# Epic game store is epic at spying on you



## Hellfire (Mar 15, 2019)

I always had some hesitation about the Epic Game store but now I am glad I never installed it.

In a recent post over on Reddit a user has found just what the EGS gets up to when installed on your laptop.

Firstly, it is clear the client is listing all of the processes running on the system. As seen below






As well as following up with trying to access .dll files of other programs.







What's more worrying is that the user goes on to show that the client likes accessing your root certs on the PC.






As well as all things Internet related, including Cookies, Keys and other aspects.






As well as a hardware survey, like Steams, without asking your prior permission to do so






However, none of this is not as bad as the final, Despite users not wishing to link their Epic games account with their steam account or their friends list, and without any permission or notification Epic Games launcher is taking a copy of your steam localconfig.vdf. a file containing your entire steam data, Friends list, Games owned, playtime history.

Epic Games have confirmed that it is in fact true, with Tim Sweeney stating Epic "ought to only access the localconfig.vdf file after the user chooses to import Steam friends" .

With Epics links to Chinese company Tencent, it really does make you wonder what they're compiling all this data for and if it isn't getting passed on to other parties.


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## kastriot (Mar 15, 2019)

So what's new?


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## phanbuey (Mar 15, 2019)

Oh wow... hidden fiddler.  Sweet.

Fiddler can actually record traffic, probably not what they're doing, but still - cheeky.

This is the problem with all these launchers - having one isn't terrible but its still not secure, having the customary 4-5 all phoning home, opening ports, and getting access to connection monitoring and hardware info is absurd.

Consumers get all nervous and make these huge deals about the cache prefetcher exploits; but then have a few of these running on their systems...


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## INSTG8R (Mar 15, 2019)

“Just another Launcher” right?


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 15, 2019)

Check steam, origin too


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## 64K (Mar 15, 2019)

Epic claims they are only importing your Steam friends and play history with your explicit permission. I don't trust them at this point so I won't be signing up for an account anytime soon.


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## phanbuey (Mar 15, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> I've got nothing to hide. If Epic wanna see WCG running 16 tasks on my PC then they're welcome to do it lol. Aside from that, my PC is pretty boring.



I mean they do have access to your cookies so they'll know what you looked at on Amazon, what you were doing on other sites etc.  Then when you're playing your games there will be a sweet little ad for that thing you were thinking of maybe buying.

It's not really what they're doing now, it's where they're headed that's unnerving.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

Hellfire said:


> Epic Games have confirmed that it is in fact true


And anyone is surprised by this how? Seriously. Even Steam does a few things like this, but at least they rope it in somewhat. Another reason to prefer and support GOG.


AmioriK said:


> I've got nothing to hide. If Epic wanna see WCG running 16 tasks on my PC then they're welcome to do it lol. Aside from that, my PC is pretty boring.


That's hardly the point and you're an exception to the rule.


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## R-T-B (Mar 15, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> I've got nothing to hide.



Nothing irks a privacy advocate more than this phrase.

It's by this phrase that liberty dies.



phanbuey said:


> Oh wow... hidden fiddler. Sweet.



It's actually querying a fiddler the user already has installed.  Not the same.

This is likely anticheat functions, is my bet.  Still disturbing.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> It's by this phrase that liberty dies.


Spot on!


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## moproblems99 (Mar 15, 2019)

I would be curios to know what level of effort the other launchers go about.  I am sure EGS 'learned' from those who came before.  It is how 'innovation' works.


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## Hellfire (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> It's actually querying a fiddler the user already has installed.  Not the same.
> 
> This is likely anticheat functions, is my bet.  Still disturbing.



Since when do the game clients have Anti Cheat installed? This was taken before any game had been downloaded, and the requests came from the epicgamelauncher exe file, not an anti cheat program.

The thing is, I have nothing to hide either, but it doesn't mean I want to allow them to snoop into my computer, the same as I wouldn't let police come into my house without a warrant, it's not about hiding your stuff, it's about your rights.

I'd be curious to see how other launchers stand up compared to this.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 15, 2019)

Hellfire said:


> Since when do the game clients have Anti Cheat installed?



If this anticheat resource was going to be used globally on games then they would likely install it during the launcher install to prevent having to the check on each game install.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

Hellfire said:


> The thing is, I have nothing to hide either, but it doesn't mean I want to allow them to snoop into my computer, the same as I wouldn't let police come into my house without a warrant, it's not about hiding your stuff, it's about your rights


Again, spot on. No one has the right to spy on people like this, regardless of an EULA.


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## Hellfire (Mar 15, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> If this anticheat resource was going to be used globally on games then they would likely install it during the launcher install to prevent having to the check on each game install.



I understand but the anti cheat programs have their own executable, they don't run from the launcher.exe executable.


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## R-T-B (Mar 15, 2019)

Hellfire said:


> Since when do the game clients have Anti Cheat installed?



Since VAC.



moproblems99 said:


> I would be curios to know what level of effort the other launchers go about.  I am sure EGS 'learned' from those who came before.  It is how 'innovation' works.



Indeed.  Steam VAC is heavily integrated with the steam executable.  They are likely cloning that idea.

Thing is, it doesn't matter.  It needs to ask for consent for these actions or go away.



lexluthermiester said:


> Again, spot on. No one has the right to spy on people like this, regardless of an EULA.



No one reads EULAs anyways.  And who can blame them?  They are walls of texts.  Companies know this and are hiding increasingly scary stuff in them.

It's why sadly, I've started reading them.


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## AmioriK (Mar 15, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I mean they do have access to your cookies so they'll know what you looked at on Amazon, what you were doing on other sites etc.  Then when you're playing your games there will be a sweet little ad for that thing you were thinking of maybe buying.
> 
> It's not really what they're doing now, it's where they're headed that's unnerving.


Then maybe I should unplug my damn PC from the internet and never look back, IDK, maybe buy some books or, perhaps... Go outside. What's the point in getting worked up and upset if I can't do jack? That's why i made that stupid post, trying to be 'okay' with the fact that I can't do anything to change that so why even bother making a fuss. I honestly just _don't care anymore._ The world is **** fest anyway.

Am I going to stop using Epic Games Launcher because of this? No I bloody well ain't. I spent 70 quid on Metro Exodus and I want to goddamn play it.


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## hat (Mar 15, 2019)

It's pretty tough. Everyone wants your data. Pretty much anything you use that connects to anything else is collecting your data, to some extent. The only way to truly avoid it is to live under a rock somewhere. But you can limit it somewhat by avoiding services you don't need to use. It's one reason why I stay far away from social networking sites, and I try to limit my use of Google products. I'm stuck with Windows, so I use ShutUp10... but I don't trust that it's going to be very effective.

Funnily enough, most of this is done in the name of advertising, and I use an adblocker, so I actually see very few ads.


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## R-T-B (Mar 15, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> What's the point in getting worked up and upset if I can't do jack?



I think this is the worst myth.  That people are powerless.  They aren't.


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## AmioriK (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I think this is the worst myth.  That people are powerless.  They aren't.


Tell me one thing I can do then, boycott Epic game launcher? Waste 70 quid? Write to my mp? (lol). Maybe I can make a t shirt that says 'i don't support violation of privacy' then go and wear it in Tesco. Oh wait, I don't leave the house.


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## 64K (Mar 15, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> Tell me one thing I can do then, boycott Epic game launcher? Waste 70 quid? Write to my mp? (lol). Maybe I can make a t shirt that says 'i don't support violation of privacy' then go and wear it in Tesco. Oh wait, I don't leave the house.



I don't mean to single you out but Epic was questionable as a service when they paid Deep Silver to make Exodus a timed exclusive on the Epic store. There are plenty of people, myself included, who are waiting until it comes to Steam.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Since VAC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One of the most overlooked programs available: EULAlyzer.  Made by Brightfort, who is reputable.  When I have bothered to use it, it is very informative.
Can be gotten safely at MajorGeeks or at Brightfort site.

https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/eulalyzer.html

http://www.brightfort.com/eulalyzer.html


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## newtekie1 (Mar 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Again, spot on. No one has the right to spy on people like this, regardless of an EULA.



The EULA is exactly what give someone the right to spy on people like this. I bet the permission is buried in there, or it should be. Don't like being spied on? Then don't agree to the EULA.


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## AmioriK (Mar 15, 2019)

64K said:


> I don't mean to single you out but Epic was questionable as a service when they paid Deep Silver to make Exodus a timed exclusive on the Epic store. There are plenty of people, myself included, who are waiting until it comes to Steam.


 guess I'm just a dumbass then. Shame that I give zero f**s anymore. Spy all you want epic lol. 

Ignorance is bliss.


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## Valantar (Mar 15, 2019)

I sent a request to Epic Support for any and all data they've collected on me - which from my understanding of the GDPR, they are legally obligated to provide. We'll see what they respond with, I guess. Considering that the only thing I've ever used the launcher for is installing Fortnite thinking I might try it out one day, they really shouldn't have much.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 15, 2019)

Valantar said:


> I sent a request to Epic Support for any and all data they've collected on me - which from my understanding of the GDPR, they are legally obligated to provide. We'll see what they respond with, I guess. Considering that the only thing I've ever used the launcher for is installing Fortnite thinking I might try it out one day, they really shouldn't have much.



Can you post it here verbatim? 



R-T-B said:


> I think this is the worst myth.  That people are powerless.  They aren't.



Truthfully, you don't have a lot of say about it here in the US.  The best thing you can do is not use their services but that doesn't even really gain you anything.  We may as well be lumped in with China thanks to the Patriot Act.  The only difference is that we let you browse that stuff and follow you while you do it.

Apologies for the derail.

EDIT:

I am tempted to install it and log my traffic with Wireshark to see what they are doing with it.  At least you could setup some outbound firewall rules to block traffic that is detected to be likely related to Epic.


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## Gasaraki (Mar 15, 2019)

64K said:


> I don't mean to single you out but Epic was questionable as a service when they paid Deep Silver to make Exodus a timed exclusive on the Epic store. There are plenty of people, myself included, who are waiting until it comes to Steam.



Really? That's all that took? You do know that's been common practice between consoles since forever right? And how is it Epic's fault? 4A Games are the ones that agreed to it. If I offered you 90% instead of Steam's 70%, of the total price of the game if you sell your game only in my store "Gasaraki's Games R Us", you could tell me to go fu** myself OR agree and start pulling your game with the other stores. Why is it wrong for me to offer you that deal if it's win win for "everyone"(producer and seller)?


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## Liquid Cool (Mar 15, 2019)

I closed all of my online accounts except Steam(Yes GOG too...).  I'm reassessing if I want to do business with each and every company that I've dealt with in the past and most of them aren't going to make the cut.  The only power we have is to vote with our wallets.  These companies don't listen, nor do they care about anything else.  Especially morals...from my perspective.  

I have a long list of companies I won't do business with under any circumstances.  You should too.  Start reading those EULA's they're shoving in your face.  They're not shy about restricting your rights...you should be aware of it.

Closed my account at GOG?  It was a personal choice involving promises made to linux users that weren't kept.  When it changes...I told them I'd be back.  They we're cordial enough...but not as cordial as you might think.  They told me outright....they we're going to hold onto information from my account if they had to defend themselves in the future.  A bunch a nice guys.....

Best Regards,

Liquid Cool


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## moproblems99 (Mar 15, 2019)

Gasaraki said:


> 4A Games are the ones that agreed to it.



Not really, it was Deep Silver.



Liquid Cool said:


> Closed my account at GOG? It was a personal choice involving promises made to linux users that weren't kept. When it changes...I told them I'd be back. They we're cordial enough...but not as cordial as you might think. They told me outright....they we're going to hold onto information from my account if they had to defend themselves in the future. A bunch a nice guys.....



What do you expect?  Of course they are going to hold on to your data.  Especially your financials as they are required for X years by law.


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## 64K (Mar 15, 2019)

Gasaraki said:


> Really? That's all that took? You do know that's been common practice between consoles since forever right? And how is it Epic's fault? 4A Games are the ones that agreed to it. If I offered you 90% instead of Steam's 70%, of the total price of the game if you sell your game only in my store "Gasaraki's Games R Us", you could tell me to go fu** myself OR agree and start pulling your game with the other stores. Why is it wrong for me to offer you that deal if it's win win for "everyone"(producer and seller)?



4A Games had no say in the matter. Deep Silver and Koch Media made that decision. The game sat as a pre-order on Steam for a year and received the attention and exposure that Steam offers and at the last minute Deep Silver pulled it from Steam.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 15, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> Tell me one thing I can do then, boycott Epic game launcher?


Yes.


newtekie1 said:


> The EULA is exactly what give someone the right to spy on people like this. I bet the permission is buried in there, or it should be. Don't like being spied on? Then don't agree to the EULA.


Why do you bother responding like this? You've heard of the concept of statutory rights, correct? Rights to confidentiality/privacy can not be contractually waived.


64K said:


> There are plenty of people, myself included, who are waiting until it comes to Steam.


I'm waiting for the GOG release.


Liquid Cool said:


> Closed my account at GOG? It was a personal choice involving promises made to linux users that weren't kept. When it changes...I told them I'd be back.


While I feel your pain, the Linux equation isn't in their hands entirely. That was a silly choice and a bit short-sighted. Kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Why do you bother responding like this? You've heard of the concept of statutory rights, correct? Rights to confidentiality/privacy can not be contractually waived.



And that statutory right is not what we are talking about here.  The statutory right to privacy only applies for them spying on you without your consent.  I'll give you examples:

Scenario A: Someone sets up a hidden camera in my house and uses it to record me and shares the video with others without my knowledge in any way.  This violates my statutory right to privacy and is illegal.

Scenario B: Someone approaches me and offers to pay me $1,000 a day, but in exchange they are going to set up a camera in my house and use it to record me and will share the video with others.  Because I have the option to either agree or not this is not a violation of the statutory right to privacy.  If I agree, I still have not waived my right to privacy, because I am still allowed to determine what is private.  If I agree, anything the camera records is no longer considered private, but anything the camera doesn't record is still private.  They can't come in later and put in a second camera recording a different angle without my approval.  If I disagree, anything that goes on in my house remains completely private.  I am allowed to make this choice.

Scenario B is what we are talking about with Epic.  As long as they have buried the permission to collect the data in the EULA that the user agrees to, this is completely legal. The user agreeing to the EULA allows Epic to spy on the user, and likely gives Epic permission to share the collected data with others. It is also what makes this not a statutory rights issue, because at the end of the day, the choice to allow the spying is made by the user.

So, I'll say it again, if you don't like to be spied on, don't agree to the EULA.  You won't get to use their software, but the choice is yours, and that is the important difference that determines if this is a violation of a person's statutory rights or not.  So the EULA _is_ what allows them to spy on you.

Now, we can make the argument that it is extremely scummy to hide permission to spy on you in an EULA/ToS.  I'd agree that it's a scummy thing to do in a heartbeat. It also might be the case that Epic didn't actually put the permission in their EULA/ToS, in which case they are definitely in the wrong, and I'd agree with that.  However, the idea that spying like this is never allowed and an EULA can't be used to allow it, is completely wrong.


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## Vya Domus (Mar 15, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> That people are powerless.  They aren't.



Well, go on, tell us what can we do. Outside simply not using the service of course.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 15, 2019)

Valantar said:


> I sent a request to Epic Support for any and all data they've collected on me - which from my understanding of the GDPR, they are legally obligated to provide. We'll see what they respond with, I guess. Considering that the only thing I've ever used the launcher for is installing Fortnite thinking I might try it out one day, they really shouldn't have much.



Probably will call your bluff and give you a pre-recorded answer under the assumption you are a part of the majority, aka, can't afford corporate lawyers to represent you to prove them wrong. I commend you for trying though, but I gave up many years ago. lol


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2019)

Hellfire said:


> Firstly, it is clear the client is listing all of the processes running on the system. As seen below
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Computer is infected.  I started ProcessMon, I set a filter to include EpicGamesLauncher.exe, I started EGS, I let it get all of the way to usable, I closed the window, and then I closed it in the system tray.  I then did a search for "fiddler" and...







Hellfire said:


> What's more worrying is that the user goes on to show that the client likes accessing your root certs on the PC.


Insignificant.  EGS has to pass through UAC before it can even launch which means security certificates are involved.  Then it's a signed executable so Windows has to authenticate that signature.  Once the app is launched, it undeniably uses HTTPS to sign in which involves more certificates.  On top of that, it probably uses certificates and encryption to enforce licensing on games.



Hellfire said:


> As well as all things Internet related, including Cookies, Keys and other aspects.


EGS is clearly designed around a webkit browser not unlike Steam uses Chromium.  When the webkit initializes, it checks for cookies which may contain settings relevant to the browser and the specific user.  Not extraordinary.




Hellfire said:


> As well as a hardware survey, like Steams, without asking your prior permission to do so


Most applications these days need to know hardware capabilities before attempting to initialize something that requires it.  On that note, it didn't actually run when I started it:



But it appears that it did run 8 days ago.



Do I care?  Not particularly.  Developers need to know what hardware they should target.  It's not like bank info or something truly sensitive.




Hellfire said:


> However, none of this is not as bad as the final, Despite users not wishing to link their Epic games account with their steam account or their friends list, and without any permission or notification Epic Games launcher is taking a copy of your steam localconfig.vdf. a file containing your entire steam data, Friends list, Games owned, playtime history.
> 
> Epic Games have confirmed that it is in fact true, with Tim Sweeney stating Epic "ought to only access the localconfig.vdf file after the user chooses to import Steam friends" .
> 
> With Epics links to Chinese company Tencent, it really does make you wonder what they're compiling all this data for and if it isn't getting passed on to other parties.


The bulk of what EGS does, in fact, is scan Steam's entire userdata directory and it seems to glance in every folder...repeatedly...for some weird reason.  After about the fourth time, it does read the whole localconfig.vdf file but it does not copy it.  It closes the file, then immediately queries the metadata from its own games, in my case: EdithFinch, ThimbleweedPark, JackboxPartyPack1, AxiomVerge and it does this twice.   Then it goes back to the registry looking for more steam installs (via more registry keys) to scan...it repeats this whole process three times in my case probably because of Public, Admin, and limited user accounts.  Seems like poorly written code that doesn't really do anything.  Immeidately after looking at Steam userdata, it starts doing a lot of webwork likely initializing the UI.  Once it is done with that, it enumerates all of the running processes (not sure why...could be looking for games currently running like EGS crashed and restarted).  Then it goes back to web caching.

