# HD DVD Believes Format War is Far From Over



## JacKz5o (Jan 27, 2008)

Even with the tide apparently shifting in Blu-ray Disc's favor, the HD DVD camp isn't about to relent in the on-going high-definition format war. HD DVD still commands a significant portion of exclusive content and the most affordable hardware, giving the format a fighting chance. One part of HD DVD's new strategy is on lower prices and selling the hardware's ability to upscale regular DVD movies.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Ravenas (Jan 27, 2008)

Or lower the price of their players just so they can make back 50% of the production cost. Blu ray owns 83% of the market right now, and that was found while no rebates were going and no 2 for 1.

Toshiba is making it far from over because they don't want to loose a ton of money. It's just hurting the market. I hate to the reaction from people once this war is over.


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## Dr. Spankenstein (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm looking forward to HD-DVD opening up the niche market for HD audio. Afew have alread been released but Feb. is supposed to have a bunch comming with DTS-Master Audio.


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## PrudentPrincess (Jan 27, 2008)

Why can't these big wigs play nice and make a universal format?


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## Water Drop (Jan 27, 2008)

I am a big fan of HD-DVD and I will never buy Blu-Ray, because I feel that Sony is the most evil company on the face of the planet.  But yeah, Blu-Ray won, the war is over, and the consumers are screwed.  

Pioneer 1080p upscaling DVD player


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## PrudentPrincess (Jan 27, 2008)

Haha after posting that I found an old laser disk in my desk drawer.


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## spacejunky (Jan 27, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> Or lower the price of their players just so they can make back 50% of the production cost. Blu ray owns 83% of the market right now, and that was found while no rebates were going and no 2 for 1.
> 
> Toshiba is making it far from over because they don't want to loose a ton of money. It's just hurting the market. I hate to the reaction from people once this war is over.



You make it sound like the consumer actually chose BR over HD-DVD.  Have you not been paying attention or are you just trying to make yourself feel better about your $500 BR player that can also play crappy games?  If you had been paying attention, you would know that the consumer is not the reason BR has 83% production but rather because Sony is paying off the Movie Producers to go exclusive BR.

yeah that is great for consumers because if and when the war ever ends, Sony wouldn't be interested in recouping the 1 Billion or so they have paid to the producers by jacking the prices on players and licensing fees would they?


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## Dr. Spankenstein (Jan 27, 2008)

Half of that billion went to Warner alone!!!!


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## mrw1986 (Jan 27, 2008)

Blu-ray won, thats all that matters. I own both players and I believe blu-ray to be superior. I'm upset I bought a dead technology (hd-dvd)


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## 0elemental0 (Jan 27, 2008)

mrw1986 said:


> Blu-ray won, thats all that matters. I own both players and I believe blu-ray to be superior. I'm upset I bought a dead technology (hd-dvd)



i have hddvd and the planet earth set..that alone was worth the 150 total cost (hda2 at devil mart for 99)...i have yet to send in for my freebies..i probably should so i can catalog another dead tech ive bought ..like my beta vcr.  im not a bluray fan....and ps3 can suck an egg.. but if push comes to shove...i will buy the old 60 gig ps3 for its emotion engine and blu ray...bleck


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## Rob! (Jan 27, 2008)

I bought neither.  But granted I haven't bought any of this HD stuff because I never watch tv and rarely watch movies.  

However when I get an apartment after I graduate I plan on getting a modest tv and a DVD upscaler, as that is the best deal for me for how I use it.

Not counting PS3s, I only know one person who's bought into the hi-def dvd stuff.


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## imperialreign (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm waiting on the final fall-out before I purchase any hardware for my rig.

TBH, though, I'm still routing for HD.  I can't stand Sony, nor their vast market - I perosnlally think they have themselves involved in more market than they really need to be.  Sony hardware (for anything, whether computer, car audio, home audio, etc) is waaayyy over priced when there is always something of the same value, built better, and costs less on the market.

BR FTL!!


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## Ravenas (Jan 27, 2008)

spacejunky said:


> You make it sound like the consumer actually chose BR over HD-DVD.  Have you not been paying attention or are you just trying to make yourself feel better about your $500 BR player that can also play crappy games?  If you had been paying attention, you would know that the consumer is not the reason BR has 83% production but rather because Sony is paying off the Movie Producers to go exclusive BR.
> 
> yeah that is great for consumers because if and when the war ever ends, Sony wouldn't be interested in recouping the 1 Billion or so they have paid to the producers by jacking the prices on players and licensing fees would they?



So much false information here I can't even begin to answer.


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## flashstar (Jan 27, 2008)

Remember folks, Sony has never won a format war.

Remember Betamax, minidiscs, UMD's, memory sticks, etc. Really, sony has only been successful at formats that are integral parts of their hardware. Memory sticks would be close to dead if it weren't for the psp. While UMD's are required to play psp games, UMD movies are very rare. 

According to economics, HD-DVD should win because it is offering similar performance for around half the price of Blu-Ray. The one thing that's hurting HD-DVD though is that the Xbox 360 doesn't use a HD-DVD drive... 

If it had, the war would be over already.


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## candle_86 (Jan 27, 2008)

just because it won the war doesnt mean we have to pay the price. Look how long it took for DVD to replace VCR.


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2008)

as much as i think the wars almsot over, i prefer HD-DVD.

the DVD upscaling is a great feature, and bluray costs too much. Not because of the tech, because of all the licensing crap that gets paid to sony.

Sony do not care about the end user, they care about sucking other big names into supporting their product, so that sony make money in the long run. I just dont feel proprietary tech is the way to go for this - no one compay owned/pushed everyone into DVD.


