# Factbox: Things you might not know about ballistic bitcoin



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 7, 2017)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ow-about-ballistic-bitcoin-idUSKBN1E12RE?il=0

A lot of interesting information in here.  Examples:
-Every transaction done in Bitcoin costs approximately 215 kwh to process and earlier this year.
-Every transaction costs approximately $7.30 now.
-Chinese exchanged accounted for 90% of the global trading volume until the Chinese government imposed transaction fees dropping it to 20%.


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## R-T-B (Dec 7, 2017)

Transactions cost more than that with the recent price hikes, pretty sure.

Otherwise, none of this is really news to me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Bitcoin is a beached whale at this point, with way more value than utility.  It is just asking for another coin to topple it.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 7, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Transactions cost more than that with the recent price hikes, pretty sure.
> 
> Otherwise, none of this is really news to me.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Bitcoin is a beached whale at this point, with way more value than utility.  It is just asking for another coin to topple it.



Let me know what that coin is when you find out!


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## R-T-B (Dec 7, 2017)

the54thvoid said:


> Let me know what that coin is when you find out!



You'll know for certain about the same time I do, but if I was a betting man: Litecoin


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## Space Lynx (Dec 8, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> You'll know for certain about the same time I do, but if I was a betting man: Litecoin



I'm leaning towards Monero coin, its rising fast lately. and ANON is the future, ANON is the only future. there is no doubt about it.


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## R-T-B (Dec 8, 2017)

lynx29 said:


> I'm leaning towards Monero coin, its rising fast lately. and ANON is the future, ANON is the only future. there is no doubt about it.



I think anon coins bring more trouble than most major investors will ever accept, that and they tend to be computationally expensive like bitcoin (same problems) but it is indeed anyones guess.


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## Ebo (Dec 8, 2017)

Well in my country, we dont really care about crypto courrency.

1. The price for power is too high to run a farm

2. The 5 biggest banks here has refused to deal with any crypto crap at all. That leaves those who has been farming here with a fart in a wind, their digital value is zero worth in real money which I support 110%. 
Those who have crypto money cant use them here at all which I personally think is a really good thing.

3. Crypto money will only create another bobble and it will burst in the end and make another wallstreet crack when people try to cash in before it goes boom, but thats only my personal opinion.


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## R-T-B (Dec 8, 2017)

Ebo said:


> The 5 biggest banks here has refused to deal with any crypto crap at all. That leaves those who has been farming here with a fart in a wind, their digital value is zero worth in real money which I support 110%.



They don't support standard wire transfers?  Because that's what a cashout is.

Hell, if thats true it's still not a "fart in the wind."  Heck, I'll pay these guys 90% of market value all day long.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 8, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> They don't support standard wire transfers?  Because that's what a cashout is.
> 
> Hell, if thats true it's still not a "fart in the wind."  Heck, I'll pay these guys 90% of market value all day long.


I concur , person to person is where it started anyway.

Much talk of the power use of bitcoin but it's nothing literally nothing compared to the total infrastructure and economic cost of fiat currency, forget the easy to call transaction fees what's running bitcoin uses a small percentage of other currency systems ALL in, ie systems , buildings transport and manufacturing and the cost of all those tellers ,clerks and managers driving to their work each day.

Wake up , the environment would win big if fiat died.


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## R0H1T (Dec 8, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I concur , person to person is where it started anyway.
> 
> Much talk of the power use of bitcoin but it's nothing literally nothing compared to the total infrastructure and economic cost of fiat currency, forget the easy to call transaction fees what's running bitcoin uses a small percentage of other currency systems ALL in, ie systems , *buildings transport and manufacturing and the cost of all those tellers ,clerks and managers driving to their work each day*.
> 
> Wake up , *the environment would win big if fiat died*.


Right, so where do you relocate the hundreds of millions already employed in the financial sector & all associated services?

The financial services are important, with a human touch, because we don't want everything fully automated & totally anonymous. Why would anyone want your next door sweet old lady to lose her savings in a BTC flash crash or a *hack*, that cannot be reversed or traced?

