# Radeon HD 9000 Series Arrives This October: Report



## btarunr (Jul 3, 2013)

When AMD re-branded most of its Radeon HD 7000 series SKUs to HD 8000 series, for OEMs, we saw this coming from a parsec away. AMD's next discrete GPU family for the retail channel will be placed along the Radeon HD 9000 series, and it debuts no later than this October, according to a Guru3D report. Interestingly, the report states that the first parts in the family will be based on existing 28 nanometer silicon fab processes, and will be codenamed "Curacao" and "Hainan."

We've had our run-ins with "Curacao," from time to time. It's been rumored to be an upgrade of existing "Tahiti" silicon, with 2,304 stream processors based on Graphics CoreNext 2.0 architecture, 144 TMUs, 48 ROPs, and a 384-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface. The Guru3D report adds to that with the mention of an improved front-end, which adds four asynchronous computing engines (ACEs), and three independent geometry engines.



"Curacao" will make up most of the top-tier, likely Radeon HD 9900 series; while "Hainan" succeeds "Pitcairn," filling up the performance-segment. "Hainan" reportedly features 1,792 GCN 2.0 stream processors, 112 TMUs, 32 ROPs, a 256-bit wide memory interface, and fewer ACEs and geometry engines than "Curacao."

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## ISI300 (Jul 3, 2013)

I call BS on this until there's an official announcement.


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## ViperXTR (Jul 3, 2013)

Ahh the 9 series actually reminded me of the legendary 9700 Pro


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## RCoon (Jul 3, 2013)

ISI300 said:


> I call BS on this until there's an official announcement.



Me too, but TPU rarely posts something without having a small fraction of evidence to back it up.
Only 200 or so more stream processors. All in all the "reported" hardware side of curacao doesnt look to be very much of an improvement over the 7970. If this is true, it would be a small step up.


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## Sempron Guy (Jul 3, 2013)

I think AMD's set-up from HD7xxx to HD9xxx is better than what nvidia is doing with their GTX 7xx series


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## btarunr (Jul 3, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Me too, but TPU rarely posts something without having a small fraction of evidence to back it up.



That small fraction is the source link.


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## nodata (Jul 3, 2013)

'384-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface'.. :shadedshu


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## Frick (Jul 3, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Me too, but TPU rarely posts something without having a small fraction of evidence to back it up.
> Only 200 or so more stream processors. All in all the "reported" hardware side of curacao doesnt look to be very much of an improvement over the 7970. If this is true, it would be a small step up.



If that is true, they should have gone with the 8xxx naming. Or they did this do be able to do some real naming with the 10 series. RADEON HDX! ASUS AMD Radeon HDX 10k990 XTPE DirectCU II rolls off nicely.


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## librin.so.1 (Jul 3, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Only 200 or so more stream processors. All in all the "reported" hardware side of curacao doesnt look to be very much of an improvement over the 7970. If this is true, it would be a small step up.



Tell me, when was the last time we had huge leaps in performance when going "from one series to another"? Exactly - long ago. Yes, I know that sux, but performance increases are getting smaller and smaller and there's nothing we can do about it and just have to love with it. The same is also true for CPUs. *sigh*


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## btarunr (Jul 3, 2013)

nodata said:


> '384-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface'.. :shadedshu



Is that a bad thing?


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## Jorge (Jul 3, 2013)

btarunr said:


> Is that a bad thing?



No that's a good thing as more bandwidth is possible.


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## Jorge (Jul 3, 2013)

As with CPUs, expect GPU performance gains to be evolutionary not revolutionary. There isn't a real need for more graphics power but some enthusiasts feel they need the latest and greatest so manufacturers are glad to oblige.


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## Frick (Jul 3, 2013)

Jorge said:


> As with CPUs, expect GPU performance gains to be evolutionary not revolutionary. There isn't a real need for more graphics power but some enthusiasts feel they need the latest and greatest so manufacturers are glad to oblige.



If 2560x1440 are coming down sure we need more GPU power..


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## librin.so.1 (Jul 3, 2013)

Frick said:


> If 2560x1440 are coming down sure we need more GPU power..



No, that's not it. The situation is vastly different.
Computing power is like Dakka - You can *never* have enough computing power. You'll *always* need more. And there is no such silly thing as "enough computing power".


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## Patriot (Jul 3, 2013)

Frick said:


> If that is true, they should have gone with the 8xxx naming. Or they did this do be able to do some real naming with the 10 series. RADEON HDX! ASUS AMD Radeon HDX 10k990 XTPE DirectCU II rolls off nicely.



They already using the HD8xxx naming scheme with the OEMs...
So to avoid more mass confusion HD9xxx ...


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## birdie (Jul 3, 2013)

I skipped every generation of AMD/NVIDIA GPUs starting from 65nm and ending with 28nm.

This time I will be waiting till 14/16nm shrink which will happen somewhere around 2015.


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## NdMk2o1o (Jul 3, 2013)

Jorge said:


> As with CPUs, expect GPU performance gains to be evolutionary not revolutionary. There isn't a real need for more graphics power but some enthusiasts feel they need the latest and greatest so manufacturers are glad to oblige.



