# anyone have experience with "Kinguin"? seems a bit TOO cheap to be legal to me.



## jboydgolfer (Feb 22, 2016)

I saw a video on Youtube from what I would normally say is a legit person, but he was showcasing how to get a $20 Win 10 key, or a $17 Win 7 key...I obviously want to save money, but this seems a LOT like , or close enough to Pirating. Im not an idiot, but I try not to make assumptions either. Let Me know if You have experience with this site please.i feel like this is one of those "buy the key, install the OS, and a month later microsoft flags it, and Your S.O.L

thanks.


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## Toothless (Feb 22, 2016)

The one tech dude on youtube with glasses made a video about a $20 key, I forgot who though.

Found himmm


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 22, 2016)

yeah , thats who i was referencing. He basically does his best to NOT give any solid opinion, or info regarding the sites legitamacy in that video, so i thought id poke aroud somewhere that I trust most of the other people.


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## AsRock (Feb 22, 2016)

Yeah, because he was able to actually get it, don't mean your bank account or paypal details are safe after.


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## TheGuruStud (Feb 22, 2016)

Kinguin is just a marketplace. You mean g2a, g2play, etc.

As long as the keys weren't bought with stolen CCs...  They buy keys in poorer countries, then sell them.

The largest sellers seem to be solid.

Anyone paying for windows needs punished. I use it for games.


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## R-T-B (Feb 22, 2016)

Most of the "cheap" keys are misused volume license agreement keys that will activate for about a month, and then microsoft will revoke the activation.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 22, 2016)

Toothless said:


> The one tech dude on youtube with glasses made a video about a $20 key, I forgot who though.
> 
> Found himmm



That looks like one of the guys that used to be on Newegg TV.


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## Solaris17 (Feb 22, 2016)

rtwjunkie said:


> That looks like one of the guys that used to be on Newegg TV.



is that him?!


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## AsRock (Feb 22, 2016)

It don't look like, it is .


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## newtekie1 (Feb 22, 2016)

Some of the games are legit.  For example, the ones that come as game vouchers with GPUs.  People get on there and sell those all the time, and they activate without a problem.

I'd wouldn't buy Windows on there though.


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## 95Viper (Feb 22, 2016)

Here is an interesting article... The truth behind those mysteriously cheap gray market game codes


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 22, 2016)

so my gut feeling was right apparently,,, sketch city.


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## 95Viper (Feb 22, 2016)

jboydgolfer said:


> so my gut feeling was right apparently,,, sketch city.



Sorta, like, gambling... sometimes you win and sometimes you could lose.

The site seems legit; however, are the sellers legit, is the real question.  Were the keys purchased illegally, should not be sold retail, cracks, etc. or, they could be perfectly legal.
Which, ever, seems R, A, B, C, or whoever ain't taking no blame... it was them, not us.

Really, when you think about it... it is not any different than any other site that sells online... some just give better customer service, guarantees, buyer protection, etc.
But, you really want to go with a sure bet most of the time.


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## R-T-B (Feb 22, 2016)

95Viper said:


> Sorta, like, gambling... sometimes you win and sometimes you could lose.
> or, they could be perfectly legal.



Unlikely.  Even if they work for eternity, they aren't legal.  Reselling OEM keys is a violation of MS TOS.  And if it's full retail, why the heck would you not sell it as such with proof of license?


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## newtekie1 (Feb 22, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Unlikely.  Even if they work for eternity, they aren't legal.  Reselling OEM keys is a violation of MS TOS.  And if it's full retail, why the heck would you not sell it as such with proof of license?



Well, that depends.  If you haven't broken the outer seal, the red sticker on the envelope the OEM software comes in, then it is perfectly legal to resell it.  The TOS applies to the person that breaks that seal, before that you haven't agreed to any TOS.

_However_, Kinguin requires the seller to take a picture of the COA and send it to the buyer.  The only way to do this is to break the OEM seal.  Also, the sale of the OEM software must include the transfer of the COA, which isn't happening either.  So Kinguin is definitely operating outside of the law.  But they also do sell Retail keys.

However, what I think 95Viper meant was that the keys could have been acquired legally, and never activated.  The only less than legal thing is transferring the un-activated key from one person to another in a way not approved by Microsoft.  But that isn't going to stop the key from working.  Microsoft doesn't really care when activating if the COA is actually stuck on the side of the computer.  They only want to make sure the software hasn't been activated already.


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## 95Viper (Feb 22, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Unlikely.  Even if they work for eternity, they aren't legal.  Reselling OEM keys is a violation of MS TOS.  And if it's full retail, why the heck would you not sell it as such with proof of license?



Don't quote someone and re-arrange it so it is taken out of context.
What you mention would be covered under my words, "should not be sold retail".

I was stating that some on the sites may be selling legitimate keys... and, you never know it could be a retail key, with all the goodies.


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## newtekie1 (Feb 22, 2016)

95Viper said:


> I was stating that some on the sites may be selling legitimate keys... and, you never know it could be a retail key, with all the goodies.



Actually, on Kinguin, they differentiate between OEM and Retail keys.  If it is a retail key it costs a little more and they let you know.


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## R-T-B (Feb 22, 2016)

95Viper said:


> Don't quote someone and re-arrange it so it is taken out of context.
> What you mention would be covered under my words, "should not be sold retail".
> 
> I was stating that some on the sites may be selling legitimate keys... and, you never know it could be a retail key, with all the goodies.



