# NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 Founders Edition



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

GeForce RTX 4080 launches today and offers fantastic gaming performance at 4K, with highest details. In our RTX 4080 Founders Edition review, we confirm that NVIDIA's new $1200 card beats the last-generation flagship RTX 3090 Ti conclusively, both in performance and value.

*Show full review*


----------



## Xebec (Nov 15, 2022)

4090 is $2400?


----------



## LFaWolf (Nov 15, 2022)

I am impressed with how well it scales with the resolution and energy efficiency. Good if you have the money, but could probably wait a bit for the AMD reviews to make a purchasing decision.


----------



## Hyderz (Nov 15, 2022)

Nice review! Impressive Performance but ill pass on this card..


----------



## Niceumemu (Nov 15, 2022)

Anyone buying anything from Nvidia right now has more money than sense


----------



## dj-electric (Nov 15, 2022)

Something to quickly note - notice how all 4080 models are based on 4090 designs.
This is done quite purposefully out of NVIDIA's will to keep the cards large and manacing. Notice how over-designed the coolers are for the power output, and how these could have ended up being significantly smaller and more case-friendly.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 15, 2022)

Ada is still taking the same hit as Ampere when running RT, at least at 1440p (the resolution I'm interested in). With RT on, both Ampere and Ada take approx a 44/43% hit in control, and a 49/47% hit in Cyberpunk. That kind of suggests the raw RT performance of Ada is not improved over Ampere - the actual grunt of the card is better.

Clearly an incredibly good card but the raw RT numbers means it still tanks by the same amount as Ampere.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

Xebec said:


> 4090 is $2400?


Yes, it is now .. I checked Newegg yesterday ..and yes I was like "WTF" too


----------



## Vipeax (Nov 15, 2022)

Is Newegg the FE vendor in the USA? Pricing hasn't changed in the EU. $2400 would have been 2800 euro with VAT, instead of 1969. Meh.


----------



## LFaWolf (Nov 15, 2022)

For those that are math challenged, compared to 3080 10GB, it is (100-67)/67 = 49% faster in 4K, and at a cost of ($1200-$700)/$700=71% increase in price. You decide if it is worth it for you.


----------



## ThrashZone (Nov 15, 2022)

Xebec said:


> 4090 is $2400?


Hi,
That's messed up


----------



## aciDev (Nov 15, 2022)

Italy, now, including 22% VAT.


----------



## ShiningSapphire (Nov 15, 2022)

5800X in test setup...again huge bottleneck and flattened results especially in 1080p/1440p.


----------



## JATownes (Nov 15, 2022)

Not a bad card, but not a great value proposition either if you already have a RTX3xxx or RX6xxx series card.  

Going to skip this generation for GPU and CPU I think.  Just not worth the upgrade costs for performance uplift right now.


----------



## Pumper (Nov 15, 2022)

Well, the performance is way closer to 4090 than the spec difference suggests, but the pricing is whack.
3080 - 47% of the 3090 price for 91% the performance in 4K
4080 - 75% of the 4090 price for 79% the performance in 4K

That's even without taking into account that the 4080 is worse value than the 3080, giving 50% more fps for 70% price increase.

What a turd.


----------



## Ayhamb99 (Nov 15, 2022)

@W1zzard Great review as always! 

The card's performance and efficiency gains over the 3080 would be impressive but that becomes irrelevant when the next generation 80 card also come with around a 70% increase in price... I am really hoping that AMD's 7900 XTX and 7900 XT and Intel's future GPU cards really bring it and kick Nvidia's butt because at this point this is ridiculous with the insane prices.


----------



## jt94 (Nov 15, 2022)

I usually agree with TPU, but not in this case. The 4080 can't be so highly regarded when factoring in the price. That alone is the one of the biggest factors in most people's purchasing decisions, and this card represents a truly horrible value. Giving it such a glowing review, such as 5 stars, and glossing over the woeful value is a dangerous precedent of ignoring said problem. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

ShiningSapphire said:


> 5800X in test setup...again huge bottleneck and flattened results especially in 1080p/1440p.











						RTX 4090 & 53 Games: Ryzen 7 5800X vs Ryzen 7 5800X3D Review
					

How much performance can you gain with Ryzen 7 5800X3D over the non-3DV Cache Ryzen 7 5800X when using the mighty GeForce RTX 4090? Our review has the answer, we test 53 games at three resolutions.




					www.techpowerup.com
				



"HUGE"


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Nov 15, 2022)

ShiningSapphire said:


> 5800X in test setup...again huge bottleneck and flattened results especially in 1080p/1440p.


W1zzard has already stated hes working on anew benchmark build, but rebenching everything will take time.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

aciDev said:


> View attachment 270053Italy, now, including 22% VAT.


FE is in stock in Italy? Here it sold out in 20 minutes and was never replenished again


----------



## Vipeax (Nov 15, 2022)

4090 FE is a better buy than a 4080 FE with the 4080 being 75% of the price.


Pumper said:


> Well, the performance is way closer to 4090 than the spec difference suggests, but the pricing is whack.
> 3080 - 47% of the 3090 price for 91% the performance in 4K
> 4080 - 75% of the 4090 price for 79% the performance in 4K
> 
> What a turd.


The 4090 is CPU limited in those test results. They're the same numbers as the original review by the looks of it. The 4090 would exceed the 33% if it weren't for the CPU.



W1zzard said:


> FE is in stock?


Usually it is for a few hours for BE/FR residents when stock drops (like today).


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

I'm happy to adjust 4090 pricing if someone sends me a USA in-stock link with a better price

edit: any 4090, not FE


----------



## ThrashZone (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> I'm happy to adjust 4090 FE pricing if someone sends me a USA in-stock link with a better price


Hi,
In stock ?
Bestbuy have exclusives on these too ?
Stand in line only


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> In stock ?
> Bestbuy have exclusives on these too ?
> Stand in line only


sorry .. i meant any 4090.. fixed my original post


----------



## 64K (Nov 15, 2022)

Nice job Nvidia. The price is too high but other than that this card looks very good.


----------



## ShiningSapphire (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> RTX 4090 & 53 Games: Core i9-13900K vs Ryzen 7 5800X3D Review
> 
> 
> Intel's new 13900K offers amazing gaming performance, thanks to improvements to caches, IPC and higher operating frequencies. But is that enough to beat the 3DV Cache-powered AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D? What about platform cost?
> ...


5800X3D isn't 5800X?
Here you can see the differences in the tests focused on the graphic locations in games (not built-in benchmarks at any kind). 
Overclocked 13900K 5600/4600 P/E cores, uncore 4500. Memory 6600 MHz CL 34-42-42-62.
5% here vs 21% there in 1080p in compare to 4090 clearly indicates bottleneck. 4K is similar...about 25-30%. Ofc these are cards for 4K but if you want to test further in 1080p it would be highly reccomended to change platform.








						Test kart graficznych NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 vs GeForce RTX 3090 Ti - Byłaby rewelacja, gdyby nie zaporowa cena | PurePC.pl
					

Test kart graficznych NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 vs GeForce RTX 3090 Ti - Byłaby rewelacja, gdyby nie zaporowa cena (strona 34) Test i recenzja kart graficznych NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 vs GeForce RTX 3090 Ti - Byłaby rewelacja, gdyby nie wysoka cena. Ponad 2 razy wyższa od GeForce RTX 3080.




					www.purepc.pl


----------



## dayne878 (Nov 15, 2022)

Very nice performance but as others have said that price is horrendous compared to the performance you get. I recently got a 3080ti and although the 4080 blows it out of the water at 1440p I'm more tempted to wait for the 4080ti and/or for 4080 prices to drop before possibly upgrading. If they'd done the 4080 at $999 USD and then the 4080ti next year at $1199 or something that would have been another story.


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 15, 2022)

Thanks for the timely review @W1zzard. It seems like the 4090 is being held back by the CPU even at 4K or the 4080 would be further behind. In games that scale properly, the 4080 is further behind than the average, e.g. The Witcher 3, and Control. The difference between the two is borne out in games that make heavier than usual use of Ray Tracing, e.g. Control, and CyberPunk. In Control, the 4090 is _50% faster in Ray Tracing at UHD_.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> RTX 4090 & 53 Games: Ryzen 7 5800X vs Ryzen 7 5800X3D Review
> 
> 
> How much performance can you gain with Ryzen 7 5800X3D over the non-3DV Cache Ryzen 7 5800X when using the mighty GeForce RTX 4090? Our review has the answer, we test 53 games at three resolutions.
> ...


Nice review and while not huge, 6.8% is quite significant.
Also explains (besides other possibilities) that the gap to 4090 is about 7% smaller than, say, at computerbase, while RT gap figures are much closer.


----------



## rrrrex (Nov 15, 2022)

One month after 4090 release, but every version of 4080 has that stupidly big 3*8pin to 12pin cable.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

Looks pretty good - the 7900 XT and XTX reviews will be _really_ interesting. $1200 MSRP is _way_ too high though, sorry.


----------



## Eva01Master (Nov 15, 2022)

I didn't expect it to be this fast, that price, though...


----------



## dir_d (Nov 15, 2022)

Thank you for your efforts W1zzard, i now await your 7900XTX review.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

rrrrex said:


> One month after 4090 release, but every version of 4080 has that stupidly big 3*8pin to 12pin cable.


... what else would they have? One month is just about the time it takes to ship the boxes from the East Asian warehouses they're put in after production and to the US and Western markets. Are you actually suggesting that they might have changed the power connector within that time? 'Cause that's nowhere near possible.


----------



## ShiningSapphire (Nov 15, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Looks pretty good - the 7900 XT and XTX reviews will be _really_ interesting. $1200 MSRP is _way_ too high though, sorry.


Price is high because Nvidia wants to force potential buyers to take the 4090 instead for not much more.


----------



## JATownes (Nov 15, 2022)

I admittedly haven't been on the lookout, but after a quick look here in West Texas, Wizz appears to be correct.  If it's at MSRP, it's out of stock. If it's in stock, it's $2k+.


----------



## aciDev (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> FE is in stock in Italy? Here it sold out in 20 minutes and was never replenished again


Also in France and Spain, it's the same retailer*.*


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Nov 15, 2022)

Good card, but we as a community need to give Nvidia a reality check with this pricing. 80 series card should not be over $1k


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

ShiningSapphire said:


> Price is high because Nvidia wants to force potential buyers to take the 4090 instead for not much more.


True, but the 4090 is also ridiculously priced, so the point still stands. GPUs above $1000 will never be anything but idiotic. Even $1000 GPUs are _stupid_. $200 GPUs are great. Between there the spectrum kind of fills itself out.


----------



## Tech Ninja (Nov 15, 2022)

As a long time Nvidia supporter I love all the new tech and performance, but the prices are too much.  There is actually a chance I might go AMD for the 1st time since the 15+ year old 5000 series.  Which is annoying because DLSS 3.0 and RTX are amazing.  Or I might stay with my 2080 another Gen!


----------



## ThrashZone (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> sorry .. i meant any 4090.. fixed my original post


Hi,
Yep bestbuy wait in line or waiting list and b & h
Scalpers get the first releases unfortunately 









						RTX 4090 | B&H Photo Video
					

Your source for RTX 4090 including popular models like GeForce RTX 4090. Visit B&H for  prices, awesome selection and service.




					www.bhphotovideo.com


----------



## Vipeax (Nov 15, 2022)

JATownes said:


> I admittedly haven't been on the lookout, but after a quick look here in West Texas, Wizz appears to be correct.  If it's at MSRP, it's out of stock. If it's in stock, it's $2k+.


Can you blame the vendor for not being able to push out enough of them at launch to keep everyone saturated? If they did that, they would not sell anything into the future and consumers would wait for all production to be finished. It's not like you can never order them for MSRP, but you have to be on the lookout. Just like a PS5, for 2 years already...


----------



## arestavo (Nov 15, 2022)

Looking forward to seeing 7900XTX benchmarks to see what I can get for $200+ less, vs the green giant's $1200 80 series cash grab.


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 15, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Looks pretty good - the 7900 XT and XTX reviews will be _really_ interesting. $1200 MSRP is _way_ too high though, sorry.


Extrapolating from TPU's results at 4K, the 7900 XTX should be about 15-20% faster than the 4080 at rasterization.


----------



## thelawnet (Nov 15, 2022)

Price is insane and this is a terrible product for that reason.


September 17, 2020 3080 $699 - 67% faster than the 2080 also at $699
September 24, 2020 3090 $1499 - shipping cards tended to have large overclocks compared to spec, and were twice as fast as the 2080 as a result
October 29, 2020 3070 $499 - same as the 2080 Ti, 25% slower than the 3080, 31% vs. the 3090
December 2, 2020 3060 Ti $399 - 1/3 slower than the 3080, 39% vs. the 390
Now here:


October 12, 2022 4090 $1599 - this time Nvidia left virtually nothing in the tank, so third-party designs had barely better performance than reference. 92% faster than the $699 3080
November 16, 2022 4080 $1199 - again nothing left in the tank, and only 52% faster than the $699 3080, so:

So


the price of the 3080 was $699, and this is relatively not as good as that
by this point in the 30 series cycle, the 3070 was out, at $499, although this is relatively better than that
therefore a fair price for this would be $599 as the 4070 ti, and there should be a real 4080 at $699.

Since it's being sold for twice the fair price, it's one of the worst product launches in history, certainly far worse than say the 6500 xt at the peak of the mining boom, at least that served a purpose in being useless for mining. This? No. Bad, bad Nvidia.


----------



## Luminescent (Nov 15, 2022)

I will probably never buy a GPU that expensive and never meet someone who owns one.


----------



## defaultluser (Nov 15, 2022)

64K said:


> Nice job Nvidia. The price is too high but other than that this card looks very good.




yeah kids, if you wait the initial three months rush, these cards will quickly fall in price (AMD, plus any shortage on launch day will be gone)

but yeah, this needs tom fall down to 1000 to make sense long-term


----------



## Lionheart (Nov 15, 2022)

Good card, hits where I expected it to, garbage price, don't be tempted lads, speak with your wallets.


----------



## Tech Ninja (Nov 15, 2022)

I have 1 request.  When reviewing the 7900XTX please have a chart with max RT and DLSS Quality plus FG vs FSR.  I want to know how far behind it is with all the bells and whistles on even if it makes AMD look bad.  I want to know exactly what I’m giving up for $900 vs $1200.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

Tech Ninja said:


> vs $1200


Where can you buy that for $1200? German price is around 1500 Euro. (4090 2300+)

Also, XTX is $1000.


----------



## Eva01Master (Nov 15, 2022)

Same place he'll be able to get the other one for $900


----------



## mb194dc (Nov 15, 2022)

Price is way too high. In a world where prior gen is averaging 80fps at 4k, who's spending the extra for this ? 

I guess we'll see. Both teams cards are far too expensive.


----------



## CyberCT (Nov 15, 2022)

Glad I picked up my EVGA 3080ti for $820 on Newegg during a ridiculous sale they had months ago. Never saw one go that low again and NVIDIA must be keeping supply low on purpose to keep demand and prices high ... even the 30 series cards went up in price, which is ridiculous.

Having a Samsung Gsync TV was the best purchase I made in a while. I don't care if the 3080ti can't push 120fps constantly at 4k ... The image quality is incredible and I don't notice the FPS fluctuation between 70-120 too much. Gonna skip this generation for sure.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

If AMD's presentation figures hold, even non XTX 7900 will be somewhat slower trade blows, mostly win against 4080 16GB.








CyberCT said:


> Gsync ...was the best purchase I made in a while


Ironic.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 15, 2022)

CyberCT said:


> Glad I picked up my EVGA 3080ti for $820 on Newegg during a ridiculous sale they had months ago. Never saw one go that low again and NVIDIA must be keeping supply low on purpose to keep demand and prices high ... even the 30 series cards went up in price, which is ridiculous.
> 
> Having a Samsung Gsync TV was the best purchase I made in a while. I don't care if the 3080ti can't push 120fps constantly at 4k ... The image quality is incredible and I don't notice the FPS fluctuation between 70-120 too much. Gonna skip this generation for sure.



Anyone sane would do what you're doing. Ada is just a turnoff, the prices are too high, NV is as usual stingy with backporting features to former flagship cards... and honestly this architecture is more of the same. RDNA 3 on the other hand is an impressive technical achievement... AMD's design has soul this time around.

Eagerly awaiting the Navi 31 reviews, but were I a betting man, I'd stake on the 7900 XT wrecking this card and the 7900 XTX being eerily competitive with the RTX 4090 - at a much lower price and power consumption figure. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Xex360 (Nov 15, 2022)

Great review though as usual here!
As for the card, it's stupidly overpriced just like the 4090, and then the new RT cores what are they doing, the card loses performance similarly to Ampere, only the 4090 is step up in this regard.
Again wasted silicon.


----------



## rv8000 (Nov 15, 2022)

Insignificant performance jump over the 3090ti @4k, previous gen cards are plenty strong at 1080/1440p to drive 100+ FPS.

This product has zero value at its current price. People will flock to buy it while complaining about price, and never break the endless cycle.


----------



## Fleurious (Nov 15, 2022)

Looks like a decent enough card but i’m tired of these ever increasing  prices for xx80/xx90 cards so i’ll just stick with my trusty 1070ti until it dies.


----------



## DemonicRyzen666 (Nov 15, 2022)

medi01 said:


> If AMD's presentation figures hold, even non XTX 7900 will trade blows, mostly win against 4080 16GB.
> 
> View attachment 270069
> 
> ...


most of those games list for RX 6950 XT are almost 10% higher than Techpowerup's listed frames in reviews here.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 15, 2022)

How can a rip off be an editors choice?


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 15, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> most of those games list for RX 6950 XT are almost 10% higher than Techpowerup's listed frames in reviews here.



W1zz has been getting some flak for the stock 5800X testbench setup for some time now. It's a realistic setup which I personally love but if you're looking for maximum potential, it's not gonna cut it for current gen cards. The CPU just cannot do it.


----------



## skates (Nov 15, 2022)

These 4080 reviews are disappointing in that they are all editors choice and one of the main factors in considering cards for a lot of people is price, which the reviews only list as a con.  TPU has been my go-to for many years and this is a missed opportunity to tell Nvidia that pricing counts and remove editors choice, rather than just being a con.  This is the first set of reviews which I suspect are biased and I've never felt that way with TPU until now.


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 15, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> most of those games list for RX 6950 XT are almost 10% higher than Techpowerup's listed frames in reviews here.


Probably different test scenes.


----------



## mb194dc (Nov 15, 2022)

N3M3515 said:


> How can a rip off be an editors choice?



My guess would be Nvidia not happy if the conclusion is? : whilst it's a technically very impressive card, most use cases will be better served buying the prior gen at the cheapest price they can.  

If you've got money to burn or want that extra 10 or 20fps at 4k + RT on, go for it...

That's the truth, as far as I'm concerned anyway.


----------



## skates (Nov 15, 2022)

Tech Ninja said:


> As a long time Nvidia supporter I love all the new tech and performance, but the prices are too much.  There is actually a chance I might go AMD for the 1st time since the 15+ year old 5000 series.  Which is annoying because DLSS 3.0 and RTX are amazing.  Or I might stay with my 2080 another Gen!


Me too.  I have an 2080Ti and this is the first time in ages that I've skipped a generation (3000 series) and will now skip this generation as well.  I've never owned AMD, but I'll be getting the XTX on release because it has DP 2.0 and I'm interested in a DP2.0 monitor next year and secondly, I just don't want to support Nvidia any longer, their pricing and availability is ridiculous.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> most of those games list for RX 6950 XT are almost 10% higher than Techpowerup's listed frames in reviews here.


Yeah, just noted. Thanks.


----------



## clopezi (Nov 15, 2022)

ShiningSapphire said:


> 5800X in test setup...again huge bottleneck and flattened results especially in 1080p/1440p.


Not huge at all, but anyway, who wants one of those cards to play 1080P games? C'mon, be realistic here.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Nov 15, 2022)

As I'm looking over the results I'm thinking, "Damn, this is a lot faster than I though it was going to be....out pacing the 3090Ti, WTF?" Then it clicked that I was thinking about the 4080 12GB. For some reason I had the crappy, what is now defunct, 4080 12GB on the brain.

The power use is lower than I thought it would be, so I guess that's a good thing going for the card.
The performance is about where I figured it would be based on the released graphs.
The RT hasn't improved over Ampere. Ada is still suffering roughly a 40% drop in performance with RT on, same as Ampere.
The price, though, is shit. Nearly double the price of previous 3080 10GB and even if you compared it to the 12GB model, it's still a $400 premium price you're paying.

If this card came in right at $799, I could see it being a worthwhile purchase. I hope the 7900XT (or at least the XTX) comes in and walks all over this card. Come on AMD, don't let us down because If I was in the need for a high end card this gen I'd rather spend $900-1000 instead of $1200. Thankfully, though, I'm not in need for a new GPU.


----------



## Vecix6 (Nov 15, 2022)

There is a typo in the first page charts: says AD102 and 76300M transistors, but in the intro says: "NVIDIA developed a new in-between silicon between the two, to better optimize manufacturing costs, the AD103." and if I not missed this is a 45900M transistors and close to 380 mm2


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

It is notable that with RT (aka "kill my fps") on, perf drop is roughly the same as in the last gen.

What happened to "new GPUs will have more RT, so fps won't tank" promise?


----------



## Icon Charlie (Nov 15, 2022)

ShiningSapphire said:


> Price is high because Nvidia wants to force potential buyers to take the 4090 instead for not much more.


IMHO.... there is more to this. I will not say much (since I'm from Silicon Valley and I hear lots of interesting things and I don't want to be one day Epstein'ed... heh),  BUT IHMO the reason the pricing is this high is because....

1.  Too many Greenies that Drank the cool aid for so many years that they have been zombified.  So when  Lord Gonzo puts on his leather Jacket and says... "Go!!!... and buy our expensive video cards so that you can be one of the cool guys and feel important and entitled!!!".... They do so with grunts and groans. The shambling hoards bang on their keyboards, buying their stuff without worrying about how much it costs.  Because... They are the Greenies!!!...

2.  Leather Jacket Lord Gonzo  knows that his easy money from Crypto is over. He needs price it so that it looks gooooood for the share holder and his fat paycheck he gets every year. 

Okay... so there you have it.... I will now hop on my Gyrocopter and fly towards my make shift shelter in the deepest and darkest parts of the technology jungle and try to hide... And with gallons of soapy water for my sprayer and cases of  "Old Spice"  Deodorant to hurl at  the Greenies, I know they will melt and bubble away...  as personal hygiene to the Greenies is like holy water to the undead.     I shall defend myself against the Ngreedia Greenies to the Bitter End!!!  

Soooooo.... Get Ready with your secret Decoder Ring and your Ovaltine for next week's Episode on the WKFOOL radio in: 

Icon Charlie and the Secrets of Silicon Valley!!!


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Nov 15, 2022)

clopezi said:


> Not huge at all, but anyway, who wants one of those cards to play 1080P games? C'mon, be realistic here.


That argument has been beaten to death. Many times.

A GPU test tests the GPU. This may shock you, but that means that your test rig should not bottleneck the GPU. You are testing the theoretical output of hte card, not based on how realistic the final setup is. Because by that logic, we shouldnt test at 4k.

Same reason CPU tests include 720p results, to make the CPU test the bottleneck


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

So, MSRP (assuming they were real):

3080: $699  (cryptobazinga inflation made that much more than that)
4080: $1199 (current pricing I see in DE is 2199 to 2521 Euros  )

Performance gain from next gen: +50%
Price bump of the next gen: +70%

Rich.

Editor's Choice. 