How many (corrupt) people do you think have parked their money in BTC or other alt coins? That's a rhetorical question btw because we don't know & we certainly don't want the greedy f**** to take more advantage of lack of regulations concerning BTC et al.

The point is banking sector, excluding hedge fund managers & speculators, is really low on the list of things we can definitely live without, top of the list is undoubtedly politicians & bureaucrats!

As for the last bit you're *probably right*, can't say for sure without the numbers, but it's impossible to fire hundreds of millions of people just like that.


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## R-T-B (Dec 8, 2017)

R0H1T said:


> Right, so where do you relocate the hundreds of millions already employed in the financial sector & all associated services?
> 
> The financial services are important, with a human touch, because we don't want everything fully automated & totally anonymous. Why would anyone want your next door sweet old lady to lose her savings in a BTC flash crash or a *hack*, that cannot be reversed or traced?
> 
> ...



His point was theoretical dude.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 8, 2017)

R0H1T said:


> Right, so where do you relocate the hundreds of millions already employed in the financial sector & all associated services?
> 
> The financial services are important, with a human touch, because we don't want everything fully automated & totally anonymous. Why would anyone want your next door sweet old lady to lose her savings in a BTC flash crash or a *hack*, that cannot be reversed or traced?
> 
> ...


Your starting argument is what would we do with banker's???,.  Madness im sure they'll fanangle an angle bro they ARE working on their own cryptos.

So all in go ask the CEOs ,what Are they going to do when Their cryptos are out and in use, making all our local banks close up on mass and losing jobs.

Im of a mind to save this post as it's irony could be funny in twenty years.

Oh and I have to say im not against fiat currency or for crypto im evolving with my environment is all.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 8, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Much talk of the power use of bitcoin but it's nothing literally nothing compared to the total infrastructure and economic cost of fiat currency, forget the easy to call transaction fees what's running bitcoin uses a small percentage of other currency systems ALL in, ie systems , buildings transport and manufacturing and the cost of all those tellers ,clerks and managers driving to their work each day.


But when you consider a $100 bill costs less than $1 to manufacturer, there's still profit for the Federal Reserve in legal tender, even when you consider all the transportation costs.

Really, crypto currency needs to be compared to the likes of Visa, MasterCard, American Express, Discover, etc.  They have transaction fees too.

In all honesty, the path forward is modernizing the ACH system.  Cryptocurrency has too much baggage.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 8, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> But when you consider a $100 bill costs less than $1 to manufacturer, there's still profit for the Federal Reserve in legal tender, even when you consider all the transportation costs.
> 
> Really, crypto currency needs to be compared to the likes of Visa, MasterCard, American Express, Discover, etc.  They have transaction fees too.
> 
> In all honesty, the path forward is modernizing the ACH system.  Cryptocurrency has too much baggage.


That's the fault with fiat ,toooo easy to print , and transaction cost means naught ,see my point says the TOTAL cost of fiat not your blinkered ,just like visa argument.

Bitcoin is f#@k all like visa , and truly it's comments like that comparison that renders your opinion moot to me.

I expect that's offensive , it is not meant as such to you ,as all in i do respect you per say , but there's little similarity between the two and those who think they're is need to read a few crypto books, Really.

It required a swear word to truly emphasize the point or i wouldn't have used it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 8, 2017)

Fiat is not easy to print.  There's dozens of anti-counterfeiting measures built into them.  The only part of fiat that costs money right now is metal coinage but that cost is easily outweighed by the cloth legal tender.  As I said, the system is self funding by the central bank.  The central bank also strictly controls inflation/deflation which stabilizes the economies attached to it.

