# The Mini-ITX build begins.



## Lazzer408 (Oct 11, 2009)

*The Mini-ITX build... RESUMES!*

*-WARNING-* _This project involves working with LETHAL voltages! Do NOT open your power supply without proper training and knowledge._

So far...

-Zotac GF9300-D-E motherboard (on-board gfx is crap don't kid yourself otherwise)
-Intel E6750 Core2duo CPU
-Asus EAH4550 512mb ddr3 ATI HD4850 512mb ATI HD4870 

GF9300-D-E info found here.
http://www.zotacusa.com/zotac-geforce-gf9300-d-e-itx-wifi-lga-775-mini-itx-intel-motherboard.html

I couldn't be happier with this motherboard. It has a handfull of bios settings to allow for overclocking and the E6750 was happy to do 3ghz without any voltage adjustment. I'm using the stock Intel cooler and I'll post some temps when the build is finished.

I haven't settled on a chassis though. I intended on the Winsys Wi-01-BK because of it's 200w power supply and the ability to use a low profile graphics card. Here's a photo of that case.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/directron_2073_214427739

After looking at a few more chassis I took a liking to the thin ones such as the Jetway JC-111-B http://www.jetway.com.tw/jw/case_view.asp?productid=586&proname=JC-111-B

It has 2 full-height slots turned 90deg. I wondered if I could sneek a HD3850 in there if I relocated the HDD as low as I could. By removing the existing mount, and attaching the drive directly to the bottom of the chassis by drilling some mounting holes, I think it would fit nicely. I've found flexable pcie risers to make the connection back to the motherboard. One can be seen here. http://www.mini-itx.com/store/images/1921-fr10x.jpg 

The last problem is powering the HD3850. I have a 12v 7-amp power brick that might work. I would add another DC-in jack to the case and label it 'GPU'. Internally the power would be switched on via. relay when the computer turns on.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 11, 2009)

Here's a few photos of the 4550 and my old trusty x1950pro for comparison. The 1950 is the same size as the 3850 so I'll have something to go by until I get a 3850. It would mount in the jetway sideways as shown. Or maybe a 4850?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 11, 2009)

Lets see if this works. =)

EDIT - Yup it works. (pic 2)

EDIT - Runs a 3870 also. (pic3)


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 12, 2009)

I think I found a better powersupply solution by using a 1U supply. Cardboard mock-up shows it might fit. Too bad I don't have internal case dimensions. I feel like I'm talking to myself but someone has to be watching...right?


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## [Ion] (Oct 12, 2009)

Looks good, subbed


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## newtekie1 (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm watching!


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 12, 2009)

Anyone have a 1U psu kicking around?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 12, 2009)

This little motherboard is amasing. E6750@3.2ghz 1600fsb at stock voltage. Prime stable for a few hours now 59c. WiFi is rock solid also. 

The onboard graphics (9300) runs Halflife2 at 1280x1024 liquid smooth. I'm not doing a review or I'd have more detail. It couldn't pull off 2000 in 3dmark06 yet it runs HL2 fine? I'll have to look into that and even try Crysis if I can find the CD. If your looking for a mini-ITX, I have nothing bad to say about this board. I've read the wake-on-usb isn't working for those with a usb remote building a HTPC. There is another revision coming out soon with this fixed and another SATA port.

I should be ordering the case and U1 PSU tomorrow. I hope I can make it all fit in a Jetway case.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 13, 2009)

HD3870 scored a 10,800 in 3dmark06. At the moment I'm running all this on a 300w micro ATX supply but I picked up the 1U 450w supply today for $95 (ouch). I'm still waiting to hear back from the supplier about the case. I settled on the GA630iBK Type-A http://www.g-alantic.com.tw/g-ga630ibk.htm

The case should support a HD4870 double slot card -if- I use a laptop HDD relocated to the bottom. With a single slot card a full 3.5" HDD can be used.

The whole point of this is to see just how powerfull a small form factor PC could be. Most if not all of them are limited by the power supplies. I'm going to try making passive heatsinks for the mosfets in the m-ATX PSU and run it without a fan. After all, it has to be quiet too.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 14, 2009)

Here's a nice use for those old square cpu heatsinks. I cut a chunk off to make a little heatsink for the mosfets.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 17, 2009)

My case is finally on the way. The now bios modded 4850 I bought off the forum (thanks Gabkicks!) is quit happy in it's new home on the Zotac. It runs Crysis on high 1280x1024 at very playable framerates. Not many "not square" 2.5" tall ITX builds can run Crysis.  I have to modify the little 300w mATX PSU I'll be using. The capasitors stick up a bit high so have to put in some shorter caps and extend the heatsinks out the side where they will bolt up to a hunk of surplus socket 478 cooler. This puts the fins right in the path of the inlet fan. The key to making this work is keeping that PSU cool. I may even have to put the filter/rectifier/caps on another pcb elsewhere in the case and run the 160vdc line to the main PSU board. Case comes Thursday so watch for pics!

The 4850 is pulling off 11,232 in 3dmark06. I might tweak around a bit and see if I can squeeze a bit more. bwahaha

EDIT - 12,163 was the best I could do and still keep it near silent.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

damn that is a tight fit! where are you going to put the psu? because that case you linked to doesn't look like it will take one internally without removing all the casing and some serous modifications to it.

even then are you sure the hd4850 will fit without using a dremel?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I have to modify the little 300w mATX PSU I'll be using. The capasitors stick up a bit high so have to put in some shorter caps and extend the heatsinks out the side where they will bolt up to a hunk of surplus socket 478 cooler. This puts the fins right in the path of the inlet fan. The key to making this work is keeping that PSU cool. I may even have to put the filter/rectifier/caps on another pcb elsewhere in the case and run the 160vdc line to the main PSU board. Case comes Thursday so watch for pics!.





The PSU will mount below the dvd drive bay. I have about 1.5" height and 7" width and about 4-5" depth. I'll post a pic in just a min.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

This looks like a perfect build for a HD5750.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> This looks like a perfect build for a HD5750.



A double-wide card WILL fit in the case but you will have to use a 2.5" HDD. I will try to install my 4870 to test fitment but I'm pretty sure it'll fit.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Here's some pics to show the power supply placement, HDD location, and the additional 80mm thin fan I'll be adding to get some direct air near the video card's inlet. I had a thin 80mm and it just clears the 3.5" HDD's power and sata connectors. I have to shorten the wires off the PSU. There's just no room for wires.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

my thought was the 5750 would be the same length as the mobo. I really wish I had picked up one of these tiny mobos that had a pciX on it.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> my thought was the 5750 would be the same length as the mobo. I really wish I had picked up one of these tiny mobos that had a pciX on it.



I have the lenght for the card once the case's HDD brackets are removed. I just realised I didn't post a pic of the inside of the case.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

One thing I like is the fans on the right side. The front fan will be blowing directly on the PSU. The PSU has a fan controller on it and I'll hook that fan directly to it. The one towards the rear will be wired in parallel with the CPU fan. The additional 80mm fan I'm adding on the bottom could connect to the motherboard's only available fan header but that header does not have any fan control. I will probably tie it parallel into the videocard's fan.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

lol using a riser card you could run a 5870 X2 in there


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> lol using a riser card you could run a 5870 X2 in there



Probably but I better buy tin snips first.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

Tinsnips FTW!

(oh yea theres that whole no 5870 X2's yet too)


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods, I did order the riser that puts the card in the top slot. That's what makes the magic happen. 

This one.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

it looks like the heat from the graphics card could be a concern cos there are only small vents on that right hand side where the graphics card will sit.

you could probably cut one or 2 out to let the graphics card exhaust heat out the case if it does become a problem.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

I picked up one for my PCI (intel Atom) they are really handy. They have reverse, backwards  and flex ones too.

Geo:He can cut a hole in the bottom of the case to act as a cold air intake for the GPU.

EDIT: I just saw the 1U PS (its gonna block the air on the gpu)


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> Geo:He can cut a hole in the bottom of the case to act as a cold air intake for the GPU.



yea i read that he was going to put an intake for the graphics card but also the way a hd 4850 vents the hot air from the heatsink is towards the top of the card near the pci bracket. so if he cut a couple of the small vents so they were larger in that area it would help stop the 4850 dumping heat into the case.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> I picked up one for my PCI (intel Atom) they are really handy. They have reverse, backwards  and flex ones too.
> 
> Geo:He can cut a hole in the bottom of the case to act as a cold air intake for the GPU.



Did you see the location of the 80mm fan in one of the pics? Just in front of the HDD. It will blow upwards right on the cards intake and probably help keep the HDD a little cooler. I thought about drilling a bunch of holes at the top left rear corner of the case. The 4850 vents internally and it's damn hot air too. If I can I'll try and make a plastic guide to direct the air to the holes. A double wide card would work great in this case having that 80mm right on it plus venting out the rear. There would be no cooling issues with that setup but I'd be stuck with laptop HDDs. On the other hand, two laptop HDDs would fit in there and I could RAID them. 

EDIT - The 1U PSU is not going to be used. It was just a thought but there's no room for it. In the following posts are pics of the PSU board sitting in front of the motherboard.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

I like the Laptop Raid Idea (I did it on all my sff builds)
1- they only need 5V(eliminates un needed wires)
2- take practically no power
3- fit so easily
4- modern ones use sata (way easier to hookup)
5- prices are way down now compared to before
6- almost no heat added to comp

I have a bunch of reverse 90deg and short Sata cables if you need just PM me.

Glad no 1U PS, I tried them but they were very loud...


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Did you see the location of the 80mm fan in one of the pics? Just in front of the HDD. It will blow upwards right on the cards intake and probably help keep the HDD a little cooler. I thought about drilling a bunch of holes at the top left rear corner of the case. The 4850 vents internally and it's damn hot air too. If I can I'll try and make a plastic guide to direct the air to the holes. A double wide card would work great in this case having that 80mm right on it plus venting out the rear. There would be no cooling issues with that setup but I'd be stuck with laptop HDDs. On the other hand, two laptop HDDs would fit in there and I could RAID them.



the best way to sort all the heat problems is watercool that sucker


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> I like the Laptop Raid Idea (I did it on all my sff builds)
> 1- they only need 5V(eliminates un needed wires)
> 2- take practically no power
> 3- fit so easily
> ...



7-quieter

I just remembered the motherboard only has 2 SATA ports but I could use a USB to SATA adaptor. There are 3 USB headers on-board. One is used for the WiFi. My DVD-R drive is SATA.

Here's the pic that shows how things are most likely going to be laid out. The PSU is the board at the top right.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

when i said cut out the side of the case i was meaning this area here so the 4850 will vent directly out thee case like a dual slot card


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

every time I see the pict of that Zotac mobo I become so jealous.....

I had a lot of probs with Laptop DVDs reading stuff, I hope you have better luck.(I have like 4 dif ones)

This is gonna be really nice when done.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> when i said cut out the side of the case i was meaning this area here so the 4850 will vent directly out thee case like a dual slot card
> 
> http://i35.tinypic.com/2uib3o4.jpg



Exactly. If I could make a small airduct off the card to line up with a vent hole it would also help significantly.



MKmods said:


> every time I see the pict of that Zotac mobo I become so jealous.....
> 
> I had a lot of probs with Laptop DVDs reading stuff, I hope you have better luck.(I have like 4 dif ones)
> 
> This is gonna be really nice when done.



Really? The one I bought is a Sony dual-layer 8x burner. I hope I don't have any issues with it. They seem to hold up ok in laptops. Too bad it's not a slot-load though. I couldn't find a good deal on one of those. My Sony was only $50. Oh and thanks for the props. It's been rock solid stable so far. As long as I can keep that PSU cool and internal case temps reasonable I think I'll be very happy with it. The CPU is overclocked to 3.2ghz now. I could slow it down but unfortunatly this motherboard's BIOS doesn't allow you to lower the voltage to the CPU or NB.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Exactly. If I could make a small airduct off the card to line up with a vent hole it would also help significantly.
> 
> Really? The one I bought is a Sony dual-layer 8x burner. I hope I don't have any issues with it. They seem to hold up ok in laptops. Too bad it's not a slot-load though. I couldn't find a good deal on one of those. My Sony was only $50. Oh and thanks for the props. It's been rock solid stable so far. As long as I can keep that PSU cool and internal case temps reasonable I think I'll be very happy with it. The CPU is overclocked to 3.2ghz now. I could slow it down but unfortunatly this motherboard's BIOS doesn't allow you to lower the voltage to the CPU or NB.





i use 2 laptop dvd drives in usb cases with my itx rig and i have not had any problems with them. just be careful you don't touch the lens when you open it.

if you want to undervolt your cpu there is software that will let you manipulate the speedstep power management in windows to let you change the vcore down along with the multiplier.


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## Cuzza (Oct 18, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Here's a nice use for those old square cpu heatsinks. I cut a chunk off to make a little heatsink for the mosfets.
> 
> http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29573&stc=1&d=1255498086



Nice work. What did you use to cut that?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> Nice work. What did you use to cut that?



My bandsaw. I had to buy one to cut parts for a 144kw power supply I'm building. A hacksaw would work fine but it would take a bit more filing to even out the cut.


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## Cuzza (Oct 18, 2009)

144kw? powering a supercomputer?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> 144kw? powering a supercomputer?



Electric car.


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## Cuzza (Oct 18, 2009)

Serious! Dude, where's the Plog for that one?


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> i use 2 laptop dvd drives in usb cases with my itx rig and i have not had any problems with them. just be careful you don't touch the lens when you open it.
> 
> if you want to undervolt your cpu there is software that will let you manipulate the speedstep power management in windows to let you change the vcore down along with the multiplier.



they worked ok for most stuff but I had a really hard time getting them to run Movies on DVDs. 
(I havent tried the one that used a DVD cable yet, I had to use the Laptop DVD to ide/sata cable adaptors)


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> Serious! Dude, where's the Plog for that one?



I can't go into much detail about it. It's still under development. The drive for the prototype is DC. Production drive will be AC. I'm just doing the DC system design for the prototype.

http://orionelectriccar.com/

Here's a '91 Geo Metro I converted years ago. That car was a BLAST to drive! I miss it. It was sold years ago.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

the program for managing speedstep on my old pentium d was RMclock utility. not sure if it will work on a core2 tho
http://cpu.rightmark.org/download.shtml


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> the program for managing speedstep on my old pentium d was RMclock utility. not sure if it will work on a core2 tho
> http://cpu.rightmark.org/download.shtml



I have full fsb control on the Zotec. Multiplier also. Speedstep would drop the voltage too wouldn't it? But then under load it would go back to full furnace mode.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I have full fsb control on the Zotec. Multiplier also. Speedstep would drop the voltage too wouldn't it? But then under load it would go back to full furnace mode.



im pretty sure you can define your own speedstep voltages and speeds with rmclock that means you can set your cpu speeds and voltages for speedstep. so if you wanted to have it on silent mode jsut use rm clock to drop the multiplier on the cpu so its near stock speeds with your fsb overclock and drop the voltage. when you want to run at overclocked speeds just turn it back up.



random thought, shouldnt your itx build be in with the project logs instead of the general hardware?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> im pretty sure you can define your own speedstep voltages and speeds with rmclock that means you can set your cpu at full speed and undervolt it.



Ok thanks. I'll look into it if it runs hot. I'm all hyped up for my Thurdsay delivery when all will be answered. Like "Will the power supply fit?" lol If not I'll be doing what your doing and velcroing a power brick on the back. Hows your power project going? I haven't seen any new pics.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

im just waiting for parts at the moment. unfortunately most of it is coming from china so it takes a while.


edit :im seriously considering water cooling aswell now i think i can actually get it to fit. its gonna be real tight tho.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> im just waiting for parts at the moment. unfortunately most of it is coming from china so it takes a while.



You should have said something. I'd mail you a grab bag!


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

how are you going to isolate your power supply from the rest of the case? obv you cant just leave it sitting on the bottom of the case?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> how are you going to isolate your power supply from the rest of the case? obv you cant just leave it sitting on the bottom of the case?



The bottom of the power supply has a thin plastic cover on it for some protection. When it was mounted in the original enclosure it had 4 stand-offs that it was secured to. I thought about something similar but using 4 of those brass motherboard stand-offs upside down. The bottom of the case would only show 4 philips screw heads. The PSU board would then be placed over the 'studs' inside with 4 nuts to hold it down. Keeps it clean and simple and makes use of the seemingly endless amounts of stuff I have around here.

Uninsolated for proper shielding/grounding, like this.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

I had an idea. Please pardon my cardboard mock-up but it's just a thought. There's still a portion of the heatsink outlet left exposed to the inside of the case but this would direct most of it out the bottom slot and still retain enough room for the 3.5" harddrive. What do you think?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Rev 2.0! ALL of the outlet is directed out the back.


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## <<Onafets>> (Oct 18, 2009)

That's gonna turn out really good...*Ona thinks he is gonna make a shitload of money and do this with a 9800GX2 because then name sounds good.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

During Furmark CCC shows the fan at 45% with temp sitting around 78-79c (same as before). It's not too loud either. I can hear it across a quiet room but with the TV on, even at low volume, I can't hear the computer. Video cooling problem solved! \/


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## Cuzza (Oct 18, 2009)

Like it, Do it!


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Done. Ok maybe not done because I want to re-do it in plastic but yeh... It'll work. I had an old dead 3870 and the bracket fit.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Here's the ITX running Crysis on very high setting 1024x768 no AA. I'm not using a mouse pad or even trying to play so no whining! haha. Taken with my digital camera so sorry about the quality. The clicking you hear is the harddrive resting on the same box the camera is on. Gives you an idea how quiet the thing is. My own computer is in the same room making more noise then this ITX is.

View My Video


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## Geofrancis (Oct 18, 2009)

the power supply still looks a bit dangerus to me but i suppose if your carefull and not touch it or drop any screws on you should be fine.

nice cooling mod with the 4850. it looks a bit ghetto but it should help get all that hot air out the case.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> the power supply still looks a bit dangerus to me but i suppose if your carefull and not touch it or drop any screws on you should be fine.
> 
> nice cooling mod with the 4850. it looks a bit ghetto but it should help get all that hot air out the case.



 Ghetto? 

My CNC and injection moulding machines haven't arived yet so it was the best I could do.  (as if)


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## [Ion] (Oct 18, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Rev 2.0! ALL of the outlet is directed out the back.
> 
> http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29735&stc=1&d=1255850296
> http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29736&stc=1&d=1255850305
> http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29737&stc=1&d=1255852800



I did this with a Geforce 9600GSO, it lowered GPU temps and general case temps.  NB and CPU temps also went down a couple degrees.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

cool design on the GPU cooler.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 18, 2009)

MKmods said:


> cool design on the GPU cooler.



Thanks. 

