# So where is this DX10 patch for XP



## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

I remember a few months ago people were saying that they would rip DX10 for XP. One user around here said he knew people already working on it. So whats the word on this?


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## Thermopylae_480 (Mar 1, 2007)

I expect it will appear after it has a use.


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## ktr (Mar 1, 2007)

DaMulta said:


> I remember a few months ago people were saying that they would rip DX10 for XP. One user around here said he knew people already working on it. So whats the word on this?



There is none...

it was false info...

the false info stated a DX9.0L will release for XP to give it a DX10...but the actual fact is that the DX9.0L is DX9.0 support for Vista.


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

ktr said:


> There is none...
> 
> it was false info...
> 
> the false info stated a DX9.0L will release for XP to give it a DX10...but the actual fact is that the DX9.0L is DX9.0 support for Vista.



Yes I no about the L it was said that people were going to rip it out of Vista for XP/The flaw is DX10 is not backwards compatible and Vista has 2 directxs in it.


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## ktr (Mar 1, 2007)

Why do you want to rip L...

L = a DX9.0 variant for vista. as we know, xp already has 9.0...

and DX10 is code in the kernel, therefore xp's kernel has to be recode...which will not happen.


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

I meant rip out DX10 for XP not DX9L.

Yea I never really see it coming either.


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

DaMulta said:


> I remember a few months ago people were saying that they would rip DX10 for XP. One user around here said he knew people already working on it. So whats the word on this?



Talk to Ketxxx... I am fairly sure he said that.



* Be great if it happens... he will know more, odds are!

APK


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

acctualy shader 4 supports the ONLY thing i really see dx10 bringing and that can be used under dx9, and wont bring any "quility enhancments" infact the one dx10 demo thats been shown people like the look of the dx9 bersion beter(ruby) 

all the hype about dx10 is for not, ask some game devs who are making games with dx9 and 10, the only thing 10 brings is more dirrect hardware access, and guess what, amd/ati already offer that for video hardware, companys can compile software to run fully on the gpu, and some game companys are :O


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

Microsoft Flight Simulator X rendered in DirectX 9






Microsoft Flight Simulator X rendered in DirectX 10





Age of Conan DirectX 9





Age of Conan DirectX 10 





Hmmmmm


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

thats with and without hdr m8 nothing there that cant be done in dx9 and that wont be dont in dx9, read the fing specs yourself, dx10 really is just ms trying to remove vendor spicific api calls and trying to bring hardware to a middle ground so its all comprable in abilities using the exect same api calls.

btw those shots are like hdr vs no hdr on farcry , looks impressive to you because your insisting its all thanks to dx10, but to me and anybody whos not a vista fanboi it clearly just looks like what it is, HDR!!!!!!

try farcry sometime m8, enable hdr, you will be quite impressed at the diffrance it can make
(talking about age of conan)

ms intentionaly pushes Microsoft Flight Simulator X as dx10 looking better because they want to sell people on dx10, fact is the exect same thing can be done in dx9, corse you are and have been a vista fanboi since i started here, so thats not gonna change, but a little advice, red up on fetures of dx10, the acctualy d3d10 fetures , compare them to dx9, you will find that the real rendering diffrances are not as impressive as you seem to think they are. 

shader model4 brings the idea of unified shaders to the table, good idea, when companys acctualy start following it then we will see how it works out, that is if they follow the idea and dont just stick with fixed number of shader types(vertex/pixel/exct) and just add more as they have with the first gen dx10 cards.

btw i have flight sim 2007, and saw the demo video of it on dx10, the water textures look better but guess what, the movment dosnt feel real, its not acctualy rendering the serfice as a bunch of peeks and valys, its just a texture over a low complexity mesh, as stated the exect same thing can be done on dx9.

oh find some shots of farcry on 64bit xp vs 32bit xp, note how it looks "so much kooler" then note that the only real diffrance is better textures, and that somebody moded it so you could use those textures on 32 bit windows.


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

but as time moves on, dx10 will come to a stage when dx9 couldn't reproduce or replicate it, and that will be a loooooong time


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

exectly, and if you check around, (say some forums full of game programers) you will see that they agree about the age of conan shots, they are saying that those shots are being done with shader2 mode and slitly lower detail texturs, and dx10 is just HDR+upped res textures(like farcry 64bit, infact that gets mentioned if you dig around some other forums)

its not like the move from dx8 to 9 where dx9 offered VERY programable shaders and dx8 didnt, halflife2 wouldnt look better in dx9 mode vs dx10 mode if it was patched up to dx10 mode, i really cant see valve making it look better just to make dx10 look better then 9, specly when they prooved that u can do shader based hdr and do it well :O


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## Jadawin (Mar 1, 2007)

I'd say read something from game developers before you say anything about "Vista fanboi"s, AshenSugar.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1989806,00.asp

"we also have a few ideas about how to use the geometry shader to do effects that are impossible on a DirectX 9 card"

" the person with the old card is going to see less, have a lower resolution and pretty bad lighting. On the older cards, we will try to draw as much as we can, but we might need to cut some corners, draw some low LOD versions of players and monsters, and possibly pull in the far clip plane. We are going to make every effort to make sure that there isn't a gameplay advantage to having superior hardware, but the game will look radically different between our very low min spec and the DirectX10 version"

"A DirectX10 graphics card is a big technological step from the previous generation of cards. Not only are they going to be a big jump in polygon counts and pixel fill rate, they give developers many, many more tricks that they can do. I think that most games are going to have a big visual difference between what a player will see on a DirectX 9 card and what they will see on a DirectX 10 card."

"xtremeTech: DX10 adds quite a few significant new features and changes to the API (and hardware requirements)—stuff that may potentially change the way games are made. Which new feature matters most to you?

Yerli: The geometry shader, together with texture arrays, can greatly simplify some render-to-texture operations. This can speed up things like shadow computations, reflections and refractions. "

"Edlund: Integrating DirectX 10 into our application will allow a much richer and more detailed world to be rendered at equivalent frame rates. Over the next releases, we will be continuing to increase the level of realism, detail in the world and world objects, dynamic lighting and subtleties, weather effects, and extending the capabilities of user interaction, exploration, and camera control in our world-spanning rendering environment."

"DirectX 10 will allow developers to take advantage of more of the DirectX 9 functionality, in addition to the new DirectX 10 features, to create more realistic scenes, not just showcased objects, then ever before possible. Supporting this is a more stable and coherent driver architecture that will end the days of driver crashes interrupting your game experience. By freeing the CPU up to do more game-related processing, you will see a quantum leap in the depth of AI, physics, character interaction and realism that becomes inherent in the next generation of games. "

"Godager: Because of the different architecture of the DX10 system, I think the biggest difference will be in the richness of the content. There will be more objects, more characters, more particles, longer view distance, more grass and foliage."

"any things are easier to work with on DX10. We can move several things from the CPU onto the GPU, like pre-skinned characters; geometry shaders will save bandwidth, texture arrays will save draw calls, and it's a generally more-efficient API. All this adds to a more effective rendering engine, giving the programmers more freedom to do other things they want. We are quite excited about being among the forerunners in DX10 game development and hope to be able to give players a richer, fuller experience when they invest in this hardware."

"DX10 is more than just a gradual extension of the DX platform."


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

but whatever any1 says, dx10 is still the new kid in da block


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## Jadawin (Mar 1, 2007)

Sure and I can't wait for the first real games to support it  I enjoy the speed of by 8800GTX in DX9 games and I need a beefy card to run my 2560x1600, but DX10 was one of the reasons to buy it, too.


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

Jadawin: with ati cards(x1k) they can already move anything they like off the cpu onto the gpu, ati/amd have a dev kit for programing dirrectly for the GPU itself not just using dx9/10/wtfe

and i know game devs, they like the ideas in dx10, but they all say the same thing, the only real thing this does is stop cards from being so diffrent that they cant do the same things, such as the g70/71 cant do hdr+aa at the same time, ms wanted to remove that, also wanted to allow more dirrect access to the gpu, same thing ati/amd already have.

maby you should try acctualy talking to some people who acctualy program for dx9/10 and opengl.

next you will say dx10 is better then ogl2.3 ROFL, yeah sure, have fun, injoy reading topics that are at best interviews with a few game dev managers and at worst, reviews by reviewers who really dont know what they are talking about.

oh and ati has supported geomotery on gpu for a very long time, and with dirrect gpu programing that can be fully moved to gpu as well.

and FYI, they say they can ad more detail at the same fraimrate because dx10 cards will be more burly/powerfull then dx9 cards, so they can load them up with more crap without having to do a good optimizing the code 

well as is aid injoy, im sure others will chime in, but the fact remains that no games will need or take real advantege of dx10 for at least 1-2 years, by then the next windows os is due out, probbly with dx11 being pushed as well knowing ms......rofl.....never ending cycle of ainal pain!!!!


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## Frick (Mar 1, 2007)

I hope Vista prices will go down so a mere mortal can actually afford it without selling his soul to the devil. I mean.. It's either food for 5 months or Vista Ultimate. And Home Premium is too weak and the others are useless for me.


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

Jadawin said:


> Sure and I can't wait for the first real games to support it  I enjoy the speed of by 8800GTX in DX9 games and I need a beefy card to run my 2560x1600, but DX10 was one of the reasons to buy it, too.



ah but where are you dx10 drivers?  where are your gold vista drivers?

oh i forgot, nvidia hasnt got vista drivers truely finnished yet, thats why i had to get the "whql" vista drivers from a 3rd party site when nv pulled them after amd announced that r600 was being delayed to q2.

eventuly i hope your 8800 gets decent vista(dx10)drivers because if it dosnt you will endup like i did with my fx5800ultra, a card that runs current games great but sucks total ass for new games (dx9 games ran like crap, hope that dosnt happen with the 8800 and dx10 games run like arse)

sall good, eventualy nvidia will eather fix their drivers or put out a new card and focus on that forgetting that the 8800 still dosnt got good drivers(ala 7950gx2 or quad sli.....rofl)


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

The main difference between DX9 and DX10 is less coding. You can add a lot more codes with out the performance hit and easy programing so it has been told. DX10 also interacts with the core of the O/s which speeds things up greatly. 

To add to this you will have shader 4.0 it will take a full year before people figure out how to push it too the max.

Do you honestly want to push everything to the GPU? While that would be nice in some ares it would limit you on what you could do with the power of the CPU and GPU working together.

Video is a LOT different it is streaming content, it doesn't have a wire frame that is controlled by the user.

HDR is nice and DX10 with shader 4 just adds to that with a lot more lighting affects that dx9 can do agin with LESS WORK.

Farcry to me is last gen even the 64bit update ver...The game just looks dated now a days.

With Vista you have a lot more tools available to the user. More wizards and a totally rewritten O/s from the ground up unlike older vers of windows. While you might be able to make a lot of things in XP like Vista its not the same. Some people will say the same thing about windows 98SE and how they don't need all that extra stuff. But we all know the downfalls of the areas that XP out does its older brother.  

I do expect DX10 to come to XP in emulation similar to 3dfx working under DX with a wrapper. This will not be perfect and will suffer by having to work a lot harder filling in the lines of code that will be needed to make it work.


