# Cant seem to figure out why my game is stuttering



## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

Hi, my name is alden and ive had a problem with my graphics card not able to keep up with my cpu. Im not sure if its that or something else but from all the troubleshooting I've done i think its my gpu. I need help figuring out what the problem is. Please help, thanks.

My game seems like it keeps stuttering and everything looks terrible. I have everything on low and i get bad fps when im around alot of buildings and such in games. Also when im in a gunfight say in pubg, my game stutters alot and gets low fps.
Specs:
Gpu: RX 580 8GB OC
CPU: Ryzen 7 2700x
Ram: 16gb ddr4 2400mhz
Mobo: b350m mortar
Psu: 500w
Hdd and ssd


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 14, 2021)

is that ram in two modules or a single one? im also going to need more info on your power supply - make/model number and how much free space you have on your SSD


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

FreedomEclipse said:


> is that ram in two modules or a single one? im also going to need more info on your power supply - make/model number and how much free space you have on your SSD


Its in two dimm slots. The 2nd and the 3rd. Im not sure, its a bronze. I think. Wym the make/model number?



FreedomEclipse said:


> is that ram in two modules or a single one? im also going to need more info on your power supply - make/model number and how much free space you have on your SSD


And they have free space on both


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## FreedomEclipse (Oct 14, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Its in two dimm slots. The 2nd and the 3rd. Im not sure, its a bronze. I think. Wym the make/model number?
> 
> 
> And they have free space on both



Power supplies are normally made by a company who slaps their logo on it. Model number would be anything. Letters and numbers to denote that power supply is from a certain product line and the numbers tend to be the wattage. For instance. corsair have their CX, CS, HX, RM, RMx, AX line of power supplies usually followed by a set of numbers. So a CX500 for example would be a 500w unit.


When you say "free space" how much free space? and what are the sizes. if you have a 128gb ssd and you fill 127gbs of it, you will have space, but you will lose performance because of it.


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## GhostRyder (Oct 14, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Its in two dimm slots. The 2nd and the 3rd. Im not sure, its a bronze. I think. Wym the make/model number?
> 
> 
> And they have free space on both


When you say second and third that does not seem to be right.

When you put two memory modules in they need to be in slots 2 and 4 to run Dual Channel mode on most motherboards.  I would try that first.  Send a picture of where they are in the board if you are not sure.  I would bet money that is a source of your issues, I have had friends with the same issue.  Normally they are color matched slots (For instance, If your slots are black for slots 1 and 3 and red for 2 and 4, you would use the red slots first)


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## Tatty_One (Oct 14, 2021)

It could be your ram, you appear to not be running it in dual channel mode, according to your manual you should be using the 2nd and 4th slots (Dimm A2 & B2) at 2400mhz single channel could be holding you back ....................


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## Tetras (Oct 14, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Hi, my name is alden and ive had a problem with my graphics card not able to keep up with my cpu. Im not sure if its that or something else but from all the troubleshooting I've done i think its my gpu. I need help figuring out what the problem is. Please help, thanks.
> 
> My game seems like it keeps stuttering and everything looks terrible. I have everything on low and i get bad fps when im around alot of buildings and such in games. Also when im in a gunfight say in pubg, my game stutters alot and gets low fps.
> Specs:
> ...



What resolution are you playing at?

Temps all okay, I take it?

Did it work fine once or has it always been like this?


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

GhostRyder said:


> When you say second and third that does not seem to be right.
> 
> When you put two memory modules in they need to be in slots 2 and 4 to run Dual Channel mode on most motherboards.  I would try that first.  Send a picture of where they are in the board if you are not sure.  I would bet money that is a source of your issues, I have had friends with the same issue.  Normally they are color matched slots (For instance, If your slots are black for slots 1 and 3 and red for 2 and 4, you would use the red slots first)





FreedomEclipse said:


> Power supplies are normally made by a company who slaps their logo on it. Model number would be anything. Letters and numbers to denote that power supply is from a certain product line and the numbers tend to be the wattage. For instance. corsair have their CX, CS, HX, RM, RMx, AX line of power supplies usually followed by a set of numbers. So a CX500 for example would be a 500w unit.
> 
> 
> When you say "free space" how much free space? and what are the sizes. if you have a 128gb ssd and you fill 127gbs of it, you will have space, but you will lose performance because of it.





Theirs my power supply. Sorry i mean 2nd and 4th slots. And i have enough space to download a game on them like battlefield if i wanted to.



Tetras said:


> What resolution are you playing at?
> 
> Temps all okay, I take it?
> 
> Did it work fine once or has it always been


Its pretty much always been like this. And i think the temps are alright. Because my gpu never hits 100% usage for some reason



GhostRyder said:


> When you say second and third that does not seem to be right.
> 
> When you put two memory modules in they need to be in slots 2 and 4 to run Dual Channel mode on most motherboards.  I would try that first.  Send a picture of where they are in the board if you are not sure.  I would bet money that is a source of your issues, I have had friends with the same issue.  Normally they are color matched slots (For instance, If your slots are black for slots 1 and 3 and red for 2 and 4, you would use the red slots first)


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## GhostRyder (Oct 14, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> View attachment 220873
> Theirs my power supply. Sorry i mean 2nd and 4th slots. And i have enough space to download a game on them like battlefield if i wanted to.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok did you move them or is that where they have always been.

Check your BIOS to make sure you have the memory set to 2400mhz.

Do you have Vsync on in games?


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

GhostRyder said:


> Ok did you move them or is that where they have always been.
> 
> Check your BIOS to make sure you have the memory set to 2400mhz.
> 
> Do you have Vsync on in games?


Thats where they've always been. I do not have vsync on because it causes too much delay to be able to play like csgo or pubg. They're at 2400 mhz im pretty sure


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## ZenZimZaliben (Oct 14, 2021)

May not even be hardware related. How's your internet connection?


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## outpt (Oct 14, 2021)

nothing wrong with PSU. are you running memory DOCP mode.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> May not even be hardware related. How's your internet connection?


Im connected via ethernet. And i have at&t. I rarely ever get packet loss



outpt said:


> nothing wrong with PSU. are you running memory DOCP mode.


Whats is DOCP mode? Is it in the bios?


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## Kurt63 (Oct 14, 2021)

Tatty_One said:


> It could be your ram, you appear to not be running it in dual channel mode, according to your manual you should be using the 2nd and 4th slots (Dimm A2 & B2) at 2400mhz single channel could be holding you back ....................
> 
> View attachment 220872


I'm giving you a thumbs up for the Laurence Binyan quote   .....just had to !!!!!


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## outpt (Oct 14, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Im connected via ethernet. And i have at&t. I rarely ever get packet loss
> 
> 
> Whats is DOCP mode? Is it in the bios?


allows memory to run above stated speed. is found in bios and needs to be enabled if not all ready will not harm modules.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

outpt said:


> allows memory to run above stated speed. is found in bios and needs to be enabled if not all ready will not harm modules.


Wait do you enable DOCP with the XMP profiles in the bios ?


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## outpt (Oct 14, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Wait do you enable DOCP with the XMP profiles in the bios ?


yes


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 14, 2021)

outpt said:


> yes


Okay. One is 2900mhz and one is 3200mhz. Should i set it as the 3200mhz ?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 15, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Okay. One is 2900mhz and one is 3200mhz. Should i set it as the 3200mhz ?


Set it to 3200

What HD do you have, is it 85% full?

What Specific GPU do you have? What OS do you have, you did not provide enough info, what monitor? Resolution,video output/input you are using???


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## Mussels (Oct 15, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Hi, my name is alden and ive had a problem with my graphics card not able to keep up with my cpu. Im not sure if its that or something else but from all the troubleshooting I've done i think its my gpu. I need help figuring out what the problem is. Please help, thanks.
> 
> My game seems like it keeps stuttering and everything looks terrible. I have everything on low and i get bad fps when im around alot of buildings and such in games. Also when im in a gunfight say in pubg, my game stutters alot and gets low fps.
> Specs:
> ...


Please see the (work in progress) first link in my sig. A lot of simple steps, advice, and free tools


Ever since my TV being off caused my 3090 to lag, i've started to realise just how bizarre solving this sort of thing can get, and started writing that guide.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 15, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Set it to 3200
> 
> What HD do you have, is it 85% full?
> 
> What Specific GPU do you have? What OS do you have, you did not provide enough info, what monitor? Resolution,video output/input you are using???


Just a samsung disk drive. I think its about to 85% but not quite. I keep that defraged and oragnized as much as possible. I think i have the oced version of the rx 580. Its got fxf on the side. I have windows 10, not 11. I have a pretty cheap aoc monitor, its oved to 70 hz. The resolution is 1080p, with a hdmi



Mussels said:


> Please see the (work in progress) first link in my sig. A lot of simple steps, advice, and free tools
> 
> 
> Ever since my TV being off caused my 3090 to lag, i've started to realise just how bizarre solving this sort of thing can get, and started writing that guide.


