# i7-7700k Delidding ,is it worth it?



## HaKN ! (Apr 3, 2017)

Hey guys , just bought the new i7 ( two weeks ago) and since day one i was wondering if it was worth it? 

My chip runs at 5.0 - 1.344 volts and temps in game is mid 70's and stress testing is in the high 80's, and from what i can see around the web people are getting pretty nice results, but loosing your warranty is my concern as im not gonna upgrade anytime soon again. 

Whats youre thoughts about delidding? Thanks in advance. 

Hugo signing out


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## puma99dk| (Apr 3, 2017)

It really depends on what u gonna replace the paste with between the cpu and ihs.

I been thinking about delidding my skylake cpu but I am not sure.


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## peche (Apr 3, 2017)

both processors will get a significant temp drop, use liquid metal over cpu bare die, what ever you like over ihs and between cooler, liquid metal show better temps compared against other solutions, also some pastes perform worse than the original solution its already have, 

also there is a place were you could share and comment!
Intel Core i7 owners club feel free to give a watch !

Regards,


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## P4-630 (Apr 3, 2017)

If I will upgrade to i7 I will buy a i7 6700K since I'm not planning/risking delidding a 7700K to get better temps, a 6700K has better temps and don't need to delid and it's even cheaper as well...


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

HaKN ! said:


> Whats youre thoughts about delidding?



2 words: do it.



HaKN ! said:


> since day one i was wondering if it was worth it?



3 words: Yes it's worth.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 3, 2017)

HaKN ! said:


> Hey guys , just bought the new i7 ( two weeks ago) and since day one i was wondering if it was worth it?
> 
> My chip runs at 5.0 - 1.344 volts and temps in game is mid 70's and stress testing is in the high 80's, and from what i can see around the web people are getting pretty nice results, but loosing your warranty is my concern as im not gonna upgrade anytime soon again.
> 
> ...


My 7700k was a hot chip right out of the box.
If your comfortable like me loosing warranty then by all means go for it.

It's easy and after a few suggestions and a bit of my own theories I came up with this..
Delid 7700K and applying CLU + results

I am able to run lower volts and it runs cool as can be now.. Just be sure to read my last page on how I did the 2nd attempt of liquid metal..


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

HaKN ! said:


> Whats youre thoughts about delidding? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Hugo signing out



No, you should NEVER de-lid a CPU.

Yes, delidding a CPU can lead to lower temperatures. However, what Skylake offers removes the need of past CPUs to do so.


But, these CPUs are built with protections that keep them safe. This includes heat, overall power use, and current consumed. By delidding a CPU, you over-ride the heat protections, and thereby invalidate the other protections as well. You also, of course, invalidate your warranty (you can, however, still buy a "Tuning Plan" warranty that sometimes will let you RMA a de-lidded processor).

So you can delid a CPU, get lower temperatures and all that, but it doesn't actually allow for a better overclock that to me, justifies the loss of warranty. All it does is provide better cooling. Heat isn't going to kill one of these chips anyway (So says Intel!), so I am unsure why anyone would worry about it unless they were running into a throttle situation, and that's actually better dealt with by buying better cooling, NOT by physically modifying the chip.

All that delid will do is allow you the false security of lower temps, which then might have you think you can run higher voltage without any issues... but you cannot. The thermal interface material provided already allows you to run the required voltage to get the most out fo your CPU for 24/7 use. If you have some adequacy issues and need that extra 100 MHz it might offer, then by all means, delid way. But do keep in mind the "stock" TIM also prevents you (by design!) from running a voltage too high, and protects your CPU investment.

If you want a good set of info about delid, you can read this here:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/kaby-lake-de-lidding-overclocking-test,4970.html


Here's a few quotes:



> Instead of pushing the limits at 79°C, you're breezing with a low of 57.5°C.



Hmm, 60c instead of 80c.. cool! But what's wrong with running 80c? Nothing!



> *Tip:* If you want to overclock your processor to higher frequencies, but don't want to give up stability in AVX-heavy workloads, use your BIOS' AVX Offset feature. Let's say your CPU isn't stable in AVX-based tests above 4.8 GHz, but is stable at up to 5 GHz otherwise. You have three options:
> 
> 
> Set the chip to operate at 4.8 GHz. It'll be stable in every test, even though you lose out on the 200 MHz it'd accommodate in non-AVX tasks like games.
> ...



Wait... WHUT! Did that just say that some Z270 boards allow you to remove those high-heat scenarios anyway? So, you can avoid having a CPU throttle in extreme workloads, just with BIOS settings, and get those high clocks for gaming, too! Who would have thought!



> *Not everyone will reach speeds in the 5 GHz range.* However, that should be an attainable goal for the most cooperative -7700Ks. If you don't get lucky with your sample, the introduction of an AVX offset could give your overclock a second chance.
> 
> Only you can determine if de-lidding is worth the risk inherent to such a serious modification. If you don't plan on pushing your core voltage beyond 1.25 to 1.3V, you probably shouldn't bother. On the other hand, if you're gunning for a big overclock using aggressive voltage settings, the gain will be much more worthwhile.



So yeah, some people will do anything to hit that 5 GHz mark. Some won't be able to. So they'll delid, run a voltage of higher than 1.3V, and by doing so, they shorten the life of the CPU, no matter what the temperatures are. Remember, temperature doesn't hurt these chips!!! They throttle long before that!!!


I suggest, you move with the times, take advantage of what the platform offers, and don't de-lid. Have an elegant overclock, and not a messy hacked one. Leave that to those who don't know any better. And in the end, if you just MUST get that 5 GHz CPU, simply go any buy a pre-binned one from Silicon Lottery. It doesn't cost much more than the cost of an effective delid does anyway.

*Note: Delid on Haswell and IvyBridge, yep, worth it (Haswell specifically, because of the integrated power stuff, but Skylake and Kabylake have removed that). Skylake...KabyLake... nope.


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> So they'll delid, run a voltage of higher than 1.3V, and by doing so, they shorten the life of the CPU,



Funny.

Right, because1.31V is more than 1.30V i am shorten my CPU life




cadaveca said:


> Leave that to those who don't know any better.



I have no words to answer certain nonsense


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## hat (Apr 3, 2017)

I can't bring myself to agree with you there. I'll concede that you're far more knowledgeable and experienced than I, but trying to say having higher temperatures is good because it protects your chip seems completely nonsensical to me. Too many times over my years here have I read that lower temperatures are better, for a number of reasons (such as increasing longevity, increasing stability) to agree with you there.

There is such a thing called "planned obsolescence". It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a real thing. It was even mentioned in one of my classes back in school. If we search Google, it is defined as "a policy of producing consumer goods that rapidly become obsolete and so require replacing, achieved by frequent changes in design, termination of the supply of spare parts, and the use of nondurable materials." Of all that, I think "nondurable materials" applies here. If you buy an i7-7700, you get that dinky little coffee coaster cooler, and, of course, that terrible TIM job between the heatspreader and CPU die. That's gonna lead to high temperatures. The solution? Go out and spend more money on a better cooler, because Intel didn't supply you with a good enough cooler or build the CPU itself as good as they could have. And I'm speaking normal use here, not overclocking.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 3, 2017)

Thermal interface paste Intel use is a joke. Open one up and check, mine was hot straight out of the box. Once apart the paste looked 20yrs old being all dried out and flaky so....why a brand new chip would paste in that condition even be applied..

Everyone knows heats electronics worst enemy.

@hat Intel don't include the dinky coolers anymore 

Good read


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I have no words to answer certain nonsense


Meh, joy of the internet, everyone can express their opinion. I just happen to do reviews and have contact with hardware makers, so my opinion differs from most, maybe because they do not have such contact with the hardware makers? I dunno. EarthDog, another reviewer, holds the same opinion about delid that I do, AFAIK... and the Tom's article seems to agree too... funny, that. 

Maybe we're all shills and just want to sell you more hardware. Be sure to go to my store and buy more stuff m'kay?

