# Metro Exodus and no achievements on EPIC games store.



## Animalpak (Feb 22, 2019)

We all know the rage that caused the choice of 4A games to take off (even if for 1 year) Metro Exodus on Steam.

I bought Metro Exodus on Epic store because I'm a fan of the saga. Epic store is empty ... Contains only keys to buy install and play 

With achievements i have a relationship of love and hate. But i have to say that they give me a sense of completeness if i get one or half of them.

Now having no more achievements on Epic store i have a sense of emptiness.

I have no trace that i have completed the game, nor that i finished with hard difficulty at the first run and i got the good ending.


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## Tomgang (Feb 22, 2019)

Im not imprest by epic store either. Metro Exodos is the first and last game i get on the epic store.

Last week i got Metro and Far Cry new Dawn the day before lauch. Actitivated the games on Epic and Uplay and here is how this went for a start.

Far cry: preloaded just fine thursday.
Metro: No preload. WTF epic?

At midnight (i stayed up late to try metro out):
Far Cry: Right after midnight on Friday, i cut lauch and play the game.
Metro. still no option for preload/download, it ditten even show up in my library yet

Next morning:
Far Cry: just as after midnight ready for action
Metro: finally i cut download the game and then play. After waiting for the game to finish download.

Im not impressed by epic store compared to steam and uplay and as you say there are no achievements either. For not to mention not many of my friends use it ( most only use steam) and that means epic launcher is also a problem when it comes to online gaming with friends. As far i can see or the lag of it is also that you cant even see for how long you have played the game, you can do that in steam.

If you want a game and exspect to play right after midnight on lauch day or even to preload a game, epic launcher is not the one to go with then. Epic fail


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## FYFI13 (Feb 22, 2019)

That sounds epic!


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 22, 2019)

Just for the record, It wasnt 4A games that decided to move to epic - The decision and final decision was made by their publisher Koch Media.

4A games just got taken along for the ride. They have no say in the matter.


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## Lightning (Feb 23, 2019)

More like Cock Media.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 23, 2019)

What is this obsession with achievements?  This is a general question, not directly aimed at the OP.  If they happen, great, but honestly, I’m there to play the game and enjoy the story.

I notice the difference the most when I play games from GOG where I have none.  I don’t need affirmation of my involvement in the storyline, I just interacted with and was deeply embedded in it.  I know when I complete the game, and When I do cool stuff.

What does an achievement get me?  Honestly, nothing.  They might possibly be useful on Uplay, where achievements can allow points to buy some cosmetic additions to the games.  Otherwise they seem to merely be a fluff, without which my self esteem and game enjoyment survive just fine.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 23, 2019)

Animalpak said:


> Now having no more achievements on Epic store i have a sense of emptiness.





Animalpak said:


> I have no trace that i have completed the game, nor that i finished with hard difficulty at the first run and i got the good ending.


Do YOU know you finished the game? If you do, why does it matter if it shows up on some web site? Or is it the bragging rights thing? Kinda shallow really, if that's the case.


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## Animalpak (Feb 23, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Do YOU know you finished the game? If you do, why does it matter if it shows up on some web site? Or is it the bragging rights thing? Kinda shallow really, if that's the case.




Well it is just a personal honor, a collectible (virtual) but it is there. I personally remember it obvious 

I can understand that it does not affect everybody, but i believe that at least if an achievement asks you that to be unlocked you must find secrets or overcome levels in a given way is a challenge.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 23, 2019)

I completed an achievement today.  I had my paycheck deposited in a bank account but the strange thing, was that it doesn't show up anywhere on Steam.  I need to contact them and find out why...must be a glitch.


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## Lightning (Feb 23, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> What is this obsession with achievements?


It's a completionist type of tracking for me. Especially good for games that allow different paths in multiple playthroughs.


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## phanbuey (Feb 23, 2019)

I always like to play one john wick style, and then one oldschool quake 2 shotgun to the face style (silenced if possible). 



 super fun


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## Flogger23m (Feb 23, 2019)

I'd consider that a very serious advantage over Steam. I hate pop ups which is why I run a pop up blocker on my internet browsers. Why Valve hasn't figured out how to implement a pop up blocker on games purchased and running from their store after all these years is beyond me.


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## Super XP (Feb 25, 2019)

Waiting for a Steam Release.  For obvious reasons of course.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 25, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> What is this obsession with achievements?



@FordGT90Concept  hey tell us more about it


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## Super XP (Feb 25, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> What does an achievement get me?  Honestly, nothing.  They might possibly be useful on Uplay, where achievements can allow points to buy some cosmetic additions to the games.



*Steam Achievements* get your Hero Cookies that are mailed to you every month once you collected enough achievement points. Choose from Chocolate, Valina, Strawberry and the Steam favorite Double Chocolate Delight. Yummy.


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## Flogger23m (Feb 25, 2019)

Super XP said:


> *Steam Achievements* get your Hero Cookies that are mailed to you every month once you collected enough achievement points. Choose from Chocolate, Valina, Strawberry and the Steam favorite Double Chocolate Delight. Yummy.



You also get pop ups, the best thing ever. 

Someone needs to develop a pop up/achievement blocker plug in for Steam.


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## 64K (Jun 6, 2019)

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I didn't think this news is worth a new thread.

Metro Exodus will be coming to the Windows Store in 3 days for anyone that just won't buy it from the Epic Store there is now a second choice.









						Metro Exodus is coming to Windows Store on June 9th
					

Now here is something really interesting. Microsoft has launched the Windows Store page for Metro Exodus, confirming that this previously exclusive to the Epic Games Store title will be coming to its store on June 9th. We expect Microsoft to officially reveal the game’s launch during its E3 2019...




					www.dsogaming.com


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 6, 2019)

I guess sales of the game were so mediocre that another deal was bartered in a desperate attempt to spread the net wider but  of course, doing what they did with steam they might be trying to save face by leaving steam as the LAST place they would go back to.

I know M$ is trying to work on some cross platform thing with their games meaning that if you buy a copy of their game for any platform then it will run on PC and on their consoles. But i question this move. Not a lot of people like Microsoft store either. but i guess it has more features and has been around longer than EGS. At least achievement hunters can now get their fix.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2019)

Animalpak said:


> We all know the rage that caused the choice of 4A games to take off (even if for 1 year) Metro Exodus on Steam.
> 
> I bought Metro Exodus on Epic store because I'm a fan of the saga. Epic store is empty ... Contains only keys to buy install and play
> 
> ...




Uplay does achievements better than Steam though, and I don't hear you asking Steam to change.  I find achievements extremely useless and boring on Steam, but Uplay gives me rewards that real life money can not buy, in-game rewards I mean. So it makes doing achievements in Uplay much more satisfying, and it's usually pretty awesome rewards.  Steam could have regular achievements and then offer support for games that want to offer Luxury Achievements, opt-in only, same as the standard one is now.


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## Super XP (Jun 6, 2019)

Bring it onto Steam already. 
Let the gamer choose which platform they prefer not epic. 

Seems Epic is causing the developers to make a lot less by signing nonsense exclusivity deals. 

I'm waiting for a Steam Release Period.


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## 64K (Jun 6, 2019)

imo the initial sales are long gone and new sales have stagnated so Deep Silver is looking for ways to increase their exposure to sell their game. I think Steam will be a good boost in sales but that's not until next year.


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## ShurikN (Jun 6, 2019)

So the publisher went from the store majority of people dislike to a store that everyone dislikes. Makes sense. Also if there was exclusivity with the EGS for one year than no other PC platform should have gotten it at all. This all seems like the exclusivity was a "NOT ON STEAM" deal rather than EGS only deal... Time will tell.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 6, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> I guess sales of the game were so mediocre that another deal was bartered


You are inferring a lot, when Epic is just as close-mouthed about sales numbers as Steam is.



ShurikN said:


> the store majority of people dislike to a store that everyone dislikes.


Well, you are attributing the very vocal but small number of complainers as a majority. I would never make assumptions like that. Facts are needed to conclude that.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 6, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> You are inferring a lot, when Epic is just as close-mouthed about sales numbers as Steam is.



EGS has already said that it sold 2.5x more than Metro: LL. THQ Said that it "exceeded expectations" but they havent really been singing it to the stars and back like most publishers would

Anyway... I read somewhere that there were 250k copies sold. Epic claims that 41million people use its platform. if only 250k people out of 41million bought the game then it sold rather badly hence they reaching out to Microsoft.

The most units sold were probably on steam when the publisher announced they would be pulling it from steam.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 6, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> EGS has already said that it sold 2.5x more than Metro: LL. THQ Said that it "exceeded expectations" but they havent really been singing it to the stars and back like most publishers would
> 
> Anyway... I read somewhere that there were 250k copies sold. Epic claims that 41million people use its platform. if only 250k people out of 41million bought the game then it sold rather badly hence they reaching out to Microsoft.
> 
> The most units sold were probably on steam when the publisher announced they would be pulling it from steam.


I don’t think a lot sold on Steam, since that was all pre-order. Numbers of reviews is usually very representative in knowing how well a game sold, even if we don’t know the ratio. Last month there were only 4,000 or so reviews on Exodus on Steam, so it implies preorder numbers were slight. 

A handful of games have ever sold over 10 million on PC,  much less the 41 million you seem to feel it should be capable of. That’s not a very fair assessment at all.

THQ also wasn’t very happy with the move that Deep Silver made to EGS, and forbade them making independent moves like that again. My guess is they are eager for the one year exclusivity agreement to be gone.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 6, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I don’t think a lot sold on Steam, since that was all pre-order. Numbers of reviews is usually very representative in knowing how well a game sold, even if we don’t know the ratio. Last month there were only 4,000 or so reviews on Exodus on Steam, so it implies preorder numbers were slight.
> 
> A handful of games have ever sold over 10 million on PC,  much less the 41 million you seem to feel it should be capable of. That’s not a very fair assessment at all.
> 
> THQ also wasn’t very happy with the move that Deep Silver made to EGS, and forbade them making independent moves like that again. My guess is they are eager for the one year exclusivity agreement to be gone.



Each to their own. Ive heard that the BIGGEST spike in sales since the EGS announcement was pre-orders on steam and EGS didnt get the same sort of 'crazy rush' for the game when they released it on their platform.

But then again, given how hyped up the game was, youd think for a platform that boasts about how many active users/players it has that it couldnt even sell at least 1million copies?? Let me guess all these 'active' users are just fortnight players.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 6, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Each to their own. Ive heard that the BIGGEST spike in sales since the EGS announcement was pre-orders on steam and EGS didnt get the same sort of 'crazy rush' for the game when they released it on their platform.
> 
> But then again, given how hyped up the game was, youd think for a platform that boasts about how many active users/players it has that it couldnt even sell at least 1million copies?? Let me guess all these 'active' users are just fortnight players.


Again, we don’t ACTUALLY know the sales figures. No one actually has any legitimate ones.  It’s really not a case of to each his own, it’s just taking a step back and looking at the facts available, which are few.  Many people though have taken special action about facts to the next level in the quest to try to make their case as they see it.

I personally know quite a few people that have the game., and everyone on here that has played it talks glowingly of it.  That big spike, btw was only 24 hours. That’s a very small period of time.  And it IS only what you heard.

The problem in your perspective is that no matter what the subject, be it politics or r movies or books or manufactured products or games, we rarely hear from satisfied people. Complainers tend to be vocal and thus always convey a perception of a greater percentage of numbers than they actually represent.


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## Super XP (Jun 6, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> EGS has already said that it sold 2.5x more than Metro: LL. THQ Said that it "exceeded expectations" but they havent really been singing it to the stars and back like most publishers would
> 
> Anyway... I read somewhere that there were 250k copies sold. Epic claims that 41million people use its platform. if only 250k people out of 41million bought the game then it sold rather badly hence they reaching out to Microsoft.
> 
> The most units sold were probably on steam when the publisher announced they would be pulling it from steam.


41 Million Epic platform users? Only when they dream. I don't trust Epics numbers because I've read somewhere that they count daily logins, where one individual would have multiple logins.



rtwjunkie said:


> You are inferring a lot, when Epic is just as close-mouthed about sales numbers as Steam is.
> 
> 
> Well, you are attributing the very vocal but small number of complainers as a majority. I would never make assumptions like that. Facts are needed to conclude that.


You mean a Smallnorous amount of complaints,  enough to make front page PC Gaming news.
It's the fact that Epic wanted exclusivity for 1 year gives the sour taste to millions of people.

Taking the Gamers Choice AWAY and shoving it down the Arsis. That alone is enough to send a message we don't want Epic malware on our PC.


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## Vayra86 (Jun 6, 2019)

Super XP said:


> You mean a Smallnorous amount of complaints,  enough to make front page PC Gaming news.
> It's the fact that Epic wanted exclusivity for 1 year gives the sour taste to millions of people.
> 
> Taking the Gamers Choice AWAY and shoving it down the Arsis. That alone is enough to send a message we don't want Epic malware on our PC.



Come on, if Gaben has a wet fart in the morning its also front page PC gaming news, let's not act like this EGS exclusivity deal is setting the world on fire now because really, it doesn't. What constitutes as 'gaming news' is anything that is trending at the time, simply because when gamers don't game, they lurk around trying very hard not to do anything useful regardless 

Average 'feeling' of the amount of internet rage is a pretty bad thing to go on if you want to relate it to actual sales numbers. Its a black box, the better half you read is lies and the other half is inflated enough to get an upvote on Reddit.

Also, gamer's 'choice' was never a thing, and no Steam wasn't all about gamer's choice either, the store exists to monopolize digital game distribution since it got big on a few Valve releases. They just have a different business model that suited their timing of getting to market, they had the advantage of doing something new at the time. Anyone who says 'for the gamers' should be shot in the face, they're just using marketing on you. Everything serves to make money, and if that can be sold as gamers' choice its bonus.

The only choices here are those you have as a consumer: buy now, buy later, or don't buy. That goes for every store and every product and EGS changed nothing about that.

Now if you don't mind Im gonna fire up one of the few dozen free games we got in the last few months out of GOG, Uplay, Origin and EGS. Who said we didn't benefit from competition?  And what platform is missing from that list? Oh yeah! Damn! I wonder why...


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## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

The only thing I get from Epic is the free games


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## Flogger23m (Jun 6, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I find achievements extremely useless and boring on Steam, *but Uplay gives me rewards that real life money can not buy, in-game rewards I mean. *So it makes doing achievements in Uplay much more satisfying, and it's usually pretty awesome rewards.



That should be illegal. And any non-opt in pop ups (achievements) should be illegal as well. If you pay for a game you shouldn't be forced to have pop ups. Still waiting for Steam to allow you to disable them. Only been over a decade. In some instances pirated copies are superior to Steam copies because of it. I don't remember which game it was, but I originally used a pirated version and then bought a Steam copy. Steam copy was outright inferior due to the constant pop ups.

Ubisoft is a sleazy company and they're designing games like Assassin's Creed Odyssey around paying for boosters to play the game as its meant to be played as well, so their achievement scheme doesn't amaze me. Between bastardizing many game series (Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six ect.) and their bussiness practices they're making themselves the most disgusting gaming company around. At least EA has the decency to kill a game series off before running it through the mud.



rtwjunkie said:


> Again, we don’t ACTUALLY know the sales figures.



