# Running coaxial cable through surge protector = ??



## hat (Apr 1, 2011)

I had some trouble with my internet lately (shut off due to non-payment... supposed to automatically come out of the bank account but it didn't for whatever reason). I paid them with my debit card over the phone, and they came out to turn it back on the same day. Some guy came, messed with the box outside, and then left. The modem went from having a blinking receive light to a solid receive light and a blinking send light. The internet still didn't work, but I figured maybe it needed some time to sort itself out. After an hour it didn't so I called again, and they set up an appointment for some guy to come out and fix it this morning. He came in, looked at my setup and said "it's cause you're running it through here" (I had a coaxial coming from the wall into my surge protector, then another coming from the surge protector to the modem). I proceeded to tell him I've never had any issues with it before, and he said it can screw with the signal. He set it up with a wire coming from the wall directly to the modem, and as expected it still didn't work. He said "I'm gonna check something outside", and came back in shortly after. He said it started working before he even did anything out there.

It seems to me that he was trying to cover up his spotty work (especially if he was the same guy who was here in the first place to turn it back on yesterday), but now I'm left wondering: can running coaxial through a surge protector really cause problems?


----------



## ktr (Apr 1, 2011)

"Some guy came, messed with the box outside, and then left." 

He most likely installed a filter.


----------



## toastem2004 (Apr 1, 2011)

it can, but i haven't personaly experienced it yet. It has to due with the frequencies the signals are carried at. I do know that some of my older coax splitters cant be used anymore cause they are only 5mhz-900mhz and cable internet at my location is at 1720mhz, so i had to get new splitters that are good till 2200mhz. Also the only other issue i cant think of is if the protector does any "noise filtering" on the coax line. not sure how that would exactly affect it, but it certainly may in some way, perhaps someone else can expand on that portion.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 1, 2011)

It can, but if it didn't before, it probably won't now.


----------



## timta2 (Apr 1, 2011)

Running coax through the surge protector will cause signal loss (a few DB) and depending on the quality, different types of interference from connected equipment if it's not being filtered correctly. If you already have marginal signal strength these things can really put a damper on signal quality. 

When I used to do service calls (while working for one of Florida's biggest custom A/V companies) I would often run into this. People would be amazed at how much better the signal quality was after removing the coax from the surge protector and in some cases it rectified all of the problems. It was usually the most low budget or old units that had these problems.

In my opinion it's more important to make sure the cable system is properly grounded than surge protected. You would be amazed by the number of systems that aren't grounded by the entry point to the residence.

It's possible that you were just on the edge of adequate signal and his connections outside were poorly made.


----------



## Kreij (Apr 1, 2011)

timta2 said:


> In my opinion it's more important to make sure the cable system is properly grounded than surge protected.



^^ This is sound advice, Hat. 
If you can drain off the surge before it ever gets near the equipment, it is superior to trying to let a surge protector deal with it.

If you are REALLY worried about it, convert the signal to optical (fiber) and then back. 
A surge cannot get through fiber optic cable.
I did this when networking outdoor, mobile MRI units to our main network back when I worked for GE.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 1, 2011)

@hat,

By chance is it Wide Open West (WOW)?


----------



## hat (Apr 1, 2011)

toastem2004 said:


> it can, but i haven't personaly experienced it yet. It has to due with the frequencies the signals are carried at. I do know that some of my older coax splitters cant be used anymore cause they are only 5mhz-900mhz and cable internet at my location is at 1720mhz, so i had to get new splitters that are good till 2200mhz. Also the only other issue i cant think of is if the protector does any "noise filtering" on the coax line. not sure how that would exactly affect it, but it certainly may in some way, perhaps someone else can expand on that portion.



I have no idea what frequency my connection comes in at.



timta2 said:


> Running coax through the surge protector will cause signal loss (a few DB) and depending on the quality, different types of interference from connected equipment if it's not being filtered correctly. If you already have marginal signal strength these things can really put a damper on signal quality.
> 
> When I used to do service calls (while working for one of Florida's biggest custom A/V companies) I would often run into this. People would be amazed at how much better the signal quality was after removing the coax from the surge protector and in some cases it rectified all of the problems. It was usually the most low budget or old units that had these problems.
> 
> ...



I'd hope not. I don't know how to check for good grounding, and I'm not sure what I could do about it if I found the grounding to be poor...



Arctucas said:


> @hat,
> 
> By chance is it Wide Open West (WOW)?



Nope.


----------



## AsRock (Apr 1, 2011)

Sounds like a shady guy trying to get you charged for some thing that was not in house.  Added changed a splitter or lowered the power though or just side the box what ever happened make sure you don't end up paying for it.


----------



## hat (Apr 2, 2011)

I wasn't presented with any additional charges.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Apr 2, 2011)

That doesnt mean it wont show up on your next bill or the one after that. Just keep an eye out for anything suspicious.


----------



## hat (Apr 2, 2011)

Well, I have it coming back through the surge protector. No issues.


----------



## ktr (Apr 2, 2011)

The guy removed the filter, though claimed he didn't do anything. That is why you always watch what these people do. They are shady, because they make commission on these "customer's fault" issues. 

When a cable company disconnect someone, they either cut the cable, or install a filter (w/ tamper proof jacks) to prevent you from tamping their network (because it is shared). All the filter does is block a certain frequency that is required for digital internet signal. The tech installs the filter at the demarc or at the street's cable hub.


----------



## hat (Apr 2, 2011)

Yeah, I'd like to think that using a surge protector wouldn't be the cause for screwing up my networking... that seems pretty far out there.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Apr 2, 2011)

yea its a filter my cable company had one in my box as well when they put in a new drop it screwed everything up so knowing how it worked I simply broke the plastic housing and physically removed it called them up told them they were morons they cut my bill in half for 2 months and i just installed the filter on the old family tv which caused the feedback, problem solved everyone happy. its a filter, i had the same issues getting my cable internet working till i finally did the damn job the jackass was paid to do but failed to do.


----------



## hat (Apr 2, 2011)

Yeah, I'd rather not break into stuff... especially since I live in an apt complex.


----------



## Athlon2K15 (Apr 2, 2011)

@hat do you get your service from TWC?


----------



## overclocking101 (Apr 2, 2011)

the cable guys here are just as retarded. sad really.


----------



## westom (Apr 2, 2011)

hat said:


> Yeah, I'd like to think that using a surge protector wouldn't be the cause for screwing up my networking... that seems pretty far out there.


The cable guy was right on about that protector.  That protector exists only because advertising promotes something that is contrary to well proven science.  And a majority will be victims of the myths and lies that promoted that protector.

