# Hardware Elitism - a tech scourge that needs to die.



## the54thvoid (Mar 28, 2021)

So, I'm posting this as a reaction to a few recent threads where I've seen people being ridiculed for having a 'below par' hardware set-up. Whether that be a lower level GFX card, a lower core CPU, or an AIO from DELL, a portion of the community reaction has been absolutely appalling. I made some life choices and have the fortune of a stable, mediocre salary_ and no kids_. My last great PC splurge was a 2080ti. The last time I would spend 4 figures on what to me is a toy (and that came from an inheritance). And I class myself as fortunate. There are more people on this forum who can't buy 'top end' kit than those that do. And ocassionally, a thread appears where someone posts about what they've bought. Those who buy something that doesn't meet some magical 'tech standard' appear to be mocked. 

It's a disgrace. A dispicable representation of the worst of ourselves.

Maybe I'm being harsh but last time I mocked somebody for being less fortunate than myself was...  no wait, I'm not that much of an arsehole. And before you all get antsy and say TPU is a tech forum; that doesn't excuse the elitism that has begun to appear. Who cares what somebody buys - what we're here to do is support and advise. TPU is a community that has a broad spectrum of incomes and expenditure. Certainly, as the world has turned, hardware is getting more and more expensive. Not everybody is earning more and more cash. Heads up, I earn less than my nations average income (no kids goes a long way to making it easier to buy shit I actually don't need). It's hard for me to justify a £1000 gfx card these days.

So, when somebody buys something that might not be cutting edge, it's a loser's move to make fun of it. TPU is about tech, whether it's the cheapest, _or the most expensive_. We should make that person feel happy with their purchase, perhaps advise on future improvements. Certainly, laughing emoji's posted as a response to a purchase are pathetic. They say more about the member's reaction than they do about the OP's purchase. Tech starts as a bargain bucket purchase. Or a hand-me-down. By the way, feel free to *Pay It Forward.* It can climb all the way to a HOF RTX 3090. And just as the budget scale, it shows weakness to mock someone spending at the other end. Tech is tech. People have different budgets. Whatever that budget, TPU should offer support. Not condemnation. Certainly not mockery.

Just my two cents about some very disturbing recent trends. As a mod. If I see it happening, I'll just start handing out infractions left, right and centre. 

If you can't support the community, why are you even here?


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 28, 2021)

Well said!


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## Atomic77 (Mar 28, 2021)

I feel like it happens to me all the time whenever I do something and I am the kind of person that can’t have the best in everything but I make do with ever I can get at the time.


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## HD64G (Mar 28, 2021)

Smart buying isn't to be mocked. And whoever is pleased with 1080P maxed out or even medium with 60FPS or above and has no intention on overspending is just a sensible consumer. Elitism is a bad attitude in ALL aspects of life.


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

Devil's advocate: don't we need people who are willing to pay top dollar for the latest and greatest so it succeeds and becomes cheaper?

My house is full of old equipment that people dumped as no longer being hip.


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## heni87 (Mar 28, 2021)

Someone had to say it. Proud of ya son.


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## trog100 (Mar 28, 2021)

maybe i shouldn't say this but i see more derision aimed at people who can i do pay todays higher end hardware prices to be honest..

only a fool would pay that for that being an example.. 

what i have just said maybe not in the intended spirit of the thread but its what i am seeing.. 

trog


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## Dinnercore (Mar 28, 2021)

Thanks for addressing that. I personally value and treasure all kinds of PC hardware. I'm an enthusiast, on one hand that means I spend nonsensical amounts of money way over what would be considered healthy on hardware but on the other hand I love ANY tech from ANY period of time.
I play with my HEDT platform in the same way I tinker and play with my C2Ds from 13 years ago. I love both parts equally. To me it isn't about the budget or the money, its the fun I have with PC parts.

And when I try to help someone out or answer questions I focus on what I work with instead of telling someone their stuff is outdated. If they are in a position where they need their 775 platform to live a little while longer or get some more performance out of it, I would love to help.

I think the trouble sparks from people not being able to differentiate their situation with other peoples situation. They think, oh its no problem for me to just buy a new PSU or updating a whole platform is easy and better compared to just a drop in CPU upgrade without ever stopping to think if that was what an OP asked for.

ALWAYS read, refer and stick to what someone has asked. If you think there is a better / more economical way forward you can state that neutrally without being condescending! And if they decline that path, instead of getting upset and calling them poor you can just stick to their original idea and help them out there.
Like recommending a decent and available quad-core as a replacement for a C2D on 775. Might even be able to find those for free in some waste-bins from recyclers e.g..

I don't get why anyone would ever leverage a purely fictional higher position when it comes to E-Di** length based on spend dollars. Especially with current gen its a tough situation everyone is in. So what if you got lucky and were able to get a current gen card. Who cares.


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## JackDarx (Mar 28, 2021)

For me as someone who over the years 99% lurked around and read the forums, TPU over the years has always been about people doing the best they can with what they've got, whether it's vintage hardware, current low end hardware or the absolute top end that no sane person can think about, or some real white unicorns (wink wink Rare/Unreleased GPU thread is awesome). And sharing that experience with others.

And of course, eidaraman (apologies if I got the nick wrong haha) fixing the goddamn cards for people by giving them the right bios!


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## Deleted member 205776 (Mar 28, 2021)

Wholeheartedly agree. Being an elitist for a certain company is also frowned upon by me. It's just stupid.


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## freeagent (Mar 28, 2021)

I love old hardware as much as new hardware. The only difference between the two is one is newer than the other, and I was old enough to be around for them both  Both were awesome in their time. Personally, I think its ok to be a little snobby about the hardware you choose, because you have your personal experience to fall back on. Like buying one name over the other because of something in the past.. But new guy just blew a bunch of cash and rubs it in every ones face? Especially in these days? Yup pos.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Devil's advocate: don't we need people who are willing to pay top dollar for the latest and greatest so it succeeds and becomes cheaper?


 That is not the point here at all! 

Of course we (consumers) need buyers to buy the latest cutting edge components to help drive the costs down for everyone else. But being that buyer IN NO WAY justifies putting down and ridiculing the rest of us for not buying those top-tier (and most expensive) items. That's the point of this thread. 

Many of us don't have the budgets (for any number of reasons) to spend that kind of money. Many of us don't have the need to spend that kind of money - so why should we spend that kind of money? And many of us don't have the desire to spend that kind of money. None of those scenarios deserve criticisms or belittling. 

I have to say, I have experienced this myself. I am fortunate that my financial situation today does provide me the opportunity to buy top tier components. But that is due mostly to the fact I have worked for 55 years of my life and now all my kids have grown up and are out of the house that I have been making payments on for almost 30 years. 

I've been a computer enthusiasts since I stood inside a NORAD mainframe computer in the early 70s. But I am NOT a gamer. Therefore, I don't spend big time money on a gaming graphics card, for example. Yet I have received comments suggesting I can't be an enthusiasts because I didn't buy a K model CPU or a better GPU, or because I no longer overclock.  

That said, those comments now just illustrate a lack of maturity, a narrow scope of experience of the poster and not any lack of ability or desire, and especially any inferiority on my part. 

I will say this to the54thvoid and others - it is not just this site. While it is prevalent here, it definitely is not exclusive to here. I visit several sites daily and see it every where. But this is one of the more popular/active sites, so it may seem to be worse here than elsewhere. Its not. 

I will also say this - I feel over the last 6 - 8 months, it has gotten better here, thanks to the moderator staff reigning in some of the comments. But it still happens.  And probably always will. 

And for sure, it is not just in the computer world. I remember when I bought my new F150 with its "XLT" trim level, a "friend" made a snarky comment that I his F150 with its "Platinum" trim level (which cost nearly $20,000 more was better. Even though the trucks had the same towing and hauling capacities, same gas mileage, etc.


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## phanbuey (Mar 28, 2021)

Quite the opposite.  I can afford highest end stuff, but I find myself much more pleased with lower end builds that get awesome performance anyways... Nothing makes me more happy than seeing someone who is getting good FPS on a Ryzen 3500 and 5600xt and is just enjoying the game, or someone building a 12 core monster xeon off $50 ES samples from ebay .  Those are the most fun builds.


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## PaulieG (Mar 28, 2021)

Great freaking post! Let people enjoy their stuff. Elitism blows. Oh, and I'm kinda like phanbuey. I can buy just about whatever I want, but I focus on midgrade stuff that I can get to perform better than high end equipment through skill.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Mar 28, 2021)

You finally said it. Frankly I started to see this elitism creeping out and the looking down on "low spec gamer" stuff that it turn me off from logging in here sometimes. Low spec and low end is a topic that is not often discuss unless it is in the retro or nostalgia hardware subforum. I have been a low spec gamer for many years on intel gma graphics and it was only last year that I could finally splurge for high gfx card. Low spec gaming have its place.  A majority of people is not lucky enough to live in a first world country with a good paying job and low price pc part. Stepping out the Usa pc for even low end like gtx1050 can be 30% to 40% than the USA and on top of that 3rd world wages made further worse of a few hundred dollars a month if you are lucky. There is simply no way you can even step up to even a mid end PC in those place. Low spec gamer channel gives a good discussion regarding this and how US centric most reviews are and budget built are without accounting other countries where its not possible. It does annoy me and pissed me off reading on youtube comment too like "hurr durr 500GB ssd is so cheap now get a job poor sod". I may exaggerate but it common on youtube. That 500GB is probably 3 month wages in some countries if they don't use it for anything else.

It are problem when in general most tech catered to wealthy part of the world and many review and youtubers promoting them. Low end stuff rather a niche and often comes in languages other than english.

Edit : On the other hand I can see how frustrated people from this forum is when someone ask something where is simply not possible with the hardware they got. On my view though I think it can steer further to guide them to games they got play instead if low resolution hacks is too much to do.


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## Tom Sunday (Mar 28, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> There are more people on this forum who can't buy 'top end' kit than those that do. And ocassionally, a thread appears where someone posts about what they've bought. Those who buy something that doesn't meet some magical 'tech standard' appear to be mocked.
> 
> You are 100% correct. But it's a plain fact that the majority of participants here are in same boat financially as yours truly and who are barely scraping by in the present and trying times. Many of us have seen better times. Whereby for some others it's easy here to throwing around negative commentaries just to sound smart and or to venting perhaps some of their frustrations and which is very unfortunate. But that is the world we are living in now. Social media at its best or at its very worst. My Mom used to say: "If you have nothing good to say, then dont say anything at all." Greetings to you from the man on the street.


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## BSim500 (Mar 28, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> Just my two cents about some very disturbing recent trends. As a mod. If I see it happening, I'll just start handing out infractions left, right and centre.


Agree 100%. I tend to buy lower-end components not out of poverty but simply because I prefer the feel of older games, have a huge collection of +2,000x games going back 35 years, have lost a lot of interest in online multi-player plus a lot of overly-recycled / flogged to death 15-25 year old IP that seems to form much of "new" AAA games anyway and already have more backlogged games than I have spare time to play them. So why upgrade / overbuy if you simply don't need to? The number of times I've seen BS uttered like "It's 2021. You need at least 8x cores for gaming" whilst back in the real world, that translates more as "Out of the 30,000 games available to buy on Steam, you need 8x cores for the 0.02% of least optimised bad-port / performance turds, but 99.98% will run fine on a 6C/12T / 99% on a 4C/8T"... Same goes for funny stuff like this, which I've long stopped seeing as a hardware problem and now see it entirely as a software problem (in the _"can't code for sh*t"_ sense....) 

I sometimes think tech sites do accidentally encourage this "Only AAA's are real games" BS though with "the gap" that lies between what gets hyped / benchmarked vs what's actually being played the most in the real world with far less hype. Eg, the serious reality check to _"Can you run Cyberpunk 2077 at 4K with Ray-Tracing because that's all 2021 is about"_, is this page showing what most people are actually playing, as well as this page showing how they're playing it on (hardware / resolution, etc). It's definitely why I appreciate TechpowerUp reviews for continuing to include benchmarks like Divinity Original Sin 2 and Witcher 3 as a reality check. "But who plays those in 2021?" A. Clearly a lot more people than are playing Far Cry 5, Borderlands 3, AC Odyssey, etc... 



Andy Shiekh said:


> Devil's advocate: don't we need people who are willing to pay top dollar for the latest and greatest so it succeeds and becomes cheaper?


I'd say it works the exact opposite - top end enthusiasts are consistently driving prices UP not down and giving manufacturers less incentive to rush to innovate with silly money pouring in for flagship phones or 4-digit GPU's. When the previous 2x generation CPU's (eg, Ryzen 1600/2600/3600 / i5-10400F / i5-9400F) were nearer £130 but soar in price to £330, and when xx60 GPU's increased from £160 to £360 even before scalping, then I'm seeing more "trickle up" than "trickle down effect" from the latest and greatest CPU's & GPU's (by far the two components usually wrapped in the most e-peen BS...) What drove SSD's $/GB to fall also wasn't a handful of elitists buying early 4TB Samsung 850's several years back, but rather sheer volume of demand for lower capacities. We'd also still have solid mainstream phones even without comically overpriced and over-pretentious "flagships". As far as income for future R&D is concerned, what lower-end components lack in margin they usually more than make up for in volume and all many enthusiasts have really ended up doing (especially for GPU's) is normalizing heavy price-inflation.


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## AsRock (Mar 28, 2021)

Cannot say i seen it on here, maybe the posts get deleted before i see them ?.


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## Sithaer (Mar 28, 2021)

Thanks for addressing this!

I despise any form of elitism and try to stay away from it.  _'dealing with those ppl just makes my blood boil+waste of my time'_
What some ppl seem to not realize or just don't care about it that this is an international site/forum and not everyone is from a wealthy country and such. _'also having to pay more for the same hardware cause higher taxes'_

I am a budget hardware user but that doesn't make me any less interested in tech related stuff, I read the reviews and follow multiple tech sites/channels and whatnot just like most of us here.
Actually I enjoy following those low spec/budget channels more and see what those can do, find it more interesting and relatable.

And yea ppl who answer with the laughing emote in the tech purchase topic don't even worth my time, shows their maturity alright. _'seen this done by supposedly older users than me'_




Bill_Bright said:


> I will say this to the54thvoid and others - it is not just this site. While it is prevalent here, it definitely is not exclusive to here. I visit several sites daily and see it every where. But this is one of the more popular/active sites, so it may seem to be worse here than elsewhere. Its not.
> 
> I will also say this - I feel over the last 6 - 8 months, it has gotten better here, thanks to the moderator staff reigning in some of the comments. But it still happens.  And probably always will.



Yup, it happens pretty much everywhere to some extent.
I used to be active on local tech site/forum but it was so bad there that it was like happening on a daily basis and even a moderator/staff member joined it and thats when I decided to just ditch that place and registered here instead. _'I mean being picked on cause I don't game on a high refresh rate monitor nor had a reputable gamer mouse or a keyboard..'

