# X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.



## trodas (Jan 14, 2007)

In spring 2006 I finally get my hands on X-Fi Fatal1ty card. The reason for upgrade from my Audigy2zs was mostly the *pause bug*, BF2 support (I started play BF2 a lot) and the X-ram thing, that provide 64MB soundbuffer that should dramaticaly reduce PCI load - hence give me some speed-up  Or so I thought. The first nasty surprise when I actually get the card in my hand was this:







Not only the unnecessary long legs, but mainly the capacitors type - Jamicons. Jamicon cap's are bad, they are known to fail - eg. over time lost most of their specs.
At first, everything work great, except some weird noises when BF2 is loading sounds. (maybe the card did not like OGM playback when there is going writing samples to the X-ram? Or my A9R480 Sapphire Grouper mobo is up to blame?) However after like 2 months are the pause bug back.

When I say pause bug, I mean this. Using any player, play a AC3 5.1 movie while using 5.1 speakers on analog connection. Decoding filter has to be AC3 filter and it has to use 24bit output to generate enough data to trigger the failure. Now randomly pause and unpause the playback. Sooner ot later the channels start play from wrong speakers and/or there is terrible noise from all speakers comming after the unpause. This is a pause bug. I had it on Audigy (1), Audigy2zs and after two months on X-Fi as well.

It was obvious that the X-Fi is need to be recapped and the Jamicons changed to good, preferably audio caps - but NOT for all positions. The catch is, that Creative did use one capacitor type for all positions - eg. for the voltage filtering as well, as for the audio output. That is nonsense at best. Audio and computers capacitors don't mix!
So, they simply put Jamicons everywhere. Not something that I would expect from 260$ pricetag (spring 2006, mind you) product :hitwall: 











*Now why I started this thread.*

Well, to begin with, some weeks ago (to 14. 8. 2006) I started to play Mafia - a original Czech game of the 1930 NewYork organized crime. You simply work your way up in the organization at prohibition times, drive old cars, steal, murder and finally seek salvation from the hands of cops... During play it sometimes in these briefing talking scenes is seems to starting to lost some samples. I thought that the Czech programmers engine simply could have some quirks with 64MB of sample buffer on X-Fi Fatal1ty. After all, as the game release there was not such a thing as X-Fi, right? However the more I play and the closer to the end I was, the more often it happening. And it kinda suxx to go on mission and not know the briefing, right? However as I finished the game, the problems are gone, so...

So then I started play Prey  And when shortly in game in one spot appears more sounds at once (your girl scream, mechanic move, buttons, alien...), the whole computer freeze. I remember the Jamicons and quickly pull the X-Fi out and replaced the big Jamicon (originaly a 220uF 16V) with Panny FM 470uF 16V as well, as two 100uF Jamicons with 120uF Panny FM ones.



*The results.*

I finished whole Prey in few days of hard gaming w/o crash or any problem. I went back to Mafia and - whoa, samples aren't lost anymore again. My apology, Czech programmers. I did not trusted in yours skils... :redface:  In adition, the pause bug is - GONE! 

Pause bug - long story:


> *Pause bug*
> Long time ago I decided to upgrade my speakers. It was when Matrix Reloaded was released and I realized my own homemade apm + speakers are simply not enought. They can't handle the extremly low-frequency effects designed for subwoofers to "shake your world and body" combined with the music. The fight scene with many copy's of Agent Smith verzus Neo was shiny example of my speakers inequality - beside every friend visiting me was constantly asking where I bought them, because they play, well... very well :good:
> So, to make some use of my SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 output I choosen a Genius SW-5.1 wooden speakers, because they sound damn good (with some modifications, better opamps, cables and stuff). Now the best AC3 decode was a AC3 filter. It sound damn good, however there also come the price. Every time I pause ANY movie using ANY player (Mplayer, Mplayer Classic, BSplay, SoubtitleWorkshop DS preview play, etc) and then quickly unpause it, it sometimes swap random channels. And believe me, hearing subwoofer efect from mid speaker and speaking of actors thru the subwoofer is not exactly exciting...
> It was also (SB Live! 5.1) not capable of 24 bit output.
> ...




*Later.*

So I added the frontpannel later (moth or so), but in like a week, problems and pausebug are there again. Frontpannel is full of Jamicons too, and it obviously accelerated the dying of Jamicons on card or so. I pulled it out, yet the pause bug is still there. No crashing, luckily.


*I would like to hear from X-Fi and perhaps also Audigy2(zs) users about their experience and possibly about their sound bugs. There is so many people on Creative forum that claim to have similar issues as me, so... I wonder in how many cases this could be avoided just by using good caps and not Jamicon crap...*



To completely recap X-Fi you need:

X-Fi Fata1ity
-------------
Remove and short 16x 22uF 16V Jamicon decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/165/xfiopampscouplingcapsgoan9.jpg

 1x Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V (d8) Big Pope
 2x Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V (d6.3) Big Pope
17x Panny FM 150uF 6.3V (d5) P12917-ND Digi-key
 1x Panny FM 100uF 10V (d5) P12919-ND Digi-key
 2x Panny FM 68uF 16V (d5) P12921-ND Digi-key
 4x Panny FM 47uF 25V (d5) P12923-ND Digi-key
 6x Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit Sonic craft
 2x Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit Sonic craft

(you can ship the Black Gates and only remove the original caps off the card, if you are not plan to use the 10pin Creative connector and the AUX-IN connector near it)


Audigy 2zs
----------
3x 100uF 16V d6.3 (Jamicon) - P12922-ND
5x 47uf 16V d5 (Teapo) - P11196-ND
35x 22uF 16V d4 (Jamicon) - P11213-ND
5x 10uF 16V d4 (Jamicon) - P11212-ND
11x 4.7uF 50V d4 (Jamicon) - P10315-ND
3x 1uF 50V d4 (Wincap) - P10312-ND

(digi-key.com product numbers used)


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## peach1971 (Jan 14, 2007)

I love people like you who have the motivation to fix problems by soldering.
Good old days... 

Pause bugs:
I have them when playing F.E.A.R. Combat, map "Asylum" (could be a CPU bottleneck issue though?). But I have the Audigy One btw.

Never had any pause bugs with that card before.
But I was very disappointed to look at RightMark Audio Analyzer results regarding IMD sweep tone.

What you wrote about these Jamicon caps just fits to what I think about Creative´s overall product quality.


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## raven009 (Jan 14, 2007)

i have had the exact same problem that you had with ur xfi. I have a audigy 2zs and the audio just got so bad so i switched to the onboard audio on my motherboard which for some reason works a lot better.


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## KennyT772 (Jan 14, 2007)

i have a zs and it hasnt had any problems...yet. looks like i need to bust out my 15w soldering iron soon.


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## raven009 (Jan 14, 2007)

KennyT772 said:


> i have a zs and it hasnt had any problems...yet. looks like i need to bust out my 15w soldering iron soon.



lucky


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## trodas (Jan 26, 2007)

*peach1971* - hehe, good old days rulez, don't they?   
And how else I should fix the problem? When I know what is broken and I also know that RMA did not help me a bit, becuase I got the same card with same bad caps, so I took the chances and do a 5-min fix by my hands  And it turned to be great, so... sharing the knowledge 
But could you please specify how do you mean with the pause bug in Fear? As I tried (excuse my lame english) to describe it, pause bug is only happening for me when I pause and then unpause movie (eg. 5.1 audio stream) going to 5.1 analog audio output. You get it how in a game? Pausing and unpausing game?  Please help me to understand the nature of your bug.



> I was very disappointed to look at RightMark Audio Analyzer results regarding IMD sweep tone



That is exactly where we try seek improve with the Elna RSF caps. I bet you are interesed in that, don't you? 



> these Jamicon caps just fits to what I think about Creative´s overall product quality



This need to be carved in stone and beat into heads of people that did not understand - yet 


*raven009* - yep, no wonder. Audigy2zs use inferior caps as well, so... No wonder you had these bugses. I had them with Audigy2zs too, and that is mainly why I upgraded for X-Fi. Just to get the same problems after like 2 months of usage like 10 or 12h per day...  
Your onboard audio does not have these problems, because it does use better caps. That it is. If you exchange your caps on your Audigy, you can use it w/o bugs and with improved sound as well 


*KennyT772* - maybe you did not have 5.1 or 7.1 output? Did you use frequently the 24bit quality? AC3filter for 24bit quality output? DTS used much? And how much you use the computer and how your card is old?
All that seems matter a lot. People with just stereo or headphones output does not seems to having these problems. Also I noticed that slower computers are less likely to be affected with these problems  I going with all timings tightest possible and overclock as far, as possible (not PCI bus, tough), so... I stressing the X-Fi badly 


*Now some technical update.*
I took the time (because some users questioned why use 6.3V cap in the place of the big 220uF 16V Jamicon) and measured voltages on the caps I exchanged.
On the big one (voltage supply for main X-Fi chip)s exactly 1.25V, so a 2V polymer cap is more that enough there. 4V polymer or 6.3V electrolyte cap if fine there, as long as it have as big capacity as possible. 510uF 4V Sanyo Os-con polymer come to my mind as purrrfect candidate 
On the other 100uF caps I exchanged to 120uF 16V ones are 5V (obviously filtering gate voltages) and 0.59-0.6V on the other one (close to the main chip one). Also there could be used lower voltage caps, if need. But the small caps aren't made much for low voltages in mind. (but IIRC Nichicon HE caps are like 100 or 150uF and 6.3V ones too)


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## jms45 (Jan 26, 2007)

peach1971 said:


> I love people like you who have the motivation to fix problems by soldering.
> Good old days...
> 
> Pause bugs:
> ...




the pause bugs your having in fear is down to only having 1gb of ram, i know this because me and 3 of my friends all play fear a lot and all of us had 1gb of ram, after i got another gig of ram the pause's during play are now gone and my friends also followed suit and are enjoying playing without the pauses, if you run the game and minimize to desktop and crank up your task manager you'll see fear will be using 680+ meg of ram, the pause's are being caused by the memory swaps from hard disk to ram.


