# Watercooling loop order



## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 4, 2009)

Ok im not too sure, i set up my first watercooling setup the other day and went with my instinct on the order however ive heard this second setup works better.

The kit i used is:

-Black Ice 240cm rad
-Swiftech Apogee GT
-XSPC 12v 10w pump/res (modded to 18w by tigger)
-Tygun Tubing and Jubilee clamps


My order is:

PUMP/RES > CPU BLOCK > DOUBLE RAD

What I heard was:

PUMP/RES > DOUBLE RAD > CPU BLOCK

Atm my temps are:

IDLE






LOAD





These temps good or bad?

Lastly what i want to ask is, ive got a spare single rad to slot in the loop somewhere for when i get a good gpu block for my 4870 non reference 1gb. What would the ideal loop setup be for this?


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## erocker (Aug 4, 2009)

D3M0N-G4M3R said:


> Ok im not too sure, i set up my first watercooling setup the other day and went with my instinct on the order however ive heard this second setup works better.
> 
> The kit i used is:
> 
> ...



Best order is: Pump-->Rad-->CPU Block-->Res.-->Pump

If you are adding another rad + gpu into the loop: Pump-->Rad-->Rad-->CPU Block-->GPU Block-->Res.-->Pump

Temps look good.


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## DanishDevil (Aug 4, 2009)

Is that because the pump heats the water up a bit?


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## erocker (Aug 4, 2009)

DanishDevil said:


> Is that because the pump heats the water up a bit?



It really does. I was leak testing without running fans through my radiator and I couldn't believe how warm things were getting.


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## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 4, 2009)

erocker said:


> Best order is: Pump-->Rad-->CPU Block-->Res.-->Pump
> 
> If you are adding another rad + gpu into the loop: Pump-->Rad-->Rad-->CPU Block-->GPU Block-->Res.-->Pump
> 
> Temps look good.



Ah ill go with that then when i finally do it, you sure that both rads should be next to each other in the loop, wont the water be hot on its journey from cpu to gpu?


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## Icewind31 (Aug 4, 2009)

Loop order doesn't matter as long as res is before pump, put it in the order that makes the most sense in terms of layout in your case.

Loop temps reach equilibrium over time. Only time you'll notice is when you first turn on the system and measure.


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## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 4, 2009)

Ah i see, i think ill still go with erockers plan though and go res/pump rad, this pump does get rather warm so it might be better to dump off that heat and cool it completely through 2 rads.


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## erocker (Aug 4, 2009)

Icewind31 said:


> Loop order doesn't matter as long as res is before pump, put it in the order that makes the most sense in terms of layout in your case.
> 
> Loop temps reach equilibrium over time. Only time you'll notice is when you first turn on the system and measure.



Since the radiator cools the water, the water exiting the radiator will always be coolest. You do have a point though, it's most likely not much cooler to make a difference and I usually go with looks, organization of the loop before worrying about one or two degrees.


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## Sadasius (Aug 4, 2009)

Icewind31 said:


> Loop order doesn't matter as long as res is before pump, put it in the order that makes the most sense in terms of layout in your case.
> 
> Loop temps reach equilibrium over time. Only time you'll notice is when you first turn on the system and measure.



YES!! Someone who knows. Res before pump and the rest just use the shortest route possible with less tubing possible. Temps out of a rad are maybe .5 degrees at best and no it makes no difference on the rest of the performance. It will not lower your CPU temps any better then the rest of the water. It's a flow and equilibrium thing...


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## Binge (Aug 4, 2009)

D3M0N-G4M3R said:


> Ok im not too sure, i set up my first watercooling setup the other day and went with my instinct on the order however ive heard this second setup works better.
> 
> The kit i used is:
> 
> ...





erocker said:


> Best order is: Pump-->Rad-->CPU Block-->Res.-->Pump
> 
> If you are adding another rad + gpu into the loop: Pump-->Rad-->Rad-->CPU Block-->GPU Block-->Res.-->Pump
> 
> Temps look good.




it will matter if your put the rad before the cpu for about 20 minutes until your system reaches equalibrium.  I learned that a few months ago, but what does matter is that your cpu block gets a lot of flow so you might see .5C temp differences between the two setups


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## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 5, 2009)

Binge said:


> it will matter if your put the rad before the cpu for about 20 minutes until your system reaches equalibrium.  I learned that a few months ago, but what does matter is that your cpu block gets a lot of flow so you might see .5C temp differences between the two setups



5c less or more?


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## Binge (Aug 5, 2009)

D3M0N-G4M3R said:


> 5c less or more?



.5C meaning 1/2 of 1C less OR more.


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## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh lol haha that might not even be worth faffing with then lol


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## newtekie1 (Aug 5, 2009)

It doesn't really matter, but the pump does put add a little heat to the system.  Maybe enough to raise the temps 1°C, but is that 1°C worth the hassle of re-arranging your setup?