I would lie if I said that I never got into trouble with other users cause of such but I'm trying to ignore it as much as possible._


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## jboydgolfer (Mar 28, 2021)

AsRock said:


> Cannot say i seen it on here, maybe the posts get deleted before i see them ?.


i feel this would be a great post from a member, but not so great from staff, as it presents an arbitrary 'watch out or ill get ya' message.

maybe we have differing definitions of the word 'scourge' , i dunno,  im not one for pushing my beliefs on others


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 28, 2021)

Well, I agree the comment about "handing out infractions left, right and center" were unnecessary and detracted a bit from the main message. But the main message is still the main take away here, and lesson that needs to be learned.


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## BSim500 (Mar 28, 2021)

AsRock said:


> Cannot say i seen it on here, maybe the posts get deleted before i see them ?.


I saw it multiple times in one thread the other day relating to 16 vs 8GB VRAM sizes along the lines of _"Only Real Gamers (tm) like me will buy a 16GB GPU and play only a certain subset of future AAA games only at 4k and stay relevant as people"_. The fact that 97.5% of gamers don't game at 4k didn't even enter their heads to stop and think about...


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## AsRock (Mar 28, 2021)

BSim500 said:


> I saw it multiple times in one thread the other day relating to 16 vs 8GB VRAM sizes along the lines of _"Only Real Gamers (tm) like me will buy a 16GB GPU and play only a certain subset of future AAA games only at 4k and stay relevant as people"_. The fact that 97.5% of gamers don't game at 4k didn't even enter their heads to stop and think about...



In that case, a mod should of sent them a message to clear it up as it MIGHT of been the posters intention.


I have a infraction from it and it was all ok with the person who it was supposed to of offended.  A lot of shit gets taken way out of context and nothing can be taken as any thing other than bad.



jboydgolfer said:


> i feel this would be a great post from a member, but not so great from staff, as it presents an arbitrary 'watch out or ill get ya' message.
> 
> maybe we have differing definitions of the word 'scourge' , i dunno,  im not one for pushing my beliefs on others




Just history repeating,  new words for those who get offended easier, Goarge Carling comes to mind he did a piece on it.


But i will shut up now as some ones about to get offended by some thing i say.


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## natr0n (Mar 28, 2021)

When I work with slow/low end hardware; I say how can I make this better from where it is.

I never judge anyone on hardware every really.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 28, 2021)

I have several 144hz 1920 monitor's Several 8 gig cards a few 6 and 8 core systems no way do i consider myself elitist 
not when you consider literally all my kit comes to me second hand or 3/4 hand.
being a skinflint and ex hoarder i value all tech and always look for the cheap Bargin.

Unfortunatlly re the Current Electronics market S/h kit is now almost as expensive as when it was new and harder to find.


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## R-T-B (Mar 28, 2021)

jboydgolfer said:


> i feel this would be a great post from a member, but not so great from staff, as it presents an arbitrary 'watch out or ill get ya' message.
> 
> maybe we have differing definitions of the word 'scourge' , i dunno,  im not one for pushing my beliefs on others


When I was staff, I was reminded I could wear two hats.  My member hat and my staff hat.

I think clarification which this is coming from would be nice, but I still agree with the premise.


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## FireFox (Mar 28, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> I've seen people being ridiculed for having a 'below par' hardware set-up.


I don't know you but I've seen people being ridiculed for buying high end Hardware, that said it's not just one side but both


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> That is not the point here at all!


I think we need to get used to the fact that more than half the people feel they are above average.


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## the54thvoid (Mar 28, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> When I was staff, I was reminded I could wear two hats.  My member hat and my staff hat.
> 
> I think clarification which this is coming from would be nice, but I still agree with the premise.



No clarification needed. It was a member post. I'm still a member. But when I see things that are unfair, I have the capacity to hand out infractions. That being said, I know the general difference between 'banter' and offence, i.e. we're still allowed to be PCMasterRace (are we not?). It's tongue in cheek. Many PC's are lesser than a console.

I also don't want my post to be taken as anything other than a member post. And I certainly don't want finger pointing. All I'd like to see, as a member first (and mod second) is a little more consideration before shitposting.  

And to clarify the point it goes for both ends of spectrum. Tech is tech - so let's talk tech.


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## kruk (Mar 28, 2021)

It's clear that some companies actively promote such kind of elitism as this enables them to make more profit and keep the shareholders happy. With good competition and price wars this is harder to pull off, but with this years supply problems no such thing exists anymore. The gap between entry level and high end PCs has now become enormous and might never go back, further worsening the problem . Kind of sad, really ...


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## R-T-B (Mar 28, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I don't know you but I've seen people being ridiculed for buying high end Hardware, that said it's not just one side but both


I agree both should be considered for what they are:  basically bullying.


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

kruk said:


> It's clear that some companies actively promote such kind of elitism


My Honda is on its first clutch at over 200,000mi; that sort of performance tends to make me a bit of a Honda snob.


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## Splinterdog (Mar 28, 2021)

Reminds me of Harley riders who refuse to wave to the rest of us mere mortals.


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## GerKNG (Mar 28, 2021)

tbh i wouldn't even recommend any high end hardware in these days. (gets obsolete in a blink and costs as much as a decent used car)

i'd just laugh about people who attack others for not wasting 5-6 grand for a 3090 SLI build that will have lower FPS than a XX70 card in a few years...

and yes i own several 3070s, 3080s, a 3090, a 6900XT and tons of other cards (2080 Tis, 1080 Tis, all cards in between and high end CPUs from the last 10 Years) and i still HIGHLY recommend to NOT buy any of the high end stuff (especially not to "Feel better")


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## Zach_01 (Mar 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Devil's advocate: don't we need people who are willing to pay top dollar for the latest and greatest so it succeeds and becomes cheaper?
> 
> My house is full of old equipment that people dumped as no longer being hip.


Lower-end or entry level equipment/hardware mocking is the subject here.


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## freeagent (Mar 28, 2021)

A comment had been made to me about my current hardware paired with my GPU.. Honestly.. if I had a new GPU that is no guarantee that I would game more. @ 1080p my GPU is still ok.. ish. I bought about 15 games over the last year, and played them for just a few minutes. Right now I am more interested in tinkering with my system and reading then games. For me I was the only breadwinner in a family of four for the last 7 years, so I didn't have money for any toys lol.. But now I do and cant buy them without offering up one of my kids as trade. But! Like I said before, no hard feelings.. just in case you happen to see this.. it just is what it is these days. I don't judge, that's above my pay grade.


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## Fouquin (Mar 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> My Honda is on its first clutch at over 200,000mi; that sort of performance tends to make me a bit of a Honda snob.



And my Ford Ranger is on its first clutch at 218K miles even after I taught three of my friends to drive stick in that truck. But that really isn't the point. Nobody needs to be combative over brand names just because they've seen [brand 1] do better than [brand 2] in a single sample anecdote. Just talk about the mechanics and the tech, don't bash others over the head with your biases attempting to fit them into your clique.


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> Lower-end or entry level equipment/hardware mocking is the subject here.


Since we seem to be attacking them here I thought to maybe come to their defense; see both sides of the argument so to speak.



Fouquin said:


> don't bash others


But this thread is all about bashing the elitists...

Life is complicated.


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## erocker (Mar 28, 2021)

This isn't anything new. Good to see some are catching on I guess.


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## Fouquin (Mar 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> But this thread is all about bashing the elitists...



No, this thread is about not being a dick full stop.


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## maxfly (Mar 28, 2021)

Its about showing each other respect. Its not hard to do. Treat others the same way you would like to be treated. 
It has very little to do with hardware or tech talk imo. Its just common courtesy.


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## Palladium (Mar 28, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> tbh i wouldn't even recommend any high end hardware in these days. (gets obsolete in a blink and costs as much as a decent used car)
> 
> i'd just laugh about people who attack others for not wasting 5-6 grand for a 3090 SLI build that will have lower FPS than a XX70 card in a few years...
> 
> and yes i own several 3070s, 3080s, a 3090, a 6900XT and tons of other cards (2080 Tis, 1080 Tis, all cards in between and high end CPUs from the last 10 Years) and i still HIGHLY recommend to NOT buy any of the high end stuff (especially not to "Feel better")



I can also easily afford all those combined but I chose not to buy any, since the AAA games that needs those $$$ GPUs to run well are all borefests to me anyway.


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

And yet in some ways we need our elite, our

Flemings
Einsteins
Teslas

the talented ones, not the arrogant ones.


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## Selaya (Mar 28, 2021)

Elitism has as much in common with elite as oxygen with oxymoron ...
(sorry for the awful analogy.)


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

A most excellent point and the source of my confusion.


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## Zach_01 (Mar 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Since we seem to be attacking them here I thought to maybe come to their defense; see both sides of the argument so to speak.
> 
> 
> But this thread is all about bashing the elitists...
> ...


The misunderstanding or confusion if you prefer is this...

This thread is not about users who buy the expensive (most expensive or not). Its about some of them being snob of anything else lower than what they have.
Point of @Selaya post...

And just because the OP brought that up, and rest of us talking about them, its not necessarily about bashing anyone.
I think @the54thvoid was polite (and we should keep it like that) in OP and I believe the phrase

_"It's a disgrace. A despicable representation of the worst of ourselves."_

is a shake up towards those who do it, aiming for improvement. Any kind.
A potential change of mind is the best that could happen but just a stop to this kind of expression is also welcomed and sufficient.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 28, 2021)

@the54thvoid Thank you for this.

This hardware elitism burns me up as well. I’ve earned a few slaps on the hand for having words with these snobs who judge everything from what they can afford. Many are oblivious that all people aren’t on the same economic level.

Likewise, this hardware elitism also permeates any attempts to direct conversations to how trends in hardware affect the masses that are not on tech sites like this. People here need to remember that we are a minority. 

In turn, even among “techies”, those who can afford to buy the most expensive toys are an even bigger minority.


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## Deleted member 205776 (Mar 28, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> tbh i wouldn't even recommend any high end hardware in these days. (gets obsolete in a blink and costs as much as a decent used car)
> 
> i'd just laugh about people who attack others for not wasting 5-6 grand for a 3090 SLI build that will have lower FPS than a XX70 card in a few years...
> 
> and yes i own several 3070s, 3080s, a 3090, a 6900XT and tons of other cards (2080 Tis, 1080 Tis, all cards in between and high end CPUs from the last 10 Years) and i still HIGHLY recommend to NOT buy any of the high end stuff (especially not to "Feel better")


This is why I practically only buy xx70 cards, or the alternative from the competitor. I laughed this time when my 3070 is better than the previous generation $1200 flagship.


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## KainXS (Mar 28, 2021)

Years ago I remember on TPU this was a big thing but now this kind of thing should be dead. We are living in times where GPU prices have spiked to levels that I could not have even imagined even when this was happening then. For it to still be happening now with all thats going on, idiots insulting others for not being able to afford the newest hardware is ridiculous. In most cases you don't even need the higher end stuff. You can get away with running older hardware for years after if comes out so you don't really need new hardware either(I ran my 3770k for 6 years and it was still gaming fine).

I'm honestly suprised that there is still a lot of elitism going on with the insaneomax prices right now.


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## Atomic77 (Mar 28, 2021)

I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 28, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


You just keep being you. People will always have differences of opinion.  You’re here because you like tech just as much as everyone here.


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## Samiam66 (Mar 28, 2021)

Well placed words of wisdom  ...Being Humble is not a personality trait that you see
being used often here. There should be a section on this every new member must read before 
being able to post replys....

Sam


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## Devon68 (Mar 28, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart. But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


I get the opposite. Most of the members have been helpful and understanding when I had problems. There were some that did not agree, but that is to be expected. We live different lives and some can play with cooler toys than others but we all came here for one reason. And that is We love Tech (that should be on a T-shirt)


----------



## freeagent (Mar 28, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


No no.. its just when you came to a forum filled with people who build computers in their sleep and say its a waste of time without shedding any backstory then you might upset a few people.. Not this guy though. I was going to finance a Dell last year and stick it in my Meshify..

Pretty glad I didn't! 

Edit:

I just thought now had I did go through with it and I posted in the picture thread I would have been just a piece of meat


----------



## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


I feel the same way, as do many I suspect; things here can be quite caustic, but that beats us all agreeing to a version of reality that does not exist. Anyhow, I'm not at all sure that our purpose in life is to be liked.

Did you see trog100's signature?
"Ignore the truth.. follow the herd.. you will make more friends that way and life will be easier.."

Don't go out of your way not to be liked, but if that happens don't let it make you follow the crowd.


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 28, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> Just my two cents about some very disturbing recent trends


I appreciate the post but the trend is hardly new even for this web site.  Many of the current members and I have discussed this very issue.  If the community grows it will get more toxic - see toms hardware forum as the prime example from even a decade ago.


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## Shrek (Mar 28, 2021)

Jonny Guru was a site that lacked toxicity, but it seems to have died.


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## dgianstefani (Mar 28, 2021)

I think it's important to not confuse elitism with being objectively right. 

I appreciate and agree with the op statement, mostly, but it's also true that enthusiasts will often have very solid advice, based on experience, to pass onto newbies, which can be interpreted as elitism. 

Don't skimp on psu in your first build. Elitism? No. And you actually save money by not needing to buy a new psu every few years. 

Telling someone to change their build, spending more money on actual performance and less on things like fancy cpu aios with pretty rgb fans that perform the same or worse than high end air that's cheaper and more reliable isn't elitism, its just common sense. 

Telling someone to either get a proper maintainable and actually better performing custom loop or just stick with air, instead of wasting money on an aio isn't elitism, it's backed by logic. 

In the end we're all just monkeys who like to believe we're always right, and manufacturers and marketing dept. know that. However there are some monkeys that have more experience banging rocks together than others, and dismissing constructive criticism as elitism in a let's give everyone participation awards manner can be counter productive.


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Mar 28, 2021)

I don't really see any hardware elitism, unless I'm just blind to it.

Unless we're talking about the hard feedback that normally happens when someone posts a build list asking for advice. E.g. if they have specced a non-branded "400W" power supply to run a Ryzen 3600 and 1660Ti with, there will be comments about how garbage the power supply is and to get a real one. That kind of advice is difficult to accept but it's not unwarranted and it's definitely not elitism. I certainly don't like telling people that they need to spend MORE money on their rig.


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## chrcoluk (Mar 28, 2021)

100% Agree, its in consoles now as well, there is a band of people on gamefaqs mocking people who chose to buy a Series S instead of a Series X.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 28, 2021)

as hardware prices get higher there will be more and more people who will have to settle for less..

the divide between those who have to settle for less and those that dont is gonna get greater..

a warning is apt.. but it does work both ways..

trog


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 28, 2021)

Im curious is it elites to say 
Post how do i get x game running on x low end card
Reply its not possible just buy x other gpu


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## DemonicRyzen666 (Mar 29, 2021)

@the54thvoid I agree with everything you say​How ever I don't feel like Techpowerup is an "PC enthusiast community" anymore there is too much emphasis on* what games people are playing* and it's turning more turn at "pc gaming" not "Pc enthusiast"  
I always took the "PC master race" thing as sarcasm, many people take it too seriously. Consoles still have a propose, not everyone can afford a PC.

