# I7 9750h Undervolting



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

I'm new to all this, just bought my first laptop 6 months ago, overall satisfied with its performance but I noticed that the cpu temperature was always too high when gaming(94c) and it cause throttling. I did some research and I found out that undervolting can reduce temperature so I did it. At first I only was able to do - 140 for both core and cache and - 100 for intel gpu. After that, I decided to change those numbers around and I put the Intel gpu back to 0 and let cache remain at - 125. By that, I managed to get my core to - 500. I notice the more I undervolt the Max there I guess it's the power goes up. It is stable during gaming and the more I undervolt the core the lower the temperature. It is safe right?


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> let cache remain at - 125


Most people have found that the core offset should be set -100 mV more than the cache. That means if the cache is set to an offset of -125 mV, the best voltage for the core should be approximately -225 mV.

You can set the core to -300 mV or -500 mV or -1000 mV but it will not change performance or temperatures. At some point between -200 mV and -300 mV for the core, there will be no further improvement. 

Do some testing with Cinebench R20. Do a test at -125 mV cache and -200 mV core. Now keep increasing the core in steps of -25 mV. When you get up to -300 mV, keep testing but go in steps of -100 mV. Where do you get your best results and temperatures? Post some pictures of your Cinebench R20 results at different core offset voltages.









						MAXON Cinebench (R20.0) Download
					

CINEBENCH is a real-world cross platform test suite that evaluates your computer's performance capabilities. CINEBENCH is based on MAXON's award-winn




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> Most people have found that the core offset should be set -100 mV more than the cache. That means if the cache is set to an offset of -125 mV, the best voltage for the core should be approximately -225 mV.
> 
> You can set the core to -300 mV or -500 mV or -1000 mV but it will not change performance or temperatures. At some point between -200 mV and -300 mV for the core, there will be no further improvement.
> 
> ...


Ahh I see, no wonder I felt like the temperature haven't change since it pass like - 400. I did run ts bench for each value before this and I notice there's one value with the best time unfortunately I did not save the numbers. Is there any point to test value after - 500? Since you did mention there's no improvement after a certain value.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> Is there any point to test value after - 500?


I would stop testing at -250 mV. Probably -225 mV is best. No one ever sees improvement beyond -250 mV. Do some more testing some day when you are bored.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> I would stop testing at -250 mV. Probably -225 mV is best. No one ever sees improvement beyond -250 mV. Do some more testing some day when you are bored.


The score is so random lol, my best score is 2415 at - 125 cache, - 250 core. It looks like it's the best already. My thing is I feel like my laptop cooling is just bad, I have to clock down to 3.4ghz so that heavy cpu game will not thermal throttle, 3.5ghz will cause throttling some state during the game. Other apps are at fine temperature tho, like CineBench 3.5ghz is at max 77c. Any ways to solve it?

Edit:Tried Heaven Benchmark too - 125 cache and - 250 core gives the best results as well.


----------



## rruff (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> My thing is I feel like my laptop cooling is just bad, I have to clock down to 3.4ghz so that heavy cpu game will not thermal throttle, 3.5ghz will cause throttling some state during the game.


It's possible that your hot GPU is affecting the CPU. Also, maybe your paste is bad. Are you running both fans at max speed while gaming?

That's a low Cinebench 20 score. I'm getting >3300 with a 10750H. https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ts-i7-10750h-rtx-2060-msi-raider-ge75.279412/

I'd suggest running HWinfo and monitor the CPU and GPU while gaming and running benchmarks and see what is really going on.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> my best score is 2415


That is a poor score for a 6 core CPU in Cinebench R20. When the test is running, open Limit Reasons and find out if your CPU is throttling. It must be power limit throttling. Check the FIVR Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits box and post some more screenshots if you need help.

If you are going to use HWiNFO, do not use Limit Reasons. HWiNFO clears the limit reasons data out of the CPU which interferes with ThrottleStop reporting this data correctly.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

rruff said:


> It's possible that your hot GPU is affecting the CPU. Also, maybe your paste is bad. Are you running both fans at max speed while gaming?
> 
> That's a low Cinebench 20 score. I'm getting >3300 with a 10750H. https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ts-i7-10750h-rtx-2060-msi-raider-ge75.279412/
> 
> I'd suggest running HWinfo and monitor the CPU and GPU while gaming and running benchmarks and see what is really going on.


My CPU is I7 9750h. My GPU is lower temperature than my CPU all the time, Gtx1660ti(Max temperature 80c)and yes I'm running both fans at max speed during gaming.



unclewebb said:


> That is a poor score for a 6 core CPU in Cinebench R20. When the test is running, open Limit Reasons and find out if your CPU is throttling. It must be power limit throttling. Check the FIVR Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits box and post some more screenshots if you need help.


Should I tune back up the clocks? Cuz I did capped it at 3.5ghz maybe that's why it's low score, if I didn't do that my temperature would just rise to 94c very quickly and it will cause throttling.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> CPU is I7 9750h


If you are limiting your CPU speed then that helps explain why your performance is much lower compared to other computers with the 9750H. You need to improve your cooling to get maximum performance without thermal throttling or power limit throttling.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

There, I checked the Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limit and reset the clocks back to default. Here are my results and limit reasons.



unclewebb said:


> If you are limiting your CPU speed then that helps explain why your performance is much lower compared to other computers with the 9750H. You need to improve your cooling to get maximum performance without thermal throttling or power limit throttling.


