# Why does everyone hate the 4080?



## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

*EDIT*: 
Since people continue commenting and sometimes recommend the same thing to me, please note the following message I had posted yesterday.
Regardless, feel free to continue discussing this matter as you please. Turned out to be an interesting topic.


Omga4000 said:


> I've decide to cancel one of the orders of the 4080 and wait for the 7900 XTX. If it disappoints, I'll just wait another damn year and see what'll happen to GPU prices. Sigh.
> I'll discuss this with the person I had bought the 2nd GPU for and try to convince them to give it up and wait for the 7900 XTX as well.
> 
> Thank you very much to all of you who were actually useful and trying to help and educate me.
> Greatly appreciate the assistance!



*Original post*:
Hi everyone,

I've been seeing everyone BASHING on the 4080, honestly, for not apparent reason.
The main argument is: The 3080's MSRP is 699$, the 4080 is 1199$. nVidia is a greedy company.

Now here's my (logical?) counter-argument:

The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.
The 4080 is much closer to the 3080 Ti in terms of CUDE Cores and VRAM, and then 3080 Ti was released at the exact MSRP of 1,199$ as the 4080.
I assume the 4080 12GB was intended to be the "real" 4080, and the 4080 16GB the 4080 Ti? If nVidia would have simply called the 4080 16GB version a "4080 Ti" would people not be as pissed as they are?
The current market is awful, allowing nVidia to basically do whatever they want. Reality check, "courtesy" of pcpartpicker:
Want a 3090? Pay 1,298$+ (only 1 card at that price). ~13-23% slower than the 4080 for ~8% more money.
Want a 3090 Ti? Pay 1,639$+ (only 1 card at that price). ~9-14% slower than the 4080 for 36% more money.
Want a 4090? Pay 2,079$+ (only 1 card at that price - the next one is 2,199$). ~5-25% faster than the 4080 for *73%-83%* more money.
Or frantically refresh websites until (maybe) some website sells them at MSRP. Maybe.

And on a more personal note and a bit more details about my thought process here:

Yes - it's very justified for companies to spike their prices. nVidia isn't some charity organization intended to give back to the community. They are here to make money and please the investors first and foremost. If that means increasing the prices dramatically due to numerous reasons, such as: extremely high demand, shortage of chips in the industry, increased prices of the workforce, materials, development process and shipment, no competition, and purely because they can - they will do it.

Whether you (the user) like it or not makes 0 difference to them, since they have done their research (they have people smarter than many of us working on exactly that) and know it will sell either way due to the current market situation. They can only make X GPUs a year, knowing very well the vast majority of them will sell. Why sell them for 699$ a piece if it'll sell the exact same way for 1199$ a piece?

Is it ethical / good for consumers? Nope and nope.

Is it something that was done in the past? Only a million times by a million different companies. Tesla has been doing it for years.. Does that stop people from buying Teslas? Not really. They are still selling far more than they can produce. Only now people with less money can't afford it. Did you see Elon Musk crying about all those people who can't afford Teslas? Didn't think so.

Until nVidia produces more GPUs than they can sell, prices will continue rising. Until AMD/Intel doesn't produce anything worthwhile and competitive, prices will continue rising. Until scalpers will be dealt with, price will continue rising. This is a very very basic demand and supply issue.

This problem won't be fixed just because _xxx_insert_username_here_xxx_ can't afford a product, or thinks a private company is doing "unethical" things. They have enough customers without them, they've done their research. It being sold out very quickly just proves it they were not wrong.

Thoughts? 

Full disclosure:
OP had bought 2 RTX 4080's at MSRP for 2 different builds and doesn't understand all the fuss and hate around it.


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## wolf (Nov 17, 2022)

The price, it's just very poorly priced, the vast majority of tech press agree with that, it can DEFINITELY be sold for less.

I see your reasoning, and I disagree with your reasoning that it justifies the price. They are bucking the trend that you get more value as you go down, but the 4090 is better value?

The card itself seems fine, quite impressive even, but it's _insulting _at $1200 USD and is positioned to either upsell the 4090 and move 30 series stock. To some extent they're taking advantage of this window before AMD launch competing products too, just like with the 4090.

Let them sit on shelves till Nvidia gets it, which it is in a LOT of places.

Believe me, I'm the first one to try and leave the politics out of it, I could care less about "big bad greedy, shady, unethical leather jacket man" bulldust, but THIS PRODUCT, should not cost $1200 USD starting price, it needs a MINUMUM $200 price cut to be competitive, and longer-term sales will reflect that (selling out day 1 is nothing new, well priced or not).


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## GerKNG (Nov 17, 2022)

because they charge 1200 bucks for a f**** RTX XX80 GPU?!


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

wolf said:


> The price, it's just very poorly priced, the vast majority of tech press agree with that, it can DEFINITELY be sold for less.
> 
> I see your reasoning, and I disagree with your reasoning that it justifies the price.
> 
> ...



Telling me I'm wrong and that they can sell it for less is empty words. Can you show me the numbers who support this argument and show this is indeed the case?
How, in current market prices (which are insane), is the 4080 not priced correctly?
Note: I don't mean price _fairly_, I mean correctly as in it fits the performance it's providing compared to everything on the market right now.



GerKNG said:


> because they charge 1200 bucks for a f**** RTX XX80 GPU?!


Call it a 4080 Ti if it helps you handle it (?)
I doubt there will be a 4080 Ti anyway with the way things are priced right now. A 1,399$ card in-between the 4080 and the 4090 makes 0 to little sense, unless they want to kill the 4090.


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## 3x0 (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.


The 3090Ti pricing was ludicrous to begin with, but as it was, the 3090Ti was a halo product released in a time when mining was rampant and there was a shortage of cards- such pricing was expected. The 4080 should have been a more reasonable product than the halo cards and the current ridiculous price of 1200 dolarydoos doesn't make it that, especially when there is no shortage of other cards.


Omga4000 said:


> The 4080 is much closer to the 3080 Ti in terms of CUDE Cores and VRAM, and then 3080 Ti was released at the exact MSRP of 1,199$ as the 4080.
> I assume the 4080 12GB was intended to be the "real" 4080, and the 4080 16GB the 4080 Ti? If nVidia would have simply called the 4080 16GB version a "4080 Ti" would people not be as pissed as they are?


If the current 4080 16GB was named 4080Ti then it would have been ridiculed for how much cut down it is compared to 4090.

It's plain and simple, nV is price fixing the cards such that they incentivize people to buy the remaining 3000 stock, and then maybe cutting down 4000 prices if pressured by AMD.


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## trickson (Nov 17, 2022)

Video cards have become way overpriced and that is just a plain fact.
I try to get them under $350.00 but that is almost impossible now days. What a shame too.
Talk about greed all them crypto miners greedy bastards! got taken to the bank to LMFAO!


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## 64K (Nov 17, 2022)

It is normal for a xx80 to be faster than the previous generation's flagship so you can't compare the 4080 to the 3090 Ti as far as MSRP goes. It would be more accurate to compare the 4090 Ti (when/if it arrives) to the 3090 Ti.

A more accurate comparison would be to compare the 3080 MSRP ($700) to the 4080 MSRP ($1,200)

It's pretty obvious why people are not liking the huge price hike from the previous generation. Also pointing this out isn't hating. It's just people saying they don't like the huge price hike.


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## DemonicRyzen666 (Nov 17, 2022)

The mindshare is strong with this one.
all jokes as side,

The reason for this pricing, feels like a lack of compitetion. I'm sure if Nvidia wanted they probably would priced the the old 4080 12gb, which is now the 4070 ti now at $1,200. It really doesn't seem like AMD RDNA3 can compete even with ampere in raytracing let lone ada lovelace. It'll be really disappoiting, if a RTX 4070 ti beats the RX 7900 XTX in raytracing imo. Sure it beats is Rasterization but many people buy Nvidia for raytracing, DLSS, AI voice, "driver support", cuda, Nvec, & more.


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## wolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Telling me I'm wrong and that they can sell it for less is empty words.


I didn't say you were wrong, I said I disagree, which doesn't necessitate you being right, me being wrong, or vica versa. Nvidia will still sell some, of course they will, as it's priced it will make sense to some, like yourself I suppose and many others.

I won't entertain this any further though, you've made your point, so have I, you won't change your mind, neither will I - I assume we can agree on that front?


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## N/A (Nov 17, 2022)

At this rate 4060 will cost 599 for a 128 bit. Who has that kind of money. This is what i was saving for a full die 256 bit 4070 or slightly cut 4070 Ti carved out of 4080, so this is so out of reach and so slow that's practically useless for the money.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

3x0 said:


> The 3090Ti pricing was ludicrous to begin with, but as it was, the 3090Ti was a halo product released in a time when mining was rampant and there was a shortage of cards- such pricing was expected. The 4080 should have been a more reasonable product than the halo cards and the current ridiculous price of 1200 dolarydoos doesn't make it that, especially when there is no shortage of other cards.
> 
> If the current 4080 16GB was named 4080Ti then it would have been ridiculed for how much cut down it is compared to 4090.
> 
> It's plain and simple, nV is price fixing the cards such that they incentivize people to buy the remaining 3000 stock, and then maybe cutting down 4000 prices if pressured by AMD.


There isn't a shortage?
How come 3080's, 3090's and 3090 TI's are still being sold well above MSRP, then?
Even second-hand cards aren't that much of a steal.

The last point makes sense, but I once again raise the question: What are my options?
Wait another 4 years in the hopes the market stabilizes (maybe)?
New card, current market prices, right here and right now - what's the best bang for the buck?



trickson said:


> Video cards have become way overpriced and that is just a plain fact.
> I try to get them under $350.00 but that is almost impossible now days. What a shame too.
> Talk about greed all them crypto miners greedy bastards! got taken to the bank to LMFAO!


That's the sad truth, yes. Do you foresee this changing anytime soon and GPUs going back to their low prices?



64K said:


> It is normal for a xx80 to be faster than the previous generation's flagship so you can't compare the 4080 to the 3090 Ti as far as MSRP goes. It would be more accurate to compare the 4090 Ti (when/if it arrives) to the 3090 Ti.
> 
> A more accurate comparison would be to compare the 3080 MSRP ($700) to the 4080 MSRP ($1,200)
> 
> It's pretty obvious why people are not liking the huge price hike from the previous generation. Also pointing this out isn't hating. It's just people saying they don't like the huge price hike.


I would agree this is true if people hadn't tried convincing others not to purchase the 4080.
It's not a matter of "hey, the price-to-performance ratio is the same as a 3080 so if you have the money go buy it", it's strictly a "whoever buys this card is a clown".
That's just pure hate right there, and I am having this discussion in more than 1 forum.


DemonicRyzen666 said:


> The mindshare is strong with this one.
> all jokes as side,
> 
> The reason for this pricing, feels like a lack of compitetion. I'm sure if Nvidia wanted they probably would priced the the old 4080 12gb, which is now the 4070 ti now at $1,200. It really doesn't seem like AMD RDNA3 can compete even with ampere in raytracing let lone ada lovelace. It'll be really disappoiting, if a RTX 4070 ti beats the RX 7900 XTX in raytracing imo. Sure it beats is Rasterization but many people buy Nvidia for raytracing, DLSS, AI voice, "driver support", cuda, Nvec, & more.


Well, yes. I had mentioned lack of competition in my original post.
All the things you've mentioned are valid points for the price spike, isn't it?
You pay for things you may not receive elsewhere. You can't expect a Cadillac to cost as much as a Chevy.
If AMD made truly competitive cards we wouldn't be having this discussion right now and everyone would be happy 


wolf said:


> I didn't say you were wrong, I said I disagree. Nvidia will still sell some, of course they will, as it's priced it will make sense to some, like yourself I suppose and many others.
> 
> I won't entertain this any further though, you've made your point, so have I, you won't change your mind, neither will I - I assume we can agree on that front?


I disagree with your disagreement 
All I want is to see the numbers, really. I am very open to change my mind.
So far I was only given 1 valid point, which is the awful 16-pin connector.
Everything else I am just too dumb to understand, I guess. If you show me the numbers I'll probably agree.
I am not here to fight / say that I am right, I am truly here to expand my knowledge, discuss and hear other peoples' opinion.
Sorry if my original comment appeared harsh, that was not the intention.



N/A said:


> At this rate 4060 will cost 599 for a 128 bit. Who has that kind of money. This is what i was saving for a full die 256 bit 4070 or slightly cut 4070 Ti carved out of 4080, so this is so out of reach and so slow that's practically useless for the money.


As someone who isn't fully invested into the fine details, this doesn't tell me much.
I am looking at the end results - how much FPS am I getting? How does it compare to other things on the market?
If it's an 128-bit or 256-bit doesn't matter all that much to me, as long as the final result is good.
Do you mind explaining why this one is bad?


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## erocker (Nov 17, 2022)

RTX 3080 MSRP $699+
RTX 4080 MSRP $1200+

That much increase in one generation... Sorry but you have to have more money than sense to purchase this card. Seriously, it makes more sense to just buy the 4090 at this point. The 4080 isn't going to give you what you want at 4k and there's plenty of cheaper offerings that are more than enough for 1440p.


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## JATownes (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> As someone who isn't fully invested into the fine details, this doesn't tell me much.


And this is why you're not upset about the price, and that's fine. Some of us are fully invested into the fine details, and we know what die is being sold, and care about the memory bandwidth.  Some of us aren't just consumers, we're enthusiasts. 

If you've followed GPUs for long, including those fine details, you'd know that Nvidia is selling a 103 die, which is historically a xx70 series card, and charging $1200 dollars for it. 

Some of us into the fine details still miss the full 100 series dies, which us lowely enthusiasts can't feasibly get our hands on anymore.


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## evernessince (Nov 17, 2022)

The 4080 is an AD103 die that's smaller than even the 3070.

You are paying $3.166 USD per mm2 with the 4080

You are paying $1.275 USD per mm2 with the 3070

Ain't no way costs for Nvidia nearly trippled per mm2.  Cost for 5nm wafers were $16,000 in 2020, current estimates place them at around $9,000.  That means Nvidia is only paying a modest increase over 7nm and many times less than the price increase.

In direct response to your points

1)  The 3090 Ti was indeed thoroughly lambasted for it's price.  The 4080 is taking a larger negative hit because unlike the 3090 Ti, it is not a flagship card where insane pricing can be excused.  The xx80 class is a lot of people's go to card each generation as it's usually reasonably priced while providing near flagship performance.  With the 4080, not only did they massively increase the price but they also reduced the shader count to such a degree that the card is no longer within striking distance of the flagship card.  In essence Nvidia is saying that now not even $1,200 will get you anywhere near their best effort anymore and again they shift the goals posts to requiring you to spend a whopping $1,600 USD or be forced to buy a massively cut down card.  It's a huge middle finger to PC enthusiasts, same as AMD's 7900 XT which also represents a huge price hike for AMD's 2nd best GPU.

Yes the 4080 is faster than the 3090 Ti but it'd be a joke if it weren't.

2)  The 3080 Ti was heavily criticized for it's pricing to begin with.  It's not really a good argument to justify 4080 pricing.  The 4080 has less shader cores and TMUs but more cache.  Don't think I ever remember a regression in GPU resources at the same price that has ever gone down well.  If you look at how many cores the 4090 has, it really puts it into perspective how little Nvidia is giving you for that price.

3)  The market for Nvidia cards is terrible.  You can find AMD cards for "cheap" (relatively speaking) brand new.  A 6900 XT can be found for $700 brand new.  Even then IMO that's overpriced.  Retail pricing of Nvidia cards right now is a complete joke.  In either case it's no excuse for the pricing of the 4000 series.  If you haven't somehow learned this lesson through the pandemic, don't bother refreshing pages or hoping for a good deal.  Just stop caring and spend more time gaming or doing other things.  Turns out that anything from a 970 or faster plays most games exceedingly well.  That way you can actually game instead of being gamed by Nvidia.  Running the rat race isn't worth the aggravation.



> Yes - it's very justified for companies to spike their prices. nVidia isn't some charity organization intended to give back to the community. They are here to make money and please the investors first and foremost. If that means increasing the prices dramatically due to numerous reasons, such as: extremely high demand, shortage of chips in the industry, increased prices of the workforce, materials, development process and shipment, no competition, and purely because they can - they will do it.



No inflationary factors are the cause of this price increase, it far outstrips any measure of inflation.  FYI the chip shortage has been over for some time now.  We are in a chip glut right now and foundries announced they are scaling back production as a result.  These companies keeping prices high despite the drop in costs are just cashing in.  You aren't making a compelling argument here for Nvidia, merely highlighting what has angered so many people as prices for them have skyrocketed across the board.  Greedy companies will hopefully get their comeuppance.



> This problem won't be fixed just because _xxx_insert_username_here_xxx_ can't afford a product, or thinks a private company is doing "unethical" things. They have enough customers without them, they've done their research. It being sold out very quickly just proves it they were not wrong.



A product being sold out doesn't say anything of the number of units sold.  Modern electronic launches are designed to sell out, regardless of units sold.  It drives sales, brand desirability, and allows prices to be pushed higher as FOMO kicks in.  Your comment is a good example of how you've been manipulated to believe a product is desirable by assuming sold out = high sales.



> There isn't a shortage?



That should have been obvious given that fabs are cutting back production due to a huge drop in demand.



> That's the sad truth, yes. Do you foresee this changing anytime soon and GPUs going back to their low prices?



The world is entering a recession so if prices stay high the PC platform will hemorrhage marketshare to console.  Heck even without the recession the prices are crazy.  At that point it won't matter much how much you dump on your GPU, we'll be back to the xbox 360 days where games are designed for console first and your overpriced metalic paperweight of a GPU won't be good for much other than fighting the low effort optimization the devs put into the PC version.  High prices have consequences, the vast majority of PC gamers reside at $300 and below.



> If AMD made truly competitive cards we wouldn't be having this discussion right now and everyone would be happy



First, AMD does make competitive cards.  Anyone saying otherwise is drinking the Nvidia kool-aid.  Second, you assume that prices would somehow lower if AMD had better GPUs.  No, they wouldn't.  AMD would 100% price their GPUs according to the max people would be willing to pay, same as they do in the CPU market.  AMD and Nvidia don't competete on price, hence why AMD GPU's MSRP being very close to Nvidia.  The market is better described as a Duopoly today, regardless of AMD's competitiveness.



> As someone who isn't fully invested into the fine details, this doesn't tell me much.
> I am looking at the end results - how much FPS am I getting? How does it compare to other things on the market?
> If it's an 128-bit or 256-bit doesn't matter all that much to me, as long as the final result is good.
> Do you mind explaining why this one is bad?



Follow this logic to it's conclusion.  If you only focus on the FPS and ignore the details, that logic leads you to ever increasing GPU prices while you are functionally getting less for your money.  Eventually you'd be priced out of the market and then you'd understand the fallacy of thinking like this.  This is why people reference things like die size, core count, relative performance to the rest of the GPU stack, ect.  You teach Nvidia that you'll pay any price without thinking that you too in fact have a price which you won't pay.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Why does everyone hate the 4080?​


I don't. Not a fan of the power requirements and heat output, but otherwise I think is a great GPU.



erocker said:


> RTX 3080 MSRP $699+
> RTX 4080 MSRP $1200+
> 
> That much increase in one generation... Sorry but you have to have more money than sense to purchase this card. Seriously, it makes more sense to just buy the 4090 at this point. The 4080 isn't going to give you what you want at 4k and there's plenty of cheaper offerings that are more than enough for 1440p.


Ok, yeah that's a good point. Prices suck!


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

erocker said:


> it makes more sense to just buy the 4090 at this point


But.. It doesn't. Because the 1,599$ MSRP of the 4090 is just an imaginary number at this point.
First of all, many 3rd party companies sold it for more than that.
Second, the actual current price of a new 4090 is 2,080$ - unless I am gravely mistaken and someone out there does sell it for less. Would appreciate a link.
No one is actually selling them for that price, so whether the MSRP was 1$ or 50,000$ makes no difference right here and right now.
As it stands, the 4090 is 811$ more than I had paid for the 4080.



erocker said:


> The 4080 isn't going to give you what you want at 4k


Cyberpunk is honestly the most demanding one on the list, and even that is sitting at a nice 56 FPS.
I won't be a complete graphics slot (get it?) and demand full max ultra settings. I'm definitely OK with lowering it a bit.
But still, 56 FPS isn't all that bad in my opinion.
Everything else is higher than 60 FPS so.. What do you mean by that sentence?



JATownes said:


> If you've followed GPUs for long, including those fine details, you'd know that Nvidia is selling a 103 die, which is historically a xx70 series card, and charging $1200 dollars for it.


AMD and Intel have been doing the same thing for years. That's not necessarily bad, it's similar to a tick-tock model.
Another full disclosure, I'm a past Intel employee and have been responsible for verifying the programs which end up verifying the CPUs. So to say I'm not fully invested may have been a misstatement.
I definitely understand the fine details, I just haven't been following them when it comes to GPUs.
Thanks for sharing that detail though, was interesting to know 



evernessince said:


> they also reduced the shader count to such a degree that the card is no longer within striking distance of the flagship card


First of all - thank you for the lengthy comment, really appreciate it!

This intrigues me, as I've heard those claims around, but can't really understand where it's coming from.
According to Techpowerup's testing, the 4090 is a mere 25% faster than the 4080 - and that's only at 4K.
At 1080p & 1440p it is only ~5-11% faster than a 4080.
Why do people consider this to be such an enormous gap in performance? I mean - the price difference is 33%.








evernessince said:


> product is desirable by assuming sold out = high sales


I don't see it as a scheme or a manipulation of the mind, not at all. The fact is I can't get a 4090 (or even a 4080 now) at MSRP even if I wanted to.
They may be providing very few units to sellers, causing the market to dry very quickly, but that doesn't change the fact the market is dry and if I need a GPU I can't get one.
It being "desirable" doesn't matter much to me, I was just making a point saying they are gone.
Whether it's an elaborate scam or just them being greedy doesn't matter much to an end user. I either have a GPU to play on or I don't.



evernessince said:


> No, they wouldn't. AMD would 100% price their GPUs according to the max they'd be willing to pay


nVidia is a much more well-known and tursted company and they are dominating the market. Not by a bit, but by a lot.
When a new player attempts to enter the market, they make it worth while by having lower prices on things that match the performance of the competitor.
AMD has definitely been in the market for a while, but mostly at the low-medium end of GPUs, making nVidia the king of high-end and supporting the "Duopoly" you had mentioned.

I'm not saying AMD is the "nice guy" here, but they will definitely sell at better prices just to have more control over the market. it's just how it is.
And when I meant I want to see AMD as a competitor I meant GPUs that can humiliate the 4090 / 4090 Ti to come. I know AMD does well mid-range.

Yes, they'll still price them at a profitable (and even greedy) prices, but not as much as nVidia, if they can do it.

This will either force nVidia to lower their prices, or AMD to lower theirs even further if sells won't be at their desired rate.
Something will have to happen once AMD puts out an actually good GPU.
They had a TON of issues in the past, causing people like me to shun away from them, but I am definitely keeping an open mind here and willing to try an AMD card if their performace:cost ratio is better.







evernessince said:


> you are functionally getting less for your money


I'll ask you this, then.
What does "more for money" mean for you?
If it has triple the amount of VRAM / CUDA cores but the end result is lower FPS, did you get more for your money?
Just trying to understand where exactly is the issue when looking at FPS when selecitng a GPU.
I'd appreciate learning what am I missing and why things like die size, core count, etc.. matter that much over end results (FPS).


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## INSTG8R (Nov 17, 2022)

Um well here in Norway I got an email and the cheapest one they listed(Proshop) cost more than my brand new 34” OLED.  That’s bad maths…


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## erocker (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> But.. It doesn't. Because the 1,599$ MSRP of the 4090 is just an imaginary number at this point.
> First of all, many 3rd party companies sold it for more than that.
> Second, the actual current price of a new 4090 is 2,080$ - unless I am gravely mistaken and someone out there does sell it for less. Would appreciate a link.
> No one is actually selling them for that price, so whether the MSRP was 1$ or 50,000$ makes no difference right here and right now.
> As it stands, the 4090 is 811$ more than I had paid for the 4080.


You're arguing a point I really didn't make. Both cards are way overpriced for gaming cards. You don't have to justify your purchase to me or anyone else. Don't care.


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## JATownes (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> AMD and Intel have been doing the same thing for years. That's not necessarily bad, it's similar to a tick-tock model.
> Another full disclosure, I'm a past Intel employee and have been responsible for verifying the programs which end up verifying the CPUs. So to say I'm not fully invested may have been a misstatement.
> I definitely understand the fine details, I just haven't been following them when it comes to GPUs.
> Thanks for sharing that detail though, was interesting to know


What? I'm so confused.  What does the Intel arch revision/node cadence have to do with anything? 

"Verifying the programs which end up verifying the CPUs." Again, what?

Are you talking about verifying from a lithography standpoint? Binning? Most of us here are pretty tech literate, and this statement is so vague it borders on jibberish.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

JATownes said:


> What? I'm so confused.  What does the Intel arch revision/node cadence have to do with anything?
> 
> "Verifying the programs which end up verifying the CPUs." Again, what?
> 
> Are you talking about verifying from a lithography standpoint? Binning? Most of us here are pretty tech literate, and this statement is so vague it borders on jibberish.


Nevermind, scratch that. I misunderstood you.
You were saying that the 103 dies were originally used by xx70 series cards, and I had assumed 103 is the actual name of the architecture - thinking they simply took that architecture and made it better.
I now understand you meant 103 as in the specific chips within a certain architecture - i.e. Pascal / Ampere / Ada Lovelace, etc..
My bad.

My second sentence is fairly clear, though. At least it is to me, but I ain't here to discuss my past work. Moving on 



erocker said:


> You're arguing a point I really didn't make. Both cards are way overpriced for gaming cards. You don't have to justify your purchase to me or anyone else. Don't care.


I'm not justifying it, why would I need to justify something to a stranger online?
I am trying to understand your point and make a decision based on your experience.
You said it's better to buy a 4090 at this point, I argued against it. If I misunderstood your point I apologize.
If both cards are way overpriced then I honestly don't know how to continue discussing this.
I guess the answer is "wait". Alright.

*To wrap up this post:
I've decide to cancel one of the orders of the 4080 and wait for the 7900 XTX. If it disappoints, I'll just wait another damn year and see what'll happen to GPU prices. Sigh.
I'll discuss this with the person I had bought the 2nd GPU for  and try to convince them to give it up and wait for the 7900 XTX as well.

Thank you very much to all of you who were actually useful and trying to help and educate me.
Greatly appreciate the assistance!*


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## Hyderz (Nov 17, 2022)

your title thread is why does everyone hate the rtx 4080?
i dont think people actually hate the card and how it performs, people hate the pricing of it.. 
$1199 is alot of money no matter how you look at it...


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## R-T-B (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.


Someone wasn't paying much attention.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Someone wasn't paying much attention.


I wasn't in the US when the 30xx series was launched and I have no idea what was going on here at the time. What I said is still valid, just doesn't apply to the US.
GPUs were always extremely expensive in my home country, so it probably didn't affect us as much.
Sorry I had failed to mention this before.


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## ratirt (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.
> The 4080 is much closer to the 3080 Ti in terms of CUDE Cores and VRAM, and then 3080 Ti was released at the exact MSRP of 1,199$ as the 4080.
> I assume the 4080 12GB was intended to be the "real" 4080, and the 4080 16GB the 4080 Ti? If nVidia would have simply called the 4080 16GB version a "4080 Ti" would people not be as pissed as they are?
> The current market is awful, allowing nVidia to basically do whatever they want. Reality check, "courtesy" of pcpartpicker:
> ...


With that logic, in 5 years time you will be paying $2500 for the same tier of GPU. You buy faster card for more cash. It is called stagnation. You get 2 times faster card for which you have to pay double the price. The amount you get for your money has not changed thus no improvement.

3090 Ti price was ludicrous. That is because this one was the top tier card you could have bought. So obviously the margins were low due to huge die and yields were not there. So the company charges more since these are hard to produce and the price to produce them is very high.
4080 on the other hand are not that big. Half of what the 3090ti die size is. You should not take the 3090ti's price into account for the 4080 pricing.
The pricing for the 3000 series was screwed and that shit started from Turing.
Now if you look closer, the 4090 is twice as fast as 3080. What about the price? Twice as much?
3080 MSRP $699, 4090 MSRP $1599 that is more than a half. Where is value for you? There isn't one.
It does not matter what you want to call the cards. the 4090 can be called 4070 but that makes no difference. you would still pay twice as much for double the 3080's performance.

BTW. People do not hate the 4080 but instead they hate NV pricing for the card which is very bad and not talking about it or point it out would have been even worse.


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## The King (Nov 17, 2022)

Steve from Gamers Nexus says it best in his review. MEH!


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## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> But.. It doesn't. Because the 1,599$ MSRP of the 4090 is just an imaginary number at this point.
> First of all, many 3rd party companies sold it for more than that.
> Second, the actual current price of a new 4090 is 2,080$ - unless I am gravely mistaken and someone out there does sell it for less. Would appreciate a link.
> No one is actually selling them for that price, so whether the MSRP was 1$ or 50,000$ makes no difference right here and right now.
> ...


Fellings play a major play in this game.
It is a very much emotional decision that for many reflect highly about their own self.

Plus people tend to stick to tier naming more than the company who make the product and decided the name.

Big companies exploit those heumen quality to the max by the help of PR department. People anger and hate when feel exploit.

Now that anger found itself a target, a symbol, in the form of 4080 16GB. By all standard 4080 price too much but from the name xx8x you expect to hold some value vs xx9x. This time there is no value- 25% pref uplifted for 25% more $. Zero value.

Add to that the 4080 12GB incident, another clear story of zero value as above and understand why the rage is on. It is about all the big capitalism companies business practice of exployment, not about 4080.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 17, 2022)

The King said:


> Steve from Gamers Nexus says it best in his review. MEH!


Performance, sure, value? Not so much…



Dirt Chip said:


> Fellings play a major play in this game.
> It is a very much emotional decision that for many reflect highly about their own self.
> 
> Plus people tend to stick to tier naming more than the company who make the product and decided the name.
> ...


Well said!


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## wolf (Nov 17, 2022)

INSTG8R said:


> Performance, sure, value? Not so much…


Even Digital Foundry (who I hear constant criticism for being super mega Nvidia shills) multiples times over the course of the review video say that the pricing isn't right, and go in depth into why it's priced badly, I was actually shocked just how many times Richard said it again and again, good. I'm not sure what more OP wants here, the press agree, the users in the know agree, but there's this constant doubling down on why it's priced right. I can't really be bothered writing an essay about it.


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## AsRock (Nov 17, 2022)

The King said:


> Steve from Gamers Nexus says it best in his review. MEH!



Sounded like he called it Meh ( due to pricing ), don't stop it from being a good performer.


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## evernessince (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> This intrigues me, as I've heard those claims around, but can't really understand where it's coming from.
> According to Techpowerup's testing, the 4090 is a mere 25% faster than the 4080 - and that's only at 4K.
> At 1080p & 1440p it is only ~5-11% faster than a 4080.
> Why do people consider this to be such an enormous gap in performance? I mean - the price difference is 33%.



The best example of the raw performance of the 4090 might be VR, where you see a 70%+ boost in performance over the 3090 Ti: https://babeltechreviews.com/rtx-4090-performance-45-games-vr-pro-apps-benchmarked/

TPU's 4K performance number was bottlenecked by their CPU choice.  Heck even if they had used a stronger CPU, no CPU on the market can run the 4090 full speed at 4K in many games.  This is in part due to it's performance and in part due to the additional driver overhead noted in TPU's review.  In non-CPU bound scenarios, the 4090 should be between 30 - 46% faster than the 4080.