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## trodas (Jan 26, 2007)

Hmmm, I never had a problem with Fear on 1G ram when I played it, however I was using W2k SP2, highly optimized. So 680MB of ram was not a problem at all...  Of course 2G is always nice to have


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## jms45 (Jan 27, 2007)

trodas said:


> Hmmm, I never had a problem with Fear on 1G ram when I played it, however I was using W2k SP2, highly optimized. So 680MB of ram was not a problem at all...  Of course 2G is always nice to have



i wouldn't say it was a problem,more of an annoyance, after all i did play the game for a year before i actually got the extra memory, but i always kinda thought it was a little stuttery due to my graphics card's or something, even though at the time i was using 2x 7600GT's in SLI and the performance test was telling me i was getting 60 fps minimum, after that i started questioning what was actually going on, so as i said i paused the game and minimized and seen that 686mb was in use while it was paused, obviously that would fluctuate during actual gameplay causing more loading to and from virtual memory, during online play though it wasnt anywhere near as bad with the stuttering as it was in the single player mode, more than likely due to loading the next scene's AI and the sounds for the AI  as the stutter would happen only during heavy gunfights, but after i got the extra gig all that has gone and fear runs really smooth constantly.


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## KennyT772 (Jan 27, 2007)

I use 5.1 output all the time and output is always in 24bit. 
Ever now and then I will get a sound glitch, but I have written this off as bad coding much as you have. It isn't anything affecting game play only a anomaly I cannot reproduce.


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## trodas (Jan 28, 2007)

*jms45* - oh, yes. Then this is clearly a situation where more ram is need  Nothing to do with X-Fi caps then 


*KennyT772* - so, you do have some bugses in audio - thanks for admiting it. And as for the source of them, I was talking with Alex (autor of AC3 filter) a lot and it looks like the "bad coding" is only happening on Creative cards... 
That might give you a hint where the problem is - and as time progress, you will see more and more of these quirks - unless you recap the card


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## trodas (Mar 15, 2007)

Sorry for delay, I was awfully bussy recently, but it shall be a bit better now  
This is a picture of X-Fi Fatal1ty by user Raggingbone that continue to have crashes and stuff with the card:





No wonder when the Jamicon for main X-Fi chip is alredy leaking!  

Now back to the topic. There should be two types of caps on X-Fi. One for voltage filtering, one for Audio transmiting. (and the audio transmiting include the 4,7uF caps that need to be bipolar) Hence first type of caps need as high capacity and as low ESR as possible. My suggestion is:

1x 220uF 16V = 1000uF Samxon GC 6.3V (BigPope)
2x 100uF 16V  = 120uF Panny FM 16V (digi-key P12922-ND)
3x 47uF 16V = 47uF Panny FM 25V (digi-key P12923-ND)

28x 22uF 16V = Elna RFS 25V (digi-key 604-1051-ND)
10x 10uF 16V = Elna RFS 25V (digi-key 604-1050-ND)
8x 4.7uF 50V = Blck Gate N 4.7uF 50V (http://www.soniccraft.com/black_gate_capacitors.htm )

Other capaciors are mostly nowhere near the need specs or specs of the recommended parts. Sorry.


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## Polaris573 (Mar 16, 2007)

Ewww.  I think I'll inspect the caps on my X-Fi.

I've never had a problem with it, but now that I know the caps are junk I'll have to watch it and try to head off any problems.


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## tkpenalty (Mar 18, 2007)

... Thats why i switched to onboard audio.. in BF2 all the speech was garbled..


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## Ketxxx (Mar 18, 2007)

This is exactly why I dint buy creative crap, its overpriced shit. Heed this creative, my ONBOARD sound has never acted up or been retarded - with the exception of the adi1988b codec, but drivers are out fixing the popping and clicking now, and im in the midst of making uber modded drivers.

creative, please, go bankrupt soon.


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## HellasVagabond (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks but id rather wait and buy a new card than to play Doctor with my X-Fi


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## Ketxxx (Mar 18, 2007)

The X-FI is in need of intensive care before its even left the factory nevermind the shelf\box


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## KennyT772 (Mar 18, 2007)

trodas said:


> *jms45* - oh, yes. Then this is clearly a situation where more ram is need  Nothing to do with X-Fi caps then
> 
> 
> *KennyT772* - so, you do have some bugses in audio - thanks for admiting it. And as for the source of them, I was talking with Alex (autor of AC3 filter) a lot and it looks like the "bad coding" is only happening on Creative cards...
> That might give you a hint where the problem is - and as time progress, you will see more and more of these quirks - unless you recap the card



does the same with my karajan onboard or another sound card, bad coding indeed or just too much overclocking.


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## peach1971 (Mar 18, 2007)

Oh, haven´t read this topic for a while.
So, the `pause bug` is gone (I upgraded to a new CPU).



> I was very disappointed to look at RightMark Audio Analyzer results regarding IMD sweep tone
> 
> That is exactly where we try seek improve with the Elna RSF caps. I bet you are interesed in that, don't you?



I´m VERY interested, cause I pretend to be able to hear the high frequency crap of this card.
I produce a lot of music with my PC(s), and the difference between the HF quality of an Audigy and my 8CH card (Marican Marc 8, http://www.marian.de/products/marc_8_midi ) is awesome.
It was often frustrating, cause I thought I messed up on a mastering job (also converting 24Bit to 16Bit), but in the end it was clear: It´s a lack of HF qualaty regarding the Audigy.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Mar 18, 2007)

Replace them all.

I dare you =D

Anyone have a terribly buggy one they wanna sell me super cheap? 

I like how you did that though, picture of a bad cap... read further.. BAM! a whole farm of the little suckers.

I am however impressed these problems are still not corrected.


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## Ketxxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Their not corrected because Creative are crap, their customer support is dreadful, they ignore reported problems, your lucky if creative ever issue updated drivers for their products, product quality is horrible, their overpriced.. do I really need to go on?


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## peach1971 (Mar 18, 2007)

Naw you don´t


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## trodas (Apr 8, 2007)

No, don't go any futher, please...

The problem is, like with Microsoft, that Creative get itself established in the bussiness of soundcards and BF2 simply sounds awesome only on X-Fi... 

So, they got us by the balls  That is the problem right there :shadedshu


*peach1971* - the soundcard looks pretty neat, the 4 output channels design seems to be well done  I like the SMD ceramic caps as well


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## Casheti (Apr 16, 2007)

Onboard sound FTW


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## pt (Apr 16, 2007)

Ketxxx said:


> Their not corrected because Creative are crap, their customer support is dreadful, they ignore reported problems, your lucky if creative ever issue updated drivers for their products, product quality is horrible, their overpriced.. do I really need to go on?



just like asus 
(had to show my hate)

altought all of that above they do some good mp3


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## Jimmy 2004 (Apr 16, 2007)

Well, no problems with my good old Audigy 4 here - it has decent 7.1 surround sound, no pause bugs and the drivers are fine in XP. Not sure which capacitors it's using, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so I'll leave it as it is either way.


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## Mussels (Apr 16, 2007)

My audigy4 is working great too - got it cheap off ebay last year.

Honestly, thank god for vistas new software based sound, we may finally get some competition to Creatives buggy reign over PC audio.


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## trodas (Jun 13, 2008)

(X-Fi Fatal1ty Sanyo Os-con SEPC 820uF 2,5V for main chip voltage filtering used)

This attempt not helped me to get rid of the pause bug - eg. pausing and unpausing movie with any player, using AC3 filter 24bit output cause switched channels or terrible noise after unpause.
Damn.
Bridging the polymer with 10uF SMD ceramic helped a bit more, but it is still like 50/50 chance to get a pause bug there. Panny FM 470uF with 4,7uF ceramic helped me much more before, damn.