All told, I really see nothing of particular concern.


Going to run Wireshark next.  In particular, I'm wondering why EGS keeps tapping 230.0.0.1:6666...

Edit: Has something to do with IGMP (multicasting) on a 240.#.#.# IP.  Multicast cuts down on bandwidth consumption but why they are joining a multicast group, I'm not sure.  Not particularly concerned about it because there's multiple legitimate uses for it (e.g. how it is downloading the video playing on the store page).


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## AmioriK (Mar 16, 2019)

64K said:


> I don't mean to single you out but Epic was questionable as a service when they paid Deep Silver to make Exodus a timed exclusive on the Epic store. There are plenty of people, myself included, who are waiting until it comes to Steam.


Oh; and I'm not waiting _one year_ to play one of my most highly anticipated games, because of this. Yes, it's bad and all, but as I have said, and no one has provided me with a course of action; there is _nothing I can do about it. _So why even worry? As far as I'm concerned, if they're not going to turn up at my door and try to kill me, I don't give a damn.

I'm sorry that's the way I think, but I don't think I can worry about something else on top of what I already do each day. My original post was just me trying to be at comfort with that fact. ~shrug~


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 16, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> Oh; and I'm not waiting _one year_ to play one of my most highly anticipated games, because of this.


Hold that thought...


AmioriK said:


> here is _nothing I can do about it._


Sure there is, you do what you just said you don't want too, wait mate.


AmioriK said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if they're not going to turn up at my door and try to kill me, I don't give a damn.


You'll be thinking that up until the time someone steals your identity, ruins your credit rating, makes it tough to get a decent job and you have to spend money as well as years worth of time sorting that mess out. You'll take your privacy more seriously after that, I guarantee it. But hey, carry on with your impulse gaming and continue not to care about anything..


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## remixedcat (Mar 16, 2019)

wireshark it!!! pm me their IP addresses so I can firewall that crap.


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## AmioriK (Mar 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You'll be thinking that up until the time someone steals your identity, ruins your credit rating, makes it tough to get a decent job and you have to spend money as well as years worth of time sorting that mess out. You'll take your privacy more seriously after that, I guarantee it. But hey, carry on with your impulse gaming and continue not to care about anything..


*That's extremely unfair.* A company like Epic Games is not going to steal my identity. There is nothing on my PC that identifies me. I do not store my data unencrypted. I'm sorry but my identity is not going to be stolen because I installed the Epic Games Launcher. I take my privacy seriously, I don't leave my curtains open when I'm getting dressed, thanks.

Why should I have to wait a year for steam when Steam arguably does all of the above, too? Don't jump from EGS -> "Oh noes, I lost my identity and credit rating and can't get a decent job and have to spend years fixing it" please. it's quite a jump. Oh, and waiting one year for Steam version of Exodus *won't fix anything. *

Anyway, enjoy your fallacy of privacy, I'll be enjoying Metro Exodus. Great game, btw. Well worth it


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## moproblems99 (Mar 16, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> A company like Epic Games is not going to steal my identity.



No, you're right.  Honestly, you probably have a better chance of your data getting popped from Spectre style attacks at a datacenter then you do from anything Epic is going to do.  

If someone is worried about Epic, you may as well shitcan all your smart devices (phones, tvs, tablets, dvd players, Alexas, Nests, toasters, fridges, etc).


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 16, 2019)

AmioriK said:


> *That's extremely unfair.* A company like Epic Games is not going to steal my identity.


No but their employees might. And if they get hacked and have a data breach? What then?


AmioriK said:


> There is nothing on my PC that identifies me. I do not store my data unencrypted.


Not everyone does that. Most people have a fair amount of usable data on their PC's.


AmioriK said:


> Anyway, enjoy your fallacy of privacy, I'll be enjoying Metro Exodus. Great game, btw. Well worth it


Typical passive-aggressive response. Nice.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> No but their employees might. And if they get hacked and have a data breach? What then?



Yeah i mean its not like it doesnt happen


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## AmioriK (Mar 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> No but their employees might. And if they get hacked and have a data breach? What then?


Lol, go ahead and phone up all the companies that have data on you and ask them to delete all the data. You're singling out Epic Games because you probably have some kind of issue with them? Idk.

Delete all the game clients, delete all the software; don't use Windows 10. Actually, while you're at it; unplug your PC from the internet. 

Sorry about the final remark, but I'm just a bit annoyed that you're accusing me of all these things when all I wanna do is play Metro Exodus.

Next time I won't bother even posting here


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## Athlonite (Mar 16, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Well, go on, tell us what can we do. Outside simply not using the service of course.



You could always wait for Cracked copy to come out on some pirate site somewhere on the www


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## hat (Mar 16, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Hold that thought...
> 
> Sure there is, you do what you just said you don't want too, wait mate.
> 
> You'll be thinking that up until the time someone steals your identity, ruins your credit rating, makes it tough to get a decent job and you have to spend money as well as years worth of time sorting that mess out. You'll take your privacy more seriously after that, I guarantee it. But hey, carry on with your impulse gaming and continue not to care about anything..



This is where common sense comes into play. I understand privacy concerns, but that pretty much goes flying out the window once you connect to the Internet. As far as having your identity stolen etc, that's where you make decisions about where you shop. Newegg, for example, is a place I deem trustworthy to shop at. Epic is... slightly less so, but to be fair, you can do far worse. It also helps to use PayPal wherever possible, instead of dumping your raw CC (or even bank info) on a site for making purchases.


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## OneMoar (Mar 16, 2019)

the guy that initially posted this by his own admission had no fking idea what half of it was for


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## hat (Mar 16, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> the guy that initially posted this by his own admission had no fking idea what half of it was for



As shown by our own @FordGT90Concept ...

I mean, I get it, the Epic store is new and all, and with ties to Tencent... but it doesn't quite seem like they're sending cyber ninjas to hijack your computer.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Computer is infected. I started ProcessMon, I set a filter to include EpicGamesLauncher.exe, I started EGS, I let it get all of the way to usable, I closed the window, and then I closed it in the system tray. I then did a search for "fiddler" and...



From what I can tell, Fiddler is not a program started by EGS, it is a program the person already has running on their system and EGS is trying to access that program for some reason.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2019)

It might be this, a web debugging proxy and it hooked EGS because EGS has a webkit browser in it.

There's absolutely no evidence EGS invokes "fiddler" intentionally under normal circumstances.  That folder won't even exist on most systems.


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## OneMoar (Mar 16, 2019)

there is no evidence of anything here other then of some kid the barely knows how to use a debugger and claims to be a expert


----------



## Valantar (Mar 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Probably will call your bluff and give you a pre-recorded answer under the assumption you are a part of the majority, aka, can't afford corporate lawyers to represent you to prove them wrong. I commend you for trying though, but I gave up many years ago. lol


No need to sue, I could just report them to the relevant authorities. This isn't the US.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Computer is infected.  I started ProcessMon, I set a filter to include EpicGamesLauncher.exe, I started EGS, I let it get all of the way to usable, I closed the window, and then I closed it in the system tray.  I then did a search for "fiddler" and...
> View attachment 118771
> 
> 
> ...



From what I've read Sweeney already announced that this was a dirty bit of code to get Fortnite community features in order and also as you say, to detect hardware configs and other pretty basic stuff.

The only truly questionable thing here is prioritization of this issue. In the light of recent developments I'd probably have tried to fix this _before_ it hit the media. Now the issue is given higher priority because of someone picking up on it. Not the best PR, Epic knew full well this doesn't deserve awards.

I get that it fits the narrative of evil Epic doing evil things, but the explanation given, and the response from Sweeney is credible. Once more, things are being blown out of proportion wrt Epic.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 16, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> I get that it fits the narrative of evil Epic doing evil things, but the explanation given, and the response from Sweeney is credible. Once more, things are being blown out of proportion wrt Epic.



I'm guessing many people haven't worked with budgets and timelines before.  Quality is usually the first thing that goes.  Case in point, Epic client.


----------



## INSTG8R (Mar 16, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> From what I've read Sweeney already announced that this was a dirty bit of code to get Fortnite community features in order and also as you say, to detect hardware configs and other pretty basic stuff.
> 
> The only truly questionable thing here is prioritization of this issue. In the light of recent developments I'd probably have tried to fix this _before_ it hit the media. Now the issue is given higher priority because of someone picking up on it. Not the best PR, Epic knew full well this doesn't deserve awards.
> 
> I get that it fits the narrative of evil Epic doing evil things, but the explanation given, and the response from Sweeney is credible. Once more, things are being blown out of proportion wrt Epic.


Doesn’t change the fact that garbage client is garbage no matter how you try to prop it up. It still wants to mine your FB and Steam to create a “friend list” it’s still using questionable Tencent. But keep being a cheerleader for a substandard service that’s poached one good game.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 16, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> Doesn’t change the fact that garbage client is garbage no matter how you try to prop it up. It still wants to mine your FB and Steam to create a “friend list” it’s still using questionable Tencent. But keep being a cheerleader for a substandard service that’s poached one good game.



It IS inferior, absolutely... that isn't the point. The point is that being blown way out of proportion because people committed themselves to some (whichever) 'platform'.


----------



## FCG (Mar 16, 2019)

Liquid Cool said:


> I closed all of my online accounts except Steam(Yes GOG too...).  I'm reassessing if I want to do business with each and every company that I've dealt with in the past and most of them aren't going to make the cut.  The only power we have is to vote with our wallets.  These companies don't listen, nor do they care about anything else.  Especially morals...from my perspective.
> 
> I have a long list of companies I won't do business with under any circumstances.  You should too.  Start reading those EULA's they're shoving in your face.  They're not shy about restricting your rights...you should be aware of it.
> 
> ...



Tell us more.


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## INSTG8R (Mar 16, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> It IS inferior, absolutely... that isn't the point. The point is that being blown way out of proportion because people committed themselves to some (whichever) 'platform'.


Not about commitment at all I have all the other ones on my PC even Bethesda which is barely any better(doesn’t even have a friends list but shows me “online” in corner  It’s about service vs return wich it has none it’s already been hacked exposing millions of users. If any of this is even remotely true it just makes it even shadier and less appealing. I’ve uninstalled it, Edith Finch just ain’t worth any of this.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 16, 2019)

Valantar said:


> No need to sue, I could just report them to the relevant authorities. This isn't the US.



and I doubt anything ever comes of it. lol


----------



## newtekie1 (Mar 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It might be this, a web debugging proxy and it hooked EGS because EGS has a webkit browser in it.
> 
> There's absolutely no evidence EGS invokes "fiddler" intentionally under normal circumstances.  That folder won't even exist on most systems.



You don't seem to be getting what the OP is showing there.  Fiddler is just a program that he has running on the computer.  EGS should not be querying it for any reason, yet it is.  Stop trying to focus on why Fiddler is there, and instead wonder why EGS is querying every EXE running on his system.


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## 64K (Mar 16, 2019)

I wonder why we haven't heard anything from Epic about sales of Exodus?

It could be because they aren't very good. It seems to me that Epic would be happy to announce great sales if they could.

Sometimes silence speaks the loudest.


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## INSTG8R (Mar 16, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> snip


Hard sales numbers aren’t opinion? I usually agree with you most of the time but, guh?


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## Valantar (Mar 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> and I doubt anything ever comes of it. lol


Perhaps not, but every complaint increases the likelihood of fines or other consequences being levied against those who infringe upon privacy laws. If they don't comply with the GDPR, they risk being barred from doing business in the EU and EEC. That's... not small fry.



INSTG8R said:


> Hard sales numbers aren’t opinion? I usually agree with you most of the time but, guh?


Yet since we don't have hard sales numbers, everything we have (including baseless speculations about the reasons for not publicizing sales numbers) is... well not necessarily opinion (speculation isn't necessarily an opinion), but close enough.


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## OneMoar (Mar 16, 2019)

As far as I am concerned EGS can die tomorrow and take every-game on its platform with it and nothing of value would be lost 

but can we cut the bs here this entire thing was started by some child with procmon and no clue how to use it


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## INSTG8R (Mar 16, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Yet since we don't have hard sales numbers, everything we have (including baseless speculations about the reasons for not publicizing sales numbers) is... well not necessarily opinion (speculation isn't necessarily an opinion), but close enough.


But nobody has given any opinion on the numbers but my opinion is they aren’t great after the Steam debacle and well, the nature of said platform choice. I’d go as far as saying Steam may stil have better sales numbers. It hit #1 in their sales charts when the platform switch and impending removal was announced.


----------



## Valantar (Mar 16, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> But nobody has given any opinion on the numbers but my opinion is they aren’t great after the Steam debacle and well, the nature of said platform choice. I’d go as far as saying Steam may stil have better sales numbers. It hit #1 in their sales charts when the platform switch and impending removal was announced.


Ahem.


64K said:


> I wonder why we haven't heard anything from Epic about sales of Exodus?
> 
> It could be because they aren't very good. It seems to me that Epic would be happy to announce great sales if they could.
> 
> Sometimes silence speaks the loudest.


What, then, would you call that, @INSTG8R ? I'm reasonably sure that qualifies as an opinion, if one presented in the form of a hypothesis (so far unsupported by evidence).


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## AmioriK (Mar 16, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> As far as I am concerned EGS can die tomorrow and *take every-game on its platform with it and nothing of value would be lost*


Exclusive or not, Metro Exodus is a _fantastic game_ and is very valuable IMO. It's upsetting to know that such a great game and work of art is being hurt by the greed of the publisher and/or Epic. I bought the game on the Epic Store because I want to support the developer, and I want to play the game right now, and it being available on only one store doesn't really bother me that much. My only issue with the deal is that it bothers a lot of other people, thus hurting sales.. Btw I am sure Exodus is selling well, especially in Eastern Europe where 4A is based. It's very popular over there.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> You don't seem to be getting what the OP is showing there.  Fiddler is just a program that he has running on the computer.  EGS should not be querying it for any reason, yet it is.  Stop trying to focus on why Fiddler is there, and instead wonder why EGS is querying every EXE running on his system.


fiddler.exe hooked EGS, not the other way around.  That's what debuggers, keyloggers, memory editors, etc. do.  When EGS invokes a call normally, the hooked application intercepts it.

Edit: QueryNameInfo in the first picture is the result of the application calling (for example) Process.GetProcesses(). All this means is that the application is aware that fiddler.exe is running.

When an application hooks another application, there's no obvious signs it happened.  I did this via hooking CheatEngine on to Discord while monitoring Discord.  The only hint is CheatEngine showing up in the QueryNameInfo list like above...

The second picture shows hooked Fiddler trying to read (I verified this: CreateFile is how DLLs of all kinds are called) shcore.dll and failing because that file is a part of Windows, not Fiddler.

Under normal circumstances, EpicGamesLauncher does LoadImage C:\Windows\System32\SHCore.dll twice, then tries to CreateFile D:\Epic Games\Launcher\Portal\Binaries\Win64\shcore.dll once and fails.  Presumably this is done so that the developer can overload it for debugging reasons.  What's particularly interesting is that is the exact same folder EpicGamesLauncher.exe is in.

So let's put it all together then, shall we?
1) Fiddler.exe is running on the system as demonstrated by the results of the GetProcesses result in EpicGamesLauncher.
2) Fiddler.exe likely hooked EpicGamesLauncher when it invoked its internal webkit browser.  From this point on, there's Fiddler.exe injected code running in EpicGamesLauncher memory.
3) shcore.dll is presumably loaded from the appropriate directory: C:\Windows\System32\SHCore.dll
4) Because fiddler.exe injected code invoked a call in SHCore.dll, EpicGamesLauncher was forced to search for an SHCore.dll in the same directory as fiddler.exe just as it has to search for SHCore.dll in its own executable folder.

TL;DR: Fiddler is to blame for all of this.  It has naught to do with EpicGamesLauncher, therefore, off topic.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 16, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Outside simply not using the service of course.



Complain.  It works.  Companies actually do want happy customers.



moproblems99 said:


> Truthfully, you don't have a lot of say about it here in the US.



Mostly because enough people aren't saying anything.

That said, this may not be an instance where it really is complaint worthy...



newtekie1 said:


> From what I can tell, Fiddler is not a program started by EGS, it is a program the person already has running on their system and EGS is trying to access that program for some reason.



I said that way earlier.  Fiddler is already installed and it's not BEING installed.


----------



## 64K (Mar 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Complain.  It works.  Companies actually do want happy customers.



With gaming it's a bit more complicated than that. A lot of gamers complain on web sites but they turn around and do the one thing that will ensure more abuse. They buy the next game on release before it's ready for release and full of bugs or worse pre-order. They buy games that are riddled with micro-transactions unless you want to grind for countless hours to get anywhere. In short, they complain and continue to buy garbage games.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 16, 2019)

64K said:


> With gaming it's a bit more complicated than that. A lot of gamers complain on web sites but they turn around and do the one thing that will ensure more abuse. They buy the next game on release before it's ready for release and full of bugs or worse pre-order. They buy games that are riddled with micro-transactions unless you want to grind for countless hours to get anywhere. In short, they complain and continue to buy garbage games.



The best thing of course would be to complain AND not use the product.  But someone asked for an altnernative method, so I said just complain, lol.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I said that way earlier.  Fiddler is already installed and it's not BEING installed.


More importantly, it's running in parallel to EpicGamesLauncher.  Operating system or user started fiddler first, then fiddler hooked EpicGamesLauncher when it started.

Assuming Fiddler is a legit web debugger and the computer operator wanted it running...there's no reason to be alarmed about anything presented.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I think this is the worst myth.  That people are powerless.  *They aren't*.


That probably applies more in a philosophical way, the plebs are more or less powerless. In the grand scheme of things gaming doesn't matter - on a macro level much of what we do is a function of the liberties, powers the rich & the powerful (elites) have afforded us. You could one day wake up as the enemy of the state & not be able do anything about it. In that sense we are more powerless than ever, at least on an individual level. The more nations grow, become rich & powerful - the more power is sucked out of that common man's hands.


