# Microsoft to Strip Windows 7 of IE and WMP for Europe, Abiding by Laws



## btarunr (Jun 12, 2009)

Software giant Microsoft has had disturbed relations with the EU markets following series of lawsuits to penalise the company's alleged anti-competitive market practices. Abiding by the courts' judgments, Microsoft will release two special types of its upcoming Windows 7 operating system to sell in Euro-zone countries. The OS will be devoid of Microsoft's Internet Explorer 8 (MSIE 8) web-browser, and Windows Media Player (WMP) 12 multimedia software. The first type is Windows 7 E, which lacks MSIE 8 alone. The second is Windows 7 N, which lacks MSIE 8 and WMP 12. The standard type which includes both, will not be available in Euro-zone countries. These types maintain their variant hierarchy (with the lineup starting from Home Basic to Ultimate). 

Furthermore, the copies of Windows 7 (E, N) will require a clean installation. Users will not be able to upgrade their existing Windows Vista installations with such types of Windows 7. This however, won't affect the standard version. The move puts users in a bit of inconvenience, since the OS will not remain web-capable as soon as it's installed. In an effort to make things as easy as possible for users, Microsoft is recommending OEM vendors to pre-install MSIE 8, or any web-browser they choose. MSIE 8 will be available as CD-ROM installation media at stores. It will also be available for users to download using FTP, so a web-browser could be downloaded and installed without the presence of another one. "We're committed to making Windows 7 available in Europe at the same time that it launches in the rest of the world, but we also must comply with European competition law as we launch the product," said Microsoft deputy general counsel Dave Heiner said in a written release. "Given the pending legal proceeding, we've decided that instead of including Internet Explorer in Windows 7 in Europe, we will offer it separately and on an easy-to-install basis to both computer manufacturers and users. We're committed to launching Windows 7 on time in Europe, so we need to address the legal realities in Europe, including the risk of large fines. We believe that this new approach, while not our first choice, is the best path forward given the ongoing legal case in Europe," he added.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

Wtf, MS/EU

How the hell am I supposed to get a browser on my machine. This is so stupid.

Oh well, looks like I'll be downloading the US version then.


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## btarunr (Jun 12, 2009)

Does UK come under eurozone (noob question )?


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

Uk is in europe yes


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## Yukikaze (Jun 12, 2009)

And Apple will sell no bundled software with OSX as well ?

And paid linux distros won't include a browser too ?

Riiiiight.



The EU is way past ridiculous. Having Win7 sold with no browser isn't benefiting customers - It is harming customers.


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

I wonder if OEMs are allowed to sell computers in the EU with IE8 on.

Imagine if you bought a brand new PC and couldnt even get teh interwebz

This makes me so angry  At MS for giving in, but more at EU and their ridiculous policies. I really think something needs to be done about the EU, a thin down of all the bods and relook at policies.


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## jamesrt2004 (Jun 12, 2009)

apple don't have to it's not the company monopolizing the business if that makes sense..

the way Microsoft have to abide is by either giving the choice to install different ones at start up, (which they wont) or just not come with any

but... have the installer for i.e included so just run setup if that makes sense... so d/w you'll still be able to get the i.e included ....


EU is fine it's just stopping people being forced to use WMP etc.... will give things like Winamp/firefox and all that stuff a chance...


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## tkpenalty (Jun 12, 2009)

this is sheer stupidity =_=


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## btarunr (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> I wonder if OEMs are allowed to sell computers in the EU with IE8 on.



Yes, HP, Lenovo, Dell, (OEMs), can sell with MSIE 8 preinstalled. Smaller system integrators would know that it's a good idea to sell their customer a PC with at least one browser/media player installed.


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## DaveK (Jun 12, 2009)

So ANYONE who get's Windows 7 in Europe is going to have to get access to ANOTHER machine with internet to download their preferred browser? That's just ridiculous.


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## Yukikaze (Jun 12, 2009)

jamesrt2004 said:


> EU is fine it's just stopping people being forced to use WMP etc.... will give things like Winamp/firefox and all that stuff a chance...



I run Vista, I don't use WMP, nor IE. How am I being forced to use them by virtue of having them come with the OS ? I used IE to download Chrome and Firefox and that's it.

True, they are there and I cannot uninstall them - So frakkin' what ?


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

Im hoping it will come like XP used to with a link to Install MSN explorer, and it will work like that.

The thing is, even tho MS say it doesnt come with it, IE8 is part of the make up of the OS, it can just be removed, it probably just that shortcuts wont be in place, and there will be an easy way to implement them,

So many programs rely on IE being in exitence to function. Steam uses IE ffs.


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## twicksisted (Jun 12, 2009)

they'll have some sort of a downloader built in that gives you the option of installing it i presume...
either that you youll be able to use "windows explorer" to browse http / ftp pages like you currently can


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## csendesmark (Jun 12, 2009)

Why dont they pre-install: *Opera FF Chrome and Safari* ?


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## Homeless (Jun 12, 2009)

I think it's a bit stupid since most people will have to deal with the hassle of getting a browser from another location.  Is MS allowed to have it as an optional component, or have the install file on the cd?


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## From_Nowhere (Jun 12, 2009)

So Microsoft is shooting itself in the foot to avoid being shot in the head by the EU...


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## btarunr (Jun 12, 2009)

At least it can expect to make some money selling IE 8 CDs. (price unknown)

With such a large market, one can expect decent sales of the IE8 CD for those who pick up that, and Windows off the shelf or online (for convenience sake).


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## Cuzza (Jun 12, 2009)

Come one guys, it's not going to make it remotely difficult for YOU to get online. And joe-user will simply have to install a browser when buying a computer. they will find a way to make it easy i bet. 

That aside it's ridiculous, why can't Mircosoft bundle what software they like? EU is a dinosaur.


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

Damn, if Id have known this earlier, I'd have used my vote in the EU elections and voted for UKIP. Get out of the EU then they cant f**k up our software.

Although I realise its not going to take much, its the principal of the matter. Just hope I can use an EU key on a standard version.

Otherwise there is going to be a lot of Europeans importing Win 7.


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## Darknova (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Damn, if Id have known this earlier, I'd have used my vote in the EU elections and voted for UKIP. Get out of the EU then they cant f**k up our software.
> 
> Although I realise its not going to take much, its the principal of the matter. Just hope I can use an EU key on a standard version.
> 
> Otherwise there is going to be a lot of Europeans importing Win 7.



Go to any store in the UK and try and find the N version of XP and Vista, you won't find them. These were the version with WMP removed released in Europe and Korea (i think). We still have the standard versions, so I have a sneaking suspicion that we will get either both versions, or just the standard one.

Despite the way it looks, we're the country that is "least part of the EU" of any EU country. We still have the power to not listen to EU's business laws.


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## R_1 (Jun 12, 2009)

Fee will means you've got to have a choice. God gave us Fee will and M$ took out the freedom to choose from us. We Europeans don't make internet browsers, but we want to be able to choose which US browser to use  - IE, Mozilla Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or some other. Don't blame us for defending our Free will, you've got to do the same.


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## Parad0x (Jun 12, 2009)

Thank God! I don't use these two apps either way


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## Deleted member 3 (Jun 12, 2009)

twicksisted said:


> they'll have some sort of a downloader built in that gives you the option of installing it i presume...
> either that you youll be able to use "windows explorer" to browse http / ftp pages like you currently can


You can't bundle browser downloaders in an OS.



rajagiri2 said:


> How the hell am I supposed to get a browser on my machine



Neelie Kroes doesn't care about that.


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## mtosev (Jun 12, 2009)

btarunr said:


> Does UK come under eurozone (noob question )?



in a few months Iceland will be part of the EU. they want to join us who are already in the EU.