I modified ATI's plastic heatsink cover to remove the louvers directing the airflow upwards. This helps keep the air moving towards the rear. I'm also making changes to my cardboard shrowd so it lines up better with the rear vent openings in the backplate. Furmark has been running for almost an hour now with the fan set to 45%. The new changes have dropped the temp another 4c from 79c to 75c. Every little bit helps.


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## MKmods (Oct 18, 2009)

what diff do you get with the fan at 100%?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 19, 2009)

MKmods said:


> what diff do you get with the fan at 100%?



Alot of unwanted noise.

Here's the new shrowd. It vents through the entire rear opening.


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## MKmods (Oct 19, 2009)

I noticed with my Enzo cooler on my CPU when I use a 50cfm fan (almost silent) and a 200cfm fan (sounds like a jet engine) the temps are is only 1 or 2C diff.

I wish there was a way to check CFMs on GPU cooler fans.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 19, 2009)

On my friend's Ultra120 we tried a 108cfm fan and it only made 1c improvement.


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## MKmods (Oct 19, 2009)

when I had my old 8800GTSs I cut out the slots in the exhaust it improved the temps a few C and cut down on noise


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## Geofrancis (Oct 19, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Ghetto?
> 
> My CNC and injection moulding machines haven't arived yet so it was the best I could do.  (as if)




lol its all good as long as it does the job.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 22, 2009)

My parts should be here in about 12 hours. bwahaha Let the hacking begin!


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## <<Onafets>> (Oct 22, 2009)

Good job with revision 3.5..lol!

This is turning out really good!


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 22, 2009)

Fresh pics. This case is well built in my opinion. Not too much flex. They seem to have used a heavier gauge sheetmetal for it's construction. That's a plus. Shown below the picture of the case and contents (first pic), is the PCIe riser card and sata cable for my sata laptop dvdr. Neither the riser or cable was included with the case but were only about ~$5ea. Everything fits but the 300w PSU.  I have another option and that's gutting a 12v brick and sticking it in the case for gfx power and pray the 80w psu can run an E6750. (doubt it). The supplied 2nd hdd bracket (below the video card) puts the hdd too close to the videocard's fan intake. Removing the bracket and mounting the hdd right to the bottom of the case will open it up another 1/4" or so. If you noticed I had to snip part of the gfx's mounting bracket to clear the wifi antenna. No biggie. I also had to saw off part of the gfx's pcb where it was contacting the case. I will have the room I need to fit a thin or full size 80mm fan in the front.  With that fan close to the gfx card's intake, and the gfx venting out the back, I know I won't have any issues with the gfx card overheating.


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## MKmods (Oct 23, 2009)

very clean build so far


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## MoonPig (Oct 23, 2009)

damn this thread... makes me want to make one for a download / lan rig. DAMN YOU!!!

Looks awesome man, always wanted one of them Zotac boards.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 23, 2009)

It powers up but it turns out the case-supplied 80w doesn't have the power. It shuts off after about 10 seconds. The 80w psu only has a 20pin ATX connector. I've ran 24-pin boards off of just 20-pin in the past but who knows. I'll whip up a connector to use a 4-pin Molex to make up for the missing 12, 5, and 3.3v for the mobo's ATX connector but the 3.3 I'll have to tap from somewhere else.


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## MKmods (Oct 23, 2009)

I have one of these laying round if you need it 
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl;jsessi...34Pa38Ta38Ra3z0?it=A&id=301&sc=8&category=981


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 23, 2009)

Yeh it looks like I might. I can't get this to stop shutting down. I made the molex to missing 4 atx-24 connector but I didn't get the 3.3v connected yet. I thought I'd try it without it first.

EDIT - Nope. Even with the 3.3v it's still shutting down. I didn't think the 80w would power it up and I hadn't planned on using it either but since the 300w doesn't fit I thought I'd try it. I might just make my own psu for it. That way I know I have enough power and know it'll fit.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 23, 2009)

It's SO close.  I'll have to make new power/reset buttons, and alter the mounting of the front usb ports, but it might just cram in there with a bit of trimming. The transformer will clear the bottom of the optical bracket but I'll still have to get some shorter capacitors. Mouser has the ones I'll need. I could even fit the dedicated 12v power supply in there too (green) and still have enough room for a fan on the side instead of the bottom (yellow).


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 23, 2009)

The 12v power is solved!  I managed to fit the Vector Travelmate adaptor just under the video card. I made a new heatsink that is shorter and puts the fins horizontal and parallel the airflow through the case. I have just just enough room for a small fan (probably 2) and the usb pcb just fits in that notch as if it was ment to be. Now to knock out the ATX supply, power/reset buttons, and LEDs.


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## MKmods (Oct 23, 2009)

well done, looks very clean.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 23, 2009)

A little revision to the psu heatsink to try and keep it's heat away from the gfx card. I just found out a 60mm fan _just_ fits in the sides. A couple of those on the side should work great.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 23, 2009)

there are always 200w dc-dc psu's if you cant get get it to fit.

is that a atx or a micro atx psu that your trying to fit into it?


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## ERazer (Oct 23, 2009)

love it love it love it


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 23, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> there are always 200w dc-dc psu's if you cant get get it to fit.
> 
> is that a atx or a micro atx psu that your trying to fit into it?



The supply for the mobo is a m-atx psu. I have a board from a full size atx that fits as well. The supply under the gpu is a 12v adaptor.

I know about larger DC/DC supplies but could that run the motherboard AND the gfx? If not, then I'll have 2 cables running to the box. One for the DC/DC and another AC line for the 12v internal adaptor powering the gpu. I'm try to build this as self contained as I can with just one AC line ran to it.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 24, 2009)

I gutted every ATX supply I had and found one with a smaller pcb. I'm going to go with a single supply now. The supply itself mounts under the gfx card and will be heat-piped over to a heatsink under the optical bay.

Here's a rough idea how that lays out.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 24, 2009)

is that just a piece of aluminium that you are using for a heatpipe? what about getting one of these zalman hard drive coolers and useing the heatpips from it ?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 24, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> is that just a piece of aluminium that you are using for a heatpipe? what about getting one of these zalman hard drive coolers and useing the heatpips from it ?
> 
> http://www.extremereviews.net/images/review_imgs/cool/2HC2-top.jpg



I'd just order heatpipes if I go that route. Cheaper to get them from a manufacture.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 24, 2009)

Here's what I came up with so far.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 24, 2009)

All the wiring is soldered in. Should be powering up soon. Hopefully I don't pop my Zotac.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 25, 2009)

i would check the 12v 5v and 3.3v lines with a multimeter just to make sure that all the voltages are within tolerances. i wouldnt like to test that its working with a motherboard :-/


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 25, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> i would check the 12v 5v and 3.3v lines with a multimeter just to make sure that all the voltages are within tolerances. i wouldnt like to test that its working with a motherboard :-/



Already tested but the 12v rail was a bit low (11.86v) during the time 4 test hdds were spinning up. Everything else was stable. This was an old power supply I had laying around. It could have a few dried up caps. I have another known good 300w powersupply just in case.I already modded it. 

The reason I went with the main psu in the other corner was because of the width of the pcb. When mounted in front of the motherboard it blocked the usb ports and made it difficult to mount the power/reset button/led assembly. What this also does is leaves room for the Vector 12v adaptor to fit in front of the motherboard and still have room for the switches/leds and the USB board. Looks like the gpu may still get a dedicated supply!


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 25, 2009)

Powersupply #1 = FAIL

Gets too hot. The mosfets are fine. The aluminum sink seems to work ok. It's a coil on the output that gets toasty. =( 'll have to try the other supply. I wasn't even sure if this supply was  good anyway.


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 25, 2009)

this looks interesting, great job you've done so far.  hope you can get the PSU sorted out soon 

Subscribed


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## Geofrancis (Oct 25, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Powersupply #1 = FAIL
> 
> Gets too hot. The mosfets are fine. The aluminum sink seems to work ok. It's a coil on the output that gets toasty. =( 'll have to try the other supply. I wasn't even sure if this supply was  good anyway.



you should have a look into some of those dell and compaq sff power supplys. they do them in weird shapes you might find one that would fit.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 25, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> you should have a look into some of those dell and compaq sff power supplys. they do them in weird shapes you might find one that would fit.



I've looked at a few of them. The thin one is about 1-1/2". Same as a server psu. I have a 450w server psu and believe me, if I could get it in there I would have.

Here's a pic of the other 300w supply. It's new and didn't have any problem running everything but if I can I'm going to try to fit the Vector adaptor in there also. If not the Vector adaptor then I'll try to fit a 12v power brick inside. I don't have a mill. This is all done with a hacksaw, file, and cordless drill. Thermal management FTW!


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 25, 2009)

whats that wire?


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## Cuzza (Oct 25, 2009)

I think i've lost the plotline on this one, but its still entertaining.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 25, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> whats that wire?



It's the temp sensor for the fan control.



Cuzza said:


> I think i've lost the plotline on this one, but its still entertaining.



Plot? To cram as much power as I can in as little space as possible and not bust into flames.  It's 2.5" tall and runs Crysis on very high. Has everything except a HD tuner. A usb one will work fine for that.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 26, 2009)

Ok, now were getting somewhere. You know what sucks? When you remove a bridge rectifier to shorten it's legs then solder it back in backwards. -DOH!- I blew out a couple diodes in the primary of the supply but she's back up and running again. I'm doing some Prime95 tests now.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 26, 2009)

im surprised you didnt fry the power supply completely.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 26, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> im surprised you didnt fry the power supply completely.



The fuse popped before the surge made it to the mosfets. Lucky for me. The diodes that blew were two back to back zeners that fail shorted incase of a voltage spike from a power surge or something of that nature. It's by design to clamp the spike long enough to blow the fuse rather then have the mosfets exploding into a fireballs. They went through alot to keep the magic smoke inside.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 26, 2009)

I finally got to mounting a thin 3.5" hard drive to the case bottom. A standard thickness drive will fit but I had a thin Seagate 160gb so I used it to free up some room for the gfx fan intake. I need to order a 90 upwards facing sata cable. Sata power also faces 90 upwards. Shifting the drive a touch to the right made room (12mm) for more fans in the side of the case blowing in. I don't think I'll need them.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

New fans!


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 27, 2009)

i want to see this running


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 27, 2009)

like how the HDD looks in there, everything fits just perfect.  New fan looks good too!   i really wanna see this done already as well


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

It's taking so long because I can't decide on if I should just use the one 300w psu and use the extra space for it's heatsink or if I should use the space to add the extra 12v 150w auxiliary psu. Tonight I was fitting the 150w in there but I'll have to custom make 2 small heatsinks for it.

Pros and cons of adding the 150w.

Pros:
-gfx load removed from main psu
-main psu runs cooler

Cons:
-additional labor required to make the heatsinks for the aux psu. (it's a pain)
-main psu's heatsink will need to be reduced ~50-75%
-smaller fan for the main psu
-case fan not very effective in cooling the aux psu.

Here's the heatsink I would be using if I went with a single psu. I would cut out the center so the fan sits flush with the top of the fins. A hole would be cut in the bottom of the case. Doing it this way the main psu gets very good cooling but again, the aux psu is eliminated.

One great thing about doing it this way is that the case fan on the left front of the case would blow outwards and take the psu heat right out.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 27, 2009)

what about an external dc power brick like i plan to use they are easily tucked away behind the computer.


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 27, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> It's taking so long because I can't decide on if I should just use the one 300w psu and use the extra space for it's heatsink or if I should use the space to add the extra 12v 150w auxiliary psu. Tonight I was fitting the 150w in there but I'll have to custom make 2 small heatsinks for it.
> 
> Pros and cons of adding the 150w.
> 
> ...



meh, I think I would stick with single PSU man.  Seems to have twice as much cons than pros.  what do you think?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> what about an external dc power brick like i plan to use they are easily tucked away behind the computer.



I thought about it but I wanted an all in one system. It's sort of a PC gaming console if you think about it. The fewer wires the better.



Chicken Patty said:


> meh, I think I would stick with single PSU man.  Seems to have twice as much cons than pros.  what do you think?



I'm really leaning that way. It'll be a workout for a mATX supply (300w typically) but I can make a very effective cooling system for it as shown in the last pic I just posted. The extra 60mm fan plus the clear path right out of the case through the channel under the optical bay make for great cooling and keeping it ouf of the rest of the system. The main psu has it's own fan controller and under testing the fan never spun up unless it was under graphics intense load. CPU at 100% and the fan was slow. CPU+GPU at 100% and it speeds up. So it's quiet unless your gaming.


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## [Ion] (Oct 27, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I thought about it but I wanted an all in one system. It's sort of a PC gaming console if you think about it. The fewer wires the better.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really leaning that way. It'll be a workout for a mATX supply (300w typically) but I can make a very effective cooling system for it as shown in the last pic I just posted. The extra 60mm fan plus the clear path right out of the case through the channel under the optical bay make for great cooling and keeping it ouf of the rest of the system. The main psu has it's own fan controller and under testing the fan never spun up unless it was under graphics intense load. CPU at 100% and the fan was slow. CPU+GPU at 100% and it speeds up. So it's quiet unless your gaming.



As long as it's a quality power supply, I wouldn't worry about it.  The 300W PSU (FSP) that came in my Silverstone case has been verified by several people over at [H] to power a quad (Q9550) and a GTX 260 simultaneously (both loaded), so a quality 300W PSU would be plenty for an HD4850 and dual core


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 27, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I thought about it but I wanted an all in one system. It's sort of a PC gaming console if you think about it. The fewer wires the better.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really leaning that way. It'll be a workout for a mATX supply (300w typically) but I can make a very effective cooling system for it as shown in the last pic I just posted. The extra 60mm fan plus the clear path right out of the case through the channel under the optical bay make for great cooling and keeping it ouf of the rest of the system. The main psu has it's own fan controller and under testing the fan never spun up unless it was under graphics intense load. CPU at 100% and the fan was slow. CPU+GPU at 100% and it speeds up. So it's quiet unless your gaming.



Yeah, I was checking out the HS you had made for it.  I think you'll be fine and it'll be much less of a hassle.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

Here's the pic of option #2. You can see how small the fan and heatsink would have to be to make room for the 12v aux psu. Not to mention it's trapped in the middle with poor heat evacuation from the case. The heat just dumps into the middle of everything. I think the larger fan/heatsink will tremendously help keep all the case temps down due to how the side fan sucks it right out. I'll get the fan hole drilled tonight, fan mounted, and tomorrow I'll finish up the aluminum plate that attaches to it. The heatsink will just sort of lay hovering over the fan with a rubber bumper between the tips of the fins and the bottom of the case.

The second pic is the factory heatsinks. Granted it had a fan blowing right on it, it's definitly weaksauce compaired to what I'm doing.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

What do you guys know about this one? 19a on the 12v.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270463822507&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Power Specifications: 
+3.3V, 21A 
+5V, 23A 
+12V, 19A 
-12V, 0.6A  
+5Vsb, 2A






EDIT - And here's the new psu fan. I need a holesaw that DOESNT WOBBLE! >:O (I'll repaint this case when I'm done, you know, bondo a few holes  )


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

This morning I finished wiring up the psu. I added the 90 deg sata power connector and one molex for the optical drive. I also notched the heatsink in the bandsaw. Damn was that loud. Here's some pics of the heatsink. Like a glove.  Now I just need to attach it to the psu and that should be it.


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## [Ion] (Oct 27, 2009)

Looks good!


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 27, 2009)

[Ion] said:


> Looks good!



+1
@OP
but lets see this running 

regarding the PSU (the A-power) i wouldn't recommend it. It seems to be lacking in quality judging by the cheap price and no name company.Also if you look at the specs (amps) they seem to be alittle low for the wattage
by that i mean my 350w puts out 25a(10a+15a) on the 12v rails while that one only puts out 19a.


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## pantherx12 (Oct 27, 2009)

Just have to say i've been reading this thread for a while, looking great man.

If anything I would of thought a heatsink that size would eb over kill for a psu that size, its bigger then the heatsinks in my 750w!


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 27, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Just have to say i've been reading this thread for a while, looking great man.
> 
> If anything I would of thought a heatsink that size would eb over kill for a psu that size, its bigger then the heatsinks in my 750w!



there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to cooling in the PC world.(if there was would people be using LN2?)


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 27, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Just have to say i've been reading this thread for a while, looking great man.
> 
> If anything I would of thought a heatsink that size would eb over kill for a psu that size, its bigger then the heatsinks in my 750w!



Thanks for the props.  Your 750w probably has a 120mm fan moving alot of cfm. To move that amount of air with a 60mm fan it would be high rpm and very noisy. Using this heatsink I hope to have enough surface area to get rid of the heat without making so much noise. Passivly it was able to effectively cool the psu with only the computer as a load. With the psu in the case plus adding the gpu only makes it hotter but the 60mm fan pulling in outside air should be enough to make up for the extra heat. Remember this computer should be "livingroom quiet" except when gaming ofcorse.


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## BrooksyX (Oct 27, 2009)

looking good. like the progress so far.


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## Error 404 (Oct 27, 2009)

Lazzer88, brilliant build so far, I'm really impressed!
It reminds me of something me and my friend made in '08, basically a "free" computer in a shoebox.
I managed to find the thread it was in, I'm still surprised how good that thing looked...
It was basically just a PIII Celeron 733MHz, 256MB RAM, 10GB HDD, 120W mATX PSU, full size DVD drive, all crammed into a shoebox with a 40mm fan in the side for airflow (along with PSU fan).
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=887594&postcount=8
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=890814&postcount=19


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 27, 2009)

it does look sweet hope you get things worked out


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 27, 2009)

The heat sink looks great man, you did a heck of a job 

inspires me to do a small build, I've wanted to.  They seem soo much fun


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## pantherx12 (Oct 27, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to cooling in the PC world.(if there was would people be using LN2?)




True enough, I have freaken huge heatsinks on my graphics cards


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 27, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> True enough, I have freaken huge heatsinks on my graphics cards



what heatsinks you got? I know mine are huge also.(Xigmatek battle axe)


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## pantherx12 (Oct 27, 2009)

On my 3850 I have a Artic Cooling Acelero Twin turbo ( quite big)

On my 3870 I have a  HR-03 GT, I have my 3870 overclocked to 885 mhz and underload it doesn't go over 45, that's passive other then the True Ex sitting above it and my 80mm side fan.

It's a beast, I want another for the 3850 ( eventually upgrading two 5770s)


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 27, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> On my 3850 I have a Artic Cooling Acelero Twin turbo ( quite big)
> 
> On my 3870 I have a  HR-03 GT, I have my 3870 overclocked to 885 mhz and underload it doesn't go over 45, that's passive other then the True Ex sitting above it and my 80mm side fan.
> 
> It's a beast, I want another for the 3850 ( eventually upgrading two 5770s)



I have my 3870 overclocked@900 and voltmoded runs about 60c under full load


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

Well she's up and running. My TIG welding buddy is nowhere to be found so best I could do was whip up a quick bracket to attach the heatsink to the psu's 'spreader'. I'm having some thermal transfer issues though. I applied some compound between the plates but it wouldn't suprise me if one of them is warped slightly. It's not machined material it's just cold roll. I found the aluminum in my scrap bin after all. On the bright side, I have the bottom fan plugged into the psu's fan header and it's whisper quiet. I've been running Prime95 for an hour now and it hasn't spun up. The air from the heatsink is cold as is the heatsink itself and the little bracket I made is also cold although the spreader below it is warm. See pics.