  Protection is always about where energy dissipates.  Anyone who recommends a protector must also tell you where the hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.  That protector is how many hundred joules?  How does a surge's hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear?  Does not have to.  Those who make themselves victims of advertising will even become angry rather than admit to ignoring important numbers.

  timta2 has defined what is well understood.  That post say best what probably happened.   Why was the signal lower?  Could also be other reasons.  But if you use a plug-in protector anywhere inside the house, then you are also foolishly letting scammers steal money from your pocket. And sometimes makes electronics easier to damage. 

  A majority are easily manipulated by advertising. Many will even become angry while denying this well understood science.  A protection always means a short (ie 'less than 10 foot'') connection to earth.  Cable needs no protector.  A wire does more than any protector could ever do.  As was well understood over 100 years ago.   Your cable installer would have confirmed a 'less than 10 foot' connection to single point earth ground.  A majority do not understand this science due to contrary information promoted only by advertising - without any numbers.


----------



## hat (Apr 2, 2011)

AthlonX2 said:


> @hat do you get your service from TWC?



Nope.



westom said:


> The cable guy was right on about that protector.  That protector exists only because advertising promotes something that is contrary to well proven science.  And a majority will be victims of the myths and lies that promoted that protector.
> 
> Protection is always about where energy dissipates.  Anyone who recommends a protector must also tell you where the hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.  That protector is how many hundred joules?  How does a surge's hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear?  Does not have to.  Those who make themselves victims of advertising will even become angry rather than admit to ignoring important numbers.
> 
> ...



Eh?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 2, 2011)

westom said:


> The cable guy was right on about that protector.  That protector exists only because advertising promotes something that is contrary to well proven science.  And a majority will be victims of the myths and lies that promoted that protector.
> 
> Protection is always about where energy dissipates.  Anyone who recommends a protector must also tell you where the hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.  That protector is how many hundred joules?  How does a surge's hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear?  Does not have to.  Those who make themselves victims of advertising will even become angry rather than admit to ignoring important numbers.
> 
> ...



It doesn't have to absorb a damn lightening bolt. Just a surge. Are we really going to go through this again Westom?


----------



## westom (Apr 2, 2011)

hat said:


> Eh?



 The cable guy was spot on.  I don't know how well proven science can be explained any easier.  If you bought a surge protector for the cable, then you all but begged to be scammed.  It does nothing useful, will degrade cable signals, and sometimes can make adjacent appliance damage easier.  That (which has been well understood for over 100 years) is unknown to a majority so easily educated only by advertising and hearsay.

 The cable guy was correct about that pathetic protector.  Remove it.  Learn why the protector manufacturer does not even claim protection from any typically destructive surges.


----------



## ktr (Apr 2, 2011)

westom said:


> The cable guy was spot on.  I don't know how well proven science can be explained any easier.  If you bought a surge protector for the cable, then you all but begged to be scammed.  It does nothing useful, will degrade cable signals, and sometimes can make adjacent appliance damage easier.  That (which has been well understood for over 100 years) is unknown to a majority so easily educated only by advertising and hearsay.
> 
> The cable guy was correct about that pathetic protector.  Remove it.  Learn why the protector manufacturer does not even claim protection from any typically destructive surges.



I guess you never lived in an area with a lot of lighting strikes. I know so many people who's modem, cable box, & NIC all fizzled out because of a power surge. It is not a gimmick and it should not interfere with the cable signal because all it is doing is grounding the line. It does not degrade the signal or tamper the frequency.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 3, 2011)

westom said:


> The cable guy was spot on.  I don't know how well proven science can be explained any easier.  If you bought a surge protector for the cable, then you all but begged to be scammed.  It does nothing useful, will degrade cable signals, and sometimes can make adjacent appliance damage easier.  That (which has been well understood for over 100 years) is unknown to a majority so easily educated only by advertising and hearsay.
> 
> The cable guy was correct about that pathetic protector.  Remove it.  Learn why the protector manufacturer does not even claim protection from any typically destructive surges.



You know I already schooled you once on lightening strikes and how they work. Do you want to be embarrassed again?


----------



## westom (Apr 3, 2011)

ktr said:


> I guess you never lived in an area with a lot of lighting strikes. I know so many people who's modem, cable box, & NIC all fizzled out because of a power surge. It is not a gimmick and it should not interfere with the cable signal because all it is doing is grounding the line. It does not degrade the signal or tamper the frequency.


Protection means that all surges - including lightning - cause no damage.  One can foolishly spend $60 per appliance for protectors that don't protect from destructive surges.  Or one can spend about $1 so that all surges (including lightning) do no damage.  What is done everywhere that direct lightning strikes cause no damage? A short connection to single point ground is installed.  As has been the only solution for over 100 years.

  One can connect that cable protector to make surge damage easier and to degrade cable signals (obvious, seen by others here,  and is what cable companies also state).  Or one can inspect a cable's earth ground so that the best surge protection exists - even from direct lightning strikes.

  What always exists to have direct lightning strikes without damage?  A best single point earth ground. So that hundreds of thousands of joules remains outside a building.  So that energy does not go hunting destructively for earth via electronics.

  Protectors adjacent to electronics are not protection.  Do not claim protection. And are routinely defined even in IEEE papers as a reason for appliance damage.  Not only does that protector degrade cable signals.  It also does not claim protection from typically destructive surges.

  Lightning without damage is always about where energy must dissipate.  How does near zero joules in a plug-in protector block or absorb that energy?  It doesn't. It does not even claim to.  Just another reason why cable companies recommend not wasting money on ineffective protectors.


----------



## slyfox2151 (Apr 3, 2011)

westom said:


> Protection means that all surges - including lightning - cause no damage.  One can foolishly spend $60 per appliance for protectors that don't protect from destructive surges.  Or one can spend about $1 so that all surges (including lightning) do no damage.  What is done everywhere that direct lightning strikes cause no damage? A short connection to single point ground is installed.  As has been the only solution for over 100 years.
> 
> One can connect that cable protector to make surge damage easier and to degrade cable signals (obvious, seen by others here,  and is what cable companies also state).  Or one can inspect a cable's earth ground so that the best surge protection exists - even from direct lightning strikes.
> 
> ...





oh god.... not this guy again -.-


----------



## westom (Apr 3, 2011)

slyfox2151 said:


> oh god.... not this guy again


 Reality does not change because advertising said something different.  An informed poster would have said why that cable guy was wrong.  Nobody does because nobody can. Others with knowledge and experience confirmed what the cable guy said.

