# NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Pictured?



## btarunr (Jun 6, 2020)

Here are what could be the very first pictures of a reference NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 "Ampere" graphics card revealing an unusual board design, which is the biggest departure in NVIDIA's design schemes since the original GeForce TITAN. It features a dual-fan aluminium fin-stack cooler, except that one of its fans is located on the obverse side, and the other on the reverse side of the card. The PCB of the card appears to extend only two-thirds the length of the card, ending in an inward cutout, beyond which there's only an extension of the cooling solution. The cooler shroud, rather than being a solid covering of the heatsink, is made of aluminium heatsink ridges. All in all, a very unusual design, which NVIDIA could implement on its top-tier SKUs, such as the RTX 3080, RTX 3080 Ti, and in a cosmetic form on lower SKUs. We get the feeling that "Cyberpunk 2077" has influenced this design. 



 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## birdie (Jun 6, 2020)

This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away. OEMs mustn't even have the chips at this point.

*Edit*: some interesting analysis hinting that the card/leak could be very much real:



> 1. One of the shrouds has a small little tiny "NVIDIA" logo, no faker would invest time into putting a small logo on these types of things. It would require pretty specific tooling and usually with fakers they love to put the logo big so that there's no ambiguity to the fake.
> 2. Irregular PCB shape, both Komachi and Kitty have said this in prior leaks.
> 3. It says EMC Certification Pending on the PCI-E connector.
> 4. The design looks familiar to NVIDIA and it's clear NVIDIA loves to change their cooler design every generation, it's definitely unique for a reference card, but too complex for a faker to make themselves, most fakers do something dumb like add three fans based on the existing cooler and call it a day for their "leak".
> 5. The blue plastic wrap, any faker wouldn't leave this on, they always like the logos to appear unobstructed, also it just seems too legit to have the blue plastic wrap on there.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2020)

all the fins!!! THE POWER WILL BE ULTIMATE!!!!!  

actually that is a brilliant design... especially if your PC case has good airflow lol



birdie said:


> This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away.




big navi 2 is already officially coming in September. it makes sense Nvidia would want to respond in kind, even if its a limited launch, now that AMD has officially said Big Navi will arrive in September, Nvidia won't risk losing out on the cyberpunk 2077 market to them. Ampere will be here in Septemeber you better believe it homie.


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## btarunr (Jun 6, 2020)

birdie said:


> This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away.


For a card to show up in some mom and pop PC store in Nebraska on product launch day, it's usually on the factory floor 4-5 months prior.

These pics look like they were taken at NVIDIA's NVTTM (NVIDIA Time to Market) board OEM.


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## Caring1 (Jun 6, 2020)

I can't see what power pins it takes, but if they can limit it to a 6 pin that would be great.


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## Animalpak (Jun 6, 2020)

Back to GTX 480 concept ? Like the heatsink is also half of the cover/body.

I really like the concept, maybe these graphics card are not hot as usual i hope so. Especially the fact that theres only one fan.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

the hell is this.weird.but looks good tbh.completely unlike custom coolers we have atm.



Caring1 said:


> I can't see what power pins it takes, but if they can limit it to a 6 pin that would be great.


why ? that'd suck.
let me have all of its 250w headroom.just make the cooler better!


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## The Quim Reaper (Jun 6, 2020)

3D printers sure have enabled the fakers...


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2020)

rtx 3080 is backwards i think. also, the fan blades are melded onto the side... so unless the whole fan spins... yeah im betting these are fake actually. see that gray? that fan can't spin boys.  

def looks like a 3d printer. the metal parts tricked me though.


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## Calmmo (Jun 6, 2020)

The only thing this really is is ugly.


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## ZoneDymo (Jun 6, 2020)

nevermind


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## P4-630 (Jun 6, 2020)

_Alleged pictures of the upcoming GeForce RTX 3080 graphics cards have been leaked on Chiphell. The models photographed by a leaker are clearly prototypes or engineering samples likely to be one of the many suggested designs for the final choice. The design does appear to be NVIDIA’s.

The card design features a two-fan with a large heatsink likely to be hidden under a shroud, we can see the RTX 3080 backplate on one of the prototypes. The blue color of the upper sample is not the color of the card, this is just a wrap of the silver metallic shroud around the card. The design is very unique, both fans are placed on opposite sides of the card pushing the air in different directions.

The RTX 3080 design features an irregular shaped PCB, you can see this by looking at the rear of the card. This V-shaped design has allowed NVIDIA to place a fan pushing the air through the PCB, without extending the size of the card. This is a similar approach as to GeForce GTX 295 model, which also had a cut in the PCB near the fan.

We can’t see any power connectors in a typical place, which could mean that the connectors have been moved to the side, like on Quadro models. There also appears to be a new version of the NVLink connector near the I/O bracket._

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3080-pictured


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2020)

P4-630 said:


> _Alleged pictures of the upcoming GeForce RTX 3080 graphics cards have been leaked on Chiphell. The models photographed by a leaker are clearly prototypes or engineering samples likely to be one of the many suggested designs for the final choice. The design does appear to be NVIDIA’s.
> 
> The card design features a two-fan with a large heatsink likely to be hidden under a shroud, we can see the RTX 3080 backplate on one of the prototypes. The blue color of the upper sample is not the color of the card, this is just a wrap of the silver metallic shroud around the card. The design is very unique, both fans are placed on opposite sides of the card pushing the air in different directions.
> 
> ...




any idea why the fan looks 3d printed and can't move as i showed in the screenshot a few posts up?


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## ZeppMan217 (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> any idea why the fan looks 3d printed and can't move as i showed in the screenshot a few posts up?


_



			The models photographed by a leaker are clearly prototypes or engineering samples likely to be one of the many suggested designs for the final choice.
		
Click to expand...

_Nope, Chuck Testa.


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## renz496 (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think. also, the fan blades are melded onto the side... so unless the whole fan spins... yeah im betting these are fake actually. see that gray? that fan can't spin boys.
> 
> def looks like a 3d printer. the metal parts tricked me though.



isn't such design becoming more common for fans lately?


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## PhantomTaco (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think. also, the fan blades are melded onto the side... so unless the whole fan spins... yeah im betting these are fake actually. see that gray? that fan can't spin boys.
> 
> def looks like a 3d printer. the metal parts tricked me though.



What part of that looks like it's been 3d printed? I see no signs of z-height stepping, and no other obvious surface finish issues. As for the fan design being fake/can't spin: pretty untrue. Fused cage impeller design is not a new thing; look into Noiseblocker's eLoop fans:


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## Valantar (Jun 6, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> I can't see what power pins it takes, but if they can limit it to a 6 pin that would be great.


 
For an xx80 SKU? Are you delirious? Below 150W? There is no way on earth that is happening, if for no other reason than that leaving too much upwards room for higher end cards. If it was that low power they could reach the same performance with a higher clocked lower size chip and thus increase their margins.



Two issues: this design doesn't seem to have room for any PCIe power plugs. They could possibly fit in the corners next to the fan, but that would be very tight. And the PCB is very small for a reference board, with the odd layout not being very cost effective. Fitting more than 8GB of GDDR6 on a board that small would be a challenge for sure, especially with the odd shape.



Animalpak said:


> Back to GTX 480 concept ? Like the heatsink is also half of the cover/body.
> 
> I really like the concept, maybe these graphics card are not hot as usual i hope so. Especially the fact that theres only one fan.





ZoneDymo said:


> why just 1 fan?


There are two fans, one on the front and one on the back. Did you not read the post?



lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think. also, the fan blades are melded onto the side... so unless the whole fan spins... yeah im betting these are fake actually. see that gray? that fan can't spin boys.
> 
> def looks like a 3d printer. the metal parts tricked me though.


Fans with some sort of ring connecting the blades aren't that uncommon. The faster Gentle Typhoons had that, for example, and some others too. It's especially useful for counteracting blades stretching and hitting the surrounding frame/heatsink without resorting to exotic materials.


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## efikkan (Jun 6, 2020)

birdie said:


> This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away. OEMs mustn't even have the chips at this point.


We are now approaching the time partners could get their hands on hardware. Assuming the launch window is around September, they would certainly have approximate PCB specs etc. by now, possibly even working engineering samples, but probably not the final stepping and certainly not the final clock speeds.

I have no opinion on whether these are genuine or not though.



lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think.


Yeah, it's upside down.
This could be even a non-functional prototype, if not fake of course.

But anyway, it took Apple many years to realize their logo were upside down on their MacBooks


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> any idea why the fan looks 3d printed and can't move as i showed in the screenshot a few posts up?


It's called using a phone to take pictures with. Also, look at how the cards are lit and I think you're looking at shows/light, not something 3D printed, or it's a different type of fan as suggested above.

From everything I know when it comes to how things are done during manufacturing at board/card makers, this looks legit in terms of the blue plastic strips to keep things clean/scratch free, to the paper labels on which they write sample notes. I don't think this is fake as such.
I do think these are prototypes though and might just be mechanical samples, rather than fully working cards.


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## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think.





efikkan said:


> Yeah, it's upside down.


What?


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## Fouquin (Jun 6, 2020)

birdie said:


> This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away. OEMs mustn't even have the chips at this point.



I've got functional qualification samples that predate their respective retail launch by up to 6 months. It's definitely not too early.


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## Ubersonic (Jun 6, 2020)

Damn that is a weird design, fans on both sides.  I wish Nvidia would go back to using blower coolers on reference cards instead of second rate alternatives that are worse that all the AIB cards but don't work in workstations anymore.


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## Dazzm8 (Jun 6, 2020)

Didn't the R9 Fury X become really small due to it's use of HBM?

Could it be that nvidia is using HBM2 or is this due to another reason?


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## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

Let's hope this is relatively slow and Navi 21 completely obliterates it.


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## dyonoctis (Jun 6, 2020)

Ubersonic said:


> Damn that is a weird design, fans on both sides.  I wish Nvidia would go back to using blower coolers on reference cards instead of second rate alternatives that are worse that all the AIB cards but don't work in workstations anymore.


The rtx 2xxx ref design isn't stricly worse than all the other AIB, they have a good balance between temp, silence and size. Msi cards are often too tall (and without recessed power pin)  Asus card are either really tall, or really long and thick. Zotac small cards are not silent at all.  Those founder edition are a godsend for small cases.

And you can still get aftermarket blower cooler :


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## Decryptor009 (Jun 6, 2020)

Being honest here, if this is how it will look, it's awesome. Adopting a no nonsense approach, clearly 3080 is going to be a power hungry beast, but cooling is going to need to be stepped up. Looks like Nvidia are doing a Fermi all over again but i reckon that thing will remain under control with temperature and not be that loud.


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## ZeppMan217 (Jun 6, 2020)

I'm curious as to how well that top/bottom fans setup's gonna compare to the standard one sided dual fan one.


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## btarunr (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think. also, the fan blades are melded onto the side... so unless the whole fan spins... yeah im betting these are fake actually. see that gray? that fan can't spin boys.
> 
> def looks like a 3d printer. the metal parts tricked me though.



Google "ASUS Axial Tech"


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 6, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269217948721270791


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## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

ZeppMan217 said:


> I'm curious as to how well that top/bottom fans setup's gonna compare to the standard one side dual fan one.




