# this is why corporations NEED DRM



## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

> The makers of the point-and-click adventure game Machinarium came to a realization recently. Their DRM-free game was being pirated by about 90% of players. Such is life for a game that doesn't bother users with serials or authentication. A similar rate of piracy was found for the DRM-free World of Goo. However, the folks behind Machinarium are feeling generous, and are offering people the opportunity to participate in their new pirate amnesty sale.
> 
> Until August 12th, Machinarium (and its soundtrack) will cost only $5. It usually goes for $20. The game is available for PC, Mac, and Linux. In Machinarium you play as an unassuming robot traveling through a beautifully detailed world mechanical malcontents. We grabbed this game from Steam a while back, and can testify to its quality and challenging puzzle-based gameplay.
> 
> You don't need to prove you pirated the game to join in the fun. Anyone is free to buy the game during the sale. If you like point-and-click style casual games, $5 is a reasonable price to pay. You can check out a demo of the game, and buy it here.



its so sad, to hear this . 

piracy is really killing PC-games 


if you like it, or ever pirated it please use this chance to support this dev,


EDIT: sorry forget the source maximumpc


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## pantherx12 (Aug 7, 2010)

So where's the sources for these statements?

90% seems like a ridiculous number.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 7, 2010)

The makers of world of goo used the number of different IPs that had submitted scores vs. the number of actual copies of the game that had sold, and came out to pretty close to 90%(though I think they later revised it to closer to 80%).


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## pantherx12 (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm gob-smacked people who pirated a game are stupid enough to submit scores!

That and the amount of people pirating the game : /

Small devs are the ones I'm more likely to support if anything.


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## WhiteLotus (Aug 7, 2010)

LOL. World of Goo was also distributed as a "pay however much you want game". Just how did they think that it wouldn't get pirated.


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

WhiteLotus said:


> LOL. World of Goo was also distributed as a "pay however much you want game". Just how did they think that it wouldn't get pirated.



no, they use "pay however much you want game" in their charity program

and its actually higher than 90% if you count pirated game that never submitted their score


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## BababooeyHTJ (Aug 7, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> The makers of world of goo used the number of different IPs that had submitted scores vs. the number of actual copies of the game that had sold, and came out to pretty close to 90%(though I think they later revised it to closer to 80%).



If you have a dynamic IP address?


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## WhiteLotus (Aug 7, 2010)

pay nothing =/= pirating i know but come on. It's close enough.


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## pantherx12 (Aug 7, 2010)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> If you have a dynamic IP address?



I've one of those so I imagine quite a lot of people do


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

bunch of hog wash theres no way its 90% i doubt even 80% demi god had alot of pirates playing on there server but again ppl forget a pirated copy dosent always equal a damn sale cut that number by 50 % and the piracy rate is probably closer to 30% that would  have never purchased it to begin with. That said Stardock if i remember correctly said the cost of DRM  when compares to realistic sales the DRM costs more to implement then it is to go without and let pirates do there thing if i remember correctly


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## DrPepper (Aug 7, 2010)

Well either the game is crap and not worth £20 or the percentages are wrong. I can't believe that 9 out of 10 people who play the game didn't buy it.


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## kid41212003 (Aug 7, 2010)

90% of copies that got pirated came from the Eastern countries IPs (people who averagely earn $1-10 a day).


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

agreed theres no way its that high i smell inflated #s to garner more media attention


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## IINexusII (Aug 7, 2010)

the best way of making people buy the games is when only a legit copy allows you to play online, such as modern warfare 2, source games etc. i know about all the hamachi lan hacks and stuff but cant really get the proper multiplayer experience without buying it


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> bunch of hog wash theres no way its 90% i doubt even 80% demi god had alot of pirates playing on there server but again ppl forget a pirated copy dosent always equal a damn sale cut that number by 50 % and the piracy rate is probably closer to 30% that would  have never purchased it to begin with. That said Stardock if i remember correctly said the cost of DRM  when compares to realistic sales the DRM costs more to implement then it is to go without and let pirates do there thing if i remember correctly



but the problem is we are no angle, people, will take it if it was free, especially if it easier because there are no DRM, its in our nature.

and if it can't being pirated then people will be forced to buy the game.


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## Perseid (Aug 7, 2010)

DRM won't increase anybody's sales or decrease piracy, though. Name ONE game that is currently uncracked. Maybe you can name one, maybe not. The point is that the people who want to pirate it will, and that will never be stopped. Publishers that use DRM are wasting time and money and inconveniencing those who actually do buy it, probably driving even more people to piracy with their terrible DRM(I'm looking at you, Ubisoft).


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## 3volvedcombat (Aug 7, 2010)

Thats True.

I have multiple i mean MULTIPLE people that torrent to this day. 
about 8-10 out of 10 people Torrent, Well 80% of my freinds.

Its actually a virus people, don't you dare think that prediction is bloated. Once someone is told or finds out how to torrent games- and Downloads Need for speed shift- Call of duty mod warfare 2- He will never stop.

Its a virus, Once the Player realizes that he can get games for free- He takes the advantage of it. PERIOD.

US PC gamers like finding deals on the internet on video cards and hardware, We spend all our money on our computers- have no more money left sometimes  so allot of people see torrenting as a massive deal.

Simple- Torrent = to many people a deal.
*Free games
*Play with your friends 
*Easy to crack and mod/cheat
*You can test the game if your gonna buy it. And Ussualy the testers never buy it because there skeptical and sissy's. 
*and you don't have to harp on your self to SAVE to buy a copy on steam or at best buy
*more money in the end for that GTX 470-480......

They never think of the negs.
Till you really want that game to come out- and you realize the dev studio is saying no and shit because of torrenting. 

And thats my case- Im not getting gears 2 or Halo 3 for a reason now


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Well either the game is crap and not worth £20 or the percentages are wrong. I can't believe that 9 out of 10 people who play the game didn't buy it.



 so if YOU think the game is crap, is it really worth to be pirated ? game is another form of art so its definitely a matter of taste


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## Frick (Aug 7, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Well either the game is crap and not worth £20 or the percentages are wrong. I can't believe that 9 out of 10 people who play the game didn't buy it.



I certinly do. Pretty much everyone I know who listens to music, watch movies and play games don't pay for anything (except WoW). Ever. AND they bash you for paying for things. Comments like "I can't believe people still buy software/media/whatever" are extremely commeon around here, especially with the people below 30.


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## DrPepper (Aug 7, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> so if YOU think the game is crap, is it really worth to be pirated ? game is another form of art so its definitely a matter of taste



Take for example if MW2 was £500 I would most certainly not buy it however I would want to play it. See where the next step would be ?



Frick said:


> I certinly do. Pretty much everyone I know who listens to music, watch movies and play games don't pay for anything (except WoW). Ever. AND they bash you for paying for things. Comments like "I can't believe people still buy software/media/whatever" are extremely commeon around here, especially with the people below 30.



Right well 90% of people don't pirate other DRM free games like Sins of a Solar Empire ? or massively popular games like MW2, BFBC2 etc.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 7, 2010)

BababooeyHTJ said:


> If you have a dynamic IP address?



They address this in the article.  There were two things that would make the piracy numbers lower:


some people install the game on more than one machine 
most people have dynamic IP addresses that change from time to time

There were also two things that would make the piracy numbers higher:


more than one installation behind the same router/firewall (would be common in an office environment) 
not everyone opts to have their scores submitted

They assumed that these would kind of be a wash, but even if they aren't, and the numbers are slightly better, saying 75% probably isn't a stretch, IMO.




WhiteLotus said:


> pay nothing =/= pirating i know but come on. It's close enough.



This was before the "Pay what you want" and the pay what you want copies are considered legit, so if anything the pay what you want campaign would have lowered piracy numbers.



crazyeyesreaper said:


> bunch of hog wash theres no way its 90% i doubt even 80% demi god had alot of pirates playing on there server but again ppl forget a pirated copy dosent always equal a damn sale cut that number by 50 % and the piracy rate is probably closer to 30% that would  have never purchased it to begin with. That said Stardock if i remember correctly said the cost of DRM  when compares to realistic sales the DRM costs more to implement then it is to go without and let pirates do there thing if i remember correctly



The fact that the not every pirated copies would equal a sale has nothing to do with piracy rates.  If they aren't going to buy a copy, they shouldn't have a copy.



DrPepper said:


> Well either the game is crap and not worth £20 or the percentages are wrong. I can't believe that 9 out of 10 people who play the game didn't buy it.



I pirated, I played it, I beat it, I didn't pay a dime, and neither did the 20 some friends I gave it to.  I eventually did buy it when they did the Pay What You Want sale, but I know none of my friends did.  If it is available free, even if it is worth the money, people will generally always take the free option.


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## shevanel (Aug 7, 2010)

If you like P.C. mushrooms then this game is a must have for a list of things "to do" whilst trippin'.


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Take for example if MW2 was £500 I would most certainly not buy it however I would want to play it. See where the next step would be ?
> 
> 
> 
> Right well 90% of people don't pirate other DRM free games like Sins of a Solar Empire ? or massively popular games like MW2, BFBC2 etc.



hey, no one forced to pay $500 for MW2, 

so if you can't buy it don't play it, this kind of mentality thats really destroy PC games


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## DrPepper (Aug 7, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> hey, no one forced to pay $500 for MW2,
> 
> so if you can't buy it don't play it, this kind of mentality thats really destroy PC games



Okay lets break this down

IF (hypothetically) mw2 cost £500 would you buy it ? 

No

Would you want to play it ? 

Yes

The answer is why people pirate.


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Okay lets break this down
> 
> IF (hypothetically) mw2 cost £500 would you buy it ?
> 
> ...



thats why its a loss sales for them, IF you REALY want to PLAY it people WILL FORCED to SAVE their money to BUY it (if MW2 can't be cracked).  thats why they think more intrusive DRM = Better sales.



newtekie1 said:


> The fact that the not every pirated copies would equal a sale has nothing to do with piracy rates.  If they aren't going to buy a copy, they shouldn't have a copy.
> 
> 
> 
> I pirated, I played it, I beat it, I didn't pay a dime, and neither did the 20 some friends I gave it to.  I eventually did buy it when they did the Pay What You Want sale, but I know none of my friends did.  If it is available free, even if it is worth the money, people will generally always take the free option.



yups just like i said earlier we are no angel and we will trying to get it FREE if we can


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

true enough newtekie but then again whats next DRM DOSENT work so what now? last i knew codemasters wanted to sell there games broken at full retail price and then have ppl PAY to have it fixed and for content that should be there to be added aka multiplayer u have to buy it extra cars buy it extra tracks buy it extra music buy it basically making you pay retail then buy everything in the game a second time to curb piracy 

  as stated torrenting may be like a virus but douchebaggery is also a vrius just as much as greed etc. About the time im forced to buy an RPG at $60 then pay $30 for patches then $30 for expansions DLC etc to experience the full game. so i spend $120 for what should cost $50-60 at that point gaming loses all worth most games cost $60 there 6 hrs long and there play it once trade it in. That time to cost ratio id be better off to just go buy movies and watch them instead better value overall.

 piracy might be high but as a business they want to make money. As such the numbers they give are skewed for there own tune. But im not gonna argue the point here as it serves no purpose 

fact is gaming is changing and its getting to the point its to expensive for the enjoyment you get.

piracy is not my main concern mine is the ppl who DO buy the game then hack constantly to look better and always win hey look i paid $60 for this game or paid 6 months subscription but instead of playing ill cheat hack and bot cause i suck lol developers have more then piracy to worry about. If they want ppl to pay the sums of money there trying to get from us


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## shevanel (Aug 7, 2010)

Speeding is fun illegal, people will still do it.

Drugs are fun illegal, people will still use them.

Pirated games are free illegal but people will still play them.