  That protector does not even claim protection.  It can make electronic damage easier.  And every cable company warns how protectors can even degrade signals.   None of that changes because you dislike it or because advertising so easily manipulated you.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 3, 2011)

westom said:


> Reality does not change because advertising said something different.  An informed poster would have said why that cable guy was wrong.  Nobody does because nobody can. Others with knowledge and experience confirmed what the cable guy said.
> 
> That protector does not even claim protection.  It can make electronic damage easier.  And every cable company warns how protectors can even degrade signals.   None of that changes because you dislike it or because advertising so easily manipulated you.



So Westom what would you recommend?

1. How do you stop lighting damage?
2. How do you stop power surges?

You always say how wrong everyone is but never have a solution. I want to know what YOU do to solve these issues? Build a Ufer system?


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 3, 2011)




----------



## westom (Apr 3, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> 1. How do you stop lighting damage?
> 2. How do you stop power surges?


  Let's be very clear why you are posting.  You already had those answers. And repeatedly denied them.  Post insulting replies which means no helpful or informative facts and numbers.  Even plug-in protector specs say near zero protection.  So you pretend otherwise by ignoring even manufacturer specs and numbers.

  Cable company says what does protection.  A wire that connects their cable to earth does superior protection from all potentially destructive surges - including lightning.  Does more than any properly earthed (effective) protector might do.  And does a tsunami more than any power strip protector might ever do.

  The cable company says that adjacent protector also may be harm signals.  Obviously.

  100 years of well proven science says that protector is ineffective.  I am not recommending.  Virtually every responsible source defines protection.  100 years of well proven science says what you were told repeatedly - and ignore.  Protection means a ground wire connects the cable's ground block short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground.

  For example, the NIST (a US government research agency) says: 





> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground.  The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.


 *Diverting* - not stopping. Cable does not even need a protector.  Cable is connected to earth ground by a wire.  A best protection from all surges including direct lightning strikes.

  That protector that cable companies recommend not using?  I called it ineffective.  The NIST is blunter - calls it "useless".  The NIST, like all professionals, recommends the only thing that does protection.  How many times must I say "single point earth ground" before you finally learn what does all protection?  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly?  Single point earth ground.  How to connect to what does protection?  A low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection.  Protection is only and always about single point earth ground.  How many times have I repeated a well proven and superior solution?  50?  Even the cable company installs it.

  And finally, how many times must I define the difference between a scam and well proven protection.  Only those scammed by advertising use the word "stop".  Nobody stops a surge.  Only the most easily scammed will stop a surge.  For over 100 years, protection has always been about "diverting".  How many times do you read and ignore this NIST fact that exposes popular advertising lies?  The NIST says stopping a surge is not possible.  The NIST says:  





> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.  What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.


  Simply divert it to earth ground as the cable company has already done. 

 Why is reality so hard?  Difficult is to unlearn myths from advertising that sell scam power strip protectors at obscene profits.


----------



## cdawall (Apr 3, 2011)

hey so your "100 years of proven science" what about the thousands of years they thought the world was flat? that was proven science to. surge protectors work to prevent surges from hitting your shit. thats been proven pretty well ever seen a surge protector do its job? normal it ends up smoked sitting on your floor dead as hell. properly grounded cable doesn't do anything i have watched the main box get hit with lightening when i lived in TX and everyone on the street got new modems and cable boxes other than the guys going to get new surge protectors.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 3, 2011)

While it is certainly true that a properly grounded service is essential for diverting transient voltages, I would recommend a multi-layered approach.

In effect; a *quality* whole-house unit connected to the incoming service, and additional *quality* TVSS devices installed at the outlets where sensitive equipment is connected.


----------



## westom (Apr 3, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> While it is certainly true that a properly grounded service is essential for diverting transient voltages, I would recommend a multi-layered approach.


  NIST said what each protection layer is.  Earth ground.  A protector without earthing is *useless*.  No protection layer.  Or did I not make that obvious enough?  Ineffective as in does no protection layer.  And sometimes makes appliance damage easier.

  Defined was a *secondary* protection layer.  Earth ground that the cable company  connected to.  *Primary* protection layer also should be inspected.  A picture of what to inspect:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

  Quality TVSS?  Take a $3 power strip.  Add some ten cent protector parts.  It sells for $7 in a supermarket.  Or put a fancy label on it.  Sell it for $25 or $60 as a *quality* protector.  Similar spec numbers.  Similar circuit.  Costs more money.  So it must be *quality*?  Nonsense.   At what point does the word scam have significance?

  Monster has a long history of identifying scams.  Then selling equivlaent products for even higher profits.  Monster sells an equivalent *quality* protector for $80 or $150.  Costs even more.  Nonsense.  If Monster is also selling it, then you know why.

  "Quality" is determined by the only item that does protection.  Single point earth ground.  Facilities that cannot have damage install *real quality* before footing are even poured.  Because earthing – not any protector - defines quality.  How do munitions dumps suffer direct lightning strikes without damage?  They use *real quality* protection.  Ufer grounds were pioneered in munitions dumps because *real quality* is defined by earthing. By each protection layer.  Not by any protector.  Today, homes in high lighting strike regions (central Florida) use the same solution. But only when quality is defined by science – not by advertising.

  Orange County FL was suffering damage to their 911 system.  A *real quality* solution was required.  Earthing was upgraded.  No power strip protectors were installed:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm 
Layers of protection are only defined by what does protection - earth ground.  Better quality means enhancing what does *quality* - earth ground.

  Fixing defective protection always means upgrading earthing.  Same earthing that the cable company must connect to.  More ground rods increase *quality*.  Also critically important is the connection to earth.  Does your breaker box ground wire go up over the foundation and down to earth ground?  Then you have compromised protection.  Wire too long.  Too many sharp bends.  Ground wire bundled with other wires.  Quality means a ground wire through the foundation and down to earth.  Shorter.  No sharp bends.  Etc.  That (and not any protector) is *real quality*.

  Why does every cable company earth?  Quality.  Quality is always about where energy dissipates.  What does a protector adjacent to a modem do?  That protector has near zero quality.  May make modem damage easier.  And degrade signal strength.

  Every protection layer is never defined by a protector.  Every layer is defined by the only thing that defined quality.  Single point earth ground.  Informed consumers also inspect their 'primary' protection layer.   Best *quality* also costs tens or 100 times less money.

  Well, Norma had a *quality* protector on 27 Dec 2008.  What gets the most naive to recommend those protectors?  Failure.  Norma in "The Power Outage" describes what grossly undersized power strip protectors too often do.  Another problem.  Fire: 





> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire.  Well  the cable man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.


