# Modern case airflow vs giants of yesteryear, results... wow!



## AddSub (Jul 3, 2020)

So, I decided to move my OC/tinker-with/tweak PC (9600k OCd to 5.233GHz @ 1.36v & 2 x GeForce 1070-8GB in SLI) into a 13 year old Cosmos 1000 that I refurbed over the last week or so (paint job, some panel modding, etc). For testing purposes, I set it up as such, airflow wise: a single bottom 120mm intake, a single rear 120mm exhaust, a single 120mm top exhaust. Three fans total.

Host case is a "modern" triple tempered glass RGB "_errywhere_"  cube (Anidees Crystal AI Cube) with 4x120mm front intake, 4x120mm top exhaust, 1x120mm bottom intake , 1x80mm exhaust for the HDD cage.

All in all, 3 fans vs. 10 fans on the "modern" cube.

Observed results in the Cosmos 1000 were as such (oh boy!) (Cinebench R15 and 3DMark TimeSpy loops were used to warm up the hardware for 45 min a piece):

load CPU: 8C drop
idle CPU: 3C drop
load GPU top: 14c drop (!!!!!)
load GPU bottom: 12c drop (!!!!!)
PCH: 2C drop
VRM 6C drop

Yes, a 14C drop on the topmost video card!!! I was blown away a 13 year old case could do this with only 3x120mm fans. (albeit really good and somewhat loud 120mm fans, Kaze Ultra 133CFM non-RGB black brick looking things)

I blame the fact front glass pretty much chokes the intake on the host case (4x120mm front fans are pretty much drawing air from inside). Again, this is 90% of new cases on the market. The only viable intake on this cube is the bottom 120mm and that is choked off by the second GPU.

The latest move to "meshify" some of these modern tempered glass monstrosities seems prudent, but still differences I saw were major and I doubt adding $3 worth of plastic meshing up front as lame afterthought will fix what ultimately is poor design top-to-bottom (Entire supporting substructure of cases is tweaked, sometimes severely, to allow for better placement of thumbscrews or hinges for the tempered glass panels for instance.) I feel like modern cases need a major rethink and move towards airflow oriented design...  that is if the Twitch-Fortnite-RGB-tempred-glass brigade will let us have it, since they are major group setting the trends nowadays. Sigh...


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## BSim500 (Jul 3, 2020)

AddSub said:


> I blame the fact front glass pretty much chokes the intake on the host case (4x120mm front fans are pretty much drawing air from inside). Again, this is 90% of new cases on the market.


I'm not surprised. A lot of modern cases are pretentious beyond belief and almost entirely about form over function. One of the coolest running budget cases I've owned was a Rosewill Line M. How come? Because aside from the front fan not being starved of air, having 2x 120mm side fans blowing cold air directly onto the CPU, GPU & VRM's made a far bigger difference on temps in practise than "modern" front-only air intakes that are "balanced" to top exhausts. The "obsolete" top-mounted PSU design had reversible screw holes so that it could be flipped (facing upwards), so simply cutting a 120mm intake in the top of the case above the PSU with a Dremel and adding a magnetic dust filter on top meant that it too could suck cold air straight from outside of the top of the case, but also passive / fanless PSU's could directly vent hot air straight up and out of the top of the case (the best of both worlds whereas bottom-mounting is cr*p for fanless PSU's in any orientation). Top-mounted PSU also = the flexibility to use an SFX PSU (eg, Corsair SF450) with an ATX-SFX adaptor, gain a huge amount of space and solve the cable management problem by simply having naturally shorter 35-50cm cables "just right" for MATX/ITX that don't have an excess that needs hiding in the first place. Combined with a HDD mounting near the front 120mm intake, every component in the case (CPU, motherboard VRM, GPU, PSU and HDD) had cold air blowing directly onto it. Finally, it had those rare highly flexible things called "drive bays" which even if you don't own an optical drive today, still allow you to add newer USB ports (eg, USB 3.1 Gen 2 C or perhaps 2x extra fast charge ports that draw straight from the PSU via a SATA power cable so that 20-30w charge actually meant 20-30w).

So it's not uncommon to see £29 8 year old cases with drive bays and side air intakes that have better thermals and front USB connectivity than £99 8 week old overpriced pretentious tempered glass hotboxes, and if you listen carefully at night you can hear the latter quietly scream out _"I don't want to be a greenhouse, please just drill some holes in the side of me to let some cold air in over the hottest components!!!"_...


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## freeagent (Jul 3, 2020)

120x38s are pretty good, I have 4 in my case right now, but when I was running my Z77 the cpu cooler was lower so I was able to run 6x 120x38s. I mostly ran them at 7v, 12v for benching or stressing  I’ve got a new z77 board coming so hopefully she works, if so I’ll be slapping my other fans back in if I can. It’s an eatx board so I might have to move back to my Define R4 which would be a bummer. Hopefully I can make it work.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 3, 2020)

3 intakes ,3 outs is all that's required unobstructed.
Some glass cases are better than others and just as important.
Some builds are better at cooling than others.

Don't get me wrong though a good case doesn't become a bad case with age within Reason ,EATX has been solid.
So has that case, I always wanted one but wouldn't part with the cash.