Get over it.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

^ yup i wonder how many ppl here are bitching about game piracy here but are currently smoking a little wacky weed here in the states 

i miss the days of gaming i once enjoyed 

buy game at $49  year later buy expansion pack for $29 paid $70 got a full game dedicated servers mods etc 

now its

buy game at $59 buy DLC content at $15-20 a pop x 3- 6 times for all content =$120+ removed mod support removed dedicated servers or shut down servers completely remove game features from previous games dont bother with patches or proper support tell me why am i paying double the money for shittier service?

example of support problems.... Saboteur on PC dosent run properly on ANY ati cards EA disbanded the entire development team so a good game is dead with no patch YET you can still pay retail price on it? yea fuck the companies if they cant get there shit together ppl wont support them

another example Battlefield Bad Company 2 uses a broken patcher that same patcher will be on all current and future battlefield games so the issues found with BC2 will be present in all up coming BF games again a sign of cost cutting that just hurts the end users there developers posted about it themselves http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/...g-file-formats-build-processes-packaging.html

do i support developers i like damn right i do they treat me right give me a full game ill buy it and glady buy it again but if companies want to release shitty drm that just pisses me off of keeps me from playing it kinda dosent do them any favors does it?

examples of GOOD support

just about every Star Dock game

The Witcher (gave first buyers the EE patch to get all the extras etc along with extra content)


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## DrPepper (Aug 7, 2010)

Exactly my point if they lowered the price for it more people will buy it.


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> ^ yup i wonder how many ppl here are bitching about game piracy here but are currently smoking a little wacky weed here in the states
> 
> i miss the days of gaming i once enjoyed
> 
> ...



yups, i miss that too, thats why i never buy MW2, but still it doesn't justified you to pirate the game.

but luckily EA getting right with their BF:BC2, so i don't really miss MW2 thats much


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## KainXS (Aug 7, 2010)

lol i bought world of goo and never played it, this post reminded me

no matter what it costs people will still pirate it just cause they can, and crackers will still crack because its challenging and because they want rep for doing it.

and all it takes is one time for a person who usually buys games to do it, once they do it they do it more and more and more, just like crack, 

then a company makes DRM then a person that would usually buy the game doesn't because of the drm and they do the above, it only takes one time

forget it, theirs nothing that can be done.


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## Nosada (Aug 7, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> but the problem is we are no angle, people, will take it if it was free, especially if it easier because there are no DRM, its in our nature.
> 
> and if it can't being pirated then people will be forced to buy the game.



While that's exactly what the companies want us to believe, it's also complete and utter bullshit.

Plenty of people pay for things because they feel they're paying a fair price, not because they've been forced by the "almighty" DRM. I could easily have downloaded and cracked every game on my steam/impulse lists, I didn't. I could have modded my x360 quite easily and downloaded 10 times more games than I own now, yet I didn't. I currently own over 100 games on steam alone, half of which I'll probably never play but bought solely to support the dev.

The same goes for the pirate who downloads every game he plays. DRM hasn't ever forced him to buy a game because there hasn't been a DRM capable of stopping hackers for more than a few days/weeks. I know several people who pirate quite a few games. If they hadn't pirated them, they would NOT have bought them, since they can't even afford to upgrade their 5 year old systems.

Long story short, DRM does little more than annoy legit buyers, has never stopped a pirate and certainly has never "forced" anyone to buy a game before. There are plenty of very successful games without DRM to prove this.


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## BababooeyHTJ (Aug 7, 2010)

So using a Dynamic IP or more than one machine makes you a pirate.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> yups, i miss that too, thats why i never buy MW2, but still it doesn't justified you to pirate the game.
> 
> but luckily EA getting right with their BF:BC2, so i don't really miss MW2 thats much



i didnt pirate those games

my point is if you want ppl to buy what you create offer a fair price and a GOOD product a good product sells itself  

example

say i went and buy Assassins Creed 2 for PC

install the game with DRM etc  jump in the game 10mins later ill be kicked from the game i just paid god damn good money for and why because my internet had a hiccup that causes me to lose all progress. lets not forget that the same company had settlers 7 out and low and behold 150,000 ppl paid retail at either $59 for the game and guess what they couldnt play it for the first 3 months the game was released because the servers that authenticate the DRM were broken thats my point ^  If im gonna buy a game it better be damn good it better have good support and i shouldnt be the one taking a DRM dildo in the ass every 5 mins so they can please there stockholders.  Im also not going to pay $15 for say a map pack on a FPS that comes with only 2 new maps and 2 more maps from a game they paid 2 years before so im paying them again for something i have access to already.   Consoles now employ tactics where they shut down online servers to force you to buy the next game so u can play online with friends.   Again i realize there a corporation they want to make money. But how far do they have to go before ppl wake up and smell the roses? that are really dog shit wrapped in a paper bag.

Ill use this example Again i Bought The Witcher day 1 it was released played it beat it got 45hrs of gameplay out of it i was happy with my purchase THEN about a year after that they released the Enhanced Edition and instead of shafting me they just had me register to there website use my cd key and i get access to all that nice new content. I was impressed by that so much i bought a few more copies to give to friends for xmass.

now i get to buy an RPG spend $120 or so and get the same 45hrs of gameplay yet now i cant have mods or user created content etc i get lesser value at higher cost = why i have to pass up on alot of good games. It dosent surprise me the games i play most are 7-10years old or more..

Baldurs Gate 2 Shadows of Amn

Shogun Total War

Rome Total War

those 3 games have kept gaming alive for me for a long time a good product will keep ppl around i know right now i need to buy a new copy of Rome as DISC 1 is so old and scratched i cant install it and ill gladly go pay for it again considering how much gameplay i got out of that game. A good product will make a company money just Developers these days realize there pushing out rehashed garbage and riding the Hype wagon for sales. When that train crashes headlong into another im going to laugh.

another fail game Splinter Cell conviction using the retarded DRM it still ran okay but a 9800gt ran the game better then a 5970 now for a AAA titles thats pretty frigging bad and at $60 for 3hrs of game play yea and ppl wonder why piracy is oh so bad   dosent take a genius to figure out ppl are tired of being treated like shit. When you buy a car the dealer ship dosent tell you what streets you can drive on what radio station you can listen to and what position your seat can be in.  the example applies 100% in this situation.


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## kurosagi01 (Aug 7, 2010)

They need to lower the cost of there Call of duty games,overprice piece of crap i am seeing right now,i mean come on..£40 for the game on steam then £11 for a DLC??
Can get cheaper elsewhere on PC but come on..


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## Frick (Aug 7, 2010)

shevanel said:


> Speeding is fun illegal, people will still do it.
> 
> Drugs are fun illegal, people will still use them.
> 
> ...



Robbing old ladies is fun illegal, people still do it.

Having sex with 13 year olds feels good is illegal, people do it.

Raping babies is awesome crazy illegal, people still do it.

Get over it.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 7, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> my point is if you want ppl to buy what you create offer a fair price and a GOOD product a good product sells itself



Obviously not, you can give all the hypothetical situations you want, but it has been proven in the real world not to be true.  World of Goo is one of the most highly critically acclaimed games released in recent years, it is fun and entertaining, and they sold it for just $20, and it was pirated to shit.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

meh im just gonna drop out of this  and ive never played or have any interest at all in World of Goo


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## AltecV1 (Aug 7, 2010)

i will gladly buy games if some one gives me the money but with a pay check of 5600 EEK ($ 470 or € 355) i just manage to bay my bills and all the money left goes to food(if i were a rich bastard like some people here i would buy the games ,but if you dont have money there is just one option "PIRATING"


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## pantherx12 (Aug 7, 2010)

By the by guys, I for one never heard of world of goo other than on forums, could be that that the consumer base for small dev groups could be more tech saavy types perhaps?


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## wahdangun (Aug 7, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> i didnt pirate those games
> 
> my point is if you want ppl to buy what you create offer a fair price and a GOOD product a good product sells itself
> 
> ...




i didn't said you pirate it, but its really rare to see a person like you. and i don't crazy intrusive DRM like asasin creed II, so if you don't like it, simply don't support it or even play it and vote with your wallet,




pantherx12 said:


> By the by guys, I for one never heard of world of goo other than on forums, could be that that the consumer base for small dev groups could be more tech saavy types perhaps?




because its indie games, and doesn't have billion of dollar for marketing purpose and ads


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 7, 2010)

problem is voting with your wallet dosent work because for every person that can understand the issue theres 100 morons that dont and buy it anyway only to get frustrated later and by that time its to late


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## zehpavora (Aug 7, 2010)

Hello people.

I suppose I could show you my point of view, since I'm not from US, where technology is way cheaper than here in Brasil.

I am a gamer. Not a hardcore one, but still... What happens is, people in US CAN find good games for about 40 bucks, PC, and consoles.

In here, however, the cheaper you can go is about 51 dollars. And that's for PC games. Consoles go as "low" as 70 bucks each. Expansion packs for PCs are usually 30 bucks.

You may be thinking that it's not THAT bad, but when you look at our economy level, in general, you'll see that most people make about 580 dollars a month, they buy crappy PCs for about 560 dollars, which usually a low core2duo, 1 GB RAM and a 256MB video Card, DX9.

Things here ARE expensive, so 99% of people in Brasil go for Pirate. So do I. Why? Well, my gaming rig cost me about 2000 dollars. In here, it would be about 5700 dollars. The exact same rig.

Pirating is bad for everyone, because developers get less money to supposedly make new/better games (activision get less money to make worse DRM). However, even if they DRM stuff, someone will get it down so Pirates can pillage.

I'm just showing how things are here. Hell, when PS2 was still alive, I was the only one I knew that wasn't buying pirate games for it. EVERYONE had, at least, 40 games, all "free", but me. I still have "all" of my 3~4 [original] games.

People with DSes get those R4 things so they can download the ROMs and play on the actual Hardware, people create emulators for arcades (MAME...) to play those machine games and don't waste money on them... And so on.

I believe the only way to stop piracy is to stop:
1- The whole Internet;
2- Gaming Industry;
3- The whole creative process of the human mind.

I can't remember who said that, but it was an important philosopher. He kinda said that most of our inventions are "bad" copies of someone else's idea. So "piracy" itself is as old as one can remember.

That's my contribution. I hope I wasn't offensive and made clear all my intentions in this post.

Also, I'm subscribing to this thread. I wanna see where it goes!

Thanks.


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## wahdangun (Aug 8, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> problem is voting with your wallet dosent work because for every person that can understand the issue theres 100 morons that dont and buy it anyway only to get frustrated later and by that time its to late



so true, but what else we can do? and pirating the game won't help either


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 8, 2010)

theres nothing that CAN be done its why this debate never ends with ppl with many opinions hasnt anyone gotten the point yet

how ppl feel about DRM the game industry at large is the same as the old adage "Opinions are like assholes everyone has them" meaning it dosent matter whats done or how ppl react because its a problem that never will be solved fixed or taken care of same as even today theres crime in every nation of the world u cant stop it only control delay or slow the issue as much as possible. But at the end of the day the problem wont go away its still going to be there when u got to bed at night and it will still be there when u wake up.


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## shevanel (Aug 8, 2010)

Frick said:


> Robbing old ladies is fun illegal, people still do it.
> 
> Having sex with 13 year olds feels good is illegal, people do it.
> 
> ...



Whoa.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Aug 8, 2010)

This whole thing is idiotic. Sony rootkit based DRM has been proving to cost more money than it saves for publishers. What these idiots did wrong was to not even try ANY protection. No cd key? That's been the flood gate for most piracy as long as games have existed. Friends share games with no keys, that's just a golden rule of gaming going back over a decade. That's why everyone I knew had oblivion on every shitty rig and laptop they owned, it never asked for a key.


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## DannibusX (Aug 8, 2010)

As long as software exists, there will be pirates.  As long as DRM exists, there will be those that crack it.  Buying and playing games is a moral decision.

I just happen to have good morals.


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## hat (Aug 8, 2010)

I've never even heard of this game before...


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2010)

> The makers of the point-and-click adventure game Machinarium came to a realization recently. Their DRM-free game was being pirated by about 90% of players.