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## NdMk2o1o (Mar 16, 2019)

Meh I have got rid of Epic launcher a few weeks ago as I reinstalled Windows on my SSD and my steam and Epic folder were installed onto a HDD to save me reinstalling my library every time I have to install Windows, Steam does this no problem, point the install to the HDD where library is already installed and it picks up the downloaded games no issues, Epic can't/won't do this and twice now it has made me download 20GB of data for no reason when the required files are already there on my D: drive, and yes it's a common problem.


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

given epic are now going to "fix" the launcher because it was spying on ppl. i think thats an additional reason for me to avoid them allong with scummy buisiness practice.

im just happy they decided to pay publishers/devs to pull games from competitors which meant id never use them so i dont have to care about any potential spying how ever minor or major it may be.
dont get me wrong, everything is spying on you.. that does not make it right though.


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## OneMoar (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> given epic are now going to "fix" the launcher because it was spying on ppl. i think thats an additional reason for me to avoid them allong with scummy buisiness practice.
> 
> im just happy they decided to pay publishers/devs to pull games from competitors which meant id never use them so i dont have to care about any potential spying how ever minor or major it may be.
> dont get me wrong, everything is spying on you.. that does not make it right though.


you still on that
its been explained in great detail that it was not spying on you


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

and yet they are fixing it. strange that


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## OneMoar (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> and yet they are fixing it. strange that


not really damage control because idiots can't understand basic concepts


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## 64K (Mar 17, 2019)

Tim Sweeney points to Steam with their Valve game exclusives and Origin with their exclusives to excuse what Epic is doing.
The thing is that the exclusives on Steam are Valve Published games and the exclusives on Origin are EA Published games. Neither Publisher is* paying* 3rd parties to make their games exclusive to their store. Now Ubisoft is crawling into bed with Epic. What happens when Epic is comfortable with the size of their store and the number of accounts? They do what Valve does and go back to charging the Publishers 20% to 30% of the transaction price for each game sold there.

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/tim-...urrent-and-future-epic-store-exclusive-games/


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2019)

64K said:


> Neither Publisher is* paying* 3rd parties to make their games exclusive to their store.


Epic Games Store is a distributor, not a publisher, and distributors always pay stakeholders for sales.  The only difference is that when Epic signs an exclusive, they are paying a guaranteed amount of sales up front so the developer can fast track finishing the game.  Think of it this way: Epic's exclusives are allowing games to be released a year earlier simply because they have the funding to finish a year ahead of schedule.  This is especially the case with indie games.  It is the hardest time ever to make a successful indie game.  Epic is helping developers by developers helping Epic.  The 21st century clearly requires a new way of funding game development and this might be it.



64K said:


> Now Ubisoft is crawling into bed with Epic.


Ubisoft has a track record of maximum exposure.  A lot of their games are on competing platforms with uPlay like Steam and Origin.  It makes sense that they would release on Epic Games Store as well.  Ubisoft doesn't have an exclusivity deal with Epic Games Store.



64K said:


> What happens when Epic is comfortable with the size of their store and the number of accounts?


Keep offering exclusivity contracts for guaranteed sales.  Only way I can see it stopping is if a court orders them to or they don't have the money to do it any more.



64K said:


> They do what Valve does and go back to charging the Publishers 20% to 30% of the transaction price for each game sold there.


Nope, contracts are signed.  Whatever stake Epic Games Store agreed to with the publisher of the game is the stake that persists.  If either party wants to change it, a new contract has to be drafted and agreed to.


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> not really damage control because idiots can't understand basic concepts


well when you read data from files on a users computer without permission, without the application permission, When there are Other more transparent and less intrusive methods that would not also send data such as login keys, then cache it and send it to your servers. 
There is some thing wrong.. 

Sure you can say 
"epic says they dont take all the data in the files. And the reason it does it in this manner is because of a rush to get the launcher working" 
but if they are only fixing it because it was noticed whilst admitting it is wrong to do then there is something amiss. 

i do find this approach of 
"yeah epic was caught ripping data from files they should not even be able to access in the way they access it even With permission. and Sure they should have accessed the data they wanted AFTER asking for permission, using the existing api that would ensure private data was not also transferred. But hey they say they didnt take any private data. and they will now fix it because they know its wrong. So i believe them"  is a bit backwards.. 

lets see if it works for me. 
I know you see that i have written this post. and many other posts. and it seems that i am disagreeing with you. Although you can see that i am disagreeing with you and its blatant to see i am because i could just have agreed with you. I will In the future agree with you, so rest assured i never disagreed with you. 

(pretty sure that argument will work on you, if epic being caught red handed ripping data, admitting they did it in a manner they should not, saying they will fix it because they know they are in the wrong But they say "hey we did all that and did it without any permission but we didnt take any of the private data" Is an argument that works on you)
I have to imagine the GDPR is something that covers this.
We will see how it ends up eventually.


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## 64K (Mar 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Epic Games Store is a distributor, not a publisher, and distributors always pay stakeholders for sales.  The only difference is that when Epic signs an exclusive, they are paying a guaranteed amount of sales up front so the developer can fast track finishing the game.  Think of it this way: Epic's exclusives are allowing games to be released a year earlier simply because they have the funding to finish a year ahead of schedule.  This is especially the case with indie games.  It is the hardest time ever to make a successful indie game.  Epic is helping developers by developers helping Epic.  The 21st century clearly requires a new way of funding game development and this might be it.



Epic Games Store is a distributor and not a Publisher. That's true but that's also true of Steam, Origin, GOG, Uplay and the Microsoft Store. I'm not sure why you make the distinction because each of those companies are owned and run by the Publishers including Epic which is a Publisher and Developer. Also, the news of what transpired with Exodus was all over the news when it happened and there was no mention of paying Deep Silver a year ago to make Exodus a timed exclusive on the Epic Store. That was made at the last minute when Exodus was already completed and ready to go for sale. The money didn't help 4A Games to complete Exodus quicker.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Ubisoft has a track record of maximum exposure.  A lot of their games are on competing platforms with uPlay like Steam and Origin.  It makes sense that they would release on Epic Games Store as well.  Ubisoft doesn't have an exclusivity deal with Epic Games Store.



The Division 2 is is an exclusive to Uplay which is understandable because Ubisoft is the Publisher but the only other digital distributor where you can buy it from is........Epic Store. Why?



FordGT90Concept said:


> Keep offering exclusivity contracts for guaranteed sales.  Only way I can see it stopping is if a court orders them to or they don't have the money to do it any more.



Epic isn't breaking any laws with the exclusivity deals they have made with Deep Silver and Ubisoft. There's nothing to take to court. There is a way to stop this if gamers don't sign up for an account right now and buy these games there. If Epic does manage to stop the ant-consumer practices and build their store up like Steam and Origin and Uplay did then I will will sign up for an account at that time but this buying their way into the distribution world is shitty.


----------



## Vayra86 (Mar 17, 2019)

64K said:


> With gaming it's a bit more complicated than that. A lot of gamers complain on web sites but they turn around and do the one thing that will ensure more abuse. They buy the next game on release before it's ready for release and full of bugs or worse pre-order. They buy games that are riddled with micro-transactions unless you want to grind for countless hours to get anywhere. In short, they complain and continue to buy garbage games.



That's because gamers are not a hive-mind controlled collective. They are individuals with their opinions, misguided or not, influenced by whatever. Its like the real world and for example politics. People have a habit of voting for the exact bloke that will NOT bring them what they really want. Call it manipulation or stupidity, but it happens (and usually a combination of the two) and is historically very well documented. And even despite all of that, we still generally, in the greater scheme of things, move forward. Also in gaming.

This Epic store-gate is just another event in a long line of changes. It may work out well and it may not and if it doesn't, something else will replace it. People blow this way out of proportion.


----------



## 64K (Mar 17, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> That's because gamers are not a hive-mind controlled collective.



Most gamers are exactly that. Spend some time on a gaming website for validation of the hive-mindedness. Most also lack self-control on when they make purchases and they seem to have very short memories of getting screwed over and over by certain Publishers. It's somewhat better in the PC gaming crowd but not by much anymore.


----------



## Vayra86 (Mar 17, 2019)

64K said:


> Most gamers are exactly that. Spend some time on a gaming website for validation of the hive-mindedness. Most also lack self-control on when they make purchases and they seem to have very short memories of getting screwed over and over by certain Publishers. It's somewhat better in the PC gaming crowd but not by much anymore.



What people write on the internet =/= reality. This 'hive mind' apparently still manages enough diversity to make gaming more varied than its ever been. What you're seeing on a gaming website is a tiny slice of everything, and not necessarily a representative one. The amount of different types of games you can buy today is unmatched. Strange then, how that works if everyone's a sheep in the herd. PC gaming has always been diverse and this hasn't changed. The only thing that hás changed is that big companies have found out how to use public opinion and influencers to good effect. You can either get dragged into that or you can distance yourself from it. Takes some experience in life to detect and avoid.

These days, several 'hypes' can coexist, the playerbase is simply that large. Even though a large group seems to flock from one game to another (case in point: Battle Royale releases) there is still a huge market for all sorts of other stuff. When it comes to single player games, that is even more true than with MP, because you don't depend on anyone else to come along. It remains to be seen how that affects Metro and its sales...


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> and yet they are fixing it. strange that


They are improving it. People forget how basic Steam was when it started out.  It was continual additions and improvements over time that got you what you have now.  Were you complaining back then that Gabe was spying and fixing the launcher?


----------



## 64K (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> They are improving it. People forget how basic Steam was when it started out.  It was continual additions and improvements over time that got you what you have now.  We’re you complaining back then that Gabe was spying and fixing the launcher?



That's true. Steam was pretty much despised when it launched. People were calling the Steam app a virus but Valve continued to invest in Steam to make it better and better and now Steam is much like by gamers.


----------



## INSTG8R (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> They are improving it. People forget how basic Steam was when it started out.  It was continual additions and improvements over time that got you what you have now.  Were you complaining back then that Gabe was spying and fixing the launcher?


15 years ago at least I’d guess now? Certainly doesn’t give Epic any kind of pass to realease such a sub standard service TODAY when everyone else’s have at least some parity of basic features of which Epic has none and being the newest they have had all the time in the world to do theirs and can clearly see what everyone else is offering.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> 15 years ago at least I’d guess now? Certainly doesn’t give Epic any kind of pass to realease such a sub standard service TODAY when everyone else’s have at least some parity of basic features of which Epic has none and being the newest they have had all the time in the world to do theirs and can clearly see what everyone else is offering.


I dare say, if it is so easy, perhaps you should do it.  Do you not recall how long it took Ubisoft to get Uplay to be pretty good?  And how long has it taken EA to get Origin to be be barely passable?  The implementation of this being done well is surely not easy, otherwise Ubi and EA could have put out great products overnight with Valve having forged the way. 

It doesn’t work that way in reality.  This is true no matter the product or industry.  Newcomers doing something well the first time is an anamoly. Just look at Korean car company Hyundai.  By your logic, because so many other companies had made cars for years, and the Japanese being models of how to do it, Hyundai shouldn’t have struggled to put out a decent product it’s first few years, just because other companies had been doing it for years.


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## INSTG8R (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I dare say, if it is so easy, perhaps you should do it.  Do you not recall how long it took Ubisoft to get Uplay to be pretty good?  And how long has it taken EA to get Origin to be be barely passable?  The implementation of this being done well is surely not easy, otherwise Ubi and EA could have put out great products overnight with Valve having forged the way.
> 
> It doesn’t work that way in reality.  This is true no matter the product or industry.  Newcomers doing something well the first time is an anamoly. Just look at Korean car company Hyundai.  By your logic, because so many other companies had made cars for years, and the Japanese being models of how to do it, Hyundai shouldn’t have struggled to put out a decent product it’s first few years, just because other companies had been doing it for years.


That’s really splitting hairs now isn’t it? There’s no reason to put out a “Launcher” that’s so basic now. Heck even low ball launchers for Star Trek Online or Defiance have more features. Bethesda’s is pretty substandard too so Epic isn’t the only guilty one either.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Mar 17, 2019)

I do not see the epic store failing, anti-consumer practices are a part of business.  Add enough marketing and people will buy into anti-consumer practices no problem, history is full of these examples.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 17, 2019)

yakk said:


> I do not see the epic store failing



The Epic store will not fail as long as Unreal engine remains popular.  I wouldn't be surprised if they don't start putting into contracts language for using the Epic Store if using Unreal.


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## protain (Mar 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> More importantly, it's running in parallel to EpicGamesLauncher.  Operating system or user started fiddler first, then fiddler hooked EpicGamesLauncher when it started.
> 
> Assuming Fiddler is a legit web debugger and the computer operator wanted it running...there's no reason to be alarmed about anything presented.



Just want to chime in here as I use Fiddler quite often for work, Fiddler does not hook into anything to work. It installs a root cert into the cert store, amends the proxy details in the browser to pass traffic through it and then carries out "man in the middle" style decryption of SSL packets using the root cert to resign the data if you request it to do this... exactly the same as any enterprise-grade web filter/proxy on the market does.

The guy running the procmon was probably trying to work out what traffic was heading for Epic's servers and what those packets contained, which is exactly what I'd use Fiddler for if I thought something was passing my data over the internet that it maybe shouldn't be.


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> They are improving it. People forget how basic Steam was when it started out.  It was continual additions and improvements over time that got you what you have now.  Were you complaining back then that Gabe was spying and fixing the launcher?



epic ceo quote


> You guys are right that we ought to only access the localconfig.vdf file after the user chooses to import Steam friends. The current implementation is a remnant left over from our rush to implement social features in the early days of Fortnite. *It's actually my fault* for pushing the launcher team to support it super quickly and then identifying that we had to change it. Since this issue came to the forefront we're going to fix it.
> 
> We don't use the Steam API because we work to minimize the number of third-party libraries we include in our products due to security and privacy concerns



valve quote


> We are looking into what information the Epic launcher collects from Steam.
> 
> The Steam Client locally saves data such as the list of games you own, your friends list and saved login tokens (similar to information stored in web browser cookies). This is private user data, stored on the user's home machine and is not intended to be used by other programs or uploaded to any 3rd party service.



Now you can say "improving" But the ceo says fix.
you can say its not spying and stealing data. But epic's ceo and valve say it is.

Why they also has to monitor AND report what apps you are running is beyond me.
They CLAIM its to prevent pushing updates when the system is in use. But there is no reason to send that data any where to stop a update.
personally have not looked in to that any further so il leave that as it is.

What you want to be true and what is true arent always the same. And when they have already admitted culpability  "after being caught" but then Deny any other wrong doing due to lack of any evidence. it all just tends to stink. I know the world is not black and white, but some things even the slightest shade of grey is bad enough.

like i said though everything is spying on you. But epic just had to go about it in a manner that skipped a purpous made api Which just so happened to also give them access to private user data that they should not be able to access, and not only that they also did it without asking for user permission which as far as im aware is 100% exactly what the GDPR is there to fine them for.

p.s
I only started using steam 4 years ago because it did suck. ( i have been a member of this forum longer than i have used steam) so 15 years of sucking and me not using it and i survived just fine without it.
Epic though. well i cant forse me using it


----------



## Super XP (Mar 17, 2019)

Isn't Epic and Steam in direct competition? The fact they are accessing Stream Data should be some sort of breach of privacy and/or terms of aggreement? or something in that nature.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2019)

64K said:


> Also, the news of what transpired with Exodus was all over the news when it happened and there was no mention of paying Deep Silver a year ago to make Exodus a timed exclusive on the Epic Store.


We can only speculate on that matter but if I had to guess, Deep Silver used the guaranteed sales money stipulated in the contract to pay for marketing in the last few months before release.  I do believe Deep Silver's main motivation for signing a contract with Epic was to take advantage of the lower rate Epic keeps compared to Steam and GOG.



64K said:


> The Division 2 is is an exclusive to Uplay which is understandable because Ubisoft is the Publisher but the only other digital distributor where you can buy it from is........Epic Store. Why?


Because 17% Epic share is reasonable.  It's probably quite similar to what Ubisoft figures distributing costs on uPlay.



protain said:


> Just want to chime in here as I use Fiddler quite often for work, Fiddler does not hook into anything to work. It installs a root cert into the cert store, amends the proxy details in the browser to pass traffic through it and then carries out "man in the middle" style decryption of SSL packets using the root cert to resign the data if you request it to do this... exactly the same as any enterprise-grade web filter/proxy on the market does.
> 
> The guy running the procmon was probably trying to work out what traffic was heading for Epic's servers and what those packets contained, which is exactly what I'd use Fiddler for if I thought something was passing my data over the internet that it maybe shouldn't be.


Then perhaps it isn't the same "fiddler."



Super XP said:


> Isn't Epic and Steam in direct competition? The fact they are accessing Stream Data should be some sort of breach of privacy and/or terms of aggreement? or something in that nature.


Lots of applications pull information from Steam.  If the data is truly sensitive, the onus is on Steam to encrypt it.  Steam doesn't because they want other developers to use it.

Permission only has to be requested if it's getting the information through Steam's web API.


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> They are improving it. People forget how basic Steam was when it started out. It was continual additions and improvements over time that got you what you have now. Were you complaining back then that Gabe was spying and fixing the launcher?


There's only one very-very-very big difference: there was nothing significant before Steam, so they had to build it ground-up.

Epic Store, on the other hand wasn't something that just spontaneously started overnight, and definitely had lots of resources and time for this project. First off, one of their current directors (Epic Store, I mean), is none other than the founder of Steamspy, Sergey Galyonkin. They already had a shitton of data on games, users, purchasing patterns, behavior, hardware stats etc. Second, is a rarely mentioned involvement of Tencent, which definitely has experience in game distribution platforms (and they've been around almost as long as Steam).

So, a simple "whoopsie" just doesn't cut it. They did it on purpose, cause Steam API has certain restrictions regarding use cases, and "being a direct competitor" is probably one of them. Plus, Valve's web API only allows to view public profiles, so the excuse of "fixing" the friends list sync is even more bogus.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2019)

It's not clear what, if anything, EpicGamesLauncher is doing with the localconfig.vdf other than copying it into memory.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Mar 17, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> The Epic store will not fail as long as Unreal engine remains popular.  I wouldn't be surprised if they don't start putting into contracts language for using the Epic Store if using Unreal.