It's very possible that this front/rear fans setup is more efficient than the classic one-sided fans setup, hence they'd like to implement it for the first time.
If it's worse, why bother at all ?


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> View attachment 158029
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269217948721270791


wth



ARF said:


> Let's hope this is relatively slow


actually let's *you* hope that and the rest don't.



Decryptor009 said:


> Being honest here, if this is how it will look, it's awesome. Adopting a no nonsense approach, clearly 3080 is going to be a power hungry beast, but cooling is going to need to be stepped up. Looks like Nvidia are doing a Fermi all over again but i reckon that thing will remain under control with temperature and not be that loud.


we've come so far that there's coolers that can keep vega 64 quiet on air,and that's a 280w card.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2020)

this is actually a very cool design the more i think on it. hmm.  hope this is legit. i hope both ampere and big navi come out in september, looks like that is what is coming. going to be a glorious month boys!!! w1zz better have the reviews rockin' in September cause i need to know what to click buy on.  if gamersnexus says driver stability issues again with his big navi review i guess im going to roll the 3080


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## Valantar (Jun 6, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> View attachment 158029
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269217948721270791


That die and VRAM layout looks unrealistically close to the display outputs. There would be no room for the circuitry necessary to make the outputs work unless they're doing something exotic.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 6, 2020)

birdie said:


> This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away. OEMs mustn't even have the chips at this point.


True but with all the news of Big Navi ,this traditional Pr release by Nvidia is mostly to remind people it is on the way, I quite like the look of it, also appears to be a novel but possibly effective method of cooling tbf.


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## sutyi (Jun 6, 2020)

Ubersonic said:


> Damn that is a weird design, fans on both sides.  I wish Nvidia would go back to using blower coolers on reference cards instead of second rate alternatives that are worse that all the AIB cards but don't work in workstations anymore.



If you take a second look you'll see the two fans have different blade designs, one is airflow optimized and the other is pressure optimized.


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## dyonoctis (Jun 6, 2020)

Valantar said:


> That die and VRAM layout looks unrealistically close to the display outputs. There would be no room for the circuitry necessary to make the outputs work unless they're doing something exotic.


They might have found a way to put the VRM on the back even with the odd shape. I'm not fluent enough in electronics to know hard it would be to do so though.


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## dinmaster (Jun 6, 2020)

like the look. hbm as ram would make the card small as an option.  interesting fan and fin design for cooling


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## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

That blue plastic reminds me of this. I'll never see it in reviews tho.


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## btarunr (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> That blue plastic reminds me of this. I'll never see it in reviews tho.
> View attachment 158047


It's just a protective film. There's NVIDIA's favorite shade of silver aluminium underneath.


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## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

btarunr said:


> It's just a protective film. There's NVIDIA's favorite shade of silver aluminium underneath.


Exactly. Like I said, I won't see that plastic in reviews.


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## Caring1 (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> rtx 3080 is backwards i think. also, the fan blades are melded onto the side... so unless the whole fan spins... yeah im betting these are fake actually. see that gray? that fan can't spin boys.
> 
> def looks like a 3d printer. the metal parts tricked me though.


Umm, the fans are made like that.
Jokes on you


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## btarunr (Jun 6, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> View attachment 158029
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269217948721270791


This design is essentially what Sapphire has been doing for ages with its cards where the cooler is longer than the PCB. For example:








...except that the second fan is on the reverse side of the card, exhausting air from the heatsink. I seriously doubt NVIDIA's approach has any advantages over what Sapphire did with the above card.





So there's no fancy push-pull tunnel magic happening. It's just like that sapphire card, with the second fan on the other side, blowing outward.


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## cellar door (Jun 6, 2020)

It looks like a push-pull tunnel. With enough static presure, this design could be very efficient.


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## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

If legit, less VRAM than an RTX 2080 Ti with similar specs. Performance should be around RTX 2080 Ti, too.












						NIVIDIA's RTX 3080 Getting Spec Upgrade? Might Ship With GA 102-200 And 4352 CUDA Cores
					

Specifications of NVIDIA's RTX series appear to be pretty hazy right now with everything from GA104 to GA102 being a possible suspect for this particular iteration. One of the most reliable leakers (for this series) has just posted that they believe the RTX 3080 will actually ship with a...




					wccftech.com


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## Dave65 (Jun 6, 2020)

Ugly as all get out, I can't believe Nvidia would make something that ugly, has to be fake!


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## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

Dave65 said:


> Ugly as all get out, I can't believe Nvidia would make something that ugly, has to be fake!



nVidia is the Intel original of the GPU market. Except that Intel will soon join too.

That is reference, FE design, so no worries, there will be proper AIB other designs.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 6, 2020)

Valantar said:


> That die and VRAM layout looks unrealistically close to the display outputs. There would be no room for the circuitry necessary to make the outputs work unless they're doing something exotic.


It's from some "guy on the internets" so I wouldn't read too much into it.
That said, I don't think it's too hard to make a V shaped VRM layout.


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## Dristun (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> If legit, less VRAM than an RTX 2080 Ti with similar specs. Performance should be around RTX 2080 Ti, too.
> 
> View attachment 158051
> 
> ...



Not a good look for a new flagship to just about keep up with 2-year old Ti, if you'd ask me. Why'd you hope for this? It should comfortably beat a 2-year old card. Another generation of +10% sounds rather bad to me.
2020 is about damn time stable 4k@60 become achievable on a sub-1000$ card. I hope it's faster than Ti.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> If legit, less VRAM than an RTX 2080 Ti with similar specs. *Performance should be around RTX 2080 Ti*, too.
> 
> View attachment 158051
> 
> ...


how can you tell performance ?
new 80s always beat old 80Ti's with less cuda.sometimes by a lot when there's a new node.1080 > 980Ti by 25%


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 6, 2020)

btarunr said:


> This design is essentially what Sapphire has been doing for ages with its cards where the cooler is longer than the PCB. For example:
> 
> View attachment 158050
> View attachment 158049
> ...


I think you got that back to front. Exhaust would be the fan by the bracket, since the hot air should be vented out of the case, no? Also, that fan has no other real direction to blow the air. The rear fan would make more sense if it blows the air through the heatsink on the opposite side, no?



Dave65 said:


> Ugly as all get out, I can't believe Nvidia would make something that ugly, has to be fake!


As suggested elsewhere, it's most likely one of several prototypes in testing.



Dristun said:


> Not a good look for a new flagship to just about keep up with 2-year old Ti, if you'd ask me. Why'd you hope for this? It should comfortably beat a 2-year old card. Another generation of +10% sounds rather bad to me.
> 2020 is about damn time stable 4k@60 become achievable on a sub-1000$ card. I hope it's faster than Ti.


Nah man, Nvidia is going to pull an Intel this year and give us 3-5% performance increase in games, but triple the real time ray tracing performance


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## Caring1 (Jun 6, 2020)

btarunr said:


> This design is essentially what Sapphire has been doing for ages with its cards where the cooler is longer than the PCB.
> ...except that the second fan is on the reverse side of the card, exhausting air from the heatsink. I seriously doubt NVIDIA's approach has any advantages over what Sapphire did with the above card.
> 
> View attachment 158052


The fan on the top of the card, where the RTX 3080 name is, blows down through the grille, it's not an exhaust as the fan blade design dictates direction and flow.


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## efikkan (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> If legit, less VRAM than an RTX 2080 Ti with similar specs. *Performance should be around RTX 2080 Ti*, too.
> 
> View attachment 158051
> 
> ...


That's a very bold prediction. Do you _know_ the performance of the Ampere architecture and the clock speeds it will be running?
And BTW, more VRAM doesn't necessarily yield more performance. More VRAM allows you to run with higher details.

I would be more worried about memory bandwidth. Are there faster than 18 Gb/s GDDR6 yet?


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

efikkan said:


> That's a very bold prediction. Do you _know_ the performance of the Ampere architecture and the clock speeds it will be running?
> And BTW, more VRAM doesn't necessarily yield more performance. More VRAM allows you to run with higher details.
> 
> I would be more worried about memory bandwidth. Are there faster than 18 Gb/s GDDR6 yet?


a 102 die that goes from 5370 to 4350 ? we ever had a big die sku with 20% disabled ? they don't even do this much on 104s.


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## nguyen (Jun 6, 2020)

Looks like 7nm yield hasn't reached maturity parity with 12nm that Nvidia decide to use the GA 102 die for 3 SKUs (Titan, 3090 and 3080) while TU 102 is only used for Titan RTX and 2080Ti.
Let just hope there are enough functioning cores for 3090 and Titan...
Also hope the new PCB design wont delay waterblock release...


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## efikkan (Jun 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> a 102 die that goes from 5370 to 4350 ? we ever had a big die sku with 20% disabled ? they don't even do this much on 104s.


We have seen similar things, like TU104s sold as RTX 2060 (KO) etc., but it's rare.
Since we have so many conflicting rumors about these specs, at most one of them can be true, possibly none of them, so I'm not going to assume any of them are true until we have something more substantive.

But anyway, in my opinion the best reason for using a "GA102" as "RTX 3080" would be to achieve extra memory bandwidth.


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## EarthDog (Jun 6, 2020)

Damn thats fugly...come onnnnn board partners!



Valantar said:


> That die and VRAM layout looks unrealistically close to the display outputs. There would be no room for the circuitry necessary to make the outputs work unless they're doing something different


FTFY. 

That said, I dont think it's too close at all...



ARF said:


> Let's hope this is relatively slow and Navi 21 completely obliterates it.


Where do you get your stuff at? Me want!


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

efikkan said:


> We have seen similar things, like TU104s sold as RTX 2060 (KO) etc., but it's rare.
> Since we have so many conflicting rumors about these specs, at most one of them can be true, possibly none of them, so I'm not going to assume any of them are true until we have something more substantive.
> 
> But anyway, in my opinion the best reason for using a "GA102" as "RTX 3080" would be to achieve extra memory bandwidth.


turing already achieved really good results with 8gb
at 4K 2070s seems to hold its own against 11gb 1080Ti








						NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 Super Founders Edition Review
					

NVIDIA gave the GeForce RTX 20-series a midlife refresh with the new "Super" brand extension in the wake of AMD's upcoming Radeon Navi 7nm GPU. The RTX 2070 is based on the RTX 2080, which means SLI support and more shaders compared to the the original RTX 2070.




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Decryptor009 (Jun 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> how can you tell performance ?
> new 80s always beat old 80Ti's with less cuda.sometimes by a lot when there's a new node.1080 > 980Ti by 25%


25% is nothing, back to Fermi, GTX 480 was ridiculously faster, 5870 was roughly on par with 2 4870's too.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> 25% is nothing, back to Fermi, GTX 480 was ridiculously faster, 5870 was roughly on par with 2 4870's too.


cause it was a bigger die on a smaller node,nothing magical.30% bigger.
they're not gonna make a 1000mm2 gpu now
and apples to apples,1080Ti at 470mm2 was almost 70% faster than 600mm2 980Ti.



EarthDog said:


> Damn thats fugly...come onnnnn board partners!
> 
> FTFY.
> 
> ...


ugly or not,their constant progress with reference coolers drives the prices of aib coolers down.
let's hope amd don't embarass themselves with that friggin blower again.
I'll prolly go with trio again.great on 1080Ti,even better on 2070S.