That's how many pirate any given game, no matter if there's DRM or not.  The titles that are exceptionally good and worth buying at $40+ at most see that figure drop to 70%.  At $5, they could convert a lot of those pirates into profit--but only those that are inclined to buy it in the first place (which won't be many because side scrolling puzzle games aren't very appealing to most).

Remember, there's almost 200 countries in the world accounting for almost 7 billion people.  Less than a billion people have the means to buy expensive entertainment software and only a fraction of those people are interested in any given game.


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## TIGR (Aug 8, 2010)

A 90% rate of pirating for a product with no protection is not surprising. It makes sense to think that the ease of pirating impacts the rate of pirating. Most people in the know will agree that there is no such thing as impossible-to-pirate digital products, but there are some which make pirating difficult to the point where most people won't bother. Conversely, products which make pirating easy will garner more of a "why pay for it when it's so easy to get it free?" response.

Every company making these products has to try and find a balance they can live with, between the resources they put into DRM and the rate of pirating they are willing to accept.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2010)

I just finished the demo and I might buy it but only if it is still DRM free (so I can burn it for long term storage).  It's relatively fun and I'm always one to support DRM free titles.  I probably wouldn't pay $20 for it but $5 is definitely fair.


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## pantherx12 (Aug 8, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> because its indie games, and doesn't have billion of dollar for marketing purpose and ads





Yes, I thought that was kind of implied by my statement to be honest.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2010)

Hell, I went ahead and bought it (impulsive buy FTW!).  Windows download is 346 MiB (executable file), Mac download is 348 MiB (DMG file),  Linux download is 343 MiB (tar.gz file), and the Soundtrack is 128 MiB (ZIP file).


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## Wile E (Aug 8, 2010)

Get a better browser.

And I have no problem with keys and even disc checks, but intrusive DRM needs to go. It only makes the legit customers suffer. It does nothing to effect the pirates.


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## Completely Bonkers (Aug 8, 2010)

> The makers of the point-and-click adventure game Machinarium came to a realization recently. Their DRM-free game was being pirated by about 90% of players. Such is life for a game that doesn't bother users with serials or authentication. A similar rate of piracy was found for the DRM-free World of Goo. However, *the folks behind Machinarium are feeling generous*, and are offering people the opportunity to participate in their new pirate amnesty sale.
> 
> *Until August 12th, Machinarium (and its soundtrack) will cost only $5. It usually goes for $20. *The game is available for PC, Mac, and Linux. In Machinarium you play as an unassuming robot traveling through *a beautifully detailed world mechanical malcontents*. We grabbed this game from Steam a while back, a*nd can testify to its quality and challenging puzzle-based gameplay*.
> 
> You don't need to prove you pirated the game to join in the fun. Anyone is free to buy the game during the sale. If you like point-and-click style casual games, *$5 is a reasonable price to pay*. *You can check out a demo of the game, and buy it here xxx*.



CHEAP MARKETING PLOY.

1./ Unique IP addresses, as we all know, is an entirely false and disingenuous way of measuring unique users. I bet if they used "playername" then the pirate % is much much much lower.
2./ The "quote" is spending way too much time just plugging and endorsing the game - clearly just marketing copy
3./ I just played the game. $5 is the right price for this "bargain bin game". At $20 it is a complete rip-off
4./ Oh, just a few days for the discounted price? Oh my so generous. Bullsharks. They have just created a time limit on the viral marketing to see if it works.

IMO this thread should be closed and the original link removed. Pure commercial sales and marketing activity on TPU. Against the house rules.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Hell, I went ahead and bought it (impulsive buy FTW!).  Windows download is 346 MiB (executable file), Mac download is 348 MiB (DMG file),  Linux download is 343 MiB (tar.gz file), and the Soundtrack is 128 MiB (ZIP file).


WTH Ford?! You just fell for their viral marketing.  Big guy like you! Really! Did you feel you were doing them a favour? Feel sorry for them just a bit. Did they play on your good nature and charitable personality? This is viral-leechery at its worst.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2010)

$5 for a decent DRM-free game, can't complain. Better than pirating it.


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## wahdangun (Aug 8, 2010)

Completely Bonkers said:


> CHEAP MARKETING PLOY.
> 
> 1./ Unique IP addresses, as we all know, is an entirely false and disingenuous way of measuring unique users. I bet if they used "playername" then the pirate % is much much much lower.
> 2./ The "quote" is spending way too much time just plugging and endorsing the game - clearly just marketing copy
> ...



1. what if the pirater don't submit their score, or if it from office computer ? it will be higher

2. so what, i'm just feel sorry for the dev team, because it's must be hard to develop a game and seeing their game pirated to shit.

3. hmm if you feel rip-off, then don't ever bother it, no one forced you to buy it, its indie developer, they won't have crazy detail like crysis

4. so what, they don't have billion of dollar like activision to promote their game


so please don't talk with your ass, i'm NOT their marketing team, IF you DON'T like it DON'T bother it,  games is like art, its matter of taste so get over it, no one forced you to buy the game, after all it is indie games so what do  you expect.


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## WhiteLotus (Aug 8, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> 1. what if the pirater don't submit their score, or if it from office computer ? it will be higher
> 
> 2. so what, i'm just feel sorry for the dev team, because it's must be hard to develop a game and seeing their game pirated to shit.
> 
> ...



OR, 

Devs need to make better games so that the ones that did pay for it don't feel ripped off with a half assed, half finished, bug ridden game.


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## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Aug 8, 2010)

Thats sad.. machinarium really looks like a cool game


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## newtekie1 (Aug 8, 2010)

TIGR said:


> A 90% rate of pirating for a product with no protection is not surprising. It makes sense to think that the ease of pirating impacts the rate of pirating. Most people in the know will agree that there is no such thing as impossible-to-pirate digital products, but there are some which make pirating difficult to the point where most people won't bother. Conversely, products which make pirating easy will garner more of a "why pay for it when it's so easy to get it free?" response.
> 
> Every company making these products has to try and find a balance they can live with, between the resources they put into DRM and the rate of pirating they are willing to accept.



Exactly, piracy rates among "casual" pirates are much higher with DRM free games.  Think of the number of people that bought and downloaded World of Goo or Machinarium, then gave it to everyone at the office?  Why is that likely?  Because these are pretty easy timewaster games that pretty much any PC can play, including crap office PCs.  So now every PC in the office has a pirated version except for the one person that bought it originally.  Would this have happened if there was even basic activation based DRM on the game?  No, probably not.  Now would everyone in the office run out and buy a copy?  Also probably a no.  Would one or two?  Maybe...

So out of that 90% that pirated the game, _maybe_, 10% would have bought the game if they couldn't have easily pirated the game.  Does that mean DRM is needed?  Well that is up to the company making the game, is the cost related to the DRM less than the revenue that is going to be generated by that 10% that buy the game?  Obviously Indie Games doesn't think so, but others do.  I don't have financial statements infront of me, I don't know costs of implementing DRM, so unless you do have that information you can't make that informed decision.


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## Perseid (Aug 8, 2010)

Also, to pirate an indie/casual game is maybe 100MB. To pirate a full-size game can be 10+ GB.


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## lemode (Aug 8, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Well either the game is crap and not worth £20 or the percentages are wrong. I can't believe that 9 out of 10 people who play the game didn't buy it.



Machinarium was not crap. The flash programming that went into it, the artist who laid out the visuals, and the producer who made its soundtrack made that game worth its costs. People are just retarded irl (and online more) so they freely distribute everything online. Pieces of shit.


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## entropy13 (Aug 8, 2010)

pantherx12 said:


> I've one of those so I imagine quite a lot of people do



Indeed, there would have been 3 more "pirates" over the weekend already if I downloaded World of Goo and Machinarium. But those 3 would be all me. 


Anyone still remember how much Command & Conquer: Red Alert retailed at launch (it was one of my first PC games I played, along with ATF: Gold)? Wasn't it considered one of the best RTS of the 90s? Wasn't it one of the games that propelled Westwood Studios to "greater heights"?


And I'm just wary of "piracy" stats though. Don't forget that the losses due to piracy are worth more than the whole world economy!


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## devguy (Aug 8, 2010)

IMHO, DRM is actually pretty important, but companies have gone waaay overboard in their implementations of it.  A lot of DRM nowadays is very obtrusive.  For example, for GTA:IV, I have to be logged into like 3 different services (Steam is one in my case) just to play the game OFFLINE.  That is pretty ridiculous.

I believe DRM should just be enough to keep honest people honest.  The solution to piracy is cheaper games.  To be honest, most PC games I've purchased I've gotten for under $20 (I wait a few months after release).  The only exception was BC2 (I bought the limited edition recently for $30), but I definitely feel the price was worth it.  However, with games like MW2 that launch at $60 and hold their MSRP, it is no wonder at all that it is a target for piracy.  I don't particularly care for the game, but at that price, I would definitely pirate the game over buying it legitimately.  

Game companies need to keep in mind that 10 sales at $20 a piece is much better than 2 sales at $60 and 8 sales at $0.  Just as a question, how many of you would buy Crysis 2 if it launched at $20?  Now, how many of you would buy it at $50 (possibly $60)?  I would definitely buy it at $20, but if it came out higher, I'd probably wait until it dropped under $30 to pick it up.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2010)

I already beat it.  It's a $5 game. XD


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## Perseid (Aug 8, 2010)

Don't forget, too, that used game sales are as bad as piracy now, so say the publishers! I always said that was the real reason for a lot of this DRM(Spore, to be specific), and now it looks like I was right with companies charging extra for new online keys.


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## Mr McC (Aug 8, 2010)

Amazing game.

Sad to see people pirate it, if they can afford it, but we need no more DRM, it doesn't prevent piracy, was never intended to, and piracy figures in no way equate to lost sales.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 8, 2010)

theres always people on both sides of the fence so these topics are pretty much useless overall. That said the way publishers act is slowly pushing me out of gaming when it drives me out for good fit will be a sad day


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## AphexDreamer (Aug 8, 2010)

So What... If a total of 10 people downloaded it 9 of them got it illegal, the game probably didn't sell that will to begin with. $5 finally seems like the appropriate price for this game, they should have asked $5 for it from the beginning.

Soundtrack was worth more than the game in my opinion that stuff is gold.


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## RejZoR (Aug 8, 2010)

The thing is, ppl are lazy as hell. With some checking of deals in internet stores and old stocks of games in retail stores, you can get really good games for funny low prices. I've filled my Steam account with loads of games, mostly indie (including World of Goo) this way. For a cost of less than two MW2 games (~80 EUR), i have around 30 fully legal games. Out of which, some are pretty khm high budget stuff. Flatout 3, Red Faction 3, Left 4 Dead 2, Max Payne 1 & 2, Serious Sam HD TFE & TSE, Titan Quest, Devil May Cry and Burnout Paradise. And a shitload of indie games like Shatter, World of Goo, Winterbottom, Sol Survivor, Defense Grid, Osmos, Eufloria, Trine, Max and the Magic Marker etc etc. I also found few really damn good games in retail stores for 5€ and for 9,99€. Like UT3, Unreal Anthology, Age of Mythology + Expansion, The Settlers 10th Anniversary. Yes, they are older games but i like playing older games. They are still fun and they always run super fast in full detail.

And legally bought games certanly give you nice warm and fuzzy feeling. That's why i hate DRM in them, because they only make my gaming harder. While pirates aren't bothered with it much.
So if guys that made Machinarium think adding DRM will improve anything, they are greatly mistaken. It will only piss off those who bought it, pirates won't be bothered by it much.
So, have no efect on pirates anyway or piss of the remaining base of your actual buyers? I think the answer is clear. However i also do agree that ppl have to start thinking a bit different.
Because most are willing to spend up to 80 EUR on friday night for coctails and beer, but they can't speend 5 or 10 EUR for a game that will probably give you more fun moments than just one evening.


