# AMD Contemplates Bundled Water-Cooling for Some FX-Series Processors



## btarunr (Aug 11, 2011)

The certified fan-heatsink that comes with the CPU is perhaps the first thing enthusiasts get rid of, from their machines. The bundled heatsinks are almost never built in a way that allows you to squeeze the most out of your CPU. It looks like AMD is deciding whether to change this notion with some of its top-tier 8-core "Bulldozer" FX-series processors. The company reportedly plans to bundle self-contained liquid-based coolers with their processors. 

Over the last couple of years, consumers have taken a liking for $100 self-contained CPU water coolers, kits that include the block with a motor, pre-fitted tubing to the radiator, which latches onto the common 120 mm rear fan hole of most cases. Bundling water coolers indicate two things: firstly, that the top-end FX-series chips will be hot, secondly, AMD is trying to woo enthusiasts. AMD could have asked its cooler OEMs to come up with a heavy tower-type fan-heatsink, but it chose water-cooling instead. So the move to pack water-cooling could either work for AMD's image (wooing enthusiasts), or against it (to convey that FX chips are so hot that nothing short of water-cooling is fit for them). Pictured below is a popular self-contained water-cooler by Corsair.





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


----------



## arterius2 (Aug 11, 2011)

This is fine as long as I don't see a $100 jump in price.


----------



## n-ster (Aug 11, 2011)

if only on the flagship models, this makes sense


----------



## cheesy999 (Aug 11, 2011)

if this is included in the price or with only a small bump, i can see people choosing these even if sandy/ivy bridge performs better


----------



## NC37 (Aug 11, 2011)

So that means it runs too hot for them to be able to cool them via a cheap crap cooler. So instead of losing more money on better coolers, they recognized their target audience likely uses water cooling. So...slap in a cheap water cooler and make everyone happy. Plus you get a sales pitch with that. Highly doubt they'll run too hot to be able to be cooled on air alone.


----------



## cheesy999 (Aug 11, 2011)

NC37 said:


> So that means it runs too hot for them to be able to cool them via a cheap crap cooler. So instead of losing more money on better coolers, they recognized their target audience likely uses water cooling. So...slap in a cheap water cooler and make everyone happy. Plus you get a sales pitch with that. Highly doubt they'll run too hot to be able to be cooled on air alone.



The TDP on the high ends is 150W isn't it?

Were you expecting the stock cooler to work on that?

Also remember AMD's current stock cooler is really bad compared to intel's


----------



## burtram (Aug 11, 2011)

I'd totally buy one, and use the water cooler for my HTPC.


----------



## erocker (Aug 11, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> The TDP on the high ends is 150W isn't it?
> 
> Were you expecting the stock cooler to work on that?
> 
> Also remember AMD's current stock cooler is really bad compared to intel's



The all aluminum Intel "puck" cooler no. The aluminum and copper "puck" cooler yes. I'm not sure what Intel is using currently. AMD's are thermally different from Intel as well, not sure about Bulldozer though.


----------



## CDdude55 (Aug 11, 2011)

That's awesome!

They should manufacture the flagship models with the closed loop water cooling kits and have a second SKU without it for those that don't want to spend extra just for the cooler.


----------



## faramir (Aug 11, 2011)

*Unlikely to be as good as it sounds*

As mentioned on another website this is probably going to be one of those crappy low-cost systems that are already on the market with 1500-2000 rpm fan. They're just trying to hop on the "liquid cooling" gimmick bandwagon ...

Why not bundle new CPUs with high quality air cooler with identical, yet lower rpm fan instead ? Sub-1300 rpm should be doable so less noise at the same cost.


----------



## ensabrenoir (Aug 11, 2011)

Really great idea but don't want to hear anything about bd or fx execpt AVAILABLE NOW


----------



## seronx (Aug 11, 2011)

Not going to happen for the models coming out, it's going to be pretty hard fitting those in those tin boxes

I can see this happening if they are going to sell TWKR models for $1000


----------



## repman244 (Aug 11, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> The TDP on the high ends is 150W isn't it?



125W if we can trust the info we have.


----------



## seronx (Aug 11, 2011)

repman244 said:


> 125W if we can trust the info we have.



It's actually below 125W TDP

Turbo Core 2.0 works to 125 TDP

so if you turn off Turbo Core you will never hit the 125W TDP


----------



## Hotobu (Aug 11, 2011)

I wish that they'd just give us the option to buy processors without heatsinks.


----------



## Jstn7477 (Aug 11, 2011)

I almost thought some naughty admin deleted my post, but then realized that a new thread opened up. 

Anyway, I have mixed feelings about an LCS being included instead of a fan. Not all cases have 120mm fan grilles (mATX build anyone?) and if the thing blows up or leaks, it will be taking out hardware most likely. Anyone remember the Tom's Hardware videos of heatsinks being removed from PIII (370) and Athlon (462) systems while playing the game? The Pentiums always downclocked and saved themselves, while the AMD processors went until they caught on fire and died. I even lost one core of a skt. 939 Athlon X2 due to an improperly installed heatsink, so I hope AMD has some better protective measures nowadays.



