# AMD Unveils World’s First DirectX 11 Compliant Mobile Graphics



## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

AMD today introduced its lineup of next-generation DirectX 11-capable ATI Mobility Radeon Premium graphics, including ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5870 graphics, the highest performance graphics for notebooks in the world.1 The entire family of DirectX 11-capable graphics consists of ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5800, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5700, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5600 and ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5400 series graphics. This top-to-bottom family of Direct 11-capable notebook graphics introduces compelling new features including ATI Eyefinity multi-display technology, bringing powerful visual gaming and computing innovation to the notebook PC. Notebooks featuring the new graphics technology are previewed at the 2010 Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in the VISION Experience Center, located in the Grand Lobby (GL-8 and GL-10) of the Las Vegas Convention Center.

"Six months ago AMD claimed the title of undisputed technology leader in desktop graphics, and now we also offer powerful mobile graphics processors for notebooks to go with our market leadership in that segment," said Rick Bergman, senior vice president and general manager, Products Group, AMD. "Once again, AMD changes the game both in terms of performance and experience. AMD innovations now give notebook users full DirectX 11 support, eye-opening ATI Eyefinity technology, superb HD multimedia capabilities, and ATI Stream technology designed to help optimize Windows 7 notebook performance."






The next-generation family of DirectX 11-capable ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 series graphics represents a powerful upgrade for OEMs to existing and upcoming 2009 AMD Mainstream and 2nd Generation Ultrathin notebook platforms, as well as next-generation "Danube" mainstream and "Nile" ultrathin notebook platforms scheduled to launch in the first half of 2010. These graphics innovations are designed to let you:

*Accelerate your mobile performance:*
The DirectX 11-capable ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 series graphics lineup is the first and only notebook graphics technology to support DirectCompute 11, allowing users to take full advantage of Windows 7, the first compute-capable operating system.
Enjoy new features, functionality and improved performance in top media, entertainment and productivity applications made possible by ATI Stream technology.
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5400 series (and higher) graphics fully support both DirectX 11 and OpenCL, enabling broad application acceleration support today and tomorrow.

*Maximize your mobile lifestyle*
ATI Eyefinity multi-display technology enables super high resolution panoramic computing for notebooks, allowing mobile users to seamlessly harness up to six monitors for improved gaming, productivity, and entertainment.
Enjoy enhanced multimedia capabilities through Unified Video Decoder 2 technology, for upscaling beyond 1080p and dual 1080p decoding of Blu-ray video and HD streams.
Benefit from state-of-the-art home theatre entertainment technologies including HDMI 1.3a Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, and advanced display quality from HDMI 1.3a Deep Color & x.v.Color for a theater-class entertainment experience.

*Dominate your games with DirectX 11:*
Enjoy intense gaming performance, unrivalled visual quality, and an overall superior HD gaming experience on HD-capable monitors with DirectX 11 (as compared to DirectX 10.1).
Realize the ultimate in game compatibility, as the DirectX 11 API was developed on AMD graphics hardware and all initial DirectX 11 games were developed or continue to be developed on AMD's DirectX 11-capable hardware.
More than 20 DirectX 11 games are currently in development, with gamers already enjoying the incredible DirectX 11 experience offered by titles such as EA Phenomic's BattleForge, GSC Gameworld's S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat, and Codemasters' Colin McRae: DiRT 2.
The next-generation DirectX 11-capable family of ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 series graphics is two generations ahead of DirectX 10.0 support found in competing mobile graphics solutions.

*Exceptional Power Efficiency:*
Benefit from four times the performance-per-watt efficiency over the last two generations of ATI Mobility Radeon Premium graphics thanks to improved processor design and a new 40nm process
Experience dramatically lower idle power, saving battery power when the graphics processor isn't needed
Next-generation Vari-Bright technology used for optimizing notebook display brightness delivers up to 50 percent power savings over the previous generation's software based approach
Platform independent graphics switching technology helps to save power while offering efficient switching options
GDDR5 Advanced Memory Support delivers double the memory bandwidth over previous generation AMD discrete graphics

*Industry Quotes:*
"ASUS has worked closely with AMD for years to ensure that we're collaborating to bring the newest and most compelling notebook technologies to our customers first, and with the DirectX 11-capable family of ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 series graphics and the ASUS G73 and new N series of notebooks, we're continuing that leadership," said P.C. Wang, Corporate Vice President & General Manager, Notebook Business Unit, System Business Group, ASUS.