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## Wile E (Jan 27, 2008)

Mussels said:


> as much as i think the wars almsot over, i prefer HD-DVD.
> 
> the DVD upscaling is a great feature, and bluray costs too much. Not because of the tech, because of all the licensing crap that gets paid to sony.
> 
> Sony do not care about the end user, they care about sucking other big names into supporting their product, so that sony make money in the long run. I just dont feel proprietary tech is the way to go for this - no one compay owned/pushed everyone into DVD.



BluRay players upscale DVDs as well.


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2008)

Wile E said:


> BluRay players upscale DVDs as well.



shh i'm telling myself blu ray sucks because sony is evil.


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## Edito (Jan 27, 2008)

Blu-Ray all the way... and about the price its a metter of time till the price drop... Blu-Ray and PS3 all the way, i prefere sony because they bring something new they bring inovation...

im not a HD-DVD hater i just prefer Blu-ray...


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2008)

Edito said:


> Blu-Ray all the way... and about the price its a metter of time till the price drop... Blu-Ray and PS3 all the way, i prefere sony because they bring something new they bring inovation...
> 
> im not a HD-DVD hater i just prefer Blu-ray...



innovation such as rootkit viruses on music CD's, mmm yes.


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## Edito (Jan 27, 2008)

Mussels said:


> innovation such as rootkit viruses on music CD's, mmm yes.



Its a issue i can accept but we must accept SONY bring good inovations, in tvs, consoles etc... if u can't accept that ill assume that ur a SONY HATER or blu-ray HATER...


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## Triprift (Jan 27, 2008)

Definitly i love all there consoles and always had a walkman growing up and my 60 stacker cd player all brilliant.


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## moto666 (Jan 27, 2008)

I wait till One is dead!
Then I purchase the surviver!
In the mean time I watch DVD and DivX!
The world is unfair and hard!
Cant change it! So what...!


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2008)

Edito said:


> Its a issue i can accept but we must accept SONY bring good inovations, in tvs, consoles etc... if u can't accept that ill assume that ur a SONY HATER or blu-ray HATER...



no need to assume, i'm a sony hater. Not so much in that i needlessly bash their products, just that i will never buy anything sony.

in addition to what moto said.

In the meantime i watch DVD, .avi, and H264 MKV files. format free high definition is WINNAR.


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## R3ign (Jan 27, 2008)

Can they just please settle this ? because i'm still not sure what to buy ether Blue-Ray or HD because one is going to loose this war, and knowing my luck it will be the one that i buy.


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## Triprift (Jan 27, 2008)

Just go with Blue ray quarenteed theyll win this war.


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2008)

i just want whichever one wins to drop in price.

Seriously, both are expensive in aus - and even at kmart i have never seen a HD-DVD movie, only bluray. All the local electrical stores (retravision, harvey norman) have a 'cheap' blu ray player - at only $700.


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## Triprift (Jan 27, 2008)

yeah i must admit until recently id never even seen a hd dvd yet had seen blueray everywhere.


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## Mussels (Jan 27, 2008)

i have a 720p TV, a '1050p' monitor (lol) and just want to watch things that arent downloaded in HD. sigh.


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## Triprift (Jan 27, 2008)

As soon as me 68cm telli dies ill get a truehd plasma get my sises bf who werks for lg to get me a good deal and get me hd topbox while im at it.


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## Zubasa (Jan 27, 2008)

Edito said:


> Its a issue i can accept but we must accept SONY bring good inovations, in tvs, consoles etc... if u can't accept that ill assume that ur a SONY HATER or blu-ray HATER...


I don't see much innovations at all in the PS3
It is mostly a beefed up PS2 If you ask me.
I rather go for the damn Wii for innovations


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## imperialreign (Jan 27, 2008)

Triprift said:


> yeah i must admit until recently id never even seen a hd dvd yet had seen blueray everywhere.



sama here - ayn store you'd go into is breaming with BR titles.  Although, considering how Sony is trying to extort the market, it wouldn't surprise me if they have had something to do with cornering the stores, too.

Personally, I can't stand Sony products - innovative . . . no.  Worth their price . . . no.  In every market that they produce some kind of product for, there is something else already there that offers better quality at a cheaper price.

Plus, I'm tired of hearing that the original PS was innovative - maybe in it's marketing, but it offered nothing that SEGA hadn't already done with the ill-fated and poorly-timed Saturn.

Car audio.  Sure the Xplosion line might sound great, but from experience, it will only sound great when partnered with Sony equipment.  Pioneer, though, builds their equipment better, offers better quality, and is priced cheaper than Sony's equipment.

Computers - the VAIO might look like a great deal on the shelf, but there's nothing fancy behind it except for the extra $100 SONY logo and gimmicky marketing.

Home entertainment - shelf stereos, there are so many companies that offer better quality than SONY in this market it isn't even funny.  Same goes with Plasmas, flat screens and standard TVs.

Sony, my personal message for you:


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## Hitsugaya_Toushirou (Jan 27, 2008)

Well, i'm a neutral for this but the blu-ray discs have a larger capacity of 25GB, which would be useful for longer movies i guess since HD video is rather large about 8.3GiB per hour, which means only about 110min for single layer HD-DVD discs while you could have about 180min for single layer Blu-ray. If you consider this it means HD-DVD will need to use dual layer for their movies, which probably cost more to manufacture since it'll require more material and precision. (Like DVDs: single layer would cost about 50c a disc, while dual layer DVD cost like $5)

Another reason, which could be pushing the companies to use Blu-ray is the Region Protection thing like with DVDs while HD-DVD doesn't support Region Protection so it means copyright can't be enforced well with these discs.

Anyway, as Mussels mentioned (on page 1) there isn't much need of these discs since you can just watch videos on your computer. HD Videos uses the H.264 video compression so you can just watch HD videos in MKV container. Most videos are usually released on the internet in the form of avi, which uses Xvid or DivX video, or mkv, which uses the same codec as HD video; H.264. Current DVD players can play DivX and Xvid videos so if you wanted you can watch these on your tv or if you prefer higher quality at a smaller filesize but don't mind watching it on your computer then get h.264 video in mkv container.