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

DaMulta said:


> The main difference between DX9 and DX10 is less coding. You can add a lot more codes with out the performance hit and easy programing so it has been told. DX10 also interacts with the core of the O/s which speeds things up greatly.
> 
> To add to this you will have shader 4.0 it will take a full year before people figure out how to push it too the max.
> 
> ...



vista is NOT totaly rewriten from the ground up, this only shows how missinformed you are, vista is based on server 2003 codebase, please dont post FUD, infact i will call APK over to back me on this, since i know you dont respect or belive me.

vista is based on 2003, its tweaked and modifyed on how it works, but it is still BASED ON 2003, as such its not a totaly new os fromthe ground up.

ms wont do that, dispite the fact that it would be smarter then just "recompiling the same code over and over" because it would take to long and would force them to loose alot of backword compatability support(smart move)

what i would like to see is ms stop trying to be a monopoly, see them re-write windows from the ground up, dump 16bit and lower app support, dump lagacy code form the core os, do simlar to what apple did with osx, allow older windows support via a virtual machien, 9x and even some nt5 apps run thru a virtual machien thats only loaded when needed, so the rest of the os can be VERY efficent.

then get over the dx is better then ogl wars and just COMBINE them as they tryed to do years back, give us one VERY powerfull graphical API thats totaly crossplatform, this wouldnt hurt their market share much if at all when it comes to windows, because most windows users are unwilling to try anything other then windows and would have the advantege of removing the large ammount of $ they spend trying to keep d3d ahead/up with ogl(2.3 of ogl is FAR more powerfull NOW then dx10 is or will be, just a matter of companys usint it)


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

OK maybe not totally rewritten but most if not a big part of it was. That was a part of the delay on it comming to the market. If I remember right even the Xbox team was sent in to help with this. I do think security under vista was taken a little too far in my book. Which I believe only a server should be Locked down as mush as it is. People should be protected behind a router and a server protecting people from this and that. LOL I derailed my self.

While openGL might be a powerful tool which is easier to program under?


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

DaMulta said:


> OK maybe not totally rewritten but most if not a big part of it was. That was a part of the delay on it comming to the market. If I remember right even the Xbox team was sent in to help with this. I do think security under vista was taken a little too far in my book. Which I believe only a server should be Locked down as mush as it is. People should be protected behind a router and a server protecting people from this and that. LOL I derailed my self.
> 
> While openGL might be a powerful tool which is easier to program under?



acctualy since ogl2 its become very much like dx in ease of programing, unlike older verisons, the problem is that the money people dont know about ogl so they only want to support what they do know, dx.

and the biggist delays acctualy came form them dumping fetures to "improve security" this wasnt the security your talking about but DRM type security to protect media from priacy(never works, so why do they keep trying? )

and the security in vista is good for noobs and laypeople it keeps them from accently doing something that could really mess the system up or them from downloading something that could screw the systme up, its built on the unix/linux user security model, you can dissable it and run in "admin" or "root" mode if you know how, but for noobs and avrage users its a good idea, keeps them from screwing things up to baddly


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## Wile E (Mar 1, 2007)

Ashen, I noticed that you continually bash Vista and DX10. Why? You accused others of being fanboys, but you're doing exactly the opposite, by being a hater. (or at least that's how it comes across) That's no better. On top of that, you reek of an ATI fanboy. That comes across as hypocrisy, my friend. I'm not trying to bash you, but that's how your statements come across, at least to me, anyway.

Regardless of what's possible in DX9, DX10 still lays the groundwork to be more powerful. Sure DX9 can do many of the things that DX10 can do, but DX10 will do it more efficiently. So where's the problem? OpenGL2.3 is better? It's not better if the game doesn't support it. And despite how good it would be to merge OGL and DX, that's not what is going on right now. It doesn't matter what should be, it only matters what is.


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

because vista is a beta os thats being sold as finnished, it was rushed out, it had ALOT of fetures removed to "improve" drm, and dx10 isnt what most people think it is, its an attempt by ms to kill gaming outside windows, and dosnt really bring anything new to the table but requiering sm4.

i dont like nvidia because they went from being the best gfx company PERIOD in the gf4 days to just putting out crap(fx line) then putting out so/so drivers, then so/so drivers and hardware(7 seirse) and now 8800 and its pathetic driver support, eventulay it may get better, but at this rate i dont see it.
ms put out the 7950gx2, and quadsli then pretty much dumped it once they sold a bunch of units to smuchs who thought they would acctualy support it.(no dirver fixes for quadsli or 7950gx2 buggs) 

i hate software thats rushed out just to gain sales and give the company a new product to pimp, specly when its got as many buggs as vista has.  after sp1 maby vista will be better, but for now i cant reccomend it to anybody, my mother got a free disk from gateway to upgrade her new laptop, she cant use vista because her NEW 500$ billing software cant run on vista thanks to flaws ms "will fix soon with a patch" the company reccomended she not use vista till sp1.......

ogl is better by default, its just getting game devs to use/support it, some do, Id for one, tho they are buttbuddys with nvidia they have for years been a huge supporter of OpenGL, the makers of the riddick game support ogl, look at ogl1.5 in doom3 vs dx9 in other games, sure doom3 is dark and gloomy but the point is still made, the quility and fx avalable even under a very old version of opengl are stunning compared to what people could get from dx, and ogl2 has brought things closer to dx for programing, made it easyer.

i email dev companys and state my feeling that ogl support would be a good move as it would also allow far easyerports to mac and *nix, sure its a small marketcompared to windows, but its a market who will enlarge buy games if they can run native under their os.(% wise more linux users buy software/games that support their os then windows users(warez baby) think its because alot of linux users know how much effort gos into making good games/apps and that if they dont support the companys that support their os they wont get more games for their os)


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar I don;t know it you remember this....It was back in november



> ATI offers DirectX - OpenGL converter
> Graphics chip maker ATI Technologies has released HLSL2GLSL, an open source application designed to help programmers convert graphics code optimized for Windows’ DirectX 9 Application Programming Interface (API) to OpenGL, which is used on the Mac. Binaries for Mac OS X and Windows are available for download.
> 
> High Level Shader Language (HLSL) was developed by Microsoft to enable programmers using its DirectX API to develop complex graphical effects. Its OpenGL equivalent is GLSL, and this application enables developers to translate HLSL shaders into GLSL instead. The software generated either GLSL 1.10.58 desktop OpenGL shaders or ES SL v1.00 embedded OpenGL ES shaders.
> ...


http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/11/10/hlsl2glsl/index.php


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## Deleted member 24505 (Mar 1, 2007)

i have used vista now for 2 o 3 weeks and i dont see many bugs,my system has beenas stable as it was on xp.all the games i have tried work fine too.

what exactly are the bugs in vista?


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## Wile E (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> because vista is a beta os thats being sold as finnished, it was rushed out, it had ALOT of fetures removed to "improve" drm, and dx10 isnt what most people think it is, its an attempt by ms to kill gaming outside windows, and dosnt really bring anything new to the table but requiering sm4.
> 
> i dont like nvidia because they went from being the best gfx company PERIOD in the gf4 days to just putting out crap(fx line) then putting out so/so drivers, then so/so drivers and hardware(7 seirse) and now 8800 and its pathetic driver support, eventulay it may get better, but at this rate i dont see it.
> ms put out the 7950gx2, and quadsli then pretty much dumped it once they sold a bunch of units to smuchs who thought they would acctualy support it.(no dirver fixes for quadsli or 7950gx2 buggs)
> ...


On the nVidia front, I agree with you. All I was trying to say was calling somebody a fanboy, then turning around and acting like a fanboy, probably wasn't the best of ideas. lol

As far as Microsoft releasing buggy software as a final, name one company that doesn't. The amount of possible hardware and software configurations is just too staggering for any company to develop perfect software for the home pc market. I do however agree with your statement about DRM and missing features. I want my WinFS, dammit! lol

I'm also not arguing that ogl isn't better, or that it shouldn't be the default. It probably should be, but the fact remains that it isn't the standard for pc gaming. DX is, and as such, we should accept any improvements to it with open arms.

I'm just saying, you need to relax a little man. lol


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

all software has buggs, i dont mean to say it dosnt, but ms is REALLY bad about putting out os's early, xp then vista, xp couldnt work as a server because of its flaws, hence server 2003 the finnished version of xp,  vista will have server 2008 the finnished version of vista......see what im saying?

ms rushes things out to flood the market, 2k when it came out had less issues in my exp then vista, sure some ppl had problems but if you had ANY exp with windows nt and read up on 2k b4 you jumped on it you could easly get around the problems some/most programs had with it(like some that wouldnt install, just go to the windows cd and install the app compat tool, bam fixed) 

and corel dosnt rush software out in my exp, adobe, slysoft, vso(blindwrite suit), intervideo,nero(ok 7 had some issues with mp3 to cd burning, but that was a SIMPLE fix, just had to swap out a bugged mp3pro.dll with a good one, took seconds, and was a small oversite), webroot,frisk, Illustrate(dbpoweramp),Orion Studios,Smart Projects(isobuster),Opera.......
do i need to continue?

ms and other companys rush things out, then eather have to patch the crap out of them or patch them a few times and run away(game makers like VUG and ATARI run away)

ms could have for once put out an os in a gold state, well once since the nt4/2k day, not flawless, but with as few bugs as possable not rushed out, if they find problems, they fix them, if they find somethings not working out, replace it/remove it.

ms server products are GREAT, if they went back to what they did with nt3/4/5(2k) where they dont put the desktop/workstation os out till they got the server side ready as well then things would be better because the desktop would be as finnished and polished as the server im pretty sure APK when he stops in will agree here as he to uses 2003 server as his main os


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## Wile E (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> and corel dosnt rush software out in my exp, adobe, slysoft, vso(blindwrite suit), intervideo,nero(ok 7 had some issues with mp3 to cd burning, but that was a SIMPLE fix, just had to swap out a bugged mp3pro.dll with a good one, took seconds, and was a small oversite), webroot,frisk, Illustrate(dbpoweramp),Orion Studios,Smart Projects(isobuster),Opera.......
> do i need to continue?


I agree that those companies are in fact better at releasing software in a more stable state (with the exception of Nero 7, myself and all my friends and family that own it, have had many issues with it, so much so that I switched to Roxio), but they are still bugged.

I see where you're coming from now, tho. The home vs. server comparo kinda puts it perspective. But I will say that I don't think Vista is as bugged as you think it is. I've yet to experience a single crash, apt or os, in a month of use. Of course, my personal machine is kind of a limited sample set. lol


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

buggs dont just involve crashes, but software that should work not working, wga buggs, all that crap, read up on the news, WGA is bugged as hell on vista STILL..

and what problems did you have with nero7?

the only problems i have had on 50+ installs i setup where when i forgot to remove older nero first, and that is my own damn fault.
or when roxio was installed to, it dosnt play nice with other burning apps :/

and roxio......ewww........see i have had alot of problems with their software, i miss the old WinOnCd (3.x) b4 adaptech/roxio got ahold of it :/


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

off-topic: ok i get the hold of the 2k3 rocks! but then y don't ppl use it all-over ??
They don't know about it ? They DON'T use server os ? OR they want the flashy operating systems ??


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

because they for the most part dont know, and its expencive to buy it(because its a server)  you can get a trial of 2003 r2 free from ms if you want, just google for "windows 2003 trial"  or u can get it.....other ways......

2003 installs in "pro" mode effectivly, ask randomperson he just set it up on a laptop and is gonna set it up on his main system this weekend hes quite impressed at the speed over xp, from neerly 10min full useable desktop boot to 2seconds from the post screen to windows useable desktop even with software installed 

i game, its what i do other then post whore(i keep being called one so i might as well say i am one) and as a gamer i wouldnt use 2003 unless it kicked arse for gaming


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

some questions about 2k3 -
1. whats the price of it ?
2. also are drivers of  MOST hardware present for it ?
3. some sites for gaming performance in 2k3 please 
4. What is the next version of it ?