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## wahdangun (Aug 8, 2010)

i think DRM is important but not intrusive, just like CD check or steam based DRM (but you can still play the game offline and not like ubisoft crap DRM).

and i think major publisher slowly reallies it just look at EA, bhatesda, stradock, except for ubisoft i think


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2010)

AphexDreamer said:


> So What... If a total of 10 people downloaded it 9 of them got it illegal, the game probably didn't sell that will to begin with. $5 finally seems like the appropriate price for this game, they should have asked $5 for it from the beginning.
> 
> Soundtrack was worth more than the game in my opinion that stuff is gold.


Agreed.  9/10 games are pirated because 9/10 games have the MSRP set too high.  Seriously, the people that set the prices need to go back to high school economic class and relearn price vs. demand curves.  If you set the price insanely high, there's very little demand.  Set it low, and you get tons of demand.  Pirates only appear on price charts when the price is $0.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out which price will get a reasonable number of conversions from pirates and still yeild a significant profit.  Amanita Design is being smart and testing that theory with their $5 price.


The only way I can think of that they could be using for tracking piracy on Machinarium is downloads on the server.  The downloads obtained through a purchase account are considered legal and downloads obtained without an account are considered illegal.  Truth be told, no publisher to date knows exactly how many pirated copies are being played and how many legit copies are being played.  They are always educated guesses.


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## JC316 (Aug 8, 2010)

Some of the people in this thread make me sick. Games come out with insane DRM, people bitch and moan about it, but when there is NO DRM, those same people say "Oh well they should have known better".

It's up to the manufacturer to set the price, if you can't afford it, then you don't play it. You don't go to a car lot, tell them where the price should be set and if they don't agree, then you steal it.


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## Perseid (Aug 8, 2010)

JC316 said:


> You don't go to a car lot, tell them where the price should be set and if they don't agree, then you steal it.



I see that analogy a lot, and it doesn't work. If I could download a car, I would. So would a lot of people.


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## KainXS (Aug 8, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Agreed.  9/10 games are pirated because 9/10 games have the MSRP set too high.  Seriously, the people that set the prices need to go back to high school economic class and relearn price vs. demand curves.  If you set the price insanely high, there's very little demand.  Set it low, and you get tons of demand.  Pirates only appear on price charts when the price is $0.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out which price will get a reasonable number of conversions from pirates and still yeild a significant profit.  Amanita Design is being smart and testing that theory with their $5 price.
> 
> 
> The only way I can think of that they could be using for tracking piracy on Machinarium is downloads on the server.  The downloads obtained through a purchase account are considered legal and downloads obtained without an account are considered illegal.  Truth be told, no publisher to date knows exactly how many pirated copies are being played and how many legit copies are being played.  They are always educated guesses.



gotta agree with that,


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## AphexDreamer (Aug 8, 2010)

JC316 said:


> Some of the people in this thread make me sick. Games come out with insane DRM, people bitch and moan about it, but when there is NO DRM, those same people say "Oh well they should have known better".
> 
> It's up to the manufacturer to set the price, if you can't afford it, then you don't play it. You don't go to a car lot, tell them where the price should be set and if they don't agree, then you steal it.



But thats what makes the digital world far more interesting. 

Instead of them robbing you with the prices they set, people can finally get back at them to make them  reconsider their prices. Not everyone pirates and those that do just might help out those that don't by having them lower their prices (With Machinarium being a perfect example of all this). its like a new form of indirect negotiation of the prices. Those that pirate anyways only pirate because they can't afford the game. Whether or not they pirate it or not, they were most likely never going to get the game to begin with.


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## Completely Bonkers (Aug 8, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> so please don't talk with your ass, i'm NOT their marketing team, IF you DON'T like it DON'T bother it,  games is like art, its matter of taste so get over it, no one forced you to buy the game...



Ah, but you have, unwittingly, become part of their marketing team. That's viral marketing. Nothing to be ashamed of, viral marketing is not bad _per se_, but you should be aware of when you have become part of the machine 

And please don't go throwing personal insults around. It's not cool. :shadedshu


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## DrPepper (Aug 8, 2010)

JC316 said:


> Some of the people in this thread make me sick. Games come out with insane DRM, people bitch and moan about it, but when there is NO DRM, those same people say "Oh well they should have known better".
> 
> It's up to the manufacturer to set the price, if you can't afford it, then you don't play it. You don't go to a car lot, tell them where the price should be set and if they don't agree, then you steal it.



Yeah but if you could steal a car and get away with it without anyone knowing ever 100% you would.


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## theonedub (Aug 8, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Yeah but if you could steal a car and get away with it without anyone knowing ever 100% you would.



I wouldn't go making assumptions like that. Some people believe stealing is BS even if you don't get caught or punished, I think they call that having character.

My personal opinion? Fuck thieves.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 8, 2010)

theonedub said:


> I wouldn't go making assumptions like that. Some people believe stealing is BS even if you don't get caught or punished, I think they call that having character.
> 
> My personal opinion? Fuck thieves.



+1 i wouldnt even if i knew id get away with it. thats someone elses. they worked hard. and even if they didnt if i steal it the guy that made it gets paid less. so the corp makes up the loss. just how it works. i dont have a family. that guy might. i dont want to be the reason he cant feed his kids. while im trying to scrounge up change for 93 octane.

theives are punks and should have their fingers taken off with sheers.


adrenaline rushes though? like riding a plane crash if i knew i wouldnt get hurt? or jumping off a mountain? damn straight i would.


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## JC316 (Aug 8, 2010)

Perseid said:


> I see that analogy a lot, and it doesn't work. If I could download a car, I would. So would a lot of people.


Not that hard to steal a car really. You just cant bear the idea of being so close to the owner and not hiding behind a keyboard.



DrPepper said:


> Yeah but if you could steal a car and get away with it without anyone knowing ever 100% you would.


Absolutely not. I don't care if there is no chance of being caught, I refuse to steal something. 



theonedub said:


> I wouldn't go making assumptions like that. Some people believe stealing is BS even if you don't get caught or punished, I think they call that having character.
> 
> My personal opinion? Fuck thieves.



+1


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## DrPepper (Aug 8, 2010)

If you can get something for free you would take it. 

If it's free it's for me was the saying we all had in the RN.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 8, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> If you can get something for free you would take it.
> 
> If it's free it's for me was the saying we all had in the RN.



i agree to an extent but this post is different than what you said. if someone offered me a free sandwich? ya id take it. i love sandwiches. 

would i STEAL?

no


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## DrPepper (Aug 8, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> i agree to an extent but this post is different than what you said. if someone offered me a free sandwich? ya id take it. i love sandwiches.
> 
> would i STEAL?
> 
> no



I wouldn't go out and actively steal from people but if I saw a car sitting in the middle of the desert abandoned I'd probably take it. I'd report it lost to the police but I wouldn't think twice about it. 

Would you buy something made by essentially slave workers ? 

Would you accept an organ donation by someone who had no choice ?


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## Solaris17 (Aug 8, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> I wouldn't go out and actively steal from people but if I saw a car sitting in the middle of the desert abandoned I'd probably take it. I'd report it lost to the police but I wouldn't think twice about it.
> 
> Would you buy something made by essentially slave workers ?
> 
> Would you accept an organ donation by someone who had no choice ?




thats just making up situations to make it convineint

why would a car in the middle of the desert have an owner? it probably wouldnt run their probably wouldnt be cops.

would i buy a product made my salve workers?

Dont we all? yes i would. 

would i accept the organ? obviously. that situation is fixed. if they are forced to give it up im probably in a position were im forced to take it. though i kinda dont understand how that would ever be a realistic situation with organs.

EDIT: However neither train of thought applies to this thread though the concept comes down to morals which is what we are discussing you dont need to dig this deep its really simple. if you dont have the $$ for the game you dont play. dont steal just dont play. gaming isnt a necessity MW2 is not oxygen. you do NOT NEED games.


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## erocker (Aug 8, 2010)

If any product is being sold, regardless of price and you steal it, it's stealing. You're a thief. Digital, physical, doesn't matter, it's all very simple. Just because it's easy for you to sit at your computer and take it doesn't make it any more right than going into a store and putting something in your pocket without paying for it. So for those who "feel bad" that they are labeled as thieves, too bad. You are a thief. There needs to be consequences for people's actions, then maybe people will think twice before pirating (stealing) stuff. Think prices are too high? Would you be willing to pay a fine or go to jail for your cause? I doubt it. I know if someone came to my business, got their car fixed, then felt the price was too high (even though they would know the price beforehand) and took off without paying? The cops would be at their door and they would be prosecuted.


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## lemode (Aug 8, 2010)

erocker said:


> If any product is being sold, regardless of price and you steal it, it's stealing. You're a thief. Digital, physical, doesn't matter, it's all very simple. Just because it's easy for you to sit at your computer and take it doesn't make it any more right than going into a store and putting something in your pocket without paying for it. So for those who "feel bad" that they are labeled as thieves, too bad. You are a thief. There needs to be consequences for people's actions, then maybe people will think twice before pirating (stealing) stuff. Think prices are too high? Would you be willing to pay a fine or go to jail for your cause? I doubt it.



Yeah exactly…in the end you would have been better off just buying whatever it is you’re steeling.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 8, 2010)

well depends on the fine if i steal a candy bar the repricussions are not nearly as bad as the .99c song that i could be fined $100,000-1,000,000 for lol but i agree with the point erocker still just change the fact that drm fails  and that at the end of the day voting with your wallet dosent work either. But its besides the point this has been debated in way to many topics and as a thread it had some relevance but at this point id like to request a thread lock simply because is a vicious circle that dosent end


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## DrPepper (Aug 8, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> thats just making up situations to make it convineint
> 
> why would a car in the middle of the desert have an owner? it probably wouldnt run their probably wouldnt be cops.
> 
> ...



Alright I'm probably coming across as a dick to everyone. I'm just being devils advocate for the record.


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## erocker (Aug 8, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> well depends on the fine if i steal a candy bar the repricussions are not nearly as bad as the .99c song that i could be fined $100,000-1,000,000 for lol but i agree with the point erocker



Size doesn't matter. The people who make the candy bar still have to take a loss and the more people do it, the more it adds up. They are the ones who suffer the consequences. Trying to justify or balance out the consequences for yourself stealing makes no difference. Stealing is stealing.



DrPepper said:


> Alright I'm probably coming across as a dick to everyone. I'm just being devils advocate for the record.



Devil's advocate indeed. No moral value, only thinking about one's self and no regard for the victim (seller of product). Makes sense... for a devil's advocate, not you personally.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 8, 2010)

which is why i agreed with you im just pointing out some of the issues here when a company can pursue you in a court of law and make more money then legitly selling a product nothing more.

eitherway i still request a thread lock as this wont go anywhere and everyone here knows it i dont see  the point in making the thread ever longer with the same points ive seen in 20+ threads already


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## Solaris17 (Aug 9, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Alright I'm probably coming across as a dick to everyone. I'm just being devils advocate for the record.



your fine it was a good argument i dont think less of you. we were getting pretty o/t though


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 9, 2010)

also when your own government illegally cracks a companies software and uses it it dosent really set a good precedent either. especially when said company takes them to court and your government declares Sovereign Immunity so they cant be pursued just another little tid bit to throw in there. When the government cannot be held accountable for the same actions its citizens are expected to adhere to. Things are not as black and white in the world as we may seem to think when it comes to a moral compass


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> also when your own government illegally cracks a companies software and uses it it dosent really set a good precedent either. especially when said company takes them to court and your government declares Sovereign Immunity so they cant be pursued just another little tid bit to throw in there. When the government cannot be held accountable for the same actions its citizens are expected to adhere to. Things are not as black and white in the world as we may seem to think when it comes to a moral compass



I actually think things are pretty black and white in this regard. Just because one does it, whether they be an individual, group or government doesn't make it right. It is stealing. Every choice is a personal choice.

By the way, everyone should pick Machinarium up for the five bucks. It's just a point and click game, but it's brilliant and very creative. Great art direction and the puzzles make you think. Support these people that make these games, give them money for their work so they can support their families and continue to make games we enjoy. 

