# The State of Cryptocurrency



## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

everyone talks about bitcoin but look whats happening to the rest of the altcoins.. i am hoping that when BTC hits 8000 it will bottom out.. but that is yet to see.. 







trog


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## dorsetknob (Feb 2, 2018)

Was in my local Town this morning and spotted a Street Begger with Sign saying
" will Accept Bitcoin"


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## Vya Domus (Feb 2, 2018)

Healthy fluctuation , some would say.


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## dorsetknob (Feb 2, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Healthy fluctuation , some would say.



10 to 15% would be a healthy fluctuation   looks more like its hitting 40 to almost 50%
If the Dollar fell that much in just over 14 days >>>>>>>>>>>>>...


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## silkstone (Feb 2, 2018)

The last little rise was a typical bull trap. The market will continue to decline for a while before reaching it's new level and maintain that for a while before the next big pump.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 2, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> If the Dollar fell that much in just over 14 days >>>>>>>>>>>>>...



Nah man , didn't you hear, crypto is definitely the future. Who needs stability.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

silkstone said:


> The last little rise was a typical bull trap. The market will continue to decline for a while before reaching it's new level and maintain that for a while before the next big pump.


I'm not convinced there will be another "big pump."  Too many investors got burned which should make it clear that crypto is a poor investment.  I think once the investors finish selling off, it'll go back to like it was in 2016 where only miners are involved based on electrical cost.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm not convinced there will be another "big pump."  Too many investors got burned which should make it clear that crypto is a poor investment.  I think once the investors finish selling off, it'll go back to like it was in 2016 where only miners are involved based on electrical cost.



Or it may very well continue to jump as it does now because that is what makes a lot of these 'investors' rich - playing the market with big numbers has been a thing for a while now. The news surrounding crypto really is just part of the story IMO. Realistically the only purpose for the current crypto coins today is their function as a vehicle to make a quick buck on. Everyone else with the smallest bit of intelligence has jumped ship or never got on in the 1st place.


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## mad1394 (Feb 2, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Or it may very well continue to jump as it does now because that is what makes a lot of these 'investors' rich - playing the market with big numbers has been a thing for a while now. The news surrounding crypto really is just part of the story IMO. Realistically the only purpose for the current crypto coins today is their function as a vehicle to make a quick buck on. Everyone else with the smallest bit of intelligence has jumped ship or never got on in the 1st place.



You know...somehow I don't consider myself very intelligent for not buying a few bitcoins when I first heard about it 

Also @trog100 : video card u gieb?


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## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

looking at the yearly charts BTC is now back where it was in mid november  of last year.. thats the point the price increases went insane and shot up to near 20000 by mid december..

the other interesting thing is where is all the billions coming out of crypto going.. the dollar is down.. stocks are down.. in fact everything is down..

none of it makes much sense.. he he

trog

ps.. i will continue to hodle.. crypto was never a quick buck to me.. i dont own any bitcoin just some eth litecoin cardano and neo.. i am still in profit just not as much as i was..


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## newtekie1 (Feb 2, 2018)

Good, maybe all the miners will stop buying up all the graphics cards and pushing prices up.

Heck, hopefully some of them start selling off their cards cheap and I can pick up a good deal on a card!


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## Vya Domus (Feb 2, 2018)

trog100 said:


> crypto was never a quick buck to me..



Seems to me like that's at the heart of all of this , with the emphasis being put on "quick". I don't see how anyone can currently devise some sort of  long terms strategy.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Or it may very well continue to jump as it does now because that is what makes a lot of these 'investors' rich - playing the market with big numbers has been a thing for a while now. The news surrounding crypto really is just part of the story IMO. Realistically the only purpose for the current crypto coins today is their function as a vehicle to make a quick buck on. Everyone else with the smallest bit of intelligence has jumped ship or never got on in the 1st place.


The market is too small and easy to manipulate.



trog100 said:


> the other interesting thing is where is all the billions coming out of crypto going.. the dollar is down.. stocks are down.. in fact everything is down..


The economy is finally coming out of the recession that started in 2008.  Everything's down because USD is going to start getting more expensive as interest rates start ticking up again.  This is bad for investments that aren't government-issued (stocks, commodities, etc.)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ses-after-strong-jobs-data-idUSKBN1FM1KC?il=0


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## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Seems to me like that's at the heart of all of this , with the emphasis being put on "quick". I don't see how anyone can currently devise some sort of  long terms strategy.



my long term strategy is based on what i saw going on during 2017.. hold and watch prices go up.. things have changed a bit during 2018.. hold and watch prices go down.. he he

i am rather hoping the hold and watch prices go down is just a temporary phase.. he he he..

trog



FordGT90Concept said:


> The market is too small and easy to manipulate.



it is but as a hodler that dosnt bother me too much.. i just hodle through it all.. 

trog


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## silkstone (Feb 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm not convinced there will be another "big pump."  Too many investors got burned which should make it clear that crypto is a poor investment.  I think once the investors finish selling off, it'll go back to like it was in 2016 where only miners are involved based on electrical cost.



I think you have too much faith in humanity. Greed will take over again at some point and take prices up. That's the bleak outlook anyway.
You never know though, it could all turn positive, a few coins gain more mainstream adoption as the number of real-world uses increase. The coins gain in value while the others die.


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## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

i dont think crypto has to be pumped up.. the natural trend is up...

what seem to be happening is a few big players commonly called whales.. pick their moments and trigger a panic sell off amongst  the small fry who are all too easy to panic..

prices drop and the whales scoop up the small fry and buy the dip.. rinse and repeat..

ether way now the whales seem to have chosen a new bottom of 8000 for bitcoin it will all start to go up again..

each time the whales do this there are less an less panicky small fry to gobble up.. in theory this should stabilize price fluctuations.. 

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

There's nothing "natural" about cryptocurrency.  It's literally 99% speculation.  Someone could buy a billion worth (110,000 BTC) in crypto to start another bubble.  Other people will think it's on the rebound and start buying raising the price until that billionaire is satisfied and they sell out again.  Everyone that thought they were going to win gets burned, again.  It can happen ad infinitum.  The market is too small and is easily manipulated.  I don't think that will ever change.  Only miners can make a long term profit.


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## Sasqui (Feb 2, 2018)

newtekie1 said:


> Good, maybe all the miners will stop buying up all the graphics cards and pushing prices up.
> 
> Heck, hopefully some of them start selling off their cards cheap and I can pick up a good deal on a card!



I was going to wait as well but ended up flipping at least 8 graphics cards on eBay after patiently waiting for stock to show up on Newegg.  Yes, there was a time, just theis past Dec when they were selling for 40-50% premium on eBay, even over the jacked retail on Newegg.  That's no longer the case.  Retail prices are now higher than eBay ones.  I still have a pretty big balance from buying ans selling cards, GTX and Vega when it was profitable,  Yea, I'm part of the problem, lol

In any case, the market has been flooded before with cards... and retail went down too when Bitcoin dropped about 2014/2015


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## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> There's nothing "natural" about cryptocurrency.  It's literally 100% speculation.  Someone could buy a billion worth (110,000 BTC) in crypto to start another bubble.  Other people will think it's on the rebound and start buying raising the price until that billionaire is satisfied and they sell out again.  Everyone that thought they were going to win gets burned, again.  It can happen ad infinitum.  The market is too small and is easily manipulated.  I don't think that will ever change.  Only miners can make a long term profit.



it took five years or so for bitcoin to get where its at.. which does kind suggest your thinking is wrong.. but i aint gonna convince you and you aint gonna convince me.. best we leave it at that.. 

we both agree that manipulation is going on.. its just the who and why we differ on..

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

Where it was in 2016 is where it should be.  2017 was speculation driven.  Reasons for speculation I can quickly name:
1) a few very wealthy investors making big buys creating a false confidence in the market
2) exchanges inflating the value of it by claiming its worth more than it really is
3) fear of missing out
4) actors in China shuffling BTC around to make it look like the market is more liquid than it really is

The manipulation is everywhere and they're all in it for themselves.  At the end of the day, it comes down to electricity which is what it was in 2016.  Whenever it goes higher than that, it's a bubble.


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## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

i think greed and fear of missing out has driven it up all on its own.. the big players make big sells at the right point down it goes to a controlled and predetermined level in this case 8000 which i rightly guessed at.. then the big players make their big buys to halt the panic sell off and up it all goes gain..

take note the whole lot has re-gained %60 of its losses in the past couple of hours.. i also think the big fat controllers needs to let everything go up a fair bit else they really will destroy confidence in the market  something i dont think they want to do..

we differ in one way only.. you think its one huge ponzy style scam.. whereas i think crypto really is the future and we have to get with it like it or not..

also at what point investment becomes speculation i aint exactly sure.. 

trog


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## Space Lynx (Feb 2, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i think greed and fear of missing out has driven it up all on its own.. the big players make big sells at the right point down it goes to a controlled and predetermined level in this case 8000 which i rightly guessed at.. then the big players make their big buys to halt the panic sell off and up it all goes gain..
> 
> take note the whole lot has re-gained %60 of its losses in the past couple of hours.. i also think the big fat controllers needs to let everything go up a fair bit else they really will destroy confidence in the market  something i dont think they want to do..
> 
> ...



The fact the currencies are even controlled by central "big" actors is exactly what crypto was meant to defeat... lol. I'm staying far away. My money is safe and sound in a bank, no risk. I'll keep it there thanks. lol


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

trog100 said:


> also at what point investment becomes speculation i aint exactly sure..


Speculation bubbles form in response to investment.  That is to say, investors are buying at a price that makes no sense in anticipation others will do the same.


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## Noyand (Feb 2, 2018)

https://www.chaingers.io/en/index.html
well of course when money gain isn't involved people don't feel like getting into it. They are asking gamers to help, but gamers aren't the one with the most leverage on this. goal n°1 should have been reached in a matter of seconds. (getting 100 miners).


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## the54thvoid (Feb 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Speculation bubbles form in response to investment.  That is to say, investors are buying at a price that makes no sense in anticipation others will do the same.



This is the absolute binary truth.  Investment is the act of inputting your cash (in normal terms) into a product you feel, based on promise of anticipated performance, will increase its worth.  So, I invest money into, lets' say Nvidia because their work in AI is looking pretty solid (I was going to buy shares when they were at $95, they doubled in a year).  The more people invest, the higher the share price goes (scales of demand in the investment world).  Speculating is hand in hand with investment whereby you speculate on a products worth or where its value will end up.

People consistently confuse cryptocurrency as a real mathematical solution and a value based commodity.  It is the former, not the latter.  The fact that people mined it at the beginning is very cool.  Then however, bigger, richer people started buying larger mining rigs.  Then the price of each coin increased as the pool slowly diminished.  Then before you know it, wankingly rich turd burglars of companies and investors starting creating monstrous mining farms, thus increasing the BTC rarity and increasing the value.  This is accompanied by sudden investment from people sniffing a ballooning value.

It is the investors buying into BTC, not the miners that have destroyed our graphics card market and destabilised the product.  As the value of crypto has increased, more 'coins' appear and more people create ideas to sell (go google 'prodeum').  This lazy ass get rich mentality is what deserves our anger - not the mining, per se.  All that being said, the power usage is unnacceptably high for working model so crypto needs more efficiency and it is those coins that will become more 'valuable', I think.

@R-T-B, you must be getting tired of all this


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## R-T-B (Feb 2, 2018)

the54thvoid said:


> This is the absolute binary truth.  Investment is the act of inputting your cash (in normal terms) into a product you feel, based on promise of anticipated performance, will increase its worth.  So, I invest money into, lets' say Nvidia because their work in AI is looking pretty solid (I was going to buy shares when they were at $95, they doubled in a year).  The more people invest, the higher the share price goes (scales of demand in the investment world).  Speculating is hand in hand with investment whereby you speculate on a products worth or where its value will end up.
> 
> People consistently confuse cryptocurrency as a real mathematical solution and a value based commodity.  It is the former, not the latter.  The fact that people mined it at the beginning is very cool.  Then however, bigger, richer people started buying larger mining rigs.  Then the price of each coin increased as the pool slowly diminished.  Then before you know it, wankingly rich turd burglars of companies and investors starting creating monstrous mining farms, thus increasing the BTC rarity and increasing the value.  This is accompanied by sudden investment from people sniffing a ballooning value.
> 
> ...



Yeah.  Mainly repeatedly parroted misconceptions.  I feel like fords "freefall!  Investors burned, never again!" comments came straight from a year or two (or three, or four) ago.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 2, 2018)

If I go back to the way crypto (Bitcoin) started, it was all about this idealistic approach of 'a currency quick and easy to trade with no influence from the big bad elite'. Its the same sentiment that got Trump in power, its a utopian way of thinking that has no bearing on reality. I understand where its coming from, at the same time, its a sentiment you see everywhere not just in currency, and its just that: a sentiment. Or put in different wording: a knee-jerk reaction to the state of the world, one that is heavily abused by those who really understand how things work. Those vulnerable would then be called naive (which is what I was alluding to when I said 'not so intelligent' earlier - people who bought in early, bought in on the premise of the above idea).

That sentiment has mutated into the behemoth it is today, and at the very basis of it lies the idea of mining a currency. Its a carbon copy of the gold rush, except gold actually does represent a value (back in the day, it had different purpose - but it hád purpose) and today gold is a valuable resource not just for jewelry but for the very machines we mine on, among a load of other products.

Crypto however, is mined like gold, but its value lies simply in the technology behind it. The technology is NOT crypto currency though, we already have digital currency realistically, the technology is the blockchain, which enables a thing like crypto to exist. And thát is the crucial difference here that people who invested in crypto failed to see. They banked on the current crypto coins becoming part of a new world order while in fact recent history proved time and time again that a non-regulated currency will never be useful as such.

Does that make our current monetary system perfect? Of course not, but like democracy, it is arguably the best system we can think of, with its drawbacks, and therefore requires safeguards, checks and balances, which are also present and are often under pressure because they prevent that 'quick buck' that crypto today is so fond of. All I can see in conclusion to this is a massive, utterly ridiculous irony: we want to be free of regulated currencies, but at the same time, the lack of regulation brings out the worst in people and damages us all.


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## trog100 (Feb 2, 2018)

soon it will become very apparent that those checks and balances you talk about are honored more in the breach than the actuality..

corruption and fraud rules the day.. only "the less intelligent" believe otherwise.. 

as for democracy its not been around that long and i am sure it will turn out to be another fraud.. politicians are bought and paid for.. enter the "big fat controler" again.. there always seems to be one..

why the f-ck am i quoting from Thomas the Tank Engine.. he he

trog


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## OneMoar (Feb 2, 2018)

O yay mining crashed hello abundance of gpus

O wait they are still 2x there MSRP


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## yotano211 (Feb 2, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> O yay mining crashed hello abundance of gpus
> 
> O wait they are still 2x there MSRP


Give it some time, people are just finding out that prices are crashing and will soon put their cards on ebay for sale. I noticed there  are about 10% more listings for 1070s than from last week.


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## OneMoar (Feb 2, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> Give it some time, people are just finding out that prices are crashing and will soon put their cards on ebay for sale. I noticed there  are about 10% more listings for 1070s than from last week.


hahahahhaha NO


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Yeah.  Mainly repeatedly parroted misconceptions.  I feel like fords "freefall!  Investors burned, never again!" comments came straight from a year or two (or three, or four) ago.


Actually no, that was the first time I've said it.  Cryptocurrency has been outed for being smoke and mirrors and whatever confidence it had is lost for good.  The cryptocurrency bubble has burst.  The only question now is "where is the floor?"






Dot-com bubble


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## yotano211 (Feb 2, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> hahahahhaha NO


No what, no to mining cards or that stock might go back to normal very soon.


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## OneMoar (Feb 2, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> No what, no to mining cards or that stock might go back to normal very soon.


and it may rain pizza tomarrow ...


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## Papahyooie (Feb 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Actually no, that was the first time I've said it.  Cryptocurrency has been outed for being smoke and mirrors and whatever confidence it had is lost for good.  The cryptocurrency bubble has burst.  The only question now is "where is the floor?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While I will readily admit that you may be right, I find it hilarious that you think you have some sort of divine truth. You're not the first to say crypto is dead. You won't be the last. 

People also said Bitcoin had lost all confidence right about...





So how about instead of pretending that you hold the keys to righteous truth, you let those who want to play the game do it. Seems to me, someone wants to make themselves feel better for having missed out on striking it rich early, and is taking it out by ridiculing others for buying in.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

"People" were not me.  Have a source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...d-broad-cryptocurrency-sell-off-idUSKBN1FM11M


> The currencies have come off their lows but analysts said the sell-off was probably not over.


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## Papahyooie (Feb 2, 2018)

Sources matter not. I'm talking specifically about your seemingly 100% confidence that you are correct, and the fact that you present your analysis as irrefutable fact.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 2, 2018)

Time will tell.  I don't care either way because I have no dog in this race.


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## R-T-B (Feb 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Actually no, that was the first time I've said it.



Not reffering to you neccesarily, just saying it has been said time and again.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 3, 2018)

For the record, it has lost more than 60% from the December peak and the forecast is it will shed more.


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## R-T-B (Feb 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> For the record, it has lost more than 60% from the December peak and the forecast is it will shed more.



And where was it in say, October?

I remain very unconcerned.


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 3, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Was in my local Town this morning and spotted a Street Begger with Sign saying
> " will Accept Bitcoin"



That's bad


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## R-T-B (Feb 3, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> That's bad



Meh, he's just capitalizing on the news for attention.


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 3, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Meh, he's just capitalizing on the news for attention.



He does it for comedy.


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## R-T-B (Feb 3, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> He does it for comedy.



Didn't used to be so comedic.

Homeless used to frequently use bitcoin to buy meals, back when it was lower, because they could watch ads on cellphones and get paid in small bitcoin amounts.

No, I am not kidding.  This was big circa 2013-2014 or so.

https://www.wired.com/2013/09/bitcoin-homeless/


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 3, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Didn't used to be so comedic.
> 
> Homeless used to frequently use bitcoin to buy meals, back when it was lower, because they could watch ads on cellphones and get paid in small bitcoin amounts.
> 
> No, I am not kidding.  This was big circa 2014 or so.



Yeah I never jumped on the coin mining bandwagon myself.


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## R-T-B (Feb 3, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Yeah I never jumped on the coin mining bandwagon myself.



Don't worry about it.  It honestly isn't any better than a minimum wage job if you tally hours, unless you go really big anyways.

Bitcoin dipping I actually see as a good thing, honestly.  Maybe not for me in particular, but for the sanity of the ecosystem as a whole.


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## Toothless (Feb 3, 2018)

I personally want bitcoin to drop and die so people can stop making threads about it.


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 3, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Don't worry about it.  It honestly isn't any better than a minimum wage job if you tally hours, unless you go really big anyways.
> 
> Bitcoin dipping I actually see as a good thing, honestly.  Maybe not for me in particular, but for the sanity of the ecosystem as a whole.



Not worth my time or effort either. I make almost twice the minimum wage amount here anyway, but It goes to bills either way. Also I have no room to setup a rig dedicated 24/7 for coin mining let alone cost of power to run AC to keep it cool and run the rig itself.


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## trog100 (Feb 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Actually no, that was the first time I've said it.  Cryptocurrency has been outed for being smoke and mirrors and whatever confidence it had is lost for good.  The cryptocurrency bubble has burst.  The only question now is "where is the floor?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i think we have just found the floor about 8000.. its up and away from here on in.. he he..


trog



Toothless said:


> I personally want bitcoin to drop and die so people can stop making threads about it.



if you dont like them dont read them.. sadly there aint much else of interest going on at the moment.. 

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 3, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i think we have just found the floor about 8000.. its up and away from here on in.. he he..


It's stuck at 9000.  Everytime it goes over, there's another sell off:
https://www.coindesk.com/price/

I could reasonably see it hitting $10k followed by a big sell off resulting in prices falling to $7K or lower.  Probably going to see this trend of small climbs followed by big sell offs for a while (months).


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## LPide (Feb 3, 2018)

even at 8000, its still 8x what it was Jan 2017...its just part of the correction. It will bounce back


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## trog100 (Feb 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's stuck at 9000.  Everytime it goes over, there's another sell off:
> https://www.coindesk.com/price/
> 
> I could reasonably see it hitting $10k followed by a big sell off resulting in prices falling to $7K or lower.  Probably going to see this trend of small climbs followed by big sell offs for a while (months).



this is the one i watch..  https://coinranking.com/

it targets nice round numbers.. as you say its now going sideways around 9K.. i think it will soon target 10K but its impossible to know for sure.. it could go the other way and head for 7k.. a new lower bottom.. 

trog


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## Space Lynx (Feb 3, 2018)

The problem is the ones selling off are being bought up by the big boys... there is going to be another 1% controlling this currency just like in USD markets. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the top 5 miner companies already hold 95% market share, and they are the ones buying the droves of people selling to create a false image to re-invest, so they can keep their buy low sell high game going, instead of the stock market with companies and some checks and balances, the masses are getting played hard in the Crypto world. The exchanges will never get shut down fully, so the top coin holders are just milking everyone and watching their fiat banks skyrocket. 

Just a theory of mine, meh. I don't really care if I am right or wrong, I worked hard for the little 20k in savings I have now, and I don't intend to lose a penny of it. So my money will be staying in the bank. For those of you getting rich, more power to you.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 3, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> The problem is the ones selling off are being bought up by the big boys... there is going to be another 1% controlling this currency just like in USD markets. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the top 5 miner companies already hold 95% market share



I am always fascinated seeing people hold onto speculation and faith that one day the little effort that they've put into something will make them rich beyond belief. I guess it is human nature to believe in this sort of stuff even when literally everything else suggests you have no chance at it.


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## trog100 (Feb 3, 2018)

its in the nature of humans  to believe what they want to believe.. mostly whatever makes them happy..  i am old and a died in the wool cynic.. yet i am currently playing the crypto game.. 

faith my arse.. he he

trog


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## dorsetknob (Feb 5, 2018)

Lloyds Banking Group has banned its customers from buying Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies on their credit cards.

The ban, starting on Monday, applies to Lloyds Bank, Bank of Scotland, Halifax and MBNA customers.

It will not apply to debit cards, only to the banking group's eight million credit card customers.

The move follows a sharp fall in the value of digital currencies, prompting fears about people running up debts.

Lloyds is concerned it could end up footing the bill for unpaid debts should the price continue to fall.


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Lloyds Banking Group has banned its customers from buying Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies on their credit cards.
> 
> The ban, starting on Monday, applies to Lloyds Bank, Bank of Scotland, Halifax and MBNA customers.
> 
> ...



Buying crypto on credit, while foolish, shouldn't be any different than any other foolish cash transaction they allow.

This is part of the reason I like crypto:  I hate the banks telling me what I can and can't buy.


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## dorsetknob (Feb 5, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Buying crypto on credit, while foolish,


Their position is Very understandable
They are Trying to Safeguard their Position ( and to prevent irresponsible people from making a foolish and life alterating mistake).
It could Be worse  they might have banned the buying of Graphics Cards on Credit as they could be used for Crypto mining   Luckly they have not joined the dots  and done that as that would be a paranoid step too far


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Their position is Very understandable
> They are Trying to Safeguard their Position ( and to prevent irresponsible people from making a foolish and life alterating mistake).
> It could Be worse  they might have banned the buying of Graphics Cards on Credit as they could be used for Crypto mining   Luckly they have not joined the dots  and done that as that would be a paranoid step too far



I understand their reasoning.  I don't agree with the basic premise though.  Either you feel an individual can repay a line of credit, or you don't.  It matters not what they do with it.  That's none of the banks concern, IMO.  (I know, this is not how the world works).

My libertarian is showing...

...I blame Bioshock.


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## dorsetknob (Feb 5, 2018)

Its not just British Banks   now some US banks have also joined in

US banks are queueing up to stop customers from buying bitcoin using credit cards, as wild price swings continue on the biggest cryptocurrency.

 JP Morgan Chase and Bank of America both last night said they will ban the practice, according to , which could leave customers chasing the big price rises which bitcoin has seen over the past year with big losses. Citigroup also joined in the ban, according to Bloomberg.

Credit card providers which allow transactions with cryptocurrency exchanges could be left exposed to higher risk than usual because of the massive volatility of the assets.


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## trog100 (Feb 5, 2018)

BTC has broken below the 8000 level.. i cant see many noobs wanting to load up their credit cards with it at the moment and the ones that do will have already done it.. 

i thought it would bottom at 8000 but i was wrong.. where to next.. 7000 maybe.. 

trog


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 5, 2018)

Banks (multiple decent sized EU ones) are banning the purchase of crypto. If this trend spreads to the big names and US based banks it could be the beginning of the end. Not so much because of how it affects buying power of coins for joe blow (who probably has his piggy bank invested already and is crying on the inside right now), but big money investors (that are steering the market) will pull their money if the banks go the anti crypto route.


----------



## arroyo (Feb 5, 2018)

From left side: whale, ICO founder, two hodlers watching stocks.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 5, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I understand their reasoning.  I don't agree with the basic premise though.  Either you feel an individual can repay a line of credit, or you don't.  It matters not what they do with it.  That's none of the banks concern, IMO.  (I know, this is not how the world works).


Remember, when you charge something to a credit card, that money is literally coming out of *their* pocket, not yours.  I'd say it's completely within their right to look out for themselves.  They don't want to be exposed to the volatility of the cryptocurrency market.


----------



## arroyo (Feb 5, 2018)

BTC stocks are fighting tough ... there were BID walls at 8000, then at 7800 then 7600 and now at 7500.
Every of thoose walls failed to stop freefall.

UPDATE: 7500 broken... 7480... 7464... drag it down, make GPU market great again!


----------



## SirEpicWin (Feb 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's stuck at 9000.  Everytime it goes over, there's another sell off:
> https://www.coindesk.com/price/
> 
> I could reasonably see it hitting $10k followed by a big sell off resulting in prices falling to $7K or lower.  Probably going to see this trend of small climbs followed by big sell offs for a while (months).



Spot on analysis lmao


----------



## Liviu Cojocaru (Feb 5, 2018)

It seems like more and more people sell on top of the government regulations and that's why this is going down so bad...for us the gamers this could mean normal GPU prices again?


----------



## RCoon (Feb 5, 2018)

Where's David Hasselhoff when you need him to start singing.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember, when you charge something to a credit card, that money is literally coming out of *their* pocket, not yours.  I'd say it's completely within their right to look out for themselves.  They don't want to be exposed to the volatility of the cryptocurrency market.



As stated,they should be trusting the person they are lending the money too to make their own decisions, IMO.  What has lending come to if we can't trust the agent with the money?

As for the freefall, it is good to see a return to sanity...  What did I tell you guys?  "Just give it time..." 



ShiBDiB said:


> Banks (multiple decent sized EU ones) are banning the purchase of crypto. If this trend spreads to the big names and US based banks it could be the beginning of the end. Not so much because of how it affects buying power of coins for joe blow (who probably has his piggy bank invested already and is crying on the inside right now), but big money investors (that are steering the market) will pull their money if the banks go the anti crypto route.



No bank has banned debit card transactions yet.  And it has spread to US banks on the credit side of things (BofA as an example).


----------



## trog100 (Feb 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Remember, when you charge something to a credit card, that money is literally coming out of *their* pocket, not yours.  I'd say it's completely within their right to look out for themselves.  They don't want to be exposed to the volatility of the cryptocurrency market.



cypto currency is anti bank.. they cant destroy it but they aint gonna help it.. the reasons given are bogus.. banks are scared of crypto and rightly so.. until they come up with their own versions of it that is.. 

only those still a little wet behind the ears believe what banks say in this day and age..

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 5, 2018)

trog100 said:


> cypto currency is anti bank.. they cant destroy it but they aint gonna help it.. the reasons given are bogus.. banks are scared of crypto and rightly so.. until they come up with their own versions of it that is..
> 
> only those still a little wet behind the ears believe what banks say in this day and age..
> 
> trog



The 2008 crisis was caused by scumbags in the housing loan market / banks, so I understand the hate for banks. I would like to think its not 100% corrupt though, I would like to buy a house someday, and the only way I will be able to do that in my current area is with bank loan... so... :/  People can love Crypto all they want, but in reality its very very niche usage or "areas" that can use it to buy cars or housing. Also, if I was that person in Belgium that bought a Castle with Bitcoin, or in Dubai rented an apartment with Bitcoin... and then price of Bitcoin hits 19k like it did... :/ yikes.  So much money wasted... cause you can't sell the castle or apartment...

Stability is key... the banks suck, no doubt about it, its the best option at the moment though and for the foreseeable future.


Bitcoin now under $7300.  its falling... maybe now I can finally buy a gpu for gaming, neat.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 5, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Bitcoin now under $7300.  its falling... maybe now I can finally buy a gpu for gaming, neat.



The average miner isn't mining bitcoin though , as far as I know. At this point probably no one mines bitcoin with GPUs from what I gathered , it's mostly just people buying and dumping like crazy. It's part of the reason why it's value is dropping like a stone now. Everyone was just holding onto it for the past year and now that the shit hit the fan it keeps going in a downward spiral but it doesn't really have much to do with mining itself.

Bottom of the line is , no , you still ain't going to find cheap GPUs.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 5, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> No bank has banned debit card transactions yet.


Credit card purchases are made with their money ( A loan if you like untill you repay it)
debit Card payments are made with Account holder's money ( no Risk to any Financial  institution )


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

The whole idea of banning crypto purchases is dumb... People buy couches with credit cards all the time, and no credit company complains about the fact that couches depreciate by more than 50% the moment you buy them... And people default on couch payments all the time, but no credit card company bans couch purchases. And couches don't even have any possibility of appreciating. 

Or cars, or whatever item you want to pick... I'm not hung up on couches, just saying... consumer goods get bought with credit all the time, and get defaulted on all the time. But nobody bans them. If they don't trust people to make the payments, they shouldn't be lending them the money whether it's a couch or a bitcoin. That's exactly what caused the housing crisis and the US recession. 

That being said... don't buy bitcoin on credit, ya dummies...


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> The whole idea of banning crypto purchases is dumb... People buy couches with credit cards all the time, and no credit company complains about the fact that couches depreciate by more than 50% the moment you buy them... And people default on couch payments all the time, but no credit card company bans couch purchases. And couches don't even have any possibility of appreciating.
> 
> Or cars, or whatever item you want to pick... I'm not hung up on couches, just saying... consumer goods get bought with credit all the time, and get defaulted on all the time. But nobody bans them. If they don't trust people to make the payments, they shouldn't be lending them the money whether it's a couch or a bitcoin. That's exactly what caused the housing crisis and the US recession.



Difference is at least with credit , you can rely (more or less) on the fact that the couch will be worth 50% , with bitcoin not even that. The reason buying couches with credit is not banned is because it's something with a predictable outcome.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Difference is at least with credit , you can rely on the fact that the couch will be worth 50% , with bitcoin not even that. The reason buying couches with credit is not banned is because it's something with a predictable outcome.



Negative. The couch is effectively worth $0 as soon as it's purchased, to the credit company. They can't repo the couch, and even if they could they couldn't sell it for enough to cover the cost of repossession. If the consumer defaults on a couch, they take 100% loss, minus whatever collections agencies will pay for the right to sue.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 5, 2018)

So many Bans happening so fast...
If you got money in this I'd be thinking of collecting it ASAP.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Negative. The couch is effectively worth $0 as soon as it's purchased, to the credit company. They can't repo the couch, and even if they could they couldn't sell it for enough to cover the cost of repossession.



That doesn't really matter , the point is they know exactly what their loses are and can account for that in a reliable way such that overall they can keep going , with bitcoin you can't do that. That's why it is not banned and why bitcoin might end up that way.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> And couches don't even have any possibility of appreciating.



I find money in my couch all the time. Its an earner


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> That doesn't really matter , the point is they know exactly what their loses are and can account for that in a reliable way such that overall they can keep going , with bitcoin you can't do that. That's why it is not banned and why bitcoin might end up that way.



The credit card company also knows exactly what their losses could be/will be. It's exactly equal to the credit limit for that specific customer.


----------



## r9 (Feb 5, 2018)

Most money are made by fluctuation in price.
First you have news spread about bitcoin millionaires.
People start buying the price goes up.
Than some breaking news how its a all a bubble and a reason why it will fail.
Prices goes down.
It's all staged.
For somebody to make money somebody has to be on the loosing side.
There are plenty youtubers that lost money and its always the same story.
Invest little money watch the price goes up and get sucked into investing all their money.
And once the price goes down you know that eventually gonna go up again but when your life savings are on the line no one is willing to hold on.
So they sell all to cut their losses.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> The credit card company also knows exactly what their losses could be/will be. It's exactly equal to the credit limit for that specific customer.



Relying just on the credit limit is not enough , that's not the only aspect on which they work out their loses and decide if it's worth it or not , as a long term strategy. If there is a particular aspect of the economy causing them to lose abnormal amounts of money you can bet they'll do everything to get it banned or make it stop.


----------



## r9 (Feb 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> The credit card company also knows exactly what their losses could be/will be. It's exactly equal to the credit limit for that specific customer.


There is a reason for different rates in for purpose loan like to finance a car buy a house and a credit card.
For creditcard interest rate is way higher for a reason.
Because you can do what you want with the money.
It's retarded for the bank to tell you what to do with the money after you been approved for a credit line.
What if they are wrong and you are right and crypto makes you million dollars that you will keep in their saving account for close to zero interest rate and they can use that money to make money.
What would be next, the bank gonna tell me which restaurants are too expensive for me.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Credit card purchases are made with their money ( A loan if you like untill you repay it)
> debit Card payments are made with Account holder's money ( no Risk to any Financial  institution )



No offense dorset but I am well aware...


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Relying just on the credit limit is not enough , that's not the only aspect on which they work out their loses and decide if it's worth it or not , as a long term strategy. If there is a particular aspect of the economy causing them to lose abnormal amounts of money you can bet they'll do everything to get it banned or make it stop.



For consumer debt, that is all that matters. Sure, with something like a house or car that has a lien, then of course they would evaluate what you're buying. But for consumer credit (credit cards) if they don't think I'm good for the full amount, whether bitcoins or couches, then they should not extend that credit to me, point blank.


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 5, 2018)

Wait so are all the crypto coins crashing or just Bitcoin?

Should I get ready to celebrate normal GPU prices now?


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> For consumer debt, that is all that matters. Sure, with something like a house or car that has a lien, then of course they would evaluate what you're buying. But for consumer credit (credit cards) if they don't think I'm good for the full amount, whether bitcoins or couches, then they should not extend that credit to me, point blank.



All I am saying is that crypto clearly has the potential to get purchases with it banned.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> All I am saying is that crypto clearly has the potential to get purchases with it banned.



Well of course it does... they already did it, so that's pretty obvious... And all I am saying is that that's stupid.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Relying just on the credit limit is not enough , that's not the only aspect on which they work out their loses and decide if it's worth it or not , as a long term strategy. If there is a particular aspect of the economy causing them to lose abnormal amounts of money you can bet they'll do everything to get it banned or make it stop.


Except they would still pay a cash out on a credit card that can then be used to buy crypto, end results the same ,just less traceable to the credit agencies, if a guy wants to buy 5grands worth or whatever he still can , just with a few more steps in the loop, end result is only the mildly interested will be disuaded from credit purchases of crypto, anyone who Wants to, still will.

Most banks will be investing in some form of crypto research at this point, the next ten years i see to be very interesting from a crypto point ,lets see what big money does with blockchain.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 5, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> I find money in my couch all the time. Its an earner


So you have a stealing/thieving couch? Where can I get one


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Wait so are all the crypto coins crashing or just Bitcoin?
> 
> Should I get ready to celebrate normal GPU prices now?



Affirmative.  That said, do not expect this to be the last time there is a shortage.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Except they would still pay a cash out on a credit card that can then be used to buy crypto, end results the same ,just less traceable to the credit agencies, if a guy wants to buy 5grands worth or whatever he still can , just with a few more steps in the loop, end result is only the mildly interested will be disuaded from credit purchases of crypto, anyone who Wants to, still will.



And cash withdrawals usually carry a much higher interest rate... Which means them banning crypto purchases isn't about protecting from losses at all, but rather about making more money while also hurting crypto's popularity.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 5, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Affirmative.  That said, do not expect this to be the last time there is a shortage.


Shortage of what ~ GPUs? That's an extreme case of supply & demand, due in part owing to a financial instrument that's as yet to be legitimately accepted by most of the world's economies.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 5, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> I find money in my couch all the time. Its an earner


So are all of my graphics cards. When I sell them they will still be earners.


----------



## r9 (Feb 5, 2018)

Generally there are two groups of people.
First group invested into Crypto trading or mining that want to see Crypto do good and will justify its existence.
Second group regular PC user who wants to buy a GPU at regular price and think Crypto is bs and justify banks and governments banning it. 
And than there is me.
I'm a miner that wants to see Crypto to do good but on the other side I know that its a bubble and a pyramid scheme.
The general idea about a decentralized currency and all is great.
But the way it actually works it's useless and wasteful and it's price its dictated by the greed of the people.
Let me elaborate on that.
Because you would think that the price would be dictated by its practical use and value and I haven't bought a single thing with the coins I mined except some us dollars. lol
And if the buying and selling is not the main purpose of a currency is I don't know what it is than.
So the demand dictates the price and the demand is not dictated by its practical value instead by the hope that the price will keep going up.
Don't even start me on the mining.
The difficulty rises %25  a month, so in order to produce the same amount of crypto you have to increase your hashrate by %25 every month.
So everybody is investing and investing but as a whole we are not being more productive.
The redistribution of the Crypto pie changes among miners but thats about it.
So more more and more electricity is wasted to do the same work every month.
Like I said before its useless and wasteful and it's price its dictated by the greed of the people. 
Sorry for the long post, had to express my self. lol


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 5, 2018)

I think it's a funny coincidence that after Nvidia used miners to keep prices high on tech while using those extra resources to build their new GeForce Now center that they finally decided to speak up... Just before Banks and Govt's started to take action.... It's time to get out y'all.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 5, 2018)

r9 said:


> Generally there are two groups of people.
> First group invested into Crypto trading or mining that want to see Crypto do good and will justify its existence.
> Second group regular PC user who wants to buy a GPU at regular price and think Crypto is bs and justify banks and governments banning it.
> And than there is me.
> ...


There's also a third group, that wants to stay in power & keeps milking crypto ~ like they've done with the others. It's not you, me or anyone else on this forum who'll decide the fate of BTC or whatever takes its place. Our de facto rulers most certainly will.


----------



## r9 (Feb 5, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> There's also a third group, that wants to stay in power & keeps milking crypto ~ like they've done with the others. It's not you, me or anyone else on this forum who'll decide the fate of BTC or whatever takes its place. Our de facto rulers most certainly will.


I'm sure that qualifies for the first group. lol


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 5, 2018)

r9 said:


> I'm sure that qualifies for the first group. lol


Not really, the third group makes money whatever happens to crypto ~ they'll still make money if BTC disappears tomorrow but probably more if BTC shoots up to the moon again.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2018)

Looks like the free-fall continues. Hopefully, tech prices will return to normal..


----------



## arroyo (Feb 5, 2018)

Today on "Hell's Kitchen" our guest John Mcafee will cook the cock.
... ekhm rooster.


----------



## BiggieShady (Feb 5, 2018)

Funny how time to validate one bitcoin transaction is 10 minutes ... the vast world bitcoin network can process 6 transactions per hour ... the whole freaking world. Obviously it's not the currency being used much ... other than for exchange from/to alt coins and cash. It's like overblown bubble deflating while being pumped with alt coins at the same time ... and now the balance is off


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> The average miner isn't mining bitcoin though , as far as I know. At this point probably no one mines bitcoin with GPUs from what I gathered , it's mostly just people buying and dumping like crazy. It's part of the reason why it's value is dropping like a stone now. Everyone was just holding onto it for the past year and now that the shit hit the fan it keeps going in a downward spiral but it doesn't really have much to do with mining itself.
> 
> Bottom of the line is , no , you still ain't going to find cheap GPUs.




all of the alt coins are crashing in price too... everything is tied to Bitcoin crashing because Bitcoin is the exchange to fiat medium all the alt coins rely on.  so its possible GPU's will come back actually... coindesk shows the top ten coins crashing for a week straight now.

@FordGT90Concept  your 9 grand bottoming out was wrong. lol its at $6700 now and still falling.  dang son...


----------



## erocker (Feb 5, 2018)

Everything is crashing today. China seems to have backed out of crypto today, Samsung is making a bunch of ASIC chips. US stock market, largest decline in one day. Ouch!


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 5, 2018)

No worries. Time to buy...especially alts.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Shortage of what ~ GPUs? That's an extreme case of supply & demand, due in part owing to a financial instrument that's as yet to be legitimately accepted by most of the world's economies.



And it's happened several times now...  it will happen again.