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

no official reviews of 2003 for gaming have been done, its a server os.

check sites where you can buy software for local prices for your area/county.

2003 uses the same drivers as 2k and xp, same core codebase just more refined and polished.

the next version of server will be server 2008 based on vista, like with 2003 im sure it will be FAR more polished then vista due to the time they take coding it to make it A ROCK SOLID PERFORMER.


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

name like windows longhorn server ? not bad imo.
BUT, on newegg there are so many versions, which one is better for gamers (un-officially), and for desktop use ?


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

acctualy they would all be the same for perf, you dont want small buisness it requieres you run it as a domain controler.

the others are all the same for home users.

my advice is if you can find a licence for web edition get that, its cheapist you can find and has the least extra stuff included 

my buddy got 12 licences for 166$ each on ebay (thanks to froogle search) thats for webedition, he setup all the systems he owns on it, laptops, old systems(233mmx systems and up) as well as his pairnts systems because he was tired of dealing with xp problems(sp2 was driving him mad with wireless support due to sp2 breaking drivers)

web is cheapist, standred is 2nd cheapist, ent is most pricy you can find for normal use(sbs is only for small buisnesses) 

but you have years to go for support its got till like 2012 or something b4 its EOL last i checked.

yes its called server longhorn for the next version but the server version avalable now is just vista with some server apps added, its not any more polished then vista yet, thats why its gonna take a year b4 it comes out


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

ok, i'll report back as soon as i get hold of this, i.e in another thread


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

*NOTES ON CHANGES IN NT-BASED OS, for everyone's reference*



AshenSugar said:


> vista is NOT totaly rewriten from the ground up, this only shows how missinformed you are, vista is based on server 2003 codebase, please dont post FUD, infact i will call APK over to back me on this, since i know you dont respect or belive me.



AshenSugar's right about this: VISTA is written off of the basecode of Windows Server 2003 - he is correct on that account. I wouldn't call VISTA a TOTAL rewrite anymore than I would call XP a TOTAL rewrite of 2000!

However, changes DO & have been made in all of them between versions. Some are fairly 'radical'... I would call the VISTA ones pretty radical in some capacities too though.

The most radical ones so for imo, w/ examples of WHY I say it (some, not all) have been the transitions between:


*NT 3.5x-> NT4* (move of GUI subsystem from usermode/Ring 3/RPL 3 to kernel mode/Ring 0/RPL 0, & also @ the desktop level, moving from Program Manager (like Windows 3.x desktop) to the "workplace like shell" (Os/2 like) desktops we use now, the intro. of DirectX (3.0, iirc) to a Windows NT-based OS! "the start of great things to come", lol!)

*NT 4 -> 2000* (network stack change of primary protocol carrier NetBIOS/LanManager -> Tcp/IP, the introduction of "Active Directory" (AD), in response to Novell Directory Services (NDS) - displacing the NT domain model for instance, DirectX 3.0 -> 5.0, iirc as well (as to what came w/ the OS, & it could iirc, be upgraded to DirectX 6, possibly more/later ones, but the "memory fades here" on this account)))
*NOTE:* Fairly BIG change in the desktop came here too, w/ the introduction of IE 4.0, & it's largely taking the place of the older EXPLORER.EXE shell... more web integration into the desktop (not good imo, but here we are today - mind you, this happened in NT4, NOT during the transition to 2000 from NT 4)


*2000 -> XP* (changes mainly for gaming, better compatibility, but not as big as those above imo)

*XP -> Windows Server 2003* (Fairly big, changes made based on corrections (many) from Windows Automatic Error Reporting - now THIS, has been called a total rewrite, but I have trouble w/ that, because for instance, the IP stack? Still based on BSD model it has had since, iirc, 2000 - some changes happened there too though, as far as networking is concerned)

*Windows Server 2003 -> VISTA* (many changes as you all know, mainly in the display subsystem moving to DirectX from older style GDI, USB into usermode/RPL3/Ring 3 iirc, & of course, & far more you are all aware of, & some you may not be, like Address Space Randomization)
Correct where I am off up there fellas, or add detail... thanks! Calling any of these a TOTAL rewrite? Well... I dunno about that - they have had some big changes, but much of the code just came from its predecessors really, improving steadily upon each one successively. 

*NOTE on EDIT for your reference again upon 'retrospection':* I even THINK iirc, NTFS changed models between NT -> 2000, going from NTFS4 to NTFS5, with BASIC/DYNAMIC disk support to, but not "110% sure", but fairly certain!

(One heck of a good foundation for them to start from for VISTA, using Windows Server 2003 as its foundation base code, imo @ least - Best Windows NT-based OS I have seen to date, & it only makes sense: All those years of sending errmsg/abend info. to Microsoft from Automatic Error Reporting paid off.)

Windows Server 2003, on the other hand, is "almost a rewrite" from what I understand, of the foundation code from 2000/XP (more the latter, because XP built off of 2000, whereas 2000 was a 'radical near rewrite' of NT (big changes, @ the IP stack level (moving from NetBIOS/Lanmanager as the primary network protocol, to Tcp/IP taking its place, for example, AD, & more))... 

Still, it was built up off the foundations of XP before it & probably had a HUGE chunk of it changed via Windows Error Reporting DB's of the MOST frequently seen errors & it is, far more secure outta the box... even its IE6 version, but you CAN duplicate this largely on 2000/XP etc. manually.

I don't personally call that a TOTAL REWRITE though, though it is a close one here, correcting for problems in XP (security ones, & others).

Have there been BIG changes, for the better in VISTA? Yes... one being the display API for the desktop shell, being DirectX... but many other COOL things you do NOT see, many for security like Address Space Randomization.

If you look in the VISTA tech support thread, even @ the IP stack level, and FOR THE BETTER... I put a zip'd document there for folks using VISTA that can show this step for step as to what is different, & what you CAN change in it to tune it (though it is largely 'auto-tuning', & moreso than XP/2000/Server 2003 were even, imo), but much of it has autotunes like sliding Send/Receive Windows (as did Server 2003 & XP iirc).

* Anyhow... there ya are.

APK

P.S.=> Stop arguing fellas... it's just computers. I know, sometimes, I am NOT one to talk... but think about it. You're ALL 'into' this stuff, & it's easy to be 'passionate' about it, because you like it! Ahhh, what's the use... lol! apk


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> no official reviews of 2003 for gaming have been done, its a server os.



There are those, & many of them (BUT, not for gaming solely, but imo? Makes a HELL of a gaming platform too)... 

Here are just SOME:

*Paul Thurrott: Windows Server 2003 Review (Part One)*
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winnetserver_rc1.asp

*ActiveWin Review of Windows Server 2003:*
http://www.activewin.com/reviews/software/operating-sys/win2003serv/index.shtml

*Microsoft - Windows Server 2003 review*
http://www.itreviews.co.uk/software/s201.htm

*Microsoft Windows 2003 Server Standard Edition; XP Without the Frills *
http://www10.epinions.com/content_137112424068

*Windows Server 2003 Uptake Strong: Netcraft*
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/net050603.cfm



* On GOOGLE? Just search this, verbatim:

"Windows Server 2003" and "review"

You'll see what I mean... & find I am ONLY SCRATCHING THE SURFACE on this note!

I'd STRONGLY wager, that if you searched:

"Windows Server 2003" and "gaming"

There on GOOGLE? You'd find SOME material on this account (gaming on Windows Server 2003 - heck, I do it, it's JUST AS DOABLE AS XP, maybe better!)

Windows Server 2003 generally was/is reviewed well, most times IF not all... heck, even the Unix nuts over @ slashdot don't "rib on" this model of Windows... which believe me, IS MEGA RARE.

APK

P.S.=> Some are while it was in BETA, other as it in final form, etc.: Enjoy, good reads!

(... &, if anything will 'arm you' to correct what I wrote above? It will be those & others... please, do so, I won't take it bad if you do!)

Why do I say that? Heck, via correction?? Hey - I'll ONLY GET STRONGER, if you do, & so will you all! Keep that in mind...

Think I haven't had my viewpoints/opinions/know-how changed, & here? Yes, I have... here is one such instance, came yesterday, from research AshenSugar challenged me to do:

*NOD32 vs. Norton/Symantec AntiVirus memory residency resource consumption:*

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=26400

... & I was wrong (on THIS part, memory size, but NOT others), & admit it there, about how much NOD32 eats in RAM, vs. NAV corp. edition client, *but w/ SOME reservations* (mainly, the most important part of antivirus progs imo - detection abilities) &, some INTERESTING findings (like running NAV & NOD32 side-by-side in memory concurrently, & HAVING NO PROBLEMS NOW FOR 24 hrs. straight so far, good news & in that thread, you'll see WHY I say that (detection abilities of both, one shows strengths over the other, & vice-a-versa, w/ diff. types of virus'))... apk


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## Mediocre (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> ... programing dirrectly ... diffrent...dirrect..maby you should try acctualy talking to some people who acctualy program... injoy.. geomotery on gpu ... dirrect gpu... fraimrate ...injoy...advantege .. probbly.....never ending cycle of ainal pain!!!!



AHHH how can anyone's spelling be sooo freakin bad. I would absolutely love to learn about this topic and take sides, but I just don't have the patients to get through all the spelling errors. Not to mention the condescending tone.


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

*ASHEN SUGAR HAS A VALID EXCUSE FOR HIS SPELLING imo*



Mediocre said:


> AHHH how can anyone's spelling be sooo freakin bad.



He has dyslexia man... for real, not ribbing... he has reasons. I hate nitpicking on others personally, who spell bad (& yes, he does, but HAS some reasons) online.

I can determine what he says, pretty easily, just by the words & how they are used in the context in which they're written... even w/ guys who don't have his affliction.

BUT, to each his own... you're right on that account on his spelling, but he has reasons imo @ least!

(Still admittedly: I am NOT an expert on dyslexia, but I think my Dad may have it... can't spell worth a lick (came from another nation, maybe 10th grade education @ BEST, but was great @ his field: Tool & Die Engineering, 44 yrs. worth, schooled in Germany for it, great engineers there imo @ least))!

HOWEVER, my Pop's read MORE  BOOKS THAN ANYBODY I KNOW too, oddly enough & I would never think to take him on in say, history, for 1 grounds/example... he'd outright plain-jane "SMOKE me" there.

Hey - I've had more than a few folks online take shots @ how I write... it may not be 'dead-solid 110% perfect diction/grammar', or even spelling (was a spelling bee champ in my time @ fairly high levels on national scale), & yes, it ticked me off. I have no excuses for it though. Especially considering I do like 3-4 edits of many of my posts. I have to, lol, TOO BIG!

Ashen imo? Does...



Mediocre said:


> I would absolutely love to learn about this topic and take sides, but I just don't have the patients to get through all the spelling errors.



No sides to take, just learning... I make mistakes too guys. Correct me where I'm wrong, & a few folks here have over time... what resulted?

I GOT STRONGER FOR IT, everytime.

*(I like the fact you admit where you are not strong: A man's GOTTA know his limitations. Know thyself...) *



* That's all I ever want... I have NO choice really, if I want to keep making money in this field... 

Learn more, everyday, GET STRONGER... even if only on trivia stuff. Live & learn & EARN imo!



Mediocre said:


> Not to mention the condescending tone.



Now, on the tone you guys take w/ one another? I don't particularly like it either, but I imagine, someone STARTED UP, w/ someone... & are just defending themselves. I would too, & keep it EXACTLY on the level they took w/ me (even if it goes into the mud).

Well, whoever 'fired the first shot' is the guilty one, & I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE A LOOK for that... they know who they are, & so do you... but, I don't. Keeping outta the jam...