"Today's consumers demand more of their notebooks, and to meet those changing needs, MSI continually strives to offer a wide variety of notebooks infused with leading technologies," said Sam Chern, Notebook Marketing Director, MSI. "Next-generation ATI Mobility Radeon Premium graphics are a perfect solution, introducing industry first features such as DirectX 11 gaming support that help us better address the full range of customers at affordable prices."

Notebooks with DirectX 11-capable ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5000 series graphics are scheduled to be available in the first half of 2010. 

Detailed specifications can be found here.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

You may want to check out specs of each GPU in the link above. Mobility HD 5800 series chips have 800 SPs, Mobility HD 5700 and Mobility HD 5600 have 400, Mobility HD 5400 have 80...

AMD did to Mobility HD 5000 what NVIDIA did to GeForce M GTX 200 series.


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## Mussels (Jan 7, 2010)

Unfortunately i havent memorised the 5K cards specs yet.

Radeon 5870 desktop:
    *  1600 Stream Processing Units
    * 80 Texture Units
    * 128 Z/Stencil ROP Units
    * 32 Color ROP Units



5870 Mobility:

    *  800 Stream Processing Units
    * 40 Texture Units
    * 64 Z/Stencil ROP Units
    * 16 Color ROP Units


Oh dear god... they cut it in half! shame!


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## El_Mayo (Jan 7, 2010)

Mussels said:


> Unfortunately i havent memorised the 5K cards specs yet.
> 
> Radeon 5870 desktop:
> *  1600 Stream Processing Units
> ...



so it should be as good as one of the 5770s?


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## Mussels (Jan 7, 2010)

El_Mayo said:


> so it should be as good as one of the 5770s?



    *  800 Stream Processing Units
    * 40 Texture Units
    * 64 Z/Stencil ROP Units
    * 16 Color ROP Units



it *is* a 5770 :S














PCI-E 2.1?


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## El_Mayo (Jan 7, 2010)

Mussels said:


> *  800 Stream Processing Units
> * 40 Texture Units
> * 64 Z/Stencil ROP Units
> * 16 Color ROP Units
> ...




i wasn't aware of the 5770 specification


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## happita (Jan 7, 2010)

Well, it is certainly a letdown, but it kinda makes sense.

Notebook cooling is nowhere near efficient as desktops are. But a 5770 for a notebook, that sounds pretty sweet to me.


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## Caonima (Jan 7, 2010)

I agree with 2nd floor,a too castrated edition unlike Mobility Radeon HD 4000 series,disappointing.


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## Caonima (Jan 7, 2010)

Even worse than desktop HD 5770,so dismal.


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## Mussels (Jan 7, 2010)

a 5770 is enough balls for a laptop - if only they'd stuck with that name


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## CharlO (Jan 7, 2010)

btarunr said:


> You may want to check out specs of each GPU in the link above. Mobility HD 5800 series chips have 800 SPs, Mobility HD 5700 and Mobility HD 5600 have 400, Mobility HD 5400 have 80...
> 
> AMD did to Mobility HD 5000 what NVIDIA did to GeForce M GTX 200 series.




You gotta be kidding; check this out!

Raedon Mobility HD 5870;

Speeds & Feeds
Engine clock speed: 700 MHz
Processing power (single precision): 1.12 TeraFLOPS
Polygon throughput: 700M polygons/sec
Data fetch rate (32-bit): 112 billion fetches/sec
Texel fill rate (bilinear filtered): 28 Gigatexels/sec
Pixel fill rate: 11.2 Gigapixels/sec
Anti-aliased pixel fill rate: 44.8 Gigasamples/sec
Memory clock speed: 1.0 GHz
Memory data rate: 4.0 Gbps
Memory bandwidth: 64 GB/sec
TDP: 50 Watts

That on a laptop, my desktop is crying.


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## robal (Jan 7, 2010)

btarunr said:


> You may want to check out specs of each GPU in the link above. Mobility HD 5800 series chips have 800 SPs, Mobility HD 5700 and Mobility HD 5600 have 400, Mobility HD 5400 have 80...
> 
> AMD did to Mobility HD 5000 what NVIDIA did to GeForce M GTX 200 series.



Well, you didn't expect the mobile part to have same specs as desktop one...
That would melt laptop to a pile of goo.


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## Mussels (Jan 7, 2010)

robal said:


> Well, you didn't expect the mobile part to have same specs as desktop one...
> That would melt laptop to a pile of goo.



you obviously havent been paying much attention. Last generation, ATI did exactly that.


http://www.amd.com/us/products/desk.../Pages/ati-radeon-hd-4870-specifications.aspx

http://www.amd.com/us/products/note...00/hd-4850-4870/Pages/hd-4850-4870-specs.aspx


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## KainXS (Jan 7, 2010)

well . . . . amd has pulled an nvidia on us, the future of mobility dosen't look too good now.