----------



## Sasqui (Feb 5, 2018)

https://cointelegraph.com/news/all-eyes-on-tether-amid-crypto-pull-back

*All Eyes on Tether Amid Crypto Pull Back*

"The top 50 cryptocurrencies saw massive price corrections last week, coming to a head on Feb. 2. The total market capitalization dropped to just over $400 bln at the time of writing- amid massive uncertainty across the board.  Almost overshadowed, but not forgotten, is the news that Bitfinex along with Tether received subpoenas from US regulators in December, who have had their eyes on the exchange and cryptocurrency.

This in itself is understandable, but industry experts have raised concerns over the last few months in relation to the increase in supply of Tether which correlated with rallies in the market. Bitfinex, which is the largest exchange in the world, threatened legal action to parties that had accused the exchange of misconduct.

The reason for allegation is quite predictable. Bitfinex issues Tether tokens which are issued for US dollars on a 1:1 ratio.  In simple terms, Bitfinex were accused of not having 1:1 reserves of dollars to issued Tether tokens.

The problem is that because one Tether token equals one dollar, it has been used to buy other cryptocurrencies because of its standardized value. This culminated in suggestions that the price of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies had been inflated because people had been buying cryptocurrencies with Tether and not actual US dollars. If Bitfinex does not have an equal reserve of dollars to back up the amount of Tether tokens in existence, things could end badly."


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

BiggieShady said:


> Funny how time to validate one bitcoin transaction is 10 minutes ... the vast world bitcoin network can process 6 transactions per hour ... the whole freaking world. Obviously it's not the currency being used much ... other than for exchange from/to alt coins and cash. It's like overblown bubble deflating while being pumped with alt coins at the same time ... and now the balance is off




lolwut?  It can do much more than 6 transactions per hour.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 5, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> @FordGT90Concept  your 9 grand bottoming out was wrong. lol its at $6700 now and still falling.  dang son...


I did say "7k or lower."  That said, I did expect it to stabilize for a day or two, climbing to a milestone before initiating another sell off.

The new question becomes: is this the bottom?  I don't know and my fortune crystal is foggy. 


Re Tether: that's going to implode fast.  Any exchange that uses coins to facilitate the exchange will.  That kind of structure isn't even a stack of a cards: it's a stack of air.


Everything is down today, again, because the fed is going to make money cost more.  Free money can no longer flow everywhere (most of it went to risky investments like stocks and crypto).  Money is coming out of those accounts and moving to bonds, gold, and other safe havens (assets that are hardened against inflation changes).


----------



## trog100 (Feb 5, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> The average miner isn't mining bitcoin though , as far as I know. At this point probably no one mines bitcoin with GPUs from what I gathered , it's mostly just people buying and dumping like crazy. It's part of the reason why it's value is dropping like a stone now. Everyone was just holding onto it for the past year and now that the shit hit the fan it keeps going in a downward spiral but it doesn't really have much to do with mining itself.
> 
> Bottom of the line is , no , you still ain't going to find cheap GPUs.




yes it does.. bitcoin seems to drag everything else up or down with it.. a couple of weeks back before bitcoin tanked and took the other cryptos down with it.. my eth miner was making 50 dollars per day now its making less than 20 dollars per day.. that is one hell of a difference.. all down to bitcoin tanking and dragging everything else down with it..

but cryto isnt dead yet.. i think its being manipulated down.. it will reach a genuine bottom.. i thought it would be 8000 but it seems not.. but it will bottom and when it does the only way will be up..

i am mining and holding eth but i also have about 12 k invested in other coins.. eth litecoin neo and cardano.. they have all followed bitcoin down.. i have taken a big loss. apart from that i dont really care what bitcoin does.. i expected it to go down i just didnt expect it to take everything else down with it like it has.

my thinking might be a little biased.. but i still think once the markets are flushed of all the weak players the prices will go up and at the same time become less volatile.. its the panicky noobs selling at the the least fud mongering that causes the volatility.. once they are flushed out of the system things will get better.. or worse for those waiting for gpu prices to drop..

only a fool or a hard core seasoned player would throw money at crypto now.. the market is better off without the fools and the volatility they cause..

trog

ps..   the month figure at its peak was showing close to 1500 dollars.. now its near 600 dollars.. all due to the slavish way eth follows bitcoin during these big up or down movements..


----------



## jaggerwild (Feb 5, 2018)

Look, its RAINING 1080TI"S^^^^^^^^^ 

 Stock market went down 600 points Friday.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

jaggerwild said:


> Look, its RAINING 1080TI"S^^^^^^^^^



Yeah, links or it didn't happen.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 5, 2018)

jaggerwild said:


> Look, its RAINING 1080TI"S^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Stock market went down 600 points Friday.



stock market when down 1500 points today. 600 is nothing. Trump isn't tweeting about it though, Kappa.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Feb 5, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> stock market when down 1500 points today. 600 is nothing. Trump isn't tweeting about it though, Kappa.



Sucks when you have stock in a few companies and you were up 15-20% around middle of last week and now are breaking even after last Friday and today......makes one want to dump what they have to save face. Thankfully I don't have too much into it; I'll sit and see where it goes from here. Hopefully the fears of inflation and possible interest rate hike taper off.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 5, 2018)

people have been predicting a stock market "correction" for a long time.. 

the predictions could well be coming true.. when it does blow the price of a graphics card will be the last thing on peoples minds.. he he

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 5, 2018)

That's 7.5% compared to BTCs, what, 65% plunge since the bubble burst?  Everyone and their dog knows DJIA/NASDAQ has been a bull market way too long.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's 7.5% compared to BTCs, what, 65% plunge since the bubble burst?  Everyone and their dog knows DJIA/NASDAQ has been a bull market way too long.



crypto can stand it.. the stock markets cant.. when/if that bubble bursts as it may well be doing it dosnt bear thinking about.. the rest of this week should be interesting.. 

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 5, 2018)

Sometimes i wonder if its a CIA plot to Punish NK for all the Crypto hacks they Allegedly perpetrated and ruin the value of NK Crypto holdings


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 5, 2018)

where do you guys check for the bitcoin-usd? I am still seeing >$7000

Sell all your 1080/1080Tis miners, hahahahaha.

I will pay $100 for mined 1080 and $125 for mined 1080Ti.

Hey I can dream!



dorsetknob said:


> Sometimes i wonder if its a CIA plot to Punish NK for all the Crypto hacks they Allegedly perpetrated and ruin the value of NK Crypto holdings



CIA is a lot more interested in in-fighting between different western political/enterprise monopolies than focusing on NK.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 5, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> where do you guys check for the bitcoin-usd? I am still seeing >$7000
> 
> Sell all your 1080/1080Tis miners, hahahahaha.
> 
> ...



https://www.gdax.com/trade/BTC-USD


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> I will pay $100 for mined 1080 and $125 for mined 1080Ti.



Good luck telling the difference...


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 5, 2018)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> No worries. Time to buy...especially alts.



el o el

If you did any actual investments in crypto and not just speculative gee wiz expendable money purchases, nows the time to cut your losses and never come back. The big money investors are pulling out, they control the price.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> el o el
> 
> If you did any actual investments in crypto and not just speculative gee wiz expendable money purchases, nows the time to cut your losses and never come back. The big money investors are pulling out, they control the price.



Said every year about this time...


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 5, 2018)

It'll dead cat bounce at some point, more low level investors thinking they can save themselves by doubling down will jump in and then this thing will tank even further.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> It'll dead cat bounce at some point, more low level investors thinking they can save themselves by doubling down will jump in and then this thing will tank even further.



So you say.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 5, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Affirmative.  That said, do not expect this to be the last time there is a shortage.


I would agree memory is in short supply still is for six months ish i don't see any changes regardless , I've mined 8 months , hit roi in 6 and have had four oh f##k minings dead moments, and it's not died yet ill switch to folding coin if it gets unprofitable but ill run even lower power, either way im not too fussed the fishtank miner/folder ideas nearly there.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 5, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> It'll dead cat bounce at some point, more low level investors thinking they can save themselves by doubling down will jump in and then this thing will tank even further.



 I've already bought my popcorn ,just waiting for the show to start


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> I've already bought my popcorn ,just waiting for the show to start



Meh, I sense you'll be dissapointed and frustrated by years end, but hey, why not be filled with glee at anothers misfortune?  It fills me with TPU-spirit. /s

...I don't like what this trivial issue has done to our community.  You guys should be looking at yourselves hard, right now.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 6, 2018)

I dont care if it crashes. The money that I sent on graphics cards is expendable to me. Some people have extra money to buy race cars, I had extra money to send on graphics cards. I got in when profits where 4x what today is and when cards where selling for under retail price. All cards are paid for and I made extra income to add to the retirement account and without selling not 1 of my own cards. 
All cards that I sold where to other miners in groups of 6x or fully built mining machines.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 6, 2018)

You see that giant wall at 6550? Yea... that's why I'm not worried.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Meh, I sense you'll be dissapointed and frustrated by years end, but hey, why not be filled with glee at anothers misfortune?  It fills me with TPU-spirit. /s
> 
> ...I don't like what this trivial issue has done to our community.  You guys should be looking at yourselves hard, right now.



People are always gonna do what their going to do. I never said I was going to take pleasure in misfortune, I just said I was gonna watch the show.

I won't be disappointed because I have no stock in it. As I said before, popcorn & a show

& with all due respect. i have no need for anyone to tell me to take a hard look at myself. MY moral compass is just fine.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> People are always gonna do what their going to do. I never said I was going to take pleasure in misfortune, I just said I was gonna watch the show.
> 
> I won't be disappointed because I have no stock in it. As I said before, popcorn & a show
> 
> & with all due respect. i have no need for anyone to tell me to take a hard look at myself. MY moral compass is just fine.



I was speaking to TPU as a whole.  It's gotten bad here as of late.  Your quote was mostly coincidental.  I just want to see the glee at misfortune stop.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 6, 2018)

im sorry if that was the case, but you'll have to forgive my misunderstanding.....


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> im sorry if that was the case, but you'll have to forgive my misunderstanding.....



No, forgive me.  I started off quoting you and then began speaking broadly.  It was not clear.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I was speaking to TPU as a whole.  It's gotten bad here as of late.  Your quote was mostly coincidental.  I just want to see the glee at misfortune stop.



It's the point I have been trying to get across for the last week, although not as eloquently.  I don't understand why people are so excited for people's misfortune.  Are they happy the 'real' markets were down so much today?  I mean, investors are the reason that companies have to endlessly pursue profits so cut-down chips are now priced at 'top end' (we will casually ignore AMD's ineptitude at the moment) EDIT: and ghast, microtransactions.....  I don't wish for people's houses to get broken into and possessions stolen.  Yet, multiple occasions people have commented how they hope hacker's 'do their job'.

It's gross.

Then again, it really is a great microcosm of the global state of affairs.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 6, 2018)

Let's keep in mind ,your foot doesn't get burned in hot water unless you put it in the tub. It's all voluntary the good and the bad.  This is the nature of risk.  If you throw on top of that ,the fact that your particular risk action effects those not taking the risk (by driving prices for items they use for other purposes) through the roof ,yes... I think that some animosity is a reasonable expectation by any person with a decent head on their shoulders, or atleast one that's not delusional.

  If I suddenly went out ,and bought every motherboard on the market and caused the price to skyrocket by four or five times, I would 110% expect animosity and hate from those it affected .
im not saying the animosity is bad or good, but it IS 100% expected, and natural. claiming people are "immoral" or anything other than reacting expectedly, is (IMO) a tad high horsed


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 6, 2018)

I mean if we're talking actual real money economy (har har) than while stocks dipping would hurt, it's also better they dip sooner than crash later. 

Same goes for crypto, the price was driven by big investors jumping in because they saw a way to make money on an unsustainable wave for an intangible currency based on nothing. Some little guys made out ok but I'd hazard most rode the wave up, and rode is back down as well. 

Crypto was and will be a "fun" speculative investment. Meaning you don't invest something you can't afford to lose. Which is what I think a few too many people did, they saw dollar signs (or euro squiggle things) and cashed out of proven investments based off of hype without actually understanding that it was a palace built on sand. 

So I do not get joy out of misfortune, but I do admittedly get joy out of for lack of a better word stupidity. Which is what putting your life savings (or your banks via your cc's) into crypto really is.


----------



## Sasqui (Feb 6, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> It's the point I have been trying to get across for the last week, although not as eloquently. I don't understand why people are so excited for people's misfortune.



Dare I say it's because graphics cards may once again be obtainable? 

I don't think there's so much glee involved... it's morbid fascination.  Like watching a bad car crash from the comfort of your car in a traffic jam.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Are they happy the 'real' markets were down so much today?


I am because money has been too cheap for too long (since "Quantative Easing" program began).


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

Sasqui said:


> Dare I say it's because graphics cards may once again be obtainable?



Yeah, there's that.  But anyone who understood the situation knew the shortage would not last long.  Part of why all the hoopla about it was retarded...



FordGT90Concept said:


> I am because money has been too cheap for too long (since "Quantative Easing" program began).



I'm unsure what that even means, and am frankly somewhat confused as to what you would consider ideal?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing#US_QE1,_QE2,_and_QE3

When it began:
Dow Jones down 4.3 percent since Fed chair Ben Bernanke took the podium

Interest rate was 2% and it's fallen to ~0% since then.  Now the economy has finally recovered from the 2008 collapse and interest rates are going to start going up.  Stock market is never happy about interest rates changing.  The underlying data is good though so...*shrug*...to the DJIA falling.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2018)

Sasqui said:


> Dare I say it's because graphics cards may once again be obtainable?



It has been two months?!


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> It has been two months?!



Exactly.  The overreaction was very very severely vehement over what?  A frickin 2 month shortage...  I mean that just boggles my mind.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

But shortages...create backorders.  If production stays the same, the backorders get bigger and it takes longer for the entire market to be satisfied.  Ehm, if the mining demand vanished right now, it would be months (at best) before cards would be in stock everywhere again.

And think of the people that are hurt the most by this: people buying new computers and people buying replacement cards because theirs died.  In the former group, the cost of a new gaming machine has gone up hugely.  In the latter group, people end up with a downgrade simply because merely matching what they used to have is a costly proposition.

"Overreaction," no.  It's the expected reaction.  Doesn't matter what commodity has it's supply/demand chain disrupted, these trends are expected to follow.  Case in point: look at grocery stores before a bad storm or fuel stations before a hurricane is about to hit.  Warehouses aren't really a thing anymore: goods are produced and consumed in short order so any disruption in the formula quickly becomes a major disruption.

Any mining is a special kind of crazy.  When it's on the upswing, it is impossible to produce enough hardware to satisfy demand.  On the downswing, the market gets flooded with orphaned hardware.  There's no wining with mining if you're a hardware vendor.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Ehm, if the mining demand vanished right now, it would be months before cards would be in stock everywhere again.



If mining demand vanished right now, people could hit ebay for whatever they wanted at a price they could only imagine.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Feb 6, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> You see that giant wall at 6550? Yea... that's why I'm not worried.
> 
> View attachment 96797




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/4fg52u


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> If mining demand vanished right now, people could hit ebay for whatever they wanted at a price they could only imagine.



This.  You guys are going to be getting hardly used 1080TIs at a price you could only dream of.

Mining these days is not abusive.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

If there isn't retail supply to drive the price down, the ebay prices aren't going to change much.  Just a larger volume of second-hand cards on there.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If there isn't retail supply to drive the price down, the ebay prices aren't going to change much.  Just a larger volume of second-hand cards on there.



Except most of the cards hitting ebay will have already been paid for so anything is a bonus.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

For the seller, not the buyer; hence, months to recover.  It's the would-be buyers that are furious.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2018)

Bitcoin is now down near 6300 at the moment.. i am beginning to wonder just how low it can go.. he he..

i will hodle down to zero if i have to but its getting a bit scary.. he he

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

trog100 said:


> Bitcoin is now down near 6300 at the moment.. i am beginning to wonder just how low it can go.. he he..


The price doesn't actually matter so much as the inability to find a buyer.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The price doesn't actually matter so much as the inability to find a buyer.



Inability?  Exchanges are still running buy orders last I checked...


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 6, 2018)

I sold my last of my ETH coins (7.62) yesterday when it was $824, has of this time, still falling to $612.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Inability?  Exchanges are still running buy orders last I checked...


I'm not saying now, I'm saying when BTC is done for.  It could be at $1 or $100,000 but in either case, it will be that no one is buying anymore.  The floor only matters to those looking to buy; doesn't matter when no one is looking.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> And it's happened several times now...  it will happen again.


Yes, but what if central banks accept it as a legitimate form of payment, exchange rate problems & international regulations aside? Will the GPUs then perennially be short in supply, or does the market then accept $1000 GPU as the new normal? Assuming you can still make money from mining various coins.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

Not worth considering because they won't.  Cryptocurrency is a commodity, not legal tender.  Commodities swing according to supply and demand.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> *Not worth considering because they won't*.  Cryptocurrency is a commodity, not legal tender.  Commodities swing according to supply and demand.


That's debatable because right now they're neither here nor there, just dangling small buyers/traders/investors with a hope of making it real.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm not saying now, I'm saying when BTC is done for.  It could be at $1 or $100,000 but in either case, it will be that no one is buying anymore.  The floor only matters to those looking to buy; doesn't matter when no one is looking.



I don't think you can honestly comprehend how unlikely that is, but time will show...


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> That's debatable because right now they're neither here nor there, just dangling small buyers/traders/investors with a hope of making it real.


I suggestion you look into the Automated Clearing House system.  There's literally no reason for blockchain to exist in the finance industry.

Even if blockchain tech were to be implemented (which it won't), it wouldn't look anything like the cryptocurrencies available now.  Namely, it requires a mechanism of creating and destroying unique units inside the system in order to stabilize it for physical legal tender parrallelism.  In other words, it *can't* be a liberalist system: it has to be strictly controlled by the Fed (or whichever central bank is in control of it).


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 6, 2018)

Come on baby, I am ready for some cheapo TitanXp or 1080Tis. Come at me!

https://media0.giphy.com/media/yZaiNB8rIoJlm/200.gif#15-grid1


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I suggestion you look into the Automated Clearing House system.  There's literally no reason for blockchain to exist in the finance industry.


I said a legitimate form of payment ~ so in theory it could be traded like gold, with it's real value tied to dollars or say the Euro. It will not replace or augment national currencies because that's a socio-political & economic disaster which'll impale the world beyond recognition, much worse than 2008 or 1929. For instance we have gold loans in India, mortgage your gold & take up to ~80% of the value as loans. Something like that is plausible, given how many people are entangled in crypto atm & the alternatives are probably much worse.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

BTC market cap = $106 USD 
QUALCOMM market cap = $97 billion USD (employees: 33,500)

Cryptocurrency is small fish.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I suggestion you look into the Automated Clearing House system.  There's literally no reason for blockchain to exist in the finance industry.
> 
> Even if blockchain tech were to be implemented (which it won't), it wouldn't look anything like the cryptocurrencies available now.  Namely, it requires a mechanism of creating and destroying unique units inside the system in order to stabilize it for physical legal tender parrallelism.  In other words, it *can't* be a liberalist system: it has to be strictly controlled by the Fed (or whichever central bank is in control of it).


ACH is kinda slow. A better version of the blockchain can be much faster, the tech just has to get better.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

On purpose: it gives all parties a chance to throw a flag on the transaction before it clears.


----------



## hat (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm barely making over $3/day mining now. It wasn't too long ago I was getting over $10. It seems I'm still getting roughly the same BTC as I was before from my mining, only it's worth much less now.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 6, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> You see that giant wall at 6550? Yea... that's why I'm not worried.
> 
> View attachment 96797




As it tumbles to 6000

lol.. the only thing worse than the bitcoin haters are the bitcoin super fans


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> As it tumbles to 6000
> 
> lol.. the only thing worse than the bitcoin haters are the bitcoin super fans



I've said it before and I'll say it again:  It going lower is long overdue and is probably a good thing in the longterm.


----------



## BiggieShady (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> lolwut? It can do much more than 6 transactions per hour.


Yeah, oops, I realized later that it's 10 minute per transaction ... and that it doesn't limit the throughput because it's not serial processing - many transactions get added to a chain at the same time. Now I'm wondering how can we calculate how many transactions need to be added to a blockchain to saturate the network.


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 6, 2018)

$1 = 10 BTC would be about right.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> $1 = 10 BTC would be about right.



For you maybe. 

Ultimately, the market will decide.  That buy wall is only getting tougher as we go down.



BiggieShady said:


> Yeah, oops, I realized later that it's 10 minute per transaction ... and that it doesn't limit the throughput because it's not serial processing - many transactions get added to a chain at the same time. Now I'm wondering how can we calculate how many transactions need to be added to a blockchain to saturate the network.



You just need to know the block limit.  Bitcoins is smallish because devs like it that way (part of why bitcoin cash was created), and largely already saturated.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 6, 2018)

Bitcoin at $6,053 USD.... wow, I wonder if it will hit 5k, maybe even lower, I think 5-6k is its limit, before the big boys like John Mcfee and companies in China buy it in mass, they are no different than people in stock markets who own 80% of a single company and then use the 20% leftover to trick the buy low and sell high peasant boi's. lol  its a dead currency at this point as far as im concerned. looks like all crypto's are crashing still, I didn't think the crash would last this long honestly. but yeah 1080 ti's on Ebay might be a thing soon if this lasts another week or so... I could def use one


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> lol its a dead currency at this point as far as im concerned.



It's up %400+ from last year still...  I mean if it's dead now, what was it then?  Super dead?  Undead?  Permakilled?


----------



## RCoon (Feb 6, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> You see that giant wall at 6550? Yea... that's why I'm not worried.
> 
> View attachment 96797



Careful what walls you rely on.


----------



## arroyo (Feb 6, 2018)

6000-6200$ looks like tough wall to break. If it will collapse, then next step is to break 5000$.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

arroyo said:


> 6000-6200$ looks like tough wall to break. If it will collapse, then next step is to break 5000$.



You say that like it's some kind of job to do.

...

Meh why do I bother...


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 6, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the stock markets cant..



Of course it can't  , it's much more relevant.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Of course it can't  , it's much more relevant.



Being bigger kind of has that effect.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> You say that like it's some kind of job to do.
> 
> ...
> 
> Meh why do I bother...


Bother with what, all you do is post whimsical bs with nothing to back it up.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 6, 2018)

If the Stock market collapse's it will effect billions of people world wide but there are tangible assets to restructure and rebuild
if Crypto collapses it effects 100,000's but there are no real world assets its all virtual
The effect of Crypto collapse is about the same as Nuclear war in the Online world of Eve


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> Bother with what, all you do is post whimsical bs with nothing to back it up.



Nothing?  I mean, crypto history must be lost on everyone here.  What short memories we have.

Was my last article, chock full of data on crypto and efficiency nothing at all?

For the rest, if you feel my opinion needs a citation, look at the frog.  He will croak you one.



dorsetknob said:


> If the Stock market collapse's it will effect billions of people world wide but there are tangible assets to restructure and rebuild
> if Crypto collapses it effects 100,000's but there are no real world assets its all virtual
> The effect of Crypto collapse is about the same as Nuclear war in the Online world of Eve



The money changing hands in the so called "collapse of crypto" is very, very real.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> The money changing hands in the so called "collapse of crypto" is very, very real.


Yes its Real money 
Being Exchanged for a Virtual item and sometime Back 
To Be honest its is no Different to Buying property in Virtual Games


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Yes its Real money
> Being Exchanged for a Virtual item and sometime Back
> To Be honest its is no Different to Buying property in Virtual Games



Not much different at all in basic concept.  Keep in mind people have actually made and lost fortunes that way too...  and the pain of money lost is very real.  That's all I'm trying to point out.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

It's not like everyone that knew markets wasn't saying crypto is a bad idea.  They were warned, repeatedly.

Some reminders:


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 6, 2018)

Wow crypto free fall... 

BTC this time last year was $1040...


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 6, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Wow crypto free fall...



More like Base jumping


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 6, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> More like Base jumping



Well people like to say "Ride the Wave"

I think ill change that to "Base Jumping" : )


----------



## ratirt (Feb 6, 2018)

Investors, banking, entire country market etc.  need stability. How can you invest in or rely on something fluctuating so much. Risk to profit is very high here and also there's no 100% assurance that there will be any profit whatsoever.


----------



## Sasqui (Feb 6, 2018)

A little bump in the step this morning, BTC is back up over $7k


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's not like everyone that knew markets wasn't saying crypto is a bad idea.  They were warned, repeatedly.
> 
> Some reminders:



are you trying to make a point ford.. if so its rather pointless.. for every crypto fan there is a crytpo nay sayer.. they are all pushing their own cause.. pretty much like you are.. 

you can play one off against another for every and still not reach any valid conclusions.. time will tell and that is about it..

trog



Sasqui said:


> A little bump in the step this morning, BTC is back up over $7k



and it looks like a nice healthy one too.. 

i have given up making predictions but for this uptick to be valid it needs to keep the momentum up and not piss about.. we need to see at least 8000 reached before the end of the day..

trog


----------



## arroyo (Feb 6, 2018)

Warren Buffet is authority, he is "legendary investor". And he made his fortune by himself. People are paying millions of dollars to eat dinner with him and have opportunity to ask him for advise:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...uction-attracts-winning-offer-of-2-68-million
For me this is the man who know how to make business ... as opposite to hundereds of youtubers, HODLers and J. Mcafee.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2018)

delete


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 6, 2018)

Report
*trog100*
A post that contains nothing but quoting your own post with no additional content is just a wasted post and frustrating  
thank you for the edit addition


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It's up %400+ from last year still...  I mean if it's dead now, what was it then?  Super dead?  Undead?  Permakilled?



The point I was making is any currency that fluctuates this much on a consistent basis will never get the backing of the big league boys, ala, hedgefund bruhs who run the world. Bitcoin will never be a currency on a large scale, its ability to crash and rise so dramatically all the time is not what the vast majority of people want out of life with their little savings they have. So Bitcoin is dead in a way, even if it rises to 10k again or 20k, it won't matter, I am not going to be able to rent property with it (with my current location) and even if I could I wouldn't want to because I would be afraid I overpaid after 3 months and another crash.

Fiat currency, is not perfect, but its overall stable. I make 15 Euro an hour, and that is something I can count on staying stable, thats real life sadly. I am glad some of you got rich off crypto, but honestly its all about subconscious accidental pyramid scheme at this point. Hype factors, problem is when you try to cash in for fiat currency all at the same time the exchanges "shut down for maintenance" lol... yet I withdrew 8 grand Euro in cash last month, and they didn't even make me wait a moment. The banks are not so bad 



arroyo said:


> 6000-6200$ looks like tough wall to break. If it will collapse, then next step is to break 5000$.




It is already up to $7400 again. Prob big companies buying it up or China, so they can twist the market again and make fools out of everyone while they get rich. Crypto is a pyramid scheme at this point. It's sad.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Report
> *trog100*
> A post that contains nothing but quoting your own post with no additional content is just a wasted post and frustrating
> thank you for the edit addition



 the auto merging went wrong for me.. not intentional.. 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

FYI you can literally delete your own posts (so long as it is recent):


----------



## Noyand (Feb 6, 2018)

I've bought 37 $ worth of bitcoin as an experiment wich have now turned to 38 $. I'm about to do the same with 18$ worth of ETH. I'm just going to sit there and see what happens in the next few months.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

arroyo said:


> Warren Buffet is authority, he is "legendary investor". And he made his fortune by himself. People are paying millions of dollars to eat dinner with him and have opportunity to ask him for advise:
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...uction-attracts-winning-offer-of-2-68-million
> For me this is the man who know how to make business ... as opposite to hundereds of youtubers, HODLers and J. Mcafee.



He's also deeply involved with traditional wall-street.

And for every example, there is a counter example, like the self-made bitcoin billionaires the Winklevoss Twins.



lynx29 said:


> The point I was making is any currency that fluctuates this much on a consistent basis will never get the backing of the big league boys, ala, hedgefund bruhs who run the world.



As a currency no.  As a security?  Sure.  There is money to be made on those fluctuations.



lynx29 said:


> It is already up to $7400 again. Prob big companies buying it up or China, so they can twist the market again and make fools out of everyone while they get rich. Crypto is a pyramid scheme at this point. It's sad.



It goes down, it's a pyramid scheme, it goes up, it's a pyramid scheme.  I'm firmly convinced at this point there is nothing it could do that would make you say otherwise.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 6, 2018)

RCoon said:


> Careful what walls you rely on.



Haha indeed. I ate my words on that one.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> He's also deeply involved with traditional wall-street.


Which isn't going anywhere.  You know, because assets.  Share holders literally own a stake in the company.  What asset does BTC have?



R-T-B said:


> And for every example, there is a counter example, like the self-made bitcoin billionaires the Winklevoss Twins.


For every big winner, there's hundreds of losers.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Which isn't going anywhere.  You know, because assets.  Share holders literally own a stake in the company.  What asset does BTC have?



Irrelevant to my point, which was his obvious bias.

I'd explain to you BTC's asset again but I refuse to believe you've forgotten already.  Hint:  Global reach?  Universal store of value?



> For every big winner, there's hundreds of losers.



This is true of any price-variable market.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Irrelevant to my point, which was his obvious bias.


Then ask yourself if the "bias" is justified?  The last few months should answer that question for you.  At least with the stock market, you know it's always going to be a net positive because the economy grows.  Even if you buy at the peak, you'll eventually be able to still make a profit on the investment (unless you're really unlucky/bad investor).  That guarantee does not exist with crypto and it never will.

Pro-tip: good investors try to avoid bubbles because that's where the aforementioned rule doesn't apply.  If they see a bubble forming, they sell because the potential profits don't outweigh the risk of losing it all.



R-T-B said:


> Global reach?  Universal store of value?


USD presently does both of those things and does it better than cryptocurrency ever can because it's heavily regulated and upheld by the largest economy on Earth.



R-T-B said:


> This is true of any price-variable market.  And it's more like a 1:1 ratio.


Which billionaire did the Winklevoss Twins take from?


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The last few months should answer that question for you.



It doesn't.  Honestly, the only way you would even make a statement like that is if you are very new to crypto in general.  This is just a repeat of repeated history.



FordGT90Concept said:


> USD presently does both of those things.



Not easily by any means.  Have you tried moving money globally?  Gets expensive...

And no, btc is not the cure for that either...



FordGT90Concept said:


> Which billionaire did the Winklevoss Twins take from?



I withdrew that part of the comment.  Tis early and I wasn't thinking much.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Pro-tip: good investors try to avoid bubbles because that's where the aforementioned rule doesn't apply. If they see a bubble forming, they sell because the potential profits don't outweigh the risk of losing it all.



I take it you've never heard of the various risk ratings and why having some high risk options can actually be good for a portfolio.


----------



## arroyo (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Which billionaire did the Winklevoss Twins take from?


$65 million from Marc Zuckerberg got in 2004 in court.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It doesn't.  Honestly, the only way you would even make a statement like that is if you are very new to crypto in general.  This is just a repeat of repeated history.


Except it isn't.  The bubble was created because of awareness.  Now that people are aware that cryptocurrency isn't like the stock market (it's much more risky), there isn't going to be a second wave.  It's like how people that get burned by timeshares don't buy more timeshares.



R-T-B said:


> Not easily by any means.  Have you tried moving money globally?  Gets expensive...


Because crypto is dodging fees/taxes.  It won't always be able to do that.  Governments move slow.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

arroyo said:


> $65 million from Marc Zuckerberg got in 2004 in court.



Kinda irrelevant to his point and their ultimate final worth, though.  He's arguing they ate a lot of little investor money to become billionaires.  And he'd be right.



FordGT90Concept said:


> because crypto is dodging fees/taxes.  It won't always be able to do that.  Governments move slow.



Fees mainly.  Commercial fees like paypal.  Government need not apply.  You know what a "money transmitters" license is right, and what a PITA it is to get one?  Crypto bypasses the commercial nature of that.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Except it isn't. The bubble was created because of awareness. Now that people are aware that cryptocurrency isn't like the stock market (it's much more risky), there isn't going to be a second wave. It's like how people that get burned by timeshares don't buy more timeshares.



Ford, I've been in crypto a long time.  And this might be a new phrase to you, but to me, you're being a fricking parrot...


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

I'd rather play in the stock market where I'm eating corporate profits than people like my parents just trying to make their retirement a little cushier.  This is the fundamental difference between Wall Street and pyramid/multi-level marketing/crypto schemes.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'd rather play in the stock market....



Then go do that...


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Which isn't going anywhere.  You know, because assets.  Share holders literally own a stake in the company.  What asset does BTC have?
> 
> 
> For every big winner, there's hundreds of losers.


likewise in stocks and shares . we have carillion ,or did in the uk(FACT), to prove this ,talk about flogging your opinion as gospel ,are you a preacher on the side because you have done a shit load of chatting with no evident sign of it being an opinion, so you know better then anyone yes , no i doubt it, and the pyramid scam that is stocks and shares has melted many a pension fund(FACT) hence why many do not now trust their pension, admittedly here say and trash talk on my part ,much like all your talk.


----------



## arroyo (Feb 6, 2018)

[TROLL POST] Real screenshot from yesterday, no Photoshop. Any doubts?


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 6, 2018)

I bought a lot more of several coins/tokens over the past couple days. Now I HODLLLL!! Was really hoping XRP would hit .50 which is where I originally purchased it but I still bought more at .61. ETH is also a good buy IMO. 

Also - Stock market is down and I picked up a few stocks I been following.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> likewise in stocks and shares . we have carillion ,or did in the uk(FACT), to prove this ,talk about flogging your opinion as gospel ,are you a preacher on the side because you have done a shit load of chatting with no evident sign of it being an opinion, so you know better then anyone yes , no i doubt it, and the pyramid scam that is stocks and shares has melted many a pension fund(FACT) hence why many do not now trust their pension, admittedly here say and trash talk on my part ,much like all your talk.


Stock market always recovers though because global GDP increases.  There is no guarantee with crypto.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Stock market always recovers though because global GDP increases.  There is no guarantee with crypto.



There is no guarantee in anything...except death. So roll the dice...just be sure you can afford the loss.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm not invested in anything except game shares via Fig and yeah, I can afford to never see a penny off those investments.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Stock market always recovers though because global GDP increases.  There is no guarantee with crypto.


you arent dodgeing my main bullet this time BS ,,,,,Carillion folded, 65000 affected at least since what they were building ,the public required, not all companies recover.

no lifeline for them.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Stock market always recovers though because global GDP increases.  There is no guarantee with crypto.



the stock market is in a bubble.. its way over priced (pumped up by free money) and the so called assets behind it aint worth what the stock markets claim they are.. the wise are getting the hell out of it while they can.. its basically a dead man walking.. 

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> He's also deeply involved with traditional wall-street.
> 
> And for every example, there is a counter example, like the self-made bitcoin billionaires the Winklevoss Twins.
> 
> ...




The only investment worth my money for the long time as a security is gold. All the space age competition heating up, technology needed more than ever in all spectrum of life, and population going over 7 Billion. Investing in the minerals that are mined to make lithium batteries and investing in pure gold are going to pay big dividends 30-50 years from now when I plan to retire. But suit yourself and enjoy your block chain.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 6, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Investing in the minerals that are mined



Especialy the Rare Earth minerals   China is the main Supplier of quite a few ( and is also stockpiling for its industrial future)
many Country's are looking to diversify and find replacement sources for rare Earth minerals

This Industry ( and most Technological industrys) Rely on adaquate supplys of various Rare Earth minerals  there are too few new Sources being found and developed'


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 6, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Especialy the Rare Earth minerals   China is the main Supplier of quite a few ( and is also stockpiling for its industrial future)
> many Country's are looking to diversify and find replacement sources for rare Earth minerals
> 
> This Industry ( and most Technological industrys) Rely on adaquate supplys of various Rare Earth minerals  there are too few new Sources being found and developed'



Yep. and they won't find alternatives imo. I think lithium battery cars are dumb for this very reason. we should be investing 100% into Hydrogen only. I really like Toyota's car designs for Hydrogen so far, they are designed to be impossible to explode in a head on high speed crash as far as I am aware. governments need to come together and push Hydrogen.  in the end Hydrogen is the future... imagine 8 billion people and 6 billion of them buy a new smartphone each year someday... on top of all the lithium cars and other lithium uses...  we should have just skipped this nonsense and gone straight to Hydrogen. new government funded mass production facilities to help get supply stations up and going, etc. tax incentives to companies wanting to open new business ventures, etc.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 6, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> The only investment worth my money for the long time as a security is gold. All the space age competition heating up, technology needed more than ever in all spectrum of life, and population going over 7 Billion. Investing in the minerals that are mined to make lithium batteries and investing in pure gold are going to pay big dividends 30-50 years from now when I plan to retire. But suit yourself and enjoy your block chain.



Right because you can't do both. You MUST only invest in one or the other.....


----------



## jaggerwild (Feb 6, 2018)

Bit coin is being propped up, has been for a long time. I guess the proper finally got tired, took his toys home......Where ever it is at(value) its more then it is worth!


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 6, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> you arent dodgeing my main bullet this time BS ,,,,,Carillion folded, 65000 affected at least since what they were building ,the public required, not all companies recover.


Looks like dumb UK laws to me.  Courts in the USA are supposed to try to settle debts and keep the company afloat to prevent liquidation.  Appears Carillion went straight to liquidation.  Also: people are supposed to diversify their portfolios to prevent holding on to too many bad eggs.  That doesn't work with crypto because they're all weak/lacking structural stability.



trog100 said:


> the stock market is in a bubble.. its way over priced (pumped up by free money) and the so called assets behind it aint worth what the stock markets claim they are.. the wise are getting the hell out of it while they can.. its basically a dead man walking..


It'll shed some, sure, but it will rebound as sure as the sun is to rise.  Aggregate business is good right now.



lynx29 said:


> Yep. and they won't find alternatives imo. I think lithium battery cars are dumb for this very reason. we should be investing 100% into Hydrogen only. I really like Toyota's car designs for Hydrogen so far, they are designed to be impossible to explode in a head on high speed crash as far as I am aware. governments need to come together and push Hydrogen.  in the end Hydrogen is the future... imagine 8 billion people and 6 billion of them buy a new smartphone each year someday... on top of all the lithium cars and other lithium uses...  we should have just skipped this nonsense and gone straight to Hydrogen. new government funded mass production facilities to help get supply stations up and going, etc. tax incentives to companies wanting to open new business ventures, etc.


If the nano-aluminum material pans out, it could mean hydrogen powered cars are ran by filling it up with distilled water.  The military is already playing with a hydrogen powered Colorado GM built.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Also: people are supposed to diversify their portfolios to prevent holding on to too many bad eggs.  That doesn't work with crypto



Only it does.  You just hold something other than crypto.



jaggerwild said:


> Where ever it is at(value) its more then it is worth!



It's worth what people will pay.


----------



## rruff (Feb 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Hint:  Global reach?  Universal store of value?



You can buy anything in the world with pretty much any currency. US$ work great. 

As for the "universal store of value", what the hell are you smokin!? Crypto is unstable as shit. Pretty obvious from looking at the history. Ether is... ether. There is literally nothing there.

Crypto is good for making illegal transactions. That's it.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2018)

rruff said:


> Crypto is good for making illegal transactions. That's it.



Right now.  Because people are all hot and bothered they haven't been able to buy a graphics card for 2 months.  Maybe the current gen aren't the solution.  I don't know.  But just like alternative energy, the technology doesn't grow and blossom until it is used.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2018)

is the hate all about the price of gpus.. based on the principle that folks in general dont give much of a sh-t about things that dont directly concern them i recon it must be.. 

i even started a special thread to let the hate come out without messing up every other crypto thread..

some wise mod closed it down before it started.. he he he..

i give up.. well maybe not but i should do.. 

bitoin is now back up near the 8000 i said it needed to be.. 

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 7, 2018)

arroyo said:


> [TROLL POST] Real screenshot from yesterday, no Photoshop. Any doubts?



Just thought I would throw this in here but my religion may be a little fuzzy so this may be wrong.  I believe 666 was reference to Emperor Nero.  I don't believe the concept of Satan or the Devil was introduced until well after the concept of the mark of the beast was written.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> some wise mod closed it down before it started.. he he he..


Yes and sensible we don't need toxic threads


----------



## Jetster (Feb 7, 2018)

Its not just the GPU prices. Its more about the attitude of shit Im making a ton of money, bragging and stuff like that.  Crypto currency may be the future but right now its a gamble. A big one.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 7, 2018)

TPU would be so much better off if moved crypto to general nonsense or whatever that off topic forum is called. To say crypto discussion here is based around the hardware side of it is a lie


----------



## xorbe (Feb 7, 2018)

cryp*T*o*P*ower*U*p


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 7, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Warehouses aren't really a thing anymore:



 Although it's off topic, I  assure you you're incorrect on this point. But the rest of what you said is 100% accurate, and only a fool would disagree. 