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## John Naylor (Jul 3, 2020)

1.   You can eliminate differences in air temps between top and bottom cards buy mounting a 120mm fan on the back of the HD cage blowoing beweteen the cards... or where one had historically been.  You case is designed with a HD fan mount

2.  Good description of the 3 fan case but lacking on "10 fans"

3. Normally,  could improve things on the three fan situation:

Ideally, single bottom 120mm intake, a single rear 120mm exhaust, a single 120mm top exhaust, would be better served by single bottom 120mm intake, a single rear 120mm exhaust, a single 120mm front intake.  But they don 't have a front fan mount   Here's your issue.

a)  Intake fans are limited by the intake air filters, once dusty, they can reduce air flow by up to 30-33 % ... general rule of them is to have 1/3 to 1.2 more intakes than exhausts.   lets say your exhaust fans, w/o filters = 1.00 equivalent fans (EF) ... Let's be generous and say that you a bit anal about cleaning air filters and they never rop lower than 80%

Exhaust = 2 x 1.00 = 2.00 EF
Intake = 1 x 0.80 = 0.80

Since intake cfm must = exhaust cfm, that means 1.2 fans worth of air is getting in somewhere and that somewhere is mostly your rear grille and vented slot covers.  Now what's back there ?  Isn't that where your twin video cards exhaust ?  And your 950 watt PSU ?  Might not be bad on the workbench, but when typically placed on a desk with rear facing the wall, the hot exhaust from these components would surely be being sucked right back into the case.  You can demonstrate this easily with a $39 garage band fog machine from Amazon

So if you're modding the case, adding 2 or 3 fan mounts , along the  side down by PSU ==> HD cages would be ideal

Not enough info to address the 10 fan situation but I suspect, similar condition where hot exhaust is being recycled thru case.

BTW, I have never found a reason to use anything pushing more air than a 140 x 1200 rpm fan (well back in the 90s when rad fpi's were in to 30s, yes)  ... I tend to use a lot of them (due to push / pull on rads) but they rarely break 650 rpm and are dead silent.


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## Valantar (Jul 3, 2020)

Someone obviously hasn't been following GamersNexus's year-long crusade against poor airflow designs. Still interesting to see, but in no way surprising.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jul 3, 2020)

AddSub said:


> So, I decided to move my OC/tinker-with/tweak PC (9600k OCd to 5.233GHz @ 1.36v & 2 x GeForce 1070-8GB in SLI) into a 13 year old Cosmos 1000 that I refurbed over the last week or so (paint job, some panel modding, etc). For testing purposes, I set it up as such, airflow wise: a single bottom 120mm intake, a single rear 120mm exhaust, a single 120mm top exhaust. Three fans total.
> 
> Host case is a "modern" triple tempered glass RGB "_errywhere_"  cube (Anidees Crystal AI Cube) with 4x120mm front intake, 4x120mm top exhaust, 1x120mm bottom intake , 1x80mm exhaust for the HDD cage.
> 
> ...




Basically the Cosmos 1000 was an experiment in negative fan pressure. You might of noticed a lot of dust collecting inside your case over the years of ownership. Thats down to negative pressure. Theres not enough air being pulled into the case with the one fan so air is being pulled inside the case from every nook and cranny that has access to the outside world from inside your case..

A better test would be to remove the top fan completely or reverse it and re-run all your tests. Even if you remove it, id say you'd probably get better temps as the airflow is more balanced


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## thesmokingman (Jul 3, 2020)

You can keep your ancient cases. You won't pry this Phanteks 719 from my grasp!


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## claes (Jul 3, 2020)

With all respect to these older cases people here love (I always wanted a Cosmos, and have fond memories of my Sonata), but there are plenty of good airflow cases on the market, and some of the efficiency improvements in chassis design and components alike allow for a lot less airflow with good thermals. If you look to thorough reviews, like GN, you’ll see cases like the Fractal Define series, which borrow a lot from the best of older/standard designs, don’t fare well against a lot of newer (especially mesh) designs.

Check out this oldie but goodie (yes, a tragedy what’s been done to SPCR). With a little planning you can get a lot out of very little.

Still, I agree with all of you — we need better designs more than we need more bling. I’m dying to replace my FT02 with something more compact, but few manufacturers even attempt to make ATX (or even mATX, really) cases under 40L, and I’m not ready to shell out to smaller shops if they haven’t been reviewed.


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## Valantar (Jul 3, 2020)

claes said:


> With all respect to these older cases people here love (I always wanted a Cosmos, and have fond memories of my Sonata), but there are plenty of good airflow cases on the market, and some of the efficiency improvements in chassis design and components alike allow for a lot less airflow with good thermals. If you look to thorough reviews, like GN, you’ll see cases like the Fractal Define series, which borrow a lot from the best of older/standard designs, don’t fare well against a lot of newer (especially mesh) designs.
> 
> Check out this oldie but goodie (yes, a tragedy what’s been done to SPCR). With a little planning you can get a lot out of very little.
> 
> Still, I agree with all of you — we need better designs more than we need more bling. I’m dying to replace my FT02 with something more compact, but few manufacturers even attempt to make ATX (or even mATX, really) cases under 40L, and I’m not ready to shell out to smaller shops if they haven’t been reviewed.