I know some people think that when they pirate a game they are hurting these corporate douchebags but that simply doesn't happen. They hurt the worker, the designer, the artist. These are the people who suffer when their product gets stolen, the corporate leaders always get theirs. Remember.. Buhdda says: "To hurt another is to hurt yourself". It's true, and it's not just some religious mumbo-jumbo, it's good common sense.

@crazyeye, my whole post isn't directed at you, just the ideas.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 9, 2010)

im just stating a point erocker if the force thats expected to uphold the law is exempt from it thats a big hole that shouldnt exist especially when are government paid millions of $$ to have the software cracked just so they wouldnt have to pay to for another license for it. Stealing is wrong yes but at the end of the day the same government that upholds the law and in its court where a person would be charged and sentenced is exempt from those laws is a giant BS situation. And we all know that that said for $5 ppl should by the game if its something they like the looks of. $5 is a fucking subway footlong  hell i spend more on shit paper to wipe after that sandwich so theres no excuse to not buy it at that price

i know erocker im just saying if the big brother is allowed to do it how can u expect the citizens to not see it that way as well. especially when the money i pay in taxes funded that software cracking which cost more then it would have to just buy the software from the company to begin with its mind numbingly stupid. i agree with you entirely on some posts. Im just making it clear  You cant tell someone else to act one way and then you do something else and have them not call you on it


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## DrPepper (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> By the way, everyone should pick Machinarium up for the five bucks. It's just a point and click game, but it's brilliant and very creative. Great art direction and the puzzles make you think. Support these people that make these games, give them money for their work so they can support their families and continue to make games we enjoy.



Is it on steam ?


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## DannibusX (Aug 9, 2010)

Thieves are thieves.  I played the Machinarium Demo, I enjoyed it and I proceeded to separate myself from the 5 bucks it was on sale for on Steam.  I do the same for any game I can.

If a game doesn't have a demo, I'll wait for friends to play it, or reviews to come out.  I don't need to steal anything.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

You can get it here:

http://machinarium.net/demo/

There's even a little demo to get you started.


Buy it!!!


I'm seriously thinking about starting some sort of "Gamers against Pirates" organization. I can't think of one that currently exists, and awareness should be spread... which sounds like hippie lameness but it's true!


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 9, 2010)

while your at it form an orginization that tells game devs to stop being idiots and expecting $60 for 3 hrs of gameplay  thats just bollocks with the drm that gets tossed on top and with optimizations that make a 5970 unable to run it at even 20fps at 800x600 but a 9800gt maxes it more  stuff like that shouldnt be allowed in the first place

if gamefly did PC games i bet piracy would die down some as well... id gladly pay $20 a month to just rent PC games lol

seriously the more i think about it the more i believe in the future that a PC rental service will be a must  wish i had the cash to somehow make it work id be rich.

but yea biggest issue i see with games and piracy is just the shit that gets pushed out the door

Sabotuer on PC ati gpus were not even supported properly game would freeze and crash last i knew it was never fixed

Empire Total War for almost 6 months the main campaign game would just corrupt your save and that was it you couldnt actually beat the campaign

Splinter Cell Conviction 3hr game $60 price tag 5970 runs the game worse at 800x600 then a 9800gt does at 1920x1200 low settings vs high

list goes on ^ games like the above dont help the situation when AAA titles are pushed out to soon if i dislike a console game i can trade it in get some cash back up where i am PC game sucks your stuck with it also dosent help. 

then companies like EA want to start charging for fucking DEMOS yea you get the idea its gotten to where greed is so bad ppl have had enough you can only whip your customer so much before they get pissed and do what they shouldnt granted this dosent cover all pirates far from it but it dose shed a bit more light on the situation i can easily see both sides and i do agree with both on different things pirating a game thats $20 is bull shit but i can see a person dilemma when a game is $60 dosent run properly dosent have proper support is only 3 hrs long and to wait for a price drop u gotta wait 3 years but oh wait even then some titles are over $40 to this day after nearly 4 years of being out. Things like that i do believe contribute to the over all problem

i care about some games and companies in general but publishers have stolen the creativity and love that some developers had for there games, You can see it in the quality of the games themselves in there fan base etc


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## DrPepper (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> You can get it here:
> 
> http://machinarium.net/demo/
> 
> ...



Probably a good idea.


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## Benetanegia (Aug 9, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> The makers of world of goo used the number of different IPs that had submitted scores vs. the number of actual copies of the game that had sold, and came out to pretty close to 90%(though I think they later revised it to closer to 80%).



I don't want to read the thread as I'm not interested in just another "piracy is killing PC gaming" excuse that uses false or simply wrong numbers, but I just have one question: is that *really* the measurement? IPs against sales numbers? Let's see, :shadedshu these are casual games and people play these games in the mall, train, cafes (I know that I've done this a couple times and I'm not that kind of casual gamer)... Many places with free wifi access. I do even know a pair of friends who don't have internet at home and go to such places for internet access. 

/sarcasm mode on

1 copy multiple IPs... Oh yeah! It must be rampant piracy, it can't be anything else.  The fact that casual games seem to be the most pirated ones, according to developer's own statistics MUST be coincidence too, absolutely. Piracy is to blame, because, you know, the boom of netbook sales and casual games has nothing to do with anything. In fact, people buy netbooks and small laptops because they want to use them in thier home, with their unique and only one IP and playing the apparently so wrongly called "casual" games for hours. In the end, that's what netbooks were created for: hardcore PC gaming at home, playing casual games...

/sarcasm mode off


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## streetfighter 2 (Aug 9, 2010)

I didn't pirate it, but for $5 I bought it.

In case anyone cares:
http://musicbusinessresearch.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/paper-felix-oberholzer-gee.pdf
http://www.demos.co.uk/files/DemosMusicsurvey.ppt
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf
http://www.eff.org/files/eff-unintended-consequences-12-years.pdf


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## BumbleBee (Aug 9, 2010)

> As a case study, Wardell released sales statistics of Stardock's latest products as proof that the market for hardcore PC games can be a profitable one.
> 
> Galactic Civilizations II
> 
> ...



source


Galactic Civilizations II was a sleeper hit and won a couple awards. Sins of a Solar Empire was a blockbuster and won multiple GOTY awards. neither game has any copy protection at all and only requires you to enter a serial number if you want to update or patch either game.

Stardock and Gas Powered Games put together this "Gamers Bill of Rights" 

source.

i'll quote some parts of it.



> No. 8: "Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers." Obnoxious copy protection methods punish honest, paying gamers.


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## BababooeyHTJ (Aug 9, 2010)

BumbleBee said:


> source
> 
> 
> Galactic Civilizations II was a sleeper hit and won a couple awards. Sins of a Solar Empire was a blockbuster and won multiple GOTY awards. neither game has any copy protection at all and only requires you to enter a serial number if you want to update or patch either game.
> ...



This is another reason that I'll be buying Elemental.

I don't understand these troll threads about pirates. I would love to know where these stats come from. I would also love to know just how many console games get pirated. I would be willing to bet that it's more than just a few.


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## RejZoR (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, they will certainly lose lots of gamers with DRM. I mean the ones who would pay otherwise.
I haven't bought a single Ubisoft game after the Far Cry. Well, Prince of Persia Trilogy, but that was for PS2 (which is also not modded and has all the original games). I also refuse to buy any game that has DRM additionally too Steam client itself. That's just not acceptable.
Made few exceptions like Red Alert 3 and Dead Space. But i still hate the limit of installs.

However i do like the way they use activation DRM in BioShock. It was limited with installs for the time after the launch. For a few months. After that they raised the limit to unlimited.
So, you can re-install it as many times as you like, but you have to activate it each time as well.
But i forgive them that, ust because i don't have to live in fear of losing activations and ending up with a dud game. Like i did with many EA games like Crysis Warhead, Red Alert 3 and Spore.
I also never minded serials as part of protection or having CD/DVD in the drive. It's all better than having retarded super limited activations or god forbid constant on protections like that crap from Ubisoft. They guy who decided to use that should be castrated with a rusty spoon to prevent spreading idiocy to their kids... and ppl even buy that kind of garbage. I wouldn't buy it even if the game was a perfect 100% or a 100/100 rated by game reviewers.


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## Wile E (Aug 9, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> while your at it form an orginization that tells game devs to stop being idiots and expecting $60 for 3 hrs of gameplay  thats just bollocks with the drm that gets tossed on top and with optimizations that make a 5970 unable to run it at even 20fps at 800x600 but a 9800gt maxes it more  stuff like that shouldnt be allowed in the first place
> 
> if gamefly did PC games i bet piracy would die down some as well... id gladly pay $20 a month to just rent PC games lol
> 
> ...


PC rentals would rock. Pay a nominal fee to rent it for a short time, if you like it, buy it, if not let it expire. Steam could pull it off.


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## wahdangun (Aug 9, 2010)

i think this thread was important to educate people that piracy is bad and to promote  DRM-free-indie-games.

and i agree with erocker the answer for piracy is to educate people and teach that piracy is bad, so the DRM won't be cost effective again to secure their profit.

but in the mean time DRM is still important for combat casual pirate so they can't easy copy their game and give it to their friend

and if someone can't afford it they can chose another game or can wait for that game to drop price or have amazing deal (and btw steam really rocks )

but if someone doesn't like DRM they can chose another publisher like stardock, indie games, so  i think everyone have a choice

chose with your wallet even thought you think is useless.


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## lemode (Aug 9, 2010)

Internet piracy effects more than just software...lets not forget that.

The music industry was crippled by all you flamer pirates who are too cheap to spend money supporting artists you love to listen to. YOU’RE the reason ‘that’ inde band you’re into, or hip hop group/duo broke up. 

I can’t stand piracy at all


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## mdsx1950 (Aug 9, 2010)

Piracy sure is killing the PC gaming industry but people in certain countries who are unable to afford the game go for the pirated game and you can't really blame them. Some countries don't even offer original games, they just sell a copy of a pirated game for like $1.50 or $2. 

Just 10% of the pirating community get the pirated game because the game has DRM. The rest of the 90% either can't afford it, or unable to buy it(availability) or they are just download the game just because its free.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

People will discuss/argue about this until the end of time, but there is no gray area here.
If something is offered for free, and you take it for free, you are not stealing.
If something is not offered for free, and you take it for free, you are stealing.
You can try to justify it anyway you want, but in the end if you are obtaining a product and not paying for it when it requires a payment to attain ... you are stealing.


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## shevanel (Aug 9, 2010)

Over on the medicinal marijuana forum there is a similar discussion regarding people smoking up with a script and your average american pothead that has done a few months in jail over $5 worth of weed.


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## zehpavora (Aug 9, 2010)

mdsx1950 said:


> Piracy sure is killing the PC gaming industry but people in certain countries who are unable to afford the game go for the pirated game and you can't really blame them. Some countries don't even offer original games, they just sell a copy of a pirated game for like $1.50 or $2.
> 
> Just 10% of the pirating community get the pirated game because the game has DRM. The rest of the 90% either can't afford it, or unable to buy it(availability) or they are just download the game just because its free.



Piracy is not the PC-Gaming Killer. Why? It's really simple, actually.

You see, Brasil was one of the countries that pirated the PS2 the most. It was really easy, to tell the truth. You just had to insert a computer chip on it and burn games on the DVD.

The Xbox, the 360, and the GameCube... Heck, even the Wii are now being squashed by piracy. In fact, it's easier to pirate consoles than the PC here, because the PC requires good hardware, and consoles are a package deal, if you know what I mean.

The PS3 is the only exception, since nobody here wants to spend a lot on a blu-ray burner and download giant files and wait hours to burn. It's just not "cost-effective".

Of course, I'm giving a vision of someone outside the US. You got to remember that US doesn't pirate that much when compared to the rest of the world.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> problem is voting with your wallet dosent work because for every person that can understand the issue theres 100 morons that dont and buy it anyway only to get frustrated later and by that time its to late


It also doesn't work because then companies will just blame piracy for their bad sales.