    What Norma saw occurs too often with power strip protectors ... that do not even claim to protect from destructive surges.   May also may harm cable signals.  And what cable companies recommend you do not use.

  *Quality* is never defined by any protector.  *Real quality* is the only thing that does protection.  Single point earth ground.  Each protection layer is only defined by what does protection – earth ground.  Even the NIST says what only does protection. Cable companies strongly recommend no protector on their cable.  Over 100 years of well proven science defines quality.  Advertising and price does not.

Bin that protector as cable companies recommend.  Or gift it to a friend who loves to be scammed.


----------



## cdawall (Apr 3, 2011)

This 100yrs crap is really getting annoying. If you don't like evil surge protectors don't buy one. They do work if you can't believe that oh well.


----------



## Kreij (Apr 3, 2011)

Westom, I agree with you. A correctly grounded electical installation is far superior to a surge protector. Drain (ground) the surge/spike before it ever gets near vital electronics.

However, what do you recommend for people who cannot change or test the grounding in their residence? (for instance, they are renting a 3rd floor apartment/flat).


----------



## westom (Apr 3, 2011)

cdawall said:


> hey so your "100 years of proven science" what about the thousands of years they thought the world was flat?


  At what point do you learn the definition of junk science?  Junk science recommends power strip protector and a flat earth.  Observation (as you have done) also proved spontaneous reproduction.  And Pond’s Age Defying creams.   Junk science is routine when one knows only by observation and speculation.   Science means learning facts and numbers.  You have confused classic junk science with knowledge.

  Is your breaker box earthed?  Most who know only from observation see a ground wire and say yes.  Science says it is only earthed for human safety.  And is not earthed for surge protection.  Most all homes have no sufficiently earthed breaker box.  Yes, it is earth to meet code.  And that earthing is insufficient – does not provide surge protection.

  The reasons why you should have known that are explained above. If like me, then something this so new is not understood until the third reread. Do you want to learn?  Or just argue so as to protect an education from advertising?

  No protector does protection.   But somehow hundreds of joules inside a power strip will absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?  At what point does the word scam have relevance?  How does its 2 centimeter part *stop* what three miles of sky could not?  Again, that burning smell from Norma's power strip is an odor of scam.

  Rather than learn from observation combined with speculation, instead, provide facts.  Then learn why those modems were damaged.  Do you want to learn?  Or do you want to deny?  Your choice.

  Cable companies also recommend not using unearthed protectors. Cable guy was 100% correct.  Others who know only because they feel say he is wrong.  Do you believe those educated by advertising?  Or the cable company who actually learns this stuff?   OP should be asking additional questions.  His protection system is probably still compromised - as previous posts have suggested.



Kreij said:


> However, what do you recommend for people who cannot change or test the grounding in their residence? (for instance, they are renting a 3rd floor apartment/flat).


  Electric companies can installed a 'whole house' protector behind the electric meter.  Or buy a 'whole house' protector from Lowes or Home Depot (less than $50) and have the landlord install it. If necessary, pay for the less than ten foot ground wire and ground rod (to meet post 1990 National Electrical code).  Some ground wire must exist in every building as required by every previous code.  If not, he must earth to met all national and local codes.

   He should be more than happy to have you protect his kitchen appliances, furnance, and other electrical items.  The superior solution means no wiring changes anywhere inside the building.  Otherwise, you have few other options.

  Some AC wires cannot be earthed directly.  That is what a protector does. Earth those other AC wires.  Or it does nothing.

  Protection means a protector as close to earth as possible.  And distant from electronics.  Some kludge an inferior solution.  First locate the wall recepacle closest to the breaker box (and earth ground).  Cutting the power cord on a protector as short as possible (protection means shorter wires).  Plug the protector into that 'closest to ground' receptacle.   Relocate appliances to recpetacles farthest from the breaker box.  A shorter distance to earth increaes protection.  Separation between protector and appliances also increases protection.  Again, this is a kludge solution

  The cable must have no protector.  Cable must connect short and direct to the same earth ground.  Not just for surge protection.  That direct earthing is also required by electrical codes for human safety.

  Does everything connect to a common earth ground?  If a voltage difference between the cable and AC electrical safety ground exists, then that building probably has serious earthing problems that even violate human safety codes.

  Defined is grounding for human safety.  The same grounding and other requirements are required for transistor safety.  Appreciate how grounding for human safety must be upgraded to also have surge protection.  Protection is always about where energy dissipates.  Therefore a protector is located as close to earth as possible.  And distant from electronics. Other wires (cable TV, satellite dish) are best earthed with no protectors.  Better solutoins are often installed with landlord cooperation because he too should want his appliances (refrigerator, furnace, smoke detectors, GFCIs) protected.


----------



## cheesy999 (Apr 3, 2011)

i had one protecting my pc, always wondered why the light flickered on and off, once it finally stopped working we took it apart, we found out most of the parts inside it had melted, but the pc remained fine, not sure what that means so i just bought another surge protector.

i do however see a use, if you need to be within 10 foot of a ground but your appliance is 20 ft away then a surge protector within the 10 ft distance would redirect any surge to the ground then and let clean energy through to the far away device

one point though, since in the uk all plugs have a ground and a fuse does that make surge protectors completely useless?


----------



## Kreij (Apr 3, 2011)

westom said:


> He should be more than happy to have you protect his kitchen appliances, furnance, and other electrical items. The superior solution means no wiring changes anywhere inside the building. *Otherwise, you have few other options*.



This can be the case many times.
Most landlords are usually reasonable if you present them with information that can correct or improve the existing structure if it is relatively inexpensive, but some are just slumlords and not willing to put a dime into an existing old building whose wiring is "grandfathered" in due to it's age. I agree this should not be the case as all buildings should meet current electrical code specifications, but that is not reality.

So answer this for every one reading this thread ...
*"How can I detect if my house/apartment/flat has insufficient grounding that may cause problems."*

You can probably see what I am doing in the last couple of posts, Westom.
Your knowledge on the subject is great, but here at TPU we want solutions to problems, not just that they exist.

Give people solid, no nonsense answers on HOW to protect themselves from electrical problems of any kind, under any conditions.
Explain it so that anyone can understand it.
Don't reference code standards or the like as no one will read them.

BTW, thank you for all the information you have provided.
I have a degree in electronics and I know your posts are factual and correct.
(Yes, I researched what you said many threads ago.  )
If you do what I suggested above, you will become the TPU guru of electrical system troubleshooting (whether you want to be or not.  )
You won't make any money on it, but adoration for you will be shouted from mountaintops throughout the world (or maybe not, but there's always the e-peen thing).