Ignoring all the implementation differences, the only difference between cryptocurrency and credit card issuers is that the former is a security while the latter is not.  Issuers work within the confines of the existing commodities (legal tender) that they trade in.  Cryptocurrency, being a security, is why it is extremely volatile.  It is incapable of responding to demand and surplus while also not being tied to a commodity; therefore, it inflates and deflates on a whim.  Cryptocurrency's nature (instability and inflexibility) is an antithesis to what economies need.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Fiat is not easy to print.  There's dozens of anti-counterfeiting measures built into them.  The only part of fiat that costs money right now is metal coinage but that cost is easily outweighed by the cloth legal tender.  As I said, the system is self funding by the central bank.  The central bank also strictly controls inflation/deflation which stabilizes the economies attached to it.
> 
> Ignoring all the implementation differences, the only difference between cryptocurrency and credit card issuers is that the former is a security while the latter is not.  Issuers work within the confines of the existing commodities (legal tender) that they trade in.  Cryptocurrency, being a security, is why it is extremely volatile.  It is incapable of responding to demand and surplus while also not being tied to a commodity; therefore, it inflates and deflates on a whim.  Cryptocurrency's nature (instability and inflexibility) is an antithesis to what economies need.


One's been shaped by decades one by seven years , your point is sound but crypto could gain stability , fiat is just the big guys carrot , and with the runaway debt and inflation it seams to cause it's probably not all that.

Oh and I appreciate your understanding on the rant and the sound reasonable reply


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## Space Lynx (Dec 9, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> One's been shaped by decades one by seven years , your point is sound but crypto could gain stability , fiat is just the big guys carrot , and with the runaway debt and inflation it seams to cause it's probably not all that.
> 
> Oh and I appreciate your understanding on the rant and the sound reasonable reply



This is only the beginning.  https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7iey6q/us_senate_bill_s1241_to_criminalize_concealed/

Next up, shutting down the exchanges 2-3 years from now. Governments will never let themselves be undermined. Have fun cashing out your Bitcoin when that day comes. 

My guess is they will try to tax it first, when they realize that is to hard to keep track of because of Monero, etc... they will look at the axing of exchanges.


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## R-T-B (Dec 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> In all honesty, the path forward is modernizing the ACH system.  Cryptocurrency has too much baggage.



I actually feel ACH has far more baggage.  The crypto ecosystem is diverse enough that I don't see practically any baggage, more a plethora of choices.


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## cdawall (Dec 9, 2017)

There will never be one coin to rule them all. BTC is going to have it's day as will quite a few others. Just ride the waves when you can and profit.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 9, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> I actually feel ACH has far more baggage.  The crypto ecosystem is diverse enough that I don't see practically any baggage, more a plethora of choices.


I was talking about transaction fees, privacy considerations, inability to recover lost funds, inability to respond to changes in demand, computational costs, load on internet infrastructure, electrical cost, and so on.  "Crypto ecosystem" to me looks like the NYSE: pick a stock and gamble on whether it will rise or fall.




cdawall said:


> There will never be one coin to rule them all. BTC is going to have it's day as will quite a few others. Just ride the waves when you can and profit.


I seriously don't see a path forward for cryptocurrencies.  Like I said, there's no assets, liabilities, nor debts to back its value.  Its real value is next to nothing.  Everything we see beyond that is a manifestation of speculation and greed.  It smells of pyramid and multi-level marketing schemes. Bob buys cryptocurrency on hope that it will raise in value.  Jim buys cryptocurrency on seeing the spike Bob caused hoping it will raise in value.  John buys cryptocurrency because of the spikes Bob and Jim caused. Repeat until it crashes.  The crash will likely start with a scare that causes a run on the exchanges which, in turn, collapse because they have to pay out more than it's actually worth.  Because there's no insurance, it's going to look like Mt. Gox: the assets of the business (including cryptocoin) will get tied up in lawsuits so no one can touch it until after it is worthless.  I don't know when it will happen but it will.​


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## R-T-B (Dec 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Like I said, there's no assets, liabilities, nor debts to back its value.


The economy that accepts it is it's backing.  Quite similar to cash really.


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## Final_Fighter (Dec 9, 2017)

the54thvoid said:


> Let me know what that coin is when you find out!