The only thing we know is Exodus sold 2.5 times better on PC than Last Light, where as it only sold 1.5 times better on consoles. This can mean many things:

- Maybe LL was a poor seller on PC
- Maybe LL was a great seller on console
- Maybe Exodus was a poor seller on console
- Maybe Exodus was a great seller on PC


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 6, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Ubisoft is a sleazy company and they're designing games like Assassin's Creed Odyssey around paying for boosters to play the game as its meant to be played as well,


This is so absolutely, thoroughly and completely false.  The game can be completely and successfully played and enjoyed without buying a damned thing.  I’ve put in over 275 hours on the game, so actually speak from experience.



Flogger23m said:


> The only thing we know is Exodus sold 2.5 times better on PC than Last Light, where as it only sold 1.5 times better on consoles. This can mean many things:
> 
> - Maybe LL was a poor seller on PC
> - Maybe LL was a great seller on console
> ...


I can completely agree with all this, because we basically don’t know anything.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2019)

64K said:


> Metro Exodus will be coming to the Windows Store in 3 days for anyone that just won't buy it from the Epic Store there is now a second choice.


That's a worse choice, not better. (Thanks for the heads up though)

Seriously devs? Are you mocking us with this nonsense?

Allow me to spell it out for you;
*GOG DOT COM *

When you get on it you'll get my money, not until then..


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## moproblems99 (Jun 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a worse choice, not better. (Thanks for the heads up though)



And here I thought it was about choice.  They doubled everyone's choices and the bitching continues....


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## 64K (Jun 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a worse choice, not better. (Thanks for the heads up though)
> 
> Seriously devs? Are you mocking us with this nonsense?
> 
> ...



It's all a clusterfuck at this point.

A week from now Deep Silver might announce a GOG release. Who knows.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> And here I thought it was about choice.  They doubled everyone's choices and the bitching continues....


It's a crap choice and an effective slap in the face to the people who have been asking for a better choice to the Epic store. People have been asking for Steam and GOG releases, not the Windows store. Eff them and their lame-duck move. It's almost insulting.



64K said:


> It's all a clusterfuck at this point.


It's been that way since the exclusivity thing started.


64K said:


> A week from now Deep Silver might announce a GOG release. Who knows.


That would be excellent! Not holding my breath though.


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## moproblems99 (Jun 6, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's a crap choice and an effective slap in the face to the people who have been asking for a better choice to the Epic store. People have been asking for Steam and GOG releases, not the Windows store. Eff them and their lame-duck move. It's almost insulting.
> 
> 
> It's been that way since the exclusivity thing started.
> ...



So choice isn't good?


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> So choice isn't good?


Not when it's a crappy one. Might as well not have the extra choice at all. But that's just my opinion as I'm not a fan of the Microsoft store. Other people might like this option and I say more power to them if they like being spied on by Microsoft.


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## neatfeatguy (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a worse choice, not better. (Thanks for the heads up though)
> 
> Seriously devs? Are you mocking us with this nonsense?
> 
> ...



You're more forgiving than I. I've already decided to pass on any game from any developer that is tied into an exclusivity deal, even after the deal ends and it moves to other places to purchase it from.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 7, 2019)

neatfeatguy said:


> You're more forgiving than I. I've already decided to pass on any game from any developer that is tied into an exclusivity deal, even after the deal ends and it moves to other places to purchase it from.


Well, it’s certainly your choice, but you’ll be missing out on what really is near the peak of single-player gaming.  That’s rarified air up there.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2019)

Animalpak said:


> Now having no more achievements on Epic store i have a sense of emptiness.


I'm the opposite: I feel a sense of freedom for games that don't have achievements.  I can play until *I'm* satisfied.


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## Super XP (Jun 7, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Come on, if Gaben has a wet fart in the morning its also front page PC gaming news, let's not act like this EGS exclusivity deal is setting the world on fire now because really, it doesn't. What constitutes as 'gaming news' is anything that is trending at the time, simply because when gamers don't game, they lurk around trying very hard not to do anything useful regardless
> 
> Average 'feeling' of the amount of internet rage is a pretty bad thing to go on if you want to relate it to actual sales numbers. Its a black box, the better half you read is lies and the other half is inflated enough to get an upvote on Reddit.
> 
> ...


Blame publisher Koch Media for the exclusivity BS deal. Anyhow that hurt overall Metro Exodus Sales. We don't need data to tell us basic facts.
Many people own the original Metro 2033 and Last Light, on Steam. And we are all waiting for Exodus once it's available on Steam, for a discount of course, seeing how it's going to be a 1 year old game.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 7, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Anyhow that hurt overall Metro Exodus Sales. We don't need data to tell us basic facts.


And you know this “fact” based on what fact?  Hate is not a fact, it’s a feeling.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

neatfeatguy said:


> You're more forgiving than I. I've already decided to pass on any game from any developer that is tied into an exclusivity deal, even after the deal ends and it moves to other places to purchase it from.


I feel you and understand your perspective. And you're right I am on the forgiving side, even though sometime it doesn't seem that way. I believe in giving people, and companies, a change to redeem themselves because change can and does happen. 

For example, Nintendo. Their policy about monetization on Youtube was one of the most deplorable, greedy and anti-social moves they've ever made. After a sheer Mt. Everest of feedback, and bad press they changed their minds and their stance to be more agreeable with the public and their gaming audience. While that was going on I didn't by a single title from them, digital or physical, unless it was a used title. I know I wasn't alone in that stance. They changed and redeemed themselves in that area. Now, no worries. Boycotting works. Civilized public outrage works. So how does that apply here?

My choice not to reward the dev/publisher of Metro Exodus with money until they release the title in question on the platform I use is a tactic that can and has worked. It's already working as they'd opened it up for sale on the Windows store. Not a great choice at all, but it does show that they are willing to listen to their potential audience. Perhaps they can be made to realize that some of us do not compromise our principles and will not be enticed to.


rtwjunkie said:


> Well, it’s certainly your choice, but you’ll be missing out on what really is near the peak of single-player gaming.  That’s *rarefied* air up there.


That was a bit passive aggressive. While it was a valid point, everyone has the right to stand their ground and some people have different levels of commitment to their personal principles.



rtwjunkie said:


> And you know this “fact” based on what fact?


Because of the public outrage and the overwhelming theme of comments on the web stating they are not buying or using the Epic store because of this? In this case bad-press is actually bad.


rtwjunkie said:


> Hate is not a fact, it’s a feeling.


I didn't sense any hate in his comment. Please don't over-react.


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## moproblems99 (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was a bit passive aggressive. While it was a valid point, everyone has the right to stand their ground and some people have different levels of commitment to their personal principles.



After playing the game, I would potentially sell my soul if I could not get it any other way.  Second favorite game besides TW3.  Game is absolutely fantastic.  Ending pissed me off but it really makes you feel human.


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## metalfiber (Jun 7, 2019)

I remember going  50 miles for a game and people holler now if you've gotta double click something different.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> I remember going  50 miles for a game and people holler now if you've gotta double click something different.


You're missing the point. Some people are not going to support the Epic store(or Windows store, EA's Origin, Ubisoft's client, Etc, Etc) because of the undesired and unacceptable DRM. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's a level of intrusion we are unwilling to accept. For people like us, if you want our money, you give us a product on our terms. Otherwise we say piss off! And we are growing in number.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2019)

EGS doesn't have DRM unless the publisher put it in.



lexluthermiester said:


> For people like us, if you want our money, you give us a product on our terms.


Nope.  You accept *their* terms, not the other way around; it has always been that way.  Rejecting their terms means no game for you.


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## metalfiber (Jun 7, 2019)

Until they updated it, Metro ran it off of the exe in the game folder and the store didn't even pop up. Steam uses Denuvo and it's in house DRM so the point is what now.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Nope. You accept *their* terms, not the other way around


Not on GOG. We buy it, we own for life, we play it at our discretion.


FordGT90Concept said:


> it has always been that way. Rejecting their terms means no game for you.


Incorrect. Back in the days of carts and CD's and even some PC's, there were no EULA's.


metalfiber said:


> Steam uses Denuvo and it's in house DRM so the point is what now.


Metro Exodus isn't on Steam which is what the big deal is.. And the joke of a company Denuvo is not owned by Valve, the parent company of Steam. Thinking you need to do some catch-up on events...


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was a bit passive aggressive. While it was a valid point, everyone has the right to stand their ground and some people have different levels of commitment to their personal principles.


Nope not passive aggressive. I pointed out that the only person he is hurting is himself...the game is that good.


lexluthermiester said:


> Because of the public outrage and the overwhelming theme of comments on the web stating they are not buying or using the Epic store because of this? In this case bad-press is actually bad.


Don’t exaggerate. There has been a vocal minority. And even that has faded away. The only people that make alot of noise over any topic in the world are those voicing negatives. They get press or get noticed, but loud noise doesn’t mean overwhelming. If it was truly an overwhelmingly wave not buying the game then there would certainly be news on that victory. No, what we have are a vocal minority that don’t understand life is short, and putting off enjoyment till next year does no good when they could be dead next week.


lexluthermiester said:


> I didn't sense any hate in his comment. Please don't over-react


Well if you’ve been paying attention, he has been THE single most hateful toward Metro Exodus and EPIC since the exclusive announcement.  I pay attention to who the over-dramatics are, so no, it’s not an overreaction.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not on GOG. We buy it, we own for life, we play it at our discretion.











						GOG User Agreement
					

Hello, GOG user! We hope you have a great time playing games and doing other cool things via GOG.COM and the GOG GALAXY application. We've put a lot of work into building GOG.COM and GOG GALAXY and...




					support.gog.com
				





> We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.





> When you buy, access or install GOG games, you might have to agree to additional contract terms with the developer/publisher of the game (e.g. they might ask you to agree to a game specific End User Licence Agreement). If there is any inconsistency or dispute between those ‘EULAs’ and this Agreement, then this Agreement wins.


Publishers give GOG the rights to distribute their IP and GOG extends the right to use the IP to buyers: just as it was on floppies.  Only difference is no physical medium anymore.  The legalese (contract) is largely the same.



lexluthermiester said:


> Incorrect. Back in the days of carts and CD's and even some PC's, there were no EULA's.


Yes, there were.  They were usually in the manual and/or cooked into the installer and/or help documentation.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Nope not passive aggressive. I pointed out that the only person he is hurting is himself...the game is that good.


Sure it was.


rtwjunkie said:


> Well if you’ve been paying attention, he has been THE single most hateful toward Metro Exodus and EPIC since the exclusive announcement.


Maybe, but that particular comment was not.


rtwjunkie said:


> I pay attention to who the over-dramatics are, so no, it’s not an overreaction.


Oh ok. Sounds like a waste of time and energy. You do realize you are, on occasion, one of them, right? Just throwing it out there. But it's all good, I like you just the same. 

I on the other hand don't care. I take comments on a per-instance basis, regardless of who making them. This minimizes "traveling bias" and generally keeps objective thinking easier.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Publishers give GOG the rights to distribute their IP and GOG extends the right to use the IP to buyers: just as it was on floppies. Only difference is no physical medium anymore. The legalese (contract) is largely the same.


You're not wrong. However, in the United States the wording of such documentation much adhere to statutory rights. While I'm not going to go into that here, what I said above applies as the effective way it works under what is actually enforceable. So effectively, what I stated is correct.


FordGT90Concept said:


> Yes, there were. They were usually in the manual and/or cooked into the installer and/or help documentation.


I just got out a couple of my NES games and looked through the manuals. Nope, no EULA. Same with SNES, N64, Sega Saturn and PSX. Sorry bub, you're incorrect about that..



rtwjunkie said:


> Don’t exaggerate. There has been a vocal minority.


Back on topic, Metro Exodus might actually see a GOG release this year. Such is only a rumor, but if true it would seem that enough of us made the right kind of noise that it has made the big-wigs rethink their strategy and realize that they will make much more money by being on many platforms rather than just one. However, they seem to have a grudge against Steam. Kind of odd.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Metro Exodus isn't on Steam which is what the big deal is.. And the joke of a company Denuvo is not owned by Valve, the parent company of Steam. Thinking you need to do some catch-up on events...



Yes i know Denuvo not owned by Steam and it's up to the publisher weather to use it or not. In the same token, it's up to the publisher weather they use steam or not. It's true by the very same same token it's up to us where we buy from. I personally could give two hoots to where i buy a great game from and horror of all horrors i've even bought great games for a PS4 before.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're not wrong. However, in the United States the wording of such documentation much adhere to statutory rights. While I'm not going to go into that here, what I said above applies as the effective way it works under what is actually enforceable. So effectively, what I stated is correct.


Just because GOG doesn't implement a kill switch doesn't mean they can't revoke the license which, in legalese, means you're in breach of contract if you use it post termination.



lexluthermiester said:


> I just got out my couple of my NES games and looked through the manuals. Nope, no EULA. Same with SNES, N64, Sega Saturn and PSX. Sorry bub, you're incorrect about that.


I pulled out the Syphon Filter disc and on the rim, it says "Unauthorized copying, reproduction, rental, public performance or broadcast of this game is a violation of applicable laws."  "Applicable laws" is copyright law in general which leads me to the infamous Anti-Piracy Warning logo which was first used in 1956.  It's use became common in the 1980s on arcade machines.








						Welcome to fbi.gov | Federal Bureau of Investigation
					






					www.fbi.gov
				




Even without a binding EULA, all games are broadly protected under copyright law which began in 1790.

Copyright notices didn't become common place until the compact disc where material costs to create a pirate copy literally became cents.  Sony did it with the PlayStation and Nintendo did it with GameCube.  From Wind Waker manual, page 30: "WARNING: Copying of any Nintendo game is illegal and is strictly prohibited by domestic and international intellectual property laws."  It goes on and on about the specifics, even covering copyright on the manual itself.

EULAs were much more common place on PC games much earlier than consoles because they had to be distributed on easily copied media.  Recall this 1992 ad campaign:









I would dig up the manual from A-Train (late 1980s PC game) but it's out of reach at the moment...  Remind me in six hours. 



lexluthermiester said:


> Back on topic, Metro Exodus might actually see a GOG release this year. Such is only a rumor, but if true it would seem that enough of us made the right kind of noise that it has made the big-wigs rethink their strategy and realize that they will make much more money by being on many platforms rather than just one. However, they seem to have a grudge against Steam. Kind of odd.


DeepSilver said that themselves back when they made it EGS exclusive.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Incorrect. Back in the days of carts and CD's and even some PC's, there were no EULA's.



Ehhh... wrong. Terms of Use were included in software even prior to CD ROM.

You're now on the idea of DRM related to Epic but that got debunked so you're left grasping at straws (once again). How about admitting you were completely wrong first instead of another series of blatantly wrong statements you will _also _not correct, but instead defend again. You had to jump over to _console games to defend your point and find 'no EULA'._ We are talking about PC games, you know, on physical media not protected by a firmware or a hardware configuration such as a console cartridge?

Of course you're going to come out with some nebulous argument now to keep saying you were right all along. Im going to ignore that one, just so you know.

Epic and DRM have no relationship at all. In that sense, its closer to GOG than Steam ever was. Your personal ownership/anti DRM crusade has no value here whatsoever. We get it, you like GOG. Great.

Seriously the amount of nonsense I've read surrounding EGS, its policy and/or its supposed intent is staggering. To me it only underlines the 10-year old temper tantrum mode people got into - even grown adults like yourself. Crazy. Logical thought and proper reading is out the window completely, it seems.



Super XP said:


> Blame publisher Koch Media for the exclusivity BS deal. Anyhow that hurt overall Metro Exodus Sales. We don't need data to tell us basic facts.
> Many people own the original Metro 2033 and Last Light, on Steam. And we are all waiting for Exodus once it's available on Steam, for a discount of course, seeing how it's going to be a 1 year old game.



Why would I blame a publisher for doing business? I don't own the IP.

