# ATI (AMD) and NVIDIA Fix Prices in the US, Class Action Slapped Against them



## btarunr (Jul 16, 2008)

Class actions charged against NVIDIA and ATI (now AMD) reveal that the two companies may have staged a competition over the past half-a-decade or so. A judge read out an email which suggested price fixing was rife in the graphics card market. That follows a class action of 51 different plaintiffs, now combined into one, and across different legal jurisdictions, alleging cartel behaviour not only in graphics chips, but flat panels and CRTs too.

In other words, NVIDIA and ATI may have been fixing prices of their products for a while now, it is believed that they held secret meetings to discuss staged competition, chart out prices, timings of product launches among other things. These pseudo-competitions staged provided improved sales among other things. A PDF File available to us at this point shows that the two indulged in conspiracy to mutually benefit from staged competition, so as to:



 Fix, stabilize, and maintain prices of products in the US Market.
 Artificial inflation of product prices. 

Provided, are charts that show price-spread between NVIDIA and ATI products. Three major time-scales: Before the 'conspiracy period', during and after a federal grand jury launched an investigation and issued subpoenas to both companies: 



 



Of course, the latest price-cut of NVIDIA GeForce GTX 200 series products doesn't seem to have been taken into account, the price spread between NVIDIA and ATI with their highest-offerings is zero.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## panchoman (Jul 16, 2008)

wow it makes sense.. this why nvidia and ati always seem to pop out new products out of the blue to go head on with the other.. and would explain by nvidia and amd are "buddying" when it comes to the cuda and physx, and why they haven't had any suits against each other, dispite all of the bad stuff each of them have done to each other.


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

We all know what was going on in 2003. Just how many $500 cards we released in that year. I lost count after 5 by each company. That seemed to go on forever, until the 8 series NV cards broke it open & AMD when back to the drawing board. At some point they can't call it competition anymore. Its definitely competition now but what was going on back then was pretty damn apparent. This is what happens when one co tries to break the manotony.


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## tkpenalty (Jul 16, 2008)

Nvidia to AMD; AMD to Nvidia "We hate each other"


-both hug each other warmly-


I had a hitch something like this was going on.



Nvidia... is so screwed. Now watch GTX280 prices skyrocket.


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## wiak (Jul 16, 2008)

if they didnt co-operate they whould have been in "MAD aka Mutual assured destruction" about  now


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## ghost101 (Jul 16, 2008)

I bet AMD are pissed because now theyll look like hypocrites.


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## chron (Jul 16, 2008)

i knew there was something fishy about a 650 dollar video card!


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## ShadowFold (Jul 16, 2008)

Wait so they have been working together  am I reading that right?


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## btarunr (Jul 16, 2008)

ShadowFold said:


> Wait so they have been working together  am I reading that right?



to get the most out of your wallet, yeah.


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## chron (Jul 16, 2008)

ShadowFold said:


> Wait so they have been working together  am I reading that right?



Think about it:  Two big companies with no main competitors other than each other get together and figure out a way to bring in the most cash.  Obviously the most blunt way would be raising the price of their products.  Usually when the price of a product goes up it's because of a few reasons: Manufacturing cost, and availability. Here, they were simply raising the price for no reason other than maximum return.

If this is all true, we've all basically been getting reemed with no lube for a very long time.


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

I thought it was obvious. They just started to throw rocks at each other again when NV broke the mold with the 8 series. AMD couldn't keep up anymore so all bets were off. Between 2002 & 2007, the price difference between those 2 idiots' high-end model was nil. 

There was none of this *I come out with a $800 card that reigns for a year which gets eaten by a $450 card just to be trumped by a $600 card which is upgraded to a $650 card which is utterly destroyed by a $500 card.*

Life sucks AMD & NV doesn't it. _They_ would have probably never found out if the 2 idiots didn't start to fight like cats & dogs.


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## Baum (Jul 16, 2008)

let's wait what turn's out to be true.

and isn't it normal that they try to cooperate to keep prices high? every industry trys to, even if it is illegal

only thing i'm worried about is that they form more a monopole on GPU's like intel and AMD.
2 is not enought for a sector, but i won't buy any other as there's no better one?

remember the day's where you could choose between cyrix intel amd ect. ? like Ati Nvidia 3dfx.
3 and up are good, less is just bad


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## zOaib (Jul 16, 2008)

MAN !!! i feel used .......


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## ShadowFold (Jul 16, 2008)

I think we need another GPU manu. so we can have more competition, cheaper prices and more fanboy flamewars(cause I think there funny )


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Jul 16, 2008)

S3? ftw?