IOTA


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 9, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> The economy that accepts it is it's backing.  Quite similar to cash really.


No economy accepts it (not legal tender), individuals (and a dwindling number of businesses) choose to trade for it.  So no, no backing: self-perpetuating.


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## cdawall (Dec 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> No economy accepts it (not legal tender), individuals (and a dwindling number of businesses) choose to trade for it.  So no, no backing: self-perpetuating.



Of course ignoring countries like Japan that's accept it as legal tender to pay all debts within the country foreign and domestic, but whatever I guess they don't count.


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## R-T-B (Dec 9, 2017)

People are also an economy.  And if people did not want it, it wouldn't be so valuable.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 9, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> individuals are an economy, and if individuals did not want it, it would not be valuable.


I think you need to look up the definition of an "economy."  Individuals trading an economy does not make.  Namely, economies are tied to a place.  The place establishes constraints like resources and functions acted upon it (production, consumption, distribution).  Which takes me right back to the point: cryptocurrencies are securities (an idea) not commodities (things).  Fiat currencies are ideas too but there's a framework for commoditizing it (legal tender) and it's stabilized by the economy it represents.



R-T-B said:


> Businesses accepting crypto are not "dwindling."  Bussinesses accepting bitcoin are.


BTC was the medium through which businesses interfaced with cryptocurrencies.  They're stopping because of the volatility.  Exchanges are "financial institutions," not businesses.



R-T-B said:


> People are also an economy.  And if people did not want it, it wouldn't be so valuable.


Most people "want it" to make a profit off it like a stock.  People don't hoard cash to make a profit off it because inflation dictates you'll only lose.  Yet more evidence that cryptocurrency will never be a legitimate currency.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I think you need to look up the definition of an "economy."  Individuals trading an economy does not make.  Namely, economies are tied to a place.  The place establishes constraints like resources and functions acted upon it (production, consumption, distribution).  Which takes me right back to the point: cryptocurrencies are securities (an idea) not commodities (things).  Fiat currencies are ideas too but there's a framework for commoditizing it (legal tender) and it's stabilized by the economy it represents.
> 
> 
> BTC was the medium through which businesses interfaced with cryptocurrencies.  They're stopping because of the volatility.  Exchanges are "financial institutions," not businesses.
> ...


You are in for the win , fiat style aren't you ,im going to give up personally , your stuck in your own perspective mate , and your world in ten years is going to seam like a gut punch by what your saying.

Even real money is pretty much digital to most users ,vis PayPal , Google n apple are all going to shut your banks down by being easier and better for most then your country's crypto will be your only way to pay.

This all started way before crypto emerged , it's not what i want btw but it's what i perceive to be happening regardless of what people want or think.

A nes classic console isn't Worth 13k but they sell on ebay.
A bitcoin might not be worth 13k but they sold for it

I have a rusty old escort turbo id say is worth 8-10k but another guy wouldn't pay 50 for such old tat.

Your opinions dont rule the world so the rest of us who place worth in crypto might be fools to you but we make your points irrelevant if we all agree it has worth.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 9, 2017)

PayPal operates off of a bank that trades in US dollar.  I assume you're talking Google Play and Apple Store: both are also built off a bank account and the US dollar.


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## R-T-B (Dec 9, 2017)

> I think you need to look up the definition of an "economy."



No, I think you need to recognize the crypto economy and the places it does business.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Most people "want it" to make a profit off it like a stock.  People don't hoard cash to make a profit off it because inflation dictates you'll only lose.  Yet more evidence that cryptocurrency will never be a legitimate currency.



That does not explain the "hodlers" which are a pretty big chunk of bitcoin.  How do you make a profit if you literally never sell?



FordGT90Concept said:


> BTC was the medium through which businesses interfaced with cryptocurrencies. They're stopping because of the volatility. Exchanges are "financial institutions," not businesses



I am not referencing exchanges, but businesses accepting altcoins through different carts ala bitpay and the like.  Altcoin acceptance is growing while bitcoin is shrinking.