Who is this 'we' you speak of? Some nondescript Reddit group? 'Steam users', of which the better half already has EGS installed (41 million installations has to include some Steam user base, right?)? Did you know that a large number of people just buy a game, and then see what platform the key is even for? The larger part of them shrugs when they see Epic logo, clicks install and plays the game.

All the numbers that we dó have, suggest EGS made some sales over there. Historically we also know that games keep selling post-launch, so the number will rise. They'll probably add a few discounts left and right (already did recently) so that will again boost sales.

There is little reason to believe there is any difference to a Steam listing, though I'm sure it may have picked up a bit later, and I'm also sure there's a group (no idea about size) that will wait for a Steam release. But its impossible to say with certainty anything more than that.


----------



## Super XP (Jun 7, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> EGS doesn't have DRM unless the publisher put it in.
> 
> 
> Nope.  You accept *their* terms, not the other way around; it has always been that way.  Rejecting their terms means no game for you.


You accept there terms? The same terms that have been moulded through years of customer feedback.....


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Rejecting their terms means no game for you.


It also means no money from us for them. Yes, yes.


FordGT90Concept said:


> Just because GOG *can't* implement a kill switch


Fixed that for you.


FordGT90Concept said:


> doesn't mean they can't revoke the license which, in legalese, means you're in breach of contract if you use it post termination.


No they can't do that either. See below..


FordGT90Concept said:


> I pulled out the Syphon Filter disc and on the rim, it says "Unauthorized copying, reproduction, rental, public performance or broadcast of this game is a violation of applicable laws." "Applicable laws" is copyright law in general which leads me to the infamous Anti-Piracy Warning logo which was first used in 1956. It's use became common in the 1980s on arcade machines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes and such laws are subject to and are superseded by statutory rights of the citizen.


FordGT90Concept said:


> DeepSilver said that themselves back when they made it EGS exclusive.


Oh, they did? Must have missed that. LOL!



Vayra86 said:


> Ehhh... wrong. Terms of Use were included in software even prior to CD ROM.


Ok, show us.


Vayra86 said:


> You're now on the idea of DRM related to Epic but that got debunked


No it didn't. Epic uses DRM of the "online presence required" variety. Unacceptable.


Vayra86 said:


> How about admitting you were completely wrong first instead of another series of blatantly wrong statements you will _also _not correct, but instead defend again.


Maybe if you paid closer attention to context you might have understood what I was trying to explain. More on that below..


Vayra86 said:


> Epic and DRM have no relationship at all.


Rubbish! Tried using it? I have just for giggles and the client insists on having an active internet connection to run itself, and run games. Sorry, no bueno.


Vayra86 said:


> We get it, you *love* GOG. Great.


Fixed that for you. And for the record, I *loath* DRM in *any form* without reservation and very rarely tolerate it. Just so we're clear on that.

As for EULA's; A good portion of the terms in them are unenforceable under legal statues. Companies know this but include the unenforceable terms anyway as an act of CYA and intimidation hoping for the ignorance of the public to maintain the illusion. User rights are actually far greater than what most people understand. Companies and copyright holders want that illusion to continue so they can keep some semblance of control over their creations. In reality, if an end user fights for their rights, they will come out on top 99% of the time. You can put anything into an EULA, but it's what you can actually enforce that counts. Just because a person agrees to those "terms" doesn't automatically mean all of those terms are actually enforceable, which is why most EULA's and contracts in general have a clause that states something along the lines of; " If any potion of this agreement proves to be unenforceable or invalid, the remaining potion of the agreement remains in full effect. " It's all word-play and much of it is rubbish most of the time.

In effect, if you paid for it and you posses it, you have the right to use it(within the realms of personal use) without restriction regardless of the intentions of the copyright holder. That right can not lawfully be revoked without good cause. This is why Microsoft will activate any copy of Windows now. They know full well they do not have the authority to restrict use of a paid for copy of Windows. They can only black list keys if they can prove the keys are in public distribution. Why do you think game and software publishers want to get everyone on streaming subscription services? Hmmm? Is it because it's profitable? Or is it because that is the only way they can completely control the software?

Copyright owners can claim that it's not a "sale" and that it is just a "license", but the ultimate legalities of such are dubious and always have been. Such concepts require the presence of ignorance, not the presence of knowledge.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 7, 2019)

Super XP said:


> You accept there terms? The same terms that have been moulded through years of customer feedback.....



I mean you accept terms every time you play again.  Want to play?  Better accept them.



lexluthermiester said:


> No it didn't. Epic uses DRM of the "online presence required" variety. Unacceptable.
> 
> Rubbish! Tried using it? I have just for giggles and the client insists on having an active internet connection to run itself, and run games. Sorry, no bueno.



Hmmmmm.  That's odd.  Why can I unplug my ethernet cable and still play Exodus?  What's going on?  Am I in another dimension or does someone not know what they are talking about?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Hmmmmm.  That's odd.  Why can I unplug my ethernet cable and still play Exodus?  What's going on?  Am I in another dimension or does someone not know what they are talking about?


Is that after you've started the game or before? To be fair it's been a while since I checked, have they done away with the online presence requirement? That's one of my biggest problems with Epic. If the DRM is gone, they're cool in my book.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Is that after you've started the game or before? To be fair it's been a while since I checked, have they done away with the online presence requirement? That's one of my biggest problems with Epic. If the DRM is gone, they're cool in my book.



No internet, no EGS started, play game.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> No internet, no EGS started, play game.


So to clarify, you're starting the game directly, without the Epic client and no internet connection? If this is true, Epic has changed how they're doing things and a revisit is in order. Also can anyone else verify this? And is this just with Metro Exodus or is it with all/most of the games in the Epic store?


----------



## robot zombie (Jun 7, 2019)

I can confirm that Metro Exodus will start independently of the launcher with no internet. Can't tell you what the story is with other games.

But I think it's just an oversight. If you try to start the game from the launcher instead of directly via the exe, it still refuses to launch when not online. The launcher will give you a message in the form of a pop up and a red bar atop the launcher. Maybe they never thought nobody would try doing that?

Even the desktop and start bar shortcuts don't work offline - seems they buck through the launcher first. I seriously wonder if maybe they thought nobody would bother to dig up the actual exe for the game and try it. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 8, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> I can confirm that Metro Exodus will start independently of the launcher with no internet. Can't tell you what the story is with other games.
> 
> But I think it's just an oversight. If you try to start the game from the launcher instead of directly via the exe, it still refuses to launch when not online. The launcher will give you a message in the form of a pop up and a red bar atop the launcher. Maybe they never thought nobody would try doing that?
> 
> Even the desktop and start bar shortcuts don't work offline - seems they buck through the launcher first. I seriously wonder if maybe they thought nobody would bother to dig up the actual exe for the game and try it. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.



Yep, my shortcut is to the direct game file.  The only time you need an active connection is if the game developer requires it.

Edit:  It would be interesting to see if it could run without EGS even being installed.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> I can confirm that Metro Exodus will start independently of the launcher with no internet. Can't tell you what the story is with other games.
> 
> But I think it's just an oversight. If you try to start the game from the launcher instead of directly via the exe, it still refuses to launch when not online. The launcher will give you a message in the form of a pop up and a red bar atop the launcher. Maybe they never thought nobody would try doing that?
> 
> Even the desktop and start bar shortcuts don't work offline - seems they buck through the launcher first. I seriously wonder if maybe they thought nobody would bother to dig up the actual exe for the game and try it. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.


Thanks for the clarification. That was my experience, except that I didn't try running the game exe directly.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> So to clarify, you're starting the game directly, without the Epic client and no internet connection? If this is true, Epic has changed how they're doing things and a revisit is in order. Also can anyone else verify this? And is this just with Metro Exodus or is it with all/most of the games in the Epic store?


I can confirm that Observation, Stories Untold and Close To The Sun start deirectly from the game folder without EGS started and without EGS being started because of it.

However, Metro Exodus will not allow me to play from the folder. I must have EGS started first. 

My guess is that is a Deep Silver stipulation to the game, as the other games all have different publishers.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I can confirm that Observation, Stories Untold and Close To The Sun start directly from the game folder without EGS started and without EGS being started because of it.
> 
> *However, Metro Exodus will not allow me to play from the folder. I must have EGS started first.*
> 
> My guess is that is a Deep Silver stipulation to the game, as the other games all have different publishers.


This is getting interesting. Two sets of experiences with the same game. Plot deepens.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> No they can't do that either. See below..
> 
> Yes and such laws are subject to and are superseded by statutory rights of the citizen.


Name one legal case where a court ruled in favor of the citizen over the usage contract in video games.  Contracts are usually only voided if the contract itself was unlawful.  Publishers have armies of lawyers to make sure that doesn't happen.


----------



## robot zombie (Jun 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Name one legal case where a court ruled in favor of the citizen over the usage contract in video games.


I won't. Because I can't. Also, I never said that


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 8, 2019)

Oops, sorry, mushed two posts together and got the wrong author.  Fixed now.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Name one legal case where a court ruled in favor of the citizen over the usage contract in video games.  Contracts are usually only voided if the contract itself was unlawful.  Publishers have armies of lawyers to make sure that doesn't happen.


No, two reasons. First, this subject has been discussed at length and doesn't need rehashing here and Second, we're off topic.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is getting interesting. Two sets of experiences with the same game. Plot deepens.


Yeah, three out of four games I have start, but the biggest one won’t. 

When the Quantic Dreams games are released, they will be the next ones I check. Heavy Rain is later this month.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> So to clarify, you're starting the game directly, without the Epic client and no internet connection? If this is true, Epic has changed how they're doing things and a revisit is in order. Also can anyone else verify this? And is this just with Metro Exodus or is it with all/most of the games in the Epic store?



Its publisher specific. EGS is just serving the games and the fact EGS itself needs that active connection, I think is easy to chalk up to its rather unfinished state. The fact some stuff works and others don't is writing on the wall. And the fact that the exe does work on its own for some games is another - there is no DRM linked to EGS that is applied on all content.

Put differently, the _intent_ is not to enforce DRM through the EGS portal like Steam does. At least not at this time. And whether the store is GOG, EGS, Steam or Origin, the same copyright laws apply and the same customer protection applies. *The only difference with GOG is that the means to enforce those laws directly has been omitted. *So when you speak of 'ownership' in that sense, what you're really saying is you like to use your own interpretation of the law. When push comes to shove, all these stores are 100% the same. The difference here lies with the user and the degree of trust it has in the laws and regulations that are in place  Note: we don't disagree about the nasty truth of that ownership at all, I like my stuff DRM free as well.

As for the rest... when I see you multi quoting a dozen things, I just scroll right over it. FYI  Bottom line is you were blatantly wrong on all counts and all those quotes didn't change anything about that. Keep it simple, bud.



lexluthermiester said:


> No, two reasons. First, this subject has been discussed at length and doesn't need rehashing here and Second, we're off topic.



Hahaha nice one, first YOU drag this offtopic with misinterpreted 'facts' and when it gets too hot you drop the offtopic bomb in defense 

I'm done now. Sorry for this but I'm allergic to bullshit.



lexluthermiester said:


> Ok, show us.



Last, about those terms of use. You remember Wolfenstein 3D shareware, right?









						How to File a Software Patent
					

Filing for patent protection is a complex endeavor. Follow these simple steps to ensure you don't waste time and money.




					info.legalzoom.com
				




Copyright laws apply irrespective of the medium they are on, and Terms of Use (which are connected to the 'Licence') include copyright law, they always have. Maybe you refer to the clickable 'Accept' button, but that came later, the legalese has always been there.

And look, even GitHub still agrees.









						GitHub - id-Software/wolf3d: The original open source release of Wolfenstein 3D
					

The original open source release of Wolfenstein 3D - GitHub - id-Software/wolf3d: The original open source release of Wolfenstein 3D




					github.com


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 8, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Yeah, three out of four games I have start, but the biggest one won’t.
> 
> When the Quantic Dreams games are released, they will be the next ones I check. Heavy Rain is later this month.


Too bad that I'm not buying, I was pleased to see that they're coming to PC, until I saw that they're coming for that crapform.

I rather play those with a console (I have Heavy Rain already on PS3) than install that Epic crap on my PC. If a game is not on Steam, Origin or Uplay, I'll skip it. No problems waiting that Metro comes again to Steam.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> than install that Epic crap on my PC.


Do please define “Epic crap”.  I mean descriptives are fine, if you’re looking to get noticed. They don’t, however actually define what the issue is.  No, not web talking points. What makes it a “no use” for YOU?

I really had to laugh tho, that you rated Origin so highly.  I use it too, but it’s total crap (to take a page from your book). 

I do find it funny that people are so loyal to game stores who don’t even know you exist.


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 8, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Do please define “Epic crap”.  I mean descriptives are fine, if you’re looking to get noticed. They don’t, however actually define what the issue is.  No, not web talking points. What makes it a “no use” for YOU?
> 
> I really had to laugh tho, that you rated Origin so highly.  I use it too, but it’s total crap (to take a page from your book).
> 
> I do find it funny that people are so loyal to game stores who don’t even know you exist.


I don't want to install a dozen launchers, which some of would be a launcher just for few games. I'll just leave it here.







I don't know have they improved anything, but it seems that the whole Epic crap is more like that they need to have their own thing, but that's more like an early alpha version of something we've had for years already. As for Origin, they sucked years ago, but I haven't see anything to complain anymore in last few years. Back then I just had to have it because of Battlefield, but these days I don't mind it at all.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> don't want to install a dozen launchers, which some of would be a launcher just for few games


Because going from your 3 to another is a dozen.   But ok. However, your logic is faulty, since Origin was an install for one game you said.

I envy your apparent youth. Us older folks realize that we don’t have forever and that waiting for whenever means we may not get to play a game that’s extraordinary.

Here’s the updates.  Many things have been implemented since February, and cloud saves arrive in July.  As you say, Origin also didn’t start out very well equipped.






						Trello
					

Organize anything, together. Trello is a collaboration tool that organizes your projects into boards. In one glance, know what's being worked on, who's working on what, and where something is in a process.




					trello.com
				




If you don't want to actually open up to scroll to see all the items, here's a screenshot that gives you most of it.


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 8, 2019)

You're missing my point again. Yeah, I and many others had to install Origin back then if we want to play Battlefield, that's correct.

My point is, why the hell they need to release yet ANOTHER launcher? That kids'/poor man's version of PUBG of theirs was a wise move, since they got lots of users for their own platform.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> My point is, why the hell they need to release yet ANOTHER launcher?


Because ANOTHER company wanted to open a game store, which is their right.  There is no controlling authority limiting businesses in each category to "X" number.  Do you not remember these same complaints when Origin opened?  It's a free market.  We don't get to decide that there can only be so many of a certain seller.  Do you have an arbitrary number for the number of gas stations, or department stores, grocery stores or restaurants?  They all also sell the same types of products that others like them sell.


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 8, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Because ANOTHER company wanted to open a game store.  Do you not remember these same complaints when Origin opened?  It's a free market.  We don't get to decide that there can only be so many of a certain seller.  Do you have an arbitrary number for the number of gas stations, or department stores, grocery stores or restaurants?  They all also sell the same types of products that others like them sell.


Yeah, and they made the same mistakes what EA did with Origin years ago... except they've should already learned that it's goddamn 2019, and they release their platform in a state which is like in an early alpha.

But I ain't gonna continue this, we know that opinions are like buttholes, everyone has their own. I ain't gonna use that, and that's it for me.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 8, 2019)

I agree with both of you, shit this is complex eh.