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## Beertintedgoggles (Jun 12, 2009)

R_1 said:


> Fee will means you've got to have a choice. God gave us Fee will and M$ took out the freedom to choose from us. We Europeans don't make internet browsers, but we want to be able to choose which US browser to use  - IE, Mozilla Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or some other. Don't blame us for defending our Free will, you've got to do the same.



Wow is that dumb... you have the free will to not buy Windows 7.  You have the free will to download another browser using IE then never use IE again.  You have the free will to use another media player other than WMP.  You have the free will...  I'll just end it there, but I believe the issue still remains; how is this any different than all the prebundled software with OSX???


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## oli_ramsay (Jun 12, 2009)

R_1 said:


> Fee will means you've got to have a choice. God gave us Fee will and M$ took out the freedom to choose from us. We Europeans don't make internet browsers, but we want to be able to choose which US browser to use  - IE, Mozilla Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or some other. Don't blame us for defending our Free will, you've got to do the same.



Opera is Norwegian...


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## Papahyooie (Jun 12, 2009)

EU is giving you free will??? Sounds like they're taking it away. Taking away your ability to have a free web browser (even if it is just to download another browser) already bundled, sounds like they're taking it away. Glad I live in the good old US of A... oh wait, nevermind, with our current regime we're headed in the same direction... i mean our government already took over our car companies, so I guess next up is full on war with microsoft. Well, lets not get off topic...


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

Some of you guys were praising these jack asses in the pirate threads and every other thread that trashes free enterprise. Now you wont be able to get online. All I got to say is 

As for the "free will" statement all I have to say is WTF. I mean its free. You don't HAVE to use it. But hey, you got your wish. No IE for you.


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## btarunr (Jun 12, 2009)

I agree. If they really believed in "free will", the version with IE/WMP should be made available too. People who like IE and WMP should have the free will of choosing that version.


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

btarunr said:


> I agree. If they really believed in "free will", the version with IE/WMP should be made available too. People who like IE and WMP should have the free will of choosing that version.



Totally agree.

Should have a version, that has a sticker saying, includes IE8 and WMP.

Then people can vote with their wallets, and prove that people in EU dont want EU crippled software


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> Should have a version, that has a sticker saying, includes IE8 and WMP.
> 
> Then people can vote with their wallets, and prove that people in EU don't want EU crippled software



Now, now the EU has Pirate party. You can just get it from one of thier web browsers.....oh wait


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

Oh believe me I'll source the full version by other means if I have to.


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## AsRock (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Uk is in europe yes



Sadly yes,  who voted for that as i cannot remember the ppl of the UK wanting to be part of Europe. But i guess it's like most things.



alexp999 said:


> I wonder if OEMs are allowed to sell computers in the EU with IE8 on.
> 
> Imagine if you bought a brand new PC and couldnt even get teh interwebz
> 
> This makes me so angry  At MS for giving in, but more at EU and their ridiculous policies. I really think something needs to be done about the EU, a thin down of all the bods and relook at policies.



Hehe there be a shortcut on the desktop for IE once you installed is all most likely and maybe next to Firefox then again Firefox will probably be already installed MAYBE..

What i think Europes pissed about is not being able to uninstall it fully when you select uninstall.


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## DaveK (Jun 12, 2009)

lol glory hole


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## Ahhzz (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Wtf, MS/EU
> 
> How the hell am I supposed to get a browser on my machine. This is so stupid.
> 
> Oh well, looks like I'll be downloading the US version then.



Screw that, I want a copy of this version. Then I can load Chrome on it and be happy


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Jun 12, 2009)

I'll actually be looking for the EU version and installing Firefox via USB stick. No IE and no WMP sounds like a good build to me. 

This is MS I'm sure they will an option to install IE just like they provide an option to install Live Messenger in Vista and W7.


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## Ahhzz (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Some of you guys were praising these jack asses in the pirate threads and every other thread that trashes free enterprise. Now you wont be able to get online. All I got to say is
> 
> As for the "free will" statement all I have to say is WTF. I mean its free. You don't HAVE to use it. But hey, you got your wish. No IE for you.



Yeah...cause I never heard of a thumb drive or a cd burner to transfer the browser of my choice to the new machine..... damn...that sucks...




:shadedshu


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## Ahhzz (Jun 12, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> Come one guys, it's not going to make it remotely difficult for YOU to get online. And joe-user will simply have to install a browser when buying a computer. they will find a way to make it easy i bet.
> 
> That aside it's ridiculous, why can't Mircosoft bundle what software they like? EU is a dinosaur.



Exactly. The OEM's are being "encouraged" to install a browser at their level, so standard users can get on, and the rest of us will manage just fine...


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

Listen to you all! You're forgetting that what, 95% of Win7 installs will be done by companies that build and sell computers. These companies will obviously install a browser for their customers before they ship; so now there is no barrier to them installing FF, Opera or whatever else they want. And THAT is a GOOD thing.

The rest of us will quite rightly have our browser installer on USB drive to install.

I'm a bit perplexed by the lack of upgrade path from Vista though.


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

Funny thing is, IE8 and WMP have to be there for the OS to function properly. It will just be the GUI thats missing/disabled.


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## Ahhzz (Jun 12, 2009)

gumpty said:


> I'm a bit perplexed by the lack of upgrade path from Vista though.



I think that's just MS being pissy.....


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## Cuzza (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Funny thing is, IE8 and WMP have to be there for the OS to function properly. It will just be the GUI thats missing/disabled.



Why is that?


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## DrPepper (Jun 12, 2009)

Cuzza said:


> Why is that?



Windows explorer and IE are pretty much the same thing and thats why you can't uninstall IE because its an important part of the OS.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 12, 2009)

If i was m$ i'd tell the eu to feck off,our os so we'll put what we fecking like in it.


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

Ahhzz said:


> I think that's just MS being pissy.....



I figured as much. It wouldn't surprise me if this part of it is just a bit of posturing and wont actually be implemented.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well I read somewhere that the EU was asking MS to do something that isnt required by other industries. The example they used was a 6 pack of coke. The EU basically wants MS to sell a 6 pack of coke with one pepsi included. You would get 5 cokes and 1 pepsi to offer you "choice". What MS did to fix this issue is sell you a 6 pack with only 5 cokes and an empty slot to make your "choice". However in the end still charging you the same price. Capitalism FTW! 

FYI if you don't like it I hear Venezuela is working on an OS.


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## satelitko (Jun 12, 2009)

I don't get what you people are complaining about... Why would you even WANT IE or WMP? This is GREAT news... no more programs launching IE, when you clearly made your FF/Chrome/w.e. your main browser... No more WMP, which can't play sh*t... I'm in utter glee about this!!!


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## devguy (Jun 12, 2009)

gumpty said:


> Listen to you all! You're forgetting that what, 95% of Win7 installs will be done by companies that build and sell computers. These companies will obviously install a browser for their customers before they ship; so now there is no barrier to them installing FF, Opera or whatever else they want. And THAT is a GOOD thing.
> 
> The rest of us will quite rightly have our browser installer on USB drive to install.
> 
> I'm a bit perplexed by the lack of upgrade path from Vista though.



Seriously!  Come on, I'd be willing to bet that almost 100% of those who have the know how to build their own computer and will be buying Windows 7 OEM or retail will have the know how to put a .exe or .msi installer on a USB flash drive and run it!

For everyone else, they'll just buy an OEM pre-built computer which will already have a web browser installed so no issue there.

The only other cases are those who have Windows Vista and want to move to Windows 7 and will buy it retail/OEM.  Well, since they probably won't understand how to do a full install, that only leaves the upgrade version, of which these IE stripped versions are not.

This is a GOOD thing!  It means no IE GUI or WMP for those of us who, like me, never use these programs unless we are forced to (work...).  Plus, I'm sure many OEMs will install browsers like Chrome or Firefox and let those who weren't already aware of alternative browsers be enlightened.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

Yeah -- they're not _really_ removing it.  It's still there.  Quite a bit of Windows couldn't function without IE -- they're just making it look like it's not there.