TheinsanegamerN said:


> Same reason CPU tests include 720p results, to make the CPU test the bottleneck


This was beaten to death, but I don't recall any consensus on such tests making sense (and in my opinion, it doesn't, obviously)


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

Yeah, as was mentioned above here, @W1zzard, it feels like quite the stretch to give an "Editor's choice" award to a product that increases its price over its predecessor by 70%.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Nov 15, 2022)

medi01 said:


> This was beaten to death, but I don't recall any consensus on such tests making sense (and in my opinion, it doesn't, obviously)


The entire argument against it is "well nobody plays like that". Which has nothing to do with the argument, which was that low rez tests in CPU testing are used to force the CPU to be the bottleneck to explore the theoretical limit of the chip. (and for GPUs, using the fastest CPU available to ensure that the GPU is the bottleneck for GPU tests, because the entire point of GPU tests is to test the GPU)

When your entire rebuttal of an argument is whataboutism it tends to get thrown away.


----------



## Hattu (Nov 15, 2022)

Right.  I'm so glad that I live in Finland...

Rtx 4080: 1510-1980€
Rtx 4090: 2250-2600€

(There were some adjustments for lower prices after this announcement)... So they were higher before today....

Tziibuz! Last over ten years (from 'bout year ~2011) my whole computer built from ground up cost me like 1900-2300€, (GPU and CPU max 400€/piece), depending how and what to add in total price....

Nowadays:

MB 300-700€, CPU 500-700€, RAM... Like what, 3-6k€ total? No way. I'm keeping my current HW for several coming years. Or tens of them....

Insane! This has to stop....


----------



## Blaeza (Nov 15, 2022)

Another giant card that just doesn't fit.  In my case, wallet or Jenson's arse.  Performance is good, but they've not got a clue about worldwide economy, hence dumb prices.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> The entire argument against it is "well nobody plays like that".


Nonsense. First Zens performed much better in newer games than older games, so the whole concept had failed to predict the only thing it was meant to predict: performance in newer games.



TheinsanegamerN said:


> argument is whataboutism


When you make an argument on behalf of an imaginary opponent and defeat him as well. Amazing skills.
Also, learn what "whataboutism" means, before using that word.


----------



## DemonicRyzen666 (Nov 15, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> W1zz has been getting some flak for the stock 5800X testbench setup for some time now. It's a realistic setup which I personally love but if you're looking for maximum potential, it's not gonna cut it for current gen cards. The CPU just cannot do it.





AnotherReader said:


> Probably different test scenes.





medi01 said:


> Yeah, just noted. Thanks.





clopezi said:


> Not huge at all, but anyway, who wants one of those cards to play 1080P games? C'mon, be realistic here.



Maybe they tested with 7950x then, that should make up that 10%.


----------



## Frick (Nov 15, 2022)

At something like $800 this would be beastly.

Anyway, is it possible to add 4K 60hz to the power consumption section? That would make a lot more sense than 1080p 60hz, st least with cards like this.


----------



## Hattu (Nov 15, 2022)

But I do appreciate the effort this site and it's pros take to make us these charts and data. 

Thank you. All. 

(I'm just baffled from these modern world prices nowadays).


----------



## Vario (Nov 15, 2022)

Just a launch price, probably will come down once they milk the early adopters.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Nov 15, 2022)

This gpu is so weird to me and kinda reminds me of the 2080ti in the sense that the gen on gen performance increas is good with just the 1200 usd price tag making it bad... I still feel this should be a less than 1k usd gpu.

Given the specifications this is a better gpu than I expected but hopefully the high price is just to sell ampere stock then again if it sells out and stays sold out maybe Nvidia just knows more than we do about how much consumers are willing to spend on their products.


----------



## Vario (Nov 15, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> This gpu is so weird to me and kinda reminds me of the 2080ti in the sense that the gen on gen performance increas is good with just the 1200 usd price tag making it bad... I still feel this should be a less than 1k usd gpu.
> 
> Given the specifications this is a better gpu than I expected but hopefully the high price is just to sell ampere stock then again if it sells out and stays sold out maybe Nvidia just knows more than we do about how much consumers are willing to spend on their products.


The efficiency is really stellar.  I bet the 4060/70 will be a real sweet spot for a few years.  Without cryptobuyers, the price will go down I am sure.


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 15, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> Maybe they tested with 7950x then, that should make up that 10%.


According to the end notes for their RDNA3 technical presentation, they tested with a 7900X.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Nov 15, 2022)

Vario said:


> The efficiency is really stellar.  I bet the 4060/70 will be a real sweet spot for a few years.  Without cryptobuyers, the price will go down I am sure.



Yeah, on one hand it's much better than anything from the 3000 series in a lot of ways on the other hand the price sucks similarly to the launch prices of the 3080 12GB/3080 ti.


----------



## rv8000 (Nov 15, 2022)

N3M3515 said:


> How can a rip off be an editors choice?



This is one of the best parts of any tech reviews now.

There’s always some statement, blurb, or clarification within the body of the review saying the purpose of the independent review is to be objective. And then they list pros and cons which follow whatever subjective rating structure they’ve decided upon as a reviewer. They then state the tech market is ridiculously expensive, or power usage is insanely high, and then some how they give a buy this or editors choice recommendation, even though 90+ percent of tech users can’t afford it or maybe 5% or less actually need that hardware to run something.

I get that the pros and con list exist to cover those bases. Anyone is free to spend their money how they see fit, but when tech media gives new hardware a free pass “I recommend this”, it’s just another go ahead for any tech company to keep ramping up prices until some break point is hit where everyone is left wondering why no one is buying their products and the industry hits a massive slump.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

Hattu said:


> Tziibuz! Last over ten years (from 'bout year ~2011) my whole computer built from ground up cost me like 1900-2300€, (GPU and CPU max 400€/piece), depending how and what to add in total price....
> 
> Nowadays:
> 
> ...


Just a thought: if people start voting with their wallet (e.g. sharp drop of desktop CPU sales) perhaps certain überbrains will get an idea of a product "within given budget".

I.e. next gen that is not driven by what TSMC has randomly decided to charge, or leather man's oversize ego margins, but "The most competitive GPU I can roll out for $300". (price doesn't matter here, I hope you get an idea)


----------



## cellar door (Nov 15, 2022)

Editor's Choice award - how? One of the worst price/perf cards... it's like these awards don't hold any value anymore.


----------



## Jeager (Nov 15, 2022)

cellar door said:


> Editor's Choice award - how? One of the worst price/perf cards... it's like these awards don't hold any value anymore.


That's what I wrote a few weeks ago already sadly ..
Review only take into account perfs (next 5080 will be 1K watts for only 3K but with all rewards


----------



## Shazamy (Nov 15, 2022)

Thanks again for your efforts and another fantastic review @W1zzard


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 15, 2022)

What's with the make believe prices in price / performance charts? RTX 3080, a two year old card, is still at MSRP, and actually getting more expensive as we speak. Because it is such a good value, compared to Ada dumpsterfire...


----------



## Hattu (Nov 15, 2022)

medi01 said:


> Just a thought: if people start voting with their wallet (e.g. sharp drop of desktop CPU sales) perhaps certain überbrains will get an idea of a product "within given budget".
> 
> I.e. next gen that is not driven by what TSMC has randomly decided to charge, or leather man's oversize ego margins, but "The most competitive GPU I can roll out for $300". (price doesn't matter here, I hope you get an idea)


Yeah, I'm with you. More or less. Hopefully (a lot of) less. I have no certain proof of anything, but prices have to stop inclining.


----------



## InfernalAI (Nov 15, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> Maybe they tested with 7950x then, that should make up that 10%.


Linus review showed the 6950xt get 49fps average, JayTwoCentz showed 45 fps, TechpowerUp showed 39 fps, and then AMD's slide showed 43. This isn't a huge surprise or unpredictable, everyone is using a different test system, as well possibly testing it in different scenes. That is why various benchmarks are good, because we can then infer the average of everyone's test is what the typical performance would be. So somewhere around 44 fps is to be expected then.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 15, 2022)

N3utro said:


> 4080 is still more powerful than a 3090 ti for a lesser price so it's still nice to have compared to before. If the price trend follows for 4000 series we might have a 4060 ti for around $500 which is as powerful as a 3080 and using DLSS 3. We can even expect the price to be lower if AMD competition is good. I'm looking forward to buy a 4060 ti if this verifies.



The vanilla 3090 would make both moot at $900 from a price/perf/power consumption standpoint. I can't believe I'm making an argument favorable to the 3090 in power consumption, but alas - they are available in 2x8 pin format...


----------



## Raendor (Nov 15, 2022)

I’d wait for 5060 which will be about 4080 and probably around those same 700 Eur I paid for my 3080 FE if nvidia continues stupid price increasing trend. Time to get back into budget-friendly midrange hardware


----------



## gffermari (Nov 15, 2022)

.....still waiting for a fast card at 700$ range.

It doesn't look that the 4000 700$ card (if they create one) will be any different to the existing 3000 gpus.


----------



## kanecvr (Nov 15, 2022)

Horrid performance / value. Hard pass. Guess I won't be getting new hardware anytime soon.


----------



## rv8000 (Nov 15, 2022)

gffermari said:


> .....still waiting for a fast card at 700$ range.
> 
> It doesn't look that the 4000 700$ card (if they create one) will be any different to the existing 3000 gpus.



With the exception of improved encoding, no. The 4000 series is pointless if you don’t need that or literally have money to burn.


----------



## bobmeix (Nov 15, 2022)

@W1zzard 
The review I've been waiting for. It's a shame the price is shamefully high! 

There seems to be a typo in the specs table. An extra "0" in the Navi31 transistor count.


----------



## rhaoul (Nov 15, 2022)

I don't understand this kind of prices... this is the end...


----------



## Flydommo (Nov 15, 2022)

Technically impressive, much less so pricewise. I hope for AMD's 7900XTX to be highly competitive and putting on some pressure on Nvidia's exaggerated pricing.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Yes, it is now .. I checked Newegg yesterday ..and yes I was like "WTF" too


I understand that you're basing the price of newegg, but it's not newegg that's selling those cards at these prices, it's 3rd parties that are just scalping (it's on the stupid consumer's shoulders if they're wanting to pay that price).

If retailers actually start jacking up pricing (Best Buy, Micro Center, Newegg, Amazon, etc) like they eventually did with Ampere and RDNA2 then I'd agree with you that pricing is up and you should mark things accordingly then.

My two cents: Just because it's hard to find a card at normal MSRP, doesn't mean the cards are selling more than they are listed for by retailers and I find it in poor taste to state otherwise....it feels disingenuous.


----------



## ymdhis (Nov 15, 2022)

Could we combine all these reviews into a single article? It looks so silly when one videocards reviews take up 3-4 pages on the main page.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> I understand that you're basing the price of newegg, but it's not newegg that's selling those cards at these prices, it's 3rd parties that are just scalping (it's on the stupid consumer's shoulders if they're wanting to pay that price).
> 
> If retailers actually start jacking up pricing (Best Buy, Micro Center, Newegg, Amazon, etc) like they eventually did with Ampere and RDNA2 then I'd agree with you that pricing is up and you should mark things accordingly then.
> 
> My two cents: Just because it's hard to find a card at normal MSRP, doesn't mean the cards are selling more than they are listed for by retailers and I find it in poor taste to state otherwise....it feels disingenuous.











						rtx 4090 for sale | eBay
					

Get the best deals for rtx 4090 at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!



					www.ebay.com
				




I guess I could change it to $2100


----------



## Razrback16 (Nov 15, 2022)

Ah, these chuckle-worthy prices. I'll pick up a used 4090 when they're under $1k in a couple years. Beyond that, they can rot.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 15, 2022)

I am impressed with the power efficiency of the 4080, but at $1200 I will pass on this. At $999 I probably would have tried, doesn't matter, it will sell out tomorrow and most of you who try to get it won't be able to anyway. lol

we live in a new world now, filled with bots and greedy third party sellers, they exist in droves these days.


----------



## Upgrayedd (Nov 15, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> RTX 4090 & 53 Games: Ryzen 7 5800X vs Ryzen 7 5800X3D Review
> 
> 
> How much performance can you gain with Ryzen 7 5800X3D over the non-3DV Cache Ryzen 7 5800X when using the mighty GeForce RTX 4090? Our review has the answer, we test 53 games at three resolutions.
> ...


Is +30% not huge? Then on top of that the 13900K is even faster than the 5800X3D.. don't really see the point of linking your own article that shows over 30% gains in multiple titles at 1440p then mocking a user's adjective describing your own article. 

Publishing GPU reviews with a clear CPU bottleneck tells me much less about ALL these GPUs than it should.


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> it's 3rd parties that are just scalping



That was the excuse used to explain, why there was no $999 2080Ti. And then, on 3000 series presentation, The Leather Man himself admitted it was  $1200. 

So, while it is true, that we cannot rule out scalping, we also have no idea what the "real" MSRP is. Especially with this info in mind:







You cannot expect AIB who works at below 10% gross margin, if sold at MSRP, to sell at MSRP.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

medi01 said:


> You cannot expect AIB who works at below 10% gross margin, if sold at MSRP, to sell at MSRP.


Exactly. And considering something as cheap to run as retail typically requires gross margins above 10% to break even, you can only imagine the types of margins needed to break even for a company doing design, extremely complex industrial production, and distribution of products.


----------



## DuxCro (Nov 15, 2022)

aciDev said:


> View attachment 270053Italy, now, including 22% VAT.




Cheapest prices here in Croatia with 25% VAT. PC gaming is officially for rich people.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 15, 2022)

rv8000 said:


> With the exception of improved encoding, no. The 4000 series is pointless if you don’t need that or literally have money to burn.



The funny thing is that Turing/Ampere's encoder is more than enough for streaming services for the time being. Unless you're really interested in AV1 for personal reasons but if you just want video, Arc A380 can deliver that at a fraction of the cost.



DuxCro said:


> Cheapest prices here in Croatia with 25% VAT. PC gaming is officially for rich people.



No one will need an Ada card to enjoy games for the coming years, even. Just wait for AMD's lineup, it's sensible unlike Nvidia's this time around. I'm one of the guys that with a little effort, I can afford a 4090 without financing it. I just... don't see the point. Ada represents something I really do not like.


----------



## Vario (Nov 15, 2022)

Flydommo said:


> Technically impressive, much less so pricewise. I hope for AMD's 7900XTX to be highly competitive and putting on some pressure on Nvidia's exaggerated pricing.


It will probably be the same: crazy price at launch but will drop.



medi01 said:


> That was the excuse used to explain, why there was no $999 2080Ti. And then, on 3000 series presentation, The Leather Man himself admitted it was $1200.
> 
> So, while it is true, that we cannot rule out scalping, we also have no idea what the "real" MSRP is. Especially with this info in mind:
> 
> ...


The more you buy, the more you save!


----------



## Roph (Nov 15, 2022)

Priced into irrelevance


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

Maybe someone at Nvidia is running a massive scale experiment to see just how long they can keep all those old GTX 1060s in service?


----------



## bobmeix (Nov 15, 2022)

@W1zzard 
Another small typo on the conclusion page. 

"NVIDIA is betting big with on ray tracing with GeForce RTX 4080." An extra "with"?!


----------



## medi01 (Nov 15, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Maybe someone at Nvidia is running a massive scale experiment to see just how long they can keep all those old GTX 1060s in service?


I am seeing a number of "4090 is great value", "glad I bought 4090" comments.

So maybe that was the intent, make products below halo so terrible, that not so great halo price is suddenly a bargain and people will jump a tier...


----------



## SOAREVERSOR (Nov 15, 2022)

rhaoul said:


> I don't understand this kind of prices... this is the end...



There are a few things to keep in mind.  The first is that the cost of making cards has gone up massively since the late 90s and early 2000s.  These are much more complex to make and require tons of materials.  The constant demand for fancier graphics and physics was always going to result in rising costs.   The next issue is that in capitalism you must continue to grow and make more profit or you fail.  Once prior inflated prices were done there was no going back.   The last is that nVidia is the premium brand here and they must charge more than AMD and not lower prices in response to keep that position and perception in the market.  

This all just moving us faster to the era where cloud streaming companies are going to buy up these sort of things and then recoup the money on service fees and game sales.  This is already the model for Xbox and Sony where the hardware is sold at a massive loss for a long time but the money comes from the games and service fees.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Nov 15, 2022)

rhaoul said:


> I don't understand this kind of prices... this is the end...


Well, see there’s this thing called hyperinflation. It’s what happens when every government on earth thinks printing over 50% of all their currency in 18 months is a good idea.
There’s also this thing called debt, your average gaming consoomer is a total idiot who will take out debt for almost anything, go look at the sheer amount of credit debt and buy now pay later debt has been racked up in the last year.
Combine them together with corporate greed and ever more expensive process modes and…..


----------



## N/A (Nov 15, 2022)

It's funny how Nvda filled the 4070 Ti spot with GA104, not leaving room for anything between the 4080's. like a more cut down GA103. Now GA104 will be 4 different cards 4060/70 and the Ti versions. How come GA103 can't do that and the intent to keep force feeding the 30 series at 2 year old srp is outrageous. 4060 or 3070 Ti, I don't want the old thing.


----------



## mechtech (Nov 15, 2022)

No dp2.  Sorry no deal. 

well good sign that TSMC node is good.   Main issue with price and strength of greenback.  Going to make these way more expensive in other countries.



TheinsanegamerN said:


> Well, see there’s this thing called hyperinflation. It’s what happens when every government on earth thinks printing over 50% of all their currency in 18 months is a good idea.
> There’s also this thing called debt, your average gaming consoomer is a total idiot who will take out debt for almost anything, go look at the sheer amount of credit debt and buy now pay later debt has been racked up in the last year.
> Combine them together with corporate greed and ever more expensive process modes and…..


I would q it up to corps wanting to keep their over inflated covid pricing and profits.   Mining boom didn’t help and all the fools (like you mentioned) paying those prices didn’t help either.


----------



## Legacy-ZA (Nov 15, 2022)

This series is a complete letdown, and then there is the bamboozlement between the different models that goes with it... yeah, scumbag of a company.

Vote with your wallet folks


----------



## Garrus (Nov 15, 2022)

It isn't energy efficient. At full usage, it draws identical power to the 3080. Nothing has changed. Ridiculous point of view imo.

The 4080 is a '70 class die in size, and not expensive to make either. It's total greed. Sorry NVidia, mining is over. Wake up.

A $600 product for $1200 is a sad joke. We might have been ok with $800, but nothing more.



medi01 said:


> I am seeing a number of "4090 is great value", "glad I bought 4090" comments.
> 
> So maybe that was the intent, make products below halo so terrible, that not so great halo price is suddenly a bargain and people will jump a tier...


Basically, like the iPhone 14 Pro. I came back to Apple with the X and XR, and now their phones are ridiuclously priced. I offered $1500 CAD for a used iPhone and the guy laughed at me and said no. Snapdragon + Oneplus, here I come.



SOAREVERSOR said:


> There are a few things to keep in mind.  The first is that the cost of making cards has gone up massively since the late 90s and early 2000s.  These are much more complex to make and require tons of materials.  The constant demand for fancier graphics and physics was always going to result in rising costs.   The next issue is that in capitalism you must continue to grow and make more profit or you fail.  Once prior inflated prices were done there was no going back.   The last is that nVidia is the premium brand here and they must charge more than AMD and not lower prices in response to keep that position and perception in the market.
> 
> This all just moving us faster to the era where cloud streaming companies are going to buy up these sort of things and then recoup the money on service fees and game sales.  This is already the model for Xbox and Sony where the hardware is sold at a massive loss for a long time but the money comes from the games and service fees.


Not true. They use the same TSMC process as your CPUs. CPUs are not getting more expensive. The 5800X right now is crazy cheap and the 7700X is about to be cheaper also. CPU and GPU pricing should be in lockstep.


----------



## LifeOnMars (Nov 15, 2022)




----------



## Ayhamb99 (Nov 15, 2022)

Garrus said:


> It isn't energy efficient. At full usage, it draws identical power to the 3080. Nothing has changed. Ridiculous point of view imo.


What do you mean it isn't energy efficient? If it draws the identical power to the 3080 but also being around 30% or so faster, it means it consumes less watts per frame compared to the 3080 which shows an improvement in efficiency.


----------



## DemonicRyzen666 (Nov 15, 2022)

Ayhamb99 said:


> What do you mean it isn't energy efficient? If it draws the identical power to the 3080 but also being around 30% or so faster, it means it consumes less watts per frame compared to the 3080 which shows an improvement in efficiency.


because of the lower node of the 4nm, which is "tuned 5nm really" 
When taken the lower node into account from the power difference from the two. 
It's power effinicy is worse than RTX 3,000 series.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 15, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> because of the lower node of the 4nm, which is "tuned 5nm really"
> When taken the lower node into account from the power difference from the two.
> It's power effinicy is worse than RTX 3,000 series.


... "when you ignore one of the core characteristics of the new product, it's similar to the old product." Like, what? Where, exactly, can I go buy a 4nm Ampere card then? 'Cause unless those exist, what you're saying here makes no sense whatsoever. Nobody has said that _the architecture_ is more efficient. What's been said is that _the product_ is more efficient. And the product is produced on a specific node, and must be compared to other products on their respective nodes.


medi01 said:


> I am seeing a number of "4090 is great value", "glad I bought 4090" comments.
> 
> So maybe that was the intent, make products below halo so terrible, that not so great halo price is suddenly a bargain and people will jump a tier...


That's been the strategy for at least three generations now, yeah - keep hiking prices and launching weirly placed SKUs so that the stupidly priced top-tier ones look slightly less bad.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> Well, see there’s this thing called hyperinflation. It’s what happens when every government on earth thinks printing over 50% of all their currency in 18 months is a good idea.


If you think what we're seeing now is anything even remotely related to hyperinflation, you really need to read up on that concept.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> Combine them together with corporate greed and ever more expensive process modes and…..





mechtech said:


> I would q it up to corps wanting to keep their over inflated covid pricing and profits.


This is exactly it. What is this "inflation" that people are talking about? _It's corporations raising prices_. Not because costs have risen - though they have somewhat, they haven't to anywhere near the level of consumer price increases - but because they want more profits. Heck, corporate profits have risen more over the past few years _than ever before_. It really doesn't take a genius to see that that's the source of the problem.


----------



## BNSoul (Nov 15, 2022)

So set this beast at 1440p 120 fps V-sync  / G-sync and it will run at 50-60º and half the power draw of a 3090 Ti, impressive, pricing could be better but you just can't deny Nvidia craftmanship.


----------



## EatingDirt (Nov 15, 2022)

Upgrayedd said:


> Is +30% not huge? Then on top of that the 13900K is even faster than the 5800X3D.. don't really see the point of linking your own article that shows over 30% gains in multiple titles at 1440p then mocking a user's adjective describing your own article.
> 
> Publishing GPU reviews with a clear CPU bottleneck tells me much less about ALL these GPUs than it should.


Instead of complaining about a realistic gaming PC setup, you can simply ignore the 1440p results and look at the 4k results. 

The games with +30% in the 4k results aren't included in this review. At the most you'd see an overall score of ~5% lower than it would've been with a 13900k or 5800X3D with the 4090. With the 4080, the subject of this review, the difference will be closer to 0-1%, so negligible.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 15, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> If this card came in right at $799, I could see it being a worthwhile purchase.


My exact thoughts.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 15, 2022)

With that efficiency, 4060\ti will be awesome!
Give it to me with 12GB at 170-180w and price it whatever you want. I'll buy.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 15, 2022)

bobmeix said:


> @W1zzard
> Another small typo on the conclusion page.
> 
> "NVIDIA is betting big with on ray tracing with GeForce RTX 4080." An extra "with"?!


oh wow .. i had to read that part 3 times trying to find the mistake, and i've read the conclusion several times, and our proofreader, and most of our team members, too. fixing ..


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 15, 2022)

BNSoul said:


> pricing could be better


Really, like $50 less right? OMG.....



gffermari said:


> .....still waiting for a fast card at 700$ range.
> 
> It doesn't look that the 4000 700$ card (if they create one) will be any different to the existing 3000 gpus.