Mainstream/large volume case makers generally don't care about making their designs compact - there are other things more important to them (such as RGB and tempered glass, sadly). If you want truly compact ATX the Cerberus X (designed by Chimaera Industries, manufactured and sold by Sliger) does that excellently and seems to cool pretty well despite its closed off front panel. There's also an upcoming case from Chimaera, the CX2 that is going to be cheaper (sub-$200 reportedly), supports eATX, has a mesh front, and is about 23L. For reference, that's 3L less volume than my NZXT H200i  Both do come with some compromises though: you have to choose between being able to fit an ATX PSU or the ability to mount a decent air cooler, but there's ample room for radiators all around. Of course these days there are great SFX PSUs that can power any high-end gaming system or workstation in the mortal realm (barring 4-GPU hotboxes I guess).


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## bobbybluz (Jul 4, 2020)

I'm on a PC at the moment that's in a modded Cosmos 1000 I got for $25 off Craigslist 10 years ago. I've done many things to it over the years for better airflow and last Fall I swapped furnace filters for the side panels. The 20x25x1 cheapos I get for 89 cents at the local hardware store  fit perfectly. The 4790K @4.6Ghz is running at 83 degrees F and the XFX R9289X at 95 degrees F. Other than needing to blow the dust out of it every two months it's fantastic.


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## freeagent (Jul 4, 2020)

I have an old Stacker STC-01 that you guys are making me want to put back in service 

It’s even got castor wheels


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## Vario (Jul 4, 2020)

The Cosmos 1000 wasn't even a great case for airflow compared to its contemporaries such as the HAF series.  I owned a Cosmos 1000 for a few years, great looking case! I recommend getting a 3x5.25 fan adapter.  I got mine from Mountain Mods.  I ended up cutting a hole in the front door for it.


			Mountain Mods ALU Triple 120 (Black Anodized) 5.25 baycover, Mountain Mods
		

I also ran a 120mm fan on the side window (I had the rare side window kit, which I cut a hole in and ran a 120 Phobya fan grill to make it less ugly.).  I don't know if I have a photo of the fan mounted on it.
After running a Cosmos 1000 for a few years, the overall size of that monster case started to bother me and I switched to the smallest ATX case I could find, a Lian Li PC A05.  I liked that case so much I acquired a few others for some family builds.

Overall I find my Lian LI PC A05NB runs even cooler, its a tiny case with not much interior volume, but I have a top 140mm intake with a very powerful Yate Loon D14BH-12 (a 140cfm monster) and a rear exhaust Corsair SP120L which is fairly powerful, the result is the case exchanges its air volume with the room easily and heat doesn't build up.

Anyway, here is how I set up the front intake mod:


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## claes (Jul 4, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Mainstream/large volume case makers generally don't care about making their designs compact - there are other things more important to them (such as RGB and tempered glass, sadly). If you want truly compact ATX the Cerberus X (designed by Chimaera Industries, manufactured and sold by Sliger) does that excellently and seems to cool pretty well despite its closed off front panel. There's also an upcoming case from Chimaera, the CX2 that is going to be cheaper (sub-$200 reportedly), supports eATX, has a mesh front, and is about 23L. For reference, that's 3L less volume than my NZXT H200i  Both do come with some compromises though: you have to choose between being able to fit an ATX PSU or the ability to mount a decent air cooler, but there's ample room for radiators all around. Of course these days there are great SFX PSUs that can power any high-end gaming system or workstation in the mortal realm (barring 4-GPU hotboxes I guess).


I’ve definitely looked into it, but I haven’t seen any reviews that mention thermals, although I admit that I haven’t looked at too many build logs. I saw one log reporting 95* on their 3700x with a NH-C14, but that may have been faulty reporting (according to the log). I didn’t bother to wade through the rest to find out if that was the case.

I’m a silence freak, too, so the small volume plus addition of filters (I am lazy) worries me, but, again, I don’t really know much about how well it performs. Curious to see some data.

I’ve long imagined a ~30L FT04 as my dream case (2 AP180’s and SFX, room for SSI-CEB boards, no HDDs), but have never gone further than sketches. I pitched it to the Silverstone rep over at OCN a few years ago, but they haven’t followed up with me yet for some reason.


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## maxfly (Jul 4, 2020)

Coolermaster HAF X, one of the best aircooling cases ive owned. 200mm fans were nice and quiet yet cooled every component well. Had to retire it due to wcing limitations.
STC-T01 was a great one as well @freeagent!
Still have both of them in my basement collecting dust along with the iconic lian li pc-65 aluminum that houses my retro c2q rig. 20yo case still looks great.
Like many have said the industry has for all intents flip flopped to form over function. There are still some really solid aircooled cases but the list get smaller and smaller.


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## Vario (Jul 4, 2020)

maxfly said:


> Coolermaster HAF X, one of the best aircooling cases ive owned. 200mm fans were nice and quiet yet cooled every component well. Had to retire it due to wcing limitations.
> STC-T01 was a great one as well @freeagent!
> Still have both of them in my basement collecting dust along with the iconic lian li pc-65 aluminum that houses my retro c2q rig. 20yo case still looks great.
> Like many have said the industry has for all intents flip flopped to form over function. There are still some really solid aircooled cases but the list get smaller and smaller.


PC-65 are still worth a good amount, real collectible.


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## Icon Charlie (Jul 28, 2020)

I have now hit 31 years in building rigs.  Case airflow management is one of my specialties.  I refuse to use any of the modern day cases  because of  they think is adequate in cooling.  I also refuse to listen to the advice of many of those Tech (influencers,  really talking heads pushing product) sites on youtube.  