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## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

robal said:


> Well, you didn't expect the mobile part to have same specs as desktop one...
> That would melt laptop to a pile of goo.



No, I did, because Mobility HD 4870 had nearly the same specs as the desktop part, and the AMD RV770 (HD 4870) has nearly the same thermal characteristics as the AMD Cypress (desktop HD 5870). No laptops melted.


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## Imsochobo (Jan 7, 2010)

robal said:


> Well, you didn't expect the mobile part to have same specs as desktop one...
> That would melt laptop to a pile of goo.



Ever tried W90VP ?

No.

4870 Crossfire!

Not same specs as desktop(lower clock)

But the point is:
Nvidia started doing rebrand (Lets for god sake it doesnt get worse than this with ati)
They are actually using 5770 in laptops and not 4870.
GTX260M = 9800GT for those who still doesnt know.

Anyways, dont like this, but i think nvidia kinda pushed it on them.
Still easy for us who know it, since every model is one 5X70 (X) under the desktop counterpart.
but still not right...


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## Mussels (Jan 7, 2010)

Imsochobo said:


> Ever tried W90VP ?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...



nvidia started rebranding a long time ago. Geforce 4MX line? yeah, geforce 2 rebadge.


Same card @ lower clocks was expected and accepted in laptop cards, at least.

Calling two cards the same name, when one is literally half the other is completely wrong. (Nvidia does worse, but this is still unacceptable)


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## OneCool (Jan 7, 2010)

Even if they did cut it back so what.It will still be a monster in a laptop.

Id trade my HD4570 for a crippled HD5870 any day


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 7, 2010)

Only reason these cards are not matching their desktop counterparts is because of the thermal constraints found in a laptop.

You would have to run a box fan or a blow drier fan underneath just to expel the heat and that would make your balls sweat more.

The last time a Desktop and laptop video card matched as of Specs other than clock speed was the Radeon 9800 and M18 (MR9800) from 2002-2004. The M18 was found in the Dell Inspiron 9100/XPS Gen 1, which in fact was a Desktop Replacement/Hefty Laptop (Matched the weight of a Toughbook without the ruggedization). I found out the M18 was based on a newer process than the Desktop Part which was actually the AGP Radeon x800 series (R420). At that time it was possible to do that with video cards  being released at a pace that was somewhat slow.  Also the only way to obtain maximum performance is to have the devices hooked up to a power source other than a battery.

Since I knew about the M18 being based upon the R420 I attempted a Mod Bios flash to see if I could open more pixel pipelines- which to amazement it failed resulting in replacing the video card (500 USD at the time- OUCH!).


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## CharlO (Jan 7, 2010)

Imsochobo said:


> GTX260M = 9800GT for those who still doesnt know.



9800GT = 8800 GT  Should't have bought that 

Ati is the way to go, at least now I know.


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## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> Only reason these cards are not matching their desktop counterparts is because of the thermal constraints found in a laptop.



Orly? Where were these constraints with Mobility HD 4870? Like I said, RV770 has nearly the same thermals as Cypress, so that argument doesn't count.


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## Fourstaff (Jan 7, 2010)

Why cant they name the current 5800M into 5700M instead to avoid confusion (and fooling the consumers)? Now everyone is pulling a Nvidia! or they are trying to release a 5900M which is equal to 5800 and 6000M which is actually 5900?


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## W1zzard (Jan 7, 2010)

btarunr said:


> Orly? Where were these constraints with Mobility HD 4870? Like I said, RV770 has nearly the same thermals as Cypress, so that argument doesn't count.



thats exactly what i'm gonna ask amd later


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 7, 2010)

Fourstaff said:


> Why cant they name the current 5800M into 5700M instead to avoid confusion (and fooling the consumers)? Now everyone is pulling a Nvidia! or they are trying to release a 5900M which is equal to 5800 and 6000M which is actually 5900?



I think its the hype - when average consumers look on a Alienware website (or any other OEMs that makes gaming laptops) & they see one with a 5870mobility - they will jump hoops thinking its almost as powerful as the desktop 5870 but in which case its only half the card the real 5870 is....

pittyful really. but i agree - they give it the name of a top class performing card only to water it down by quite a bit.

lackluster. Im sure it will run games decent enough though but its not the ultimate performance one would think if he just just looking at it from a retailers website


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## cuphe (Jan 7, 2010)

so is the mobile 5870 only slightly better than the 4870M? Because it's a 5770 and 5770 is about the 4870 in performance.