Ahhzz said:


> I think that's just MS being pissy.....



That's exactly right -- the official company line is that "Vista was a great OS and we don't know why anybody had a problem with it -- why would you want to upgrade?"



TheMailMan78 said:


> Well I read somewhere that the EU was asking MS to do something that isnt required by other industries. The example they used was a 6 pack of coke. The EU basically wants MS to sell a 6 pack of coke with one pepsi included. You would get 5 cokes and 1 pepsi to offer you "choice". What MS did to fix this issue is sell you a 6 pack with only 5 cokes and an empty slot to make your "choice". However in the end still charging you the same price. Capitalism FTW!



Well, not exactly -- it's more like forcing Coke to sell a 6 pack of coke with no labels on the bottles.  It's still coke, the coke flavor is still there, but it just _looks_ like it's not coke.  Granted, it's still dumb.



TheMailMan78 said:


> FYI if you don't like it I hear Venezuela is working on an OS.



No, they're just going to use Linux like Brazil did: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-08-30-011-26-NW-LL-PB

What's sad is that even I think this is dumb.  10 years ago, I would've been all for this, but today, it just looks petty.  IE is already losing quite a bit of market share as is.  Web applications are becoming a big part of peoples' lives, and IE just doesn't perform up the same standards as something like Chrome or Safari does -- IE is already doomed, it's just a matter of time.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Yeah -- they're not _really_ removing it.  It's still there.  Quite a bit of Windows couldn't function without IE -- they're just making it look like it's not there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Safari? Really dude? I use it all day. In fact I'm posting with it now. It sucks. IE8 is much better. FYI I'm on a mac. Its the only reason I use Safari.


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## h3llb3nd4 (Jun 12, 2009)

EU FTL?!?!
WTF is going on with them?


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Safari? Really dude? I use it all day. In fact I'm posting with it now. It sucks. IE8 is much better. FYI I'm on a mac. Its the only reason I use Safari.



What version are you using?  I'm talking about Safari 4 -- I can't pass judgement on your own personal experiences with it, but I can tell you from my experience coding for it that its main JavaScript engine is even faster than Chrome's.  Just look at the benchmark statistics here: http://service.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/browserStatistics.action

When it comes to performance with tomorrow's web applications, JavaScript engine speed is the single most important factor (and is what that benchmark tests).  You can see how even the latest version of IE lags very, very far behind.


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## Mike0409 (Jun 12, 2009)

BTW they said the Browser would be availble an FTP download...

You don't need a web browser or an FTP proggie to access any FTP site's.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> What version are you using?  I'm talking about Safari 4 -- I can't pass judgement on your own personal experiences with it, but I can tell you from my experience coding for it that its main JavaScript engine is even faster than Chrome's.  Just look at the benchmark statistics here: http://service.futuremark.com/peacekeeper/browserStatistics.action
> 
> When it comes to performance with tomorrow's web applications, JavaScript engine speed is the single most important factor (and is what that benchmark tests).  You can see how even the latest version of IE lags very, very far behind.



Yeah I'm using 4. Sorry man but I aint buying the benches.


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## Cheeseball (Jun 12, 2009)

Although I myself believe this is quite stupid of the EU forcing MS to do this, a version that lacks IE and WMP would be quite nice to have (for techies or those who want a minimalistic OS).

I've tried using the Windows XP Professional N-edition and it's quite nice having Media Player Classic playing all my media files without any file association problems from WMP9/10. The only problem is the lack of Windows Media (.WMA/.WMV/.ASF) support, but _IMO_ I rather play media that use other, better codecs than that trash.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah I'm using 4. Sorry man but I aint buying the benches.



Well, you're free to believe in what you what.   Honestly, do you think they're lying?  Don't you think that if Futuremark was shady they'd have already taken money from Microsoft, and thus IE would be at the top of their list?


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Well, you're free to believe in what you what.   Honestly, do you think they're lying?  Don't you think that if Futuremark was shady they'd have already taken money from Microsoft, and thus IE would be at the top of their list?



I'm capitalistic swine. I'm not stupid. Of course I don't think the benches are fake. I just haven't seen Safari 4 perform any better than IE8. Safari 4 just seems slower so far. But then again maybe its optimized for the intel Macs.


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 12, 2009)

So i will have to somehow get a web browser (no problem there - USB stick) and then download Windows Media Player that doesn't come with all the codecs... to which i'll have to pay for? That sucks ass.

Looks like i'll go back to VLC


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## Lumpy (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Uk is in europe yes



LOL!


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## Ahhzz (Jun 12, 2009)

http://www.infoworld.com/d/applications/rivals-take-ie-in-enterprise-browser-war-264

nice article.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I'm capitalistic swine. I'm not stupid. Of course I don't think the benches are fake. I just haven't seen Safari 4 perform any better than IE8. Safari 4 just seems slower so far. But then again maybe its optimized for the intel Macs.



Buddy, if all you do with your Ferrari is drive it down your driveway to your mailbox, you're not going to notice any difference between it and a damn Yugo, either.   

Safari is just as fast on Windows as it is on intel macs.  You're going to have to try a few JavaScript intensive websites and media-heavy stuff -- I'll see what I can find.  I know I've found websites in the past that were testing out new js technologies that slowed to a crawl in IE but run like butter in Chrome and Safari.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Buddy, if all you do with your Ferrari is drive it down your driveway to your mailbox, you're not going to notice any difference between it and a damn Yugo, either.
> 
> Safari is just as fast on Windows as it is on intel macs.  You're going to have to try a few JavaScript intensive websites and media-heavy stuff -- I'll see what I can find.  I know I've found websites in the past that were testing out new js technologies that slowed to a crawl in IE but run like butter in Chrome and Safari.



My Mac is a PowerPC mac. Duel 2.0s. with 4 gigs of ram. A web browser should be slowing it down.


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 12, 2009)

I REALLY don't like this move, i hope they do somehow make a World Wide edition or something. It's just silly an the EU is just being anal about it.

I would like to thank Microsoft for sticking up two fingers to EU and following their stupid rules. Watch how the EU government scrambles back to Microsoft, begging to find out how to get their precious IE and WMP back.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Buddy,.... *snip*.



Im not your buddy, guy. 

Continue...


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

TRIPTEX_MTL said:


> Im not your buddy guy.
> 
> Comtinue...



I'm not your guy, friend.



TheMailMan78 said:


> My Mac is a PowerPC mac. Duel 2.0s. with 4 gigs of ram. A web browser should be slowing it down.



So -- wait, what?   

Are you comparing running Safari 4 on a PowerPC mac vs. IE8 on a windows machine?


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> I'm not your guy, friend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. Yes I am.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yes. Yes I am.



Oh yeah -- that's not unfair at all. 

Hey, try installing Safari 4 on your Windows machine, and then tell me how it feels on certain websites vs. IE.  Or just install Chrome -- for all practical purposes, Chrome and Safari are the same browser.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Oh yeah -- that's not unfair at all.
> 
> Hey, try installing Safari 4 on your Windows machine, and then tell me how it feels on certain websites vs. IE.  Or just install Chrome -- for all practical purposes, Chrome and Safari are the same browser.



Wasting your time is what I do. 

No its not "fair" but Safari 3 was faster on my machine. When I "upgraded" to 4 things got a low slower. Thats why I said it must be optimized for intel Macs OR Apple is screwing over its "legacy" users by crippling its own software to force hardware upgrades.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Thats why I said it must be optimized for intel Macs OR Apple is screwing over its "legacy" users by crippling its own software to force hardware upgrades.



New to the Mac world?    They do the same to just software, too -- there's no reason why some software should require OSX 10.5, either, but I've found quite a bit that are starting to "require" it.