Oh crap, I forgot, I don't sell PC hardware. Oh well. 



hat said:


> I can't bring myself to agree with you there. I'll concede that you're far more knowledgeable and experienced than I, but trying to say having higher temperatures is good because it protects your chip seems completely nonsensical to me. Too many times over my years here have I read that lower temperatures are better, for a number of reasons (such as increasing longevity, increasing stability) to agree with you there.


I'm not saying that hotter is better... but I am saying that what is there already is perfectly fine, and safe for long-term use. If dropping 20c is what you want, you can do that, but the difference between 80c and 60c is small enough that it doesn't matter. That's all. The 100 MHz you might add onto your OC from doing so offsets that gains anyway.

The difference? It's the current you push through the chip. Excess current = electro-migration = death. So something that limits current, to me, is a good thing.

Do also keep in mind, 7700K is a 4.5 GHz chip out of the box. 100 MHz is a small percentage of clocks at that level, and so, is a waste of time for daily use. For benchmarking, sure, 100 MHz is some points, so if that's what you are after, great, but if all you do is play videogames, then 100 MHz isn't going to make games better.

If you want to benchmark properly, you rip off the socket clamp, de-lid, and don't put the lid back on ever again.


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

hat said:


> I can't bring myself to agree with you there. I'll concede that you're far more knowledgeable and experienced than I, but trying to say having higher temperatures is good because it protects your chip seems completely nonsensical to me.



Forget what he wrote, He is delirious.



cadaveca said:


> Meh, joy of the internet, everyone can express their opinion. I just happen to do reviews and have contact with hardware makers, so my opinion differs from most, maybe because they do not have such contact with the hardware makers? I dunno. EarthDog, another reviewer, holds the same opinion about delid that I do, AFAIK... and the Tom's article seems to agree too... funny, that.
> 
> Maybe we're all shills and just want to sell you more hardware. Be sure to go to my store and buy more stuff m'kay?
> 
> Oh crap, I forgot, I don't sell PC hardware. Oh well.



So far i have De-lidded more than 15 CPUs, 3700K/7700K, all of them running fine and super cool.



cadaveca said:


> So they'll delid, run a voltage of higher than 1.3V, and by doing so, they shorten the life of the CPU



Where is written that Deliding means you can add as much voltage as you want? i guess nowhere, those that do so are Noobs.


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> So far i have De-lidded more than 15 CPUs, 3700K/7700K, all of them running fine and super cool.



Yeah, up till skylake and Kabylake, I have as well. Haswell really needed it. But 7700K does not at all. Do keep in mind 100 MHz is a roughly 2% gain. wasted effort for 2%.

I've been delidding since there were lids. AMD Athlon 4000+ and 4200+ I still have, delidded. But that was so many years ago...




Knoxx29 said:


> Where is written that Deliding means you can add as much voltage as you want? i guess nowhere, those that do so are Noobs.



But there are lots that do, and so I have my stance. My suggestions always cover all users, and the guys that do extreme OC or bench will do it anyway. But for 24/7 use on KabyLake, it's totally not required. Pushing 1.35V will lead to roughly 140W -150W power use, which is about the limit of these chips, and can be done under stock TIM, as long as you don't run AVX (good cooling will allow for AVX @ 1.35V anyway). That's why boards offer an AVX offset, so you can avoid the higher temps that might require a delid for your maximum clock. So why rip apart a chip and put it back together when you can use the BIOS for what amounts to the same thing? I mean, you're not going to run AVX for benching... so what did you gain? That 2%...


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## peche (Apr 3, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> @hat Intel don't include the dinky coolers anymore


they do, just unlocked or "K" variants come with out it, 



cadaveca said:


> If you want to benchmark properly, you rip off the socket clamp, de-lid, and don't put the lid back on ever again.


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

peche said:


>



Meh, you go balls to the wall, or you're a chicken.



			
				The Unknown User said:
			
		

> I don't want to crack my die though



Bitch, please!

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Z97...JyjHiAqRRrJz5dDuwEraazbDrVfroOtghIaAn_28P8HAQ


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## peche (Apr 3, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> Meh, you go balls to the wall, or you're a chicken.



dont have the hardware... otherwise i'll have an epic  igloo

Regards,


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

peche said:


> dont have the hardware... otherwise i'll have an epic  igloo
> 
> Regards,


ROFL. It seems most don't have the *ahem "hardware", as they slap the lid back on like that's something special. LOL. That's some of the silliest crap I have ever heard of.


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## peche (Apr 3, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> ROFL. It seems most don't have the *ahem "hardware", as they slap the lid back on like that's something special. LOL. That's some of the silliest crap I have ever heard of.


well some parts are hard to find here, taxes are brutal when you get parts outside, also nitrgen its well... i could get 100 AK47's easier than the liquid crap....

Regards,


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## fullinfusion (Apr 3, 2017)

peche said:


> well some parts are hard to find here, taxes are brutal when you get parts outside, also nitrgen its well... i could get 100 AK47's easier than the liquid crap....
> 
> Regards,


You mean that *liquid crap* under your 3770k  or ln2 cus we can bujy it at the local quickly Mart here lol


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## erocker (Apr 3, 2017)

Good clock, temps are good. I dont see a point to delid.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 3, 2017)

erocker said:


> Good clock, temps are good. I dont see a point to delid.


But Tom's hardware said 1.3+v will kill the chip


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

erocker said:


> I dont see a point to delid.



Because we want it.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 3, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Because we want it.


The OP has a not bad of a chip at all.. If he isn't sure on de-lid then I'd recommend the grizzly paste you mentioned me to snap up. It would definitely lower the overall temps but then again will it mess up the chips sensors hmm and cause it to go wonky?!


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> But Tom's hardware said 1.3+v will kill the chip



Mine should already be fried


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> But Tom's hardware said 1.3+v will kill the chip


ASUS recommends not more than 1.35V.

http://edgeup.asus.com/2017/01/31/kaby-lake-overclocking-guide/

Intel recommends no more than 1.52V @ 100 A. That's why these CPUs will top out @ roughly 150W. (1.52V x 100A = 152W)

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us...esktop-s-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.html

So it's not about the voltage, it's about the current applied at what voltage. It's the total overall power, not just the voltage that matters.

Tom's recommendations are based off of the Icc max. (1.25x Icc) (icc = current, in amps) (1.30V x 125A = 162.5W)


Tom's actually giving you more overhead than you think, and those figures come from a very educated position.

Full table here:






Different SKUs out of the 7-series range get difference maximums, as shown above.




fullinfusion said:


> Everyone knows heats electronics worst enemy.



Uh, no, it's what caused the heat that is the problem. It's called current, and is basic electrical theory. Heat is the result, not the cause.




Knoxx29 said:


> Mine should already fried



So all your eyerolling is pretty funny. You obviously have no idea what kills chips.


My understanding all of these tables and figures is why I measure CPU power consumption over the 8-pin connector, and why it is related as an important figure for the end user.


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> You obviously have no idea what kills chips.



I do.

The thing is: if you upgrade CPU every 3/4/5 years or you care that much about that crap of hardware then don't delid but if you're someone like me who doesn't give a shit about a piece of hardware and upgrade everytime i don't have anything better to do then delid


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I do.
> 
> The thing is: if you upgrade CPU every 3/4/5 years or you care that much about that crap of hardware then don't delid but if you're someone like me who doesn't give a shit about a piece of hardware and upgrade everytime i don't have anything better to do then delid


Fair enough. Like I said, some users will do it anyway. As long as you know the risks, but clearly the OP does not. Or well, didn't.


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## MrGenius (Apr 3, 2017)

Voltage/current doesn't kill CPUs. People kill CPUs(with voltage, since current isn't adjustable).


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

MrGenius said:


> Voltage/current doesn't kill CPUs. People kill CPUs(with voltage, since current isn't adjustable).


Actually, it is, since you can specify the max for current in BIOS.

Short and long duration power limits do this ( and have a slider, in Amps, in XTU, called processor current limit):









See that last item? CPU Core current limit?  You were saying...?


