# The Ugly Truth About Hackers



## KainXS (Apr 11, 2010)

A must read, check it out

http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/news/the-ugly-truth-about-hackers-012335.php


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

KainXS said:


> A must read, check it out
> 
> http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/news/the-ugly-truth-about-hackers-012335.php



Bullshit.


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## Kreij (Apr 11, 2010)

Could you be a little more eloquent MM? 
Like maybe tell us what you don't agree with in the article?


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

i wish I got to see that sony paycheck. that would be a nice amount of 0's...and probably followed by a .99 lol I had too.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Could you be a little more eloquent MM?
> Like maybe tell us what you don't agree with in the article?



Its just the same old argument with a new wrapping. Hackers break the law. For whatever reason they do it is irrelevant. Its all just sugar coated stealing plain and simple. Bullshit.


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## douglatins (Apr 11, 2010)

I've read most of it, and the part that the hackers made games better, its difficult to accept all of it, but i do think they are one of the most important parts of the web, doing good and bad things.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

This is the same old argument. As old as Nvidia vs. ATI and Intel vs. AMD. The horse is dead, dug up, resurrected, beat to death, buried, dug up...........


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## digibucc (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its just the same old argument with a new wrapping. Hackers break the law. For whatever reason they do it is irrelevant. Its all just sugar coated stealing plain and simple. Bullshit.



yeah, disagreed.

pirates and destructive hackers break the law, and 99% of it is bad.  but there is at least something to be recognized in the argument of overpriced digital goods, though their methods are simply wrong.

however, they are a small percentage of "hackers"  to throw them all in the same category because the same word is attributed to them is also simply wrong.  not all hackers are out for destruction or free shit - and many if not most cause no harm at all.


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

I always say if your good at something don't do it for free. The hackers obviously gain something from this like a nice cushy job whearas they should be punished since it's against the law.


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## imperialreign (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> This is the same old argument. As old as Nvidia vs. ATI and Intel vs. AMD. The horse is dead, dug up, resurrected, beat to death, buried, dug up...........



Necromancy is addictive, man . . .

. . . and, yeah, this argument has been covered from more angles than most are willing to look at it.

The effed up part, IMHO, is how some people/companies keep trying to justify their actions, like they're actually doing good, or promoting legit software or some BS or another.

ATM, I'm staying off of my soap box regarding this subject - it's getting a little worn out from how many times I've climbed up on it.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

digibucc said:


> yeah, disagreed.
> 
> pirates and destructive hackers break the law, and 99% of it is bad.  but there is at least something to be recognized in the argument of overpriced digital goods, though their methods are simply wrong.
> 
> however, they are a small percentage of "hackers"  to throw them all in the same category because the same word is attributed to them is also simply wrong.  not all hackers are out for destruction or free shit - and many if not most cause no harm at all.



They break the law. What is "good" in your eyes is still illegal. If you do something against the law for good you do NOT do it for notoriety which is exactly what Hackers do.

"Hey look what I can do!!! Ain't I a hero?!" No your a hoodlum now GTFO.


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> They break the law. What is "good" in your eyes is illegal. If you do something against the law for good you do NOT do it for notoriety which is exactly what Hackers do.
> 
> "Hey look what I can do!!! Ain't I a hero?!" No your a hoodlum.



I'm going to play devils advocate and say what about Rosa Parks who broke the law ? Or all the other blacks that did so.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate and say what about Rosa Parks who broke the law ? Or all the other blacks that did so.



She never broke the law. It was a social taboo she broke.


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## Triprift (Apr 11, 2010)

Just look at the Iphone were would that be without Jailbreaking im pretty certain alot of ppl woudnt of bought or would have got another phone if that didnt come about. If anything they (Apple) should be thanking them for making a good phone great.


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## qubit (Apr 11, 2010)

You can tell that article is corporate propaganda bullshit dressed up as an opinion peice - just the title says it all. I wonder how much that writer was paid to spout this?


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## MilkyWay (Apr 11, 2010)

I have to disagree, i have Aspergers Syndrome so i know what that is like and the guy who hacked into NASA or something a few years back from Scotland he has that too.

To him it can seem okay because he isn't stealing that's his mindset because he has AS in reality he broke into a system illegally, yeah so much for Americans being the best at everything the way he got in was through a terminal someone left logged in.

Homebrew programmers and hackers are 2 separate entities that the posted article seems to be making out to be the same thing.

TBH i have to agree ALL hackers do it for a bit of notoriety and a challenge but they all know fully well what they are doing and that they are breaking laws.

There are professional hacking competitions to challenge security designers and yeah a lot of hackers end up getting jobs with real companies.

AGAIN the homebrew scene and the hacking scene are 2 different things i shouldn't need to explain the difference.


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> She never broke the law. It was a social taboo she broke.



That's why I added that second bit on because I realised she never broke the law. Well what about all the jews that "broke" nazi germany's laws ? Like I said I'm on your side just presenting a slight flaw.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

Triprift said:


> Just look at the Iphone were would that be without Jailbreaking im pretty certain alot of ppl woudnt of bought or would have got another phone if that didnt come about. If anything they (Apple) should be thanking them for making a good phone great.


 And every person who does it breaks the law and will cry like a baby when Apple bricks it forcing you to buy a new one.



qubit said:


> You can tell that article is corporate propaganda bullshit dressed up as an opinion peice - just the title says it all. I wonder how much that writer was paid to spout this?


 WTF? It praised hackers.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> She never broke the law. It was a social taboo she broke.



TBH there where the Jim Crow laws and other real laws, sitting in the white section of a bus could be state (local) law back then and you know that.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

MilkyWay said:


> I have to disagree, i have Aspergers Syndrome so i know what that is like and the guy who hacked into NASA or something a few years back from Scotland he has that too.
> 
> To him it can seem okay because he isn't stealing that's his mindset because he has AS in reality he broke into a system illegally, yeah so much for Americans being the best at everything the way he got in was through a terminal someone left logged in.
> 
> ...


 Who said Americans were the best at everything? Don't bring your inferiority complex into this please.



DrPepper said:


> That's why I added that second bit on because I realised she never broke the law. Well what about all the jews that "broke" nazi germany's laws ? Like I said I'm on your side just presenting a slight flaw.


 There is an exception to every rule or law. Hackers are not in danger of genocide.


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## qubit (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> WTF? It praised hackers.



It did? It criticised them quite heavily but then made the point that some good still comes out of the practice, despite it being bad. That's not praise to me.


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Who said Americans were the best at everything? Don't bring your inferiority complex into this please.
> 
> There is an exception to every rule or law. Hackers are not in danger of genocide.



Just pointing out that because it's a law doesn't mean its sensible.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Just pointing out that because it's a law doesn't mean its sensible.



Common sense is sometimes forgotten.


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Common sense is sometimes forgotten.



Common sense is a super power these days. There are plenty of wierd laws but I don't see why hackers need to cause free software and games to be released when they hack a console. Why can't they hack it and not show how to pirate stuff ?


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

qubit said:


> It did? It criticised them quite heavily but then made the point that some good still comes out of the practice, despite it being bad. That's not praise to me.



agreed the end sentence was pretty much the only thing that praised them. Everything else made them seem like basement dwelling criminal kids, which is diffirent than intelligent indavidual with far superior coding skills than you or I that could actually do great things for the tech industry if given a chance instead of getting thrown in jail.


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## Triprift (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And every person who does it breaks the law and will cry like a baby when Apple bricks it forcing you to buy a new one.



Then Apple will be the ones who suffer as ppl will leave them in droves just look at all the fuss with drm that pissed off heaps not a good idea to piss of the majority of your users.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

Hackers are like a bomb-squad.  They remove the self-destructing code in the applications so they won't damage the software or system.   How is that a bad thing?  The "bullshit" lies in why people are putting self-destructing code in those applications in the first place.  Where I'm from, we call that a virus and it is not tolerated.

I'm wary about laying money down for any game now.  I don't like all the guilty until proven innocent "bullshit" software comes with today..


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Hackers are like a bomb-squad.  They remove the self-destructing code in the applications so they won't damage the software or system.   How is that a bad thing?  The "bullshit" lies in why people are putting self-destructing code in those applications in the first place.  Where I'm from, we call that a virus and it is not tolerated.
> 
> I'm wary about laying money down for any game now.  I don't like all the guilty until proven innocent "bullshit" software comes with today..



I agree. Pirates are the one's who get it easy compared to the people who buy it


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## Steevo (Apr 11, 2010)

They will include homebrew programmers in the same class? really? So friends of mine who have made some homebrew for certain phones, and other mobile devices are hackers and breaking federal law? 


A couple got jobs for what they did. 


Plus the actual term they are looking for is "crackers" as they crack the security. TO "hack" something together is more of fixing a puzzle or gaining results by cutting the pieces to fit how you want them. I hack stuff together all the time to make it work the way I want. I had a company come out and take pics of a GPS system I put together as they couldn't do it.

The article is a bullshit attempt to awaken the pubic to the "harm" these people cause. What about the harm caused to me when I can't watch movies I own over certain cables due to their DRM bullshit, it is just another ponzi like scheme to force consumers to buy new things when they are happy with the items they own. How many people have bought new stuff only as their new DVD player wouldn't work with this cable, or that TV in the way their old one would? How hard did they rape the public on the price of CD's, DVD's and now Blu-Ray? 


The fact is when a company advertises a item with certain specs for a certain price, then removes some beneficial item, they should be forced to drop the price. If not by consumers, by laws and regulations. They have no problem spending millions they make in lobbying for their rights, to hold us down, but cry and moan about having to provide services they products at a fair price to the same consumers they are pillaging.


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## qubit (Apr 11, 2010)

Also, isn't it funny how the article once didn't mention DRM and how it unfairly restricts competition and removes user's rights. Anyone tried selling a Steam game they no longer wanted, lately? Thought so.

Yeah, that writer is a corporate shill and deliberately wrote that article to be provocative. You could probably even call it a troll post, perhaps?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Hackers are like a bomb-squad.  They remove the self-destructing code in the applications so they won't damage the software or system.   How is that a bad thing?  The "bullshit" lies in why people are putting self-destructing code in those applications in the first place.  Where I'm from, we call that a virus and it is not tolerated.
> 
> I'm wary about laying money down for any game now.  I don't like all the guilty until proven innocent "bullshit" software comes with today..



That code wouldn't have put in there to begin with if it wasn't for hackers. Now you rely on hackers to remove it. See where this is going?



Steevo said:


> They will include homebrew programmers in the same class? really? So friends of mine who have made some homebrew for certain phones, and other mobile devices are hackers and breaking federal law?
> 
> 
> A couple got jobs for what they did.
> ...



And people will always moan and cry in this "entitlement" age.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its not a valid point. You are the only one that brought nationality into this. Who picks what is an exception? Common sense and in come cases history.



I think it was implied with all the bogus laws the USA has against digital rights I think thats NATIONS assuming were the best, alot of those countrys dont have our restrictions. You know incase the big bad coders decide to blow up the planet. So what a Scot hacked NASA He's right we do think were tough shit. You may not think we do. But your position on the topic is clear and its obvious why you wouldnt notice.

Admeral Ackbar says: Its a TRAP! WE CANNOT REPEL HULIGAINS OF THAT MAGNITUDE!


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> I think it was implied with all the bogus laws the USA has against digital rights I think thats NATIONS assuming were the best, alot of those countrys dont have our restrictions. You know incase the big bad coders decide to blow up the planet. So what a Scot hacked NASA He's right we do think were tough shit. You may not think we do. But your position on the topic is clear and its obvious why you wouldnt notice.
> 
> Admeral Ackbar says: Its a TRAP! WE CANNOT REPEL HULIGAINS OF THAT MAGNITUDE!



Stop saying "we". I know from experience now matter how good you are someone out there is better. Plus the US government is one of the most incompetent entities on the planet. Ever been to the DMV? Yeah I thought so.

All I know is this will turn into half the forum vs me in a few more posts.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> I agree. Pirates are the one's who get it easy compared to the people who buy it


As it should be.  They remove the bombs from the building so there's no fear of the building collapsing on top of you at some mad-man's whim.

