# AC power line flicker with brand new build



## MachineMedic (Mar 6, 2016)

- SOLVED -

Read here:
AC power line flicker with brand new build - Post #64​


Hello there.

About a week ago, I put together my brand new dream computer from parts that I have been carefully researching and saving up for over the course of the last 6+ months.  So far, everything has been running fairly smoothly with the exception of a nuisance that has so far proven to be very upsetting from both visual and troubleshooting standpoints.

Whenever my system is powered on and not under load (whenever I am NOT running Fallout 4, Skyrim, etc.), I am experiencing severe and continuous disturbance of my house wiring system.  All of the lights connected to the same circuit as the machine will incessantly flicker at a rate of roughly 10Hz.  These symptoms have been immediately noticeable since the very first time I POST-ed the system with only the RAM and CPU installed.

In addition, when I AM running a game or heavy application, I begin to notice interference on my connected analog DVI monitor, and the light flickering disappears almost entirely.  The interference on my monitor takes the form of at least one horizontal line that looks somewhat visually similar to a horizontal CRT sweep (what you tend to see when you try to record a CRT screen with a digital camera) and will move up or down depending heavily on frame rate, with 60FPS holding the lines relatively static. When I duplicated my video output on a digital HDMI monitor, no such interference was present.










*I have ruled out the possibility of bad wiring or input power by running the system from different house circuits (flickering follows), as well as powering the system from a UPS module that was entirely disconnected from external power.  In the latter case, I could plainly hear the UPS output pulsing at the same rate that the lights tend to flicker.*

I took the liberty of scoping my house's power signal, and here is what I found:


Spoiler











I was not able to find any voltage spikes or critical deviations with pass/fail mode over the course of a good minute or so.



Spoiler










My incoming sine wave is slightly distorted, but not beyond any standards that would typically be considered 'acceptable'.  This is likely because there are many other loads on the transformer supplying our building, and not of major concern.  There are a few harmonics in our power system, but nothing that could account for this sort of behavior.  The above picture is actually a composite of images taken both when the system was powered on, and when it was turned off.  As you can see, there is no obvious difference.



Spoiler










Here's the interesting bit.  When I zoomed in very tightly, I *DID* measure a regularly occurring deviation of about 3-4 volts peak near the very tips and troughs of my sine wave when the system was running, between around 172 and 175 volts peak (10X scope probes).  This is clearly moderate to major interference being generated by my system.

I have already tested the system with a factory tested warranty replacement power supply provided by EVGA, and the symptoms have not changed.  I have powered up the system with every last component removed except for the power supply, motherboard, and CPU, and the problem still persists.  I have updated from UEFI revision P1.40 to P2.00, to no avail.

I am awaiting a response from ASRock tech support to see if they have any words of wisdom on the subject, and barring any recommended config changes or pin jumper swaps from them, my next step will be to RMA the entire motherboard.  If that doesn't resolve the issue, then I will have to try a different make and model of power supply to see if EVGA is using a bad design in this power supply, or else try to move on to symptomatic cures.

System specs:

CPU: Intel i7 5820k
MOBO: ASRock X99 OC Formula
Cooler: Noctua NH-D15S
RAM: Corsair 4x8GB 2133MHz DDR4 kit W/XMP
GPU: MSI 980 Ti Lightning
Storage: Samsung SSD 950 512GB, Western Digital Blue 1TB/7200
PSU: EVGA SuperNova 1000 P2
OS: Windows 10 W/plans to dual boot Linux Mint 17.
UEFI: X99OCF Chips A & B P1.40 from the factory, chip A later flashed to P2.00
The system is not presently in a case, and is sitting on top of a nonmetallic shelf with some spare aluminum standoffs I had lying around.  I don't think this could be a board grounding issue, but perhaps someone here can bring forth some enlightening information on the subject.

Has anyone else had a problem like this with this degree of severity?  Does anyone have any knowledge or advice that might help here?  I've spent the better part of the last year looking forward to building myself a nice computer, and I'm not sure what else to do from this point onward to fix this issue.

S.O.S.

Bring engineers.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 6, 2016)

Ground loop? Try without the ground the monitor. A leaking Y cap somewhere... it could be anywhere in your house. I even had spikes with gas dicharge bulbs in power switches... 

Aren't anything touching your central heating system, if you have one...


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## MachineMedic (Mar 6, 2016)

I just disconnected my monitor's AC power connector to check the ground loop theory, but the flickering was not affected.

The flickering was not abated even when powering the system from an isolated UPS module, so I'm not particularly inclined to believe that the fault lies on the AC side of things.

:c


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 6, 2016)

The UPS does isolate ground? 

I just have a power supple cable with cut out ground wire and use it for testing. Usually the monitor supply is very poorly done.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 6, 2016)

The UPS was connected only to the computer PSU.  In retrospect, I only tested it by opening the ungrounded [live/hot] conductor feeding the UPS, but the sound emitted by the unit during operation was much more of a discrete on/off hiss-buzz-hiss-buzz alternation at a rate of around 10Hz than the constant hum caused by a ground loop.