Edit: Also Blu-ray drives for the computer are reasonably cheap... only like $200 AUD, which would probably be less in USD. Also if you must watch your HD Videos on your TV you could just use the TV-out on your graphics card.


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## Hitsugaya_Toushirou (Jan 27, 2008)

Mussels said:


> i just want whichever one wins to drop in price.
> 
> Seriously, both are expensive in aus - and even at kmart i have never seen a HD-DVD movie, only bluray. All the local electrical stores (retravision, harvey norman) have a 'cheap' blu ray player - at only $700.



I'm not sure where in Australia your in but i'm in AU as well and $700.00 appears to be quite expensive. Anyway, as i mentioned in my previous post, just get a blu-ray drive for your computer for $200 AUD.


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## WarEagleAU (Jan 27, 2008)

so that 68CM tube is a 27" TV?


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## PrudentPrincess (Jan 27, 2008)

Hitsugaya_Toushirou said:


> I'm not sure where in Australia your in but i'm in AU as well and $700.00 appears to be quite expensive. Anyway, as i mentioned in my previous post, just get a blu-ray drive for your computer for $200 AUD.



Or get a PS3.


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## imperialreign (Jan 27, 2008)

Hitsugaya_Toushirou said:


> Edit: Also Blu-ray drives for the computer are reasonably cheap... only like $200 AUD, which would probably be less in USD. Also if you must watch your HD Videos on your TV you could just use the TV-out on your graphics card.



they're about $200 USD online here, too - on average - which means that they're actually a bit cheaper than $200 AUD (based on current conversion rates).

But, if you go to buy one in store, though, they're priced higher (based on our regional prices): BestBuy $299; Circuit City $550+ (burner capable)


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## mrw1986 (Jan 27, 2008)

85% of the people in this discussion are all fanboys against sony. Its quite hilarious.


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## JacKz5o (Jan 27, 2008)

spacejunky said:


> You make it sound like the consumer actually chose BR over HD-DVD.  Have you not been paying attention or are you just trying to make yourself feel better about your $500 BR player that can also play crappy games?  If you had been paying attention, you would know that the consumer is not the reason BR has 83% production but rather because Sony is paying off the Movie Producers to go exclusive BR.
> 
> yeah that is great for consumers because if and when the war ever ends, Sony wouldn't be interested in recouping the 1 Billion or so they have paid to the producers by jacking the prices on players and licensing fees would they?



Yes, while Sony did pay Fox to stay Blu-ray and Warner to become Blu-ray exclusive, Toshiba did the same thing with Universal and other studios as well.


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## Snipe343 (Jan 27, 2008)

Water Drop said:


> I will never buy Blu-Ray, because I feel that Sony is the most evil company on the face of the planet.
> Pioneer 1080p upscaling DVD player



and microsoft is not?, and blue-ray disk is also the winner, just because it is the better format


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## Ravenas (Jan 27, 2008)

The title of this thread should be:

"HD-DVD is prolonging the format war so they don't lose insane amounts of money!"

Cheers to anyone who buys a HD-DVD player now, it's going to be quite useless in a not so far away time.


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 27, 2008)

hd-dvds will be around for awhile and will find their own niche in the tech world. however, for movies blu-ray will be the format of choice for movie studios based on how well sony was able to push the ps3 and how well sony was able to wheel and deal with movie studio executives. it is called business. dont hate sony because they are better business people than toshiba. and the consumer is not screwed.  you young guys crack me up. i remember when buying a vhs cost a lot of money. dvds were the same way. the price will drop.


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## PrudentPrincess (Jan 27, 2008)

Easy Rhino said:


> hd-dvds will be around for awhile and will find their own niche in the tech world. however, for movies blu-ray will be the format of choice for movie studios based on how well sony was able to push the ps3 and how well sony was able to wheel and deal with movie studio executives. it is called business. dont hate sony because they are better business people than toshiba. and the consumer is not screwed.  you young guys crack me up. i remember when buying a vhs cost a lot of money. dvds were the same way. the price will drop.



Yeah I remember throwing out all my 8-tracks and laser disks too. F****


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## Dangle (Jan 27, 2008)

HD DVD FTW!!!! They need to drastically reduce the prices - for everyone.  If the format becomes a standard, they will make up all of their money over time.  We need 50-100 dollar players, and $15 discs.  Anyway, optical discs are lame technology.  This is 2008 for crying out loud.  According to back to the future 2, we're supposed to have awesome tech like flying cars and hoverboards by 2015.  Blu-ray discs are simply smaller laser discs.  STOWPID!

Download/on-demand HD FTW!


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 27, 2008)

Dangle said:


> HD DVD FTW!!!! They need to drastically reduce the prices - for everyone.  If the format becomes a standard, they will make up all of their money over time.  We need 50-100 dollar players, and $15 discs.  Anyway, optical discs are lame technology.  This is 2008 for crying out loud.  According to back to the future 2, we're supposed to have awesome tech like flying cars and hoverboards by 2015.  Blu-ray discs are simply smaller laser discs.  STOWPID!
> 
> Download/on-demand HD FTW!




if they could drastically reduce prices they would. obviously they cant. and i have on demand HD and it blows because my cable provider (comcast) compresses the living crap out of the signal.


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## Ravenas (Jan 27, 2008)

Far from over I think not, seems Circuit city has dropped HD-DVD and has gone Blu-Ray exclusive:

http://www.1080living.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17


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## Triprift (Jan 28, 2008)

WarEagleAU said:


> so that 68CM tube is a 27" TV?