Wait for it, the 4060 Ti looks like


----------



## cool_recep (Nov 15, 2022)

TSMC 4N is actually 5 nanometer or I'm wrong.


----------



## skates (Nov 15, 2022)

Allow me to sum up the 4080 - "Special financing for 36 months with approved credit - see store for details"


----------



## Upgrayedd (Nov 15, 2022)

EatingDirt said:


> Instead of complaining about a realistic gaming PC setup, you can simply ignore the 1440p results and look at the 4k results.
> 
> The games with +30% in the 4k results aren't included in this review. At the most you'd see an overall score of ~5% lower than it would've been with a 13900k or 5800X3D with the 4090. With the 4080, the subject of this review, the difference will be closer to 0-1%, so negligible.


Borderlands 3 has a 3fps difference between 1080p and 4K with a 4080 and 5800X. Less than 1 fps with a 4090.
Hitman 3 and Halo Infinite are nearly 20% faster with X3D at 4K. Which are both showing clear bottlenecks.  It's not negligible


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 15, 2022)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Well, see there’s this thing called hyperinflation. It’s what happens when every government on earth thinks printing over 50% of all their currency in 18 months is a good idea.
> There’s also this thing called debt, your average gaming consoomer is a total idiot who will take out debt for almost anything, go look at the sheer amount of credit debt and buy now pay later debt has been racked up in the last year.
> Combine them together with corporate greed and ever more expensive process modes and…..


Taking all of that into account this gpu would be max $900


----------



## Garrus (Nov 15, 2022)

Ayhamb99 said:


> What do you mean it isn't energy efficient? If it draws the identical power to the 3080 but also being around 30% or so faster, it means it consumes less watts per frame compared to the 3080 which shows an improvement in efficiency.


Then that would be a pro for every video card release ever. Cross generational comparisons to determine efficiency don't make sense. You compare with the other cards in the gen. The GTX 1070 was 60-70 percent faster than the GTX 970, I didn't see people saying "most efficient ever".


----------



## regs (Nov 15, 2022)

cool_recep said:


> TSMC 4N


It's called N4, not 4N. And yes, it is a member of N5 process family. But none of them are 5 nm process. It's 28 nm process.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 15, 2022)

Garrus said:


> It isn't energy efficient. At full usage, it draws identical power to the 3080. Nothing has changed. Ridiculous point of view imo.
> 
> The 4080 is a '70 class die in size, and not expensive to make either. It's total greed. Sorry NVidia, mining is over. Wake up.
> 
> A $600 product for $1200 is a sad joke. We might have been ok with $800, but nothing more.



I agree with the pricing stance and the true positioning of this hardware, but the energy efficiency one is something I have to disagree with. Ada is exceptionally power efficient once you account for its performance per watt figures. The way to see it is; how much power does this hardware need to match its predecessor's performance? At 4K, W1zz's review places the RTX 3080-10G at 67% relative to this card, which means that it will need roughly 200W to do the same work that a 3080-10G will at 320. Very loose and bad maths (I'm terrible at it)


----------



## trog100 (Nov 15, 2022)

BNSoul said:


> So set this beast at 1440p 120 fps V-sync  / G-sync and it will run at 50-60º and half the power draw of a 3090 Ti, impressive, pricing could be better but you just can't deny Nvidia craftmanship.



that is exactly what i have done with my 4090.. 1440p 120 max fps and 80% max power.. it performs about the same as a 3090 but on far less power..

interestingly running 3dmark timespy on those settings it scores about the same as a 3090..

i bought it cos i fancied buying it not because i needed it..

trog


----------



## gmn 17 (Nov 15, 2022)

4080 TI $1399 yes please


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 15, 2022)

PERFORMANCE: better than expected


EFFICIENCY: I guess its fantastic by "current standards" and beats last Gen!


RT: Looks great. Usually i don't like going below 90fps in any gaming title hence I haven't bothered with RT at all. With the 4080's RT performance, definitely a key factor adding to the 4080 appeal


NOISE/TEMPS: Looks great for an FE. I wouldn't have it any other way


PRICE: What a joke! Puts all these nice perks to shame! Wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot telescopic ~25ft extended pole. Not even with rubber insulated gloves and the palm and fingers coated with a GPU-pandemic hand sanitizer

Maybe i'm just an uninformed/ignorant optimist... prior to actual availability I was hoping NVIDIA would come to it's senses and slash the 4080-16s MSRP to fill the sacked 4080-12s initial ask of $900. Yep an unsound expectation but its hardly completely irrational. Not that i'd buy it - I'm not going to budge from honouring my predetermined $800 gpu-upgrade.... not a dollar/cent more! Even $800 is a HUGE charitable sum of cash to throw at these famished beneficiaries and not long ago this sort of price tag was touching on flagship territory. Now it seems we'd be lucky to see a mid-ranged XX7X card for this sort of budget ceiling. Even AMD's second to the top 7900XT @ $900 is a middle finger to the price-2-performance conscientious buyer... what a terrible year for upgrades and the ~2022 upgrade hype/fervour remains shot and crippled in the knees.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> AMD's second to the top 7900XT @ $900 is a middle finger to the price-2-performance conscientious buyer


That was on my mind, 7900xt seems more like a 6800XT replacement in terms of performance(estimated, we'll see), don't know why amd opted for the xtx branding since it would not even be on par with the 4090. The real naming should have been 7900xt & 7800xt.
Because now the 7800xt will seat behind the 7900xt that most probably will lose to the 4080. Then this gen x80 amd gpu will compete with x70 nvidia gpu.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Nov 16, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> I'm happy to adjust 4090 pricing if someone sends me a USA in-stock link with a better price
> 
> edit: any 4090, not FE


I think should be noted what MSRP is for reviews along with the
Etailer price of more than one etailer because it was reported(front page news) that the 4090 MSRP is $1600 and the 4080 at $1200 and we all know newegg is all about the price gouging so its not surprising they inflated the price. What did Nvidia claim the 
FEs msrp is at? (not the newegg price!)


----------



## neatfeatguy (Nov 16, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> I think should be noted what MSRP is for reviews along with the
> Etailer price of more than one etailer because it was reported(front page news) that the 4090 MSRP is $1600 and the 4080 at $1200 and we all know newegg is all about the price gouging so its not surprising they inflated the price. What did Nvidia claim the
> FEs msrp is at? (not the newegg price!)



Remember that Newegg themselves are not asking over MSRP or retail listed pricing for AIBs, only third party/scalpers are. I think listing a scalper's price is disingenuous by claiming it's a newegg price...even trying to suggest a lower ebay price isn't appropriate, if you ask me.

I think there should be a MSRP price column and a scalper's price column.


----------



## EatingDirt (Nov 16, 2022)

Upgrayedd said:


> Borderlands 3 has a 3fps difference between 1080p and 4K with a 4080 and 5800X. Less than 1 fps with a 4090.
> Hitman 3 and Halo Infinite are nearly 20% faster with X3D at 4K. Which are both showing clear bottlenecks.  It's not negligible


3 out of 25 will make a small impact if you understand how percentages work. 

Average of 23% in those 3 games, that of which are 12% of the reviewed games in the 4k would give the 4090's score an increase of around 3%. That's it. So you'll end up with a 4090 at 125% of the performance of the 4080 to 128%. 

The 4080's score will basically not change, because Borderlands 3 was the only game in which it was still limited by the 5800x (4% of games), and it likely wasn't limited by much (~5%) according to looking where it fell in the aggregate score.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Nov 16, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> Remember that Newegg themselves are not asking over MSRP or retail listed pricing for AIBs, only third party/scalpers are. I think listing a scalper's price is disingenuous by claiming it's a newegg price...even trying to suggest a lower ebay price isn't appropriate, if you ask me.
> 
> I think there should be a MSRP price column and a scalper's price column.


scalper prices seemed to have jumped to $3500. The rest of ask what the MSRP is...


----------



## Zareek (Nov 16, 2022)

Great card, horrible/shameful pricing!


----------



## @man_daddio (Nov 16, 2022)

Ayhamb99 said:


> @W1zzard Great review as always!
> 
> The card's performance and efficiency gains over the 3080 would be impressive but that becomes irrelevant when the next generation 80 card also come with around a 70% increase in price... I am really hoping that AMD's 7900 XTX and 7900 XT and Intel's future GPU cards really bring it and kick Nvidia's butt because at this point this is ridiculous with the insane prices.


You have a good point but it's kind of irrelevant if you would like to upgrade a GPU that has RT and other features the RTX cards have.

People either want the RTX features or they don't. At least that's a logical way to look at it. 

But AMD has not had a great history in the drivers department. Nor having the greatest software implementation. 

The next step down is going to be the 4070 TI or people can wait for the 4080 TI but who knows when that's going to be out?

Therefore right now obviously there's only the 4090 the 4080 and the 7900 XTX. 

As much as I don't like the prices of the 4080/4090 they would still be the card I would be looking at if I needed an upgrade right now.

I just don't have any desire to go AMD at this time. Maybe the next generation they will be able to match Nvidia on everything and then I might consider.



DeathtoGnomes said:


> scalper prices seemed to have jumped to $3500. The rest of ask what the MSRP is...


If I was to buy a RTX 4090 I would just buy a pre-built system. Here in the states you can get one with great hardware for under $4,000.



Garrus said:


> Then that would be a pro for every video card release ever. Cross generational comparisons to determine efficiency don't make sense. You compare with the other cards in the gen. The GTX 1070 was 60-70 percent faster than the GTX 970, I didn't see people saying "most efficient ever".


I don't care about power but that is much more of a concern today than it was when the 1070 came out. 
Worrying about power is basically a EU thing. And other authoritarian areas that nanny everything and text people to death.


----------



## Razrback16 (Nov 16, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> I'm not going to budge from honouring my predetermined $800 gpu-upgrade.... not a dollar/cent more! Even $800 is a HUGE charitable sum of cash to throw at these famished beneficiaries and not long ago this sort of price tag was touching on flagship territory


Well-said. Hopefully more consumers collectively say 'no' to Nvidia's ludicrous pricing. As long as some are willing to pay it, though, expect prices to just keep on rising. I enjoyed seeing how quickly they dropped the cost of the 3090 Ti when consumers were smart enough not to buy it. We need to see a lot more of that where people recognize a bad buy and opt out.
I haven't purchased a 'new' video card since 2017. Just been picking up used gear on ebay and that will continue for the foreseeable future.


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 16, 2022)

N3M3515 said:


> That was on my mind, 7900xt seems more like a 6800XT replacement in terms of performance(estimated, we'll see), don't know why amd opted for the xtx branding since it would not even be on par with the 4090. The real naming should have been 7900xt & 7800xt.
> Because now the 7800xt will seat behind the 7900xt that most probably will lose to the 4080. Then this gen x80 amd gpu will compete with x70 nvidia gpu.



Looks like AMD's accepted defeat right at the top... also with the intimidating 4090 TI/SUPER/or-what-not looming. So a RDNA3 top of the range XTX from the get-go and then as we go down the ladder smaller performance differentials per model to keep up with a stronger challenge at the mid-segment compo. A bit of a fail with the XT sitting at $900... but i'm hoping the 7800XX will be closely trailing at a lower price point to compensate.



Razrback16 said:


> Well-said. Hopefully more consumers collectively say 'no' to Nvidia's ludicrous pricing. As long as some are willing to pay it, though, expect prices to just keep on rising.
> I haven't purchased a 'new' video card since 2017. Just been picking up used gear on ebay and that will continue for the foreseeable future.



SNAP! lol. I too purchased a 1080 TI in _"2017" _and then waited a lifetime.... not long ago settled with a "used" liquid mod 2080 TI from a trusted source as a placeholder for the bigger and better. TBH, i'm not in a frantic need for an upgrade, the current setup without the on-screen FPS counter does the job well. Only for a couple of GPU-heavy titles i would have fancied something a little stronger to comfortably engage 1440p's (144hz) 90-120fps+ performance target. With 40-series/RDNA3 i'm expecting way more than the initial perf target..... they say good things come to those who wait... they forgot the bit "only this time around it will cost you an arm and a leg and if you haven't strapped your balls they'll take that too"... mines strapped with 800 strings of manhood


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

@man_daddio said:


> As much as I don't like the prices of the 4080/4090 they would still be the card I would be looking at if I needed an upgrade right now.


Maybe you would happily swallow a +$500 price increase, most people even if they want rt, won't.


----------



## gmn 17 (Nov 16, 2022)

Is there going to be a new geforce driver for this release?


----------



## Prima.Vera (Nov 16, 2022)

Nothing in this world can justify the callous prices of the 40x0 series right now. Nothing.
Also, currently there are ZERO quality games that require you to buy this generation to play them. Until good games with latest UE5 Engine are released, for example, no need to have more than the last generation of cards to play them. Even so, the UE5 Engine is very good optimized so it doesn't require the latest and most expensivest of GPUs to play the games, even on 4K.
So, really, what is the purpose of those ridiculously overpriced cards in the end??


----------



## wolf (Nov 16, 2022)

Very much appreciate the thorough review as always W1z, and I agree with essentially all of your conclusion.

Price - yuk
Product - excellent and feature rich
DLSS3 - loads of potential
efficiency - record setting

Sure shows that Samsung 8nm held back Ampere imo, if it was TSMC 7nm at the time there would have been a bigger leap from Turing but now a lower leap from Ampere to Ada. 

My biggest gripe is the physical size of these cards, far out they do not need to be that big, pretty much same as all the 4090's which means I will have trouble fitting any in my case... ergh

Keen to see the 7900 series launch, allow a few months for the dust to settle and re-evaluate whether I want to jump into this gen at all or wait for RTX 50 / Radeon 8000 series


----------



## arsh666 (Nov 16, 2022)

This would be a great card if it costed 300 bucks.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Nov 16, 2022)

I don't love the price, but I'm pleased to see they're giving it more than 10GB VRAM at >$1000, at least.

Man, I really hope there's some fierce competition between the AMD and Nvidia $400 GPUs. If not, these stupid goddamn prices are going to kill the recovering PC gaming market and drive us back a decade to the days of console dominance where Microsoft and Sony had their exclusives and if any of them EVER made it to the PC, they were shoddy afterthoughs of a port which ran like crap.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 16, 2022)

Eh, I can understand why the 5800X bottleneck was largely unknown on the 4090 review.  Comparing that review to other reviews with faster CPUs yielded interesting numbers that showed how CPU was becoming far more important on higher end rigs, which was a good learning from that review for those that cross compared.

But this time?  There's supposed to be meaning to that word in the sentence above, 'learning'. 

The usefulness of the data presented here as a "GPU" review becomes very limited due to running on a 5800X.  You could have just as well done the review on a 10900K or a 12400 or some such.

This becomes a "If you buy a $1200 GPU and pair with a $250 CPU this is what happens" kind of scenario.   It's one of those scenarios that doesn't much exist, sort of like when Toms buys an Asus Maximus and sticks DDR4-4800 in it at JEDEC speeds. 

This is just not useful info.


----------



## dir_d (Nov 16, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Eh, I can understand why the 5800X bottleneck was largely unknown on the 4090 review.  Comparing that review to other reviews with faster CPUs yielded interesting numbers that showed how CPU was becoming far more important on higher end rigs, which was a good learning from that review for those that cross compared.
> 
> But this time?  There's supposed to be meaning to that word in the sentence above, 'learning'.
> 
> ...


W1zz already stated he's building a new test rig with a 13900k after the 7900XTX review in december. The 4k is accurate and so is the 1440P for the most part.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 16, 2022)

dir_d said:


> W1zz already stated he's building a new test rig with a 13900k after the 7900XTX review in december. The 4k is accurate and so is the 1440P for the most part.



Yep, I saw that. 

And then I posted anyway, because the data is still pretty close to useless.

Example:  +38% vs +50%, 5800X vs 12900K :


----------



## EatingDirt (Nov 16, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Eh, I can understand why the 5800X bottleneck was largely unknown on the 4090 review.  Comparing that review to other reviews with faster CPUs yielded interesting numbers that showed how CPU was becoming far more important on higher end rigs, which was a good learning from that review for those that cross compared.
> 
> But this time?  There's supposed to be meaning to that word in the sentence above, 'learning'.
> 
> ...


The amount in which the 4080 is faster than the 3090 Ti is fairly consistent at all resolutions. A small uptick of 3% from 1080p to 1440p & 2% at 1440p to 4k. It shows that the 5800X is barely bottlenecking the 4080 at 1440p & 4k. 

Those numbers indicate that the 4080 would still be a decent upgrade for a system with something like a 5800X, 10700-10900k or 12600 series CPU if you're playing at 1440p or 4k.


----------



## Crackong (Nov 16, 2022)

great card with an insane price tag meant to upsell the 4090 as its sole purpose


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

Prima.Vera said:


> Nothing in this world can justify the callous prices of the 40x0 series right now. Nothing.


Not even the request?
  for 4090 msrp, but buyers consider themselves lucky if they find the product $300 more expensive. I can't believe that nVidia limited the production. They have almost two months in which they can sell a lot and expensively until AMD comes with a counteroffer.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 16, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> PERFORMANCE: better than expected
> 
> 
> EFFICIENCY: I guess its fantastic by "current standards" and beats last Gen!
> ...


They cancel the name "4080-12GB", not the price point.
You will still have your ~900$ NV GPU sooner than later.



wheresmycar said:


> Looks like AMD's accepted defeat right at the top... also with the intimidating 4090 TI/SUPER/or-what-not looming. So a RDNA3 top of the range XTX from the get-go and then as we go down the ladder smaller performance differentials per model to keep up with a stronger challenge at the mid-segment compo. A bit of a fail with the XT sitting at $900... but i'm hoping the 7800XX will be closely trailing at a lower price point to compensate.
> 
> 
> 
> SNAP! lol. I too purchased a 1080 TI in _"2017" _and then waited a lifetime.... not long ago settled with a "used" liquid mod 2080 TI from a trusted source as a placeholder for the bigger and better. TBH, i'm not in a frantic need for an upgrade, the current setup without the on-screen FPS counter does the job well. Only for a couple of GPU-heavy titles i would have fancied something a little stronger to comfortably engage 1440p's (144hz) 90-120fps+ performance target. With 40-series/RDNA3 i'm expecting way more than the initial perf target..... they say good things come to those who wait... they forgot the bit "only this time around it will cost you an arm and a leg and if you haven't strapped your balls they'll take that too"... mines strapped with 800 strings of manhood


Still plenty of room for AMD to make an 500w RX7950 to match or beat 4090/ti. Put 32GB of fastest DDR6 on it and call it a day.


----------



## The King (Nov 16, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> RTX 4090 & 53 Games: Ryzen 7 5800X vs Ryzen 7 5800X3D Review
> 
> 
> How much performance can you gain with Ryzen 7 5800X3D over the non-3DV Cache Ryzen 7 5800X when using the mighty GeForce RTX 4090? Our review has the answer, we test 53 games at three resolutions.
> ...


I have pointed out twice that it seems the test setup is running 2X8GB sticks when testing the with 5800X. This config does not benefit from Dual rank like a 2X16GB kit.
In some games up to +/-8% increase in min and max FPS can be seen with a dual rank memory setup on ZEN 3 vs single rank setups.

Also notice the 4X8GB 3800 CL18 kit performs mostly worse VS the 4X8GB 3200 CL14 kit in most tests except in RDR2. So 4000 CL20?! 2X16GB 3600 14-14-14 would have been a better choice here.


----------



## bobmeix (Nov 16, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> oh wow .. i had to read that part 3 times trying to find the mistake, and i've read the conclusion several times, and our proofreader, and most of our team members, too. fixing ..


It seems I have an eye for the odd ones out...


----------



## gffermari (Nov 16, 2022)

N3M3515 said:


> Wait for it, the 4060 Ti looks like



what’s the point if the 4060Ti cost 699$ and perform like a 3080?

….please don’t say the DLSS 3….

Since the new gen doesn’t replace the cards below 1000, we are stagnating and that’s why the 3080 price hasn’t been affected 2 years after the release.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

49% uplift in 4K games over RTX 3080 (from 81 to 121 average FPS), price uplift over 70%.

Thay's all you need to know.

Even a 50% price increase for a 50% performance uplift would have been disappointment. This is just sad.

And it will affect the whole GPU scene. AMD is a minor player with limited ability to offer large quantities of cards, so if they will be competitive you can only ecpect similar prices, give or take a few percent. If not officially, then by scalping (by online scalpers, or even by AIBs themselves).

And what's with the comments that the performance increase is something groundbreaking, and it justifies the price increase? ? GTX 980 to GTX 1080 was greater, RTX 2080 to RTX 3080 was greater - you can see it even in this review, average FPS of RTX 2080 at 4K is 50.2, of RTX 3080 is 81, a 61.3% uplift. 

Infact, the only release with worse performance increase in last 10 years was RTX 2080 - and that showed in Nvidia's revenue for the whole duration of Turing generation.


----------



## big_glasses (Nov 16, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Yep, I saw that.
> 
> And then I posted anyway, because the data is still pretty close to useless.
> 
> ...


are they using the same scenes?


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Garrus said:


> Then that would be a pro for every video card release ever. Cross generational comparisons to determine efficiency don't make sense. You compare with the other cards in the gen. The GTX 1070 was 60-70 percent faster than the GTX 970, I didn't see people saying "most efficient ever".


What? This is literally how these comparisons always work. What are you supposed to make efficiency comparisons against, except for other GPUs that exist? And you can't have paid much attention to those 1070 reviews. For the most part, they were saying things along the lines of "the performance improvement is great, but the efficiency improvement is nowhere near what Maxwell brought to the table".


----------



## ratirt (Nov 16, 2022)

I wonder, how many leather jackets I can buy for $1000? I surely cant buy a decent card from NVidia for that price. Might as well buy a decent leather jacket. Aint that right Jensen?
Ridiculous pricing for the card. From disgust and disappointment, turning  into mocking laughter.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 16, 2022)

2.1KG, 3 slot brick, shaky adapter, 1200+ lolcoins... and all it really is, is shrunk Ampere with flashy new pictures of the die and new DLSS.

Hard Pass. I don't understand this product.



Xex360 said:


> Great review though as usual here!
> As for the card, it's stupidly overpriced just like the 4090, and then the new RT cores what are they doing, the card loses performance similarly to Ampere, only the 4090 is step up in this regard.
> Again wasted silicon.


As predicted, low hanging fruit is already gone, RT is brute force in the end, so there is only so much they can do without again sacrificing IQ they were supposed to be improving with the technology, or sacrificing raster performance and nobody in their right mind will cripple cards with competition in the high end, which clearly is happening even with RDNA2 already. The only way they get more RT perf now is by increasing the latency hit. Well yay, console-latency gaming on your >1200+ dollar gaming PC, enjoy the hidden peasantry. PCMR is becoming the PC Meme Race, a parody of itself by now. All you can really boast about is chasing the cutting edge of your wallet.

The gap in RT performance is negligible, especially in that high end, other factors are going to be more important for the most sensible upgrade path.

Early adopting, as always, has a price, and offers no real advantages.


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> 49% uplift in 4K games over RTX 3080 (from 81 to 121 average FPS), price uplift over 70%.
> 
> Thay's all you need to know.
> 
> Even a 50% price increase for a 50% performance uplift would have been disappointment. This is just sad.


It is not measured by the meter. In 4k, even 10 fps more can make you happy. You will not notice differences in 1080p or 1440p, where the counter exceeds 100 fps, but at higher resolutions it changes the page.
Of course, everyone has their own options. It can play excrementably in 4K or invest in a video card that will give it at least a decent experience.



Vayra86 said:


> 2.1KG, 3 slot brick, shaky adapter, 1200+ lolcoins... and all it really is, is shrunk Ampere with flashy new pictures of the die and new DLSS.
> 
> Hard Pass. I don't understand this product.