You can't be using 1080p and 1440p as examples when comparing absolute performance of these cards as in many games performance is CPU limited, not GPU limited.  As CPUs become more powerful, the gap between the 4090 and 4080 will likely increase.

Realistically Nvidia priced the 4080 and 4090 to provide similar performance per dollar and that's not a good thing given most folks don't like flagship pricing. The logic up until now has been that the crazy flagship pricing was fine so long as it didn't affect the rest of the GPU stack.  Of course that's not the only reason as I explained above.



Omga4000 said:


> nVidia is a much more well-known and tursted company and they are dominating the market. Not by a bit, but by a lot.
> When a new player attempts to enter the market, they make it worth while by having lower prices on things that match the performance of the competitor.
> AMD has definitely been in the market for a while, but mostly at the low-medium end of GPUs, making nVidia the king of high-end and supporting the "Duopoly" you had mentioned.
> 
> ...



No, AMD has been making high-end GPUs for awhile.  You are gravely mistaken in saying they mostly dealt in low to mid range cards.  Go lookup AMD's (and formally ATI) older cards and the corresponding reviews.

You said AMD is not competitive but benchmarks clearly show that they are.  Whether Nvidia is dominating or "trusted" is subjective and not really a reply to that.  Ask Nvidia shareholders, 970 owners, or AIBs that have to put up with Nvidia's shenanigans including things like the GeForce Partner Program that Nvidia had to pull away from due to blowback if they are "trusted".  Nvidia's entire strategy since the 2000 series has been to exploit their customers and partners for maximum wealth, why in the world would you trust them?  Every company that has ever worked with Nvidia has come back with a negative impression, just ask Linus Torvalds.

If the AMD issues in the past dissuade you then why are the space invader artifacting with the 2000 series, cards being bricked by a driver bug brought forward via New World with the 3000 series, and now the current kerfuffle with the 4090 and 4080 (given it has the exact same connector) not an issue?  It's fine to point out prior issues with AMD but should I also bring a list of just recent issues with Nvidia?  Heck it took Nvidia 6 months to fix VR stuttering just recently.  I have cards from both brands and people tend to overblow issues from both sides.  I almost never have an issue with either.  What I do see is a lot of people on the Nvidia side very quick to forget the issues Nvidia does have.  It's people defending their purchase and the larger the price tag the more people feel the need to do so.  This has been proven in multiple studies.

AMD or Nvidia haven't really competed on price since the 1000 series.  Nowadays they price around each other, not against each other.  Why would they get into a price war when they can both maintain margins?  You can already gain marketshare by offering slightly better value or a slightly better product.  There's no need for offering customer outstanding value, especially when they'll then have to top that outstanding value next generation.  Better to give customers as little as possible at as high a cost as possible.  That's the perspective AMD and Nvidia are looking from.  The only thing that might change that is overarching market conditions that force them to lower prices.  Hopefully a recession is just that.


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## Calenhad (Nov 17, 2022)

I agree with most other posters here, that the 4080 is overpriced compared to what it offers. Plenty of good reasons have been posted above.

But I need to address a couple bonkers claims in this thread:



JATownes said:


> If you've followed GPUs for long, including those fine details, you'd know that Nvidia is selling a 103 die, which is historically a xx70 series card, and charging $1200 dollars for it.
> 
> Some of us into the fine details still miss the full 100 series dies, which us lowely enthusiasts can't feasibly get our hands on anymore.



You have conveniently skipped the fact that: RTX2080 was a *04 die, GTX1080 was a *04 die, and GTX980 was a *04 die. You have to go back to the GTX780 to find a top tier die in a *80 product, which was released back in 2013. And that die was numbered 110, because Nvidia was always good with numbers.

In fact, Nvidia have never had a *03 die before (I stopped counting at the 200-series).

To further complicate things neither 20- or 30-series had any product using a *00 die. They both started at *02's.

So, just going by die numbers is a flawed argument.



evernessince said:


> You are paying $3.166 USD per mm2 with the 4080
> 
> You are paying $1.275 USD per mm2 with the 3070



WHAT? Repeat after me: Size does not matter! This is like saying 100 grams of apples should cost the same as 100 grams of steak, because they share the same weight.

If you want to count dollar per something physical, at least pick something meaningful. Such as transistor count.


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## W1zzard (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I've decide to cancel one of the orders of the 4080 and wait for the 7900 XTX. If it disappoints, I'll just wait another damn year and see what'll happen to GPU prices. Sigh.
> I'll discuss this with the person I had bought the 2nd GPU for and try to convince them to give it up and wait for the 7900 XTX as well.


dont do that .. if you can afford a product, enjoy it, don't listen to others. it's your money, you worked for it, so you can spend it in any way you want


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## defaultluser (Nov 17, 2022)

its not so bad in-context because   it uses a much smaller die size than 4090, its still price withi 40 percent of the big boy  ;in the past, cards with such a cut have typicality been a 2: 1 RATIO

1080 ti (102) to 1080 (104)  yields a 35  percent performance cut  for 60 percent lower price (
2 to 1 ratio in performance per dollar

even though Ada uses one more die,the one used by 4080 is the exact same configuration  as  p104 used by 1080 yet you still get 2:1 PERFORMANCE/DOLLAR RATUI


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## qubit (Nov 17, 2022)

I remember the good old days when one could buy the next gen product of the same tier* for the same price as the old product and reap the benefits of the performance improvement. At the same time, the old product was heavily discounted until it sold out.

*eg 3080 v 3090 where the new model was the same price as the old model and the old one discounted. I'm just making up the model numbers here to illustrate the point.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

I think its really simple. Patience is running thin and this x80 is yet another card that won't hit any kind of volume markets. Its just priced out of it. They can drop price, sure. They can slot in more cards under and above it, sure. But the 4080 today is what we have, and it does not move the market anywhere. Its complete stagnation, in fact its worse, its making the overall offering _worse, _effectively lowering perf/$. That is unusual, and a break from the norm.

I'm still on Pascal, and honestly, there hasn't been much progress in perf/$ since. Only regression. The only way you can defend there has been any meaningful progress (making an upgrade... well... not obscene) is if you consider your RT frames valuable. But that, too, is regression in perf/$. IMHO that regression isn't worth what's gained in image quality, not even by a long shot. I have 1,5K on the shelf here to waste on computer parts. I don't jump on this, and I never will, and that's with a 1080 that is getting long in the tooth at 3440x1440. I'm still much happier dialing down settings and accepting lower FPS, than wasting cash on current offerings. That's the market doing its job then... but its still annoying.

And why are people outraged and shitting all over Nvidia? Because team green has absolutely no limit on the greedy practices; sure, companies are in it to make money. But excess is excess, and this is excessive. If these margins are combined with fantastic products priced competitively, everyone is winning. But they're not.

One might start to think Nvidia is actively destroying a market, and desires a move to a different one. Enterprise/datacenter. Even if they aren't, it sure feels that way.


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## The King (Nov 17, 2022)

AsRock said:


> Sounded like he called it Meh ( due to pricing ), don't stop it from being a good performer.


Does not matter how it performs if its not priced right.  The title ask why the hate? Its because of the pricing. So that answers the OP question.

Steve explains in depth why when he gave the example of the CPU market and how crazy fast CPUs have gotten but not priced like crap.
This point was made very clear in the video.

Pricing at the end of the day plays an "important" part of any consumer product value and this offers very poor value thus the hate from reviewers and consumers.


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## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> I think its really simple. Patience is running thin and this x80 is yet another card that won't hit any kind of volume markets. Its just priced out of it. They can drop price, sure. They can slot in more cards under and above it, sure. But the 4080 today is what we have, and it does not move the market anywhere. Its complete stagnation, in fact its worse, its making the overall offering _worse, _effectively lowering perf/$. That is unusual, and a break from the norm.


Yep. It seems that NV 'boiled the frog' too fast this time. It already backlash with 4080 12GB, hopefully the same will happen with 4080 16GB.
I give it a low chance but one can still freally dream.


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## Arkz (Nov 17, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> dont do that .. if you can afford a product, enjoy it, don't listen to others. it's your money, you worked for it, so you can spend it in any way you want


They could, and then regret it afterwards. I'd personally wait for AMDs cards to come out before making a decision.


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## TissueBox (Nov 17, 2022)

I think the chief problem is that value has historically and consistently went up for most generations of the xx80 cards with the exception of Turing/RTX 2xxx.

For example, the 3080 was 66.7% faster than the 2080 at 4k and was $100 less.
The 1080 was 69.4% faster than the 980 at 4k and was 9%-27% more expensive (AIBs $599, FE $699).
The 980 was 31.6% faster than the 780 at 4k and was $100 less.
The 780 was 26.6% faster than the 680 at 1600p and was 30% more expensive. (This was from the same architecture when AMD didn't have a response for the entire 6xx generation, 680 was GK104 and 780 was GK110)
The 680 was 29.8% faster than the 580 at 1600p and was the same price.
The 580 was 16.3% faster than the 480 at 1600p and was the same price.

For most generations, value has gone up substantially because performance went up while price went up less or remained the same. Having a 1:1 ratio for price increase % and performance increase % isn't really something that me, or a lot of people, get excited for. This situation reminds me of the 6xx and 7xx generation because the competition wasn't there so Nvidia could charge whatever they wanted. Thankfully AMD is coming around sooner rather than later this time.


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## INSTG8R (Nov 17, 2022)

Arkz said:


> They could, and then regret it afterwards. I'd personally wait for AMDs cards to come out before making a decision.


This! because we know the pricing is better all round. Just have to wait to see how it competes with it.


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## c2DDragon (Nov 17, 2022)

Price & Power Consumption.

Half the people on Earth say to use less energy to save the planet, the other half build power angry shits with insane price, there is even a part of those who have fun using tons of fuel launching rockets in space for their own profit.

I don't say I care this much for the planet that I use a bicycle and all but I'm quite sure efforts can be done to avoid having computer components using so much power Oo What will it be in 5 years ? 1200W for the graphic card only ?


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## Magic Cube (Nov 17, 2022)

My opinion about regarding RTX 4080 is that it is just too expensive. Yes performance is good, but still no thank you. Other thing I don't like and didn't like in earlier 3000-series is the power consumption->heat these cards produce. Also I haven't seen really interesting/useful use of raytracing yet. When cheaper cards can run it atleast 60FPS in every game. Maybe then I am interested for now it is just meh. 

I am still using GTX 1080, but I don't play games like I did years ago. So these cards are not targeted to me.

In future: 7-Slot gpu with 1200W power consumption with it's own built in/or external power supply.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

JATownes said:


> And this is why you're not upset about the price, and that's fine. Some of us are fully invested into the fine details, and we know what die is being sold, and care about the memory bandwidth.  Some of us aren't just consumers, we're enthusiasts.
> 
> If you've followed GPUs for long, including those fine details, you'd know that Nvidia is selling a 103 die, which is historically a xx70 series card, and charging $1200 dollars for it.
> 
> Some of us into the fine details still miss the full 100 series dies, which us lowely enthusiasts can't feasibly get our hands on anymore.


The fine details are not what you're saying, unfortunately

History lesson from Kepler onwards (they had a completely different SKU structure <fermi):

- Nvidia was selling *GK104 *at the top end with Kepler, the 670 and 680; dual GPU GK104 even with the $999,- GTX 690.
- Kepler Refresh/pre-refresh brought Titan as the 100 chip. Stiff competition from AMD pushed them to release 780ti and 780, cut down Titans (*GK110*).
- Maxwell sold *GM204 *as a 970 and 980, a highly competitive chip with a famous 500MB of slow memory on the poor man's version. And *GM200-310 *appeared as a cut down Titan in the Geforce family (about 10% less shaders and still 6GB, exceeding the norm in the market on every aspect with great clocking, making it a long lasting chip).
- Pascal sold *GP104*'s as an x70 and x80 and *GP102 *(_first 102_, normalization of a cut down 'pro' chip in Geforce stack) for the 1080ti. Again, the strongest pre-RT offerings and a continuation of what was great about Maxwell, albeit with a somewhat higher price point. Still, the price increase was easily offset by the massive perf jump and perf/w gain. Also, boost was 'perfected' here, and punched way above its weight.
- Turing was the same stack order but additional RT pushed several other metrics to stagnation: perf/w, perf/$ most notably. Cards saw their first TDP increase in the stack since many years. They also saw a double time delay from the past gen in release date. New norms were set.
And then the 'trouble' starts.
- Ampere: uses *GA104* had to be relegated to an x60 (!!!) ~ x70ti tier. *GA106 *appears from x60 (yeah... lol, its a mess) down to 3050, while there are also 3050's with an even smaller *GA107*. Lots of crossovers like that in the stack, making it clear Samsung yields were absolute shite and the node not great. Power consumption jumped. Cards got bigger. *GA102* presented a handicapped set of products with very low VRAM, and had to be used in the 3080 already, instead of just historical x80ti 'top tier' single GPU, and only with more mature node capacity did they produce higher VRAM versions throughout the stack.
- Ada: uses *AD102 *for x90 only; uses *AD103* for x80 16GB only; uses *AD104 for a whole range of lower tiers starting at x70. *This is the second gen where Nvidia needs to stretch further in their SKU count, not adding stuff on the bottom end (106's, 107's etc.), but rather on the top end. And that is _on top of a very good node shrink._ This is the first time in GPU history, if I recall, where such a thing has happened; its inevitably going to cause more strain on margin, but Nvidia prices so obscenely, that they can _still_ improve margins on this. That is, if they actually sell.

Seeing the facts like this, its easy to see Nvidia has been diving into a hole since RT was implemented, and needs more spacing/more SKUs in the stack to keep it afloat. More SKUs increases risk and makes the stack more vulnerable to competition, because they are tied to different chips for different products, leading to inefficiency or some chips just getting pushed out of the competitive range. We already saw a version of the 4080 get axed because of exactly that squeeze. With the above history we can understand why that happened: _they're supposed to run an x80 card on their *104.*_

Will Nvidia survive this in the end? Nobody can tell; but its clear the stack order 'escalates' and they need tons of measures and adjustments to keep it going, and we're getting less happy with the results.


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## Chomiq (Nov 17, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> dont do that .. if you can afford a product, enjoy it, don't listen to others. it's your money, you worked for it, so you can spend it in any way you want


I believe this type of logic is what actually got us into the "4080 is $1200" territory.


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## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Fellings play a major play in this game.
> It is a very much emotional decision that for many reflect highly about their own self.
> 
> Plus people tend to stick to tier naming more than the company who make the product and decided the name.
> ...


I want to copy past my post from other thred that I find very connecte:

I found a different way out of the upgrade limbo- I waited long enough now that I don't even bother with modern AAA and really don't care about that rat race. I suggest everyone to try- it is very liberating. As NV did, push the un-buy bottom, stick to it for 5 years or so and the magic will begin. And I haven't giving up on gaming at all, not for a day.
I keep my good old faithful 970GTX and play whatever free game EPIC, STEAM or so send me. Many good "old" but new to me titles are still keeping me busy very happily.
You can say that NV\AMD business practice left me no choice or shoved me in that direction and maybe it is true, but in the end they don't see my money and that what's count.
I don't see any productive way to make a change except make the call not to upgrade or to propone it as much as you can. And that practice is DOA because most people don't have the patience to wait- gaming is filling a very important need to them.
I know that and I know that trying to change that very human nature is to battle windmills. It is their escapism and aiming at a long range goal, while sacrificing today, is not a possibility.
Unless united under a very strong symbol, and no such symbol is around, the change will not come from forums like this or from YouTube channels.
Only fierce competition will help.

By un-linking your-self from the hardware you run- that is not feeling crippled by a 'cut-down' GPU, obsolete by having 'outdated motherboard IO', self giving up by compromising on eye candy setting, being fulld by having 'fack e-cores' and most importantly not playing the red vs blue vs green love affair game- I can quite freally choose just what is right for me in the time that's right for me.

A fun fact: Just yesterday I ordered my next system that I've been working on for the past 2 years, mainly by waiting for the right parts for me to become. A nice video editing machine based on 13900k and 64GB DDR5 that will replace my current "dirt sheep" i5-2400 with 16GB DDR3 (I managed to skipped ddr4 and pcie4 altogether, yey). The 970GTX will stay for the time being, until a suitable canidae will show itself, hopefully in 2023 but I'm in no hurry.


And now I will add:
Know this:
If you buy into buliving, trusting and counting on a global company that is listed on a stock exchange in capitalist orianted market- than you are about to get disappointment, frustration, anger and hate sooner or later.
Any attempt to "gain" their trust or favor by "supporting" their product in doomed to failure.
Dont be loyal to a brand, product or tier structure from those companies. It is fundamentally different from supporting a small to medium local company. The language those big tech company are speaking is different from the language common consumer talks.
What many express with the 4080 16GB price is a resoult of counting on the past (getting better value with lower tier products) as a promise for tomorrow. Don't bulive those promises (if exist at all, maybe it is only the person imagination making those promises up) these companies. They own you nothing.
In a deeper sens, people are feeling that they are being denied on a $$$ basis from the thing that they think they are entitled to and the one that deny it from them it is the tech company they are so loyal to. Like getting dumped by the person you love.
By not being able to purchase the new "I-am-entitled-to-it" stuff one might feel he is a lesser person in some way.

So my suggestion to sum it up to whoever cares:
1- Don't be friend with any global company that is listed on a stock exchange in capitalist oriented market.
2- Delay as much as you can any hardware purchase and when you buy- buy purely based on *your spacific need at that time* without *any* brand loyalty considerations or future promises.
3- Understand the the hardware in your computer say nothing about you personally.
4- Accept that the current value-is-getting-worse-gen-to-gen situation will continue and will be even worse from year to year. Adapt your buying habits accordingly. The sooner the better.
5- Make love in your heart, Not war.


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## wolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> I'm still on Pascal, and honestly, there hasn't been much progress in perf/$ since. Only regression.


I went from a 1080 to a 3080, $1139 AUD at launch for the 1080, and $1399 AUD at launch for the 3080. The problem was buying the 3080 at msrp. Looks like nvidia doesn't want to make that 'mistake' again, so hopefully people voting with their wallets sends a message, imo it clearly already is. 


Vayra86 said:


> sure, companies are in it to make money. But excess is excess


I dread to see how AMD would price in the top spot lol, but over the years we've seen tastes of it, the benefit of playing second fiddle is doing slightly less greedy things and copping bugger all of the heat for it. 

In any case, my gut feel is that AMD'S launch will severely impact 4080 sales, the 4070ti(?) will have to have a drop to $800 USD at a minimum, and hopefully the 4080 to $1000 at a minimum, or replaced with a different SKU to try and save face lol. 

What do we think out of these two hypotheticals? 

4080Ti is a maxed out AD103
4080Ti is a more cut down AD102, and the 4090Ti launches as a maxed out AD102


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## P4-630 (Nov 17, 2022)

It's the price...


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## Lei (Nov 17, 2022)

Because 4090 blows it away. And is just 30% more expensive
@Omga4000


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## Kissamies (Nov 17, 2022)

Way overpriced when thinking about its segment. Cut that price to half and it's a good product.


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## BSim500 (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I've been seeing everyone BASHING on the 4080, honestly, for not apparent reason. The main argument is: The 3080's MSRP is 699$, the 4080 is 1199$.
> 
> Now here's my (logical?) counter-argument:
> 
> ...


People are more criticising nVidia's broken logic of _"we made it +70% faster so pay +70% more"_ which is bad enough for one generation, but when compounded from one generation to the next, ends up completely divorced from reality of the history of computing (improved perf / $ due to progress).

Reality check : If you took an early nVidia GPU say the $125 1999 RivaTNT 2, then applied recent nVidia pricing logic consistently to each generation from its replacement GeForce 256 to now, the fair market value of a modern GPU that's tens of thousands of times faster would be between $1.5m-$3.5m based on either "+70% more $ per +70% fps" or _"$125 + 70% annual compound price increases sustained for 20 years"_. Does that sound sane to you? It's less the GPU itself and more people are bashing nVidia's recent weird attempts to rewrite history of _"it's entirely normal for things to get much faster than they get more expensive, it's called 'progress'_ _and applies to every component except for nVidia_ _GPU's_". If people were fine with $699 3080's and $1199 4080's, how many generations do you think that can be sustained? $2050 RTX 5080's? $3530 RTX 6080's? $6,050 RTX 7080's? $10,380 RTX 8080's? $17,800 RTX 9080's? $30,500 RTX 10080's? There's obviously going to be a hard crash down to earth somewhere and not a moment too soon...


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been seeing everyone BASHING on the 4080, honestly, for not apparent reason.
> The main argument is: The 3080's MSRP is 699$, the 4080 is 1199$. nVidia is a greedy company.
> ...


You do you.

To me too expensive, but if you want affirmation it'll be along shortly, Nvidia has it's fan's.

It being sold out quickly means their MSRP yet again is delusional and set up initially as a troll low initial release price that's going up-uo-up in 3,2,1 now

An arssssse tactic they've done the last two generations.

Where have you been hiding mars


----------



## Outback Bronze (Nov 17, 2022)

Lei said:


> 4090 blows it away.



RTX 4090 Owner Hits Nvidia With Lawsuit Over Melting 16-pin Connector | Tom's Hardware (tomshardware.com)

Literally.

Yes, I agree the 4080 is a bit tough on the wallet but it's a nice performing card. Between the 4080 and 4090 Id actually lean towards the 4080 as it still performs admirably but at 2/3rds the cost of a 4090 and uses less juice.

But I'm still gona wait for AMD on their cards to make a more informed decision.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

wolf said:


> I went from a 1080 to a 3080, $1139 AUD at launch for the 1080, and $1399 AUD at launch for the 3080. The problem was buying the 3080 at msrp. Looks like nvidia doesn't want to make that 'mistake' again, so hopefully people voting with their wallets sends a message, imo it clearly already is.
> 
> I dread to see how AMD would price in the top spot lol, but over the years we've seen tastes of it, the benefit of playing second fiddle is doing slightly less greedy things and copping bugger all of the heat for it.
> 
> ...


Yeah... when that 3080 was announced I got all excited, only to learn it carried only 10GB later. That won't last me like this 1080 does with its 8GB; it will show age already come 2024-2025 I reckon. The disbalance between core and VRAM is just too large for it not to be an issue. We're in 2022 and already there are some outliers where you see this. That problem only becomes bigger if you play modded stuff.

So... while MSRP might be close or samey, and perf/$ might seem to increase, it really didn't if you take a longer look. I calculate over the total cost of ownership (not meticulously, but roughly) and I expect cards to live second lives as either great resellers (try selling a 10GB card five years from now; the norm is already moving to 12~16GB for that perf level!) or as useful cards in another system. I reckon a 3080 will end up in the latter only. Just not worth selling at some point.

Of course the comparison isn't completely fair if we consider the market/mining developments, but still; for that slightly increased MSRP from 1080>3080 we also got a whole lot less under the hood; planned obsolescence, bigtime. For this segment of GPUs though, that's unacceptable - to me at least.

As for AMD impact... yeah I think those 899 and 999 cards are going to obliterate the 4080 16G at least, and might even nudge people into moving further up the stack. If the performance is there... they've got a highly competitive duo of cards coming, and the RT gap is completely irrelevant too; it seems Nvidia didn't gain much if anything relatively.


----------



## bug (Nov 17, 2022)

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.

A few years ago, for $1,200 I could build two(!) PCs for friends that weren't into hardcore gaming. As such, spending $1,000 on one(!) video card seems just obscene, regardless of the name on the box.
I don't hate this (hating on objects?), I just choose not to buy.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

JATownes said:


> And this is why you're not upset about the price, and that's fine. Some of us are fully invested into the fine details, and we know what die is being sold, and care about the memory bandwidth.  Some of us aren't just consumers, we're enthusiasts.
> 
> If you've followed GPUs for long, including those fine details, you'd know that Nvidia is selling a 103 die, which is historically a xx70 series card, and charging $1200 dollars for it.
> 
> Some of us into the fine details still miss the full 100 series dies, which us lowely enthusiasts can't feasibly get our hands on anymore.


Knowing about the fine ditails is one thing, an enthusiasts thing, and i`m among that group all in.
It is utterly different thing to chase the very last and best tech all year long, and i`m very very far from that I-must-have-the-best group.
You can be enthusiasts about the tech but not owne it, even when you decide to make new purchases.
Knowing the fine details can also help understandings that the most expensive- " the best" - isn't actually the best that is right for you so you are a smarter consumer.

You choose one group unrelated to the other- they are not attached in any sort except within you.


----------



## error1984 (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been seeing everyone BASHING on the 4080, honestly, for not apparent reason.
> The main argument is: The 3080's MSRP is 699$, the 4080 is 1199$. nVidia is a greedy company.
> ...


Sounds like you working for the industry. People should ignore your post full of illogical and stupid thoughts.


----------



## bug (Nov 17, 2022)

error1984 said:


> Sounds like you working for the industry. People should ignore your post full of illogical and stupid thoughts.


It's not illogical. He correctly points out that, considering available options, the 4080 is positioned reasonably. The problem is, all options are in "insane" territory. Correctly positioning something in insane territory, doesn't make it less insane.


----------



## mb194dc (Nov 17, 2022)

It's a solid piece of technology. It's just the price which is ridiculous...

During lockdown and mining such prices were more acceptable, given couldn't spend money on anything out of home....

Market has gone now and almost no one is willing to spend $1400+ As we're seeing with loads of 30xx inventory still around. 4090 in stock etc.

GPU market will properly crash over the next year imo.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Is your question real? Did you read the review here?

Basically EVERYTHING is better value than this, except for the 4090 and 3090 Ti which are the biggest cash grabs in the history of PC gaming (oh, and the 1630 which I personally consider non-existent).






Edit: Also, the 4080 as well as the 4090 represent the kind of behavior typical of Nvidia in the last few years. They do an overhyped product launch with physical products based on partially disabled GPU dies, wait for the hype train to slow down a bit, then release the "upgraded" version with the fully enabled die, which I find utterly disgusting.


----------



## Arco (Nov 17, 2022)

The more you spend, the more you save. - Ngreedia


----------



## Nike_486DX (Nov 17, 2022)

Either nvidia being too greedy, or amd failing to attract potential buyers (driver stability, poor control panel ui, not enough pr marketing etc). Because its always been the case: reds are starting to get competitive, greens do noticeable price cuts in return. We as consumers benefit from both.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Nike_486DX said:


> (driver stability, poor control panel ui, not enough pr marketing etc)


Erm, what?  AMD's drivers have been rock solid ever since the release of RDNA 2. Only the 5700 series had stability issues. Their control panel is miles ahead of Nvidia's, both in design and functionality! I'll give you the point on PR, though. AMD just can't seem to achieve the same number of wet pants during a product launch that Nvidia does for some reason. We'll see how far Nvidia can keep driving prices up before buyers start to think it's a bit too much. Personally, I think Nvidia is trying to position itself as the 500 HP Ferrari (kept in market by hype), while AMD is the 500 HP Mustang (kept in market by value).


----------



## freeagent (Nov 17, 2022)

I like the hardware, but because I am poor I hate the price.


----------



## JATownes (Nov 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Knowing about the fine ditails is one thing, an enthusiasts thing, and i`m among that group all in.
> It is utterly different thing to chase the very last and best tech all year long, and i`m very very far from that I-must-have-the-best group.
> You can be enthusiasts about the tech but not owne it, even when you decide to make new purchases.
> Knowing the fine details can also help understanding that the mose expensive- " the best" - isn't actually the right thing for you so you are a smarter consumer.
> You choose one group unrelated to the other- they are not attached in any sore except within you.


I feel like this change is affecting the entire product stack, not just the best tech.  Nvidia has moved the entire stack up in price, while keeping small the incremental performance in the hardware.  We can see this by the smaller (cheaper) dies being used in the higher priced cards.  

I avoid the best of the best due to the falloff of performance for dollar, but I like gaming on the high end.  

My last GPU cycles have seen $800 for a 1080ti, then moved to the 2080ti at $1200. That was a tough pill to swallow, but AMD had nothing to compete that generation.  Then the 3080ti, also for $1200. Decent, but not great generational improvement, but the price stayed the same.  Now enter the 4080, also priced at $1200, with a HUGE hardware gap between itself and the 4090. This leads me to believe that the 4080ti model with come in the $1400+ range.  Makes me miss the R9 290x for $400, or the 4850 at $200. 

I'm skipping this generation as I just don't see the value in it.  But as an enthusiast that's been in this hobby for decades, it's very sad to me that the cost of entry for new people entering the hobby is so high.  When the RX480 launched at $200, I thought we were entering a time of reasonable prices for entry level PC gaming again.  The market went the other way and now everything from MBs to GPUs have skyrocketed compared to a few generations ago.  That's sad to me when I'm trying to raise kids in this hobby.


----------



## wolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Yeah...      So...    to me at least.


Thanks for telling me about not buying one and why.

In terms of 10gb not enough, outside of DSR/DLDSR it's never been a constraint for me, and that's gaming at 4k120, also I'm not all that oppose to lowering the texture setting a notch as the years go on. I plan to upgrade when I can get 2x performance at a price I can agree with, which at this rate could be 2024, so 4 years and I have zero doubts the card will be fine through that, I'm also a collector, so on selling not a concern. Hard disagree on the imbalance between core and VRAM, for the powerband it occupies its very satisfactory, again it's not like the fear mongers say like 'crippled' lol, 10GB is plenty of VRAM for nice textures for a few years to come yet. I never do modded stuff either. Also hard disagree on less under the hood + planned obsolescence, the cards feature set is fantastic and VRAM tight but adequate. I also am fascinated by and love using upscaling techniques, DLSS 2.4+ and FSR 2.1+ are both excellent, especially at 4k, a net benefit to the experience for me personally, but I'd encourage anyone to use them at 4k, they also help keep VRAM needs in check. 2 years in and from my pov it's only gotten better, the fine wine drivers, it's more than paid for itself mining, runs cool and quiet and beasts through everything I throw at it running undervolted, this card if had at MSRP was one of the, if not the unicorn of the generation. From an actual ownership experience it's been and continues to be mighty impressive. It certainly has catered to what I want to get out of a Graphics card purchase and experience.

Given what you wrote, I can 100% appreciate a 3080 10GB wasn't the card for you. I bought one and I love it, it just continues to impress me.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Erm, what?  AMD's drivers have been rock solid ever since the release of RDNA 2. Only the 5700 series had stability issues. Their control panel is miles ahead of Nvidia's, both in design and functionality! I'll give you the point on PR, though. AMD just can't seem to achieve the same number of wet pants during a product launch that Nvidia does for some reason. We'll see how far Nvidia can keep driving prices up before buyers start to think it's a bit too much. Personally, I think Nvidia is trying to position itself as the 500 HP Ferrari (kept in market by hype), while AMD is the 500 HP Mustang (kept in market by value).


It's a constant regurgitated "Fact" that's elaborated on by those Nvidia owners who haven't tried AMD in a while or they would know it's wrong and the UI exceeds nvidia's dated version extremely.


----------



## dj-electric (Nov 17, 2022)

I can only say one thing. The profit margin on a pure speculation of BoM on the RTX 4080 seems incredibly high. It is more than likely that if NVIDIA needs to make it cheaper, they will make it cheaper, and not by a small amount


----------



## xtreemchaos (Nov 17, 2022)

I don't hate the 4080 Its just a incredibly strong dislike. price, TPD, ill say no more.