Yeah that would be about right love the metric system


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## Water Drop (Jan 28, 2008)

Snipe343 said:


> and microsoft is not?, and blue-ray disk is also the winner, just because it is the better format


Blu-Ray disk might be the winner, but it's not the better format.  It's plagued by too much DRM, ever changing standardized specifications, and the video quality is not quite up to par with HD-DVD.  HD-DVD is the superior format, and it's sad to see that it's failing.  The greedy MPAA and the movie studios are backing Blu-Ray because it has more consumer-screwing DRM then HD-DVD.  And as we know the MPAA loves to screw us.  Also Sony is a major player in both the MPAA and RIAA, making them without a doubt, the most evil corporation.

On a side note:  I never thought I'd see "Sony" and "innovation" in the same sentence, but I have been proven wrong by this thread.  Seriously what did Sony ever do that was innovative?  The Six-Axis Controller that copied the Microsoft Sidewinder Freestyle Pro gamepad that was released in 1999?


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## Ravenas (Jan 28, 2008)

Water Drop said:


> Blu-Ray disk might be the winner, but it's not the better format.  It's plagued by too much DRM, ever changing standardized specifications, and the video quality is not quite up to par with HD-DVD.  HD-DVD is the superior format, and it's sad to see that it's failing.  The greedy MPAA and the movie studios are backing Blu-Ray because it has more consumer-screwing DRM then HD-DVD.  And as we know the MPAA loves to screw us.  Also Sony is a major player in both the MPAA and RIAA, making them without a doubt, the most evil corporation.
> 
> On a side note:  I never thought I'd see "Sony" and "innovation" in the same sentence, but I have been proven wrong by this thread.  Seriously what did Sony ever do that was innovative?  The Six-Axis Controller that copied the Microsoft Sidewinder Freestyle Pro gamepad that was released in 1999?



Lol for someone to say, "what did Sony do that was innovative?", is quite ignorant in itself. Sony is a HUGE corporation with seeds in almost every field of technology. How could you say they haven't done anything innovative? Seems to me that in your mind you are just creating reasons to dislike Sony...

Also, the Blu-ray is more future proof than HD-DVD. 25gb > 15gb anyday.


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## Triprift (Jan 28, 2008)

Amen Ravenas i menchined a few innovative Sony products in previous posts but if ppl want to support a format which will be gone all together by the end of the year let em and weel be enjoyin the latest releases in blueray goodnesss.


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## Water Drop (Jan 28, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> Lol for someone to say what did Sony did that was innovative is quite ignorant in itself. Sony is a HUGE corporation with seeds in almost every field of technology. How could you say they haven't done anything innovative? Seems to me that in your mind you are just creating reasons to dislike Sony...
> 
> Also, the Blu-ray is more future proof than HD-DVD. 25gb > 15gb anyday.


Name one thing that Sony did that was innovative.

The movie studios are not gonna put more than one movie on a disc anyway, so 15GB is more then enough.  And HD-DVD also has a 30GB dual layer and a 51GB Triple-layer disc.  They will not put more than one movie on a disc because they want to sell you them separately at ridiculously high prices and rip you off.  And even when they do put more than one movie on a disc, it will be for possibly a Trilogy of some sort or a TV series.  In that case they'll probably still charge you like your buying a bunch of discs and put it in a big box, but they'll be just one disc inside.


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## Ravenas (Jan 28, 2008)

Water Drop said:


> Name one thing that Sony did that was innovative.
> 
> The movie studios are not gonna put more than one movie on a disc anyway, so 15GB is more then enough.  And HD-DVD also has a 30GB dual layer and a 51GB Triple-layer disc.  They will not put more than one movie on a disc because they want to sell you them separately at ridiculously high prices and rip you off.  And even when they do put more than one movie on a disc, it will be for possibly a Trilogy of some sort or a TV series.  In that case they'll probably still charge you like your buying a bunch of discs and put it in a big box, but they'll be just one disc inside.



You're right Sony hasn't done anything innovative, Sony is the the worst, most evil company in the world.


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## V lyx (Jan 28, 2008)

as long as prices are cheap I dont care who wins or if it's over or not, heh.


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## Hitsugaya_Toushirou (Jan 28, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> they're about $200 USD online here, too - on average - which means that they're actually a bit cheaper than $200 AUD (based on current conversion rates).
> 
> But, if you go to buy one in store, though, they're priced higher (based on our regional prices): BestBuy $299; Circuit City $550+ (burner capable)



I think i might have misunderstood what you said since it sounded like you said $200 USD is cheaper than $200 AUD, which is not true since $200AUD = $170USD.


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## Mussels (Jan 28, 2008)

Hitsugaya_Toushirou said:


> I'm not sure where in Australia your in but i'm in AU as well and $700.00 appears to be quite expensive. Anyway, as i mentioned in my previous post, just get a blu-ray drive for your computer for $200 AUD.



those were set top boxes in stores. Not online prices for PC hardware.



mrw1986 said:


> 85% of the people in this discussion are all fanboys against sony. Its quite hilarious.



85% of all techies hate sony. Its just a trend


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## Wile E (Jan 28, 2008)

Water Drop said:


> Blu-Ray disk might be the winner, but it's not the better format.  It's plagued by too much DRM, ever changing standardized specifications, and the video quality is not quite up to par with HD-DVD.  HD-DVD is the superior format, and it's sad to see that it's failing.  The greedy MPAA and the movie studios are backing Blu-Ray because it has more consumer-screwing DRM then HD-DVD.  And as we know the MPAA loves to screw us.  Also Sony is a major player in both the MPAA and RIAA, making them without a doubt, the most evil corporation.
> 
> On a side note:  I never thought I'd see "Sony" and "innovation" in the same sentence, but I have been proven wrong by this thread.  Seriously what did Sony ever do that was innovative?  The Six-Axis Controller that copied the Microsoft Sidewinder Freestyle Pro gamepad that was released in 1999?


There is no picture quality difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD, when you compare the same movie on both formats on the same TV. I own both, and 300, for instance, looks identical on either.

