# When will gpu prices return to normal.



## stoggs1 (Jan 6, 2021)

Hello everyone,

So I am in the process of building a new system and I am looking to buy a new gpu as part as my new build but gpu prices right now are insane.  I was thinking of getting an rtx 2070 used but the cheapest I have seen one on the used marked was still over $500.   

I probably won't have all of my parts until late February so do you guys think that gpu prices will be better by then?  

Thanks.


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## yotano211 (Jan 6, 2021)

I dont see prices coming down anytime soon, it could be well into June for prices to come down a little. Factories are still trying to get people to get back to work to certain countries. 2070 prices are kinda high because 3060ti are kinda hard to find.

Go over to reddit hardware swap and look for a 2070 on there. They have 2070s for around $400, but you have to act fast, they usually go pretty fast. Lots of good people and many good sellers on there.








						r/hardwareswap
					

r/hardwareswap: Do you want to trade your unused computer part for something you will use? Welcome to r/Hardwareswap, a community and marketplace …




					www.reddit.com
				




shot me a PM and maybe I can find something you're looking for, I cant guarantee it.


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## Vya Domus (Jan 6, 2021)

400$ for a 2 year old mid-high end card is still pretty insane.


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## kurosagi01 (Jan 6, 2021)

The only time we will probably see "normalised" price would be when manufacturing is back at 70-90% capacity and pandemic has improved overall for the world.


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## yotano211 (Jan 6, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> 400$ for a 2 year old mid-high end card is still pretty insane.


I agree but its the strange times of the world right now. I wont say anything further, I promised myself I wont.


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## Frick (Jan 6, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> 400$ for a 2 year old mid-high end card is still pretty insane.



The same model RTX2060 I got last week for €300 was sold on swedish ebay for €430. GTX1070 cards are like €250.



yotano211 said:


> I agree but its the strange times of the world right now. I wont say anything further, I promised myself I wont.



Because you're one of the profiteers, so you like this.


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## stoggs1 (Jan 6, 2021)

Frick said:


> The same model RTX2060 I got last week for €300 was sold on swedish ebay for €430. GTX1070 cards are like €250.
> 
> 
> 
> Because you're one of the profiteers, so you like this.


which is crazy because I payed just a little over $200 for my 1070 almost 2 and half years ago.


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## Jetster (Jan 6, 2021)

When Bit Coin drops

Same thing happened a few years ago. I bought a GTX980 for $210 and sold it for almost $300


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## Vya Domus (Jan 6, 2021)

Frick said:


> GTX1070 cards are like €250.



And to think that I paid like 200 euro for a 1080 2-3 years ago.


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## Tomgang (Jan 6, 2021)

I can't say when we will have normal pricing on gpu's again. But there will for sure be going months at least. 

There are shortage of GDDR6 memory, many people are home cause of the pandemic, so many are now buying new or used gpu,'s keeping used prices high as well. Also scalpers and crypto currentcy miners are buying in as well, so there will be going a long time before pricing is normal.


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## witkazy (Jan 6, 2021)

stoggs1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> So I am in the process of building a new system and I am looking to buy a new gpu as part as my new build but gpu prices right now are insane.  I was thinking of getting an rtx 2070 used but the cheapest I have seen one on the used marked was still over $500.
> 
> ...


When You will see a flock of pigs flyin by that will be the day   cheers.


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## RandallFlagg (Jan 6, 2021)

stoggs1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> So I am in the process of building a new system and I am looking to buy a new gpu as part as my new build but gpu prices right now are insane.  I was thinking of getting an rtx 2070 used but the cheapest I have seen one on the used marked was still over $500.
> 
> ...



I would suggest buying a laptop, you get more for your money these days.  If you are concerned about future expansion / upgradeability, just make sure it has Thunderbolt 3 or 4.   The only thing that can't be upgraded is the CPU, so make sure to get a fast 6 or 8 core.  

$900 will still buy you a decent gaming laptop with a slightly slower version of a GPU that is going for $450 these days.  At current prices it just doesn't make a lot of sense to build a desktop.


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## Chomiq (Jan 6, 2021)

One thing's for sure, they won't come back to normal anytime soon with Chinese new year on the horizon.


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## yotano211 (Jan 6, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> I would suggest buying a laptop, you get more for your money these days.  If you are concerned about future expansion / upgradeability, just make sure it has Thunderbolt 3 or 4.   The only thing that can't be upgraded is the CPU, so make sure to get a fast 6 or 8 core.
> 
> $900 will still buy you a decent gaming laptop with a slightly slower version of a GPU that is going for $450 these days.  At current prices it just doesn't make a lot of sense to build a desktop.


Even laptop prices are kinda high these days, I'm seeing them being about 10-20% higher than they should be.


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## RandallFlagg (Jan 6, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> Even laptop prices are kinda high these days, I'm seeing them being about 10-20% higher than they should be.



Not gaming laptops.  They are about the same as they were pre-covid from what I can tell, and I was looking back then as my original intention was to replace my old 7700HQ / 1070 laptop with a new one.  I built a desktop instead.  One that I was almost ready to get until I read about overheat / design issues, was the Asus A15.  It's still easily obtained for $999 with a 2060, which is what I was looking at.

However the thin and lights, ultrabooks, 2-in-1 and such - they are definitely higher, maybe more than 20%.   Even non-gaming refurbs are higher.


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## yotano211 (Jan 6, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> Not gaming laptops.  They are about the same as they were pre-covid from what I can tell, and I was looking back then as my original intention was to replace my old 7700HQ / 1070 laptop with a new one.  I built a desktop instead.  One that I was almost ready to get until I read about overheat / design issues, was the Asus A15.  It's still easily obtained for $999 with a 2060, which is what I was looking at.
> 
> However the thin and lights, ultrabooks, 2-in-1 and such - they are definitely higher, maybe more than 20%.   Even non-gaming refurbs are higher.


Oh sorry, I meant to say the used laptop market. New laptop market is still about the same price.


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## dirtyferret (Jan 6, 2021)

stoggs1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> So I am in the process of building a new system and I am looking to buy a new gpu as part as my new build but gpu prices right now are insane.  I was thinking of getting an rtx 2070 used but the cheapest I have seen one on the used marked was still over $500.
> 
> ...


I would expect a better supply of PC part after the chinese new year (and hopefully a new trade agreement that will lower tariffs) so I would start looking for a new GPU in late March - early April assuming you can wait that long.


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## Hardcore Games (Jan 6, 2021)

My RTX 2080 still sells for close to MSRP, so much for price rot


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## Nitro-Max (Jan 6, 2021)

They've been going up ever since the 1080ti


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## ThrashZone (Jan 6, 2021)

Hi,
Sadly a new norm will appear.


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## oobymach (Jan 6, 2021)

ebay and newegg are part of the problem so don't buy from them right now, in Canada at least one retailer memoryexpress isn't scalping, they're selling at normal prices, or at least as normal as you can get with shit the way it is.


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## purecain (Jan 6, 2021)

I think the best advice is to just keep your eyes constantly peeled for deals. 

It's hard to predict whats going to happen atm imo...


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## quakebox (Jan 6, 2021)

When Manufacturers flood the market again now there is low stock, also when retailers defeat scalpers.

eBay is part of the problem but newegg is not really they do need to add protective measures though against scalpers.


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## jboydgolfer (Jan 7, 2021)

any well known tech store that hosts 3rd party selling is a part of system that allows scalpers to do better. newegg, amazon, walmart, etc. they each have listings of $400 GPU's selling at 2x+MSRP. meaning they are all giving these scumbags a platform by which they can sell their loot. if all these guys were forced to only sell on places like ebay, their customer base would be more than halved. i dont think it would eradicate them, but i do think it would hurt their business. 

aside from making it entirely unpleasant for builders & enthusiasts, it makes manufacturers look like fools. for months we listened to that chinese guy from nvidia spouting this & that hype about raytracing & real time diaper shadows made possible by the new RTX 3xxx series, then they finally release, & theyre nowhere to be found.  

the best thing people can do is wait, it wont kill buyers to wait, but it will hurt scalpers, it will hurt alot.


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## purecain (Jan 7, 2021)

Maybe some of us could get together to buy a whole batch of gpu's... Then supply the community ourselves. 

I'm sure we would get support from literally everyone.


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## xpg9 (Jan 7, 2021)

I bit the bullet and paid about 100 dollars more for what I thought was a used rx6800xt xfx merc 319  turned up as a sealed box worth it


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## Lei (Jul 27, 2021)

AMD is shipping RX6600xt on August 11 and nVidia's answer will be to replenish 3060 stock. Intel Xe-HPG graphics cards coming this year. 

Don't know if this helps but I was tracking 14 terabyte western digital hard drives, they dropped from 395$ to 275$ on July 23rd. Perhaps Chia mining also got banned.


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## RandallFlagg (Jul 27, 2021)

Some of the news implies there may be an oversupply of chips come Q4.   Expected softening of demand from TI, also aligning with decreasing current delivery and orders for new computers.    I suspect PC / Server demand got front-loaded into 2H 2020-1H 2021 and will experience a big dip in the coming months, CCP and EU playing whack a mole with miners helps too.


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## GerKNG (Jul 27, 2021)

MSRP Prices? never. they are PR.

10-20% above MSRP? if you lucky you can get them all the time for these prices. if not you pay an extra 50-100 bucks. but that's still better than pay 2 grand for a 3070 like in april...


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 28, 2021)

300 for a low end gpu is stupid


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## Fangio1951 (Jul 28, 2021)

Wait - let me check my crystal ball...........it says around 2025


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## Lei (Jul 28, 2021)

Yesterday my 670 died, just one day after I experienced Forza 4. I think the reason is the thick thermal pads I used on its back. 

Today I paid for a 1060 6gb. It costed me 3080's real price minus 3080 msrp minus 1060 watercooling block

I'm not a devoted gamer, so I was dubious between 3080 and A4000. This 1060 will give me a chance to investigate my vram appetite
Fun fact : my pc can not sleep without a display driver!


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## Ripcord (Jul 28, 2021)

When Intel enters the market


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 28, 2021)

I got a secondhand MSI 980ti for £190 which i was pretty chuffed about. Haven't even bothered trying to get anything 2xxx or 3xxx


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## cvaldes (Jul 28, 2021)

Ripcord said:


> When Intel enters the market


Nope.

First of all, Intel manufactures their own chips. Nvidia and AMD on the other hand contract out their manufacturing to Samsung and TSMC. Intel is not competing for that limited foundry capacity. Note that Samsung and TSMC also produce chips for other chip designers like Apple, Qualcomm, etc. Moreover Samsung produces their own Samsung branded chips on their own production lines.

Everyone is competing for tight supplies of materials like substrate.

And capacity issues won't be solved quickly. Starting a new fab takes over a billion dollars of capital investment and 2+ years to bring online.

It's worth pointing out that the CEOs of Intel, Nvidia, and AMD have all explicitly mentioned ongoing supply issues through 2022. I figure they probably have a good idea of the market forces.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 28, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> Nope.
> 
> First of all, Intel manufactures their own chips. Nvidia and AMD on the other hand contract out their manufacturing to Samsung and TSMC. Intel is not competing for that limited foundry capacity. Note that Samsung and TSMC also produce chips for other chip designers like Apple, Qualcomm, etc.
> 
> ...



Well they certainly have the $$ but they can't do nothing about time or substrate supplies.


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## cvaldes (Jul 28, 2021)

A lot of the capacity for the next 6-12 months is already booked. Companies like Apple make massive prepayments to guarantee capacity and material. It's up to the foundries to juggle their various customers' desires.

Money doesn't matter as much when there's limited availability. Look at the PC graphics card market. Most of the production is being allocated to OEMs and major system builders. Some of the material and capacity is also going to the new generation videogame consoles. That X amount of substrate going into a Xbox Series X/S or PS5 isn't going into a consumer graphics card.

It has been well covered by the tech media that the big chip companies are honoring their OEM/enterprise commitments at the expense of the DIY market. They are also favoring high-margin high-end chips for the DIY market which makes financial sense.

If you want a PC graphics card at a reasonable price right now, you pretty much have to buy a pre-built system. This doesn't just mean the HPs and Dells of the world. There are bricks-and-mortar mom-and-pop stores that actually have good GPUs in stock but they will require you to purchase 3-4 other components (CPU, PSU, memory, drive, etc.) to be able to walk away with a graphics card.

If you don't want to do that, you have to be patient.

My own guess is that standalone GPUs won't reach MSRP until mid-2023.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jul 28, 2021)

Depends on what is considered normal..... If the pandemic has taught me anything gamers have much deeper pockets than I originally thought and Nvidia/Amd know this. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the high end gets bumped to 2000 usd for fhe 80 ti/90 tier and the 80 tier gets bumped to 1000 usd with mid range starting at 5-600 usd.

I'm betting both AMD and Nvidia are kicking themselves for releasing the 6800XT and the 3080 for their 650-699 usd msrps when they would have all sold out instantly at 50-80% higher msrps.

I also have a feeling that gamers with  a budget between 200-300 usd will have to source decent gpus from the used market.


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## cvaldes (Jul 28, 2021)

oxrufiioxo said:


> I also have a feeling that gamers with  a budget between 200-300 usd will have to source decent gpus from the used market.


The used GPU market is still a Greek tragedy.

I bought a Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 580 8GB card for $180 a year ago (the RX 580's April 2017 launch price was $230). Theoretically, this card with four-year old architecture really shouldn't be more than $150 brand new today since it's two generations old.

A new RX 580 on Amazon is $800 right now, almost 4.5x what I paid a year ago. Even used cards in good shape are going for $500-$550, basically 3x last year's retail price (for a new card).

I also picked up an RX 550 2GB card last year for $65 (launch price $80). Again, that card -- if it can even be found -- is nearly $300 street price, 4.6x what I paid. I also bought a GeForce 2070 SUPER FE at the full $500 MSRP a year ago. This card easily commands 4x (over $2000) street price right now.

The used GPU market isn't a realistic option for someone with a tight budget. They are better off buying an Xbox Series X/S or PS5 if they are just trying to game.

The only two reasonable options are A.) buy pre-built system or B.) wait.

For Americans it's worth entering the Newegg Shuffle. I got my 3080 that way. I'd never pay a dime to a scalper.


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## ThrashZone (Jul 28, 2021)

Hi,
Did anyone pick never lol 
Welcome to the new normal.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jul 28, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> The used GPU market is still a Greek tragedy.



Talking about more whenever prices plateau.... I sold a Titan Xp for 880 usd still shaking my head on that one. The two most recent times the gpu market has been like this I've benefit though.  

2020/21 has been much worse in my opinion than 2017/18.... Sold 2 1080s during the last mining craze for more than what I paid for them.


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## mb194dc (Jul 28, 2021)

Seems like GPUs are in stock now looking at UK online retailers. With very high prices though.

Prices going down will depend on the economic situation as furlough ends and things try go back to normal.  

No incentive yet for retailers to try compete with each other. 

6 to 12 months ?


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## ixi (Jul 28, 2021)

Ripcord said:


> When Intel enters the market



Doubt that intel will change anything in price. They gonna price them high. Why lose money?


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## cvaldes (Jul 28, 2021)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Talking about more whenever prices plateau.... I sold a Titan Xp for 880 usd still shaking my head on that one. The two most recent times the gpu market has been like this I've benefit though.
> 
> 2020/21 has been much worse in my opinion than 2017/18.... Sold 2 1080s during the last mining craze for more than what I paid for them.


The only people who are benefitting from the current market are scalpers and the few who exclusively sell right now.

If you sell a card at a great profit but end up replacing it with a card that you have to shell out extra for, you are still coming out behind. My guess is that some of the prebuilt systems are being disassembled and resold as components. Even most of the components are sold at a fraction of the price, the GPU upcharge will cover those shortcomings. 

One thing for sure: substrate/materials scarcity won't be solved in six months and extra capacity isn't coming for years.

Each batch of the unreleased Nintendo Switch OLED is selling out quickly and this is not new silicon on the latest process node. Likewise the automobile industry is idling some factories because they can't get enough chips (which are also on older process nodes).

This goes FAR beyond the DIY GPU market.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jul 28, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> The only people who are benefitting from the current market are scalpers and the few who exclusively sell right now.
> 
> If you sell a card at a great profit but end up replacing it with a card that you have to shell out extra for, you are still coming out behind. My guess is that some of the prebuilt systems are being disassembled and resold as components. Even most of the components are sold at a fraction of the price, the GPU upcharge will cover those shortcomings.



Fair enough, but 620 usd out of pocket for a 3080 ti is much better than it's 1500 usd with tax asking price.

Had the market been more normal I would have gotten an 1800 plus tax 3090 and my Titan XP would have sold for 50% less so for me personally the current situation is better.

So no I didn't come out behind depending on how you look at it.... Same with the previous gpu shortageI turned 2 1080s into a Titan Xp and pocketed 300 usd wanted to get away from sli so it worked out perfectly.


I do feel bad for those people who sold their 2080 ti prior to the 3080 launch for 500 usd though bet they are kicking themselves. Was tempted to pick up a couple.


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## cvaldes (Jul 28, 2021)

If there was no price gouging, you'd get little for your Titan XP since anyone could buy a 3080 for $800-900 or a 3090 for $1500-1700 MSRP. The 3060 is realistically a $250 card tops.

It's supply and demand in a free market economy. Real estate is the same. If I sell my house (in a premium market like the SF Bay Area), I'll make a lot of money but if I want to buy in the same market, I have to pay more.

The only way to get ahead is to sell any old GPUs you have and change markets: the new generation videogame console specifically if your intention is gaming.

If I sold my RX 580 for $500, there's no way I could get improved graphics power at that price. Except by buying a new-gen console.

I bought my 3080 via Newegg Shuffle at $1070 list, a price that was already inflated by Asus. Normally something like an ASUS TUF Gaming variant should be about $50 over the Founders Edition card. And that's how it was originally priced. I basically paid $200 extra for a card that should nominally be about $850-870. I didn't come out ahead. The only way I could break even would have been to find the unicorn, the 3080 FE at Best Buy for $799. Trust me, I tried and I failed to score one.

Basically every single Ampere GPU that isn't a Founders Edition card being sold at Nvidia's MSRP is coming at a premium, whether it be the AIB partner, the retailer, or worse via a scalper.

It's not "how you look at it" [sic]. Nobody buying right now is coming out ahead. Period.

THIS IS A SELLERS MARKET RIGHT NOW. The only way for a buyer to come out ahead is to wait for a buyers market. This is not unique to the PC graphics card market. That's how a free market works.

There are always market forces that buyers and sellers can't control. Capacity and material availability are two major contributing factors right now for the PC graphics card business.


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## 64K (Jul 28, 2021)

The prices have been whack-a-doodle for a while now. I just checked Ebay and the sold prices for my MSI 2070 Super are around $600 for used. That's $100 more than I paid for it new.

When will prices return to normal?

When the parasite scalpers are gone and the miners stop hoarding GPUs. Who knows when that will be.


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## Lei (Jul 28, 2021)

Just for the record, the 1060 I paid for today, was 50$ more last week, mid May it was 130$ more expensive than today.
And mid February it was same price as it is today. before Dec 23 it was 70$ cheaper than today at its minimum as far as the javascript bot keeps tracks of.

I do have the money to buy 3080 street price right now, but I think I can wait with 1060 until 3080 drops as much as I paid for 1060
My monitor max resolution is 1080, which means I can play Forza 4 at ultra preset with this card
Also, I rather not brick a 3080 by misusing thermal pads, a 1060 is more experiment friendly 

hmm, may be next week a 1070 will be sold at today's 1060 price


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## oxrufiioxo (Jul 28, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> Basically every single Ampere GPU that isn't a Founders Edition card being sold at Nvidia's MSRP is coming at a premium, whether it be the AIB partner, the retailer, or worse via a scalper.




Yeah, I don't mind a 200 usd markup over the 3080 ti FE though it's pretty terrible. The only FE model I would consider is the 3090 regardless.
This isn't any different than when I picked up a 2080 ti though FE was 1200 my model the Stix OC about 200 usd more.

3080 aib at launch weren't that bad though I could get a couple different models for 7-800 usd but that 10GB vram was a turn off although the 12GB on my card is barely adequate imo.
Sorta kicking myself for not picked up a Tuf for 749 usd when I had the chance though....

Things are obviously whacko now lol.


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## Lei (Oct 13, 2021)

I ended up buying 1070 after my 670 died. Here's how prices changed in the same shop. I got mine on August 2, just before prices started to rise again.




Since I got mine at 1949, it went upto 2599 (+33%) and now is 2099 (+7%)
Luckily I found a 1080Ti waterblock for it and with minor sanding, it idles at 27° and barely reaches 55° under load


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## Lei (Feb 13, 2022)

Just recently, the rtx1070 which I bought on August 2nd, went lower in price.
From August 2 to Feb 11, it never went below 1949 yuan, yet inflated to 2599 early Sep.






After 6 months, it's 8$ cheaper


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## MarsM4N (Feb 13, 2022)

Over here we got the last days/weeks huge GPU price drops & full stocks, esp. for AMD.
Bet resellers where creating *artificial scarcity* to melk the christmas shoppers.  Let's see if it continues to go down even more.

- cheapest RX 6800 / Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 6800, 16GB GDDR6, HDMI, 3x DP (11305-02-20G)   *[*27.01.2022 = *1.475€* / 11.02.2022 = *1.029€]*
- cheapest RX 6800XT / XFX Speedster SWFT 319 Radeon RX 6800 XT Core Gaming, 16GB GDDR6, HDMI, 3x DP (RX-68XTAQFD9)   *[*20.01.2022 = *1.339€* / 10.02.2022 = *1.139€]*
- cheapest RTX 3070 / ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 3070 V2 (LHR), DUAL-RTX3070-8G-V2, 8GB GDDR6, 2x HDMI, 3x DP (90YV0FQD-M0NA00)  * [*13.01.2022 = *1.099€* / 13.02.2022 = *829€]*
- cheapest RTX 3080 / Palit GeForce RTX 3080 GamingPro V1 (LHR), 10GB GDDR6X, HDMI, 3x DP (NED3080019IA-132AA)*   [*26.01.2022 = *1.375€* / 13.02.2022 = *1.230€]*


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## cvaldes (Feb 13, 2022)

If "normal" means pre-COVID-19 pricing, forget it. We are approaching the two year anniversary of this pandemic.

There are two major factors here.

The first is inflation which has skyrocketed massively in the past year. 

The second is supply-demand imbalance. The semiconductor industry can't pump out enough chips to satisfy the marketplace. This will eventually be rectified by increased capacity but it takes over a billion dollars and years to bring a new foundry to production.

I get it. I bought a ghetto Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 550 2GB card in September 2020 for $65, about $14 below the original April 2017 $79 launch price. Today entry-level RTX 3050/RX 6500 GPUs have MSRPs around $250 and end up with street prices at $400+.

There is no chance that a $250 MSRP card is going to end up at $65-70.

My guess is that the era of the sub $100 GPU is deader than dead.

If you want to play videogames on new hardware on a budget, go find a Nintendo Switch OLED.


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## RealKGB (Feb 13, 2022)

In all likelihood, probably never.
Remember the iPhone X and its "insane" $999 MSRP?
What happened after that? Phone prices went up.

Since people are willing to buy GPUs at higher prices, corporations will keep prices that way, because that means more money.


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## R0H1T (Feb 13, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> If you want to play videogames on new hardware on a budget, go find a Nintendo Switch OLED.


Or get a 5700G or any other new APU AMD's releasing?

5700G is technically the cheapest GPU with somewhat "playable" frame frates.


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## Lei (Feb 13, 2022)

Oh yeah, I see 3080 has dropped 600元 (95$)

And I was thinking about Gigabyte Waterforce. its price is same as the air-cooled cards, but it can save me a water block ($100). However I discovered that the vrams are not covered by water, with pipes instead. Not sure if that is what I want. 
I'd definitely consider Gigabyte Waterforce if it had the regular block.  

So we're down to 1.65x msrp from 1.8x


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## Lei (Feb 15, 2022)

Here's my prediction based on 3dCenter triweekly report.
100% MSRP at either mid April, late July or early June 2024
If it keeps dropping like the last three weeks, it's April. If it drops like the 8% in 3 weeks, then mid summer. It makes sense, because Lovelace will arrive in Q3~4 this year, so they want to sell Ampere at msrp before the launch:






3dCenter report for Feb 13   -> News des 12./13. Februar 2022 | 3DCenter.org


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## Steevo (Feb 16, 2022)

When Crypto is banned.

I finally see some use for crypto, supporting the freedom convoy in Canada.

Beyond that it’s useless.


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## Fangio1951 (Feb 16, 2022)

Prices will probably drop when the Nvidia RTX4xxx cards are released......


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## ir_cow (Feb 16, 2022)

Prices will never return. Now that companies know they can get away with higher prices, they won't go back. The next cycle will not have MSRPs.....


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 16, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> Prices will never return. Now that companies know they can get away with higher prices, they won't go back. The next cycle will not have MSRPs.....


At this rate I'd rather have an older bnib card than an overpriced (ab)used card.


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## freeagent (Feb 16, 2022)

I sure would feel a lot more comfy abusing mine if there were more around lol.. up saying those words and everything is available for purchase in my home town.. 2000 bucks plus tax for a 3080 Ti.. damn.. 2150 for a Gigabyte one lol.. crazy days.. better than 3500 I guess.


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## JrRacinFan (Feb 16, 2022)

I hope Alchemist does compete with 3070's directly if/when the drivers get sorted out. This should help some unless AIB's do what everyone else is doing .....



freeagent said:


> I sure would feel a lot more comfy abusing mine if there were more around lol.. up saying those words and everything is available for purchase in my home town.. 2000 bucks plus tax for a 3080 Ti.. damn.. 2150 for a Gigabyte one lol.. crazy days.. better than 3500 I guess.


this is why im reluctant to install my cheapo block on the 2060 KO


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## MarsM4N (Feb 16, 2022)

Asus is now selling the ASUS TUF-RX6800-O16G-GAMING *directly on eBay for 1.029€*. Best price, but still around 400 bucks over MSRP.
Didn't know they have an eShop, lol.

Guess it will get better towards summer. Production & availability increases, demand due to summer activity (holiday trips, outside activity, partying, getting wasted & laid, etc.) decreases.
And towards christmas time they likely will raise the prices again. Because they saw they can get away with it.


----------



## Lei (Mar 7, 2022)

3DCenter new report shows another dive:
Ethereum will abandon mining in Q2 2022:  The Merge | ethereum.org
There will be a new Need for Speed in Sep/Oct and Lovelace : Tom Henderson Tweet
and GTA6 is... Rockstar
Epic Unreal Engine 5 must be coming very soon


----------



## Lei (Mar 28, 2022)

New report from 3DCenter:





But here are covid cases in Korea, if this thing hits China or Taiwan, we may have manufacturing shortage:


----------



## Lei (Apr 17, 2022)

I doubt if today's report will be 16% price decease.
Korea reached over 16 million cases, 4.4 million new in last three weeks. 31% of their total population.
Taiwan also getting thousand cases everyday:


----------



## Lei (Apr 18, 2022)

3DCenter 6th report is out.
That yellow line shows that Ethereum is annoying again. Sack of bones (Vitalik Buterin) is to blame. 





Unreal Engine 5 was released and Maya brought back ViewCube:


----------



## ThrashZone (Apr 18, 2022)

stoggs1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> So I am in the process of building a new system and I am looking to buy a new gpu as part as my new build but gpu prices right now are insane.  I was thinking of getting an rtx 2070 used but the cheapest I have seen one on the used marked was still over $500.
> 
> ...


Hi,
Never
Welcome to the new norm


----------



## 80251 (Apr 21, 2022)

I agree with ThrashZone, the days of cheap gaming GPU's are gone for good. LOL, I remember when I thought $300 was a lot for an ATI 9800xt. I never figured Nvidia Ti cards would be selling for more than twice what my 1080ti retailed for.


----------



## Jetster (May 7, 2022)

So RTX 3080 is down to $850. To all the ones that paid the inflated prices, I hope you're happy with your purchases


----------



## eidairaman1 (May 7, 2022)

When Mining goes bust and inflation has been stopped...



Jetster said:


> So RTX 3080 is down to $850. To all the ones that paid the inflated prices, I hope you're happy with your purchases


Which even at 850 its still inflated


----------



## Lei (May 7, 2022)

based on my own tracking, this time price decrease will be around 6% again:
although yuan-usd exchange rate changed dramatically in last 3 weeks, so 114% could be in fact 110%
anyway, gpu went down like the last report. 



At home of TMSC, covid in Taiwan went from 1000 daily cases to 36000 per day over the last three weeks.
This will affect silicon wafer supply for AMD, Apple, and nVidia....


----------



## Lei (May 9, 2022)

7th report.
nVidia may reveal some specs of Ada Lovelace during Summer Game Festival which begins in June.


----------



## mama (May 9, 2022)

Short answer: never.  "Normal" never existed.


----------



## Warigator (May 11, 2022)

mama said:


> Short answer: never.  "Normal" never existed.


High-end (enthusiast) cards costed $400-500 for many years. It was the normal.


----------



## Bomby569 (May 11, 2022)

i see crazy low prices in the US, but at least in Europe, my country and EU online stores i see lower prices but nothing crazy, they are still way over MSRP


----------



## Jetster (May 13, 2022)

Tadasuke said:


> High-end (enthusiast) cards costed $400-500 for many years. It was the normal.



I paid $599 for a GeForce 8800 GTX in 2006 I still have it in a working PC. And yes, there is a normal. Its the MSRP


----------



## Frick (May 13, 2022)

Tadasuke said:


> High-end (enthusiast) cards costed $400-500 for many years. It was the normal.



Sometimes they did, but there have been lots of variation. The 8800 Ultra was more than $800 ($1100 today). Many cards on the highest end (the 6990, 7990, 590, 690, 780ti and so on) were $700+. The 980ti was the first top end (but not really top end as the Titans started to come up) product in a long while that was cheaper (before the price slash). At this point in time I'd say the $500 for the high end GPU cannot be considered normal.

And inflation is really important. $500 in 2010 is $662 now. GPU prices are way too high for sure, but there is no way in heck a high end GPU will ever be $500 ever again.

Found a nice graph from 2017.












						Inflation adjusted price history of high end Nvidia GPUs tabulated - Graphics - News - HEXUS.net
					






					m.hexus.net


----------



## chrcoluk (May 13, 2022)

We not going back to even Pascal prices which at the time were high compared to Maxwell.

I expect prices to go up again when 4000 series launches, end of gen is always best time to buy.


----------



## mb194dc (May 13, 2022)

Probably find that they return to pre 2020 pricing or even lower within 12-18 months.

The kicker could well be that due to other economic problems most will struggle to buy one anyway!


----------



## 80251 (May 13, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> We not going back to even Pascal prices which at the time were high compared to Maxwell.
> 
> I expect prices to go up again when 4000 series launches, end of gen is always best time to buy.


Will prices go up for Ampere parts as well? Or just for the equivalent 4000 series parts?


----------



## chrcoluk (May 13, 2022)

80251 said:


> Will prices go up for Ampere parts as well? Or just for the equivalent 4000 series parts?


Both in my opinion, as Ampere stock goes down to very low levels because its no longer made prices will go up, at least thats whats been happening in the UK the past few generations.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (May 13, 2022)

Frick said:


> Found a nice graph from 2017.



That's not a nice graph. Its clearly a cubic spline with "overshoots" for the lines vs the dots. For a graph with that kind of data, they should have used a monotone cubic hermite instead.

/nerd talk.

Anyway, that's some really interesting information. I think that when I was poorer college student, I wouldn't have been looking at those higher-end cards. But its important to realize that those high-end halo products always existed.

EDIT: The 6900 XT and RTX 3090 were well in excess of $1000 though. Maybe one could argue that 3090 was a Titan-class card and should be cut out?


----------



## 80251 (May 13, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> Both in my opinion, as Ampere stock goes down to very low levels because its no linger made prices will go up, at least thats whats been happening in the UK the past few generations.


Great now I have something to look forward to...


----------



## Lei (May 14, 2022)

The point is, non-rgb models get sold out. You'll end up with Asus if you're shooting for brand new. 


80251 said:


> Great now I have something to look forward to...


----------



## AlwaysHope (May 14, 2022)

Prices have come down by hundreds of dollars over here in Australia atm. Wonder how long this will go on for?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (May 14, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> Prices have come down by hundreds of dollars over here in Australia atm. Wonder how long this will go on for?



Who knows?  If a) crypto stays down and b) we're approaching a sated consumer market, then pricing could easily continue downward for a bit yet.  Personally not holding my breath, though.  Weirdly enough, inflation could introduce negative price pressure as buyers cut back on discretionary purchases.  100% speculation on my part.


----------



## AlwaysHope (May 15, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Who knows?  If a) crypto stays down and b) we're approaching a sated consumer market, then pricing could easily continue downward for a bit yet.  Personally not holding my breath, though.  Weirdly enough, inflation could introduce negative price pressure as buyers cut back on discretionary purchases.  100% speculation on my part.


True, no individual has control over inflation & that is the biggest threat atm to pricing trends.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (May 15, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> True, no individual has control over inflation & that is the biggest threat atm to pricing trends.



Ummm...





GPU prices are dropping the higher and higher inflation goes up yo.


----------



## Vayra86 (May 15, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> We not going back to even Pascal prices which at the time were high compared to Maxwell.
> 
> I expect prices to go up again when 4000 series launches, end of gen is always best time to buy.


That isnt too surprising as the overall performance range of cards is a lot wider than it was, higher resolutions are simply a new segment you could say, because there is absolutely no need to go there 'to game well'.

But the norm that will return eventually though is that there is a decent card at every price point.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 15, 2022)

Frick said:


> Sometimes they did, but there have been lots of variation. The 8800 Ultra was more than $800 ($1100 today). Many cards on the highest end (the 6990, 7990, 590, 690, 780ti and so on) were $700+. The 980ti was the first top end (but not really top end as the Titans started to come up) product in a long while that was cheaper (before the price slash). At this point in time I'd say the $500 for the high end GPU cannot be considered normal.
> 
> And inflation is really important. $500 in 2010 is $662 now. GPU prices are way too high for sure, but there is no way in heck a high end GPU will ever be $500 ever again.
> 
> ...




I think people just look at a tier like GTX 580 vs 3080 and think oh they should be the same price even though what the 580 offered and the 3080 offers are two drastically different things.

A 6750XT/3070 is actually the more directly priced competitor to what the 580 was priced at ignoring inflation. Honestly I wouldn't want to go back to when the flagship non titan card capped out at 500 usd..... I'd rather have a choice/option to spend 1000+ on something drastically better than a 3070 tier gpu. 

it's hard to compare but flagship gpu handled demanding games substantially more poorly at 1080p when the best cards offered capped at 500 bucks.



Metro sticks out to me because I remember how bad it ran on my SLI 580s at 1440p

I think the bigger issue these days is the sub 250 usd market is basically dead the cards are so cut down that I wouldn't feel good recommending them to anyone.... It's so bad that older options other than power draw are more appealing.


----------



## ThrashZone (May 15, 2022)

Hi,
Lots of evga b-stock items 
Only 1 year warranty and prices aren't earth shattering low either.
1080 gaming 400.us lol


			https://www.evga.com/products/productlist.aspx?type=8


----------



## Jetster (May 16, 2022)

Crypto is down, manufacturing is up. If it wasn't for inflation prices would be below MSRP


----------



## Lei (May 16, 2022)

link


----------



## gffermari (May 21, 2022)

There are some eye catching prices in the used market right now.
I'm really tempted to replace my 2080Ti.

Is there a chance to have a second price war like the one we had when the 30 gen released?
If the 40 gen are untouchable because of the prices or the availability or both, then we will face again a price increase on the 30 models which now are priced interestingly in the used market.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 21, 2022)

gffermari said:


> There are some eye catching prices in the used market right now.
> I'm really tempted to replace my 2080Ti.
> 
> Is there a chance to have a second price war like the one we had when the 30 gen released?
> If the 40 gen are untouchable because of the prices or the availability or both, then we will face again a price increase on the 30 models which now are priced interestingly in the used market.



There will always be idiots who fire sell their $h!+ to get the latest and greatest. Wouldn't be shocked to see some 3080 10G and 6800XT at ridiculously low prices on ebay whenever Lovelace is announced.


----------



## Bomby569 (May 21, 2022)

gffermari said:


> There are some eye catching prices in the used market right now.
> I'm really tempted to replace my 2080Ti.
> 
> Is there a chance to have a second price war like the one we had when the 30 gen released?
> If the 40 gen are untouchable because of the prices or the availability or both, then we will face again a price increase on the 30 models which now are priced interestingly in the used market.



that only happened because the 2*** series was absolute dogshit, insane prices and very little performance gain, made the 3*** series look amazing in comparison. It will depend on the value of the new cards compared to the 3*** series.


----------



## gffermari (May 21, 2022)

I don't know how much the rumor that 4090Ti=2x3090 affected the prices of the gpus in the used market but it's really tempting to fire the gun for a 3090.

I assume a 4080 16GB will cost 749£(MSRP=3080MSRP+inflation+nVidia tax) and perform like a 3090(+/-2%) and a 4090 about 30% over 3090Ti.
The retail prices though may be like 1000£ for the 4080....


----------



## Bomby569 (May 21, 2022)

gffermari said:


> I don't know how much the rumor that 4090Ti=2x3090


That seems absurd and based on some weird obscure benchmark or application


----------



## ARF (May 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> That seems absurd and based on some weird obscure benchmark or application



It is in your best interest to be true..


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> That seems absurd and based on some weird obscure benchmark or application



Although I'm not a huge fan of rumors either the performance leaks for a 4090ti has consistently been rumored to be 2x the 3090 the problem is the rumored price is 2000+ usd so it really should be compared to a 3090ti I'm guessing these projections are at 4k with RT enabled.

Also the fire sale will begin when Nvidia shows graphs telling it's fanboys how great the 40 series is over the 30 series not from actual benchmarks.....


----------



## ARF (May 21, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> the performance leaks for a 4090ti has consistently been rumored to be 2x the 3090



and the expected power targets of 600-watts+ are quite telling, also


----------



## Bomby569 (May 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> and the expected power targets of 600-watts+ are quite telling, also



and 5 slot cards with 4 fans


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> and 5 slot cards with 4 fans



4 slots fo sho


----------



## R0H1T (May 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> and *5 slot *cards with 4 fans


So good for roulette then?


----------



## ARF (May 21, 2022)

They all should be under water and single-slot


----------



## R0H1T (May 21, 2022)

Yes & should also cost less than $500


----------



## ARF (May 21, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Yes & should also cost less than $500



No, I think $849.99 is fair enough


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (May 21, 2022)

The GPU price slide may have hit something of a plateau.  EVGA's B-Stock page today has a slew of cards, but they're asking dumb money (IMO) for them.  $600 for a refurb 1080 ti? That's only $100 under what it _launched_ at. Most of the other cards on the list are near, at or above launch price. Which may sound encouraging, but these are refurbs of cards that are as much as five years old now. A used 970 on eBay US is still going to cost you at least a hundred bones. RX 580s seem to be stuck at a $180-ish price floor. I dunno; just not feeling very optimistic today.


----------



## ThrashZone (May 21, 2022)

Hi,
Yep many evga b-stock only one year warranty for stupid prices.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (May 21, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yep many evga b-stock only one year warranty for stupid prices.



Seems like where we _should_ be is more like $200 for a 1070, maybe $400 for 1080 ti. At the top end. Maybe in six months.


----------



## Bomby569 (May 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Seems like where we _should_ be is more like $200 for a 1070, maybe $400 for 1080 ti. At the top end. Maybe in six months.



1080ti is over 5 years, a few months from becoming 3 generations ago. Almost on par with the 3060, it will be most probably a 4050 competitor. It should be way cheaper then that.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (May 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> 1080ti is over 5 years, a few months from becoming 3 generations ago. Almost on par with the 3060, it will be most probably a 4050 competitor. It should be way cheaper then that.



Yeah, with a 200 dollar baseline for a 2070, something in the realm of 300 would make more sense.  Maybe even less.


----------



## cvaldes (May 22, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> RX 580s seem to be stuck at a $180-ish price floor. I dunno; just not feeling very optimistic today.


Don't worry. Prices will continue to fluctuate.

I bought a brand new RX 580 for $180 in fall 2020. I also bought a new RX 550 for $65 around the same time.

That said, inflation has skyrocketed.

No one will ever pay 2019 prices for equivalent GPUs in 2022 or 2023. 

All of those morons saying "I won't buy another graphics card until prices come back to 2019 levels" will never EVER buy another graphics card again.


----------



## PapaTaipei (May 22, 2022)

purecain said:


> Maybe some of us could get together to buy a whole batch of gpu's... Then supply the community ourselves.
> 
> I'm sure we would get support from literally everyone.


This looks like the smartest thing to do, in France we have a website called groupon where you could organize that.


----------



## Metroid (May 22, 2022)

September 2022 to all the way to September 2024, you will find gpus at msrp without any issue, will be even lot cheaper than msrp second hand.


----------



## budget_Optiplex (May 22, 2022)

Anecdotal data, but i watch ebay GPUs under $100 every day for fun. I have noticed that decent lower-end used older GPUs are finally becoming reasonable again. 2GB GTX 750 Ti's that were $100-$150 a few months ago are now $60-$100, and 2GB GTX 950s that were $140+ a few months ago are now $70-$100. Also plenty of older AMD 2GB HD 7800 series cards and 2GB R9 cards for less then $100 too. 4GB RX550s are finally showing up for less then $100 as well. Hopefully these will continue to come down in price as they should!

Still expensive for old cards, but way more affordable now for sure. I can't get over what GTX 1030/1050 cards are selling for though.


----------



## PapaTaipei (May 22, 2022)

4080 ti would be 500 euros or less if the market was not a cartel.


----------



## Bomby569 (May 22, 2022)

PapaTaipei said:


> 4080 ti would be 500 euros or less if the market was not a cartel.



Now you're going to the other extreme, these are very complex products, and much more complex then in the past, bigger coolers, better power delivery, etc... Accounting for inflation 500€ for the top tier Nvidia card would be way to cheap. And in euros it already includes taxes, so in USD it would be 400$, that makes no sense.


----------



## PapaTaipei (May 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Now you're going to the other extreme, these are very complex products, and much more complex then in the past, bigger coolers, better power delivery, etc... Accounting for inflation 500€ for the top tier Nvidia card would be way to cheap. And in euros it already includes taxes, so in USD it would be 400$, that makes no sense.


What make no sens is the official narrative about how economics work.


----------



## ARF (May 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> bigger coolers, better power delivery, etc...



To be honest, I do not think any user has ever asked them to push the TDP through the roof and make the cooling of the cards an extremely challenging adventure.

There is more illogical thinking in the management of AMD than proper pro-user attitude and attention to really what the user needs.

Look at the Radeon RX 6600 - the cheapest model is priced 333 eur. The same performance and price as the old Radeon RX 5700 XT original MSRP in 2019 and RTX 2060 S back in 2019..

This is against progress and does not work for the market.

It is like the development was stopped and there is really nothing interesting happening.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 22, 2022)

ARF said:


> To be honest, I do not think any user has ever asked them to push the TDP through the roof and make the cooling of the cards an extremely challenging adventure.
> 
> There is more illogical thinking in the management of AMD than proper pro-user attitude and attention to really what the user needs.
> 
> ...



Anything released post 2020 isn't really comparable to previous gpu launches the majority of cards from the current generations released into a market where msrp were basically meaningless and pretty much everything sold for at least 50% over MSRP with some cards closer to 100% for the majority of their lifespan.


----------



## Bitoshi (May 22, 2022)

PapaTaipei said:


> 4080 ti would be 500 euros or less if the market was not a cartel.



I'm not 100% sure my information is correct, but assuming the 4080 Ti uses cut-down AD102 dies and 20GB of 21 gbps ram it would likely cost more than that just to manufacture. 

I've heard the wafer cost alone could be up to $400 (custom TSMC N4 node, plus TSMC increased prices by 20% in 2021). Then add the cost of 20GB of 21 gbps memory (e.g. if it's $10 per GB, that's $200 alone), all the other components, and shipping costs (which have doubled since the pandemic started), etc. Nvidia also needs to recoup R&D costs for the chip and generate revenue for investor which adds to the price. Then AIB's need to add cooling solutions (which need to be beefier and use higher end parts due to insane power consumption) and pay for assembly, testing, packaging, and shipping to vendors. Then the vendor needs room for markup, etc. Record high inflation doesn't help either. 

The 4080 Ti would need to sell at over $500 just to break even. I think $800-$1000 would be a fair price, although I'm sure it will be more.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (May 22, 2022)

Bitoshi said:


> I'm not 100% sure my information is correct, but assuming the 4080 Ti uses cut-down AD102 dies and 20GB of 21 gbps ram it would likely cost more than that just to manufacture.
> 
> I've heard the wafer cost alone could be up to $400 (custom TSMC N4 node, plus TSMC increased prices by 20% in 2021). Then add the cost of 20GB of 21 gbps memory (e.g. if it's $10 per GB, that's $200 alone), all the other components, and shipping costs (which have doubled since the pandemic started), etc. Nvidia also needs to recoup R&D costs for the chip and generate revenue for investor which adds to the price. Then AIB's need to add cooling solutions (which need to be beefier and use higher end parts due to insane power consumption) and pay for assembly, testing, packaging, and shipping to vendors. Then the vendor needs room for markup, etc. Record high inflation doesn't help either.
> 
> The 4080 Ti would need to sell at over $500 just to break even. I think $800-$1000 would be a fair price, although I'm sure it will be more.



I think pricing will probably be similar to ampere $2000 for the 4090ti, $1500 for the 4090, $800 for the 4080, $600 for the 4070........ The slight bump to the lower tier covers the increase cost of the N4 node. I'm not sure we will get the ridiculous product segmentation we got with Ampere where from the 3080 to the 3090ti there are 5 cards all offering miniscule bumps from each other. Nvidia has always been pretty predictable minus Turing on pricing but N4 sound substantially more expensive than Samsung 8nm so who knows.

I think AMD going with what sounds like a chiplet based design should make their products cheaper to manufacture I doubt that will be passed on to the consumer and they will likely just match price tier for tier with Nvidia for example if the 7900XT beats the 4090ti at everything it will be priced identical if it loses at RT it will be cheaper etc.


----------



## ARF (May 22, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Anything released post 2020 isn't really comparable to previous gpu launches the majority of cards from the current generations released into a market where msrp were basically meaningless and pretty much everything sold for at least 50% over MSRP with some cards closer to 100% for the majority of their lifespan.



Except that a graphics card is only one component in a personal computer, and there are budget limitations for the buyers.
Unless you are willing to destroy the whole market for new PCs, you must respect the defined historical price lines.


----------



## Solaris17 (May 22, 2022)

ARF said:


> Unless you are willing to destroy the whole market for new PCs, you must respect the defined historical price lines.



I mean, people had to buy entire pre-builts to get even some GPUs so I would say that even that data is disproportionately pumped.


----------



## 80251 (May 22, 2022)

Solaris17 said:


> I mean, people had to buy entire pre-builts to get even some GPUs so I would say that even that data is disproportionately pumped.


That really says it all about how bad the GPU market has been lately. It's unprecedented in GPU history.


----------



## tussinman (May 23, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Anything released post 2020 isn't really comparable to previous gpu launches the majority of cards from the current generations released into a market where msrp were basically meaningless and pretty much everything sold for at least 50% over MSRP with some cards closer to 100% for the majority of their lifespan.


The card he listed though (6600) is pretty much exactly at his countrys MSRP and it's still only comparable to 2 different 2019 era cards in terms of performance to price


ARF said:


> Look at the Radeon RX 6600 - the cheapest model is priced 333 eur. The same performance and price as the old Radeon RX 5700 XT original MSRP in 2019 and RTX 2060 S back in 2019..
> 
> This is against progress and does not work for the market.
> 
> It is like the development was stopped and there is really nothing interesting happening.


It's not much better in the States. The 6600 MSRP is like $20 cheaper than my 3.5 year old RTX 2060 and it's only like 10% faster. 

3.5 years and we have $20 cheaper and 10-12% faster. No real incentive for those 2060/2070 era card owners to upgrade because like you said not alot is happening in most of the price brackets


----------



## R-T-B (May 23, 2022)

Metroid said:


> September 2022 to all the way to September 2024, you will find gpus at msrp without any issue, will be even lot cheaper than msrp second hand.


Gotta love that crystal ball you regularly pass off as fact.


----------



## mb194dc (May 23, 2022)

80251 said:


> That really says it all about how bad the GPU market has been lately. It's unprecedented in GPU history.



Lockdown was also unprecedented, when you're legally not allowed to go out, dropping big money on a GPU to game at home is much more justifiable.


----------



## 80251 (May 23, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Gotta love that crystal ball you regularly pass off as fact.


I wish he would use that crystal ball to give us some hot stock tips or maybe some winners at Santa Anita next week.


----------



## Lei (May 23, 2022)

I just want to mention that 3090 and 3080 shared the same GA102 size which was 628mm²
while 4090 and 4080 don't use the same chip. 4090 uses AD102 which is 611mm², but 4080 uses AD103 380mm² (40% smaller die size)



oxrufiioxo said:


> I think pricing will probably be similar to ampere .... $1500 for the 4090, $800 for the 4080,


----------



## Frick (May 23, 2022)

Frick said:


> Sometimes they did, but there have been lots of variation. The 8800 Ultra was more than $800 ($1100 today). Many cards on the highest end (the 6990, 7990, 590, 690, 780ti and so on) were $700+. The 980ti was the first top end (but not really top end as the Titans started to come up) product in a long while that was cheaper (before the price slash). At this point in time I'd say the $500 for the high end GPU cannot be considered normal.
> 
> And inflation is really important. $500 in 2010 is $662 now. GPU prices are way too high for sure, but there is no way in heck a high end GPU will ever be $500 ever again.
> 
> ...



So I'm very bored so I'm working on a more complete version of this. We'll see how it turns out.


----------



## Lei (May 29, 2022)

This time price decrease is about 3% based on my tracking.
Taiwan is being the second highest number of new covid cases in last 4 weeks, after USA. 
8% of Taiwan population got covid.


----------



## Lei (May 30, 2022)

Better than I expected, may be because usd/cny exchange rate went from 6.4 to 6.6
They also changed some of the numbers from previous reports. 
I'm also more inclined towards 3080 hence the 111% 





News des 28./29. Mai 2022 | 3DCenter.org

Ethereum:


----------



## Mac the Geek (May 30, 2022)

PapaTaipei said:


> 4080 ti would be 500 euros or less if the market was not a cartel.



It's not a cartel.  It's a market with an insanely high technological barrier to entry.  Intel is one of the biggest chipmakers on the planet, with multi-billion-dollar profits ever quarter; but for everything they're pouring into GPU development, they're still an insignificant presence in the discrete GPU market.  That leaves AMD (who still hasn't recouped its losses over the last decade) and Nvidia (who never saw a dollar it didn't like) both selling everything they make, and being content to ride market share and milk profits.

If we want to see GPU prices come down, we have to hope that Intel figures out how to catch up with Nvidia and AMD and force some price competition.


----------



## Chomiq (May 31, 2022)

> Changes to cryptocurrency standards and processes including, but not limited to, the pending Ethereum 2.0 standard may decrease the usage of GPUs for Ethereum mining as well as create increased aftermarket resales of our GPUs, impact retail prices for our GPUs, increase returns of our products in the distribution channel, and may reduce demand for our new GPUs. We have introduced Lite Hash Rate, or LHR, GeForce GPUs with limited Ethereum mining capability and provided CMP products in an effort to address demand from gamers and direct miners to CMP. Beginning in the second quarter of the fiscal year 2022, most desktop NVIDIA Ampere architecture GeForce GPU shipments were LHR in our effort to direct GeForce to gamers. Attempts in the aftermarket to improve the hash rate capabilities of our LHR cards have been successful and our gaming cards may become more attractive to miners, increasing demand for our gaming GPUs and limiting our ability to supply our gaming cards to non-mining customers. We cannot predict whether our strategy of using LHR cards and CMP will achieve our desired outcome.


----------



## MarsM4N (May 31, 2022)

Just found recently a word from the horses mouth (AMD Forums Moderator):

*GPU Scalper Bots Are Still Dominating AMD’s Online Store*

_"There was some hope that the AMD website’s anti-bot measures would help, but an image posted by a team of scalpers shows that not to be the case. If the screenshot is to be believed, one bot managed to purchase the majority of GPUs offered in AMD’s latest European drop. ... That’s one of the cards dropping weekly in limited numbers on AMD’s official store. Try as they might, regular unassisted humans buyers are still being outclassed by machines. Following the most recent European GPU drop, one Redditor posted a screenshot allegedly posted in a stock tracker Discord chat (as spotted by Tom’s Hardware). The image shows the purchase stats for the Vuurvlieg AMD Companion script, one of many bots designed to snap up video cards whenever they go on sale. The bot in this case was able to buy *214 of the 350 GPUs* that AMD allotted for the European market. It managed to buy almost every 6800 XT, of which there were only 50 available, and half of the 6700 XT units. These are just the numbers from *a single bot*. It’s possible no regular people managed to purchase cards — perhaps it was just *bot vs. bot*."_

So, unless supply will exeed demand, AMD/Nvidia starts shuffle sales or the GOV steps in availability will not get any better.  Sit it out or pay off the scalpers on eBay.


----------



## Chomiq (May 31, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Just found recently a word from the horses mouth (AMD Forums Moderator):
> 
> *GPU Scalper Bots Are Still Dominating AMD’s Online Store*
> 
> ...


It's an easy solution - don't buy from a scalper.


----------



## The red spirit (May 31, 2022)

Mac the Geek said:


> It's not a cartel.  It's a market with an insanely high technological barrier to entry.


That's not an argument that it's not a cartel. Way too many components for decades have been very similar at similar prices points. it wouldn't be surprising if ATi/AMD and nV were a cartel.



Mac the Geek said:


> Intel is one of the biggest chipmakers on the planet, with multi-billion-dollar profits ever quarter; but for everything they're pouring into GPU development, they're still an insignificant presence in the discrete GPU market.


They don't have anything discrete yet. But that's their problem. They have made so many prototypes and they seemingly function fine, some of them have reasonable performance too, but Intel just doesn't release anything discrete ever. They have been hyping up GPUs for like decade already and still refuse to release anything. No reasons were ever given why they don't do that. And no they aren't irrelevant either. Their iGPUs are the most used GPUs. They have won marketshare game a long time ago.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (May 31, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> _*214 of the 350 GPUs* that AMD allotted for the European market. _



350?  For all of Europe?  WTAF?


----------



## MarsM4N (May 31, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> 350?  For all of Europe?  WTAF?



Yep, for the weekly AMD drop. Back in February. That's 1.400/month, for whole Europe.  Pretty laughable.
But it doesn't include the cards distributed to resellers, which btw. get also snatched away by scalper bots.