I really was just trying to get to the point.  I honestly missed the part where you mentioned retail keys, I thought you were just assuming cheap keys could be legal.  I wasn't trying to take your words out of context, and I actually did not rearrange them... FWIW.

EDIT:  Oh wait, I did rearrange them.  It was only supposed to be the bottom line quoted.  I blame my phone.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Feb 22, 2016)

Kinguin is fine for game keys.

Kinguin and G2A are pretty much direct competitiors.

However its best to stick to sellers that are in your area.

Example 100% positive feedback / if in an english region aka Canada / uk / australia / US you can buy from any of those territories without much issue. I have seen complications buying say Russian keys etc. But just pay attention to the details and its fine.

Legal ? Its Grey Market keys. The legality is kinda moot. no different than selling keys from steam gifts etc via PM or friends or the like just in this case a third party exists. I would avoid buying Microsoft keys via G2A / Kinguin etc. But games? yeah zero problems in that regard.


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## MustSeeMelons (Feb 22, 2016)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Kinguin and G2A are pretty much direct competitiors.



Are you sure? Kinguin sells keys from many sites, including G2A, it's more like an aggregator. 
Kinguin is fine, have bought a few games there - if the key doesn't work, you can choose to refund or get another key. Same as G2A, but without all the odd questions.


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## Capitan Harlock (Feb 22, 2016)

Never had issue with kinguin in the last years that im using it .
About Paul from Pauls Hardware is a good and reliable guy so if you dont follow him and the other circles of youtube tech that are friend with him then dont judge .
Because does not make any sense.


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 22, 2016)

eh, i wasnt so much intending to say he is terrible or anything(and i didnt), I just thought of him "differently" before that video(with more respect)..now i view him with less regard is all...i suppose that is/could be viewed as judging, but that is My prerogative...im certainly capable of forming my own opinion's of other's. my opinions are certainly not intended to offend You or anyone else, but I am certainly allowed to have them..and will continue to.

thanks for all the feedback...Im gonna make the decision that this site just isn't for me. Im with whoever said making smaller game purchases might be okay...but OS purchases are IMO not too many steps above pirating, either way the M$ T.O.S certainly aren't being followed....i have enough corruption in my life & dont need any more.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 22, 2016)

Don't buy Windows keys at these prices, it's not worth the risk.

Don't get me wrong, I buy all my games through G2A and the like, but Windows... no. Just no.

You can also find cheaper Win 7 keys now, look for those, especially on business-related sellers. They sell them at a good price and you can still upgrade to 10 until 29 june or july. If you find them at 40-60 bucks, that's very decent.

I found my OEM W7 key for 45 or so, not too long ago.


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## alucasa (Feb 22, 2016)

The problem with those cheap keys is that you don't know when they will suddenly deactivate. It's probably better to seek alternative.
When it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Feb 22, 2016)

never had issues with said keys.

Fallout 3
MGS V
Witcher 2
RAGE
A shit ton of other older games i picked up for a couple bucks. 
Over the last 3-4 years zero keys revoked. Like i said stick to sellers in your region. It is not rocket science.


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## OneMoar (Feb 22, 2016)

just anouther site gaming the currency conversion rates 
use at your own risk


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## Ahhzz (Feb 22, 2016)

We've used it very recently, and had no issue (had to have a win7 key re-issued, took no time at all), but as the OM master says, use at your own risk....


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 15, 2016)

Got very bored and bought JC3 for 25 and Hitman for  a friend for 34.

This Denuvo shit is terrible. Both games are eating 85% CPU. That's absurd for Hitman.


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## kronic1 (Mar 15, 2016)

never had an issue with any keys brought from kingun  have brought several windows keys and they have all been oem /retail keys no issues with them whatsoever, never had a game key or windows key fail yet ,of corse i don't  buy from places that have a bad rating , but thats about it , windows licensing is a complete scam anyway, and is only still going strong because fools think that its fine you have to pay $150 -$450 For a so called Valid license for buggy as crap software


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 15, 2016)

kronic1 said:


> never had an issue with any keys brought from kingun  have brought several windows keys and they have all been oem /retail keys no issues with them whatsoever, never had a game key or windows key fail yet ,of corse i don't  buy from places that have a bad rating , but thats about it , windows licensing is a complete scam anyway, and is only still going strong because fools think that its fine you have to pay $150 -$450 For a so called Valid license for buggy as crap software



Nothing that KMSpico can't solve lol


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## Sasqui (Mar 15, 2016)

Vayra86 said:


> Don't buy Windows keys at these prices, it's not worth the risk.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I buy all my games through G2A and the like, but Windows... no. Just no.
> 
> ...



Amazon price for Win 7 OEM (thru some sellers) has been ranging $45-$55 depending on the day.  Appears quite legit, and the amazon cops will presumably protect you.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 15, 2016)

LOL 45-55 try $20-25 on reddit microsoft software swap.

Windows 10 PRO for 45. have had better luck with Windows software on reddit.

As for games bought plenty along with DLC no issues as i have said before.


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## c2DDragon (Mar 16, 2016)

Hey !

I did buy games on this site and a FF XIV ARR Prepaid time game card, no issues anywhere.
Every Win 10 pro keys I see there are 25,99€ with the buyer protection (1€) (KINGUIN buyer protection 100% money back guarantee within 30 days)
Maybe prices are better for US, Idk but if you want to try a Windows key, let the buyer protection ticked. 
My bro did take a very cheap Windows 8.1 Pro key on G2A to wipe his Windows 7 Pirate and go to Windows 10 Pro, no issues, Kinguin and G2A are pretty similar.