Okay for sure. Where can i find your sig?? Sorry im a bit ignorant when it comes to this website haha


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## Mussels (Oct 15, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Just a* samsung disk drive*. I think its about to 85% but not quite. I keep that defraged and oragnized as much as possible. I think i have the *oced version of the rx 580. Its got fxf* on the side. I have windows 10, not 11. I have a pretty *cheap aoc monitor, its oved to 70 hz*. The resolution is 1080p, with a hdmi
> 
> 
> Okay for sure. Where can i find your sig?? Sorry im a bit ignorant when it comes to this website haha


So you're aware, that leaves us with over a hundred models of monitor, HDD, SSD and GPU to still guess from. This is why we ask for specific model numbers (and why my sig has the programs to find them, and shows you how to screenshot them and paste them here)

That monitor OC needs a lot more information too, and obviously you should get rid of it while troubleshooting

*Signature * - bottom of each post. click the bit i highlighted, i specifically wrote that guide for people like you, starting off simple and showing you how to collect information on everything that may cause your exact type of problem.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 15, 2021)

Mussels said:


> So you're aware, that leaves us with over a hundred models of monitor, HDD, SSD and GPU to still guess from. This is why we ask for specific model numbers (and why my sig has the programs to find them, and shows you how to screenshot them and paste them here)
> 
> That monitor OC needs a lot more information too, and obviously you should get rid of it while troubleshooting
> 
> ...


Sorry, im entirley new to this stuff. Do you know where i can get their cereal numbers ?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 15, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Sorry, im entirley new to this stuff. Do you know where i can get their cereal numbers ?


Look at the labels of each device, we dont need serial numbers but model numbers

You may want to go on youtube and learn some troubleshooting skills or go to a shop and let them figure it out...


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## thebluebumblebee (Oct 15, 2021)

How is that motherboard installed in the case??????


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 15, 2021)

thebluebumblebee said:


> How is that motherboard installed in the case??????


Who needs standoffs they just add weight to your case.
@BaiterSkater please download gpuz and cpu-z run them and take screenshots of everything and post here this should give us all the info we might need other than what PSU your using. 

I would suggest a clean install of Windows and installing drivers in the correct order, primarily chipset first but who knows what we might find with the correct info.


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## Mussels (Oct 16, 2021)

We need photos of this system from a better perspective

It's missing screws, if its just one thats fine... but there may be bigger problems


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 16, 2021)

Mussels said:


> We need photos of this system from a better perspective
> 
> It's missing screws, if its just one thats fine... but there may be bigger problems



It's more than one by the looks of it though normally a short to case wouldn't even post but who knows.


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## de.das.dude (Oct 16, 2021)

thebluebumblebee said:


> How is that motherboard installed in the case??????


poorly. It seems.

This has me concerned if things are even connected properly and tightly.

Can you show pics of your whole case, from the side so that all the components are visible?


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 16, 2021)

Update: ever since i oced my ram to 3200mhz, my games seem to be working alot better. The stuttering has gone to a minimum. 

Sure let me get a picture of it and ill post it.

This is the GPU-Z and CPU-Z stats for my desktop.


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## RJARRRPCGP (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Just a samsung disk drive. I think its about to 85% but not quite. I keep that defraged and oragnized as much as possible. I think i have the oced version of the rx 580. Its got fxf on the side. I have windows 10, not 11. I have a pretty cheap aoc monitor, its oved to 70 hz. The resolution is 1080p, with a hdmi
> 
> 
> Okay for sure. Where can i find your sig?? Sorry im a bit ignorant when it comes to this website haha


Is it the XFX GTS Black by any chance? Those RX 580s, out-of-the-box, have a boost clock of 1405 Mhz. Looks like it is! Cool! That's what I got in 2019, IIRC.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> Is it the XFX GTS Black by any chance? Those RX 580s, out-of-the-box, have a boost clock of 1405 Mhz. Looks like it is! Cool! That's what I got in 2019, IIRC.


Be nice if the info wasnt hidden, yeesh.

Dev id and ssid are very important to finding correct bios for cards...



Mussels said:


> We need photos of this system from a better perspective
> 
> It's missing screws, if its just one thats fine... but there may be bigger problems


Grounding if a must for any electronic to work correctly.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 17, 2021)

Mussels said:


> We need photos of this system from a better perspective
> 
> It's missing screws, if its just one thats fine... but there may be bigger problems


Here is the picture


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## thebluebumblebee (Oct 17, 2021)

If you didn't understand the sarcasm earlier in this thread, standoffs are important.  IMHO, that must be addressed before we go further.  That's a uATX motherboard in a case that appears to have had an ATX motherboard in it before.  The number of and placement of the standoffs must match the motherboard.  That motherboard uses 8 mounting screws.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Here is the picture


You're f'ing up by not having your motherboard properly grounded in that case.

And your gpu-z screenshot is wack


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 17, 2021)

thebluebumblebee said:


> If you didn't understand the sarcasm earlier in this thread, standoffs are important.  IMHO, that must be addressed before we go further.  That's a uATX motherboard in a case that appears to have had an ATX motherboard in it before.  The number of and placement of the standoffs must match the motherboard.  That motherboard uses 8 mounting screws.


So do i have to get new screws for it or change the placement of the screws in it ?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> So do i have to get new screws for it or change the placement of the screws in it ?


Compare holes in motherboad with holes in case and put brass standoffs with appropriate screws in it, or get to a shop please.

Watch this video


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 17, 2021)

Your pc case came with a little bag of screws you need to find these



Remove your motherboard fit these in the holes on your case which correspond with the holes on your motherboard then re fit everything with all the screws.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Your pc case came with a little bag of screws you need to find these
> View attachment 221212
> Remove your motherboard fit these in the holes on your case which correspond with the holes on your motherboard then re fit everything with all the screws.


If you ask me the OP is sounding like a troll.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 17, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Your pc case came with a little bag of screws you need to find these
> View attachment 221212
> Remove your motherboard fit these in the holes on your case which correspond with the holes on your motherboard then re fit everything with all the screws.


What are those screws called ?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> What are those screws called ?


MOTHERBOARD MOUNTING STANDOFFS, then MOTHERBOARD MOUNTING SCREWS.

Watch the video


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## thebluebumblebee (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> What are those screws called ?





			Amazon.com


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 17, 2021)

If you can't do this task go to a shop

Or watch the videos and read pc building books.


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## thebluebumblebee (Oct 17, 2021)

This might help with what hardware is used where:




That's from a Fractal Design case manual.


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## cst1992 (Oct 17, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


>



That video actually omitted one part: how to find out which standoff holes on the case match with which holes on the motherboard. Okay otherwise.
If the OP is totally new to this kind of stuff, then what I recommend is that they watch a PC builder build a PC from start to finish(with no edits, if possible)
I did it myself when building my PC and the builder for me was Carey Holzman on YouTube.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 17, 2021)

so how is this affecting my computer at the moment? is it being undervolted or something because of it? I don't understand.


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## cst1992 (Oct 17, 2021)

You could potentially brick your motherboard/other components because of this. You need to verify if the motherboard is properly mounted on its standoffs.


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## SomeOne99h (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> so how is this affecting my computer at the moment? is it being undervolted or something because of it? I don't understand.


Causes short circuit.

What is a short circuit?​ 
Electricity taking the easiest path

_By Meg Murphy_ 
Children are told: never stick a metal knife into a plugged-in toaster. You risk electrocution, or the toaster catching on fire.


The fear: a short circuit. For the heater inside a toaster to work, an electrical current must travel inside its conductive metal material. That current cycles through a closed circuit, which is a loop. A metal knife, however, presents the electricity with an optional path to travel — and it will take it.


“A short circuit is a connection between two parts of an electrical circuit that you don’t want to be there,” says Karl Berggren, professor of electrical engineering in the Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. He also heads the Quantum Nanostructures and Nanofabrication Group in the Research Laboratory for Electronics.

Reference:








						MIT School of Engineering | » What is a short circuit?
					






					engineering.mit.edu


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## Tetras (Oct 17, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> So do i have to get new screws for it or change the placement of the screws in it ?



Like said above, missing screws is alright (but be careful when messing with it because there's less support at the ram slots or power connectors), but screws _under_ the board (if there are no screw holes) would be very bad.

Some cases come with only 4 standoffs for screws pre-installed (the ones in each corner, relative to the CPU cooler, you have two under the GPU, I believe), if that's what happened here then it's fine (fine-ish).


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## cst1992 (Oct 17, 2021)

Tetras said:


> screws _under_ the board (if there are no screw holes) would be very bad


This, or the underside of the motherboard touching the case(because of bending/something else).