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## Jetster (Apr 3, 2017)

Don't do it.


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> some users will do it anyway.



And i fully agree with you. 

I could have my CPU running at 5.0GHz 1.31V but instead it's running at 4.8GHz 1.264V.


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## peche (Apr 3, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> You mean that *liquid crap* under your 3770k  or ln2 cus we can bujy it at the local quickly Mart here lol


the problem its LN2.. liquid metal its something you could find pretty legally ......


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## MrGenius (Apr 3, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> Actually, it is, since you can specify the max for current in BIOS.
> 
> Short and long duration power limits do this ( and have a slider, in Amps, in XTU, called processor current limit):
> 
> ...


Hmmm...I'll be damned. I guess you can. At least sometimes. I don't have the option to adjust the CPU core current limit in my BIOS. And I can't find an amps slider in XTU(reads as turbo boost power max in W). But I understand power limit to be watts. And I know volts x amps = watts. I suppose I just never took the time to make the calculation.

Anyway. It doesn't apply to every CPU. And it doesn't really change the point I was trying to make. Which was a spin on "guns don't kill people". And it's still true. People kill people, and people kill CPUs. On their own they're designed to be, and for all intents and purposes are, harmless.


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## cadaveca (Apr 3, 2017)

You've been able to specify max current since SandyBridge, actually, so most modern Intel CPUs offer such.

Actually, in terms of being able to control all aspects of a CPU's power use, Intel's CPUs offer A LOT, and I know that most users are unfortunately unaware. But understanding how this all works is why my voltage and such type of recommendations seem rather conservative... I'm figuring all these off-base settings and controls, and how BIOSes set things automatically for the end user trying to overclock. Like mentioned already, Tom's recommendation of 1.3V seems rather conservative, but once you apply a workload with AVX and see the current pulled (and thereby the power consumed), it paints a rather interesting picture as to what's actually going on. But you'd only see that if you measured power drawn over the 8-pin...

And so, I always recommend that delid is NOT a good idea, because I FULLY understand what it is that you are overriding, and how easily, if care is not taken, it can lead to early processor death. I mean, I make it my business to understand motherboards, CPUs and memory, and to me, I can only do that by knowing all of these "tweaks", and why or why not they might be important.

For example, I said long ago that Intel's design was destined for 4.6 GHz (you can find this is my reviews and OC guides), and then we have Intel binning Devil's Canyon for exactly that speed, long after I made such a claim. How could I know? ME? They chose that speed based on many factors, and part of that is understanding the electrical properties and features of these chips. They openly state what these factors are.. you just need to read the documents.

SkyLake/KabyLake made a change, when they removed the iVR from the die, and when they made this change, they also made the changes that allow for 5 GHz for daily use once again. Pouring through these technical documents actually explains the how and why, even. What Intel has with their CPU design is actually rather spectacular, and amazing, to me. So when someone goes and tries to modify that elegance... it seems like a travesty to me.


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## erocker (Apr 3, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I do.
> 
> The thing is: if you upgrade CPU every 3/4/5 years or you care that much about that crap of hardware then don't delid but if you're someone like me who doesn't give a shit about a piece of hardware and upgrade everytime i don't have anything better to do then delid


Then you're a poor person for advice and I'd advise you not to give it out anymore in these matters.


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## FireFox (Apr 3, 2017)

erocker said:


> Then you're a poor person for advice and I'd advise you not to give it out anymore in these matters.



Well, if you get attached to a piece of hardware that is your business, the only thing i know is that i am not so, i love Computers but what should i say, if i fry a piece of hardware i wont cry, i go and buy a new one.


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## HaKN ! (Apr 4, 2017)

Thanks for all your opnions guys . I just did it and boy did it do wonders . Will post screen shots later on. Now i can be on 5.1 at 1.33 and 5.0 at 1.295. Tried 5.2 at 1.365 and it was stable for 4 hours but stopped it because of work. The temps are in the low 60's at 5.0 and high 60's at 5.2. I honestly didnt expect this much.


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## FireFox (Apr 4, 2017)

It looks like all the bullshit i said and been a poor person for advise somehow it helped


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## Papahyooie (Apr 4, 2017)

Oh wow, here we go with the insane arguments again...

"The chip heats up so that it will throttle itself to protect it from heat, so therefore heat is good and you shouldn't delid to keep it from heating up." 

Haven't we been through this already in another thread?


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## peche (Apr 4, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> "The chip heats up so that it will throttle itself to protect it from heat, so therefore heat is good and you shouldn't delid to keep it from heating up."
> 
> Haven't we been through this already in another thread?


present in almost 10 topics or discussions....


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## FireFox (Apr 4, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> Oh wow, here we go with the insane arguments again...
> 
> "The chip heats up so that it will throttle itself to protect it from heat, so therefore heat is good and you shouldn't delid to keep it from heating up."
> 
> Haven't we been through this already in another thread?



Wow, we didn't know that.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 4, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> It looks like all the bullshit i said and been a poor person for advise somehow it helped


Amen to that brother


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## Kyuuba (Apr 4, 2017)

What @cadaveca said, delidding is not worth the trouble, you are likely to override the main purpose of the original paste, logevity, protections, etc and at a cost of extra 2 or 3 frames on games.
Think about it, the cpu runs cool on AIO kits, mine is at 4.8 GHz, barely goes over 65º C.


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## FireFox (Apr 4, 2017)

Kyuuba said:


> the cpu runs cool on AIO kits, mine is at 4.8 GHz, barely goes over 65º C.



Mine is at 4.8GHz and it doesn't go over 47c, that said, no thanks, i don't want my CPU to run hot like yours.



Kyuuba said:


> you are likely to override the main purpose of the original paste, logevity, protections



Let me override that crappy main purpose of the original paste, we ( Delidders ) are fine with it.



Kyuuba said:


> you are likely to override the main purpose of the original paste, logevity, protections,



The day when one of the CPUs i have De-lidded die because i did override the main purpose of th original paste then i will change my mind


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## Kyuuba (Apr 4, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Mine is at 4.8GHz and it doesn't go over 47c, that said, no thanks, i don't want my CPU to run hot like yours.
> Let me override that crappy main purpose of the original paste, we ( Delidders ) are fine with it.



That hot like it's going to die at that temp? lol ok, sounds like insulting the tolerance of these cpus but as OP wanted advice, i'm giving mine.


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## FireFox (Apr 4, 2017)

Kyuuba said:


> That hot like it's going to die at that temp?



It won't die but i don't like those temps and maybe the OP neither.



Kyuuba said:


> as OP wanted advice, i'm giving mine.



Well too late, CPU De-lidded


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## Papahyooie (Apr 4, 2017)

I completely fail to see how "over-riding the purpose of the original paste" with paste that does its job better, can be a bad thing... 

To put it another way... HOW can lower temps be a bad thing? And the answer is not "it's supposed to heat up so it will throttle to protect itself from heat." That's asinine.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 4, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> It won't die but i don't like those temps and maybe the OP neither.
> 
> 
> 
> Well too late, CPU De-lidded


That whole load of bullshit about the thermal paste and how if changed will over ride the chips protection made me ROFL.. I may be a dummy but I'm not stupid. I listen to reason then I decompress the info and try and make sense of it all..

The chip doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground let alone what paste it has... Unless the paste is electrical and has communication to tell the chip ( hey buddie) I'm being replaced so disable your projections.. 

The paste is the layer that transfers heat from the chip to the IHS then through the IHS to the paste to the cooler.. If the chip runs cooler then where's the issue? I'm really trying to take what Dave said, and think about it as he is knowledgeable, and does know his stuff but when I read that post that had me really questioning his opinion and why the hell would he say that.. I won't argue the fact that yes the chip does protect itself, but then again it still will even after another BETTER Tim is used.. All the CLU does is transfer the heat more effectively hence the 74-75 MW/k vs what,.. 4-5 under the lid?