Guy on reddit: _"They really "dropped" *300 cards total*? Are they placing the transistors by hand?"_


----------



## thesmokingman (May 31, 2022)

Why can't they have humans oversee this? How hard can it be to flag this as normal consumers need one, two, maybe three at the most? But 214 out 350 and no one notices until after the fact??


----------



## PapaTaipei (Jun 1, 2022)

Mac the Geek said:


> It's not a cartel.  It's a market with an insanely high technological barrier to entry.  Intel is one of the biggest chipmakers on the planet, with multi-billion-dollar profits ever quarter; but for everything they're pouring into GPU development, they're still an insignificant presence in the discrete GPU market.  That leaves AMD (who still hasn't recouped its losses over the last decade) and Nvidia (who never saw a dollar it didn't like) both selling everything they make, and being content to ride market share and milk profits.
> 
> If we want to see GPU prices come down, we have to hope that Intel figures out how to catch up with Nvidia and AMD and force some price competition.


You clearly believe what you wrote. Doesn't make it more realistic.


----------



## r9 (Jun 1, 2022)

PapaTaipei said:


> You clearly believe what you wrote. Doesn't make it more realistic.


It's demand and supply simple as that.
If people refused to pay anything above MSRP there wouldn't have been anything for amd/nvidia and the scalpers to milk but because people have more money that common sense happened what happened.


----------



## KLiKzg (Jun 1, 2022)

When? In 1~2 years, if things do not deteriorate or change significantly.


----------



## 80251 (Jun 1, 2022)

r9 said:


> It's demand and supply simple as that.
> If people refused to pay anything above MSRP there wouldn't have been anything for amd/nvidia and the scalpers to milk but because people have more money that common sense happened what happened.


But has scalping become an industry/business all to itself? It would seem so since it's possible to rent a bot to vacuum up videocards (among other things).


----------



## MarsM4N (Jun 1, 2022)

80251 said:


> But has scalping become an industry/business all to itself? It would seem so since it's possible to rent a bot to vacuum up videocards (among other things).



Yes, *scalping is a business*. As is everything you make profit from it.  Basically everything "limited" will be scalped from now on, like limited edition sneakers.

But the lower demand changed GPU scalping. Now the only profit is in scalping Founders Editions directly from AMD/Nvidia, since they are cheaper (more profit). Just check eBay.
*PC Graphics Card Scalping Has Died Off (For Now)*

If the resellers would lower their prices, their cards would again be scalped away, I guess.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 1, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Yes, *scalping is a business*. As is everything you make profit from it.  Basically everything "limited" will be scalped from now on, like limited edition sneakers.
> 
> But the lower demand changed GPU scalping. Now the only profit is in scalping Founders Editions directly from AMD/Nvidia, since they are cheaper (more profit). Just check eBay.
> *PC Graphics Card Scalping Has Died Off (For Now)*
> ...



So....I don't agree.  It's based on a pedantic reason, but the two things are entirely different.

Let me suggest it this way.  There are currently brands that make nothing.  They take their label, slap it on a box from a manufacturer, and sell it at a higher price.  The next item off of the production line is indistinguishable, labelled with a more generic name, and goes to the same exact stores with a 20-30% price decrease (if only that).  That said, these middlemen are not viewed as scalpers...


The business model that you are looking for is non-value added intermediary sales.  That's a business model where trivial differences equate to large price differences.  Scalping is a process by which people buy a retail good, introduce a large fee, and sell to another consumer due to shortages in supply.


The fun bit here is that people don't seem to understand a lot of things.  Step one is to manufacture an EUV machine...and only one company does that.  That 250k or much more expensive machine is then sent to a factory.  The factory purifies silicon wafers, manufactures them into chips with the EUV machine, and then packages them for further assembly.  Once the chips are manufactured, you've got an entirely different stream for components.  Chip + component + assembly = finished good.  Literally anything from a delay in the EUV hardware, to any step of the component manufacturing and sourcing, can cause critical shortages...and people make it their business to utilize this disconnect between supply and demand to their advantage.



As to the point of scalping being a business model...it isn't.  It's only a financial option with large amounts of capital and severe market imbalance.  That said, all markets adjust.  I don't see current GPU prices going down until there's a glut of some component...and AMD/Nvidia decide to try and steal market share from one another.  Thing is, they've both realized that's bad for profitability.  As long as they maintain rough costing bands at MSRP, they have a license to print money.  Making it better for consumers, by competing, is unlikely to ever be half as profitable as the status quo.  That said, it's not like the ARC GPUs are going to disrupt this....sigh....


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 9, 2022)

As the market slowly drifts in the general direction of sanity, we still have stuff like this:










Less than half the performance.  Half the VRAM.  The mind, it boggles.  Some AMD fans may have a bit of a persecution complex, but it's sometimes not hard to understand why.

Full disclosure:  You _can_ get a 1650 for around USD200 (or less with rebate) as of this post at Micro Center (where that snip came from), but the economics don't work out even then.


----------



## Blaeza (Jun 9, 2022)

If I could get a rx6600 for £300, I'd have one by now.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Jun 9, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> As the market slowly drifts in the general direction of sanity, we still have stuff like this:
> 
> View attachment 250436
> 
> ...



Nvidia just has more mind share... A buddy of mine almost grabbed  a RTX 3050 for $329 over a 6600XT for like 20 bucks more.


----------



## 80251 (Jun 9, 2022)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> As to the point of scalping being a business model...it isn't.  It's only a financial option with large amounts of capital and severe market imbalance.  That said, all markets adjust.  I don't see current GPU prices going down until there's a glut of some component...and AMD/Nvidia decide to try and steal market share from one another.  Thing is, they've both realized that's bad for profitability.  As long as they maintain rough costing bands at MSRP, they have a license to print money.  Making it better for consumers, by competing, is unlikely to ever be half as profitable as the status quo.  That said, it's not like the ARC GPUs are going to disrupt this....sigh....


Scalping has their own software and their own websites allowing the rental of their software bots as a SERVICE. If that's not a business model what is?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 10, 2022)

JKRsega said:


> If I could get a rx6600 for £300, I'd have one by now.



Should 6600s get down to USD250, it'll be reeeal tempting to sell my 3050 to snag one.  Assuming people are still paying too much for used Nvidia cards at that point.


----------



## Jetster (Jun 10, 2022)

Prices are almost back to normal less the inflation. But there are still crazy prices all over the net. So, you have to really look at what you're buying

XFX Speedster SWFT 210 Radeon RX 6600 CORE Gaming Graphics Card with 8GB GDDR6 HDMI 3xDP, AMD RDNA 2 RX-66XL8LFDQ : Electronics (amazon.com)

Amazon.com: ASUS TUF Gaming NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 OC Edition Graphics Card (PCIe 3.0, 4GB GDDR6 Memory, HDMI, DisplayPort, DVI-D, 1x 6-pin Power Connector, IP5X Dust Resistance, Space-Grade Lubricant) : Everything Else


----------



## tussinman (Jun 10, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> As the market slowly drifts in the general direction of sanity, we still have stuff like this:
> 
> View attachment 250436
> 
> ...


Yeah nvidia still has a couple tiers that are still way overpriced. My local microcenter still has the cheapest rtx 3050 at $329 with most of them being $350 or higher. 

That's a joke, it's like 8% faster than a 2016 era GTX 1070. No amount of fanboyism would make me pay those prices 


80-watt Hamster said:


> Should 6600s get down to USD250, it'll be reeeal tempting to sell my 3050 to snag one.  Assuming people are still paying too much for used Nvidia cards at that point.


Saw it for the very first time ever yesterday. They had a complete open box 6600 model for $240. 

Really good deal,  RTX 2070/3060 level performance for sub $250 is no joke.



oxrufiioxo said:


> Nvidia just has more mind share... *A buddy of mine almost grabbed  a RTX 3050 for $329 over a 6600XT for like 20 bucks more.*


Funny you mentioned that, 2 weeks ago I had a former co-worker (who has been rocking an old GTX 1060 throughout covid) text me and the text literally said word for word "at microcenter now, RTX 3060 for $480 or 6700XT for $500 ?". 

I almost spit out my drink when I read it


----------



## Lei (Jun 10, 2022)

Jetster said:


> Prices are almost back to normal less the inflation.


Two year old product.... at msrp is not normal



tussinman said:


> Funny you mentioned that, 2 weeks ago I had a former co-worker (who has been rocking an old GTX 1060 throughout covid) text me and the text literally said word for word "at microcenter now, RTX 3060 for $480 or 6700XT for $500 ?".
> 
> I almost spit out my drink when I read it


I can get a second hand 3090 around 1060 bucks. And mined are 900$


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 10, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> As the market slowly drifts in the general direction of sanity, we still have stuff like this:
> 
> View attachment 250436
> 
> ...


It's because both the 1060 and 1650 were incredibly popular in esports.  People are buying them without even knowing why anymore.



Lei said:


> Two year old product.... at msrp is not normal


Considering inflation it pretty much is.


----------



## BSim500 (Jun 10, 2022)

tussinman said:


> Yeah nvidia still has a couple tiers that are still way overpriced. My local microcenter still has the cheapest rtx 3050 at $329 with most of them being $350 or higher.
> 
> That's a joke, it's like 8% faster than a 2016 era GTX 1070. No amount of fanboyism would make me pay those prices


I was in the market for a lower end card recently (mostly older AAA's & Indie's, so 6GB VRAM enough). RTX 3050's are like £290-£350 in the UK. Ended up buying a used (non-mining) GTX 1660 Super from a friend for £149. Between nVidia's _"what does 'budget' mean?"_ vs AMD's 64-bit x8 bus crippled offerings, I desperately miss the old days when we had several players in the market and _"our one and only competitor isn't trying so neither will we"_ wasn't a thing.


----------



## Lei (Jun 11, 2022)

BSim500 said:


> I was in the market for a lower end card recently (mostly older AAA's & Indie's, so 6GB VRAM enough). RTX 3050's are like £290-£350 in the UK. Ended up buying a used (non-mining) GTX 1660 Super from a friend for £149. Between nVidia's _"what does 'budget' mean?"_ vs AMD's 64-bit x8 bus crippled offerings, I desperately miss the old days when we had several players in the market and _"our one and only competitor isn't trying so neither will we"_ wasn't a thing.


I got a 1070 when my 670 died last August. But I refunded the next day and ordered 1070 from the same seller. 1070 is the oldest first model with 8gb vram.

Ok, I understand it was ur friend


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

Prices going down:




AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen




> We've been watching GPU prices fall since the start of the year, but the past few weeks suggest things could get a _lot_ worse — for the graphics card manufacturers and GPU vendors, that is — in the near future.
> 
> GPU prices dropped 15% in May, and we've seen similar 10–15% drops each month for the past several months. We saw the best graphics cards come back into stock (at retail) as GPU mining profitability has plummeted — and that was before Bitcoin and Ethereum crashed again, dropping Bitcoin from around $30,000 to the low $20,000s and Ethereum from around $1,900 to about $1,100. In the past week, Bitcoin's value dropped over 30%, while Ethereum plunged by more than 40%.


Below MSRP and Only Getting Cheaper: The GPU Deluge Begins | Tom's Hardware (tomshardware.com)


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Jun 16, 2022)

It's a nice trend, but prices are still too high. The "MSRP"s were already too high. I hope it crashes through the floor. The margins they have been raking in off of these cards is absurd.


----------



## Lei (Jun 16, 2022)

Some say when Ethereum is gone, miners can choose other coins and then convert it to ether....
I mean if Ethereum profitability is going down and miners are selling their GPU, couldn't they just mine Monero and convert it to bitcoin or ether 


is this really the end of mining? 

@R-T-B @Valantar @Vayra86


----------



## Valantar (Jun 16, 2022)

Lei said:


> Some say when Ethereum is gone, miners can choose other coins and then convert it to ether....
> I mean if Ethereum profitability is going down and miners are selling their GPU, couldn't they just mine Monero and convert it to bitcoin or ether View attachment 251262
> is this really the end of mining?
> 
> @R-T-B @Valantar @Vayra86


They absolutely could. The only thing stopping this is the willingness of people holding Ethereum or Bitcoin to exchange it for these other coins, plus possibly various technicalities in the rules of exchanges or the workings of various coins - but that tends to be more of a "this gets a bit complicated" type of problem rather than a "this isn't happening" problem. And, of course, simplifying these processes is exactly what coin exchanges exist to do. So, yes, they absolutely could. Once again this all just comes down to whether the people with money and assets are feeling confident enough to exchange those assets for potentially riskier/more volatile assets - i.e. this is all just a massive gambling ring. (Not that stock markets as they currently work are all that different from this, mind you.) But as in all economic downturns, a lot of people lose confidence in these things and thus won't buy or sell any more. And if the miners can't sell those altcoins, then they're worthless.


----------



## mb194dc (Jun 16, 2022)

Re thread title it'll be soon... The massive caveat is that the economy will also probably be in pretty bad shape so still not easy for at lot of people to buy even with much lower prices. 

More interesting is the price point the next gen launches at?


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

AMD's pricing for the Radeons makes no sense whatsoever.




AMD RX 6800 XT 16GB | NiceHash




NVIDIA RTX 3060 Ti | NiceHash

RTX 3060 Ti costs only 500 euros and is more profitable mining solution than the 795 euros RX 6800 XT. 
KFA² GeForce RTX 3060 Ti ab 499,99 € | Preisvergleich bei idealo.de


----------



## ppn (Jun 16, 2022)

AMD's pricing is related to NVidia's pricing, no longer to ETH and for the most recent events where ETH dropped 1600 to 1000 Euro in a week, you have to give it some time to have the desired effect. all GPU prices have to drop by 40%, as of now. But generally it's a cartel. AMD is a little cheaper. but NVidia doesn't seem to care. Well forget it you'll never be able to make sense of it.


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

ppn said:


> AMD is a little cheaper.



No, it is not.




NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen




NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen

RTX 3080 is cheaper.


----------



## 64K (Jun 16, 2022)

It's going to take a little while longer for prices to drop to MSRP. From what I understand retailers buy at a set price from distributors to have stock on hand. They won't lower the price below what they previously paid for the stock if at all possible.


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

64K said:


> It's going to take a little while longer for prices to drop to MSRP. From what I understand retailers buy at a set price from distributors to have stock on hand. They won't lower the price below what they previously paid for the stock if at all possible.



I have heard this explanation all the time. But it shouldn't work like that. The retailers should transfer some percentage of the money got for the cards only *after* the purchase is executed, not before that, because it obviously doesn't take the current (at the time of the final purchase) market situation into account.


----------



## 64K (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> I have heard this explanation all the time. But it shouldn't work like that. The retailers should transfer some percentage of the money got for the cards only *after* the purchase is executed, not before that, because it obviously doesn't take the current (at the time of the final purchase) market situation into account.



Even if it worked that way the end result would be the same. The distributors pay a set price to card manufacturers for stock so they won't distribute cards for less than they paid for them either unless they absolutely have to. The bottom line is the distributors and retailers have to at least try to make a profit moving inventory or they can't stay in business for long.


----------



## The red spirit (Jun 16, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> As the market slowly drifts in the general direction of sanity, we still have stuff like this:
> 
> View attachment 250436
> 
> ...


That Asus card only has sunflower heatsink and 2 fans. I almost forgot that Asus used to make shite liek this.


----------



## r9 (Jun 16, 2022)

Personally when 3060ti/3070 got announced looking at the perf that was advertised and the msrp I was looking to buy used 1080ti for $200 which seemed like a reasonable price compared to 3060ti for $400 however the shortage hit and people went nuts with their asking price.
So I waited and waited and finally found used 6700xt for $450 which is not the best deal I got ever but I feel it's reasonable price.
But other than that Microcenter near me regularly has offerings and nice openbox deals.
This one is not open box and still good price.




The other day they had 6900xt for $800.


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

64K said:


> Even if it worked that way the end result would be the same. The distributors pay a set price to card manufacturers for stock so they won't distribute cards for less than they paid for them either unless they absolutely have to. The bottom line is the distributors and retailers have to at least try to make a profit moving inventory or they can't stay in business for long.



We can buy direct from AMD store, cheaper than from the retailers - 549 vs 605 euros:

Where to Buy AMD Radeon™ RX 6000 Series Graphics | AMD








AMD Radeon RX 6750 XT Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 16, 2022)

Lei said:


> Some say when Ethereum is gone, miners can choose other coins and then convert it to ether....
> I mean if Ethereum profitability is going down and miners are selling their GPU, couldn't they just mine Monero and convert it to bitcoin or ether View attachment 251262
> is this really the end of mining?
> 
> @R-T-B @Valantar @Vayra86


Depends on a few dozen big things. Its really hard to tell, all you can say is the market is very volatile and there is one certainty: everything suffers from inflation. These fun coins take big hits at that point, when you have to choose between running your shitty GPUs all day or eating something for dinner. The price of energy is quickly going to overtake the profitability if this continues.


----------



## tussinman (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> No, it is not


In the USA (which is where majority of this forum lives) the AMD cards are alot cheaper overall so i'm not surprised someone made that claim.

RX 6600 is almost 100 dollars cheaper then the 3060 non-ti and the 6600 actually has 3 models that are cheaper than the cheapest 3050 which is an absolute joke. 6600XT is about $50-70 cheaper than the 3060 non-ti.  6700 is anywhere from $50-120 cheaper than both the 3060ti and 3070.

Even with the most recent aggresssive RTX 3080 price drops the 6800XT can still be found for $50-70 cheaper.


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

tussinman said:


> In the USA (which is where majority of this forum lives) the AMD cards are alot cheaper overall so i'm not surprised someone made that claim.
> 
> RX 6600 is almost 100 dollars cheaper then the 3060 non-ti and the 6600 actually has 3 models that are cheaper than the cheapest 3050 which is an absolute joke. 6600XT is about $50-70 cheaper than the 3060 non-ti.  6700 is anywhere from $50-120 cheaper than both the 3060ti and 3070.
> 
> Even with the most recent aggresssive RTX 3080 price drops the 6800XT can still be found for $50-70 cheaper.



No, it is easy to check.





radeon rx 6800 xt | Newegg.com




rtx 3080 | Newegg.com

More or less the same price.
The cheapest RX 6800 XT in the list was discounted from 919$.


----------



## Sithaer (Jun 16, 2022)

tussinman said:


> In the USA (which is where majority of this forum lives) the AMD cards are alot cheaper overall so i'm not surprised someone made that claim.
> 
> RX 6600 is almost 100 dollars cheaper then the 3060 non-ti and the 6600 actually has 3 models that are cheaper than the cheapest 3050 which is an absolute joke. 6600XT is about $50-70 cheaper than the 3060 non-ti.  6700 is anywhere from $50-120 cheaper than both the 3060ti and 3070.
> 
> Even with the most recent aggresssive RTX 3080 price drops the 6800XT can still be found for $50-70 cheaper.



Even in my country with our shitty 27% VAT + greedy prices they are either equal or cheaper on the AMD side for ~equal or better performance.
RTX 3050 is a wee bit cheaper than the cheapest 6600 and the 6600 XT is cheaper than the 3060 or the same.

Crappiest 3060 Ti is more expensive than a RX 6700 XT Red Devil and its like that even higher up the list.


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> The cheapest RX 6800 XT in the list was discounted from 919$.



6800xt are bad values right now. 6900xt and 6950xt seem to be available in far higher quantities.

6750xt is almost as good as 6800xt as well, if you're willing to get a slightly inferior card.

---------

I personally like the 6800xt in theory with 16GBs, full sized RDNA infinity cache. It has fewer compute units than 6900xt or 6950xt, but maybe yields have improved? So AMD just doesn't have much reason to sell the cut-down dies as 6800xt


----------



## tussinman (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> More or less the same price.


No you intentionally cherry picked the 1 example that was close. That doesn't mean AMD cards aren't cheaper

The 6600 being cheaper than the 3050 and $100 less than the 3060, the 6600XT being $50+ cheaper than the 3060, the 6700 being $100+ cheaper than the 3070 is NOT the definition of "more or less the same price"


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 16, 2022)

Lei said:


> Some say when Ethereum is gone, miners can choose other coins and then convert it to ether....
> I mean if Ethereum profitability is going down and miners are selling their GPU, couldn't they just mine Monero and convert it to bitcoin or ether View attachment 251262
> is this really the end of mining?
> 
> @R-T-B @Valantar @Vayra86


Conversion rates would suck at that, but it's certainly possible if your desperate.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> I have heard this explanation all the time. But it shouldn't work like that. The retailers should transfer some percentage of the money got for the cards only *after* the purchase is executed, not before that, because it obviously doesn't take the current (at the time of the final purchase) market situation into account.


No distributor in the world would agree to that. I mean, the proposition is ludicrous on its face. "How about instead of me paying you the full price now, I pay you a percentage now, and a percentage at some undefined future date when I manage to sell the product on to a customer?" Distributors do not give out zero-interest loans with no fixed payback date. Very, very few entities do so in general.



ARF said:


> AMD's pricing for the Radeons makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> View attachment 251264
> AMD RX 6800 XT 16GB | NiceHash
> ...


Almost as if ... oh, I don't know, _GPU MSRPs aren't set based on their NiceHash return rate_? Who'd'a thunk it?


ARF said:


> We can buy direct from AMD store, cheaper than from the retailers - 549 vs 605 euros:
> 
> Where to Buy AMD Radeon™ RX 6000 Series Graphics | AMD
> 
> ...


That's because AMD is doing direct sales and isn't dependent on distributors in the same way retailers are. Retailers are generally relatively small businesses with tight margins and can't afford to take on significant losses clearing out stock - though at some point having the cash bound up in unsold stock does become more expensive than just taking the loss. But that takes months, possibly years.


ARF said:


> No, it is easy to check.
> 
> View attachment 251281
> radeon rx 6800 xt | Newegg.com
> ...


You're very focused on the 6800 XT, which is among the worst value and least price competitive AMD GPUs in recent months (mainly due to most Navi 21 stock seemingly going to 6900 XT/6950 XTs instead). Maybe compare the 6600, 6600 XT or 6900 XT to their equivalent Nvidia cards?


----------



## ARF (Jun 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> No distributor in the world would agree to that. I mean, the proposition is ludicrous on its face. "How about instead of me paying you the full price now, I pay you a percentage now, and a percentage at some undefined future date when I manage to sell the product on to a customer?" Distributors do not give out zero-interest loans with no fixed payback date. Very, very few entities do so in general.



You don't need distributors, to begin with. The less mid steps between the plant and the end user - the better for everyone.
Kill the distributors / don't ask them anything.


The AMD cards are slower in general - slower ray-tracing when needed, slower mining, not available DLSS if someone'd be interested in, etc.


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## Valantar (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> You don't need distributors, to begin with. The less mid steps between the plant and the end user - the better for everyone.
> Kill the distributors / don't ask them anything.


Yeah, good luck buying products directly from manufacturers in most parts of the world. You don't seem to have much of an understanding of how the retail value chain works. A couple of questions:
- Do you believe manufacturers generally have their own distribution networks that aren't reliant on third parties?
- Do you believe all (or even most) retailers have the resources to coordinate importing their own products from overseas, including the major legal requirements surrounding this?
- Do you believe all or most retailers have the cash available to pay for pricey PC components several months ahead, and can afford the outlay while the product is shipped to them from the factory warehouse?
- Do you have any understanding of the type of scale required to make self-importing GPUs directly from the manufacturer economically viable, or the work required to make this happen?

Distributors can absolutely be massive assholes, and they also need margins for their business to not go under, but they fill a fundamentally necessary function in the distribution of goods produced on the other side of the globe. "Sidestepping distributors and going directly to the manufacturer" is an overused marketing trope typically used by major actors ordering low-cost goods directly from a manufacturer, and in the tech world that is essentially limited to store-brand peripherals and the like. The US is an exception, as many manufacturers do direct sales there, both due to being based there and due to the massive size of the US market (and the relatively low legal/distribution effort required for importing to a single country with a single language and mostly a single set of laws (there are lots of state laws, but few that are relevant to this)).


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> You don't need distributors, to begin with. The less mid steps between the plant and the end user - the better for everyone.
> Kill the distributors / don't ask them anything.
> 
> 
> The AMD cards are slower in general - slower ray-tracing when needed, slower mining, not available DLSS if someone'd be interested in, etc.


I think you might want to rethink your last statement, if companies delivered directly they could also choose who gets what.
I would be surprised if Intel shipped to me at this point, that would be a shi##3r, I definitely Want a Arc card.


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## dragontamer5788 (Jun 16, 2022)

ARF said:


> You don't need distributors, to begin with. The less mid steps between the plant and the end user - the better for everyone.
> Kill the distributors / don't ask them anything.



Retailers: Work with customers directly. Handles thefts, returns, warranties, other such customer-facing problems.

Factories: Creates lots and lots of product. Only ships entire pallets of product at a time, nothing smaller. 

Wholesaler / Distributor: Breaks bulk. Cracks open pallets into smaller packages, so that end-retailers don't have to deal with as much product at a time. Handles last-mile logistics / short haul trucking (as opposed to the long-haul shipping and/or rail).

Different jobs, each managing an important part of the supply chain. People like Amazon / Walmart try to merge Retail / Wholesale into a singular company, but in practice, Walmart still has retail outlets and separate warehouses.

In effect: Walmart simply is an entity that has "in-housed" the wholesale portion of the supply chain.


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## Valantar (Jun 16, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> Retailers: Work with customers directly. Handles thefts, returns, warranties, other such customer-facing problems.
> 
> Factories: Creates lots and lots of product. Only ships entire pallets of product at a time, nothing smaller.
> 
> ...


Yep, as has a collection of others across various market segments and geographic areas. In the Nordics, the largest PC-focused electronics etailer (Komplett) built their now near three-decade dominant market position by starting a distribution business in parallel with their etail business (at the time it was named Norek, it has since renamed to Itegra, though the registered company name in public business registries is still Komplett Distribusjon AS, literally "Komplett Distribution" in Norwegian (AS is roughly the Norwegian equivalent of the US LLC)). This essentially gave them a double leg up - they got preferential pricing from their distributor arm, and also served as a key partner for most electronics companies wanting to sell goods in first Norway, then the Nordics, serving as a major distributor to every other retailer as well. Wherever you bought your PC components from, Komplett got a cut, with relatively minor exceptions. But running those two as separate businesses is the only reason this worked as well for them as it did (and it is of course an open question whether their close cooperation was anticompetitive or not). Combining the two into one unit wouldn't have been the same, and would have made the whole undertaking a lot more difficult.


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## Lei (Jun 17, 2022)

I see this guy is selling 3090 with active backplate cooler for 1050$
He was using Laird thermal pads and max temp was 68

He bought the card 2000$ himself + waterblock 110$

He's been sandwich watercooling it


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## Bomby569 (Jun 17, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Yeah, good luck buying products directly from manufacturers in most parts of the world. You don't seem to have much of an understanding of how the retail value chain works. A couple of questions:
> - Do you believe manufacturers generally have their own distribution networks that aren't reliant on third parties?
> - Do you believe all (or even most) retailers have the resources to coordinate importing their own products from overseas, including the major legal requirements surrounding this?
> - Do you believe all or most retailers have the cash available to pay for pricey PC components several months ahead, and can afford the outlay while the product is shipped to them from the factory warehouse?
> ...



i do agree with all point being made here. Warranties, etc.. All valid points.
But Tesla disrupted a old market and sure things aren't wonderfull, there is issues with the model, but it works.

A lot of times (and this is especially true in smaller countries like mine, may be different in something like the US) distribution of PC parts (and other specialized products) are in the hands of some obscure company that only creates problems for everyone, consumers and brand. In the gpu crisis this was even more clear, prices were even higher because of this exclusive distribution agents or whatever they are called.

In a market completely outside of tech i bought a product with a problem, the seller was 5 stars, the brand was 5 stars, all the problems came from the middle man, the exclusive distributor in my country. This is very common in my experience.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> i do agree with all point being made here. Warranties, etc.. All valid points.
> But Tesla disrupted a old market and sure things aren't wonderfull, there is issues with the model, but it works.
> 
> A lot of times (and this is especially true in smaller countries like mine, may be different in something like the US) distribution of PC parts (and other specialized products) are in the hands of some obscure company that only creates problems for everyone, consumers and brand. In the gpu crisis this was even more clear, prices were even higher because of this exclusive distribution agents or whatever they are called.
> ...


A Tesla is way way more expensive than any CPU part, the markup is not comparable to consumers pc part, so I don't think it would work the same.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> A Tesla is way way more expensive than any CPU part, the markup is not comparable to consumers pc part, so I don't think it would work the same.



I bough a EVGA card directly from EVGA. And it was a 350$ part.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> I bough a EVGA card directly from EVGA. And it was a 350$ part.


Wow expensive now what's a Tesla cost.

Can you buy a Tesla in most countries etc etc.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> A Tesla is way way more expensive than any CPU part, the markup is not comparable to consumers pc part, so I don't think it would work the same.





TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Wow expensive now what's a Tesla cost.



Pic a lane. You said it only worked for teslas because they were expensive, not for pc parts. I gave an example of a cheap pc part, now you complain it's not expensive. I'm really confused now.


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## R0H1T (Jun 17, 2022)

ARF said:


> More or less the same price.


You're obviously biased, look at the overpriced $829 MSI card against the oh so fairly priced $769 Gigabyte's deal of the decade


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Pic a lane. You said it only worked for teslas because they were expensive, not for pc parts. I gave an example of a cheap pc part, now you complain it's not expensive. I'm really confused now.


No you missed my point ( my fault), you might be able to get one but it is not a global perspective, evga are unlikely to match Tesla in direct  shipping to different countries, it's worth it for Tesla, not so for every pc component maker.

My price relative point was no pc part has enough markup to allow for a decent spread of RMA centers , offices etc where's Tesla's markup allows more.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> No you missed my point ( my fault), you might be able to get one but it is not a global perspective, evga are unlikely to match Tesla in direct  shipping to different countries, it's worth it for Tesla, not so for every pc component maker.
> 
> My price relative point was no pc part has enough markup to allow for a decent spread of RMA centers , offices etc where's Tesla's markup allows more.



Sure, like i said not even Tesla managed to do it perfectly. But i do agree the user that said we really should find a solution to cut out the middle man. They take their cut and most of the times they are the more a source of trouble then customer satisfaction.
In the Tesla example anyone that dealt with car dealerships (new) knows how bad they usually are, and expensive.


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## Valantar (Jun 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Sure, like i said not even Tesla managed to do it perfectly. But i do agree the user that said we really should find a solution to cut out the middle man. They take their cut and most of the times they are the more a source of trouble then customer satisfaction.
> In the Tesla example anyone that dealt with car dealerships (news) knows i bad they usually are, and expensive.


The thing is, Tesla was about as well positioned to "disrupt" (god, how I hate that nonsensical buzzword) this system - and they still screwed it up. Their customer service is reportedly terrible, their delivery times are no shorter than those of others, and their cars aren't meaningfully cheaper than competitors. So, what's the effect of this? More profits to Tesla. I don't see that as a net benefit, sorry.

As to their advantages: they're massively cash rich, backed by a billionaire notoriously willing to spend his cash on risky ideas (and take the losses that often come from this), they've been working on vertical integration from the get-go, producing most of their components themselves (including various ICs) that other carmakers rely on third parties to make - which again lets Tesla in-house their service and support infrastructure, as they're not dependent on service personnell being trained by third parties. They're also selling high priced, low volume, high profit margin products, which are relatively easy to transport (in part because they can move on their own and are large enough to not require much additional packaging or other things making transport complicated, and there is an abundance of infrastructure already built up around transporting that type of product around the world).

And yet, they're barely managing to do an okay job. What this tells us is that for anyone without their advantages, such an undertaking would be essentially impossible. The only option then would be direct sales shipped from either a single centralized warehouse, or, if volumes allow, from a low number of regional warehouses. National level distribution and support would be impossible; retail would be impossible (if run on their own) or very complicated (if selling to other retailers, as supply deals would need to be negotiated with each). Of course, companies could band together to form some sort of organization or corporation that would do all of this work for them ... but that's a distributor. They already exist. And as they are for-profit entities, they extract profits from their work. I guess you could pitch the idea of starting a cooperatively run not-for-profit distribution company to various large tech companies, but I sincerely doubt they'd be willing to bankroll the costs of starting such an endeavor.

So, until the structures of global capitalism change fundamentally, this is a way of doing things that will not go away - unless you also want access to these goods to go away. Heck, it's even quite common for companies to just not sell their products in large parts of the world because they don't have a distribution network there - like Hynix SSDs in Europe. This tells us something about just how complicated that is, if you're willing to give up access to _massive_ markets entirely just because you don't have distribution in place already.


@ARF Feel free to bring up any counterarguments you might have to what is being said here. I'd love to hear them. Those laughing reactions are a rather weak response


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Sure, like i said not even Tesla managed to do it perfectly. But i do agree the user that said we really should find a solution to cut out the middle man. They take their cut and most of the times they are the more a source of trouble then customer satisfaction.
> In the Tesla example anyone that dealt with car dealerships (new) knows how bad they usually are, and expensive.


So why are you suggesting Tesla showed the way.
I'm in the UK and The shortage wasn't just in your small(you say) country, it was everywhere, and for everyone, so no, getting rid of the middle man would do f all good, shit Nvidia sold so much direct to miner's it caused them a liable case in court.

You think Nvidia would ship 100000 cards to 100,000 different people all over the world or just one shipment to Dave the crypto miner?!.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 17, 2022)

@Valantar
i see you know this stuff, mind you that for my part i didn't mean eliminate the retail, just the Wholesaler / Distributor



TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> So why are you suggesting Tesla showed the way.
> I'm in the UK and The shortage wasn't just in your small(you say) country, it was everywhere, and for everyone, so no, getting rid of the middle man would do f all good, shit Nvidia sold so much direct to miner's it caused them a liable case in court.
> 
> You think Nvidia would ship 100000 cards to 100,000 different people all over the world or just one shipment to Dave the crypto miner?!.



there is really no incentive in the long term for Nvidia to give them all their GPU's to miners, they know they will eventually go away, even if crypto was a sucess. Proof of stake and all that.
I also don't see them as more or less greedy then Wholesalers, they diverted large quantities of gpu's to miners, i know this for a fact from a store owner.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> @Valantar
> i see you know this stuff, mind you that for my part i didn't mean eliminate the retail, just the Wholesaler / Distributor
> 
> 
> ...


Greed , I wasn't arsed with that it's logistics and cost that limits Nvidias world wide shipping and costs.
Why ship to many when you get more cash shipping to few?!.
Stores mostly sorted small scale miner's for the same reason , Nvidia sorted the industrial scale miner's, we got what was left at high prices.


Let the past die already, kill it if you have to.

Because interest rates, technical progress and the future APUs mean it's never going back to normal.


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## tussinman (Jun 17, 2022)

Valantar said:


> @ARF Feel free to bring up any counterarguments you might have to what is being said here. I'd love to hear them. Those laughing reactions are a rather weak response


Yeah I love how I put in the US the 6600 is cheaper than both the 3060 and 3050, 6600xt is cheaper than the 3060, and the 6700 is signficantly cheaper than 3060ti/3070 and all we get is some childish laughing emoji ?

It's like I'm glad that inflated MSRPs during record inflation is funny ? (my local microcenter has 25+ 3060s in stock because they bought them from nvidia back when they could get $400+ for them now there stuck with them. Either sit on the shelves and eat the entire cost or slashes them to where they lose some money but not all of it).


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 17, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> It's an easy solution - don't buy from a scalper.


There is 1 on here and none have taken the carrot.



80-watt Hamster said:


> As the market slowly drifts in the general direction of sanity, we still have stuff like this:
> 
> View attachment 250436
> 
> ...


Yup at that rate better off grabbing a 6500XT lol


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## dragontamer5788 (Jun 17, 2022)

tussinman said:


> It's like I'm glad that inflated MSRPs during record inflation is funny ? (my local microcenter has 25+ 3060s in stock because they bought them from nvidia back when they could get $400+ for them now there stuck with them. Either sit on the shelves and eat the entire cost or slashes them to where they lose some money but not all of it).



Standard inventory management issues. If it sits on the shelves too long, expect some sales to kick in.

With Ethereum moving to proof of stake (eventually), along with the sudden decrease in cryptocoin prices, miners have begun to sell off their used GPUs everywhere. I'm seeing lots of stuff hit ebay or Reddit's /r/HardwareSwap right now. (Like people selling 8+ GPUs at a time, suggesting former miners).

I might pickup a cheap used GPU myself. I don't think the cryptocoin market has really crashed as far down as it could go quite yet, so I think I'm willing to wait another couple of weeks to see if it gets worse (and if more used prices come out with even lower prices).


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 17, 2022)

I may grab some 6400s/6500s for use as a backup card in uefi systems, i may have to get some older units for csm systems


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## kapone32 (Jun 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Greed , I wasn't arsed with that it's logistics and cost that limits Nvidias world wide shipping and costs.
> Why ship to many when you get more cash shipping to few?!.
> Stores mostly sorted small scale miner's for the same reason , Nvidia sorted the industrial scale miner's, we got what was left at high prices.
> 
> ...


This: The most excited thing I am looking forward to is the next APU with RDNA2 Graphics as the 6500XT die size has convinced me that AMD is onto something. I will give some love to Intel as well as their GPU technology is coming along as well.


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## ARF (Jun 18, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> 6800xt are bad values right now. 6900xt and 6950xt seem to be available in far higher quantities.
> 
> 6750xt is almost as good as 6800xt as well, if you're willing to get a slightly inferior card.



The 6750 XT is a disgusting card.

It is already that the flagship RTX 3090 Ti is 70% faster, when by the end of this year we get the new generation, that card will fall to entry-level performance tier.

We expect that the new RTX 4090 will be 100% faster than the old RTX 3090 Ti.
This means that RX 6750 XT will be around 30% of the performance of the RTX 4090.


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## Lei (Jun 18, 2022)

I think it's better you don't buy GPU from official retailers. if you want a GPU, find a good used one or wait for ada. 

point is: don't let nVidia make money from it Ampere series anymore (even if they go below msrp). stuck them with their unsold unboxed stock of 30-series.
This way they can't raise msrp for 40-series.

To sum up: don't buy new ampere, get used ampere or wait for ada. we're only going to directly pay to nVidia for ada (so they have to be fair)


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## Cvrk (Jun 18, 2022)

*never *is the answer.
as an example, I am in a nonexistent country. back in the good days when prices and stocks were "regular" we only got a few cards and prices were 10-15% higher than normal, from what a person in Canada would get. 
If the people from hr 1st place countries would have enough than the leftovers would come to us at a high price. the poor will always pay more, never less. 

now with this situation, a country like Canada will never ever have enough. There will always be demand. So the leftovers will always be horrible both as price or availability. 
It's been 2 years and a half since things went bad. I estimate 1 decade for things to get back to normal for regions like mine....if ever!


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## ARF (Jun 18, 2022)

Cvrk said:


> *never *is the answer.



There is no such answer. Everything comes to an end, sooner or later. Every balloon will explode, the economic ones also.

The current situation is such because of the ongoing cartel. Once AMD or Nvidia lose competitiveness because of lackluster product lineup, their pricing strategy will naturally start to degrade.


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## Lei (Jun 18, 2022)

even if there's no normal, there's always a minimum.
my psu, hdd, ssd, gpu, keyboard, mobo, webcam, even wifi dongle are all bought second hand. I only pay a good price for my next gpu. I've got my eyes locked on 3090.



ARF said:


> There is no such answer. Everything comes to an end, sooner or later. Every balloon will explode, the economic ones also.
> 
> The current situation is such because of the ongoing cartel. Once AMD or Nvidia lose competitiveness because of lackluster product lineup, their pricing strategy will naturally start to degrade.


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## Lei (Jun 19, 2022)

My tracking for June 19th. 3DCenter will release their report in few hours.
Taiwan has managed its daily covid cases.
14% of their population got covid but slowing down. 










Some used 3090 are sold below 900$. They were watercooled on both sides 





That's my post from Feb 16, I said prices will be normal between May to July. 
I was joking about June 2024 of course 


Lei said:


> Here's my prediction based on 3dCenter triweekly report.
> 100% MSRP at either mid April, late July or early June 2024
> If it keeps dropping like the last three weeks, it's April. If it drops like the 8% in 3 weeks, then mid summer. It makes sense, because Lovelace will arrive in Q3~4 this year, so they want to sell Ampere at msrp before the launch:
> 
> ...


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## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 20, 2022)

So, my personal indicator for "normal" had been when the 60-series cards get to around USD250.  But that gets all confusing, because (sticking with Nvidia here), the 960 was a $200 card, the 1060 launched at $300, 1660 for $220, 2060 at $350 (because RTX tax; P/P vs 1660 would have suggested $300), and the 3060 would hypothetically have been $330 if not for crypto/COVID.

On the AMD side, over the same period we had the 380 at $200, the 480/580 for $230, and then a whole lot of nothing until the $280 5600 XT, and then $329 for the 6600.  I _guess_ one could include the (ugh) 6500 XT, which can be found below $200 now. That's a pretty serious price gap IMO between "possibly good enough if you accept some sacrifices" to "good enough full stop."

Top-end cards have basically come back to baseline when one takes annual inflation and such into account.  I'm not sure what to think about what we used to call midrange, though.  USD200 was what I'd considered the threshold, but there appears to be a fairly solid $300 floor for the 6600 and 3050.  3060 is holding fast at $400.  All that's a long-winded way of saying I don't know what my magic number should be anymore.


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## AnotherReader (Jun 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> So, my personal indicator for "normal" had been when the 60-series cards get to around USD250.  But that gets all confusing, because (sticking with Nvidia here), the 960 was a $200 card, the 1060 launched at $300, 1660 for $220, 2060 at $350 (because RTX tax; P/P vs 1660 would have suggested $300), and the 3060 would hypothetically have been $330 if not for crypto/COVID.
> 
> On the AMD side, over the same period we had the 380 at $200, the 480/580 for $230, and then a whole lot of nothing until the $280 5600 XT, and then $329 for the 6600.  I _guess_ one could include the (ugh) 6500 XT, which can be found below $200 now. That's a pretty serious price gap IMO between "possibly good enough if you accept some sacrifices" to "good enough full stop."
> 
> Top-end cards have basically come back to baseline when one takes annual inflation and such into account.  I'm not sure what to think about what we used to call midrange, though.  USD200 was what I'd considered the threshold, but there appears to be a fairly solid $300 floor for the 6600 and 3050.  3060 is holding fast at $400.  All that's a long-winded way of saying I don't know what my magic number should be anymore.


In Canada, some models of the 6600 are available for the equivalent of USD 270 with the 6600 XT starting at USD 309. I think we'll see lower prices as we get closer to the RTX 4000 launch. Hopefully, Bitcoin and Ethereum will stay down.


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## Lei (Jun 21, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> In Canada, some models of the 6600 are available for the equivalent of USD 270 with the 6600 XT starting at USD 309. I think we'll see lower prices as we get closer to the RTX 4000 launch. Hopefully, Bitcoin and Ethereum will stay down.


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## AnotherReader (Jun 21, 2022)

Lei said:


> View attachment 251878


Let's hope it's a last gasp. The longer-term trend is clear.


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## 64K (Jun 21, 2022)

Card prices here in the USA have dropped way down and continue to drop. I still wouldn't recommend buying with the next gen GPUs are so close to release. The next gen GPUs are most likely going to be a huge leap in performance and well worth waiting for.


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## 80251 (Jun 21, 2022)

64K said:


> Card prices here in the USA have dropped way down and continue to drop. I still wouldn't recommend buying with the next gen GPUs are so close to release. The next gen GPUs are most likely going to be a huge leap in performance and well worth waiting for.


They might be worth waiting for but, if the debacle of the release of the ampere cards is repeated, they will be unobtainable and priced far beyond MSRP.


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## Lei (Jun 21, 2022)

80251 said:


> They might be worth waiting for but, if the debacle of the release of the ampere cards is repeated, they will be unobtainable and priced far beyond MSRP.


I guess nVidia will make very few Ada gpus. just to snuggle on the performance throne. forcing you to snatch the Ampere stock even after ada launches. 
This time won't be scalpers or miners making cards unavailable, but nVidia would say : we couldn't make more than just a handful of cards. wait for restock & reloaded...


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## ARF (Jun 21, 2022)

Lei said:


> I guess nVidia will make very few Ada gpus. just to snuggle on the performance throne. forcing you to snatch the Ampere stock even after ada launches.
> This time won't be scalpers or miners making cards unavailable, but nVidia would say : we couldn't make more than just a handful of cards. wait for restock & reloaded...



No one can force you anything - nvidia needs your money, and if it wants to get at least anything, it must return a decent deal. Ampere is not a decent deal


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## Lei (Jun 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> No one can force you anything - nvidia needs your money, and if it wants to get at least anything, it must return a decent deal. Ampere is not a decent deal


Nah, used 3090 are at great deal, around 900$.
If nVidia doesn't raise the 4090 msrp from 1499, it can have my money. but if it raises, someone else is going to refund parts of what he paid for an old 3090.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 23, 2022)




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## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 23, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> View attachment 252082



Context, please.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jun 23, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Context, please.



miners offloading their cards in China.


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## 64K (Jun 23, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> miners offloading their cards in China.



I don't recall where I read about some miners dumping their cards through a livestreamed card auction but this may be it.


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## Ohnoitzbryan (Jun 23, 2022)

I got myself a Sapphire 6900xt Toxic LE a few months ago for like 1500€.
Saw the price drop to MSRP the other day around (1100€).

Could bite myself for this 
But tbf i sold my 1080ti for 450€ when prices were still higher.


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## Lei (Jun 23, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> miners offloading their cards in China.


Gamenets do too. They don't want to end up with years-old equipment. Sells better before it's too old


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## cvaldes (Jun 24, 2022)

64K said:


> I don't recall where I read about some miners dumping their cards through a livestreamed card auction but this may be it.


Many PC and gaming news sites have covered this topic. Here are a couple of articles:









						Crypto Miners Start Dumping GPUs, RTX 3080s Listed for $523
					

Finally, the light at the end of the tunnel




					www.tomshardware.com
				












						Miners are dumping GPUs via livestreamed auctions
					

What started as a trickle is becoming a flood.




					www.pcgamer.com
				




but many other sites have reported this.

My guess is if GeForce 40 series cards launch with minimal inventory they will sell out, scalpers will have another heyday and the street price of current 30 series cards will increase (likely above MSRP again) until there is good supply of the 40 series cards.

When the next generation video cards debut I don't expect a substantial MSRP cut on current generation cards because COGS has increased since launch; AMD and Nvidia aren't going to slash gross margin.


----------



## AlwaysHope (Jun 24, 2022)

I'm seeing some literally insane prices over here in Australia now with new gpu prices. An example is an RX 6800 XT for under AUD 1K, including shipping! 
An RX 6900 XT is only a hundred bucks more...


----------



## 64K (Jun 24, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> I'm seeing some literally insane prices over here in Australia now with new gpu prices. An example is an RX 6800 XT for under AUD 1K, including shipping!
> An RX 6900 XT is only a hundred bucks more...



Glad to see you Australians getting a break in prices. The price of cards continue to drop here in the USA. The MSI Gaming 3080 has dropped to $805 and will probably drop some more. The MSRP is $700. I don't know if it will drop that low though. It's just a shame that the crypto crash didn't happen 2 years ago. We're looking at the next gen GPUs coming pretty soon so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to buy an Ampere now so late in the cycle.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 24, 2022)

64K said:


> Glad to see you Australians getting a break in prices. The price of cards continue to drop here in the USA. The MSI Gaming 3080 has dropped to $805 and will probably drop some more. The MSRP is $700. I don't know if it will drop that low though. It's just a shame that the crypto crash didn't happen 2 years ago. We're looking at the next gen GPUs coming pretty soon so* it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to buy an Ampere now so late in the cycle*.



That's hard to say.  You're probably right, but there's no way to know how the market's going to react to the new cards.  It's hard to believe that launch prices would be less than the current street prices (or launch prices) of their predecessor.  Let's say the 4080 drops at an MSRP of USD800, but sells for $1K or $1.1K; maybe the 4080 has better p/p at that price, but I'd personally have a hard time dropping that much extra dough.  Of course, I personally wouldn't drop even 800 bones on a card, so my opinion doesn't really count for much.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jun 24, 2022)

Look out, used mining GPUs are turning up with dead memory chips
					

Second-hand mining GPUs might work fine, but the memory could well be bricked, making for a lame used graphics card.




					www.pcgamer.com
				









						锻炼坏的3080什么样，改成3080 8g也能用_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
					

锻炼坏的3080什么样，改成3080 8g也能用, 视频播放量 12227、弹幕量 74、点赞数 389、投硬币枚数 51、收藏人数 50、转发人数 27, 视频作者 智强显卡工作室, 作者简介...




					www.bilibili.com


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## ARF (Jun 24, 2022)

In Germany the RX 6500 XT can be found CHEAPER than an RX 6400 




AMD Radeon RX 6500 XT Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen




AMD Radeon RX 6400 Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen


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## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 24, 2022)

ARF said:


> In Germany the RX 6500 XT can be found CHEAPER than an RX 6400
> 
> View attachment 252267
> AMD Radeon RX 6500 XT Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen
> ...



Huh.  Same thing's going on in the US.  _What_ is happening here?!?


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 24, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Context, please.



There are a lot of graphics cards in this picture.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Jun 24, 2022)

Glancing over my local Micro Center prices on some models:

6700XT - there is one Powercolor model that's $499 (only $20 over MSRP).
RTX 3060 - cheapest one is $389, all others are $420+. Still upwards of $60+ over MSRP.
6900XT - one is $869 ($130 below MSRP) all others are under MSRP, but closer to $950....one model has 7 open boxes priced starting at $685.96 (6 out of 7 are priced at $685.96 - holy crap, that's a helluva deal)
RTX 3090 - most are still over MSRP (aside from some open box deals) by at least $50-100
RTX 3080 10GB & 12GB - all priced at $1k+ (damn, still way over MSRP)
6800XT - still around $100-150 over MSRP


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## 80-watt Hamster (Jun 24, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> There are a lot of graphics cards in this picture.



Yup, there sure are.


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## 64K (Jun 24, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> Glancing over my local Micro Center prices on some models:
> 
> 6700XT - there is one Powercolor model that's $499 (only $20 over MSRP).
> RTX 3060 - cheapest one is $389, all others are $420+. Still upwards of $60+ over MSRP.
> ...



If you don't mind buying from Amazon you can get a MSI Gaming 3080 10 GB for $800. That's still $100 over MSRP but it's a lot better than when the mining craze was going on.



			https://www.amazon.com/MSI-RTX-3080-LHR-10G/dp/B09FSWGS7L/ref=sr_1_5?crid=34X13DJK63E0S&keywords=rtx+3080&qid=1656097575&sprefix=rtx+3080%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-5
		



The 12 GB version is $850



			https://www.amazon.com/MSI-GeForce-RTX-3080-LHR/dp/B09QKL8XG5/ref=sr_1_7?crid=34X13DJK63E0S&keywords=rtx+3080&qid=1656097676&sprefix=rtx+3080%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-7


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## skizzo (Jun 24, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Huh.  Same thing's going on in the US.  _What_ is happening here?!?
> 
> View attachment 252270



reminds me of this situation.....a 12fl oz bottle of Coke might be $1.49 at the local gas station.....sitting next to a 2 liter bottle for 99cents lmao makes no sense

at least the soda situation could have _some_ explanation....my theory being ppl prefer to buy a single serving while on the go so they hike up the cost of the smaller portion since they know that is what ppl will buy. that's why those bottles are nice and chilled in the coolers (nice!) and the 1 liters are out on the shelves at room temp (who wants warm soda!?)

but that argument cannot apply to a GPU....I cannot think of a scenario where the less powerful, less advanced piece of tech would be more expensive. yet here we are


----------



## ARF (Jun 24, 2022)

skizzo said:


> reminds me of this situation.....a 12fl oz bottle of Coke might be $1.49 at the local gas station.....sitting next to a 2 liter bottle for 99cents lmao makes no sense
> 
> at least the soda situation could have _some_ explanation....my theory being ppl prefer to buy a single serving while on the go so they hike up the cost of the smaller portion since they know that is what ppl will buy. that's why those bottles are nice and chilled in the coolers (nice!) and the 1 liters are out on the shelves at room temp (who wants warm soda!?)
> 
> but that argument cannot apply to a GPU....I cannot think of a scenario where the less powerful, less advanced piece of tech would be more expensive. yet here we are



It is a bug/defect of the "free" market economy caused by one of these or a mix:
1. Significantly better quantities of good RX 6500 XT qualified for retail;
2. Someone doesn't know what they are selling;
3. They don't care about us - want to show us that they define absurd situations;
4. Simple speculation on the RX 6400 price level.

In either case, the lesson is quite visible - for God's sake, don't buy the inferior RX 6400.
The performance difference is 35%:




AMD Radeon RX 6400 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database


----------



## neatfeatguy (Jun 24, 2022)

skizzo said:


> reminds me of this situation.....a 12fl oz bottle of Coke might be $1.49 at the local gas station.....sitting next to a 2 liter bottle for 99cents lmao makes no sense
> 
> at least the soda situation could have _some_ explanation....my theory being ppl prefer to buy a single serving while on the go so they hike up the cost of the smaller portion since they know that is what ppl will buy. that's why those bottles are nice and chilled in the coolers (nice!) and the 1 liters are out on the shelves at room temp (who wants warm soda!?)
> 
> but that argument cannot apply to a GPU....I cannot think of a scenario where the less powerful, less advanced piece of tech would be more expensive. yet here we are



You're paying extra for the convenience for the size and amount of pop. It's easier to carry around a 12/20oz bottle and finish it in a timely fashion over a 2 litter.


----------



## AlwaysHope (Jun 25, 2022)

64K said:


> Glad to see you Australians getting a break in prices. The price of cards continue to drop here in the USA. The MSI Gaming 3080 has dropped to $805 and will probably drop some more. The MSRP is $700. I don't know if it will drop that low though. It's just a shame that the crypto crash didn't happen 2 years ago. We're looking at the next gen GPUs coming pretty soon so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to buy an Ampere now so late in the cycle.


Yeah, seems like a global trend for dGPU price cuts all round. But hey, gotta get rid of last season's stock right? 
I agree doesn't make much sense investing in this soon to be superseded generation especially considering ray tracing will be more common with future releases of games & Nvidia's offering with Ampere tech is luke warm at best but still ahead of RDNA2s.


----------



## ARF (Jun 25, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> Yeah, seems like a global trend for dGPU price cuts all round. But hey, gotta get rid of last season's stock right?
> I agree doesn't make much sense investing in this soon to be superseded generation especially considering ray tracing will be more common with future releases of games & Nvidia's offering with Ampere tech is luke warm at best but still ahead of RDNA2s.



