# Owners of Seasonic Focus Gold PSU's... coil whine?



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

Today I tested out my new Seasonic Focus Gold 550w only to find that it whines... ...like really bad. High-pitched and constant. I'm curious if any Seasonic owners can chime in and tell me if they've experienced this before I go through the trouble of exchanging it for a new one. I would think it's just a bad unit, but I want to be sure.

On a side note, are there ANY PSU's that are particularly less likely to whine? It is sort of mission critical. I'm trying to record with a USB interface. I just spent two months troubleshooting a bad board AND outlet to get a different noise dealt with. Now my new, reputable PSU whines worse than the whiney one I just replaced (separate machine) and the interference is back in my speakers. Sick and tired of messing with all of these noises! I just want a PSU that I can drop in and know (reasonably) that it's not gonna whine.

Should I even bother jumping around more with PSU's? Or is there a fairly surefire way to isolate the coil? I'd really rather not delve into that stuff, but it'd be nice to know. If I get another PSU and it whines, it's probably going to come to that. I don't want to spend weeks bouncing stuff around the country if there's a good chance I can just fix it. I've already been playing that game basically all summer with other components and other problems.


----------



## Beastie (Jul 31, 2018)

Seasonic p660 in my PC has an annoying but faint coil whine.
 Thankfully with the side panel on the noise is muffled to the point where I can't hear it at all.
 I lined my case with sound deadening foam lining stuff.
 NB my high frequency hearing may not be the best .
 Other than that it is an awesome PSU- would buy again.

 So you could try to improve the sound deadening properties of your case.

 Or you could try adding some hot glue or something to deaden the offending components. Obviously this might invalidate the guarantee.

 Or try RMA. If they send another it might not be any better though :/

 Did you get the dodgy outlet sorted? Any deficiency in the quality of the mains could aggravate coil whine.

 I think Seasonic's strategy is to make PSUs of generally decent quality.

 BeQuiet are a brand of PSU more focused on silence.


----------



## nomdeplume (Jul 31, 2018)

If I understand your plan here it is to void the warranty cracking it open to perform surgery.  Probably not worth it.  Take a deep breath and make a polite but firm call/chat session/email to the retailer.  

Placebo, I recently bought a completely silent Seasonic S12II 520w.  This was my expectation of how it should remain working for a number of years.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

Beastie said:


> Seasonic p660 in my PC has an annoying but faint coil whine.
> Thankfully with the side panel on the noise is muffled to the point where I can't hear it at all.
> I lined my case with sound deadening foam lining stuff.
> NB my high frequency hearing may not be the best .
> ...


I wish it was a simple as just keeping the noise from coming out of the case. The problem is, like with my problem before, it carried up into the interface and gets broadcasted through the speakers. I wouldn't mind so much if it was just faint background noise in the room. But through my speakers, even a faint whine would be quite loud. I don't have them turned up, but I jumped when I plugged my interface in and heard that screeching interference coming through! Hah



> Or you could try adding some hot glue or something to deaden the offending components. Obviously this might invalidate the guarantee.


If I get reallly desperate I'll consider it, but I'd rather not, hah.



> Or try RMA. If they send another it might not be any better though :/


That's why I thought I'd ask other owners, before I waste my time. I really want to like Seasonic, just looking at their track record and the stuff under the hood. I can also say this thing is solid as a brick. I think they do in fact make good PSU's, just worried that maybe they're not gonna be quiet enough for my needs.



> Did you get the dodgy outlet sorted? Any deficiency in the quality of the mains could aggravate coil whine.


Yep, I did. I'm reasonably sure my mains are good at this point, at least to the point that I can reasonably fix right now. Changing the outlet solved the problem. I have one PSU that doesn't whine on this outlet or any other. I changed it into my other machine to replace ANOTHER whiny PSU, though to be fair that was a $20-$30 PSU. Changing the PSU from my quiet EVGA Supernova G3 to the Seasonic brought this whine into the equation. I guess I can always switch back, but then the other one whines so no good. I don't want either of them to whine lol.



> I think Seasonic's strategy is to make PSUs of generally decent quality.
> 
> BeQuiet are a brand of PSU more focused on silence.


Makes sense, but I wonder if bequiet is actually considering coil whine all that much, or if they're simply focusing on quiet fans and high efficiency. Maybe I'm being paranoid.



nomdeplume said:


> If I understand your plan here it is to void the warranty cracking it open to perform surgery.  Probably not worth it.  Take a deep breath and make a polite but firm call/chat session/email to the retailer.


Not exactly. It's a thought in my head for if this starts turning into another journey, but really I would only consider it if success is reasonably guaranteed and I have exhausted all options. I'd much rather take the reasonable route, here.

Fortunately I went Amazon on this one, so I can easily RMA it no fuss. I was wary... tomorrow I'm gonna get going on sending it back. Just not sure where I wanna go from there.



> Placebo, I recently bought a completely silent Seasonic S12II 520w.  This was my expectation of how it should remain working for a number of years.


See, that was my thinking here. Good quality PSU's should generally be quiet. To me this whine is not normal, even if it was a cheap PSU. The whine is so loud I can hear it through the wall from the room on the other side. I think if more people were hearing what I heard, there would be some serious criticism on the quality of these guys.


Okay... ...as I write this, the fan on the PSU started going a little crazy... ...kicking up and down in 10 second cycles for about a minute. And when it ran, it ran LOUD. Starting to think something is just wrong with this one. Can't say I've ever heard a PSU do that... ...or whine like this, really. No real load at the time. Case/CPU fans stayed low. Weird. And now I don't think the fan's running at all. Time to rip it out I think.


----------



## Hood (Jul 31, 2018)

About 4 or 5 years ago, Corsair came out with the RM series, and a big marketing point was the alleged absence of coil whine, due to transformer coils being wound tighter or something.  I don't know how that played out, but the RM units are considered by many to be too expensive for the quality of  components inside, a middle tier PSU trying to cash in on Corsair's excellent reputation.  Maybe ask Corsair George (on this forum) which units are optimized to avoid coil noise these days.  Here's their blog from 2013 - https://www.corsair.com/us/en/blog/coil-whine


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jul 31, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Today I tested out my new Seasonic Focus Gold 550w only to find that it whines... ...like really bad. High-pitched and constant. I'm curious if any Seasonic owners can chime in and tell me if they've experienced this before I go through the trouble of exchanging it for a new one. I would think it's just a bad unit, but I want to be sure.
> 
> On a side note, are there ANY PSU's that are particularly less likely to whine? It is sort of mission critical. I'm trying to record with a USB interface. I just spent two months troubleshooting a bad board AND outlet to get a different noise dealt with. Now my new, reputable PSU whines worse than the whiney one I just replaced (separate machine) and the interference is back in my speakers. Sick and tired of messing with all of these noises! I just want a PSU that I can drop in and know (reasonably) that it's not gonna whine.
> 
> Should I even bother jumping around more with PSU's? Or is there a fairly surefire way to isolate the coil? I'd really rather not delve into that stuff, but it'd be nice to know. If I get another PSU and it whines, it's probably going to come to that. I don't want to spend weeks bouncing stuff around the country if there's a good chance I can just fix it. I've already been playing that game basically all summer with other components and other problems.



Make sure it ain't a GPU or mobo or fan.. Take PSU to another rig on another power source say at a friend's house.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Make sure it ain't a GPU or mobo or fan.. Take PSU to another rig on another power source say at a friend's house.


I've considered that, but I'm reasonably certain it's not. First thing I did was yank the GPU. Doubt its fans, either... with the previous PSU, this rig ran dead quiet. Can't even hear the fans until close to max load. Not to mention the real issue is that the whine is being amplified through my speakers when fed over the USB recording interface. Don't see how a fan could generate that level of interference. It's gotta be right on the power rails and going up through the USB bus. That tells me it's at least being carried through the 5v rail. So seemingly unrelated to the fans, which I don't think are on that rail at all. Can't remember.

Also not detecting whine from the GPU, which gets power through pcie, so it seems the 12v rails are good.

Mobo is just... ...god I hope not because I just changed it. That one was verified noisey, too. I know that for certain. :/ I don't think this one is, though... ...or at least it wasn't until today.

It was like, swap the PSU and suddenly I hear that hallmark high-pitched whine. Immediately upon powering on. Just a stable, constant ringing. Putting my ear up, it's louder the closer I get to the PSU. In fact, it is loudest when I put my ear up against the coil, which I can see just inside the enclosure. Gotta think it's the PSU. But since I'm removing it anyway, I'll be testing it on my secondary rig, too.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jul 31, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> I've considered that, but I'm reasonably certain it's not. First thing I did was yank the GPU. Doubt its fans, either... with the previous PSU, this rig ran dead quiet. Can't even hear the fans until close to max load. Not to mention the real issue is that the whine is being amplified through my speakers when fed over the USB recording interface. Don't see how a fan could generate that level of interference.
> 
> Mobo is just... ...god I hope not because I just changed it. That one was verified noisey, too. I know that for certain. :/ I don't think this one is, though... ...or at least it wasn't until today.
> 
> It was like, swap the PSU and suddenly I hear that hallmark high-pitched whine. Immediately upon powering on. Just a stable, constant ringing. Putting my ear up, it's louder the closer I get to the PSU. In fact, it is loudest when I put my ear up against the coil, which I can see just inside the enclosure. Gotta think it's the PSU. But since I'm removing it anyway, I'll be testing it on my secondary rig, too.



I would isolate it out of your home.

But the fan reving up and down is kind of odd.

Seasonic makes great psus but if it is faulty im sure they wont give you flack replacing it.

I'm using a X1250 XM2 series. From 2014, no problems. I go with them because of consistency, doesn't mean they don't have duds at times.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I would isolate it out of your home.
> 
> But the fan reving up and down is kind of odd.
> 
> ...


Haha, I believe they are! I want this PSU. It's right in my budget/performance sweet spot. From what I can tell it houses a solid design, quality components, and a great build. I expected it to power my modest Ryzen 3 build very well. And I bet it does, even if it is noisy, assuming it isn't defective. But because of this whine I gotta wonder if its just a thing - part of the compromise, yanno? Honestly I'm leaning towards it just being faulty, but I really don't wanna go through the trouble of swapping it and finding out for myself that this model/series is known for whine by other users when I could've taken better odds with a completely different model.

But yeah, the fan thing weirded me out. Could easily be a controller issue but I do wonder what tripped it. That's why I elected to remove it and switch over to my noisy EVGA instead lol

I'm gonna take my rig to work tomorrow, just quickly reconnect the Seasonic, and see what happens. My last noise problem was a faulty outlet after all. That might've just been a symptom. And looking just at the wiring layout in this house doesn't inspire confidence, heh. Hoping its not my mains, but I can't say I'd be surprised. I'm concerned, as I have another PSU with bad whine. It's an EVGA 450BT, though. Which for those that know anything about that PSU, yeah... ...it's dodgy. So it could really go either way.


----------



## MrGenius (Jul 31, 2018)

Hood said:


> About 4 or 5 years ago, Corsair came out with the RM series, and a big marketing point was the alleged absence of coil whine, due to transformer coils being wound tighter or something.  I don't know how that played out, but the RM units are considered by many to be too expensive for the quality of  components inside, a middle tier PSU trying to cash in on Corsair's excellent reputation.  Maybe ask Corsair George (on this forum) which units are optimized to avoid coil noise these days.  Here's their blog from 2013 - https://www.corsair.com/us/en/blog/coil-whine


 Cool article. I was not aware of that aspect of Corsair's RM units. I do know one thing for sure though. My RM1000i is *DEAD SILENT*. I don't believe I've even ran it hard enough for the fan to kick on yet. Or, if I have, I never heard it. Definitely the quietest PSU I've ever owned(most expensive too).

For the record though, I've never owned a PSU that had any kind of coil whine either. So I wouldn't be the guy to ask for a recommendation. I've had everything from the bottom of the line to the top. In wattages from 350 to 1000. Never heard a coil whine out of any of them. Heard a loud ass fan or 2 though. Actually only 1 than I can remember the fan being annoyingly loud. Cheap ass no-name China special "650W"(that I ended up regretting purchasing for more than that reason too, IIRC it lasted less than 2 months , only $35 though ).

PS, I don't know(or care) about the rest of them. But the RM1000i is as good as it gets for a 1000W PSU. "Middle tier" my eye. I do not think so. Check the reviews for it. Then show me one that says it isn't top notch inside and out. Like they're gonna slap a 10 year warranty on their "middle tier" products? AS IF!


----------



## Hood (Jul 31, 2018)

MrGenius said:


> Cool article. I was not aware of that aspect of Corsair's RM units. I do know one thing for sure though. My RM1000i is *DEAD SILENT*. I don't believe I've even ran it hard enough for the fan to kick on yet. Or, if I have, I never heard it. Definitely the quietest PSU I've ever owned(most expensive too).
> 
> For the record though, I've never owned a PSU that had any kind of coil whine either. So I wouldn't be the guy to ask for a recommendation. I've had everything from the bottom of the line to the top. In wattages from 350 to 1000. Never heard a coil whine out of any of them. Heard a loud ass fan or 2 though. Actually only 1 than I can remember the fan being annoyingly loud. Cheap ass no-name China special "650W"(that I ended up regretting purchasing for more than that reason too, IIRC it lasted less than 2 months , only $35 though ).


I've never heard it either, even on the cheaper ones.  Did you notice that the Corsair blog was written by Jonny Gerow, AKA JonnyGuru, the power supply reviewer.  I like reading his PSU reviews, and how those guys go in deep and figure out all the components and who actually makes each PSU.  His site convinced me to buy my Cooler Master V1000, after finding out it's built by Seasonic, on their excellent KM3 platform, rated gold but just misses platinum, and costs 10% less than the same unit with Seasonic branding.