Hotobu said:


> I wish that they'd just give us the option to buy processors without heatsinks.



Then someone might come along and say "My 8310P doesn't need a HSF since it didn't come with one" but who knows. Even if you give someone a HSF, it's not guaranteed that they'll use it, as in the case of some guy buying an i7 975X and using it a week before his new system died, wondering what that burning smell was, and that he maybe should have used the included fan. :shadedshu


----------



## jpierce55 (Aug 11, 2011)

It looks like AMD is testing the waters everyplace they can.


----------



## Casecutter (Aug 11, 2011)

Meh, considering coolers like the Antec KUHLER H2O 620, or similar Corsair CWCH60 aren’t enough to provide real strong over-clocking, it’s an expensive gimmick that’s only going to suffice like stock heat-pipe (H-P) coolers not much different than those included with a 965 do today.  More often at idle such water coolers are good and quite, though at load the first iterations could provide a ruckus. While todays versions are better there's only so many BTU's that can be effectivly transfered by mean of such 120mm type radiators and reasonable air movement. 

What’s interesting is that can AMD even consider this as a cost vs. market value, if their cost is say 30% higher than a current H-P cooler cost them to include.  How cheap are Water-cooler to produce?

Me I say stop adding coolers, just make sure it positively will shut-down at a controlled temperature, like they already do.  Before damage and say no warranty if you really fry it. No different than it is right now if you’re an idiot and run it without or insufficient cooling how does AMD deal with that.  Leave responsibility on user to choose the right cooler for their particular application and just have a list of authorized coolers.  We’re all big boys; I rather have the option and not pay more for something I don’t intend to use.


----------



## Hayder_Master (Aug 11, 2011)

Extra money for a cooler only enough for stock speed and turbo boost and not useful for high overclocking, it will big waste.


----------



## jpierce55 (Aug 11, 2011)

Hayder_Master said:


> Extra money for a cooler only enough for stock speed and turbo boost and not useful for high overclocking, it will big waste.



It is all gimmick, if not they would just have an option for an incredible air cooler.


----------



## CDdude55 (Aug 11, 2011)

Jstn7477 said:


> I almost thought some naughty admin deleted my post, but then realized that a new thread opened up.
> 
> Anyway, I have mixed feelings about an LCS being included instead of a fan. Not all cases have 120mm fan grilles (mATX build anyone?) and if the thing blows up or leaks, it will be taking out hardware most likely.



A lot of mATX cases still generally have a single 120mm fan mount at the front, you can just throw the radiator there(unless the rad is to thick).

Closed loop water coolers tends to be much safer then custom water cooling so i wouldn't worry much about something going wrong, then again we really haven't seen AMD's closed loop cooler(assuming they actually go through with it), so it's hard to tell. But from the perspective of seeing Corsairs closed loop water coolers, i wouldn't worry, they're strong.


----------



## xBruce88x (Aug 11, 2011)

Hayder_Master said:


> Extra money for a cooler only enough for stock speed and turbo boost and not useful for high overclocking, it will big waste.




well we don't know any performance specs of the water cooler they had in mind, the one pictured is just an example. sounds like a cool idea though (no pun intended)

i'm guessing corsair or asetek


----------



## fullinfusion (Aug 11, 2011)

Thats cool to hear but they have some big boots to fill if they plan on taking on Corsair's self contained water solution.


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Aug 11, 2011)

All they'd do is use a proven asetek or coolit with an AMD logo. Wouldn't have anything to do with corsair.


----------



## Ravenas (Aug 11, 2011)

Looks like AMD has found the fastest way to receive negative publicity. Bundle a water cooler with a processor so every joe shmuck can fry their computer and then complain about horrible warranties and faulty tech support.

Bad idea in my opinion...


----------



## Halk (Aug 11, 2011)

fullinfusion said:


> Thats cool to hear but they have some big boots to fill if they plan on taking on Corsair's self contained water solution.



Corsair just get someone else to make it, same people as make it for Asus. Likely AMD would go to the same place and get theirs.

Personally I don't like it because those water coolers aren't as good as high end air, or as quiet or as cheap.


----------



## seronx (Aug 11, 2011)

Ravenas said:


> Looks like AMD has found the fastest way to receive negative publicity. Bundle a water cooler with a processor so every joe shmuck can fry their computer and then complain about horrible warranties and faulty tech support.
> 
> Bad idea in my opinion...



AMD Chips don't fry anymore

and again this is highly unlikely(LCS in a tin box is impossible)







I don't see it happening


----------



## devguy (Aug 12, 2011)

jpierce55 said:


> It looks like AMD is testing the waters everyplace they can.



Hmmm...