The system is resting entirely on a wooden desk shelf, away from any conductive surfaces.  The symptoms were present when no other components were present, so there is no way that I can think of that a ground loop might have been established.  The only paths to ground that I can visually see are the monitor power cable, and the computer PSU's power cable.  Disconnecting the monitor entirely did not clear the issue, and the issue was present before the monitor was initially connected to the system during first POST.


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## Azumay (Mar 7, 2016)

I take it you have tried other outlets?  Pack up rig and take to some one else's place and see what it does.
May be some kinda crazy ground. Check grounds.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

The build is in no condition to be moved being that I am still waiting for a case to put the system in.  MountainMods have phased out their 7PCI Horizon back panels, and are queuing production for 10PCI Horizon panels.

I can try isolating my PSU from ground to see if that helps, but not until tomorrow (bed time over here).

I'd like to set up a current shunt so I can have a look at what the current waveform is looking like, but that will take some time to put together.


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## R-T-B (Mar 7, 2016)

If it were me and I did not have the equipment you have, I would've simply returned the PSU.  (While Superflower based EVGAs are good, they are not perfect and I've heard Superflower is outsourcing some of the production with mixed results).  That would simply allow me to rule out the PSU.

If downtime is not acceptable, and you have the time, knowledge, and equipment to diagnose further (you seem to), you are way ahead of me.  Keep us informed as to what you find out though, I am very curious.


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## CBRworm (Mar 7, 2016)

I have a similar situation, but without the monitor oddities.  My PC which is an X87 based Asus board w/ an i7-4790K & AMD HD7970.  I also have a Dell M4700 laptop.  Both of these cause my office lights to flicker w/ CPU usage.  The PC and Laptop both cause a constant flickering when idle.  Under high load, the lights dim slightly but the flickering stops.  

I have a Seasonic X750 power supply in the machine now, originally I had an Ultra X-1000 which I swapped to an Enermax Galaxy and then the Seasonic.  None of them had any effect on the flickering, but at least the seasonic is quiet.  Everything is connected to an APC SmartUPS SMT-1500.

I have never had this issue with older builds.  

I suspect my issue is due to the fact that my office lights are a combination of fluorescent and LED lights.  I'll be interested to see if you find a resolution, or just live with it like I do.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

@R-T-B:
I've already tried replacing the power supply with a factory tested replacement to no avail.  If the power supply is the culprit, then it must be by design flaw rather than electrical or mechanical defect.

@CBRworm:
The fact that you tried many different makes and models of power supplies to remedy your problem to no avail would reinforce my current suspicion that the problem is likely related to the motherboard or processor itself if both of our problems are indeed related in some way.  If you just so happen to have a spare motherboard collecting dust somewhere, I would be curious to see what would happen if you connected your power supply to a different board and processor.


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## bencrutz (Mar 7, 2016)

faulty motherboard?
it could be from the VRM, basically it chops the DC current within certain frequency. Any anomaly from the VRM? excessive heat perhaps?


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

The board temperature sensor near the Vcc(in) FETs has never really showed much for high temperatures.  The whole board really likes to stay below 50*C by a good margin.  The only part of the board that tends to get warmer than that is the PCH/Southbridge/chipset area, which I've noticed sometimes creeps up to 53-54*C when gaming.

CPU likes to hover around 45-55*C under load (at 30-35% fan speed too, hehe), and the GPU's factory fan curve clamps it to about 65*C when the fans even run at all.

Nonetheless, I still suspect something may very well be funky with one of the input stages like you say, as that is the likely spot that a power anomaly like this would probably be generated.  The VRMs switch at frequencies in the 100-500kHz range, but if some control logic or the likes is stuck in a feedback loop telling it to switch between two different modes or some other nonsense like that, that could definitely produce this sort of effect.  The question then would be why nothing is getting warm if it is drawing enough power to manifest as an AC power disturbance.

I suddenly have a new suspicion that this might have something to do with power factor and the active power factor correction built into the power supply turning on and off repeatedly.

...I really need to set up a current probe to see what is going on on the input side of the power supply.  Something tells me I shouldn't be surprised if I find a Cosθ that is jumping back and forth at the magical ~10Hz.


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## JunkBear (Mar 7, 2016)

It could be a sign of defective wall outlet.   Bad wiring or malfunction in the breaker itself.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

@JunkBear:



			
				MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> I have ruled out the possibility of bad wiring or input power by running the system from different house circuits (flickering follows), as well as powering the system from a UPS module that was entirely disconnected from external power. In the latter case, I could plainly hear the UPS output pulsing at the same rate that the lights tend to flicker.



I suppose in addition to probing the power supply input current, I could also look into scoping some of the Vcheck points on the board to see if there are any anomalous waveforms manifesting there or if I am in fact getting pure DC like I should.

With that, I'm going to say good night for now.  I want to say thank you to all of you for your quick responses and for and providing me with fresh perspectives on this matter.