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## MilkyWay (Jul 16, 2008)

yeah they go back and fourth in the war you have the top card next time i can have the top card

a mid range card comes out then another better mid range card comes out by the other

its silly i bet the whole 3000 series and 9000 series is a sham and they couldve done that to start with

i mean didnt you notice how close it was back when you had the x1000 series and the 7000 series

the whole 6 series and x800 cards were a sham too not much in it

i bet the it all started with the 9800 radeon i mean that was a pricey beast


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

I hope Larrabee breaks this stuff up. Its OK now, since both companies are feeling the effects of their own BS but it could go back to it at anytime. They are already bitching about the CUDA stuff - That means they are actually talking to each other  Its headed that way again, where we see another set of 5 $500 cards _<-- arbitrary number_, that are not worth it. 

If this doesn't go down, the G300 & R800 could very well be the same price at launch. That's when we know they are doing it again, especially when NV is keeping a track on AMD's prices. It probably happened that way at first, but continuing it for 5 yrs is unforgivable. The FXs were not worth it at all & the prices for the 2900s made me sick.


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## phanbuey (Jul 16, 2008)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> S3? ftw?





lol... just in time for intel and its larrabee.

I thought the 2900's were a bit cheap to be honest, maybe not for the performance tho.  It all makes sense now.  Watch these two gang up on intel.


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## laszlo (Jul 16, 2008)

nothing new the same is in oil branch and who's sue the few big supplier?nobody even they recognize that the price is not normal they're selling double why not if are buyers and this can be extended to almost any product

if anyone made a product before sell 1st he made a market/price research to adjust his price and if the market can hold a 100% win (based on a similar but not identical product) i bet he wouldn't sell it with a 30% margin;people don't know the manufacturing cost for this reason


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## FreedomEclipse (Jul 16, 2008)

ShadowFold said:


> I think we need another GPU manu. so we can have more competition, cheaper prices and more fanboy flamewars(cause I think there funny )



someone call up matrox & tell them how much the enthusiast market is missing them. Matrox have long since confined themselves to a box we call 'industry' - they need to take up arms & come out with a pincer move against ATi/Nv to show the world their absence has not been for nothing....

either that or one of the 3rd party companies like HiS & XFX, GeCube etc etc need to step out & start makin their own graphics cards.....


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## turtile (Jul 16, 2008)

In theory, wouldn't this mean that Intel and AMD also conspired with their Extreme and FX editions?


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## spectre440 (Jul 16, 2008)

zOaib said:


> MAN !!! i feel used .......



me too...
this sucks...


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

phanbuey said:


> lol... just in time for intel and its larrabee.
> 
> I thought the 2900's were a bit cheap to be honest, maybe not for the performance tho.  It all makes sense now.  Watch these two gang up on intel.



They were cheap, when they were compared to the 8 series. Who knew they had that GTX up their sleeves when the 7900s ended up bombing with a dual disaster. This is when the pricing BS ended. But NV ended up going into another universe of prices with the 8 series. The performance over anything else may have warranted it but I know I didn't like it one bit. It only took 2 generations for AMD to catch up, but now since they did it could easily go back.

Both companies need to price there cards according to what they will do (& how much we will pay for them). Having them _locked-in_ w/o that real value only leaves the customer hanging out to dry. These relatively high NV prices over the last 3 yrs may have put us out of perspective of what these things should cost.


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## wolf2009 (Jul 16, 2008)

i dont care if they staged the prices or not, as long as they brought products like 8800 gt for $200 or a little more and HD4850 for $150 .


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## Champ (Jul 16, 2008)

So, all the competition is staged?  Sounds more like the WWE to me.  They have have been doing it for so long. no need to stop them now.


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## ShadowFold (Jul 16, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> i dont care if they staged the prices or not, as long as they brought products like 8800 gt for $200 or a little more and HD4850 for $150 .



I agree. The prices are great right now and they have been for the past year. Last year it would have cost me 4x as much to max the newest games.


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## Bundy (Jul 16, 2008)

As much as we dont like it, business is about making money, nothing else. Unfortunately, the best way to make money is to be anticompetitive. This type of thing goes on all the time in practically every industry. Disappointing, yes. Surprising, No. And yes, prolly over half of what any of you bought came from rigged markets.


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## NamesDontMatter (Jul 16, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> i dont care if they staged the prices or not, as long as they brought products like 8800 gt for $200 or a little more and HD4850 for $150 .



Shakes head, young gunz these days . . .

Oh I don't care if they particpate in illegal conspiracy activities, thats no big deal as long as I get a good price its all good. At least read 2-3 pages of the PDF man, that sickens me.