Next try - 1000uF Samxon GC bridged with 4.7uF CMD ceramic (Tayo Yuden).

Nah, next try - try to study how to *voltage regulation for the main X-Fi chip* is done in the first place 

So, the volage regulation for the main X-Fi chip is made by *TI PS54352* chip.
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
The recommended use is this:






From this is quite obvious, that Creative design is very bellow specs one and for example - the imput filtering elyte capacity should be at least 100uF and as close to the chip a 10uF (at least) ceramics low-ESR cap. The Creative imput filtering elyte are 22uF Jamicon (!) and I did not yet measure the ceramic one, but I fear it is not "at least" 10uF as it should be.
Measured 15uF. I should desolder it, I think I measure something else with it also...

Same for the output. I see bulk capacity there, a 330uF elyt, 100uF another low esr cap and 0,1uF ceramics. Creative used a 220uF Jamicon witch is not  low ESR cap in any way, shape or form...

So now it is clear, why I get the best results with mediocre 470uF Panny FM 16V cap (mediocre because using 16V cap on 1.25V a "bit" soften it's specs) with bridged 4,7uF ceramics are best and why the ultra-low-ESR polymer was not a great there.

My fault. Now I also going to replace the imput filtering "bulk" capacity - by Creative 22uF 16V Jamicon - by me a 150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE :dev: Yet the usage of 470uF Panny FM bridged with 0,1uF ceramic cap is not so great also. I still having the "pause bug"...


Considering what might cause the "pause bug" I do wonder, how well Creative followed up the DAC recommended connections:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4382_F1.pdf














PS. I just replaced the there output opamps from the old useless (they was used even in Audigy (1) !!!) MC4558C ( http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/194796/STMICROELECTRONICS/MC4558CD.html ) to the praised LM4562 ( http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/156190/NSC/LM4562.html ) opamps. It was kinda easy, however the changes are minimal. You cannot hear any difference in mp3 bellow 320kBi, that is for sure. When we talking about DTS 768kBi, well, ten there finally is some difference  But not so major. It is obvious that complete recap of the Jamicon crap caps has to be done as well, as the audiojacks has to be gold-plated for the subwoofer connection, the whole subwoofer has to be recapped and possibly modified also, so there is a notable difference.

Ask the Nartional Semiconductor for there sample pieces of the LM4562MA in the SOIC NARROW version for free there:
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html
And you can replace the there 4558 "things" used for the output channels :dev: There is also another opamps for mic in, line in and some more down there... So maybe a 6 opamps is not a bad idea.


PS2. parts list for SB0460 - X-FI Fatal1ty:
http://rapidshare.com/files/90009691/X-Fi_Fatal1ty_parts.txt
parts list for SB0550 - X-FI Elite Pro:
http://rapidshare.com/files/90009544/X-Fi_Elite_Pro_parts.txt
...a good start 

A few interesting (but not mine, Bichi's work) X-Fi mod pictures:


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## trodas (Jun 13, 2008)

Middle stage of my experiments - Panny FC 22uF 25V used, before simple wires are used:






Panny FC 22uF 25V instad of Jamicons 22uF 16V - not bad :xd: Finally the Opamps exchange produce hearing difference. W/O caps exchange = no difference! But only wires are better - give better audio details :dev:
(and noticably stronger bass line, witch is somewhat extreme sometimes...)





So, my mods on X-Fi so far are:

Main chip
*C177* - 220uF 16V Jamicon, main chip voltage (1.2V) filtering:
470uF 16V Panny FM d8 - good, but still pause big
3300uF 10V Samxon RS d10 - card did not work at all (!!!)
*1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC* - good, pause bug reduced
*C172* - 22uF 16V Jamicon, main chip regultor voltage imput (5V) filtering -> *150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE*

DAC - Cirrus Logic CS4382 - http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4382_F1.pdf
*C16* - 100uF 16V Jamicon, DAC voltage (3.3V) filtering -> *470uF 6.3V Samxon GD* d6.3
*C107* - 47uF 16V Jamicon, DAC voltage (3.3V) filtering -> *47uF 25V Panny FM* d5
*C91* - 10uF 16V Jamicon, DAC voltage (5?V) filtering -> *150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE* d5
*C119* - 10uF 16V Jamicon, DAC voltage (5?V) filtering -> *150uF 6.3V Nichicon HE* d5

Opamps
*C46* - 100uF 16V Jamicon, opamps voltage (5V) filtering -> *470uF 6.3V Samxon GD* d6.3

Unknown - at back of the card
Cxx - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM d5
*C186* - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> *47uF 25V Panny FM* d5
*C205* - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> *22uF 25V Panny FC* d5


New opamps LM4562 (old are NJM4556)
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html

Voltage regulator 1.2V (CA20K1 - main chip) - PS54352
http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352
input (5V) cap filter - C172, output cap filter - C177

Voltage regulator 3.3V (???) - AMS1117
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/AdvancedMonolithicSystems/mXuxzrt.pdf

Voltage regulator 5V (opamps + DAC VA) - UA78M05C
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets2/3/0629sokqprs63qahgjp82zof95wy.pdf
input (12V) cap filter - 


all the 22uF 16V Jamicons shorted as recommended:





Too radical? As intermediate step you can try replace these Jamicons with Panny FC 22uF 25V caps - and hear the difference. In fact, there is almost no difference after opamps exchange, but huge after caps exchange WITH already exchanged opamps...!


So far I did:
Exchanged 4 opamps to the LM4562 ones
Removed 16 pcs of coupling caps C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68 and shorted them all with wire to get rid of the cursed Jamicons and improve the quality of sound output
Replaced C177 to Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V
Replaced C172 to Nichicon HE 150uF 6.3V
Replaced C16 to Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V
Replaced C46 to Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V
Replaced C91 to Nichicon HE 150uF 6.3V
Replaced C119 to Nichicon HE 150uF 6.3V
Replaced C107 to Panasonic FM 47uF 25V
Replaced C186 to Panasonic FM 47uF 25V
Replaced Cxxx to Panasonic FM 47uF 25V





Interesting X-Fi Elite Pro mods:


 



X-Fi Fatal1ty 12V opamps mod:


 




*Most important picture ever - X-Fi and voltages*

Hard work, but there we go:





In picture it looks this way - green are caps that has audio on them with stereo output, WinAMP playing...


```
C177 (1.23V)     - 220uF 16V Jamicon -> 1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC
C16 (0.7V)       - 100uF 16V Jamicon -> 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD
C46 (5V)         - 100uF 16V Jamicon -> 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD
C107 (4.7V)      - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C186 (5V)        - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM
C205 (0V)        - 47uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM
C20 (2.47V)      - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C33 (3.3V)       - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C56 (-5V)        - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C72 (-5V)        - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C74 (12V)        - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 68uF 16V Panny FM
C75 (-12V)       - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 68uF 16V Panny FM
C101 (5V)        - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C114 (5V)        - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C124 (3.3V)      - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C172 (5V)        - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C206 (0V)        - 22uF 16V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM
C209 (0V)        - 22uF 25V Jamicon -> 47uF 25V Panny FM
C27 (5V)         - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C43 (8.8V)       - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 100uF 10V Panny FM
C91 (5V)         - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C108 (2.16V)     - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C115 (2.4V)      - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C119 (3.3V)      - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C123 (2.3V)      - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C136 (5V)        - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C151 (3.3V)      - 10uF 16V Jamicon -> 150uF 6.3V Panny FM
C18 (2.4V aud)   - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V
C19 (0V aud)     - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V
C21 (2.39 aud)   - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V
C22 (2.47)       - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V
C48 (2.26V)      - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V
C49 (2.26V)      - 4.7uF 16V Jamicon BIPOLAR -> Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V
C102 (2.4V aud)  - 4.7uF 50V Jamicon -> Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V
C104 (2.4V aud)  - 4.7uF 50V Jamicon -> Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V

Remove and short 16x 22uF 16V Jamicon decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. It is possible to remove all the marked with green audio caps C18, C19, C21, C22, C48, C49, C102 and C104 if you did not use the AUX IN analog 2 channel CD in and the 10 pins Creative connector, for witch the 6 pcs of the bipolar caps are used to separate the AC3 6 channels signal (5.1).

35 caps total
-------------
 1x Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V (d8)
 2x Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V (d6.3)
 1x Panny FM 100uF 10V (d5) P12919-ND
 4x Panny FM 47uF 25V (d5) P12923-ND
 2x Panny FM 68uF 16V (d5) P12921-ND
17x Panny FM 150uF 6.3V (d5) P12917-ND
 6x Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit
 2x Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit
```


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## trodas (Jun 13, 2008)

*Why not use tantalum caps*
http://www.hindawi.com/GetPDF.aspx?doi=10.1080/08827510212341
*Read conclusion about noise in tantalum cap*
The most important sources of fluctuation consist in regenerative microbreaks, fluctuation of polarisation and mechanical strain. The frequency dependence of noise spectral density in mHz region gives information on slow irreversible processes of tantalum pentoxide crystal-isation and oxide reduction. The self-healing process can improve sample quality due to leak-age current and noise reduction. :redface: 

Or there:
Low Noise Balanced Microphone Preamp
*I also recommend against the use of tantalum capacitors, and regular readers will notice that I have not suggested them for any project* (although there was one suggestion that you could use them if you wanted to). The only capacitor fault I have ever had to track down with an intermittent short circuit was a tantalum bead type - it was neither fun, nor easy to find :-(


So, using tantalum caps in X-Fi are bad idea, alrough they might look as good choice at first and I must admit, I was considered them at first as well, but then I looked more deeply and contacted experts and they all recommended against it.