Speaking of RT, I guess RDNA 3 will be heavily improved in that regard. So, RDNA 2 is already a no-go at this point. I'd not risk to buy it if the next gen turns out to be several times faster, as it needs to in order to be competitive.












ASRock Radeon RX 6950 XT OC Formula Review - Ray Tracing | TechPowerUp


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 25, 2022)

skizzo said:


> reminds me of this situation.....a 12fl oz bottle of Coke might be $1.49 at the local gas station.....sitting next to a 2 liter bottle for 99cents lmao makes no sense
> 
> at least the soda situation could have _some_ explanation....my theory being ppl prefer to buy a single serving while on the go so they hike up the cost of the smaller portion since they know that is what ppl will buy. that's why those bottles are nice and chilled in the coolers (nice!) and the 1 liters are out on the shelves at room temp (who wants warm soda!?)
> 
> but that argument cannot apply to a GPU....I cannot think of a scenario where the less powerful, less advanced piece of tech would be more expensive. yet here we are



What do you mean, surely you want your GPU nice and cold, and not burning to a crisp?

That's literally what you get with anything high end now. Wait for ada. You'll see


----------



## ARF (Jun 25, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> What do you mean, surely you want your GPU nice and cold, and not burning to a crisp?
> 
> That's literally what you get with anything high end now. Wait for ada. You'll see



There are news in a positive direction that nvidia tunes the specs of the new GPUs so that the new TDP is lower now, while the shaders are more.




NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090/4080/4070 get new rumored specs, RTX 4070 with 7168 cores and 10GB 160-bit memory? - VideoCardz.com

Look at how the AD102 gets more shaders - up from 16 128 to 16 384 and TDP is rated ~450 watts.

The bad news is that the 10 GB RTX 4070 will be DOA.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 25, 2022)

ARF said:


> There are news in a positive direction that nvidia tunes the specs of the new GPUs so that the new TDP is lower now, while the shaders are more.
> 
> View attachment 252360
> NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090/4080/4070 get new rumored specs, RTX 4070 with 7168 cores and 10GB 160-bit memory? - VideoCardz.com
> ...



Myeah those rumors are just flying doodoo moving for walls, hoping to stick. We'll see, but I think one certainty is that TDP is going to get a major bump again.


----------



## ARF (Jun 25, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Myeah those rumors are just flying doodoo moving for walls, hoping to stick. We'll see, but I think one certainty is that TDP is going to get a major bump again.



I can't wait to see the new RDNA 3 cards. Have a precognition that AMD is readying much better offers.


----------



## ModEl4 (Jun 25, 2022)

ARF said:


> There are news in a positive direction that nvidia tunes the specs of the new GPUs so that the new TDP is lower now, while the shaders are more.
> 
> View attachment 252360
> NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090/4080/4070 get new rumored specs, RTX 4070 with 7168 cores and 10GB 160-bit memory? - VideoCardz.com
> ...


There is no chance in hell 4080 reference model being AD103 based to have 420W TBP, so the above table is horseshit imo.
If it comes true 4080 will be DOA and whoever responsible in Nvidia must be fired immediately imo.
I suppose they just subtracted 30W from 4090 because they thought 30W is the 3090-3080 difference, that's my guess.

Regarding 4070 if it's 10GB like they say, it will be a very bad development, the design will be probably bandwidth limited logically unless they use 24Gbps GDDR6X which isn't happening (with 56SMs present there won't be a ROP cut) and regardless bandwidth limitations or not, 10GB at $499-$599 price range in 2022 is inexcusable, there is a limit where the cost-cutting measures isn't tolerable anymore.
If we were talking about a cut down AD104 version at $399-$449, replacing 3060Ti, OK maybe right on the edge of what seems acceptable memory wise.
I hope Nvidia to not be so greedy, wanting to impose unnecessary limits in order to force earlier upgrade cycles...
Edit: depending on the price of Navi33 and if there will be 16GB versions or not (probably not?) maybe someone at Nvidia thought they can get away with 10GB, I hope eventually in the future Intel ARC's next-gen series (Battle mage etc) to be competitive in more price ranges, because we need more competition to revigorate the market.
Another occurrence if they use 160bit bus is that they will pair it with GDDR6X probably resulting the raster  performance/W vs 3070 to be in the most positive scenario up to 30% regarding this specific comparison (4070-3070) which will be a huge fail based on the process differences.


----------



## ARF (Jun 25, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> There is no chance in hell 4080 reference model being AD103 based to have 420W TBP, so the above table is horseshit imo.
> If it comes true 4080 will be DOA and whoever responsible in Nvidia must be fired immediately imo.
> I suppose they just subtracted 30W from 4090 because they thought 30W is the 3090-3080 difference, that's my guess.



Commenting on this part of your post.
I think it makes sense because the shader count difference between the AD102 (16K shaders) and AD103 (10K shaders) is too large, and maybe they increased the clocks heavily in order to get some performance back from those 10K shaders.

It won't be DOA because of the high TDP.


----------



## ModEl4 (Jun 25, 2022)

ARF said:


> Commenting on this part of your post.
> I think it makes sense because the shader count difference between the AD102 (16K shaders) and AD103 (10K shaders) is too large, and maybe they increased the clocks heavily in order to get some performance back from those 10K shaders.
> 
> It won't be DOA because of the high TDP.


Sure the difference between shading  power & performance between 4090 and 4080 is big, but between them we will probably have another model (4080Ti?).
4090 will be only -11% cut down in relation with full AD102 according to the source you quoted, there is no chance Nvidia to stop there, AD102 will be further cut down with 4080Ti at most with 14848 CUDA cores (and at least +25% performance vs 4080) and that part will have lower than 4090's 450W TDP, in worst case 420W. (maybe they got a 420W tip and they confusing this TBP with AD103?)
There is no logic for AD103 to stress it from 350W to 420W for a 5% gain or whatever, the 25% difference that 4080Ti possibly will have in relation with 4080 is fine if you take account the potential price difference (3080 with only $100 difference vs 3070Ti is 20% faster in 4K and have also +25% more memory)
In the event that AD103 based 4080 is  420W, I'm sure that there will be many people to buy it, after all Nvidia brand awareness is huge so technically not DOA, but you know what I mean, there is going to be a lot of people that will be put off from the TDP, so many potential lost sales and the performance/W narrative will get hit badly also, then slowly there are going to be floating rumors in various forums/leakers/sites that Nvidia is starting to losing steam if AMD can get >50% performance/W going from TSMC 7nm to TSMC 6+5nm combo and Nvidia cannot bring even that going from 8nm Samsung to N4, creating unnecessary bad image and prospect for Nvidia image, products, stock whatever, so yes, I don't know what decision the Nvidia's managers will make but I sure know that this doesn't seem to be the right one...


----------



## ARF (Jun 25, 2022)

The "Ti" versions are stop-gaps normally launched much later - RTX 3080 Ti in May 2021, while original RTX 3080 much earlier in 2020.

This lineup looks very strange, the performance estimates simply do not look right, and the lineup is heavily rearranged / rebalanced - the RTX 4090 will pull forward and the gap with the rest of the lineup will be huge.

RTX 4090 = RTX 3090 + 56% more shaders.
RTX 4080 = RTX 3080 +18% more shaders.
RTX 4070 = RTX 3070 + 21% more shaders.

While RTX 3090 was only ~10-15% faster on average than the RTX 3080.
RTX 3080 was 30% faster than RTX 3070.

If the shaders do not give higher IPC, then the RTX 4070 will remain about the same performance or slower than the September 2020 10 GB RTX 3080.


----------



## N/A (Jun 25, 2022)

have no doubts that 4070 /80 are at least 50% faster. shaders IPC and clocks are not the same for ampere and ada, but that remains to be seen.
take 1070 / 970 for example. 15% more shaders, 40% clock speed. 61% faster, it's actually too perfect. but somehow the story repeats itself.


----------



## ARF (Jun 25, 2022)

N/A said:


> have no doubts that 4070 /80 are at least 50% faster. shaders IPC and clocks are not the same for ampere and ada, but that remains to be seen.
> take 1070 / 970 for example. 15% more shaders, 40% clock speed. 61% faster, it's actually too perfect. but somehow the story repeats itself.



Yeah, the N4 process should be 50-60% faster at the same wattage (than Samsung 8N).
Also, the clocks must be much higher. 2.5 GHz? 2.8 GHz AD103?

The question is - are the shaders smaller with lower IPC or the same size but slightly faster?


----------



## ModEl4 (Jun 26, 2022)

ARF said:


> The "Ti" versions are stop-gaps normally launched much later - RTX 3080 Ti in May 2021, while original RTX 3080 much earlier in 2020.
> 
> This lineup looks very strange, the performance estimates simply do not look right, and the lineup is heavily rearranged / rebalanced - the RTX 4090 will pull forward and the gap with the rest of the lineup will be huge.
> 
> ...


Usually yes, regarding Ti versions launch, but there are exceptions, for example 3060Ti launched 2 months and 1 week after 3090, 2080Ti launched at the same time with 2080 etc.
And after all, the model numbering could be different from the table you quoted.(We could have for example a RTX 4090 Ultra for a Full AD102 version, who knows? 
Irrespective from model numbering which can change, there are many examples (but not always) when the most cut down part of a GPU die comes at an earlier stage of a GPU lifecycle (concurrent or with small difference like 3060Ti) and as the yields improve over the lifetime of the product, either we have a refresh or if not the manufacturer can limit just a little bit the availability of the most cut down part if it make sense based on yields.
Another reason for AD103 not to be excessively stressed out is potentially the SM count, full AD102 (192SM) will be served with 384bit bus & 24Gbps GDDR6X (possibly limited availability in order to be able to support many SKUs) and to have the same bandwidth per/SM with 21Gbps GDDR6X memory on a 256bit bus, AD103 must be 112SM instead of the more orthodoxal 128SM, if Ada design is bandwidth limited (I think it will be, just like Pascal) there is no reason to stress AD103 frequency too much since the gains will be limited anyway, but this is just my speculation, we will see.
On top of specs, additional info can occure if you see what historically Nvidia did in the past when it launched a new lineup and how they brought their top last gen performance level at what (lower) price points.
Try to imagine Nvidia's CEO on stage announcing the $500 Ada part, then correlate with corresponding ada model/specs based on your optic and what performance that part must at least reach in order to generate the minimum buzz and then extrapolate from there.
Without even taking account the specs, how likely is it according to your perception, the $499 part (whatever the name) to be less than 3080?  (imo logically it will be at least matching 3080 *12GB* and at that point Navi 33 how much faster it will be if any, since everybody saying that it will be slower at 4K than 6900XT due to 128bit bus (probably it will have around 6800XT 4K performance?)








ARF said:


> Yeah, the N4 process should be 50-60% faster at the same wattage (than Samsung 8N).
> Also, the clocks must be much higher. 2.5 GHz? 2.8 GHz AD103?
> 
> The question is - are the shaders smaller with lower IPC or the same size but slightly faster?


N4 has 63% clock speed increase potential for logic vs N16 according to TSMC and N16 can hit very similar frequencies to Samsung's 8nm.
Logically there will be eventually OC ada models close to 3GHz if ada architecture is designed for high clocks throughput.


----------



## SpittinFax (Jun 26, 2022)

The mid-high tier RTX 3060 and RTX 3060 Ti cards in Australia have stubbornly refused to drop in price since early May, unfortunately. Only the MSI RTX 3060 Ti Ventus 2X has seen a substantial price drop of AU$100, the rest have hardly moved.

I took some screenshots on 12th May of prices to keep track of them. Here's pricing for those cards on 12th May:



Spoiler: RTX 3060 - 12 May 2022


















Spoiler: RTX 3060 Ti - 12 May 2022
















Now the current pricing for comparison:



Spoiler: RTX 3060 - 26 June 2022


















Spoiler: RTX 3060 Ti - 26 June 2022
















Granted there's more stock, but most cards haven't seen any change and most prices still suck.


----------



## ARF (Jun 26, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> I don't know what decision the Nvidia's managers will make but I sure know that this doesn't seem to be the right one...



These know that the users have no choice - it is 50-50 AMD or nvidia, so no matter what they do or how bad their action is, the sales will go on, anyways. They have nothing to lose, so they have the freedom not to think in the right direction.


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## ModEl4 (Jun 26, 2022)

ARF said:


> These know that the users have no choice - it is 50-50 AMD or nvidia, so no matter what they do or how bad their action is, the sales will go on, anyways. They have nothing to lose, so they have the freedom not to think in the right direction.


Maybe, we'll see.
The only reason to do it imo (still wrong decision) is if they saw according to their simulations that full Navi32 is ahead of AD103 and thought to compensate with a +5% performance boost pushing frequency up (and power consumption through the roof).
They could just take the 5% beating (like in 3070Ti/6800 case, since at 350W the performance/W comparison would be fine and the memory size the same unlike what we have now for 3070Ti/6800), inform partners to balance more their production towards OC models and selling just a little bit above SRP these OC models while entry models are just at SRP in order to save face lol (but it doesn't matter if the entry models don't sell much since partners will have already arrange their production accordingly) and maybe add a game bundle at a later date if they still need to push further. (But logically there will not be a need to push further or push any at all lol, the performance/W difference will be less than 10% and the memory size the same, right now 6800 is 35% more efficient vs 3070Ti and has double the memory and still Mindfactory starts at 699€ for a 3070Ti (with a KFA² entry or an INNO3D 3X lol) while 6800 starts at -50€ (649€) for a much more high quality Asrock Phantom Gaming model, so no need at all for Nvidia to worry for 5% performance loss...
I wonder have many people from the TPU audience that buys 4080 level GPUs, would be deterred from the increased TDP. (the below chart doesn't say much it's too generic)


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## ARF (Jun 27, 2022)

AMD Radeon RX 6400 Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen
AMD Radeon RX 6400 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database

Actual retail prices:
*Radeon RX 6400* - from 171 euros (MSRP 159 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6500 XT* - from 170 euros (MSRP 199 dollars) 
*Radeon RX 6600* - from 298 euros (MSRP 329 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6600 XT* - from 398 euros (MSRP 379 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6650 XT* - from 405 euros (MSRP 399 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6700 XT* - from 509 euros (MSRP 479 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6750 XT* - from 600 euros (MSRP 549 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6800* - from 680 euros (MSRP 579 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6800 XT* - from 800 euros (MSRP 649 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6900 XT* - from 900 euros (MSRP 999 dollars)
*Radeon RX 6950 XT* - from 1208 euros (MSRP 1099 dollars)


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## ARF (Jun 30, 2022)

Very interesting: This is how much graphics cards should cost based on their performance alone - VideoCardz.com


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## ModEl4 (Jun 30, 2022)

ARF said:


> Very interesting: This is how much graphics cards should cost based on their performance alone - VideoCardz.com
> 
> View attachment 253134
> 
> View attachment 253135


It doesn't take account the memory size at all, so it ends being a little unfair depending the comparison.
You could argue that the PCB components or the memory type/speed used is affecting performance so taking account the performance metric you are somehow including them also in a "fair" comparison regarding price/performance metric, but in some games and resolutions, memory size doesn't bring more performance, it just covers you for future games so you can keep your VGA more years, that's an important extra value relatively easier to quantify (in relation with other values like media engine, s/w etc)  that's not taken into account at all (in their experiment with the logic they used a 16GB 6800XT/3070 should have cost the same as a 8GB 6800XT/3070.
Also while RTX 3050 is compared based on 4K difference, Navi24 models are compared based on 1080p difference which is unfair since both are 1080p level cards, the reason they doing it, is because memory size & bandwidth and infinity cache size absolutely kill the 4K performance of Navi24 models.
At least they could have used 1080p difference for Navi24/Navi23 (which is the more indicative difference based on what it targets) and QHD difference for RTX3050/3060 if not FHD, QHD it wouldn't change much for 3050 but at least it would "seem" a little bit more fair.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jul 1, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> It doesn't take account the memory size at all, so it ends being a little unfair depending the comparison.
> You could argue that the PCB components or the memory type/speed used is affecting performance so taking account the performance metric you are somehow including them also in a "fair" comparison regarding price/performance metric, but in some games and resolutions, memory size doesn't bring more performance, it just covers you for future games so you can keep your VGA more years, that's an important extra value relatively easier to quantify (in relation with other values like media engine, s/w etc)  that's not taken into account at all (in their experiment with the logic they used a 16GB 6800XT/3070 should have cost the same as a 8GB 6800XT/3070.
> Also while RTX 3050 is compared based on 4K difference, Navi24 models are compared based on 1080p difference which is unfair since both are 1080p level cards, the reason they doing it, is because memory size & bandwidth and infinity cache size absolutely kill the 4K performance of Navi24 models.
> At least they could have used 1080p difference for Navi24/Navi23 (which is the more indicative difference based on what it targets) and QHD difference for RTX3050/3060 if not FHD, QHD it wouldn't change much for 3050 but at least it would "seem" a little bit more fair.


It would be more logical to use QHD across the board, as that is where AMD/Nvidia reach parity for equal performing parts. Using 4k seems strongly Nvidia biased to me, especially as 1080p is still the most common gaming resolution.


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## ModEl4 (Jul 1, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> It would be more logical to use QHD across the board, as that is where AMD/Nvidia reach parity for equal performing parts. Using 4k seems strongly Nvidia biased to me, especially as 1080p is still the most common gaming resolution.


I don't know much about 3DCenter but they don't seem to me Nvidia biased, in their performance charts AMD's models enjoy slightly better % positioning in relation to Nvidia's "similar" models than in TPU % performance charts (for example RX6400 is above GTX1650 in FHD in their charts) i guess they just used 4K in order to be more "fair" to the higher end models?
It's the right thing to do also unless a model suffers from excessive performance loss in 4K like Navi24 in most games (or excessive performance loss in only a handful of games (1?) like GTX 1660 series strangely lol)
If you check performance deltas in older titles at max settings (or esport titles) or newer titles at minimum/medium settings and compare them with new titles at max settings, you will see that as you increase the effects implemented/texture size etc in an engine/game, so the performance delta increasing between cards.
So if you want to see what the performance differences will end up between 2 same gen/manufacturer models after 2-3 or more years, the current 4K indication is possibly a better example because on average due to the more effects implemented in future titles the performance delta will likely increase also (after all we are at cross-gen phase right now, so even more potential for the performance delta to be bigger in future titles imo) of course it's not accurate and can't give exactly what the performance delta will be after 2-3 years but closer in order to be preferable (i mean current 4K deltas will be closer to future QHD deltas than current QHD deltas) and anyway the current QHD deltas isn't dramatically different from current 4K deltas anyway, unless we are talking about specific models, usually Navi 23 and below due to bandwidth limitations & infinity cache size used or other models due to memory size etc, for those models maybe a specific exception, although it isn't out of the realm of possibility in 2 years from now, an unreal engine 5 game (or some other game that pushes the visual boundaries less well optimized than unreal engine's 5) can show performance problems even in QHD for Navi23 due to infinity cache size/bandwidth limitations.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jul 1, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> I don't know much about 3DCenter but they don't seem to me Nvidia biased, in their performance charts AMD's models enjoy slightly better % positioning in relation to Nvidia's "similar" models than in TPU % performance charts (for example RX6400 is above GTX1650 in FHD in their charts) i guess they just used 4K in order to be more "fair" to the higher end models?
> It's the right thing to do also unless a model suffers from excessive performance loss in 4K like Navi24 in most games (or excessive performance loss in only a handful of games (1?) like GTX 1660 series strangely lol)
> If you check performance deltas in older titles at max settings (or esport titles) or newer titles at minimum/medium settings and compare them with new titles at max settings, you will see that as you increase the effects implemented/texture size etc in an engine/game, so the performance delta increasing between cards.
> So if you want to see what the performance differences will end up between 2 same gen/manufacturer models after 2-3 or more years, the current 4K indication is possibly a better example because on average due to the more effects implemented in future titles the performance delta will likely increase also (after all we are at cross-gen phase right now, so even more potential for the performance delta to be bigger in future titles imo) of course it's not accurate and can't give exactly what the performance delta will be after 2-3 years but closer in order to be preferable (i mean current 4K deltas will be closer to future QHD deltas than current QHD deltas) and anyway the current QHD deltas isn't dramatically different from current 4K deltas anyway, unless we are talking about specific models, usually Navi 23 and below due to bandwidth limitations & infinity cache size used, for those models maybe a specific exception, although it isn't out of the realm of possibility in 2 years from now, an unreal engine 5 game (or some other game that pushes the visual boundaries less well optimized than unreal engine's 5) can show performance problems even in QHD for Navi23 due to infinity cache size/bandwidth limitations.


True, I can see your point. I was just referring to the fact that RDNA2 in general performs superior to Ampere at 1080p, roughly equivalent at QHD, and inferior at 4K.


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## ARF (Jul 1, 2022)

Memory size?
If they do that, they should include everything else - die size, memory bus width, memory type, etc...



Count von Schwalbe said:


> True, I can see your point. I was just referring to the fact that RDNA2 in general performs superior to Ampere at 1080p, roughly equivalent at QHD, and inferior at 4K.



Yeah, it's inferior at UHD because of older memory standard and lower memory throughput.
It is the most annoying "feature" of the RDNA 2-based cards - they lose competitiveness with higher resolutions.

I hope RDNA 3 will fix this and will do the opposite - become stronger at UHD, and ray-tracing.


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## DemonicRyzen666 (Jul 1, 2022)

Online retailers are still over priced even for used/refurbished, they're double the price of e-bay sellers. Sometimes you're better off going ino the brick and motar to find sales.


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## ModEl4 (Jul 1, 2022)

ARF said:


> Memory size?
> If they do that, they should include everything else - die size, memory bus width, memory type, etc...
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing bad about 3Dcenter's approach after all the part «based on their performance *alone*» says it all, it's clear what they did, they didn't misslead anyone, it's just that since memory is easier to quantify in relation to other differences like media engine s/w etc they could have gone a step further (die size-number of transistors preferably since the process difference will lead to even more virtual differences at what transistors alone will give, memory bus width, memory type are all affecting the final performance of each card anyway so taking account the performance in a degree includes the effect of all those metrics in the price/performance placement. In some cases depending the gpu/game/resolution, extra memory doesn't add anything in the performance, it just can give extra value to your card and you can keep it more years, that's why it would have been interesting to included it somehow in their conclusions.
AMD isn't inferior to Nvidia at 4K due to Nvidia's use of GDDR6X (newer memory standard), since GDDR6X gives little performance benefit for raster, just check 3070/3070Ti (although 3070 regarding raster is the most "memory bandwidth starved" model by far in Ampere lineup with 96Rops & 448GB/s, it's only 7% slower at 4K with -4% less shaders/TMUs etc. vs 3070Ti, for other Ampere models jumping to GDDR6X will give even less difference for raster specifically since ampere raster performance is not memory bandwidth limited like Pascal was for example) the reasons are mostly (like you mentioned) memory bandwidth (24Gbps GDDR6 would help a lot) and also infinity cache size related, RDNA3 according to leaks will fix at least the size of Infinity cache so it will certainly help there (a big cache can help with raytracing also but depends on the raytracing implementation, it must be designed to take advantage of the cache system)


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## ppn (Jul 1, 2022)

The narrow bus of RTX 4080 and RX 7800 XT renders them equally worse at 4K than prev gen. As for 4070 160bit and 7700 128bit watch them jump off a hill.


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## ARF (Jul 1, 2022)

ppn said:


> The narrow bus of RTX 4080 and RX 7800 XT renders them equally worse at 4K than prev gen. As for 4070 160bit and 7700 128bit watch them jump off a hill.



That will be the second generation product lineup with limited memory throughput, so it is highly likely the issue has been addressed and resolved somehow.
We'll see soon, hopefully.


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## gffermari (Jul 2, 2022)

I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.

So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.

Any suggestions?


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## ORLY (Jul 2, 2022)

stoggs1 said:


> do you guys think that gpu prices will be better by then?


The market works in a simple way pretty much: a seller increases prices up to the maximum level that a buyer is willing to pay.
It's like that for any product that is aimed to be bought by millions of people.

A manufacturer spends a specific amount of money to produce a product. Of course they want to make as much profit as possible.
But a regular buyer of regular hardware is not rich, so e.g. if NVIDIA spends let's say 150$ to manufacture one RTX 3060 videocard and then tries to sold it for 1500$ - 99,9% of such videocards will not be bought at all and all that money (150$ multiplied by the number of produced videocards) will be wasted because who needs that peformance for THAT price?!
Of course there are some additional "features" of that but the main idea is the same - a manufacturer produces goods to sell, and if they fail to sell - they lose money that they spent on production. Because NVIDIA, AMD, Intel don't need to keep any of the stuff they produced, they need to make money from selling it.

You know what I mean - the prices are being crazy only up to a point that there's no enough buyers willing to pay them. And who is willing to overpay now? That's correct - the miners.
While there's so many miners overpaying for videocards - the prices will be crazy. And they're willing to overpay until it's profitable.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jul 2, 2022)

gffermari said:


> I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
> I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.
> 
> So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.
> ...



I'd wait pretty sure whatever costs 800-1000 usd will be 40-60% faster and even if you decide to grab a 3080 ti betting there will be a fire sale on ebay whenever the 4000 series is announced... I have a 2080ti and a 3080ti the increase is nice but really only at 4k does it feel like a generational improvement.

I'd also want to see RDNA 3 before making a decision.... Ampere is old at this point a 3080 12G makes more sense if you can get it 200-ish cheaper than the ti


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## 80251 (Jul 2, 2022)

gffermari said:


> I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
> I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.
> 
> So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.
> ...


But will any of the 4080's actually be available? Or will the miners and scalpers be hoovering them up like dust on a dirty carpet?


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## gffermari (Jul 2, 2022)

That's the problem. Even if the 4080 is a bargain(msrp/performance) against the 3080/3080Ti, it would be difficult to get one, either because of the availability or the scalping prices.
So, the good scenario would be a meh price for a 4080, about now...next year.


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## P4-630 (Jul 2, 2022)

When will gpu prices return to normal?


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## ARF (Jul 2, 2022)

gffermari said:


> I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
> I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.
> 
> So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.
> ...



No, there is simply no way the 4080 to be so slow.
Look at the general performance gaps - they are tiny.




NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database



gffermari said:


> I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
> I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.
> 
> So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.
> ...



Suggestion - wait the next Black Friday.


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## mama (Jul 3, 2022)

gffermari said:


> I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
> I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.
> 
> So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.
> ...


Not sure where you are in the world but in Australia the pricing on 3090s particularly is still shocking.


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## Vayra86 (Jul 3, 2022)

ARF said:


> Very interesting: This is how much graphics cards should cost based on their performance alone - VideoCardz.com
> 
> View attachment 253134
> 
> View attachment 253135


Looks very legit, this is honestly what I would deem acceptable pricing.



P4-630 said:


> When will gpu prices return to normal?


Yeah I might B 40 by the time they do


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## gffermari (Jul 3, 2022)

mama said:


> Not sure where you are in the world but in Australia the pricing on 3090s particularly is still shocking.



I'm in UK.
The prices for new gpu are ok-ish here but I wouldn't buy a new 3080Ti/3090 at msrp 2 years after the release and certainly a couple of months before the next gen release.
I'm thinking of a second hand gpu. These prices are quite tempting....


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## ravenhold (Jul 4, 2022)

These prices are still to high even at MSRP. GPUs are out since 2020 and by now they should be way below MSRP .


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

Prices go down but not by much and definitely not below the 2020 MSRP.
New generation coming in several weeks.

NVIDIA & AMD GPU Prices Saw 57% Drop Since The Beginning of 2022, 14% Used GPU Price Drop Since June Alone (wccftech.com)

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 24 GB, RTX 4080 16 GB, RTX 4070 10 GB Graphics Card Specs Leaked: Flagship Rumored To Feature Over 2.75 GHz Clocks at 450W TGP (wccftech.com)


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## ravenhold (Jul 4, 2022)

ARF said:


> Prices go down but not by much and definitely not below the 2020 MSRP.
> New generation coming in several weeks.


They should go down since as if  they launched yesterday. Prices are still unnatural.


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

ravenhold said:


> They should go down since as if  they launched yesterday. Prices are still unnatural.



The problem is a global pricing issue in Europe.

Newegg lists the 16 GB Radeon RX 6800 XT for 695 dollars incl. shipping: radeon rx 6800 xt | Newegg.com





That is 660 euros at the exchange rate for today:






Meanwhile, in Europe they ask 800 euros: AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen





Robbery during a bright daylight 

A purchase is an agreement/deal between a seller and a buyer. If one of the sides uses its position to dominate, it is not good for either side.


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## ppn (Jul 4, 2022)

ab € 759,00 with VAT included 20%. so it's the same.

We have to wait for the miners let go of all the cards ~600 Th/s (3070 60.00 Mh/s), 
The resellers have to feel some pressure. There is no way around it.


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

ppn said:


> ab € 759,00 with VAT included 20%. so it's the same.



US states have no VAT. The German price is the lowest in Europe, in some other countries it is multiple times higher.

You can ask the EU commission to erase the VAT from technology products such as graphics cards.


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## Slyr7.62 (Jul 4, 2022)

Most of the US does have sales tax though, even if it's "only" around 8-10%.
Well too bad 4070 isn't out by xmas it seems like, but oh well.


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## authorized (Jul 4, 2022)

But prices in online stores are without sale tax, I presume? So... your final price is different based on the state you are ordering from? Looks kinda complicated...


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

Slyr7.62 said:


> Most of the US does have sales tax though, even if it's "only" around 8-10%.
> Well too bad 4070 isn't out by xmas it seems like, but oh well.



Five are without any VAT, and most and in the 4-7% range. 8-10% is the worst.







Sales taxes in the United States - Wikipedia

Europe is so bad in this regard. Hungary, for example, has the highest - 27%, Sweden, Norway and Denmark - 25%, Greece, Iceland and Finland - 24%, Portugal - 23%.
While Switzerland is the best - 7.7%. VAT Rates in Europe | Value-Added Tax | European Rankings (taxfoundation.org)


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## ppn (Jul 4, 2022)

Well you have to quote the price without VAT for direct comparison and problem solved.
so 759 / 1,19 would be 637. shipping included, now to be fair this is the only store. Most of them start at 999, so it's pretty bad. and probably doesn't ship to EU, Germany only. And even if it did, remains 19% I guess. SO recipient being in Hungary doesn't matter, VAT remains 19%.


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

ppn said:


> 759



You mean 799.


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## 64K (Jul 4, 2022)

authorized said:


> But prices in online stores are without sale tax, I presume? So... your final price is different based on the state you are ordering from? Looks kinda complicated...



Taxes are complicated here in the USA. Where I live the sales tax is 9.25% but there is no State Income Tax. Tags for cars are ridiculously cheap compared to some places I've lived. $30 a year whether you drive an old clunker or a brand new luxury car.

One thing is certain, the tax man is going to get his money one way or another. That applies to every country no matter where you live.


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## ppn (Jul 4, 2022)

ARF said:


> You mean 799.


759 for the asrock taichi, up until 18.6, 2 weeks ago used to be 964 shown by the price development chart on the pricewatch, we are slowly getting there. Just this one store over at the mindblown factory, but the others will follow I suppose.


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

ppn said:


> 759 for the asrock taichi, up until 18.6, 2 weeks ago used to be 964 shown by the price development chart on the pricewatch, we are slowly getting there.



Link or never happened?




AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT Grafikkarte Preisvergleich | Günstig bei idealo kaufen




ASRock Radeon RX 6800 XT TAICHI X OC 16GB GDDR6 ab 907,01 € | Preisvergleich bei idealo.de


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## ppn (Jul 4, 2022)

Not listed there, the other pricever.. not shipping abroad. But resellers are scouting those deals for quick bucks no doubt.
it's happening. Very real. unraveling rapidly over the next few months.


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## ModEl4 (Jul 4, 2022)

ARF said:


> Prices go down but not by much and definitely not below the 2020 MSRP.
> New generation coming in several weeks.
> 
> NVIDIA & AMD GPU Prices Saw 57% Drop Since The Beginning of 2022, 14% Used GPU Price Drop Since June Alone (wccftech.com)
> ...


60% & 49% is the percentages if you compare 4090/3090 base/boost clocks.
The 33% percent where did you find it?
Because it says that the actual max (boost) is 2750MHz vs the advertised (traditionally for Nvidia the actual max boost is 5-10% more vs the advertised boost depending on the model and on top of that we have what the OC models can do)
I didn't see a highly OC 3090 model like Strix/Aorus hitting 2100MHz (factory clocks) either, so logically it will be at least 43% instead of 33% imo.
Edit: it's from the article, but the assumptions are wrong imo


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## neatfeatguy (Jul 4, 2022)

64K said:


> Taxes are complicated here in the USA. Where I live the sales tax is 9.25% but there is no State Income Tax. Tags for cars are ridiculously cheap compared to some places I've lived. $30 a year whether you drive an old clunker or a brand new luxury car.
> 
> One thing is certain, the tax man is going to get his money one way or another. That applies to every country no matter where you live.





authorized said:


> But prices in online stores are without sale tax, I presume? So... your final price is different based on the state you are ordering from? Looks kinda complicated...




Vehicle tabs in MN are stupid pricy when you have a new car because it's based on the value of the car and the age of it.



Spoiler



There's the administration fee of $10.
There is a filing fee of $6.
There is a wheelage tax (depends on the county you live in); my county is $10.
That's just $26 in fees/taxes.

Next:
The biggest charge is based on the age & MSRP of your car (you're charged 1.25% of the car's MSRP) + shipping charges when the car is brand new (whatever the hell that entails, I don't know). Then, every year you pay tabs the value of the car drops by 10 percentage points. During the first year of the vehicle's life, the assessment is based on 100 percent of the base value. It's 90 percent for the second year, 80 percent for the third year, 70 percent for the fourth year and so on. In year 10, the state stops calculating the value and gives the flat rate sum of $25.

As to where the state finds the MSRP value of your car, it can differ for each person. The value many be obtained from the dealership or KBB or Edmunds or even a national database.

If you purchase a new car and it's MSRP is $50,000
1.25% is $625
Admin fee = $10
Filing fee = $6
Wheelage tax = (depends on your county); mine is $10

First year for Tabs in MN for a $50k car is going to be roughly $650 +/- a little depending on wheelage tax for your county.



Sales taxes are pretty simple for the average person living in the US. Sales tax will vary from state to state and even vary from county or even city. Examples: Hennepin county in MN has a sales tax rate of 7.53%. The city of Minneapolis resides in Hennepin county, but it has a different sales tax rate of 8.03%.

There can certainly be variations in what is taxed and why it is taxed, here are a couple examples:
In MN, there are no taxes on clothes/shoes. If you see a price tag of $50 on a pair of shoes, you pay $50. (but if you drove to Wisconsin - about a 45 minute drive from my location - clothing is taxed there. As you can see, what is taxed/not taxed will vary from state to state).
Also in MN, food at the grocery store is not taxed - unless it is food that is prepared for you. For example; you buy a loaf of bread on the shelf - no tax because there was no human preparation of the food once it gets to the shelf. If you go to the deli and purchase a sandwich that's been made (bread, mayo, mustard, meat, lettuce, etc) - taxed because human preparation was required to make the sandwich.

For most other things you'll always be taxed - the price you see marked on an item will be that price + sales tax. If you buy a GPU and it's priced $500 and the sales tax is 7.5%, you'll pay a total of $537.50 at the register.


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## ARF (Jul 4, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> 60% & 49% is the percentages if you compare 4090/3090 base/boost clocks.
> The 33% percent where did you find it?
> Because it says that the actual max (boost) is 2750MHz vs the advertised (traditionally for Nvidia the actual max boost is 5-10% more vs the advertised boost depending on the model and on top of that we have what the OC models can do)
> I didn't see a highly OC 3090 model like Strix/Aorus hitting 2100MHz (factory clocks) either, so logically it will be at least 43% instead of 33% imo.
> Edit: it's from the article, but the assumptions are wrong imo



I think the main assumption is that users should stop considering and stop the unnecessary purchases of the old generation because something considerably faster is just around the corner.


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## ModEl4 (Jul 4, 2022)

Interesting, according to wccftech the rops in ad102 is 384 (instead of 192 that it would have if the rops was an Ampere derived iteration)
Probably ad102 can do 384 pixel launch-test/cycle and 192 pixel color blends/cycle (not unlike Navi21 which can do 128 pixel launch-test/cycle but only 64 pixel color blends/cycle)


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 4, 2022)

gffermari said:


> I'm thinking of replacing my 2080Ti to 3080Ti/3090. The prices in the second hand market are tempting.
> I believe the 4080 will be 5-10% faster than 3080Ti at best, will be available -practically- at Christmas the soonest and cost about 1000 euros, also practically.
> 
> So, a 3080Ti at that price or lower, doesn't seem a bad idea to me.
> ...


Yeah stick with what you have until the RX7000 arrives



neatfeatguy said:


> Vehicle tabs in MN are stupid pricy when you have a new car because it's based on the value of the car and the age of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have no State Tax here, but there is sales, property, Alcohol, vehicle taxes.

Sales Tax in most major cities is 8.25%


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## Slyr7.62 (Jul 5, 2022)

Thnx for the research ARF, lol. I'm in CA, not Alabama. Indeed VAT & some non-USA prices sure can be wack. Anyways people need to sometiems have more "gumption" and not settle for paying so much just to get certain gpus. Personally I might not go 40 series anyways or concerned w/ 30 series dropping much, but 3-4 months is not very long. --Edit: definitely mainly liking the ATX 3 and 12+4pin setup. Haven't done a single cable since my GTX 660.


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## ravenhold (Jul 5, 2022)

ARF said:


> The problem is a global pricing issue in Europe.
> 
> Newegg lists the 16 GB Radeon RX 6800 XT for 695 dollars incl. shipping: radeon rx 6800 xt | Newegg.com


Then what's wrong with Europe and taxes?


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## AlwaysHope (Jul 5, 2022)

A popular online retailer here in Australia tends to discount AMD cards more than Nvidia. Are they expecting 7000 series sooner than later???


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## ModEl4 (Jul 5, 2022)

In Europe the VAT percentage is the main problem.In some countries is too high and in some it is universal for all the goods.If it was low 5-10% depending the sector it would be fine (e.g. 5% for goods like food etc. up to 10% like Electronics, or even more for Luxury items etc. (lol what's the point to remove the VAT from Electronics when milk, bread has it?)
On top of that, Electronics are mostly produced outside EU with most of the patents also not EU originated so there is absolutely no reason to support with no VAT foreign companies that are not EU originated and does not produce here.
VAT system hits the poor class or the low income class the most since it is applied with the same percentage universally regardless income/financial status etc.
Also in most (if not all) EU countries VAT hits consumers (receipt) not business (invoices) because companies claim the VAT ammount they paid when they do the tax report.
For example if you go to MediaMarkt and buy a PC/Phone/Component etc as consumer you are charged with VAT but if you are a graphic designer or an accountant etc working freelance or if you have a small company and you ask an invoice (implying use for your business) you are not charged with VAT!


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## ppn (Jul 5, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> A popular online retailer here in Australia tends to discount AMD cards more than Nvidia. Are they expecting 7000 series sooner than later???


6900 16GB can't get much cheaper than 7700 8GB soon enough, It's already too late, unless you are desperate. So it fails to be a good idea. 16GB is good, but If it were a memory stick you paid $500 extra for 8GB that you may never need. Same for 3080 Ti 12GB, is 2GB worth the horrific price paid for it. This is why they created 4070 10GB, to make 3080 10GB owners feel less owned. And of course to sway miners away. with that 160 bit bus must be as good as 3060. unless ROPS matter, we have seen 2070 with 40 Mh/s and 3070 60 Mh/s same memory subsystem so it must be doing something 50% better, like 64 to 96 ROPs bump. 4070 with 160 ROps sounds scary.


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## ModEl4 (Jul 5, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> A popular online retailer here in Australia tends to discount AMD cards more than Nvidia. Are they expecting 7000 series sooner than later???
> View attachment 253668


It doesn't make a big difference essentially regarding current pricing status.
Both will be relatively close probably, and there will be price pressure for old models regardless who launches first.
The leaks regarding Nvidia are saying September launch (with maybe October availability on shelves) and AMD won't  launch before Zen4 anyway (September at best according to leaks)
Maybe it will have less gap vs Zen3/RDNA2 (nearly 1.5 month) but if they come with Navi31 first it will be at least +half month from Zen4 (probably 1 month), if they launch Navi33 it can be concurrent with Zen4, but the most profitable scenario by far is to launch with high end and go down from there (just what Nvidia does)
But since they are not the leader and they don't have Nvidia's market share & brand awareness, the logical thing is to wait Nvidia to launch first and set the price status and then respond based on market acceptance/ performance / features/pricing of the competition.
They won't risk giving Nvidia the chance to fix potential pricing strategy errors if RDNA3 launch first, because Nvidia can be very competitive in price if they wish (GTX 1650S vs 5500XT, the forced -$50 drop of 5700/5700XT series etc)
Also what is strange is the recent report that AMD is lowering 6nm capacity, isn't Navi24 and supposedly upcoming Navi33 6nm based according to leaks? In the past it was all about that AMD doesn't have the total 7nm capacity it would need to respond to a price war with Nvidia in order to take away market share from them and it was way more profitable anyway to sell Zen3 CPUs so there was no reason based on market conditions then, now that they have the chance to build 6nm based models they are scaling down their 6nm commitments? (maybe Navi33 isn't 6nm based or they just don't care about disrupting market share status quo and instead they are after higher margins?)


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## Bomby569 (Jul 5, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> A popular online retailer here in Australia tends to discount AMD cards more than Nvidia. Are they expecting 7000 series sooner than later???



AMD cards are historically harder to move, used or new.


----------



## AlwaysHope (Jul 6, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> AMD cards are historically harder to move, used or new.


That's a side effect from a 2 horse race. 1 winner, 1 looser... always.


----------



## ARF (Jul 6, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> That's a side effect from a 2 horse race. 1 winner, 1 looser... always.



Users have no information about what's good and what's not.
JHH enters the stage and says - "it just works" and everyone believes...


----------



## Lei (Jul 6, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> A popular online retailer here in Australia tends to discount AMD cards more than Nvidia. Are they expecting 7000 series sooner than later???
> View attachment 253668


May be they're trying to keep Nvidia rot in their stock. Don't pay a penny for another Ampere, buy used, wait for ada or get AMD.


----------



## ModEl4 (Jul 6, 2022)

Without inflation in Q4 2022 the $499 Nvidia entry parts will be around €549 and if AMD launch Navi33 at $479 then €529 for the entry models, but there will be inflation probably by then driving the prices for the new models up.
In one month from now the prices in Geizhals will probably be around the below level making all the RTX 3080 and below Nvidia cards at around SRP level and the higher end models below SRP and all the AMD cards below or way below SRP, but still it will not be  enticing enough for those willing to wait:

€ 1,699.90 RTX 3090Ti
€ 1,399.90 RTX 3090
€ 1,049.90 RX 6950XT
€ 999.90 RTX 3080Ti
€ 849.90 RX 6900XT
€ 839.90 RTX 3080 12GB
€ 769.90 RTX 3080 10GB
€ 699.90 RX 6800XT
€ 629.90 RTX 3070Ti
€ 619.90 RX 6800
€ 539.90 RTX 3070
€ 539.90 RX 6750XT
€ 459.90 RX 6700XT
€ 449.90 RTX 3060Ti
€ 369.90 RX 6650XT
€ 359.90 RTX 3060
€ 349.90 RX 6600XT
€ 279.90 RX 6600
€ 269.90 RTX 3050
€ 159.90 RX 6500XT
€ 149.90 RX 6400


----------



## mb194dc (Jul 6, 2022)

AMD cards are MSRP in UK now from OCUK.

Will go lower in next 12 months and I expect discounting on next gen too...


----------



## MarsM4N (Jul 6, 2022)

mb194dc said:


> AMD cards are MSRP in UK now from OCUK.



Prices in GER are also falling like crazy. Full stocks. Cheapest RTX 3080 = 848€, RTX 3070 = 598€, RX 6800 XT = 769€ & RX 6800 = 669€.

AMD got the better deals right now. 



mb194dc said:


> Will go lower in next 12 months and I expect discounting on next gen too...



They have to. With the crazy *inflation* it will be very hard to sell overpriced GPU's to broke folks.


----------



## 64K (Jul 6, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> They have to. With the crazy *inflation* it will be very hard to sell overpriced GPU's to broke folks.



Reportedly Nvidia is going to cut orders for 5nm wafers from TSMC because they expect a drop in demand. One way or another they probably plan to keep prices high.









						NVIDIA reportedly wants to cut TSMC orders for next-gen RTX 40 GPUs 5nm wafers amid lower demand - VideoCardz.com
					

TSMC customers want to lower their silicon orders The consumer electronics market is slowing down rapidly. The interest in new TVs, mobile phones and PCS and has declined as quickly as pandemic has ‘ended’ and inflation struck global markets. Both AMD and NVIDIA are revising their TSMC orders...




					videocardz.com
				




AMD will probably cut production as well.


----------



## MarsM4N (Jul 6, 2022)

64K said:


> Reportedly Nvidia is going to cut orders for 5nm wafers from TSMC because they expect a drop in demand. One way or another they probably plan to keep prices high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, the GPU market is oversaturated. And the *Bitcoin plunge* is the cherry on the cake. 

Went down from 47k to 20k since 30th March.


----------



## 80251 (Jul 7, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Yep, the GPU market is oversaturated. And the *Bitcoin plunge* is the cherry on the cake.
> 
> Went down from 47k to 20k since 30th March.


Bitcoin isn't a cryptocurrency primarily mined by GPU's is it?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jul 7, 2022)

80251 said:


> Bitcoin isn't a cryptocurrency primarily mined by GPU's is it?



No, but other cryptos that are tend to follow BTC price trends.


----------



## AlwaysHope (Jul 7, 2022)

Lei said:


> May be they're trying to keep Nvidia rot in their stock. Don't pay a penny for another Ampere, buy used, wait for ada or get AMD.


No, they have Nvidia stock discounted as well, check out for yourself here if your curious, its just that more AMD stock is discounted at this point in time.



64K said:


> Reportedly Nvidia is going to cut orders for 5nm wafers from TSMC because they expect a drop in demand. One way or another they probably plan to keep prices high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A drop in global demand cause' of every increasing inflation & no signs of it getting better unfortunately.


----------



## mb194dc (Jul 7, 2022)

AlwaysHope said:


> No, they have Nvidia stock discounted as well, check out for yourself here if your curious, its just that more AMD stock is discounted at this point in time.
> 
> 
> A drop in global demand cause' of every increasing inflation & no signs of it getting better unfortunately.



This is why it's good to have competition, current gen cards are also good enough for 4k 60 or better. 

Both AMD and Nvidia will struggle for volume in consumer space with next gen nd could lead to cut throat pricing. 2080ti days are long gone...

Going to be a really hard sell to shift 600 to 900w cards for more than current gen sell for...who's the market? Why would I upgrade my 6800xt for example? 

Not even counting used channels getting flooded with cheap ex mining GPUs.


----------



## 64K (Jul 7, 2022)

Lei said:


> View attachment 253965



He sure looks cool in that black leather jacket doesn't he?


----------



## ARF (Jul 7, 2022)

Let's see what she has to offer


----------



## dalekdukesboy (Jul 7, 2022)

64K said:


> He sure looks cool in that black leather jacket doesn't he?


I think he looks like a complete asshole…every time I see him. Not sure totally why but he just looks like a smug dick who wears “cool” leather jackets to fit in with regular “folks” and yet his absurdly ornate kitchen screams I have a trillion billion quadrillion dollars.


----------



## MarsM4N (Jul 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> Let's see what she has to offer



Lisa Sue = *safe bet*.  She basically brought AMD back from the dead.

Plus, she speaks english.


----------



## 64K (Jul 7, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Lisa Sue = *safe bet*.  She basically brought AMD back from the dead.
> 
> Plus, she speaks english.



I have a lot of respect for Lisa Su. She did indeed bring AMD back to a competitive edge with rivals.

Cheers to you sir. I don't meet many people on tech or gaming sites that have any idea just how close AMD came to financial catastrophe. Possibly even bankruptcy before Lisa Su.


----------



## Lei (Jul 8, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Lisa Sue = *safe bet*.  She basically brought AMD back from the dead.
> 
> Plus, she speaks english.


Moved to USA from 台南 at the age of 3. Has MIT PhD.


----------



## anfazi54 (Jul 8, 2022)

i think it will be normal again nbecause some manufacture are making new VGA and the old vga will decreasing the price depends on market / crypto market


----------



## ModEl4 (Jul 11, 2022)

According to VideoCardz article, in China most VGA prices crashed:
https://videocardz.com/newz/gpu-pri...-sold-for-20-under-msrp-flagship-models-at-38
Probably 6400 crashed due to ARC A380 emergence and Nvidia's 3070Ti and above models due the upcoming next-gen launches.
Probably we will have around the below prices in Europe in the next 3-4 weeks?

€ 1,599.90 RTX 3090Ti
€ 1,299.90 RTX 3090
€ 1,049.90 RX 6950XT
€ 979.90 RTX 3080Ti
€ 839.90 RX 6900XT
€ 799.90 RTX 3080 12GB
€ 739.90 RTX 3080 10GB
€ 669.90 RX 6800XT
€ 599.90 RTX 3070Ti
€ 589.90 RX 6800
€ 539.90 RTX 3070
€ 529.90 RX 6750XT
€ 449.90 RX 6700XT
€ 449.90 RTX 3060Ti
€ 369.90 RX 6650XT
€ 359.90 RTX 3060
€ 349.90 RX 6600XT
€ 279.90 RX 6600
€ 269.90 RTX 3050
€ 159.90 RX 6500XT
€ 139.90 RX 6400


----------



## ppn (Jul 11, 2022)

It's 499 for a 3080 12 / 3080 Ti or no deal for me, 699 for the 3090. remember when 2080 Ti owners sold their cards ahead of 3070 launch fearing that it would be too late, turns out it was too soon, we never know. But whats the point of buying a card only to realize 6 months later that it's worth 25% on the sh market and replaced by a new card that is only half the size and power.


----------



## Lei (Jul 11, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> According to VideoCardz article, in China most VGA prices crashed:
> https://videocardz.com/newz/gpu-pri...-sold-for-20-under-msrp-flagship-models-at-38
> Probably 6400 crashed due to ARC A380 emergence and Nvidia's 3070Ti and above models due the upcoming next-gen launches.
> Probably we will have around the below prices in Europe in the next 3-4 weeks?
> ...


3090 is 890$ in second hand market.
May be I should get a used 3090 and upgrade my monitor to 4k instead of waiting for a brand new 4090.
I already put my monitor on sale.



ppn said:


> It's 499 for a 3080 12 / 3080 Ti or no deal for me, 699 for the 3090. remember when 2080 Ti owners sold their cards ahead of 3070 launch fearing that it would be too late, turns out it was too soon, we never know. But whats the point of buying a card only to realize 6 months later that it's worth 25% on the sh market and replaced by a new card that is only half the size and power.


are you sure the prices of used 30-series won't go up after 40 launch?
it's a different time. gamers didn't buy for so long, they will mop the 40-stock and u may not get a 30 as cheap as now if u wait for the next gen


----------



## ModEl4 (Jul 11, 2022)

ppn said:


> It's 499 for a 3080 12 / 3080 Ti or no deal for me. remember when 2080 Ti owners sold their cards ahead of 3070 launch fearing that it would be too late. Everything needs to go lower than 499. Whats the point of buying a card only to realize 6 months later that it's worth 25% on the sh market and replaced by a new card that is only half the size and power.


I'm with you, but isn't $499 for 3080 12GB a little bit too low as a target?
If 3080 12GB goes to $499 in order for the 3080 10GB to be sold it has to be at least $50 cheaper.($449) otherwise everyone will buy the faster and more future proof 12GB version.
With the same logic, then RX6800XT at most $419 (-$30 from 3080), making also the RX6800 around $369(-$50 from 6800XT) and RX6700XT probably at $299 etc..
I really don't think that any next gen part from Nvidia or AMD will offer same value (memory included) at $419/$369/$299 as these above assumptions.



Lei said:


> View attachment 254386
> 
> 
> 3090 is 890$ in second hand market.
> ...


Personally I would wait until the day (or earlier if there is a credible leak) that they announce the next-gen prices to see exactly the SRPs and the official comparison charts and based on my analysis I would then order (same day) an old part if it made sense anyway (the inflation if is going to happen it will probably be after the announcement, since there is still excessive stock according to the reports (lol) and the miners also have a lot of stock) or in case the new cards made more sense (based also on the preorder actual price), I would order an older part (with requested delivery one week after the order) and keep it in the box and also preorder a next-gen part (in most European countries we can return a product within 14days of the receipt) so I would have nearly 3 weeks to decide if to return the previous gen part or not (closed box) in case something goes wrong with the delivery of the next-gen part.
I have never done it so I may be wrong, but based on what happened the last launch and what people went through I think it may be a solution for European buyers.


----------



## Lei (Jul 11, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> Personally I would wait until the day (or earlier if there is a credible leak) that they announce the next-gen prices to see exactly the SRPs and the official comparison charts and based on my analysis I would then order (same day) an old part if it made sense anyway (the inflation if is going to happen it will probably be after the announcement, since there is still excessive stock according to the reports (lol) and the miners also have a lot of stock) or in case the new cards made more sense (based also on the preorder actual price), I would order an older part (with requested delivery one week after the order) and keep it in the box and also preorder a next-gen part (in most European countries we can return a product within 14days of the receipt) so I would have nearly 3 weeks to decide if to return the previous gen part or not (closed box) in case something goes wrong with the delivery of the next-gen part.
> I have never done it so I may be wrong, but based on what happened the last launch and what people went through I think it may be a solution for European buyers.


It's very very unlikely that 4090 will be 1499$ due to different die size. 
I'm negotiating with the 4k monitor guy for some discount, I'm ready to throw my monitor away.
besides, why should I pay for a brand new card when a used one is at 60% of msrp 

 I agree with @Chomiq or @Lenne one of them said it's better to get an old gen blah blah

my unconscious told me this morning : are you sure? but beer and myself tell me do it...._

_



ModEl4 said:


> Personally I would wait until the day (or earlier if there is a credible leak) that they announce....


leaks said 3080Ti will have 20gb vram, lmao. I bet 4080 is gonna have 12gb and 4080Ti no more than 16



ModEl4 said:


> I would then order (same day)



my bots couldn't buy me a 3080Ti 

 even the retailer sent me a lol


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jul 11, 2022)

64K said:


> I have a lot of respect for Lisa Su. She did indeed bring AMD back to a competitive edge with rivals.
> 
> Cheers to you sir. I don't meet many people on tech or gaming sites that have any idea just how close AMD came to financial catastrophe. Possibly even bankruptcy before Lisa Su.