----------



## LFaWolf (Jul 31, 2018)

He was talking about the previous generation RM series. Your RMi is currently gen and has complete different components inside.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

MrGenius said:


> For the record though, I've never owned a PSU that had any kind of coil whine either. So I wouldn't be the guy to ask for a recommendation. I've had everything from the bottom of the line to the top. In wattages from 350 to 1000. Never heard a coil whine out of any of them. Heard a loud ass fan or 2 though. Actually only 1 than I can remember the fan being annoyingly loud. Cheap ass no-name China special "650W"(that I ended up regretting purchasing for more than that reason too, IIRC it lasted less than 2 months , only $35 though ).


Me neither, heh. I've cheaped out on PSU's many times. 10 years ago I pulled an OEM PSU out of what was probably a $200ish no-name PC I found in the trash and ran it for 2 years. I think it might've been less than 300W. Even that thing didn't whine. It DID ultimately go up actual smoke, though...

I've always gotten lucky with budget PSUs. Never had one kill anything, never had one make any noise. That's generally been my luck. Always cutting corners knowing I'm on the precipice of disaster, and yet everything is always fine. Some people do builds. I did rigs  Up until this year I'd only somewhat heard of of GPU whine. I had never actually even heard coil whine before. As far as I knew it wasn't a thing. It's like suddenly, now that I want to start building machines again and I'm actually putting up the time/money to do things right with quality stuff, I just have no luck. Bad motherboards (one bad USB and one completely DOA,) ram damaged by inexplicable dust, broken system backup when attempting to recover from system damage caused by said ram malfunctioning, the outlet I plug my computer into is bad and throws me through a loop trying to isolate the noise for over a month... ...it goes on and on.

Maybe my luck is just catching up with me, man. Sometimes I just don't know. I used to get away with everything and never worried. Now, suddenly I care and I catch on every silly little thing you can't account for. It's like, does your machine work for you, or do you work for it?

I was looking at the new 550w Corsair RMx. $90 is probably a bit much for what it is, but from what I can tell quality does go into it. At a glance it looks promising. I'll have to do some reading up on it. But if it really is dead quiet, I might just say it's worth the extra cost for me. That article was definitely interesting. I can understand how the measures described there might really make a difference. Assuming they're still featuring stuff like that now.

I'm also tempted to try a different Seasonic model. Maybe go up a rung or two. Take a chance on a different design with different components.


----------



## londiste (Jul 31, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> I've considered that, but I'm reasonably certain it's not. First thing I did was yank the GPU. Doubt its fans, either... with the previous PSU, this rig ran dead quiet. Can't even hear the fans until close to max load. Not to mention the real issue is that the whine is being amplified through my speakers when fed over the USB recording interface. Don't see how a fan could generate that level of interference. It's gotta be right on the power rails and going up through the USB bus. That tells me it's at least being carried through the 5v rail. So seemingly unrelated to the fans, which I don't think are on that rail at all. Can't remember.
> 
> Also not detecting whine from the GPU, which gets power through pcie, so it seems the 12v rails are good.
> 
> ...


Seasonic's warranty tends to be pretty good and I have had one instance where they replaced the PSU due to really constant and noticeable coil whine.

If  the whine is amplified through the speakers, it should not be the coil whine. Or at least not just the coil whine.


----------



## _UV_ (Jul 31, 2018)

Hood said:


> About 4 or 5 years ago, Corsair came out with the RM series, and a big marketing point was the alleged absence of coil whine


I have one of those - RM750x, that is first PSU i ever met having coil whine, and that is not something "little annoying", it's terribly LOUD, and i can live with loud equipment, beleive 5000VA UPS can't be silent, but those RM PSUs is something... Previous generatios TX (bronze) and HX (silver) models quiet even under full utilization. All those Corsairs are Seasonic OEM. I also have some Chieftec and Thermaltake PSUs made by CWT and couple of CoolerMaster, ranging from 620 to 1500 W, the only sound they make - fan noise.


----------



## londiste (Jul 31, 2018)

_UV_ said:


> I have one of those - RM750x, that is first PSU i ever met having coil whine, and that is not something "little annoying", it's terribly LOUD, and i can live with loud equipment, beleive 5000VA UPS can't be silent, but those RM PSUs is something... Previous generatios TX (bronze) and HX (silver) models quiet even under full utilization. All those Corsairs are Seasonic OEM.


RM750x is CWT.
Corsair uses a mix of OEMs, sometimes even in the same product line as is case with RM.


----------



## Komshija (Jul 31, 2018)

My relative had some Corsair unit, forgot which one, since it was a few years ago. It also produced quite noticeable coil whine. Nevertheless, it didn't damage any of his components, but was quite unpleasant to hear.

I also had barely audible coil whine on my previous Lepa MaxBron B700M from the day one, but its amplitude increased from just barely audible at some 10-20 cm from the case to audible at 50 cm from the case. There were no popped/leaking capacitors.
My new PSU FSP Hydro G 650W does not have such issues and so far as I heard, no FSP Hydro G unit has coil whine. It's also price friendly. The only "issue" is that under minimum load (less than 30W) its +3,3V regulation is at 3,42V,  but that's within the specs and expected behavior - I contacted FSP and received detailed info about this series of PSU. So if you are looking for a good PSU, look no further from FSP Hydro G.

Some people apparently decreased coil whine by covering certain parts (ceramic rings with copper wires?) with hot glue. However, I have never done it and am not quite sure what effect it would have on the power delivery and more importantly cooling. If this PSU is new, try to RMA it.


----------



## _UV_ (Jul 31, 2018)

londiste said:


> RM750x is CWT.
> Corsair uses a mix of OEMs, sometimes even in the same product line as is case with RM.


Bad times for Corsair, quality after reviews drops significantly , i even seen some tear downs of AX line with "noname" caps... Previous 750 TX and 850 HX made better, no coil whine at all.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 31, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I would isolate it out of your home.
> 
> But the fan reving up and down is kind of odd.
> 
> ...



And on top of that he should get in touch with them about it, i have found their help very helpful and pretty much trouble free in the past.


----------



## silentbogo (Jul 31, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Today I tested out my new Seasonic Focus Gold 550w only to find that it whines... ...like really bad. High-pitched and constant. I'm curious if any Seasonic owners can chime in and tell me if they've experienced this before I go through the trouble of exchanging it for a new one. I would think it's just a bad unit, but I want to be sure.


+1... or actually +5.
I have a 450W 80+ GOLD unit in my PC and it has a nasty coil whine during any I/O-heavy activity (copying files from USB, actively using WiFi or transferring photos over BT).
Also have a 500W unit in my cousin's PC and it's mostly silent during any type of usage, but has a faint whine on standby.
3 more SSR-360GP units were purchased for one of my customers and all three have a more noticeable standby coil whine, even though all 3 PCs are connected to a decent UPS with mains noise suppression and  built-in voltage stabilization.

I haven't exchanged any of those units, cause mine is not covered by warranty, cousin's PSU is at acceptable noise level, and the remaining ones are used in the environment where it's pretty much inaudible on the level of background noise. I contacted Seasonic reps, though, and the guy at least attempted to get to the core of the issue and mitigate some of the noise problems.... Which is really cool, cause in Ukraine an official support rep is usually some douchebag who will constantly claim that their product is superior and you are a dumb fuck with no knowledge about hardware internals(Kingston is probably the worst).


----------



## jsfitz54 (Jul 31, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> I have a 450W 80+ GOLD unit in my PC and it has a nasty coil whine during any I/O-heavy activity (copying files from USB, actively using WiFi or transferring photos over BT).



I would think that this is due to having too low a wattage PSU.



robot zombie said:


> Today I tested out my new Seasonic Focus Gold 550w only to find that it whines...





robot zombie said:


> That tells me it's at least being carried through the 5v rail.



Is this 550w PSU borderline in terms of power?  Would a 750w stop the whine? (Larger 5v rail)


----------



## silentbogo (Jul 31, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> I would think that this is due to having too low a wattage PSU.


By which standards? It's not 90's anymore. 
My PC tops out at only 150W at the wall during gaming (slight GPU tweaking helped a bit). The ones at the office don't even have a discrete GPU, so it's more like 70-80W worst case scenario for something like an updated "typical" rig w/ i5-8400 onboard(actually less, since the only time it's fully loaded is when it's compiling stuff). 
Nowadays a decent 500W PSU can easily handle an i7 paired w/ GTX1080 without breaking a sweat.

Coil whine(especially in standby) is not related to PSU wattage or relative load (in SB there is almost no load).


----------



## jsfitz54 (Jul 31, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> By which standards? It's not 90's anymore.
> My PC tops out at only 150W at the wall during gaming (slight GPU tweaking helped a bit). The ones at the office don't even have a discrete GPU, so it's more like 70-80W worst case scenario for something like an updated "typical" rig w/ i5-8400 onboard(actually less, since the only time it's fully loaded is when it's compiling stuff).
> Nowadays a decent 500W PSU can easily handle an i7 paired w/ GTX1080 without breaking a sweat.
> 
> Coil whine(especially in standby) is not related to PSU wattage or relative load (in SB there is almost no load).



My thought is that the 5v rail is being more heavily taxed.  The only way to get more headroom (a larger 5v rail) is to get a larger 750w PSU because that's the only way it's done.  Edit: Even if he only pulls 200w from the wall.

***Edit: Special use case by a musician having sound issues.***


----------



## silentbogo (Jul 31, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> My thought is that the 5v rail is being more heavily taxed. The only way to get more headroom (a larger 5v rail) is to get a larger 750w PSU because that's the only way it's done.


There's almost nothing taxing on a 5V rail, and there is nothing taxing on a 5VSB rail either (I'm talking "in general"). The only components powered by that rail are: PCH(partially), USB ports, LAN, Audio codec, HDDs/SSDs. In this list the HDD is probably the most power-hungry due to motors, though a 3.5" HDD still powers it from 12V rail, while the old laptop HDD only takes a maximum of 1A of current (500-700mA max for modern laptop drives).
So, unless we are talking about exceeding a 80W rated limit(SSR-360GP) on a 5V rail with a RAID array of a dozen laptop drives on an x58 motherboard with another dozen smartphones hanging on USB ports, it's definitely not the case here.

For the OP it's even less likely, since his PSU can handle up to 100W on 5V rail.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Jul 31, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> There's almost nothing taxing on a 5V rail, and there is nothing taxing on a 5VSB rail either (I'm talking "in general"). The only components powered by that rail are: PCH(partially), USB ports, LAN, Audio codec, HDDs/SSDs. In this list the HDD is probably the most power-hungry due to motors, though a 3.5" HDD still powers it from 12V rail, while the old laptop HDD only takes a maximum of 1A of current (500-700mA max for modern laptop drives).
> So, unless we are talking about exceeding a 80W rated limit(SSR-360GP) on a 5V rail with a RAID array of a dozen laptop drives on an x58 motherboard with another dozen smartphones hanging on USB ports, it's definitely not the case here.
> 
> For the OP it's even less likely, since his PSU can handle up to 100W on 5V rail.



So the coil whine (harmonics) would not change due to size of PSU?  A smaller unit working harder VS a larger unit that"s not taxed as hard and has more reserve?

Edit: I'm asking, taking the "he got a defective unit" out of the equation.


----------



## silentbogo (Jul 31, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> So the coil whine (harmonics) would not change due to size of PSU? A smaller unit working harder VS a larger unit that"s not taxed as hard and has more reserve?


Given that a typical PC won't load it over 20W combined - definitely. If you are more interested in a total load - same thing. The OP's PC is barely using 25% of the potential of his 550W PSU at full load... what kind of "working harder" are we talking about, I just can't get whattahell do you mean by it on these types of active load? It's a friggin' R3 1200 with a GTX 1050(non-Ti)...


----------



## jsfitz54 (Jul 31, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> Given that a typical PC won't load it over 20W combined - definitely. If you are more interested in a total load - same thing. The OP's PC is barely using 25% of the potential of his 550W PSU at full load... what kind of "working harder" are we talking about, I just can't get whattahell do you mean by it on these types of active load? It's a friggin' R3 1200 with a GTX 1050(non-Ti)...



You are doing a math equation.  The question is how it (size) relates to "harmonics", because the OP has had a bad time recording music, his main intended goal.

*EDIT:*
Here is the picture (distinction) I'm trying to draw:  Is it valid in terms of "harmonics"?

Low watt = low price = low quality parts : shitty sound.

Higher watt = higher price = higher quality parts : better sound


----------



## dirtyferret (Jul 31, 2018)

I've owned several seasonics from different brands and currently use a seasonic focus plus in my gaming PC.  I had coil whine issues in two of the seasonic units straight out of the box, both got returned asap.  Never had an issue with CWT or Delta built units but the latter is hard to find anymore outside of mass produced pcs.  The corsair cwt units are great like the txt-m series.  They have a good price, good performance, and great customer service from corsair.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

Interesting input so far guys, thanks. I've been doing some reading myself but sometimes it helps to actually have the conversations.

Just a few things I wanna note.

I don't think it's necessarily straining. 550w would usually be sufficient headroom for this build. The voltage readouts for all rails are near-perfect, too. If there's any strain at all, I'm not seeing signs of it, even doing tests under heavy load. From the moment I boot up it's there and it stays that way. The sound doesn't even change if I try to max both CPU and GPU. The only reason I assume 5v rail is suspect is because it is carrying over to the USB bus and it doesn't seem to care if that interface and my mouse/KB are the only things on it. Maybe it's just carrying through everywhere. But it was just a passing observation to begin with.

Experiences recently are telling me that the USB bus is just generally finicky when it comes to input power. A badly shielded outlet gave me some real trouble there recently. Somebody mentioned that if it's carrying through to the speakers it's something else, but my experience says that all it takes is to have bad power going in and USB audio can pick up all sorts of nastyness, especially USB-powered stuff, such as my interface. I'd believe that nothing is wrong with anything else in this rig. Especially since I can clearly hear the whine both coming straight from the PSU and being directly mimicked through the speakers, ONLY when they're plugged into a bus-powered device.