 I have a Coolermaster HAF X  and someday I'll do a real old skool case mod to it, but by hands down favorite are the Corsair Carbide 400r and Corsair 500r as I get excellent cooling results with 3 fans.  I have 3 in storage  and that should last me for the rest of my life.

I am running hot components in my current rig, such as the MSI X570 A-Pro MB and the reference Rx5700 (Visiontek) video card.
My System Temps are  on the average 15c degrees higher the ambient temperature of my room.  My rig runs 16 hours per day.

My SSD and HDD run 1 to 3c degrees warmer than ambient room temperature. 

My Video card temps varies but the hottest recorded was 74c degrees and the ambient temperature of the room at the time was 105f (40+c) degrees.  My man cave gets hot in the summer as the sun hits the south facing almost all year around. 

Currently  I am watching a video and typing this up.  The video card temps are 44c junction with a ambient room temperature of 31.4c degrees as of this typing.

The reason why I am giving the temp info on my rig is that there is a great deal of suspect misinformation by influencers to sell product on how cool their case, their cpu/gpu coolers to make a fast buck.

You do not need the current case trends nor cpu/gpu cooling trends.

What you need is honest accurate data to make a honest decision when making the build.

IMHO the current cases are not that good.  You have to pay for your cooling performance what you got free 6 plus years ago.


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## silkstone (Jul 28, 2020)

Tempered glass cases are always going to be bad for airflow. Probably the best TG case for airflow is the Aquarius Plus which I have (a Lian Li Ripoff)
3x120mm bottom intake going directly to the GPU. 3x120mm side/front intake/exhaust. 3 top intake/exhaust and 1 rear exhaust.
This is a grand total of 10x 120mm fans! But, more importantly, the fans are going to the right places.


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## bobbybluz (Jul 28, 2020)

The Corsair Carbide 500R may be the perfect case for airflow and ease of modding. I have two and got them years ago when they were $59 after rebate on Newegg. That liftoff top panel makes externally mounting a radiator as easy as bolting it on after Dremeling slots for the hoses.


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## Icon Charlie (Jul 28, 2020)

BSim500 said:


> I'm not surprised. A lot of modern cases are pretentious beyond belief and almost entirely about form over function. One of the coolest running budget cases I've owned was a Rosewill Line M. How come? Because aside from the front fan not being starved of air, having 2x 120mm side fans blowing cold air directly onto the CPU, GPU & VRM's made a far bigger difference on temps in practise than "modern" front-only air intakes that are "balanced" to top exhausts. The "obsolete" top-mounted PSU design had reversible screw holes so that it could be flipped (facing upwards), so simply cutting a 120mm intake in the top of the case above the PSU with a Dremel and adding a magnetic dust filter on top meant that it too could suck cold air straight from outside of the top of the case, but also passive / fanless PSU's could directly vent hot air straight up and out of the top of the case (the best of both worlds whereas bottom-mounting is cr*p for fanless PSU's in any orientation). Top-mounted PSU also = the flexibility to use an SFX PSU (eg, Corsair SF450) with an ATX-SFX adaptor, gain a huge amount of space and solve the cable management problem by simply having naturally shorter 35-50cm cables "just right" for MATX/ITX that don't have an excess that needs hiding in the first place. Combined with a HDD mounting near the front 120mm intake, every component in the case (CPU, motherboard VRM, GPU, PSU and HDD) had cold air blowing directly onto it. Finally, it had those rare highly flexible things called "drive bays" which even if you don't own an optical drive today, still allow you to add newer USB ports (eg, USB 3.1 Gen 2 C or perhaps 2x extra fast charge ports that draw straight from the PSU via a SATA power cable so that 20-30w charge actually meant 20-30w).
> 
> So it's not uncommon to see £29 8 year old cases with drive bays and side air intakes that have better thermals and front USB connectivity than £99 8 week old overpriced pretentious tempered glass hotboxes, and if you listen carefully at night you can hear the latter quietly scream out _"I don't want to be a greenhouse, please just drill some holes in the side of me to let some cold air in over the hottest components!!!"_...



You are right on the Rosewill.   3 weeks ago I did a care package rig for a friend of mine who needed a new computer, which was 9 years old.  So I built one for free  and that case for my friends build.  

Drive bays as you have stated are really that important in all of my current builds.


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## Athlonite (Jul 28, 2020)

The one reason I've yet to get rid of my Silverstone RV02B-W it simply is the best air cooled case around as proved by Gamers Nexus


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## kiriakost (Aug 5, 2020)

My tower this is no more in production, I can not advertise it 

But if I was out today ...  for a case with potentials, I would get this one.








						4710713233898 Chieftec Bravo Bigtower, Black (without PSU) computer case BA-01B-B-B-OP-FOB
					

Kaypu Goods by barcode UPC or EAN or ISBN 4710713233898




					goods.kaypu.com


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## Athlonite (Aug 6, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> But if I was out today ... for a case with potentials, I would get this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Potential for what cooking your hardware with 80/92mm fans not only is it going to have poor airflow it's also going to sound like a jet engine there are much better full size towers around than this old timer


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## Icon Charlie (Aug 6, 2020)

Athlonite said:


> Potential for what cooking your hardware with 80/92mm fans not only is it going to have poor airflow it's also going to sound like a jet engine there are much better full size towers around than this old timer


While  there is merit with your comment I could work with this case.... If I need too.  However as you have stated there are better cases that you can get for the flaws that I see in the case. Especially during the 2010- 2014 era.  The case appears to have 3, 92mm fans (went to the site to take a look)  on the lower front side to allow air to cool those old and hot hard drives.