The elitisms is stuff like the craping people wanting to try things out too.


Isaac` said:


> Im curious is it elites to say
> Post how do i get x game running on x low end card
> Reply its not possible just buy x other gpu


^ see stuff like this too.
The best example I can give you mention the word mGPU for DX12 to anyone on here it's instant, *NO DON'T DO IT's BAD NO GAMES SUPPORT IT!.* 
enthusiast is defined by "a person who is highly interested in a particular activity or subject". I'm pretty sure Rise of the tomb raider supports mGPU and has at least raytracing for contact shadows to test with mGPU. It's in most of the reviews, yet to just skipped over. it would be great to talk about right now. Especially now with the talk about NVidia Driver over head vs AMD and DX11 vs DX12. 

I just seems like Techpowerup isn't staying true to self and is chasing the people instead of making it's own path now.


----------



## evernessince (Mar 29, 2021)

Sithaer said:


> And yea ppl who answer with the laughing emote in the tech purchase topic don't even worth my time, shows their maturity alright. _'seen this done by supposedly older users than me'_



I feel like the laughing emote under the like options is used 95% of the time to troll without having to post anything of substance and the remaining 5% for actually indicating that a post is funny.



jboydgolfer said:


> i feel this would be a great post from a member, but not so great from staff, as it presents an arbitrary 'watch out or ill get ya' message.
> 
> maybe we have differing definitions of the word 'scourge' , i dunno,  im not one for pushing my beliefs on others



I don't think it's arbitrary.  Putting people down for their hardware choices isn't constructive in any way shape or form.  This isn't a mod making up new rules out of the blue, they are simply informing people that they intend to enforce a specific kind of infraction more rigorously.


----------



## Caring1 (Mar 29, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> I don't really see any hardware elitism, unless I'm just blind to it.



Guy posts he's bought a Dell A.I.O. and he's happy, followed by a bunch of posts saying he could have built better for less or whinging that they aren't easy to upgrade.
FFS people let him be happy and recognise that's all HE needs.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 29, 2021)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> How ever I don't feel like Techpowerup is an "PC enthusiast community" anymore there is too much emphasis on* what games people are playing* and it's turning more turn at "pc gaming" not "Pc enthusiast"


What are you talking about? What Are You Playing Now is one thread in the games subforum. If anything, I see fewer game-related posts here of any kind than when I started over a decade ago.


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## n-ster (Mar 29, 2021)

Idk about now, but back when I was active, it was bang for your buck that I and everyone else tried to jam down people's throat  Any kind of brand loyalty was so harshly criticized, I think there was also a lack of letting people make decisions that don't make sense to you.

Overclocking an i7 920 D0 stepping bought from MicroCenter brought me so much joy, assembling a basic Athlon x4 system in an antec 300 for a business and surprising friends and family with how reliable assembled PC's by somebody who knows what he's doing versus prebuilt... Back then the price delta was huge and prebuilts were mostly shit xD

Anyways, inform but don't flame. Ignore people who insist they are right and ignoring all good advice. Accept that someone has the right to pair a 5950x with a GTX 1060 even though it's for gaming. If you hate a brand we don't want to know etc etc. It's not that hard is it?


----------



## bobbybluz (Mar 29, 2021)

Many years ago I could afford to buy literally anything I wanted. Then health issues arose and put a swift end to that. Next came being able to spend other peoples money and after several years that also came to an end when I retired. Now I'm on a fixed income and I get my kicks keeping my older PC stuff running as well as possible hustling on Craigslist and Ebay. COVID put the brakes on my small side repair income and the more time passes the less I miss it. 

I couldn't care less what the latest and greatest hardware is because either I can't afford it, don't really need it or know I'll be able to get it far cheaper a few years from now when it's stuff people are dumping literally for pennies on the dollar. I'm more impressed with things people build themselves and manage to keep running as opposed to those with more $$$ than hands-on skills. The Xeon forum here on TPU is far better than playing video games to me and it's the perfect example of hardcore enthusiasts getting the most from things the average PC user doesn't even know exist plus being able to play with CPU's that at one time were insanely expensive for next to nothing compared to new hardware prices today. I'm not a gamer, the PC itself is the real fun game to me.


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## r9 (Mar 29, 2021)

Personally I get a kick from making the most of a budget. What's so exciting about spending $4k ?!, you get a machine that maxes everything ... well ... daah. One don't have to game at ultra detail 4k 144hz to enjoy a game. And I can tell you this a lot of those elitist that try to shame others still live in their parents basement driving their parents 300k miles Civic.


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## dirtyferret (Mar 29, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Jonny Guru was a site that lacked toxicity, but it seems to have died.


Was also a niche site with a very small community.  Toxic people were quickly corrected.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 29, 2021)

Solaris17 said:


> Lol I hope he has no intention in the future of making sure he says "what hat he is wearing" when posting a topic. You take this staff shit way too seriously.


I probably did too...  which is probably why wizzard cooked up the odd analogy for my tiny frog brain.  Besides, I like hats.

/joke, won't press this further.  In seriousness the whole seperation of powers thing may've been more relevant to news writers.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 29, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> It's a disgrace. A dispicable representation of the worst of ourselves.


Psssssshhhhh.  Peasant.


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## Atomic77 (Mar 29, 2021)

In my humble opinion as a target of attack in these here forums feel that more monitoring needs to be done. I also agree that this elitism if it can even be called that needs to go.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 29, 2021)

I dispise pc elitest
thats why i dislike r/pcmr
i like the occastianly joke about pc is better then console
but i hate the thing that  their is no reason for console


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## moproblems99 (Mar 29, 2021)

Also, you spelled it wrong.  It is e133715m


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## Atomic77 (Mar 29, 2021)

Maybe people are too el33T to spell it that way. ever think of that.???


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## moproblems99 (Mar 29, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> Maybe people are too el33T to spell it that way. ever think of that.???


It was actually for the OP.  But I see with no quote, no one would ever know lol.  Sorry, drink responsibly folks.


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## Palladium (Mar 29, 2021)

r9 said:


> Personally I get a kick from making the most of a budget. What's so exciting about spending $4k ?!, you get a machine that maxes everything ... well ... daah. One don't have to game at ultra detail 4k 144hz to enjoy a game. And I can tell you this a lot of those elitist that try to shame others still live in their parents basement driving their parents 300k miles Civic.



That's inline with my own observations: It's usually the poor who are obsessed with luxury consumerism.

I know actual millionaires; they are thrifty and already had their egos satifisfied by their bank accounts. They don't need petty status symbols like PCs for reinforcement.

Also. judging the wealth of someone by the car they drive its a pretty bad take.


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## freeagent (Mar 29, 2021)

I worked for a millionaire, very well educated, owned beautiful properties, had nice things. Drove a 90s Tercel that had 360k on it and ran like a top.

Nicest fellow you would ever meet.


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## Atomic77 (Mar 29, 2021)

Hey the Honda Civic is a good car. My parents had one at one time.


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## Bones (Mar 29, 2021)

I'm of the mindset if it makes you happy or it's the best you can do that should be good enough for everyone else too.
But unfortunately there are some that have an E-Peen stuck up their ass and apparently not afraid to show it.

I've been there, making do with what I've got and was lucky to even have that, now it's different for me yet I haven't forgotten how it was.
Still have the old setup I was running an older AM3 dual core (Athlon II X270) in a sub-par mini-ATX board and it got the job done for a _very_ long time.

I also believe I know where this comes from and it's high time it gets the attention it deserves. I mean asking questions as to "Why" you got a pre-built instead of a DIY type build is one thing but you really can't question one's circumstances either since no matter what you have to say, it doesn't change a damn thing about it. If you're generous enough to offer higher-end items or even builds on your own dime, that's great but I seriously doubt that's gonna happen.
Not everyone has a tree with dollar bills for leaves out back - I sure don't but if you do, rake up a few for me and I won't complain if they are in a plastic lawn and garden bag when you send them.

So....
Those that want to bash, why not offer a few of the parts left over from your last build/setup, I mean you're not using them any more.... Right?
Not everyone can do upgrades on a regular basis or cycle, it's go with what you've got and make it work.

As for money, it's not always how much you've got but how you use it.


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## r9 (Mar 29, 2021)

Palladium said:


> That's inline with my own observations: It's usually the poor who are obsessed with luxury consumerism.
> 
> I know actual millionaires; they are thrifty and already had their egos satifisfied by their bank accounts. They don't need petty status symbols like PCs for reinforcement.
> 
> Also. judging the wealth of someone by the car they drive its a pretty bad take.


The car comment wasn't about judging wealth my point was investing your money into things that are more important in life. And even then not my place to judge what anyone should do with their money. Hell if 3090 makes you happy go for it but don't use it put down others.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Devil's advocate: don't we need people who are willing to pay top dollar for the latest and greatest so it succeeds and becomes cheaper?


My 2 cents? You've got a point. However, 54thVoid's point was the ridicule, which is not ok. No one should be insulted or harassed for having a system that is not super powerful or even current tech. We are a community made up of users in a wide variety of socioeconomic situations. As a community, it is our place to welcome all, to render input and assistance where it is needed. 

Therefore, if some users do not understand or accept the value of making tech last as long as the user needs it to, they should just keep their harsh and elitists statements to themselves rather than making people feel bad about their tech, which has the effect of making them feel unwelcome. That is not ok.


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## r9 (Mar 29, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


If you think tpu is bad





dorsetknob said:


> I have several 144hz 1920 monitor's Several 8 gig cards a few 6 and 8 core systems no way do i consider myself elitist
> not when you consider literally all my kit comes to me second hand or 3/4 hand.
> being a skinflint and ex hoarder i value all tech and always look for the cheap Bargin.
> 
> Unfortunatlly re the Current Electronics market S/h kit is now almost as expensive as when it was new and harder to find.


Yep that's exactly what a pc elitist would say.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> Whatever that budget, TPU should offer support. Not condemnation. Certainly not mockery.


100% Agree!


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## r9 (Mar 29, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


What do you expect you don't even have a discrete GPU. < sarcasm



chrcoluk said:


> 100% Agree, its in consoles now as well, there is a band of people on gamefaqs mocking people who chose to buy a Series S instead of a Series X.


How about people dissing consoles in general ... Only 30 fps blah blah balh. I've never been into consoles but I can't dispute the value of getting xbox one x for $160 for my son. Pair that thing with game pass and off you go.


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## zenlaserman (Mar 29, 2021)

Atomic77 said:


> I get the feeling that I am not liked on this forum. It seems like every time I say something I get ripped apart.  But I do what I do and I believe in my tech as everything I have done has worked for me to date.


The trick is to not read most of the responses to your own rant/may-cause-controversy posts unless you feel like a protracted debate/internet fight.  We people on the internet can nitpick and squabble over technicalities til coronavirii stop mutating, but in the end all it does is satiate some stupid desire to argue.  I mean, we've been doing this shit since baud modems, and like baud modems, it all gets old and not much is accomplished for your time.  IMHO, in today's society, feelings are getting too important, it seems people are just ready to get mad, too.  Trolls abound, fishing for validation of their victim status.  Alas, the insecure always outnumber the secure.



rtwjunkie said:


> You just keep being you. People will always have differences of opinion.  You’re here because you like tech just as much as everyone here.


You're one of the members on this forum I've read hundreds and hundreds of posts of, all goes back to me liking your name lol.  I'm also a longtime TW junkie (I still play Shogun 1, modded ofc).  Anyway, you've almost always been nice to folks and your viewpoints are those of a rational, thinking human being.  I usually find myself agreeing with what you say.  Not trying to cuddle or anything, but forums need more regulars like you.  You post often, yet you are not an overposter.  That, IMHO, is very hard to accomplish.  There's some regulars in this forum I'd love to get into a barfight with and maybe pull off an arm, but I'd def buy you a drink.

-------------

Now, hardware elitism.  This is some real shit, and it's always flowing in the undercurrents of every forum driven by hardware of any sort, occasionally breaching the surface like volcanic activity.  I know this, because I was once one of those people in the early aughts, when I was younger and had more time to argue on the interweb.  Talking shit like a fool.  I started with automotive and ended with PC hardware.  It's pervasive in the minds of some to the point where the post of one with nice PC hardware (or engine, car, truck etc) on profile will be taken better than that of one with older hardware (or unironic hoopty), even if the "peasant"s post is objectively more useful.  I didn't know this mindset actually existed until 2006 when I finally joined the high-end on PC for the first time with Conroe.  All of a sudden, my posts got more attention on sites where I had my gear listed, and yeah, I was shitting on those with Netburst and laughing at those that thought their K8 X2 were still the bee's knees.  Then, 2 years later, I was catching shit for still being on Kentsfield instead of Bloomsfield i7 and beyond.  I quit listing my PC hardware on tech site profiles and caring what people thought of my old shit that still worked _great_ for what I needed to do.  I'm used to it, I only drive cars and trucks that were built before airbags, still do.  When you really look at it, it's just overkill for your _needs_.

Now, there's always been people who make fun of others for their modest circumstances. And well, buying shit you don't need drives the economy.  But there happens to be a very large percentage of regulars on forums who do precisely that - buying the latest and greatest so they can proudly wave the flag in the next "owner's" thread and dispense their magnanimous wisdom upon the plebs.  That's great, good for you for making it, but it's not going to last, and it really doesn't matter.  It's all rather petty, after all in the end.  And, well, we're all literally full of shit.  Be humble.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

r9 said:


> What do you expect you don't even have a discrete GPU.


And this is the kind of comment that 54thVoid was talking about and people very much need to keep to themselves.

@Atomic77
If your PC meets your needs and you're happy with it, carry on. You're system is fine.


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## QuietBob (Mar 29, 2021)

zenlaserman said:


> Trolls abound, fishing for validation of their victim status. Alas, the insecure always outnumber the secure.


You've hit the nail right on the head with this one. Playing the victim or flaunting the latest and greatest have one thing in common. Insecurity.


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## Kissamies (Mar 29, 2021)

Totally agree with OP. I have to admit that I think that my rig is a budget rig (AMD 3600/16GB/1080 Ti), it still packs quite a punch and I'm more than happy with this.

And you just don't have always to crank the graphics up, I can play with lower details as long a game doesn't look bad and it runs fine.


----------



## Deleted member 205776 (Mar 29, 2021)

Chloe Price said:


> Totally agree with OP. I have to admit that I think that my rig is a budget rig (AMD 3600/16GB/1080 Ti), it still packs quite a punch and I'm more than happy with this.
> 
> And you just don't have always to crank the graphics up, I can play with lower details as long a game doesn't look bad and it runs fine.


Considering I used to be on a GT 610 and Pentium G620 all my life, the rig I have now is more than enough and am very grateful to even have it.