I also have a USB/optical DAC that is self powered feeding these same speakers. Doesn't pick up the whine with either input... ...and it's only got unbalanced outs. So that right there narrows it down. As soon as I plug in that powered interface (or if past experience still stands, ANY usb powered interface - I've tried several - all with the same susceptibility to power noise,) I'm going to hear the noise passing right through balanced outs to the speakers. Last time, dealing with the bad outlet, I tried swapping every component in this thing with parts from my B-rig, after verifying that the B-rig was in fact noise-free. Different case, no case, different GPU, different PSU, no unneeded stuff, different mobo, etc. I mean, I tried everything. Ferrites, isolators, ground lifts, all manner of cables, hubs that use their own wall power... didn't matter because that outlet was just bad and bad power going into the mobo was enough. Ultimately I did have a bad mobo too, but I swapped that and that problem fully went away. The current components in this rig did not have this issue. It was when I put in the Seasonic that I started having problems. Doesn't mean there aren't other susceptibilities in say, the mobo - perhaps a better mobo wouldn't pick this up, but at this point the source is clear.

I can see the headroom argument. A higher price, higher wattage unit may very well be what it comes down to, or at least it takes another potential factor out of the equation. But my concern there is that even people with units like that sometimes experience whine. Some are even sort of known for it. Seems like more a matter of how the coil is placed and wrapped. A whiny coil isn't necessarily bad, and for most people a little whine isn't as much of an issue as consistency and reliability, which aren't necessarily affected. I'm willing to believe that almost all PSU's exhibit whine, and it's just a matter of whether you can hear it or not. Obviously construction matters there, though.

But still, I think I'd be more willing to try a higher wattage, higher-quality unit over a cheaper one at this point. As mentioned, sound is a major concern and I am willing to pay more than I otherwise would to take care of it, even if I'm technically "over-spec." I know all too well as someone who's worked on amplifiers that good sound starts with good power. I'm just not sure that simply picking a good PSU with known good design/components will be enough. It's one of those weird, specific things where it's hard to know what to look for to know you're getting what you want. Hell, half of the time it's just luck, though looking at some of the comments here I might be ruling out Seasonic. Maybe Corsair, too. Depends on what I can turn up about the ones I'm looking at. I dunno. Doesn't cost me anything but time to give a replacement Seasonic a shot, I suppose.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Jul 31, 2018)

What do you mean by, "_like with my problem *before*_"? Is that with more than one PSU?





robot zombie said:


> The problem is, like with my problem before, it carried up into the interface and gets broadcasted through the speakers.


*That's not coil whine then! That's interference.*

Coil whine is caused by actual physical vibrations in the windings of the inductor (coil) - like plucking a guitar string or the movement of your own vocal cords. Only instead of fingers plucking or air moving past causing the vibrations, it is expanding and contracting magnetic fields.

If you can hear this whine coming through your speakers, that is interference from something else, either generated from within the electronics of the PSU, or being introduced by some other nearby component or device that is faulty. It can also be due to electrical "noise" that is not being properly suppressed - perhaps through a faulty ground. It can even come from something totally unrelated to your computer, like a nearby microwave oven or your refrigerator.

Test the PSU outside your computer on a bread board. Can you hear the whine then? And note if you have experienced this problem with 2 different PSUs, it is not likely a PSU problem.

Check your wall outlet wiring using an AC Outlet Tester to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded.

And when it comes to audio "noise", this is important - make sure your computer and your speaker amplifiers (built in to the subwoofer of most computer speakers) are at the "same ground potential". You do this simply by ensuring both the computer and the speakers are plugged into the same wall outlet.

Remember, even two outlets in the same room on the same facility circuit will have different ground potentials. This is because the distance back to the circuit panel and Earth ground will be different. Any "difference in potentials" can cause (or fail to suppress) noise.

Alternatively, you can run a tiny (AWG22 is fine) hookup wire between bare metal of your PC case to bare metal of your subwoofer to ensure the grounds are at the same potential.


----------



## Deleted member 178884 (Jul 31, 2018)

No problems with my seasonic snow silent 750w - my fav psu and best purchase


----------



## jsfitz54 (Jul 31, 2018)

USA: TODAY ONLY:
https://www.newegg.com/Special/Shel...omepage_SS-_-P3_17-151-201-_-07312018&Index=3


----------



## AsRock (Jul 31, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Interesting input so far guys, thanks. I've been doing some reading myself but sometimes it helps to actually have the conversations.
> 
> Just a few things I wanna note.
> 
> ...




When i am picking out a PSU which is normally a Seasonic, i check JonnyGuru \ TPU reviews and know my gaming power usage,  Like you can say a 750w PSU is why to much for my now 390 (used to be a 290 ),  one thing that i considered important was were the PSU was the most efficient.

So at the time having a power usage from about 73w idle and a max of 430w ( benchmarks ) and typical gaming was around 260w-360w is one of the reasons i got mine.

Idle efficiency is none matter for this system as when it's on it's gaming.

As for coil whine i have never had it with several Seasonic PSUs.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> What do you mean by, "_like with my problem *before*_"? Is that with more than one PSU?
> *That's not coil whine then! That's interference.*
> 
> Coil whine is caused by actual physical vibrations in the windings of the inductor (coil) - like plucking a guitar string or the movement of your own vocal cords. Only instead of fingers plucking or air moving past causing the vibrations, it is expanding and contracting magnetic fields.
> ...


It's not always coming through the speakers. I can only hear it when I plug them into a usb powered interface. It's not like it's there when they're simply turned on. Not to mention I have USB dac that doesn't care about the noise - I can't hear it through the speakers then, though it doesn't take power via USB, only pushes data through.

It sounds pretty much exactly like this GPU whine, only the pitch is higher. 








And yes, I have another PSU with whine, from another machine. Sounds even closer in pitch to the example above, but it's load dependent - sometimes I can't hear it all, but under load the sound comes in uneven pulses. Sounds pretty much exactly like if you took the sound in the video and chopped it up.

In both cases I can hear it best when listening through the back of the PSU. Whether its actually the coil or not doesn't really matter to me. Bottom line is that the PSU is making noise that seems to be causing interference elsewhere.

The problem before, incidentally, WAS mains related. It was a bad outlet, as far as I can tell. After changing the outlet, that noise went away. And it didn't sound like either of these PSU's do now, nor could I audibly hear it coming out of my machine. I have since gone and checked ground potential at every point I could. Bout as close to 0v as it can realistically be. Today, I took the rig with the PSU and ran it at work. Same exact noise. On the way home I took it to a friends house and heard the same thing. I have two machines here, so I quickly plugged the offending PSU in via the front panel and heard the same noise, much more obviously from the PSU when outside of a case. Also carries up through the USB interface to my speakers, just like it does through this build. And just like it was with this build, when I had a different PSU, the same USB interface sent no noise through the same speakers.



> Test the PSU outside your computer on a bread board. Can you hear the whine then? And note if you have experienced this problem with 2 different PSUs, it is not likely a PSU problem.


This I haven't tried, but I will. Im thinking I will still hear it, though. And yes, I do have two PSU's that make coil whine noises. But then, I also have one that doesn't and didn't give me any noise issues with what I'm trying to do. Can't help but think it has to be the PSU for that reason. It's entirely possible to get unlucky like that with two PSU's. The Seasonic is a little surprising, but the other one that whines is a bottom-end EVGA 450-BT, which everyone knows is crap anyway. I bet I could buy 3 more and they'd all whine eventually, if not immediately.



> Check your wall outlet wiring using an AC Outlet Tester to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded.


I'll do ya one better. I replaced the outlet with a better one myself and tested both the wiring and the outlet directly. I am sure it is wired properly 



> And when it comes to audio "noise", this is important - make sure your computer and your speaker amplifiers (built in to the subwoofer of most computer speakers) are at the "same ground potential". You do this simply by ensuring both the computer and the speakers are plugged into the same wall outlet.


They always have been. I have also taken the liberty of trying the opposite and spreading things across outlets as well as trying many different outlets. Always the same result. Plug in the recording interface with the speakers plugged into it and the noise carries through.


----------



## nomdeplume (Jul 31, 2018)

Are you by any chance using a (potentially) faulty power strip to plug the computer and related items in?  Say the same one you were using during months of compounding issues.


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

nomdeplume said:


> Are you by any chance using a (potentially) faulty power strip to plug the computer and related items in?  Say the same one you were using during months of compounding issues.


Nope, never mentioned it, but in addition to trying different cords, I also tried different strips, from cheap ones to more expensive heavy duty ones.

But then, strip, tap or neither, it never goes away.


----------



## nomdeplume (Jul 31, 2018)

I'm just going to keep working my way out from your circuit breaker until your guitar stylings are captured in stunningly the clearest high resolution quality your DAC supports.  

Breaking with that trend, have you been picking up local radio on your fillings or anything else you'd normally be lax to share with us?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jul 31, 2018)

Take your parts to a friend's house test them individually then put the machine back together try them even in your friends rig. If that power supply still wines with your friends parts go ahead and contact seasonic for another


----------



## robot zombie (Jul 31, 2018)

nomdeplume said:


> I'm just going to keep working my way out from your circuit breaker until your guitar stylings are captured in stunningly the clearest high resolution quality your DAC supports.


One day I'll find a way to just beam it into the hard drive. Nah, but I thought about maybe swapping the breaker. I haven't because the noise exists outside of this place.

The funny thing is, the recorded tracks don't have the noise. Technically I could get stuff done. But man is it distracting to hear that constant whining. EQing is almost impossible. Trying to sweep for problem areas in the traditional way is taxing. I have to constantly try to tune out that noise to focus on what I'm actually listening to, which is specific resonances in specific ranges. I have a pretty good ear for different frequencies at this point - I can sort of just tell with certain things without even sweeping, but I'm not that good lol. Very hard to analyze and diagnose issues in the highs, which is where a lot of problems are with distorted guitars. Until I can just look at a spectrum analyzer and just know exactly how what I'm seeing sounds like, it's not happening lol. Maybe in another 50 years I can do that 



> Breaking with that trend, have you been picking up local radio on your fillings or anything else you'd normally be lax to share with us?


Haha, no. Nothing like that. I don't even have any metal fillings.

I mean... there's always those voices I hear but I don't think that's related to the current issue. But it could be that thing the aliens put in my head last year, I guess. I asked them if it was gonna affect this and they said no. But maybe they lied. They seemed pretty nice, though. Didn't think to mention it. Good thing you asked.

EDIT: got my RMA going. I'll drop it off tomorrow. I think I want to give Seasonic another chance. I really don't believe what I'm hearing could possibly be typical. Just my usual bad luck maybe. Debating for a little longer on whether to grab that 750w Focus Gold on newegg, or maybe wait till tomorrow for my amazon credit to pass and go up to the Prime Gold or Focus Platinum at 650w. Based on responses here it's a little bit of a gamble, but I stand to lose nothing but a little time, even if the replacement is bad. I'll just say that amazon prime has been super worth it for me these past couple of months  I've learned their RMA system is amazingly good if you stay with them, too. Go for the amazon credit and you get it basically the moment your package scans out. But then that deal pops up on newegg and I find myself torn.

The one thing I won't do is grab another of this model, heh. Hopefully rule out some other possibilities that way. Burn me twice on two separate models and I'll be moving on. All I can really say there. I'm arriving at the belief that basically any PSU can exhibit whine, just based on the mixed responses here. Some are probably more likely to than others, but that's about it. It's one of those things that's just got too many variables to know.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Aug 1, 2018)

@robot zombie :  Are you running anything like this, came across this today by accident:

https://www.amazon.com/2-Channel-Co...2GO6/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1533058904&sr=8-5


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 1, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> @robot zombie :  Are you running anything like this, came across this today by accident:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/2-Channel-Co...2GO6/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1533058904&sr=8-5


No, nothing like that. What I have doesn't simply feed to the onboard like that. It's a fully-dedicated digital audio i/o device on its own. I mean, it has phantom power but I don't own any mics so I don't use it.

I'm actually running this. The on-board audio actually sounds okay, but the problem there is latency. I need low latency monitoring... ...the ability to take the guitar going in, run it through VST's, and then hear it played back through the full, processed mix at as close to real time as possible. Can't do that without one of these interfaces. Has to have the data i/o to work with fast digital processing and monitoring. It does heavy lifting the product you linked can't do. With integrated audio, I play a chord and hear it a full second later, which is at least 900ms too late lol, even if I can get it to cooperate with ASIO. They cap out and start skipping in and out before they become viably responsive. Otherwise I would just plug my guitar into a DI box and feed it to the onboard audio's line-in.

I've tried others like it, too. They all have the same susceptibility to power noise of any kind. Been down that rabbit hole, hah. Short of eliminating the source, there is no winning and no viable alternative. Stuck with em unfortunately. Nothing I can do on that end can fix this.


----------



## silentbogo (Aug 1, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> I've tried others like it, too. They all have the same susceptibility to power noise of any kind. Been down that rabbit hole, hah. Short of eliminating the source, there is no winning and no viable alternative. Stuck with em unfortunately. Nothing I can do on that end can fix this.


I have an idea that is cheaper to test than a new power supply. First, you can try a *USB  Y-splitter* and instead of powering it up from USB port try something like a powerbank or a decent 5V 1+A power adapter (preferably an old-school transformer-based, and not the new switch-mode charger).
It won't help with your PSU issues, but it may help with the output noise on your audio interface.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> I have an idea that is cheaper to test than a new power supply. First, you can try a *USB  Y-splitter* and instead of powering it up from USB port try something like a powerbank or a decent 5V 1+A power adapter (preferably an old-school transformer-based, and not the new switch-mode charger).
> It won't help with your PSU issues, but it may help with the output noise on your audio interface.


It seems logical, doesn't it? Isolate the power to solve problems with power on the bus itself, right? Until recently, I thought so, too. It makes a certain degree of sense. But ime it just doesn't work like that. For certain types of noise maybe, but not for interference coming from the power going into the bus. Noise from the PSU or the wall travels into everything it's connected to.

I recently had a problem with a bad outlet for which no hubs or isolators could solve. I actually even tried one that not only "reclocks," but provided power through a quality 5v linear power supply, made by Schiit. The Wyrd. No SMPS there. Quality design and components. Of all of the hubs/isolators I tried, it was the only one that kind of worked. Slight reduction, though not nearly enough... it did something. It's entirely possible it actually did completely negate the interference on the USB cable's power side. But therein lies the rub. It only worked on the power side. The actual I/O signal was bad, too.