----------



## Ravenas (Aug 12, 2011)

seronx said:


> AMD Chips don't fry anymore
> 
> and again this is highly unlikely(LCS in a tin box is impossible)
> 
> ...



How much you wanna bet me that I can fry a amd chip with water?


----------



## TheLaughingMan (Aug 12, 2011)

They could get away with this if the bump in cost is say $65 or less. That to me seems like a sweet spot for people to consider it a deal over buying your own at $100+. Although I honestly don't see this happening due to manufacturing restriction.

I agree with those that think a beefier air cooler period should be used. This would ensure every customer gets a "decent" cooler and might actually considering keeping it. If they can get even a small percentage of customers to keep the stock cooler because it isn't the complete BS we are use to, it would be a small win. Especially if they can do it with on a $5 or $10 bump in price. It would also be something they could easily design themselves.

It doesn't have to be a tower either. AMD is also obviously concerned about RAM and case clearance issues. Dear AMD, this is all you have to do. Take the cooler you give out with Phenom II X6 CPU's spread the 4 copper pipes it has out more to get better heat distribution and increase the size of those pipes by 2mm. Increase the area of the aluminum fins up to just a few milimeters shy of the CPU area (say the distance away you normally find between RAM slots). The go up to a 92mm or 100mm fan. Slant the cooler slightly to get the air flow at least toward the back or top of the case and you are done.

Something like this should be great with a faster fan:


----------



## fullinfusion (Aug 12, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> All they'd do is use a proven asetek or coolit with an AMD logo. Wouldn't have anything to do with corsair.


I used Corsair as an example as most think its better then Cool it 

If AMD would incorporate a tec into the radiator that would be sick!


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Aug 12, 2011)

Ravenas said:


> How much you wanna bet me that I can fry a amd chip with water?



I can do you one better and fry one with any liquid you choose. Same goes for Intel because I'm multi-talented.


----------



## m4gicfour (Aug 12, 2011)

Could be interesting, if they go with the idea. When I upgrade to BD or its sucessor I know my HTPC could sure use the stock LCS from this, and my PII X4 for a nice bump in performance.



Damn_Smooth said:


> I can do you one better and fry one with any liquid you choose. Same goes for Intel because I'm multi-talented.



Nah, I prefer fried potatoes to fried CPUs. Much tastier. Cheaper, too.


----------



## Hotobu (Aug 12, 2011)

Jstn7477 said:


> Then someone might come along and say "My 8310P doesn't need a HSF since it didn't come with one" but who knows. Even if you give someone a HSF, it's not guaranteed that they'll use it, as in the case of some guy buying an i7 975X and using it a week before his new system died, wondering what that burning smell was, and that he maybe should have used the included fan. :shadedshu



Eh no, that's what warning labels are for a big red label on the outside, and on the inside on top of the processor would be sufficient to absolve AMD of any responsibilities.


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Aug 12, 2011)

m4gicfour said:


> Nah, I prefer fried potatoes to fried CPUs. Much tastier. Cheaper, too.



I see your potatoes, and raise you chicken!!!


----------



## bear jesus (Aug 12, 2011)

It almost seams like a good idea but i would only say so if it cost less than buying them separate but also only if there is an option to buy without this cooler.

Many people including myself have one of these type of coolers on both AMD and Intel chips so i can see why it could seam like a good idea to someone within the company but if/how it works out only time will tell.


----------



## m4gicfour (Aug 12, 2011)

Damn_Smooth said:


> I see your potatoes, and raise you chicken!!!



Okay, that's it. Now I'm off to KFC.


----------



## newfellow (Aug 12, 2011)

arterius2 said:


> This is fine as long as I don't see a $100 jump in price.



This is fine as long the CPU still ain't 40-44c with the water cooling. Would be really nasty when you buy new hardware and notice that the CPU runs twice as hot on already high end cooling which you can't upgrade.


----------



## Tank (Aug 12, 2011)

i don't think it's because they'll be hot, i think it's because they are confident they'll oc like beasts.

that said roll on september  can't wait to finish my upgrade

already got my ram and crosshair V standing by


----------



## twilyth (Aug 12, 2011)

I admire your commitment.  I might want to do that too, except I already got burned with the 1155 recall.  Plus I haven't gotten the feeling that there will be any problem with the availability of motherboards.  IDK.


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm waiting for the chip to release too. Besides the lack of funds, I want to make sure it's as big of a jump as I think it's going to be.


----------



## Assimilator (Aug 12, 2011)

Casecutter said:


> Meh, considering coolers like the Antec KUHLER H2O 620, or similar Corsair CWCH60 aren’t enough to provide real strong over-clocking...



My 130W QX9650 running at a 1GHz overclock under an H50 would disagree. Temps average 35 degrees and peak at 50 on the worst summer days.


----------



## Halk (Aug 12, 2011)

Assimilator said:


> My 130W QX9650 running at a 1GHz overclock under an H50 would disagree. Temps average 35 degrees and peak at 50 on the worst summer days.



Either you're right and all the reviews are wrong....

