# What memory for a Z97X Gaming 3?



## Danny_G13 (Aug 7, 2014)

Ok so I already bought my rig, and got myself a nice quick BSOD relating to RAM - a memory management BSOD with parameter 1 of 0x41790 on this page:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff557391

My RAM is G Skill F3-2400C10D-16GTX - and I got two of the kits making my RAM 32GB in total.

Having received said BSOD (which clearly related to memory) I ran HCI Memtest Pro and have been greeted with quite a few errors. None when just one DIMM was installed (have tested all 4 sticks individually), one or two when I had two sticks in, and they're guaranteed when all 4 sticks are in.

Now I didn't realise this RAM was only a 16GB kit, as in that there's no guarantee of full compatibility if you use 4 sticks of it to make 32GB.

I checked out Gigabyte's memory compatibility list for this motherboard (aforementioned Z97X Gaming 3) and indeed this RAM is not listed as compatible at all, never mind in 4 sticks. However G Skill's configurator DID include this RAM under this motherboard. Which puts me in a conflicted mind.

I am more inclined to trust Gigabyte's requirements than G Skill as it's G Skill trying to sell their RAM, and I have experienced errors in HCI Memtest with it and aforementioned BSOD.

I am deciding between 16GB kit of G Skill that IS listed on Gigabyte's compatibility list for the board, and the 32GB kit they list, also G Skill. All 2400MHz.

My question is this though: am I plain wrong? Should this RAM work happily as 32GB despite being designed as a 16GB kit? And who do I trust regarding potential replacement RAM? Gigabyte or G Skill?

PS: Thanks for the help, and nice to join the board!


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## erocker (Aug 7, 2014)

Did you make sure the timing and voltage are set correctly in the bios? Are you using an XMP profile?


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 7, 2014)

erocker said:


> Did you make sure the timing and voltage are set correctly in the bios? Are you using an XMP profile?



Fair point, I just configured the clock speed and the voltage at 1.66 as the board doesn't have 1.65 exactly. I didn't configure any CAS and I have no idea if I used XMP. I'll check the BIOS and get back to you on that.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

Ok the BIOS had the timings horribly wrong. The setting was at 'auto' and the left column said they were at at 9/9/9/24. This memory is 10/12/12/31 - way off!

I wasn't using an XMP.

Voltages are set to, as I say, 1.66 given 1.65 isn't available.

So this, in theory, should make my troubles go away?!

Thank you for your reply btw, appreciate it.

PS: does that make my theorising wrong after all? You seemed to suggest with your reply that this memory would be just fine with the board (if configured correctly) despite being a 16GB kit and not being listed by Gigabyte?


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## Kursah (Aug 8, 2014)

You should use XMP. The settings on the left column should be the standard default settings at 1333 boot iirc, then the right column is the actual settings. Might be different on your board.

You should refer to the manual of your mainboard for BIOS settings, but I recommend you look into using XMP, makes tuning your board for RAM much easier in most cases.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

Kursah said:


> You should use XMP. The settings on the left column should be the standard default settings at 1333 boot iirc, then the right column is the actual settings. Might be different on your board.
> 
> You should refer to the manual of your mainboard for BIOS settings, but I recommend you look into using XMP, makes tuning your board for RAM much easier in most cases.



For the time being I have (apparently) corrected the timings. I do have two queries:

Isn't XMP essentially an overclocking tool?

&

My RAM clock was at 1333MHz when I first plugged it in, I had to use a RAM multipier to change that to 2400MHz. Is that correct?

I'm quite out of the hardware loop, I'm coming from an i7 920 I bought 5 years ago!

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

Right on cue another BSOD with the same memory management error albeit a different parameter 1.

One thing I'm just not clear on is despite my OP I'm lost as to whether I should be able to run this RAM on this board?


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 8, 2014)

Danny_G13 said:


> For the time being I have (apparently) corrected the timings. I do have two queries:
> 
> Isn't XMP essentially an overclocking tool?
> 
> ...