Anyways for me I'm totally happy on the delid and I just let my chip poke along at its 4.5 with just around 1.10v... Hell even 4.8 from before to now runs lower voltage.. All in all it was a win win  and I'd delid any more hot chips that I may get down the road


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## cadaveca (Apr 4, 2017)

I find it funny that you guys fail to understand that these chips can only take 150W at default TIM, and then will throttle, but when you change the paste, you can push 200W before it throttles, and how that can be dangerous, even if reported temperatures are OK. It's a very simple thing. But they say the world is flat!!!   

Anyway, I'll just dump a video here, with more stuff you won't understand. 

"where did 80c come from?"











You can follow the breadcrumbs and see where I get my knowledge about how these CPUs work, or you can be ignorant, doesn't matter to me. You can find the video form Intel yourself if you look I'll still get my free hardware, and you'll still pay for it while looking.


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## khemist (Apr 4, 2017)

Yes it is worth it to me, i had pretty much the same temps, voltage and clocks on my 7700k and here they are now after 1 hour+ of BF1.



1.35v 5.0 - On water using CLU and Kryonaut.


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## FireFox (Apr 4, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> I find it funny that you guys fail to understand that these chips can only take 150W at default TIM,



I do understand that, and nobody here is saying that they will push the chips above 150W, i Delidded mine not because i want to abuse of it adding voltages or making it run at 5.0GHz or above but just to make it run cooler, see @fullinfusion , he can run his chip at 1.10V 4.5GHz, he is not pushing the CPU he is doing otherwise.




cadaveca said:


> I'll still get my free hardware, and you'll still pay for it while



My proud won't let me get hardware for free, it doesn't bother me to pay for it, it makes me so proud, to see a piece of hardware that i get for free running in my Machine it's not my kind of thing but to see a piece of hardware that i paid for it running in my Machine give me some satisfaction.


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## cadaveca (Apr 4, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I do understand that, and nobody here is saying that they will push the chips above 150W, i Delidded mine not because i want to abuse of it adding voltages or making it run at 5.0GHz or above but just to make it run cooler, see @fullinfusion , he can run his chip at 1.10V 4.5GHz, he is not pushing the CPU he is doing otherwise.



Yeah, and I get that, but there are those that will do so, and the chances of doing damage to a chip are very high. So no to delid. In the posted video, the Intel dude says "at 100c, the chip will throttle to protect itself", and how the chip reaches 100c is an effect of the TIM they use. But now, you've dropped that point to 75C or 80c, and the chip isn't going to throttle... protections broken.


Those that fail to understand... welp... no matter.




Knoxx29 said:


> My proud won't let me get hardware for free, it doesn't bother me to pay for it, it makesme so proud.


Meh. I have no shame.  Just a huge pile of hardware. This is my hobby after all, not a job.


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## FireFox (Apr 4, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> but there are those that will do so, and the chances of doing damage to a chip are very high.



I couldn't agree more with you.



cadaveca said:


> I have no shame.  I am very proud of the position I have here, and the fact I have managed to keep my position for so long.



I have a good job that allows me to buy every 2 days any hardware i want plus i have a second job to pay for my hobbies, that's enough for me.


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## cadaveca (Apr 4, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I have a good job that that allows me to buy every 2 days any hardware i want plus i have a second job to pay for my hobbies, that's enough for me.


My oldest daughter had some very serious medical issues that required one of us to stay home; I let my wife continue her career and went to school for HVAC when things were settled(which for those that know is a license to print money. ). While home with her, I turned my hobby... into this. But it's not like I'm rushing out reviews for launch days... like some other sites. W1zz gives me a lot of freedom, and it is so very cool. I don't have to keep any brands happy... could care less what they think. That means sometimes I don't get the same hardware other reviewers do, but I still get my fair share. After like 6 years doing reviews for TPU, and a decade altogether, learning this industry has been something that no money can replace. It's not like doing reviews pays worthwhile money... That's why some sites are covered in ads, do youtube reviews, and all that other crap... they have to in order to pay their bills. I can do fix someone's furnace or A/C and make a k in a day. College education FTW.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 4, 2017)

The protection isn't broken, that statement that it is still makes no sense at all.. 

Tell me how the F is it broken when it runs cooler? The thermals are still working they're just not needed till it his the 100c so that claim of...well your off setting the chip to 75c is a crock..  A degree is still a degree no matter how you look at it. If we HELP the chip run cooler how is its protection broken? It isn't, with Tim on or not the protection will still kick in no matter what..

The 150w yes I can see but like knoxx said who's pushing the chip that high? Not me, not knoxx and 99% of the others in here wouldn't. 

I do own a multi meter and to can check cpu power draw to the CPU and I do know you do a lot of testing and use AIDA 64 for the numbers so now that scares me.. Are your reviews based off software or actual hardware such as meters to probe the line if so then we'd expect validation and not just a pic of a meter but a meter hooked up running..

Hell I was running 4.8 with just FPU to heat the shit outta my proc and the software showed nowhere near, not even close to 90watts..  If I was home ID prove it..  I don't know what the deal is, but regarding site rules and disclosure I shall abide and not give out any past conversations of personal topics but I will say this... Either Dave or his insiders are blowing smoke up someone's ass or is it both.. Welp.


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## cadaveca (Apr 4, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> Tell me how the F is it broken when it runs cooler? The thermals are still working they're just not needed till it his the 100c so that claim of...well your off setting the chip to 75c is a crock..  A degree is still a degree no matter how you look at it. If we HELP the chip run cooler how is its protection broken? It isn't, with Tim on or not the protection will still kick in no matter what..



Those protections are based by power consumption and temperatures. Since power consumption limits can be adjusted (and are done so automatically by motherboards when you overclock), but temperatures cannot (except by added cooling), when you change the TIM you change the potential maximum power used by the chip, and increase its limit past where it would previously throttle... due to temperatures. After temperature protections kick in, should a chip stay in throttle mode long enough, the CPU will modulate it's speed to keep temperatures near the limit, bouncing from one speed to the next.

A degree is not a degree no matter how you look at it. It's not the heat that matters... its what makes that heat that matters. Again, this is very basic physics, like grade 10 stuff.

And again, as stated a number of times before, I use an off-the-shelf in-line Zalman power meter (LINK) to measure power consumption over the 8-pin. It was calibrated using a Fluke clamp meter that anyone can buy for less than $100 (there is a dial on the back). If you do not measure power drawn over the 8-pin you have no idea what the CPU is drawing, but it is not hard to do so. You can infer whatever you want, I do have pictures of the meters in use, and I even showed them to you, but you decided to ignore that. I can post stuff from private conversations too, if you'd like... ROFL.. that's hardly a threat, and I won't look like the bad guy after... please feel free.


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## Papahyooie (Apr 5, 2017)

I think anybody here who is going to be delidding a cpu understands that lowering the temperature doesn't give you free license to keep running up the voltage to the sky... 

The point is to LOWER the temperature, not increase the voltage beyond reason. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and saying that since there is a danger of over-volting we shouldn't do a mod that can greatly decrease temps.

You're making an argument that is flawed... your entire tirade here is based on the assumption that the user will continue to raise voltage to the damage point, and that simply isn't the case. 

On top of that, your self-righteous attitude isn't gaining you any credential points. EVERY single thread I see you in you're putting people down, acting the know-it-all, bragging about the fact that hardware companies send you free stuff... Look, nobody cares, ok? So you write reviews. So, what? I've read your reviews and they're just as formulaic and uninspired as every other reviewer. Sure, you get the information out, but you follow the canned recipe for a review. No style, no individuality, no reason for me to read your reviews over anybody else's. Plus, your grammar sucks and your writing style is boring. No rhythm at all. I realize that has NOTHING to do with the thread topic, but you definitely need to be taken down a peg or two. Your holier-than-thou attitude is getting old. 

I'm surprised TPU allows you to represent them with the way you act in the forums.


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## FireFox (Apr 5, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> I think anybody here who is going to be delidding a cpu understands that lowering the temperature doesn't give you free license to keep running up the voltage to the sky...



There are 58 replies, show me just one of them where some of us have said that will increase voltages

Read post  #51 and #55



Papahyooie said:


> doesn't give you free license to keep running up the voltage to the sky...