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## imperialreign (Jun 12, 2009)

Just my thoughts . . . considering how shiesty MS can be, and some of their tactics in the past . . .



WIN 7 _may not_ have IE8 and WMP included _on_ the install disk . . . but how much do you want to bet that the WIN 7 retail packages come with a second disk that has IE8 and WMP on it?

As long as those applications are _included_ in the WIN 7 install, MS is in the clear . . . there's nothing saying they can't include these applications on a seperate disk in the package.

C'mon, y'all, think like MS!


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## DrPepper (Jun 12, 2009)

satelitko said:


> I don't get what you people are complaining about... Why would you even WANT IE or WMP? This is GREAT news... no more programs launching IE, when you clearly made your FF/Chrome/w.e. your main browser... No more WMP, which can't play sh*t... I'm in utter glee about this!!!



No it's not. If you made an OS wouldn't you be pissed if the EU started saying you can/can't have programs that you made into the os ? Seriously its like saying to a car manufacturer you can't use your own engine that you made use another. Seriously it's pointless IE isn't that bad and WMP is quite good. If the consumer wants to try another then they can go download that program for FREE!


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 12, 2009)

I love WMP...


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## imperialreign (Jun 12, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> No it's not. If you made an OS wouldn't you be pissed if the EU started saying you can/can't have programs that you made into the os ? Seriously its like saying to a car manufacturer you can't use your own engine that you made use another. Seriously it's pointless IE isn't that bad and WMP is quite good. If the consumer wants to try another then they can go download that program for FREE!



I have to agree . . . IE7/IE8 are some of the most secure browsers I've used . . . the issue most people have with their security revolves around users not updating as needed.  I'm confident enough in both IE7's and IE8's security that I routinely browse the i-netx with no firewall up, nor AV software running (not that I condone or support this practice . . .).

Besides, IE displays 95% of the i-webz correctly . . . unlike other browsers . . . it might also have something to do with the fact that 95% of all websites are still designed with IE for IE.



As to media players, WMP 11 I've found to be a little more easier to use and more intuitive . . . it's only downfall is it doesn't play all files types correctly, even with codecs installed.


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 12, 2009)

imperialreign said:


> As to media players, WMP 11 I've found to be a little more easier to use and more intuitive . . . it's only downfall is it doesn't play all files types correctly, even with codecs installed.



Don't know what build WMP is included in Windows 7 RC but it plays everything rather well. Well everything i chucked at it.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> New to the Mac world?    They do the same to just software, too -- there's no reason why some software should require OSX 10.5, either, but I've found quite a bit that are starting to "require" it.



I'm not new. I remember when they did it with OS 9.2. The got in trouble for it too. The made 9.2 slower than 9.1 to make you upgrade to OSX. Thats when I lost my love for Mac.


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## Demon_82 (Jun 12, 2009)

That's getting ridiculous. Can anyone, please get Spain out of the European Union?


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 12, 2009)

Gimme a few pounds of C4 and a flight to brussels

jk


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## imperialreign (Jun 12, 2009)

WhiteLotus said:


> Don't know what build WMP is included in Windows 7 RC but it plays everything rather well. Well everything i chucked at it.





More than likely WMP 11 (although I can't say for sure, never used any of the WIN 7 RCs yet) . . .

usually, if MS had another version in the works, they'd have started putting up new pages on msdn and ms.support . . . as well as started releasing betas or RCs . . .


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## newtekie1 (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm just going to quote myself here:



newtekie1 said:


> And just for the record, I'm not saying I think Microsoft and Intel were in the right with their business practices, that isn't an issue here.  What I'm saying is that if rules and regulations are going to be applied to Microsoft and Intel, they need to apply to everyone.
> 
> If Microsoft isn't allowed to bundle their media player software and Internet Browser with their OS, then Apple shouldn't be able to either, the whole iLife suite shouldn't be allowed to be bundled with OSX.
> 
> If Intel isn't allowed to make exclusivity deals, then AMD shouldn't either, and you better believe AMD made exlcusivity deals, or at least tried to.



What the EU has done is essentially taken the best basketball player on the court, and said "well you are too good, and are dominating the other players, so we want you to play with one hand and one leg".

It is utterly stupid.  And yet, there are people that believe the judgements against Microsoft are a good thing.:shadedshu  Well this is what those judgements have caused...

Oh, and further more, did you know the EU actually dictated what Microsoft could and couldn't call it's products after it made the judgement against them?  Microsoft originally wanted to call these newer versions of Windows "Reduced Media" versions, and the EU told them they couldn't because it sounded to negative.  What fucking idiots, the name describes exactly what the EU forced Microsoft to do, and it is too negative sounding?  WTF?!?!


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## phanbuey (Jun 12, 2009)

Bureaucracy fail.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

Well maybe the Pirate party can send everyone a bootleg disk of IE8.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

imperialreign said:


> I have to agree . . . IE7/IE8 are some of the most secure browsers I've used . . . the issue most people have with their security revolves around users not updating as needed.  I'm confident enough in both IE7's and IE8's security that I routinely browse the i-netx with no firewall up, nor AV software running (not that I condone or support this practice . . .).



It's good that you don't condone it, because you should stop doing it, ASAP.

Most security problems involving IE do not merely involve IE not being updated as needed -- the core nature of the browser is flawed.  IE is intermeshed completely with the Windows OS -- security problems with IE can thus affect your entire installation.  

It's why it's such an easy vector for viruses -- no amount of patches by Microsoft is going to fix it.  When a security problem is found in something like Firefox, most of the time it just affects your browser-based activities -- your cookies could be exposed, or your browser passwords, or something like that.  When a security problem is found in IE, the entire OS can be compromised. 

What Microsoft needs to do, IMO, is split IE's rendering engine away from the browser to use internally in their OS, and then adopt a new browser engine to use with the external internet.



imperialreign said:


> Besides, IE displays 95% of the i-webz correctly . . . unlike other browsers . . . it might also have something to do with the fact that 95% of all websites are still designed with IE for IE.



Not really, no.  Now, I'd agree that 95% of websites look fine in IE, but that's only because so many web developers have to hold back new technologies and better ways of coding, because IE won't support them.  

It's like saying a wheelchair can get in 95% of buildings -- but that's only because most buildings have to make a special ramp so that handicapped people using a wheelchair can access them.


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## Frederik S (Jun 12, 2009)

The European Commission clearly consists of certified morons. A completely irrelevant observation, but nonetheless spot on.

Did some one want cookies? oh sorry you can only have the ones without the topping!! Because with ones with the topping taste to good......

And I really like my cookies. I hope the EC never rule to impede foreign cookie makers ability to compete.


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 12, 2009)

WhiteLotus said:


> Don't know what build WMP is included in Windows 7 RC but it plays everything rather well. Well everything i chucked at it.



Jusy checked...

Build 12.0.7100.0


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

devguy said:


> Seriously!  Come on, I'd be willing to bet that almost 100% of those who have the know how to build their own computer and will be buying Windows 7 OEM or retail will have the know how to put a .exe or .msi installer on a USB flash drive and run it!
> 
> For everyone else, they'll just buy an OEM pre-built computer which will already have a web browser installed so no issue there.
> 
> ...



Ummm ... indeed. That's what I was getting at.


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## Kitkat (Jun 12, 2009)

Yukikaze said:


> And Apple will sell no bundled software with OSX as well ?
> 
> And paid linux distros won't include a browser too ?
> 
> ...