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## little cat (Mar 16, 2016)

I havent bought anything from there . This is mainly second market i.e. one bought it , then another and then You . Also such a scenario may happen : One buys 1000 keys with not covered credit card . You buy from the guy but since the key was bought with uncovered credit card firstly , it becomes invalid


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## Baum (Mar 27, 2016)

And Kinguin is just a "market" ...1 Dollar for safety sure... talking snowball system :-(

i would not buy my operating system from there just because: risk vs. use? makes no sense....


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 27, 2016)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> LOL 45-55 try $20-25 on reddit microsoft software swap.
> 
> Windows 10 PRO for 45. have had better luck with Windows software on reddit.
> 
> As for games bought plenty along with DLC no issues as i have said before.



What's funny is that anyone can get a legitimate win10 key. Install and um...activate...win 7/8, install updates, then get your real win10 key.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Mar 27, 2016)

True @TheGuruStud until you run into the issue where *the update wont complete. * Microsoft still hasn't fixed the error where the update will freeze at various points. It is rare but Out of 15 machines built and upgraded. (Win 7 legit for $20) I have had 2 machines that could not finish the upgrade to Windows 10 and required a fresh install. *Granted at the time. You could not use the win 7 / 8 keys to activate a fresh install. *Now its not a problem. That said the free upgrade cycle wont last forever. In which case a key for $40-45 is alot cheaper than most will sell for via Kinguin etc.


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## jaggerwild (Mar 27, 2016)

TheGuruStud said:


> What's funny is that anyone can get a legitimate win10 key. Install and um...activate...win 7/8, install updates, then get your real win10 key.


Plus after doing this, when the year is up what happens then if you have issue's? We haven't past this point yet.....
 I aim in need of a new windows install, I'm just gonna buy a copy of OEM at New Egg. As was said in a few years after all those keys start retrying to activate new installs aint worth it!


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## blobster21 (Mar 27, 2016)

TheGuruStud said:


> What's funny is that anyone can get a legitimate win10 key. Install and um...activate...win 7/8, install updates, then get your real win10 key.



Just nitpicking, but in this scenario you will get a "digital entitlement" which, like any regular product key, is tied to your hardware (ie. motherboard) ( source )


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## TheHunter (Mar 28, 2016)

Its a good site, I selected the cheapest games on there and all work fine.
MKX premium for 8€
DeadRising 3 for 10€ and 2 more cheap games..

Imo much better store then cjskeys. Nubs gave me gift key and in end had to exhange 15mails and get angry inbetween until they returned me money credit for that said game.. Also ripoff by paysafe card, £ to € tax on top of it.. They wont see me there anymore.


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## gottistar (Nov 13, 2016)

ive bought 3 win10 keys off them......and ive no problems with them so far......all updated without a problem....pcs are working great.


i might add ive been using them for around 6 months.


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## R-T-B (Nov 13, 2016)

I don't know why people bother paying for these keys to feel legit...  unless you bought a full retail key, you're still in violation of the EULA and ms can revoke it at any time.  Heck, you may as well just crack windows, it's just as legal...  You basically just paid for a pirate copy that just happens to presently trick the DRM because the key hasn't been reported as misused yet.

To be clear, many of the keys sold on Kinguin are misused OEM or volume license keys.  They are NOT legal to use in this context.

Don't believe me?  Check the "legit" key you paid for with this:

https://github.com/Superfly-Inc/ShowKeyPlus/releases

If you really got a retail key, good job.


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## gottistar (Nov 13, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know why people bother paying for these keys to feel legit...  unless you bought a full retail key, you're still in violation of the EULA and ms can revoke it at any time.  Heck, you may as well just crack windows, it's just as legal...  You basically just paid for a pirate copy that just happens to presently trick the DRM because the key hasn't been reported as misused yet.
> 
> To be clear, many of the keys sold on Kinguin are misused OEM or volume license keys.  They are NOT legal to use in this context.
> 
> ...




Is there a site you're aware of that sells "cheap" or "cheaper" retail keys?  legit...

from what ive researched so far, they are ranging from 75 to 155  a pop from various sites.


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## Frick (Nov 13, 2016)

Retail keys cost the same as OEM keys these days, at proper stores.  People are so cheap.


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## MasterInvader (Nov 13, 2016)

I have 261 games / 104 DLC´s on my Steam acc and 80% were bought on Kinguin/G2A, never had a single problem.
Running 2 PC´s [for at least one year] on Win7 keys from Kinguin, working just fine.


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## Recon-UK (Nov 13, 2016)

LOL who pays for Windows??? Sucks to be you i guess.

I have  436 games & 205 DLC on Steam alone, around 15 games were bought on G2A with no issues.
I checked out that i reside in Pakistan to avoid tax cost too, you mad?


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## gottistar (Nov 13, 2016)

Recon-UK said:


> LOL who pays for Windows??? Sucks to be you i guess.
> 
> I have  436 games & 205 DLC on Steam alone, around 15 games were bought on G2A with no issues.
> I checked out that i reside in Pakistan to avoid tax cost too, you mad?


LOL?  plenty of people pay for windows, doesnt mean we suck...its the same as you pay for your games.


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## Recon-UK (Nov 13, 2016)

gottistar said:


> LOL?  plenty of people pay for windows, doesnt mean we suck...its the same as you pay for your games.