The only way this will work out for AMD is if they shift enough watercoolers that they can bring the price down so far that it it's a bargain.


----------



## Rowsol (Aug 12, 2011)

I good air cooler would be so much better...


----------



## Hotobu (Aug 12, 2011)

Halk said:


> Either you're right and all the reviews are wrong....
> 
> The only way this will work out for AMD is if they shift enough watercoolers that they can bring the price down so far that it it's a bargain.



What reviews? Every review I've ever seen for these say that they perform very well. The problem is that there tend to be cheaper less noisy air coolers.


----------



## Halk (Aug 12, 2011)

Hotobu said:


> What reviews? Every review I've ever seen for these say that they perform very well. The problem is that there tend to be cheaper less noisy air coolers.



Go and read them again. They're not as good, not as quiet and not as cheap as air cooling.

Edit : If it helps I'll be even clearer.

Top end air cooling is overpriced, and the performance you gain is very slight over 'reasonably' priced mid/high end. If AMD are going to come up with something here then they need to sell a massive volume of them (relative to normal aftermarket cooler sales) in order to bring the price down so that they can compete with mid end air, because if they can get the price down to a 40 dollar premium over OEM CPUs then that's the point at which I believe people will be interested.

Someone who is going to spend a relatively large amount on a self contained watercooling solution for their CPU isn't going to be happy at only getting a $10 discount, but being unable to choose the manufacturer or model.


----------



## de.das.dude (Aug 12, 2011)

now only if they gave the top of the CPU a mirror chrome finish!


----------



## Steevo (Aug 12, 2011)

Hotobu said:


> I wish that they'd just give us the option to buy processors without heatsinks.



AMD Phenom II X6 1035T Thuban 2.6GHz 6 x 512KB L2 ...


We can. But some of these are only the low end made for custom only cooling solutions.



I actually like the Phenom heatpipe cooler, but for the same amount of money a setup like this 

XIGMATEK AIO-S80DP All-in-one liquid cooling syste...


Or one with a integrated motor to run the pump and fan with magnetic coupling and temp controlled off the board would be awesome enough for most people to want.



TheLaughingMan said:


> They could get away with this if the bump in cost is say $65 or less. That to me seems like a sweet spot for people to consider it a deal over buying your own at $100+. Although I honestly don't see this happening due to manufacturing restriction.
> 
> I agree with those that think a beefier air cooler period should be used. This would ensure every customer gets a "decent" cooler and might actually considering keeping it. If they can get even a small percentage of customers to keep the stock cooler because it isn't the complete BS we are use to, it would be a small win. Especially if they can do it with on a $5 or $10 bump in price. It would also be something they could easily design themselves.
> 
> ...





Everything you just said but no heat pipes other than a couple copper or rubber pipes to carry the coolant.


----------



## Casecutter (Aug 12, 2011)

Assimilator said:


> My 130W QX9650 running at a 1GHz overclock under an H50 would disagree. Temps average 35 degrees and peak at 50 on the worst summer days.


Really with the single stock fan? While how many other case fans?
When Frostytech (one of the most reputable data based sites I've ever come across) I trust their result and opinion.
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2564

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1025/1/
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-h50-fort120,2370.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/corsair-h50.html
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Antec-Kuhler-H2O-620-CPU-Cooler-Review/1233/1 
http://www.eteknix.com/cooling/antec-kuhler-h2o-620-liquid-cpu-cooler-review-1519/
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...ws.net/reviews/antebaconuhler_h2o_620_review/ 
http://www.madshrimps.be/articles/a...Khler-H2O-620-CPU-Cooler-Review#axzz1UpTl1HPZ 
Here against a Thermolab Trinity Heatsink. 
http://www.hardwarelook.com/review.php?id=43&page=1 
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2600



Halk said:


> Either you're right and all the reviews are wrong....
> 
> The only way this will work out for AMD is if they shift enough watercoolers that they can bring the price down so far that it it's a bargain.


That's what I read. There nice but what's the MTBF for the pump?  Pumps do fail!... take my word I hear many issues everyday in my line of work.  Such "entry systems" are more a novelty… for those who say I’ve get a water cooler.


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Aug 12, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> now only if they gave the top of the CPU a mirror chrome finish!



I really don't see why they don't do that. It's not like they cant include the information on the chip on a separate piece of paper.