Does temperature affects power limit? Or there is no other way if power limit is the throttling reason?
*I notice the temperature is not much different with 3.5ghz(77c), now 4.0ghz if all cores are running(78c).


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Your screenshot shows power limit throttling (PL1 PL2), not thermal throttling. Your temperatures are great. What are your power limits set to in the TPL window? Did you try increasing these limits, PL1 and PL2?


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> Your screenshot shows power limit throttling, not thermal throttling. Your temperatures are great. What are your power limits set to in the TPL window? Did you try increasing these limits, PL1 and PL2?


My default is 45w at PL1 and 56w and PL2 at 56w. Is it safe to go pass it?


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> Is it safe


It is up to you. Everyone else with this CPU that wants maximum performance increases both turbo power limits. Some use PL1=70W and PL2=90W. It depends on what your cooling can handle. Maybe first try PL1=60W and PL2=70W. Watch ThrottleStop while Cinebench is running. What does ThrottleStop report for power consumption when PL1 and PL2 turn red in Limit Reasons.

Your cooling looks great. It can handle some more power without thermal throttling. With good cooling and unlocked power limits, the 9750H should score over 3000 points in R20.

In the Options window check to see what PROCHOT Offset is set to. It appears to be set to 8 which forces the CPU to start thermal throttling too soon. Setting this to 3 is a better compromise. It is only possible to change this value if ThrottleStop does not show a Lock icon near this setting. If PROCHOT Offset is locked by the BIOS, it cannot be changed.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> It is up to you. Everyone else with this CPU that wants maximum performance increases both turbo power limits. Some use PL1=70W and PL2=90W. It depends on what your cooling can handle. Maybe first try PL1=60W and PL2=70W. Watch ThrottleStop while Cinebench is running. What does ThrottleStop report for power consumption when PL1 and PL2 turn red in Limit Reasons.


I put 60w and 70w as you told and ran a CineBench the Power limit is keep on popping out in red colour. There is something I don't understand though, my battery there shows 55.03Wh, when I change the power limits in Throttlestop it can go higher?

Unfortunately there is a lock beside the Lock PROCHOT Offset options so I can't change the offset.


----------



## rruff (Mar 12, 2021)

Power will be limited to what you set unless it hits the temperature or max frequency first. I'd set both to 75W and see if you can max out the frequency before hitting the temperature limit. That is ideal.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Do not check Lock PROCHOT Offset and do not check PROCHOT Offset. Press OK, exit ThrottleStop and shut down your computer. When you start your computer, look in the Options window and see if the Lock icon is still there. It is common for the BIOS to lock this setting but I am not sure if the BIOS locked this or maybe you accidentally locked this.

The power limits control how much turbo boost your CPU uses. It controls how fast your CPU runs. This has nothing to do with the battery. Changing the power limits in ThrottleStop does not change the power of your battery in any way.



Zheng Kit said:


> Power limit is keep on popping out in red colour


When PL2 is red, what does ThrottleStop show for power consumption?
When PL1 is red, what does ThrottleStop show for power consumption?

Some laptops set their own power limits internally so they cannot be changed by using ThrottleStop. If you increase the PL1 limit to 60W and your CPU still PL1 throttles at 45W then your computer is setting its own power limits and you cannot override these limits by using ThrottleStop.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> Do not check Lock PROCHOT Offset and do not check PROCHOT Offset. Press OK, exit ThrottleStop and shut down your computer. When you start your computer, look in the Options window and see if the Lock icon is still there. It is common for the BIOS to lock this setting but I am not sure if the BIOS locked this or maybe you accidentally locked this.
> 
> Some laptops set their own power limits internally so they cannot be changed by using ThrottleStop. If you increase the PL1 limit to 60W and your CPU still PL1 throttles at 45W then your computer is setting its own power limits and you cannot override these limits by using ThrottleStop.


The PROCHOT is still locked and the power limit turns red when it reached the default power limit which is 45w at PL1 and 56.2w at PL2. So is this as far as I can go already?


----------



## rruff (Mar 12, 2021)

Have you established that your undervolt is working? That is shown on the FIVR page in the upper right.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

rruff said:


> Have you established that your undervolt is working? That is shown on the FIVR page in the upper right.


Here, take a look.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

rruff said:


> your undervolt is working?


That was shown in the first picture he posted. When the undervolt is not working, the FIVR monitoring table will show a column of +0.0000 in the Offset column. It will also show Locked.
TS 9.3 makes this even more obvious.








Zheng Kit said:


> 45w at PL1 and 56.2w at PL2


If you have set the power limits high in ThrottleStop and you are still being limited to 45W then that is as far as you can go.
What laptop model do you have? Intel recommends that PL1 be set equal to the TDP (45W) and PL2 be set 25% higher, 45W + 25% = 56.25W so the power limits are hard locked to the default values.


----------



## rruff (Mar 12, 2021)

Looks like it.

