# Slow and intermittent internet signal, both direct and wifi -what's the problem here?



## Black Panther (Apr 13, 2011)

Please bear with my n00bness regarding networking. 

Relatives of mine live above their workplace. They have got 2 phone lines, let's call them line A and line B.

Downstairs, at the workplace, they have a modem and a router and they use line B for the phone, and line A for the internet.

At home, on the floor above, they use line A both for Internet and for phone. They also have another router and modem there upstairs, because the router down below isn't powerful enough to cater for both floors.

Now here are the issues:

1) If the "upstairs" router and modem are switched on, they cut off the "downstairs" internet signal. I was thinking it's because you can't have more than one modem on the same phone line (A) but I want to confirm this. 

2) It's _always_ the downstairs internet access which quits. If the downstairs is connected there's no way it can "win" over the upstairs signal. Why?

3) When phoneline A is used for a normal land-line phone call, the downstairs internet signal also quits, even if neither upstairs router or modem are switched on. Why?

4) Downstairs the internet connection is 'nearly' what they're paying for, checked it with Speedtest. Whereas upstairs they are getting slightly less than half the speed they're paying for. They can't even view online streaming or a youtube video without endless buffering making it not worth even trying. This happens whether the router and modem downstairs are switched on or off.


So, any clues where I might start here?


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## cadaveca (Apr 13, 2011)

OK, so yes, only one modem per DSL line.

Secondly, it seems that somehow the splitting of the phone connection is dropping the signal power.

In order to eliminate the issue, I suggest trying DSL filters if they are not already in place. Otherwise, it's gonna take a tech with the proper tools to test the connection from start to finish, to find the real problem.


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## Black Panther (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks Cadaveca, that was the first thing I told them - I had never had heard of having 2 modems on the same DSL line myself but I wanted to make sure.

About the splitting of the line connection, why do they have this problem then?
I have only one phone line at home and use DSL myself. Using speedtest I get my full paid-for speed whether using my desktop plugged into pc-router-modem-phone plug or whether I'm using wifi from laptop anywhere in or near the house.

I use a simple filter which separates the modem's line from the phone line at the first wall socket. The guys in question got a better 'multiple' filter.


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## cadaveca (Apr 13, 2011)

To me, sounds like upstairs router is closer to actual line from the pole. DSLl will only go to cloest connection, which would, in that situation, be the upstairs...turn on upstairs, it has shortest path, it kicks the lower one off, evne though lower may already be authenticated.

Seem that there is also a problem with either a shared ground, or the line for the upstairs is split off near router to go downstairs. With the shared ground, upstairs doesn't have the best path...wiring problems....there's something throwing a curveball here, and while I can suggest ideas, they may be nowhere near the actual issue, and that's why i suggested getting an actual tech if there are already filters in place. The wiring in the house/whatever there really needs to be properly inspected.


Custom installations like this should always be done by a trained professional. Wiring for internet is the only pc-related thing that I'll point people to the business's techs...they have access to tools and such that no person ouside of the ISP will have, that are required to properly deal with issues like this. Using two differnt routers for one location just isn't right, at all...if need be, a proper router and wiring would be the right way to do it, or maybe even two routers, with one set as an extender to the first...but never EVER ever two modems.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Apr 13, 2011)

def too much stuff plugged in

no seriously probably that because the phone lines have limited power going throuth them all phones have what i think is called a rem or bell value, which is normally one sometimes more or less and your only supposed to plug three phones in or the signal to them will degrade to the point of disconnect.

and im sure thats despite  the poss existance of externall power to any of the phones

im no telecoms eng mere mastter of nowt but thats the gist of what i know


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## Black Panther (Apr 13, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> OK, so yes, only one modem per DSL line.
> 
> Secondly, it seems that somehow the splitting of the phone connection is dropping the signal power.





cadaveca said:


> The wiring in the house/whatever there really needs to be properly inspected.
> 
> 
> Custom installations like this should always be done by a trained professional. Wiring for internet is the only pc-related thing that I'll point people to the business's techs...they have access to tools and such that no person ouside of the ISP will have, that are required to properly deal with issues like this.