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 7, 2010)

btarunr said:


> Orly? Where were these constraints with Mobility HD 4870? Like I said, RV770 has nearly the same thermals as Cypress, so that argument doesn't count.



Imagine trying to stuff a full blown 5870 into a Thin Laptop with the cooling apparatus/power/size constraints, and expect to be able to use it on the road, you won't be able to due to the amt of power it uses and the heat it produces. The battery life would be excessively short. The only way you would be able to use its potential is to have it plugged into a wall or have a nuclear power-pack strapped to your back.

Only way I can see a 5800 or even 5900 series part being stuffed into a Laptop with nothing other than clock speeds adjusted is the use of the next Process (32nm) or the parts being used in a Dell Inspiron XPS Gen 1 Chassis which had 3 fans and several heatpipe sinks.

I'm going to look at processors for an example, the Pentium 4M, it used more power than the P3 at the time, well Intel needed a mobility solution bad, so they looked at their buddies in the sandbox, which turned out the Core series- which provided better performance at lower power than the Pentium 4M ever did. Which then later on the Core became Core 2 due to the Core's success.

-end command-


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## ahmedz_1991 (Jan 7, 2010)

Guys !! Please !! we're talking about laptops ! And do you think even if the specs were the same as desktops, they we'll operate as each other????!!!!!!! :shadedshu OF course NOT! there are many specs that can never match desktops: bandwidths, data rates,...


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## saikamaldoss (Jan 7, 2010)

It would be nice if 880G comes with 5200 and allow all games Max settings @ 1024x768


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 7, 2010)

actually the Dell Inspiron XPS Gen 1 Matched the specs of a Desktop other than the Max Power it could use, 

Specs are as follows for my Laptop of the above, Remember this is 2002-2004 tech.

Dell XPS Gen 1 Laptop- 15.4" WUXGA (Widescreen Ultra eXtended Graphics Array) Native Res 1920x1200

Intel Pentium 4 EE 3.4 GHz SKT 478 (Northwood Extreme/Gallatin Core)
Intel 865PE Motherboard (Dell OEM)
2 GB PC 3200 DDR Dual Channel (OEM)
(M18) Radeon 9800 256 (R420 based)
60GB Hitachi Travelstar 60GB 7200RPM
150 Watt Wallwart.


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## 3volvedcombat (Jan 7, 2010)

Why are people fighting, Ive just read the first 20 post and I call BS, on all of it.

*First of all, All these cards are extemely wattage dependent, and neeed alot of cooling after that to be put in a mobility form.

*Second why are you guys getting mad about the HD 5870 >>>>>MOBILITY<<<<< It has a diffrent name so it can be any spec possible, because mobility is a big enough word that for all we care the card can have 400 stream processors.

*Third, and this is were people catched on, was that this is basicly a HD 5770 only using 50 watts in a laptop mobility GPU form, which frankly impresses me.

*Forth, all these dx11 GPU'z are going to be cheaper then Nvidia Mobiles(Probably), and the fastest Nvidia mobile GPU is basicly comparable to a GTS 250. Yet this HD 5870 Mobility, will be twice as fast as that GPU overclocked just a bit. {FYI Thats Amazing}.

*The only negative I have about this Mobility GPU's is the power they use in a laptop. Most of these Gamers/Laptop guru's PROBABLY game with the laptop connected to power most of the time. But a laptop is really ment to be portable, and not use so much power.

I think this is a good mobility gpu line, probably going to be cheap, and not use that much power. But you have to think that sense the rest of a laptop will essentually being BOTTLENECKING these gaming laptop mobility gpu'z then, whats the piont of buying such power other then E-peen and 2,000 bucks in your pocket


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## daehxxiD (Jan 7, 2010)

Well, Ati already did this some time ago with the Radeon 9700 Mobility (which in fact was a higher clocked 9600-Chip)

It's a shame but I bet it is going to perform anyways... Shame there is no more competition from Nvidia atm... Them continueing rebadging the slightly upgraded G80 Architecture (yeah, for me 9000-series and 3000-series for AMD are nothing but a package-update; the few updates they enjoyed don't really count) calling it GT300M now 

I'll be waiting with my new laptop for another year or so, maybe by the end of 2010 there'll be a mobility 5890 out, which basically is a full-fledged HD5870...

I'm pretty sure this was a marketing decision, they can sell a mid-range chip as high-end and high price like this; there is no viable competition either... 
As has already been pointed out: TDP between HD4800 and HD5800 series was equal, no reason as to why it shouldn't be possible to put a full-fledged 5870 into a laptop except for winning-margins of course.

Looking forward to the answer you get W1zzard.