Now see if you can lower your power limits in TS, since you are complaining of high temperatures. On mine performance was better at 35W undervolted than it was at 45W with stock voltages.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

rruff said:


> high temperatures


His temperatures look great. When gaming they might go higher with the GPU heating up the chassis. I think the undervolt has already helped with lowering the temperatures.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

rruff said:


> Looks like it.
> 
> Now see if you can lower your power limits in TS, since you are complaining of high temperatures. On mine performance was better at 35W undervolted than it was at 45W with stock voltages.


I'm already facing power limit throttle now, lowering it would make it worst I thought? If CineBench is very heavy on CPU but the temps are 80c, why some games go even higher temperature? 94c on CPU but my GPU is at around 80c.



unclewebb said:


> His temperatures look great. When gaming they might go higher with the GPU heating up the chassis. I think the undervolt has already helped with lowering the temperatures.
> 
> View attachment 192137


If there is no way around the power limit, and it is facing power limit throttling now, should I lower back the clocks a bit until the power limit throttling does not shows up?

And wow so basically means that this laptop was not provided with sufficient power limit for it to run at boost clocks.


----------



## rruff (Mar 12, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> I'm already facing power limit throttle now, lowering it would make it worst I thought? If CineBench is very heavy on CPU but the temps are 80c, why some games go even higher temperature? 94c on CPU but my GPU is at around 80c.


Power throttling is not a problem. That is a normal and safe limiter. If you are always hot though (95C) that could cause issues long term. But maybe not. Like I said earlier, ideally you'd like to hit neither and run at max frequency forever, but your cooling doesn't allow that when the GPU is running hard. That isn't weird on a laptop. BTW, GPUs have a lower temperature limit than CPUs so your GPU isn't exactly running "cool" at 80C; it might be temperature throttling or close. You could run Afterburner and UV that as well and get better performance.

On my laptop they do not influence each other much at all, but maybe your heatpipes are joined together to a larger extent? So the GPU heat is causing your CPU to run hot.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

The CPU will always be like 10 to 15c above GPU when I'm gaming. Minecraft is not that heavy so it is cooler, Red Dead Redemption 2 running at 4.0ghz at max 89c, I think undervolt does helped lower down the temperature. Before this I have to go 3.5ghz so that it won't get thermal throttle at 94c.



rruff said:


> Power throttling is not a problem. That is a normal and safe limiter. If you are always hot though (95C) that could cause issues long term. But maybe not. Like I said earlier, ideally you'd like to hit neither and run at max frequency forever, but your cooling doesn't allow that when the GPU is running hard. That isn't weird on a laptop. BTW, GPUs have a lower temperature limit than CPUs so your GPU isn't exactly running "cool" at 80C; it might be temperature throttling or close. You could run Afterburner and UV that as well and get better performance.
> 
> On my laptop they do not influence each other much at all, but maybe your heatpipes are joined together to a larger extent? So the GPU heat is causing your CPU to run hot.


Wait so u mean I might be facing power limit at 45w, if I lower it to 35w I might have a chance to still run at max speed without power limitting?

And yeah I do feel like my GPU affects my CPU temperatures a little. For GPU I did try undervolt it before, I'm not sure why but when I do the undervolt with the graph for example I put the straight line value to 1800mhz, when I press the tick and I go back to see the graph, the number goes up by itself for example like 1850mhz. I kept repeating but it keeps doing the same thing.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

Your laptop set the power limits to their default setting, 45W and 56W. There is nothing wrong with that. Some laptops leave these power limits unlocked so you can set them much higher and get better performance. The next time you buy a laptop, now you know what to check for. Unlocked power limits and good cooling are best for people that like maximum performance.

When the GPU is active when gaming, it makes sense that your entire laptop is going to heat up more. The CPU will run hotter.



Zheng Kit said:


> Red Dead Redemption 2 running at 4.0ghz at max 89c


That sounds great. Your undervolt allows your CPU to run faster without overheating. Many games do not need a fast CPU. Some people like to slow their CPU down so it runs cooler while playing some games.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> That sounds great. Your undervolt allows your CPU to run faster without overheating. Many games do not need a fast CPU. Some people like to slow their CPU down so it runs cooler while playing some games.


Yeah I will definitely look out for the power limit and cooling next time haha. It is my first ever pc since primary school using it during computer class, so when I buy this pc I ask for opinions from others, done some research as well. I do play game so my friends suggest 1660ti instead of 1650. For CPU I thought since I'm doing school work as well having an I7 would be better than I5. Acer Predator Helios 300 has similar specs with my pc but it is more expensive. So at last I chose this Acer Nitro 5. After buying it then only I starting to learn more about pc. I'm actually very interested in pc and my current course is software engineering. Thanks a lot for helping me. 

By the way, so I'm good with the undervolting? Cuz my cache actually can go even more, but I don't know if I should keep going or stay at -125.


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 12, 2021)

You can try setting the cache to -130 mV or -135 mV. Most 9750H are not 100% stable when the cache offset voltage is much higher than -125 mV. If you try to go higher and your computer crashes then you know that you have gone too far.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 12, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> You can try setting the cache to -130 mV or -135 mV. Most 9750H are not 100% stable when the cache offset voltage is much higher than -125 mV. If you try to go higher and your computer crashes then you know that you have gone too far.