I've had legimate games scream and yell at me to put the disk in the drive.  Why?  The disk isn't required for the game to function.  Even then, the disk *was in the drive* so what you bitching and moaning about?  All a legitimate game owner can do in that situation is endlessly eject and put the disk back in until the "bullshit" is satisfied I am not a pirate.  If I call up the publisher, what do they do?  You are a pirate, they won't help you not that they have ever been helpful since pre-2000.  Basically, you now have a $40-60 frisbee on your hands but wait, there's hope: Pirates/hackers to the rescue!  Replace a few files and viola, games works again without the stupid disk in the drive!  The pirates/hackers are more useful to the customer than the publisher for one simple reason: pirates/hackers believe people are innocent until proven guilty; publishers believe you are guilty until proven innocent by their dodgy software.  Publishers created that bomb squad and it won't go away until they quit planting bombs.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Stop saying "we". I know from experience now matter how good you are someone out there is better. Plus the US government is one of the most incompetent entities on the planet. Ever been to the DMV? Yeah I thought so.



ok so you worked at correcting my grammer because of your personal belifes in the US govt. Its coding populos and this is a valid argument how? that screams "IMO" at which point it is baseless.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> That code wouldn't have put in there to begin with if it wasn't for hackers. Now you rely on hackers to remove it. See where this is going?


Hackers are people skilled with computers.  Back in the day, any idiot could "pirate" a game just like they can pirate a movie.  The hackers didn't flock to gaming until anti-piracy software was put in place (e.g. Macrovision's Checkdisk).  There was now a challenge and an incentive to break the code.


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## imperialreign (Apr 11, 2010)

"hacking" by today's standards is completely different than what it was 10-15 years ago.

10-15 years ago, "hacking" was all about "freedom of information," it wasn't so much about "breaking" into systems or programs for the hell of it, it was out of curiosity and the quest for knowledge.  Thing is, though, everyone involved in the scene _*knew*_ what we were doing was illegal - we didn't try to justify it, instead defending our actions in our access to "knowledge."

This sums up the "hacking" scene of 15 years ago: http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/manifesto.html


For those of us who wer part of that scene at some point or anothed, long before it became "glamorized" by movies such as "Hackers," how much of that still applies to these "hackers" of today?

Today, the "hackers" break such systems and software for bragging rights - if you've payed any attention to these underground communities, there's near constant in-fighting and trying to out-do other groups.  It's all a show of one-upmanship . . . _not_ what we had nearly a score years ago.  As well, they try to justify their actions, and have confused themselves into believing that they're not doing anything illegal (although, I still stand by the belief that if one must justify one's actions, then one knows it's unethical), and that they're acting for the betterment of society.


No matter how you look at it, it's still all illegal.  Sure, sometimes the occasional good does come out of it (most modern corporate and government network systems wouldn't be anywhere near as secure as they currently are if not for the old-school phreaks), but that's a rare circumstance.  95% of the time, that's not how things will go down.



-EDIT-

. . . and, BTW, just to clear things up . . . "hackers" today are actually "crackers" - I've never viewed any of these kiddies as being what the _old-school_ were.


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## qubit (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Plus the US government is one of the most incompetent entities on the planet. Ever been to the DMV? Yeah I thought so.
> 
> All I know is this will turn into half the forum vs me in a few more posts.



Nah, you're wrong good buddy. The British government takes that cake!  I mean seriously, what a bunch of clowns.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> ok so you worked at correcting my grammer because of your personal belifes in the US govt. Its coding populos and this is a valid argument how? that screams "IMO" at which point it is baseless.



No MilkyWay statement was based off assumption and opinion. The entire argument about "Americans being the best" is not only irrelevant but based off opinion and assumption as your statement is. We are in FACT not the best at anything. Nor is anyone else.



qubit said:


> Nah, you're wrong good buddy. The British government takes that cake!  I mean seriously, what a bunch of clowns.



See we cant even agree on who's more incompetent!


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## kid41212003 (Apr 11, 2010)

I don't think hackers are actually doing illegal things, even if they distribute their cracks all over the internet.

Uploading illegal copies of games are illegal. Not the crack itself nor the hackers.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> That code wouldn't have put in there to begin with if it wasn't for hackers. Now you rely on hackers to remove it. See where this is going?



Honestly its not just hackers its the homebrew scene too, if you look at it the big companies didn't like the bedroom programmers of the 80s. They try to shut out the homebrew scene because it detracts from the big companies.

Before piracy there was homebrew.

Its like years ago they started implementing security on disks ect because they thought piracy might be an issue that age old saying prevention is better than treatment. Panic mongers implementing things way before its happened.

Piracy has been and always will be, people used to get twin recorder video players to copy video tapes.

You cant treat piracy unless you start effecting other areas, like the removal of otherOS on PS3.

EDIT: NASA and the US Military is "SAID" to have the best security, if i mistook that as fact apologies. Its not really something i can test out is it. One man broke into a security system through a remote connection to an unmanned terminal had a person been there they would've noticed it. The whole point was that the guy didn't really do anything morally wrong just broke a few international and US laws.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ever hear of reverse engineering?


Reverse engineering is legal so long as the people doing reverse engineering had no contact with those that originally authored it.


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## Melvis (Apr 11, 2010)

With out hackers you wouldn't have the security of today.

Im not saying what they do is right, but it makes the next gen stuff even better.

Just watch Takedown.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Reverse engineering is legal so long as the people doing reverse engineering had no contact with those that originally authored it.



Most EULA prohibit it.



Solaris17 said:


> Why? your perception of perfect or better is warped. Like everyone else. Like all of us. However Their is no reason why someone else cant be the best. How could it? You know what dont answer that this is derailed enough. This isnt about personal opinions on rash statements tought to us over the years. Not to mention its incredably off topic.



Agreed.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

I think one of the important distinctions people forget to make are the diffrent catagories. The term "Hacker" gets thrown around like girls at a frat party. Its a word that people use for many reasons victimise, criminalize etc. However the term is improperly used very very often then the deffinition it was ment for. Of course this just drives propoganda and "doom saying" scaring people into thinking that boogy men are in more places than their kids closet. Of course it is true to a certain degree virus coders etc can fall into the boogy man catagory but thats not what this is about. "Real" hackers for lack of a better term are not intrested in the home user they are after the big companys. They dont care about naked pictures of your wife or the porn you hide from her. No the tools that get into your system are 11th grade script kiddies who think their 1337 because they went to your house disabled your AV went to ipchicken wrote it down went back home and wrote something up in the C# they learned that day in class. Their are diffirences and before people cant realy be scared be angry or even have a serious discussion. Until you know the diffirence.


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## ShiBDiB (Apr 11, 2010)

hackers hack because they find it fun, just like how mm finds it fun to somehow not be banned yet. 

I dont get what the big deal is, we can all agree that hackers and hacked consoles for the most part r an extreme minority that if say for some reason we didnt spend hours in a computer forum we would never even know existed.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

ShiBDiB said:


> hackers hack because they find it fun, just like how mm finds it fun to somehow not be banned yet.
> 
> I dont get what the big deal is, we can all agree that hackers and hacked consoles for the most part r an extreme minority that if say for some reason we didnt spend hours in a computer forum we would never even know existed.



wut? I hope you werent implying MM needed to be repremanded for something he said in this thread? Anyway the big deal is the controversy behind what they do. Who what when were why? the problem is it turns into a wtf chicken or the egg argument in about 3min.


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## AphexDreamer (Apr 11, 2010)

All I know is that I'm glad Sony removed linux. Its even better for European Owners cause they can get a refund of a good portions of their money back and still Keep the Other OS Feature. I personally haven't updated (can still play online though), plan on getting the Custom PS3 OS from GeoHot and hope the Hacking Continues. All PSP hacking has shown me is that Hombrew Apps own anything thing Sony Released for the PSP.  I want the same for the PS3


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> I think one of the important distinctions people forget to make are the diffrent catagories. The term "Hacker" gets thrown around like girls at a frat party. Its a word that people use for many reasons victimise, criminalize etc. However the term is improperly used very very often then the deffinition it was ment for. Of course this just drives propoganda and "doom saying" scaring people into thinking that boogy men are in more places than their kids closet. Of course it is true to a certain degree virus coders etc can fall into the boogy man catagory but thats not what this is about. "Real" hackers for lack of a better term are not intrested in the home user they are after the big companys. They dont care about naked pictures of your wife or the porn you hide from her. No the tools that get into your system are 11th grade script kiddies who think their 1337 because they went to your house disabled your AV went to ipchicken wrote it down went back home and wrote something up in the C# they learned that day in class. Their are diffirences and before people cant realy be scared be angry or even have a serious discussion. Until you know the diffirence.



I blame WarGames.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I blame WarGames.



/face palm o god the media.


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## Kreij (Apr 11, 2010)

Sol said:
			
		

> I hope you werent implying MM needed to be repremanded for something he said in this thread?



Other than the little off-topic jaunt about nationality, you've all behaved pretty well for a thread of this type (which usually causes flame wars). Please keep it that way 

I am not sure why hardware companies do not unlock their stuff. The gaming industry has proven over and over that allowing people to modify/add content greatly extends the life of a product. Just look at NWN. There are still new mods coming out.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 11, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Other than the little off-topic jaunt about nationality, you've all behaved pretty well for a thread of this type (which usually causes flame wars). Please keep it that way
> 
> I am not sure why hardware companies do not unlock there stuff. The gaming industry has proven over and over that allowing people to modify/add content greatly extends the life of a product. Just look at NWN. There are still new mods coming out.



nwn was a bad mention I love that game and this will quickly go south with further discussion of how awesome that game is.


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 11, 2010)

I like that even though some well known users here dislike hackers, i don't see them over in the Ubisoft thread denouncing all the guys efforts at breaking the DRM that makes gamers jump through hoops to play the game.


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## DigitalUK (Apr 11, 2010)

just looks like the usual corporate propaganda to me, crackers are god sends sometimes.
i cant imagine anyone who visits this forum has never used a crack or unoffical patch to get some bit of software or  hardware to work the way they wanted, hell ive had to use cracks before to get games to work that i paid for but didnt work out the box.
now hackers that do deliberate damage to systems is another story.. scum , its always been easier to destory than create.

also things like mod chips have always increased sales, ps1 wasnt doing that well on release until a little hex file appeared, same as the ps2 with the neo mods. wii, xbox and xbox 360 ,i think the only ones that didnt were the n64 great console but no way to backup on to cartridges.


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## Kreij (Apr 11, 2010)

I feel that people should speak with their wallets and not buy a game that is known to have  draconian DRM measures.
Cracking the DRM just gives the companies more justification to make it even worse.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Most EULA prohibit it.


International patent and copyright law overrules EULAs.


From Wikipedia:


> In the United States and many other countries, even if an artifact or process is protected by trade secrets, reverse-engineering the artifact or process is often lawful as long as it is obtained legitimately. Patents, on the other hand, need a public disclosure of an invention, and therefore, patented items do not necessarily have to be reverse-engineered to be studied. One common motivation of reverse engineers is to determine whether a competitor's product contains patent infringements or copyright infringements.



Copying != reverse engineering.  AMD wouldn't exist today if it weren't for reverse engineering Intel processors.





Kreij said:


> I feel that people should speak with their wallets and not buy a game that is known to have  draconian DRM measures.


That's generally what I do but I slipped up with Saints Row II which requires Steam for authentication. 

Right now, I am just buying the good old games from yesteryear that I missed.  The new games I buy are few and far between because the DRM is getting more and more repulsive.  For sure, I'll never buy a game that requires a constant internet connection.  I'm wary about buying any game that requires an "internet connection for authentication" as well.


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## KainXS (Apr 11, 2010)

It depends on what angle you look at if from, if your an artist or copyright holder then your probably looking at all hackers as if they are evil stealing bastards and by that right robin hood should have been murdered, but your wrong, all hackers aren't bad, if it were not for hackers computers wold not be the way they are now. If your looking at it from the viewpoint of someone like a person who bought a game though just to have a problem with the activation and you aren't able to play the game, hackers are awesome, also wrong. 