Except for the adapter, I can't understand you. Did you pay attention to the temperatures? They could offer you a 0.5 Kg flea with 85-95 degrees, for the feeling.
The heavy weight comes from the best performing cooler that a founder edition has had so far. At 300-400W you should have SSD temperatures, priceless.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 16, 2022)

Garrus said:


> Then that would be a pro for every video card release ever. Cross generational comparisons to determine efficiency don't make sense. You compare with the other cards in the gen. The GTX 1070 was 60-70 percent faster than the GTX 970, I didn't see people saying "most efficient ever".


Not true, take a look.
At: Turing vs Ampere.

This is watt/frame. Again: Samsung 8nm. Ampere held efficiency upgrades in the architecture, and they served only to offset the node characteristics while improving performance.
In the age of questionable node shrinks/marketing around it, these things are changing.







RandallFlagg said:


> Yep, I saw that.
> 
> And then I posted anyway, because the data is still pretty close to useless.
> 
> ...


Relatively there's barely a difference. A faster CPU elevates all the numbers. Per-game gaps may be bigger, but vary too much.


----------



## laszlo (Nov 16, 2022)

pricing is good; is made for those who work at Nvidia and have a wage of min 3000 $/month ;hope Jensen force them to buy one card/person....

i won't pay more than 400 for a decent gpu red or green period; seems my upgrade had to wait...in the end games are not a priority considering current economic situation which may be worse next year...better to have reserves for living/unexpected spending's,  than a piece of silicon...


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> It is not measured by the meter. In 4k, even 10 fps more can make you happy. You will not notice differences in 1080p or 1440p, where the counter exceeds 100 fps, but at higher resolutions it changes the page.
> Of course, everyone has their own options. It can play excrementably in 4K or invest in a video card that will give it at least a decent experience.


All you're saying here is that "for some people, performance matters more than price". This isn't a counterargument to people pointing out the horrendous value of this GPU, its just a statement about humans generally not being rational beings. Which is true, but also irrelevant. Just because some people for whatever reason don't care about value doesn't make that less relevant. And this GPU, while very fast, delivers _worse_ performance per dollar than its predecessors. That isn't progress, that's a regression. If you are privileged enough to not care about value, please at least have the perspective to recognize that this isn't a privilege afforded to everyone.



laszlo said:


> work at Nvidia and have a wage of min 3000 $/month


What Nvidia employees make just $36 000/year? I get what you're saying, but maybe replace 3000 with 10 000?


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> It is not measured by the meter. In 4k, even 10 fps more can make you happy. You will not notice differences in 1080p or 1440p, where the counter exceeds 100 fps, but at higher resolutions it changes the page.
> Of course, everyone has their own options. It can play excrementably in 4K or invest in a video card that will give it at least a decent experience.



Of course, everyone can purchase what they think is reasonable. But think for a moment what would constant regression in price / performance actually bring us in the long run.






If we focus just on GeForce series, Nvidia Geforce 256 started it all at $250 in 1999. Let's assume a 50% generational uplift (there were some with much more, and some with much less), and of course a 50% price increase, because it's apparently even OK to have a 70% price increase from generation to generation now.

Only 10 generations later a GeForce 100 series flagship would cost over 14.000 dollars in 2010. And of course a proper price for Ada flagship less than 20 generations after GeForce 256 would be half a million dollars. And only two generations later we'll be over one million, so better buy now!

Still sounds logical to have the same or even worse price increase as performance increase?


----------



## `Orum (Nov 16, 2022)

LFaWolf said:


> For those that are math challenged, compared to 3080 10GB, it is (100-67)/67 = 49% faster in 4K, and at a cost of ($1200-$700)/$700=71% increase in price. You decide if it is worth it for you.


The big difference, of course, is VRAM.  For gaming this (mostly) doesn't matter, but when it comes to productivity, namely AI workloads, it matters a whole lot.



Vario said:


> Just a launch price, probably will come down once they milk the early adopters.


It won't, or at least, not for some time.  Remember, Nvidia got played by the crypto market as hard as a grandmother putting her life savings into it at the peak of the bubble, and _massively_ over-purchased Ampere silicon. The high prices you are seeing are not because they want to milk early adopters--it's the opposite.  They want to milk late adopters (i.e. those still buying Ampere in 2023) as much as they can.  Ampere mid and low-end (3070 and below) cards are still selling _at or above_ MSRP, here in Q4 2022, _more than two years_ after they were released (and well after "the merge").

The only way this works is if Lovelace is at no performance/price advantage, which is where it sits now, and where it's going to sit until one of the following happens:

Nvidia finally sells out of Ampere stock (this will take quite a long time at current pricing)
AMD forces their hand by having *a lot* of RDNA3 cards available at reasonable pricing
Even if Nvidia were to discount mid/low-end Ampere, it's likely only going to be to keep them in line with Lovelace pricing when equivalent 'tier' cards launch.  I don't see that happening until late Q1 at the earliest, and even that assumes that AMD will play some role in forcing them to release (e.g. releasing the 7600 XT, 7700, and/or 7700 XT).  We'll still be paying just as much percent more in money for them as they are percent faster.

In any case, I don't feel we as consumers should have to pay for Nvidia's mistake.


----------



## Richards (Nov 16, 2022)

@W1zzard  you got to add 3dmark speedway to the suite


----------



## Sake (Nov 16, 2022)

Most people here wish that AMD 7900 card perform, than maybe nvidia will lower the prices so they can buy an Nvidia card. Ridiculous


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

`Orum said:


> Remember, Nvidia got played by the crypto market as hard as a grandmother putting her life savings into it at the peak of the bubble, and _massively_ over-purchased Ampere silicon. The high prices you are seeing are not because they want to milk early adopters--it's the opposite.  They want to milk late adopters (i.e. those still buying Ampere in 2023) as much as they can.  Ampere mid and low-end (3070 and below) cards are still selling _at or above_ MSRP, here in Q4 2022, _more than two years_ after they were released (and well after "the merge").



Poor Nvidia, we should organize a GoFundMe!

Ofcourse the record revenues during the cryptoinsanity were barely enough to cover the rising manufacturing costs (not true, for the sake of people who can't detect sarcasm).

And most of the extra profit over the almost two year fool's gold rush was earned by the AIBs, or stores, or even scalpers, Nvidia sold only for the old MSRP calculated costs (not true, for the sake of people who can't detect sarcasm).

Remember the previous cryptocrash in 2018?

There was a lot of talk Nvidia also miscalculated and ordered large quantities of Pascal flagships, and throughout all 2018 and even after the release of Turing people were wondering how Nvidia will use all those unsold chips, perhaps cutting them down so they wouldn't interfere with Turing sales? And then the talk stopped when we realized there won't be any new Pascal flagship cards. What happened? Who cares, Nvidia got enough money during cryptoinsanity they could just chuck them in a landfill.

High GPU prices only make sense if it's combined with scatcity, and if there's no great demand, there mustn't be great supply.


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> All you're saying here is that "for some people, performance matters more than price". This isn't a counterargument to people pointing out the horrendous value of this GPU, its just a statement about humans generally not being rational beings. Which is true, but also irrelevant. Just because some people for whatever reason don't care about value doesn't make that less relevant. And this GPU, while very fast, delivers _worse_ performance per dollar than its predecessors. That isn't progress, that's a regression. If you are privileged enough to not care about value, please at least have the perspective to recognize that this isn't a privilege afforded to everyone.





Bwaze said:


> Of course, everyone can purchase what they think is reasonable. But think for a moment what would constant regression in price / performance actually bring us in the long run.
> 
> View attachment 270160
> 
> ...


Gentlemen, you have the right not to buy, but I don't understand why you are complaining? Who will take into account? As you can see, the high price for msrp is even small next to the one regulated by the free market. If nVidia now recommends (msrp = recommendation) $1000 for the 4090 and $500 for the 4080, do you think you will buy at those prices?
I caught communism and I know what the mercurial (imposed price) is. The products you were looking for could not be found in stores and were sold on the black market at the price regulated by it. At a 50% lower price, the entire production would be taken over by integrators and speculators, and you still buy them at the current price.
If you are not AMD fans, with no intention of buying even at $500, then you really have a problem with the correct perception of reality.

It's simple for me: I don't buy! And I'm not even complaining. They can sell them a GT 4010 for $10,000 or $1,000,000, that's their job, because then there will be more people who won't buy, they'll be left with unsold goods and go bankrupt. In reality, everything is calculated. They have some well-trained people who inspect the market and it seems that they do a good job if a 4090, with an MSRP of $1499, you can barely find it for $2000.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

So be prepared:

2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
2024, RTX 5080 - $1800
2026, RTX 6080 - $2700
2028, RTX 7080 - $4050
2030, RTX 8080 - $6075
2032, RTX 9080 - $9112
2034, RTX 1080 - $13669

And I was being generous, only 50% generational price increase, not the current 70% one. With 70% price increases it looks even more extortion market behaviour:

2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
2024, RTX 5080 - $2040
2026, RTX 6080 - $3468
2028, RTX 7080 - $5896
2030, RTX 8080 - $10022
2032, RTX 9080 - $17038
2034, RTX 1080 - $28965

But of course, this 70% price increase for a generation with a below average performance increase is just one off, right? Although the reasons you people cite hold for every generation...


----------



## Prima.Vera (Nov 16, 2022)

That's because they don't have those cards in stock for various reason such as, extremely low yields for the top GPUs due to their complexity; keeping artificially the stocks low and prices up in order to sell the left overs from the next generation, plain and simple callous greed, etc.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 16, 2022)

Read some of the complaints, and tbh i think Nvidia should ask for even more as people would still buy.
Glad i don't have to buy the newest thing or my head explode like some people.

Now we need crypto back to make this things 10.000$


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> Gentlemen, you have the right not to buy, but I don't understand why you are complaining? Who will take into account? As you can see, the high price for msrp is even small next to the one regulated by the free market. If nVidia now recommends (msrp = recommendation) $1000 for the 4090 and $500 for the 4080, do you think you will buy at those prices?
> I caught communism and I know what the mercurial (imposed price) is. The products you were looking for could not be found in stores and were sold on the black market at the price regulated by it. At a 50% lower price, the entire production would be taken over by integrators and speculators, and you still buy them at the current price.
> If you are not AMD fans, with no intention of buying even at $500, then you really have a problem with the correct perception of reality.
> 
> It's simple for me: I don't buy! And I'm not even complaining. They can sell them a GT 4010 for $10,000 or $1,000,000, that's their job, because then there will be more people who won't buy, they'll be left with unsold goods and go bankrupt. In reality, everything is calculated. They have some well-trained people who inspect the market and it seems that they do a good job if a 4090, with an MSRP of $1499, you can barely find it for $2000.


That is an impressive amounts of things that are not arguments in any way, but just various ways of repeating "nobody can do anything to affect anything at all, we're all just free-floating atoms in the void". It's got to be pretty depressing to live in a world where literally nothing can be affected by anything else, honestly. Like, what do you even care about at that point? Why try anything at all?

Counterpoint: we are complaining because Nvidia's job is to provide us with useful products. You admit as much yourself in the part where you try to say that their job is to make money - 'cause if they try too hard at that, they will go bankrupt. Which tells us that "making money" isn't the core of the business, as it's not an activity contingent upon itself - it's contingent on a more basic function - producing and selling useful products at acceptable prices. Profits are a byproduct of the core business of the company, which is making useful products. The complaints come from the fact that they are actively making these products massively unaffordable in order to line their own pockets - what is otherwise known as exploitation. So, the answer to your question is in what you yourself wrote: we are complaining because Nvidia is failing at the core function of their existence as a company, and are instead pushing as hard as they can to maximize their own profits. This has actual, real-world harmful effects to their customers, who lose their ability to pursue cherished activities (whether for business or pleasure), or are made to over-spend in order to do so (which has its own share of harmful effects). Why would anyone not protest against this? I mean, "the right not to buy" is _itself_ a protest. It's just a woefully ineffectual one - literally the least effective form of protest possible, of shutting up and walking away. You presenting that as somehow a trump card argument _against_ people protesting is just outright stupid.

We're well accustomed to your brand of die-hard hyper libertarian thinking here, but the massive logical flaws behind that kind of thinking don't go away just because you keep repeating them, nor do they go away because of your vague, hand-wavy quasi-straw man "I've seen what communism can do" hyperbole.


Bwaze said:


> So be prepared:
> 
> 2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
> 2024, RTX 5080 - $1800
> ...


So what you're saying is that in ~2036, the price of a flagship GPU will surpass the global median wage? I guess that adds up.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 16, 2022)

Prima.Vera said:


> That's because they don't have those cards in stock for various reason such as, extremely low yields for the top GPUs due to their complexity; keeping artificially the stocks low and prices up in order to sell the left overs from the next generation, plain and simple callous greed, etc.



given the price i wouldn't make many of them because i would never guess there were so many nuts willing to part with their money, i bet Nvidia thought the same. But idiots keep being idiots and they are multiplying 
Nvidia just wanted to move the old 3*** cards and never expected that people would line to buy this overpriced crap


----------



## Shatun_Bear (Nov 16, 2022)

$1200, street price more like $1500-1600 for AIB cards as these FE's will be completely non-existent again for about 2 years like the previous 3080...

I remember when I bought an 80-tier card (AIB GTX 980) for £350. Price has quadrupled in 5 years!


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

People are also defending this extraordinary price increase as "it doesn't matter what the product is called, so what if RTX 4080 is priced as RTX 3090 was, and RTX 4070 will come at RTX 3080 price, roughly $700 - you buy the price and performance bracket, not the name" 

We can see what will that get us in a couple of generations, for roughly $1200, probably corrected for inflation (because why not) youl'll get:

2022, RTX 4080, $1200
2024, RTX 5070, $1440
2026, RTX 6060, $1728
2028, RTX 7050, $2074
2030, RTX 8040, $2488
2032, RTX 9030, $2986
2034, RTX 10020, $3583


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 16, 2022)

Like gamers nexus Steve said we are supposed to get more performance, that's the natural evolution, what isn't natural is having to pay more in proportion, that's not progress.
Nvidia just solves for x performance increase and them multiply x by the price of the last card.

Stop buying into this, you'll never see the end, and will be paying new car money for a gpu in a couple generations. You're already paying used car money


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

Gentlemen, I give an example of how the free market  is regulated (capture). It will also be adjusted for video cards if AMD comes up with something competitive.
Continue the protests, please.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Shatun_Bear said:


> $1200, street price more like $1500-1600 for AIB cards as these FE's will be completely non-existent again for about 2 years like the previous 3080...
> 
> I remember when I bought an 80-tier card (AIB GTX 980) for £350. Price has quadrupled in 5 years!


Yep, this is the key part. It used to be that MSRP set the starting point, with partner models adding a bit to that, and prices then dropping noticeably over the next couple of years until a new generation arrived. Now, instead, we have MSRPs as an unachievable minimum, with prices staying well above this until the next generation arrives - which in turn sets it MSRPs higher than the previous generation. I mean, we went from 80-tier launching at $549 (980) to 699 (1080 - technically the MSRP was 599 but the Founders Edition was 699 and nearly all partner models matched or exceeded that initially) to 799 (2080 founders) to a nominal 700 (!!!) with the 3080, but that MSRP was so woefully unrealistic that it took two full years for it to materialize. And now we have an 80-tier at $1200! This is pure insanity, plain and simple.

According to TPU reviews:

GPUMSRP/Founders EditionPrice at launch of next genRelative performance over previous genGTX 980549400 (72% of launch after ~20 months)+ ~30% @1080p/1600pGTX 1080599/699 (+9%/27%)470 (67%, + >2 years)+~56% performance @1080p,+ ~67% @1440pRTX 2080699/799 (+17%/14%)600 (75%, + 2 years)+ ~37% @1440p, +45% @2160pRTX 3080699 (+0%! On paper, though.)660 (94%, +2 years)+ ~51% @1440p, + ~67% @2160pRTX 40801199 (_*+71%*_)+ ~37% @1440p*, + ~49% @2160p
*RTX 4080 at 1440p is at least somewhat CPU limited

So, what conclusions can we draw here?
- Historically, the performance increase of the 4080 is ... okay. Not the worst, not the best. Blazing fast, yes, but that's expected. The overall increase is decidedly middle-of-the-road, RTX 2080-like.
- The MSRP increase is unprecedented in a way that really can't be exaggerated - it's just stunningly horrible
- The fact that RTX 3080 prices are still at 94% of MSRP two years later also shows that there is something _very_ wrong with this market

So, in terms of performance, this is decent. In terms of value, it's atrocious - an actual regression, where you pay more per frame than with the previous generation at MSRP. This of course says something about market conditions that aren't entirely in Nvidia's hands, but the MSRP of this card is indefensible both in light of current market realities and its actual performance.



Gica said:


> Gentlemen, I give an example of how the free market  is regulated (capture). It will also be adjusted for video cards if AMD comes up with something competitive.
> Continue the protests, please.


Yep, 'cause a single screenshot of a random selection of products with random snapshot prices at a random point in time is proof of a self-regulating market. Yep, that's all you need, economics are solved. On to the next problem!

(/s, in case that wasn't abundantly clear)


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Like gamers nexus Steve said we are supposed to get more performance, that's the natural evolution, what isn't natural is having to pay more in proportion, that's not progress.
> Nvidia just solves for x performance increase and them multiply x by the price of the last card.
> 
> Stop buying into this, you'll never see the end, and will be paying new car money for a gpu in a couple generations. You're already paying used car money



It's actually worse. Compared to RTX 3080 it's 50% faster in 4K and *70% more expensive*. 

The only way this price increase makes "sense" is by comparing RTX 4080 to RTX 3090 Ti which came out in the middle of cryptolunacy and had a pre-scalped MSRP. 

But no gamer bought gaming cards for such prices, or so few it's not really relevant in any way. 

Remember the times when crypto enthusiasts were bold enough to openly declare themselves on such forums? There were many that claimed that price increases during crypto bull runs are actually a good thing - for a relatively short period new cards would be of course out of reach of gamers, but extra money for card developers, AIBs, even stores will eventually trickle down to gamers, and after an inevitable crash there would be plenty of cheap used (well cared for) cards available for all! And Nvidia, AMD could use the extra revenue to offer better cards for lower prices for gamers, when the bull runs end?


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> But no gamer bought gaming cards for such prices, or so few it's not really relevant in any way.


More accurately, quite a few did, but they were acting out of desperation, as many of them were literally forced to not leave their home at the time.

It's almost as if people's purchasing behaviours can be affected by outside events, and that this makes people susceptible to manipulation. Who knew?


----------



## Vario (Nov 16, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> It's actually worse. Compared to RTX 3080 it's 50% faster in 4K and *70% more expensive*.
> 
> The only way this price increase makes "sense" is by comparing RTX 4080 to RTX 3090 Ti which came out in the middle of cryptolunacy and had a pre-scalped MSRP.
> 
> ...


"well cared for" LOL.  I'd rather not buy someone's used half dead crypto hardware, made that mistake before.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> More accurately, quite a few did, but they were acting out of desperation, as many of them were literally forced to not leave their home at the time.
> 
> It's almost as if people's purchasing behaviours can be affected by outside events, and that this makes people susceptible to manipulation. Who knew?



I was aiming solely at RTX 3090 Ti, which had $2000 MSRP, but it was of course sold for even higher scalped prices. And it's the only card that had such a discount after crypto crashed - it's MSRP was even officialy lowered to $1200 - but it's mostly sold out, and remaining cards are now more expensive than they were a while ago.

And yes, many gamers paid horribly inflated prices. Because it's a hobby for a lot of people, and having extra time during lockdowns it made sense to upgrade the computer - it was unfortunate that the crypto bull run coincided, but I bet it made Nvidia very, very happy.



By the way, remember when crypto crashed in 2018, and Nvidia claimed that it had very little influence on revenue? And for about two quarters Nvidia even showed the perfectly good revenues - until they plummeted, and it was obvious that Nvidia did some creative accountancy to hide the crypto revenue, extend it over a longer period.

Now the revenue plummeted as soon as crypto crashed, and we all just assumed that's the reason. What if we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, and the whole combined drop from less interest due to no more lockdowns, no more crypto, and less buying power due to incoming recession and high inflation is only coming?


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Yep, 'cause a single screenshot of a random selection of products with random snapshot prices at a random point in time is proof of a self-regulating market. Yep, that's all you need, economics are solved. On to the next problem!
> 
> (/s, in case that wasn't abundantly clear)


I can give thousands of examples. In that case, those who had AMD planned and were patient for a month saved ~$75, calculated "by eye". About 30% of the price of 32GB DDR5 5200MHz or 75% of the price of a decent cooler for r5/r7.
Employees of nVidia, AMD, etc. they are the employees of the investors, gentlemen. Investors want maximum profit, don't look at your complaints. If they can sell you a needle for $1,000,000, they will sell it for that much. Our chance at a low price remains only the competition between rivals, not the rivers of tears shed on the forums. 
From the launch of 4090 until December, nVidia plays alone. End of story.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> I can give thousands of examples. In that case, those who had AMD planned and were patient for a month saved ~$75, calculated "by eye". About 30% of the price of 32GB DDR5 5200MHz or 75% of the price of a decent cooler for r5/r7.


... but all this proves is that _prices vary_. Is anyone denying that?


Gica said:


> Investors want maximum profit, don't look at your complaints.


... and that is precisely what is being criticized. For-profit investing is a parasitic blemish on society, and does literally noting but bring about harm, including harming the core operations of the businesses they invest in by twisting them from "make good products" to "make as much money as possible, however you can". That's literally the entire point. You keep acting as if this is somehow just a law of nature rather than people making conscious choices within societal and legal frameworks that can either allow this or not. There are many, many ways of stopping this, and it's only through more than half a century of gradually implemented neoliberal politics that this type of profiteering has become possible at all. Please stop pretending as if this is just the way things are. It's the willed outcome of extremely wealthy and powerful people pushing politics in a specific direction for a long, long time in order to better their own situation at the cost of everyone else. And that can actually be changed, at least for those of us who don't live in dictatorships.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> Our chance at a low price remains only the competition between rivals, not the rivers of tears shed on the forums.



And by voting with our wallets. Most people don't, or shouldn't care which company has the performance crown, only who offers best bang for buck in a price bracket we are interested in - and very few of us aim for the flagships. And that also includes cards we already own - choosing not to upgrade this generation hurts Nvidia just as much as choosing AMD card. 

And I'd rather shed rivers of tears about scalping prices of new products than shed river of tears about other people that complain on internet forums that prices are too high for them. But to each his own. 

And I like to believe rivers of tears on internet is what convinced Nvidia to "unlaunch" RTX 4080 12GB for $900, it certainly wasn't competition.


----------



## Fourstaff (Nov 16, 2022)

Very nice uplift in performance over previous gen, very reasonable power consumption, but price is less than palatable. Unfortunately for us, this trend may continue for the following reasons: 1. rich people/streamer/influencers are moving to PC gaming, 2. cost insensitive companies are getting graphics cards for their AI/ML implementations, 3. TSMC is starting to charge increasingly large fees due to their market position and the R&D required for the next node shrink.


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... but all this proves is that _prices vary_. Is anyone denying that?
> 
> ... and that is precisely what is being criticized. For-profit investing is a parasitic blemish on society, and does literally noting but bring about harm, including harming the core operations of the businesses they invest in by twisting them from "make good products" to "make as much money as possible, however you can". That's literally the entire point. You keep acting as if this is somehow just a law of nature rather than people making conscious choices within societal and legal frameworks that can either allow this or not. There are many, many ways of stopping this, and it's only through more than half a century of gradually implemented neoliberal politics that this type of profiteering has become possible at all. Please stop pretending as if this is just the way things are. It's the willed outcome of extremely wealthy and powerful people pushing politics in a specific direction for a long, long time in order to better their own situation at the cost of everyone else. And that can actually be changed, at least for those of us who don't live in dictatorships.