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## HaKN ! (Nov 17, 2022)

The RTX 4080 is a really good card but the pricing is horrible

The cheapest one in Denmark costs above 1550 USD, And people are already scalping it to earn some 50-100 USD


----------



## bug (Nov 17, 2022)

dj-electric said:


> I can only say one thing. The profit margin on a pure speculation of BoM on the RTX 4080 seems incredibly high. It is more than likely that if NVIDIA needs to make it cheaper, they will make it cheaper, and not by a small amount


I can only say one thing. Trying to deduce the profit margin solely by the BoM means nothing. It's not like those materials grow on trees (even then, you'd factor in the cost of harvesting them). There's design, prototyping, iterations that go into making a product.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

wolf said:


> Thanks for telling me about not buying one and why.
> 
> In terms of 10gb not enough, outside of DSR/DLDSR it's never been a constraint for me, and that's gaming at 4k120, also I'm not all that oppose to lowering the texture setting a notch as the years go on. I plan to upgrade when I can get 2x performance at a price I can agree with, which at this rate could be 2024, so 4 years and I have zero doubts the card will be fine through that, I'm also a collector, so on selling not a concern. Hard disagree on the imbalance between core and VRAM, for the powerband it occupies its very satisfactory, again it's not like the fear mongers say like 'crippled' lol, 10GB is plenty of VRAM for nice textures for a few years to come yet. I never do modded stuff either. Also hard disagree on less under the hood + planned obsolescence, the cards feature set is fantastic and VRAM tight but adequate. I also am fascinated by and love using upscaling techniques, DLSS 2.4+ and FSR 2.1+ are both excellent, especially at 4k, a net benefit to the experience for me personally, but I'd encourage anyone to use them at 4k, they also help keep VRAM needs in check. 2 years in and from my pov it's only gotten better, the fine wine drivers, it's more than paid for itself mining, runs cool and quiet and beasts through everything I throw at it running undervolted, this card if had at MSRP was one of the, if not the unicorn of the generation. From an actual ownership experience it's been and continues to be mighty impressive. It certainly has catered to what I want to get out of a Graphics card purchase and experience.
> 
> Given what you wrote, I can 100% appreciate a 3080 10GB wasn't the card for you. I bought one and I love it, it just continues to impress me.


It is worth revisiting what you've said here in two years time, just for perspective. If you're still on the same thoughts, great, you know you can trust them going forward. If not... adjust 

I've done that exercise way back, when I had SLI 660s. I then said never again will I ride the edge of VRAM capacities combined with a powerful GPU core perf (2GB was quickly the immediate problem for Kepler GPUs, core perf was fine; this is a history repeats issue - when I swapped the duo for a single 780ti (3GB) the difference was night and day - similar core power, 10x better gaming/frame delivery. Same thing applies to the 7970, it lasted as it did because of that 1GB extra). Note how you're already preparing in your post for little shortages of it, by saying 'texture res down np'. That proves the point right there; the balance is off; the 1080 8GB does simply not have this problem no matter your use case; core will run out of juice along with VRAM. You've spent half the post naming all the measures to 'keep VRAM in check'.

Another matter is of course whether you are _fine with that._ That's emotion.

But it is an absolute fact that from Pascal > Ampere the balance core/VRAM was changed radically, and cache improvements are most definitely not restoring it, that only counts for a subset of use cases/use of features on top. I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record...


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## freeagent (Nov 17, 2022)

On launch day 4080s were listed at 3000
Beaver bucks, they knocked 1K off and now they are “only” 2000 bucks..


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## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> It is worth revisiting what you've said here in two years time, just for perspective. If you're still on the same thoughts, great, you know you can trust them going forward. If not... adjust
> 
> I've done that exercise way back, when I had SLI 660s. I then said never again will I ride the edge of VRAM capacities combined with a powerful GPU core perf (2GB was quickly the immediate problem for Kepler GPUs, core perf was fine; this is a history repeats issue - when I swapped the duo for a single 780ti (3GB) the difference was night and day - similar core power, 10x better gaming/frame delivery. Same thing applies to the 7970, it lasted as it did because of that 1GB extra). Note how you're already preparing in your post for little shortages of it, by saying 'texture res down np'. That proves the point right there; the balance is off; the 1080 8GB does simply not have this problem no matter your use case; core will run out of juice along with VRAM. You've spent half the post naming all the measures to 'keep VRAM in check'.
> 
> ...


If you think about it, an insanely good GPU with borderline acceptable amounts of VRAM is a good way to make sure you win the hearts of reviewers while also forcing users to upgrade a couple of years down the line. The 1080 you mentioned, is great because it wasn't built with this mindset. A 3070 Ti 16 GB would have also been great, I wonder why Nvidia cancelled it (sacrasm - the above is exactly why).


----------



## bug (Nov 17, 2022)

freeagent said:


> On launch day 4080s were listed at 3000
> Beaver bucks, they knocked 1K off and now they are “only” 2000 bucks..


They're practically giving them away for free, lol


----------



## 3x0 (Nov 17, 2022)

nVidia desperately wants to be the Apple of GPUs: closed off ecosystem (Hairworks, G-sync, DLSS to name a few) and complete control of the manufacturing-to-sales line with insane pricing, with loyal fans lining up to buy the next iPhone overpriced GPU.


----------



## bug (Nov 17, 2022)

3x0 said:


> nVidia desperately wants to be the Apple of GPUs: closed off ecosystem (Hairworks, G-sync, DLSS to name a few) and complete control of the manufacturing-to-sales line with insane pricing, with loyal fans lining up to buy the next iPhone overpriced GPU.


Except that it doesn't control the manufacturing-to-sales line simply because it doesn't manufacture anything and it sells very few video cards.
As for having differentiators to along various standards... that's not something Nvidia invented, it's been around for years. Hell, when they were ahead of the game, even ATI introduced TruForm in a non-standard way. Personally, I'm not worried about these. If they catch on, they'll make their way into DX or Vulkan. If not, you can continue to safely ignore them. I mean, Witcher 3 has Hairworks. Is it a lesser game if you play it on an AMD card without Hairworks? I think not.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

JATownes said:


> I feel like this change is affecting the entire product stack, not just the best tech.  Nvidia has moved the entire stack up in price, while keeping small the incremental performance in the hardware.  We can see this by the smaller (cheaper) dies being used in the higher priced cards.
> 
> I avoid the best of the best due to the falloff of performance for dollar, but I like gaming on the high end.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree. The current times are not better in that aspect as before.
That's why I stick to my 970GTX dispite Total makeover for my main rig.

We can never have positive progress endlessly. Now come the time of stagnation and we are on the golden path to regression- very much like Intel era of 4 to 9 gen.
And just as with that Intel era, now NV makes it so very easy NOT to buy the product offered to you.
No ones life is attached to GPUs, despite some may think or feel (or try to PR that to the crowd).
Life can and will still be good without owning top notch, last gen tech.


----------



## 3x0 (Nov 17, 2022)

bug said:


> Except that it doesn't control the manufacturing-to-sales line simply because it doesn't manufacture anything and it sells very few video cards.


That's the "wants to be" part, as in in the future they aim to do that


----------



## bug (Nov 17, 2022)

3x0 said:


> That's the "wants to be" part, as in in the future they aim to do that


Oh, we have a mind-reader.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 17, 2022)

I will resume it for you:

1. Very high prices!
2. Very low generational improvement.
3. High-yield, cut down harvested chips throughout the entire stack (this includes the 4090!)
4. Due to the aforementioned situation, ample room for price increases and slot-in SKUs that perform as they should but are even more terribly priced
5. Utter disregard for previous-generation flagships and unwillingness to introduce relevant features that owners of these want, as a gesture of good will, by introducing artificial locks and making claims about requirement of new-generation hardware for them

In short, the entire Ada lineup is an insult to anyone who's been following this industry for some time. It's clearly intended as a mass-market product aimed at consumers plain and simple, not at hobbyists and much less at enthusiasts such as the TPU patronage.


----------



## HD64G (Nov 17, 2022)

Hating a product is -mildly put- stupid. But its stupidly high price made this GPU indifferent to any budget-sensible PC owner. The reaction to the marketing that nVidia is pushing through paid reviews is fairly to be strong also.


----------



## dj-electric (Nov 17, 2022)

bug said:


> I can only say one thing. Trying to deduce the profit margin solely by the BoM means nothing. It's not like those materials grow on trees (even then, you'd factor in the cost of harvesting them). There's design, prototyping, iterations that go into making a product.


NVIDIA needs no protection, their reports show copius amounts of profit. The medium sized silicon in the card next to rest of components to result in a rather mild BoM. But also tooling and design of cards (Hi, I work as a part of a PCB design team, we make boards, with chips in them) this time around could be a lot cheaper. The RTX 4080 is quite possibly NVIDIA's largest MSRP to over all cost ratio GeForce product in a long while. Again, speculatively.

The consumer back lash over the value of the RTX 4080 and the behavior of NVIDIA towards pricing its products - is - justified.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

HD64G said:


> Hating a product is -mildly put- stupid. But its stupidly high price made this GPU indifferent to any budget-sensible PC owner. The reaction to the marketing that nVidia is pushing through paid reviews is fairly to be strong also.


True. I don't hate the 4080 the same way I don't hate Ferrari. But if someone threw me one, I'd sell it straight away and buy a Mustang and a house.


----------



## nguyen (Nov 17, 2022)

Oh well, I'm having lots of fun with 4090, way overkill rasterization performance at 4K (getting 170FPS avg in Days Gone @ 4K Ultra, gonna do some reshade RTGI to make lightning look better).

Way too many salty people in forums, OP should just listen to W1zzard advice


----------



## JATownes (Nov 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> In short, the entire Ada lineup is an insult to anyone who's been following this industry for some time. It's clearly intended as a mass-market product aimed at consumers plain and simple, not at hobbyists and much less at enthusiasts such as the TPU patronage.


Very well said.  On top of the horrible value proposition, no one has even mentioned the new 16 pin power connector debacle.

This launch is just a disaster, which is so sad because Nvidia really does make great GPUs.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> I will resume it for you:
> 
> 1. Very high prices!
> 2. Very low generational improvement.
> ...


I agree except for the conclusion- I look at it from a different angle: I`m no victem of NV way of doing business and I dont feel insulted dispited being tech enthusiast for many years (ever since my Athlon 3200+ and Nvidia TNT2 GPUs). They actually made me a big favor with such high prices- my choice to avoid them has never been that easier.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Oh well, I'm having lots of fun with 4090, way overkill rasterization performance at 4K (getting 170FPS avg in Days Gone @ 4K Ultra, gonna do some reshade RTGI to make lightning look better).
> 
> Way too many salty people in forums, OP should just listen to W1zzard advice


Buy me a 4090, and maybe I'll be a bit less salty. Just because you can afford to spend way more on a graphics card than you should, it doesn't mean there aren't any budget-conscious gamers left.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Buy me a 4090, and maybe I'll be a bit less salty. Just because you can afford to spend way more on a graphics card than you should, it doesn't mean there aren't any budget-conscious gamers left.



Like, take it from my perspective - I am not exactly "budget conscious". I even like to splurge a bit. But there is a line, and I strongly feel this line has been crossed. AMD's $999 MSRP for their halo part is not only justified - it's fair, too.

The market conditions at Ampere's launch somewhat justified an $1500 GPU of the stature of the RTX 3090. But Ada introduces practically no groundbreaking components and the pressure from the COVID-19 lockdowns and cryptocurrency mining have both completely subsided, and the global strain on component supply has also greatly eased as a result. The main roadblocks remaining are within China and their social policy against Covid still in effect, and they too will resolve with time.



Dirt Chip said:


> I agree but the conclusion- I look at it from a different angle: I`m no victem of NV way of doing business and I`m dont feel insulted dispited being tech enthusiast for many years (ever since my Athlon 3200+ and Nvidia TNT2 GPUs). They actually made me a big favor with such high prices- my choice to avoid them has never been easier before.



You need to account for something, though. AMD and Intel are both businesses. If they ever close the mindshare gap, or the technical gap with NVIDIA, they will raise their prices accordingly, and NVIDIA will only have blazed the trail by normalizing this - justifying the whole process. We should rebuke these cards, but alas, people still got in line to buy 4090's anyway...



JATownes said:


> Very well said.  On top of the horrible value proposition, no one has even mentioned the new 16 pin power connector debacle.
> 
> This launch is just a disaster, which is so sad because Nvidia really does make great GPUs.



The new connector was eventually necessary, I won't be deducting too much over it, even though I still prefer and think they should have made available models with traditional 8-pin connectors, even if four of them were required. But the whole thing about them melting down just screams that the specification wasn't ready, and that it was pushed too far. Operating well under lab conditions is one thing, but with the variances in people's PSU quality, and even their AC mains' stability would obviously result in what we've seen.


----------



## dirtyferret (Nov 17, 2022)

trickson said:


> Talk about greed all them crypto miners greedy bastards! got taken to the bank to LMFAO!


I have no skin in the game with crypto but the miners don't set the prices for video cards.  They may increase the demand for them but the price is set by the chip manufactures, board partners, and online markets/sellers.  Those guys are the "greedy bastards".  Let's not forget Nvidia and AMD have a history of being sued for price fixing.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 17, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Oh well, I'm having lots of fun with 4090, way overkill rasterization performance at 4K (getting 170FPS avg in Days Gone @ 4K Ultra, gonna do some reshade RTGI to make lightning look better).
> 
> Way too many salty people in forums, OP should just listen to W1zzard advice


How about you re read the OP then figure out what the actual Ffff your reply means to it, are we debating your precious, no, pipe down epean queen.


----------



## dirtyferret (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Yes, they'll still price them at a profitable (and even greedy) prices, but not as much as nVidia, if they can do it.


AMD is just as greedy as Nvidia, they just sell different products with different demands.  Nvidia can sell their products for more because of either performance or perceived value or both.  AMD would happily (and have a fiduciary responsibility to) do the same if the tables were turned.


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## Dirt Chip (Nov 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> You need to account for something, though. AMD and Intel are both businesses. If they ever close the mindshare gap, or the technical gap with NVIDIA, they will raise their prices accordingly, and NVIDIA will only have blazed the trail by normalizing this - justifying the whole process. We should rebuke these cards, but alas, people still got in line to buy 4090's anyway...


Yep, top end stuff will keep on selling with over the top price regardless of what words will be written in here, for pretty much as long as people will need the escapism from reality (that is, eternity). I have no special dis-sympathy to NV- Intel and AMD are on the same rotten boat (yet on different areas on that boat).
But knowing the situation as it is will, hopefully, help me do better choices regarding tech purchases.


----------



## TechnoLadz (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I assume the 4080 12GB was intended to be the "real" 4080, and the 4080 16GB the 4080 Ti? If nVidia would have simply called the 4080 16GB version a "4080 Ti" would people not be as pissed as they are?


Incorrect. AD104, which the 4080 12GB was based on, would've typically either been used as a 60 or 70-class card.
This is further backed up by the 192-bit bus width on AD104. The 3080 has a 320-bit bus, 3080 Ti, 3090 and 3090 Ti has a 384 bit. The 3070 has a 256 Bit bus, and the 4080 16GB has a 256-bit bus.
The die size of AD104, which is 295mm^2 also suggests that it would've been used in a low-end GPU, as it is comparable to the die size of GA106, which is 276mm^2, and was used for 3060 and below. The only similar flagship to have a die size so small was the GTX 1080.
Also, when Nvidia posted the performance slides for the RTX 4080, it was only 25% better than the RTX 3080 in performance, and similar performance to an RTX 3080 Ti - what we would normally expect of a -70 series card. (GTX 970 ($330) = 780 Ti ($700), GTX 1070 ($349) = 980 Ti ($649), RTX 2070 Sup ($499) = GTX 1080 Ti ($699), RTX 3070 (Meant to be $499, obviously Crypto ruined that.) = RTX 2080 Ti ($1199)...)
Need any more evidence?


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 17, 2022)

Calenhad said:


> WHAT? Repeat after me: Size does not matter! This is like saying 100 grams of apples should cost the same as 100 grams of steak, because they share the same weight.
> 
> If you want to count dollar per something physical, at least pick something meaningful. Such as transistor count.


Transistor count isn't as good a metric as die size as die size is directly related to the cost of the product. Transistor count is also influenced by the area devoted to logic vs SRAM or IO.


----------



## Nike_486DX (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Erm, what?  AMD's drivers have been rock solid ever since the release of RDNA 2. Only the 5700 series had stability issues. Their control panel is miles ahead of Nvidia's, both in design and functionality! I'll give you the point on PR, though. AMD just can't seem to achieve the same number of wet pants during a product launch that Nvidia does for some reason. We'll see how far Nvidia can keep driving prices up before buyers start to think it's a bit too much. Personally, I think Nvidia is trying to position itself as the 500 HP Ferrari (kept in market by hype), while AMD is the 500 HP Mustang (kept in market by value).


For some reason the best driver for my r7 260x is 17.12.1, both in windows 7 and 10. Not the latest 22 one.  If i take a 660ti or something, or a 1060 (the most recent nvidia i had), there was no such issue, you just update the driver and see no negative results. Price/performance amd is better, thats why i am using radeon atm. But as it turned out it comes at a price.


Graphics control panel is designed to contain only the basic, minimal settings. So that developers dont spend their precious limited time trying to optimize a shitty ui control panel with "game optimizer", "upgrade advisor", and other redundant crap. This is exactly why people prefer iphones over crappy xiaomi phones. Keep it minimal, keep it essential. Users will download the additonal software if they need to.


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## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Nike_486DX said:


> For some reason the best driver for my r7 260x is 17.12.1, both in windows 7 and 10. Not the latest 22 one.  If i take a 660ti or something, or a 1060 (the most recent nvidia i had), there was no such issue, you just update the driver and see no negative results. Price/performance amd is better, thats why i am using radeon atm. But as it turned out it comes at a price.
> 
> 
> Graphics control panel is designed to contain only the basic, minimal settings. So that developers dont spend their precious limited time trying to optimize a shitty ui control panel with "game optimizer", "upgrade advisor", and other redundant crap. This is exactly why people prefer iphones over crappy xiaomi phones. Keep it minimal, keep it essential. Users will download the additonal software if they need to.


The 260X is an old card with driver support long gone. It's not relevant in a discussion about currently sold products, and current driver support.

The gimmicks like game optimizer and upgrade advisor can be easily disregarded. I don't use them, either. On the other hand, AMD's drivers include overclocking, fan speed control, undervolting, and all the fine-tuning tools that I think should be basic stuff in every driver package. AMD knows this, Intel knows this, Nvidia still forces you to use third-party software for some reason.

As for the UI, I disagree. Nvidia's version is extremely outdated, like it's straight out of a Windows 98 machine. They also seem to be cramming every new feature under the "3D settings" tab, which was fine up to a point, but it's getting overcrowded now, while other tabs barely contain any options. My complaint against AMD is that they have similar options scattered across different tabs, so it can take you a while to find what you need, but their design is top notch, in my opinion.


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## Outback Bronze (Nov 17, 2022)

Has anybody mentioned that they are pricing these accordingly so they can remove their excess 30xx stock?

Or am i wrong?


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 17, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Has anybody mentioned that they are pricing these accordingly so they can remove their excess 30xx stock?
> 
> Or am i wrong?


Your probably right but that doesn't make it Right by me.


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## Nike_486DX (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> The 260X is an old card with driver support long gone. It's not relevant in a discussion about currently sold products, and current driver support.
> 
> The gimmicks like game optimizer and upgrade advisor can be easily disregarded. I don't use them, either. On the other hand, AMD's drivers include overclocking, fan speed control, undervolting, and all the fine-tuning tools that I think should be basic stuff in every driver package. AMD knows this, Intel knows this, Nvidia still forces you to use third-party software for some reason.
> 
> As for the UI, I disagree. Nvidia's version is extremely outdated, like it's straight out of a Windows 98 machine. They also seem to be cramming every new feature under the "3D settings" tab, which was fine up to a point, but it's getting overcrowded now, while other tabs barely contain any options. My complaint against AMD is that they have similar options scattered across different tabs, so it can take you a while to find what you need, but their design is top notch, in my opinion.


for me the driver quality should be judged by the oldest cards that support it. nvidia drivers always been fine stability-wise. Not so good performance-wise (Kepler 600 and 700 series mainly). If you check the gpu popularity list on steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/, there are a lot of Maxwell based cards (2015, can be considered as old). Yea undervolting can be done via wattman, but dont let this fool you tho, its still software based. i modded the bios of the 260X so it pulls 85W instead of 120W (hawaii bios editor, works for any gcn 2 based card), and i can transfer the card into any system and it will draw 85W under load, no need to re-configure anything. Bios has been locked on modern amd/nvidias, so the only option is software profile. And for that i better use a dedicated tool, like msi afterburner. And considering that there are more nvidia cards in existence compared to amd, and the fact that amd drivers get much more criticism than nvidia's, already tells us something. Amd just fails to deliver the whole package, mainly drivers need more tweaking and optimization. If they skip all the addional bells and whistles and instead focus on the core stuff, the stability should go up.


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## blued (Nov 17, 2022)

Probably mentioned but I'll just say this... The 3080 was a huge boost over the 2080 but at same price. As with every succeeding generation, both AMD and Nvidia offered great performance increases at a lower price. It was not uncommon to see upper midrange cards beat or equal last gens flagship cards at almost half the price. The 4080 breaks this trend pretty bad.


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## Bomby569 (Nov 17, 2022)

The OP has way too much money, i would also love to buy shit ignoring what it costs. 
Also the market is awful because Nvidia make it so


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## freeagent (Nov 17, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> Has anybody mentioned that they are pricing these accordingly so they can remove their excess 30xx stock?
> 
> Or am i wrong?


Prices on 30 series are still high here, for instance my card is still listed at 950, plus 14% tax on top.. I mean a 3060 is between 500-700 plus tax still.. doesn’t seem that great to me. Mind you I had to buy my GPU with a PSU and it was like 1300 the summer before last.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> The OP has way too much money, i would also love to buy shit ignoring what it costs.
> Also the market is awful because Nvidia make it so


Said Elon Musk.

With all seriousness, though. Is that what you understood from my post?
If I had "way too much money" do you think I'd bother opening a thread and asking for people's opinion?
If you had actually read the thread you'd know I've canceled my order after the nice people of this community had helped me understand why this was a bad deal.


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## blued (Nov 17, 2022)

I'll simply add, that no matter how bad in value a GPU is, initial inventory after launch will almost always sell well. The thrill of having a new gen card that outperforms everything before it often over-rides perceived value. This exacerbated by the ridiculous pricing that everyone had to endure in last couple years, they begin to think its the 'new norm' and they are getting a good deal vs what cards were selling for during the crypto boom.


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## evernessince (Nov 17, 2022)

Calenhad said:


> WHAT? Repeat after me: Size does not matter! This is like saying 100 grams of apples should cost the same as 100 grams of steak, because they share the same weight.
> 
> If you want to count dollar per something physical, at least pick something meaningful. Such as transistor count.



First, your analogy is terrible.  An Apple and a Steak are two different things.  Comparing one GPU die to another is a for like comparison and entirely valid.

Nvidia's first GPU the STG-2000 had a transistor count of 1 million.  The 4090 has 76.3 billion.  If your logic is that price should increase with transistor count modern GPUs would be unaffordable by everyone but billionaires.



W1zzard said:


> dont do that .. if you can afford a product, enjoy it, don't listen to others. it's your money, you worked for it, so you can spend it in any way you want



Your own reviews contain a conclusion page doing just that though....

Mind you, this isn't a constructive point to this thread, you are merely side-stepping the discussion.  He is asking for advice and you are telling him to ignore the very advise he courted.

This is the kind of comment someone makes when the logical argument for buying a product is poor so they then make an emotional appeal like this.  Simply having the money doesn't mean you earned it nor does it touch upon any of the factors considered when buying the product.  It's only "do you feel like you've earned it?  Oh you do?  Then ignore what everyone else said because you feel you've earned it".  This kind of argument from emotion can be used to justify any purchase, regardless of the red flags.  Everyone wants to feel like they've earned their purchases and this argument from emotion prays on that feeling to get someone to ignore logic.

FYI if anyone had any questions of whether Nvidia is artificially keeping prices high: https://www.morningstar.com/news/ma...hen-compared-with-nvidia-this-earnings-season

Their inventory has doubled YoY.  They have $706 Million USD worth of product valued at cost (what Nvidia pays).  The actual market value of these products is closer to 1.129 billion USD.


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## Bomby569 (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Said Elon Musk.
> 
> With all seriousness, though. Is that what you understood from my post?
> If I had "way too much money" do you think I'd bother opening a thread and asking for people's opinion?
> If you had actually read the thread you'd know I've canceled my order after the nice people of this community had helped me understand why this was a bad deal.


sure, but the issue was that you bought 2 and thought it was a great deal. I'm sure lots think like you and i really can't explain that unless you have money coming out of your pockets.

Sure if you knew nothing about tech, but you clearly did.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> sure, but the issue was that you bought 2 and thought it was a great deal. I'm sure lots think like you and i really can't explain that unless you have money coming out of your pockets.
> 
> Sure if you knew nothing about tech, but you clearly did.


The short explanation:
In today's messed-up market, inflated prices and little to no stock, the 4080 at MSRP is considered a deal by anyone who doesn't care about nVidia being a greedy company and supporting the price inflation. Yes - the added cost translated directly into the performance increase and technically paying for the 4080 is the same as paying for a 3080, performance:cost ratio-wise, making it a terrible deal overall and promoting no real improvement over the generations. The sad this is this is only true for MSRP prices, which at this point are just a made-up number that doesn't mean anything because the entire market is trash.
I'm already seeing 1,200$ 4080's being sold for ~1,800$. This has basically been the case for any new card ever since the 30xx series was released.





The shorter explanation: I got really tired of waiting for prices to drop. It's been years. So I pulled the trigger only to run quickly and catch the bullet before it hit anyone.

Both have nothing to do with the amount of money I have. For all you know I have been saving for the past few years just for this.


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## AnotherReader (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> The short explanation:
> In today's messed-up market, inflated prices and little to no stock, the 4080 at MSRP is considered a deal by anyone who doesn't care about nVidia being a greedy company and supporting the price inflation. Yes - the added cost translated directly into the performance increase and technically paying for the 4080 is the same as paying for a 3080, performance:cost ratio-wise, making it a terrible deal overall and promoting no real improvement over the generations. The sad this is this is only true for MSRP prices, which at this point are just a made-up number that doesn't mean anything because the entire market is trash.
> I'm already seeing 1,200$ 4080's being sold for ~1,800$. This has basically been the case for any new card ever since the 30xx series was released.
> 
> ...


In that case, your best bet would have been to buy the 4090 at launch time. It's a much better purchase than the 4080.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> In that case, your best bet would have been to buy the 4090 at launch time. It's a much better purchase than the 4080.


That is 100% correct and I wish I had done this, but I was led to believe that the market had recovered and did not think the 40xx series would be the same as the 30xx was.
People kept saying "the market is flooded with 30xx series and prices are going down".

Not being native to the US and not knowing how the US market was during the 30xx launch, I had little experience with what was going on here.
So I trusted sources saying it will be alright. It wasn't alright and it still isn't.

Still - happy my house didn't burn down due to the 4090's faulty connection, so at least I've got that going for me


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## blued (Nov 17, 2022)

Btw, I dont think the 4080 will remain at that price for long. In due time, a few weeks perhaps it will go down to under $1k. Most likely after AMDs 7900 cards are out.

I think the same decision maker at Nv (Jensen) who came up with the brilliant idea to call a 4070 the 4080 12gb is also behind the 16gb cards pricing. And sooner or later it will dawn on him that maybe he messed up like he did with the 4070 12gb.


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## Bomby569 (Nov 17, 2022)

can't you get a used 3090ti for example.
wait for amd
the mentioned, get a 4090

lots of options, you picked the worst. There's a reason they aren't flying of the shelves


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## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Said Elon Musk.
> 
> With all seriousness, though. Is that what you understood from my post?
> If I had "way too much money" do you think I'd bother opening a thread and asking for people's opinion?
> If you had actually read the thread you'd know I've canceled my order after the nice people of this community had helped me understand why this was a bad deal.


I honestly think the approach you took in your OP, just being frank about your stance and asking in honest fashion why people think differently, is something more people should do.

We've been having a pretty open discussion because of it. The fact you even cancelled the order is a sign of a good listener, a virtue rarely seen today.

Well played, I say.


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## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Nike_486DX said:


> for me the driver quality should be judged by the oldest cards that support it.


The drivers for your 260X are bad, so they must be bad for everything that came after? Do you see why this doesn't make any sense?

Have you actually tried an RDNA 2 card? I have, and they all work flawlessly. There is no stability issue when buying a new AMD card. Period.



Nike_486DX said:


> nvidia drivers always been fine stability-wise. Not so good performance-wise (Kepler 600 and 700 series mainly). If you check the gpu popularity list on steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/, there are a lot of Maxwell based cards (2015, can be considered as old). Yea undervolting can be done via wattman, but dont let this fool you tho, its still software based. i modded the bios of the 260X so it pulls 85W instead of 120W (hawaii bios editor, works for any gcn 2 based card), and i can transfer the card into any system and it will draw 85W under load, no need to re-configure anything. Bios has been locked on modern amd/nvidias, so the only option is software profile. And for that i better use a dedicated tool, like msi afterburner. And considering that there are more nvidia cards in existence compared to amd, and the fact that amd drivers get much more criticism than nvidia's, already tells us something. Amd just fails to deliver the whole package, mainly drivers need more tweaking and optimization. If they skip all the addional bells and whistles and instead focus on the core stuff, the stability should go up.


When did I ever talk about BIOS modding? All I said was AMD and Intel allow you to fine-tune the performance characteristics of your card via their software, while Nvidia doesn't.

Personally, I never suggest anyone to BIOS mod a graphics card, but that's a different story.


----------



## Gameslove (Nov 17, 2022)

My opinion about rtx 4080 - overpriced, Germany retailer such a alternate.de prices start at 1500 € (near 1500$), and no information about a new power cable 12VHPWR stability...... Don't buy......


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> can't you get a used 3090ti for example.
> wait for amd
> the mentioned, get a 4090
> 
> lots of options, you picked the worst. There's a reason they aren't flying of the shelves


I've already commented about the used market, but basically no.
The 1st card (out of the 2 I bought) is a present, so buying a used one is not an option here.
The 2nd card which I bought for myself I just went ahead and cancelled. Waiting for the AMD series to release, hoping it doesn't suck in RT and VR.
I'm in no real rush here, but damn it I've been waiting for 4 years to buy a card. 20xx & 30xx sky-rocketed because of crypto miners and the chip shortage so I was forced out of the market at the time, and the 40xx is so far behaving similarly, if not worse due to the already inflated MSRP price.
I just want to play already 

If AMD fails to provide something good I am seriously at a loss here.



blued said:


> Btw, I dont think the 4080 will remain at that price for long. In due time, a few weeks perhaps it will go down to under $1k. Most likely after AMDs 7900 cards are out.
> 
> I think the same decision maker at Nv (Jensen) who came up with the brilliant idea to call a 4070 the 4080 12gb is also behind the 16gb cards pricing. And sooner or later it will dawn on him that maybe he messed up like he did with the 4070 12gb.


That's what I've been hearing for the past year about the 30xx series, and yet nothing had changed. They are still as high as a kite.
I definitely hope you're right, though.
I'll wait for AMD and hope for the best, fingers crossed.



Vayra86 said:


> I honestly think the approach you took in your OP, just being frank about your stance and asking in honest fashion why people think differently, is something more people should do.
> 
> We've been having a pretty open discussion because of it. The fact you even cancelled the order is a sign of a good listener, a virtue rarely seen today.
> 
> Well played, I say.