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## btarunr (Jul 16, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> i dont care if they staged the prices or not, as long as they brought products like 8800 gt for $200 or a little more and HD4850 for $150 .



It's like this: Early 2008 "ZOMG!!!! Me Wants 8800 GT.....SPENNNND!". Half-way through 2008 "ZOMFG!!!! Me Wants HD4850....sell, SPEEEENNND1!11!".

...to give you a micro-picture.


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

Dang, I just thought about it. This is going to mess up my investor's dream bigtime if it goes through. My conscience is glowing but my wallet is hurting


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## NamesDontMatter (Jul 16, 2008)

Oh btw hey guys chances are theyve done more shit like this and gotten away with alot of it, their involved in many other markets. This is just their karma coming to bite their asses.


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## intel igent (Jul 16, 2008)

i was a victim of the staged pricing  $760 for an x850pe 

don't get me wrong it is/was a great card but it cost almost as much as my whole PC at the time 

kinda pisses me off that i now have a 3850agp that cost me $240


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## newtekie1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Yeah, this isn't really a big surprise.  It isn't hard for two companies to come together and say "Hey, we will both make a killing if we both agree to charge outragous prices for our graphics cards".  Unfortunately, doing that is illegal, unless you're the oil companies.


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## exodusprime1337 (Jul 16, 2008)

just what amd/ati needs. they're already struggling, now we find out that they got issues like this, not good for shareholder relations that's for sure


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## Sasqui (Jul 16, 2008)

intel igent said:


> i was a victim of the staged pricing  $760 for an x850pe
> 
> don't get me wrong it is/was a great card but it cost almost as much as my whole PC at the time
> 
> kinda pisses me off that i now have a 3850agp that cost me $240



Hey, if this is class action, perhaps we'll all end up with a free 4780x2 card, or 280, or perhaps more likely a free Riva TNT? 

This is going to hurt both companies, but looks like they made the bed they now have to sleep in.


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

Sasqui said:


> Hey, if this is class action, perhaps we'll all end up with a free *4780x2* card, or *280*, or perhaps more likely a free *Riva TNT*?
> 
> This is going to hurt both companies, but looks like they made the bed they now have to sleep in.



*Want*, *Want*, *DO NOT WANT*  no really, you can have mine


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## FatForester (Jul 16, 2008)

Eh, I'm not really surprised but I'm glad they'll get reamed for it. I'm more pissed that I bought a 8800GT for $330 bucks then seeing it go down to less than $200 in a matter of... a month.


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## GLD (Jul 16, 2008)

I have not let myself fall victim to the crazy costly cards. A video card should be no more then ~$250 max imo. I can live with the pricing ATi/AMD has had for the 3000 and 4000 series. (besides the X2 cards) Wasn't the 3870 only $229 at launch? That is the way it should be! nVidia's prices have still remained so fooking outrageous it isn't even funny. I am not a fan of lawsuits, but if there is price gouging going on then is needs to be stopped. Thank goodness for the awesome $200 cards from ATi. My 3850 was $199 and I will prob. replace it with a $199 4850. That is they way is should be played.


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## chron (Jul 16, 2008)

FatForester said:


> Eh, I'm not really surprised but I'm glad they'll get reamed for it. I'm more pissed that I bought a 8800GT for $330 bucks then seeing it go down to less than $200 in a matter of... a month.



I'm right there with you, brother.


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## wolf2009 (Jul 16, 2008)

GLD said:


> I have not let myself fall victim to the crazy costly cards. A video card should be no more then ~$250 max imo. I can live with the pricing ATi/AMD has had for the 3000 and 4000 series. (besides the X2 cards) Wasn't the 3870 only $229 at launch? That is the way it should be! nVidia's prices have still remained so fooking outrageous it isn't even funny. I am not a fan of lawsuits, but if there is price gouging going on then is needs to be stopped. Thank goodness for the awesome $200 cards from ATi. My 3850 was $199 and I will prob. replace it with a $199 4850. That is they way is should be played.



i agree with u , i cant spend more than $250 on a card . i'll wait for HD4870 to come down, or i'll get a HD4850 , palit ones .


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Jul 16, 2008)

how long is a 4870 vs a hd 3870?


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

GLD said:


> I have not let myself fall victim to the crazy costly cards. A video card should be no more then ~$250 max imo. I can live with the pricing ATi/AMD has had for the 3000 and 4000 series. (besides the X2 cards) Wasn't the 3870 only $229 at launch? That is the way it should be! nVidia's prices have still remained so fooking outrageous it isn't even funny. I am not a fan of lawsuits, but if there is price gouging going on then is needs to be stopped. Thank goodness for the awesome $200 cards from ATi. My 3850 was $199 and I will prob. replace it with a $199 4850. That is they way is should be played.