It seems there's more to it than just the juice running from the bus to power the device. It goes all the way back to where the power first enters the USB bus. If the power going into the mobo is bad, the interference is impossible to remove or isolate. When the USB bus receives dirty power, its entire operation is influenced by that and the interference makes its way into the data signal itself. No way to bypass that or even filter it out. Cleaning up the power to the device has little effect, as the data line itself has been compromised. And trying the hub I kept from my last endeavor seems to confirm that. It didn't make a difference :/

All the same, the whine itself is unbearably loud. Very quickly drove me crazy. I'm gonna have to change it out. Fortunately, I will get my money back through amazon. The plan is to swap it for insta credit and throw at most $20-$30 more towards a better one. To me that's not a huge loss to have something that I can be more sure just works like it's supposed to in short order. It's a compromise I can live with!

At this point I'm still just deliberating on what to go with. Maybe another EVGA G3, beefier Seasonic, or maybe even a Bitfenix Whisper M...


----------



## silentbogo (Aug 2, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> It seems logical, doesn't it? Isolate the power to solve problems with power on the bus itself, right? Until recently, I thought so, too. It makes a certain degree of sense. But ime it just doesn't work like that. For certain types of noise maybe, but not for interference coming from the power going into the bus. Noise from the PSU or the wall travels into everything it's connected to.


That's the point of getting a splitter and a powerbank - you only only have D+ and D- going into PC, while the power is delivered on the second "tail" of the Y-splitter from a more stable source like a battery pack or a linear power supply.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> That's the point of getting a splitter and a powerbank - you only only have D+ and D- going into PC, while the power is delivered on the second "tail" of the Y-splitter from a more stable source like a battery pack or a linear power supply.


I understand what you're getting at. The idea is to pass the data signal through but splice-in power from another source instead of taking it from the USB bus, basically just bypassing the power from the motherboard. Which seems like it should work. You naturally think that the solution to "bad power in the computer" is to not power things from the computer when possible. I used to think that, too. But the problem I seem to be having, and probably the reason that tactic doesn't work, is that the interference is actually compromising the data rails, too. Data just brings the noise right along with it. It spreads to literally anything connected to the source that carries an electrical signal, including the data lines. USB is a PITA for audio. No isolation whatsoever on the bus. I know that better than I ever wanted to at this point 

The worst part is I know it can be done, and is done on this mobo... ...my on-board audio doesn't pick up the whine. <_<

One thing these constant battles with different sources of USB noise has made me realize... ...the data lines on a USB cable are really just additional power lines. The common cliche is that data is data, but that's only partially true. In many cases it's also power. Without proper isolation any interference in the power driving the bus will always carry over to the data rail - that's how its generated.

Listening closer, my Modi 2 Uber DAC even seems to pick it up a little when it's fed via USB, even though it uses its own dedicated power source - and I mean bus power is not even connected inside the DAC. When I switch to optical, the noise goes away... because there's no opportunity for the interference to cross over, no path. It's completely electrically isolated from the computer. Electrical interference can't travel through beams of light 

And it's not like the chip compiling that optical signal has a way to just incorporate the noise its receiving into the information going out as something that could then be converted back as an audible noise.

And I mean, it really is so insipid that total, true isolation is the only way. If there's a way, this kind of noise finds it easily. Say I hook up the modi via both USB and optical. Even with the modi set to optical input, the noise still travels up the USB cable and into the outputs to the speakers, even though the input is "inactive." I also have a passive preamp with a two-input toggle, which sits between the modi and my speakers. Say I have one input accepting signal from the modi, with it hooked up via USB, and nothing hooked up to the other input. The noise is still heard through the speakers, _even when I toggle over to the unused input!_

Craazy stuff. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't experienced it for itself. But it literally permeates everything it touches. I feel like people must think I'm crazy when I try to explain it, but I really have explored every possibility I can here.

Basically the problem with trying to simply isolate it is that USB uses electrical pathways to transmit data. At the end of the day, a data line is just another power signal coming out of the same noisy source. So it can also carry any electrical interference on the bus down it, too. At that point it has free reign to travel through whatever it's connected to. It doesn't need to actually get into the data to travel through the analog output section of an audio device. It just sort of piggybacks down that line. Because of how USB packs and reconstructs data, it'll still come through just fine, the chip that puts it all together just has to work a lot harder to deal with all of the packet loss. That's what makes USB so reliable for 1:1 transfer. It can still work, even if there is inconsistent power.

Or at least that's what my experience leads me to assume. I have been all the way down that rabbit hole. Only option is to eliminate the source. :/


----------



## silentbogo (Aug 2, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> I seem to be having, and probably the reason that tactic doesn't work, is that the interference is actually compromising the data rails, too. Data just brings the noise right along with it. It spreads to literally anything connected to the source that carries an electrical signal, including the data lines. USB is a PITA for audio. No isolation whatsoever on the bus. I know that better than I ever wanted to at this point


USB is a digital bus, and most importantly it's differential. If you have actual noise on the data channel high enough that it can affect data and cause errors, you'd be getting all kinds of weird shit like non-working KB/mouse, non-working flash drives and a bunch of "Unknown USB devices" in your device manager along with "failed to get device descriptor" messages. The problem is not the data channel, the problem is power noise. If you've already tried external power to your DAC, and eliminated all the "ground loop" sources, then it might be a good time to actually check those speakers of yours, cause otherwise we are just running circles around your issue, and not solving it.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> USB is a digital bus, and most importantly it's differential. If you have actual noise on the data channel high enough that it can affect data and cause errors, you'd be getting all kinds of weird shit like non-working KB/mouse, non-working flash drives and a bunch of "Unknown USB devices" in your device manager along with "failed to get device descriptor" messages. The problem is not the data channel, the problem is power noise. If you've already tried external power to your DAC, and eliminated all the "ground loop" sources, then it might be a good time to actually check those speakers of yours, cause otherwise we are just running circles around your issue, and not solving it.


I don't think the noise is all that high, just enough that sensitive audio stuff picks it up and amplifies it. Otherwise I think it'd be affecting the rest of the machine. I'm familiar with USB dropouts from things like power dips and spikes, or interference around the mobo.

I've been through the whole ground loop procedure. I have tried running them on different circuits, every time alternating between running the computer on a seperate circuit or the same circuit as the speakers. I have even taken everything over to someone else's house and did just like I did here. It took it to work and tried it there, too. I have tried ground lifts/galvanic isolation, on both analog side and digital. Completely isolating from USB power bus. I'm running the speakers through balanced outputs. I've tried different speakers and cables, too. I've tried 3 different motherboards. Different cases, as well as no case. All again with the same circuit swapping and different speakers.

I don't know why it happens, I just know that it happens only when USB is carrying the audio, to any sort of USB audio device, even when it is isolated from power in the machine. And that it only happens with PSU's that have coil whine. What other explanation is there? I know that it seems unlikely but at this point it makes more sense than anything else. The data is the only thing I can't isolate, you know?


----------



## Ruyki (Aug 2, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Today I tested out my new Seasonic Focus Gold 550w only to find that it whines... ...like really bad. High-pitched and constant. I'm curious if any Seasonic owners can chime in and tell me if they've experienced this before I go through the trouble of exchanging it for a new one. I would think it's just a bad unit, but I want to be sure.


I have the G series 550w and the SSP-450RT and both of these have coil noise when under load. The coil noise can be clearly heard when the PSU is on the table next to you but it's actually fine if the PSU is in a case under my table. I also had an X series 650w which was the same I believe. All the PSUs I just mentioned are 80+ gold Seasonic units btw.



> On a side note, are there ANY PSU's that are particularly less likely to whine.


Yes, the corsair RM-550x. I picked this one specifically for low noise since I have my other computer set up on my shelf without a case and I couldn't stand the noise made by most PSUs. The RM-550x unit I have has no coil noise and the fan is super quiet too.


----------



## $ReaPeR$ (Aug 2, 2018)

i am thinking of ordering a ss focus 850 gold. anyone has experience with that psu? johnnyguru's review on this particular psu is stellar and that helped finalize my deision.


----------



## Frick (Aug 2, 2018)

Ruyki said:


> I have the G series 550w and the SSP-450RT and both of these have coil noise when under load. The coil noise can be clearly heard when the PSU is on the table next to you but it's actually fine if the PSU is in a case under my table. I also had an X series 650w which was the same I believe. All the PSUs I just mentioned are 80+ gold Seasonic units btw.



I see complaints about Seasonic coil whine from time to time, almost often enough to make me worry.


----------



## AsRock (Aug 2, 2018)

Frick said:


> I see complaints about Seasonic coil whine from time to time, almost often enough to make me worry.




Lets face it all brands pretty much all company's have been known for it at some point, how ever makes me think they mighht be cherry picking for reviews.  I am still yet to have one with coil whine.

I do know Seasonic support is top notch, well was 6 or so months ago at least.


----------



## hat (Aug 2, 2018)

This coil whine is the first bad thing I've heard about seasonic units. Haven't heard anything but good things about them until now.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Aug 2, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> It makes a certain degree of sense. But ime it just doesn't work like that. For certain types of noise maybe, but not for interference coming from the power going into the bus. Noise from the PSU or the wall travels into everything it's connected to.


You are missing the point. It makes perfect sense to isolate the power supply (run it outside the computer on a bread board) because if the noise is truly coil whine generated by a device inside the PSU, you hopefully will be able to hear the noise coming from the direction of the PSU. If the noise is still coming from within the computer case (or speakers), it is not PSU coil whine.

These troubleshooting steps don't automatically lead immediately to the culprit but often will eliminate one suspect from the list possible suspects.


robot zombie said:


> I don't know why it happens, I just know that it happens only when USB is carrying the audio, to any sort of USB audio device, even when it is isolated from power in the machine. And that it only happens with PSU's that have coil whine. What other explanation is there?


Nope! Again, true coil whine is caused by the "windings" of the wires physically vibrating and making noise. This happens all the time with transformer plates vibrating too - only then it is typically called a "buzzing" sound because it is done at a lower frequency in the audio spectrum (often the line frequency - 50 or 60Hz). 

Coil and transformer vibration is common. Whether they make noise (whine or buzz) often depends on if the epoxy resins used to seal the windings and plates was properly applied, or damaged or not. Note too coil while (or transformer buzz) will often come and go, depending on the load and/or the temperature of the device. As matter heats, it expands. As it cools, it contracts. Either can result in windings or plates coming loose and being vibrating.

You are right, however, that "interference" can create such noise. But that is not the same as true coil whine.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> You are missing the point. It makes perfect sense to isolate the power supply (run it outside the computer on a bread board) because if the noise is truly coil whine generated by a device inside the PSU, you hopefully will be able to hear the noise coming from the direction of the PSU. If the noise is still coming from within the computer case (or speakers), it is not PSU coil whine.


Whatever it is comes from the PSU. Doesn't matter where I plug it in, what machine I plug it into, or what speakers I have hooked up to what interface. The noise is there so long as I have that PSU hooked up, a usb audio interface hooked up to the mobo, and speakers plugged into it. And if I change it to a PSU that doesn't make this kind of noise, the noise goes away. So I have as you said already gone to measures to isolate the PSU.



> Coil and transformer vibration is common. Whether they make noise (whine or buzz) often depends on if the epoxy resins used to seal the windings and plates was properly applied, or damaged or not. Note too coil while (or transformer buzz) will often come and go, depending on the load and/or the temperature of the device. As matter heats, it expands. As it cools, it contracts. Either can result in windings or plates coming loose and being vibrating.
> 
> You are right, however, that "interference" can create such noise. But that is not the same as true coil whine.


That makes sense. Perhaps there is something happening with the PSU in addition to coil whine. I say that because it really does have that distinctive coil whine character to it. What you say is just a little strange to me as whatever the interference is has the same distinct sound as what most people would call "coil whine." It's not that I don't believe you. I'm just working with what I have to go by. For example, upon removing the PSU from the case and listening to the noise through the back of the PSU, while having one speaker hooked up to a usb interface pointed directly towards the other ear, I get the noise in stereo. It is literally exactly the same!

And again I have gone to fairly rigorous measures to try and isolate causes, trying different circuits/locations, speakers, devices, motherboards, cases, you name it... I have swapped it, in every single possible combo. The only two constants in the noise situation are A, a PSU that makes audible noise and B, a USB data connection to the audio interface. That is all that is required.

And on the flipside, if I swap to a PSU that does not make such noises, I cannot replicate the interference. I really do feel that I've tested all possible suspects at this point. And I've narrowed it down to two specific required conditions. There must be a noisy PSU, and at a minimum a USB data connection feeding something that feeds any kind of speakers. Literally everything else around those two things can change and the noise remains present both coming from PSU and being broadcast through speakers. While if I either switch out the PSU or use a non-electrical connection to the audio interface, it goes away.

So I really, truly can only conclude a few things here. The noise I'm hearing through my speakers is directly linked to the audible noise I have confirmed to be coming from the PSU. And the source is without a shadow of a doubt the PSU in question. I've done enough testing to narrow it down to that. So today I am sending it out for credit. Whatever the real explanation is, I may never know. And frankly I'm no longer interested in finding out. It's enough to know that all I really can do is get rid of the PSU, and that doing so does in fact rectify the problem. We can all go round and round with this for days, or I can get a quieter PSU and get on with my life.


----------



## Beastie (Aug 2, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> coil whine is caused by the "windings" of the wires physically vibrating and making noise.


Not disagreeing with that at all.

But I'd like to point out that although the vibration makes the "whine", the vibration is caused by resonance which is a function of both the electromagnetic and mechanical properties of the offending circuit.

 So if there is electronic noise this can _sometimes _ be accompanied by corresponding mechanical noise and visa versa.

 For example I had an old PC with a noname PSU. The sound from the minijack had a persistent high pitched whine. If I unplugged the minijack I could still (faintly) hear the same corresponding whine, from the PSU. Changing the PSU removed both the coil whine and the corresponding distortion coming over the minijack.