----------



## Casecutter (Aug 12, 2011)

The XIGMATEK AIO-S80DP is an interesting concept, but it ignores the best attribute of water cool which is to move the BTU's out of the chassis.  It doesn’t provide anything over a decent cheap H-P cooler, while at 840g that's a lot of heft and complexity to hang on a mobo. Then it appears to have plenty of leak points, while not to mention the dissimilar metals and the corrosion effect. No OEM like AMD would sanction that.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Xigmatek/AIO_S80DP/1.html
http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2070


----------



## de.das.dude (Aug 12, 2011)

Damn_Smooth said:


> I really don't see why they don't do that. It's not like they cant include the information on the chip on a separate piece of paper.



why that?
if you notice, the marking now is shiny and the rest is dull.
they should just reverse it.
a little dull marking on a shiny mirror surface is nothing.


and no writing on paper wont speed up production processes where the chip is identified by computers on what is written on it


----------



## de.das.dude (Aug 12, 2011)

Ravenas said:


> How much you wanna bet me that I can fry a amd chip with water?



i wanna see you try. youre probably someone who is still stuck with AMDs old image.
free advise : grow up, the world is changing


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Aug 12, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> why that?
> if you notice, the marking now is shiny and the rest is dull.
> they should just reverse it.
> a little dull marking on a shiny mirror surface is nothing.
> ...



That's even better, it would even save money on whatever the dull coating is to reverse it.


----------



## cheesy999 (Aug 12, 2011)

Hotobu said:


> I wish that they'd just give us the option to buy processors without heatsinks.



it's a bit late for this response but, they do


----------



## Steevo (Aug 12, 2011)

Casecutter said:


> The XIGMATEK AIO-S80DP is an interesting concept, but it ignores the best attribute of water cool which is to move the BTU's out of the chassis.  It doesn’t provide anything over a decent cheap H-P cooler, while at 840g that's a lot of heft and complexity to hang on a mobo. Then it appears to have plenty of leak points, while not to mention the dissimilar metals and the corrosion effect. No OEM like AMD would sanction that.
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Xigmatek/AIO_S80DP/1.html
> http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2070



I didn't mean it specifically, but a cooler that uses a common motor for the fan and pump (much like the motor drives my pumps impeller with magnetic lock on a ceramic bearing) there would be almost no friction and the only moving parts would be the sealed impeller and a fan that should be quiet based on the fact there is little to it other than a couple pieces of steel two bearings and a housing, and a tiny bearing housing instead of a motor means no dead spot. 

So the pump impeller runs in the sink/block and has two hoses or copper tubes running into a 120mm radiator with a large fan and two rows in a single pass design. So 1/4" ID tubing would work, and a PWM driven motor would allow the board to change fan and pump RPM simultaneously for cooling on demand. A pull fan design would also help cool RAM, FETS and any bridge chips on the board. Having a cradle design for the motor and the fan suspended from the radiator and using copper tubes would mean no extra supports and any minor vibrations would be isolated.


I might have to design one myself if no one else will. There is that thermaltake guy around.......


----------



## Halk (Aug 12, 2011)

Erm. Just a bit of help for the hard of thinking. Watercooling does *nothing* magical.

It does two very simple things - it moves the heat somewhere else, and also spreads it out into (roughly) 700ml of water.

That's all. Nothing magic.

The very existance of watercooling by itself does nothing magical.

I'm repeating myself but I need to in order for people to understand it.

The advantages of watercooling are....

You can have a larger surface area of hot area to cool - using a radiator. Although you can do this with metal heatsinks the advantage water has is in the next sentence...

You can move the heat from inside the case to the outside edge easily. That way you can blow have cold air from outside the case go over the radiator, or you can have the air that's warmed slightly expelled straight out of the case.

You can combine the heat from multiple components and have them run through a single radiator/fan assembly. 2 120mm fans and a 120x2 radiator for example would do enough for most people, 120x3 is good and anything higher is a bit overkill.

The heat still needs to go into the room. You add pump noise and vibration. It's HUGELY more expensive.

I've been reading forums and reviews etc for around 10 years now, and I'm continually hit by the basic ignorance of people who believe that watercooling in itself is enough to bend the laws of physics.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 12, 2011)

Does this mean they need it because they run too hot ?


----------



## Steevo (Aug 12, 2011)

Halk said:


> Erm. Just a bit of help for the hard of thinking. Watercooling does *nothing* magical.
> 
> It does two very simple things - it moves the heat somewhere else, and also spreads it out into (roughly) 700ml of water.
> 
> ...




I have 360mm radiator, I run my quad and 5870 at full all the time folding at home, and it is in fact the thermal limit of my system. A larger radiator will allow for slower fan speed with the same cooling efficiency, so magical? Nope, but quiet with a shitload of TDP dissipation and low temps? Hells yeah. 150+ watts out of my quad and 250+ out of my 5870 and they stay cool. 

I appreciate your condescending post though. Thanks.


----------



## Halk (Aug 12, 2011)

Steevo said:


> I have 360mm radiator, I run my quad and 5870 at full all the time folding at home, and it is in fact the thermal limit of my system. A larger radiator will allow for slower fan speed with the same cooling efficiency, so magical? Nope, but quiet with a shitload of TDP dissipation and low temps? Hells yeah. 150+ watts out of my quad and 250+ out of my 5870 and they stay cool.
> 
> I appreciate your condescending post though. Thanks.



As should have been apparent, I was talking to people who didn't understand the concept.