Theres a difference between hackers and crackers which alot of people in this thread don't seem to understand, hackers and crackers have never gotten along since crackers appeared on the scene, wonder why?


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## Kreij (Apr 11, 2010)

Ford said:
			
		

> That's generally what I do but I slipped up with Saints Row II which requires Steam for authentication.



You and me both, Ford. I used to look forward to getting games on release day. 
Now I never do that anymore. Too risky. I've been burned a few too many times.
Not only by DRM, but by crapware too.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

KainXS said:


> Theres a difference between hackers and crackers which alot of people in this thread don't seem to understand, hackers and crackers have never gotten along since crackers appeared on the scene, wonder why?


Hacker = skilled computer programmer.
Cracker = a hacker that breaks DRM software leaving the actual software intact (cracking the protection).
Pirate = those that distribute reproductions for profit (pirate copies of games, movies, Mona Lisas, Davids, etc.).

Being a pirate is a career as is being a hacker; cracking to a cracker is something they do for entertainment.


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## Kreij (Apr 11, 2010)

My take is a little different than Ford's ...

Hacker : Someone who attempts to gain entry to a system/network where they do not have permission, for whatever reason.
Cracker : Someone who modifies software in such a manner that it does not run as originally intended.
Pirate : Someone who downloads or reproduces software illegally.


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## erocker (Apr 11, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Hacker = skilled computer programmer.
> Cracker = a hacker that breaks DRM software leaving the actual software intact (cracking the protection).
> Pirate = those that distribute reproductions for profit (pirate copies of games, movies, Mona Lisas, Davids, etc.).
> 
> Being a pirate is a career as is being a hacker; cracking to a cracker is something they do for entertainment.





Kreij said:


> My take is a little different than Ford's ...
> 
> Hacker : Someone who attempts to gain entry to a system/network where they do not have permission, for whatever reason.
> Cracker : Someone who modifies software in such a manner that it does not run as originally intended.
> Pirate : Someone who downloads or reproduces software illegally.




Hacker: A skilled computer programmer who attempts to gain entry to a system/network where they do not have permission, for whatever reason.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

Technically, both definitions of hacker are correct:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hacker
1) a computer enthusiast. 
2) a microcomputer user who attempts to gain unauthorized access to proprietary computer systems.

A few hackers gave hacking a bad name. XD


Technically, what crackers do is in no way illegal because they are reverse engineering portions of the code of a legitimately purchased program (they need the original to observe how the authentication behaves).  The problems (pirates) only arise with distributing images of the disk (BINs, ISOs, etc.) which represent copyrighted content...


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## DrPepper (Apr 11, 2010)

Kreij said:


> I feel that people should speak with their wallets and not buy a game that is known to have  draconian DRM measures.
> Cracking the DRM just gives the companies more justification to make it even worse.



Problem is loads of people are stupid. Like the whole don't buy MW2 or L4D2 or in my case I will not buy Napoleon Total War because only then have they implemented the features they promised for empire total war into it.


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## Frick (Apr 11, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Problem is loads of people are stupid.



I prefer the term uninformed.

Anyway, hackers are good and bad. Like the PSP. That console is made cool by hackers. Then we have this entire pirate thing, but I think the masses are to blame on that one.


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## 3870x2 (Apr 11, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> This is the same old argument. As old as Nvidia vs. ATI and Intel vs. AMD. The horse is dead, dug up, resurrected, beat to death, buried, dug up...........



This horse had suffered a thousand deaths, and will suffer a thousand more before they are through.

i have to do it:


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## Fitseries3 (Apr 11, 2010)

you know... hacking is pretty easy once you learn how things work. 

some of us are quite good at it. 

its not a crime to be able to reverse engineer something is it?


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## Muhad (Apr 11, 2010)

Put hackers in jail!


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## Fitseries3 (Apr 11, 2010)

a hack can be anything really. any change of something to better help yourself. 

if we were talking about actual physical items here... what if you moded your car so that it gets better gas mileage. 

is it against the law that you "hacked" you car? it was in fact sold to you in one form but now you have hacked it to be at an advantage for you. 

against the law?

no. i dont think so.


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## Easy Rhino (Apr 11, 2010)

Fitseries3 said:


> you know... hacking is pretty easy once you learn how things work.
> 
> some of us are quite good at it.
> 
> its not a crime to be able to reverse engineer something is it?



what have you hacked?


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## dustyshiv (Apr 11, 2010)

I agree that hackers break the law.and its not right...but their technical skills at doing so must be appreciated. Just because a hacker was able to find a loophole in any software or console and exploits it, does he become the bad guy? If so the console or software must have been setup foolproof in the first place. For ex, I might be wrong...Sony invested a lot on their PS3 Bluray disc encryption and thus...at least in my place we dont get pirated PS3 discs.

For ex,

In the mall near my house, Virgin Megastore sells a PS2 game for 30USD. The same game, pirated sells in a shp opposite the mall for like 5 USD. I can see the choice people make. The small shp opp the mall makes more buck at the end of the day than Virgin!!

People are diff and make diff choices. To the guys who buy discs from the small shop, the hackers and rippers are heroes. To others they are criminals.

But in the end, hackers still break the law.


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## Velvet Wafer (Apr 11, 2010)

Fitseries3 said:


> you know... hacking is pretty easy once you learn how things work.
> 
> some of us are quite good at it.
> 
> its not a crime to be able to reverse engineer something is it?



in some countries, it is, as far as i know. has something to do with copyright,i believe, but im not wholly sure


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## Black Panther (Apr 11, 2010)

dustyshiv said:


> In the mall near my house, Virgin Megastore sells a PS2 game for 30USD. The same game, pirated sells in a shp opposite the mall for like 5 USD.



You mean in Dubai it is legal for a shop to sell pirated games?


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## Fitseries3 (Apr 11, 2010)

im not saying im a "hacker" but i, along with MANY MANY MANY of your TPU friends DO know how to hack and occasionally use it to circumvent and gain access/control for a purpose that is usually different than those who are really "breaking a law"


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 11, 2010)

Anyone who says they are a "hacker" in this thread is:

-Probably a script kiddie
-Retarded
-Going to lose all respect from me

Real "hackers" are people really good with computers, nothing more.  The media's interpretation of a hacker is what you guys are going off of.  This is not 1995, when that movie "Hackers" came out.  "Hacking..." ok that word sounds dumb now, is NOTHING LIKE THAT.  In fact, most of the people in our programming section could be considered hackers, they break code every day in some language to do something it is not meant to do.  Not illegal, just something the code was not meant to do.  That is a hacker.  Anyone who goes by the 1995 "Hackers" movie definition is a complete retard.

EXAMPLE:  Was browsing TPU, was on homepage, noticed the downloads section had sections, typed in a link in the url, got lucky, had admin access to all download files such as Photoshop, Windows, etc.  All the TPU stuff W1z did not want anyone to see.  Will not give link, but W1z has fixed (cause I told him guys!) it since cause I am not an EVIL EVIL person.  Do I consider this a hack?  No that is called LUCK, BOREDOM, and no skill was required whatsoever but BASIC LOGIC.  (I bet W1z does not remember this, but he might.)

Crackers:

What do they do?  They are pretty much guys with little to no skill and just figure out encryption on certain programs to gain access to them.  Very simple, I am capable of doing this (and you are too!), with my novice programming skills.  Anyone who can do basic math, and has a mind built for sound logic can do this.  An example of this would be someone writing a keygen or something.  

Pirates:

Plenty of these, I should not have to explain.


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## W1zzard (Apr 11, 2010)

DMCA (US law) said:
			
		

> (f) Reverse Engineering. -
> (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person *who has lawfully obtained *the right to use a copy of a computer program *may circumvent a technological measure *that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the *sole purpose *of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to *achieve interoperability *of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
> (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.
> (3) The *information acquired through the acts *permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), *may be made available to others *if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means *solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability *of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
> (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.



US says no to reverse engineering


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 11, 2010)

Black Panther said:


> You mean in Dubai it is legal for a shop to sell pirated games?



I have a friend from Pakistan at my university.  He tells me there all they have is pirated stuff, for PENNIES.  They have pirated books, games, EVERYTHING.  Everything there is a knockoff.  Everything is much cheaper.


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## Steevo (Apr 11, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Copying != reverse engineering.  AMD wouldn't exist today if it weren't for reverse engineering Intel processors.



Wrong. AMD built Intel processors with a license granted them, then they broke free of Intel and started making their own. Undoubtedly they used some of Intel's IP to make their CPU's, but the fact is they had the rights to it.

If you paid me to make a stick with certain specifications that you provided to me, and in our contract you didn't have a clause to prevent me from making my own stick with the same or altered modifications from yours.......well. I have the tools, knowledge, experience, to make a product. And you gave me the license.



PVTCaboose1337 said:


> I have a friend from Pakistan at my university.  He tells me there all they have is pirated stuff, for PENNIES.  They have pirated books, games, EVERYTHING.  Everything there is a knockoff.  Everything is much cheaper.





Yeah, a friend bought a copy of a unreleased game for .25 USD in Iraq. It had subtitles in another language, but the game was in English, no DRM, no problems.


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 11, 2010)

Steevo said:


> Wrong. AMD built Intel processors with a license granted them, then they broke free of Intel and started making their own. Undoubtedly they used some of Intel's IP to make their CPU's, but the fact is they had the rights to it.
> 
> If you paid me to make a stick with certain specifications that you provided to me, and in our contract you didn't have a clause to prevent me from making my own stick with the same or altered modifications from yours.......well. I have the tools, knowledge, experience, to make a product. And you gave me the license.



Ford is right:



> The company began as a producer of logic chips, then entered the RAM chip business in 1975. That same year, it introduced a *reverse-engineered* clone of the Intel 8080 microprocessor. During this period, AMD also designed and produced a series of bit-slice processor elements (Am2900, Am29116, Am293xx) which were used in various minicomputer designs.


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## Black Panther (Apr 11, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> I have a friend from Pakistan at my university.  He tells me there all they have is pirated stuff, for PENNIES.  They have pirated books, games, EVERYTHING.  Everything there is a knockoff.  Everything is much cheaper.



That's sad.
One has to bear in mind that the company which releases a game/movie/book supports itself through the profit made after release. Were that to happen in every country... to give an extreme example imagine Bethesda or any other game developer releasing Oblivion and barely selling a single game due to piracy. Do you think they'd have been capable of releasing Fallout3 then? Or would they have gone bust and quit? And who'd ever benefit from this?


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 11, 2010)

Black Panther said:


> That's sad.
> One has to bear in mind that the company which releases a game/movie/book supports itself through the profit made after release. Were that to happen in every country... to give an extreme example imagine Bethesda or any other game developer releasing Oblivion and barely selling a single game due to piracy. Do you think they'd have been capable of releasing Fallout3 then? Or would they have gone bust and quit? And who'd ever benefit from this?



Did you star in this video? 







For all those who don't know, the video pretty much predicts that if people pirate stuff the who computer industry will fail.  Sure failed.


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## Velvet Wafer (Apr 11, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> Did you star in this video?
> 
> http://www.giantrobotinvasion.com/images/2009/08/Dont-Copy-That-Floppy-Title.JPG
> 
> For all those who don't know, the video pretty much predicts that if people pirate stuff the who computer industry will fail.  Sure failed.



that vid made me want to copy a floppy...laugh:


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## Black Panther (Apr 11, 2010)

Lol that was funny.

What I meant was the millions of $$$ which don't go to the developers due to piracy end up deducted from the budgets of future games/movies/books etc. Note that it would be such future games etc which would be further pirated, hence quality would decrease even for the same pirates.