Like ive said in in previous post if antitrust was fair it would be 100000000X more insane. Why did my chevy come with a chevy engine what if i want a ferrrari engine in it?!?!?! WHY CANT I CHOOSE THE BRAND OF PENUT BUTTER ON MY NUTTERBUTTERS!!!!!!! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its rediculas weather or not u like Microsoft or not its INSANNEEEEEEEEEEEE. Arent they tired of reading about there own good deeds. They need to rename the department RANDOM FINES CAUSE WE FEEL LIKE IT. Cause the name antitrust has NOTHING to do with the job they do. Unless you dont trust them to leave you alone. Then it does...... Id be HORIFIED to have anything over there that got famous for ANY reason. THIS TOTALY RUINS ANY CHANCE OF EU GETTING SNUGGY AND YOU ARE TOTALY MISSINGOUT!! https://www.getsnuggie.com/flare/next

On a side not too it has nothing to do with u hating IE (which i think is fine) it has to do with WHAT they do. your ok with them doing it to microsoft and the one part of the OS you hate. THATS NOT WHY PPL ARE DISCUSTED WITH THEM. Its there ability to do it. JUST WAIT TILL ITS SOMETHING U LIKE. in a fair scnario (which will never exist thats why ANTITRUST IS MORONIC) They would get something you love or like too. It has nothing to do with the fact u dont use IE.


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

alexp999 said:


> Damn, if Id have known this earlier, I'd have used my vote in the EU elections and voted for UKIP. Get out of the EU then they cant f**k up our software.



Just to take this right off topic ...

In the grand scheme of things, jumping off the EU boat would be an idiotic move for the UK. 60% of the UK's trade is with the EU - so even once you're out, you still have to comply with EU trade laws to do business there anyway - so you've gained nothing. You then have to find jobs for the millions of British people that can no longer work in the EU automatically (there's 1 million in Spain alone). Sure you can kick out the Polish and give their jobs back to the British, but from what I've seen - they're mostly working the menial jobs that the British are too soft to do. So ... long story short ... you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. 

Right, back to the topic at hand ...


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## Easo (Jun 12, 2009)

Yea, EU didnt realy think trough this one, a lot of users will have problems... Kek, guess law is above all, even when it is stupid... US version for me...


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## Steevo (Jun 12, 2009)

I love how everyone whines about IE and then when it gets taken away they cry.


I really want to see what happens, no doubt most companies will go around this and install it anyway on their systems thus saving the customer from the stupidity and greed of the EU courts.



mdm-adph said:


> It's good that you don't condone it, because you should stop doing it, ASAP.
> 
> Most security problems involving IE do not merely involve IE not being updated as needed -- the core nature of the browser is flawed.  IE is intermeshed completely with the Windows OS -- security problems with IE can thus affect your entire installation.
> 
> ...




All that was true in 2001 when XP was released, however with Vista and now Win 7 it runs in a sandbox, and thus is not tied to the the OS, thus also how they can remove it.

So IE is no more of a threat than FF, O, or Safari.


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

*ANALogies*



Kitkat said:


> Like ive said in in previous post if antitrust was fair it would be 100000000X more insane. Why did my chevy come with a chevy engine what if i want a ferrrari engine in it?!?!?!





TheMailMan78 said:


> Well I read somewhere that the EU was asking MS to do something that isnt required by other industries. The example they used was a 6 pack of coke. The EU basically wants MS to sell a 6 pack of coke with one pepsi included. You would get 5 cokes and 1 pepsi to offer you "choice". What MS did to fix this issue is sell you a 6 pack with only 5 cokes and an empty slot to make your "choice". However in the end still charging you the same price. Capitalism FTW!
> 
> FYI if you don't like it I hear Venezuela is working on an OS.



Those analogies are frankly terrible. Just awful.

A fizzy drink is a fizzy drink. A car is a car. Sure it uses various parts to make the car but the end product serves ONE purpose - getting you from A to B.
WHEREAS:
An OS is the piece of software that runs your computer. That is what it does. A web browser does something entirely different. Similarly a media player has another purpose. And they are mutually exclusive.

To correct your car analogy, it would be correct if you were talking about the map that came in the glove box. It'd be like someone telling Chevy to remove their own-brand (and poorly designed) map from the glove box. People could then choose what map they want - or more likely, the dealerships would put whatever map they thought best in the glove box.

EDIT:
I want to combine those two analogies now.
Lets say Chevy built a car and included with it a free Chevy-cola dispenser in the dash, this gives them a leg-up in the cola market as people drive their cars every day and consequently drink Chevy-cola instead of finding another brand. What the EU is doing is telling Chevy to stop with the cola-dispenser game so that consumers and OEMs can make their own minds up about which cola-dispenser to install in the dash.

I'm done with analogies now. I need to take a shower I feel so dirty.


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## Kitkat (Jun 12, 2009)

gumpty said:


> The EU has responded. They think what MS are doing is partly stupid. They would rather see the OS come with other options:
> 
> _"In a statement, regulators said that the move seems a step backward in the retail software arena, but said it could be more positive in the new PC market, which is how 95 percent of consumers get a new version of Windows.
> 
> "As for retail sales, which amount to less than 5 percent of total sales, the Commission had suggested to Microsoft that consumers be provided with a choice of Web browsers," the Commission said. "Instead Microsoft has apparently decided to supply retail consumers with a version of Windows without a Web browser at all. Rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.""_



seems more of your byast twards ms and LESS of REALITY of how stupid it is. When u want more options u take 3 seconds and download the one you want. Same as tires rims on a car or anything else. What if they all choose one u dont like??? How will you deal doing the SAME thing as if IE were installed already?!?! Antitrust idea was great WHEN THEY STARTED now its rediculas. You dont care cause its MS. I think supporting the WILD nature of Antitrust on behalf of ms byast is  "frankly terrible. Just awful."


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## btarunr (Jun 12, 2009)

WhiteLotus said:


> Don't know what build WMP is included in Windows 7 RC but it plays everything rather well. Well everything i chucked at it.


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## Cheeseball (Jun 12, 2009)

> All that was true in 2001 when XP was released, however with Vista and now Win 7 it runs in a sandbox, and thus is not tied to the the OS, thus also how they can remove it.



So is it possible to uninstall IE7/IE8 from Vista/7 without having to use utilities like nLite and without any undesireable effects? I'd like to know if this is possible.


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## alexp999 (Jun 12, 2009)

btarunr said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/090612/Capture077.jpg



He then went an answered his own question, lol 



WhiteLotus said:


> Jusy checked...
> 
> Build 12.0.7100.0


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## newtekie1 (Jun 12, 2009)

gumpty said:


> Lets say Chevy built a car and included with it a free Chevy-cola dispenser in the dash, this gives them a leg-up in the cola market as people drive their cars every day and consequently drink Chevy-cola instead of finding another brand. What the EU is doing is telling Chevy to stop with the cola-dispenser game so that consumers and OEMs can make their own minds up about which cola-dispenser to install in the dash.



The idealogy behind that is wrong.  The EU and people defending the EU's decision are saying that the people that use Microsoft's OSes are forced to use the bundled software, and hence it blocks out the "competition".  This is false, plain and simple.  No one is forced to use IE or WMP just because they come with the OS.  People choose to use them.

And using your anology, I wouldn't have a problem with the EU forcing Chevy to remove their cola-despenser, as long as they forced every other car manufacturer to do the same.  It isn't fair to force Chevy to remove their cola-depenser while allowing Dodge and Ford to keep their cola-depensers in their new cars.


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## Dimi (Jun 12, 2009)

I don't know why everyone complains. Lately i've been getting tired of Firefox and i'm edging towards using IE8 from now on. 

I love using the IE8 64bit version because it runs nearly twice as fast as Firefox on my machine, renders pages blazing fast (and correct).


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## Kitkat (Jun 12, 2009)

btarunr said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/090612/Capture077.jpg



that may be next along with everything else


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

I love it when socialistic crap like this back fires. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside and remember the Reagan years.


Sorry. I had too.


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## lemonadesoda (Jun 12, 2009)

I absolutely LOL at this.  For "experts" like most users here it isnt a problem. We will keystick an install file. But for MOST CONSUMERS this will be shocking. They wont have the faintest clue what to do.