I am an assistive user, i can't see, i have no hands and no legs so i get it free 

https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/accessibility/windows10upgrade


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## gottistar (Nov 13, 2016)

Recon-UK said:


> I am an assistive user, i can't see, i have no hands and no legs so i get it free


You sir, are a comedian.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 13, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know why people bother paying for these keys to feel legit...  unless you bought a full retail key, you're still in violation of the EULA and ms can revoke it at any time.  Heck, you may as well just crack windows, it's just as legal...  You basically just paid for a pirate copy that just happens to presently trick the DRM because the key hasn't been reported as misused yet.
> 
> To be clear, many of the keys sold on Kinguin are misused OEM or volume license keys.  They are NOT legal to use in this context.
> 
> ...



It will be an interesting case if it EVER reaches court. Buyer buys product that looks legit, does its research as far as can be reasonably expected, finds nothing strange - versus the EULA that is already been very clearly put on the backbench because (inter)national laws always come first and last. You can put whatever the F ever in your EULA, I honestly don't give a damn. I care about national law, nothing else, and that law offers consumer protection to a great degree and puts the responsibility of a legit product almost entirely in the hands of the seller. The only thing I really NEED to do as a consumer, is convince myself its legit. And when I see OEM keys on Google for 30 bucks a pop, and find them on a keysite for 19-25, I really can't say that 'looks like it is not legit'. All it looks like, is a good and plausible discount. What's more, I have no real, plausible way of finding out a specific key is legit or not.

Thus far, all I see is companies taking the hit themselves, Microsoft included, because it is simply not worth chasing down individual sales and customers for as little as 10-40 bucks per product.

And it will remain so as long as the group that buys these keys doesn't grow exponentially. This goes for Windows keys, but also games.


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## Vario (Nov 13, 2016)

I buy old games from G2A.  Steam prices are a rip off and they should be ashamed selling a 10 year old game for over $15.


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## R-T-B (Nov 13, 2016)

Vayra86 said:


> It will be an interesting case if it EVER reaches court. Buyer buys product that looks legit, does its research as far as can be reasonably expected, finds nothing strange - versus the EULA that is already been very clearly put on the backbench because (inter)national laws always come first and last. You can put whatever the F ever in your EULA, I honestly don't give a damn. I care about national law, nothing else, and that law offers consumer protection to a great degree and puts the responsibility of a legit product almost entirely in the hands of the seller. The only thing I really NEED to do as a consumer, is convince myself its legit. And when I see OEM keys on Google for 30 bucks a pop, and find them on a keysite for 19-25, I really can't say that 'looks like it is not legit'. All it looks like, is a good and plausible discount. What's more, I have no real, plausible way of finding out a specific key is legit or not.
> 
> Thus far, all I see is companies taking the hit themselves, Microsoft included, because it is simply not worth chasing down individual sales and customers for as little as 10-40 bucks per product.
> 
> And it will remain so as long as the group that buys these keys doesn't grow exponentially. This goes for Windows keys, but also games.



There are keytools to find out whether keys are legit retail or not.

OEM keys are always illegal to trade, plain and simple.  They can never "look legit" if they admit they are OEM openly.

You really aren't doing any due-dilligance as a buyer, and if your key is revoked, you haven't a snowballs chance in hell of getting anything from a court.


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## OneMoar (Nov 13, 2016)




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## INSTG8R (Nov 13, 2016)

I still use G2play which is now under Kinguin anyway. I can't think of the last game I bought that wasn't from there. I must be easy close to a hundred games if easy not more(When Kinguin took over I lost a pretty big database of games. BUT I have never had any issues with anything I have bought be it Triple AA(and I buy almost all of them sometimes months in advanced because of the low price) or a cheap indie, I have Uplay, Origin and TONS of Steam games all from them. In fact that Steam site that tells you how much your account is worth is pretty sparse for 342 because they never saw any money...


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## Vayra86 (Nov 14, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> There are keytools to find out whether keys are legit retail or not.
> 
> OEM keys are always illegal to trade, plain and simple.  They can never "look legit" if they admit they are OEM openly.
> 
> You really aren't doing any due-dilligance as a buyer, and if your key is revoked, you haven't a snowballs chance in hell of getting anything from a court.



And then you lose what, 5-25 bucks 

The benefits by far outweigh the risk


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## OneMoar (Nov 14, 2016)

yall do realize this thread is 7 months old right


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## gottistar (Nov 14, 2016)

OneMoar said:


> yall do realize this thread is 7 months old right


the site is still very active , so the thread is still very real


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## Ungari (Nov 14, 2016)

OneMoar said:


> yall do realize this thread is 7 months old right



Wait! Did they stop selling Windows Keys now?


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## TheGuruStud (Nov 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> Wait! Did they stop selling Windows Keys now?



I wish, that would mean MS has gone insolvent.


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## R-T-B (Nov 14, 2016)

Vayra86 said:


> The benefits by far outweigh the risk



Just pirate it then.  It's equally illegal and costs less!

Do you see why this logic is an issue?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 14, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Just pirate it then.  It's equally illegal and costs less!
> 
> Do you see why this logic is an issue?



It's the same issue that happens all over the world, called hypocrisy. I am not going to pretend to be the saint that pays the premium for lacking legislation by governments that are too lazy to update law to the new reality they call the internet - a reality that's about as old as myself actually. I'm not paying for somebody else not doing their job, just someone who looks for the best deal for a product. The battle on this issue is not going to be fought with my wallet, simply because my wallet is never going to solve this issue anyway.

