# Advise for/against engineering sample cpu



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 15, 2015)

should i or shant i, im looking for stability out of an engineering sample of a Xeon X5680 which is going for cheap.

should i buy or run away, i know nothing of ES chips

http://ark.intel.com/products/47916/Intel-Xeon-Processor-X5680-12M-Cache-3_33-GHz-6_40-GTs-Intel-QPI

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Xeon+X5680+@+3.33GHz

All advice welcome.


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## P4-630 (Nov 15, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> should i or shant i, im looking for stability out of an engineering sample of a Xeon X5680 which is going for cheap.
> 
> should i buy or run away, i know nothing of ES chips
> 
> ...



Well from what I found: "They are illegal as ownership is still with the maker, in this case Intel."
And even: "Engineers arrested for selling sample CPUs on eBay"
http://www.techspot.com/news/46902-engineers-arrested-for-selling-sample-cpus-on-ebay.html


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## Dead_Again (Nov 15, 2015)

Basically Intel doesn't like knowing these samples are 'floating' around outside of their control. They tend to come down harder on those selling rather than buying.

This is of course is assuming said samples are *true* engineering samples...


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 15, 2015)

Intel's policy on *Engineering/Qualification Sample Processors* is quite clear. Engineering Sample (ES) Processors,


			
				Intel said:
			
		

> ...are not for sale or re-sale.
> 
> Intel ES Processors are not made available to the general public by Intel.



So from your standpoint, if you buy or somehow gain possession of one of these devices, you can be charged with possession of stolen property.

That link also tells how to identify ES processors.


Dead_Again said:


> Basically Intel doesn't like knowing these samples are 'floating' around outside of their control.


It is more that they don't "want" it happening. They definitely would _like to know_ when it does so they can retrieve these samples before they (or the technologies they contain) get into the hands of their competitors, or worse, an "enemy" state or "terrorist" organization! They also want to identify how these devices were initially stolen and/or who stole them so they can plug the leak and prevent recurrence. And, finally, they want to prosecute the offenders to the maximum extent possible to deter anyone else from thinking it might be profitable to steal, buy or sell, or simply receive these stolen samples.

In most cases, it comes under the theft of IP (intellectual property) and/or corporate espionage. In some cases, these devices may be proprietary products produced under government contract for classified projects - perhaps used for *C4* or even weaponry products.

In most cases, they are signed out to 3rd party OEM makers under a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) or some other confidentially agreement or some legally binding contract.

So my advice is to walk away and never look back.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 15, 2015)

So are they identifiable through a print on the dye, BIOS or CPUZ  (family, stepping, Model, revision) ?


Can anyone post a CPUZ of an ES cpu please?


It could equally be a genuine part being "suggestively" marketed.


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## newtekie1 (Nov 15, 2015)

I've had few engineering sample processors.  I ran a Xeon X3370 overclocked to 4.0GHz for several years, ran flawlessly.  Obviously they are from early production runs, but Intel pretty much ironed the kinks out by the time they start sending out engineering samples.  Yes, they are marked on the IHS, as well as they have ES added to the end of their name in their name registry, so they show up on the system with an (ES) at the end of their name.

Like this:


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 15, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> So are they identifiable through a print on the dye, BIOS or CPUZ  (family, stepping, Model, revision) ?


 

If you read the Intel link I provided above you will note it says there may be samples that are "unmarked" ES processors and in such cases, Intel says to run their Intel® Processor Identification Utility.


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## Norton (Nov 15, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> im looking for stability out of an engineering sample of a Xeon X5680


If it's a later stepping then it _should_ run fine. However, since they are not retail chips there is no guarantee of anything, including stability, compatibility, etc.. so YMMV



CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> should i buy?


Since ES chips are the property of/owned by the manufacturer you cannot legally buy or sell one. If you happen to have one just remember the manufacturer has the right to demand the return of their property at any time.

Short version- Use Caution/Know the risks


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## Kursah (Nov 15, 2015)

In my experience ES chips are usually pretty damn good performers and clockers. I've seen a few come and go.

I won't tell you to buy it, but should you acquire it for use, I am sure it'll be a decent chip. Some ES chips run at lower voltages and can clock higher, some have soldered IHSs versus their consumer production run counterparts so they run cooler. Its YMMV...but that can be said of a new CPU as well.

I hope to come across an ES haswell or devils canyon at some point to see how it compares to my current 4970k's.


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## cadaveca (Nov 15, 2015)

I have many ES CPUs in my possession. My recommendation? Don't buy it. For one, you are then a participant in an illegal act (I'm not sure why anyone with an ES CPU would sell it, that in and of itself is pretty fishy since they signed a fairly tight contract in order to get it, and if found out, will likely never see another chip again),

Secondly, these chips are likely to be abused while also NOT being some of the best chips ever, contrary to popular belief. ES CPUs are typically just the same as any other chip. I have 3x 4960X, and of the three, only one was "good", and the best it can do is 4.5 GHz (pretty average). Intel sends out chips that are good and bad, and average, since those that get ES chips do need to be aware of how these chips might work in general, and only select reviewers are likely to get good chips (those that benchmark). Meanwhile, I am pretty sure that using an ES chip to post benchmarks on HWBOT puts you outside of the general user category.