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## jaggerwild (Mar 7, 2016)

I don't suppose you have to much stuff on the 110 line, causing undue stress on the circuit? I don't know what the ratting is, but due know only so many wall jacks can be put on a circuit. Also depends on the circuit breaker and its ratting, Your lights don't dim if you run a washing machine's or dish washer? Though the computer is causing it, the computer runs fine hence I think it's something in the house not the computer. I'd like to know how many other things are running on the circuit while your gaming? 
 Try grounding the motherboard to the PSU, the sign wave looks fine. Your barking up the wrong tree, put yer sun glasses on and enjoy the computer. Better yet shut off the lights!!! Who games with the lights on anyway?


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## Caring1 (Mar 7, 2016)

I'd be more concerned your lights are on the same power circuit as the power outlets.
To me, that seems odd as they are separate here where I live as a design code during construction.


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## R-T-B (Mar 7, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> I'd be more concerned your lights are on the same power circuit as the power outlets.
> To me, that seems odd as they are separate here where I live as a design code during construction.



That is an excellent point I didn't think of.  Yep, they are separate in all homes I've seen.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

The branch circuit is far from overloaded, and our 100 amp service is rarely pushed even remotely close to it's capacity.

In the US, NEC-2014 allows a switched receptacle to be installed in place of a lighting outlet in the ceiling.  That is what the installers did with this room.  There is also no legal requirement to wire lighting outlets and receptacles on separate branch circuits.  The NFPA publishes their codes as absolute minimum safety standards - following electrical code does not mean that the installation will actually work... it just won't be likely to end up killing anybody.  The actual design and execution of the work is entirely up to the electrician on site beyond code minimums.

I'm not saying that is necessarily the way it should be or the best standard that could possibly be invented, but the law is the law, and I avoided law school for a reason.

Again,


			
				MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> I have ruled out the possibility of bad wiring or input power by running the system from different house circuits (flickering follows), as well as powering the system from a UPS module that was entirely disconnected from external power. In the latter case, I could plainly hear the UPS output pulsing at the same rate that the lights tend to flicker.



It *could* conceivably have something to do with the power factor correction circuitry in the power supply if it is poorly designed and constantly stuck in a control-level feedback loop of some sort.  It could somehow be a grounding issue that I haven't isolated yet.  But given that similar symptoms were still exhibited when the system was powered from a _battery operated inverter_, I do not believe that the incoming power waveform has anything to do with this problem, other than a poor electrical design choice in my room likely exacerbating the issue.

The computer should not cause a 4 volt fluctuation near only the peaks of my sine wave under any given conditions, regardless of whatever circuit it is connected to.

My main concern is that this is something that could potentially shorten the lifespan of the components inside of my computer considerably.  Capacitors that are exposed to heavy ripple voltages will heat up, dry out and expire long before the same caps that were exposed only to pure DC.

It should also be noted that this flickering is far too severe in person to even consider ignoring.  Think stress-headache-slash-almost-epilepsy-trigger intensity.  The entire room is like a disco party, and I only have one window in my room that doesn't add enough light to substitute electric lighting.

Sorry for any typos, in a rush this morning.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 7, 2016)

Maybe something silly as someone actually has wired the ground wrong and uses it as neutral?


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## jaggerwild (Mar 7, 2016)

Ferrum Master said:


> Maybe something silly as someone actually has wired the ground wrong and uses it as neutral?



 Bingo!! Or no ground at all, but the wall plugs are UP TO CODE................


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## Sasqui (Mar 7, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> I'd be more concerned your lights are on the same power circuit as the power outlets.
> To me, that seems odd as they are separate here where I live as a design code during construction.



Not terribly uncommon to see that.

I'd unplug the PSU from the PC and shunt the green and black wires on the PSU motherboard power connector (turn the disconnected PSU on), see if the problem still exists so you can definitively rule out the PSU.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 7, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> as well as powering the system from a UPS module that was entirely disconnected from external power.


If you have everything connected to your computer (monitors, speakers, network gear, external drives) and the computer powered through the UPS, then you pull the UPS plug from the wall running everything off the UPS batteries, and you still see lights flickering, then the problem is due to excessive RFI/EMI being emanated from the computer or UPS. My first through is the PSU, but you already replaced that. So I would suspect the motherboard. That said, the clock frequency of the motherboard is much faster than 10Hz. Maybe an arcing drive or fan motor?

Bypass the UPS and plug everything into the wall. If still flicking, it is not the UPS. Disconnect the audio and power cables from the speakers and see what happens.

Make sure your house wiring is properly grounded. Use an *AC Outlet Tester* to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded.

Take your computer to a friends house and see what happens there.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> I have ruled out the possibility of bad wiring or input power by running the system from different house circuits (flickering follows), as well as powering the system from a UPS module that was entirely disconnected from external power. In the latter case, I could plainly hear the UPS output pulsing at the same rate that the lights tend to flicker.