Its exactly the same as being overly environmentally friendly - it costs you a shitload of money and the net result is zero because big industries do whatever they can to make profit, look at how long it takes the world to get real on climate change. At the same time I applaud large-scale changes that actually have impact, such as moving from the old fashioned light bulb to LED lighting. These changes need to be win-win, or they won't happen.

In a similar vein, for gaming, the win-win change here is that the prices of games will remain competitive and that the DRM-based shops lose the battle eventually. Steam needs this pressure to stay on edge, for example.

Let's face it, the world isn't built on logic, but on profit and money. Get with the times...


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## RCoon (Nov 14, 2016)

This tends to crop up an awful lot, so I'll quote my last wall of text in response to Grey Market sites:



RCoon said:


> I feel I should chime in about key selling sites, then after the fact I'd appreciate it if people stuck with the OP's PC build and save the grey market talk for another topic.
> 
> Is G2A, G2Play, Kinguin, CJS CD Keys et al illegal? The answer is no. Why? Because they're a marketplace. For the most part (CJS excluded, they buy keys and sell them themselves), they do not buy and sell keys. They're merely a vessel for transactions to be made between the seller and buyer, similar to eBay. They take a cut of the sale, and offer their own "insurance" in case a transaction goes bad. This is mainly because they _have_ to, but also because they don't see the full sale profit, so they charge a few pence in order to cover their expenses for refunds in the event the seller doesn't pay up for a refund.
> 
> ...



EDIT: I actually assisted the developers of Blood Alloy Reborn with a Lithuanian YouTuber who sold some review keys for the game on G2A so I could write an article on the grey market. You can tell a review key, because when you activate it on Steam it comes up as "XXXXX press access added to your account". They were pretty grateful and offered me a free copy of their exceedingly awesome game soundtrack.


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## Mikro (Mar 24, 2017)

We have bought stuff from kinguin only for  10-30€, after christmas. In this month we checked our visa account and there is a payment for kinguin that is made 19th march and the price was about 80€. We definitely have NOT bought anything that costs 80€,, so i wouldnt trust kinguin anymore.


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 24, 2017)

Mikro said:


> We have bought stuff from kinguin only for  10-30€, after christmas. In this month we checked our visa account and there is a payment for kinguin that is made 19th march and the price was about 80€. We definitely have NOT bought anything that costs 80€,, so i wouldnt trust kinguin anymore.



Did you check to see if your account was stolen?


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## Slizzo (Mar 24, 2017)

Late to the conversation but:  http://resellerratings.com/store/KINGUIN

I like to use ResellerRatings.com for times when I'm in question about a certain website.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Mar 24, 2017)

Ive bought a few games from them. No issues.


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## Ahhzz (Mar 24, 2017)

Slizzo said:


> Late to the conversation but:  http://resellerratings.com/store/KINGUIN
> 
> I like to use ResellerRatings.com for times when I'm in question about a certain website.


I use RR when we have to buy obscure laptop or printer parts, and can't locate them from our normal vendors. Everyone is going to have some negative feedback, and I think since people are more likely to complain than complement, probably a higher percentage of complaints. But, if all I see are negatives, or something like a 5 to 1 ratio, I steer clear


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## Kaynar (Mar 24, 2017)

I've bought several Win10 Keys for under 35 EUros with Kingiun protections and taxes included, they all worked


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## jboydgolfer (Mar 24, 2017)

Kaynar said:


> 35 EUros with Kingiun protections and taxes included, they all worked



i think the question is not that they Did, or Do work, but rather Will they Continue to do so.


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## alucasa (Mar 24, 2017)

I have few keys with them, one of it being Windows 10 pro key. I think it's about 2 years old now. Haven't had it revoked.... yet.

Also sold a NUC with a key from them a while ago on Ebay. Haven't heard a peep from the buyer.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Mar 27, 2017)

alucasa said:


> I have few keys with them, one of it being Windows 10 pro key. I think it's about 2 years old now. Haven't had it revoked.... yet.
> 
> Also sold a NUC with a key from them a while ago on Ebay. Haven't heard a peep from the buyer.


at that point even if it does get revoked, its cheap enough to just buy another.


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## alucasa (Mar 27, 2017)

For Ebay sales, having a windows key registered to any built machine is a huge bonus and makes sales go quickly, so I try to add (cheap) keys to'em. I add additional 50 or so to the price anyway if I do.


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Kinguin is no different than ebay, its a platform. 99% of people selling are cool, you always get the odd crook, but kinguin will protect you for years. even if your code gets revoked a year down the line for whatever reason they will refund you.
Its totally legit and safe. People get cheap codes from bundles, from low priced regions, gifts they dont want, games on sale, and post them to resell them. 
A lot of pubs even get a cut form Kinguin for their games sold. 
Everything else you hear is morons who are clueless and engage in ignorant fearmongering.


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## R-T-B (Apr 21, 2017)

> Everything else you hear is morons who are clueless and engage in ignorant fearmongering.



The fact that selling out of region is illegal is not "ignorant fearmongering."  Almost all the keys there are at the very best case, being sold from a cheaper region to a more expensive one.


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## qubit (Apr 21, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> The fact that selling out of region is illegal is not "ignorant fearmongering."  Almost all the keys there are at the very best case, being sold from a cheaper region to a more expensive one.