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## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> Imagine trying to stuff a full blown 5870 into a Thin Laptop with the cooling apparatus/power/size constraints, and expect to be able to use it on the road, you won't be able to due to the amt of power it uses and the heat it produces. The battery life would be excessively short. The only way you would be able to use its potential is to have it plugged into a wall or have a nuclear power-pack strapped to your back.
> 
> Only way I can see a 5800 or even 5900 series part being stuffed into a Laptop with nothing other than clock speeds adjusted is the use of the next Process (32nm) or the parts being used in a Dell Inspiron XPS Gen 1 Chassis which had 3 fans and several heatpipe sinks.
> 
> ...



That is still a lame argument. Gaming laptops aren't "thin and petit". There are laptops out there which handle two HD 4870 GPUs. Surely they have the "apparatus" that can power and cool a single AMD Cypress, or even two for that matter.


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## Fourstaff (Jan 7, 2010)

3volvedcombat said:


> *Second why are you guys getting mad about the HD 5870 >>>>>MOBILITY<<<<< It has a diffrent name so it can be any spec possible, because mobility is a big enough word that for all we care the card can have 400 stream processors.



Are you frustrated from all the naming games Nvidia have played with you? If you are, then this is essentially the same. If you are not, then you are an nvidiot. (Pardon for all the swear words here, I dont feel particularly well).



3volvedcombat said:


> But you have to think that sense the rest of a laptop will essentually being BOTTLENECKING these gaming laptop mobility gpu'z then, whats the piont of buying such power other then E-peen and 2,000 bucks in your pocket



I think the Mobile i7's will not bottleneck these chips. I fly back home every year or so from here, and you can safely assume that I cant bring a full sized tower with me, hence the need for mobile gaming rig solutions for people like me.


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## KainXS (Jan 7, 2010)

the problem is that MXM can't handle a HD5870 with all 1600sp's and 32 rops, the TDP would be way too high even for a mobile variant and mxm cards have to be a max of 82mmx100mm


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## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

KainXS said:


> the problem is that MXM can't handle a HD5870 with all 1600sp's and 32 rops, the TDP would be way too high even for a mobile variant and mxm cards have to be a max of 82mmx100mm



Wrong. Cypress has nearly the same TDP as RV770, and RV770s could work on MXMs. They also have nearly the same pad size, the same memory IO pins, same PCI-Express lanes, and so on. It's just that AMD isn't able to dole out good enough quantities of Cypress even today. When they get to do so, don't be surprised if they release a "Mobility HD 5970" which is a single AMD Cypress MXM board.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jan 7, 2010)

W1zzard said:


> thats exactly what i'm gonna ask amd later



Thank you because this really doesn't make any sense. I mean if I were Nvidia I would attack the mobile market now with my balls out. WTF is ATI/AMD thinking!



btarunr said:


> Wrong. Cypress has nearly the same TDP as RV770, and RV770s could work on MXMs. They also have nearly the same pad size, the same memory IO pins, same PCI-Express lanes, and so on. It's just that AMD isn't able to dole out good enough quantities of Cypress even today. When they get to do so, don't be surprised if they release a "Mobility HD 5970" which is a single AMD Cypress MXM board.



Thats a good point. Could it be a quantity issue?


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## kylew (Jan 7, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> Imagine trying to stuff a full blown 5870 into a Thin Laptop with the cooling apparatus/power/size constraints, and expect to be able to use it on the road, you won't be able to due to the amt of power it uses and the heat it produces. The battery life would be excessively short. The only way you would be able to use its potential is to have it plugged into a wall or have a nuclear power-pack strapped to your back.
> 
> Only way I can see a 5800 or even 5900 series part being stuffed into a Laptop with nothing other than clock speeds adjusted is the use of the next Process (32nm) or the parts being used in a Dell Inspiron XPS Gen 1 Chassis which had 3 fans and several heatpipe sinks.
> 
> ...



You are so so wrong, if they can squeeze 2 mobile 4870s in to a laptop, they can fit a single Cyrpress GPU into one.

As people have already told you, Cypress uses the same power as a 4870, so your argument doesn't hold any validity.

I don't know why they've done this, they should have just called it a mobile 5770.


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## mdm-adph (Jan 7, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Thank you because this really doesn't make any sense. I mean if I were Nvidia I would attack the mobile market now with my balls out. WTF is ATI/AMD thinking!



With their balls out?  Why?  They've been doing this very same thing for years.    What would be their argument?

That being said, it's sad to see AMD resort to the same sad business practices that Nvidia practiced for years.  Guess that means they're back to being competitive again, though.  

