycle atm I dont know why you would slurp on a 2080Ti and waterblocks when Ampere is right around the corner. 
So how is the reseat of the wb, did you get any temp improvements ?


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## petedread (May 13, 2020)

I did, Reaplyng the thermal paste got me 15c. But still nowhere near the water/Gpu delta you have. So I took everything apart again and had a look at the screws after what you said about EK blocks. And I found a fatal error! I had put one wrong screw in. A 7mm instead of a 6mm. So today my temps improved even further. I now do not go over 44c on the GPU.

I added a 240 rad whilst I had the rig in bits.

Ambient 22c
case   25c-26c   load 27c
water 25c          load 27c
GPU idle 27c     load  44c

As you can see above the delta between water and GPU is 17c (under load) I don't know if that is down to the EK block but there is nothing else I can do now to bring the temps down anymore other than to try Conductonaut (I have some Cool Laboratories liquid Extreme here but I have read that it is not as good as Conductonaut and that it can be problematic).


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## nguyen (May 13, 2020)

@petedread Jup with Conductonaut you can shave off another 4C with your load temp and that's it. I wouldn't worry about delta temp between water/core that much anymore because as water heats up, its thermal conductivity increase. In my case the water go up to 39C, much more than yours; so yeah there definitely is a diminishing return for overkill loop







Btw here is how my loop looks, still enjoying the view so far , I built this back when 2080 Ti released


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## mrthanhnguyen (May 13, 2020)

Your water temp goes up only 2c at load? How long did you put your system under stress? Thats very good water temp. My water temp idle is the same as you, but under load it hit 32c-34c at load with the 9900ks 5.3ghz only. Add the 2080ti oc and it will go up to 37c-38c. My 2080ti hit 55c max under unigine and never hit above 50c under bf5.


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## petedread (May 13, 2020)

Sorry that's a typo, it is meant to be 29c (water under load). Fire strike had been running for 35 minutes at that point. It did hit 30c after I had written that. No OC on GPU (runs at 1890mhz) or CPU (16 cores, at the time they were hitting 4.25). There are a lot of fans blowing through a lot of rads so the water does not have much chance to heat up.

New radiator.
Still lots of work to do but I need a break. I spent about 24 hours trying to make those two new pieces of PETG and wasted 3 meters of tube lol. And I'm still not happy with them!
@nguyen Beautiful mate. Compact and clean. You won't ever tire of looking at that.


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## nguyen (May 14, 2020)

petedread said:


> Sorry that's a typo, it is meant to be 29c (water under load). Fire strike had been running for 35 minutes at that point. It did hit 30c after I had written that. No OC on GPU (runs at 1890mhz) or CPU (16 cores, at the time they were hitting 4.25). There are a lot of fans blowing through a lot of rads so the water does not have much chance to heat up.
> 
> New radiator.View attachment 155028
> Still lots of work to do but I need a break. I spent about 24 hours trying to make those two new pieces of PETG and wasted 3 meters of tube lol. And I'm still not happy with them!
> @nguyen Beautiful mate. Compact and clean. You won't ever tire of looking at that.



Wow you must have spent ton of time with that loop, though I have a suggestion is that you have the 2080 Ti wb in reverse flow (wrong inlet outlet order) that cause a minor performance loss (1.5C in EK testing, though if you increase the powerlimit it would have more of a negative impact since the liquid cool the VRM and VRAM first then the GPU in the reverse flow), which could partly explain the inefficiency with your 2080 Ti WB.
reverse inlet outlet
Well I had Acrylic tubing and those are a little harder to bend, cost me 2m of tube just to make a 10cm double bends ~_~


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## petedread (May 15, 2020)

I did not realize about the reverse inlet-outlet. I will change that, in fact, I'll start bending tube as soon as I finish typing this. I have decided that I will have a go at applying Conductonaut but that will be a few weeks before I get around to that. 
In order to fill the 480 side rad space with fans, I have to make a bracket for the reservoir so I will have to order some more carbon fiber. At the moment I have one fan in that spot, as an exhaust.
Double bends are the worst to make. If they are just a few millimeters out then It is often impossible to rebend/correct it and keep it looking nice. Luckily the replacement tubes I have to make for the GPU are just single 90's. I'll post results when I get them. Thanks for the help nguyen.


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