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## Altered (Apr 11, 2010)

Personally I dislike trying to play a game only to have "people really good with computers" butcher the game to have things in the game that were not intended/designed to be there. One reason I do not like buying games anymore. I bought the game to be played the way it was designed if I suck at it I can deal with it but apparently some cant and go pay for some one to provide them a cheat so they can feel big. On this topic I have to say they are POS. In other ways that have no effect on anyone else be it very few and far between cases I really could care less. The problem is it does usually effect someone else. *If* it is illegal, do the right thing simple as that. Although in this age it is getting hard to find people with good morals willing to do the right thing.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 11, 2010)




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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 11, 2010)

Black Panther said:


> Lol that was funny.
> 
> What I meant was the millions of $$$ which don't go to the developers due to piracy end up deducted from the budgets of future games/movies/books etc. Note that it would be such future games etc which would be further pirated, hence quality would decrease even for the same pirates.



I agree entirely.  We always think what a difference 1 person can make.  Well since everyone thinks that, we realize that $50 adds up fast when 50,000 pirate a game, 2.5 million dollars can easily make a game better or worse!  If piracy did not exist however, lots of countries would have trouble getting along without it:  

For instance Black Panther, lets take your country:






EDIT:  Oh also my screenshot is telling of my beliefs.  4 links are a little...  umm...  yeah.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

W1zzard said:


> US says no to reverse engineering


A cracker is creating interopterability by giving the DRM what it wants so that the application may execute without issues.  This is especially true of the new type (internet connection always required) of DRM where the crackers are making third party software that replicates what the DRM servers are doing, locally.

DMCA, therefore, protects the right of the reverse engineer (cracker).




Steevo said:


> Wrong. AMD built Intel processors with a license granted them, then they broke free of Intel and started making their own. Undoubtedly they used some of Intel's IP to make their CPU's, but the fact is they had the rights to it.


All AMD processors prior to the K5 were reverse engineered from Intel processors.  AMD has a license to the x86 instruction set but not how to implement it.  They had to reverse engineer Intel processors in order to produce a chip that was 100% Intel compatible.


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## W1zzard (Apr 11, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> A cracker is creating interopterability by giving the DRM what it wants so that the application may execute without issues.  This is especially true of the new type (internet connection always required) of DRM where the crackers are making third party software that replicates what the DRM servers are doing, locally.
> 
> DMCA, therefore, protects the right of the reverse engineer (cracker).



i doubt a court would agree

(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged. 

also there is a section about circumvention of protection measures


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## qubit (Apr 11, 2010)

*+1*



Kreij said:


> I feel that people should speak with their wallets and not buy a game that is known to have  draconian DRM measures.
> Cracking the DRM just gives the companies more justification to make it even worse.



That's pretty much what I do too. By buying the product, you just give them more money to keep screwing you over. I boycott all disc-based games now, because of the DRM and buy from Steam only and then only if they haven't jacked up the price, like they tend to do.

I made a mistake a while back: I bought Call of Duty 4 (the first one) on disc and forgot to check up on the DRM before purchase. Realised once I'd opened the box and started the installer, that it had securom crap on it. You know, the full fat version that messes with your optical drives.

So, pissed off, I installed it anyway, because I knew that copy of XP I was running was gonna get wiped anyway soon - too many glitches and problems already - and played the game in single player mode, which was awesome. However, after that, I wiped XP and didn't re-install it ever again.

Now I only buy games on Steam and then only if they have no third party DRM crap on them. I can just about live with Steam's DRM, but it still sucks the way you can't sell your games on, which should be illegal to force this restriction on you.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

W1zzard said:


> i doubt a court would agree
> 
> (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
> 
> also there is a section about circumvention of protection measures


The only reason why DMCA (and similar international laws) exist is because of the multi-billion industry which lobbied governments around the world to allow them to do the policing.


There were only two raids I can recall and both were on warez groups, not crackers, where they have the easy charge for illegal content distribution.  I can't name once where someone that only reverse engineered DRM out of an application got convicted.

In every case where a cracker/warez/etc. group was taken to court, they were never proven guilty--they just ran out of funds to keep fighting the organization(s) that dragged them to court which forced them into a plea agreement.


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## Fourstaff (Apr 11, 2010)

Back at home there was an article in the newspaper interviewing visitors what they like about my country. Quite a few said pirated warez. It was more than 90% the last time I checked.


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## W1zzard (Apr 11, 2010)

it doesnt matter why a law is law .. if it's law it applies to you whether you like it or not. if you get caught you are free to try to get around it using the justice system

which international laws are you talking about btw ? i dont see anything about the topic in the UN charter or the geneva convention which are the only examples of "international laws" i can think of

ah, i forgot the EU law stuff .. most is recommendation leaving the implementation to the individual member states


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2010)

Let me rephrase that: courts usually _interpret_ it in a way that the authors (lobby) did not intend.

WIPO, specifically the Copyright Treaty and Performances and Phonograms Treaty.  Most nations have adapted it to some degree or another.


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## Taz100420 (Apr 11, 2010)

The video stopped at this point when my internet connection went out lol. And I had to......

But I say what ppl do with the code to make it better for the ppl. is a good thing for some of us that appreciate what they are doing WITH their free time. But I agree whole-heartily that Hackers/Pirates are bad for society. It screws with everyone in every way financially, in terms of supply and demand. Taking one thing and making many things from it is always a hit for ppl especially in these times. Everyone wants the cheapest available. Legal or not. Everyone breaks the law, everyone, period. And please, no replys to this post saying "No I have never broken the law". Please.......


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Apr 11, 2010)

If you are hacking something that doesn’t belong to you then that’s a problem... unless hired by the owner to do so.

If you’re hacking something you own then there’s nothing wrong with that. EULA* and law be dammed in that instance. Right and wrong has never been as simple as a book of rules.

If you pass that knowledge on to others who own that same object, let’s say a console, then I believe you’re in the wrong again as it’s rather predictable it will be used for stealing. You’re not going to be smart enough to “hack it” and yet be too stupid to know how others will use that knowledge.

The only instance where I want to see games pirated is those that use sony’s rootkit. Consider it for a moment, 15 minutes to crack, so instantly failing at it’s intended purpose… plus costing the company money for having to license it from sony, hurting the consumers who don’t pirate because there’s no standardization so each game’s rootkit will fight each other over drive control… all motivating more people to steal the game. So the company has lost money on both ends of this and hurt the legitimate consumer while offering ZERO copy protection… yet they continue to include it. Any company headed by such utter morons deserves to be robbed and fail miserably.

*If you break a EULA you’ve got a good chance for fighting it, it’s not really law. For every precedent of one holding up in court there’s dozens where it failed.


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm sure this will be a thread that won't die easily.


Regarding DMCA - that's a real spotty subject.  It makes it so that one can't do this, or can't do that . . . but it doesn't overturn the older Copyright Acts (specifically of 1980), which gave the EU the specific right(s) to make backups of their software and "digital media."  Actually, it further extends some of the protections and rights of the EU that were outlined in earlier acts, making it legal for the EU to make backup copies of their media, as long as that copy is "_destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful_."

Even more specifically regardin the older CA:



> § 117. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs
> (a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. — Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
> 
> (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or
> ...



Which pretty much gives the EU full right to copy, crack, break or circumvent any form of copy protection that a publisher, developer or distributor slaps on a form of digital media . . . *as long as said copy is only to be used for archival and backup purposes.*

If you crack any software and distribute it - it's illegal.

If you break any form of copy protection and distribute it - it's illegal.

If you distribute any means to break copy protection - it's illegal.

Problem being is that software and media vendors try to get around this by saying that their media is "licensed, not sold," which would make any form of backup illegal (as it would be a licensed software, as the rights governing it haven't been sold).  But, our court systems have tended to view it otherwise in the past, stating that no rule "_distinguishes mere licenses from sales...The label placed on a transaction is not determinative_."

So, even if you do make copies or your media, and you somehow get busted, it may or may not be legal if it were ever to go to court . . . but, if you've never distributed any of these copies, and could prove that they've been solely for archival purposes and you've stayed within the boundaries of Sect.117, you'd probably be alright.


Now, I have no idea about any CA of other countries, I'm going by what only applies within the US.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> So, even if you do make copies or your media, and you somehow get busted, it may or may not be legal if it were ever to go to court . . . but, if you've never distributed any of these copies, and could prove that they've been solely for archival purposes and you've stayed within the boundaries of Sect.117, you'd probably be alright.


Burden of proof lands on those pressing charges.  If they can't prove you did illegally distribute copyrighted material, they have no case against you.


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Burden of proof lands on those pressing charges.  If they can't prove you did illegally distribute copyrighted material, they have no case against you.



Agreed.

But, one of the biggest problems within the past 10 years has more to do with corps. going after small-time users for downloading illegal material . . .

. . . which, coincidentally, isn't something exactly covered under the DMCA or any other copyright act . . . it instead falls under local, state or federal larceny statutes.

But, they try to tie it back in with the "intent to distribute" charge . . . which is (although different) almost as bad as actual illegal distribution.  They mearly assume that if one has enough illegal or pirated material on-hand, then you must intend to distribute it at some point . . .


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## Aceman.au (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> They break the law. What is "good" in your eyes is still illegal. If you do something against the law for good you do NOT do it for notoriety which is exactly what Hackers do.
> 
> "Hey look what I can do!!! Ain't I a hero?!" No your a hoodlum now GTFO.



You seem to have something against hackers...

Imo hackers are the innovators...

Emulators has recently enabled me to play games that my broken PS1's couldnt... A hacker (Who will not be named) showed me premium generators, katz, thepiratebay etc.

A CD costs what? 99c to make? yet they charge us like 90 bucks for new games and movies... Its riduculous. Sure you gotta pay for the content, but the amount is rediculous.

Piracy, hacking, illegal content.... Cannot/will not be stopped as long as profits are a motivation behind everything and these websites are avaliable. (Even if you shut them down, new ones will appear)


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 12, 2010)

its pretty much black hat and whitehat.  Those who are destructive/criminalistic are the ones that fall under the black-hat category (Phisers/Pharmers, keyloggers, ID thieves, Terrorists/Rogue Nations).

I am fairly weary of what I download anymore as you don't know if that one program or picture has a parasite in it (attached program that is not detected initially or executes a code to download another app immediately).

I also swear it's the Antivirus companies that release virus and worms anymore to keep people buying their products.

Windows is the most widely used OS- thus most popular- so that means it will be targeted the most for hacks. Mac and Linux are not as common, Mac Has had several major exploits in the past.  MS at least tries to patch up their stuff monthly and when emergent stuff occurs they release a patch within a few days of the issues.

Thats what you call tweaking/tuning.  Is it illegal for me to tune my os to a certain config? Say kill services, make certain commands do other tasks etc?



Fitseries3 said:


> a hack can be anything really. any change of something to better help yourself.
> 
> if we were talking about actual physical items here... what if you moded your car so that it gets better gas mileage.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

l33tGaMeR said:


> You seem to have something against hackers...
> 
> Imo hackers are the innovators...
> 
> ...



You are a thief if you believe that.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You are a thief if you believe that.



l33tgamer- its not the disk itself that makes the cost rise it's the media on the disk.  Also where the fuck do you have to pay 90USD for games!? I think the only game that costs that is Rock band or guitar hero with the specialized controllers.  Otherwise Games are 60 USD for PS3 (Blue Ray) 50 for XB and Wii, 30 for DS games.


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## Aceman.au (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You are a thief if you believe that.



I get most of the possibly pirated movies I have from my friends... I recently brought, WIndows 7, Transformers 1 and 2 on Bluray, 2012 on Bluray... So yeah I do occasionally spend money on movies... But the prices are still silly.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 12, 2010)

l33tGaMeR said:


> I get most of the possibly pirated movies I have from my friends... I recently brought, WIndows 7, Transformers 1 and 2 on Bluray, 2012 on Bluray... So yeah I do occasionally spend money on movies... But the prices are still silly.



You didn't have to buy them on Blue Ray, You could of saved money and gotten the DVDs. If I'm not mistaken most BD players Upconvert older medium. DVDs are the common thing hence why prices are less.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

l33tGaMeR said:


> I get most of the possibly pirated movies I have from my friends... I recently brought, WIndows 7, Transformers 1 and 2 on Bluray, 2012 on Bluray... So yeah I do occasionally spend money on movies... But the prices are still silly.