I'm all for multiple markets, the end of exclusives on pc and many ways to buy and play, I didn't buy an Apple device, because I'm not into walled gardens.

Choose with your wallet and it will shake out in the end, consensus rules.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I ain't gonna use that, and that's it for me.


Then that's what should be said, not complaining that it's violating some mystical number of stores allowed.

And, FYI, Origin "apparently" didn't learn either.  They watched Steam start out barebones and only improve over the years.  Point is, if it is SO easy to put out a full-on game store from the get-go, without missing out on marketshare, there would be a lot more stores.  But it's not easy, and does take time.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> I agree with both of you, shit this is complex eh.
> 
> I'm all for multiple markets, the end of exclusives on pc and many ways to buy and play, I didn't buy an Apple device, because I'm not into walled gardens.
> 
> Choose with your wallet and it will shake out in the end, consensus rules.


Totally agree.  Let the market decide.  I also like more stores, but if the market decides that EGS fails, so be it. I won't shed any tears.  I remember Steam didn't seem like it would succeed either.

Am I a fan of exclusives?  Nope, but every store has them, and if I want to play certain games, I play them.  Me denying myself enjoyment doesn't do anything except deny myself enjoyment.  A masochist I am not.  Life is short.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 8, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I don't want to install a dozen launchers, which some of would be a launcher just for few games. I'll just leave it here.
> 
> I don't know have they improved anything, but it seems that the whole Epic crap is more like that they need to have their own thing, but that's more like an early alpha version of something we've had for years already. As for Origin, they sucked years ago, but I haven't see anything to complain anymore in last few years. Back then I just had to have it because of Battlefield, but these days I don't mind it at all.



I totally respect your decision but I am curious.  How many of those features do you actually use?  Most of them I see are a big wut?  User profiles? Forums (Steam forums are crap in my opinion)?  Screenshot?  Comes with your GPU or the print screen button.

Cloud saves would be kinda cool but I do that myself anyway with my own personal backup system.


----------



## Flogger23m (Jun 8, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> This is so absolutely, thoroughly and completely false.  The game can be completely and successfully played and enjoyed without buying a damned thing.  I’ve put in over 275 hours on the game, so actually speak from experience.



I finished playing it a few days back. I  put around 80 hours into it. Game absolutely is grind based and you have to artificially spend time gathering resources, playing literal delivering & fetch quests and spends hours doing junk content to be able to afford to keep upgrading. If you don't the game will become impossibly difficult. It  certainly has ushered in a new era of pay to win for SP games.


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I totally respect your decision but I am curious.  How many of those features do you actually use?  Most of them I see are a big wut?  User profiles? Forums (Steam forums are crap in my opinion)?  Screenshot?  Comes with your GPU or the print screen button.
> 
> Cloud saves would be kinda cool but I do that myself anyway with my own personal backup system.


Cloud saves, check
User profiles, check
User reviews, check
Forums, check (usually for walkthroughs etc, not as a forum like TPU forums)
Mods, nah, I usually play my games as vanilla
Friends, check
Groups, check
Trading, check
Sorting, check
Account sharing, check (for few friends)
Streaming to other devices, nope
Streaming, nope (in fact not even via OBS atm, taking a break)
Screenshots, check
Guides, sometimes
Wish lists, check

And that's a honest list. Also I just find that easier to smash the hell out of that F12 button instead of using a hotkey of Afterburner for screenshots etc.... usually I also upload some of the best pics to my profile.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 8, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> I finished playing it a few days back. I  put around 80 hours into it. Game absolutely is grind based and you have to artificially spend time gathering resources, playing literal delivering & fetch quests and spends hours doing junk content to be able to afford to keep upgrading. If you don't the game will become impossibly difficult. It  certainly has ushered in a new era of pay to win for SP games.


Except everything you described is not “pay to win.” Stop deceiving people.  It’s called interacting with the peoples of Greece as a mercenary who needs money would.  Its role-playing.   I enjoyed the constant sense of wonder and exploration.  Perhaps you are not familiar with the definition of "pay to win?"

Obviously games that take you back in time to historical places are not for you, because they require you to go enjoy and immerse yourself in discovering those locations.

I had only at the 250 hour mark finally explored every inch of Ubisoft’s slightly condensed Ancient Greece.   I enjoy the closest opportunity we will ever get to time-travel.

Instead of wasting money to end up complaining, either learn to enjoy gaming for gaming’s sake, for the immersive escape it is, or find a new hobby which pleases you.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> So when you speak of 'ownership' in that sense, what you're really saying is you like to use *case law* interpretation of the law.


Fixed that for you.


Vayra86 said:


> The difference here lies with the user and the degree of trust it has in the laws and regulations that are in place


Good point!


Vayra86 said:


> Note: we don't disagree about the nasty truth of that ownership at all, *I like my stuff DRM free as well.*


You show me someone who likes DRM in their games and I'll show you someone I can sell the Brooklyn Bridge to.



Vayra86 said:


> Hahaha nice one, first YOU drag this offtopic with misinterpreted 'facts' and when it gets too hot you drop the offtopic bomb in defense
> 
> I'm done now. Sorry for this but I'm allergic to bullshit.


Ok, whatever. Everyone has a different opinion. Mine is based on experience in this area of the legal field. I know the facts and my opinion is based on those facts. As a result, notions that contradict those known facts are meaningless and not worth trying to prove wrong because everyone will just nit-pick. If you don't believe me, ok. Get yourself into the legal field and do some homework of your own. And as for the offtopic thing, this topic is related as it is a reason for people wanting to avoid the Epic platform. Sure *WE*(not just me) took it on a slight tangent, but it's still related to the core subject.



Vayra86 said:


> Last, about those terms of use. You remember Wolfenstein 3D shareware, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You misunderstood me, show me where those terms were actually included with a game for people to read and have to agree to? Back then they weren't because doing so cost floppy disc space, a lot of it. That was the point. No one did. I don't remember seeing the first EULA until DOS 5.0(and that was on the manual) and not in a game until the mid-90's.

At the end of the day, more & more people who care about their rights are deciding to simply avoid DRM based platforms. They are voting with their wallets. Those avoiding Epic, like myself, are doing so as a way of protest as well. As suggested above, if DRM is not being used, IE titles will run without the Epic client and without the presence of an internet connection, then I would have no problem with them and would happily spend money with them.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 9, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> I finished playing it a few days back. I  put around 80 hours into it. Game absolutely is grind based and you have to artificially spend time gathering resources, playing literal delivering & fetch quests and spends hours doing junk content to be able to afford to keep upgrading. If you don't the game will become impossibly difficult. It  certainly has ushered in a new era of pay to win for SP games.



Are you sure we played the same game? I didn't have to grind.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 9, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Are you sure we played the same game? I didn't have to grind.


Exactly. Materials, weapons, and armor are actually more than plentiful. I never wanted for materials for upgrades.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 9, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Exactly. Materials, weapons, and armor are actually more than plentiful. I never wanted for materials for upgrades.



I rarely crafted anything other than ball bearings and medkits.


----------



## phanbuey (Jun 9, 2019)

Im playing it now on the hardest difficulty, it doesnt feel like a grind at all - mostly a deus ex exploration style game with some scripted fights thrown in the mix.

Pretty good.


----------



## Flogger23m (Jun 10, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Except everything you described is not “pay to win.” Stop deceiving people.  It’s called interacting with the peoples of Greece as a mercenary who needs money would.  Its role-playing.   I enjoyed the constant sense of wonder and exploration.  Perhaps you are not familiar with the definition of "pay to win?"
> 
> Obviously games that take you back in time to historical places are not for you, because they require you to go enjoy and immerse yourself in discovering those locations.
> 
> ...



It certainly is pay to win. When you can't play a game normally without having to pay for additional content or features it crosses into pay to win territory. 

They design quests around this feature. Any quest with an hour glass is designed to get you quick resources. They take around 5-8 minutes, boring as hell and typically result in you entering a conversation and running from point A to B to turn it in. Utterly worthless and they are designed because of how abnormally difficult it is to maintain your gear.

Even other side quests are similar. The last one I finished was designed around getting more soft leather. You enter a conversation, run 60 meters, run back, grab an item, run back, then run another 70 meters to carry a body from a river. You are then lead to a bear which attacks you giving you a reward - soft leather. A low effort, pointless quest designed for a few things:

- To add to the grind
- Another repetitive, boring quest that people must do to get resources
- Another copy/paste quest designed to break people into forking over money to get the booster

With the booster you can level up quicker, allowing you to access more abilities earlier in the game. The ability design tends to be lazy, such as doing 15% more Assassin damage with each upgrade. The quicker you get this the less time you need to allocate doing resource grind quests like the above. You can make up for not having fully levelled gear by getting more damage via abilities earlier on.

If you're happy with this congratulations, pay to win gameplay is officially accepted in AAA single player games.

The rest of your post is just you defending the most shameful business practice in the video game industry. So if you are against obvious pay to win game design you can't like historical games? What? The game is also very liberal with its interpretation of history as well. The best fighters and most of the leaders are female, which just wasn't the case in the ancient world. The whole reason women used to be oppressed is because men were physically stronger and would literally beat them if they didn't relinquish power and rights in favor of males. Odyssey throws that out the window and opts for a fairy tale version of ancient Greece. If you look back at Black Flag as an example, there were female pirates who were historical characters. But they had to pretend they were male and this was portrayed in the game. It added so much to their character and to the time period and gave us a look into how life was back then (rights lopsided towards males). Odyssey was half assed it, and that is not even talking about the obvious pay to win scheme.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 10, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> They design quests around this feature. Any quest with an hour glass is designed to get you quick resources. They take around 5-8 minutes, boring as hell and typically result in you entering a conversation and running from point A to B to turn it in. Utterly worthless and they are designed because of how abnormally difficult it is to maintain your gear.
> 
> Even other side quests are similar. The last one I finished was designed around getting more soft leather. You enter a conversation, run 60 meters, run back, grab an item, run back, then run another 70 meters to carry a body from a river. You are then lead to a bear which attacks you giving you a reward - soft leather. A low effort, pointless quest designed for a few things:
> 
> ...



I have no idea how many hours you have in it but I about 30 hours in AC:O and I don't even do the resource quests.  My weapons and armor are consistently 2 lower than my level and I routinely beat mercenaries and other enemies a few levels higher.

Pay to win means you simply aren't going to win without it.  AC:O has no necessity to pay to win as you can easily win without it.  Do I like having all the mtx crap in it?  Nope.  Is it a deal breaker because it is there? Nope.  I just don't buy it.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 10, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Pay to win means you simply aren't going to win without it. AC:O has no necessity to pay to win as you can easily win without it.


Thank you.  

@Flogger23m it is painfully obvious you do not understand “pay to win”.  AC:O, which is not the subject of this thread, although you have tried to make it one, requires not one cent to be paid. I have done just fine and enjoyed the hell out of it. Indeed, 275 hours in and no extra payments kind of proves you are barking up the wrong tree.

That’s why I have defended it, because it is NOT pay to win. It is PLAY to win, which apparently you are not too good at or you’d not be complaining.

As to the historical weaknesses, I never said I thought it was showing history well. For me the sense of wonder is seeing all the historical LOCATIONS, many of which played a part in mythology as well.  I really don’t care if the rest of it is true to history, because it is a GAME, meant for enjoyment and escape.

As to women in Ancient Greece, the exception were the Spartan women.








						Spartan Women
					

Spartan women had more rights and enjoyed greater autonomy than women in any other Greek city-state of the Classical Period (5th-4th centuries BCE). Women could inherit property, own land, make business...




					www.ancient.eu
				









						Women in ancient Sparta - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## AsRock (Jun 10, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> What is this obsession with achievements?  This is a general question, not directly aimed at the OP.  If they happen, great, but honestly, I’m there to play the game and enjoy the story.
> 
> I notice the difference the most when I play games from GOG where I have none.  I don’t need affirmation of my involvement in the storyline, I just interacted with and was deeply embedded in it.  I know when I complete the game, and When I do cool stuff.
> 
> What does an achievement get me?  Honestly, nothing.  They might possibly be useful on Uplay, where achievements can allow points to buy some cosmetic additions to the games.  Otherwise they seem to merely be a fluff, without which my self esteem and game enjoyment survive just fine.



Ego ? or maybe very forgetful .  Personally find the shit annoying as hell as half the time the hit pops up at the worse time.

Only good thing i can say i noticed to any good is some games give away stuff you would of liked of gone.  JC2 comes to mind handing some one from a  hanging traffic lights.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 11, 2019)

AC Odyssey is one of the best games out there imho. I've played it 226 hours and it's never been a grind. Most everything you can buy with helix credits is cosmetic anyhow. If Pegasus could fly i'd be buying it, i'd say that much.

As far as game achievements go...if my eyes turn yellow because i will not stop playing the game to go pee that's the achievement i'm looking for.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 11, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> The whole reason women used to be oppressed is because men were physically stronger and would literally beat them if they didn't relinquish power and rights in favor of males. Odyssey throws that out the window and opts for a fairy tale version of ancient Greece.


Assassin's Creed: Origins had boys and girls attending school even though they knew that was false and admitted to it.  I don't know if Assassin's Creed: Odyssey has a "Discovery Tour" feature like Origins but if you want a dose of history, that's where you'll find it.  There's a lot of creative interpretations in both games and "Discovery Tour" points those out and explains motivations behind why they did what they did.

In the case of girls attending school, they didn't want girls playing the game to feel excluded.  I think it's a stupid argument.  I think they should have made everything as period correct as possible but, I'm not Ubisoft.  To be fair, I never even noticed any kids attending school in the first place while playing the game.  I only knew this because Discovery Tour pointed it out.

I should also add that Discovery Tour really isn't a good format for learning things.  Information flies at you so fast and so haphazardly that you can't really process any of it to remember/learn it.  Wouldn't surprise me if they cut it from Odyssey because of that alone.  They would have to put more effort into it...like make you actually play out a day in their life or add hour+ long documentaries built into the game.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 11, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> if you want a dose of history



Just to be clear, this is not directed at you.  Just a general 'you'.  If you want a dose of history then go to the museum.  If you want to be entertained then play a game.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 11, 2019)

Discovery Tour for Origins actually said most of the Egyptian relics ended up in the UK.  If you're looking for that kind of stuff, you'll need to go to UK museums (think mostly in London).


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 11, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Discovery Tour for Origins actually said most of the Egyptian relics ended up in the UK.  If you're looking for that kind of stuff, you'll need to go to UK museums (think mostly in London).


Yep. The British Museum has a great many.  Their collection of human history in general is phenomenal!


----------



## Flogger23m (Jun 11, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Thank you.
> 
> @Flogger23m it is painfully obvious you do not understand “pay to win”.  AC:O, which is not the subject of this thread, although you have tried to make it one, requires not one cent to be paid. I have done just fine and enjoyed the hell out of it. Indeed, 275 hours in and no extra payments kind of proves you are barking up the wrong tree.
> 
> That’s why I have defended it, because it is NOT pay to win. It is PLAY to win, which apparently you are not too good at or you’d not be complaining.



You seem to be confusing pay to win with free to play. *A game can be retail but still pay to win, which just adds more insult to injury*. AC Odyssey doesn't even attempt to mask it with the atrocious grind and *quests designed purely for the grinding*. I've listed many examples and can even load the game up and grab a screen shot of the dozens of grind quests still active if your memory is fuzzy. You seem to completely ignore the obvious evidence though.

Cost isn't the defining feature of pay to win, but rather _having to pay extra to play the game as it is meant to be played_. With Odyssey this cannot be done without playing repeating grind quests for resources or using the *paid booster*. How some people can defend paid boosters in full price, AAA games is dumbfounding.