They oblige? I thought they were out to make as much profit as possible, silly me


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## JoePesci (Jul 3, 2013)

I Hope that the 9970 can compete with the Titan in Order to Start a Price war.

Also, we will soon Need Single GPUs which can Run Games at 3840 x 2160. The New Screen Resolution, which is Four Times as much as the current Standard, is more like a Revolution than an Evolution. This Stands in contrast to what every New Generation of CPUs and GPUs have to offer, which can be considered only as (small) evolutions Lately. I'm Interessed to See how this whole thing will Turn Out.


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## hardcore_gamer (Jul 3, 2013)

JoePesci said:


> I Hope that the 9970 can compete with the Titan in Order to Start a Price war.
> 
> Also, we will soon Need Single GPUs which can Run Games at 3840 x 2160. The New Screen Resolution, which is Four Times as much as the current Standard, is more like a Revolution than an Evolution. This Stands in contrast to what every New Generation of CPUs and GPUs have to offer, which can be considered only as (small) evolutions Lately. I'm Interessed to See how this whole thing will Turn Out.



Couldn't agree more. We have to move from 1080 since the consoles have caught up.


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## afw (Jul 3, 2013)

Sheer performance aside AMD should work on the Performance per watt ratio cos the 7xxx aren't very efficient IMO ... 

btw the dual GPU will be "9990" ... thats a lot of 9s ...


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## AlienIsGOD (Jul 3, 2013)

meh i'll snag another 7870 at cheap prices rather than get a 8870 with its 256 bit interface, which seems like a castrated 7950 specs wise


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## hardcore_gamer (Jul 3, 2013)

afw said:


> Sheer performance aside AMD should work on the Performance per watt ratio cos the 7xxx aren't very efficient IMO ...
> 
> btw the dual GPU will be "9990" ... thats a lot of 9s ...




Performance per watt of 78 and 77 series is good.


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## KainXS (Jul 3, 2013)

this is probably going to be the last series of the Radeon HD line, wonder whats next


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## btarunr (Jul 3, 2013)

KainXS said:


> this is probably going to be the last series of the Radeon HD line, wonder whats next



Radeon 4K 2000 series, of course.


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## The Mac (Jul 3, 2013)

UD - Ultra Deffinition

lol


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jul 3, 2013)

afw said:


> Sheer performance aside AMD should work on the Performance per watt ratio cos the 7xxx aren't very efficient IMO ...
> 
> btw the dual GPU will be "9990" ... thats a lot of 9s ...



dont forget their overclocked water cooled edition: the ALL NEW RADEON HD 9999.


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## happita (Jul 3, 2013)

btarunr said:


> Radeon 4K 2000 series, of course.



I lol'd hard at that 

So what this news post is basically telling me is that AMD is skipping the 8xxx naming scheme of the desktop parts and going straight to 9xxx? What about the laptop parts?


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## librin.so.1 (Jul 3, 2013)

*Radeon Iris 100000*

(why go with 10k, when they can jump directly to 100k? )

Also, I believe their flagship dual-gpu should not be 9990 or 9999. It they should go a bit further, cause an overflow and end up with *Radeon HD OVER NINE THOUSAND*


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## AlienIsGOD (Jul 3, 2013)

Vinska said:


> Radeon HD OVER NINE THOUSAND


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 3, 2013)

meh I kinda call BS TSMC hasnt ramped up 20nm yet so mostly this looks to be more of AMD following NVIDIA's lead untill they can push out 20nm parts


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## btarunr (Jul 3, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> meh I kinda call BS TSMC hasnt ramped up 20nm yet so mostly this looks to be more of AMD following NVIDIA's lead untill they can push out 20nm parts



Curacao and Hainan are 28 nm chips according to Guru3D.


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## The Mac (Jul 3, 2013)

no node shrink till 2nd half of 2014.


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## badtaylorx (Jul 3, 2013)

oh no.....i only buy "even" number series'....

ie i had a  4870x2 to460-sli to 6970cfx to 670sli to what _would_ have been 8970cfx....


this sucks


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## seronx (Jul 3, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> meh I kinda call BS TSMC hasnt ramped up 20nm yet so mostly this looks to be more of AMD following NVIDIA's lead untill they can push out 20nm parts


These are Sea Island parts just so you know.


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## The Mac (Jul 3, 2013)

Originally these were supposed to be Volcanic Island parts (Tonga, Vesuvius, and Hawaii) and have shown up in driver INFs

It seems they are hosing with the names again.


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## Xzibit (Jul 3, 2013)

Wonder if they will be DirectX 11.2 compliant or will they hose us like Nvidia and stick to DirectX 11.0, in AMDs case just stick to DirectX 11.1.


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## HumanSmoke (Jul 3, 2013)

ISI300 said:


> I call BS on this until there's an official announcement.


Considering the information was largely disseminated from a WCCF article posted a few days ago, that in turn referenced a Chinese forum post, and is prefaced "AMD _might possibly _launch their next generation Volcanic Islands GPUs in October 2013" it all sounds less than definitive.


btarunr said:


> Curacao and Hainan are 28 nm chips according to Guru3D.