And so? You can also become an investor. You start from zero and become a multimillionaire, if your head helps. Or you can ignore them and DON'T BUY!
Another way is to help Putin establish his new world order, or to implement communism, under the motto: RTX 4090 for all the people.  
Do you think you will change something with the girls on the forum?

I'm serious, maybe a devastating war would wake us up to reality. Maybe that's how we'll understand that a processor, video card or laptop is not a vital organ or a medicine that saves our lives and the scoundrels sell it at an unreasonably high price. They're just gadgets. We can survive without them or we can replace them with something cheaper.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> Another way is to help Putin establish his new world order, or to implement communism, under the motto: RTX 4090 for all the people.



Plot twist; The R in RTX stood for Russia all along.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> And so? You can also become an investor. You start from zero and become a multimillionaire, if your head helps. Or you can ignore them and DON'T BUY!


Yes, 'cause the only two valid courses of action here are either to wholeheartedly jump in for the ride, or to passively check out entirely. Yep. Makes sense. Like, can anyone even think of options outside of this?

Seriously, how limited is your imagination? What is it that makes you think in such extremely rigid and strict patterns, where people are rendered so utterly powerless as to either have the choice between going along with whatever is happening in the world, or checking out entirely? How, precisely, do you think things happen in the world, besides _people getting off their butts and doing things_?


Gica said:


> Another way is to help Putin establish his new world order, or to implement communism, under the motto: RTX 4090 for all the people.
> Do you think you will change something with the girls on the forum?


... so, let's see, you're saying a nationalist, fascist proto-dictator will implement an ideology he has literally nothing in common with, and that people arguing that we should be actively criticizing exploitative corporations are secretly vying for this, but not saying it out loud, in order to impress girls? It's damn impressive how you manage to cram so much sheer stupidity into two sentences, really.


----------



## BIGMicro (Nov 16, 2022)

Looking at the performance increase to the previous series and performance without enhancers like DLSS 3.0 and RT this card is really worth ~ 899$. 
Of course with the use RT and DLSS 3.0 and compared to AMD cards the increase is greater. However, the quality of new effects with use of RT is sometimes unsatisfactory and sometimes the opposite in terms of effects. After all, not every city is plunged into rain all the time, not every surface is glass or metallic 
And while playing, we enjoy beautiful graphics but we don't search for individual differences after first hour or two, especially since many effects can be obtained without RT and then the performance is not literally "slaughtered". (How owners of the RTX 2000-3000 even the RTX 3090Ti feel right now ? )

The card is undoubtedly more efficient than the previous serie, but it is hard to resist the impression that the lack of DLSS 3.0 for both RTX series is not accidental. In a way, the RTX 20xx series becomes useless because its overall performance with RT in 2K and 4K is very low today. According to various tests, the increase in performance is about 50-60%, when looking at the RTX 3080 and the previous series, this result meant no more than about a 50% increase in price from the previous series. Looking at the RTX 4080 performance, memory bus, bandwidth, number of cores, a price of 899$ would be acceptable. Everything above is absurd and the aftermath of cryptocurrencies, pandemics and shortages of supplies and price increases at a time when every consumer and company were buying everything that was left in the stores.
If someone is not forced, he will overpay about even 30% of the price-performance ratio GTX/RTX xx80 in the case of the new series. Especially since only RT and DLSS 3.0 give a lot of it. So far we see top cards, probably many would like to see efficient cards at friendly prices like GTX 960, hits like GTX 970 (even GTX 1070), which allowed to play comfortably with good performance at an affordable price.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

BIGMicro said:


> Looking at the RTX 4080 performance, memory bus, bandwidth, number of cores, a price of 899$ would be acceptable. Everything above is absurd and the aftermath of cryptocurrencies, pandemics and shortages of supplies and price increases at a time when every consumer and company were buying everything that was left in the stores.
> If someone is not forced, he will overpay about even 30% of the price-performance ratio GTX/RTX xx80 in the case of the new series. Especially since only RT and DLSS 3.0 give a lot of it. So far we see top cards, probably many would like to see efficient cards at friendly prices like GTX 960, hits like GTX 970 (even GTX 1070), which allowed to play comfortably with good performance at an affordable price.




Even that sounds a sure way for a 10.000 USD flagship cards in a couple of generations, although a bit slower than with 70% price increase every generation. 

;-)


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> It is not measured by the meter. In 4k, even 10 fps more can make you happy. You will not notice differences in 1080p or 1440p, where the counter exceeds 100 fps, but at higher resolutions it changes the page.
> Of course, everyone has their own options. It can play excrementably in 4K or invest in a video card that will give it at least a decent experience.
> 
> 
> ...


Its clear you don't understand all of what things really mean in GPU land, let me elaborate.

- They *can't offer* a 0.5 Kg flea because Nvidia's GPUs want to run <80C for correct boost properties. And Nvidia wants their cards to boost as they do, because economically, that makes a lot more sense than baking even bigger monolithic dies. You're turning reality around, saying they've blessed the 4090/4080 with a 3 slot, 2.1Kg monster. I say, its the only way they're going to deliver on their wanted performance gap to Ampere. They need high clocks and relatively large dies on the smallest available node to release a worthwhile chip. That story won't last, unless you desire a 4 slotter next time.

- Previous FE coolers had a different approach: they were blowers that throttled like nobody's business. But, Nvidia cannot do that anymore, as described and proven, they _need these cards to boost _to even be remotely competitive / worthwhile compared to last gen. This is further underlined by the fact they're reshuffling their Ampere stack below the 4080. There isn't any point in releasing more, and their margins will suffer if they push volume on 4nm.

- Price makes or breaks a product unless you have more money than sense. You can fill in for yourself what you have more of now; I hope you'll be wiser after this post. 1200 for this product is way beyond sensible, has no relation to economic developments, no relation to a sensible price increase compared to previous gen, and every relation to Nvidia pushing the highest margin in Geforce history. Margin you're happily paying, apparently, to chase 10 FPS in 4K that can be gained by changing a few game settings too.

- Everyone has their own options yes, but that's a different stance than considering what is good or bad about a product. I would hope you can separate those two things, I do.

- There is no different measurement for 4K. You're talking about the gap to reach 60 FPS steady so 'it is playable'... guess what. You can tweak settings on 4K to hit 60. Or 120. Nothing changes the page anywhere but your own emotional attachment to draggin a quality slider all the way to the right. Its emotion. Not rationale.

*Top end performance is, was and will never be special* in GPU land, because gen-to-gen performance increases need to land where it matters for games to really make use of it. By the time there is enough content to really enjoy that extra performance in a meaningful way (something more than moving from V High to Ultra settings), your top priced GPU is already yesterday's news. Software chases hardware, and devs look at market share for hardware performance levels to determine what's sensible to build. Heck, even state of the art RT is added to games post release, go figure. Nowhere is there a cutting-edge piece of content that is really challenging today's hardware. The days of Crysis are over and they ain't coming back, we've seen what happened to Crytek. Crysis is that perfect example proving all of the above: people most played that game years later, when they had GPUs that could run it proper. Name me one game that has that quality today.


----------



## N/A (Nov 16, 2022)

40 series is a bluff just like 20 series because thay can ride the wave even if it's gone. And then 30 and in this case 50 will save the day. 3070 msrp at 40% of 2080Ti. 5070 same performance as 4080 Ti at only a fraction of the price.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

I still believe Nvidia's gaming department is now run by crypto enthusiasts. Right now they are rolling in piles of cash from 2020 and 2021 crypto peak, and it should provide enough coke and hookers for them to wait for another crypto bull run. And lowering prices now would only hurt the revenue when the big buying starts, you have to have the right pricing position, I'm sure they have the calculations. Don't look at the falling revenue now, think of the extra profit! In the meantime they can always blame the picky whining gamers. And what if the next crypto wave doesn't come with such an enthusiasm for mining on home GPUs? Well, it worked so far...


----------



## pavle (Nov 16, 2022)

Introducing RTX 4080 Flounders edition priced at least at $1200, occupying 3 slots in your case for that 10% improvement over RTX 3090 Ti with lower thermals, but it's a smaller semiconductor node and with large on-chip cache, so not really impressive. Still waiting for the Hoseron RX 7900.


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

pavle said:


> Introducing RTX 4080 Flounders edition priced at least at $1200, occupying 3 slots in your case for that 10% improvement over RTX 3090 Ti with lower thermals, but it's a smaller semiconductor node and with large on-chip cache, so not really impressive. Still waiting for the Hoseron RX 7900.
> View attachment 270175


Flounders edition? Three slots? OMG Ngreedia marketing is lying again. Flounders are _flat_! That's literally the whole point of that fish. Man, you can't trust anything these days.


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 16, 2022)

Ooooooooooooffffff.

And two minutes later:


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 16, 2022)

Nvidia's UK site sold out in 20 seconds. I watched it.


----------



## Fasola (Nov 16, 2022)

Wizzard is giving out awards like he's trying to dump his coins/tokens before the next impending crypto crash.


----------



## mb194dc (Nov 16, 2022)

Same as 4090, initially stock is limited but will be widely available most likely by Jan at the latest...


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 16, 2022)

It's


Chomiq said:


> View attachment 270180
> Ooooooooooooffffff.
> 
> And two minutes later:
> View attachment 270181



It makes perfect sense, a card 50% faster than RTX 3080 should cost 100% more, right? 

Right?


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 16, 2022)

Richards said:


> @W1zzard  you got to add 3dmark speedway to the suite


Is it fun to play? Because I really only test games, you know, things that are relevant for gamers 



Fasola said:


> Wizzard is giving out awards like he's trying to dump his coins/tokens before the next impending crypto crash.


I do not own any crypto, have never owned any, it's not an interesting investing vehicle for me


----------



## Fasola (Nov 16, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> I do not own any crypto, have never owned any, it's not an interesting investing vehicle for me


It's only a parallel. Your crypto ownership (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the joke.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Nov 16, 2022)

They cut it down too much leaving space for the Ti product. Like they knew the RDNA3 performance like months before.

I don't like these sort of games... especially for the inflated price. Please let us not be naïve about and think that each camp doesn't know it does.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

gffermari said:


> Since the new gen doesn’t replace the cards below 1000, we are stagnating and that’s why the 3080 price hasn’t been affected 2 years after the release.


That's nvidia for you my friend. I recently grabbed a RX 6800 XT for $530  for my office pc.


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 16, 2022)

Fasola said:


> It's only a parallel. Your crypto ownership (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the joke.


You call that a joke?


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 16, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Is it fun to play? Because I really only test games, you know, things that are relevant for gamers
> 
> 
> I do not own any crypto, have never owned any, it's not an interesting investing vehicle for me


+250 street cred XP earned


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> RT is brute force in the end


That's what i've been saying since 3000 series, they do no "improve" the rt prowess, they just add moar!!


----------



## neatfeatguy (Nov 16, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> View attachment 270180
> Ooooooooooooffffff.
> 
> And two minutes later:
> View attachment 270181



I hope this didn't come as a surprise to anyone. I thought Nvidia said inventory for this model was going to be limited, less than the 4090......or am I remembering wrong?

Either way, I fully expected limited availability to help push scarcity to warrant the extremely high prices these cards are listed for and make people think the demand is off the charts.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Only 10 generations later a GeForce 100 series flagship would cost over 14.000 dollars in 2010. And of course a proper price for Ada flagship less than 20 generations after GeForce 256 would be half a million dollars. And only two generations later we'll be over one million, so better buy now!
> 
> Still sounds logical to have the same or even worse price increase as performance increase?


If people were smart enough to understand this, the 4090 would be $800 at most.


----------



## Xex360 (Nov 16, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Eh, I can understand why the 5800X bottleneck was largely unknown on the 4090 review.  Comparing that review to other reviews with faster CPUs yielded interesting numbers that showed how CPU was becoming far more important on higher end rigs, which was a good learning from that review for those that cross compared.
> 
> But this time?  There's supposed to be meaning to that word in the sentence above, 'learning'.
> 
> ...


I think this is a none issue as we have testing later with the best gaming CPUs


Vayra86 said:


> 2.1KG, 3 slot brick, shaky adapter, 1200+ lolcoins... and all it really is, is shrunk Ampere with flashy new pictures of the die and new DLSS.
> 
> Hard Pass. I don't understand this product.
> 
> ...


Annoyingly RT offers tiny improvements as it is meant for realism and isn't always adequate for games. Physics for example, you don't see games using the most accurate physics. 
Most of those pushing for RT completely miss the point of gaming.


----------



## Fasola (Nov 16, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> You call that a joke?


What would you call it?


----------



## pavle (Nov 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Flounders edition? Three slots? OMG Ngreedia marketing is lying again. Flounders are _flat_! That's literally the whole point of that fish. Man, you can't trust anything these days.


I chose the non-fishy meaning of that word, as in the bumbling fools at nvidia.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> And so? You can also become an investor. You start from zero and become a multimillionaire, if your head helps. Or you can ignore them and DON'T BUY!
> Another way is to help Putin establish his new world order, or to implement communism, under the motto: RTX 4090 for all the people.
> Do you think you will change something with the girls on the forum?
> 
> I'm serious, maybe a devastating war would wake us up to reality. Maybe that's how we'll understand that a processor, video card or laptop is not a vital organ or a medicine that saves our lives and the scoundrels sell it at an unreasonably high price. They're just gadgets. We can survive without them or we can replace them with something cheaper.


Anytime any product in whatever market increases absurdly in price, people will complain. What does it have to do with communism?


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

pavle said:


> I chose the non-fishy meaning of that word, as in the bumbling fools at nvidia.


OMG when NGREEEDIA is involved everything is always fishy. Fishy fishy fish fish.









Heck, I can see why people argue like this on forums, this is a lot more fun than actual meaningful discussions!


----------



## igralec84 (Nov 16, 2022)

There's lots of card around MSRP for 1500€, but if you're not German, they won't sell it because they need to support local scalpers

Alternate.de 



> Dear customer,
> 
> 
> thank you for your request.
> ...


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

igralec84 said:


> There's lots of card around MSRP for 1500€, but if you're not German, they won't sell it because they need to support local scalpers
> 
> Alternate.de


Hey, it's important to support your local businesses scalpers! We don't want global mega-corpsscalpers taking over the GPU retail scalping market, do we?


----------



## igralec84 (Nov 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Hey, it's important to support your local businesses scalpers! We don't want global mega-corpsscalpers taking over the GPU retail scalping market, do we?



On computeruniverse.net i tried to check out one for 1505€, but "something went wrong". Tried two more but now i have 3 different ones in the basket and "something goes wrong" if i click on it, so can't even empty it. So this is how it's going to be for the 7900XTX then. They will be in stock for MSRP but available to buy from scalers on ebay


----------



## Valantar (Nov 16, 2022)

igralec84 said:


> On computeruniverse.net i tried to check out one for 1505€, but "something went wrong". Tried two more but now i have 3 different ones in the basket and "something goes wrong" if i click on it, so can't even empty it. So this is how it's going to be for the 7900XTX then. They will be in stock for MSRP but available to buy from scalers on ebay


Yeah, with the advent of bot-based scalping I don't think there's a single ecommerce platform on earth that's able to not just fail outright at any high profile launch these days. Even if scalping can't possibly be as profitable today as it was a year ago, it's clear that they'll keep at it for as long as it's viable.


----------



## Count Shagula (Nov 16, 2022)

https://www.pccasegear.com/products/60019/gigabyte-geforce-rtx-4080-eagle-16gb
Cheapeast AU card I found so far... I paid $1100 for a 3080...


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> It's simple for me: I don't buy! And I'm not even complaining. They can sell them a GT 4010 for $10,000 or $1,000,000, that's their job, because then there will be more people who won't buy, they'll be left with unsold goods and go bankrupt. In reality, everything is calculated. They have some well-trained people who inspect the market and it seems that they do a good job if a 4090, with an MSRP of $1499, you can barely find it for $2000.



Yes Sensei Gica, "JUST DON'T BUY". Since the the 40-SERIES got announced with those rediculous prices and people "naturally" displayed their disappointment.... you've been banging on about "stop whining or shedding tears" and "just don't buy" and the circus show falsity "its the market which determines the MSRP". Moreover you've clearly displayed your acceptance to an intolerable trading practice which was always going to [inevitably] give voice to disapproval. Yes disapproval or keyboard ninja resentment which is the natural course of action for the many disgruntled buyers who feel banished with a no entry sign slapped on their foreheads. Everyones entitled to their opinion but the astonishing thing being, you have a problem with people's disapproval and go as far as rediculing them for voicing their opinions/hardships in acquiring such products. The scorning doesn't end there, you push the following argument:



Gica said:


> I'm serious, maybe a devastating war would wake us up to reality. Maybe that's how we'll understand that a processor, video card or laptop is not a vital organ or a medicine that saves our lives and the scoundrels sell it at an unreasonably high price. They're just gadgets. We can survive without them or we can replace them with something cheaper.



lol. Seriously? Now you're just feeding false inferences filled with extraneous wind-ups. No one is suggesting we can't survive without price-inflated graphics cards... no one is suggesting we are obligated to buy into this sort of day light robbery. You know perfectly well most of the resentment is coming from people who already fit your "just don't buy" bill of rights and yet you're reflecting on devastating wars for a wake up call. You're practically inciting this weird notion: if anyone has a problem with NVIDIAs fattened up MSRPs they exist in a realm outside of reality so let the bombs and bullets fly to bring them back home (if they survive).... too much deliberately obscured drama for my liking!



Gica said:


> Our chance at a low price remains only the competition between rivals, not the rivers of tears shed on the forums.



Its these very "rivers of tears" shedders (or politely put unhappy buyers) who ultimately carry a meaningful stake in determining how the competitive rivalry pans out. So lets not separate the two. In-fact, its not long ago i became more active on these forums.... these rivers of tears were rather contagious if you ask me - definitely added a more informed perspective going forward rather than recklessly throwing charity at the uncharitable.



Gica said:


> Another way is to help Putin establish his new world order, or to implement communism, under the motto: RTX 4090 for all the people.



To my short-sailing knowledge, thats the third time you've mentioned Putin since 40-series launched.... if you're really that worried, you might as well extinguish that fear and build yourself a bomb shelter and go under. You could do with a break from all this "devastating war" weird deliberation or overkill contemplation but just remember it doesn't matter how deep you end up in the earths core.... our rivers of tears turned into oceanic floods will find you.


----------



## Gica (Nov 16, 2022)

I have an allergy to the price of energy, to the complicity of governments with speculators, and I feel boundless anger. Why? Simple, it hits me directly, through bills, and indirectly, through inflation. You have nowhere to hide.
The component prices leave me cold as a glacier. Why? Because they are gadgets for home users. I can survive without them. You not? Is the planet collapsing on you if you don't play with the latest generation of video cards?
I don't know if you've noticed, but new product launches always bring big price cuts to previously launched products.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 16, 2022)

Gica said:


> I don't know if you've noticed, new product launches always bring big price cuts to previously launched products


Really?, where is the rtx 3080 BIG price cut?, last time i checked is +$135 than msrp.


----------



## N/A (Nov 17, 2022)

N3M3515 said:


> Really?, where is the rtx 3080 BIG price cut?, last time i checked is +$135 than msrp.


The 3080 alternatives like 4060 Ti 070 tier with 10 GB specifically haven't come out yet, so no price cuts until it gets very very near to launch and then at this point why bother with the old power hungry part. Notice how only 3080 Ti 90 Ti did get the price slashed quite substantially to 999. So the best time to check again is in two months, and then again.


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 17, 2022)

Gica said:


> I have an allergy to the price of energy, to the complicity of governments with speculators, and I feel boundless anger. Why? Simple, it hits me directly, through bills, and indirectly, through inflation. You have nowhere to hide.
> The component prices leave me cold as a glacier. Why? Because they are gadgets for home users. I can survive without them. You not? Is the planet collapsing on you if you don't play with the latest generation of video cards?
> I don't know if you've noticed, but new product launches always bring big price cuts to previously launched products.



Yes the "_planet is collapsing on me"_ with your child like logic, unfounded repetitiveness and completely irrelevant drivel.

You make it out as if all price cognisant buyers are all insane, reckless to the core and lost at sea. Our refusal not to buy into extortionate parts is testament in itself that no one here is treating the matter at hand as a survival tool. So what on earth are you on about? 

Please fill us in... how does your _"allergy to the price of energy".... "boundless anger"... "bills"..."component prices leave me cold as a glacier" _justify your constant mock of others who simply voice their opinions against rising MSRPs in the GPU segment? Ok so my mortgage interest has doubled-over, my energy bills probably 60-80% swollen, weekly groceries/etc easily 10-20% more but wait let me get on TPU and endorse nVs day-light-robbery pricing strategy and blame the market as the price setter..... and should anyone contest i'll just mock them and convince them they've gone suvival-mode NUTS. If that doesn't work i'll throw in the much desired "return to reality" card which is only possible with a devastating war. ---- Yeah, great logic Gica. I would have said you've lost the plot... seeing you're backing nV to the bone, perhaps the plot is very much in motion.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 17, 2022)

N/A said:


> Notice how only 3080 Ti 90 Ti did get the price slashed quite substantially to 999


Both of them where severely overpriced to begin with......


----------



## Wasteland (Nov 17, 2022)

N/A said:


> The 3080 alternatives like 4060 Ti 070 tier with 10 GB specifically haven't come out yet, so no price cuts until it gets very very near to launch and then at this point why bother with the old power hungry part. Notice how only 3080 Ti 90 Ti did get the price slashed quite substantially to 999. So the best time to check again is in two months, and then again.


That's more or less the entire point of contention.  Nvidia has given zero indication that they plan to offer lower-to-mid-range Ada products any time soon (or even affordable high-end products, like, say, 80 class cards that were priced at $700 as recently as last gen).  As things stand now, it looks like those products may _never_ materialize.  Instead, we're to buy the Ampere stock left over after Nvidia's cryptocurrency orgy, with Ada releases carefully priced so high that the bulk of old cards can maintain their pre-Ada pricing scheme.

Personally I don't think that AAA games these days are attractive enough that anyone should fixate on buying the newest cutting edge GPU technology; older cards are fine, as long as you can get a decent price.  But from a hardware enthusiast standpoint, Ada's launch is disappointing, and Nvidia's behavior looks pretty scummy.  AMD isn't entirely blemishless here, either.


----------



## mkppo (Nov 17, 2022)

Terrible fucking price. $1200 for this POS which gets an editors choice is baffling. How much did nvidia have to price it at for it to NOT get a editors choice? $1500?

At least some reviewers called them out and rightfully so. At MOST, this should have been $1000. At that point it would be put to shame in raster vs 7900 XTX but win in RT. $1200 is absolutely ridiculous. 

At this point I feel like selling all of the 3090's I have and going team red as nvidia's ridiculous pricing have really gotten to me. Started with the 3090Ti and continues with the 4080. Won't even go to the 12VHPWR connector they partly designed and their lack of response to it. I'd hate to part with the 3090 FE block though, shame they didn't make one for this round. Come on EK, make one for 7900 XTX.