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 29, 2021)

Well, I really hate to be _that guy_ with controversial or counter-intuitive opinions, but here are few points that are on completely oppose end of the spectrum.
1) Most of the threads where people get bashed for having low-end hardware usually start with OPs unrealistic expectations of said hardware.
E.g. "why can't I play Crysis 3 on my 9600GT?" or "why is Youtube being stupid on GMA x4500?", "How can I make my 2005 CompaQ run faster?".
2) There are many situations where getting new hardware is unavoidable. Usually the conflict arises when OP still firmly believes that a complete upgrade is unnecessary, or makes an excuse of "having no access" to cheap hardware in his country, when in fact he or she does (there were many threads on TPU, in which a person was too lazy to look for it, or too stubborn to admit his mistake that he/she just sticks with the narrative). Some of my customers also like sob stories, thinking that somehow it would change the essence of the problem and the resulting outcome. Though, most stories fall apart as soon as they pull out their shiny iPhone XR to write down my contact info.
3) Using older hardware for as long as it lasts is a good thing, as long as it serves its purpose. Though, in most such cases people buy hardware (I mean buying today, not 10 years ago) with only one thought in mind - lowest possible price. Basically, instead of making considerations before purchase, they get the cheapest stuff and then offload solving all nuances on random strangers from the internet. 

All three points are too familiar to me, because I run a tiny workshop in a not-so-financially-or-politically-stable country. I have to deal with this on a daily basis, and some people just need a blunt reality check. This includes even my technically educated but still ridiculously stupid partner, who needs to get slapped every time he thinks an SSD and moar RAM will solve any issue.
Every once in awhile I get customers who'd bring a dust-ridded Core2Duo desktop  which at the time of its creation was built out of cheapest possible parts, and people don't understand that recapping an old LGA775 board costs about the same as getting a SandyBridge combo, or that their old 17" 4:3 monitor costs less than a single replacement capacitor in its PSU. Yes, there are enthusiasts that just like to tinker with old hardware, but there are also lots of less-than-intelligent scrooges that firmly believe that they can buy a random $50 PC and then just ask around for "magic sauce" that will make it run like modern PC. I lost count of how many times, especially since pandemic started, some random douche would pop into my workshop with beat-up Core2Duo or worse - single-core Sempron PC that's been stewing in a basement for the past 10 years with nasty wererats and evil cucarachas, and then asks "Well, can't you just pop-in some more RAM and do your computer ju-ju, so my kids could watch youtube and play minecraft?". My response to that is never pretty and in some stubborn cases contains lots of explicit words, but in 99% of cases  it works and within an hour or two a person leaves with a PC that will last another 5-6 years and it's not a fire hazard. The remaining 1% leave, still firmly believing that their trash buckets still have "untapped potential" and I'm yet another greedy bastard that tries to con him/her out of hard earned cash. Yes... evil me...   






As far as I know, we don't have "hardware elitists" amongst regular TPU members. If anything, this community teaches newcomers to like and be enthusiastic about old hardware.


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## R0H1T (Mar 29, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Elitism is a bad attitude in ALL aspects of life.


A huge part of the reason *IMO* humanity is heading to a hellhole, well you could argue we're already in it! The other reason being greed/hoarding


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## Mussels (Mar 29, 2021)

I got harassed on another website because as a 3090 owner i'm just a richboy using dads wallet who doesnt appreciate hardware


nevermind that i'm approaching 40 and worked for it -.-

People just suck overall, be it attacking people with less than them, defending bad products just because they bought them too, or echoing something with zero understanding of what it really means (bottleneck! CPU matters less at high res so game at 4k on a sempron!)


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Mar 29, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> Every once in awhile I get customers who'd bring a dust-ridded Core2Duo desktop  which at the time of its creation was built out of cheapest possible parts, and people don't understand that recapping an old LGA775 board costs about the same as getting a SandyBridge combo, or that their old 17" 4:3 monitor costs less than a single replacement capacitor in its PSU. Yes, there are enthusiasts that just like to tinker with old hardware, but there are also lots of less-than-intelligent scrooges that firmly believe that they can buy a random $50 PC and then just ask around for "magic sauce" that will make it run like modern PC. I lost count of how many times, especially since pandemic started, some random douche would pop into my workshop with beat-up Core2Duo or worse - single-core Sempron PC that's been stewing in a basement for the past 10 years with nasty wererats and evil cucarachas, and then asks "Well, can't you just pop-in some more RAM and do your computer ju-ju, so my kids could watch youtube and play minecraft?". My response to that is never pretty and in some stubborn cases contains lots of explicit words, but in 99% of cases  it works and within an hour or two a person leaves with a PC that will last another 5-6 years and it's not a fire hazard. The remaining 1% leave, still firmly believing that their trash buckets still have "untapped potential" and I'm yet another greedy bastard that tries to con him/her out of hard earned cash. Yes... evil me...



Those are the same customers who bring their car to the workshop with a split right through the engine block and rats nest wiring harness and saying "just fix the engine light, don't upsell me".

Not that it's dumb, really, because it's acceptable to ask for something unintelligent. But when they get mad and throw a hissy fit when told by a professional that it's a write-off? That's the epitome of _DUMB_.


----------



## _JP_ (Mar 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> People just suck overall, be it attacking people with less than them, defending bad products just because they bought them too, or echoing something with zero understanding of what it really means (bottleneck! CPU matters less at high res so game at 4k on a sempron!)


Right, so the opposite of that would be, no matter the hardware you have, share the (informed & experienced/referenced) knowledge you have on it!
That is welcome.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 29, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Smart buying isn't to be mocked. And whoever is pleased with 1080P maxed out or even medium with 60FPS or above and has no intention on overspending is just a sensible consumer. Elitism is a bad attitude in ALL aspects of life.



This 1000x This.

The only people I mock with regards to purchases are those who are clearly more interested in epeening with it than actually doing something with it. Anywhere else I think the value of good advice is exactly what you're saying: Buy Smart. Hardware goes old fast. Spending too big on it is usually a mistake unless you know it's going to last, or you're going to need every drop of performance you can get.

OTOH if you WANT to spend big, by all means... but with great spending comes great responsibility to not become an asshole, as I think this topic clearly underlines  Somehow there is some correlation there between money and asshole-factor.



silentbogo said:


> Well, I really hate to be _that guy_ with controversial or counter-intuitive opinions, but here are few points that are on completely oppose end of the spectrum.
> 1) Most of the threads where people get bashed for having low-end hardware usually start with OPs unrealistic expectations of said hardware.
> E.g. "why can't I play Crysis 3 on my 9600GT?" or "why is Youtube being stupid on GMA x4500?", "How can I make my 2005 CompaQ run faster?".
> 2) There are many situations where getting new hardware is unavoidable. Usually the conflict arises when OP still firmly believes that a complete upgrade is unnecessary, or makes an excuse of "having no access" to cheap hardware in his country, when in fact he or she does (there were many threads on TPU, in which a person was too lazy to look for it, or too stubborn to admit his mistake that he/she just sticks with the narrative). Some of my customers also like sob stories, thinking that somehow it would change the essence of the problem and the resulting outcome. Though, most stories fall apart as soon as they pull out their shiny iPhone XR to write down my contact info.
> ...



Another nail on the head. This is the other end of the spectrum. There are many instances and examples where 'being cheap' is in fact much more expensive in the long run and a single solid investment can not only last longer but also work better doing so. Many times this applies to improving an aged system. Old hardware isn't always quite so cheap to fix.


----------



## r9 (Mar 29, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> And this is the kind of comment that 54thVoid was talking about and people very much needs to keep to themselves.
> 
> @Atomic77
> If your PC meets your needs and you're happy with it, carry on. You're system is fine.





lexluthermiester said:


> And this is the kind of comment that 54thVoid was talking about and people very much need to keep to themselves.
> 
> @Atomic77
> If your PC meets your needs and you're happy with it, carry on. You're system is fine.


I thought was obvious that was sarcasm ... oh well.


----------



## Bones (Mar 29, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> Those are the same customers who bring their car to the workshop with a split right through the engine block and rats nest wiring harness and saying "*just fix the engine light*, don't upsell me".
> 
> Not that it's dumb, really, because it's acceptable to ask for something unintelligent. But when they get mad and throw a hissy fit when told by a professional that it's a write-off? That's the epitome of _DUMB_.


In some cases you really have to be careful with what you ask for. 
In this instance, "Fixing the engine light" can take on the meaning of anything from actually fixing the reason why it's coming on to removing the engine light bulb so you never see it again.


----------



## sepheronx (Mar 29, 2021)

Much needed to be said.  I enjoy playing around with a tight budget and getting the cheaper goods.  I only have splurged recently myself (6800xt) when the last time I purchased such a GPU was never.

Some people just feel the need to be rude for no apparent reason.



Mussels said:


> I got harassed on another website because as a 3090 owner i'm just a richboy using dads wallet who doesnt appreciate hardware
> 
> 
> nevermind that i'm approaching 40 and worked for it -.-
> ...


Listen rich boy.....  Buy me a 3090 as well.  Please get Dads credit card.


----------



## Toothless (Mar 29, 2021)

I think the worst comes out when it's either people bricking cards by flashing for dumb/no reasons or people "confidently incorrect" on things. 

If you know what you're doing, know the risks, and have everything triple checked when flashing, then cool, go for it. But I'd you're trying to flash a 3080 vbios on a 3070 because "moar fps" and have no clue about it, then yeah you're gonna get a stern talking to.

Then there's people that won't listen to anyone and are spreading misinformation that can be dangerous to people new to the world of tech. That stuff isn't right.


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> I got harassed on another website because as a 3090 owner i'm just a richboy using dads wallet who doesnt appreciate hardware



Did the harasser post with an Austrian accent?


----------



## DrCR (Mar 29, 2021)

As a Tech Report refugee, to speak candidly, I've been frequently amazed at how much ad hominem was permitted on this forum.

I guess I'm sort of an old guy at this point, but way too many people post stuff that might be permitted on social media, but should totally require mod action in a moderated forum. So if your post is a shot across the bow that this forum will have increased moderation, I'm all for it.



the54thvoid said:


> Just my two cents about some very disturbing recent trends. As a mod. If I see it happening, I'll just start handing out infractions left, right and centre.


----------



## 64K (Mar 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> I got harassed on another website because as a 3090 owner i'm just a richboy using dads wallet who doesnt appreciate hardware
> 
> 
> nevermind that i'm approaching 40 and worked for it -.-
> ...



They were probably just jealous.


----------



## freeagent (Mar 29, 2021)

64K said:


> They were probably just jealous.


Id be jealous too, shortage or not


----------



## Night (Mar 29, 2021)

I may be annoyed when I receive some PCs that are definitely lower end (speaking of DDR2, single core and dual core CPUs, etc..), it can generally be a pain to work with. It's mostly friends or collegues asking 'can you make this run Word?', but then I do realize that is what's available and affordable for some people, and then I end up doing my best with testing a few more operating systems to increase overall speed of the system, or minimal upgrades such as cheaper SSDs or RAM.
As far as topic goes, karma is a bitch, you know.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 29, 2021)

Hmmm, could have sworn I posted this yesterday. Were some posts removed?  

Just reading up on the difference between an elitist and a snob. It seems the elite are indeed members of a group that is of a higher class - as in better quality, higher intellect, wealthier, more educated and/or skilled. The elite can be objects too. For example, a Rolls Royce, Rolex watch, or a McIntosh audio amplifier would be considered elite. While a snob is a person who takes [often great] efforts to make sure everyone knows (or believes) the snob is a member of some elite group! 



Mussels said:


> I got harassed...


Not sure harassed is the right word but I have been accused of not being a computer enthusiast on several occasions for all sorts of reasons that make no sense to me. For example, because I am not a hard-core gamer, I can't be a computer enthusiast. Or because my CPU is not a "K" model. Or because I don't over-clock or because I cool with air instead of liquid. Most recently it was because I stated I'm not into RGB lighting. Never mind the fact I've been into computers since the early 70s when I literally stood inside a NORAD mainframe consisting of more than 67,000 vacuum tube diodes. Or when I started overclocking, it involved cutting motherboard traces and soldering in jumpers. But then that's when 32KB of RAM was "_more than you will ever need!_" Oh well. 



DrCR said:


> I've always been amazed at how much ad hominem was permitted on this forum.


^^^THIS^^^ Too often, it seems, if you post a different opinion or position, it is seen as a personal attack or disparagement instead of simply debating the facts or posing a different viewpoint. 

Part of the problem, I believe, is forum posts don't allow readers to see the facial expressions and body language, or hear the tone-of-voice of the writer. These are critical elements of communication used all the time in face-to-face conversations that ensure the message sent is the message received. In forum posts, unless clearly stated, the message received can easily be misinterpreted. For example, unless the writer clearly states a sarcastic comment is meant as a joke with a   or a "LOL", it could easily be misinterpreted as an affront.  

Leading me to this:


R-T-B said:


> When I was staff, I was reminded I could wear two hats. My member hat and my staff hat.
> 
> I think clarification which this is coming from would be nice, but I still agree with the premise.





the54thvoid said:


> No clarification needed. It was a member post. I'm still a member. But when I see things that are unfair, I have the capacity to hand out infractions. That being said, I know the general difference between 'banter' and offence, i.e. we're still allowed to be PCMasterRace (are we not?). It's tongue in cheek. Many PC's are lesser than a console.
> 
> I also don't want my post to be taken as anything other than a member post.


RTB is right.

You are absolutely right that you are a member too, and certainly are entitled to post as such. The problem is, you are wearing the Moderator/Staff Member badge. So unless you take that badge off, or at least state that you are speaking as a member, you are representing the site, and speaking as a member of the site. 

It does not matter that in your mind, you know you are speaking as a member. But we don't know that and can only go by what you say. 

However, you never stated you were speaking as a member. And in fact, you specifically stated, "_As a mod_" you will not hesitate to "_start handing out infractions left, right and centre._" Therefore, it is impossible that your post should "_be taken as anything other than a member post_". You made it clear, it is not. 

This would be like a cop giving advice to a bunch of people saying, "_ignore my uniform, badge and gun_", but then adds, "_if you don't heed my advice, I'll arrest you_". Or the general talking to the brand new 2nd lieutenant who says "_ignore my rank_" while displaying his stars in his face. No way is that lieutenant going to forget it is "The General" talking. 

I'm on the staff at a couple other sites so I've seen and experienced both sides of the fence. If you don't want to be seen as a member of the staff, you have to take the badge off. I might suggest creating another username and posting with that. I know multiple username are generally frowned upon, but you might be surprised at how different some of the responses to your posts will be. 

Again, as I said way above, your message was well said (and needed IMO). But clearly, it is a message coming from a TPU Moderator.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

Chloe Price said:


> I have to admit that I think that my rig is a budget rig (AMD 3600/16GB/1080 Ti)


That's not a budget PC, that would nicely fit into what I classify as upper mid-range. Just saying.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 29, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Not sure harassed is the right word


You're right, he probably deserved it.


----------



## Dragokar (Mar 29, 2021)

I would like to contribute, but I still have to wait another 11 months and some postings.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

r9 said:


> I thought was obvious that was sarcasm ... oh well.


Nope. It's text. No vocal inflection or tone of voice is possible, therefore unless you use specific vocabulary or a marker( /s ), nothing is obvious.


----------



## Vario (Mar 29, 2021)

There's a facet of nerd culture that is elitist, materialist, product oriented, with one's personal identity and value defined by one's possessions.  I see it a lot on Reddit.