 I worked for one of the largest wholesale grocery providers in the United States for many years in several different capacities, from California ,to Hawaii, to the eastern seaboard ,trust me there's massive warehouses , providing food to grocery stores & other markets. 

Stop n shop
Piggly wiggly
Food lion
D'agostinis
& many more, they are all bought via warehouse holding dry, cold , & freezer storage facilities.  I actually was a buyer at c&s in western Massachusetts for many years ,and my job (along with many others) was to predict the need of the region for items like hotdogs or produce etc.  it's a massive business


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 7, 2018)

I don't really get why people bother burning their multi-gpu rigs on crypto mining. 

Ethereum and the such, practically GPU-only communities, seem hot right now but BCH is already worth more and can be mined by ASIC hardware.

Not saying gpu mining is worthless, it's just that I'd go for ASIC myself.



moproblems99 said:


> Just thought I would throw this in here but my religion may be a little fuzzy so this may be wrong.  I believe 666 was reference to Emperor Nero.  I don't believe the concept of Satan or the Devil was introduced until well after the concept of the mark of the beast was written.


just replying for teh lulz. jk


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 7, 2018)

yesyesloud said:


> just replying for teh lulz. jk



I think I confused the concept of hell here.  Although, I think the reference was most likely still to Nero.



ShiBDiB said:


> TPU would be so much better off if moved crypto to general nonsense or whatever that off topic forum is called. To lie and say crypto discussion here is based around the hardware side of it is a lie



There are plenty of threads concerning modifying BIOSs and such but I am sure there are many that probably belong there.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

rruff said:


> You can buy anything in the world with pretty much any currency. US$ work great.



The rub is when you try to send money across borders to individuals cheaply.  No conventional currency works very well for this.

That's what I meant by "universal store of value."  I said nothing about stability intentionally because it is a money in money out use case.



ShiBDiB said:


> To lie and say crypto discussion here is based around the hardware side of it is a lie



Uh, no it's not.  Crypto and hardware are intertwined to the core.



yesyesloud said:


> Not saying gpu mining is worthless, it's just that I'd go for ASIC myself.



I lost a lot of money on ASICS.  They depreciate too fast for ROI.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> I worked for one of the largest wholesale grocery providers in the United States for many years in several different capacities, from California ,to Hawaii, to the eastern seaboard ,trust me there's massive warehouses , providing food to grocery stores & other markets.


That's a distributor, not a warehouse.  Turnaround time at distributors is often less than a month--they have a revolving inventory.  Warehouses often sit on products for 6+ months.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's a distributor, not a warehouse.  Turnaround time at distributors is often less than a month--they have a revolving inventory.  Warehouses often sit on products for 6+ months.



the trucks are the warehouses.. its called just in  time delivery.. stuff is permanent in transit.. it arrives gets sold the same day and more arrives tomorrow.. its supposed to be cheaper than warehousing stock or so they say..

obviously there has to be distribution points but they are not warehouses as such.. it costs money to store stuff so it dosnt get stored in normal circumstances.. its always on the move..

trog


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 7, 2018)

So what is it at right now? Where are my cheap 1080Tis?   /s


----------



## xorbe (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> obviously there has to be distribution points but they are not warehouses as such.. it costs money to store stuff so it dosnt get stored in normal circumstances.. its always on the move..trog



I rode my bike through Patterson, CA and there is a huuuge AMZN warehouse.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4705271,-121.168508,1714m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> So what is it at right now? Where are my cheap 1080Tis?   /s



Bouncing back to 8000 or so last I looked.  No cheap cards immediately as mining has still been profitable this whole time.  It will taper off new guys getting in, however.



trog100 said:


> i even started a special thread to let the hate come out without messing up every other crypto thread..
> 
> some wise mod closed it down before it started.. he he he..



I saw that.  Was thinking of doing that myself.  Now I'm afraid, lol.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 7, 2018)

xorbe said:


> I rode my bike through Patterson, CA and there is a huuuge AMZN warehouse.
> https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4705271,-121.168508,1714m/data=!3m1!1e3


It's a "fulfillment center."  Retailers (like Amazon, Wal-Mart, etc.) are the closest things to warehouses these days.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 7, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> TPU would be so much better off if moved crypto to general nonsense or whatever that off topic forum is called. To lie and say crypto discussion here is based around the hardware side of it is a lie



Agreed


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

yes its basically a distribution center.. they have to post the bloody stuff from somewhere.. he he

but stock is kept to a minimum.. computers keep track of stock levels and only order just enough stuff to keep the just in time system going.. most of it is in the trucks and in transit.. he he

its a fragile system  and it would not take much to f-ck it up.. a bit like living from hand to mouth with f-ck all spare in the fridge.. 

if it ever breaks there would be hell to pay.. he he..

trog


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 7, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's a distributor, not a warehouse. Turnaround time at distributors is often less than a month--they have a revolving inventory. Warehouses often sit on products for 6+ months.



right, but we're speaking Grocery...(admittedly off topic) but aside from 5% of business, NO item a grocery store sells sits Anywhere for 6+months. Some items we housed in dry goods warehouses sat for long periods, (wreaths, decorations, seasonals, etc) but anything grocery moves fast all the time, even frozen. This is the way it has been since Flash freezing, and canning was introduced.

 



trog100 said:


> it costs money to store stuff so it dosnt get stored in normal circumstances.. its always on the move..


we housed for up to a month (give or take & item dependant), but as i mentioned to Ford, the business of Grocery means it MUST move or be disposed of, but items are stocked fast in bulk, selectors on pallet jacks hand "pick" orders made to fit each respective chain, which are shrink wrapped, and loaded onto trucks to head to their end points. the "warehousing" is technically what is happening, but its essentially a larger scale of what Your fridge at home is.....it sits there until consumption.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> Agreed



it would be much better if all the silly haters kept out of crypto threads.. all most of them are doing is trolling.. its time the mods did something about the situation..

i dont mind genuine intelligent anti crypto comment.. but there aint much of that.. just continuous one liner mindless trolling.. 

trog


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> it would be much better if all the silly haters kept out of crypto threads.. all most of them are doing is trolling.. its time the mods did something about the situation..
> 
> i dont mind genuine intelligent anti crypto comment.. but there aint much of that.. just continuous one liner mindless trolling..
> 
> trog



im not really anti crypto. im just not appreciative of what its community has done to the market. i respect your opinion on the matter, TPU was here before Mining, and will be after, i just hope the latter comes sooner than later.

also, the whole "crypto" thread trend, seems more financially driven than tech driven, IMHO its off site topic, and out of place here when that direction is the predominant focus.
(im certainly the last person to claim "on topic" driven, as im a clown who jokes 95% of the time, it just seems like a LOT of crypto related conversation would better be suited in a different location. but what do i know....just one guys opinion.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> also, the whole "crypto" thread trend, seems more financially driven than tech driven



It's still tech.  Without the tech, there is no money.

At any rate, TPU used to be a bios modding mecca.  This has made it relevant in the crypto scene which is big into bios modding.  So in a way, it is only catering to the same audience it always has, and the membership hasn't changed at all, they've just gone to each others throats.

Honestly, the offtopic part is the philosophical debate about crypto.  It's political in nature, and should be in the lounge like all politcal things.  The tech?  The tech can stay.  Crtisize and/or praise a coin or talk investment strategy?  Lounge.  We only talk the tech stuff here.

That's what I want.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It's still tech.  Without the tech, there is no money.
> 
> At any rate, TPU used to be a bios modding mecca.  This has made it relevant in the crypto scene which is big into bios modding.  So in a way, it is only catering to the same audience it always has, and the membership hasn't changed at all, they've just gone to each others throats.
> 
> ...



I can't say what is or isn't right or wrong, or out of place, I lack the patience, the will to "type-argue" my point, & its not my place to say what should or shouldnt be, but ill end with this, as its the core of my point.

This mining fad has brought the worst out in people (miners and non miners). I have always seen TPU as a place for those who love PC, not becasue it earns them money, but becasue they enjoy it. A place where members help others with issues they need help with, offer support, or an extra component when others are in need.....i feel that mentality is being stripped away with this mining craze...im not saying mining is causing this, im just saying what i feel ive noticed.

i wish you all the best.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> This mining fad has brought the worst out in people (miners and non miners). I have always seen TPU as a place for those who love PC, not becasue it earns them money, but becasue they enjoy it. A place where members help others with issues they need help with, offer support, or an extra component when others are in need.....i feel that mentality is being stripped away with this mining craze...im not saying mining is causing this, im just saying what i feel ive noticed.



This.  And you are correct in that mining is not causing this, human nature is causing it.


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 7, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> So what is it at right now? Where are my cheap 1080Tis?   /s


Probably being RMAed, refurbished and then shipped out to different poor bastards who also tried to RMA their brand new but secretly refurbished 1080Tis 

I only got a properly working 1080Ti - meaning suitable for gaming/not artifacting - after selling my Nvidia-branded FE unit and "upgrading" to a Gigabyte Gaming OC.



R-T-B said:


> Crypto and hardware are intertwined to the core.
> I lost a lot of money on ASICS.  They depreciate too fast for ROI.


ASICs may depreciate at a certain rate but GPUs aren't aging like fine wine either (at least when it comes to mining).

The Antminer S9 is doing better at BTC/BCH mining than any 10x more expensive multi-gpu setup would do right now. I'm aware that ASICs turn into garbage within 2-3 years from their release dates while abused GPUs can still be sold for a decent amount, but I can't say money is actually wasted when you do the math beforehand, within a reasonable margin.

As for the increasing greed mumbo jumbo cryptocurrencies brought up lately, sure, it's pretty annoying. Regardless, there's also a very interesting, complex technical side to it.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

yesyesloud said:


> ASICs may depreciate at a certain rate but GPUs aren't aging like fine wine either (at least when it comes to mining).



I don't know, ASICs tend to have back to back releases at trickle-down new nodes, we're talking like 3 months to obsolescence.  They just aren't a good way to make money.

This was 2013 though.  Maybe it's changed since nodes stopped jumping around.


----------



## RCoon (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> its time the mods did something about the situation


Asking members of TPU to stop overly preaching/complaining (yes, they're as bad as each other) is like leaving a bucket of skittles in a preschool and asking the children not to eat any.

I actively monitor the Crypto subsection daily, every fifteen minutes, more than I do for any other part of the site, to try to ensure things don't get out of hand. It is a very fine line to police.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

RCoon said:


> Asking members of TPU to stop overly preaching/complaining (yes, they're as bad as each other) is like leaving a bucket of skittles in a preschool and asking the children not to eat any.
> 
> I actively monitor the Crypto subsection daily, every fifteen minutes, more than I do for any other part of the site, to try to ensure things don't get out of hand. It is a very fine line to police.



Ick.  I don't envy you.


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know, ASICs tend to have back to back releases at trickle-down new nodes, we're talking like 3 months to obsolescence.  They just aren't a good way to make money.
> 
> This was 2013 though.  Maybe it's changed since nodes stopped jumping around.


People are still using the Antminer S7 (released in 2015) in several profitable areas. I'm afraid it turned out to be a good way to make money.

ASIC is likely the only way to mine BTC/BCH properly nowadays as it's literally millions of times more efficient than GPUs in this particular task. Just compare MH/s with TH/s, basically the difference between recent GPUs and recent ASICs. Also good for other BTC-like cryptocurrencies (SHA-265 derived favoring raw processing power over RAM amount and frequency).

Things seem to have changed a bit since 2013.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

yesyesloud said:


> People are still using the Antminer S7 (released in 2015) in several profitable areas. I'm afraid ASIC turned out to be a good way to make money.
> 
> ASIC is likely the only way to mine BTC/BCH properly nowadays as it's literally millions of times more efficient than GPUs in this particular task. Just compare MH/s with TH/s, basically the difference between recent GPUs and recent ASICs. Also good for other BTC-like cryptocurrencies (SHA-265 derived favoring raw processing power over RAM amount and frequency).
> 
> Things seem to have changed a bit since 2013.



I was dealing with litecoin (scrypt) ASICs too, no idea how that mixes things up...


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I was dealing with litecoin (scrypt) ASICs too, no idea how that mixes things up...


I can definitely see why the hardware restriction (non-ASIC-only) is important for most altcoin communities. Keeping ASIC slightly less ahead of the game (through different algorithms and/or automated gear clearance) is a good idea since many btc "farmers" own hundreds when not thousands of units.

So... For most things non-BTC, GPUs may remain great... And better.

Not sure some ASICs can't yield profitable amounts of LTC though as bitmain accepts offers in such currency


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know, ASICs tend to have back to back releases at trickle-down new nodes, we're talking like 3 months to obsolescence.  They just aren't a good way to make money.
> 
> This was 2013 though.  Maybe it's changed since nodes stopped jumping around.



i read something yesterday stating that the large  ASIC miners are hurting.. with prices down down around the 8000/9000 level they are not in profit.. they need over 12000/13000 to be in profit..


trog


----------



## Mindweaver (Feb 7, 2018)

RCoon said:


> Asking members of TPU to stop overly preaching/complaining (yes, they're as bad as each other) is like leaving a bucket of skittles in a preschool and asking the children not to eat any.
> 
> I actively monitor the Crypto subsection daily, every fifteen minutes, more than I do for any other part of the site, to try to ensure things don't get out of hand. It is a very fine line to police.


Yea, I'm finding myself watching "these" threads a lot lately as well. They can turn sour quick. I rarely join in, because I know little to nothing about it, but I do find it interesting and have enjoyed the informative posts by the actual miners. I can say without a doubt that when I started monitoring these threads I was very much against mining, but I understand it more now, and feel more neutral about the subject. I can't say I'll ever be a "miner", but I can understand the interest after reading these threads and also being apart of WCG.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 7, 2018)

Mindweaver said:


> Yea, I'm finding myself watching "these" threads a lot lately as well. They can turn sour quick. I rarely join in, because I know little to nothing about it, but I do find it interesting and have enjoyed the informative posts by the actual miners. I can say without a doubt that when I started monitoring these threads I was very much against mining, but I understand it more now, and feel more neutral about the subject. I can't say I'll ever be a "miner", but I can understand the interest after reading these threads and also being apart of WCG.



As a staff member has their been any talk of moving crypto to general nonsense or whatever that new forum section is called?


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 7, 2018)

On the whole i think the Crypto sub forum is fine and appropriate where it is
some threads could and should be moved to the lounge where they are better suited (this one for example)
there are quite a few posts made in the Video card section that in my opinion should be in the crypto forum
mainly flashing in regards to mining.
Those i understand would be difficult to assign to any perticular forum section as they can be covered in both forums guess those mods would have to debate this (is it a problem? )


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 7, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> This.  And you are correct in that mining is not causing this, human nature is causing it.


Except.....TPU members have never sided up this angrily or viciously, not even in the most fervent Nvidia vs AMD spats.  This is deeper.  Mining may not be the cause, but it is the facilitator. 

To make a fire, you must have a spark, and in this case it is cards being hoarded in large numbers. 

I'm not saying this from an anger position, but as an observer, since I don't need a card right now.  Many do though.

One interesting thing, it seems like a lot of 970's and 980's are finding new homes in the used market.  Thankfully most even recent games still can run well on those at 1440 and below.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> As a staff member has their been any talk of moving crypto to general nonsense or whatever that new forum section is called?



Frankly, the fact that the w1zzard is eagerly awaiting my next crypto article has me leaning towards "no."

The best you can hope for is a ban on discussing the politics of it...  frankly I feel one is overdue.  TPU has never been a place for politics.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 7, 2018)

Obviously, discussion of the topic really is moot unless it is from a strictly tech perspective.  No one discussing in forums is going to change this in either direction.  

Only the market will decide.


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i read something yesterday stating that the large  ASIC miners are hurting.. with prices down down around the 8000/9000 level they are not in profit.. they need over 12000/13000 to be in profit..


Considering that most bitcoin farms started several years ago, they lost plenty of net value the same way they gained it in the long run.

BTC took a _yooge _hit  but the major mines were already geared up with the most up-to-date hardware a year or so before the great bubble. From a technical perspective, they can't be losing money due to operating costs, for instance. All in all, they're still mining with _the best_, most power efficient hardware.

Also, we can't guess how much they converted into actual money/investments likely helping pop the bubble themselves cuz, say, fright. It's fun to watch the implosion though


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Frankly, the fact that the w1zzard is eagerly awaiting my next crypto article has me leaning towards "no."
> 
> The best you can hope for is a ban on discussing the politics of it...  frankly I feel one is overdue.  TPU has never been a place for politics.



This is why I prefer and spend most of my time at Overclock.net no politics allowed, and crypto discussion is pretty limited as well, its only for those of us who enjoy PC hardware, tech news, gaming, science news, etc. none of this nonsense, which is just the way I like it. I only come here from time to time to TPU because I like the reviews of hardware better here.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Ick.  I don't envy you.


Me neither


----------



## ShiBDiB (Feb 7, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> This is why I prefer and spend most of my time at Overclock.net no politics allowed, and crypto discussion is pretty limited as well, its only for those of us who enjoy PC hardware, tech news, gaming, science news, etc. none of this nonsense, which is just the way I like it. I only come here from time to time to TPU because I like the reviews of hardware better here.



TPU used to be great, probably the best overall forum with great articles... now the articles are still good but the forum is shit.


----------



## Mindweaver (Feb 7, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> As a staff member has their been any talk of moving crypto to general nonsense or whatever that new forum section is called?


No, IMO I feel it's to relevant to hardware and even software to a lesser degree. It maybe hard to believe, but there are sections I don't care for, and I stay out of them, other than moderating. 

Plus, GN is mainly for non tech related stuff and mining is very much tech related no matter how you spin it.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> TPU used to be great, probably the best overall forum with great articles... now the articles are still good but the forum is shit.



I still think the forum and community are great...  We just need to tackle this.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I still think the forum and community are great...  We just need to tackle this.



its pretty easy to tackle.. people that troll the crypto section purely because they hate crypto for whatever reason need to be seen as the bad guys.. if they have something usefull to say.. say it by all means but this one liner trolling needs to stop.. trolling is bad dont f-cking do it.. if mods cant handle that maybe they need to change their thinking..

currently the trolls are simply being allowed to continue without censure of any kind.. this is whats wrong..

they dont have to come to this section.. and they certainly should not come just to troll..

the trolls are the bad guys but if i tell one to f-ck off its me that would be censured.. so in that sense the trolls are being protected.. i can handle trolls okay but not when mods are protecting the f-ckers..

rant over..

trog


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 7, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> im not really anti crypto. im just not appreciative of what its community has done to the market. i respect your opinion on the matter, TPU was here before Mining, and will be after, i just hope the latter comes sooner than later.
> 
> also, the whole "crypto" thread trend, seems more financially driven than tech driven, IMHO its off site topic, and out of place here when that direction is the predominant focus.
> (im certainly the last person to claim "on topic" driven, as im a clown who jokes 95% of the time, it just seems like a LOT of crypto related conversation would better be suited in a different location. but what do i know....just one guys opinion.



I can see your point. However a lot of techies are into crypto. The entire infrastructure, back-end and mining are awesome tech. The financial end is pretty much unavoidable though as it is a direct relation to the techs success.



ShiBDiB said:


> As a staff member has their been any talk of moving crypto to general nonsense or whatever that new forum section is called?



Dood if you don't like it...don't participate..wow. You need a mod to censor threads for you when you can CHOOSE not to participate?


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 7, 2018)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> I can see your point. However a lot of techies are into crypto. The entire infrastructure, back-end and mining are awesome tech. The financial end is pretty much unavoidable though as it is a direct relation to the techs success.
> 
> 
> 
> Dood if you don't like it...don't participate..wow. You need a mod to censor threads for you when you can CHOOSE not to participate?


some are very much in this category I got into it due to an already abundant ish access to gpus due to folding at home ,its always a hobby not a life choice and personally i am keeping it fairly calm on the mining front (8s enough for me) but it is 100% mostly the messing with the tech i enjoy and do it for ,the rests a bit murky but sufferable to me.


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 7, 2018)

Hey, I was looking for some decent ASIC and came across this:

GMO Internet’s Cryptocurrency Mining Business Develops 12 nm FFC Process Technology for Semiconductor Chips: Progressing towards realizing a cutting-edge 7 nm process technology for mining chips (referrer: https://mining.gmo.jp/en/)

The hashrate leap will reach new heights. If it's also aimed at altcoins (kinda doubt it), we'll behold something entirely new. Perhaps we're on the verge of another bubble


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 7, 2018)

Doubt it.  The bubble was created by investors, not miners.  If there's no profit in mining though, miners will leave too.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 7, 2018)

ShiBDiB said:


> TPU used to be great, probably the best overall forum with great articles... now the articles are still good but the forum is shit.


 
Yep, the problem is there is no moderation on TPU. OCN annoys me sometimes with how strict it is in not cussing, no politics of any kind, etc and so on and so forth, but at the end of the day it really does keep the focus on what we are all originally there for to begin with hobby wise.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Doubt it.  The bubble was created by investors, not miners.  If there's no profit in mining though, miners will leave too.



I disagree with you on this one, a lot of the big miners in China are practically stealing electricity for free (some even have massive ASIC miners hidden in river mountain cave areas, I have seen pics). Even for those that do pay electricity and lose out, lot of big time miners still have an almost cult like religious fervor that Bitcoin is the future and they are willing to die for it, and they will, I have no doubt in my mind, keep their massive mining operations up and going at a loss all for the sake of "hope" that it will win out in the end.

Honestly there will be no way to prove them wrong, Bitcoin will exist whether it's $1 or $1 million per coin, it will exist, its just... a disillusion I think some people have. The funny thing about the vast majority of humans, is that they live paycheck to paycheck, no one can afford to invest in securities (mass populations I am referring to), and those of us with very high IQ's know that long term investment is still gold since gold actually has scientific properties and will be needed always. The world existed without the block chain and still does, so the world wants it, but doesn't need it. Risk /Reward ratios are much higher when want is the key word and not need.

I still stick with my original criticism of Bitcoin, even though I said a few posts back I knew it would rise again in price, it most likely is big big spenders doing the buying to trick the masses, its no different than corrupt companies doing insider trading at this point, but Bitcoin doesn't have the SEC eyeing it, thats why Bitcoin is still rising. Until the true believers of Bitcoin realize they are being played, they will just keep HODL'in night and day, waiting for that magic 500k moment John Mcfee promised.


----------



## erocker (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I was speaking to TPU as a whole.  It's gotten bad here as of late.  Your quote was mostly coincidental.  I just want to see the glee at misfortune stop.


Well.. When the discussion of something that is tanking the hobby that we're mostly here for, people aren't going to act great. As a matter of fact, I don't see how this discussion helps anything here. It's bickering and garbage.


lynx29 said:


> there is no moderation on TPU


What do you mean? We respond to when the community reports something. I guess if you're unsatisfied, you failed on that part. I can only hope TPU never becomes the overzealous pit that is OCN.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 7, 2018)

erocker said:


> Well.. When the discussion of something that is tanking the hobby that we're mostly here for, people aren't going to act great. As a matter of fact, I don't *see how this discussion helps anything here. It's bickering and garbage.*
> 
> What do you mean? We respond to when the community reports something. I guess if you're unsatisfied, you failed on that part. I can only hope TPU never becomes the overzealous pit that is OCN.




No no mate, I was referring to cussing, I mean heck the guy I quoted and supported literally just cussed in the quote I was quoting. It is allowed here. I am saying maybe there is something subconcious related to having a strict forum rule set that keeps people focused, both forums are similar in a lot of ways. If I have a tech question I ask it and I get an answer, but any forum is going to have its share of zealot types. I was on GameFaqs for ten years before I discovered TPU lol oh boy let me tell you what an upgrade... I have made more friends on OCN though, thats why I favor it I think, not sure.

I highlighted in bold - a moderator seeing a topic that makes said moderator feel this way would just lock the thread and force the community to delve their energy elsewhere... maybe this has measurable repercussions for any community like this?


----------



## Mindweaver (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> its pretty easy to tackle.. people that troll the crypto section purely because they hate crypto for whatever reason need to be seen as the bad guys.. if they have something usefull to say.. say it by all means but this one liner trolling needs to stop.. trolling is bad dont f-cking do it.. if *mods cant handle* that maybe they need to change their thinking..
> 
> currently the trolls are simply being allowed to continue without censure of any kind.. this is whats wrong..
> 
> ...


I haven't seen any reported post over these "trolls". This is not my section, but I do try to help out in sections that are not mine. Plus, you can't just tell members to "f-ck off" without someone reporting you. In the future report them, and not try to take things into your own hands. Remember the first rule of TPU is that there are n.. Wait.. yea no.. there is a major rule, and that is you can't tell people to "f-ck off". Remember "trolls" feed off the tears of mad forum members.  Report them don't feed them.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 7, 2018)

erocker said:


> Well.. When the discussion of something that is tanking the hobby that we're mostly here for, people aren't going to act great. As a matter of fact, I don't see how this discussion helps anything here. It's bickering and garbage.


Thank you...
You use words better than I.... Lol

It's only a matter of time before mining as we know it ends and I seriously hope that when that time comes there is still enough of a customer base left to sustain the market for such things...
I know 4 people personally that have given up and moved in to consoles only and one more waiting for GeForce Now...
I'm literally the only person I know of in real life that is still waiting for this BS to end... I will give till September and if market conditions are the same I'm out to.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

Mindweaver said:


> I haven't seen any reported post over these "trolls". This is not my section, but I do try to help out in sections that are not mine. Plus, you can't just tell members to "f-ck off" without someone reporting you. In the future report them, and not try to take things into your own hands. Remember the first rule of TPU is that there are n.. Wait.. yea no.. there is a major rule, and that is you can't tell people to "f-ck off". Remember "trolls" feed off the tears of mad forum members.  Report them don't feed them.



a left over habit from my school days.. i dont snitch or anonymously report  anybody.. in fact i think its low life deplorably tool of repression.. he he

i aint angry i am simply making comment.. i also know what trolling is i just dont like them being protected simply because they are forum members..

in fact it not being allowed to call them for what they that niggles me the most.. 

i still recon my special thread for crypto haters was a good idea.. they could go in there and rant to their hearts content.. closing it was a short sighted move.. 

trog


----------



## Mindweaver (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> a left over habit from my school days.. i dont snitch or anonymously report  anybody.. in fact i think its low life deplorably tool of repression.. he he
> 
> i aint angry i am simply making comment.. i also know what trolling is i just dont like them being protected simply because that are forum members..
> 
> ...


Ok, remember the report button is there for you, buddy. Don't feel like it's snitching, but rather a tool to help us keep our forums going in a positive direction.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 7, 2018)

Mindweaver said:


> Ok, remember the report button is there for you, buddy. Don't feel like it's snitching, but rather a tool to help us keep our forums going in a positive direction.



thats what all fascist dictatorships say.. only joking but maybe not..  i will remember the control tool is there even if my ethics wont let me use it.. he he

best of luck..

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i will remember the control tool is there even if my ethics wont let me use it.. he he


Sorry Trogg but if you wont use the Button to help the mods maintain some semblence of Order then you are "part of the Problem"


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 7, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Nah man , didn't you hear, crypto is definitely the future. Who needs stability.



I imagined you typed this statement with a smug face assuming it makes you look smart, right?

Do you realize your sarcastic remark is _actually_ correct?   This market doesn't "need" to be stable yet, and it _is_ the future...



jmcslob said:


> Thank you...
> You use words better than I.... Lol
> 
> It's only a matter of time before mining as we know it ends and I seriously hope that when that time comes there is still enough of a customer base left to sustain the market for such things...
> ...



No offense - but cry me a river.   Nvidia has been trying to jack up the prices this high for about 10 years now, and finally they will have the leverage to permanently do so.   Mining's affect on prices _will_ lessen over time, but the prices will never be where they used to be in the "PC Renaissance Era of 2010-2016."  To be clear I am really not trying to be a jerk, I am just saying that we need to get used to the idea of Gaming Titan's costing $2000, and RX x80 and GTX xx60 gpu's costing $400.  

It was never reasonable to expect AMD/Nvidia to sell professional cards for $5000 while their gaming counterparts are $650, and it was only a matter of time before some program monetized the latent processing power in gaming computers.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 7, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> I imagined you typed this statement with a smug face assuming it makes you look smart, right?



More like amused rather than smug.



Captain_Tom said:


> This market doesn't "need" to be stable yet, and it _is_ the future...



Pretty bold statement and exactly zero arguments to back it up as usual when it comes down to this matter. Not that I really need any to be honest , I don't really care , I'm just here to watch the true shitshow that crypto will inevitably ignite.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 7, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> More like amused rather than smug.
> 
> Pretty bold statement and *exactly zero arguments* to back it up as usual when it comes down to this matter. Not that I really need any to be honest , I don't really care , I'm just here to watch the true shitshow that crypto will inevitably ignite.



Right back at you buddy - Please enlighten me on the arguments you have to back up _your _statement.  


I am not being facetious, please let me know why you think it's silly to suggest cryptocurrencies could be a large part of the world's future.  Because all I am seeing is some guy who thinks Bitcoin is too volatile, even though it is becoming less volatile over time.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 7, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> Please enlighten me on the arguments you have to back up _your _statement.



That's the thing , I don't need to. I can easily place my distrust in it and not have to argue about it because it is yet to become as widespread , and therefore , as relevant as traditional currency is. 

Crypto has been around for almost a decade and that still hasn't changed , if it really was the future we already missed it.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Crypto has been around for almost a decade and that still hasn't changed , if it really was the future we already missed it.



I have a feeling the first coins took more than 10 years to take off...


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 8, 2018)

trog100 said:


> thats what all fascist dictatorships say.. only joking but maybe not..  i will remember the control tool is there even if my ethics wont let me use it.. he he
> 
> best of luck..
> 
> trog


So, basically, you complain mods don't see everything, yet you don't point them in the right direction. They cannot be everywhere at once....remember, they have lives also.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> I am not being facetious, please let me know why you think it's silly to suggest cryptocurrencies could be a large part of the world's future.


1) Inefficient.
2) Insecure.
3) Inflexible.
4) Has no intrinsict value and can't be enforcibly tied to anything that does.

There might be _something_ important based on blockchain down the road but everything we see today isn't it.


----------



## Vario (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> I imagined you typed this statement with a smug face assuming it makes you look smart, right?
> 
> Do you realize your sarcastic remark is _actually_ correct?   This market doesn't "need" to be stable yet, and it _is_ the future...
> 
> ...



If this is the case, the desktop PC game is over.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 8, 2018)

Vario said:


> If this is the case, the desktop PC game is over.



Nah we will swallow it.  Everyone said the OG Titan was stupid, and yet Nvidia couldn't even keep it in stock!   Even at $1200 it continues to sell (And it will at $1500 - $2000 too).

The 2050 Ti will be stronger than the 1060, and therefore people will swallow paying $200 for it.  What's the alternative?


Hopefully Navi will change this, but idk why AMD would sell their product for too much less than they have to.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 1) Inefficient.
> 2) Insecure.
> 3) Inflexible.
> 4) Has no intrinsict value and can't be enforcibly tied to anything that does.



Excellent points for why fiat is doomed


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Fiat is...
1) systematically it is inefficient (employs a _lot_ of people because of it) but in terms of transactions it is very efficient.  Money is exchanging hands thousands of times a second and there's no perceived slowdown.  The system is designed to handle massive load it does so rarely missing a beat.
2) Every dollar is serialized, every bank needs to balance their books on a daily basis, and every transaction can be rescinded if the conditions are right.  It's really only insecure in terms of theft in cash form but if you practice due diligence and report which serial numbers were specifically stolen, the fed can potentially use that to catch the thief and return them.  Most people don't because they like the freedom and anonymity of cash.  Counterfeit currency also has heavy, criminal penalties.
3) The fed creates and removes legal tender supply to keep the currency stable.  That kind of responsiveness is impossible with cryptocurrency in its present form.
4) All fiat currencies are tied to their respective economies which include a plethora of assets.


RE: These prices being the new norm.  58% of NVIDIA's profits came from the sell of consumer GPUs.  You're forgetting supply vs demand curves: the higher the price, the less demand, even with all these miners in the market.  FYI, GTX 1060 only costs like $80 (if not less) for NVIDIA to build.  If they get away with those kinds of prices, they're laughing their way to the bank.  Then regulators knock on their door for price fixing.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 8, 2018)

ford how is every dollar serialized when most of it is digital and never gets handled or seen by its users... how do you serialize digits on a computer.. i am not sure of the exact figures but i think no more than 25% of so called cash comes come in paper form..

i rarely use cash notes they are a fraction of one percent of what i spend.. in fact i havnt spent any cash money notes or coins for several months.. in some ways its just as "ethereal" as crypto and its also only worth what people think its worth.. as for legal tender.. all it really means is that folks have to accept it if offered.. it dosnt mean anything else..

they dont have to accept plastic which thinking about it means most of us are spending something that isnt legal tender.. he he

as for graphics cards folk used to think one was worth lets say 400 dollars now they think one is worth double that.. and if you really want to buy one they are.. a dollar buys what it buys and for sure what it buys aint fixed in stone.. 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

trog100 said:


> ford how is every dollar serialized when most of it is digital and never gets handled or seen by its users... how do you serialize digits on a computer.. i am not sure of the exact figures but i think no more than 25% of so called cash comes come in paper form..


Most digital transactions are handled by the FedACH.  The fed itself acts as an intermediary between debtor and creditor.  If you use credit or debit cards, the card issuer (Vista, MasterCard, Discovery, American Express, etc.) acts as intermediary.  It's always digitized or exchanged for cash at banks/credit unions and they audit daily.  If there's any discrepancies, the fed seizes the bank Saturday night cataloging all assets, accounts, and even rekeying the locks.

Remember, banking is a service industry.  If something is amiss, you always have someone to talk to.  Someone steals your crypto-wallet? Too bad, so sad.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Fiat is...
> 1) systematically it is inefficient but in terms of transactions it is very efficient.  Money is exchanging hands thousands of times a second and there's no perceived slowdown.  The system is designed to handle massive load it does so rarely missing a beat.
> 2) Every dollar is serialized, every bank needs to balance their books on a daily basis, and every transaction can be rescinded if the conditions are right.  It's really only in secure in terms of theft in cash form but if you practice due diligence and report which serial numbers were specifically stolen, the fed can potentially use that to catch the thief and return them.  Most people don't because they like the freedom and anonymity of cash.  Counterfeit currency also has heavy, criminal penalties.
> 3) The fed creates and removes legal tender supply to keep the currency stable.  That kind of responsiveness is impossible with cryptocurrency in its present form.
> ...



So I will respond to you in two parts, the first being your crypto points:

1) What you are describing is growing pains.  Bitcoins recent hike in transaction costs is directly comparible to people complaining about a mall having too little parking space: Business is going TOO well.   

What you don't seem to get is that these scaling issues are incredibly solvable.  Pascal already does 100 transactions per second (It has a TINY marketcap for how much more efficient it is than Bitcoin), DASH already has a roadmap outlining how it will scale all the way to the point of handling infinite transactions (it's already instant for the volume it currently handles), and Bitcoin itself is preparing a lightning network that will likely be rolled out within a year.

Oh, and those are just the ones _I _am watching.  I am sure there are others that look promising as well.   But maybe you agree with this guy:

https://thenextweb.com/shareables/2010/02/27/newsweek-1995-buy-books-newspapers-straight-intenet-uh/

2) Bitcoin is immutable, not anonymous.  Did you watch the recent governmental hearing on Cryptocurrencies?  One of the people in the discussion (correctly) pointed out that Bitcoin would have allowed the government to crack down on banks' illegal dealings and speculating FAR easier if they had a Bitcoin-like blockchain to monitor.  He literally said "We could have avoided the 2008 financial crisis."  He is correct.

But if you like anonymity, Monero and DASH are there.   If you want the backing of an institution - Credit cards and debit cards can (and some already do) be tethered to a token's blockchain instead of an inefficient and exploitable centralized banking server. 

3) How is this a good or ok thing?  I thought you didn't like that Bitcoin is "worthless" money.  Oh but it's ok for _these_ people to make money out of thin air?  Well I disagree lol.

4) False.  Period.  It's just as "Made up" as any cryptocurrency.  The gold standard is dead.


As for GPU prices:

LOL your own argument works against you on this one.  They are already making insane profits _NOW, _on each gpu sold.  It's already hilarious!   Why stop?  People will KEEP buying their s*^t.

It's pretty clear that 70% of the market will only buy Nvidia as long as they have good marketing.  Their mindshare is just too powerful.   Consider the one time AMD managed to have a larger marketshare than Nvidia (by a measly 5%).... and it was when they had a product that was around 3x better (not a random number).  That's not something AMD can do often, and so they have (recently) decided to just offer better price/perf and keep their 30% of the desktop market.  Consoles will adopt them anyways.

Now we will probably have to agree to disagree on this, but I CERTAINLY hope you are right.  But I don't see why Nvidia wouldn't raise prices when Radeon has basically declared they won't be trying for at least a year.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> 1) What you are describing is growing pains.  Bitcoins recent hike in transaction costs is directly comparible to people complaining about a mall having too little parking space: Business is going TOO well.
> 
> What you don't seem to get is that these scaling issues are incredibly solvable.  Pascal already does 100 transactions per second (It has a TINY marketcap for how much more efficient it is than Bitcoin), DASH already has a roadmap outlining how it will scale all the way to the point of handling infinite transactions (it's already instant for the volume it currently handles), and Bitcoin itself is preparing a lightning network that will likely be rolled out within a year.
> 
> ...


Uh huh.  Try posting a transaction with crypto when there is no internet service.  The entire financial system is designed to revert back to paper ledgers if they have to.  Transactions occur slower but they still happen.  The inefficiencies are fundamentally because of that fact: everything is localized until the transaction is posted.  It's redundancy.



Captain_Tom said:


> 2) Bitcoin is immutable, not anonymous.  Did you watch the recent governmental hearing on Cryptocurrencies?  One of the people in the discussion (correctly) pointed out that Bitcoin would have allowed the government to crack down on banks' illegal dealings and speculating FAR easier if they had a Bitcoin-like blockchain to monitor.  He literally said "We could have avoided the 2008 financial crisis."  He is correct.
> 
> But if you like anonymity, Monero and DASH are there.   If you want the backing of an institution - Credit cards and debit cards can (and some already do) be tethered to a token's blockchain instead of an inefficient and exploitable centralized banking server.


Lehman-Bros collapsed because of an internal audit that discovered they owed far more money than they possessed due to a vast number of mortgages being underwater.  No currency system can fix that.  The problem was and is that regulators saw the problem and decided to look the other way.

Name one exploit for the "centralized banking server."  Hint: never happened.  Why? Banks exist by the authority of the fed.  If they step out of the line, it's game over for them.




Captain_Tom said:


> 3) How is this a good or ok thing?  I thought you didn't like that Bitcoin is "worthless" money.  Oh but it's ok for _these_ people to make money out of thin air?  Well I disagree lol.


Because dollars have this thing called "purchasing power" which is calculated annually by BLS and summarized by the "cost of living" standard.  These are things like how much a loaf of bread costs or how much rent costs year over year.  A lot of years, it's <1% difference.  Sometimes it's 1-2%.  The reason for this is the fed stabilizing the currency.  When the economy is strong, more money is pumped into the economy to stop the cost of living rising (every dollar is made to be worth about the same).  When the economy is weak, it removes money so that $700 paycheck you got doesn't go completely towards a single loaf of bread.  You can't buy dollars and sit on them hoping to make a lot of money because the dollar is stabilized by the fed.  It's why it is a fiat currency and not a commodity like cryptocurrency.  



Captain_Tom said:


> 4) False.  Period.  It's just as "Made up" as any cryptocurrency.  The gold standard is dead.


See the response to #3 above.  The federal reserve system has proven to be more stable than the gold standard (which is why all countries use fiat now).  Gold standard is hardly better than cryptocurrency except the part where gold is a physical commodity that is tradable under virtually all circumstances.  Not so much for crypto because, you know, gold has intrinsic value.


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## xkm1948 (Feb 8, 2018)

So has it crashed or not?


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## moproblems99 (Feb 8, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> So has it crashed or not?



I mean it is pretty easy to go look at numbers and pricing....

EDIT:  Sorry, forgot some links.

https://coinranking.com/

https://www.newegg.com/Desktop-Graphics-Cards/SubCategory/ID-48?Tid=7709


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> So has it crashed or not?



Still up over 400% from last year.  So still, I'm going with "no."


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## xkm1948 (Feb 8, 2018)

So no cheapo GPU any time soon? Damn it!


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> So no cheapo GPU any time soon? Damn it!



Cheapo?  No.  Cheaper?  Yes.  (GTX 1080's for $750.00 is what I'm seeing right now, which is less, but still bad)

And I'd expect them to correctly target production come Volta/whatever is next, personally.