I wouldn't be surprised by Epic requiring exclusive online store rights either, it would be in character of something Epic would do.  Nothing Valve could do about it,  except maybe massively update their game engine to complete and release a slew of new inhouse games themselves. 

Though Microsoft might take exception to Epic depending on how their xbox/pc business plan evolves.  Upcoming World War Z for example took Steam off their website & distribution list and replaced it with Epic & Xbox games store.


----------



## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Lots of applications pull information from Steam.  If the data is truly sensitive, the onus is on Steam to encrypt it.  Steam doesn't because they want other developers to use it.
> 
> Permission only has to be requested if it's getting the information through Steam's web API.



that entirely not true.  if i provide you with a blank text document, which you then populate with data and private information,
It is not your fault if software decided to read that text file and send it back to a server without permission.

the API is there so Users CAN if they want to allow a 3rd party to access data about them, this data via the api deliberately is  Minus some confidential information such as log in keys.

If you give epic permission to read text files full of private info Then that is your fault.

if you tell steam they can share data with a 3rd party and they provide a api that allows 3rd party(s) to take that data + confidential info that should not ave been available. then that is steams fault.

If epic installs on your computer accesses a file they have no right to access access it cache it and send it back to their server without asking for any permissions at all. Then thats epics fault  and its no more than data mining malware at that point. (and that is what they did since fortnight was released untill they were caught just the other day)

P.s
epic says they send the data back to their servers but they say its only the friends list they take..
But given they knew this was not the correct way to do it, and they should have used the api, not just start accessing random private files on users computers without permission.
That they also knew they should ask for permission before they did anything of the sort and did not.
And they are  ONLY changing it now because they were caught...
I call bull shit.
having said that.. They could be telling the truth. 
valve may be able to confirm this. But either way not asking for permissions is a gdpr violation. and that can come with a fine of up to 4% of the previous years annual turn over.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> But either way not asking for permissions is a gdpr violation.


You agree to the EULA when you install it: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/eula

Specifically: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/privacypolicy


> Technical information about your computer, device, hardware, or software you use to access the Internet or our services, such as IP address or other transactional or identifier information for your device (such as device make and model, information about device operating systems and browsers, or other device or system related specifications);
> 
> Usage information and statistics about your interaction with our websites, games, game engines, and applications, which may include the URLs of our websites that you have visited, URLs of referring and exiting pages, page views, time spent on a page, number of clicks, platform type, the application you used or the game you played, how long you used or played it and when, and other usage statistics;
> 
> ...


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> That probably applies more in a philosophical way, the plebs are more or less powerless.



I subscribe to the idea they are only powerless when the majority of them are content to be so, but yes, this is encroaching into philosophy.  Either way my point stands.  Want to change it?  Doing anything is better than doing nothing and acting all "oh, we're powerless, shut up you wankers."


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> epic ceo quote
> 
> 
> valve quote
> ...


Get something straight bud, I’m not defending Epic. I am not saying I don’t want this or that to be true.  I am on the side of evenhandedness and fair assessments.  I try to give every side a fair shake.

You want to talk spying? Windows does it. Steam does it. Origin does it.  GoogleBing does it. Most online retailers do it to some degree.  You picking out Epic as some evil titan is comical. In fact agreement is likely given while people skip through the EULA when installing Epic.

What I am saying is that people complaining about the quality of the Epic launcher and complaining that there might be some spying elements (most debunked by @FordGT90Concept) have extremely short memories.

Most of this seems to be brought on by people still being butthurt by Epic gaining a Metro exclusive for a year due to their deal (last minute?) with Deep Silver.  I’m not defending Epic. I’m defending fairness, and treating them just like each of the other game  launchers have been judged.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 17, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> you still on that
> its been explained in great detail that it was not spying on you



Depends what you mean by spying.  It wasn't looking at fiddler.  It WAS querying processes but that could just be anticheat.  In that case any anticheat spies on it's user, really.


----------



## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You agree to the EULA when you install it: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/eula
> 
> Specifically: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/privacypolicy



Eula does not count under GDPR, neither is it nor has it ever been a legally binding contract, and it has never and will never be able to supersede any form of law.
and that does not even  say it will be taking private information from files friends lists from other launchers, or potentially stealing your log in keys for the launcher they are trying to be being direct rivals too..
so even If a EULA was legally binding, and covered them under the GDPR. The eula doesnt say its gonna be doing what it was caught doing And so they are now "fixing" it



rtwjunkie said:


> Get something straight bud, I’m not defending Epic. I am not saying I don’t want this or that to be true.  I am on the side of evenhandedness and fair assessments.  I try to give every side a fair shake.
> 
> You want to talk spying? Windows does it. Steam does it. Origin does it.  GoogleBing does it. Most online retailers do it to some degree.  You picking out Epic as some evil titan is comical.
> 
> ...



its easier to be even handed when you do some research..
i have said multiple time in this thread alone everything spies on you.
but you chose to call it "improve" when even epic's ceo say its fixing Thats not being even handed thats being the devils advocate which is not a game you should play without 1st making sure you know what deck you are playing with.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> Eula does not count under GDPR, neither is it a legally binding contract, and Neither does that say it will be taking private information from files friends lists from other launchers, or potentially stealing your log in keys for the launcher they are trying to be being direct rivals to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you improve something then it likely wasn’t right in the first place.  They ALSO listed many IMPROVEMENTS that will make their launcher a little more modern.  You say you watched Steam for years before joining. Then if that is so, you surely remember that many many people were not happy with them for many things, from not working right to spying.  Guess they never needed to be “fixed” either, huh?


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> If you improve something then it likely wasn’t right in the first place.  They ALSO listed many IMPROVEMENTS that will make their launcher a little more modern.  You say you watched Steam for years before joining. Then if that is so, you surely remember that many many people were not happy with them for many things, from not working right to spying.  Guess they never needed to be “fixed” either, huh?



Oh god, as a privacy advocate the early steam hate was unreal.

It's things like this that make legit attacks on privacy harder to defend against.  Because I gurantee you someone will point at this later as an example of how "we just whine about crap that ends up working out just fine"


----------



## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

Never remember steam needing to fix the fact that they were accessing my game-spy data files that contained my login details and then sent them back to their servers without asking for permission.. (because it never happened)

I remember them "improving" by adding friends support, the ability to share games.. and general stability issues. Thats an improvement.

Not accessing files that contain private data and logon information for a direct rival Isnt something that should ever need "improving" because it should never happen and the fact that it did and you want to defend it is disturbing.

sure you can say:
"well jimmy stopped stealing my car and crashing it in to baby's. that's an improvement" 
but then you have taken the stance of arguing over the semantics of the case rather than the issue which means you already know enough for us to stop having this conversation, as you will only be taking a deliberatly contrary stance for the sake of saving face.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> Eula does not count under GDPR, neither is it nor has it ever been a legally binding contract, and it has never and will never be able to supersede any form of law.


As long as the terms aren't unlawful (usually an uphill climb for the challenger), courts generally uphold the EULA as an enforceable contract.

The only reason why GDPR exists is so EU has another way to fine corporations.



Shambles1980 said:


> and that does not even  say it will be taking private information from files friends lists from other launchers, or potentially stealing your log in keys for the launcher they are trying to be being direct rivals too..


Copying doesn't constitute theft.



Shambles1980 said:


> The eula doesnt say its gonna be doing what it was caught doing And so they are now "fixing" it


Many points of the EULA can be stretched to reading information from Steam.

It's very possible that reading localconfig.vdf is associated with an experimental feature in EGL that shouldn't have been published yet (e.g. assistance in populating friends list) that wasn't disabled in the public release.  Still, not overly concerned about it because I don't care that Epic Games has my friend list, the games I own, and the last time I played them.


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## R-T-B (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> Never remember steam needing to fix the fact that they were accessing my game-spy data files that contained my login details and then sent them back to their servers without asking for permission.. (because it never happened)



Probably because no one ever cared about game-spy enough to bother.  If they had a reason to, I have no doubt they would've done some kind of integration attempt.



FordGT90Concept said:


> The only reason why GDPR exists is so EU has another way to fine corporations.



That's one way to look at it.  I choose to think it has something to do with sending a message we have the right to own our own data, but I know, I'm such a frigin hippie.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> the fact that it did and you want to defend it is disturbing.


Find it disturbing all you want. I am a huge privacy advocate, but I am also a realist.  I know life is extremely hard to live in the modern world if we try to push total privacy on our lives.  I also know that many people that skip right through the EULA’s for every piece of software they install are some of the first to cry about their lack of privacy vs the big bad corporation.


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## Shambles1980 (Mar 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Copying doesn't constitute theft.



collect all the bank account information you can copy it down nice and safe, credit card numbers, and so on. and see what the police think about you copying and storing peoples bank info without permission Even if you never use it for anything other than decoration.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2019)

Shambles1980 said:


> collect all the bank account information you can copy it down nice and safe, credit card numbers, and so on. and see what the police think about you copying and storing peoples bank info without permission Even if you never use it for anything other than decoration.


Not theft until something is stolen. In your example, funds withdrawn.

localconfig.vdf doesn't have any information of that sort anyway.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Not theft until something is stolen. In your example, funds withdrawn.



Even that doesn't matter in my locality.  My CC got popped and the police said they would do nothing because my CC company returned the money so nothing was stolen from me.  LOL

Also, if we want to get semantic, TPU is tracking everything you do as well seeing as how they have Google Analytics running.  So, by that measure, TPU is helping Google track and build a profile on you.


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## Super XP (Mar 17, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Get something straight bud, I’m not defending Epic. I am not saying I don’t want this or that to be true.  I am on the side of evenhandedness and fair assessments.  I try to give every side a fair shake.
> 
> You want to talk spying? Windows does it. Steam does it. Origin does it.  GoogleBing does it. Most online retailers do it to some degree.  You picking out Epic as some evil titan is comical. In fact agreement is likely given while people skip through the EULA when installing Epic.
> 
> ...


Its all good. After the lack luster Metro Exodus sales I'm sure this will end up being a mistake not to allow the game access from both Steam and Epic.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Its all good. After the lack luster Metro Exodus sales I'm sure this will end up being a mistake not to allow the game access from both Steam and Epic.


It would be nice to see some actual sales figures.


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## Super XP (Mar 18, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> It would be nice to see some actual sales figures.


Agreed. 
I was just speculating seeing how Epic doesn't have a large enough reach as Steam has.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> I was just speculating seeing how Epic doesn't have a large enough reach as Steam has.



Can you explain how Steam has more reach?


----------



## Super XP (Mar 18, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Can you explain how Steam has more reach?


I rather not give such information out when it's quite readily available online. 
Steam has over 90 Million monthly active users. The entire Metro Series was launched on Steam.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> I rather not give such information out when it's quite readily available online.
> Steam has over 90 Million monthly active users. The entire Metro Series was launched on Steam.



Are you saying that Epic can't reach these 90 million people?  Like those 90 million somehow have no idea that Metro Exodus still exists and is for sale?


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## Super XP (Mar 18, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Are you saying that Epic can't reach these 90 million people?  Like those 90 million somehow have no idea that Metro Exodus still exists and is for sale?


I've already answered this question. *You* are saying Epic can't reach these 90 million people. I said no such thing.
Anyhow, Epic's is nowhere near the pull Steam has nor does it offer anything better than Steam offers. Perhaps sometime in the future it will match or exceed Steam, till that time, Steam is the better platform that offers the most games and is more stable.






And I'll throw this out there, the sentiments of over 37K people and climbing.


> They have terrible security, terrible customer service, the games are more expensive due to epics regional pricing, you cant play games offline, no social features like chat, no screenshots, no controller support, they broke EU laws, they have really scummy tactics.
> There's *no achievements, no cloud saves, no game forums, Epic makes you pay for a transaction fee when buying games, they pay for exclusive rights to try and force you to use their store, they also refuse refunds even if you meet criteria.* Then there's no users reviews, no linux support.
> This just shows that Epic only cares about the money and nothing else. They're trying to compete with steam but are failing. Even Valve thinks its unfair. Get your store together Epic Games.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> I rather not give such information out when it's quite readily available online.
> Steam has over 90 Million monthly active users. The entire Metro Series was launched on Steam.


Fortnite had 200 million players (all platforms) in November 2018:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/746230/fortnite-players/
Guess how they play on Windows...

On top of that, all Unreal Engine 4 developers have EpicGamesLauncher installed because that's what keeps the dev tools up to date.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> I've already answered this question. *You* are saying Epic can't reach these 90 million people. I said no such thing.





Super XP said:


> I was just speculating seeing how Epic doesn't have a large enough reach as Steam has.



You clearly said Epic doesn't have the reach.  Which is silly.  Epic has the same reach as every other store on the internet - which is everyone that has internet access.  Now, some people may not buy Metro because of whatever reason they choose but it has nothing to do with not having the reach.

And since you are talking about Metro, which is a single player game, the only feature on that list that matters is cloud saves.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Fortnite had 200 million players (all platforms) in November 2018:
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/746230/fortnite-players/
> Guess how they play on Windows...



Precisely.


----------



## Super XP (Mar 18, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> You clearly said Epic doesn't have the reach.  Which is silly.  Epic has the same reach as every other store on the internet - which is everyone that has internet access.  Now, some people may not buy Metro because of whatever reason they choose but it has nothing to do with not having the reach.
> 
> And since you are talking about Metro, which is a single player game, the only feature on that list that matters is cloud saves.
> 
> ...


Total number of registered players? That can't decrease correct? lol. I'll guarantee you won't see 200 million active monthly users 
Once again you misunderstand my simple point. How many Metro games were launched on Epic Store? I know of 4 that were released on Steam. Metro 2033 (Redux) and Metro Last Light (Redux). My point is those that purchased these previous games are most likely going to purchase a 3rd installment. Does Epic have that reach? I don't think so, but seeing the bad publicity they've gotten lately its basically free advertising for them. Anyhow, who in the right mind would install something so incomplete and incompetent is beyond me.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Total number of registered players? That can't decrease correct? lol. I'll guarantee you won't see 200 million active monthly users
> Once again you misunderstand my simple point. How many Metro games were launched on Epic Store? I know of 4 that were released on Steam. Metro 2033 (Redux) and Metro Last Light (Redux). My point is those that purchased these previous games are most likely going to purchase a 3rd installment. Does Epic have that reach? I don't think so, but seeing the bad publicity they've gotten lately its basically free advertising for them. Anyhow, who in the right mind would install something so incomplete and incompetent is beyond me.



If it allows me to play the game, it has served its purpose.  How is it any different than 'ye olde' days when you had to install via a cd and every game had its own launcher?  It isn't.  I'm sure people aren't going to buy it until it comes to Steam.  More power to them for standing up for what they believe in.  However, I find it silly they aren't buying it because a single player game doesn't have a friends list.  Just seems...silly.  But, that is their prerogative.

I agree Metro will not have 200 million users.  It isn't going to get 90 million on Steam either.  I'd also bet that the majority of players will just play the game because they don't give two flying farts what store it is on.


----------



## Super XP (Mar 18, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> If it allows me to play the game, it has served its purpose.  How is it any different than 'ye olde' days when you had to install via a cd and every game had its own launcher?  It isn't.  I'm sure people aren't going to buy it until it comes to Steam.  More power to them for standing up for what they believe in.  However, I find it silly they aren't buying it because a single player game doesn't have a friends list.  Just seems...silly.  But, that is their prerogative.
> 
> I agree Metro will not have 200 million users.  It isn't going to get 90 million on Steam either.  I'd also bet that the majority of players just will just play the game because they don't give two flying farts what store it is on.


I truly hope an alternative Game Store comes out to directly compete with STEAM. Because we need fair competition. Epic may be that special storefront one day, but it has a long way to go. I just don't like the tactics used to remove the game off Steam and exclusively offer it only on Epic. That rubs me and many others the wrong way. Anyhow, 
I know Metro is a single player game, that is actually the reason why I play the previous 2. I am not too fond about MMO, though some like L4D2 I don't mind, its fun and most of my friends are on it.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 18, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I subscribe to the idea they are only powerless when the majority of them are content to be so, but yes, this is encroaching into philosophy.  Either way my point stands.  Want to change it?  *Doing anything is better than doing nothing* and acting all "oh, we're powerless, shut up you wankers."


Of course but how much of what we do or we're able to pull off, that still depends on the people in that seat of power or to be more precise the system - which all of us are beholden to. What happened to that equifax scandal, was anyone convicted? What about FB & CA, the onion is yet to be fully peeled off that one. The 2008 meltdown among many such other scandals? I'm not even touching the (geo)political gaffes of the last century.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 18, 2019)

Super XP said:


> I truly hope an alternative Game Store comes out to directly compete with STEAM. Because we need fair competition. Epic may be that special storefront one day, but it has a long way to go. I just don't like the tactics used to remove the game off Steam and exclusively offer it only on Epic. That rubs me and many others the wrong way. Anyhow,
> I know Metro is a single player game, that is actually the reason why I play the previous 2. I am not too fond about MMO, though some like L4D2 I don't mind, its fun and most of my friends are on it.



Everybody has their reasons for what they want.  I just want to sit down and play the game.  If it launches the game, I'm happy.


----------



## AmioriK (Mar 18, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> That probably applies more in a philosophical way, the plebs are more or less powerless. In the grand scheme of things gaming doesn't matter - on a macro level much of what we do is a function of the liberties, powers the rich & the powerful (elites) have afforded us. You could one day wake up as the enemy of the state & not be able do anything about it. In that sense we are more powerless than ever, at least on an individual level. The more nations grow, become rich & powerful - the more power is sucked out of that common man's hands.


You calling me a pleb m8?

Who am I kidding, I'm a pleb. :<


----------



## 64K (Mar 18, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> It would be nice to see some actual sales figures.



I would like that as well. The only thing I can find is that the game is selling very well. Much better than Last Light but most of those sales are on PS4. I can't find anything on PC sales. Even then we would have to back out the pre-orders on Steam to know what the sales were on Epic Store.