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 28, 2009)

WOW, great job bro.  Glad it's working out.  Showing some skills there buddy


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## pantherx12 (Oct 28, 2009)

Could you make the top bracket thing one piece of metal?

See if you can get hold of some copper.


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 28, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Could you make the top bracket thing one piece of metal?
> 
> See if you can get hold of some copper.



hmm, good idea.  Copper should reduce temps even further, correct?


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## pantherx12 (Oct 28, 2009)

Its about twice as efficient at dissipating heat


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 28, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Its about twice as efficient at dissipating heat



hmm, that would be interesting.  Good thinking.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

Copper was the next option on my list but it's expencive. I figured I'll do it out of aluminum and if it's -that- bad I can go to copper and I'll already have patterns. The bottleneck is how narrow the thermal path gets because the main caps are in the way. I really need to stop touching those.  

The aluminum seems to be able to cool the mosfets but what does worry me is the coupled output inductor is HOT. Almost to hot to touch. There's little to no airflow around the other components of the supply.


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## p_o_s_pc (Oct 28, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Copper was the next option on my list but it's expencive. I figured I'll do it out of aluminum and if it's -that- bad I can go to copper and I'll already have patterns. The bottleneck is how narrow the thermal path gets because the main caps are in the way. I really need to stop touching those.
> 
> The aluminum seems to be able to cool the mosfets but what does worry me is the coupled output inductor is HOT. Almost to hot to touch. There's little to no airflow around the other components of the supply.



may have to rig another fan to get air to blow across the PSU then or you could rig up water cooling for it


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## Cuzza (Oct 28, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Its about twice as efficient at dissipating heat



Actually, it has about twice the thermal conductivity, which doesn't actually translate into twice the amount of heat being able to be moved. Dissipating the heat is a much more complex prospect, surface area, airflow etc must be taken into account. Also heat transfer coefficients are different, that is how well each metal releases heat into the air. And don't quote me on this but as I recall aluminium is actully better in that regard? Not sure.

Anyway, not that you were wrong, just thought I'd complicate matters.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> may have to rig another fan to get air to blow across the PSU then or you could rig up water cooling for it



riiiight.  It would need to be external and if thats the case I might as well put an atx supply in the pump box. I think it would only be 7 wires if I used some 12ga and stuck extra caps in the case and... damn it your making me think up more ideas. 

There's no more room for a fan near the psu. The best I could do in that respect is have all the other fans blowing out and drill holes in the case near the psu. If push comes to shove I'd rather just etch out a new pcb and make my own psu that custom fits the case. I really want to keep this self contained but a m-atx psu in a diy power brick would be the easiest.



Cuzza said:


> Actually, it has about twice the thermal conductivity, which doesn't actually translate into twice the amount of heat being able to be moved. Dissipating the heat is a much more complex prospect, surface area, airflow etc must be taken into account. Also heat transfer coefficients are different, that is how well each metal releases heat into the air. And don't quote me on this but as I recall aluminium is actully better in that regard? Not sure.
> 
> Anyway, not that you were wrong, just thought I'd complicate matters.



My heatsink is cold as a cucumber in January. The issue would be getting the heat to the heatsink in which case copper would be better suited.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

This is the problem inductor. Do to the height of the main transformer the psu has to go in the case this way to clear the videocard.






Now here's another power supply I has that I hadn't looked at before. Now I'm wishing I had. With the way it's laid out the inductor is on the other end. That might make it easier to cool. Also the main caps wouldn't get in the way of the head spreader and a nice wide spreader could be used to get to the heatsink.












EDIT - The transfering channel could be increased from 1-3/8" to 2-1/4" which is just 3/8 short of being the width of the heatsink plus have the choke in a position that makes it easier to cool. Damn this is taking forever to finish.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

My computer in the background is louder then this thing.  You can almost make out the harddrive clicking. Next time I'll take a vid in a quiet room with the tv playing low in the background or something.

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=mx0xoh&s=4


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## lilkiduno (Oct 28, 2009)

VERY nice set up Lazzer, to be honest i don't think i have the balls to take apart my PSU's...


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## Geofrancis (Oct 28, 2009)

i take it lazzer you have a lot of experience with high voltage electronics?


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## Cuzza (Oct 28, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> My heatsink is cold as a cucumber in January. The issue would be getting the heat to the heatsink in which case copper would be better suited.



agreed!


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

lilkiduno said:


> VERY nice set up Lazzer, to be honest i don't think i have the balls to take apart my PSU's...



Supplies are like anything. If you know what not to touch they can be safe to work with. There are LETHAL voltages in the psu even after you unplug them. Handle with care. 



Geofrancis said:


> i take it lazzer you have a lot of experience with high voltage electronics?



Yes actually. Experience is -exactly- what one should have when dealing with HV. Even with the experience I have I've already had one of the psu capacitors bite me. Bad capacitor!  Oh the worst was when I worked on an old tube linear amplifier for ham radio. The 400v supply had something like 2200uf worth of caps and well... You can't let go of what your holding on to until their discharged. That's DC for ya. Lucky for me I know to work one handed with HV. That one rule alone can save a life. It helps keep the electrical path out of your chest.

EDIT - Geo you reminded me to put a warning in the first post before someone starts "opening things" lol


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## Geofrancis (Oct 28, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Supplies are like anything. If you know what not to touch they can be safe to work with. There are LETHAL voltages in the psu even after you unplug them. Handle with care.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i have opened a few power supplies to change fans and been zapped by capacitors a couple of times. not fun


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 28, 2009)

Do you guys see any disadvantage to the bottom fan blowing outwards? It could be an advantage to have all the fans blowing out. The only case vents are on the gfx side. There is another slotted opening between the side fans but I'll be blocking it so the fans don't keep recirculating the air. Doing this would force all the cool intake air to flow to the gfx card and flow over the hdd. It may help the psu as well but it's pretty tight over there.
There's even an area above the io-shield about 1/2" wide that I could put a row of holes in. That would help the cpu get a little more cool air. So far the cpu temp hasn't been an issue.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 29, 2009)

Ok this is more like it. This is the 3rd power supply I'm testing. This looks like a winner. Not the location of the choke and if I reverse the psu fan it'll suck cool air right over the choke. This power supply allowed for a much wider channel to the heatsink as well. My welding buddy is still m.i.a. so I had to do with the bracket to attach the heatsink again. Just as well it's removable I guess.

I've modified this supply with schottky diodes for the 3 output rectifiers. The OEM used standard diodes.  To explain what this means. The forward drop across the standard diode is about 0.7v. I'f I'm pulling 10a through it that will be 0.7v*10=7w of heat. The schottky diodes have a 0.32v forward drop which would be 0.32*10a= 3.2w. That one diode is now >50% cooler.

This power supply's mosfets and diodes are flip flopped compaired to the other psu. This put the hotter diodes closer to the heatsink. The mosfets don't put out half the heat those diodes to. That should help some. The wiring harness is also relocated. It was a slight obstruction where it was near the gpu's fan intake. gpu airflow is now improved. Every little bit helps.

Time to solder on the wires.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 29, 2009)

Ok here's the first test results. The gpu is running 85c@84% fan. I have the video bios set to 100%@95c. It was 100%@108c from the factory. 85c is hotter then it was running a few days ago. I wonder if all the moving around losened the thermal compound. I'll have to check that. The psu is definitely warm. The heat just isn't making it to the heatsink (which is cold to the touch). Copper time? Heat pipes? I might make some heat pipes with freon and see how that works out.

Here's a pic and a screenshot. 

EDIT - The reason for 2 furmarks was to set the afinity for each core. It doesn't quite load the cpu like prime95 would and is a more accurate representation of gaming but having the gpu maxed out.


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## Chicken Patty (Oct 29, 2009)

looks good man, just gotta get the heat issue worked out


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## pantherx12 (Oct 29, 2009)

Wow gpu is certainly toasty!


As for heat pipes, may as-well just try copper for now, although I think even having a plate that completely covers the heat sink rather then only a little bit will help..

Sorry if my spelling or wording is wrong, not slept.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 29, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Wow gpu is certainly toasty!
> 
> 
> As for heat pipes, may as-well just try copper for now, although I think even having a plate that completely covers the heat sink rather then only a little bit will help..
> ...



The little plate covering the heatsink doesn't even get warm. The base on the heatsink is 1/4" thick so it should spread the heat ok once I get it there. It's a long way for heat to transfer through aluminum but it is transfering. If it wasn't the psu would have burned up by now. It's just a slow process. If it wasn't for this being switched mode, I'd just mount the mosfets right to the heatsink.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 29, 2009)

What do you guys think about this solution for the AC connector? It would get a strain-relief gromet ofcorse.


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## Cuzza (Oct 29, 2009)

I like the AC lead. might not be pretty, but when it's plugged in it's all the same.

I'm guessing the reason the heat isn't getting from the psu to the heatsink is that the connecting plate simply isn't making enough contact, ie it's just not big enough. Can you make one that's he same size as the two pieces it is connecting, so to cover them completely? Or maybe one long piece. Not so heavy that way. Something like this
(excuse my crappy shoop skills)





Mind you if you're going to that much trouble, perhaps it's better to just custom cut one single block. I suppose you've already thought of this but hey, i'm bored. Remember I said I lost the plot of this thread? Well I've picked it up again.


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## pantherx12 (Oct 29, 2009)

Aye I mentioned the same thing earlier.

Have you thought about getting some full copper heat sinks by the by?

I've seen ones that would suit your needs for around 10 pounds, if you can find them second hand even cheaper eh


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## Cuzza (Oct 29, 2009)

all this heatsink building has inspired me. I'm going to get on Sketchup and design me a custom heatsink for my Sega


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 29, 2009)

The piece in the middle is making contact. It's the aluminums thermal conduction rate that's any limiting factor. I didn't expect the whole assembly to be the same temperature. For now it's working good enough. Nothing gets to hot to touch except the graphics card. I'm sure that will fail in a few months due to thermal induced bga seperation but hey, thats planned obsolescence for ya.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

After a few days of testing and fiddling I've come to one conclusion. It's too #ukin' small! 

The top cover is only 1/4" from the top of the Intel cooler. This seriously effects the performance it. The NB is cooled by the airflow from the cpu fan and it's being effected even worse. I can't keep my finger on the NB heatsink after about 10min of prime95 with the top cover on. The PSU is acceptable. It's 'very warm' but not hot. I can keep my finger on it without feeling pain.

I keep telling myself "If this was moved there and that over here and these over there everything would work out". I should have build my own case having ALL the parts on hand. That way I'd know they would all fit.

One option is to cut the bottom out of the case and drop it down 1/2". There's a few advantages to going that route. It allows 3x more space above the cpu cooler, give more room under the videocard to fit a full thickness 3-1/2" hdd, and gives 1/2 more room for the power supply which would allow me to cut fins directly in the top of the aluminum plate 'heatpipe' I'm using for getting the heat to the psu heatsink. It would also allow me to use a 450w 1U server power supply. A PCIe extention will work out for the riser to make it back to the motherboard. Using a laptop harddrive, a double slot graphics card would fit. A 5870? 1/2" gets me a 5870?  That's already looking like a win.

Second option is to just make a new case about the same size as this one. I'd actually be using the front panel off this case, but, the power/reset buttons/LEDs and usb board are still in the way unless I make the case about 1/2" deeper. I guess I can make it w/e I need if I'm making it. lol

Any input? Mod this case or make a new one?


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## Cuzza (Oct 31, 2009)

Surely 5870 is far too long?!

Don't give up on what you've done so far man. I reckon you can figure this thing out without any drastic changes. Have you looked for a lower profile HSF for the processor? You could also cut back to a lower GHz chip if you can get hold of one, one of those low TDP pentiums (last resort!)

Also , more fans in the side of the case next to the CPU? Put a fan on the chipset.? just throwin ideas about.

Cuzza


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> Surely 5870 is far too long?!
> 
> Don't give up on what you've done so far man. I reckon you can figure this thing out without any drastic changes. Have you looked for a lower profile HSF for the processor? You could also cut back to a lower GHz chip if you can get hold of one, one of those low TDP pentiums (last resort!)
> 
> ...



All good ideas. Holes in the top cover would easily take care of the cpu cooling needs but I'd rather not have any openings in the top to keep dust and debris from falling in. The goal is to get the fastest ITX system in the smallest space. The case will only be what is _absolutely necessary_ to physically fit the components, _including _the power supply, a beefy graphics card, and maintain adequate cooling. The gpu should exhaust it's own heat. When I'm done the case will only be about 1/2 taller and 1/2" deeper and with that I can fit a 2 slot videocard, laptop hdd, and a 450w server psu.  The buttons/LEDs/USB will be relocated to the left hand side. I'll post a pic of the modified front view in a moment.

There seems to be a standard in powersupply pcb's for flex atx and 1U servers. They are 3.75" wide. The space between the motherboard and the case front is about 3.625". Then comes the issue of the buttons/LEDs/USBs in the way for mounting there. That is why the PSU is being crammed under the videocard currently. If I have to use a bare psu I'd rather put the heatsink under the videocard, because it's smaller, and the psu pcb under the optical bay.  

I'm drawing up something in paint now trying to take measurments and such for a CAD drawing later. The new case design will allow for 3x 60mm fans on the right side and one 60mm in the bottom for the psu if need be. The CPU will get it's own air from the rear of the case. I'll put up a pic of that plan also.

I'm happy with how things have worked out so far. I honestly thought the 300w psu would have popped during load testing but as hot as it was it survived. I'm afraid it's the long term abuse that will blow it out 6mo from now.


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## Geofrancis (Oct 31, 2009)

if its all working alright now with the case on then leave it till it pops. 

have you tried hooking a watt meter to see what your pulling from the psu?

those single slot 4850's run HOT damn hot and the fan goes like fuck i seen mine at over 8000rpm! its like a jet engine i can barely hear the tv because of it. thats why im running my computer without the case just now.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

This would be the new front panel. I'd reuse the billet aluminum existing front panel but 1/2" below it would be flat steel. This is where the buttons/leds/usb goes. The reason for relocating them is to make room under the optical bay for a 450w 1U supply. With the height of the case increased 1/2" it won't be a problem to fit this in the case. I'm probably not using this -exact- 1U supply. The other one I ordered is 320w and about 2" shorter then this one. That will allow a 2 slot graphics card to clear it on that end.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

Another option other then the 1U supply would be a flex-atx like this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sparkle-Power-S...QcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_UPS?hash=item587e71c71a

It is 5.9" long and would fit about so... Or like in the second pic. It's own fan would vent outside the case on the right side. Same side as the other 3 60mm fans I'll be adding. Note the CPU fan. The blue arrows above it are an intake vent at the back of the case. I'll show you then in a moment.


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## stevednmc (Oct 31, 2009)

Ive been following this thread for a while now and must say this is some sweet engineering!


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

To explain a bit better about the cpu intake...

Currently there is only 1/4" between the top of the Intel cooler and the case cover. The new case essentially has the bottom dropped 1/2" so this will make 3/4" of space. Plenty of room for an air duct. Here's a basic idea of how the duct will channel air to the cpu. The lines and cooler you see are hidden lines under the cover but show how the duct gets cool air to the cpu. Think of it shapped like a gpu cooler's plastic cover but the air is flowing the other direction.


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## _Zod_ (Oct 31, 2009)

Why not just vent the cover above the CPU?


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

_Zod_ said:


> Why not just vent the cover above the CPU?





Lazzer408 said:


> I'd rather not have any openings in the top to keep dust and debris from falling in.



I did mention it.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

Here's how the back view would look.


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## Cuzza (Oct 31, 2009)

cpu airduct is great idea


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

Here we go like this. This will be made out of steel then tacked on the top case cover. This forces the cpu cooler to get all of it's air from the rear of the case. It looks kinda big and probably is. In reality it will sit with the cpu fan slightly inside of the duct.


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## Lazzer408 (Oct 31, 2009)

Huston it's a go!

This morning I picked up a 12x11" 1/4" thick aluminum plate that will become the bottom of the new case. The top cover will be U shaped and slip over the sides of the computer and screw into holes in the side edges of the bottom plate. The cover will be aluminum as well and painted semi-flat black. The width is going to be a bit more then the faceplate from this g-atlanta case but I'll be making a new faceplate to cover the whole front rather then leave the 1/2" gap at the bottom. This allows me to use the old power button/LED assembly as well. Once everything is done and in place I'll remove the bottom plate and have small fins milled on each side.

The new specs:

-Standard Flex ATX power supply 320w
-Intel E6750 2.66@3.2ghz
-Standard height Intel stock cooler (rather then the shorty)
-HD5870 graphics card (double slot card) (HD4850 for now)
-3.5" standard hdd or 2x laptop hdds (hdds bolted to bottom plate for cooling)
-DVD-RW DL 8x slim optical drive
-2x front USB
-WiFi, LAN, HD audio, ect.

It will have a fresh air ducted rear CPU intake and 3x60mm thermally PWM controlled case fans blowing out opposite the gpu side. The gpu get's the cold air first and vents it's own hot air. There will be room for an additional 60mm fan in the bottom of the case that will be located directly below the regulator area of the videocard. Close enough that the gpu fan should get a nice blast of fresh air from that fan. The PSU has it's own internal quiet fan and vents it's own hot air. The CPU is the only heat generating component that does not vent it's own hot air but it located 1/2" from 2 of the 60mm fans.

I should have some pics up later today. I'm heading to the shop now to mill my baseplate to spec and bend my new top cover.


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## _Zod_ (Oct 31, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I did mention it.



You could filter it, it's not really a big deal unless you planned on stacking crap on top of the unit which would be unwise anyway. But I see you rather enjoy doing things the hard way


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## [Ion] (Oct 31, 2009)

Awesome, this looks sweet, I can't wait to see how this turns out.  I want something smaller than the SG05, it's too big IMO


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## pantherx12 (Oct 31, 2009)

I do love this build, but I'm so impatient, I just love seeing the new pictures!

Looking forward to the next set.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

Have to start somewhere.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

The pattern is transfered then the plate is drilled and tapped. It uses standard brass stand-offs but for now these plastic clip in ones will come in handy.


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## MilkyWay (Nov 1, 2009)

so your fixing the case to fit the cooler right? i dont quite understand man


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

MilkyWay said:


> so your fixing the case to fit the cooler right? i dont quite understand man



Sorry, I've been all over the place with this project. 