Thanks for digging out my old post, by the way.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 10, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> No, I think you need to recognize the crypto economy and the places it does business.


Cryptocurrency is no more an economy than NASDAQ or NYSE is an economy.  They are not.  They are based off the US economy.  Bonds are the same: anyone in the world can buy them but they're still an extension of the US economy.



R-T-B said:


> That does not explain the "hodlers" which are a pretty big chunk of bitcoin.  How do you make a profit if you literally never sell?


1. Can't sell because the wallet has been lost.
2. Forgotten: people that obtained BTC and forgot about it or haven't bothered to research how to sell it.
3. People that aren't selling because they are betting it will go higher.
4. Exchanges that pool BTC so they can sell it...might not be any buyers so it accumulates.



R-T-B said:


> I am not referencing exchanges, but businesses accepting altcoins through different carts ala bitpay and the like.  Altcoin acceptance is growing while bitcoin is shrinking.


But all of that relies on the exchanges' willingness to convert it to legal tenders.  Like I said, exchanges will be the first to fall in a collapse (e.g. Mt. Gox already did).  Without the exchanges, cryptocurrency of any kind is not convertible and...well...becomes worthless overnight.  The volatility of BTC may prove toxic to the entire market.  I'd love to know how leveraged the exchanges are and if they have enough assets to survive a run on cryptocurrencies.  For example, if an exchange only has $100 million in liquid assets and people attempt to withdraw $500 million at BTC's inflated price (34,000 BTC as of posting this), what's going to happen?  This is fundamentally what happened on  Black Tuesday.



R-T-B said:


> Thanks for digging out my old post, by the way.


Replied to the first part, got a pop up saying it's FUBAR, copied it and the rest to a text document, went to bed.


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## R0H1T (Dec 10, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Your starting argument is what would we do with *banker*'s???,.  Madness im sure they'll fanangle an angle bro they ARE working on their own cryptos.
> So all in go ask the CEOs ,what Are they going to do when Their cryptos are out and in use, making all our local banks close up on mass and losing jobs.
> Im of a mind to save this post as it's irony could be funny in twenty years.
> Oh and I have to say im not against fiat currency or for crypto im evolving with my environment is all.


I hope you're not lumping everyone that works in the banking sector as that. There are literally millions who do an honest day's work trying to help people, by *banker* I assume you mean certain brokers/wealth mangers or top management who's job is to make their fat wallet &/or the shareholder's happy. Then there's people who depend on the banking system to provide them with the majority of their business, like a small time office supplies shop.


theoneandonlymrk said:


> One's been shaped by decades one by seven years , your point is sound but crypto could gain stability , fiat is just the big guys carrot , and with the runaway debt and inflation it seams to cause it's probably not all that.
> Oh and I appreciate your understanding on the rant and the sound reasonable reply


Currency isn't just money, it's an extension of a nation's status, wealth & power. Think of it as this, without the threat of nukes (which sadly exist) the US' biggest weapon has been the $ for better part of a century. Fiat as a concept might be outdated but currencies aren't going away anytime soon, they're just a conduit for transfer of wealth & (re)circulation of money in the system. Fiat will be redundant when the whole world agrees on a single system/mode of payment & trade wars would've been a thing of the past. Till that time BTC can enjoy it's day in the sun but it'll brought back down to earth when/if the big bad govts think it's a threat to their power, that is if they still don't want to make money off of it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 10, 2017)

The ideal currency would be something whose value is absolute...like how we base meter off of the speed of light in a vacuum or Kelvin scale off of absolute zero.  I don't think such a thing exists because supply and demand always comes into play.  Fiat based off a relatively stable economy (like USA) is far more stable than cryptocurrencies.  It's not ideal but it's the best option right now.