Playing devil's advocate here, I'm also splitting my phone connection but my connection stability and speed is perfect.

[EDIT] I have only 2 phones on my DSL line though. 

My relatives have 3 phones on their DSL, and another 3 on the other line...

_______________

Also, the wiring being used both in my case and that of my relatives (both DSL) are the existing phone lines. There was nothing done anew when internet connections came into being. Would you still think an inspection is due in such case?



theoneandonlymrk said:


> the phone lines have limited power going through them all phones have what i think is called a rem or bell value, which is normally one sometimes more or less and your only supposed to plug three phones in or the signal to them will degrade to the point of disconnect.



Interesting. I'll be looking through that.

Their "Line B" (i.e. the 'work phone' see my first post above) has got 3 phones into it. And the "Line A" i.e. the 'home phone' at their home has got another 3....


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Apr 13, 2011)

i believe something can be added to the phone line to remmedy this but not tele tec, surely someone on here is and can confirm my admittedly strange tale which i assure you is true try plugging 4 or more phones in 1 line they all stop working.


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## Black Panther (Apr 13, 2011)

If I can solve this out by telling them to unplug extra phones from the sockets... it'll already be a great step forward for them


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Apr 13, 2011)

sure itll work mate i am electronics eng and know this to be true but not telecoms so dont know it as they would and obv have trouble with the terms and names lol


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## oily_17 (Apr 13, 2011)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> i believe something can be added to the phone line to remmedy this but not tele tec, surely someone on here is and can confirm my admittedly strange tale which i assure you is true try plugging 4 or more phones in 1 line they all stop working.



It's called a REN number, but I think it only affects the line if you get an incoming call and all phones are ringing at the same time.

http://www.britishtelephones.com/ren.htm


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## MilkyWay (Apr 13, 2011)

Pretty sure you can have as many phones as you like on the same line you just get the same incoming signal, so when someone calls every phone rings and gets the call. What usually happens is that old phones got current from the telephone socket but newer phones are powered by a plug.

I don't think you can have 2 routers on one phone line they interfere with each other right? Authentication and ip address or something like that right?


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## Black Panther (Apr 13, 2011)

MilkyWay said:


> old phones got current from the telephone socket but newer phones are powered by a plug.



The phones in this case are plugged only into the telephone socket and they take all the power from there.


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## MilkyWay (Apr 13, 2011)

Black Panther said:


> The phones in this case are plugged only into the telephone socket and they take all the power from there.



Your limited by how many phones you can use then, usually up to 3 or 4 (the maximum on a BT line). Then it starts to cause problems like said disconnection and even no signal at all.

"In telecommunication, a ringer equivalence number (REN) is a somewhat arbitrary number which denotes the electrical load a telephone ringer has on the line."


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## Black Panther (Apr 13, 2011)

What's a tad strange is that even if modem & router are switched* off* from their upstairs "Line A" and internet is functioning at the storey below on the other modem & router (on same "Line A"), as soon as they either make or receive a call from a phone on "Line A" above at the home the internet at the storey below shuts off.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Apr 13, 2011)

week connection somewhere could possibly be lowering the ren(yeh new word for me) woo capability of your line ?


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## Namslas90 (Apr 13, 2011)

Black Panther said:


> What's a tad strange is that even if modem & router are switched* off* from their upstairs "Line A" and internet is functioning at the storey below on the other modem & router (on same "Line A"), as soon as they either make or receive a call from a phone on "Line A" above at the home the internet at the storey below shuts off.



Wiring issues, probably crossed tip wires between lines.  Could also be a poor or non-existent grounding issue. Telephone connections are simple to the trained eye, most think they get it right, but its easy to make simple errors.  Yes not only should you have only one modem per line but the switching back and forth between modems causes "authorization of use" issues with the ISP control server.  The house address verification may allow a connection at slower access because of the mismatched modem ID to that street address.  Best solution would be to have the phone wires upgraded to cat5 and properly routed throughout the residence for proper service.


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## oily_17 (Apr 14, 2011)

I would try running a network cable  from downstairs to the house above.Then just use a simple switch if you need to run more than one PC.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Apr 14, 2011)

maybe a network hub instead of the two routers


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