Personally, I think region restrictions should be illegal, so I'd have no moral problem buying a cheaper so-called "out of region" key. The only thing I care about is that the key is likely to get revoked down the line because of this and I just don't need the hassle. Therefore, I'll stick to Amazon, Steam etc to ensure this doesn't happen to me and pay more for the peace of mind.

I've got well over 200 games on Steam, all bought legitimately, so not a single one has had its licence revoked, hence buying legit is worth it.


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## jboydgolfer (Apr 21, 2017)

Jon Wade said:


> Everything else you hear is morons who are clueless and engage in ignorant fearmongering.



i think its a bit ignorant (*presumptuous*)of You(respectfully) to assume if a user has a bad experience and tells other possible buyers ,they then are morons, or fear mongering.  Sometimes people just report the facts to others(not saying there are NO bad apples , but certainly I wouldnt go to the other end of the spectrum as You have). Personally i cant say anything bad about this specific site, BUT i know for a fact others here can legitimately(i.e. based on Factual personal experience & not rumor), and I trust that they are not all fear mongering. Maybe You should try to put the same faith You do in shady key reselling sites, to the users who patronize them(unless you work for this site ofc ,in which case it would explain your "one sidedness"). ​


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

it's definitely not "illegal" I've never heard someone get arrested for it.
Also you can openly buy a game from the Canada steam shop where its 15% cheaper, and send it to a friend in the USA.
or you can buy the game, and decide to sell it to whoever will buy it. They are region free regions, just cheaper.
So technically they dont have regional restrictions to begin with.

Also tons of codes come form bundles and such, so called leftovers. People are free to sell the products they bought and own.

The ignorant fearmongering is people who think that kinguin is a shop selling "stolen" keys.

As for the revoke thing Qubit mentioned, like I said kinguin will refund you even if your code gets revoked years down the line.

Edit: @jboy, as I said by igorant fearmongering I am refering to poeple who do not even understand what kinguin is, ie, a platform. They assume its some shady shop stealing keys all over the net and selling them to people. 
and I am not one sided at all, nor work for anyone. I'm just giving my opinion base don my experience and understanding. 



R-T-B said:


> The fact that selling out of region is illegal is not "ignorant fearmongering."  Almost all the keys there are at the very best case, being sold from a cheaper region to a more expensive one.


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## jboydgolfer (Apr 21, 2017)

Jon Wade said:


> it's definitely not "illegal" I've never heard someone get arrested for it.



 I think that's why the word "shady"  gets used a lot in conjunction with key reselling sites. As you pointed out people don't tend to get arrested for circumventing tax charges/laws at least not for such small amounts as were speaking about. However, it certainly doesn't  help a store look legitimate when they operate in the so called gray zone. For example I wouldn't trust kingwin over steam not even over green man gaming or humble bundle. Because they don't resell keys , which by nature has a certain "shady" vibe to it.  To be fair it's not the site in particular it's the business. For example, a company that sells porn may seem slimy and perverted, but if you were to remove the porn it would just be a retailer. My point is if you play in the mud your hands are going to get dirty. What the store ends up offering in the end is just the medium in which to sell the keys aka, facilitation(as you said like Ebay), and the Guarantee that said keys wont be voided, or someway taken from you after purchase (since you are buying it from private sellers and not the site itself), and there are people who *are willing* to risk buying a key and trusting a site to back that purchase , and there are people *who arent willing* to trust the site. Personally, i have been burned by Other sites like them, so i avoid all resellers, but thats my choice, and my right, if your cool with ptting your faith in them to honor the transaction, then you'll save a few bucks on a game (as long as your faith wasnt misplaced OFC).


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Absolutely. At the end of the day those places you mentioned are actual shops selling at their own responsibilities and guarantees. Which you pay extra for. 
Kinguin and other "grey markets" are just like ebay. its the average joe selling his stuff. the vast majority is totally fine. on a very rare occasion you'll get a crook, but the site will protect and support you in those cases. 
That is my experience. up to you whether you want to buy from a source you feel comfortable with or pay 40-50% less form those. 
But to say that it is a shop run by some kind of theft mob and spread that around shows a total lack of understanding. 



jboydgolfer said:


> I think that's why the word "shady"  gets used a lot in conjunction with key reselling sites. As you pointed out people don't tend to get arrested for circumventing tax charges/laws at least not for such a small amounts as were speaking about. However, it certainly doesn't  help a store look legitimate when they operate in the so called gray zone. For example I wouldn't trust kingwin over steam not even over green man gaming or humble bundle. Because they don't resell keys , which by nature has a certain "shady" vibe to it.  To be fair it's not the site in particular it's the business. For example, a company that sells porn may seem slimy and perverted, but if you were to remove the porn it would just be a retailer. My point is if you play in the mud your hands are going to get dirty


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 21, 2017)

Jon Wade said:


> The ignorant fearmongering is people who think that kinguin is a shop selling "stolen" keys.


They did.  Ubisoft and EA both revoked massive blocks of keys that were purchased with stolen credit cards a while back.

And really, that's beside the point.  Who makes games? Developers.  Does buying gray market get any money into the hands of the developers? Not likely.  There is no "used" in the digital market.  Gray market is as bad as piracy as far as the health of the market is concerned.

Gray market never reveals its sources but the above links strongly suggest most of their keys come from laundering dirty money.