Enable XMP. Its the Xtreme Memory Profile. It pretty much sets your memory to exactly what its suppose too be. Sometimes you might need to tweak a few things, like some secondary timings might not be right, or might need to increase VCCSA (System Agent) voltage a little bit but it all depends.

But no matter what, if your memory is over 1600mhz, thats considered to be an overclock in respect to Intel Memory Controller which has a native max clock of 1600mhz. Even if your memory is rated to run higher then that, you are still considered to be overclocking.

The memory you are trying to run should not have an issue with your board. Just need to get it set up right.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

Yup, after my last post complaining of another BSOD I did indeed enable XMP profile 1 - I get it now. It correctly configures the broad spectrum of settings which include voltage.

Interesting re: the memory controller. I didn't realise that all clocks above 1600MHz are regarded by the host controller as an overclock. 

How would I identify the correct secondary timings for this memory? There are a lot of them! And I have no idea what VCCSA is.


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## RealNeil (Aug 8, 2014)

Intel XMP is the brainchild of Intel and memory manufacturers. (XMP means Extreme Memory Profile)
It is the very best _tested factory settings_ for your RAM that is embedded into the RAM stick by the manufacturer when it's made.
Using the XMP profile is the easiest way to set RAM up to factory recommended specs.

Go to XMP and enable it. Your motherboard reads the XMP profile, sets everything accordingly, and you're good to go.
You can try to use timings and voltage adjustments to get faster speeds, (and often it works) but it takes a lot of trial and error.



Danny_G13 said:


> How would I identify the correct secondary timings for this memory? There are a lot of them! And I have no idea what VCCSA is.



Use XMP and forget it,......


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 8, 2014)

Danny_G13 said:


> Yup, after my last post complaining of another BSOD I did indeed enable XMP profile 1 - I get it now. It correctly configures the broad spectrum of settings which include voltage.
> 
> Interesting re: the memory controller. I didn't realise that all clocks above 1600MHz are regarded by the host controller as an overclock.
> 
> *How would I identify the correct secondary timings for this memory? There are a lot of them! And I have no idea what VCCSA is*.



I wouldn't worry about it, unless you keep having problems.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

Thank you both. I will now leave all as is and hopefully I won't need to return to this thread and complain I got another BSOD!


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

Ok I ran HCI Memtest and still get errors. Don't get past about 15-20% of a pass before I get copy errors. Like I say I've tested individual 8GB sticks and they're fine, I'm just not convinced this system can handle 4 of them at once. Is there anything else I can do here to fix this? On XMP profile 1 etc.

HCI is pretty much the best memory test I've used given it unearths problems quicker than Memtest86.

Beginning to think I need different RAM.

Suggestions?


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 8, 2014)

Danny_G13 said:


> Ok I ran HCI Memtest and still get errors. Don't get past about 15-20% of a pass before I get copy errors. Like I say I've tested individual 8GB sticks and they're fine, I'm just not convinced this system can handle 4 of them at once. Is there anything else I can do here to fix this? On XMP profile 1 etc.
> 
> HCI is pretty much the best memory test I've used given it unearths problems quicker than Memtest86.
> 
> ...



Increase system agent voltage (VCCSA) a little bit. @cadaveca can help you more here.


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## JamieTwelve (Aug 8, 2014)

I just created an account to see of I could offer you some solid advice. I just built my new system. I have a Z97 Gaming 5, 4790K, GTX 780. I started getting BSODs almost immediately.

I don't know if your systems and circumstances are like mine, but I figured with the Gaming 3, you could probably use my experiences to your benefit. After installing Windows 8.1 I installed all of my drivers. But I did it from MSi's MoBo CD-Rom. That was a mistake. Go to their website and find the latest drivers for your components. Also, you may want to get rid of any MSi utility like Command Center and Afterburner until you narrow down what is causing the blue screens. Definitely update your chipset drivers for Intel and the Smart Connect drivers. I know based on my experience, it may throw a memory error or a WLAN error for the blue screen, but might have nothing to do with either of those components. So, don't confine yourself to deciding it's definitely a memory issue.