----------



## slyfox2151 (Apr 3, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Give people solid, no nonsense answers on HOW to protect themselves from electrical problems of any kind, under any conditions.
> Explain it so that anyone can understand it.
> Don't reference code standards or the like as no one will read them.
> 
> ...



This +1,

im sorry but most of the time when you post western... i give up reading.... it just sounds like you are ranting on and on and on about the same things.


simple yet complete answers down to about 3 lines work much better then 14 paragraphs.





(i do agree with what you say.... but i get bored reading your words)
(post directed at western not kreij )


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 3, 2011)

westom said:


> Let's be very clear why you are posting.  You already had those answers. And repeatedly denied them.  Post insulting replies which means no helpful or informative facts and numbers.  Even plug-in protector specs say near zero protection.  So you pretend otherwise by ignoring even manufacturer specs and numbers.
> 
> Cable company says what does protection.  A wire that connects their cable to earth does superior protection from all potentially destructive surges - including lightning.  Does more than any properly earthed (effective) protector might do.  And does a tsunami more than any power strip protector might ever do.
> 
> ...



No lets be very clear you have never provided a solution other then saying "a proper ground". In our last conversation you brought up a ufer system when you couldn't give a valid answer. Like any common houses use a ufer system. Now you talk about a "whole house" surge protector (which are great). You do know those things are basically the same thing you plug into a receptacle just high grade? You even said 





> "No protector does protection. But somehow hundreds of joules inside a power strip will absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? At what point does the word scam have relevance? How does its 2 centimeter part *stop* what three miles of sky could not? Again, that burning smell from Norma's power strip is an odor of scam."


 But now you recommend a whole house protector thats claims exactly that. Hypocritical? Make up your mind. Do they work? Or not?

You also claim the cable company line doesn't even need protection. Are you kidding me? So now a massive surge cannot travel through coaxial cable? Amazing! You better learn how a house is wired before you go and talk theory.

Here let me post this jem again.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthre...ng-for-lightning-damage?p=1026195#post1026195

As I said before.....and before.......and before.....NOTHING STOPS LIGHTING IN A RESIDENTIAL HOUSE. If Zeus wants your ass hes going to take it. What a surge protector does is protects you against man made surges.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

westom said:


> NIST said what each protection layer is.  Earth ground.  A protector without earthing is *useless*.



To quote your quote of NIST: 

"For example, the NIST (a US government research agency) says:
Quote:
A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless* if grounding is not done properly." * 

I am not disputing the necessity of proper grounding, but you manage to take out of context words and phrases that serve your agenda.




westom said:


> No protection layer.  Or did I not make that obvious enough?  Ineffective as in does no protection layer.  And sometimes makes appliance damage easier.
> 
> Defined was a *secondary* protection layer.  Earth ground that the cable company  connected to.  *Primary* protection layer also should be inspected.  A picture of what to inspect:
> http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html



Yes, very informative. Except that the utility company is responsible for maintaining their equipment, and may even file charges against consumers if they meddle with the equipment. The issues illustrated are not he responsibility, nor in the pervue, of the homeowner.




westom said:


> Quality TVSS?  Take a $3 power strip.  Add some ten cent protector parts.  It sells for $7 in a supermarket.  Or put a fancy label on it.  Sell it for $25 or $60 as a *quality* protector.  Similar spec numbers.  Similar circuit.  Costs more money.  So it must be *quality*?  Nonsense.   At what point does the word scam have significance?
> 
> Monster has a long history of identifying scams.  Then selling equivlaent products for even higher profits.  Monster sells an equivalent *quality* protector for $80 or $150.  Costs even more.  Nonsense.  If Monster is also selling it, then you know why.
> 
> "Quality" is determined by the only item that does protection.  Single point earth ground.  Facilities that cannot have damage install *real quality* before footing are even poured.  Because earthing – not any protector - defines quality.  How do munitions dumps suffer direct lightning strikes without damage?  They use *real quality* protection.  Ufer grounds were pioneered in munitions dumps because *real quality* is defined by earthing. By each protection layer.  Not by any protector.  Today, homes in high lighting strike regions (central Florida) use the same solution. But only when quality is defined by science – not by advertising.



Do you work for Underwriters Lab? What exactly are your qualifications regarding the determination of what the definition of quality is?




westom said:


> Orange County FL was suffering damage to their 911 system.  A *real quality* solution was required.  Earthing was upgraded.  No power strip protectors were installed:
> http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm



Again with the lightning protection, what about induced transients on the electric service ungrounded phase conductor?




westom said:


> Layers of protection are only defined by what does protection - earth ground.  Better quality means enhancing what does *quality* - earth ground.



Yes, proper grounding and bonding and each point of protection are essential.




westom said:


> Fixing defective protection always means upgrading earthing.  Same earthing that the cable company must connect to.  More ground rods increase *quality*.  Also critically important is the connection to earth.  Does your breaker box ground wire go up over the foundation and down to earth ground?  Then you have compromised protection.  Wire too long.  Too many sharp bends.  Ground wire bundled with other wires.  Quality means a ground wire through the foundation and down to earth.  Shorter.  No sharp bends.  Etc.  That (and not any protector) is *real quality*.



Yes, minimalization of resistance/impedance of transient-to-ground current flow is to be optimized.




westom said:


> Why does every cable company earth?  Quality.  Quality is always about where energy dissipates.  What does a protector adjacent to a modem do?  That protector has near zero quality.  May make modem damage easier.  And degrade signal strength.



Specifically what protector are you referring to? And, while I might agree that some TVSS devices offer little protection, something is better than nothing, although I am sure you will argue that is untrue.




westom said:


> Every protection layer is never defined by a protector.  Every layer is defined by the only thing that defined quality.  Single point earth ground.  Informed consumers also inspect their 'primary' protection layer.   Best *quality* also costs tens or 100 times less money.



Please spare me the hyperbole; properly grounding and bonding of the service, done by qualified personnel (not the average homeowner, rather a certified electrician) can cost several hundreds of dollars. I know because I used to bid those types of jobs when I managed the service department for an electrical contractor.




westom said:


> Well, Norma had a *quality* protector on 27 Dec 2008.  What gets the most naive to recommend those protectors?  Failure.  Norma in "The Power Outage" describes what grossly undersized power strip protectors too often do.  Another problem.  Fire:     What Norma saw occurs too often with power strip protectors ... that do not even claim to protect from destructive surges.   May also may harm cable signals.  And what cable companies recommend you do not use.