Again, I am confident beyond a reasonable doubt that the house wiring is perfectly fine.  I just measured it with my Fluke and inspected the terminations on the receptacle to be doubly sure.  The house was built in 2001, the receptacle polarity checks out just fine, the typical neutral-to-ground potential of 1-2 volts is present to indicate a continuous ground, and the UPS is totally out of the equation [returned to the store before I made my OP].  It is not a fan, motor, arcing commutator, or any other related peripheral in the system besides the potential culprits of the PSU, CPU, or motherboard as evidenced by the symptoms I took the time to carefully lay out in my OP that some people seem to be selectively ignoring:



			
				MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> These symptoms have been immediately noticeable since the very first time I POST-ed the system with only the RAM and CPU installed.





			
				MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> I have powered up the system with every last component removed except for the power supply, motherboard, and CPU, and the problem still persists.



I am a final semester student in the field of Electrical Construction and Maintenance Technology A.A.S. and scored a straight 4.0 GPA last semester.  The problem is _not_ being generated from the AC side - the symptoms of what evidently must be an internal problem with the computer are manifesting as a 3-4 volt sine wave disturbance that is causing the flicker.

I am not trying to be rude, but I get impatient when I need to quote my own OP multiple times in a row.

@Sasqui: I've tried connecting a dummy jumper to the power supply with no loads connected to it, and the unit powers up with no flicker.  I am not sure if this is a result of the unit simply not being under load, or whether this is actually evidencing an issue with the motherboard as I am inclined suspect.


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## JunkBear (Mar 7, 2016)

The question is....Does it make 1.21 GigaWatts??


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

@JunkBear:


			
				JunkBear said:
			
		

> The question is....Does it make 1.21 GigaWatts??



The available fault current on the circuit supplying my room is equal to or less than 10kA.  Since it is a single phase branch circuit, we can assume that the available instantaneous fault power will be less than Pf=If*Vp.  From 10,000*170 we get a result of 1,700,000 Watts, or 1.7 Megawatts.

In order to have any chance of achieving a result of 1.21GW, you would need equal to or in excess of If=Pf/Vp where Pf=1,210,000,000 watts.  That calculates to a fault current of about 7 Megamperes on a 120 volt circuit, about 1.45 Megamperes on a 277/480 volt circuit, or 50.5 Kiloamperes on a 13,800 volt power line.

Does that answer your question?

[/derail]


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## Sasqui (Mar 7, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> . I am not sure if this is a result of the unit simply not being under load, or whether this is actually evidencing an issue with the motherboard as I am inclined suspect.



Yes with zero load it's not definitive... without going thru the posts, you have no way of borrowing another PC or components to eliminate the culprit?


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## MachineMedic (Mar 7, 2016)

One of my family members has their personal computer that is likely built on the ATX standard, but I'm not sure If I will be able to get permission to mess around inside said computer.

I might be able to call in some favors or something.  We'll see.

I finally got a response from ASRock, and they recommend I go through with the RMA process with the retailer I bought the board from, so I've completed the necessary forms to that end and am awaiting an RMA number as well as an answer to whether or not I can get a cross-shipped RMA.  I will probably be stuck without my new computer for the next three weeks, knowing my luck.  At least on the bright side, I will probably have a case to put everything in by the time I do get a replacement board.

Too many emotions.

:s


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## jaggerwild (Mar 8, 2016)

Plus your not even sure its the board, RMA is just swapping parts hopping you got the part that is causing it. You could end up RMAING everything and still have the issue......Then what?


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## JunkBear (Mar 8, 2016)

You never seen Back to the future movie. Dont you? 





MachineMedic said:


> @JunkBear:
> 
> 
> The available fault current on the circuit supplying my room is equal to or less than 10kA.  Since it is a single phase branch circuit, we can assume that the available instantaneous fault power will be less than Pf=If*Vp.  From 10,000*170 we get a result of 1,700,000 Watts, or 1.7 Megawatts.
> ...


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## Toothless (Mar 8, 2016)

JunkBear said:


> You never seen Back to the future movie. Dont you?


Bruh, you're derailing.


To the OP, anyone else in the house having issues in their room? Like a family member turning on their rig and lights flickering? I ask because when I boot my stuff, only my lights in my room flicker.

Sorry if that was addressed already; was skimming the thread.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

@jaggerwild:

If I swap every part in the system and still cannot eliminate the problem, then I will be able to rest more easily knowing that I have tried every conceivable remedy, rather than being lazy and giving up.  It's better than sitting on my thumbs while I get a headache from watching the wall behind my monitor constantly pulsing.

I have narrowed down the possible culprits to no more than three different parts.  I've already tried switching one.  I'm in the process of switching another.  The remaining part is very unlikely to be the cause.  By my count, that makes it a 50% chance of remedy.

You are welcome to contribute ideas to this thread, but if you have nothing helpful or constructive to add, then I would ask that you please keep your negativity to yourself.

@JunkBear:

I got the reference.  Ask a smartass question and you will get a smartass answer in turn.