We are not running up the voltage to the sky but we are running down the voltage to the hell
​


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## cadaveca (Apr 5, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> You're making an argument that is flawed... your entire tirade here is based on the assumption that the user will continue to raise voltage to the damage point, and that simply isn't the case.



That's not what I said. The truth is that we don't know where that damage point is, other than _maybe_ 150W. Yet I'm the first to even suggest that there might be such a limit, or to quantify it, here in this thread.




Papahyooie said:


> On top of that, your self-righteous attitude isn't gaining you any credential points. EVERY single thread I see you in you're putting people down, acting the know-it-all, bragging about the fact that hardware companies send you free stuff... Look, nobody cares, ok? So you write reviews. So, what? I've read your reviews and they're just as formulaic and uninspired as every other reviewer. Sure, you get the information out, but you follow the canned recipe for a review. No style, no individuality, no reason for me to read your reviews over anybody else's. Plus, your grammar sucks and your writing style is boring. No rhythm at all. I realize that has NOTHING to do with the thread topic, but you definitely need to be taken down a peg or two. Your holier-than-thou attitude is getting old.
> 
> I'm surprised TPU allows you to represent them with the way you act in the forums.



Hi pot, I'm kettle. And you feel it's your job to take me down that peg? How is that any different from what you say I'm doing? Only difference is I laid the bait and you bit it. Can't see the forest for the trees?


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## Kyuuba (Apr 5, 2017)

Sad to see such thread end like this, we wanted to debate and someone ended up taking everything against him/her, the OP already took a decision and that's why i opted not to add anything else to the thread.
Even people with high proud/ego learn to stay shut when they don't want to accept facts, not hard to do.
Regards!


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## Papahyooie (Apr 5, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> There are 58 replies, show me just one of them where some of us have said that will increase voltages
> Read post  #51 and #55
> We are not running up the voltage to the sky but we are running down the voltage to the hell



Right. I'm agreeing with you. Cadaveca is the one who is claiming that we/they are.



cadaveca said:


> That's not what I said. The truth is that we don't know where that damage point is, other than _maybe_ 150W. Yet I'm the first to even suggest that there might be such a limit, or to quantify it, here in this thread.
> Hi pot, I'm kettle. And you feel it's your job to take me down that peg? How is that any different from what you say I'm doing? Only difference is I laid the bait and you bit it. Can't see the forest for the trees?



Everybody who overclocks knows there is such a limit. It's basic knowledge, as you yourself said. So why are you making such a big deal out of it when it's a known factor?
As for me being the pot, I don't think that calling you out on your bad attitude is doing the same thing as what you're doing. You insult people in every thread I see you in. If someone punches me and I punch back, nobody would call me a hypocrite.
And if you're "laying bait" then once again, I don't see why TechPowerup allows you to represent them. You're contributing to a bad reputation, and that isn't good when you're an ambassador for the site.

Edit: The bottom line is, if a person is to the point of delidding a chip, they already know about the dangers of overvolting. And if they don't then they have no business delidding a chip at all. So your point is moot. There is no problem in calling out the risk, even just as a reminder. But when it gets to the point that you're insulting people who still want to take that calculated and known risk, then there is a problem.


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## thesmokingman (Apr 5, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> Oh wow, here we go with the insane arguments again...
> 
> "The chip heats up so that it will throttle itself to protect it from heat, so therefore heat is good and you shouldn't delid to keep it from heating up."
> 
> Haven't we been through this already in another thread?



I was wondering wtf was going on in this thread till a voice of reason dropped in. I still don't get the crazy arguments in this thread. The question the OP needs to ask himself is do you want to to keep throttling or do you want to run at temps under 60c all the time? I idle sub 20c and max at 50c, friggen awesome sauce. The choice is yours OP.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 5, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> I can post stuff from private conversations too, if you'd like... ROFL.. that's hardly a threat, and I won't look like the bad guy after... please feel free.


Hmm yeah sure if it makes you feel better go ahead.. cadaveca you took what I said way into the left field, the comment about past conversations was just that... Not PM's, but rather spoken words face to face..Yes you do know your stuff but to me you know what Google shows you, not everything, but some of the things.. I ask you about memory settings as that I know for a fact you have a total understanding on..

There were questions I'd ask you in the past and you did try your best to answer as a child could understand and thank you, but what I meant was in some cases I just found it easier to just nod and agree to avoid useless hours of debates..

I know your theory on the delid does make some sense to me but im sorry, I just can't wrap my head around what you say is true as in "Intel use that specific paste to control and protect itself..""

Sorry but I'll just come out and say it.. Naa I don't agree at all on that at all.

You seem to have your guard up with me for some reason, was it when you went off on me over a memory question?  then you post to humiliate me in front of others for no reason but rather on assumptions, and me just asking a tech question warrant such a hard blow in public forums... Tbh I think you broke one of the site's rules on displaying others (MY) private information publicly... It wasn't me, I knew what would happen and follow the rules so  did print screen as the posts were modded out so.... Please.. 

How about we keep this on tech and not this BS

And yeah I do NOW remember your fluke meter.. Sorry I don't have hard drive for my memory but thanks for that.. Maybe you can put it to work for us in your spare time and give us some numbers.. Better yet, do you have a spare 7700k to delid and then do some tests, I'm curious on what you come up with.


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## FireFox (Apr 5, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> I'm curious on what you come up with.



No please, don't ask for that, i don't want to read more BS.


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## thesmokingman (Apr 5, 2017)




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## cadaveca (Apr 5, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> Everybody who overclocks knows there is such a limit. It's basic knowledge, as you yourself said. So why are you making such a big deal out of it when it's a known factor?
> As for me being the pot, I don't think that calling you out on your bad attitude is doing the same thing as what you're doing. You insult people in every thread I see you in. If someone punches me and I punch back, nobody would call me a hypocrite.
> And if you're "laying bait" then once again, I don't see why TechPowerup allows you to represent them. You're contributing to a bad reputation, and that isn't good when you're an ambassador for the site.


Everyone does not know the limits, that's a bad assumption on your part. It is my duty to inform people, and when people argue about those warnings, I stand my ground, and throw in bait. Makes it fun for me and keeps me motivated.

I didn't insult anyone. Please quote my insults... out of any thread. You interpreted my posts as insults, but there was not one direct insult. I do not insult people with every post, sorry, that's quite the exaggeration.

You are free to ask W1zz to fire me... make a complaint. I'll even summon him for you. @W1zzard

BTW, my bait is my "over-confident" attitude, and that is all. You don't like my bragging? That's bait.



fullinfusion said:


> I know your theory on the delid does make some sense to me but im sorry, I just can't wrap my head around what you say is true as in "Intel use that specific paste to control and protect itself..""
> 
> Sorry but I'll just come out and say it.. Naa I don't agree at all on that at all.



Then why do they use the TIM they do? To save costs? They make profit on NOT cutting corners, and instead charging a premium for their products. Intel is hardly broke, and the 100k they might save on each generation of CPUs from using an "inferior" TIM barely pays a single person's wages at Intel. They purposely build in these protections to ensure the average computer user with an Intel chip does not run into any issues that might cause them to RMA a processor. That is more expensive than what core-IHS TIM might save them. It's called "risk aversion".



fullinfusion said:


> How about we keep this on tech and not this BS


 You brought it up, not me.



fullinfusion said:


> And yeah I do NOW remember your fluke meter.. Sorry I don't have hard drive for my memory but thanks for that.. Maybe you can put it to work for us in your spare time and give us some numbers.. Better yet, do you have a spare 7700k to delid and then do some tests, I'm curious on what you come up with.


 I don't have an extra unfortunately. You get power use data in every board review, since that Zalman meter is "permanently" attached to my PSU in the board review rig..


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## FireFox (Apr 5, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> To save costs?



I guess so, otherwise why in the hell they don't use a good TIM?


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## cadaveca (Apr 5, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I guess so, otherwise why in the hell they don't use a good TIM?