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 18, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> You could potentially brick your motherboard/other components because of this. You need to verify if the motherboard is properly mounted on its standoffs.


So should i take the motherboard put and see if im missing standoffs ?


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## cvaldes (Oct 18, 2021)

It doesn't look like you even need to remove the motherboard at first.

Your motherboard has eight mounting holes. It looks like most of them are empty based on the photographs you've provided. There is other evidence of sloppy PC construction as well but the first course of action is to make sure the mobo is properly installed.

Start by putting a screw in each mounting hole (your motherboard's owners manual will identify their locations). If you can't detect a standoff, it's likely that it is missing.

This should take you no more than 60-90 seconds.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 18, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> So should i take the motherboard put and see if im missing standoffs ?


YES


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## outpt (Oct 18, 2021)

I think he’s playing every one!


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## SomeOne99h (Oct 18, 2021)

outpt said:


> I think he’s playing every one!


Beginners to PC building tend to do even worse than that man.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 18, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> YES


Gotcha


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## Mussels (Oct 18, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> so how is this affecting my computer at the moment? is it being undervolted or something because of it? I don't understand.


It can short out and die, or start a fire at any moment if it moves around and touches something it shouldnt.

It needs to be screwed in place, and its not.

That HDD looks like an absolute antique, please disconnect it and run SSD only and see what happens


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## cst1992 (Oct 18, 2021)

outpt said:


> I think he’s playing every one!


I see nothing in the thread to support that.



Mussels said:


> That HDD looks like an absolute antique, please disconnect it and run SSD only and see what happens


Would that affect real-time game performance though?

I'd say it'd only affect loading times.


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## Mussels (Oct 18, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> I see nothing in the thread to support that.
> 
> 
> Would that affect real-time game performance though?
> ...


100%, mech drives absolutely cause systems to halt on spin up. Game doesnt need to be on it at all.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 18, 2021)

This is what it looks like under my motherboard. It seems i have a few of standoffs you guys mentioned.

Well i booted everything up now that i took my mobo out and switched the pcie slot from 1 to 2 and now it says there's four keyboards and two mice?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> This is what it looks like under my motherboard. It seems i have a few of standoffs you guys mentioned.
> 
> Well i booted everything up now that i took my mobo out and switched the pcie slot from 1 to 2 and now it says there's four keyboards and two mice?


Take it to a shop, 

You have failed to listen to the suggestions about standoffs.

/thread,


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## Mussels (Oct 19, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> This is what it looks like under my motherboard. It seems i have a few of standoffs you guys mentioned.
> 
> Well i booted everything up now that i took my mobo out and switched the pcie slot from 1 to 2 and now it says there's four keyboards and two mice?


That's normal, a mouse with extra buttons pretends to be a keyboard as well

The CMOS cleared message could indicate a flat battery, at the very least your BIOS settings are all reset (which means we may need to confirm some critical settings are correct there.


You cant half-ass this stuff. I get that it's confusing when you're being given advice by multiple people, but standoffs being done wrong can result in electrocution and fire. DON'T fuck about with them.

Not every standoff position can or should be used on the case. Different motherboard sizes use different holes.
Every stand-off hole that matches between the case and mobo, MUST have a standoff. Doesn't matter at all if it's the cause of performance issues, it's a SAFETY issue.


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## thebluebumblebee (Oct 19, 2021)

Mussels said:


> *EVERY* hole on the motherboard needs a standoff.
> Zero where there is no hole, one where there is. The end.


Well, that particular motherboard has 2 holes at the very bottom edge (normal ATX tower orientation) that using a screw/standoff is optional.  That motherboard has 8 locations that need screws, and it's rather easy to tell where.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 19, 2021)

1. Watch a build video 
2. Clean it use a paint brush or something suitable to get rid of all the dust and nasties 
3. Fit the standoffs into the case that correspond with the holes on your motherboard 
4. Cable manage find routes so your cables are tidy without touching heat sinks and have no strain 

That's all I can suggest at this point.
Good luck


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## Mussels (Oct 19, 2021)

thebluebumblebee said:


> Well, that particular motherboard has 2 holes at the very bottom edge (normal ATX tower orientation) that using a screw/standoff is optional.  That motherboard has 8 locations that need screws, and it's rather easy to tell where.


I'll re-word that - you got in before my first edit, but i made it clearer again.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 19, 2021)

Wait im so confused on what to do about the standoffs


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 19, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Wait im so confused on what to do about the standoffs


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## the54thvoid (Oct 19, 2021)

Thought I'd pop in and observe this thread. 

@BaiterSkater - do as requested earlier in the thread and fill out your system specs in your profile- it'll help people new to this thread. Click your user name at the top of the TPU forum page (in menu bar, right hand side). You'll see a heading for 'System Specs' - go fill it out please.


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## cst1992 (Oct 19, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


>


Nice video. Note that the case is oriented to the right →, not the top ↑.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 19, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> Nice video. Note that the case is oriented to the right →, not the top ↑.


I didn't watch it sorry I just linked the first thing on YouTube was it any good?


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## cst1992 (Oct 19, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> I didn't watch it sorry I just linked the first thing on YouTube was it any good?


Yeah, it's all right. It doesn't cover the motherboard installation itself though.


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## chrcoluk (Oct 19, 2021)

If its hardware, its probably either cpu, ram or storage, gpu bottlenecks dont tend to have a stuttery effect unless vsync.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> If its hardware, its probably either cpu, ram or storage, gpu bottlenecks dont tend to have a stuttery effect unless vsync.


Well I thought it might be a gpu issue because my gpu never stayes at 100% usage

So i ordered some new standoffs and I'm not really sure what to do about my performance issues. Can anyone help me out there?

i noticed that when im playing a game my gpu usage never goes up to 100%


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## Mussels (Oct 20, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Well I thought it might be a gpu issue because my gpu never stayes at 100% usage
> 
> So i ordered some new standoffs and I'm not really sure what to do about my performance issues. Can anyone help me out there?
> 
> i noticed that when im playing a game my gpu usage never goes up to 100%


Usually that would imply you are CPU limited, and is different to a stutter issue.

Can i see HWinfo64 screenshots that show your CPU clockspeed and temps, with min max and average visible? First link of my sig has info on it, if needed.

By clicking the arrows in the bottom left, and closing a few irrelevant sensors i can get CPU clocks, temps, and power on the left with GPU readings on the right, all in the one screenshot.
My screenshot here is idle on a system doing nothing, we'd be looking for something like your max CPU Clocks being low, temps being high, that sort of thing.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Usually that would imply you are CPU limited, and is different to a stutter issue.
> 
> Can i see HWinfo64 screenshots that show your CPU clockspeed and temps, with min max and average visible? First link of my sig has info on it, if needed.
> 
> ...


Okay sure. Let me install hwinfo and get everything situated on my screen. Thanks for the reply. One sec


----------



## Mussels (Oct 20, 2021)

Oh and obviously - we need that after a gaming session (5 mins is plenty)

Run your normal settings, take a screenshot and post it

Run 1280x720 on low settings (vsync off) for 5 minutes, screenshot, post it.

We can compare and go from there.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

so I've gotten this far. Idk if that's what you needed.


Mussels said:


> Oh and obviously - we need that after a gaming session (5 mins is plenty)
> 
> Run your normal settings, take a screenshot and post it
> 
> ...



btw in my BIOS i set my cpu clock to 3.7 ghz because i read on a site that this motherboard gets really hot when overclocking the ryzen 7 2700x in it


----------



## Mussels (Oct 20, 2021)

You need to run it in 'sensors only' mode to get the relevant screens

Windows key + shift + s
use that for snipping tool,  we dont need the whole desktop


Turn off that underclock of the CPU. Don't do things like that if you don't know what you're doing, that's just slowing it down for no reason.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You need to run it in 'sensors only' mode to get the relevant screens
> 
> Windows key + shift + s
> use that for snipping tool,  we dont need the whole desktop
> ...


im not sure how to get the little arrows to appear and how did you get it to have two sides for the sensor monitoring ?

this is what i got at the moment

oh and i did turn off the underclock. my BIOS is at its defaults


----------



## Mussels (Oct 20, 2021)

Right, if you cant follow instructions from here, i'm going to just consider you trolling and lock the thread.

That aida64 screenshot shows it was open for 15 seconds. 
You didnt run the game.
you didnt fix the clock speeds.

You still arent even using the snipping tool for screenshots, why are you taking full desktop screenshots?


Follow instructions, or why bother?


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Right, if you cant follow instructions from here, i'm going to just consider you trolling and lock the thread.
> 
> That aida64 screenshot shows it was open for 15 seconds.
> You didnt run the game.
> ...


sorry bro, im just pretty new to this stuff. I set everything back to defaults in the BIOS. I just dont really know what im doing man.