The WCCF/Guru3D/Andwhoeverelseisreprintingthearticle seems to gloss over at least one fairly important fact - the reporting of the Hainan chip as being some performance/enthusiast part when AMD's Dave Baumann has already stated that Hainan is much lower down the product stack


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 3, 2013)

btarunr said:


> Curacao and Hainan are 28 nm chips according to Guru3D.



which is fine and dandy but at the current power threshold they would need some huge clock speed gains along with the 300 or so shaders to make a huge improvement

its 15% shader increase with no known clock speeds but considering current designs most likely 1100 is the top clock speed to be seen on reference probably more likely to see 1000-1050

so from current looks about 15-20% if that, coupled with the fact there is still no Crossfire fix yet. Lets just say im not impressed, and I am willing to bet if the trail is followed long enough the source who gave this info is full of it.

This means AMD would release a card thats roughly on par with the GTX 780 but far more power hungry and hot, that said a game bundle like before would be nice,

Regardless this news seems a bit suspect. No disrespect you BTA but it just smells a bit to fishy but thats just my opinion.


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## KainXS (Jul 3, 2013)

agree


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 3, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> which is fine and dandy but at the current power threshold they would need some huge clock speed gains along with the 300 or so shaders to make a huge improvement
> 
> its 15% shader increase with no known clock speeds but considering current designs most likely 1100 is the top clock speed to be seen on reference probably more likely to see 1000-1050
> 
> ...


I like the game bundle u turn dude and these do sound about right as no ones expecting a revolution mere evo init.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 3, 2013)

well 15% shader increase does not = 15% more performance

in fact many shaders on the AMD cards go unused, so while there is a shader increase its wont impact performance that much

Daves 7950s kinda prove that point they clock as good as my 7970 Direct Cu II did and his 7950s regularly out performed my 7970 in 3Dmark Firestrike and other benchmarks and thats single card vs single card in terms of raw frame rate.

so unless AMD has magically completely redesigned the GCN core for a rehash of 28nm I dont see much of a performance gain.

On average at the same clock speeds a 7950 vs a 7970 is about a 3-6% gap

so if we keep clock speeds the same increase shaders by 300 we get nearly the same margin as between the 7950 and the 7970 as there is between this new chip and the 7970

1792
2048
2304

the increased ROP count could improve performance by how much that remains to be seen 
but from 1792 to 2048 there is a 3-6% difference average being around 4%
going from 2048 to 2304 would result most likely in a 5-7% difference so ROP count TMU while increased might offer more performance however I doubt it as the 7870 Tahiti XT can if pushed hard enough via clocks compete with its bigger brothers so we know bandwidth isnt an issue on memory at least.

As such unless they made some major revisions or are getting 15% higher clocks than the GHz edition I dont see performance improving that much. Thus it ends up being slower than the GTX 780 models available now. The dark horse again would be the TMUs and ROPs along with the mysitcal clock speeds if clocks are high enough and some optimizations are done on the back end in a meaningful way they might pull off a decent speed bump like the 4870 vs 4890 however I just dont see it happening.

AMD needs to LEAPFROG Nvidia to make itself relevant in the news not match what they have already.


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## Intel God (Jul 3, 2013)

Isnt Maxwell slated for Christmas or early in 2014?


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 3, 2013)

Maxwell looks to be mid to late 2014. We also have to remember that more and more companies are turning to TSMC including Apple as it tries to leave Samsung behind this will affect GPU shipments as well.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 3, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> well 15% shader increase does not = 15% more performance
> 
> in fact many shaders on the AMD cards go unused, so while there is a shader increase its wont impact performance that much
> 
> ...



Besides the usual optimization speal thats true id also like to point to 33% more geometry powers 3 from 2 geometry setup engines.
Also 4 from 2ace engines thats 100% up.

Im not saying it will be epic just you never knoooow , my fingers are crossed , my upgrade
Nerve is twitching.


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## Casecutter (Jul 3, 2013)

Curacao - 2304 stream processors, 144 TMUs, 48 ROPs, 384-bit
Tahiti – 2048 stream processors, 128 TMUs, 32 ROPs, 384-bit
_12.5% increase Sp and TMU’s while a 50% jump in ROP’s  _

Hainan - 1792 stream processors, 112 TMUs, 32 ROPs, a 256-bit 
Pitcairn – 1280 stream processors, 80 TMUs, 32 ROPs, a 256-bit
_40% increase Sp and TMU’s while no bump in ROP’s_

Just as reference, while "Bonaire" wasn’t actually GCN 2.0 (completely), it probably entailed some of the "learned" improvements. 
7790 - 895 stream processors, 56 TMUs, 16 ROPs,  128-bit
7770 - 640 stream processors, 40 TMUs, 16 ROPs,  128-bit
_40% increase Sp and TMU’s while no bump in ROP’s. That see's a 20-25% in performance, while a 20% lower Perf/watt from the 7770_.