----------



## NesteaZen (Nov 17, 2022)

thanks for average numbers in raw format. aka no percentages. i so hate percentages. even if they're dynamic with JS, you can't really work with em. @W1zzard


----------



## ModEl4 (Nov 17, 2022)

Ampere:
4K Performance: 3090=100% 3080=87%
Launch MSRP: 3090=100% 3080=46.66%

Ada:
4K Performance: 4090=100% 4080=80% (probably around 72% in 2.5 years with a Zen5X3D and newer game testbed)
MSRP: 4090=100% 4080=75%

Just don't buy it, give a chance to AMD instead (if 7900XTX $999 MSRP realised)
Still RTX 4080 will be faster than 7900XTX if tested with newer more demanding games with RT on, but for the foreseeable future it doesn't matter much (although when new consoles launch and we are starting to see games targeting next-next gen only, probably by then TPU's main bench will be done with RT on by default but that's at least 5+ years in to the future)


----------



## Gica (Nov 17, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> Yes the "_planet is collapsing on me"_ with your child like logic, unfounded repetitiveness and completely irrelevant drivel.
> 
> You make it out as if all price cognisant buyers are all insane, reckless to the core and lost at sea. Our refusal not to buy into extortionate parts is testament in itself that no one here is treating the matter at hand as a survival tool. So what on earth are you on about?
> 
> Please fill us in... how does your _"allergy to the price of energy".... "boundless anger"... "bills"..."component prices leave me cold as a glacier" _justify your constant mock of others who simply voice their opinions against rising MSRPs in the GPU segment? Ok so my mortgage interest has doubled-over, my energy bills probably 60-80% swollen, weekly groceries/etc easily 10-20% more but wait let me get on TPU and endorse nVs day-light-robbery pricing strategy and blame the market as the price setter..... and should anyone contest i'll just mock them and convince them they've gone suvival-mode NUTS. If that doesn't work i'll throw in the much desired "return to reality" card which is only possible with a devastating war. ---- Yeah, great logic Gica. I would have said you've lost the plot... seeing you're backing nV to the bone, perhaps the plot is very much in motion.


So, in your opinion, those who buy at prices above MSRP (because MSRP is a dream, for now) are idiots. Directly or indirectly, that's what you say. I would add that they are intelligent enough to afford this price, if they necessarily want the best of the best.
Stupid and intelligent at the same time.       
To end the controversy, did you scare nVidia? Did the prices drop after your protest? Or does it remain as I said that only the competition can do it (unless they clap their hands and divide their territories)?
11600KF + 3070Ti = ~20% time spent gaming.
12500 + UHD 770 = ~80% time spent gaming.
Why? Because the igp does well in frequently used games and where small details are recommended.
I approximate 30-40% of the total time spent at computers for gaming. The rest: www (yt, forums and news), office, some video and photo editing, plus others where this system does great and consumes ~1KW/month for each hour/day of use.
Why did I invest in 3070Ti, 800 euros, almost $1000 in the summer of 2021? Caprice! I am 110% sure that I would have survived without this video card (I still have a system with 1650 and another 1050Ti in the drawer, for backup).
If you keep talking about thinking like a child, I remind you that in all your replies you have demonstrated that you have primitive thinking: whoever is not with you, they are automatically against you. And you don't even understand how the market works, kids. It's simple for me: I don't buy if I don't like something about the product. I'm not complaining.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

Gica said:


> I have an allergy to the price of energy, to the complicity of governments with speculators, and I feel boundless anger. Why? Simple, it hits me directly, through bills, and indirectly, through inflation. You have nowhere to hide.
> The component prices leave me cold as a glacier. Why? Because they are gadgets for home users. I can survive without them. You not? Is the planet collapsing on you if you don't play with the latest generation of video cards?
> I don't know if you've noticed, but new product launches always bring big price cuts to previously launched products.


Its fine you work that way, but what you see in speculation on markets that dó inspire boundless anger, is the same thing that happens elsewhere, for example in GPU.

You may not like it, but you and I and everyone else here is part of the same problem. Sure, you can keep running ahead of the problem (denial) and keep envisioning for yourself you're still winning, but the reality is, that we're all going to lose. The longer we live in denial of a problem - ANY problem - the higher the bill is going to be when you do face it. That's not an opinion, its a fact of life.

The ideas you have and those who oppose them are not different. They're the same principle. Its about fair and just economies, about markets working as they should and about getting your money's worth. Its clear as day the market for chips but especially consumer GPU has been a total mess... Acknowledgment or denial... up to you. But it is what it is, and cognitive dissonance won't change reality, it just blinds you to it.

You're right we have no 'need' or 'right' for new GPUs. I've been saying the same thing. But that has zero relation to a perspective on the market as it is. Again: separate one from the other, and you can have a more meaningful discussion on what's what.



mkppo said:


> Terrible fucking price. $1200 for this POS which gets an editors choice is baffling. How much did nvidia have to price it at for it to NOT get a editors choice? $1500?
> 
> At least some reviewers called them out and rightfully so. At MOST, this should have been $1000. At that point it would be put to shame in raster vs 7900 XTX but win in RT. $1200 is absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> At this point I feel like selling all of the 3090's I have and going team red as nvidia's ridiculous pricing have really gotten to me. Started with the 3090Ti and continues with the 4080. Won't even go to the 12VHPWR connector they partly designed and their lack of response to it. I'd hate to part with the 3090 FE block though, shame they didn't make one for this round. Come on EK, make one for 7900 XTX.


Just ignore the stickers under reviews  They're for those with short attention spans and PR.

Remember, in class when you were young you'd also get stickers for everything, doesn't mean a lot


----------



## Gica (Nov 17, 2022)

I would like to remind you of something. 31.12.2020 was the day when tax exemptions for China expired. Starting from the second day, for every $1000, ~$200 was added to the price of video cards. Those taxes still apply now. If we add the skyrocket prices of energy, wafers and materials, probably the 4080 would have had an msrp of ~$800 if the economic situation had been like the one before the US-China economic war.
As you can see, almost all the big companies are on the decline this year. Of course, we exclude those that sell energy, because they have record revenues.



Vayra86 said:


> Its fine you work that way, but what you see in speculation on markets that dó inspire boundless anger, is the same thing that happens elsewhere, for example in GPU.


Correct, but the GPU falls into the "gadget" category for home users. You have a very wide selection base in this segment - if you don't want or can't afford high end, you can manage with something mainstream or even entry. You don't die from that
In essentials, we have completely different products, from food to medicines and ending with bills. High prices are causing havoc here, they are not fads. Only children and snobs make a drama if they button a low entry Motorola instead of an iPhone.


----------



## Chomiq (Nov 17, 2022)

Gica said:


> I would like to remind you of something. 31.12.2020 was the day when tax exemptions for China expired. Starting from the second day, for every $1000, ~$200 was added to the price of video cards.


Bullshit:








						U.S. Lifts Chinese Import Tariffs Hitting GPUs, Motherboards
					

Hopefully some hardware prices decrease.




					www.tomshardware.com
				






> The development means PCBs coming from China are now free from the 7.5%-25% additional import duties levied at them, which went into effect in January 2021 when the provisions excluding these products expired. This could, in theory, translate into lower prices for some of the best motherboards and graphics cards. Of course, that's the best case scenario that assumes companies will be passing these savings on to consumers.


That's from March 24th this year.

Even when the import duties were in place 30-series only saw MSRP increase in EU by 5-6.5% for FE cards. No increase in US. That was purely due to USD/EUR conversion rate changes.


----------



## Richards (Nov 17, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Is it fun to play? Because I really only test games, you know, things that are relevant for gamers
> 
> 
> I do not own any crypto, have never owned any, it's not an interesting investing vehicle for me


Its a compute  benchmark.. gpu's are multi purpose  not gaming  only.. we need more compute  worklords


----------



## spnidel (Nov 17, 2022)

based on these reviews, looks like the 7900 xt will be faster than the 4080, and the xtx within striking distance of the 4090... at less power in both cases
yet another case of "there's no way the 6800 xt will be faster than the 2080 ti"


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

spnidel said:


> based on these reviews, looks like the 7900 xt will be faster than the 4080, and the xtx within striking distance of the 4090... at less power in both cases
> yet another case of "there's no way the 6800 xt will be faster than the 2080 ti"


Yep. AMD have the chance to play the "robin hood" this round all while charging 1000$ and more on a GPU. Some people will buy it while feeling that they made some sort of retaliation vs. NV high price.
It is nothing short of amazing.


----------



## spnidel (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Yep. AMD have the chance to play the "robin hood" this round all while charging 1000$ and more on a GPU. Some people will buy it while feeling that they made some sort of retaliation vs. NV high price.
> It is nothing short of amazing.


if them playing robin hood means I get better value, then I'm all for it


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

spnidel said:


> if them playing robin hood means I get better value, then I'm all for it


I know, and that what's amazing: There is no robin and no hood. And most certenlly it is not an AMD play because a 1000$ GPU is just bad as a 2000$ GPU if your looking for a hero to save you from overpriced tech.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 17, 2022)

There's plenty of robbin', though. ;-)


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Can somebody explain how this piece of cash grab could ever receive an Editor's Choice award?


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Can somebody explain how this piece of cash grab could ever receive an Editor's Choice award?
> 
> View attachment 270330




Simple. 

By acting as though as scalper prices during cryptolunacy were something normal, and now considering the price compated to that event. 

"Averaged over all the 25 games in our GPU test suite at 4K resolution we find the RTX 4080 16*% faster than the GeForce RTX 3090 Ti—last generation's $2000 flagship card*—very impressive."

And by stating that RTX 3080 "sub $700" is an anomaly, although that card has been launched at $699 more than two years ago. 

The whole "conclusion" was probably written around Nvidia's guideline on what to say about the card, or there will be no next free items. 

At least that's my conclusion. I can't find any other reason on why would a reviewer endorse a card that regresses compared to previous generation. 

Remember, compared to RTX 3080 +50% performance in 4K, +70% price (or more, depending on scalping and unavailability of base models). That's the whole conclusion this product needs.


----------



## QuietBob (Nov 17, 2022)

As a 60fps gamer, I'm really impressed with the V-synced result of this card. 304w with V-sync off also sounds good, given its performance. What I don't like is high idle power consumption. My GPU spends 99% of its time idling, and the rig may be on for 15+ hours/day for most of the week.

And then there's the price. I'm not paying this kind of money, even if the 4080 is efficient in games. But I'll gladly purchase a 7900XTX for less if it shows similar performance and efficiency.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I know, and that what's amazing: There is no robin and no hood. And most certenlly it is not an AMD play because a 1000$ GPU is just bad as a 2000$ GPU if your looking for a hero to save you from overpriced tech.


That's why the value is at $700 and below


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 17, 2022)

Remember, being OK with 70% price increase will inevitably lead to this:


2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
2024, RTX 5080 - $2040
2026, RTX 6080 - $3468
2028, RTX 7080 - $5896
2030, RTX 8080 - $10022
2032, RTX 9080 - $17038
2034, GTX 1080 - $28965

But it's OK, because it is fast!


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Remember, being OK with 70% price increase will inevitably lead to this:
> 
> 
> 2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
> ...


Who cares if it's fast? It's from the greens!


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 17, 2022)

I don't believe anyone really hopes AMD will seriously undercut Nvidia? They simply can't. Their productuon capacity is very limited, so there is no sense for them to be a "clear choice" - or their whole production will be bought by scalpers and sold for a profit. Best they can do is a bit better price / performance (in rasterisation), compared to Ada, to maximize the profit and make shareholders happy.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> I don't believe anyone really hopes AMD will seriously undercut Nvidia? They simply can't. Their productuon capacity is very limited, so there is no sense for them to be a "clear choice" - or their whole production will be bought by scalpers and sold for a profit. Best they can do is a bit better price / performance (in rasterisation), compared to Ada, to maximize the profit and make shareholders happy.


I think they will ride on NV`s wave as much as they can to make as much money as they can.
Maybe they will do a big, well calculated, $ reduction in order to exploit the market uprising against NV price structure, but that wont last long.
When the "protest" move against NV is to buy a 1000$ GPU from the competitor, the only loser is the consumer thinking he made any difference for the economy state we are in.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I think they will ride on NV`s wave as much as they can to make as much money as they can.
> Maybe they will do a big, well calculated, $ reduction in order to exploit the market uprising against NV price structure, but that wontlast long.


I think they'll always have to undercut Nvidia by a little bit (not by much) because they don't enjoy the same mindshare. People still consider and expect them to be the budget option. If you read through the RDNA 3 launch thread here on TPU and see all the cries that a $1,000 AMD GPU isn't faster than a $1,600 Nvidia one, you'll see what I mean.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I think they'll always have to undercut Nvidia by a little bit (not by much) because they don't enjoy the same mindshare. People still consider and expect them to be the budget option. If you read through the RDNA 3 launch thread here on TPU and see all the cries that a $1,000 AMD GPU isn't faster than a $1,600 Nvidia one, you'll see what I mean.


They are free to consider whatever they want, but to expect something from them is foolish and will end in even bigger rage than what is now aimd on NV. AMD, like NV and Intel ,employ many 'smart' PhD people with deep psychological & microeconomics knowledge whose job is to get the highest possible $ number that the crowd will be able to swallow for a given produce at a given time frame relative to the market and competition situation (Price theory, Indifference curve). Expect nothing other than the same "NV greedy practice" from AMD if the things were upside down so AMD having NV`s magnitude of mindshare.


----------



## Fasola (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> They are free to consider whatever they want, but to expect something from them is foolish and will end in even bigger rage than what is now aimd on NV. AMD, like NV and Intel ,employ many 'smart' PhD people with deep psychological & microeconomics knowledge whose job is to get the highest possible $ number that the crowd will be able to swallow for a given produce at a given time frame relative to the market and competition situation (Price theory, Indifference curve). Expect nothing other than the same "NV greedy practice" from AMD if the things were upside down so AMD having NV`s magnitude of mindshare.


If one wants a high-end gaming GPU without being a RT evangelist, AMD will probably (pending reviews) be the way to go. If NV starts offering more value than AMD, I'm sure the consensus will change. No amout of "but AMD is also screwing you with their prices" will improve the value of NV's offerings at this point in time.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> They are free to consider whatever they want, but to expect something from them is foolish and will end in even bigger rage than what is now aimd on NV. AMD, like NV and Intel ,employ many 'smart' PhD people with deep psychological & microeconomics knowledge whose job is to get the highest possible $ number that the crowd will be able to swallow for a given produce at a given time frame relative to the market and competition situation (Price theory, Indifference curve). Expect nothing other than the same "NV greedy practice" from AMD if the things were upside down so AMD having NV`s magnitude of mindshare.


You're not wrong - I just base my comments on behavior I see here on TPU:
Nvidia releases a $1,600 card with one of the worst price-to-performance ratios we've ever seen - it's fine because it's fast.
AMD releases a $1,000 card that isn't faster than Nvidia's $1,600 flagship - what an outrage!


----------



## Gameslove (Nov 17, 2022)

_16-pin power cable adapter included

Might be not a advance, such miss understanding how exactly work a 12VHPWR power cable. No problems? _


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 17, 2022)

Gica said:


> So, in your opinion, those who buy at prices above MSRP (because MSRP is a dream, for now) are idiots. Directly or indirectly, that's what you say. I would add that they are intelligent enough to afford this price, if they necessarily want the best of the best.



I have never suggested buyers are idiots for succumbing to these prices - as usual irrelevant mouth fed inferences to thwart the topic at hand. I've seen this type of devious obscurities being a constant Gica trademark, usually deployed when irrefutable common sense emerges. 



Gica said:


> To end the controversy, did you scare nVidia? Did the prices drop after your protest? Or does it remain as I said that only the competition can do it (unless they clap their hands and divide their territories)?



_"End of controversy"_? This sounds more like the start of controversy if you're pitching silly irrelevant questions. We could carry this level of irrelavancy over..... _"did you scare the buyers or observer from voicing his/her opinions"..... "did the disgruntled consumer disappointment cease after your protest?"..... "Or does it remain as I said that the prices remain high and continue to treacherously rise (unless you clap your hands and wiggle your fingers and shake it all about)"_

Doesn't help does it?



Gica said:


> 11600KF + 3070Ti = ~20% time spent gaming.
> 12500 + UHD 770 = ~80% time spent gaming.
> Why? Because the igp does well in frequently used games and where small details are recommended.
> I approximate 30-40% of the total time spent at computers for gaming. The rest: www (yt, forums and news), office, some video and photo editing, plus others where this system does great and consumes ~1KW/month for each hour/day of use.
> Why did I invest in 3070Ti, 800 euros, almost $1000 in the summer of 2021? Caprice! I am 110% sure that I would have survived without this video card (I still have a system with 1650 and another 1050Ti in the drawer, for backup).



Relevancy? I have no idea where you are going with this? How is this a justified means to stop people from voicing their disappointment with current prices? Stick to the same page please and stop skipping to page 324 where skippy skipped one too many skips and lost his way home. 



Gica said:


> If you keep talking about thinking like a child, I remind you that in all your replies you have demonstrated that you have primitive thinking: whoever is not with you, they are automatically against you. And you don't even understand how the market works, kids. It's simple for me: I don't buy if I don't like something about the product. I'm not complaining.



An interesting conclusion. And all along i was questioning your primitive style of thinking where displeased buyers are not permitted to voice their opinions and the very source of market manipulation gets a liberating Gica certified green card .... its rather comical you're turning the tables on me. I don't think it's a good idea to suggest _"you don't even understand how the market works" _coming from someone who resolutely believes the market itself determines MSRP like it's some sort of an AI autonomous out-of-hand non-corporate process. It doesn't end there the more recent assertions are equally startling with the diverging introduction of buyer disapproval/disregard having no play in determining price and competition being the only means to fluctuating prices. Come on Gica, sharpen up! You can't disconnect the two, they work cooperatively together. This is somewhat rediculous to even mention. You clearly don't understand these simple market principles but you continue to discharge rediculous cherry-picked blanks, at any cost.

_*"im not complaining" *_- really? Well that depends on how you look at it. The very pretext of this exchange is built around your relentless "complaints" against buyers/members who are not in favour of these rediculous prices. Forget prices, you have taken "rediculous" to whole a new level by impassively rediculing people for the sentiments shared. If that's not complaining, what is?


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 18, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> The whole "conclusion" was probably written around Nvidia's guideline on what to say about the card, or there will be no next free items.


That is simply not true, I have never seen any such NVIDIA guideline, nor has NVIDIA ever put any "or else" pressure on me.

The award is given, because it's the 2nd fastest card that exists, with the world's best power efficiency, with amazing performance in both raster and RT, and great features, at a terrible price. and like I said .. DO NOT BUY IT IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. It is still an unbelievably amazing card

If I give you a $1200 coupon for a GPU that expires next week, what would you buy today? Wait for the Radeons? Sure, definitely, you really should, and I'm surprised that so many people already know how well the product works... but I'm afraid that in the end most people will still buy NVIDIA (like in the last decade) or hope that AMD's success will force NVIDIA to lower their prices, which can definitely happen


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> That is simply not true, I have never seen any such NVIDIA guideline, nor has NVIDIA ever put any "or else" pressure on me.
> 
> The award is given, because it's the 2nd fastest card that exists, with the world's best power efficiency, with amazing performance in both raster and RT, and great features, at a terrible price. and like I said .. DO NOT BUY IT IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. It is still an unbelievably amazing card
> 
> If I give you a $1200 coupon for a GPU that expires next week, what would you buy today? Wait for the Radeons? Sure, definitely, you really should, and I'm surprised that so many people already know how well the product works... but I'm afraid that in the end most people will still buy NVIDIA (like in the last decade) or hope that AMD's success will force NVIDIA to lower their prices, which can definitely happen


To add a badge of "terrible value" for the price along side with the "highly recommend" for preformance and efficiency will sort things up.
No contradiction between the two whatsoever.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 18, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> To add a badge of "terrible value" along side with the "highly recommend" will sort things up.
> No contradiction between the two whatsoever.


That is an interesting idea

Edit: Now looking at this chart and wondering "what's good value? where's the cutoff? isn't its "value" (price/perf, and that doesnt take into account efficiency and other things like features) actually comparable to the competing options (3090 ti, 3090, 3080 ti), just "price" is very high" ?



http://imgur.com/wx2XhQd


----------



## HTC (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> what's good value? where's the cutoff?



Perhaps a direct comparison to the card of the previous generation and it's price?

The 3080 launched with a $699 price IIRC while the 4080 launched with a $1199 price: the rise in price for the card's segment (an 080 card) is too steep IMO, hence deserving the "terrible value" award, as suggested by @Dirt Chip


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 18, 2022)

HTC said:


> Perhaps a direct comparison to the card of the previous generation and it's price?


that's literally what this chart does



HTC said:


> The 3080 launched with a $699 price IIRC


It was a fake price, and everybody knew that, the card really wasn't available at this price point. NVIDIA just though it would make people happy if they gave them a bs pricing. Soon after that I changed my reviews to use actual pricing that has availability, even if that means buying from eBay/scalpers


----------



## HTC (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> It was a fake price, and everybody knew that, the card really wasn't available at this price point.



But it was the MSRP: the fact that crypto caused interference with that price is irrelevant.

Had crypto not died down recently, do you honestly believe one could get the 4080, or ANY card for that matter, @ MSRP as well?


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 18, 2022)

HTC said:


> But it was the MSRP: the fact that crypto caused interference with that price is irrelevant.


Uh .. all the people who wanted to buy a card would disagree with you. 

Reviewers started using real price points for their reviews, so that NVIDIA had to stop releasing fake MSRPs.



HTC said:


> do you honestly believe one could get the 4080, or ANY card for that matter, @ MSRP as well?


Just checked.. here in Germany not a single card available at MSRP

edit: nothing nothing available on Newegg https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709 601408875&Order=1
edit: $1610 at amz https://www.amazon.com/s?k=rtx+4080&crid=1IYQEV8GKNNTD&sprefix=rtx+4080,aps,295&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
edit: best buy no cards
edit: ebay https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=rtx+4080&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_sop=15

around $1650.. so if I write a review today about RTX 4080, the price will be $1610

That's how my pricing process works now, for all cards I have in my comparisons .. MSRPs are meaningless, let's not give GPU vendors the chance to start faking MSRPs again


----------



## HTC (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Reviewers started using real price points for their reviews, so that NVIDIA had to stop releasing fake MSRPs.



I understand.

Still, you could use the MSRP solely for the "terrible value" badge, when applicable.


----------



## trog100 (Nov 18, 2022)

people seem to have conveniently forgotten the 2080ti which launched at £1200 quid...

i agree with wizard the 3080 price was entirely fake.. nvidia knew the card would never sell at that price..

its possible to put any price you like on anything.. but if that thing aint available at that price.. the price is fake..

as for the 4080 card.. there is no sign of it selling out in the UK.. its still readily available from the main retailers.

trog


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> That is simply not true, I have never seen any such NVIDIA guideline, nor has NVIDIA ever put any "or else" pressure on me.
> 
> The award is given, because it's the 2nd fastest card that exists, with the world's best power efficiency, with amazing performance in both raster and RT, and great features, at a terrible price. and like I said .. DO NOT BUY IT IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. It is still an unbelievably amazing card
> 
> If I give you a $1200 coupon for a GPU that expires next week, what would you buy today? Wait for the Radeons? Sure, definitely, you really should, and I'm surprised that so many people already know how well the product works... but I'm afraid that in the end most people will still buy NVIDIA (like in the last decade) or hope that AMD's success will force NVIDIA to lower their prices, which can definitely happen


I see your reasoning, but I kindly disagree with it.

It's a fast card, and it's more efficient than its predecessors, but the whole equation gets thrown out of the window when a card that's about 80% as fast as this one and doesn't need a fragile new power connector can be bought for half the price. The cheapest 3080 in the UK goes for £739.98, while the 4080 starts at £1,354.99 at the same store. That 20% difference in performance is on the border of what you can and cannot feel without an FPS counter on screen, and is not worth anywhere near the extra £6-700.

An award misleads people into believing that it's a great product at a great price, when in fact, it's an okay product at a terrible price. No one should be recommended to buy it.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> That is an interesting idea
> 
> Edit: Now looking at this chart and wondering "what's good value? where's the cutoff? isn't its "value" (price/perf, and that doesnt take into account efficiency and other things like features) actually comparable to the competing options (3090 ti, 3090, 3080 ti), just "price" is very high" ?
> 
> ...