I bet Apple is ROFLCOPTERING at this.  It will certainly boost Apple sales in the EU.


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## lemonadesoda (Jun 12, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> ...And using your anology, I wouldn't have a problem with the EU forcing Chevy to remove their cola-despenser, as long as they forced every other car manufacturer to do the same.  It isn't fair to force Chevy to remove their cola-depenser while allowing Dodge and Ford to keep their cola-depensers in their new cars.



Let's take this a step futher, in the EU, cars should be sold without wheels. Since it is blocking 3rd party wheel and tyre manufacturers. :shadedshu

I am EMBARASSED and ASHAMED of the EU's collective incompetence.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

lemonadesoda said:


> I bet Apple is ROFLCOPTERING at this.  It will certainly boost Apple sales in the EU.



Until the EU tells them they cant ship OSX with Safari or Quicktime.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

Steevo said:


> All that was true in 2001 when XP was released, however with Vista and now Win 7 it runs in a sandbox, and thus is not tied to the the OS, thus also how they can remove it.
> 
> So IE is no more of a threat than FF, O, or Safari.



No offense, and I'll admit I haven't heard about this, but I wouldn't trust Microsoft's promises of a "sandbox" very far at all.  Just the fact that even after you "uninstall" IE from Windows 7 the rendering engine *still remains and is part of the operating system* means that their promise isn't worth much to me.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Until the EU tells them they cant ship OSX with Safari or Quicktime.



Which is coming, eventually.


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## DrPepper (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Until the EU tells them they cant ship OSX with Safari or Quicktime.



Apple aren't monopolizing so they won't get the same treatment :shadedshu I hope they do though, Also wouldn't ubuntu stop using firefox ?


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## imperialreign (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> It's good that you don't condone it, because you should stop doing it, ASAP.
> 
> Most security problems involving IE do not merely involve IE not being updated as needed -- the core nature of the browser is flawed.  IE is intermeshed completely with the Windows OS -- security problems with IE can thus affect your entire installation.
> 
> ...




I agree on the part of how closely tied IE is to the kernel . . . it's a PITA when you get the occasional browser crash and it takes down explorer with it . . .

As to the rest, yeah, I know all that . . . like I said, I don't condone the practice, and I'm fully aware of the risks . . . even still, if you keep WIN and all other applications up-to-date, the possiblity of running into risks diminishes . . . you can update IE7/8 all you want, but it won't help a bit if the OS itself is outdated and not up-to-par with the latest security patches


My issue is that everyone continues to bash IE over how unsecure, buggy and malware prone it is . . . but I fail to see that yet . . . even with browsing through the bowels of the i-net.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> Apple aren't monopolizing so they won't get the same treatment :shadedshu I hope they do though, Also wouldn't ubuntu stop using firefox ?



Neither was Microsoft. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. All MUST be fair.


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## DrPepper (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Neither was Microsoft. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. All MUST be fair.



I do hate this whole issue though. I mean they say microsoft isn't being fair but they didn't get such a huge market share because their software was bad. It was because the competition was worse.


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> The EU and people defending the EU's decision are saying that the people that use Microsoft's OSes are forced to use the bundled software, and hence it blocks out the "competition".  This is false, plain and simple.  No one is forced to use IE or WMP just because they come with the OS.  People choose to use them.



Really? I have never said that people are "forced" to use IE and I doubt the EU has either. Don't put words in my mouth. The bundling of IE puts them at an unfair advantage in a completely different market. Internet browsers and operating systems are different products remember.
I don't know about your experiences - but nearly every person that I have advised to use a different browser has either not known that alternatives exist, did not know that they would work on their pc or couldn't be bothered finding it, downloading it and installing it. And that is the reality outside our little bubble. We know better - but the general public does not.



newtekie1 said:


> And using your anology, I wouldn't have a problem with the EU forcing Chevy to remove their cola-despenser, as long as they forced every other car manufacturer to do the same.  It isn't fair to force Chevy to remove their cola-depenser while allowing Dodge and Ford to keep their cola-depensers in their new cars.



Look at the time and effort involved in fighting this case against MS. The reality is that it would be impossible to apply this law (basically take someone to court) universally and all at the same time. The EU can only do what they can. Once they've finished with MS (assuming MS were to comply fully), then I'm sure the EU would turn their attention to others - but they can't do it all at once. So they started with the case/company that would have the greatest effect. Just like they did with Intel. Imposing fines on the biggest player or worst offender first will discourage the smaller players from behaving the same. If the smaller fish continue to behave badly as well then they'll be next in line.

I'm sorry newtekie, I would like to see this policed universally too, but the reality is that the resources aren't there to police everything all at once.


EDIT: Just for clarity I don't have anything against IE8 either - I just like Firefox better.


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## Steevo (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> No offense, and I'll admit I haven't heard about this, but I wouldn't trust Microsoft's promises of a "sandbox" very far at all.  Just the fact that even after you "uninstall" IE from Windows 7 the rendering engine *still remains and is part of the operating system* means that their promise isn't worth much to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is coming, eventually.



No it again, really isn't. And the sandbox mode has been tested to be as efficient to warning a user to a threat as is antispyware, antivirus, rootkit prevention, and general malware infections when used properly with UAC.


Add on software, drive by downloads, popup redirects, infected ads, and scripts are all prevented with common sense and the basic system settings. i also use Avast and block many sites that I have found to be dangerous. I have tried to get infected, and the only way I have found is to visit dangerous sites with my security down, then click on the installers, and allow it to run after UAC asks.


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## gumpty (Jun 12, 2009)

Kitkat said:


> seems more of your byast twards ms and LESS of REALITY of how stupid it is. When u want more options u take 3 seconds and download the one you want. Same as tires rims on a car or anything else. What if they all choose one u dont like??? How will you deal doing the SAME thing as if IE were installed already?!?! Antitrust idea was great WHEN THEY STARTED now its rediculas. You dont care cause its MS. I think supporting the WILD nature of Antitrust on behalf of ms byast is  "frankly terrible. Just awful."



Way to make sense.

I have no bias towards MS - it's the only OSs I've ever used.

And like I've said before: *we* know to go out and download another browser but *Joe Public*, on the whole, does not.

And again. Different options for wheel rims on cars is not the same as a browser in an operating system. Wheel rims do not do a different function to the car as a whole (they make it look different - it's a cosmetic change but wheels still go round), whereas a browser is a different product, that does a different function.


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## devguy (Jun 12, 2009)

lemonadesoda said:


> I absolutely LOL at this.  For "experts" like most users here it isnt a problem. We will keystick an install file. But for MOST CONSUMERS this will be shocking. They wont have the faintest clue what to do.
> 
> I bet Apple is ROFLCOPTERING at this.  It will certainly boost Apple sales in the EU.



Why do you say they won't have the faintest clue what to do?  They'll probably just buy a prebuilt machine with Windows 7 on it that comes with an internet browser  

For those that have Vista and try to upgrade, they wouldn't be able to use this version, so again, no issue.

And I believe it will be unlikely that those who cannot figure out how to launch an executable from a DVD or USB stick will go the route of a format/wipe/clean install which would be the only remaining option...?


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## Scrizz (Jun 12, 2009)

This is stupid.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

But Bill Gates likes cheese burgers. Just like me! Why is the EU picking on him?


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## newtekie1 (Jun 12, 2009)

gumpty said:


> Really? I have never said that people are "forced" to use IE and I doubt the EU has either. Don't put words in my mouth. The bundling of IE puts them at an unfair advantage in a completely different market. Internet browsers and operating systems are different products remember.
> I don't know about your experiences - but nearly every person that I have advised to use a different browser has either not known that alternatives exist, did not know that they would work on their pc or couldn't be bothered finding it, downloading it and installing it. And that is the reality outside our little bubble. We know better - but the general public does not.