Here is a vid on it.


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## Vader (Aug 6, 2020)

Icon Charlie said:


> What you need is honest accurate data to make a honest decision when making the build.


Check Gamers Nexus. You really shouldn't generalize about reviewers because there's people out there doing a really good job.


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## theonek (Aug 6, 2020)

well ,still using this one here. It is an old case, a whole aluminium only build, except the side and top meshes, has housed many configurations over years, but i prefer it in front of most modern glassy cases with zero airflow or obstructed one....


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 6, 2020)

maxfly said:


> Coolermaster HAF X,


I prefer the HAF XB EVO. Very spacious.


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## Athlonite (Aug 6, 2020)

Icon Charlie said:


> Especially during the 2010- 2014 era



My Silverstone RV02B-W is from 2009 it has way better airflow than that junk box from Chieftec and is a large enough case to fit a lot of hardware into it


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## phill (Aug 6, 2020)

freeagent said:


> I have an old Stacker STC-01 that you guys are making me want to put back in service
> 
> It’s even got castor wheels


I'll have to dig out a picture of the two I still have here   810 v1 and 810 v2   Love those cases!!


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## Valantar (Aug 6, 2020)

theonek said:


> well ,still using this one here. It is an old case, a whole aluminium only build, except the side and top meshes, has housed many configurations over years, but i prefer it in front of most modern glassy cases with zero airflow or obstructed one....
> View attachment 164752


I had that exact case once. Grew to absolutely hate it. The airflow path is terrible (single front intake fan on the HDD cage, four side intake fans, top ... exhaust? and rear exhaust?), the side fan bracket/door impede AIC height and unless you cable manage your butt off with easily accessible extenders to discaonnect the fans is a massive hassle when working in the case, the case is generally cramped and difficult to access despite being huge, and the HDD bay is poorly thought out at best. Build quality was okay, but the doors were rattly and thin aluminium. Quite noisy for its cooling performance. And _so. Much. Wasted. Space._ Couldn't be happier that I got rid of it - I couldn't imagine building a somewhat modern system in that monstrosity.


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## Chrispy_ (Aug 6, 2020)

Not sure what you were expecting. 120mm fans have been mainstream for well over a decade. Since then the only thing case manufacturers have really done in terms of airflow improvement is block them up and add unicorn lights.

Props for doing the measurements and posting the results though.


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## theonek (Aug 6, 2020)

Valantar said:


> I had that exact case once. Grew to absolutely hate it. The airflow path is terrible (single front intake fan on the HDD cage, four side intake fans, top ... exhaust? and rear exhaust?), the side fan bracket/door impede AIC height and unless you cable manage your butt off with easily accessible extenders to discaonnect the fans is a massive hassle when working in the case, the case is generally cramped and difficult to access despite being huge, and the HDD bay is poorly thought out at best. Build quality was okay, but the doors were rattly and thin aluminium. Quite noisy for its cooling performance. And _so. Much. Wasted. Space._ Couldn't be happier that I got rid of it - I couldn't imagine building a somewhat modern system in that monstrosity.


yes i can agree with one thing - cable management is terrible but doable, airflow you can manage it even with 3 intake fans on the front, and this old case is far better than nowadays tin cans with breakable glasses. Also i didin't see any manifacturer to have aluminium cases to be made....


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## kiriakost (Aug 6, 2020)

Athlonite said:


> My Silverstone RV02B-W is from 2009 it has way better airflow than that junk box from Chieftec and is a large enough case to fit a lot of hardware into it


If I ever need a toy vacuum cleaner I will get your box.


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## Valantar (Aug 6, 2020)

theonek said:


> yes i can agree with one thing - cable management is terrible but doable, airflow you can manage it even with 3 intake fans on the front, and this old case is far better than nowadays tin cans with breakable glasses. Also i didin't see any manifacturer to have aluminium cases to be made....


There aren't many aluminium cases out there today (at least outside of the small volume SFF world - there are heaps of aluminium cases to be found there), mainly due to steel being cheaper, stronger, and a bit easier to work with in industrial manufacturing (less susceptible to damage etc.). But IMO that is perfectly fine; I don't see a case made out of aluminium to be any kind of benefit after experiencing the "quality" of that Stacker. I'd have no problem with it in smaller cases (where the lack of rigidity is less of an issue), but for a large side panel? No thanks. As for your airflow layout: sure, it can be done, but the front mesh is very restrictive (double layered mesh with large portions blocked by plastic framing), and there are no fan mounts, necessitating either some janky DIY solution or getting more HDD cages, which... no.). I see your point about breaksbility, and I'm not a fan of TG myself, but it would take much more force to break a TG panel than to permanently dent the thin aluminium of the Stacker. There are plenty of absolutely terrible modern cases, but there were plenty of bad cases back in the day too - and this Stacker is one of them IMO.



kiriakost said:


> If I ever need a toy vacuum cleaner I will get your box.