I'm building a new case from scratch. It's -about- 5/8" taller, 1/8" wider, and 1-1/4" deeper then the black G-Atlanta case you see in most of the pics. The height change was to allow for double slot graphics cards, full size 3-1/2" hdd, better cpu cooling, and a Flex-ATX/1U power supply. The depth change was also to make room for Flex-ATX/1U power supplies ranging from 200w to 450w.  The width change of 1/8" was to allow side fans on the left side if needed and put the total width at 12".

The aluminum plate in the last pic is the bottom of the case. Essentially what I'm doing is building this from the inside out to be as small as possible.


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## MilkyWay (Nov 1, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Sorry, I've been all over the place with this project.
> 
> I'm building a new case from scratch. It's -about- 5/8" taller, 1/8" wider, and 1-1/4" deeper then the black G-Atlanta case you see in most of the pics. The height change was to allow for double slot graphics cards, full size 3-1/2" hdd, better cpu cooling, and a Flex-ATX/1U power supply. The depth change was also to make room for Flex-ATX/1U power supplies ranging from 200w to 450w.  The width change of 1/8" was to allow side fans on the left side if needed and put the total width at 12".
> 
> The aluminum plate in the last pic is the bottom of the case. Essentially what I'm doing is building this from the inside out to be as small as possible.



okay i understand sounds good to me, im keeping an eye out

i was interested at the start then i lost it a bit rofl but thanks for clearing it up for me


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

Hard drive mounted with the screws recessed in the bottom. HD4870 double slot card shown. No modification will need to be done to the card's cooler. You can see that the intake for the graphics card is -slightly- blocked but that's only the edge of the intake and there's still 3/16" between the card and the hdd. There's a 60mm fan behind the hdd directly below the card to feed it some cool air. Remember the case fans on the other side of the case are blowing out and the whole videocard side of the case cover will be slotted. Major cool airflow to the graphics card. There's plenty of room for it's power connectors at the front of the case. There is over 7-1/2" in lenght for the Flex-ATX/1U power supply. No more modifying powersupplies! \/


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

Now obviously with the videocard raised I need to extend the pcie port. Here are some options. A port extention to use the riser card I have, or just a flex riser.


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## Geofrancis (Nov 1, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Now obviously with the videocard raised I need to extend the pcie port. Here are some options. A port extention to use the riser card I have, or just a flex riser.
> 
> http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30210&stc=1&d=1257060263
> 
> ...



because you are sitting the card horizontally i would use the solid pci-e riser because you wont have much support on the slotside of the graphics card unless you can find some way of propping it up.

on the other hand the flexible riser will let you fit the card how you want rather than building the case around the size of the pci-e riser you can just bend it to size and there is also screw holes on the flexible riser so you could fix it to the case somewhere so that its as secure as the solid one.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

Fellow modders, how about some input on something?

I measured up for the riser extension and this computer is slowly working it's way to being bulky. I'm trying to keep it thin. I want this case to be as slim as possible. Here's the deal. If I don't use the riser extention I can still fit a double slot videocard but I'll have to use a laptop harddrive. Not a -huge- issue but it does add more cost since I don't have a good laptop drive. With a single slot card a 3.5" drive would fit fine but I'd still need the gpu heat duct mod. Staying skinny brings me back to the cpu cooling problem with the top of the case so close to the fan. Fans just don't work for $#!^ when something flat is close to it's intake. One option for cpu cooling would be a different heatsink/fan. If you've been watching Cuzza's thread, I could make a heatsink like that for this motherboard. It would easily take 1/2" off the cpu cooler height and cool the northbridge as well. My cpu duct would work with that system while still keeping the case thin. But again, time and money.

I just want people to see this thing and say "damn that's tiny" then really impress them with the gaming performance. Most people assume ITX systems and gaming can't be used in the same sentance unless it's a big ugly cube box. (sorry geo. lol) I'd like that sleek media center look but with POWAH! 

When designing I try to think about everything from a retail standpoint. If I wanted to manufacture this as a complete system, for retail market, it would not be wise to have to custom modify any components. It should accept as many stock components as possible. It should support the "latest and greatest" graphics cards (x2 cards being the exception), support the fastest quad core (while keeping it cool) and alowing for mild overclocking, and use a standard size powersupply. ATX, Flex, SFX, 1U, ect.

So I guess my question is. Do I build this case from scratch for maximum performance (5870, core2quad) and the size just is what it is? Or should I cut back a bit on performance (4850, core2duo), keep the little case, have to do all the mods, and have to underclock everything to keep it cool? Keep in mind I might have to be building 5 of these. I'd like not to have to hand-mod them all.


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## Cuzza (Nov 1, 2009)

Well, if you are capable of scratch building the case, that seems like definitely the best option to me.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

I think I got it. I can keep the height at 3" (less the feet).  From the top of the aluminum plate to the top edge of my riser card is 2-11/16". If I go with a 1/8" base plate (like in my drawing) then the total height from the bottom of the case to the top of the riser would be 2-13/16". Add the 1/16" thickness of the cover and a 1/8" gap between it and the riser I'll wind up at 3" tall. Booyah!
I had to make shorter stand-offs for the motherboard.  I may have to saw off 1/16" of the riser extension though. I'm not sure the print of it scaled well. It looks wrong but w/e. I can always go the flex riser route. That's not an issue.

Oh, I tested the Intel's fan by placing a piece of cardboard close to the top. Anything >1/4" doesn't have too much effect on it but <1/4" and the airflow just about stops. Crazy aerodynamics. With the layout now I'll have 1/2" above it for my intake duct.






Check out these nice feet I yanked off a junked Sansui CD player.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

[Ion] said:


> Awesome, this looks sweet, I can't wait to see how this turns out.  I want something smaller than the SG05, it's too big IMO



Ion I ment to get back to you. I took a look the SG05. :shadedshu I remember seeing that one when I was on my hunt. The cube cases just don't work for me. I like something that looks more like a/v equipment. Unfortunatly there just aren't any options to cram a powersupply in one without serious modifications but...      ...to be continued.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

Here's the mock-up case. This one was welded/tacked together. I like to see things fit into place and not just rely on measurements. This is just a prototype. The final will be bent into shape, and straight. 

Putting the two side by side it really isn't that much bigger but the size adjustments allow for a "normal" psu, double slot full lenght graphics card,  standard 3.5" hdd, and a ducted fan intake for the cpu. I kept fighting that G-Atlanta case trying to mod everything and squeeze it all in wishing I had just a _little_ more space. I need to pick up some rubber gromets for mounting the drive. The aluminum bottom really transfers the head movement noise.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 1, 2009)

Looks really nice man!


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Looks really nice man!



Thanks man. Takes time but I'll get what I want. bwahaha


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## Error 404 (Nov 1, 2009)

Have you considered flipping the hard drive over so that it can use the bottom of the case as a heat spreader? It looks like its going to get awfully cozy next to that 4870...


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 1, 2009)

Error 404 said:


> Have you considered flipping the hard drive over so that it can use the bottom of the case as a heat spreader? It looks like its going to get awfully cozy next to that 4870...



The airflow into the case is from that side so cool air will be flowing right between the videocard and hdd. The bottom plate is aluminum and will take some heat away but not much. Actually... I have to mount the drive on rubber so there wouldn't be any contact with anything. I hept an eye, or finger rather, on the drive when I was testing the other case. It wasn't any hotter then my desktop.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 1, 2009)

By the by, found a copper heatsink that might be handy if you ever want to upgrade the PSU cooling
http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_2624.html

I imagine you could find one like it for cheaper


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## Geofrancis (Nov 2, 2009)

when you say your putting a full sized power supply in it do u mean full sized atx / micro atx with the case still on it or just the pcb like before?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> when you say your putting a full sized power supply in it do u mean full sized atx / micro atx with the case still on it or just the pcb like before?



A Flex ATX or 1U server supply.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

This isn't another variation to my project.  I was just considering options for thin computers. It wouldn't be hard to make this heatsink out of extruded fin-stock and passively cool the cpu and chipset. Ignore the circle. With fans pulling air through the case, the top of the case almost against the tips of the heatsink fins, and the fins themselfs 1.5" long, There would be good airflow through this design. Add my 4-pin PWM circuit to control the case fans and it would be a sweet setup. A low profile cooler could certainly be used but good luck overclocking.  Aside from my Gaming HTPC build, I'm still keeping the G-Atlanta in mind for someone, like [Ion], who was looking for something small and powerfull.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 2, 2009)

Hey just have to say this thread has inspired me to build my own mini PC.

Going to go With M-ATX instead and quite a different layout.

Won't be able to for a while due to low funds but still


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Hey just have to say this thread has inspired me to build my own mini PC.
> 
> Going to go With M-ATX instead and quite a different layout.
> 
> Won't be able to for a while due to low funds but still



This thread shows the potential that a SFF computer can have but it took hours to find the right combination of components and mods to make it work. If you go with the G-Atlanta case I can vouch for a few things. You CAN fit a double slot graphics card in the case IF you use a laptop harddrive and attach it to the bottom below the card. If you use a single slot card you will have cooling issues due to how the single slot cards vent into the case but a full 3.5" hdd will fit below it. The stock Intel cooler will fit but you'll want to put some holes in the top cover or use a low profile cooler.

The ONLY powersupply that I found that can cram under the optical bay is this one.

http://www.sparklepower.com/pdf/SPI250F4BB.pdf

81.5x40.5x150mm  (3.21x1.6x5.9")

250w 80+
5v      16a
3.3v   14a
+5sb  3a
-12    0.3a
12v1 15a
12v2 15a

And here's the case.

http://www.g-alantic.com.tw/g-ga630ibk.htm

There are two versions of the case. Make sure to specify the 2 slot version and don't forget to grab a GA620RSE PCIe riser and SATA adaptor if you use a SATA slim optical drive.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 2, 2009)

I might try and build the case from scratch, I can't imagine it be to insanely difficult.

Its the only way I'm going to be able to build it how I've envision it in my head.

I'll draw a rough sketch and upload it later on actually : ]
I'll think you'll like what I plan on doing with the the graphics : ]


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> I might try and build the case from scratch, I can't imagine it be to insanely difficult.
> 
> Its the only way I'm going to be able to build it how I've envision it in my head.
> 
> ...



Alright cool. Looking forward to it. Had If I had any artistic talent I'd try and make something fancy but I'm limited to function with no form. 

EDIT - Oh btw. This is a free and easy CAD program that has the feel of Microsoft paint.

http://www.cadstd.com


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## pantherx12 (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks that will be really useful.

Drawing by hand is hard haha


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

Did I ever mention I have WAY too much time on my hands?  I didn't exactly have a hunk of extruded fin heatsink stock to cut up, so, I made this out of 4 AMD ones. Finally, AMD hardware that's good for something. Like cooling my Intel!  Curiosity killed the cat and I'm dying to try this. I bet a thin 120mm fan would work wonders. 

NO it's not photo-shopped this time.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 2, 2009)

What the hell! HA HA HA

That's so OTT its amazing 

be sure to stick some plastic to areas that might touch other bits and short stuff out!


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 2, 2009)

how did you get those heatsinks together? Also AMD hardware is good for more then just cooling your Intel.(if you didn't know all my new(er) rigs are AMD and no i'm not a fanboy)


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## pantherx12 (Nov 2, 2009)

By the by, I have a copper block you could use on the bit that makes contact to the CPU.

Can have it for free if you do : ]


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> how did you get those heatsinks together? Also AMD hardware is good for more then just cooling your Intel.(if you didn't know all my new(er) rigs are AMD and no i'm not a fanboy)



Don't you see all the bolts on the back? I drilled and tapped the heatsinks then counter-sunk bolted them to a 1/4" plate. It's all I had on hand.



pantherx12 said:


> By the by, I have a copper block you could use on the bit that makes contact to the CPU.
> 
> Can have it for free if you do : ]



Got a pic?


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## pantherx12 (Nov 2, 2009)

Not at the moment, will take one tomorow when its light ( and my camera works)

Its from an old AMD system, the procs that were huge without IHS, it has fins embeded in it so you may have to sand it for best results. ( after removing the fins)


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

o-harddrive-o
el-shutup-o
hardware store-o
for gromet-o
-sings-


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 2, 2009)

This thing is just too crazy. lol I'm going to need a few shims to make it work since I dont have any way to mill out the base of the heatsink. =( I'll probably put it off for now. I just had to see it.


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## Chicken Patty (Nov 2, 2009)

Hi buddy, I had some freaking issues with the PC and was not following my subscriptions much.  Are you planning on putting one huge heatsink on top of the mainboard/components?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 3, 2009)

Chicken Patty said:


> Hi buddy, I had some freaking issues with the PC and was not following my subscriptions much.  Are you planning on putting one huge heatsink on top of the mainboard/components?



What gave you that idea? The 2lb finned aluminum hunk of wtf? 

It's starting to look like this. I had an oops and put a screw in the way. I'll fill it and redrill it later. This is just a mock-up. I was curious how well it would work if it was passivly cooled. The damn northbridge pad fell about .030" short of the chip. I'll have to fix that before I can try it. Either that or notch it out for the NB. hmm, maybe I'll just do that for now.


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## Cuzza (Nov 3, 2009)

Do you have TIM all over those heatsinks where they meet the bottom plate?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 3, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> Do you have TIM all over those heatsinks where they meet the bottom plate?



Not at the moment. They will though. The little 1" cube for the NB doesn't have to be removed to take everything apart so I goop'd it.


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## Chicken Patty (Nov 3, 2009)

I can't wait to see how you pull this one off dude


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 3, 2009)

$hit it just dawned on me what I should have done. *slaps forehead. The reason I needed the spacer on the cpu was because the caps for the regulator were higher then the top of the chip. Obviously the NB still needs a spacer because it sits lower on the board but that's in place already. If I had heatsink stock I'd just have the shop mill a slot for the caps. Since this is made up of 4 heatsinks bolted to a plate, I could have just notched the plate or drilled holes where the caps are. I can probably still do that.

I'm just killing time until my parts get here but hey, if this works good I'll use it.


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## Error 404 (Nov 3, 2009)

Judging by how thick the plates/layers of metal are, I don't think you'll see very good performance unless you embed some heatpipes in the contact blocks running into the fins, which would probably improve the cooling remarkably. Having that much aluminium between the CPU and the fins just doesn't look like its going to work.


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## Cuzza (Nov 3, 2009)

Error 404 said:


> Judging by how thick the plates/layers of metal are, I don't think you'll see very good performance unless you embed some heatpipes in the contact blocks running into the fins, which would probably improve the cooling remarkably. Having that much aluminium between the CPU and the fins just doesn't look like its going to work.



I disagree. More metal shouldn't make a difference.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 3, 2009)

More metal holds more thermal enegry hot or cold. Picture a solid block of aluminum against the cpu. How long will that take to heat up? It's going to take awhile. Same goes for cooling it down to. It will hold heat longer. At that point it's the surface area of the fins and the airflow that will determine how well it can dissipate heat.

Where do you suggest I put heatpipes?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 3, 2009)

yeh! Suck it bitc...  I mean... The airduct idea works wonderfully.


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## Error 404 (Nov 3, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> More metal holds more thermal enegry hot or cold. Picture a solid block of aluminum against the cpu. How long will that take to heat up? It's going to take awhile. Same goes for cooling it down to. It will hold heat longer. At that point it's the surface area of the fins and the airflow that will determine how well it can dissipate heat.
> 
> Where do you suggest I put heatpipes?



There's a difference between a solid block of metal and the layers of metal you've constructed.  I might be wrong, but just like the boundary between CPU and heatsink (which is why thermal paste was invented), the thermal conductivity will be reduced markedly because of those boundary layers.
This is why I suggested heatpipes; if you embed a number of heatpipes in the CPU contact block (like a HDT cooler) and then ran them up through the fins, you'd get much better cooling, because it bypasses the layers.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 3, 2009)

Error 404 said:


> There's a difference between a solid block of metal and the layers of metal you've constructed.  I might be wrong, but just like the boundary between CPU and heatsink (which is why thermal paste was invented), the thermal conductivity will be reduced markedly because of those boundary layers.
> This is why I suggested heatpipes; if you embed a number of heatpipes in the CPU contact block (like a HDT cooler) and then ran them up through the fins, you'd get much better cooling, because it bypasses the layers.



There's more surface area contact between the plate and the heatsinks (about 22") then there is between the plate and the cpu (about 1.7"). The fins on my heatsink are neither thin enough nor large enough in area to justify heatpipes. If the fins were .020" thick and 4" tall then yes heatpipes would be required. Heatpipies are used when the fins are thin and the fin's area is so large that the fin itself can not conduct the heat through it's body. Thin fin commercial heatsinks use a high quantity of very thin fins to get more surface area. The fin alone can not conduct the heat so heatpipes must be used to get the heat to them. 

I appreciate the input though. I understand what your saying. I just wouldn't benifit due to the short height and larger thickness of my fins.

EDIT - What would work great is something like this. This one it to high though.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 3, 2009)

Could you mod a smaller GPU heatsink?

A small Zalman perhaps.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 4, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Could you mod a smaller GPU heatsink?
> 
> A small Zalman perhaps.



I dunno. Maybe. I could just buy a low profile cooler. The cpu fan wasn't really an issue. It was with the G-Atlanta case but not with mine. The duct works well and gives the cpu it's own air anyways. The advantage to passive cooling was the smaller coolers tend to be a bit noisy.

Did you get a pic of that cooler? Or can you send me a link to one?

On another note...

The 3 case fans are in. On high you can hear them across the room and the'll blow out a flame 12" away. At reduced speed they're whisper quiet and the breeze can be felt by hand 12" away so they're still moving a fair amount of air. I ran out of fan grills.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 4, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Could you mod a smaller GPU heatsink?
> 
> A small Zalman perhaps.



Hey panther, is it anything like this?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 4, 2009)

I just had to know and powered up the computer using the taller of the two Intel coolers, with it's fan removed.  It's clocked at 3ghz. Stock voltage. With the case fans at full speed the cpu idle temp is 40c. This is after 30min of idling. NB is 41c which is 14c lower then is usually idles at 55c. Stock clock idle is cpu 37c, nb 41c. The airflow across the board had quiet an effect on the NB. The Intel cooler isn't that efficient having the airflow sideways like this. With a large parallel-fin heatsink the temps would be very realistic. Another thing I might try is using the large Intel cooler, no cpu fan, with my heatduct. With fewer or no holes in the case, on the oppisite side of the case fans, the air only has one way in and thats right into the cpu cooler.

I should try my 4-pin adapter! brb.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 4, 2009)

I've misplaced my camera actually.

That heatsink you posted looks like an advance version of the heatsink I have.

Heatpipes better construction etc.