I don't like the drm on Blu-ray, but there's ways around that anyway. It's not like they'll ever construct a drm scheme that can't be cracked or bypassed.



Hitsugaya_Toushirou said:


> Anyway, as Mussels mentioned (on page 1) there isn't much need of these discs since you can just watch videos on your computer. HD Videos uses the H.264 video compression so you can just watch HD videos in MKV container. Most videos are usually released on the internet in the form of avi, which uses Xvid or DivX video, or mkv, which uses the same codec as HD video; H.264. Current DVD players can play DivX and Xvid videos so if you wanted you can watch these on your tv or if you prefer higher quality at a smaller filesize but don't mind watching it on your computer then get h.264 video in mkv container.


mkv can contain almost any codec. Xvid, divx, wmv, h264, mpg1, etc., etc. It's merely a container, no specific codec is attached to it.  Not picking, just pointing it out.


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## Mussels (Jan 28, 2008)

he did say H264 'HD videos in MKV container' - no need to specify, he already did


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## Wile E (Jan 28, 2008)

Mussels said:


> he did say H264 'HD videos in MKV container' - no need to specify, he already did


"or mkv, which uses the same codec as HD" - that's the part I was mainly addressing. It's sounds like he saying mkv=H.264 in that sentence. I was just clarifying that it doesn't always=H.264 (although it is the most common used in the container)


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## laszlo (Jan 28, 2008)

i don't care about BR or HDVD ;let the things settle down and buy then the format you like

but now for me and more than 50% (at least) of final consumer the old DVD format is enough;even when i watch a good dvd rip i can't see a big difference in quality so what's the point?


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## Mussels (Jan 28, 2008)

laszlo said:


> i don't care about BR or HDVD ;let the things settle down and buy then the format you like
> 
> but now for me and more than 50% (at least) of final consumer the old DVD format is enough;even when i watch a good dvd rip i can't see a big difference in quality so what's the point?



Quality of rips are one thing, depending on the size of your screen. I had a friend who said HD was bullshit and lies, because on his 17" CRT there was no difference - we looked, and it was true.

That said, you slap it on a high res screen (particulary a widescreen) and there is a massive difference. I have downloaded x264 anime which i own on DVD to see the difference, and the x264 versions just looked so much better. MPEG2 is just an old codec, and its not that great.


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## Triprift (Jan 28, 2008)

If you wach hd on a hd or true hd display you can notice the difference with improved res and sound its just here in oz on tv there aint a great deal of hd shows. Dvd is fine but hd is the future just as dvd was when it superseded vhs.


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## Hitsugaya_Toushirou (Jan 28, 2008)

Mussels said:


> those were set top boxes in stores. Not online prices for PC hardware.



Yeah, i knew you were talking about set top boxes but after looking around i guess your price range was reasonable. By the way, I meant $200 from a computer store not online but that doesn't matter i guess.



Wile E said:


> "or mkv, which uses the same codec as HD" - that's the part I was mainly addressing. It's sounds like he saying mkv=H.264 in that sentence. I was just clarifying that it doesn't always=H.264 (although it is the most common used in the container)



Sorry about the confusion. I was generalising since H.264 will only go into the mkv or mp4 containers but the mkv container is more commonly used since it has some useful features not found in mp4. and yes, mkv can contain any other video format since it's the most universal container, which can support any video and audio stream but usually it is unnecessary and there are probably other formats more fit for the video format (eg. MPEG2 video stream could be put in an mkv but it'll be more meaningful to put it in a m2v or mpeg container, or a Xvid or DivX video wouldn't need the extra b-frame support or the subtitle switch from mkv so avi is sufficient).
Also, i haven't found a video on the internet, which uses the mkv container without H.264 video except in some very rare cases where they put multiple subtitles to a non-h.264 video and they needed mkv's feature to switch between the subtitle languages.


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## Hitsugaya_Toushirou (Jan 28, 2008)

Anyway, both HD-DVD and Blu-ray won't be too great once UHDV, Ultra High Definition Video, is out since both these discs don't have the capacity. So if you keep waiting and waiting to buy your HD stuff then it'll be outdated before you know it. They've had UHDV working since 2003 so once some company gets a large enough compact capacity at a reasonable cost then this will be utilised since this is how HD worked, it never came into the market until these discs were available to consumers.

Well, personally i'm not planning on getting HD players anytime soon since h.264 video on my computer is good enough. Also, Mussels mentioned x264 anime but he probably meant h.264 anime encoded with x264, which is the best free h.264 encoder. (Most anime are released in H.264 and Xvid but i always go for h.264 since it's smaller and better quality... Xvid ones are only useful for people who watch it on their DivX supported DVD players)


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## Rava6e (Jan 28, 2008)

flashstar said:


> Remember folks, Sony has never won a format war.
> 
> Remember Betamax, minidiscs, UMD's, memory sticks, etc. Really, sony has only been successful at formats that are integral parts of their hardware.



And those damn CDs. They havent been very succesful.
Get a clue, from specs Blu-Ray is better than HD-DVD.

And to the guy that called sony the most evil company in the world, uh, MS ? Hello. Bill might contribute money to some good things, but he always gives money away to stuff he never wants you to know about, look into it.


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## Triprift (Jan 28, 2008)

Yeah and Betamax was actually the better format than vhs.


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## Ravenas (Jan 28, 2008)

Rava6e said:


> And those damn CDs. They havent been very succesful.
> Get a clue, from specs Blu-Ray is better than HD-DVD.
> 
> And to the guy that called sony the most evil company in the world, uh, MS ? Hello. Bill might contribute money to some good things, but he always gives money away to stuff he never wants you to know about, look into it.



Lol, there is always someone who doesn't understand sarcasm. 

I believe all corporations are just out to make a buck. None of them are really evil in my book, greedy maybe, but not evil.