I am not sure what finally fixed it, but it was one of the drivers causing the blue screens. I posted and had help over at eightforums.com. If you have Win 7, go to sevenforums.com. My thread was here: http://www.eightforums.com/bsod-cra...-install-bsod-due-wlan-device.html#post408056
and without their help I would still be dealing with it. Those guys are great.You'll have to download their little program that pulls your dump files, but someone there will analyze it within 12 hours. It's one hell of a helpful community.

If you need any other advice, let me know and good luck.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 8, 2014)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Increase system agent voltage (VCCSA) a little bit. @cadaveca can help you more here.



I will resort to this if needed. I just removed two sticks and ran Memtest for the first time without any errors at all. Whenever I've run it with 2 or more sticks, I've always had errors, but that was before enabling XMP. I want to get a few days of decent use here then if all is still well over the weekend I may plug two more sticks in and try fiddling with VCCSA after consulting with Cadaveca.



JamieTwelve said:


> I just created an account to see of I could offer you some solid advice. I just built my new system. I have a Z97 Gaming 5, 4790K, GTX 780. I started getting BSODs almost immediately.
> 
> I don't know if your systems and circumstances are like mine, but I figured with the Gaming 3, you could probably use my experiences to your benefit. After installing Windows 8.1 I installed all of my drivers. But I did it from MSi's MoBo CD-Rom. That was a mistake. Go to their website and find the latest drivers for your components. Also, you may want to get rid of any MSi utility like Command Center and Afterburner until you narrow down what is causing the blue screens. Definitely update your chipset drivers for Intel and the Smart Connect drivers. I know based on my experience, it may throw a memory error or a WLAN error for the blue screen, but might have nothing to do with either of those components. So, don't confine yourself to deciding it's definitely a memory issue.
> 
> ...



Thoroughly appreciate your taking the time to sign up just to make this post, very kind of you. For now, I have reduced my RAM to 16GB with XMP enabled and as I say above, for the first time I've had no errors on a full pass. It probably isn't a driver issue in my case given I didn't install any of the disk software - I'd already downloaded all the up-to-date drivers for the motherboard, and always do keep my drivers as up to date as I can, and I never ever use any vendor utilities like those from Gigabyte or Asus or indeed MSI. I always use third-party ones such as CPUID etc.

I've also had that BSOD (memory_management) twice, and it's the only BSOD type I've had, which does make me 99% certain this is a RAM issue. I also never pointed out my system is Windows 7, and not 8. I wouldn't go near 8 if you paid me!

As for BSODs, generally unless your PSU is the culprit they're pretty accurate to the problem area. PSU is the one thing that can throw up utterly random BSODs and other errors and freezes and can be a total pain to diagnose. So if your BSOD keeps saying the same thing, chances are the same thing is causing it, and given my errors in HCI Memtest (till now fingers crossed) it does almost certainly confirm it to be RAM in my case.

Thank you again.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 9, 2014)

Ok another memory management BSOD. With the 16GB alone. Either my configuration isn't quite right or this RAM just isn't happy in this board.

What's this about system agent voltage @cadaveca ?


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 9, 2014)

Danny_G13 said:


> Ok another memory management BSOD. With the 16GB alone. Either my configuration isn't quite right or this RAM just isn't happy in this board.
> 
> What's this about system agent voltage @cadaveca ?


 
give us all your voltage options, even maybe post a screenshot of that section of your BIOS.

You can insert a USB flash drive and then there should be under where it has all the keys to do stuff in the bios, should be one for taking a screenshot. It gets saved to flash drive then you post it here.

System Agent voltage option is in where all the other voltage options are. Usually as VCCSA.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 9, 2014)

Cheers. I grabbed a shot of every relevant screen (including extra scroll) and possibly some non relevant screens!