Alright thanks. I will try it later.


----------



## rruff (Mar 13, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> Wait so u mean I might be facing power limit at 45w, if I lower it to 35w I might have a chance to still run at max speed without power limitting?


No. It will be slower at 35W. But it might be just as fast as it was at stock voltage and 45W, and it would run cooler.

I saw this in a review of your machine. The heat pipes are very much shared, so the CPU and GPU greatly affect each other. If you are temperature throttling it's a juggling act then, to see if reducing CPU power lets your GPU run faster. It sounds like your CPU at 45W is just flirting with 95C (which is probably its limit), and your GPU at 80W and ~80C is not thermal throttling, so reducing power limits isn't necessary... just if you wish to run cooler.







I suggest using Afterburner on your GPU in order to get better FPS/watt. 80W will still be its limit, but if you reduce voltage you can run at a higher frequency. You can choose to increase performance or reduce the thermal load. On mine, increasing the Vram clock was the most effective (best FPS/watt). You can also make several profiles and switch between them with hotkeys.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> I suggest using Afterburner on your GPU in order to get better FPS/watt. 80W will still be its limit, but if you reduce voltage you can run at a higher frequency. You can choose to increase performance or reduce the thermal load. On mine, increasing the Vram clock was the most effective (best FPS/watt). You can also make several profiles and switch between them with hotkeys.


I used Afterburner to increase my memory clock already by +700, if you see my gameplay screenshots it is running at 6701, the stock is 6000mhz. For the clock speed, I have mentioned on above as well I'm not sure why when I set the straight line in the graph, for example 1800mhz@0.950v, after I press the tick and I go back into the graph, the straight line moves up, for example to 1850mhz at the same voltage.

For some reason, I dont think I can undervolt my GPU, if I undevolt it, it can't go pass 1800mhz. Even if I put it 1800mhz at 0.925v, superposition will show it running at around 1770mhz. Without touching the graph it can go 1840mhz for sometimes.

Without undervolt&+800mhz memory clock results.


----------



## rruff (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm sorry! I need to read better... you did post that information earlier.

I was running the Superposition benchmark at 4K Opt, but I ran it with your settings to compare; got a 4440 vs your 3253, so 36% better. At the same power 1660Ti and 2060 laptop GPUs are very close, so I'd expect mine to run a bit faster at 115W (10-15%) but not nearly that much. Unless you have a 65W MaxQ GPU?

I'm curious about your CPU performance after UV as well. There should be very little difference between a 9750H and 10750H. In this test they got only a 2% improvement in multicore Cinebench 20: https://www.techspot.com/review/2022-intel-core-i7-10750h-vs-9750h/
And yet when I run that benchmark with your power limits (45W and 56W) I get a score of 2991, vs the 2569 you got... and you have a greater UV. 

I'd suggest trying both benchmarks again while having HWinfo running to see what the frequencies and power are on your CPU and GPU.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> I'm sorry! I need to read better... you did post that information earlier.
> 
> I was running the Superposition benchmark at 4K Opt, but I ran it with your settings to compare; got a 4440 vs your 3253, so 36% better. At the same power 1660Ti and 2060 laptop GPUs are very close, so I'd expect mine to run a bit faster at 115W (10-15%) but not nearly that much. Unless you have a 65W MaxQ GPU?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I ran into power limit issues again, I do benchmark with gpu-z running and I saw perf cap reason power pop out a few times. I tried a few times and got the line 1800mhz@0.8v I can't go any further with the clock speed even tho at some game I can reach 1915mhz. When I do benchmark, it still runs at 1815mhz for awhile only it drop back to 1800mhz not sure why it auto boost(same voltage 0.8v). My temperature can handle 1900mhz I'm pretty sure but power limit stops me.

Question: Does game use less power? It seems like benchmark prefer to runs at lower clock, if I don't undervolt it, it will run all the way with 1785mhz. The temperature is like 71c only. But when gaming it goes higher(1850-1900mhz), seems weird to me. Heaven benchmark seems to have a bug there, it shows I'm running at 2100mhz instead of 1785mhz.

My cpu is running at 4.0ghz at 6 core active, yours is 4.5ghz at 6 core active right? And you don't have power limit throttling issue too so maybe that's why mine is a lot lower. If my power limit allows I should be able to make 6 core running at 4.5ghz with my temperature maybe at 90c?


----------



## rruff (Mar 13, 2021)

Power limiting is ok. With stock voltage it will be hitting that constantly. On mine I dropped the voltage down enough that it rarely hits it, but it would run a bit faster if I increased voltage and clocks a little so that it would be power limited more often. *Your goal is to maximize performance within your power limit, not avoid reaching it.* To do this, increase your Vram speed as much as you can while still being stable with no artifacts. I bumped mine up 1250MHz, YMMV... but make it as high as you can. Then modify the voltage/frequency curves until you are also stable and getting max scores/FPS.

Yes, the Heaven clock on the screen isn't right. But you can run HWinfo and see it correctly. Plus you can run Heaven windowed which makes it easier to see what is happening while running (can view your monitors).