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## xkm1948 (Feb 8, 2018)

K then I guess it is time to save up for 1180Ti. Maybe buying a founder's edition card this time as well. Just spent $50 fixing my FuryX pump with Sapphire. Not gonna go OEM AIO cards again. Hopefully I can hang on until 1180Ti or 2080Ti drops.


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2018)

I wish you luck.


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## hat (Feb 8, 2018)

They'll be all over the new cards seeing how they mine... unless crypto really takes a huge dump, they'll be all over the next generation of cards as well.


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2018)

hat said:


> unless crypto really takes a huge dump



It already has...  I mean what's this thread called?

We've basically reached the middleground between unprofitable and insanely profitable, called "normal."


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## RCoon (Feb 8, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It already has...  I mean what's this thread called?
> 
> We've basically reached the middleground between unprofitable and insanely profitable, called "normal."



I'd like permission from members to rename this "The State of Cryptocurrency". A like will do so I can gauge response. The current title feels narrow considering the overall discussion.


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I'd like permission from members to rename this "The State of Cryptocurrency". A like will do so I can gauge response. The current title feels narrow considering the overall discussion.



Now you're just farming likes...

(I'm messing with you, in case this could be misconstrued...)


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## dorsetknob (Feb 8, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I'd like permission from members to rename this "The State of Cryptocurrency". A like will do so I can gauge response. The current title feels narrow considering the overall discussion.



Or You Could PM the OP ( @trogg100 ) and ask him to edit/change thread Title ( providing he still has editing permissions for that).
I'm sure he would appreciate the attention and care of a Superior mod such as yourself.


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## trog100 (Feb 8, 2018)

i am gonna give you 10 out of 10 for your "debating" ability ford.. its a shame that most of what you say is idealized nonsense.. i have to wonder where you get some of it from..

trog



xkm1948 said:


> So has it crashed or not?



do you really mean has it died or not.. at the moment lets just say its suffered a large downward price correction.. the nature of which is unknown.. 

it seems to be staging a mild recovery at the moment.. what happens next genuinely nobody know for sure.. some people may talk as if they know but they dont..

my theory is this.. some of the whales are deliberately crashing the market in a controlled fashion to clear it out.. get rid of the volatility (new speculators) and stabilize the market for the future.. during December it did get way out of hand.. but it is a just theory..

if my theory is correct.. after the "fake" crash cypto will come back stronger than ever.. more "fake" crashes will occur.. they have to to get rid of the froth.. but the general trend will be up.. 

trog



dorsetknob said:


> Or You Could PM the OP ( @trogg100 ) and ask him to edit/change thread Title ( providing he still has editing permissions for that).
> I'm sure he would appreciate the attention and care of a Superior mod such as yourself.



i have okayed the title change.. and as a general rule i dont appreciate attention from mods.. its usually of a negative nature.. he he.. 

trog

an interesting piece here.. some double talk from china it seems.. banned but not banned .. he he

http://bitcoinist.com/lambos-china-luxury-cars-crypto-despite-ban/

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i am gonna give you 10 out of 10 for your "debating" ability ford.. its a shame that most of what you say is idealized nonsense.. i have to wonder where you get some of it from..


People fear the unknown and apparently those rooting for cryptocurrencies completely lack understanding of how central banks work.  As someone that has a basic understanding of both and for the reasons cited in the last two posts, I can say with certainty that pigs will fly before a cryptocurrency replaces the central banking system.  Blockchain tech may be used here and there for specific reasons but it will all always tie back into central bank system it can't reasonably replace.


Let's dig deeper.  Bitcoin uses the IEEE754 "double" (binary64) definition for describing values which only has 15 digits of precision.  The US debt, by itself, is already at 13 digits (20 trillion) to describe.  On top of that, the closer you get to 15 digits, the more likely rounding errors occur (9 becomes 9.00000000000000000001).  Bitcoin was designed to be small.

Programs that work with USD should be using the decimal128 standard which is 6,144 digits.  As mentioned above, decimal128 won't work with Bitcoin because Bitcoin has no system for keeping the purchasing power of a single Bitcoin somewhat constant.  Deep, deep fractions are inevitable and will eventually lead to errors.  The entire Bitcoin network is going to eventually be forced to change to "quadruple" (binary128) which is going to at least double the cost of computations because...like...no hardware...has FPUs designed to handle quadruple calculations.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

See the problem with the Fed and Banks is zero transparency. The beauty of the blockchain is 100% transparency and 100% accountability. The Pentagon couldn't just "lose" 21 Trillion and the Fed goes "don't worry we will just print more to stabilize the economy."


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

The fed is apolitical.  It looks at economic data, cost of living, liquidity of cash, and so on and makes their decisions based on that data.  Transcripts of the meetings are published.

The Pentagon thing is Congress' job to investigate and prosecute.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The fed is apolitical.  It looks at economic data, cost of living, liquidity of cash, and so on and makes their decisions based on that data.  Transcripts of the meetings are published.
> 
> The Pentagon thing is Congress' job to investigate and prosecute.


I sometimes imagine people just jumping up and down in front of their pc shouting IM right.
Believe what you want about the fed a Few people were made very rich by its creation and are kept well stocked..

The available cash explosion thats occoured since its creation is a clear early stage planning run for bitcoin mate , you just dont see it, yes itll be fedcoin but those lazy bastard's are not actually going to fully create their own.

Cryto in kind Is here to stay, its final shape might not yet be known but please see the reality we face crypto currency is the next big thing.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The fed is apolitical.  It looks at economic data, cost of living, liquidity of cash, and so on and makes their decisions based on that data.  Transcripts of the meetings are published.
> 
> The Pentagon thing is Congress' job to investigate and prosecute.



Yeah that's what they tell you they do...but what they actually do seems to be very different. Why else would a lot of people want to Audit the Fed? Could it be corrupt? Naw there is nothing corrupt about an entity that made the government strip people of Gold to trade in for fiat...you seem to be very disillusioned to the corruption levels of the fed and our government. Look at all the wonderful stuff coming to light now..course not a word from the propaganda news shows, but it's exploding on the internet right now.

The blockchain would remove a ton of this corruption because you can't hide it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> The available cash explosion thats occoured since its creation is a clear early stage planning run for bitcoin mate , you just dont see it, yes itll be fedcoin but those lazy bastard's are not actually going to fully create their own.


There was a central US bank since 1791 (dates back to Hamilton).  The Federal Reserve System was created from that in 1913.  The "cash explosion" didn't happen until after Nixon ended the US Gold Standard in 1971.

"Federal Reserve Nex Steps in the Payments Improvement Journey" makes only one mention of cryptocurrency:


> The payments industry also has begun exploring potential uses of digital currency and distributed ledger technology in delivering faster payment solutions.


 Chain is likely the one the Fed is watching because it's operated by Visa.  It's not doing great.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/950031660506079232


ZenZimZaliben said:


> The blockchain would remove a ton of this corruption because you can't hide it.


You're forgetting that people do have a right to privacy to some extent.  It's one reason why cash is still so popular.  The fed doesn't know squat about individuals in the system for a reason.


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## Captain_Tom (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> People fear the unknown and apparently those rooting for cryptocurrencies completely lack understanding of how central banks work.  As someone that has a basic understanding of both and for the reasons cited in the last two posts, I can say with certainty that pigs will fly before a cryptocurrency replaces the central banking system.  Blockchain check may be used here and there for specific reasons but it will all always tie back into central bank system it can't reasonably replace.



The funny thing is I would agree with Trogg that your debating ability is alright, but everything you are saying is idealized BS.  Like you are seriously constantly contradicting yourself and spouting the same nonsense idiots say, but just in a better organized fashion.   

Your example of "the internet disappearing" is especially hilarious.  The internet isn't going anywhere Mr. 1980's, and if it did collapse we wouldn't be using useless paper as currency!  We would be using food, water, and other essential supplies as currency after whatever bizarre catastrophe destroyed the internet.

In fact you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the inherent utility cryptocurrencies bring to the financial market.  They are a new asset class that will make much of our current system wholly obsolete, but I never said it will COMPLETELY replace banking. They will be integrated into the existing system.

USD is here to stay and paper money will always be a fallback.  But it doesn't need to be replaced to become far less important than it is now.  For example we do indeed still buy paper books, but anyone who said "the internet will fail" is still a moron.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You're forgetting that people do have a right to privacy to some extent.  It's one reason why cash is still so popular.  The fed doesn't know squat about individuals in the system for a reason.



You get privacy. It doesn't say FordGT90Concept has 50BTC it says wallet asdfljkHJOh98!@#jdaoi has 50BTC.


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## trog100 (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> There was a central US bank since 1791 (dates back to Hamilton).  The Federal Reserve System was created from that in 1913.  The "cash explosion" didn't happen until after Nixon ended the US Gold Standard in 1971.
> 
> "Federal Reserve Nex Steps in the Payments Improvement Journey" makes only one mention of cryptocurrency:
> Chain is likely the one the Fed is watching because it's operated by Visa.  It's not doing great.
> ...



and most countries in the world are doing their best to outlaw cash transactions under the bullsh-t guise of only criminals want to hide what they are doing.. exactly the same as with crypto.. wise up chaps those that control out lives want to know everything we do.. soon any attempt to stop them doing this will be seen as a crime..

privacy is only something that criminals need.. honest folks have nothing to hide.. he he

trog


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

Let me just put this here. You can see every wallet and what it holds...you just don't know who owns the wallet. 

https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> The internet isn't going anywhere Mr. 1980's, and if it did collapse we wouldn't be using useless paper as currency!


Had a major, regional outage last summer here.



ZenZimZaliben said:


> You get privacy. It doesn't say FordGT90Concept has 50BTC it says wallet asdfljkHJOh98!@#jdaoi has 50BTC.


The fed doesn't even know that much unless they had reason to seize my credit union's assets.



ZenZimZaliben said:


> Let me just put this here. You can see every wallet and what it holds...you just don't know who owns the wallet.
> 
> https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html


If you don't know who holds it, how does that help fight corruption at all?  If there's fraud involved, investigators present their case to a judge and the judge, if evidence is sufficient, issues a search warrant.  The investigators usually start at the property where they figure out where the individual banks at and then they request the ledger(s) from that specific client from the bank whom hands it over.  At this point, investigators know everyone the individual did business with via credit or debit transactions.  They're still clueless about cash transactions though other than withdrawals and deposits.

In order to identify who owns a crypto wallet, you'd have to subpeon the exchange used which may or may not even keep records on that.


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## Captain_Tom (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Had a major, regional outage last summer here.
> 
> If you don't know who holds it, how does that help fight corruption at all?  If there's fraud involved, investigators present their case to a judge and the judge, if evidence is sufficient, issues a search warrant.  The investigators usually start at the property where they figure out where the individual banks at and then they request the ledger(s) from that specific client from the bank whom hands it over.  At this point, investigators know everyone the individual did business with via credit or debit transactions.  They're still clueless about cash transactions though other than withdrawals and deposits.
> 
> In order to identify who owns a crypto wallet, you'd have to subpeon the exchange used which may or may not even keep records on that.



1) It would be very easy to track self-declared accounts owned by banks buddy.   They brought this up in the recent SEC/CTFC hearing.   It is true that it is hard to track an entire country's worth of people if they are all using Bitcoin, but it IS easier to track company's accounts.

See why the power brokers hate crypto?  It's easier for the people to police their governments/institutions, and it's harder to watch the entire populace as a whole.  A nightmare for dictatorships.


2) Was there a regional outage?  Well then use cash while it's down!   AGAIN:  NOBODY IS SAYING CASH WILL DIE.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If you don't know who holds it, how does that help fight corruption at all?  If there's fraud involved, investigators present their case to a judge and the judge, if evidence is sufficient, issues a search warrant.  The investigators usually start at the property where they figure out where the individual banks at and then they request the ledger(s) from that specific client from the bank whom hands it over.  At this point, investigators know everyone the individual did business with via credit or debit transactions.  They're still clueless about cash transactions though other than withdrawals and deposits.



Well if I tell you my address for my wallet you now know. Govs/Banks wallets would be public just not the private key. In fact here is my LTC wallet address if you would like to add funds - LSHNPjpw1NFXxQ7fVtrStZYndHxMLPj81y


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> See why the power brokers hate crypto?  It's easier for the people to police their governments/institutions, and it's harder to watch the entire populace as a whole.  A nightmare for dictatorships.


Power brokers don't "hate crypto," they simply acknowledge the fact it has no value except whatever is given to it through speculation.



Captain_Tom said:


> 2) Was there a regional outage?  Well then use cash while it's down!   AGAIN:  NOBODY IS SAYING CASH WILL DIE.


Which begs the question no one answers: when cash is created based on a cryptocurrency, what function enforces its off-the-grid status?



ZenZimZaliben said:


> Well if I tell you my address for my wallet you now know. Govs/Banks wallets would be public just not the private key.


That's no different than the account number and routing number the banking system already uses.

The problem stems from the anonymity of all the members in the ledger.  Every investigation would require figuring out who owns every wallet the individual did transactions with.  That's a monumental task and would inevitably lead to law enforcement possessing databases of wallet affiliations.  This leads to the same 4th amendment challenges that gun registries run into.  At the end of the day, Bitcoin's scheme protects criminals and makes for a poor tool to bring them to justice.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Power brokers don't "hate crypto," they simply acknowledge the fact it has no value except whatever is given to it through speculation.
> 
> 
> Which begs the question no one answers: when cash is created based on a cryptocurrency, what function enforces its off-the-grid status?
> ...



How can it protect criminals yet not offer the privacy to the consumer?


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Information should be private until search warrant is issued.  Individuals an organizations that had dealings with the suspect are required to keep records.  In cases involving encrypted devices, courts have ruled that the 5th amendment trumps gaining access to the device.  People that want to stay off the grid have the right to do so.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Information should be private until search warrant is issued.  Individuals an organizations that had dealings with the suspect are required to keep records.  In cases involving encrypted devices, courts have ruled that the 5th amendment trumps gaining access to the device.  People that want to stay off the grid have the right to do so.



wut? Your logic is flawed. No one said anything about decryption of my private keys. You could easily figure out someones wallet address though.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> You could easily figure out someones wallet address though.


Exactly.  In other words, everyone that buys porn, illegal drugs like marijuana, and everything else that's unflattering would become public knowledge.

That's not a world I want to live in.  Private -> search warrants = better for everyone.


FYI, that article I linked to from the Federal Reserve says they processed 13 million payments through a "fast ACH" (transactions clear in no more than a day).


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Exactly.  In other words, everyone that buys porn, illegal drugs like marijuana, and everything else that's unflattering would become public knowledge.
> 
> That's not a world I want to live in.  Private -> search warrants = better for everyone.
> 
> ...


finally  something i agree with you on , with regulation crypto is easily traceable for 90% of users imho since most exchanges register their users ,a fact that will keep cash in the hands of many for years to come.

fedcoin when it comes is not going to be anywhere near the great thing they will say it is just because of the direct digital traceabiltiy.

and regardless if i were to set out to buy a million pounds worth of something bad ,its still very hard to get a million pound to anyone else without a trace regardless of using fiat or crypto and all small scale deals still resort to cash ,so its not going to die , shit no one wants a porn bill turning up on something the wife sees


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## Captain_Tom (Feb 8, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> finally  something i agree with you on , with regulation crypto is easily traceable for 90% of users imho since most exchanges register their users ,a fact that will keep cash in the hands of many for years to come.
> 
> fedcoin when it comes is not going to be anywhere near the great thing they will say it is just because of the direct digital traceabiltiy.
> 
> and regardless if i were to set out to buy a million pounds worth of something bad ,its still very hard to get a million pound to anyone else without a trace regardless of using fiat or crypto and all small scale deals still resort to cash ,so its not going to die , *shit no one wants a porn bill turning up on something the wife sees*



It already does with credit cards lol.   If you want a private account, download a new wallet...


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> It already does with credit cards lol.   If you want a private account, download a new wallet...


exactly im not using credit or crypto for anything dodgy to said wife i dont have  , for dodgy its gota be cash


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## Captain_Tom (Feb 8, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> exactly im not using credit or crypto for anything dodgy to said wife i dont have  , for dodgy its gota be cash




*I think you need to understand that the crypto market is slowly organizing itself so that you can use a specific "coin" for the exact thing you need.  Think of the market as distinctly broken up into several categories:*

1) *Bitcoin* is an open gold standard.  It anchors the market, and acts as a *stable savings account*.  It isn't easily controlled by oligarchs like our current financial institutions are, but that doesn't mean it _can't _allow more accountability.  On the contrary Bitcoin allows businesses to be held more accountable than ever before...If they choose to be.

2) *Ethereum* allows for *smart contracts and tethering of data.*  It is an incredibly secure way to track decisions and make agreements (Hence why Canada and Brazil are looking into using it to track and protect their country's voting).

3) Coins like *DASH, Monero, and Zcash* allow for people to *spend money with rapid verification and complete anonymity*.  (So stop saying Bitcoin is slow!  No one cares!)

4)  *Makesafe and Siacoin* are emerging so that people and companies can *safely back up their data* somewhere where NO ONE can see it.  Some coins in this arena are even proposing the creation of a new internet (similar to the one discussed in the show _Silicon Valley_.

5) *Emerging coins* continue to pop up with *other use-cases* such as one for game distribution through a blockchain, and other coins trying to one-up the others at their own game.  I am sure many creative ones will continue to appear with varying degrees of usefulness. 


^I am starting to feel like a post like the one I just made needs to be pinned to the top of this chat or something.   Too many people here seem to misunderstand that the cryptomarket truly is a *market* of *different* technologies working *together* to compliment and build off of each other.


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## trog100 (Feb 8, 2018)

at the moment crypto is just an investment interest to me.. if i want to buy something for real  i still use ebay and paypal.. though i have read that ebay is breaking its ties to paypal..

trog


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> *I think you need to understand that the crypto market is slowly organizing itself so that you can use a specific "coin" for the exact thing you need.  Think of the market as distinctly broken up into several categories:*
> 
> 1) *Bitcoin* is an open gold standard.  It anchors the market, and acts as a *stable savings account*.  It isn't easily controlled by oligarchs like our current financial institutions are, but that doesn't mean it _can't _allow more accountability.  On the contrary Bitcoin allows businesses to be held more accountable than ever before...If they choose to be.
> 
> ...


Didn't need the lecture personally I get crypto but it is correct and helpful , i kinda meant my eleged mate dave (hypothetical obv) doesn't except crypto still and likely won't for quite some time.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> *Bitcoin* is an open gold standard.  It anchors the market, and acts as a *stable savings account*.













trog100 said:


> at the moment crypto is just an investment interest to me..


^ This.  Savings != Investment.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Savings != Investment.



Actually bitcoin is now being treated as more of a value store than a currency so that's not totally inaccurate.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

It's a security that's traded like a commodity.


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## rtwjunkie (Feb 8, 2018)

trog100 said:


> privacy is only something that criminals need.. honest folks have nothing to hide


Spoken like someone who has never had privacy as a fundamental right.  Once you have it, you won't give it up.  It has nothing to do with having something to hide.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 8, 2018)

one here for ford and his faith in the conventional US economic management and the US dollar..

https://usawatchdog.com/biggest-ever-debt-dollar-crisis-coming-peter-schiff/

trog



rtwjunkie said:


> Spoken like someone who has never had privacy as a fundamental right.  Once you have it, you won't give it up.  It has nothing to do with having something to hide.



dont you recognize ironic sarcasm when you see it.. it seems not.. i have been told that Americans dont in the past.. maybe i need to change how i put thing across..

i value my privacy greatly and i am well aware that it is being taken away.. is that more clear to you.. 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2018)

trog100 said:


> one here for ford and his faith in the conventional US economic management and the US dollar..
> 
> https://usawatchdog.com/biggest-ever-debt-dollar-crisis-coming-peter-schiff/


Again, that's on Congress for not balancing the budget.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 10, 2018)

Pre Edit
This is a Comment and not a "sales pitch" ( but if anyone is interested i can supply a link in PM's if needed)

Starting to see Things like this for sale Localy
*GTX 1060 6GB Nvidia Asus x 2*
*£300.00*
*Description*
Selling both, 300 each. Moving house so need money and cryptos are too low ATM to sell. Bought in October, ran on around 50-55c

Pick up and cash on collection only

Have receipt, box and all

They are about a mile from where i live


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2018)

Return to normalcy...  Still profitable here in the northwest though.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2018)

i doubt there is a miner in the land that dosnt assume crypto will go back up again.. plus mining a couple of 1060 cards really isnt worth it.. if short of cash better £300 quid in the pocket.. it woud take ages to mine that with a pair of 1060 cards..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i doubt there is a miner in the land that dosnt assume crypto will go back up again.. plus mining a couple of 1060 cards really isnt worth it.. if short of cash better £300 quid in the pocket.. it woud take ages to mine that with a pair of 1060 cards..
> 
> trog



I will reach ROI in less than the year most promotional interest free credit lines run for fwiw.  And that IS assuming it doesn't go up from here.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 10, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> *I think you need to understand that the crypto market is slowly organizing itself so that you can use a specific "coin" for the exact thing you need.  Think of the market as distinctly broken up into several categories:*
> 
> 1) *Bitcoin* is an open gold standard.  It anchors the market, and acts as a *stable savings account*.  It isn't easily controlled by oligarchs like our current financial institutions are, but that doesn't mean it _can't _allow more accountability.  On the contrary Bitcoin allows businesses to be held more accountable than ever before...If they choose to be.
> 
> ...



Riiiight. This is what all the players on the market want you to think because this is how they succeed with their ICOs. Its called marketing, and all of it should be questioned thoroughly and constantly. Every day a new best practice pops up and every coin has one goal: to find as many investments as possible. Money = influence in the system.

Honestly, crypto in its current form... it won't last because the foundation is heavily polluted, and that stench will never really go away. The game is rigged.

Do you really think the masses have any interest in divided funds across a multitude of coins, all of them volatile in one way or another? Come on man, get real. The average citizen doesn't even dare to change its bank account due to all the potential issues and work it can create. And on top of all this, no one has any desire to convert a savings account into a speculative one. All these different coins and the fragmentation it brings is counterproductive for any kind of mass adoption.

Also, when it comes to innovation, take a long look at this

http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en...pact/innovation/principles-of-innovation.html

And then consider how many boxes were ticked by Bitcoin, and how all these alt coins are filling up the gaps, or at least, 'say' they do. As I said: the foundation is screwed up, and it takes a really devout believer to think you can fix this without starting over entirely. The fundamental problem will never go away: crypto coins are all linked in one way or another. There is no 'stable' alternative when its based on the current status quo.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 10, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> acts as a *stable savings account*.



It absolutely doesn't look like it's the case.

It's price graph looks like a mountain range. If you consider that a proper way of keeping your savings ... well let's just say that the bitconnect guy will be happy to do business with you.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I will reach ROI in less than the year most promotional interest free credit lines run for fwiw.  And that IS assuming it doesn't go up from here.



not exactly life style changing is it.. more so when you are talking a couple 1060 cards being the investment.. 

but if a person is short of ready cash i can see why they would flog a card or two.. 

trog


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> not exactly life style changing is it.. more so when you are talking a couple 1060 cards being the investment..
> 
> but if a person is short of ready cash i can see why they would flog a card or two..
> 
> trog



Smart people don't gamble with money they don't have or can't miss. Only the desperate do this, and they hardly fix anything by doing it. Its the worst way to manage your finances.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2018)

lending your money (savings) to a bank to speculate  with is also a fools game..

and thinking your money is safe in a bank is a bigger fools game.. he he

trog


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> lending your money (savings) to a bank to speculate  with is also a fools game..
> 
> and thinking your money is safe in a bank is a bigger fools game.. he he
> 
> trog



LOL.... really? The past 30 years my bank hasn't really let me down to be fair and if a bank falls over, I can get up to 100.000 EUR back on the basis of a simple form to our national bank. In other news, the entire real estate market is carried by the banking system. If it wasn't for banks, we'd all be renting houses ie tossing money into a bottomless pit for just a roof over your head that you will never own.

Note: I've already experienced this when DSB (a Dutch bank) collapsed - the entirety of my savings account there was returned to me within 6 weeks. The system we have in place really is pretty solid and chock full of checks and balances. That doesn't mean it can't or should not improve, but I am confident that it will.  Too much depends on it - remember the expression 'too big to fail'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSB_Bank


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 10, 2018)

Your money isn't safe anywhere but even less so when it comes down to crypto.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 10, 2018)

All safety is relative, anyone interested in computer technology knows this.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 10, 2018)

I really find it fascinating how can one bear more trust in this made up virtual cash than into a well established insured banking system.


----------



## verycharbroiled (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> lending your money (savings) to a bank to speculate  with is also a fools game..
> 
> and thinking your money is safe in a bank is a bigger fools game.. he he
> 
> trog



eh? my banks are safe enough for me (USA here). only way to lose it is to have the government or irs or something confiscate it for whatever reason. and i am not worried about that.

its just a place to park it till i find something to do with it anyway.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Your money isn't safe anywhere but even less so when it comes down to crypto.



Well, crypto can be made safe as money in a mattress...  but what it's going to end up worth in fiat is anyones guess.

There's the rub.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> thinking your money is safe in a bank is a bigger fools game



We got some money stolen form our house.

They cant steal it from our bank.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2018)

the bank can steal it.. the term is bail in as opposed to bail out.. with one the tax payer puts right the failing bank.. with the other the bank helps itself to the depositors dosh.. banks must not be allowed to fail for fear of the contagion spreading and bringing the lot down.. in truth they are all broke.. he he

but with soon to come negative interest rates you will actually paying the bank to gamble with your money.. and if they lose it you wont get it back.. what did i say about a fools game..

trog


----------



## hat (Feb 10, 2018)

I've never had an issue with my bank either... but I'm not looking to replace USD with crypto. Back in June/July last year I got into the game hoping to make some extra money with this, and I've been doing just that. I'd love to hold onto some BTC and let my stash grow, but alas... life is not that easy.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> lending your money (savings) to a bank to speculate  with is also a fools game..
> 
> and thinking your money is safe in a bank is a bigger fools game.. he he
> 
> trog


Checking and savings accounts are insured by FDIC or NUCA in the USA up to a balance of $250,000.  They overleverage themselves and collapse, the fed seizes the facility on Saturday evening.  As long as you don't exceed that amount, the money is safe.  This was created to prevent runs on banks dating back to the Great Depression.



R-T-B said:


> Well, crypto can be made safe as money in a mattress...  but what it's going to end up worth in fiat is anyones guess.
> 
> There's the rub.


Except that fiat isn't moving to crypto.  Crypto is _not_ a safe haven.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the bank can steal it.



Hasn't happened in my 37 years while I've been living on this planet. In fact, they give us interest on our saving account.

I trust my bank more than leaving cash around the house.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Except that fiat isn't moving to crypto. Crypto is _not_ a safe haven.



I specifically said your crypto is safe NOT your fiat and you still somehow manage to go on about fiat?

You confuse me, ford...

And money moves in and out of crypto from fiat everyday, at any rate.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Feb 10, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Its not just British Banks   now some US banks have also joined in
> 
> US banks are queueing up to stop customers from buying bitcoin using credit cards, as wild price swings continue on the biggest cryptocurrency.
> 
> ...



Their customer base will take a hit too


----------



## ppn (Feb 10, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> And money moves in and out of crypto from fiat everyday, at any rate.



Any rate, more like a small fraction. Once fiat is exchanged to crypt o, one is never getting it back, try a million $. At least not all people can get all their fiat back. Same thing with banks. people in Greece got to experience that bail-in.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2018)

ppn said:


> Once fiat is exchanged to crypt o, one is never getting it back



I must be doing it wrong on a daily basis...


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 11, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Smart people don't gamble with money they don't have or can't miss. Only the desperate do this, and they hardly fix anything by doing it. Its the worst way to manage your finances.


Some people have spare cash around so they get into crypto


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 11, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I specifically said your crypto is safe NOT your fiat and you still somehow manage to go on about fiat?
> 
> ...
> 
> And money moves in and out of crypto from fiat everyday, at any rate.


Crypto is not safe at all.  When the stock market took a dive over the last week, that money didn't go to crypto.  I'm not entirely sure where it went, actually.  Bonds, maybe?


You were talking about mattresses which were safe havens for cash following the Great Depression. Post Great Depression, banks and credit unions are the best place to hoard cash so long as you don't exceed the insured limit.

Crypto is like a mattress made of hydrogen.  It will spontaneously combust, it's just a matter of "when."  If you want to shelter your net worth from an economic storm, crypto is about the worst place you could put it.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 11, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Crypto is not safe at all.  When the stock market took a dive over the last week, that money didn't go to crypto.  I'm not entirely sure where it went, actually.  Bonds, maybe?
> 
> 
> You were talking about mattresses which were safe havens for cash following the Great Depression. Post Great Depression, banks and credit unions are the best place to hoard cash so long as you don't exceed the insured limit.
> ...



i dont think the stock market has finished its diving activities just yet.. 

some say if you dont hold it you dont own it.. maybe some cash under the mattress aint such bad idea.. 

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 11, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Crypto is like a mattress made of hydrogen. It will spontaneously combust, it's just a matter of "when." If you want to shelter your net worth from an economic storm, crypto is about the worst place you could put it.



Ford, you missed his point.  His point was that the security of the *TECHNOLOGY* would be safe and secure *NOT* the *VALUE*.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Crypto is not safe at all.



You seem to be having a hard time comprehending I am only saying your crypto balance can be secured, as in your 1 whatever coin will remain one whatever coin.  I am specifically not commenting on the exchange problem.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 11, 2018)

One question that I admittedly have done very little research on but plan to shortly, and may be suited for its own thread, is poisoning the blockchain.  Similar to ARP protocol, is it possible to poison blockchain?  I suspecting the answer is yes but in practical terms, no because of key signing.

* Edited some typos


----------



## silkstone (Feb 11, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> I really find it fascinating how can one bear more trust in this made up virtual cash than into a well established insured banking system.



Funny thing is, you are only considering banks in Europe/US. Not all banks around the world are the same. I have had money stolen from me in banks multiple times. Not though fees or interest, but literally stolen by the people working at banks. This has also happened to many people I know by employees using various methods.

There are stories in the news quite often of people at the highest level in banks stealing money. Fortunately they usually get executed, but I am sure there are many more that are not caught.

I have no doubt that for many of the banks, if they collapsed, I would receive no money back. I am, luckily, in a position where I can have bank accounts in different countries and so keep any major funds in a place with better regulatory protections. Not everyone can.

Crypto is a global currency. Most people are thinking about it with a very local mindset.

[Edit] There is also the matter of cross border transfers. If I want to send money overseas, I can send it to a family member, if I register their documentation and I can send it to my own account overseas (at considerable expense). If I were a local, however, It would be impossible to send money out. Hell, even incoming transfers to my accounts from inside the country are not allowed unless I provide proof of where the funds are from and tax receipts. I've actually had my salary payments held by the bank for weeks, because the amount included a bonus that was not part of my regular salary. I cannot even go to the bank with cash and deposit it, unless I provide documentation with rubber stamps.

Countries like India and China are likely even worse than this! Even in Korea, it is difficult to send money out, hence all the news regarding government regulation. If you look at the countries where crypto usage is booming, they are usually the countries with shitty banking and lots of restrictions. Asia, Russia and Eastern Europe.

The US and Europe are pretty good. To combat money laundering, you have government agencies that investigate things whilst keeping the banking regulations open. Other countries go the opposite way and have very stringent banking regulations, but no agencies. This doesn't stop the real criminals and just makes it a pain in the ass for everyone else.
[/Edit]

[Edit 2]]


FordGT90Concept said:


> Crypto is not safe at all.  When the stock market took a dive over the last week, that money didn't go to crypto.  I'm not entirely sure where it went, actually.  Bonds, maybe?



I think that the money goes elsewhere long before the crash. It's the people who sell in the weeks leading up to the crash that make the real money. Some will hold the fiat for a while, waiting for the dip to buy back, others might put it into foreign currencies, whilst some will invest in more international stocks and bonds. Anything with a high liquidity that will allow them to buy back into their next potential investment. Funny thing is, people often talk about money being wiped off of stock markets, like it has disappeared. It's not, it just left the market into something else well before the crash. As an example, with the housing crash, all that money went to developers and agents months/years before it all collapsed. You have 1 side taking money out, whilst others keep pumping money in. When the balance is tipped to too far to those taking it out, that's when it crashes. Leading up to the crypto crash, I sold a few of my coins to recoup my investment. That money that was 'wiped off' the crypto markets, went to the people that sold leading up to the highs. People will keep buying crypto as they believe it is an emerging market and as it gets more exposure, more people will buy into it as there is a lot of room for expansion. The one certainty in both stocks and cryptos is that it will crash and it will peak. There will be bubbles and collapses. What really makes crypto different, is that it is such a small market, in comparison to traditional investments, that all of this is exaggerated both in terms of time and % change. 'If' the crypto market grows, it will experience slower and less pronounced swings, like the stock market. It is already showing signs of this. I remember back in 2008-2009 when the price of BTC went from $25 to $2 pretty much overnight. That was a 12.5x change. The last rise from $1000 to $20 000, took much much longer and it's been similar for some of the alts like ETH.

The whole system is closer to gambling than anything. Not just the crypto markets, but stocks as well. People don't usually buy stocks because they believe in a company, they buy them because they think the stock will rise. Historically/on average, if you do try to buy into companies that you believe in, you'll do worse than the index. There aren't many fund managers that do better than the index, and those that do are generally just lucky. It doesn't matter to them anyway, as they get their % cut regardless. If you ever buy into stocks using a mutual fund or agent of any kind, the first question you ask is how their portfolio has performed in comparison to the index (after their fees). Only a small percentage of these will ever do better.
[/Edit 2]


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2018)

I think this was mentioned before, but the governments of the world need to begin regulating cryptocurrencies. Doing so will give them a level of legitimacy and stability that they need. Of course this could open up a whole can of worms, but anything is better than the way it is now.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 12, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think this was mentioned before, but the governments of the world need to begin regulating cryptocurrencies. Doing so will give them a level of legitimacy and stability that they need. Of course this could open up a whole can of worms, but anything is better than the way it is now.


Dont worry about regulating , crypto is not going to amount to anything. The tech of crypto, blockchain,  might evolve into something but overall, crypto will not.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 12, 2018)

silkstone said:


> Funny thing is, you are only considering banks in Europe/US. Not all banks around the world are the same. I have had money stolen from me in banks multiple times. Not though fees or interest, but literally stolen by the people working at banks. This has also happened to many people I know by employees using various methods.
> 
> There are stories in the news quite often of people at the highest level in banks stealing money. Fortunately they usually get executed, but I am sure there are many more that are not caught.
> 
> ...


Says who? You've got no idea what you're talking about, the money might not be insured (well technically the govt bank funds are kinda guaranteed by the central govt) but in terms of ease of doing business wrt banking (people to people) we have a ton of ways, which doesn't always involve paying stupid taxes or unnecessary documentation.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Says who? You've got no idea what you're talking about, the money might not be insured (well technically the govt bank funds are kinda guaranteed by the central govt) but in terms of ease of doing business wrt banking (people to people) we have a ton of ways, which doesn't involve paying stupid taxes or unnecessary documentation.



Internationally?

That's one of the problems crypto solves, but never gets credit for.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 12, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Internationally?


I assume he's talking international & interbank, nationally.





> [Edit] There is also the matter of cross border transfers. If I want to send money overseas, I can send it to a family member, if I register their documentation and I can send it to my own account overseas (at considerable expense). If I were a local, however, It would be impossible to send money out. Hell, even incoming transfers to my accounts from inside the country are not allowed unless I provide proof of where the funds are from and tax receipts. I've actually had my salary payments held by the bank for weeks, because the amount included a bonus that was not part of my regular salary. I cannot even go to the bank with cash and deposit it, unless I provide documentation with rubber stamps.
> 
> Countries like India and China are likely even worse than this! Even in Korea, it is difficult to send money out, hence all the news regarding government regulation. If you look at the countries where crypto usage is booming, they are usually the countries with shitty banking and lots of restrictions. Asia, Russia and Eastern Europe.
> 
> ...


----------



## hat (Feb 12, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Says who? You've got no idea what you're talking about, the money might not be insured (well technically the govt bank funds are kinda guaranteed by the central govt) but in terms of ease of doing business wrt banking (people to people) we have a ton of ways, which doesn't always involve paying stupid taxes or unnecessary documentation.


I'm not understanding how you can refute somebody's personal experience.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 12, 2018)

hat said:


> I'm not understanding how you can refute somebody's personal experience.


Personal experience wrt the 2 countries he mentioned? I'm pretty sure I know more about India than him, China ~ well he'll have to clarify that. And yes I admit the international transfers are a pain but they aren't as bad, in India or Asia, as was implied. In fact in places where mobile wallets are a thing, interbank transfers within a country are much easier & faster than the west.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 12, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Says who? You've got no idea what you're talking about, the money might not be insured (well technically the govt bank funds are kinda guaranteed by the central govt) but in terms of ease of doing business wrt banking (people to people) we have a ton of ways, which doesn't always involve paying stupid taxes or unnecessary documentation.



I'm not sure what part of my post you are replying to (it was pretty long). Money is pretty easy to do business with, right but far from safe or secure. Bank funds are not always insured. Hell, here bank notes are not even guaranteed, if they become damaged, you lose that money and counterfeiting is rampant (in some countries). Also inflation can be crazy high and exchanging fiat to foreign currency nigh on impossible. It wouldn't surprise me if in 5+ years, we see countries integrating blockchain in their own currencies. Either as a secure store of money or an anti-counterfeiting method.

Your are coming from a very narrow viewpoint and your point is country specific and you are referring to countries with well established and well regulated banking systems along with robust government policies.  It is not like that in many parts of the world. Whilst the benefits of using crypto in many western countries may not be apparent, they are when you look at it globally and crypto-currencies are nothing if not a global phenomena.

[Edit] - I realize that you coming from the perspective of in India. I am not that familiar with the banking system there, but It has been in the news every now and then. Maybe it isn't so restrictive, can you transfer money across borders freely and easily? Are there restrictions on receiving money?



R0H1T said:


> Personal experience wrt the 2 countries he mentioned? I'm pretty sure I know more about India than him, China ~ well he'll have to clarify that. And yes I admit the international transfers are a pain but they aren't as bad, in India or Asia, as was implied. In fact in places where mobile wallets are a thing, interbank transfers within a country are much easier & faster than the west.



China, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar, Albania, Venezuela, Philippines, Cuba, Russia, . . . need I go on?
Not that I have personal experience with all of those countries, but the banking systems are a lot more restrictive because the taxman doesn't have as much regulatory oversight as in other countries (among other reasons).


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 12, 2018)

silkstone said:


> I'm not sure what part of my post you are replying to (it was pretty long). Money is pretty easy to do business with, right but far from safe or secure. Bank funds are not always insured. Hell, here bank notes are not even guaranteed, if they become damaged, you lose that money and counterfeiting is rampant (in some countries). Also inflation can be crazy high and exchanging fiat to foreign currency nigh on impossible. It wouldn't surprise me if in 5+ years, we see countries integrating blockchain in their own currencies. Either as a secure store of money or an anti-counterfeiting method.
> 
> Your are coming from a very narrow viewpoint and your point is country specific and you are referring to countries with well established and well regulated banking systems along with robust government policies.  It is not like that in many parts of the world. Whilst the benefits of using crypto in many western countries may not be apparent, they are when you look at it globally and crypto-currencies are nothing if not a global phenomena.
> 
> ...


There's two things which I object to, firstly I don't think the banking system in the west is much different or too evolved as compared to the organized (banking) sector in much of Asia, Africa or LatAm. As I pointed out previously, in case of India there are already too many payment options (like mobile wallet) at your disposal, as well as interbank payment. The problem is with international transfers, that too not without reason.

Basically a lot of money sent overseas is unaccounted for i.e. earned through shady sources or unpaid taxes. So the banking & FE regulators have put these levers for tax dodgers & criminals. In places like India, or China, the problem isn't sending money ~ it's taxing it fairly since there are already too many loopholes that individuals & corporates exploit.

The same goes for a large number of nations you mentioned. Also the reason why crypto is a bad idea, anonymous transfer of money is just a massive PITA that many on this form don't understand the implications of. You heard of demonetization in India? Well let's just say crypto could have the exact opposite effect.

There's also hyperbole like this ~





> Money is pretty easy to do business with, right but far from safe or secure. *Bank funds are not always insured*. Hell, here bank notes are not even guaranteed, *if they become damaged, you lose that money* and *counterfeiting is rampant* (in some countries). Also *inflation can be crazy high* and exchanging fiat to foreign currency nigh on impossible.