						Assassin’s Creed Odyssey’s best feature costs an extra 10 bucks
					

Permanent XP Boost makes Assassin’s Creed Odyssey a better game




					www.polygon.com
				









This isn't a conspiracy, it is literally a conscious design and business model.

Some good quotes to offer another perspective:



			
				Polygon said:
			
		

> Say your character is level 8 and the enemy is level 11. You can barely scratch them; your dagger lands with the impact of a soggy toothpick.
> 
> Permanent XP Boost changes that. Not only does your level rise faster, you also unlock dramatically more powerful assassination moves earlier in the campaign. Which is to say, using the $10 option makes Alexios or Kassandra more likely to be the same level as their target, _and_ gives your character stronger moves to deal a lethal blow rather than a torpid poke. You’re paying for Ubisoft to make you feel like the hero you should be in this sort of game.
> 
> ...



Spend two hours of doing semi fun quests and now you've hit a wall - you extremely under powered. You now have to spend another two hours killing animals, doing lazy fetch quests which literally make you run somewhere to enter a conversation to get an instant reward.

Is your idea of running up to 30 helpless deer and cutting them down with the press of a button your idea of skill? Or having to accept quests that start with a conversation, making you run 300 meters, and then enter another conversation to get resources the pinnacle of thoughtful game design to you? It is sheer lazy game design, intended to get people frustrated that they cannot play the game properly without doing the same few junk activities dozens of times just to continue playing the real quests.

Enter the paid booster. You now level up quicker and can unlock more abilities quicker, which increase Hunter, Warrior or Assassin damage by ~15-20% each. Now you can spend more time playing the game and less time fast traveling to find boars and deer to butcher. You'll won't need to play as many "run here, talk to this guy, quest end" quests. These are artificial restraints on the game designed to push people into paying to play the game properly. This qualifies as pay to win.

Anything that charges real money because you are at a disadvantage without it is pay to win. And AC Odyssey absolutely fits that profile.



rtwjunkie said:


> As to women in Ancient Greece, the exception were the Spartan women.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even that is excessively restrictive. It is ancient history, but even that is more restrictive that I had thought. I assume in practice it wasn't fully enforced everywhere all the time though. But again that proves my point. The women in AC Odyssey are given fairy tale like roles and appearances which hurts the game.

Which isn't very relevant though. I merely brought it up because you're deflecting the obvious pay to win design features of Odyssey. First you claim that people who don't like pay to win games just don't like historical games, which was bullshit seeing how AC Odyssey is very liberal with its interpretation of history. Much more so than previous entries. Second, you defend pay to win mechanics by claiming people who don't accept these business practices don't have the "skill" to fast travel and slaughter random deer or enter conversations that result in you running ~300 meters to get resources. 

Any other random insults to throw while you defend pay to win in AAA retail games?


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 12, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Spend two hours of doing semi fun quests and now you've hit a wall - you extremely under powered. You now have to spend another two hours killing animals, doing lazy fetch quests which literally make you run somewhere to enter a conversation to get an instant reward.



Are you sure we are playing the same game?  I don't even do those quests and I can easily kill people a few levels above me.  1 on 1 (maybe even 2 on 1) I can easily get 4 to 5 levels above me.  Fighting a few people (more than 2) at a time is more difficult (as it should be) but I can still do it.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 12, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> First you claim that people who don't like pay to win games just don't like historical games,


Nope. Time to brush up on your reading comprehension. What I said is apparently YOU have trouble with the concept of playing a mercenary who needs to take jobs to make money.



Flogger23m said:


> Anything that charges real money because you are at a disadvantage without it is pay to win. And AC Odyssey absolutely fits that profile.


They didn’t charge ME any money to spend 275 hours of playing the game and getting whatever upgrades I needed.



Flogger23m said:


> Second, you defend pay to win mechanics by claiming people who don't accept these business practices don't have the "skill" to fast travel and slaughter random deer or enter conversations that result in you running ~300 meters to get resources


Why are you fast travelling, and why do you focus on slaughtering deer? That sounds like you obviously just don’t like the game, which is fine, and this whole “pay to win” you keep moaning about is just a smokescreen.  Never once did I defend pay to win. My record on that subject in these forums is clear. Too bad you don’t pay attention.  I did defend a fun game I ROLE-PLAYED as a mercenary and earned every resource, drachma or upgrade my character has.  Again, no maoney paid. I merely won by PLAYING, and I’m certainly not the most skilled gamer around.


Flogger23m said:


> Any other random insults to throw while you defend pay to win in AAA retail games?


Again, and let’s hope this sinks in: I am against pay to win.  This is why your assertion that AC:O is pay to win was so laughable.  Many people, including myself have sunk hundreds of hours into advancing in the game without paying a dime, nor did I ever felt I needed to.  This Play to Win.

Now, do yourself a favor and drop the thread or participate on the subject of Metro: Exodus.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Now, do yourself a favor and drop the thread or participate on the subject of Metro: Exodus.


I was also wondering what connection that comment had to this thread. Does Metro Exodus have any micro-transaction nonsense I missed??


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I was also wondering what connection that comment had to this thread. Does Metro Exodus have any micro-transaction nonsense I missed??


I played it twice and didnt see anything.  For some reason though it triggered him to start in on AC:O being pay to win.  Maybe @robot zombie can confirm in Metro, since he has played it 4 or 5 times.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I played it twice and didnt see anything.  For some reason though it triggered him to start in on AC:O being pay to win.  Maybe @robot zombie can confirm in Metro, since he has played it 4 or 5 times.



I don't know about robot zombie but i didn't notice any extras you could buy. If it is Pay to Win and i won without paying what a great achievement that was.


----------



## robot zombie (Jun 12, 2019)

As far as I know, it doesn't. That aside, it's not really a grind-oriented game. Sure you can find all sorts of weapons and such, but the first two you get are all you actually need. Most of the upgrades you can get are completely optional - you can finish the game without them and it's not unreasonably harder. The enemies never get stronger. If you're good, you can pretty easily wind up with a surplus of materials, even on the higher difficulties, without ever going off of the beaten path. I've never gone hunting for materials. Things aren't set up in such a way where you have to get this before you go there and do that. Resource management is a key gameplay feature, but no part of the game is so unforgiving there that you're bound to break down and grind. You can pretty much go anywhere you want and succeed with whatever you have, whenever you want. Or you can skip all of the exploration/side-stuff and follow the storyline. Everything you really, really need is made available just playing through the main parts in the game. And even when you do get other weapons, they don't really give you an edge-up per se... just different ways of doing things. It's all strategy and skill with Metro. Even with the best shit in the game, you can't easily win unless you really try.

Also worth mentioning... it is mandatory to take basically the best weapon in the game right at the start of the last big arc.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I was also wondering what connection that comment had to this thread. Does Metro Exodus have any micro-transaction nonsense I missed??


I just thought again in answer to your question. EGS just implemented DLC purchasing, so there wasn’t any opportunity to buy anything.  And as robot zombie said, there is very little grind, so no reason to pay to win even if it was present.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I just thought again in answer to your question. EGS just implemented DLC purchasing, so there wasn’t any opportunity to buy anything.  And as robot zombie said, there is very little grind, so no reason to pay to win even if it was present.


Ok, so Flogger's comment was off-topic then. For a sec I thought I was going crazy... LOL!

So back on topic; The same place that rumored ME was heading to the Windows Store is now rumbling of a GOG release soon as GOG has always been good to the devs of the Metro series. I'm hoping this is true.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ok, so Flogger's comment was off-topic then. For a sec I thought I was going crazy... LOL!
> 
> So back on topic; The same place that rumored ME was heading to the Windows Store is now rumbling of a GOG release soon as GOG has always been good to the devs of the Metro series. I'm hoping this is true.


While I hope it's true, it was IIRC, a year after Metro LL Redux, that both Reduxes finally made it to GOG, and the originals are still MIA.  That portends a long wait, yet.  Plus, how does DS get around the one year exclusive they signed?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> While I hope it's true, it was IIRC, a year after Metro LL Redux, that both Reduxes finally made it to GOG, and the originals are still MIA. That portends a long wait, yet.


That's a fair point. I have no problem waiting a year.


rtwjunkie said:


> Plus, how does DS get around the one year exclusive they signed?


How'd they get around it with Microsoft?


----------



## Joeyb11223 (Jun 12, 2019)

Different query but I thought I'd save making a whole thread. With Metro Exodus on Epic Games store, is there a way to see your playtime somewhere within the games files, since it doesn't appear to be visible in their store as it is on steam? Reason I ask is I purchased metro recently (less than 14 days) and I get awful framerate drops, really frustrating, so tried to request a refund but they said my ownership and playtime (their 2 hr limit), meant it was ineligible. However I'm suspicious of this, as I really didn't play for very long before giving up, just up to the part where you obtain the train. Maybe I left it paused for too long while trying solutions but just curious. I'll be waiting until steam releases in future...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 12, 2019)

Joeyb11223 said:


> Different query but I thought I'd save making a whole thread. With Metro Exodus on Epic Games store, is there a way to see your playtime somewhere within the games files, since it doesn't appear to be visible in their store as it is on steam? Reason I ask is I purchased metro recently (less than 14 days) and I get awful framerate drops, really frustrating, so tried to request a refund but they said my ownership and playtime (their 2 hr limit), meant it was ineligible. However I'm suspicious of this, as I really didn't play for very long before giving up, just up to the part where you obtain the train. Maybe I left it paused for too long while trying solutions but just curious. I'll be waiting until steam releases in future...


Very unlikely. And that two hour time limit starts the moment the download finishes(someone correct me if wrong). Epic's return policy isn't like GOG's 30 day policy. Epic is seemingly very strict! Sorry mate. Perhaps an upgrade to your system might be in order? A GTX1070 is generally considered a solid card at 1080p for this game. Also, you may want to turn your AntiAliasing either down or off as that will greatly improve frame-times and frame-rates.


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 12, 2019)

And Steam lets you play it for up to 119 minutes and you can still have a refund.

Is there a limit when you need to apply for a refund, I guess a 10 year old game doesn't approve?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 12, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> How'd they get around it with Microsoft?


Good point as well!



Joeyb11223 said:


> Different query but I thought I'd save making a whole thread. With Metro Exodus on Epic Games store, is there a way to see your playtime somewhere within the games files, since it doesn't appear to be visible in their store as it is on steam? Reason I ask is I purchased metro recently (less than 14 days) and I get awful framerate drops, really frustrating, so tried to request a refund but they said my ownership and playtime (their 2 hr limit), meant it was ineligible. However I'm suspicious of this, as I really didn't play for very long before giving up, just up to the part where you obtain the train. Maybe I left it paused for too long while trying solutions but just curious. I'll be waiting until steam releases in future...


I think time begins from the first start of a game, including paused time, time in the menu and settings etc. 

If I recall correctly, game time is in the next set of updates, but you are right, it is not currently not in their store.  I have to say though, once you caught the train, it might easily be more than 2 hours.  There is at least that amount of time in Moscow.

So, as lexluthermeister suggested, you might as well make the best of your situation, and make sure your hardware is prepared for it.  It treats people’s systems like 2033 did when it released, although this time it’s not because of bad coding but due to it being very graphically intensive. What is your current system setup?


----------



## Kissamies (Jun 12, 2019)

I'm just curious why rtwjunkie and others defend this piece of crap? 

I'm not gonna argue any more about that, I just wanna know why someone wants to defend this platform when so damn many users like me are saying that it sucks balls..


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 12, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I'm just curious why rtwjunkie and others defend this piece of crap?
> 
> I'm not gonna argue any more about that, I just wanna know why someone wants to defend this platform when so damn many users like me are saying that it sucks balls..


Not arguing, and not defending it.  But I am 52 years old and at that age where you stare mortality in the eye, knowing that I am now in the time frame when people start dropping like flies, especially in my current field.  3 friends my own age in fact have died in the last year and a half, and that is just among close people. Expanded out it is sobering.  I have a wife who has constant battle with blood clots, and may not even make 50 because of that.  Yeah, life is short.

What I am defending, knowing this, is playing what I want to play when I want.  And enjoy what I want because literally, tomorrow is not guarranteed.  As we get older, each day is even less guarranteed, so putting off till next year for principles of a store that is really in the same state any of the other stores was when they started is really stupid for me.  .

I owe none of the other stores any misplaced loyalty,  and for what I use, it does exactly what I need. I play a game to play the game.  I don’t play the game store, no matter where I am, be it GOG or Steam or Origin or Uplay or EGS. There are much more important things for me than getting upset because a game store doesn’t have certain features or is cutting into the territory of another store

What I defend is my right to buy what I want without intolerant people putting me down for spending my own hard earned money where I want.

On top of that, Metro:Exodus was absolutely worth going to an unknown store for. It is hands down one of the best games I have played in my lifetime.

You asked, and I answered, since you singled me out.


----------



## Rahnak (Jun 12, 2019)

My personal opinion on achievements is.. they don't really mean much to me on PC because they generally don't amount to anything (especially on Steam, where I have the majority of my library). On console you get bragging rights (PSN Level or Xbox GamerScore), if you care about that sort of thing, and that usually makes me a little more inclined to get them in order to boost my level.

That said, if I'm playing a game I really like on PC, and it has reasonable achievements, I may try to get them all, as it's sometimes a nice bonus of extra things to do in the game. Of the top of my head, I've gotten all the achievements for Borderlands 1 & 2 and Final Fantasy 12, for example.

So in conclusion, EGS not having achievements doesn't bother me in the slightest. Nor have I ever felt I needed achievements to complete a game.


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## metalfiber (Jun 12, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I am 52 years old



Damn gramps, i didn't know you were that old  ...I think all of this store stuff just boils down to rebellion anyhow. You buy from us or you ain't gett'n it and some of the consumers naturally rebels and i can see that.


----------



## ne6togadno (Jun 12, 2019)

GOG.com
					

Download the best classic and new games on Windows, Mac & Linux. A vast selection of titles, DRM-free, with free goodies and 30-day money-back guarantee.




					www.gog.com


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 12, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I'm just curious why rtwjunkie and others defend this piece of crap?
> 
> I'm not gonna argue any more about that, I just wanna know why someone wants to defend this platform when so damn many users like me are saying that it sucks balls..



Because the game is fucking awesome! I don't care if it is on EGS.  Hell, I'd sign up for Facebook,Twitter and give OJ Simpson my social security number if that is what it took to play this game.



rtwjunkie said:


> constant battle with blood clots



Not constant, but I can relate.


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 12, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> You seem to be confusing pay to win with free to play. *A game can be retail but still pay to win, which just adds more insult to injury*. AC Odyssey doesn't even attempt to mask it with the atrocious grind and *quests designed purely for the grinding*. I've listed many examples and can even load the game up and grab a screen shot of the dozens of grind quests still active if your memory is fuzzy. You seem to completely ignore the obvious evidence though.
> 
> Cost isn't the defining feature of pay to win, but rather _having to pay extra to play the game as it is meant to be played_. With Odyssey this cannot be done without playing repeating grind quests for resources or using the *paid booster*. How some people can defend paid boosters in full price, AAA games is dumbfounding.
> 
> ...


-----------------
WoW ! Off-topic but there are issues to be fixed :

1. You don't know what means "Pay to Win" :
You don't "win" nothing playing a singleplayer game so any additional content is just made to enhance your experience in a game.
"Pay to Win" is a term used for multiplayer games where the cash shop content gives you boosts you can use to kill/win against the other players faster/easier than if you don't use those boosts. Extra content made to take advantages againt the other players in a multiplayer session. Damage boosts, ignore defense bonus, increased armor, things like this. Many korean free-to-play MMORPGs with PvP have those kind of things.