If your v/f curve is maxed at 1800MHz in Afterburner, you should not see a value higher than this ever. Is AB running, and the correct profile loaded? In the figure I posted you can see I'm getting a max of .925V and 1935MHz. This is my AB curve. It can go lower but not higher. You need to monitor voltage and frequency to see what's actually happening. Max power in that run was 112.6 W so I never hit the power limit. If I wanted to optimize performance for that specific bench, I'd definitely run at higher v/f.

Also did you do a scan in AB and are using that curve as your starting point for mods?


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> Power limiting is ok. With stock voltage it will be hitting that constantly. On mine I dropped the voltage down enough that it rarely hits it, but it would run a bit faster if I increased voltage and clocks a little so that it would be power limited more often. *Your goal is to maximize performance within your power limit, not avoid reaching it.* To do this, increase your Vram speed as much as you can while still being stable with no artifacts. I bumped mine up 1250MHz, YMMV... but make it as high as you can. Then modify the voltage/frequency curves until you are also stable and getting max scores/FPS.
> 
> If your v/f curve is maxed at 1800MHz in Afterburner, you should not see a value higher than this ever. Is AB running, and the correct profile loaded? In the figure I posted you can see I'm getting a max of .925V and 1935MHz. This is my AB curve. It can go lower but not higher. You need to monitor voltage and frequency to see what's actually happening. Max power in that run was 112.6 W so I never hit the power limit. If I wanted to optimize performance for that specific bench, I'd definitely run at higher v/f.
> 
> Also did you do a scan in AB and are using that curve as your starting point for mods?


I found my max vram speed at +750mhz anymore will cause artifacts, so I need to do one scan in Afterburner then only I modify the curve?

There is something I don't understand as well, so does laptop separate the power to cpu and gpu individually? If I lower the power supply to cpu does my gpu get more?


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> 2991, vs the 2569


Intel CPUs do not report measured power consumption. The 45W number is calculated based on an Intel formula. How accurate it is compared to actual power consumption is anyone's guess. The formula being used might have changed between 9th and 10th Gen so I would not use the 45W number to try and compare processors from different generations. Most 8750H and 9750H hit about 2500 in Cinebench R20 when they have a locked 45W power limit. @Zheng Kit's R20 results seem normal.



Zheng Kit said:


> 4.0ghz at 6 core active


That is the maximum for a 9750H. You cannot go higher than the 40 multiplier when 6 cores are active. Higher power limits does not change the maximum turbo ratio limitation. The FIVR Turbo Ratio Limits window shows what the maximum possible multipliers are based on how many cores are active.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> That is the maximum for a 9750H. You cannot go higher than the 40 multiplier when 6 cores are active. Higher power limits does not change the maximum turbo ratio limitation. The FIVR Turbo Ratio Limits window shows what the maximum possible multipliers are based on how many cores are active.


Ooo I see, so I'm running at max speed now, that's good to know. I thought the FIVR can be set to 45 to all when boost it means 4.5ghz all core.


----------



## rruff (Mar 13, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> I found my max vram speed at +750mhz anymore will cause artifacts, so I need to do one scan in Afterburner then only I modify the curve?
> 
> There is something I don't understand as well, so does laptop separate the power to cpu and gpu individually? If I lower the power supply to cpu does my gpu get more?


Do the scan, then save that curve in a profile so you have a good starting point. Then mod that curve and save to a different profile.

I don't believe our laptops trade power between the CPU and GPU... only ones with 3000 series Nvidia. We have set limits for each separately.

Also, I noticed my AB lowering the curve too when checked... closing it and restarting it seemed to fix that.

EDIT: My 6 core max is 4.3GHz but it won't run that fast at 45W. See my HWinfo above to see what I was actually running... 3.7-3.8Ghz at 45W. Unlike yours I can push it up to 4.3Ghz at @69W and stay just under the temperature throttle limit.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> Do the scan, then save that curve in a profile so you have a good starting point. Then mod that curve and save to a different profile.
> 
> Also, I noticed my AB lowering the curve too when checked... closing it and restarting it seemed to fix that.


My curve after doing the scan, any recommendation like what would u do?

Yeah mine is increasing the curve instead.


----------



## rruff (Mar 13, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> Intel CPUs do not report measured power consumption. The 45W number is calculated based on an Intel formula. How accurate it is compared to actual power consumption is anyone's guess. The formula being used might have changed between 9th and 10th Gen so I would not use the 45W number to try and compare processors from different generations. Most 8750H and 9750H hit about 2500 in Cinebench R20 when they have a locked 45W power limit. @Zheng Kit's R20 results seem normal.


At stock mine was ~2600, but the scores I posted for both of us are with UV... should be quite a bit better, yes?

So when I set a 45W limit in TS, this isn't actually 45W? When Intel sets a 45W limit it isn't actually 45W either? If so aren't they at least the same? The monitors read the same value.



Zheng Kit said:


> My curve after doing the scan, any recommendation like what would u do?


First I would run HWinfo while running Heaven windowed to see how everything looks using that curve as it is. I suspect you will get optimal FPS with a voltage much higher than .800. Maybe .925-.950?