Given that the GTX760 is 20% faster performance, though _better_ Perf/watt by 18% with a 7870 Pitcairn; if what "Hainan" GCN 2.0 offers as enhancement above what "Bonaire" provided with its' 40% bump, a 9870 clocked at 1Ghz and then with Boost should in theory be above the GTX760, while still improved on perf/watt.  Then consider "Hainan" would be about 28% smaller die, could AMD offer more than the normal "one-up’s-mans-ship" at $250?     

"Curacao" with 12.5%, but that huge jump it ROP’s might be all AMD needs to un-leash the Tahiti from Nvidias’ moniker of _"we expected more"_.  12.5% might not move the TDP up drastically, offering a "Curacao LE" (HD 9950) enough oomph to bounce the GTX770, while then "Curacao XL" gets some strong jabs on the GTX780, with nowhere near the price, while not much more on power than Tahiti.

Then is Volcanic Islands for Q1 2014... erupts on Titan?


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 3, 2013)

Well we will see but essentially we wont see a big jump until 20nm is ready,

The fact is GK110 was tapped out back when GTX 680 launched it may not have been a viable chip to bring to market untill now or NVIDIA could be sand bagging just as AMD probably is due to how long the change from 28nm to 20nm was going to take.

I expect AMD to be late to the part and match the GTX 780 but still be lower than Titan, which results in Nvidia being able to play the fastest single GPU card, AMD can't use crossfire as a PRO: untill they fix it so thats out currently its a wash nothing big till 20nm in 2014. 

Normally at this stage AMD would launch a 20nm part as part of the 7000 series to test the manufacturing process but since its not ready thats a no go. Oh well still dont believe this news. I could be wrong would be nice if I was wrong but currently I doubt it.

Granted back with the 7970 launched i called it on TS3 with a few other reviews that 7970 was a misbalanced GPU and didnt make sense

7770 = 640 shaders 128bit bus 16 rops 40 TMUs
7870 = 1280 shaders 256 bit bus 32 rops 80 TMUs
7970 = 1920 shaders 384 bit bus 48 rops 120 TMUs
that would have been the usual way amd steps up and steps down a mid range GPU, where as the 7970 seemed to be a one off to regain the crown instead when it launched. Essentially with AMD having fired key personnel they seemed to have lost that ability to scale up and scale down more effectively and efficiently.

another possible option was 2560 384 bit 48 rops but would have been far to power hungry at the time. This revision may change this but w.e it is seems to be more like GK110 was aka heres the GPU we wanted to release but couldn't.

at about 1800 shaders 32 rops seems to be okay but with the 7970 it can be noticed that while not entirely starved it could indeed benefit.


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## HumanSmoke (Jul 3, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> Well we will see but essentially we wont see a big jump until 20nm is ready


Which kind of puts everything in perspective. Are AMD going to release a whole new generation of GPU's only to have that series be superseded in half a calendar year?

TSMC are on record as saying volume production of 20nm is due (presumably) late in Q1 2014, which is also the timeline for GDDR6/DDR4. I'd find it hard to believe that AMD (and likely Nvidia) wouldn't like to jump on that particular train at the earliest opportunity.



crazyeyesreaper said:


> The fact is GK110 was tapped out back when GTX 680 launched it may not have been a viable chip to bring to market untill now or NVIDIA could be sand bagging just as AMD probably is due to how long the change from 28nm to 20nm was going to take.
> I expect AMD to be late to the part and match the GTX 780 but still be lower than Titan, which results in Nvidia being able to play the fastest single GPU card


Seeing the way Nvidia model their strategy, its not beyond the realms of possibility that they could release a full 2880 core GK110 (in whatever numbers/price), rename the Titan the GTX 880, and the GTX 780 the GTX 870 and still have AMD's top single GPU SKU paired against Nvidia's third best performance card. 


crazyeyesreaper said:


> Normally at this stage AMD would launch a 20nm part as part of the 7000 series to test the manufacturing process but since its not ready thats a no go. Oh well still dont believe this news. I could be wrong would be nice if I was wrong but currently I doubt it.


TSMC's contract with Apple for A8 production likely fits the bill for initial production for them. Small, relatively simple chips (low transistor count), that yield high quantities from limited wafer production.


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## esrever (Jul 4, 2013)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> dont forget their overclocked water cooled edition: the ALL NEW RADEON HD 9999.



Radeon Turbo HD ULTRA Remixed 9999XT 999Mhz EDITION with CROSSFIREX 2.0 REVOLUTION
Only for $999 and includes 9 games.


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## Super XP (Jul 4, 2013)

I am not sure about this HD 9000 series? I mean, they are skipping the HD 8000 series for the performance desktop. I other words, this 9000 series better be at the very least a massive update/design to justify it IMO. 


ViperXTR said:


> Ahh the 9 series actually reminded me of the legendary 9700 Pro


It was that 9700 Pro that converted me to ATI Radeon


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## erocker (Jul 4, 2013)

Super XP said:


> I am not sure about this HD 9000 series? I mean, they are skipping the HD 8000 series for the performance desktop. I other words, this 9000 series better be at the very least a massive update/design to justify it IMO.
> 
> It was that 9700 Pro that converted me to ATI Radeon



I think it is more likely they are calling it the 9 series because the 8 series is already taken by pre-built rebrands. Given that is already done, it makes sense.