For the reason I said? I dunno. Like I said, from an RMA perspective, and business-wise, it makes a LOT of sense. They really don't save that much... especially since they do solder the 130W+ chips, so they already have most of the tooling. And they could charge us $10 more is they wanted.. I mean, after all, 6950X and Xeon chips cost so much... they obviously don't mind overcharging. You do also have to keep in mind the majority of their processors are not sold to enthusiasts. Businesses want chips that will last forever, and if running hot was a problem, they'd have issues.


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## Papahyooie (Apr 5, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> Everyone does not know the limits, that's a bad assumption on your part. It is my duty to inform people, and when people argue about those warnings, I stand my ground, and throw in bait. Makes it fun for me and keeps me motivated.
> I didn't insult anyone. Please quote my insults... out of any thread. You interpreted my posts as insults, but there was not one direct insult. I do not insult people with every post, sorry, that's quite the exaggeration.
> You are free to ask W1zz to fire me... make a complaint. I'll even summon him for you. @W1zzard
> .



Informing people is one thing, and I applaud you for that. Pretending that your word is the only one that matters is not informing. 
You did insult people. I'm not going to go back and find them because this really isn't worth that much time. But I know full well that you know you are insulting people, even if it's not "direct." You mean it that way, and anybody with any communication skills can see that. The very fact that you "throw in bait" is evidence of that. It's not my job, nor my right to say that you should be fired. I'm simply surprised and frankly a little disappointed that it's allowed to continue, given TPU's reputation.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 5, 2017)

@cadaveca didn't you once tell me about the Intel protection plan for $20 bucks or so and how it basically covers the entire cost of a replacement CPU? 

I just don't get why Intel paste beit shit inho would be a problem for RMA if all a chip costs is $20 odd dollars..

The paste under the lid of my chip was dry and flaky.. I think I deserve better then wouldn't you agree.. Even earthdog said i got one shit chip if it runs that hot at that voltage if I recall correctly.. 

I understand you say the paste is the paste so thermals hit a certain limit and then she protects itself.. You also mention that it's the inners of the chip that creates the heat and I get that, but again that's why I have the issue in your statement that protections disable because we change paste? Even though it is  the chips inners is what creates the heat then what's the deal on changing the Tim if the thermal interface can draw the heat out so much faster and more efficiently??


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## cadaveca (Apr 5, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> I'm simply surprised and frankly a little disappointed that it's allowed to continue, given TPU's reputation.


People don't like the clubhouses gone either, but that's how dictatorships work.  After so many years working for TPU, I'm part of that reputation. I am also far from perfect, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about me personally. We are all allowed our faults.



fullinfusion said:


> I understand you say the paste is the paste so thermals hit a certain limit and then she protects itself.. You also mention that it's the inners of the chip that creates the heat and I get that, but again that's why I have the issue in your statement that protections disable because we change paste? Even though it is  the chips inners is what creates the heat then what's the deal on changing the Tim if the thermal interface can draw the heat out so much faster and more efficiently??



The TIM used has a specific W/m-k that is used to calibrate power consumption to temperatures (and helps companies choose and design coolers). That keeps the chip away from that 150W limit. You can find how they do this (calibrate temperatures to the cooling provided), and where on the IHS you must place a thermal diode (by modifying the IHS) in the whitepapers for each chip.) When you change that TIM, you change the temperature reading for the same power load... for example yourself, you had "X" temps, and a specific power usage to get those temps. Now you can push higher wattage through the chip, and then be back at those old temps. It is unknown if you are exceeding safety margins at that point, since the thermal sensors are calibrated given a specific cooling method, that you have now modified. 

Temperature sensors do not actually measure temperatures... This is why RealTemp offers calibration.



> Each core on these processors has a digital thermal sensor (DTS) that reports temperature data relative to TJMax which is the safe maximum operating core temperature for the CPU. As your CPU heats up, your Distance to TJMax will decrease. If it reaches zero, your processor will start to thermal throttle or slow down so maximizing your distance away from TJMax will help your computer run at full speed and more reliably too



You read temperatures as a number that increases, but really, it is an electrical value that DECREASES. The readings are also only truly accurate at the throttle point. So really, the temperatures you have now, aren't real.


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## MrGenius (Apr 5, 2017)

Where you're kinda wrong is to say that lower temps don't let you apply more power safely. Which to a certain extent they do. If this wasn't the case world record OCing wouldn't require LN2. And/or wouldn't be doable because lowering temps sufficiently wouldn't save the chips from being damaged by ridiculously high voltage and/or clocks. Which is false. Lower temps are the only reason the chips aren't fried in the process.

Do you get that? That's rhetorical...


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## cadaveca (Apr 5, 2017)

MrGenius said:


> Where you're kinda wrong is to say that lower temps don't let you apply more power safely. Which to a certain extent they do. If this wasn't the case world record OCing wouldn't require LN2. And/or wouldn't be doable because lowering temps sufficiently wouldn't save the chips from being damaged by ridiculously high voltage and/or clocks. Which is false. Lower temps are the only reason the chips aren't fried in the process.
> 
> Do you get that? That's rhetorical...


You are 100% correct, however, the difference between LN2 and water is over 100C, and close to 200C of difference, not 20c (say, 80c load to -180c load... which is actually closer to 300c than 200c.) But that is only possible because silicon is a semi-conductor, whose electrical properties change with different temperatures. To actual have an impact on those changes requires a SIGNIFICANT difference, not a minor one (hence requiring a near 300c temp drop to get those extra MHz). That's why they only manage an extra GHz or so for 200c in temp reduction. They are also not truly "using" a CPU for extended periods under LN2...


So let's say they get 2000 MHz for 300c. You've reduced temps by 20c, so roughly 7%. And 7% of 2000 MHz is 150 MHz. Of course, that change in frequency scaling isn't that linear... and that's why it requires LN2 and not just Dry Ice.


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## FireFox (Apr 6, 2017)

My view is, if you do not go to far with voltages there wont be any kind of risk, those 7700K has been designed to achieve 5.0GHz with voltages 1.31V/1.35V and in some cases less than 1.31V, no Delid and the CPU will run hot, it doesn't matter if you use Air cooling or Water cooling, some 7700K even at stock hit the  80c/90c, that said i don't see anything wrong if you Delid, i don't think Intel designed the 7700K to run that hot or did they do it purposely? i don't think so, it was just a mistake that they did, well, they did two mistake, first: the CPU runs hot, second temperature spike, they couldn't do worst.


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## cadaveca (Apr 6, 2017)

With care is it safe, sure. But in order to be safe, to me, you need to know EXACTLY what it is that you are doing, and WHY it invalidates warranty.

but unintentional? NO way. These Intel CPUs have ben hot since IVB. If they wanted to fix that, they would have.

However, I must admit, that most of these current designs are actually intended for mobile and low-power usage, not desktops, and a side effect of that is these heat levels at these performance levels. I mean, nobody really NEEDS to overclock, for any reason.

 They have also have the same TDP for a long time now, at least in the "K" chips. But the rest... they are all 65W CPUs, and those chips, they run just as hot, just as often. That cannot be a mistake.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 6, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> With care is it safe, sure. But in order to be safe, to me, you need to know EXACTLY what it is that you are doing, and WHY it invalidates warranty.
> 
> but unintentional? NO way. These Intel CPUs have ben hot since IVB. If they wanted to fix that, they would have.
> 
> ...


Did you get a maximus IX code board from Asus to review? Or maybe I'll just ask this. The poster led on the board offers post code and if set to auto  it'll show CPU temperature once in the OS.. Are you familiar with that option, and if so what is it actually reading because it shows 10c lower under full stress them any other temperature monitoring software.


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## cadaveca (Apr 6, 2017)

that is "projected" IHS temps, not TjMax, which is what most people refer to. It's a useless number. The same number is what ASUS tools report, AIDA64 sees this number, as do a host of other tools. Some boards use it for fan control, and that's about it.

DOn't have to have the board to know that (but I do have one).