The problem is the companies either do not understand free market economics, or they know their business model doesn't work and would just prefer to keep up the scapegoat as an excuse to introduce harsher laws, restricting the freedoms of consumers, in order to grab more power for themselves.

The issue is simple: a product is worth what people are willing to pay for it. Not what you want people to pay for it. That's how free market economics works.

And that's exactly what's happening. Overall, people are paying as much money as people generally think the products are worth.
That happens to be less money than the companies want people to pay.

And in fact, if you picked a person at random, added up the cost of what pirated material they have would have cost if they bought it, it would probably be significantly more than they could even afford to pay.

Also, when people use the label 'stealing' to describe piracy, the first thing to understand that they are playing on an ambiguous definition.

Firstly, one needs to understand there is a difference between a label and a concept.
There are two concepts here:
* Taking something such that it goes missing from somebody else's possession
* Making a copy of something without permission

Some people prefer to define 'stealing' in such a way that both of those things fall under it.
I think that the definition of 'stealing' is irrelevant, since the two concepts are different whether or not they fall under the same label.

Quite simply, 'piracy' applies to the second concept only. It cannot be equated to the first concept, even if you put them both under the same label.

piracy is making a copy without permission. It does not mean something is going missing from somebody else's possession, which is what people attempt to imply when they arbitrarily define the word 'stealing' to mean both those concepts.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

> And in fact, if you picked a person at random, added up the cost of what pirated material they have would have cost if they bought it, it would probably be significantly more than they could even afford to pay.



Exactly. People who cannot afford the luxuries they want in life feel that they are somehow entitled to them and resort to stealing them.
That is a complete and total loss of any type of ethics.


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## mdsx1950 (Aug 9, 2010)

zehpavora said:


> Piracy is not the PC-Gaming Killer. Why? It's really simple, actually.
> 
> You see, Brasil was one of the countries that pirated the PS2 the most. It was really easy, to tell the truth. You just had to insert a computer chip on it and burn games on the DVD.
> 
> ...



I get what your saying. I know that there are so many XBOX 360 and Wii pirated games.



> You got to remember that US doesn't pirate that much when compared to the rest of the world.



I know that.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Exactly. People who cannot afford the luxuries they want in life feel that they are somehow entitled to them and resort to stealing them.
> That is a complete and total loss of any type of ethics.


See my edit: the label 'stealing' is ambiguous in this context.
Piracy is not the same thing as taking something such that it goes missing from somebody else's posession. Whether the label 'stealing' encompasses piracy is irrelevant, since it is a different concept altogether.

So the next thing to address is the ethical issue.
People like to argue that it's irresponsible to pay companies - which implies that they are necessarily entitled to what they try to charge. Obviously many people disagree. In fact the free market disagrees.

If you try to argue with the free market on what you think your product is worth, you will lose to the free market.

And yet instead of changing their business model to be more compatible with the free market, they are trying to change the free market to be compatible with their broken business model - Things simply do not work that way.


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## Binge (Aug 9, 2010)

Whoa, I just checked out the OP's linked game.  It sucks and has no place in today's market, and there's no incentive for the player to return to the publisher and buy more games/content.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> See my edit: the label 'stealing' is ambiguous in this context.
> Piracy is not the same thing as taking something such that it goes missing from somebody else's posession. Whether the label 'stealing' encompasses piracy is irrelevant, since it is a different concept altogether.



Stealing is never ambiguous. Whether the product is easily duplicated (digital content) or something tangible (like a car), if you take it without paying for it ... you stole it.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Stealing is never ambiguous. Whether the product is easily duplicated (digital content) or something tangible (like a car), if you take it without paying for it ... you stole it.


Do you understand that there is a difference between a label and a concept?
The label is only used for communication. The important thing is the concept behind it.

If so, do you understand that there is a difference between removing something from another's posession, and making a copy of it? two distinct concepts

If so, you will be forced to agree that the label 'stealing' is ambiguous if you define it as encompassing both those concepts.

If you define it as meaning removing something from another's possession only, then it is not ambiguous. But then it doesn't apply to piracy.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Of course I understand the concept, Apok, and the label stealing applies to both.
If I write a program and I feel that it is worth $150, and I hold all the rights to the content of that program, and I demand that you pay for the use of my program, then you are obligated to pay me for my time and effort.
At that point you have three choices. Buy it, don't buy it or steal it.

If you steal (pirate) it you have not stolen anything from my possession, but what you have done is stolen my ability to profit from my own hard work by using my software without paying for it. Still stealing.

If my work is what I do to support my family, to keep them fed, clothed and a roof over their head, then you have not just stolen from me.


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## vbx (Aug 9, 2010)

Perseid said:


> DName ONE game that is currently uncracked.



Cities XL


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> Do you understand that there is a difference between a label and a concept?
> The label is only used for communication. The important thing is the concept behind it.
> 
> If so, do you understand that there is a difference between removing something from another's posession, and making a copy of it? two distinct concepts
> ...



Sorry, you're wrong. Making a copy of something digital without paying for it is stealing. Every disc that is sold of a game is a copy.


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## wahdangun (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> See my edit: the label 'stealing' is ambiguous in this context.
> Piracy is not the same thing as taking something such that it goes missing from somebody else's posession. Whether the label 'stealing' encompasses piracy is irrelevant, since it is a different concept altogether.
> 
> So the next thing to address is the ethical issue.
> ...



with piracy, you remove someone else profit
you remove their dream to make better game
you remove their chance to be succeed
and importantly you remove their passion to make games


sure if it big publisher, it will have less impact but with indie games it will be devastating, but right now thanks to steam, they can combat piracy.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Of course I understand the concept, Apok, and the label stealing applies to both.


Then it is ambiguous.



Kreij said:


> If I write a program and I feel that it is worth $150, and I hold all the rights to the content of that program, and I demand that you pay for the use of my program, then you are obligated to pay me for my time and effort.
> At that point you have three choices. Buy it, don't buy it or steal it.


If you define 'stealing' to mean 'making an unauthorised copy', it is just a subcategory of 'don't buy it'.
It's also not the same thing as 'making something go missing from your posession'

And if people don't buy it, it almost always means they don't think $150 is worth paying for it.
If you continue to charge $150 when the free market isn't paying that, you can't blame the free market.



Kreij said:


> If you steal (pirate) it you have not stolen anything from my possession, but what you have done is stolen my ability to profit from my own hard work by using my software without paying for it. Still stealing.
> 
> If my work is what I do to support my family, to keep them fed, clothed and a roof over their head, then you have not just stolen from me.


You're making the assumption that piracy prevents you from making a profit, when in fact it is the symptom; not the cause.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

In a free market where people have things like morality when it comes to stealing, the free market is determined by how many buy the game, not how many steal it. This is why there needs to be consequences for thieves. You are not entitled to the game just because you cannot afford it. I'd love a Ferrari, but I cannot afford one. Just because I want to drive it doesn't make me entitled to do so or give me the authority to steal one.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Do you think it's morally justified to charge people more money than a product is worth and complain when people don't pay you?

Also, again with the label of 'stealing'. If you are going to use that label with both concepts mentioned, you should at least differentiate between them.

i think it is not morally wrong to make an unauthorised copy when:
* you are not making something go missing from their possession
* they are trying to charge you more that it's worth

With labels such as 'stealing' ambiguous therefore irrelevant.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Not only do I understand how free markets work, how supply and demand effect pricing and how overpriced items do not sell well and it is up to the seller to reset the price points if they want to increase sales, but I also understand that when a person has to argue about the semantics of what defines stealing, then it is a discussion not worth persuing.

As I said, you can justfy anyway you want ... but it is still stealing.

Let me give you a hypothetical situation ...

You plant a rose in the garden in front of your home.
After laboring dilligently, the rose turns out to be the finest rose the world has ever seen.
You photograph the rose, and people line up to buy your photographs. News channels pay you for interviews.
One night someone sneaks in and takes their own picture to enjoy, even though you spent a great deal of money and time to grow the rose.
Stealing? or not? If not stealing, then what would you call it?


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> Do you think it's morally justified to charge people more money than a product is worth and complain when people don't pay you?
> 
> Also, again with the label of 'stealing'. If you are going to use that label with both concepts mentioned, you should at least differentiate between them.



No, I don't think that overcharging is a good idea or very moral, however it is not stealing, it's overcharging. Like I said no one is entitled to a product (especially in entertainment). I know the difference between theft or otherwise. There is no justification for theft. If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. That's how a free market works and there is no room for thieves. If you take something that isn't yours without paying digitally or physically it's theft. It's very simple to understand.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Not only do I understand how free markets work, how supply and demand effect pricing and how overpriced items do not sell well and it is up to the seller to reset the price points if they want to increase sales, but I also understand that when a person has to argue about the semantics of what defines stealing, then it is a discussion not worth persuing.


What I'm doing is exactly the opposite of semantics.
Semantics is taking advantage of an ambiguous definition ignoring the concepts.
I'm considering the concepts relevant and not the labels.



Kreij said:


> You plant a rose in the garden in front of your home.
> After laboring dilligently, the rose turns out to be the finest rose the world has ever seen.
> You photograph the rose, and people line up to buy your photographs. News channels pay you for interviews.
> One night someone sneaks in and takes their own picture to enjoy, even though you spent a great deal of money and time to grow the rose.
> Stealing? or not? If not stealing, then what would you call it?


whether the label 'stealing' applies is irrelevant.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Ummm ... then we are in agreement? 
The concept of stealing is pretty straight forward. You have attained something that is not rightfully yours through a manner other than that which is intended for you to attain it without proper compensation to the person selling it.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Ummm ... then we are in agreement?
> The concept of stealing is pretty straight forward.


'stealing' is a label. There are two concepts here which some people consider 'stealing' to apply to.


Kreij said:


> You have attained something that is not rightfully yours through a manner other than that which is intended for you to attain it without proper compensation to the person selling it.


That's as opposed to paying more than a product is worth.

The solution is simple: lower the prices and people will pay for it.
Instead, companies want to extort people for more money than they are entitled to by arbitrarily keeping costs high. And then they complain when it doesn't work.


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## Benetanegia (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Of course I understand the concept, Apok, and the label stealing applies to both.
> If I write a program and I feel that it is worth $150, and I hold all the rights to the content of that program, and I demand that you pay for the use of my program, then you are obligated to pay me for my time and effort.
> At that point you have three choices. Buy it, don't buy it or steal it.
> 
> ...



No, you are not getting it Kreij. You said:

"If you steal (pirate) it you have not stolen anything from my possession, but what you have done is stolen my ability to profit from my own hard work by using my software without paying for it. Still stealing."

Whoever pirated your software *was not going to buy it*, because in 90% of the cases, that person was not able to pay for it anyway, most of the rest is just people not sure enough about the product to pay $50* (which in most cases would result in a no-sale). Only a tiny fraction of pirated copies comes from people who can and would have bought the product, not even enough to improve sales in any significant way.

Most pirates come from poor countries, what a game costs is sometimes twice their monthly pay. They have not stolen anything from you in any of the contexts of the term stealing. You still have your ability to profit from your work from those who were going to pay for it in the first place. Fact: piracy is much lower in developed countries.

Apok is even going a step further when introducing concepts of free market, like real demand for the product and how much people really want to pay for the product. Of the people that pirated your game, how many people would have bought it? No need to elucubrate, the answer was found by that developer (whose name I don't remember), that discovered that from every 1000 pirates they brought down with DRM only 1 more copies of their game was sold. And that is the truth. How many people would take the Zune if it was free? Many. How many actually bought it?

* The crappy demos (and I'm falling short saying crappy) that take literally 2 minutes to finish off, don't help either. They are absurdingly short, they usually represent the best and always the only great moment in the game and they usually fail to impress. No time to get the dinamics of the game, or to feel the atmosphere (in the weird case there's one at all) or get caught up by the story (same)...


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

I agree with you Apok, and I have to admit I am enjoying the discussion 

It is the sellers option to charge whatever they want for their product, it is the buyers option to purchase it or not. Either way it does not justify obtaining it in an illegal manner.