----------



## r9 (Mar 29, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nope. It's text. No vocal inflection or tone of voice is possible, therefore unless you use specific vocabulary or a marker( /s ), nothing is obvious.



Suggesting to somebody anti-elitist thread  that the reason why people don't like him is due to his system specs wasn't clear to you. 
Let me guess a lot of times it's challenging fpr you getting past the I'm not a robot checks ?  lol


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 29, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> As far as I know, we don't have "hardware elitists" amongst regular TPU members. If anything, this community teaches newcomers to like and be enthusiastic about old hardware.


No, we really do. If you’re not seeing it it’s because you choose not to.


----------



## DemonicRyzen666 (Mar 29, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Not sure harassed is the right word but I have been accused of not being a computer enthusiast on several occasions for all sorts of reasons that make no sense to me. For example, because* I am not a hard-core gamer, I can't be a computer enthusiast.* Or because my CPU is not a "K" model. Or because I don't over-clock or because I cool with air instead of liquid. Most recently it was because I stated I'm not into RGB lighting. Never mind the fact I've been into computers since the early 70s when I literally stood inside a NORAD mainframe consisting of more than 67,000 vacuum tube diodes. Or when I started overclocking, it involved cutting motherboard traces and soldering in jumpers. But then that's when 32KB of RAM was "_more than you will ever need!_" Oh well.



I have question for you, Do you feel like some of that has crept into reviews on Techpowerup here ?

I mean the more I read Techpowerup reviews, and the more it seems like it's skewed toward being a hardcore game vs being an enthusiast. The list of games used are always selected as most popular games played to be used. For a long time here on Techpowerup,_ Crysis was listed on reviews and it wasn't a popular game_. I can understand it's hard to find a game like that. Moving games used  to a new API like DX12 is nice too though.


----------



## freeagent (Mar 29, 2021)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> I have question for you, Do you feel like some of that has crept into reviews on Techpowerup here ?
> 
> I mean the more I read Techpowerup reviews, and the more it seems like it's skewed toward being a hardcore game vs being an enthusiast. The list of games used are always selected as most popular games played to be used. For a long time here on Techpowerup,_ Crysis was listed on reviews and it wasn't a popular game_. I can understand it's hard to find a game like that. Moving games used  to a new API like DX12 is nice too though.


That's because Gaming has become the primary use for most users home computers. You can still be an enthusiast and not game often. I love chasing numbers and so do thousands of others.. The primary use of my rig is looking at this and a few other websites. I pass out resumes, have all my music and pictures here.. I don't abuse my hardware, but I like to see what she can do and how she compares to other like minded individuals setups. This is my OCD box, something I can tinker with and do whatever I want to do, because its my toy. My last computer was about 8 years old, and the one before that is 2 years older, and they all serve the same purpose to me. This one just happens to do it a lot quicker than the others while hugging a polar bear at the same time.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

Vario said:


> There's a facet of nerd culture that is elitist, materialist, product oriented, with one's personal identity and value defined by one's possessions.  I see it a lot on Reddit.


Kinda sad really. Allowing one's sense of personal worth to be tied to an object is a sign of a deeper problem.



r9 said:


> Suggesting to somebody anti-elitist thread that the reason why people don't like him is due to his system specs wasn't clear to you.


Chose your vocabulary better and the sarcasm you claim was intended would be more clear. The way you made your statement, with the words and order of those words, made it seem like you were doing exactly what was being discussed in the OP.


r9 said:


> Let me guess a lot of times it's challenging fpr you getting past the I'm not a robot checks ? lol


And this unneeded and unprovoked personal insult suggests strongly that you were actually being a jerk and you're just trying to cover it up now. Very sad.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 29, 2021)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> I have question for you, Do you feel like some of that has crept into reviews on Techpowerup here ?
> 
> I mean the more I read Techpowerup reviews, and the more it seems like it's skewed toward being a hardcore game vs being an enthusiast.


I find it interesting that your question even implies there is a difference between hardcore gamers and being an enthusiast. That is just not so. 

Even a hardcore gamer does not necessarily imply that person is a computer or hardware enthusiast. He or she may just love playing games. They could care less about the hardware - except that it better work. 

Does a race car "driver" have to love cars? Or does he just have to love driving and racing? Or maybe he just wants to win.  Does a mechanic have to love driving? Nope. 

I'm a formally trained and certified electronics technician. I love electronics hardware. I hate computer programming.  My first true love in electronics repair (as a hobby) was with audiophile quality audio reproduction equipment (repairing amps, pre-amps, tuners, and speakers). But professionally (for the first 15 years of my career in electronics), I was a certified air traffic control radio communications systems technician. My first job involving computers was to interface a LF radio system with a NORAD mainframe. I've built over 500 computers. As for gaming, I am a Freecell and Spider Solitaire addict. 

But I don't do hard core gaming. So does that mean I am not a computer enthusiast? 

As for TPU reviews, I note most of the components marketed these days are marketed as "gaming" components. And I note gaming is a pretty good way to measure hardware's performance. 

Using cars again as an analogy - I note even plain ol' passenger car and pickup truck specifications state their 0 - 60MPH times. 



freeagent said:


> That's because Gaming has become the primary use for most users home computers.


Bull feathers! Not even close. Gaming is a small segment of the entire market. But it is an important segment because when it comes to the more profitable, high-end computers and computer components, gamers are the ones buying them. And many gamers are hardware enthusiasts too. 

But...


freeagent said:


> You can still be an enthusiast and not game.


Exactly! And you can be a gamer and not be an enthusiast.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Exactly! And you can be a gamer and not be an enthusiast.


This, yes!


----------



## freeagent (Mar 29, 2021)

Well yeah that's what I meant.. 

As for bull feathers, I suppose I meant a bunch of people that come here and sites like here.. not the entire segment.. whatever 

It seems people just play games to stream for people to watch them play games when they could be playing a game too? makes no sense to me. I have no desire to sit there and watch someone play a game. But my kids have no problem with it. I think Twitch was better as Justin. TV but that's probably just me


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 29, 2021)

freeagent said:


> It seems people just play games to stream for people to watch them play games when they could be playing a game too? makes no sense to me.


Not sure I understand that either. However, I do like to watch a good football or basketball game, or a golf tournament, or the Olympics. So maybe that's kinda sorta the same thing.


----------



## Gab (Mar 29, 2021)

Personally, I love all hardware, and mounting pc's relaxes me (most of times). Old and new. I don't like to trash anything, unless it doesn't work. I see an old computer in the trash and I rescue it. I try to give it a second life (more RAM, a SSD ...). I try to fix it. And then, sometimes, I give it to people that can't buy a computer for working/studying. Only I ask that in case it doesn't work, do not throw it away and return it to me to trying fixing it.


----------



## John Naylor (Mar 29, 2021)

Yes, there is a lot of this .... it really makes no sense to buy / build a tool that is more capable then you need.

You don't need more cores if you have no apps that require or can even use more cores.
You don't need a smaller die size because if it doesn't run your apps better.
You don't need more VRAM because a utility said that X GB of VRAM has been "allocated"
You don't need more than a $150 CPU to run games ... at any resolution

You do not really benefit from doing anything faster if you are the bottleneck or if you are doing something else (multitasking).  I had an employee assistant and part of his job was to to cost effective analysis of various construction option ... like better R values for windows versus increased cost .... and paving alternatives, looking at more expensive materials over useful lives. comparing with other solutions.   So when he asked for an SSD to make him more efficient, I asked that he do a cost benefit analysis.  So he took the seconds his machine would boot faster x 365 days x his salary and compared it against the cost of an SSD.

I reviewed it and ... he doesn't work 365 days, he works 220...after weekends, holidays, sick, personal and vacation removed.   And he didn't include the downtime to reinstall OS and applications.  In the end using a 4 year life, it was not cost effective.  He came back with benchmarks for MS office, saying it was x % faster.... but that's a script of 100+ actions, and a user can't input that fast.   Look even here at SSD tests, for the most part application performance is not tested... installation is.... something done once every 4 years.  Outside of a production shop for audio, photo, video work or some scientific engineering applications, it's hard to make a case for an SSD.  I have heard backups use as an example... but as they happen at 3 am who cares.

But the big thing about the employees failure to make a case was this.   he';d arrive in the oiffice and switch on PC. tale off hs jacket, walk around and say Good Morning to everyone, chat with one of the gals about the radio program they istened to .. ask everyone if they wanted cofee ... make a pot.... and arrive at his desk 10- 15 or more minutes later.  Then he'd drink his coffee with the bagel he brought in while listening to phone messages.  He was not a very productive employee.   But every employee in the building started off their day listening to phone messages while their PC booted.  Getting it done in 15 seconds instead od 16 or 21 seconds had 0 impact on productivity.   We install an SSD and a SSHD on every build with OS on both .... change the boot order after a few weeks after a new box is built .... no one ever notices.

So those messages saying "Oh your problem is you don't have an SSD, installing one will change your life .... To me if you can't notice that you are booting off an SSHD instead of the SSD you booted off yesterday ... no, it's not life changing.  Neither is ...

... a 10400F versus a 10900KF
... an 8GB card versus an 4 GB card at 1080p
... an 8GB card versus an 6 GB card at 1440p

You just can't show an observable difference in the user experience for a human to notice.... unless:

...  you are using applications that only a small % of PC users have installed
... Upu are mesuting things that are dobe very, very infrequently.

A homeowner doesn't need a compressor and air-nailer to hang pictures on the wall or replace a broken picket on a fence.


----------



## EsaT (Mar 29, 2021)

kruk said:


> It's clear that some companies actively promote such kind of elitism as this enables them to make more profit and keep the shareholders happy.


That pumping up of hype and prices with what ever fashion and fancy named gaming brands is indeed bad for PC markets as whole.
Good example is Asus Strix branding in motherboards.
Lots of people see it as some kind requirement for having good PC, despite most of the time clearly cheaper board being perfectly good for the job.
Leading to buyers spending money on something with no actual real world "ROI"...
Possibly in place of using difference to something else, where it could give actual real world usage value.

In storage Samsung SSDs are also on similar pedestal.
Sure they're good when looking only them alone.
But the fact is that for huge majority of users what ever differences there exist between drives (of same tech level) are meaningless and focus should be in capacity per price.

Similar things in CPU coolers and fans...




KainXS said:


> We are living in times where GPU prices have spiked to levels that I could not have even imagined even when this was happening then. For it to still be happening now with all thats going on, idiots insulting others for not being able to afford the newest hardware is ridiculous.


Indeed.
While I could myself afford those, there's simply nothing to defend in current prices of GPUs.

And if some person insists others should just accept paying those prices or get insulted...
Well, I would consider that person to have back skin itching for old fashioned manner education called corporal punishment.
(which at least "installed" some respect or fear of rule breaking penalty as spinal reflex)




Bill_Bright said:


> Not sure harassed is the right word but I have been accused of not being a computer enthusiast on several occasions for all sorts of reasons that make no sense to me. For example, because I am not a hard-core gamer, I can't be a computer enthusiast. Or because my CPU is not a "K" model. Or because I don't over-clock or because I cool with air instead of liquid. Most recently it was because I stated I'm not into RGB lighting.


If not wanting to play latest in fashion/big marketing games, or especially not wanting RGB somehow supposedly excludes from being PC enthusiast according to some, those people have back skin itching for treatment...

I sure enjoyed overclocking E0 Q9550 fair 30% (while undervolted) and considerer it as major part of the hobby at time.
But overclocking doesn't even give anymore significant performance increase/more longevity as good PC.
Nowadays biggest difference manual overclocking would make is in max power consumption/heat output.

And while water is excellent for absorpting heat from short load spikes, in continuous cooling per noise average liquid cooler sold using fashion just isn't better than high end heatpipe cooler.

And RGB...
While I certainly understand and accept if someone must have it and consider controlled use as last touch often even stylish, that's no requirement for anything.


----------



## jjnissanpatfan (Mar 29, 2021)

John Naylor said:


> Yes, there is a lot of this .... it really makes no sense to buy / build a tool that is more capable then you need.
> 
> You don't need more cores if you have no apps that require or can even use more cores.
> You don't need a smaller die size because if it doesn't run your apps better.
> ...


So everybody should drive a corolla? There are so many variables you can add to you problems...and every single person will feel different in some way.  Just offer good advice, try to help..maybe learn. That is why I come here....not to be personal and as humans we should all have thick skin, patience and understanding. I know the personal part is tough being human also...its what we do.


----------



## Mussels (Mar 29, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Not sure harassed is the right word but I have been accused of not being a computer enthusiast on several occasions for all sorts of reasons that make no sense to me. For example, because I am not a hard-core gamer, I can't be a computer enthusiast. Or because my CPU is not a "K" model. Or because I don't over-clock or because I cool with air instead of liquid. Most recently it was because I stated I'm not into RGB lighting. Never mind the fact I've been into computers since the early 70s when I literally stood inside a NORAD mainframe consisting of more than 67,000 vacuum tube diodes. Or when I started overclocking, it involved cutting motherboard traces and soldering in jumpers. But then that's when 32KB of RAM was "_more than you will ever need!_" Oh well.


You are clearly not PC Master Race if you dont overclock with lots of RGB because a stock clocks box with no customisation might we well be an office PC or a [whispers satanically] Game console [/whispering]


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You are clearly not PC Master Race if you dont overclock with lots of RGB because a stock clocks box with no customisation might we well be an office PC or a [whispers satanically] Game console [/whispering]


i cant tell if this is a joke or not


----------



## mouacyk (Mar 29, 2021)

There are those who underbuild.
Those who overbuild.
And those who build just right.


----------



## SenditMakine (Mar 29, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> So, I'm posting this as a reaction to a few recent threads where I've seen people being ridiculed for having a 'below par' hardware set-up. Whether that be a lower level GFX card, a lower core CPU, or an AIO from DELL, a portion of the community reaction has been absolutely appalling. I made some life choices and have the fortune of a stable, mediocre salary_ and no kids_. My last great PC splurge was a 2080ti. The last time I would spend 4 figures on what to me is a toy (and that came from an inheritance). And I class myself as fortunate. There are more people on this forum who can't buy 'top end' kit than those that do. And ocassionally, a thread appears where someone posts about what they've bought. Those who buy something that doesn't meet some magical 'tech standard' appear to be mocked.
> 
> It's a disgrace. A dispicable representation of the worst of ourselves.
> 
> ...


100% agreed, although most of the comments (imo) are from genuinely good and helpful people it's really a deal breaker to see some schmucks making people feel bad about their achievements.
As for myself I can proudly say that my time in this community has been one of the best (if not the best at all) times I've spent on social media. Lots of people that are actually interested on something specific you posted chatting together about that topic is just magic.
I'm really proud of this community and the people that make it really great


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 29, 2021)

mouacyk said:


> There are those who underbuild.
> Those who overbuild.
> And those who build just right.


their is no such thing as under or over
their is building for what you want


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Mar 29, 2021)

What, now there's elitism, you're joking, I joined owning a q6600 and lived /just about somehow managed to survive years of FX ownership, it's not new.
I always want the best I can get, it just gets exceeded too quickly in a way and obviously I can't afford the best, one part a year average.