Super XP said:


> I've already answered this question. *You* are saying Epic can't reach these 90 million people. I said no such thing.
> Anyhow, Epic's is nowhere near the pull Steam has nor does it offer anything better than Steam offers. Perhaps sometime in the future it will match or exceed Steam, till that time, Steam is the better platform that offers the most games and is more stable.
> 
> View attachment 118904
> ...



In fairness to Epic they do have a Roadmap for improvements and they give specific time frames for the improvements to be implemented:

"_According to the roadmap, Epic Games has recently implemented a Store Search feature, Free Game Notification, Code Redemption improvements, Collections and Bundles, an Offline mode, Pre-Loading and Regional Pricing._

_In the next three months, Epic Games aims to implement the ability to search by genre or tag, make some improvements to the Offline Mode, overhaul its Install Management “Under the Hood”, add Store Video Hosting, re-design the Store page, improve DLC support, add/enable Cloud Saves, implement add-on purchase checks and improve patch sizes._

_Epic’s mid term goals (4 to 6 months from now) are to enable User Reviews, add Wishlists, improve the Newsfeed and Follow features, implement additional Payment Methods and Currencies, as well as Player Play Time Tracking, add Mod support for games, enable an Epic Games Overlay and make some improvements to the Library._

_Last but not least, Epic’s long term goals are to add Achievements, Shopping Cart, Direct Carrier Billing and overhaul the Social functionalities!_"

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/epic...loud-saves-mod-support-achievements-and-more/


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 18, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Can you explain how Steam has more reach?


For once, it has people like me and their friends (this is called "guaranteed auditory", or "loyal fanbase").
\



The only reason I don't have exodus, is because I don't do pre-orders. Last one was "Shadow of Mordor" and it took nearly 2.5 years to get it from "sucks" to "works", since every DLC broke the game for me.
I'll exercice patience and wait 'till 2020 for proper Steam release.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 18, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> What happened to that equifax scandal, was anyone convicted?



Because people didn't see the effects immediately, nor did it occur near election time.  Natural reaction.  Sad but true.  If there had been true outrage near an election something would've happened.  If there had been enough outrage it would've happened whether or not there was an election time, but that takes a lot more outrage than that is likely to generate.



R0H1T said:


> What about FB & CA, the onion is yet to be fully peeled off that one.



Because as pathetic as it is, people think they need those companies (social media).  They will never bite the metaphorical hand that feeds them their cute cat pics.


----------



## Valantar (Mar 22, 2019)

So just to follow up on my request to Epic for any and all information they had collected on me - they delivered. They did their due diligence, requiring me to confirm some stuff before providing any data (hey, someone at least pretends to care about security!), and provided a PDF with a clear and concise overview of my account info: display name, first and last name, account ID, account status, date of account creation, list of failed logins, any registered addresses, devices, sessions, IP addresses, user names for linked external accounts (and region for my PSN user), account history (a list of significant account actions - linking of external accounts, creation of the account, etc.), "entitlements" (the stuff I own through the Epic store, I guess?), a list of the agreements I've accepted and the date and time of this, payment info, tax info, transaction history (free games don't count as transactions, apparently), and code redemptions.

To sum up: this contained nothing I haven't directly provided them with myself. Certainly no usage logs or system data.

They also sent a .zip file containing the files "profile.html" and "profile.json". The json file contains this: "[ ]". Yeah, that's it. The html contains the necessary html code to make the background black and print "No Profile Data Available".

Of course, trusting this to be the end of things requires a few assumptions:
a) that Epic is actually sending me _all_ the data they have.
b) that the short time I've had the app open is enough for any hidden shenanigans to activate itself.

So, tl;dr: they were helpful and did indeed send over the required data, and none of it looks fishy. On the other hand, there's no way of knowing if they're omitting anything.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 9, 2019)

They got this fixed.  EpicGamesLauncher.exe is no longer looking any deeper at Steam other than checking the registry that it is installed.


----------



## 64K (Apr 10, 2019)

Sweeney has made a few interesting tweets in the last few days to address some concerns from the PC gaming community:

"_Tencent has no access to customer data. The Terms of Service references data shared between Epic’s wholly owned international subsidiaries (which exist to process purchases and pay tax around the world). Tencent is an investor only and is not covered by that language._"

"_Investors have access to Epic’s financial statements. For an example what’s in a company’s financial statement, look up EA’s financial statement online (it’s publicly available). Investors do not have access to Epic customer data._"

Concerning the security breach that has been pointed to by a lot of gamers as a reason to avoid the Epic Store:

"_Epic Games login data has not been leaked. Rather, hackers use databases of email address and password combinations that were leaked from other sites, and attempt to login to Epic and other services using the same credentials. (Always use a unique password everywhere.)_"

He also mentioned bringing some older Epic games to the Store in the future at some point:

"_Making older Epic games available on the Epic Games store is completely logical and something we’re looking into in the background, but this isn’t coming shortly._"

He also said that he will be opening the Store to all small Indie Developers later this year but bear in mind he is against having shovelware and porn on their Store.

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/tim-...c-store-exclusives-older-epic-games-and-more/


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 10, 2019)

And re- his comment about porn, there are some very dubious indeed "games" on the steam store, which are just fapware if you ask me.


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 10, 2019)

You know what doesn't spy on you? Defenceless .torrent files.


----------



## Cvrk (Apr 10, 2019)

good find. You can also monitor this activity with GlassWire Firewall extension.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 10, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> You know what doesn't spy on you? Defenceless .torrent files.



You may wanna think twice about that.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 10, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> You know what doesn't spy on you? Defenceless .torrent files.



Except for the part where bittorrent literally is a "tracker" based technology for the basis of it's file sharing, sharing your ip and files...  



tigger said:


> And re- his comment about porn, there are some very dubious indeed "games" on the steam store, which are just fapware if you ask me.



Personally I have no issue with this.  Not my thing but some people, heck even some of our users (cough cough @xkm1948) love this sort of thing.  If your an adult why the ruckus?


----------



## biffzinker (Apr 10, 2019)

There's a link in the launcher under settings for a roadmap of changes coming to the Epic Games Store.
https://trello.com/b/GXLc34hk/epic-games-store-roadmap


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 10, 2019)

In other fun news, I learned the hard way today, to make an ARK mod I have to install the epic games store just to get their toolkit...  which uploads to the steam workshop.  

lolwut?


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 10, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> There's a link in the launcher under settings for a roadmap of changes coming to the Epic Games Store.
> https://trello.com/b/GXLc34hk/epic-games-store-roadmap
> View attachment 120738



The fact it is a trello board pisses me off.


----------



## 64K (Apr 10, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> The fact it is a trello board pisses me off.



Why? It's just a convenient medium for Epic to keep us up to date on features added and features planned within time frames.


----------



## biffzinker (Apr 10, 2019)

@rtwjunkie, Where you at man? No one wants to be friends.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 10, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> @rtwjunkie, Where you at man? No one wants to be friends.
> View attachment 120739


Lolwut?


----------



## biffzinker (Apr 10, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Lolwut?


Epic Game Launcher


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 10, 2019)

64K said:


> Why? It's just a convenient medium for Epic to keep us up to date on features added and features planned within time frames.



Just a personal thing, I hate trello.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 10, 2019)

I mean Discord spies on you too, and no one complains about that. I am still amazed at how much systems info Discord knows about my PC. It literally knows and reports every program automatically... I really miss Ventrilo client... it was not invasive at all and did only what it was meant to do...


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 10, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> Epic Game Launcher


I'll get on a little later this afternoon.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 10, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> In other fun news, I learned the hard way today, to make an ARK mod I have to install the epic games store just to get their toolkit...  which uploads to the steam workshop.
> 
> lolwut?


Unreal Engine 4 is distributed and updated via Epic Games Launcher.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 10, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Unreal Engine 4 is distributed and updated via Epic Games Launcher.



Of course.  That being said it was still kind of a interesting install sequence for what is ultimately a completely steam game.



lynx29 said:


> I mean Discord spies on you too, and no one complains about that. I am still amazed at how much systems info Discord knows about my PC. It literally knows and reports every program automatically... I really miss Ventrilo client... it was not invasive at all and did only what it was meant to do...



Mumble mumble (hint hint?)


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 10, 2019)

I can say, the only real feature, purely because of its convenience that I would like to see, is a wishlist other than my scrap of paper with a handwritten list.  GOG has a wishlist, although Epic is not alone in not having one. Origin and the otherwise very good store/launcher Uplay don’t have them either.


----------



## GoldenX (Apr 11, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> You may wanna think twice about that.





R-T-B said:


> Except for the part where bittorrent literally is a "tracker" based technology for the basis of it's file sharing, sharing your ip and files...


You can put tor on it, the P2P network only shares the needed files, instead of having access to the whole drive and running programs for data mining, you have full control over the shared information, instead of not knowing what is shared...
Stores (Steam included) are a bigger crime than torrents.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 11, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> You can put tor on it, the P2P network only shares the needed files, instead of having access to the whole drive and running programs for data mining, you have full control over the shared information, instead of not knowing what is shared...
> Stores (Steam included) are a bigger crime than torrents.



Yes.  My point was anything "sharing" could be argued to be spying.  It's a matter of transparency and definitions.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 11, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> You can put tor on it



Two words: Carnegie Mellon.  In many cases, applications are known to leak out identifying information even though you are tunneling through tor.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 11, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Two words: Carnegie Mellon.  In many cases, applications are known to leak out identifying information even though you are tunneling through tor.


That was three years ago. The current version of TOR closed all of those problems. At this time TOR is almost bullet-proof.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was three years ago. The current version of TOR closed all of those problems. At this time TOR is almost bullet-proof.



Maybe so.  But it still doesn't stop your stuff from leaking out details.


----------



## kapone32 (Apr 11, 2019)

Of all of these launchers Origin is the worst by far. I have About 8 Origin games and when I upgraded my computer they blocked me. Even though my credentials were the exact same. I tried to reach out to them and was treated like someone trying to steal an origin account. I haven't even looked at them. The only thing I l lament was that I was getting back into Crysis 3. I really only have the Epic store for free games anyway.


----------



## Eskimonster (Apr 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Spot on!




nailed it, this stinks.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 11, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Maybe so.  But it still doesn't stop your stuff from leaking out details.


That depends on how it is configured. The TOR browser running through the TOR network leaks no information outside the network. However, other programs on your system will still communicate with the net in their normal way and are not routed through the TOR network.

We're off topic. Let's rope it in.


----------



## c2DDragon (Apr 11, 2019)

I am amazed by everything I could read in this topic.
Privacy is a thing to protect at all cost but let's not be idiotic at some points.

I had my Facebook hacked years ago by some random guy selling superbowl shirts (I'm not even american). I don't know how this could be cause I have different passwords on different sites, I guess it could have been a Facebook data leak.
Then I realized Facebook is useless. The only use of it which worths it, is for an employer to spy the employees before firing them.

When you install Windows 10, you don't need to create an online account.
Now think. You still got STEAM/Origin/Uplay/GoG galaxy (yes yes). Discord (it's free, don't you understand why ?), mouse & keyboard softwares (read about what they do while you use them), mainboard softwares, intel softwares, amd softwares, ssd softwares, audio softwares, nvidia/intel/amd graphic drivers (launch autorun64.exe you can find it easily and look at nvidia telemetry and useless stuff).

Then the web browsers !!! My favorites, the Alibaba cavern.
If you reject the EULAs of those things, better not even trying to use a computer for gaming, you better go on consoles.

Well well, you keep only Steam because you don't trust the other platforms ? Know this, when you start your computer, plugged to the internet, you transfer data to your ISP and everything internet dependant start leaking data.

You can do the maximum to prevent data leaks, use another machine or sandboxes for your private stuff but know this, your antivirus and any sandbox software can grab those datas too.
You could use a dual boot with games on Windows 10 and anything private or relatively private on the other system OS.

Boycotting a launcher which is not even trying to do half what the other softwares you already use are doing is...well, you decide.

I'm quite sure somebody will respond by : "It's one less thing for my privacy". Whatever.


Edit : "a launcher who" to "a launcher which" yes I'm not english, mon mauvais !


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 2, 2019)

I think we all need to accept we have no privacy, and to not bother trying to stop these companies, though, those same companies can not stop me from keeping my phone off most of the time, or deciding to read more than having my PC on. They only have power over me if I let them, the context of that power is really up to the individual.


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 2, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I think we all need to accept we have no privacy, and to not bother trying to stop these companies, though, those same companies can not stop me from keeping my phone off most of the time, or deciding to read more than having my PC on. They only have power over me if I let them, the context of that power is really up to the individual.



So... which is it? 

Last I checked my privacy is still very much intact and I intend to keep it that way. Its not impossible or even hard to keep sensitive info away from the web. Unless a person struggles with self restraint, I guess. At the same time, whenever there is a chance I let my voice be heard against further intrusions. My bank wants to offer me personalized offers based on spendings, I opt out immediately. They had my data and they still do, but don't bother me with it, and I'm fine. It works that way as well with this supposed Epic spying - who cares if they have that data? It starts to matter when they use it against you. And yes, advertising to sell more is using it against you - after all you didn't intend to buy anything.

Giving up is never the answer and yes, its a constant battle... but its mostly a battle against your own internal struggle for 'wanting more' or 'fear of missing out'. You're not missing much at all, really.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 2, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> So... which is it?
> 
> Last I checked my privacy is still very much intact and I intend to keep it that way. Its not impossible or even hard to keep sensitive info away from the web. Unless a person struggles with self restraint, I guess. At the same time, whenever there is a chance I let my voice be heard against further intrusions. My bank wants to offer me personalized offers based on spendings, I opt out immediately. They had my data and they still do, but don't bother me with it, and I'm fine. It works that way as well with this supposed Epic spying - who cares if they have that data? It starts to matter when they use it against you. And yes, advertising to sell more is using it against you - after all you didn't intend to buy anything.
> 
> Giving up is never the answer and yes, its a constant battle... but its mostly a battle against your own internal struggle for 'wanting more' or 'fear of missing out'. You're not missing much at all, really.



Doesn't matter, all they need is that data that you just admitted they have to generate profit from you, not to mention your ISP selling the data of every website you visit based on patterns, etc. It's not giving up exactly, it's just, I will enjoy my other hobbies if they ever become too abusive.


----------



## Bones (Aug 2, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> *I think we all need to accept we have no privacy, and to not bother trying to stop these companies*, though, those same companies can not stop me from keeping my phone off most of the time, or deciding to read more than having my PC on. They only have power over me if I let them, the context of that power is really up to the individual.



NO.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2019)

Giving up is dumb. Fighting back is the only viable option, even if it's a slow, drawn-out, uphill battle where the opposition has near inexhaustible lobbying power. There's actually quite a lot we can do, even if individual action is ultimately futile and we need laws and regulations to keep these a******s in check, we can still annoy them and make their lives difficult.

Google's recent decision to break ad-blocking in Chrome finally got me off my butt, I installed Firefox on both my laptop, desktop and phone, and now enjoy a semi Google-free life (still use Gmail and Android), which makes me happy. Firefox is even nice enough to promote a bunch of useful privacy-enhancement extensions right off the bat, so I've now got Facebook Container (blocks "like" buttons and similar garbage across the web, thus blocking Facebook's ability to track my browsing habits), uBlock Origin, Decentraleyes (intercepts requests for third-party content on web pages and replaces it with locally stored options to keep sites from crashing while blocking tracking and ads) and Privacy Badger (detects hidden tracking cookies across pages, blocks and deletes them). My browser should now be pretty much as private as it can be without resorting to TOR. And both FB, Google and all the others will suddenly have a lot less data on me going forward. All of this took me about 30 minutes total. Worth it? Oh yeah. I smile every time I see a "like" button with the "this button has been disabled by Facebook Container" icon on top of it.


----------



## Super XP (Aug 2, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I think we all need to accept we have no privacy, and to not bother trying to stop these companies, though, those same companies can not stop me from keeping my phone off most of the time, or deciding to read more than having my PC on. They only have power over me if I let them, the context of that power is really up to the individual.


Are you sure about that? You can turn your device on or off, they still track you regardless. This has been proven, not to mention it's old news. 

So yes we should all care when companies violate privacy.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 2, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Are you sure about that? You can turn your device on or off, they still track you regardless. This has been proven, not to mention it's old news.
> 
> So yes we should all care when companies violate privacy.



they can still track me? even though my phone sits 30 feet away from me turned off 90% of the time? and I never take my phone when I leave the house cause I have Garmin GPS with lifetime updates.  so that's really interesting



Valantar said:


> Giving up is dumb. Fighting back is the only viable option, even if it's a slow, drawn-out, uphill battle where the opposition has near inexhaustible lobbying power. There's actually quite a lot we can do, even if individual action is ultimately futile and we need laws and regulations to keep these a******s in check, we can still annoy them and make their lives difficult.
> 
> Google's recent decision to break ad-blocking in Chrome finally got me off my butt, I installed Firefox on both my laptop, desktop and phone, and now enjoy a semi Google-free life (still use Gmail and Android), which makes me happy. Firefox is even nice enough to promote a bunch of useful privacy-enhancement extensions right off the bat, so I've now got Facebook Container (blocks "like" buttons and similar garbage across the web, thus blocking Facebook's ability to track my browsing habits), uBlock Origin, Decentraleyes (intercepts requests for third-party content on web pages and replaces it with locally stored options to keep sites from crashing while blocking tracking and ads) and Privacy Badger (detects hidden tracking cookies across pages, blocks and deletes them). My browser should now be pretty much as private as it can be without resorting to TOR. And both FB, Google and all the others will suddenly have a lot less data on me going forward. All of this took me about 30 minutes total. Worth it? Oh yeah. I smile every time I see a "like" button with the "this button has been disabled by Facebook Container" icon on top of it.



good luck, you will never win.  their are so many lines of hidden code that you can't block (shut upten for example helps some) but in reality it doesn't stop anything because Microsoft has loads of background server connections


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 2, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I think we all need to accept we have no privacy



I think we need to fight this notion until it dies.

Privacy is presently under siege on several fronts.  That does not make it outright impossible to manage though, or something to just give up on.  Rather it makes it more important than ever to care...



Super XP said:


> You can turn your device on or off, they still track you regardless. This has been proven



Oh really?  Love to see a citation on that one.



lynx29 said:


> good luck, you will never win.