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## Ravenas (Jan 28, 2008)

Gartner, the market research company, predicts Blu-ray to win. Prices are being cut on HD-DVD across the board, Toshiba is on its last leg:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,141869-c,dvdtechnology/article.html


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## Ravenas (Jan 28, 2008)

Woolworths has become the largest DVD retailer in the UK to support Blu-ray exclusively:

http://www.theretailbulletin.com/news/woolworths_backs_bluray_format_over_hd_dvd_28-01-08/


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## Wile E (Jan 29, 2008)

Hitsugaya_Toushirou said:


> Anyway, both HD-DVD and Blu-ray won't be too great once UHDV, Ultra High Definition Video, is out since both these discs don't have the capacity. So if you keep waiting and waiting to buy your HD stuff then it'll be outdated before you know it. They've had UHDV working since 2003 so once some company gets a large enough compact capacity at a reasonable cost then this will be utilised since this is how HD worked, it never came into the market until these discs were available to consumers.
> 
> Well, personally i'm not planning on getting HD players anytime soon since h.264 video on my computer is good enough. Also, Mussels mentioned x264 anime but he probably meant h.264 anime encoded with x264, which is the best free h.264 encoder. (Most anime are released in H.264 and Xvid but i always go for h.264 since it's smaller and better quality... Xvid ones are only useful for people who watch it on their DivX supported DVD players)


xvid comes in handy for low powered computers too. Also wanted to point out that you can get h.264 into an avi.

But yeah, you seem to have a handle on encoding/transcoding, so I'll quit picking nits. lol.


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## error_f0rce (Jan 29, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> I believe all corporations are just out to make a buck. None of them are really evil in my book, greedy maybe, but not evil.



Agreed.  I just don't see the need to play the morality card in an attempt to explain why companies try to make a profit.  It's all business 101... and I don't think we should start branding shrewd business practices as "evil", as that simply has nothing to do with it.  If we want to discuss business ethics, we can do that, but let's not confuse ethics with tactics.


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## Edito (Jan 29, 2008)

I think that all we have to do is wait and see the end of format war and chose the best of both, we must stop saing things like Sony Blu-Ray sucks or HD-DVD sucks we all have preferences and we must respect the others preferences and accept or deny the tecnology what the giants like Sony and Toshiba has to offer...


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## newtekie1 (Jan 29, 2008)

Blu-Ray won, it is only a matter of time.  All the Sony haters are idiots.  Blu-Ray isn't just Sony, it is a large group of companies.

So what if their players can upconvert DVD movies to 1080p, they still look like DVD movies.  My $30 standard DVD player upconverts DVDs, big freaking deal.  An upconverted DVD still looks like shit compared to a HD format(either one).

People don't care that the player is $100 cheaper.  Blu-Ray has more movies they want.  Only having one exclusive studio isn't enough.  HD-DVD is sunk.


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## Mussels (Jan 30, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Blu-Ray won, it is only a matter of time.  All the Sony haters are idiots.  Blu-Ray isn't just Sony, it is a large group of companies.
> 
> So what if their players can upconvert DVD movies to 1080p, they still look like DVD movies.  My $30 standard DVD player upconverts DVDs, big freaking deal.  An upconverted DVD still looks like shit compared to a HD format(either one).
> 
> People don't care that the player is $100 cheaper.  Blu-Ray has more movies they want.  Only having one exclusive studio isn't enough.  HD-DVD is sunk.



dont call sony haters idiots. sony has done some very stupid things in its time, and all you're going to do is start a flame war. Stick with real arguments such as your one about lack of movie titles - its quite a valid one.


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## Ravenas (Jan 30, 2008)

FS Film just went Blu-ray exclusive, Sonic is about to go blu-ray exclusive. What's even more funny...In Germany, Sony is paying HD-DVD owners 150$ to trade in their HD-DVD players for Blu-ray. LOL


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## newtekie1 (Jan 30, 2008)

Mussels said:


> dont call sony haters idiots. sony has done some very stupid things in its time, and all you're going to do is start a flame war. Stick with real arguments such as your one about lack of movie titles - its quite a valid one.



Your right, I phased that wrong.  I should have said: Everyone that hates Blu-Ray because they think it is all Sony are idiots.


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## Mussels (Jan 30, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Your right, I phased that wrong.  I should have said: Everyone that hates Blu-Ray because they think it is all Sony are idiots.



I hate sony because of crap they have done in the past. Very dodgy marketing of their consoles (i've seen ads claiming they had better graphics, citing final fantasy games. every ad/movie was of a pre-rendered CUTSCENE and they always compared to real time rendered game footage for the comparisons)

Sony also had the rootkit virus on their music CD's.

Its not that i wont buy blu-ray - but i wont buy SONY. You just cant buy BR in australia without getting sony, and its insanely overpriced.


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## Laurijan (Jan 30, 2008)

I read that the porn industy decided on using exclusivly HD-DVD


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## Ravenas (Jan 30, 2008)

Laurijan said:


> I read that the porn industy decided on using exclusivly HD-DVD



I read it was Blu-ray, and yet the porn industry hasn't decided on either yet.


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## Ravenas (Jan 30, 2008)

Mussels said:


> I hate sony because of crap they have done in the past. Very dodgy marketing of their consoles (i've seen ads claiming they had better graphics, citing final fantasy games. every ad/movie was of a pre-rendered CUTSCENE and they always compared to real time rendered game footage for the comparisons)
> 
> Sony also had the rootkit virus on their music CD's.
> 
> Its not that i wont buy blu-ray - but i wont buy SONY. You just cant buy BR in australia without getting sony, and its insanely overpriced.



LOL? Just so I'm getting this straight, you hate Sony because they say they have better graphics? Lol...