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## verycharbroiled (Dec 15, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> I am not referencing exchanges, but businesses accepting altcoins through different carts ala bitpay and the like. Altcoin acceptance is growing while bitcoin is shrinking.



looks like bitpay officially announced today that it will will start accepting alts, starting with bcash, for their payment processing soon. sounds good, ive bought stuff using bitpay with btc but its been bigger stuff so that the fees dont seem to bad in comparison to the amount. with alts, buying inexpensive items becomes doable.

https://blog.bitpay.com/multiple-blockchains/


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## R-T-B (Dec 15, 2017)

verycharbroiled said:


> looks like bitpay officially announced today that it will will start accepting alts, starting with bcash, for their payment processing soon. sounds good, ive bought stuff using bitpay with btc but its been bigger stuff so that the fees dont seem to bad in comparison to the amount. with alts, buying inexpensive items becomes doable.
> 
> https://blog.bitpay.com/multiple-blockchains/



Steam should be happy...


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## verycharbroiled (Dec 15, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Steam should be happy...



i sent some btc to steam a couple years ago for a few games. those games are worth "thousands" now and i never really  played them. guess ill have to fire them up now just because..


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## trog100 (Dec 17, 2017)

why people think fiat is some kind of bank note i cant figure.. its mostly digits on a banks computer.. i would guess that only a tiny fraction of whats in circulation is in the form of paper.. 

i dont know how typical i am but its very very rare for me to spend paper money.. its all plastic and paypal for me.. i even buy my crypto with visa plastic.. 

it never gets a mention but i wonder were paypal fits in with all this.. i have been using it to buy stuff from any place in the world for the last twelve years or so.. before that i did actually spend "cash".. he he

in fact a few years back i had over £40000 sat in my paypal account.. i never bothered taking it out i just left it there.. what the f-ck is this stuff called cash i keep hear people talking about..

trog


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## flmatter (Dec 17, 2017)

what the f-ck is this stuff called cash i keep hear people talking about..
@trog100  it is a rarity anymore.   Maybe I should sell it on eBay. Hahahaha.  Jk


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## notb (Dec 18, 2017)

trog100 said:


> why people think fiat is some kind of bank note i cant figure.. its mostly digits on a banks computer.. i would guess that only a tiny fraction of whats in circulation is in the form of paper..
> 
> i dont know how typical i am but its very very rare for me to spend paper money.. its all plastic and paypal for me.. i even buy my crypto with visa plastic..


Money is not infinitely created. The supply is limited and controlled by the state that governs the currency. And you're right in the guess that only a small portion of money is in a form of paper. In XXI century we need a lot more money than we need cash.
So the concept is pretty simple and is called in a straightforward manner: "money creation".
In the basic model: the central bank provides some amount of cash and sets a so called "reserve requirement" - the amount of that cash each commercial bank has to keep in relation to deposits it has. So naturally, the amount of money circulating the economy is a multiplication of the actually existing cash.

When you hear that your state is "printing money" it's very unlikely that some actual paper colouring takes place. Usually it's just the money policy (e.g. the reserve requirement) that is changed, so that banks can lend a bit more.


FordGT90Concept said:


> The ideal currency would be something whose value is absolute...like how we base meter off of the speed of light in a vacuum or Kelvin scale off of absolute zero.  I don't think such a thing exists because supply and demand always comes into play.  Fiat based off a relatively stable economy (like USA) is far more stable than cryptocurrencies.  It's not ideal but it's the best option right now.


Not really.
Money is not just a thing you exchange for goods. It's not just means of payment. It's also an important concept in economy. And to some extent it is important that particular states can control their currencies (their value relative to other state currencies).
So while it would be very convenient to have a global payment method - like credits in computer games, it would also have serious effects on the economies, on state competitiveness, on people well being all over the planet.


theoneandonlymrk said:


> Even real money is pretty much digital to most users ,vis PayPal , Google n apple are all going to shut your banks down by being easier and better for most then your country's crypto will be your only way to pay.