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## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> 25% is nothing, back to Fermi, GTX 480 was ridiculously faster, 5870 was roughly on par with 2 4870's too.




It's very weird why AMD did what they did with Navi 1st generation.
Why no Big Navi and why not competing with Vega 64/ Vega 64 derivatives in the below Big Navi segments.

They had a 256 mm2 HD 4870 but back then they had a card with 70-80% higher performance.

Now they have nothing.

And if the rumours are true, the smaller Navi 2X chips won't be out before 2021.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> It's very weird why AMD did what they did with Navi 1st generation.
> Why no Big Navi and why not competing with Vega 64/ Vega 64 derivatives in the below Big Navi segments.
> 
> They had a 256 mm2 HD 4870 but back then they had a card with 70-80% higher performance.
> ...


you enjoy rumors,don't you ?


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## Valantar (Jun 6, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> It's from some "guy on the internets" so I wouldn't read too much into it.
> That said, I don't think it's too hard to make a V shaped VRM layout.


Not talking about the VRM, just all the other stuff that needs to go between the die and the I/O.


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## nguyen (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> It's very weird why AMD did what they did with Navi 1st generation.
> Why no Big Navi and why not competing with Vega 64/ Vega 64 derivatives in the below Big Navi segments.
> 
> They had a 256 mm2 HD 4870 but back then they had a card with 70-80% higher performance.
> ...



Easy answer, yield for 7nm was terrible (5600XT-5700-5700XT all use navi 10 die), it's still terrible now for bigger die, plus their CPU designs are winning against Intel, why waste precious 7nm fab when they know their high end GPU would never sell as well as Nvidia.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 6, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Not talking about the VRM, just all the other stuff that needs to go between the die and the I/O.


It's actually not all that much that goes there these days.
I see something that looks like a couple of chokes and what might be some signal amplifiers between the GPU and the I/O, the rest looks pretty empty to me.












						EVGA GeForce RTX 2070 Super KO Review
					

The EVGA GeForce RTX 2070 Super KO is a highly cost-efficient custom-design variant. This dual-slot, dual-fan card comes in at $499, so there is no price increase over NVIDIA MSRP. EVGA's cooler is solid, achieving good temperatures, and idle fan-stop is included, too.




					www.techpowerup.com
				




The reference 2080 has a few more bits there, but not much. I guess that's due to the USB-C port.












						NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Founders Edition 8 GB Review
					

It was very bold of NVIDIA to debut its flagship implementation of the Turing architecture right next to the RTX 2080, poised to be the poster-boy of this architecture. This card packs the promise of real-time ray tracing, of sorts. NVIDIA also put out its best cooler design since TITAN. All...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Valantar (Jun 6, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> It's actually not all that much that goes there these days.
> I see something that looks like a couple of chokes and what might be some signal amplifiers between the GPU and the I/O, the rest looks pretty empty to me.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's a lot less stuff than I'm used to seeing in that area. Guess that solves that problem, even if fitting the power delivery and other circuitry for the VirtualLink would still be an issue I guess that could be squeezed in below the VRAM.


----------



## cueman (Jun 6, 2020)

erhh, when ampere are tested no1 took big navi, or any amd gpus,rtx 3060 is enough and when and if radeon viii aka big navi coming, and if it coming, same thing ,belive it...or not.

fact are, amd use still 7nm process tech without any new arch or updates and top on that hill is ,still 7nm radeon vii gpu, rx 5700 xt little brother is same gpu core with less tmus and rops but clocks maxed what is possible when hardware gadgets taken off.

so only way to get more power radeon vii(i)/big navi is put it inside more tmus and rops...thats all...but if so, except tdp 400W and watercool what i say that if happends ,its 7th wonder for 7nm gpu.
finally, lisa Su says 'we have big navi,sure, nice to ask it,yes its coming..'  this she says only few month ago...i mean time,capice. so its it is radeon vii(i).


ampere leaps are process tech from 12nm to 7nm and new core arch and new cudas innovation cuda 3... any1 need more facts?

stop dream and stop took big navi.. its coming or not,but 7nm ampere coming 100%....just waiting and see.

my opinion is that desktop gpus max tdp should be 200W. if over 100-200 $ tax on it,different is science and other industrial kind using gpus.


naah,, lets joy summer and wait interesting autum with 7nm nvidia ampere (1st 7nm!), 10nm intel cpu (1st under 14nm cpu!), intel 7nm gpu (1st!) and amd erhh, ok, big navi.


----------



## Dante Uchiha (Jun 6, 2020)

It seems that the cooling system is optimized for SLI ? Anyway, I think it's pretty ugly compared to the 2XXX FE model.


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

Dante Uchiha said:


> the 3XXX FE model


Do you have a pic?


----------



## Dante Uchiha (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> Do you have a pic?



Sorry. I just noticed the confusion, I meant 2XXX. XD


----------



## dyonoctis (Jun 6, 2020)

But now I wonder how the 3060 cooler is going to look like. The pcb is already really short on that 3080, I don't see how they can shave 4 cm of that...


----------



## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

nguyen said:


> Easy answer, yield for 7nm was terrible (5600XT-5700-5700XT all use navi 10 die), it's still terrible now for bigger die, plus their CPU designs are winning against Intel, why waste precious 7nm fab when they know their high end GPU would never sell as well as Nvidia.



7nm yields have been great https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cp...uVrfanB-mziRJSJIldcTrB7PwAXx0u2oXyxo9K8BhtICY

5nm yields are even greater https://www.anandtech.com/show/15219/early-tsmc-5nm-test-chip-yields-80-hvm-coming-in-h1-2020








						AMD 'Zen 4' 5nm Products Will Launch In 2021, 5nm Yield Has Already Crossed 7nm
					

AMD has been on a red hot streak lately and it looks like it can't get anything wrong. If this report from China Times is to be believed (and this is usually a reliable source) then TSMC's 5nm testing is going very well and the first 3 customers have already been locked in - including […]




					wccftech.com
				





Big Navi wouldn't have used too much capacity, it would have been enthusiast level with lower quantity of sales.


----------



## nguyen (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> 7nm yields have been great https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cp...uVrfanB-mziRJSJIldcTrB7PwAXx0u2oXyxo9K8BhtICY
> 
> 5nm yields are even greater https://www.anandtech.com/show/15219/early-tsmc-5nm-test-chip-yields-80-hvm-coming-in-h1-2020
> 
> ...



Zen 2 die are only 70mm2 vs Navi 10 251mm2. If you only get 70% yield with a 70mm2 chip, imagine the yield at 500mm2.


----------



## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

nguyen said:


> Zen 2 die are only 70mm2 vs Navi 10 251mm2. If you only get 70% yield with a 70mm2 chip, imagine the yield at 500mm2.



The costs are normally transferred to the consumers, anyways.
Halo products like Big Navi are very important in order to show to the consumers that the company can in reality make cutting-edge products, not just entry-level and mid-range. Halo is important to keep a recognisable brand reputation and awareness.

Also, it'd have very positive effect on the overall competitiveness and pricing structure. RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT were launched too expensive.

AMD should have launched the Navi 10 with proper voltage at 150-watt, and then build the product stack up and down as the wish.
Instead, there is just super duper expensive Navi 10 cards with crazy overclocks reaching staggering 250-300-watt TDP.


Competition but real one in order to keep the prices in check.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jun 6, 2020)

So, they are 3D printing hype trains now.


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

Seems like the front exhaust will feed the rear fan with hot air. If the fans were on the same side then I guess the heat from the front exhaust would go directly to the CPU area..


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> The costs are normally transferred to the consumers, anyways.
> Halo products like Big Navi are very important in order to show to the consumers that the company can in reality make cutting-edge products, not just entry-level and mid-range. Halo is important to keep a recognisable brand reputation and awareness.
> 
> Also, it'd have very positive effect on the overall competitiveness and pricing structure. RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT were launched too expensive.
> ...



Seriously man just stop talking because every post you try to talk yourself out of your own BS is diggin a deeper hole. It happened with browsers, and its happening here. Why, I wonder... You can also just admit you don't know jack squat and start learning. This forum is full of people ready to educate. But when they do so, you stick to your ideas - with no basis.

Its not like the facade is working either. 

At its core you're not wrong about halo product... but the learning point here is about yields and fabs, how they work and why they work like they do. Its great to understand that because chip size and all that are very strong bits of info to gauge what'll happen next, and why companies do what they do. Simple rule of thumb, no matter what news you read: the larger the die, the lower the yield. This in turn automatically, always means that smaller chips are far easier to make cost effectively. Big chips are extremely difficult to make without losing money, or pricing them out of this world. Examples everywhere. 2080ti; Turing pre Super even was expensive across the whole stack. Even the Supers are a result of better yields. That wasnt just lack of competition. It was a series of big dies with little to show for it. This is also why Navi 1st gen was pretty good for AMD. The die wasn't too big. And its why GCN was long overdue for a shrink or overhaul: dies got too large and competitor could do the same with smaller ones. The gap was even large enough that Nvidia could pull a Turing on 12nm and still come out winning.



Mats said:


> Seems like the front exhaust will feed the rear fan with hot air. If the fans were on the same side then I guess the heat from the front exhaust would go directly to the CPU area..
> View attachment 158066



As I see it, this card will exhaust much like a blower, likely having the usual ventilation holes at the outputs- end of the card, and possibly the opposite end? Like a double radial blower, kind of idea. That makes for two very short paths for air to go through and avoids any sort of turbulence from multiple directions of airflow. Just two separate chambers, really. Given the location of PCB, one of those fans is just there to cool heatsink and the other is blasting away over the die.

Both fans are definitely *intakes*.


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> As I see it, this card will exhaust much like a blower, likely having the usual ventilation holes at the outputs- end of the card, and possibly the opposite end? Like a double radial blower, kind of idea. That makes for two very short paths for air to go through and avoids any sort of turbulence from multiple directions of airflow. Just two separate chambers, really. Given the location of PCB, one of those fans is just there to cool heatsink and the other is blasting away over the die.
> 
> Both fans are definitely *intakes*.


Of course they're both intakes. I guess we need a pic from the front to see what's happening here.

Oh and thanks for talking to mr Fair and Balanced over there..


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> Of course they're both intakes. I guess we need a pic from the front to see what's happening here.
> 
> Oh and thanks for talking to mr Fair and Balanced over there..



Well we have the top and bottom shots and I don't see any notable exhaust there other than the grille kinda thing on one side. Still doesn't explain the other fan's exhaust, so that might well be out the back then. The options are pretty limited.

Interesting design that is for sure lol


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

@Vayra86 Have a look at the fins on the front, the rear ones (*1*) are pointing towards the back, like expected, but in the front they're arrow shaped (*2*). Could be decoration, but if so, why doesn't it match the direction of (1)? Then again there are no such thing on the back of the card (*3*) that matches (*4*).