Actually, that is exactly what the EU's case was based on, I suggest you do a little research on the issue.  The entire issue behind the EU's complaint was that people are forced to use IE/WMP because it is bundled with Windows.

It isn't Microsoft's fault that people don't educate themselves, and they shouldn't be forced to remove functionality from their products simply because people are uneducated/lazy.  People want a product that works from the moment it is installed, you said it yourself, they don't want to be bothered with downloading a seperate browser after installing their OS.

Calculators are a seperate market from OSes too, should Microsoft be forced to strip the calculator from their OS?  What about games, should Solitair be stripped because it give them an unfair advantage over regular cards?  BiCycle should be all over them about this.

If you want to start the argument about how browsers are a different market, so they shouldn't be included in OSes, then you have to apply it to everything included in the OS, and if we do that we would all be back to install an OS that boots to a command line...  Would that really help the consumer any?



gumpty said:


> Look at the time and effort involved in fighting this case against MS. The reality is that it would be impossible to apply this law (basically take someone to court) universally and all at the same time. The EU can only do what they can. Once they've finished with MS (assuming MS were to comply fully), then I'm sure the EU would turn their attention to others - but they can't do it all at once. So they started with the case/company that would have the greatest effect. Just like they did with Intel. Imposing fines on the biggest player or worst offender first will discourage the smaller players from behaving the same. If the smaller fish continue to behave badly as well then they'll be next in line.
> 
> I'm sorry newtekie, I would like to see this policed universally too, but the reality is that the resources aren't there to police everything all at once.
> 
> ...



If the policy can't be enforced, it shouldn't be.  And there isn't even a hint that the EU is worried about anyone other than Microsoft in this issue.  It also isn't difficult to name multiple defendants in a court case, there is no reason that Apple couldn't be included in the original case with minimal effort and resources.

It is the government's job to make policies, and make sure there is enough resources to enforce those policies.  If they don't have enough resources to enforce the policies they create, then they have failed as a governing body.

Though that isn't even the case here, the EU has no intention of apply this policy to anyone other than Microsoft.The EU has actually said that because Microsoft is the biggest, this policy will only apply to them, that was again the basis of their complaint to begin with.  Sorry, but the policy is purposefully unfair, which my problem with the whole thing.  Well that, and the fact that the whole issue of forcing Microsoft to remove bundled applications is completely stupid anyway...


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## mdm-adph (Jun 12, 2009)

Steevo said:


> No it again, really isn't. And the sandbox mode has been tested to be as efficient to warning a user to a threat as is antispyware, antivirus, rootkit prevention, and general malware infections when used properly with UAC.
> 
> 
> Add on software, drive by downloads, popup redirects, infected ads, and scripts are *all prevented with common sense* and the basic system settings. i also use Avast and block many sites that I have found to be dangerous. I have tried to get infected, and the only way I have found is to visit dangerous sites with my security down, then click on the installers, and allow it to run after UAC asks.



And there's the problem, right there.    I _hope_ "common sense" doesn't make up any part of Microsoft's security protection, because it ain't happening.

However, I still stand by what I said earlier.  I don't consider anything separated and "sandboxed" if, even after uninstalling, it's still necessary to have in a system.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 12, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> And there's the problem, right there.    I _hope_ "common sense" doesn't make up any part of Microsoft's security protection, because it ain't happening.


 No protection in the world including any government agency is as powerful as good common sense. If we get to the point where we need to rely on the government to install policies that save us from mistakes that could have been avoided with a little common sense humanity is lost.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jun 12, 2009)

Put a browser of your choice on a flash drive or other media?

Id rather the US version not have IE7.


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## ShogoXT (Jun 12, 2009)

It seems even if Microsoft is following the rules, EU still wants their money. It helps their economy of course.


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## turtile (Jun 12, 2009)

What is stopping OEMs from installing alternative browsers right now?  All this will do is make more work for computer companies.  Many users don't know what a web browser is and will be completely confused when they don't see the "e" icon.


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## rpsgc (Jun 12, 2009)

Pre-built computers will come with Internet Explorer anyways because OEMs can and will install whatever the hell they want. Is that part so hard to understand? Way to overreact.


OH NOES IT'S TEH EVILS EUS!! ALL TEHY WANTS IS THE USSSSS MONEYZS!!11ONEONE



Bunch of hypocrites is what you are. Always whining and bitching and bashing Microsoft left and right and now you're all defending it because the *European* Union is after them... laughable. Where is all the whining about Microsoft being a monopoly? Uhm? Oh, *now* they aren't a monopoly? Right...


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## Paintface (Jun 12, 2009)

Proud to be a European! down with M$!


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## mtosev (Jun 12, 2009)

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/06/12/1457233

"The European Commission will proceed with its antitrust case against Microsoft regardless of Microsoft's decision to strip IE from Windows 7 in Europe. Europe's top antitrust regulator said the EC would draw up a remedy that allows computer users 'genuine consumer choice,' noting that stripping out IE from Windows 'may potentially be positive,' but 'rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.' Jon von Tetzchner, CEO of Opera, whose complaint to the European Commission at the end of 2007 sparked the initial antitrust investigation, said Microsoft is 'trying to set the remedy itself by stripping out IE. ... Now that Microsoft has acknowledged it has been breaking the law by bundling IE into Windows, the Commission must push ahead with an effective remedy,' he said."

Microsoft in deep shit


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 13, 2009)

mtosev said:


> http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/06/12/1457233
> 
> "The European Commission will proceed with its antitrust case against Microsoft regardless of Microsoft's decision to strip IE from Windows 7 in Europe. Europe's top antitrust regulator said the EC would draw up a remedy that allows computer users 'genuine consumer choice,' noting that stripping out IE from Windows 'may potentially be positive,' but 'rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.' Jon von Tetzchner, CEO of Opera, whose complaint to the European Commission at the end of 2007 sparked the initial antitrust investigation, said Microsoft is 'trying to set the remedy itself by stripping out IE. ... Now that Microsoft has acknowledged it has been breaking the law by bundling IE into Windows, the Commission must push ahead with an effective remedy,' he said."
> 
> Microsoft in deep shit



So Microsoft folded and is following the "rules" now and the EU is still after them? Greed is all the EU is.


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## DrPepper (Jun 13, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So Microsoft folded and is following the "rules" now and the EU is still after them? Greed is all the EU is.



They can't sue them before win7 is sold in the EU with IE!!! That's like suing someone before they've done something then decided not to because it turns out to be illegal.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 13, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> They can't sue them before win7 is sold in the EU with IE!!! That's like suing someone before they've done something then decided not to because it turns out to be illegal.



Read the post above mine. Screw the EU. Screw them with the power and passion of a thousand camel necks.


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## DrPepper (Jun 13, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Read the post above mine. Screw the EU. Screw them with the power and passion of a thousand camel necks.



I hope this case fails since there isn't much basis for it, since microsoft haven't done anything wrong yet.


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## mtosev (Jun 13, 2009)

@themailman

I think that there are serious problems with some practuses in the USA.

a nice example of this is ENRON. does Enron ring a bell?

where was the US government? they didnt know or they didnt do their job correctly. id go with the last one. so nobody is perfect.


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## TheGuruStud (Jun 13, 2009)

Oh no! How dare I plug in my flash drive or external HDD. I really want junk software on my comp that I can't remove. Please, give it to me.

It's dumb to force m$ to remove it, but on the other hand, it makes sense b/c it: 1. it sucks  2. tied into the OS, maybe m$ will eventually separate it  3. defaults itself to everything, sometimes even after FF is set to default (some apps open IE instead of FF)  4. doesn't infect my comp just merely by being installed providing a platform of attack  5. it sucks super mega hard?

Anyone worth their salt wouldn't bother with IE or WMP, anyway. No loss.