EDIT:

@Toothless:
I seem to be the only one with this problem.  Nobody in my household has ever complained of such an issue before.

The retailer is reviewing my RMA request now, and the language used in the email sent to me suggested that the RMA will likely be approved within a day or three.  I've had to revert to my old toaster-grade laptop that I thought I had finally decommissioned for good in order to take pictures of the socket pins for their RMA process.  I didn't really feel like putting everything back together and re-greasing the chip just to take it all back down again in a few days when it goes through, so I've packed all of the parts back up into their factory packages for now.

Crossing my fingers.

:c


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## JunkBear (Mar 8, 2016)

Look if you are moody dont come on social media dude.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

whatever the issue is its with your home's wiring ...  that I can guarantee, would replacing the power supply with a different unit  fix the symptoms maby. but there is nothing wrong here other then some as you put it ... terrible wiring choices by who ever built the place
its impossible for the motherboard to be the cause of this ...
incidentally is that light LED or CCFL ? I have seen both be sensitive to EMI usually its LED if also seen wifi radios cause this with some LEDs/CCFLs


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## JunkBear (Mar 8, 2016)

OneMoar said:


> whatever the issue is its with your home's wiring ...  that I can guarantee, would replacing the power supply with a different unit  fix the symptoms maby. but there is nothing wrong here other then some as you put it ... terrible wiring choices by who ever built the place
> its impossible for the motherboard to be the cause of this ...
> incidentally is that light LED or CCFL ? I have seen both be sensitive to EMI



Yup. Depending of decades and countries you may have copper wires and aluminum wires. If you mix both there will be a difference in metal heat so making a shortage in some places.


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## Caring1 (Mar 8, 2016)

I've seen fluorescent lighting affect televisions and monitors, but never the other way around.
Could the motherboards surge protection be causing this, can it be turned off?


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

JunkBear said:


> Yup. Depending of decades and countries you may have copper wires and aluminum wires. If you mix both there will be a difference in metal heat so making a shortage in some places.


or a transformer operating in the same range causing feedback or 
if I plug my radio in in the basement I can make the lights flicker on and off with the music lol
might be EMI inducting some noise in the lines
but 9/10 times its simply a bad ground a bad ground can be prone to picking up radio-frequency noise if that light is a LED or CCFL then the inverter/starter might be picking the noise up


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

@MachineMedic time to get midevil get yourself a roll of HD aluminum foil and tent the machine..


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

@JunkBear:

Please stop derailing my thread.

Once is fine.  Twice gets annoying.  Three or more times is a nuisance.

@OneMoar:


			
				OneMoar said:
			
		

> whatever the issue is its with your home's wiring ... that I can guarantee, would replacing the power supply with a different unit fix the symptoms maby but there is nothing wrong here other then some terrible wiring choices by who ever built the place
> incidentally is that light LED or CCFL ? I have seen both be sensitive to EMI



The lights are primarily incandescent, with one LED source not visible.

I can tell you that the load center is a Square D QO style tub and main lug backplane fed by a 100 amp feeder directly from our complex switchgear room through EMT, with a 15 amp QO breaker feeding my room through two wire w/ground #14AWG copper nonmetallic sheathed cable to a typical daisy chain of receptacles around the room.  Where is the issue?  What exact part of my distribution system are you referring to when you say you can guarantee there is a problem with my home's wiring?  Tell me where you think the problem is, and I will open it up and have a look.

In regards to mixing aluminum and copper wires, I already mentioned that the house was wired in 2001.  Aluminum wires under around #6AWG haven't been used in decades, and unless I am mistaken, there is an NFPA-70 article forbidding their use anyways.  There is no aluminum wire in this house aside from the feeder conductors, and there is no galvanic action occurring between dissimilar metals.

On a side node, have some cool pics of the LGA-2011 V3 socket area and the bottom of a Haswell-E chip.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> @JunkBear:
> 
> Please stop derailing my thread.
> 
> ...


because if you change outlets the problem goes away .... ergo you have a wiring fault somewhere
id be pulling the cover off that box and poking ar

what you are describing sounds exactly like the wiring not up to the task and showing the ripple from the switching of the psu ..
switching power supplies are noisy they introduce a lot of high-frequency ripple if the wiring is not up to spec it will show could also be for whatever reason the light is close to the same phase as the psu and its making the effect worse


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

OneMoar said:
			
		

> because if you change outlets the problem goes away .... ergo you have a wiring fault somewhere
> id be pulling the cover off that box and poking around there with the scope





			
				MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> *I have ruled out the possibility of bad wiring or input power by running the system from different house circuits (flickering follows), as well as powering the system from a UPS module that was entirely disconnected from external power. In the latter case, I could plainly hear the UPS output pulsing at the same rate that the lights tend to flicker.*












Sorry, but this is the fourth time I've quoted that exact same line to people that won't read.  My patience has expired.

Good night, lol.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

stupid question: have you tried changing the light-bulb ?


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> Sorry, but this is the fourth time I've quoted that exact same line to people that won't read.  My patience has expired.
> 
> Good night, lol.