That being said I have no doubt the new cards will be competitive.


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## jihadjoe (Jul 4, 2013)

9000 series GPU to pair with your FX9000 CPU! Vegeta would be proud.


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## jihadjoe (Jul 4, 2013)

Super XP said:


> I am not sure about this HD 9000 series? I mean, they are skipping the HD 8000 series for the performance desktop. I other words, this 9000 series better be at the very least a massive update/design to justify it IMO.



8000 series is exactly the same as the 7000 series. There aren't even any clock speed increases:

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/AMD_Radeon_HD_8970_Feature_Summary.pdf


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## alwayssts (Jul 4, 2013)

HumanSmoke said:


> The WCCF/Guru3D/Andwhoeverelseisreprintingthearticle seems to gloss over at least one fairly important fact - the reporting of the Hainan chip as being some performance/enthusiast part when AMD's Dave Baumann has already stated that Hainan is much lower down the product stack



This is quite true, although I reference it as Hainan as that is the accepted rumor-monger place-holder for the chip everyone expects to be 1792sp.  In the end it's really just semantics until we know what it's actually called.  It seems odd to reference it as simply the successor to Pitcairn.


As for 2304sp, I still do not understand how people believe this will be a native spec.  It makes no sense.  Not only from a product point of view (the first salvage sku is a 7970 with not needed rops?) but also efficiency.

With 2304 shaders, your mainline efficiency would be at 1111/6000 from a clock/unit pov.  The same as 1536 or 768sp and respective smaller buses.  Using faster ram doesn't make sense because a clock would not be reached to absorb the bw for efficiency...hence it almost certainly being a salvage part.  That doesn't stop them from releasing it first and harolding the full part later as the value high-end second-coming to make as much money as possible off early adopters, but it's just not realistic (especially since 48 rops would allow for 40-44 units) for that to be 'it'.  It would be a severe waste of resources.

As for everything else, 

Bonaire at 1100/7000 would be essentially equal to 650ti Boost.  
Not-Hainan Le/7870 will take on 660...the former probably with 1pci-e connector (150w)  
1536 1xxx/6000 would be fairly similar to 760.
1792 11xx/7000 would be very similar to a 770, slightly slower but conceivably use less power (225w).  
(Get why nvidia refreshed their lineup as such?  AMD is predictable and they preempted each important product with similar-to-better than expected performance.)
780 is clocked expecting a 2560 part at 1000/6000.  I think that AMD will take the over/under on that (2304 at 1xxx/6000 and 2560 at 1xxx/7000) hence creating a market between 770/780 and 780/Titan.  Truth be told, 780 should be the most efficient with regards to units/rops/bw, but AMD's arch won't be far behind and will be good for clocks/units/bw...and in theory should be able to clock higher within the same tdp because of smaller die size granted somewhat off-set by need for greater external bw (higher mem clock).


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## jigar2speed (Jul 4, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> which is fine and dandy but at the current power threshold they would need some huge clock speed gains along with the 300 or so shaders to make a huge improvement
> 
> its 15% shader increase with no known clock speeds but considering current designs most likely 1100 is the top clock speed to be seen on reference probably more likely to see 1000-1050
> 
> ...



I think i read somewhere that 7790 had GCN 1.1 due to which it had nice power saving - plus some of 7790 tweaking reached 7990 as well, due to which 7990 doesn't eat double power compared to 7970.


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## tacosRcool (Jul 4, 2013)

Maybe this series of cards may actually be new technology instead of Kelper 2.0 from Nvidia


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jul 5, 2013)

ViperXTR said:


> Ahh the 9 series actually reminded me of the legendary 9700 Pro



oh man...the memories. that 9800 xt 256 mb ddr2 edition with copper heatsink. saved up for months to get that thing when it released. hands down, best gpu ever. stupidly overpowerful for when it came out though. (late 03?)
put that on a pair of oced 1.5 ghz pIII chips and 2 gb of sdram....man, that machine was awesome. if only the motherboard hadnt died....


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## Ebo (Jul 5, 2013)

The best videocard they have EVER made was a gigabyte Maya II 9700 PRO, a true piece of ingeneering. I still have mine laying behind me in the box with a Abit motherboard  and a 462(AMD xp 2200, Oc'ed to 3.2Ghz) and it still rocks on win 98 with a good old game.

On to topic, i really hope the new engine CGN 2.0 till be better to take care of the microstuttering thats all that matters for me to get a upgrade. 
I have 2x5850 in xfire and to my need in games thats just about enough playing in 1920x1200, but i want a new screen 2550x1440 or even the new kid on the block, the Asus 4K screen,  im going to need GFX power in the end.
If 1 cant do it then i have to go xfire again.


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## TheHunter (Jul 5, 2013)

From what i've read once 20nm isnt a issue, AMD has 3-4 fabs to its disposal including TSMC.



But i agree if they release 2304core then it will be just between 780- Titan perf., 2560core would win, no doubt.  



Imo these graphs speak for itself...:shadedshu
http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/der-lange-weg-zu-den-ersten-20nm-grafikkarten


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## erocker (Jul 5, 2013)

Those graphs speak of more speculation and rumor. Not to mention they don't seem very accurate as far as comparison.