... Are you suggesting a case mod combining a PC with a roomba? That would be amazing. And yes, the Silverstone Raven series should be an excellent basis for such a mod


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## kiriakost (Aug 6, 2020)

Valantar said:


> ... Are you suggesting a case mod combining a PC with a roomba? That would be amazing. And yes, the Silverstone Raven series should be an excellent basis for such a mod



Once upon a time, computer forums were actually an Olympic stadium for people so them to demonstrate their mods over standard  PC cases. 
It was remarkable how many people were motivated to use all skills they had so to participate, naturally the very skilled and talented ones they was deliver a perfect mod.
Unfortunately all  those PC case galleries they are lost,  old websites fall and all that treasure, the demonstration of international human talent this is now lost.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 6, 2020)

133Cfm fans in the old boy make it an unfair Fight.

My old case is a backup server now.


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## John Naylor (Aug 6, 2020)

There is no question that the greats of old, as a whole, do not measure up to the best of today's product lines  ... Babe Ruth wouldn't be in the major leagues today.   Sports and technology are such that newer is better.  That doesn't make crappy new better than great old tho.  Yes, the best IPS monitpr is better than the best TN monitor. but that doesn't make a $250 IPS screen better than a $250 TN screen.   many of the cases mentioned in this thread were on our recommended list in years gone by.   That list changed significantly year to year back then.   Now it's Phanteks who brings a case of the year award home from Computex (since 2013) almost every year and others that seem to come out with a great design every now and then.

What has also changed is what people want ... Quiet cases are more desired today than they were in the 90s and other past decades.  We still see posts talking about 3000 rpm and high SP when frankly, they are not well suited to todays cases and radiators.  In the 90s ... a 3000 rpm fan was oft expected on a radiator because that rad was 30 fpi.   We have not had a build in 10 years that used a a fan that spun > 1250 rpm.  Those fans are usually off when system is idle, browsing or using office apps, 550-650 when gaming and 825 rpm when stress testing .   The only time we have found it necessary to use a 1500 rpm fan was back during 9xx series GFX cards were often paired up in SLI.  Mounting a 1500 rm fan on the back of the HD cage was a easy way to lode the 10C temperature difference between the top and bottom cards.  With 1200 rpm fans, you are turning the entire case volumes between 1.5 and 2.0 times per second.   Changing it 3-4 times a second doesn't bring anything to the table except excess and annoying noise.  To my ears, if i can tell my PC is on using my ears, its unacceptable.

The other issue that hurt case air flow was the arrival of AIOs.  Use of cheap aluminum rads required high speed fans and folks generally ignored manufacturers instructions and installed the fans blowing out of the case.   Their extreme speed, numbers of intakes being > exhausts and reduction of air flow by dusty intake filters usually exceeded the air flow provided by the intake fans. resulting in "heat recycling".    The air going out must always = air going in and what doesn't come in / go out via the fans will come thru the vented fslot covers and grilles at the rear of the case.   When case is under a desk or rear is facing and close to a wall, heat exhausted by the 250 watt GFX card(s), 750 watt PSU are all exhausting hot air to the same space that the make up intake air is being drawn from.


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## maxfly (Aug 6, 2020)

theonek said:


> well ,still using this one here. It is an old case, a whole aluminium only build, except the side and top meshes, has housed many configurations over years, but i prefer it in front of most modern glassy cases with zero airflow or obstructed one....
> View attachment 164752


just happened acrossed your cases cousin in neweggs latest email...








						Rosewill THOR V2-White Edition, Gaming Computer Case - Newegg.com
					

Buy Rosewill - THOR V2-W Gaming ATX Full Tower Computer Case White Edition, Supports Up to E-ATX / XL-ATX, Comes with Four Fans with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com


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## Toothless (Aug 6, 2020)

Gotta say, this thread helped me a whole lot.

I went from a Nanoxia DS6 to a Cosmos 1000 since I had no other free case to put my SR-2 in. I noticed right off the bat that everything was warmer but I'm contributing that to the much, much less airflow than the DS6. 

@Vario to the rescue with that 120mm fan in the drive bays! Going to order one (or two, maybe) and toss it in and see where that takes me.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 6, 2020)

phill said:


> I'll have to dig out a picture of the two I still have here  810 v1 and 810 v2  Love those cases!!



I have an Antec 900 behind me looking for a free home.  Just too lazy to do anything with it.


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## Toothless (Aug 7, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I have an Antec 900 behind me looking for a free home.  Just too lazy to do anything with it.


I could give it a home and everything, though I'm sure we live too far apart for shipping costs to be worth.


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## Vario (Aug 7, 2020)

Toothless said:


> Gotta say, this thread helped me a whole lot.
> 
> I went from a Nanoxia DS6 to a Cosmos 1000 since I had no other free case to put my SR-2 in. I noticed right off the bat that everything was warmer but I'm contributing that to the much, much less airflow than the DS6.
> 
> @Vario to the rescue with that 120mm fan in the drive bays! Going to order one (or two, maybe) and toss it in and see where that takes me.


It will help a lot, though my Lian Li A05 is actually a much cooler machine than the 1000, and much smaller, about half the size.  I ran six 120x38 San Ace on the Cosmos 1000  (2 on top, one on back, one on floor, one on front, one on the case side panel).  After dealing with that giant case for a few years I wanted the smallest ATX case I could find.  On the topic of MM, I really like Mountain Mod's Monticle design but the price tag is 3x as high as it should be.



kiriakost said:


> My tower this is no more in production, I can not advertise it
> 
> But if I was out today ...  for a case with potentials, I would get this one.
> 
> ...