I had posted the exact same thing in other forums as well (like LTT), hoping to hear as many opinions as I can.
The sad thing is 70-80% of people just think I'm bragging about buying the cards, as if that's anything to brag about, and think my mind is all made up because I had already made the purchase and I'm trying to "justify" it. Like I have anything to prove to some random strangers on the internet. That led to mostly negative comments such as "This has to be an Nvidia sponsored post, right?" and "copium", providing basically no assistance and trying to laugh at someone who may understand this subject less than they do.
Have people never heard of cancelling a purchase or returning a product? 

The situation in this forum was better, though. Though some were still skeptical about the purpose of this thread the vast majority understood I'm here to learn and hear other people's opinion and were able to provide meaningful data that helped me make up my mind while also teaching me a thing or two (or three).


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## Vayra86 (Nov 17, 2022)

3x0 said:


> nVidia desperately wants to be the Apple of GPUs: closed off ecosystem (Hairworks, G-sync, DLSS to name a few) and complete control of the manufacturing-to-sales line with insane pricing, with loyal fans lining up to buy the next iPhone overpriced GPU.


For good reasons in their view, because as a GPU maker for gamers, how many more unique selling points do they really have left? Note that AMD is doing a similar thing, except not by capturing the market in hostile way, but rather on the train of goodwill. They essentially feed on the us VS them mentality because its free marketing. And they know free works. FreeSync works  Ironically, it 'just works' too, even on Gsync capable monitors. Nvidia lost that battle bigtime, and it underlines why they can never be Apple; some competitor will simply create something more useful, they're not gatekeepers of anything except their own shitty Geforce Experience nobody likes to login to.

RT is another such move, its a desperate search for new demand. Cornering the market is another way to create / maintain demand. And the slow trickle of releases (1>2 year cadence) is another. The examples are all over the place. The company is looking strategically at the future. Note again the massive difference to AMD's approach. AMD is not going to toss bags of money at the industry to make them content. They're going to sit and wait for it to be ready to take off the stove, and make a nice console meal out of it. And the longer they let it sit there, the more Nvidia is going to have to keep working to keep that supposed leadership position. Note the extremely relaxed AMD presentation on the 7000 series. All tech, numbers and just raw gaming. RT? 'Oh yeah, we have it too, it works fine, np'. That's a major vote of confidence - no overinflation, just what it is. I think AMD knows exactly where to punch these days to make Huang gasp for air.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> The short explanation:
> In today's messed-up market, inflated prices and little to no stock, the 4080 at MSRP is considered a deal by anyone who doesn't care about nVidia being a greedy company and supporting the price inflation. Yes - the added cost translated directly into the performance increase and technically paying for the 4080 is the same as paying for a 3080, performance:cost ratio-wise, making it a terrible deal overall and promoting no real improvement over the generations. The sad this is this is only true for MSRP prices, which at this point are just a made-up number that doesn't mean anything because the entire market is trash.
> I'm already seeing 1,200$ 4080's being sold for ~1,800$. This has basically been the case for any new card ever since the 30xx series was released.
> View attachment 270387
> ...


Listening to advice, and not wasting your money on something you don't necessarily need. Well played. 



AnotherReader said:


> In that case, your best bet would have been to buy the 4090 at launch time. It's a much better purchase than the 4080.


I'm not a fan of any company, but I'm starting to think that AMD is a better buy at nearly all price ranges at the moment, unless you need superior RT performance or DLSS.

In the low range, unless you find a cheap 1650, the 6400 and 6500 XT can be had for the price of the garbage 1630 now.
In the mid-range, nothing beats the 6600 and 6600 XT.
In the high-end, AMD is discounting the 6900 XT which makes it a good deal.
In the higher than high end (whatever you want to call it), you only have Nvidia, but one has to be ready to pay the price.


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## AnotherReader (Nov 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I'm not a fan of any company, but I'm starting to think that AMD is a better buy at nearly all price ranges at the moment, unless you need superior RT performance or DLSS.


I agree. AMD is the better buy if you aren't looking for the best RT performance. The gap between the 6600XT and the 3060, for example, is particularly stark. Here, the 3060 is priced about the same as a 6700 XT which is ridiculously faster.


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## Bomby569 (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I'm in no real rush here, but damn it I've been waiting for 4 years to buy a card. 20xx & 30xx sky-rocketed because of crypto miners and the chip shortage so I was forced out of the market at the time, and the 40xx is so far behaving similarly, if not worse due to the already inflated MSRP price.



don't talk shit about miners to me, they took my overpriced rx480 and rx5700 and gave me literal free upgrades in the 2 crypto waves, i've been upgrading without spending any money thanks to them  

sold the 5700 (more then one year old) for 550€ and bought a brand new 3060ti LHR for 600€


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## neatfeatguy (Nov 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> don't talk shit about miners to me, they took my overpriced rx480 and rx5700 and gave me literal free upgrades in the 2 crypto waves, i've been upgrading without spending any money thanks to them
> 
> sold the 5700 (more then one year old) for 550€ and bought a brand new 3060ti LHR for 600€



My brother was able to sell his 5700XT for around $900, just before crypto started to cool off. He paid around $450 for it 2 years prior. I bugged him about selling it sooner, he'd have probably pulled a $1000 or more, but he dragged his feet a bit. He still made profit off it.



Omga4000 said:


> I've already commented about the used market, but basically no.
> The 1st card (out of the 2 I bought) is a present, so buying a used one is not an option here.
> The 2nd card which I bought for myself I just went ahead and cancelled. Waiting for the AMD series to release, hoping it doesn't suck in RT and VR.
> I'm in no real rush here, but damn it I've been waiting for 4 years to buy a card. 20xx & 30xx sky-rocketed because of crypto miners and the chip shortage so I was forced out of the market at the time, and the 40xx is so far behaving similarly, if not worse due to the already inflated MSRP price.
> ...


Why would you be at a loss? The 4080 appears to be pretty easy to get - especially if you have a Micro Center store near you. I didn't check all the store locations, but it appears that most of them have 20+ cards on hand still. If you find that the 7900XT or XTX don't meet your needs, you shouldn't have any issues getting a 4080 again.

I don't think the 4080 is a good use of money, way overpriced....which has been covered many times over in many of the posts in this topic.

If rumors are true, the 7900XTX should fall somewhere between the 4080 and the 4090 in terms of rasterization performance. Even if it doesn't outright beat the 4080, as long as it matches it, that $1000 price tag is a lot more appealing to people than the $1200 for the 4080. We just play the waiting game.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> Why would you be at a loss? The 4080 appears to be pretty easy to get - especially if you have a Micro Center store near you. I didn't check all the store locations, but it appears that most of them have 20+ cards on hand still. If you find that the 7900XT or XTX don't meet your needs, you shouldn't have any issues getting a 4080 again.
> 
> I don't think the 4080 is a good use of money, way overpriced....which has been covered many times over in many of the posts in this topic.
> 
> If rumors are true, the 7900XTX should fall somewhere between the 4080 and the 4090 in terms of rasterization performance. Even if it doesn't outright beat the 4080, as long as it matches it, that $1000 price tag is a lot more appealing to people than the $1200 for the 4080. We just play the waiting game.


I don't have a MicroCenter near me, unfortunately.

It's all a guessing game, I really don't trust anyone anymore. I was fooled one too many times 
I'll play the waiting game because that's the best game I can play right now. Such amazing graphics.


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## Outback Bronze (Nov 17, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Prices on 30 series are still high here



More reason for a 4080 to be expensive then, no?


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## Ayhamb99 (Nov 17, 2022)

To quote what Steve from Gamers Nexus said in his review  "For every one percent performance improvement, if you also spend one percent more money, that ruins the part when it's cool. It's no longer cool. It doesn't actually produce a meaningful step for consumers, where they feel like the industry or the amount that they get for their money is increasing."

No matter how great the performance uplift over the previous generation is, if it also comes with a significant uplift in price, the performance increase becomes irrelevant and it feels more like Nvidia is try to price gouge us.

To quote what another user in this thread already wrote.


TissueBox said:


> I think the chief problem is that value has historically and consistently went up for most generations of the xx80 cards with the exception of Turing/RTX 2xxx.
> 
> For example, the 3080 was 66.7% faster than the 2080 at 4k and was $100 less.
> The 1080 was 69.4% faster than the 980 at 4k and was 9%-27% more expensive (AIBs $599, FE $699).
> ...



People got rightfully angry back when the 2080 Ti was released with its ridiculous price of $1200 because all of the new performance improvements and impressive technology that came with it became irrelevant when it also came with a 70% price increase over the last generation 1080 Ti.

Now Nvidia wants to charge us $1200 for an xx80s card that historically had a MSRP between $500-$700? Nvidia can shove it. The xx80s lineup were always pretty popular for how they came within striking distance of the flagship but at much reasonable prices. With the 4080 not only the price was increased significantly but the whole GPU was cut down in a such a margin that it is nowhere near close to the 4090 making the 4090 look like good value compared to the 4080 and that card costs $1600.

The chip shortage has been over for a while now so there is literally no excuse that Nvidia has for the price increase. It is just pure insatiable greed at an attempt to cash in on the people last year who did not get the memo to avoid buying the GPUs at the inflated prices during the shortage and paid 2x/3x the original MSRP of many of the GPU Lineup.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 17, 2022)

Speaking broadly here (not specifically to the OP), I fear that graphics card prices are irreversibly higher. Decreasing node sizes are increasing cost, while demand for the most advanced nodes has been incredibly strong will lead to high prices. Consumer demand has been far higher than supply. I am voting with my wallet by not buying into it. Unfortunately, too many people are willing to spend this kind of money.


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## wolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> I'm sorry for sounding like a broken record...


Honestly you kinda do, but that's fine.

Again, I bought the product and love it, have no issues with it the way I use it, and have no concerns about longevity in my system.

You joke about VRAM mitigation strategies, well I've never yet had to actually turn textures down, but strategies like that a majority of gamers need to use all the time, not many can people turn every dial in the game to 11 and hit their performance target/max their refresh on a 1440p+ display. In most new games I use optimised settings anyway as it's also the net benefit and smarter way to play than ultra, intelligent visual compromise is everywhere. If VRAM is your hill to die on, so be it, I don't need to hear it again.

So I can appreciate all these spec related reasons that you didn't buy it, your concerns about VRAM mostly it seems, that other users seem to agree with you on, despite not owning or buying one lol, which I'd argue is paramount to knowing what its like to use one in practise (especially when it's the only real 'drawback' consideration), but yeah, cards a beast, and it's yet to disappoint me, hard disagree on those points, so forgive me if I hold my own experience and assessment of value in higher regard than yours, and other non-buyers on this forum. I may sound like a broken record on that, but personal preference and experience are king, nobody but me can can experience this card in my system.

Good luck with whatever do you do or don't choose to buy again that aligns to your preference on features, performance, VRAM etc. Again I can see why the 3080 10gb wasn't the product for you, but I don't really need to keep hearing about the compromise you think I've made, I'm having a great time. In fact I'm convinced not a soul on earth can talk me into disliking it considering it has paid for itself and put even more money in my pocket lol, it made itself free and gave me even more money for the next card. Perhaps we need to agree to disagree, or I can start doing a deep dive into why I didn't buy a 6800XT?


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## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

wolf said:


> You joke about VRAM mitigation strategies, well I've never yet had to actually turn textures down, but strategies like that basically everyone needs to use all the time, *not many can people turn every dial in the game to 11 and hit their performance target.*


That depends on your performance target. My performance target of 40-60 FPS at 1080p is pretty easy to meet at high graphics - even a 6500 XT or 1650 can do it in most games. The only reason I swapped my 2070 with a 6750 XT is because I'd rather pay £450 for an upgrade now than who knows how much a bit later.


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## Mussels (Nov 17, 2022)

The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.
Normally as you go up in the product stack, you get less cost efficiency - halo products cost more for smaller gains.

Except in this case you get "4090 outperforms the 4080 by 41%, while costing 33% more"









oh and 4090s are melting so trust levels are low


(Edited for same message, less words)


6950xt at $800 USD new is slower, yes - but definitely competitive, and without the risk of melting connectors
that upto 40FPS higher is only for people with top-tier CPU's and systems as well, so if you arent running a 13900K or 7700x with 6000MT/s RAM it's a hard purchase
(Other titles had much smaller gaps than the example below)





*unrelated screaming begins*







HAIL NVIDYA
no wonder the 4090s can melt things

(And i'm very glad my 3090 has a 375W max, that i've reduced to <275W)


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## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Mussels said:


> The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.
> Normally as you go up in the product stack, you get less cost efficiency - halo products cost more for smaller gains.
> 
> Except in this case you get "4090 outperforms the 4080 by 41%, while costing 33% more"
> ...


To put it simply, being a better value than the 4090 (which is one of the worst value graphics cards available) doesn't make the 4080 a good buy - just a tiny bit less shit.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Except in this case you get "4090 outperforms the 4080 by 41%, while costing 33% more"


Haven't watched his entire review yet, but what you're quoting shows a massive difference compared to TechPowerUp's testing.
How come? Is it 41% in a very specific game / scenario?

1080p - 5% difference




1440p - 11% difference




4K - 25% difference


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## 64K (Nov 17, 2022)

Mussels said:


> The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.
> Normally as you go up in the product stack, you get less cost efficiency - halo products cost more for smaller gains.
> 
> Except in this case you get "4090 outperforms the 4080 by 41%, while costing 33% more"
> ...



The new xx80 are faster than the previous generation flagship. You can't compare the MSRP of a 4080 to the MSRP of a 3090 Ti. To be accurate you have to compare the MSRP of the 4080 to the MSRP of the 3080 and compare the MSRP of the 4090 Ti (when/if it arrives) to the MSRP of the 3090 Ti.

So what we have is a 4080 ($1,200) compared to a 3080 ($700). That is a huge price increase.


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## Mussels (Nov 17, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Haven't watched his entire review yet, but what you're quoting shows a massive difference compared to TechPowerUp's testing.
> How come? Is it 41% in a very specific game / scenario?
> 
> 1080p - 5% difference
> ...


I linked the video to the time they quoted it, they involve ray tracing more in their results

You asked why, and it's simply because having the price to performance match up isn't how GPU product stacks have worked in previous years - and when they launch the top tier model first you shouldnt pay 20% less for 20% less performance, you're meant to get better value not equal value



And then its comparing peak covid shortage prices to post scarcity prices, which just isnt comparable



64K said:


> The new xx80 are faster than the previous generation flagship. You can't compare the MSRP of a 4080 to the MSRP of a 3090 Ti. To be accurate you have to compare the MSRP of the 4080 to the MSRP of the 3080 and compare the MSRP of the 4090 Ti (when/if it arrives) to the MSRP of the 3090 Ti.
> 
> So what we have is a 4080 ($1,200) compared to a 3080 ($700). That is a huge price jump.


This
Being faster than the previous flagship doesnt mean it should cost more, it's a newer product line


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I linked the video to the time they quoted it, they involve ray tracing more in their results


Ahh - that explains it. Thanks.



Mussels said:


> I linked the video to the time they quoted it, they involve ray tracing more in their results
> 
> You asked why, and it's simply because having the price to performance match up isn't how GPU product stacks have worked in previous years - and when they launch the top tier model first you shouldnt pay 20% less for 20% less performance, you're meant to get better value not equal value
> 
> ...



Yha, that I (finally) understood after people have been repeating it for numerous times.
Feel free to check my original post update, by the way


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## AusWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

64K said:


> The new xx80 are faster than the previous generation flagship. You can't compare the MSRP of a 4080 to the MSRP of a 3090 Ti. To be accurate you have to compare the MSRP of the 4080 to the MSRP of the 3080 and compare the MSRP of the 4090 Ti (when/if it arrives) to the MSRP of the 3090 Ti.
> 
> So what we have is a 4080 ($1,200) compared to a 3080 ($700). That is a huge price increase.


Naming doesn't matter, imo. You either compare the price of products of the same performance level, or the performance of products with similar price.

Where I give you the point is that there should be an improvement in either performance or price, but there isn't one (the exorbitant $2k 3090 Ti doesn't count). Compared to the 3080, you get 23% more performance (source: TPU review) for nearly double MSRP.


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## phanbuey (Nov 17, 2022)

I honestly think it's just a test.  They missed the Scalper pricing opportunity so they're trying to see where the actual market price is.

I think the 4090 was to solidify the top spot.  The 4080 is really a test to see how much they can actually get away with.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 17, 2022)

phanbuey said:


> how much they can actually get away with.


A lot.


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## Dr. Dro (Nov 17, 2022)

64K said:


> The new xx80 are faster than the previous generation flagship. You can't compare the MSRP of a 4080 to the MSRP of a 3090 Ti. To be accurate you have to compare the MSRP of the 4080 to the MSRP of the 3080 and compare the MSRP of the 4090 Ti (when/if it arrives) to the MSRP of the 3090 Ti.
> 
> So what we have is a 4080 ($1,200) compared to a 3080 ($700). That is a huge price increase.



Given the very high amount of disabled cores in the RTX 4090, I'm willing to stake on NVIDIA reviving the Titan brand with a release slated for their 30th anniversary in April 2023. No holds barred, full AD102 core, 48GB G6X, Up to 750W TGP, $3000. Those are my predictions.



Mussels said:


> (And i'm very glad my 3090 has a 375W max, that i've reduced to <275W)



Yeah, I agree. Above this threshold (375W) the problems begin unless your card is on water. It's just too much energy to dissipate through traditional air cooling. Reliability axis goes down fast after this.

Honestly with 3090's we are pretty safe to skip this generation altogether, but given I need another GPU I will still try to get a 7900 XTX. After that I'm probably going to hang up my upgrade hat for a number of years. Next year I turn 30, time to settle down and start looking at having kids


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## phanbuey (Nov 17, 2022)

AMD really doesn't have a good marketing message to compete with NV.  They keep trying to compete in specs and pricing which is a dead end -- even when they won on those they did poorly.

IF AMD set up a proper purchasing queue (like evga) to get cards and then went the "We are about the gamer and customer experience" route they would crush it.  Nvidia's Achilles heel is that they treat their buyers and partners like crap.

Here's some examples:




Even if the 7900xt gets crushed by the 4080, AMD could take market share by making the buying experience great and tailoring the marketing to being about the customer/gaming experience.  Throw in some side by sides of RT on vs off and you see RT is still garbage and you have a really compelling product.


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## wolf (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> That depends on your performance target.


Of course, I have a preference to balance visuals against fluidity and target 90-120fps at 2160p. And to an extent I think it's reasonable to make smart concessions to achieve that. If one targets 40-60fps at 1080p, their hardware requirements can be a LOT lower too, so that's nice.


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## DailymotionGamer (Nov 18, 2022)

Its selling pretty good despite the price. I don't hate it, i only use workstation GPU's, next card I'm buying is a Radeon Pro W5700 for under $250 dollars lol. 
Good game!


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## Omga4000 (Nov 18, 2022)

To everyone who was wondering about why the RTX 4080 was pretty much sold very quickly, this is likely because their stock was extremely low to begin with, at least according to Moore's Law Is Dead sources.


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## wolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> at least according to Moore's Law Is Dead sources.


Haven't been able to take that guy seriously in years, a channel and content built on whispers, rumors, and copious amounts of filling the gaps with bullshit.

But hey, throw enough stuff at a wall, some of it is bound to stick, even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 18, 2022)

wolf said:


> Haven't been able to take that guy seriously in years, a channel and content built on whispers, rumors, and copious amounts of filling the gaps with bullshit.
> 
> But hey, throw enough stuff at a wall, some of it is bound to stick, even a broken clock is right twice a day.


Have never seen him before in my life, just happened to come across his video about the matter.
I'll take it with a grain of salt.


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## wolf (Nov 18, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Way too many salty people in forums


You're not wrong. It's important to be objective and critical I get that, but it is amusing to continually hear from people (mostly on reddit but also here) about why say the GFX card I purchased for myself was the wrong choice lol. They often see us talking positively about it as confirmation bias or something, but I put more stock in an owners opinion over someone who doesn't own one and chooses to crap on it with zero first hand experience. I've been guilty of it myself, but I'd add that from my perspective it usually a multi factor thing, like the price+multiple aspects of the specs and features suck, not just the price, or one part of the spec, or one feature etc. Take the 4080, it's actually a really good product technically speaking, it's just been given an MSRP/street price that most people think is too high, broadly speaking that's by far it's largest drawback, if perhaps the only serious drawback.

Turns out, a product at a given price has a place for everyone, you're happy with your 4090, power to you, I'm sure somewhere, people are happy with their 6500XT's and 3050's, power to them too. Both products at almost opposite ends of the spectrum and have groups that intensely hate them, groups made up in vast majorities by people who don't own them and would seemingly prefer your purchase decision aligned to their personal procurement strategy and needs, it's fascinating.


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## Why_Me (Nov 18, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Said Elon Musk.
> 
> With all seriousness, though. Is that what you understood from my post?
> If I had "way too much money" do you think I'd bother opening a thread and asking for people's opinion?
> If you had actually read the thread you'd know I've canceled my order after the nice people of this community had helped me understand why this was a bad deal.


Didn't read the entire thread but how much were you being charged for those cards?


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## Omga4000 (Nov 18, 2022)

Why_Me said:


> Didn't read the entire thread but how much were you being charged for those cards?


MSRP.
I bought the Gigabyte OC version which was a few extra bucks - 1,269$.


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## Why_Me (Nov 18, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> MSRP.
> I bought the Gigabyte OC version which was a few extra bucks - 1,269$.


Should have kept those cards.  They are only topped by the 4090.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 18, 2022)

Why_Me said:


> Should have kept those cards.  They are only topped by the 4090.


1) So far. Pending the 7900 XTX, which is expected to be faster while costing less, we'll see about that.
2) I still have my reservation, I haven't lost the cards. I won't pick it up until I see what happens with the AMD series, but either way that card's MSRP is a 1-to-1 increase of performance and price compared to a 3080, making it a lousy purchase.
3) Still hoping to get a 4090 at MSRP, which would be best for me, but stocks are just non-existent and all that fire-hazard fiasco has really made me reconsider that one as well.
4) As people have mentioned - it's not worth the price, really. I do suggest you read the thread if it interests you


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## mama (Nov 18, 2022)

Mussels said:


> The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.
> Normally as you go up in the product stack, you get less cost efficiency - halo products cost more for smaller gains.
> 
> Except in this case you get "4090 outperforms the 4080 by 41%, while costing 33% more"
> ...


If you paint a donkey to look like a horse, it's still a donkey.  The 4080 is not a halo product and shouldn't be priced like one (or compared to the 4090 which is in the stupid halo class).


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## ratirt (Nov 18, 2022)

wolf said:


> Take the 4080, it's actually a really good product technically speaking, it's just been given an MSRP/street price that most people think is too high, broadly speaking that's by far it's largest drawback, if perhaps the only serious drawback.


Because of this price the product becomes bad. The performance is good. It is higher than the last gen flagship and that is great but the value goes out the window. That is why people are opposed this and in general terms call the 4080 a bad product. It is the bigger picture here that makes the 4080 undesirable and a bad product.
Technically speaking also, 4080 has a huge gap between 4090 if you have not noticed. The price is astronomical for what the 4080 is even though it is faster than 3090Ti but that's beside the point now. The gap between 3080 and 3090 was not that big which basically tells you something too about the 4080. If you include price of the card here, well, it is a shameless money grab knowing the 4080 MSRP NV set so high (not to mention the 4080 12GB disappointment) there is a chance of another 2 tier cards between the 4080 and 4090. like 4080 super and 4080 ti? Obviously the prices for these will be adequately higher. That pisses people off. Not to mention the 4090Ti which will cost bags of cash as well.


wolf said:


> You're not wrong. It's important to be objective and critical I get that, but it is amusing to continually hear from people (mostly on reddit but also here) about why say the GFX card I purchased for myself was the wrong choice lol.


People are objective and they use the bigger picture and give examples. Countless here to be fair. They are salty and I see why, ADA release is very bad and that is a fact with the price tags on the products. People see the product as a whole not just technical aspect. (which in terms of 4080 is not that great which I have mentioned above). What bugs me on the other hand is, some people here point out saltiness and refute ADA being a bad product claims by literally saying you are too salty or if you cant afford don't buy it, or it is faster so it has to be more expensive. This are not valid arguments but rather following NV (profit company) narration which may render people OK'ing to this shills. Look at this on the other hand. It is amusing to hear people praising company despite releasing a really bad product in general. There are other aspects but lets just stop here.


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## siluro818 (Nov 18, 2022)

It's kind of like walking into a store, seeing something you like, and asking the price. You're told that it costs $600, but if you would be so kind to also give an extra $600 to the store owner? Because he asked you nicely that is. And you do it.
Here's me asking nicely for $600. Anyone who buys the 4080 at msrp should have no issue handing me $600, no strings attached. I'm offering them exactly the same deal lol


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## Vayra86 (Nov 18, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> To everyone who was wondering about why the RTX 4080 was pretty much sold very quickly, this is likely because their stock was extremely low to begin with, at least according to Moore's Law Is Dead sources.
> 
> View attachment 270458


I'd ignore this joker if I were you.


----------



## fevgatos (Nov 18, 2022)

The fact that you think nvidia is directly responsible for the prices is ludicrous. The 3080 was priced at 699 right? How many people got it for that price? They couldn't even fill an elevator. Supply and demand are the magic words. If it sells like crazy at 1200 MSRP, there is absolutely no freaking reason for nvidia to reduce the prices. Actually, theyd have to be stupid to do so. And in fact, if they did reduce the price to lets say, 699,youd still be mad cause you wouldn't be able to buy one, they would be out of stock everywhere.


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## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Have never seen him before in my life, just happened to come across his video about the matter.
> I'll take it with a grain of salt.


Personally, I just blocked that channel altogether as a lot of their "rumours" turned out to be completely wrong after a couple of months or years. Utter BS they are.



wolf said:


> You're not wrong. It's important to be objective and critical I get that, but it is amusing to continually hear from people (mostly on reddit but also here) about why say the GFX card I purchased for myself was the wrong choice lol. They often see us talking positively about it as confirmation bias or something, but I put more stock in an owners opinion over someone who doesn't own one and chooses to crap on it with zero first hand experience. I've been guilty of it myself, but I'd add that from my perspective it usually a multi factor thing, like the price+multiple aspects of the specs and features suck, not just the price, or one part of the spec, or one feature etc. Take the 4080, it's actually a really good product technically speaking, it's just been given an MSRP/street price that most people think is too high, broadly speaking that's by far it's largest drawback, if perhaps the only serious drawback.
> 
> Turns out, a product at a given price has a place for everyone, you're happy with your 4090, power to you, I'm sure somewhere, people are happy with their 6500XT's and 3050's, power to them too. Both products at almost opposite ends of the spectrum and have groups that intensely hate them, groups made up in vast majorities by people who don't own them and would seemingly prefer your purchase decision aligned to their personal procurement strategy and needs, it's fascinating.


The crux in that is that it's easy to be happy with something that fits your needs and budget, but that doesn't mean that it fits someone else's too. I was happy with my 6500 XT before I upgraded. You wouldn't be because your performance target is higher.

Some people are happy with the 4080 or 4090 and they don't give a flying f*** how much they paid for it. Like you said, all the power to them. It still doesn't mean that the 4080 is an objectively good buy. You can be happy to do your shopping in a Ferrari Enzo, but it doesn't mean that it's the perfect car for the job for everyone.

I'm a good example, too. I tend to buy a shitload of hardware and up- and downgrade far more often than I need to, because I'm curious. I downgraded my 2070 to a 6500 XT, then switched back to the 2070 after a while, and now I have a 6750 XT. Am I happy? Yes. Was this whole endeavor an absolute waste of money considering my performance target? Totally, yes. Would I do it again? Absolutely. Would I recommend others to do the same? Never ever.

To stay on topic, I only recommend buying the 4080 or 4090 if you want the best of the best, and you're loaded with cash. If you care about your spending just the tiniest bit, stay away.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Personally, I just blocked that channel altogether as a lot of their "rumours" turned out to be completely wrong after a couple of months or years. Utter BS they are.
> 
> 
> The crux in that is that it's easy to be happy with something that fits your needs and budget, but that doesn't mean that it fits someone else's too. I was happy with my 6500 XT before I upgraded. You wouldn't be because your performance target is higher.
> ...


Its a very human reflex to look positively on your own purchases. After all, our mind has been convinced they are good choices; we made a (subconscious) effort to believe this was a good choice, so its a direct attack on our ego if other people make or motivate different choices and apply rational arguments that stick. It stings, somewhere, somehow, even if we say it doesn't. Again, human reflex/psychology. Its how we protect ourselves.

That's why I made the point of reflection on choices (and stances) a few years down the line. Reflecting like that can provide those eureka moments where you realize what happened to your brain in the past. In a world full of marketing and commerce, its important to do that from time to time, to keep making rational choices. Its ALSO fine if we're conscious of the rationale, and still _choose _to satisfy the emotion. But I cannot stress how important it is to separate those clearly, and determine what truly made us purchase/do what we do. When you are capable of that reflection, true wisdom emerges and defeats instant gratification.

From the outside though its extremely easy to identify cognitive dissonance, much more easily than it is to see it from yourself.


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## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Its a very human reflex to look positively on your own purchases. After all, our mind has been convinced they are good choices; we made a (subconscious) effort to believe this was a good choice, so its a direct attack on our ego if other people make or motivate different choices and apply rational arguments that stick. It stings, somewhere, somehow, even if we say it doesn't. Again, human reflex/psychology. Its how we protect ourselves.
> 
> That's why I made the point of reflection on choices (and stances) a few years down the line. Reflecting like that can provide those eureka moments where you realize what happened to your brain in the past. In a world full of marketing and commerce, its important to do that from time to time, to keep making rational choices. Its ALSO fine if we're conscious of the rationale, and still _choose _to satisfy the emotion. But I cannot stress how important it is to separate those clearly, and determine what truly made us purchase/do what we do.
> 
> From the outside though its extremely easy to identify cognitive dissonance, much more easily than it is to see it from yourself.


I couldn't have said it better myself. 

Nvidia appears to be trying to build around the emotion that precedes the cognitive dissonance you're talking about. People know that the 40-series is a bad buy, but they buy it anyway because they're told that it's the best. Then they see hundreds of FPS that makes them happy and forget about (or purposefully disregard) the fact that they could have had the same hundreds of FPS by spending far less.

This is why I hate the 40-series. Not because of the actual physical properties of the products themselves. It's good, but its marketing and price are cognitive dissonance in action.


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## wolf (Nov 18, 2022)

It's also possible to reflect highly on our own choices because a lot of preparation went into the choice. Setting a baseline for what you want from a product in terms of performance, features, price, and tertiary considerations etc, then pulling the trigger on the purchase, and of course being happy with it, because you previously defined what that baseline for success would be. Definitely revisit that as time goes on, and unexpectedly I'm even more happy than immediately following the purchase.


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## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

wolf said:


> It's also possible to reflect highly on our own choices because a lot of preparation went into the choice. Setting a baseline for what you want from a product in terms of performance, features, price, and tertiary considerations etc, then pulling the trigger on the purchase, and of course being happy with it, because you previously defined what that baseline for success would be. Definitely revisit that as time goes on, and unexpectedly are even more happy than immediately following the purchase.


The only question is, how objective you can be when you revisit those choices. A lot of my upgrades ended up with the conclusion "meh, it works" or "it's okay" lately, but it would not necessarily be like that if I got blinded by how much money I've spent. That's the cognitive dissonance part of it. You (general "you") justify your bad choices by the sacrifices you made for them. Just like dining at a super fancy restaurant. Even though you're still hungry by the end of your meal, you're telling yourself that it was a good experience because you blew a shitload of money away. It's not the 1990s and early 2000s anymore when the jump from a GeForce 256 to a GeForce 4 Ti was massive. All you see nowadays is a bit more FPS which hardly justifies spending $6-700 more on one graphics card over another (looking at the 4080 vs the 3080).