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## riffraffy (Jul 6, 2013)

It was that 9700 Pro that converted me to ATI Radeon [/QUOTE]

I still have my 9800 pro on my bookshelf in fact I also have 2 radeon 4850s one 5870 next to it  running out of storage room I'm still using 2 hd 6950s . AMD should send me a thank you note for putting all their kids thru college .


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## TheHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

erocker said:


> Those graphs speak of more speculation and rumor. Not to mention they don't seem very accurate as far as comparison.



Maybe, but its aprox. timeline says that real VI 9000 (Q4 2014) is still a looong way to go..


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## el etro (Jul 8, 2013)

alwayssts said:


> Bonaire at 1100/7000 would be essentially equal to 650ti Boost.
> Not-Hainan Le/7870 will take on 660...the former probably with 1pci-e connector (150w)
> 1536 1xxx/6000 would be fairly similar to 760.
> 1792 11xx/7000 would be very similar to a 770, slightly slower but conceivably use less power (225w).
> ...



 This series sounds like a tunning on the HD 7000 series to get more perf/watt, by the way we saw the improvements on kabini igp and 7790.

 I'm waiting a new pricewar... get a ~780 perf. card going to ~350$ would be nice.

 And Amd can make an oficial overclocked 9970 edition to troll the Titan


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## SIGSEGV (Jul 16, 2013)

Cr. Guru3D


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## Casecutter (Jul 16, 2013)

Here's the one thing that makes no sense... What’s the wait?  Obviously AMD has had such designs waiting in the wings.

Consider what they got from Malta; although we never knew if those aren't cherry picked Tahiti's, or had true improvements for power.  It pretty much indicated once production could provide lower leakage chips... things have the ability to improve.  While Bonaire, seemingly good return on performance and power usage, while only receiving GCN 1.1.  Perhaps a more sophisticated boost algorithms, true GCN 2.0 enhancements, with higher quality production might be some if not most of this 9XXX series, but why the wait? 

Figure even if AMD held off like mid-April; at that point it was "dried in concrete" to everyone what Nvidia had planned, a re-spin their GTX 6XX.  Even if AMD held back to that point to finalize product specs and send to fab, wouldn't they receive volumes of die candidates, send to AIB’s and have SKU’s for sale, I though that was like 18-20 weeks meaning more August-Sept.

October’s pushing 6-7 months, what gives?


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## erocker (Jul 16, 2013)

Casecutter said:


> Here's the one thing that makes no sense... What’s the wait?  Obviously AMD has had such designs waiting in the wings.
> 
> Consider what they got from Malta; although we never knew if those aren't cherry picked Tahiti's, or had true improvements for power.  It pretty much indicated once production could provide lower leakage chips... things have the ability to improve.  While Bonaire, seemingly good return on performance and power usage, while only receiving GCN 1.1.  Perhaps a more sophisticated boost algorithms, true GCN 2.0 enhancements, with higher quality production might be some if not most of this 9XXX series, but why the wait?
> 
> ...



Sales of current series is still good. It's about making money afterall.


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Jul 16, 2013)

So basically what I am getting from this is that I am good with my 7850's for awhile.

The Ati Rage Fury pro and K6-2 is what pulled me over to the Ati/Amd kingdom and been with them since.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 16, 2013)

erocker said:


> Sales of current series is still good. It's about making money afterall.



Im personally ! Dreaming! of a 20nm miracle and it would be a miracle.


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## Prima.Vera (Jul 16, 2013)

The top cards will have 2 or 3 GB of VRAM I wander...


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## NeoXF (Jul 16, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> which is fine and dandy but at the current power threshold they would need some huge clock speed gains along with the 300 or so shaders to make a huge improvement
> 
> its 15% shader increase with no known clock speeds but considering current designs most likely 1100 is the top clock speed to be seen on reference probably more likely to see 1000-1050
> 
> ...




1 GCN 1.0 core < 1 GCN 2.0 core

Also, GTX 780, and even GTX 770 for that matter, use more power than a R7970... so I dont know what you mean...


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 16, 2013)

much faster same power draw at 28nm theres no way AMD can increase performance to match while dropping power consumption also know one knows how good GCN 2.0 will it seems to be more of a  VLIW 5 to VLIW 4 change to me which resulted in little performance difference 

Going from previous AMD gpu changes

at the same process node

they will gain 10-15% max and increase power draw at peak by about 40 watts.

THe GTX 780 is roughly 18-22% faster than the 7970 GHz edition, this would mean going by previous AMD design changes and performance increases that if GCN 2.0 is much like the VLIW 5 vs VLIW 4 change then the new HD9000 series would be slightly slower than the GTX 780 unless AMD is willing to push the power draw much higher. 

THis means AMDs gpu will probably peak at 260-270w in a game and hit a maximum of 300-315w in likes of Furmark while being slower. Only way to counter act that would be higher clocks, which requires better binning = higher prices or even higher power consumption. 