Edit : Aha! My post followed yours. Sorry if it appeared I was replying to you, I was talking to the thread in general.


----------



## Casecutter (Aug 12, 2011)

Steevo said:


> (much like the motor drives my pumps impeller with magnetic lock on a ceramic bearing)


 You must mean a Laing “Danger Den pumps”… Got two different Laings’ doing work at the house right now, one for the hot water loop the other on an above ground pool very nice centrifugal pumps.  

Thought the pump in that Xigmatek is what essentially and Eheim fish tank pump that’s design isn’t as robust for +60°C.   You might have something in that the pump is in the radiator/fan module while just a water block on the CPU.  Then the combined magnetic drive for a pump and fan has merit.  Though the downside is the rpm of pump and fan are the same, so some big trade off of pump speed, size, dBa verse what the fan does relative to that same speed.  Get what I’m saying… I would considery having both independent control of the pump and fan provides the best means of controling of water flow and air flow, as sometimes one over the other or both can provide optimum heat transfer, while not amplify the sound profile.


----------



## Steevo (Aug 12, 2011)

Casecutter said:


> You must mean a Laing “Danger Den pumps”… Got two different Laings’ doing work at the house right now, one for the hot water loop the other on an above ground pool very nice centrifugal pumps.
> 
> Thought the pump in that Xigmatek is what essentially and Eheim fish tank pump that’s design isn’t as robust for +60°C.   You might have something in that the pump is in the radiator/fan module while just a water block on the CPU.  Then the combined magnetic drive for a pump and fan has merit.  Though the downside is the rpm of pump and fan are the same, so some big trade off of pump speed, size, dBa verse what the fan does relative to that same speed.  Get what I’m saying… I would considery having both independent control of the pump and fan provides the best means of controling of water flow and air flow, as sometimes one over the other or both can provide optimum heat transfer, while not amplify the sound profile.



Swiftech MCP655 12 VDC Pump Liquid Cooling System


That is what I'm running, one ceramic bearing lubricated by the coolant and magnetically driven by the motor, so one o-ring on the impeller case.


They could design a impeller and housing to meet the coolant flow needs for whatever RPM the fan is designed for also, so one motor is a simpler solution, magnetic drive simplifies the sealing of the system, but it does pose the problem of if a impeller gets hung up how do you know its turning? But with water the thermal mass you have to heat and the lower shutoff threshold you could implement would mean that you could run it without any coolant flow.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 13, 2011)

I would be okay with paying a 40-50 dollar premium on a chip for it to come with an H80 style cooling system.


----------



## twicksisted (Aug 13, 2011)

So basically what they saying is that theres no way a retail cooler will cool one of their top end CPU's and they need water to do it?


----------



## TheLaughingMan (Aug 13, 2011)

twicksisted said:


> So basically what they saying is that theres no way a retail cooler will cool one of their top end CPU's and they need water to do it?



no


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 13, 2011)

TheLaughingMan said:


> no



Are you sure?


----------



## erocker (Aug 13, 2011)

[H]@RD5TUFF said:


> Are you sure?



Reading the article, they talk about both AMD and Intel (SB E series) both using them. Not because they need them, but more for the enthusiast market that uses these type of CPU's.


----------



## Hotobu (Aug 13, 2011)

I still say that Intel and AMD need to strongly consider just selling processors. A good portion of folks wont be happy no matter what they pack in. Even if it were $10 off I'm sure there'd be hordes of people who'd be thrilled just to save a bit since they're going to throw their own solution on anyway. There's also the shipping side. For every processor + heatsink they could probably fit in 4 stand alone processors.


----------



## n-ster (Aug 13, 2011)

Hotobu said:


> I still say that Intel and AMD need to strongly consider just selling processors. A good portion of folks wont be happy no matter what they pack in. Even if it were $10 off I'm sure there'd be hordes of people who'd be thrilled just to save a bit since they're going to throw their own solution on anyway. There's also the shipping side. For every processor + heatsink they could probably fit in 4 stand alone processors.



OEM chips o.o They exists already


----------



## Strider (Aug 13, 2011)

I see so many assumptions saying "it must run hot". Assumption, as just about everyone should know, is the mother of all screw-ups. 

If you are going to be one of those people buying the flagship eight-core FX series processors, you're probably not going to leave it at stock. You're likely a gamer or other enthusiast who will be looking to push the processor beyond it's stock speeds. 

You're going to overclock, and thus you're going to replace the stock cooler anyway. No true enthusiast of any caliber uses stock cooling on an overclock. 

To me, it simply looks to me like AMD is targeting what will probably be their largest customer base when these eight-core beasts hit the market. Customers who will be tossing the stock cooler anyway in favor of either a high-end air cooler, or liquid cooling such as they are talking about here. 

Though high-end air coolers perform just as well as these stand-alone self contained liquid CPU cooling kits, they are also much larger. So to me, it makes sense to include them with the flagship processors in a kit. PIB I think they are calling it, Processor In a Box.