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 18, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> RTX 4090 Owner Hits Nvidia With Lawsuit Over Melting 16-pin Connector | Tom's Hardware (tomshardware.com)


Gee, who saw THIS coming? I agree with the suit on those points. That connector is poorly designed and as Steve over at GN showed a few days ago, very dangerous and should never have been used. I have unfortunately seen an example of this melting connector. It was sold to an experienced PC user and was installed in a proper way. Not going to be promoting or selling anything that has that connector going forward and will be actively telling people to avoid it. Looks like AMD will be getting the bulk of my GPU business until NVidia goes back to the previous PCIe connector, which is a proven safe technology. That connector and the VERY poorly designed "adapter" cable is a joke and was from the beginning.


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## nguyen (Nov 18, 2022)

wolf said:


> You're not wrong. It's important to be objective and critical I get that, but it is amusing to continually hear from people (mostly on reddit but also here) about why say the GFX card I purchased for myself was the wrong choice lol. They often see us talking positively about it as confirmation bias or something, but I put more stock in an owners opinion over someone who doesn't own one and chooses to crap on it with zero first hand experience. I've been guilty of it myself, but I'd add that from my perspective it usually a multi factor thing, like the price+multiple aspects of the specs and features suck, not just the price, or one part of the spec, or one feature etc. Take the 4080, it's actually a really good product technically speaking, it's just been given an MSRP/street price that most people think is too high, broadly speaking that's by far it's largest drawback, if perhaps the only serious drawback.
> 
> Turns out, a product at a given price has a place for everyone, you're happy with your 4090, power to you, I'm sure somewhere, people are happy with their 6500XT's and 3050's, power to them too. Both products at almost opposite ends of the spectrum and have groups that intensely hate them, groups made up in vast majorities by people who don't own them and would seemingly prefer your purchase decision aligned to their personal procurement strategy and needs, it's fascinating.



hehe, you just gotta tune out others opinions, especially from people who have nothing better to do than giving opinions without having any experience (just worthless opinions).

As for 4080 prices, it's unlikely that prices will fall any time soon, so if time is valuable to some people, perhaps it's just better to grab a 4080 at the earliest and at MSRP and just enjoy kick ass gaming experience. I know my time is worth a lot, so I just buy the best GPU when it come out and enjoy it for 2 years before moving on to the next best GPU .


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 18, 2022)

nguyen said:


> hehe, you just gotta tune out others opinions, especially from people who have nothing better to do than giving opinions without having any experience (just worthless opinions).
> 
> As for 4080 prices, it's unlikely that prices will fall any time soon, so if time is valuable to some people, perhaps it's just better to grab a 4080 at the earliest and at MSRP and just enjoy kick ass gaming experience. I know my time is worth a lot, so I just buy the best GPU when it come out and enjoy it for 2 years before moving on to the next best GPU .


If time is valuable to people, another way to approach life is to not spend everything on overpriced goods and instead just work a few hours less each week.

Now thát's making the most out of time, in my book. But we all have our preferences. Shouldn't you be gaming, rather than tuning out of opinions on a forum?


----------



## Dr. Dro (Nov 18, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> To everyone who was wondering about why the RTX 4080 was pretty much sold very quickly, this is likely because their stock was extremely low to begin with, at least according to Moore's Law Is Dead sources.
> 
> View attachment 270458



Truckload of salt when it comes to MLID. Truth is, it's gonna be a best seller. The average consumer doesn't really care for the market conditions and the whole economics behind it, just the price, and they are very tolerant to higher prices to get what they want.


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## AusWolf (Nov 18, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> If time is valuable to people, another way to approach life is to not spend everything on overpriced goods and instead just work a few hours less each week.
> 
> Now thát's making the most out of time, in my book. But we all have our preferences. Shouldn't you be gaming, rather than tuning out of opinions on a forum?


If time (and money) is valuable, I'd much rather buy a 3080 or 6800 XT and call it a day. If one needs more, they can wait for more reasonable deals to come by.



nguyen said:


> I just buy the best GPU when it come out and enjoy it for 2 years before moving on to the next best GPU .


That is a HUGE waste of money, but if you're fine with that, who am I to judge.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 18, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Personally, I just blocked that channel altogether as a lot of their "rumours" turned out to be completely wrong after a couple of months or years. Utter BS they are.





Vayra86 said:


> I'd ignore this joker if I were you.


Yup, looks like that's what I'll be doing 

Following everything that was discussed here about the melting connectors of the 4090 (and possibly of the 4080 as well):


----------



## wolf (Nov 19, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> The only question is, how objective you can be when you revisit those choices


I think quite objective honestly, I spose we'll see in 2 years time, so far nothing is compelling enough for me to part with how much money they're asking, I'd be chasing a 2x+ uplift for roughly what I paid for the 3080. I certainly don't need extra performance right now, but there's *always* the desire for it.

I will admit however that no matter my assessment now, or in 2 years, there will certainly be a layer of acceptance over the top because the card paid for itself and then some. I'll happily be critical of it as a purchase, but at the end of the day it was effectively free and put more money into my pocket for whatever I want next, kinda hard to be sore about maybe turning down textures from ultra to very high (should that need to happen) on a product that paid for itself lol.



Vayra86 said:


> Now thát's making the most out of time, in my book. But we all have our preferences. Shouldn't you be gaming, rather than tuning out of opinions on a forum?


Never been a fan of that 'argument' honestly, the why aren't you / shouldn't you be somewhere else, we're all here on this forum discussing, we also all do many many other things with the remaining vast majority of our time.


----------



## nguyen (Nov 19, 2022)

wolf said:


> Never been a fan of that 'argument' honestly, the why aren't you / shouldn't you be somewhere else, we're all here on this forum discussing, we also all do many many other things with the remaining vast majority of our time.



hehe, I got some observations regarding the make up of forum users
Like this TPU polls




Or WCCF poll




Despite Nvidia holding 80% of dGPU marketshare, the majority of forum users are very AMD-centric, I theorize that most Nvidia owners are often not active in forums (or at least english forums, Asian countries don't care about AMD GPU at all)

OP had very good idea about looking at Steam Hardware Survey, but asking opinions in forums, not so much.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 19, 2022)

nguyen said:


> hehe, I got some observations regarding the make up of forum users
> Like this TPU polls
> View attachment 270644
> Or WCCF poll
> ...


And the quest for confirmation continues in a new direction...

Sad, indeed 
Is it so hard to accept that things can change and that you've become an exception to that? The numbers dont lie, you post them yourself.



wolf said:


> I think quite objective honestly, I spose we'll see in 2 years time, so far nothing is compelling enough for me to part with how much money they're asking, I'd be chasing a 2x+ uplift for roughly what I paid for the 3080. I certainly don't need extra performance right now, but there's *always* the desire for it.
> 
> I will admit however that no matter my assessment now, or in 2 years, there will certainly be a layer of acceptance over the top because the card paid for itself and then some. I'll happily be critical of it as a purchase, but at the end of the day it was effectively free and put more money into my pocket for whatever I want next, kinda hard to be sore about maybe turning down textures from ultra to very high (should that need to happen) on a product that paid for itself lol.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I think you definitely timed it right, that one, seeing as we havent seen much better offerings since.


----------



## wolf (Nov 19, 2022)

nguyen said:


> hehe, I got some observations regarding the make up of forum users ....
> Like this TPU polls .... very good idea about looking at Steam Hardware Survey, but asking opinions in forums, not so much.


I see that 100%, it's almost the reverse of the market share positions in terms of vocal supporters on forums (here and others), to a fault. It's turned into an echo chamber before and there's just no amount of reason that can break through that, I've bowed out before, knowing I'm getting nowhere. Even people that don't comment pile likes/votes which clearly show where their support lies, even when the argument is wrong/in bad faith/twisted narrative and so on. 

Think of it a bit like this, you're in a room with three other people. You say the sky is blue, they say it's actually a pulsating fluoro pink, since they agree with each other, and have a majority, you're the odd one out and more often than not, no amount of reasoning with them will have them see you're actually correct, in that case what do you do? I drop it, let them be confidently incorrect and enjoy their version of reality. 

Look I get throwing some support behind the underdog, who doesn't want an underdog to succeed? And who doesn't like heated competition for all? Those are great things, as is calling out bs when you see it, like pricing for example in this thread. What I see increasingly on forums is armchair psychology, armchair engineers, armchair company strategists, politics, schadenfreude, playing favourites (dismissing similar actions of one but crucifying the other, or lauding a good news story for one but not the other), copium, and some plain old hatred. There's probably more, and it'll probably get worse before it gets better.


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## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

nguyen said:


> hehe, I got some observations regarding the make up of forum users
> Like this TPU polls
> View attachment 270644
> Or WCCF poll
> ...


My theory is that forum users know their ways about PC parts and how much X part is worth, and they're more conscious about where they put their money, and how much money they spend. But forum users are not the only buyers. There's still lots of people who know nothing about PCs, just walk into a store and trust the crew to hook them up with whatever they've got. There's also lots of system builder companies who specialize on selling for these people. If you're an average Joe, and you see a PC for $1,500 and another for $2,000, you'll obviously know that the more expensive one is better. What you won't know is 1. whether it's better for your specific use case, and 2. how much better exactly. You may be paying double the price for 10% more performance and you won't even know about it. As an average Joe, you probably won't even care because you've got the latest GeForce yadda-yadda and it spits FPS and it's awesome. These people are the majority buyers nowadays and Nvidia seems to be focusing on them, as they're the easiest to be milked.

TLDR: Forum users are not the majority market. We're an exception.

Edit: OP did very well to ask in a forum, because we know our ways around PC parts. The majority of Steam users who buy pre-built PCs nowadays? Erm... let's leave it at that.


----------



## nguyen (Nov 19, 2022)

wolf said:


> I see that 100%, it's almost the reverse of the market share positions in terms of vocal supporters on forums (here and others), to a fault. It's turned into an echo chamber before and there's just no amount of reason that can break through that, I've bowed out before, knowing I'm getting nowhere. Even people that don't comment pile likes/votes which clearly show where their support lies, even when the argument is wrong/in bad faith/twisted narrative and so on.
> 
> Think of it a bit like this, you're in a room with three other people. You say the sky is blue, they say it's actually a pulsating fluoro pink, since they agree with each other, and have a majority, you're the odd one out and more often than not, no amount of reasoning with them will have them see you're actually correct, in that case what do you do? I drop it, let them be confidently incorrect and enjoy their version of reality.
> 
> Look I get throwing some support behind the underdog, who doesn't want an underdog to succeed? And who doesn't like heated competition for all? Those are great things, as is calling out bs when you see it, like pricing for example in this thread. What I see increasingly on forums is armchair psychology, armchair engineers, armchair company strategists, politics, schadenfreude, playing favourites (dismissing similar actions of one but crucifying the other, or lauding a good news story for one but not the other), copium, and some plain old hatred. There's probably more, and it'll probably get worse before it gets better.



Nah I think OP realized that 4080 MSRP is terrible vs 4090, but actual street price for 4090 are 2000usd+ where he lives, whereas he can buy 4080 for 1260usd. Market condition is not guaranteed to improve anytime soon and 7900XTX coming will not fix it.

2 possible scenarios:
_7900XTX sucks (tie with 4080 in raster) and sell exactly at 1000usd MSRP or
_7900XTX are so good it gonna get scalped anyways, inflating its price to 4080's MSRP.

So yeah, just like the 3080Ti, its MSRP was terrible but during terrible time, it wasn't so bad LOL


----------



## P4-630 (Nov 19, 2022)

Nobody Wants NVIDIA's $1199 US GeForce RTX 4080: Despite Lower Shipments, Retailers & Stores Are Stocked With Cards
					

NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 4080 is witnessing poor sales days after its launch and that is very much due to its absurd $1199 US pricing.




					wccftech.com
				




Prices in my country and in stock:


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## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

nguyen said:


> 2 possible scenarios:
> _7900XTX sucks (tie with 4080 in raster) and sell exactly at 1000usd MSRP or
> _7900XTX are so good it gonna get scalped anyways, inflating its price to 4080's MSRP.


You call the $1,000 7900 XTX tying with the $1,200 4080 a fail?


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## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Despite Nvidia holding 80% of dGPU marketshare, the majority of forum users are very AMD-centric


I'm not sure if that's really the case.
I'm nVidia-centric myself, but I am rooting for AMD as much as I can.
I think the majority of us are just tired of nVidia's monopoly and trashing on its users.
We want a decent competitor, not only in price-to-performance but also in pure performance.
I want to see AMD competing against nVidia's high-end (ex-Titan / 4090 Ti) cards and leaving them in the dust.

Even if I choose to stay with nVidia, at least it'll be because I CHOSE to do it and not because nVidia is the only choice for top-tier performance all the time and I must go with it.



nguyen said:


> Nah I think OP realized that 4080 MSRP is terrible vs 4090, but actual street price for 4090 are 2000usd+ where he lives, whereas he can buy 4080 for 1260usd. Market condition is not guaranteed to improve anytime soon and 7900XTX coming will not fix it.


Can confirm this is correct. I know I am being screwed with the 4080's and I'd hate to support nVidia for what they're doing, but I also feel like I've waited too long and meh.
Luckily I have yet to pick up my cards before opening this thread and I won't be picking them up / opening them until the AMD 7900 XTX is released.
I can freely return them until January 14th, so I have ~1 month to see what's going to happen with the market.
If the 7900 XTX reviews really show it's better than the 4080 (especially at VR games & RT), I'll definitely be returning the 4080's.
Either that, or if I manage to grab a 4090 at MSRP.


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## 64K (Nov 19, 2022)

The guys that are voting more than $1,400 in the poll aren't kidding. Retailers are gouging. Also, I just checked Ebay and the 4080s are selling for between $1,500 and $1,900 and there's already a lot of them. These are actually "sold" prices that I checked. It's not miners this time. It's gamers. Incredible.


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## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Nah I think OP realized that 4080 MSRP is terrible vs 4090, but actual street price for 4090 are 2000usd+ where he lives, whereas he can buy 4080 for 1260usd. Market condition is not guaranteed to improve anytime soon and 7900XTX coming will not fix it.
> 
> 2 possible scenarios:
> _7900XTX sucks (tie with 4080 in raster) and sell exactly at 1000usd MSRP or
> ...


We will definitely see those who bouth 7900xxx at 1000+$ with the utmost conviction thay made justice by supporting the "under-dog" while striking retaliation vs greddy NV practice. But AMD is no under-dog, it is (still) just a smaller NV who also exploit (like NV) the market that takes them as the 'budget option'. NV exploit on mindeshere and top absolute performance, AMD on "I`m the underdog budget" but both do the same thing eventually to get the most $$$ from a given situation on the consumer back.
AMD will sit quietly from the side, with a big smile, and will keep on riding NV`s wave of upping the cost gen to gen while enjoying the "robin-hood' image that rage blinded, NV haters, poorly informs and easy to manipulate consumers entitled them.
The absurdness will skyrocket to new levels once again, like wattage consumption, GPU`s physical volume size, cost and diminishing returns.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Nobody Wants NVIDIA's $1199 US GeForce RTX 4080: Despite Lower Shipments, Retailers & Stores Are Stocked With Cards
> 
> 
> NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 4080 is witnessing poor sales days after its launch and that is very much due to its absurd $1199 US pricing.
> ...



Didn't we say we're ignoring this YouTube channel? 

I can confirm this is the same in my country (US, WA). There is no stock at all for the 4080's as well.
I do see a 1,400$ one from ASUS going back in stock sometimes, but it is also disappearing quickly when it does show up.
The ones that are being sold (not by an official retailer) are being sold for over 2,000$. That's even more expensive than the already inflated 4090.


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## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> We will definitely see those who bouth 7900xxx at 1000+$ with the utmost conviniance thay made justice by supporting the "under-dog" and srike retaliation vs NV greddy practice. But AMD is no under-dog, it is (still) just a smaller NV who exploit the market that takes them as the 'budget option'.
> AMD will sit quietly from the side, with a big smile, and will keep on riding NV`s wave of upping the cost gen to gen while enjoying the "robin-hood' image that rage blinded, NV haters, poorly informs and easy to manipulate consumers entitled them.
> The absurdness will skyrocket to new levels once again, like wattage consumption, GPU`s physical volume size, cost and diminishing returns.


At least the 7900 XTX is launching with the same MSRP as the 6900 XT did. When was the last time we saw that from Nvidia?

Edit: Also, at least we see some innovation from AMD (chiplets, reworked core structure, etc.). How consumers benefit is a different question, but at least we see where their money goes. The last time Nvidia innovated was when they introduced Tensor and RT cores with Turing. Ever since then, it's price increase after price increase for the same tech on a shrunk node.


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## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> But AMD is no under-dog, it is (still) just a smaller NV who exploit the market that takes them as the 'budget option'.


Lesser of two evils


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## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Lesser of two evils


...is also evil.
By all mean choose AMD, but not as a support move because they are the 'underdog' , the 'robin hood' that came to save us all from 'greddy NV'.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> ...is also evil.
> By all mean choose AMD, but not because they are the 'under dog, robin hoos' that came to save us all from 'greddy NV'.


That doesn't matter to me.
No company is my friend, they are all here to make money off of me.

I am simply choosing the one which gives me the most worth for my money.
If it happens to be AMD, so be it. I am still holding the nVidia reservation but am not going to pick it up until 7900 XTX is released and there are proper reviews about it.
When reviews release I'll make an educated decision. Que sera, sera.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> ...is also evil.
> By all mean choose AMD, but not because they are the 'underdog' , the 'robin hood' that came to save us all from 'greddy NV'.


You can easily choose AMD because they are the better bang for your buck at all levels nowadays - unless you absolutely can't live without superior RT/DLSS, and/or having the best of the best.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> You can easily choose AMD because they are the better bang for your buck at all levels nowadays - unless you absolutely can't live without superior RT/DLSS, and/or having the best of the best.


I Personally need the CUDA cores for professional use (premiere pro, lightroom)- Still no viable replacement from AMD to that.
But my 970 GTX still do its CUDA roll to my satisfaction.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I Personally need the CUDA cores for professional use (premiere pro, lightroom)- Still no viable replacement from AMD to that.
> But my 970 GTX still do its CUDA roll to my satisfaction.


That's fair enough.  If you only game, though, you can easily live without Nvidia's gimmicks, in my opinion.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> At least the 7900 XTX is launching with the same MSRP as the 6900 XT did. When was the last time we saw that from Nvidia?
> 
> Edit: Also, at least we see some innovation from AMD (chiplets, reworked core structure, etc.). How consumers benefit is a different question, but at least we see where their money goes. The last time Nvidia innovated was when they introduced Tensor and RT cores with Turing. Ever since then, it's price increase after price increase for the same tech on a shrunk node.


Other than a "nice to know", I don`t see how any of AMD innovation (and I will not argue about how NV is also if not more innovative) has anyting to do with purchase criteria.
It sound like an argument to self convince yourself why to choose AMD and I`m aginst that.



AusWolf said:


> That's fair enough.  If you only game, though, you can easily live without Nvidia's gimmicks, in my opinion.


Very much agreed.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Other than a "nice to know", I don`t see how any of AMD innovation (and will not argure about how NV is also if not more innovative) has anyting to do with purchase criteria.
> It sound like an argument to self convince yourself why to choose AMD and I`m aginst that.


I didn't mean it like that. If the 7900 XTX sucks, it sucks regardless of the effort put into its development. But at least there's effort, which I think is commendable, even if the end product doesn't deserve to be bought. Nvidia Ada on the other hand, is nothing more than Ampere on a die shrink.


----------



## P4-630 (Nov 19, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I can confirm this is the same in my country (US, WA). There is no stock at all for the 4080's as well.





P4-630 said:


> in stock


Guess you miss-read...

In other words , they don't sell much....


----------



## sepheronx (Nov 19, 2022)

64K said:


> The guys that are voting more than $1,400 in the poll aren't kidding. Retailers are gouging. Also, I just checked Ebay and the 4080s are selling for between $1,500 and $1,900 and there's already a lot of them. These are actually "sold" prices that I checked. It's not miners this time. It's gamers. Incredible.


a lot of people were saying this was an issue regardless of mining or not in the past.  Because consoles cannot be mined on and it was the same result.

Hell, people are scalping Intel ARC 770's here.  It is pathetic but oh well.  People are dumb enough to purchase these scalped GPU's and people are willing to pay extortion for a new GPU as is so whatever.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Guess you miss-read...
> 
> In other words , they don't sell much....


Wait, those cards that you've listed are sold for MSRP in your country?
I thought you meant that they've all been sold and those that are in stock are selling for *OVER* MSRP.
Because that's the case here.. Whatever they have in stock is selling for much higher prices.

If that's the case, then the prices in your country are insane to begin with.


----------



## mb194dc (Nov 19, 2022)

Seems in the UK there was Nvidia store stock yesterday and aib models are widely available... £1354 cheapest on Scan currently. £1299 on OCUK.

Be interesting to see when Nvidia give a guidance update..? Stock trades at what P/E again?


----------



## 64K (Nov 19, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> a lot of people were saying this was an issue regardless of mining or not in the past.  Because consoles cannot be mined on and it was the same result.
> 
> Hell, people are scalping Intel ARC 770's here.  It is pathetic but oh well.  People are dumb enough to purchase these scalped GPU's and people are willing to pay extortion for a new GPU as is so whatever.



Concerning the console shortage in the past, part of that was the impact of the Pandemic and difficulty in getting chips.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

wolf said:


> underdog


Btw, and to to add for the irony in the situation we are in, the real GPU underdog (if ever exist) is Intel`s ARC.
Intel, the underdog.
Read and LOL.


----------



## 64K (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Btw, and to to add for the irony in the situation we are in, the real underdog (if ever exist) is Intes`s ARC.
> Intel, the underdog.
> Read and LOL.



Kind of hard to feel sorry for Intel.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Btw, and to to add for the irony in the situation we are in, the real underdog (if ever exist) is Intes`s ARC.
> Intel, the underdog.
> Read and LOL.


Intel has been the "underdog" in many areas, and have always failed to make a true impact in the market.
This is probably because the old-folks leading Intel simply decide doing things too little too late, just like when they've tried going into the cellphone CPU market and failed.
I can't take them seriously for many of their new projects.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 19, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Yup, looks like that's what I'll be doing
> 
> Following everything that was discussed here about the melting connectors of the 4090 (and possibly of the 4080 as well):


There have been more than 50 instances of that problem. NVidia is attempting to down-play the seriousness of the issue. The reality is, that connector is poorly designed and makers needs to revert to the previous PCIe connectors.


----------



## P4-630 (Nov 19, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Whatever they have in stock is selling for much higher prices.


That's it, they have them in stock, they don't sell well at these prices in my country...


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## Omga4000 (Nov 19, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> That's it, they have them in stock, they don't sell well at these prices in my country...


I don't believe they are selling them for the inflated price in the US either, but I have no way to verify this.
I guess the fact they are still in stock for the inflated prices means they aren't, but who knows how many those scalpers bought and have in stock..


----------



## P4-630 (Nov 19, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I don't believe they are selling them for the inflated price in the US either, but I have no way to verify this.
> I guess the fact they are still in stock for the inflated prices means they aren't, but who knows how many those scalpers bought and have in stock..


These are actually online stores in my country that have them in stock and sells them at those prices in this list and isn't like fleabay....


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

64K said:


> Kind of hard to feel sorry for Intel.


I agree, but it is a nice reply\challenge to whom say that you 'always prefer the underdog'.
Just another misconception that flow around and treated as absolute truth like a rule of nature.


----------



## sepheronx (Nov 19, 2022)

64K said:


> Concerning the console shortage in the past, part of that was the impact of the Pandemic and difficulty in getting chips.


Still same issue now.  I know Sony said they will fix it but it is still being scalped for crying out loud.  Prices at least locally are back to normal and scalpers trying to just get a cost even but still.

Xbox Series X is easy to get though.  But because it also has no games and any games it has is already on PC.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Nov 19, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Didn't we say we're ignoring this YouTube channel?
> 
> I can confirm this is the same in my country (US, WA). There is no stock at all for the 4080's as well.
> I do see a 1,400$ one from ASUS going back in stock sometimes, but it is also disappearing quickly when it does show up.
> ...



If the info is true about the 4080s having such a significant less amount of inventory sold to retailers then it's not hard to imagine that most (if not all) online retailer sites for the US have sold out of the 4080s. If the 30k number is true on released 4080s from Nvidia, spread that amount out across the world, then trying to find one will be difficult for most people at MSRP or AiB listed prices.

If the cards truly were selling well, the local Micro Center stores would be completely out of them and ebay/amazon/newegg/walmart (and whatever other big name site that allows third party scalpers) would be flooded with all the cards and they too would be selling for a nice premium.

Last I checked my local Micro Center's website on Thursday afternoon, they had 66 4080s in stock. As of right now, it shows they have 44. They've been constantly sitting on around 4 dozen+ cards since the 4080 launched.
The Flushing, NY store currently shows 111+ 4080s in stock
The Denver, CO store currently shows 78 4080s in stock
Tustin, CA shows 16 in stock
Duluth, GA shows 77 in stock
Westmont, IL shows 74+ in stock
Columbus, OH shows 113+ in stock
(stores listed with a + at the end of the count, they have one or more models that are listed as 25+ in stock so the exact number isn't known)

That's just 7 out of the 25 Micro Center locations and there's over 500 4080s listed in stock as being available.

Micro Center does not sell new items such as GPUs or CPUs online. They're in store only. Also, my Micro Center has a 1 GPU limit per household rule for a 90 day period (hopefully all of them do for when the GPU market is slim).

The 4080s just aren't moving, but for those (like yourself) that don't have a Micro Center near by and you're left to only being able to obtain a GPU by online sources, if you can't get one into your cart fast enough before the scalpers, then you left with 1 of 3 options:
1) Just don't buy the card
2) Keep trying your luck online to land a MSRP model
3) Give in to the scalpers and overpay for a card that isn't selling well, but you may not be aware they're not selling well because all online retailers for MSRP models are sold out even though lots of inventory is sitting in a brick and mortar stores.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Nov 19, 2022)

I don't dislike the card and actually I feel given the specs it performs closer to the 4090 than I expected other than when RT is used at 4k in some titles. The problem with it to me is it offers 0 progress vs the 3080 in the performance per $$$ and is priced too close to the 4090 to be worth buying. 

In a vacuum it's a pretty great card but I have a feeling the 7900XTX will make it look bad in rasterization making it a card only for people who want to max out settings with RT at 1440p otherwise you go AMD or get a 4090 instead.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 19, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> At least the 7900 XTX is launching with the same MSRP as the 6900 XT did. When was the last time we saw that from Nvidia?


Probably when AMD gave them real compatition, someday in the past, so they were forced to keep it the same in order to sell.
Today NV is stronger so they 'cash in' as much has they can while it lasts.
AMD did the same with ZEN 3 when they had the advantage over Intel (until alder lake arrived) while bluntly neglecting the low and mid market.
With ZEN 4 the situation is only worse.
Try to look surprised.


----------



## 64K (Nov 19, 2022)

Great GPU

Shit price

/thread


----------



## Mussels (Nov 20, 2022)

Look at the AU prices


$3K for a 4090





$2.5k for a 4080





why would anyone getting a 4080 not feel like it's bad value compared to the 4090?

(3080 and 3090ti for comparison)


----------



## DemonicRyzen666 (Nov 20, 2022)

64K said:


> Great GPU
> 
> Shit price
> 
> /thread


We don't hate the gpu. We hate the price.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 20, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> We don't hate the gpu. We hate the price.


It's an integral part of the GPU, though.
Everyone would love a Chevrolet Bolt if it was 1$. The price cannot be separated from the product.

So.. Yha. The answer is just a bad performance-to-cost ratio.


----------



## HTC (Nov 20, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> It's an integral part of the GPU, though.
> Everyone would love a Chevrolet Bolt if it was 1$. The price cannot be separated from the product.
> 
> So.. Yha. The answer is just a bad performance-to-cost ratio.



A product can be "the best thing ever", but if it's priced "out of reach", it's useless, no?


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 20, 2022)

HTC said:


> A product can be "the best thing ever", but if it's priced "out of reach", it's useless, no?


That's exactly what I was saying, yes. Price is an important factor of a product just like everything else.


----------



## wolf (Nov 20, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> The last time Nvidia innovated





AusWolf said:


> Nvidia Ada on the other hand, is nothing more than Ampere on a die shrink.


I'm not sure that's entirely correct. 

Improvements to their RT pipeline are in Ada iirc, as well as, 4x tensor flops over 3090ti, vastly increased cache sizes, the new/vastly improved optical flow accelerator enabling DLSS3 FG, creating and launching FG, shader execution reordering, there's also the improvements to the power circuitry keeping possible insane power spikes better in check. 

Perhaps not massive changes in some people's book, but indisputably more than Ampere on a die shrink, and some are definitely innovative in my book.


----------



## lightning70 (Nov 20, 2022)

I personally didn't like it as it was a huge MSRP boost over 3080. performance is nice but over $1000 and expensive for many. Those who have more than $1000 can find and buy at the price of 4090 MSRP.


----------



## Steevo (Nov 20, 2022)

I don’t hate it, I like the competition, like that crypto is no longer raping our hardware for greed, like that companies are refocused on gaming instead of crypto.

As a product it’s overpriced but does contain an amazing amount of technology, GPUs have come a long way and the RT performance argument will only end with every product and game having a reasonable amount as it matures, just like tessellated concrete barriers.


----------



## phanbuey (Nov 20, 2022)

lightning70 said:


> I personally didn't like it as it was a huge MSRP boost over 3080. performance is nice but expensive for many over $1000. Those who have more than $1000 can find and buy at the MSRP price of 4090.


I agree - if you're going to spend $1200 then paying the extra $399 for 30-40% more performance is kind of a no brainer...

But also, it's way faster than a 3090TI, which is $1100 right now... so from that end $100 more for a much faster card also makes sense.


----------



## lightning70 (Nov 20, 2022)

phanbuey said:


> I agree - if you're going to spend $1200 then paying the extra $399 for 30-40% more performance is kind of a no brainer...
> 
> But also, it's way faster than a 3090TI, which is $1100 right now... so from that end $100 more for a much faster card also makes sense.


The 3090 used in my country is sold at a very good price. It is also used very little in mining. Not far behind the 3090 Ti. The 4080 is expensive here right now and the 4090 is more attractive. I currently have two cards GTX 1080 and RTX 3070 RTX 3070 is more than enough for me . Even the GTX 1080 at 1080p resolution is more than enough.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 20, 2022)

phanbuey said:


> I agree - if you're going to spend $1200 then paying the extra $399 for 30-40% more performance is kind of a no brainer...
> 
> But also, it's way faster than a 3090TI, which is $1100 right now... so from that end $100 more for a much faster card also makes sense.


It's a yes-brainer.
The 4090 isn't being sold for MSRP, so realistically you'd have to spend ~600-800$ more for the same 30-40% performance.

Not saying the 4080 is actually worth its price, but it's definitely not as easy as deciding between 4080 @ MSRP and 4090 @ MSRP, since they are non-existent.


----------



## phanbuey (Nov 20, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> It's a yes-brainer.
> The 4090 isn't being sold for MSRP, so realistically you'd have to spend ~600-800$ more for the same 30-40% performance.
> 
> Not saying the 4080 is actually worth its price, but it's definitely not as easy as deciding between 4080 @ MSRP and 4090 @ MSRP, since they are non-existent.



Sure, if you need a card today, then yes.  Soon it will just be to buy a $2200 4090 or a $1800 4080...


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 20, 2022)

phanbuey said:


> Sure, if you need a card today, then yes.  Soon it will just be to buy a $2200 4090 or a $1800 4080...