It touches a the very elusive question of "what is value". And the answer is mostly subjective.
Many seems to determine value not by the cost\pref at present relative to the other options at present, but by what you could get computer to previous gens.
I don't think it's the right way to go, because the assumption based on the past may no longer be valid.
Many look at the die size, if it was cut down, memory bit and other spec that say nothing about imo about value. Pref\cost is the right term I think is right.
The problem is that today you have 1:1 ratio going gen to gen and not within the same gen in different tiers. That is pretty new, in a bad sense, and what makes the 4080 to be such a bad value to many. You don`s see the generational improvement you use to see (more fps for the same $$$), something most took for granted. Nobody care that today woofer cost is going in price close to exponential order where in the past it was mostly linear.
How do you factor that into conclusion with badges- I'm actually not sure.
Maybe sub devid the "highly recomended" to 3 categories of pref\cost (lats call it 'current value'), efficiency (pref\watt) and relative value (that is this product 'current value' vs last gen 'current value'). But that will turn into an academic artical very fast and will scare most.
Maybe just add an asterisk that say that it is only recommended IF you will surely fully use the new features (DLSS3 in this case) of the product and if not- it cannot be recommended.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> It touches a the very elusive question of "what is value". And the answer is mostly subjective.
> Many seems to determine value not by the cost\pref at present relative to the other options at present, but by what you could get computer to previous gens.
> I don't think it's the right way to go, because the assumption based on the past may no longer be valid.
> Many look at the die size, if it was cut down, memory bit and other spec that say nothing about imo about value. Pref\cost is the right term I think is right.
> ...


I think it's simpler than that. If a product sits right at the bottom of the price/performance chart, it doesn't deserve a recommendation, unless it offers something truly remarkable that other products don't. And the 4080 doesn't. It's just a graphics card like all the rest.


----------



## 64K (Nov 18, 2022)

trog100 said:


> people seem to have conveniently forgotten the 2080ti which launched at £1200 quid...
> 
> i agree with wizard the 3080 price was entirely fake.. nvidia knew the card would never sell at that price..
> 
> ...



The 2080 Ti was a high end Turing. The 4080 isn't a high end Ada so you can't compare the MSRPs in any relevant way.

A more accurate comparison would be the 2080 which had an MSRP of $700 versus the 4080 with a $1,200 MSRP.


----------



## trog100 (Nov 18, 2022)

64K said:


> The 2080 Ti was a high end Turing. The 4080 isn't a high end Ada so you can't compare the MSRPs in any relevant way.
> 
> A more accurate comparison would be the 2080 which had an MSRP of $700 versus the 4080 with a $1,200 MSRP.



performance wise a 2080ti compared roughly to a 3070 card.. which is why i said at the time the 3xxx series card prices were fake.. 

trog


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I see your reasoning, but I kindly disagree with it.
> 
> It's a fast card, and it's more efficient than its predecessors, but the whole equation gets thrown out of the window when a card that's about 80% as fast as this one and doesn't need a fragile new power connector can be bought for half the price. The cheapest 3080 in the UK goes for £739.98, while the 4080 starts at £1,354.99 at the same store. That 20% difference in performance is on the border of what you can and cannot feel without an FPS counter on screen, and is not worth anywhere near the extra £6-700.
> 
> An award misleads people into believing that it's a great product at a great price, when in fact, it's an okay product at a terrible price. No one should be recommended to buy it.


I partially agree- the answer is not clear cut in this case. Mostly not worth to buy, but not in all cases.
The product can have variable 'value' compared to last gen- that is you pay 1$ for every extra 1 FPS going gen to gen - but still be worth your buy if you really need the upgrade.
If I had the budget and needed an upgrade with max performance than 4080 is a terrific product- no one can deny it. Wonderful efficiency, feature rich, suprim build quality, strong drivers and only second to the mighty 4090 in absolute performance.
It all flip in a sec if you don't really need the upgrade or under constrained budget.
If you decide weather to buy or not based on relatedness to previous gens than you probably dont really need to upgrade. Maybe you want to, because you like to feel you to have 'the best' in your rig, but in this case any purchase - no matter how 'good value' it is relative to the past - will be a waste. In that case you better save, wait and upgrade when you really need it - that is you can`t technically game even when copremising on setting - or as much as your patience allow.

Every one have different patience tank and each individual has different amount of copremesis he willing to make before it turn to a clear cut unacceptable. Each one can also change those "parameters" within himself and by that one can change his own definition of what is 'good value'. It is not a fixed value and things are changing fast nowadays. Learn to adapt.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I partially agree- the answer is not clear cut in this case. Mostly not worth to buy, but not in all cases.
> The product can have variable 'value' compared to last gen- that is you pay 1$ for every extra 1 FPS going gen to gen - but still be worth your buy if you really need the upgrade.
> If I had the budget and needed an upgrade with max performance than 4080 is a terrific product- no one can deny it. Wonderful efficiency, feature rich, suprim build quality, strong drivers and only second to the mighty 4090 in absolute performance.
> It all flip in a sec if you don't really need the upgrade or under constrained budget.
> ...


A need to upgrade doesn't necessitate the need for an extra 20% performance for double the price. If you needed to upgrade, I'd suggest the 3080 or the 6900 XT. The 4080 and 4090 are only good buys if (as W1zzard said) you get thrown a coupon for a free graphics card. But nobody has one of those. That's why these cards don't deserve any award. They can only be recommended for buyers with infinite cash.


----------



## Wasteland (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> It was a fake price, and everybody knew that, the card really wasn't available at this price point. NVIDIA just though it would make people happy if they gave them a bs pricing. Soon after that I changed my reviews to use actual pricing that has availability, even if that means buying from eBay/scalpers


The (RTX 3080 MSRP) price wasn't fake from Nvidia's point of view, though.  Nvidia certainly wasn't pocketing the difference until much later in the crypto-boom, when they started releasing cards with ludicrous MSRPs (or no MSRP at all).   How do I know this?  Because 3080 FE cards, though rare as hen's teeth, _did sell_ at MSRP from Best Buy. The scalpers were the only ones making signficant money over and above the MSRP, at first. Then the AIBs joined in at some point by simply setting their retail prices skyward (earlier for AMD, IIRC--$1,000+ 6700 XT cards at retail); then Nvidia got into the act.

So I'm not entirely sure what your argument is with regard to Nvidia "faking" the MSRP.  Every time a new GPU launches, there's a shortage for a month or two or three.  We're all used to that.  We're also used to scalpers exacerbating shortage conditions.  It makes sense to reference the "real street price" from a consumer perspective, and I applaud your doing that in your reviews during the shortage, but imputing some sort of ulterior motive to Nvidia in this case seems bizarre.  Clearly Nvidia expected the cards to go for about $700 at the outset, just as prior generation *80 series cards had gone for more-or-less their MSRP after the initial rush.  The Crypto-boom/COVID-era shortage took everyone by surprise.

That is what makes this 4080/4090 release look so terrible.  Nvidia wants the crypto-boom feast to continue forever, or at the very least they want the consumer to pick up the tab for Nvidia's decision to over-commit with Ampere stock.  I feel like Nvidia sort of hacked the tech-enthusiast press by starting with the halo card, then waiting a month to release this 4080 monstrosity; tech-media outlets thrive on hype, so they graded these cards on a curve for lack of anything else to look at.  No offense to W1zzard; I love the guy's work, best tech site on the web, etc--but his comments here speak to my point:  he's comparing the 4080 to prior-gen halo products that were explicitly terrible value (3080 Ti and up), and then declaring, "huh, the 4080 doesn't look so bad!"

Ordinarily we would have _started_ with an 80-class card in the 6-700 dollar range. Or let's say $800 to be generous. That then would be measured against prior "mainstream high end" 80-class cards, not measured against ludicrously bad value propositions.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 18, 2022)

Wasteland said:


> _did sell_ at MSRP from Best Buy


Absolutely, there's always a small volume set aside for the MSRP, these are smart people. They also demand this from their board partners, yet the reality for the vast majority of people is different


----------



## trog100 (Nov 18, 2022)

Wasteland said:


> The price wasn't fake from Nvidia's point of view, though.  Nvidia certainly wasn't pocketing the difference until much later in the crypto-boom, when they started releasing cards with ludicrous MSRPs (or no MSRP at all).   How do I know this?  Because 3080 FE cards, though rare as hen's teeth, _did sell_ at MSRP from Best Buy. The scalpers were the only ones making signficant money over and above the MSRP, at first. Then the AIBs joined in at some point by simply setting their retail prices skyward (earlier for AMD, IIRC--$1,000+ 6700 XT cards at retail); then Nvidia got into the act.
> 
> So I'm not entirely sure what your argument is with regard to Nvidia "faking" the MSRP.  Every time a new GPU launches, there's a shortage for a month or two or three.  We're all used to that.  We're also used to scalpers exacerbating shortage conditions.  It makes sense to reference the "real street price" from a consumer perspective, and I applaud your doing that in your reviews during the shortage, but imputing some sort of ulterior motive to Nvidia in this case seems bizarre.  Clearly Nvidia expected the cards to go for about $700 at the outset, just as prior generation *80 series cards had gone for more-or-less their MSRP after the initial rush.  The Crypto-boom/COVID-era shortage took everyone by surprise.



the price of a product needs to be based on what the market will bear.. if it isnt one of two things can happen.. the product is always out of stock (unavailable) or it gets scalped up to a price the market will bear..

trog


----------



## Wasteland (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Absolutely, there's always a small volume set aside for the MSRP, these are smart people. They also demand this from their board partners, yet the reality for the vast majority of people is different


Right, but what does Nvidia get out of that prevarication if they're not profiting from the difference between MSRP and real market price?  This is my quibble here.  The scalpers were the ones who profited for the first few months.  As I said, even the Nvidia AIBs appeared to move much slower in adjusting prices in response to the bull market than AMD's AIBs--quite possibly due to Nvidia policy, as you suggest.  So the MSRP originally wasn't fake from the perspective of the people selling the cards.

It was absolutely a "fake" price as far as consumers were concerned.  But that isn't what we're discussing here.  The question is whether there's a legitimate relationship between e.g. the MSRP for the 3080 and its predecessors, and the MSRP for the 4080, and whether there's a worthwhile discussion to be had about that relationship.  The answer, to me, is an obvious "YES."


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Wasteland said:


> It was absolutely a "fake" price as far as consumers were concerned.  But that isn't what we're discussing here.  The question is whether there's a legitimate relationship between e.g. the MSRP for the 3080 and its predecessors, and the MSRP for the 4080, and whether there's a worthwhile discussion to be had about that relationship.  The answer, to me, is an obvious "YES."


I second that.



Wasteland said:


> Right, but what does Nvidia get out of that prevarication if they're not profiting from the difference between MSRP and real market price?  This is my quibble here.  The scalpers were the ones who profited for the first few months.  As I said, even the Nvidia AIBs appeared to move much slower in adjusting prices in response to the bull market than AMD's AIBs--quite possibly due to Nvidia policy, as you suggest.  So the MSRP originally wasn't fake from the perspective of the people selling the cards.


Personally, I don't really care about Nvidia or AMD's perspective. I only care about my perspective as a buyer. And my quibble as a buyer is that people who bought graphics cards from ebay scalpers at 2-3x store prices are stupid. If you were in dire need of a graphics card, you could always find a store or two where you could place a pre-order, or call them up and reserve a unit, or in the US, get on Evga's waiting list, or something. Or just buy a cheaper second-hand unit as an intermediate solution. Anything. Everybody knew that the crypto boom wouldn't last forever. Considering real store prices instead of MSRP is fair, but ebay scalper crypto prices are only for stupid people who will buy anything for any price regardless of recommendations. And when I compare store prices of the 3080 and 4080 right now, I see that you have to pay double for 20% more performance.


----------



## 64K (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I second that.
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't really care about Nvidia or AMD's perspective. I only care about my perspective as a buyer. And my quibble as a buyer is that people who bought graphics cards from ebay scalpers at 2-3x store prices are stupid. If you were in dire need of a graphics card, you could always find a store or two where you could place a pre-order, or call them up and reserve a unit, or in the US, get on Evga's waiting list, or something. Or just buy a cheaper second-hand unit as an intermediate solution. Anything. Everybody knew that the crypto boom wouldn't last forever. Considering real store prices instead of MSRP is fair, but ebay scalper crypto prices are only for stupid people who will buy anything for any price regardless of recommendations. And when I compare store prices of the 3080 and 4080 right now, I see that you have to pay double for 20% more performance.



I suspect that the majority of the cards being bought at 2 to 3 times MSRP were miners during the mining boom. I even saw them say that they did that and why they did that on TPU forums. They were making so much money that it was worth it and it was the only way to get a lot of cards quickly unless they knew how to use bots like the scalpers did.


----------



## Wasteland (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I second that.
> 
> 
> Personally, I don't really care about Nvidia or AMD's perspective. I only care about my perspective as a buyer. And my quibble as a buyer is that people who bought graphics cards from ebay scalpers at 2-3x store prices are stupid. If you were in dire need of a graphics card, you could always find a store or two where you could place a pre-order, or call them up and reserve a unit, or in the US, get on Evga's waiting list, or something. Or just buy a cheaper second-hand unit as an intermediate solution. Anything. Everybody knew that the crypto boom wouldn't last forever. Considering real store prices instead of MSRP is fair, but ebay scalper crypto prices are only for stupid people who will buy anything for any price regardless of recommendations.


Agreed.  The only reason I care about Nvidia's motives is that I don't think it's fair to wave away all MSRPs as irrelevant.  The 3080's MSRP meant something at the time it was set, just as the MSRPs for its predecessors meant something.  Nvidia was as surprised as the rest of us were when the cards started selling for 3-4 times their original asking price during the height of the COVID/crypto-boom era.

Honestly some of the talk on this forum seems to take it as given that the crypto-currency GPU shortage is still at its height.  "Prices are what the market will bear!"  Really?  Wow, excite me with more Econ 101 bromides.  Needless to say, Nvidia controls the supply for these cards, and given their absurdly high price point and the reportedly extensive leftover stock of Ampere cards, there's no downside for Nvidia in releasing 40-series cards in a trickle to inflate perceived demand for them.  We'll see how things shake out, but the real test would be what Nvidia has thus far refused to do: release mainstream cards at mainstream price points--i.e. volume business.  Then, if "real" prices skyrocket, scalpers thrive, etc, _only then_ can you say that the traditional pricing scheme for the GPU market is _hopelessly out of date due to insane market demand._

Until then, you're just looking at a sociopathic megacorporation that is butthurt about crypto-boom profits going away.  And those profits _did _go away, incidentally; this is a matter of record.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Wasteland said:


> Agreed.  The only reason I care about Nvidia's motives is that I don't think it's fair to wave away all MSRPs as irrelevant.  The 3080's MSRP meant something at the time it was set, just as the MSRPs for its predecessors meant something.  Nvidia was as surprised as the rest of us were when the cards started selling for 3-4 times their original asking price during the height of the COVID/crypto-boom era.
> 
> Honestly some of the talk on this forum seems to take it as given that the crypto-currency shortage is still at its height.  "Prices are what the market will bear!"  Really?  Wow, excite me with more Econ 101 bromides.  Needless to say, Nvidia controls the supply for these cards, and given their absurdly high price point and the reportedly extensive leftover stock of Ampere cards, there's no downside for Nvidia in releasing cards in a trickle to inflate perceived demand for them.  We'll see how things shake out, but the real test would be what Nvidia has thus far refused to do: release mainstream cards at mainstream price points.  Then, if "real" prices skyrocket, scalpers thrive, etc, _only then_ can you say that the traditional pricing scheme for the GPU market is _hopelessly out of date due to insane market demand._
> 
> Until then, you're just looking at a sociopathic megacorporation that is butthurt about crypto-boom profits going away.


Besides, if you wave away MSRPs as irrelevant, then you shouldn't be looking at the 4080 at its MSRP, either. Saying that the 4080 is a lot cheaper in stores _now_ than the 3080 was on ebay _during the crypto boom_ is an extremely biased statement that has no value for a present-day buyer. One should always compare real prices at the time of writing. Right now, the 3080 costs half as much as the 4080, but only performs 20% worse. That's the reality of it.


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> One should always compare real prices at the time of writing.


That's what I always do. I look up all the price points 1 or 2 days before the review



AusWolf said:


> Right now, the 3080 costs half as much as the 4080, but only performs 20% worse. That's the reality of it.





http://imgur.com/XjevCDW


Source for 20%? I see 33% or 49%, depending how you look at the difference


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> That's what I always do. I look up all the price points 1 or 2 days before the review


That's nice.  That's why I think that your price-to-performance graph speaks for itself.







W1zzard said:


> Source for 20%? I see 33% or 49%, depending how you look at the difference


The source is the relative performance graph at 1080p. I know, 1080p isn't really relevant at this price point, but even at 4K, the 3080 delivers 67% of the performance of the 4080 while only costing half as much. If the 3080 costs £739.98 at Scan UK, the 4080 should cost £1,100* at most. Instead, the cheapest model actually costs £1,354.99, which is £250 more than its worth. This value increases as you decrease resolution, making the 4080 an even worse value.

Edit: *It should only cost this much if we assume a 1:1 price-to-performance ratio in the generational leap, which shouldn't be the case. Around £900 would be more realistic.


----------



## HTC (Nov 18, 2022)

How about checking the previous 2 generation cards and their respective increases, when applicable?

For example, in the case of the 4080: check the price difference between 1080 and 2080, 2080 and 3080 and compare it to the price difference between 3080 and 4080.

- if the difference is roughly similar in all cases, then the value is roughly the same
- if it's much smaller, then it's great value
- if it's much larger, then it's poor value


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 19, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> That is simply not true, I have never seen any such NVIDIA guideline, nor has NVIDIA ever put any "or else" pressure on me.
> 
> The award is given, because it's the 2nd fastest card that exists, with the world's best power efficiency, with amazing performance in both raster and RT, and great features, at a terrible price. and like I said .. DO NOT BUY IT IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. It is still an unbelievably amazing card
> 
> If I give you a $1200 coupon for a GPU that expires next week, what would you buy today? Wait for the Radeons? Sure, definitely, you really should, and I'm surprised that so many people already know how well the product works... but I'm afraid that in the end most people will still buy NVIDIA (like in the last decade) or hope that AMD's success will force NVIDIA to lower their prices, which can definitely happen


I see, so in your world the card can cost whatever, as long as it is fast, efficient, has features, you give it the highest award. Price has no meaning or no inherence in the score.
I thought price was one of the most important metrics when one has to qualify a product.


----------



## ThrashZone (Nov 19, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> That is an interesting idea
> 
> Edit: Now looking at this chart and wondering "what's good value? where's the cutoff? isn't its "value" (price/perf, and that doesnt take into account efficiency and other things like features) actually comparable to the competing options (3090 ti, 3090, 3080 ti), just "price" is very high" ?


Hi,
Don't you use different color editor choice awards ?


----------



## Gica (Nov 19, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> Relevancy? I have no idea where you are going with this? How is this a justified means to stop people from voicing their disappointment with current prices? Stick to the same page please and stop skipping to page 324 where skippy skipped one too many skips and lost his way home.


Below you have a material in which I used the minimum video card (100W power, probably performance of GTX 1660 non Ti) and the processor set with Turbo OFF, PL1&2 65W (performance ~i5-10400). In captures you have a ~600$ configuration for cpu, gpu, MoBo and RAM, a configuration of components that definitely offers more performance than the chosen solution for video. New, not second hand.
Don't understand what you don't understand? How many times do I have to repeat that you don't need a mega-ultra-insane system to play?
Does something seem expensive to you? Choose a cheaper option. And you play!
Tragedy is when you need an organ for transplant, it costs $100,000 and you don't have the money. Then, the cheap option is the trick.
It's tragic when you can't pay bills, food, education. Then, the cheap option is the street.
What is so hard to understand?


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 19, 2022)

@W1zzard, how do you comment the fact that days after the RTX 4080 launched almost every model is still in stock and available? 

Geizhals.eu RTX 4080 availability

WCCFTech has an article about that:

Nobody Wants NVIDIA’s $1199 US GeForce RTX 4080: Despite Lower Shipments, Retailers & Stores Are Stocked With Cards

It seems like nobody really gives a damn if the card is recommended from TechPowerUp...



W1zzard said:


> That is simply not true, I have never seen any such NVIDIA guideline, nor has NVIDIA ever put any "or else" pressure on me.
> 
> The award is given, because it's the 2nd fastest card that exists, with the world's best power efficiency, with amazing performance in both raster and RT, and great features, at a terrible price. and like I said .. DO NOT BUY IT IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. It is still an unbelievably amazing card



That is simply playing ignorant. Yes, the card is fast, second fastest in the world, woo hoo! But that happened with every GPU release so far from the early 1990' on. How do you comment on the fact that if we had such price increases every generation, a mid to high end card from Nvidia would now cost approximately half a million dollars? How unbelievably amazing would that be, right? 

Again, conclusion paints the release if it's something miraculous - when in fact it offers the same kind of uplift as most of the releases in past 10 years, apart from Turing. But saying it like that kind of paints the $500 price hike in a bad light, doesn't it? 



W1zzard said:


> If I give you a $1200 coupon for a GPU that expires next week, what would you buy today? Wait for the Radeons? Sure, definitely, you really should, and I'm surprised that so many people already know how well the product works... but I'm afraid that in the end most people will still buy NVIDIA (like in the last decade) or hope that AMD's success will force NVIDIA to lower their prices, which can definitely happen



Where do I send you the address for the coupon? I can't say what I'll do, I'm terrible with hypothetical situations. ;-)


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> That is simply playing ignorant. Yes, the card is fast, second fastest in the world, woo hoo! But that happened with every GPU release so far from the early 1990' on. How do you comment on the fact that if we had such price increases every generation, a mid to high end card from Nvidia would now cost approximately half a million dollars? How unbelievably amazing would that be, right?
> 
> Again, conclusion paints the release if it's something miraculous - when in fact it offers the same kind of uplift as most of the releases in past 10 years, apart from Turing. But saying it like that kind of paints the $500 price hike in a bad light, doesn't it?


We're being told that "more performance comes at a higher price". The question is whether we believe it or not. I personally don't, because it's coming from the company that gave us the 1080 that was 50% faster than the 980 for a 10% higher MSRP. Now we have a 36% faster product (compared to the 3080 at 1440p) for a 71% higher MSRP. How is this not a tragedy for PC gaming?

Edit: If we look at the red side, there's also the 7900 XTX launching soon at the same MSRP as the 6900 XT did, so there's that.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 19, 2022)

It might as well be that Nvidia wants to abolish the "new generation, better price/performance" paradigm we became used to since the early days of PC.

The way Ada cards are priced they look like new Ampere products. An imaginary sales pitch at Nvidia surely sounded like this:

"We have a card that is just a bit faster than RTX 3090 Ti, and on a smaller node, and with less memory, let"s call it RTX 4080 instead of let's say 3090 SUPER - because that's the more popular tier. And raise the price a bit above the recently lowered MSRP of 3090 Ti. And call in the reviewers and make sure they point out this was a $2000 card a while ago! They're getting a bargain!

And then we have another new tier above that, we can price that to the moon! Why should we be limited to the prices of previous flagship models?

How silly we haven't thought of this before, 20 years ago, and only raised prices roughly in accordance with inflation?"


----------



## W1zzard (Nov 19, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> @W1zzard, how do you comment the fact that days after the RTX 4080 launched almost every model is still in stock and available?
> 
> Geizhals.eu RTX 4080 availability
> 
> ...


Thanks for making me sad and wonder "why am I doing this?" .. on a Saturday .. after working 100+ hours for each week for almost 20 years .. and more and more often the answer is "for the money", which is insanely good these days btw, and not "because I love what I do"


----------



## 64K (Nov 19, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Thanks for making me sad and wonder "why am I doing this?" .. on a Saturday .. after working 100+ hours for each week for almost 20 years .. and more and more often the answer is "for the money", which is insanely good these days btw, and not "because I love what I do"



Don't let the jokers bother you. 