Looks like a Chenming case.


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## maxfly (Aug 7, 2020)

Vario said:


> Looks like a Chenming case.



Good eye. It actually is built by Chenming. All of the dragon style cases from cheiftec, koolance,antec etc etc etc from the late 90s early 20s were built by Chenming.


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## ThrashZone (Aug 7, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> I prefer the HAF XB EVO. Very spacious.
> View attachment 164753


Hi,
I've got to do this perfect for box shaped cases   








						Borg Cube - Micro Center Build
					

My case mod takes us to the world of ST:TNG and the Enterprise's most fearsome enemy introduced in the second season of the series. The case I modded is the Cooler Master Elite 110. The inside components comprise a basic gaming rig, with a nod to the era




					www.microcenter.com


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## kiriakost (Aug 9, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> That list changed significantly year to year back then.   Now it's Phanteks who brings a case of the year award home from Computex (since 2013) almost every year and others that seem to come out with a great design every now and then.



That list not changed but accepted rather poorly influence by a new Asian clan of makers, which them promote eye-candy PC for display at the living room of the rich ones.
The idea of PC computing this is you to get able to use the CPU cycles in a productive way this helping you back at financial,  or education, or social or in all sectors together.
The verification of well AIR cooled PC this can last few weeks up to few months, but at some people this become a permanent illness.  

PC  this is sum of electronics components them working happily at 90 Celsius , capacitors they working happily at 105 Celsius, CPU this has thermal throttling at 70 Celsius.
Water-cooling this is an invention of stealing people money,  as is the eight fans PC  towers. 

Nothing of all that fake PC case fanciness, will either help in gaming and at high scores,  gaming performance this relying  at the player skills and brain cells and quality of perception, at dealing with unexpected situations. 
And this human performance has a peak the age of 45 years old and then degrades. 

And at first person shooters, you own life experiences  they do make the difference. 
Its not a miracle that all those playing flying combat simulators they are all true combat pilots, from all over the world. 
And no kid has a chance to compete with them,  no matter of how many RGB fans and of  latest VGA monster card he has purchage.  

Best and wise path this is not following blindly any fashion but rather to leave outside of your head any influences  coming from the industry of  eye-candy PC, and to focus at making your own life better.  Get better cloths, make a gift to a worthy friend, enjoy food with good friends instead.


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## Toothless (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> That list not changed but accepted rather poorly influence by a new Asian clan of makers, which them promote eye-candy PC for display at the living room of the rich ones.
> The idea of PC computing this is you to get able to use the CPU cycles in a productive way this helping you back at financial,  or education, or social or in all sectors together.
> The verification of well AIR cooled PC this can last few weeks up to few months, but at some people this become a permanent illness.
> 
> ...


Dude, what? The post you quoted is about a list and a brand winning awards yearly with others having some good eggs. You came out with a wall of text that I'm still having issues understanding. 

Can you do a short version of what you just typed out?


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## Vayra86 (Aug 9, 2020)

While a substantial drop, ambient temp is the big elephant in the room here. Did you make sure those were the same? I can imagine in a regular session the temp is quite a lot higher in the room than when you're just firing up a bench at some random moment.

But still yeah, I'll believe right away there is a noticeable drop with a decent case versus what's hot at the moment . Not a fan of that either, and I don't think I'll take a TG window again either, even if Fractal's Define C TG isn't all that bad on airflow.


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## kiriakost (Aug 9, 2020)

Toothless said:


> Dude, what? The post you quoted is about a list and a brand winning awards yearly with others having some good eggs. You came out with a wall of text that I'm still having issues understanding.
> 
> Can you do a short version of what you just typed out?



I am no dude,  but as gentlemen I will elaborate at specific questions.


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## maxfly (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I am no dude,  but as gentlemen I will elaborate at specific questions.


Either or, your last is impossible to decipher. What exactly are/were you trying to convey? Im honestly intrigued.


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## ThrashZone (Aug 9, 2020)

Hi,
Really what was all that about lol


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## Valantar (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I am no dude,  but as gentlemen I will elaborate at specific questions.


Here's a specific question: what exactly were you trying to say with that post? It is utterly and completely incomprehensible.


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## kiriakost (Aug 9, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Here's a specific question: what exactly were you trying to say with that post? It is utterly and completely incomprehensible.



*Reply to all three members asking for clarifications. *
Computing has nothing to do with water cooling madness, this is a fake need and smartly implanted at young people heads so the makers of such parts to get their money.
The same goes for the six or eight fans PC tower. ( Another myth so this to be consumed by Gamers ).
Since the moment that an idiot designer decided to place the PSU at the bottom of a case,  the on board DC fan become crippled about this helping at airflow, and it become instead a vacuum cleaner, sucking air and dust from the bottom of the case in to the PSU compartement.  

Today that robotic arms do all the work the price of pipe fitting this is no more than 0.30 USD Cent,  but the price as new this presented to be 12 or 16 USD. 
This market it is heavily twisted, and especially the product reviewers they are obligated to assist consumers about them making more reasonable choices.