_Soon_™



neatfeatguy said:


> but for those (like yourself) that don't have a Micro Center near by and you're left to only being able to obtain a GPU by online sources


Following that, I just happened to come across Gigabyte's post while scrolling through Facebook.
They are "securing" GPUs for people in the US, but only in 19 states?
Why would they need to do that if there's so much stock?
CA, CO IL & OH are all states where according to your research has plenty of stock in Micro Center stores.

Very odd. Maybe they were instructed by nVidia to create the illusion of them being out of stock, but that's just me putting on my conspiracy hat.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 20, 2022)

wolf said:


> I'm not sure that's entirely correct.
> 
> *Improvements to their RT pipeline* are in Ada iirc, as well as, 4x tensor flops over 3090ti, vastly increased cache sizes, the new/vastly improved optical flow accelerator enabling DLSS3 FG, creating and launching FG, shader execution reordering, there's also the improvements to the power circuitry keeping possible insane power spikes better in check.
> 
> Perhaps not massive changes in some people's book, but indisputably more than Ampere on a die shrink, and some are definitely innovative in my book.


That's what they're telling us, although the block diagram is exactly the same, and the performance drop in each game with RT on compared to RT off appears to be exactly the same as it was on Ampere or Turing. So where's the improvement? As for power, the die shrink keeps that in check. I see no improvement at all.


----------



## ARF (Nov 20, 2022)

Because the customers feel that they are screwed. This is a rebadged RTX 4070 card which should be had for as low as 400-499$ but nvidia charges 3 times more!


----------



## nguyen (Nov 20, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> _Soon_™
> 
> 
> Following that, I just happened to come across Gigabyte's post while scrolling through Facebook.
> ...



Miners in my country are starting to dump used GPUs en masse, probably because of FTX collapse, used 3080 are selling for 400usd now. Might want hold out for cheap Ampere GPU


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 20, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I'm not sure if that's really the case.
> I'm nVidia-centric myself, but I am rooting for AMD as much as I can.
> I think the majority of us are just tired of nVidia's monopoly and trashing on its users.
> We want a decent competitor, not only in price-to-performance but also in pure performance.
> ...


There is a beautiful thing about PC hardware parts. Waiting is always profitable. Anyone with FOMO in this business just doesn't quite get how it works.

Waiting isn't just for financial advantages either.
- Post release support is better. Driver quality improves from launch ongoing. It isn't best at launch.
- Game support is better. Games will start using the hardware better over time, quite often a few years post launch. The likelihood of that being playable, also increases over time (see RT, even if its slow, there is progress) - even on the same GPU.
- Not early adopting is avoiding the fun stuff like a melting connector + accompanying correspondence with vendor/manufacturer and waiting for replacement, etc. The irony: being first, _might _mean being nowhere while others are gaming for their time.
- You're becoming a hunter instead of the prey; always on the prowl with money to burn, ready to jump on the tastiest snack. Prey buys at launch, diving deep into the marketing story to justify losing all the above advantages, and then gets the additional (even if minor-) stress of subsequent offers that complete the stack being quite a lot better, plus the effects of competition over sales (free games, etc.). See, for them, FOMO never ends. There is always something new around the corner. And that's the self-feeding/confirming cycle right there: must be first, because 'you were already waiting for so long' for release X/Y.

You've managed to break that cycle and you're now officially on the prowl


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 20, 2022)

Lots of 4080's in stock in UK. Very different times. It cheers me to see that people aren't swiping these £1300-1500 2nd tier GPUs from the shelves.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 20, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> There is a beautiful thing about PC hardware parts. Waiting is always profitable. Anyone with FOMO in this business just doesn't quite get how it works.
> 
> Waiting isn't just for financial advantages either.
> - Post release support is better. Driver quality improves from launch ongoing. It isn't best at launch.
> ...


I'd rephrase that as "buying a higher-end model of an outgoing series is better than a lower-end model of the incoming one". Now is the best time to grab an RDNA 2, or Ampere GPU. Other than that, you're right.


----------



## ThrashZone (Nov 20, 2022)

Hi,
None at bestbuy so plenty of suckers in the US standing in line 
Microcenter has some instock but third party so even more money.



nguyen said:


> Miners in my country are starting to dump used GPUs en masse, probably because of FTX collapse, used 3080 are selling for 400usd now. Might want hold out for cheap Ampere GPU


So do they also come with miners vbios to


----------



## wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> That's what they're telling us ....... although the block diagram is exactly the same ......... I see no improvement at all.



Of course it's what they're telling us, they designed the GPU. RT improvements almost certainly need to be accounted for in game code, the RT cores themselves definitely do now have increased capability relative to Ampere.



> NVIDIA engineers have developed three new features in the Ada RT Core to enable high-performance ray tracing of highly complex geometry:
> ● First, Ada’s Third-Generation RT Core features 2x Faster Ray-Triangle Intersection
> Throughput relative to Ampere; this enables developers to add more detail into their
> virtual worlds.
> ...



Also, a node shrink ≠ the improved power circuitry for spikes. The *massive *extra cache, the 4x improvement in tensor flops which outstrips the increase in tensor cores x clock speed, the 3x faster OFA..

Here's the Ada vs Ampere block Diagram, note the capabilities in the RT cores and the L0 i-cache.



You can choose to see no improvement if you want, but this is factually not a die shrunk Ampere despite how the swing of reactions go, it may share the vast majority or architectural design, but there are indisputable additions and differences, ergo in an absolute sense, not a die shrunk Ampere.

You can check out the NVIDIA ADA GPU ARCHITECTURE whitepaper for more info.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 21, 2022)

DemonicRyzen666 said:


> We don't hate the gpu. We hate don't the price. We hate reality.


Fix it.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 21, 2022)

wolf said:


> Of course it's what they're telling us, they designed the GPU. *RT improvements almost certainly need to be accounted for in game code,* the RT cores themselves definitely do now have increased capability relative to Ampere.



In other words, no games out now can support these new RT core improvements? I mean, that's fine for future titles but the PR mentioned RT improvements but the current performance increases in RT for ADA on current gen are brought through the sheer rasterisation uplift (as I mentioned somewhere previously when looking at % hit by turning RT on when comparing Ada and Ampere).


----------



## wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> In other words, no games out now can support these new RT core improvements? I mean, that's fine for future titles but the PR mentioned RT improvements but the current performance increases in RT for ADA on current gen are brought through the sheer rasterisation uplift (as I mentioned somewhere previously when looking at % hit by turning RT on when comparing Ada and Ampere).


That's my understanding for the time being too, RT in existing games effectively has the same performance hit as before, relative to raster perf, unless driver/game updates can and are made to leverage the new capabilities. My only point in this respect is that there are differences in Ada vs Ampere.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 21, 2022)

wolf said:


> Of course it's what they're telling us, they designed the GPU. RT improvements almost certainly need to be accounted for in game code, the RT cores themselves definitely do now have increased capability relative to Ampere.


So if I'm telling my boss that I've worked 2x harder today compared to yesterday, he has to believe me because I said it?



wolf said:


> Here's the Ada vs Ampere block Diagram, note the capabilities in the RT cores and the L0 i-cache.
> 
> View attachment 271083


OK, they changed the cache size. And? It's still just Ampere 2.0. RT cores are not detailed in the diagram, so whether anything has changed or not, I wouldn't know. All I know is, RT performance in games is exactly the same as it has been since Turing.



wolf said:


> You can choose to see no improvement if you want, but this is factually not a die shrunk Ampere despite how the swing of reactions go, it may share the vast majority or architectural design, but there are indisputable additions and differences, ergo in an absolute sense, not a die shrunk Ampere.


Or rather, you can choose to see differences that aren't showing on the block diagram instead of seeing that the only improvement we have in game performance comes from more and higher-clocked cores. From this point of view, the whitepaper doesn't add much value, the same way AMD's RDNA 3 improvements (MCM, decoupled shader clock, etc) won't add much value either if they don't translate to observable performance and/or price (edit: but at least they're something you can see).


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Lots of 4080's in stock in UK. Very different times. It cheers me to see that people aren't swiping these £1300-1500 2nd tier GPUs from the shelves.



I believe people are getting really desperately exhausted and tired of all that reality surrounding and the most normal reaction is to skip this series.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 21, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> In other words, no games out now can support these new RT core improvements? I mean, that's fine for future titles but the PR mentioned RT improvements but the current performance increases in RT for ADA on current gen are brought through the sheer rasterisation uplift (as I mentioned somewhere previously when looking at % hit by turning RT on when comparing Ada and Ampere).


I don't recall anywhere mentioned that you need spacial RT code in already enabled RT games in order to use the so called "new RT core improvement".
It's like saying you need special new code to utilize the extra IPC lift in new CPU's.
No new RT feture were introduce by Microsoft and Ada support all existing RT features.

Please correct me if I'm wrong or mis inform.


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I don't recall anywhere mentioned that you need spacial RT code in already enabled RT games. To use the so called "new RT core improvement".
> It's like saying you need special new cod to utilize the extra IPC lift in new CPU's.
> No new RT feture by Microsoft and Ada support all existing RT features.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong or mis inform.



I think a newer driver can help.


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Nov 21, 2022)

Existence of this thread shows how privileged some are to not see a problem with blowing tons of money on entertainment that isn't even a halo product.

4080 literally costs more than a monthly paycheck I get (not a US citizen though).


----------



## Dirt Chip (Nov 21, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> Existence of this thread shows how privileged some are to not see a problem with blowing tons of money on entertainment that isn't even a halo product.
> 
> 4080 literally costs more than a monthly paycheck I get (not a US citizen though).


To help with some reason- many game as a hobby in the little time they have (see children) as for a serious hobby those 1000-2000$ aren't so big or exception. Simple as that. They can save of course but why? Every hobby is in it's core a 'bad investment' from economic view point.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 21, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I don't recall anywhere mentioned that you need spacial RT code in already enabled RT games in order to use the so called "new RT core improvement".
> It's like saying you need special new code to utilize the extra IPC lift in new CPU's.
> No new RT feture were introduce by Microsoft and Ada support all existing RT features.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong or mis inform.


My reply was in comment to another member. Regardless, if driver update is all that is needed, why did Nvidia not provide updated drivers for reviews?

Also, there are hardware elements in Ada that enable DLSS3, which cannot be done by Ampere, so certainly, there may be coding specific routes to enable full functionality of the physical changes.


----------



## nguyen (Nov 21, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> In other words, no games out now can support these new RT core improvements? I mean, that's fine for future titles but the PR mentioned RT improvements but the current performance increases in RT for ADA on current gen are brought through the sheer rasterisation uplift (as I mentioned somewhere previously when looking at % hit by turning RT on when comparing Ada and Ampere).



Yeah no, current RT games are hybrid Raster + RT where RT effects are added on top of a rasterized frame.

4090 with >2x the RT capability of 3090Ti can halves the RT rendering time, but the final rendering time is still affected by rasterization performance.

For example, 4090 in CP2077 @ 4K (4090 TPU review)
Native 71.2FPS = 14ms
RT ON 41.8FPS = 24ms
Cost of RT = *+10ms*

Compare to 3090Ti
Native 47.3FPS = 21.1ms
RT ON 24FPS = 41.6ms
Cost of RT = *+20.5ms*

If we compare 4090 to 3090Ti in Path Traced games (or pure RT workload), 4090 will easily beat 3090Ti by more than 2x.

ADA has Shaders Execution Reordering (Intel also has something similar) which can cut the RT rendering time by another 30-40%, which can be easily integrated into existing games, just need devs to update game engine with a few codes.

Now regarding 7900XTX, AMD didn't improve their RT capability (or very minor), that's why 7900XTX could beat 3090Ti by 50% in raster, but RT ON and they both tied in CP2077, meaning in pure RT workload, 3090Ti is still superior to 7900XTX. However 7900XTX can still come out on top when games have very limited RT effects (FC6, RE Village, Watchdogs Legion). IMO 7900XTX is a dissapointment, AMD put everything on raster and still lose to 4090, in raster.


----------



## wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> So if I'm telling my boss that I've worked 2x harder today compared to yesterday, he has to believe me because I said it?


Strawman bad. 

I'll leave it at this, Ada is factually different architecture from Ampere, perhaps not by much, but it's not a disputable fact, facts don't need you to agree with them. You can feel free to downplay the differences or even dismiss them, but they exist.


----------



## Why_Me (Nov 21, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Nobody Wants NVIDIA's $1199 US GeForce RTX 4080: Despite Lower Shipments, Retailers & Stores Are Stocked With Cards
> 
> 
> NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 4080 is witnessing poor sales days after its launch and that is very much due to its absurd $1199 US pricing.
> ...


The man in the video mentions Microcenter multiple times.  Microcenter is walk in only and seeing how there's less than 12 US states that have a Microcenter store.

Here in the US only the budget brand Zotac 4080's are anywhere near MSRP.



			https://pcpartpicker.com/search/?q=RTX+4080


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2022)

wolf said:


> Of course it's what they're telling us, they designed the GPU. RT improvements almost certainly need to be accounted for in game code, the RT cores themselves definitely do now have increased capability relative to Ampere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of these changes do not translate to in-game performance differences. The core is 95% the same, and the other 5% is of questionable significance. Not even you know what's really going to change with the mentioned changes, but it looks complicated, so surely it must be tremendous. After all, they and you say ' vastly improved'...

Marketing, man. Come on. Its clear that the block diagrams are almost identical, so hardware wise this is not much more than a shrink and some cache changes; a larger cache is not really a change to the die, its just using free space to add more of a thing it already had. We have seen this before, every arch iterates on the last, and lots of iterations are built on an _identical floor plan_. Ada is one of those, and the fact its identical results in end performance that is only elevated by simply adding more of it all. The 'new things' only come into play with specific dev implementations; for all we know its nothing more than a featureset/programmable upgrade with cache to hold it. There is no new hardware here, nor is its configuration in the SM.


----------



## wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Nvidia Ada on the other hand, is nothing more than Ampere on a die shrink


So we started with this


Vayra86 said:


> The core is 95% the same


And ended up with this. This I can accept, as they're not identical. Happy to keep an eye out for real world examples of game performance that prove it.


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Yeah no, current RT games are hybrid Raster + RT where RT effects are added on top of a rasterized frame.
> 
> 4090 with >2x the RT capability of 3090Ti can halves the RT rendering time, but the final rendering time is still affected by rasterization performance.
> 
> ...



Percentage difference between first and second case is 71.4% vs. 97.1%. Improvement but not that large.

I still think that we don't need ray-tracing at this stage with available technologies only "4nm" and worse.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Yeah no, current RT games are hybrid Raster + RT where RT effects are added on top of a rasterized frame.
> 
> 4090 with >2x the RT capability of 3090Ti can halves the RT rendering time, but the final rendering time is still affected by rasterization performance.
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing half render time because of 2x RT capability, you need to look at a relative difference, not absolute, since the cards also have improved raster/overall perf.

3090ti:  47,3/24 = 1,97 is the factor/cost of RT compared to raster only
4090: 71,2/41,8 = 1,70 is the factor/cost of RT compared to raster only

Still its clear this a move forward, I do agree. But its very minor.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 21, 2022)

wolf said:


> Strawman bad.
> 
> I'll leave it at this, Ada is factually different architecture from Ampere, perhaps not by much, but it's not a disputable fact, facts don't need you to agree with them. You can feel free to downplay the differences or even dismiss them, but they exist.


All I'm saying is, Nvidia saying that there are improvements, and me seeing them with my own eyes are two different things.



Vayra86 said:


> All of these changes do not translate to in-game performance differences. The core is 95% the same, and the other 5% is of questionable significance. Not even you know what's really going to change with the mentioned changes, but it looks complicated, so surely it must be tremendous. After all, they and you say ' vastly improved'...
> 
> Marketing, man. Come on. Its clear that the block diagrams are almost identical, so hardware wise this is not much more than a shrink and some cache changes; a larger cache is not really a change to the die, its just using free space to add more of a thing it already had. We have seen this before, every arch iterates on the last, and lots of iterations are built on an _identical floor plan_. Ada is one of those, and the fact its identical results in end performance that is only elevated by simply adding more of it all. The 'new things' only come into play with specific dev implementations; for all we know its nothing more than a featureset/programmable upgrade with cache to hold it. There is no new hardware here, nor is its configuration in the SM.


This!


----------



## wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> Percentage difference between first and second case is 71.4% vs. 97.1%. Improvement but not that large.





Vayra86 said:


> 3090ti: 47,3/24 = 1,97 is the factor/cost of RT compared to raster only
> 4090: 71,2/41,8 = 1,70 is the factor/cost of RT compared to raster only
> 
> Still its clear this a move forward, I do agree. But its very minor.


But the difference between 71.4% and 97.1% is around 37%, I'd say that's not too shabby at all for something so early on if Ada can render RT 35-40% faster. Definitely not a die shrunk Ampere.


----------



## nguyen (Nov 21, 2022)

wolf said:


> But the difference between 71.4% and 97.1% is around 37%, I'd say that's not too shabby at all for something so early on if Ada can render RT 35-40% faster. Definitely not a die shrunk Ampere.



Lol don't get too hung up on the die shrunk part, 1080Ti was litterally a die shrunk Maxwell and it took AMD 3.5 years to make something better.

I sure hope Nvidia has a hidden uarch upgrade up their sleeves, just so they can remain monolithic and still getting a huge perf jump next gen, going chiplets is kinda a waste of silicon IMO.


----------



## sLowEnd (Nov 21, 2022)

The 4080 is a good card, just a tad expensive. That's about the gist of it.


----------



## Why_Me (Nov 21, 2022)

sLowEnd said:


> The 4080 is a good card, just a tad expensive. That's about the gist of it.


This  ^^


----------



## neatfeatguy (Nov 21, 2022)

Why_Me said:


> The man in the video mentions Microcenter multiple times.  Microcenter is walk in only and seeing how there's less than 12 US states that have a Microcenter store.
> 
> Here in the US only the budget brand Zotac 4080's are anywhere near MSRP.
> 
> ...



That's the point though - the 4080s just aren't selling like Nvidia had hoped.

Just because Micro Center is limited to the number of states they're in, there are still 25 total stores. It doesn't matter that Micro Center does in-store only for sales because it was shown that with the GPU scarcity with Ampere, cards flew off the shelves at Micro Center. People were lining up outside on the delivery days (Tuesdays and Thursdays, if I remember correctly) every day for a chance to get any GPU for many months. I tried my luck a couple of times and I never got one, but the store workers told me every delivery day it's like this; 60+ people show up in the morning, get on the list to get randomly picked for the maybe 2 dozen cards they get in. This went on for months. Cards sold before they were ever put on the shelves for stock.

With all that in mind, people gobbled up the GPUs that Micro Center got in, especially for Nvidia cards.  If the 4080s were as hot as they appear to be simply due to the fact that you can't find them at online retailers, the 4080s at Micro Center stores would have all sold by now and you'd be able to find zero anywhere in the US.

The 4080s just aren't moving. Just because you can't find one online or for MSRP online, doesn't mean the cards are highly sought after. It just means that scalpers gobbled them up (along with some actual consumers that do in fact want one) and the online listings you see now are way over priced. If the 4080s were popular and hot, hard to get. Then why are the Micro Center stores still sitting on hundreds of them across all their store locations?


----------



## P4-630 (Nov 21, 2022)

They can't get them sold here


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 21, 2022)

nguyen said:


> For example, 4090 in CP2077 @ 4K (4090 TPU review)
> Native 71.2FPS = 14ms
> RT ON 41.8FPS = 24ms
> Cost of RT = *+10ms*
> ...


There's no doubt that Nvidia is continuing to invest in raytracing performance, but your example is not more than the theoretical RT performance increase. The clock speed ratio (2730 MHz vs 1980) multiplied by the ray tracing units ratio is 2.1 for CyberPunk. Shader Execution reordering (link to PDF), like Intel's Thread Sorting Unit, will be a good boost when it's implemented by game developers. It looks like Intel will be the only one to challenge Nvidia in ray tracing until AMD gets its act together.

*Edit*: After reading Nvidia's whitepaper on SER, I realized that their claims of it being like out of order execution for CPUs are overblown. OOE is an inherent property of the CPU and is not swiched on or off by an API call.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 21, 2022)

I think it's important to accept the 4080 is a powerful card; that efficiency is nuts - I'd love one but I'm not willing to pay over £1k for it. I used a small windfall when I bought my 2080ti (even then, I got it for near MSRP). But I said back then, I'd never again spend that money on a gfx card. IMO Nvidia has misjudged the market. Sure the colossal 4090 at MSRP is acceptable if it remains THE halo product. But the 4080 is ripping the piss.

I bought into GSync a few years back and have an older hardware limited monitor and it's the only reason I never jumped to a RX6 series card. But now, with the RX7 series knocking on the door, at a possible 900 dollar mark and it being way faster than a 6950XT, it's my target card. Sure, if the 4080 was 900 bucks, I'd have probably bought one to be honest. I'd have begrudged it but it would have got my cash. But to pay 400-600 more just for better Ray Tracing is ludicrous. And I think the gamers that aren't buying the 4080's know that.

You can talk about other NV tech but when it comes down to it, I want a card that smacks my current one in the face, is better than it at RT, and isn't over 1K. Simply put - Nvidia, IMO, totally misjudged the market with the 4080.


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> There's no doubt that Nvidia is continuing to invest in raytracing performance, but your example is not more than the theoretical RT performance increase. The clock speed ratio (2730 MHz vs 1980) multiplied by the ray tracing units ratio is 2.1 for CyberPunk. Shader Execution reordering (link to PDF), like Intel's Thread Sorting Unit, will be a good boost when it's implemented by game developers. It looks like Intel will be the only one to challenge Nvidia in ray tracing until AMD gets its act together.



You can always _disable_ the ray-tracing in the game settings menu


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> You can always _disable_ the ray-tracing in the game settings menu


Of course, the price makes AMD's shortcomings in RT easier to swallow, and for the 3060 and lower, ray tracing performance doesn't matter as much as rasterization performance.


----------



## P4-630 (Nov 21, 2022)

I want everything Ray-traced, even my desktop and windows.....


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> I want everything Ray-traced, even my desktop and windows.....



Yeah, at 1 FPS


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 21, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> That's the point though - the 4080s just aren't selling like Nvidia had hoped.
> 
> Just because Micro Center is limited to the number of states they're in, there are still 25 total stores. It doesn't matter that Micro Center does in-store only for sales because it was shown that with the GPU scarcity with Ampere, cards flew off the shelves at Micro Center. People were lining up outside on the delivery days (Tuesdays and Thursdays, if I remember correctly) every day for a chance to get any GPU for many months. I tried my luck a couple of times and I never got one, but the store workers told me every delivery day it's like this; 60+ people show up in the morning, get on the list to get randomly picked for the maybe 2 dozen cards they get in. This went on for months. Cards sold before they were ever put on the shelves for stock.
> 
> ...


They're all in stock at Scan UK as well, and all of them show "No customer review". The 4090 is sold out, though.


----------



## Hxx (Nov 21, 2022)

Why? I think the answer is pretty simple - it is not a good value in the high end.   
 It is also huge jump in price vs a 2 year old 3080 for the same or less performance increase : 50% or so increase in perf.  vs 60% or so bump in price .
Also the real issue  I see is nvidia moving up the bar and going forward allowing them to price the next xx80 card at anywhere around  1.2k instead of the typical small price bump … basically 5080 and so on will likely no longer be “affordable” high end GPUs


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

Hxx said:


> Why? I think the answer is pretty simple - it is not a good value in the high end.
> It is also huge jump in price vs a 2 year old 3080 for the same or less performance increase : 50% or so increase in perf.  vs 60% or so bump in price .
> Also the real issue  I see is nvidia moving up the bar and going forward allowing them to price the next xx80 card at anywhere around  1.2k instead of the typical small price bump … basically 5080 and so on will likely no longer be “affordable” high end GPUs



That will be the end of nvidia as a consumer company. It can still exist but all products will go to other markets, similar to how no one knows about IBM.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> That will be the end of nvidia as a consumer company. It can still exist but all products will go to other markets, similar to how no one knows about IBM.


I think what they're trying to do is be the Rolls Royce of GPUs, while AMD is the Mustang.

Let me just drop this here:


----------



## Tomgang (Nov 21, 2022)

Guys take a look at this rtx 4080 review. It amazing and apselutely hilarious. Bitwit really risking being baned by nvidia for new gpu's with this.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 21, 2022)

Tomgang said:


> Guys take a look at this rtx 4080 review. It amazing and apselutely hilarious. Bitwit really risking being baned by nvidia for new gpu's with this.


This made my day!


----------



## Tomgang (Nov 21, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> This made my day!


My day two. I got good laugh from this. 

I know I have a rtx 4090. But it was either that or I would have been looking over to amd. 4080 is simply to high and stupid priced according to where a 4080 should have been.


----------



## ARF (Nov 21, 2022)

It's a crisis, it's a recession, people have no money, the market is flooded with second-hand mining GFX cards, this particular card is heavily overpriced. What is nvidia actually thinking? It is in a process of destroying its reputation.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> It's a crisis, it's a recession, people have no money, the market is flooded with second-hand mining GFX cards, this particular card is heavily overpriced. What is nvidia actually thinking? It is in a process of destroying its reputation.


They were probably thinking that miners would buy up all 30-series stock by now, so they could score the early bird point on AMD's 7000 series. Instead, mining crashed, 30-series stock is still there, so they had a choice of either delaying the 40-series launch and let AMD cash in on being the early bird, or release the new series alongside the old one at higher prices. They're biting their own tail either way. The only way out with intact reputation in my opinion, is massive price drops along the entire lineup (old and new) to match AMD in value, but that would hurt their pride and wallet a bit too much.


----------



## GhostRyder (Nov 21, 2022)

Yea, there have been alot of vides on the subject but here is my two cents.

1: It is a smaller GPU node, meaning it supposed to be a lower end card (This is how they have done it for quite a few cycles)
2: This is a huge jump in price from the previous XX80 series.
3: The XX80 series has last couple of generations been better than top tier cards from last generation (Heck the XX70 series normally matched or beat as well)
4: Over 1k is alot to ask the normal person.  That price category is normally reserved for the very top end and those people are going to pay the extra couple hundred bucks to get the big jump in performance.  Most people aren't willing to pay over 1k for a video card especially when its obvious there will be a 4080ti at some point.
5: There is a recession, people are holding onto their wallets tight right now.  Spending a bunch on money on a video card is a low priority.
6: There are better price to performance option from AMD right now for the people that normally want that range.
7: People have already heard about the RX 7900 XT and XTX, now they are waiting and seeing.

Personally, I think nVidia made a huge error on this card.  They shouldn't have jumped the price for this series as far as they did and they are paying the price.  People are tired of these huge price jumps year after year and they finally hit a breaking point.  Its hard to justify this card regardless of the performance right now.  I am on the bandwagon of refusing to buy it and buying an AMD card this round just because of the price jump.


----------



## wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Lol don't get too hung up on the die shrunk part, 1080Ti was litterally a die shrunk Maxwell and it took AMD 3.5 years to make something better.


It's not so much the die shrunk part, I get hung up on misinformation and have a strong desire to correct it. 

Also seems like AMD is still as competitive as ever, but Samsung 8nm was clearly less optimal than desired, so they're caught about a half step behind or so. Hopefully at the very least their products encourage Nvidia's to come down.


----------



## Psychoholic (Nov 22, 2022)

I wish people would hate the 4080s a little more so i can have a chance at getting a 4080 founders from Best Buy.. lol


----------



## nguyen (Nov 22, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> There's no doubt that Nvidia is continuing to invest in raytracing performance, but your example is not more than the theoretical RT performance increase. The clock speed ratio (2730 MHz vs 1980) multiplied by the ray tracing units ratio is 2.1 for CyberPunk. Shader Execution reordering (link to PDF), like Intel's Thread Sorting Unit, will be a good boost when it's implemented by game developers. It looks like Intel will be the only one to challenge Nvidia in ray tracing until AMD gets its act together.
> 
> *Edit*: After reading Nvidia's whitepaper on SER, I realized that their claims of it being like out of order execution for CPUs are overblown. OOE is an inherent property of the CPU and is not swiched on or off by an API call.



Yes that was my point, ADA has bigger improvement in RT than Rasterization (4090 has 2.4x RT TFLOPS and 2.1x FP32 TFLOPS over 3090Ti), that fact is often obfuscated when looking at FPS in current hybrid Raster+RT games.

Nvidia will be pushing for even more RT effects that will push the gap between 4090 and 3090Ti further, that games with advanced RT will only be playable with DLSS3 LOL. CP2077 RT Overdrive will the be first of them.

Just like Turing, ADA is built for the future with techs that are not currently utilized, Rasterization looks like second thought for Nvidia, yet they still reign supreme there too


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Nov 22, 2022)

For the same reason people hated the '3080 in 2020, I guess. Extremely expensive and that was before '21 even came along to wreck the video card market!


----------



## evernessince (Nov 22, 2022)

phanbuey said:


> I agree - if you're going to spend $1200 then paying the extra $399 for 30-40% more performance is kind of a no brainer...
> 
> But also, it's way faster than a 3090TI, which is $1100 right now... so from that end $100 more for a much faster card also makes sense.



Who the heck is spending $1,100 on a 3090 Ti?  Looking at the eBay sold listings the average sale price over the last month is $680 USD and many of those are new.  Nvidia's inventory doubled YoY, they are withholding cards.  Anyone buying a 3090 ti at $1,100 is getting absolutely fleeced. 

Even putting that aside, spending $1,100 on a last gen flagship is absolutely nuts.


----------



## 64K (Nov 22, 2022)

Cards are being sold for stupid high prices here in America. New retail in the box 4080s are going for between $1,300 and $2,000. On Ebay it's the same thing (sold prices) and the 3090 Ti new in box on Ebay it is the same.

I wish that I could say that gamers were rejecting these silly prices but they are not.

The 4080 is a midrange Ada. Nvidia has been deceiving gamers ever since the GTX 680.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 22, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> I want everything Ray-traced, even my desktop and windows.....



But we have that already!

Look


----------



## wolf (Nov 22, 2022)

64K said:


> I wish that I could say that gamers were rejecting these silly prices but they are not.


Considered at a worldwide level these cards are absolutely being rejected by the majority of people. Nvidia we're always guaranteed to sell some, but in various stores across the US, as well as other major markets like UK/Aus, they're pretty easy to come across from retailers. The reputable shop where I got my Day 1 3080 which evaporated from the site which felt like it was DOS'd within about 30 minutes, going on a week later most 4080's you can walk into a store and buy. Doesn't really help that at least here, they're only about 20-25% cheaper than the 4090. Now that the initial wave is fairly settled, or at least will be in days to weeks tops, Nvidia and partners have a big problem, how are they going to move these cards without sizeable discounts. If AMD's launch stock is priced at MSRP and plentiful, even bigger problem. Plentiful remains to be seen but I'm sure hoping it is.


----------



## HTC (Nov 22, 2022)

Tomgang said:


> Guys take a look at this rtx 4080 review. It amazing and apselutely hilarious. Bitwit really risking being baned by nvidia for new gpu's with this.



This is glorious ...


----------



## GhostRyder (Nov 22, 2022)

64K said:


> Cards are being sold for stupid high prices here in America. New retail in the box 4080s are going for between $1,300 and $2,000. On Ebay it's the same thing (sold prices) and the 3090 Ti new in box on Ebay it is the same.
> 
> I wish that I could say that gamers were rejecting these silly prices but they are not.
> 
> The 4080 is a midrange Ada. Nvidia has been deceiving gamers ever since the GTX 680.