My Ideal loop is:  Res--> Pump --> Big Rad --> CPU --> NB --> Small Rad --> Video Cards --> Res

Usually, I do a 2x120 Radiator hanging off the back of the case, then a smaller 1x120 inside the font of the case where the front fan would go normally.  Obviously, this changes depending on what Radiators I actually use in the loop.


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## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 5, 2009)

yeah i was thinking of that setup, my big rad then cpu then small rad then gfx card.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 5, 2009)

And it is certainly not an equalibrium thing, temps do not "reach and equalibrium" in a water cooling loop.

The overall temperature of the fluid _might_ rise, however, the whole loop will not be the same temperature.  There will be hot and cold spots in the loop.  Generally, hot spots being right after the blocks, and cold spots being right after the radiators.

However, you can only cool the fluid down so far.  Once it reaches ambient temperature, it will not get any cooler.  So, if you have a 2x120 radiator, and it is able to cool the fluid down to room temperature before the fluid exits the radiator, then putting a your 1x120 raditor right next to it in the loop is useless, and makes the 1x120 raditor completely wasted.

However, if you put the 1x120 radiator between the CPU and GPUs, then the heat from the CPU will be removed from the fluid before it gets to the GPUs.  This will give you lower GPU temps.  However, if the 2x120 radiator can't remove all the heat from the GPUs before the fluid gets through the radiator, this could lead to higher CPU temps also.


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## D3M0N-G4M3R (Aug 5, 2009)

ah i understand, well ive got some ideas for the double rad anyways. im gonna have the fans pulling the air through rather than blowing air through, ive heard that works better, the way my case is modded too allows the rad, res/pump to have there own section that is always filled with cold air, hopefully this will keep the rad below room temp by quite a bit.

I have to agree with you on the equilibrium thing, i think that is nonsense too, ofcourse there will be hotspots.


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## Sadasius (Aug 5, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> And it is certainly not an equilibrium thing, temps do not "reach and equilibrium" in a water cooling loop.
> 
> The overall temperature of the fluid _might_ rise, however, the whole loop will not be the same temperature.  There will be hot and cold spots in the loop.  Generally, hot spots being right after the blocks, and cold spots being right after the radiators.
> 
> ...



What happened? You were doing so well until this post. The only time it is not an equilibrium thing is when you have the worst flow in the world. That way there is actually time to have these hot spots in the loop. But in real world builds it is not like that and I can prove it on my system as well as I have water temp probes after the blocks and also after my rads. Now I mentioned a .5 degree difference between the blocks and the exit of the rad but that is from a rather large loop....My loop which has 2 pumps, 2 rads, 3870X2 full face GPU bock, SB block, NB block, MOSFET blocks and my CPU block. If you look in the picture of my build you will see wires near my pumps. These temp probes are in place specifically for the purpose of this topic as I wanted to show some people first hand.


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## Binge (Aug 5, 2009)

I can also prove with relative certainty that it does not matter the loop order unless there is a problem with flow, which I did address in my TERRIBLY WORDED post.  Here are the points in bullet:


Pumps before the most restrictive block may have some effect on the equalibrium
Placing a part before or after the radiator has little bearing on the water temperature
Equalibrium is reached and is usually reached best when there are adiquate parts to suit the need.


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## Sadasius (Aug 5, 2009)

Binge you know your stuff. Yeah I lost an argument with Vapor on XS awhile back about loop order in which I thought the highest pressure from the pump directly to the CPU would be best and he proved me wrong and that it actually did not matter if it was the rad before the CPU or direct from the pump. It's how everyone learns. It was funny too because I stuck to my guns till the end!


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## newtekie1 (Aug 6, 2009)

So the fluid leaving the Radiator is the same temp as the fluid entering the raditor?  Then what is the point of the raditor? Oh...it is supposed to cool the fluid...but according to you it doesn't...

Sorry, it doesn't work that way, the radiator cools the fluid as the fluid passes through it, the exception might be when running extremely low velocity fans or no fans at all, or if the radiator/s are overloaded.   If you get to the point where you are getting an equalibrium, you have overloaded your loop.


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## Sadasius (Aug 6, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> So the fluid leaving the Radiator is the same temp as the fluid entering the raditor?  Then what is the point of the raditor? Oh...it is supposed to cool the fluid...but according to you it doesn't...
> 
> Sorry, it doesn't work that way, the radiator cools the fluid as the fluid passes through it, the exception might be when running extremely low velocity fans or no fans at all...