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## Ravenas (Jan 30, 2008)

National Geographic goes Blu-Ray exclusive


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## imperialreign (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> LOL? Just so I'm getting this straight, you hate Sony because they say they have better graphics? Lol...



Sony is abundant in "perspective" marketing - just like they claim that their car audio equiment is built the best in the industry and offers the best sound when compared to their competitors - which isn't the case as (for example) they don't have a 5-way 6"x9" speaker offering yet, and their build materials still fall behind leading technologies.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Blu-Ray if it wasn't for the fact that SONY is the biggest backer of the technology, and started it on it's feet years ago, and they've been the biggest factor in all the Blu-Ray under-dealings we keep hearing about.

Take SONY out of the equation, and I'll give Blu-Ray another chance . . . but, it is partially their technology in the first place . . .


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> Sony is abundant in "perspective" marketing - just like they claim that their car audio equiment is built the best in the industry and offers the best sound when compared to their competitors - which isn't the case as (for example) they don't have a 5-way 6"x9" speaker offering yet, and their build materials still fall behind leading technologies.
> 
> I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Blu-Ray if it wasn't for the fact that SONY is the biggest backer of the technology, and started it on it's feet years ago, and they've been the biggest factor in all the Blu-Ray under-dealings we keep hearing about.
> 
> Take SONY out of the equation, and I'll give Blu-Ray another chance . . . but, it is partially their technology in the first place . . .



Lol isn't it every company's objective to tell the consumer their product is the best. Lol, people dislike Sony for no reason, for reasons that don't even effect them. 

I would bet money that you could come up with 30 reasons to dislike Sony if you really put your mind to it (and I bet all of them could be reasons that have nothing to do with a Sony product you've owned). After you come up with that comprehensive list I can give you 30 reasons why I'm enjoying my Sony products.  I'm not a Sony extreme fanboy or anything. I'm just a person with the opinion that I've never had a bad or faulty Sony product. I mean hell, my PS1 still works the same as the day I bought it!


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> LOL? Just so I'm getting this straight, you hate Sony because they say they have better graphics? Lol...



My counter argument at the time was: and if i throw a copy of the matrix (movie) into an xbox, what awesome graphics it has too!

My hatred stems from dodgy advertising - pre-rendered footage doesnt count. it was a cutscene for gods sake.

It'd be like Nvidia releasing a game they say has the best graphics ever, and it was a choose your own adventure with DVD footage (oh and it cant run on ATI, because ATI 'arent good enough')


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Mussels said:


> My counter argument at the time was: and if i throw a copy of the matrix (movie) into an xbox, what awesome graphics it has too!
> 
> My hatred stems from dodgy advertising - pre-rendered footage doesnt count. it was a cutscene for gods sake.
> 
> It'd be like Nvidia releasing a game they say has the best graphics ever, and it was a choose your own adventure with DVD footage (oh and it cant run on ATI, because ATI 'arent good enough')



Ever heard the phrase: "Nvidia. The way it's meant to be played." You have to understand that it is every company's objective to make consumers believe that they have the best product.


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> Ever heard the phrase: "Nvidia. The way it's meant to be played." You have to understand that it is every company's objective to make consumers believe that they have the best product.



you're missing the point entirely. Its not about advertising in general - its FALSE, misleading advertising.

I dont care WHO says it, but if they start saying they have the best graphics because of some pre-rendered footage - thats bullshit, and i wont support that company.


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Mussels said:


> you're missing the point entirely. Its not about advertising in general - its FALSE, misleading advertising.
> 
> I dont care WHO says it, but if they start saying they have the best graphics because of some pre-rendered footage - thats bullshit, and i wont support that company.



No, it's your opinion that it is false.


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> No, it's your opinion that it is false.



unfortunately you cant say that. there is no argument to what youre saying, and that is a personal attack.

Thats really childish and proves you are a fanboy - why the hell should i buy from a company just because YOU like them?


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Mussels said:


> unfortunately you cant say that. there is no argument to what youre saying, and that is a personal attack.
> 
> Thats really childish and proves you are a fanboy - why the hell should i buy from a company just because YOU like them?



Of course there is an argument, you said the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics but neither one of us can prove that. That's why I said, no that's your opinion. I never said either company had the best graphics, I said each company wants their consumers to believe they have the best product. 

Wether you do or not, IS YOUR OPINION...


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> Of course there is an argument, you said the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics but neither one of us can prove that. That's why I said, no that's your opinion. I never said either company had the best graphics, I said each company wants their consumers to believe they have the best product.
> 
> Wether you do or not, IS YOUR OPINION...



i never mentioned the PS3. i was talking about the PS2. "your opinion is wrong" to quote you.
i never mentioned 'whats the best product' -- i'm talking about borderline illegal advertising.

Anyone who bought a PS2 because of the ads i saw (cutscenes from the final fantasy series) expecting that level of graphics was wildly dissapointed - none of the REAL TIME graphics was anything near that.

they havent done this with the PS3, but i dont forgive people for lying and then pretending it never happened.


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Mussels said:


> i never mentioned the PS3. i was talking about the PS2. "your opinion is wrong" to quote you.
> i never mentioned 'whats the best product' -- i'm talking about borderline illegal advertising.
> 
> Anyone who bought a PS2 because of the ads i saw (cutscenes from the final fantasy series) expecting that level of graphics was wildly dissapointed - none of the REAL TIME graphics was anything near that.
> ...



Lol your opinion is false because you flat out said that the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics. You don't know that. Neither do I. My opinion about the PS3 is that it has better games, but that's preference. And you can't say I'm wrong there. But graphically and benchmark wise, neither of us have any idea.


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## Mussels (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> Lol your opinion is false because you flat out said that the PS3 doesn't have the best graphics. You don't know that. Neither do I. My opinion about the PS3 is that it has better games, but that's preference. And you can't say I'm wrong there. But graphically and benchmark wise, neither of us have any idea.



i NEVER MENTIONED THE PS3.