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> First I would run HWinfo while running Heaven windowed to see how everything looks using that curve as it is. I suspect you will get optimal FPS with a voltage much higher than .800. Maybe .925-.950?


Here, some screenshots with the curve.

Edit: sorry wrong file, updated


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 13, 2021)

rruff said:


> So when I set a 45W limit in TS, this isn't actually 45W?


It is not measured power consumption. Intel CPUs constantly calculate a number that all monitoring software reports as power consumption. The accuracy of this number is anyone's guess. It can be manipulated by hidden settings in the BIOS. If an MSI laptop and a Dell laptop and a HP laptop all show 45W, that does not mean actual power consumption is the same. It is just a number.

Here is a good example. My 4th Gen laptop is fully loaded running Prime95 so actual power consumption is probably 70W or 80W.






The CPU has been tricked to report an extremely low power consumption number. The CPU is way under the 45W TDP limit so it has no reason to power limit throttle. It finally thermal throttles when it gets too hot but neither PL1 or PL2 power limit throttling are triggered. Intel fixed this bug after the 4th or 5th Gen but there are other bugs and tricks that users or manufacturers can use. In the advanced MSI BIOS, you can go in and change a value called IMON Slope or IMON Offset. This will also screw up the accuracy of the power consumption data that was not accurate to begin with.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 13, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> Here, some screenshots with the curve.
> 
> Edit: sorry wrong file, updated


It has to be at 0.875V, 0.900V the power limit will shows up. In heaven 0.875 seems stable at 1935mhz, I put the value at 1950mhz but it dropped down to 1935mhz. No more power limit pop out.


----------



## rruff (Mar 13, 2021)

You are definitely hitting the 80W limit a lot, and it appears that ~.925V and 1980MHz is about your limit there. Run Heaven fullscreen and see what score you get, then try setting a lower max voltage (.925?) and see how it compares. I'm thinking now that setting a lower voltage (vs using the curve as it is) won't help your FPS much if at all, but it will reduce power and temperature some. Further optimization would be dropping the max voltage a bit (.900?) and then increasing the clock above what the scan gives you until you have issues. 

Hitting the power limit is fine, I think. If you want better thermals you can also make a profiles at lower voltages, but see what gives you the best score/FPS for now.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 14, 2021)

All around this already gave me performance boost. My gpu was not running at its best potential before this, after the scan at AB the clock are more like it. 1900mhz+, before this it was like 1800mhz like that never went above 1850mhz. I'm doing some test now to see the best value to put at.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 15, 2021)

rruff said:


> You are definitely hitting the 80W limit a lot, and it appears that ~.925V and 1980MHz is about your limit there. Run Heaven fullscreen and see what score you get, then try setting a lower max voltage (.925?) and see how it compares. I'm thinking now that setting a lower voltage (vs using the curve as it is) won't help your FPS much if at all, but it will reduce power and temperature some. Further optimization would be dropping the max voltage a bit (.900?) and then increasing the clock above what the scan gives you until you have issues.
> 
> Hitting the power limit is fine, I think. If you want better thermals you can also make a profiles at lower voltages, but see what gives you the best score/FPS for now.


I can do 0.875v@1950mhz at benchmark but when playing game it will crash. I have to put it 1800mhz@0.800v to be stable in game. My best result for Superposition 1080p Extreme is 3439.


----------



## rruff (Mar 15, 2021)

What happens if you use the scan curve results without modification? I did some experiments and that seemed to be as good as anything. It will stay around your max power of 80W, but that's ok. No need to flatten the curve. Let the power limit determine the voltage and frequency.

If you want to try boosting performance further, you can then make minor adjustment to the curve by clicking on the core clock button on the main AB page and using the arrow keys to move the whole curve up a little. This was much easier for setting the max performance profile.

I get 4494 in that benchmark... so 30% faster. I'm baffled. Your clock speeds are fine, but both your CPU and GPU are running quite a bit slower in benchmarks than I'd expect.

EDIT: I did another run using my 2nd profile which is .800V and max of 1650MHz, which averages <80W. Score was 4025, 17% higher than yours.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 15, 2021)

rruff said:


> What happens if you use the scan curve results without modification? I did some experiments and that seemed to be as good as anything. It will stay around your max power of 80W, but that's ok. No need to flatten the curve. Let the power limit determine the voltage and frequency.
> 
> If you want to try boosting performance further, you can then make minor adjustment to the curve by clicking on the core clock button on the main AB page and using the arrow keys to move the whole curve up a little. This was much easier for setting the max performance profile.


The gpu speed can run higher but it is not stable and it would crash in games, so I rather let it be stable at 1800mhz than running it at 1950mhz but always crashing. Cuz technically my base clock is 1500mhz, boost clock is 1770mhz running at 1800mhz is a higher than above already so I'm fine with it.

With or without scan result, the curve will still be same, only stable at 1800mhz@0.8v. Even when I do benchmark as well, the clock does not always follow the curve. Sometimes it would randomly boost 15mhz more or drop 15mhz, that is why the results is not good. I did run a benchmark with the scan curve without any modifications it will run at 2010mhz for sometimes but it drop to around 1765mhz for most of the time.