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 20, 2021)

You need to run the sensors while the game is running so that the application logs the metrics in those conditions. It'll help narrow down the cause of your bottleneck.

BTW also see if your graphics card is thermal throttling (dialing back clocks because the GPU gets too hot). This won't be indicated by just GPU usage. I've never been a fan of those XFX coolers.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You need to run it in 'sensors only' mode to get the relevant screens
> 
> Windows key + shift + s
> use that for snipping tool,  we dont need the whole desktop
> ...


hey how did you get that layout for your hwinfo??



Mussels said:


> Usually that would imply you are CPU limited, and is different to a stutter issue.
> 
> Can i see HWinfo64 screenshots that show your CPU clockspeed and temps, with min max and average visible? First link of my sig has info on it, if needed.
> 
> ...


okay can you show me how you got your HWinfo like that?

So i kinda figured out why my computer is stuttering. Im not sure if this is it but its one of the problems. My vrms are overheating because my bios is pushing my cpu up to 4.2 ghz and it gets too hot. So i dropped it to 4.1 ghz and things seem much smoother, however, there's is still just a little bit of stutter but that could be because i just need to downvolt it or downclock my processor.


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 20, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> hey how did you get that layout for your hwinfo??


Use the expand button(the one with the blue border). It seems you used the strink button(next to it) instead.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> Use the expand button(the one with the blue border). It seems you used the strink button(next to it) instead.
> 
> View attachment 221648


Right but when i expand it, its just a blank grid

For example

Sorry i dont know how to use the snip tool and make it look like how you got it lol

also it says that my motherboard is getting to 94 degrees celcius?


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 20, 2021)

That shows up when you have one column too many i.e. if your existing columns already cover everything.

Clearly that's not true in your case - it should show up in the second column and get rid of the scrollbar in the first.

I don't know why that is and how to fix it - there's no setting to change that.



BaiterSkater said:


> Sorry i dont know how to use the snip tool and make it look like how you got it lol


Use the built-in snipping tool provided with Windows, or a program called Greenshot.


BaiterSkater said:


> also it says that my motherboard is getting to 94 degrees celsius?


Don't know why that is. People don't usually mess with their motherboard heatsink so it shouldn't get that hot.
Post a screenshot of the sensor that shows that.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> That shows up when you have one column too many i.e. if your existing columns already cover everything.
> 
> Clearly that's not true in your case - it should show up in the second column and get rid of the scrollbar in the first.
> 
> ...


The second screenshot says that my system is 94 degrees max


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 20, 2021)

Seems like a hotspot. You need to check your case's airflow. That 50C min temperature is a concern.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 20, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> Seems like a hotspot. You need to check your case's airflow. That 50C min temperature is a concern.


Is that how hot my motherboard gets or something?


----------



## Mussels (Oct 21, 2021)

That system temp at 94C is the problem
It's not documented well, but it seems thats your VRM temperatures, which causes your CPU to throttle.

And now, after taking a break from this thread out of sheer frustration - a rant i hope you listen to.



BaiterSkater said:


> Sorry i dont know how to use the snip tool and make it look like how you got it lol


You literally hold the following keys
Windows key, shift key, S key. Then you click and drag over the part you want captured.

You can also just start the snipping tool from the start menu and click the button there. 
This is why i'm frustrated, I've posted those instructions many times and they've been ignored or glossed over. 
Ask for help if we miss some instructions but good lord don't skip the things we're asking - we asked for a reason. 
You still cant post screenshots containing information, the screens are blank most of the time!
You arent even dragging windows out to show what's inside them.

You're giving us this: Half of what we need. All cut off. How the hell can we help you with that?




Just click the blue arrows in the bottom left til it fills your whole damn screen and post that, then we might get somewhere.

At this rate you're going to be physically modifying the cooling of the VRM's with either fan placement or new thermal pads... if you cant post a screenshot or press three keys on the keyboard at once, this may be beyond you.


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 21, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Just click the blue arrows in the bottom left til it fills your whole damn screen and post that, then we might get somewhere.


He tried that; it doesn't seem to work - i.e. go beyond the first column.

I still think it's a hotspot - the way that system is setup there's a good possibility of that if some fans are omitted.



BaiterSkater said:


> Is that how hot my motherboard gets or something?


A hotspot is when a spot in your case overheats because the fans are not circulating cool air over that spot.
A good example of this is cheap sub-$50 cases which most of the time don't have fans pulling air from the front - that causes high temperatures for the hard drives since the only fan in that case is a back fan and/or a fan on the top of the case(obviously not counting the CPU cooler).


----------



## Udyr (Oct 21, 2021)

After reading this very interesting post, I'm amazed how OP knows about the VRM temps overheating, BIOS config, CPU downvolting and whatnot... but doesn't know how to provide a specific screenshot or use snipping tool... or what a standoff is, assuming OP built the PC by itself.

Sorry if this comment doesn't add to the solution, but this has been a case study for me.


----------



## the54thvoid (Oct 21, 2021)

Don't worry, we're not oblivious to the situation.


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## Mussels (Oct 21, 2021)

Related to that specific motherboard, it's VRM cooling is garbage. It can't handle the 100W TDP chips well at all, and if the OP has blocked airflow to them or damage the thermal pads somehow, that explains the issues.

I have an MSI B450 in the closet for this same reason, it's VRM's were total garbage with my 2700x - needed a 40mm fan screwed onto it, since i had an AIO.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Oct 22, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> Don't worry, we're not oblivious to the situation.


Got eagle eyes myself


----------



## Udyr (Oct 22, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Related to that specific motherboard, it's VRM cooling is garbage. It can't handle the 100W TDP chips well at all, and if the OP has blocked airflow to them or damage the thermal pads somehow, that explains the issues.
> 
> I have an MSI B450 in the closet for this same reason, it's VRM's were total garbage with my 2700x - needed a 40mm fan screwed onto it, since i had an AIO.


Which MSI B450? I got the Tomahawk (non-max) with a 3600 and VRM temps are fine.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 22, 2021)

ok




okay I think i figured it out. I'm sorry, I'm still pretty new to pc building and gaming bc I don't really do it that often. But i have tested my computer on cinebench and the system temps get up to 95 degrees celsius. I tried putting a fan next to the VRMs but it doesn't seem like it helps. I'm not sure if it even is the vrms

Here is the CPU and MOBO Temps







but as i said. My issue is when i play games, they kinda have like micro freezes. Like the gameplay is smooth and such, however, when i turn and move around the game will stutter. Like everything stops and then keeps going. It's really odd


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Oct 22, 2021)

Udyr said:


> Which MSI B450? I got the Tomahawk (non-max) with a 3600 and VRM temps are fine.


I'm doing very well with the same motherboard, with BIOS version 1E for Matisse. The OP has a Pinnacle Ridge. (predecessor)


----------



## Mussels (Oct 22, 2021)

Oh i found out how you broke HWinfo: you disabled "Fixed order"

Click your settings button 



Click layout at the very top



Then tick those boxes and hit restore original order. You told the program to let you manage what went where, and then... didn't.






Udyr said:


> Which MSI B450? I got the Tomahawk (non-max) with a 3600 and VRM temps are fine.


A 3600 uses nowhere near the wattage of a 2700x, which can peak at 140W if PBO is enabled.

Baiter: you need to leave HWinfo open, and RUN THE GAMES
*THEN* take screenshots after you quit the game. AT NO POINT CLOSE HWINFO.

Make sure we can see the CPU temperatures in one, and the GPU temperatures in another


I really, truly think your motherboards VRM is overheating.
*Take a picture of the actual machine, around the CPU Cooler/VRM area*

The b350m mortar is a bottom tier, budget board. It uses a 4 phase VRM setup.
Even my ITX system designed for low power use has 6 phases for the CPU.

They are attached by crappy little push pins, and sit on thermal pads.

My bet, is one of two things.
1. You have zero airflow in the VRM area, and its overheating. Take a photo, show us.

2. You have knocked the VRM heatsink at some point and damaged its thermal pad, resulting in overheating, and VRM thermal throttling.
You will see low CPU temps when this happens since it cant get enough power to heat up.

Top square is VRM area, bottom is chipset. The Chipset area runs cold, and is not an issue here.






This is from a similar MSI board, and the ones that produce all the heat - they need cooling. If the thermal pad is broken, they're going to get hotter than with no heatsink at all.





We need to find out if the VRM's are overheating due to a design flaw with the systems cooling, damaged thermal pads, or it being a shitty mobo that can't handle a 2700x. 
New thermal pads (or simply fixing them if they've moved), improved VRM airflow, or economy PBO settings all could resolve this.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 23, 2021)

during cinebench ^





after cinebench ^









That was a 10 minute cinebench test


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## Mussels (Oct 23, 2021)

Thank you heaps, seriously that's giving us what we need to see.