Who is Norma, a friend of yours? 




westom said:


> *Quality* is never defined by any protector.  *Real quality* is the only thing that does protection.  Single point earth ground.  Each protection layer is only defined by what does protection – earth ground.  Even the NIST says what only does protection. Cable companies strongly recommend no protector on their cable.  Over 100 years of well proven science defines quality.  Advertising and price does not.



Unless you are generating your own power, and not using telephone or cable, 'single point earth ground' is impossible. The utility companies (electrical, telephone, cable, etc.) all have their systems grounded many places along the path of their conductors. Given that soil resistance may vary greatly between two points within a short distance, effectively, all systems have multiple point grounding. 



westom said:


> Bin that protector as cable companies recommend.  Or gift it to a friend who loves to be scammed.



I am curious as to why you are so vehemently opposed to TVSS devices? And please, do not give me that tired old "It is a scam, and you are an idiot" argument.


----------



## westom (Apr 4, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You also claim the cable company line doesn't even need protection.


  Helpful if you read what was posted rather than recite what advertising has taught you.

  I said the cable does not need a protect*or*.  That difference was repeatedly defined in previous posts.  And still you do not read with intent to learn.  Protect*or* and protect*ion* are two completely different things.  Cable company is required even by code to connect to protection.  Cable needs no protect*or*.  If you understood the electrical reasons as posted, then protect*or* and protect*ion* were obviously two completely different items.

  Well,  having learned this stuff by always learning the underlying science (and by making a few very educational mistakes), direct lightning strikes without damage is routine.

  Cable guy accurately defined a protector as ineffective.  Reasons why should be obvious.  Too close to appliances.  Too far from earth ground.  Too few joules.  Manufacturer does not even claim effective protection.  And it also degrades cable signals.  What is that protector's advantage?  It has an obscene profit margin.

  Those educated by advertising have two choices.  Learn how advertising so deceives to protect an obscene profit margin.  Or kill the messenger.  Then one need not admit to having been so easily scammed by retail propaganda.


----------



## westom (Apr 4, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> As I said before.....and before.......and before.....NOTHING STOPS LIGHTING IN A RESIDENTIAL HOUSE.


   One can learn from manufacturer numbers. A typical lightning strike is 20,000 amps.  So a minimally sized 'whole house' is at least 50,000 amps.  To earth even direct lightning strikes without damage.  Well understood by the few here who have actually done this stuff.  Those who know without first learning will (again) cast doubt without any numbers.  Provided is a new fact.  One is an engineer who has done this even decades ago. Direct lightning strikes without damage. Another is reciting popular and subjective myths.  Subjective - as in no numbers so that myths are easier to believe.

  Protection means surge energy not inside a building.  Home with proper earthing (Ufer grounds cited as one example) of every incoming wire means direct lightning strikes without damage.  Direct lightning strikes and nobody even knew the surge existed.  Protection is always about energy connected short to earth.  Energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. A superior solution that even costs tens or 100 times less money.

  Of course, this completely contradicts what is taught by advertising and on retail store shelves where junk science is alive and well.

  The cable guy was right on correct.  Best cable protection means a cable is earthed at the service enterance.  Remove that unearth power strip protect*or* that does not even claim to do effective protect*ion*.  Boldface used so that you might read what is posted; not what advertising would have you believe to protect obscene profit margins.  Best cable protection is earthing; no protector required.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

Occasionally, lightning strikes may have 300,000+ Amperes at up to 200,000,000 Volts.


----------



## cdawall (Apr 4, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> Occasionally, lightning strikes may have 300,000+ Amperes at up to 200,000,000 Volts.



well that appears to not matter in westoms world according to him lightning only strikes perfectly setup grounded cable lines.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

westom said:


> Protection means surge energy not inside a building.  Home with proper earthing (Ufer grounds cited as one example) of every incoming wire means direct lightning strikes without damage.  Direct lightning strikes and nobody even knew the surge existed.  Protection is always about energy connected short to earth.  Energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. *A superior solution that even costs tens or 100 times less money*.


 What magic solution is this westom. What solution can do this and costs "tens or 100 times less money" Please enlighten me. You have NEVER answered that question.



Arctucas said:


> Occasionally, lightning strikes may have 300,000+ Amperes at up to 200,000,000 Volts.



Yes, yes. Never mind facts. We are talking about westom here and his perfect lighting strikes. And yes a Ufer system will work. Problem is your house would have to be built by the army corps of engineers.


----------



## westom (Apr 4, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> Occasionally, lightning strikes may have 300,000+ Amperes at up to 200,000,000 Volts.


  Good luck observing such events.  A 100,000 amp lightning strike is extremely rare.  Probably never seen in one's lifetime.  And is why a 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.

  A 1970s IEEE paper describes a 100,000 amps surge to AC wires.  40,000 amps harmlessly earthed by the 'primary' protection system.  20,000 amps went hunting for earth ground via the home.  Another 20,000 amps when searching for earth via other paths on the distribution system.  A properly earthed 'whole house' protector rated for 50,000 amps harmlessly earthed that 20,000 amps surge.

Or from AT&T's "Grounding and Bonding for Network Facilities - Design Fundamentals" :





> 6.5.4 Lightning Current
> The majority of cloud to ground lightning strikes produce current in the range of 10,000 to 40,000 amperes with maximum current in the range of 100,000 amperes.


  In venues with more frequent lightning, a 100,000 amp 'whole house' protector is installed so that a protector's life expectancy always exceeds ten years.  Other wires that need no protector - ie cable - connect to earth via a wire.  Cable companies typically earth via a copper wire rated for surges less than 200,000 amps.

  After Arcturcas question (with numbers) are cheapshot posts.  Cheapshots define posters who have no knowledge, no relevant questions, cannot provide numbers or technical facts, and are doing what advertisers hope they will do.  Post nasty attacks on anyone who might be informed. Hope those nasty attacks scare off others who want to learn.

  Protection has always been (even 100 years ago) about where energy dissipates.  Even the rare 100,000 amp surge was made irrelevant by proper earthing, a 'whole house' protector, and protection layers.  Each layer defined by the only item that does protection.  Single point earth ground.  An IEEE paper demonstrates where 40,000 amps dissipate harmlessly.   Informed homeowners therefore inspect their 'primary' protection system as demonstrated by pictures in:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

 Informed homeowners learn how even Orange County FL eliminated surge damage by fixing the only thing that does protection - earth ground.

  Every facility that cannot suffer damage addresses where energy dissipates harmlessly - the earthing system.  Sun Microsystems says same in their "Planning guide for Sun Server room":





> Section 6.4.7  Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground for the surge energy.



  Sun recommends what is done in any building that can never have damage from surges (including direct lightning strikes).  As usual, plug-in protectors are not recommended.  Sun describes effective solutions; does not promote urban myth solutions.

