# Sound card or Amplifier?



## Hayder_Master (Oct 15, 2019)

Hello sound geeks..
I am going to purchase HD 800S headphone.
I am listening to musics using my PC, I like *high quality audio and gaming* using headphone, and i have now creative sound card AE-5 and HE 400i headphone.
So what you think guys, it's need to purchasing an amplifier over my sound card like Apollo Twin MKII maybe? or replacing my sound card with Asus Essence STX II? i need your advice please.
BTW i just remember something, i have IBasso DX90 if there is a way i can use it in the middle maybe, don't know just asking.

Thanks everyone


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## Bones (Oct 15, 2019)

I'd have to say the Apollo looks like the better of the two choices you've named but probrably the more expensive one too. Also desktop room is a consideration since it looks like the Apollo is external to the PC case, the Asus is like most any other soundcard in placement.

Personally I like the Apollo as a supplement to what you have already BUT what it amplifies is only as good as what it receives to amplify in the first place. If it's receiving crappy audio then it's amplifying crappy audio and that's simple enough to understand.

I'd get my sound quality how I'd want it *first*, then look into amplification of it as the next step of the process.


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## Chomiq (Oct 15, 2019)

Doesn't look too me like ae-5 has xlr output which you need for 800s.


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## micropage7 (Oct 15, 2019)

better sound card especially if you run high res audio and if you have money you could add amplifier
like the title sound card will process your digital audio into sound and amplifier will push the sound to the speaker or head phones

so for me better sound card and isolation from any interference


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## authorized (Oct 15, 2019)

My opinion is that the pc's only job when it comes to audio is to output it digitally, the rest is up to a dac and any other audio equipment that is not inside the pc.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 15, 2019)

Hayder_Master said:


> Hello sound geeks..
> I am going to purchase HD 800S headphone.
> I am listening to musics using my PC, I like *high quality audio and gaming* using headphone, and i have now creative sound card AE-5 and HE 400i headphone.
> So what you think guys, it's need to purchasing an amplifier over my sound card like Apollo Twin MKII maybe? or replacing my sound card with Asus Essence STX II? i need your advice please.
> Thanks a lot everyone



Long time. Dude, anyways Creative Labs have new Soundcards, you may want to look at HT Omega and Auzentech too.


Or E-MU


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## robot zombie (Oct 15, 2019)

Sound card DACs really aren't too bad these days, but once you get to the point where you're looking at DACs that on thier own cost as much as a sound card... the comparisons get much wider.

Just something to consider when looking at amps. 

Conventional wisdom says output is only as good as source at best. But it also says when seeking better sound quality the order is trasducers > amplification > conversion.

So unless your dac is really pitifully bad, amp is the surest bet. Can always grab a DAC later.

Really depends on how good your current card is, how much you ultimately are willing to spend, and convenience factors.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 15, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> HT Omega and Auzentech too.
> Or E-MU



HT Omega = near dead using Cmedia = no driver, last card Fenix in 2013.
Auzentech = totally dead, bankrupt
E-EMU = Dead. Label put on rebranded Creative headphones recently. They haven't released something we know it in years. Last E-MU 1212M PCIe showed up in 2013 and isn't available anywhere.

Update your stuff dude...


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## Hayder_Master (Oct 16, 2019)

Bones said:


> I'd have to say the Apollo looks like the better of the two choices you've named but probrably the more expensive one too. Also desktop room is a consideration since it looks like the Apollo is external to the PC case, the Asus is like most any other soundcard in placement.
> 
> Personally I like the Apollo as a supplement to what you have already BUT what it amplifies is only as good as what it receives to amplify in the first place. If it's receiving crappy audio then it's amplifying crappy audio and that's simple enough to understand.
> 
> I'd get my sound quality how I'd want it *first*, then look into amplification of it as the next step of the process.


so you say take the asus card and add apollo is the best options?