Off topic how much did you spend on your pre-built?


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## Aceman.au (Apr 12, 2010)

Ive seen the DvD versions and Ive found Bluray is much better quality... Not to mentions Ive brought, COD4, BF2, CODMW2, Crysis, LOTRBFME1+2 and much much more legitimately...


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## Aceman.au (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Off topic how much did you spend on your pre-built?



What do you mean?


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 12, 2010)

l33tGaMeR said:


> Ive seen the DvD versions and Ive found Bluray is much better quality... Not to mentions Ive brought, COD4, BF2, CODMW2, Crysis, LOTRBFME1+2 and much much more legitimately...



I probably am incriminating myself for saying this but Ive downloaded maybe 1 complete game in the past and that was to replace a scratched disk. I kind of figured if I already own the game per se why should I have to buy it again.  Its just like ROMs for Emulation the rules are do not download unless if you own the game.

You know what I say about the BD thing, It was the same exact deal with DVD over VHS, Quality was higher, well its fact You could cram more 1/0s onto a disk where as you would need a mile of VHS tape to match the quality. I found the advantage of DVDs being the Size and weight, Disadvantage is Durability and price at the time they weren't common.  Only thing I seen that was special with BDs maybe was the Menu system being a little more in depth over a DVDs menu system.

Also for BD to look any better than DVD you need a HDTV to run it. Which All HDTV is just a Higher amt of Pixels on the Screen vs a CRT. Shoot I already had HD capability back in early 2000s with this Monitor. Know why? The Pixel Density is higher than it is on the CRT. Most CRTs run at 640x480 or 1024x768.  People don't even know what 1080p means. TBH I'd rather have a 5:4 or 16:10 Aspect Ratio over a 16:9.  Most TV programming appears distorted still on HDTVs (wider than it should be as compared to 4:3).  Also I can't stand letterbox format movies one bit, Put the Picture on the Entire Screen like a Projector Does.


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## tacgnol (Apr 12, 2010)

It's not a very good article, or very interesting either. It keeps on going on about hackers and piracy but really hacking has very little to do with piracy. The reversing/cracking scene is what enables the continued release of pirate software.

Cracking copy protection is not hacking, it's cracking. 

Anyway, that said obviously it's bad if you hack to do something like fraud, obviously good and bad things have come about as a direct or indirect result of hacking, cracking, etc. It's not that clear cut so it really depends on exactly what is done in each case.


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## Steevo (Apr 12, 2010)

I was wrong, but Intel did grant a patent right to AMD as a second source for processors.

Wasn't around in the 70's......


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## v12dock (Apr 12, 2010)

I tired buying tv episodes off iTunes once but after learning that I could only download them once I quit


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## Deleted member 67555 (Apr 12, 2010)

The more companies fight this the more people they will have to fight in the end the end consumer is getting screwed and very few of them are going to see the hackers as the bad guys Specially when games are coming out with Cheaper features on older engines at higher prices (Infinity Ward) and stripped of the Features that consumers want..

I personally do not want DRM's on my PC at all
wait what do I mean..

I mean I don't want DRM's at ALL
 att all

and I do not see any theft when any consumer rids themselves of them..
people want products and not (for all intents and purposes) Damages to there stuff when they buy a game


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

jmcslob said:


> The more companies fight this the more people they will have to fight in the end the end consumer is getting screwed and very few of them are going to see the hackers as the bad guys Specially when games are coming out with Cheaper features on older engines at higher prices (Infinity Ward) and stripped of the Features that consumers want..
> 
> I personally do not want DRM's on my PC at all
> wait what do I mean..
> ...





What's the big deal over DRMs?

I mean, seriously, everyone gets uber 1337 when it comes to DRMs, and pronouncing them as one of the coming signs of the apocalypse.

Personally, I've never had any major issues with them, and most people I know have never had issues, either.  Sure, they can be annoying at times (especially if you don't take TLC of your disks), but they serve their function perfectly . . . they keep pirates from immediately cracking the software, which takes longer for bootlegs to start circulating.  Add in the fact that a lot of game developers have gotten into a habit of patching any disk-checker out of the game, usually at least a year after initial release, it's ensuring their financial stability - especially with "hot" titles.

When it comes to small-time developers, I'd much rather such protections be in place . . . they need the income from the release for further development and to continue to grow.  I'm a major supporter of small-time game developers, they tend to have some of the biggest innovations and ambitious projects.  Sadly, they don't tend to last as long, either, and the rapid growth in piracy over the last 10 years really doesn't help.

Anyhow, most arguments regarding DRMs is plain nonsense anyhow, and isn't really backed up by anything substantial.

If you haven't checked it out yet, there's an excellent and extremelly well researched read regarding DRMs here: http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_8.html


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## Solaris17 (Apr 12, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> What's the big deal over DRMs?
> 
> I mean, seriously, everyone gets uber 1337 when it comes to DRMs, and pronouncing them as one of the coming signs of the apocalypse.
> 
> ...



DRM's sucks for people like me who just up and format and then relize i cant get that "activation" back and they cant "reset" it. I just think its kinda dumb that I need to sit their with a brand new mobo sitting next to me and instead of installing it and watching my e-peen grow I need to sit their and chain smoke for an hour and uninstall and "deactivate" my games. That got old fast...even faster when i ran out of ciggs.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 12, 2010)

DRM does cause compatibility issues.


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> DRM's sucks for people like me who just up and format and then relize i cant get that "activation" back and they cant "reset" it. I just think its kinda dumb that I need to sit their with a brand new mobo sitting next to me and instead of installing it and watching my e-peen grow I need to sit their and chain smoke for an hour and uninstall and "deactivate" my games. That got old fast...even faster when i ran out of ciggs.



Do you use Steam or some other form of digital distro?

Most activations, though, only become overly picky when a game is installed off a specific disk too often.  I've never had to "deactivate" any of my games, the REG key is tied to the disk and the specific DRM instance itself.  As long as the REG key is good, and the disk in the drive matches up, it all comes together.




eidairaman1 said:


> DRM does cause compatibility issues.



I realize it does occasionally happen, but it's not a _common_ occurance, is what I meant.

There's occasional compatibility problems with any form of low-level software or app - be it DRM, OS, hardware drivers, etc.  It'd be foolish to assume that DRMs would be "perfect little angels" . . . which is what most people seem to want them to be.


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## Easy Rhino (Apr 12, 2010)

this is turning into the ugly truth about TPUers...


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## Solaris17 (Apr 12, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> this is turning into the ugly truth about TPUers...



ya you need skin cream bad bro that avvy is rough



imperialreign said:


> Do you use Steam or some other form of digital distro?
> 
> Most activations, though, only become overly picky when a game is installed off a specific disk too often.  I've never had to "deactivate" any of my games, the REG key is tied to the disk and the specific DRM instance itself.  As long as the REG key is good, and the disk in the drive matches up, it all comes together.



steam for some games. Not to big on steam though I like having hard copies. I do however install my games to a seperate drive. And my drive letters change all the time.


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> this is turning into the ugly truth about TPUers...



I see you starting to get a bit worried TPU might be turning into the next piratebay . . .


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## Deleted member 67555 (Apr 12, 2010)

Here is a good reason I don't like them 
I replaced a Video card i did not change anything else since I got it and for some reason I've installed it 3 times But if I call them and explain it they will give me 1 more Activation 
that is in no way cool by me I paid for it i have not installed more than once but i got to call them and proclaim it was just a hardware upgrade and I'm not a thief no thank you


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

They need to put another warning label on their packaging:
_The DRM in this application may drive you to piracy._




Easy Rhino said:


> this is turning into the ugly truth about TPUers...


PC gamers are starting to get pissed off about all this DRM BS, especially this latest fiasco by EA (Command & Conquer 4) and Ubisoft (Silent Hunter 5, Assassin's Creed 2).  TPU isn't the only place where gamers are voicing their annoyance.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 12, 2010)

DRM Pushes More users to Pirated games because the DRM stuff is removed in Pirated software. DRM causes nothing but headaches especially when installing on a Fresh machine after a format, and It still causes Problems. DRM is like a Rootkit.


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

EA is pretty gestapo with their titles - I'll definitely give you that.  But, again, if it happened after installing a new video card, it sounds like a low-level application conflict (which, there's not much one can do about).


But, it brings up one bad aspect of DRMs - pirates and users with pirated copies using legit activation keys.  It screws those who have legitimately purchased the title.


You might want to look into the specific DRM itself - a lot of the companies offer a means of "reseting" or removing the activation, as long as you're current install is legit.  I had to go through those hoops with one title recently (I want to say it was CoD:WaW, but I don't remember), and it was a PITA, but no problems at all now.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

EA doesn't.  All they offer is these rather large applications (5.5-5.8 MiB) which will deauthorize the current install so that you can authorize it one more time.  If you already formatted or did something that caused the authorization count to increment, you're out of luck.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Apr 12, 2010)

Ok I will admit EA's DRMs in specific are what I have a problem with...and not just that example 
EA's DM's DRM has played Havoc on non related programs in which I had to track down a patch to deal with (Legit patch) 

i don't like having to do that..and it's not like these drm's are actually doing anything next to increasing the price of Software due to the added expense of DRM production (obviously if they were effective Piracy rates would be going in the opposite direction)
I would give further explanation but I've already been given a friendly reminder on the Forum rules a few days ago on another post

oh wait I forgot about UbiSoft's ridiculous DRM's as well i have had more than a few problems with those as well


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> EA doesn't.  All they offer is these rather large applications (7+ MiB) which will deactivate the current install so that you can activate it one more time.  If you already formatted or did something that caused the activation count to increment, you're out of luck.



I see . . .

So, that sounds more like some communisitic control tendancies on the part of the publisher . . . not that of a 3rd-party DRM.

. . . and that's one thing I do have a problem with.  I don't believe the publisher should have full, absolute control over the software like that.  Leave the DRM to the 3rd-party developers who've managed to both make their apps secure, and operate in a fair and user-friendly way . . . as I pointed out, the 3rd-party DRM developers tend to have some means of deactivating or reseting the DRM as long as you have a legit copy . . . a publisher (such as, and especially, EA) would never offer such.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

This authorization crap (EA and Ubisoft) is a function of SecuROM 7, a Sony DADC product (aka, third party).

As for that last paragraph, notice where all the DRM is focused (Windows) and who is authoring 90%+ of the current DRM in use (Sony).  Think of the big dog they have in the gaming race (PlayStation 3).  It is in Sony's best interest to create draconian DRM to drive people away from Windows gaming to PS3.  A shame Ubisoft and EA don't realize this.

Tages and Star-Force are even more brutal.  The enemy here is the publishers: they are the ones deciding to use DRM, they are the ones to tell consumers that, if the DRM acts up, you're out of luck, they're the ones paying for the DRM, and they are the ones ignoring all the complaints directed at DRM.  Tages, Star-Force, and Sony DADC are just making a product and selling it.  Sony DADC obviously has a conflict of interest going on there but all forms of DRM conflict with the consumer's right to use what they purchased (guilty until proven innocent).

The only developer I know of to consistently free their games of DRM (via patch) is Egosoft in cooperation with Deep Silver--the only publisher with some common sense.  Every publisher will openly admit that their titles only make real money in the first 6 months.  After that period is when Deep Silver/Egosoft releases a patch which instantly removes all DRM related issues and insures the DRM will never prevent the game from running in the future.  Most publishers, for whatever reason, deem it unnecessary to offer this common courtesy to those interested in their product.  Problems created by the DRM rear their ugly head five years later and you are just out of luck because the publisher has intentionally forgotten they ever even published that title.  For example, try to find anything on EA that's useful in regards to SimCity 3000 or James Bond 007: Nightfire.  Don't bother, EA has forgotten about those titles and it is in your best interest if you do too. :/


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## imperialreign (Apr 12, 2010)

. . . and that's one of the things _I've_ had a problem with, regarding the DMCA.