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## fullinfusion (Apr 6, 2017)

OK cool, be looking Forward to a review on it.. But another thing you say is it reports to AIDA64 and I also use the software and no where in the sensor part does anything even remotely come close to what it reads so why I figured it isn't the only board with that option and you'd have an idea on it.


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## cadaveca (Apr 6, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> OK cool, be looking Forward to a review on it.. But another thing you say is it reports to AIDA64 and I also use the software and no where in the sensor part does anything even remotely come close to what it reads so why I figured it isn't the only board with that option and you'd have an idea on it.


It is likely that the POST display is programmed to show CPU temps with an offset to get it somewhere close to DTS readings... I dunno. But I will pay attention to it when I get the board set up for review now that you have mentioned it. I might not have otherwise.


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## Kyuuba (Apr 6, 2017)

That's why in BIOS i set fan settings keeping in mind the -10 degrees C because that's what the fans use to operate.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 6, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> It is likely that the POST display is programmed to show CPU temps with an offset to get it somewhere close to DTS readings... I dunno. But I will pay attention to it when I get the board set up for review now that you have mentioned it. I might not have otherwise.


Hey glad to hear you'll review it, right now its been running for 30 min idling at 1.150v @ 4.5 on all cores..

Real temp is showing 20-23c as it floats around and the post display is reading 22-23 and bouncing around between the two.


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## FireFox (Apr 6, 2017)

fullinfusion said:


> Hey glad to hear you'll review it, right now its been running for 30 min idling at 1.150v @ 4.5 on all cores..
> 
> Real temp is showing 20-23c as it floats around and the post display is reading 22-23 and bouncing around between the two.



What temps do you get with 1.15v running Aida?

Mine is running at 4.5 with 1.136v, right now i am doing some test running Aida.

@cadaveca 

As we know adding too much voltage it's not good but what about when you drop too much the voltage, what would be the minimum voltage for 4.5?

Any thoughts?


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## Folterknecht (Apr 6, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> @cadaveca
> 
> As we know adding too much voltage it's not good but what about when you drop too much the voltage, what would be the minimum voltage for 4.5?
> 
> Any thoughts?




Instability and crashes that's what you get with a voltage too low.

Now depending on how the "Offset" is implemented (I don't have experience with Z170/270) it's also possible to get "prime stable" and the system still crashes/freezes when at idle or low load especially when changing loads. Reason being you hit the needed voltage for Prime95 but through that negative Offset (if applied to all power states) you don't hit the required voltages for the lower/idle power states.
Undervolting works more or less the same as overclocking - trial and error until you get stability.


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## FireFox (Apr 6, 2017)

I don't really know if trust Prime95, running stress test with Prime95 require more voltage than a Machine needs for stability, if your Machine let's say needs 1.30v to run stable 24/7 for Gaming/browsing ect ect it shouldn't count as not stable if you run prime and it crash because as said before prime needs more voltage than any application/Games that won't never put the CPU under the same stress that prime does.

Note: that's why i prefer Aida.


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## Papahyooie (Apr 6, 2017)

So if all of this temp calibration nonsense were true, why would Intel not solder on the IHS (or at least use better TIM) and then calibrate the throttle temp to be at the lower temp that would occur at the chip's max current (apparently 150w)?
It absolutely makes no sense to KEEP more heat in the chip in order to calibrate the throttle temp to be higher. They could just tell it to throttle at a lower temp, and use better TIM.


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## fullinfusion (Apr 6, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> What temps do you get with 1.15v running Aida?
> 
> Mine is running at 4.5 with 1.136v, right now i am doing some test running Aida.



Here you go, I use only FPU in the test

Prime is an extreme test, Like @cadaveca said many times he'll use gaming and such to stress test a cpu.. especially Battlefield if I remember correctly..








Here's a better Idea @4.8







On my old 4790K at 4.8Ghz and just FPU, it would hit high 90's in just a few seconds.


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## Folterknecht (Apr 6, 2017)

If you know what you 're doing (no auto voltages in BIOS/sane settings) Prime95 compared to Aida is the better test as it allows to diagnose what voltage is wrong and puts puts more load on the CPU (usefull when you do more than gaming or browsing cat pictures on the internet - or overclocking for someone else). Now I don't say Prime should be used as the sole indicator of stability, that would be total nonsense ofc.


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## hat (Apr 6, 2017)

I believe a suite of testing is ideal. Aida is an option, but prime95 should be run as well, and LinX or other Linpack utility, possibly throw in some benchmark utility on a loop for a while.


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## cadaveca (Apr 6, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> @cadaveca
> 
> As we know adding too much voltage it's not good but what about when you drop too much the voltage, what would be the minimum voltage for 4.5?
> 
> Any thoughts?



Voltage too low is just as dangerous (as disclosed by Intel), as it can lead to current spikes just the same (and excessive current increases electro-migration). On some boards this is an issue, on some boards it is not. It all depends on how they adjust current limits automatically when OC is "enabled".


There is no set voltage for 4.5 GHz. There is a range that all CPUs fall under, but it is pretty wide.



Papahyooie said:


> So if all of this temp calibration nonsense were true, why would Intel not solder on the IHS (or at least use better TIM) and then calibrate the throttle temp to be at the lower temp that would occur at the chip's max current (apparently 150w)?
> It absolutely makes no sense to KEEP more heat in the chip in order to calibrate the throttle temp to be higher. They could just tell it to throttle at a lower temp, and use better TIM.



Read the Intel whitepapers, and you'll see it's not nonsense. I posted a screenshot out of one of these documents earlier in the thread. Just like they list voltage and current maximum, there are also cooling documents too. A CPU is a precision instrument, and all aspects of its operation are documented and disclosed.



fullinfusion said:


> Prime is an extreme test, Like @cadaveca said many times he'll use gaming and such to stress test a cpu.. especially Battlefield if I remember correctly..



The best way to test stability is to use the CPU in the way you will use it on a daily basis. All these "stability tests", for me, serve as a tool to diagnose WHY a product might not be stable, and you need to understand the type of workload they create in order to understand how a failure should be "fixed" properly.

For me, the most intensive thing I do is Battlefield, so it's what I use a lot, specifically because I can pass AIDA64 testing, Prime95, OCCT, anything... and still crash in Battlefield. Battlefield simply uses the CPU in a different way that brings out a different type of "error".


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## FireFox (Apr 6, 2017)

hat said:


> I believe a suite of testing is ideal. Aida is an option, but prime95 should be run as well, and LinX or other Linpack utility, possibly throw in some benchmark utility on a loop for a while.



I disagree with you and i will tell you why.

Let's say you OC a Machine at 4.8GHz 1.26v and use it for Gaming, you don't get  BSOD or any kind of issues so everything is working fine but then you run prime but after a few minutes you get BSOD so you increase the voltage to 1.28v Re-run prime for a few hours and the Machine it's stable, next, Realbench, after a few minutes of test at 4.8GHz 1.28v BSOD so once again more voltage have to be added so 1.30v Re-run Realbench and it's stable, next OCCT, BSOD with 1.30v so voltage increased at 1.32v/1.33v in order to pass the stress test, test passed let's say with 1.33v, that said, you run 3 different softwares and each one needs different voltage otherwise your Machine Crash, at the end you went from 1.26v to 1.33v when your Machine could run stable at 1.26v without crash.

So does it makes any sense all these tests?


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## hat (Apr 6, 2017)

If I can't pass all the tests, then my machine is NOT stable! Failing those tests is an indicator of some sort of instability, which is not how I want to run my machine. If that's how you run your system then that's okay, just be aware that you're potentially risking crashes whether in gaming or in some other application you might run, or some data corruption somewhere... lots of things can happen. I want my machine to be stable in everything I can throw at it, even if it means adding more voltage to pass the "synthetic, unrealistic" torture test when otherwise seemingly stable.