Your largest mistake is that you think digital money is disconnected from the fiat state currencies. You seem to think that Google and PayPal use some different kind USD than Bank of America does. But it's the same thing.
And while you're right that Google is taking a bit of bank profits by offering a competing payment system, it's actually helping the banks, not harming them. That's because cash becomes obsolete. It's easier, cheaper and more convenient to have "electronic money". And the greatest target for each bank is to convince you to deposit your money.
Banks make little to no profit on transfers (most of the fees goes to other institutions).
Banks earn money by investing the deposits they have. So the more money bank has, the more it can earn.

The next time you're pulling cash out of ATM, think about the (usually high) fee you're paying for this. It's not for keeping the ATM operational. It's not for the guys that move cash around in armoured trucks. What you're actually paying for is taking money out of banking network. So between the moment you cash out and someone else puts it back into a bank account, a portion of money is not being invested. It just lies in your pocket, doing nothing.


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## trog100 (Dec 18, 2017)

currently money is being infinitely created.. the stock markets are where most of it goes... this makes the rich richer and the poor poorer..

with so much "free" money floated around the rich just borrow as much of it as they want and chuck it at the stock market.. companies borrow it to buy back their own shares and inflate the value of their own companies.. the entire game is fake..

come on notb.. you obviously know something about the theory and how its supposed to work.. but i recon you have some catching up to do..

where it all ends i havnt a clue.. i dont think anyone elses has ether.. he he..

i am slowly removing the small amount  i have in the bank and its going into light coin... why should i lend the bank it to play with for f-ck all..

i did some sums the other day.. if litecoin goes up the same percent amount next year as it did this year i will be a millionaire.. 

trog


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## R-T-B (Dec 18, 2017)

notb said:


> The next time you're pulling cash out of ATM, think about the (usually high) fee you're paying for this.



Ironically that is something that is often free in America.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 18, 2017)

notb said:


> It's not for keeping the ATM operational.


Actually it is.  ATMs cost electricity, internet bandwidth, and property rent.  If you get charged a fee, it's usually because you're using an ATM that owned by another bank that you're not a member of so they're charging you to pay for those things.  Banks usually don't charge their own members fees for using their own ATMs.  It's a perk for being a member.


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## yotano211 (Dec 18, 2017)

trog100 said:


> why people think fiat is some kind of bank note i cant figure.. its mostly digits on a banks computer.. i would guess that only a tiny fraction of whats in circulation is in the form of paper..
> 
> i dont know how typical i am but its very very rare for me to spend paper money.. its all plastic and paypal for me.. i even buy my crypto with visa plastic..
> 
> ...


I take dozens of payments a day with paypal and I would never in my mind leave more than $500usd in paypal.


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## R0H1T (Dec 18, 2017)

trog100 said:


> currently money is being infinitely created.. the stock markets are where most of it goes... this makes the rich richer and the poor poorer..
> 
> with so much "free" money floated around the rich just borrow as much of it as they want and chuck it at the stock market.. companies borrow it to buy back their own shares and inflate the value of their own companies.. the entire game is fake..
> 
> ...


I'd argue stocks is the second or the third most attractive destination for fiat. The number one being real estate, if you want returns, at least in my part of the world, that is where you'd like to park your $ but mostly (towards) land. The gains in crypto are nothing compared to the gains I've seen in land prices, where I live the land prices have gone up 1000x in less than 25 years.

We've also seen Chinese hot money grabbing land around the world, so while crypto might be the flavor of the month or year, land is still the biggest diamond mine out there, especially in the developing world.


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## notb (Dec 18, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Ironically that is something that is often free in America.


Hmmm.. well, banks in US are very expensive, so maybe they give you free cash withdrawals from ATMs. That would make sense since you like cash so much.
In more electronic-loving Poland it's pretty easy to find an account with almost zero-cost online operations (like we've discussed few days ago). The transfers are free, the account itself is almost free. But ATM operations are expensive: even as much as 3-4%.

When I wrote about the ATM costs, I mean how the product pricing works (example below). In the end the bank creates some tariff to earn what it has to.
I pay around 8 EUR monthly for some kind of a "premium" account and almost everything else is free (including a nice looking debit card ).