Yea, I agree with you.  Its been a slow game for awhile with the prices slowly creeping up.  The reality is they just made an error thinking they would have similar demand to 2020/21 where they could price the cards where they wanted and they would still sell out.

This is like that old saying, if you throw a frog in boiling water, he will jump out, but if you put him in a pot of cool water and slowly turn the temperature he will die.  Well, Nvidia decided to go from medium heat to high and most jumped out.



wolf said:


> Considered at a worldwide level these cards are absolutely being rejected by the majority of people. Nvidia we're always guaranteed to sell some, but in various stores across the US, as well as other major markets like UK/Aus, they're pretty easy to come across from retailers. The reputable shop where I got my Day 1 3080 which evaporated from the site which felt like it was DOS'd within about 30 minutes, going on a week later most 4080's you can walk into a store and buy. Doesn't really help that at least here, they're only about 20-25% cheaper than the 4090. Now that the initial wave is fairly settled, or at least will be in days to weeks tops, Nvidia and partners have a big problem, how are they going to move these cards without sizeable discounts. If AMD's launch stock is priced at MSRP and plentiful, even bigger problem. Plentiful remains to be seen but I'm sure hoping it is.


Yea, I have seen them at Microcenter on the shelf even for MSRP.  The scalpers seem to be confused because they keep putting these high prices on them and I always respond "You realize you can pick up one of these anywhere for MSRP"

At this point, they have a choice to make and they have had two setbacks with this launch.  The bigger question will be what will the RTX 4070 (Or 4070ti) be priced at especially if we believe the 7900 XT and XTX will be competitive especially at the price.


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## AusWolf (Nov 22, 2022)

GhostRyder said:


> At this point, they have a choice to make and they have had two setbacks with this launch.  The bigger question will be what will the RTX 4070 (Or 4070ti) be priced at especially if we believe the 7900 XT and XTX will be competitive especially at the price.


They can't release the 4070 (Ti) before 30-series stock is gone from stores, otherwise they either 1. end up with a 4080-like fiasco, or 2. 30-series stock will never clear. As a matter of fact, they should have waited with the 4080 as well - they're just too greedy to do such a thing right before the RDNA 3 launch.


----------



## Tomgang (Nov 22, 2022)

HTC said:


> This is glorious ...


It's was really funny and there is some truth to it as well.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 22, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> They can't release the 4070 (Ti) before 30-series stock is gone from stores, otherwise they either 1. end up with a 4080-like fiasco, or 2. 30-series stock will never clear. As a matter of fact, they should have waited with the 4080 as well - they're just too greedy to do such a thing right before the RDNA 3 launch.



Yeah, the last gen is still being propped up at unreasonable prices, to keep Ada at it's crazy price point. In context, 3090ti, 3090, and generally, the 3080ti are all at or above £1k in the UK. That's three last gen, no longer top tier cards at £1k or above. Which, of course, means the humble 3080 is still not lower than it's original MSRP. 

I appreciate Nvidia are beholden to make money for their shareholders but as a company, they have to be realistic and also wary of the backlash that is happening.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 22, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Yeah, the last gen is still being propped up at unreasonable prices, to keep Ada at it's crazy price point. In context, 3090ti, 3090, and generally, the 3080ti are all at or above £1k in the UK. That's three last gen, no longer top tier cards at £1k or above. Which, of course, means the humble 3080 is still not lower than it's original MSRP.
> 
> I appreciate Nvidia are beholden to make money for their shareholders but as a company, they have to be realistic and also wary of the backlash that is happening.


Agreed. I think they were expecting people to look at the 4080 and think _"ooh, it's a bit too steep, I'll just get a 3090 instead"_. They never expected them to go _"f*** you, Nvidia, I'm not playing this game anymore"_.


----------



## GhostRyder (Nov 22, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> They can't release the 4070 (Ti) before 30-series stock is gone from stores, otherwise they either 1. end up with a 4080-like fiasco, or 2. 30-series stock will never clear. As a matter of fact, they should have waited with the 4080 as well - they're just too greedy to do such a thing right before the RDNA 3 launch.


I thought I heard that card was expected Q1 2023, I think you are correct they are being slow because they have a ton of the old stock, but I think they are going to have their hands tied soon because of competition.  I mean realistically, I think they have too much to really burn through in a reasonable amount of time (Just my opinion) and something has to give considering the used market for these cards.



the54thvoid said:


> Yeah, the last gen is still being propped up at unreasonable prices, to keep Ada at it's crazy price point. In context, 3090ti, 3090, and generally, the 3080ti are all at or above £1k in the UK. That's three last gen, no longer top tier cards at £1k or above. Which, of course, means the humble 3080 is still not lower than it's original MSRP.
> 
> I appreciate Nvidia are beholden to make money for their shareholders but as a company, they have to be realistic and also wary of the backlash that is happening.


Totally agree, I see prices on used are getting decent but the new cards seem to be holding firm on the top end.  I mean I think at this point they really need to cut the old cards prices and just move on because with how tight people are holding onto their wallets and the fact 4XXX series is out people just arent going to drop money on previous generation stuff that is priced as high as it is.  I mean I considered grabbing a 3090ti or something for a decent price if they came down but for the prices I might as well get a 4080 or 4090.


----------



## ARF (Nov 22, 2022)

lol

Gaming PC with Radeon RX 6900XT GPU can still cost less than GeForce RTX 4080 alone - VideoCardz.com 










Everyone must hate it now even more lol


----------



## TriCyclops (Nov 22, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> *EDIT*:
> Since people continue commenting and sometimes recommend the same thing to me, please note the following message I had posted yesterday.
> Regardless, feel free to continue discussing this matter as you please. Turned out to be an interesting topic.
> 
> ...


it's too expensive


----------



## ARF (Nov 22, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Now here's my (logical?) counter-argument:
> 
> The 4080 is better than even a 3090 Ti which was released at an MSRP of 1,999$. People were not as negative towards the 3090 Ti as they are over the 4080.



This is the opposite of how things had worked before and the chain of events which led to progress.
If you think deeper, you will understand that what you are showing is extremely unsustainable and if they followed this logic, the RTX 480 should have cost 100 000 $ by now.


----------



## sepheronx (Nov 22, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Agreed. I think they were expecting people to look at the 4080 and think _"ooh, it's a bit too steep, I'll just get a 3090 instead"_. They never expected them to go _"f*** you, Nvidia, I'm not playing this game anymore"_.


Not many people are telling Jenson to pound sand. Instead most are still on their knees and saying "please Jenson, all over my face!

We got members here who will buy the most expensive gaming gpu every 2 years. There are more than enough people all over like that.  Nvidia doesn't care and will continue the trend of expensive GPU's. AMD will capitalize on selling it for slightly cheaper but still overpriced too.

Gaming PC's will either be for the rich or second hand.  Even if Nogamestation 5 and Xbox Series NG (No games) has no real titles worth a damn, it is back to being a cheaper and better option now.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> Not many people are telling Jenson to pound sand. Instead most are still on their knees and saying "please Jenson, all over my face!
> 
> We got members here who will buy the most expensive gaming gpu every 2 years. There are more than enough people all over like that.  Nvidia doesn't care and will continue the trend of expensive GPU's. AMD will capitalize on selling it for slightly cheaper but still overpriced too.
> 
> Gaming PC's will either be for the rich or second hand.  Even if Nogamestation 5 and Xbox Series NG (No games) has no real titles worth a damn, it is back to being a cheaper and better option now.


Strange then how did that work then when the average price of a gaming PC would easily reach above 1000 dollars 10-20 years ago? Somehow gaming (also on PC) is a growth market throughout the last two decades, and continues to be. You can build a much more capable gaming PC today for your 1200 dollars, in fact, you can hit straight for the sub top _today. _As shown above. You can even pick your resolution of choice, and if that is 1080p, you can run anything with a GPU from below midrange. That's unique in the last 20 years, by comparison; mid range would always mean dialing back settings. Today you can go ultra 1080p with a weaker card, and you could even run 1440p. I run 3440x1440 on a GPU like that (GTX 1080, now equal to the lowest parts in RDNA2) and its working just fine...

PC gaming is dead, Episode 167601610 - _How PC gaming yet again didn't die_

You have to understand that gaming performance has pretty much plateaud; almost every GPU can provide steady 60 FPS gaming, most can do high refresh at a resolution like 1080p, CPUs all carry sufficient threads to run anything throughout almost the entire product stack as well. The only real 'challenges' left for gaming PCs are running 4K and RT. So yeah, there is a small group jumping on every latest greatest to push that envelope, power to them. The immense, vast majority though is content not doing so at all, or at least, they will only do so if the price is right. Why do you think this 4080 backlash happens? Exactly because of that: peak pricing leaks to lower parts which kills upgrade paths for that larger group. But are they gaming less for it? I don't think so 

The PC gaming market does NOT rely on hardware, the market has been heavily saturated hardware wise for decades. PC Gaming, relies on games. Content. And there has never been more content released than there is today and in the last 10 years or so. Nothing is slowing down here contrary to what some FUD mongerers might lead you to believe, to boost sales.


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 23, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Today you can go ultra 1080p with a weaker card, and you could even run 1440p. I run 3440x1440


I'm running a GTX 1070 @ 1440p and even silly games like Dota / Path of Exile are a mess.
Definitely far from ultra settings for me.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I'm running a GTX 1070 @ 1440p and even silly games like Dota / Path of Exile are a mess.
> Definitely far from ultra settings for me.


I run DOTA2 at 3440x1440 all maxed out at 70~100 FPS... Surely the gap can't be that large to call it a mess?
PoE runs fine too at native.

TW Warhammer 3 was the first game where I felt like falling short a little, dipping to 30-35 FPS on the map and 40 ish in combat. With a few settings backed down from ultra, as well.

I don't use AA anymore though at this PPI/view distance, the benefit is negligible.

Maybe a 1070 is short on VRAM/bandwidth at 1440p?


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 23, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> all maxed out at 70~100 FPS


I really have no idea why I can't get near it. I maxed out my settings just to take a picture for you.

All it takes is for me to open up the new Diretide 2022 Collector's Cache page (where it's showing all sets at once) and my entire PC goes to hell.




Interestingly, the FPS isn't "terrible", but I am experiencing such enormous stutters that I can't deal with it.
Big teamfights are also near-impossible to handle and I often find myself dead without ever seeing how it happened.

PC latency of almost 1.4 seconds (?)
That's the first time I'm actually seeing it, will dig deeper. Perhaps the GPU isn't the issue here.

Note: I'm using borderless window mode. Going exclusive fullscreen does help a bit, but I despise it.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> I really have no idea why I can't get near it. I maxed out my settings just to take a picture for you.
> 
> All it takes is for me to open up the new Diretide 2022 Collector's Cache page (where it's showing all sets at once) and my entire PC goes to hell.
> View attachment 271380
> ...


This is just that godawful mess that DOTA 2 is now to peddle skins, more so than GPU performance I think. I've noticed slowdowns in DOTA since recently as well, but only in the menu screen/shops, and LOTS of buggy behaviour. I got errors returned from activating my free battle pass and the other goodies as well. It only confirms that I played the game right since Dota Allstars; _not spending a cent on it._ I just try to click the Play button after logging in, and don't dive into the horrible mess of screens, stats and armory. I have the battle pass now and indeed all menu behaviour is/feels heavier, slower. But in game its all peachy

Quite possible that it pushes a 1070 over the edge. I'm also on borderless btw


----------



## Omga4000 (Nov 23, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> I appreciate Nvidia are beholden to make money for their shareholders but as a company, they have to be realistic and also wary of the backlash that is happening.


They are a monopoly, it's a very difficult situation for consumers.
People want to game at higher resolutions, using higher presets (high-ultra), play VR, enable ray tracing, etc..
AMD can't really compete with them at the high end, and Intel is not even worth mentioning here.
So consumers are forced to decide between giving up on their wishes or succumb to the monopoly that is nVidia.

The backlash on the 4080 was only the beginning, and it seems to be right at the edge of "we'll let that one slide".
What I mean by that is that the ridiculous pricing of the 4080 won't make people boycott the company and stop buying nVidia cards altogether, it'll just make them not buy the 4080 specifically.
That being said, if they continue pushing it (with the 4070 maybe) the community will definitely respond accordingly and it may lead to irreversible damages to the company.

I hope the shareholders are aware of what's going on.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> They are a monopoly, it's a very difficult situation for consumers.
> People want to game at higher resolutions, using higher presets (high-ultra), play VR, enable ray tracing, etc..
> AMD can't really compete with them at the high end, and Intel is not even worth mentioning here.


This is a misconception, and its why we _think there is non-elastic demand._
The demand for GPUs and computer parts overall is almost _fully elastic. _Especially in the gaming space. The numbers prove it. Inflation up, hardware sales down. This isn't a loaf of bread, its luxury goods.

Game PCs are versatile. The only thing that drives demand in a big way for hot GPUs is a killer app. Where are they? There is not a single game 'must play' right now with heavy RT/high quality assets, and those that are, can run sans RT just fine on the vast majority of GPUs since Turing. And even run playable frames with it. Even on RDNA2 offerings, btw.

If the price isn't right, people simply won't buy. They'll postpone, unless there is _content they must play_.
Nvidia can only control the market demand in two ways: they can bring attractive products, or they can push attractive content. On the latter, they've been dropping bags of money and engineer trips to developers to get them to implement RT features on top of their game. On the former, Nvidia prices itself out of the market.
Past generations Nvidia had a third way to push demand: mining. When GPUs recoup themselves over time, price is irrelevant. Apparently they took that principle for granted and ran with it for ADA.

This isn't going anywhere unless products get acceptable pricing; mining is unprofitable in most parts of the target markets now especially with current energy prices.

For consumers, its brutally simple. They just wait on a nice deal, one that feels right to them. Not difficult at all.

This sheds some light on where gaming 'volume' is truly at.








						Most Played Games in 2022, Ranked by Average Monthly Players
					

Here we're recapping the 10 most played games of 2022, which we've based on data provided by publishers and various analytics sites.




					twinfinite.net
				




Not a single one pushes hard on 'RT' or fantastic graphics; there's barely even 2022 released content in it. Graphics are truly an afterthought, first and foremost is gameplay/concept: multiplayer/shooter, competitive. Competitive gaming relies on high FPS, not high graphics, in fact, the more competitive you get, the less frills you want on screen.

I can only laugh at the epeen top-end that thinks they matter to the market. They're being *played * Nvidia even says 'meant to be'...


----------



## QHNHL (Nov 23, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Why do people consider this to be such an enormous gap in performance? I mean - the price difference is 33%.


I saw this thread by accident. When I saw 33% price different, the math failed so hard that I had to create an account just to comment 
It is a 72% price hike. < 30% up lift, but coat 70% more  I'd rather not get robbed by Jensen. It must be his leather jacket addiction that he's blatantly trying to rob us with 4080 =))
I mean paying stupid money for a flagship is fine. It's a flagship. It's meant for people with stupid money, enthusiast grade for the same price per performance as a flagship is a different matter. In addition, Jensen would have gotten away with being scummy too, until 408012gb failed in performance that is 
CPU's are the perfect example of why Nvidia's logic for these prices is utter horsecrap. For the past 5 years, AMD and Intel have traded blows with CPU's, and every generation we've seen double digit gains. How much is an 8 core CPU today, vs 5 years ago? Roughly the SAME price as it was in 2017, for EXPONENTIALLY faster CPU's! Flagship cards being expensive is a non-issue, if lower down the stack cards are affordable, but this is not going to be the case. They already showed their hand with the "other 4080" that was "unlaunched." They literally tried to sell you a 4070 for $900. These prices are an issue.

Doodoo card , doodoo performance , doodoo price  Once again, I'd rather not get robbed by Jensen.

I now noticed that comment was made a while ago. Hopefully the math got cleared up.


----------



## thejynxed (Nov 23, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> They are a monopoly, it's a very difficult situation for consumers.
> People want to game at higher resolutions, using higher presets (high-ultra), play VR, enable ray tracing, etc..
> AMD can't really compete with them at the high end, and Intel is not even worth mentioning here.
> So consumers are forced to decide between giving up on their wishes or succumb to the monopoly that is nVidia.
> ...




I wouldn't quite count Intel down and out, with their first discrete card posting respectable 5600x-5700x performance numbers using barebones drivers. I think they really want to put a dent into this market, and they keep poaching talent away from both AMD and nVidia.


----------



## Bomby569 (Nov 23, 2022)

ARF said:


> lol
> 
> Gaming PC with Radeon RX 6900XT GPU can still cost less than GeForce RTX 4080 alone - VideoCardz.com
> 
> ...



We all get it, but at these prices only the whales are getting them, and that's the wrong crowd to be convinced to buy a last gen card.


----------



## Vayra86 (Nov 23, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> There isn't a shortage?
> How come 3080's, 3090's and 3090 TI's are still being sold well above MSRP, then?
> Even second-hand cards aren't that much of a steal.
> 
> ...


The mistake is wanting to buy cards AT launch, when the market is about to gain new movement. Right now you pay the novelty premium, and older cards are as you correctly said, the basis for this pricing.

I was looking at a €789,- Asrock formula 6900XT earlier today. Looks great right.. but then you consider there is an 899 and 999 msrp successor coming out with major perf increase. Not so great then.

Im waiting and with Christmas coming up (inflated demand!) it looks like January/Feb is the best moment: AMDs cards have had their launch bump, inventory is restocked post holiday, and the market dies down.

Edit: lol just realized this was a page 1 post  anyway.


----------



## the54thvoid (Nov 23, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Your mistake is wanting to buy cards AT launch, when the market is about to gain new movement. Right now you pay the novelty premium, and older cards are as you correctly said, the basis for this pricing.
> 
> I was looking at a €789,- Asrock formula 6900XT earlier today. Looks great right.. but then you consider there is an 899 and 999 msrp successor coming out with major perf increase. Not so great then.
> 
> Im waiting and with Christmas coming up (inflated demand!) it looks like January/Feb is the best moment: AMDs cards have had their launch bump, inventory is restocked post holiday, and the market dies down.



Ninja'd my thinking. I was trying to find the right forum to say just that - it's crazy that etailers are pricing 6900's and 6950's at £850-950 when the cards that will undoubtedly thrash them are coming in at roughly the same price point. I think there's still an ASrock 6950XTU for £1999 on one of the sites. I mean.... wtf?

Edit - my mistake - it was a 6900XTU (there was no 6950XTU). Also it's finally dropped from £1999.99 to £1199.99.


----------



## AnotherReader (Nov 23, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Ninja'd my thinking. I was trying to find the right forum to say just that - it's crazy that etailers are pricing 6900's and 6950's at £850-950 when the cards that will undoubtedly thrash them are coming in at roughly the same price point. I think there's still an ASrock 6950XTU for £1999 on one of the sites. I mean.... wtf?
> 
> Edit - my mistake - it was a 6900XTU (there was no 6950XTU). Also it's finally dropped from £1999.99 to £1199.99.


Over here, the prices are much more reasonable. The Sapphire Pulse 6800 XT could be found as low as $700 during the current sale and the ASRock Phantom Gaming D 6900 XT was $850. That works out to USD 522 and 634 respectively.


----------



## AusWolf (Nov 23, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> This is a misconception, and its why we _think there is non-elastic demand._
> The demand for GPUs and computer parts overall is almost _fully elastic. _Especially in the gaming space. The numbers prove it. Inflation up, hardware sales down. This isn't a loaf of bread, its luxury goods.
> 
> Game PCs are versatile. The only thing that drives demand in a big way for hot GPUs is a killer app. Where are they? There is not a single game 'must play' right now with heavy RT/high quality assets, and those that are, can run sans RT just fine on the vast majority of GPUs since Turing. And even run playable frames with it. Even on RDNA2 offerings, btw.
> ...


I agree, except for two things: top-end Nvidia products will always sell. People buy them because they're the fastest, and not because it makes sense. The second thing is, there are people who will always buy Nvidia, because they don't like change. There aren't many folks who would say the same about AMD. The question is, how much can Nvidia build on top-end product buyers, and other fans?

My end line is what you said about playability. Modern games don't need you to have the fastest of the fastest. With a 1080p monitor, even a 1060 is still fine most of the time. It's easy to hate these companies because of their overly expensive products, but the thing is, we don't really need them (and that's probably why they're so expensive).



thejynxed said:


> I wouldn't quite count Intel down and out, with their first discrete card posting respectable 5600x-5700x performance numbers using barebones drivers. I think they really want to put a dent into this market, and they keep poaching talent away from both AMD and nVidia.


For Intel GPUs to be competitive, they have to be available first.



the54thvoid said:


> Ninja'd my thinking. I was trying to find the right forum to say just that - it's crazy that etailers are pricing 6900's and 6950's at £850-950 when the cards that will undoubtedly thrash them are coming in at roughly the same price point. I think there's still an ASrock 6950XTU for £1999 on one of the sites. I mean.... wtf?
> 
> Edit - my mistake - it was a 6900XTU (there was no 6950XTU). Also it's finally dropped from £1999.99 to £1199.99.


It might not be a good time to score a 6900 or 6950 XT right now (unless you get it discounted), but I'm happy with my recent purchase of the 6750 XT, as the 7700 XT is still at least half a year away.


----------



## MarsM4N (Nov 24, 2022)

ARF said:


> Percentage difference between first and second case is 71.4% vs. 97.1%. Improvement but not that large.
> 
> I still think that we don't need ray-tracing at this stage with available technologies only "4nm" and worse.



Exactly.  The only 2 selling points Nvidia has going is superior gaming performance (at eye watering prices) & Ray Traycing.

The latter, *Ray Tracing*, might soon be lost when game developers switch to *Software Raytracing*. It has better performance and doesn't need any Nvidia RT cores (hardware raytracing). Only rasterization performance matters then. Nvidia has tons of RT supported games, but it only delivers in a handful of games. And remember, most games are cross developed for consoles. Consoles (PS5 & xBox X) got no RT cores, so they have to put their horses on software raytracing in the future. It will for sure be a game changer.










						Unreal Engine 5 Lumen vs Ray Tracing: Which One is Better? | Hardware Times
					

Epic’s Unreal Engine 4 was one of the most popular game engines of the last generation. It was widely used by AAA giants like EA, Ubisoft, and Microsoft, as well as tons of indie studios. With Unreal Engine 5 and its Lumen and Nanite technologies, Epic is looking to extend its dominance in the...




					www.hardwaretimes.com


----------



## bug (Nov 24, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Exactly.  The only 2 selling points Nvidia has going is superior gaming performance (at eye watering prices) & Ray Traycing.
> 
> The latter, *Ray Tracing*, might soon be lost when game developers switch to *Software Raytracing*. It has better performance and doesn't need any Nvidia RT cores (hardware raytracing). Only rasterization performance matters then. Nvidia has tons of RT supported games, but it only delivers in a handful of games. And remember, most games are cross developed for consoles. Consoles (PS5 & xBox X) got no RT cores, so they have to put their horses on software raytracing in the future. It will for sure be a game changer.
> 
> ...


That only handles a subset of Global Illumination. As noted in the article, it can't handle BVH very well, precisely because of "missing" hardware. And Global Illumination itself is just one part of RTRT.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 24, 2022)

Pricing over 500 for a top gpu is a waste of time.


----------



## bug (Nov 24, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> Pricing over 500 for a top gpu is a waste of time.


That's my general feeling, too. I mean, build luxury GPUs and sell to those who can afford them for whatever you wish. But do not force the casual player to pay more than $500 (ok, maybe $600).


----------



## Omga4000 (Dec 12, 2022)

Aaaaaaaand Ray-Tracing is trash.
The 4080 is ~17% stronger for ~20% more money.






I'd still probably return it and wait for an RTX 4090, but very disappointed with the AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX. Was hoping for better competition.
It's great in non-RT games, though. Worth it if you don't care about RT, just because of the lower price.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Dec 13, 2022)

17% isnt that massive


----------



## wolf (Dec 13, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> 17% isnt that massive


It doesn't seem like much when averaged which includes the AMD sponsored titles with super light use of effects where the 7900XTX holds it's head up very high vs Ada, but in the heavier games, it loses by a lot more. I really hope AMD sponsored games don't continue the gimping trend for the next 2 years, but seeing this I fear they will.

From the TPU review - RT on
Control - 34.8fps vs 45.2fps - 4080 is 29.9% faster
CP2077 - 20.0fps vs 29.1fps - 4080 is 45.5% faster

From the Techspot review - RT on
Dying light 2 - 27fps vs 39fps - 4080 is 44.4% faster
marvels GOTG - 53fps vs 72 fps - 4080 is 35.8% faster

Now of course, those are cherry picked to make my point, and as I said above in lighter AMD sponsored games (mostly), the difference is FAR narrower, but I'd rather hang my hat on the heavy stuff/worst case scenario's for RT than count on the average of the 4080 being only 17% faster, *if* RT matters to you (does to me).


----------



## nguyen (Dec 13, 2022)

Time is money, OP just wasted a month LOL.

Edit: W1zzard was dead right


----------



## Omga4000 (Dec 13, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> 17% isnt that massive


It's massive when we're talking about sub-30 FPS vs. above 30 FPS in many cases.




nguyen said:


> Time is money, OP just wasted a month LOL.
> 
> Edit: W1zzard was dead right


Luckily I didn't waste my time as I am missing all other parts anyway.
I'm gonna go ahead and build it soon - waiting for the Seasonic Vertex reviews


----------



## TITAN RTX 4100 (Dec 13, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Aaaaaaaand Ray-Tracing is trash.
> The 4080 is ~17% stronger for ~20% more money


The 4080 is actually 71% more money than the 3080, not 20%. $1199 vs $699 is almost double the price.


----------



## Omga4000 (Dec 13, 2022)

TITAN RTX 4100 said:


> The 4080 is actually 71% more money than the 3080, not 20%. $1199 vs $699 is almost double the price.


4080 vs. RX 7900 XTX - not compared to a 3080.


----------



## W1zzard (Dec 13, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Time is money, OP just wasted a month LOL.
> 
> Edit: W1zzard was dead right


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Dec 13, 2022)

> It's massive when we're talking about sub-30 FPS vs. above 30 FPS in many cases.


Not really.

Example meeting this formula would be 28 fps average vs 32,76 fps average. 

So latter would still include sub-30 fps dips here and there.


----------



## TITAN RTX 4100 (Dec 13, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> 4080 vs. RX 7900 XTX - not compared to a 3080.


Oh. Just like I sometimes do, I see one thing, and don't look at the rest.


----------



## Omga4000 (Dec 14, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> Not really.
> 
> Example meeting this formula would be 28 fps average vs 32,76 fps average.
> 
> So latter would still include sub-30 fps dips here and there.


Exactly. Expect dips.
Just looking at Control you can see ~35 FPS for the 7900 XTX compared to ~45 FPS for the 4080.
Assuming dips, a somewhat worse processor, slower RAM, etc.. - this will probably be a sub-30 (or near 30) FPS experience with the 7900 XTX for the average joe.
There is a much greater chance of getting a steady above 30 FPS with the RTX 4080 in this example.






TITAN RTX 4100 said:


> Oh. Just like I sometimes do, I see one thing, and don't look at the rest.


Is this my wife's account?


----------



## blued (Dec 14, 2022)

Mark my words, the 4080 will sink in price in due time. Look to 3-6 months and $799-899. Reason is Nvidia is locked into a massive pre-paid contract with TSMC which they cant back out of. They can delay it for maybe a quarter or so, but they will end up with a massive influx of inventory that will be hard to move without cutting prices significantly. Not much stock now, but it will be coming out of their ears in due time.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 14, 2022)

blued said:


> Mark my words, the 4080 will sink in price in due time. Look to 3-6 months and $799-899. Reason is Nvidia is locked into a massive pre-paid contract with TSMC which they cant back out of. They can delay it for maybe a quarter or so, but they will end up with a massive influx of inventory that will be hard to move without cutting prices significantly. Not much stock now, but it will be coming out of their ears in due time.


Possibly but the BOM price especially the cost of that monolithic die will dramatically limit how much they can drop price's, remember, Nvidia has shareholders that are hell bent on they're gross margins and they are not arsed what we the consumer think(shareholders though there's a lot of evidence Jensun doesn't give a shit too).


----------



## bug (Dec 14, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Possibly but the BOM price especially the cost of that monolithic die will dramatically limit how much they can drop price's, remember, Nvidia has shareholders that are hell bent on they're gross margins and they are not arsed what we the consumer think(shareholders though there's a lot of evidence Jensun doesn't give a shit too).


3080 is built on a 630 sq mm die, 4080 is built on a 380 sq mm one. Sure, the newer process commands a price premium, but there should be some room for lowering that price. But I wouldn't buy one if it went for $700-800, so I'm not worried either way.


----------



## Felix123BU (Dec 14, 2022)

People hate it because its a shit product for the price, a cash grab, a big big FU to all potential customers. Generally people do not like being screwed over, and when its this obvious....you get hate 
There is basically 0 reason for a 1200 price tag on such a small chip, except greed and not giving a damn about your customers.


----------



## Vayra86 (Dec 14, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Possibly but the BOM price especially the cost of that monolithic die will dramatically limit how much they can drop price's, remember, Nvidia has shareholders that are hell bent on they're gross margins and they are not arsed what we the consumer think(shareholders though there's a lot of evidence Jensun doesn't give a shit too).


Margins are all well and good, but Nvidia's dominance hangs on market share dominance, not its margins - those are a _result of dominance_. They've recently hit a new peak with 88%. If that starts falling down, you can bet shareholders get nervous too, at some threshold.

Also, we shouldn't look at the PC discrete graphics market/gaming in isolation, but also its competition from the console side. Nvidia may command the lion's share of PC gaming, but it has zero % on consoles. And the latter still defines a lot of the progress we see in gaming, even wrt VR adoption the consoles have a big voice, even though they're not leading that in any way. What was the most accessible VR headset thus far... PSVR. What's the most accessible RT content right now? That which appears on consoles people already had.

Nvidia pricing itself out of large sales numbers is a direct advantage to AMD. AMD knows this, its why they maintain price parity with Nvidia now. They're not worried. RDNA3 is proof of concept more than anything else; probably the reason the dedication to dGPU is still not quite as consistent as we'd want, going by RDNA3's launch.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Dec 14, 2022)

Felix123BU said:


> People hate it because its a shit product for the price, a cash grab, a big big FU to all potential customers. Generally people do not like being screwed over, and when its this obvious....you get hate
> There is basically 0 reason for a 1200 price tag on such a small chip, except greed and not giving a damn about your customers.


Nv is a big fu to consumers


----------



## Psychoholic (Dec 14, 2022)

I honestly dont get all the hate for the 4080, I've been loving mine.. Blows my old 3080 away while using around 130w less power.
BTW, price per frame on average is lower than the 4090, but the 4090 doesnt get all the hate.


----------



## bug (Dec 14, 2022)

Psychoholic said:


> I honestly dont get all the hate for the 4080, I've been loving mine.. Blows my old 3080 away while using around 130w less power.
> BTW, price per frame on average is lower than the 4090, but the 4090 doesnt get all the hate.


It's still a video card that's over a grand. Even if they can afford it, most people have better things to buy with that money.


----------



## nguyen (Dec 14, 2022)

bug said:


> It's still a video card that's over a grand. Even if they can afford it, most people have better things to buy with that money.



what better thing? a new Iphone?


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 14, 2022)

nguyen said:


> what better thing? a new Iphone?


A car, the deposit on a home, three whole laptops, three whole kids Christmas presents.
A month of life, not everyone has Epean money like you and that's good because your gloating would fall on deaf ears if we all had 4090s.


----------



## bug (Dec 14, 2022)

nguyen said:


> what better thing? a new Iphone?


A thousand gifts from Dollar Tree?