I figure, whoever took the first shot though, deserves equal treatment in kind. When in Rome... etc. & trust me: I am NOT above that myself. It's only right to do unto others, even in BAD situations, to defend one's self.

APK

P.S.=> Wouldn't matter that much to me anyhow... what matters is learning for me personally... 

E.G.-> & I have here on this forums, especially about MODERN hardware & yes, even softwares... heck, I'll list a few, to "make myself look bad", lol, even!

Folks here HAVE 'changed my mind' a few times on what I thought was the 'best/better' softwares for particular purposes, quite a FEW times!

(e.g.-> a list)


NOD32 & NAV, noted above in a URL in my last post's P.S., but, again, w/ some exceptions (important ones, & a 'discovery' lol)

PerfectDisk vs. Diskeeper (Raxco PD is BETTER than Diskeeper my former fav. for single user environs & has TONS of documentation of this, Diskeeper had NO reply in retaliation/rebuttal on this account on their site or elsewhere I could find, but they are concentrating on networked environs more & background defragging (to defend them on THIS account)

How the OpenGL ICD works on VISTA (and I made discoveries on how it works in 2000/XP/Server2003 too, software emulation in the oem OpenGL.DLL & oddly imo, calls to Direct X (DDRAW.DLL dependencies))

VLC vs. MediaPlayer & others too

ktr corrected me on the bus type used on Gigabyte IRAM models, SATA, not SATA2 iirc, as well (I don't commit every hardware detail anymore & can stand correction on it @ times, not my job focus anymore, but also, it's NOT right to misinform, even unintentionally... I thanked him for it in fact!
Every situation has "outs" & conditions I have found... & it's VERY EASY to 'pick apart' someone on that basis... especially in this complex & varied + WIDE field... nobody, knows it all... nobody! TOO MUCH TO KNOW, lol... 

Preaching, lol... my bad! 

(BUT, this forums is TOO GOOD to have a fight of name-tossing nature, etc. imo)... apk


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## BXtreme (Mar 1, 2007)

on the epinions link, in the cons it says 'lack of hardware driver support', i.e sometimes a driver crysis may occur


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

Alec§taar said:


> AshenSugar's right about this: VISTA is written off of the basecode of Windows Server 2003 - he is correct on that account. I wouldn't call VISTA a TOTAL rewrite anymore than I would call XP a TOTAL rewrite of 2000!
> 
> However, changes DO & have been made in all of them between versions. Some are fairly 'radical'... I would call the VISTA ones pretty radical in some capacities too though.
> 
> ...



yeah the gui was a major change,BUT you could run explorer on 3.51, ms put out a pack for it mainly for testing but it became VERY popular(hence was used in 95 and nt4) 

i have it, as well as some older versions of windows nt3 



> *NT 4 -> 2000* (network stack change of primary protocol carrier NetBIOS/LanManager -> Tcp/IP, the introduction of "Active Directory" (AD), in response to Novell Directory Services (NDS) - displacing the NT domain model for instance, DirectX 3.0 -> 5.0, iirc as well (as to what came w/ the OS, & it could iirc, be upgraded to DirectX 6, possibly more/later ones, but the "memory fades here" on this account)))



nt4 came with dx3, never from my exp got a dx5 update BUT if you dug around enought on ms's site they had dx6.1 for nt4   and with a decent card(nvidia mostly) you could play games quite well on nt4 dispite it "not being supported"



> *NOTE:* Fairly BIG change in the desktop came here too, w/ the introduction of IE 4.0, & it's largely taking the place of the older EXPLORER.EXE shell... more web integration into the desktop (not good imo, but here we are today - mind you, this happened in NT4, NOT during the transition to 2000 from NT 4)


i agree about the active desktop crap(desktop webpage crap sucks) 

but its still with us to a point, tho atleast its not default like it was when you installed ie4(hated when acctive desktop crashed....)



> *2000 -> XP* (changes mainly for gaming, better compatibility, but not as big as those above imo)


most of the changes in xp where actualy to make it more "noob friendly" like system restore, the new "fisher price: my first pc" themes (im acctualy the one who started that "fisher price"  stuff about xp thats even refranced in wikipedia lol)  

ms did this for marketing reasions, b4 you ask why i say this and how i know this, i know because i got a day long "tour" of ms when i was up in belview visiting relitives(fathers sister)  and they admited the main reasion xp was pushed out was because they couldnt push 2k as a home os after they pushed it as a PURE BUISNESS platform from day one, and ME as "the next great desktop windows", thus xp was born, born early, and like any premi it had problems, its better now, but its still got its "querks".
ms pushed more app compat support into the default gui, this was done to help home users keep using outdated win16 apps(16bit apps from 9x days) and dos apps, stuff that honestly should have been replaced or run on a box where it had its native os.

xp was the first windows desktop/workstation os to be put out without its server counterpart being ready, it took ms almost 2 years extra to finnish server 2003 after the project was fully split from the xp codebase(during the beta stages)  and thanks to that extra time ms removed ALOT of useless lagacy code, also removed a HUGE number of buggs and flaws, personaly i think ms should have put out an XP SE, based on server 2003 core, my model would have been that current xp owners could upgrade their current xp disks to "xp se" free with a slipstream, it would have cleared up a HUGE number of the problems xp still has.

but i digress, xp wasnt as big a boost as some people think(not meaning you APK, meaning others)  under sp4 you can game using 2k just as well as with xp given your talking about native win32 games(you know stuff not made to run on dos or win95 dos mode)





> *XP -> Windows Server 2003* (Fairly big, changes made based on corrections (many) from Windows Automatic Error Reporting - now THIS, has been called a total rewrite, but I have trouble w/ that, because for instance, the IP stack? Still based on BSD model it has had since, iirc, 2000 - some changes happened there too though, as far as networking is concerned)



as i understand it very little of the code wasnt changed in the core os, this is because xp was TOTALY UNSUITABLE as a true server(as in domain server or webserver not a file server, hell you can run win3.11 for workgroups as a file server  )

ms had already started taring the core apart when xp was put into beta to try and find and fix the problems, in the end they had to do some pretty radical things, the effect root being that we got an os that was as fast and light on resorces and as stable as windows 2000 pro, with all the app compat and security improvments that xp had, an os the really should have been  marketed as a server AND desktop/workstation , it was marketed as a workstation to a point with windows xp x64 but due to ms not really pushing the os and pushing for better driver support x64 was kinda born a laim duck.

ms did a good thing with 2003, had then taken it a step ferther and removed even more lagacy code i would have been even happyer, if i honestly need to run dos or windows9x apps i can alwase dual boot or setup a system that was acctualy made to run those apps, not like it would cost much, 25bucks or less for a good 9x machien, could probbly get a dox box free by looking in free piles at gradge sales or by checking the paper.



> *Windows Server 2003 -> VISTA* (many changes as you all know, mainly in the display subsystem moving to DirectX from older style GDI, USB into usermode/RPL3/Ring 3 iirc, & of course, & far more you are all aware of, & some you may not be, like Address Space Randomization)



some of the changes are radical, but the kernal and much of the core are not drasticly changed, they did change ALOT of how the os interacts with itself(no more kernel mode drivers for one) 

i disslike vista currently because support SUCKS, drivers,apps,security, updates even all suck, my buddy payed 575 to ms for 2 copys of ultimet, he gets a disscount due to his work...he got 2003 ent full retail for 30bucks....)   
he instaled one of the WGA updated with auto update it dissabld areo and forced him to call them to get it reenabled, ended up having to pay 15bucks for them to send him a new key because the support people couldnt get vista to unlock like it should have........

i jumped on xp early because i was GIVEN xp pro free by a friend who got a pc that came with it but he ran solaris+winnt4+2k for his work(programer and debuger) and he didnt want xp because they didnt plan to support it for at least a year, after 9 months i went back to 2k because xp updates kept breaking things like video drivers forcing LONG cycles of me hammering windows to get the drivers to inilize on boot again.

vista is to young and was rushed out, ms cut alot of fetures, replacing them with VERY heavy DRM this angers me, ms should have spent that time insuring that vista was READY FOR PRIME not insuring that i cant watch my hd dvd/bdd on my 20.1in lcd with my x1900xtx because its nod hdcp complyant.
or that i cant listen to my super audio disks at full quility/at all because my soundcards not approved to pass hd content to my speekers.
(had this bite me already in testing, a buddy loaned me 4 sacd's the sounds amazing under 2003, under vista 3 disks sounded like 48k mp3(ok maby 64k, eather way it was HORRID) the 4th was some weird "dont pirat music" "music" that was ghay as hell.

this kinda crap is just plain stupid.



> Correct where I am off up there fellas, or add detail... thanks! Calling any of these a TOTAL rewrite? Well... I dunno about that - they have had some big changes, but much of the code just came from its predecessors really, improving steadily upon each one successively.
> 
> (One heck of a good foundation for them to start from for VISTA, using Windows Server 2003 as its foundation base code, imo @ least - Best Windows NT-based OS I have seen to date, & it only makes sense: All those years of sending errmsg/abend info. to Microsoft from Automatic Error Reporting paid off.)
> 
> ...



yeah 2003 is a hell of a good os, i got it about 2 weeks b4 RTM hit shelves, been using it ever sence!!!!! never even considered going back to xp.......


and DeMutla and i get into it at times, he posts stuff thats eather FUD or severly scewed then denies it when you show him to be wrong (such as ms admiting gaming under vista with current games would acctualy be slower then under xp/2k/2k3)

but sall good, i like him mostly, he seems like an allright sort, if a little stuborn(and im not like that at all) 

and thx for the reviews, i never had been able to find any decent gaming reviews of 2003 as a workstation, but its been a long time since i tryed to find any as well 

i have not seen a singel bad review of 2003 EVER and i looked and others linux freaks i know have looked, infact i have converted some total linux nuts into 2003 lovers for gaming and other uses, things linux dosnt do well or at all like active directory type functions.

2003 is a ROCK SOLID OS, and im hoping server 2008 ends up being a rocksolid os as well because that is where i may be upgrading when the time comes.


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

BXtreme said:


> on the epinions link, in the cons it says 'lack of hardware driver support', i.e sometimes a driver crysis may occur



remmber some of these reviewers didnt realise that 2003 takes 2k and xp drivers BY DESIGN, so if it works with xp/2k then it works with 2003, period, you may have to "trick" the installer as i do with my mothers office jet 5510 all in one unit by setting the setup.exe to "windows xp" compat mode but thats rare.

i have TONS of hardware, stuff thats just outright RARE or WEIRD like PD drive(phase dule, sort of like a cd burner+magnetic storge, also reads cd's) 2003 uses it fine even supports the windows 2k software in native mode.
i have a magneto optical drive from philips that uses 8.7gb cartreges, works in 2003 no problem using the 2k drivers OR the later made 2003 drivers, tho they arent any better, just made to allow you to install from/to magneto optical media from cd install.(you had to request the drivers from philips)

no worries m8, i havent found a singel peice of hardware that i couldnt fine drivers for that was nt compatable, if it had nt drivers(nt4/2k/xp) it works in 2003


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> yeah the gui was a major change,BUT you could run explorer on 3.51, ms put out a pack for it mainly for testing but it became VERY popular(hence was used in 95 and nt4)
> 
> i have it, as well as some older versions of windows nt3



As do I... it was ONLY beta (@ BEST) & yes, buggy. In fact, I have an NT 3.51 box that runs here, to this very day (486 Dx/4 133mhz CPU, Vesa Local Bus Diamond Stealth 64 windows accelerated video, 32mb 30-pin FastPage RAM (60ns speed), & a TekRam 16mb of memory onboard caching VLB controller (70ns speed RAM in same chips type as system, 256k SRAM on mobo cache) & it runs it WELL! Most current possible drivers applied (well, from YEARS ago, another era imo in this field).