Oh how I wish I can spend that little on a card. A 4870 is overkill for me. But I did something stupid. I usually spend about $1000 or so on tech a year, but I set aside a lot more. My wife finally caught on & she made me promise her to give her any money I don't spend on tech after the fiscal yr is over. Well the last fiscal yr ended & I forgot about it - my tech chest had $3700 in it  She blew $2500 of it on a paperweight  Never again :shadedshu The damn thing is fugly as hell too. I'm a buying machine now, even if it means stock too.


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## Tatty_One (Jul 16, 2008)

I have always been convinced that in these days of 2 main CPU players and just 2 main Gfx players, one person owns all 4(3) companies and is just playing games with us all


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## ShinyG (Jul 16, 2008)

Nice find, it was fishy that both AMD and nVidia "avoided" going head to head for a couple of years.  All their cards were separated by 10-15% performance difference and price, with almost no two cards competing  the same price or performance area...


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## xu^ (Jul 16, 2008)

if you guys feel ripped off how u think we feel in the UK ?

a 280gtx costs around £350 and thats cheap = $ 700+ ....  hope that makes u feel better 
(on release it was roughly £460/$900+)

i paid £205/$410 for my 9800gtx and its down to £170/$350  already  

altho the ATI cards are a bit better for us ,HD4850 £130/$260 

we get royally shafted when it comes to tech


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## wolf2009 (Jul 16, 2008)

NamesDontMatter said:


> Shakes head, young gunz these days . . .
> 
> Oh I don't care if they particpate in illegal conspiracy activities, thats no big deal as long as I get a good price its all good. At least read 2-3 pages of the PDF man, that sickens me.




well amd released a card for $200 and prices didn't inflate, they went down, the card can be had for $150 now . and the performance i more than 8800GTX which came at $600 . What more do u want ? do u want them to sell it for $100 and go bankrupt ?


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## chron (Jul 16, 2008)

I can't believe i spent 300 bucks on my x800xl


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## thoughtdisorder (Jul 16, 2008)

Unfortunately it does not surprise me one bit that they have manipulated the consumers.:shadedshu  I bet it's that damn El Nino or Al-Qaeda who's to blame!


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

I just don't like how the mess ended. NV screwed up. They brought out the super 8800GTX & Ultra & charged outrageous prices for it - nearly twice as much as any other card we've seen before. Now we can get a $1000 card's performance for $150. But that's only after they got subpoenaed. Yet they both start this melodrama again with an innocence price war. If you liked the Ultra's prices here - the damn thing was £900 in the UK, yeah that's $1800  For the most point, lawsuits only help the consumer get fair prices, but look at how long it takes. This price war is only a stage for these two companies, more like a cover-up. These idiots need more than this to be put in their places. They need a 3rd party like Intel to break it up. Its much harder to screw around with 3 comps than 2 any day


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## smartali89 (Jul 16, 2008)

:wth:

that is the reason that nVidia cards are so expensive and ATI has much lower prices!

here GTX280 is more then twice priced then HD4870 !

 Conspiracy is what makes them sell their products,

I doubt Intel and Microsoft are doing same,, Microsoft develops more and more hardware eating software, so Intel and other brands can make more expensive hardware.. seeshh...


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## Champ (Jul 16, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Yeah, this isn't really a big surprise.  It isn't hard for two companies to come together and say "Hey, we will both make a killing if we both agree to charge outragous prices for out graphics cards".  *Unfortunately, doing that is illegal, unless you're the oil companies.*



Amen brother


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## Apocolypse007 (Jul 16, 2008)

so when will we actually see the results of this lawsuit? and who will benefit? (seeing as how its class action, I think everyone who bought an ati or nvidia card within the last few years should see something)


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## intel igent (Jul 16, 2008)

anyone else notice how ATi's price's started to come down after the merger with AMD?


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## ShadowFold (Jul 16, 2008)

I wonder why


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## intel igent (Jul 16, 2008)

maybe AMD has some (key word = some) morals


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## WarEagleAU (Jul 16, 2008)

And here I thought AMD had to price low to offer their cards. Now it seems they lost thetop end and couldnt sustain the 500-600 dollar cards. All them pc magazines calling them Value. Good thing I never bought a card during that craze


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## cdawall (Jul 16, 2008)

this is a pointless debate. even if it happened there is nothing we can do now every company wants a high bottom line and considering the hole both companies are in i tihnk that this is stupid the last thing either company needs is a freaking lawsuit...time to watch there stocks tank again.