*Interesting discovery!*

I had enought of waiting and I decided to test, if the d6.3 caps (remember, the original ones are just d4) will fit there. So I took my poor X-Fi (I wish I get my hand on some dead X-Fi for this testings, but...) and started soldering on it again, even when I did not have to caps in my hands yet, sadly.

So, I desoldered them all and cleaned the holes nicely, because I knew I will solder them right back, but first I need to test the d6.3 caps there...






So far, so good. Then I get the caps - I picked up a 8 pcs of - luckily to still have a few of them here and there - 120uF 16V Panny FM caps that are d6.3 - tought they are not bipolar and not audio caps either, but I was not going to solder them there - I just wanted to made some progress and to make sure we can fit a d6.3 caps there... So I just stick them thru:






And they fit! :wahaha: Hoooray!

Another pic:






And then I make the most important discovery yet. I suspected that before, but I was not sure. These 6 bipolar caps are for the Creative 10-pin connector 6 in/out channels separation.
The two ones are not bipolar, but normal caps and they are for decoupling of the CD-in (AUX IN) input.

This might not sound so important to you yet, but... I asked myself "What if I did not even use these connectors?" "Do I really need the caps there at all, or for the BEST possible quality is better to get rid of them completely?"

I mean - there is one thing better that good audio cap in the passing of audio signal. And that is wire - or no cap in this case.

So out of a pure luck and based just on a intuition I tried the X-Fi w/o these caps and quess what - it played and playing well still! :dev: :wahaha:

*This is an important solution and very cheap audio improvement only for people who not use either of these connectors!*

Amazingly and not unsurprisingly, once the Jamicons are out of the audio loop now completely, the detail level in music increased hearably once again.
However there is a side issue to that improvement. Now I can hear some compression distortions even at 320kBi, witch is considered as very high bitrate! Also, any more importantly, many many and many my mp3 music files contain some slight errors in music, that are now also possible to hear well...

In short, you might want to consider doing these mods (I'm being very frank here) because you will hear more that you might wish to hear :redface:


PS. old but interesting article: Creative's Sound Blaster X-Fi audio processor http://techreport.com/articles.x/8884


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## trodas (Jun 13, 2008)

Final look - the thread should be renamed to "X-Fi holocaust", as I removed everything I did not use/like 

Bad caps Jamicons are OFF my machine, HOOORAY! 

The dynamic seems to be improved slightly, but that could be just in my head...
However replacing the suxxking Jami-crap working as DAC voltage stabilization and be connected on the FILT+ pin COULD change/improve the sound...
(bear in mind that my audio output AFTER the X-Fi is reasonably suxxking low-end one, and I did not have so good ears... so maybe someone else spot much more noticable difference - or dismis my claim of slight improvment there)










Voltage stabilizing for opamps is very important.





Voltage filering for the main X-Fi chip 





Useless stuff is gone now.





Better voltage stabilization for the Wolfenson audio codec can't hurt too  

X-Fi holocaust 
removed everything I did not use


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## imperialreign (Jun 13, 2008)

nice walkthrough, man - shows just how much work you've put into all this!


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## trodas (Jun 14, 2008)

Thanks 
Next thing to consider - use AD8599 opamps: http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,759_786_AD8599,00.html

...and perhaps even removal and shortcut of the muting transistors, as they have no bussines to be there


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## intel igent (Jun 14, 2008)

trodas that is simply amazing man!

your'e awesome!


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## btarunr (Jun 14, 2008)

Haha, good work. You just figured out how the X-Fi Titanium is made. They lack phase III caps (some are reduced to flat-bed caps (that are used in present-generation video cards) while others are simply jumped.).

Game for a DAC mod? http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4397/ak4397.html

Append: AK4327 lacks a 48pin layout that CS4382 has, you could improvise on the pin out, extend the pins. AD1833A is another DAC that comes to mind. I'll post some whitepapers soon.


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## imperialreign (Jun 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Haha, good work. You just figured out how the X-Fi Titanium is made. They lack phase III caps (some are reduced to flat-bed caps (that are used in present-generation video cards) while others are simply jumped.).
> 
> Game for a DAC mod? http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4397/ak4397.html
> 
> Append: AK4327 lacks a 48pin layout that CS4382 has, you could improvise on the pin out, extend the pins. AD1833A is another DAC that comes to mind. I'll post some whitepapers soon.



I think I might be jumping the DAC hurdle after I finish modding my card - I've got a CS4385 sitting on my desk right here that would easily replace the CS4382.  IIRC, the only issue I'll have to cross is the difference in supply voltage used for this DAC.

I considered an ADC swapout as well, but couldn't find anything better than the WS8775SEDS already on the card


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## Apocalypsee (Jun 18, 2008)

trodas said:


> Thanks
> Next thing to consider - use AD8599 opamps: http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,759_786_AD8599,00.html
> 
> ...and perhaps even removal and shortcut of the muting transistors, as they have no bussines to be there


Yeah, AD8599 get a good review, and some say AD8066 sounds great on X-Fi too. Too many good opamp to put on the card 

Hmm....I wonder who recommend bypassing the muting transistors  

The other thing you can do is, bypass the whole thing, don't even use any opamp at all. I get great result, I A/B tested it with new opamp (put it on other channel), and all I can say I prefer without any opamp at all. Spacious, good bass (despite 10uF caps on decoupling, if normal opamp bass is kick, this kicks and punch  ) great soundstage, warmer vocals. I never going to use opamp anymore  The only downside is you need decoupling caps, or DC offset will kill your amplifier


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## trodas (Jul 5, 2008)

Well, the AD8599 is hyped enough to try it on. Another thought is, that the rest of my setup is nowhere near as great, so it justify the AD8599 opamp anyway. So it might does not matter very much, what opamp is there - if this is not the old crap NJM 4558 Creative use since the dawn of SoundBlaster series and then claim each card as much better that it's predecessor 

Nevermind. I wait what imperialreign says about AD8599 and then make up my mind. The idea is to use them in both my X-Fi and my amp as well...

The muting of the output transistors is interesting idea. I think it is a fair trade to trade the clicks when drivers is loading AND when switching the audio modes for the higher detail level, don't you agree?

However I seen just this image:




That says it bypass them, however there is two main problems.
1) it is only for the L and R channels, while I need to take care about six channels - L, R, RL, RR, CENTER and SUB.
2) tracing the pins of the transistors back to the opamps output (pins 1 and 7) show no connection at all to those shorted pins!

Anyone know where the output from pins 1 and 7 of the opamps really go? The mod definitively connect well the output, but the input is wrong...

And what about the other channels?!

Here is a little drawing of what I checked to be true - X-Fi jacks connection






Any help/ideas? What I did overlook?


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## imperialreign (Jul 6, 2008)

trodas said:


> Well, the AD8599 is hyped enough to try it on. Another thought is, that the rest of my setup is nowhere near as great, so it justify the AD8599 opamp anyway. So it might does not matter very much, what opamp is there - if this is not the old crap NJM 4558 Creative use since the dawn of SoundBlaster series and then claim each card as much better that it's predecessor
> 
> Nevermind. I wait what imperialreign says about AD8599 and then make up my mind. The idea is to use them in both my X-Fi and my amp as well...



just swapped out the LM4562 on line_out 1 and line_out 2 with AD8599 . . . 

initial impressions . . . really dynamic - I'm not hearing any quality loss through the OPAMPs, meaning, I'm hearing distinct sounds I hadn't noticed with the LM4562 . . . AD8599 doesn't seem to be blending frequencies together, either; distinct sounds stay very distinct from each other instead of being blended or one sound being buried by another

output is more warm and full . . . not as sharp as the LM4562, either

I don't hear even the slightest bit of frequency oscillation yet, either - it'll take me a bit more time to give a strong opinion on this though.

give me about 3-4 days to burn these two in, and see if my opinion changes; then I'll run a loopback test on the card and see how IMD+N and THD+N compare to when the LM4562s were installed.