Az for zalman coolers in particular I meant ones like this

http://watercooled-pcs.co.uk/images/detailed_images/detailed_image_1541.jpg

They're quite quiet.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 5, 2009)

I started on the cpu intake duct today. This is how it turned out. I can use the tall Intel cooler without a fan, or the short one with a fan.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 5, 2009)

Quick temperature update after some testing. Both tests were done without a fan mounted to the cpu's heatsink. Larger Intel heatsink used for both tests.

Without cpu duct, 3 fans@100%
2.66ghz: cpu 37c / mcp 41c
3.0ghz: cpu 40c / mcp 41c

With cpu duct, 2 fans@100%
2.66ghz: cpu 28c / mcp 39c (difference cpu 9c / mcp 2c)
3.0ghz: cpu 29c / mcp 40c (difference cpu 11c / mcp 1c)

With cpu duct, 3 fans@100%
2.66ghz: cpu 25c / mcp 37c (difference cpu 12c / mcp 4c)
3.0ghz: cpu 27c / mcp 38c (difference cpu 12c / mcp 3c)

Adding the 3rd fan was good for another 3c off the cpu and 2c off the mcp.


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## Chicken Patty (Nov 5, 2009)

tight fit, but good job on the duct.   Temps are great bro


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## Geofrancis (Nov 5, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Quick temperature update after some testing. Both tests were done without a fan mounted to the cpu's heatsink. Larger Intel heatsink used for both tests.
> 
> Without cpu duct, 3 fans@100%
> 2.66ghz: cpu 37c / mcp 41c
> ...



were those idle or load temps?


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## Cuzza (Nov 5, 2009)

fans loud?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 5, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> were those idle or load temps?



Those are all idle temps. I'm doing a Prime95 load test now. Sitting at 51c after 20min. I'll let it run awhile.



Cuzza said:


> fans loud?



It's hard to tell. I can hear them but the powersupply is louder. It's not the supply I'm going to use though. It's just being used for testing.


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## Cuzza (Nov 5, 2009)

Well, those temps are low so you can defnitely slow them down.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 5, 2009)

The most the cpu has peaked at so far is (EDIT) 59c. It's floating around 55~57. There's really nothing to heat soak with the way it's designed so I can probably say that's a stable reading. Ambiant is 23c. I'm happy with the cpu at 65c or lower.

When the videocard is installed it brings up a few thoughts...
The case fans are creating a negitive pressure in the case. The videocard's fan has to fight that. This could raise the videocard's temp or make it's fan run faster. On the plus side, this adds additional flow into the cpu since the cpu duct is the only way in. On the down side, the videocard is sucking in warm air. If I put vent slits on the left side, the videocard will get cool air but this drops the pressure in the case and the cpu will loose flow.

Options...
I can fit the smaller Intel cooler, with it's fan, in the duct. This maintains flow over the cpu but it's not a very good cooler for overclocking. Another option is to mount the hard drive above the videocard and put a hole in the bottom of the case with foam sealing against the videocard's intake. This keeps the videocard completely isolated but makes hdd mounting a bit more difficult. It does make the hdd alot easier to replace.

Thoughts?

Oh and by the way. I'm just splitting hairs while I wait for my parts. lol



Cuzza said:


> Well, those temps are low so you can defnitely slow them down.



Agreed. They will be PWM controlled by the mobo when it's finished.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 5, 2009)

I bet I can cram one of these in the front panel.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 5, 2009)

> With cpu duct, 3 fans@100%
> 2.66ghz: cpu 25c / mcp 37c (difference cpu 12c / mcp 4c)
> 3.0ghz: cpu 27c / mcp 38c (difference cpu 12c / mcp 3c)



These results were using the large Intel cooler with no fan (the one on the right). Using the Intel cooler on the left _WITH _a fan I'm idling at 30c with a 3ghz clock. Under Prime95 it's about the same as the large one with no fan at 59c peak. Could be a solution if the videocard screws up the airflow. If the videocard doesn't create any issues I might as well save the noise and just use the large cooler with no fan. Anyone seen a round cooler like that out of copper?


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## xBruce88x (Nov 5, 2009)

could you mod one of the zalman copper coolers that lay down? (hacksaw lol) the fan is 110mm to give you an idea of size

cut right where the part is where it goes the the wider size... this should also cut off the outer ring that's raised up making it fit in the case better. I know its a waste copper....

see attached images

... here's a version with a 92mm fan instead... it might have a better chance of fitting with less hacksawing... and its about $25 instead of $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118047


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## Cuzza (Nov 5, 2009)

fins on those zalmans are thin. cut em with snips, no hacksaw needed


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## pantherx12 (Nov 5, 2009)

I say give the video card its own independant air supply.

It's what I plan on doing when I get round to my version of this, it makes the most sense in my head.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

Powersupply showed up. Modding now.


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## Chicken Patty (Nov 6, 2009)

keep us posted lazzer


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

This psu will work fine for the prototype and testing but I really need to get that SPI300 ordered. That's the 300w +80 PFC supply.

I believe the best route with _everything_ considered is ditching the airduct, leave the slits in the rear, slit the left side, and use a cpu cooler with a fan. The cpu duct slightly blocked the rear-most fan so without it the fan will flow more efficiently. With 3 case fans keeping the air moving I think it'll be fine. I'm going to throttle the case fans to a level I can barely hear across the room and get some temps. I'll post shortly.

I plan to make a few of these to sell. Maybe make a few bucks on the side. The less custom fab work the better. No duct means the end user can choose whatever fan works best for them. Maybe the Intel one is enough, maybe the Zalman Bruce suggested would work well, or perhapse the 120mm Scythe Shuriken low profile cooler? I'll leave it up to the end user to decide as long as the stock Intel cooler can keep stock clocks at less then 55~60c and 60~65 on a light overclock. Does that sound reasonable?

Alot of these ideas are cool and some are practical, to some degree (pun intended), but is 5 or 10c worth all the extra time and cost as long as the cpu is opperating within a safe range?


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## Chicken Patty (Nov 6, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> This psu will work fine for the prototype and testing but I really need to get that SPI300 ordered. That's the 300w +80 PFC supply.
> 
> I believe the best route with _everything_ considered is ditching the airduct, leave the slits in the rear, slit the left side, and use a cpu cooler with a fan. The cpu duct slightly blocked the rear-most fan so without it the fan will flow more efficiently. With 3 case fans keeping the air moving I think it'll be fine. I'm going to throttle the case fans to a level I can barely hear across the room and get some temps. I'll post shortly.
> 
> ...



I get what you are saying.  A build like this is not meant to be a high performer.  As long as it can run stock clocks fine you have yourself a winner.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

Chicken Patty said:


> I get what you are saying.  A build like this is not meant to be a high performer.  As long as it can run stock clocks fine you have yourself a winner.



On the contrary. The point of the build was to make a high performance small form factor computer. The fact that accepts a full size videocard and has an a/v component look to it should be inviting on it's own. Then add the fact it has an internal psu capable of powering the gpu, a quad with a slight overclock, uses a standard cheap hdd, while keeping it all cool? That's the winner.


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## Chicken Patty (Nov 6, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> On the contrary. The point of the build was to make a high performance small form factor computer. The fact that accepts a full size videocard and has an a/v component look to it should be inviting on it's own. Then add the fact it has an internal psu capable of powering the gpu, a quad with a slight overclock, uses a standard cheap hdd, while keeping it all cool? That's the winner.



Well yeah.  What I meant was if it runs and stays cool then awesome.  but if you are able to get a overclock out of it and manage to keep it cool, then even better.  Even at stock clocks, its still a performance small form factor computer.  Components determine that


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

Using the small Intel cooler, no duct, no overclock, fans on a very-very low speed (can't hear them 3 feet away).
I'm sitting idle at cpu 33c / mcp 45c. PWM control ofcorse. Bios set to throttle it up at 50c. Rear vent only, no gpu, no left-side slits.
At 3ghz overclock cpu 34c / mcp 46c. Same conditions as above.

-EDIT-
Stock clock Prime95 peak temp hit 60c. 57c average.
Overclock Prime95 peak temp hit 62c. 57c average.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

You have no idea how tired I am getting from wiring up power supplies.  I still have the 6-pin gpu and sata to do. This one here is a 350w "server grade" active PFC. PFC will take away some efficiency but hopefully doesn't add to much extras heat. Yes PFC _LOWERS _the efficiency of a supply. I'll probably put a fan inside near the supply.

I wonder if it would help any to put the fans on the left side. I'll have to turn the cover around and try that some time. 

mmm yummy power.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

If I can fit 70mm fans in the case, am I better off with 2 70s or 3 60s? These are 70mm off AMD coolers. They are hella fast if need be.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

depends on the CFM ratings, like if the amd's do 25cfm each and the 60mm do 20cfm, then the 3 60mm would be better.


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## Cuzza (Nov 6, 2009)

Tough choice. I say 3 x 60s will look cooler!


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## pantherx12 (Nov 6, 2009)

I say depends on DB levels.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

i found something that might work for you if you decided to go with the large intel heatsink again... 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835119067




It has a 42CFM rating at <26dBa. but instead of air coming into the case from your air duct it would pull air out of the case out the back of your air duct. i don't know if that would make things easy or worse for you as far as airflow and noise goes.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> I say depends on DB levels.


That's why I originally went with the 60s over the 50s that were in the G-Atlantic case. A larger fan can turn slower and quieter to move the same cfm. I may just use 2 70s if it works. I'm just ironing out details and weighing the pros and cons of everything. If I don't I'll wind up with a pile of cases in the scrap corner. 



xBruce88x said:


> i found something that might work for you if you decided to go with the large intel heatsink again...
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835119067
> http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/35-119-067-03.jpg
> It has a 42CFM rating at <26dBa. but instead of air coming into the case from your air duct it would pull air out of the case out the back of your air duct. i don't know if that would make things easy or worse for you as far as airflow and noise goes.



The thought crossed my mind of actually sucking the air up the Intel heatsink then out the rear slot. I had the idea staring at a dead 8800 laying on the floor. lol I didn't know there was a retail fan like that other then slot coolers to mount in an expansion slot. If cpu heat does become an issue that fan is most certainly an option. Thanks for that. 

The main problem is what it has always been and that's keeping a powersupply cool. The SPI300 psu (I need to order) has it's own fan and will actually fit in my case while staying in it's own chassis. I'm doodling up some drawings by hand to help visualize the airflow to and from the psu.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

i remember working on a lot of the SFF dell optiplexes and their power supplies had blowers as well. maybe a small blower for the powersupply would work?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

I did find this spiffy little input module for power. This would mount below the gfx card in back. Inside the case would be a cable ran from the CMF6 to the SPI300 3-pin ac input. No wiring trouble for an end user.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

wow that is pretty sweet.

is this the type of powersupply you're using? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338042

o.o i dunno if this will fit with your video card, but i think your cooling problem would be solved with it! and it has a nice 16A 12v rail.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339004


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

xBruce88x said:


> i remember working on a lot of the SFF dell optiplexes and their power supplies had blowers as well. maybe a small blower for the powersupply would work?



That's a good idea if the SPI300's fan became too anoying. It would require modifying the opening of the psu but if the case came supplied with a psu, which it probably will be, then it's not too big a deal.

Is anyone interested enough to consider buying something like this?



xBruce88x said:


> wow that is pretty sweet.
> 
> is this the type of powersupply you're using? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338042
> 
> ...



Close. The AP-MFATX30 is the same size as the SPI300F4BB. The HEC250SRT wouldn't fit. The SPI300 is rated to have 15a 12v1 and 15a 12v2. Not at the same time ofcorse. Internally they all only have one 12v rail. I think it's a bit deceiving the way psu manufactures use the term. Reguardless. One 16a 12v rail is 192w worth.
http://www.sparklepower.com/pdf/SPI300F4BB.pdf


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

ah ok.

well one last idea for powersupplies then... at least the last i could think of right now...
could you tack little chipset fans to the heat spreaders of the powersupply? kinda like these...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103155

i guess these would also help... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108096


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

xBruce88x said:


> ah ok.
> 
> well one last idea for powersupplies then... at least the last i could think of right now...
> could you tack little chipset fans to the heat spreaders of the powersupply? kinda like these...
> ...



Probably.  I'm trying to stay away from modding things. It was easier to make a new case to fit the smallest standard components I could find.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

lol yea i forgot you tried that already...

oh i google'd SPI300F4BB and your response to what i posted about the other power supply is already on the results list lol


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 6, 2009)

xBruce88x said:


> lol yea i forgot you tried that already...
> 
> oh i google'd SPI300F4BB and your response to what i posted about the other power supply is already on the results list lol



I've noticed that. TPU seems to come up quite often when I'm Googling "tech stuffs". -Gives Google a cookie- Good google.

That little heatsink actually worked well. I was so bent on the dual supply setup for awhile. I could do it easily now with the extra 1/2" height I added but I'm going to immediately digress from the thought before another month goes by. lol


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## xBruce88x (Nov 6, 2009)

haha yea good idea, well i guess an easy mod would be to get a deeper fan for more airflow and less/same noise at the same time for that power supply and longer screws to make up for the size.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 7, 2009)

Boy can those 70mm fans suck. Sounds like a server.


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 7, 2009)

wow nice airflow there


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 7, 2009)

Here's where it's at right now (first pic). I won't get the SPI300 supply until next week but in the mean time I can use this one for testing. It's close to the same size and efficiency rating. The supply is only warm with the 60mm low rpm fan laying on it. The second pic is the 2 70mm fans shown in the case. I'm going to place them on the right side blowing out. The cpu makes the most heat and that location, blowing out, they bring air into the rear slot for the cpu then evacuate it right away and also brings air in the videocard side. The motherboard was moved over 1/8" to make room for them. The last pic is the airflow. I guess I can get started on the fan controller. It will be a thermal controlled PWM using a dual comparator to create the PWM, mosfet low-side switch, and user adjustable.

From the pics it doesn't look like anything new but to semi-quote Edison, I now know 10 ways not to make a case.  Once all the parts are here and the paint is on we'll all see how all this time pays off.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 7, 2009)

More testing. The 4870 is alot quieter. I made a 6-pin to dual 6-pin because I was to lazy to pull the psu and solder in another one. That's hdmi to my 56" tv.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 7, 2009)

I think your ITX build is more powerful than my desktop!


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## wolf (Nov 7, 2009)

wow dude, post #260 things are starting to shape up pretty epically, I think there is a lot of potential in custom mini ITX builds, the pci-e riser card is a must for something quite flat like yours, where can you buy them from anyway?


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## xBruce88x (Nov 7, 2009)

you could try Logic Supply

Riser Card


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 8, 2009)

Nothing much to update. Just trying different fan sizes, speeds, locations, and then testing. So far the cpu load heat doesn't effect the gpu idle temp and the gpu load heat doesn't effect the cpu idle temp. With the psu installed in the case I'm seeing about 10c higher on the cpu, no effect on the gpu. I'll have to reconsider the fan duct. A plastic duct using double-sided tape, to hold it to the case cover, will probably be the route I'll take. Cheap and easy and I already know it's effective.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 9, 2009)

Yup I'm going to go with the duct. The heat from the psu and the cpu recycling it's air  is getting it too hot. 49c idle with fans on low. With the duct in place and fans on low it's 37c idle. I'm sure the issue gets progressively worse as things heat up under load. With the duct it's all good.

I ordered this tonight.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811996004


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 9, 2009)

Here's the acoustic measurments on the SPI300 psu. It's going to be noisy.  As far as I can tell this is the closest model for the fan (highlighted). Where does the CPU get it's power from these days? 3.3v, 5v, or 12v?


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## Geofrancis (Nov 9, 2009)

i think cpu's these days take all there power from the 12v line. 

that power supply doesn't look like it has enough power on the 12v rail only 7a on each rail.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 9, 2009)

hmm.. the only thing i can think of for that as far as noise would be to have a short flexible 40mm tube in place of the 40mm fan, at the other end have a 40mm to 60mm/50mm adapter with a 60mm/50mm fan attached. i know it sounds crazy and might take up more room, but i looked for quieter 40mm fans and just couldn't find any with the same airflow rating.

or you can make your own 40mm to 50/60mm adaptor. the reason i suggested the tube is b/c i couldn't find any adaptors that are flat on one side allowing it to be flush with the bottom of the case or w/e. you would have to custom make an adapter for that. seeing what you did with the radeon card, i guess you should be able to figure that one out 

but as for fans with the same/slightly better airflow with lower noise...

50mm fan

60mm fan

they actually move a little more air but they're still quiter


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 9, 2009)

Geofrancis said:


> that power supply doesn't look like it has enough power on the 12v rail only 7a on each rail.



I ran it off a 300w before without a problem. A 65w cpu would draw 5.41a off a 12v rail, 13a off a 5v rail, or 19.69a off a 3.3v rail. I'm going to guess it runs off the 12v to keep the current down. The motherboard then provides 1.27v to the cpu. At 1.27v it's 51.81a.  Crazy. When I tested the 4750, I only saw it spike 7a once. I'd have to look back but I think the average was 3-4a off the 6-pin plus w/e it pulled off the mobo. PSU calculator said 256w with an o/c. Parts should be here Tues. or Wed. then I'll know.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 12, 2009)

That little guy fits right in there. I haven't heard the fan spin up yet but I haven't load tested it. The air from the fan isn't very warm at all. That's the LCD off to the lower left. I'm tinkering with it now.

EDIT - Totally unacceptable noise level under load.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm about ready to can the project. No one makes the hardware with the configuration I need. I can't produce a cost-effective system when I have to manufacture/modify so many parts. I could make it larger but then it'll have a bunch of wasted space inside and defeats the purpose. On the bright side this lcd is kinda cool.


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## Polaris573 (Nov 12, 2009)

May I move this thread to the project logs sub-forum please?  It should have been done earlier but it flew under the radar I guess.  Since it's been here so long I'll give you the option to leave it here.  It's up to you.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 12, 2009)

Polaris573 said:


> May I move this thread to the project logs sub-forum please?  It should have been done earlier but it flew under the radar I guess.  Since it's been here so long I'll give you the option to leave it here.  It's up to you.



Sure thats no problem.


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## Cuzza (Nov 12, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I'm about ready to can the project. No one makes the hardware with the configuration I need. I can't produce a cost-effective system when I have to manufacture/modify so many parts. I could make it larger but then it'll have a bunch of wasted space inside and defeats the purpose. On the bright side this lcd is kinda cool.



That's a pity my friend. You've put so much work into this! If you're not going to make several more of them, you'll at least finish one as a one-off special?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 12, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> That's a pity my friend. You've put so much work into this! If you're not going to make several more of them, you'll at least finish one as a one-off special?



Unfortunatly society limits humanities productivity. Example. One hole is going to cost me $100. 100 holes would cost me $110. Go figure. Keeps the rich man rich and the poor man poor. What does the poor man get? A Dremel and crappy holes not worthy of a retail shelf. Did I mention I'm a perfectionist? Cuzza, I bet I spent 3 hours clicking pixles photoshopping your heatsink. lol

On another note.