They adapted before that (Console parts)


----------



## ARF (Jul 18, 2022)

Don't buy the old, new is coming. NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 is reportedly 66% faster than RTX 3090 Ti in 3DMark Time Spy Extreme test - VideoCardz.com


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jul 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> Don't buy the old, new is coming. NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 is reportedly 66% faster than RTX 3090 Ti in 3DMark Time Spy Extreme test - VideoCardz.com
> 
> View attachment 255177
> 
> View attachment 255178



They'll be priced to match, though.   And we all know how accurately pre-release synthetic benchmarks predict in-game performance.  That is to say, not at all.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Jul 18, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> They'll be priced to match, though.   And we all know how accurately pre-release synthetic benchmarks predict in-game performance.  That is to say, not at all.



I think that's probably the most fascinating thing about next gen..... How high can Nvidia/AMD price their flagships and get away with it.....

Judging by how fast the 3090ti dropped in price 1500-1600 usd seems to be a limit assuming mining doesn't blow up again shortly after 4000 series releases.

Synthetics are pointless though for sure.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Jul 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> Hungary, for example, has the highest - 27%, Sweden, Norway and Denmark - 25%, Greece, Iceland and Finland - 24%, Portugal - 23%.
> *While Switzerland is the best - 7.7%*. VAT Rates in Europe | Value-Added Tax | European Rankings (taxfoundation.org)


a bit late but ... LOL, maybe we have a low VAT but initial pricing are ~25% higher ...  (otherwise by any logic we should have had lower price than another country with a high VAT instead of same or higher   )
MSRP was a unicorn (until today but only thanks to a discount ... otherwise the 6700 XT i got would have been 650chf instead of 450 )

at launch my 1070 was 544chf (what? MSRP 399? fat chance, +25% it make 498.75chf and the 45.35chf more was for the custom model )

in short pricing made me wait 6yrs since anything that was priced around the same price of the, already overpriced, 1070 were 3050 and RX 6500 XT until today ...

so, yeah current pricing are returning to ... a bit bellow normal when there is a discount.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jul 18, 2022)

GreiverBlade said:


> a bit late but ... LOL, maybe we have a low VAT but initial pricing are ~25% higher ...  (otherwise by any logic we should have had lower price than another country with a high VAT instead of same or higher  )
> MSRP was a unicorn (until today but only thanks to a discount ... otherwise the 6700 XT i got would have been 650chf instead of 450 )
> 
> at launch my 1070 was 544chf (what? MSRP 399? fat chance, +25% it make 498.75chf and the 45.35chf more was for the custom model )
> ...



Switzerland could have 0% VAT and everything would still be stupidly expensive, for a foreigner anyway


----------



## GreiverBlade (Jul 19, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Switzerland could have 0% VAT and everything would still be stupidly expensive, for a foreigner anyway


and for local, like me...  i'm a lifeguard ahah, limite on the poverty threshold most of the months (luckily i worked more than usual the 3 last months  )
i usually always buy budget food/drink, i have no car (i have leasing/tiered payment on computer parts rather  )

thus the price going down is a good thing, now i will only have to wait 3 month to fully pay that card instead of nearly a year


----------



## ARF (Jul 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> They'll be priced to match, though.   And we all know how accurately pre-release synthetic benchmarks predict in-game performance.  That is to say, not at all.



The market won't accept high prices. The demand will crash. There is no longer toxic mining demand anymore and there is no justification anymore for higher pricing.
It may even become possible that the old generation becomes more expensive than the new.

I don't believe that for a second, but I think it can stay as a ballpark: Radeon RX 7600 XT for $400 or less will be faster than RX 6900 XT - Digit News


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> It may even become possible that the old generation becomes more expensive than the new.


Why on earth would that happen?


----------



## GreiverBlade (Jul 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Why on earth would that happen?


the question... would be rather: why not?

inflation mostly (also Nvidia kinda initiated that with founder edition MSRP and "AIB MSRP" that no AIB followed and used FE pricing as base instead  )

since NV and AMD saw that peoples would buy no matter the price, they will keep the mining craze price trend even if there would be no demand related to mining ... you could say it's a bit the fault of the miners  (not blaming them tho  after all it's thanks to them flooding the second hand market recently, that retailer/etailer price got better   )

also the 2070/3070/even the 4070 did/will get priced higher than the previous 1070, 1070: 379$ (my seen price 544chf/$) 2/3070 were 499$ (seen price  above 800chf/$ but that was mining ) previsioned 4070 pricing 500$ (will i see it, if, hopefully there is no mining demand? or will it be again 800chf+? )


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2022)

GreiverBlade said:


> the question... would be rather: why not?


Because assuming the new generation is better naturally the demand will exceed that of the old gen in the same marketplace?  The price may be lower than they want but it makes no sense at all it would be cheaper than the previous gen cards being sold.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Jul 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Because assuming the new generation is better naturally the demand will exceed that of the old gen in the same marketplace?  The price may be lower than they want but it makes no sense at all it would be cheaper than the previous gen cards being sold.


i think we will see higher launch price as the trend showed us, 3/4 gen at a price then 3/4 next gen priced quite higher (from 6XX to 10XX and then 20XX to 30XX/40XX, if the 4070 is really priced 500$ it would only make a 1$ hike over the "499$" of the 2070/3070 )

your reasoning is logical, nonetheless (albeit the price hike seen between the 1070 and 2070, thus the new gen was priced 120$ higher than the previous gen at that time, i blame it on the GTX to RTX shift  )


----------



## ARF (Jul 19, 2022)

The reality can be frustrating.

The 5-year-old Radeon RX 580 costs the equivalent of *232 euros*, while a brand new Radeon RX 6500 XT costs *223 euros*.




AMD Radeon RX 580 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> The reality can be frustrating.
> 
> The 5-year-old Radeon RX 580 costs the equivalent of *232 euros*, while a brand new Radeon RX 6500 XT costs *223 euros*.
> 
> ...


That's most likely due to artificial rarity due to the cards age though.  RTX 3xxx won't be rare at all come ada launch.


----------



## ARF (Jul 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> That's most likely due to artificial rarity due to the cards age though.



It is called scalping and it is seen across all segments - RX 550, RX 560, RX 580, Vega 56, Vega 64, Radeon VII, etc.
It's speculation and it will happen again with RTX 4000 - RTX 3000 and RX 7000 - RX 6000.

It is opposite logic. In order to make you think how "good value" the new generation is...

Why is the RX 6800 XT so terribly priced now when it was supposed to be a much cheaper alternative of the RX 6900 XT?
Because the sellers are idiots!


----------



## Lei (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> Don't buy the old, new is coming. NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 is reportedly 66% faster than RTX 3090 Ti in 3DMark Time Spy Extreme test - VideoCardz.com
> 
> View attachment 255177
> 
> View attachment 255178


Yeah, but a used 3090 is below 1000$ now, while 4090 will be blissfully at least 1500$
The more you wait for used cards, the less gaming and good condition cards will be left in the basket.




R-T-B said:


> but it makes no sense at all it would be cheaper than the previous gen cards being sold.


I think he means Ampere can become more expensive than it's today, but not higher than Ada. 
I kinda agree, customers just have to see the next gen launch until they realize they can't say no to Amepere


----------



## ARF (Jul 19, 2022)

Lei said:


> Yeah, but a used 3090 is below 1000$ now, while 4090 will be blissfully at least 1500$
> The more you wait for used cards, the less gaming and good condition cards will be left in the basket.
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is that a new RTX 4070 will probably be faster than RTX 3090 and cost less.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 19, 2022)

When supply exceeds demand.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> The thing is that a new RTX 4070 will probably be faster than RTX 3090 and cost less.


or it will be priced like a 3090  that would be rich ... but almost not unexpected from Nvidia ... but there would be riots if they did ahah!

i am glad i got a RX 6700 XT at initial reference MSRP launch price, even if next gen will be surpassing every one of them ... i lasted 6yrs with a 1070, that 6700 XT will hold just fine given her performances at 1620p60


----------



## ARF (Jul 19, 2022)

GreiverBlade said:


> or it will be priced like a 3090  that would be rich ... but almost not unexpected from Nvidia ... but there would be riots if they did ahah!



Even in a situation of an unfair market economy dominated by the large corporation, there should be at least a seed of reasoning for that high pricing.
How will nvidia convince the average joe that they must pay now, all of a sudden, a grand for their new graphics cards.
The mining craze is dead now. So why?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jul 19, 2022)

Lei said:


> Yeah, but a used 3090 is below 1000$ now, while 4090 will be blissfully at least 1500$
> The more you wait for used cards, the less gaming and good condition cards will be left in the basket.



Given that new 3090s go for $1300 and ti's for $1.5K, that's very likely.  And unsurprising given the 90-series is the new Titan.



Lei said:


> I think he means Ampere can become more expensive than it's today, but not higher than Ada.
> I kinda agree, customers just have to see the next gen launch until they realize they can't say no to Amepere



Dunno about you, but I can (and did) say no for a pretty long time.  Though I eventually broke down and said "Yes" to a $190 3050...  And if that hadn't happened, I prolly would have cracked when 6600s hit $250.  (New, to be clear.)


----------



## ARF (Jul 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Dunno about you, but I can (and did) say no for a pretty long time.  Though I eventually broke down and said "Yes" to a $190 3050...  And if that hadn't happened, I prolly would have cracked when 6600s hit $250.  (New, to be clear.)



I also say no to the high RX 6800 XT pricing. Tried an RX 560 as a stop gap but it is so terribly slow (actually slower than my notebook's RX 560X), that I eventually threw it away and currently stay without a desktop machine altogether.

Better to stay without a PC, than to be screwed by greedy top management of a foreign corporation, which uses private jets to travel the world over...


----------



## GreiverBlade (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> Even in a situation of an unfair market economy dominated by the large corporation, there should be at least a seed of reasoning for that high pricing.
> How will nvidia convince the average joe that they must pay now, all of a sudden, a grand for their new graphics cards.
> The mining craze is dead now. So why?


yeah i know ... but i call that the "Switzerland syndrome"  as i said, would you like a 544$ 1070?

nah right luckily mining is declining (let's hope 7X00 and 40XX will now awake that plague again )

but still as i mentioned : between the 1070 and 2070, thus the new gen was priced 120$ higher than the previous gen at that time thus if lucky the 40XX will be still in the same price range, or at worse case scenario, the 40XX will get a price hike, they already shown us they would do it ... from 6XX to 10XX and then 20XX to 30XX/40XX, if the 4070 is really priced 500$ it would only make a 1$ hike over the "499$" of the 2070/3070. (if it's not a one time occurence, then it's a trend.)

i should quote ... but, oh well...

anyhow, i did not want to be stuck with my 1070 for 6 more years ... thus once the unicorn was finally found (aka reference MSRP) on one discounted custom model i jumped  (yeah, i'm getting old repeating myself over and over  )


----------



## 64K (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> Even in a situation of an unfair market economy dominated by the large corporation, there should be at least a seed of reasoning for that high pricing.
> How will nvidia convince the average joe that they must pay now, all of a sudden, a grand for their new graphics cards.
> The mining craze is dead now. So why?



The price of Etherium is moving back up slowly. It hovered around $1,100 for a while but now it's back up to $1,500. Far from dead but not close to past levels. As far as mining profitability I have no idea.


----------



## Lei (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> The thing is that a new RTX 4070 will probably be faster than RTX 3090 and cost less.


Of course, after the snow melts this Xmas


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547805136210509824



80-watt Hamster said:


> Given that new 3090s go for $1300 and ti's for $1.5K, that's very likely.  And unsurprising given the 90-series is the new Titan.


U mean 4090 will be 1499$? It won't be a nightmare to me because I already paid for a 4k monitor recently.... But remember 4090 die size is much bigger than 4080 and thus having same msrp of 3090 is highly unlikely. 

Well I'm eyeing on a rog or suprim, preferably used with active backplate watercool. So it's not a 1300$ I'm throwing my lacerating paws at 



64K said:


> The price of Etherium is moving back up slowly. It hovered around $1,100 for a while but now it's back up to $1,500. Far from dead but not close to past levels. As far as mining profitability I have no idea.


If I meet Vitalik Buterin, he'd be removed from the category of living people on Wikipedia. 
I condemn assassination of Shinzo Abe, but I'll make myself famous by putting Vitalik's life to an end. His fish bones are easy to break.


----------



## 64K (Jul 19, 2022)

Lei said:


> If I meet Vitalik Buterin, he'd be removed from the category of living people on Wikipedia.
> I condemn assassination of Shinzo Abe, but I'll make myself famous by putting Vitalik's life to an end. His fish bones are easy to break.



Pretty sure that threatening to kill someone online is a bad idea. You should probably consider editing your post.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> It is called scalping and it is seen across all segments


Scalping only works when demand already exceeds supply.


----------



## Lei (Jul 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Scalping only works when demand already exceeds supply.


Speaking of more demand than supply, makes me want to see how Ada lovelace launch looks like. 
No matter inflation or what price, but the demand


----------



## MarsM4N (Jul 19, 2022)

Lei said:


> Speaking of more demand than supply, makes me want to see how Ada lovelace launch looks like.
> No matter inflation or what price, but the demand



Demand from the _*consumer sheeple*_ will always be there. 

The big factor will be how many have the moneyz to throw out for tech in times of inflation/recession.


----------



## ARF (Jul 20, 2022)

RTX 4090 shows 2.2 times the FPS of RTX 3090. Don't buy the old. Wait the new.

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Graphics Card Allegedly Delivers Over 160 FPS In Control With RT & DLSS at 4K, 2x Performance Gain Over RTX 3090 (wccftech.com)


----------



## The red spirit (Jul 20, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Demand from the _*consumer sheeple*_ will always be there.
> 
> The big factor will be how many have the moneyz to throw out for tech in times of inflation/recession.


It's not necessarily them. Most GPUs end up in OEM machines like Dell, HP. They actually sold at reasonable prices, meanwhile DIY market went completely nuts and jacked up prices to the moon.


----------



## Lei (Jul 20, 2022)

ARF said:


> RTX 4090 shows 2.2 times the FPS of RTX 3090. Don't buy the old. Wait the new.
> 
> NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Graphics Card Allegedly Delivers Over 160 FPS In Control With RT & DLSS at 4K, 2x Performance Gain Over RTX 3090 (wccftech.com)
> 
> View attachment 255374


10 minutes ago an Asus Rog with double layer watercooling was sold at 1015$

Now you're telling me wait 2 more months for a 2000$ 4080
Then in late October I'll be looking at 3090s returning back from the Vietnam war


----------



## ARF (Jul 20, 2022)

Lei said:


> 10 minutes ago an Asus Rog with double layer watercooling was sold at 1015$
> 
> Now you're telling me wait 2 more months for a 2000$ 4080
> Then in late October I'll be looking at 3090s returning back from the Vietnam war



RTX 4080 will be no more than $700-800. 
Don't be so pessimistic


----------



## Lei (Jul 20, 2022)

ARF said:


> RTX 4080 will be no more than $700-800.
> Don't be so pessimistic


I have PhD in AI. Give me all the vram you've got 


16gb vram.... When I buy beer, I don't grab a bottle, I lift the box and walk away


----------



## Blaeza (Jul 20, 2022)

Lei said:


> I have PhD in AI. Give me all the vram you've got
> 
> View attachment 255382
> 16gb vram.... When I buy beer, I don't grab a bottle, I lift the box and walk away


I take the whole distillery. 32GB Vram


----------



## ARF (Jul 20, 2022)

16 GB would suffice.


----------



## ppn (Jul 20, 2022)

4060 8 GB ~ 3070, 70 Ti, 80 - $399
4070 10 GB ~ 3080, 90, 90 Ti - $499

In 9 to 6 months. The most affordable card that can run 4K, the 4050 might take what seems like forever to release since they have to sell the 3060/60 Ti first..


----------



## ARF (Jul 20, 2022)

ppn said:


> 4060 8 GB ~ 3070, 70 Ti, 80 - $399
> 4070 10 GB ~ 3080, 90, 90 Ti - $499



Those memory capacities are bad - the cards will struggle.
We have already seen that RTX 3080 with only 10 GB is a no-go..


----------



## Bomby569 (Jul 20, 2022)

ppn said:


> 4060 8 GB ~ 3070, 70 Ti, 80 - $399
> 4070 10 GB ~ 3080, 90, 90 Ti - $499
> 
> In 9 to 6 months. The most affordable card that can run 4K, the 4050 might take what seems like forever to release since they have to sell the 3060/60 Ti first..



what does that matter, buy whatever equivalent card from the current line up from AMD or NVidia, are you buying performance or the number printed on the cardbox?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Jul 20, 2022)

ARF said:


> RTX 4080 will be no more than $700-800.
> Don't be so pessimistic





ppn said:


> 4060 8 GB ~ 3070, 70 Ti, 80 - $399
> 4070 10 GB ~ 3080, 90, 90 Ti - $499



Launch RRP?  I find that hard to swallow.


----------



## ppn (Jul 20, 2022)

Yes, in those times we get MSRP taxes excluded. Crypto dwindles, supply is abundant. New generation is imminent. What a year to be alive unless covid hits. Just pointing out that possibly 4060 is cheaper than 3070 Ti by a lot $200 at least. In some countries that goes for a monthly salary that you are giving away for what. A penny saved is a penny earned. I have no concerns about 8 GB being enough, details don't have to be maxed to ultra, Normal is just as good in most cases.


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Jul 20, 2022)

Prices are already considered normal here. They were heading towards normal back in March, where I still wished the RX 6600 XT was less than $500-something, but I was able to get it. I wasn't swamped with out-of-stock or not-available messages from e-tailers. 

The meme of '21:

Out of stock error for most video cards or a not-available error message from the e-tailer.

Along with being unable to even get a Ryzen 5 5600X!


----------



## ARF (Jul 22, 2022)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> Prices are already considered normal here. They were heading towards normal back in March, where I still wished the RX 6600 XT was less than $500-something, but I was able to get it. I wasn't swamped with out-of-stock or not-available messages from e-tailers.



I don't see anything normal in the current pricing. Remember that those cards are old already - 2 year-old and counting.

You know that normally such old cards fall well below their original MSRP, which doesn't happen. They are still at around the level or over the original MSRP.


----------



## _JP_ (Jul 22, 2022)

Be advised that right now no brand is competing, we had a bunch of paper launches during the beginning of the lockdowns, if you all recall, and then the current gen was launched to price-match each other.
Crypto dwindling the need for the cards will create anxiety in the investors so both AMD and nVidia (and Intel) will have to keep them happy by assuring that YoY profits will not collapse due to the "normal" fluctuation of the markets post the abnormal period of the pandemic. There was waaay too much money made in the last two years, do not forget that, and humans do not react well to withdrawal from what the feel is great for them (i.e. as an investor, cash flow).
It was proved that Intel can't mine (and somehow managed to make a modern-day i740 with the A380) and unless there's another gimmick coming (looking at Metaverse/AI/ML/NFTs shit) that does nothing for games that barely take advantage of DX12, prices will just stay as they are "just because".
The price wars of 2007-2013 are long gone.


----------



## ARF (Jul 22, 2022)

_JP_ said:


> The price wars of 2007-2013 are long gone.



I don't think anyone demands "price wars".
Price wars was meant to keep AMD afloat when it was the underdog with Radeon HD 3870, and previously the mediocre Radeon HD 2900 XT.
Back then, you could buy the high-end Radeon HD 4890 for as low as $195.

Today, even the crappiest, entry level, shit card Radeon RX 6400 costs as much.


----------



## mouacyk (Jul 22, 2022)

Near msrp 2 years after launch is not normal


----------



## ARF (Jul 23, 2022)

AMD Zen 4 / Ryzen 7000 Series [updated]​
Release Date: Fall 2022, possibly Sep 15 2022
Launched around same time as RDNA3 GPU architecture
Upcoming Hardware Launches 2022 (Updated Jul 2022) | TechPowerUp


----------



## _JP_ (Jul 25, 2022)

ARF said:


> I don't think anyone demands "price wars".
> Price wars was meant to keep AMD afloat when it was the underdog with Radeon HD 3870, and previously the mediocre Radeon HD 2900 XT.
> Back then, you could buy the high-end Radeon HD 4890 for as low as $195.
> 
> Today, even the crappiest, entry level, shit card Radeon RX 6400 costs as much.


Undercutting the price of a competitor provides long-term market-share but above all, benefits the consumer. I think all consumers demand it otherwise it wouldn't be so common for things like vouchers and "on sale" (now every freaking day, because that's what we now call normal price fluctuations) to exist and being sought after.

The HD 4890 was not released at $195, more like +$250, and went as low as that price you mentioned by the time the HD5870 was already around, which launched at the same price-point. Hence, you had numerous rebrands of the G92 core for nVidia and only dual-chip cards rose above the $400-mark. Things were kept "sane" between the $250 ~$350 price levels.
It's when the GTX980 (above $500 in some variants, nevermind the "Ti"s) and later, the R9 390X (something like +$400) came about that things got stupid, because suddenly there was no justification to make below-$100 cards since iGPUs were carving that market so there was an excuse to "bump" the market segments by an order of two. "Your new entry model is now $150. Deal with it. But we still sell that very desktop-rendering-capable chip (insert rebrand #11 of the HD4370 and the _Vista Certified™_ GT 8400 GS)".
AIBs made it worse with the special versions that had that mindblowing 5~15MHz crazy extreme OC tuning (/s), but charged you anything between $25 to $75 more on top of an already expensive chip, even though cost-cutting was already there, since it was no longer a reference card. What followed that was the crypto boom and subsequent first major shortage of GPUs.
Nobody asked for that, but instead for the market to exist as it could and did until that point.


----------



## Morgoth (Jul 25, 2022)

back in the day i bought a sapphire 1950 pro AGP brand new for 150 euro that was a pre order and droped in price to 100 on launch... those where some prices


----------



## HD64G (Jul 25, 2022)

The GPU prices for the present X60 and X70 models will be forced to drastically decrease once the next gen launches or after 1-2 months, once availability will become normal. And then it will be a good time to buy if interested for those performance tiers. The higher performance tiers that are for 4K high settings will remain high no matter what. My 5c.


----------



## Lei (Aug 1, 2022)

So here comes the report for July 31st:

ETH profitability and price going up. Could we see 85% msrp for nvidia in 3 weeks?
nvidia geforce twitter posted an ultimate countdown on August 10 2020. This time their company is 23 years old  






source link


----------



## _JP_ (Aug 8, 2022)

Honestly, over here, the market is still riding some kind of wave because the cards are not below MSRP yet.
Sure, the prices did drop, but I wouldn't say even a peg.
Considering "middle-range", cards that have trackers over 10+ stores and closest to not be a "Special OC version":
PowerColor RX 6700 XT Fighter



MSI RTX 3060 TI VENTUS




Black line is avg. and the orange line is the lowest price at the given dates.
MSRP would be below the €499 for these two, more like €399 for the nVidia and €449 for the Radeon, according to what I could gather.
EDIT: Sure, VAT here is 23% so there is always some pricing over the nominal value but before the hikes it was not that much, usually 5~10% more.


----------



## Lei (Aug 8, 2022)

_JP_ said:


> Honestly, over here, the market is still riding some kind of wave because the cards are not below MSRP yet.
> Sure, the prices did drop, but I wouldn't say even a peg.
> Considering "middle-range", cards that have trackers over 10+ stores and closest to not be a "Special OC version":
> PowerColor RX 6700 XT Fighter
> ...


thanks for the graphs.

I got a used 3090 on August 4th. It comes with double layer watercooling. cost me 1020$ including the blocks. 
Seller said the block was never used. Seems true since it was sealed and clean as lemon. He said the card was used for half an hour. Can trust him:





Temps at 4k stress:





Could also OC to Board Power Draw of about 404 watts
Seller even forgot to put thermal paste under the waterblock. So When I received it, the GPU was idling at 70°. But that proves he never used it


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 15, 2022)

Milestone achieved.





Caveat:  Only Newegg has this pricing, and only with rebate.  But I'd said earlier that "normal" could be considered 6[XX]-series performance for USD250, and here we (sort of) are.  If I hadn't already scored a deal on a 3050, one of these would probably be inbound (probably the Sapphire; there's another $10 discount available).  Though that's not preventing me from seriously considering throwing out a lowball offer for a $200 2060 KO on CL.


----------



## ppn (Aug 15, 2022)

Can't settle for less than a 6800., currently at 599, but 2 years later 299 should be the new norm, in 2 just months. it's normal, but also double.
so waiting for the 7800 it is.


----------



## P4-630 (Aug 15, 2022)

ppn said:


> so waiting for the 7800 it is.


Or RTX 4070...  Because it just works!


----------



## Valantar (Aug 15, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Or RTX 4070...  Because it just works!


Lol, so do AMD GPUs. Stop regurgitating nonsense, please. Do their drivers run problem free 100% of the time? Obviously not, but neither do Nvidia's. AMD GPUs being difficult, problematic, unstable etc. is a myth that does nothing but harm consumers and should have died long ago.

(just to preempt the most obvious response: yes, the 5700 XT had (has?) severe issues, which were surprisingly widespread but still only affected a small percentage of users (still too high, obviously), and has not been positively identified to be a pure driver issue. It is also the only AMD GPU to have had such issues in ages, with it being one example against dozens and dozens of examples of perfectly working models - and it's not like Nvidia has never fucked up a design either.)


----------



## SOAREVERSOR (Aug 16, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Lol, so do AMD GPUs. Stop regurgitating nonsense, please. Do their drivers run problem free 100% of the time? Obviously not, but neither do Nvidia's. AMD GPUs being difficult, problematic, unstable etc. is a myth that does nothing but harm consumers and should have died long ago.
> 
> (just to preempt the most obvious response: yes, the 5700 XT had (has?) severe issues, which were surprisingly widespread but still only affected a small percentage of users (still too high, obviously), and has not been positively identified to be a pure driver issue. It is also the only AMD GPU to have had such issues in ages, with it being one example against dozens and dozens of examples of perfectly working models - and it's not like Nvidia has never fucked up a design either.)



Once burned twice shy.  The issue is AMD/Raedeon has had issues all over the place on chipsets and GPUs.  At the "enthusiast" level which is now more "RGB land, where is my RGB, why does my closed loop not have RGB, I need that RGB" this does not matter but at the enterprize level you simply don't buy their products, it will cost you a job sooner or later.  Sure, they can make a SOC for a gaming system but at the large scale they are LOL.  That's why they have a nasty reputation.  It's no go, period.  Yeah every now and then they come out with a product that is crazy enough to risk the risk, but mostly might as well not exist.

AMD is shit for quality control in the big leagues.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 16, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> Once burned twice shy.  The issue is AMD/Raedeon has had issues all over the place on chipsets and GPUs.  At the "enthusiast" level which is now more "RGB land, where is my RGB, why does my closed loop not have RGB, I need that RGB" this does not matter but at the enterprize level you simply don't buy their products, it will cost you a job sooner or later.  Sure, they can make a SOC for a gaming system but at the large scale they are LOL.  That's why they have a nasty reputation.  It's no go, period.  Yeah every now and then they come out with a product that is crazy enough to risk the risk, but mostly might as well not exist.
> 
> AMD is shit for quality control in the big leagues.


That's the thing: the business world is _slow_, and reputations - deserved or not - are hard to shake, regardless of how long it has been since they were relevant. AMD _has_ had problems. Do they have more than Intel today? Probably a bit more, yes, as they simply have less experience operating at that scale. Enough for it to matter at that type of scale? No. I mean, once again, you're making it out as if Intel (or Nivida, depending on the segment we're talking about) have a sterling reputation for being problem free and only offering smooth sailing, as if Intel hasn't seen a half-dozen security fixes with significant performance effects, various hardware bugs on shipping chips, etc. Things vary, but a reputation that has cemented itself is hard to shake, and that's what we're seeing.


----------



## Lei (Aug 16, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> Once burned twice shy.  The issue is AMD/Raedeon has had issues all over the place on chipsets and GPUs.  At the "enthusiast" level which is now more "RGB land, where is my RGB, why does my closed loop not have RGB, I need that RGB" this does not matter but at the enterprize level you simply don't buy their products, it will cost you a job sooner or later.  Sure, they can make a SOC for a gaming system but at the large scale they are LOL.  That's why they have a nasty reputation.  It's no go, period.  Yeah every now and then they come out with a product that is crazy enough to risk the risk, but mostly might as well not exist.
> 
> AMD is shit for quality control in the big leagues.


On a side note:
Where do we plug the RGB cable 

 mine has one hanging there.
Where should I plug the RGB cable into?


----------



## pcwolf (Aug 16, 2022)

So ... does TPU have a For Sale forum where I can hawk my slightly used retail box video cards?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 16, 2022)

pcwolf said:


> So ... does TPU have a For Sale forum where I can hawk my slightly used retail box video cards?



Yup.


----------



## claes (Aug 16, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> Once burned twice shy.  The issue is AMD/Raedeon has had issues all over the place on chipsets and GPUs.  At the "enthusiast" level which is now more "RGB land, where is my RGB, why does my closed loop not have RGB, I need that RGB" this does not matter but at the enterprize level you simply don't buy their products, it will cost you a job sooner or later.  Sure, they can make a SOC for a gaming system but at the large scale they are LOL.  That's why they have a nasty reputation.  It's no go, period.  Yeah every now and then they come out with a product that is crazy enough to risk the risk, but mostly might as well not exist.
> 
> AMD is shit for quality control in the big leagues.


I don’t think this is true, especially since Epyc. AMD has been seeing huge yoy increases in server sales, even with supply issues, while Intel’s share has been decreasing. From what I know the only reason that Intel had the server/HPC market locked was because they were faster, not more reliable.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Aug 17, 2022)

claes said:


> I don’t think this is true, especially since Epyc. AMD has been seeing huge yoy increases in server sales, even with supply issues, while Intel’s share has been decreasing. From what I know the only reason that Intel had the server/HPC market locked was because they were faster, not more reliable.


Agree. AMD's CPU market has no issues with reliability, at least in the enterprise market. 

I have a old R7 450 in my work computer - no issues*. I have a laptop with a Maxwell Quadro and it is impossible to update drivers unless Windows sees fit. Anecdotal, yes, but AMD consumer drivers have given me less issues than Nvidia Enterprise drivers.

*Ok, one issue but that was my fault.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 17, 2022)

It's also worth pointing out that up until the past few years - maybe as little as two - there were _significant_ differences in the engineering and product design efforts and quality put into Intel and AMD products by OEMs, for a variety of reasons. From platform familiarity (and thus ease of tuning/tweaking/troubleshooting) to Intel having a cemented reputation as "the premium brand" (and AMD as "the budget brand") to Intel paying for exclusivity in more premium form factors in various ways (which AMD through their recent growth and no longer being on the verge of bankruptcy are able to better match or respond to), to a bunch of other stuff. When one brand is only found in cheap, bargain-level, "value" products and the other is found across a wide range, including high-effort, high-cost, "premium" products, it's a given that the latter will get a better reputation for both performance and quality - unless they _really_ mess up, that is.


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Or RTX 4070...  Because it just works!



No, AMD Radeon gives better image quality.

But the prices will not go back to normal, will they? 

As of August 16, 2022:
Radeon RX 6400 - 168.82 euro
Radeon RX 6500 XT - 169.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 - 294.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 XT - 394.13 euro
Radeon RX 6650 XT - 402.34 euro
Radeon RX 6700 XT - 479.90 euro
Radeon RX 6750 XT - 549.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 - 639.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 XT - 769.00 euro
Radeon RX 6900 XT - 929.00 euro
Radeon RX 6950 XT - 1181.50 euro




AMD Radeon RX 5600 XT Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database





ASRock Radeon RX 5600XT Phantom Gaming 2 OC 6 GB OC Mid Range Grafikkarte kaufen (computeruniverse.net)


----------



## mechtech (Aug 18, 2022)

I am really starting to wonder if anything purchased new will ever return to pre-pandemic prices….


----------



## P4-630 (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> No, AMD Radeon gives better image quality.


That's what I said always 16 years ago, I only bought ATi back then, but since 2010 only bought Nvidia.


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> That's what I said always 16 years ago, I only bought ATi back then, but since 2010 only bought Nvidia.



What changed in 2010?


----------



## P4-630 (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> What changed in 2010?


No more desktop for a while only laptops and they had Nvidia graphics, then in 2016 I built a desktop again and at that year Pascal just came out and that seemed the better choice back then and got a GTX 1070.   Then got myself a G-Sync monitor, and since then kinda stuck with Nvidia.
My last ATi GPU was a HIS 4870 in 2010, I gave my dad my socket 775 desktop and he's been using it since then.
The HIS 4870 died last year in 2021 iirc and then my dad bought a cheap Nvidia GPU for display output.


----------



## r9 (Aug 18, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> Once burned twice shy.  The issue is AMD/Raedeon has had issues all over the place on chipsets and GPUs.  At the "enthusiast" level which is now more "RGB land, where is my RGB, why does my closed loop not have RGB, I need that RGB" this does not matter but at the enterprize level you simply don't buy their products, it will cost you a job sooner or later.  Sure, they can make a SOC for a gaming system but at the large scale they are LOL.  That's why they have a nasty reputation.  It's no go, period.  Yeah every now and then they come out with a product that is crazy enough to risk the risk, but mostly might as well not exist.
> 
> AMD is shit for quality control in the big leagues.


I think we've must have watched a different movie.

On the price thing we the consumers are what drives the pricing full stop period. 
AMD and NVIDIA can ask $5k for entry level GPUs if they want but if they get it it's all on us. 
If we can take anything from the shortage is that people have more money than common sense.
Anybody complaining about the pricing but reached in their wallet and paid the scalper price it's on you brother.
Food and water are necessities GPUs are not.


----------



## AnotherReader (Aug 18, 2022)

AMD's GPUs from the RX 6600 to the 6700 XT are now below MSRP for some models in Canada. However, Nvidia's equivalents, with the exception of the 3060 Ti, are still overpriced. Compare the 3060 to the 6600 XT:









Even the 3050 is overpriced compared to the significantly faster RX 6600:


----------



## tussinman (Aug 18, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> AMD's GPUs from the RX 6600 to the 6700 XT are now below MSRP for some models in Canada. However, Nvidia's equivalents, with the exception of the 3060 Ti, are still overpriced. Compare the 3060 to the 6600 XT:


It's the same in the US. 

RTX 3050 (which is like the same performance as a 2016 era GTX 1070) is currently selling for the same price as the 6600XT which is a joke. 

EVGA (whose supposedly claiming that they sell directly through there website at MSRP prices) is currently selling the 3060 non-ti (aka a 4 year old RTX  2070) for such an inflated price that the RX 6700 is currently only $35 more dollars........


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

r9 said:


> I think we've must have watched a different movie.
> 
> On the price thing we the consumers are what drives the pricing full stop period.
> AMD and NVIDIA can ask $5k for entry level GPUs if they want but if they get it it's all on us.
> ...



Yes, that is the reason why the PC market is in the worst condition in decades and probably will continue to shrink.

*Nvidia’s gaming graphics card sales are down 44% compared to last quarter* Nvidia GPU sales are dropping fast – and price tags could well follow | TechRadar


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 18, 2022)

tussinman said:


> It's the same in the US.
> 
> RTX 3050 (which is like the same performance as a 2016 era GTX 1070) is currently selling for the same price as the 6600XT which is a joke.
> 
> EVGA (whose supposedly claiming that they sell directly through there website at MSRP prices) is currently selling the 3060 non-ti (aka a 4 year old RTX  2070) for such an inflated price that the RX 6700 is currently only $35 more dollars........



EVGA's lost most of the good will they'd built up with me over the course of the last couple of years.  On the one hand, I get it; if folks are paying 150% or more of list for your goods, it's a bit mad to say, "No thanks, I don't really want more money."  It's the B-stock pricing that currently gets my goat.  $200-240 for a _refurb_ 1060 in 2022? WTAF?


----------



## AnotherReader (Aug 18, 2022)

tussinman said:


> It's the same in the US.
> 
> RTX 3050 (which is like the same performance as a 2016 era GTX 1070) is currently selling for the same price as the 6600XT which is a joke.
> 
> EVGA (whose supposedly claiming that they sell directly through there website at MSRP prices) is currently selling the 3060 non-ti (aka a 4 year old RTX  2070) for such an inflated price that the RX 6700 is currently only $35 more dollars........


I think Nvidia is still trying to sell its chips at high prices; that is why we see ridiculous situations like the 3050 being priced almost the same as a 6600 XT. The 6600 XT is a full chip on a more expensive process so the 3050 should be cheaper to build. Even if it isn't, they should sell it for significantly less than the 6600, never mind the 6600 XT.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Aug 18, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> I think Nvidia is still trying to sell its chips at high prices; that is why we see ridiculous situations like the 3050 being priced almost the same as a 6600 XT. The 6600 XT is a full chip on a more expensive process so the 3050 should be cheaper to build. Even if it isn't, they should sell it for significantly less than the 6600, never mind the 6600 XT.



I think this mostly still just comes down to mindshare in the semi affordable 200-400 price ranges... People will still go Nvidia over AMD even at a large discount..... If 3050s/3060/3060ti were just sitting on shelves their prices would drop. The casual buyer who doesn't get on review sites still probably thinks a 3050 is better than a 6600.


----------



## AnotherReader (Aug 18, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> I think this mostly still just comes down to mindshare in the semi affordable 200-400 price ranges... People will still go Nvidia over AMD even at a large discount..... If 3050s/3060/3060ti were just sitting on shelves their prices would drop. The casual buyer who doesn't get on review sites still probably thinks a 3050 is better than a 6600.


That's the most likely explanation. It's still maddening that the 3050 is almost the same price as the far superior 6600 XT.


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> That's the most likely explanation. It's still maddening that the 3050 is almost the same price as the far superior 6600 XT.



The RX 6600 XT is still heavily overpriced. So, maybe the logic behind the purchase is - if both are still heavily overpriced, then we will go the nvidia route, anyways and regardless of the small price difference.


----------



## Lei (Aug 18, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> That's the most likely explanation. It's still maddening that the 3050 is almost the same price as the far superior 6600 XT.


I kinda think: unless u want ur gpu for machine learning, content creation or ray tracing, why get an Nvidia.
So why get a 3050?
Even Nvidia is saying go for AMD with the pricing

Nvidia be like: why guys are buying 3050? Are they nuts


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

Lei said:


> I kinda think: unless u want ur gpu for machine learning, content creation or ray tracing, why get an Nvidia.
> So why get a 3050?
> Even Nvidia is saying go for AMD with the pricing
> 
> Nvidia be like: why guys are buying 3050? Are they nuts



Probably because have no choice - the OEM vendors work mostly and exclusively with nvidia, so the 3050 is probably the most popular notebook GPU out there...


----------



## tussinman (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> *The RX 6600 XT is still heavily overpriced. *So, maybe the logic behind the purchase is - if both are still heavily overpriced, then we will go the nvidia route, anyways and regardless of the small price difference.


It's not really that overpriced, at least not in my area.

My local brick n motar had 2 models of the XT at $300, a 3rd model on sale for $280, and a 4th model open box for $265. Even in a more healthy market the 6600XT really wouldn't go for much lower than that ($280 regular and maybe $260 on sale would realisitically be the absolute bottom )

In a more normal market a RTX 3050 and 3060 even at 10% lower then the real MSRP wouldn't be competitive enough to force a signficant 6600XT price cut at it's current price and the sub $350 lovelace/rdna 3 GPUs are mostly likely at least still 6-7 months away (and that's assuming both companies even have the desire to actually release a sub $350 card).


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

tussinman said:


> It's not really that overpriced, at least not in my area.
> 
> My local brick n motar had 2 models of the XT at $300, a 3rd model on sale for $280, and a 4th model open box for $265. Even in a more healthy market the 6600XT really wouldn't go for much lower than that ($280 regular and maybe $260 on sale would realisitically be the absolute bottom )
> 
> In a more normal market a RTX 3050 and 3060 even at 10% lower then the real MSRP wouldn't be competitive enough to force a signficant 6600XT price cut at it's current price and the sub $350 lovelace/rdna 3 GPUs are mostly likely at least still 6-7 months away (and that's assuming both companies even have the desire to actually release a sub $350 card).



Well, this is historically the 179-229$ price range, while it's currently sold for as much as 400 euros here in Europe.
Its real price and value is not higher than 200 euros, no matter how you look at it.
2-year-old RDNA 2 architecture, seriously lower GPU sales, a brand new generation just around the corner, you name it...


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> Well, this is historically the 179-229$ price range, while it's currently sold for as much as 400 euros here in Europe.
> Its real price and value is not higher than 200 euros, no matter how you look at it.
> 2-year-old RDNA 2 architecture, seriously lower GPU sales, a brand new generation just around the corner, you name it...



60 tier gpu haven't launched at under 250 usd
since 2016. The 480/580 was amd original competitors.

During the Turing/RDNA1 generation
They've started at $300 anyone thinking they will ever be 229 or cheaper again is smoking some good $h!+


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> 60 tier gpu haven't launched at under 250 usd
> since 2016. The 480/580 was amd original competitors.
> 
> During the Turing/RDNA1 generation
> They've started at $300 anyone thinking they will ever be 229 or cheaper again is smoking aome good $h!+



I don't understand why I have to pay $300 for this piece of junk 




AMD Radeon RX 560 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database




NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database


----------



## Valantar (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> I don't understand why I have to pay $300 for this piece of junk


What are you talking about? The RX 560 is long discontinued, and was never a true 60 tier GPU - AMD just shifted their naming for Polaris to make their lack of high end options seem less glaring. The RX 480/580 were AMD's 60 tier GPUs back then, and the RX 6600 non-xt is today's option. The RX 6600 is also decidedly not a piece of junk - it performs very well in pretty much any metric.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 18, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> 60 tier gpu haven't launched at under 250 usd
> since 2016. The 480/580 was amd original competitors.
> 
> During the Turing/RDNA1 generation
> They've started at $300 anyone thinking they will ever be 229 or cheaper again is smoking aome good $h!+



Let's ignore numbering for the moment, cuz let's be honest; there's a significant arbitrary component to that.  I'm going to focus on perf/$, specifically Polaris because that stood as the champ in that regard for what, five years?  RX 480 launched at $229 in 2016.  Six years later, we should have something at about the same price point with _at least_ 150% of the performance.  Some would argue that it should be double.  The closest thing to +50% in current gen products is the 3050.  That was _supposed_ to hit $250, but it's still hovering north of $300 as of this post.  Next closest is the RX 6600.  Now we're starting to see something more like one would expect.  The TPU database performance estimate puts it at +80% vs. the 480, and it's currently selling for ~$260.  In light of the crypto hangover, inflation and everything else that's been going on the past couple of years, that almost seems reasonable.  If the ASP of the 6600 can reach and hold at $250 or less _and_ the 3050 starts selling for under that, "normality" could be considered to be achieved. The recent talk of oversupply makes me cautiously optimistic that it could happen.


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

Valantar said:


> What are you talking about? The RX 560 is long discontinued, and was never a true 60 tier GPU - AMD just shifted their naming for Polaris to make their lack of high end options seem less glaring. The RX 480/580 were AMD's 60 tier GPUs back then, and the RX 6600 non-xt is today's option. The RX 6600 is also decidedly not a piece of junk - it performs very well in pretty much any metric.



It is.




MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X Review - Control | TechPowerUp




MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X Review - Cyberpunk 2077 | TechPowerUp

Before you respond, just to clarify - I don't work with or consider anything below 4K.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> Before you respond, just to clarify - I don't work with or consider anything below 4K.



Then why do you even care what's going on at the 6[XX] level?  No card in that segment has ever been able to handle 4K60 at high+ settings.  AFAIK.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> Yes, that is the reason why the PC market is in the worst condition in decades and probably will continue to shrink.
> 
> *Nvidia’s gaming graphics card sales are down 44% compared to last quarter* Nvidia GPU sales are dropping fast – and price tags could well follow | TechRadar



That's because the bulk of GeForce cards were being sold to miners, not gamers, and Jensen's had his accountants hiding that fact. He's already having to answer to regulatory agencies for that one. With cryptomining becoming unprofitable in 95% of cases after the gigantic slump in value coupled with rising energy prices, it's no wonder that sales have slowed down. You'll find a similar, perhaps not as acute drop in AMD GPU sales.

There's the one thing to consider: the economy is going sour, and this is a worldwide phenomenon. Not to go into politics, but, yeah. I just hope that the RDNA 3 cards arrive at a reasonable MSRP, because I can't put down $1500 on a GPU again. I managed to get the 3090 through sheer luck and because someone bought my Radeon VII for a lot of dough.


----------



## ARF (Aug 18, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> That's because the bulk of GeForce cards were being sold to miners, not gamers, and Jensen's had his accountants hiding that fact. He's already having to answer to regulatory agencies for that one. With cryptomining becoming unprofitable in 95% of cases after the gigantic slump in value coupled with rising energy prices, it's no wonder that sales have slowed down. You'll find a similar, perhaps not as acute drop in AMD GPU sales.
> 
> There's the one thing to consider: the economy is going sour, and this is a worldwide phenomenon. Not to go into politics, but, yeah. I just hope that the RDNA 3 cards arrive at a reasonable MSRP, because I can't put down $1500 on a GPU again. I managed to get the 3090 through sheer luck and because someone bought my Radeon VII for a lot of dough.



The problem is definitely not just in the politics but also terrible management and bad decision making.

You don't need another halo card every generation. Live with that for a few more years.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> The problem is definitely not just in the politics but also terrible management and bad decision making.
> 
> You don't need another halo card every generation. Live with that for a few more years.



I play at 4K, and I intend to move to a 120Hz OLED soon, so 4K120 is something outside of the RTX 3090's reach. I can live without upgrading the rest of my rig for some time, but the new GPU + the periodic rebuild on a new case with new peripherals, fans etc. is going to proceed on time.


----------



## tussinman (Aug 18, 2022)

ARF said:


> *Its real price and value is not higher than 200 euros, no matter how you look at it.*


Yeah that' hasn't been true for a very long time. 200 euros is fantasy talk. 

The 2060 Super for example (midrange x60 tier, wasn't much faster than the regular 2060) sold for 400 euro back in 2019 and that was back when inflation and tariffs where 20-25% less than what they are now....... 


oxrufiioxo said:


> 60 tier gpu haven't launched at under 250 usd
> since 2016. The 480/580 was amd original competitors.
> 
> During the Turing/RDNA1 generation
> They've started at $300 anyone thinking they will ever be 229 or cheaper again is smoking some good $h!+


Yeah I don't understand what he is talking about. Even the 5600XT with all of it's drivers issues still sold for like 330-350 euros during it's originally run 


ARF said:


> Well, this is historically the 179-229$ price range


2060, 2060 super, and 3060 all sold for around 400 euros at launch. Even the 5600XT with it's drivers issue trended close to mid 300 euro for most of it's run. RX 6600 was like 400 euro MSRP with the XT variant being 479. 

Last half decade is not showing $179-229, it's time to get with the times


----------



## Valantar (Aug 18, 2022)

tussinman said:


> The 2060 Super for example (midrange x60 tier, wasn't much faster than the regular 2060)


While I mostly agree with you overall, Pascal was a generation dominated by a stretching and shifting of product segments - with the "60 tier" stretching into not one, not two, but ... four? five? GPUs? The RTX-GTX split ensured that, with the sudden appearance of 1660, 1660 Ti, 1660 Super, 2060, and 2060 Super. And arguably a sixth with the 2060 12GB, though that was much later. The 1660 slotted in at the traditional "60-tier" price level, while the 2060 was the one everyone actually noticed, as it was presented as _far_ more attractive (and performed much better despite nominally sharing a tier). So things got confusing real fast there. One would think Ampere would smooth that out with GTX cards disappearing, but it sure doesn't seem that way.



ARF said:


> It is.
> 
> View attachment 258577
> MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X Review - Control | TechPowerUp
> ...


so ... why are you even looking at these GPUs at all? Nothing even close to these price points can perform well at 2160p Ultra, so ... so what? Even the 3070 and 2080 Ti do less than 30fps in the Cyberpunk test, ffs. This is the most ridiculous objection I've seen in quite a while.


----------



## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> so ... why are you even looking at these GPUs at all? Nothing even close to these price points can perform well at 2160p Ultra, so ... so what? Even the 3070 and 2080 Ti do less than 30fps in the Cyberpunk test, ffs. This is the most ridiculous objection I've seen in quite a while.



I am not looking at them - you brought them in the discussion.

The 6800 XT is double the performance of 6600.


----------



## SpittinFax (Aug 19, 2022)

Very disappointed by Nvidia in all this, their prices are still ridiculous after stabilizing. I took a gamble on the RX6600 back in May and was expecting Nvidia cards of that tier to continue dropping in price. Actually they've hardly budged since then and the RTX 3050 is still more expensive than what I paid THREE MONTHS ago for the RX6600. I really hope RDNA3 bites Nvidia in the ass.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> I am not looking at them - you brought them in the discussion.
> 
> The 6800 XT is double the performance of 6600.


Uhm... Your memory seems to be failing. Someone compared its value to the RTX 3050, after which you jumped in with "it's still terrible value", which you "argued for" by quiting some silly 2160p benchmarks.

Also, the 6800 XT is more than double the price of the 6600. So, if it's more than double the price, for double the performance, that's actually worse value, no?


----------



## tussinman (Aug 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> While I mostly agree with you overall, Pascal was a generation dominated by a stretching and shifting of product segments - with the "60 tier" stretching into not one, not two, but ... four? five? GPUs? *The RTX-GTX split ensured that, with the sudden appearance of 1660, 1660 Ti, 1660 Super*, 2060, and 2060 Super. And arguably a sixth with the 2060 12GB, though that was much later. The 1660 slotted in at the traditional "60-tier" price level, while the 2060 was the one everyone actually noticed, as it was presented as _far_ more attractive (and performed much better despite nominally sharing a tier). So things got confusing real fast there. One would think Ampere would smooth that out with GTX cards disappearing, but it sure doesn't seem that way.


Yeah to be 100% honest I completely forgot those cards even existed. Those cards though where still 300-350 euro range at launch so that's way off from the "179-229$ price range" and "should cost no more than 200" nonsense he's spouting


----------



## pcwolf (Aug 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Yup.


And where would that be?


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## cvaldes (Aug 19, 2022)

pcwolf said:


> And where would that be?


"Yup" is a hyperlink. Go ahead, click it.


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## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Uhm... Your memory seems to be failing. Someone compared its value to the RTX 3050, after which you jumped in with "it's still terrible value", which you "argued for" by quiting some silly 2160p benchmarks.
> 
> Also, the 6800 XT is more than double the price of the 6600. So, if it's more than double the price, for double the performance, that's actually worse value, no?



The 6800 XT is a better value. The 6600 is a piece of junk because it's also a badly designed product, and its price makes the things much worse.








AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT Review - NVIDIA is in Trouble - Control | TechPowerUp
MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X Review - Control | TechPowerUp


----------



## claes (Aug 19, 2022)

You’re a halo user. The market isn’t there yet. The vast (vaaaaaast) majority of users don’t play at 4K and, even if they did, _all_ GPUs are garbage (and that’s not entirely true, as you get much better performance margins, according to reviews, with their caveats, with more expensive products). All of your claims about the economics underlying the actual limits of technology for your xxxtreme requirements don’t have any actual foundations in how the economy is organized. You are designed to be to fucked by the market. _That’s_ consumer choice.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> The 6800 XT is a better value. The 6600 is a piece of junk because it's also a badly designed product, and its price makes the things much worse.
> 
> View attachment 258602
> View attachment 258603
> ...


You seem awfully fond of using Control as an illustration, why might that be? Oh, right, it's a major outlier that greatly exaggerates the performance difference between these two GPUs. Go figure. What you're saying here is pure nonsense. The 6600 is much better value than the 6800 XT.


----------



## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

claes said:


> You’re a halo user. The market isn’t there yet. The vast (vaaaaaast) majority of users don’t play at 4K and, even if they did, _all_ GPUs are garbage (and that’s not entirely true, as you get much better performance margins, according to reviews, with their caveats, with more expensive products). All of your claims about the economics underlying the actual limits of technology for your xxxtreme requirements don’t have any actual foundations in how the economy is organized. You are designed to be to fucked by the market. _That’s_ consumer choice.



That's not true. Every card above the Radeon RX 6800, including the XT, 6900 XT and 6950 XT, not to mention the new generation which is due in several weeks do perfectly fine support 4K gaming.
It's just that the 6600/XT is heavily limited, be it low VRAM, low shaders performance, low PCIe bandwidth, etc...


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## Valantar (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> That's not true. Every card above the Radeon RX 6800, including the XT, 6900 XT and 6950 XT, not to mention the new generation which is due in several weeks do perfectly fine support 4K gaming.
> It's just that the 6600/XT is heavily limited, be it low VRAM, low shaders performance, low PCIe bandwidth, etc...


... or, maybe, it's the entirely common and normal fact that as you step down in price, you also step down in performance, and that 2160p is still unequivocally a high-end resolution? You keep going "waa, waa, the 6600 is terrible value because it doesn't game well at 2160p", yet ... value compared to what? There is nothing that provides a notably better value at that resolution, only things that deliver better absolute performance. Value is a function of price and performance. You're using the world 'value' in a way that just doesn't make sense. You want more than GPUs of that class can deliver. That's fine, but it doesn't make them poor value, it just makes them unsuited to your use. And, again, your examples are ludicrously obvious cherry-picking. The base RX 6600 does decently at 2160p for its class, even at stupid Ultra settings:




The 3060 is marginally faster, with the 3060 Ti pulling clearly ahead, just barely cracking 60fps average.




What does this tell us?
- That the 6600 can play 2160p perfectly fine as long as it's not forced to run at Ultra. If it does 40fps average at Ultra, it'll do >60 at medium-high easily. That doesn't mean it'll hit 60 in the outlier titles, but then, seeing how the 3070 didn't crack 30 in CP2077, that's hardly surprising.
- For its price, it's a decently competitive card even at 2160p despite RDNA2 not scaling that well to higher resolutions. You need to step up to the much more expensive 3060 Ti for a meaningful increase.
- The class of performance that you seem to be asking for is simply not where this card sits in the product stack, and it is priced accordingly. This makes your claims about it being poor value fall apart entirely.