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## trodas (Jul 10, 2008)

Looks like these Hi-Fists got this wrong this time. AD8599 is supposed to be made for the audio, so it IS slower and less picky to the RFI, witch is very strong especially in your case, imperialreign. I'm very glad to hear my suggestion again turned out to be pretty good. Unforunately my current speaker output is much more of noise, so even if I do the swap now, I will never notice a thing 



> give me about 3-4 days to burn these two in, and see if my opinion changes; then I'll run a loopback test on the card and see how IMD+N and THD+N compare to when the LM4562s were installed.



Yea, burn-in is sadly necessary. I never believed it at first, but I come to recognize that itis not a myth, like many and many other things. I would like to have AD8599 in both my X-Fi and my amplifier stage as well. Currently there are in both cases the LM4562 and I will need to solder 4pcs of the AD8599 into DIO8 empty socket, witch I then I insert into the DIP8 sockets in my amp... Then slap a pure cooper heatsinks on them.

Regardless - I'm glad you probably did not regret the opamps swap I was pushing for


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## imperialreign (Jul 10, 2008)

here's the detailed hardware testing results:

first - the Fatal1ty with LM4562








here's the same card, but with AD8599 instead:








I ran the AD8599 tests 4-times each to make sure of those results -


comparatively, the AD8599 allows for a better dynamic range at all testing levels, compared to the LM4562 . . . it might only be an average difference of -2dbA, but for such a small component that's a lot . . .

THD and IMD+N results for the AD8599 are very-slightly better, the most improvement difference, though is at 16bit playbacks; coupled with the slighlty higher dynamic range, I'd conclude as well that these OPAMPs aren't as affected by EMI as the LM4562


also of note - the AD8599 rated better at stereo crosstalk than the LM4562 . . . meaning there's less channel bleeding 


TBH, the AD8599 sounds the same to me now as it did after first installation (surprisingly).  I really also dig how they sound compared to the LM4562 as well; the 4562 OPAMPs produce some very sharp frequencies that I personally found to be annoying at times.  The 8599 has a lot warmer sound, IMO it has a lot more depth to it.

For the cheaper price, I'd say it ousts the 4562.


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## trodas (Jul 12, 2008)

Fantastic - great results and with good sound too - the preffered opamps choice for X-Fi is then AD8599 one 



> I'd conclude as well that these OPAMPs aren't as affected by EMI as the LM4562



Must be true, many others saying also that the LM4562 does like to pick a lot interference from he air and even I did not noticed anything, well, in my case is relatively LOW EMI, while in yours is relatively HIGH EMI level, so... Good to know.

Now what about to slap these little cooper heatsinks you used on LM4562 ones on the AD8599 too? Or are these tests done already with them?

And there IS one thing I missing here. The output DC offset levels. But I quess I have to measure that for myself. For the LM4562 ones, it was that:

*X-Fi output DC offset measuring* (LM4562 opamps)
-----------------------------------
L: -190mV DC, 10mV AC
R: -174mV DC, 10.2mV AC
RL: -210.2mV DC, 10.1mV AC
RR: -204.7mV DC, 10mV AC
CENTER: -209.5mV DC, 10mV AC
SW: -231.9mV DC, 10.2mV AC


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## trodas (Jul 13, 2008)

*Removing X-Fi muting transistors.*

Having transistors in the audio loop is definitively a big NO-NO, just go ask any audiophile of Hi-Fists and he did not even need to be an extreme one to tell you this. So, I concentrated my efforts this way. First I produced this picture of what is short direct contact on my X-Fi Fatal1ty: http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee193/trodas_cr/X-Fi_opamps_outputs.jpg

And todays I go deeper. It is same for each output. After opamp, there is a 33ohm resistor to protect the opamp from shortcut on the end. It has minimal impact on the signal, so, keep it. Later there are two muting transistors, for the positive and negative flow:






And after them a two small caps to the ground to kill the possible high frequency interference. For L and R channels the card utilize 4 separate transistors. For the rest a dual transistor is used to save space - two (or coudl that be four?) ones in one.

Regardless, the removal is rather easy. First get rid of them:







Then solder a shorts there:











...and you are free to test them. As you probably noticed, I for the work desolder the C46 and C27. And also as you sure noticed, I replaced the LM4562 opamps with AD8599 ones.


*The results.*
After hearing the sound, I was like "Holly ****...!"
There is no words to describe how much better it sounds. The oversharped thick sound of the LM4562 is gone (LM4562 also like to pick a lot RFI) and the sound is rich and full - and yet more detailed - very likely thanks to these muting transistors removed!

Fantastic change, damn I'm glad I did it! 


*Side-effects.*
As everything in life, there is a price for this. Not only this is NOT easy mod (do NOT try that, unless you are soldering MASTER, and I'm not kidding) but it also has consequences. Not only you want to delete all, even the 320kBi mp3 files now, but upon the driver loading in windows boot, there is notable click in the speakers. Same when changing audio mode. Not louder that the amp is set for, so a minor price for such wonderfull, rich sound.
There is a bigger price and I was quick to discover it.
I remember it well from measuring the voltages on the caps on X-Fi. When I touch the opamps, well, then the X-Fi started to oscilate like MAD and the resulting sound noise, even on small testing speakers, are unbearable.
So, to get to it - I plug my rear speakers into the SUB/CENTER jack, so upon discovering that, I was like fixing this. So I unplug the jack... and the moment it started. The X-Fi, no longer protected with these muting transistors, start oscilating like mad. From all 6 speakers it output SO horrible noise and SO strong, that it was like when F18 is about to land on your head.
I can't remember anything comparable in my life.
My stepbro run to my room asking WTF... so you get the picture.
The oscilating noise, when you change your speakers, does not stop till reboot.

For me it is fair price to pay. I just can't now hotplug the speakers of fiddle with them "on the fly", like I used to. This is kinda sad and limiting, but what one can do. I'm ceratainly not going to put these cursed transistors back, no way. I love the sound now _way_ too much.


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## Ketxxx (Jul 13, 2008)

I said it before, and I'll say it again. This thread proves what utter junk Creative make.


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## imperialreign (Jul 13, 2008)

nice, trodas!  By the time you're done with that card, you'll have to scrape the Creative logo off of it 

I might end up giving this a shot at some point later as well.

As to your question on using HS on the AD8599 - I hadn't tested that yet; but, I figured if they made such a marked improvement for the LM4562, they should make an equally impressive improvement for the AD8599.

Otherwise, my replacement card finally showed up; need to order me another set of 8599 so I can begin butchering this card 




Ketxxx said:


> I said it before, and I'll say it again. This thread proves what utter junk Creative make.




I'd agree to an extent, I'm sure considering the volume of cards they sell they have to buy PCB components cheap, which leaves us with some less than desireable parts.

The Jamicons are alright for the average Joe, but they degrade very quickly as well.

Considering the users we have here, I'm sure if we had Auzen cards or Xonars, we'd be picking them apart as well


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## Ketxxx (Jul 13, 2008)

Doubtful. You seen a pic of a Xonar or Auzen? Every component on them is high quality.


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## trodas (Jul 14, 2008)

*Ketxxx* - 





> I said it before, and I'll say it again. This thread proves what utter junk Creative make.



If they had higher quality of the PCB, people did not losing their cards so easy, so, true. Jamicons are bad caps either. Not good for audio, not reliable and certainly not good for voltage foltering. In fact, they are not good for anything.
NJM4558 opamps was first made in 1978 and they used them on 2003 or 2004 soundcard. The list could go on, but there is one point you gotta give them.
Even default the card sound still good and it is easily upgradable. And even they tend to overbload the drivers, they has the best EAX support, OpenAL support and X-RAM for samples. Not to mention lowest CPU load, so...
It is somewhat usable junk. If you did not encounter freezes in game, like I did thx to Jamicons (they stop as soon, as I recap C177), you tend to rate the X-Fi abit higher, like imperialreign did. I do have to lower the rating based on my experience. It is not a Fatal1ty only issue, tough. They put a G-Luxon caps on X-Fi Elite Pro.

Now I have a big problem with that. Ask anyone who specilaize in caps to name five most horrible types of bad caps. Chances are that ANYONE will include these G-Luxons. If I should do it, then:
G-Luxon, GSC, Fuhjyyu/VENT, CapXon, TMS, Lelon, Asia-X, Chhsi, HEC, Teapo, OST...

Notice I place the G-Suxxons on the very first place. Now using them in the very high end card of the line does sound laughable... but it is a bit crazy/supersarcastic laugh.


*imperialreign* - 





> nice, trodas! By the time you're done with that card, you'll have to scrape the Creative logo off of it



Thanks! I did not consider that, but I do consider:

- replace C72 with Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V because that cap filter the negative -5V for opamps, so a 150uF Panny FM 6.3V is NOT adequate here

- replace the mic input M33078 opamp (or what the hell this is, need more research)

- add a TI shield on the back of the card to protect it from both the EMI and RFI

- add a pure cooper small heatsinks on opamps (shown to improve dB ratings by 1 - 2dB using the LM4562 opamps as well as give less noise (cooler operation) and also act as RFI shield) and on the DAC

And that should be it 



> As to your question on using HS on the AD8599 - I hadn't tested that yet; but, I figured if they made such a marked improvement for the LM4562, they should make an equally impressive improvement for the AD8599.