For the PSU's power cord, I was going to use a 90-deg pc power connector and route the cable inside to the back of the chassis where it would be soldered to the 3-pin jack I posted a few pics back. This gave the ability for an off-the-shelf psu to be used without the user having to wire anything. Unfortunatly, any off-the-shelf supply that'll fit in this thing is going to have a loud ass fan.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 12, 2009)

PSU mounted. I need to order the C6 chassis connector for the rear and move the motherboard over a nudge to make room for it.


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 12, 2009)

nice seems to be a decent fit... just please don't can this project i want to see it play out


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## Polaris573 (Nov 12, 2009)

Yeah don't give up yet.  I want to see how it turns out as well.  I've been thinking about doing something like this in the next year or two and I'm interested to see how yours turns out.


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## erocker (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm a bit late to this thread, but wow! Very impressive. Mad engineering skills Lazzer.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 12, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> nice seems to be a decent fit... just please don't can this project i want to see it play out



I'll finish the one for sure. Once completed I can better judge mass production costs. The frustration comes from attempting to get the most from the least. Whether that's wattage from a tiny psu or getting heat out of a tiny case. The 'correct' design is the one that works the best with ALL things considered. Solve one problem, create 2 more. It's crazy how something as simple as a pc chassis can get so complicated.



Polaris573 said:


> Yeah don't give up yet.  I want to see how it turns out as well.  I've been thinking about doing something like this in the next year or two and I'm interested to see how yours turns out.



If it turns out well maybe I can sell you one. 



erocker said:


> I'm a bit late to this thread, but wow! Very impressive. Mad engineering skills Lazzer.



Thanks. I have the machines to thank too. They do all the work. I just measure and line up the parts. lol


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## Geofrancis (Nov 13, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> I'll finish the one for sure. Once completed I can better judge mass production costs. The frustration comes from attempting to get the most from the least. Whether that's wattage from a tiny psu or getting heat out of a tiny case. The 'correct' design is the one that works the best with ALL things considered. Solve one problem, create 2 more. It's crazy how something as simple as a pc chassis can get so complicated.



its a pain in the arse tryin to get decent power into a small case but thats the challenge! now you know that no one else in the world has the same computer as you.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm changing the harddrive mounting to allow a 2 drive RAID if laptop drives are used.


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## Polaris573 (Nov 13, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> If it turns out well maybe I can sell you one.
> l



Nah, sorry but I'm pretty big into the whole do it yourself thing whether it be cars, computers, repairs, etc.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 13, 2009)

Polaris573 said:


> Nah, sorry but I'm pretty big into the whole do it yourself thing whether it be cars, computers, repairs, etc.



No problem. Just offering. Maybe you can grab some ideas off the build. That's why it's public. For those that don't have the ability or equipment to make something like this can still get one if I can price it competitively.


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## Cuzza (Nov 13, 2009)

I love your paint skills man. What are you gonna do about that noisy PSU fan?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 13, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> I love your paint skills man. What are you gonna do about that noisy PSU fan?



There's nothing I can do for this supply. At first I was impressed how quiet it was and then the fan came on.  It had no problems powering a fully loaded gpu and cpu but damn, it's a like a cordless vacuum with a full load. It's fan is also out of balance which vibrates the whole chassis. If I make the case just a little bit longer (1/2"~1") I can fit a micro-atx supply in it but by then I might as well just buy a retail case. It's still a consideration. The two matx supplies I messed with were nice and quiet even under heavy load. It sucks that the power supply of all things is the limiting factor but It had been from the start. Once the case is complete some of the noise will be burried but I'm sure I'll hear it gaming.

As far as harddrive mounting. With the motherboard moved over I can't mount the drive(s) like I wanted but it left plenty of room for the rear power connector and opened up airflow to the side case fans. I can actually feel them moving more air.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 13, 2009)

Hmm... I'm laying this out in CAD to scale. If I make the chassis 12x12x3" I can fit a micro-ATX in the same location if I relocate the optical drive to the other side towards the bottom of the chassis. This wouldn't look all that bad because the LCD would be centered directly above it. I'll put up a pic in a few minutes and get your opinions.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 13, 2009)

I don't know about that power button but w/e. That's the least of my worries. The supply could pull it's air from the bottom if it has a fan there. There's just enough room for cramming wires too. What do you guys think?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 14, 2009)

This is the PSU I picked up tonight. It's single 80mm fan is quiet and runs at a fixed RPM.
380w Output:
+3.3V@15A
+5V@15A
+12V@22A
-12V@0.6A
+5VSB@2.0A






Here is a somewhat updated drawing to show how the PSU vents into a chamber which prevents it's exhaust from entering the rest of the chassis.


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 14, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> There's nothing I can do for this supply. At first I was impressed how quiet it was and then the fan came on.  It had no problems powering a fully loaded gpu and cpu but damn, it's a like a cordless vacuum with a full load. It's fan is also out of balance which vibrates the whole chassis. If I make the case just a little bit longer (1/2"~1") I can fit a micro-atx supply in it but by then I might as well just buy a retail case. It's still a consideration. The two matx supplies I messed with were nice and quiet even under heavy load. It sucks that the power supply of all things is the limiting factor but It had been from the start. Once the case is complete some of the noise will be burried but I'm sure I'll hear it gaming.
> 
> As far as harddrive mounting. With the motherboard moved over I can't mount the drive(s) like I wanted but it left plenty of room for the rear power connector and opened up airflow to the side case fans. I can actually feel them moving more air.



why not replace the fan with one that doesn't sound like a vacuum?


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 14, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> why not replace the fan with one that doesn't sound like a vacuum?



It's spinning that fast because of how little air it can move through such a cramped space. It gets pretty toasty with just the fan it has. To use a slower fan would risk overheating.


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 14, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> It's spinning that fast because of how little air it can move through such a cramped space. It gets pretty toasty with just the fan it has. To use a slower fan would risk overheating.



consider modding the PSU case to allow better airflow possibly cut out a place for another small fan and run them both on 7v

can i get a link or pics to the PSU so i can see what you are working with


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 14, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> consider modding the PSU case to allow better airflow possibly cut out a place for another small fan and run them both on 7v
> 
> can i get a link or pics to the PSU so i can see what you are working with



http://athenapower.us/prohtml/ap-mfatx30.html#productoverview

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...Product&guid=d3535142f4274814b9b0d0cc82cb6a8e

Funny that Newegg drops the price $10 the day my review went up. I paid $63.99 on 11/08. 

I mentioned briefly that I was trying to stick with off-the-shelf components as best I could. If a modification was simple enough to do 100 times I'd consider it. I may manufacture a few of these so it's important that I choose common components for the sake of the end user. I can't expect them to buy modified proprietary parts from me, incase of failure, or to use any non-standard components. I started this off making MAJOR modifications to power supplies in attempts to cram one in that G-Atlantic chassis. After all that trial and error I was better off designing my own chassis. I'm trying to keep it as small as I can without compromising thermal management and reliability, or adding complexity and expense.

I most definitely appreciate any and all input and advice I can get.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 14, 2009)

A couple layout pics. Optical drive moved to left side. PSU intake through bottom, outlet through right side vents and isolated from the rest of the system by the panel with a gromet for the power cord. In the first pic you can see the area between the psu and optical drive where the cords have to be crammed. In the second picture you can see the mATX supply only hangs over the edge about 3/4". That's how much deeper the chassis will have to be. I have the room to mount the power buttons/leds on the right side of the front panel. That would balance out the front look rather then leave the one side plain.


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 14, 2009)

Awe no new comments? I think you guys are getting bored with it. lol


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## craigbru (Nov 14, 2009)

Hey, I'll comment.  I love the work you've done so far.  SFF rigs are what I live for, and I like seeing someone else's take on it.  Keep it up man!


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## MKmods (Nov 14, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> *-WARNING-* _This project involves working with LETHAL voltages! Do NOT open your power supply without proper training and knowledge._


I  when I saw this as it reminded me of when I first started modding PSs.. I was so proud of my design I sent a pict of it to PC Power & Cooling expecting them to be blown away like I was....

They replied with a very serious email "DO NOT OPEN THE PS, ITS DANGEROUS" 

(Honestly how I grew up is a shock every now and then is a good teacher for being careful)

I really enjoy watching this log, after mon I will have more time to goof off and browse more.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 14, 2009)

Pfft i've had 240 volts and 13 amps go through my tongue.

How much can the caps store up in power supplies?

Its not anything like their entire rated wattage and amperage is it?


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 14, 2009)

the only problem i could see with the cord between the panel and bottom would be if it had to be replaced for some reason...how would someone go about doing that?


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## pantherx12 (Nov 14, 2009)

Offer a free repair service for simple jobs!


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## MKmods (Nov 14, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Pfft i've had 240 volts and 13 amps go through my tongue.
> 
> How much can the caps store up in power supplies?
> 
> Its not anything like their entire rated wattage and amperage is it?



enough to kill you if ur not careful.(so be careful) 

*But if there are small kids anywhere around your house be REALLY careful, If we kill/mame our selfs its one thing but if someone else is injured that sucks and ur going to hell.*


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## pantherx12 (Nov 14, 2009)

Enough to kill me eh?

Suppose I'm pretty lucky I've had them zap my fingers pretty badly, just left burns on finger tips mind you.


True about children though, safety first TPU.


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 14, 2009)

its funny you guys talk about PSUs zapping you when i haven't had that happen yet*knock on wood*

but that could be because i leave them unplugged for a few days or weeks before i get around to doing anything with them.


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## MKmods (Nov 14, 2009)

the shock can stop ur heart (not likely just a possibility) It can cause you to jerk back and cut urself, fall over , hit ur head etc...
For me every shock makes me a bit more careful the next time.

I have yet to be shocked by a computer part (mostly home/industrial wiring shocks for me)


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## p_o_s_pc (Nov 14, 2009)

MKmods said:


> the shock can stop ur heart (not likely just a possibility) It can cause you to jerk back and cut urself, fall over , hit ur head etc...
> For me every shock makes me a bit more careful the next time.



i almost make myself freakout when i'm messing with a PSU so i am extra careful and so far its paid off. The reason for me trying to be so careful is for the reasons you just posted


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## Lazzer408 (Nov 14, 2009)

p_o_s_pc said:


> the only problem i could see with the cord between the panel and bottom would be if it had to be replaced for some reason...how would someone go about doing that?



The bracket that holds the psu to the chassis will be notched so that the cord just slides out of the notch once the top cover is removed. The wire all the way to the PSU doesn't have to be 6 feet long with an AC plug on the end. It could run from the psu to a jack on the back of the chassis where an AC cord could then be externally connected.

EDIT - Something like this. I ran out of gromets so I just cut a slit at the bottom for now. The bottom of the chassis was extended by welding on 1" pieces. Tacky but this is just a mock-up.


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## Geofrancis (Dec 1, 2009)

how the project going ive not seen any updates in a while.


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## Lazzer408 (Dec 1, 2009)

Not much going on with it. The m-atx supply runs it just fine. It's quiet.

What started off as a rocket fast little gaming itx build only wound up obnoxiously noisy because manufactures can't correctly state specifications like the output to noise curve on a power supply. Due to the lack of any quality components it'll never be anything special. It's not worth it to me to have to make things like a low profile heatsink. I can't imagine I'm the only one who wants a small computer but when I start looking up specs on existing products I find nothing I can use. It keeps getting bigger, defeting the purpose. 12x12x3" is what it wound up at. It'll be a one-off project sitting on the shelf like so many others. I don't really have a use for it. I'm pretty self-defeting when it comes to building things because I keep comparing my work to retail products. This will never "look cool" or wind up on a retail shelf. I just don't have the machinery required. If I had the tools I'd blow your mind with what can be done. Unfortunatly we're all eating from corporate hands with only financial agendas.


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## Geofrancis (Dec 1, 2009)

thats a bummer i thought we were going to see a finished custom pc that goes like stink. ah well im still waiting for a bit of plastic for my build before i can get anything else done to it. got my 4850 working again tho so im just testing it out with some cod4.


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## roast (Dec 7, 2009)

Lazzer408 said:


> Not much going on with it. The m-atx supply runs it just fine. It's quiet.
> 
> What started off as a rocket fast little gaming itx build only wound up obnoxiously noisy because manufactures can't correctly state specifications like the output to noise curve on a power supply. Due to the lack of any quality components it'll never be anything special. It's not worth it to me to have to make things like a low profile heatsink. I can't imagine I'm the only one who wants a small computer but when I start looking up specs on existing products I find nothing I can use. It keeps getting bigger, defeting the purpose. 12x12x3" is what it wound up at. It'll be a one-off project sitting on the shelf like so many others. I don't really have a use for it. I'm pretty self-defeting when it comes to building things because I keep comparing my work to retail products. This will never "look cool" or wind up on a retail shelf. I just don't have the machinery required. If I had the tools I'd blow your mind with what can be done. Unfortunatly we're all eating from corporate hands with only financial agendas.




I totally understand.

I like how this build is going though, dont give up! I've been following it for quite a while, I'm interested in doing a mini-itx build myself, so I have learned a bit here.

Redesign the whole thing if you have to. If noise is a concern, why not get triangular foam padding to insulate the noise?
On an old build of mine, the chipset fan was ridiculously loud - I insulated the whole case with bubble wrap and it worked a treat. Only increased temps by 1-2C.

Even with the size, redesign and start from the ground up, again. It would be a shame to see this build die, even if you have to resort to a hammer and chisel to get it done!


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## envador (Jan 6, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> Not much going on with it. The m-atx supply runs it just fine. It's quiet.
> 
> What started off as a rocket fast little gaming itx build only wound up obnoxiously noisy because manufactures can't correctly state specifications like the output to noise curve on a power supply. Due to the lack of any quality components it'll never be anything special. It's not worth it to me to have to make things like a low profile heatsink. I can't imagine I'm the only one who wants a small computer but when I start looking up specs on existing products I find nothing I can use. It keeps getting bigger, defeting the purpose. 12x12x3" is what it wound up at. It'll be a one-off project sitting on the shelf like so many others. I don't really have a use for it. I'm pretty self-defeting when it comes to building things because I keep comparing my work to retail products. This will never "look cool" or wind up on a retail shelf. I just don't have the machinery required. If I had the tools I'd blow your mind with what can be done. Unfortunatly we're all eating from corporate hands with only financial agendas.



Lazzer, DO NOT GIVE UP! You have all the tools and skills required... more than what I had back when I was still modding. Most of my projects were done with a dremel, tin snips, a file and pliers. You've got some great ideas and can really execute. The duct for the CPU fan is really innovative.

I actually stumbled upon TPU and your posting when trying to find fan noise information about the SPI300F4BB ... also, thanks for the posting the review of that Athena AP-MFATX30 PSU. I'll steer clear. I guess I can only assume the SPI300F4BB is going to be just as noisy... both are 80PLUS certified which is what I want since the PSU is going to be put into an always-on HTPC.

So anyway, my HTPC is my DialupPC (http://www.envador.com/cases/Dialup/) that I made a while back. I needed a new PSU for my DialupPC . I upgraded the guts a few months ago to a core 2 duo E8400 and an itx board.  You see the PSU in my pics? That's the power supply I ripped out of an old Shuttle XPC box. It's strikingly similar to the SPI300F4BB and AP-MFATX30. And yes, it got NOISY when under load. Why is nothing ever perfect?

Well, back in 2006/2007 (i think) I got this external power brick PSU: http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-150-XT ... It was enough to power the P4 2.0Ghz that was in DialupPC at the time. Totally silenced my HTPC. Sometimes the little fan in the external brick kicked in, but it was pretty quiet.

I figure it's been a good 3 years and since DialupPC's board is out for RMA, I might as well replace the PSU (since I'm not sure whether my picoPSU is dying and if that caused the my motherboard to die).

My choice is either to get another picoPSU combo or maaaaybe THIS! --> http://www.idotpc.com/thestore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=67&idproduct=831  ... It's the SPI 120GNF and it's fanless.  120Watts though, so maybe if you're driving a gaming card it won't work out.

For comparison, it looks like the picoPSUs are available in up to 150watts.

Anyway, I'm going to keep watching this thread for sure! Rooting for ya.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 16, 2010)

~Still tinkering~

I spent the last couple months in Michigan and didn't get much done on the mini but I did find a couple of fans I'm testing. This blower-style fan also serves as my duct, blowing the hot air out the back of the case. At least this way there's no CPU heat being blown into the chassis.

Idle - 37c
Load - 69c

That is acceptable in my book for an E6750@3ghz.

The Intel heatsink has a big copper slug in the center that's ~1.5" in diameter. The opening in this blower is only ~2.16" so there's only about 3/8" gap left for airflow. I'm ordering a 1U copper heatsink tonight that would allow the entire opening of the fan to be exposed to fin. That should help alot plus the fact it's copper. We shall see.


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 16, 2010)

good stuff lazzer, really like that blower style fan.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 16, 2010)

Chicken Patty said:


> good stuff lazzer, really like that blower style fan.



Thanks CP. I have another blower that's a bit thicker. The one shown is ~.85" and the other one I have is ~1.5". The top of the CPU to the top of the chassis is only ~2" so that leaves me ~.5" for base/fin of a heatsink if I use the big blower. Too bad too. It's alot quieter with more flow then the skinny one.

Does anyone have a ref. HD4870 fan cheap?


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 16, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> Thanks CP. I have another blower that's a bit thicker. The one shown is ~.85" and the other one I have is ~1.5". The top of the CPU to the top of the chassis is only ~2" so that leaves me ~.5" for base/fin of a heatsink if I use the big blower. Too bad too. It's alot quieter with more flow then the skinny one.
> 
> Does anyone have a ref. HD4870 fan cheap?



Not me, no fan here.

BTW, you have any ideas to use the thicker blower, or it just won't work period?


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 16, 2010)

Chicken Patty said:


> Not me, no fan here.
> 
> BTW, you have any ideas to use the thicker blower, or it just won't work period?



If I use the thicker one I'll only have .5" between it and the cpu. I can't fit much of a heatsink in .5". It'll take 6000rpm to keep that cool. I think the skinny one will work much better with the copper heatsink. The copper heatsink is 1", plus .85" for the blower, and I have .15" left out of 2" total height to fit it. Remember I'm craming HD5870/Q9550 overclocked gaming rig into a 12x12x2.5" chassis with a 450w PSU. lol This isn't easy. 

EDIT - copper heatsink ordered. 92x90mm 20mm fins. 25mm total height. Hope it works well with the blower.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

Not the heatsink I'm waiting for from ebay but I found this one locally. About 30+ minutes on the belt sander to take the folds off and expose the fin. Works the same as the large stock Intel, both using the small blower, but this heatsink will fit a chassis height of 2.5".  I have more options to test so keep watching.