I won't read it because it doesn't matter even physically isolated circuits and pickup noise electricity like everything else is just a form of light I wanted you to scope the panel to see if you could see the spikes you where getting from that side of the circuit

change the bulb and possibly the fixture and see if it goes away
if its on a dimmer switch bypass it ...  triacs have a habit of making any noise worse they particularly dislike any kind of EMI
also your just a wee-bit arrogant if you want our help do less arguing and more listening


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

OneMoar said:
			
		

> also your just a wee-bit arrogant if you want our help do less arguing and more listening





			
				OneMoar said:
			
		

> I won't read it because it doesn't matter





			
				OneMoar said:
			
		

> I wanted you to scope the panel to see if you could see the spikes you where getting from that side of the circuit





			
				MachineMedic's original post said:
			
		

> I took the liberty of scoping my house's power signal, and here is what I found:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read.

It's all there.

All of it.

Every single bit.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> Read.
> 
> It's all there.
> 
> ...


you scoped the mains or the individual circuit you did not specify where was the meter located during testing, have you checked the scope to insure its not a problem
again you missed the point of the instructions I gave you testing the specific circuit that runs to that room at the box would tell me if the noise showing in the circuit or if the noise you are seeing is a product of the fixture interacting with some form of EMI or if you have anouther source of noise thats a contributing factor or if its just plain old circuit harmonics at work

this is the problem with your generation you get a scope and suddenly you are a engineer at GE ... tell ya what try asking your teacher because hes gonna tell you the same thing
enjoy figuring it out I gave you all the clues put it together mr smarty pants


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## JunkBear (Mar 8, 2016)

I seen spikes like these in a house where the refrigerator or the cubic freezer was starting to get defective. When the timer was going on to start the freezing period it would flicker lights in the house. We are just trying to help you but we are not there to see exactly what you see so dont get agressive we are not a community for that.


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## R-T-B (Mar 8, 2016)

Also remember that selective reading is a trait of the internet.  It's not just us, so a little patience goes a long ways.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 8, 2016)

We are not a red cross. Take it or leave it.

No matter he ain't the only one with a degree in electronics. The experience that lacks he that is... often blinded by own false conlusions not seing the obvious in front of his nose. Like shining star that's actually the fuse in the wall lol.

Especially not being able to pinpoint even the faulty part at his home, a bit silly. We cannot just spend a whole day guiding on complete blind someone. Just give some ideas.

You have to exclude the faulty part and you still haven't done it. Get the gear and and go somewhere else and power it on. Bill already told you that. Obviously there is no use testing the PSU alone powering some dummy load, it should be the same.


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## Toothless (Mar 8, 2016)

Now if only quite a few members can apply the sense used in the last 4 posts to normal posts. 

Sorry if you end up in circles OP, TPU is like the viking child of the tech department.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm sorry for getting frustrated.

I've been running on a handful of hours of sleep for way too long, trying to meet deadlines, and people missing previous posts just does it in the rest of the way.

If it'll make you all feel better, I'll bring the PSU, CPU and motherboard over to a completely different house and put them together over there today.  If you want me to bring, do, or test anything specific while I am over there, you need to let me know now.  I.E. if you _really_ want me to drag a 100 lb shielded isolating transformer over there with me or something like that.


To answer your questions;

The scope was connected to the receptacle supplying the incandescent lighting fixture, which is part of the daisy-chain of receptacles in the room that eventually feed the computer.  My scope is only Cat II, so I really _shouldn't_ be sticking it in any load centers anyways.  There are almost no fluorescent lights in the house, and they are usually off.  The only dimmer switches in the house are downstairs, and they are usually off when it is not dinner time.  My first scope was a broken Tektronix 465 that I restored back to working order when I was about 15, and I'm not exactly the fondest of GE anyways.

Out of time, running out the door atm.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 8, 2016)

Sometimes it can be a great idea to take a step back and sleep on it a night or two. It's not like the flicker will take down your components or PC between now and 48 hours.

Fresh mind, fresh look can work miracles.


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## Sasqui (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> If it'll make you all feel better, I'll bring the PSU, CPU and motherboard over to a completely different house and put them together over there today.



That or a different circuit in your house... pardon if you already did that.  Last year, I witnessed a circular saw failing on a long extension cord... I literally thought the brush(es) failed since I had another saw that worked.  Put it on a shorter cord and it was fine.


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## Slizzo (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> The system is not presently in a case, and is sitting on top of a nonmetallic shelf with some spare aluminum standoffs I had lying around.  I don't think this could be a board grounding issue, but perhaps someone here can bring forth some enlightening information on the subject.



I may be talking out my ass, but could the fact that this system is not in a case as of yet be contributing to the issues?


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## Sasqui (Mar 8, 2016)

Slizzo said:


> I may be talking out my ass, but could the fact that this system is not in a case as of yet be contributing to the issues?



Not likely but not impossible.  People (present company included) do open tabletop builds for testing new builds all the time.