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

cdawall said:


> this is a pointless debate. even if it happened there is nothing we can do now every company wants a high bottom line and considering the hole both companies are in i tihnk that this is stupid the last thing either company needs is a freaking lawsuit...*time to watch there stocks tank again*.



Already sold mine, I don't feel like losing another $3 grand


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## Darkrealms (Jul 16, 2008)

Tatty_One said:


> I have always been convinced that in these days of 2 main CPU players and just 2 main Gfx players, one person owns all 4(3) companies and is just playing games with us all


Where is Bill Gates !%&%$@
ROFL


Doesn't suprise me.  Wonder if Intels behind it.  Or if someone is looking for a payout.  The timing on both companies right now couldn't be better for that . . .


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## niko084 (Jul 16, 2008)

If anyone is honestly surprised by this they need to think a minute.

Good reason why I have slowed my video card buying and deffinetely not buying the top tier.


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## OnionMan (Jul 16, 2008)

Apocolypse007 said:


> so when will we actually see the results of this lawsuit? and who will benefit? (seeing as how its class action, I think everyone who bought an ati or nvidia card within the last few years should see something)



There will most likely be very little restitution for us.. Forms, confusion, and waiting for months as it's slowly mail out..  But with something like this that isn't the main point.. Stopping it is more important to all of us.. 

The first I heard of this was just a few years ago.. Right after that, AMD grabbed up ATI.. From there on ATI's prices seemed to get lower little by little.. Of course the 38xx line and now the 48xx line has really changed things.. Perhaps AMD stopped this when the took over ATI, and the 38xx line was the first real sign of it.. They knew this was coming.. 

Now Nv drops its prices just days before this yet weeks after the 48xx is released..
Hmmmm..


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 16, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Yeah, this isn't really a big surprise.  It isn't hard for two companies to come together and say "Hey, we will both make a killing if we both agree to charge outragous prices for our graphics cards".  Unfortunately, doing that is illegal, unless you're the oil companies.



lol no kidding ati and nvidia do it and it's a whole legal issue, oil companies do it daily and it's "capitalism" 

this doesn't suprise me at all especially being that the x800/6800-7950/x1950's  had almost identical pricing schemes. seemed too coincidental to me.


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## Ekklesis (Jul 16, 2008)

spectre440 said:


> me too...
> this sucks...



me too...

I divined that the world has become a so "strange" place in last years and is on the slope of destruction...


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## mlupple (Jul 16, 2008)

Class action lawsuits are such shit.  Only a communist would come up with such a thing.  A corrupt lawyer makes millions upon millions while the victims receive a dollar or two.  This is prob bogus anyway.


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## From_Nowhere (Jul 16, 2008)

Kind of sad that a lot of people see oil as the only artificially inflated industry... The tech industry is just as bad, and in some cases worse. It's a good thing this Nvidia & ATI duopoly was brought up because it may help some people "Open their eyes."


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 16, 2008)

what are you all complaining about? in the past 5 years we have seen unprecedented growth in the graphics card market.


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## Darkrealms (Jul 16, 2008)

That was a /yawn interesting read.  The only thing I really learned was how little they were making.  I didn't think the market was that self destructive.  Neither company making hardly any profit or both taking losses?


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## imperialreign (Jul 16, 2008)

well, odd thing is, as much as it's rather apparent looking back (more noticeably how the relations between the two went uber sour after AMD took over ATI);

even if this class action lawsuit did prove it's case - how could AMD be held responsible?


ATI, maybe, as they're still partly seperate, but now under "new management" so-to-speak.


either way, we can't really jump to conclusions until we see the results of the lawsuit as well, and whatever evidence is turned up


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## Darkrealms (Jul 16, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> well, odd thing is, as much as it's rather apparent looking back (more noticeably how the relations between the two went uber sour after AMD took over ATI);
> 
> even if this class action lawsuit did prove it's case - how could AMD be held responsible?
> 
> ...


True and it sounds like if true there's been lots of time to "file" the evidence.  Probably ever since AMD took ATI.  So truth may not matter if there isn't enough proof anyway.  At the least it should make the two companies more wary in the future.


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## Vertol (Jul 16, 2008)

good god ,when the 6800 series came out what kind of money did they make on that ?


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## Tatty_One (Jul 16, 2008)

Vertol said:


> good god ,when the 6800 series came out what kind of money did they make on that ?