  Protection is always about where energy dissipates. The cable makes a short connection to earth ground without any protectors.  Another reason why we know the cable guy provided correct and useful advise.  And why a protector on cable is not recommended by cable companies.  Even Sun Microsystems confirms what that cable tech recommended.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Apr 4, 2011)

Westom = TL;DR. 

Great Wall of Text for every post. I see this getting locked though.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

westom said:


> Good luck observing such events.  A 100,000 amp lightning strike is extremely rare.  Probably never seen in one's lifetime.  And is why a 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
> 
> A 1970s IEEE paper describes a 100,000 amps surge to AC wires.  40,000 amps harmlessly earthed by the 'primary' protection system.  20,000 amps went hunting for earth ground via the home.  Another 20,000 amps when searching for earth via other paths on the distribution system.  A properly earthed 'whole house' protector rated for 50,000 amps harmlessly earthed that 20,000 amps surge.
> 
> ...



So what do we do westom? You never answered my question. You recommended a whole house protector before. Now they are no good again. What do we do westom?


----------



## cdawall (Apr 4, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So what do we do westom? You never answered my question. You recommended a whole house protector before. Now they are no good again. What do we do westom?



Stand outside in the storm


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

cdawall said:


> Stand outside in the storm



That would make me an electric troll. It would never stop me.


----------



## Kreij (Apr 4, 2011)

Can someone who has real world, working experience in dwelling surge/lightining protection post a guide to let people know exactly how to go about checking their dwelling for potential problems and exactly what they can do to mitigate the hazard?


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

Hmm... cheapshot? Yet everyone who disagrees with you (although I have agreed on some points) is an idiot?

No knowledge? Of course, I am not an engineer, only a lowly electrician.

Please quote the 'nasty attacks' I have made against you.  

I know, and have clearly stated, that a properly grounded service is essential for protection, or did you manage to overlook that?

I am not trying to scare anyone, in fact, I would recommend everyone have, at a minimum, annual checks of their homes electrical service and associated circuitry. On the other hand, I appears to me that you are saying that anyone using a TVSS device, simply because they are using said device, risks property damage even though their service is properly grounded and bonded.

Let me ask you; if one is protected by a properly grounded and bonded service, what harm is there in using TVSS devices? 

I remain curious as to what your agenda is?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> Hmm... cheapshot? Yet everyone who disagrees with you (although I have agreed on some points) is an idiot?
> 
> No knowledge? Of course, I am not an engineer, only a lowly electrician.
> 
> ...



You won't get an answer. Just a wall of text with no definitive point.

But Ill answer you. Nothing at all is wrong with it.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Can someone who has real world, working experience in dwelling surge/lightining protection post a guide to let people know exactly how to go about checking their dwelling for potential problems and exactly what they can do to mitigate the hazard?



No offense, but only qualified personnel may do that type of work.

If someone suspects their service is improperly installed, they should contact a licensed electrician.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You won't get an answer. Just a wall of text with no definitive point.
> 
> But Ill answer you. Nothing at all is wrong with it.



I know.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> No offense, but only qualified personnel may do that type of work.
> 
> If someone suspects their service is improperly installed, they should contact a licensed electrician.



Are you not a licensed electrician sir? Why not help us out. 

If not I understand. Ill see if I can convince my old man to sign up and drop some knowledge on here. But I warn you. Wall of text will be an understatement. But I assure you the answers will be there.

Personally my knowledge lies in the arts. But no one ever argues art and history


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Are you not a licensed electrician sir? Why not help us out.
> 
> If not I understand. Ill see if I can convince my old man to sign up and drop some knowledge on here. But I warn you. Wall of text will be an understatement. But I assure you the answers will be there.
> 
> Personally my knowledge lies in the arts. But no one ever argues art and history



No, I am not licensed. I never wanted to go through the red tape and associated expenditures required to obtain and maintain a license. I prefer to work for a licensed contractor and let him go through all the headaches.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> No, I am not licensed. I never wanted to go through the red tape and associated expenditures required to obtain and maintain a license. I prefer to work for a licensed contractor and let him go through all the headaches.



Ill talk to my old man today and see if he will bite. Hes a hermit but a genius. I inherited nothing from him


----------



## Kreij (Apr 4, 2011)

Arctucas said:


> No offense, but only qualified personnel may do that type of work.
> 
> If someone suspects their service is improperly installed, they should contact a licensed electrician.



I agree, Arc. But how can someone suspect there are problems?
I'm looking for a guide on "What to check for and what to do", even if the "to do" means contacting an electrical contractor.

I happily do my own simple electrical circuit installation at home.
(Like throwing a new breaker in the box and adding a run for lights and switches)
If I detect a problem (like unwarranted GFIC's kicking), I ALWAYS call my electrical guy. 
He's top knotch, upfront and honest. That can be hard to find out here in the sticks. 

Anyway ... care to write a guide with some simple checks people can do?
I'll get it stickied so your e-peen grows.


----------



## westom (Apr 4, 2011)

Kreij said:


> I'm looking for a guide on "What to check for and what to do", even if the "to do" means contacting an electrical contractor.


  I am assuming you are asking about surge protection.  First, all incoming utilities must meet post 1990 National Electrical code.  Not wires inside the house.  Incoming wires.

  That means every incoming utility enters at a common service entrance so that all make a short connection to single point earth ground.   NEC lists the various acceptable earth grounds.  Only one not sufficient and not good for earthing surges is water pipes.

 Again, this is earth ground.  Not safety grounds that route to wall receptacles.  Earth ground and safety ground are different.  Are even defined separately in the code.

  Little can be measured.  Protection is mostly about inspection for low impedance.  For example, the secondary protection layer starts by expanding earth ground.  Earthing is an art.  In many locations, one or two earth ground rods are most than sufficient.  In other locations, a better earth ground (also defined by code) may be required.  Conditions that determine 'quality' of earth ground include soil and other geological characteristics.  Sandy soil is not very conductive. So better earthing is recommended.  In one location, the existence of nearby graphite veins or a limestone outcropping may require a better ground such as Ufer or a loop ground.

  If some utility wire was connected improperly, one utility demonstrates a kludge solution:
http://tinyurl.com/yefm8n9    or
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

   Earthing is the art.  The science is easy.

  Second, each wire that enters a building must somehow connect ‘low impedance’ to that single point ground.  This is simple science.  Every incoming utility must connect a short as possible (at least 10 feet or less).  All ground wires should meet at the earthing electrode.  Wires must have no splices, not inside metallic conduit, no sharp wire bends, and not bundled or attached to other non-grounding wires.  For example, some installers want to make the installation look neat.  Will bundle all wires together.  That is bad for surge protection.