----------



## rruff (Mar 15, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> With or without scan result, the curve will still be same, only stable at 1800mhz@0.8v. Even when I do benchmark as well, the clock does not always follow the curve. Sometimes it would randomly boost 15mhz more or drop 15mhz, that is why the results is not good. I did run a benchmark with the scan curve without any modifications it will run at 2010mhz for sometimes but it drop to around 1765mhz for most of the time.


Have you established that .800V and 1800Mhz uses 80W? If so I guess you are at the limit.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 15, 2021)

rruff said:


> Have you established that .800V and 1800Mhz uses 80W? If so I guess you are at the limit.


Nope I can do 1950mhz@0.900 without reaching power limit but it is not stable, I think its just too fast clock speed and it can't handle.


----------



## rruff (Mar 15, 2021)

That's strange. Usually the scan curve is conservative and doesn't give you trouble. 

Do you live in the US? What's your budget?


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 15, 2021)

rruff said:


> That's strange. Usually the scan curve is conservative and doesn't give you trouble.
> 
> Do you live in the US? What's your budget?


Not US, I'm from Malaysia. I already choose Predator Helios 300 I7 10870H RTX2060 if I'm able to sell my current one. Other's are too expensive with RTX2060.


----------



## rruff (Mar 15, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> Not US, I'm from Malaysia. I already choose Predator Helios 300 I7 10870H RTX2060 if I'm able to sell my current one. Other's are too expensive with RTX2060.


Whatever you buy, make sure to check if it can be undervolted if it's Intel, and see what the GPU power limit is since you won't be able to change it. 115W is the best.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 15, 2021)

rruff said:


> Whatever you buy, make sure to check if it can be undervolted if it's Intel, and see what the GPU power limit is since you won't be able to change it. 115W is the best.


Yup well if I'm able sell it, I'll definitely check for power limit and all those important stuff. There's a Rtx3060 version of my current model preordering now but I don't the price is worth it, it seems like 30 series card laptops are relatively more expensive in my country. Some 3060 are more expensive than 2070 super.


----------



## rruff (Mar 15, 2021)

If the 3060 has the max power limit (115-130W) it's usually as fast or faster than a 2070S at 115W.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 17, 2021)

rruff said:


> If the 3060 has the max power limit (115-130W) it's usually as fast or faster than a 2070S at 115W.


I think i might wait for a bit longer for 2021 version of laptops to come out first. Hopefully by the time RTX3060 ones will drop price. Since I do find out that my laptop can still sell at a quite good price right now.


----------



## Aspire7Rhondy (Mar 29, 2021)

any update on this thread? OP have you achieved a higher score with different settings, etc?


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 29, 2021)

Aspire7Rhondy said:


> any update on this thread? OP have you achieved a higher score with different settings, etc?


For CPU (i7 9750h), my best is - 0.125 for cache and - 0.250 for core. For GPU(Gtx1660ti) My best stable clock is 1800mhz, result is somewhere similar with my older ones not much improvements. Going for 1905mhz is able to run in some game but not all, red dead 2 would crash 5 mins in game. I did found out that I get better results with connecting to external display(something to do with optimus?I think)


----------



## rruff (Mar 29, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> For CPU (i7 9750h), my best is - 0.125 for cache and - 0.250 for core. For GPU(Gtx1660ti) My best stable clock is 1800mhz, result is somewhere similar with my older ones not much improvements. Going for 1905mhz is able to run in some game but not all, red dead 2 would crash 5 mins in game. I did found out that I get better results with connecting to external display(something to do with optimus?I think)


How much better do you get with an external monitor? Optimus does reduce GPU performance, but I think it's a bigger issue on higher powered systems. Some have the ability to bypass it.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 29, 2021)

rruff said:


> How much better do you get with an external monitor? Optimus does reduce GPU performance, but I think it's a bigger issue on higher powered systems. Some have the ability to bypass it.


Its quite alot of improvements in games, dying light for example I was able to push above 100fps most of the time with external display sometimes even 200fps. While laptop display usually around 80fps, it does feel more choppy compared with external display.



rruff said:


> How much better do you get with an external monitor? Optimus does reduce GPU performance, but I think it's a bigger issue on higher powered systems. Some have the ability to bypass it.


I have a question, when there is multiple device like controller and mouse connected to the laptop, does it affect the power supply to the cpu or gpu?


----------



## rruff (Mar 30, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> I have a question, when there is multiple device like controller and mouse connected to the laptop, does it affect the power supply to the cpu or gpu?


I doubt it. That would only be the case if the power brick was too small... and even then I think it would just drain your battery rather than reduce power delivery.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 30, 2021)

rruff said:


> I doubt it. That would only be the case if the power brick was too small... and even then I think it would just drain your battery rather than reduce power delivery.


Alright thx for the info, I actually bought a laptop stand with 6 fan, it helps my laptop to run cooler, my gpu is running at 67c now and cpu 80c like that, no more thermal throttling issues. But it has to be supplied with power through usb cable so I connected it to my laptop. It means now I have the stand and my controller connected to my laptop but yeah I did not notice any affect on the power draw for both cpu and gpu.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Mar 31, 2021)

rruff said:


> How much better do you get with an external monitor? Optimus does reduce GPU performance, but I think it's a bigger issue on higher powered systems. Some have the ability to bypass it.