However, I stay w/ the Program Manager shell vs. that prototype. Why? Stability.



AshenSugar said:


> nt4 came with dx3, never from my exp got a dx5 update BUT if you dug around enought on ms's site they had dx6.1 for nt4   and with a decent card(nvidia mostly) you could play games quite well on nt4 dispite it "not being supported"



Yup, I know - I applied it, the Direct X "6" patch... barely functional as far as accessing ALL of the DirectX 6 enhancements... I did it, specifically for Quake II play in fact.



AshenSugar said:


> i agree about the active desktop crap(desktop webpage crap sucks)



Well, it can be 'dangerous', imo @ least, because the web itself can be 'dangerous'...



AshenSugar said:


> but its still with us to a point, tho atleast its not default like it was when you installed ie4(hated when acctive desktop crashed....)



Right, I agree there.



AshenSugar said:


> most of the changes in xp where actualy to make it more "noob friendly" like system restore, the new "fisher price: my first pc" themes (im acctualy the one who started that "fisher price"  stuff about xp thats even refranced in wikipedia lol)



Probably needed doing... I didn't think so, but there were folks that felt that. Personally? I ran XP (when I ran it that is) w/ the "CLASSIC" type desktop... like Win2k.

I am not 'nuts' about the new theme... reminds me of lifesavers candy rolls, lol (which, I like, mind you, to eat... not for a color scheme - but, this is PURELY personal: To each his own here, beauty in the eye of the beholder & all that).



AshenSugar said:


> ms did this for marketing reasions, b4 you ask why i say this and how i know this, i know because i got a day long "tour" of ms when i was up in belview visiting relitives(fathers sister)  and they admited the main reasion xp was pushed out was because they couldnt push 2k as a home os after they pushed it as a PURE BUISNESS platform from day one



Well, I can tell you, point-blank: 2000 was not as good of a gaming platform as XP is... how do I know? I'll give you a SPECIFIC example (deals mostly in SOUND compatibility w/ games, even 9x ones, let alone older DOS ones (there is DosBox 6.5 to help w/ this on 2000 though)):

Williams Arcade Games - I loved them as a boy (arcades of the 1980's child here, Williams Defender/StarGate two of my favs... Robotron 2084 yet another). This emulator was designed for Windows 9x, ran on it perfectly.

On 2000? Oh, it ran... no sound though, not w/ out help. On XP however?? Pefectamundo, no 3rd party tools required.

Today though? Imo, quite possibly?? MAME32 would probably do a better job on 2000, but I don't have 2k up here & running to test that theory either.



AshenSugar said:


> and ME as "the next great desktop windows", thus xp was born, born early, and like any premi it had problems, its better now, but its still got its "querks".



Sure, that's to be EXPECTED, & especially @ an OS' 'birth stage' & childhood (for lack of a better analogy, lol)... just like we're seeing (imo, to a lesser degree though) w/ VISTA now.

We've ALL seen this before, & worse... NT 3.5x -> NT 4 & NT 4 -> 2000 imo, being the worst... not only driver stuff, but also apps for particular purposes coming out (defraggers, databases of graphical nature, & FAR more).

We lived, lol! Here we are today, running stuff 10x as capable & stable.



AshenSugar said:


> ms pushed more app compat support into the default gui, this was done to help home users keep using outdated win16 apps(16bit apps from 9x days) and dos apps, stuff that honestly should have been replaced or run on a box where it had its native os.



Yes, exactly, I agree... especially, per my SPECIFIC example above.



AshenSugar said:


> xp was the first windows desktop/workstation os to be put out without its server counterpart being ready, it took ms almost 2 years extra to finnish server 2003 after the project was fully split from the xp codebase(during the beta stages)  and thanks to that extra time ms removed ALOT of useless lagacy code, also removed a HUGE number of buggs and flaws, personaly i think ms should have put out an XP SE, based on server 2003 core, my model would have been that current xp owners could upgrade their current xp disks to "xp se" free with a slipstream, it would have cleared up a HUGE number of the problems xp still has.



Well, per that? I think VISTA is exactly that... XP, w/ Win2k3 server 'core', & many security + desktop GUI enhancements. More to it than that, even @ the core (Address Space Randomization being one specifically), but it is largely, that... A BETTER XP!



AshenSugar said:


> but i digress, xp wasnt as big a boost as some people think(not meaning you APK, meaning others)  under sp4 you can game using 2k just as well as with xp given your talking about native win32 games(you know stuff not made to run on dos or win95 dos mode)



Which is why my list above, on the changes between the OS, in Windows NT-based OS' ancestry + architectural changes, is SO short, on the 2000-> XP revision/progression.



AshenSugar said:


> as i understand it very little of the code wasnt changed in the core os, this is because xp was TOTALY UNSUITABLE as a true server(as in domain server or webserver not a file server, hell you can run win3.11 for workgroups as a file server  )



XP can't be a 'true server' not only for stability reasons, but it's like any workstation/pro client node OS: It has limits on # of connections to it afaik... it's really the same OS in 2000 Pro vs. Server, but is intentionlly crippled by MS (to make monies). I am sure you know this.

So, what you say, for a number of reasons? VERY true enough, but I have seen 2000 rigs do a decent job as is, as servers... 

Still, 2k can't hold a candle (imo @ least) to Windows Server 2003... 

The latter's been rated, afaik/iirc, near 99.99% uptime (mainframe/midrange class enterprise level stability)... 

I.E.-> 4 of the fabled, "5 9's" if not moreso by now... 

(& they ALL had C2 level security certifications as is in the Windows NT-based OS family, per the "Orange Book" definitions thereof).



AshenSugar said:


> ms had already started taring the core apart when xp was put into beta to try and find and fix the problems



You can BET that is an ongoing thing, in ALL of them... constantly.



AshenSugar said:


> ms did a good thing with 2003, had then taken it a step ferther and removed even more lagacy code i would have been even happyer,



OK: This part, even above when you mention it? Talk to me - give me specifics... do you mean, like, backward compatibilty related code??

If so, well... I have YET to see any problems running apps I ran for YEARS on 2000/XP, but instead on Server 2003... sure, some had revisions (the apps) but many not.

Thanks for specifics here, IF you have them WITH examples. NOT in games, but rather in say, shareware/freeware, or utilities mostly... 

Even office type apps IF necessary, but largely, these are built off libs/DLLs calling, so only parts get patched (per the Ms vision of a document-centric world, where the app calling a document doesn't matter, many can open each others documents, no sweat... surf the web in IE & Outlook (full) even? POSSIBLE, in other words as 1 example only.... Word later doing HTML for the web? Possible, etc. because of this shared lib model!)



AshenSugar said:


> if i honestly need to run dos or windows9x apps i can alwase dual boot or setup a system that was acctualy made to run those apps, not like it would cost much, 25bucks or less for a good 9x machien, could probbly get a dox box free by looking in free piles at gradge sales or by checking the paper.



OR, use 3rd party tools like DosBox 6.5 for sound, etc. (there are fixes/patches out there like that one, via an addon).



AshenSugar said:


> some of the changes are radical, but the kernal and much of the core are not drasticly changed



Well, not true in some cases... NT 3.5x -> NT 4 & NT4 -> 2000 MOSTLY imo... 2000 -> XP? Not huge, smallish ones imo as well!



AshenSugar said:


> they did change ALOT of how the os interacts with itself(no more kernel mode drivers for one)



?

Drivers (nearly all, if NOT all) RUN totally IN kernel space (ring 0) which is WHY they have to be written SO carefully... they can, like the OS, touch ANY memory thru the system... ANY, including OS space itself. 

=========================================================
*APK DISCLAIMER/ADMISSION OF GUILT, lol, lack of experience on this type of coding:*
=========================================================
Plug-N-Play drivers though? May be an exception & run partially in Ring 0/RPL 0/kernel mode, vs. Ring 3/RPL 3/usermode... but, not sure, admittedly.
=========================================================

I code & have for nearly 25 yrs. & roughly 15 on Win32/.NET most recently, but not in driver mode typically using the DDK. SO, no 'expert' here. So, that said, correct me where you need to, but here is my understanding of it above, & below next:

Ms helped a LOT w/ WHQL testing. WDM (Windows Driver Model), & Ms DDK (device driver kit) templates for basic function too, + STABILITY... tons more if you would like me to get into it, especially from NT 4 -> 2000. BUT, not much for 2000 -> XP, not really.

After all - I asked you for examples above, so in kind, I can provide many enhancements from NT 4 -> 2000 or the other 'radical one' NT 3.5x -> NT 4.0... 

BUT, not sure here.... are you still talking 2000 -> XP? If so, not many imo either.

BUT the drivers part above? I think you're a BIT 'off' on... perhaps you mistated it? OR, did I misunderstand you, while we are talking about, lol, 4 to 5 diff. models of this OS (confusing)...



AshenSugar said:


> i disslike vista currently because support SUCKS, drivers,apps



Not MS' fault on this part... Driver coders from 3rd party OEM's need to catch up on 7,000 new API calls, & a quite possibly WAY diff. DDK (I have not looked @ this one, but i Have in 2000/XP)... & a new DirectX 10 setup too for vidcards etc.!



AshenSugar said:


> ,security, updates even all suck, my buddy payed 575 to ms for 2 copys of ultimet, he gets a disscount due to his work...he got 2003 ent full retail for 30bucks....)



Security I am going to differ w/ you on... it is WAY better on many levels that you do NOT see (ASR is the biggest imo, & needed - the types of 'bushwhacks' that took advantage of this 'shook the planet' in some virus' that used it)...

UAC? More of a nuisance, & circumventable as well... 

The Installer having SYSTEM priveleges (per Joanna Rutkowska's findings, MS technical fellow, while confronting Dr. Mark Russinovich on it & largely getting the better of him imo too) is another 'potential hole'.

Still, it's better... even @ the apps level, which imo is, the MOST insecure one... IE7 helps a good deal here for example. Overall, VISTA is far more secure, than even Windows Server 2003, even w/ its secured IE6, its default is a WAY secured mode.



AshenSugar said:


> he instaled one of the WGA updated with auto update it dissabld areo and forced him to call them to get it reenabled, ended up having to pay 15bucks for them to send him a new key because the support people couldnt get vista to unlock like it should have........



Ms has started to 'bend' on this... they are NOT inflexible! See here:

*Microsoft to change frequency of WGA checks:*

http://www.infomaticsonline.co.uk/computeractive/news/2158172/microsoft-change-frequency-wga

& more, in the last couple days in fact!

 & I will brb, after I finish this discussion w/ you, on this note...

Still, this IS to be expected: Just "growing pains"... & we've ALL seen it before, & imo?? Far worse... especially NT 3.5x -> NT 4, NT 4 -> 2000!



AshenSugar said:


> vista is to young and was rushed out, ms cut alot of fetures, replacing them with VERY heavy DRM this angers me, ms should have spent that time insuring that vista was READY FOR PRIME not insuring that i cant watch my hd dvd/bdd on my 20.1in lcd with my x1900xtx because its nod hdcp complyant.



I am not 'nuts' about DRM & this Hdcp stuff, but I am not as 'into that' as you are... personally?

I tried VISTA for about 3 hrs. the other day @ best buy & liked it... quite a lot!

Still, man - it's NEW, & MS will change things if need be on it.