  Telephone already provides a 'whole house' protector for free.  Installed where their wires meet yours (ie inside the NID box).  That protector must also connect short to the earth ground that only you are responsible for providing.

  As defined previously, cable and satellite dish connect to that earth ground directly - no protector required.  That is the best protection available.  Made better by making that connection every foot shorter.

  But the most common source of destructive surges are from wires most exposed on the street - AC electric.  One incoming wire (neutral) connects to earth ground to meet post 1990 code.  And exceeds code to meet those other wire routing rules (no splices, not inside metallic conduit, etc).   

   Two AC wires cannot be earthed directly.  This is not required by code.  Must be installed by a homeowner to exceed post 1990 code requirements.

  Third, those other two AC electric wires get earthed (on the same breaker box ground wire) via a 'whole house' protector.  Installed by anyone with minimal electrical knowledge (who can also install a circuit breaker).  Wires also routed inside the breaker box to meet the same rules (ie short as practicable, no sharp wire bends, etc).    More responsible manufacturers include ABB, Keison, Square D, Siemens, Intermatic, General Electric, and Leviton - to name only a few.  An effective Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector is available in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.  Sold there because any informed homeowner can install this stuff.  And can learn it.

  A minimally sized ‘whole house’ protector starts at 50,000 amps.  If using smaller protectors (ie those that clip into a circuit breaker slot), then two may be required to exceed that amperage requirement.

  Again, the most critical inspection is that ground wire (typically 6 AWG solid copper) from breaker box to single point earth ground.  If that wire goes up over the foundation, then surge protection is compromised.  That wire meets code requirements.  But earthing must exceed code requirements.  It must be separated from other wires.  Much not have those sharp bends over the foundation. And must be as short as possible for low impedance.  Better is a ground wire through the foundation and down to earth ground.  Best solution to surge protection is inspection.  Nothing really can measure what is necessary for better protection.

  Inspection identifies better solutions.  Connections from each wire inside each every incoming cable is simple science.  The art of protection is earthing.  What most people forget about because it is not seen.   An enhanced single point earth ground can never be enhanced enough.  Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

  Basic surge protection for any and every home.  So that even direct lightning strikes do not cause damage.  Based in how it was done even 100 years ago.  And in complete agreement with what the cable guy recommended.

  Apparently I am defining a solution repeatedly.  And you are asking for some other method (due to lack of access). Nothing in your electronics tool box will measure earthing and those other requirements.  You must physically inspect it.  The earth ground should be easy because it is outside.  Only inspection will determine what is sufficient.  If you cannot see it, then options are limited.


----------



## ktr (Apr 4, 2011)




----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

Kreij said:


> I agree, Arc. But how can someone suspect there are problems?
> I'm looking for a guide on "What to check for and what to do", even if the "to do" means contacting an electrical contractor.
> 
> I happily do my own simple electrical circuit installation at home.
> ...



I could write a guide, but I will not because of the liability involved. I will not be responsible for someone being seriously injured or killed due to their lack of knowledge.

When I was a member of the safety committee at my last job, I had to do a presentation about arc flash safety. While researching the material, I came across an incident where an electrician removed a panel cover where an ungrounded phase conductor had come loose from a terminal. When the cover was removed, the conductor shorted against the panel, causing an arc flash. Do you know what copper vapor does to the human body?

OSHA requires that even qualified personnel use the appropriate PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) when servicing equipment. The PPE usually consists (depending on the energy involved) of approved flame retardant clothing, gloves, face shield, and footware.

The only advice I will ever give anyone is; call someone trained and qualified.


----------



## Kreij (Apr 4, 2011)

I completely understand Arctucas.
I had a run-in with 100A 3 phase, arcs and molten aluminum spray. :/
Thankfully, my glasses were made of safety glass (which pitted) and not plastic.
Being flash blinded was kind of weird. lol

Anyway, I was thinking more of ways that the general person could test their in-home outlets for potential problems (not go into the boxes) using off-the-shelf testers and voltmeters/ohmmeters.
Anyone who lives in an apartment/flat would probably not have access to the box anyway.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 4, 2011)

2 bucks.


----------



## Kreij (Apr 4, 2011)

It's rather hard to justify stickying a guide whose total content is 1 picture and 2 words.


----------



## westom (Apr 4, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Anyway, I was thinking more of ways that the general person could test their in-home outlets for potential problems (not go into the boxes) using off-the-shelf testers and voltmeters/ohmmeters.


  See repeated references to 'low impedance'.  That is not resistance.  What do you have to measure impedance?  Can you measure the increased impedance created by a sharp wire bend?  Well, sharp wire bends on the earthing ground wire increase impedance - subvert surge protection.

  There is no alternative to inspection.  There is no alternative to viewing the length of the earth ground wire.  Wire length - not wire thickness - mostly determines impedance.  

  No receptacle is earthed.  The numbers. That safety ground wire might be less than 0.2 ohms resistance to the breaker box.  It is also 120 ohm impedance.  What happens if you try to earth a trivial 100 amp surge via a wall receptacle safety ground?  100 amps times 120 ohms impedance is  something less than 12,000 volts.  That 100 amp surge will find other paths to earth such as via nearby TVs or computers.

  Impedance is why protectors must connect so short to earth.  Impedance is also why protectors separated from appliances increase protection.  Impedance is why you cannot measure near zero impedance from breaker box to earth via high impedance wires on receptacles. 

 Impedance is why that outlet tester reports nothing useful.  Completely disconnect the earth ground.  That outlet tester will still report ground as good.  Just another reason why the outlet tester reports nothing useful.


----------



## Arctucas (Apr 4, 2011)

westom said:


> See repeated references to 'low impedance'.  That is not resistance.  What do you have to measure impedance?  Can you measure the increased impedance created by a sharp wire bend?  Well, sharp wire bends on the earthing ground wire increase impedance - subvert surge protection.
> 
> There is no alternative to inspection.  There is no alternative to viewing the length of the earth ground wire.  Wire length - not wire thickness - mostly determines impedance.
> 
> ...



Where are you getting the 100 Ampere surge, lightning?

Lightning is Direct Current, therefore it is resistance, not impedance.


----------



## Kreij (Apr 4, 2011)

As the picture that Ktr posted suggests, this thread has gone from trying to assist Hat to a discussion of electrical trasmission line properties.
While I find the math very interesting behind complex impedance, phase factors and the like, it's not really going to help anyone.

Let's let this one go.


----------