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Some devs sell on kinguin actually. Others do have profit sharing schemes with them. But those are outliers.
Devs might not make money from the resale, but they make it from the initial sale. And that beats torrenting it if nothing else.
I am just playing devils advocate here. I'm not saying grey markets are the best thing, nor do i think they're all bad. if they exist at all, they must be balancing something out.
Wholesalers buy at much lower cost and resell with profit. Not much different.

And referring to your EA example, They, Kinguin, didnt sell those keys. Thats th epoint I am trying to make. Someone sold them on that site.
And they got nothing out of it, other than FBI attention.
They cant cash out for 30 days after the sale, and all their personal information are on file with kinguin. 



FordGT90Concept said:


> They did.  Ubisoft and EA both revoked massive blocks of keys that were purchased with stolen credit cards a while back.
> 
> And really, that's beside the point.  Who makes games? Developers.  Does buying gray market get any money into the hands of the developers? Not likely.  There is no "used" in the digital market.  Gray market is as bad as piracy as far as the health of the market is concerned.


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## R-T-B (Apr 21, 2017)

> it's definitely not "illegal" I've never heard someone get arrested for it.



How many people get arrested for piracy vs the actual crime rate of it?

You know the point I'm getting at.  You don't have to be arrested for something for it to be illegal.  Fact is it is a violation of the EULA they signed, and thus illegal.  There is no debate there, at least for MS keys.


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## Solaris17 (Apr 21, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They did.  Ubisoft and EA both revoked massive blocks of keys that were purchased with stolen credit cards a while back.
> 
> And really, that's beside the point.  Who makes games? Developers.  Does buying gray market get any money into the hands of the developers? Not likely.  There is no "used" in the digital market.  Gray market is as bad as piracy as far as the health of the market is concerned.
> 
> Gray market never reveals its sources but the above links strongly suggest most of their keys come from laundering dirty money.



I mean to be fair finding a good fence is hard. If you know one drop me a PM.


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## R-T-B (Apr 21, 2017)

> Personally, I think region restrictions should be illegal, so I'd have no moral problem buying a cheaper so-called "out of region" key.



I agree, but the threads title does not ask if this is moral, only "legal."


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

It is not illegal though. I've never heard of that being a crime.
Besides that, There are no regional restrictions, the games are region free.
If I live in Canada where my games are priced at $30. I buy a bunch of them and post them on kinguin for $35. The European bought it from me cause it cost $40 in Europe.
What exactly have I done that is illegal there?

Steam allows you to trade games, it happens daily by the millions. 
Someone in canada will trade you a steam gift for your CSGO skins (which you buy with cash) 
it is completely legit to do that. 



R-T-B said:


> I agree, but the threads title does not ask if this is moral, only "legal."


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 21, 2017)

Most of the keys are Steam, right?
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/


> F. Steam Authorized Resellers
> 
> You may purchase a Subscription through an authorized reseller of Valve. The "Product Key" accompanying such purchase will be used to activate your Subscription. If you purchase a Subscription from an authorized reseller of Valve, you agree to direct all questions regarding the Product Key to that reseller.


Unauthorized resellers (Kinguin, G2A, etc.) violate Steam's Subscriber Agreement.  That's a contract which can be enforced by a court of law.

Gray market is legal because, as far as I'm aware, it does not break laws (copyright, theft of property, etc.).


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Which part says this about unauthorized resellers in the SSA? I didnt see it.
Also, you are allowed to trade steam gifts. it is totally legit to do that. Millions of people do it on a daily basis in steam itself.
The word trade is used, but it is in fact a sale. I am buying this game with CSGO keys or skins which I have purchased with money, those are marketable items with cash value.
Steam doesnt mind that resale cause they get a cut of the transaction heh, but steam is kinguin in this scenario.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Most of the keys are Steam, right?
> http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/
> 
> Unauthorized resellers (Kinguin, G2A, etc.) violate Steam's Subscriber Agreement.  That's a contract which can be enforced by a court of law.
> ...


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 21, 2017)

It's through omission.  Valve is under no obligation to honor any key obtained through unauthorized means.

There's a section of the SSA expressly for trading.  Specifically, you can only trade within the Steam platform itself.  Valve will not honor any trades made outside of Steam.  If money is involved, it has to go through the market where fees and taxes are collected.


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## jboydgolfer (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm almost certain that somewhere in the websites user agreement ,it says that the buyer is obligated to know their own countries laws on the purchase of resold keys ,and that no responsibility is accepted  on behalf of the site for any transgression made during an illegal transaction. I'm sure that it is very much like amazon, except  on Amazon if an item you're trying to purchase is illegal in your particular country or region you are physically unable to make the purchase and that's exactly what kingwin does not do,because if they did the whole Lure of the site would be lost(i.e cheap keys). Which means they facilitate illegal purchases in essence


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Maybe thats how you saw it through omission, but laws are clearly written.
Right, thats exactly it. Valve wants you to resell within steam so they can get a cut on both sides, but you are reselling none the less.
And of course valve frowns upon you reselling outside of its boundaries. Cause their platform doesnt profit.
But this related to their own business,  not in the realm of law.

And they can easily stop it but they dont. Checkout Opskins.com making millions out of resale of steam items. nobody bats an eye. 



> Pretty sure Valve will not let you trade money in a trade.  It's always digital item for digital item.  If money is involved, it has to go through the market where fees and taxes are collected.



Skins ARE money. they are marketable. you can even put them on steam market or elsewhere like on opskins and get cash money out of them. Just like you buy them for money. What is the difference?