This is not butt-kissing. You really are the best in the tech world and run the best site. It would be a serious loss without your knowledge and experience.


----------



## Wasteland (Nov 19, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Thanks for making me sad and wonder "why am I doing this?" .. on a Saturday .. after working 100+ hours for each week for almost 20 years .. and more and more often the answer is "for the money", which is insanely good these days btw, and not "because I love what I do"


It's the best PC hardware site on the internet.  I'm glad the money is good; you deserve it.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Thanks for making me sad and wonder "why am I doing this?" .. on a Saturday .. after working 100+ hours for each week for almost 20 years .. and more and more often the answer is "for the money", which is insanely good these days btw, and not "because I love what I do"


The fact that some of us don't agree with the award that you gave the 4080 and think that it's nothing more than an Nvidia cash-grab that nobody should ever buy for the price it's selling for, doesn't mean that TPU isn't one of the most valuable tech sites on the internet, hugely thanks to you. 



64K said:


> This is not butt-kissing. You really are the best in the tech world and run the best site. It would be a serious loss without your knowledge and experience.


I completely agree.

I stand by my argument that the 4080 doesn't deserve any award because of its horrible price-to-performance drop compared to nearly everything that has ever existed on the GPU market.

Regardless of this, I also stand by TPU being my favorite tech site due to the insanely detailed reviews which show the dedication and hard work that writers of most other sites don't bother with.

Thank you, TPU and @W1zzard , please keep it up!


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 19, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Thanks for making me sad and wonder "why am I doing this?" .. on a Saturday .. after working 100+ hours for each week for almost 20 years .. and more and more often the answer is "for the money", which is insanely good these days btw, and not "because I love what I do"



I apologize if this came personal, it's not. I hang out here because this site is now really one of the few that still does proper reviews, not just glorified press releases. 

And I agree with almost every point of the conclusion of review. It is a good product, often the performance increase like this came with power consumption increase, excessive noise and other problems. 

If there wasn't an unprecedented price increase, which in my opinion warrants a bit more than "With a price of $1200 for the RTX 4080 Founders Edition, the GeForce RTX 4080 is expensive.", and then justifying the price by comparing it to crypto inflated prices - which should have now be buried and forgotten with the worst crash of crypto in history. This is kind of material I'd expect from Nvidia PR, and then we'd have reviewer questioning that... 

Some reviewers (especially the Youtube kind) were even more defensive of the price - completely ignoring the highest price increase in history, or explaining it away as "luxury performance products warrant such prices".


----------



## Razrback16 (Nov 19, 2022)

Yep, I think both things can be true that due to the price of these cards, they honestly don't deserve any awards, and also people love W1zzard and TPU.


----------



## TriCyclops (Nov 20, 2022)

it's too expensive IMO.


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 20, 2022)

Gica said:


> Below you have a material in which I used the minimum video card (100W power, probably performance of GTX 1660 non Ti) and the processor set with Turbo OFF, PL1&2 65W (performance ~i5-10400). In captures you have a ~600$ configuration for cpu, gpu, MoBo and RAM, a configuration of components that definitely offers more performance than the chosen solution for video. New, not second hand.
> Don't understand what you don't understand? How many times do I have to repeat that you don't need a mega-ultra-insane system to play?
> Does something seem expensive to you? Choose a cheaper option. And you play!
> Tragedy is when you need an organ for transplant, it costs $100,000 and you don't have the money. Then, the cheap option is the trick.
> ...



OH MY GOODNESS!!! You're definitely TROLLING!!

Our entire point of discussion is based around the 4080's MSRP and your impolite mocking of people who are opposed to the new $$ highs. 


Not once have I or anyone else made the claim: we need, in your words, a _"mega-ultra-insane system to play"_ games. Thats a rediculous assertion (or accusation).


Not once have I or anyone else made the claim: affordable and performance savvy builds are not possible without the top dog GPUs. The market is full of opportunities.


I have no idea why you are injecting life-tragedies, bills, food, education, etc ....and now $100k organs for transplants... a mish mash of imposed correlations in a discussion where nobody is suggesting we are duty-bound to buy into any of these unreasonably priced cards. I haven't seen anyone displaying signs of deprivation, despondency or being famished in pursuit of the 4080. So.....why the mindlessly trivial DRAMA and play-acted diversion?


_"just dont buy"_ - your punch-drunk assertion is worn out. You really think most people who are claiming the 4080 is too expensive are going to buy into it? No such thing as a general discussion? or fear of how top-dog prices will affect the GPU segment going forward or the closely impending inevitably pricier tier-down 40-series cards? Actually don't answer that - you might end up fabricating another unrelated argument in its place - who knows maybe something like _"...but you dont understand, cigarettes cause cancer, lung disease, etc blah blah blah" _lol Crafty Shafty!!

Simply put , you're just manufacturing arguments which have no mention in this thread in an attempt to thwart your earlier blemishes. Your double-dealing insincere methods to carry simple discussions forward is an extremely unattractive proposition... its no different to blatant lying/fabricating smoke-screens. You still have a problem with people suggesting the 4080 is too expensive. IMO, thats a pretty simple premise (with various concerns/pretexts already shared in this thread). It's nice to see you've stopped rediculing these opinions with the "stop whining" and "river of tears" mockery etc etc... i guess there has been some progress but sadly overshadowed with all the mythically fallacious theatre which is immensely expanding on a post-by-post basis.

....a TROLL spanking would be in order!!



TriCyclops said:


> it's too expensive IMO.



TBH, that was my feeling since 2017 when upgrading to a 1080 TI. "too expensive" for a 4080 seems too kind... its an absolute strip naked rip-off for the XX80 division.


----------



## Gica (Nov 23, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> You still have a problem with people suggesting the 4080 is too expensive.


Expensive, but it sells like hot cakes. How would you proceed if you sell something that is in high demand? Are you lowering the price? Do you swear on the Bible that you do that?
Your logic fracture and, probably, trolling pro AMD, sells from where you don't understand (or pretend you don't understand) that 4080/90 are the most powerful video cards on the planet. Compared to the 3090Ti ($1999), the 4080 is really cheap at $1200... if you can buy it at that price. It has new built-in features and is much more efficient at the FPS/Watt ratio. Don't tell me about the AMD variants, with ray tracing at RTX 3070 level for the flagship and with the same productivity performance. Ray Tracing can no longer be ignored in 2022.
The rest is, as I said, lamentation.

AMD reduced the prices of the Ryzen 7000 series. Not because you are screaming on the forums, but because Intel demolished them in terms of price/performance.
And with video cards you will see the same scheme if AMD comes up with something competitive, price/performance. For now, *nVidia is playing alone*, that's why they released 4090 before 4080, to maximize their profit.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 23, 2022)

Gica said:


> but it sells like hot cakes


Not really...









































https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elv3e1BjWmw&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXC4z54UGUk


----------



## Gica (Nov 23, 2022)

https://www.scan.co.uk/search?q=rtx+4080
		









						rtx 4080 | Newegg.com
					

Search Newegg.com for rtx 4080. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.




					www.newegg.com
				



Can you find something under $1200?


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 23, 2022)

Gica said:


> https://www.scan.co.uk/search?q=rtx+4080
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, just not there.


----------



## Gica (Nov 24, 2022)

NVIDIA has sold 160K GeForce RTX 40 graphics cards already, but stores are still full of RTX 4080s - VideoCardz.com
					

NVIDIA RTX 40 sales reports The RTX 4080 is not selling particularly well on the first week.  First estimates on RTX 40 series sales have been shared by a few sources, but even despite impressive numbers, retailers are worried it may not as popular a choice as RTX 4090. According to Wccftech and...




					videocardz.com
				



Yesterday, Nov 23:
RTX 4090 (launch: Oct 12): 3023 units sold per day
RTX 4080 (release: Nov 16): 3750 units sold per day
So, they sell. Probably not what some expected (reflex from the glory era of crypto-currencies?), but one should not swallow the idiocy that they are not sold if you find them in stores. The video card is not an egg, throw it away after a few days if you don't sell it quickly.


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 24, 2022)

Gica said:


> ....Expensive, but it sells like hot cakes....





Gica said:


> .....Compared to the 3090Ti ($1999), the 4080 is really cheap at $1200.....



"expensive" or "really cheap".... which is it?

Compared to 3090 TI? hehe. Sure now we have a highly qualified position for "relative pricing". I hope you've got your vaccine and boosters in check... pls stay in your 20-foot-under quarantine bunker. Up here on the earths surface the covid/crypto era of mass exploitation is still at work - we'll let you when its safe

Selling like hot cakes? More like moulded low-supply manipulation. Sorry we ain't falling for that again.... Here in the UK, retail stock is sitting idle on the most part. So even low quantities ain't cutting it... some retailers didnt even get a share of the quota (although i suspect at initial stages, none was offered until the out-of-stock illusion for a quick price crank up/bolstered MSRP is achieved).



Gica said:


> Ray Tracing can no longer be ignored in 2022.



oops i missed that memo. _"RT can no longer be ignored" ....w_e are so screwed. I bet bob at the estates earning £50 a week is probably considering selling his house. How else will he afford this 2022 inevitability. Hold on aren't you the same Gica selling _"just dont buy"._... with that odd argument (rephrased to memory) _"there being more important things to consider with the likes of hiked up interest rates, bills, loans/mortgages, food, etc"_ and going as far as (and nuts) introducing medical concerns with _"$100k organs for transplants"_ ........you changed your tune quick. Funny though, i'm surfing a 2080 TI and haven't bothered with RT - oh yeah, performance tax + hardly much content available.



Gica said:


> trolling pro AMD



a presumptuous average-joe low-blow.

…doesn’t deserve a response – but I don’t mind asserting my position if you ask me respectfully.


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 24, 2022)

Gica said:


> one should not swallow the idiocy that they are not sold if you find them in stores


You can read my post again if you like, i never said they were not selling. They are just not selling "like hot cakes" and i did show evidence.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 24, 2022)

Remember, being OK with 70% price increase will inevitably lead to this:


2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
2024, RTX 5080 - $2040
2026, RTX 6080 - $3468
2028, RTX 7080 - $5896
2030, RTX 8080 - $10022
2032, RTX 9080 - $17038
2034, GTX 1080 - $28965

Solution?


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 24, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Remember, being OK with 70% price increase will inevitably lead to this:
> 
> 
> 2022, RTX 4080 - $1200
> ...



According to Gica, as long as there is the anomaly of demand it doesn't matter how much a graphics card costs. Apparently nothing else matters... a more recent Gica certified development being, if you oppose these spendthrift prices you must be an AMD-fanboy. In Gica's world, prioritising customer satisfaction alongside a healthy profitable business is absurd.

therefore....



Bwaze said:


> Solution?



Gica: Keep increasing the price until we find the tipping point of no sale. Then underclock the price by small $0.20 cent increments until we find a decent quantifiable sale (maybe 10 sold) and yippee we've got our new standardised GPU price. If anyone complains, Gica has a solution for that too.... "Just dont buy". There, the problem is solved... priceless intelligence from our in-house Gica tech economic expert!!


----------



## Gica (Nov 27, 2022)

Hmmm (capture1)
Shall we also look at the processors?
I do not excuse them, nor do I criticize them. This is the market. The video card for gaming is a gadget that you can completely do without. If you can afford something, buy it. If not, cry on the forums. You are really embarrassing with your "analyses".



wheresmycar said:


> Gica has a solution for that too.... "Just dont buy". There, the problem is solved... priceless intelligence from our in-house Gica tech economic expert!!


I give you a real example that has nothing to do with the it area, but the similarities are damn striking.
By 2018, I think, an anti-EU party, even anti-NATO, modified the off-shore law (for natural gas) in such a way that potential investors took their bags and left. The result: the gas lies in the ground instead of being exploited at current prices, pure gold. And we are not talking about a bottle, but many billions of $. Inevitably, the law was amended, but exploitation of the deposits will only begin in 2026, in the most optimistic scenario.
And now we return to video cards, kindergarten intelligence. Let's admit by absurdity that someone will look into your mouth and make the decision to sell very cheaply. You buy cheap, but the profit decreases, dissatisfied shareholders will migrate to more profitable areas. What is the long-term, average and even short-term result, smart guy? Simple: the profit decreases, the investment in research also decreases, in the future you will receive video cards with marginal performance increases... refresh, refresh, refresh. For many employees: dismissal. You would probably like to work in such a company, LOL.
We are discussing for the sake of discussion because *in the real world EVERYONE wants maximum profit and will not hesitate to get it. The only obstacle to unlimited profit is demand, smartass*.
Proverb: "It's not stupid who asks, it's stupid who gives" (right photo)


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 28, 2022)

Profits are already decreasing sharply. Even without our "kindergarden inteligence". How's that satisfying shareholders? 

Nvidia's profit cycle in gaming is now very tightly tied to cryptominer buying habits (and wider, since they're hiding the source of income and hiding crypto money under pro hraphics, server). With the largest crypto crash in history (not only in value, but in customer trust), and with largest GPU mineable coin going away from unsustainable "proof of work" there is no end in sight to this bear trend, at least not for home miners. 

And what is Nvidia doing? Holding the percieved "high value" in products very little people really want that much, waiting for the market, customers to change.


----------



## Gica (Nov 28, 2022)

The crypto era is over. This decline was to be expected, but they will not accept an even greater decline because you have idiots in the marketing department. Although AMD does not say, their decline also has deep roots in the crypto collapse.
Yes, kindergarten. nVidia offers manufacturers a graphics chip, specifications and a recommended price (MSRP). It's a long way to the graphics card in its final form (a whole industry operates there, from screws to mosfets, via transport). I guess, (LOL) the final price is imposed by the producers. Without them, nVidia sells nothing. So, the final price of the product you see does not come from nVidia but from the entire chain. If only one says NO, the product does not reach the store. This is where the buyer comes into play, the most important link in the chain. If it seems expensive, don't buy. Stay with the old video card, buy something else, cheaper, or migrate to something else (consoles, smartphone, etc.).
I don't know how to explain it more simply, so you can understand it too.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 28, 2022)

The crypto era was over several times before. Coins lost even more value percentage wise in 2018 crash, and I think behaviour of Nvidia in 2018, 2019 and early 2020 was completely guided by waiting for another crypto wave - which happened right when Nvidia promised Ampere cards with great performance uplift and lower prices than previous generation. Which the customers never saw, because mining was already on the rise, and Nvidia could be sure everything would be bought even for a much higher price. 

So now we are in a "Turing part II." era. Nvidia can afford to just wait out this crypto bear market, and the coming 2, 3 years blame the ungrateful gamers for the revenue loss. And spend (in secret) a lot of resources and money on planning and promoting next mineable coins - which will be even more inviting for the cryptobelievers than ETH, since they are starting almost from zero! Imagine the profit! 

And gamers? Who cares about poor people...


----------



## cvearl (Nov 28, 2022)

Saldy nVidia chose to use the 4090 with a restricted inventory and very high launch price. This creates a price vaccume below keeping all cards below it artifically higher. Much higher than they should be. Normally 3000 series should be on clearance and dissapear in weeks and be replaced by the 4000 series. That is not how it's being played. Or how WE ARE BEING PLAYED should I say. By doing this sure... they sell less units. Take a few ugly coments on line from gamers but that is ok for nVidia. Look at it this way. They would rather sell 1 card at a $500 net profit than sell 4 at $100 net Profit. Too bad most of us do not understand these things and will still buy this crap. Really it is just a new gen of cards. It is not the second coming. You want to stop this nonsense? Vote with your wallet. AMD better not let the price creap up too. If they do I will skip another whole year and stick with my 6800XT which I paid $300 less than the 3080 at the same store and love it.


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 28, 2022)

Gica said:


> Hmmm (capture1)
> Shall we also look at the processors?
> I do not excuse them, nor do I criticize them. This is the market. The video card for gaming is a gadget that you can completely do without. If you can afford something, buy it. If not, cry on the forums. You are really embarrassing with your "analyses".
> 
> ...



...............and??

You've gone back to the GICA magic show of fashioning responses to non-existent disputes. What on earth are you on about with all this self-extrapolated malarky? Preaching the snowballing profit ambition which is indisputably and pointlessly obvious is solving what issue? Has anyone suggested otherwise? Or are we all (the consumer) supposed to shake the booty and do the flattering circle dance in applauding soaring prices?

I've only seen comments (in this thread) exemplifying disappointment with current GPU prices (which nV is no doubt milking with 40-series). Such voicing of concerns/thoughts are far from unusual from a mass-consumer point of view. Nothing alarmingly new here... nothing disturbingly flawed here.... no one is challenging your partisan corporate fruits nor the economic framework in which the profit beasts run their claws.... but you seem extremely adamant in propagandising consumer sentiments into submission – the absurdity of it!! Doesn’t matter what argument you present, you’re not going to change the simple logic - “4080 is overpriced”. The EU, NATO, the Warsaw Pact, even the Incredible Hulk (I’m sure he exists in your weird but magical world) can’t help you capsize this widely cited reality. Although I have to admit, it’s electrifyingly entertaining to see how you’re spinning simple consumer discontentment to all-out WAR in every and any effort (99% off-topic) - in heroic like defence to praise and willfully sanction the corporate milking vehicle (or as it seems, more specifically nV). We get it, the show must go on…

…although - a special request: I would appreciate if your next batch of diversion-filled triviality of a response hits our screens before 7pm (UK time) on Tuesday 29th November. That’s around the time my wife returns after work with the weeks groceries. I’m expecting popcorn and ice cream which would make a perfect treat for the next episode of the _“Gica Comedy Hour: Just Don’t Buy and keep Crying”_ show. Hope she’s buying a couple of tissue boxes too


----------



## Gica (Nov 29, 2022)

In our country, the price of a 6800XT or 6900XT is a stone's throw from the price of a 4080. Of course, the 6950XT surpasses everything, but the revolt on the forum has a precise target: f@ck nVidia!!!
If someone throws away 10 pieces at a dumping price, it doesn't mean that real life is like that. As the AMD video card reports record productions for energy savings. On paper, via OSD, of course, because at the outlet it's a different reality.
Continue the revolt, please. It is possible to force them to reduce the prices by $0.99 if you insist.


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 29, 2022)

Gica said:


> In our country, the price of a 6800XT or 6900XT is a stone's throw from the price of a 4080. Of course, the 6950XT surpasses everything, but the revolt on the forum has a precise target: f@ck nVidia!!!
> ...




You do realize this is a thread about Nvidia RTX 4080 review, right?


----------



## N3M3515 (Nov 29, 2022)

Gica said:


> In our country, the price of a 6800XT or 6900XT is a stone's throw from the price of a 4080. Of course, the 6950XT surpasses everything, but the revolt on the forum has a precise target: f@ck nVidia!!!
> If someone throws away 10 pieces at a dumping price, it doesn't mean that real life is like that. As the AMD video card reports record productions for energy savings. On paper, via OSD, of course, because at the outlet it's a different reality.
> Continue the revolt, please. It is possible to force them to reduce the prices by $0.99 if you insist.


That's does not change the fact that the 4080 is ridiculously overpriced. And besides, why do you care about a bunch of people complaining about price? You still find the time to come here and complain about others complain.........LOL


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 30, 2022)

Gica said:


> In our country, the price of a 6800XT or 6900XT is a stone's throw from the price of a 4080. Of course, the 6950XT surpasses everything, but the revolt on the forum has a precise target: f@ck nVidia!!!
> If someone throws away 10 pieces at a dumping price, it doesn't mean that real life is like that. As the AMD video card reports record productions for energy savings. On paper, via OSD, of course, because at the outlet it's a different reality.
> Continue the revolt, please. It is possible to force them to reduce the prices by $0.99 if you insist.



_revolt? _Thats a harsh melodramatic depiction of the 'inevitably disappointed' broader consumer base. This is not some sort of anti-nV mutinous rebellion or an AMD-sponsored "kill the green monster" campaign. Nothing of the sort... although it's clearly evident this is the position you're taking at your own discretion. I never did warm up to skirmishing AMD and NVIDIA self-affiliated ground troopers.... it doesn't make sense firing sponge stones and rubber bullets on behalf of profiteering giants. The broader consumer perspective outside of the bias is a valid one... whereby if people choose to voice their opinions against these soaring prices (or price/supply manipulation), so be it! It's hardly an attempt to give birth to revolutions... just the common folk appreciating common sense.

FYI, I love NVIDIA products... from 500M-series (laptops) all the way to 900-series dedicated cards. Eventually grabbed the cream of the crop "pricier" 1080 ti .... a few years later, the even more pricier CLC 2080 TI which is my current weekly gaming driver (yep, never touched AMD cards for gaming). On top, I was window-shopping for a 3080/TI but price inflation was a no-go. Waited for 40-series....and now the 4080 with its overly $$$-enriched default MSRP is a big NO-GO. For me it's not about affordability or brand aversion... but with these current prices no-doubt setting some principles or boundaries is hardly "insurrection".



Gica said:


> It is possible to force them to reduce the prices by $0.99 if you insist.


Great news, deserving of a reward! I hope the dollar store gift wraps their chocolate bars - i owe you one!


----------



## Gica (Nov 30, 2022)

If I pay a high price for something (over $1100 in this case), I have claims to:
1. Rasterization performance at the highest details in 4K.
2. Performance with ray tracing enabled
3. Performance in productivity (encoding, 3D, streaming, etc.)
From this whole lot, AMD ticks only point 1 (without surpassing the nVidia version), but it seriously fails in the others. It's only worth it if you catch a very good offer, but it's not a small amount of money and you might regret it later. 
This is the offer at the moment. Maybe AMD's 7000 series will regulate the market in favor of the buyer (I hope not with "Vega, poor Volta"), but that's how the pawns sit on the table now.

------
Question:
Those from nVidia learn from the press that there are protests all over the world because of the high prices of video cards. They will open the computers and find out that, nevertheless, the goods sell well, the profit is satisfactory. How will they proceed?
If you have your store, many people buy and the profit satisfies you, will you reduce the prices because two or three pensioners are making noise outside?
No, you won't reduce anything. You will be forced to do it only if the customers leave you.
------

Continue the protest! The government may fall and the 4090 will cost $99.99, and you will receive money for the purchase of a 4080.
Or, as I keep saying, don't buy!


----------



## Bwaze (Nov 30, 2022)

I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry.


----------



## wheresmycar (Nov 30, 2022)

Gica said:


> If I pay a high price for something (over $1100 in this case), I have claims to:
> 1. Rasterization performance at the highest details in 4K.
> 2. Performance with ray tracing enabled
> 3. Performance in productivity (encoding, 3D, streaming, etc.)
> ...



that's your priviledged and limited opinion. For most people, a whopping 70% increase in price over already several previous Gen expensive MSRPs for a next Gen product is rediculous and not worth buying into. For the creator segment it plays out inversely but for most gamers (you know the mass-consumer base) these 1./2. bragging rights are nice but ABSOLUTELY not worth the dollar they're printed on.



Gica said:


> Question:
> Those from nVidia learn from the press that there are protests all over the world because of the high prices of video cards. They will open the computers and find out that, nevertheless, the goods sell well, the profit is satisfactory. How will they proceed?
> If you have your store, many people buy and the profit satisfies you, will you reduce the prices because two or three pensioners are making noise outside?
> No, you won't reduce anything. You will be forced to do it only if the customers leave you.



Protests? where? lol

I've been looking out of my window regularly and haven't seen a single protestor with banners and loud speakers. No mention on the news. No mention online. Not even on the radio! Only the Gica trumpet is suggesting otherwise.

or are you making things up again?



Gica said:


> Continue the protest! The government may fall and the 4090 will cost $99.99, and you will receive money for the purchase of a 4080.
> Or, as I keep saying, don't buy!



The Government may fall? looooooooool Gica... your trumpet just blew up. King of Drama, Zero of Actualities!


----------