It extended the publisher's rights to protect their media, while infringing upon the EU rights to backup and archive their bought media.

It start to get into a lot of grey area from there - if you download an app to crack the DRM (or bypass it) so you can make a backup copy, are you reallt doing anything illegal?  Going by the Sect117 amendments, you're not, so long as those copies aren't being distributed.  What you're downloading is a _tool_, not a complete pirated version.

This is where we start getting into things like whether a "fixed" .exe is illegal or not . . . it's not a pirated copy of the game, instead merely a means of bypassing the DRM . . . a "tool" in a sense.

Personally, I don't have a problem with such "cracks," as it's (IMHO) a means for the EU to protect _their_ outlined rights . . . as long as one isn't doing anything else illegal (i.e. downloading or distributing full bootlegged versions), I personally view it as acceptable (and one of the only "questionable" practices I view as such, too) . . . although, the government probably wouldn't think so.

Sadly, in the US, the rights of corporations always come before those of the general public.





FordGT90Concept said:


> This authorization crap (EA and Ubisoft) is a function of SecuROM 7, a Sony DADC product (aka, third party).
> 
> As for that last paragraph, notice where all the DRM is focused (Windows) and who is authoring 90%+ of the current DRM in use (Sony).  Think of the big dog they have in the gaming race (PlayStation 3).  It is in Sony's best interest to create draconian DRM to drive people away from Windows gaming to PS3.  A shame Ubisoft and EA don't realize this.
> 
> Tages and Star-Force are even more brutal.  The enemy here is the publishers: they are the ones deciding to use DRM, they are the ones to tell consumers that, if the DRM acts up, you're out of luck, they're the ones paying for the DRM, and they are the ones ignoring all the complaints directed at DRM.  Tages, Star-Force, and Sony DADC are just making a product and selling it.  Sony DADC obviously has a conflict of interest going on there but all forms of DRM conflict with the consumer's right to use what they purchased (guilty until proven innocent).



Ties in with what I just mentioned about the DMCA extending publisher's rights while infringing on the EU's.



> The only developer I know of to consistently free their games of DRM (via patch) is Egosoft in cooperation with Deep Silver--the only publisher with some common sense.



Some others do, too.  ID had worked out with Activision to patch out DRM after so long (Activision seems to go on a "per-developer" basis, THQ is good about removing DRM with a games "final" patch as well . . . Eidos does sometimes, it kinda depends on the title.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Apr 12, 2010)

i hate drm period  securom is a rootkit just like sonys previous music drm from the early 2000s even when u uninstall a game securom remains. Its insidious and its only getting worse and as far as im concerned  imperial reign my internet drops out at least 6-10 times per day do to faulty outsourced wiring job by my cable company, and since there the only company in my region i cant do anything about it. Whats this have to do with anything you ask? just about every game coming out now i can no longer play the way i wish as i get kicked off the game. Namely my cousin being nice purchased Assassins Creed 2 for me after getting booted 20+ times in the course of a day when i tried to play i gave up and told him of the issue and he had a great idea we took said disk out back and blasted it to pieces with buckshot. Im sorry you can defend DRM all you want it fails it offers devs security on releases? lol most games are cracked and avaible before you can even buy the damn things in a store or get it from steam. So that argument is just pointless and sure the new drm works. but as it stands these new titles i simply cant play so i have a machine that with all peripherals ive sunk some $3000 into and the games that might put my hardware to use i cant friggin play legit. so they can take DRM and blow it out there arse. you realize that the cost to put DRM on the disks negate anything it actually stops profit margins with no drm vs with drm are the same in some cases paying for the DRM would hurt profits more. I believe stardock touched upon that a few times.

new titles drm = internet drops for a moment im kicked while games like badcompany2 i just get a lag spike nothing major.  The way i see it the new drm systems being employed means i just wont be buying PC games there actually driving me to use a console but i wont pay for games on that platform either just out of spite ill borrow the games or ill use gamefly


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> Ties in with what I just mentioned about the DMCA extending publisher's rights while infringing on the EU's.


Yes, DMCA is a HUGE problem.  That bill should have never happened and I will never forgive Joe Biden (current Vice President, major proponent to the bill) for it.




imperialreign said:


> Some others do, too.  ID had worked out with Activision to patch out DRM after so long, THQ is good about removing DRM with a games "final" patch as well . . . Eidos does sometimes, it kinda depends on the title.


Kudos to them.  Any publisher with the common sense to patch DRM out deserves a pat on the back.  Those with the balls to release their software with no DRM deserve a place in heaven (at least their name on a plaque somewhere).


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that never had an issue with DRM.


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## Black Panther (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that never had an issue with DRM.



Me too. It was said that the DRM of Spore and Sims was particularly iffy, but it caused no problems in my case.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

I think DRM's are the result of naive people who are scared of being robbed by an invisible thief. 

Now we all know the thieves are real. Hell I can name a few on this forum. But Ill admit DRM will do nothing to stop them from stealing. At the same time DRM will stop job-six pack from giving a copy to all his friends down at the plant.


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I guess I'm one of the lucky ones that never had an issue with DRM.



Me neither. Although I don't feel why I should have to pay for a game, get home, load it all up and then be told that I have to do this that and another before I can actually play it. It stinks that they make gamers jump through hoops and it is the practise that is alienating gamers to a point where they just don't care any more.

I would actually pay £5 more for the same game that had little to NO DRM on it just so I can play without having to jump through flaming hoops first.


These "hackers", "crackers" or whatever you want to call them are just people who like to get around these DRMs for something to do, and for bragging rights. The market that these cracks can be applied to IS growing because gamers in general have had enough. They paid for the game and want to be able to play it on their terms. It's not going to be a great leap from applying a crack to game that has been paid for, and then to just downloading the game for free with crack included.

Developers should make the games easier to obtain, easier to install, easier to play (that is no connected to the internet at all times, not the game play), and then they would likely see an increase in sales.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

WhiteLotus said:


> Me neither. Although I don't feel why I should have to pay for a game, get home, load it all up and then be told that I have to do this that and another before I can actually play it. It stinks that they make gamers jump through hoops and it is the practise that is alienating gamers to a point where they just don't care any more.
> 
> I would actually pay £5 more for the same game that had little to NO DRM on it just so I can play without having to jump through flaming hoops first.
> 
> ...



WTF? How much easier can Steam be?! Click. Install. Done.


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## WhiteLotus (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> WTF? How much easier can Steam be?! Click. Install. Done.



Which is why I LOVE steam. 

My point is that certain games have made the people play say enough is enough, i'm not paying money for it, but i'm not going to miss out on playing it. And thus you get more pirating.

I wanted to play Assassins creed 2 (although I have heard it to be really bad I still want to play it) but i'm not going to because the internet connection that I have (yay university halls) is really bad. I'm just not playing the game because I don't feel as if I SHOULD be connected to the internet. I don't want to be connected to the internet to play it. So I am not playing it, I still want to but I'm not. Although it really isn't that hard to see why some people would find "other means" of playing a game they want to play.

EDIT: oh and my internet is really that bad, 50 kbs down. It takes me two (2) days to download a game off steam.


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## DaMulta (Apr 12, 2010)

Ps3 unhacked for what 3 years? Games are still 60USD WITHOUT PIRACY, but they still bitch saying that is why they are high priced......I guess there is a reason why people like me buy games USED at Gamestop

What a load of shit, and I guess 360 games should be more about 120USD to make it all fair. Also WHY do I have to fight DRM at all on ANY SYSTEM? If I'm paying a SUPER HIGH COST, because of hackers I think I should be given the honor of not fucking with DRM seeing I PAYED the fee to cover pirates. Yet, FUCK NO, paying the cost does not get you any closer to not having to be online to install a single player game........


Really they should sell games at 10USD new, because EVERYONE would buy a copy. They would not have too worry about selling a disc to people that buy a game every few months.


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## Triprift (Apr 12, 2010)

The funny part is D they would most likely still make a profit selling them at 10us sad.


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## Fourstaff (Apr 12, 2010)

I have a problem with PC games nowadays. *Plays GOW III, finishes it, passes it to my friend*, *Plays L4D, gets bored, oh wait! cannot pass to a friend *


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## tacgnol (Apr 12, 2010)

DaMulta said:


> Really they should sell games at 10USD new, because EVERYONE would buy a copy. They would not have too worry about selling a disc to people that buy a game every few months.



They're overpriced for sure. With online payment/delivery you would think the cost of actually distributing games is going down. Consider for example that MW2 sold something like 12 million units by the end of 2009, somebody is making some serious cash. 

Software companies do deserve support, in return though they should charge slightly more realistic prices for their products and not bog down legitimate users with intrusive anti-piracy measures that don't even work. About the only thing that does work is keys for online play, keep that and scrap the rest.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> At the same time DRM will stop job-six pack from giving a copy to all his friends down at the plant.


What makes you think "job-six pack" isn't doing that right now?  You don't have to have an engineering degree to figure out how to make it work.




TheMailMan78 said:


> WTF? How much easier can Steam be?! Click. Install. Done.


a) Only works if Steam works on some titles.
b) Their protection is weak.  About half of the new cracked games are simply the result of breaking steams weak compression/decryption algorithms that Steam is unlikely to update.
c) Steam requires and Internet connection to activate.
d) Downloading games takes forever and it repeats due to not having the games on a physical medium.
e) All you got is a serial number and virtually no right to complain if something goes wrong (like someone steals your Steam account).  You can lose potentially hundreds of dollars worth of games in mere seconds.
f) Valve will terminate your service for whatever and whenever they deem "necessary."
g) Always requires third-party software to be installed on the system.

Need I continue?  The only difference between Steam and SecuROM 7 is that Steam has a face and SecuROM 7 does not.  They both represent the same thing (corporations hijacking your computer) so I hate them both.




DaMulta said:


> Really they should sell games at 10USD new, because EVERYONE would buy a copy. They would not have too worry about selling a disc to people that buy a game every few months.


My sister buys craploads of <$10 games for her kids.  I doubt any of them have protection beyond checking the CD drive letters for a disk.  I wonder how much the end user pays that is going straight to DRM costs on a $50 title.


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## EastCoasthandle (Apr 12, 2010)

Is there a way to completely remove DRM yet?


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 12, 2010)

Even though Steam is apparently super DRM ridden I have never had trouble with it.  In fact that is how I get ALL my new games.  I don't have to go to the store to buy them, no shipping or gas cost, $5 off for pre-order, the "disks" never break (unless Steam does), and I can download them anywhere in the world!  The benefits greatly outweigh the negatives you listed Ford.


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## kid41212003 (Apr 12, 2010)

You mean in Assassins Creed 2?


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> Even though Steam is apparently super DRM ridden I have never had trouble with it.  In fact that is how I get ALL my new games.  I don't have to go to the store to buy them, no shipping or gas cost, $5 off for pre-order, the "disks" never break (unless Steam does), and I can download them anywhere in the world!  The benefits greatly outweigh the negatives you listed Ford.


Amazon you can get orders over $25 shipped for free with pre-order price guarentee (you get the lowest price Amazon was asking for between preorder and ship date).

I've never had a disk break (unless I did so intentionally) and I have 4x200 + 2x40 disk binders worth of disks.  I also never lost a disk.

I can install without an Internet connection and do it five plus times faster than you (excluding download time for you)!


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## LiveOrDie (Apr 12, 2010)

poo


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## kid41212003 (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Amazon you can get orders over $25 shipped for free with pre-order price guarentee (you get the lowest price Amazon was asking for between preorder and ship date).
> 
> I've never had a disk break (unless I did so intentionally) and I have 4x200 + 2x40 disk binders worth of disks.  I also never lost a disk.
> 
> I can install without an Internet connection and do it five plus times faster than you (excluding download time for you)!



I would do the same If i were neat and careful as you. I assume most of us here, are not...


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Amazon you can get orders over $25 shipped for free.
> 
> I've never had a disk break (unless I did so intentionally) and I have 4x200 + 2x40 disk binders worth of disks.  I also never lost a disk.
> 
> I can install without an Internet connection and do it five times faster than you!