FordGT90Concept said:


> Actually it is.  ATMs cost electricity, internet bandwidth, and property rent.


Nope. These are unallocated costs. I.e. the ATM operator adds everything up and sends a big number to the bank. The bank itself is not booking tiny costs for each operation.

I meant how pricing works (the math behind). A simple explanation follows.

Think about pricing a financial instrument (stock, bond, future, option - whatever).
You could buy a stock (which will have some fluctuations, with higher return possible), but you could also put the same money in a deposit or a bond and earn less with close to zero risk. So even if this stock returns to original price after a year, you've actually lost money. So you always include an interest rate that decreases the instrument value over time.

Yes, you might not be paying for your ATM operation. But somewhere deep in your bank's HQ there is an analyst who studies how long that withdrawn money stays outside of the bank and how much it would earn if it stayed (or was transferred electronically). And he reports that on average the bank has to charge X for ATM operations (above the cost of running the actual ATMs).



> If you get charged a fee, it's usually because you're using an ATM that owned by another bank that you're not a member of so they're charging you to pay for those things.  Banks usually don't charge their own members fees for using their own ATMs.  It's a perk for being a member.


It used to be like that in Europe 10 years ago. Today they are charging for own ATMs as well. Actually, it's not just withdrawals that you have to pay for. In Poland you pay for checking your balance via ATM (and it's no small fee: usually 1-2 EUR). This used to be free not so long ago.


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## R-T-B (Dec 18, 2017)

Not really notb.

My bank is pretty much free across the board other than wire transfers...  I can't remember the last time I paid a fee.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 18, 2017)

My credit union is pretty small so if you aren't using a specific network of ATMs, fees will be charged for ATM use. The fees are used by the credit union to pay the ATM operator for handling the transaction.



notb said:


> It used to be like that in Europe 10 years ago. Today they are charging for own ATMs as well. Actually, it's not just withdrawals that you have to pay for. In Poland you pay for checking your balance via ATM (and it's no small fee: usually 1-2 EUR). This used to be free not so long ago.


Because EU shutdown a lot of sources of revenue for banks so they have to nickel and dime the smallest of things to stay solvent.  US banks/credit unions make money on every credit card/debit card transaction (tack on like 5% to every time the card is used which retailers pay because they didn't have to pay a cashier to wait on you).  Pretty sure that's against the law in EU (or it's a really, really low precent).  They take that profit and use it to waive fees and offer incentives (like a lot of banks now give you 3% if you use your debit card 10 times in a month).  This is also the reason why some retailers outright refuse credit/debit cards or tack on a surcharge of their own to cover the increase they have to pay.


The only fee I've ever had to pay to date is for foreign currency exchange via credit card (because Bundle Stars...still ends up being a great deal with the fee included).


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## trog100 (Dec 18, 2017)

R0H1T said:


> I'd argue stocks is the second or the third most attractive destination for fiat. The number one being real estate, if you want returns, at least in my part of the world, that is where you'd like to park your $ but mostly (towards) land. The gains in crypto are nothing compared to the gains I've seen in land prices, where I live the land prices have gone up 1000x in less than 25 years.
> 
> We've also seen Chinese hot money grabbing land around the world, so while crypto might be the flavor of the month or year, land is still the biggest diamond mine out there, especially in the developing world.



yes i should have added the words (or whatever takes their fancy) in my post.. i did think about it adding them.. 

but its all free money and it will massively inflate the price of whatever or wherever its being chucked .. stock markets going up isnt sign a sign of an economy doing well as governments make out its just a sign of all the free money thats floating about..

trog

one other thing about ballistic bitcoin.. it aint quite as ballistic as its made out.. it gone up around %2000 during the last year but eth and ltc have gone up around %9000 during the same period..

bitcoin having taken a few years to get there just started off the year a tad higher.. 

trog

i aint quite got used to this auto post merging yet.. he he


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