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## hat (Jun 13, 2009)

This is epic bullshit. Even though the IE and WMP haters are jumping for joy, how do you expect to be able to download an alternative browser in the first place?


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## Paintface (Jun 13, 2009)

hat said:


> This is epic bullshit. Even though the IE and WMP haters are jumping for joy, how do you expect to be able to download an alternative browser in the first place?



is it that difficult to understand? just like updating windows doesnt need IE anymore, you will be able to download the most used browsers through a simular tool.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 13, 2009)

hat said:


> This is epic bullshit. Even though the IE and WMP haters are jumping for joy, how do you expect to be able to download an alternative browser in the first place?



Whats epic is the EU still attacking them even after they try and play "fair". This is about the EU extorting money from the private sector and has nothing to do with any anti-trust laws. But then what do you expect? They have Nazis and Pirates on the board.


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## CyberDruid (Jun 13, 2009)

What's next? Shipping automobiles without steering wheels or tires so aftermarket MFRs would have better market share?

"So can I get my car with tires then?"

"I'm sorry sir you'll have to tow your new car out of the lot to one of the local tire shops...we are not allowed to put tires on."


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## Paintface (Jun 13, 2009)




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## extrasalty (Jun 13, 2009)

I have the IE- the first and only time I use it is when I search "Firefox".


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## btarunr (Jun 13, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So Microsoft folded and is following the "rules" now and the EU is still after them? Greed is all the EU is.



The more I get to know about EU's antitrust lawsuits, the more I imagine them to be as unreasonable as the Canadians in the _Canada on Strike_ episode of South Park. "We want ya mannei!"

(I know Canadians aren't that in reality)


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## hat (Jun 13, 2009)

TheGuruStud said:


> Oh no! How dare I plug in my flash drive or external HDD. I really want junk software on my comp that I can't remove. Please, give it to me.



This may be true for you, but what do you think the percentage is of people who have computers having an alternative browser tucked away somewhere, be it burnt to CD, on a flash drive etc. I'd be willing to bet that most of the computer-equipped populus doesn't know that other internet browsers exist outside of IE.


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## TheGuruStud (Jun 13, 2009)

hat said:


> This may be true for you, but what do you think the percentage is of people who have computers having an alternative browser tucked away somewhere, be it burnt to CD, on a flash drive etc. I'd be willing to bet that most of the computer-equipped populus doesn't know that other internet browsers exist outside of IE.



Then they have no one to blame but themselves


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## Triprift (Jun 13, 2009)

The ppl that will suffer from this the most would be non puter savvy ppl who dont know there is other browsers other than IE. Sure most of us here would know about chrome ff ect but the majority dont nice one EU.


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## h3llb3nd4 (Jun 13, 2009)

Triprift said:


> The ppl that will suffer from this the most would be non puter savvy ppl who dont know there is other browsers other than IE. Sure most of us here would know about chrome ff ect but the majority dont nice one EU.



I cant wait to see the EU get sued


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## Triprift (Jun 13, 2009)

No no they dont get sued they just sue ms over and over again. Gotta stimulate the European economies somehow.


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## imperialreign (Jun 13, 2009)

hat said:


> This is epic bullshit. Even though the IE and WMP haters are jumping for joy, how do you expect to be able to download an alternative browser in the first place?



I stillget the feeling MS is going to use the loophole of stripping WIN7 of IE and WMP . . . but include a second disk in the retail package that has IE8 and WMP11 on it.

There's nothing that says they can't include these applications with retail WIN 7 on a _seperate_ disk . . .


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## NympH (Jun 13, 2009)

twicksisted said:


> they'll have some sort of a downloader built in that gives you the option of installing it i presume...
> either that you youll be able to use "windows explorer" to browse http / ftp pages like you currently can



Yeah, it's called windows update.


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## thraxed (Jun 14, 2009)

I just hope we can buy the euro version in the us


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## btarunr (Jun 14, 2009)

thraxed said:


> I just hope we can buy the euro version in the us



Trade your copy with alexp999.


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## Triprift (Jun 14, 2009)

I think OEM versions wont be stripped back and is were the other browsers are kicking up a stink.


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## btarunr (Jun 14, 2009)

Triprift said:


> I think OEM versions wont be stripped back and is were the other browsers are kicking up a stink.



They will be, though just like how OEMs have the freedom to bundle anti-virus software, they will be allowed to pre-install a browser of their choice, including IE8. What this does, is it in turn ends up publicising IE8. Imagine when someone like Dell or HP starts listing "Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player pre-installed" in their brochures.


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## Triprift (Jun 14, 2009)

Some would look at firefox promoting with its world record dls in a day of version 3. Certainly didnt hurt them in that sense that it got them exposure.


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## Wile E (Jun 15, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Well, you're free to believe in what you what.   Honestly, do you think they're lying?  Don't you think that if Futuremark was shady they'd have already taken money from Microsoft, and thus IE would be at the top of their list?



No, it's just that synthetic benches aren't always good indicators of real-world performance. I own and operate 2 Macs, and Safari 4 is shit. Even Firefox (without any add-ons) feels faster and more responsive in 99% of all tasks.



mdm-adph said:


> New to the Mac world?    They do the same to just software, too -- there's no reason why some software should require OSX 10.5, either, but I've found quite a bit that are starting to "require" it.



The only programs that require a certain os version, are those that access specific low-level OS functions. The core of the OS does change in some updates, rendering some programs useless. It's no different than certain programs in Windows losing compatibility with newer versions of the OS.



TheGuruStud said:


> Then they have no one to blame but themselves


Right, but the entire case against MS was that by them bundling IE and WMP, it provided them an unfair advantage in the browser and media player markets, because people, by and large, didn't really know anything else existed. It wasn't MS's fault that these people are uneducated. These people still had no one to blame but themselves, so why was MS blamed?


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## mdm-adph (Jun 15, 2009)

Wile E said:


> The only programs that require a certain os version, are those that access specific low-level OS functions. The core of the OS does change in some updates, rendering some programs useless. It's no different than certain programs in Windows losing compatibility with newer versions of the OS.



Ah, but that's the thing -- not only do I find MacOS 10.5 a minor update at best, but the kinds of programs I'm finding that are _requiring_ it are ridiculously simple -- I just can't imagine them needing to use hugely specific low-level OS functions, since I'm pretty sure even versions of Photoshop that worked on 10.4 will work fine on 10.5.  I'll try and find a few examples.


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## zAAm (Jun 15, 2009)

I'll just keep on using Firefox and VLC/K-lite Media Player Classic then...


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## Triprift (Jun 15, 2009)

Im happy enough with IE WMP though thats a different kettle of fish has been gathering dust due to bugger all use.


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## Wile E (Jun 15, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Ah, but that's the thing -- not only do I find MacOS 10.5 a minor update at best, but the kinds of programs I'm finding that are _requiring_ it are ridiculously simple -- I just can't imagine them needing to use hugely specific low-level OS functions, since I'm pretty sure even versions of Photoshop that worked on 10.4 will work fine on 10.5.  I'll try and find a few examples.



No, for the most part, those are the ones that aren't tested to work with newer versions of the OS, not that they can't. 

But a few of those older progs that no longer work, but should, used a DRM system that doesn't run on later versions of the OS. A simple patch by the vendor is all it would need. It's the vendor's fault, not Apple's, in those cases.


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## mdm-adph (Jun 16, 2009)

Wile E said:


> But a few of those older progs that no longer work, but should, used a *DRM* system that doesn't run on later versions of the OS. A simple patch by the vendor is all it would need. It's the vendor's fault, not Apple's, in those cases.



Ah -- once again, DRM making things harder for the consumer.  Imagine that.


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## Wile E (Jun 16, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Ah -- once again, DRM making things harder for the consumer.  Imagine that.



I agree with you 100% there. I hate DRM.


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