AshenSugar said:


> or that i cant listen to my super audio disks at full quility/at all because my soundcards not approved to pass hd content to my speekers.



BUT, you can listen to it, albeit not as @ a high of quality... I am not enough of an 'audiophile' imo, to be truly upset by this... but, if YOU are? Well, having to buy new equipment is a beyotch...



AshenSugar said:


> yeah 2003 is a hell of a good os, i got it about 2 weeks b4 RTM hit shelves, been using it ever sence!!!!! never even considered going back to xp.......



Agreed, 110%... what Windows NT/2000/XP should always have been... but, speaking as a coder? 

Windows NT-based OS, ARE truly, the LARGEST PROGRAMMING ARTIFACTS IN EXISTENCE afaik... 

& it is mega hard, even on smaller programs, to write something that runs everywhere, w/ everything, perfectly... especially for programs of 'size' (purely relative term)... takes time to grow & change/patch until it is.

Personally? This is why shareware/freeware is NOT that easy, vs. say, MIS/IS/IT programming in a CLOSED STD. HARDWARE + SOFTWARE ENVIRONS (which avoid tons of diff. hardware & software mixes causing instability or incompatiblity)... 

DB coding, which I do & have been doing for coming up on 11-13 yrs. as a pro & years before it on my own or in academia since my days on UNIX, VMS, OS/400 & more? Saves you from that hassle... 

You don't have that level of protection on shareware/freeware, OR @ a larger level, consumer grade "OS' for the masses"... 

Mainly because the masses IS potentially everyone on this planet, & their personal mixture of hardware + software creates a MASSIVE amount of possible permutations thereof for both hardware/software...

(LOL, might as well do 6 billion (planet human population afaik) factorial, as to the possible number of possible mixes... the amount of folks on the planet X 1 less, X 1 less, etc. et al).



AshenSugar said:


> and DeMutla and i get into it at times, he posts stuff thats eather FUD or severly scewed then denies it when you show him to be wrong (such as ms admiting gaming under vista with current games would acctualy be slower then under xp/2k/2k3)



Well, like I did above? I list a number of places I had MY thinking 'changed' by you, & iirc, even DaMulta... it happens. Just think of it like.... well, educaton & sharing ideas.

You & I bump heads, but we NEVER get into arguments... if you can do that w/ me? You can, w/ he, & same to DaMulta w/ you too imo!



AshenSugar said:


> but sall good, i like him mostly, he seems like an allright sort, if a little stuborn(and im not like that at all)



There you go... but, I think you are both OK.



AshenSugar said:


> and thx for the reviews, i never had been able to find any decent gaming reviews of 2003 as a workstation, but its been a long time since i tryed to find any as well



Those are MOSTLY just reviews of 2k3... to get ones for it on gaming, heck: Issue the literal quoted boolean string I put up above for gaming... you'll find them. Not a lot, specifically for gaming on Win2k3, but they are there most likely.



AshenSugar said:


> i have not seen a singel bad review of 2003 EVER and i looked and others linux freaks i know have looked, infact i have converted some total linux nuts into 2003 lovers for gaming and other uses, things linux dosnt do well or at all like active directory type functions.



Neither have I... & astoundingly, the LINUX/UNIX pack @ SLASHDOT (worst Unix/Linux zealots I have ever seen online & I note that above)? They won't bust on it usually, or not hard. How could they?

It's damn good. Great foundation for VISTA too.



AshenSugar said:


> 2003 is a ROCK SOLID OS, and im hoping server 2008 ends up being a rocksolid os as well because that is where i may be upgrading when the time comes.



It probably will, & will get the benefit of what MS did w/ XP, vs. Server 2003 you are 'upset' over... they will fix the 'holes' in VISTA, & apply that to Server 2008. Just as they did for XP -> Server 2003.

They KNOW what they're doing on THAT account & it does seem logical to me!



Hey, it worked for XP -> Server 2003!

(On the beta test list for it here... can't wait to try it!)

APK

P.S.=> Yet another "hellishly long" discussion between us, lol... DONE EDITING NOW, quote away & nitpick where needed, lol... apk


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## DaMulta (Mar 1, 2007)

Not all games are slower in Vista/ a lot of games actually work faster than in XP.


LOL I love you guys


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

DaMulta said:


> Not all games are slower in Vista/ a lot of games actually work faster than in XP.



True - I have seen reports of that, recently, iirc, from ExtremeTech!

APK


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## ktr (Mar 1, 2007)

This is a good FAQ on vista i have found: http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=vista&page=1


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> all software has buggs, i dont mean to say it dosnt, but ms is REALLY bad about putting out os's early, xp then vista, xp couldnt work as a server because of its flaws, hence server 2003 the finnished version of xp,  vista will have server 2008 the finnished version of vista......see what im saying?



There's reasons for it... I told you some, from while I worked for a division of NCR in fact, in a reply I did to you last evening... coming from a commercial software development background in fact... MONEY, it talks!

They say, "talk's cheap"? NOT WHEN MONEY DOES THE TALKING!

Marketers & legal folks make delivery time agreements, & have to meet 'big buying time traditional schedules' like ThanksGiving (retailers say 'biggest shopping day of the year' prior to & into Xmas)... 

Venture capitalists take out loans (or their own cash) & invest... speculating on big returns. 

You ship even 1 day late, per the agreement? You get PENALIZED hugely... not chump change either. So, for investors like those? Win-Win really!

... & as the developer?? YOU ARE UNDER THE PRESSURE TO DELIVER (60-80 hr. work weeks? NOT UNCOMMON - it literally gave me my gray hair, & as far back as my early 30's 10 yrs. ago in fact).

It's how it works man... & WHY!

I was JUST LIKE YOU!

@ least, until I had been commanded "Issue product NOW, even though it has rare & intermittent bugs" that my colleagues & I (not just from NCR division example above, but others too in non-commercial environs) said "IT ONLY WOULD TAKE US A WEEK TOPS TO OVERCOME Q/A's FINDINGS!"

Then we understood 1 thing:  It was OUR paychecks!!! 

See - IT/IS/MIS even??? You are sort of a business INSIDE THE BUSINESS... & only as good as "What have YOU done for me, not lately or ever, but TODAY?" type environs.

* Sad, but true... issue, & patch later IS the way of life in this field, AND THERE IS NO UNION PROTECTING US... I wish to God (no disrespect intended lord, using your name in vain here, just truth) there was a programmer's union!

Many times, when a BIG job is done? You get the axe... then, it's gravy for the oem, not having to pay a fulltime development staff. Imo, a coder today, is probably better off contracting (for the monies @ least, NOT the benefits packages, lol!).

APK

P.S.=> Now, w/ OS? Especially this family (largest programming artifact in existence mind you)?? WAY HARDER... having to account for hardware changes alone would make me ill & probably quit it eventually... 

Personally? About Windows & Win32 & even .NET??? I am surprised to heck it runs as well as it does period & on SO MUCH PERIPHERAL HARDWARE!!! Most versatile platform there is... but, on the reverse/flipside?

Folks like you complaining? Is HOW 'changes for the good' happen... apk


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

DaMulta said:


> LOL I love you guys



LOL! Go easy man... lol!



* You don't want to give the rest of the guys any ideas on ways to take 'shots' @ you based on that comment, lol... too easy, door's WIDE open for that!

APK

P.S.=> Personally? I love discussing this stuff w/ AshenSugar... if that is who you are speaking about (HE & I)...

See, I think I have my BEST discussions on this stuff w/ him imo, here @ this forums @ least... 

Trust me - he does know his stuff to a large extent, & has quite a history on it (probably as long as my own, on Windows PC stuff & DOS @ least)... 

He actually makes me have to CONCENTRATE & THINK... & he has shown me things I was not aware of too, I give him that (mainly, what is better softwares on certain levels, & I sort of consider myself an "amateur coinnoiseur" on softwares)... apk


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

apk what i ment was, ms should have totaly dumped pre win32 app support, removing that crap, with r2 you get ms virtual server(virtual pc server edtion) you can use to run latacy apps on their native os, or you can get vmware for that as well, bouth offer more native support for OLD apps because the apps are running on their native os not emulation.

ms needs to dump out the clutter and crap and make a version of nt thats even more lean and mean then 2003, an os for gamers and performance nuts like most of us, people who dont really want a fisher price or lifesaver gui(vista's default gui is cheezy to me to.....i like form follows function not "eww lets make everything perty!!!!!!" that crap is why i get annoied when i work with macs, stupid noobert gui's bother me.

apk imagin this tho, an os based on BeOS that was fully win32 complyant, and ran on anything p133/128mb ram and up, i dont know how much you know about BeOS but it was a GREAT design, the thing that killed it honestly was when ms pushed it out of the OEM market by thretening their OEM's if they sold systems with Be preinstalled, siting licencing terms that fobid them from doing such.

be's file system is nice, im not expert but the way it works is just wicked, 64bit(this was back in the windows 95 days mind you) uses attributes to do alot of stuff, making searching faster, also avoiding use of a registry(one of the most annoing things in windows to be honest)  i really wish ms had just bought BeOS and built a new windows off its core, a buddy of mine is still running my old celeronA 366 system with BeOS on it, its still fast even by todays standreds, it hasnt been shutdown or restarted in years(hes got everything on ups's) and its still used for office work and some old skool gaming   every time i go over it makes me nastalgic for beos and what it so easly could have been 

and linux nuts are just as bad as old skool mac nuts, they will insist that FUD is FACT all day and night and if you proove them wrong, they will just yell at you or keep argueing that your wrong.

example the other night i had a FOOL try and tell me that linux is better for gaming then windows in every way, that any windows game you could find would run on linux no problem, then when i mentioned the fact that most people arent programers and dont want to spend 4hrs making 1 game work on linux let along spend that 4hrs making 1 game work and finding out that they broke 5 other games to make that one work......

sure native linux games do tend to run better then the windows version on the same hardware, but most games are pure native windows, and as such SUCK under linux.

he also insisted that dx10 games would run under linux as soon as they hit stores and in full dx10 quility to boot..........he got booted from the irc room after about 20 min of ranting at 7 or so of us who where telling him he was full of crap, he angered an op who was his buddy and got a kickban for a week  (apk i told you that rooms good  )

funny part is about 1/3 of more of the ppl in that room use linux as eather their main os or only os and the rest en large have at least some exp with it, one was even a linux programer.....all of them that game have windows on its own box or in dual boot....think that says something


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

oh i understand about shipdates, but i also understand how some companys work, they set dates without listening to the people doing the work OR even asking them, a friend of mine use to work for VUG as a game programer, he couldnt say anything good about them, they rushed out 2 projects he was on MONTHS early, so early infact the games where almost unplayable, patching didnt help much due to the number of problems, in the end they just dumped support and removed the games from their websites(pretended they never happened) 

one game they pushed out early only needed 2 weeks to fix all the campain/script buggs, but because the ppl in charge didnt ask anybody at the company doing the dev work the game got pushed out early, and ended up almost getting the company sued, the first patch was around 230mb, mind you this is back when most ppl had 56k not cable/dsl, then vug got mad that people where downloading and burning the update and sending it to people....even banned them from forums vug had control and influance over......

its publishers like that, that cause us to get 1/2 ass games and apps.

and APK, where they to take the extra time between versions to get them all to server level EVERYBODY would be happyer, ms could put out a beta version for pub testing a year early, take reports, let driver devs and software devs work out buggs and report buggs in the os, acctualy make a better mouse trap, that when it came out was truely ready to shine, and ready for prime.

imagin if you will a world where games came out when they where truely out of the beta phases.