I have to say you must live in a nice climate!  

-Almost ALL of of my 5.25" disks have gone bad, likely cause of humidity.  The only ones remaining are the ones I have stored inside ammo cans, with lots of desiccant.  

-I have had 3 of maybe ~500 CD's I have go bad.  Not to scratches, just GO BAD, I have no idea why.  

Yes your CD's are faster than my internet, then again, CD drives are going to be extinct IMO in the next 10 years.  Games should come on USB drives.  

The problem we have is permanent storage.  I would really like to play retro games when I am much older.  CD's just DO NOT LAST past 20 years.  All my disks are backed up to hard drives just for that purpose.


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## digibucc (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I can install without an Internet connection and do it five plus times faster than you (excluding download time for you)!



so excluding download time, you can install a game from an optical disk faster than steam can decrypt the same files? or faster than you can install from a D2D zip?  if you are excluding download time you are starting your clock from the moment the file is DONE downloading vs the moment you put the disc in the drive. I think you meant including download time, as installing off the HDD will always be faster than an optical drive. (provided you have a decent HDD less than a decade old)

and, there is no issue in regards to backing up game files.  you can burn them to a disk or copy them to a hard drive, and there is your backup.  i rarely re-download a game after the first download, as i just keep them installed.  if i really didn't want to download or keep it installed, i'd just burn it to a disk through steam, as they make it very easy. D2d is just a zip, even easier.


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 12, 2010)

digibucc said:


> so excluding download time, you can install a game from an optical disk faster than steam can decrypt the same files? or faster than you can install from a D2D zip? I think you meant including download time.



He meant including download time.  Install via a ISO or whatever is MUCH faster than on disk.


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## EastCoasthandle (Apr 12, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> Even though Steam is apparently super DRM ridden I have never had trouble with it.  In fact that is how I get ALL my new games.  I don't have to go to the store to buy them, no shipping or gas cost, $5 off for pre-order, the "disks" never break (unless Steam does), and I can download them anywhere in the world!  The benefits greatly outweigh the negatives you listed Ford.



Um, no.  Specially since I've seen games go on sale (or simply at a reduced price) more often for the physical media then I do with downloads. Specially when they've been out for a while.

Napoleon Total War, Newegg (free shipping), $37
Napoleon Total War, Steam, $40

Bad Company 2, Newegg, $47 (free shipping)
Bad Company 2, Steam $50

etc, etc.  It's odd that you've not notice this.  Perhaps you simply prefer to "download it" at "any cost".   But as mentioned there are few valid reasons why downloading games are not as good as you think, regardless if you care about them or not.


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 12, 2010)

EastCoasthandle said:


> Um, no.  Specially since I've seen games go on sale more often for the physical media then I do with downloads. Specially when they've been out for a while.
> 
> Napoleon Total War, Newegg (free shipping), $37
> Napoleon Total War, Steam, $40
> ...



Steam has free weekend once in a while, (like this weekend for COD and half price too!), just check the specials.  Usually the games are 33% off.  Pretty darn good!


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## kid41212003 (Apr 12, 2010)

When they are out for awhile, and the prices go down, it's normal thing.

But to get a brand new game at half or 33% off when it's still new is the digital only thing.


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## EastCoasthandle (Apr 12, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> Steam has free weekend once in a while, (like this weekend for COD and half price too!), just check the specials.  Usually the games are 33% off.  Pretty darn good!



Doesn't mean much if I'm not looking for a COD game.  What if I wand BC2 or other games?  Do I have to keep my fingers crossed hoping that one day Steam will offer a sale?  Or perhaps I can get it elsewhere at a cheaper price.  The only downside is that I have to wait a few days to get it.  I'm not knocking you if you simply want to download it at "any cost".  But there are others out there who may not agree with that.  I'm simply pointing out why.





kid41212003 said:


> When they are out for awhile, and the prices go down, it's normal thing.
> 
> But to get a brand new game at half or 33% off when it's still new is the digital only thing.


That's a far cry from the example I provided that is actually available now vs the wishful thinking of a sale price of a game I may actually want to own.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

PVTCaboose1337 said:


> I have to say you must live in a nice climate!
> 
> -Almost ALL of of my 5.25" disks have gone bad, likely cause of humidity.  The only ones remaining are the ones I have stored inside ammo cans, with lots of desiccant.
> 
> ...


It is around 80% humidity here for a good 1/4 of the year and there is a dehumidifier right outside my door.  5.25" floppies are notorious for their poor reliability which is why the 3.5" came about.  I copied the data off a damn close to 20 year old 3.5" floppy a few months ago without problems.

I've never had a disk go bad yet.

Optical disks and drives aren't going anywhere for a long time.  Flash memory is very expensive by comperison for the simple fact that a laser beam is smaller than a transistor.  The costs of flash are dependant upon the process on which it is built; optical mediums are dependent upon the lasers/process used to read and write from the medium.  CDs will survive just about all weather conditions except acid rain.  They are also not sensitive to magnetic fields.  Remember, games have come on flash memory for a long time (e.g. Atari, Nintento DS).  Think back to the first time there was a CD vs flash memory war: PlayStation vs Nintendo 64.  Nintendo had limited textures and MIDI sound; PlayStation had relatively huge textures and licensed sound tracks (like MP3 today).  That's what happened with 700 MB compared to 64 MiB.  Places where flash memory is used today is just as limited.




digibucc said:


> so excluding download time, you can install a game from an optical disk faster than steam can decrypt the same files?


DVD drives can read at 21.60 MB/s (16x drive).  Actual install time depends on how heavily compressed the installers have packed the data on the disk.




digibucc said:


> and, there is no issue in regards to backing up game files.  you can burn them to a disk or copy them to a hard drive, and there is your backup.  i rarely re-download a game after the first download, as i just keep them installed.  if i really didn't want to download or keep it installed, i'd just burn it to a disk through steam, as they make it very easy. D2d is just a zip, even easier.


The game is still tied to your Steam account.  It's just another thing to lose.


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## kid41212003 (Apr 12, 2010)

What was the last time that you actually use Steam Ford?

I had problems with Steam, but not in like over 2 years now.

And I believe digital copies save environment!


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

A few days ago when I installed Saints Row II.

Digital copies do not save the environment.  The servers and routers around the world that serve those files are running 24/7 and sucking up a lot of juice in addition to the huge forced air cooling systems they have to use to keep them cool.  A disk, once it is stamped, will last years without producing anymore waste.


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## tacgnol (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> A few days ago when I installed Saints Row II.
> 
> Digital copies do not save the environment.  The servers and routers around the world that serve those files are running 24/7 and sucking up a lot of juice in addition to the huge forced air cooling systems they have to use to keep them cool.  A disk, once it is stamped, will last years without producing anymore waste.



Yeah, if you ever go to a datacentre it is so loud, the sound of the fans is immense. Those places consume a huge amount of power 24/7. The interweb in general is no doubt really bad for the environment.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

I think I read somewhere that the Internet (all the resources connected to it) is the most energy consuming object on Earth.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I think I read somewhere that the Internet (all the resources connected to it) is the most energy consuming object on Earth.



its alive like an organism. Growing and using resources.


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## kid41212003 (Apr 12, 2010)

Well, at least it's centralized, and more manageable than consumers waste.

We're not burning trees to generate electricity too...

Totally offtopic btw


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## Fitseries3 (Apr 12, 2010)

Live OR Die said:


> poo



+1


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## erocker (Apr 12, 2010)

Solaris17 said:


> its alive like an organism. Growing and using resources.



I can't wait until it takes the form of a dragon. This is where hackers will be needed as they are not really hackers... They are Dragonslayers!!


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

kid41212003 said:


> We're not burning trees to generate electricity too...


Coal is the number one source of electricity in the world.  Coal is basically composed of dead, compressed organic matter including trees.  So technically, we are.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm not going down with this road with you again Ford. Steam is the future. We are Steam, resistance is futile.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

Not for me it isn't.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 12, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Not for me it isn't.



WTF didn't you understand?!

Resistance is futile!


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2010)

I'd rather die. At least my game collection would still be resalable.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 12, 2010)

the borg were doing great. until squirt GUNS


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## Wile E (Apr 12, 2010)

How did this turn into a debate about steam and other PC drm?

This article is about the PS3, and Sony removing OtherOS because GeoHot found an exploit, and showed it to the world. He did not write any code to circumvent Sony's game drm on the PS3, just found, and showed an exploit.

Sony then removed OtherOS support in retaliation, when no one even pirated any games, or even released a way to do so. No matter how you look at it, Sony is the asshole here. Why? Because they are only hurting legit customers. Now I either have to give up online gameplay and soon new games and BD's to keep OtherOS (All features that I paid for, mind you. I didn't pay to have one or the other, I paid to have all at the same time), or I have to become a "dirty, illegal hacker" to get what I honestly paid for. All SOny had to do was patch the exploit. Instead, what they did was akin to using acid to remove a stain from you shirt. What's next, remove the ability to play PS2 games from my 60GB launch console?

I agree that piracy is bad, I do not agree that finding exploits is bad however, and that's all this "hacking" in the article is. Finding exploits.

Now, that I have to wait for a hack for my console to do what I paid for it to do, I do look forward to the homebrew scene, however. I'd love to see someone add more codec and subtitle support to the PS3, and essentially turn it into a fully featured HTPC that plays games.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Apr 12, 2010)

I hate steam, it's versions of games have fucked file structures so a lot of mods don't work with them. And the whole having to have it run in the background, every single program that installs itself and elects to start up with windows by default is contributing to some moron wanting a mac. Those start with windows apps bog down the whole system. I build a pc for someone, go see it in a months time and it takes 5 minutes to boot because of all the programs people install that bog shit down, then they blame windows and buy into that mac is better shit, buy one and by the time they learn how to use it properly they could have just learned how to use the pc correctly.... but I digress.


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## kid41212003 (Apr 12, 2010)

I thought we were talking about green hackers and dragons.


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## Kreij (Apr 12, 2010)

This thread is about hackers. I think we should keep it on topic.
Don't you all agree?


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## MilkyWay (Apr 13, 2010)

I think that having a balanced system with both digital downloads and physical media is the immediate future and a perfect balance. From my experience you can get good deals on both physical and digital downloads. I like to buy physical media because i can trade it in and buy second hand easily, its also good because you can have a physical thing to collect and sometimes get extras with it like a shirt or a poster. Also at the same time ive bought a few games on steam or even from developers sites. I bought psychonaughts for a dollar on steam. So you can understand that its good to have both but not do away with one of them because they have both got benefits, by co existing they balance each others flaws out.

In relation to the OP i think that hacking can be a bit of both like i stated before, in that it can be detrimental and positive at the same time.

The only real way to combat piracy is to limit other areas like how DRM limits installs though this effects the consumer and never the pirate because they just use cracks and new hacks to get by these implementations.

Piracy has always existed, they used to copy games or buy copied games buy illegal clone systems and software. Games on blank floppies, tapes ect. Its just never been over hyped like it is now and the availability of the internet has given more options for piracy where as before it was all local and physical. Most people i knew had Playstation 1's with those expansions on the back port and the little spring to play copied cd roms. Even go back to the 80s and computers like the Commodores! Film Piracy and taping songs off the radio.

You can never truly stop piracy some new hack or something will always come out, even limiting bandwidth and download speeds would only lead to finding ways past it or going back to buying or procuring physical material locally. You just have to hope people want to buy games and that piracy stays at a tolerable level.


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## D007 (Apr 13, 2010)

KainXS said:


> A must read, check it out
> 
> http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/news/the-ugly-truth-about-hackers-012335.php



This has to be the dumbest pile of steaming shit I have ever read.
They steal shit.. period..
They are not some knights in shining armor, they are thieves, scumbags and liars.
All they do is hurt the hard working people that actually pay for the things they own by making us get stuck with bullshit DRM's and countless other anti-piracy measures.

FYi it's a lot easier to hack existing code than it is to write that code from scratch, you ain't doing nothing special, so don't think you are.