This is not a country specific problem, in fact there's only a handful of countries that'd do the exact opposite.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 12, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> There's two things which I object to, firstly I don't think the banking system in the west is much different or too evolved as compared to the organized (banking) sector in much of Asia, Africa or LatAm. As I pointed out previously, in case of India there are already too many payment options (like mobile wallet) at your disposal, as well as interbank payment. The problem is with international transfers, that too not without reason.



We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I've had bank accounts in a few different countries and I can assure you there is a difference. Hell, most places don't even have any sort of direct debit system in place and you can forget about trying to open any kind of savings account in some. (Funnily enough, Singapore seems to have one of the best banking systems, unobtrusive regulation, but it is more expensive) There's also the point that Visa and MasterCard are pretty expensive methods of payment.



R0H1T said:


> Basically a lot of money sent overseas is unaccounted for i.e. earned through shady sources or unpaid taxes. So the banking & FE regulators have put these levers for tax dodgers & criminals. In places like India, or China, the problem isn't sending money ~ it's taxing it fairly since there are already too many loopholes that individuals & corporates exploit.



Right, but those criminals still have a way of getting money overseas and corporations will always exploit loopholes. Restrictive banking legislation doesn't really stop the issue, it just makes it more expensive. Most of the regulations are actually put in place to help prevent money laundering, rather than tax dodging (and laundered money is usually taxed money). But, I'd imagine that with a fully public, blockchain traceable series of transactions, finding illegal activity would actually be easier. Criminals moved away from Bitcoin a long time ago because of this. I'd 'hope' that if cryptocurriencies took a larger portion of the international money transfer system, then countries (both sending and receiving) would implement measures to ensure the correct checks are done. There are other reasons countries restrict the free flow of currency, but they are more to do with economic policy and I can't pretend I know enough about the topic to even begin to explain.



R0H1T said:


> The same goes for a large number of nations you mentioned. Also the reason why crypto is a bad idea, anonymous transfer of money is just a massive PITA that many on this form don't understand the implications of. You heard of demonetization in India? Well let's just say crypto could have the exact opposite effect.
> 
> There's also hyperbole like this ~
> This is not a country specific problem, in fact there's only a handful of countries that'd do the exact opposite.



Who is talking about anonymity? There are a handful of coins that are properly anonymous, but most can be traced to a certain extent. Even those that can't, you can still trace the purchases.

I am just focusing on one aspect of blockchain use, of which there are many. While it is not perfect, there are definitely advantages to it over the current system. One would hope that as the technology matures, the advantages become more numerous and regulations develop in step. I'm not an ideologist and don't believe that cryptocurrency is the answer to the worlds problems. Some will fail (and they should) while others mature, make things a little easier/better, and work alongside the mainstream financial system.


----------



## the54thvoid (Feb 12, 2018)

Ah, the power issue is catching up with Iceland...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43030677


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 12, 2018)

just read and was about to link / post
One Good thing to come from Iceland power Shortage
Playing Bjork will be a Problem Solved Bless her pixi socks


----------



## trog100 (Feb 14, 2018)

cypto seems to be on the way up again.. bitcoin has broken the 9000 resistance level and litecoin is up by nearly %40 over a 24 hour period..

my little stash is up £1200 quid overnight.. 

14/02/2018    15:36

895   x 6.5 = 5817   etherium

212   x 25 = 5300    litecoin

0.385  x 1035 = 398   cardano

118   x 26 = 3068  neo

US dollars total = 14583       UK pounds total = 10499

trog


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 14, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> We got some money stolen form our house.
> 
> They cant steal it from our bank.



The bank can (and does) steal the money from you though.



Vya Domus said:


> It absolutely doesn't look like it's the case.
> 
> It's price graph looks like a mountain range. If you consider that a proper way of keeping your savings ... well let's just say that the bitconnect guy will be happy to do business with you.



Bitconnect was an obvious Ponzi scheme that isn't Bitcoin.  I am guessing you know absolutely nothing about it though...


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 14, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> I am guessing you know absolutely nothing about it though...



I know as much as everyone else on here that can afford to waste their time arguing about some speculative matters on some random forum thread. But judging from your very comprehensive comment you definitely seem more eligible than anyone else here to tell me whether or not I know something about a particular subject.

Or maybe not , how about next time you refrain yourself from trying to measure my knowledge.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 14, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:

"I am guessing you know absolutely nothing about it though..."


I know a little more than i did 5 min ago   does that make me an  Expert   ( compared to some comments made yeh sure )


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 14, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> The bank can (and does) steal the money from you though.



Its still safer leaving it in the bank than around the house..


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 14, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> I know as much as everyone else on here that can afford to waste their time arguing about some speculative matters on some random forum thread. But judging from your very comprehensive comment you definitely seem more eligible than anyone else here to tell me whether or not I know something about a particular subject.
> 
> Or maybe not , how about next time you refrain yourself from trying to measure my knowledge.



You're kidding right?  You are insulted that I "measured your knowledge" after you tried to mock me by pointing out that Bitconnect fell apart?

I wasn't talking about bitconnect.  I was talking about Bitcoin, an entirely different thing.   Therefore it was very easy to discern that you know absolutely nothing about anything being said by the people in this forum who are well-educated on cryptocurrencies.


In fact your comment is a prime example of the type of comments I just don't understand:  People who think they are smart because they are ignorant.      You don't have to get your feelings hurt when I point out that you are clearly talking out of your ___.  You could just ask honest questions in an effort to learn about something you are uninformed about.  At least that's what I hope these types of forums can be used for....


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 14, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> In fact your comment is a prime example of the type of comments I just don't understand:  People who think they are smart because they are ignorant.      You don't have to get your feelings hurt when I point out that you are clearly talking out of your ___.  You could just ask honest questions in an effort to learn about something you are uninformed about.  At least that's what I hope these types of forums can be used for....



What an oxymoron your comment is , it is rather disappointing you can't even realize that. 

Anyway , I see you keep throwing insults at me for no reason while trying to portray yourself as some sort of an educator in a rather pathetic way. For that reason you get a ticket straight to the ignore list.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 14, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> What an oxymoron your comment is , it is rather disappointing you can't even realize that.
> 
> Anyway , I see you keep throwing insults at me for no reason while trying to portray yourself as some sort of an educator in a rather pathetic way. For that reason you get a ticket straight to the ignore list.



My comment is only an oxymoron if you can make a _single _point showing that you aren't ignorant.  However you have ignored every request I have made for you to demonstrate you actually have anything informed to add to the conversation.


Now go show more people how smart you are by smugly posting Bitconnect pictures lol


----------



## trog100 (Feb 15, 2018)

most anti crypto people are just anti because they are anti.. sadly it all falls apart when they enter into argument as to why they are anti.. 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 15, 2018)

Four main reasons why people are anti-crypto:
1) created a run on computer hardware, especially mid-high end video cards.
2) they invested and sold at the wrong time losing a lot of money.
3) they hate the fact it consumes so much energy and has so little to show for it.
4) it has no financial backing whatsoever so it's a 100% speculative financial instrument.


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Four main reasons why people are anti-crypto:
> 1) created a run on computer hardware, especially mid-high end video cards.
> 2) they invested and sold at the wrong time losing a lot of money.
> 3) they hate the fact it consumes so much energy and has so little to show for it.
> 4) it has no financial backing whatsoever so it's a 100% speculative financial instrument.



Crypto mining is just a Ponzi scheme


----------



## jagjitnatt (Feb 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Four main reasons why people are anti-crypto:
> 1) created a run on computer hardware, especially mid-high end video cards.
> 2) they invested and sold at the wrong time losing a lot of money.
> 3) they hate the fact it consumes so much energy and has so little to show for it.
> 4) it has no financial backing whatsoever so it's a 100% speculative financial instrument.



Also because all that power being wasted on mining could have been used on something more productive, or could have been saved, specially when the world wants to cut emissions.

The biggest reason though remains the fact that it is a bubble. It will come crashing down as soon as governments start regulating it. As prices go up, it becomes more and more lucrative to hack an exchange and get away with millions. We are already seeing the effects.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 15, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Crypto mining is just a Ponzi scheme



Can you explain how mining is a ponzi scheme?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Feb 15, 2018)

Just like trying to grasp at the wind.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 15, 2018)

jagjitnatt said:


> Also because all that power being wasted on mining could have been used on something more productive, or could have been saved, specially when the world wants to cut emissions.
> 
> The biggest reason though remains the fact that it is a bubble. It will come crashing down as soon as governments start regulating it. As prices go up, it becomes more and more lucrative to hack an exchange and get away with millions. We are already seeing the effects.



Governments _are_ regulating it right now, and that is a good thing for the price long term.  Furthermore are you aware that the need for cheap energy mining firms are demanding is accelerating renewable resource adoption in multiple locations?

P.S. Saying something is "a bubble" is a non-statement.  Everything new is a bubble.  The internet is still here after the dot.com crash, and people who bought Amazon stock at $7 ended up being pretty smart didn't they?


----------



## silkstone (Feb 15, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Its still safer leaving it in the bank than around the house..



It depends on the bank. There are some banks that I wouldn't be comfortable leaving more than a couple of grand in and account with. Which is about the same amount I'd be comfortable leaving at home. At least in the home, you can hide the money or install a safe. Home insurance will also, usually, cover cash losses in case of a break in. When someone steals from your bank account, you can usually get it back, but it takes a long time and isn't always guaranteed. It's not a phenomena that is restricted to low/middle-income countries either. When you read about all of the hacks, thefts, ID theft, etc. only a fool would keep everything in a bank. 

A large number of people I know have had money stolen from their accounts, some of them from big name banks too. Sometimes due to card skimmers, sometimes dodgy retail outlets, but other times it's been bank employees stealing their details to make purchases.

With money, the saying 'don't keep all your eggs in one basket, is very pertinent. I have money spread in 3 bank accounts (2 local and one overseas), stocks, gold, crypto, cash, and property (my home). Not that I have a lot in any, but i've set it up in such a way that it is easy to put money into any. Keeping all of your money in one place is a really bad Idea. I would never recommend having more than 5% of your total assets in something as risky as crypto though. Stock market investors use a similar strategy of diversification with a small amount allocated to high risk/reward investments.


----------



## erocker (Feb 15, 2018)

the54thvoid said:


> Ah, the power issue is catching up with Iceland...
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43030677


I was wondering when this would show up.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 15, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> Governments _are_ regulating it right now, and that is a good thing for the price long term.  Furthermore are you aware that the need for cheap energy mining firms are demanding is accelerating renewable resource adoption in multiple locations?
> 
> P.S. Saying something is "a bubble" is a non-statement.  Everything new is a bubble.  The internet is still here after the dot.com crash, and people who bought Amazon stock at $7 ended up being pretty smart didn't they?


I bought mastercard on the 1st day of its IPO, still have it to this day. I bought google on 2nd day of its IPO but only had $2000 back them. Also still have it to this day.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 15, 2018)

silkstone said:


> It depends on the bank. There are some banks that I wouldn't be comfortable leaving more than a couple of grand in and account with. Which is about the same amount I'd be comfortable leaving at home. At least in the home, you can hide the money or install a safe. Home insurance will also, usually, cover cash losses in case of a break in. When someone steals from your bank account, you can usually get it back, but it takes a long time and isn't always guaranteed.
> 
> A large number of people I know have had money stolen from their accounts, some of them from big name banks too. Sometimes due to card skimmers, sometimes dodgy retail outlets, but other times it's been bank employees stealing their details to make purchases.
> 
> With money, the saying 'don't keep all your eggs in one basket, is very pertinent. I have money spread in 3 bank accounts (2 local and one overseas), stocks, gold, crypto, cash, and property (my home). Not that I have a lot in any, but i've set it up in such a way that it is easy to put money into any. Keeping all of your money in one place is a really bad Idea. I would never recommend having more than 5% of your total assets in something as risky as crypto though. Stock market investors use a similar strategy of diversification with a small amount allocated to high risk/reward investments.



Finally a level-headed comment lol.  Say what you will about crypto, but there are a lot of indicators that we could go through both a stock market and housing crash very soon.  Diversify people...



yotano211 said:


> I bought mastercard on the 1st day of its IPO, still have it to this day. I bought google on 2nd day of its IPO but only had $2000 back them. Also still have it to this day.



Yeah but we should all call you dumb right?


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 15, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> Finally a level-headed comment lol.  Say what you will about crypto, but there are a lot of indicators that we could go through both a stock market and housing crash very soon.  Diversify people...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but we should all call you dumb right?


oh everyone called me dumb back then, esp. my dad, who thinks that the stock market is for rich people. My sister also thinks the same way, she prefers to keep her money into her house that she still pays on it. I havent told her that my house is paid for and I wont tell her. I dont treat houses as a investment but she does.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 15, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> Finally a level-headed comment lol.  Say what you will about crypto, but there are a lot of indicators that we could go through both a stock market and housing crash very soon.  Diversify people...



The USD also isn't doing very well against other currencies at the moment. A real bitch for me as I get paid in USD, but owe some money in a (small) GBP loan (something I'd never usually do, but it was a loan for a down-payment).

There are so many options for diversification today, that you can protect yourself much better in the case of a recession or extreme inflation.



yotano211 said:


> oh everyone called me dumb back then, esp. my dad, who thinks that the stock market is for rich people. My sister also thinks the same way, she prefers to keep her money into her house that she still pays on it. I havent told her that my house is paid for and I wont tell her. I dont treat houses as a investment but she does.



Property is, historically, a pretty safe investment, and it actually makes sense to pay it off as quickly as possible if you have high interest rates on a mortgage. At the time of your investment, I'm guessing you were quite young with little other debt and so high risk-reward investments wouldn't have effected you as much had they not panned out.

I'm looking at a 13% APR on my mortgage so I plan to pay that bitch off within 5 years. I will continue to diversify and keep some funds in other equity, but the bulk needs to go into paying that. If I were younger, without kids, I'd be open to putting a greater amount into higher risk investments.

I have friends with multiple properties and the rent generated from them allows them to continue buying more property. It's actually something I'd look at doing, as I get older and have more money. As a general rule, the older you get, the higher proportion of funds you keep in property and bonds.

The money I have in crypto is basically 'play' money as I mine it. I took enough profits to pretty much cover the hardware costs and the only additional money I put in now is the cost of electricity. I'll hopefully recoup some of that in the future as I sell portions of what I mine.


----------



## Captain_Tom (Feb 15, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> oh everyone called me dumb back then, esp. my dad, who thinks that the stock market is for rich people. My sister also thinks the same way, she prefers to keep her money into her house that she still pays on it. I havent told her that my house is paid for and I wont tell her. I dont treat houses as a investment but she does.



Haha.  Yeah well your dad was half right - the stock market is _for_ rich people these days, but anyone _can _profit off of it.  

Well we will see how things pan out, but whatever happens in any of these markets we are discussing - it will be interesting.  As my anthropology teacher said: "Everyone asks to live in interesting times until they actually have to survive them.  The good and the bad news is that you do live in interesting times kiddies."


----------



## silkstone (Feb 15, 2018)

Captain_Tom said:


> Haha.  Yeah well your dad was half right - the stock market is _for_ rich people these days, but anyone _can _profit off of it.



Stocks should be for everyone. Even if you have very little, treat it as a long-term savings account/retirement fund and put a little each month into index funds/ETFs.
Playing the stock market is a young man's or rich man's game as they can afford to absorb the losses more that most.

The problem is that most people have too much debt nowadays, good for the economy, but bad for the state as there will be a whole generation of older people with no retirement funds in the future and the debt will be passed down through the generations.



Captain_Tom said:


> Well we will see how things pan out, but whatever happens in any of these markets we are discussing - it will be interesting.  As my anthropology teacher said: "Everyone asks to live in interesting times until they actually have to survive them.  The good and the bad news is that you do live in interesting times kiddies."



The (misquoted) Chinese curse comes to mind - "May you live in interesting times." Interestingly enough the closest Chinese proverb is actually "Better be a dog in peace than a man in anarchy"



erocker said:


> I was wondering when this would show up.



It's pretty interesting. I forget where I saw it, but I do know that some big data centers use water cooling where they then pump that heated water from the system to people's homes. If I were in a cold country, I wouldn't give a shit about the electricity I used as I'd use it to heat my rooms.
I feel a little guilty where I am now as it is hot as hell all year round, but I balance it out in other ways most don't. I don't drive a car, I don't have a central cooling system for my house, a lot of the electricity here is from hydro, I don't spend a tonne of money on buying the latest, greatest gadgets, etc. Even with mining crypto currency, I don't think my environmental footprint would be as high as If I lived in the west even if it is a lot higher than most locals. I actually used to get by on about $15 of electricity a month for years and years, so I'm kind of recouping that early deficit. My current energy bills are never over $200  a month (for a family of 4) and electricity is around $0.15 per kWh here.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 15, 2018)

silkstone said:


> you can hide the money or install a safe.



Our safe got ripped of the wall with a lot of cash in it...



silkstone said:


> only a fool would keep everything in a bank.



I keep everything in the bank now. I must be a fool...


----------



## kastriot (Feb 15, 2018)

This civilisation is based on profit, with it comes greed, crypto based on mining it's a big lie, but virtual currency based on real money or federal gold reserves is reality and that's it.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 15, 2018)

kastriot said:


> but virtual currency based on real money or federal gold reserves is reality and that's it.


No your wrong the only money involved with crypto is Investor money no federal or gold reserve is involved
unless its hidden under a coat of tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theory


----------



## silkstone (Feb 15, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Our safe got ripped of the wall with a lot of cash in it...
> 
> 
> 
> I keep everything in the bank now. I must be a fool...



Really? No property, stocks, shares, gold, businesses? Just to clarify, I'm not saying that one should keep all of their cash at home either. I'm saying it's a good idea to diversify. I don't keep a tonne of cash at home, but enough that were something to happen with my bank accounts, I would be able to use cash for a short while until my accounts were sorted out.
When your safe was stolen, did your insurance cover the loss?


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 15, 2018)

silkstone said:


> Really? No property, stocks, shares, gold, businesses? Just to clarify, I'm not saying that one should keep all of their cash at home either. I'm saying it's a good idea to diversify. I don't keep a tonne of cash at home, but enough that were something to happen with my bank accounts, I would be able to use cash for a short while until my accounts were sorted out.
> When your safe was stolen, did your insurance cover the loss?



Mate, I aint going into the logistics of it all. It upsets me. All you need to know is my Bank handles all our money.

Like I said in a previous post, 37 years I've been on this earth and my bank has never once stolen from our bank accounts.

My money is better off in the bank were it collects interest.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 15, 2018)

bitcoin just broke above the psychologically important $10000 figure.. crypto is on the rise again.. 

trog


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 15, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin just broke above the psychologically important $10000 figure.. crypto is on the rise again..
> 
> trog



Yes it is and I am glad I bought more during the nice and predictable drop. Eth is already up $350 from Feb 6th. LTC is up to $225 from $100 in same span so it more than doubled. Now if some of my other alt coins follow suit I will be quite happy.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 16, 2018)

What split of coins do people generally hold? I look into the coins and split them into Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and Shitcoins. and keep a 35-35-20-10 mix. I was thinking of employing a 'dogs of the dow' type strategy, but there si the risk of missing out when/if any of the Tier 2/3 coins shoot up in value.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 16, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Its still safer leaving it in the bank than around the house..


That depends on your house, but I disgress..



Captain_Tom said:


> Governments _are_ regulating it right now


Name one please. A lot of them are talking about, but AFAIK, none are actually doing it. Granted, I think they need too and highly support regulations on cryptocurrencies.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 16, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> That depends on your house, but I disgress..
> 
> 
> Name one please. A lot of them are talking about, but AFAIK, none are actually doing it. Granted, I think they need too and highly support regulations on cryptocurrencies.



China (if by regulate, you mean ban).


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 16, 2018)

silkstone said:


> China (if by regulate, you mean ban).


That's not that same. Regulation by definition means allowing something but conditional upon following a set of rules. A ban is just that.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 16, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Can you explain how mining is a ponzi scheme?



I've yet to see anyone succesfully do so.  It's just became the catchphrase as of late.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've yet to see anyone succesfully do so.  It's just became the catchphrase as of late.



I have yet to have anyone put up a decent argument to any of the questions.  I may be pro-mining but I don't mind having legit discussions about it.  I understand people don't like it but I would at least like people to be informed with truths and not like it for real reasons instead of parroting crap that they read from Warren Buffet who has most likely been screwing people for years.  After all, his money had to come from someone...


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've yet to see anyone succesfully do so.  It's just became the catchphrase as of late.


Pyramid Scheme? IIRC most crypto currencies (ICO) are marketed as an alternate to the current fiat based system, now if they can't achieve their goal without the need to be converted at an (crypto) exchange for USD or EUR, then what's the point of crypto again? What are crypto currencies at their heart? A system to move away from the SWIFT based banking, an alternate to legit fiat currencies, commodity that's traded for profit/loss (this is what's happening atm) or none of the above?


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Pyramid Scheme? IIRC most crypto currencies (ICO) are marketed as an alternate to the current fiat based system, now if they can't achieve their goal without the need to be converted at an (crypto) exchange for USD or EUR, then what's the point of crypto again? What are crypto currencies at their heart? A system to move away from the SWIFT based banking, an alternate to legit fiat currencies, commodity that's traded for profit/loss (this is what's happening atm) or none of the above?



What does that have to do with describing mining as a ponzi?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've yet to see anyone succesfully do so.  It's just became the catchphrase as of late.


The miners are the bulk of the pyramid while the ICO operators are at the top pulling the strings.  The miners only get paid enough to stay interested while the operators cash out at the peak (and trigger a crash).

Edit: SEC - Ponzi Scheme


> 1. High returns with little or no risk.
> 2. Overly consistent returns.
> 3. Unregistered investments.
> 4. Unlicensed sellers.
> ...


About the only one that doesn't apply is 2 and 5.  5 and 6 could be assigned to exchanges though.

Edit: Oh look, they have one literally titled SEC - Investor Alert: Ponzi Schemes Using Virtual Currencies


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The miners are the bulk of the pyramid while the ICO operators are at the top pulling the strings.  The miners only get paid enough to stay interested while the operators cash out at the peak (and trigger a crash).



In a ponzi, one must actively pilfer profits from the bottom rung poor, and that is not what I see in crypto.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> In a ponzi, one must actively pilfer profits from the bottom rung poor, and that is not what I see in crypto.



Certainly not the miners.  Which is the exact reason mining is not a ponzi.  Miners' investments are in hardware.  Not the scheme itself.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> In a ponzi, one must actively pilfer profits from the bottom rung poor, and that is not what I see in crypto.


The value of all of the crypto fell by ~70% in a period of two months.  The "bottom rung" was "pilfered."



moproblems99 said:


> Certainly not the miners.  Which is the exact reason mining is not a ponzi.  Miners' investments are in hardware.  Not the scheme itself.


Electricity is the product that cryptocurrency Ponzi deals in.  Hardware is your buy-in.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Electricity is the product that cryptocurrency Ponzi deals in. Hardware is your buy-in.



That's not accurate.  None of the miners' investment ever makes it the ponzi to pay other investors.  Mining cannot be a ponzi.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 16, 2018)

Except you're doing the work of the ICO author (Ponzi).


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Except you're doing the work of the ICO author (Ponzi).



So are you saying nearly every employee/employer relationship is akin to a ponzi scheme?  That the world functions off many ponzi schemes?  They are doing the work of the authors (employers).  They have to invest in houses and cars to get them there.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The value of all of the crypto fell by ~70% in a period of two months. The "bottom rung" was "pilfered."



It was still up 400% from the previous year though?

If it's a ponzi, it's a rather bad one.  And by the logic that a legal investment scheme that can lose the bottom investor money is a "ponzi" so is the stock market then.  That...  doesn't really work...  legally speaking.



moproblems99 said:


> So are you saying nearly every employee/employer relationship is akin to a ponzi scheme?  That the world functions off many ponzi schemes?  They are doing the work of the authors (employers).  They have to invest in houses and cars to get them there.



lol, I think that's the logical conclusion of this line of thought, yes.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> lol, I think that's the logical conclusion of this line of thought, yes.



To be fair, it often feels like my efforts are fruitless and I can never come out on top, lol


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 16, 2018)

Since you both apparently missed it: Investor Alert: Ponzi Schemes Using Virtual Currencies


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Since you both apparently missed it: Investor Alert: Ponzi Schemes Using Virtual Currencies



Did you read it? 

_We are concerned that the rising use of virtual currencies in the global marketplace may entice fraudsters to lure investors into Ponzi and other schemes in which these currencies are used to facilitate fraudulent, or simply fabricated, investments or transactions. The fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform. These schemes often promise high returns for getting in on the ground floor of a growing Internet phenomenon._

Pretty sure that is saying that the currencies are being used to facilitate the transactions not that the currencies themselves are the actual scheme.  Though, I would surmise that a few of the coins probably can be classified as one if you looked hard enough.  But, this still doesn't point to the act of mining as ponzi.

Also, you did not respond to my last question:

_So are you saying nearly every employee/employer relationship is akin to a ponzi scheme? That the world functions off many ponzi schemes? They are doing the work of the authors (employers). They have to invest in houses and cars to get them there._


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 16, 2018)

I'm aware of what it says.  Realize that the Treasury was producing legal tender in the USA for centuries before Ponzi had a brilliant idea how to exploit people.

None of the ICOs have reached full maturity yet.  The oldest isn't even a decade old. We've already seen a number of schemes that drain people's cryptocurrency wallets.  More will come.  Will any reach the scale of Ponzi's scheme?  I think we'll find out when ICOs reach full maturity.

Ponzi was never a market, by the way.  That said, cryptocurrencies possess a lot of features of a Ponzi scheme.  It's hugely unregulated (#3), people that participate in the market aren't licensed (#4), there's issues with liquidity when exchanges get hammered (#6), and because it's entirely speculative there's high returns with little risk so long as you hold long enough (#1).


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm aware of what it says. Realize that the Treasury was producing legal tender in the USA for centuries before Ponzi had a brilliant idea how to exploit people in the market.



So yeah, that's irrelevant to the point we are trying to make.  If anything, you are pointing out dollars are also used for Ponzis?



FordGT90Concept said:


> None of the ICOs have reached full maturity yet. The oldest isn't even a decade old. We've already seen a number of schemes that drain people's cryptocurrency wallets. More will come. Will any reach the scale of Ponzi's scheme? I think we'll find out when ICOs reach full maturity.



We openly admitted some ICOs may qualify.  All of them?  As in, mining in general?

No, sorry.  Just no.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 16, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> _So are you saying nearly every employee/employer relationship is akin to a ponzi scheme? That the world functions off many ponzi schemes? They are doing the work of the authors (employers). They have to invest in houses and cars to get them there._


Ponzi schemes have very clear legal definitions.  You clearly clicked the link so you should be familiar with those are.



R-T-B said:


> We openly admitted some ICOs may qualify. All of them? As in, mining in general?
> 
> No, sorry.  Just no.


How do you know that 75% of the BTC wallets aren't held by one individual, or a group of individuals that effectively control the market?  Who is in the best position to do that? The people that created the ICO.

Some aren't like I doubt the one associated with MasterCard isn't because the SEC would destroy MasterCard if they even considered it.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The people that created the ICO.



Except bitcoin wasn't an ICO.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 16, 2018)

*Oh sh-itcoin! Crypto-dosh swap-shop Coinbase empties punters' bank accounts*
*Says sorry for 'poor experience', vows to pay back missing cash*

* Sensational story Here *
*http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/16/coinbase_error/*

*"Excerpt"*

Digital currency exchange Coinbase said it inadvertently charged punters for transactions they never made, effectively draining money from their bank accounts. It has promised to refund the money taken.

For the last few days, netizens have been complaining that funds had vanished from bank accounts linked to Coinbase without reason. Some people report multiple charges being made that drained their accounts and left them with heavy overcharge fees and the inability to pay bills and rent.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 16, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> *Oh sh-itcoin! Crypto-dosh swap-shop Coinbase empties punters' bank accounts*
> *Says sorry for 'poor experience', vows to pay back missing cash*
> 
> * Sensational story Here *
> ...



Coinbase is one of the biggest providers and most stable.  It'll be interesting to see how they deal with this.  It should be a benchmark for what a legit exchange will do in a hack or error type situation.

My account looks fine, at any rate.


----------



## verycharbroiled (Feb 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Coinbase is one of the biggest providers and most stable.  It'll be interesting to see how they deal with this.  It should be a benchmark for what a legit exchange will do in a hack or error type situation.
> 
> My account looks fine, at any rate.



mines fine too.

however i had setup a separate bank account just for coinbase as i didnt want my main bank accounts linked to it. did it mainly so if a hacker got into my coinbase account the damage would be limited, or if coinbase went wild or something (which i did not think would happen but hey.. it did).

anyway i leave very little in that bank account and very little on coinbase. i just move fiat or coins in and out as needed to buy or sell and most of my coins are from mining anyway so its mostly selling.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Feb 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The miners are the bulk of the pyramid while the ICO operators are at the top pulling the strings.  The miners only get paid enough to stay interested while the operators cash out at the peak (and trigger a crash).



Traditional Miners don't have to sell a single coin they mine. When I mined I held the majority of my coins and sold some to balance my operating costs.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 16, 2018)

verycharbroiled said:


> mines fine too.
> 
> however i had setup a separate bank account just for coinbase as i didnt want my main bank accounts linked to it. did it mainly so if a hacker got into my coinbase account the damage would be limited, or if coinbase went wild or something (which i did not think would happen but hey.. it did).
> 
> anyway i leave very little in that bank account and very little on coinbase. i just move fiat or coins in and out as needed to buy or sell and most of my coins are from mining anyway so its mostly selling.


Very good idea, I tell everyone I know to have a set up like that. 

I have a serparte bank account for each supplier that I have for a business. I have over 10 bank accounts, and only keep my main money in a checking account that has no debit card attach to it. I have a other account that I buy my daily stuff with, only has $1-3k at most. Coinbase has its own account with a 0 balance.


----------



## roccor777 (Feb 16, 2018)

Don't forget the fact that it was invented to be used as a currency, not as a investment


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 16, 2018)

roccor777 said:


> Don't forget the fact that it was invented to be used as a currency, not as a investment


yes


----------



## Boatvan (Feb 16, 2018)

I bought roughly 75 bucks worth of Bitcoin last may that turned into roughly 900 bucks. I reinvested most into XRP. 

Buying and selling crypto is fun and all, but way too volatile to call it an investment. I got lucky.

People invest money into mining hardware and the next big crypto. I for one get more enjoyment investing in and using my hardware to crunch.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 17, 2018)

Boatvan said:


> I bought roughly 75 bucks worth of Bitcoin last may that turned into roughly 900 bucks. I reinvested most into XRP.
> 
> Buying and selling crypto is fun and all, but way too volatile to call it an investment. I got lucky.
> 
> People invest money into mining hardware and the next big crypto. I for one get more enjoyment investing in and using my hardware to crunch.



Very nice. I had about $75 of bitcoin back in 2012 that turned into $0 after the exchange went down. I got very unlucky


----------



## trog100 (Feb 17, 2018)

it wus Visa after all.. coinbase is Innocent.. ouch.. he he

http://bitcoinist.com/visa-owns-up-...coinbase-isnt-to-blame-for-draining-accounts/

trog


----------



## verycharbroiled (Feb 17, 2018)

i would like to hear that directly from visa instead of a joint post on a coinbase blog. not saying its not trues but id rather hear it from the horses mouth so to speak,

interesting none the less.

i wasnt affected, but i  have a dedicated bank account linked to coinbase and its *only* for coinbase, plus no cards are linked t it. no way i would link a day to day usage account to an exchange.

those affected poor sots who had their main (only?) account linked sure got stuffed royally on that. they will get their erroneous withdrawals reimbursed, but i wonder how overdrafts, bounced check fees and such that happened to those whos accounts went negative or suddenly could not cover monthly ( or whatever) payments because of it will be reimbursed? last i read coinbase said "talk to your bank" about it.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 17, 2018)

verycharbroiled said:


> i would like to hear that directly from visa instead of a joint post on a coinbase blog. not saying its not trues but id rather hear it from the horses mouth so to speak,
> 
> interesting none the less.
> 
> ...



the anti crypto brigade where quick to pounce on a nice piece of cryto fud.. both sides blame the other side.. coinbase gets the blames because its crypto cos it couldnt possibly be visa.. he he

my day to day visa debit is linked to coinbase but i havnt bought any crypto lately.. .. i am guessing here but i think its maybe connected to banks banning crypto buying via credit cards.. debit cards being okay.. credit cards not okay..

i have no reason to doubt the veracity of the article.. at least no more than everything i read.. but as you say such a f-ck up will have caused some folks big problems..

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 17, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the anti crypto brigade where quick to pounce on a nice piece of cryto fud..


I Have no Agenda /like/dislike Regarding Crypto
If i See an Item and it may be of Interest to Fellow TPU'ers and as far is i can see no one else has linked/reported that Item then i am quite happy to post said links/story
what the members here make of said Items   is in itself Interesting


----------



## trog100 (Feb 18, 2018)

bitcoin now at $11100..

bitcoin up %30 on the week..

etherium up %14 on the week..

litecoin up %50 on the week

neo   up %25 on the week..

https://coinranking.com/

trog


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 18, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin now at $11100..
> 
> bitcoin up %30 on the week..
> 
> ...


Germany, France and Norway are considering a ban, Iceland and Greenland both are going to begin strict regulations to curb excessive power use(which they can't afford to allow), Canada and the United States both are working on regulations that will either heavily restrict power usage for crypto mining or will add them all to current financial regulatory currency guidelines and taxation(likely both). Those prices will be taking a tumble very soon.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 18, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin now at $11100..
> 
> bitcoin up %30 on the week..
> 
> ...


Another bubble is forming.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 18, 2018)

the ups and down of bitcoin.. 

www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-17/bitcoin-nears-11000-heres-history-its-biggest-ups-and-downs

trog


----------



## silkstone (Feb 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Another bubble is forming.



That's the thing. How can they be bubbles if they occur so often? It's regular market movement. A bubble will eventually collapse, there has yet to be a collapse, just corrections.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 18, 2018)

silkstone said:


> A bubble will eventually collapse, there has yet to be a collapse, just corrections.


You call going to $20k to $6k a "correction"? LOL! That's a hell of a correction. I call it a bubble popping.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 18, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> You call going to $20k to $6k a "correction"? LOL! That's a hell of a correction. I call it a bubble popping.



it did all kind of go crazy in December in that run up to 20K.. a correction was needed.. the correction is over and now it will go up again.. i think it was deliberately taken down and now it will be deliberately taken up but more slowly.. slowly going up is healthy for it.. december was just a newbie buying frenzy..

but it seems large "corrections" have always been part of the bitcoin story.. call them crashes or bubbles if you like it.. really dosnt matter..

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 18, 2018)

silkstone said:


> That's the thing. How can they be bubbles if they occur so often? It's regular market movement. A bubble will eventually collapse, there has yet to be a collapse, just corrections.


https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bubble.asp
"A bubble is an economic cycle characterized by rapid escalation of asset prices followed by a contraction. It is created by a surge in asset prices unwarranted by the fundamentals of the asset and driven by exuberant market behavior."

Losing 70% is a "crash."  Over the last six months, it has been bubble -> crash -> bubble -> crash -> bubble -> crash.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Over the last six months, it has been bubble -> crash



What do you call the last 12 months?


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 18, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> What do you call the last 12 months?


1 year
ahahaha sorry had too


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 20, 2018)

*Israel decides Bitcoin and pals are property, not currency, and attract biblical levels of tax*

excerp from story here 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/20/israel_to_tax_cryptocurrency_and_treat_them_as_property/

The idea that Bitcoin and its ilk create uncontrollable and un-taxable instruments no government can control has been dealt a blow in Israel, where the local Tax Authority has ruled cryptocurrencies are boring old property.


In a circular distributed by the authority dated February 19, the organisation said cryptocurrencies can't be considered a form of money. The document confirms a draft first published on January 12, 2017Taxation will therefore apply "according to the nature of activity" in a virtual currency, the circular said.Someone handling cryptocurrencies at a purely individual level - in other words, buy, hold, and sell at a profit later - will be liable to between 20 and 25 per cent capital gains tax.
That rate will also apply to businesses mining and trading cryptocurrencies, and there's an extra slug: value-added tax will be levied at 17 per cent.
VAT doesn't apply to an individual whose sole activity is for investment purposes, because "a distributed means of payment is an intangible asset", the circular said.
Someone whose activity meets the definition of business will also be classified as a financial institution, the circular said. That classification means another layer of regulation in addition to taxation. Israel reformed its financial services regime in 2016 with the passage of the "Financial Services Supervision Law (Regulated Financial Services) - 2016", which among things imposes fair conduct, disclosure, permits, and enforcement on all non-bank financial institutions.

My comment 
Thats a Heafty level of taxation and i'm not sure that they can enforce or collect due to the nature of Crypto currency


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 20, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> My comment
> Thats a Heafty level of taxation and i'm not sure that they can enforce or collect due to the nature of Crypto currency


The Israelis are very tech savy, they will employ a way to track cryptocurrency transactions, and they'll likely criminalize trying to hide it. Just watch, this is one of the first not the last.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 20, 2018)

Capital Gains Tax is standard fair.  The VAT is interesting and I think that idea will spread like wildfire.

Miners in Israel will get hit with the VAT when they try to sell it.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 20, 2018)

silkstone said:


> That's the thing. How can they be bubbles if they occur so often? It's regular market movement. A bubble will eventually collapse, there has yet to be a collapse, just corrections.


You mean like the stock market bubbles, housing (2008 bust) or commodities & especially oil?
Some of them were multi decade bubbles, they didn't spring up in a year or two. Correct me if I'm wrong but it took a full decade for the repeal of Glass-Steagall to manifest itself as a crisis. Oil itself took about 17 years to peak after the first Gulf War, some of the other commodities took longer. Many would argue that the current stock market is in that bubble phase, with easy & cheap money on both sides of the atlantic.


----------



## xkm1948 (Feb 20, 2018)

Crypto is gonna come crushing down hard once more regulations are adopted across the globe. Good.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 20, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Crypto is gonna come crushing down hard once more regulations are adopted across the globe. Good.



I actually feel regulation will only help cryptos value.  I don't agree with the VAT idea however simply because crypto is an intangible by nature.  Capital gains tax ala the USA is completely appropriate.


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 20, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Germany, France and Norway are considering a ban, Iceland and Greenland both are going to begin strict regulations to curb excessive power use(which they can't afford to allow), Canada and the United States both are working on regulations that will either heavily restrict power usage for crypto mining or will add them all to current financial regulatory currency guidelines and taxation(likely both). Those prices will be taking a tumble very soon.



The US already taxes crypto profits under current regulation. On the whole the government hasn't really expressed much interest in any further regulation, especially considering our tax code is trending toward simplification. Moreover, the authorities that regulate exchanges just issued a statement a couple of weeks ago, that they have no regulatory power over cryptocurrency exchanges because you are buying an item and not stock in a company. They have no interest in, nor standing to regulate it. They can only enforce current regulations with regards to fraud. Just the other day, the FTC Commissioner said he was confident that the industry would develop its own best practices, as most industries do, and regulate itself. So he's optimistic that no official regulation will be needed.

All in all, the US is VERY optimistic on crypto, and as is characteristic of the US (at least compared to the rest of the developed world) seem to be taking a pretty laissez faire approach.


And all that being said, yall naysayers can continue to whine about graphics card prices and doomsay about the crashes, corrections, whatever you want to call them.... I'll just keep making money. I love it when BTC crashes.... means I can get more for super low prices to sell when it peaks. If you're calling doom and gloom on the crashes, you're just a pessimist, or mad that you can't play the market. As investments go, as long as you keep an eye on trends, you can turn a profit on crypto in record time, whereas most investments in the stocks space take years to make that kind of return. Buy the dip, don't get too greedy, sell where you think the peak will be... profit. It really is that simple. If you try to beat em, you'll still be griping and waiting on crypto to die this time next year... might as well join em.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 20, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> The Israelis are very tech savy, they will employ a way to track cryptocurrency transactions, and they'll likely criminalize trying to hide it. Just watch, this is one of the first not the last.


Some coins like ZEC, zcash, and monero are impossible to track.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 20, 2018)

the no-coiners missed this one.. he he

http://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-users-hunted-police-bangladesh/

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 20, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the no-coiners missed this one.. he he



I am highly suprised you posted that link   
That web page/site seemed ANTI CRYPTO COIN almost like Anti Propaganda
i gave up after reading/scrolling half a page ........ "Now >>> I'm So depressed Hope you are Satisfied"


----------



## trog100 (Feb 20, 2018)

this is the one that interests me dorset.. .. a genuine if pitiful attempt at making real use of crypto.. i wish them luck with it.. they sure need it.. he he

http://bitcoinist.com/worlds-most-miserable-country-to-launch-its-own-cryptocurrency-today/

trog


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 20, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> nor standing to regulate it.