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## jaggerwild (Mar 8, 2016)

I've seen lights flicker when the fridge turns on, so A its the computer or B its the house wiring. strap on a tin foil hat call it a day................The MATRIX HAS YOU!


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 8, 2016)

Id say breakers or issues beyond your power panel. I see it happen on treadmills even. Id suggest taking the rig to a friends home and plug it straight into a wall without any other equipment in said room.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

Only have a few minutes to type this...

I have spoken with 3 of my instructors (20-50yr. Master electricians, one a former inspector), and they have all expressed doubt at the suggestion of any sort of electrical or radio interference related to the issue here or any other power quality issue based on the information I have collected so far.  Their general concensus is that the issue is most likely related to a faulty computer part, or possibly an open ground, which they generally agree has probably been ruled out at this point.


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## Sasqui (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> Only have a few minutes to type this...
> 
> I have spoken with 3 of my instructors (20-50yr. Master electricians, one a former inspector), and they have all expressed doubt at the suggestion of any sort of electrical or radio interference related to the issue here or any other power quality issue based on the information I have collected so far.  Their general concensus is that the issue is most likely related to a faulty computer part, or possibly an open ground, which they generally agree has probably been ruled out at this point.



Sounds like you've confirmed the existence of gravitational waves...

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"


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## Azumay (Mar 8, 2016)

You do have an open ground circuit. Your not looking at the right spot.

Your power supply is chassis grounded, and in a case its ground through chassis of case to other components. Your mother board
is not earth grounded.  Go to your books and read what a earth ground does for electrical circuits. Safety, and gets rid of static charges,
low level voltages, and electrical noise signals.

Many run open pc systems with out any problems, including myself.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 8, 2016)

the best way to check is take the rig to a friends and try it there.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

More news.

I had to connect my DVD drive back up to my PSU to eject a disk still in it, and noticed reduced intensity flickering of the same type I've been complaining about from the start.  When I disconnect everything from the PSU, the flickering goes away.  Re-connect my hard drive or any other load, and the flicker immediately returns.  It's the power supply.

I thought the PSU could be safely ruled out as both the original unit and the tested factory replacement behaved exactly the same in every way.  Now I am led to believe that the product design itself might well be flawed.

My old laptop power brick has always caused a similar flicker that was much slower (about 60 pulses per minute), and the brick itself emanates an audible 'tick' every time this happens.  This phenomenon has always occurred in every house I have ever brought my laptop and charger to.  The ticking was most noticeable when the battery was not fully charged, and gradually faded away into the background as it neared 100%.

I am seeing a parallel here.

I'll bring the PSU, hard drive, and DVD drive to the tech school tomorrow.  I can get access to power the unit straight from the lab panel that is situated not even two feet away from the big 50kVA transformer that feeds it.  If it still makes an incandescent lamp flicker under what will essentially be perfect supply conditions, then we will have our definitive answer.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 8, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> I have spoken with 3 of my instructors (20-50yr. Master electricians, one a former inspector), and they have all expressed doubt at the suggestion of any sort of electrical or radio interference related to the issue here or any other power quality issue based on the information I have collected so far. Their general concensus is that the issue is most likely related to a faulty computer part, or possibly an open ground, which they generally agree has probably been ruled out at this point.



And THIS AMOUNT OF LIVING EXPERIENCE WILL NOT HELP YOU WITH A HOME VISIT
you rather seek help from the web rather than 3 of your instructors

don't take it personaly BUT....................


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## MachineMedic (Mar 8, 2016)

@dorsetknob:


			
				dorsetknob said:
			
		

> And THIS AMOUNT OF LIVING EXPERIENCE WILL NOT HELP YOU WITH A HOME VISIT
> you rather seek help from the web rather than 3 of your instructors
> 
> don't take it personaly BUT....................



Don't take it personally, but I'll much sooner take the advice of three master electricians over that of the half of the internet that keeps insisting that it is inconceivable for a brand new computer to be the cause of a problem that has only appeared when said computer is running.

:F


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## bencrutz (Mar 9, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> More news.
> 
> I had to connect my DVD drive back up to my PSU to eject a disk still in it, and noticed reduced intensity flickering of the same type I've been complaining about from the start.  When I disconnect everything from the PSU, the flickering goes away.  Re-connect my hard drive or any other load, and the flicker immediately returns.  It's the power supply.
> 
> ...



ah, so the PSU is the prime suspect, eh? let us know how the test turned out


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## MachineMedic (Mar 10, 2016)

Excellent news.

I've spent a lot of time doing a lot of testing today.  My results are as follows with a DVD drive and a WD 3.5"HDD as test loads:

At the tech school;


- Upon connecting the power supply to the panel receptacle immediately adjacent to the power transformer feeding it at the tech school, I could perceive no visible flickering in an incandescent light bulb in my field-wired testing rig plugged into the same receptacle.

- When I moved to a location with approximately 40-50 feet of wiring [incl. appx 30-40 feet of ~#4Cu., and appx 10 feet of #12Cu.] between it and the transformer, I began to notice some faint flickering again with my test rig.