a world where ms dosnt rush out new versions of windows just to maintain market share, where they take the extra time to make sure that the desktop/workstation version of the os is SERVER QUILITY, a world where they stoped supporting apps that where writen to run on an 8080/8088/80286/80386/80486/80586/80686 in the core os, moving that support over to virtual machiens like apple did with osx,  to me this would be a great development, and would lead to ms having to do alot less work to fix buggs caused by that lagacy code, also would mean better perf  and less buggs for the system to cache(viruses and such) since old stuff wouldnt work 

i just get so tired of the "rush it out" "make a buck" mantality of western companys, if a japnese company put out a peice of software as shoddy as what we see for games and windows today they would loose so much face they would probbly go out of buisness or at the very least endup having to recall it and issue a pubik appology, something u willl never see vug,atari or ms do!!!!

and WGA still has problems, honestly i got the ultimet fix for WGA and piracy, it sounds crazy to many people but here it is.

lower the price of GEEKWARE sell us geeks a version of windows at a fraction of the retail and normal OEM price, this version without acctivation, whithout any phone support (unless you pay for it) the only support it would get is windows updates.

sell  starter30buks, home basick for 45bucks, home prem 65, buisness preimum75, ultimet 95-120 range.
sure its a cheaper price, BUT heres the thing, geeks like us, the ones who enlarge aquier our software illegaly would buy it because IT IS CHEAP and we dont need or want ms support, sure some ppl would still steal it, but that number would be 1 hell of alot smaller then it is now.
ms would save $ not having to deal with WGA and other problems from us geeks, because "we dont need their fing help" and nomatter what they say they would still make $ off each copy, also us geeks would be a sorce of promotion for windows, we would be shoing it off to our friends/family and even strangers if it was good enought and on a laptop.

this is why ms gave out so many copys of server 2003 FREE on top of the trial versions, as well as not blocking probbable hacked keys for 2003, because most ppl using 2003 as a workstation endup promoting its sale by the good press they give it and good word of mouth they give it, an ms rep said that exect thing to me.


ms wants to stop/slow piracy, get smart, insted of fighting it with crap like WGA give people windows at a price they can afford for a decent version without the hassles.


but ms wants to get every dime they can from each sale, dispite the fact that the harder they grab the more slips thru their fingers....


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> apk what i ment was, ms should have totaly dumped pre win32 app support,



Aha, got ya... I have heard that tack before, & it would make life easier for MS no doubt... but, it might alienate folks.

See, in commercial business environs? Sometimes, you CAN'T find a turnkey solution via some older KEY applications, that may have been written in Win16 or even DOS code... yes, it happens.

Removal of that 'Crap'? Might turn a BIG customer (or even many tiny ones) to alternates like Linux/UNIX... & can't have that! lol...



AshenSugar said:


> removing that crap, with r2 you get ms virtual server(virtual pc server edtion) you can use to run latacy apps on their native os, or you can get vmware for that as well, bouth offer more native support for OLD apps because the apps are running on their native os not emulation.



I ran R2... it floored my rig. It's not final afaik either... It ran great for around a month here, & then suddenly? POP! One day I could not boot OR recover... & I tried every trick I know for it... lost one HELL of a great setup too, compilers & all (ghost was not current either on it).

Could have been me, but it's not being a FINAL then? Well... you know!

Is it FINAL now?

(I was upset w/ myself, because I put up a post saying it was GREAT... & around 1-2 weeks later, it began lagging various simple operations & BOOM, down it went shortly after! I would like to find that post & amend it to be honest! I 'jumped the gun' stupidly, imo!)



AshenSugar said:


> ms needs to dump out the clutter and crap and make a version of nt thats even more lean and mean then 2003, an os for gamers and performance nuts like most of us, people who dont really want a fisher price or lifesaver gui(vista's default gui is cheezy to me to.....i like form follows function not "eww lets make everything perty!!!!!!" that crap is why i get annoied when i work with macs, stupid noobert gui's bother me.



It would be nice... but, I don't think it will happen because of the business reasons & legacy apps customers use from 3rd parties that no longer may exist, & to which they have NO SOURCECODE for porting it to newer OS... 

See, on this note?

I have been parts of teams that rewrite such legacy apps (homegrown/inhouse stuff) say porting from DOS/Win9x FoxPro -> Windows 2000 & Oracle or SQLServer on the back end... & trust me: NOT TRIVIAL, & large!

(1 million++ lines of code alone, a few times now doing "enterprise class development" stuff that runs the business, & that's NOT counting SQL work on the Servers & changing data type mismatches that diff. DB engines treat differently & FAR more).

Again - I feel as you do, & agree, but it is NOT how it works, for money reasons & yes, time in porting reasons, & why, how I noted it above.

To quote Sgt. Barnes from the film PLATOON: "There's the way it oughtta be, & there's the way it is"...

(NO ONE CAN KILL BARNES... EXCEPT BARNES! lol...)



AshenSugar said:


> apk imagin this tho, an os based on BeOS that was fully win32 complyant, and ran on anything p133/128mb ram and up, i dont know how much you know about BeOS but it was a GREAT design, the thing that killed it honestly was when ms pushed it out of the OEM market by thretening their OEM's if they sold systems with Be preinstalled, siting licencing terms that fobid them from doing such.



I thought Os/2 was going to BE that man...

& I guessed wrong. 

STILL good came outta it (legacy apps, companies I worked @ had them, the NCR division too, had Os/2 & i had work tuning & tweaking it for them ontop of my dev duties in VB4)...

Some of NT came out of it, NTFS based off of (partially) HPFS designs & blocks/band/extents type design iirc (not same security though)... 

On Os/2 in the end? WELL, I guessed wrong & spent money on it, defraggers, & backup tools for it + Office apps too.



AshenSugar said:


> be's file system is nice, im not expert but the way it works is just wicked, 64bit(this was back in the windows 95 days mind you) uses attributes to do alot of stuff, making searching faster, also avoiding use of a registry(one of the most annoing things in windows to be honest)  i really wish ms had just bought BeOS and built a new windows off its core, a buddy of mine is still running my old celeronA 366 system with BeOS on it, its still fast even by todays standreds, it hasnt been shutdown or restarted in years(hes got everything on ups's) and its still used for office work and some old skool gaming   every time i go over it makes me nastalgic for beos and what it so easly could have been



If you feel this way? Look up this:

SINGULARITY

From Microsoft... what you are looking for, partially @ least, IS COMING... one day @ least.



AshenSugar said:


> and linux nuts are just as bad as old skool mac nuts, they will insist that FUD is FACT all day and night and if you proove them wrong, they will just yell at you or keep argueing that your wrong.



I've been kicked outta forums for taking them on, leaving them swearing @ me (this is when I know I have someone on the ropes in debate, lol, usually... I generally won't toss it back, until they serve it up to me first... Then, it's "DESTROY WITH FACTS" time!)... 

SETI & SLASHDOT being two examples, even Windows IT Pro forums (mods deleted my posts until I exposed them @ slashdot for it, they put most of them back).

Oh, I could blow right back in & @ SETI the mods even deleted my posts with facts... so, I ran them around putting them RIGHT back, banned or not, & my account shut or not, lol... don't ask how, lol, 'ancient chinese secret'... 

All because of this LINUX zealot Michael Buckingham there... lol, who did a "APK MUST DIE" type of thing like Arstechnica's Jay Little did, & Arstechnica's Jeremy Reimer did, impersonating me on his forums, writing a song about me, doing an edited photo of me (both not good ones) & also more. 

The worst was them following me to other forums, EVEN THIS ONE, & folks saw it... & other sites, trying it yet again, only to have to hide in shame. 

On the 2 from arstechnica though, lol? 

It got their websites shutdown (they just moved them though) by their ISP/BSP hosting providers & more if I wanted... lol! BUT, that's good enough for me. They tried it on me, & LOL, it literally BACKFIRED on them instead.

They brought it, I finished it. Nuff said.

See... I don't like doing it, but my job's in this field... 

STILL:  I won't lose PUBLICLY to the likes of those kind of folks & when you get them in such a state? You have won... facts win.



AshenSugar said:


> example the other night i had a FOOL try and tell me that linux is better for gaming then windows in every way, that any windows game you could find would run on linux no problem, then when i mentioned the fact that most people arent programers and dont want to spend 4hrs making 1 game work on linux let along spend that 4hrs making 1 game work and finding out that they broke 5 other games to make that one work......



He's wrong... "Wintendo" lol, is great gaming wise, which is why (business reasons again) you see SO much driver support & yes, developed games for it, vs. Linux or others.

Money is there to be MADE in it... but, sometimes, Linux can be hellishly good gaming too, IDSoftware stuff runs excellently on it I have heard.



AshenSugar said:


> sure native linux games do tend to run better then the windows version on the same hardware, but most games are pure native windows, and as such SUCK under linux.



Linux has 1 thing going for it, 2 actually: Afaik, it doesn't have the legacy code BULK in it for 16-bit stuff, it was never 16 bit period, from its own former versions (it has been built off a great tree this way by Linus T. & crew) & it even does WINE & other emulations too...

BUT, as far as peripheral driver support for even gaming peripherals alone? It's always going to lag, & in other areas too... this is until commercial oem's see a GOOD "ROI" (return on investment) on developing for Linux!

Coder time? NOT CHEAP man... I understand business' viewpoint, though I tend to often loathe it?? It's my paycheck.



AshenSugar said:


> he also insisted that dx10 games would run under linux as soon as they hit stores and in full dx10 quility to boot..........he got booted from the irc room after about 20 min of ranting at 7 or so of us who where telling him he was full of crap, he angered an op who was his buddy and got a kickban for a week  (apk i told you that rooms good  )



I will stop in sometime, just busy, & you know my thoughts on IRC... period.



AshenSugar said:


> funny part is about 1/3 of more of the ppl in that room use linux as eather their main os or only os and the rest en large have at least some exp with it, one was even a linux programer.....all of them that game have windows on its own box or in dual boot....think that says something



Right... the guy you speak of that caused the trouble, lol, was just 'heckling' you guys, & probably did not have 1/2 the know-how/saavy on all of this you folks had... take it as that.

On IRC? You're NOT as visible as you are out here... "losing/winning" technical debates are not as likely to be seen... & yes, there IS winning & losing in this life, & I don't care if anybody says "fighting online is retarded" etc.

For most folks? Probably is... they are not making their living in it... their rep's NOT on-the-line (literally & figureatively, lol), nothing to lose.

Guys making their lives in it, like I have been? I literally can't afford to take a beating in debates on it... & I won't walk away & hide either, protecting myself that way.

Conversely, I will try to avoid fights, but NOT if they're brought my way, first & in bogus ways (per arstechnica crap above - several of them followed me over 5 yrs. now to sites, including this one, & I have to 'take them out' everytime, myself, & asked folks here & on @ LEAST 5 other forums, stay out of it...)

Why? LOL, I want the 'glory' for myself is why, lol, & not to involve others. You do it yourself, just like in real life & in the street? Well... the idiots like that steer clear of you for good usually... unless they're gluttons for punishment that is.

BUT, when I am wrong, OUTRIGHT WRONG, on ALL counts/situations? I admit it... per my list on the last page... being proud's 1 thing, but being a stubborn douchebag is another.

ENOUGH OUTTA ME ALREADY ABOUT THAT: Rants is all that is.

APK

P.S.=> Outta this one guys, but good to see no more arguing... this forums is TOO damn good for that imo, but it does happen, because we like this stuff! apk


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## Wile E (Mar 1, 2007)

Mediocre said:


> AHHH how can anyone's spelling be sooo freakin bad. I would absolutely love to learn about this topic and take sides, but I just don't have the patients to get through all the spelling errors. Not to mention the condescending tone.