You talking about the wrong government agency..


yotano211 said:


> Some coins like ZEC, zcash, and monero are impossible to track.


How do conduct transactions then? How would you convert it to cash? There's always a trail to follow..


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 20, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> You talking about the wrong government agency..



I never said anything more than "the authorities that regulate exchanges" so I'm not really sure what you mean by that. How could I be referring to the "wrong government agency" when I never actually named one? 

For clarity, I was talking about the Security and Exchange Commission.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 20, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> How do conduct transactions then? How would you convert it to cash? There's always a trail to follow..



The cash trail is still there.  It's impossible to track in the crypto ecosystem though.  I can completely see a blanket ban on anon-coin features.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 21, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> The cash trail is still there.  It's impossible to track in the crypto ecosystem though.


Right. As long as it stays in the crypto domain, there is a level of anonymity. Once you go real world it's all over.


R-T-B said:


> I can completely see a blanket ban on anon-coin features.


Yeah, that's likely. The DOJ, FBI and other agencies are very concerned with crypto being used for crime and/or terror. The regulations are coming.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 21, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> You talking about the wrong government agency..
> 
> How do conduct transactions then? How would you convert it to cash? There's always a trail to follow..


I am sure there is ways to cash out. I have heard of people selling coins at a discount to many people on the Thor network. I can ask my German guy, he's an expert on the Thor network.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 21, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> the Thor network.


You mean the TOR network? As in TOR browser? Or were you talking about VeChain Thor wallet?


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 21, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> The DOJ, FBI and other agencies are very concerned with crypto being used for crime and/or terror.



If that is the only reason it gets regulated I will be disappointed.  I am so tired of this knee jerk bullshit about crime and terror.  Anything and everything is a possible implement of crime and terror.  I hope it gets regulated so that more shops will accept it and I can save some money ordering more cards by ordering directly with coins.  As it stands now, when I order a couple more cards this month, it will take a few extra transactions when all said is done.  All of which add extra cost and burden.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 21, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> I am so tired of this knee jerk bullshit about crime and terror.


Knee jerk? Not really. Real world threats need real world action.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 21, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> You mean the TOR network? As in TOR browser? Or were you talking about VeChain Thor wallet?


sorry, I meant the Tor network or browser. I thought it was spelled after the viking god, Thor.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 21, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Knee jerk? Not really. Real world threats need real world action.



I think his main point was everything can and is used for crime and terror.

I don't disagree, but that's not a reason to make it easier, either.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 21, 2018)

propaganda uses a process called linking.. link several words in the same statement often enough and in the end they all mean the same thing.. 

some words like crime or terror really mean two different things.. terror being far more fear inducing than crime for example.. the two words are now more often than not "linked"..

the police used to fight "crime" now they fight crime and terror..  the end result of all this is a police state where the police become more and more like the military and all freedom is lost.. 

the anti crypto factions (officialdom in general)  are now linking crypto currencies to the two already linked fear inducing words.. crime and terror.. 

its thought management in action..  dont be so f-cking dumb as to fall for it.. 

trog


----------



## yesyesloud (Feb 22, 2018)

Hey, has anyone here made decent money with crypto arbitrage? I'm not a gambler myself but I feel like getting invested in it. Likely more profitable than mining at this point overall.



trog100 said:


> propaganda uses a process called linking.. link several words in the same statement often enough and in the end they all mean the same thing..
> 
> some words like crime or terror really mean two different things.. terror being far more fear inducing than crime for example.. the two words are now more often than not "linked"..
> 
> ...


Aren't hitmen currently charging in crypto though?

Dunno... They would miss a lot of the online magic if stuck with cash only policies 

Max Hass


----------



## trog100 (Feb 28, 2018)

the state of crypto in this thread seems to be under very heavy political censorship.. anything vaguely political seems to be quietly removed.. he he..

trog


----------



## RCoon (Feb 28, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the state of crypto in this thread seems to be under very heavy political censorship.. anything vaguely political seems to be quietly removed.. he he..
> 
> trog



This is a forum for technology and science. Politics has no place here.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 28, 2018)

RCoon said:


> This is a forum for technology and science. Politics has no place here.



i agree entirely.. but the snag is crypto is political.. or a thread entitled the state of crypto is and has to contain some political comment.. bear in mind the thread was first called crypto in free fall..

it was changed by request of the management.. things all started to go wrong when the venezuelan petro got mentioned.. from then on most posts have been removed..

but however its looked at the thread has to contain some political comment.. crypto is not simply about technology and science..

you guys interpret the rules but i think you are a bit over the top on this one.. 

take note the thread has not had one single new post show up (apart from the ones i have just made) since the hard line censorship has started.. in simple terms its seems the thread has been censored to death.. he he

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 28, 2018)

trog100 said:


> take note the thread has not had one single new post show up (apart from the ones i have just made) since the hard line censorship has started.. in simple terms its seems the thread has been censored to death.. he he


There have been many posts made since then !!!
Just how many members are you blocking for you not to see those posts or is it that your so full of Self importance on this Subject that you fail to see other Authored posts in this Thread


----------



## RCoon (Feb 28, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i agree entirely.. but the snag is crypto is political.. or a thread entitled the state of crypto is and has to contain some political comment.. bear in mind the thread was first called crypto in free fall..
> 
> it was changed by request of the management.. things all started to go wrong when the venezuelan petro got mentioned.. from then on most posts have been removed..
> 
> ...



Nothing has been deleted since page 12. Perhaps you should check your ignored list for the fault.
As for how we deal with it, it's done on an adhoc basis. We'll delete things as and when we deem them to be outside the realms of the threads focus.


----------



## qubit (Feb 28, 2018)

RCoon said:


> This is a forum for technology and science. Politics has no place here.


I'd normally agree, but sometimes technology issues have political consequences, such as crypto currencies, so they can't be discussed in isolation unfortunately. Therefore, it's a grey area that has to be tread carefully by regular members and mods alike.


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 28, 2018)

*Crypto Market Slightly Grows, Some Altcoins In The Red*

The cryptocurrency market continues a slight uptrend with half of top 10 coins by market capitalization in the green on Tuesday, Feb. 27.
Bitcoin (BTC) has slowed its advance but still managed to increase by 3.79 percent over a 24-hour period with a current trading value of $10,812.50.

Among the top 10 coins, IOTA has seen the highest change of 8.21 percent over the last 24 hours, and is now trading at $2.04.
A number of other altcoins are growing as well. NEO has increased by 7.24 percent, trading at $144.98 at press time, while Ethereum (ETH) showed a little growth of 1.51 percent over a 24-hour period.

Conversely, some altcoins are currently in the red. Ripple (XRP), Litecoin (LTC), and Cardano (ADA) are down with a respective decrease of 0.24, 2.15, and 1.11 percent.

The total market cap hovers above $460 bln after a small sell-off yesterday at $420 bln.

The average Bitcoin transaction fee is at its lowest multi-month levels of about $2.4 per transaction, likely contributing to the cryptocurrency’s growth over the past couple of days.

Yesterday, Feb. 26, Cointelegraph reported on the milestone release of the 0.16.0 version of the Bitcoin Core client, which now fully supports the Segregated Witness (SegWit) scaling solution, designed to reduce transaction fees and confirmation times in the Bitcoin network.
Source
https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-market-slightly-grows-some-altcoins-in-the-red


----------



## sepheronx (Feb 28, 2018)

These cryptocoins were a good idea to grab back in their initial stages, now its just a heavy gamble with no real potential for payout.  As most economists would say (I know, most economists are establishment type who follow the same pattern of economics of the last 40+ years) that cryptos real value is zero, simply because there is nothing to back up its wealth beyond speculation.  Some say the same regarding the USD because of how its printed to infinity, but at least it can be backed up by US resources, Crypto doesn't even have that other than it can be a good platform to hide transactions and or hide money away from government.

It will be replaced, in my opinion, by crytpo's created by state institutions like the Petro from Venezuela, which prompted now more nations to look into the same thing (Iran as example) other nations like Russia and China are still waiting to see if Petro pays off (Some figures show of about $1B+ has been earned since its introduction).  The biggest issue these institutions face though is that "is this another bond borrowing structure were government has to pay it off?" or "are these considered a form of investment in an existing product that you now technically own said asset, like stocks?".  That is the questions being raised about the Petro at least.  Or is it just a get rich quick scheme that even though is stated to be connected to the states oil industry, that in the end, it really is a nothing and you don't really own any stock of the resource?

I wont bother with any of the crypto till I see other nations start to produce their own and how they have a solid basis and reasoning as to the value of said coin, and what it entails.


----------



## silkstone (Feb 28, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> These cryptocoins were a good idea to grab back in their initial stages, now its just a heavy gamble with no real potential for payout.  As most economists would say (I know, most economists are establishment type who follow the same pattern of economics of the last 40+ years) that cryptos real value is zero, simply because there is nothing to back up its wealth beyond speculation.  Some say the same regarding the USD because of how its printed to infinity, but at least it can be backed up by US resources, Crypto doesn't even have that other than it can be a good platform to hide transactions and or hide money away from government.
> 
> It will be replaced, in my opinion, by crytpo's created by state institutions like the Petro from Venezuela, which prompted now more nations to look into the same thing (Iran as example) other nations like Russia and China are still waiting to see if Petro pays off (Some figures show of about $1B+ has been earned since its introduction).  The biggest issue these institutions face though is that "is this another bond borrowing structure were government has to pay it off?" or "are these considered a form of investment in an existing product that you now technically own said asset, like stocks?".  That is the questions being raised about the Petro at least.  Or is it just a get rich quick scheme that even though is stated to be connected to the states oil industry, that in the end, it really is a nothing and you don't really own any stock of the resource?
> 
> I wont bother with any of the crypto till I see other nations start to produce their own and how they have a solid basis and reasoning as to the value of said coin, and what it entails.



While some would argue that XRP isn't a real cryptocurrency. It is backed (as much as any stock) is by its parent company and it is used for legitimate transactions. It is beginning to become adopted and has had a recent research paper released, published by Cornell.


----------



## sepheronx (Feb 28, 2018)

Ripple is interesting and yes, banks are looking at it.  But it all depends what happens.  Various states will take their own crypto over Ripple.  But they could always use Ripple as a gateway between cryptos of various states. It is indeed something to keep an eye on.  But I won't be investing any of it as I am saving fro other states to release their own if they do.  If not, then I could invest in Ripple.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 28, 2018)

yesyesloud said:


> Hey, has anyone here made decent money with crypto arbitrage? I'm not a gambler myself but I feel like getting invested in it. Likely more profitable than mining at this point overall.
> 
> 
> Aren't hitmen currently charging in crypto though?
> ...



the last post i have been seeing for a while is this one.. plus since then i have had several posts removed.. none i considered objectionable..

i dont run an ignore list but there maybe something amiss at my end..

ether way i say no more on the subject.. 

trog


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## yesyesloud (Feb 28, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the state of crypto in this thread seems to be under very heavy political censorship.. anything vaguely political seems to be quietly removed.. he he..
> trog


The actual politics behind it: crypto as we know it inflated because of some wealthy speculators aka "investors" who saw opportunity in making huge, unregulated amounts. It's just an alt stock market for them and that's the sole reason it got considerably big lately. The sooner you realize that, the less delusional you'll be on how it actually works - backed by money.

Crypto nuts think they're "creating" value out of thin air but they're just getting their tiny share in a greater scheme they fail to acknowledge.

As for "censorship" in this thread, I once quoted a politics-free Doors' song excerpt just for the fun of it but it was removed, no hard feelings though


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## trog100 (Feb 28, 2018)

yesyesloud.. please dont be insulting dude.. i wont directly reply because of my feelings about censorship in this thread.. i am sure it would be removed.. 

i like this place and spend a fair bit of time here and have been a member for many years.. but online censorship of all kinds is growing.. it aint a trend i am overly keen  on.. but its happening.. 

and yep before anyone says it.. i am fully aware of the phrase.. if you dont like it dont use it.. 

trog


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## moproblems99 (Mar 1, 2018)

In any case, prices of gpus are coming down so it is nearing time to scoop a few more up before they have a chance to warp any young minds out there...


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## trog100 (Mar 7, 2018)

as per thread tile.. all crypto is trending down at the moment.. my eth (10 x 1070) mining is producing a pathetic 18 US dollars a day and if this keeps up the general price of GPUs should start to come down..

bitcoin seems to be holding up better than other alt coins.. maybe a new trend its hard to say..

https://coinranking.com/

trog


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## neatfeatguy (Mar 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> as per thread tile.. all crypto is trending down at the moment.. my eth (10 x 1070) mining is producing a pathetic 18 US dollars a day and if this keeps up the general price of GPUs should start to come down..
> 
> bitcoin seems to be holding up better than other alt coins.. maybe a new trend its hard to say..
> 
> ...



Everyone and their cousin appear to be wanting to get in on the blockchain thing to get some cryptocurrency going - take the prospect of Amazon and Starbucks hinting at the possibility: https://cointelegraph.com/news/poll...ocurrency-starbucks-hints-of-a-blockchain-app

There are so many starting to pop up now that the whole thing, to me, appears to be stretched out thin and people aren't sure what they should exactly be doing with them. Maybe the best way to describe how I see it, all this is starting to feel gimmicky. Perhaps this is a downward trend for it all?

I've been curiously watching some of the prices on a couple of the higher priced cryptocurrencies:
BTC - down around $1k over the past week (this one swings the most, down $1k one week, up $1.5k another, then down $2k another......then up again)
ETH - down around $100 over the past week
DASH - down around $70 over the past week
LTC - down around $20 over the past week
ZEC - down around $50 over the past week

As you've said before, you're in it for the long haul. Are you still sticking it out to see where it goes or are you starting to second guess your position on it?


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## arroyo (Mar 7, 2018)

Coins will definately drop to certain level of value, but not go below that. Let us assume it will be 6000$=1BTC.
Below this certain value no crypto exchange has any money to offer of you willing to take out your money. There is only air value.
And this air value of couns is going bigger and bigger.


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## trog100 (Mar 7, 2018)

neatfeatguy said:


> Everyone and their cousin appear to be wanting to get in on the blockchain thing to get some cryptocurrency going - take the prospect of Amazon and Starbucks hinting at the possibility: https://cointelegraph.com/news/poll...ocurrency-starbucks-hints-of-a-blockchain-app
> 
> There are so many starting to pop up now that the whole thing, to me, appears to be stretched out thin and people aren't sure what they should exactly be doing with them. Maybe the best way to describe how I see it, all this is starting to feel gimmicky. Perhaps this is a downward trend for it all?
> 
> ...




i am still long haul.. just a little less optimistic.. he he

trog

ps.. just to add.. apart from mining i have just under 7K invested in eth.. litecoin.. neo and cardano.. my stash at current prices is worth just under 10K... it has been worth near 14K at its best.. but i am still showing a profit..


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## Space Lynx (Mar 7, 2018)

What does everyone recommend as the go to exchange to use these days for Zcash, Monero, IOTA, and Bitcoin?

I have heard Kraken was hacked a week or two ago, Coinbase is having some drama... so where do we go? I am new to this world, just want to keep my bank account transfers safe is all once I get started on everything. I got a 1080 ti coming soon, going to mine Zcash or Monero, not sure which yet.


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## trog100 (Mar 7, 2018)

bitcoin has just taken another big dive.. down from around 10700 to 9700.. not a good sign.. no known reason behind any of this.. it just happens.. he he

trog


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## Space Lynx (Mar 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin has just taken another big dive.. down from around 10700 to 9700.. not a good sign.. no known reason behind any of this.. it just happens.. he he
> 
> trog



this is what caused it.  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-after-sec-warns-about-unregulated-exchanges/


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## R-T-B (Mar 7, 2018)

arroyo said:


> Below this certain value no crypto exchange has any money to offer of you willing to take out your money. There is only air value.



Wut?  If an exchange says they offer it, they offer it in cash dude.  That's the nature of exchanges or they go bust.  There's no magic value where they'd stop cashing out.



lynx29 said:


> this is what caused it.  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-after-sec-warns-about-unregulated-exchanges/



Yep.  That and the coinbase lawsuit probably.

There's always a reason.



lynx29 said:


> What does everyone recommend as the go to exchange to use these days for Zcash, Monero, IOTA, and Bitcoin?



I use shapeshift.io for it's simplicity.


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## sepheronx (Mar 7, 2018)

I hope it goes tits up so I can finally buy a GPU.


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## neatfeatguy (Mar 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin has just taken another big dive.. down from around 10700 to 9700.. not a good sign.. no known reason behind any of this.. it just happens.. he he
> 
> trog





lynx29 said:


> this is what caused it.  https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-after-sec-warns-about-unregulated-exchanges/



Also a possible glitch with Binance: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/c...t-gox-estate-still-a-bitcoin-whale-2018-03-07

Two things that put a negative spin towards the king of the hill (BTC) and things start to fold inward again for all crypto currencies.


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## trog100 (Mar 7, 2018)

i dont go for any of the reason mentioned so i am still gonna stick to the no known reason.. other than maybe a whale dumping a huge sell into the market.. i still hold the view the whole game is rigged.. they knock it down and then buy back at lower prices as an when it suits them..  we have had two separate 1000 dollar drops.. very much like the last big crash down..

i dont mind it being rigged because i dont believe  for one second they would take it down much beyond what they are doing.. 

my miner is down to just under 17 US dollars per day.. he he.. i wonder just how low it would have to get before i just switch the f-cking thing off.. 

trog


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## ZenZimZaliben (Mar 7, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i dont go for any of the reason mentioned so i am still gonna stick to the no known reason.. other than maybe a whale dumping a huge sell into the market.. i still hold the view the whole game is rigged.. they knock it down and then buy back at lower prices as an when it suits them..  we have had two separate 1000 dollars drops.. very much like the last big crash down..
> 
> i dont mind it being rigged because i dont believe  for one second they would take down much beyond what they are doing..
> 
> ...



That is why I stopped mining. It is less hassle/frustration/anger to just play the market. %10 swings are normal and don't alarm me.  Plus I don't monitor the market every 30 seconds like I used to...now I just expect the swings.  Since you posted it's already above $10k.


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## R-T-B (Mar 8, 2018)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> That is why I stopped mining. It is less hassle/frustration/anger to just play the market. %10 swings are normal and don't alarm me.  Plus I don't monitor the market every 30 seconds like I used to...now I just expect the swings.  Since you posted it's already above $10k.



I'd be doing the same if mining wasn't fascinating enough to be article worthy...


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## trog100 (Mar 8, 2018)

one such bitcoin whale here i think.. 

http://bitcoinist.com/tokyos-bitcoin-whale-has-sold-400-million-and-thats-just-the-start/

trog


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## trog100 (Mar 10, 2018)

a little more on the bitcoin sudden prices crashes.. i have always thought they looked too neat to be anything other than manipulation.. it seems i wasnt far out..

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@sacred...y-mt-gox-trustee-during-last-3-months-exposed

https://www.trustnodes.com/2018/03/...n-trustee-sold-bottom-blockchain-data-reveals

trog


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## basco (Mar 10, 2018)

https://www.qarnot.com/crypto-heater_qc1/


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## trog100 (Mar 10, 2018)

basco said:


> https://www.qarnot.com/crypto-heater_qc1/



they are getting ready for when skynet takes over the world. 

trog


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## hat (Mar 10, 2018)

On the upside of things, I'm getting nicehash payments far more frequently than I was in the past. I'm also in a situation now where I can probably hold my BTC for a while instead of selling them all the time...


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## trog100 (Mar 11, 2018)

hat said:


> On the upside of things, I'm getting nicehash payments far more frequently than I was in the past. I'm also in a situation now where I can probably hold my BTC for a while instead of selling them all the time...



once these big orchestrated sell offs are out of the way i think the only way now will be up.. 

trog


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## moproblems99 (Mar 11, 2018)

trog100 said:


> once these big orchestrated sell offs are out of the way i think the only way now will be up..
> 
> trog



I'll think you'll find these sell offs to be a semi regular occurrence.  I think there is a group working together in order to keep a cycle of funds and consolidation going.  The key will be timing your purchasing/your selling just right.  If you can, you can game the sell offs and be a silent partner so to say.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 11, 2018)

trog100 said:


> once these big orchestrated sell offs are out of the way i think the only way now will be up..
> 
> trog


You've said that before.  I think crypto-currencies have found their permanent ceiling.  The market isn't growing anymore.  It's the same people buying, selling, and mining.


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## trog100 (Mar 12, 2018)

i think someone for sure wants to keep hammering the price of crypto.. 

this isnt normal market selling its deliberate knock downs.. down from 9800 to 9200 and maybe more in a couple of hours.. 

https://coinranking.com/coin/bitcoin-btc

as for what the permanent price ceiling of crypto is ford there are lot of people would love to know that.. he he

i think its a lot higher than what it currently is but every time it tries to go up it gets wacked right back down.. who and why is still the big unknown.. 

trog


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## ppn (Mar 12, 2018)

the price is driven by electricity costs. there are 8 million cards mining ETH you know. 40% of ETH shifts to BTC. then it is just everybody's personal choice when to sell.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Mar 13, 2018)

ppn said:


> the price is driven by electricity costs. there are 8 million cards mining ETH you know. 40% of ETH shifts to BTC. then it is just everybody's personal choice when to sell.



Correct...but let me expand that by saying "Mining Costs" - startup costs (hardware, software, infrastructure), personal time, electricity, maintenance all work into the profitability calculation and whether mining makes sense.


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## Papahyooie (Mar 13, 2018)

basco said:


> https://www.qarnot.com/crypto-heater_qc1/



I haven't even considered my electricity costs to be "costs" this winter, because my gas bill for heating hasn't risen more than a few dollars a month. My miners have been effectively heating my house, and money saved is money earned. Now that it's starting to warm up, I'll just throw them outside in the shop and simply have to consider the electricity used as cost of operating again.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 18, 2018)

Another Knock for Crypto Mining  ( as if it needed its knockers   English pun/slang)

Story here 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/16/plattsburgh_new_york_bans_crypto_mining/
and a little Culling of Content

A city in upstate New York has become the first in America to effectively ban any new commercial-grade cryptocurrency miners from powering up.

 Mayor Colin Read and the city council of Plattsburgh this month signed off on a measure to place an 18-month moratorium on any new industrial-scale crypto-coin crafting operations within the city limits. Alt-cash mining companies typically require a permit to operate within Plattsburgh – now no more applications will be approved for a year and a half.

Located on the banks of Lake Champlain near the border with Canada, Plattsburgh has a population of 19,000 people, and is a hotspot for boating and bass fishing. Its proximity to the lake also means Plattsburgh is able to enjoy low-cost hydroelectric power, making it extremely attractive to large-scale crypto-mining operations. As _Reg_ readers know, alt-coin crafting rigs can be tremendous power hogs.

When those mining operations came to town, though, the normally cheap power became more expensive, due to the soaring demand, and residents saw their electric bills climb by an average of $10 apiece in January alone. Just two of the registered miners accounted for around 10 to 15 per cent of the city's entire power consumption, we're told.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Mar 18, 2018)

i cant go to the supermarket and buy my food with bitcoin but i can get a 25% discount if i use it to buy cannabis seeds.........speaks volumes.

i dont buy cannabis seeds btw


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## the54thvoid (Mar 18, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Another Knock for Crypto Mining  ( as if it needed its knockers   English pun/slang)
> 
> Story here
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/16/plattsburgh_new_york_bans_crypto_mining/
> ...



Although a small drop in the ocean in terms of locational bans, it's another identifier to Cryptocurrency mining failings.  Almost all power reources these days are being scaled down through technology but the larger scale crypto mining processes (along with server farms etc) are a huge 'unseen' cost to everybody else.  The rush to profit from a low labour economy of income with little overhead bar initial investment is bound to have a cost.  I dont think we should worry about hobby miners like @R-T-B mining with a couple of cards.  Even Trog is still burning through a domestic oil heater per day.  But the large scale operations, the ones responsible for gfx card price inflation should be mitigated.  I think large scale mining above a certain power envelope should be hit hard but hobby farmers should be ignored in the main.

If my power bill went up because of massive resource hogging by a crypto farm, I'd be furious.  I'd probably get quite political about it, if not outright militant.


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## trog100 (Mar 18, 2018)

profits from large scale mining are very energy cost dependent.. they seek out places with very low energy costs.. the place quoted is such a place.. a rural boating fishing area probably with its own local power station supplying for whatever reason extra cheap power..

the miners move in because of the extra cheap power.. the local (extra cheap) power supply is probably very limited.. the only and obvious answer is to increase the energy price to more normal levels..

having said that.. mining profits are near none existent at the moment.. this will in fact increase the need for the large scale miners to seek out the extra cheap power.. china with its cheap state subsidized power was an ideal place for them to operate  but the government for political reasons has driven them out..

the general  state of crypto at the moment is at a critical point.. the recent price crash may change the entire scene..

my own mining energy costs at the moment could be considered zero.. simply because its being used to help heat my house.. 

trog


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## yotano211 (Mar 18, 2018)

trog100 said:


> profits from large scale mining are very energy cost dependent.. they seek out places with very low energy costs.. the place quoted is such a place.. a rural boating fishing area probably with its own local power station supplying for whatever reason extra cheap power..
> 
> the miners move in because of the extra cheap power.. the local (extra cheap) power supply is probably very limited.. the only and obvious answer is to increase the energy price to more normal levels..
> 
> ...


You can have all of my apartments heat right now. I havent lived at my apartment since last winter.


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## aldo5 (Mar 18, 2018)

and I was questioning my self these last 6 weeks "was it smart to sell used my gtx 1080 for 700$, could I have gotten more?" and I really needed that gpu because I used that both for gaming and mining... well now I see farmers start to sell used gtx 1080 ti for 700$ and vega 64 for 600$ (in local craigslist equivalent) and advertisments are still active (before 3 weeks these advertisments would be gone in minutes)... that is a good sign . I thought you miners will hold of little longer before panic sales... but I guess currency you mined and held (trading experts) will not be worth your electricity bill soon and gpus you bought up for 1000$ (used or new) will be less than 1/2 worth... and if nvida will move on to next gen (more powerfull and efficient for mining)... oh boy I cant w8 to get that gtx 1080 back for 250$? too soon to ask for that?


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## silkstone (Mar 18, 2018)

aldo5 said:


> and I was questioning my self these last 6 weeks "was it smart to sell used my gtx 1080 for 700$, could I have gotten more?" and I really needed that gpu because I used that both for gaming and mining... well now I see farmers start to sell used gtx 1080 ti for 700$ and vega 64 for 600$ (in local craigslist equivalent) and advertisments are still active (before 3 weeks these advertisments would be gone in minutes)... that is a good sign . I thought you miners will hold of little longer before panic sales... but I guess currency you mined and held (trading experts) will not be worth your electricity bill soon and gpus you bought up for 1000$ (used or new) will be less than 1/2 worth... and if nvida will move on to next gen (more powerfull and efficient for mining)... oh boy I cant w8 to get that gtx 1080 back for 250$? too soon to ask for that?



Yes, mining profits are right down. I'm getting maybe $300 a month for $100 in electricity right now. Back when it was booming, it was closer to $1k per month.

I'm going to keep mining while it's more economical to mine rather than buy. That way I can get free electricity and still hold some coins. Who's to say that there won't be another frenzy later this year?


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## aldo5 (Mar 18, 2018)

silkstone said:


> it was closer to $1k per month


what kind of rig you have? and when (if) you will dump it to the market? because you know - right now you still can sell used gpus for almost full price in ebay - but it can be too late if all will try to dump them.


silkstone said:


> Who's to say that there won't be another frenzy later this year


true, but it can go another -50% frenzy too - but that is all speculative toughts, and if one had info and talent to determien that (where price would be after time) - he would be not a millionare, but a billionare without single mining rig. so if one has that info and talent - he should feel free to go long or short anytime and to use levarage too - to get those billionzz real fazt 
I know many traders did hold their mined currencies when ETH was around 900$ saying  "it will go back to1400$+ and more sooner or later, I just will w8 and cash in then" - I guess there will be no Wallstreet traders from them anytime soon


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 18, 2018)

silkstone said:


> Who's to say that there won't be another frenzy later this year?


Driven by what?  Bitcoin isn't new and trendy any more.  The USD its tied to is shaky because the heydays of 2017 are over.


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## hat (Mar 18, 2018)

My two 1070s and i5 2400 aren't even making $3/day at this point. It's all relative to the price of btc though, if btc goes up again I'll have quite a bit more...

On the upside, it's all play money for me now. I found a way to make things a little cheaper and simpler for myself, so I won't have to sell my btc out of necessity anymore.

I might upgrade my computer with a nice 8600k or equivalent when the time comes once I've built up enough... This locked i5 system is starting to get a little old, and so is my plex server that the i5 will likely go to.


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## the54thvoid (Mar 18, 2018)

Unless another cryptocurrency comers along to rule them all, I can see the growth of ASIC mining diminishing the role of GPU's.  It would be good for (us gamers) if the crypto industry embraced the ASIC's and allowed GPU's to be used for their intended purpose.  We know they're being mass produced so here's hoping...


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## moproblems99 (Mar 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Bitcoin isn't new and trendy any more.



Pretty sure Bitcoin was new around circa 2009.  That said, it definitely doesn't appear trendy right now.


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## silkstone (Mar 18, 2018)

aldo5 said:


> what kind of rig you have? and when (if) you will dump it to the market? because you know - right now you still can sell used gpus for almost full price in ebay - but it can be too late if all will try to dump them.
> 
> true, but it can go another -50% frenzy too - but that is all speculative toughts, and if one had info and talent to determien that (where price would be after time) - he would be not a millionare, but a billionare without single mining rig. so if one has that info and talent - he should feel free to go long or short anytime and to use levarage too - to get those billionzz real fazt
> I know many traders did hold their mined currencies when ETH was around 900$ saying  "it will go back to1400$+ and more sooner or later, I just will w8 and cash in then" - I guess there will be no Wallstreet traders from them anytime soon



you are right, it could just as easily fall another 50%. My plan was always to sell 50% of the coins that I mine and keep the rest until 2020 and I've pretty much done that up to now.
I have 1x 1080Ti, 3x 1060 and 1x 1080, so not a big operation by any means. I've sold about $1800 worth of coins since Oct/Nov last year and still hold around $1000 which means I've paid my cards off already, if not all of the electricity. But hey, I got the cards for free (especially considering i had the 1080 for gaming anyway)
The 1080Ti cost $800
2 x 1060 3gb cost $500 for both
1 x 1060 6Gb cost $300

Making a total of around $1600, not counting the cost of the 1080.

I wouldn't bother selling the cards, even if the prices continue to fall and it becomes impossible to mine. I don't really want to sell ex-mining cards and I have 3 PCs they can be used in and I could build another that would be used leaving just 1 spare card. I might consider exchanging this up for a 1080Ti to do SLI. I actually wanted to do this before, but I couldn't find a WC one at a reasonable price. They get too hot to run in SLI with aircooling solutions or I would have done this before.

At the end of the day, if it all goes to hell, I still have my free cards


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## R-T-B (Mar 20, 2018)

silkstone said:


> At the end of the day, if it all goes to hell, I still have my free cards



I hate to be greedy, but my cards will probably go that route as well rather than the firesale I planned.  They'll still go to a gamer at this years end, the gamer in question will just be in the family (my younger brother, in this case).


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## dorsetknob (Mar 20, 2018)

USA BANS FIRST CRYPTO CURRENCY
The US has formally banned the trade of Venezuela's new state-backed cryptocurrency.
The announcement came after an executive order by the Trump administration that lists the cryptocoins among the items prohibited by a new set of sanctions on the South American country.

"All transactions related to, provision of financing for, and other dealings in, by a United States person or within the United States, any digital currency, digital coin, or digital token, that was issued by, for, or on behalf of the Government of Venezuela on or after January 9, 2018, are prohibited as of the effective date of this order," the executive order reads.

>>>>>............................................................................................................................................<<<
The Start of a Slippy Slope ... or .....
Full story here   >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/19/trump_86s_venezuelan_petro_cryptocoins_in_the_us/


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## R-T-B (Mar 20, 2018)

heh, that's just Trumps anti-venezuela fetish getting the best of him again.  I wouldn't call it a slippery slope to anything but more venezuela related bans.

Still, the irony does not escape me that the first crypto outlawed by the USA isn't even mined...


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## trog100 (Mar 20, 2018)

the US hasnt banned any crypto.. simply banned american citizens  from buying or selling a particular version of it..

pure politics and an attack on venezuela with the intention of doing it damage..

such actions are the very thing that crypto is about.. avoiding things like trade sanctions.. the fact that the US is behind such things dosnt make them right..

trog


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## xkm1948 (Mar 20, 2018)

Since all blockchain algorithm use some sort of proof based calculations. Some researchers have been thinking of utilizing the enthusiasm for scientific computing. Algorithm can be developed so all end miner can help aligning massive amount of DNA sequence data for all kinds of genetic disorder. This way miner get a coin and the scientific community gets problem solved. 

This will be different from the protein folding, as this is basically exploring all possible genetic mutation. Who knows, maybe we can launch a Genetic-coin? Would people mine that though?


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## R-T-B (Mar 20, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Since all blockchain algorithm use some sort of proof based calculations. Some researchers have been thinking of utilizing the enthusiasm for scientific computing. Algorithm can be developed so all end miner can help aligning massive amount of DNA sequence data for all kinds of genetic disorder. This way miner get a coin and the scientific community gets problem solved.
> 
> This will be different from the protein folding, as this is basically exploring all possible genetic mutation. Who knows, maybe we can launch a Genetic-coin? Would people mine that though?



I would.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Mar 20, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Since all blockchain algorithm use some sort of proof based calculations. Some researchers have been thinking of utilizing the enthusiasm for scientific computing. Algorithm can be developed so all end miner can help aligning massive amount of DNA sequence data for all kinds of genetic disorder. This way miner get a coin and the scientific community gets problem solved.
> 
> This will be different from the protein folding, as this is basically exploring all possible genetic mutation. Who knows, maybe we can launch a Genetic-coin? Would people mine that though?





R-T-B said:


> I would.


Me too but that would not work out any better for gamers and then where would their hate get directed, there's also foldingcoin out afaik


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 20, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Me too but that would not work out any better for gamers and then where would their hate get directed, there's also foldingcoin out afaik



Plus CureCoin


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 20, 2018)

WTF!!!

*Fortune - Bitcoin's Blockchain Contains "Hundreds of Links" to Child Pornography*



			
				Fortune said:
			
		

> “As a result, it could become illegal (or even already is today) to possess the blockchain, which is required to participate in Bitcoin.”


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 20, 2018)

Xzibit said:


> WTF!!!
> 
> *Fortune - Bitcoin's Blockchain Contains "Hundreds of Links" to Child Pornography*



That's been known for a while now.  Sadly, nature of blockchain and most likely done by outside sabautuers to try and shut down bitcoin.

The only thing saving it is that these are mere links, not content (many of them onion domains and/or shortened via web shorteners) and they are not easily accessible.  They are effectively like a transaction "comment" with tweet char limitations.

At least in the USA, you could probably argue freedom of speech on this one.  And in the 1st world, no one is going to prosecute over this.

All in all, big hoot about nothing.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Mar 20, 2018)

Xzibit said:


> WTF!!!
> 
> *Fortune - Bitcoin's Blockchain Contains "Hundreds of Links" to Child Pornography*





R-T-B said:


> That's been known for a while now.  Sadly, nature of blockchain and most likely done by outside sabautuers to try and shut down bitcoin.
> 
> The only thing saving it is that these are mere links, not content (many of them onion domains and/or shortened via web shorteners) and they are not easily accessible.  They are effectively like a transaction "comment" with tweet char limitations.
> 
> ...



Bitcoin gains a little traction and finally breaks $9k after a week down to almost $8K and has been holding close to it for a bit now....then something like this comes out? Someone trying to push anything they can to keep it down....conspiracy theory? Or maybe it's just a coincidence? Or maybe I'm just making things up to entertain my mind.....the world may never know.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 20, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> That's been known for a while now.  Sadly, nature of blockchain and most likely done by outside sabautuers to try and shut down bitcoin.
> 
> *The only thing saving it is that these are mere links, not content* (many of them onion domains and/or shortened via web shorteners) and they are not easily accessible.  They are effectively like a transaction "comment" with tweet char limitations.
> 
> ...



Images not links



			
				RWTH said:
			
		

> The remaining instance is an *image depicting mild nudity of a young woman*. In an online forum this image is claimed to show child pornography, albeit this claim cannot be verified (due to ethical concerns we refrain from providing a citation). Notably, *two of the explicit images *were only detected by our suspicioustransaction detector, i.e., they were not inserted via known services.



The links are refered to as



			
				RWTH said:
			
		

> Two of them are backups of link lists to child pornography, containing 274 links to websites, 142 of which refer to Tor hidden services







neatfeatguy said:


> Bitcoin gains a little traction and finally breaks $9k after a week down to almost $8K and has been holding close to it for a bit now....then something like this comes out? Someone trying to push anything they can to keep it down....conspiracy theory? Or maybe it's just a coincidence? Or maybe I'm just making things up to entertain my mind.....the world may never know.



It was found in a study by RWTH Aachen University, Germany


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 20, 2018)

Xzibit said:


> Images not links
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm curious how they fit anything that could fit the definition of a "pornographic image" in the 255 char byte comment field.  Something is missing here, or their definition of "pornographic" isn't something most would even consider.

This is effectively hexidecimal grade porn at this point.

It's also interesting to note that they came from no known bitcoin service... certainly speaks to outside sabotage.


----------



## Xzibit (Mar 20, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I'm curious how they fit anything that could fit the definition of a "pornographic image" in the 255 char byte comment field.  Something is missing here, or their definition of "pornographic" isn't something most would even consider.
> 
> This is effectively hexidecimal grade porn at this point.
> 
> It's also interesting to note that they came from no known bitcoin service... certainly speaks to outside sabotage.



Isn't there a way to jettison this info from the chain.

Essentially you have people verifying and distributing illegal information. Not just Childporn but other types the study points out in certain countries.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 20, 2018)

Xzibit said:


> Isn't there a way to jettison this info from the chain.



Not without breaking the fundamentals of blockchain, I think.

It might be possible to just jetison the comment section but I am unsure and it certainly would require client consensus.

Honestly the comment field is a long dead tool anyways.  Anyone with a enough power to find a block doesn't need his "tweet," he already made a shitton of money.

EDIT:  Slightly related "porn" from reddit:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/PrequelMemes/comments/85vn10


----------



## damian246 (Mar 22, 2018)

Why worry about bitcoins? The moment no business will take it the entire virtual coin will collapse. 
The higher that coin climbs the most likely it  becomes that the wallets take off with customers money.


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 22, 2018)

damian246 said:


> Why worry about bitcoins? The moment no business will take it the entire virtual coin will collapse.
> The higher that coin climbs the most likely it  becomes that the wallets take off with customers money.



Very few businesses take bitcoins at all right now, and it still isn't dead. The best thing for Bitcoin would be for businesses to adopt it, but it's not dependent on that at all, as proven by its own existence. 

And how would "wallets" take off with customers' money? That's not how wallets work. If you mean exchanges and wallet services like Coinbase... well if you leave a large amount of money in a hot wallet like that, it's your own fault.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 23, 2018)

i just looked at my 10 x 1070 eth mining set up.. its producing less than 12 dollars US per day.. bitcoin is now holding its own better than the other alt coins.. its a shame i dont have much of it.. he he..

at this rate allowing for hardware costs and depreciation.. gpu mining is not viable.. people looking for roi are never going to see it.. 

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 23, 2018)

I have a set amount that I am aiming for and then I am done.  I am at the point right now where I am basically just paying for power, although my whole house not just the rigs.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 23, 2018)

I'm in it to support the network more than anything, so the mining will continue.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 23, 2018)

the thing is gpus still fetch good money.. very soon they could be two a penny..

to sell (now) or not to sell that is the question.. he he

when or if a mass used gpu sell off takes place.. things should get interesting.. 

i am still optimistically waiting for crypto prices to take off again.. but i could be well wrong thinking this way.. but i am still holding on.. he he

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 23, 2018)

Totally aside, I just noticed I have "cryptocurrency expert" underneath my posts. Is that some kind of tongue in cheek thing, lol?


----------



## hat (Mar 23, 2018)

It's the new badge system. You must have enough likes in this subforum to have earned it.

I'm an expert of nothing


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 23, 2018)

Ah I see. I guess I hadn't noticed lol. Thanks.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Mar 23, 2018)

hat said:


> It's the new badge system. You must have enough likes in this subforum to have earned it.
> 
> I'm an expert of nothing



You've managed to be around for 10 years - you're an expert of.....longevity!

Now me, I got nothing. Probably the bunny's fault.....looking all cute there as my avatar.