And no it is not enforceable in a court of law, or else half the steam users would be in court, because they are the ones selling on G2A and kinguin. The best that can happen is your steam account being locked, which has never ever happened for a resale.



FordGT90Concept said:


> It's through omission.  Valve is under no obligation to honor any key obtained through unauthorized means.
> 
> There's a section of the SSA expressly for trading.  Specifically, you can only trade within the Steam platform itself.  Valve will not honor any trades made outside of Steam.  It's a market Valve controls completely.
> 
> Pretty sure Valve will not let you trade money in a trade.  It's always digital item for digital item.  If money is involved, it has to go through the market where fees and taxes are collected.


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

no mate there isnt. if it were they would lock all the regions. it would take them 5min to do so. EU, NA among others are left region free. It means the games can be redeemed anywhere in the world.

I get games from a friedn in Canada on Steam itself and he trades them to me for sometimes $10 - $15 cheaper than in the EU, cause they are cheaper there. I do that within steam itself. in a trade window.
All the regions are region free and trade among them is allowed.
Kinguin is also offering region free games. you cannot buy a cheap indian steam game even if you do you wont be able to redeem it on steam. It doesnt work this way. Not since early 2014 anyway.




jboydgolfer said:


> I'm almost certain that somewhere in the websites user agreement ,it says that the buyer is obligated to know their own countries laws on the purchase of resold keys ,and that no responsibility is accepted  on behalf of the site for any transgression made during an illegal transaction.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 21, 2017)

Click on anything at opskins.com and it says you need Steam installed.  I assume they take a cut off the top of Valve's and the publisher's cut.  In other words, they're an unnecessary middleman.



Jon Wade said:


> no mate there isnt. if it were they would lock all the regions. it would take them 5min to do so. EU, NA among others are left region free. It means the games can be redeemed anywhere in the world.


Because keys purchased in EU and NA tend to be the most expensive in the world.  If someone buys it in the USA and gifts it to someone in India, they made more off the US purchase than had it sold in India.


As demonstrated, many big publishers have revoked massive blocks of keys for various reasons.  Those are not keys that were purchased through authorized resellers or Valve directly.  Generally, they don't revoke keys because they fear the public backlash for doing so.


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Well you need Steam installed for steam games too.
not sure I got your point.

Yeah and those are the same keys sold on kinguin and elsewhere. They are region free ones.
Again not sure I get your point.

You cant sell a game you bought in india to someone in the USA, they wont be able to redeem it. Therefore they wont get paid for it.


There are still often large disparities in price between NA keys.
Like Canada and USA for example. Both region free both NA, but price difference.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Click on anything at opskins.com and it says you need Steam installed.  I assume they take a cut off the top of Valve's and the publisher's cut.  In other words, they're an unnecessary middleman.
> 
> 
> Because keys purchased in EU and NA tend to be the most expensive in the world.  If someone buys it in the USA and gifts it to someone in India, they made more off the US purchase than had it sold in India.


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 21, 2017)

You can trade without Steam installed but you require a Steam account and agreement with the SSA before you can trade, no matter the medium.

Not sure what you're point is either.  I merely confirmed that what SSA says is true: even sites that work outside of Steam still require agreement with SSA.  It is Valve's ecosystem.  Valve keeps a ironfist on SSA trades.  It's game trades which are left up to the discretion of individual publishers where policy is more lax which, in turn, allows gray market sites to exist.


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## INSTG8R (Apr 21, 2017)

I have almost 400 games on Steam alone not including the other platforms and I'd say at least 75% were bought on G2play. I've had one "bad" key for ME3 out of all of them.


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## Jon Wade (Apr 21, 2017)

Well i got 6447 games on steam, and about 200 were purchased in my own steam country shop 
the rest is trades, kinguin and others.
In fact I've started with $50 in 2012. And I never paid a single dollar out of pocket since.
Every game I own is profit on trades.
I am absolute pro in steam games trading, and I know Steam, SSA, Kinguin, and trading inside out.



INSTG8R said:


> I have almost 400 games on Steam alone not including the other platforms and I'd say at least 75% were bought on G2play. I've had one "bad" key for ME3 out of all of them.


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## Jwb473 (Feb 13, 2019)

My Windows 10 Pro key does not work. I reinstalled a fresh version of Windows and it will not accept the key. There is no option to activate by phone as is stated in the instructions. There is no customer service, only a computer to chat with that does not understand the problem. DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY!!!


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## MrGenius (Feb 13, 2019)

Sounds like PEBKAC to me.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 13, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Some of the games are legit.  For example, the ones that come as game vouchers with GPUs.  People get on there and sell those all the time, and they activate without a problem.
> 
> I'd wouldn't buy Windows on there though.



I bought my Windows 7 N key from a high rep user on Reddit about 4 years ago for $15, but I think he has extra keys from whatever company he works at. Much smaller scale than those other sites.

I ended up turning that key into free upgrade to Win 10 N key, and it has worked perfect for 4 years now with 0 deactivations or issues, and the N key is so great because I get none of the bloat crap pre-installed. ^^

@jboydgolfer


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## JorgeRod (Feb 13, 2019)

Got there: Windows 10 pro, Battlefield V, Strange Brigade, Need for Speed Payback, Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus, Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands, and more... never had problems.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 13, 2019)

PSA: Kinguin is one of the less interesting keysellers these days, in the same range as G2A. Additional payment schemes (like protection and what not) and relatively low user ratings.

My point of entry is generally here...
https://www.allkeyshop.com/blog/


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