- My home has approximately 180-210 feet of wiring from the electrical service room, and I have no trouble noticing the flickering much more readily.

This information supports my hypothesis that the power supply itself is the _root cause_ of the issue.

When I discussed my findings with the fourth instructor in the school, we formulated a hypothesis that the intensity of the flickering generated by the power supply may be heavily influenced by the total length of wire between the power supply and the source equipment due to factors such as wire impedance, inductance, and possibly capacitance.  He also brought up the important fact that switchmode power supplies and other nonlinear loads like computer PSUs have always historically been notorious for causing a range of electrical disturbances and nuisances in building distribution systems.


Later in the day, I brought the PSU to another house to continue my testing;



- Upon connecting the power supply to the circuit in a room equipped with CFL lights, no flickering was observed.

- Upon connecting the power supply to the circuit in a room equipped with incandescent lights, flickering was immediately obvious.

- The house is known to be at the very end of the transformer branch feeding a cluster of other houses, and at least 120 feet of wiring is present between the receptacle and the supplying transformer.

This was sufficient evidence to positively conclude that the power supply itself was definitely the cause of all of the flickering, which was being exponentially intensified as more wiring was introduced between the power supply and the electrical source.

I stopped by the local geek mall and picked up a Corsair HX850i to test the system with.

Lo- and behold:

NO MORE FLICKERING!




Photos of the _only_ test setup that was capable of manifesting absolutely no flickering with an incandescent light bulb on the same circuit:


Spoiler













Spoiler











@CBRworm:  Since you mentioned that you have experienced the same flickering symptoms as me, I would be curious to know what type of power system you have supplying your computer, and how much wiring you have between your computer and your floor's substation/distro room.  Perhaps a building engineer could let you photograph the nameplate on the transformer supplying your office, and possibly give you a loose estimate of the length of wiring between the two?  I ask only out of scientific curiosity so that we might continue to build a knowledge base on this entire subject.

As for correcting your own issue, you could possibly try buying the same Corsair HX850i power supply that resolved my issue from a local retail store that has an easy return policy, and see if swapping your current power supply for that does anything.  Otherwise, switching to CFL lighting might help mitigate the symptoms of the issue.

Let us know what you find out.


Hooray for progress!


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 10, 2016)

Well I guess something US special. 220V are more tolerant to lenght and ensures better and more efficient work of SMPS circuits.

Supplies cause noise yes, but such 10Hz?? I still think that the ground is the faulty sucker and the input filter just dumps voltage into it via Y cap and thus the flickering occurs. If really the input Z from mains is way too high, then you should see wires getting hot somewhere.

For fun you could try to put your power cable around with few turns in a ferrite core if you still can.

Your camera looks dead... like a HTC M7.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 10, 2016)

@Ferrum Master:



> like a HTC M7



LOL.

Yes, but the thing is a solid brick of aluminum.  It's the perfect work phone, and I still love it for that.



> I still think that the ground is the faulty sucker



That would mean that _three out of three different buildings 15-30 miles apart_ all have defective equipment grounding systems.  I tested two of the exact same make and model of power supply, one of which was factory tested and certified before shipment, and they both did the same thing.

I don't buy it.

It took connecting the thing _straight up_ to a friggin' 75,000VA delta-wye power transformer fed by a 1 megawatt 13,800V substation a few rooms over to suppress the interference that it was generating due to it's nonlinear load characteristics.  The thing was only drawing half of it's power at the peak of the sine wave, like some cheap full-wave bridge rectifier with a capacitor slapped onto the dc side:






The SuperNova 1000 P2 design as a whole is without a doubt wholly inferior in my eyes.

That, or they got a whole container in from China that was bad or something.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 10, 2016)

MachineMedic said:


> @Ferrum Master:
> 
> LOL.
> 
> Yes, but the thing is a solid brick of aluminum.  It's the perfect work phone, and I still love it for that.



I did repairs on them... the sensor didn't shut down, burns out... both M7 and M4 has the same camera. You have to do RMA for it. If the warranty is over If you are persistent enough you can arrange repair for free claiming it is a manufacturing known problem and their fault and bomb their HQ, they should exchange it for free, we have done it couple of times. You cannot change it yourself, you lack calibration software, it needs white balance calibration afterwards with the new camera.

The PSU just have different principles of filtering and levels of aggressiveness, the PFC boost part (dunno what type even) probably acts cuckoo because of something. Imagine all users using that PSU platform would have bitten off the head of the manufacturers... and the unit taken out of the market... so there is something, I haven't read nor heard such complaints a lot.


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## MachineMedic (Mar 10, 2016)

> PFC boost part (dunno what type even) probably acts cuckoo because of something.



My thoughts exactly.  I didn't get around to probing the current waveform going into the unit, but I have a feeling that it's got to be something related to that If I'm seeing voltage dips, and nothing in the system is getting substantially warmer.  Something about the unit could well be drawing significant kVARs.


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