 I'm not saying this will always be the case, just that I have seen instances where coil whine and electronic interference are obviously linked.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 3, 2018)

Beastie said:


> Not disagreeing with that at all.
> 
> But I'd like to point out that although the vibration makes the "whine", the vibration is caused by resonance which is a function of both the electromagnetic and mechanical properties of the offending circuit.
> 
> ...


THANK you. Some of yall got me thinking I'm really losing it here. 

I get it. I know it's not exactly normal.

But... I mean, it's right there. Audible noise from inside this specific PSU transferring to _any_ speakers with nothing but a USB data connection between _any_ interface and _any_ machine (with _any_ combination of components inside _any_ case [or no case,] with the suspect PSU as the control,) all running off of _any_ circuit or combination of circuits in _any_ building, utilizing _any_ cables/cords/strips I can go between. *Phew* That's a lot of variables! I hope I didn't miss any  At this point I've gotten so efficient at all of these little testing procedures that I'd get a promotion if it was my job to do them.

It may seem like nonsense for an audible noise emanating from the PSU to translate into electrical noise, which then makes it to USB interfaces with just a data-only connection from the machine. But that's exactly what's happening. How or what's exactly happening, I don't know. But I have observed the outcome and the conditions required enough times to be sure the answer is somewhere in that specific scenario. I know... I wouldn't believe it if I wasn't stuck dealing with it. But then... experience with amplifiers and other highly-sensitive pieces of audio equipment reminds me that noise sometimes works in mysterious ways. Stranger things can happen.

Just seems like kind of a waste of everyone's time to look for other explanations when it's already long been established that noise goes away when I try another PSU. It just isn't sensible to blame anything but the PSU. Not trying to say I know better. Maybe one of you has the actual explanation, but that still wouldn't likely change the reality I'm already left with. At this point, I don't know how there could be any possible solution other than the one I've already verified will work. And it's not like I'm out that much more to swap a new PSU up a bracket, anyway. I'm happy to do that if it means not banging my head against a wall.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's input. I post about these issues because other people often see things I can't from where I'm at. I just want to be clear where I'm at with this so that we don't keep going in circles with what is actually a very simple problem when you ignore how strange it is.

I'm still kinda debating on a few PSU's. I'm torn between a 650w Supernova G3, RM 5/6/750x (depending on price difference,) Seasonic Focus+ Gold 650w, or maybe even a Bitfenix Whisper M 550w. If anybody has others that they've owned and can recommend in that general price range, I'm all ears. Specifically interested in whether or not you ever hear any whine in whatever PSU within this range that you happen to have experience with.


----------



## nomdeplume (Aug 3, 2018)

I think you would be much happier with a dedicated audio pc.  Or a saner hobby.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Aug 3, 2018)

AsRock said:


> Lets face it all brands pretty much all company's have been known for it at some point, how ever makes me think they mighht be cherry picking for reviews.  I am still yet to have one with coil whine.
> 
> I do know Seasonic support is top notch, well was 6 or so months ago at least.



I Have the X-1250XM2 from them, it is 4 years old, no coil whine.



robot zombie said:


> THANK you. Some of yall got me thinking I'm really losing it here.
> 
> I get it. I know it's not exactly normal.
> 
> ...


Get another SS.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Aug 3, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Whatever it is comes from the PSU. Doesn't matter where I plug it in, what machine I plug it into, or what speakers I have hooked up to what interface. The noise is there so long as I have that PSU hooked up, a usb audio interface hooked up to the mobo, and speakers plugged into it. And if I change it to a PSU that doesn't make this kind of noise, the noise goes away. So I have as you said already gone to measures to isolate the PSU.


Okay but again, if the noise is coming from the speakers and not from inside the PSU, that suggests electrical interference, not mechanical coil whine. This interference is likely caused by a faulty filter cap, bad ground, or faulty shielding inside the PSU (or some combination of those problems).


Beastie said:


> Not disagreeing with that at all.
> 
> But I'd like to point out that although the vibration makes the "whine", the vibration is caused by resonance which is a function of both the electromagnetic and mechanical properties of the offending circuit.
> 
> So if there is electronic noise this can _sometimes _ be accompanied by corresponding mechanical noise and visa versa.


True but NOT the point! Computer power supplies are supposed to output DC voltages only. There should be nothing on the output side of a computer power supply that is "alternating". So nothing would cause expanding and collapsing magnetic fields in any of the motherboard's or sound card's circuitry EXCEPT the analog portion of the audio (i.e. the music!).

Even if the PSU is failing to properly suppress the ripple, this would NOT be induced into those audio circuits as the audio is all handled digitally until converted by the DACs (powered by DC) in the final stages. If ripple suppression is that bad, it is likely the motherboard and/or CPU would fail to function.


----------



## Beastie (Aug 3, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> True but NOT the point! Computer power supplies are supposed to output DC voltages only. There should be nothing on the output side of a computer power supply that is "alternating". So nothing would cause expanding and collapsing magnetic fields in any of the motherboard's or sound card's circuitry EXCEPT the analog portion of the audio (i.e. the music!).
> 
> Even if the PSU is failing to properly suppress the ripple, this would NOT be induced into those audio circuits as the audio is all handled digitally until converted by the DACs (powered by DC) in the final stages. If ripple suppression is that bad, it is likely the motherboard and/or CPU would fail to function.



To clarify, I'm not saying coil whine will cause distortion of digital audio (or any other digital signal).
As you imply, digital pretty much works or it doesn't. If the issue were in the digital stage the effect would probably be silence, dropouts or clipping.
I think I appreciate the distinction you are making and I agree.

However if (as OP reports) there is distortion from both audio and a similar sounding coil whine then it maybe that the same issue is causing both. So- could be a bad PSU supplying USB power.. could be a bad mains supply from the grid.. could even be intereference from household lighting or other appliances.. or any combination of the above and other factors.


----------



## hat (Aug 4, 2018)

I'm pretty sure the OP mentioned using a UPS? That should filter out any bad power possibilities...


----------



## eidairaman1 (Aug 4, 2018)

hat said:


> I'm pretty sure the OP mentioned using a UPS? That should filter out any bad power possibilities...



They can be cause of problems too


----------



## Bill_Bright (Aug 4, 2018)

hat said:


> I'm pretty sure the OP mentioned using a UPS? That should filter out any bad power possibilities...


Not really. If the anomaly causing the problem is originating from the "grid", then the UPSs (if a decent UPS) will step in.

Remember, an UPS supplies AC to the PSU. So the PSU still must convert AC to DC and it is that process and circuitry  in the PSU where inductor coils (and transformer plates) exist. And sadly, if the UPS kicks over to battery and the UPS is not of good quality, it may even be delivering dirtier power!  Note this is NOT a debate about pure or approximation sinewave outputs so lets not go there in this thread.

If the voltage from the grid is clean (as it usually is 99.9% of the time), the UPS will simply "pass through" the AC to the connected devices until an anomaly is detected. With a quality UPS, when minor anomalies such as surges, spikes, dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges), or brownouts (long duration sags) occur, the UPS AVR (automatic voltage regulation) circuits will suppress or boost as necessary to clean up the waveform. If an extreme anomaly occurs (excessive surge, spike, dip or sag) occurs, it will kick over to battery. But regardless, it still delivers AC to the PSU.


----------



## AsRock (Aug 4, 2018)

To check if it's the mains or not why not just unplug the UPS from the wall and see if the issue is still there or not ?, well as long as the battery's good enough and you don't run it empty all should be good.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 4, 2018)

No UPS here. And as far as I can see/measure, power going in is good... ...or at least it's as good as my friends or my employers. Changing buildings generally has no effect.

I've decided to give Seasonic another shot. Got a 650w focus gold coming in. We shall see...



Bill_Bright said:


> Okay but again, if the noise is coming from the speakers and not from inside the PSU, that suggests electrical interference, not mechanical coil whine. This interference is likely caused by a faulty filter cap, bad ground, or faulty shielding inside the PSU (or some combination of those problems).


The noise comes from both. Same noise I hear directly out of the PSU, I also hear through speakers.

I think your explanation makes sense, though. At the end of the day, I agree with Beastie that the cause of both noises is probably shared directly. How things like this can happen without everything not working, even I don't know. Like I've said, wouldn't believe it if I wasn't witnessing it. There's something behind it that I don't think any of us have reached yet.



nomdeplume said:


> I think you would be much happier with a dedicated audio pc.  Or a saner hobby.


LOL just saw this. Dedicated audio pc would be sweet. In the past I've thought about doing a few arduino music server setups... ...have my entire library go to any audio setup in the house via those, fed by a central HTPC that stores it all and have the arduinos be controlled via my phone. But that's getting to ridiculous "do it just to do it" levels. Realistically I would like to build a production oriented machine at some point, though honestly I'm more interested in getting more physical gear in my life. A lot of stuff I've got my eye on. Racks and mixers man. I've got plans worked up for racks, stands, and desks. Did I mention I do woodworking (though I'm not very good at it) as a bit of a side hobby? What was that about sane hobbies again? I was busy intricately twisting together tiny 40g strands of wire to make coils for my vape. Though to be honest I've spent a good part of my day tweaking my Skyrim mods. I broke 250 on my mod list today.

I'd need meds to take on a normal pastime. You know something is wrong when I start going for walks, watching sports, or whatever it is normal people do.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 11, 2018)

Welp, wound up with a 750w Focus Gold because the price difference was basically nothing.

Shoulda known better. This time I decided not to drop it right in the case and I'm glad I didn't go removing the one in there now. This PSU is the worst yet. It's screeching like crazy. And because I have it out of the case, it's obviously coming straight from the PSU. What I get coming though speakers is aggressively loud. I can't overpower it with music.

In my entire time building PC's I have never had a PSU make any kind of noise. Even 20-30 dollar ones. Now I can't seem to get a decent one that doesn't. What's going on here?

EDIT: Listening more closely I can hear the sound coming from two places. If I listen at the PSU, I can hear the high-pitched ringing sound. The other place I can hear it really well is off of the back of the motherboard, where the VRM's are...

And actually, if I put my ear up to the VRM's, I can hear this intermittent crackling, which has been a constant with all PSU's, except for the one. But that's with every board I've tried. Is it possible all of them just have VRM problems? I want to believe the naughty PSU's are causing them to make the noise but I don't know anymore.

Just tried it in my secondary rig. Same exact issue when I plug in this PSU. Safe to say I will probaby never buy Seasonic again. Don't care how good the performance is if it leaves my ears ringing after I turn it off. :/

Weirdly enough... switching stuff around has made this EVGA 450BT a lot quieter. Whether or not it will stay that way I don't know... Still noise, but it's low. I'd keep it as a compromise, but I've got a ryzen 5 2600 on the way, which I don't feel comfortable running off of a substandard PSU... I won't be installing it until I get a decent one that's quiet. So I guess the quest continues.


----------



## nomdeplume (Aug 12, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> In my entire time building PC's I have never had a PSU make any kind of noise. Even 20-30 dollar ones. Now I can't seem to get a decent one that doesn't. What's going on here?



Amazon?

Going to be honest I didn't have great hopes for this Gold psu.  If every other one you have ever owned was quiet I would just buy the cheapest one available locally.  No shipping.  For $20 you can afford to throw it at something immovable if it does the same thing.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 12, 2018)

nomdeplume said:


> Amazon?
> 
> Going to be honest I didn't have great hopes for this Gold psu.  If every other one you have ever owned was quiet I would just buy the cheapest one available locally.  No shipping.  For $20 you can afford to throw it at something immovable if it does the same thing.


True. And yes it's been amazon the whole time. I have prime and the return policy is godlike. Unfortunately there is nowhere I can go around here to walk in and buy a PSU.

Maybe I'll just snag another G3 and get on with my life 

But with my luck something else will happen XD


----------



## nomdeplume (Aug 12, 2018)

To some extent you tried the right things in the wrong order.  Proof of concept the psu issue can be solved might go a long ways here though.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 12, 2018)

nomdeplume said:


> To some extent you tried the right things in the wrong order.  Proof of concept the psu issue can be solved might go a long ways here though.


I mean, I've done that. An EVGA G3 550w didn't make any audible noise and left me with quiet speakers, with everything else in this build the same as it is now. Unfortunately, I don't have that exact PSU now. I wasn't expecting that I would wind up with nothing but unbearably noisy PSU's. It's never, ever, been a thing in my mind. So now all I can do is try to find another one like that, which for some reason is now like playing the lottery. Don't know what you've got till its gone. Took it for granted and now it's too late.

I accept that this is partially my fault for being trusting, getting ahead of myself, and fixing what wasn't broken, but now I'm in the hands of fate, and with everything that's happened it seems like I could've been from the very beginning of this build. 1 out 5 PSU's from different brands now and only the very first one did not have this problem at all.


----------



## hat (Aug 12, 2018)

Two Seasonic units with shitty coil whine? That's really strange. I'm starting to wonder if Seasonic isn't going downhill...


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 12, 2018)

hat said:


> Two Seasonic units with shitty coil whine? That's really strange. I'm starting to wonder if Seasonic isn't going downhill...


I'm not even sure it is coil whine. When I used to repair guitar amplifiers, bad capacitors sometimes used to squeal like that. Flick it on and you can hear this high-pitched, whining, squealing noise coming from the back and out of the cab. I remember it well because that's a nerve wracking thing to try and fix. Removing big capacitors is very dangerous, tricky business. Sometimes I had to send them out. It sounds awful similar to those, though.

It's definitely something. I'm going to go through the usual of trying different locations and machines before I send it back. Fortunately I have the connections to do that. All I know for now is that it's exactly the same on two different machines with completely different parts on completely different circuits.

But yeah, I'm not sure what to make of it. Nobody can be that unlucky, right? Both bought from Amazon.


----------



## hat (Aug 12, 2018)

Maybe, or maybe Seasonic is beginning to ride the coattails of their own reputation, much like Corsair did with their power supply units. Originally they sourced them from... good old Seasonic, and then went with other ceaper/lesser quality brands, slapping the same Corsair label on them that had a reputation for quality...