And the price of an 8800GTX on release


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## TheGuruStud (Jul 16, 2008)

Vertol said:


> good god ,when the 6800 series came out what kind of money did they make on that ?



I payed $350 for my 6800GT and $400 for an athlon 64 3500.

But if you remember, it was well justified by demand and performance. Nothing could touch them.


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## Megasty (Jul 16, 2008)

That 8800GTX-Ultra BS was the most expensive duo period. Up until then, there was the $500-600 6800Ultra & 7900GTX. The x800-x1900 joined that bull range as well. Then AMD took over ATI. By that time, NV had the 8800GTX in the works. AMD turning over the 2900XT was a huge mistake because that just continued the conspiracy - although they probably unknowingly did it, the darn thing was still an overpriced POS worth only half of its tag.

I don't even know what to call the 8800GTX-U. Sure it was the best, but that price, geez - the price of that thing is the main reason we're seeing this lawsuit mess. The history behind it just drag both companies into the ground.


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## imperialreign (Jul 17, 2008)

Megasty said:


> That 8800GTX-Ultra BS was the most expensive duo period. Up until then, there was the $500-600 6800Ultra & 7900GTX. The x800-x1900 joined that bull range as well. Then AMD took over ATI. By that time, NV had the 8800GTX in the works. AMD turning over the 2900XT was a huge mistake because that just continued the conspiracy - although they probably unknowingly did it, the darn thing was still an overpriced POS worth only half of its tag.
> 
> I don't even know what to call the 8800GTX-U. Sure it was the best, but that price, geez - the price of that thing is the main reason we're seeing this lawsuit mess. The history behind it just drag both companies into the ground.





The Ultras were insanely priced, without a doubt.

ATI have been running with the "no more than $500" market for a while now, at least, IIRC, since the 1950XTX . . .

although . . . anyone remember when ATI were selling 1900 series "crossfire" packages to hold out the upper-end?  Two 1900 series cards sold together in a bundle . . .


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## Megasty (Jul 17, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> The Ultras were insanely priced, without a doubt.
> 
> ATI have been running with the "no more than $500" market for a while now, at least, IIRC, since the 1950XTX . . .
> 
> *although . . . anyone remember when ATI were selling 1900 series "crossfire" packages to hold out the upper-end?  Two 1900 series cards sold together in a bundle* . . .



Yeah, my brother bought them - one of them burned up & no more CF  
It was so hot it burned a hole in the snow when I threw it out the window 
Then he bought 2 9800GTXs, yeah that's just how long he had them :shadedshu


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 17, 2008)

FreedomEclipse said:


> someone call up matrox & tell them how much the enthusiast market is missing them. Matrox have long since confined themselves to a box we call 'industry' - they need to take up arms & come out with a pincer move against ATi/Nv to show the world their absence has not been for nothing....
> 
> either that or one of the 3rd party companies like HiS & XFX, GeCube etc etc need to step out & start makin their own graphics cards.....



Hell Beyond Matrix, Call in Via and PowerVR(NEC)


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## newconroer (Jul 17, 2008)

Megasty said:


> Life sucks AMD & NV doesn't it. _They_ would have probably never found out if the 2 idiots didn't start to fight like cats & dogs.




Or if certain people didn't start bitching and whining about how they couldn't afford their high end products....


Posted by FreedomEclipse 
_someone call up matrox & tell them how much the enthusiast market is missing them. Matrox have long since confined themselves to a box we call 'industry' - they need to take up arms & come out with a pincer move against ATi/Nv to show the world their absence has not been for nothing....

either that or one of the 3rd party companies like HiS & XFX, GeCube etc etc need to step out & start makin their own graphics cards....._


Eh, I'd rather see 3dfx back in the mix; however they once had near $600 cards too, I guess they're a part of the conspiracy!! ;rolls eyes;


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## Megasty (Jul 17, 2008)

newconroer said:


> Or if certain people didn't start bitching and whining about how they couldn't afford their high end products....



There are people out there that don't mind paying extremely high prices for technology, but if the value isn't there then you're just paying for a name. 
I already bought a GTX280, because I thought its value, $450 was pretty damn apparent for its performance. 
This lawsuit BS arose from alegit beginnings of 5 yrs ago when we saw several highend cards from both sides priced at $499. 
The AMD offerings may have been worth it but those FX cards were garbage. It only continued with the next 2 series. 

Competition is one thing, but when you merely charge for a card because of another's price (not performance) then we have a problem.


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## Darkrealms (Jul 17, 2008)

newconroer said:


> Or if certain people didn't start bitching and whining about how they couldn't afford their high end products....
> 
> 
> Posted by FreedomEclipse
> ...