----------



## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... or, maybe, it's the entirely common and normal fact that as you step down in price, you also step down in performance, and that 2160p is still unequivocally a high-end resolution? You keep going "waa, waa, the 6600 is terrible value because it doesn't game well at 2160p", yet ... value compared to what? There is nothing that provides a notably better value at that resolution, only things that deliver better absolute performance. Value is a function of price and performance. You're using the world 'value' in a way that just doesn't make sense. You want more than GPUs of that class can deliver. That's fine, but it doesn't make them poor value, it just makes them unsuited to your use. And, again, your examples are ludicrously obvious cherry-picking. The base RX 6600 does decently at 2160p for its class, even at stupid Ultra settings:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, let's agree that the 6600/XT is a card for 1080p medium.
Which is pathetic for its current price range.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Aug 19, 2022)

I'm too much of a GPU elitist to really chime in on this one, but Navi 23, while not really a 4K card shouldn't put too ugly a show at 1440p targeting 60 fps imo. The 6650 XT (fully enabled and enhanced core) might even handle some of the lighter games at 4K 60 just fine, I guess. The mobile RTX 3050 (so GA107 with 16 SMs out of 20 enabled), at 80W, generally does 1080p60 perfectly well in most games, the 4 GB VRAM being its real issue IMO. RX 6600 can't really be worse than that.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Aug 19, 2022)

I`m still wating for a 970GTX level of pref/$$$


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## Valantar (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> Yeah, let's agree that the 6600/XT is a card for 1080p medium.
> Which is pathetic for its current price range.


Like ... what? Man, your reality distortion field is _strong_, clearly.

First off: The 6600 and 6600 XT are not "a card", they are two distinct SKUs with quite distinct performance levels.

Second:




That's the 6600, not the XT. 1080p medium, you say? At what refresh rate, 240Hz? 'Cause that review suite quite clearly shows it delivering an average 114fps at Ultra. It's still well above 60fps average at 1440p.

You're talking out of your rear end here, and your claims about "value" are just plain-faced ridiculous. Please just stop making a fool out of yourself.


----------



## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

What about ray-tracing? It can't enable it?








MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X review - DXR: Raytracing performance - RE8 - Watch Dogs: Legion - Cyberpunk - F1 2021 (guru3d.com)




MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X Review - Raytracing | TechPowerUp


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 19, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I`m still wating for a 970GTX level of pref/$$$



That's a difficult metric to compare to at this point, since none of the benchmarks from the 970 launch are in use anymore.  But here I go anyway.  If we look at the 970's $330 launch price, the only card that matches right now (in the US) is the 6600 XT, which averages over 100fps (and at least 60) in TPU's test battery at 1080p, and nearly 100 at 1440 (most games above 60). It falls on its face a bit at 4K, but so did the 970. Power envelope is even similar, at 160W for the Radeon vs. the GeForce's 150W.

Granted, the 6600 XT isn't as close to the high-end cards as the 970 was in its day.  But the ceiling has been raised by a TON over the last couple of generations.  Top single-GPU dog that gen was the 980 ti, a 250W design.  The 3080 ti by contrast pulls 350W, while a 3090 ti will suck down around 450W.  If we limit ourselves to the TDP of the 980 ti, the highest current-gen performer is the 6800 on the AMD side and 3070 for Nvidia (yes, it's actually 220W, but the next-step-up 2070 ti is 290W).  By the TPU 980 ti FE review, the 970 was 25-30% behind overall.  The 6600 XT is 25-50% down at 1080/1440 depending on whether you're comparing the 3070 or 6800; the 6800 pulls further ahead as  resolution scales, and is actually double at 4K.

TPU wasn't doing their AVGfps chart back when Maxwell launched, so I quick made my own, choosing 1440p because someone inevitably scoffs at 1080p and 4K isn't a reasonable target at this price point.  The dashed line represents the ~99fps average of the 6600 XT @ 1440p.  Looking at the two side-by-side now, I'd conclude that the 6600 XT is actually a _better_ P/P card than the GTX 970.









TL;DR:  If you're looking for high-end-adjacent performance for $350 or less, that's probably never happening.  If what you want is equivalent or better performance in current titles for that same money, AMD has a 6600 XT they'd love to sell you.



ARF said:


> What about ray-tracing? It can't enable it?



If one searches for a reason to dislike something, one will always find it.  The 6600 and XT suck by the metrics that matter to you.  We get it.  They're excellent cards for users with other priorities.  Personally, I'd love to have either one.


----------



## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> If one searches for a reason to dislike something, one will always find it.  The 6600 and XT suck by the metrics that matter to you.  We get it.  They're excellent cards for users with other priorities.  Personally, I'd love to have either one.



Actually, the problem that I see is the one that you mentioned - the gigantic performance difference between it and the higher end cards.

It is a very risky purchase without future proofing.
New games launched and you will observe under 50 FPS everywhere regardless of the settings.



80-watt Hamster said:


> *Granted, the 6600 XT isn't as close to the high-end cards as the 970 was in its day.  But the ceiling has been raised by a TON over the last couple of generations.  Top single-GPU dog that gen was the 980 ti, a 250W design.  The 3080 ti by contrast pulls 350W, while a 3090 ti will suck down around 450W.  If we limit ourselves to the TDP of the 980 ti, the highest current-gen performer is the 6800 on the AMD side and 3070 for Nvidia (yes, it's actually 220W, but the next-step-up 2070 ti is 290W).  By the TPU 980 ti FE review, the 970 was 25-30% behind overall.  The 6600 XT is 25-50% down at 1080/1440 depending on whether you're comparing the 3070 or 6800; the 6800 pulls further ahead as  resolution scales, and is actually double at 4K.*


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## Valantar (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> Actually, the problem that I see is the one that you mentioned - the gigantic performance difference between it and the higher end cards.


As the post you quoted said, you're looking - and very, very hard - for a reason to dislike this card. Is it further behind the top than the 970 was? Yes, because the 970 was a third-tier card, while the 6600 is 6th (if you count only the first round of RDNA2 SKUs) on AMD's tier list. This has been talked about for _years_: that as more resolutions become useable, the range of what is "usable" performance widens considerably, and necessitates an increasing number of SKUs - especially as production costs also rise as we come ever closer to running into various production/engineering/lithography walls that have yet to be worked around. Does the existence of many more SKUs make the 6600 a worse deal? Not at all, as those SKUs are much more expensive, and much worse value, even if they're also faster. The 6600, let alone the XT, is a great deal, delivering excellent value for money, great performance at 1080p and 1440p, and nothing of what you're saying comes even close to being an argument against that, let alone being a convincing one.


ARF said:


> It is a very risky purchase without future proofing.


No GPU is future proof in any way, shape or form. This is nonsense.


ARF said:


> New games launched and you will observe under 50 FPS everywhere regardless of the settings.


As has been the case with every GPU ever made. As time passes, its ability to keep up with new launches will diminish. There is no reason to expect the 6600 or 6600 XT to be outliers in this regard.


ARF said:


> What about ray-tracing? It can't enable it?
> 
> View attachment 258637
> 
> ...


You are trying really, really, really hard here, so I guess kudos for the effort if nothing else? Sadly it isn't working though. You can't expect passable RT performance at this price level. I mean, you could buy a 3050 - which costs more in many places - and get ... let's see:




Oh, right, it's worse than both the 6600 and 6600 XT. So, to get passable 1080p RT performance in that title, you ened a 6700 XT or 3060 Ti - both of which are also much more expensive. So ... the value proposition is still there, no, if you have to pay more to get more?

Are you perhaps seeing a pattern here? Something like "if you want more, you pay more"? 'Cause that's what your examples are illustrating - no matter how much work you put into picking as selectively as possible or framing them in extremely biased ways. Also, I thought you didn't care about anything but 2160p? So why are you looking at 1080p testing, all of a sudden? Oh, right, you're trying desperately to cherry-pick a defense of your ludicrous "this is a 1080p medium card" stance, right. 'Cause when you said that, what you meant was "this card can't handle RT". Makes perfect sense.


----------



## cvaldes (Aug 19, 2022)

The recent back-and-forth conversation in this thread between two TPU forum participants is a good illustration of several points.

You can typically make a stance (about graphics cards) by cherry picking through various benchmark results. That's one reason why I like 10-game, 15-game, 20-game average scores. While I never play all of the games, the averages do even out any particular game's preferred architecture or idiosyncrasies.

This leads us to another point: most people play more than one game over the ownership of a given gaming device. It's possible to build a pure play PC optimized for a single game (like Hollow Knight) but that's not a real world usage case for Joe Consumer or even the typical DIY PC Builder.

There are details that these game average FPS scores don't always reveal in an obvious way.

One example is display resolution. One manufacturer's cards don't do so well at higher resolutions compared to the equivalent competition.

Ray tracing performance is superior in one. DLSS is available in one. It's important to note that graphics card reviews generally run separate tests for these two features.

From a pure rasterization standpoint, AMD cards offer a better value (performance per dollar), particularly at lower gameplay resolutions. However if you play games that use ray tracing (more are added as time goes on) and take advantage of DLSS (same), there are benefits of Nvidia cards that AMD's current lineup don't offer.

There are other weird little features that might favor an Ampere card. I happen to use Nvidia Broadcast for cleaning up live audio and video. The Tensor cores apparently do most of the heavy lifting here. While this undoubtedly is not in everyone's usage case, it is a real world task that my recent GeForce cards can offer.

In the end, the best strategy is to buy from a reputable merchant with a reasonable return policy and to use the card heavily in its expected usage situations during that return window to determine whether or not the product works for your specific needs.

I don't play Cyberpunk 2077 so I really don't care about cards that perform exceptionally well with that title. That's why the aggregate average game scores are more useful than a single game comparison. I do play Control but I'm certainly not going to base a graphics card purchase on that one game benchmark.


----------



## Blaeza (Aug 19, 2022)

When GPU prices return to normal I shall be 84ish.


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## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

> A report from graphics card channel dealers published by MyDrivers states that ASUS, Gigabyte, and MSI are having a difficult time trying to convince retailers and distributors to buy Radeon RX 6000 series cards for sale in the consumer segment. The reason is just like NVIDIA's GPUs which saw a huge price jump during the mining boom but pricing has now plummeted heavily. AMD's Radeon RX 6000 series graphics card prices have plummeted even worse than NVIDIA's GPUs & *there is little to no demand for gaming cards right now*.



GPU Price Crash Is Making It Hard For AIBs To Offload AMD Radeon Graphics Cards Too, RX 6700 XT Drops Below $400 US, RX 6600 Below $260 US (wccftech.com)


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> Actually, the problem that I see is the one that you mentioned - the gigantic performance difference between it and the higher end cards.
> 
> It is a very risky purchase without future proofing.
> New games launched and you will observe under 50 FPS everywhere regardless of the settings.



I agree that there's a problem, but disagree on what that problem is.  Both manufacturers have been raising the bar on what's considered high-end by pushing power consumption.  I'm personally of a mind that 300W+ for graphics is absurd.  This particular arms race has gotten way out of hand.  The 980 ti (since I was already talking about it above), the biggest, baddest card of its day that wasn't two cards bolted to one board, launched at $650.  Its successor stuck with the same power envelope, wiped the floor with it performance-wise, and asked $700.  Today, that power envelope will get you another 50% performance on top of that in a 6800 or 3070, and cost you $600-700.  Price/performance isn't the issue, IMO.  It's expectations.


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## Valantar (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> GPU Price Crash Is Making It Hard For AIBs To Offload AMD Radeon Graphics Cards Too, RX 6700 XT Drops Below $400 US, RX 6600 Below $260 US (wccftech.com)


...and? Is this supposed to support your claim that the 6600 (and XT) is poor value? 'Cause "no demand" is not the same as "everyone thinks things are too expensive". After all, a huge portion of the glut of products now is due to overproduction after a period of unprecedented demand, which is now being followed by (increased) recession and economic anxiety across much of the wealthier parts of the world.


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## ARF (Aug 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ...and? Is this supposed to support your claim that the 6600 (and XT) is poor value? 'Cause "no demand" is not the same as "everyone thinks things are too expensive".



There is no bad product, there is a bad price.

Give me the Radeon RX 6800 XT for 300 euro, I will create that demand right now and buy the card.


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## Dr. Dro (Aug 19, 2022)

ARF said:


> There is no bad product, there is a bad price.
> 
> Give me the Radeon RX 6800 XT for 300 euro, I will create that demand right now and buy the card.



I want one at these charity prices too, big guy. Get in line, I'll flash my cred as a Vanguard beta tester group member and say I need it more than you 



cvaldes said:


> The recent back-and-forth conversation in this thread between two TPU forum participants is a good illustration of several points.
> 
> You can typically make a stance (about graphics cards) by cherry picking through various benchmark results. That's one reason why I like 10-game, 15-game, 20-game average scores. While I never play all of the games, the averages do even out any particular game's preferred architecture or idiosyncrasies.
> 
> ...



I agree. End of the day having an abundance of options to pick from is an excellent thing. There is always a product that will fit your personal needs best.


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## Vario (Aug 19, 2022)

With the decrease in crypto, a lot of garbage ex miner cards are being sold on eBay right now, most are labeled honestly as "nonfunctional", "parts", or "repair".  With that said, probably a good portion of the "used" and "refurbished" cards are also probably non functional.


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## Dirt Chip (Aug 20, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> TL;DR:  If you're looking for high-end-adjacent performance for $350 or less, that's probably never happening.  If what you want is equivalent or better performance in current titles for that same money, AMD has a 6600 XT they'd love to sell you.
> other


I appreciate the deep dive and work you did 
6600xt actually looking very good by that stand point.
Problem is, it's price about 450$ in my country for the most very basic one, 530$ is the average...
Also, I do a lot of primer and Lightroom work so CUDA is a must for me.
In 'normal' days 6600xt might have been the go to card, but further price reduction is required.


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## Valantar (Aug 20, 2022)

ARF said:


> There is no bad product, there is a bad price.
> 
> Give me the Radeon RX 6800 XT for 300 euro, I will create that demand right now and buy the card.


And the logical fallacies just keep coming. "I'm not willing to buy one at the current price, so it must be bad value" is not a logically valid statement. And is "if flagship GPUs were dirt cheap, I'd buy more of them" supposed to be ... anything? Beyond just blindingly obvious?

Also, kind of hilarious for you to say there's no bad products, only bad pricing, when you've been saying things like


ARF said:


> this piece of junk





ARF said:


> The 6600 is a piece of junk because it's also a badly designed product





ARF said:


> the 6600/XT is heavily limited, be it low VRAM, low shaders performance, low PCIe bandwidth, etc


So... is it "a piece of junk", "a badly designed product", or is it priced too high? You seem to be contradicting yourself quite explicitly here.

There is low demand - crucially, _compared to supply_ - because there's been a two-year GPU shortage which is only partially an actual shortage, as it also came alongside an unprecedented spike in demand, which has now reversed as the demand spike has turned into a demand slump, while GPU stocks are high as chipmakers and card makers have been pushing production to meet that demand spike. There is not low demand because prices are too high - if that was the case, then there would have been _no_ demand half a year ago when prices were 50% higher than now, no?


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## HD64G (Aug 20, 2022)

GPU prices might never come back to normal in EU due to inflation, high VAT and $/€ ratio. In US they are already good enough imo.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 20, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I appreciate the deep dive and work you did
> 6600xt actually looking very good by that stand point.
> Problem is, it's price about 450$ in my country for the most very basic one, 530$ is the average...
> Also, I do a lot of primer and Lightroom work so CUDA is a must for me.
> In 'normal' days 6600xt might have been the go to card, but further price reduction is required.



You're welcome.  Sorry to hear that your local pricing is still unfavorable.   For something equivalent on the green side, you're looking at a 3060, which is around another hundred bones here. Which makes it, what, the equivalent of $600-650 where you live? That's mad. Maybe with time lower prices will filter through to other markets, and hopefully the Nvidia premium goes away. Markets _usually_ sort themselves out. Eventually. Fingers crossed.


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## Valantar (Aug 20, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I appreciate the deep dive and work you did
> 6600xt actually looking very good by that stand point.
> Problem is, it's price about 450$ in my country for the most very basic one, 530$ is the average...
> Also, I do a lot of primer and Lightroom work so CUDA is a must for me.
> In 'normal' days 6600xt might have been the go to card, but further price reduction is required.


Where are you located? Do you have a high VAT/GST/sales tax? That drives a lot of increases over US MSRPs globally, though the US has also historically had some of the cheapest electronics in the world, in no small part due to it being a huge single market which keeps costs low, as well as the effects of a globally dominant currency.

If you need CUDA support I don't quite see why you're even considering AMD though. They do have emulation/translation layers, but so far they don't seem to have caught on with developers, so if you need CUDA, Nvidia is all there is.


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## Dirt Chip (Aug 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Where are you located? Do you have a high VAT/GST/sales tax? That drives a lot of increases over US MSRPs globally, though the US has also historically had some of the cheapest electronics in the world, in no small part due to it being a huge single market which keeps costs low, as well as the effects of a globally dominant currency.
> 
> If you need CUDA support I don't quite see why you're even considering AMD though. They do have emulation/translation layers, but so far they don't seem to have caught on with developers, so if you need CUDA, Nvidia is all there is.


I`m from Israel (you can see the 'dead-sea' in my avatar).
We are a very small and quite isolated country from any big market channels.
Lot`s of VAT, other taxes, constraind avilabilty and all the goodis a centrilized market can offer 

I`m not considering buying AMD GPU, just wanted to state, acording to the thred, that price are still pretty high. Yey, it is good to see that even today the option of 6600XT is here if gaming is your main thing. Actually, 3060 12GB`s are in the same price range as 6600XT so I might buy one next year if price cotinue to drop.

Also, some nostalgic from my part to the days fo 8800GT, 560TI (GPU`s I have owned) and as mentioned 970GTX level of pref/$$$.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 20, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> I`m from Israel (you can see the 'desd-sea' in my avatar pic).
> We are a very small and quite isolated country from any big market channels.
> Lot`s of VAT, other taxes, constraind avilabilty and all the goodis a centrilized market can offer
> 
> ...



Oh man, G92 was a _great_ chip. I had a 9800GT that served me well for... five years? It was a long time ago. My next upgrade was to a 550 ti, so that says something to how long it was in my system.


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## Dirt Chip (Aug 20, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Oh man, G92 was a _great_ chip. I had a 9800GT that served me well for... five years? It was a long time ago. My next upgrade was to a 550 ti, so that says something to how long it was in my system.


Yep, me also 8800GT->560TI.
And for ancient history sake, ATI 3D Rage 2->NV TNT2->GeForce2 (Asus V7700)->GeForce6 (Gigabyte 6600, passively cooled) and so on.
Good times...


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## ModEl4 (Aug 20, 2022)

I remember GTX 1050Ti 4GB launched at $139 SRP and was powered only by Pci-express slot.
I wonder what year someone is going to be able to buy at $139 a Pci-express powered VGA with double the performance and memory of GTX 1050Ti.
RX6400 is around only 35% faster at 1080p, has the same memory and starting at $149 nearly 6 years after the launch of GTX 1050Ti.
It will need something 1.5X faster than RX6400 with double the memory.
I wonder how many more years it will take for the market to offer such an option!


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 20, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> I remember GTX 1050Ti 4GB launched at $139 SRP and was powered only by Pci-express slot.
> I wonder what year someone is going to be able to buy at $139 a Pci-express powered VGA with double the performance and memory of GTX 1050Ti.
> RX6400 is around only 35% faster at 1080p, has the same memory and starting at $149 nearly 6 years after the launch of GTX 1050Ti.
> It will need something 1.5X faster than RX6400 with double the memory.
> I wonder how many more years it will take for the market to offer such an option!



Yeah, the low end of the market is way underserved.  One would think the 3050 would fill that role, but it costs twice what it should in both watts and dollars.


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## DuxCro (Aug 20, 2022)

Personally, I have to give up PC gaming. I cannot financially keep track with it any more. For the price of a single mid range GPU, I can buy a wholesome gaming system in the form of PS5 or XSX. It's not just the price of GPU's. But constantly increasing power demands as well. Which means a lot to me since I'm the one paying all the bills.


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## Vario (Aug 20, 2022)

DuxCro said:


> Personally, I have to give up PC gaming. I cannot financially keep track with it any more. For the price of a single mid range GPU, I can buy a wholesome gaming system in the form of PS5 or XSX. It's not just the price of GPU's. But constantly increasing power demands as well. Which means a lot to me since I'm the one paying all the bills.


I've mostly been playing the same 3 or 4 games for the last 5 years so I run a long upgrade cycle, but if you want to play the latest and greatest AAA hits then you are best off with the console.


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## ModEl4 (Aug 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Yeah, the low end of the market is way underserved.  One would think the 3050 would fill that role, but it costs twice what it should in both watts and dollars.


Especially for Pci-express powered solutions at least for 2.5 years (Q1 2025) we are probably not going to have anything.
Even if there is a Navi 34 and AD10B i doubt we will see Pci-express powered versions (if there is going to be a Navi 34, it should be 6nm monolithic like Navi 33, probably with half RBs/texture units/SPs but with 24MB cache and 6GB memory and regarding AD10B i don't see it less than 2048 cuda cores in full implementation making difficult to curve out something in the RX6400 TDP vicinity)


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## mb194dc (Aug 21, 2022)

In the UK 6900xt can be found for £699 now. Inflation? Not in graphics cards! 

Next gen will be a blood bath, market has totally gone. The cyclical down swing has barely started. Reckon prices will go down another 30 to 50% in the next 2 years.


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## Bomby569 (Aug 21, 2022)

DuxCro said:


> Personally, I have to give up PC gaming. I cannot financially keep track with it any more. For the price of a single mid range GPU, I can buy a wholesome gaming system in the form of PS5 or XSX.


that as always been the case, nothing changed.



DuxCro said:


> It's not just the price of GPU's. But constantly increasing power demands as well. Which means a lot to me since I'm the one paying all the bills.



mid range pc doesn't take that much power if you don't go crazy, the problem is more on the high end.


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## Dr. Dro (Aug 21, 2022)

mb194dc said:


> In the UK 6900xt can be found for £699 now. Inflation? Not in graphics cards!
> 
> Next gen will be a blood bath, market has totally gone. The cyclical down swing has barely started. Reckon prices will go down another 30 to 50% in the next 2 years.



The least I have to spend to have an awesome flagship, the better!


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## SpittinFax (Aug 21, 2022)

DuxCro said:


> Personally, I have to give up PC gaming. I cannot financially keep track with it any more. For the price of a single mid range GPU, I can buy a wholesome gaming system in the form of PS5 or XSX. It's not just the price of GPU's. But constantly increasing power demands as well. Which means a lot to me since I'm the one paying all the bills.



I've stopped playing games but for different reasons. I play 1080p so hardware isn't a limitation, it's the fact that recent game releases and even games in general are incredibly boring now. There's no balance, either gameplay is too shallow to be engaging or requires too many hours of progression to be worthwhile. Nothing hits that sweet spot anymore.

But honestly that's not a bad thing. I'm enjoying my projects away from gaming so it doesn't feel like I'm missing out on anything.


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## dragontamer5788 (Aug 21, 2022)

mb194dc said:


> In the UK 6900xt can be found for £699 now. Inflation? Not in graphics cards!
> 
> Next gen will be a blood bath, market has totally gone. The cyclical down swing has barely started. Reckon prices will go down another 30 to 50% in the next 2 years.



COVID19 messed with the cycle.

A lot of people upgraded in 2020 for the zoom calls / at home working, maybe 2021 because the prices got real bad. The new cycle will be 2020 (boom) and 2023 (bust). Maybe with everyone upgrading in 2025 or so for the next boom.


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## tussinman (Aug 21, 2022)

DuxCro said:


> Personally, I have to give up PC gaming. I cannot financially keep track with it any more. For the price of a single mid range GPU, I can buy a wholesome gaming system in the form of PS5 or XSX. It's not just the price of GPU's. But constantly increasing power demands as well. Which means a lot to me since I'm the one paying all the bills.


It's always been expensive.

Even 15 years ago a tower only build with a low clocked core 2 duo and a 8600gts would of been around $700-750 USD (equal to about 1000 in today's dollars) and that would of been considered mid range


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## ppn (Aug 21, 2022)

With PS5 you get RX 5700 / RX 6600 equivalent, currently priced at $260 and ZEN2, so not that outrageous. The GPU part is now very outdated and needs a $100 price adjustment. so it might be cheaper overall, but it lacks the upgradeability and customization, except for Nvme and the side panel and the ability for PC workloads. and until recently it didn't support 1440p so it's either 4k30 or 1080/60, but no middle ground. Maybe I want 1440p/120. And you have to buy the mouse/ keyboard attachement to be able to compete at all.


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## sepheronx (Aug 21, 2022)

GPU prices wont return to normal.  hasn't been normal in years.  Mid Range is now high end prices and has been for a long time.

People will continue to pay those prices too.  So AMD and Nvidia knows people are fools.  Look at motherboards and CPU prices now too.  Only thing reasonable in price are NVME drivers.  I always tell people if they want a PC with PS5 or Xbox series X performance, better shell out $1K CAD minimum.



ppn said:


> With PS5 you get RX 5700 / RX 6600 equivalent, currently priced at $260 and ZEN2, so not that outrageous. The GPU part is now very outdated and needs a $100 price adjustment. so it might be cheaper overall, but it lacks the upgradeability and customization, except for Nvme and the side panel and the ability for PC workloads. and until recently it didn't support 1440p so it's either 4k30 or 1080/60, but no middle ground. Maybe I want 1440p/120. And you have to buy the mouse/ keyboard attachement to be able to compete at all.



More like 3700X in terms of CPU for cores and tech or whatnot but this is a good video:










Gaming as a whole sucks right now anyway.  You do not need a high end PC to play majority of titles and upcoming titles.  PS5 and Xbox series X are good value but there really isn't any games for them either worth picking up.  I got a PS5 still sitting in its box as I have no need for it - games selection is abysmal.


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## Bomby569 (Aug 21, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> GPU prices wont return to normal.  hasn't been normal in years.  Mid Range is now high end prices and has been for a long time.
> 
> People will continue to pay those prices too.  So AMD and Nvidia knows people are fools.  Look at motherboards and CPU prices now too.  Only thing reasonable in price are NVME drivers.  I always tell people if they want a PC with PS5 or Xbox series X performance, better shell out $1K CAD minimum.
> 
> ...



With a PC you can do it incremental, start low and work your way up, for 3/4 of gamers i would gestimate, they don't upgrade every year and carry many old parts. A lot of people just do the old throw a new gpu into the old box.
Don't get detached from reality, most people aren't buying new parts every year, people are are not the norm.

Steve's last video was the most purchased PSU on Amazon, and was a 30$, or something like that, thermaltake


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## sepheronx (Aug 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> With a PC you can do it incremental, start low and work your way up, for 3/4 of gamers i would gestimate, they don't upgrade every year and carry many old parts. A lot of people just do the old throw a new gpu into the old box.
> Don't get detached from reality, most people aren't buying new parts every year, people are are not the norm.
> 
> Steve's last video was the most purchased PSU on Amazon, and was a 30$, or something like that, thermaltake



I agree, you can do incremental.  But it also ends up being quite expensive over time from experience.  Most gamers don't upgrade often though and I think the GTX 1060 6gb is still most popular GPU in gaming currently.

You will be surprised how many do buy parts every year.  I dont want you to get detached from reality either.

None of that matters though and nothing to do with what I am saying and is a pointless conversation.  The facts are in yours and my face.  Prices on components are through the roof and it isn't coming down, at least not anytime soon.  People are still buying them.  Otherwise, they wouldn't be priced at what they are.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 22, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> I agree, you can do incremental.  But it also ends up being quite expensive over time from experience.  Most gamers don't upgrade often though and I think the GTX 1060 6gb is still most popular GPU in gaming currently.
> 
> You will be surprised how many do buy parts every year.  I dont want you to get detached from reality either.
> 
> None of that matters though and nothing to do with what I am saying and is a pointless conversation.  The facts are in yours and my face.  Prices on components are through the roof and it isn't coming down, at least not anytime soon.  People are still buying them.  Otherwise, they wouldn't be priced at what they are.



That's true for graphics, and to a lesser extent power supplies and motherboards.  But you get more processor for a given amount of money than at any point in history, same for memory and storage.  PSU/MB pricing is being held up by component costs, and graphics is resisting drops because retailers are trying to recoup their sunk costs.  Downward price corrections almost always take much longer than the rise.  We've seen AMD prices steadily slide over the past several months.  I expect Nvidia's will follow within perhaps another six.  A 3050 can't cost more than a 6600 forever.  Can it?


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## sepheronx (Aug 22, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> That's true for graphics, and to a lesser extent power supplies and motherboards.  But you get more processor for a given amount of money than at any point in history, same for memory and storage.  PSU/MB pricing is being held up by component costs, and graphics is resisting drops because retailers are trying to recoup their sunk costs.  Downward price corrections almost always take much longer than the rise.  We've seen AMD prices steadily slide over the past several months.  I expect Nvidia's will follow within perhaps another six.  A 3050 can't cost more than a 6600 forever.  Can it?



Motherboards replaced CPU's in the cost department.  CPU's were in the past ridiculously expensive in various model.  But, motherboards I do not remember being as expensive as they are now and they are now going up from the sounds of it.  So they just swapped places.


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## Valantar (Aug 22, 2022)

Motherboards are suffering the same fate as smartphones have - as they see an ever increasing amount of features and high speed IO stuffed into them, BOM, costs, design complexity and production difficulty all skyrocket, taking prices with them. And like smartphones, we're seeing more an more people settle for more midrange offerings as, well, they don't actually need heaps of PCIe 4.0 or 5.0, 50-phase VRMs or all the thunderbolts and USB4s and fancy NICs etc for a regular pc build. Contrast this to CPUs that are wildly expensive to design but relatively cheap to manufacture (small die sizes, massive economies of scale), and you see why motherboards are pulling away in terms of price.


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## Dirt Chip (Aug 22, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> Motherboards replaced CPU's in the cost department.  CPU's were in the past ridiculously expensive in various model.  But, motherboards I do not remember being as expensive as they are now and they are now going up from the sounds of it.  So they just swapped places.


At least part of it is on the fault of heumen 'need' of esthetic.
Way too much resources of verius kinds going to make mobo (and othe tech) looks 'good' and 'stand out', with no other benefit at all.

This trand pulling all the industry in that directiom, making a non-RGB a 'spacial' thing that cost even more in some cases.
In the end, even if you dont wand it you pay for the design and bling bling stupid (in my opinion) lights, screes and other plastic 'beauty' parts. 

So to a rapidly growing part, we have only ourselves to blame.


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## Bomby569 (Aug 22, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> I agree, you can do incremental.  But it also ends up being quite expensive over time from experience.  Most gamers don't upgrade often though and I think the GTX 1060 6gb is still most popular GPU in gaming currently.
> 
> You will be surprised how many do buy parts every year.  I dont want you to get detached from reality either.
> 
> None of that matters though and nothing to do with what I am saying and is a pointless conversation.  The facts are in yours and my face.  Prices on components are through the roof and it isn't coming down, at least not anytime soon.  People are still buying them.  Otherwise, they wouldn't be priced at what they are.



there are more people in the market, a lot more, then a couple of years ago. Hell, go back a some time and the PC was almost dead, now everyone wants a gaming PC, let's not mention a school PC, a work PC a facebook PC, etc...

That PS5/Xbox comparison must include the difference in game prices. Prices are much cheaper on PC and for the last couple of years you could even game for free just on EPIC freebies alone. Not everything is  black or white.


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## KLiKzg (Aug 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> mid range pc doesn't take that much power if you don't go crazy, the problem is more on the high end.


Mid range 30-series card are about 200~250W, while 40-series cards will push that from 200~300W.
Those are the numbers from 7, 8, 9 & 10-series high cards!

In a current energy crisis, GPU prices for a new ones will not go down. But the selling of the older ones started! Ebay is full of offers.


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## Bomby569 (Aug 22, 2022)

KLiKzg said:


> Mid range 30-series card are about 200~250W, while 40-series cards will push that from 200~300W.
> Those are the numbers from 7, 8, 9 & 10-series high cards!
> 
> In a current energy crisis, GPU prices for a new ones will not go down. But the selling of the older ones started! Ebay is full of offers.



you're based on rumours, wait and see.


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## Palladium (Aug 22, 2022)

I dunno, but maybe a big part of the recent price crash beside crypto-related is because the pixel pushing PC games aren't really that fun to begin with.


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## Bomby569 (Aug 22, 2022)

Palladium said:


> I dunno, but maybe a big part of the recent price crash beside crypto-related is because the pixel pushing PC games aren't really that fun to begin with.



the AAA games that demand the latest and greatest gpu's have all been big disappointments for sure, and there is so few of them anyway. AAA has been a disaster lately.

the really good games coming out latelly you can do with last gen hardware.


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## Palladium (Aug 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> the AAA games that demand the latest and greatest gpu's have all been big disappointments for sure, and there is so few of them anyway. AAA has been a disaster lately.
> 
> the really good games coming out latelly you can do with last gen hardware.



Well I'm more interested in BOTW2 than any upcoming PC related, and its not like I can't play the PC games I want well enough anyway on my 2060S or 1070.


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## KLiKzg (Aug 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> you're based on rumours, wait and see.


All the data from 30-series & below are valid & confirmed. So still, your comment might be true only for the older cards.

Like older older card in vintage section, not going to need extra power more than 100W for GPU. & to hit that in mid-range models, you have to go to Tesla models - which is something like 8600 GTS or 9600 GT (not GTX, which goes above 100W).

We are all just getting power-hungry. In all newer CPUs, GPUs, etc.


----------



## Bomby569 (Aug 22, 2022)

KLiKzg said:


> All the data from 30-series & below are valid & confirmed. So still, your comment might be true only for the older cards.
> 
> Like older older card in vintage section, not going to need extra power more than 100W for GPU. & to hit that in mid-range models, you have to go to Tesla models - which is something like 8600 GTS or 9600 GT (not GTX, which goes above 100W).
> 
> We are all just getting power-hungry. In all newer CPUs, GPUs, etc.



we are talking about mid range. The 1060 is 120W the 3060 170W (you can go with team red, the similar rx6600 is 132W), it's not an insane difference. The ryzen 1600 and the 5600 are 65W.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 22, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> At least part of it is on the fault of heumen 'need' of esthetic.
> Way too much resources of verius kinds going to make mobo (and othe tech) looks 'good' and 'stand out', with no other benefit at all.
> 
> This trand pulling all the industry in that directiom, making a non-RGB a 'spacial' thing that cost even more in some cases.
> ...


That's just plain inaccurate. Sure, designing for aesthetics has _some_ cost, over just not giving a damn whatsoever. But that cost is low, even when taken to extremes of large molded shrouds, tons of RGB, etc. Compared to the added PCB layers and higher quality PCB materials needed for current high speed I/O (PCIe, USB/TB, RAM) and the cost of building out VRMs capable of efficiently delivering hundreds of amps of power, the cost of aesthetics is negligible. It does somewhat allow board makers to charge more, as it allows them to pass off products as fancier/more premium, but the actual cost is negligible. LEDs, LED controllers and some injection molded plastic are all dirt cheap additions compared to the actual necessities of delivering tons of PCIe 5/4, USB 3.2x2/4/TB3/4, etc.

Yes, high end board prices have exploded, and that is in large part due to being able to sell them as premium products - which also necessitates looking the part. But the more meaningful change is low end boards, which have crept up $50-100 despite many of them still not having even a VRM heatsink, let alone any RGB or other major aesthetic additions.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 22, 2022)

Valantar said:


> That's just plain inaccurate. Sure, designing for aesthetics has _some_ cost, over just not giving a damn whatsoever. But that cost is low, even when taken to extremes of large molded shrouds, tons of RGB, etc. Compared to the added PCB layers and higher quality PCB materials needed for current high speed I/O (PCIe, USB/TB, RAM) and the cost of building out VRMs capable of efficiently delivering hundreds of amps of power, the cost of aesthetics is negligible. It does somewhat allow board makers to charge more, as it allows them to pass off products as fancier/more premium, but the actual cost is negligible. LEDs, LED controllers and some injection molded plastic are all dirt cheap additions compared to the actual necessities of delivering tons of PCIe 5/4, USB 3.2x2/4/TB3/4, etc.
> 
> Yes, high end board prices have exploded, and that is in large part due to being able to sell them as premium products - which also necessitates looking the part. But the more meaningful change is low end boards, which have crept up $50-100 despite many of them still not having even a VRM heatsink, let alone any RGB or other major aesthetic additions.



Good call on the motherboard trend.  A few years back, I went WAY back in my Newegg purchase history for reasons, and found that I'd paid over $100 for the MB in my 2009 build.  It was only a P45, and not a fancy one either.  Cut to today, and one can get a B550 or B660 board (P45's rough modern equivalents) for about the same cost.  Then again, there are options out there for both at nearly 300 Benjamins.  So maybe everybody's right.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Aug 22, 2022)

Valantar said:


> That's just plain inaccurate. Sure, designing for aesthetics has _some_ cost, over just not giving a damn whatsoever. But that cost is low, even when taken to extremes of large molded shrouds, tons of RGB, etc. Compared to the added PCB layers and higher quality PCB materials needed for current high speed I/O (PCIe, USB/TB, RAM) and the cost of building out VRMs capable of efficiently delivering hundreds of amps of power, the cost of aesthetics is negligible. It does somewhat allow board makers to charge more, as it allows them to pass off products as fancier/more premium, but the actual cost is negligible. LEDs, LED controllers and some injection molded plastic are all dirt cheap additions compared to the actual necessities of delivering tons of PCIe 5/4, USB 3.2x2/4/TB3/4, etc.
> 
> Yes, high end board prices have exploded, and that is in large part due to being able to sell them as premium products - which also necessitates looking the part. But the more meaningful change is low end boards, which have crept up $50-100 despite many of them still not having even a VRM heatsink, let alone any RGB or other major aesthetic additions.


Maybe they are cheap and contribute very small amount to the bill of material but thay make an excuse to charge more on 'preimum' product for no good reason.

So you end paying much more for the smae exact hardware only for it to 'look pretty'


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Aug 22, 2022)

I reckon there is a reason the cheapest MB's are still green/blue PCB's and do not come with plastic covers or fancy heatsinks. It is mostly extra labor that adds up.


----------



## Lei (Aug 23, 2022)

__





						News des 20./21. August 2022 | 3DCenter.org
					

Da gewünscht, gibt es nun doch noch einen weiteren Blick auf den Stand der Grafikkarten-Preise der bald auslaufenden Ampere/RDNA2-Generation. Unter Einrechnung genau dieses Umstands bzw. klarer Abverkaufspreise an der Leistungsspitze des Alt-Portfolios




					www.3dcenter.org
				




Availability is going down a bit, means people are buying. 
Ethereum profitability going up a bit, means some miners left the field. 

On the covid side, Japan is #1 in the world now. Didn't expect USA ever going to become 2nd.


----------



## catulitechup (Aug 23, 2022)

very interesting offers in newegg maybe various stay affect for arc a380 (possible buy now), specially around 140us









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Since here around 200us to 280us









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						EVGA GeForce RTX 2060 12GB XC GAMING, 12G-P4-2263-KR, 12GB GDDR6, Dual Fans, Metal Backplate - Newegg.com
					

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----------



## Valantar (Aug 23, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Maybe they are cheap and contribute very small amount to the bill of material but thay make an excuse to charge more on 'preimum' product for no good reason.
> 
> So you end paying much more for the smae exact hardware only for it to 'look pretty'


But that's the exact misunderstanding that's going on here: it's not the same hardware. Not even close. It looks similar, but beneath the surface you have more PCB layers, higher quality materials, more expensive controllers, more expensive VRMs, +++. They _also_ have gussied-up looks, but that's not why they're more expensive than seemingly similar motherboards that came before. If your motherboard has PCIe 4.0 vs. a previous version with 3.0, then it is more expensive to produce - period. Economies of scale are starting to shrink this gap a bit (finally!), but it'll never reach the levels of the previous sweet spot of cost and I/O, simply because the newer tech increases base production and design costs above what would have been possible with previous I/O generations.

That doesn't mean that looks aren't _also_ used as a marketing tactic, in part to justify the higher prices, but claiming that a focus on aesthetics are on any level causal to motherboard prices increasing is just plain wrong. This isn't "we slapped a fancy shroud on and now we can charge 50% more", it's "our margins are so low we are barely surviving after these cost increases, but if we produce more of a premium product, we can avoid going under as people will more easily pay for that."


----------



## Dirt Chip (Aug 23, 2022)

Valantar said:


> But that's the exact misunderstanding that's going on here: it's not the same hardware. Not even close. It looks similar, but beneath the surface you have more PCB layers, higher quality materials, more expensive controllers, more expensive VRMs, +++. They _also_ have gussied-up looks, but that's not why they're more expensive than seemingly similar motherboards that came before. If your motherboard has PCIe 4.0 vs. a previous version with 3.0, then it is more expensive to produce - period. Economies of scale are starting to shrink this gap a bit (finally!), but it'll never reach the levels of the previous sweet spot of cost and I/O, simply because the newer tech increases base production and design costs above what would have been possible with previous I/O generations.
> 
> That doesn't mean that looks aren't _also_ used as a marketing tactic, in part to justify the higher prices, but claiming that a focus on aesthetics are on any level causal to motherboard prices increasing is just plain wrong. This isn't "we slapped a fancy shroud on and now we can charge 50% more", it's "our margins are so low we are barely surviving after these cost increases, but if we produce more of a premium product, we can avoid going under as people will more easily pay for that."


We agree and say the same thing in the end.
I'm not saying that LED and plastic is the main cause of increasing cost but that it is there and it's part is everly growing.

You are absolutely right to say that the HW advancement lead, rightfully to some %, the price increase but that not the case (IMO) when talking abou lead an plastic that dont contribute anything to your IO choice, performance, tweet ability and so on.

In conclusion: I can accept some sort of increase due to better HW but cannot accept any kind of increase just to make it look pretty. And it getting worse every gen.


----------



## KLiKzg (Aug 24, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> we are talking about mid range. The 1060 is 120W the 3060 170W (you can go with team red, the similar rx6600 is 132W), it's not an insane difference. The ryzen 1600 and the 5600 are 65W.


Thank you for proving my point!

960 & 1060 & 1660 ~120W
2060 ~160W
3060 ~170W
4060 is said to be ~200W


----------



## Bomby569 (Aug 24, 2022)

KLiKzg said:


> Thank you for proving my point!
> 
> 660 & 1060 & 1660 ~120W
> 2060 ~160W
> ...



just the 12GB Vram vs the 6GB on the 1060 vs 3060 alone have to use power, they don't run on fairy dust


----------



## KLiKzg (Aug 24, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> just the 12GB Vram vs the 6GB on the 1060 vs 3060 alone have to use power, they don't run on fairy dust


2060 6GB ~160W
2060 12GB ~184W

Please, you are embarrassing yourself, with data freely available on this web page's database.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Aug 24, 2022)

ppn said:


> With PS5 you get RX 5700 / RX 6600 equivalent, currently priced at $260 and ZEN2, so not that outrageous. The GPU part is now very outdated and needs a $100 price adjustment. so it might be cheaper overall, but it lacks the upgradeability and customization, except for Nvme and the side panel and the ability for PC workloads. and until recently it didn't support 1440p so it's either 4k30 or 1080/60, but no middle ground. Maybe I want 1440p/120. And you have to buy the mouse/ keyboard attachement to be able to compete at all.



The problem with buying a PS5 is that you don't get to enjoy your games the way _you_ want to, you only do it the way *Sony allows you to*, strictly on their terms and they're all too happy to tell you how and what you can and cannot enjoy because of their censorship policies and tightly controlled walled garden environment. For anyone who considers video games a form of art rather than consumable, passable entertainment or, God forbid, a "toy", the PS5 is simply not an option. And I consider video games the_ maximum _expression of art.



Valantar said:


> Motherboards are suffering the same fate as smartphones have - as they see an ever increasing amount of features and high speed IO stuffed into them, BOM, costs, design complexity and production difficulty all skyrocket, taking prices with them. And like smartphones, we're seeing more an more people settle for more midrange offerings as, well, they don't actually need heaps of PCIe 4.0 or 5.0, 50-phase VRMs or all the thunderbolts and USB4s and fancy NICs etc for a regular pc build. Contrast this to CPUs that are wildly expensive to design but relatively cheap to manufacture (small die sizes, massive economies of scale), and you see why motherboards are pulling away in terms of price.



Agreed, but there's an even worse problem, which is excessive fluff in practically every SKU from the upper-midrange onwards. All the new ROG boards coming with built-in OLED screens and the sort, just... why?


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Aug 25, 2022)

KLiKzg said:


> 2060 6GB ~160W
> 2060 12GB ~184W
> 
> Please, you are embarrassing yourself, with data freely available on this web page's database.


So 6GB of VRAM uses 24W - and the 3060 uses less power than the 2060 12GB, with faster VRAM. I call that a win, however small.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Aug 25, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> So 6GB of VRAM uses 24W - and the 3060 uses less power than the 2060 12GB, with faster VRAM. I call that a win, however small.



No, not even that. The 12 GB RTX 2060 is not the same type of GPU, it has the same amount of CUDA cores as the RTX 2060 Super, just on a narrower bus width. It should be a little faster than a regular 2060,  the extra power limit is some allowance to let those extra few execution units stretch their legs a little bit.


----------



## ModEl4 (Aug 27, 2022)

AMD & NVIDIA Partners Ready To Offer More Brutal Price Cuts On GPUs In September, Current Cuts Not Moving Inventory As Expected

_The sound of graphics card price cuts has been heard for a long time, but many users are not aware of it. According to the revelations of Taiwan Economic Daily, the main reason is that manufacturers are still discussing better preferential measures with dealers .

According to the latest news from Taiwan Economic Daily, the industry's destocking is not as good as expected. Graphics card manufacturers will start a new wave of price cuts from September, mainly NVIDIA and AMD products, *and the price cuts will far exceed the previous efforts*, which can be better to alleviate cost pressures._


----------



## cvaldes (Aug 27, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> Most gamers don't upgrade often though and I think the GTX 1060 6gb is still most popular GPU in gaming currently.


An older model entry-level card is going to be the top GPU in the Steam surveys because so many people own one (time and cost); the average consumer doesn't change GPUs every year. At some point it will likely be the 2060. And then maybe the 3060 or 3050 in 3-4 years.

In the same way, the most commonly stolen automobiles are ten year old Honda Civics and Toyota Camrys simply because there are so many of them still on the road (they're inexpensive and durable) and the parts are worth more than the whole used car itself. In the same way, most people don't get a new car every three years.

Going back to the original topic though, prices still haven't returned to normal across the board in all markets. There's still tons of price gouging in smaller markets.

Even in the USA, some AIB partners are still listing some products at the original inflated MSRPs. EVGA is still selling the GeForce RTX 3050 XC Black at $329 (this is the "premium" 3050 model with a slight factory overclock and a meta backplate). The cheaper $249 XC Black Gaming model (no OC, no backplate) is still out of stock.

The high-end models are now frequently sold below original release MSRP here in the USA but that is not the case with the entry-level and mid-range cards.

My guess is that Nvidia and AMD will launch their halo cards (RTX 4090 and RX 7900 or whatever they end up being called) and then slash prices deeply on Ampere and RNDA2 to clear out channel inventory before they launch mid-range next gen cards early next year.

So in a convoluted and perverse way brought about by the pandemic, crypto market crash, supply chain issues, and inflation, prices won't really return to normal until 2023. I would expect some great deals on current models in Q4 of this year.


----------



## ARF (Aug 28, 2022)

To buy or not to buy, to discount or not to discount? That is the question.. 



Lei said:


> Availability is going down a bit, means people are buying.



"A few days ago, we reported that AMD & NVIDIA were prepping up new price cuts for their GPUs which would be issued by their partners. *However, it looks like the most recent price cuts haven't done particularly well in moving inventory* and as such, both companies are now preparing for a more brutal round of price cuts, promotions, and discounts on their existing lineup."
AMD & NVIDIA Partners Ready To Offer More Brutal Price Cuts On GPUs In September, Current Cuts Not Moving Inventory As Expected (wccftech.com)


NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti & RTX 4060 Rumored To Feature Over 2.5 GHz Clocks, Top Model Faster Than An RTX 3080 10 GB (wccftech.com)


> Based on these figures, the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti & RTX 4060 would end up around 45-50% faster than their predecessors, the RTX 3060 Ti and RTX 3060. But this is only a synthetic result and gaming performance could be lower. So more realistically, if this result is anywhere close to reality, we can see a gaming performance improvement in the range of 25-40%. That's about right since the previous gen RTX 3060 series also got an average speed up ranging between 15-25% at max.
> 
> NVIDIA is expected to talk about its next-generation gaming GPU architecture at GTC 2022 next month so we will probably get to hear about new cards but the mainstream lineup is usually reserved for later (CES 2023).


----------



## catulitechup (Aug 29, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> AMD & NVIDIA Partners Ready To Offer More Brutal Price Cuts On GPUs In September, *Current Cuts Not Moving Inventory As Expected*
> 
> _The sound of graphics card price cuts has been heard for a long time, but many users are not aware of it. According to the revelations of Taiwan Economic Daily, the main reason is that manufacturers are still discussing better preferential measures with dealers .
> 
> According to the latest news from Taiwan Economic Daily, the industry's destocking is not as good as expected. Graphics card manufacturers will start a new wave of price cuts from September, mainly NVIDIA and AMD products, *and the price cuts will far exceed the previous efforts*, which can be better to alleviate cost pressures._



Which cuts ?






only left remain with unsold e-garbage


----------



## tussinman (Aug 29, 2022)

catulitechup said:


> Which cuts ?


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. 

The 3050, 3060, 3060ti, and 3070 are all literally over MSRP right now, nvidia literally didn't cut anything (there not even at MSRP pricing for most of there models). 

AMD is a little better (6600, 6600XT, and 6700 are on average about 5-7% below MSRP) but to be honest in a more normal market those cards current prices would of most likely been the real 2021 MSRP so there not exactly steals right now


----------



## ModEl4 (Aug 29, 2022)

catulitechup said:


> Which cuts ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From my understanding they are talking about the cuts that they negotiated with their partners in Asia at around middle of August.
Outside Asia, these cuts will start to be visible logically from this week in Western regions when partners receive stock based on new price agreements.
But in Asia they had already 1-2 weeks to check if demand increased in a satisfying degree, so according to the report it seems the demand still isn't at the level that they need and are planning further price cuts already.


----------



## Blaeza (Aug 29, 2022)

Does anyone think that AMD GPUs will drop in price in the next month?  I'm looking to get a 6800 for under £500 or it'll be a 6750 with free ducky keyboard for £510, unless that drops too.  Choices but hard ones!


----------



## cvaldes (Aug 29, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Does anyone think that AMD GPUs will drop in price in the next month?  I'm looking to get a 6800 for under £500 or it'll be a 6750 with free ducky keyboard for £510, unless that drops too.  Choices but hard ones!


No one can predict the future but market conditions (excess GPU inventory at retailers) leads many to believe that prices will need to come down further to entice buyers. How much further? No one knows.

This is a complex situation because various parties are all trying to make some money (AMD, AIB partners, retailers) and do so in various markets under different circumstances (currency exchange fluctuations, inflation, overall customer interest, etc.). Bundling has been a longtime PC retailer strategy to move items of lower demand with items of higher demand.

Is the prospect of a free bundled keyboard enough to move graphics cards that are soon to become "previous generation"? I'm not so sure about that.

One thing we do know is that current pricing isn't depleting channel inventory fast enough.


----------



## Blaeza (Aug 29, 2022)

Well October 7th I get a new GPU and kind of hope it's a 6800 but I've only ever had a dell keyboard, so its a win win situation for me regardless.  But if they all suddenly drop I'd take a 6800 xt for £500 no question.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 29, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Well October 7th I get a new GPU and kind of hope it's a 6800 but I've only ever had a dell keyboard, so its a win win situation for me regardless.  But if they all suddenly drop I'd take a 6800 xt for £500 no question.



6600 XT for under USD200 and I'll probably open my wallet.  Timeline on that?  Can't even guess.


----------



## ARF (Aug 29, 2022)

Timeline of pricing:

16.08.2022

Radeon RX 6400 - 168.82 euro
Radeon RX 6500 XT - 169.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 - 294.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 XT - 394.13 euro
Radeon RX 6650 XT - 402.34 euro
Radeon RX 6700 XT - 479.90 euro
Radeon RX 6750 XT - 549.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 - 639.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 XT - 769.00 euro
Radeon RX 6900 XT - 929.00 euro
Radeon RX 6950 XT - 1181.50 euro

23.08.2022

Radeon RX 6400 - 171.38 euro
Radeon RX 6500 XT - 187.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 - 289.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 XT - 394.13 euro
Radeon RX 6650 XT - 403.00 euro
Radeon RX 6700 XT - 479.90 euro
Radeon RX 6750 XT - 549.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 - 639.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 XT - 769.00 euro
Radeon RX 6900 XT - 899.00 euro
Radeon RX 6950 XT - 1173.98 euro

*30.08.2022

Radeon RX 6400 - 171.69 euro
Radeon RX 6500 XT - 187.90 euro
Radeon RX 6600 - 278.00 euro
Radeon RX 6600 XT - 388.96 euro
Radeon RX 6650 XT - 403.00 euro
Radeon RX 6700 XT - 431.10 euro
Radeon RX 6750 XT - 540.48 euro
Radeon RX 6800 - 629.00 euro
Radeon RX 6800 XT - 769.00 euro
Radeon RX 6900 XT - 924.92 euro
Radeon RX 6950 XT - 1173.98 euro*


----------



## ModEl4 (Aug 29, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> 6600 XT for under USD200 and I'll probably open my wallet.  Timeline on that?  Can't even guess.


You mean under $200 for XT, new model with full warranty or used model?


----------



## ARF (Aug 29, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> You mean under $200 for XT, new model with full warranty or used model?



On newegg it is now $275 brand new with shipping included.


----------



## ModEl4 (Aug 29, 2022)

ARF said:


> On newegg it is now $275 brand new with shipping included.


Someone to answer @80-watt Hamster question must have an idea about the stock situation/production/sales forecast of Navi23 at least and i don't.
I just think it doesn't make sense the XT model to drop at $199 or less unless AMD or Nvidia has a below $399 chip on the market with good availability and without inflation in relation to its SRP (something Navi33 based or AD106 based and these are going to launch according to rumors next year) and AMD must have at that time sufficient Navi23 stock to support the need for such price.
I'm a little pessimistic, i don't think this year 6600XT will fall below $215 but it's just a feeling, i have no data to support a reasoning behind it.
In Black Friday, Cyber Monday etc could happen though!


----------



## ARF (Aug 29, 2022)

It is a question of if AMD or nvidia _*want*_ to push the sales - the sales won't come simply from themselves, there should be a strong driver.
The only driver is pushing the pricings down.

Actually, the 6600 XT is $299 there, I saw a $275 non-XT model which somehow falls in the search list under the XT...


----------



## ModEl4 (Aug 29, 2022)

ARF said:


> It is a question of if AMD or nvidia _*want*_ to push the sales - the sales won't come simply from themselves, there should be a strong driver.
> The only driver is pushing the pricings down.
> 
> Actually, the 6600 XT is $299 there, I saw a $275 non-XT model which somehow falls in the search list under the XT...