I don't think you could be that unlucky, but I don't want to believe that one of the few known good power supply manufacturers is starting to put out shitty units, either.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 12, 2018)

hat said:


> Maybe, or maybe Seasonic is beginning to ride the coattails of their own reputation, much like Corsair did with their power supply units. Originally they sourced them from... good old Seasonic, and then went with other ceaper/lesser quality brands, slapping the same Corsair label on them that had a reputation for quality...
> 
> I don't think you could be that unlucky, but I don't want to believe that one of the few known good power supply manufacturers is starting to put out shitty units, either.


I'm right there with you. Not sure what to make of it. But I know at least one other person in here has had multiple noisy Seasonics.

The thing is, this exact unit tested exceptionally well with johnnyguru. I wish I had the means to test this one myself! I'm wondering if maybe it does test well, but is just noisy for whatever reason. I wonder about that with a lot of PSU's now... ...it's one of those things people never seem to talk about. And for me, it only matters because it seriously fucks with USB audio, which is still kind of a niche use. Everything else works fine. All rails run about as close to perfect as possible.


----------



## hat (Aug 12, 2018)

I would expect coil whine to be covered by a review done by johnnyguru. If not, that's a pretty poor oversight on their part, as that is a major concern for a lot of people looking to buy a power supply. It's also possible maybe you really are that unlucky, or maybe quality has gone downhill at Seasonic at some point after that review, or maybe Seasonic sent them a cherry picked unit for review. Lots of possibilities here and no way to know for certain... not much point in doing anything else other than saying "well, fuck" and trying to find a good power supply once again.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Aug 12, 2018)

@robot zombie :  Sorry for the frustration.  My current thought is to try another brand.  Also to step up to a Platinum or Titanium PSU for better quality and you could then drop down to the original 550W size.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 12, 2018)

hat said:


> I would expect coil whine to be covered by a review done by johnnyguru. If not, that's a pretty poor oversight on their part, as that is a major concern for a lot of people looking to buy a power supply. It's also possible maybe you really are that unlucky, or maybe quality has gone downhill at Seasonic at some point after that review, or maybe Seasonic sent them a cherry picked unit for review. Lots of possibilities here and no way to know for certain... not much point in doing anything else other than saying "well, fuck" and trying to find a good power supply once again.


Yeap... ...not much else I can do.



jsfitz54 said:


> @robot zombie :  Sorry for the frustration.  My current thought is to try another brand.  Also to step up to a Platinum or Titanium PSU for better quality and you could then drop down to the original 550W size.


It is what it is man, I accept this as my burden in life. Ultimately all will be as it should be. I look back on my general luck with PC's over the years and yeah... ...my luck seems to be catching up with me in a big way. I'd rather know I am unlucky than be lucky and not know it.

But yeah, that was my thinking as well. I'm also kind of relenting over the thought of another EVGA Supernova G3. Only one that didn't let me down on this.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Aug 15, 2018)

@robot zombie : * Price is good*, Newegg sale with rebate:  https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...-_-PowerSupplies-_-17438133-S3A7A&ignorebbr=1

*EVGA SuperNOVA 850 G1+, 80 Plus Gold 850W, Fully Modular, FDB Fan, 10 Year Warranty, Includes Power ON Self Tester, Power Supply 120-GP-0850-X1*
*Warranty Upgrade to 12 Years*
(11)
Write a Review See *2* Questions | *12* Answers
SHARE
In stock. Limit 3 per customer. Ships from United States.
Sold and Shipped by Newegg


100% Japanese Capacitors ensure long-term reliability; Unbeatable EVGA 10 Year Warranty and unparalleled EVGA Customer Support
80 PLUS Gold certified, with 90% (115VAC) / 92% (220VAC~240VAC) efficiency or higher under typical loads
Fully Modular to reduce clutter and improve airflow
Whisper Silent with 135mm Fluid Dynamic Bearing Fan
Heavy-duty protections, including OVP (Over Voltage Protection), UVP (Under Voltage Protection), OCP (Over Current Protection), OPP (Over Power Protection), SCP (Short Circuit Protection), and OTP (Over Temperature Protection)


*$89.99*
*Sale Ends in 3 Days (Thu)Save: $60.00 (40%)*
*$69.99 after $20.00 rebate card*
*$3.99 Shipping (restrictions apply)*

Also, *FSP *makes good PSU's, have had good luck with them. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod...ription=fsp&ignorear=0&N=100007657&isNodeId=1


----------



## eidairaman1 (Aug 15, 2018)

Please contact Seasonic to inform them of this.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 15, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Please contact Seasonic to inform them of this.


Absolutely. A good idea. Kinda wish I had kept it to send out to them, now that I think about it. But atm I no longer have the funds to have stuff like that sitting around :/

I'm sure they'll be interested to know, either way. Maybe they can offer some explanation, at least. I know they're a good company. If they have anything interesting to say, I'll pass it on.

I do wanna be 100% sure, though. I feel like I've done all I can on my end, but I want to get a properly working PSU in this machine first. Say I go with another brand and this problem is still not resolved, you know? At this point, I'm not settling on any hard conclusions. I've had only one PSU hooked up to this machine that didn't have this problem. I think I've confirmed major issues with the other PSU's, but it's hard to look past multiple units having the same problem with the same machine, even if I CAN replicate it on other machines. I want to be able to say to them that I have a quiet, working unit in the machine.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... I'm not sure what's more silly - to believe that the PSU's are to blame, or something else. My brain is mush at this point.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Aug 15, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Absolutely. A good idea. Kinda wish I had kept it to send out to them, now that I think about it. But atm I no longer have the funds to have stuff like that sitting around :/
> 
> I'm sure they'll be interested to know, either way. Maybe they can offer some explanation, at least. I know they're a good company. If they have anything interesting to say, I'll pass it on.
> 
> ...


They are a pretty good company but you could of helped them if there is something wonky in the lineup. Feedback good or bad helpd a company grow.

My psu from 4 years ago is perfect but doesn't mean that othrrs haven't had problems.

Ive heard their customer support is pretty high even. I believe @AsRock has a testimony for them.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 15, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> They are a pretty good company but you could of helped them if there is something wonky in the lineup. Feedback good or bad helpd a company grow.
> 
> My psu from 4 years ago is perfect but doesn't mean that othrrs haven't had problems.
> 
> Ive heard their customer support is pretty high even. I believe @AsRock has a testimony for them.


Oh I believe it. The Focus Gold lineup, I will never ever buy again... ...but nor will I recommend against it just because I had a bad experience. I'm also not against trying future offerings from them. I like putting my money into companies who care about their products and prioritize service/support. Seasonic fits the bill there, even if I got a couple of bum units.

I usually like to let companies know when I encounter weird issues. Recently, I actually went back and forth with Focusrite over an issue with my Scarlett 2i2, as well as competitors products. And when I managed to solve the problem, I let them know. Unfortunately I had fallen prey to a design weakness with their product. I got on the bad side of a compromise and suggested what I thought was a better one. My situation was an outlier, but likely something others had dealt with, judging from all of the reviewers who seemed to have the same problem, but unfortunately failed to resolve it. I mentioned that, too. In my case it was an aging outlet, likely with either poor ground isolation or simply skewed potential. But they could have made it so that it wasn't vulnerable to that particular interference by taking it off of USB bus power. Very similar products I've owned/used didn't suffer for it because it had dedicated power instead of running off of the USB bus, while I had the same issue with other similar bus-powered devices. I told them that I would've like to see an optional SMPS just to be able to easily mitigate the issue for users who expect not to have to troubleshoot a long-known potential issue with sensitive audio stuff out of the box. In audio there are other compelling reasons for getting off of USB power, which I also mentioned as being important to me and likely others.

They seemed to appreciate it. In fact they seemed to agree that it was a good idea. Hopefully they keep stuff like that in mind in the future.

Like I said, I would've liked to have been able to send the unit out to them. Just too little too late.

I like doing things like that. I like seeing products get better. If companies think something is working for their buyers when it actually isn't, they don't change it. They can't account for everything. I think it's important for us as consumers to recognize that. I'm not a big fan of just bitching and moaning at the sky, hehe. It just doesn't change anything. I will share my little story with them, at least. That might.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 21, 2018)

Well... ...most important first. I've got my Corsair RM650x up and running. Happy to report that it is dead quiet. My face lit up when I pressed the power button and nothing but silence followed. That's something the Seasonics couldn't do for me. It's official - those Seasonic PSU's were definitely faulty. I mean, the moment I power on any machine, on any circuit, they scream. While this one doesn't. So that's kinda that.

The noises I heard before, both coming from the speakers and from various components in the machine are gone. What's left coming through the speakers is so faint that I can live with it. It's not at all like before, where it was just obnoxious screeching and cracking and popping coming from damned near everything. I'm still kind of taken aback by that. But no... this noise is characteristically different.

I suspect the remaining noise I'm hearing is actually from my EVGA GTX 1050. It sounds like what people often call "GPU coil whine." Which listening to samples can literally sound like anything  I think what people are calling coil whine is actually something else (or maybe its better to say it is a catch-all for many different things.) What I mean is that is sounds specifically like what is often heard coming from GPU's. Just like it is for me, it often causes audio interference as well, which as bill pointed out earlier, shouldn't be with simple coil whine. But it nearly always is with reports of GPU "coil whine." And it certainly is now. I can hear the characteristic GPU whine coming ONLY from the GPU. If I switch it into another machine I get the same result. I have an RX 580 on the way. I strongly believe that'll be the end of it. It's possible that this GPU has been whining the whole time, and I just couldn't discern it from other sources of noise that are only now eliminated.


Here's what I'm left with. I have dealt with not one source of noise, but many. Over time swapping things out, the source probably changed from one to the other. I'm now of the belief that nearly any part can show this vulnerability under the right circumstances. Somehow I managed to create several different scenarios leading to it. And unfortunately, I didn't do anything "wrong" here. There's nothing in all of this that says "Just don't don't do that and you'll be fine." It's not like I could've had any way of knowing. I am not new to this stuff at all. I built my first machine over a decade ago. And I have never encountered anything like this. Only ever heard faint whisperings... ...thought it was something that just doesn't happen all that often and when it does you swap out and move on.

I suspect that it is a set of widespread quality, or perhaps design problems that I think need to be addressed but likely won't be possible to. There must be a way to mitigate this on a component level, but I don't think it would be an easy thing to reproduce enough to snuff out from a design standpoint. You'd have to test everything with everything.

And yet, I've gone through several PSU's that are certifiably noisy, a mobo, a GPU... All of them isolated as sources of noise all on their own in many, many different configurations, even in different environments and on different main circuits. There's something to be said about that. It's hard for me to believe it still! But I'm not the only one to have this issue. In fact someone else has a thread on it right now!

It's one of those things that can happen to anyone, with no way to pinpoint it or know when it's gonna happen. I went through so many parts, circuits, setups, everything... ...and at different points, doing different things either made the noise change/go away, or come back. The only way I see that happening is if several components are involved. I really do believe that I could've moved out, built a whole new machine and still had the same problem! It likely runs that deep! This is no conspiracy. Just a matter of luck of the draw. Though I really think that if these are the odds, something is seriously wrong.

I think it's more widespread than people realize, and it doesn't seem to be something that anybody fully understands. No support teams I contacted had any idea or helpful advice (and to their credit many of them were awesome - they really tried and no doubt help tons of people!) In my travels I encountered many conversations just like the one in this thread. Same problems, to the letter. And many have gone to the same exhaustive measures as me. Often leading to no satisfactory explanation or solution. And when there has been a fix, it's been different every time. None of the conventional advice has worked in my case, or any that I have seen. This, to me, can only suggest that there is something going on with all of these cases that nobody has really gotten to the heart of. We have explanations that are somewhat true sometimes, but that's it. No definitive information exists on this shit! I've looked for a loooonnngg time!

Two things seems to be happening. Number one is a communications breakdown. People are mis-describing the problem as something it is not, and people on the other end are assuming something different. Overgeneralizing it. It may not be possible to even have a real conversation about it. Too many unknowns and things that can't reasonably be tested by enough people. The other part of the equation is that whatever is causing these problems must be component level and hard for users to test/verify, let alone report in an accurate or meaningful way. It's something manufacturers would have to figure out.

All I've got. Nerve wracking to know that things like this can happen, and that a problem like this could be around the corner at any time. I expect more for my money, and yet this is something nobody can expect to be guaranteed. Hmmm... it's a lot to take in. But I really doubt I'm just unlucky. It's not that uncommon with PC's. In months of looking into this crap, I've learned that there are so many people like me it isn't even funny. To me, that is unacceptable. But otoh, what can anyone do? Where do you even fuckin start when this is what you've got? Call me dramatic or whatever. That sucks :/

I'm going to let Seasonic know about my tribulations. That is at least one thing I'm sure of now. But I don't know if that's really enough. Even if Seasonic gets on top of it, people will continue having these problems and nobody will know why. And the worst part is _there is no known, proven fix._ The best advice anyone can give is to try a bunch of shit and hope something works. That's a bunch of crap. These things shouldn't happen to anyone. These are things that should just work. "Build a new machine." when there should be nothing wrong with the current one is not a reasonable fix. I'm not satisfied with how any of this has gone, or how I've seen it go for too many others. There's something to all of this. It seems like this isolated thing, but to me it's more like a prevalent problem that usually goes unseen. 

Honestly, I am tired of thinking about it. At this point, I have reached a level I can live with. And that's exactly what I'm gonna do. I'll take it, cut my losses, and just be happy my PSU isn't screaming at me anymore 

I'll chime in when I have the new GPU installed. After that, I'm over this. I feel like this is something I could spend a lifetime figuring out. Or I could let it go and be a whole lot better put together in the end. Honestly, this is just a very longwinded way of saying that technology as it is now is not nearly good enough. Unbelievable, aint it?


----------



## nomdeplume (Aug 21, 2018)

All of this originated with that faulty wall outlet.  

Be well and sleep even weller knowing this is over.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 21, 2018)

nomdeplume said:


> All of this originated with that faulty wall outlet.