So chances are, there will be more than one version available. The PIB that will include whatever self-contained liquid cooling they decide to go with, and another that will contain a standard air-cooler for those people who will run at stock, or enthusiasts who already have aftermarket cooling they intend to use.

I for one do not need an included liquid cooler. The Thermaltake Frio I am running on my 1090T at 4.2GHz is more than enough to keep a Bulldozer FX cool based on the fact that this cooler, and many others like it, perform just as well as the self contained liquid coolers, such as the H60.


----------



## Hotobu (Aug 13, 2011)

n-ster said:


> OEM chips o.o They exists already



I know. I bought one for my first build, but I could not find an OEM SB chip for my current one.


----------



## twilyth (Aug 13, 2011)

Strider said:


> Though high-end air coolers perform just as well as these stand-alone self contained liquid CPU cooling kits, they are also much larger. So to me, it makes sense to include them with the flagship processors in a kit. PIB I think they are calling it, Processor In a Box.



Not everybody who wants to overclock necessarily wants to go balls-to-the-wall on their overclock.  When you consider that low-end solutions like the Hydro series does at least as well as high-end air, it makes sense for AMD and Intel to think about putting out a chip with a wc option.

After all, as was noted earlier, haven't they been providing better and better stock air coolers?  Why do you think they've done this?  For yuks?  Probably not.

There's also the fact that really pushing an oc requires a great deal of trial and error and therefore patience.  Skill is also part of the equation, but if you're trying to overclock a brand new chip, even skill isn't the primary ingredient.  That means that most people are going for the sweet spot - where you get a 15-30% oc without investing a few days in reboots.  But it also means that you don't need a 3 rad loop or TEC chillers.


----------



## DualAmdMP (Aug 13, 2011)

Hotobu said:


> I wish that they'd just give us the option to buy processors without heatsinks.



Or better yet, with out IHS


----------



## twicksisted (Aug 13, 2011)

Strider said:


> If you are going to be one of those people buying the flagship eight-core FX series processors, you're probably not going to leave it at stock. You're likely a gamer or other enthusiast who will be looking to push the processor beyond it's stock speeds.
> 
> You're going to overclock, and thus you're going to replace the stock cooler anyway. No true enthusiast of any caliber uses stock cooling on an overclock.



i disagree... people who buy the fastest processor are usually people who dont overclock but want the highest speed... if you overclock you can buy a slower chip for less and get faster speeds


----------



## CDdude55 (Aug 13, 2011)

twicksisted said:


> i disagree... people who buy the fastest processor are usually people who dont overclock but want the highest speed... if you overclock you can buy a slower chip for less and get faster speeds



Enthusiasts who can afford the best generally do buy the best and overclock.

Rarely do you have an average gamer or non enthusiasts drop thousands or hundreds of dollars for a CPU or GPU and won't overclock.


----------



## Wile E (Aug 14, 2011)

twicksisted said:


> i disagree... people who buy the fastest processor are usually people who dont overclock but want the highest speed... if you overclock you can buy a slower chip for less and get faster speeds


I disagree. 



CDdude55 said:


> Enthusiasts who can afford the best generally do buy the best and overclock.
> 
> Rarely do you have an average gamer or non enthusiasts drop thousands or hundreds of dollars for a CPU or GPU and won't overclock.



Yep. I bought the best to OC it. At the time, nothing else even came remotely close.


That said, what about those of use that already have high end cooling? I am only for this if it is just an option, and there's a cheaper retail package (with associated retail warranty) that leaves this out.


----------



## twicksisted (Aug 14, 2011)

Wile E said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You build your own rigs and overclock so of course for you would not buy a chip to keep it stock... we are the whole market... a lot of OEM's use the fastest CPU equivalents in their high end rigs and these are generally non-overclockable systems. Theres also a lot of business users, designers, sound/video editors etc who wouldnt dream of building their own pc or overclocking it but need the fastest available for their work.


----------



## Wile E (Aug 14, 2011)

You said people buying cpus. That, to me, inferred those that build their own, and are just buying the cpu itself. I wasn't aware you were referring to OEMs stuffing them in their systems, and people buying the entire system.


----------



## twicksisted (Aug 14, 2011)

aaah yes, i did say that but did not mean "buy" the processor on its own and put it in a system... i meant people who buy choose a system with a processor type inside, be it the fastest intel extreme/or AMD equivalent arent always doing it to overclock.


----------



## Wile E (Aug 14, 2011)

Well, that statement make a bit more sense to me then. I don't exactly know the numbers to confirm or deny, but I understand the logic.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

The 100 dollar question I guess is will they all come this way or will there be a non OEM version that comes minus the water cooling, and if they all come with the water cooling what will the price premium be?


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

The way I figure it, the price premium won't be much higher than $15-$20 over cost of the CPU without any cooling.

Figure this:

H50 is like $45 local. Retailers, Corsair, and Asetek, all make money from the sale of this unit. Actual cost to produce is very little.