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## F1reFly (Apr 13, 2010)

The problem is not the hackers. The problem is all those who exploit, use and seed the hackers work.

Hacker A: "hey look, i hacked the xbox, here is proof of concept"

Savvy PC User: "awesome, i'm going to use this and tell my net buddies posted with links"

Hacker B: "Interesting, i'm going to make a program that makes this hassle easier for stupid people"

Hacker C: "cool, i'm going to rip some xbox games so everyone who hacks their xbox can use them for free."

Gamers everywhere: "awesome, i'll just follow these idiot guide directions and download all my games for free for the rest of my xbox days...muahahha"


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## Solaris17 (Apr 13, 2010)

kid41212003 said:


> I thought we were talking about green hackers and dragons.





Kreij said:


> This thread is about hackers. I think we should keep it on topic.
> Don't you all agree?



for the record I absolutly support dragons


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## Kreij (Apr 13, 2010)

So do I, Sol. But that is irrelevant to this thread.
Keep it on topic or the thread goes away.
That would be a shame as there are many good opinions on this topic in this thread.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 13, 2010)

Kreij said:


> So do I, Sol. But that is irrelevant to this thread.
> Keep it on topic or the thread goes away.
> That would be a shame as there are many good opinions on this topic in this thread.



Im aware the thread will go away. Sorry I was just kind of joking.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Apr 13, 2010)

Well once a thread gets this long people tend to reply without reading previous posts, and most every argument by those already involved has(ve??) already been made... so at this point it might as well be over.


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## Kreij (Apr 13, 2010)

You are right LAN, but not all TPU users are constant visitors and we do not close threads so that other people get a chance to participate in a discussion if they want to do so.

That's the beauty of TPU


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## Deleted member 67555 (Apr 13, 2010)

Completely on Topic
Don't you think companies are missing the point when they hire these Cracker/Hackers to help prevent future Hacking/Cracking instead of using these people for innovations 
It's like a guarantee that prices will go up because of it and it will continue to be a loosing cycle which will lead to fewer paying customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to higher prices which will lead to fewer customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to fewer paying customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to higher prices which will lead to fewer customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to fewer paying customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to higher prices which will lead to fewer customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to fewer paying customers which will lead to higher piracy which will lead to higher prices which will lead to fewer customers which will lead to higher piracy

Where is the logic in that
maybe instead of hiring those that crack or hack they  could spend that money on the people that developed game saves for the pSP etc.. and win through superior product at  a better price and perhaps drop the DRM's


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## DigitalUK (Apr 13, 2010)

Or Make games such a reasonable price that piracy seems so sad.

without Hackers we wouldnt even be talking about this here.

Steve Wozniak 

Bill Gates  (yea thats right) , Liberated Source code from Apple for Windows


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## digibucc (Apr 13, 2010)

DigitalUK said:


> Or Make games such a reasonable price that piracy seems so sad.
> 
> without Hackers we wouldnt even be talking about this here.
> 
> ...



thank you, people including myself tend to forget that the same mindset, mentality , and actions they are condemning are what built the industry into what it is today.

not saying it justifies it all, it doesn't - just saying that it is not simply black and white as some of you like to claim. life is not that simple and neither is technology, laws, or ethics.  there is always a gray area - children start to realize this at age 6 (most of them  )


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## DigitalUK (Apr 13, 2010)

most of the people on this forum are Hackers.
modified Heatsinks to make our machines cooler than there were ever intended.
Overclocking out processors so we get the next higher speed that we didnt pay for (or in some people's cases 10 models higher)
modding gfx cards because we couldnt afford or didnt want to pay the extra for the better model.


if we buy into the corporate hype of hackers it will kill the spirit of everything we love about the technology revolution.


just an opinion, and its getting later..


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## DaMulta (Apr 13, 2010)

Sony can cry all they want to that you don't have to update to lose OtherOS. 

I think it's BS really that they would clam more, or less your system stays the same if you don't update.



If I continue not to update these are the things I will lose.

PSN Network, and all that goes with it.

Ok that's a service not really a product on the PS3.

Yet there is more.

I will also lose up coming games without updating. They simply will not play if the game needs to do an update.

Without PSN Network on the PS3 I can not download movies/games to the PSP. Which has been advertised more than a service.

PSPremote You have to login to PSN network to be able to connect with the PSP over Wi-Fi. 
This was also something that Sony pused to own both products.

Also lose flash support while pspremote with the PS3 if I want to get online with it.

Then I will also lose BlueRay to PSP that is just now hitting the self.


If I had otheros(it's not on my slim, but on my other PS3)installed. If I didn't have a place to back things up all the things I worked on would be GONE. I could really see people using the PS3 for a PC instead of owning a PC. All their data would just be out the window. I just don't see that as fair to the end user.


I hope someone sues the crap out of them in the US for millions. It really is BS them saying if you don't want to lose something don't update/WHILE losing even more things without updating.


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 13, 2010)

DaMulta said:


> Sony can cry all they want to that you don't have to update to lose OtherOS.
> 
> I think it's BS really that they would clam more, or less your system stays the same if you don't update.
> 
> ...



Says DaMulta. The biggest pirate this side of the Caribbean.


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## DaMulta (Apr 14, 2010)




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## crazyeyesreaper (Apr 14, 2010)

nice photoshop skills


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Apr 14, 2010)

DaMulta said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/070104/ahoydamulta.jpg



You still have that picture?  Someone made that a long time ago methinks! (not me)


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 14, 2010)

It shouldn't have any designation at all (R.M.S. = Royal Mail Shp)...


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## Wile E (Apr 14, 2010)

DaMulta said:


> Sony can cry all they want to that you don't have to update to lose OtherOS.
> 
> I think it's BS really that they would clam more, or less your system stays the same if you don't update.
> 
> ...



And this is what makes me so angry. There was no reason for them to remove OtherOS support. George didn't even release a hack. He just released an exploit. What he did didn't even enable us to pirate games at all.

Again, what Sony has done is akin to using sulfuric acid to remove a stain on your shirt. Sure, the stain (exploit) is gone, but so is part of the shirt (OtherOS).


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 14, 2010)

I think their reasoning is to make it harder for more exploits to be found.  They basically are concluding that, instead of addressing every single exploit that is discovered, we'll just make it harder to find exploits in the first place.


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## Wile E (Apr 14, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I think their reasoning is to make it harder for more exploits to be found.  They basically are concluding that, instead of addressing every single exploit that is discovered, we'll just make it harder to find exploits in the first place.



Still like acid on a stain. Still doesn't make the tactic OK, or even remotely sensible, for that matter.

I had never intended on hacking my PS3, I have been perfectly happy with it until this point. They are basically forcing me to hack it now. I am completely not interested in pirating games for it, I just want what I paid for. 

What's next? Are they gonna remove my PS2 compatibility?


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## TheMailMan78 (Apr 14, 2010)

All I can say is you F#$k with the bull and you get the horn.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 14, 2010)

Wile E said:


> What's next? Are they gonna remove my PS2 compatibility?


They did.  You can't buy a PS3 now that will run PS2 games without paying an inflated price for it.

Because they disabled OtherOS, they really don't have to worry about PS2 exploits being found so it is unlikely that support would be removed--especially if your PS3 has the Emotion Engine chip in it (hardware implementation).




TheMailMan78 said:


> All I can say is you F#$k with the bull and you get the horn.


An unintentionally violent bull gets put down (Sony and the lot by consumers)...


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## Wile E (Apr 14, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They did.  You can't buy a PS3 now that will run PS2 games without paying an inflated price for it.
> 
> Because they disabled OtherOS, they really don't have to worry about PS2 exploits being found so it is unlikely that support would be removed--especially if your PS3 has the Emotion Engine chip in it (hardware implementation).



They haven't removed it from my console is my point. I have a 60GB launch model, and I paid for OtherOS and PS2 support. Are they gonna remove PS2 support from my launch console next?

What they did was wrong, plain and simple. Even if what GeoHot did was considered wrong, it doesn't make Sony's actions proper. 2 wrongs don't make a right.


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## Frick (Apr 14, 2010)

Wile E said:


> They haven't removed it from my console is my point. I have a 60GB launch model, and I paid for OtherOS and PS2 support. Are they gonna remove PS2 support from my launch console next?



There would be no suprise if they did.


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## Triprift (Apr 14, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Still like acid on a stain. Still doesn't make the tactic OK, or even remotely sensible, for that matter.
> 
> I had never intended on hacking my PS3, I have been perfectly happy with it until this point. They are basically forcing me to hack it now. I am completely not interested in pirating games for it, I just want what I paid for.
> 
> What's next? Are they gonna remove my PS2 compatibility?



I cant run ps2 games on my ps3 then again ive still got me od ps2 so i dont care.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 14, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Still like acid on a stain. Still doesn't make the tactic OK, or even remotely sensible, for that matter.
> 
> I had never intended on hacking my PS3, I have been perfectly happy with it until this point. They are basically forcing me to hack it now. I am completely not interested in pirating games for it, I just want what I paid for.
> 
> What's next? Are they gonna remove my PS2 compatibility?




If that matters to You I hacked my Wii So I could get games that were not expected to Hit US shevles aka Imports. Tatsunoko vs Capcom wasn't even expected in the US until this year. Back then several were saying it wasn't going to come to the US. Also I can play certain games that have the Japanese VAs and Subtitles on a separate File set on the disks using the hacks I have. I can also watch DVDs on it as a backup to my main player since the mainplayer is having issues with one of my DVD sets (it is not the DVDs but the player itself now)


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## DannibusX (Apr 14, 2010)

I don't own a PS3 yet, and I'm not really a Linux person, but when I heard that Sony was gonna allow you to install Linux on their console and be backwards compatible with the PS2 I thought it was a seriously awesome feature.  Microsoft would never support another OS on their product, ever.

It sucks to see that the feature has been removed.


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## Wile E (Apr 14, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> If that matters to You I hacked my Wii So I could get games that were not expected to Hit US shevles aka Imports. Tatsunoko vs Capcom wasn't even expected in the US until this year. Back then several were saying it wasn't going to come to the US. Also I can play certain games that have the Japanese VAs and Subtitles on a separate File set on the disks using the hacks I have. I can also watch DVDs on it as a backup to my main player since the mainplayer is having issues with one of my DVD sets (it is not the DVDs but the player itself now)



My Wii is hacked to play emulators and DVDs.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 14, 2010)

I think I can do the same thing, Gecko OS?


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## Wile E (Apr 14, 2010)

Don't remember now. Rarely use it.


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## digibucc (Apr 14, 2010)

Wile E said:


> My Wii is hacked to play emulators and DVDs.



mine too.  I play my old school snes games more often than the new Wii games I have purchased.
I own 95% the s/nes carts I play, but i didn't want to buy the adapter so i just "borrowed" some roms...

I just used the .... "nightime" exploit, and installed the hdd/wad loader.  so i launch them from the basic homebrew app launcher ...

I also bought a bunch of the n64 channels, like bomberman and zelda 64.  The way i see the included feature of even being able to emulate old games at all is thanks to hackers.  I don't believe the companies would have thought that feature up themselves until they were shown how popular it could be.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 14, 2010)

Um, the Wii can emulate all the way back to NES/Arcade without hacking.  It has all the emulators built in.


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## digibucc (Apr 14, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Um, the Wii can emulate all the way back to NES/Arcade without hacking.  It has all the emulators built in.



what?  it doe snot have a way built in that you can copy roms to a folder and play them , you have to buy each individually regardless of whether you own the original cart or not.

and that wasn't even my point.

my point was without the hacks to the original xbox and ps2 - sony and microsoft, as well as nintendo would not have implemented that feature themselves.  they thought it was stupid and worthless until hackers made it possible, and showed how much people liked it.... then they all wanted in.  just like the media sharing and streaming features in ps3/ps2.  without someone hacking together XBMC, the companies would not have been so eager to put those options in, at least not for this generation.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 14, 2010)

Nintendo wouldn't have been able to get publishers to port their games if they allowed users to use ROMs.


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