Your CPU peaked at 131W (looks like PBO is enabled in the BIOS), maxing at 68C - those are typical, *good* numbers for a 2700x.

Your CPU was drawing  140A (amps, not watts) during that test - reddit was saying this boards VRM's can overheat past 100A.

System (aka VRM's) peaked at a flat 90C, which makes me think it's throttling - do you have any leftover computer fans you can stick right onto that?
If a fan blowing onto it doesnt lower the temps, that means the thermal pad is bad and needs replacing (literally may just need to be removed and placed back on, not bought new)


One method to confirm this is one of the few sensors you minimized, showing the average effective clock and core effective clock - if you're VRM throttling and the CPU is bouncing up and down, you'd see this lower than the max value

Reset the stats in HWinfo (the little clock icon, bottom right)* after * starting the cinebench multithreaded test - if these values dont match up then you know its throttling
You can see mine are all roughly the same at 4.4GHz, so no throttling (By tweaking PBO settings, i can get that around 4.6GHz, with 5.05GHz single threaded in gaming)






(You're missing a screw in that bottom photo, into the mobo standoff. Please try and fix that)


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 23, 2021)

So this is what I've found under the VRMs. Idk if any of this is normal. I found moisture under the VRMs which is odd because i never spilt anything on this motherboard. Its quite a sticky substance. No idea what it is.


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## Mussels (Oct 23, 2021)

Damn you're taking this serious, thank you
The moisture is a type of oil leaking from the thermal pads, its absolutely normal but also a sign of them being exposed to high heat - after a very long time (years) at high heat all the oil is gone, they dry out and go crumbly and need replacing

Yes thats normal for them to squish, you can replace them with higher quality ones if you want...  for now flip it over, and try and get full contact on everything
Literally one piece not having full contact there, can cause the VRMs to throttle


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 23, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Damn you're taking this serious, thank you
> 
> Yes thats normal for them to squish, you can replace them with higher quality ones if you want... flip it over, and try and get full contact on everything?
> Literally one piece not having full contact there, can cause the VRMs to throttle


Wait you want me to turn it around or keep it the same way it was on the board? I just wanna make sure i hear you correctly.


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## Mussels (Oct 23, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Wait you want me to turn it around or keep it the same way it was on the board? I just wanna make sure i hear you correctly.


Carefully and slowly peel off the thermal pad (try not to stretch it too much), then turn it over so the indented side is on the heatsink, and the good side is on the motherboard
The contact on the mobo components is whats critical, and the fresh flat side will do that for us


If you measure it while you're there, you can find replacements online to upgrade it later (0.5mm, 1mm, 1.5mm are common)

Edit
'Expensive', top tier example: 15W/k (bigger number transfers heat faster, stock ones usually around 5-7)
GELID SOLUTIONS GP-Ultimate 120×20x 1.0mm Thermal PAD Single Pack


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 23, 2021)

So i just booted after flipping the pad over on my heatsink and noticed my core speed is jumping around alot on cpuz. Is this something weird ?

Edit: 
The core clock speed on hwinfo is jumping from 3.1 ghz to 4.1 ghz. Is that something to be concerned about as well?


----------



## tabascosauz (Oct 23, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> The core clock speed on hwinfo is jumping from 3.1 ghz to 4.1 ghz. Is that something to be concerned about as well?



No, that's just it boosting like every other modern CPU and Ryzen. HWInfo's "Effective Clock" metrics give you a better idea of what the CPU is actually doing. Tip - HWInfo often spazzes out, if it does that then maximize the window then resize it and hopefully the data goes in the right columns. You can also enable Minimize Sensors Instead of Closing in settings (right click tray icon > settings), then it'll keep logging even if you close the window.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the VRM on the B350M Mortar is trash, as it's more middle of the road than anything. It's just that

The heatsink is so tiny that I don't know if you can even cool it down with active airflow
Stock 2700X is allowed to draw 142W like a 12-core 3900X/5900X, you are asking wayyyyy too much of this board, a board that should strictly be limited to 65W CPU like the 2700 or 3700X
Is that picture correct and you have *1 *case fan and 1 CPU fan for airflow? If so you are _really _asking wayyyyy too much of this board
I'd just turn down the power limit to 90W by enabling Eco Mode in the BIOS. But you seem like you might be slightly BIOS-averse, not sure how willing you are. B350M Mortar should still have a visually up-to-date Click BIOS design, so there should be a search function where you can simply type in Eco Mode and enable it.

About throttling potentially causing performance drops, kinda skeptical. The RT8894A on this board is so dumb I don't recall reading any sort of overtemperature protection on its spec sheet, wouldn't expect the PK632BA to have any either. "Overheating" is generally around 100-115C for most discrete mosfets so while 95C is undesirable idk if I would pin the stuttering on it, throttling needs hardware that's at least smart enough to protect itself and I'm not sure the RT8894A is. High temps can negatively affect mosfet performance though I think though


----------



## Mussels (Oct 23, 2021)

Sorry, was off in the real world teaching a new ryzen owner some fancy tricks.

CPU-Z only shows one core at a time, so when they go to sleep (as often as 1000 times a second!) the reading bounces to another core. Thats why HWinfo's min/max/average readings are better.
The board you have was designed BEFORE the 2700x was made. It's VRM cooling just cant keep up, and it was designed for the stock AMD cooler to be blowing air at it.

As long as the thermal pad is making good contact, airflow on the VRM's will actually work.
Step one is to get it as cool as possible, with the adjusted pad next up is just attaching a fan to it.

With the fan attached, we then see what BIOS settings we have available and tweak them to get the max power you can get, without throttling.

Hardware info showed you at 140A and 130W

We can simply limit those to 110A and 100W if your board has PBO options or ECO mode (it may not, sadly) and the problem could be solved. Otherwise, we may need a modest all core overclock like 4.2GHz at a low voltage, to keep those VRM's chill.


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 23, 2021)

Wow guys, I've been browsing forums like this and Tom's for over 10 years and this is stuff even I have never ever come across.

Do you think the VRM overheating could be caused due to the CPU cooler? That is a tower cooler which blows air front to back, not straight down(like Intel's and AMD's stock coolers). That could potentially cause low airflow around the CPU(like in this case) and cause the surrounding components to overheat. Just a speculation.



Mussels said:


> it was designed for the stock AMD cooler to be blowing air at it.


Yeah, this.


----------



## Mussels (Oct 23, 2021)

I'm reading your BIOS manual now, and i'll try and post suggested settings as i find them


I'm unsure if you'll be using the 'normal' or 'advanced' views, so the locations of items may change.
The manual will also be outdated, things may have been added or moved.

Since the manual only lists Ryzen 1000 series features, PBO and ECO mode are not listed. If your BIOS has them, take a photo please

What i can see:

Game mode off. Thats a power booster, opposite of what we need.

OC page:
A-XMP on
CPU features sub menu:
AMD cool and quiet: on
Core C6 state: enabled



cst1992 said:


> Wow guys, I've been browsing forums like this and Tom's for over 10 years and this is stuff even I have never ever come across.
> 
> Do you think the VRM overheating could be caused due to the CPU cooler? That is a tower cooler which blows air front to back, not straight down(like Intel's and AMD's stock coolers). That could potentially cause low airflow around the CPU(like in this case) and cause the surrounding components to overheat. Just a speculation.
> 
> ...


VRM issues were very very common on low end AMD boards in the FX era, and it continued into first gen ryzen as board manufactures saw AMD as the budget option, and made the boards as cheap as possible, aimed at the lower wattage CPU's assuming they'd be used for light office work and such.

This B350M was designed for a 4 core CPU, but AM4 being universally compatible meant that suddenly the 140W capable 2700x could fit in there. MSI was  slow to learn their lesson, they even have some of the worst x570 boards on the market

MSI are not universally bad, but they definitely released a lot of AM4 boards with garbage VRM cooling. Hardware unboxed has many videos on this.
Under the same conditions (All core OC'd 3900x) look at this madness:
MXI MAG x570 Tomahawk? 58c
MSI MPG x570 Gaming edge wifi? 105C
The MSI x570-A pro? 115C




So: whatcha got for cooling those VRMs, and what BIOS settings do you have available for Overclocking and power control? If the latest BIOS added the PBO menus, we're in luck
Edit: a 2 year old reddit thread says that yes, you should have PBO settings in there.
It'll be like Advanced, AMD overclocking, PBO - we want manual control
Maybe 100W PPT, 85A TDC, 110A EDC ?