Having owned every high end AMD gpu since the HD 4000 series, my past experiences tell me AMD will equal the GTX 780 while being slightly cheaper but will run hotter and have a much higher power draw to achieve it.

4870 1gb was 13% slower than the 4890
5870 was 12 % slower than the 6970
7970GHz edition will most likely be roughly the same difference.

4890 was 27% slower than the 5870
6970 was  23% slower than the 7970 GHz edition added 9% on to that for a 31%

Thus looking at past changes at the same manufacturering process it can be expected that the 7970 GHz edition will be around 12-15% slower than the HD 9970 or w.e AMD calls it which as it stands is not enough to make the leap to beating the GTX 780,  AMD wont risk pushing out the GPUs untill they can beat it soundly by a few % points in order to prove they are "better"

Regardless it wont matter much if AMD can rival the 780 while being cheaper COnsumers win. I just do not expect the gains everyone else does.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 16, 2013)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> http://tpucdn.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_780_TF_Gaming/images/power_peak.gif http://tpucdn.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_780_TF_Gaming/images/power_maximum.gif
> 
> much faster same power draw at 28nm theres no way AMD can increase performance to match while dropping power consumption also know one knows how good GCN 2.0 will it seems to be more of a  VLIW 5 to VLIW 4 change to me which resulted in little performance difference
> 
> ...



Vliw 4-5 ,??, I don't see it, and I think all the focus being placed on shaders might mean naught.
To me the details aren't there on gcn2  but I'm expecting a design aimed to differentiate via Hsa tweeks , after all ioummu or whatever it is has arrived and at rev 2 + ie established, and they are pushing hsa hard now , there Will imho be full dx11.2 support in architecture and therein another possible advantage.


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## Am* (Jul 16, 2013)

Sounds like a pretty mediocre card -- I sure hope it is more powerful than it sounds (they need it to be at least 80% faster than 7970). 4K resolution monitors/TVs should hit mainstream markets next year at latest and tests done by various websites proved that even a single Titan cannot pull off any decent framerates at that resolution. In fact, even BF4 alpha testing shows that current gen cards fail miserably at getting anywhere close to high settings in next gen games, even at 1080p. Current GPUs have all had great value thus far against current 7+ year old consoles but when next gen consoles hit, Nvidia and AMD need to bring their A-game and at least double the performance of every tier of cards sold for the same price as current gen cards, otherwise nobody will buy them (who wants another repeat of ATI's 2900XT? Nobody, but we all want another Nvidia 8000 series to follow up to next gen consoles).


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## Casecutter (Jul 16, 2013)

erocker said:


> Sales of current series is still good. It's about making money afterall.


Well things somewhat went in "free-fall" with the 760 release and subsequent stock and price that GTX660Ti had been holding.  As soon as folks got a look at the 760, price on GTX660Ti tumbled and pressed the last of the GTX660 to fall on the GTX650Ti Boost.

On the 78XX, now even 7850 2Gb are like $165 -AR and 7870 have been at $180 –AR having to slip with the GTX660 GTX650Ti Boost sell-off.  Now yes AMD probably still has substantial chips for both in the channel, you figure all such wafer capacity shouldv'e moved off the Pitcairn and onto Hainan. I think they'll slowly bring them to a trickle to try to re-attain a pricing of $160/$210.  As much as the 7790 was to back-fill the 7850 1Gb's, I think they're here to stay, vying what is the GTX650 Boost 1Gb.

I think a bulk of 79XX Sku's started slowly drying up after the 780, with most AIB's holding with just a few nicer Boost/Ghz offerings while maintain acceptable stock levels.  Most all the more generic stuff (not Boost/Ghz) have already been waning.  I think AMD and there AIB will finish out the summer aiming to recapture most of the what's the respective $270/410 price points.

I don't think AMD can see enjoying making less money on Tahiti/Pitcairn parts, and possibly even some sales being taken by "suppose" new models from Nvidia in the sweet spot of the enthusiast market.  Sure if they've huge volume in the channel, but why are they in that position?  There's been an abundance of time to work out such a transition.  It's as if someone dragged their heels on switching scheduled 28Nm wafer starts from Tahiti to Curacao / Pitcairn to Hainan.  The process is the same, they certainly held a schedule wafer starts, the design/engineering has been in place by all accounts, but somehow here they are 5-6 months in a holding pattern.  Is it only me that it’s not making sense?

The only thing is if they had made it like August it could be 6 months till a Volcanic Islands,  if they stay with October they’ve just a 3 month lull.


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## Prima.Vera (Jul 17, 2013)

Am* said:


> Sounds like a pretty mediocre card -- I sure hope it is more powerful than it sounds (they need it to be at least 80% faster than 7970).



Hard to believe they will keep the same performance increase like they did back in the day.

3870->4870->5870   Ah good days.


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## Frick (Jul 17, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> Hard to believe they will keep the same performance increase like they did back in the day.
> 
> 3870->4870->5870   Ah good days.



Historically it has been up and down. 80% would be fantastic for sure, but it won't happen and it can't happen.


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## Casecutter (Jul 17, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> 3870->4870->5870   Ah good days.