Ahh but the problem is it didn't end there! 



> Be well and sleep even weller knowing this is over.


Thank you, I sure will!


----------



## eidairaman1 (Aug 21, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Well... ...most important first. I've got my Corsair RM650x up and running. Happy to report that it is dead quiet. My face lit up when I pressed the power button and nothing but silence followed. That's something the Seasonics couldn't do for me. It's official - those Seasonic PSU's were definitely faulty. I mean, the moment I power on any machine, on any circuit, they scream. While this one doesn't. So that's kinda that.
> 
> The noises I heard before, both coming from the speakers and from various components in the machine are gone. What's left coming through the speakers is so faint that I can live with it. It's not at all like before, where it was just obnoxious screeching and cracking and popping coming from damned near everything. I'm still kind of taken aback by that. But no... this noise is characteristically different.
> 
> ...



Its possible you had a batch from seasonic that could of been faulty as companies buy in bulk.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 21, 2018)

Ranting about this build a little below.


Spoiler



I will say... other than this, I'm really happy with how this build is coming together. I'm not getting too bitter about it. Honestly, I wasn't shooting for something this far into midrange. I started off with a super-budget build just to buy into current stuff, but then the right opportunities and misfortunes made it possible for me to have something that affords me so much more bang for my buck. I got a whole lot more than I'd hoped to, even with these issues.

Big picture... through the absurd amount of RMA's and switching around I had to do I actually wound up with a way better machine for very little money on top. Amazon may never let me return anything ever again, but like I said a couple weeks ago, "Everything will be as it should be."

And I swear that's so true. My old PSU foresaw me getting an AMD GPU alongside a beefier CPU and thus needing a lil more headroom, so it, um "reached out" to me through my speakers lol.

And then my recent GPU replacement foreshadowed that my lowly 1050 had whine I didn't yet know about. The universe said to me, "Hey, buy this RX 580 for $150, you'll need it for your travels." Day it ships, I discover the 1050 I've only been marginally satisfied with as-is has a minor noise problem. Someone here just happened to drop a decent, well-kept midrange card into my lap simultaneously - right as I began realizing that no Nvidia card, current or next-gen is going to be worth it for me in this market and had accepted that I would probably skip the good 10xx and 20xx cards for the foreseeable future unless I got crazy lucky. Even more unprecedented, I got an AMD offering at a better value than a comparable Nvidia one. When does that ever happen? Nobody gets to buy an RX 580 for better performance per dollar lol

And then, of course, AMD must've known I needed some multi-threading for my mixing software when they put up a 6c/12t CPU for ~$160. They also must've known about the like-new X370 board I had recently got for $120 to replace a dud B350 that I paid a little more than that for, and how it inspired me to upgrade my CPU in step. Top bid on ebay made me almost all of my money back on the refurb B350 I got from Asus. The old Ryzen 3 went in a build I did at a small profit, for an old friend from years ago that I randomly got back in touch with - this covered the 2600 completely. And then of course the cheap RAM I once thought was dead clocks up from 2400 to 3200 and runs stable like it's not a thing. Now, I'm looking at maybe $80 to have 16GB instead of $200. Means I can swing that second evo 860 I've been wanting.

It's so real, man. If I didn't have these problems, I wouldn't have half the stuff I do now. And the rest would've been holding me back if I hadn't replaced it for other reasons. Now, if somebody wants to buy my slightly whiny 1050, I will have a decent midrange build for just a smidgen _less_ than I paid for the budget build I shot for originally! Life is eerily serendipitous sometimes.

Pretty much comes down to minor storage and aesthetic upgrades, now. No more big stuff or major tweaking to be done. After the new GPU arrives, I'm considering this one finished. People told me I picked a bad time to pick custom PC's back up but I think they were wrong, unless they foresaw my terrible luck with parts, heh. Just that one pesky problem that wouldn't go away no matter what I tried. So now... if I can just spend less time dicking around with inane crap and just appreciating the good fortune that came with it from here on in, I'll be good 





eidairaman1 said:


> Its possible you had a batch from seasonic that could of been faulty as companies buy in bulk.


As far as Seasonic's role in all of this goes... yes, it seems likely. I will be passing on whatever info I have to them. I keep serial numbers and other codes and things like that around - specifically for crap like this, so they'll likely be able to figure out what batch mine came from and investigate. About all we can hope for. I don't believe in "YOU fucked up, so you help me at the expense of your company and other customers." I think it should be more like "You help me, I help you." In this case I helped myself so I just hope the info I have will be useful. Be a shame for other people to get a hold of one like mine and have something really bad happen. They were so bad, my first assumption was "Now that's gotta be from something else. No WAY those are doing that on their own. Two separate models? Not possible..."

Now I know it is. Happens sometimes, even to the best of em. Shame, too. This RM650x is really well made from what I can tell, but the Seasonic was definitely a little better. Not to mention the cables didn't have long, epoxy and capacitor stuffed sheathing on the "device" end - and they were long enough to connect to the PSU with it outside of the machine. I really wanted to have one of those. Instead I got an also solid PSU that'll have to buy better cables for, heh.

As far as the rest of it goes, I just don't know anymore. It goes beyond just this thread. Started with an outlet, a mobo, a handful of USB audio interfaces, and a ton of obnoxious noise. Eliminated other secondary contributing sources along the way. The beginning of this thread is more like chapter 5 in my unprecedented noise gauntlet. I know stuff is just noisy sometimes, but in my case, pretty much every possible source of noise has found its way to me one after the other, simply for the crime of doing what everybody else does with their builds and expecting it to work like it should. I'm just waiting for my RCA cables to start picking up radio signals! At this point, it would make more sense if there was a beacon in my head making my brain pick up the noise than it having anything to do with any of my equipment 

But no, really. There's another thread here with something like this happening to someone else right now. And I've read many horror stories just like mine. Makes me wonder why so much of this expensive electronic gear is THAT sensitive to noise, so much so that it a seems to defy physics and basic principles of electricity. Something is wrong with that picture. Maybe personal bias talking. I've had some bad times this year. I just feel like it doesn't need to be. In my vast troubleshooting web I have encountered many great, feasible solutions that simply don't exist. How a vulnerability can go so overlooked is beyond me. Just my takeaway.


----------



## hat (Aug 21, 2018)

FWIW, I've always heard some kind of buzzing noise from speakers (at least hooked up to analog, not sure about digital) at high volumes. There's some kind of background noise there... but amplified coil whine would be extremely aggravating. Admittedly my PSU whines a little, but it's not enough to drive me crazy. Now back in the day I had an Antec Smartpower 2.0 and that thing... it drove me mad.

Anyway I'm glad you got it sorted, and I appreciate the lengths you went to trying to figure it out and documenting the whole thing here. It frustrates me to know that you got two bad units in a row from Seasonic of all places... if you do contact them about it, please bring that to us as well. Seasonic is my top brand power supply and it's what I would prefer to buy myself if the need arose or recommend to anyone else in the market, but that coil whine is kinda shaking my faith with that...


----------



## purecain (Aug 21, 2018)

I just bought the 1000w version based on the fact that seasonic are the best psu's money can buy. Then I hit the forum and spotted your post... I really hope the quality of this psu lives up to my expectations. I'll be sending it straight back if it makes any noise at all. I hope you get your coil whine issue sorted.


----------



## hat (Aug 21, 2018)

purecain said:


> I just bought the 1000w version based on the fact that seasonic are the best psu's money can buy. Then I hit the forum and spotted your post... I really hope the quality of this psu lives up to my expectations. I'll be sending it straight back if it makes any noise at all. I hope you get your coil whine issue sorted.


Let us know if it's noisy or not, if you don't mind


----------



## Ferrum Master (Aug 21, 2018)

That's the first time reading so much frustration over a common known problem...

First time seeing someone just doing doing doing... YOU HAVE TO DO LOOP MEASURING. Not your ears, loopback test and find the noise in the graph! All your doing need to have reason and it should be shown there in the plot. Audacity is your friend.

And there are USB isolators and those are commonly used, especially with RF and medical devices, as basically domestic grade things we have, seasonic or not is all sh**. It is a waste of breath to fight it, as for a common mainstream user it is not an issue. Also thinking that better efficiency grade should help with rail noise? Nada, it is not working like that, those two are not directly related, the platform principle, filtering complexity and then part quality. Bigger powered PSU's from the same line(platform) rarely do differ in minor voltages, the 12V rail is only beefed. The problem usually remains, it is by design.

PC is a crap source as it is full of leaky loud PLL's, dynamic clocks(the worst sucker), vibrations, EM fields from rotating fans... (they rotate 1000-3000Hz = audio range) it is nearly impossible to filter it out and have a proper clean analog line in audio spectrum and again, nobody bothers about that, while scrolling web or watching kitten videos.

If you do not hear it, it doesn't mean it is not there. Basically concentration only on the coil whine in the PSU is a miss... the biggest fluctuation is caused by the CPU interrupts, and the thing that has the lowest access to do that and does that often is mice... it causes VRM's to sing in a choir as the current systematically flows according to your interrupt rate... and mouse works from 100Hz to 1000Hz and thats audio spectrum... with current PC manufacturing trends, the VRM sections are awful(their switching speed is also matters)... so in the end, it all sums up, some platforms are more prone to it thou, some are not. Basically, more efficient modern PC's cause more EM noise due to power conservation in idle, it a known practice for PA guys to disable any kind of power saving for any device to fight noise. 

Plan A
Try cheap ADUM4160 + charge pump type 5W power converter based things, that deliver USB 1.0 speeds, it is enough for two channel recording, if your device allows such mode, there rare but more pricey USB 2.0 isolators, that work, I have them too.  And only then connect the PC with some other audio devices for audio reproduction or recording. After those isolators measurements are dead silent and USB data + 5V rail noise loop is lifted. There are other ones thou... With grounding problems you can kill those isolators too, keep in mind that.

Plan B
Use SPDIF optical, it should remedy all your problems for home usage and bring the noise floor to the desired bottom and it is cheap.

Plan C
There are PA guys, doing concerts, venues... ask them for help and advice, they are used to it, if some noise would pick up during concert, or recording is spoiled, they loose their job, they know what to do usually.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 22, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> That's the first time reading so much frustration over a common known problem...
> 
> First time seeing someone just doing doing doing... YOU HAVE TO DO LOOP MEASURING. Not your ears, loopback test and find the noise in the graph! All your doing need to have reason and it should be shown there in the plot. Audacity is your friend.
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff. I agree with a lot of that. It's nice to see some actual explanations confirming what I've been suspecting. I'm not sure I agree that consumers don't care. I think at best they're complacent about it. I mean, when you buy an "audio grade" mobo and have noise in your fancy gaming headset with your fancy GPU, PSU, CPU... ...and you spent good money on it all, you're going to be mad that something like that is taking away from your experience. People will pay for that, I bet. Nobody truly finds it acceptable. They begrudgingly take the only option they have. And people talk about this all of the time. Noise is a real concern for many enthusiasts. People place increased value on quieter gear. A great many people out there do more than scroll the web and watch kitten videos  For many people, these machines are supposed to be high-end, one-stop entertainment centers. With that comes the expectation that there won't be interference.

I do agree that it's kind of hit or miss. And I know all too well that pretty much anything inside of a PC can cause these issues. That is what I'm frustrated with. I wish there were audio-oriented options. Beef up the isolation... ...avoid situations where audible noise carries through, even at the expense of things that maybe aren't as important in some cases. Even the stuff marketed as such, really isn't that at all. Maybe they put in a nicer DAC, better output section, whatever. But fundamentally they're the same and have the same vulnerabilities. Maybe some people don't care, but a lot do. I think of all of the studios out there with PC's doing increasingly more of the work.  I have money that I would put towards that, but nobody wants to take it! And it's impossible to shop for what I need. I have to basically just cross my fingers, you know? I get that it's pretty much by design. I just wish more was being done to mitigate it. You know? I don't think it's too much to ask. Many people won't want to pay for that, but for those of us that would, it'd be nice to actually be able to.

Funny how new components are worse about this. Years back, none of my older machines ever had these problems. Not once.

The mouse/VRM thing is interesting. I didn't observe the mouse issue, though I've heard of it. CPU/VRM dependent interference, I have definitely encountered. Personally, I will say that I don't care whether it's there or not. I can accept that it's part of the deal when trying to link up all of these different, naturally noisy components in one enclosure. The only problem is that I can hear it, loudly. Already knowing that doesn't have to be and often isn't the case, I can't simply accept it as the nature of the beast. Not when I know it is possible to do better with what's available.

And with those PSU's it was beyond a minor annoyance. When the noise is so loud I can hear it over everything... ...to the point where it drowns out reverbs and keeps me from being able to properly EQ... ...that is unacceptable. I don't think anybody would accept what I got from those PSU's - not even for cat videos. It was freakishly pervasive and penetrating. They were really screaming. Just this horrible piercing noise drilling into your head and taking all of your concentration away. Shrill and painful. Sticks with you when it's turned off. Most PSU's I've had were not that bad. And I'm not talking about interference. I'm talking about extremely loud, audible noise coming directly from the PSU. Nothing about that is normal or acceptable. If that's just how PSU's are then things have really changed.

My thinking was simple logic. I had no noise issues until I changed the PSU, so to me it makes sense to try to find another PSU that isn't as susceptible. Other components may still have vulnerabilities, but they weren't coming into play for me. I had already ruled those out. Only the PSU's noise was audible in my speakers - and only the right PSU solved it. I knew this before I had one of my own in hand. So it made sense to me *shrugs* Not gonna pretend like I think it was ideal, or that it really went all that well. But I think I'll live. In the end it did get me what I was after. Changing the PSU eliminated noise both through the speakers and coming from other components, save for the GPU, which I think you can blame the GPU's VRM for. I actually touched on it being a losing battle. I can see that. But for me persistence paid off and I finally got what I was after. All it cost me was a little time and peace of mind, for a little while. I only wish there had been a better way.