I did notice the XMP profile said 1.65 for the RAM but the actual DRAM voltage page had me at 1.5, as you'll see. So I upped that to 1.66. Correct?

But anything else jump out at you here?


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 9, 2014)

CPU System Agent Voltage.

change that to +0.025v.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 9, 2014)

The first thing that needs to be mentioned is that the motherboard doesn't have a whole lot to do with the memory anymore.  The memory controller is located on the CPU, so the CPU actually has the most control over memory.

Also, unlike the old days, memory qualified lists aren't really necessary.  Thanks to the improved standards in memory, pretty much any memory will work unless it is faulty.

The big issue is that 1150 CPUs only officially support up to 1600MHz RAM.  So the memory controllers on the CPU are only tested by Intel up to that speed.  Anything beyond that isn't guaranteed to be stable.  It may be possible to run faster RAM, and most of the time you can, it isn't guaranteed.  In my experience 1866MHz is almost always doable with no voltage increase to the IMC.  However, when you go to 2133MHz and beyond you usually have to start bumping the IMC voltage a little.  This is even more true when running 4 sticks of RAM.

In my experience, and IMO, it isn't worth going over 1866MHz(especially not with the crap timings you need).  I'd rather run 1866-9-10-9-24 than 2400-10-12-12-31, there is really no noticeable difference by going beyond 1866, memory bandwidth is not the limiting factor at that point.  If you were running an AMD APU using the iGPU it might be different, but on Intel's side when not using the iGPU it doesn't make a noticeable difference.

You can up the CPU System Agent Voltage, which will up the IMC voltage, but as I said IMO it isn't worth it.

Either way, use Memtest86+ to test for RAM stability, and let it run at least 12 hours(I prefer 24).  Don't just wait for a BSOD.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 9, 2014)

newtekie1 said:


> The first thing that needs to be mentioned is that the motherboard doesn't have a whole lot to do with the memory anymore.  The memory controller is located on the CPU, so the CPU actually has the most control over memory.
> 
> Also, unlike the old days, memory qualified lists aren't really necessary.  Thanks to the improved standards in memory, pretty much any memory will work unless it is faulty.
> 
> ...



Very enlightening post. I fully understand what you're getting at here but I REALLY want to run the 4 sticks at full speed! The performance I'm getting is superb. btw Memtest86+ never seems to find anything wrong but HCI Memtest catches errors inside an hour. And given my repeated BSODs I feel more inclined to trust the latter.



MxPhenom 216 said:


> CPU System Agent Voltage.
> 
> change that to +0.025v.



I've given it a bash. I'll see how it goes.


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## cadaveca (Aug 9, 2014)

You might also want to set 1.65V in DRAM voltage...

Expect to need about 1.05V or more for System Agent. Also, vDIO also relates to memory stability, so you may want to push that a bit higher as well.

If you can give more info as to what BSOD you are getting, that'd help too.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 9, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> You might also want to set 1.65V in DRAM voltage...



Yup, did that following that post.



> Expect to need about 1.05V or more for System Agent. Also, vDIO also relates to memory stability, so you may want to push that a bit higher as well.



I pushed up VCCSA 0.025 as recommended, what is the default voltage for it? Roger on vDIO.



> If you can give more info as to what BSOD you are getting, that'd help too.



Same one every time albeit with a different parameter. See attachment.

I just ran a single pass of Memtest86+ (I've been using the non-plus old version by mistake) and it was absolutely fine. How long should I let it run before I should feel confident the system is stable?


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## cadaveca (Aug 9, 2014)

memory management errors point to VCCSA (System Agent) as the culprit, or perhaps a mis-configured timing by the BIOS.