Yeah, it doesn't have to make sense, as we don't know how it works so far.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> @Vayra86 Have a look at the fins on the front, the rear ones (*1*) are pointing towards the back, like expected, but in the front they're arrow shaped (*2*). Could be decoration, but if so, why doesn't it match the direction of (1)? Then again there are no such thing on the back of the card (*3*) that matches (*4*).
> View attachment 158068
> Yeah, it doesn't have to make sense, as we don't know how it works so far.



The plot thickens... as do the heatsinks... is this 2.5 slot? Seems fat


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

Too many imperfections between the fins to be fake/decoration.






Vayra86 said:


> is this 2.5 slot? Seems fat


I don't think so, compare with the rear bracket. I don't think anything thicker than dual slot would be accepted for a FE.

Fin direction could be an indication of heatpipe direction, as seen in most coolers, but that 45° angle makes no sense..
Edit: Although you'll get larger contact area between heatpipe and fin!


----------



## dyonoctis (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> Too many imperfections between the fins to be fake/decoration.
> View attachment 158069
> 
> 
> ...


It's even bent ( forgive my dirty copy paste without anti-aliasing) :



As I see it it's a bit more rad surface without adding too much bulk. The fin density looks great, better than some cheap cards.


----------



## ARF (Jun 6, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Seriously man just stop talking because every post you try to talk yourself out of your own BS is diggin a deeper hole. It happened with browsers, and its happening here. Why, I wonder... You can also just admit you don't know jack squat and start learning. This forum is full of people ready to educate. But when they do so, you stick to your ideas - with no basis.
> 
> Its not like the facade is working either.
> 
> At its core you're not wrong about halo product...



So, I am not wrong but I am digging a hole. You are in your hole. You need an education from me, not me from you 
Not I am driving companies to bankruptcy but people with silly management just like yours would be.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 6, 2020)

ARF said:


> So, I am not wrong but I am digging a hole. You are in your hole. You need an education from me, not me from you
> Not I am driving companies to bankruptcy but people with silly management just like yours would be.



Okay!


----------



## matar (Jun 6, 2020)

WOW sweet so sad for those who just bought RTX 2080 ti this month


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

matar said:


> WOW sweet so sad for those who just bought RTX 2080 ti this month


they have a 2080Ti and you don't is what that comment tells me 

I hope this cooler approach is very good and quiet,so that aibs are pushed to make better coolers priced lower.


----------



## RH92 (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> Fin direction could be an indication of heatpipe direction, as seen in most coolers, but that 45° angle makes no sense..
> Edit: Although you'll get larger contact area between heatpipe and fin!



Assuming heat-pipes are involved which IMO is not the case , considering Nvidia past coolers more likely than not we are probably looking at two separated ( or not ) vapor chambers .


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

RH92 said:


> Assuming heat-pipes are involved which IMO is not the case , considering Nvidia past coolers more likely than not we are probably looking at two separated ( or not ) vapor chambers .


That still doesn't explain the all those different fin directions.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> That still doesn't explain the all those different fin directions.


once one of the fans dies you flip over the cooler and you're good to go again


----------



## thesmokingman (Jun 6, 2020)

The aesthetic is a real departure for Nvidia. I'm not sure it's  hmm, manly enough for a top end card as strange as that may sound. Maybe it'll grow on us?


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> The aesthetic is a real departure for Nvidia. I'm not sure it's  hmm, manly enough for a top end card as strange as that may sound. Maybe it'll grow on us?


there's gonna be a shroud on that maybe possibly probably


----------



## matar (Jun 6, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> they have a 2080Ti and you don't is what that comment tells me
> 
> I hope this cooler approach is very good and quiet,so that aibs are pushed to make better coolers priced lower.


lol i dont ,i still have my desktop, buti have moved the laptop way  AROUS X7 DT i7-6820HK @3.8GHZ all cores with no extra voltage and a full desktop GTX 980 with 8GB @1300MHZ


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

matar said:


> lol i dont ,i still have my desktop, buti have moved the laptop way  AROUS X7 DT i7-6820HK @3.8GHZ all cores with no extra voltage and a full desktop GTX 980 with 8GB @1300MHZ


could never get into laptops since I'm a silence maniac.


----------



## RH92 (Jun 6, 2020)

Mats said:


> That still doesn't explain the all those different fin directions.



One explanation might be they want to isolate the airflow between the  two supposed  vapor chambers .  But i have to agree the airflow pattern is very hard to grasp .

The only logical airflow pattern i can come up with would be this one : 





So in essence 2/3 of the heatsink area is dedicated to the core/memory cooling   and will blow hot air from the sides , while the other 1/3 is dedicated to VRM cooling . 

Still weird AF  i have to admit !


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

even if photo is legit,we don't know if this makes it to production in this form or at all.


----------



## Mats (Jun 6, 2020)

@RH92 The yellow arrows are just like the one I posted. But still, I fail to see why the front fins have a different layout.



cucker tarlson said:


> even if photo is legit,we don't know if this makes it to production in this form or at all.


Given how the fins have been bent, I doubt this will be the final design.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 6, 2020)

RH92 said:


> One explanation might be they want to isolate the airflow between the  two supposed  vapor chambers .  But i have to agree the airflow pattern is very hard to grasp .
> 
> The only logical airflow pattern i can come up with would be this one :
> 
> ...


Then that would be the first card in a long time to suck air in, rather than vent it out the back.
Your logic does seem pretty sound though, considering that it might help cool those mid-board heatsinks.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2020)

cellar door said:


> It looks like a push-pull tunnel. With enough static presure, this design could be very efficient.



also @btarunr 

if this is indeed the design, what case and fan airflow setup would be optimal? i feel like this kind of design would benefit from a side panel case fan exhaust.


----------



## dicktracy (Jun 6, 2020)

The design is fake. Why? Because why would they suddenly ditch the superior axial fans for these awful ones.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

dicktracy said:


> The design is fake. Why? Because why would they suddenly ditch the superior axial fans for these awful ones.


maybe it's just not final


----------



## Joss (Jun 6, 2020)

RH92 said:


> The only logical airflow pattern i can come up with would be this one :





TheLostSwede said:


> Then that would be the first card in a long time to suck air in


Yes, it makes sense; but the fan is the wrong type, it should be radial.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 6, 2020)

who makes their coolers anyway ?


----------



## theGryphon (Jun 6, 2020)

RH92 said:


> One explanation might be they want to isolate the airflow between the  two supposed  vapor chambers .  But i have to agree the airflow pattern is very hard to grasp .
> 
> The only logical airflow pattern i can come up with would be this one :
> 
> ...




Everything on that airflow pattern is right except for the implication of intake from the back. It will not and cannot intake from the back. It will intake from the axial fan blades and exhaust in all directions shown, as well as towards the back.

The front airflow pattern seems legit. That fan will simply blow through the fins, as in a radiator.

There is absolutely no push-pull config here, as there is no such airpath...

Overall, I think the design is very functional-oriented and to me, it looks great. Fans on either side will probably help with airflow obstruction in some cases, and it may help with case/DIMM cooling. In some other cases (mostly smaller ones) however, the case airflow will get messed up.

I wish, for the sake of compatibility, they flipped that top fan to reverse the airflow direction, so that the card acts like all cards now do: intake only from under the card...


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Jun 6, 2020)

Interesting concept, though I can’t really make logical sense of it. The best I can see is the bottom fan moves the air back and to the sides, and the top fan will pull air up. The whole idea would be to help move the hot air up and above the card, where there is usually more air flow from case fans. The down side though, would be dumping this heat right in front of the CPU. Also, it almost looks like no air will get pushed out the back plate.


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

theGryphon said:


> Everything on that airflow pattern is right except for the implication of intake from the back. It will not and cannot intake from the back. It will intake from the axial fan blades and exhaust in all directions shown, as well as towards the back.
> 
> The front airflow pattern seems legit. That fan will simply blow through the fins, as in a radiator.
> 
> ...



It's no different from current to fan axial coolers, so there is no shared flow between the fans. fans are just are on opposite sides of the massive heatsink. What I think they're trying to accomplish is create a scavenging effect is the exhaust of the fan aimed top-down will pull the exhaust of the fan towards the front of the card. This wouldn't be possible with the fans on the same side because the would be able to get in some overlap.


----------



## medi01 (Jun 6, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> now that AMD has officially said Big Navi will arrive in September,


Could you poke me with a link please.


----------



## RH92 (Jun 6, 2020)

theGryphon said:


> Everything on that airflow pattern is right except for the implication of intake from the back. It will not and cannot intake from the back. It will intake from the axial fan blades and exhaust in all directions shown, as well as towards the back.



This is the so called  '' back '' ( read back-plate face on conventional coolers ) of the card :





So the card definitely can/will intake from the back . Both fans present on the 2 different faces are intake fans  !


----------



## wheresmycar (Jun 6, 2020)

Looks like a toy. I guess an black variant will suffice.

Where i'm a little confused... with the 2 fans set on opposite sides doesn't that mean the pcb is downsized by roughly 50%? Is that even possible?


----------



## QUANTUMPHYSICS (Jun 6, 2020)

My computer doesn't have glass sides so as long as it is fast as hell, I honestly don't give a damn what kind of shroud my 3080Ti has.


----------



## RH92 (Jun 6, 2020)

dicktracy said:


> The design is fake. Why? Because why would they suddenly ditch the superior axial fans for these awful ones.



Except for the part where both fans used on this prototype are axial ...............  Don't get confused :

Axial                                           /                                                                                                                       Radial


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 6, 2020)

cueman said:


> erhh, when ampere are tested no1 took big navi, or any amd gpus,rtx 3060 is enough and when and if radeon viii aka big navi coming, and if it coming, same thing ,belive it...or not.
> 
> fact are, amd use still 7nm process tech without any new arch or updates and top on that hill is ,still 7nm radeon vii gpu, rx 5700 xt little brother is same gpu core with less tmus and rops but clocks maxed what is possible when hardware gadgets taken off.
> 
> ...



Anyone who knows Sumerian here ?



cellar door said:


> It looks like a push-pull tunnel. With enough static presure, this design could be very efficient.



Except both fans look like they are pushing air into the heatsink, the problem with such a design is that the heatsink wouldn't have enough surface area and the fans would have to run at pretty absurd speeds, >2000 rpm. It would be the least efficient design that I can think of.



Vayra86 said:


> Like a double radial blower, kind of idea.



It just doesn't work though. With radial fans the air has to be directed, so if you want both fans to blow in the same direction that means one of them would be blocked by whatever directs the air for the other one. In this case it would be just as bad, some of the air would go out the back of the card, except it goes through almost no fins so it cools down nothing and the other one would do the same. The heatsink itself would just get airflow from both sides and little place for the air to escape. No matter how you spin (pun intended) none of this makes sense.

Also in case no one noticed there is almost no place for the die to be on board. You can't have the fan directly over the die as that would limit the area of the coldplate and heatpipes too much.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Anyone who knows Sumerian here ?


My thought exactly. I think we need some sort of cryptolinguist in here to decipher that.