I tend to disagree, but time will tell. I tend to disagree because AD8599 is not known to tend to picky RF. It is a slower, audio-made opamp. So added shielding will not give it edge over situation w/o shielding.
Lower working temperature sure help to lower the noise, but the question is, if this could be measurable. You get a notable difference heatsinking the DAC, tough.
Of course it can't hurt a thing, so... slap them in and measure. Add DAC heastink and measure again. Remove blocking transistors (BIG change!) and measure again.



> Otherwise, my replacement card finally showed up; need to order me another set of 8599 so I can begin butchering this card



Don't foget the caps, man! 

*Ketxxx* - 





> Doubtful. You seen a pic of a Xonar or Auzen? Every component on them is high quality.



...and PCB is made in China, just like the rest  What opamps it use anyway?


----------



## Ketxxx (Jul 14, 2008)

trodas said:


> *Ketxxx* -
> 
> If they had higher quality of the PCB, people did not losing their cards so easy, so, true. Jamicons are bad caps either. Not good for audio, not reliable and certainly not good for voltage foltering. In fact, they are not good for anything.
> NJM4558 opamps was first made in 1978 and they used them on 2003 or 2004 soundcard. The list could go on, but there is one point you gotta give them.
> ...



Very true. When I used to do some things for Mushkin I suggested they replace the Asia-X caps they used in the PSU unit they sent me, Asia-X, are.. well their just junk as you said. Teapo are also bad like you say, but I've found their 200v monster caps (I forget their exact spec) have always been solid. IMO the Creative X-FI even after recpa is just junk simply because nobody should spend £200+ on a soundcard then have to recap the entire PCB to be absolutely sure no problems with it will arise. Even after doing that though, it still doesn't resolve Creatives total lack of support and driver updates. I'm not entirely sure on the specs of the Xonar D2X, I've just seen some reasonably detailed pics, and things like solid state capacitors are never a bad thing. I will be able to get a super high-res D2X pic in around the next 2-4 weeks though if your interested. I intend to pick a D2X up for myself


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## imperialreign (Jul 14, 2008)

Ketxxx said:


> Very true. When I used to do some things for Mushkin I suggested they replace the Asia-X caps they used in the PSU unit they sent me, Asia-X, are.. well their just junk as you said. Teapo are also bad like you say, but I've found their 200v monster caps (I forget their exact spec) have always been solid. IMO the Creative X-FI even after recpa is just junk simply because nobody should spend £200+ on a soundcard then have to recap the entire PCB to be absolutely sure no problems with it will arise. Even after doing that though, it still doesn't resolve Creatives total lack of support and driver updates. I'm not entirely sure on the specs of the Xonar D2X, I've just seen some reasonably detailed pics, and things like solid state capacitors are never a bad thing. I will be able to get a super high-res D2X pic in around the next 2-4 weeks though if your interested. I intend to pick a D2X up for myself



I'll definitely give you that fact that Creative's tech and customer support is still worthless; their driver team seems to be making an effort to improve - but it's still too early to say.  But if their support and forums weren't so crap, I never would've felt a need to start the X-Fi support thread here . . .

The big thing for me when it comes to the Fatal1ty (and the Elite Pro) - no other card on the market can beat how fast these cards can process audio; all the while utilizing less than 1%-6% CPU load (depending on the number of voices) . . . unlike the Xonars.  I've seen a lot of sites test the Xonars against the X-Fi Xtreme Music for both CPU utilization and sound quality, which is kinda ridiculous as the XM is no longer commercially available, and it's like comparing an nVidia 7900GT to an ATI X1800.  The Fatal1ty uses better components and has reduced latency over the XM.

Only card on the market that is close to the Fatal1ty's processing performance is the Razer AC-1, and although it has slightly better audio quality over the Fatal1ty (SNR 117db vx 113db), it loses out in CPU utilization.

Combined with EAX 5.0HD and integrated OpenAL support, along with CMSS-3D and the Crystallizer feature - the Fatal1ty is hands down the best choice for gaming and casual listening.

If one has the guts to take a soldering iron to it, you can easily bump it's output quality closer in league with the Prelude and Elite Pro (swap out the DAC and you will be sitting in the same ballpark) . . .


But, there's still the driver issues . . . not everyone has any problems at all with the cards, but then again, a lot of people do.  It seems to almost be a 50-50 chance, y'know?  That's ridiculous by any means, but audio cards have never been known for being headache-less over the years.

Big reason why when I'm trying to recommend an audio card for someone, I try to figure out what their primary usage and purposes would be - I don't always recommend Creative hardware if I feel something else would suit them better.







			
				trodas said:
			
		

> ...and PCB is made in China, just like the rest  What opamps it use anyway?



Xonar D2 - LM4562 for front channels; TI R4580I for all others
Xonar D2X - LM4562 for front channels; TI R4580I for all others
Xonar DX - TI R4580I for front channels; TI 5532 for all others


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## Ketxxx (Jul 14, 2008)

I've never had any serious audio related problems, and surprise surprise, thats because I've never personally used a Creative card in my system. I have solved endless Creative issues for friends though. CPU utilisation is also a very moot point. Modern CPUs can handle audio processing needs with very little to no impact on gaming performance. You'll probably find THIS interesting.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 14, 2008)

I would really like a xonar D2X.Droool

Are the DX's TI dacs burr brown ones ketxxx?


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## imperialreign (Jul 14, 2008)

CPU utilization is defi moot in terms of dual and quad-core setups; but if we compare to onboard, that's a whole 'nother realm . . .

My biggest thing is the audio latency, how long it takes for a file to be pulled from the SYS, processed, and played back.  The more voices you tack on, the longer it takes to continue playback, and you can start getting into clipping and buffering issues if the card is moving faster than the system . . .

actually, the initial X-Fi releases (specifically the Fatal1ty, Xtreme Music and Elite Pro) were overly prone to audio clipping because of this; the system PCI BUS couldn't keep up with the cards and how often the device was flagging it's IRQ wanting access.  Second revision cards were being released where the card's "BIOS" were effectivelly slowing the APU down to cut back on the audio clipping.  Even still, the X-FI APUs latency times trump everything else currently out there.

The move towards PCIEx1 should allow these APUs to go back to full boogie, which is just sick . . . 

To put it into comparison - the CA201K is a full-blown audio processing unit, not a DSP or chipset like the C-Media units are; the X-Fi APU is capable of handling up to 128 hardware voices (literally up to 128 seperate audio sounds at a given time); the Xonar series can also support 128 hardware voices . . . but when we go into what the cards are capable of with software voices, the X-Fi APUs lead the pack with capability of up to 65,535 voices simultaneously . . . no C-Media chipset on the market can even come close to this capability, most topping out only within the 10,000-15,000 range (IIRC).

For the absolute best positional audio and playback possible, you need higher software voice support - big reason why CMSS-3D is still considered much better than Xonar's offering (Xear3D, IIRC); number of software voices also plays a big role in how many different times the same sound can be played at the same time, as well as software occlusion effects, and countless other aspects of the final playback. 







I'm by no means saying the Xonar cards aren't worth their cost - far from it!  They are very respectable cards, IMO - if you're looking for premier audio quality for a range of uses, they're more than capable.  They offer great audio quality, without having to pay an arm and a leg like you would for an Auzentech or high-end HT Omega.

I understand there are a lot of people that have had many issues with Creative's cards . . . but likewise with ASUS and Auzen and HT and all the other manufacturers (especially in terms of Vista issues).  Creative's issues just dwarf everyone elses due to the sheer volume of their cards on the market compared to others.

But, relatively speaking, they do have more driver issues than hardware issues - compared with everyone else.


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## Mussels (Jul 15, 2008)

CPU usage: well on a quad.... 

EAX: well lol, EAX isnt shared to anyone other than creative, so ofc they're on top. Oh except alchemy universal lets even my old AC97 soundcard have EAX 5.0, hehe.

Crystalliser: to each their own. i dont actually like it, as it just makes my music strange (possibly because i have winnar speakers)


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## Ketxxx (Jul 15, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> CPU utilization is defi moot in terms of dual and quad-core setups; but if we compare to onboard, that's a whole 'nother realm . . .
> 
> My biggest thing is the audio latency, how long it takes for a file to be pulled from the SYS, processed, and played back.  The more voices you tack on, the longer it takes to continue playback, and you can start getting into clipping and buffering issues if the card is moving faster than the system . . .
> 
> ...



Ahem.. I'll summarise the guru3d review for you  128 vioces, just like an X-FI, build quality thats lightyears ahead of the Creative POS, EAX 2.0 (lets face it.. other versions of EAX don't actually do that much to make things more "immersive") Comparable framerates in games, miles better audio quality for music and DVDs.. I think thats enough 

Asus even bundle Rightmark 3D Analyser to prove how good their Xonar is, don't see Creative doing that for their precious X-FI, do ya? 