Idle - 37c
Load - 69c

Before:





After:


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 18, 2010)

that's not bad at all for temps.  Like the new sink.  Looking forward to seeing the ebay one in work


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 18, 2010)

Hmmm that is a good idea with the blower! does that board take the high quad 775s?


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

Same heatsink using a 80x15mm thin fan. Works great as long as the top of the chassis is off. I could even fit a 92x15mm fan in there but once the cover is on I run into the same problem with the fan being choked and load temp climbs to >70c.  The blower is probably going to be my best bet. I need to get a proper blower though. The one I'm using is just a cheap pci slot blower.

The LAST option to try is a 1.5U or 2U passive heatsink with the chassis fans reversed to blow inward directly through the heatsink.

Idle - 34c
Load - 59c (10c less)


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

brandonwh64 said:


> Hmmm that is a good idea with the blower! does that board take the high quad 775s?



Yes it'll support the Quads.


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## [Ion] (Feb 18, 2010)

If you can find one of the SFF LGA755 Dells, I pulled a blower out of one of those.  It may be too big for this application, but I used mine in my SFF rig (substantially taller, but with the same mobo and a copper-core C2Q HSF) on my Q9400 and it kept temps reasonable...not sure exactly but it was under 60c


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

[Ion] said:


> If you can find one of the SFF LGA755 Dells, I pulled a blower out of one of those.  It may be too big for this application, but I used mine in my SFF rig (substantially taller, but with the same mobo and a copper-core C2Q HSF) on my Q9400 and it kept temps reasonable...not sure exactly but it was under 60c



http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=dell+blower&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Which one?


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## [Ion] (Feb 18, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=dell+blower&_sacat=See-All-Categories
> 
> Which one?



I used this one and this one, the second kept it a couple degrees cooler, and was also marginally quieter.  Either worked though


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

[Ion] said:


> I used this one and this one, the second kept it a couple degrees cooler, and was also marginally quieter.  Either worked though



Either have PWM? Looks like the second one did. How thick is it and how large is the opening?


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## [Ion] (Feb 18, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> Either have PWM? Looks like the second one did. How thick is it and how large is the opening?



The second one has PWM, the first one doesn't.  I'm not sure if I even have either of them, I'll dig around tomorrow and if I can find one of them to get a measurement for you


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

[Ion] said:


> The second one has PWM, the first one doesn't.  I'm not sure if I even have either of them, I'll dig around tomorrow and if I can find one of them to get a measurement for you



Found it...

* Application: Server & Storage Equipment 
* PWM Fuction: 2.05A avg, 3.2A peak, 
* Fan Dimension: 137 (L) x 94(W) x 33(H)mm 
* PWM Signal duty cycle Speed: 0-20% 1000RPM, 100% 5750RPM 
* Rated Voltage: DC 12V 
* Max. Air Flower:48 CFM


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 18, 2010)

I bought one for $10. I'll let you know how it works out.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 19, 2010)

The solid copper skived-fin heatsink from ebay arived today. Dynatron P12G. $29 shipped. 

Dimension: 90 x 92 x 26.5 mm.
Pitch: 1.5 mm.
Thickness of fin: 0.5 mm.
Number of fins: 46.
Height of fin: 20 mm.
Height of base: 2.3 mm.
Length of base: 92 mm.

Here's the results again using the small blower.

Idle - 35c (was 37c)
Load - 64c (was 69c)

That's looking a bit better. Can't beat solid copper. The fin density is lower and the physical size is a little bit smaller but it's performing better. The first one was bumping the chipset heatsink but that isn't a problem with this one.

Here's a shot of the two side by side and a shot of the bottom of the first heatsink. You can see the fins on the new heatsink are fewer but thicker. I'm sure the thicker fin helps pull the heat from the base more quickly.


----------



## Chicken Patty (Feb 19, 2010)

So looks like this one is a winner


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 19, 2010)

This may be helpfull for others looking for a good SFF Socket 775 solution. The Dynatron P12G, with an 80x15mm thin fan, managed these impressive numbers.

Idle - 28c
Load - 52c

Remember this is with an E6750 2.66@3.0

The fan is a Best Cooler sb8015m12s-n. I can't find any information on this fan. It's just a 2-wire generic China fan and always runs full speed. It is quieter then the Stock Intel cooler but could be heard across a quiet room. If the CPU is ever at full load I doubt your in a quiet room.


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 19, 2010)

Awesome stuff lazed, thanks for all the info


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 19, 2010)

For shits and giggles I'm going to make a duct out of a cereal box just to see if the two case fans can keep it cool. Combined they move more CFM then a single 80x15mm and it would eliminate one fan in the system.



Chicken Patty said:


> Awesome stuff lazed, thanks for all the info



Not a problem CP. I'm glad someone comments now and then.


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## xrealm20 (Feb 19, 2010)

awesome work Laz, I hope to see your itx all finished up --

/sub'd


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 19, 2010)

One solution found.  Twin 60mm and a duct work great. I have some plastic somewhere to do it right. The cardboard is a bit leaky.  I can probably expect a degree or two less once everything is notched out to fit. It's hotter blowing out because it's sucking some heat off the toasty northbridge but it will work that way and stay below 70c.

The only thing left to try is the Dell blower but I think the housing is too wide.

EDIT - I'll probably pick up a set of these PWM fans. 2 will get me >50cfm with PWM on high. I'll also find out how well the mobo's 4-pin can drive parallel PWM fans. One will need the tach lead removed ofcorse.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6..._Fan_126015BU.html?tl=g36c365s947&id=MGu7vrr6

Blowing in:
Idle - 29
Load - 55

Blowing out:
Idle - 38
Load - 66

EDIT - adjusted the angle on the duct to move it away from the fans. (blowing out)
Idle - 33c
Load - 60c


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 20, 2010)

Things like this really bother me. Here's a nice 400w 'claimed silent' supply that would be prefect but someone dropped the ball with the breakout. Does a m-atx really have the room to stuff a breakout like that? Nope. Could have been a good choice but...


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 20, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> For shits and giggles I'm going to make a duct out of a cereal box just to see if the two case fans can keep it cool. Combined they move more CFM then a single 80x15mm and it would eliminate one fan in the system.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a problem CP. I'm glad someone comments now and then.





Lazzer408 said:


> Things like this really bother me. Here's a nice 400w 'claimed silent' supply that would be prefect but someone dropped the ball with the breakout. Does a m-atx really have the room to stuff a breakout like that? Nope. Could have been a good choice but...
> 
> http://www.acousticpc.com/images/a_silenx_micro_atx_psu_lg_lite_pic.jpg




Looks like blowing in is a winner, those are mighty fine temps for been such a small case.  Your persitance has paid off bro 

That PSU looks like it has too much cabling, is there a PSU made for ITX builds?  Like hardly any length in the wires?


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 20, 2010)

Chicken Patty said:


> Looks like blowing in is a winner, those are mighty fine temps for been such a small case.  Your persitance has paid off bro
> 
> That PSU looks like it has too much cabling, is there a PSU made for ITX builds?  Like hardly any length in the wires?



You would think.  It's almost as if there's a higher power at work blocking my progress. Corporate I'm sure. I think -someone- just doesn't want high power SFF computers. As if -someone- is pulling strings to keep PC gaming in the tower and console gaming where it is. The same reason the Xbox's don't run Windows software. The hardware can do it but their software limits it.

Thermaltake, Coolermaster, whoever, could easily do what I'm doing and there's a market for it. They just don't/won't/can't do it. The TT Mozart Sx was the closest thing but it's 18.5 x 17.3 x 3.5" 1120cu-in.  I'm sitting at 12 x 12 x 2.5" 360cu-in. 

The downside to blowing in is the heat gets trapped in the case and winds up getting sucked into the videocard. Whatever solution I use must blow outward. Blowing out on the CPU right side causes cool air to be brought in on the left side. The GPU will recieve that cool air first.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 20, 2010)

I wanted to see how well that little 80x15mm fan worked on the new heatsink (post 332) but with the top of the fan close to the "cover".

Idle - 32
Load - 64c

Without the blockage it was 28c/52c

I might just stick with that for simplicity sake. I can even fit a 92x15mm fan on it and the screw holes would land on an area of the heatsink that I can drill and tap. 92x15mm PWM fans are hard to find though. I know one of the Shuttle cases use it. The 92mm fan should take the temp down a nudge.

To solve the PWM problem... The second pic is a schematic that -should- allow many fans to run in parallel, including my case fans. The key to using a mosfet is to use a logic-level device. Intel specifications call for 5v max on the PWM pin. A logic-level mosfet, pull-up resistor, and 5v zener solve that problem. I have to update the 4-pin to 3-pin thread with the new mosfet-based schematic.


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## xBruce88x (Feb 20, 2010)

lookin good, nice to see some updates on this build!

that will make a great lan party rig lol (very portable)


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 20, 2010)

The PWM circuit works great BUT it squeels like a pig. The switching frequency off the motherboard's PWM is too low. Intel specs require 21khz-25khz (inaudible). My board is around 15khz (audible). Should I call Zotec and bitch at someone? Maybe they can fix it in a BIOS update. Other then that the fan control works great.

I sent them an email. I'll call them Monday and ream them out.


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## mmm995 (Feb 21, 2010)

awesome project 

I dont know if your case fit but i can recomend a nice psu
X-SPICE KIRA 530W its normal ATX.... , BUT its very short psu with 120mm fan and runs very warm and silent
also you can replace fan for slim 12mm scythe + throw case and  you will save abotu 20mm about

or maybe use 60mm fans on sides


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 21, 2010)

mmm995 said:


> awesome project
> 
> I dont know if your case fit but i can recomend a nice psu
> X-SPICE KIRA 530W its normal ATX.... , BUT its very short psu with 120mm fan and runs very warm and silent
> ...



I can't fix an ATX supply in 2-1/2"


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## mmm995 (Feb 21, 2010)

atx psu is 85mm tall 
2-1/2" = 63mm

kira has 120x25mm fan so without fan will be 60mm so wihtout case and fans on side will fit 
I guess


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 21, 2010)

mmm995 said:


> atx psu is 85mm tall
> 2-1/2" = 63mm
> 
> kira has 120x25mm fan so without fan will be 60mm so wihtout case and fans on side will fit
> I guess



The width will increase the depth of my chassis as well. I'm trying to avoid as much custom modding as I can. I think I found a PSU (380w) that seems to be holding up well under full load and not very hot either. "Safely warm" suits it well. This supply does take it's air in from the bottom which I'm not too thrilled about. If I can I'd like to find a nice quiet mATX PSU with single or dual dual 60mm fans to avoid the hole in the bottom of the chassis.

Something like this.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338038


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## xBruce88x (Feb 21, 2010)

what about this one... 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338009


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 21, 2010)

xBruce88x said:


> what about this one...
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338009



Dimensions 5.75”(W) x 3.25”(H) x 4”(D) It's an ATX rear footprint but shorter. No-go.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 21, 2010)

Bruce you may like this as it's testing your suggestion of this fan.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835119067

How many ways can I skin a cat? I'm sort of bent on a 'suck through' blower-style CPU cooler. The reason being is that ALL of the CPU's heat gets blown out of the chassis. I have one Dell blower on the way but in the mean time... Here is yet another cpu cooler design using a standard 90mm fan with 1/2 the outer frame cut out. A cardboard shroud is glued on to make it function like a blower-style fan. It's not an ideal centrifugal fan but it does work. I should mention this isn't a very fast fan either. Not too bad really. 

Idle - 39
Load - 65


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## Solaris17 (Feb 21, 2010)

This is awesome.


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 21, 2010)

I love how he uses cardboard to his advantage   Great job Lazzer!


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 22, 2010)

Chicken Patty said:


> I love how he uses cardboard to his advantage   Great job Lazzer!



It's fast and easy to make a simple ducts for "testing purposes".


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 22, 2010)

Something dawned on me about this. I bet switching the low side like this is going to screw up the tach.


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## Chicken Patty (Feb 22, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> It's fast and easy to make a simple ducts for "testing purposes".



As long as it works


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 22, 2010)

My little 60mm buddies showed up today. 

These 60mm fans are my new case fans. They have PWM control. 

I ordered some 4-pin Y cables from Newegg so the CPU fan header can control these case fans as well. Since the PSU and GPU both vent externally, the only thing in the case making any significant heat is the NB and the CPU. If the CPU is hot the cpu fan and case fans will both throttle up.

A few posts back I made a duct that uses the case fans blowing in to cool the CPU. I still want to try that again using these fans and DAMN can they move some air at full speed but might be a little too noisy to be the only CPU fans.

Rated Speed:  5400 RPM (max) 
Max Air Flow:  26.83 CFM

Combined 53.66 cfm but LOUD.

EDIT - One of these sitting on the CPU heatsink can maintain 56-57c PWM cycling between 50 and 75% so maybe they will work as the only CPU fans. I'll find out soon enough.


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## xrealm20 (Feb 22, 2010)

How loud are those 60mm fans at 50% load? 

I remember having some 60mm delta fans that ran at like 9k rpm.  Moved an insane amout of air, but damn they were very loud...


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 22, 2010)

xrealm20 said:


> How loud are those 60mm fans at 50% load?
> 
> I remember having some 60mm delta fans that ran at like 9k rpm.  Moved an insane amout of air, but damn they were very loud...



Good question. I really have no way to measure it here but here's my opinions.
25% it's silent. Can't hear it across the room.
50% it's still very quiet. You wouldn't hear it over the TV at a low volume.
75% you would just hear it across the room but not with TV on low volume.
100% you will definitly hear it across the room with the TV on, unless your cranking a movie or some music. The 4850 at 100% is louder.

I have a ton of options I'm throwing at cooling. I'm sure your all saying "Pick one and finish it already!"  I'm trying to balance cost, cooling performance, and noise level. I'd rather have a max of 65c that I can't hear then a 55c I can. I also want PWM control so it's up to the end user to configure the BIOS settings for PWM. So far the 'suck through blower' with PWM control is the best at everything. I have 2 blowers coming this week to try. In the mean time I'm trying a blower off an bricked EVGA 8800 to see how the PWM works with a blower.

EVGA blower BIOS PWM control set to 55c. Won't hit 100% until >65c
Idle - 55 (silent)
Load - 62-65 PWM cycling between 25 and 50% (wouldn't hear it over the 4850)

EVGA blower BIOS forced to 100%
Idle - 36
Load - 58

Lots of overhead for (more) overclocking. I need to get the E6750 out and stick a Q9550 in there.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 22, 2010)

xrealm20 said:


> How loud are those 60mm fans at 50% load?
> 
> I remember having some 60mm delta fans that ran at like 9k rpm.  Moved an insane amout of air, but damn they were very loud...



Here's the fan specs for the PWM 60s
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6...m_x_15mm_PWM_Fan_126015BU.html?tl=g36c365s947

Cooljag Everflow 60mm x 15mm PWM Fan (126015BU) $9.99

Weight:  40g  
Housing Material:  UL 94V-O Plastic  
Impeller Material:  UL 94V-O Plastic  
Protection:  Current Limit / Impedance  
Operating Temp:  -10 - 70°C  
Model:  R126015BU  
Rated Voltage:  12V  
Operating Voltage Range:  7 ~ 13.2V  
Rated Current:  0.40A  
Rated Input Power:  4.80W  
*Rated Speed:  5400 RPM  
Max Air Flow:  26.83 CFM*
0.76 m^3/min  
Max Static Pressure:  5.20 mmH2O  
*Sound Level:  37.0 dBA *


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 24, 2010)

Tomorrow (or later today since it's 2am already) I'm going to grab a Q9550 and see what I can get out of it. One of the two PWM blowers I ordered should be here as well as my 4pin Y cables.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 24, 2010)

One blower came. This is a 25mm thick blower that is standard production from NMB. It will fit the chassis and I like the performance. It's loud when it's 100% but it won't need to run that fast to keep the CPU cool. It's just nice to have the overhead for things like dust in the heatsink or a customer installs the system where's there's poor ventilation or in a warmer climate.

Idle - 34c
Load - 52c

Definitely a win here. Great fit to.

EDIT - I put a manual controller on this fan just to make it *silent *and tested again. Load = 64c


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 25, 2010)

Got the Q9550.  Testing now @ 3ghz

At the moment the new blower at 100% gets me...

Idle - 41, 39, 39, 36c
Load - 64, 59c, 58, 59c

The E6600 cores had only 1-2c difference between cores but this one varies alot more so I posted them all.

*EDIT *- Upgraded the hdd to a WD 750gb RE series.

Sequential read-112mb/s write-99.6mb/s
Random read-54.63mb/s write-81.45mb/s
Random read 4kb read-.841mb/s write-2.346

That drive along with the Q9550 and damn is this thing zippy for a SFF.

Windows 7 32bit (clean install/AVG/all updates and drivers)
Startup to desktop - 28sec
Shutdown to off - 7sec.

3dMark06/Vantage numbers coming soon.

*EDIT *- 3dMark06
Q9550@3ghz
HD4850 - 13,292
HD4870 - 14,899

Vantage
4870 - 9784
GPU - 9168
CPU - 12255


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 26, 2010)

4 to 3 adaptor works great.


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## Cuzza (Feb 26, 2010)

hey lazzer, i haven't been round here much lately but good to see you are still going with all this. blower fans are the way forward!


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 27, 2010)

Cuzza said:


> hey lazzer, i haven't been round here much lately but good to see you are still going with all this. blower fans are the way forward!



Hey cuzza how's it going?!  How's your little build doing? Did you find a working solution for your cooling issues?


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## Cuzza (Feb 27, 2010)

I think the plan I have will work, but I haven't got around to implementing it. I have recently started teacher's college which meant moving out of town, I don't have a permanent place to live here yet so most of my stuff is in storage at my dad's house where I can't work on it! That will change soon, but my workload for college is pretty big right now so we'll see what I can get done.


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 27, 2010)

Cuzza said:


> I think the plan I have will work, but I haven't got around to implementing it. I have recently started teacher's college which meant moving out of town, I don't have a permanent place to live here yet so most of my stuff is in storage at my dad's house where I can't work on it! That will change soon, but my workload for college is pretty big right now so we'll see what I can get done.



I hear ya. Good luck.


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Feb 27, 2010)

Did you make your own 4 -> 3 adapter or did you buy it?


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## Lazzer408 (Feb 27, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> Did you make your own 4 -> 3 adapter or did you buy it?



Made it.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 8, 2010)

Nothing to update. I just picked up a '04 WRX so I'm a bit distracted.


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## Chicken Patty (Mar 8, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> Nothing to update. I just picked up a '04 WRX so I'm a bit distracted.



uhhh PM me some pics, love those cars 

I say PM so you keep this on topic, but I don't mind if you post them here neither


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## Thrackan (Mar 8, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> One solution found.  Twin 60mm and a duct work great. I have some plastic somewhere to do it right. The cardboard is a bit leaky.  I can probably expect a degree or two less once everything is notched out to fit. It's hotter blowing out because it's sucking some heat off the toasty northbridge but it will work that way and stay below 70c.
> 
> The only thing left to try is the Dell blower but I think the housing is too wide.
> 
> ...