----------



## blued (Dec 14, 2022)

Psychoholic said:


> I honestly dont get all the hate for the 4080, I've been loving mine.. Blows my old 3080 away while using around 130w less power.
> BTW, price per frame on average is lower than the 4090, but the 4090 doesnt get all the hate.


Its a fantastic card. Just the silly price thats in question. As the saying goes, there are no bad cards, only bad prices.


----------



## Super Firm Tofu (Dec 14, 2022)

nguyen said:


> what better thing? a new Iphone?





bug said:


> A thousand gifts from Dollar Tree?



I don't know.  For someone not hung up on having a second best card (maybe even 4th by the time the 4090ti and 4080ti arrive), this makes the price of the 4080 a little silly.


----------



## Neo_Morpheus (Dec 14, 2022)

I hate not only the 4080, but nvidia in general.

Some of the reasons here:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDGPU/comments/oh7dz6


----------



## Psychoholic (Dec 14, 2022)

Super Firm Tofu said:


> I don't know.  For someone not hung up on having a second best card (maybe even 4th by the time the 4090ti and 4080ti arrive), this makes the price of the 4080 a little silly.



I guess this is why there are market segments.
That system you show for 1200 dollars would not push my monitor 3840X1600 @ 144 or 165hz in most games.. Maybe Team fortress 2 or something 

That said, choice would be nice, they should release mid-tier around the same time as top tier cards imo..  they wouldn't do that though, they want everyone buying top tier cards before the hyper wears off.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 14, 2022)

I would love a 4080. I'm just not paying the ridiculous amount of cash for it. Nvidia have moved the goalposts with respect to cost per tier and this has allowed AMD to climb higher too. The end goal is a definite division of the GPU market which, as we see in these forums, breeds resentment at best, or a sense of superiority versus inferiority at worst. 

But yeah, I'll repeat it. I like the bloody card for it's efficiency and perf. It's like, I don't know, the 3080 compared to the 2080ti. Except the 3080FE wasn't £1200.


----------



## GhostRyder (Dec 14, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Aaaaaaaand Ray-Tracing is trash.
> The 4080 is ~17% stronger for ~20% more money.
> 
> View attachment 274172
> ...


But the argument that Ray Tracing makes the RTX 4080 the better option is kind of weak.  I mean, lets be frank here, ray tracing kills performance to abysmal numbers with right now in the games that really make serious use of it  and only the 4090 able to do it reasonably well as even the 4080 struggles.  Yes theres DLSS and that makes a decent difference when combined but even with the roster of (I am going off Nvidia's website for this info) 250 games/apps that support it, the games that really take advantage suffer huge performance losses.  If thats all you want then the 4090 is going to be the option you want to go for but that costs $1600.

Too me, I am on the page that the 7900 XTX is not what I was hoping for performance wise overall (Actually more disappointed by the 7900 XT if I am being honest), but I personally think teh 7900 XTX is the better value overall at the price its at.  Does not make it a bargain and unfortunately does not make a price drop on the 4080 likely but I think its the better choice of the two at the moment.


----------



## Super Firm Tofu (Dec 14, 2022)

Psychoholic said:


> I guess this is why there are market segments.
> That system you show for 1200 dollars would not push my monitor 3840X1600 @ 144 or 165hz in most games.. Maybe Team fortress 2 or something
> 
> That said, choice would be nice, they should release mid-tier around the same time as top tier cards imo..  they wouldn't do that though, they want everyone buying top tier cards before the hyper wears off.



No arguments from me regarding market segments, but that's not what this conversation is about.  I showed the entire system at the same price as the card to show how silly $1200 for the 4080 is.  It's not even the fastest card by a sizeable margin.

It's a money grab pure and simple - it's Nvidia attempting to adjust consumer perception that the 2nd (soon to be 4th) tier will be priced at $1200 and be worth it.  Some already have accepted that. Others won't.


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 14, 2022)

Psychoholic said:


> I honestly dont get all the hate for the 4080, I've been loving mine.. Blows my old 3080 away while using around 130w less power.
> BTW, price per frame on average is lower than the 4090, but the 4090 doesnt get all the hate.


Personally, I hate the 4090 just the same.



blued said:


> Its a fantastic card. Just the silly price thats in question. As the saying goes, there are no bad cards, only bad prices.


This.


----------



## mechtech (Dec 14, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> *EDIT*:
> Since people continue commenting and sometimes recommend the same thing to me, please note the following message I had posted yesterday.
> Regardless, feel free to continue discussing this matter as you please. Turned out to be an interesting topic.
> 
> ...


if you buy me one for free I'll love it









						ASUS TUF Gaming GeForce RTX 4080 Video Card TUF-RTX4080-O16G-GAMING - Newegg.com
					

Buy ASUS TUF Gaming NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 OC Edition Video Card (PCIe 4.0, 16GB GDDR6X, HDMI 2.1, DisplayPort 1.4a, GPU Tweak) TUF-RTX4080-O16G-GAMING with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.ca
				




don't forget the 13% sales tax

k thx  

edit 7900xtx is $500 CAD cheaper.........$682 after factoring in taxes.









						XFX Gaming Radeon RX 7900 XTX Video Card RX-79XMBABF9 - Newegg.com
					

Buy XFX Gaming Radeon RX 7900 XTX 24GB GDDR6 PCI Express 4.0 x16 Video Card RX-79XMBABF9 with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.ca
				




edit 2 - i can get a 7900xtx and two 6600's for less than a 4080





						ASUS Dual Radeon RX 6600 8GB GDDR6
					

ASUS Dual Radeon RX 6600 8GB GDDR6 16 Gbps HDMI 2.1 DP1.4 DUAL-RX6600-8G




					www.canadacomputers.com
				




edit 3 - I could get a 7900xtx and a 5700x cpu and a mobo and ram for less than a 4080   maybe even a case and psu if i can find a good sale


----------



## sLowEnd (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Aaaaaaaand Ray-Tracing is trash.
> The 4080 is ~17% stronger for ~20% more money.
> 
> View attachment 274172



RTX 3090 owners in shambles. Future is here, and they ain't proofed. You heard it folks, this level of performance is considered "trash."


----------



## Omga4000 (Dec 15, 2022)

Neo_Morpheus said:


> I hate not only the 4080, but nvidia in general.
> 
> Some of the reasons here:


The business industry is ruthless.



GhostRyder said:


> RTX 4080 the better option is kind of weak


It's the better option performance wise, it's a worse option money-wise and money : performance wise.
If you absolutely need that performance boost - it is what it is. The 7900 XTX just can't handle it.



sLowEnd said:


> RTX 3090 owners in shambles. Future is here, and they ain't proofed. You heard it folks, this level of performance is considered "trash."


Well - yes. It is compared to the 4080/4090. Anywhere from 10-45% increase in RT performance is massive.
The new 7900 XTX being equal in RT performance to a 2-year old card.. Not sure how to describe it other than trash.


----------



## sLowEnd (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Well - yes. It is compared to the 4080/4090. Anywhere from 10-45% increase in RT performance is massive.
> The new 7900 XTX being equal in RT performance to a 2-year old card.. Not sure how to describe it other than trash.


I'd say it's "disappointing, relatively speaking."


----------



## eidairaman1 (Dec 15, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> A car, the deposit on a home, three whole laptops, three whole kids Christmas presents.
> A month of life, not everyone has Epean money like you and that's good because your gloating would fall on deaf ears if we all had 4090s.


Money-nonsense he has

If anything they should be 500 for top end, we can thank mining and inflation for this bs. Plus people who are suckers.


----------



## nguyen (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Well - yes. It is compared to the 4080/4090. Anywhere from 10-45% increase in RT performance is massive.
> The new 7900 XTX being equal in RT performance to a 2-year old card.. Not sure how to describe it other than trash.



7900XTX is much worse than 2 year old Ampere though, given that DLSS Performance offer much higher IQ than FSR Performance, and the only way 7900XTX and Ampere can get 60 FPS at 4K RT (in heavy RT games) is with DLSS/FSR Performance

7900XTX getting ~40FPS with FSR Balanced in Witcher 3 next-gen


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> 7900XTX is much worse than 2 year old Ampere though, given that DLSS Performance offer much higher IQ than FSR Performance, and the only way 7900XTX and Ampere can get 60 FPS at 4K RT (in heavy RT games) is with DLSS/FSR Performance


Running DLSS/FSR at Performance mode is just silly, imo.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 15, 2022)

Really for me its the price, it usually comes down to bang for the buck, no emotions, just value for money.

They simply overpriced xx80 this gen.

Maybe in 18-24 months end of gen it might be priced reasonable.


----------



## nguyen (Dec 15, 2022)

welp...some people got butthurt about other people spending good money for a piece of tech, in a tech forum   .

IMO those who got butthurt should join commodity forums where people discuss about rising prices of commodity, which is happening worldwide right now


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> welp...some people got butthurt about other people spending good money for a piece of tech, in a tech forum   .
> 
> IMO those who got butthurt should join commodity forums where people discuss about rising prices of commodity, which is happening worldwide right now


You just drive prices up


----------



## nguyen (Dec 15, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> You just drive prices up



Done it a very long time ago when I bought 7950GX2 for 650usd in 2006, but somehow we still have 150usd GPUs in 2022?
People who bought R9 295X2 for 1500usd in 2014 must be driving prices up too LOL

Vote with your wallet, then got butthurt when the majority outvoted you


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## the54thvoid (Dec 15, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> Money-nonsense he has
> 
> If anything they should be 500 for top end, we can thank mining and inflation for this bs. Plus people who are suckers.





nguyen said:


> welp...some people got butthurt about other people spending good money for a piece of tech, in a tech forum   .
> 
> IMO those who got butthurt should join commodity forums where people discuss about rising prices of commodity, which is happening worldwide right now



I'll ask nicely that people don't refer to others by way of what they choose to spend on hardware. @nguyen, your comment about people being butthurt is offensive to those (like me) who simply choose not to spend what Nvidia is asking us to spend. I'm not butthurt - like most who reject the pricing. I wouldn't spend $/£1100+ on an XTX either.


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> welp...some people got butthurt about other people spending good money for a piece of tech, in a tech forum   .
> 
> IMO those who got butthurt should join commodity forums where people discuss about rising prices of commodity, which is happening worldwide right now


Being butthurt and being sick of listening to people bragging about how much money they have for things most of us don't even need or want are two entirely different things, trust me.

Just like being able to fork up the cash for the top tier and knowing what's actually worth buying for your needs are entirely different things as well.


----------



## nguyen (Dec 15, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Being butthurt and being sick of listening to people bragging about how much money they have for things most of us don't even need or want are two entirely different things, trust me.
> 
> Just like being able to fork up the cash for the top tier and knowing what's actually worth buying for your needs are entirely different things as well.



Well if you can't tell by now, you are being ignored for being a massive hypocrite.
The hypocrisy here is that you also wasted lots of money on frivolous hardwares, yet you claim the moral high ground against people who waste more money than you  .
Who need a 7700X and 6750XT for 1080p 60FPS gaming? beside you I think there are barely a handful of people in the world who need nor want those for 1080p 60FPS gaming, my nephew is happy with r5 3600+gtx1060.



the54thvoid said:


> I'll ask nicely that people don't refer to others by way of what they choose to spend on hardware. @nguyen, your comment about people being butthurt is offensive to those (like me) who simply choose not to spend what Nvidia is asking us to spend. I'm not butthurt - like most who reject the pricing. I wouldn't spend $/£1100+ on an XTX either.



Let say there are people who can comfortably afford 1200usd GPU (but not the scalped 4090 at 2000usd+), what choices do we have at this price range? it just leaves 3090Ti, 7900XT, 7900XTX and 4080. Depending on user preferences (playing new games @ 4K + RT), 4080 does make some sense.

There are definitely costlier GPU in history, but some AMD fans here really like to stand on moral high ground, especially when AMD is losing LOL, where were the outcry when r9 295X2 cost 1500usd?


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## Omga4000 (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> what choices do we have at this price range?


Definitely not the 4090.
Last stock of ANY 4090 card at MSRP is 5 days+ ago across the US - what a joke.
(Micro Center / local dealers not included)


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well if you can't tell by now, you are being ignored for being a massive hypocrite.
> The hypocrisy here is that you also wasted lots of money on frivolous hardwares, yet you claim the moral high ground against people who waste more money than you  .
> Who need a 7700X and 6750XT for 1080p 60FPS gaming? beside you I think there are barely a handful of people in the world who need nor want those for 1080p 60FPS gaming, my nephew is happy with r5 3600+gtx1060.


You're the one claiming the moral high ground, not me.
Do I buy more hardware than I need? Yes. Is my main PC overpowered for what I want from it? I guess you could say that. Do I brag about it and openly look down on anyone who can't afford what I have, or suggest anyone to do what I do? Never ever. Yet you claim that not buying a 4090 is purely a money issue. This is where you're going wrong. My computers are only for my own enjoyment, and not for bragging rights on an online forum. If your 4090 makes you happy, that's good. Just don't pretend that it's a good value, and anyone not buying one is just poor, because that isn't only false, but plain offensive towards a whole community.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Dec 15, 2022)

Psychoholic said:


> I've been loving mine.. Blows my old 3080 away while using around 130w less power.



Told ya you've got a nice card. Now that the XTX has shown it's not that impressive, it's making a hard choice between the two with me leaning more towards the 4080.

Hoping there will be price cuts soon : )

Enjoy your card!


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well if you can't tell by now, you are being ignored for being a massive hypocrite.
> The hypocrisy here is that you also wasted lots of money on frivolous hardwares, yet you claim the moral high ground against people who waste more money than you  .
> Who need a 7700X and 6750XT for 1080p 60FPS gaming? beside you I think there are barely a handful of people in the world who need nor want those for 1080p 60FPS gaming, my nephew is happy with r5 3600+gtx1060.
> 
> ...


Your terminology is a bit wrong, I doubt anyone thinks you wasted money.
As for others not being WILLING to pay as much, that's life, we all didn't buy porches or Ferrari either.
But if most saw a Ferrari owner trolling a Volkswagen owner as you are/do then those people start to think your a tw@t, it's that simple.

I don't Hate the card, I don't hate you purchasing the dearer version, I don't mind your enjoyment of the card.

But I don't like being trolled so on that front, expect some bite back.

And whataboutism is the shittest version of retort but what about them, I and most arguing against the price of the 4080, yes the 4080, the actual point of this thread not your 4090 didn't buy the f£#@£££ 295X2, did they.
And that argument is retarded for that reason.


----------



## mb194dc (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Definitely not the 4090.
> Last stock of ANY 4090 card at MSRP is 5 days+ ago across the US - what a joke.
> (Micro Center / local dealers not included)
> 
> View attachment 274528



Surprising, 4090 is widely available in the UK and pretty much always has been from what I've seen. Scan and OCUK have them from £1750 ish including UK 20% VAT.


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## pzqking (Dec 15, 2022)

1.Compared with 7900xt and 7900xtx,buying a 4080 seems not a good idea.Only if you are an AI trainer or some hardware decoded software user.Or you are willing for a highly raytracing performance,but 7000 radeons seems not so bad.When it comes to basical entertainment like me,a CNC fan,it seems completely useless.
2.4080 was started with 2 editions,using a same codename,which easily taken advantages by those flauds.
3.the lower edition of 4080 was canceled,which dealt a lot damage to AIBS.

What's more,even under a situation right now,players still seems unlikely to get a 4080 by its original price.


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## BetrayerX (Dec 15, 2022)

Ridiculously overpriced, Nvidia thinks it's the new Apple where they can charge anything they like, and the "cool boys" pay for them because "I can pay it". It's annoying that the consumers are allowing this, but hell, we live in an age where any stupid phone game has $99.00 pay to win buys and they are doing fine....


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well if you can't tell by now, you are being ignored for being a massive hypocrite.
> The hypocrisy here is that you also wasted lots of money on frivolous hardwares, yet you claim the moral high ground against people who waste more money than you  .
> Who need a 7700X and 6750XT for 1080p 60FPS gaming? beside you I think there are barely a handful of people in the world who need nor want those for 1080p 60FPS gaming, my nephew is happy with r5 3600+gtx1060.
> 
> ...


I own a Nvidia gpu and havent used amd discrete for a long time, nothing to do with brand loyalty, not sure why this is bothering you,


----------



## nguyen (Dec 15, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> I own a Nvidia gpu and havent used amd discrete for a long time, nothing to do with brand loyalty, not sure why this is bothering you,



Everyone has their own circumstances and perspective, but apparently some people here think there is only one way to spend "precious" money, everyone else is wrong  .


----------



## GhostRyder (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> It's the better option performance wise, it's a worse option money-wise and money : performance wise.
> If you absolutely need that performance boost - it is what it is. The 7900 XTX just can't handle it.


Its only better performance wise if your concern is Ray Tracing is what I am saying.  Overall on average the RX 7900 XTX is slightly faster depending on resolution and cheaper except when Ray Tracing is tested (And even then it at least seems to match the 3090 ti from last round in ray tracing performance).

Not to mention the aftermarket variants of the RX 7900 XTX seem to show great performance improvements with overclocking compared to the RTX 4080.  Which adds another layer of value depending on the user if they want to push it (Or buy the high end ones already pre-overclocked). 

At the end I am not gonna defend AMD and say the RX 7900 XTX is the most amazing card ever, truth be told its a let down compared to the 6900XT and 6950XT from last round.  But I will say its still the better option compared to the RTX 4080 unless your only concern is Ray Tracing max performance which it beats the 7900 XTX by somewhere around 15% overall.


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## chrcoluk (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Everyone has their own circumstances and perspective, but apparently some people here think there is only one way to spend "precious" money, everyone else is wrong  .
> View attachment 274582


I havent seen that been said, just personal perspectives been given.  But you did go in a bit heavy with your comment so some comeback was expected.  I couldnt care less if you buy a 4080.


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## ThrashZone (Dec 15, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> I havent seen that been said, just personal perspectives been given.  But you did go in a bit heavy with your comment so some comeback was expected.  I couldnt care less if you buy a 4080.


Hi,
I'd add buying an even more expensive asus 4090 tuf.


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## ShiBDiB (Dec 15, 2022)

blued said:


> Mark my words, the 4080 will sink in price in due time. Look to 3-6 months and $799-899. Reason is Nvidia is locked into a massive pre-paid contract with TSMC which they cant back out of. They can delay it for maybe a quarter or so, but they will end up with a massive influx of inventory that will be hard to move without cutting prices significantly. Not much stock now, but it will be coming out of their ears in due time.



Older tech will sink in price as it becomes older and stock increases... Shocking claim...


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## Omga4000 (Dec 15, 2022)

mb194dc said:


> Surprising, 4090 is widely available in the UK and pretty much always has been from what I've seen. Scan and OCUK have them from £1750 ish including UK 20% VAT.


Is that the MSRP?
Because that's dang expensive.. These are the scalped prices here in the US.


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## Neo_Morpheus (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> The business industry is ruthless.


Indeed but some companies are way worse than others and me personally speak with my money, which is also attached to my moral compass and that compass seems to match whatever went thru the likes of Apple, Sony, MS (to a point), EVGA, Linus Torvalds and others about what they think about Nvidia.

And quoting Linus Torvalds:


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## mb194dc (Dec 15, 2022)

Omga4000 said:


> Is that the MSRP?
> Because that's dang expensive.. These are the scalped prices here in the US.



Yes it's expensive, price of the PNY card is meant to be $1600 + Tax I think, so the price is about £150 over what it "should" cost.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 15, 2022)

GhostRyder said:


> But the argument that Ray Tracing makes the RTX 4080 the better option is kind of weak.  I mean, lets be frank here, ray tracing kills performance to abysmal numbers with right now in the games that really make serious use of it  and only the 4090 able to do it reasonably well as even the 4080 struggles.  Yes theres DLSS and that makes a decent difference when combined but even with the roster of (I am going off Nvidia's website for this info) 250 games/apps that support it, the games that really take advantage suffer huge performance losses.  If thats all you want then the 4090 is going to be the option you want to go for but that costs $1600.
> 
> Too me, I am on the page that the 7900 XTX is not what I was hoping for performance wise overall (Actually more disappointed by the 7900 XT if I am being honest), but I personally think teh 7900 XTX is the better value overall at the price its at.  Does not make it a bargain and unfortunately does not make a price drop on the 4080 likely but I think its the better choice of the two at the moment.


Absolutely. Well said.



nguyen said:


> Well if you can't tell by now, you are being ignored for being a massive hypocrite.
> The hypocrisy here is that you also wasted lots of money on frivolous hardwares, yet you claim the moral high ground against people who waste more money than you  .
> Who need a 7700X and 6750XT for 1080p 60FPS gaming? beside you I think there are barely a handful of people in the world who need nor want those for 1080p 60FPS gaming, my nephew is happy with r5 3600+gtx1060.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I can't disagree with you here, as much as I can in other occasions 

It kind of aligns with what I keep saying about video cards in general. They're luxury goods. I totally get people want to blow a lot of money on that as a hobby. I guess I'm mostly just staggered at how far people are willing to go for a bit of performance or a feature. And at the same time, I feel the urge to upgrade too  But... the 'you're getting ripped off' -feeling is still stronger in the current offerings, tbh.


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## AusWolf (Dec 15, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Everyone has their own circumstances and perspective, but apparently some people here think there is only one way to spend "precious" money, everyone else is wrong  .
> View attachment 274582


I guess you didn't get the message.

There's nothing wrong with the way you spend your money. Heck, buy a million USD limited edition Ferrari and be happy with it, all the power to you, really. Just don't rub it into Camry owners' faces that you're so much better than them because you throw money away on luxury items. Your attitude offends people, not your spending habits.

In short: buy what you want, just don't be a d*ck.


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## wolf (Dec 16, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Everyone has their own circumstances and perspective, but apparently some people here think there is only one way to spend "precious" money, everyone else is wrong .


It being denied but I've definitely felt that sentiment on these forums.

As for the 4080 now, this is a worrying generation, 4090 running away at the top end unchallenged, nothing disruptive enough happening in the $900-1200 range to have either camp alter prices.. worrying for people who don't want to spend crazy money. Nvidia have struck gold with Ada+TSMC in terms of clocks and efficiency, so I think as we go down lower in the stack and even laptop parts, Nvidia will run away with it again imo.

Keen to see the 7900 series after some driver bugs get ironed out and perhaps some games where perf is essentially broken need to be fixed. I think they may have actually gotten bigger gen on gen RT gains this cycle too.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Dec 16, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well if you can't tell by now, you are being ignored for being a massive hypocrite.
> The hypocrisy here is that you also wasted lots of money on frivolous hardwares, yet you claim the moral high ground against people who waste more money than you  .
> Who need a 7700X and 6750XT for 1080p 60FPS gaming? beside you I think there are barely a handful of people in the world who need nor want those for 1080p 60FPS gaming, my nephew is happy with r5 3600+gtx1060.
> 
> ...


I could spend the money I have on 4 7900XTXs right now with a ThreadRipper Pro and motherboard for it but I don't because I have a life to take care of, also I refuse to spend money over 500 on a Top GPU just for it to be replaced in 2-5 years (I build for longevity).It's the same BS when people buy flagship phones and replace them every 2 years. I have a $216 Motorolla phone that has the features I want and need that a $1200 Samsung phone has but that company's $200+ line doesn't have the features mine has.

Point is I am Frugal with my expenditure.

I'm focused on my 2007 Chevrolet Silverado with 293 CID refreshing the interior and fixing the nose, then increase its duty capability (a 1 Ton duty, Half Ton Truck-wreckerfy it) Why? It's a need and a want.



AusWolf said:


> I guess you didn't get the message.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with the way you spend your money. Heck, buy a million USD limited edition Ferrari and be happy with it, all the power to you, really. Just don't rub it into Camry owners' faces that you're so much better than them because you throw money away on luxury items. Your attitude offends people, not your spending habits.
> 
> In short: buy what you want, just don't be a d*ck.


I'll write it, don't be a dick.


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 16, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> I could spend the money I have on 4 7900XTXs right now with a ThreadRipper Pro and motherboard for it but I don't because I have a life to take care of, also I refuse to spend money over 500 on a Top GPU just for it to be replaced in 2-5 years (I build for longevity).It's the same BS when people buy flagship phones and replace them every 2 years. I have a $216 Motorolla phone that has the features I want and need that a $1200 Samsung phone has but that company's $200+ line doesn't have the features mine has.


Like I tend to say to people: "My £180 Samsung can run Messenger and WhatsApp just as fast as your £1,200 one." 



eidairaman1 said:


> I'll write it, don't be a dick.


I wasn't sure if I was going to cross some forum policy or not, but thanks.


----------



## nguyen (Dec 16, 2022)

wolf said:


> It being denied but I've definitely felt that sentiment on these forums.
> 
> As for the 4080 now, this is a worrying generation, 4090 running away at the top end unchallenged, nothing disruptive enough happening in the $900-1200 range to have either camp alter prices.. worrying for people who don't want to spend crazy money. Nvidia have struck gold with Ada+TSMC in terms of clocks and efficiency, so I think as we go down lower in the stack and even laptop parts, Nvidia will run away with it again imo.
> 
> Keen to see the 7900 series after some driver bugs get ironed out and perhaps some games where perf is essentially broken need to be fixed. I think they may have actually gotten bigger gen on gen RT gains this cycle too.



Hehe, too many people thinking they are better for being frugal on the internet, it get to me sometimes   .

What is scary is that Nvidia knew exactly where AMD top chip will end up at, what happened with 3080 10GB wasn't a fluke, Nvidia knew they had to use a 102 die to compete with AMD. Now Nvidia knew they only need AD103 chip to compete with AMD top dog.

It's pretty much over for this gen when AMD can't even compete on rasterization, which is the only thing AMD is good at. Perhaps AMD will be competitive next gen that will force Nvidia to use 102 die to compete at <1000usd price range.



eidairaman1 said:


> I could spend the money I have on 4 7900XTXs right now with a ThreadRipper Pro and motherboard for it but I don't because I have a life to take care of, also I refuse to spend money over 500 on a Top GPU just for it to be replaced in 2-5 years (I build for longevity).It's the same BS when people buy flagship phones and replace them every 2 years. I have a $216 Motorolla phone that has the features I want and need that a $1200 Samsung phone has but that company's $200+ line doesn't have the features mine has.
> 
> Point is I am Frugal with my expenditure.
> 
> ...



I'll write it, don't be a dick and expect others to be nice.

I will be frank with you, people can buy things they can't afford, your situation mean you can't afford them. I can safely say that I can afford buying new PC every 2 years or less. I still have 2 PCs with custom watercooled 2080Ti and 3090 that I don't know what to do with them.


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## AusWolf (Dec 16, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Hehe, too many people thinking they are better for being frugal on the internet, it get to me sometimes   .


One more time: nobody has an issue with your spending habits. Your attitude is the problem. Read comments before you reply next time.



nguyen said:


> What is scary is that Nvidia knew exactly where AMD top chip will end up at, what happened with 3080 10GB wasn't a fluke, Nvidia knew they had to use a 102 die to compete with AMD. Now Nvidia knew they only need AD103 chip to compete with AMD top dog.
> 
> It's pretty much over for this gen when AMD can't even compete on rasterization, which is the only thing AMD is good at. Perhaps AMD will be competitive next gen that will force Nvidia to use 102 die to compete at <1000usd price range.


I'd rephrase that.














nguyen said:


> I'll write it, don't be a dick and expect others to be nice.
> 
> I will be frank with you, people can buy things they can't afford, *your situation mean you can't afford them*. I can safely say that I can afford buying new PC every 2 years or less. I still have 2 PCs with custom watercooled 2080Ti and 3090 that I don't know what to do with them.


There you go, being a dick again. Not everything in life is about money, spending and luxury, you know. Not buying something does not mean that one can't afford it.

Edit: Making assumptions about people's (financial) situation purely based on them not owning something that you do isn't only wrong, but also rude as f**k. You have no right to make those assumptions.

Let's turn this around. _Do you own a sports car? Well, I do, so if you don't, I guess you're just poor._ See what I mean?


----------



## nguyen (Dec 16, 2022)

people have voted with their wallet, 4080 is the best selling GPU at Newegg


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 16, 2022)

nguyen said:


> people have voted with their wallet, 4080 is the best selling GPU at Newegg
> View attachment 274662


That's before or after they announced "no returns" policy?


----------



## wolf (Dec 16, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Hehe, too many people thinking they are better for being frugal on the internet, it get to me sometimes  .


I really feel this because I've been a GPU addict for a good 2 decades or more. many a time I marched into a store day 1 and forked over big coin for the best GPU on offer. Times have changed with online buying but people haven't.

Yeah this hobby isn't exactly cheap, but honestly its _relatively _cheap.  I marched into a retailer and bough a 6800 Ultra day 1 (a time honored tradition for me), that was 499 USD in 2004! which was if memory serves $899 AUD, a hell of a lot of money for 17 year old me. But it was just one paycheck at the time. Todays equivalent would be 2-3 paychecks, but arguably you get a LOT more for the money.

I don't want to begrudge budget gamers budget GFX cards, and tbh that market has been pretty shit for a good 4-5 years now, but high end buying isn't exactly for the rich only when gaming is your #1 hobby. Try owning a project car...or a home that needs repairs... I am prepared to be heavily flamed for this opinion.


nguyen said:


> What is scary is that Nvidia knew exactly where AMD top chip will end up at, what happened with 3080 10GB wasn't a fluke, Nvidia knew they had to use a 102 die to compete with AMD. Now Nvidia knew they only need AD103 chip to compete with AMD top dog.
> It's pretty much over for this gen when AMD can't even compete on rasterization, which is the only thing AMD is good at. Perhaps AMD will be competitive next gen that will force Nvidia to use 102 die to compete at <1000usd price range.


Its a cool and scary thought at the same time, I feel like Ada on "N4" for Nvidia is a crazy combo and they have so much efficiency/clockspeed/top tier silicon up their sleeve, within reason it doesn't matter what AMD do, they have an answer, which is awesome and cooked and the same time lol.


----------



## Bomby569 (Dec 16, 2022)

nguyen said:


> people have voted with their wallet, 4080 is the best selling GPU at Newegg
> View attachment 274662



holly shit those prices, from 4080/4090 to that 3060. The world is full of idiots ready to be parted with their money, no wonder companies do this, i'm sorry it's the truth


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 16, 2022)

wolf said:


> I really feel this because I've been a GPU addict for a good 2 decades or more. many a time I marched into a store day 1 and forked over big coin for the best GPU on offer. Times have changed with online buying but people haven't.
> 
> Yeah this hobby isn't exactly cheap, but honestly its _relatively _cheap.  I marched into a retailer and bough a 6800 Ultra day 1 (a time honored tradition for me), that was 499 USD in 2004! which was if memory serves $899 AUD, a hell of a lot of money for 17 year old me. But it was just one paycheck at the time. Todays equivalent would be 2-3 paychecks, but arguably you get a LOT more for the money.
> 
> ...


First you do you but be real your still just getting one GPU you then realistically have to put in a similarly priced pc to play games, at a higher fidelity and FPS.

So quit making it sound like your card makes brews n shit, it's just a GPU.

Second your type is the reason the budget market is still shit, if people keep paying they'll keep making.


Third people like you and the main troll on this thread who hasn't even got a 4080 are lining the market up to be just how Huang wants it, then you'll pay, with one GPU maker your going to need some overtime.


As for where this ends, without new blood, without budget gamers the phone market, consoles and cloud will eventually rid you of your toy's and we're talking about possibly within 10 years IMHO.

So Lapp it up ladies, Epean away, your time is numbered( not a threat per say I mean as an Epean gamer), go you.


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## Tatty_One (Dec 16, 2022)

I think at this point after 15 pages that the dead horse has been flogged to death several times and therefore I am going to close it down and in doing so thank everyone for their contributions.


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