Vya Domus said:


> Except both fans look like they are pushing air into the heatsink, the problem with such a design is that the heatsink wouldn't have enough surface area and the fans would have to run at pretty absurd speeds, >2000 rpm. It would be the least efficient design that I can think of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a very good overview. Lots of issues here, definitely. Guess the fan closest to the I/O could be directly on top of a vapor chamber and some really small fins, but the area of those would be quite tiny even if including the middle section of the card - where of course air would just dissipate out the path of least resistance out that same side of the card, close to the fan and get recirculated. The tiny amount exhausted out the back would as such perhaps make more of a difference as it's exhausting already heated air despite passing over just a tiny fin array, but... Yeah, that's not a good plan. And if the die is cooled with a vapor chamber there is no way of connecting that to the fins on the other end of the card due to the fan being on that side... unless they're using one of those kinda dumb "3D vapor chambers" or stupidly putting heat pipes onto a vapor chamber... This is weird.


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Except both fans look like they are pushing air into the heatsink, the problem with such a design is that the heatsink wouldn't have enough surface area and the fans would have to run at pretty absurd speeds, >2000 rpm. It would be the least efficient design that I can think of.



They worked out that problem the heatsink fin arrangement is creating a tesla valve.


----------



## Xzibit (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Anyone who knows Sumerian here ?



Where is Wonder Woman when we need her. She made quick work of Dr. Maru's book.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 6, 2020)

Totally said:


> They worked out that problem the heatsink fin arrangement is creating a tesla valve.



I don't see how anything is worked out, even if the heatsink is meant to receive air from one direction what does the other fan do ?


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> I don't see how anything is worked out, even if the heatsink is meant to receive air from one direction what does the other fan do ?


see the masterpiece I sketched out in paint?


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 6, 2020)

Totally said:


> see the masterpiece I sketched out in paint?



It would have been brilliant if not for the fact that the other fan is also an *intake*.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 6, 2020)

Ugly as sin itself.



Dazzm8 said:


> Didn't the R9 Fury X become really small due to it's use of HBM?



Hbm was one of the reasons it was small.


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> It would have been brilliant if not for the fact that the other fan is also an *intake*.


That's how they're drawn, the lines have arrows on them, flow of front intake is light blue, dark blue for the back intake, the red is a heatpipe


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 6, 2020)

Totally said:


> That's how they're drawn, the lines have arrows on them, flow of front intake is light blue, dark blue for the back intake, the red is a heatpipe



Look at the fin stack, how dense it is even a radiator is usually less dense than that , how much air do you think will go trough there ? Plus it looks like it's actually closed off, otherwise you could see the fan through it (which should be very close).

Most air coolers on GPUs are design such that the air goes through the fins around the fans not under them, because you can't fit many fins in there and there is also a dead spot under the fan.


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Look at the fin stack, how dense it is even a radiator is usually less dense than that , how much air do you think will go trough there ? Plus it looks like it's actually closed off, otherwise you could see the fan through it (which should be very close).
> 
> Most air coolers on GPUs are design such that the air goes through the fins around the fans not under them, because you can't fit many fins in there and there is also a dead spot under the fan.



Second  First picture if you look through the gap in the fan blades you can see another layer of fins that run length wise and not arrange in chevrons like the layer on top so the fans are shallow. Hence why the fans can't been seen through the other side and provides a path for air but that's from what I can see so I could be wrong.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 6, 2020)

Totally said:


> Second  First picture if you look through the gap in the fan blades you can see another layer of fins that run length wise and not arrange in chevrons like the layer on top so the fans are shallow. Hence why the fans can't been seen through the other side and provides a path for air but that's from what I can see so I could be wrong.



See, if the fans are shallow they wont move a lot of air and the fins are very dense as I said, end result almost no real air flow. Again no matter how you spin it this is bad.


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> See, if the fans are shallow they wont move a lot of air and the fins are very dense as I said, end result almost no real air flow. Again no matter how you spin it this is bad.



We're blind. The fan on the back-plate side has the blades reversed. Either way I was thinking that the purpose of the second fan was to create a pressure pocket the sucks air out of the fins. updated pic


----------



## Caring1 (Jun 6, 2020)

Totally said:


> We're blind. The fan on the back-plate side has the blades reversed. Either way I was thinking that the purpose of the second fan was to create a pressure pocket the sucks air out of the fins


But it still pushes air down through the fins.


----------



## Totally (Jun 6, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> But it still pushes air down through the fins.



Then I don't know, we'll have to just wait and see.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 7, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269356041885626373


----------



## Scrizz (Jun 7, 2020)

Hopefully this lets people understand.

*Blue*: Intake
*Red*: Exhaust


----------



## Xzibit (Jun 7, 2020)

Wouldn't that cause havoc for air flow inside the case


----------



## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 7, 2020)

Weird card design.. can't wait to see the tests, especially about the cooling design.


----------



## theGryphon (Jun 7, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Wouldn't that cause havoc for air flow inside the case



That's what I said above too... it would.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Scrizz said:


> Hopefully this lets people understand.
> 
> *Blue*: Intake
> *Red*: Exhaust



Here's another flaw, those kinds of fans will blow the air directly perpendicular onto the surface below, so that means little to no air reaches the middle of the heatsink.


----------



## Xzibit (Jun 7, 2020)

The rear backplate fan will be fighting with the CPU fan for fresh air if you don't have an open top case. Plus the I/O fan will feed hot air from the backplate fan due to case intake fans. Mounting the AIO in front of the case intake effect. 

Its an interesting take


----------



## Applewarlord (Jun 7, 2020)

ARF said:


> It's very possible that this front/rear fans setup is more efficient than the classic one-sided fans setup, hence they'd like to implement it for the first time.
> If it's worse, why bother at all ?


Very likely, considering the new open-air fin-stack design provides more surface area for heat exchange and easier future maintenance. I love it alrdy. 
Altho they could've gotten the idea of extending the heat-sink/fan-shroud over the PCB from someone else, say, Sapphire 5700xt Nitro+, Nvidia sure took it up a notch. 
Another interesting thing is that the two white stripes we can see faintly from the rear of the card under the semi-seethrough plastic back. 



My first guess is they are heat-interface materials usually stick on VRMs but what are they doing on the back of the board? There's no metal backplate to assist on spreading heat. Maybe it's just a habbit. Don't know they are doing it


----------



## Caring1 (Jun 7, 2020)

People will have to rethink case fans on the bottom of the case blowing air up towards the GPU.


----------



## Applewarlord (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Also in case no one noticed there is almost no place for the die to be on board. You can't have the fan directly over the die as that would limit the area of the coldplate and heatpipes too much.


IMO the fan on the front side of the card is NOT over the GPU but over VRM instead. It's a non-conventional board design. Notice in the rear-view picture there are two faint white stripes under the plastic see-through back plate? They could be thermal-interface materials which in recent years make contact with a metalic back plate. Truely I have no idea what they are doing here but it could be a human error. Someone just slapped it on by habbit.


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 7, 2020)

I'd say that it's a mockup or a prototype if it's not a fake. Well, there's been interesting designs so I can't see why something like this couldn't exist.


----------



## LemmingOverlord (Jun 7, 2020)

Almost as corny as Intel's Xe renders.

So Nvidia concludes that instead of a blower reference design, it's going for a sucker reference design????? Ironic.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 7, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> The aesthetic is a real departure for Nvidia. I'm not sure it's  hmm, manly enough for a top end card as strange as that may sound. Maybe it'll grow on us?



Shrouded in mystery, that.  But manly enough? We have waifu cards now, it will work out just fine. Manly is a Korean esports team looking badass in 2020


----------



## reflex75 (Jun 7, 2020)

This design will create hot air loop.


----------



## efikkan (Jun 7, 2020)

Frankly, I wouldn't care if the card were My Little Pony themed. It's going into a box, I care about performance, noise, airflow, temperature and price of course.

For those who do care about looks, rest assured there will be plenty of AiB variants.

I only wish at least one of the could go for more of a "tower cooler" design. I wouldn't mind the cooler being 6 slots as long as it pulled the air out in a silent fashion, and a such design would make much more sense in a typical computer case.


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> Seems like the front exhaust will feed the rear fan with hot air. If the fans were on the same side then I guess the heat from the front exhaust would go directly to the CPU area..
> View attachment 158066


I changed my mind. *As someone pointed out, this cooler has probably a vapor chamber. If so, how can it possibly exhaust air in the underside of the card? (see pic in quote)* Unlike heatpipe heatsinks, vapor chamber heatsinks doesn't let air straight through. Like someone else said, we can't see anything between those fins on the underside anyway, which is highly unlikely if that indeed was an exhaust. Maybe it's just fins on the underside of the vapor chamber, which makes this part (front, underside in case) passively cooled. (Yeah it can be a combination of VC and heatpipes, but still, we can't see anything in there anyway.)
Here's the vapor chamber of the 2080 TI FE. Pretty much no air, or light, comes through.


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Jun 7, 2020)

The design seems far too elaborate and refined to be what I would consider "fake".  Knowing Nvidia, they've been trying to produce more out-of-the-box designs and move away from the standard multi-fan design.  I mean hey, a radical change is a great way to justify those radical MSRPs.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> I changed my mind. *As someone pointed out, this cooler has probably a vapor chamber. If so, how can it possibly exhaust air in the underside of the card? (see pic in quote)* Unlike heatpipe heatsinks, vapor chamber heatsinks doesn't let air straight through. Like someone else said, we can't see anything between those fins on the underside anyway, which is highly unlikely if that indeed was an exhaust. Maybe it's just fins on the underside of the vapor chamber, which makes this part (front, underside in case) passively cooled. (Yeah it can be a combination of VC and heatpipes, but still, we can't see anything in there anyway.)
> Here's the vapor chamber of the 2080 TI FE. Pretty much no air, or light, comes through.
> View attachment 158149



No open air cooler is designed such that air comes through.


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> No open air cooler is designed such that air comes through.


My post isn't based on what you've seen, or haven't seen, I'm talking about what everyone else is talking about in this thread.
This thread is 99 % speculations, and there are countless posts that suggests so.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> My post isn't based on what you've seen, or haven't seen, I'm talking about what everyone else is talking about in this thread.
> This thread is 99 % speculations, and there are countless posts that suggests so.



It doesn't matter, open air coolers are simply designed to dissipate the heat through the sides of the heatsink not directly through it, that's not a speculation it's fact.


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> It doesn't matter, open air coolers are simply designed to dissipate the heat through the sides of the heatsink not directly through it, that's not a speculation it's fact.


That doesn't stop anyone from doing different. I have no idea what you're trying to prove here. It's not like such design defies physical laws.


----------



## Decryptor009 (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> It doesn't matter, open air coolers are simply designed to dissipate the heat through the sides of the heatsink not directly through it, that's not a speculation it's fact.


Anyone with 2 brain cells could tell you that air cannot move through solid metal, but upon contact it cools it depending on temperature of the air.

The flow of air once it hits though depends on which direction the gaps dictate.

Saying they are designed that way is not correct, it is physically impossible for air to dissipate any other way with such a design.


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Or maybe we're talking about two different things.


----------



## yeeeeman (Jun 7, 2020)

ARF said:


> It's very weird why AMD did what they did with Navi 1st generation.
> Why no Big Navi and why not competing with Vega 64/ Vega 64 derivatives in the below Big Navi segments.
> 
> They had a 256 mm2 HD 4870 but back then they had a card with 70-80% higher performance.
> ...