Well, if you're gonna nit-pick someones spelling, you should probably use the words with proper definitions. 

IE: patients = people at a Hospital
     patience = not getting upset easily


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Well, if you're gonna nit-pick someones spelling, you should probably use the words with proper definitions.
> 
> IE: patients = people at a Hospital
> patience = not getting upset easily



WILE E, FTW! "And, the crowd goes WILD: "rrrraaaaaaaaa"" lol, etc.



(LOL!)

APK

P.S.=> "Cast not stones in glass houses, & he with no sin? CAST THAT FIRST STONE!"

Just being a wise-guy...

And, nothing personal Mediocre, but he does have a point... mistakes: WE ALL MAKE 'EM! This is just proof of it...

Anyhow... outta here! apk


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

apk r2 went gold LONG ago, and its just 2003 sp1 with virtual server and some extra apps on a 2nd cd, nothing to fancy, infact if u tweak 2003 a little u can fit both cds on 1 disk 

and i have 26 accounts banned on 1 forums(they had pathetic secutiry and i told them about it, they banned me for pointing it out waas how it started)   it got stupid i made all the accounts using proxys in one night, then spent the next month posting random shit, defaiming mods/admins who talked out their asses, when they figuared out who i was they 
banned me and i loged into the next account, it was fun, and drove them so nuts they ended up changing forums programs 

as i said, if they supported lagacy apps with virtual server or vmware server(better choice) then theres no need for the core os to support it, infact i know of 2 companys(i worked for both under the counter) that are using vmware server to run old dos/telnet based database apps, stuff that you cant get a new version of, guess what, the companys found that using vmware and dos/freedos worked 100x better then using the same apps in windows dispite them being able to run in windows.

sames true for win16 apps, run them on an os that can run them native, one of this companys servers had 4 vm's running on it 1 dos, 1 nt4, 1 linux, 1 os/2 all running apps they had that eather requiered their native os OR ran ALOT better on their native app, also they found backing up VM's far easyer then imaging sepret servers(no shit,u just use just backup the vm file every XX hours and sall good insted of having to image a whole server


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

Alec§taar said:


> WILE E, FTW! "And, the crowd goes WILD: "rrrraaaaaaaaa"" lol, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i wasnt going to say anything, honestly i didnt want to argue with that guy, my mothers a chiropractor, and i know the proper spellying of both versions of that word, but i figuared i would give him a pass, because, hell, i know my spelling is bad, i want to see this guy spell good when drunk, because thats kinda how i see words when i type them at times, they look fine to me then when ppl read them they dont look right......

but thanks Wile E, im glad somebody else did point this out to him.

it seems its alwase those that bitch about others spelling/diction/grammer that endup making these kinds of mistakes, i use to call them on it but, well i have lightened up alot 

btw apk, thanks for your defence of me and my horrid spelling, and for being a good guy 

same to you Wile E, those without flaw cast the first stone in the glass ship gliding over the bottem  less abyss


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## Wile E (Mar 1, 2007)

Ashan, I was thinking about how you said MS should've waited to go gold on Vista. You cited that 2003 is way better than XP, because it fixed all of XP's bugs. But how would MS have known about the bugs in XP, if it were not released to the public? I think the same holds true for Vista. I think that MS, even as large as they are, doesn't have the resources to test every possible combination, thus they have to have the public do via bug reports.

And about Nero 7, it just didn't mix well with our systems. I can't speak for the others, as it could've been user error, but I had a much higher failed burn rate with DVD-R and DL DVD with Nero compared to Roxio, approaching almost 2to1. I will say that the interface of Roxio is more buggy, however. (Using version 9, btw) I hear that Nero has made vast improvements since the 7.5 update tho. I may give it another shot. Quick ques, does Nero have disk spanning, I don't remember?


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

*ARGH!!! DRAGGING ME BACK IN HERE AGAIN ARE YOU!!! lol...*



AshenSugar said:


> apk r2 went gold LONG ago, and its just 2003 sp1 with virtual server and some extra apps on a 2nd cd, nothing to fancy, infact if u tweak 2003 a little u can fit both cds on 1 disk



Cool, like I stated above? I was not sure, I asked... right thing to do. Now, I got STRONGER for it. The main idea imo!



AshenSugar said:


> and i have 26 accounts banned on 1 forums(they had pathetic secutiry and i told them about it, they banned me for pointing it out waas how it started)



Aha... so, you 'have lived' as I call it, lol... can't live like a man imo, & not make a few of them imo @ least! Enemies...

& to be honest? In many ways?? 

THERE IS NO PRIVACY (Scott McNealy of Sun Microsystems quote) & NO IMPENETRABLE SECURITY, not online on the public net... not really, @ least not yet.



AshenSugar said:


> it got stupid i made all the accounts using proxys in one night, then spent the next month posting random shit, defaiming mods/admins who talked out their asses, when they figuared out who i was they banned me and i loged into the next account, it was fun, and drove them so nuts they ended up changing forums programs



Sometimes, it's worth it... others not. I just do folks in w/ facts MOST times... sometimes, though, it gets into the mud, but I don't sling that first... I try to keep things ON TOPIC, about this field, & facts thereof, etc. et al.



ANYWAYS!!! WHERE'S THAT MAIL MAN!!!

LOL!

APK


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> btw apk, thanks for your defence of me and my horrid spelling, and for being a good guy



Oh, no problem, likewise... & nothing against Mediocre either!



* Just trying to get everyone, off everyone's back here, & to inform as best I know of on various facts (hey, I can be wrong too).

APK


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

cant remmber, i never span disks personaly, it probbly does, its got to many fetures to count, i just use the core api not all the extencive extras its got 
weird, i neer had it fail me on dvd burns on good media, bad crappy media, well yeah, but thats to be expected, i have some media that was 12bucks for 50 disks, some of it has airbubbles inthe central spindle and such, if u look at the numbers on the media  you can tell what disks will be bad and what ones will work fine out of those packs tho so sall good.....well not all but u get what i mean 


and ms already knew about xp's huge flaws, but needed to get something out to replace ME FAST, 2003 was already being torn down from xp beta code for them to start over and fix what was screwed up.

see xp was the result of 2 projects ms combine, neptune and odicy(sp) one was going to be the pro side of the coin, made for buisness and power users, the other was going to be for home users to replace ME and the other 9x core os's, but bill got some great advice to combine the 2 projects and thus whislter was born, premature and full of birth defects......

ms KNEW it wasnt up to par, hence the rebuild to get 2003, the major security flaws that left windows open to things like blaster well they excisted in nt4 and 2k, ms had been warrned about them manytimes, till oneday an asshole programer desided to fuck with ms and exploit it using blaster, we saw how that worked out.

most of the problems with vista ms knows about already, they put the os out anyway, just as they did with xp, the last "gold" quility os ms put out was 2k, and it had its growing pains, but at least it wasnt as flawed as xp, it wasnt rushed out to meet a rushed deadline, no key fetures where removed to allow more DRM thus taking away from time that could have been spend refigning the os as a whole.......

long story short, ms knows what they are doing, they are selling the world beta software and using paying costmers as beta testers....they are the only company i know of that gets their beta testers to pay them for the privlege of being beta testers......


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## Wile E (Mar 1, 2007)

Ahhh, I see Ashan. Known flaws versus undiscovered flaws. Makes a little more sense to me now.

My Nero finding were with the same spools of media. Honestly, judging by reviews, it seems it just may be something about my particular setup. Either way, Roxio just works better for me. I think I'm gonna give Nero 7.5 a try, however.


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

apk i sent it 3 times now, you should check our spam folder, msn/hotmail is bad about putting emails form some servers into the wrong places, and i just checked it says the emails sent successfully so it has to be something on your end......u didnt block me did you


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> apk i sent it 3 times now, you should check our spam folder, msn/hotmail is bad about putting emails form some servers into the wrong places, and i just checked it says the emails sent successfully so it has to be something on your end......u didnt block me did you



Got ya, but weird... I got mails from you before!

... and, want to know one for your 'books' about flaws in the OS? Here is a DANGEROUS one... unstoppeable, if a virus used it, check it:

NTFS - has an MFT$, right (master file table)... 

WELL, zero-byte length files eat NO space you'd think...right?

Ah... but, they DO... 

Say, you have a memory resident virus/malware, etc. that creates enough of them via a virus/malware in RAM doing so, looping constantly doing this & under a deep subfolder to hide it, & then, guess what happens?

(ANSWER - YOU BLOAT THE MFT$ & FLOOD OUT YOUR DISK (outta space, you die, generally))



* Think about it... 

YES, the MFT$ has a 'reservation zone' but, it can fragment & GROW!

... & also, from what I understand about it? It does NOT go thru what many DB's can (it's a flatfile DB type system like an file table really, just not relational, YET, that's what was taken outta VISTA, & I have seen it work WELL on Os/400 on IBM bigiron)... a reorg!

A reorg (midrange/mainframe/db term) is SORT of a defrag for tables, removing blank entries (like how Outlook Express can compact its tables, because all emails usually are DB Mail programs really), to compact out space!

AND, because, & GET THIS - every file you EVER HAD on NTFS? Is still listed in it afaik... maybe 'marked for deletion' but not deleted! NOT TRULY BLANK, & neither are most deletes in database systems for sake of speed...

It's just like you may have heard how DELETES work, raising the first character of the filename in the table to some HIGHER ASCII one. The filesystems drivers don't recognize those (used also in steganography - hiding files & folders too, as proof of this).

ANOTHER security hole imo... & dangerous depending on what you keep on your system or EVER did.

* AND, largely, THIS IS WHY NTFS UNDELETERS CAN WORK!

APK

P.S.=> Maybe I should NOT have put that one out, I've known about it for about 10 yrs... & all we need is some fool to spot this & use it... ugh! apk


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## AshenSugar (Mar 1, 2007)

lol, yeah thats like the old dos "mirror" command trick that if looped could fill a harddrive, and i use to have an app, cant remmber its name, but it would insure a full delete of any files you told it to delete, including the MTF entries, it could also scan for MTF entries that where obsolete and delete them, god what was it called.....gonna drive me crazy.......

was a treat secutiry app tho, if u ran it full out not even an emetron microscope could be used to recover data off the drive.


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## Alec§taar (Mar 1, 2007)

AshenSugar said:


> lol, yeah thats like the old dos "mirror" command trick that if looped could fill a harddrive, and i use to have an app, cant remmber its name, but it would insure a full delete of any files you told it to delete, including the MTF entries, it could also scan for MTF entries that where obsolete and delete them, god what was it called.....gonna drive me crazy.......
> 
> was a treat secutiry app tho, if u ran it full out not even an emetron microscope could be used to recover data off the drive.



I want to know the name of this app... probably sysinternals stuff!

Specifically, IF that can remove MFT$ entries, & SECURELY, not just first character deletes!

(Yes, there is a way to do it & here is how)

I do it in a secure shredder I wrote in fact, now that I think about it, lol!







& the way you do it programmatically, is rename EVERY character in the fileNAME with random chars 3x iirc, up to the last character (like you secure delete on disk on files, basically, but just for the filename in any file table).

* Still, iirc, this ONLY "obscures it in MFT$", imo, but not REALLY removing it at a record level (think DB tables as to record datastructures, you will understand).

APK

P.S.=> Still, the part about NTFS bloat? STILL VERY REAL w/ zero byte length sized files... "If do right, No can defense, Danielsan", afaik... not really! apk


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