And to hammer the nail home about CPU utilisation, the ADI1988B CODEC on the Crosshair frequently had spikes of where task manager would report 30% CPU utilisation on my 3500+. Did it affect FPS in games? Pfft. Like hell it did everything flew by and sounded amazing to boot.


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## Ketxxx (Jul 15, 2008)

tigger69 said:


> I would really like a xonar D2X.Droool
> 
> Are the DX's TI dacs burr brown ones ketxxx?



I has absolutely no idea. guru3d is probably your best place to go to find that out, they have the most detailed review for the Xonar I've seen.


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## imperialreign (Jul 15, 2008)

Mussels said:


> Crystalliser: to each their own. i dont actually like it, as it just makes my music strange (possibly because i have winnar speakers)




TBH - the Crystallizer feature is junk - except for with compressed audio and average bit rates below 190kbps.  It can improve how the file sounds, but it's still dependant on the actual quality of the compression itself.  Personally, I only recommend it's usage for gaming, or when listening to shite mp3s.  ALthough, I still recommend that users rip mp3s at at least 200 kbps; and I push using lossless codecs as well.  TBH, I hate mp3s, no matter what their bit rate.

In terms of uncompressed or lossless audio, though, Crystallizer actually hurts the output quality quite a bit . . . you can't improve on something if there's nothing there to improve on y'know?  Big reason why I recommend lossless or high-quality variable bit rate.





Ketxxx said:


> Ahem.. I'll summarise the guru3d review for you  128 vioces, just like an X-FI, build quality thats lightyears ahead of the Creative POS, EAX 2.0 (lets face it.. other versions of EAX don't actually do that much to make things more "immersive") Comparable framerates in games, miles better audio quality for music and DVDs.. I think thats enough
> 
> Asus even bundle Rightmark 3D Analyser to prove how good their Xonar is, don't see Creative doing that for their precious X-FI, do ya?
> 
> And to hammer the nail home about CPU utilisation, the ADI1988B CODEC on the Crosshair frequently had spikes of where task manager would report 30% CPU utilisation on my 3500+. Did it affect FPS in games? Pfft. Like hell it did everything flew by and sounded amazing to boot.




I've read all that stuff before - yes the Xonar series can support 128 _hardware_ voices, just like the whole X-Fi line-up, all of Auzentech's cards, HT Omega's, Razer's, and every other reputable audio card on the market.

But none of them support more than 15,000 software voices - the C-Media chipsets cannot handle that kind of driver workload.


As to RMAA; I had no idea ASUS actually provided this free utility with their cards . . . but do they provide the testing methodology .pdf as well?

Even more so, how many users actually understand how to read and interpret RMAA results, or are ASUS kind enough to also provide basic documentation for that as well?

Again, back on with CPU utilization - I never mentioned anywhere that high CPU use (as with onboard audio) affects in game FPS; that's a bollocks point nowadays, as even a nutburst Pentium 4 isn't noticeably affected by CPU use.  At the most, onboard audio might cause you 1-2FPS, and that's under the worst hardware circumstances.  Use of a standalone card might net you 1-2FPS at the most.

Is it an amount we'd actually notice in game?  Hardly.


Again, I reiterate, CPU utilization is a moot point with audio hardware.  But what is a point to stress, though, is system audio latency.  That equates to many of the audio issues people complain about, and was the biggest sole contributor to the X-Fi snap/crackle/pop issue.  The cards were working to fast for the system to keep up with.

When your audio hardware processes too fast, you end up with audio clipping as it has to continue to buffer the audio while waiting on the system; when it moves to slow, you end up with clipping as well, as the audio isn't done being processed before the DSPs and system start loading up more work.

It's a matter of fine tuning that balance - ASUS, Auzen, HT, and everyone else running C-Media chipsets don't have that hard of a time, as the chipset can only work but so fast; they work great with the standard PCI BUS.  It's very easy to design within those parameters, as PCI has been an industry standard for over 10 years now.  Even still, with the newer PCIE cards, they still must use a bridge chip, which for the most part slows the BUS stream down for the audio chipset.

Remember back when audio cards finally started moving from ISA to PCI?  How many issues cropped up with the new PCI hardware?  The cards were working too slow for the faster BUS, and the easiest fix many times was to shorten the PCI latency of the installed slot. 4-5 years later and it wasn't a concern anymore, as the PCB components on audio cards were capable of working faster.

But, in 2005 with the release of the X-Fi line-up, we were running into the opposite issue - the APU works too fast for the PCI BUS, which lead to a lot of audio issues.  The typical fix here was to increase the PCI latency to allow the card more time to the BUS; but with so many mass-produced systems, not everyone had the ability (or the know-how) to do so; so the cards had to be revised with a new BIOS that forced the APU to work slower, which eliminated a lot of issues in most systems.  

It's not about the CPU or BUS utilization, but about the card latencies - and when it boils down to a competitive edge for gaming, it's hard to beat out 65,000+ software voices being processed at any given time.  That can spell the difference whether you hear your opponent ages before they've snuck up on you, or after you've handed them the frag.



Again, I'm not saying the Xonars are bad cards - again, far from it!  They are very reputable cards for their price segment.  They beat out the X-Fi's in audio quality definitely, but when it comes to processing performance, the X-Fi's hand the Xonar's their ass.

For the most part, every company on the market offers better audio quality than the X-Fi's (except for the Elite Pro and Titanium), but none of them can truly compete on a hardware level.



As to the X-Meridians, Xonars, Preludes, Barracudas, Infernos and all the other high-end audio cards . . . yes, there are countless threads on the internet of people modding these as well looking for the best output quality possible.

The biggest mods, though, typically involve swapping out the capacitors.  Sure, the Xonar and Prelude use better quailty capacitors, but all solid states are not ideal for audio cards; especially for filtering audio output channels.  In this sense, all the high-end cards have followed the same stoopid route that Creative have of slapping the same type and brand of capacitor for every circuit on the board.  In that sense, none of the other manufacturers are better than Creative as they're making the same mistake.

Sure, they use better DACs, ADCs, OPAMPs, VRMs and other chip components compared t the X-Fi lineup . . . but the sources these chips influence and change will always be seriously hampered by the capacitors found on the circuits.


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## trodas (Jul 15, 2008)

*Ketxxx* - 





> nobody should spend £200+ on a soundcard then have to recap the entire PCB to be absolutely sure no problems with it will arise



Well, I did 



> Xonar D2X, I've just seen some reasonably detailed pics, and things like solid state capacitors are never a bad thing



It is, when come to audio. Polymers are horrible for audio. No caps or polyruetane roll ones is the best choice.


*imperialreign* - 





> Xonar D2 - LM4562 for front channels; TI R4580I for all others
> Xonar D2X - LM4562 for front channels; TI R4580I for all others
> Xonar DX - TI R4580I for front channels; TI 5532 for all others



Mediocre opamps. LM4562 give a lot of details, but are too sharp and too RFI picky... These 5532 are solid performer, but still nowhere near AD8599 quality. I did not want that card


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## Ketxxx (Jul 16, 2008)

Cant agree on that. Doesn't matter what part is used weather its one from a range of opamps or electrolyite caps or something else, each has its strengths and weaknesses. The key is finding a decent balance, and Asus have done that. The Xonar is a quality audio card with that balance between producing great results and longetivity thats provided with the solid state caps.


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## Mussels (Jul 16, 2008)

not to mention all the auzen cards are socketed, so you can replace the opamps without soldering (and without trashing the warranty, i believe)


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## imperialreign (Jul 16, 2008)

Mussels said:


> not to mention all the auzen cards are socketed, so you can replace the opamps without soldering (and without trashing the warranty, i believe)



100% correct; although, the best OPAMPs don't come in a DIP fashion; but, there are still some superb choices out there . . .

and for those Auzen owners who aren't the most keen on actual PCB components, Auzentech even goes the extra length by providing quite a bit of information on OPAMPs in general, as well as even giving a list of OPAMPs you can purchase directly from them (so you know they'll work . . . or at least fit the socket ).   http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/opamp.php


Auzentech is still hands down the cream of the crop for premier audio cards, no matter what audio processing setup they've used - either the C-Media chipsets or an X-Fi APU.

If you're looking for the best audio hardware, coupled with the best sound quality, and outstanding customer and technical support and service, they are definitely the way to go.  Hell, you even have your choice if you want to purchase a fully functional X-Fi (no Creative drivers! ) that even includes Dolby encoding capabilities (unlike Creative's line-up).