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## FireFox (Apr 6, 2017)

hat said:


> If I can't pass all the tests, then my machine is NOT stable! Failing those tests is an indicator of some sort of instability, which is not how I want to run my machine. If that's how you run your system then that's okay, just be aware that you're potentially risking crashes whether in gaming or in some other application you might run, or some data corruption somewhere... lots of things can happen. I want my machine to be stable in everything I can throw at it, even if it means adding more voltage to pass the "synthetic, unrealistic" torture test when otherwise seemingly stable.



I ran my ex 3770K over 2 years at 5.0ghz 1.37v, 5 hours of prime stable but a few minutes of OCCT and BSOD, i never increased the voltage and i never had any kind of issues.


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## hat (Apr 6, 2017)

Was that regular ol OCCT, or OCCT Linpack?

In any case, like I was saying if it were me I would have done whatever I needed to do to pass the test that failed. Good for you if you ran like that and didn't encounter any issue, but that's just not how I roll.


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## Mike Sama (Jun 15, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> Yeah, up till skylake and Kabylake, I have as well. Haswell really needed it. But 7700K does not at all. Do keep in mind 100 MHz is a roughly 2% gain. wasted effort for 2%.
> 
> I've been delidding since there were lids. AMD Athlon 4000+ and 4200+ I still have, delidded. But that was so many years ago...
> 
> ...


delidding or overclocking to get the maximum out of your chip is called being an enthusiast it is not nonsense like the crap you said above


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## jaggerwild (Jun 15, 2017)

Mike Sama said:


> delidding or overclocking to get the maximum out of your chip is called being an enthusiast it is not nonsense like the crap you said above



 What he is say(Cadaveca)is its not worth it on a Kaby Lake the performance increase is at best 2%, even "Well Seasoned Enthusiast" know that.


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## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2017)

jaggerwild said:


> What he is say(Cadaveca)is its not worth it on a Kaby Lake the performance increase is at best 2%, even "Well Seasoned Enthusiast" know that.



It depends on what you mean by enthusiast, I suppose.


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## peche (Jun 15, 2017)

if mine ... ill delidded it...


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## trog100 (Jun 16, 2017)

i re-lidded my 4790K but cant be arsed to do the same thing to my 7700K chip.. my 4790k chip did run around 10 to 15 C cooler after the re-lid and i recon my 7700K chip would do the same..

i am only a part time "enthusiast" my full on "enthusiast" phase never lasts that long.. in practical terms the gain from going that extra bit isnt worth it.. but when in the right frame of mind its fun.. in fact it seems obligatory.. 

trog

i tweak and fiddle with most things i am into.. but i do it for fun and to pass time.. when it stops being fun i stop doing it or more accurately fiddle with something else.. i am just a natural born fiddler.. but my "obsession" with any one thing to fiddle with never lasts that long.. he he


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## itsakjt (Jun 16, 2017)

I read all the messages in the thread and here's what I have to say. I am not a know-it-all guy. I just have or get proper knowledge and logic behind everything.
So here are my points:

1. As said, even if the CPU is calibrated to run hotter than it could have been run to limit current and trigger thermal protection (even I agree that it is BS) does not mean that there are other things that might not come into play. There are SMD capacitors and resistors under the chip and on the motherboard as well. A higher CPU temperature would mean a higher temperature on all of these components. Capacitors have a finite lifespan and we all know they last longer at lower temperatures. Delid for the win.

2. The thermal throttling and other protections talked about in this thread can be manipulated by achieving lower temps simply by using a better cooler. It is just that the degree will vary. I will delid the chip any day.

Advicing someone not to delid because you can feed more voltage and not allow it to heat up much is the same as advicing someone not to get a better cooler because they can push more voltage for that too. 

3. Even if no overclock is done and suppose I happen to own a non K CPU with a B series or H series chipset, I would always like to run it at lower temperatures and have more thermal headroom when it is required. The place I live in has ambient temperatures that shoots to 40 degree C in summer.

4. A computer enthusiast thinking to delid his/her CPU in 99% cases have proper knowledge of the limit of power (voltage/current) that can be applied to the CPU.

A few questions to be answered:

Intel could have simply used a better TIM if they wanted to? Sure they could. But they want the chips to get old and want to limit the potential just to target the newer chips into the market. Also the TIM will dry up after long and the chip will heat even at everything at stock. The "common user" won't even bother to delid and replace the TIM. Intel be like:  "People no longer fix things once they are broken. Why fix stuff when you can replace right?" Well wrong. The chips if built with IHS soldered would have survived for an indefinite amount of time and can help a poor man get a PC and work from. The computer I am using at this very moment to type this has an Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 from 10 years ago. This is the office PC and has got no reasons for an upgrade. I will see how well the non-soldered chips do after 10 years from now with respect to thermal performance (TIM is a consumable).

Is delidding worth it? YES it is.

The ONLY con to delidding I find is risking the warranty.

And about Intel, they might do a lot of technology research and might be the largest semiconductor manufacturer to date. But ethically, they are not sound as history says. And no wonder why they would not want to limit the potential and lower the lifespan of the chips deliberately.
Also their support for existing products is horrible. If anyone has questions with this thing, take a look at the number of people suffering because of the Intel CPU used on a highly popular phone: The ASUS ZenFone 2. ASUS has rolled out VoLTE update for all the deserving phones except for phones with the Intel Atom CPU namely the ZE550ML, ZE551ML and ZX551ML. Know who the culprit is? Intel, for not cooperating with ASUS for the VoLTE drivers.


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## fullinfusion (Jun 16, 2017)

OMG close this thread already


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## jaggerwild (Jun 17, 2017)

LOLZ! ^^^

 Unless your using Phase change, and have unlimited access to LN2 there is no profit in it. As said all parts of a build determine and play a factor in weather you will benefit from this or blow your system up. Example PSU, memory, motherboard, etc.
 On this KABY LAKE CPU it is shown there is little to no benefit, on other CPU'S it changes. So unless you like tossing $350 into the wind, advice is to not delid them. To even ask shows lack of information, know how, and a reasonable mind.

 The New CPU'S SKYLAKE-X that are coming may provide some big fun for certain overclockers..


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## R-T-B (Jun 17, 2017)

I gained a good extra 200Mhz and much better thermals out of delidding my Kaby Lake.  Plus I never suffered from the "temp spikes" others report.  I was on a Noctua air cooler.  I think I'm of a reasonable mind, but could be wrong.  

Certainly no reason to close this, at any rate.  Like it or not it's a legitimate debate.


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## jaggerwild (Jun 17, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> I gained a good extra 200Mhz and much better thermals out of delidding my Kaby Lake.  Plus I never suffered from the "temp spikes" others report.  I was on a Noctua air cooler.  I think I'm of a reasonable mind, but could be wrong.
> 
> Certainly no reason to close this, at any rate.  Like it or not it's a legitimate debate.




 Thats why you posted yer awesome score! The only debate is in your mind, wow 200Mhz so worth it. Mods he is batting as well. But I know they like you so they won't......


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## R-T-B (Jun 17, 2017)

jaggerwild said:


> Thats why you posted yer awesome score!



I did, months ago in the CPU-Z thread (it wasn't awesome by the way, it was just 5Ghz).  The CPU in question isn't even in my possesion anymore, it was sold just this week.



> The only debate is in your mind



Nope, it's right here.




> wow 200Mhz so worth it.



I think the thermals were yes.



> Mods he is batting as well. But I know they like you so they won't......



I literally have no idea what this is supposed to mean...  so here's a frog batting:


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## sneekypeet (Jun 17, 2017)

Let's not make this personal fellas!


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## Caring1 (Jun 18, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> I literally have no idea what this is supposed to mean...  so here's a frog batting:
> 
> View attachment 89163


Baiting? It's the only thing I could think of that might make sense.


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## R-T-B (Jun 18, 2017)

Caring1 said:


> Baiting? It's the only thing I could think of that might make sense.



I wasn't trying to bait anyone, though that does make sense with the context.


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## infrared (Jun 18, 2017)

As long as things are kept impersonal I don't think there's a reason to close the thread..

Eh, this isn't meant to sound as passive aggressive as it might sound, but there's a feature that some members might find useful, in the top right you'll see something that says "Unwatch thread".


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