Don't think you grasped it yet......Water is a great conductor of heat. It picks up very quickly and can also get rid of it quickly in various manners and forms. When in a loop, the water is going relatively quick. It does not have to time to sit inside a rad or a block. It picks up heat and transfers it very quickly. Hence why the lack of a temp difference in a loop. It is only when you have very poor flow or circulation in your loop will you see hot spots and usually by then a hose will blow off or a res will crack. A rad basically cools the whole loop down at the same time because of the way water disperses heat so quickly plus it's flow. You are right it's just the 4th dimensional thinking that is lacking which is time. The fluid might pass through the rad 40 times before it drops a degree when your load goes down.


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## shevanel (Nov 8, 2009)

I want to ask this..

Right now I have rad-res-pump-cpu-rad

my block is probably restrictive, an APOGEE GT, would it be best if I switched the two lines on the pump and cause the radiator to be before the CPU?


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## Binge (Nov 8, 2009)

Shev your CPU isn't very restrictive at all and your loop order is simple and fine.  It would do nothing to change the config of your loop.


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## shevanel (Nov 8, 2009)

Thanks. I might pick up a triple rad though.. i'd like to do better than 50 at idle


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## Binge (Nov 8, 2009)

That would probably be your best bet.


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## shevanel (Nov 8, 2009)

If ambient was 70f do you think it would possibly shave oh I don't know.. 5 degrees off 50c?


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## Binge (Nov 8, 2009)

I think you'd see a difference of 15C taken off 50C idle.  Air coolers don't even have idle temps above 40C with your same overclock.

Since you have an i7 I suggest a Thermochill PA 120.3


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## shevanel (Nov 8, 2009)

Right on. I wasnt sure but I had a feeling my radiator wasnt i7 material. It looks so tiny mounted at the top of the haf932.. It used to look HUGE when it hung from a radbox outside a matx case LMAO.

I've been debating on getting one of darkegos rads.. what do you think about them?


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## WarEagleAU (Nov 8, 2009)

I always forget to go from my pump to my Rad, however my rad is on the outside of my HAF 932 and on the top, and with not angle bits or anything, is a pain in the ass. So I have mine set up like this: RES -> PUMP -> CPU Block (OCZ HydroFlow) -> 3x120MM Radiator -> RES. Currently, according to my ASUS LCD Poster that came with my board, my cpu at full load is runing 36 C and idles around 31 C


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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 8, 2009)

*cough* double rads and double pumps

EDIT: paralell Rads are coool^^


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## Binge (Nov 8, 2009)

Good rads, buy them both and see if you can't get them both for $80.


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## t77snapshot (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm a new watercooler myself and wow this thread has been very helpfiul. I really want to think Binge and newtekie for the great details in configurations. I was kinda surprised to see some of you with the cpu not directly after the rad, wouldn't you want the coolest partion of the loop to go right to the cpu? But I guess having the res and pump before the block wouldn't be that big of a difference in temps either.


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## Steevo (Nov 8, 2009)

I have no res, and run rad-pump-CPU-GPU-rad with a 330 radiator and 1/2 inch tubing my temps are rock sold and only raise a bit through the loss of thermal conductivity. When ATI get off their asses and get a 5870 eyefinity out I am goign to clean my loop.

Ling story short with the amount you will be flowing on that pump the very minimal heat that will be picked up from the pump will amount to nothing as overclocking/heat control goes.


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## Binge (Nov 8, 2009)

t77snapshot said:


> I'm a new watercooler myself and wow this thread has been very helpfiul. I really want to think Binge and newtekie for the great details in configurations. I was kinda surprised to see some of you with the cpu not directly after the rad, wouldn't you want the coolest partion of the loop to go right to the cpu? But I guess having the res and pump before the block wouldn't be that big of a difference in temps either.



The water in your loop circulates several times before actually getting rid of all the heat in a given area of water.  You will always have an ammount of heat in the water when the loop has been cooling an active PC.  That's known as the equalibrium, and how close a radiator can take your temps to a good value of equalibrium is what determines the use of a radiator.  Water is a great conductor of heat and also has a large thermal mass, so unless you're running a terrible loop the loop order won't matter much.


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## t77snapshot (Nov 9, 2009)

Binge said:


> The water in your loop circulates several times before actually getting rid of all the heat in a given area of water.  You will always have an ammount of heat in the water when the loop has been cooling an active PC.  That's known as the equalibrium, and how close a radiator can take your temps to a good value of equalibrium is what determines the use of a radiator. Water is a great conductor of heat and also has a large thermal mass, so unless you're running a terrible loop the loop order won't matter much.



Oh I understand now, thanks Binge. My setup is Pump-->Rad-->CPU Block-->Res.-->Pump. I'm running a Koolance 330 cpu block, Laing D4 pump, Swiftech Res, Tygon tubing and a Thermochill PA120.2 rad. Currently cooling my duel-core


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## Binge (Nov 9, 2009)

Nothing fancy there.  Decent loop to cool what you need to cool.