Chomiq said:


> Doesn't look too me like ae-5 has xlr output which you need for 800s.


i can use an adapter right? something high quality or maybe i need the amp. too



micropage7 said:


> better sound card especially if you run high res audio and if you have money you could add amplifier
> like the title sound card will process your digital audio into sound and amplifier will push the sound to the speaker or head phones
> 
> so for me better sound card and isolation from any interference


then sound card first



authorized said:


> My opinion is that the pc's only job when it comes to audio is to output it digitally, the rest is up to a dac and any other audio equipment that is not inside the pc.


sure



eidairaman1 said:


> Long time. Dude, anyways Creative Labs have new Soundcards, you may want to look at HT Omega and Auzentech too.
> 
> 
> Or E-MU



Hello my friend how is goin, yeah long time ..
Ok i will see the new creative i hope it better than the asus



robot zombie said:


> Sound card DACs really aren't too bad these days, but once you get to the point where you're looking at DACs that on thier own cost as much as a sound card... the comparisons get much wider.
> 
> Just something to consider when looking at amps.
> 
> ...


ok so creative card have DAC also asus too i think


Ferrum Master said:


> HT Omega = near dead using Cmedia = no driver, last card Fenix in 2013.
> Auzentech = totally dead, bankrupt
> E-EMU = Dead. Label put on rebranded Creative headphones recently. They haven't released something we know it in years. Last E-MU 1212M PCIe showed up in 2013 and isn't available anywhere.
> 
> Update your stuff dude...



Yes drivers is the priority issues especially with new windows 1903 update

*BTW guys I just remember something, I have IBasso DX90 if there is a way i can use it in the middle maybe, don't know just asking.*


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## Aquinus (Oct 16, 2019)

Chomiq said:


> Doesn't look too me like ae-5 has xlr output which you need for 800s.


XLR is optional on these headphones.


Hayder_Master said:


> BTW guys I just remember something, I have IBasso DX90 if there is a way i can use it in the middle maybe, don't know just asking.


The problem isn't having a DAC. The DAC just makes everything sound better, but it won't sound better if you can't hear it. The 800S are 300 ohm cans. You *really* need a headphone amplifier to drive a pair of cans like this. If you're spending over 1,000 USD on a pair of cans, I would highly suggest you not cheap out with the hardware driving it.

Edit: For reference, I have a pair of HD 380 Pros and I use a Fiio E17k Alpen 2 USB DAC and Amp with them.


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## Chomiq (Oct 16, 2019)

My initial question should be - do you really need $1000+ headphones if you wonder if you can use them with your "gaming" soundcard. You sure you're not just spending money because you can?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 16, 2019)

If you use ibasso dx90 dac get a good amp


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## Bones (Oct 16, 2019)

Hayder_Master said:


> so you say take the asus card and add apollo is the best options?


If you are deadset on the exact pieces you've named then yes, the Asus first then the amp.


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## CityCultivator (Oct 17, 2019)

That Apollo Twin Mk2 is a digital device, right?
Why then buy a soundcard?


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## Hayder_Master (Oct 17, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> XLR is optional on these headphones.
> 
> The problem isn't having a DAC. The DAC just makes everything sound better, but it won't sound better if you can't hear it. The 800S are 300 ohm cans. You *really* need a headphone amplifier to drive a pair of cans like this. If you're spending over 1,000 USD on a pair of cans, I would highly suggest you not cheap out with the hardware driving it.
> 
> Edit: For reference, I have a pair of HD 380 Pros and I use a Fiio E17k Alpen 2 USB DAC and Amp with them.


ok can you tell me more about it? sure i want to get best sound quality 



Chomiq said:


> My initial question should be - do you really need $1000+ headphones if you wonder if you can use them with your "gaming" soundcard. You sure you're not just spending money because you can?



not only for gaming, but as i mention am always try to hear something better so it's not just spent i want to use the best i can spend for it



eidairaman1 said:


> If you use ibasso dx90 dac get a good amp



with PC?



Bones said:


> If you are deadset on the exact pieces you've named then yes, the Asus first then the amp.


 
no that was my search i am looking for best options, please tell me if there is something better 



CityCultivator said:


> That Apollo Twin Mk2 is a digital device, right?
> Why then buy a soundcard?



As I know I should have good sound quality in output before it amplifier it


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Hayder_Master said:


> ok can you tell me more about it? sure i want to get best sound quality
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, pc, dac, amp


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## CityCultivator (Oct 17, 2019)

Hayder_Master said:


> As I know I should have good sound quality in output before it amplifier it


Digital audio is identical, whether from soundcard or onboard.