2. You obviously don't know how to play AC Odyssey. If you face ennemies with higher levels, open your map and have a look...you are in a higher level zone and many zones of your level are there for you to explore, complete those "!" marks in the zone you are and in the one you passed.
You don't even have to do the random contracts to level up enough to beat the game. Just the main quest + the subquests from the areas you visit when the main quest lead you there.
You don't need those exp/drachme boosts to beat this game, neither the DLCs, at all. Those boosts are here to help, if you want to finish the game faster. You willl still win nothing beating a singleplayer faster.
-----------------

I feel the pain having no achievement logs for a game. It's not essential but it's a plus.
I guess my ego is rewarded when I get some achievements I can see only 1% or even less of the players managed to get.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 13, 2019)

c2DDragon said:


> You obviously don't know how to play AC Odyssey.



I'm not sure that i know either.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 13, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> I'm just curious why rtwjunkie and others defend this piece of crap?
> 
> I'm not gonna argue any more about that, I just wanna know why someone wants to defend this platform when so damn many users like me are saying that it sucks balls..


What I really noticed is how after you concerned yourself about where I do some of my game-buying business *yet again* and wanted an answer, you were strangely quiet. Is it possibly because you've been shown to all on TPU to be intolerant of others and their personal choices? Is it because everything I answered was based on my own situation and what is and isn't important to me? Take note of that, because we are all individuals and we make our own choices. People are going to do many things in your life that don't conform to your notion of what should be, because the world is not revolving around you.


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## Kissamies (Jun 13, 2019)

That's just an answer like why the milk carton is yellow instead of white.,

Go ahead, give your money to that this crap. I'm not one of you. F*#k.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 13, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> That's just an answer like why the milk carton is yellow instead of white.



I don't follow.  That same statement applies to your assertion that it sucks balls.  What exactly were you shooting for there?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 13, 2019)

Hey, come on, we're all friends here. Let's be cool!


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 13, 2019)

Chloe Price said:


> That's just an answer like why the milk carton is yellow instead of white.,
> 
> Go ahead, give your money to that this crap. I'm not one of you. F*#k.


So once again, only your opinion of what I do matters. Got it, I’ll remember that, despite your seemingly slick attempt to curse me out. I wasn’t aware that how I spend my money hurt you so much.

I will admit I envy your apparent youth. Youth always have such high levels of idealism, which age and life experience usually temper.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jun 14, 2019)

Its lets all be nice time.


----------



## Kursah (Jun 14, 2019)

Let's not forget what folks thought about Steam back in 2007, it was the enemy of gaming back then, digital platform that you can't own physical media? Blasphemy! Privacy infringed. OMG!!! (when in reality privacy hasn't really been a thing in decades...). Or all the follies along the way where Steam stumbled or made unpopular changes. It has come a long ways and had a long time to mature and become the favored platform among gamers. It surely wasn't always this way.

What anyone here has for preferences for may not match someone else's, that is OKAY. I actually applaud Epic for getting into this part of the industry and I really hope they rattle up what Steam has had an almost monopoly over for the past decade while others have come and gone or limped along or even if they were successful, they weren't Valve's Steam successful. If anything, I want to see another big player come in and create more competition. 

At first I didn't want another platform installed, and knee-jerk reactions with my ignorance to their larger goals initially I disliked what Epic was doing. Once I opened my eyes and stood back, I appreciate what I'm seeing. The 1-year contracts I'm still not a big fan of, but I get why they're doing it, and its not like the devs have to choose that for their titles...but they are, and its something that financially benefits them to do so. 

My first-hand experience with Epic has been favorable overall, my kids like it, game deals and sales are decent enough to the point where they run Steam, Epic and Origin without even thinking twice about it. Sure the Epic platform doesn't have all the extra goodies that Steam has, yet. Maybe it never will. But its distinguishing itself differently, and honestly I can't fault it for existing no more than I can fault anyone here for being born. There was an opportunity for someone to do it, and while their method may not make everyone happy, it surely is making waves...and that's part of the game sadly. What I hope to see in the next couple of years is some good deals, improved platforms, and my kids and I having more fun with games regardless of where we get them from. But that may or may not work, time will tell.



Solaris17 said:


> Its lets all be nice time.



+1!


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 14, 2019)

Kursah said:


> Let's not forget what folks thought about Steam back in 2007, it was the enemy of gaming back then, digital platform that you can't own physical media? Blasphemy! Privacy infringed. OMG!!! (when in reality privacy hasn't really been a thing in decades...). Or all the follies along the way where Steam stumbled or made unpopular changes. It has come a long ways and had a long time to mature and become the favored platform among gamers. It surely wasn't always this way.


The major problem with the birth of Steam was and now IS the constant need of cd keys. Remember Half-Life ? You just needed to enter the cd key to play Counter-Strike on a computer but before Steam you could share this cd key or play at a friend's house on his computer. You could just give it to anybody, sell it.
Then Steam forced people to lock the cd keys on an private account, now even singleplayer games got cd keys and we just cannot sell our games anymore.
I don't like to be forced to use something to play a specific game. I like to have the choice.
I don't mind playing Ubisoft games on Uplay, playing Valve games on Steam, EA games on Origin, Diablo on Battle.net.
But being forced to play on a new shop platform, doing shaddy business removing the choice of the consumers hmmm.
Look, I backed Shenmue III ($29) in 2017, it was supposed to be a Steam key for PC (or a PS4 key if you want but I don't own a PS4 so...). I had the choice between Steam and PS4 and did confirm Steam. YS NET announced few days ago that it will be Epic Games Store exclusive...refuse to refund the backers. I do everything I can to get a refund for the sake of it. I don't like those tactics so I guess if I don't get a refund I will just sell the key they would send me. They did let the Steam page... you can view all the backers hate here.

Today I still don't like Steam : selling a lot of old things at pretty high price, pretend to make "sales" but they just lower their margins a little and things stay expensive.
I don't like GOG : The prices are ridiculous.
I do like Origin : The access sub system fits me.
I do like Uplay : The achievements grant you virtual coins, with 100 you get -10% on anything, sometimes there are free games, huge discounts. Right now The Division 2 free week-end so we can test it.
I launched EGS months ago to activate the free things but...well...never even installed them.
The only thing I don't like with the EGS guys is the "1-year exclusive thing because we cannot think on something good to make people use our platform."
I mean, this money thrown to publishers, couldn't they put any games at a lower price than the other platforms instead ? They prefer lock the games and get all the hate from a lot of gamers. I don't understand.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 14, 2019)

Sweeney -> profits from Fortnite -> help reduce risk in distributing a game
Newell -> profits from Steam -> Steam OS, Steam Controller, Steam VR?

I benefit more from Sweeney's investments than Newell's.

Keep in mind that publishers decide price, no one else.


----------



## 64K (Jun 14, 2019)

c2DDragon said:


> Today I still don't like Steam : selling a lot of old things at pretty high price, pretend to make "sales" but they just lower their margins a little and things stay expensive.
> I don't like GOG : The prices are ridiculous.



As has already been said many times, it's the Publishers that set the prices and decide when to put a game on sale and on which site. Steam hosts several sales a year as does GOG and probably ask Publishers if they would like to participate. Quite a few choose to participate because they can get some more money from older games that aren't selling very well anymore.

GOG just had a pretty nice sale. The Steam Summer Sale is coming in 9 days and you will most likely see some good sales but probably not on games that have just been released but that is to be expected. On games that have been out for a few years you will see discounts between 66% off to 85% off on quite a few games.


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## Flogger23m (Jun 14, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Nope. Time to brush up on your reading comprehension.



Was waiting for the next insult.



rtwjunkie said:


> What I said is apparently YOU have trouble with the concept of playing a mercenary who needs to take jobs to make money.



Which has nothing to do with a nick and dime pay to win scheme. I've played probably a dozen games where you are a mercenary. None had artificial gating that required a booster to play as intended.



rtwjunkie said:


> They didn’t charge ME any money to spend 275 hours of playing the game and getting whatever upgrades I needed.



The problem here is you spend ~150 hours playing and ~125 doing garbage, repeating content to continue to play. Or, fork over some cash.



rtwjunkie said:


> Why are you fast travelling, and why do you focus on slaughtering deer?



Can not you read? You need to do this to level your gear up. You cannot progress the story without artificially doing these garbage activities. How more obvious does it need to be?



rtwjunkie said:


> That sounds like you obviously just don’t like the game, which is fine, and this whole “pay to win” you keep moaning about is just a smokescreen.



It is a smokescreen, yet litteraly exists in the game. The entire progression system is based around it. But okay, pretend it doesn't exist if it makes you feel better.



rtwjunkie said:


> Never once did I defend pay to win. My record on that subject in these forums is clear. Too bad you don’t pay attention.



Then you're being a bit contradictory aren't you? If you like the game enough you ignore the sleazy pay to win aspects and pretend they don't exist.



rtwjunkie said:


> I merely won by PLAYING, and I’m certainly not the most skilled gamer around.



You can win any pay to win game without paying extra money. But gameplay is artificially stifled, typically in terms of leveling or getting gear without grinding and doing repeating tasks for hours unless you pay for a booster that quickens the process. Which is what Odyssey has.



rtwjunkie said:


> Again, and let’s hope this sinks in: I am against pay to win.  This is why your assertion that AC:O is pay to win was so laughable.



"I am against pay to win. Ignore these paid boosters in the main menu, the obvious level and gear system designed around it because I said so. "

Now what sounds laughable?



rtwjunkie said:


> Many people, including myself have sunk hundreds of hours into advancing in the game without paying a dime, nor did I ever felt I needed to.  This Play to Win.



As have I, but I am not oblivious to game design based around paid boosters.

It isn't as if I'm the only one to realize what Ubisoft has done. Here is a funny video by Honest Trailers. Even from 3:00 to 3:40 they note the poor leveling system designed around microtransactions:












c2DDragon said:


> You don't "win" nothing playing a singleplayer game so any additional content is just made to enhance your experience in a game.



You don't "win nothing" playing an MP game either. You're making no sense.



c2DDragon said:


> "Pay to Win" is a term used for multiplayer games where the cash shop content gives you boosts you can use to kill/win against the other players faster/easier than if you don't use those boosts.



Used for MP games because that is where they originated. We're seem them cross into SP game right now. What you described right here is the problem with Odyssey.






c2DDragon said:


> 2. You obviously don't know how to play AC Odyssey. If you face ennemies with higher levels, open your map and have a look...you are in a higher level zone and many zones of your level are there for you to explore, complete those "!" marks in the zone you are and in the one you passed.



After completing the game and all but a few fetch quests I am pretty sure I know how to play it. I don't think you even realize what you're writing and I doubt you've even progressed far into the game.

*You can't simply play story quests and side quests to keep parity. *There are simply not enough quests, money or resources dished out to do this. You will absolutely need to go back to animal slaughtered or the delivery quests (hour glass marker) to get resources to get your gear up. Have you even finished the game?




c2DDragon said:


> You don't even have to do the random contracts to level up enough to beat the game. Just the main quest + the subquests from the areas you visit when the main quest lead you there.



Wrong. If you do that your gear will be under leveled. This means it will take 15-20 hits to take down an enemy but they can knock you out in 4-5 hits. It means you cannot assassinate someone silently. This rolls back into other grindy loops designed to take longer and make it more of a pain. If you cannot quickly assassinate someone you will get caught for having an open fight, which means bounty hunters. Which means running to the same repeating locations to kill the random NPC who put a bounty on you or paying it off. Neither of which are practical. Which means grinding more for soft leather to get your gear to an acceptable level.

If you for 2 hours of quests, expect another 1-2 hours of grinding to keep your gear upgraded. Or pay up for the booster.

A level 50 character with level 48 gear is absolutely worthless, and there are multiple discouraging feedback loops which put you into a grind. Grind before quests for resources or go in without grinding, get a bounty, and then grind enough to pay it off or run to another NPC (or three) to kill them. To idea is to add multiple points where people will break down and just pay for the stupid boosters. That way they can level up quicker and start getting the +15% Assassin, Hunter or Warrior skills so gear grinding isn't as necessary.



rtwjunkie said:


> On top of that, Metro:Exodus was absolutely worth going to an unknown store for. It is hands down one of the best games I have played in my lifetime.



I'm not sure if I'd say that, but easily one of the better games over the past few years. In the age of games designed with no theme or setting it was a good reminder of what games can be.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 14, 2019)

@Kursah
Before I start, your comments have been playing on my mind and I wanted to respond constructively, therefore, no offense or disrespect is intended.


Kursah said:


> Let's not forget what folks thought about Steam back in 2007, it was the enemy of gaming back then, digital platform that you can't own physical media? Blasphemy!


Oh hell, some of us still feel that way! I would gladly go back to physical media, even if I had to pay more for games.


Kursah said:


> Privacy infringed. OMG!!! (when in reality privacy hasn't really been a thing in decades...).


Hold on just a minute there partner, privacy is something *you can control*, in spite of all the efforts to make it an illusion. You can fight and win that fight. For example, if you knew my address and looked it up on any "map" site, you'd find my entire property blurred out. Privacy can be enforced, you just have know your rights, be willing to enforce them and be willing to make the effort.


Kursah said:


> What anyone here has for preferences for may not match someone else's, that is OKAY.


True, and I personally agree. Different strokes, different folks..


Kursah said:


> I actually applaud Epic for getting into this part of the industry and I really hope they rattle up what Steam has had an almost monopoly over for the past decade while others have come and gone or limped along or even if they were successful, they weren't Valve's Steam successful.


Also agree here. However, Epic needs to do it a better way. Doing the same thing Steam has with less to offer at marginally lower prices is not a great business plan and certainly not one that will result in long term success. IMHO, GOG is currently Steam's only real competitor.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 14, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> A level 50 character with level 48



You sir are not playing the same game.  Gear and level are practically meaningless.


----------



## Kursah (Jun 14, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh hell, some of us still feel that way! I would gladly go back to physical media, even if I had to pay more for games.



I miss it too, but only to a point now of the "good ol' days". I've come to prefer digital distribution anymore, physical copies mean less to me than they probably should. I have way more shelf space for other junk my wife hates! 



> Hold on just a minute there partner, privacy is something *you can control*, in spite of all the efforts to make it an illusion. You can fight and win that fight. For example, if you knew my address and looked it up on any "map" site, you'd find my entire property blurred out. Privacy can be enforced, you just have know your rights, be willing to enforce them and be willing to make the effort.



We may have differing perspectives on privacy and what it encompasses and what about it is actually controllable. Sure you can control sizeable parts of it with what you've suggested, some best practice, and some low footprint and common sense...but some of it we never really had a chance to control because it was given away for the sake of convenience. That's just my take on it though, it sounds like you have a perspective I'd like to hear more from. Even someone living "off the grid" is a blip on someone's radar, like it or not. 

The scope of how you're data has been mined, sold, disseminated, inspected, stored and studied for decades makes that blurred property on your map more of a reassurance at a local level rather than actual privacy at a global level. I could be wrong (likely  ), but privacy is a different discussion for a different day. Maybe we could start up a new topic on it, which I'd love because it sounds like you're pretty passionate about it and I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on it. Last time I got involved in that kind topic, some folks couldn't handle it or behave and it got shut down.

That or we can discuss it in PM! Whatever works for you man! 



> Also agree here. However, Epic needs to do it a better way. Doing the same thing Steam has with less to offer at marginally lower prices is not a great business plan and certainly not one that will result in long term success. IMHO, GOG is currently Steam's only real competitor.