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## Mussels (Jul 16, 2008)

auzen just have more reliable drivers. that alone makes them better.

with creative (audigy 4 in lan rig) i've ran into:
*features cut back/removed
*crackling audio (still happens to this day)
*BSOD's (less common, but mostly related to the fact A4 owners dont get any software in vista)
*useless mic port (its too quiet, and turning up the volume/using boost results in nasty static)

with my auzen... nothing. i enable dolby encoding, plug the speakers in and dont touch it. its never crashed or bugged out on me, ever (and i have an older model too)


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## imperialreign (Jul 16, 2008)

which I give Auzen a superb, well-deserved  for

hell, even their X-Fi equiped models run flawlessly; even more amazing, Creative supply them the APU drivers!


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## trodas (Jul 16, 2008)

*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with LM4562 opamps*
---------------------------------------------------------------
L: -190mV DC, 10mV AC
R: -174mV DC, 10.2mV AC
RL: -210.2mV DC, 10.1mV AC
RR: -204.7mV DC, 10mV AC
CENTER: -209.5mV DC, 10mV AC
SW: -231.9mV DC, 10.2mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with AD8599 opamps*
---------------------------------------------------------------
L: -219mV DC, 9.5mV AC
R: -205mV DC, 9.8mV AC
RL: -209mV DC, 9.7mV AC
RR: -205mV DC, 9.3mV AC
CENTER: -210mV DC, 9.6mV AC
SW: -232mV DC, 9.7mV AC


Conclusion - X-Fi opamps stage design does produce the -200mV DC offset. That probably can be cured by just increasing the positive opamps supply voltage from 5V to 5.2 or 5.4V ...


*Ketxxx* - 





> Cant agree on that.



Not to worry, me neither. Polymer caps is great for high-frequency voltage filtering (just check their frequency response curves, for christ sake!) while using them for anything getting close to audio is UNFORGIVABLE mistake that completely erase any filtering in low-frequency, hence the strong bass line kill the quality effectively.
You can't measure that on the RMAA, to show this problem you need the DAC/opamps output a loud bass line and then the polymers crumble and kill the voltage filtering = the card output get much less that satisfactory.

Just because todays there are some kind of "hype" about polymers does not mean that they are usefull for everything. They have a very strict usability around 200 - 500kHz, and that it is.

The key to understand this problem is thing called ripple rating coeficient. It basicaly says what multiplier has to be applied on the rated ripple for different frequencies. Nothing show this better that this table:

Samxon X-con URL polymers: *120Hz = 0.05*; 1kHz = 0.30; 10kHz = 0.70; 100kHz = 1.00
Samxon elyctrolyte GA caps: *120Hz  = 0.50*; 1kHz = 0.80; 10kHz = 0.90; 100kHz = 1.00

The specs are very much the same as with all other polymers - even spoken - the better polymers, the worser they run at low audio frequency.

Hence polymers are, once again, an unforgivable fault and you can dance around this all the way you want, it is just an unforgivable serious mistake made for the marketing crap and stupid people around here...



> Doesn't matter what part is used...



Ehm, sorry? Then what are we talking about there, lol? 


*Mussels* - 





> not to mention all the auzen cards are socketed, so you can replace the opamps without soldering



True, but the best suited opamp (gotta take the input sensitivity into account too!) is made with the SOIC NARROW version only, so this in kinda useless then... sadly. Yet you still can exchange the opamps for something better and less general-use-like like the 5533 ones are.
They are steady performers, don't get me wrong, but they just aren't real audio grade opamps. And the LM4562 are too much picky and hi-frequency and sharpness like... So, not good.



> *crackling audio (still happens to this day)



Normal thing with bad caps.


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## Mussels (Jul 16, 2008)

no the crackling audio is software related. for example, supreme commander works in 2.0 or 5.1 on the auzentech just fine, but the creative card crackles nasty like when in 5.1 mode. in 2.0 the problem doesnt happen (and its over ALL channels, so its not just the rear outputs doing it)


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## lokonsky (Jul 16, 2008)

trodas said:


> Conclusion - X-Fi opamps stage design does produce the -200mV DC offset. That probably can be cured by just increasing the positive opamps supply voltage from 5V to 5.2 or 5.4V ...


Hi trodas ...i'm so interest with your Great work...
How you increase opamp supply voltage?


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## trodas (Jul 16, 2008)

*Mussels* - none of what you say contradict my statement that this IS about caps. This is exactly how bad caps HW behave... and only in multichannel mode? Exactly why this is caused by bad caps. Multichannel = way more load on the caps... Don't you get it?

*lokonsky* - Easy. Check out how the L7805 regulate the voltage. The IO manage the 5V difference between the output and common ground, usually connected to the ground. So, to bump the output voltage, you just have to add a resistor between the common ground and the ground  That one, that has like 0.2V lost on it with the given current  Easy.
But that is lame.
Correct way is use TWO resistors and create a voltage divider on the output of the L7805 chip that feed the required 0.2V to the common ground and you got your 5.2V on the opamps witch might (or might not) cure the -200mV offset.


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## imperialreign (Jul 16, 2008)

final testing with the AD8599 OPAMPs with copper heatsinks installed over them to partially act as an EMI shield;



AD8599 with no HS:









and with a HS:








negligible difference, unlike running similar tests with the LM4562s.  TBH, there's no difference even noteworthy enough to bring to attention.

Although, the AD8599 _without_ using any form of shielding still produce better results than LM4562 _with_ shielding.


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## lokonsky (Jul 17, 2008)

trodas said:


> Correct way is use TWO resistors and create a voltage divider on the output of the L7805 chip that feed the required 0.2V to the common ground and you got your 5.2V on the opamps witch might (or might not) cure the -200mV offset.


So if 5.2V not cure the DC offset, a coupling capacitor must be installed then...


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## trodas (Aug 14, 2008)

Who says so? DC offset can be neutralized in the input amplifier caps - and there is usually way more space, so a proper polypropylen caps can be used there, to the great benefit for the sound!



*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with original UK X-Fi, no heatsink and L+R channel NJM4556 opamp, rest NJM4558 opamps*
---------------------------------------------------------------
L: 29.9mV DC, 9.8mV AC
R: 29.6mV DC, 9.8mV AC
RL: 0mV DC, 9.8mV AC
RR: 0mV DC, 9.8mV AC
CENTER: 0.2mV DC, 9.6mV AC
SW: 0.2mV DC, 9.7mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring original UK X-Fi, shorted DAC - opamps caps*
---------------------------------------------------------------
L: -179.4mV DC, 9.8mV AC
R: -204.5mV DC, 9.8mV AC
RL: -222.9mV DC, 9.8mV AC
RR: -232.2mV DC, 9.8mV AC
CENTER: -225.2mV DC, 9.6mV AC
SW: -238.9mV DC, 9.7mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with LM4562 opamps*
---------------------------------------------------------------
L: -190mV DC, 10mV AC
R: -174mV DC, 10.2mV AC
RL: -210.2mV DC, 10.1mV AC
RR: -204.7mV DC, 10mV AC
CENTER: -209.5mV DC, 10mV AC
SW: -231.9mV DC, 10.2mV AC


*X-Fi output DC offset measuring with AD8599 opamps*
---------------------------------------------------------------
L: -219mV DC, 9.5mV AC
R: -205mV DC, 9.8mV AC
RL: -209mV DC, 9.7mV AC
RR: -205mV DC, 9.3mV AC
CENTER: -210mV DC, 9.6mV AC
SW: -232mV DC, 9.7mV AC


A word about the DC offset.



> maybe it's not safe to remove the coupling capacitors



Maybe it is not safe to live on Earth 
Got my point?
Nothing is safe, ever. However the X-Fi did not have by default ANY cap between the opamps output and the jacks. So...

And the main point is, that the DC offset is neutralized on the amplifier input coupling caps. So nothing to worry about.

Unless you have custom amp with stripped input coupling caps, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. It can only make your sound nicer and more detailed.

In some cases the input caps in the amplifier aren't even need to be there, depending on the amp input opamps and their gain versus voltage. If the gain is low and voltages high, the DC offset is just amplified like the rest of the signal and that it is. No clipping happen then. But it is wise to let one last coupling cap to have in the input of power amplifier... if you did not want end up with like 16V DC offset on the speakers :tongue:


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## trodas (Aug 18, 2008)

My modification of X-Fi Fatal1ty, UK edition w/o heatsink on main chip and with caps wires bent to sides and then soldered from the bottom of the PCB for user Tez, Head-Fi forum:














































...and his card is working just great!


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## trodas (Aug 18, 2008)

If you remove all the eight audio caps, you won't be able to do a RMAA measuring using loopback cable, since the input jack will not work anymore. So, to make it work, you gotta add a C48 and C49 caps. The original are bipolar 4.7uF 50V Jamicons. I used audio quality polypropylene film caps to replace them, 4.7uF 63V MKT ones (Digi-key order number 495-1131-ND ):






And then I can make my first RMAA test: http://ax2.old-cans.com/X-Fi Fatality MKT caps 24_48.htm

It is much better that trying to pass the -200mV DC offset right back to the input: http://ax2.old-cans.com/X-Fi Fatality NOCAPS.htm

 ...


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