I can tell you why by talking to some engineers involve in its making.
rdna 1 is a new uArch with lots of changes and because the teams are small and the task is huge (nvidia is much larger than AMD), budget/timing constraints mean that navi 10 had a lot of hardware bugs that meant it is not efficient and required a lot of software tweaking (read drivers) to even make it work. You can see all these traits in the 5700xt. It eats a lot of power for a small-ish chip on 7nm, that even turing on 12nm is better. As regarding the drivers and the bugs...people are still complaining about crashes, so yeah. They were forced to sell it at a low price and create lots of subproducts from it in order to sell as many dies as possible, unfortunately for cheap. The strategy worked partially but many users got frustrated with bad drivers (in essence the drivers are OK, but you can do so much to hide hardware bugs) so they switched to nvidia. Anyway, this meant they couldn't launch a big die gpu based on rdna1 within reasonable power consumption/budget and thermal, so the focus was shifted on rdna 2 which is an improvement in many regards to rdna 1 but especially it has bug fixes for all the power/functionality related stuff.
So short answer to your question is that AMD cannot really make a great chip with new uArch from first try. If they would have succeeded to make rdna 1 what rdna 2 will be, then nvidia would have had a hard time competing with 2000 series. The 2080 ti would sell with 400-500$.


----------



## Nero1024 (Jun 7, 2020)

Disappointing design if it will actually end up being the real thing. Maybe one of the prototypes?


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> Anyone with 2 brain cells could tell you that air cannot move through solid metal, but upon contact it cools it depending on temperature of the air.
> 
> The flow of air once it hits though depends on which direction the gaps dictate.
> 
> Saying they are designed that way is not correct, it is physically impossible for air to dissipate any other way with such a design.



Anyone with 2 brain cells probably figured out what I said, what solid metal, what are you talking about ? The air is exhausted through the sides of the heatsinks *because the PCB is in the way,* so yes it's designed that way. For part of this design the air supposedly is meant to go directly perpendicularly through the heatsink, except that, like I pointed out, the that area looks closed off.



Mats said:


> It's not like such design defies physical laws.



It doesn't, it's just severely inefficient.


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Anyone with 2 brain cells probably figured out what I said, what solid metal, what are you talking about ? The air is exhausted through the sides of the heatsinks *because the PCB is in the way,* so yes it's designed that way. For part of this design the air supposedly is meant to go directly perpendicularly through the heatsink, except that, like I pointed out, the that area looks closed off.


There is no PCB in the way in the front of the card IMO, it ends where the arrow shaped shroud begins. Picture link here.

*Remember, the fan is on the rear side = PCB side, so there's no room for both a PCB AND a fan at the same spot. *(Unless there are two PCB's, not very likely.)




The whole reasoning came from the idea that it would work like this. (Old GTX 960 as an example)

Air going straight through, just like I and at least two others tried to explain with excellent Paint skills. *Then* I realized that there's probably a vapor chamber in the way, so it's not possible.
This isn't about me being right or wrong, just a chain of thoughts.

Do you feel up to date now?


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> There is no PCB in the way in the front of the card IMO, it ends where the arrow shaped shroud begins



I feel like giving up but I'll try one more time. *Usually in open air coolers the PCB is in the way, like in that 2080ti example you gave which I was clearly referencing.*


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> *Usually in open air coolers the PCB is in the way, like in that 2080ti example you gave which I was clearly referencing.*


Yup, you're right there. I did some editing.. This time the fan is on the back, so it can't be any PCB there.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> Yup, you're right there. I did some editing.. This time the fan is on the back, so it can't be any PCB there.


There are two fans, one on each side. The front/bottom fan, just like any traditional open air cooler, blows straight into the PCB (and thus whatever is on top of it, whether heatpipes or vapor chamber, with the air then turning 90° and going partially out the slot covers and partially back into the case through the exposed fins on the front. The back fan sits on the same plane as the pcb and base of the cooler, so its fins can't be connected to that vapor chamber - vapor chambers are flat, after all. Which is why I brought up the possibility of heatpipes connected to the vapor chamber earlier, though that is a terribly inelegant solution. Either that, the whole thing uses heatpipes (a regression from earlier designs) or the entire other half of the cooler cools only the VRM (which would be beyond stupid given that the GPU+VRAM likely outputs 200-225W of heat and the VRM 25-50. 

Either way, this design seems problematic.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

It's also very unnatural to have the hot air going both up and down, the heat naturally rises up.



Valantar said:


> VRM 25-50.



That's way too much for some VRMs, they usually top out at about 15-20W for that kind of current.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 7, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Either way, this design seems problematic.


For what, exactly? If this is true/the design...IF... i'd imagine this was tested. I doubt it will be a "problem" though (surely it will work as designed and keep the gpu running where nvidia wants it to).


----------



## Valantar (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> It's also very unnatural to have the hot air going both up and down, the heat naturally rises up.
> 
> 
> 
> That's way too much for some VRMs, they usually top out at about 15-20W for that kind of current.


That's true, I was trying to be generous and add in some headroom for overclocking  

As for convection, even the weakest fan can beat that easily, so the absolute direction of airflow only really matters if you're designing specifically to utilize convection in the first place. If you have a front intake and rear exhaust on your case, convection inside of the case is near meaningless.


EarthDog said:


> For what, exactly? If this is true/the design...IF... i'd imagine this was tested. I doubt it will be a "problem" though (surely it will work as designed and keep the gpu running where nvidia wants it to).


Problematic in terms of maximising cooling potential per volume while maintaining compatibility. I obviously also assume this has been tested extensively if it is real at all, but nonetheless it stands out as an example of engineering for the sake of engineering (and partially for the sake of looking like engineering, of course) rather than aiming to make as optimal a design as possible. Design simplicity is not a quality Nvidia tends to favor though, what with the near infinite number of screws on their founders edition coolers, so I wouldn't put it past them to say "screw it, let's ignore complexity altogether and just make something we think is cool".


----------



## Mats (Jun 7, 2020)

Either way, the PCB looks crazy short for a high end card.


----------



## RH92 (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> I changed my mind. *As someone pointed out, this cooler has probably a vapor chamber. If so, how can it possibly exhaust air in the underside of the card? (see pic in quote)* Unlike heatpipe heatsinks, vapor chamber heatsinks doesn't let air straight through. Like someone else said, we can't see anything between those fins on the underside anyway, which is highly unlikely if that indeed was an exhaust. Maybe it's just fins on the underside of the vapor chamber, which makes this part (front, underside in case) passively cooled. (Yeah it can be a combination of VC and heatpipes, but still, we can't see anything in there anyway.)
> Here's the vapor chamber of the 2080 TI FE. Pretty much no air, or light, comes through.
> View attachment 158149



Yep i came to the same conclusion . I was the person who suggested the vapor chamber but i agree that on the '' VRM '' section if there is a vapor chamber there is no way for air to exhaust downwards . 

Maybe as you said it's a mixed cooling solution , vapor chamber for core/memory and heat pipes ( which will allow the fan to blow downwards ) for the VRM .


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 7, 2020)

RH92 said:


> Maybe as you said it's a mixed cooling solution , vapor chamber for core/memory and heat pipes ( which will allow the fan to blow downwards ) for the VRM .


that'd seem reasonable.
who puts a vapor chamber on vrm ?


----------



## alchemist83 (Jun 7, 2020)

birdie said:


> This looks fake as hell and also the card is far too early - rumors have it pinned at Q4 2020 which is at the very least three months away. OEMs mustn't even have the chips at this point.
> 
> *Edit*: some interesting analysis hinting that the card/leak could be very much real:


Well make your mind up>? Real or fake? Cos looks real on first view. But you in the first case, so adamant its a fake. Explain more why GURU. Or dont. Sounds better to me actually. Flip flop. Back bone made of jelly.


----------



## RH92 (Jun 7, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> that'd seem reasonable.
> who puts a vapor chamber on vrm ?





			https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-founders-edition/images/cooler2.jpg
		


I mean on the classic FE cooler VRM is cooled by the vapor chamber ( indirectly ) but yeah an entire  vapor chamber dedicated to VRM seems a bit excessive  especially considering those GPUs are expected to have massively improved power efficiency .


----------



## Sunny and 75 (Jun 7, 2020)

This looks so cool!
GJ NVIDIA!

New renders:








						NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 gets a better look in unofficial 3D renders - VideoCardz.com
					

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 poses in 3D Upcoming RTX 3080 graphics card will feature a unique dual-fan design and irregularly-shaped PCB. This is a completely new approach to the reference design by NVIDIA. It remains unclear what will happen to the custom models. Will NVIDIA let board partners...




					videocardz.com


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 7, 2020)

Adc7dTPU said:


> This looks so cool!
> GJ NVIDIA!
> 
> New renders:
> ...


nice


----------



## RH92 (Jun 7, 2020)

Honestly the more i look at this design the more it grows on me .  It combines maximum heat sink area with minimum useless plastic shroud all this with 0 compromise to aesthetics  !


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 7, 2020)

Makes sense to me in almost every way, apart from the fact that I think the front fan should be a radial/blower outward blowing fan and not an axial down-blowing fan.

The front fan obviously exhausts out via the angled slots in the centre section. I'll assume this section is covered in a vapor chamber and with closed sides around the fan as well, the choice of an axial fan instead of a radial fan is an odd one - probably chosen for looks rather than functionaliy.

The rear fan obviously exhausts through the front of the card - you can just about see the heatpipes in the photo of the rear of the card.

Personally, I think the PCIe power cables will go along the top edge, right by the slot cover. I don't see them dumping PCIe power connectors on the end of the card like they did with the RTX 20x0FE because that was a mess even with a simple single-sided cooler and regular rectangular PCB.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Adc7dTPU said:


> This looks so cool!
> GJ NVIDIA!
> 
> New renders:
> ...





> 3D artists have taken their time to show the RTX 3080 graphics card at different angles, as the original photographs were simply no match to give us a proper look at the design



I like how they made it such that the fan can be seen through the fins even though in the pictures that isn't the case at all .


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 7, 2020)

looks like this is gonna be fun to clean


----------



## dyonoctis (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> I like how they made it such that the fan can be seen through the fins even though in the pictures that isn't the case at all .


You could argue that since the fan is black, the fins are dark, the surface where the gpu was put down is black and the low quality of the photos, as well, there's no much way for the light reflecting on those dark surface to come through.


----------



## mechtech (Jun 7, 2020)

Hmmm

After exchange rate to Cnd$ and 13% tax, I  think I'd rather have a whole set of new appliances instead.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 7, 2020)

mechtech said:


> Hmmm
> 
> After exchange rate to Cnd$ and 13% tax, I  think I'd rather have a whole set of new appliances instead.


I feel you.
was thinking about cpu upgrade.3600/10400f + mobo + ddr4
for what it would cost me I got a new case (with extra fans),new heaphones with a dac and a new printer.

ampere/rdna2 is a must buy tho.I bought a card every gen cause I just like new stuff.started with 7870-290-980-980ti-1080-1080Ti-2070S.


----------



## Turmania (Jun 7, 2020)

I would not be surprised if AMD, copies this design on their next gen RDNA3 once again...


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 7, 2020)

Turmania said:


> I would not be surprised if AMD, copies this design on their next gen RDNA3 once again...


if it's not patented and locked by nvidia then they're free to do so.