Eco mode settings be more like
85W PPT, 75A TDC, 90A EDC



cst1992 said:


> Wow guys, I've been browsing forums like this and Tom's for over 10 years and this is stuff even I have never ever come across.
> 
> Do you think the VRM overheating could be caused due to the CPU cooler? That is a tower cooler which blows air front to back, not straight down(like Intel's and AMD's stock coolers). That could potentially cause low airflow around the CPU(like in this case) and cause the surrounding components to overheat. Just a speculation.
> 
> ...


People love finding an answer they approve of ("MSI is trash!" "AMD is bad!" "Red goes faster!") and never actually find the root cause of the problem.
Reddit, facebook etc love finding short easy answers that usually are simply incorrect, or only correct under specific circumstances.
This is 100% an overheating VRM situation, the goal now is to reduce temperatures by increasing cooling, AND reducing the load on the VRMs.


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 23, 2021)

Okay so i disabled PBO, not sure where c6 state is and ECO IS.


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 23, 2021)

Check CPU power states.

I've not used an AMD BIOS before, so I can't help you specifically, but you should be able to find something in power configuration.


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## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> View attachment 222135
> 
> Okay so i disabled PBO, not sure where c6 state is and ECO IS.


Global C-states is under a "CPU features" for me (and should be on - however some boards have C6 as a seperate option instead of all in one)
Eco is only available on some boards, with some CPU's, when PBO is on

What you have done there by disabling PBO, is drop that 140W to 105W (Run HWinfo and Cinebench again) - let's see the current/amperage/temps again

If PBO disabled doesnt cool things enough, we turn it back on and find the custom/manual options within it, and enter values ourselves


----------



## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

okay so this is hwinfo after I fixed all the settings i could in the BIOS. I only found a PBO option in my BIOS, sadly.


----------



## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

Damn, system (VRM) is still at 90C - and still seeing 131W CPU usage
If you reset HWinfo after starting cinebench, then the effective clocks tell us a story: the minimum and average are not 3.9GHz, they're dropping off to impossible numbers as the cores shut down to save power (50Mhz and 1.9Mhz are not physically possible, so they're readings from a throttled core)


So PBO only has on/off, no advanced or custom menus?

If theres not, you're stick with either adding cooling to the VRM's, or an all core overclock designed to get those wattage and amperage figures down
We can see your board is running 1.352v for 3.9Ghz, which is more voltage than it needs there for sure - the final, imperfect option would be to try for a 4GHz all core OC with as low voltage as possible, and get the amps and watts under 100 and see how the VRMs go


----------



## tabascosauz (Oct 24, 2021)

Mussels said:


> (50Mhz and 1.9Mhz are not physically possible, so they're readings from a throttled core)



Uh no, it's certainly possible, in fact it's normal behaviour for Effective Clock at idle for a properly idling CPU.........that's kind of the point of Effective Clock, and has nothing to do with entire cores being throttled. Total CPU usage is recorded at 100% so the CPU is being fully loaded as it should during Cinebench.





The problem here is that it's hard to tell whether 131W is:

Normal behaviour for a 2700X in CB R23 (on Ryzen 5000 it's common to see a hair under 142W during R23 as it doesn't always max out stock power)
"Throttling" from Precision Boost as the CPU gets hot but doesn't hit Tjunction (I can't remember if the boost algorithm was that smart back then for Pinnacle CPUs)
VRM throttling (again, impossible to tell as iirc the controller is dumb, there is no PROCHOT EXT flag being tripped, and it's nowhere near 100C, etc.)


----------



## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Uh no, it's certainly possible, in fact it's normal behaviour for Effective Clock at idle for a properly idling CPU.........that's kind of the point of Effective Clock, and has nothing to do with entire cores being throttled. Total CPU usage is recorded at 100% so the CPU is being fully loaded as it should during Cinebench.
> 
> View attachment 222164
> 
> ...


You missed an earlier post where i wanted him to reset the values while the test was running, so there'd be no idle results from before the testing
It's one method to see clock stretching

2700x is meant to be 105W with PBO disabled, that's an issue with running a zen+ on a first gen board - it doesnt support PBO properly.
I owned one of these MSI B350's as my very first ryzen board, sold it upgraded to an MSI B450 to get NVME support only to find they still did VRM's really badly. I still have that B450 as my test bench/spare parts. (This is still 4+2... but without even a heatsink)


Spoiler









You can find list upon list of tested VRM's and ranking the boards, and unfortunately many MSI boards like these rank at the bottom. (i lost the complete 300 series list, but this 450 has the same setup)
Motherboard VRM Tier List AMD | Tech Other | Carbonite


----------



## tabascosauz (Oct 24, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You missed an earlier post where i wanted him to reset the values while the test was running, so there'd be no idle results from before the testing
> It's one method to see clock stretching



I'm fully aware of that. OP clearly didn't listen to you, because the Average column for Effective Clock shows 2.6GHz. The CPU is running the test at ~3.9GHz without thermal throttling, so obviously there's some appreciable amount of idle downtime included in HWInfo's data to bring down the average clock over the logging period to 2.6GHz.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

Im so confused..


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## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Im so confused..


That's okay, discussions happen that aren't always relevant and may go over your head... and i make mistakes too (which is why i edit my posts a lot)

With HWinfo, If you start it after cinebench testing begins and take a screenshot during the testing, the current (now) and average (while tested) results are helpful
If you start HWinfo before, or take the screenshot after those values are now including idle and may not be useful
(Things like max temperature are useful, always)

What you need to focus on:
1. Can you put a fan onto that VRM heatsink or not
2. Can you enable manual PBO settings, or is it just on/off
3. If you cant tweak PBO, lets do an all core overclock of 4GHz at say 1.1V, and run the HWinfo/cinebench testing again.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

I put one of my case fans above the VRM to cool it off. I think PBO is just enable, disable, or auto. so now I should do a OC to 4 GHz at 1.1V in the BIOS and then run cinebench and show you guys the stats again?


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## RJARRRPCGP (Oct 24, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You missed an earlier post where i wanted him to reset the values while the test was running, so there'd be no idle results from before the testing
> It's one method to see clock stretching
> 
> 2700x is meant to be 105W with PBO disabled, that's an issue with running a zen+ on a first gen board - it doesnt support PBO properly.
> ...


That B450 motherboard is poop! (in the photo) Reminds me of the AM3 days and also looks like something I would expect on an A320-class motherboard. Looks at least almost as bad as an A68 motherboard!


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

My mistake, PBO does have a manual option in my BIOS. What should I set ?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 24, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> Wow guys, I've been browsing forums like this and Tom's for over 10 years and this is stuff even I have never ever come across.
> 
> Do you think the VRM overheating could be caused due to the CPU cooler? That is a tower cooler which blows air front to back, not straight down(like Intel's and AMD's stock coolers). That could potentially cause low airflow around the CPU(like in this case) and cause the surrounding components to overheat. Just a speculation.
> 
> ...


No because my vrm on my board would be overheating then...



Mussels said:


> That's okay, discussions happen that aren't always relevant and may go over your head... and i make mistakes too (which is why i edit my posts a lot)
> 
> With HWinfo, If you start it after cinebench testing begins and take a screenshot during the testing, the current (now) and average (while tested) results are helpful
> If you start HWinfo before, or take the screenshot after those values are now including idle and may not be useful
> ...


Wow for this person to be able to pull a heatsink off the vrm tells me the name itself holds true (baiter)


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## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

Yes! you have manual settings!



These are the ECO mode settings the newer boards have, try these


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Yes! you have manual settings!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks alot


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## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

Those ECO settings will reduce the performance of your CPU somewhat, but should be absolutely within the limits of that mobo


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## cst1992 (Oct 24, 2021)

This should at least take the edge off. What VRM temps should be expected? 70? 75?



RJARRRPCGP said:


> That B450 motherboard is poop!


I'm hesitant to go with MSi for my next motherboard, because they don't always clearly state the specifications of their boards. For example, if you wanted to know how many power phases a given motherboard has, for half of them you just won't find that information anywhere. So it's hard to know if you're getting a gem or a dud.


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## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> This should at least take the edge off. What VRM temps should be expected? 70? 75?
> 
> 
> I'm hesitant to go with MSi for my next motherboard, because they don't always clearly state the specifications of their boards. For example, if you wanted to know how many power phases a given motherboard has, for half of them you just won't find that information anywhere. So it's hard to know if you're getting a gem or a dud.


Anything under 80C, i guess.
The best boards (which are often over priced) hang around 60C, even without fans.
It's not like we're worried about the board dying here, we just want the throttling to stop so performance stays constant

Baiter: dont try and mix and match settings btw, PBO (and therefore these settings) will NOT work if you do the all core overclock we mentioned earlier. It's one or the other, not both.


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## RJARRRPCGP (Oct 24, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> This should at least take the edge off. What VRM temps should be expected? 70? 75?
> 
> 
> I'm hesitant to go with MSi for my next motherboard, because they don't always clearly state the specifications of their boards. For example, if you wanted to know how many power phases a given motherboard has, for half of them you just won't find that information anywhere. So it's hard to know if you're getting a gem or a dud.