I agree andI prefer Steam and GOG over all others at this point. I don't use GOG Galaxy much if ever, but love their sales and getting classic games for dirt cheap. But I am looking forward to seeing how Epic evolves. They've been competitive since they hit the gaming market, I remember playing Unreal for the first time and being blown away...one frame at a time because my PC couldn't handle more than a slideshow lol. But they've also been around for quite some time, so I full well expect if they want to stay in competition with Steam, they'll do just that. 

I appreciate your response lex!


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 15, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> You don't "win nothing" playing an MP game either. You're making no sense.


In MP games you can win ranks, sponsors, friends, anything you don't in SP games.



Flogger23m said:


> Used for MP games because that is where they originated. We're seem them cross into SP game right now. What you described right here is the problem with Odyssey.


P2W is for MP only.



Flogger23m said:


> After completing the game and all but a few fetch quests I am pretty sure I know how to play it. I don't think you even realize what you're writing and I doubt you've even progressed far into the game.


And you are wrong again...







Flogger23m said:


> *You can't simply play story quests and side quests to keep parity. *There are simply not enough quests, money or resources dished out to do this. You will absolutely need to go back to animal slaughtered or the delivery quests (hour glass marker) to get resources to get your gear up. Have you even finished the game?


There is absolutly no need to do random quests in this game.
Neither doing animal rampage 



Flogger23m said:


> Wrong. If you do that your gear will be under leveled. This means it will take 15-20 hits to take down an enemy but they can knock you out in 4-5 hits. It means you cannot assassinate someone silently. This rolls back into other grindy loops designed to take longer and make it more of a pain. If you cannot quickly assassinate someone you will get caught for having an open fight, which means bounty hunters. Which means running to the same repeating locations to kill the random NPC who put a bounty on you or paying it off. Neither of which are practical. Which means grinding more for soft leather to get your gear to an acceptable level.


If you fail to assassinate, engrave bonus to your armor pieces...you can be so powerful thanks to this...I guess you missed this point in the game too.
Having a horde of mercenaries tracking you is part of the game, you get to kill them and be the best one...but you don't understand anything in that game it seems.



Flogger23m said:


> If you for 2 hours of quests, expect another 1-2 hours of grinding to keep your gear upgraded. Or pay up for the booster.


Totally wrong again.



Flogger23m said:


> A level 50 character with level 48 gear is absolutely worthless, and there are multiple discouraging feedback loops which put you into a grind. Grind before quests for resources or go in without grinding, get a bounty, and then grind enough to pay it off or run to another NPC (or three) to kill them. To idea is to add multiple points where people will break down and just pay for the stupid boosters. That way they can level up quicker and start getting the +15% Assassin, Hunter or Warrior skills so gear grinding isn't as necessary.


You know you can upgrade your gear paying a black-smith, right ?
If you have a huge bounty just help a faction to get the territory and it will wipe the bounty... I guess there must be tons of guides, google it please.

Either you troll hard, either you...troll hard.
If so, good job.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 15, 2019)

I look at this whole store thing like i was buying a physical copy. If Walmart has it and Target does't then i'm going to Walmart.

Oh about the other thing...flip the dude a nickle before we cross the bridge next time.

I hate to make it short and sweet but y'all are holding me up from playing a good game.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 15, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> I look at this whole store thing like i was buying a physical copy. If Walmart has it and Target doesn't then i'm going to Walmart.


There's a bit of impressive, simple wisdom right there. If only it were that easy... Like it used to be..


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Still waiting for Steam to allow you to disable them.



Someone hasn't found the "disable steam overlay" button.



Chloe Price said:


> they release their platform in a state which is like in an early alpha.



More like...  dare I say it?  

An early Steam.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 15, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> There's a bit of impressive, simple wisdom right there. If only it were that easy... Like it used to be..



With having to take care of my elderly parents for the last eleven years that's the only way to look at things. Gaming is the break in a job that's 24/7, So i don't care what End Users Life Agreement i sign up for. If they want to take pics of me in the shower then make fun of me for needing a microscope and tweezers just to take a pee then so be it.


----------



## Roddey (Jun 15, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> With having to take care of my elderly parents for the last eleven years that's the only way to look at things. Gaming is the break in a job that's 24/7, So i don't care what End Users Life Agreement i sign up for. If they want to take pics of me in the shower then make fun of me for needing a microscope and tweezers just to take a pee then so be it.


The worst part is being stuck at home and gaming is a diversion from the mundane part of it. I worked to get a retirement and planned to be on a beach somewhere. Well I had two years of that(thankfully) but now have a parent to take care of. Dreams out the window for now.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 15, 2019)

So I just got access via Xbox game pass pc, Its in Beta at the minute so it too is not perfect and in the actual app, the shop and account and social sections are not bad but need work but it has no achievements, however the original Xbox (now companion app) does have updated achievments, even for the likes of metro exodus, i found it odd but interesting.

Clearly, Epic needs to do some work , but it could be good in a few years but they need to get on with it, I think they could have done better personally.

Metro is pretty good, I'm surprised how well it runs maxed with hair and PhysX on, at 4k on a vega 64 (Oc'd a bit), I will be playing at those settings, the non Rtx lighting and effects are still pretty damn good i actually thought Rtx or DxR was possibly running at one point in the game but obvs, it wasn't.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 15, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Metro is pretty good,


I think you’re really going to like it. It blows the previous 2 away.  So much attention to little details were crafted in.  An amazing game that is one of the greats, IMHO.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 15, 2019)

With all these privacy issues coming up, it helped me to make a decision about what to play after A Plague Tale Innocence. I'll play Watch Dogs 2, I'm not in the right mood to tackle Rage 2 just yet.

Oh i did make a mistake when when i said parents. Dad died 6 years ago after mom had a run in with a telephone pole and that turned out to be a good thing. A few months after his death mom fell and broke her hip and it took me 6 months to nurse her back from the edge of death. In and out of the hospital for pneumonia during that time and not eating. While she was lucid at times at other times she had the delusions of me going to Mississippi for whisky and she does't even drink. Well to make a really long story short i finally got her to fight and eat, now she's back to being the strong woman she's always been...but she still needs my help. Thanks for letting me vent. Besides games and this place i've got nowhere to do so...well except outside to scream every now and then.


----------



## Roddey (Jun 15, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> With all these privacy issues coming up, it helped me to make a decision about what to play after A Plague Tale Innocence. I'll play Watch Dogs 2, I'm not in the right mood to tackle Rage 2 just yet.
> 
> Oh i did make a mistake when when i said parents. Dad died 6 years ago after mom had a run in with a telephone pole and that turned out to be a good thing. A few months after his death mom fell and broke her hip and it took me 6 months to nurse her back from the edge of death. In and out of the hospital for pneumonia during that time and not eating. While she was lucid at times at other times she had the delusions of me going to Mississippi for whisky and she does't even drink. Well to make a really long story short i finally got her to fight and eat, now she's back to being the strong woman she's always been...but she still needs my help. Thanks for letting me vent. Besides games and this place i've got nowhere to do so...well except outside to scream every now and then.


Letting you know that others out here are in a similar position. Its OK to vent now and again. Gaming is a great stress reliever. Persevere!!


----------



## INSTG8R (Jun 19, 2019)

Doesn’t care about achievements, but thanks Xbox Game Pass I’m playing Exodus for 10kr NOK even the regular 40kr a month is a steal!


----------



## Flogger23m (Jun 23, 2019)

c2DDragon said:


> If you fail to assassinate, engrave bonus to your armor pieces...you can be so powerful thanks to this...
> 
> *You know you can upgrade your gear paying a black-smith, right ?*



Looks like English isn't your native language. I've already addressed this multiple times now. Either you're not very intelligent or reading English simply isn't something you do very well. That is putting it as kindly as one can.

I'll humor you since your reading skills aren't too good:



			
				Flogger23m said:
			
		

> If you for 2 hours of quests, expect another 1-2 hours of *grinding to keep your gear upgraded*. Or pay up for the booster.



How damn dumb can you be? You literally quoted it. Read the bold parts of each quotes in. If you can't understand that you either:

- Have terrible English reading/comprehension skills (which is okay)
- Are an outright imbecile (not okay when you accuse someone of trolling to mask your lack of intelligence)

I can do the same for all of your other "points" but I already did previously so the effort is wasted.



moproblems99 said:


> You sir are not playing the same game.  Gear and level are practically meaningless.



It absolutely does. Again, I'm not the only one who noticed it. I linked to a review site and a parody video which both point it out. Try assassinating someone when you're in a region that is 1-2 levels higher than you. Even with all but 1-2 pieces of armor the same level as your character and enemy, you will still get cut through very easily. But it typically comes down to prioritizing armor or weapons. Each level you gain you can upgrade maybe one piece of equipment normally. EX) You upgrade your bow, and by the time you get enough money and resources to upgrade your chest plate you've gained 1-2 levels. Of course the issue compounds because now you may have one piece of armor which is 3-5 levels lower and getting something on par is next to impossible as ~90% of the pickups you get are below level or inferior. And they will lack engravings to boot, which will ruin your build. That stacking 30% Hunter Damage you had will go out the window if you use any old random piece of garbage armor you get.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 23, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Looks like English isn't your native language. I've already addressed this multiple times now. Either you're not very intelligent or reading English simply isn't something you do very well. That is putting it as kindly as one can.
> 
> I'll humor you since your reading skills aren't too good:


As their profile clearly states "France", it's not a difficult task to conclude that english is not their primary language. And to be fair, I think their english a very good.



Flogger23m said:


> How damn dumb can you be? You literally quoted it. Read the bold parts of each quotes in. If you can't understand that you either:
> 
> - Have terrible English reading/comprehension skills (which is okay)
> - Are an outright imbecile (not okay when you accuse someone of trolling to mask your lack of intelligence)
> ...


You could be a little more hospitable and less insulting. To be fair they made a few valid points.


----------



## Flogger23m (Jun 23, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> As their profile clearly states "France", it's not a difficult task to conclude that english is not their primary language. And to be fair, I think their english a very good.
> 
> 
> You could be a little more hospitable and less insulting. To be fair they made a few valid points.



They could originally be from an English speaking country (or be fluent in it regardless). Hospitality goes out the window when you quote someone, don't even read the message you're quoting and then add insults on top if it in a poor attempt to ignore what you're quoting. If you can't even respond to a message why bother? The fact that I have reiterated the same points over and over again, used examples and even linked to others who noted how in your face the issues are and turning around and saying  "you didn't play the game" is outright absurd.

Perhaps they're paid by Ubisoft considering their location?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 23, 2019)

@Flogger23m your blatant anger and insults of people’s intelligence and English comprehension in an off-topic point doesn’t hide the fact that if you are regularly playing without enough money to keep parts of your equipment from getting 3-6 levels below you, then clearly you are not up to the task of playing the game. 

I never lack for money (it’s all out there), and don’t lack for the ability to take on enemies with my gear sometimes a level below.  Its just not a big issue for me in this game.  I absolutely have fun, and I don’t have to work real hard getting the resources to keep up.


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 23, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I never lack for money (it’s all out there), and don’t lack for the ability to take on enemies with my gear sometimes a level below.  Its just not a big issue for me in this game.  I absolutely have fun, and I don’t have to work real hard getting the resources to keep up.



Just gather as you go from one place to the next...simple Simon stuff.


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 25, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Looks like English isn't your native language. I've already addressed this multiple times now. Either you're not very intelligent or reading English simply isn't something you do very well. That is putting it as kindly as one can.
> 
> I'll humor you since your reading skills aren't too good:
> 
> ...


English is not my native language.
I understand very well what you wrote. It is just you are not playing as it is intended to be played.
You think your way is the way but you are 100% wrong.
If you lack of currency maybe you just kill ennemies without looting and move. You can sell weapons/gear you don't need, gather wood, stones etc...
It's an exploration game, you travel, discover things, earn exp doing this, get rewards cleaning areas from ennemies, loots and money, help athenians or spartans and earn exp/money/loots. You can sell the loots...
Again...YOU DON'T HAVE TO GRIND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the rest, thank you, I guess.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 25, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Thank you.
> 
> @Flogger23m it is painfully obvious you do not understand “pay to win”.  AC:O, which is not the subject of this thread, although you have tried to make it one, requires not one cent to be paid. I have done just fine and enjoyed the hell out of it. Indeed, 275 hours in and no extra payments kind of proves you are barking up the wrong tree.
> 
> ...



This is an interesting contradiction.

What you are actually saying - and @moproblems99 as well, is that you are smart enough at the game to not feel any urge to spend money to advance quicker, and therefore its not pay to win game design at heart.

Now consider a kid that gets what, 1,5 hours per day playtime on the computer. How many hours in the game do you have? I think this makes the point painfully clear.

The fact remains - and there is simply no way around that - that game design around fetch quests with a repetitive nature - grinding - stems from the MMO, a type of game designed around keeping players online as often and long as possible. And inherent to that game design is always a way to advance faster - that is how you get those typical MMO zerg runs / speed clearing. Its not about a game experience to really enjoy, its about clearing content as efficiently as possible. Note however the two aren't mutually exclusive either, there is a certain enjoyment to be had in attaining that efficiency alone or as a group, but still.

Now, also consider the motivation beyond MMO concepts for developers: as @Flogger23m mentioned; its also an efficiency based design from a dev point of view. Its easy to make these quests, and its easy to make a lot of them. Low cost, high playtime potential. Much easier than getting some real handmade content that may last, say just 12 hours to complete. Odyssey kinda mixes the two up a bit, but still, its in there. And the part that makes this design pay to win and not just 'efficiency based', is because a cash store is tied to progression as well. As little or as much as it does, is irrelevant - the fact that its there is a telltale sign about the focus of game design.

Developers experiment with this alot. Remember Shadow of War? If you wanted to min-max, its either a long grind or some loot boxes. Was the game pay to win at its core? No, but beyond the story, the game was designed around the concept. And after the initial hype (and criticism) had passed, they killed them after all.

Food for thought


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jun 25, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> This is an interesting contradiction.
> 
> What you are actually saying - and @moproblems99 as well, is that you are smart enough at the game to not feel any urge to spend money to advance quicker, and therefore its not pay to win game design at heart.
> 
> ...


I hear what you say, but what @c2DDragon says in this quote sums it up beautifully:


c2DDragon said:


> It's an exploration game, you travel, discover things, earn exp doing this, get rewards cleaning areas from ennemies, loots and money, help athenians or spartans and earn exp/money/loots. You can sell the loots...
> Again...YOU DON'T HAVE TO GRIND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There is so much to do and so many ways to do things and advance that it’s not a grind.  It’s set in ancient frickin Greece, how cool is that?!     Basically, if someone thinks this is grindy, then they didn’t like TW3 either because the game setup is extremely similar.

You want grind? Try that abominable DA:I.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 25, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I hear what you say, but what @c2DDragon says in this quote sums it up beautifully:
> 
> 
> There is so much to do and so many ways to do things and advance that it’s not a grind.  It’s set in ancient frickin Greece, how cool is that?!     Basically, if someone thinks this is Grundy, then they didn’t like TW3 either because the game setup is extremely similar.
> ...



Yeah that is why I pointed out Odyssey mixes it up - and pretty well at that - but still, don't confuse YOUR experience with the game (and with knowledge of the amount of time you can spend on it per day) with that of another person.