Quitter.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 2, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I never take my phone when I leave the house



That is literally the prime reason to have a phone lol....when something happens and your aren't home.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 2, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Oh really?  Love to see a citation on that one.











						Your smartphone can be tracked even if GPS, location services are turned off
					

According to Princeton researchers, the smartphone user wouldn't even know their phone was being tracked.




					www.techrepublic.com


----------



## Bones (Aug 2, 2019)

Yes, you can be tracked even if the device is switched off but that's still no reason to just bend over.

I'll keep limiting/minimizing what they can get from me thank you very much.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 2, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> That is literally the prime reason to have a phone lol....when something happens and your aren't home.



nothing  ever happens. if grocery store list changes while im out oh well.   if a friend wants me to come over but cancels while im already driving, too bad so sad.  life isn't complicated at least not for me if you don't like it then dont be my friend /shrug its worked out great for me.


----------



## advanced3 (Aug 2, 2019)

Personal Privacy in 2019....lol.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I think we all need to accept we have no privacy


I think people who believe this need to research how to protect their privacy better.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Your smartphone can be tracked even if GPS, location services are turned off
> 
> 
> According to Princeton researchers, the smartphone user wouldn't even know their phone was being tracked.
> ...


The methods described in that research paper only work for people who have no idea how to control data flow on their devices. Said methods work on all Apple devices as users do not have admin rights to manage OS level services, which is also true on Android devices that are locked or unrooted. If you have an Android device, rooted and know how to manage services running you can prevent being tracked.


----------



## advanced3 (Aug 3, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Giving up is dumb. Fighting back is the only viable option, even if it's a slow, drawn-out, uphill battle where the opposition has near inexhaustible lobbying power. There's actually quite a lot we can do, even if individual action is ultimately futile and we need laws and regulations to keep these a******s in check, we can still annoy them and make their lives difficult.
> 
> Google's recent decision to break ad-blocking in Chrome finally got me off my butt, I installed Firefox on both my laptop, desktop and phone, and now enjoy a semi Google-free life (still use Gmail and Android), which makes me happy. Firefox is even nice enough to promote a bunch of useful privacy-enhancement extensions right off the bat, so I've now got Facebook Container (blocks "like" buttons and similar garbage across the web, thus blocking Facebook's ability to track my browsing habits), uBlock Origin, Decentraleyes (intercepts requests for third-party content on web pages and replaces it with locally stored options to keep sites from crashing while blocking tracking and ads) and Privacy Badger (detects hidden tracking cookies across pages, blocks and deletes them). My browser should now be pretty much as private as it can be without resorting to TOR. And both FB, Google and all the others will suddenly have a lot less data on me going forward. All of this took me about 30 minutes total. Worth it? Oh yeah. I smile every time I see a "like" button with the "this button has been disabled by Facebook Container" icon on top of it.



Why even bother using the internet then?


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 3, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Your smartphone can be tracked even if GPS, location services are turned off
> 
> 
> According to Princeton researchers, the smartphone user wouldn't even know their phone was being tracked.
> ...



That's quite different from being completely powered down, which was the claim IIRC.



advanced3 said:


> Why even bother using the internet then?



Because privacy and internet use do not have to be mutually exclusive?



advanced3 said:


> Personal Privacy in 2019....lol.



I have it.  Do you?  I know fully where my info is because I authorized it.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 3, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> That's quite different from being completely powered down, which was the claim IIRC.


Unless you're pulling the battery out, it's still possible:








						Can You Track Phone When it's Turned Off? Apparently, Yes!
					

Wanna track a phone which is switched off? Apparently, NSA has devised ways to track even those turned off smartphones. Read on for more details.




					techpp.com


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 3, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Unless you're pulling the battery out, it's still possible:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, if you have a trojan.  In other news, water is wet:



> The Washington Post story doesn’t throw light on this. But the only way NSA could track switched off phones must be by infecting the handsets with *Trojans*.



You'd most likely detect this too, in the form of advanced shutdown battery drain.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> nothing  ever happens. if grocery store list changes while im out oh well.   if a friend wants me to come over but cancels while im already driving, too bad so sad.  life isn't complicated at least not for me if you don't like it then dont be my friend /shrug its worked out great for me.



Hope your car doesn't break, boyfriend's car, doesn't break, mother needs help. The two examples you picked are the most trivial reasons ever.

Phones don't need to be a social thing.  Phones should be the device that is for when people need your help or you need people's help.  Social is just a bonus...or draw back.


----------



## Super XP (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> they can still track me? even though my phone sits 30 feet away from me turned off 90% of the time? and I never take my phone when I leave the house cause I have Garmin GPS with lifetime updates.  so that's really interesting
> 
> 
> 
> good luck, you will never win.  their are so many lines of hidden code that you can't block (shut upten for example helps some) but in reality it doesn't stop anything because Microsoft has loads of background server connections


Devices will auto turn on and try to determine your surroundings. There's also computer chips that are live tracking and or listening in on your conversations. 

Even NASA tracks mobile devices when they are on or off.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 3, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Devices will auto turn on and try to determine your surroundings. There's also computer chips that are live tracking and or listening in on your conversations.
> 
> Even NASA tracks mobile devices when they are on or off.



dawg, you missed the post where i said i leave my phone at home when i leave the house... i don't care about staying in touch 24.7.  i lived just fine before smart phones. lol



moproblems99 said:


> Hope your car doesn't break, boyfriend's car, doesn't break, mother needs help. The two examples you picked are the most trivial reasons ever.
> 
> Phones don't need to be a social thing.  Phones should be the device that is for when people need your help or you need people's help.  Social is just a bonus...or draw back.



if it does break down guess what? i will flag down another motorist to make a phone call for me or walk to nearest gas station.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 3, 2019)

advanced3 said:


> Why even bother using the internet then?


Me: you can protect your privacy reasonably well with zero sacrifices through 30 minutes' work (tops).

You: Why even bother using the internet then? 

Sound reasoning, that.


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> dawg, you missed the post where i said i leave my phone at home when i leave the house... i don't care about staying in touch 24.7.  i lived just fine before smart phones. lol
> if it does break down guess what? i will flag down another motorist to make a phone call for me or walk to nearest gas station.



This is fast becoming a boring rant from your end. And I struggle to see the point you want to make, youre not making any sense whatsoever to be honest...

What you are saying now is you will happily leech off others while avoiding things that you say you stopped caring about ?? Im reading a lot of 'me me me'. And at the same time you try to push that twisted idea as some sort of acceptable norm that is better at preserving your... what exactly? You are just making your own life difficult for no reason and being smug about it now...


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> This is fast becoming a boring rant from your end. And I struggle to see the point you want to make, youre not making any sense whatsoever to be honest...
> 
> What you are saying now is you will happily leech off others while avoiding things that you say you stopped caring about ?? Im reading a lot of 'me me me'. And at the same time you try to push that twisted idea as some sort of acceptable norm that is better at preserving your... what exactly? You are just making your own life difficult for no reason and being smug about it now...



asking to make a call from a stranger is leeching? lol wow... nah homie people used to do it all the time, you just to young to remember


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> asking to make a call from a stranger is leeching? lol wow... nah homie people used to do it all the time, you just to young to remember



Sure 'dawg'. What are you going to impersonate tomorrow?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> And I struggle to see the point you want to make, youre not making any sense whatsoever to be honest...


I think he's just running you up...


----------



## Valantar (Aug 3, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think he's just running you up...


Nah, the arguments from that side were contradictory from the get-go:


lynx29 said:


> I think we all need to accept we have no privacy, and to not bother trying to stop these companies [...] They only have power over me if I let them, the context of that power is really up to the individual.


That's a full 180° turn in the span of a couple of sentences. And I doubt it's meant as trolling - necroing a four-month-old thread for that seems odd.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> if it does break down guess what? i will flag down another motorist to make a phone call for me or walk to nearest gas station.



Assuming you don't live with your parents, if your mom or dad has fallen and busted their hip, then what? Leave then on the floor for a few days until they die or you happen to go check on them?

Assuming you have a job, what if they need to reach you?

You somewhat have obligations to people other than yourself.  Presuming you care about those relationships.

Again, the phone isn't just for you.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 3, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Nah, the arguments from that side were contradictory from the get-go:
> 
> That's a full 180° turn in the span of a couple of sentences. And I doubt it's meant as trolling - necroing a four-month-old thread for that seems odd.



I hadn't read the thread in awhile was just responding to people above me. Sorry for wanting to catch up on this topic a bit. I will never read older topics that interest me ever again, you are right, terrible idea. Always has to be shiny new things!!!



moproblems99 said:


> Assuming you don't live with your parents, if your mom or dad has fallen and busted their hip, then what? Leave then on the floor for a few days until they die or you happen to go check on them?
> 
> Assuming you have a job, what if they need to reach you?
> 
> ...



My parents have a landline with battery back up, and cell phones and we are never anywhere without being in the proximity of several other people, could easily go across the street, or if in a parking lot somewhere, would also be able to flag someone down, it's not hard at all actually unless you live rural in which case yes I would carry a cell for health reasons.

Do you have a battery backup on a landline in-case cell signal is down someday? You must not care about your siblings like me.  Just kidding, you obviously have it all figured out more than me and would never say something like that me. lulz


----------



## 64K (Aug 3, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> My parents have a landline with battery back up, and cell phones and we are never anywhere without being in the proximity of several other people, could easily go across the street, or if in a parking lot somewhere, would also be able to flag someone down, it's not hard at all actually unless you live rural in which case yes I would carry a cell for health reasons.



Land lines can be tapped too. You should probably forego further use of that for security reasons. And how do you know that the person you flag down isn't one of *them*.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 3, 2019)

64K said:


> Land lines can be tapped too. You should probably forego further use of that for security reasons. And how do you know that the person you flag down isn't one of *them*.



anything in your house can have a microphone if you really want to go full paranoid... also I own a smartphone... I don't carry it with me due to privacy reasons, 90% of time I don't carry just because I don't like having to deal with spam calls or people bugging me about nonsense, they can leave a voicemail and I will get back to them life is easier this way, the extra privacy is just a benefit.

also a landline being tapped is much different than everything about you being collected and sold for a profit to marketing companies that a smartphone gives them... so... completely different context


----------



## advanced3 (Aug 3, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Me: you can protect your privacy reasonably well with zero sacrifices through 30 minutes' work (tops).
> 
> You: Why even bother using the internet then?
> 
> Sound reasoning, that.



Well I only use my PC for gaming, any purchases are done thru pre paid cards so.... Enjoy snooping around my PC game library Epic. People cry about Privacy then in the same breath post half their life on social media. Given unlimited time ANYONE can find out ANYTHING about you, and the Government ALREADY knows..so.


----------



## Sithaer (Aug 3, 2019)

advanced3 said:


> Well I only use my PC for gaming, any purchases are done thru pre paid cards so.... Enjoy snooping around my PC game library Epic. People cry about Privacy then in the same breath post half their life on social media. Given unlimited time ANYONE can find out ANYTHING about you, and the Government ALREADY knows..so.



I know this is not a 'popular' opinion but I have to agree with this in general.

Personally I never cared much about this whole privacy matter as long as its just stuff that doesn't really concern me.
I mean I'm just 1 of the millions and millions of insignificant and average ppl who use the internet,etc.

Whats gonna happen really,I also only game on my PC/watch movies and series and whatever stuff on YT,basically the very generic stuff.
Have fun snooping around that.

I do have a smartphone but I barely use it for anything,I pay with cash in shops and only use my bank card when I buy hardware or something that I can't buy around here.

+I have EPIC and like all of the more 'known' launchers installed,they don't bother me at all. 'Pre ordered Borderlands 3 yesterday actually'


----------



## 64K (Aug 3, 2019)

Hell, I use my credit cards for purchases (including online purchases) and my cell phone for communication wherever I go and I have never had a problem. 

Tim Sweeney isn't hiding out in my bushes in his underwear spying through my window to gather information on my whereabouts and what I am up to because I bought a couple of games from EGS.

There is some paranoia going on here I think.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 3, 2019)

Hellfire said:


> n a recent post over on Reddit a user has found just what the EGS gets up to when installed on your laptop.


So “a user” on reddit, huh?  

I’m going to go with our own respected and longtime member here who already tested it and found it to be much ado about nothing.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 3, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Devices will auto turn on and try to determine your surroundings. There's also computer chips that are live tracking and or listening in on your conversations.
> 
> Even NASA tracks mobile devices when they are on or off.



Ok, I actually have hijacked the supposedly scary qualcomm subsystems that control that crap on a 2016 motorola as part of my security research.

In short, the only thing capable of autobooting the device is currently in proposal for antitheft purposes, and not actively implemented.  Right now?  If a device is off, it's off (exemption being of course malware where it's not REALLY off).  They can't even track it if it's stolen (car thieves know this which is why they turn phones off immediately).

You are really pulling things out of your ass here.



lynx29 said:


> dawg, you missed the post where i said i leave my phone at home when i leave the house...



Don't bother with that even.  This is a tinfoil hat level of paranoid.  I don't know about you but if I cared I'd just turn the dang phone off.



advanced3 said:


> Given unlimited time ANYONE can find out ANYTHING about you,



You, maybe, but you fully admitted you don't care.  Fine.  Step aside for those that do.



64K said:


> There is some paranoia going on here I think.



There most certainly is, on both sides, but that's hardly a reason to just give up on privacy.



rtwjunkie said:


> I’m going to go with our own respected and longtime member here who already tested it and found it to be much ado about nothing.



For me, it's about evidence.  There isn't any.

"Reputation" is cheap.  Whitepapers talk.


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 3, 2019)

Sithaer said:


> I know this is not a 'popular' opinion but I have to agree with this in general.
> 
> Personally I never cared much about this whole privacy matter as long as its just stuff that doesn't really concern me.
> I mean I'm just 1 of the millions and millions of insignificant and average ppl who use the internet,etc.
> ...



That was exactly my point and somehow the discussion is going way out of context. There are different degrees of privacy intrusion ánd data collection.

The key word being _sensitive data. _This is data that may compromise you in whatever way. That is the information that really impacts your life and thát is what should be kept offline - rigorously. The example of my bank looking to serve me personalized ads based on my purchase history is one step too far and getting pretty dangerously close to sensitive data. Another one: if you have a digital meter for your energy/gas in the house, readouts of that data are sensitive, because you can determine when people are away from the house with it, and therefore increases the risk of burglary.

This whole Epic matter in that sense is not at all an example of 'you can't have privacy on the internet'. Its the most light weight form of personal data you can imagine and impacts you in no way whatsoever. It also has nothing to do with carrying a smartphone or not and being trackable or not through it. Its a completely unreliable bit of data, you could have sold your smartphone, given it away, it could have been lost somewhere, etc. And with low reliability, a dataset is worthless for any sort of real privacy intrusion. Only with a massive amount of it (big data) ánd by combining it with other datasets does it become 'something' that can be used - for example, commercially. Or for large scale/strategic planning. When something is used at thát level, the individual is no longer a target.

In the end your own level of restraint determines what sensitive data is put online. The rest, which is data mining, is something you can control in part by using or not using services. This is also why the Facebook Cambridge Analytica thing is so big: the presence of social media has permeated even websites outside the service, meaning avoidance is problematic and you are unwillingly sharing data with a service you don't use or 'benefit' from. This is not fair play - and the company is now fast becoming a pariah - first in the EU, and now slowly but surely, people started to wake up in the US as well. Facebook now also combines the Whatsapp and Facebook data for example, even though no consent was given. A very unhealthy cocktail of social media and private conversation.

GDPR, for much of the above reasons, is a very, very good start in realigning what's what and what belongs to who in terms of data collection. Don't tell me privacy is impossible to maintain. The current situation is part of a steep learning curve of the information era. In our time, it matters more than ever to show companies and governments where you stand on this subject. Every individual that does not visit Facebook again is one vote against unlimited data collection, for example, and numbers simply don't lie. We can patiently wait for Zuckerberg's multi billion dollar bubble to burst, because it will (and you can trust that he knows it).


----------



## 64K (Aug 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> That was exactly my point and somehow the discussion is going way out of context. There are different degrees of privacy intrusion ánd data collection.
> 
> The key word being _sensitive data. _This is data that may compromise you in whatever way. That is the information that really impacts your life and thát is what should be kept offline - rigorously. The example of my bank looking to serve me personalized ads based on my purchase history is one step too far and getting pretty dangerously close to sensitive data. Another one: if you have a digital meter for your energy/gas in the house, readouts of that data are sensitive, because you can determine when people are away from the house with it, and therefore increases the risk of burglary.
> 
> ...



Could I have the Cliffs Notes on your wall of text please?

Self-importance issue?


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 3, 2019)

64K said:


> Could I have the Cliffs Notes on your wall of text please?
> 
> Self-importance issue?



You can keep rephrasing it but maybe you should just not do this?

Self importance...?! Not at all. If that is what you took from that... cliffs notes aren't enough for you. Check the topic title - and here we are @ page 8 talking about phones that track you when they're off. Context


----------



## 64K (Aug 3, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> You can keep rephrasing it but maybe you should just not do this?
> 
> Self importance...?! Not at all. If that is what you took from that... cliffs notes aren't enough for you. Check the topic title - and here we are @ page 8 talking about phones that track you when they're off. Context



Inquiring minds want to know. 

And the self-importance comment was aimed at you sir.


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 3, 2019)

64K said:


> Inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> And the self-importance comment was aimed at you sir.



Point taken


----------



## 64K (Aug 3, 2019)

I have a lot of respect for you Vayra86. You have a lot of knowledge and experience about tech and you are a big asset to this site.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 4, 2019)

64K said:


> I have a lot of respect for you Vayra86. You have a lot of knowledge and experience about tech and you are a big asset to this site.


I have to agree with this.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 4, 2019)

I'll be frank:  I didn't even really know what the subject was when I replied.  I just dislike the idea that security can't be managed.  It's a myth.

Sorry for going offtopic.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 4, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I'll be frank:  I didn't even really know what the subject was when I replied.  I just dislike the idea that security can't be managed.  It's a myth.
> 
> Sorry for going offtopic.



There is a lot of common sense in security and privacy which is why it is so hard for people to grasp and manage.