----------



## chodaboy19 (Jun 7, 2020)

I really want to see this designed released! It's certainly piqued everyone's curiosity.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 7, 2020)

Valantar said:


> That's true, I was trying to be generous and add in some headroom for overclocking
> 
> As for convection, even the weakest fan can beat that easily, so the absolute direction of airflow only really matters if you're designing specifically to utilize convection in the first place. If you have a front intake and rear exhaust on your case, convection inside of the case is near meaningless.
> 
> Problematic in terms of maximising cooling potential per volume while maintaining compatibility. I obviously also assume this has been tested extensively if it is real at all, but nonetheless it stands out as an example of engineering for the sake of engineering (and partially for the sake of looking like engineering, of course) rather than aiming to make as optimal a design as possible. Design simplicity is not a quality Nvidia tends to favor though, what with the near infinite number of screws on their founders edition coolers, so I wouldn't put it past them to say "screw it, let's ignore complexity altogether and just make something we think is cool".


If only we knew the results.... if this was real.


----------



## ARF (Jun 7, 2020)

Turmania said:


> I would not be surprised if AMD, copies this design on their next gen RDNA3 once again...




I don't know who copies from whom.

Intel:

















						Intel Teases Conceptual 2035 Xe Graphics Cards
					

As part of Computex 2019, Intel has demonstrated some interesting conceptual renders as on how graphics cards could look in the year 2035.




					www.technewstoday.com
				




nVidia:


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 7, 2020)

If that is indeed the reference design expect these cards to be expensive.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Anyone who knows Sumerian here ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, conclusion, in your eyes? I mean, yes, I get your response to me and others, but you offer no alternative plausible idea for it 

I won't say this is the best design mankind has ever dreamt up... but its a design and apparently it somehow makes sense.



ARF said:


> I don't know who copies from whom.
> 
> Intel:
> 
> ...



Tiny, teenieweenie difference, this is an actual sample, and those renders are... renders. So Nvidia beat them at their own game even if they somehow copied something  Says alot about the state of Xe more than anything. I think Nv has proven it can bring new designs to cooling. Their NVTTM coolers have always been 'oh, that actually looks pretty good' moments. Not that they cool like that, but that's another story 

In terms of design style I'm getting a strong Knight Rider / Tron vibe from this, both in their own way.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 7, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> So, conclusion, in your eyes? I mean, yes, I get your response to me and others, but you offer no alternative plausible idea for it
> 
> I won't say this is the best design mankind has ever dreamt up... but its a design and apparently it somehow makes sense.


 There is a ton of aluminum on this card. I have not seen more on a card before.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jun 7, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> So, conclusion, in your eyes? I mean, yes, I get your response to me and others, but you offer no alternative plausible idea for it



Alternative in what ? I just said it's a poor design.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 7, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> There is a ton of aluminum on this card. I have not seen more on a card before.



Hehe yeah... that does tend to turn into metallic painted plastic at some point down the line, is my experience 



Vya Domus said:


> Alternative in what ? I just said it's a poor design.


Fair enough


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 7, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> If that is indeed the reference design expect these cards to be expensive.


Nvidia's 2000-series RTX coolers were not particularly good, despite being very expensive to build, and the same overbuilt, poorly-designed FE cooler was on the 2060FE which was the cheapest 2060 on the market for the first few months after launch.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 7, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Nvidia's 2000-series RTX coolers were not particularly good, despite being very expensive to build, and the same overbuilt, poorly-designed FE cooler was on the 2060FE which was the cheapest 2060 on the market for the first few months after launch.


 No one could ever accuse Nvidia of being value for money.


----------



## M2B (Jun 7, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Nvidia's 2000-series RTX coolers were not particularly good, despite being very expensive to build, and the same overbuilt, poorly-designed FE cooler was on the 2060FE which was the cheapest 2060 on the market for the first few months after launch.



That "poorly designed" cooler kept the 250W RTX 2080S cool and quiet though, didn't it?
And the 2060FE was actually as good as AIB cards.
All this while being a 2-slot card and looking so much better than anything else on the market.


----------



## ZoneDymo (Jun 7, 2020)

Turmania said:


> I would not be surprised if AMD, copies this design on their next gen RDNA3 once again...



Id rather AMD do more AIO stuff like with the Fury X.


----------



## Scrizz (Jun 7, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Alternative in what ? I just said it's a poor design.


It's too early to say it's a poor design.


----------



## Caring1 (Jun 7, 2020)

Mats said:


> I changed my mind. *As someone pointed out, this cooler has probably a vapor chamber. If so, how can it possibly exhaust air in the underside of the card? (see pic in quote)* Unlike heatpipe heatsinks, vapor chamber heatsinks doesn't let air straight through. Like someone else said, we can't see anything between those fins on the underside anyway, which is highly unlikely if that indeed was an exhaust. Maybe it's just fins on the underside of the vapor chamber, which makes this part (front, underside in case) passively cooled. (Yeah it can be a combination of VC and heatpipes, but still, we can't see anything in there anyway.)
> Here's the vapor chamber of the 2080 TI FE. Pretty much no air, or light, comes through.
> View attachment 158149


Totally irrelevant as the PCB design is not the same.
Sorry you can't wrap your mind around this concept.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 7, 2020)

Scrizz said:


> It's too early to say it's a poor design.


Isn't it amazing how many desktop engineers are calling this problematic/poor design just from a picture? Again, if this is real, you have to believe it was tested and works from flagship down.

Nvidia's reference cooler on turing was actually pretty good. Better, by far, then their own blower reference cards and AMD's. I have faith this will do the job...will have some headroom for overclocking...


----------



## Turmania (Jun 8, 2020)

I can see the two fans wont fight over for the same air which is a big plus on its own. But in the end, reviews will determine how effective it is and how is the pcb sorted.


----------



## 1d10t (Jun 8, 2020)

Rather bland design but unique nonetheless


----------



## medi01 (Jun 8, 2020)

Turmania said:


> if AMD, copies this design on their next gen RDNA3 once again...


Once again?


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## Valantar (Jun 8, 2020)

Turmania said:


> I would not be surprised if AMD, copies this design on their next gen RDNA3 once again...


Wait, have AMD copied an Nvidia reference design? When?


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## Vayra86 (Jun 8, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> looks like this is gonna be fun to clean



Nothing is too crazy since the Model O mouse got copied into oblivion. Cleaning is an experience in 2020, make no mistake. There is apparently a market


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 8, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Nothing is too crazy since the Model O mouse got copied into oblivion. Cleaning is an experience in 2020, make no mistake. There is apparently a market


there's hardly any dust in my case anyway since I got the p600s


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## Valantar (Jun 8, 2020)

Got this pic off the sff.network forums where someone attributed it to "Someone on Techpowerup", sorry that I don't know who (can't find it in this thread, though I might be going blind). Anyhow, the originally sketched flow path (green and red lines) is problematic, so I added my own to illustrate. Even if the lack of a shroud makes for a thicker than usual fin stack, that fin area is _tiny_ compared to most open-air coolers. Also, the lack of  a shroud means nothing directing flow, meaning the air passing through those two \ / fin stacks in the middle of the card will be negligible - the majority of it will take the path of least resistance and get out of the fin stack ASAP (blue lines) rather than following the fins all the way out. As such the red arrows there are highly unrealistic. Also, a relatively large part of those middle fin stacks will receive pretty much no air at all (orange fields) - their _only_ access to air from the fans would be a tiny channel in the middle, underneath the silver bar. Overall, for this to be even remotely effective there needs to be heat pipes running from that part of the cooler and into the other. If that is indeed the case, this could be good, though it would lead to a lot of recirculation unless there are other fans around to ensure a steady supply of fresh air. 


http://imgur.com/a/mPyUtOg


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## Mats (Jun 8, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> Totally irrelevant as the PCB design is not the same.


Vapor chambers work the same, they don't let air pass straight through like heatpipe heatsinks, no matter the PCB design.
Sorry you can't wrap your mind around this concept.


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## Vario (Jun 8, 2020)

I think the idea of the rear fan is to assist the cooling of densely stacked SLI cards but I am not sure.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 8, 2020)

Vario said:


> I think the idea of the rear fan is to assist densely stacked SLI cards but I am not sure.


yeah that'd help for sure


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## Sunny and 75 (Jun 8, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> I like how they made it such that the fan can be seen through the fins even though in the pictures that isn't the case at all .


Interesting point of view!


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 8, 2020)

M2B said:


> That "poorly designed" cooler kept the 250W RTX 2080S cool and quiet though, didn't it?
> And the 2060FE was actually as good as AIB cards.
> All this while being a 2-slot card and looking so much better than anything else on the market.


I think you misunderstand me. The FE coolers were adequate and kept the cards quiet enough and cool enough - I had no complaints with mine other than a driver issue (well, decision by Nvidia really) that enforced a minimum fan speed of about 60% of typical full load speed which was far too much and made the card clearly audible at all times. 1200RPM idle is ridiculous for a 160W card that never even reached 2000rpm for me during an OCCT burn test. Other FE cards have an even more ridiculous 1500rpm idle which is borderline obnoxious if you don't have game sounds to cover up the GPU noise.

Watch some teardowns of the FE coolers (gamersnexus were particularly vocal about the FE cooler, though by no means the only ones moaning about them) if you want to see what I mean about poorly-designed. They are clearly very expensive to produce with a lot of manual labour required in addition to the over-complex design. They're sort of 'bodged' together with far too many component parts that show all the hallmarks of a company that is inexperienced in making an open cooler.

Third party cards were usually cooler and quieter, all whilst having cheaper-to-produce, simpler cooler designs on them and using lower-binned, hotter-running silicon. I'm not going to deny that the FE cards were the best-looking on the market though. I think that's one of the reasons I bought one


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## EarthDog (Jun 8, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Third party cards were usually cooler and quieter, all whilst having cheaper-to-produce, simpler cooler designs on them and using lower-binned, hotter-running silicon.


It's like, how it has always been...........AIB cards are cooler and quieter. Shocking  ! I think all people are saying is that they are better and less noisy than the blower style coolers. 

Outside of that, I don't about lower-binned silcon...as far as I could see, most AIB cards overclocked father than the FE....








						ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 Super STRIX OC Review
					

The factory-overclocked ASUS RTX 2080 Super STRIX OC is the company's flagship RTX 2080 Super. It comes with a powerful 10+2 phase VRM and large triple-slot, triple-fan cooling solution. Thanks to the dual-BIOS capability, you are free to pick between excellent temperatures or excellent noise.




					www.techpowerup.com
				











						ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Matrix 11 GB Review
					

The ASUS RTX 2080 Ti Matrix is the world's first graphics card with fully integrated watercooling. ASUS has managed the seemingly impossible and crammed waterblock, pump, and radiator into a triple-slot graphics card. The Matrix is also highly overclocked, making it the fastest RTX 2080 Ti we...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




The first two I looked at ^^. Clearly not all are that way, but this small sample shows card partner cards close or higher than the FEs.


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## Vario (Jun 8, 2020)

This cools really well but I don't think we'd ever see any manufacturer sell a card looking like this


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 9, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> I don't about lower-binned silcon...as far as I could see, most AIB cards overclocked father than the FE....