Even if trog only pulls on average $12 a day from here on out thru the end of the year, 283 days left at $12 = $3,396 for the year. I wouldn't mind an extra $3-4K a year. But then again, new GPUs could be coming out before then. So he's on the teeter-totter right now. On one end, if things don't really pick back up and just stay where they are he makes some money. On the other end if he does go about selling out his 10 GTX 1070s before the price on them drops he'll make more money selling them over mining for the rest of the year (if mining profitability doesn't go back up).

Selling the 1070s used right now for around $450-500, that means right now pull in $4500-5000 selling them. Or, sit on them, keep mining and hope mining becomes more profitable.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 23, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the thing is gpus still fetch good money.. very soon they could be two a penny..



I have no plans to sell regardless of circumstances.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 23, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I have no plans to sell regardless of circumstances.



you dont count mr frog.. you are doing it for benefit or science or something like that.. me and a few other no doubt would be thinking about more mundane things like dare i say it.. money.. 

i have 8 x 1070 cards i could sell.. lets say £300 quid each or £2400 total.. my daily machine has a couple but i would have them anyways so they dont count.. 

i am pretty sure i aint gonna make that mining.. common sense says sell... but the stubborn part of me says dont give up keep going until there is no more going to be gone.. he he

one thing is for sure.. the best advice for those thinking about spending money on hardware just to mine with is.. dont.. he he

the big fear of course is that crypto prices keep dropping intil there really is no point in mining.. if we reach that point.. to the great joy of the gaming fraternity.. graphics cards really will be worth bugger all 

at this point in time a crystal ball would be a handy item to have.. 

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 23, 2018)

trog100 said:


> you are doing it for benefit or science..


Some times Science Pay's  ask a few Nobel Prize winners


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 23, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Some times Science Pay's  ask a few Nobel Prize winners



W1zzard pays my nobel prize.


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 23, 2018)

allow me to correct your dyslectic spelling


R-T-B said:


> W1zzard pays my nobble prize.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 23, 2018)

Frogs can't spell, so jokes on you.

(or count)


----------



## cdawall (Mar 23, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Frogs can't spell, so jokes on you.
> 
> (or count)



I remember the budweiser frogs could make words though


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 23, 2018)

cdawall said:


> I remember the budweiser frogs could make words though



Yep, dictating to Cortana is how I post.


----------



## silkstone (Mar 24, 2018)

trog100 said:


> you dont count mr frog.. you are doing it for benefit or science or something like that.. me and a few other no doubt would be thinking about more mundane things like dare i say it.. money..
> 
> i have 8 x 1070 cards i could sell.. lets say £300 quid each or £2400 total.. my daily machine has a couple but i would have them anyways so they dont count..
> 
> ...



If crypto markets are anything like the stock market, then one thing is for certain. There will be highs and there will be lows. It will go up and it will go down.
From watching cryptos, they do seem to behave very similar, just on a shorter time-scale with crazier swings. Whether or not it follows the same, long-term path that stock markets do is the real question.

If anyone says that they know what will happen with cryptos, one way or another they are lying or deluded. My personal opinion is that there is always going to be volatility and an upward trend. The reasoning being this. There is a fair bit of core-support for the markets, whales and others with money invested who keep a baseline. After a period of ups and downs, other people loose interest in the markets and cash out, but the core supporters keep that baseline and volatility reduces. As soon as the volatility goes down, the markets become attractive again, people invest and increase volatility until the cycle repeats all over again, but each time increasing the level of core support.

Make yourself a long-term plan, one that you can live with no matter which way it all goes, and stick to it.

If your plan is to Hodl until 20xx, then do it, just be aware you could loose a lot.
If it is sell now and take the profit, do it, but be aware that no risk = no reward.

Mine is somewhere 1/2 way. I'm keeping my mining hardware. Keeping 50% of the coins until 2020 when things should be clearer. I'll sell every couple of months to cover the majority of my electricity and the rest I'll keep to sell on upswings (if they happen).


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 24, 2018)

May is my barometer.  I will shutdown and do a reevaluation.  If it is worth proceeding I will continue mining, if not some nephews will be getting a new (to them) gpu.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 24, 2018)

silkstone said:


> After a period of ups and downs, other people loose interest in the markets and cash out, but the core supporters keep that baseline and volatility reduces. As soon as the volatility goes down, the markets become attractive again, people invest and increase volatility until the cycle repeats all over again, but each time increasing the level of core support.


Stocks are that way because they're fundamentally tied to GDP which trends up.  Even when there's a recession/depression, the fact there's more people means productivity has to increase to meet demand so GDP should recover.  Nothing short of a global economic apocalypse will stop that trend.

Cryptocurrency has nothing and literally is nothing.  The world knows this now so the market is shriveling.  I don't know if it will stop but it's entirely possible that it becomes more costly to mine cryptocurrency than it is worth.  In which case, the currency stops growing and all that's left is transactions.  Can transaction fees sustain the network?  If yes, it will linger.  If no, the network will break down and become worth less than the paper it isn't printed on.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 24, 2018)

ford.. fiat currency has nothing and the world knows this now and the stock markets will start to shrivel.. in fact if you take look they already are doing.. he he

the joke of it is ford.. everything you have said about crypto can equally be said about fiat currency and the financial markets in general.. 

trog


----------



## silkstone (Mar 24, 2018)

silkstone said:


> If crypto markets are anything like the stock market, then one thing is for certain. There will be highs and there will be lows. It will go up and it will go down.
> From watching cryptos, they do seem to behave very similar, just on a shorter time-scale with crazier swings. Whether or not it follows the same, long-term path that stock markets do is the real question.
> 
> If anyone says that they know what will happen with cryptos, one way or another they are lying or deluded.
> ...





FordGT90Concept said:


> Stocks are that way because they're fundamentally tied to GDP which trends up.  Even when there's a recession/depression, the fact there's more people means productivity has to increase to meet demand so GDP should recover.  Nothing short of a global economic apocalypse will stop that trend.
> 
> Cryptocurrency has nothing and literally is nothing.  The world knows this now so the market is shriveling.  I don't know if it will stop but it's entirely possible that it becomes more costly to mine cryptocurrency than it is worth.  In which case, the currency stops growing and all that's left is transactions.  Can transaction fees sustain the network?  If yes, it will linger.  If no, the network will break down and become worth less than the paper it isn't printed on.



Isn't that part of the reason some of them are moving to PoS? 
The rationale for rises in stock market price hold for cryptocurrency too, that is if you make one big assumption, people will use them for transactions. As the economy grows, so does the number of transactions, so does their value, or am i missing something?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 24, 2018)

trog100 said:


> ford.. fiat currency has nothing and the world...


Full faith and credit of the economy that created it.  USD and EU are strong because their economies are strong.  Venezula is weak because their economy is faltering (very dependent on oil which is going for cheap now).



silkstone said:


> The rationale for rises in stock market price hold for cryptocurrency too, that is if you make one big assumption, people will use them for transactions. As the economy grows, so does the number of transactions, so does their value, or am i missing something?


In terms of transactions, BTC has already shrunk to late 2015 levels:
https://charts.bitcoin.com/chart/daily-transactions

There aren't many entities that make money on transactions in meat space.  The only that comes to mind is debit/credit cards.  The logic here is that customers swiping a card means cashiers can handle more customers than trying to swap dollars and cents.  The cost of the fiat currency is baked into itself.  It isn't a fee.  This is a retarding factor of cryptocurrency because processing transactions is costly and there's no stakeholders that have a different means to foot the bill.

TL;DR: cryptocurrency double dips: it's taxed by governments via capital gains and it's taxed by the network via transaction fees.  Transaction fees represent entropy for crypto.  That entropy has already caused a lot of merchants to refuse it.


----------



## hat (Mar 25, 2018)

Someone mentioned the current mining difficulty level... I wonder if it could potentially drop, as less miners might be on the network given the current profitability?


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 25, 2018)

hat said:


> Someone mentioned the current mining difficulty level... I wonder if it could potentially drop, as less miners might be on the network given the current profitability?



It has dropped but not by a comparable margin.  Ether lost nearly half its value but difficulty only dropped by < 5%.


----------



## erocker (Mar 25, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Yep, dictating to Cortana is how I post.



If it were _really_ Cortana it would read:



			
				R-T-B via Cortana said:
			
		

> Yes, Dick Tracy drinks Corona's on his boat.


----------



## yotano211 (Mar 25, 2018)

hat said:


> Someone mentioned the current mining difficulty level... I wonder if it could potentially drop, as less miners might be on the network given the current profitability?


The only thing I know is that zcash difficulty level went up like crazy since I started mining ZEC 1.5 months ago.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 25, 2018)

none of the economies you mentioned ford are strong.. they are all teetering on the edge all kept afloat by cheap money and excessive dept.. some may appear relatively strong compared to others but the whole lot is like pack of cards that could come down at any minute.. stocks are artificially inflated by company buy backs (in a huge bubble) all based on freely available cheap money.. the whole lot is very dodgy ford.. i am surprised you appear not to dont know this..

as i say all the negatives you keep coming up with about crypto can equally be said about the so called real economy.. its all fake with nothing real behind it to back it up except "faith"... pretty much like crypto..

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 25, 2018)

What is GDP and why is it so important to economists and investors?

US GDP $19.3 trillion
EU GDP $17.1 trillion

That's wealth _created_ every year.  Crypto doesn't even create wealth.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 25, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Crypto doesn't even create wealth.



Debatable.  It doesn't bring new currency into existence, but neither does most of the activities in GDP or we'd have rampant inflation.  What's important is money is changing hands.  And mining CAN be considered a "service" and thus part of the GDP.


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 25, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> And mining CAN be considered a "service" and thus part of the GDP.



Sisterhood of the night provide a Service and thats a good chunk of change  but that is never factored into GDP ( they are part of the Financial Service Industry )


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 25, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Debatable.  It doesn't bring new currency into existence, but neither does most of the activities in GDP or we'd have rampant inflation.  What's important is money is changing hands.  And mining CAN be considered a "service" and thus part of the GDP.


It's more of a redistribution of wealth; not the creation of new wealth.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 25, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's more of a redistribution of wealth; not the creation of new wealth.



Riddle me this:  Since we aren't printing currency, what's the difference?

EDIT:  Oh wait, I know!   production of a product or beneficial upgrade to infrastructure, etc...  oh wow, high school economics just came back. 

No reply neccesary, just made a fool of myself.


----------



## hat (Mar 30, 2018)

Going down more and more. I hoped to build up enough to buy a new rig eventually. Maybe I'll have enough when new hardware comes out and all this processor security nonsense is done with. I'd hate to wind up with a coffee lake system that runs like my current system because of crappy patches anyways...

I dunno if there is or not, but if not, there really should be an option to easily enable or disable the patch. I understand server farms would probably need it, but most likely not the home user...


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 30, 2018)

hat said:


> dunno if there is or not, but if not, there really should be an option to easily enable or disable the patch.



There is.  Registry keys exist to manage the patches.  InSpectre run as Administrator will let you manage them easily.


----------



## hat (Mar 30, 2018)

I was thinking more along the lines of something in the BIOS...

Looks like I was protected against Meltdown, but not Spectre. It said my performance was slower as well. Now I'm vulnerable to Meltdown, but with good performance.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 30, 2018)

hat said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of something in the BIOS...



I mean, Meltdown is patched entirely os-side, so nope on that front.

Spectre is also microcode, so running old microcode bios would do the trick, but thats really all you can do other than just use the tool I mentioned (which is much easier).



hat said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of something in the BIOS...
> 
> Looks like I was protected against Meltdown, but not Spectre. It said my performance was slower as well. Now I'm vulnerable to Meltdown, but with good performance.



So with meltdown disabled you are already at 100% performance honestly.  Just be cautious about malware and thats probably fine.


----------



## hat (Mar 30, 2018)

It was previously enabled, but is now disabled. Funny thing is I haven't noticed anything running any slower... I wonder if it's limited to specific types of workloads I don't really mess with...


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 30, 2018)

hat said:


> It was previously enabled, but is now disabled. Funny thing is I haven't noticed anything running any slower... I wonder if it's limited to specific types of workloads I don't really mess with...



Most IO functions I understand.  Paging and such.  Not something the average gamer does a lot of I figure.

We're way off topic, though.  Course correction!


----------



## aldo5 (Mar 30, 2018)

first time I see today used gtx 1080 TI's (few months used - for mining of course) hitting under 600$ in my local parts adds... that is the price I sold my 1.5 year used gtx 1070 around 8 weeks ago (and I was beating my self  "could I have got more or sold little later"). Tempting to grab gtx 1080 ti for the same money for gaming right now... but I think here is more movement down - I mean miners only get 1/5? or less? what they got 8 weeks ago and difficulty is still rising because no farms are pulling the plug, because they invested so much - only thing they can do now is mine and hold the crypto and pray for overall crypto price rise - like you all miners do, but funny thing is - that holding that crypto probably made them like -30% losses for last 4 weeks alone. Imagine nvida will paper launch new generation soon (with raytrace and some other marketing BS) - then even for gamers used gtx 1080 ti for 300$? will be undesirable. Or imagine those ETH ASIC finally connect online and the huge ETH farms will have to switch away from ETH to whatever small miners are mining today to gets somewhat decent return (imagine difficulty spike).


----------



## trog100 (Mar 30, 2018)

my eth mining 10 x 1070 cards is now showing less than one dollar per day per card.. about .8/9 to be more exact... 

basically for me it aint worth running the rigs for the tiny amount of power costs.. 

and to top it all off defender now thinks its a bloody virus and has deleted the claymore executable.. its just done this on both my mining machines.. they have been running for six months this has to be a defender update.. 

i am back to mining on nicehash but maybe not for that long.. as i say it aint really worth running the rigs for the tiny gain over power costs..

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 30, 2018)

I shut down yesterday myself. Wear and tear on the cards isn't worth the 20 cents a day profit. It'll be back up eventually... just waiting to flip the switch back on.


----------



## cdawall (Mar 30, 2018)

trog100 said:


> my eth mining 10 x 1070 cards is now showing less than one dollar per day per card.. about .8/9 to be more exact...
> 
> basically for me it aint worth running the rigs for the tiny amount of power costs..
> 
> ...



That is purely because like we told you at the beginning your power cost was too high. I am still making 50% profit to power.


----------



## LFaWolf (Mar 30, 2018)

cdawall said:


> That is purely because like we told you at the beginning your power cost was too high. I am still making 50% profit to power.


Who is your electric company and how much do you pay per kWh? I know most US companies are tier based - once you go over a tier you pay a higher tier rate. All your mining rigs must have pushed you to the higher tier rate, right?


----------



## trog100 (Mar 30, 2018)

cdawall said:


> That is purely because like we told you at the beginning your power cost was too high. I am still making 50% profit to power.



we dont choose the price we pay for power.. you might be lucky and live in a place with cheap power i dont.. we have to cope with what we have..

but for me and i recon many others.. gpu mining is near dead.. plus 50% profit over power costs (more so if the power is cheap) aint exactly exciting for small miners.. it aint a real 50% ether if you count in hardware costs.. in fact in by books its still a net loss..


trog

ps... anybody have any ideas as regards windows 10 defenders sudden dislike of my claymore eth miner... chrome blocks it and  wont download it.. i did manage another browser download but as soon as i unzip it.. win 10 defender pounces..


----------



## verycharbroiled (Mar 30, 2018)

just put all miners in a folder (say "c:\miners") and add to your av exclusion list. make sure it includes subfolders (may be a check box or something).

zero problems since then.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 30, 2018)

my syste


verycharbroiled said:


> just put all miners in a folder (say "c:\miners") and add to your av exclusion list. make sure it includes subfolders (may be a check box or something).
> 
> zero problems since then.



my systems have been working fine for the last six months.. until today... something has happened and i think its to do with windows defender.. 

defender suddenly came up with a threat warning and zapped the claymore executable.. the same one i have been running for months.. this was on my desktop machine.. a couple of hours later i checked my dedicated mining rig.. low and behold defender had zapped the claymore executable on that one as well... 

i havnt figured out quite what is going on yet.. also as soon as i unzip a newly downloaded zip defender zapps that as well... i tried to switch the f-cking thing off but could not figure out how to do that ether.. ??

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 30, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i havnt figured out quite what is going on yet.. also as soon as i unzip a newly downloaded zip defender zapps that as well.



 Windows Defender   "Now Defending the virtue of GPU's from working miners 
No Seriously 
you need to exclude the Directorys used  by your Miner in defender Settings ( and if you create a new directory for a new downloaded to be extracted to you need to exclude that before download and extraction)


----------



## trog100 (Mar 31, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Windows Defender   "Now Defending the virtue of GPU's from working miners
> No Seriously
> you need to exclude the Directorys used  by your Miner in defender Settings ( and if you create a new directory for a new downloaded to be extracted to you need to exclude that before download and extraction)



i have never fiddled with defender settings before..never had to..  but i will try and exclude a folder and test the claymore unzip in it.. it only goes for it when its unzipped.. it dosnt mind a zipped version.. he he

trog


----------



## HTC (Mar 31, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i have never fiddled with defender settings before..never had to..  but i will try and exclude a folder and test the claymore unzip in it.. *it only goes for it when its unzipped..* it dosnt mind a zipped version.. he he
> 
> trog



Ever considered the possibility that the claymore thing may actually be flagged by Windows Defender for a good reason? Perhaps it detects something in that prog that shouldn't be there?

I know zero about that program so i could be 100% wrong here.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 31, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> No Seriously
> you need to exclude the Directorys used by your Miner in defender Settings


Or you could use an antivirus/antimalware suite that is less irritating. I do not use WinDefend at all.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Mar 31, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Or you could use an antivirus/antimalware suite that is less irritating. I do not use WinDefend at all.


They are playing to the lowest common denominator and miners are assuming all the risk.  99% of Windows users AREN'T into cryptomining.  They are being protected from the ever growing frequency of cryptomining malware out there.  Legitimate miners should be savy enough to keep their executables in a folder that is excluded from security scanners.  They do take all the risk that these mining executables are playing nicely and not raping your system though!


----------



## cdawall (Mar 31, 2018)

trog100 said:


> we dont choose the price we pay for power.. you might be lucky and live in a place with cheap power i dont.. we have to cope with what we have..
> 
> but for me and i recon many others.. gpu mining is near dead.. plus 50% profit over power costs (more so if the power is cheap) aint exactly exciting for small miners.. it aint a real 50% ether if you count in hardware costs.. in fact in by books its still a net loss..
> 
> ...



Ah I live in America we very much do get to pick power cost. I also broke even on hardware cost last year...

As for the antivirus nonsense, I have defender disabled via the registry on all my machines...



LFaWolf said:


> Who is your electric company and how much do you pay per kWh? I know most US companies are tier based - once you go over a tier you pay a higher tier rate. All your mining rigs must have pushed you to the higher tier rate, right?



9 cents a kw/h there is no tier flat rate that's with delivery fee included as well as taxes. Using big energy AKA NRG.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Mar 31, 2018)

Divide Overflow said:


> They are playing to the lowest common denominator and miners are assuming all the risk.  99% of Windows users AREN'T into cryptomining.  They are being protected from the ever growing frequency of cryptomining malware out there.  Legitimate miners should be savy enough to keep their executables in a folder that is excluded from security scanners.  They do take all the risk that these mining executables are playing nicely and not raping your system though!


Thats part of why they should be monitored closely and have logs, they do have logs.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 31, 2018)

cdawall said:


> As for the antivirus nonsense, I have defender disabled via the registry on all my machines...


I go so far as to deleting the contents of the Windows Defender folders, taking ownership and locking the system out of access from said folders so they can't be restored with an update. I do a similar thing with the Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player folders.


----------



## LFaWolf (Mar 31, 2018)

cdawall said:


> Ah I live in America we very much do get to pick power cost. I also broke even on hardware cost last year...
> 
> 9 cents a kw/h there is no tier flat rate that's with delivery fee included as well as taxes. Using big energy AKA NRG.



That is super cheap electricity price. Some places here in CA like SF pay more than double of that amount.


----------



## yotano211 (Mar 31, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> That is super cheap electricity price. Some places here in CA like SF pay more than double of that amount.


I pay about 8 to 8.5 cents, when I had 8 mining rigs at my friends house in CA, I was paying 30 cents. That lasted only 2 months, I put him into the top tier power usage for those 2 months. I personally drove from Oklahoma to CA to pick up the mining rigs.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 31, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> That is super cheap electricity price. Some places here in CA like SF pay more than double of that amount.


California buys ridiculous amounts of power from neighboring states.  e.g. much of the power produced at Hoover Dam goes to CA and so does a lot of nuclear power produced near Phoenix.  California has about the worst energy policy in the world. [Forbes] California's Growing Imported Electricity Problem

Last I checked, the first Mwh is expensive here (covers grid maintenance, taxes, etc.). After that it is 0.05211/kwh.  I'm always over a Mwh because of heating/cooling so I only look at the latter.


----------



## yesyesloud (Mar 31, 2018)

trog100 said:


> anybody have any ideas as regards windows 10 defenders sudden dislike of my claymore eth miner... chrome blocks it and  wont download it.. i did manage another browser download but as soon as i unzip it.. win 10 defender pounces..


Linux mining. A rather comprehensive guide comes in handy...

Prior to doing what's described in that guide, I suggest you quick install Xubuntu on another drive with UNetbootin, it's pretty straightforward: just pick Xubuntu 14.04_Live_X64 (distribution), choose the right destination drive and make sure to add "space used to preserve files across reboots", ~16GB may exceed your modern mining needs. Then boot it from BIOS/(U)EFI. You may want to disable "secure boot" and/or other BIOS/(U)EFI options that prevent it from booting up. Also, install latest proprietary drivers.

The aforementioned approach will save you the hassle and potential issues of setting up a different bootloader for a dual-boot setup, leaving your Windows install untouched, but you could as well go the other way.

Xubuntu is a lightweight Ubuntu version, only featuring a different, less bloated _desktop environment _(UI). I suggested 14.04 because the default disc image was not patched for meltdown or spectre (several users reported a performance hit on patched kernels). You may want to disable automatic updates. If you're otherwise concerned about those exploits, pick 16.04.

Not sure if a Linux VM hosted by W10 would earn you anything near what bare metal does, I'd advise against it to maximize profits.

You can also go minimal when you feel comfortable with the command line.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 1, 2018)

the odd thing is windows defender has been happy running my claymore mining software since august of last year.. not the slightest problem... 

then all at once it decides to remove the software its been happy with for months.. one machine i would think fluke.. two machines means something has changed in windows defender.. 

its now deleted software it was previously happy with.. i dont think for one second i am the only one that this has happened to.. i would guess a whole bunch of folks have had their mining systems suddenly f-cked up by windows.. 

i havnt got round to sorting it yet.. i just switched over to nicehash.. plus mining is making sod all so it aint that important.. 

trog


----------



## HTC (Apr 1, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the odd thing is windows defender has been happy running my claymore mining software since august of last year.. not the slightest problem...
> 
> *then all at once it decides to remove the software its been happy with for months.. one machine i would think fluke.. two machines means something has changed in windows defender..
> 
> ...



Have you changed the claymore mining software in any way? Perhaps an update to that program or something? Maybe that's what's causing Defender to flag it.

Could also be Defender detecting a false positive: have you tried searching the web for other people complaining of the same thing?

It could also be that Defender wasn't detecting something in previous versions of the software but the current version picks it up. Has it occurred to you that perhaps that claymore mining software has had (whatever makes Defender flag it) all along?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 1, 2018)

HTC said:


> It could also be that Defender wasn't detecting something in previous versions of the software but the current version picks it up. Has it occurred to you that perhaps that claymore mining software has had (whatever makes Defender flag it) all along?


Defender is a pain in the neck and irritating for sure. Deleting it completely and replacing with something competent is the better move.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 1, 2018)

HTC said:


> It could also be that Defender wasn't detecting something in previous versions of the software but the current version picks it up. Has it occurred to you that perhaps that claymore mining software has had (whatever makes Defender flag it) all along?



What makes it flag it is malware often includes the (otherwise legitimate) claymore miner to mine for the malware.  Windows just finds it easier to blacklist it entirely than attempt to filter through this.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Windows just finds it easier to blacklist it entirely than attempt to filter through this.


Right! And Microsoft does a lot of this. It's either incompetent, laziness, deliberate or a combination of these. Severely irritating.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Right! And Microsoft does a lot of this. It's either incompetent, laziness, deliberate or a combination of these. Severely irritating.



My vote is all three.  Damn them for DirectX or I wouldn't even bother with them.



trog100 said:


> i would guess a whole bunch of folks have had their mining systems suddenly f-cked up by windows



I dealt with this a few weeks ago but just excluding my mining folders.


----------



## HTC (Apr 1, 2018)

According to this, there are a lot more people affected.

Apparently, "trojan:win32/ditertag.b" triggers Defender.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 1, 2018)

HTC said:


> According to this, there are a lot more people affected.
> 
> Apparently, "trojan:win32/ditertag.b" triggers Defender.



Yep, it's basically to ensure he gets his devfee.  It's Trojan-like behavior, but described in the license so legit.

If this was a DRM doing this, it would probably get whitelisted.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 1, 2018)

If it were DRM, the executable would be signed by a known party (e.g. SecuROM is signed by Sony DADC).

It apparently uses VirtualProtectEx but I'm not sure how nor why.

Tried researching how dietertag.b works and not finding any more information than the generic Microsoft page.


----------



## HTC (Apr 1, 2018)

According to the reddit page i linked earlier, this is the solution:


Disable Windows Real-Time Protection
Disable Cloud-delivered protection
Copy the .exe back over to the affected machine.
Add the .exe to the windows 10 defender exclusion list
Enable windows defender again to see if it would removed it again.
Startup claymore again.
Here is how to add an exclusion:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...dd-an-exclusion-to-windows-defender-antivirus


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If it were DRM, the executable would be signed by a known party (e.g. SecuROM is signed by Sony DADC).



No, not necessarily.

That's only true if it's triple A DRM.  It can still be DRM that some guy cooked in his basement and fit the term "digital rights management," which is precisely what this is attempting to do:  Secure his 2% devfee and prevent redirects.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> No, not necessarily.
> 
> That's only true if it's triple A DRM.  It can still be DRM that some guy cooked in his basement and fit the term "digital rights management," which is precisely what this is attempting to do:  Secure his 2% devfee and prevent redirects.



this seems to be the gist of it.. in my case and i imaging many others.. defender is now zapping it (new virus definitions) whereas previously it wasnt.. it quarantines the claymore executable instantly..

chrome also refuses to download it.. whereas previously it didnt..  i used my midori browser to get a new zip.. 

trog


----------



## zelnep (Apr 1, 2018)

man oh man -  I had left around 100$ in ETH and 100$ in XMR... now it is like 60-ish$ total. I was watching how prices hit new lows, then volume did increase and I was like "oh boy - now it is going to bounce back up - this was the dip of the month" - but nothing I mean I guess I will lose not only those 140$ (100+100 - 60), but 195$ soon. well at least good that I sold my last gtx 1080 few weeks ago for 700$, I can pick up less used gtx 1080ti for 600$ now. 
But I wonder how you deal with it? I I mean some of you must lose not 140$ but thousands at this point (not to mention in your multi GPU rig price reduction) and you all just talk here about if defender blocks your nicehash  and how much cents for electricity


----------



## trog100 (Apr 1, 2018)

zelnep said:


> man oh man -  I had left around 100$ in ETH and 100$ in XMR... now it is like 60-ish$ total. I was watching how prices hit new lows, then volume did increase and I was like "oh boy - now it is going to bounce back up - this was the dip of the month" - but nothing I mean I guess I will lose not only those 140$ (100+100 - 60), but 195$ soon. well at least good that I sold my last gtx 1080 few weeks ago for 700$, I can pick up less used gtx 1080ti for 600$ now.
> But I wonder how you deal with it? I I mean some of you must lose not 140$ but thousands at this point (not to mention in your multi GPU rig price reduction) and you all just talk here about if defender blocks your nicehash  and how much cents for electricity



i am down about 3 grand on my coin investment maybe 10 grand from when things peaked.. my mining is worth next to nothing but i will hodle on.. hope springs eternal.. he he

trog

ps.. the defender exclusion setting got things going again.. i made a folder called exclude on my desktop just to test things.. put the zip file in there and unzipped it.. defender left it alone.. i then made my mining folder "excludable" and copied the claymore mining executable back to where it belongs.. my eth miner is now working again..


----------



## LFaWolf (Apr 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> California buys ridiculous amounts of power from neighboring states.  e.g. much of the power produced at Hoover Dam goes to CA and so does a lot of nuclear power produced near Phoenix.  California has about the worst energy policy in the world. [Forbes] California's Growing Imported Electricity Problem
> 
> Last I checked, the first Mwh is expensive here (covers grid maintenance, taxes, etc.). After that it is 0.05211/kwh.  I'm always over a Mwh because of heating/cooling so I only look at the latter.


For the record I pay only $0.12 per kwh and I live close to the Bay Area which isn't bad. But the Bay Area where I work the rate went up to $.17 per kwh.



zelnep said:


> man oh man -  I had left around 100$ in ETH and 100$ in XMR... now it is like 60-ish$ total. I was watching how prices hit new lows, then volume did increase and I was like "oh boy - now it is going to bounce back up - this was the dip of the month" - but nothing I mean I guess I will lose not only those 140$ (100+100 - 60), but 195$ soon. well at least good that I sold my last gtx 1080 few weeks ago for 700$, I can pick up less used gtx 1080ti for 600$ now.
> But I wonder how you deal with it? I I mean some of you must lose not 140$ but thousands at this point (not to mention in your multi GPU rig price reduction) and you all just talk here about if defender blocks your nicehash  and how much cents for electricity



For some miners here they dig in for the long haul. Of course everyone knows bitcoin is below $7k and ether is below $400. But no one knows where it will land in the future. I have my own prediction but no one cares anyway. If you want to sell, sell. If you want to hold, hold. No one can tell you what to do or what it will be.


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 1, 2018)

trog100 said:


> ps.. the defender exclusion setting got things going again.. i made a folder called exclude on my desktop just to test things.. put the zip file in there and unzipped it.. defender left it alone.. i then made my mining folder "excludable" and copied the claymore mining executable back to where it belongs.. my eth miner is now working again..



Glad the Suggestion ( Made by some Here ) gave you a Solution and thanks for the update Hope it is also of use to Others


----------



## trog100 (Apr 1, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Glad the Suggestion ( Made by some Here ) gave you a Solution and thanks for the update Hope it is also of use to Others



windows dosnt make this kind of thing obvious.. the most helpful suggestion was by HTC.. a link to the ms instructions of how to actually do the exclusion stuff.. like all these things.. easy when you know how but not so easy finding out how. he he..

let me just say i had looked at defender closely but without the link by HTC  a few posts back was not able to figure out how to set exclusions.. as i say windows dosnt make it easy.. 

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 1, 2018)

trog100 said:


> windows dosnt make this kind of thing obvious..


Thats Microsoft knowing/thinking they know better that the pleb's


trog100 said:


> and to top it all off defender now thinks its a bloody virus and has deleted the claymore executable.. its just done this on both my mining machines.. they have been running for six months this has to be a defender update..





trog100 said:


> something has happened and i think its to do with windows defender.


.
I have Downloaded Software in the past  and it pass'es the Anti virus /malware software as OK/Clean
Couple of Months/years later and Same Software ( updated ) FLAG's it as Virus/Trojen/malware
Often it will
ASK YOU IF YOU WANT TO DELETE THE SUSPECT FILE
OR QUARANTINE FILE ( OFTEN WITH THE OPTION TO UPLOAD TO CHECK TO SEE IF ITS A FALSE POSITIVE
OR DO YOU WISH TO EXCLUDE FILE FROM FURTHER SCANS/ACTION



trog100 said:


> defender suddenly came up with a threat warning and zapped the claymore executable.


See Above ^^^^^


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 1, 2018)

trog100 said:


> as i say windows dosnt make it easy..


They aren't trying to. They don't want everyone and their dog making exclusions for everything under the Sun.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> They aren't trying to. They don't want everyone and their dog making exclusions for everything under the Sun.



true but but i dont see everyone and his dog feeling the need to exclude everything that windows wants to shut down..  quite clearly windows wants to shut down more things than it used to do.. i hope the trend dosnt go too far.. he he

i think a warning before shut down would be more appropriate.. i would guess this little trick has cost lots of folks quite bit of dosh while they figure out the whys wherefores of why their mining hardware has just stopped working and of course how to fix it..

lets not forget defender has been quite happy letting this same software run for many months.. the shut down is not because because people have done anything recently.. its just because ms have changed the f-cking rules regarding what defender lets run and what without warning it shuts down..

i noticed it on my desktop but it aint that common for folks to watch mining rigs that closely.. in fact it took me several hours before i discovered my main mining rig had shut down as well as my desktop.. and a fair time to figure out why and fix it..

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 1, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i would guess this little trick has cost lots of folks quite bit of dosh while they figure out the whys wherefores of why their mining hardware has just stopped working and of course how to fix it..


 Send Bill the Bill


----------



## trog100 (Apr 1, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Send Bill the Bill



if you count peoples time as money the Bill would be pretty large.. but who gives a sh-t i have said my bit and life goes on.. 

trog


----------



## verycharbroiled (Apr 2, 2018)

re: windows defender on win10. may be i have all updates disabled so defender (and windows) never updates. theres a couple places you have to do it but since then, no updates, no problems.

every couple months i will do an image backup (in case i dont like what the update does i can restore it) and then enable it to let it do its thing. if i like it, it stays. if not the pre update image goes back on. then updates go back to disabled.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 2, 2018)

verycharbroiled said:


> re: windows defender on win10. may be i have all updates disabled so defender (and windows) never updates. theres a couple places you have to do it but since then, no updates, no problems.
> 
> every couple months i will do an image backup (in case i dont like what the update does i can restore it) and then enable it to let it do its thing. if i like it, it stays. if not the pre update image goes back on. then updates go back to disabled.



i run macreum reflect.. its set to do daily back ups so technically i can roll back a day or more any time i like.. i find it easier than trying to win the battle with unwanted windows updates.. 

my daily back ups have come in useful on a few occasions.. i have the paid for version but there is a free version.. its also good for cloning a drive..

i only do this with my C drive which i keep small to enable the easy daily back ups.. 

trog


----------



## verycharbroiled (Apr 2, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i run macreum reflect.. its set to do daily back ups so technically i can roll back a day or more any time i like.. i find it easier than trying to win the battle with unwanted windows updates..
> 
> my daily back ups have come in useful on a few occasions.. i have the paid for version but there is a free version.. its also good for cloning a drive..
> 
> ...



macruium reflect here too, just the free version. been using it for years.  its a lifesaver on occasion.

probably go with the paid version soon but honestly the free version has more than enough features for me. but its so good i want to support it, so i will grab the paid eventually.

for purely file based backups i use syncback free nightly to raid 5 nas (freenas box i built), and weekly hook up another network drive and backup the nas to that and keep that drive disconnected otherwise so its off line. i rotate 2 drives every week or two, one to the bank deposit box, the other in a safe. others backups exist too also but they are squirreled away here and there.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 12, 2018)

bitcoin and the rest of the crypto tribe have just taken a sudden $1000 dollar upwards jump...

as yet reasons unknown but someone has just bought one hell of a lot of bitcoin.. 

https://coinranking.com/coin/bitcoin-btc

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 12, 2018)

I am paying attention to this upswing like I paid attention to the last two months...


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Apr 12, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin and the rest of the crypto tribe have just taken a sudden $1000 dollar upwards jump...
> 
> as yet reasons unknown but someone has just bought one hell of a lot of bitcoin..
> 
> ...



There was more bitcoin traded today then any other day in bitcoin history...crazy.

Also did you see/read about the new asic cards for ETH?


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 12, 2018)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin and the rest of the crypto tribe have just taken a sudden $1000 dollar upwards jump...
> 
> as yet reasons unknown but someone has just bought one hell of a lot of bitcoin..
> 
> ...



So monopolies are forming behind the scenes to take advantage of everyone else in the long term, nothing new there.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 13, 2018)

its all strange stuff.. a couple of months in steady decline and then a sudden change.. what happens next.. will it keep going up or drop back down again.. who knows.. 

is it just a pump and dump or is it for real.. he he

so far after half a day its still up.. which in my eyes is good sign.. 

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 13, 2018)

trog100 said:


> its all strange stuff.. a couple of months in steady decline and then a sudden change.. what happens next.. will it keep going up or drop back down again.. who knows..
> 
> is it just a pump and dump or is it for real.. he he
> 
> ...



my guess its some big guys with big money. they create hype, buy a ton early to bring up the hype, let 7 billion people spread word of mouth that its rising, pyramid scheme 101. and the SEC is never going to regulate it, unlike stock market. i wouldn't be surprised if it was goldman sachs who bought all of that, lulz.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 13, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> my guess its some big guys with big money. they create hype, buy a ton early to bring up the hype, let 7 billion people spread word of mouth that its rising, pyramid scheme 101. and the SEC is never going to regulate it, unlike stock market. i wouldn't be surprised if it was goldman sachs who bought all of that, lulz.


Except that it really didn't work. Cryptocurrencies as a whole have tanked in value. Some of them are below the value they had this time last year. 

And FYI, GoldmanSachs is a regulated entity, and even though crypto isn't, everything a regulated entity does has to fall under the strict guidelines of the regulations that govern them. They, nor any company like them, would risk having been involved in such a scheme.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 13, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Except that it really didn't work. Cryptocurrencies as a whole have tanked in value. Some of them are below the value they had this time last year.
> 
> And FYI, GoldmanSachs is a regulated entity, and even though crypto isn't, everything a regulated entity does has to fall under the strict guidelines of the regulations that govern them. They, nor any company like them, would risk having been involved in such a scheme.



Even their offshore black accounts wouldn't mind the risk?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 13, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Even their offshore black accounts wouldn't mind the risk?


No such thing for a company like that. They would be shut down in a New York minute if they were caught with such accounts. No company would risk it.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 13, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> No such thing for a company like that. They would be shut down in a New York minute if they were caught with such accounts. No company would risk it.



I don't feel like going through 214,000 companies to see if Goldmans is on the list, but I think a slap on the wrist is all they get, because everything is still flowing.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...lds-rich-and-famous-hide-their-money-offshore  - panama papers

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...pleby-law-firm-offshore-finance-a8039041.html - paradise papers


----------



## trog100 (Apr 13, 2018)

george soros was rumored to be taking an interest in trading crypos.. 

goldman definitely have they just keep it quiet..

but whatever.. some big money has just been dumped into the bitcoin market and like always everything else seems to follow bitcoin.. its over 8000 now and still holding..

i happen to be one of those people that think after a temporary draw back the crypto scene will take off again.. it did last year and i see no reason it wont do the same this year..

last year when i started mining around the end of august bitcoin was around $4000.. its now at $8000.. a year ago at this time it was less than $2000.. at $8000 its back to where it was in december 2017.. not that long ago.. 

will it keep trending up or fall back down.. i think up and i also think its being manipulated by "big money".. its been artificially driven down.. now is the time for the people that have driven it down to buy back in and let it all go up again.. 

but i could be wrong.. he he


----------



## r9 (Apr 13, 2018)

*Three More Countries Join Planned Lawsuit Against Internet Giants For Banning Crypto Ads*
https://cointelegraph.com/news/thre...gainst-internet-giants-for-banning-crypto-ads


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 13, 2018)

Frankly, I don't really care who is manipulating the market.  It could be the Russians, Chinese, Syrians, Zombies, or Trump himself.  My goal is to try and align my strategy with their manipulations.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 13, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Frankly, I don't really care who is manipulating the market.  It could be the Russians, Chinese, Syrians, Zombies, or Trump himself.  My goal is to try and align my strategy with their manipulations.



Good luck. You will win some and lose some, hope you win big mate. Personally, I'm keeping my savings nice and safe.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 13, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Good luck. You will win some and lose some, hope you win big mate. Personally, I'm keeping my savings nice and safe.



you must own some gold and silver then.. tis about the only thing that can be considered safe in todays world.. and only then if you actually own the metal.. he he

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 13, 2018)

trog100 said:


> you must own some gold and silver then.. tis about the only thing that can be considered safe in todays world.. and only then if you actually own the metal.. he he
> 
> trog



I do own a little gold, but most of my money is in USD in a top bank. If USD becomes worthless, currency will be the least of my worries, more in that the globalized world of food production will cease to be and mass starvation will occur, fiat is too big to fail at this point. I do think it might fail someday, but that is also good, the human species needs a nice wake up call in the form of pure brutality.


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 14, 2018)

*Indian BTC exchange Coinsecure finds itself $3.5m lighter*
*Outfit loses 438 bitcoin in security snafu*
More woe's for the ...............
Story here 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/13/coinsecure_btc_missing_bitcoin/


----------



## neatfeatguy (Apr 14, 2018)

Bad BTC story always surfaces after a spike in BTC value. No surprise here.