I saw it too, it's an eagle 3fan model so somehow it's vying to reach higher status lol

The process of thought for $215 was this:
End of August $295 for 6600XT
Assumption: There will not be a need for market testing/stock moving in RX 6600XT region/competition for more than 10% discount per month (drop it, wait 2 weeks and see the results and then respond again accordingly) so:
1st of September $295
1st of October ≥$265
1st of November ≥$239
1st of December ≥$215
So next year at best case.
This was my napkin math brain fart lol


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 30, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> You mean under $200 for XT, new model with full warranty or used model?



Would obv. prefer new, but used would be fine.  Neither may happen, and that's okay.  A card meaningfully faster than a 3050 will hit that point eventually, and I'm content to wait.



ModEl4 said:


> I saw it too, it's an eagle 3fan model so somehow it's vying to reach higher status lol
> 
> The process of thought for $215 was this:
> End of August $295 for 6600XT
> ...



There seems to be a bit of tension on current US pricing.  Been holding steady for several weeks, or at least looks like it to me.


----------



## ModEl4 (Aug 30, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Would obv. prefer new, but used would be fine.  Neither may happen, and that's okay.  A card meaningfully faster than a 3050 will hit that point eventually, and I'm content to wait.
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be a bit of tension on current US pricing.  Been holding steady for several weeks, or at least looks like it to me.


Same in Europe, but at first i just thought that it was the €/$ exchange rate prospect realization that finally hit importers early August.
I don't want to be a bad influence but i can see a scenario were RX 6600XT don't drop below $239 this year (but for RX 6600 $199 should be possible)


----------



## Sithaer (Aug 30, 2022)

For what its worth the 6600 XT is still 460+ $ where I live, brand new one with VAT included.
Actually from what I noticed in the past weeks the prices going up again a bit instead of going down.

I guess as usual I will turn to the second hand market whenever I decide to upgrade my GPU, I don't mind second hand GPUs as long as they are in a good condition and preferably have some warranty left. _'so far they worked out just fine for me, only had second hand cards in the past 4+ years'_


----------



## StormLightningSL (Aug 30, 2022)

I'm in the market for a higher end current generation card with good ray-tracing, but it's all very depressing for my wallet  The lowest price that I can currently see for top end Nvidia cards is 3080 Ti @ US$1,150 and 3090 Ti @ US$1,700, both including VAT, where I am. Prices for even the lower end cards are still pretty high where I am. For example, a 3060 (non-Ti) is around US$400+.

If I have to wait until Q1/Q2 2023 for the next generation cards to become mainstream, I may not have much of a choice except to splurge on a 3080 Ti if I want my visuals to continue to be worthwhile more than a couple of years down the line. If I want 120fps visuals, I may have to upgrade 2 years down the line because I move to a 4K monitor. I would probably have to spend around US$1,500+ for a 5080 Ti at that time since I assume prices will go up even otherwise (inflation, etc.). I'm wondering if it makes more sense to stretch a bit (a lot, actually) and go with a 3090 Ti now, so it would last me 3-4 years, or wait until Summer 2023 and buy a 4070 / 4070 Ti. If I choose to wait, I will need to spend on a mediocre stand-by card, which will mostly be useless afterwards.


----------



## kapone32 (Aug 30, 2022)

ARF said:


> Yeah, let's agree that the 6600/XT is a card for 1080p medium.
> Which is pathetic for its current price range.


But so is the 3050.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 30, 2022)

StormLightningSL said:


> I'm in the market for a higher end current generation card with good ray-tracing, but it's all very depressing for my wallet  The lowest price that I can currently see for top end Nvidia cards is 3080 Ti @ US$1,150 and 3090 Ti @ US$1,700, both including VAT, where I am. Prices for even the lower end cards are still pretty high where I am. For example, a 3060 (non-Ti) is around US$400+.
> 
> If I have to wait until Q1/Q2 2023 for the next generation cards to become mainstream, I may not have much of a choice except to splurge on a 3080 Ti if I want my visuals to continue to be worthwhile more than a couple of years down the line. If I want 120fps visuals, I may have to upgrade 2 years down the line because I move to a 4K monitor. I would probably have to spend around US$1,500+ for a 5080 Ti at that time since I assume prices will go up even otherwise (inflation, etc.). I'm wondering if it makes more sense to stretch a bit (a lot, actually) and go with a 3090 Ti now, so it would last me 3-4 years, or wait until Summer 2023 and buy a 4070 / 4070 Ti. If I choose to wait, I will need to spend on a mediocre stand-by card, which will mostly be useless afterwards.


The performance difference between a 3080 Ti and 3090 Ti is 10% at 2160p, less at lower resolutions. There is absolutely no possible future scenario in which that 10% difference makes the 3090Ti last you meaningfully longer than the 3080Ti, especially not 3-4 years vs. 2 years. You want 120fps? If the 3090Ti does that, the 3080Ti does ~108fps. If a 3090 Ti does 144fps, the 3080 Ti does ~130fps. You will not notice the difference between the two, and their perceived longevity will be identical. When the 3090 Ti starts falling to 60fps, the 3080 Ti will be right there with it at 54fps. And, quite frankly, at that point you should long since have started lowering settings to maintain your 120+fps.


----------



## StormLightningSL (Sep 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> The performance difference between a 3080 Ti and 3090 Ti is 10% at 2160p, less at lower resolutions. There is absolutely no possible future scenario in which that 10% difference makes the 3090Ti last you meaningfully longer than the 3080Ti, especially not 3-4 years vs. 2 years. You want 120fps? If the 3090Ti does that, the 3080Ti does ~108fps. If a 3090 Ti does 144fps, the 3080 Ti does ~130fps. You will not notice the difference between the two, and their perceived longevity will be identical. When the 3090 Ti starts falling to 60fps, the 3080 Ti will be right there with it at 54fps. And, quite frankly, at that point you should long since have started lowering settings to maintain your 120+fps.


What you are saying makes a lot of sense. Thank you.


----------



## 64K (Sep 1, 2022)

The 3090 Ti isn't really targeted at gaming for the most part. It's a prosumer card.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 1, 2022)

64K said:


> The 3090 Ti isn't really targeted at gaming for the most part. It's a prosumer card.


It's a Titan in reality, it's just that by calling it a Geforce instead they massively increase the target market to include the "have much money, little critical thinking, will buy for status and gear fetishism" crowd. Parts of which of course still bought Titans, but to a lesser degree - it's nominally _not_ a gaming series, after all.


----------



## Arco (Sep 1, 2022)

Must. Buy. Flagship! 

Honestly maybe never. This has really messed up the market.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 1, 2022)

Arco said:


> Must. Buy. Flagship!
> 
> Honestly maybe never. This has really messed up the market.



Funny thing; if you're into flagships, this isn't a bad time to buy.  High-end pricing is more-or-less in line with historical norms.  It's the midrange and lower stuff that's all jacked up.


----------



## Arco (Sep 1, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Funny thing; if you're into flagships, this isn't a bad time to buy.  High-end pricing is more-or-less in line with historical norms.  It's the midrange and lower stuff that's all jacked up.


I'm waiting a bit longer so might as well buy a new flagship.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 1, 2022)

The card that I wanted (a Powercolour 6800 Fighter) has now dropped to £499.  Just that now I don't have the dough for it and have to hope and pray it doesn't sell out.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 1, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Funny thing; if you're into flagships, this isn't a bad time to buy.  High-end pricing is more-or-less in line with historical norms.  It's the midrange and lower stuff that's all jacked up.


Uhm, the $699 1080 Ti wants a word...


----------



## AnotherReader (Sep 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Uhm, the $699 1080 Ti wants a word...


And the $649 980 Ti, $699 780 Ti, $550 290X, $500 GTX 580, $500 GTX 480, $379 5870, and the $400 GTX 285 would like to weigh in too.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Uhm, the $699 1080 Ti wants a word...





AnotherReader said:


> And the ... $699 780 Ti ...



I'll admit that it's definitely on the high side of what could be considered "historical norm".  However, one can buy a 6900 XT for that $699 right now.  3080 ti is another Benjamin-and-a-half, it's true. But we're still dealing with the RTX tax that showed up with the $999 2080 ti.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 1, 2022)

6900XT is 700$...  Cheapest 6900XT in uk is £750.  Makes me sick.


----------



## thelawnet (Sep 1, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Funny thing; if you're into flagships, this isn't a bad time to buy.  High-end pricing is more-or-less in line with historical norms.  It's the midrange and lower stuff that's all jacked up.


Who was ever into flagships that are about to be made obsolete? 

These are two year old cards, a 3090 Ti at $1150 will be matched by a 4070 at like $499. 

Where I am, a 6500 XT is $160, a 6600 is $250, I guess you'd get the $90 back at resale, not to mention the better performance right now, so that's really the only card I'd consider worth buying at the moment (in that - it works, it's not too expensive, you can't lose any more than $250 on it). Spending $1000+ for a card that burns 450W during an era of insane power prices is just about the worst thing you could do.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Sep 1, 2022)

thelawnet said:


> Where I am, a 6500 XT is $160, a 6600 is $250,


$250 doesn't seem too bad a price currently


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 1, 2022)

thelawnet said:


> Who was ever into flagships that are about to be made obsolete?
> 
> These are two year old cards, a 3090 Ti at $1150 will be matched by a 4070 at like $499.
> 
> Where I am, a 6500 XT is $160, a 6600 is $250, I guess you'd get the $90 back at resale, not to mention the better performance right now, so that's really the only card I'd consider worth buying at the moment (in that - it works, it's not too expensive, you can't lose any more than $250 on it). Spending $1000+ for a card that burns 450W during an era of insane power prices is just about the worst thing you could do.



Flagship cards don't make a ton of sense in the first place.  And I'll believe 3090 ti performance from a 4070 for $500 when it happens, and not before.  You can't even get a _*30*_70 for $500.

You're bang on about the 6600. It (and _maybe_ the 6600 XT) is about the best deal going right now.


----------



## thelawnet (Sep 1, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Flagship cards don't make a ton of sense in the first place.


True, but the point is to buy them when they are new and be the best for 2 years, not buy them when they are about to be superseded by something faster, cheaper and more efficient.


----------



## mb194dc (Sep 1, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> 6900XT is 700$...  Cheapest 6900XT in uk is £750.  Makes me sick.



Was £699 at OCUK week or two ago. They've increased £50 it seems. 

Will go lower again soon I think though.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 1, 2022)

mb194dc said:


> Was £699 at OCUK week or two ago. They've increased £50 it seems.
> 
> Will go lower again soon I think though.


Going to get a 6800 for 500.  More than double the power of my 1660 super and should keep me happy for a few years.


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 1, 2022)

stoggs1 said:


> When will gpu prices return to normal.​



When cash opulent big spenders stop throwing chunks of that dosh at expensive high performance graphics cards

When someone stops the worlds powers from encouraging the crypto craze

When the gaming community comes together with one voice... and at any launch/pre-launch doesn't buy a single card until prices drop lol (wouldn't that be nice)

When gamers just settle with 720p on low settings and call it a day

... basically never!


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## ARF (Sep 1, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> When gamers just settle with 720p on low settings and call it a day



This is for sure *never*.
I settle with 2160p medium-high


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## wheresmycar (Sep 1, 2022)

ARF said:


> This is for sure *never*.
> I settle with 2160p medium-high



funny thing is... i invested in a 1440p 144hz panel, and immediately after the GPU market hit a frenzy with never ending increase in price. Even SLI got thrown into the trash can (only remnants remained). No regrets though my then invested 1080 TI lasted me a life time and i dont think I can ever go back after going 1440p


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## Blaeza (Sep 2, 2022)

After getting an rx6800, I'm going 1440p too.  Although could the 6800 do some 4k 60?


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## ARF (Sep 2, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> After getting an rx6800, I'm going 1440p too.  Although could the 6800 do some 4k 60?



Probably 2160p@60, even 2160p@100-120..


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## _JP_ (Sep 2, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> When the gaming community comes together with one voice... and at any launch/pre-launch doesn't buy a single card until prices drop lol (wouldn't that be nice)


First you have to define what a "gaming community" is and then...you realize need a great overlord ruler to actually stop the community from placing the €/$/£/§/etc on the hardware.


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## ARF (Sep 2, 2022)

_JP_ said:


> First you have to define what a "gaming community" is and then...you realize need a great overlord ruler to actually stop the community from placing the €/$/£/§/etc on the hardware.



The gaming community consists of all those who describe themselves as gamers and buy graphics cards to play games.


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## Valantar (Sep 2, 2022)

ARF said:


> The gaming community consists of all those who describe themselves as gamers and buy graphics cards to play games.


And is a "community" only in the broadest possible sense of the word. The idea of any kind of broad-reaching, effective organization among said "community" is utterly utopian.


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## cvaldes (Sep 2, 2022)

ARF said:


> The gaming community consists of all those who describe themselves as gamers and buy graphics cards to play games.


LOL, right...

Look at gaming from the gaming industry perspective: hardware and software creators who collect the revenue.

First of all, the notion of sticking a discrete graphics card into a PC is pretty new. PC gaming was the new kid on the block. There was already a nascent console gaming industry in 1981 when the IBM PC debuted which didn't have a portfolio of games when it launched but things like VisiCalc, WordStar, etc.

Which leads us to the first device type that you missed: console gaming. NES debuted in 1983. Even today, console gaming generates revenue comparable to PC gaming.

The next gaming device category you missed is mobile console. By itself, this is not a big category but it is still significant when today's primary player is Nintendo Switch Lite and the earlier 3DS. They've sold over 120 million units of the more powerful Nintendo Switch (which is tabulated under Home Console gaming as is the Switch Online service).

But there's one more device category...







Source: https://www.data.ai/en/insights/mobile-gaming/2022-gaming-spotlight-report/

See anything you missed?

Do you think the gaming industry doesn't include mobile gaming as part of the community?

Your definition of the gaming community wasn't right twenty years ago and it's even more incorrect today.

Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

I occasionally watch people play games on Twitch and I'm not savvy enough to instantaneously figure out what device the streamer is gaming on. Sometimes it's obvious (Nintendo exclusive titles like the Zelda games), sometimes it's not (Elden Ring or Minecraft for example). If someone configured their iPad to output video, I doubt if I could tell that either from a quick glance.

But regardless of the device the game code is running on, it's all gaming. As a Twitch spectator, it makes no difference to me.

Trust me, AMD doesn't think about gaming as just the people who buy Radeon cards. They'd also include those who buy PS5 and Xbox X/S now.

And Nvidia doesn't think about gaming as just the people who buy GeForce cards. They'd also include Nintendo Switch owners.

And Intel certainly acknowledges the presence of gaming even though their involvement was mostly CPUs and integrated GPUs until a few months ago.

And add companies like Meta/Facebook, Alphabet/Google, Apple, Netflix, Amazon, and others to those whose often large gaming revenue inflows come heavily from mobile platforms.

Do you think EA only thinks of "gaming community" as those individuals who download the PC version of a game from Origin? Like FIFA?


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## ARF (Sep 2, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> LOL, right...
> 
> nonsense



You have to turn to another user, not me.


----------



## outpt (Sep 2, 2022)

Sumbitch I couldn’t wait any longer for prices to return to normal. My backup gpu took a dirt nap and went to gpu heaven(trash can). So I bought a evga 3080ftw3 ultra that was 832.65 cents. Geez this is ridiculous.


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## Vario (Sep 2, 2022)

There seemed to be a ton of graphics cards at my local microcenter.  I think there is a supply glut looming, for now.


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## Arco (Sep 2, 2022)

It's going to be a real banger. I'm going to ride off of sales and the market to get the best performance for my money.


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## wheresmycar (Sep 2, 2022)

Arco said:


> It's going to be a real banger. I'm going to ride off of sales and the market to get the best performance for my money.



i don't know about the rest of the world but here in the UK in the last 5 years the sales have been pants when it comes to popular hardware. Back in the day the sale upshots earned a nice 10%'ish trim on popular mid ranged cards but nowadays anything in the 3060/6600 region or beyond remains the same (extortionate prices to begin with). You do see the odd intentionally overpriced listings with wider discounts but you end up either paying more or the same as the initial listings. Can't speak for previous gen AMD cards though.... i've been eyeing up mostly NVIDIA cards (not anymore though).


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 3, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> i don't know about the rest of the world but here in the UK in the last 5 years the sales have been pants when it comes to popular hardware. Back in the day the sale upshots earned a nice 10%'ish trim on popular mid ranged cards but nowadays anything in the 3060/6600 region or beyond remains the same (extortionate prices to begin with). You do see the odd intentionally overpriced listings with wider discounts but you end up either paying more or the same as the initial listings. Can't speak for previous gen AMD cards though.... i've been eyeing up mostly NVIDIA cards (not anymore though).



There haven't been widespread sales even in the US since the '18 crypto crash that I can remember.  The resurgence of interest in PC gaming (amongst other things) has kept prices up.  If the rumored glut is real, we should be seeing something within the next 6 months or so.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 3, 2022)

I feel that retailers are waiting for the 4k/7k series to drop, and try to keep the price/perf similar to this gen to move old stock. The new ones will sell to those with more cash than sense, and those who MUST upgrade now, and then prices will crash in 6-8 months to around normal for next gen, and deeply discounted for last (this?) gen.


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 3, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> I feel that retailers are waiting for the 4k/7k series to drop, and try to keep the price/perf similar to this gen to move old stock. The new ones will sell to those with more cash than sense, and those who MUST upgrade now, and then prices will crash in 6-8 months to around normal for next gen, and deeply discounted for last (this?) gen.



honestly for 5 years i've heard various convincing projections/possibilities for cards to drop in price. None of them materialized!! Even prior to 5 years, prices were always going up (gen 2 gen). Even the wolf in sheep clothes AMD's at it. I've lost faith in GPU prices reasonably normalizing. Actually the higher premium is the current and enduring norm. If anything is likely to change, its market competition which will slowly bring prices down... IMO you can throw that one out of the window too. I wouldn't be surprised if AMD and Nvidia behind the scenes are pen-pals, cunningly/creatively engineering these similar performance gen to gen upgrades and higher premiums.

Anyhow, if some drastic change in the market was to occur (crash/etc) will it really change everything across the board? People with fat-pocket-dosh will still have fat-pocket-dosh to splash around... can't see flagship/top-end performance cards getting a hit. Maybe a $0.20c cut. Actually if you think about it, 5 of those sales if combined saves 5 lucky buyers a full $1. They can hold hands and pop into a dollar store and buy a 5-pack "hehehe-i-got-a-4090TI-for-$2000" printed socks. Point being more sales for the dollar store creates more jobs for us the minions... so everyone wins.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 3, 2022)

Looking at the chart below, it looks like xx80 series have run around $600 USD (Jan 2017). The 3080 10GB MSRP is $700 USD, and a little fun with an inflation calculator shows that was worth $653 2017 USD at launch, and has declined to $576 2017 USD. The MSRP is not the problem so much as the wildly swinging and never matching supply and demand.


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 3, 2022)

I had a used rtx 3090 headed my way but it never arrived after 2 and half months so I got a full refund. Which I'm glad cause it's gonna go to the rtx 4070 or AMD equivalent if performance per watt are worth it.

That said, I'm still debating on it or just stick to a 6600 or a 3060 as most games are rather pathetic these days anyway.  Something I think most people should be considering - are the games even worth paying a premium in hardware.


----------



## SpittinFax (Sep 3, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> That said, I'm still debating on it or just stick to a 6600 or a 3060 as most games are rather pathetic these days anyway.  Something I think most people should be considering - are the games even worth paying a premium in hardware.



Interesting you mention that. I've found that the real bottleneck is my game library, which is getting old and hasn't seen any new titles added in the last 12 months.

I'm not sure what has happened with the game industry lately but I've checked online stores many times and have consistently found absolutely nothing of interest. On the occasion that I do play, it's usually an old game I'm revisiting or maybe a single round of Rocket League. There's no games out there that I have my eye on at the moment. It's a total yawn-fest.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 3, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Looking at the chart below, it looks like xx80 series have run around $600 USD (Jan 2017). The 3080 10GB MSRP is $700 USD, and a little fun with an inflation calculator shows that was worth $653 2017 USD at launch, and has declined to $576 2017 USD. The MSRP is not the problem so much as the wildly swinging and never matching supply and demand.
> 
> View attachment 260454


That's somewhat misleading though. That chart is explicitly "non-Titan high end GeForce", i.e. it would include the $1199 2080 Ti and the $1499 3090 Ti. Even with that complex graph, even accounting for the 8800GTX, these recent GPUs represent a huge price jump. 80 series MSRPs haven't increase _that_ drastically - though they have increased - but instead Nvidia has kept adding more and more tiers on top. One could say that the 3090 Ti is "actually" a Titan - and it sort of is - but it very crucially isn't in terms of branding, marketing, the overall framing of the product. So using xx80 series - which used to be the undisputed high end - as a linear comparison is now quite misleading.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 3, 2022)

Valantar said:


> That's somewhat misleading though. That chart is explicitly "non-Titan high end GeForce", i.e. it would include the $1199 2080 Ti and the $1499 3090 Ti. Even with that complex graph, even accounting for the 8800GTX, these recent GPUs represent a huge price jump. 80 series MSRPs haven't increase _that_ drastically - though they have increased - but instead Nvidia has kept adding more and more tiers on top. One could say that the 3090 Ti is "actually" a Titan - and it sort of is - but it very crucially isn't in terms of branding, marketing, the overall framing of the product. So using xx80 series - which used to be the undisputed high end - as a linear comparison is now quite misleading.


That is certainly a valid perspective. I agree with it, but you have to realize that if you compare _at the same tier,_ prices are not rising much. The real issue was the shortages, scalping, and obscene markups down the supply chain. IMHO, those will be corrected with a severe glut not long after the first flurry of sales after the next gen drops.


----------



## Sithaer (Sep 3, 2022)

SpittinFax said:


> Interesting you mention that. I've found that the real bottleneck is my game library, which is getting old and hasn't seen any new titles added in the last 12 months.
> 
> I'm not sure what has happened with the game industry lately but I've checked online stores many times and have consistently found absolutely nothing of interest. On the occasion that I do play, it's usually an old game I'm revisiting or maybe a single round of Rocket League. There's no games out there that I have my eye on at the moment. It's a total yawn-fest.



This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently and checking my backlog + new upcoming games.
Fact is that most of the games I'm playing or planning to play, do run just fine on my aging 1070 + I don't mind tweaking settings down to medium-high or so and I don't care about high fps/refresh either. _'75 Hz panel and 45-50 fps on average is all good with me'_

I'm only worried about UE 5 games when they start to be more common/norm like UE 4 games nowadays and this year I'm only waiting for The plague tale requiem and Callisto Protocol.
Ye sure I would also like to play Cyberpunk one day but that I could do already since I tried. _'can't crank up the eye candy but the game looks good enough anyway on tweaked settings+ FSR Ultra'_

Realistically speaking, I don't really need anything stronger than a 6600 XT to last me a few years again with the way I'm playing games. _'I also play less and less nowadays'_
And even this is more of a want than a need I guess._ 'for the time being at least'_

Tho one thing is for sure, I lost hope with our brand new r/etailer prices they aint going down much lately if not even higher recently and I'm not paying 460 $ for a 6600 XT.
On the second hand market its more like 330 $ with some warranty left, that much I would be willing to pay and then sell my 1070 to make up for the cost a bit.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 3, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> That is certainly a valid perspective. I agree with it, but you have to realize that if you compare _at the same tier,_ prices are not rising much. The real issue was the shortages, scalping, and obscene markups down the supply chain. IMHO, those will be corrected with a severe glut not long after the first flurry of sales after the next gen drops.


That's true - and we're already seeing corrections. But there are other factors too, like the ever-increasing BOM costs of newer technologies (more expensive VRAM and more of it; PCIe 4.0 and 5.0 and said VRAM requiring higher grade PCBs; bigger, more expensive VRMs), and the ever increasing range of "acceptable performance" as we've reached an unprecedented point where there are three major resolutions for gaming where the majority of players _aren't_ migrating upwards with any kind of speed - 1080p is _good enough_ for a lot of people, which simply wasn't the case back when the choices were 640x480, 800x600 or 1024x768. So now instead of a relatively narrow range of GPUs (or a lot of choices spaced very closely) we now get GPUs targeting everything from entry-level 1080p low-medium/esports/whatever to 2160p  Ultra 120+ fps. And of course gaming has grown massively, with tons more people - including a lot more rich people - buying gaming hardware. Thus we're getting the doubled effects of SKU compression/value loss at the bottom (due to BOM costs and margins/greed, mainly), and a lot of stretch in the $400+ range, with tons more SKUs at ever higher prices.

And, of course, tiers are ultimately arbitrary - they're just names meant to indicate some sort of hiearchy and a vague kinship - but they could just as well have named the 3090 Ti the 3080 Ti, as that's the role it's actually fulfilling in their lineup - the flagship gaming card. Adhering to previous norms of what used to be the high end tier is just taking something arbitrary and treating it as a rule with some kind of meaning behind it, which it isn't.


SpittinFax said:


> Interesting you mention that. I've found that the real bottleneck is my game library, which is getting old and hasn't seen any new titles added in the last 12 months.
> 
> I'm not sure what has happened with the game industry lately but I've checked online stores many times and have consistently found absolutely nothing of interest. On the occasion that I do play, it's usually an old game I'm revisiting or maybe a single round of Rocket League. There's no games out there that I have my eye on at the moment. It's a total yawn-fest.





Sithaer said:


> This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently and checking my backlog + new upcoming games.
> Fact is that most of the games I'm playing or planning to play, do run just fine on my aging 1070 + I don't mind tweaking settings down to medium-high or so and I don't care about high fps/refresh either. _'75 Hz panel and 45-50 fps on average is all good with me'_
> 
> I'm only worried about UE 5 games when they start to be more common/norm like UE 4 games nowadays and this year I'm only waiting for The plague tale requiem and Callisto Protocol.
> ...


IMO, we're really starting to see the combination of the extreme difficulty of AAA game development (that only gets harder with time as the pressure on graphical fidelity increases), coupled with the games industry over the past decade going through a massive transformation into a thoroughly corporatized money-printing machine. Not that the industry wasn't like this before, it was just on a much smaller scale, and smaller developers had much more of a chance of approximating AAA games in various ways. And the corporate culture of the industry has taken a clear turn towards conservatism and against creativity, churning out ever more sequels and quashing ever more creative products as they're "too risky" - i.e. they don't come with a built-in audience and "guaranteed" profits.

Luckily we have more indie games than ever before, and they're better than ever before - but they also rarely demand much in terms of hardware. Though with UE5, that seems likely to change, and change quickly. It seems insanely simple to create stunningly gorgeous graphics in that engine. And I think the gaming scene is ripe for a new wave of "AA" developers as the AAA industry is slowly choking itself to death - though most of these sadly tend to get acquired (or run into financial issues and either shut down or are forced into bad deals with publishers) due to the massive costs and complexity of development. There have been quite a few with some real success in recent years though, which makes me at least somewhat hopeful. The fledgeling move towards unionization and improved working conditions for developers also has the potential for serious positive effects on the type and quality of games launched - but that also requires us as players to be patient and not be assholes when games inevitably fail to reach their (wildly unrealistic, publisher-set) initial launch dates.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 3, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Though with UE5, that seems likely to change, and change quickly. It seems insanely simple to create stunningly gorgeous graphics in that engine.


The demo they were running was on a PS5 at 4K60 IIRC. And they were using cinematic assets. 

A good sign for those using dated or lower-end hardware. 


Valantar said:


> The fledgeling move towards unionization


I can only hope that works out better than unions in my industry - unions choke creative talent in most manual labor jobs faster than anything else I know. And union contractors are waaaay more expensive. 


Valantar said:


> due to the massive costs and complexity of development.


UE5 could help a lot with that - make it much easier to achieve decent to stunning visuals and focus more on the gameplay.


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 3, 2022)

Im waiting until Black Friday at the least to get a new card. I was going to wait until the 40** come out but rumors are only the 4090 is coming out this year now. Prices are getting a lot better. Amazon and Newegg had the MSI Ventus 3070 on sale for $499 for a few days. A pretty steep discount.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 3, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Im waiting until Black Friday at the least to get a new card. I was going to wait until the 40** come out but rumors are only the 4090 is coming out this year now. Prices are getting a lot better. Amazon and Newegg had the MSI Ventus 3070 on sale for $499 for a few days. A pretty steep discount.


I was going to get a 3070 but AMD is cheaper and better performing in the UK.  £499 for Zotac GeForce RTX 3070 Twin Edge LHR 8GB GDDR6 or £499 for Powercolor Radeon RX 6800 FIGHTER 16GB?


----------



## Lei (Sep 3, 2022)

Well it says game changing, So I guess we'll know the prices for next-gen series on September 20


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 3, 2022)

Game changing for who? Nvidia did change the game last two gens through their extortionist prices!


----------



## ModEl4 (Sep 3, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Im waiting until Black Friday at the least to get a new card. I was going to wait until the 40** come out but rumors are only the 4090 is coming out this year now. Prices are getting a lot better. Amazon and Newegg had the MSI Ventus 3070 on sale for $499 for a few days. A pretty steep discount.


Don't believe the rumors!
Nvidia isn't going to announce in 3 weeks only a model that is ≥$1499 and nothing else regarding ada availability for the rest of 2022.
In the absolute absolute worst case 4080 will launch like 3060Ti in the first week of December and in the most probable case mid to end November.


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 3, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> Don't believe the rumors!
> Nvidia isn't going to announce in 3 weeks only a model that is ≥$1499 and nothing else regarding ada availability for the rest of 2022.
> In the absolute absolute worst case 4080 will launch like 3060Ti in the first week of December and in the most probable case mid to end November.


Thats why I am waiting until at least November. By then we should have some official info on the 40XX. If I cant find a great deal on a 30XX for black friday, ill probably wait for a 40XX. Although I wonder how hard they will be to obtain when they hit the markets.



Blaeza said:


> I was going to get a 3070 but AMD is cheaper and better performing in the UK.  £499 for Zotac GeForce RTX 3070 Twin Edge LHR 8GB GDDR6 or £499 for Powercolor Radeon RX 6800 FIGHTER 16GB?


I struggled with which company to go with for a long time. The lack of vram on the nvidias really gives me pause. I just built my daughter a new computer and went with a RX 6700 XT. AMD is really great price/value. For mine I decided to go with a 12gig (maybe 10 if I find a good deal) nvidia. Mostly due to DLSS, ray tracing and a fair dose of fanboisism.


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 4, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Thats why I am waiting until at least November. By then we should have some official info on the 40XX. If I cant find a great deal on a 30XX for black friday, ill probably wait for a 40XX. Although I wonder how hard they will be to obtain when they hit the markets.
> 
> 
> I struggled with which company to go with for a long time. The lack of vram on the nvidias really gives me pause. I just built my daughter a new computer and went with a RX 6700 XT. AMD is really great price/value. For mine I decided to go with a 12gig (maybe 10 if I find a good deal) nvidia. Mostly due to DLSS, ray tracing and a fair dose of fanboisism.


Mods exist now where enabling DLSS in some titles will actually be FSR 2.0.  I did it with Red Dead Redemption 2 and found the RX 6600 works wonderfully with DLSS enabled.

Ray tracing is fine except that it's a hit with little visual improvement.  What will be the end of it will be the Ray tracing like support you see in resident evil series currently where AMD works well in it.


----------



## ModEl4 (Sep 4, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Thats why I am waiting until at least November. By then we should have some official info on the 40XX. If I cant find a great deal on a 30XX for black friday, ill probably wait for a 40XX. *Although I wonder how hard they will be to obtain when they hit the markets.*
> 
> 
> I struggled with which company to go with for a long time. *The lack of vram on the nvidias really gives me pause*. I just built my daughter a new computer and went with a RX 6700 XT. AMD is really great price/value. For mine I decided to go with a 12gig (maybe 10 if I find a good deal) nvidia. Mostly due to DLSS, ray tracing and a fair dose of fanboisism.


There is a chance Nvidia and AMD will attempt forced fake shortage for the new models in order to create inflation for these models so they don't have to sell too low the old stock.
Also for those that shop around RX580/GTX 1060 price vicinity (≤$249 SRP) there is also a chance we are not going to ever see AD107 outside mobile/workstation/OEM specific models just like what we had for GA107.

At least the last Q, AMD had better deals than Nvidia, selling RX6600 a little bit lower than RTX3050 and also RX6700XT same or a little bit lower than RTX 3060Ti regarding street prices.

Nvidia regarding memory capacity, they are very stingy, it is a way to forcing more frequent upgrades but there is also the memory IC capacity doubling cycle which is increasing with slower pace than the past, so it is more difficult to differentiate the in-between generations from the past regarding memory capacity that for sure Nvidia takes into account choosing spec for each class every generation.

Edit: I really can't understand why RX6600 has so low price (lower than RTX3050), AMD has that much stock of Navi23?
Even if there is a Navi34 design and it comes in Q2 2023, still it wouldn't justify so low pricing in relation with the competition.


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 4, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> Mods exist now where enabling DLSS in some titles will actually be FSR 2.0.  I did it with Red Dead Redemption 2 and found the RX 6600 works wonderfully with DLSS enabled.
> 
> Ray tracing is fine except that it's a hit with little visual improvement.  What will be the end of it will be the Ray tracing like support you see in resident evil series currently where AMD works well in it.


Thats good to know. After Blaeza posted those prices it made me curious and I see I can get a RX 6900 XT for $699 from Newegg. After the info you posted the 6900 XT has definitely made my list to watch for on black friday.



ModEl4 said:


> There is a chance Nvidia and AMD will attempt forced fake shortage for the new models in order to create inflation for these models so they don't have to sell too low the old stock.
> Also for those that shop around RX580/GTX 1060 price vicinity (≤$249 SRP) there is also a chance we are not going to ever see AD107 outside mobile/workstation/OEM specific models just like what we had for GA107.
> 
> At least the last Q, AMD had better deals than Nvidia, selling RX6600 a little bit lower than RTX3050 and also RX6700XT same or a little bit lower than RTX 3060Ti regarding street prices.
> ...


I hope they dont try that. I am no expert on crypto by any means, but I read an article on coindesk that ethereum mining is ending. The speculation is that the glut of used cards that will hit the market will drive prices down even further. I hope the speculation has merit.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 5, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> I hope they dont try that. I am no expert on crypto by any means, but I read an article on coindesk that ethereum mining is ending. The speculation is that the glut of used cards that will hit the market will drive prices down even further. I hope the speculation has merit.



There's only so much they can do.  Fabs need to keep running to get ROI, and the channel can't absorb an unlimited amount of unsold product.  Something's got to give eventually.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 5, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> I can only hope that works out better than unions in my industry - unions choke creative talent in most manual labor jobs faster than anything else I know. And union contractors are waaaay more expensive.


I can't speak to manual labor jobs, but the dampening effect on creativity from unionization in general is _massively_ overblown, and is mainly one of the standard arguments of union busting scaremongering. The dampening effect on creativity of corporate protectionism, profit-seeking and conservatism? That is all the more real, and can be seen in literally every creative field of human activity. As soon as major capital enters the picture, the amount of derivative, soulless, repetitive nonsense explodes. And once major capital takes over, art and creativity essentially dies.

Also: a major part of the point of unionization is to stop the idiotic use of "contractors" in the first places. Give people stable jobs, predictable incomes and safe working conditions so that they can flourish and expand the scope of their work rather than be terrified of where they'll live or how they'll afford food if they don't have their contract renewed.


----------



## 64K (Sep 5, 2022)

Because of the glut of Amperes left unsold prices are dropping but I wouldn't carry that over to the next gen. It is rumored that Nvidia planned to scale back production of new GPUs months ago and that makes sense business-wise. Even if they manage to get rid of the unsold Amperes the world economy looks like we're in for a rough ride for a while and demand for next gen will surely drop but so will supply most likely.


----------



## Lei (Sep 5, 2022)

Now that we're getting closer to the game changing announcement on September 20th


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 5, 2022)

Valantar said:


> I can't speak to manual labor jobs, but the dampening effect on creativity from unionization in general is _massively_ overblown, and is mainly one of the standard arguments of union busting scaremongering. The dampening effect on creativity of corporate protectionism, profit-seeking and conservatism? That is all the more real, and can be seen in literally every creative field of human activity. As soon as major capital enters the picture, the amount of derivative, soulless, repetitive nonsense explodes. And once major capital takes over, art and creativity essentially dies.
> 
> Also: a major part of the point of unionization is to stop the idiotic use of "contractors" in the first places. Give people stable jobs, predictable incomes and safe working conditions so that they can flourish and expand the scope of their work rather than be terrified of where they'll live or how they'll afford food if they don't have their contract renewed.


Contractors as in a company that does contract work - such as all construction companies. 

Anecdotally, I knew a guy who went to work for a union manufacturer - and got fired for fixing a light fixture over his work station. 

Anyways, I will stop posting off topic.


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 5, 2022)

Prices getting better by the day. heres a 3080 ti at best buy for 739 US. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/msi-nv...ress-4-0-graphic-card/6472637.p?skuId=6472637


----------



## P4-630 (Sep 5, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Prices getting better by the day. heres a 3080 ti at best buy for 739 US. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/msi-nv...ress-4-0-graphic-card/6472637.p?skuId=6472637



Living the dream right?...

Now find me a 700 EUR one in Europe....


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 5, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Contractors as in a company that does contract work - such as all construction companies.
> 
> Anecdotally, I knew a guy who went to work for a union manufacturer - and got fired for fixing a light fixture over his work station.
> 
> Anyways, I will stop posting off topic.


It can work both ways. My Dad and 2 of my uncles retired from General Motors and were part of the UAW. My Uncle was in a bad way and would come to work drunk and on a couple of occasions passed out on the floor. UAW wouldnt let GM fire him. Eventually he threatened to kill someone so they forced him into early retirement. Growing up in Union families im of mixed feelings towards them. Ultimately I see them as a lesser evil.



P4-630 said:


> Living the dream right?...
> 
> Now find me a 700 EUR one in Europe....


Black Friday cant come soon enough.


----------



## Palladium (Sep 5, 2022)

Maybe the GPU industry realized the market of "paying through the nose to play forgettable glorified rendered movies" wasn't as big as they thought.


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 5, 2022)

Palladium said:


> Maybe the GPU industry realized the market of "paying through the nose to play forgettable glorified rendered movies" wasn't as big as they thought.


I say.

Currently playing Dragons Dogma again preparing myself for the second game.  At that, I doubt the second one will require more than a 3060 for high res, high quality settings.


----------



## StormLightningSL (Sep 6, 2022)

It seems the general outlook here is to just WAIT for a better deal, which will probably make it come sooner. 

Speaking for myself, I decided to salvage an old R9 290 card from a really old PC I had in my garage and use it in my main PC for the time being. I've decided to wait for the new series of graphics cards to be announced and take a call based on how things are afterwards.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 6, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Contractors as in a company that does contract work - such as all construction companies.
> 
> Anecdotally, I knew a guy who went to work for a union manufacturer - and got fired for fixing a light fixture over his work station.


I know traditional US unions have a long history of being quite problematic in various ways - from mob ties to extreme protectionism - but this is mostly not applicable to unionization drives in the games industry, and can also to some extent be attributed to their extremely precarious position being under massive, concerted attack by union-busting companies and politicians supporting them. A system dead set on dismantling any sign of worker solidarity isn't likely to foster open and flexible unions, as that would be suicide for them. It's quite telling that the types of stories like the one you mentioned here are almost completely exclusive to the US, despite other countries being _far_ more thoroughly unionized.

Back on topic though, contractors in the games industry (or tech industry more broadly) generally don't work like that. For the most part, they're working persistent full time jobs, but corporations prefer to hire them as contractors rather than give them actual jobs as that is cheaper and less risky for the corporation. There is also of course short-term contractor work (not all jobs are needed throughout the entire production cycle of a game), but it's quite telling that smaller studios tend to use a lower degree of contractors than bigger ones, when the larger ones ought to have more flexibility in finding new work for someone whose role in a particular project has ended. In short: corporations in late capitalism work concertedly and actively towards making work more precarious and less stable, as that increases their power over workers. This, in combination with a whole host of other common practices (such as risk-averse project planning, impatience surrounding launches, and various 'design by committee' issues) have a significant dampening effect on creativity.


----------



## ARF (Sep 7, 2022)

Soon...

Double the performance 




NVIDIA GeForce RTX 40 Graphics Card Rumored To Offer Over Over 2x Gaming Performance Versus RTX 30 Series (wccftech.com)


----------



## SpittinFax (Sep 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> Soon...
> 
> Double the performance
> 
> ...



No way I would ever trust the data in that graph. Not because I don't think 2x performance isn't possible, but because of the commas being used as decimal points and the very neatly rounded-off values that have no connection with real data. Not exactly the work of a professional.

But nonetheless, this is very good. Plenty of people will still take it at face value and sell their cards at ridiculously low prices to prepare for an upgrade. So it's beneficial for the rest of us.


----------



## ppn (Sep 7, 2022)

Double compared to what. 3090 - >4090 is doable. 10752 @ 1,8 GHz - > 18432 CUDA @ 2,8GHz is more than double actually.
but the rest are crippled to oblivion 3080 to 4080 barely any CUDA added 8704 to 9728 and a 160 bit bus 4070 just terrible.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 7, 2022)

SpittinFax said:


> No way I would ever trust the data in that graph. Not because I don't think 2x performance isn't possible, but because of the commas being used as decimal points and the very neatly rounded-off values that have no connection with real data. Not exactly the work of a professional.
> 
> But nonetheless, this is very good. Plenty of people will still take it at face value and sell their cards at ridiculously low prices to prepare for an upgrade. So it's beneficial for the rest of us.


There are many languages in which commas are the correct decimal indicator, so all that would indicate is the likelihood of whoever made the graph not being a native English speaker. As for the rounded-off values: that's typical PR stuff. Hardly surprising. Still, as most of us here know, waiting for reviews is the way to go, with even official launch specs and first party performance numbers only being grounds for speculation, and "leaks" like this having a _very_ high error rate.


----------



## ARF (Sep 7, 2022)

ppn said:


> Double compared to what. 3090 - >4090 is doable. 10752 @ 1,8 GHz - > 18432 CUDA @ 2,8GHz is more than double actually.
> but the rest are crippled to oblivion 3080 to 4080 barely any CUDA added 8704 to 9728 and a 160 bit bus 4070 just terrible.



This could create very large performance gaps inside that new lineup. 
We need more performance in the low end, not to make the high end super fast and everything else mediocre compared to it.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> This could create very large performance gaps inside that new lineup.
> We need more performance in the low end, not to make the high end super fast and everything else mediocre compared to it.



It's more like the low end and midrange need to slide down the price scale.  I was very surprised to find that the 6600 XT performs better relative to contemporary releases than the GTX 970, widely considered a historical value champ, did in its day.  But no cards worth having at the USD200 price point and lower is BS.

EDIT:  The 6600 XT is priced around the GTX 970's launch price in the US as of this post.


----------



## ARF (Sep 7, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> It's more like the low end and midrange need to slide down the price scale.  I was very surprised to find that the 6600 XT performs better relative to contemporary releases than the GTX 970, widely considered a historical value champ, did in its day.



GTX 970 was much, much closer to the flagship - the GTX 980 Ti, back in its day..

GTX 970 100%
GTX 980 114%
GTX 980 Ti 131%









						NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970 Specs
					

NVIDIA GM204, 1178 MHz, 1664 Cores, 104 TMUs, 56 ROPs, 4096 MB GDDR5, 1753 MHz, 256 bit




					www.techpowerup.com
				




Radeon RX 6600 XT 100%
Radeon RX 6650 XT 102%
Radeon RX 6700 XT 114%
Radeon RX 6750 XT 123%
Radeon RX 6800 145%
Radeon RX 6800 XT 166%
Radeon RX 6900 XT 180%
Radeon RX 6950 XT 191%









						AMD Radeon RX 6600 XT Specs
					

AMD Navi 23, 2589 MHz, 2048 Cores, 128 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 128 bit




					www.techpowerup.com
				





The 6600 XT is so slow, it's crazy. Never going to buy it..


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> GTX 970 was much, much closer to the flagship - the GTX 980 Ti, back in its day..
> 
> GTX 970 100%
> GTX 980 114%
> ...



Nobody's asking you to.  But the bar for a flagship has been raised significantly.  As has the amount of money they cost and power they pull.  Not to mention the sheer number of products in the stack.  The fact that Veyrons and Zondas exist doesn't make a Corvette or Z car slow.

GTX 970 - 148W/$330
GTX 980 ti - 250W/$650

6600 XT - 160W/$380*
6950 XT - 335W/$1100**

If you constrain for power, the 980 ti's equivalent in that list is the RX 6800, which is 250W and currently $600 (the XT can be had for about the same money, somehow).  The 6600 XT admittedly doesn't look as good from that perspective.  The 6700 XT fits in better if one looks at percentile gaps, though now you're looking at 230W.

And perspective's what it's all bout, innit?  I tend to ask, what gets me an acceptable level of performance for the least amount of cash?  You appear to give more weight to where a card sits in the product stack than I.  There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it's something I don't personally understand.

I was about to leave it there, but find myself stuck on this question:  If the 6600 XT manages better average framerates in tested games than the 970 did when it was new, why is the 6600 XT slow, but the GTX 970 not?

* Launch price; current street price starts at $330
** Launch price; current street price starts at $850


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 7, 2022)

stoggs1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> So I am in the process of building a new system and I am looking to buy a new gpu as part as my new build but gpu prices right now are insane.  I was thinking of getting an rtx 2070 used but the cheapest I have seen one on the used marked was still over $500.
> 
> ...


When crypto miners will stop buying graphics cards enmasse then the prices will drop to what they were in 2012 (a top-of-the-line graphics card for $500) but this will not happen during the upcoming graphics card generations from both nVidia and AMD which will be overpriced so start voting with your wallets and stop purchasing overpriced graphics cards.


----------



## ARF (Sep 7, 2022)

Which process node will be the last?
When will the time be when we won't need new graphics cards?


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 7, 2022)

SpittinFax said:


> commas being used as decimal points


This is normal in parts of europe.



Mikael Andersson said:


> When crypto miners will stop buying graphics cards enmasse then the prices will drop to what they were in 2012 (a top-of-the-line graphics card for $500) but this will not happen during the upcoming graphics card generations from both nVidia and AMD which will be overpriced so start voting with your wallets and stop purchasing overpriced graphics cards.


Eth goes PoS like literally within 3 days.  Mining is already nearly a nonfactor.


----------



## ARF (Sep 7, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> This is normal in parts of europe.



In SAP and Microsoft's Calculator app:


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 7, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> This is normal in parts of europe.
> 
> 
> Eth goes PoS like literally within 3 days.  Mining is already nearly a nonfactor.


Then stop paying $1000 for a graphics card that should cost $500.


----------



## KLiKzg (Sep 7, 2022)

Will this ETH merge finally going to make some crypters sell out their GPUs? What do you think?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> The 6600 XT is so slow, it's crazy. Never going to buy it..


Quite the opposite, actually. It's flagships that have taken off in performance. The mid-range has absolutely stagnated in price/perf (at least at MSRP), but the 6600 and 6600 XT are still plenty fast for what they do.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 8, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> Then stop paying $1000 for a graphics card that should cost $500.


I do what I want, thanks.  Prices are falling as of now, not rising.


----------



## _JP_ (Sep 8, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> Then stop paying $1000 for a graphics card that should cost $500.


Leaving $500 on the counter for a card listed at $1000 still counts as theft, from the retailer's POV.

Unrelated to that, still not feeling the market dropping prices here. €20~€100 at best, because of "sales".


----------



## tussinman (Sep 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Quite the opposite, actually. It's flagships that have taken off in performance. The mid-range has absolutely stagnated in price/perf (at least at MSRP), but the 6600 and 6600 XT are still plenty fast for what they do.


He's now going to do what happened last time someone said the 6600XT is a decent value, he's going to start spamming 4k benchmark charts and ranting that "see it's too slow" even though literally nobody is buying a midrange card to play very high settings at 4k....... (lol)


----------



## SpittinFax (Sep 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> There are many languages in which commas are the correct decimal indicator, so all that would indicate is the likelihood of whoever made the graph not being a native English speaker. As for the rounded-off values: that's typical PR stuff. Hardly surprising. Still, as most of us here know, waiting for reviews is the way to go, with even official launch specs and first party performance numbers only being grounds for speculation, and "leaks" like this having a _very_ high error rate.



Well today I learn. That'd be super confusing.


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 8, 2022)

SpittinFax said:


> Well today I learn. That'd be super confusing.


Never go into international purchasing. 

On an unrelated note, I read that miners are attempting a hard fork of Ethereum to prevent the Merge - and many are jumping ship to ETC. Not good - I really hope the value of ETC mining falls as more jump into it, and I REALLY REALLY hope the hard fork fails hard.


----------



## Mister300 (Sep 8, 2022)

My take on pricing
1.  Poor die yield at EUV litho scale.
2.  ROI comes up very quick when people expect new GPUs every year.  Didn't NVDIA give ASML 5 billion just to reserve EUV time (40XX series)?  You know the stockholders want this back ASAP.
3.  The days of AMD offering a competitive product at reduced pricing are over.  My old 390X at 350 USD was the last great price to performance card.  People paying well over depreciated value on older GPU is a money losing venture.  
4.  Easy money allows the buyer to buy a card over time through financing.  So no need to drive price down.  PayPal gave me 6 mo. no interest.  So a 1000 USD Zotac 3080 is paid off in 3 months.  The mind is a strange animal, people will spend 7 bucks at Starbucks for coffee every day with zero complaints.  If I divide 1000/365 days I pay 2.74 USD for the 3080 GPU.  The coffee is almost 2.5x more expensive than the GPU.


----------



## ARF (Sep 8, 2022)

tussinman said:


> He's now going to do what happened last time someone said the 6600XT is a decent value, he's going to start spamming 4k benchmark charts and ranting that "see it's too slow" even though literally nobody is buying a midrange card to play very high settings at 4k....... (lol)



People say it's bad. And it is bad..

Insulting bad value:









Worse than expected. It has issues:









AMD’s RX 6600 XT is fine. It’s alright, from a benchmarks standpoint, but it’s also a display of stagnation in a market that is easy to exploit. AMD’s 6600 XT has strayed from value:









I don't think anyone is happy with this card's performance - 128-bit bus, GDDR6 non-X VRAM, literally no performance improvement over the old 5700 XT for the same price, terrible ray-tracing performance.



> this cache is relatively small with just 32 MB (Navi 22: 96 MB, Navi 21: 128 MB)





> If we look at higher resolutions, especially 4K, we can see the RX 6600 XT fall behind quite a bit. The primary reason for that is that the L3 cache is rather small with just 32 MB





> Raytracing performance is challenging, though. While the card has hardware-acceleration for RT, the performance hit is just too big to make this a viable card for 1080p raytracing, as you'll drop well below 60 FPS in most titles. NVIDIA definitely has the upper hand here. The RTX 3060 and 3060 Ti are roughly twice as fast in raytracing due to additional hardware units.





> What's surprising is that the Radeon RX 6600 XT does not support the full PCI-Express x16 interface, only x8. While I suspect this is a design choice that originated from laptops, where a wider bus isn't needed, desktops could definitely run into performance limitations when operating at x8. While it's certainly not a big deal for PCIe x8 4.0, running the Radeon RX 6600 XT in an older computer will have it operate at PCIe x8 3.0, which reduces the bandwidth significantly, resulting in a loss of a few percent in performance in general, with bigger losses and stuttering in specific games that move a lot of data across the bus.



MSI Radeon RX 6600 XT Gaming X Review - Value & Conclusion | TechPowerUp


----------



## tussinman (Sep 8, 2022)

ARF said:


> People say it's bad. And it is bad..


Those videos are literally a joke and hold zero merit. All of those youtube guys where extremely pissy and jaded last year due to the fake MSRPS and soaring prices. Obviously that has no merit on present day when those 2 cards are currently 20-25% below MSRP and currently way better values then both the RTX 3050 and RTX 3060. 

The quote I originally quoted ("The mid-range has absolutely stagnated in price/perf (at least at MSRP), but the 6600 and 6600 XT are still plenty fast for what they do") was hardly controversial, especially in my area (fringe RTX 2080 for as low as $265-280 USD is far from awful value). 



ARF said:


> Insulting bad value:


Literally those 4 things you quoted have actual zero substance for a midrange buyer. A midrange buyer does not care about 4k or raytracing (nobody with half a brain is going to cripple FPS performance on 2 highend gimmicks, those 2 things are geared for enthusiast that actually have the extra horsepower). Your 3rd bullet point of PCI Xpress interference has already been re-tested on both cards and saw less than 2% difference (which is so small it's within the actual margin of error). Your 4th point of cache literally nobody outside of the forum even knowns it's a thing or what it actually does so once again, midrange buyers literally don't give a crap


----------



## ARF (Sep 8, 2022)

6600 / 6600 XT is not mid-range. The 6700 XT is mid-range.

The 6600 / 6600 XT is some type of hybrid between entry level and mid-range.


----------



## tussinman (Sep 8, 2022)

ARF said:


> 6600 / 6600 XT is not mid-range. The 6700 XT is mid-range.
> 
> The 6600 / 6600 XT is some type of hybrid between entry level and mid-range.


Then that makes your point even weaker, a potential buyer whose supposedly "not even real midrange" literally doesn't care about the things your complaining about (ray tracing, 4k, cache, and maxing out bandwidth interfaces)


----------



## ARF (Sep 8, 2022)

tussinman said:


> Then that makes your point even weaker, a potential buyer whose supposedly "not even real midrange" literally doesn't care about the things your complaining about (ray tracing, 4k, cache, and maxing out bandwidth interfaces)



Non-sense. Why does Nvidia absolutely dominate the market with 80% vs miserable 20% for Radeon? Because "people don't care"?


----------



## tussinman (Sep 8, 2022)

ARF said:


> Non-sense. Why does Nvidia absolutely dominate the market with 80% vs miserable 20% for Radeon? Because "people don't care"?


Yeah your 100% correct. Those RTX 3050 owners (same price as the 6600XT and more expense then the 6600) are all doing 4k gaming with ray tracing and there all analyzing there cache and bandwidth for optimal performance 

Yeah those "fake midrangers" really do care


----------



## ARF (Sep 8, 2022)

tussinman said:


> Yeah your 100% correct. Those RTX 3050 owners (same price as the 6600XT and more expense then the 6600) are all doing 4k gaming with ray tracing and there all analyzing there cache and bandwidth for optimal performance
> 
> Yeah those "fake midrangers" really do care



The psychology of the human being is that they always look to get as much as possible and if possible nothing in return.
There are two cases:
1. First case - the card is cheap, the customer is super happy, the supplier not happy at all because "profit margins";
2. Second case - the card is super expensive, the customer hates it, but the supplier is super happy because "money".