Seconded on that and yeah I was one of the fools that bought the Voodoo5 just before their management killed them . . .  Great products, great drivers, SUCKY management : (

 . . . I have a 3dfx TV Tuner anyone interested, lol.


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## mslide (Jul 17, 2008)

Even is this really happened, I have no sympathy for those that shelled out $500+ for a video card and now feel raped.  What's wrong with you people?  For what purpose?  Just to get a little better frame rate out of the latest and greatest FPS?  

These lawsuits shouldn't even exist.  Only crooked lawyers win.  If you think something's too expensive, don't buy it.  If everyone thought that way, the prices wouldn't be so insane.


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## candle_86 (Jul 17, 2008)

actully whats the issue?

Prices have been raising on these things since 1999 with the TNT2 Ultra. I look at it like this double the power double the price.

The FX cards granted didnt do as well as hoped but there cost to make was still high. 

6800Ultra had 2x the preforamnce of last gen and 2x the preformance of mid range. X800 the same.


7800GTX had 2x the preformace as seen when a single 7800GTX beat two 6800Ultras in SLI. 7900GTX has 2x as powerful as midrange. Ect, Ect. If you want 200 dollar cards untill last year we accepted wed get last gen highend power at best. 6600GT, 7600GT, 8600GT. or 9600pro, x700Pro, x1650XT, HD2600XT. So now we bitch about it. All this is gonna do is crash the video card growth, we are stunting it with our demands


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## mlupple (Jul 18, 2008)

Sure, let's bring NVid, ATI profits down to 1% and see what kind of innovation and new products we get. Early adopters are the ones who finance research and development for these companies.  Stop bitching.  If you had it your way, you wouldn't be able to play Crysis on max for another 20 years.  There are plenty of affordable cards from both companies.  STFU and GTFO and go play Wii.


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## TheGuruStud (Jul 18, 2008)

mlupple said:


> Sure, let's bring NVid, ATI profits down to 1% and see what kind of innovation and new products we get. Early adopters are the ones who finance research and development for these companies.  Stop bitching.  If you had it your way, you wouldn't be able to play Crysis on max for another 20 years.  There are plenty of affordable cards from both companies.  STFU and GTFO and go play Wii.



The Wii


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## brax (Jul 18, 2008)

bah i say who cares, its not like anybody made you go buy either of their products. you made the decision to buy at whatever price...


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## NamesDontMatter (Jul 18, 2008)

mlupple said:


> Sure, let's bring NVid, ATI profits down to 1% and see what kind of innovation and new products we get. Early adopters are the ones who finance research and development for these companies.  Stop bitching.  If you had it your way, you wouldn't be able to play Crysis on max for another 20 years.  There are plenty of affordable cards from both companies.  STFU and GTFO and go play Wii.



You clearly don't know anything about how companies work. You early adopters are paying for the CEO's salary and vacations, not for "R&D" thats always funded by INVESTORS. Basically you line their pockets, congrats!. Nothing better than free money, like those +20 HP chips on ebay free money for the sellers. Not consumers, sorry bud. Wishful thinking though.Returns or profits are gains of the owners, executives, and large shareholders. A small fraction of it will go back into R&D

BTW if you like to think of yourself as a investor go for it, but with rapid depreciation of value of video cards, and low returns for sales/trades after the high end cards "month of fame". So really just a terrible terrible investment, if you want to contribute to R&D buy some shares of AMD or Nvidia.


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## candle_86 (Jul 18, 2008)

that is why i waited to move into the realm of high end, im a late adoptor

Got my 5900XT after the 6800 was out for about 4 months

Got my 6800GT when the 7800GTX 512 came out

Got my 7800GT when the 8800GTX came out

I only broke this rule once, my 8800GTS 512 and how do i miss it, but oh well right?


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## Nyte (Jul 21, 2008)

This is a load of crap.  There's no such thing as a Game Developer's Conference being hosted by PCI-SIG (and there never was).  Trust me, I would know.


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## Ekklesis (Jul 21, 2008)

Champ said:


> So, all the competition is staged?  Sounds more like the WWE to me.  They have have been doing it for so long. no need to stop them now.




Not very logical but surely fun...


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## Ekklesis (Jul 21, 2008)

Nyte said:


> This is a load of crap.  There's no such thing as a Game Developer's Conference being hosted by PCI-SIG (and there never was).  Trust me, I would know.



Ahh?  An "inside" AMD/ATI boy?Ok we trust you...