For my third reason why, it's pretty simple. ES chips tend to degrade quickly. It is like there is some sort of timer on them, and after so many hours, they start to fail, then clock worse, then don't work at all, and I have had this happen to many ES CPUs over the years.

As a person that has some access to ES CPUs, it truly saddens me to even see this type of subject come up. Someone out there doesn't value their job, and the reason why has me quite worried. It is possible this chip was given to someone who did not sign contracts with Intel, and the seller may get whomever gave them the chip into a whole lot of trouble... like career-ending trouble.


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## remixedcat (Nov 15, 2015)

I have seen this clearly on eBay for 2 pieces of beta hardware I've tested as well and I SMH hard..

Do not buy from them also since you might get blacklisted from several beta hardware tests as well


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## Kanan (Nov 16, 2015)

Somewhat offtopic, but:


> For my third reason why, it's pretty simple. ES chips tend to degrade quickly. It is like there is some sort of timer on them, and after so many hours, they start to fail, then clock worse, then don't work at all, and I have had this happen to many ES CPUs over the years.


Why do you think are they degrading faster? This surprised me quite a bit.


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## buildzoid (Nov 16, 2015)

Kanan said:


> Somewhat offtopic, but:
> 
> Why do you think are they degrading faster? This surprised me quite a bit.



It would be quite easy to on purpose add a few things to the CPU that degrade at typical operating voltages faster than everything else does.


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## cadaveca (Nov 16, 2015)

Kanan said:


> Somewhat offtopic, but:
> 
> Why do you think are they degrading faster? This surprised me quite a bit.


Honestly, that just my experience. There's nothing more to it than that. Because I use my ES chips for board reviews and such stuff, I do not push them very hard unless I have many, since I need to use same chip for all reviews, or things like power consumption aren't relevant. So I treat most delicately, since they are quite valuable to me, more than a retail chip would be.

I did have a theory or two...

A: Could be simply because most ES chips I get long before launches, and as such, may not be subject to the same quality controls that retail chips are...

B: The top "metal layers" of the CPU may not be as "thick" as retail chips. To explain this, look at Fury GPU. Notice how the GPU itself does not show any traces, but the interposer does? This is due to added layers on top, AFAIK. Lacking those layers may make a chip more fragile, and have greater susceptibility to problems introduced by successive heating/cooling.

Obviously, "A" makes the most sense.

But beyond that, I really do not know why I have experienced this with my ES chips. Just some silly ideas.



buildzoid said:


> It would be quite easy to on purpose add a few things to the CPU that degrade at typical operating voltages faster than everything else does.



I have thought about this too. Could be, since ES chips are used mostly for validation purposes only. That means they don't really have to function 100% correctly.


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## Kanan (Nov 16, 2015)

Very interesting, thank you (that button didn't suffice).


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 16, 2015)

@cadaveca 

the advert makes reference to the hours on the chip and i feel this has significance in this case. (why would you mention how few hours you put on a cpu that potentially could run for decades)



I'm spooked, scared of the vendor rather than the item...........
i wouldnt mind losing the money, but i cant bear the thought of losing my fine reputation with Intel 

i wrote to the vendor and received no reply.

Time to look for a different Xeon.


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## silentbogo (Nov 16, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> @cadaveca
> 
> the advert makes reference to the hours on the chip and i feel this has significance in this case. (why would you mention how few hours you put on a cpu that potentially could run for decades)
> 
> ...


As with an article mentioned in post #2, those are potentially stolen CPUs. E.g. most tech companies, reviewers, and distributors only receive a few samples, so if someone is selling bulk, you know where it came from.
BTW, if you don't mind losing money, I could really use some beer. This will keep your conscience clear, and your reputation with Intel as high as ever


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 16, 2015)

silentbogo said:


> As with an article mentioned in post #2, those are potentially stolen CPUs. E.g. most tech companies, reviewers, and distributors only receive a few samples, so if someone is selling bulk, you know where it came from.
> BTW, if you don't mind losing money, I could really use some beer. This will keep your conscience clear, and your reputation with Intel as high as ever




When i said i dont mind losing money, i said it through the lips of a Welshman. 

 I look at it the same way as going to a theme park for the afternoon or did the kids get 400 quids worth of fun out of that massive trampoline, did i get value for money?

I expect Intel love people like me, i might buy 10 chips a year, none of them new and none of them AMD.


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## basco (Nov 16, 2015)

there are good and bad.
i got a 980x es worked for 4 weeks after that suddenly only 1 core working-no more es for me


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## Bill_Bright (Nov 16, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> (I'm not sure why anyone with an ES CPU would sell it, that in and of itself is pretty fishy since they signed a fairly tight contract in order to get it, and if found out, will likely never see another chip again),


I cannot imagine anyone who received an ES CPU legitimately would ever sell it for the reasons you stated. So I can only guess/assume it was obtained by the seller illegally - that is, stolen.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 23, 2015)

it sold for £ 88.00

not to me i hasten to add, i would have chanced a tenner.


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