VCCSA is a voltage that is different on each CPU. It has a wide range, but most CPUs I have had my hands on fall between 0.800v and 0.950v. So to push 1.05v for higher memory clocks requires a significant offset that might only be able to be calculated on some motherboards, as not all board offer actual monitoring of this critical voltage. It is also recommended to keep VCCSA @ less then 1.2V, so I would suggest taking the time to incrementally boost this voltage until stability is retained, and not use more than a 0.250 offset.

Memtest x86+ is not that great for finding real stability. On the forum for that software, you'll find mention by the author that it takes many days worth of testing for true stability to be known. I personally use at least 2 full passes.. and if you pay attention to those first two passes, you'll notice that the second pass takes TWICE as long as the first.. a clear indicator that the memory is not tested fully with every pass. However, generally speaking, if you can pass the first two passes, the sticks themselves are going to be good to go...but may require a slight boost in voltage or a timing adjustment to keep Windows running smoothly.

In your situation, I'd simply focus on those VCCSA adjustments, but also be aware that too many memory crashes on a UEFI BIOS can lead to BIOS corruption, which makes Memtest86+ a useful tool as it tends to freeze rather than reboot a system, unless there is a severe problem.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 9, 2014)

So what would you recommend as the 'ultimate' test of memory reliability & stability? Linx? Prime95? HCI Memtest? Everyone seems to swear by Memtest86+ but you're the first person to suggest it's not overly reliable.

Thanks for the rest of the advice, I really didn't expect this upgrade to be so tricky to get stable. But then, unreliability is usually related to overclocking and with Haswell over 1600MHz is 'overclocked' by default. So this is bringing back all the old tricks to make it stable without actual intentional overclocking. Can't deny I didn't expect it to be so tough to get a stock clocked system stable.


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## cadaveca (Aug 9, 2014)

I'm the sort that doesn't rely on just one test. I prefer to try ALL tests...plus gaming. For memory tweaking, I generally start with Memtest outside windows, then boot into OS and run SuperPi 32M after checking bandwidth in AIDA64, then Cinebench, then 3DMark benchmarks, then Handbrake, then Prime95, and then some gaming. That's not all I do, either... you can check my Haswell OC Guide that can be found listed on the front page for the full run-down that I use.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

Well I just ran 23+ hours of Memtest86+ without error so that is definitely a good start.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

PS can you link me to the guide? I don't see it anywhere.


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## cadaveca (Aug 10, 2014)

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Haswell_OC_Guide/


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

Ok getting hacked off now. A new BSOD error caused by....I'm not entirely sure any more.

What do I do now, I've been at this four days and getting nowhere.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

Having Googled it I come up with this page:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff560303(v=vs.85).aspx

"When the Memory Manager dereferenced the file, it discovered this corruption in pool memory."

Is this still related to VCCSA? I put it up 0.025 as recommended, but this BSOD suggests that's not enough.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

I've put it up a further 0.75 for a total increase of 0.100v.

If this doesn't fix it I'm out of ideas.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

Oh one last thing - every single BSOD has been during innocuous activity. Twice when waking up from sleep and twice when online surfing via web browser. Never under high-duty duress.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

Just ran the SuperPi 32M - was it meant to be so brief? Came through without any issue, 24 loops.

Sorry for all these posts, really trying to get to the bottom of this.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 10, 2014)

+0.075 might be a bit much.

Also edit your posts instead of double triple posting or mods will be on you quick.


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## Danny_G13 (Aug 10, 2014)

Ok, I'll edit in future. I put the VCCSA down to +50 - adding an extra 25.

Thing is, I find Linx to be an exceptionally reliable display of stability. And my system passes it no problem - indeed the only 'stability' test it's not passed yet is HCI Memtest and absolutely no one has addressed if that software is any good. It's passed Memtest86+, SuperPi 32M, and Linx64 so far.

I'm beginning to wonder if a flaky driver is at fault. But that is very hard to diagnose.


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## cadaveca (Aug 10, 2014)

raise vDIO +0.05v - +0.15v. That might help the HCLmemtest.


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