Tomahawks are not poop like that one is. Looks like their proper motherboards are not even close to temps like that in most cases. MSI didn't pull a bad one anywhere near that bad with the B450 Tomahawk, TMK. The B550 Tomahawks look promising as well, just like their Z490 Tomahawks. Looked like MSI's worst era was during the AM3/+ era.

Before my first Ryzen build and first Intel build in the 2020s, which are both MSI, I have been going with Asus. (Except my A88X FM2+ motherboard, which is Gigabyte)

For that early Ryzen, I would try to get an MSI B450 Tomahawk Max. I don't know if their later motherboards can even support a Pinnacle Ridge.


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## cst1992 (Oct 24, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> For that early Ryzen, I would try to get an MSI B450 Tomahawk Max. I don't know if their later motherboards can even support a Pinnacle Ridge.


A friend of mine has a B450 Tomahawk Max and a 3800x. He bought the system prebuilt so I don't know if he had to do a BIOS update.


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## RJARRRPCGP (Oct 24, 2021)

I have the "vanilla" B450 Tomahawk, but it's been working well with BIOS version 1E. (2020) Everything else is in my specs list.

CPB and PBO are tempting me! Looks like CPB can help with gaming.


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## HD64G (Oct 24, 2021)

cTDP limit control is the only thing to be adjusted to lower max power draw in the CPU. If at auto, it goes to 142W for 2700X (using the PBO basic limit). It needs to be adjusted from 105W (max non-auto) and lower until system temp reaches <80C..


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 24, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Wow for this person to be able to pull a heatsink off the vrm tells me the name itself holds true (baiter)


 To be fair my 2 year old niece would have it off if you left her with a board and the correct screwdriver


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 24, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> To be fair my 2 year old niece would have it off if you left her with a board and the correct screwdriver


Well for stand offs not being placed at all and the heatsink removal tells me otherwise. Also I built a Rollback/flatbed wrecker when I was 5 out of a mix of legos, not a kit)


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

so the temps have lowered drastically now that i set PBO to manual. I played bfV and it played pretty smooth, however, there was some input lag and such. The game was pretty slow, for the lack of better words.

is there any way i can get a little more performance out of my rig? Or is that asking too much?


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## Mussels (Oct 24, 2021)

System at 56C max and CPU at 58C is finally the change we were looking for
You're getting 3.4-3.9GHz there which while not peak performance, is still heaps faster than BFV requires
Those eco numbers are low, raise them each by 10 since the VRM's are so cold and you should still be okay

As for the input lag... that's a whole other complicated situation, the most obvious of which is to do a clean driver install for your GPU, resetting all settings, and reset all your game settings to 1920x1080 at low settings, Vsync off in game

Some people do it the hard way, but you can just disconnect from the internet, uninstall the GPU driver in windows apps and features, and then reinstall it from the downloaded .exe (download it BEFORE you disconnect the net) of the latest driver
Radeon™ RX 580 Drivers & Support | AMD

If the input lag is gone, you can raise quality settings til you're happy, if not, we'll figure things out from there


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 24, 2021)

alright. So you want me to raise each of the numbers in PBO by 10?





these are the stats after i raised PBO settings





these are the stats from playing a game of apex

After I made those changes to my BIOS, the games have gotten much smoother and cleaner. I am just now reinstalling my GPU drivers. My games kinda seem like theyre getting low fps. My gameplay is very choppy and slow. Sometimes the picture is solid and sometimes it not.


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## Mussels (Oct 25, 2021)

Basically, we've sorted out the CPU and its performance so it wont have wild spikes


The settings you use in game can cause dips for sure, because while an RX580 is still absolutely usable (My dad still games well on his), they sure cant handle modern games at max settings.
Any changes you've made to the AMD driver could also have the same effect, and rather than rely on remembering what's been changed a clean install of the latest driver would be simpler.

Next time you'll need to move HWinfo to show the GPU's settings and temps, preferable with the game running in windowed mode so we can see the game, an FPS counter, and HWinfos readings at the same time


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 25, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Basically, we've sorted out the CPU and its performance so it wont have wild spikes
> 
> 
> The settings you use in game can cause dips for sure, because while an RX580 is still absolutely usable (My dad still games well on his), they sure cant handle modern games at max settings.
> ...






Okay. Reinstalling


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 26, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Basically, we've sorted out the CPU and its performance so it wont have wild spikes
> 
> 
> The settings you use in game can cause dips for sure, because while an RX580 is still absolutely usable (My dad still games well on his), they sure cant handle modern games at max settings.
> ...


hey, is there any way I can record my screen to show you whats going on in my games?





i ran heaven benchmark and got alot of fps drops


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## Mussels (Oct 26, 2021)

Yeah, theres recording software built into your AMD drivers, upload the finished file to youtube as an unlisted video
it'll be a huge file, if you have an internet cap

Seeing the temp flatline at 75C makes me wonder if thats a thermal throttle - if you record a video you better make sure all of the GPU readings are on screen at the time, or it'll be a big waste of effort.



Why do you have "GPU liquid temperature" as a reading for an RX580?
Edit: okay thats a driver bug sending glitched info back to Hwinfo


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 26, 2021)

Wait whats a thermal throttle ?


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## Mussels (Oct 26, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Wait whats a thermal throttle ?


We are 6 pages in, this has been discussed dozens of times with you.

Why, WHY are you only asking this now


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## Udyr (Oct 26, 2021)

Mussels said:


> We are 6 pages in, this has been discussed dozens of times with you.
> 
> Why, WHY are you only asking this now


...or, a simple google/duckduck/bing search to provide a quick answer instead of waiting for someone else to explain it in layman's terms to an "expert" in some fields of PC, but completely oblivious to simpler ones.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 26, 2021)

Okay. I googled it and it seems like it is doing that because the fans seem to make alot of noise alot. What can i do to fix that?





okay so i got it in my uploads on youtube. Not sure how to make it unlisted..

oh nvm i found it.









okay here is my benchmark for my GPU.


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## chrcoluk (Oct 26, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Well I thought it might be a gpu issue because my gpu never stayes at 100% usage
> 
> So i ordered some new standoffs and I'm not really sure what to do about my performance issues. Can anyone help me out there?
> 
> i noticed that when im playing a game my gpu usage never goes up to 100%


I dont think I have ever seen my gpu report 100% usage, I would say anything above 90% is potential bottleneck, especially above 95%.

Remember the number is an average over the polling period so e.g. 96% could mean 100% half the time and 92% the other half of the time.

I am playing Tales of Berseria currently with 4xSGSSAA and there is one spot in the game that makes my 3080 sweat hard, I drop frames at 94% polled usage and upwards, with it been more dropped the higher it is.

For me its a tell tale when its cpu, cpu bottlenecking tends to not be pretty, a sharp stutter that can almost feel like a freeze, laggy pop in's etc.  Monitoring on a hardware monitor gives a clearer picture but you definitely dont need to be pegged at 100% to be bottlenecking.  If you have VRR then gpu bottlenecking probably not even noticeable at all.


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## Mussels (Oct 27, 2021)

Thermal throttle is when things overheat and slow themselves down. 
You know... like the VRM's we spent 4 pages diagnosing and working on cooling down.
If the device has fans, the fans usually max out, trying to fix it.


You're gunna need new thermal paste, and then remove your GPU heatsink to replace the existing thermal paste.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Thermal throttle is when things overheat and slow themselves down.
> You know... like the VRM's we spent 4 pages diagnosing and working on cooling down.
> If the device has fans, the fans usually max out, trying to fix it.
> 
> ...


I got thermal paste


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## cvaldes (Oct 27, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> I got thermal paste


Well it's off to YouTube for you!

Find a video of someone removing the cooler from the same model graphics card as yours.

You still have not properly filled out your system specs; there is no specific mention of your graphics card manufacturer and model. Aftermarket graphics card manufacturers almost always make several product lines (for example, Asus has Phoenix, Dual, KO, TUF Gaming, ROG Strix) that might have the same GPU but will have different PCB form factors and cooler designs.

That means don't watch a video of someone removing the cooler from a Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 580 if you have an ASUS TUF Gaming Radeon RX 580. The cooler designs will be different, meaning the screws will be in different places and possibly other components like fan cables, etc. If you have an ASUS TUF Gaming Radeon RX 580, watch a video of someone removing the cooler from an ASUS TUF Gaming Radeon RX 580. Don't watch a video of a guy doing it on an MSI RX 560, or a Sapphire RX 550, or an ASUS TUF Gaming Radeon RX 5700 XT.

You will have to be very meticulous about tracking screws.