AMD cuts out Corsair in thsi situation, in the least. They cna still offer retailers the same cash from other CPU salkes, and nothing from the actual water kit, making this a very good option.

Of course, i do not think that the ONLY way to run these chips would be with the supplied cooler, and if it's true that they REQUIRE such cooling, I'm not gonna be very impressed.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> The way I figure it, the price premium won't be much higher than $15-$20 over cost of the CPU without any cooling.
> 
> Figure this:
> 
> ...




Nor would I as IMO it would be like the old P4's, that said I can't say I am in favor of adding more than $50 to the retail price.


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

I don't think it'll add $50. If it does, clearly AMD needs to hire me to fire some others.

Still not quite impressed by thier marketing, but at least, it seems they are putting more effort as of late.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> I don't think it'll add $50. If it does, clearly AMD needs to hire me to fire some others.
> 
> Still not quite impressed by thier marketing, but at least, it seems they are putting more effort as of late.



What marketing, wasn't this little more than AMD saying "were thinking about it"?


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

That's marketing touching base with the consumer to get reactions, and decide if it's really feasible without ruining reputation, to me.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> That's marketing touching base with the consumer to get reactions, and decide if it's really feasible without ruining reputation, to me.



Meh, to me marketing would be a ad campaign to drum up some buzz.


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

That's what the whole "Return of FX" campaign is about.

[yt]M-kvLccaINM[/yt]


----------



## erocker (Aug 14, 2011)

I highly doubt we'll see these coolers bundled with any chip this year. Perhaps for the BD refresh or it will be a special bundle and priced accordingly.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> That's what the whole "Return of FX" campaign is about.
> 
> [yt]M-kvLccaINM[/yt]



Never heard of it.





erocker said:


> I highly doubt we'll see these coolers bundled with any chip this year. Perhaps for the BD refresh or it will be a special bundle and priced accordingly.



THat's the opinion I was kinda coming to, it seems kinda late for them to say "OH HEY how about some closed loop coolers. . .. .".


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

[H]@RD5TUFF said:


> THat's the opinion I was kinda coming to, it seems kinda late for them to say "OH HEY how about some closed loop coolers. . .. .".




How is it late? CPUs are not available to buy now, and aren't at stores, and would take very little time to package up and get out into the retail space.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> How is it late? CPUs are not available to buy now, and aren't at stores, and would take very little time to package up and get out into the retail space.



Doubtful, they are set to release in about a month or so, and should they wish to avoid supply issues they are likely stockpiling before release.


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

A month or so? AMD said this? Did i miss it?

Anyway, I do think a month is enough time, as not every chip is an FX.

But also, erocker could be very right...time will tell, I suppose.


----------



## [H]@RD5TUFF (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> A month or so? AMD said this? Did i miss it?
> 
> Anyway, I do think a month is enough time, as not every chip is an FX.
> 
> But also, erocker could be very right...time will tell, I suppose.



Exactly, while fun speculation is just that. . .


----------



## Halk (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> and if it's true that they REQUIRE such cooling, I'm not gonna be very impressed.



Nor would the laws of physics!

Assuming these chips are the standard format - heatspreader over the CPU cores - then the already published TDP (which they have to stick to since the boards are already out) means that it's not going to be a big issue for cooling.


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

I do not agree. My 1100T CPU is rated for 125W, and pulls 155W. I can make it pull 300W @ 4 GHz. AMD rates their CPUs by what they deem "Average Comsumed Power", not MAXIMUM power, as Intel does. AMD does rate maximum as well, I'm sure, but that's not the numbers we as consumers see.


----------



## pantherx12 (Aug 14, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> I do not agree. My 1100T CPU is rated for 125W, and pulls 155W.



What sort of conditions cause this to happen?

Would I explain why I have some stability issues even though temps are fine.

( cheap motherboard)


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 14, 2011)

IntelBurnTest is a good one for excessive power consumption that near noone will ever see.

AMD says this themselves in their whitepapers, so it's not like I'm just guessing about ACP/TDP, and what it means, unfortunately.


----------



## Halk (Aug 14, 2011)

My point was that we already have AMD chips at that TDP, so the new chips won't require watercooling.


----------



## damric (Aug 14, 2011)

H50 could not cool my Phenom II 955 at 4.1GHZ @100% for any appreciable duration as the small total amount of water in the loop became quickly saturated, even with maximum air flow to the radiator. My hexacore @4ghz lol'd at the H50.

However, I do think that these coolers will be fine for novice overclockers that won't push too far.

I'd take the bundled water cooler and stick it on my Athlon II HTPC.


----------



## Casecutter (Aug 15, 2011)

Steevo said:


> Swiftech MCP655 12 VDC Pump Liquid Cooling System
> 
> That is what I'm running, one ceramic bearing lubricated by the coolant and magnetically driven by the motor, so one o-ring on the impeller case.



That the Laing, just a privite label.


----------