Common sense isn't as common as it used to be.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 4, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Common sense isn't as common as it used to be



I don't think it ever was.  Should be called "uncommon sense" lol


----------



## Valantar (Aug 4, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I hadn't read the thread in awhile was just responding to people above me. Sorry for wanting to catch up on this topic a bit. I will never read older topics that interest me ever again, you are right, terrible idea. Always has to be shiny new things!!!


_Nobody_ had read the thread in a while - it died four months ago. Discussions tend to peter put after a while. Attempting to resurrect them long after the fact while bringing nothing substantially new to the table is... rather odd, yes. Particularly when, as in this case, what is said is a self-contradictory mess that seems to try to punch every which way while hitting nobody. Not to mention that your attempted thread resurrection was broad enough to be off-topic. Why not start a new thread for a more broad discussion of privacy in the era of big data?


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 4, 2019)

Valantar said:


> _Nobody_ had read the thread in a while - it died four months ago. Discussions tend to peter put after a while. Attempting to resurrect them long after the fact while bringing nothing substantially new to the table is... rather odd, yes. Particularly when, as in this case, what is said is a self-contradictory mess that seems to try to punch every which way while hitting nobody. Not to mention that your attempted thread resurrection was broad enough to be off-topic. Why not start a new thread for a more broad discussion of privacy in the era of big data?



I was responding to the person above me, didn't even look at the date to be honest. I suppose you can request a moderator close the topic, but I had something to say and so I said it, sorry if it upset you, take care now.


----------



## looks (Aug 4, 2019)

no surprise at all, they have chinese tencent money, just like reddit.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 4, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I was responding to the person above me, didn't even look at the date to be honest. I suppose you can request a moderator close the topic, but I had something to say and so I said it, sorry if it upset you, take care now.


It didn't upset me, it just didn't make sense (due to being completely self-contradictory), something you seem to refuse to address - which is also why I keep bringing this up, as you seem to refuse to actually talk about this. Oh well. This discussion is long since dead, so I suppose we can leave it at that. Also, if you're responding to the person directly above you in a 7-page thread, I'd recommend quoting or @'ing them to make that clear. Useful stuff for making long discussions easier to parse.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 4, 2019)

looks said:


> no surprise at all, they have chinese tencent money, just like reddit.



Only 5 posts since 2013, that is impressive. lol wow, you actually might be the oldest account with that few amount of posts on the entire site... just a hardcore lurker? lol


----------



## dorsetknob (Aug 4, 2019)

Phones cannot be tracked if the Battery is Removed.
"O wait who started the built in craze of non removable battery's"
If You are "THAT PARANOID" buy and use a phone that has a removable/replaceable Battery
they are still available.


----------



## 64K (Aug 4, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Only 5 posts since 2013, that is impressive. lol wow, you actually might be the oldest account with that few amount of posts on the entire site... just a hardcore lurker? lol



Twice I have seen members here with accounts 10 years old or older make their first post.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 4, 2019)

looks said:


> no surprise at all, they have chinese tencent money, just like reddit.


Actually no. The information is available publicly if you look. Tencent money was used to expand the company and get Fortnite off the ground. All income since the investment has been by Epic. In fact money flows the other way, sharing the profits with Tencent, as per their agreement.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 4, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> Phones cannot be tracked if the Battery is Removed.
> "O wait who started the built in craze of non removable battery's"
> If You are "THAT PARANOID" buy and use a phone that has a removable/replaceable Battery
> they are still available.



You don't need to be.  A shutdown is a shutdown.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 4, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> You don't need to be.  A shutdown is a shutdown.


Also, if one is sufficiently paranoid, why not just stick the phone in a Faraday bag?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 4, 2019)

Just because a device appears to be shutdown doesn't mean it is.  That's why they say remove the battery.  If you can't remove the power source, the device could be transmitting.  It doesn't take much power for a device to intermittently ping which is sufficient to track it and most likely won't be noticed by the device owner.

This is all way off topic anyway.  Epic Games Store client doesn't do anything out of the ordinary anymore.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 4, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Just because a device appears to be shutdown doesn't mean it is.  That's why they say remove the battery.  If you can't remove the power source, the device could be transmitting.  It doesn't take much power for a device to intermittently ping which is sufficient to track it and most likely won't be noticed by the device owner.
> 
> This is all way off topic anyway.  Epic Games Store client doesn't do anything out of the ordinary anymore.


While what you're saying is true, the device would need to be infected with malware for that to happen - in which case the privacy ship has kind of sailed, no?


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 4, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I don't think it ever was.  Should be called "uncommon sense" lol



No, it used to be common.  For instance, we used to know that coffee was hot after it was brewed and we needed to give it some time to cool down.  Now, we have labels that say not to drink it until it cools down.  Sure, McD's coffee was similar to the temps inside a nuclear reactor, but it was probably obvious from touching the cup that you shouldn't drink it.

Sure, that isn't the best example but you can clearly see the commonality of common sense becoming uncommon over the decades.



Valantar said:


> Also, if one is sufficiently paranoid, why not just stick the phone in a Faraday bag?



Clearly because the Faraday brand doesn't have the designs or name that Louis does.  A bag for a phone must be fashionable first, functional second.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> No, it used to be common. For instance, we used to know that coffee was hot after it was brewed and we needed to give it some time to cool down. Now, we have labels that say not to drink it until it cools down. Sure, McD's coffee was similar to the temps inside a nuclear reactor, but it was probably obvious from touching the cup that you shouldn't drink it.



You know the reason is someone from the "used to know" generation likely got burned and sued, right?


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 5, 2019)

64K said:


> Twice I have seen members here with accounts 10 years old or older make their first post.



I would love to meet one of these people someday irl, that level of lurking is just so bizarre to me lol


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I would love to meet one of these people someday irl, that level of lurking is just so bizarre to me lol


It's more likely to be a shadow account for a regular user.


----------



## johnspack (Aug 5, 2019)

Jeez,  both epic and steam spy on you continuously...  win10 does the same.  Pick your poison,  but don't b-tch about it.  I don't complain about win10 because I switched to linux.  Solved.  I don't like epic,  it doesn't even run under linux,  solved.  Steam for linux...  well,  I have most of the older windows games they offer,  and can run them just fine under wine.  Solved.  Use what you need and accept the bs,  or walk away from it.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> You know the reason is someone from the "used to know" generation likely got burned and sued, right?



Sure, definitely.  That is why I said it wasn't the best example.  But anybody that has been wading through real life for a few decades has seen the change.  Slow at first and gradually speeding up.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 5, 2019)

johnspack said:


> Jeez,  both epic and steam spy on you continuously...  win10 does the same.  Pick your poison,  but don't b-tch about it.  I don't complain about win10 because I switched to linux.  Solved.  I don't like epic,  it doesn't even run under linux,  solved.  Steam for linux...  well,  I have most of the older windows games they offer,  and can run them just fine under wine.  Solved.  Use what you need and accept the bs,  or walk away from it.



Your IP provider is still logging every website you visit and for how long you visit it, among other stuff. Then selling that data for profit without giving you a penny. So no, you only think you have solved the problem.









						ISPs can now collect and sell your data: What to know about Internet privacy rules
					

Trump repealed the rules governing broadband data.



					www.usatoday.com
				






lexluthermiester said:


> It's more likely to be a shadow account for a regular user.



That does make sense, heh


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> ISPs can now collect and sell your data: What to know about Internet privacy rules
> 
> 
> Trump repealed the rules governing broadband data.
> ...


The "rule" was never in affect.  There was an injunction against implementation from when Wheeler was chairman in 2016 until the SCOTUS permitted it on Novemeber 5, 2018.  Pai ended it effective June 11, 2018.  There won't be any legal challenges against doing it again because SCOTUS cleared the way but politics shifted so it never was implemented.

In other words, 2015 -> 2016 -> 2017 -> 2018 -> 2019, ISPs could collect usage data.  In practice, they don't, because it costs money and without specific user details, the data is of little value.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 5, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The "rule" was never in affect.  There was an injunction against implementation from when Wheeler was chairman in 2016 until the SCOTUS permitted it on Novemeber 5, 2018.  Pai ended it effective June 11, 2018.  There won't be any legal challenges against doing it again because SCOTUS cleared the way but politics shifted so it never was implemented.
> 
> In other words, 2015 -> 2016 -> 2017 -> 2018 -> 2019, ISPs could collect usage data.  In practice, they don't, because it costs money and without specific user details, the data is of little value.



That wasn't my point at all, I was simply explaining to him that he has never actually dodged it all as he thinks he has by going to Linux. Unless he uses VPN 24.7 which is also not a good thing. I am well aware they have been doing this for ages, I just wanted an article to support my claim.

Obama was President when the NSA was literally monitoring everything everyone did before Snowden leaked it, Obama would have never shut it down unless they were caught red handed. This had been going on since Bush started it.  For me the issues are not political, but that was part of my point in my original post a few days ago, you really shouldn't bother anymore, even when you think can you dodge privacy you can't.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I am well aware they have been doing this for ages, I just wanted an article to support my claim.


I just said they didn't.  Routers are busy enough without data analysis on top of that.


NSA is the only organization in the USA that actively taps fiber communication lines (splits the signal so machinery can listen in without interfering).  What capability they have to analyze and relay that data, only they know.


----------



## 64K (Aug 5, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I just said they didn't.  Routers are busy enough without data analysis on top of that.
> 
> 
> NSA is the only organization in the USA that actively taps fiber communication lines (splits the signal so machinery can listen in without interfering).  What capability they have to analyze and relay that data, only they know.



I read somewhere that the NSA runs the voice transmissions from cells and landlines through voice recognition software and throws up a flag if certain words or phrases are used then those flagged calls are recorded and listened to by an agent to see if they mean anything. I don't know if that is legal or not. Maybe so under the Patriot Act.


----------



## Vya Domus (Aug 5, 2019)

64K said:


> I read somewhere that the NSA runs the voice transmissions from cells and landlines through voice recognition software and throws up a flag if certain words or phrases are used then those flagged calls are recorded and listened to by an agent to see if they mean anything.



The question is not if they are doing it, the question is on what scale. Your average Joe is concerned about his calls being intercepted and their internet footprint tracked but I can't help question whether or not that's even feasible. We live in a day where there is a surplus of data not a lack of it and no effective ways to process it all.

If you don't narrow down your search it's over, NSA or every other governmental structure from anywhere around the world has no hope to cope with acquisition and analysis of everyone's data.

Regardless, as I said a long time ago in a similar thread, the internet is a two-way communication at the very least and with that you can guess how much privacy you got.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 5, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Regardless, as I said a long time ago in a similar thread, the internet is a two-way communication at the very least and with that you can guess how much privacy you got.



Pretty much the best explanation you're going to get.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Your IP provider is still logging every website you visit and for how long you visit it, among other stuff.



Can and are are different statements.  Most still don't sell your browsing data, and for those who do, tls based dns largely makes the data useless, or just a VPN.

It's never out of your hands, unless you let it be.  If you have questions, just ask.  I'll be happy to advise for free.



moproblems99 said:


> Sure, definitely.  That is why I said it wasn't the best example.  But anybody that has been wading through real life for a few decades has seen the change.  Slow at first and gradually speeding up.



I might believe that but I feel old and crotecty going down the "dumb milenials!" path as every generation ever has pretty much felt the same of their offspring and somehow, life goes on.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I might believe that but I feel old and crotecty going down the "dumb milenials!" path as every generation ever has pretty much felt the same of their offspring and somehow, life goes on.



I'm not singling out the millennials.  Everybody is losing their common sense.  Millenials got the short end of the stick as everyone that was supposed to teach them was already going down hill.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I'm not singling out the millennials.  Everybody is losing their common sense.  Millenials got the short end of the stick as everyone that was supposed to teach them was already going down hill.



There is actually some scientific evidence to support the idea that human intellectualism has "peaked."

Have a depressing read:









						Has humanity reached ‘peak intelligence’?
					

Are our IQs set to increase forever, or are we on the cusp of decline? David Robson explores the past, present and future of intelligence.



					www.bbc.com


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## moproblems99 (Aug 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> There is actually some scientific evidence to support the idea that human intellectualism has "peaked."



LOL, you just need to look around you to see the evidence.  Circumstantial, yes, but there is plenty of it.


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## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> LOL, you just need to look around you to see the evidence.  Circumstantial, yes, but there is plenty of it.



I'm one of the last of a dying breed.  I need facts, not ancedotes.  Even my own.  I trust them not, sample size and all.

If you really insist on a contemporary ancedotal example, take this old electric table fan we have in our household.  No protective rim.  Metal blades.  Spins fast.  Yes it'll cut your fingers off if you stick them in it.  Was made in the 40s.  We have to hide it from modern children because they try to pick it up by the whirring blades almost immediately.

Kids back in the 40s didn't stick their fingers in fans.  If they did, the other kids heard the story of how Timmy-9-fingers was made, and dared not try it.

Science will set us free if we don't strangle it to death first.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Science will set us free if we don't strangle it to death first.



Science can't do it alone.  There is very much the human element that must work in tandem.


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## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Science can't do it alone.  There is very much the human element that must work in tandem.



Yes.  I should've phrased it more like this:

"Science will set us free, if we don't kill ourselves first."


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## Vya Domus (Aug 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> We have to hide it from modern children because they try to pick it up by the whirring blades almost immediately.
> 
> Kids back in the 40s didn't stick their fingers in fans.  If they did, the other kids heard the story of how Timmy-9-fingers was made, and dared not try it.



This intrigues me, surely at some point the "old fashioned" children must have acquired the knowledge to not stick their finger in the blades, there is no obvious reason to me why the "modern" children would be defective in this sense and be unable to accomplish this task given the same input.



R-T-B said:


> There is actually some scientific evidence to support the idea that human intellectualism has "peaked."
> 
> Have a depressing read:
> 
> ...



IQ is a funny thing, we use use some papers with shapes and sequences written on them to determine the performance of a structure of incomprehensible complexity which we have no idea how it works. Suffice to say, it may be somewhat arrogant of us to safely determine whether or not people are getting dumber. It's somewhat of a paradox to me that we estimate something which we can't even define.

I am young and have observed my peers which who I've grown up with and undeniably some of them would prove especially inept in solving these IQ tests. Yet I also have talked with them and can't help but notice that despite that they have a noticeably better understanding of the world, orders of magnitude in some regards, compared to their older peers who are equally inept according to the traditional metrics IQ employs.

Something, somewhere, is missing and it must be quite big I am guessing.


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## R-T-B (Aug 6, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> This intrigues me, surely at some point the "old fashioned" children must have acquired the knowledge to not stick their finger in the blades, there is no obvious reason to me why the "modern" children would be defective in this sense



Best reason I can come up with is parents stopped teaching it and the rumors of "Timmy-9-fingers" ended when protection barriers were added.

Even the initial barriers were hardly a foolproof layer though, so who knows:






						This item is unavailable | Etsy
					

Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewelry, and more… lots more.




					www.etsy.com


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## Vya Domus (Aug 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Best reason I can come up with is parents stopped teaching it and the rumors of "Timmy-9-fingers" ended when protection barriers were added.



Funnily enough my parents always told me how I never tried to stick something in an electrical outlet and whatnot but I for one can't discern whether or not I did that because I was told not to or I never had the interest in the first place.


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## advanced3 (Aug 6, 2019)

Where was the "common sense" in releasing a fan with no protective cover though?

Or the common sense that smoking would kill you? People smoked everywhere.. restaurants, movie theaters, hospitals, stores...everywhere. 

Maybe there was LESS common sense then.


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## R-T-B (Aug 6, 2019)

advanced3 said:


> Where was the "common sense" in releasing a fan with no protective cover though?



Better airflow.  Your case fans still lack them.



advanced3 said:


> Maybe there was LESS common sense then.



Don't confuse societal knowledge with commonsense.  If I was going by common sense alone I'd probably assume dihydrogen-monoxide would kill me because it instinctively sounds bad / noningestible.  Fortunately, society taught me that's just a fancy word for water, and I lived.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 6, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> This intrigues me, surely at some point the "old fashioned" children must have acquired the knowledge to not stick their finger in the blades, there is no obvious reason to me why the "modern" children would be defective in this sense and be unable to accomplish this task given the same input.



This falls into the learn from the mistakes of others category.  Regardless if the mistakes are real or fictional.  Common sense says, hey, Timmy nine fingers lost a finger because he stuck his hand in the fan.  Modern day is I believe therefore I am.  I believe I can stick my hand in that fan and get it back out before I lose my finger.  If I believe it, I can do anything.


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## advanced3 (Aug 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Better airflow.  Your case fans still lack them.



Better airflow....... 

They're also plastic and inside my case and wont remove a finger.

Nice use on some big words. People have ALWAYS lacked commonsense, there is just a lot more people now.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 6, 2019)

advanced3 said:


> Nice use on some big words. People have ALWAYS lacked commonsense, there is just a lot more people now.



Yes, there was always some people without common sense.  However, natural selection usually found away to, um, do its thing.  We have done a pretty good job limiting the reach of natural selection but that is besides the point.

There are more people now but I also believe there is a greater percentage of people lacking common sense.  Perhaps people are too busy?  Maybe.  I think it is because people have slowly adapted to having some form of technology do more and more for them which is slowly degrading those decision making skills and thought processes that help bolster common sense.

That also ties back in to what restarted this conversation.  People have gradually gotten used to and accepting of technology and are not stopping to use those thinking skills that they are losing.  Combine the trust in technology and the degrading critical thinking have led us to where we are.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> There is actually some scientific evidence to support the idea that human intellectualism has "peaked."
> 
> Have a depressing read:
> 
> ...


This is off topic, but there are many studies which directly contradict the conclusions of that article. Humanity is generally getting smarter with each generation. Additionally, the human brain has been found to have a great deal of capacity beyond what we already use. It's a fluff piece that has no merit or validity.


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## R-T-B (Aug 6, 2019)

advanced3 said:


> They're also plastic and inside my case and wont remove a finger.



Famous last words.  Words my 5000RPM blowers from my server closet would contest. 



lexluthermiester said:


> This is off topic, but there are many studies which directly contradict the conclusions of that article. Humanity is generally getting smarter with each generation.