When companies get complacent, this is the crap they start to do, and the consumer suffers.  There is _no_ reason why AMD couldn't have just called this thing a Mobile 5770.


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## HalfAHertz (Jan 7, 2010)

+1 I agree, asking for a full-blown 5870 may be a bit too much, considering that the Mobile HD4870 was using GDDR3 and was heaviliy underclocked, but still they should have named it a 5770...Still @AT they have some slides showing this card as 20-30% faster than the last generation...


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## Baum (Jan 7, 2010)

mxm is out of question as the defined a new standard called mxm 3.0 with some square cards that offer more speed and thermal capabilitys and yes maybe some will release as 2.1 eletric interface in mxm2 or mxm3 format but that's something time will tell.
as far as i am concerned thers only one mxm 2.1 HD4650 all other mxm HD4xxx gpus are not compilant with the old mxm 1 to 3 they are "shorter" and wider....


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## 3volvedcombat (Jan 7, 2010)

Fourstaff said:


> Are you frustrated from all the naming games Nvidia have played with you? If you are, then this is essentially the same. If you are not, then you are an nvidiot. (Pardon for all the swear words here, I dont feel particularly well).



Fourstaff, i was going for ATI on there product in the post and what the specs of it was and there naming scheme, I was saying that they had a PROPER naming scheme, and that is was proper for there line(between the lines). I really dont care about nvidia, im not a nvidiot, read a post a little more slowly if your sick today ok.


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## Fourstaff (Jan 7, 2010)

3volvedcombat said:


> Fourstaff, i was going for ATI on there product in the post and what the specs of it was and there naming scheme, I was saying that they had a PROPER naming scheme, and that is was proper for there line(between the lines). I really dont care about nvidia, im not a nvidiot, read a post a little more slowly if your sick today ok.



Point taken. But your use of large letters annoyed me just now.


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## erocker (Jan 7, 2010)

How can it be a rebrand if it's DX11? Wouldn't putting a full blown mobile version of a 5870 in a laptop just be too big and hot?


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## btarunr (Jan 7, 2010)

erocker said:


> How can it be a rebrand if it's DX11? Wouldn't putting a full blown mobile version of a 5870 in a laptop just be too big and hot?



Nobody is calling it a rebrand. The accusation is of using weaker physical GPUs to designate Mobility series models. No, it won't be any bigger or hotter than the last time when they put a full blown mobile version of a 4870 in a laptop.


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## HalfAHertz (Jan 7, 2010)

You have to consider tho that if they had named it X7XX and is in fact ~30% faster than the X8XX it could have raised some confusion as well


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## Fourstaff (Jan 7, 2010)

btarunr said:


> Nobody is calling it a rebrand. The accusation is of using weaker physical GPUs to designate Mobility series models. No, it won't be any bigger or hotter than the last time when they put a full blown mobile version of a 4870 in a laptop.



+1 

They could have just designated a lower number to their "mobility 5800" if they cant solve the heating and power issues rather than lowering its power.


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## Xaser04 (Jan 7, 2010)

Just backing up Btaruners point, here is a GPU-Z screenshot of my laptops Mobility HD4850. 







As you can see barring the clock speeds it is a fully fledged R770 part. 

I assume of course that ATI has a reason for not putting a fully fledged cypress GPU into laptops. 

My assumptions would be:

1) Yeilds are not good enough for a mobility part (they can make more money selling them as desktop parts)
2) Whilst the thermal TDP is around the same as the R770 I wonder if in the real world they have had trouble both cooling and powering this GPU in mobile form. 
3) What is the point in designing a fully fledged Cypress GPU for laptops when your main competition has nothing to compete (this links in with point one above)? 

I would imagine its a mixture of all of the above plus more. 

One thing does really bug me though, why on earth have we not seen more 'gaming' laptops running the ATI mobility cards. It seems that MSI and a couple of other vendors have gone for them but the majority are still using the GTX2XX mobility series instead (which is technically inferior). 

Just as a personal point - The HD4850M is very good indeed.


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 7, 2010)

look at the shear size of the board, its obvious there are more power phases required, and that heatsink dude, its bigger than the 4890s. I suspect that the Reply to Fermi Will be something that is refined, thus will have full fledged Mobility parts compared to what we are getting right now.


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## lism (Jan 7, 2010)

Mussels said:


> nvidia started rebranding a long time ago. Geforce 4MX line? yeah, geforce 2 rebadge.




The Geforce 4 MX was'nt a Geforce 2 MX/GTS but rather a stripped down Geforce 3 series. Hence the lack for SM2.0 if i'm correct. 