So, if the customer can get a 4K card for $200, they will be happy.
Now, the customer has no choice - so claiming they don't care is a bit comedy.


----------



## ppn (Sep 8, 2022)

We are pretty close to getting a 4K card for $200, 6600 is 239 with rebates, but im waiting for the 7600 since it provides double the Processors. Well those are fake now, of course just like Nvidia. but 25% improvement is very welcome if it can reach RTX 2080 level. Oh the wait a terrible situation to be in.

And we have to define 4K60 now, this year it runs 4K at high with some features off, next year at medium, next at low, and then can't run 4K anymore. such is the deal.

Actually I can't justify paying more than the surface area, for a 239 mm2, i'm willing to pay $239, for a 400mm2 that would be $400 ish for the cut down gimped die, and above that things go a bit insane. Not to mention the bitness of the bus that has to follow the same rule. But im willing to let that slide for now.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 8, 2022)

_JP_ said:


> Leaving $500 on the counter for a card listed at $1000 still counts as theft, from the retailer's POV.
> 
> Unrelated to that, still not feeling the market dropping prices here. €20~€100 at best, because of "sales".


When the RDNA3 graphics cards becomes available for purchase the prices *will* drop on the previous generation of cards.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 8, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I do what I want, thanks.  Prices are falling as of now, not rising.


I disagree.  I was excited as hell that the 6800 Fighter had dropped to £499.99.  Now it's jumped back up £558!!!  It may be isolated, but it's pissed off me massively.


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 8, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> When the RDNA3 graphics cards becomes available for purchase the prices *will* drop on the previous generation of cards.


Just like they did with 5700XT... oops.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 8, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Just like they did with 5700XT... oops.


There were still a mining craze back then.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 8, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Never go into international purchasing.
> 
> On an unrelated note, I read that miners are attempting a hard fork of Ethereum to prevent the Merge - and many are jumping ship to ETC. Not good - I really hope the value of ETC mining falls as more jump into it, and I REALLY REALLY hope the hard fork fails hard.


Is anyone surprised by this?


ARF said:


> People say it's bad. And it is bad..
> 
> Insulting bad value:
> 
> ...


I mean, that's a nice highly selective interpretation of what they're saying? Remember: _all_ their criticisms stem from two factors: high MSRPs, and higher street prices. Today, prices are far lower than this. That obviously doesn't excuse the silly high MSRPs, which are indeed still terrible value, but luckily that's no longer representative of on-the-ground reality.


ARF said:


> 6600 / 6600 XT is not mid-range. The 6700 XT is mid-range.
> 
> The 6600 / 6600 XT is some type of hybrid between entry level and mid-range.


... what? No. A $479 GPU is not "mid-range". That's on the border of mid-range and high-end at best. The 6600 is a solid lower mid-range option, the 6600 XT is smack-dab mid-range.


ARF said:


> Non-sense. Why does Nvidia absolutely dominate the market with 80% vs miserable 20% for Radeon? Because "people don't care"?


Because Nvidia has an entrenched market position and a decade+ of massive mindshare advantage, leading to most GPU buyers not even considering other GPU makers, as in their mind, GPU = Geforce. This is applicable to a _vast_ proportion of GPU and gaming PC buyers - they either have a strong pro-Nvidia bias, or actually don't know that there are other options out there. Nvidia's mindshare advantage for GPUs is _massively_ stronger than what Intel had in CPUs back in 2017, and it still took AMD 3+ years of offering _far_ better value, _and_ ultimately overall better performance to get ahead in that regard in the CPU space. So, for AMD to overcome Nvidia's mindshare advantage it would still need years and years and years of offering superior products for better prices. And that's a damn tall order.

You're arguing as if markets are rational and meritocratic. They are no such thing - not even close. This is a convenient fiction that capitalists like to espouse as it legitimizes their wealth and exploitation, but it is just that: fiction. Markets are fundamentally irrational, and who comes out on top is a complex mix of luck, timing, funding, access, politics, marketing, and product quality - with the latter arguably being among the least important factors.


----------



## StormLightningSL (Sep 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Because Nvidia has an entrenched market position and a decade+ of massive mindshare advantage, leading to most GPU buyers not even considering other GPU makers, as in their mind, GPU = Geforce. This is applicable to a _vast_ proportion of GPU and gaming PC buyers - they either have a strong pro-Nvidia bias, or actually don't know that there are other options out there. Nvidia's mindshare advantage for GPUs is _massively_ stronger than what Intel had in CPUs back in 2017, and it still took AMD 3+ years of offering _far_ better value, _and_ ultimately overall better performance to get ahead in that regard in the CPU space. So, for AMD to overcome Nvidia's mindshare advantage it would still need years and years and years of offering superior products for better prices. And that's a damn tall order.


This is so true. Where I am, most small system-builders/sellers are not even willing to offer AMD PCs. It's Intel and Nvidia only. I don't know whether they get better margins on Intel/Nvidia components, but I think this has more to do with the driver compatibility and stability issues that plagued AMD products at one time, which would have meant more service-related calls for these small players.

Even though things have improved so much now in terms of the red team's offerings, there is still a lot of "hate" for AMD products. In a price sensitive market which has very low end-user expertise, the perception of having delivered a quality product coupled with the higher costs of after-sales service calls would matter a lot for small players, especially when the margins are thin.



Valantar said:


> You're arguing as if markets are rational and meritocratic. They are no such thing - not even close. This is a convenient fiction that capitalists like to espouse as it legitimizes their wealth and exploitation, but it is just that: fiction. Markets are fundamentally irrational, and who comes out on top is a complex mix of luck, timing, funding, access, politics, marketing, and product quality - with the latter arguably being among the least important factors.


This ^^^^^. Very well put!


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 8, 2022)

StormLightningSL said:


> This is so true. Where I am, most small system-builders/sellers are not even willing to offer AMD PCs. It's Intel and Nvidia only. I don't know whether they get better margins on Intel/Nvidia components, but I think this has more to do with the driver compatibility and stability issues that plagued AMD products at one time, which would have meant more service-related calls for these small players.
> 
> Even though things have improved so much now in terms of the red team's offerings, there is still a lot of "hate" for AMD products. In a price sensitive market which has very low end-user expertise, the perception of having delivered a quality product coupled with the higher costs of after-sales service calls would matter a lot for small players, especially when the margins are thin.
> 
> ...


AMD's / ATI's buggy GPU drivers goes back more than twenty years... if AMD wants to beat nVidia in sales then they *have to* fix this.


----------



## Arco (Sep 8, 2022)

I don't think GPU prices will return to normal after the past few years. Inflation, covid, scalpers, miners, you name it. 

Pretty sad I didn't get to build before this but whatever.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 8, 2022)

Arco said:


> I don't think GPU prices will return to normal after the past few years. Inflation, covid, scalpers, miners, you name it.
> 
> Pretty sad I didn't get to build before this but whatever.



i think exactly the opposite. We are now in a recession, inflation is not going anywhere, things will only get worst before they get better. AMD and NVDA need to show profits, demand is going down for some time now, and it will only get worst. Things don't sell in a recession with higher prices, even if they want to play MSRP crazyness you will see a lot of discounted GPU's in the future.

And the cherry on top is they have committed space on TSMC, so they can't really just artificially create a supply shortage, unless they start burying them somewhere.


----------



## Arco (Sep 8, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> i think exactly the opposite. We are now in a recession, inflation is not going anywhere, things will only get worst before they get better. AMD and NVDA need to show profits, demand is going down for some time now, and it will only get worst. Things don't sell in a recession with higher prices, even if they want to play MSRP crazyness you will see a lot of discounted GPU's in the future.
> 
> And the cherry on top is they have committed space on TSMC, so they can't really just artificially create a supply shortage, unless they start burying them somewhere.


Yeah, for better or worse but definitely not normal.

Oh yeah, get screwed.


----------



## ppn (Sep 8, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I disagree.  I was excited as hell that the 6800 Fighter had dropped to £499.99.  Now it's jumped back up £558!!!  It may be isolated, but it's pissed off me massively.



This rebound could be a good sign, suppliers are running out of the inventory. And newegg has very few of them left. 6800 XT is a better deal. But none of the deals in the time just before the next gen are any good over all. It's yeah happy happy, and 7800 turns out to be 25-50% faster for the same price at less power for example. I wouldn't even consider 7000 or 40 series before 6000 and 16/20/30 series are gone for good. The only good time to buy is the first possible day. Any day later and it's already obsolete


----------



## Lei (Sep 8, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1566764876558901249


----------



## Valantar (Sep 8, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> AMD's / ATI's buggy GPU drivers goes back more than twenty years... if AMD wants to beat nVidia in sales then they *have to* fix this.


You seem not to have kept track of AMD drivers in the past ... oh, seven years or so. They _have_ fixed this. Are they entirely bug-free? Of course not. Neither are Nvidia. The 5700 XT was a major exception (though there are indications of that not being a pure driver thing - after all, other SKUs in the same series, even using the same GPU, didn't have the same issues), but beyond that, AMD drivers generally work very well these days. They're not _quite_ up to Nvidia's speed for bug fixes or troubleshooting, but considering the size (and thus budget) disparity they're pretty much as close as one could expect.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 8, 2022)

ppn said:


> This rebound could be a good sign, suppliers are running out of the inventory. And newegg has very few of them left. 6800 XT is a better deal. But none of the deals in the time just before the next gen are any good over all. It's yeah happy happy, and 7800 turns out to be 25-50% faster for the same price at less power for example. I wouldn't even consider 7000 or 40 series before 6000 and 16/20/30 series are gone for good. The only good time to buy is the first possible day. Any day later and it's already obsolete


6800XT may be a better deal but I do not have the funds for that better deal.  Unless your paying, that is?


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> You seem not to have kept track of AMD drivers in the past ... oh, seven years or so. They _have_ fixed this. Are they entirely bug-free? Of course not. Neither are Nvidia. The 5700 XT was a major exception (though there are indications of that not being a pure driver thing - after all, other SKUs in the same series, even using the same GPU, didn't have the same issues), but beyond that, AMD drivers generally work very well these days. They're not _quite_ up to Nvidia's speed for bug fixes or troubleshooting, but considering the size (and thus budget) disparity they're pretty much as close as one could expect.


I haven't had a non-nVidia GPU since my HD 4890.
The drivers for the 5700 XT were plagued with bugs so I'm glad that I dodged that one with purchasing a used GTX 1080 Ti instead.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> You seem not to have kept track of AMD drivers in the past ... oh, seven years or so. They _have_ fixed this. Are they entirely bug-free? Of course not. Neither are Nvidia. The 5700 XT was a major exception (though there are indications of that not being a pure driver thing - after all, other SKUs in the same series, even using the same GPU, didn't have the same issues), but beyond that, AMD drivers generally work very well these days. They're not _quite_ up to Nvidia's speed for bug fixes or troubleshooting, but considering the size (and thus budget) disparity they're pretty much as close as one could expect.



you can't really say "they fixed it" and then present that insane disaster that was rdna1. Saying rdna1 was the exception is as valid as saying rdna2 was the exception. Anyway i don't care about teams, but AMD drivers are shit compared to Nvidia. I just update and forget about it on Nvidia. On AMD we have to downgrade all the time for whatever issue. And Adrenaline is a bug fest.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 8, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> I haven't had a non-nVidia GPU since my HD 4890.
> The drivers for the 5700 XT were plagued with bugs so I'm glad that I dodged that one with purchasing a used GTX 1080 Ti instead.


But that's exactly the thing: those weren't necessarily driver bugs - it was clearly a more complex issue than that, seeing how dependent issues were on system configurations, specific hardware components, etc. - and how the RX 5700, 5600 XT and 5500 XT lacked the same issues.


Bomby569 said:


> you can't really say "they fixed it" and then present that insane disaster that was rdna1. Saying rdna1 was the exception is as valid as saying rdna2 was the exception. Anyway i don't care about teams, but AMD drivers are shit compared to Nvidia. I just update and forget about it on Nvidia. On AMD we have to downgrade all the time for whatever issue. And Adrenaline is a bug fest.


So, first off, you know that AMD has released quite a few generations of GPUs in the past decade, right? You're making it sound like there have been two, RDNA and RDNA2, and one of those had issues. This is what we adults call a false equivalency.

Second, _RDNA _did not have driver issues. _The RX 5700 XT_ had a complex set of issues that no doubt involved drivers, but was far more complex than a simple driver bug - if it was a driver bug and nothing else, it would have been fixed long ago. The best answer to what that issue was seems to be some weird interactions between specific models of hardware, drivers, firmware, and more. Remember, there are tons of reports of the same GPU being moved to a new PC, running the exact same OS, drivers and software, and having zero issues. Also, other RDNA1 GPUs than the RX 5700 XT had _far_ fewer issues. That also doesn't mean that the same issues weren't seen at all outside of the RX 5700 XT, but they were _far_ more rare, indicating that there was something about either the hardware, firmware, or both of the RX 5700 XT that caused these issues. And, crucially, that's not a driver bug. It's still not acceptable - IMO everyone experiencing this issue should have been offered a refund - but it's not a driver issue, nor is the failure to entirely remedy the issue the fault of AMD's driver team.

Also, where are you having to downgrade? I haven't downgraded a GPU driver since my Fury X. And that's across that Fury X, an RX 570, an RX 6900 XT and just recently an RX 6600. Saying AMD drivers are shit is just FUD. It's nonsense. They're absolutely not perfect, but they are perfectly fine. And if by 'Adrenalie' you mean what used to be called Radeon Software (now AMD Software, IIRC), once again: what you're saying doesn't line up with my experiences whatsoever. You might have had issues - but then there are people who have had persistent black screen bug issues with Nvidia drivers - for years! - too. Bugs happen. Bad luck happens. Having a bad experience doesn't mean your experience is universal - just like having a good experience doesn't mean that either. The truth is, as always, somewhere in between. But what you're saying here is just nonsense.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 8, 2022)

Valantar said:


> But that's exactly the thing: those weren't necessarily driver bugs - it was clearly a more complex issue than that, seeing how dependent issues were on system configurations, specific hardware components, etc. - and how the RX 5700, 5600 XT and 5500 XT lacked the same issues.
> 
> So, first off, you know that AMD has released quite a few generations of GPUs in the past decade, right? You're making it sound like there have been two, RDNA and RDNA2, and one of those had issues. This is what we adults call a false equivalency.
> 
> ...




i also owned 2 polaris cards, worked flawless, but that's old tech. We should be talking about RDNA, same tech. Or next we will be discussing the riva tnt or fermi. I only owned the 5700, not exactly sure if the other 5*** cards have issues so i can't argue there, i sold it and never looked back, don't know, don't care. I could look it up but i don't wanna. Still it was the flagship.


----------



## tussinman (Sep 8, 2022)

ARF said:


> Now, the customer has no choice - so claiming they don't care is a bit comedy.


No that was my exact point. Harping about features that nobody in that price bracket will ever get and has never gotten is you just being a drama queen. You can't claim Nvidia cares about those things and the buyers agrees when literally nobody in that nvidia price bracket is getting the things your complaining about


----------



## ARF (Sep 8, 2022)

tussinman said:


> No that was my exact point. Harping about features that nobody in that price bracket will ever get and has never gotten is you just being a drama queen. You can't claim Nvidia cares about those things and the buyers agrees when literally nobody in that nvidia price bracket is getting the things your complaining about



Never say never. You will be disappointed about your bad prediction.
4K will be a new mainstream soon enough.

Already 8K TVs are being shipped and prepared for sales worldwide.

The market will not suffer vacuum in the offers.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 8, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I disagree.  I was excited as hell that the 6800 Fighter had dropped to £499.99.  Now it's jumped back up £558!!!  It may be isolated, but it's pissed off me massively.


Well, that may be local dynamics but overall things are going down.  I'm still rooting for "down" don't get me wrong, just was tired of waiting.  Best of luck.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 8, 2022)

ARF said:


> Never say never. You will be disappointed about your bad prediction.
> 4K will be a new mainstream soon enough.
> 
> Already 8K TVs are being shipped and prepared for sales worldwide.
> ...



4K is mainstream in TVs because the tech got cheap enough that they're now available for less than $500.  FHD only exists anymore in the very bottom end of the market, so if one wants something that doesn't suck, one is _forced_ to buy 4K.  Two things hold up the 4K transition in PC land:  Monitors and graphics.  FHD and QHD monitors are still common and plentiful, and will remain so until 4K models crowd them out in the under-$300 space.  4K gaming will follow when capable cards are common at a similar price point.  That's _probably_ a ways out yet. What's the threshold for solid 4K60, 6700 XT / 3060 ti? Those are still over $400. Maybe the next generation of cards will manage that kind of performance around $300, but my guess is the gen after that. We'll see if monitors reach that point at the same time; I think they'll lag a year or two. Since widespread adoption doesn't happen overnight, I'll predict based on nothing more than the preceding and ye olde gut that 4K will overtake FHD in PC gaming sometime in 2027 or 2028.


----------



## AsRock (Sep 8, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I do what I want, thanks.  Prices are falling as of now, not rising.



Yeah still waiting on the 6800XT to be at a reasonable price haha.  Still here have the money for it 2 years later lol.


----------



## 64K (Sep 9, 2022)

ARF said:


> Never say never. You will be disappointed about your bad prediction.
> 4K will be a new mainstream soon enough.
> 
> Already 8K TVs are being shipped and prepared for sales worldwide.
> ...



For TVs 4K has a large adoption and continues to grow.

For PC gaming.....no. Not happening. Estimates are that only around 2% of PC gamers are using 4K and it's been below 2% for years and years and it will stay extremely low for the foreseeable future. The reason is that it requires very expensive GPUs to run it properly. The average PC gamer is using entry level through midrange GPUs because that's what they can afford. Those GPUs are inadequate for 4K and that is why the number one resolution is 1080p and has been for many years and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

You can make the case that the nextgen midrange could somewhat handle 4K in present games but during that GPU's lifetime (maybe 4 years) it will become inadequate because games continue to require more and more from hardware. They always have and they always will.

1440p is another story. It's growing in adoption and most likely will continue to do so.


----------



## tussinman (Sep 9, 2022)

ARF said:


> Never say never. You will be disappointed about your bad prediction.


To be honest by the time those two things even happen (lower mid range doing ray tracing and 4k with zero issue) that $250-300 USD price bracket in question probably won't even exist anymore.........


----------



## ARF (Sep 9, 2022)

Chiphell leak:

















Alleged NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 Graphics Card 3DMark Time Spy Benchmark Leaks Out, Up To 3 GHz Clock Speed, 2x Faster Than RTX 3090 (wccftech.com)



64K said:


> For TVs 4K has a large adoption and continues to grow.
> 
> For PC gaming.....no. Not happening. Estimates are that only around 2% of PC gamers are using 4K and it's been below 2% for years and years and it will stay extremely low for the foreseeable future. The reason is that it requires very expensive GPUs to run it properly. The average PC gamer is using entry level through midrange GPUs because that's what they can afford. Those GPUs are inadequate for 4K and that is why the number one resolution is 1080p and has been for many years and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...



I am using a 4K monitor, and never going to lower resolution.


----------



## 64K (Sep 9, 2022)

ARF said:


> Chiphell leak:
> 
> View attachment 261134
> 
> ...


 Do you use it for gaming? If so welcome to the 2 percenter's club.


----------



## ARF (Sep 9, 2022)

64K said:


> Do you use it for gaming?



For sure, games like the F1 series, Counter-Strike Source, Counter-Strike: GO, etc, run with almost ANY graphics card at 4K, not maxed out, but some settings a bit down.
3840x2160 is the only right way these days...


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 9, 2022)

ARF said:


> For sure, games like the F1 series, Counter-Strike Source, Counter-Strike: GO, etc, run with almost ANY graphics card at 4K, not maxed out, but some settings a bit down.
> 3840x2160 is the only right way these days...



there is a right way to play games now?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> there is a right way to play games now?



Yeah, _my_ way, obviously.


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 9, 2022)

I find myself struggling greatly with the 2K or 4K question. I bought a Samsung G7 a couple weeks ago which is 1440p. Beautiful monitor. Since I am going to be using whatever monitor I get for many years I couldnt get the thought of 4k out of my head. Ultimately I put in for a return and have a Gigabyte M32UC on the way for the same price I paid for the G7.	Man I hope I dont regret it.


----------



## ARF (Sep 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> there is a right way to play games now?



You can always buy and use a 1280x1024 monitor


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> I find myself struggling greatly with the 2K or 4K question. I bought a Samsung G7 a couple weeks ago which is 1440p. Beautiful monitor. Since I am going to be using whatever monitor I get for many years I couldnt get the thought of 4k out of my head. Ultimately I put in for a return and have a Gigabyte M32UC on the way for the same price I paid for the G7.    Man I hope I dont regret it.


The good thing about 2160p is that its higher pixel density allows for running non-native resolutions with less visible blurriness and scaling artefacts - at least on ordinary monitor sizes (27" and the like). This effect diminishes with increased monitor size, but should be there still at 32". Plus, of course, with the advent of FSR, DLSS and the like, there are plenty of options for running non-native resolutions and having it look good both today and going forward. You just can't buy a 2160p monitor and be gung-ho about only running native res and ultra settings unless you either _love_ low framerates or have an unlimited GPU budget.


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 9, 2022)

Valantar said:


> The good thing about 2160p is that its higher pixel density allows for running non-native resolutions with less visible blurriness and scaling artefacts - at least on ordinary monitor sizes (27" and the like). This effect diminishes with increased monitor size, but should be there still at 32". Plus, of course, with the advent of FSR, DLSS and the like, there are plenty of options for running non-native resolutions and having it look good both today and going forward. You just can't buy a 2160p monitor and be gung-ho about only running native res and ultra settings unless you either _love_ low framerates or have an unlimited GPU budget.


Thanks for the info. I had been concerned with running stuff at 1440p on a 4k monitor. I dont have the GPU yet to run 4K, but I have settled on waiting and getting either a 4070 or 4080 if the prices arent outrageous. My GPU budget is around $700 US, so hopefully that will net me at least a 4070. Even if I have to switch back and forth from 2k to 4k for a few years eventually i'll have enough power for 4k reliably. Hopefully this particular monitor can look good running in 2K. I should have waited a few months before buying one though. I was building my daughter a new computer and caught the "I need new parts!" bug even though I had no intention of upgrading when I started, lol.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 9, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> you can't really say "they fixed it" and then present that insane disaster that was rdna1. Saying rdna1 was the exception is as valid as saying rdna2 was the exception. Anyway i don't care about teams, but AMD drivers are shit compared to Nvidia. I just update and forget about it on Nvidia. On AMD we have to downgrade all the time for whatever issue. And Adrenaline is a bug fest.



This is exactly why, barring a > $50 price difference in AMD vs Nvidia, I'd personally still go with Nvidia.

And nothing in the midrange is priced reasonably, at all.

Given this is a 2 year product cycle, this represents the last 4 years of the midrange, and it is not impressive at all.  With a 2 year product cycle, we should see 40% uplifts the way the high end GPUs are doing. 

But for Halo products, they just keep making higher and higher end models, while the mid range kind of languishes.  What do  we get next, the 4950XT Ti Super Titan?  

And yes I mixed up AMD/Nvidia naming convention intentionally.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 9, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> 4950XT Ti Super Titan?


RXTX 4995 XTX Ti Super.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Thanks for the info. I had been concerned with running stuff at 1440p on a 4k monitor. I dont have the GPU yet to run 4K, but I have settled on waiting and getting either a 4070 or 4080 if the prices arent outrageous. My GPU budget is around $700 US, so hopefully that will net me at least a 4070. Even if I have to switch back and forth from 2k to 4k for a few years eventually i'll have enough power for 4k reliably. Hopefully this particular monitor can look good running in 2K. I should have waited a few months before buying one though. I was building my daughter a new computer and caught the "I need new parts!" bug even though I had no intention of upgrading when I started, lol.


$700 for a GPU should get you into 2160p territory just fine. Just don't set your settings to Ultra - that's just stupid anyhow. The next setting down is typically visually indistinguishable yet performs far, far better. Reviews tend to test at Ultra because they want to test worst-case scenarios for proper stress testing, but gaming at Ultra makes no sense.

Also, this is a bit pedantic, but _please _stop calling 1440p "2K". A bit of a pet peeve, but this really drives me up the wall. The only resolution called 2K is DCI 2K, a cinema resolution that's 2048x1080 pixels (essentially a slightly wider 1080p). 1440p is 1440p, and there is no "XK" numbering for it, seeing how that numbering comes from the realm of TV sales and marketing, where 1440p has never existed.


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## ARF (Sep 9, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> This is exactly why, barring a > $50 price difference in AMD vs Nvidia, I'd personally still go with Nvidia.
> 
> And nothing in the midrange is priced reasonably, at all.
> 
> ...



The reason for this difference between Turing and Ampere is that all Turing dies were very large:

RTX 2080 Ti - TU102 - 754 sq. mm.
RTX 2080 - TU104 - 545 sq. mm.
RTX 2060 - TU106 - 445 sq. mm.

While with the RTX 3060, nvidia tried to return to the more normal die sizes:

RTX 3060 - GA106 - 276 sq. mm.

GA106 is a virtual die shrink of the TU106.
When there are direct shrinks, there is no high-performance improvement.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 9, 2022)

FHD vs QHD vs 4K (or UHD) makes the most sense. 


Valantar said:


> $700 for a GPU should get you into 2160p territory just fine. Just don't set your settings to Ultra - that's just stupid anyhow. The next setting down is typically visually indistinguishable yet performs far, far better. Reviews tend to test at Ultra because they want to test worst-case scenarios for proper stress testing, but gaming at Ultra makes no sense.


Yes! 

Also, you would be better off getting a better monitor at a lower resolution if buying a midrange GPU. 




ARF said:


> GA106 is a virtual die shrink of the TU106.
> When there are direct shrinks, there is no high-performance improvement


Small performance bump from clock speeds, usually. However, GA106 has 3840 shading units, vs the 2304 of TU106. The 3060 has around 50% more than the 2060. 

What I can't understand is why the GPU manufacturers are not more focused on improvements to the highest volume markets - the 60-70 class units. Mindshare/press coverage maybe?


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## ARF (Sep 9, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Small performance bump from clock speeds, usually. However, GA106 has 3840 shading units, vs the 2304 of TU106. The 3060 has around 50% more than the 2060.
> 
> What I can't understand is why the GPU manufacturers are not more focused on improvements to the highest volume markets - the 60-70 class units. Mindshare/press coverage maybe?



If I'm not mistaken two Ampere shaders are equal to one Turing shader. They were made to be smaller and less performance.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 9, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> FHD vs QHD vs 4K (or UHD) makes the most sense.
> 
> Yes!
> 
> ...



My hypothesis, generated on the fly during a conversation with a friend yesterday, is the confluence of high die yields with strong demand for high performance cards.  Back in The Day(tm), the number of customers willing to pay top dollar for the top cards was limited.  Chipmakers would resort (allegedly?) to fusing off fully-functioning dice to have chips for cards lower in the stack.  Then the PC gaming resurgence came around, coupled with the crypto boom.  All of a sudden there was functionally unlimited demand for the highest performing chip either manufacturer could muster, even beyond the traditional one-upsmanship.  From AMD/Nvidia's perspective, that doesn't leave much incentive to drive value in the midrange.  AMD was the champion there in recent years because they didn't have anything that could compete with Nvidia in the high end, so needed to lean on the value play.  Then the above happened, coupled with legit advancements of their own, and that wasn't necessary anymore.


----------



## ARF (Sep 9, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> My hypothesis, generated on the fly during a conversation with a friend yesterday, is the confluence of high die yields with strong demand for high performance cards.  Back in The Day(tm), the number of customers willing to pay top dollar for the top cards was limited.  Chipmakers would resort (allegedly?) to fusing off fully-functioning dice to have chips for cards lower in the stack.  Then the PC gaming resurgence came around, coupled with the crypto boom.  All of a sudden there was functionally unlimited demand for the highest performing chip either manufacturer could muster, even beyond the traditional one-upsmanship.  From AMD/Nvidia's perspective, that doesn't leave much incentive to drive value in the midrange.  AMD was the champion there in recent years because they didn't have anything that could compete with Nvidia in the high end, so needed to lean on the value play.  Then the above happened, coupled with legit advancements of their own, and that wasn't necessary anymore.



I disagree. We have a duopoly and AMD didn't master anything at all. We see the same old performance from AMD and no improvement at all.
I mean look at the 5500 XT (2019) -> 6500 XT (2022) transition. 0% progress. None!
It even looks that AMD intentionally stagnates the market, so that no "average joe" to ever be able to upgrade from the ancient 1080p monitor.
The AMD market share is still low 20% and there is absolutely no signs that to be improving.

Please, show the cards sales - how many low-end cards were sold, how many mid-range and how many high-end?


----------



## AnotherReader (Sep 9, 2022)

ARF said:


> If I'm not mistaken two Ampere shaders are equal to one Turing shader. They were made to be smaller and less performance.


That isn't the case. Turing introduced separate int32 execution units. Pascal executed int32 operations on the fp32 units. Ampere added 1 fp32 unit for each int32 unit. So the resources  per SMX look like this:


*Pascal**Turing**Ampere**Units*64 fp3264 fp32 + 64 int32128 fp32 + 64 int32*Max ops per clock*64 fp32
or
64 int3264 fp32
or
32 fp32 and 32 int32128 fp32
or
64 fp32 and 64 int32

Keep in mind that each SMX in Pascal and Turing is limited to 64 operations per clock. However, each SMX in Ampere can execute 128 operations per clock. In practice, the difference isn't that great. Let's use the example of a game that has a mix of 2 fp32 ops to 1 int32 op. I'm using this example, because this is what Nvidia used to illustrate Turing's improvements over Pascal.

Over the course of 6 instructions, the 3 architectures will execute them like this:


*Cycle**Pascal**Turing**Ampere*11 int321 fp32 + 1 int321 fp32 + 1 int3221 fp321 fp32 + 1 int321 fp32 + 1 int3231 fp321 fp322 fp3241 int321 fp3251 fp3261 fp32

Thus, Ampere, despite having twice the fp32 throughput of Turing, will be limited to a 4/3 or 33% increase in performance per SMX. On top of that, shader throughput isn't the only factor affecting frame times. Still, due to Nvidia increasing fixed function resources as well (96 ROP vs 64 for instance), this corresponds pretty closely to the relative performance of the RTX 2080 and 3070 which have the same SMX count.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 9, 2022)

ARF said:


> I disagree. We have a duopoly and AMD didn't master anything at all. We see the same old performance from AMD and no improvement at all.
> I mean look at the 5500 XT (2019) -> 6500 XT (2022) transition. 0% progress. None!



The 6500 XT is a joke for sure.  That's well-established.  By contrast, the 6600 is faster than the 5700 (at ~50W less power) and only a bit behind the 5700 XT, while the 66[0,5]0 XT is faster. The 5700 XT was the top AMD card of its generation, and they've got 5 more cards above it now.



ARF said:


> It even looks that AMD intentionally stagnates the market, so that no "average joe" to ever be able to upgrade from the ancient 1080p monitor.



That's an... interesting claim.  What reason would they have to do this?  If anything, I'd think it'd be the opposite; driving higher resolutions so consumers feel the need to buy the more capable, more profitable cards.  After all, they have products in that segment now.



ARF said:


> The AMD market share is still low 20% and there is absolutely no signs that to be improving.



Yeah, they've struggled with this for over a decade.  Nvidia's in a very entrenched position of strength.



ARF said:


> Please, show the cards sales - how many low-end cards were sold, how many mid-range and how many high-end?



That is data I don't have, but is it relevant to this discussion?

Rewinding a bit, I didn't claim that AMD mastered anything, but that they were "champions" of value-for-money vs. Nvidia's midrange in recent history.  R9 380 vs. GTX 960, RX 480/580 against GTX 1060.  In both those cases, one generally got more perf for less $ (but more watts) with the AMD solution.  I wasn't paying attention to the 5000 series, but right now we have the RX 6600 (yes, I'm bringing it up _yet again_) conclusively beating the RTX 3050 for significantly less money.  The caveat there is that those aren't supposed to be competing against each other, but they are because the 3050 is way, _*way*_ overpriced.

So, I understand your frustration with the lack of progress in the low-to-midrange.  I am, too (more with pricing than anything), but I also don't think it's as bad (6400/6500 XT excepted) as you're making it out to be.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 9, 2022)

Valantar said:


> $700 for a GPU should get you into 2160p territory just fine. Just don't set your settings to Ultra - that's just stupid anyhow. The next setting down is typically visually indistinguishable yet performs far, far better. Reviews tend to test at Ultra because they want to test worst-case scenarios for proper stress testing, but gaming at Ultra makes no sense.
> 
> Also, this is a bit pedantic, but _please _stop calling 1440p "2K". A bit of a pet peeve, but this really drives me up the wall. The only resolution called 2K is DCI 2K, a cinema resolution that's 2048x1080 pixels (essentially a slightly wider 1080p). 1440p is 1440p, and there is no "XK" numbering for it, seeing how that numbering comes from the realm of TV sales and marketing, where 1440p has never existed.


1440p is 2.5K.


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Sep 9, 2022)

Lei said:


> Now that we're getting closer to the game changing announcement on September 20th
> 
> 
> View attachment 260703


¡con las cucarachas ajajaja!


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 10, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> My hypothesis, generated on the fly during a conversation with a friend yesterday, is the confluence of high die yields with strong demand for high performance cards.  Back in The Day(tm), the number of customers willing to pay top dollar for the top cards was limited.  Chipmakers would resort (allegedly?) to fusing off fully-functioning dice to have chips for cards lower in the stack.  Then the PC gaming resurgence came around, coupled with the crypto boom.  All of a sudden there was functionally unlimited demand for the highest performing chip either manufacturer could muster, even beyond the traditional one-upsmanship.  From AMD/Nvidia's perspective, that doesn't leave much incentive to drive value in the midrange.  AMD was the champion there in recent years because they didn't have anything that could compete with Nvidia in the high end, so needed to lean on the value play.  Then the above happened, coupled with legit advancements of their own, and that wasn't necessary anymore.


Yes, but remember, not all cards use the same die. So, if both cost and profit are based on die size, at least one mid-range card could be focused on (full navi 23 or GA106, or even smaller).


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 10, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Yes, but remember, not all cards use the same die. So, if both cost and profit are based on die size, at least one mid-range card could be focused on (full navi 23 or GA106, or even smaller).



This is true.  I was remembering cases like the GTX 970 and 980.  Both were GM204, but the 980 cost over two hundred more bones.  Did Nvidia actually gimp fully-functional GM204 dice that could have been used for 980s because there wasn't enough demand for those, but plenty for the 970?  I don't know.  It wouldn't surprise me.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 10, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> This is true.  I was remembering cases like the GTX 970 and 980.  Both were GM204, but the 980 cost over two hundred more bones.  Did Nvidia actually gimp fully-functional GM204 dice that could have been used for 980s because there wasn't enough demand for those, but plenty for the 970?  I don't know.  It wouldn't surprise me.


These thoughts make me want to make tables and charts.


----------



## budget_Optiplex (Sep 10, 2022)

As a note of interest, I've been watching this Sapphire Pulse RX6600 price as a friend needs an upgrade from an RX470 that isn't quite cutting it in newer games on his 5760x1080 Eyefinity setup. This card went to 259.99 with free shipping in early August, then was raised to an insane 279.99 + 9.99 shipping in early September, then dropped back to 259.99 with free shipping a few days ago. Looking at sold history, these are barely moving even at 259.99, with last one sold on August 24th, and finally another one sold on September 9th. This is from newegg in the USA.









						Sapphire Pulse RX 6600 Gaming 8GB GDDR6 Graphics Card 840777087671 | eBay
					

SAPPHIRE PULSE Radeon RX 6600 Lite. SAPPHIRE PULSE AMD Radeon RX 6600. The AMD Radeon RX 6600 is engineered to dominate 1080p gaming. Radeon RX 6600. AMD Radeon RX 6000 Series. AMD RDNA 2 Powers Gaming.



					www.ebay.com
				




If watching this particular card is any indication: 1. The midrange cards are still too expensive, especially in these deteriorating economic conditions. 2. People really are voting with their wallets and not buying at these prices. 

I keep reading articles around the internet about GPU prices being lowered because AMD and Nvidia want to move product, but I sure can't say I'm seeing any of this watching prices on midrange cards like the RX6600 and even worse the RTX 3050 which is selling for $300+ still for a card that's slower then the RX6600. I wonder when these midrange cards will get real discounts that will move them off the shelves????


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## Appalachian (Sep 10, 2022)

budget_Optiplex said:


> As a note of interest, I've been watching this Sapphire Pulse RX6600 price as a friend needs an upgrade from an RX470 that isn't quite cutting it in newer games on his 5760x1080 Eyefinity setup. This card went to 259.99 with free shipping in early August, then was raised to an insane 279.99 + 9.99 shipping in early September, then dropped back to 259.99 with free shipping a few days ago. Looking at sold history, these are barely moving even at 259.99, with last one sold on August 24th, and finally another one sold on September 9th. This is from newegg in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had read speculation that the higher tier cards are the ones getting the better discounts because those are the ones coming out first. Ive been watching 3070's, 80's, 90's and 6900 XT. There have been some pretty modest deals the last few weeks on all of them. Ive also been watching the 3060 ti and it hasn't budged so it seems this may be the case. Of course, the higher tier cards price was already so bloated, they have a lot more room to give in pricng.


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## RJARRRPCGP (Sep 10, 2022)

budget_Optiplex said:


> People really are voting with their wallets


Like I voted with my wallet against the RX 6500 XT! I skipped right to RX 6600 XT early this year.


----------



## ARF (Sep 10, 2022)

RTX 4060 (AD106, PCIe 4.0?? x8) will be ~70% faster than RTX 3060.
RTX 4070 will be ~50% faster than RTX 3070.





NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Rumored To Be Slower Than RTX 3070 Ti, AD106 & AD107 GPUs Utilize PCIe x8 Interface (wccftech.com)


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> This is true.  I was remembering cases like the GTX 970 and 980.  Both were GM204, but the 980 cost over two hundred more bones.  Did Nvidia actually gimp fully-functional GM204 dice that could have been used for 980s because there wasn't enough demand for those, but plenty for the 970?  I don't know.  It wouldn't surprise me.


The 980 Ti sold better than the 980 i.e. the consumer isn't fooled that easily and the 5700 XT 50th Anniversary Edition sold miserably as well with a 0.04% market share at it's peak.


----------



## ARF (Sep 10, 2022)

RX 5700 XT was the worst. Designed during a difficult period for AMD in which the company faced the real threat of going under, to bankrupt, its share stock price was $1, and AMD had no money to design a big Navi 1 chip to fill the empty high-end niche.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

ARF said:


> RX 5700 XT was the worst. Designed during a difficult period for AMD in which the company faced the real threat of going under, to bankrupt, its share stock price was $1, and AMD had no money to design a big Navi 1 chip to fill the empty high-end niche.


Wasn't the Zen 1 CPU's making them money?


----------



## ARF (Sep 10, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> Wasn't the Zen 1 CPU's making them money?



Yes but later, RX 5700 XT was launched in late 2019, while the design stages last 4 years at least, so its design began in 2015, two years before the Zen.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

ARF said:


> Yes but later, RX 5700 XT was launched in late 2019, while the design stages last 4 years at least, so its design began in 2015, two years before the Zen.


Ah, I see.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 10, 2022)

budget_Optiplex said:


> People really are voting with their wallets and not buying at these prices.


That is such a wildly myopic analysis. People aren't "voting with their wallets" - six months ago, hordes of people were throwing whatever money they had at any available GPU. Calling the current reversal "voting with their wallets" is in such blatant direct conflict with recent history that it just makes no sense. People are either already using a relatively new GPU, or they have been objecting to GPU pricing for years and abstaining from upgrading. (Or, like the vast majority most likely, they just don't care that much about computers, and just want to play games.) But that just goes to show how utterly useless the concept of "voting with your wallet is" - 'cause if that's the case, then this same group has likely been doing the same for the entire GPU shortage. And not a single person has noticed or cared, because every single GPU made, no matter the price, would sell. The only exception to this is people who previously had the means to buy a new GPU, couldn't due to the shortage, and have in the meantime lost the economic security enabling them to do so. Even with current economic insecurity, that is not a large group.

What we are seeing is a combination of oversupply, a saturated market, a well stocked used market, and economic insecurity. Reducing that to "people are voting with their wallets" is incredibly reductive.


ARF said:


> I disagree. We have a duopoly and AMD didn't master anything at all. We see the same old performance from AMD and no improvement at all.
> I mean look at the 5500 XT (2019) -> 6500 XT (2022) transition. 0% progress. None!
> It even looks that AMD intentionally stagnates the market, so that no "average joe" to ever be able to upgrade from the ancient 1080p monitor.
> The AMD market share is still low 20% and there is absolutely no signs that to be improving.


You always have some rather interesting responses and analyses, and this is definitely one of them. First off, did anyone say AMD had "mastered" anything? Second, the RX 6500 is well established to be a _very_ weirdly specced and wholly underwhelming GPU that makes zero sense. It definitely shows that someone at AMD has some rather bad ideas - but crucially, it is not whatsoever representative of the RDNA2 generation at all - not whatsoever. It is a clear and remarkable outlier. It does indeed show no scaling from the RX 5500 XT - but on the other hand, the RX 6600 (non-XT) outperforms the RX 5700 at 1080p; the 6600 XT outperforms the 5700 XT at 1080p and the 5700 at 1440p; and the RX 6700 XT delivers a very significant 25-32% (dependent on resolution) jump over the 5700 XT.

Also, you're very selectively only focusing on naming tiers rather than pricing - which is after all what matters more to most buyers. It doesn't matter if the GPU you can afford is in a 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 tier - if it's what you can afford, that's the fastest GPU you're getting. Of course, in a way, you're right - there has been massive stagnation this generation. However, singling out AMD for this _makes no sense_. Nvidia has been identical to AMD in this regard, delivering like-for-like price and performance increases over previous generations. Blaming the current value stagnation in GPUs on AMD in that context is just nonsensical - both AMD and Nvidia are perfectly equal in this regard for this generation. And, IMO, Nvidia as a market leader has a lot more clout and a lot more of an impact with their decisions, and thus had far more of a say of where price/performance has shaken out in the end. Yes, AMD could absolutely have undercut them as they have preivously, and that is absolutely something one could argue that AMD _should_ have done. However, that doesn't absolve Nvidia from its responsibility in consistently driving GPU prices upwards and relative value (perf/$ gen-over-gen) downwards each generation.

AMD's market share and its failure to grow is an extremely complex topic, and one that is strongly affected by Nvidia's massive mindshare advantage and their status as a decades-long incumbent market leader. Trying to gain market share against that kind of opposition is _incredibly _difficult, no matter your product quality, marketing, etc. It took AMD more than three years of consistently delivering better-value and in the end fundamentally superior products to Intel to erase Intel's mindshare advantage in CPUs, and that was _far_ less entrenched than Nvidia's mindshare in GPUs.

The GPU market is a duopoly in that there are only two significant actors, but that is also a gross misrepresentation of reality, as the term implies that they are comparable in market strength. In reality, the GPU market is a quasi-monopoly with a moderately strong runner-up that somewhat threatens the status of the incumbent, but is by no means in a position to beat them - not in finances, not in multi-year R&D funding, not in mindshare.


----------



## ARF (Sep 10, 2022)

I think there are two problems:

1. Inflation which in the graphics cards segment is anywhere between 50% and infinity.
2. Macro-economic pressures (political?) to make the lives of the rich easier, and the lives of the poor people much more difficult.

Why I am saying this.

Because the RX 6500 XT is probably not a replacement of the old Radeon RX 5500 XT, but rather a tier below it.
The true RX 5500 XT replacement is the cut down Radeon RX 6600.
Prices - MSRP at launch in the first case - $169, in the second case - $329, or 95% inflation.

Also, let's look at idealo.de and how the prices have changed in the last 10-day period between 30 August and 9 September:

Radeon RX 6400 - 171.69 euro - 172.00 euro *+0.1%*
Radeon RX 6500 XT - 187.90 euro - 187.90 euro *+0*
Radeon RX 6600 - 278.00 euro - 278.00 euro *+0*
Radeon RX 6600 XT - 388.96 euro - 399.00 euro *+2.6%*
Radeon RX 6650 XT - 403.00 euro - 401.27 euro *-0.4%*
Radeon RX 6700 XT - 431.10 euro - 479.90 euro *+11.3%*
Radeon RX 6750 XT - 540.48 euro - 547.90 euro *+1.4%*
Radeon RX 6800 - 629.00 euro - 629.00 euro *+0%*
Radeon RX 6800 XT - 769.00 euro - 789.90 euro *+2.7%*
Radeon RX 6900 XT - 924.92 euro - 914.92 euro *-1%*
Radeon RX 6950 XT - 1173.98 euro - 999.00 euro *-17.5%*

For a comparison:

Prices of the low-end cards as of 16 August 2022:

Radeon RX 6400 - 168.82 euro *-2%*
Radeon RX 6500 XT - 169.00 euro *-11%*


----------



## Valantar (Sep 10, 2022)

ARF said:


> I think there are two problems:
> 
> 1. Inflation which in the graphics cards segment is anywhere between 50% and infinity.
> 2. Macro-economic pressures (political?) to make the lives of the rich easier, and the lives of the poor people much more difficult.
> ...


I think your second point has some merit, though calling the first point "inflation" is adopting a _very_ problematic term (which mainly serves to hand-wave away the actual willful politics behind the economic processes causing price hikes and value drops) and making it mean something it doesn't.

Also, your generational succesion story doesn't add up to me. Given that the RX 6600 is significantly more powerful than the RX 5600 XT, it makes no sense for it to be a successor to the 5500 XT. The RX 6500 XT _is_ undoubtedly the successor to the 5500 XT - it's just clear that whoever designed that card at AMD _didn't care about dGPUs_. It is very obviously an "oh, crap, I guess we have to make a desktop dGPU as well" version of a strictly designed-for-mobile, low-power, low-cost GPU. I do agree that the RX 6500 _should have  _been called the 6400 - at which point it would have been decent for its tier! - and there should have been a ~20-24CU RX 6500 XT, not the 16CU one we got. The 6600 isn't the GPU you're missing - the one you're missing doesn't exist, as it was never made. This is a major flaw in AMD's RDNA2 die designs, as it leaves a massive performance gap between cut-down Navi 23 and full-sized Navi 24 - the 6600 is essentially twice as fast as a 6500 XT, after all.

What AMD did was clearly bet on Navi 24 being a volume seller for low-end gaming notebooks, and they optimized the design to the extreme for that use case alone. This doesn't seem to have actually led to it getting a lot of mobile design wins, so this seems like a major strategic blunder from AMD's side, as it _also_ made their dGPU versions of the die - clearly an afterthought - look even more silly. What they should have done IMO, is make Navi 24 either 20 or 24 CUs with a 96-bit VRAM bus (and possibly a slightly larger Infinity Cache). This would have made the die slightly more expensive, and thus a harder sell for those $6-700 entry gaming laptops, but all the more flexible and attractive as an entry gaming GPU in its own right, regardless of the target market. And, of course, it would have led to a far less stupid-looking RX 6500 XT, as it wouldn't have been the least efficient GPU of its whole generation as they wouldn't have had to OC the snot out of it to make it not look terrible, etc. I just hope AMD treats the low end and lower mid-range with some more respect for the 7000 series. Hopefully the current demand slump is enough to remind them of just how many units the RX 570/580 and GTX 1060 sold, and how lucrative the ~$150-250 market is as long as you go for volume rather than massive margins.


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## 64K (Sep 10, 2022)

Valantar said:


> What we are seeing is a combination of oversupply, a saturated market, a well stocked used market, and economic insecurity.



That sums it up very nicely.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 10, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> The 980 Ti sold better than the 980 i.e. the consumer isn't fooled that easily



Perhaps.  Dropping $200 for the ~15% a 980 got you over a 970 was a pretty big ask.  The $100 jump for the next 15% the 980 ti got you looks like a bargain in comparison.  It's odd in retrospect; why wouldn't the RRP deltas have been flipped like in CPUs?  $330-450-650 in this case?  Usually, it costs you proportionally _more_ money for that last chunk of performance. Back on topic...



Mikael Andersson said:


> and the 5700 XT 50th Anniversary Edition sold miserably as well with a 0.04% market share at it's peak.



My Google-fu is too weak to find any legit historical sales numbers, so all I've got to go by is the latest SHWS.  Yes, I know it's not the same thing as market share, but one makes do.  The 980 and 980 ti are within .03% over the past 5 months.  Maybe that's not a good indicator of how many one sold relative to each other, but I'd think it'd be in the ballpark.  The 5700 XT is  essentially tied with the 2080 S and ahead of the 2080 and 2080 ti.  Interestingly enough, the 5700 XT has a higher share than all AMD discrete GPUs except the RX 570 and 580.

Interesting side note:  Vega 56/64 don't even ping anymore.


----------



## PoolSchools (Sep 10, 2022)

I don't get all this talk about the "saturated used market" and "low prices", as a dude that only wants to replay Cyberpunk @720p Lowest settings (1080P FSR Quality), because my R9 380 4 GB has died (and it costed 190€ 7 years ago...), where I live (and we have a lot of tech stores) the only 2 cards in stock below 500€ are:

250€ for a GTX 1650 4 GB (with preorder, then you must wait 7-14 days to pick it up at the store)
200€ for a RX 6500 XT 4 GB (very limited stock, sometimes you have to wait 7-14 days too)

In the used market, if you are really lucky an RX 570 8 GB for 200€, GTX 1060 6 GB for 230€ or a GTX 970/1050 Ti for 160€ sometimes show up but they get snatched pretty quickly, usually less than 10 minutes. Even the 2 GB HD 7870's and GTX 1050 are selling for 70€ and 100€ each, and they sell in less than an hour.

I've been waiting 3 weeks for things to get better and "new" used stock to show up at decent prices, but nothing ever does, it just gets worse and prices even went up 10-20€ for each card, I'm gonna have to choose between a GTX 780 Ti for 110€ with warranty or an RX 470 mining edition with no outputs and no warranty for 100€ (Using the VGA output of Intel integrated graphics which causes a performance hit of around 10% and the risk of some games not switching or detecting the secondary card )


----------



## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 10, 2022)

PoolSchools said:


> I don't get all this talk about the "saturated used market" and "low prices", as a dude that only wants to replay Cyberpunk @720p Lowest settings (1080P FSR Quality), because my R9 380 4 GB has died (and it costed 190€ 7 years ago...), where I live (and we have a lot of tech stores) the only 2 cards in stock below 500€ are:
> 
> 250€ for a GTX 1650 4 GB (with preorder, then you must wait 7-14 days to pick it up at the store)
> 200€ for a RX 6500 XT 4 GB (very limited stock, sometimes you have to wait 7-14 days too)
> ...


Ouch! What country are you in?


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Perhaps.  Dropping $200 for the ~15% a 980 got you over a 970 was a pretty big ask.  The $100 jump for the next 15% the 980 ti got you looks like a bargain in comparison.  It's odd in retrospect; why wouldn't the RRP deltas have been flipped like in CPUs?  $330-450-650 in this case?  Usually, it costs you proportionally _more_ money for that last chunk of performance. Back on topic...


nVidia should have priced the 980 at the 970 Ti price point and the 970 Ti in it's turn should have been priced at the 960 Ti price point.
If AMD gives us performance at a good price with RDNA3 then nVidia is in for a big shock which is a good thing for the consumer.


----------



## ARF (Sep 10, 2022)

budget_Optiplex said:


> As a note of interest, I've been watching this Sapphire Pulse RX6600 price as a friend needs an upgrade from an RX470 that isn't quite cutting it in newer games on his 5760x1080 Eyefinity setup. This card went to 259.99 with free shipping in early August, then was raised to an insane 279.99 + 9.99 shipping in early September, then dropped back to 259.99 with free shipping a few days ago. Looking at sold history, these are barely moving even at 259.99, with last one sold on August 24th, and finally another one sold on September 9th. This is from newegg in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At least it is good to see that the buyers are not excited at all to get a new card now 

But this spells trouble because the market shrinks, the graphics divisions will begin posting negative numbers, and ultimately bankrupts will follow


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

PoolSchools said:


> I don't get all this talk about the "saturated used market" and "low prices", as a dude that only wants to replay Cyberpunk @720p Lowest settings (1080P FSR Quality), because my R9 380 4 GB has died (and it costed 190€ 7 years ago...), where I live (and we have a lot of tech stores) the only 2 cards in stock below 500€ are:
> 
> 250€ for a GTX 1650 4 GB (with preorder, then you must wait 7-14 days to pick it up at the store)
> 200€ for a RX 6500 XT 4 GB (very limited stock, sometimes you have to wait 7-14 days too)
> ...


A used RX 570 8GB is probably your best bet... look on german ebay or whatever ebay that suits your fancy and hopefully you can find one below €200.
*On a separate note:* isn't it crazy that the 6900 XT is the same price or even slightly cheaper than the 6800 XT?


----------



## MarsM4N (Sep 10, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> *On a separate note:* isn't it crazy that the 6900 XT is the same price or even slightly cheaper than the 6800 XT?



_(over) *supply* & (under) *demand*_. 

Wanted to say it's mostly because the 6900XT uses more power, but after research to my surprise they both use around the same power.
300W is still too much for my taste, that's why the most efficient card (RX 6800 non X with around 230W) would still be my first pick.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> _(over) *supply* & (under) *demand*_.
> 
> Wanted to say it's mostly because the 6900XT uses more power, but after research to my surprise they both use around the same power.
> 300W is still too much for my taste, that's why the most efficient card (RX 6800 non X with around 230W) would still be my first pick.


But that one has only 60 CU's.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 10, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> _(over) *supply* & (under) *demand*_.
> 
> Wanted to say it's mostly because the 6900XT uses more power, but after research to my surprise they both use around the same power.
> 300W is still too much for my taste, that's why the most efficient card (RX 6800 non X with around 230W) would still be my first pick.


My 6900 XT sits around/slightly below ~200W @ 2250MHz, so there's plenty of efficiency to be had there  Still outperforms even the highest ranked RX 6800 with the same CPU in Time Spy too - though not by a ton, obviously. This is with a very quick and dirty underclock and minimal undervolting - its XTXH silicon isn't a fan of low voltages. A slightly more efficient bin and the 6800 can be really left in the dust.


----------



## Kissamies (Sep 10, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> A used RX 570 8GB is probably your best bet... look on german ebay or whatever ebay that suits your fancy and hopefully you can find one below €200.


Is it just me, but I thought that RX 570 was expensive even when it released at around 200EUR. Though I prefer used gen or two old high-end ones which usually have significantly better price/performance ratio.