I think what you're saying makes perfect sense. It's the situation itself that's nonsense. And it was all I could do just to try everything I could muster. I've considered the approaches you've mentioned, and others as well. I may not have done loopback testing, but at no point did I not have enough to go by to pin down the cause. From the very beginning, I had it isolated to the PSU. It was already confirmed that it is possible to have a PSU in there that makes it a non-issue. I just don't see how whether or not I had susceptibilities in other areas would have changed what needed to be done. Having tried everything else, the best I could do was try to find a more suitable unit. I really don't think it's all that unreasonable of an approach. Maybe you picture me just flailing my arms around or something. Simply not the case. I sat and I thought about this. I researched as deeply as I could. I used every means I had access to and I tried to always approach it calmly, just chipping away at everything little by little. There was just nothing left to do.

USB isolators I've tried extensively. None of them worked for me. I had some that worked passively, and others that lifted things off of the USB bus... ...but in the end, so long as USB was supplying data, the noise was as loud as ever. :/

My DAC takes optical input and yes, that works perfectly. I've mentioned that. The problem is that I can't monitor input through it. For listening it's great, but past that it's not helping me. And low latency interfaces with optical i/o are prohibitively expensive. Not to mention they necessitate multiple optical lines, when I only have the one out on my mobo. So now I'm stuck buying a sound card, a pricey interface with features I don't need, and just hoping the sound card is snappy enough to be suitable. Not ideal.

I do wish I had better access to people with real experience here. I have struggled to find ANYTHING that works, outside of changing the suspect part. And like you said, there's no way to completely remove the underlying vulnerability. That's how I got to the point where I was swapping components and just praying that things would change. If I could've found an easier, more sensible way, I would have. Believe me, I tried the more sensible options first. Before this thread.


----------



## hat (Aug 22, 2018)

I agree. Coil whine, interference and other electrical noises like that fuck me up the wall. I can deal with the little bit of coil whine I get from my PSU, but if it were coming through my speakers I would take it 10x worse. That's just unacceptable.


----------



## purecain (Aug 22, 2018)

ok I just installed the PSU and it is tiny!!!!!!!!

its a 3rd of the size of my old 1200w tt toughpower.

I just ran a few benchmarks and it is absolutely silent. No coil whine.  i'm very happy with it!!!!


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 24, 2018)

hat said:


> I agree. Coil whine, interference and other electrical noises like that fuck me up the wall. I can deal with the little bit of coil whine I get from my PSU, but if it were coming through my speakers I would take it 10x worse. That's just unacceptable.


Dude, no kidding. I guess it's really a little thing, but it gets to you after a while. Once I get attuned to it, it's basically over. Can't do it.

And now that I have the RX 580 in, I don't have to. And I get halfway decent graphical performance.  The GTX 1050 was the final agent in this build's conspiracy to slowly drive me insane - though compared to all of the noise I've dealt with before it thankfully wasn't that bad. I would have easily lived with it had I not happened upon a reasonably-priced RX 580.

But man... noise-prone outlet, noise-prone motherboard, chattering GPU, multiple noise-prone PSU's. In the back of my mind I've been wondering to myself if I'm just an idiot and there's just some critical thing I'm doing wrong or just not doing. But now that I've got it sorted, I wonder how many people's machines out there have this nightmare lurking beneath and it just doesn't have a chance to come out... ...it's just kind of crazy to have it that bad. A little noise, I expect. Blaring, pervasive noise, from everything, is just... ...man I don't know what to think. Years back, I don't remember it ever being like this. Audio quality wasn't as good, but the worst thing I dealt with was cell-phone interference from setting it down in the wrong spot <_<

Eh, I'll just count my blessings. Shame, this 1050 is a nice card, for what it is. I'll toss it in my other rig and use the optical out for sound to have light gaming in the living room, I guess. I was hoping to sell it after dropping in the RX 580, but it doesn't feel right to sell it knowing what's up with it.

Now I've got a decent all-rounder AND I can finally really get down to doing the main thing I wanna do with it. Holy crap. It's like having a crush on a girl for months and then one day you ask her out and she tells you she's been madly in love with you the whole time. It feels just like that. Believe me I know! 

I've been at war with about every possible source of noise for months now. Actual months! I thought it'd never end.  *phew*

Maybe it was just fate's way of telling me I needed some upgrades. I guess in the end I am a lot happier with this build now than I would've been with what I originally sought out to do. I wound up with some pretty decent stuff in the box. Decent all-rounder. Maybe more than I needed but not more than I wanted! There could always be more, hehe. *so long as it's quiet*



purecain said:


> ok I just installed the PSU and it is tiny!!!!!!!!
> 
> its a 3rd of the size of my old 1200w tt toughpower.
> 
> I just ran a few benchmarks and it is absolutely silent. No coil whine.  i'm very happy with it!!!!


Glad its working out for you! Though honestly I wasn't too worried for you. I don't think what I experienced is typical. I won't be the only one, no doubt, but that wasn't normal. In the future, I would still buy Seasonic. I really did want to be able to use them! Things just got a little too freaky. Maybe next time.


----------



## hat (Aug 24, 2018)

I found out that my power supply isn't the source of the coil whine I'm hearing. It's my 18650 charger.


----------



## purecain (Aug 24, 2018)

I used an m12 for 14yrs in one rig sold it to a friend who then used it and he sol it to another friend and Its still going strong. seasonic are the best without a doubt.
Good luck with all your hardware in the future! we all buy hardware and the excitement of building a rig is half from the hope that your hardware will be golden, and your system will be the best version of that combination of silicon. for me it is anyway... the first time you buy a cpu, gpu or memory that is golden and clocks amazingly the feeling is something else.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 25, 2018)

hat said:


> I found out that my power supply isn't the source of the coil whine I'm hearing. It's my 18650 charger.


Haha, I've had that problem with a few of mine, though the efest LUC v4 I've been using for a couple of years doesn't.

Though funnily enough, unplugging it was one of the first things I tried. I don't know why, it was just the first thing I thought to do. 



purecain said:


> I used an m12 for 14yrs in one rig sold it to a friend who then used it and he sol it to another friend and Its still going strong. seasonic are the best without a doubt.
> Good luck with all your hardware in the future! we all buy hardware and the excitement of building a rig is half from the hope that your hardware will be golden, and your system will be the best version of that combination of silicon. for me it is anyway... the first time you buy a cpu, gpu or memory that is golden and clocks amazingly the feeling is something else.


Cheers, man. I feel the same way. Nothing better than dropping something in and having it run even better than expected!


----------



## hat (Aug 25, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Haha, I've had that problem with a few of mine, though the efest LUC v4 I've been using for a couple of years doesn't.
> 
> Though funnily enough, unplugging it was one of the first things I tried. I don't know why, it was just the first thing I thought to do.



I've also heard it come from other AC/DC adapters as well. I think I used to have one that I used to charge a cell phone that did it. Since it's that though, and not my PC, it bothers me less.


----------



## Aquinus (Aug 25, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> But they could have made it so that it wasn't vulnerable to that particular interference by taking it off of USB bus power.


Does this only happen with USB audio devices? I have a Fiio E17k Alpen and while I've never had issues with the PSU making it whine (I have a Seasonic PSU,) but, I did actually have issues with which USB port I plugged it into. You mentioned that you isolated USB power from the device and it still occurred. That's weird. First of all, if power was isolated, any "noise" on the data lines would disrupt the *digital* USB signal which would cause the device to disconnect. When it comes to differential signaling, if there is an uncorrectable error, it will just fall over. It also would require one of the data lines not being balanced with the other (meaning that one of the differential pairs is getting different interference than the other because differential signaling depends on interference between the two being the same to do error correction.)

Now, with that said, if my USB audio device connects to a USB 3.0 port, for some weird reason it will produce an insane amount of static rendering it practically unusable and after days of research, it turned out to be the usage of one of the USB 3.0 ports on my board. Putting it in a USB 2.0 port or behind a USB 2.0 hub on a 3.0 port solved the issue for me. What's even more weird is that I can plug it into a USB 3.0 port on my Macbook Pro and it works, so not only was it USB 3.0, it was USB 3.0 in the context of my tower.

It also seems to be the case that many USB audio devices are sensitive to being put on a USB 3.0 port so, if this issue comes back up, I would focus on that.

FWIW, I've had my Seasonic 1000w Platinum for > 6 years and it has been rock solid and I've bought Seasonic X-series gold PSUs for several other people, none of which have had an issue with coil whine or failures but, I have definitely had issues with my USB audio device due to the controller being used or OS (not quite sure which it was.)


----------



## purecain (Aug 25, 2018)

hat said:


> I found out that my power supply isn't the source of the coil whine I'm hearing. It's my 18650 charger.


does that mean you have a home made powerbank (wall). i'm just reading the diy book that takes you through making one. I cant wait... hows your setup...?  in know its a little off topic im just interested... imagine running your pc for free. imagine what you could do with cheap electricity... ^^
btw I have some usb audio equipment, i'll be very disappointed if theres a problem. I havnt had chance to have a jam since I set up this psu but to think of it, I always had to play around with cables to get perfect silence on the line. I never thought it could be the quality of the power being fed the motherboard..


----------



## hat (Aug 25, 2018)

Nah, it's a Nitecore charger. It's the small one that only takes one battery at a time, but my devices also only use a single battery, so it's enough for me. I also use the USB port on it to charge my phone, so it eliminates the need for a charger for that.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 25, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Does this only happen with USB audio devices? I have a Fiio E17k Alpen and while I've never had issues with the PSU making it whine (I have a Seasonic PSU,) but, I did actually have issues with which USB port I plugged it into. You mentioned that you isolated USB power from the device and it still occurred. That's weird. First of all, if power was isolated, any "noise" on the data lines would disrupt the *digital* USB signal which would cause the device to disconnect. When it comes to differential signaling, if there is an uncorrectable error, it will just fall over. It also would require one of the data lines not being balanced with the other (meaning that one of the differential pairs is getting different interference than the other because differential signaling depends on interference between the two being the same to do error correction.)


Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself to assume that not running off of bus power is the same as isolating from the usb power bus. Obviously it's still used for general operation. I know the ground still comes into play, at least. Cut that, even on a signal carrying only data and what you describe happens, eventually - though the noise drops away lol. Ask me how I know 

When I say that I'm isolating from USB power, I'm meaning the device isn't powered directly by the power bus, not that it's necessarily not connected to the power bus. It's just running off of its own power supply. In all of my experiences here, every form of interference I encountered was not present in devices that natively ran on their own dedicated power supplies - the source of the noise was there, but they simply did not care.

Though interestingly enough, trying to inject a cleaner power signal via something like a Schiit Wyrd (negates power from bus and swaps for 5v from LPS) or adapters that allow you to feed dedicated power from a SMPS, the noise would still be present. Basically fully dedicated mains = no noise. Power through the USB cable itself, whether straight from bus, or through injection from dedicated power supply = noise. So if it took any kind of power through the USB port, it was noisy.

Does that make more sense? From this, I assume it's something on the ground path, internally - and only when the cable is carrying power. Only thing it could be really. Though in my case, no ground loop isolator had any effect. Seems it's something inherent to how USB carries data that allows this particular form of interference to get through.

And no it wasn't just the USB... ...mobo analog outputs were affected as well, just not nearly as much. The only output not affected at all was the toslink.



> Now, with that said, if my USB audio device connects to a USB 3.0 port, for some weird reason it will produce an insane amount of static rendering it practically unusable and after days of research, it turned out to be the usage of one of the USB 3.0 ports on my board. Putting it in a USB 2.0 port or behind a USB 2.0 hub on a 3.0 port solved the issue for me. What's even more weird is that I can plug it into a USB 3.0 port on my Macbook Pro and it works, so not only was it USB 3.0, it was USB 3.0 in the context of my tower.
> 
> It also seems to be the case that many USB audio devices are sensitive to being put on a USB 3.0 port so, if this issue comes back up, I would focus on that.


I've noticed this in the past, but in this case it wasn't static, but intense ringing.  Seems like I had a different problem. All ports were the same for me - just didn't matter. Front, rear, 2.0, 3.0, 3.1...

And now that it's fixed, I can use 3.0 or even 3.1 with no issues, though it's a 2.0 device, so I use a 2.0 port.



> FWIW, I've had my Seasonic 1000w Platinum for > 6 years and it has been rock solid and I've bought Seasonic X-series gold PSUs for several other people, none of which have had an issue with coil whine or failures but, I have definitely had issues with my USB audio device due to the controller being used or OS (not quite sure which it was.)


Haha, I believe it! On both fronts. In my case the only reason I knew it was the PSU was because the noise coming directly out of the PSU was the same as the noise coming out of my speakers! I don't think that's normal or even all that common!



purecain said:


> btw I have some usb audio equipment, i'll be very disappointed if theres a problem. I havnt had chance to have a jam since I set up this psu but to think of it, I always had to play around with cables to get perfect silence on the line. I never thought it could be the quality of the power being fed the motherboard..


If there's anything this has solidified for me, it's that USB audio sucks. In the future I'll be avoiding it any way I can. USB was never made for audio, it just kinda sorta works... ...mostly. The biggest mistake I think these companies marketing their USB-powered recording interfaces as professional equipment made was assuming that most computers are a quiet, stable source of power. Most of the noise problems I see are with USB interfaces and mics hooked up to a noisy computer. Generally they work okay, but man, when they don't...

Next time, I'm just gonna throw down and go full toslink. Biggest pain in my ass for something so simple. I thought toslink would be a hassle to setup, but at least it would've been foolproof.

In general, power is everything with audio. If the power going in has issues, they're gonna carry through. So to me it makes sense that a PSU could introduce noise into audio systems. A little suprised that it carried through digital signals, though. DACs and ADCs have no way to take interference and convert it to a digital signal 1:1. That'd be some real voodoo. I always thought noise was limited to analog because of that. Digital is supposed to be either good or dead. What happened to me is something akin to if you saw static on your HDMI display. 

*shrugs* Not much you can do except get that straightened out. Though, I'd say chances are if your PSU is running quiet right now, you'll probably be fine. Like I said, in my case there was loud, audible noise coming from the PSU as well.


----------