----------



## SenditMakine (Mar 29, 2021)

jjnissanpatfan said:


> So everybody should drive a corolla? There are so many variables you can add to you problems...and every single person will feel different in some way.  Just offer good advice, try to help..maybe learn. That is why I come here....not to be personal and as humans we should all have thick skin, patience and understanding. I know the personal part is tough being human also...its what we do.


Yes, that's exactly what most of the comments here sounds like. Really helpful people.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Mar 29, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> What, now there's elitism, you're joking, I joined owning a q6600 and lived /just about somehow managed to survive years of FX ownership, it's not new.
> I always want the best I can get, it just gets exceeded too quickly in a way and obviously I can't afford the best, one part a year average.



Pffff. A FX is more of a secondary computer, you should get a REAL primary computer.

More seriously, with computers getting so fast these days, the "minimum enthusiast's computer" is surprisingly old. I'd say Haswell (DDR4, AVX2, PCIe 3.0) covers most of people's needs today. Obviously, newer stuff is *better*, but you're going to be playing with most of the modern tech stack even on a computer from 2014.

The exceptions are PCIe 4.0 / NVMe stuff. But the PCIe 4.0 GPUs aren't even that much faster than PCIe 3.0 in any benchmarks I'm aware of. So really, PCIe 4.0 advantages seem to be limited to the $200+ / TB PCIe 4.0 tier of SSDs (which IMO, are above the price/performance point I care to buy). The mainstream is served well with ~$100 / TB SSDs IMO, and those go full-tilt even on an old Haswell from 2014.

----------

In practice, the only "elitism" that I seem to come across are GPUs. But that's likely to do with marketing: either RTX elitism or other fancy features. Having the latest and greatest GPU seems to be a perpetual ego-boosting game played by pretty much everyone. But given how these parts are marketed, that's only natural. Hmmmm... I guess there's also a degree of elitism on monitor gaming specs.

Strangely enough: high-performance artist monitors (such as high color gamut / color accuracy) don't seem to be a major point of elitism. Its mostly just the gamer community IMO.


----------



## Wirko (Mar 29, 2021)

Splinterdog said:


> Reminds me of Harley riders who refuse to wave to the rest of us mere mortals.


Some wave to me, and I ride a bicycle.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You are clearly not PC Master Race if you dont overclock with lots of RGB because a stock clocks box with no customisation might we well be an office PC or a [whispers satanically] Game console [/whispering]


LOL 

I guess not.    



Isaac` said:


> i cant tell if this is a joke or not


That's part of the problem. Some times it is obvious. Other times, it is not.

In this case, it is completely obvious Mussels was being totally serious and meant to belittle and chastise for my clear lack of enthusiasm towards computers.


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## Shrek (Mar 29, 2021)

dragontamer5788 said:


> More seriously, with computers getting so fast these days, the "minimum enthusiast's computer" is surprisingly old. I'd say Haswell (DDR4, AVX2, PCIe 3.0) covers most of people's needs today.


You are scaring me, my main machine is a Core 2 with DDR3 RAM and I keep DDR2 machines up to date as backup.


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## tussinman (Mar 30, 2021)

There's alot of elitism and over-reaction in PC hardware.

I've been hearing for 4 years now about how my quad core i7 is "a major bottleneck" yet I currently play every game on very high settings. Anything over 2 years old = "uhhhh bottleneck uhhhhh"

My favorite is "uhh that  4 year old mid-range card lacks V-ram, that's the issue not that it's a 4 years old" (reality: the 8GB competitor to that card literally DOES NOT perform any better.........)


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 30, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> In this case, it is completely obvious Mussels was being totally serious and meant to belittle and chastise for my clear lack of enthusiasm towards computers.


i still cant tell if this is a joke


----------



## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> i cant tell if this is a joke or not


more like quoting the mantra of the elitists
There are genres amongst computer users, and they all want to think they're the pinnacle

Intel K users? the best because we overclock
AMD owners? the best cause they bucked the trend and didnt get intel! (and now zen3 genuinely is amazing, the early adopters are double smug)
Nvidia owners? expensive but i paid for 'the best' dont be jealous
Custom water? totally better than AIO
high end air coolers? low maintenance is for SMART people
linux users? apple users? win 7 die hards? you get the idea. For every tiny difference, people think it makes them better somehow.

And then the silly stuff like my personal favourite, the multi monitor trend.... and the extra screens just have discord or something that could be done in an overlay


I kinda toe the line because my main PC is an elitists dream, 5800x + 3090 with 64GB of ram? i keep forgetting it's top tier, because i'm used to being mid tier at best. I got lucky.
Then theres my junk PC's i make from spare parts in a cave while being held hostage by terrorists, where i watercool a wraith stealth without a radiator cause im too stingy to buy extra parts at new prices so i also fit in with the budget ghetto crowd that make do with whatevers on hand


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## R-T-B (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You are clearly not PC Master Race if you dont overclock with lots of RGB because a stock clocks box with no customisation might we well be an office PC or a [whispers satanically] Game console [/whispering]


Noob.  I am frog.


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## r9 (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You are clearly not PC Master Race if you dont overclock with lots of RGB because a stock clocks box with no customisation might we well be an office PC or a [whispers satanically] Game console [/whispering]



Can't stand unicorn vomit just fucking pick a color.



tussinman said:


> There's alot of elitism and over-reaction in PC hardware.
> 
> I've been hearing for 4 years now about how my quad core i7 is "a major bottleneck" yet I currently play every game on very high settings. Anything over 2 years old = "uhhhh bottleneck uhhhhh"
> 
> My favorite is "uhh that  4 year old mid-range card lacks V-ram, that's the issue not that it's a 4 years old" (reality: the 8GB competitor to that card literally DOES NOT perform any better.........)


VRAM is definitely direct proportional to ePen.



mouacyk said:


> There are those who underbuild.
> Those who overbuild.
> And those who build just right.


And about every single person reading your post (me included) find themselves in the last group. lol


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

r9 said:


> Can't stand unicorn vomit just fucking pick a color.
> 
> 
> VRAM is definitely direct proportional to ePen.


i actually went the expensive route of good software controllers so i can go static lighting per LED - ARGB is wasted on rainbow or every single LED On the same colour
I went lemon-lime themed at one point with alternating yellow and green for every LED (also the official aussie colours)

I have a lot of Epen apparently


----------



## hat (Mar 30, 2021)

r9 said:


> What do you expect you don't even have a discrete GPU.


Neither does my fiancee, even though I built her computer personally. Why? Because she doesn't need a 3090 to play the games she plays. 

I know we got a few gearheads in this forum. I think my 04 Civic with ~210k miles on it is one of the best vehicles I could have. Why? Because I don't have a fat enough wallet to afford a "better" car when mine gets great gas mileage and hasn't broken down yet. What good does buying a new vehicle do me, whether it's built for performance or efficiency, when I really can't afford one (unless I'm forced to) and mine does what I need? I'm certainly not buying a new v8 Mustang to make Mr. Whoever, Car Enthusiast on TPU happy with me.


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## r9 (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> i actually went the expensive route of good software controllers so i can go static lighting per LED - ARGB is wasted on rainbow or every single LED On the same colour
> I went lemon-lime themed at one point with alternating yellow and green for every LED (also the official aussie colours)
> 
> I have a lot of Epen apparently


I don't know how you walk without stepping on that thing. lol


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

r9 said:


> I don't know how you walk without stepping on that thing. lol


cable ties


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## r9 (Mar 30, 2021)

hat said:


> Neither does my fiancee, even though I built her computer personally. Why? Because she doesn't need a 3090 to play the games she plays.
> 
> I know we got a few gearheads in this forum. I think my 04 Civic with ~210k miles on it is one of the best vehicles I could have. Why? Because I don't have a fat enough wallet to afford a "better" car when mine gets great gas mileage and hasn't broken down yet. What good does buying a new vehicle do me, whether it's built for performance or efficiency, when I really can't afford one (unless I'm forced to) and mine does what I need? I'm certainly not buying a new v8 Mustang to make Mr. Whoever, Car Enthusiast on TPU happy with me.


The discrete car comment was sarcasm and I find out that can't use my phone keyboard to post emoji. 
Regarding the car comment was talking about people that would spend insane amount of money on a hardware so they can shame others and feel important. 
There is nothing wrong with having a Civic or using an APU.


----------



## Grog6 (Mar 30, 2021)

The stuff I have I feel the most snobbish about most people wouldn't care about, or even understand, in some cases. 
EISA SCSI and Data AQ cards, RAMBUS...


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## Shrek (Mar 30, 2021)

r9 said:


> There is nothing wrong with having a Civic


I'm a Civic snob; mine was one of the first with VTEC-E technology which I feel is downright clever Engineering.


----------



## Grog6 (Mar 30, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I don't know you but I've seen people being ridiculed for buying high end Hardware, that said it's not just one side but both


I felt ridiculous for spending $ 600 for a 7970 card; The thought of spending $2k for a card  is just not gonna happen. 


I saw a split block yesterday. He came by on Friday to show me his new wet nitrous kit.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> the silly stuff like my personal favourite, the multi monitor trend....


Hey! Don't knock multi-monitors until you've learned to live with them for awhile. Chances are, you will wonder how you ever lived with just one. And "trend"? Ummm, no. I've had a multi-monitor setup since W95 was a newborn. If there's any trend, it only due to some _finally_ catching on. 

You can have my full sized keyboard and mouse, and 2 x 24" monitors when you can pry them out of my cold, dead hands.


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Hey! Don't knock multi-monitors until you've learned to live with them for awhile. Chances are, you will wonder how you ever lived with just one. And "trend"? Ummm, no. I've had a multi-monitor setup since W95 was a newborn. If there's any trend, it only due to some _finally_ catching on.
> 
> You can have my full sized keyboard and mouse, and 2 x 24" monitors when you can pry them out of my cold, dead hands.


i got 2x32" and see no genuine use for two monitors outside of specific 2D workloads

I dont do 2D workloads, i'm a gamer or web browser... and two monitors doesnt work well for that. Okay yes i can fire up youtube or netflix on it... but i can only look at one screen at a time.


----------



## chrcoluk (Mar 30, 2021)

Those who are staying on old hardware, only buying what they can afford/need are sensible.

I have been known more than once to buy some PC hardware then realise months later I have brought something I really didnt need and could have saved money.  I have an addiction to it I suppose. 

But at the same time I dont begrudge those with top end setups either, I just feel we should all be respectful to each other and respect each other's situation.  I think it is a great thing that the PC market supports so many different levels of products and it is a shame in the last couple of generations the budget areas have been forgotten by the vendors.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 30, 2021)

> Okay yes i can fire up youtube or netflix on it... but i can only look at one screen at a time.


"Look at" one at a time, yes. But "using" both at once is their huge advantage. It is much easier to cut and paste from one document to another (or even several others) when all the documents are open and totally visible. Or copying files from one drive to another. Or streaming CNN or Pandorian in the corner of the 2nd monitor while working on the first. Or (or and) having your email client on the second - all WITHOUT overlaying or burying one window over another, or over several other windows. 

Once you get used to having multiple monitors, it can and does make you more productive. 

Just because you don't find something useful, that does not make it silly. I don't find RGB lighting useful at all. It does nothing for performance. It consumes some energy while not adding anything to performance. And it generates some heat - again without providing any gains in performance.  And last, I prefer to pay attention to what's on my "multiple" monitors and not be distracted by my case, keyboard or mouse. So RGB adds no value in terms of performance. It adds no value to productivity, and in fact, because it can be distracting, it can hinder productivity. 

So is RGB lighting silly? I would never say that - well, at least not out loud. 

The main point is, and with keeping in mind the topic and context of this thread, calling multi-monitor use "silly stuff" could easily be construed as an elitist point of view! Or if not elitist, then "sour grapes"!


----------



## metalfiber (Mar 30, 2021)

I was left behind way back when the graphics slot was AGP 8x and it switched to PCI express. I could not afford a new mobo, cpu, memory and graphics card at the same time so it was Xbox to the rescue. So, I
sure ain't going to make fun out of someone with less and help them to get the most of what they have. So i may succumb to my fears of being left behind again and get a 3090 or a prem mobo that's not elitism, it's fear of this may be my last build...plus i give all my old builds away. I've seen people here being shunned for console gaming. Hell, i've been laughed at for using a controller instead of a mouse/keyboard while playing a first person shooter...my hands hurt when i use a mouse/keyboard combo for gaming. The best policy is be kind for you don't know what tomorrow may bring.


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> "Look at" one at a time, yes. But "using" both at once is their huge advantage. It is much easier to cut and paste from one document to another (or even several others) when all the documents are open and totally visible. Or copying files from one drive to another. Or streaming CNN or Pandorian in the corner of the 2nd monitor while working on the first. Or (or and) having your email client on the second - all WITHOUT overlaying or burying one window over another, or over several other windows.
> 
> Once you get used to having multiple monitors, it can and does make you more productive.
> 
> ...


i did say its useful for 2D workloads - but not many people out there are doing what you just talked about. These are gamers getting two or three monitors just for the looks and to be elite, they arent watching CNN and compiling emails from word documents


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> These are gamers getting two or three monitors just for the looks and to be elite


Some are. But flight and car simulator programs, for example, are much more entertaining and realistic when 3 monitors provide a full frontal and wrap around view. 

I don't think it is being an elitist if one buys fancy hardware to actually use and take advantage of what it has to offer. 

Being an elitist (again, in the context of this thread) would be if that multi-monitor user put down or belittled others for only having one monitor.


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Some are. But flight and car simulator programs, for example, are much more entertaining and realistic when 3 monitors provide a full frontal and wrap around view.
> 
> I don't think it is being an elitist if one buys fancy hardware to actually use and take advantage of what it has to offer.
> 
> Being an elitist (again, in the context of this thread) would be if that multi-monitor user put down or belittled others for only having one monitor.


those are good game examples that do use it i hadnt thought of, since i dont play those genres


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 30, 2021)

metalfiber said:


> The best policy is be kind for you don't know what tomorrow may bring.


And we don’t know what someone else’s story is. Everyone has a story that is only theirs.


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## qubit (Mar 30, 2021)

@the54thvoid pfft, that's nothing! If you wanna see elitism, just check out my mate's cat's reaction to me whenever I visit. Curious and a half greeting when I come through the door, with just one sniff of my hand, Madame recognizes me. She then nonchalantly walks off, completely uninterested and any hint of a greeting disappears. If I then try to pay her any attention, she'll hiss, bite and scratch at me. This is because she's clearly superior to me and we both know it. 

But seriously, I couldn't agree more. Elitism is snobbism and has no place here, or anywhere. No one is "better" than anyone else, no matter what they own, or how much money they have. You give out those infractions if you need to.

One place it's rife is in the high end Hi-Fi market: "Oh, so you _don't_ have a £10000 twin monoblock valve amplifier, matching speakers, a 100 inch 8K TV and a huge bank balance? You're simply not good enough for us. Go away, peasant."