----------



## Lei (Sep 10, 2022)

Based on this video which features Jensen's whispering voice. Nvidia is not giving in all the 30-series it has. Because it doesn't want to bring prices any lower. This means almost certainly next gen msrp is going to be beefed up.

They're not rushing to sell all their inventory. Instead they're going to .... Let's call 3060 a Lovelace 4010. RTX3060 is a future upcoming card as part of #projectbeyond 
You have never seen 3080 before. It's coming and you are going to buy it and you can't skip it, because 4080 is not 699$


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 10, 2022)

Mikael Andersson said:


> A used RX 570 8GB is probably your best bet... look on german ebay or whatever ebay that suits your fancy and hopefully you can find one below €200.
> *On a separate note:* isn't it crazy that the 6900 XT is the same price or even slightly cheaper than the 6800 XT?


I noticed this too. Right now the 6900 xt is $300 US below msrp. Granted that msrp is super bloated.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 10, 2022)

PoolSchools said:


> I don't get all this talk about the "saturated used market" and "low prices", as a dude that only wants to replay Cyberpunk @720p Lowest settings (1080P FSR Quality), because my R9 380 4 GB has died (and it costed 190€ 7 years ago...), where I live (and we have a lot of tech stores) the only 2 cards in stock below 500€ are:
> 
> 250€ for a GTX 1650 4 GB (with preorder, then you must wait 7-14 days to pick it up at the store)
> 200€ for a RX 6500 XT 4 GB (very limited stock, sometimes you have to wait 7-14 days too)
> ...


Wow that is pretty terrible. Where are you located? I'm used to the used market in Norway being utter trash, and after moving to Sweden that was a bit better, and new GPU prices in both places have been slow to come down - but it sounds a lot worse where you are. Are there no miners offloading GPUs where you are? Despite our trash used market, I talked a miner into parting with an RX 6600 (in excellent condition) for 1900 NOK just recently (list price was a bit higher), pretty much €190 exactly.


----------



## Kissamies (Sep 10, 2022)

Sorry that these are in Finnish, but yeah, the cheapest 6900 XT cards are good in price/performance.


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 10, 2022)

ARF said:


> Soon...
> 
> Double the performance
> 
> ...



really or just rumours?

If even remotely true.. i'm glad i didnt pull the trigger on 30 series


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 10, 2022)

Valantar said:


> My 6900 XT sits around/slightly below ~200W @ 2250MHz, so there's plenty of efficiency to be had there  Still outperforms even the highest ranked RX 6800 with the same CPU in Time Spy too - though not by a ton, obviously. This is with a very quick and dirty underclock and minimal undervolting - its XTXH silicon isn't a fan of low voltages. A slightly more efficient bin and the 6800 can be really left in the dust.


I would be happy the hear what you think of it in this thread: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/6900-xt-inquiry.298677/


----------



## ARF (Sep 11, 2022)

Lei said:


> Based on this video which features Jensen's whispering voice. Nvidia is not giving in all the 30-series it has. Because it doesn't want to bring prices any lower. This means almost certainly next gen msrp is going to be beefed up.
> 
> They're not rushing to sell all their inventory. Instead they're going to .... *Let's call 3060 a Lovelace 4010.* RTX3060 is a future upcoming card as part of #projectbeyond
> You have never seen 3080 before. It's coming and you are going to buy it and you can't skip it, because 4080 is not 699$



^^ That would be too good to be true, usually they don't do such good things, instead they rebadge a "3060" as a "4050 Ti" in the best case, or simply  a "4060" for convenience  I mean for the happiness of the share holder


----------



## Mister300 (Sep 11, 2022)

outpt said:


> Sumbitch I couldn’t wait any longer for prices to return to normal. My backup gpu took a dirt nap and went to gpu heaven(trash can). So I bought a evga 3080ftw3 ultra that was 832.65 cents. Geez this is ridiculous.


832.65/365 is 4.56 USD a day to own this card. A daily meal at a FF establishment is more.


----------



## Lei (Sep 11, 2022)

ARF said:


> ^^ That would be too good to be true, usually they don't do such good things, instead they rebadge a "3060" as a "4050 Ti" in the best case, or simply  a "4060" for convenience  I mean for the happiness of the share holder


Basically Jensen is saying: we're not dying to sell all our stock.

TSMC refusing to cancel the deal and ETH going PoS doesn't mean a gpu flood is coming. I told you before: having products manufactured doesn't mean they're going to neatly put them on shelves for you.


----------



## ARF (Sep 11, 2022)

Lei said:


> Basically Jensen is saying: we're not dying to sell all our stock.
> 
> TSMC refusing to cancel the deal and ETH going PoS doesn't mean a gpu flood is coming. I told you before: having products manufactured doesn't mean they're going to neatly put them on shelves for you.



I agree. They can set them on fire


----------



## Palladium (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> That sums it up very nicely.



and games that needs new GPUs to run tend to also suck in the fun department


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 11, 2022)

Palladium said:


> and games that needs new GPUs to run tend to also suck in the fun department


I still have a PS5 in the box sitting in the basement (even bought side panels that have grills for the air circulation).

What I play on PC? Dragons Dogma and some Red Dead 2. Or the odd emulated game.

I got an array of cards but noticed I'm OK with either a 6600 or RTX 3060 on 1440p.  Most games worth their salt will have FSR or DLSS anyway.


----------



## ppn (Sep 11, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> really or just rumours?
> 
> If even remotely true.. i'm glad i didnt pull the trigger on 30 series



The very fact that density going from 8nm to 4nm is more than double.
the 611 mm² die can now fit 60,000 million transistors.
628 mm² on 8nm can fit 28,300 million transistors,
the 4nm shrink to 300 mm² is cutting the bus to half 192 bit. Now with only 7680 Cuda, but they could have separate integer units.

Only 4090 is about double, because of 50% more cuda + 50 more clock and the memory bus remains the same.
perhaps 4050 too if 3840/128bit is double the RTX 3050.
4060,4070,4080 not so much, since the memory bus gets cut severely, and cuda count sees only 10-20% iprovement.

And yes no one in their sober money saving state should buy 30 -series at MSRP later that 3 months since the initial launch back in 2020, because with every new day it's getting closer to next gen, and losing in value like 10% every 100 days or so.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 11, 2022)

ppn said:


> The very fact that density going from 8nm to 4nm is more than double.
> the 611 mm² die can now fit 60,000 million transistors.
> 628 mm² on 8nm can fit 28,300 million transistors,
> the 4nm shrink to 300 mm² is cutting the bus to half 192 bit. Now with only 7680 Cuda, but they could have separate integer units.


What are those density calculations based on?


----------



## error1984 (Sep 11, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Ouch! What country are you in?


He is talking bs...big one! Pathetic liar who look for attention. gtx 780 with warranty  lol


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 11, 2022)

3080/10Gb prices on Amazon have hit below $750, 12 GB about $75-100 more. I'm gonna predict(speculate in case you didnt know) the 40 series cards will have the prices lowered at, or by, launch day.

_BUT_, only if 30 series cards are still 'overstocked'.



Valantar said:


> What are those density calculations based on?


math?


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 11, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> 3080/10Gb prices on Amazon have hit below $750, 12 GB about $75-100 more. I'm gonna predict(speculate in case you didnt know) the 40 series cards will have the prices lowered at, or by, launch day.
> 
> _BUT_, only if 30 series cards are still 'overstocked'.


The 3080 10GB is like the 980 or the 6800 (non-XT) of the graphics card world i.e. not worth it's price even at used card prices.


----------



## trog100 (Sep 11, 2022)

i wonder if all these future predictions are taking into account the super high price we are all gonna have to pay for energy.. ??

trog


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

trog100 said:


> i wonder if all these future predictions are taking into account the super high price we are all gonna have to pay for energy.. ??
> 
> trog



No, we're not miners like you.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 11, 2022)

I'm ok with my Ampere. Its pretty good. As noted.. games aren't really that much fun anymore, but they look nice. I'm not into these high prices in the coming future.. been looking at my other neglected hobbies, and things have progressed with them since I last left off, and much cheaper than computers lol..


----------



## trog100 (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> No, we're not miners like you.



i was thinking in more simple terms.. we are moving from a world where energy prices dont really matter that much to a world where they do.. 

i think unless this is taken into account what i read in this thread is kind of pointless waffle..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> No, we're not miners like you.


Anything drawing over half a kilowatt on a regular basis will probably be something worth noting in the near future, sadly.  This isn't just a miner issue.


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

trog100 said:


> i was thinking in more simple terms.. we are moving from a world where energy prices dont really matter that much to a world where they do..
> 
> i think unless this is taken into account what i read in this thread is kind of pointless waffle..
> 
> trog


This thread isn't "pointless waffle"
Energy used is silly to a gamer.

If my next card uses even 100 more watts  and my KwH rate doubles then gaming an average of 3 hours a day 30.33 days a month (average) then my electricity bill will go up $1 per month.

It's insignificant.


----------



## ppn (Sep 11, 2022)

Valantar said:


> What are those density calculations based on?


Nvidia Hopper H100 80,000 million 814 mm² TSMC 4 nm.
this means even 4050, 203 mm² AD106 has more transistors than a 3070 Ti. but it ends up slower for some reason.


----------



## trog100 (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> This thread isn't "pointless waffle"
> Energy used is silly to a gamer.
> 
> If my next card uses even 100 more watts  and my KwH rate doubles then gaming an average of 3 hours a day 30.33 days a month (average) then my electricity bill will go up $1 per month.
> ...



energy used is silly to a gamer but with the cost of energy (for some people) going up by a factor of 5 or so maybe it wont remain so in the future.. ??

trog


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

trog100 said:


> energy used is silly to a gamer but with the cost of energy (for some people) going up by a factor of 5 or so maybe it wont remain so in the future.. ??
> 
> trog



It's still insignificant if it goes up 5 times (which it won't) 

Gaming is still very cheap entertainment as an ongoing cost compared to other forms of entertainment with the exception of the initial cost in buying a graphics card.

Energy cost is only significant to a miner.


----------



## Lei (Sep 11, 2022)

freeagent said:


> I'm ok with my Ampere. Its pretty good. As noted.. games *aren't really that much fun* anymore, but they look nice. I'm not into these high prices in the coming future.. been looking at my *other neglected hobbies*, and things have progressed with them since I last left off, and much cheaper than computers lol..


sounds like midlife crisis
Me too


----------



## nguyen (Sep 11, 2022)

freeagent said:


> I'm ok with my Ampere. Its pretty good. As noted.. games aren't really that much fun anymore, but they look nice. I'm not into these high prices in the coming future.. been looking at my other neglected hobbies, and things have progressed with them since I last left off, and much cheaper than computers lol..



I have lots of hobbies too but they all involve a PC; my hobbies are RTS, Turn Base, FPS, MOBA, Battle Royale


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

Lei said:


> sounds like midlife crisis
> Me too
> 
> View attachment 261387



If freeagent is old then I'm older than dirt. 



R-T-B said:


> Anything drawing over half a kilowatt on a regular basis will probably be something worth noting in the near future, sadly.  This isn't just a miner issue.



You don't game 24/7 so it's a trivial issue.

It's only an issue to miners.


----------



## trog100 (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> If freeagent is old then I'm older than dirt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i dont think you grasp what is going on in the world.. 

trog


----------



## Sithaer (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> You don't game 24/7 so it's a trivial issue.
> 
> It's only an issue to miners.



For what its worth, where I live and what we pay for power currently. _'and its only gonna get worse most likely..'_
I pay about 10+$/ month with the low power draw _'around 230W from the wall when I game' _system under my specs and I barely play 1-3 hours/day on average rest is light use like watching YT/movie,etc.

So that makes it ~120$/year with my very basic use case and a low power system.
Doesn't sound much but it adds up and since I'm getting a RTX 3060 Ti next week it will be more._ 'oh my household wasn't happy about that one I tell ya..'_


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 11, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> 3080/10Gb prices on Amazon have hit below $750, 12 GB about $75-100 more. I'm gonna predict(speculate in case you didnt know) the 40 series cards will have the prices lowered at, or by, launch day.
> 
> _BUT_, only if 30 series cards are still 'overstocked'.
> 
> ...


the 3080 and 3070 hit new lows today. I only watch 4 online stores, Best Buy, B&H, Newegg and amazon (if anyone has any other good ones let me know so I can add them to my list) and only look at products that come from them and not other sellers. I found a 3070 for $499 and a 3080 for $699. This is the lowest ive seen them so far in the weeks ive been watching. The lowest I have found a 3080 12G is $769. Oh and an RX 6900 XT for $699.


----------



## Lei (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> If freeagent is old then I'm older than dirt.


I dyed my hair pink and yellow today. But I'm old.

Hint: original hair is white.

And my gpu is for AI and 3d modeling. 

One question: now that Elon bought twitter and then didn't buy it... Are Jack Dorsey and him still friends? If they're not, then it's good for bitcoin. (Bad for cryptocurrency, good for us)


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

trog100 said:


> i dont think you grasp what is going on in the world..
> 
> trog



You aren't able to divorce yourself from your miner thinking. It's not an issue for us gamers. We don't care. An extra $1 a month on the electricity bill is trivial if it even comes to that.


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> You aren't able to divorce yourself from your miner thinking. It's not an issue for us gamers. We don't care. An extra $1 a month on the electricity bill is trivial if it even comes to that.


I guess all those Italians, Brits and everyone else protesting en mass in Europe are all miners, right?

Just because it doesn't affect you in your ivory tower, doesn't mean it doesn't effect average plebs.

Someone else already said earlier that it adds up and it does.

So come off your high horse here and realize not everyone is you.  I can say choice words for you but I already know mods here can be selective in who they like to punish.


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

sepheronx said:


> I guess all those Italians, Brits and everyone else protesting en mass in Europe are all miners, right?
> 
> Just because it doesn't affect you in your ivory tower, doesn't mean it doesn't effect average plebs.
> 
> ...



 The mods will punish me long before they punish you. Have you ever been banned for a year for mouthing off to a moderator. I think not.

But anyway your increased electricity bill uptick will be trivial for the value retained in gaming as an entertainment source. If a couple of dollars extra a month is going to leave you destitute then you are a step away from living on the street anyway.


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> The mods will punish me long before they punish you. Have you ever been banned for a year for mouthing off to a moderator. I think not.
> 
> But anyway your increased electricity bill uptick will be trivial for the value retained in gaming as an entertainment source. If a couple of dollars extra a month is going to leave you destitute then you are a step away from living on the street anyway.


Value retained in gaming?  What a good joke mate.

Yeah, so I can play shit optimized tower climber #3645 for the umpteenth time.

Excuses being made because Nvidia can't optimize their crap worth a damn and just keep increasing power requirements just to make barely playable shit slightly more playable.  Oh, and the fact they also are gonna attempt to control the pricing market as well, is sad honestly.

All the while eurocucks are protesting cause their governments are retarded beyond belief and Italian grandparents are rummaging through garbage for food.


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

In every city that I have lived in here in the USA there is a community kitchen and a food bank. No one is going hungry or cold and they never will.

Who are these people searching into trash cans for food. Let me know and I will send them some money.


----------



## pavle (Sep 11, 2022)

Just dust off that old GTX 680 and go a round of Domination in UT99, you don't need any fancy ray-tracing there to look good!


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

Well, where are theses starving people? I will help whatever it takes.


----------



## ARF (Sep 11, 2022)

pavle said:


> Just dust off that old GTX 680 and go a round of Domination in UT99, you don't need any fancy ray-tracing there to look good!



lol, that 2012 card is not far behind the brand new Radeon RX 6400 

This only serves to prove that the whole AMD graphics department management should take their suitcases and catch the first flights to some distant islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, so that no one EVER hears about them AGAIN!





NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database


----------



## jormungand (Sep 11, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> the 3080 and 3070 hit new lows today. I only watch 4 online stores, Best Buy, B&H, Newegg and amazon (if anyone has any other good ones let me know so I can add them to my list) and only look at products that come from them and not other sellers. I found a 3070 for $499 and a 3080 for $699. This is the lowest ive seen them so far in the weeks ive been watching. The lowest I have found a 3080 12G is $769. Oh and an RX 6900 XT for $699.


ive seen those prices 2 weeks ago same stores, exact time before and after ive been watching to order my Asus  Tuf RTX 3080 12gb, and have been there back and forward for Nvidia.
The MSI ventus rtx 3080 is the one hitting $699 on amazon and ive read that its not a good card due to thermal issues. On AMD side is the real deal cuz those RX 6900 xt are down to $700+
and the Rx 6800 XT $600~$700 brands like xfx , asus tuf and Msi

I think Nvidia will keep controlling the market, and stay around msrp. prices. When they release the 4000 series they will keep the same prices or higher on the 3000 and beef up the msrp on the 4000. Why? cuz they can do it.


----------



## ARF (Sep 11, 2022)

jormungand said:


> ive seen those prices 2 weeks ago same stores, exact time before and after ive been watching to order my Asus  Tuf RTX 3080 12gb, and have been there back and forward for Nvidia.
> The MSI ventus rtx 3080 is the one hitting $699 on amazon and ive read that its not a good card due to thermal issues. On AMD side is the real deal cuz those RX 6900 xt are down to $700+
> and the Rx 6800 XT $600~$700 brands like xfx , asus tuf and Msi
> 
> I think Nvidia will keep controlling the market, and stay around msrp. prices. When they release the 4000 series they will keep the same prices or higher on the 3000 and beef up the msrp on the 4000. Why? cuz they can do it.



I don't like the 6900 XT. It is a terrible card.
The 6800 XT is much better and this price of $580 looks good, but I don't think it's worth it to go that far to buy one...

It's just not its time anymore.

You have to wait for a brand new Radeon RX 7800 XT.




amd radeon rx 6800 xt | Newegg.com


----------



## jormungand (Sep 11, 2022)

ARF said:


> I don't like the 6900 XT. It is a terrible card.
> The 6800 XT is much better and this price of $580 looks good, but I don't think it's worth it to go that far to buy one...
> 
> It's just not its time anymore.
> ...


i pulled the trigger on the ASUS TUF rtx 3080 12 gb -$749- amazon - and ive been running it for a week already. will be great to see that rx 7800 xt, but when will be available and at what price??
next year maybe, 2Q perhaps?? by that date nvidia should have release theirs and will be another gpu war, scalpers etc, prices over the roof. ATM Rx 6800 XT for my res for  the money is the best choice.


----------



## ARF (Sep 11, 2022)

jormungand said:


> i pulled the trigger on the ASUS TUF rtx 3080 12 gb -$749- amazon - and ive been running it for a week already. will be great to see that rx 7800 xt, but when will be available and at what price??
> next year maybe, 2Q perhaps?? by that date nvidia should have release theirs and will be another gpu war, scalpers etc, prices over the roof. ATM Rx 6800 XT for my res for  the money is the best choice.



Err, the RTX 4000 presentation is next week, Tuesday




VideoCardz.com - Home of Graphics Cards, Video Cards, GPUs


----------



## jormungand (Sep 11, 2022)

ARF said:


> Err, the RTX 4000 presentation is next week, Tuesday
> 
> View attachment 261409
> VideoCardz.com - Home of Graphics Cards, Video Cards, GPUs


presentation... but i watched the vid of Jayz and jensen is manipulating the market. I dont trust Nvidia will make a launch of rtx 4000 series right away. Like i said they can do it, extend for more time and control the market/prices of the rtx 3000 series. maybe im wrong and they will release it to the market day 1.....

its capitalism, free market.... i dont blame them, like Lord Becket should say:


----------



## QuietBob (Sep 11, 2022)

ARF said:


> the whole AMD graphics department management should take their suitcases and catch the first flights to some distant islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean


Tahiti sounds about right. Though Pitcairn, Tonga, Hawaii and Fiji are nice too


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 11, 2022)

64K said:


> Well, where are theses starving people? I will help whatever it takes.



There probably aren't many truly starving, but hunger is a legit issue in the U.S.  Food pantries always appreciate donations.  Need's greater now due to rising food costs.


----------



## 64K (Sep 11, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> There probably aren't many truly starving, but hunger is a legit issue in the U.S.  Food pantries always appreciate donations.  Need's greater now due to rising food costs.



Then I will give more than I currently give. I won't allow that anyone goes hungry.


----------



## ARF (Sep 12, 2022)

jormungand said:


> its capitalism, free market....



It is not free. It's a misleading definition.
The customers are not free to negotiate, they are put in front of a fact - the price set by the producer and no freedom at all..

A true definition would be _*profit market*_ or something similar...


----------



## Valantar (Sep 12, 2022)

64K said:


> Well, where are theses starving people? I will help whatever it takes.





64K said:


> Then I will give more than I currently give. I won't allow that anyone goes hungry.


If you're in the US, you really don't have to look hard. More than 10% of the population live below the official poverty line, which is _low_. For children, the poverty rate is >16%. For a single person with no children, aged 65 or less, the US poverty rate for 2021 was $14100. For a family of four, with two children below the age of 18, the poverty rate is $27500. And so on. And more than 10% of the population live below this threshold. _A lot_ of these people go hungry a lot of the time. For a lot of kids, school lunches are the most nutritious meal they get in a day.



jormungand said:


> its capitalism, free market.... i dont blame them


Why on earth would you not blame them? The only valid function these corporations have on this earth is to provide useful goods and services to people. Instead they're choosing exploitation and profiteering. This is literally the reason why the world is going to shit, and not blaming corporations for this is like not blaming the person taking a dump on your face for the smell, the taste, or the denigration.


----------



## ARF (Sep 12, 2022)

Valantar said:


> If you're in the US, you really don't have to look hard. More than 10% of the population live below the official poverty line, which is _low_. For children, the poverty rate is >16%. For a single person with no children, aged 65 or less, the US poverty rate for 2021 was $14100. For a family of four, with two children below the age of 18, the poverty rate is $27500. And so on. And more than 10% of the population live below this threshold. _A lot_ of these people go hungry a lot of the time. For a lot of kids, school lunches are the most nutritious meal they get in a day.
> 
> 
> Why on earth would you not blame them? The only valid function these corporations have on this earth is to provide useful goods and services to people. Instead they're choosing exploitation and profiteering. This is literally the reason why the world is going to shit, and not blaming corporations for this is like not blaming the person taking a dump on your face for the smell, the taste, or the denigration.



It is basically a system made by the rich for the greater good of the rich. While, the lower class, if lucky, can get somewhat decent living conditions but again with many limitations - for example, how many people can afford going to the Cook Islands in the middle of the Pacific (I mean for a short summer vacation)? 0.1% probably.

The system is very unfair, in some cases there are regulations, but they only apply to basic services/products such as the electricity/water/heat bills.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 12, 2022)

ARF said:


> It is basically a system made by the rich for the greater good of the rich. While, the lower class, if lucky, can get somewhat decent living conditions but again with many limitations - for example, how many people can afford going to the Cook Islands in the middle of the Pacific (I mean for a short summer vacation)? 0.1% probably.
> 
> The system is very unfair, in some cases there are regulations, but they only apply to basic services/products such as the electricity/water/heat bills.


Yep. Which is why saying "I don't blame them" is so fantastically absurd.


----------



## jormungand (Sep 12, 2022)

Valantar said:


> If you're in the US, you really don't have to look hard. More than 10% of the population live below the official poverty line, which is _low_. For children, the poverty rate is >16%. For a single person with no children, aged 65 or less, the US poverty rate for 2021 was $14100. For a family of four, with two children below the age of 18, the poverty rate is $27500. And so on. And more than 10% of the population live below this threshold. _A lot_ of these people go hungry a lot of the time. For a lot of kids, school lunches are the most nutritious meal they get in a day.
> 
> 
> Why on earth would you not blame them? The only valid function these corporations have on this earth is to provide useful goods and services to people. Instead they're choosing exploitation and profiteering. This is literally the reason why the world is going to shit, and not blaming corporations for this is like not blaming the person taking a dump on your face for the smell, the taste, or the denigration.


blame?? Still, people are paying for it, for gaming or making profits on the crypto mining side.  Its not an essential product, neither of us needs this crap to make a life. I can be kind of mad cuz i cant pay the top dollar they are asking for this kind of product, but at  the end, im the one deciding to pay for that or not so i can play a couple of hours with friends after coming from work. Their slogan is not, 'were making this world better' or ' lets Reduce E-waste'
They are putting a price on their stuff. i didnt pay the $1000+ on the crypto crisis, some did cuz they could afford it and want it to pay for that.
  World going to shit..??? theres nothing free and life is not fair.
And they are not doing business thinking on helping any of us. I can just turn my back and buy when i want and i can afford it.
I wont make a revolution fighting big corpos from a forum.
They can do what they are doing, everyone will just buy if their pockets allows it.
this its not like Cyberpunk 2077 dropping a nuke like Johnny Silverhand on Arasaka, Nvidia . Amd Intel all of them are the same.
One or the other one will be king and will raise their prices if they know theres a demand.



Valantar said:


> Yep. Which is why saying "I don't blame them" is so fantastically absurd.


i Dont blame them cuz it depends on which side you will be, buyer, seller or shareholder.


----------



## Lew Zealand (Sep 12, 2022)

ARF said:


> lol, that 2012 card is not far behind the brand new Radeon RX 6400
> 
> This only serves to prove that the whole AMD graphics department management should take their suitcases and catch the first flights to some distant islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, so that no one EVER hears about them AGAIN!
> 
> ...



And then Nvidia followed that up with the GTX 1630 for the same price which is even slower than both.  When Nvidia's graphics dept joins AMD on that island (apparently along with Intel's discrete division), all we'll be left with is iGPUs.


----------



## NoJuan999 (Sep 12, 2022)

freeagent said:


> I'm ok with my Ampere. Its pretty good. As noted.. games aren't really that much fun anymore, but they look nice. I'm not into these high prices in the coming future.. been looking at my other neglected hobbies, and things have progressed with them since I last left off, and much cheaper than computers lol..


I am still using an RTX 2060 Super (which I bought in 2019 for just over $400). It runs pretty much everything I throw at it at 1080p. I would be more than happy with your 3070. If/when I upgrade to a 1440p monitor I will probably look for a discounted 3060Ti or 3070.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 12, 2022)

64K said:


> You don't game 24/7 so it's a trivial issue.


AC doesn't run 24/7 either but people think about it.

I really don't follow the logic.


----------



## 64K (Sep 12, 2022)

We take care of our own.
We always have and we always will and we will try to help others when we can.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Sep 12, 2022)

jormungand said:


> blame?? Still, people are paying for it, for gaming or making profits on the crypto mining side.  Its not an essential product, neither of us needs this crap to make a life. I can be kind of mad cuz i cant pay the top dollar they are asking for this kind of product, but at  the end, im the one deciding to pay for that or not so i can play a couple of hours with friends after coming from work. Their slogan is not, 'were making this world better' or ' lets Reduce E-waste'
> They are putting a price on their stuff. i didnt pay the $1000+ on the crypto crisis, some did cuz they could afford it and want it to pay for that.
> World going to shit..??? theres nothing free and life is not fair.
> And they are not doing business thinking on helping any of us. I can just turn my back and buy when i want and i can afford it.
> ...


When a small handful of individuals can earn billions upon billions of $$$ with little return to the economy & those who are busting their asses for those corporate execs, there really is something wrong with the system.


----------



## Mister300 (Sep 12, 2022)

ARF said:


> RX 5700 XT was the worst. Designed during a difficult period for AMD in which the company faced the real threat of going under, to bankrupt, its share stock price was $1, and AMD had no money to design a big Navi 1 chip to fill the empty high-end niche.


AMD's debacle was the bundle scam they ran with either the 5700XT or Vega 56/64.  You got the lower price only if you bought a monitor/game bundle.  If they just priced the card at 350 USD, not 500 USD  it would have flown off the shelves as a 390X upgrade option.


----------



## 64K (Sep 12, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> There probably aren't many truly starving, but hunger is a legit issue in the U.S.  Food pantries always appreciate donations.  Need's greater now due to rising food costs.



I've doubled my contribution to the local food pantry but they don't seem to bother about any uptick in demand.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 12, 2022)

64K said:


> I've doubled my contribution to the local food pantry but they don't seem to bother about any uptick in demand.



Glad to hear folks in your area are doing well. A friend that works at one of our locals said they're moving double what they used to.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 12, 2022)

QuietBob said:


> Tahiti sounds about right. Though Pitcairn, Tonga, Hawaii and Fiji are nice too


Saipan too. Been there, done that, so has Nick Cage.


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 12, 2022)

64K said:


> Well, where are theses starving people? I will help whatever it takes.


I'm starving for a 6800.


----------



## Mikael Andersson (Sep 12, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I'm starving for a 6800.


You really want those 60 CU's huh?


----------



## Blaeza (Sep 12, 2022)

I have a 1660 super.  YES!


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 12, 2022)




----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 12, 2022)

QuietBob said:


> Tahiti sounds about right. Though Pitcairn, Tonga, Hawaii and Fiji are nice too



I had a pretty good time on Curacao and Antigua.

EDIT:  Oh, and on Ellesmere, too.


----------



## tussinman (Sep 12, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


>


I don't think it will have as big of an impact as most people think. 

New PC owners won't risk it (no warranty, limited places to buy, reputation for the used market isn't great)

More enthusiast people like us will logically skip it because we were active in the community summer of 2014 and summer of 2018 so we all saw first-hand the backlash that happened the last 2 times used crypto cards flooded the markets (bricked and artifacting cards being send out by the hundreds of thousands). 

Probably the most noticeable will be used cards in the price brackets that literally don't have a new card in (EX: 1080, 1070, 2060 sub $200) but even then those are very old cards and your still dealing with a decent amount of risk


----------



## ARF (Sep 12, 2022)

Lew Zealand said:


> And then Nvidia followed that up with the GTX 1630 for the same price which is even slower than both.  When Nvidia's graphics dept joins AMD on that island (apparently along with Intel's discrete division), all we'll be left with is iGPUs.
> 
> View attachment 261427



This is really nuts 
50% higher performance for less money 











radeon rx 6400 | Newegg.com
gtx 1630 | Newegg.com


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 12, 2022)

ARF said:


> This is really nuts
> 50% higher performance for less money
> 
> View attachment 261516
> ...



Right?  Back when it was 300- vs. 900-series, you'd just pay more money for the _same_ performance.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 12, 2022)

For 30 dollars more on that site you can have the 1650, that is about the same performance but have much better features the 6400 is missing. It's a much better offering. That difference in pricing is because Nvidia knows the 6400 is kneecapped


----------



## Lei (Sep 13, 2022)

nguyen said:


> I have lots of hobbies too but they all involve a PC; my hobbies are RTS, Turn Base, FPS, MOBA, Battle Royale


Get a cat.



trog100 said:


> i dont think you grasp what is going on in the world..
> 
> trog


Bitcoin is rat poison squared.

I also like Warrent Buffett's saying: when everyone is doing something, be scared. When no one is doing, be brave.



Appalachian said:


> the 3080 and 3070 hit new lows today. I only watch 4 online stores, Best Buy, B&H, Newegg and amazon (if anyone has any other good ones let me know so I can add them to my list) and only look at products that come from them and not other sellers. I found a 3070 for $499 and a 3080 for $699. This is the lowest ive seen them so far in the weeks ive been watching. The lowest I have found a 3080 12G is $769. Oh and an RX 6900 XT for $699.


So you're seeing msrp.



Sithaer said:


> For what its worth, where I live and what we pay for power currently. _'and its only gonna get worse most likely..'_
> I pay about 10+$/ month with the low power draw _'around 230W from the wall when I game' _system under my specs and I barely play 1-3 hours/day on average rest is light use like watching YT/movie,etc.
> 
> So that makes it ~120$/year with my very basic use case and a low power system.
> Doesn't sound much but it adds up and since I'm getting a RTX 3060 Ti next week it will be more._ 'oh my household wasn't happy about that one I tell ya..'_


I kinda need the heat Geforce is making. It's getting cold in here. 18°, why am I still not wearing any clothes? Even my laundry needs an app 



tussinman said:


> New PC owners won't risk it (no warranty, limited places to buy, *reputation for the used market isn't great)*



It's like saying you won't adopt a dog because it had a bad owner. 70%+ of my PC is from second hand market. No warranty. Whatever is good is good. Good silicon is good silicon, functional. I don't care if it's in a sealed box, used by a conscious owner or is sand on the beach. If it works I buys it


----------



## tussinman (Sep 13, 2022)

Lei said:


> It's like saying you won't adopt a dog because it had a bad owner. 70%+ of my PC is from second hand market. No warranty. Whatever is good is good. Good silicon is good silicon, functional. I don't care if it's in a sealed box, used by a conscious owner or is sand on the beach. If it works I buys it


No I was speaking more in general terms for the general/average electronic buyer (which is what I personally deal with for a professional living). Most of them would not touch the secondhand market for obvious reasons


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 13, 2022)

Lei said:


> So you're seeing msrp.


Except for the rx 6900 xt which is $300 below. Of course, the point wasen't that they were cheap, just that they are trending downward.


----------



## Lei (Sep 13, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> Except for the rx 6900 xt which is $300 below. Of course, the point wasen't that they were cheap, just that they are trending downward.


If 4080 comes with 16gb or 4090 comes at 1500$, I may get a bit upset.
But still, my 920$ 3090 was a captain's decision. I'm already using over 16gb in some cases.

The point I didn't wait more for used market prices to go any lower was: I thought a used card is like tomato, you get fresh ones if you get up early and rotten ones if you arrive in the evening


----------



## AsRock (Sep 13, 2022)

ARF said:


> Err, the RTX 4000 presentation is next week, Tuesday
> 
> View attachment 261409
> VideoCardz.com - Home of Graphics Cards, Video Cards, GPUs



Jensen made a comment that it be Q2nd 23 when they release the 40xx range.



Appalachian said:


> Except for the rx 6900 xt which is $300 below. Of course, the point wasen't that they were cheap, just that they are trending downward.




I got tired of waiting and just picked one up .


----------



## Lei (Sep 13, 2022)

AsRock said:


> Jensen made a comment that it be Q2nd 23 when they release the 40xx range.


Dude, nVidia Geforce official Twitter account changed its avatar to ProjectBeyond
nVidia website said the September 20th Jensen's speech is "game-changing"

It's not some kopite7kimi's bs



AsRock said:


> I got tired of waiting and just picked one up .


You did well. I reached a point where I realized waiting would give me a brain damage which could cost more than twice any msrp


----------



## AsRock (Sep 13, 2022)

Lei said:


> Dude, nVidia Geforce official Twitter account changed its avatar to ProjectBeyond
> nVidia website said the September 20th Jensen's speech is "game-changing"
> 
> It's not some kopite7kimi's bs
> ...



Well i have 0 interest in any PC using 500-700w+, yeah i could of waited a little longer and most likely should of waited until next month, but at least i got the one i wanted HAHA.

Ohh i payed no were near double haha.


----------



## dgianstefani (Sep 13, 2022)

I reckon project beyond will be some kind of real time AI integration into game engines, perhaps something similar to mac rosetta where it can translate x86 code into apple code for m1 etc. - usage of this to add RTRT and DLSS into every game?

That or something less interesting like offloading some jobs to asic type dedicated silicon, so the CPU/GPU core has more resources for pure FPS.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Sep 13, 2022)

Got tired of waiting as well. Got a used gigabyte 3080ti water force wb for 710 off eBay at the end of July. That's around what I would pay for a card + waterblock. Works fine. 

Nvidia priced me out of retail with the 10xx series. Been buying used since.


----------



## ppn (Sep 13, 2022)

pretty sure 710 can land you a 12GB 192 bit version of 4080 and 100 watts lower power usage at the end of 2022, 33% faster than the 3080 Ti.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Sep 13, 2022)

ppn said:


> pretty sure 710 can land you a 12GB 192 bit version of 4080 and 100 watts lower power usage at the end of 2022, 33% faster than the 3080 Ti.


Well, we will see. I have doubts about availability Also, will that 710 also include a waterblock?


----------



## Lei (Sep 13, 2022)

@dgianstefani
It's highly unlikely that Geforce twitter account teases like that, and we only see an algorithm, not actual cards.

@Spaceman Spiff
4080 won't be 699$
Watch the jay2cents video I posted earlier. It's Jensen's voice. He wants to reduce the sell-in. It obviously means a raise in msrp is coming. He's holding back supply to keep the prices from falling more. 

This video


----------



## ppn (Sep 13, 2022)

4080 12GB is on the same level as 3080 12 /Ti, of course with the speed 50% unplift, the card that is a step up pricewise could be 4080 16GB although I doubt it, more likely 4080/12 will be cheaper. JAy is in damage control mode since his preposterous claims that we should rush and buy the overpriced cards and can't be trusted anymore. And fair enough 3080 12/ Ti haven't budged much but that is because supply is thin while nvidia is secretly converting all remaining GA102 based cards to 3070 Ti in effort to hold the line high but they can't possibly succeed.


----------



## Lei (Sep 13, 2022)

@ppn 
That was Jensen's voice. 
He said we have cards, we don't put them on the shelves.

Why? If they put them on shelf (flood the market) price will decrease. Does that sound like 699$ for 4080 to you? 

There will never be a 16gb 4080. May be in 2025 a remake version like the 12gb rtx2060


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 13, 2022)

in case you missed inflation in the US is still very high, so more pain, less money, less cards sold especially if they want to keep crazy MSRP. I predict some sales right after release or MSRP must came way down.

PS: this may not apply to the 4080ti and such as those wallets are always full, but the rest will suffer.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 13, 2022)

ppn said:


> 4080 12GB is on the same level as 3080 12 /Ti, of course with the speed 50% unplift, the card that is a step up pricewise could be 4080 16GB although I doubt it, more likely 4080/12 will be cheaper. JAy is in damage control mode since his preposterous claims that we should rush and buy the overpriced cards and can't be trusted anymore. And fair enough 3080 12/ Ti haven't budged much but that is because supply is thin while nvidia is secretly converting all remaining GA102 based cards to 3070 Ti in effort to hold the line high but they can't possibly succeed.


... so, you understand that GPUs on shelves or on their way to shelves left Nvidia's (Samsung's, really, plus whoever does their packaging) production lines something like 3-4 months ago, right? If they're "converting all remaining GA102 based cards to 3070 Ti", that would either entail an entirely unprecedented programme of BIOS limiting already produced GPUs (which would of course be a massive problem, as they would have coolers and designs meant for 3080 12/Tis, and they'd have to issue massive refunds to AIB partners), or they would have to recall shipped GPUs to reconfigure them, which ... yeah, not happening. That would cost tens if not hundreds of millions, be a logistics nightmare, require implementing a high tech production line for a process that's never been done before at any type of scale, and cause massive lawsuits from AIB partners. Not to mention the difficulty of reconfiguring a GPU die after it's been packaged and had its model number laser etched onto the die in the first place.



Lei said:


> Watch the jay2cents video I posted earlier. It's Jensen's voice. He wants to reduce the sell-in. It obviously means a raise in msrp is coming. He's holding back supply to keep the prices from falling more.
> This video


Wow, that is surprisingly candid even for an earnings call. And Jay's analysis (to the degree that he does anything more than just reformulating what was said out of corporate BS bingo-land and into more plain language) seems spot on. That is Nvidia's CEO saying straight out that they're limiting how many 30 series GPUs retailers are currently getting access to in order to keep prices high, in anticipation of the 40 series launch. The _only_ possible reasons for that being "in anticipation of" that launch is to either make the 40 series look _good_ - same price, but more performance! - or to make it look _not that bad_ - 20% more expensive, but you get 20% more performance too! Going by their wording and the overall angle of Jensen's presentation, the latter seems far more likely, as it's clear that they _really_ don't want lower prices, and are willing to sit on inventory in order to do so.


----------



## SpittinFax (Sep 13, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Wow, that is surprisingly candid even for an earnings call. And Jay's analysis (to the degree that he does anything more than just reformulating what was said out of corporate BS bingo-land and into more plain language) seems spot on. That is Nvidia's CEO saying straight out that they're limiting how many 30 series GPUs retailers are currently getting access to in order to keep prices high, in anticipation of the 40 series launch. The _only_ possible reasons for that being "in anticipation of" that launch is to either make the 40 series look _good_ - same price, but more performance! - or to make it look _not that bad_ - 20% more expensive, but you get 20% more performance too! Going by their wording and the overall angle of Jensen's presentation, the latter seems far more likely, as it's clear that they _really_ don't want lower prices, and are willing to sit on inventory in order to do so.



Good supply and low prices will only happen if it suits the manufacturer, at the end of the day.


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 13, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... so, you understand that GPUs on shelves or on their way to shelves left Nvidia's (Samsung's, really, plus whoever does their packaging) ....



NVIDIA cards are produced by Samsung?


----------



## Lei (Sep 13, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> NVIDIA cards are produced by Samsung?


Ampere
GA102


----------



## skizzo (Sep 13, 2022)

SpittinFax said:


> Interesting you mention that. I've found that the real bottleneck is my game library, which is getting old and hasn't seen any new titles added in the last 12 months.
> 
> I'm not sure what has happened with the game industry lately but I've checked online stores many times and have consistently found absolutely nothing of interest. On the occasion that I do play, it's usually an old game I'm revisiting or maybe a single round of Rocket League. There's no games out there that I have my eye on at the moment. It's a total yawn-fest.



really? man I think the opposite! there are SO MANY good games out there, and my problem is I want to play them all. But since there is only 24 hours in a day and I need to have a life outside of staring at a TV I have a Steam wish list with 41 games on it   along with handful in my current library that have only ~30mins of play time which was just to check they run and I didn't need to refund sort of thing. I think it's pointless for me to buy a game just for it to sit in my library so I stopped buying stuff "just 'cause it's on sale and good deal". I'll buy it later when I find time for it and it will likely be cheaper by then.

but hey, everyone likes what they like and you don't have to explain yourself to anyone there. if nothing tickles your fancy that is new on the market....if I were you I'd say it's a good time to revisit a favorite I haven't played in a while. ahh nostalgia, 'member? yea I 'member!


----------



## Appalachian (Sep 13, 2022)

Lei said:


> If 4080 comes with 16gb or 4090 comes at 1500$, I may get a bit upset.
> But still, my 920$ 3090 was a captain's decision. I'm already using over 16gb in some cases.
> 
> The point I didn't wait more for used market prices to go any lower was: I thought a used card is like tomato, you get fresh ones if you get up early and rotten ones if you arrive in the evening


I'm with you there. I'm a bit risk averse, especially when it comes to computer components.



AsRock said:


> I got tired of waiting and just picked one up .


Man, its been killing me holding out. I actually bought a 12G 3080 for $799 about a month ago when I had too much to drink one night. I sent it back unopened when it got here.


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## wheresmycar (Sep 14, 2022)

Lei said:


> Ampere
> GA102



Sweet. Samsungs everywhere... watched a video sometime back, its not just products but services, government projects, etc etc... Legend has it no coding is involved, its just vocal algorithms with a guy called Sam who sung a song and Samsung was born.


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## AsRock (Sep 14, 2022)

Appalachian said:


> I'm with you there. I'm a bit risk averse, especially when it comes to computer components.
> 
> 
> Man, its been killing me holding out. I actually bought a 12G 3080 for $799 about a month ago when I had too much to drink one night. I sent it back unopened when it got here.



hehe, well the one i got was the RX-69XTACSD9 which is the limited version for $770 shipped, just playing the waiting game now. Only thing i am worried about right now is the spacing from the CPU cooler hahaha.

Always wanted to play thought  the witcher 3 again but with a solid 60FPS and this should do it haha.


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## SpittinFax (Sep 14, 2022)

skizzo said:


> really? man I think the opposite! there are SO MANY good games out there, and my problem is I want to play them all. But since there is only 24 hours in a day and I need to have a life outside of staring at a TV I have a Steam wish list with 41 games on it   along with handful in my current library that have only ~30mins of play time which was just to check they run and I didn't need to refund sort of thing. I think it's pointless for me to buy a game just for it to sit in my library so I stopped buying stuff "just 'cause it's on sale and good deal". I'll buy it later when I find time for it and it will likely be cheaper by then.
> 
> but hey, everyone likes what they like and you don't have to explain yourself to anyone there. if nothing tickles your fancy that is new on the market....if I were you I'd say it's a good time to revisit a favorite I haven't played in a while. ahh nostalgia, 'member? yea I 'member!



Actually the only games I've been playing to any real extent lately are original Playstation 1 titles. They're great when you just want to grab a controller and jump right into a game, even if it's only a quick 10 minute session. It's quite a luxury not having to wait for updates.


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## NoJuan999 (Sep 14, 2022)

AsRock said:


> Well i have 0 interest in any PC using 500-700w+, yeah i could of waited a little longer and most likely should of waited until next month, but at least i got the one i wanted HAHA.
> 
> Ohh i payed no were near double haha.


What GPU do you have?
I am a big fan of buying affordable GPU's. I am currently still running an RTX 2060 Super that I bought in 2019. I spent just over $400 USD for it and I will not be replacing it until I can get a 3060Ti or 3070 for around $400. I will then sell my 2060 Super for $150-200.

Not everyone is interested in running a GPU that costs close to a thousand dollars and needs a 800-1000 Watt PSU.


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## AsRock (Sep 14, 2022)

NoJuan999 said:


> What GPU do you have?
> I am a big fan of buying affordable GPU's. I am currently still running an RTX 2060 Super that I bought in 2019. I spent just over $400 USD for it and I will not be replacing it until I can get a 3060Ti or 3070 for around $400. I will then sell my 2060 Super for $150-200.
> 
> Not everyone is interested in running a GPU that costs close to a thousand dollars and needs a 800-1000 Watt PSU.



AMD 390X (290X originally ) so some 300% improvment over this card so no 40% bs hahaha.


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## GamerGuy (Sep 14, 2022)

I have a question which may be OT, but someone in the local forums in my neck of the woods is selling his Asus TUF RTX 3080 Ti 12GB for about 633USD, worth getting? Not sure about warranty status and such yet, though I've asked him and awaiting his reply.


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## oxrufiioxo (Sep 14, 2022)

GamerGuy said:


> I have a question which may be OT, but someone in the local forums in my neck of the woods is selling his Asus TUF RTX 3080 Ti 12GB for about 633USD, worth getting? Not sure about warranty status and such yet, though I've asked him and awaiting his reply.



Sounds ok, the 4070 or ti should be in the ball park for around $600-650 is my guess maybe 5-10% faster but you'd have to wait and try to actually buy one whenever they release.


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## GamerGuy (Sep 14, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Sounds ok, the 4070 or ti should be in the ball park for around $600-650 is my guess maybe 5-10% faster but you'd have to wait and try to actually buy one whenever they release.


Thanks, but I ain't biting because there was another interested party, I don't want to be caught in a bidding war so I'd withdrawn. Anyway, anxiously awaiting news of RX 7900 XT, etc.


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## Valantar (Sep 14, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> NVIDIA cards are produced by Samsung?


Their GPU chips, yes, not the cards themselves, as those are produced by board partners. But Nvidia has no ability to change the characteristics of a GPU die once it leaves Samsung's production lines.



NoJuan999 said:


> What GPU do you have?
> I am a big fan of buying affordable GPU's. I am currently still running an RTX 2060 Super that I bought in 2019. I spent just over $400 USD for it and I will not be replacing it until I can get a 3060Ti or 3070 for around $400. I will then sell my 2060 Super for $150-200.
> 
> Not everyone is interested in running a GPU that costs close to a thousand dollars and needs a 800-1000 Watt PSU.


Seeing how the 2060 Super is still an excellent GPU, and the 3060 Ti is ~35% faster, that sounds like a pretty bad plan. $400 two years later for a 35% performance increase, even if you reduce that to ~$250 by selling the old GPU, is rather poor value for money - an additional ~35% performance for an additional ~63% expense? You'll most likely be far better off by keeping the 2060S for another year and getting whatever you can find in that price range by then - whether that's a 4050, 4060, 4060 Ti, whatever. The 3060 Ti performance increase isn't large enough to be a real game changer - it can be matched in most games by lowering a setting or two by one notch.



SpittinFax said:


> Good supply and low prices will only happen if it suits the manufacturer, at the end of the day.


Not in any kind of moderately healthy market.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 14, 2022)

RTX 3090 Ti is $999 now with spider man game for free.

I'm seriously tempted. Shit. I want to wait for next gen... but on same hand we all know next gen is going to be hard as hell to get our hands on cause of third party store bot scalper bitches.


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## Lei (Sep 14, 2022)

@GamerGuy @CallandorWoT 

You can wait 6 days to find out msrp of next gen.
Nvidia already showed by 3090Ti and 80Ti that more money was printed this year than in entire history (inflation) but anyways you can pick an Ampere next week with more confidence. Be careful thought, if you wait too much baby will run away.


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## oxrufiioxo (Sep 14, 2022)

GamerGuy said:


> Thanks, but I ain't biting because there was another interested party, I don't want to be caught in a bidding war so I'd withdrawn. Anyway, anxiously awaiting news of RX 7900 XT, etc.



Don't blame you I'd be waiting as well for either a next gen card or even better deals on current.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 14, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> RTX 3090 Ti is $999 now with spider man game for free.
> 
> I'm seriously tempted. Shit. I want to wait for next gen... but on same hand we all know next gen is going to be hard as hell to get our hands on cause of third party store bot scalper bitches.



you are literally on top of the ethereum transition and the next gen release. You couldn't possible find a worst time to buy a gpu, just wait.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 14, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> you are literally on top of the ethereum transition and the next gen release. You couldn't possible find a worst time to buy a gpu, just wait.



none of that matters. the real problem is the massive increase in number of third party sellers who have bots that buy up the supply of any new hot tech item released to gain a quick buck on supply and demand issues. ps5 for example, it would have been sold out for a long time, true, but not as long as it was if it wasn't for the scalper bots.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 14, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> none of that matters. the real problem is the massive increase in number of third party sellers who have bots that buy up the supply of any new hot tech item released to gain a quick buck on supply and demand issues. ps5 for example, it would have been sold out for a long time, true, but not as long as it was if it wasn't for the scalper bots.



the money printing machine is in reverse now, inflation is at all time high, recession. Completely different times, i doubt the bots will do much damage if any.

PS: Again, this may not apply to the 4090ti super mega because the ultra deep pockets always have money. But things like a 4060, 4070 or even a 4080 will not see insane demand.


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## nguyen (Sep 14, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> the money printing machine is in reverse now, inflation is at all time high, recession. Completely different times, i doubt the bots will do much damage if any.
> 
> PS: Again, this may not apply to the 4090ti super mega because the ultra deep pockets always have money. But things like a 4060, 4070 or even a 4080 will not see insane demand.



It's the opposite, scalpers will target the cheaper GPUs....rtx3090 had good availability at launch and a few months after that, meanwhile 3060ti, 3070 and 3080 were scalped to hell.


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## Lei (Sep 14, 2022)

@Bomby569 bitcoiners can literally be bragging about their lovelace hashrate this Christmas

Well, this is interesting. We actually had an increase in the last report from 3dcenter






Link


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## 64K (Sep 14, 2022)

Valantar said:


> If you're in the US, you really don't have to look hard. More than 10% of the population live below the official poverty line, which is _low_. For children, the poverty rate is >16%. For a single person with no children, aged 65 or less, the US poverty rate for 2021 was $14100. For a family of four, with two children below the age of 18, the poverty rate is $27500. And so on. And more than 10% of the population live below this threshold. _A lot_ of these people go hungry a lot of the time. For a lot of kids, school lunches are the most nutritious meal they get in a day.



 I live in the USA and we take care of our own. No one is starving here. The "below poverty rate" is meaningless compared to third world countries where people really are starving.


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## Valantar (Sep 14, 2022)

64K said:


> I live in the USA and we take care of our own. No one is starving here. The "below poverty rate" is meaningless compared to third world countries where people really are starving.


That's an excellent example of whataboutism. "Suffering here doesn't matter/isn't real because suffering elsewhere is worse" is not a logically sound argument - and placing yourself as the judge of who is "really starving" is ... yeah, maybe have a think about that? As for saying that "below the poverty line" is meaningless - have you tried living off $14100/year with zero external support? I'd guess not. In most semi-densely populated US areas that sum would barely cover rent, let alone food or other living expenses.

Also, both in culture and policy, you in the US very explicitly _do not_ take care of your own.  You've been systematically deconstructing any and all societal support structures for decades now. Laissez-faire politics (aka. "small government" thinking) is not a way of taking care of anyone but the wealthy - it is the explicit policy of the state _not_ being placed in a role of caring for its subjects. If you took care of your own, you would have universally available healthcare, better labor laws, strong unions, and a bunch more. Charity is a band-aid on a severed artery; its main function is to alleviate the conscience of those giving and to give the impression of good-will towards those suffering, while doing little to nothing towards actually alleviating poverty and suffering in any real way. That doesn't mean it doesn't _help _- it very clearly does help those people receiving it in that specific moment. It is just nowhere near sufficient to actually change their situation, outside of a few random cases.


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## 64K (Sep 14, 2022)

Valantar said:


> That's an excellent example of whataboutism. "Suffering here doesn't matter/isn't real because suffering elsewhere is worse" is not a logically sound argument - and placing yourself as the judge of who is "really starving" is ... yeah, maybe have a think about that? As for saying that "below the poverty line" is meaningless - have you tried living off $14100/year with zero external support? I'd guess not. In most semi-densely populated US areas that sum would barely cover rent, let alone food or other living expenses.
> 
> Also, both in culture and policy, you in the US very explicitly _do not_ take care of your own.  You've been systematically deconstructing any and all societal support structures for decades now. Laissez-faire politics (aka. "small government" thinking) is not a way of taking care of anyone but the wealthy - it is the explicit policy of the state _not_ being placed in a role of caring for its subjects. If you took care of your own, you would have universally available healthcare, better labor laws, strong unions, and a bunch more. Charity is a band-aid on a severed artery; its main function is to alleviate the conscience of those giving and to give the impression of good-will towards those suffering, while doing little to nothing towards actually alleviating poverty and suffering in any real way. That doesn't mean it doesn't _help _- it very clearly does help those people receiving it in that specific moment. It is just nowhere near sufficient to actually change their situation, outside of a few random cases.



Do you want to know what real poverty is. Try to make a living on $500 USD a month equivalent in some third world countries but this is off topic so I'm out of this discussion.


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## authorized (Sep 14, 2022)

64K said:


> Do you want to know what real poverty is. Try to make a living on $500 USD a month equivalent in some third world countries but this is off topic so I'm out of this discussion.


Not even third world, some european countries have minimum monthly wages that are on a similar level, or even lower.


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## outpt (Sep 14, 2022)

this thread has run off tte rails


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## oxrufiioxo (Sep 14, 2022)

outpt said:


> this thread has run off tte rails



Well people who are at the poverty level are really worrying about them gpu prices I'm sure......


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## 95Viper (Sep 14, 2022)

Thread closed... as it has run it's course and is off topic.


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