Binning on Nvidia cards is really easy to see, the die is actually stamped with the bin. Take a 2070 for example.

TU-106-400A-A1 is the FE, top bin. It was sold to some vendors at a premium for their top-tier factory overclocks, too.
TU-106-400-A1 is the standard 2070, that most 3rd party boards near the MSRP used.

The reason the FE didn't overclock as well was down to Nvidia strictly enforcing their own recommended power limit. The A-die let them get away with smaller, sexier coolers because they were higher-yield, more efficient silicon. 3rd party vendors had two options - buy the cheaper chip and throw the savings at beefier cooling to handle the higher voltages required for the non-A die, or buy the A-dies at a premium, go bonkers on the VRMs and cooling, and sell it as a top-tier card with a hefty overclock.

I believe that yields have improved since Turing's launch and there are now no "A dies" because all of them are considered good enough quality.


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## EarthDog (Jun 9, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Binning on Nvidia cards is really easy to see, the die is actually stamped with the bin. Take a 2070 for example.
> 
> TU-106-400A-A1 is the FE, top bin. It was sold to some vendors at a premium for their top-tier factory overclocks, too.
> TU-106-400-A1 is the standard 2070, that most 3rd party boards near the MSRP used.
> ...


i recall that, yes... but I dont remember it paying off in actual clocks. The differences seemed negligible.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 9, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> i recall that, yes... but I dont remember it paying off in actual clocks. The differences seemed negligible.


Well vendors would do their own binning too. So the A die were likely used for the Kingpin and FTW variants, but EVGA would have bulk-purchased loads of non-A silicon and would likely sub-bin that themselves to put the better silicon in the SSC Ultra and the worse silicon in the stock SC models.

I'm sure all vendors offering a range of factory overclocked models of increasingly aggressive clocks would have sub-binned the non-A dies too, so the fact that some non-A dies went into agressively-clocked cards is no surprise.

The other thing to remember is that binning is normally done by voltage - and one thing us overclockers have learned is that leaky/inefficient/higher-voltage silicon often overclocks better - provided you can cool it. Back when ASIC quality was exposed to GPU-Z, we'd often see the highest-clocking cards with ASIC quality of under 75% whilst the incredible undervolting champions were only found above 85%. So binning for voltage is definitely not the same as binning for clocks.


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## EarthDog (Jun 9, 2020)

Details. 



EarthDog said:


> as far as I could see, most AIB cards overclocked father than the FE....


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 9, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Details.


Well you're making the incorrect assumption that Nvidia is binning for clockspeed; It wasn't. It was binning for efficiency and one thing us overclockers have learned is that leaky/inefficient/higher-voltage silicon often overclocks better - provided you can cool it. 

Back when ASIC quality was exposed to GPU-Z, we'd often see the highest-clocking cards with ASIC quality of under 75% whilst the incredible undervolting champions were only found above 85%. So binning for voltage is definitely not the same as binning for clocks.


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## EarthDog (Jun 9, 2020)

Sorry.. of course there is more to it than clocks! I didn't feel I needed to mention that.


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## Hugis (Jun 10, 2020)

fresh pictures of the heatsink these really do look legit now






Edit : source 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/h07cxn


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## dr emulator (madmax) (Jun 10, 2020)

from the pics i've seen it looks crazy ( in a good way )
buuuut i would prefer a fan grill to stop parts falling in it, obviously that would impede the airflow
just my 2 cents 

bwahaha i was thinking of the other cooler


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## Animalpak (Jun 10, 2020)

Sooo uhmm according to the dimensions of the card, water cooling it will be convenient since the waterblock will be the same dimension of the card...  Less material = cheap ... NICE !


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## RH92 (Jun 10, 2020)

Ok given this leak this is probably whats going on imo :


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 10, 2020)

Aw shucks, that's a stupid-ass design.
Seriously, having the passively-cooled chunk of fins in the middle walled off like that ruins the whole thing. Not only does it remove those fins from active cooling duty, it also completely stifles the front fan.

This is not a high-TDP design - it's 200W max and the aesthetics really are all that Nvidia care about with this because cooling potential is roughtly halved by that single decision to wall off the central fins.

*Dumb AF, avoid!*

At least it confirms where the power connectors are going to go at last - and yes, there will be stupid wires to the PCB like on the 2060FE again (sigh...)


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## Valantar (Jun 10, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Aw shucks, that's a stupid-ass design.
> Seriously, having the passively-cooled chunk of fins in the middle walled off like that ruins the whole thing. Not only does it remove those fins from active cooling duty, it also completely stifles the front fan.
> 
> This is not a high-TDP design - it's 200W max and the aesthetics really are all that Nvidia care about with this because cooling potential is roughtly halved by that single decision to wall off the central fins.
> ...


Are you sure that isn't just a cut-out for the sides of the fan, like around the other fan? No fins on the top or bottom there after all. I'm starting to wonder if the cut-out in the passive fin stack is for an angled 8-pin connector or something.

Other than that, I entirely agree that the walled-off fins are a really dumb move. Seems to be motivated entirely by price, as it lets them use a simple aluminium extrusion for this part of the fin stack, but ... wow, it's so stupid. Wasted potential for sure.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 10, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Are you sure that isn't just a cut-out for the sides of the fan, like around the other fan? No fins on the top or bottom there after all. I'm starting to wonder if the cut-out in the passive fin stack is for an angled 8-pin connector or something.


we're both wrong.
I'm wrong because if you go back to the first set of images, there's no cutout in the shroud there for power connectors. The thing I circled is probably just the fan blade clearance you mentioned.
You're wrong about the cutout in the passive fin stack, it's far too narrow, but you did make me take a closer look and it yielded results:





To me, those look like thick power delivery wires covered in black heatshrink. This is where the wired PCIe connectors meet the PCB I guess, which means the wires probably run under the fan hub and have a cutout on the end of the shroud, which hasn't been photographed yet and is likely the only place left for the PCIe connectors to be hiding.


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## r.h.p (Jun 10, 2020)

Vario said:


> This cools really well but I don't think we'd ever see any manufacturer sell a card looking like this
> View attachment 158286


actually this is what my old vega 64 needs ...


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## Caring1 (Jun 11, 2020)

RH92 said:


> Ok given this leak this is probably whats going on imo :
> 
> View attachment 158451


Those look like injection molded plastic mock ups.


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## BoboOOZ (Jun 11, 2020)

Vario said:


> This cools really well but I don't think we'd ever see any manufacturer sell a card looking like this
> View attachment 158286


They could, they would just have to include a pci riser and a way to adapt the io part.

IMO they should do this, since modern GPU's are way more power-hungry than modern CPUs. Either this, or come with more water-cooled models.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 11, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> Those look like injection molded plastic mock ups.


Looks 100% like machined metal to me.

Everything from the paint scratches showing up as lighter material below, to the minor damage resulting in permanently bent metal where plastic would either spring back or snap off. Injection moulded is extremely unlikely - that requires extremely expensive investment dies to be made, not something that's _ever_ done for prototyping. They'd probably 3D Print stuff for prototyping now, and the stuff we've seen so far is far too smooth to be 3D printed, even on the highest-end printer available.


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## Valantar (Jun 11, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Looks 100% like machined metal to me.
> 
> Everything from the paint scratches showing up as lighter material below, to the minor damage resulting in permanently bent metal where plastic would either spring back or snap off. Injection moulded is extremely unlikely - that requires extremely expensive investment dies to be made, not something that's _ever_ done for prototyping. They'd probably 3D Print stuff for prototyping now, and the stuff we've seen so far is far too smooth to be 3D printed, even on the highest-end printer available.


Machined? That sounds wrong, CNC'ing or otherwise machining a heatsink would be both wildly impractical, slow, and terribly expensive. Both end pieces (where the fans sit) are likely more or less standard stamped-out sheet metal crimped together at various points, with the cold plate and heatpipes pressed into the structure. The angled middle pieces look like bog-standard aluminium extrusions cut from a long bar. Nothing even remotely exotic about this, but it definitely isn't plastic either. Plastic would be shinier, have rounder edges, and the fins would definitely be less straight (those dense fin stacks have really thin fins).


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 11, 2020)

Cold-rolling and stamping out those thin vanes around the fans is 'machining' and slicing the almumium extrusions is machining too. You're thinking CNC machined = machined, but it's just one tiny part of the 'machining' umbrella term. Pretty much if anything is cut down to size, has threads tapped into it, or is cut from a cast or extrusion, it's machined. That's why they're called machine shops, even if there's not a 3-axis CNC column drill in it.

For what it's worth, the alloy extrusions in the passive fins at the middle _are_ actually CNC machined - the extrusions come off as a symmetrical slice and then the recesses like that one we can see for where the power wires to into the board are likely CNC machined out of the extrusion.


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## Valantar (Jun 11, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Cold-rolling and stamping out those thin vanes around the fans is 'machining' and slicing the almumium extrusions is machining too. You're thinking CNC machined = machined, but it's just one tiny part of the 'machining' umbrella term. Pretty much if anything is cut down to size, has threads tapped into it, or is cut from a cast or extrusion, it's machined. That's why they're called machine shops, even if there's not a 3-axis CNC column drill in it.
> 
> For what it's worth, the alloy extrusions in the passive fins at the middle _are_ actually CNC machined - the extrusions come off as a symmetrical slice and then the recesses like that one we can see for where the power wires to into the board are likely CNC machined out of the extrusion.


I wasn't under the impression that 'machining' was commonly used for mostly or fully automated high volume processes like standard heatsink production (which is after all mostly stamping sheet metal and threading that onto hestpipes), but that the term applied more to more manual processes or ones of a lower volume/higher complexity  - definitely not limited to CNC milling, but obviously also including routing, turning, drilling, etc. Though I'm no machinist, so it is of course enitely possible that the colloquial meaning of the word I'm used to is inaccurate.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 11, 2020)

Splitting hairs and going OT at this point but yeah, anything that removes material from an oversized workpiece to bring it down to the final dimensions is classed as machining. The etymology of the word refers to the machinists themselves who worked on machines. When the word was originally coined, machinists used hand-tools exclusively.

Machining today refers to any *subtractive fabrication process*, material is removed rather than modified or assembled. There's no bending, deformation, or stretching of material so I guess the term can be applied to absolutely anything that *cuts* a workpiece down to size.

It's a broad term really but pretty much anything that's milled, cut, drilled, tapped, or turned is machined.


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## Caring1 (Jun 12, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Splitting hairs and going OT at this point but yeah, anything that removes material from an oversized workpiece to bring it down to the final dimensions is classed as machining. The etymology of the word refers to the machinists themselves who worked on machines. When the word was originally coined, machinists used hand-tools exclusively.
> 
> Machining today refers to any *subtractive fabrication process*, material is removed rather than modified or assembled. There's no bending, deformation, or stretching of material so I guess the term can be applied to absolutely anything that *cuts* a workpiece down to size.
> 
> It's a broad term really but pretty much anything that's milled, cut, drilled, tapped, or turned is machined.


Unless done by hand, if you really want to split hairs.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 12, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> Unless done by hand, if you really want to split hairs.


I dunno, something turned on a manual lathe is still machined.


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