There is also many issues with IQ tests.  It's not the end-all article on the subject but it certainly is supportive of what he says.  I'm not sure I buy this whole idea either, I like to believe in the future being better and brighter, but wanting something isn't a reason for bias.  I remain neutral at this point.

And yes we are way off-topic, but at least in a civil and educational way...


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## Vayra86 (Aug 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> This falls into the learn from the mistakes of others category.  Regardless if the mistakes are real or fictional.  Common sense says, hey, Timmy nine fingers lost a finger because he stuck his hand in the fan.  Modern day is I believe therefore I am.  I believe I can stick my hand in that fan and get it back out before I lose my finger.  If I believe it, I can do anything.



Holy crap this is so true.

And then when the finger does fall off, we get 'You should have told me it was dangerous, I'll sue you, and you suck'

End result, a total ban on desk fans. Its coming, I feel it.


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## Valantar (Aug 6, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Holy crap this is so true.
> 
> And then when the finger does fall off, we get 'You should have told me it was dangerous, I'll sue you, and you suck'
> 
> End result, a total ban on desk fans. Its coming, I feel it.


The thing is, that reaction is an American thing, not a modern thing. Living in a litigious culture where civil suits for damages are portrayed as the norm when accidents happen will make people think like that. Sure, people here in Norway also sue for damages from time to time, but not anywhere near the same amount per capita, nor as idiotic reasons. This is a deficit of American culture and the American legal system, not of "kids these days".


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## Vayra86 (Aug 6, 2019)

Valantar said:


> The thing is, that reaction is an American thing, not a modern thing. Living in a litigious culture where civil suits for damages are portrayed as the norm when accidents happen will make people think like that. Sure, people here in Norway also sue for damages from time to time, but not anywhere near the same amount per capita, nor as idiotic reasons. This is a deficit of American culture and the American legal system, not of "kids these days".



You say that, and yet, the behaviour starts to take root in the EU and my country as well.

Its not just about sueing for damages, there is an underlying principle behind that; the idea of a 'viable society'. The drive to ban any and all risk from it, which is a utopian idea and a fallacy. You see it in many other things as well - the way we talk about food these days. The idea of wearing all sorts of protection for even the most basic of tasks (ten years ago, you wouldn't see a soul with a helmet on bikes or in ski resorts, now, its fast becoming commonplace - even with a complete lack of numbers/research/indicators of increased head injuries; we only 'perceive' there is a higher risk when there really isn't. Same thing happens with crime rates. They go down all the time, yet we feel less safe).

So, we put protective barriers, and when even those 'fail', _someone _is to blame. After all, we are supposed to be protected in our viable society, right? We _expect_ that. And its not a giant leap either to connect that to the entitlement generation.

I believe its a modern thing.


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## advanced3 (Aug 6, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> The idea of wearing all sorts of protection for even the most basic of tasks (ten years ago, you wouldn't see a soul with a helmet on bikes or in ski resorts, now, its fast becoming commonplace - even with a complete lack of numbers/research/indicators of increased head injuries; we only 'perceive' there is a higher risk when there really isn't.



Really?

10 years ago there weren't as many distracted drivers on the road with their cell phone buried in their face. Drivers cant even help themselves from pulling out their phone at every red light they stop at. So I would say protecting your brain from smacking the pavement when a distracted driver clips you IS common sense.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 7, 2019)

advanced3 said:


> Really?
> 
> 10 years ago there weren't as many distracted drivers on the road with their cell phone buried in their face. Drivers cant even help themselves from pulling out their phone at every red light they stop at. So I would say protecting your brain from smacking the pavement when a distracted driver clips you IS common sense.



Case in point, perception versus facts. In my country the vast majority of cycling happens on separate roads. Would I wear a helmet in London City though; yes absolutely


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## vega22 (Aug 7, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> This is all way off topic anyway.  Epic Games Store client doesn't do anything out of the ordinary anymore.



The best part is the stuff that is out of the ordinary was for the engine editor, to check for other software causing conflicts. Normal things for software of that type. Just not a games store. But when the software started as an engine editor...


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## Valantar (Aug 7, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> You say that, and yet, the behaviour starts to take root in the EU and my country as well.
> 
> Its not just about sueing for damages, there is an underlying principle behind that; the idea of a 'viable society'. The drive to ban any and all risk from it, which is a utopian idea and a fallacy. You see it in many other things as well - the way we talk about food these days. The idea of wearing all sorts of protection for even the most basic of tasks (ten years ago, you wouldn't see a soul with a helmet on bikes or in ski resorts, now, its fast becoming commonplace - even with a complete lack of numbers/research/indicators of increased head injuries; we only 'perceive' there is a higher risk when there really isn't. Same thing happens with crime rates. They go down all the time, yet we feel less safe).
> 
> ...


I think you're onto something, but there are a number of issues with what you're saying here. Let's start with the easy one: I don't think there's any perception of higher risk in today's society (at least in regard to the activities you mention), but rather a lowered _acceptance _of risk and_ less social stigma attached to risk mitigation_ (wearing helmets etc.) for everyday activities - with the latter being the big one here. As for "ten years ago, you wouldn't see a soul with a helmet on bikes or in ski resorts", that definitely isn't true everywhere. Bike helmets have become _more_ common here in Norway (to the degree that you rarely see people without them except on rental bikes/city bikes etc.), but they were definitely not uncommon ten years ago, and not even 20 or 30 years ago. Cultural differences likely explains that, but more to the point I don't see that as an expression of an increased perception of risk, but rather an expression of increased acceptance of risk mitigation and less social stigma attached to it (nobody will think you're a wuss for wearing a bike helmet today, which they might have a few decades back). Not to mention that most societies have moved towards valuing human life far more over the past century, and not just in terms of human rights etc., but also in terms of increasingly not accepting death or significant bodily harm as unavoidable facts of life.

Secondly, _increased_ head injuries isn't the point. There's plenty of research indicating that (especially repeated) head injuries have bigger detrimental effects than previously believed (even a single "simple" concussion has measurable long-term effects). In other words, there's more research to support being cautious and protecting yourself in the first place, without any _increase_ in injuries being necessary to legitimize an increased focus on safety. The same goes for protective wear when working with power tools, for example - hobbyists are far more prone to wearing eye and ear protection when using power tools than a couple of decades ago. Again, this can't solely be attributed to increased fear of injury, but also to increased access to protective gear, increased knowledge of the dangers of not using them, and a lessening of social stigmas connected to their use. The latter seems especially important to me - though this is entirely anecdotal, and I haven't seen studies to back it up - as the biggest change I've seen is in "less mainstream" cultures (such as snowboarding and skateboarding) where posturing and being "tough" used to have more value, but where people have come to see that protecting yourself from serious injury is _smart_ (as in "common sense") which was definitely not the norm a couple of decades back.

I entirely agree that a risk-free society is utopian, but working to lessen unnecessary harm is nonetheless a worthwhile goal, and is not really connected to ideas of lessened personal responsibility or litigious thinking. While an argument could be made that stricter workplace safety laws remove personal responsibility and move it to employers (in the case of protective gear, for example), it's quite a stretch to think that changes such as this lead to people suing McDonalds for selling too hot coffee and not warning them about it. Also, the legal system per country has a very large deterministic effect on the amount and size of civil suits for damages. Norway has a low amount of both (number of suits and sums paid out) due to having systems in place to reimburse people who have suffered workplace injuries, violence, or other things without needing to go through the court system.

There is a point that putting some sort of 'barrier' in place to prevent injury or death will then place responsibility of any malfunction of that barrier onto its maker - but only if the barrier actually failed, at least in a sensible society. You shouldn't, for example, be able to sue a guardrail maker for their guardrail not stopping a car from crashing through and into a ravine _unless it's proven that the guardrail was faulty (say by being installed improperly or having a significant manufacturing defect)_. If the driver drove headfirst into it at far above the speed limit, that's outside of any reasonable expectation of the barrier's function. The issue is that courts - particularly in the US - have been allowing frivolous civil damages suits to go through the courts for decades, rather than dismissing them with prejudice, which again creates a precedent that the injured party is _never_ at fault, and that someone else can never be blamed.

And lastly, the perception of increased crime rates are nearly 100% due to the increase in profit-driven populist news media over the past decades, as well as news industry consolidation and reductions in government support programmes - all of which have led to lower quality journalism and increased sensationalism.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 7, 2019)

Valantar said:


> Let's start with the easy one: I don't think there's any perception of higher risk in today's society (at least in regard to the activities you mention), but rather a lowered _acceptance _of risk and_ less social stigma attached to risk mitigation_ (wearing helmets etc.) for everyday activities



That is an eye opener right there, you are probably right about that. Lowered acceptance of risk, yes, and I'm sure this is part of the trend of feminism in society, zeitgeist if you will. Its no longer that cool to do risky stuff. But it is also the same thing, in a way. Lower acceptance is also the consideration that a certain activity is actually risky and another is not - and quite often, the rationale is missing.

Risk mitigation has a major drawback, and that is that you're slowly but surely becoming risk-averse, which makes it practically impossible to live in peace with what you do every day. It also contains a shift in responsibility. The increased amount of knowledge is such a shift - because the doctor said its potentially very risky, we can just stop thinking for ourselves and make our own, rational or irrational, objective observation of risk. Because even if you try to, the doctor already said it was risky  It causes those around you to call you reckless, and that is considered a negative characteristic.

And overall I agree with what you're saying. Risk mitigation is a good thing. But it comes with a very nasty stranglehold. Think about insurance and the use of helmets while cycling. Before you know it (the trend was already going and thwarted over here in NL, the stance is now 'people can make their own decision about it, but we will promote its use', you've lost coverage for damages while not wearing a helmet on a bike. And this happens with many, many things. The list of things to keep in mind to avoid risk, gets longer. Not just for us, but for companies too. And risk mitigation also adds cost. Therefore I do believe freedom and personal responsibility and a constant push towards risk mitigation are definitely at odds with one another.


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## dorsetknob (Aug 7, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Lowered acceptance of risk, yes, and I'm sure this is part of the trend of feminism  in society,



More like easier access to recourse to law  (yeh i will Sue you on a no win /no fee case)


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> There is also many issues with IQ tests. It's not the end-all article on the subject but it certainly is supportive of what he says. I'm not sure I buy this whole idea either, I like to believe in the future being better and brighter, but wanting something isn't a reason for bias. I remain neutral at this point.


Think about it this way, one only has to look at history to see that we are getting smart, both individually and as a species. Look at all of the advances we have made in just the last 100 years VS the previous 1000. People from 1000 years ago would have no ability to understand, even if taught, many of the scientific principles we use commonly today. Our technology alone would be completely foreign and alien to them.


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## dorsetknob (Aug 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Look at all of the advances we have made in just the last 100 years VS the previous 1000. People from 1000 years ago would have no ability to understand, even if taught, many of the scientific principles we use commonly today. Our technology alone would be completely foreign and alien to them.


Disagree with that and i have a valid example to Postulate

After WW2 Allied Troops had Missions to unmapped and unexplored by 1st world Nations To the interior of Papua-new Guinea.
they went in by newly developed Helicopters used 2 way radio and other modern things.

To the people they met ( a stone age civilization who had never seen a white man ) they were mistaken for strange Gods with powers of gods.
after contact /exposure and education to western Knowledge ( only about 50 years) they are on average on par with us


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 7, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> Disagree with that and i have a valid example to Postulate
> 
> After WW2 Allied Troops had Missions to unmapped and unexplored by 1st world Nations To the interior of Papua-new Guinea.
> they went in by newly developed Helicopters used 2 way radio and other modern things.
> ...


Interesting point. It still supports the idea that we can and are becoming more intelligent as time does on.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Look at all of the advances we have made in just the last 100 years VS the previous 1000.



Many of our advancements are the result of number crunching that machines have to do because it would take humans multiple lifetimes to get it done.  In other words, many advancements in technology are the result of AI/computers doing the work.  We didn't necessarily do it all.

Yes, humans invented the computer, so ultimately we get credit but without computers, we can't do much of what we are doing now.

Edit:

To elaborate, there are certain events that ignite technology and allow a flurry of activity for a bit. Think fire, wheel, steam, electricity, transistor.  Without the ones before it, these could never be achieved.  You also have all the knowledge from your ancestors.

As time goes on, advancement tapers a little bit.  Much like as we are with silicon - of course that is just a microcosm.

Again, all of this doesn't necessarily mean the average person is getting smarter.  Book smarter?  Street smarter?


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## 64K (Aug 7, 2019)

I will just throw this on the wall and see what sticks. We have become more intelligent and knowledgeable as a species but we have forfeited some degree of common sense in the process. That's just my observations of people over the years for whatever it's worth.


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## Valantar (Aug 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Many of our advancements are the result of number crunching that machines have to do because it would take humans multiple lifetimes to get it done.  In other words, many advancements in technology are the result of AI/computers doing the work.  We didn't necessarily do it all.
> 
> Yes, humans invented the computer, so ultimately we get credit but without computers, we can't do much of what we are doing now.
> 
> ...


It's entirely possible for society as a whole to have become "smarter" without this necessarily making each individual person smarter. Humanity's collective ability to store, organize and disseminate knowledge has expanded dramatically over the last few decades, let alone the past century. You're right about one thing - some events are easily seen as nexuses of technological development and often trigger waves of subsidiary inventions, but in reality these are rarely isolated events - they are rather better described as confluences of conditions leading to certain technological advancements once they are in place. The invention of photographic technologies or the lightbulb are good examples of this: while these inventions are typically claimed to be the work of singular genius, the fact of the matter is usually that similar or even identical inventions were made by a number of different people in different places with no knowledge of each other, simply due to the necessary preconditions of such an invention being possible were "suddenly" there. The "genius inventor" is often whoever had the most/best resources in place to cement their reputation as such (case in point: Edison and his money, legal team and connections). The key factor behind these developments isn't only invention and availability of technology, but a much broader network of developments in education, business, law, natural sciences, media, and a host of other factors.

Number crunching machines are tools that allow us to do complex jobs, but they aren't the source of advancements themselves - someone first has to have the idea and access to the knowledge of how to make that idea into a reality, including but not limited to access to such machines. Your perspective has a strong tinge of technological determinism, which is a logical fallacy - it doesn't matter how good your tools are if you don't know how to use them or have good ideas for uses for them, which is dependent on dissemination of knowledge and a culture where such activity is encouraged. As such, your statement that "yes, humans invented [x], so ultimately we get credit but without [x], we can't do much of what we are doing now." can apply just as precisely to ... say, hammers or writing or spoken language. And sure, you could expand the definition of "technology" to encompass all of those if you want to maintain your deterministic stance, but at that point your definition is so broad as to be entirely meaningless.



64K said:


> I will just throw this on the wall and see what sticks. We have become more intelligent and knowledgeable as a species but we have forfeited some degree of common sense in the process. That's just my observations of people over the years for whatever it's worth.


I think you have a point, but I don't think this is (entirely) down to our reliance on technology. While this is of course a factor (specifically in the decline in specific skills that our currently popular technologies replace) I'd put this more down to liberal capitalism - a system in which irrational thinking is very strongly encouraged ("Buy [x] and become happy!") and rational, critical and thorough thinking and analysis is strongly discouraged both directly ("don't worry too much - just buy [x] and be happy!") and indirectly (by making society sufficiently complex that maintaining a critical overview of your current relations is both impossible and exhausting, while simultaneously stripping governments of their power to protect the people from this complexity through ever-increasing deregulation).


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2019)

64K said:


> I will just throw this on the wall and see what sticks. We have become more intelligent and knowledgeable as a species but we have forfeited some degree of common sense in the process. That's just my observations of people over the years for whatever it's worth.



Intelligence causes arrogance, which reduces the idea of being humble - towards the world, events, realities, which is part of common sense.

An example of this is 'We'll tackle climate change with technology, no problem' - even when you don't have the actual technology. Another one is 'we can build perfectly secure CPUs' and then somebody said Meltdown.

Sometimes this arrogance also serves us well. The mission to the moon might be a good example of that. Even if the motivator was a political struggle; that mission defied all common sense at the time and still was a major leap forward.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 8, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Intelligence causes arrogance, which reduces the idea of being humble - towards the world, events, realities, which is part of common sense.


Unless you also teach responsibility. Responsibility and humility go hand in hand.


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## Shambles1980 (Aug 31, 2019)

If you or i were taken to a time before all of this modern electronics the people of that time would think we were useless idiots, You cant learn a new skill any faster than people in the past could, and what you deem to be "intelligence" Is quite laughable compared to some of the Genuinely intelligent things that man kind have done in the past.
Intelligence is not knowledge.

Intelligence is looking at a drop of water and seeing it refract light, then Deciding that it can magnify light, so if it magnifies light it can magnify your perception of an image. and without any teachings about it deciding that you could make a glass sphere and subsequently decide that having 2 spheres of different sizes would magnify and project the image in the correct orientation. And more importantly understand WHY and then you have invented a telescope...

Knowledge on the other hand is learning that by reading it or being told it.

We are A knowledgeable species, We amass and consume knowledge.
I Know how to smelt iron. I Know how to forge tools. I know how to make a fire using only the things i can find. That is knowledge i have amassed, But Knowing and doing are 2 different things. So yes i have the knowledge on how to forge a small hand axe. But can i do it?? probably not.. Not without practice at the very least.
And if i had never been told about these things and how they work. would I have been the one that Figured it out??
I really doubt it.

Humans are no more intelligent now than they were in the copper age. They are more knowledgeable But for the most part each individual human is less useful / self sufficient.
If you dropped us back in the copper age there is now way any one of us would be able to advance tech to a point where we could be valuable members of society We would just be a burden. If we however brought some one from the copper age here we would be able to give them some sort of roll in society. hell they could end up in ahiger paid job than us because they are a highly skilled crafts person.

As a species we are even at the point now where we feed our knowledge in to a computer and the computer comes up with a better chemical to do what we wanted to do than we could. And We don't even understand why its better, if anything That makes us Less intelligent than the people who would have studied the facts for years and then came to the conclusion And Importantly would have known Why we came to that conclusion,.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Aug 31, 2019)

wow so far off topic


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## Pluffy (Sep 5, 2019)

Every company is spying on you, some are just better at hiding it.


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