Looking at the other side of the argument though and you get snowflakes who take offense at every little thing that isn't glowing praise. Constructive criticism and good advice that one doesn't necessarily wanna hear are all valid arguments and should not be censored. There always needs to be a sensible balance.


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## Atomic77 (Mar 30, 2021)

Truth is the moment you do something with technology its like outdated the next day.


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## Palladium (Mar 30, 2021)

EsaT said:


> I sure enjoyed overclocking E0 Q9550 fair 30% (while undervolted) and considerer it as major part of the hobby at time.
> But overclocking doesn't even give anymore significant performance increase/more longevity as good PC.
> Nowadays biggest difference manual overclocking would make is in max power consumption/heat output.
> 
> And while water is excellent for absorpting heat from short load spikes, in continuous cooling per noise average liquid cooler sold using fashion just isn't better than high end heatpipe cooler.



I got ridiculed on Anandtech from pairing a H81 ITX board with a 4790K when I cited similar reasons back in 2014. Why should I pay triple for a Z97 board for a pointless 10% OC which is not even guaranteed at the end of the day?


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## Jetster (Mar 30, 2021)

I don't know if anyone has talked about the phycology of all this. But if you are putting others down for wanting to learn, being excited about the mediocre or making mistakes, than you have your own set of issues. True strength is shown threw kindness. To mock or make fun of others is someone that is weak and lacks self respect. And they will argue about it until you just agree to shut them up.


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## qubit (Mar 30, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I don't know if anyone has talked about the phycology of all this. But if you are putting others down for wanting to learn, being excited about the mediocre or making mistakes, than you have your own set of issues. True strength is shown threw kindness. To mock or make fun of others is someone that is weak and lacks self respect. And they will argue about it until you just agree to shut them up.


I couldn't agree more. I despise people like that, but unfortunately, there are a whole lot of them out there.


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## OneMoar (Mar 30, 2021)

Real talk if you don't have 6 31inch ultra wide 8k monitors you are a pleb and should go back to your 386 and and monochrome 13in crts


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## Jetster (Mar 30, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> Real talk if you don't have 6 31inch ultra wide 8k monitors you are a pleb and should go back to your 386 and and monochrome 13in crts


I remember buying my first flat screen 15in . I caught hell from the CRT elitists


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I remember buying my first flat screen 15in . I caught hell from the CRT elitists


man those were the days with response times that felt slower than dial up, more smearing than my the skiddies in my undies and HOLY CRAP 15" LCDS WERE SO EASY TO CARRY


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## PooPipeBoy (Mar 30, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I remember buying my first flat screen 15in . I caught hell from the CRT elitists



Ah yeah, those were the days..... You still got motion blur on those early flat screens even when you had motion blur disabled


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

i was big into the LAN party scene - on public transport buses, 45 minute bus ride from my little town to the slightly bigger town a mountain over...

And i'd take my PC with me. LCD's changed my world. (we had 28.8k dial up at the time)


----------



## BSim500 (Mar 30, 2021)

EsaT said:


> I sure enjoyed overclocking E0 Q9550 fair 30% (while undervolted) and considerer it as major part of the hobby at time. But overclocking doesn't even give anymore significant performance increase/more longevity as good PC. Nowadays biggest difference manual overclocking would make is in max power consumption/heat output.


+1. To me overclocking peaked before it became an "industry" in itself. Take a couple of Celeron 366's, throw them onto an Abit BP6 (dual socket), OC both +50% to 550MHz and enjoy a dual-core + 50% 1T gain long before dual-core's existed for the sake of 2x £8 CPU coolers was certainly a noticeable boost worth it. Fast foward to today and when people blow a £150 premium on Z boards, K chips and cooling, then ridicule lower end B boards for being "locked", they overlook the fact you can often just buy the next locked chip up for that B board for same overlocking premium (eg, £200 i5-10600K + £150-£200 Z490 + £50-£80 liquid cooling vs £230 i7-10700F + £100 B460 + £25 212 EVO) and the gain ends up... quite a lot less impressive than it used to be...


----------



## _JP_ (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> i was big into the LAN party scene - on public transport buses, 45 minute bus ride from my little town to the slightly bigger town a mountain over...
> 
> And i'd take my PC with me. LCD's changed my world. (we had 28.8k dial up at the time)


Cases were made of 1.5mm-thick SECC back then, too. I think case weight became inversely proportional with heatsink/radiator weight over time.  
My gosh, if you showed-up at a Lan party back then with anything other than a Chieftec Dragon, CoolerMaster Stacker or a Thermaltake Xaser (to name a few) with all the UV to potentially give you skin cancer and overclocked to voltage levels that make us blush now, you would be looked sideways by everyone so much so the Earth spun faster and you actually managed to time travel to the next day.
But then, the kid(s) that had modded his pops 1995 eMachines/Persario/Vectra into a sleeper and would just frag or rush anyone in that party, wouldn't be smug. He/She would just collect the wins/prizes/screenshots and head home.


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## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

_JP_ said:


> Cases were made of 1.5mm-thick SECC back then, too. I think case weight became inversely proportional with heatsink/radiator weight over time.
> My gosh, if you showed-up at a Lan party back then with anything other than a Chieftec Dragon, CoolerMaster Stacker or a Thermaltake Xaser (to name a few) with all the UV to potentially give you skin cancer and overclocked to voltage levels that make us blush now, you would be looked sideways by everyone so much so the Earth spun faster and you actually managed to time travel to the next day.
> But then, the kid(s) that had modded his pops 1995 eMachines/Persario/Vectra into a sleeper and would just frag or rush anyone in that party, wouldn't be smug. He/She would just collect the wins/prizes/screenshots and head home.


antecs with neon reactive DFI parts and UV CCFLs - LED's werent common yet


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## Palladium (Mar 30, 2021)

BSim500 said:


> +1. To me overclocking peaked before it became an "industry" in itself. Take a couple of Celeron 366's, throw them onto an Abit BP6 (dual socket), OC both +50% to 550MHz and enjoy a dual-core + 50% 1T gain long before dual-core's existed for the sake of 2x £8 CPU coolers was certainly a noticeable boost worth it. Fast foward to today and when people blow a £150 premium on Z boards, K chips and cooling, then ridicule lower end B boards for being "locked", they overlook the fact you can often just buy the next locked chip up for that B board for same overlocking premium (eg, £200 i5-10600K + £150-£200 Z490 + £50-£80 liquid cooling vs £230 i7-10700F + £100 B460 + £25 212 EVO) and the gain ends up... quite a lot less impressive than it used to be...



Besides, the games in that era like Half-Life were very CPU limited, and CPUs were mostly priced by MHz than by core count.

Whereas the real-world difference in games between a 10400F and a 5900X is minuscule at best.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Mar 30, 2021)

i morethan agree buddy ive allways been a gen or 2 away but thats by choice i dont believe in paying through the nose for the latest and greatest i take great pleasure from biding my time and saving money. but i have come across folks "not many" who think there a chip above the rest. i belong to another forum for astronomers and to say its bad on there is a understatement everybodys in clicks.


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## _JP_ (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> antecs with neon reactive DFI parts and UV CCFLs - LED's werent common yet


True. If your board had a 7-segment, that would actually be it for extra LEDs.
I think the major "smug"/Elitism inflection point was actually post 2009-2011 years, when hardware actually became the cheapest and anybody could get that 2500K/2600K + GTX580/HD7970 combo. After that, actually getting high-end meant the R9 390X and the 980Ti that started being more expensive, by the first wave of the mining boom.
I'm not forgetting the SR-7 days when actually running dual-procs and quad-SLi meant you were top-dog and e-Peen envy. Even then, owners of those would actually share most of the knowledge on those platforms and overclocking tips.

Minor edit for grammar.


----------



## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

It's like rabid sports fanboys except people are making up their own teams as they go, so no one ever agrees on anything

the sheer amount of misinformation out there doesnt help


----------



## NaeTrain (Mar 30, 2021)

Clap !  Clap !  Props for sticking your neck out.  I've been lurking for years but your post actually compelled me to say something.  

These days there is no need for top spec gear.  The industry dragged a** for so long that it just doesn't matter like it used to.   This round of hardware shortages is showcasing the real talent in the community.  Anyone with money can buy the most expensive of everything and slap it together for some great numbers / Yawn.   Now lets see them do it with used parts and yesterday's tech. 

Manufacturers have locked the industry down tight.  Crossfire and SLI are all but dead.   Intel has all but killed overclocking and AMD leaves no room.  When buying used gear I constantly see never oc'ed labels attached to parts obviously made for overclocking.  Then why buy K and X cpus?  Why buy AIO liquid coolers?  Why buy X570 motherboards?  Buying the newest part is meaningless.  How much potential is just left sitting?  Seems like priorities are all smeshed up.  Have fun, experiment, push boundaries, be creative and take everything you can.  Do something hard.


----------



## Mussels (Mar 30, 2021)

NaeTrain said:


> Clap !  Clap !  Props for sticking your neck out.  I've been lurking for years but your post actually compelled me to say something.
> 
> These days there is no need for top spec gear.  The industry dragged a** for so long that it just doesn't matter like it used to.   This round of hardware shortages is showcasing the real talent in the community.  Anyone with money can buy the most expensive of everything and slap it together for some great numbers / Yawn.   Now lets see them do it with used parts and yesterday's tech.
> 
> Manufacturers have locked the industry down tight.  Crossfire and SLI are all but dead.   Intel has all but killed overclocking and AMD leaves no room.  When buying used gear I constantly see never oc'ed labels attached to parts obviously made for overclocking.  Then why buy K and X cpus?  Why buy AIO liquid coolers?  Why buy X570 motherboards?  Buying the newest part is meaningless.  How much potential is just left sitting?  Seems like priorities are all smeshed up.  Have fun, experiment, push boundaries, be creative and take everything you can.  Do something hard.


the only one of those questions with a reasonable answer was x570 for the PCI-E 4.0 lanes -more expansions lots and high speed NVME slots
people are treating cosmetics like they alter performance, and 1% gains in rare situations like they're the end-all


----------



## kapone32 (Mar 30, 2021)

What bothers me are people that spend a premium for the label of level of product and then lord it over people. The PC space used to be fun in terms of hardware when you could get things for a decent pricing. Unfortunately we now live in a space where propoganda influences everything. Why did several big Youtubers do a challenge of 2 3090 SLI benchmark competition when Nvidia was screaming loud that they no longer supported SLI?


----------



## dirtyferret (Mar 30, 2021)

kapone32 said:


> Unfortunately we now live in a space where propoganda influences everything



now???


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 30, 2021)

Jetster said:


> I remember buying my first flat screen 15in . I caught hell from the CRT elitists


That's really odd because it was definitely the exact opposite in my experience. The early LCD buyers were clearly the ones with the elitist attitudes, looking down their noses at us CRT holdouts for still using big, bulky, heat generating, ancient technology, energy hogs.

I sure thought that was a bit ironic at the time considering the image quality of CRTs was superior, and remained superior for several years - unless you were willing to spend up towards $1000 for top-of-the-line LCDs. 

It was only after larger screen (17 and 19") LCDs, smaller pixels, digital inputs (the first LCDs were VGA/analog only) and lower prices that LCDs finally started to take over the market. They only finally clinched it when widescreens became affordable and then the norm. There were (and are) still some who prefer the "warmth" (no pun or reference to heat) of the analog image. I am not saying CRTs will make a comeback 'vinyl record' style. But there are still some who would go back to CRT if someone would come out with something in the 22 to 24" widescreen size at an affordable price. But considering CRTs require a couple pounds of lead for shielding, I doubt that will ever happen. 



> Luckies are less irritating


LOL. I remember those ads. I remember little 4-packs of cigarettes were given out free on airlines. But that ad was right - just like 4 bee stings are less irritating than 5 bee stings is true too.


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## TheUn4seen (Mar 30, 2021)

Marketing tells people "buy our newest shiny stuff or you are shit, not a human" every minute of every day. People who buy the newest shiny stuff feel better than all those shit people who don't, simply because people are genetically programmed to do anything and everything to feel better than others, that's an integral part of tribal culture humans evolved in for a few hundred thousand years. Females feel better if they have more shiny rocks than other females, males feel better the more shiny things with which they can attract those females they have. That's why I consider myself a radical misanthrope and don't consider humans a worthwhile species.


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## dragontamer5788 (Mar 30, 2021)

TheUn4seen said:


> Females feel better if they have more shiny rocks than other females, males feel better the more shiny things with which they can attract those females they have.








						The Enchanting Pebble
					






					blog.nus.edu.sg
				






> What makes this penguin so special? To us, pebbles are just ugly stones/rocks found along beaches. To the Adelie penguin, these pebbles are their most prized possession. A pebble to them is equivalent to a diamond for human.
> 
> Adelie penguin uses pebbles and other small rocks to make their nests. Because they live on the frozen, barren Antartica coast, pebbles can be scarce and hard to find. Often, these penguins are notorious for stealing each other pebbles and fighting ferociously over these precious little rocks.



Just an FYI: but such behavior is not unique to humans.

EDIT: Ah right, and this part:



> These precious pebbles possess yet another enchanting purpose. During courtship, the male will present the female with a pebble as a gift. If the female accepts the generous gift, they bond and mate for life. These pebbles hold considerable value and they are also symbols of affection toward a mate.


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## EsaT (Mar 30, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Some are. But flight and car simulator programs, for example, are much more entertaining and realistic when 3 monitors provide a full frontal and wrap around view.


Games happening in one more or less flat plane definitely benefit from it greatly.
But military flight sims and especially space sims would also need vertical coverage of field of view.

And in that development is actually going backwards because of fashion and marketing...
Lots of people hype those "ultrawide" screens as some second coming of Jesus, even basically claiming that's needed to be enthusiast/gamer.
While those are really more like ultralow screens consuming more desk space for less vertical image size.




Bill_Bright said:


> But there are still some who would go back to CRT if someone would come out with something in the 22 to 24" widescreen size at an affordable price.


SED/FED would have operated kinda like flattened CRT. (or panel of tiny pixel size CRTs)
But SED's development was killed by patent trolls, economic downturn and then OLED hype.
And now we're still stuck with old very compromised LCDs, because OLED's permanent problem is fragility of that fancy schmancy organic part...

Well, maybe after another LCD update I can finally buy true good tech flat screen without LCD's scrappy viewing angles, contrast, response times challenges etc...
Bought current monitor in December 2013 thinking that way.





TheUn4seen said:


> Marketing tells people "buy our newest shiny stuff or you are shit, not a human" every minute of every day. People who buy the newest shiny stuff feel better than all those shit people who don't, simply because people are genetically programmed to do anything and everything to feel better than others, that's an integral part of tribal culture humans evolved in for a few hundred thousand years. Females feel better if they have more shiny rocks than other females, males feel better the more shiny things with which they can attract those females they have. That's why I consider myself a radical misanthrope and don't consider humans a worthwhile species.


You forgot the part of being programmed to make justifications for spending money for absolutely no actual good in performance, features or longevity.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 30, 2021)

EsaT said:


> But military flight sims and especially space sims would also need vertical coverage of field of view.