If you think that it is immoral or unethical for the company to charge a certain price for a product, it does not relieve you of your moral or ethical obligation not to steal it.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 9, 2010)

meh its all a wash the world isnt perfect piracy wont be stopped same as hackers glitchers in games will never be stopped seen it in mmos mostly they pay enough money there bullshit gets overlooked the way i see it these is i just dont care none of todays games even come close in terms of creativity to what once was. Id rather see publishers removed completely with developers working with there own form of steam hell remove steam entirely if all developers worked together there wouldnt NEED to be a cost for using the service. when u think about it most of the bullshit and prices are pushed by Publishers its Publishers that cry about piracy most.

give me gamefly for PC at a structured service type say $10 a month u get 2 game rentals at a time $20 you get 4 with both offering an option to buy the game at a lower price using a digital service.  Piracy will remain rampant till companies let go of the OLD way of doing buisness untill then this is a no win debate. and while i like Steam steam also has conflicts with alot of mods for games which is the only gripe i have. but modding is dying as publishers scramble to squash it. 

Eitherway again situation is a wash

i also have to agree with Benetanegia  case in point EA wants to CHARGE us $$ to play demos you can say piracy is bad till your blue in the face and i agree it IS bad but then again when companies feel entitles to tell you exactly where when and how you can use a product the product is no longer a product and is no longer worth its cost.  if i want to get shafted for $60 im pretty sure i can find a woman on a corner who would take care of that for the same cost  (note that is an example people) Ill gladly pay for a good game examples anything from stardock really and while bethesda dosent impress me with there games there modder friendly attitude keeps me paying full price for there games. The fact you can BYPASS the copy protection on fallout 3 is a nice touch as well (turn off auto run) explore the disc click the exe and it will install the game without securom. (another example)

fact is a good game will sell but if you want ppl to buy dont insult them example of this  sabotuer on PC with ati gpus = dosent run   splinter cell conviction ati 5970 at 800x600 all low runs worse then a 9800gt at 1920x1200 max settings.  if you systematically shovel shit out the door you can expect ppl to not want to buy your games and demos these days and benchmarks dont show REAL gameplay or performance and we all know that. sadly untill publishers learn to shut the fuck up and let developers FINISH there games we wont see any real progress on this issue im still pissed at Creative Assembly for Empire total war 6 god damn months before i could play that game after i bought it. Then they release Napolean as a full game with all the features of Empire fixed and want me to pay $60 no way in hell companies that do that can get bent. When you buy there stuff when they do that its giving them a green light to rape you but for every 1 person that knows that theres 100 that buy it anyway.   oh well world keeps turning and its just the same shit different day.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> I agree with you Apok, and I have to admit I am enjoying the discussion
> 
> It is the sellers option to charge whatever they want for their product, it is the buyers option to purchase it or not. Either way it does not justify obtaining it in an illegal manner.


I think it does.


Kreij said:


> If you think that it is immoral or unethical for the company to charge a certain price for a product, it does not relieve you of your moral or ethical obligation not to steal it.


I don't think piracy in general is immoral.
Also, I disagree with the use of the word 'steal' here given that it is ambiguous.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> I think it does.
> I don't think piracy in general is immoral.
> Also, I disagree with the use of the word 'steal' here given that it is ambiguous.



Well, that's just you then. I find what you do unethical and immoral. Stealing, thievery, piracy are all the same. Now if we were talking about necessities like food or water that is a different story. There are needs and there are wants. You do not need (games for example) yet you "pirate" them. That is stealing. You don't deserve the game, you didn't make the game, you're just giving these companies more justification to screw over the people who do pay for the games. If people didn't pirate and just chose not to purchase, we would see prices drop. But unfortunately many people out there feel that they are entitled to steal things that are too expensive for them to buy. Sad.

Anyways, I look forward to the day that dealing with pirates is out of the publisher's hands and into the hands of law enforcement so things can get accomplished.


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## niko084 (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> I'd love a Ferrari, but I cannot afford one. Just because I want to drive it doesn't make me entitled to do so or give me the authority to steal one.



That's kinda the whole problem, people don't even look at it the same way and for good reason really..

Sure you wouldn't go steal a Ferrari, but if you could download one, install an ignition hack and go for a drive, you might have a very different story. 

On that note, I highly doubt they have 90% piracy, it could be between 10%-90% they have nearly no real way of knowing and some countries don't have laws against piracy.

It's a gray area subject, I can feel for the companies losing millions of dollars, but they are also making half rate games with really annoying protection that commonly causes a lot of issues, provide poor support and charge outrageous amounts for these games. Everybody wants to do 100 hours of work and profit a billion dollars and equally everybody wants everything for free.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Benet said:
			
		

> Most pirates come from poor countries, what a game costs is sometimes twice their monthly pay. They have not stolen anything from you in any of the contexts of the term stealing. You still have your ability to profit from your work from those who were going to pay for it in the first place. Fact: piracy is much lower in developed countries.



I understand this, my friend, that is why any seller of any product has to set the price point of their product in line with the economics of the regions they are selling in.
To most people, it seems unfair that you can get a product for a lower cost in another part of the world, but that is free market economy at it's best. The adjustment for cost of living and the medium wage of a country has to play a part in the market strategy (and pricing) of a product. This is what drives free markets.

Each manufacturer has to recoup their investment into their product. If they do not, they will soon be no more. As the demand on the product subsides, the price will come down in order to to try to bolster sales before end of life on the product.

Let's say that the average wage of someone in the UK is 500 a week, and the average income of someone in indonesia is 5 a week. If I sell my product for 50 in the US and for 50 cents in Indonesia, the people are still spending the same percentage of their income for my product.

This is why most products are launched in the countries that have higher income levels first. You can begin to recover your investment and when the market saturates, you can push the product to countries where incomes are less. Unfortunately, when it comes to software and games, people cannot wait and they pirate stuff.

There is no easy solution. But I still cannot condone, not have seen and valid justification, for pirating.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> Well, that's just you then. I find what you do unethical and immoral.


And I don't think your reasons are valid.


erocker said:


> Stealing, thievery, piracy are all the same.


Then they aren't very useful words.


erocker said:


> Now if we were talking about necessities like food or water that is a different story. There are needs and there are wants. You do not need (games for example) yet you "pirate" them.


Companies do not need to charge more than their product is worth.


erocker said:


> That is stealing.


It is making an unauthorised copy, which is different to removing something from their posession.


erocker said:


> You don't deserve the game


A moral judgement; the reasons for which I think are invalid.


erocker said:


> you didn't make the game


They didn't earn the money they are trying to charge.


erocker said:


> you're just giving these companies more justification to screw over the people who do pay for the games.


They'll find one irrespective. Anything to avoid addressing the root cause (cost).
All there companies think about is getting money from people.


erocker said:


> If people didn't pirate and just chose not to purchase, we would see prices drop.


No we wouldn't.


erocker said:


> But unfortunately many people out there feel that they are entitled to steal things that are too expensive for them to buy. Sad.


If they're too expensive for people to buy then how can they claim they're losing money?


niko084 said:


> That's kinda the whole problem, people don't even look at it the same way and for good reason really..
> 
> Sure you wouldn't go steal a Ferrari, but if you could download one, install an ignition hack and go for a drive, you might have a very different story.


I wouldn't steal a ferrari.
But i would consider making a copy of one if it didn't cost anything/much to do.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

So why is morality invalid? If it is invalid just because you say so, then there's nothing further to discuss. You didn't earn the game you're pirating. It makes you no better than those overcharging. It's just a matter of opinion between right and wrong, in which case I think you are wrong and you think I'm wrong. I'll agree to disagree with you. I hold myself to certain standards and values, you do not and that is fine with me. We are all individuals and have different thought processes. If you feel like stealing is okay since you call it something else, well good luck to you.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> So why is morality invalid? If it is invalid just because you say so, then there's nothing further to discuss. It's just a matter of opinion between right and wrong, in which case I think you are wrong and you think I'm wrong. I'll agree to disagree with you.


I don't think your justifications for your moral standpoint make sense.

Is it:
* the idea that companies are entitled to our money?
* the idea that nobody should be allowed to make a copy of something even if the companies are not losing any money from you doing so?


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> I don't think your justifications for your moral standpoint make sense.
> 
> Is it:
> * the idea that companies are entitled to our money?
> * the idea that nobody should be allowed to make a copy of something even if the companies are not losing any money from you doing so?



No, the companies are not entitled to our money. If I don't want the game or if it is overpriced, they won't get my money and I won't get thier game.

No, because in my opinion, making a copy of a game that is sold in retail is stealing regardless of anyone making money on it or not.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Is it on steam ?


Yes, but it costs $20 and of course requires Steam which is DRM in itself.  If you buy directly from the source, it's $5 and you download the installer (no DRM, period).

FYI, the Demo is flash and the full game is Flash.  Maximum resolution of both is 1024x768 which is pretty damn low.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> No, the companies are not entitled to our money.
> 
> No, because in my opinion, making a copy of a game that is sold in retail is stealing regardless of anyone making money on it or not.


I don't think your use of the word 'stealing' allows the argument to make sense, given that there are two different concepts here, and only one of them applies:

of the two concepts:
* making an unauthorized copy
* removing item from someone's possession

it's the first one only.
And of course, it is unauthorised because the person is not agreeing with the condition of paying what the company is charging.
In nearly all cases, the person would be willing to pay a lower amount, but doesn't have that option.


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## trickson (Aug 9, 2010)

I get pissed off hearing about all this piracy I have never done this and will never do it ! Buy it like a a normal person will you ?. This is why we as PC gamers suffer ! 
I have a message for all pirates of games ! 

STOP IT NOW !!!


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## BababooeyHTJ (Aug 9, 2010)

mdsx1950 said:


> Piracy sure is killing the PC gaming industry but people in certain countries who are unable to afford the game go for the pirated game and you can't really blame them. Some countries don't even offer original games, they just sell a copy of a pirated game for like $1.50 or $2.
> 
> Just 10% of the pirating community get the pirated game because the game has DRM. The rest of the 90% either can't afford it, or unable to buy it(availability) or they are just download the game just because its free.



By that logic you haven't really lost a single sale.

You might want to look into Ubisoft or EA's financials. PC gaming makes them a good amount of money. The PC segment is comparable to any one console for either publisher. This is why they love multi-platform titles, sadly.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

trickson said:


> I get pissed off hearing about all this piracy I have never done this and will never do it . Buy it like a a normal person will you . This is why we as PC gamers suffer !
> I have a message for all pirates of games !
> 
> STOP IT NOW !!!


You should ask the companies selling the games to offer them at a price people are willing to pay.


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## KingPing (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> You should ask the companies selling the games to offer them at a price people are willing to pay.




I'm my country that would be like 2.50 dollaars, seiously, i'm no joking .

I don't think companies will like that


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## trickson (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> You should ask the companies selling the games to offer them at a price people are willing to pay.



OH that is Just BS and you know it . Xbox360 , wii and all the console games are just as costly as any PC game and they SUCK MORE than PC games !


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2010)

vbx said:


> Cities XL


It has been cracked, but not by the usual groups.


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## trickson (Aug 9, 2010)

KingPing said:


> In my country that would be like $2.50 . seriously, I'm not joking .
> 
> I don't think companies would like that



I fixed it for you . ^^^^^


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

trickson said:


> OH that is Just BS and you know it . Xbox360 , wii and all the console games are just as costly as any PC game and they SUCK MORE than PC games !


Console games should be sold for less than PC games.


KingPing said:


> I'm my country that would be like 2.50 dollaars, seiously, i'm no joking .
> 
> I don't think companies will like that


i think they would prefer actually having sales.


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## trickson (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> Console games should be sold for less.



Yes they should be as they are far more outdated than a PC game . PC games can use all the new tech coming out and the new hardware so yea they should be more costly than a console game there are far better engines DX11 fast GPU's ,faster CPU's and RAM to take advantage of not some POS that has been sitting there for 5 years never changing !