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## t77snapshot (Nov 9, 2009)

Binge said:


> Nothing fancy there.  Decent loop to cool what you need to cool.



Well that's good to know, glad I'm doing something right considering I am kinda new to the whole liquid cooling world.


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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 9, 2009)

Binge said:


> The water in your loop circulates several times before actually getting rid of all the heat in a given area of water.  You will always have an ammount of heat in the water when the loop has been cooling an active PC.  That's known as the equalibrium, and how close a radiator can take your temps to a good value of equalibrium is what determines the use of a radiator.  Water is a great conductor of heat and also has a large thermal mass, so unless you're running a terrible loop the loop order won't matter much.



does that counts for mega rads also?


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## Binge (Nov 9, 2009)

Velvet Wafer said:


> does that counts for mega rads also?



I don't understand your meaning.  The MO-RA 2 I owned I think might be considered a "Mega Rad" and it kept the temp to reach equilibrium rather low.


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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 9, 2009)

something a little bigger,but flatter (18 fanplaces)


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## Binge (Nov 9, 2009)

That would still reach equilibrium.  It would do it very quickly and at almost room temps.


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## t77snapshot (Nov 10, 2009)

Velvet Wafer said:


> something a little bigger,but flatter (18 fanplaces)



wow!


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## shevanel (Nov 10, 2009)

just put a box fan on that jimmy jank!!


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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 10, 2009)

Binge said:


> That would still reach equilibrium.  It would do it very quickly and at almost room temps.


and what results would that give me? (sry, i somehow created a monster, i dont know really much about)



t77snapshot said:


> wow!


it cools better than it looks, just need more fans



shevanel said:


> just put a box fan on that jimmy jank!!


36x10 euro (magma fans)= 360 euro for fans??? but youre right, i have a need for a box of used ones,with functional and quiet bearings


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## shevanel (Nov 10, 2009)




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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 10, 2009)

shevanel said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/091110/OpenedUp1.jpg



i may have the possibility to get a fan from a ford fiesta, its even plastic, and its blade is..... ...thermaltake-orange it also got a steel frame, i can do nearly everything with it


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## shevanel (Nov 10, 2009)

WTF would happen if you mounted that big ass radiator in front of a window Air conditioner, would condensation become a problem too?


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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 10, 2009)

shevanel said:


> WTF would happen if you mounted that big ass radiator in front of a window Air conditioner, would condensation become a problem too?



in North Germany, you dont need air conditioners. i just have to open my window, if it freezes, i hopefully will get under 0. and my room too


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## shevanel (Nov 10, 2009)

I live in Florida and my roomate is the homeowner. he doesnt set the A/C thermostat lower than 78..

next summer I'm getting a window unit though, i can't stand to sleep with a fan blowing warm air on me.


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## Velvet Wafer (Nov 10, 2009)

thats another game  you have to fight with temperatures regulary,eh?^^


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## shevanel (Nov 10, 2009)

more worried about the temp of myself over the temp of my pc... lol

I'm running an i7 4ghz on WCG atm and its reading 73c, this has been for about 6 hours. 

Temp of my bedroom/pc room is about 75-77F, i could be wrong by a couple points.

When the night is cool (55F) my Pc will load max temp about 62-65c.. but like binge suggested, i could use a better radiator.


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## MartyK (Dec 11, 2012)

Ok after reading some of the forum posts in this thread i find a flaw in some of the theories. i may be wrong but then again i may not.

lets first use an example: you have a car its principally cooled by water, this means you have a radiator, res, pump, and block.

now if you look at the thermals of this loop, the water leaving the block is the going to be the hottest, now the water leaving the radiator is going to be the coolest. there fore there will always be hot spots and cold spots the loop.

with that said this applies to WC computers to.

now lets take in to account fluid dynamics. 

The foundational axioms of fluid dynamics are the conservation laws, specifically, conservation of mass, conservation of linear momentum (also known as Newton's Second Law of Motion), and conservation of energy (also known as First Law of Thermodynamics). These are based on classical mechanics and are modified in quantum mechanics and general relativity. They are expressed using the Reynolds Transport Theorem.

In addition to the above, fluids are assumed to obey the continuum assumption. Fluids are composed of molecules that collide with one another and solid objects. However, the continuum assumption considers fluids to be continuous, rather than discrete. Consequently, properties such as density, pressure, temperature, and velocity are taken to be well-defined at infinitesimally small points, and are assumed to vary continuously from one point to another.

so if fluid dynamics states that everything varies from point to point how can the temperatures reach equilibrium in a WC system??


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## Sadasius (Dec 12, 2012)

It does not matter on loop order as everything settles on an equilibrium. There is literally no temperature difference anywhere in the loop except the hot spots your cooling. Use the shortest and cleanest routes possible.


OMG Necro thread....Answered this a long time ago. *facepalm*


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