Also, most graphics card manufacturers use thermal pads on key components that can't have thermal paste applied to them. Ideally you would have some new thermal pads in different thicknesses on hand to replace any original thermal pads that have deteriorated.

When you're replaced all of the thermal interfaces (pastes and pads), you'll need to reassemble your card, meaning reversing all of the steps you watched in the video.

Without a doubt most people who post such videos on YouTube have years -- sometimes decades -- of experience.

Watch the video several times and decide wisely whether or not you have the technical ability to follow the procedure. If you bake cookies and bungle it, you can just buy new ingredients and start a new batch; flour, eggs and sugar aren't expensive. With today's semiconductor shortage situation, it is unlikely you will buy more GPUs until you figure out how to do this.

Best of luck.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> Well it's off to YouTube for you!
> 
> Find a video of someone removing the cooler from the same model graphics card as yours.
> 
> ...


Is there a way to figure out what kind of gpu i have ?



BaiterSkater said:


> Is there a way to figure out what kind of gpu i have ?


What kind of rx 580?


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## Mussels (Oct 27, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> I got thermal paste


What type?
I mean almost any will work, but theres a lot of variety

Take the GPU out and read the labels on it

A lot of RX 580's have literally 4 main screws in the center back and the heatsink pops off, but some have more than need to be removed


Almost all of them have extra parts that you DONT need to unscrew, so not every screw needs removing - just the main heatsink off the GPU


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## cvaldes (Oct 27, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Is there a way to figure out what kind of gpu i have ?


Your reading comprehension needs work.

This was covered back on page 1, post #24.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> Your reading comprehension needs work.
> 
> This was covered back on page 1, post #24.


I found out. I didnt know you could use gpuz to search it up. So i use the thermal paste for my cpu. I can just use that for it ??


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## Mussels (Oct 27, 2021)

Yes, the same thermal paste is used for CPU's and GPU's. Be nice to know what type you have, your knowledge is erratic so i dont know if you're fine with the application or if you'll squirt the whole tube on there.

Heres an XFX RX470
The rest of the info tells us what exact model and variant it is





This is the stupidly simple heatsink it has: the four in the middle that make a square let the heatsink pop off for new thermal paste, the smaller two are for the GPU's VRM heatsink (and should be left alone)
(and the ones with no screw head visible, are on the other side for removing the black cover)


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## cvaldes (Oct 27, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> I found out. I didnt know you could use gpuz to search it up.


The graphics card model number would also show up on the original retail box. It would look very similar to the sticker on the card pictured directly above.

It's actually worth taking a photo of the board and retail box when you first get it. That way if you tossed the box you don't have to crack open the case and remove the graphics card to see what the serial number is.

If you purchased the graphics card online from a reputable retailer, quite likely at least the model number would be somewhere on the archived invoice. I know some mom-and-pop shops will include the serial number on the printed invoice to prevent people from returning a different part.

So yeah, there are a multitude of ways to figure out what model number your card is.

This isn't specific to graphics cards. Your motherboard has a serial number, your m.2 SSD has one, CPU, memory sticks, et cetera ad nauseam.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

Okay so this is what the thermal pads loom like


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## Mussels (Oct 27, 2021)

Oh jesus, that thermal pad needs to be straightened out for sure - every memory chip must have thermal pad contact to the heatsink

And the thermal paste looks dried out, fairly typical - clean it off both ends (carefully! paper towel is fine, but be gentle) and put a small amount of the fresh paste on


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

This was after i replaced all the thermal pads with thermal paste. Games were still stuttering as usual. Not sure what it could be at this point.









These were after running heaven benchmark. The benchmark was stuttering like crazy this time. The frame wouls stop and then leave off where it was during the benchmark. I don't understand what it's doing.


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## Tatty_One (Oct 27, 2021)

You may need pads not paste, the whole point of a pad is so that it can make contact with the heatsink, by putting paste it may be that there is no contact and therefore nowhere for the heat to dissipate, although I have never owned a 580 so perhaps it won't be a problem.


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## HD64G (Oct 27, 2021)

I suspect the Precision Boost is off since the CPU isn't boosting over its base clock at all.


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

HD64G said:


> I suspect the Precision Boost is off since the CPU isn't boosting over its base clock at all.


Well should i oc??


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## Salvo39 (Oct 27, 2021)

thebluebumblebee said:


> How is that motherboard installed in the case??????


My man asking the real questions here.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Oct 27, 2021)

Do you have AMD enhanced sync enabled?
Do you have AMD Anti-Lag on?
Do you have your fans setup with intake and exhaust?
Is this in every game?
Do you have a dog?
If so is he a good boy?


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## BaiterSkater (Oct 27, 2021)

JMcSlobs said:


> Do you have AMD enhanced sync enabled?
> Do you have AMD Anti-Lag on?
> Do you have your fans setup with intake and exhaust?
> Is this in every game?
> ...


No, no, idk, yes, yes, and yes


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## cvaldes (Oct 27, 2021)

Tatty_One said:


> You may need pads not paste, the whole point of a pad is so that it can make contact with the heatsink, by putting paste it may be that there is no contact and therefore nowhere for the heat to dissipate, although I have never owned a 580 so perhaps it won't be a problem.


This makes zero sense.

*LOOK* at the OP's board (post #157). The thermal paste is on both the GPU and the heatsink. It rolled off the AIB partner's manufacturing line that way. It was designed to have thermal paste applied to the GPU.

The thermal pads that are there were also intended to be used (VRAM chips mostly).

Are you implying that your mechanical engineering acumen is better than AMD's hardware engineering staff?

For what it's worth, I own a Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 580. I deshrouded it six months ago and it too had thermal paste on the GPU. I chose to replace it with new thermal paste and it works fine. I must have gotten lucky, eh?


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## Deleted member 202104 (Oct 27, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> This makes zero sense.
> 
> *LOOK* at the OP's board (post #157). The thermal paste is on both the GPU and the heatsink. It rolled off the AIB partner's manufacturing line that way. It was designed to have thermal paste applied to the GPU.
> 
> ...



You may have missed where the OP stated they replaced the existing pads with paste.



BaiterSkater said:


> This was after i replaced all the thermal pads with thermal paste. Games were still stuttering as usual. Not sure what it could be at this point.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Oct 27, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> No, no, idk, yes, yes, and yes


Try turning on Anti-Lag it can help with input lag.
Enhanced sync is mostly crap and can cause stuttering..not always but it happens.
If your case isn't being properly exhausted it could cause your system to throttle down when hit with a heavy load.

I'd try a steady clock setting...maybe 3.8ghz and AMD Anti-Lag enabled.
Efficiency goes a long way with Ryzen... basically you want your voltages to be just high enough to work properly.
And definitely make sure your case is properly ventilated.


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## cvaldes (Oct 27, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> You may have missed where the OP stated they replaced the existing pads with paste.


I totally missed that.

Wow.

Now I will direct the following question to the OP:

Do you believe you have the mechanical engineering knowledge to change the thermal pads to paste, pads that were deliberately installed by the AIB partner's manufacturing line personnel? Thermal pads which were likely under the guidelines set forth by AMD's hardware engineering staff?

I feel like this discussion has been an utter waste of my time. I hereby bow out of further participation in this thread.

Best of luck, folks.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Oct 27, 2021)

Pads for sure...paste isn't going to stay put with that kind of gap.

It definitely sounds like an overheating issue.
Get pads, make sure BIOS is up to date, check fan placement and direction and turn on Anti-Lag.

You had this issue prior to using paste so using paste didn't cause the issue it just exacerbated the issue imo.


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## HD64G (Oct 27, 2021)

BaiterSkater said:


> Well should i oc??


I didn't mean the PBO that means oc. I mean the basic boost function of the CPU that might have been turned off and that hampers performance seriously.


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## Mussels (Oct 27, 2021)

"This was after i replaced all the thermal pads with thermal paste. Games were still stuttering as usual. Not sure what it could be at this point."


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
DO. NOT. DO. THAT.
Thermal pads CAN NOT be replaced with thermal paste, at no point were you told to do that!!!


Thermal pads are thick, thermal paste is not. Everywhere you did that to is no longer cooled. Clean all that paste off, and if you threw out those thermal pads do not use the GPU until they're replaced.



BaiterSkater said:


> Well should i oc??


Holy fuck no, after 5 pages of having to fix your CPU from drawing too much power, NO.



JMcSlobs said:


> Try turning on Anti-Lag it can help with input lag.
> Enhanced sync is mostly crap and can cause stuttering..not always but it happens.
> If your case isn't being properly exhausted it could cause your system to throttle down when hit with a heavy load.
> 
> ...


dude. NO. We spent all this time fixing his overheating VRMs, try reading a read before offering advice counter to everything so far.


Baiter: take your PC to a shop. This kind of work is beyond you and you will destroy your PC since you can not, and will not follow any instructions.


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