Extreme water cooling solutions, RGB fans,  the six or eight fans PC tower, all are sort lived fashions, which they will move away soon.
This is my thinking, do not try to debate, just reject it if you disagree, but in case that you do disagree?  Just ask your own self of what is the resale value of  all such fancy items as used?  
If you make the mistake paying 25$ for a single fan by eight times, how much they worth if you sale them as used ?  I am predicting 60% loss of your money.


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## freeagent (Aug 9, 2020)

Ive used old Stackers, and had some Fractal cases, used some misc. cases in between, no case.. but my favourite case for air cooling is definitely the Meshify C. As for expensive fans.. I bought a bunch of 120x38 Panaflos eons ago for what many guys pay for weak in the knees but quiet Noctuas and they still out perform most modern fans, and I probably have another 10 years left with them.. been running since 2006 or so. They aren't pretty to most, and they are loud AF at full speed.


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## sneekypeet (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> *Reply to all three members asking for clarifications. *
> Computing has nothing to do with water cooling madness, this is a fake need and smartly implanted at young people heads so the makers of such parts to get their money.
> The same goes for the six or eight fans PC tower. ( Another myth so this to be consumed by Gamers ).
> Since the moment that an idiot designer decided to place the PSU at the bottom of a case,  the on board DC fan become crippled about this helping at airflow, and it become instead a vacuum cleaner, sucking air and dust from the bottom of the case in to the PSU compartement.
> ...



You make a lot of assertions that simply aren't true.

Water cooling is awesome for GPUs with all the newer boost clock features that air coolers do not maintain properly. Go ahead and find an air cooler for CPUs like a Threadripper or even a 9900k.

You have no idea about BOM costs of products being developed, nor the tooling to do so.

If you buy a PC for resale value,  its likely you did not need that PC in the first place.

Not even going to touch your stance on reviewers, as you have a strange outlook on everything else, so why bother.


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## kiriakost (Aug 9, 2020)

freeagent said:


> I bought a bunch of 120x38 Panaflos eons ago for what many guys pay for weak in the knees but quiet Noctuas and they still out perform most modern fans, and I probably have another 10 years left with them.. been running since 2006 or so. They aren't pretty to most, and they are loud AF at full speed.



The most wiser choice ever, I did that too with a single 2600 rpm 120x38,  and set this down to 1500rpm fixed. 
All performance and zero noise.



sneekypeet said:


> You have no idea about BOM costs of products being developed, nor the tooling to do so.



As industrial electrician I have plenty of good ideas of what a factory will use so to cut or perform machinist work over all type of metals.
What you are unfamiliar with and you are not alone, this is their production rate in a single hour. 
You are welcome.


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## sneekypeet (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> The most wiser choice ever, I did that too with a single 2600 rpm 120x38,  and set this down to 1500rpm fixed.
> All performance and zero noise.
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for proving you had no idea what you are talking about. Cheers.


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## kiriakost (Aug 9, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> Thank you for proving you had no idea what you are talking about. Cheers.



No offense taken for a very simple reason, *they will never *present a factory tour video, so the people to see how things are made today.


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## sneekypeet (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> No offense taken for a very simple reason, *they will never *present a factory tour video, so the people to see how things are made today.



Again, thank you for skirting around my previous points with jibberish. 

Fyi, Google is your friend to find factory videos for case manufacturers as well as cooler manufactuters.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> *Reply to all three members asking for clarifications. *
> Computing has nothing to do with water cooling madness, this is a fake need and smartly implanted at young people heads so the makers of such parts to get their money.
> The same goes for the six or eight fans PC tower. ( Another myth so this to be consumed by Gamers ).
> Since the moment that an idiot designer decided to place the PSU at the bottom of a case,  the on board DC fan become crippled about this helping at airflow, and it become instead a vacuum cleaner, sucking air and dust from the bottom of the case in to the PSU compartement.
> ...


Re selling a used fan , I throw them away or give them away simple.
RGB is what it is.
As for watercooled PC's not being required, for your needs/perspective, probably not no.
For many others ,me, thankfully they exist.


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## Valantar (Aug 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> No offense taken for a very simple reason, *they will never *present a factory tour video, so the people to see how things are made today.



You don't follow GamersNexus then. This should keep you occupied for a few days. Have fun:








						Factory Tours
					

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




					www.youtube.com


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## rtwjunkie (Aug 9, 2020)

Valantar said:


> I had that exact case once. Grew to absolutely hate it. The airflow path is terrible (single front intake fan on the HDD cage, four side intake fans, top ... exhaust? and rear exhaust?), the side fan bracket/door impede AIC height and unless you cable manage your butt off with easily accessible extenders to discaonnect the fans is a massive hassle when working in the case, the case is generally cramped and difficult to access despite being huge, and the HDD bay is poorly thought out at best. Build quality was okay, but the doors were rattly and thin aluminium. Quite noisy for its cooling performance. And _so. Much. Wasted. Space._ Couldn't be happier that I got rid of it - I couldn't imagine building a somewhat modern system in that monstrosity.


I agree on all those points. It looked awesome, and was the size of a large suitcase. And for all that, it had no space behind the motherboard tray. Cable management was a nightmare. Finally GAVE it away, with the stipulation they couldn’t give it back!


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## Toothless (Aug 11, 2020)

Delta finger remover installed, just gotta find one of my dust filters or grills.


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