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## Nyte (Jul 22, 2008)

Ekklesis said:


> Ahh?  An "inside" AMD/ATI boy?Ok we trust you...



Ok... I don't see how that has any relevance to PCI-SIG hosting a Game Developers Conference...

Prove to me that the SIG has hosted such an event and I will personally Paypal you $150.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Jul 22, 2008)

teh bluff, it has been called


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## Palit_Guy (Jul 23, 2008)

Did anyone read the email quote in the law.com article about this?  Let me just post it here for you:



> Vivoli wrote, in part, "I really think we should work harder together on the marketing front. As you and I have talked about, even though we are competitors, we have the common goal of making our category a well positioned, respected playing field. $5 and $8 stocks are a result of no respect." "That's not good for the defense," said Alsup after reading the e-mail aloud in the courtroom. "A jury would like to see this," he said.



To me this means that NV is concerned about the price of their stock.  He's suggesting it's lower than he wants because no one respects either ATI or NV products.  He further suggests that by working together on the marketing front they can increase the relevance of ATI/NV products and make everyone's stock worth more money.

He suggests they work together in the marketing of products, not the pricing of products.  While that could result in an overall increase in selling price of products for both companies as the price of stock goes up, I don't think it really shows they were working together to artificially hold consumers hostage or "fix" pricing.

Check out this link: http://pc.ign.com/articles/382/382684p1.html
It shows the IGN Best of 2002 Awards for PC games.  The first sentence of the article is, "To those who say PC gaming is dead, we say "Nuts!" The best role playing game for that year was Star Trek Bridge Commander and the best action game (pre FPS days I guess) was Mafia.  BF1942 was the runner up (huh?).

This was back in the day of the original fanboi and graphics was all about playing second fiddle to CPU to get crazy performance.  The way I interpret the above email from NV is them recognizing that graphics in general needed to become more important to people and the way to get there was through cooperation between the two companies.  I don't see how artificially inflating the price of graphics cards could achieve that.

On the other hand, if you (as a graphics company) start doing some marketing to show how graphics cards improve a gamer's experience, 1. everyone sells more graphics cards and 2. game developers start to write games that take more advantage of graphics cards.

NV has a whole program (optimized PC, http://www.nvidia.com/object/balancedpc.html ) designed to show you how important the GPU is to getting the best gaming experience.  I couldn't agree with them more on this subject and I'm glad to see they are trying to educate people on the subject.

But I don't think any of this points to price fixing at all.


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## Palit_Guy (Jul 23, 2008)

I think the relative lack of difference in price should always be reviewed but isn't, by itself, a smoking gun.

In the IT industry when two competing products are separated by a compelling difference in performance, the lower performing part typically reduces their price to below that of the higher performing competitor.  AMD and Intel have been playing that game for years.  Intel wins on performance, AMD wins on price.  Expect for that short lived time just before the Core2 came out when AMD was the more expensive part because they had the higher performance.

When lowering your price for the above reason you still have to stay in business so you can't give away the farm just to make up for the performance gap.  So you lower price slowly until you get to the point where sales pick back up and then you leave it alone.  You still want to make as much money as you can.

Therefore, when you find companies in close competition performance-wise, I would expect to see a very narrow margin difference between their selling prices.  In fact, the narrowest margin possible.

Of course, you would see the same narrow margin if they were price fixing so all I'm saying is that just because there is little difference between prices, that isn't a smoking gun sign they are colluding.

So with these two posts, I'm not saying I think they are or they aren't.  Personally, I'm leaning toward not, but it did make it to court.  That tells me there is enough info to warrant an investigation.  But until there is a judgment there's no reason to assume guilt for either party.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 23, 2008)

Any ideas how long it will take till we find out the outcome?


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## Palit_Guy (Jul 23, 2008)

Based on all the TV shows I've ever seen I'd say sometime between never and forever.


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 23, 2008)

very good point at that, btw Palit Guy any idea how the Radeon 4K series are from Palit?


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## Palit_Guy (Jul 23, 2008)

Oh no you don't.  I'm not getting blamed for derailing this one.  Start a new thread and PM me and I'll be happy to answer.  Good stuff on that BTW.


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## TheGuruStud (Jul 23, 2008)

Palit_Guy said:


> Oh no you don't.  I'm not getting blamed for derailing this one.



Classic


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 24, 2008)

Palit_Guy said:


> Oh no you don't.  I'm not getting blamed for derailing this one.  Start a new thread and PM me and I'll be happy to answer.  Good stuff on that BTW.



lmao!!!

ILL START ONE UP

thereya go http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?p=898735#post898735


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