Ummm, civilian aircraft don't have vertical movement? 

Any flight sim, not just military can benefit from vertically stacked monitors. I saw a 6 x 32" setup once. It was pretty cool, but way over the top for me. The whole setup, including fancy chair, headphones, controller with foot peddles, was over $15,000. I could not justify in my own head spending that kind of money on a computer. But then I'm no millionaire either.


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## kapone32 (Mar 30, 2021)

dirtyferret said:


> now???


Hahahaa



Bill_Bright said:


> Ummm, civilian aircraft don't have vertical movement?
> 
> Any flight sim, not just military can benefit from vertically stacked monitors. I saw a 6 x 32" setup once. It was pretty cool, but way over the top for me. The whole setup, including fancy chair, headphones, controller with foot peddles, was over $15,000. I could not justify in my own head spending that kind of money on a computer. But then I'm no millionaire either.


Agreed I feel there is some confusion as some hardware updates do make sense.


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## Kursah (Mar 30, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> So, I'm posting this as a reaction to a few recent threads where I've seen people being ridiculed for having a 'below par' hardware set-up. Whether that be a lower level GFX card, a lower core CPU, or an AIO from DELL, a portion of the community reaction has been absolutely appalling. I made some life choices and have the fortune of a stable, mediocre salary_ and no kids_. My last great PC splurge was a 2080ti. The last time I would spend 4 figures on what to me is a toy (and that came from an inheritance). And I class myself as fortunate. There are more people on this forum who can't buy 'top end' kit than those that do. And occasionally, a thread appears where someone posts about what they've bought. Those who buy something that doesn't meet some magical 'tech standard' appear to be mocked.
> 
> It's a disgrace. A despicable representation of the worst of ourselves.
> 
> ...



Would like to see this topic get back on track, OP quoted for reference to what kicked things off.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 30, 2021)

If anyone read this thread, all they figured out was it was humans being humans.  @the54thvoid , if we people are being assholes, tell them and give em a vacay.  Then move on.

If they are still an asshole, ban them again.

If they are an ass hole a turd time, throw asses out the club.

Remember, assholes gonna asshole.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 30, 2021)

moproblems99 said:


> If anyone read this thread, all they figured out was it was humans being humans.  @the54thvoid , if we people are being assholes, tell them and give em a vacay.  Then move on.
> 
> If they are still an asshole, ban them again.
> 
> ...



That is just but one side of things.  Said rules apply for so long, then they (members) always make their way back in under some guise to improve, which never ends up panning out, but the game must still be played, adding to the stress of the moderation.

Maybe I'm out of line, maybe the reality needed to be said. It is never as cut and dry as you want it to be.

Edit: 

I feel this thread is a vent from the team trying to play good cop to you all (me included), rather than having to go to the lengths of what I quoted above. Sort of like explaining commons sense or street smarts to those uncommon folk and those who live on water.

The topic needed to be addressed, and I feel it was handled well.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 30, 2021)

sneekypeet said:


> That is just but one side of things.  Said rules apply for so long, then they (members) always make their way back in under some guise to improve, which never ends up panning out, but the game must still be played, adding to the stress of the moderation.
> 
> Maybe I'm out of line, maybe the reality needed to be said. It is never as cut and dry as you want it to be.



I understand.  Nothing is black and white and shades of gray.  The rules aren't difficult.  Most of the people either know the are breaking them or are just assholes.  In either case, the result should be the same.  Chances don't need to be infinite.  No one deserves TPU, TPU is a privilege.  If they can't handle it, they don't have it.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 30, 2021)

moproblems99 said:


> I understand.  Nothing is black and white and shades of gray.  The rules aren't difficult.  Most of the people either know the are breaking them or are just assholes.  In either case, the result should be the same.  Chances don't need to be infinite.  No one deserves TPU, TPU is a privilege.  If they can't handle it, they don't have it.



Text ripped right out of my heart!

I was the bad cop, and you expressed my mantra as a supermod 

Also, to be fair, my one warning was for being an asshole!


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## stinger608 (Mar 30, 2021)

Here is a perfect example of what's going on and what this thread is all about.









						DUDE IT'S A DELL
					

Hello everybody. Im getting  new DELL PC soon my Dad and Stepmom ordered it for me from costco. Even though I just got a hp laptop last summer. I am getting this to replace my aging desktop in my room along with a wireless printer.   Specifications Brand Dell Computer Type All-in-One Features...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




I have stopped posting as much as I used to due to many members attempting to start arguing with opinions on things, hardware, or other things. 

Not only due I find @the54thvoid 's original post about giving people crap about their choice in hardware, but also about general attitudes toward other members.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> i got 2x32" and see no genuine use for two monitors outside of specific 2D workloads


Your use case scenario is clearly different from others. I'm very much with Bill on this one, multi monitor setups fill a need in ways no single display can handle.



Atomic77 said:


> Truth is the moment you do something with technology its like outdated the next day.


That's not as true as it used to be.


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## dragontamer5788 (Mar 30, 2021)

stinger608 said:


> Here is a perfect example of what's going on and what this thread is all about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Enthusiasts argue about lots of things, maybe senseless things. But that's what makes us enthusiasts: having opinions on different parts! I've been on both sides of this: I've been to communities that were "too elite" and made some people feel unwelcome. But I've also been to communities that were so watered down that no discussion or self-improvement ever happened.

The "elitists", for better or worse, have highly opinionated opinions. This is useful and helpful when debating and discussing different parts. Its unhelpful in the context of newbies or beginners.

At least in video game forums, there are "beginner" and "advanced" communities, or "casual" vs "hardcore". The casuals often talk about story details, art quality, music... while the "hardcore" talk about speedrunning, optimial strategies, or whatever. Both are important for an overall community, but its important to remember that the two sides are completely different people. And a good community needs to serve both sides.

For some websites: they exclusively cater to one side or the other. Its not necessary for one community to serve both needs simultaneously: other websites can form an "alliance" or "rivalry", and help organize / categorize visitors appropriately.


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## 95Viper (Mar 31, 2021)

Thread has wandered all over the spectrum of opinions.
It seems to be an off-topic opinion fest of values, personal feelings (un-related to topic), and analogies.

You have been warned by other mods...

Stay on topic.
Stop personal insults.

Thank You.


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## Wirko (Mar 31, 2021)

95Viper said:


> Thread has wandered all over the spectrum of opinions.
> It seems to be an off-topic opinion fest of values, personal feelings (un-related to topic), and analogies.
> 
> You have been warned by other mods...
> ...


But hey, what did you expect? Even @Mussels said "i got 2x32" and see no genuine use for two monitors outside of specific 2D workloads", he's a moderaptor and staff member, and that was a highly opinionated opinion. It's been a long thread, you can't expect everyone to stay narrowly on topic and keep themselves from expressing opinions for several days. Of insults, I've seen very few in this thread, and I wish it were the same in all other threads.
Indeed, forum members are now trying hard to identify certain groups of people that could be called "elitists", rightly or wrongly, based on budget or something else, and others may take this as an offence. But wasn't it the first post that triggered this?


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## Jetster (Mar 31, 2021)

It's not a complement or helpful. And that's not an opinion

e·lit·ist
/əˈlēdəst,āˈlēdəst/

_noun_
plural noun: *elitists*


a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite.
"critics portray him as an out-of-touch elitist"


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## basco (Mar 31, 2021)

i know i will not make friends here with my saying but i find it very confusing if a mod tells me\everybody this.


> If you can't support the community, why are you even here?


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## Mussels (Mar 31, 2021)

You guys cant see deleted posts, it went off topic and started talking about taking morphine and meth somehow.

Since my monitor comments got brought into it somehow: that's because some people see having the full triple monitor setup as something to brag about the elite status for, despite having no actual reason for it. Even when i mentioned that certain 2D workloads (meaning an actual job) benefit i still had people who fit that criteria get offended somehow... which is exactly what this elitist thread is about.

Why it is wrong to say something is not useful or wanted by many?
a 5600x and a 5950x might as well be the same for gaming for a laaaarge amount of situations, and yet people get insulted and judged for having a 'mere' 6 core CPU
16GB is honestly enough for gaming yet why are people judging others for not getting 32GB of DDR4 4000, when the difference from 16GB of 3200 is within margin of error in most tests?


Someone has a shiny pebble and really cares about it, so you think holy crap those things have VALUE!
You go to effort and get a shiny pebble. You love your shiny pebble. You show it off to everyone.
In a deja vu moment someone comes along and sees your shiny pebble, you fluff up your feathers and strike a pose like the moment you first saw one and... they don't care and walk off. 
I guess this part is all about social status, because then you MUST convince them your pebble has worth because the moment one person doesnt care, it spread until no one cares... and then you're holding a polished turd and everyones laughing at you.

So you know, aggressively sell the same marketing you fell for so you dont look like an idiot for falling for marketing. which makes you look like a bigger idiot, so you gotta sell it even harder...


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## Sithaer (Mar 31, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Someone has a shiny pebble and really cares about it, so you think holy crap those things have VALUE!
> You go to effort and get a shiny pebble. You love your shiny pebble. You show it off to everyone.
> In a deja vu moment someone comes along and sees your shiny pebble, you fluff up your feathers and strike a pose like the moment you first saw one and... they don't care and walk off.



I think this is often the case when I get in 'trouble' with said ppl.

Cause most of the time I just don't care about the stuff they try to show off or impress with and I'm like okay thats good for you and for me that would be the end of the discussion and move on.
But nope they insist that I just don't know what I miss out and further talk about how superior their stuff is yet I still don't care cause I'm perfectly fine with what I own/fits my use case and thats when it gets out of hand/insults thrown at me and whatnot.
Its like those ppl can't get it through their skull that other ppl might have different needs/preferences and that they are good as it is.
Almost like it personally offends them or something.


As for the multi monitor setup, while I can see benefits for some ppl and use case but for me it would be a waste since I don't do anything that would require it and have no plans on ever going down that route.


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## sepheronx (Mar 31, 2021)

I will tell you this.  Everyone this.

No one dares to talk bad, or try to diminish my shiny pebble.

I'm also impressed how a conversation talking about trying to keep the hardware team in perfect harmony. With Apple trees and Honey bees and snow white turtle doves.

Moves to to "coke" (drugs).  I'm always amazed by such diversion of topics.


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## Watermelon5 (Mar 31, 2021)

I definitely agree with that. I've had a few people mocking me for my RX 570, but it actually suits my needs quite well and it will most likely continue to do so for the next 2 years.


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## Vario (Mar 31, 2021)

A couple years ago I was harassed on TPU for running Win 7 (until its EOL).  Similarly been harassed for not overclocking hardware.  The block list just expands.
To those people:  "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all".


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 31, 2021)

Vario said:


> A couple years ago I was harassed on TPU for running Win 7 (until its EOL). Similarly been harassed for not overclocking hardware. The block list just expands.
> To those people: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all".


Well, I guess I would need to see those examples of what you are calling harassment. Strong encouragement, advising and reminding is not harassment in my book - not when it involves the safety and security of others, including me and my family. 

I agree with you about overclocking. I have experienced that too. Whether we overclock, or not, affects us as individuals, and only us. Not anybody else. 

But when it comes to using unsupported software, and in particular, critical software that is an essential component of computer security, and when that obsolete, superseded (multiple times!), and unsupported software has the potential to affect the safety and security of others, then that's a different ball game entirely. 

If you were "harassed" a couple years ago before W7's End of Support, then that was wrong! But if someone is still using the unsupported OS after EOS (January 14, 2020) and connecting to a network that has Internet access, then that computer that person is responsible for is now a potential threat to the rest of us. And that is the big, defining difference - the fact it affects others. 

And if that user has not learned that lesson by now (and come on, how could that be?), or knows and is just being selfish and doesn't care about others, then perhaps harassment is exactly what is needed. With all the free or low cost options to upgrade, and with Linux being free, there is no excuse. 

At this point in time, W7 is no different than XP. If still being used, fine. But don't be selfish. Be a good netizen. Keep it isolated from the Internet to prevent exposing the rest of us, including our children and grandchildren to potential, and avoidable threats!

And I will add, as IT professionals who provide technical help to others, IMO it is our responsibility to guide those seeking help, on this site and elsewhere, down the correct, safe, and secure path. And I will not apologize for that. And if you consider that harassment, then I respectfully disagree, but will not apologize for that either. 

And while W7 has absolutely nothing to do with hardware elitism, in a meager attempt to tie this back to the topic, it is my opinion that those who know the risks but think it their right to keep using W7, knowing it has the potential to expose others to risks but don't care, those are the elitist. 

Now again, this thread is about hardware elites. That said, I feel this thread has run its course and perhaps why it keeps running OT. But that too is just my opinion.


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## neatfeatguy (Mar 31, 2021)

I think the only people that bother me when it comes to posting about hardware are those that do one of two things:

1) Talk down to everyone else because they had a pile of money to pay for current overpriced hardware - be it they purchased it from a scalper or landed one from retail. Then they belittle everyone else saying that *they* knew the price hikes were coming and *they* saved up more for it and now they have better hardware because they knew better.....and they go on to wonder why everyone else isn't doing the same because it's easy for them.

2) Those people that constantly brag about their hardware in every post they make:
"I played that game and it was fun. My platinum plated 3090 allowed me to max out every setting and I had no issues playing."
"I see you have NUC you're using on your 4K TV. When I play I setup my platinum plated 3090 with my 80" 4k TV and it looks amazing."
"I see those benchmarks on the new CPU were released. The results are good. If you used my platinum plated 3090 it would have been amazing."


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## dirtyferret (Mar 31, 2021)

Vario said:


> A couple years ago I was harassed on TPU for running Win 7 (until its EOL).  Similarly been harassed for not overclocking hardware.  The block list just expands.
> To those people:  "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all".


I considered you one of the more knowledgeable posters on this forum although I don't doubt your experience or even find it shocking from some of the posts I have read on other threads.


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## sepheronx (Mar 31, 2021)

neatfeatguy said:


> I think the only people that bother me when it comes to posting about hardware are those that do one of two things:
> 
> 1) Talk down to everyone else because they had a pile of money to pay for current overpriced hardware - be it they purchased it from a scalper or landed one from retail. Then they belittle everyone else saying that *they* knew the price hikes were coming and *they* saved up more for it and now they have better hardware because they knew better.....and they go on to wonder why everyone else isn't doing the same because it's easy for them.
> 
> ...



I have seen some members here who use FULL CAPS TO SAY HOW GREAT THEIR GPU IS AT BENCHMARKS!!!1!!01!

Besides people being rude while giving their "2 Kopeks", these other people give me a headache.

You know, this thread is kind of therapeutic.  I feel better letting this weight off my shoulders.


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## R-T-B (Mar 31, 2021)

Mussels said:


> it went off topic and started talking about taking morphine and meth


Jesus.

The rest of your post is spot on.  People love their shiny pebbles.  We are all crows in disguise.


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## Kursah (Mar 31, 2021)

Well, this one has clearly ran its course.

Topic, or what's left of it, closed.


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