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## Papahyooie (Oct 17, 2019)

Conventional wisdom says that output can only be as good as the source, BUT... you're talking about a set of 300 ohm cans here... They're not going to sound good, if they even work at all, without an amplifier. Get an amp first. If you don't have an amp, those will not sound any better than a $100 set, IF they can even be driven to an audible volume without one.

If I'm being totally honest here though, if you're asking this question, you shouldn't be spending $1600 on a set of headphones. You're wasting your money. Get a $500 set of cans, a really nice amp, and a really nice external DAC for the same price. If you're spending $1600 bucks on a set of cans, you should already have a top quality DAC and amp.

EDIT: I just happened to look up your sound card (that you have now) and they claim to be able to drive up to 600 ohm headphones... I doubt it... At $179 for a sound card, DAC, AND amplifier? Not happening. Not in a way that is going to do justice to 800S's. I can't stress enough, if you've got the budget for 800S's, you should divert MOST of that budget in fact, to a really nice external DAC and amp. A good DAC and amp will elevate even  your HE400i set to something that will sound better, have more definition and clarity, than a set of 800S's will on your current sound card. If I were in your shoes, I'd get an amp and DAC and see how they sound on your HE400i. Then, if you like what you hear and need more, then look at new cans. 

A lot of the reason I say this is... I think you'll be disappointed in the 800S's for your use case. They will legit sound horrible for gaming, because they are going to expose how horrible the source is. Gaming audio is not the cleanest, most high fidelity sound around, to say the least... And the 800S's will expose that, and you'll hate it. It will sound far worse than your current setup, I imagine. On top of that, you're not even coming close to getting the most you could out of your HE400i set with that sound card. They're an amazing set of cans! Get an amp and dac, and you'll fall in love with them all over again.


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## Hayder_Master (Oct 20, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> Conventional wisdom says that output can only be as good as the source, BUT... you're talking about a set of 300 ohm cans here... They're not going to sound good, if they even work at all, without an amplifier. Get an amp first. If you don't have an amp, those will not sound any better than a $100 set, IF they can even be driven to an audible volume without one.
> 
> If I'm being totally honest here though, if you're asking this question, you shouldn't be spending $1600 on a set of headphones. You're wasting your money. Get a $500 set of cans, a really nice amp, and a really nice external DAC for the same price. If you're spending $1600 bucks on a set of cans, you should already have a top quality DAC and amp.
> 
> ...



I become think about HD700


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## MazeFrame (Oct 20, 2019)

Before throwing money at headphones, and your HE 400i are good cans, make up your mind about what you want to achieve.
Maybe you want punchy base, then look into something like the Neumann NDH-20 (they also need power).
Maybe you are gaming in a noisy environment (LAN parties, etc.), then closed back will make a world of difference.
When you lock yourself in your gaming room and are only surrounded by the silent humming of your PC, then you are looking at the wrong piece of kit to upgrade.


For the Sennheiser HD 800S (and any other high quality headphone/speaker setup), you want to get your PC to do no more than be the source of digital audio (*SPDIF*, *TOSLINK*, AES, ADAT, MADI, MIDI).

You could for example feed an aune X8 via Toslink and have that in turn feed feed an aune X7S.

At the very least, you will need a headphone amplifier for these. And what that amp will do is take sound coming from the electrically noisiest environment there is (apart from a 3 phase converter), and put power to it.

With all of that said: Do not buy HD 800S for gaming.


Also: Sennheiser headphones have a very Sennheiser sound signature, just like beyerdynamic has their V sound signature. Be aware of that before buying their most expensive (ignoring the HE-1) headphone!


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## Aquinus (Oct 20, 2019)

Hayder_Master said:


> I become think about HD700


Why?

Before you said you want the "best sounding audio," but that's subjective. What exactly about your current setup do you not like?


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## Grog6 (Oct 20, 2019)

I'm running a set of Razer Tiamats directly from my sound card, for 7.1 surround, and I really like it.

I've noticed in games that you can hear someone walk all the way around you, if you're cloaked.  (Crysis Wars)

I definitely can't hear well enough for a setof $1500 headphones.


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## jallenlabs (Oct 20, 2019)

I use and recommend external DACs too.  Use your fiber optic connection from your PC to your DAC, then run that to your headphone amp.  Schiit Audio makes great, affordable stuff and may have everything you need on their site.





						Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California
					






					www.schiit.com


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## Papahyooie (Oct 21, 2019)

Second Schiit. Get whatever DAC and AMP you want to fit your budget, and hook up your current headphones to them. Then, if you want more, upgrade the cans.


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## Hayder_Master (Oct 24, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Why?
> 
> Before you said you want the "best sounding audio," but that's subjective. What exactly about your current setup do you not like?


I don't know I am confusing, Seems the HD800s will not give real performance on PC



jallenlabs said:


> I use and recommend external DACs too.  Use your fiber optic connection from your PC to your DAC, then run that to your headphone amp.  Schiit Audio makes great, affordable stuff and may have everything you need on their site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So as DAC with AMP i see lyr is the best option here right?



Papahyooie said:


> Second Schiit. Get whatever DAC and AMP you want to fit your budget, and hook up your current headphones to them. Then, if you want more, upgrade the cans.


It's ok give me all possible upgrades with HD800s


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## Jetster (Oct 24, 2019)

Any modern Amp or AVR with HDMI will be the best option for your headphones. This would be the Amp and DAC in one
There are some disadvantages to optical (Toslink) but it will work with stereo. HDMI has a larger bandwidth

*HDMI* can pass higher-resolution audio, including the formats found on Blu-ray: Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio. These formats can't get transmitted across *optical*


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## Aquinus (Oct 24, 2019)

Hayder_Master said:


> I don't know I am confusing, Seems the HD800s will not give real performance on PC


If you really want help, answering this question could help:


Aquinus said:


> What exactly about your current setup do you not like?


Knowing this will help inform what is good for your uses. For example, if you get the HD800, HD700, or HD650 but expect flat response, you're going to be disappointed just as someone who wants more bass will be disappointed with the HD280 or 380s. What you want will influence which product is ideal for your use case and if you can't explain what you want, you probably have no business buying audiophile headphones if I'm going to be brutally honest.


Jetster said:


> These formats can't get transmitted across *optical*


For headphones you don't need more than 192Khz/24-bit uncompressed 2-channel PCM which optical is capable of doing. You don't need 8 channels of that for headphones.

Edit: Even 192Khz/24-bit might be excessive unless you have content sampled at that rate.


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## Jetster (Oct 24, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> For headphones you don't need more than 192Khz/24-bit uncompressed 2-channel PCM which optical is capable of doing. You don't need 8 channels of that for headphones.
> 
> Edit: Even 192Khz/24-bit might be excessive unless you have content sampled at that rate.



The only point I was trying to make was if your going to drop $1500 on phones and $500 on a DAC than you might as well get the newer tech. Then if we wanted to expand it's ready


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## Aquinus (Oct 24, 2019)

Jetster said:


> The only point I was making was if your going to drop $1500 on cans and $500 on a DAC than you might as well get the newer tech. Then if we wanted to expand it's ready


Sure, but as I said to the OP:


Aquinus said:


> if you can't explain what you want, you probably have no business buying audiophile headphones if I'm going to be brutally honest.


I think this is true even if you have the funds to throw unlimited money at a problem. When I bought my headphones I specifically wanted closed-backed flat-response headphones. If I didn't, I could also spend $1,500 and not get what I wanted.


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## Jetster (Oct 24, 2019)

Audio-Technica ATH-M50x are nice with a nice sound card sound pretty good.


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## Aquinus (Oct 24, 2019)

Jetster said:


> Audio-Technica ATH-M50x are nice with a nice sound card sound pretty good.


I think I was looking at the M60x when I eventually just got the Sennheiser HD380s.

Edit: FWIW, I use a Fiio E17k Alpen 2 and it gets the job done, is very portable, and works with my iPhone.


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## MazeFrame (Oct 24, 2019)

Jetster said:


> Audio-Technica ATH-M50x are nice with a nice sound card sound pretty good.


Don't bother with the M50's, the 40's are just as good for cheaper.



Jetster said:


> *HDMI* can pass higher-resolution audio, including the formats found on Blu-ray: Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio. These formats can't get transmitted across *optical*


ADAT and MADI would like a word with you.
For headphones, there is no need for more than two channels at 192kHz 24bit. All the other smoke and mirror tech is not needed (or wanted).


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