But as of this newsitem, you cant expect to have desktop specs into a laptop, developing a chip that would do the same as the HD5870 desktop and not put out alot of heat (TDP).. I'd rather not waste my notebooks battery in like an half an hour because of the extreme power-usage.

If AMD feels like this is the fastest chip for the mobile market, with nobody to offer something (nvidia) powerfuller, its good. Ya'll can play games.


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## Mussels (Jan 8, 2010)

lism said:


> The Geforce 4 MX was'nt a Geforce 2 MX/GTS but rather a stripped down Geforce 3 series. Hence the lack for SM2.0 if i'm correct.
> 
> But as of this newsitem, you cant expect to have desktop specs into a laptop, developing a chip that would do the same as the HD5870 desktop and not put out alot of heat (TDP).. I'd rather not waste my notebooks battery in like an half an hour because of the extreme power-usage.
> 
> If AMD feels like this is the fastest chip for the mobile market, with nobody to offer something (nvidia) powerfuller, its good. Ya'll can play games.



GF 4 Ti had shader 1.4
Geforce 3 had 1.3
GF 4 MX had 0.0
Geforce 2 had 0.0

Trust me, it was their first rebrand.

After looking at so many silly arguments defending this, a realistic thought occurs: size. maybe the 5870 was just too big?


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## ToTTenTranz (Jan 8, 2010)

So I went to check the website for specs and here are the full specs and respective desktop counterpart:

Mobility HD5870: Juniper XT (800sp, desktop HD57xx), GDDR5 @ 128bit, 50W
Mobility HD5850: Juniper XT, GDDR5/GDDR3/DDR3 @ 128bit, 30-39W
Mobility HD5830: Juniper XT, DDR3/GDDR3 @ 128bit, 25W

Mobility HD5770: Redwood (400sp, desktop HD56xx), GDDR5 @ 128bit, 30W
Mobility HD5750: Redwood, GDDR5 @ 128bit, 25W
Mobility HD5730: Redwood, GDDR3/DDR3 @ 128bit, 26W
Mobility HD5650: Redwood, GDDR3/DDR3 @ 128bit, 15-19W (lower clocked than HD5730)


Mobility HD5470: Cedar (80sp, desktop HD53xx), GDDR5/DDR3 @ 64bit, 13-15W
Mobility HD5450: Cedar, DDR3 @ 64bit, 11W
Mobility HD5430: Cedar, DDR3 @ 64bit, 7W (lower clocked)


Mobility HD5165: RV730 (320sp, desktop HD46xx), DDR3/GDDR3 @ 128bit
Mobility HD5145: RV710 (80sp, desktop HD43xx), DDR3/GDDR3 @ 64bit




- First off, the Mobility HD5850 is a total mess. It can come with either GDDR5 or DDR3, its clocks range from 500 to 625MHz. This means it can be exactly as fast as a Mobility HD5830 or just a tad slower than the HD5870. People will have to be very carefull with these.


- The HD5165 and HD5145 are renames from the previous generation, nVidia style (with the big difference that they're not trying to fool customers by calling them HD5650 and HD5350, respectively). 
The naming of the HD5165 is also a mess. This GPU will be a lot faster than the HD54xx although it's named as being a lot slower.

- Inclusion of GDDR5 in mobile GPUs still shows a considerable bump in power consumption. Besides, the memory's power consumption depends a lot on the bus width (the wider the bus, the more amount os memory chips is needed).




IMO, ATI went the nVidia way (calling different names between Mobility and Desktop) because it had no choice. 
nVidia keeps churning out different names for its mobile GPUs while AMD kept the same, honest naming scheme. Many retailers tried to take advantage of people's ignorance of this, so the renamed GPUs still got design wins.

I don't like this either, I used to congratulate ATI for being consistent with their name scheme, but I guess this ended up as being essential to grab more design wins.




As for not launching Cypress for laptops, I think it's the right way to go.
Let's face it, the RV770's adoption for laptops was horrible, and trying to sell Cypress with 8 chips of GDDR5 would go the same way.

The GPU consumed a bit more than the G92b, so it had to be downclocked to death, and 256bit (8 chips) of GDDR5 were never used in any laptop at all (all the Mobility HD4870 bundled GDDR3).
For this reason, the once-again-renamed-G92b GTX 280M and 260M chips got almost all design wins for gaming laptops.

That Asus W90 was a total joke. They paired a slow CPU (2GHz) with two "HD4870" with 512MB GDDR3. Why they decided to save on video memory on a top-end laptop is still a mistery to me, but of course that SLI'ed GTX280M would win in more recent tests because they are all bundled with 1GB each.







cuphe said:


> so is the mobile 5870 only slightly better than the 4870M? Because it's a 5770 and 5770 is about the 4870 in performance.