That looks like the Xbox360 system with those fans, the duct and the low heatsink


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 8, 2010)

Chicken Patty said:


> uhhh PM me some pics, love those cars
> 
> I say PM so you keep this on topic, but I don't mind if you post them here neither



I hate the boxer 4 Subaru uses. They always sound like they're misfiring. That's why it's getting an H6+boost. 

CP, hit me up on yahoo messenger. Same sn.


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 15, 2010)

I havent been doing much with this project. I impulsively bought a 96" 2-seat sandrail on a Michigan trip. I've been stuffing a Mazda V6 in it. Calculates out to a 0-60mph in 3.1sec and a 10.4sec 1/4mi. Should be a riot. Plus it's street legal! \/

Build found here. http://www.miataturbo.net/subscription.php?do=viewsubscription

In the mean time the little quad build goes in this case. APEX MI-008 Black Steel Mini-ITX Tower Computer Ca...


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## Chicken Patty (Jul 15, 2010)

Lazzer408 said:


> I havent been doing much with this project. I impulsively bought a 96" 2-seat sandrail on a Michigan trip. I've been stuffing a Mazda V6 in it. Calculates out to a 0-60mph in 3.1sec and a 10.4sec 1/4mi. Should be a riot. Plus it's street legal! \/
> 
> Build found here. http://www.miataturbo.net/subscription.php?do=viewsubscription
> 
> In the mean time the little quad build goes in this case. APEX MI-008 Black Steel Mini-ITX Tower Computer Ca...


damn dude, can't view the link unless I log in, post some pics


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## Lazzer408 (Jul 16, 2010)

I yanked out the POS Ford 1.6L and transplanted a Mazda KL-DE V6 into it. I still have some odds and ends to finish up but it should be running soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sv6Xwgm9RA


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## Chicken Patty (Jul 16, 2010)

That looks hella fun!


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 5, 2011)

Well it's been months!  My sheetmetal guy sold his business so that's why this has been on the back burner for so long.  I found a new shop that's allowing me access to their scraps and equipment as long as I maintain a couple of their office computers.  I've also put some cash aside over the fall/winter so I can dive back into the project now.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 7, 2011)

How's the m-atx industry doing as far as power supplies? I found this one that seems to have some good reviews and specs.
SeaSonic SS-350SFE 350W SFX12V V3.1   80 PLUS Cert...  36a 12v

There's also KDX who makes OEM supplies.
http://www.directron.com/m7480dmmicro.html  24a 12v
http://www.directron.com/m7520dm.html  30a 12v

The 520 looks promising because of it's 8-pin EPS-12V and also 8-pin pci-e power connectors.  Must have a hella 12v rail on it. 30a from what I've been able to find.  The Seasonic claims 36a on 12v but it's less expencive.

Do you guys know of any other good m-atx supplies?

The reason I'd like to go with these supplies is because they have 60mm fans.  The m-atx psu with the 80mm fan means I have to make an opening in the bottom of the chassis to allow airflow to the psu.  That means at least .5 to .75" feet on the bottom of the case.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 9, 2011)

UPDATES:

I ordered the Zotac GF9300-G-E. The LGA-775 one with 3 SATA ports. If I had an I-series CPU handy I'd have gone with a different model. This build will still use the Q9550 I've been using in the past. I also went with the 480w KDM power supply. http://www.directron.com/m7480dmmicro.html It uses 2 thermally-controlled 60mm fans. Hopefully they are quiet. I wanted to avoid cutting a hole in the bottom of the chassis and having to use large feet to allow airflow under it.

The HDD mount is designed to hold 1x 3.5" or 2x 2.5". A small SSD for the OS and a 500gb laptop spinner would provide plenty of storage for a gaming rig. One can always add an E-SATA or USB external drive for their media library. This mount's design uses rubber gromets to keep the drive isolated from the chassis to reduce noise.

There are now NO CHASSIS FANS! Only the CPU blower, GFX card blower, and 2 60mm in the PSU. All fans are thermally controlled. Each fan vents it's own heat directly out of the chassis. The case vents will be offset from the fans to also help reduce noise.

Prototype #2's base, cover, front and back plates are cut and once the board shows up friday, I can cut the expansion slots and i/o shield holes.

AIRFLOW:

The first fan to get cool inlet air is the GPU. Airflow passes over the harddrive(s) on the way to it so the drive does get some cooling. GPU blows hot air out of the chassis. A barrier down the middle of the chassis then directs remaining airflow towards the front where some is sucked out by the PSU. PSU blows hot air out of the chassis. The airflow continues over the northbridge heatsink then sucked through the CPU heatsink by the CPU blower. CPU blows hot air out of the chassis. No hot air is recirculated inside. I've spent alot of time testing many different configurations and this is an epic win by far.

I know I know... Pics soon.

EDIT - Here is a picture showing airflow through the chassis. The yellow line is the barrier I mentioned. It also serves to hold the riser card. The CPU fan shown is not what I'll be using. I'm using a blower as shown in the second pic. The HD5870 size cards will fit. Who knows if the 480w Micro-ATX can run it.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 10, 2011)

I hit up the PSU calculator http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine and put the following.

Mini-ITX motherboard
QX9650@3ghz (I have one to test)
2 sticks DDR-2
HD5870
1 SATA HDD
1 SSD HDD
1 DVD-RW
2 USB devices (mouse/keyboard)
10% capacitor aging
90% system load

The KDM is rated at 480w so it will have to be a high quality PSU to manage the load. I'm sure the system will draw less then 423w unless your crunching.


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## Thrackan (Mar 10, 2011)

If a 480w PSU can't handle a 400w load it's crap imho... Any PSU should be able to do that.
Unless you're going to be completely stressing both CPU and GPU at the same time, it should not even touch 400w.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 10, 2011)

Thrackan said:


> If a 480w PSU can't handle a 400w load it's crap imho... Any PSU should be able to do that.
> Unless you're going to be completely stressing both CPU and GPU at the same time, it should not even touch 400w.



That's what I figured. I read andand's review of the HD 5870 just to see what their results were. With their DX58SO i7 3.33ghz test rig they managed 401w running the OCCT benchmark. I'm more worried about the noise. That KDM 480 is a 80 PFC supply. It should do fine.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2841/26

If a 480w PSU can't do 480w it's junk. lol

EDIT - I take that back. The 520 has active-PFC but the 480 is "high efficiency" . It doesn't specifically state any active-PFC.


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## Thrackan (Mar 10, 2011)

Our own TPU review says ~150w 'peak' and 212w as an absolute max on the 5870.

And noise can be fixed ofc  Better fan and/or more air holes in the PSU maybe?


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 10, 2011)

Thrackan said:


> Our own TPU review says ~150w 'peak' and 212w as an absolute max on the 5870.
> 
> And noise can be fixed ofc  Better fan and/or more air holes in the PSU maybe?



It has 2x 60mm fans and you know what a pair of small fans can sound like when they resonate. Everything shows up friday so we'll see. I'm still tempted to pick up a 520w just to compair. The 520 has 2 express power connectors also.


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## DrunkenMafia (Mar 10, 2011)

FYI

I have a mate who has a shuttle with a 450w psu and it runs a HD5870 fine, has been for about 18 months.  He has E8600, 4gb & 2 HDD's.

Good luck with the build Lazzer


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## Geofrancis (Mar 10, 2011)

good to see the project still going! i have gave up on ITX computers for now. the lack of expandability was starting to get to me. like being stuck with onboard audio  so im onto the micro atx computers again so i can use my 4870 x2 without having to jump through hoops getting specific power supplys and cases then hoping it will all work.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 10, 2011)

Geofrancis said:


> good to see the project still going! i have gave up on ITX computers for now. the lack of expandability was starting to get to me. like being stuck with onboard audio  so im onto the micro atx computers again so i can use my 4870 x2 without having to jump through hoops getting specific power supplys and cases then hoping it will all work.



What's wrong with on-board audio? Hopefully some day I can offer this as a bare-bones. That's why I'm spending so much time sorting things out so the customer doesn't have to. It wouldn't be hard to scale this into a m-ATX platform either. I have given thought to it. My bottom line is to make this as small as I can while maintaining off-the-shelf components. The only thing that's not available, besides the chassis itself, is the CPU fan but a stock low-profile Intel cooler will work ok as long as your not overclocking.

All I managed to finish today was a mock-up for the PSU mount/duct.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 11, 2011)

Small update:

I didn't like the PSU mounting method so I've altered it. Besides the divider between the videocard and motherboard, I'll also intergrate part of the PSU mount into another divider between the PSU and motherboard. There's a piece of 1/2" angle sticking up in the air. This will become the mount for one side of the power supply. The other side of the PSU will use a similar mounting method attached to the front face. The dividers will be punched full of holes/slots and are not complete and could even hold a small 40~60mm fan inside the chassis to assist circulation.
The first divider I mentioned, between the videocard and motherboard, will hold the 16x PCI-E riser card and is also 1/2 of the hard drive mounting rails. I posted the example I used before of the harddrive mounting. It'll be the bottom 2 examples in the last photo.

I just wanted to throw up a pic to maintain interest.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 12, 2011)

Here's some sexy updates.

Hard drive rails isolated from main chassis with grommets. Drive rail is drilled for a single 3.5" but I will be adding a set of holes to mount 2x 2.5" drives. Either will fit.

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EDIT - FAIL! I think the HDD was to close to the videocard. Depending on the location of the videocard's fan, it could interfere with the airflow. There was only 1/4" between them. I'll have to put the gromets on the drive itself and bolt the rails straight to the chassis. Not a big deal. DVD is now mounted.
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A PCI-E flex riser was used and hard mounted to the internal structure of the chassis. It has a latch to hold the card edge into the connector and is rock solid.

The motherboard now has it's own chamber. This served as the PCI-E slot mount and should help keep the motherboard and CPU much cooler. The videocard creates a fair amount of heat off it's back that isn't drawn out the by it's fan. I'd like to keep that heat away from the motherboard. I'll put holes in the back of the chassis above the i/o shield for the cpu blower to draw air into the chamber. That will allow only cool air to enter the chamber. Heat from the videocard will be pulled through the chassis and drawn out by the PSU fans.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 13, 2011)

My drive rails will not fit in the space I provided when I use grommets. =(  In the begining of the 2nd chassis, I reduced it from 12.5" wide to 12" wide.  I made it to narrow to mount my drives on grommets. BUT!  I had a great idea.  If I go back to 12.5 wide I'll have room for USB ports in front on the left side, have my HDD grommets, and here's the sweet part. If I align the drive right, I'll have room for a 2x 2.5" mobile rack in the rear of the chassis below the graphics card for easy drive access without having to remove the cover.


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## l0ud_sil3nc3 (Mar 13, 2011)

very nice thread, I love following mitx builds


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks. Glad someone is liking it. =)

I ran to Microcenter and picked up a 2x 2.5" mobile rack. It has all the same bolt pattern as a 3.5" drive so either the mobile rack or a 3.5" HDD will fit.  The graphics fan looks tight but I can actually fit my thumb in there so it should flow nicely.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 14, 2011)

Well cough up another dead board for Zotac!  I managed to power this thing up maybe 5 or 6 times and now it's dead.  So I guess the whole project comes to a screetching stop until I get an RMA from Schmotac. =(


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## Geofrancis (Mar 14, 2011)

thats crap man


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 14, 2011)

Geofrancis said:


> thats crap man



I know.  You ever look at the Newegg reviews on these things?  They drop like flies.


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## stevednmc (Mar 14, 2011)

That sux about the mobo! Ive been following this build for a longtime, i cant wait to see the finished product!


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## Geofrancis (Mar 14, 2011)

have you found a power supply to run it yet? i came across this psu when i was researching a different project.

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/350w-be-quiet-bn134-80-plus-86-eff-sfx-micro-atx


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 14, 2011)

Geofrancis said:


> have you found a power supply to run it yet? i came across this psu when i was researching a different project.
> 
> http://www.scan.co.uk/products/350w-be-quiet-bn134-80-plus-86-eff-sfx-micro-atx



http://www.directron.com/m7480dmmicro.html

I bought the KDM 480w.  So far it runs a Core2Duo and the HD5870 and made it through 3dMark11 with no problems.  It runs very cool but the fan controller isn't working.  The fans run on high all the time even if the system is idle.  It's always blowing cold air so the fans don't need to be running so fast.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 14, 2011)

It looks like the PCI-E port has stopped functioning.  It will post and boot using the on-board video but I've tried 4 PCI-E cards and none of them will post.  Tried resetting the BIOS.  Tried another power supply.  Tried other memory.  Notta.  I don't think the flex riser would have caused this problem.  It worked a few times then quit.  Have to RMA the board I guess.

EDIT - I had it working for a little while by setting the BIOS to initialize the PCI-E graphics first.  I managed to boot into Windows with the HD5870 installed and run Prime95 for a few minutes to watch temps.  It hit 58c.  When I closed Prime95, the desktop went black, came back, went black again then locked.  I hit reset only to power up with no video.  I shut it down and tried the on-board again and it powered up with a black screen.  I tried switching the memory and was trying one stick at a time and now it's completely dead.  No power at all.  Tried another power supply and it's still dead.

Zotac has a horrible reputation for these boards dying.  There's I think 3 or 4 versions of the 775 board and they still don't have it right.  That's too bad too because there isn't many options for ITX boards that have a PCI-E connector. It was nice to have a cheap ITX 775 board to stick our old hardware into but what good it is if they drop like flies?

I sent Zotac an a$$reaming email.  I wonder if they'll respond.

EDIT - Bought another board.  Testing now.  So far so good but I wonder how long this one will last. :/  New board works but instability when using the flex extention cable. =(  I wonder if that's what cause the first board to fail.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 15, 2011)

STABILITY! 

The errors with the graphics card detection/initialization/corruption were solved with aluminum duct tape.  The graphics card is now furmark torture stable.  (HD5870)

I also started mounting the power supply and bought some mini SATA cables. There's -some- room behind the psu, and above the optical drive, for the bulk of the wiring. I actually need just one molex connector that goes to a diy splitter to feed the mobile rack and the optical drive. I have to clean up the wiring on the PSU but I wasn't done testing it. After all, if it couldn't run the system why hack it up?

You may also notice the PCI-E power connectors stick past the edge of the chassis. I mentioned I was making it 0.5" wider so I'll have plenty of room.

And for the first of many new CPU load tests... My little 1.8ghz C2D test chip managed only 39c after 15min of prime with my blower.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 16, 2011)

Having delt with a pci-e flex risers problem with interference, I've decided to use a short PCB riser and relocate the graphics card to the bottom of the chassis.  I'm using 3/8" rubber feet and placing vents in the chassis bottom for the graphics card to draw air from.  The drives are then located above the graphics card which makes them easier to access.  Unfortunatly that area can get pretty toasty.  To help with that heat, the side vents will be pushed towards the top rear.  The air drawn in by the PSU fans will enter there.  These changes moved the graphics card over about 0.5" allowing room for the pci-e power connectors so the chassis will not have to be made wider after all.  The harddrive mount can now make use of the motherboard partition as one of it's mounts.  I'll bend a bracket for the other side.

The pci-e short riser is also $30 less expencive then the flex riser.


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## Geofrancis (Mar 16, 2011)

Lazzer408 said:


> Having delt with a pci-e flex risers problem with interference, I've decided to use a short PCB riser and relocate the graphics card to the bottom of the chassis.  I'm using 3/8" rubber feet and placing vents in the chassis bottom for the graphics card to draw air from.  The drives are then located above the graphics card which makes them easier to access.  Unfortunatly that area can get pretty toasty.  To help with that heat, the side vents will be pushed towards the top rear.  The air drawn in by the PSU fans will enter there.  These changes moved the graphics card over about 0.5" allowing room for the pci-e power connectors so the chassis will not have to be made wider after all.  The harddrive mount can now make use of the motherboard partition as one of it's mounts.  I'll bend a bracket for the other side.
> 
> The pci-e short riser is also $30 less expencive then the flex riser.
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41146&stc=1&d=1300293697



was it the pci-e flexible riser that was causing all the stabibity problems you were having before? that could explain some of the anomalies i was having when i was using my 4850 on a flexible riser. i always thought it was a power problem because it only happened when my graphics card was in. nice catch tho working that one out


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 16, 2011)

Geofrancis said:


> was it the pci-e flexible riser that was causing all the stabibity problems you were having before? that could explain some of the anomalies i was having when i was using my 4850 on a flexible riser. i always thought it was a power problem because it only happened when my graphics card was in. nice catch tho working that one out



The first problem was the graphics card issue that was caused by the flex riser.  Sometimes it would post and boot but once Windows loaded the graphics driver it would hang.  Other times it would either not detect the card and default to the onboard graphics or not post at all.  Shielding the riser's ribbon cables with aluminum tape cured both problems and was 100% Furmark stable.  The motherboard finally died after only a few successfull boots.  It would be my opinion that those two problems were completely unrelated.

The new board and short riser are working great.  I'm currently making the other HDD bracket and the inlet vents in the bottom of the chassis.  This is going to work out well.  If the other drive rail extends all the way to the front, it can serve to support one side of the optical drive.  This leaves enough room on the far left front for a card reader or USB ports.  I still have plenty of room for cables and the front display which is now located below the optical drive.


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## Lazzer408 (Mar 17, 2011)

Couple more pics.  If it looks like the optical drive is set back, it is.  I can take another 3/8" off the front now.  I'm hells bent on making this 12x12x3".  The back of the case will be removable and with it removed, the graphics card can be removed without having to take anything else off.  The hard drive can also be removed without having to take anything else but the top cover off.  The optical drive can be removed fairly easily but the PSU has to be lifted up to get to the screws.  All in all it's pretty easy to work on.


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## xBruce88x (Mar 17, 2011)

lookin sweet so far!


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## stevenmichael (Apr 27, 2020)

Lazzer408 said:


> The 12v power is solved!  I managed to fit the Vector Travelmate adaptor just under the video card. I made a new heatsink that is shorter and puts the fins horizontal and parallel the airflow through the case. I have just just enough room for a small fan (probably 2) and the usb pcb just fits in that notch as if it was ment to be. Now to knock out the ATX supply, power/reset buttons, and LEDs.


  I need the small black box that is just above the 1 in the HT7001  number on the board . This same board is in the Vector travel mate ac/dc converter  model vec004 . The little box blow up  and you can see in my photo  its not there any more .


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## Caring1 (Apr 27, 2020)

Holy necro Batman.


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## stevenmichael (Apr 27, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> Holy necro Batman.


Do you know how I can go about  finding that little  box electronic  piece ?


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