3870->4870 had even held to the same 55nm process but it really was like 36% increase. But that I believe was more what GDDR5 brought, AMD even surprised themselves...  The good old days when those who first jumped on the GTX260 found their AIB’s feeling obligated to print reimbursement checks!  



Frick said:


> Historically it has been up and down. 80% would be fantastic for sure, but it won't happen and it can't happen.



True, one might figure CuracaoXL offering about 25% above a Tahiti Ghz, while holding to a similar if better efficiency.   Figure 10% from increase Sp and TMU’s, while there's conceivably something from alleged 50% increase in ROP’s.  Weigh in low leakage production (Malta) parts curtail power usage, possibly even while presenting 10% increase in clocks.  All that while on the same or close to the same 28nm die size, so conceivably for a $500 MSRP.  That places it about par with a 780 working from a chip that is 30-35% smaller than the GK110, for like 28% less money. 

But seems it just won't come soon enough... Had AMD had them last May such printers might have ran agian.


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## Prima.Vera (Jul 18, 2013)

Casecutter said:


> 3870->4870 had even held to the same 55nm process but it really was like 36% increase. But that I believe was more what GDDR5 brought, AMD even surprised themselves...  The good old days when those who first jumped on the GTX260 found their AIB’s feeling obligated to print reimbursement checks!



Dude, my 5870 was a little faster than 2x4870 in CrossFire. 
I would love to see the 9970 having the same performance level as two 7970 cards. One can only dream right?


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## Casecutter (Jul 19, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> Dude, my 5870 was a little faster than 2x4870 in CrossFire.


Well a 4870-> 5870 saw a 39% increase @1920x (see W1zzards' release review; Sept) and that was an actual die shrink 55->40Nm, while in that same review the 4870 X2 was shown to be 4% above the 5870. Included in that you also should consider some  release driver (8.66 RC6) bump.  

While even some 7 month later in the MSI 5870 Lighting review, the 4870 X2 still best that OC Lightening by 5%. Some difference in test set-up like Win7 64-Bit and matured drivers.



Prima.Vera said:


> I would love to see the 9970 having the same performance level as two 7970 cards. One can only dream right?


We're not going to see anything like 39% in just a re-spin on 28Nm. I figure 25% in hardware, what they find in new release driver who knows.  If they gave us 7990 performance which is 22% more than a Titan @2650x, while holding to the alleged 250W... in a $550 card. Then where's that leave Volcanic Island 4-5 months ?


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## Prima.Vera (Jul 19, 2013)

Casecutter said:


> Well a 4870-> 5870 saw a 39% increase @1920x (see W1zzards' release review; Sept) and that was an actual die shrink 55->40Nm, while in that same review the 4870 X2 was shown to be 4% above the 5870. Included in that you also should consider some  release driver (8.66 RC6) bump.



I donno man, check those site with the reviews. There are completely different numbers than the ones you said.:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/radeon_hd_5870_review_test,15.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5870,2422-13.html

I agree tho, they were almost the same performance, to bad nowadays you will never see a next generation top card to have the performance of 2 top previews generation cards... Did they got lazy or what??:shadedshu


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## xvi (Jul 19, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> Dude, my 5870 was a little faster than 2x4870 in CrossFire.
> I would love to see the 9970 having the same performance level as two 7970 cards. One can only dream right?



Did the same here and saw about the same performance for half the wattage. Just replaced the 5870 with two 6950s though. Not sure why I did that.


I wonder how much my old Radeon 9800 Pro would go for on eBay when these new cards drop.


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## Casecutter (Jul 22, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> you will never see a next generation top card to have the performance of 2 top previews generation cards


Well this isn't truly Next Gen… that normally entails a significant change in architecture and on a die shrink (ie Volcanic Island).  This is a re-spin improvement of the GCN and 28Nm process.  

I say we'd be lucky if AMD further enhances this re-spin with a move from the TSMC "HPL" (lower power) process, and use the more performance driven "HP" process.  There had been speculation that AMD went with the HPL process to save on power (especially for Tahiti), and because TSMC HP process was having trouble... It wasn't showing ready for prime-time when AMD wanted to start 28Nm production about the beginning of the 4th quarter of 2011 (though TSMC kept a brave/poker face in the press).  Although, it was later found the problem wasn't process, but production issues that TSMC finally fixed with end Jan-Feb shut-down.  Such problems effected pretty much everyone's 28Nm node to one degree or another.  It's why Nvidia held out with GK104 production and didn't release the GTX680 until mid-March, while any real volumes didn't come till mid-end of April.

Hard to know if AMD persistent with the "HPL" process after the TSMC production fix, but I think they did and just released GHz models.  That's why see even with introduction of Boost, they still had an un-nerving 25% power usage jump for only 10% performance.  

So where does that leave us... unless AMD found a good amount efficiencies in this architectural re-spin they might not go to the HP process.  If they found enough ways to re-vamp architecturally power consumption could they go with the HP process and pick-up the performance benefits, while not giving too much of a compromise to higher power?


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## makwy2 (Jul 23, 2013)

Looking forward to the next step in the ATI/AMD - Nvdia war.  Can AMD gain market share? Let's find out!


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