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## Easo (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, if game costs 60 euros (hai blizz) in Latvia and other coutries with LOW income and economy in a total disaster , its way overcharged... It should never cost as much as in USA or UK or smth unless paychecks are the same level. So its no wonder that in Eastern Europe and Russia piracy will only grow and grow (those are tens of milllions of people). Its only logical.


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## KingPing (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> Console games should be sold for less than PC games.
> i think they would prefer actually having sales.



That will never happen:

MW2 sold (so far) 20.000.000 units, at $60 that's $ 1.200.000.000 

at  $2.50 they have to sell more or less 500.000.000 units (more units than consoles and PCs together by far)  to reach the $1.200.000.000 mark.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

KingPing said:


> *That will never happen*:
> 
> MW2 sold (so far) 20.000.000 units, at $60 that's $ 1.200.000.000
> 
> at  $2.50 they have to sell more or less 500.000.000 units (more units than consoles and PCs together by far)  to reach the $1.200.000.000 mark.


And that's why people continue to pirate.

Actually, the regions they would sell them for $2.50 would be the same regions they're getting practically zero sales from anyway. So anything would be a step up.

$60 x 0 sales = 0 dollars made
$2.50 x any number higher than 0 = more money than they'd make from the games costing $60


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> of the two concepts:
> * making an unauthorized copy
> * removing item from someone's possession



They are one and the same to me. Your justification of making them separate makes no sense to me.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> They are one and the same to me. Your justification of making them separate makes no sense to me.


How does making a copy remove something from someone's possession? that doesn't make sense.

If you make a copy, the person you copied it from still has said item.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> How does making a copy remove something from someone's possession? that doesn't make sense.



Whoever owns that software owns the intellectual property. It doesn't remove anything from anyones possesion, it takes it without consent of the owner without payment. Stealing. That's the way I see it.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Apok said:
			
		

> I wouldn't steal a ferrari.
> But i would consider making a copy of one if it didn't cost anything/much to do.



This is an argument I've seen before. It seperates the (tangible) property from the (intangible) intellectual property. In each case, both have required an investment of time and money to produce, but somehow people deem that there is something of less value when it comes to intellectual property.

Why should my invenstment into something intangible that I create (IP) get a pass on stealing when an owner of a tangible item (like a ferrari) is off limits in the minds of people?


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## newtekie1 (Aug 9, 2010)

Piracy is not stealing.

That doesn't make piracy any less wrong, but mislabelling it as stealing isn't correct, piracy is piracy.  And this is coming from someone that supports DRM and understands why it is necessary.

It annoys me to no end when people try to make piracy sound worse by labelling it as stealing.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> It doesn't remove anything from anyones possesion


So you are saying they are different.


Kreij said:


> This is an argument I've seen before. It seperates the (tangible) property from the (intangible) intellectual property. In each case, both have required an investment of time and money to produce, but somehow people deem that there is something of less value when it comes to intellectual property.


Material cost of the ferarri is where most of the cost comes from.


Kreij said:


> Why should my invenstment into something intangible that I create (IP) get a pass on stealing when an owner of a tangible item (like a ferrari) is off limits in the minds of people?


If material costs were irrelevant, ferrari could just sell the design.
But I wouldn't buy the design if it's overpriced.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> So you are saying they are different.



Within the context, nope.



Apokalipse said:


> If material costs were irrelevant, ferrari could just sell the design.
> But I wouldn't buy the design if it's overpriced.



But if you really wanted it, would you steal/pirate it?


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> Within the context, nope.


What context is that?

I just saw you try to equate them using the label 'steal'


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## DannibusX (Aug 9, 2010)

Piracy is theft.  Justifying it as anything else is nonsense.

Stealing a car is theft.  Copying intellectual property for your own use without having paid for it is theft.  Just like stiffing the guy that changed your brake pads on his labor costs is theft.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

The analogy is flawed. Can you make a copy of someone's labor without them having to do any extra work?


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> What context is that?
> 
> I just saw you try to equate them using the label 'steal'



Yep, they are both stealing. I think you need to understand what intellectual property is. So what if you came out with a brilliant piece of software that took years of time and money to create. You then sell this software at a very reasonable price to the public. You find out that there are many who are stealing this software from you without payment. What would you do?



Apokalipse said:


> The analogy is flawed. Can you make a copy of someone's labor without them having to do any extra work?



Yeah, copying their software is copying thier labor. Their labor is paid for through the software they made. You steal the software, you steal their work.


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## DannibusX (Aug 9, 2010)

Troll elsewhere.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Sigh ... From the dictionary definition ...


> steal (stl) v. stole (stl), sto·len (stln), steal·ing, steals
> v.tr.
> 1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.



Seems pretty straight forward to me. The software is my property, you are buying a license to use it.
You take it without my permission, well ... make your own decision.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> Yep, they are both stealing.


Which is a meaningless label if you have an overly broad definition.



erocker said:


> I think you need to understand what intellectual property is. So what if you came out with a brilliant piece of software that took years of time and money to create. You then sell this software at a very reasonable price to the public. You find out that there are many who are stealing this software from you without payment. What would you do?


Pull my head out of my ass and realize it is not what the free market considers a reasonable cost.



DannibusX said:


> Troll elsewhere.


Great argument, I'm convinced!



Kreij said:


> Sigh ... From the dictionary definition ...
> 
> 
> > steal (stl) v. stole (stl), sto·len (stln), steal·ing, steals
> ...


You now have another problem: what is property?

Also, even if you define 'stealing' in such a way that it applies to piracy, it does not change the fact that there are two very different concepts.


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## KingPing (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> And that's why people continue to pirate.



I never said it was going to stop.

I'm lucky i can afford to buy original games (thanks to Steam you like it or not), here in my city if you say you payed 60 dollars for a game they think you are a moron (and i'm the biggest one around here), because some people have to live an entire month with just that ( just like in the 80% of the planet).

I don't pirate games, i think it's a crime (i wouldn't like my stuff to be pirated), and i think that if you can afford them and you still pirate the games you are an ass. But I'm not going to say to those people "hey that cost 60 dollars, if you can't afford it don't pirate it (or buy pirated copies)", because: a) they will kick my ass pretty badly and b) i'm not going to make their life crappier than they already are.

 So in my humble opinion piracy should concern companies (like they do) in countries where people can afford games at $60 (they should at $50 max for a tier 1 game, $60 with free dlc)


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> Which is a meaningless label if you have an overly broad definition.
> 
> Stealing is pretty board and means many things. I don't make up the definition.
> 
> Pull my head out of my ass and realize it is not what the free market considers a reasonable cost.



Of course not, the public wants everything for free. Why don't we just live in a state of anarchy? Whether it's two dollars or two hundred dollars, people are going to steal it. It's very easy to do protected by your desk and monitor.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Keep it civil, or the thread goes away and people are not going to be happy.


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## DannibusX (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> Pull my head out of my ass and realize it is not what the free market considers a reasonable cost.




Hmm.  I have bought a lot of games at full price that I thought were worth it.  Starcraft 2, for instance, cost $10 more than the standard PC game.  I bought it because I thought it was a fair price.  I also like the developer.  Same story with Modern Warfare 2, I bought that as well for the same inflated price.  I skipped the map packs for it though.  I generally feel that it wasn't worth it.  There it is, the free market hard at work.

Oh, you mean the "free" market.  I'm sorry, we must have a misunderstanding.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> Of course not, the public wants everything for free. Why don't we just live in a state of anarchy?


slippery slope fallacy.


erocker said:


> Whether it's two dollars or two hundred dollars, people are going to steal it. It's very easy to do protected by your desk and monitor.


A lot fewer people will steal if it's $2.

There will also always be people who shoplift. Which is a very small minority, because of the major difference between copying and removing from possession.


KingPing said:


> I never said it was going to stop.
> 
> I'm lucky i can afford to buy original games (thanks to Steam you like it or not), here in my city if you say you payed 60 dollars for a game they think you are a moron (and i'm the biggest one around here), because some people have to live an entire month with just that ( just like in the 80% of the planet).
> 
> ...


I buy games on steam.
i would buy more if more games were priced reasonably.



DannibusX said:


> Hmm.  I have bought a lot of games at full price that I thought were worth it.  Starcraft 2, for instance, cost $10 more than the standard PC game.  I bought it because I thought it was a fair price.  I also like the developer.  Same story with Modern Warfare 2, I bought that as well for the same inflated price.  I skipped the map packs for it though.  I generally feel that it wasn't worth it.  There it is, the free market hard at work.


I think you are the exception, not the rule.


DannibusX said:


> Oh, you mean the "free" market.  I'm sorry, we must have a misunderstanding.


Free as in freedom. Which I have stated before.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Games in Steam will be cheaper if you wait awhile. You know that devs are going to try to get the best return on their dollar while the hype is still in play.

I buy games later when they are not so expensive. I got Mass Effect 1 and 2 for about $40 total. That to me is a reasonable price.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Games in Steam will be cheaper if you wait awhile. You know that devs are going to try to get the best return on their dollar while the hype is still in play.
> 
> I buy games later when they are not so expensive. I got Mass Effect 1 and 2 for about $40 total. That to me is a reasonable price.


That's usually when I buy them.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

> Main Entry: pi·ra·cy
> Pronunciation: \ˈpī-rə-sē\
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural pi·ra·cies
> ...




I think stealing software is a term not very suitable for this topic other than #3 which was obviously placed there for current times. Let's see what the definition of robbery is!




> Main Entry: rob·bery
> Pronunciation: \ˈrä-b(ə-)rē\
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural rob·ber·ies
> ...




"the act or practice of robbing" well, that gets us nowhere. Larceny is taking something to purposely keep the other from having it and that doesn't make sense here...


Well, let's look up stealing or steal...




> Main Entry: steal
> Pronunciation: \ˈstēl\
> Function: verb
> Inflected Form(s): stole \ˈstōl\; sto·len \ˈstō-lən\; steal·ing
> ...




Well now... 1 a seems to define "pirating software" better than "piracy" does. Most likely the people who steal this software are the ones that dubbed themselves pirates. While being a pirate on the high seas wasn't the greatest thing in the world to do, there is a modern day romantacism with it. Pirates back in the day were known for stealing, smuggling and things of that nature. Yes, they were pirates and they took place in the act of stealing.


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## KingPing (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Games in Steam will be cheaper if you wait awhile. You know that devs are going to try to get the best return on their dollar while the hype is still in play.
> 
> I buy games later when they are not so expensive. I got Mass Effect 1 and 2 for about $40 total. That to me is a reasonable price.





Exactly, i bought Killing Floor at $3.75, i feel like i robbed them, Metro 2033 for $29.99, Tropico 3 fro $9.99, etc


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> There will also always be people who shoplift. Which is a very small minority, because of the major difference between copying and removing from possession.



Nope. Shoplifting requires real physical work. Stealing software requires sitting behind a desk in the comfort of your home. Yes, there is a diference, but both are stealing.


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## Apokalipse (Aug 9, 2010)

erocker said:


> [snip]


So you're trying to argue:
1. word X is even more ambiguous
2. therefore word Y, which is (less but still) ambiguous is valid?


erocker said:


> Nope. Shoplifting requires real physical work. Stealing software requires sitting behind a desk in the comfort of your home. Yes, there is a diference, but both are stealing.


It requires less work *because* it doesn't involve removing from possession.


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## Kreij (Aug 9, 2010)

Sigh ... I was enjoying the discussion here, but this thread has seen it's useful life.
Let's move on all.


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## erocker (Aug 9, 2010)

Apokalipse said:


> So you're trying to argue:
> 1. word X is even more ambiguous
> 2. therefore word Y, which is (less but still) ambiguous is valid?
> It requires less work *because* it doesn't involve removing from possession.



Which, again is why there is intellectual property. Taking it is defined as the same thing as removing from possession. 

Before we go in circles any more, it's been a good chat. I'm glad someone in a thread like this takes an opposite stance and provides a good argument.


----------