When I'm switching around with external display and laptop display I noticed something that I felt like it's important. When I'm playing game with laptop display the gpu usage is always only like 50% and produce like 50fps. So I searched online, my first thought is cpu bottlenecking. But then I try using the external display it will utilise gpu usage to 98-100% and producing like 160fps. Not sure why but that's definitely my main issue of bad gpu performance. Is this what optimus do?


----------



## rruff (Mar 31, 2021)

No, that doesn't sound normal. On a 1660Ti level card I don't think it should be more than a few % difference. 

Run a benchmark like Heaven and see what the difference is.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Apr 1, 2021)

rruff said:


> Run a benchmark like Heaven and see what the difference is.


Here, direct comparison. Both is set to 1770mhz@0.8v and +500mhz mem clock. PC display is not even able to hold on with 1770mhz it drops to 1740mhz mid way.

For Heaven, both gpu usage is  around 100% so there wasn't a big difference, the game has huge fps difference bcs of the usage.


----------



## rruff (Apr 1, 2021)

The 2% difference you got in Heaven is about right for Optimus I think. No idea what is going on in the game.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Apr 1, 2021)

rruff said:


> The 2% difference you got in Heaven is about right for Optimus I think. No idea what is going on in the game.


Is it only able to bypass it with external display?


----------



## rruff (Apr 1, 2021)

Probably. Some laptops allow you to bypass it after a reboot, but most don't.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Apr 1, 2021)

rruff said:


> Probably. Some laptops allow you to bypass it after a reboot, but most don't.


Alright I'll try and find whether I can bypass it.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Jul 26, 2021)

rruff said:


> Probably. Some laptops allow you to bypass it after a reboot, but most don't.


Hey, I know it has been some time but I sold my laptop bought another new one. Ryzen 7 5800h and RTX3070 with 100w power limit. 

The temperature is a lot better than my previous one, but I'm wondering does Throttlestop works with Ryzen CPU?


----------



## unclewebb (Jul 27, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> does Throttlestop works with Ryzen CPU


No. ThrottleStop is only for Intel CPUs.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Jul 27, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> No. ThrottleStop is only for Intel CPUs.


Alright, thanks for the info.


----------



## Zheng Kit (Jul 27, 2021)

I got the highest score of 4286 in CineBench R20 with the new Ryzen 7 5800h, way better score than my previous I7 9750h with only 2596. However, the R7 5800h is hitting 90c instantly when running CineBench R20 but it wasn't too big of an issue since typical daily task usually won't push cpu to full load anyways. When gaming(both fans are set to around 65%), CPU is only around 80c and GPU was running at full load 100w at 70c.

I would say that Acer using the same cooling system design from Predator model for new Nitro 5 model is a smart choice. It solved the thermal issue of Nitro 5 2019's model. 2019 Nitro 5 has shared heatpipes which definitely not enough to cool down the I7 9750h. When both cpu and gpu are running, the cpu will always hit thermal throttle(94c) and it would also bring up the gpu temp. Now with this new cooling system, I don't even need to set my fan to max during gaming in order to keep my laptop cool.

Well I actually got this Nitro 5 R7+Rtx3070 model during sale with only 1200 usd, which is almost same price as the R7+Rtx3060 model.

Just too bad that I can't use throttlestop anymore since it's not available for ryzen cpu, it was doing a good job on keeping my previous laptop's cpu temperature down.


----------



## unclewebb (Jul 28, 2021)

Zheng Kit said:


> 4286 in CineBench R20


That used to be a great score before Intel released their 11th Gen mobile H series. The bar has been raised.










Intel's new mobile CPUs allow limited overclocking (+400 MHz). CPU voltage control works too.

Thanks to MSI for including some enthusiast friendly BIOS options. ThrottleStop helped the cause too.


----------



## marcusandrade (Mar 2, 2022)

unclewebb said:


> I would stop testing at -250 mV. Probably -225 mV is best. No one ever sees improvement beyond -250 mV. Do some more testing some day when you are bored.


A huge thanks, i do a lot of tests, tried a lot of configs, then i find this forum and all you guys

i hit 2601 on cinebench 20

main use is for after affects and premiere.

Running awesome now

attached my configs if it helps

Helios 300 2019

i7-9750H 

I found some oberclock competition profiles, but they are just for hit the clock, wasnt usabld


----------



## unclewebb (Mar 2, 2022)

In the TPL window try checking the MMIO Lock box. This auxiliary PL1 power limit has been set to 45W long term. It is best to only use the MSR power limit. You do not want two different power limits fighting over control of the CPU.

There are a third set of turbo power limits that some manufacturers set to 45W. A score of 2600 in Cinebench is typical for laptops with 9750H processors that are locked to 45W. If your laptop does not use the third set of turbo power limits then checking the MMIO Lock box will probably bring your scores up to the 3000 level. Wouldn't that be fun?  

During a Cinebench run, open Limit Reasons and watch for PL1 throttling. If you see the PL1 box lighting up red, have a look at the power consumption that ThrottleStop is reporting.


----------