There was never a Mobile HD4870 with GDDR5, so this  Mobility HD5870 will be a lot faster (something like the difference between desktop HD4850 and HD5770).






lism said:


> The Geforce 4 MX wasn't a Geforce 2 MX/GTS but rather a stripped down Geforce 3 series. Hence the lack for SM2.0 if i'm correct.



The Geforce 4 MX had no programmable shaders, so it was technologically inferior to the GF3 and it was more like a redesigned GF2. SM2.0 was a DX9 feature than only appeared in the Geforce (5) FX generation. Geforce 3 was a DX8 GPU and Geforce 4 MX was a DX7 GPU.


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## KainXS (Jan 8, 2010)

btarunr said:


> Wrong. Cypress has nearly the same TDP as RV770, and RV770s could work on MXMs. They also have nearly the same pad size, the same memory IO pins, same PCI-Express lanes, and so on. It's just that AMD isn't able to dole out good enough quantities of Cypress even today. When they get to do so, don't be surprised if they release a "Mobility HD 5970" which is a single AMD Cypress MXM board.



TDP of the HD4870 is 150W, the TDP of the HD5870 is 188, . . . . . thats almost the same?


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## btarunr (Jan 8, 2010)

KainXS said:


> TDP of the HD4870 is 150W, the TDP of the HD5870 is 188, . . . . . thats almost the same?



Base it on this:







Both reference boards, both with digital PWM circuitry.

More charts here.


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## btarunr (Jan 8, 2010)

Xaser04 said:


> 1) Yeilds are not good enough for a mobility part (they can make more money selling them as desktop parts)



Exactly, that's the way I see it. Since AMD isn't able maintain a decent yield of Cypress to sustain three desktop (HD 5850, HD 5870, HD 5970) and three mobile (M HD 5830, M HD 5850, M HD 5870) products, it fears of losing "design wins". Unlike with the DIY-driven desktop market, for notebooks, once a manufacturer selects your GPU for his upcoming design (you score a design win), you have to assure him with your quantities, output, and a backlog. Only then will you two ink a deal. Apparently Juniper is being made in good enough quantities that it has countless reference and non-reference desktop board designs already, while non-reference Cypress-based products are just trickling out, despite Cypress having a couple of months' headstart.


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## lism (Jan 8, 2010)

Mussels said:


> GF 4 Ti had shader 1.4
> Geforce 3 had 1.3
> GF 4 MX had 0.0
> Geforce 2 had 0.0
> ...



Please, get your information straight:



> The later NV17 revision of the NV10 design, used for the GeForce 4 MX, was more efficient; although the GeForce 4 MX 460 was a 2x2 pipeline design, it could outperform the GeForce 2 Ultra.



source

and



> If the capabilities of the GeForce4 generation are defined by the GeForce4 Ti, then the GeForce4 MX (NV17) is a GeForce4 in name only. Many criticized the GeForce MX name as a misleading marketing ploy since it was less advanced than the preceding GeForce 3. In the features comparison chart between the Ti and MX lines, it showed that the only "feature" that was missing on the MX was the nfiniteFX II engine—the DirectX 8 programmable vertex and pixel shaders.[12] In reality, however, the GeForce4 MX was not a GeForce4 Ti with the shader hardware removed, as the MX's performance in games that did not use shaders was considerably behind the GeForce 4 Ti and GeForce 3. Disappointed enthusiasts described the GeForce4 MX as "GeForce 2 on steroids".



Source

Basicly its just a stripped Geforce 3, with misleading name , called Geforce 4, its not a Geforce 2. Both where budgetlines anyway, offering low/mid-end performance for gaming back in the days.


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## Mussels (Jan 8, 2010)

your own quote says "the GeForce4 MX was not a GeForce4 Ti with the shader hardware removed... described the GeForce4 MX as "GeForce 2 on steroids" 

it had nothing to do with the geforce 3, and was based on the GF2 core.


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## Hayder_Master (Jan 10, 2010)

ATI release mobility 5xxx and nvidia still talk "we goona release GT300 soon"


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## DonInKansas (Jan 10, 2010)

SO what if t's a 5770 equivalent?  If you need any more than tht for gaming, buy a damn desktop.


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## Mussels (Jan 10, 2010)

DonInKansas said:


> SO what if t's a 5770 equivalent?  If you need any more than tht for gaming, buy a damn desktop.



point is, 5770 is sweet for a laptop. we're all for that. what we're not for, is it being named something else to mislead people into thinking its twice as powerful as it really is.


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