You read forum comments and opinions right? How many times didn't you read about game X where the presence of a cash shop with experience items was defended by PEOPLE, customers like you and me, who said it was a nice way for them to enjoy game X while having a busy life? I can remember a lot of those... and I'm very sure there are posts like that on the Ubi forums. Just try to imagine the actual poverty of that idea: you buy cash shop progression 'to enjoy the game'. Nuff said... "Insert a Coin to continue" comes to mind.

DA:I is another good example indeed. I've always said it was a game with identity crisis.
and... yes, I've also pointed out the same about TW3, but TW3 is another example of a game that hides that fact so well, you stop caring and actually is voiced and scripted well, not all that repetitive, - and more importantly: there is NO CASH SHOP tied to progression.

There is another side effect to that cash shop based progression boost. Modding gets locked out, cheating gets locked out.  But: you can buy them! So in essence this type of game design is at odds with quite a few cool aspects of PC gaming. My second playthrough of TW3 I just straight up boosted myself to level 20. You try that in Odyssey


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 25, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> This is an interesting contradiction.
> 
> What you are actually saying - and @moproblems99 as well, is that you are smart enough at the game to not feel any urge to spend money to advance quicker, and therefore its not pay to win game design at heart.
> 
> ...





Vayra86 said:


> Yeah that is why I pointed out Odyssey mixes it up - and pretty well at that - but still, don't confuse YOUR experience with the game (and with knowledge of the amount of time you can spend on it per day) with that of another person.
> 
> You read forum comments and opinions right? How many times didn't you read about game X where the presence of a cash shop with experience items was defended by PEOPLE, customers like you and me, who said it was a nice way for them to enjoy game X while having a busy life? I can remember a lot of those... and I'm very sure there are posts like that on the Ubi forums. Just try to imagine the actual poverty of that idea: you buy cash shop progression 'to enjoy the game'. Nuff said... "Insert a Coin to continue" comes to mind.
> 
> ...


The boosters are for those who want to pay extra to finish the game faster. You don't need them. If people think they need them, they just don't want to play the game but just rush the main quest.
Now, why would you want to finish the game faster ? If you play let's say 1h a day, what is the problem ? There is no competition tied to the completion. You can enjoy the whole product, you don't even need to be online to play Odyssey.
What's the point skipping tons of beautyful landscapes, "secrets", history, the joy of discoveries and go rush the main quest and DLCs' to wait the next DLC ARC ?
They add stories every months. Nothing forces you to beat the game in 24h, you can litteraly ignore the main quest and do your misthios life if you want.
Again, without competition, it's a nonsense to use the term "Pay2Win".
You can even have cool stuff from the shop doing the dailies and the weekly quests for free using the orichalcum you get as a reward from those quests.
If people think they need everything they see in cash shops, well, I cannot help at this point.
Also, as a non native english I want to clarify something. @Flogger23m said multiple times that you "need to" grind. Need means it's necessary, which is wrong here because you just have to play the game doing any activities to be rich and powerful.



Flogger23m said:


> They could originally be from an English speaking country (or be fluent in it regardless). Hospitality goes out the window when you quote someone, don't even read the message you're quoting and *then add insults on top if* it in a poor attempt to ignore what you're quoting. If you can't even respond to a message why bother? The fact that I have reiterated the same points over and over again, used examples and even linked to others who noted how in your face the issues are and turning around and saying  "you didn't play the game" is outright absurd.
> 
> Perhaps they're paid by Ubisoft considering their location?


Let's clarify something, I don't see any insults except in your posts against me. Please provide quotes of my insults I'm supposed to have wrote about you. You are clearly disrespectul and you are stuck in your point of view. I think the fact we don't share your point of view broke something and you act like this. I don't know. I think it's sad.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 25, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Now consider a kid that gets what, 1,5 hours per day playtime on the computer. How many hours in the game do you have? I think this makes the point painfully clear.



I have like 30 hours in 5 months.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 26, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I have like 30 hours in 5 months.



But youre not a kid that is highly susceptible to peer pressure, for example. You are also more aware of the value of money, etc. and you have other things to worry about surely.

@c2DDragon Maybe the term 'monetization of gameplay/playtime' is better suited; but really its mostly semantics. "Boosters are for those that want to pay extra to finish faster" is still the same BS really. Why isnt there a cheat for that instead? Because its a business model that works; filler content that uses people's OCD and completionist urges - psychological abuse quite like the lootbox mechanic. There is no way around that, and it influences the gameplay for everyone including you - it reduces the degree of control you have over the game.


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 26, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> @c2DDragon Maybe the term 'monetization of gameplay/playtime' is better suited; but really its mostly semantics. "Boosters are for those that want to pay extra to finish faster" is still the same BS really. Why isnt there a cheat for that instead? Because its a business model that works; filler content that uses people's OCD and completionist urges - psychological abuse quite like the lootbox mechanic. There is no way around that, and it influences the gameplay for everyone including you - it reduces the degree of control you have over the game.


I didn't feel any impact during the game.
If you want cheats you can use trainers, if really you feel tricked.





						Assassin's Creed: Odyssey - Trainer +28 v1.0.2-v1.5.4 {FLiNG} - Download - GTrainers
					






					gtrainers.com
				



or





						Assassin's Creed: Odyssey - PC Game Trainer Cheat   PlayFix No-CD No-DVD | GameCopyWorld
					

The biggest totally free game fix & trainer library online for PC Games [https://gamecopyworld.com]



					www.gamecopyworld.com
				




Also there are glitches in the game if REALLY you guys feel stabbed in the back and want to get a sort of revenge...









I personally didn't use any cheat or glitch because I really didn't feel what you guys explain, in this game. I clearly believe the fact there are boosters makes you paranoid (no offense), I did feel the game was rewarding in term of exp & money enough.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 26, 2019)

c2DDragon said:


> I didn't feel any impact during the game.
> If you want cheats you can use trainers, if really you feel tricked.
> 
> 
> ...



Trainers and XP glitches are both against the Terms of Use  not that it matters but still, it says alot.

You are still missing the point though - I also said that Odyssey hides the design well and its personal whether or not it affects YOU... but it would simply not exist if it didnt make Ubisoft money. The fact remains, those boosts exist and they exist because people are susceptible to pay to win mechanics. Winning can also be finishing a game. Doesnt need competition from other players.

Stop applying your personal experience and try to take a step back, and you might see it. And note, its really not about Odyssey, but about recognizing the elements of the game's design.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Trainers and XP glitches are both against the Terms of Use  not that it matters but still, it says alot.


If we were talking about multiplayer, that would be a thing, but this is single player, so who cares. Additionally, fair-use over-rides and supersedes EULA/TermsOfUse, so trainers are perfectly legal and acceptable for personal use. Additionally, GameCopyWorld has been around for about two decades and have a hard-earned reputation for being malware/virus free.


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 26, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Trainers and XP glitches are both against the Terms of Use  not that it matters but still, it says alot.
> 
> You are still missing the point though - I also said that Odyssey hides the design well and its personal whether or not it affects YOU... but it would simply not exist if it didnt make Ubisoft money. The fact remains, those boosts exist and they exist because people are susceptible to pay to win mechanics. Winning can also be finishing a game. Doesnt need competition from other players.
> 
> Stop applying your personal experience and try to take a step back, and you might see it. And note, its really not about Odyssey, but about recognizing the elements of the game's design.


The exp glitch is not new and I don't think the team even wants to fix it, I think they don't care because, again, there is no competition, please.
I am forced to use my personal experience to explain my point of view.
If you want me to say more, here is what I think. Those cash shops permit the devs to earn extra money from people who can spend unlimited amount of cash (and there are tons of) and so, those persons help to support the developement of new content. I don't talk only about the boosters but the skins they create every months, armors, horses, naval things, weapons, which are on the cash shop BUT can be earned for free using orichalcum ore you get from dailies and weeklies...enhancing the game more.
It's a good way to get money from people who already bought the game. It's not needed. It doesn't destroy the non-cash shop players' experience at all.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 26, 2019)

c2DDragon said:


> The exp glitch is not new and I don't think the team even wants to fix it, I think they don't care because, again, there is no competition, please.
> I am forced to use my personal experience to explain my point of view.
> If you want me to say more, here is what I think. Those cash shops permit the devs to earn extra money from people who can spend unlimited amount of cash (and there are tons of) and so, those persons help to support the developement of new content. I don't talk only about the boosters but the skins they create every months, armors, horses, naval things, weapons, which are on the cash shop BUT can be earned for free using orichalcum ore you get from dailies and weeklies...enhancing the game more.
> It's a good way to get money from people who already bought the game. It's not needed. It doesn't destroy the non-cash shop players' experience at all.



I get that, and I agree with you. And I've also always said cosmetics are a great way to deploy a cash shop for games as well.

I never said Odyssey is a pay-to-win game at heart, but it _does_ have elements of pay to win-type game design in there, the goal is not much different from the MMO that wants you to keep playing as long as possible - and at a low dev cost 'per hour' at that. Why do they want you to keep playing? So they can design another set of fancy pants for your character? Of course - its so that you _buy that content_. Giving free content also falls in that category, its an incentive to get paid content as well 'out of goodwill'. Those free things keep you tied to the game and more likely to spend on grossly overpriced DLC. 'Enhancing the game more' is another way to put it, yes. But its not charity, its a business model that serves to get you to pay more money. Its not because devs are poor.

Is this bad/negative, depends how you look at it and what you look for in games. Is it detrimental to game design in a larger scheme of things.... I get the impression that it is. Games don't get better from post-launch cosmetic content, new skins or a new vehicle to drive. Games get better from talented devs and a well scoped project that simply gets finished, and its just very simple, those are pretty rare. TW3 is an example of it, Divinity OS(2) are examples of that - and they are blockbusters partly for that reason - even though they deploy game design not much different from AC:O.

The reason this type of game design works well for the recent couple of AC's, is in great part because there is a pretty solid team behind it as well. Many other games do something quite similar and fail miserably - they _feel like the theme park MMO_. DA:I is a great example of that. Its a design that works, but its good to remember where it stems from and what the motivation behind it really is - and when it goes wrong it becomes painfully clear what you've gotten into. That is the point I wanted to make, no more  For all of these games its walking a fine line between immersion breaking P2W and well designed, content heavy games at a reasonable price. I have to say Ubisoft is mastering the art pretty rapidly. GR:W is not much different either, but still does the same trick pretty well in its own way.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 27, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> But youre not a kid that is highly susceptible to peer pressure,



 You don't know me!


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 27, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> If we were talking about multiplayer, that would be a thing, but this is single player, so who cares. Additionally, fair-use over-rides and supersedes EULA/TermsOfUse, so trainers are perfectly legal and acceptable for personal use. Additionally, GameCopyWorld has been around for about two decades and have a hard-earned reputation for being malware/virus free.



I got the trainer for Watchdogs 2 and set it up. Here's what it said about playing online...





Now i can really go to town mayhem wise. I can see these trainers can breath new life into old games. I may have to use them in the future if arthritis gets me and i want to still play.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 27, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> I got the trainer for Watchdogs 2 and set it up. Here's what it said about playing online...
> View attachment 125780
> 
> Now i can really go to town mayhem wise. I can see these trainers can breath new life into old games. I may have to use them in the future if arthritis gets me and i want to still play.


But you can otherwise play the game single player.


----------



## c2DDragon (Jun 27, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> I got the trainer for Watchdogs 2 and set it up. Here's what it said about playing online...
> View attachment 125780
> 
> Now i can really go to town mayhem wise. I can see these trainers can breath new life into old games. I may have to use them in the future if arthritis gets me and i want to still play.


But you are removing some fun times by playing offline.
I saw many different players few weeks ago. The game is not dead.
Chasing and dealing with outlaws running away from cops or watching a hacked player getting mad and shooting everybody while you hack him ahah it adds a lot.
At least you cannot be hacked


----------



## metalfiber (Jun 27, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> But you can otherwise play the Single player.


 Oh yeah and i never play any online games anyhow so no loss there.


----------



## Flogger23m (Jul 1, 2019)

Didn't check back for a few days, but let me respond to these.



rtwjunkie said:


> @Flogger23m your blatant anger and insults of people’s intelligence and English comprehension in an off-topic point doesn’t hide the fact that if you are regularly playing without enough money to keep parts of your equipment from getting 3-6 levels below you, then clearly you are not up to the task of playing the game.



You realize you started the insults right? You tell me what sounds aggressive here:



			
				Flogger23m said:
			
		

> I finished playing it a few days back. I  put around 80 hours into it. Game absolutely is grind based and you have to artificially spend time gathering resources, playing literal delivering & fetch quests and spends hours doing junk content to be able to afford to keep upgrading. If you don't the game will become impossibly difficult. It  certainly has ushered in a new era of pay to win for SP games.





			
				rtwjunkie said:
			
		

> Instead of wasting money to end up complaining, either learn to enjoy gaming for gaming’s sake, for the immersive escape it is, or find a new hobby which pleases you.



Translation: If you played a game and don't like the business practices, enjoy it anyways or STFU and find a new hobby. That is outright insulting and ironically aggressive.

C2dDragon's posts are even worse as he quotes someone, then disregards what he quoted, questions again while adding an insult in there. He sees criticism of something he likes, quotes them and then seemingly forgets what he even quoted when writing his response. That is just insulting. He seems to devolve every mechanic designed around grinding and paid boosters into a lecture of how people don't know how to play the game when the reply he is quoting details the game mechanics.

Just to give you an example, I talk about gameplay mechanics including upgrading gear.



			
				Flogger23m said:
			
		

> Wrong. If you do that your gear will be under leveled. This means it will take 15-20 hits to take down an enemy but they can knock you out in 4-5 hits. It means you cannot assassinate someone silently. This rolls back into other grindy loops designed to take longer and make it more of a pain. If you cannot quickly assassinate someone you will get caught for having an open fight, which means bounty hunters. Which means running to the same repeating locations to kill the random NPC who put a bounty on you or paying it off. Neither of which are practical. Which means grinding more for soft leather to get your gear to an acceptable level.
> 
> *If you for 2 hours of quests, expect another 1-2 hours of grinding to keep your gear upgraded. *Or pay up for the booster.
> 
> A level 50 character with level 48 gear is absolutely worthless, and there are multiple discouraging feedback loops which put you into a grind. Grind before quests for resources or go in without grinding, get a bounty, and then grind enough to pay it off or run to another NPC (or three) to kill them. To idea is to add multiple points where people will break down and just pay for the stupid boosters. That way they can level up quicker and start getting the +15% Assassin, Hunter or Warrior skills so gear grinding isn't as necessary.



A screen shot of his posts with my quotes in them:





Yes, he replies and quotes a post from me talking about upgrades and then in the same reply questions if I know that you can upgrade gear in the game. *He just replied to it! *That is outright insulting.

He takes it to another level and says that if you point out the game mechanics you're either "trolling hard" or "trolling hard".  Which is ironic, because his post is the most troll like in this thread. Quotes a post, ignores what he quoted and then adds an insult. 

Up to you to decide what his issue is, I've already pointed out the two logical explanations for his posting style. 

I'm sure his reply will still be "you don't know how to play the game, even though you thoroughly explained the mechanics and have put 90+ hours into it while having finished it". 



			
				R-T-B said:
			
		

> Someone hasn't found the "disable steam overlay" button.



But that disables the entire overlay, and not just achievement pop ups.


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## redditboy (Jul 18, 2019)

Animalpak said:


> We all know the rage that caused the choice of 4A games to take off (even if for 1 year) Metro Exodus on Steam.
> 
> I bought Metro Exodus on Epic store because I'm a fan of the saga. Epic store is empty ... Contains only keys to buy install and play
> 
> ...


hole time Epic Games try to differ from steam and you want them to steal steam's main feature? sounds strange


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