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Mussels said:


> i NEVER MENTIONED THE PS3.



Lol, no kidding, you never mentioned any. You said Sony's advertising of their consoles. 

After you said Sony doesn't have the best graphics, in you next post you said you were talking about the PS2. Did you assume I knew which of the 3 consoles you were talking about? 

My previous posts also apply to the PS2. So it really doesn't matter. It's so funny though, you've gone from anti blu-ray to anti sony advertising to anti sony consoles. What's the next thing? The sony walkman? Did the sony walkman have false advertising too?


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## Wile E (Jan 31, 2008)

Mussels said:


> i never mentioned the PS3. i was talking about the PS2. "your opinion is wrong" to quote you.
> i never mentioned 'whats the best product' -- i'm talking about borderline illegal advertising.
> 
> Anyone who bought a PS2 because of the ads i saw (cutscenes from the final fantasy series) expecting that level of graphics was wildly dissapointed - none of the REAL TIME graphics was anything near that.
> ...


No offense Mussels, but then you shouldn't be buying any product from any company what so ever. Every single company on the face of the planet is guilty of this kind of false advertising in some way, shape or form. It's unreasonable to solely target one manufacturer for this.


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## PrudentPrincess (Jan 31, 2008)

Holy crap you would think that people with over 1000 posts would know when to stop a flame war.


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

PrudentPrincess said:


> Holy crap you would think that people with over 1000 posts would know when to stop a flame war.


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## Wile E (Jan 31, 2008)

PrudentPrincess said:


> Holy crap you would think that people with over 1000 posts would know when to stop a flame war.


That wasn't directed at me, was it? I wasn't trying to flame anyone.


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## PrudentPrincess (Jan 31, 2008)

Naw you posted right after I did.


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

Wile E said:


> That wasn't directed at me, was it? I wasn't trying to flame anyone.



I'm sure it wasn't you, lol... You just kinda stepped into that conversation.


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## flashstar (Jan 31, 2008)

Ok, let me just step in here for a sec...


HD-DVD owns

Blu-ray sucks 

there


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## imperialreign (Jan 31, 2008)

Ravenas said:


> Lol isn't it every company's objective to tell the consumer their product is the best. Lol, people dislike Sony for no reason, for reasons that don't even effect them.
> 
> I would bet money that you could come up with 30 reasons to dislike Sony if you really put your mind to it (and I bet all of them could be reasons that have nothing to do with a Sony product you've owned). After you come up with that comprehensive list I can give you 30 reasons why I'm enjoying my Sony products.  I'm not a Sony extreme fanboy or anything. I'm just a person with the opinion that I've never had a bad or faulty Sony product. I mean hell, my PS1 still works the same as the day I bought it!



Well, I have owned some SONY products over the years, usually along the lines of willing to test things out, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Still falling back onto car audio, as this is one market of theirs I've had more experience with their products - their equipment is designed to work specifically with their components.  Although, they never advertise this on their packaging of either their speakers, amplifiers or head units, the hardware specifications and output ratings are designed such that you will have very poor audio quality should you mix their components with another brand.

For example - installing a powerful Pioneer head unit couple with 4 Xplod speakers (pick any size that the head unit can drive), the sound playback will be flat, or won't have enough low-end.  Comparatively, if you took the same speaker sizes, from any other brand, it'll be a night and day difference - also taking into account that Pioneer designs for their components, also, but the keep the technical aspects to more of an industry 'standard'.  A SONY head unit will sound like a waste of $300, unless coupled with SONY speakers.

Plus, poor build quality, way over priced, poor warranties, lower quality materials when compared to competition.  You're spending more for the SONY logo so one can be SONY loyal than you are for actual product.

Case in point, let's look at two similar speaker offeringsfrom both Pioneer and SONY:

Pioneer Premier TS-A932 (3-way 6"x9"):
Woofer Cone Material: Composite IMPP (Injection Molded Polypropylene) cone with interlaced Aramid Fiber 
Surround: Foamed rubber coated cloth 
Mid-Range: 1-13/16" Light Weight Balanced Dome with Magnetic Fluid 
Tweeter: 11/16" Silver PET Film Dome 
Watts MAX. Music Power: 300 Watts 
Watts Nominal Power Handling: 40 Watts 
Frequency Response: 28Hz ~ 33kHz 
Sensitivity (1W/1m): 93dB 
Ohm Rating: 4 ohm 

Average price: $67


Sony Xplode XS-GT6935 (3-way 6"x9"):
Woofer cone material: HOP (Highly Oriented Polyolefine) 
Surround: cloth
Midrange: 2-3/8" HDLD (High Density Layared Diaphragm) cone
Tweeter: 7/16" HDLD (High Density Layered Diaphragm) dome 
Watts MAX. Music Power : 300 Watts 
Watts Nominal Power Handling : 60 Watts 
Sensitivity (1W/1m) : 90dB 
Frequency response 35Hz ~ 25kHz 
Ohm Rating : 4 

Average price: $80


The Pioneer unit is made of better materials, has a better response range and offer better sound production at a lower cost.

I'm sorry, but in this instance, if you're an informed consumer, I'd have to say that there's no point in purchasing the SONY product unless you're willing to accept some sacrifices for the brand.


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## Ravenas (Jan 31, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> Well, I have owned some SONY products over the years, usually along the lines of willing to test things out, giving them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Still falling back onto car audio, as this is one market of theirs I've had more experience with their products - their equipment is designed to work specifically with their components.  Although, they never advertise this on their packaging of either their speakers, amplifiers or head units, the hardware specifications and output ratings are designed such that you will have very poor audio quality should you mix their components with another brand.
> 
> ...



TBH, I have to agree with the audio division of Sony. They really need to work on their iPod adapter. Only bad Sony product I've owned.


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