----------



## r9 (Apr 14, 2018)

trog100 said:


> you must own some gold and silver then.. tis about the only thing that can be considered safe in todays world.. and only then if you actually own the metal.. he he
> 
> trog


Guess you haven't seen the fake gold bars. Can't be sure without drilling a hole through the middle.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 14, 2018)

Truth be told, there is nothing 'safe' today.  However, if things like fiat, precious gems and metals, or etc become worthless, your savings are the least of your worries.  If anything, that is a benefit of crpyto right now.  If it completely crashes, damage is minimal.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2018)

neatfeatguy said:


> Bad BTC story always surfaces after a spike in BTC value. No surprise here.


A rise of 0.47% can hardly be called a spike.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 15, 2018)

r9 said:


> Guess you haven't seen the fake gold bars. Can't be sure without drilling a hole through the middle.


Pure gold has a density of 19.3 g/cm3 ergo, a real kilogram mass bar of gold will be 51.81 cm3 in volume.  The only way to make a fake is to put something inside that's more dense than gold but significantly less valuable (e.g. lead).  How to tell if it has lead inside? Gold is not magnetic. Lead is diamagnetic (repeals magnets).  Put a strong magnet on solid gold, the magnet be like "meh."  Put a strong magnet on gold clad lead, the magnet be like "NOPE!"


----------



## trog100 (Apr 15, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> A rise of 0.47% can hardly be called a spike.



be real the sudden price increase was more like 12% and it shot up in just a couple of hours.. quite where you negative bitocoin guys get your info from i do wonder.. 

ether way it looks like the price increase is holding and a new uptrend is (maybe) beginning.. bitcoin is about $8260 currently.. it was down around $6500..

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 15, 2018)

April 14, 2018 It seems to be dropping again


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 15, 2018)

I'd like to know how many wallets were involved in those jumps.  The first jump was probably the same wallets that sold off after the second jump.  Typical pump and dump.


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 15, 2018)

One reason for the sudden price surge is that bitcoin trading may have greatly increased on April 12 and 13. One source suggests the “biggest hour of trading in bitcoin’s entire history” took place, with nearly $300 million moving through exchange platforms in less than one hour. That’s a total of roughly 38,500 coins.

Head of fintech startup Revolut Ed Cooper explains, “In this scenario, traders with short positions started to lose money and liquidate their positions by buying bitcoin. This caused the price to rise further, and as more people started to notice the rise, they bought in for a quick gain. This continues the cycle.”

He further states that enthusiasts and traders shouldn’t get too amped up just yet, and that even though bitcoin may be moving in a positive direction for the time being, investors should think beyond the “short term.”


----------



## trog100 (Apr 15, 2018)

lets see what happens after a couple of weeks.. the up-trend and there is no doubt at all that their is an up-trend will hold or it wont.. i think it will.. he he..

i admit my bias.. i have money in it.. quite what motivates the crypto naysayers i havnt a clue.. maybe one of them can enlighten me.. ??

trog


----------



## mad1394 (Apr 15, 2018)

trog100 said:


> lets see what happens after a couple of weeks.. the up-trend and there is no doubt at all that their is an up-trend will hold or it wont.. i think it will.. he he..
> 
> i admit my bias.. i have money in it.. quite what motivates the crypto naysayers i havnt a clue.. maybe one of them can enlighten me.. ??
> 
> trog



Is the pleasure of watching something crash and burn not enough ? Do we need to think so deeply about it ? 
On topic : I have kept my savings out of this market although I have at least one friend with lots of money on the line. Am amazed something can raise and fall so quickly. Mesmerizing to follow.
It will come back down for sure. It is a cycle at this point.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 15, 2018)

just for the naysayers.. 

over the last seven days.. the begining of the upward trend..

bitcoin is up 18%..

eth is up 31%

litecoin is up 12%

cardano is up 41%

neo is up 45%..

these are the ones i have a financial interest in and watch the most.. but the current trend looks good and potentially sustainable to me.. 

trog


----------



## ppn (Apr 15, 2018)

they pump and they dump. the house always wins.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 15, 2018)

trog100 said:


> be real the sudden price increase was more like 12% and it shot up in just a couple of hours.. quite where you negative bitocoin guys get your info from i do wonder..


Yesterday when I looked here: https://coinranking.com/coin/bitcoin-btc
The variance was a 0.47% for a 24hour period. That is *not* a spike. It's a bump at best..


----------



## trog100 (Apr 16, 2018)

a variance of plus 0.47% just means a new price is holding over a day.. see my post above for the true price movement over  the last week...  its a little more than 0.47%..

trog


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## cdawall (Apr 16, 2018)

trog100 said:


> a variance of plus 0.47% just means a new price is holding over a day.. see my post above for the true price movement over  the last week...  its a little more than 0.47%..
> 
> trog



Yea peaks from 6500-8500 are a bit more than half a percent, but whatever let's just go off of the closes.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 16, 2018)

trog100 said:


> a variance of plus 0.47% just means a new price is holding over a day.. see my post above for the true price movement over  the last week...  its a little more than 0.47%..
> 
> trog





cdawall said:


> Yea peaks from 6500-8500 are a bit more than half a percent, but whatever let's just go off of the closes.


Ah ok, I was just looking at the 24hour not the week. Looking back a month I can see the "spike" referred to. My bad.


----------



## verycharbroiled (Apr 17, 2018)

mad1394 said:


> Am amazed something can raise and fall so quickly. Mesmerizing to follow.



even more so if you have some skin in the game. as long as its money you can just leave in with no worries even if it tanks its kinda fun, even on the crashes.. its like "will it come back even stronger and surprise the crypto naysayers again" kinda thing.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 20, 2018)

Bitcoin has just taken another $200 dollar vertical jump.. its now at $8500 up from $6500 a couple of weeks back.. .. Eth is now at $587.. the upwards trend seems to be consolidating.. to the moon again maybe.. he he

trog


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## hat (Apr 24, 2018)

Well, I'm mining at $3/day as opposed to under $2, so that's good. That said, cryptonight seems to have really went down...


----------



## cdawall (Apr 24, 2018)

hat said:


> Well, I'm mining at $3/day as opposed to under $2, so that's good. That said, cryptonight seems to have really went down...



You have to swap to cryptonight V7


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## trog100 (Apr 24, 2018)

Bitcoin is now up to $9330 and still going up with eth just a tad under $700 and doing the same..

trog

ps.. well it got as high as $9700 and then took a dive back down to $9300 as i write this.. eth is now at $640 the rest of the coins all took a similar dive.. i think its bottomed but could be wrong.. he he


----------



## trog100 (May 3, 2018)

well.. bitcoin is holding up nicely above the $9000 mark and eth is going up over the $700 mark.. 

my 10 x 1070 mining cards are now producing $17 dollars per day and the availability and price of graphics cards (scan uk) are back to where they were six months ago when i bought mine.. 

good news for all except those who are just looking for crypto negatives.. 

trog


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 3, 2018)

trog100 said:


> good news for all except those who are just looking for crypto negatives..


I've never had a problem with mining and the people who do it. My problem was with the very negative effect it was having on the rest of the market. That effect may have gone, but it was enough to cost me business and earnings for those several months.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 3, 2018)

trog100 said:


> well.. bitcoin is holding up nicely above the $9000 mark and eth is going up over the $700 mark..
> 
> my 10 x 1070 mining cards are now producing $17 dollars per day and the availability and price of graphics cards (scan uk) are back to where they were six months ago when i bought mine..
> 
> ...


World markets are still very much in turmoil.  Fed is talking about raising rates again.  Asia in flux over North Korea and USA starting trade wars.  Europe is teetering.  Some investors are looking for short term gains in crypto instead of short term loss in stocks.  Then again, I think they already acted moving the price from 6500 to over 9000.  The little people are cashing out while the big money is waiting for stocks to stabilize.  Unless stock markets make a big move in either direction, I think crypto will remain more or less where it is until something happens.


----------



## trog100 (May 4, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> World markets are still very much in turmoil.  Fed is talking about raising rates again.  Asia in flux over North Korea and USA starting trade wars.  Europe is teetering.  Some investors are looking for short term gains in crypto instead of short term loss in stocks.  Then again, I think they already acted moving the price from 6500 to over 9000.  The little people are cashing out while the big money is waiting for stocks to stabilize.  Unless stock markets make a big move in either direction, I think crypto will remain more or less where it is until something happens.



world markets are in a mess.. stocks and bonds could well crash big time.. if this happens gold and silver will go up thats for sure precious metal are the traditional safe haven territory..

just how a market crash will affect crypto is a total unknown.. i aint gonna hazard a guess and nether is anyone else.. money could move into crypto or it could move out of crypto and into gold and silver.. waiting for stocks to stabilize is a fools game and  more so if you assume they will.. he he

crypto took another upwards jump today.. eth more than bitcoin.. give bitcoin another couple of weeks and it will be up over $10000.. but then again as i always say.. i could be wrong.. 

as i write bitcoin is at $9694 and eth at $782.. the upwards trend seems to have momentum and i recon its increasing..

trog

ps.. for what its worth eth has move up over %88 in the last month.. bitcoin only about %30.. correction actually eth is now at $799 up %101 over the last month..


----------



## dorsetknob (May 7, 2018)

BurstCoin   the next great thing


----------



## hat (May 8, 2018)

At least right now, it looks like I should be able to use btc I've earned from mining to get some shiny new PC parts. Maybe when Ice Lake comes out.


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## R-T-B (May 8, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> BurstCoin   the next great thing



So paying people to store stuff on your HDD ala "the cloud"

I see nothing wrong with this.  It's actually a cool idea.


----------



## neatfeatguy (May 11, 2018)

Dipped under $9K just a little bit ago. I think some folk figured it was getting too high and a couple big sell offs happened today.





I'm curious if folks still view things as stable enough to get it back up over $9K or if it will keep tumbling downwards to the last low of around $6K......?

It's rather interesting to watch the ups and downs of these things.


----------



## hat (May 11, 2018)

Not sure, but personally I don't have enough BTC right now to do anything with anyway... so I'm kinda just watching the ride.


----------



## trog100 (May 11, 2018)

there are rumours of another MT Gox liquidation.. rumours are enough with crypto.. he he..

and then again there is this..

http://bitcoinist.com/bitcoin-dips-9000-upbit-investigation-worries-korean-traders/

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (May 11, 2018)

And now we separate those who watch the news, and those who do not lol. I sold out just before Mt Gox liquidated. I'll buy back if we hit 8k. If not, I'll just consider that stashed, and wait for the next one as I mine.


----------



## hat (May 23, 2018)

New version of Nicehash legacy out today. Why do some benchmarks fail? Every time I have to rebenchmark everything usually at least one fails, then I re-run the one that failed and it usually succeeds. Seems it's a common issue.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 14, 2018)

Cryptocurrency tether used to boost bitcoin prices, study finds


> The researchers found that tether issuances rose last year during periods when the price of bitcoin was dropping. When bitcoin was rising, the same pattern could not be found.
> 
> Once issued, nearly all tether was moved to Bitfinex and then shifted to other exchanges, where it was used to buy bitcoin, propping up the price, the paper said.
> 
> ...


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2018)

In other words, the manipulation happened during the collapse, not the rise, to attempt to stop losses in an illegal way.

Honestly, that makes sense to me.  Totally believable and "tether" should never have existed.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jun 14, 2018)

Any other Industry this would be classed as Price Fixing and there would be a Plethora Of Regulatory Bodys Now Investgating
But Hey its Un-Regulated CryptoCurrency


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Any other Industry this would be classed as Price Fixing and there would be a Plethora Of Regulatory Bodys Now Investgating



They've certainly noticed, and in MtGox's case years ago, plenty of action WAS taken.



dorsetknob said:


> But Hey its Un-Regulated CryptoCurrency



That's not really the issue, as it's not "unregulated crypto" once we start talking about fiat exchanges.  We left that behind.  The issue right now at least in the states isn't the currency but your current crop of politicians who prefer a "hands off" approach to...  everything.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 14, 2018)

Here's the cited source:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3195066

From the abstract:


> Using algorithms to analyze the blockchain data, we find that purchases with Tether are timed following market downturns and result in sizable increases in Bitcoin prices. Less than 1% of hours with such heavy Tether transactions are associated with 50% of the meteoric rise in Bitcoin and 64% of other top cryptocurrencies.





> These patterns cannot be explained by investor demand proxies but are most consistent with the supply-based hypothesis where Tether is used to provide price support and manipulate cryptocurrency prices.



From conclusion:


> By mapping the blockchains of Bitcoin and Tether, we are able to establish that entities associated with the Bitﬁnex exchange use Tether to purchase Bitcoin when prices are falling. Such price supporting activities are successful, as Bitcoin prices rise following the periods of intervention. These effects are present only after negative returns and periods following the printing of Tether. Indeed, even less than 1% of extreme exchange of tether for Bitcoin has substantial aggregate price effects. The buying of Bitcoin with Tether also occurs more aggressively right below salient round-number price thresholds where the price support might be most effective. Negative EOM price pressure on Bitcoin only in months with large Tether issuance indicates a month-end need for dollar reserves related to Tether. Proxies for Tether demand receive little support in the data, but our results are consistent with the supply-driven manipulation hypothesis.
> 
> Overall, our ﬁndings provide substantial support for the view that price manipulation may be behind substantial distortive effects in cryptocurrencies. These ﬁndings suggest that external capital market surveillance and monitoring may be necessary to obtain a market that is truly free. More generally, our ﬁndings support the historical narrative that dubious activities are not just a by-product of price appreciation, but can substantially contribute to price distortions and capital misallocation.







R-T-B said:


> In other words, the manipulation happened during the collapse, not the rise, to attempt to stop losses in an illegal way.
> 
> Honestly, that makes sense to me.  Totally believable and "tether" should never have existed.


TL;DR: When Bitcoin started to dive, Tether flowed into Bitcoin propping it up.



dorsetknob said:


> Any other Industry this would be classed as Price Fixing and there would be a Plethora Of Regulatory Bodys Now Investgating
> But Hey its Un-Regulated CryptoCurrency


Tether/Bitfinex are under investigation but nothing has come of it yet.  This paper indicates that something likely will come of it--it's just a matter of when.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 14, 2018)

> TL;DR: When Bitcoin started to dive, Tether flowed into Bitcoin propping it up.



Except "tether" didn't flow into bitcoin, dollars did.  That's how it works.  The problem here is this tether didn't map to actual dollars put in, thus, it's pretty much theft.

At any rate, it's basically this:

So the big fishies are trying to make crypto a playground for corrupt habbits, hoping it will go unnoticed.

Unsurprising, but they didn't do their homework.  Precisely because of the nature of blockchain was this very study showing the corruption possible.  They would've had better luck using fiat cash.

I hate to break it to you Ford, but you just pointed out why Crypto is good.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 15, 2018)

Hmmmmm, I don't suppose any reports on the US Gov manipulating the gold market have any truth to them....


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## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Hmmmmm, I don't suppose any reports on the US Gov manipulating the gold market have any truth to them....



I'm one of the believers that they do, but I have a feeling we won't be seeing those articles from crypto naysayers.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 15, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I'm one of the believers that they do, but I have a feeling we won't be seeing those articles from crypto naysayers.



Not to mention all that big tough punishment all the regulated market manipulators get.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I hate to break it to you Ford, but you just pointed out why Crypto is good.


Commodity Futures Trading Commission subpoenaed Tether and Bitfinex last year (seven months before this research paper).  Investigators subpoena records directly from the source be it public or private ledgers.  Tampering with evidence is a felony.  They can also subpoena records from businesses and individuals that interacted with the suspect organization to recompile evidence that was destroyed.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Tampering with evidence is a felony.



Which also can't really happen with blockchain short of a 51% attack by an outside actor.

The regulators haven't figured it out just yet, but the evidence they want is literally in the blockchain public ledger.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

Because they have no interest in everyone's records.  They only have interest in the suspect's records.


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## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Because they have no interest in everyone's records.  They only have interest in the suspect's records.



This is where I would apply the analogy of "learning to work the database provided."

Use a fricking filter.  The information in the end will be much more reliable than books kept by the person who is admitedly "suspect."


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

You're missing the point, I think.  Criminal prosecution requires Constitutional procedures to be followed.  Whether or not the information is public is moot.  Public information still has to be verified by the investigators for it to be prosecuted.  They likely do obtain a copy of the public ledger as part of the investigation but it doesn't stop there.  There are already private blockchains out there and the procedure for both (and non-blockchain) is the same.

This is quite the tangent anyway.  Point is, the price of cryptocurrencies (especially Bitcoin) has been manipulated (again).


----------



## trog100 (Jun 15, 2018)

the word control and the word manipulation mean pretty much the same thing.. the only thing of importance here is who is doing the controlling and why..

central banks and government manipulate we can take that for granted.. fiat money is manipulated.. gold is manipulated.. stocks and shares are manipulated..  trade prices are manipulated .. in fact everything that can be manipulated is manipulated.. 

trog


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## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

The entire U.S. federal reserve system *is* manipulation. And if you're going to be angry at some people for stripping out the US dollar backing from Tether, and using that for market manipulation, you should also be angry at the US government for the same thing when they got rid of the gold standard. It's functionally the same thing. 

To note, I'm not saying you *shouldn't* be mad at people doing this. I'm saying you should be mad at both.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

The Federal Reserve regulates (1a : to govern or direct according to rule), not manipulates (2b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage).  When they decide to change interest rates, it's a public affair because people with a stake need to know.


Have some history: Why We Left The Gold Standard


> "Most economists now agree 90% of the reason why the U.S. got out of the Great Depression was the break with gold," Ahamed says.
> 
> Going off the gold standard gave the government new tools to steer the economy. If you're not tied to gold, you can adjust the amount of money in the economy if you need to. You can adjust interest rates.
> 
> Almost all economists agree, the system we have today is better than the gold standard. Not perfect, but much better.


Imagine if the USD was based on graphics cards (instead of gold...any commodity really).  Ethereum would have tanked the entire US economy.  Because it isn't, cryptocurrencies barely registered on USD's RADAR.

Recessions don't become depressions anymore because of fiat.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

Using different words doesn't change reality. Neither does the justification. It's literally the same thing. The only difference is you see the government as legitimate actor authorized to do the manipulating, and the fact that the manipulation (sometimes) turns out with good results.

Manipulate comes from the same root word as manual: the latin "Man" meaning hand. Manipulate literally means only to handle something (the connotation being to "put one's hands on.") The emphasis on it being insidious or unfair is purely contextual. And that context is subjective.

Your article supports my statement, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at there... 

"Gave the government new tools to steer the economy. If you're not tied to gold, you can adjust the amount of money in the economy if you need to." 

... so... manipulation...


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

Now you're arguing semantics, not merit. Let's play some Q and A:

1) Did the US/UK suffer from depressions while on the gold standard?

2) Did the US/UK suffer from depressions while off the gold standard?

3) Considering your answers to the above questions, is the gold standard the best monetary platform to build an economy off of?

Facts:
a) The Federal Reserve predates fiat monetary policy in the USA.
b) List of recessions in UK.
c) List of recessions in US.
d) Bitcoin is a commodity.
e) Gold is a commodity.


You're basically advocating for more economic depressions.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Now you're arguing semantics, not merit. Let's play some Q and A:
> 
> 1) Did the US/UK suffer from depressions while on the gold standard?
> 
> ...



Whoa, hold on. You're the one who made the distinction. You're playing at semantics, not me. You purposefully chose the definitions which suited your purposes, while ignoring the first definition cited in your own link. Don't talk to me about playing semantics.

1) Yes.
2) Not yet.
3) Not really, but it's better than monopoly money, which fiat is. At least some crypto is inflation-proof. And I'd have no problem with fiat either, if there was actually a finite supply of it. Gold is semi-finite (as in, we don't know where the end is, but at most times there is a steady influx of real supply.) The fact that the fed controls the supply of the dollar is purely, abjectly, manipulation. You can argue whether their manipulation is good or bad, but it *IS* manipulation. There is no denying that.

The fact that people were pulling their gold out of the reserve only threatened those in power. Those who owned the gold pulled their gold out because they had lost faith. They had every right to do so. By pulling the gold standard, those in power are saying "You do not own the value of your property." I have a huge problem with that.

Bitcoin itself cannot be manipulated. It has a 100% finite supply. Its price relative to other things can fluctuate obviously, as can anything else. But it speaks volumes that the very way that people are manipulating bitcoin prices is by using a currency that didn't have the backing it claimed to have. It took manipulation of *other* currencies in order to manipulate Bitcoin's price relative to *another* currency. The fact that tether had a quasi "gold standard" in the US dollar, then abandoned that secretly gave way to Bitcoin prices being manipulated. And that wasn't Bitcoin itself being manipulated. It is only Bitcoin's interaction with other currencies that was manipulated.

Bottom line is, there are immutable laws of economics. You can build whatever house you wish on top of those laws, whether of bricks or cards. But it doesn't change the laws. And a house that takes gravity into account will always stand longer than one that doesn't.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

Cryptocurrency suffers from severe deflation (like gold).  Inflation inline with economic growth leads to purchasing power stability (a very good thing that monetary policy aims to achieve).

Remember what the Great Depression was: 25-33% people were out of work and poverty was everywhere.  The Great Depression spared no one; even the wealthy found their pockets pinched.



Papahyooie said:


> Bitcoin itself cannot be manipulated.


That's hilarious.   That document I just linked above literally says "Virtual currencies: Carry speculative risk plus fraud and manipulation risks."  Bitcoin was "played upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage."  The instruments used to manipulate matter not: the end justifies the means to the manipulator.


Name one time that the Federal Reserve "manipulated" the USD for its own advantage.


Very important quote from that deflation link (and a reason why cryptocurrencies aren't currencies at all): "Economists generally believe that deflation is a problem in a modern economy because it increases the real value of *debt*, especially if the deflation is unexpected."  Currencies are used to settle debts.  Commodities are straight up trades, no debts.

Imagine if you owed 1 BTC to someone before the bubble...about $2,500 USD.  A month later, that debt ballooned to $15,000 USD for no reason other than the deflation of BTC.  You would now owe six times the real value agreed upon a month prior.  See the problem?

Only cryptocurrency evangelists prophesize cryptocurrency replacing fiat: a belief that's rooted in gross ignorance.  In order for blockchain to function as a currency, it would require oversight by an organization like the Federal Reserve to control inflation and deflation. Evangelists won't allow that so, cryptocurrency replacing fiat is a nonstarter.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

I think you're mistaking speculatory gains for deflation, but that's a whole other conversation. Purchasing power stability is simply a mathematical trick. An accounting tool. It does not address any actual natural economic function. Your hypothetical about owing someone a debt of 1 BTC is true... but it is 100% dependent on the fact that 1 USD has no real value, because it has no valuable backing. Since BTC is "backed" by the USD and the USD/BTC price pair is driven by speculation, the situation you describe arises. While this makes BTC a good speculative tool to create shadow value, it does not in any way translate to real value. Your answer is to destroy crypto. My answer is to use crypto as a currency tied to real value, which a market is fully capable of doing on its own, given adoption. Crypto can never be the "future" unless it's adopted for use as a currency. That I agree. If/once it does become widely adopted, it becomes valued based on market principles, not the USD/BTC pair. "How many apples can I buy with a bitcoin" replaces the question of "How many dollars can I buy with a bitcoin." In order for something to deflate, the real values must be compared.

This is the problem with Keynesian economics... the idea completely eschews *actual* economic laws of real value in exchange for mathematical tricks.

To address your post edit that I'm advocating for more depression: You're saying that because removing the gold standard (sort of) helped get the economy out of the great depression (arguable) that having a gold standard causes depressions. I shouldn't have to point out the logical fallacy there. Bad speculation caused the depression. Stocks in general are a horrible idea. It can't be stopped really, but the consequences of speculating badly are losing your money.

You're mistaking what I'm saying about Bitcoin being unable to be manipulated. The manipulation risks of Bitcoin are predicated on the interaction between it and other value stores. If those value stores are manipulated, and Bitcoin traded against those manipulated values, then yes, the result is going to be manipulation of Bitcoin's price relative to other value stores. Bitcoin's *real* value, if it were to have such a thing (it doesn't at the moment, due to its lack of usage as an actual tendered currency) cannot be manipulated. Speculation risk and manipulation is completely different. Pump and dumps do exist in crypto. I'm not denying that sort of manipulation does happen, but that is a completely different topic. Moreover, it falls right back to the fact that it is the dollar/BTC conversion that is being manipulated, not Bitcoin itself.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Name one time that the Federal Reserve "manipulated" the USD for its own advantage.



https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy.htm


Once again, we're back to name-calling. (Although I'm guilty of that, especially with you Ford, so I don't take it nearly as harshly coming from you...) But you saying someone, or their beliefs are grossly ignorant does not make it so. Claims about "most economists" usually refers to "most economists who agree with my viewpoint." Keynesian economists tend to be against crypto. Classical economists tend to be pro. And since Keynesian economists are the ones that support the current system, they tend to get all the press.

There is nothing about currency that requires oversight and control by an organization outside of its users. That claim simply is not true. If Bill and I agree that one rock equals two apples, we have a currency. It's a terrible currency, because rocks are everywhere, and you can always get more... but that's basically the Federal Reserve, now isn't it?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Bad speculation caused the depression.


No, that caused the recession which caused a run on the banks which caused the depression.  Every depression I can think of has the "run on the banks" feature (liquidity gone).  The Great Recession didn't become a depression because of TARP which restored liquidity quickly.



Papahyooie said:


> Stocks in general are a horrible idea. It can't be stopped really, but the consequences of speculating badly are losing your money.


You literally just said "cryptocurrency in general are a horrible idea."  A share represents a stake in a company; a Bitcoin represents a stake in the Bitcoin commodity.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> No, that caused the recession which caused a run on the banks which caused the depression.  Every depression I can think of has the "run on the banks" feature (liquidity gone).  The Great Recession didn't become a depression because of TARP which restored liquidity quickly.
> 
> 
> You literally just said "cryptocurrency in general are a horrible idea."  A share represents a stake in a company; a Bitcoin represents a stake in the Bitcoin commodity.



Then the banks should die. Loss of liquidity does not hurt the individual who owns the value. It only hurts those who want to maintain control over the value owned by others. Once again, this goes against my core belief that a person owns his property. We don't agree on this point, so as I said in the other thread, we will never agree on anything that derives from our core beliefs. But you're at least fun to argue with... 

Using crypto as a speculative commodity is a horrible idea overall yes, ideologically speaking. I'm still going to use it to make money, because to be honest, I don't have much faith in the current crypto ecosystem becoming an actual currency and not a speculative commodity. I have no delusion that BTC is anything but that. I've never made any claim otherwise. And I have no moral qualms with making money off of it until the ship sinks. But I also have no illusion that what I'm doing is anything more than playing a mathematical game to my own advantage. That's the difference... I know what I'm doing here with the BTC/USD pair is a farce that I'm taking advantage of. You wholeheartedly believe that the same game being played by the Fed board members benefits you. And it does. It is responsible for a modicum of stability. I don't disagree. But stability in exchange for the game masters sapping *real* value from your coffers into theirs, and in exchange for not owning your own property. It's an ideological difference, sure. And I don't expect you to change your views on that. But what I won't abide is, like I said in the other thread, people who want to come into my playground and tell me what to do with my toys. You can decry crypto all you like... I don't really care. It's when you want to regulate it that it makes me angry. The point of crypto is to own the value of your own property. As a speculative commodity, yes... it's useless for that purpose. I've not been shy about admitting that.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Loss of liquidity does not hurt the individual who owns the value.


Yes, it does.  Without liquidity, trade stops.  Without trade, the economy stops.  Without the economy, the basics (food, clothing, shelter) start vanishing.  Like I said: it's the chain of events that precipitated most (if not all) depressions.  An influx of cash where the liquidity is gone is what gets the economy moving again.  In 2008, it came in the form of both fiscal policy (TARP) and monetary policy ("Quantative Easing").  The result: recession did not turn into depression.  #ThanksFed



Papahyooie said:


> But stability in exchange for the game masters sapping *real* value from your coffers into theirs, and in exchange for not owning your own property.


I do own my property.  It is tangible.  It has real value.  I can trade it for anything a buyer is willing to exchange for it.  The Federal Reserve really has nothing to do with that.



Papahyooie said:


> It's when you want to regulate it that it makes me angry.


Oh? So you like manipulation and fraud?  No one should have punished Mt. Gox and Bitfinex for what they did?


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

Your second paragraph belies your first. If your goods are tangible, and can be traded, then a loss of liquidity does not hurt you (or more accurately, doesn't exist beyond the framework of currency.) The two are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be true.

When constrained to such a system however, the market value of your goods is decoupled from it's real value, obscured by a conversion system that necessarily is manipulated. The entire point of fiat currency IS literally to facilitate manipulation. That is the express  admitted purpose. If you trust that the overlords doing the manipulation have your best interest in mind... Well, more power to you, you poor naive bastard. I'm sure the billionaires running the show aren't there to protect their hoardes.

No, I don't like manipulation and fraud. I'm not an anarchist. Fraud and theft are still crimes, but that's entirely irrelevant. I'm speaking of regulation as opposed to law. I know there isn't a real operative difference between the two, but we don't have words to make the difference... For my purposes here:
Laws govern natural crimes. Regulation governs facilitation.

Law: don't poison people.

Regulation: your lemonade stand must be tested monthly for poison, and must contain less than 0.00001% poison.


Laws punish crimes. Regulations punish those who haven't yet committed a crime.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Your second paragraph belies your first. If your goods are tangible, and can be traded, then a loss of liquidity does not hurt you (or more accurately, doesn't exist beyond the framework of currency.) The two are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be true.


No liquidity = no buyers = no trade.  Federal Reserve inspires liquidity enticing buyers to close on trades.



Papahyooie said:


> I'm speaking of regulation as opposed to law.


Regulation:
2a : an authoritative rule dealing with details or procedure
2b : a rule or order issued by an executive authority or regulatory agency of a government and having the force of law 

Law:
a (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed (see prescribe 1a) or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules The courts exist to uphold, interpret, and apply the law. (3) : common law



Papahyooie said:


> Laws govern natural crimes. Regulation governs facilitation.


Um...?



Papahyooie said:


> Law: don't poison people.
> 
> Regulation: your lemonade stand must be tested monthly for poison, and must contain less than 0.00001% poison.


Law: The Commodities Exchange Act: "prohibits fraudulent conduct in the trading of futures contracts" and created the Commodity Futures Trading Commission with the stated purpose to "foster open, transparent, competitive, and financially sound markets, to avoid systemic risk, and to protect the market users and their funds, consumers, and the public from fraud, manipulation, and abusive practices related to derivatives and other products that are subject to the Commodity Exchange Act."

Regulation: CFTC interprets CEA to include cryptocurrencies; ergo, it applies it's directive and powers to effect the market.

In your example, you're talking about food safety compliance which has stopped, or severely lessened, the effect of bacterial outbreaks.  Food safety compliance is a condition of getting and maintaining a license to process foods.  Lemonade stands hardly qualify; however, the businesses that handle the lemons do. Regulation establishes trust that the products being purchased are safe for consumption.



Papahyooie said:


> Laws punish crimes. Regulations punish those who haven't yet committed a crime.


That's unconstitutional and a complete mischaracterization of what regulation means.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> This is quite the tangent anyway.



Dude, this whole thread is a tangent then.

I see no way that wasn't entirely on topic, unless you only consider criticism of crypto as "relevant."


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 15, 2018)

/sigh...

Ford, I don't know how to discuss things with you if you can't even break free of the rigidity of a dictionary. You want to accuse me of playing semantics, but your argument against me is "that's not the definition of regulation" when I very clearly defined the word for my purposes of this conversation. I realise that the emphasis and distinction are my own... That's was my point, because we don't really have a word to make the distinction I want to make (or perhaps I simply don't know the word if it does exist.) But if you can't accept that distinction for the purposes of this conversation for lack of better terms, then I guess you win, if only in your own mind.

I'm not here to debate words, I'm here to discuss ideas. I provide an allegorical example of what I mean by the distinction using a lemonade stand, and your response is "but food regulation prevents disease."

I would say that's the very definition of missing the point, but you'd probably just link a dictionary web page containing the actual definition of missing the point...

You are synonymizing liquidity with the state's currency, ignoring the possibility of any other. Your operative usage and definition of liquidity *rely* on the system you are supporting with your argument. If you can't understand why that's logically problematic, then our conversation here has gone deeper than you're capable of going. I don't say that to insult you... it's just that I'm probably not eloquent enough to explain it to you, given your propensity for dictionary dot com.

But I'm not one to care for having the last word... I'm sure you'll consider my bowing out here a victory, but honestly this is tiresome. Congratulations wall. You've defeated my forehead. Carry on.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 16, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> ...dictionary dot com.


merriam dash webster dot com


----------



## trog100 (Jun 16, 2018)

interesting how certain words are given negative meaning.. manipulation now equates with fraud.. anarchy gets the same treatment.. messing with the meaning of words is all part of the manipulation or control game.. he he..

as i said earlier everything is manipulated the only thing of interest is the who and the why.. as for the worlds fiscal and monetary policy again it all works until it dosnt..

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 18, 2018)

Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype


> Cryptocurrencies promise to replace trusted institutions with distributed ledger technology. Yet, looking beyond the hype, *it is hard to identify a specific economic problem which they currently solve*. Transactions are slow and costly, prone to congestion, and cannot scale with demand. The decentralised consensus behind the technology is also fragile and consumes vast amounts of energy. Still, distributed ledger technology could have promise in other applications. Policy responses need to prevent abuses while allowing further experimentation.












Some really interesting stuff in there.  For example, if USA's economy were to be committed to a cryptocurrency on July 1, 2018, the ledger would grow to 110 terabytes by the end of 2020 assuming each transaction is only 250 bytes.  It is an understatement to say that peer-to-peer is inadequate for handling an economy the size of the USA.


Another gem:





It talks about how foreign exchange has exceeded $540 billion and blockchain may prove to be a solution for that problem but in the form of "cryptopayment" and not "cryptocurrency."  It stresses that there's alternative solutions in the works so cryptopayment may not be the one that is settled on.

I think by cryptopayment, they mean something like Federal Reserve Notes.  It is a legitimate, recognized currency but only accepted as an intermediary for foreign exchange.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It talks about how foreign exchange has exceeded $540 billion and blockchain may prove to be a solution for that problem but in the form of "cryptopayment" and not "cryptocurrency."



I honestly feel like those are the same thing, sorry.

Every example they use there assumes bitcoin.  Bitcoin != all cryptocurrency.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 18, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I honestly feel like those are the same thing, sorry.





> The unit of account and ultimate means of payment in Building Blocks is sovereign currency, so it is a “cryptopayment” system but not a cryptocurrency.


USD, GBP, CAD, etc. is considered sovereign currency.  I tried to dig into the specifics and coming up blank.  All I know is that WPF gives people money (their local sovereign currency) and they buy food with it.  "Crypto-" as in there's a blockchain involved and "-payment" as in local legal tender, not something specific to the blockchain.



R-T-B said:


> Every example they use there assumes bitcoin.  Bitcoin != all cryptocurrency.


"Cryptocurrency" blanket for all current cryptocurrencies.  If they're talking about specifically Bitcoin, then they'll say Bitcoin by name (e.g. look at the graph in the post).


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> *it is hard to identify a specific economic problem which they currently solve*. .



As I've said many times now, it's an ideological problem that they can solve. If you don't agree that it's a problem, or if you disagree on that solution... don't use crypto. It's really that simple.

I will never understand peoples' need to control every aspect of other peoples' lives.

Cryptocurrency vs cryptopayments is largely symbolic. Even in a cryptopayment system that facilitated payments in other currencies, the technology would still be identical to a cryptocurrency. You'd still be using a transaction hash as the item being transferred, you'd just exchanged that virtual item for a dollar (or whatever) at each end. Whether you consider the hash itself to be the currency itself is just details.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 18, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> I will never understand peoples' need to control every aspect of other peoples' lives.



Amen.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If they're talking about specifically Bitcoin, then they'll say Bitcoin by name (e.g. look at the graph in the post).



Except they don't.  They just assume all crypto consumes massive amounts of energy (ignoring the ones that don't, there ARE PoS coins out there), they use calculations assuming bitcoins (noncompressed) block size in their "running the USA" calculation without even naming Bitcoin (other coins would do much better at this, like exponentially).

I mean, they really don't other than that one graph.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 18, 2018)

They graph Bitcoin power consumption versus Ether (which changed to Proof of Stakes).  Ether is still extremely power consuming considering how little productive work is being accomplished.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They graph Bitcoin power consumption versus Ether (which changed to Proof of Stakes).  Ether is still extremely power consuming considering how little productive work is being accomplished.



Ether still incorperates proof of work for a large portion of coin generation, making it a less than ideal example.

It's the big fish yes.  That doesn't make it the right fish.  Especially not for the point you are trying to make.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 29, 2018)

Bitcoin skids below $6,000, hits lowest level since November


> “None of the crypto currencies currently fulfill any of the criteria that we would look for in an investible asset and we would continue to advise extreme caution. The *rout in crypto currencies is still not finished*,” he said.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Jun 30, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Bitcoin skids below $6,000, hits lowest level since November



Just looked now and BTC is pushing past $6.4K.....what a roller coaster ride


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 30, 2018)

Probably a bunch of cryptoevangelicals buying thinking <$6k was the floor.  They're going to be sorely disappointed.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 30, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Probably a bunch of cryptoevangelicals buying thinking <$6k was the floor.  They're going to be sorely disappointed.




You should do like me my friend, 3 months ago I stopped checking everything, threads like this, prices, everything... my life has improved for the better. If you believe it is a waste of time, then do like me and just toss it from your life, we only have a fixed amount of time in this life my friend.  Cheers ~


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 30, 2018)

Doesn't even come to mind until I see it on Reuters. 

Edit: FYI, under $6k; took less time than I expected to sag again.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 1, 2018)

its 6330 now ford.. having a stake in it i wanna see it go up.. you on the other hand dont.. he he.. 

nether of us know for sure what it will do though or even why it will do whatever it does... 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 2, 2018)

Broad consensus is down.  It hasn't reached the floor yet.


> Compounding the price drops is a current lack of volume in the cryptocurrency markets.
> 
> “There’s no real spark in the market right now to get it moving, it’s just more sellers than buyers,” said [Matthew] Newton. “It needs something to get markets back to life, like some development on the technology or regulatory side.”


The technology is stale (aside from PoET which doesn't involve mining) and regulation will only continue to further constrict the market.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jul 2, 2018)

Good. Let the downward trend continues.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 2, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Good. Let the downward trend continues.



You do realize price does not coorelate directly to your GPU shortage?

I could be $1.00 and if difficulty dropped enough we'd have the same problems.  You guys seem to think crypto will die because the price is down.  It won't.  It is not killable that way.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> You do realize price does not coorelate directly to your GPU shortage?


It does because people aren't buying pallets full of cards anymore for mining.  The profit margin is too small to bother.  The real risk of the margin shrinking further makes buying cards for mining now a bad investment.

As with any market, the health of it can be determined by the amount of trading which has been on a steady decline for the last six months.

Difficulty only rises as coins in the algorithm become more and more sparse.  With the market as a whole also declining, there's not much money to be made off of transaction fees either.


----------



## hat (Jul 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It does because people aren't buying pallets full of cards anymore for mining.  The profit margin is too small to bother.  The real risk of the margin shrinking further makes buying cards for mining now a bad investment.
> 
> As with any market, the health of it can be determined by the amount of trading which has been on a steady decline for the last six months.
> 
> Difficulty only rises as coins in the algorithm become more and more sparse.  With the market as a whole also declining, there's not much money to be made off of transaction fees either.



Difficulty is also affected by how many miners there are. The law of supply and demand applies here too. Around this time last year, BTC was worth $3000 or thereabouts and Ethereum was so good you could get $5/day per GTX1070. Since then, everybody jumped on the bandwagon and now a GTX1070 is averaging $1/day now. If half the miners fell off the face of the earth, those of us left would be getting paid more.

As a miner, I'm basically looking for the best opportunity to sell. My stash of BTC is slowly piling up... and the price of BTC affects how much that is worth. One day I'll use it for something... but right now I'm more like a squirrel gathering nuts.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 2, 2018)

hat said:


> Difficulty is also affected by how many miners there are. The law of supply and demand applies here too. Around this time last year, BTC was worth $3000 or thereabouts and Ethereum was so good you could get $5/day per GTX1070. Since then, everybody jumped on the bandwagon and now a GTX1070 is averaging $1/day now. If half the miners fell off the face of the earth, those of us left would be getting paid more.
> 
> As a miner, I'm basically looking for the best opportunity to sell. My stash of BTC is slowly piling up... and the price of BTC affects how much that is worth. One day I'll use it for something... but right now I'm more like a squirrel gathering nuts.




It's also kind of nice that you can use it to spend too, so say you want to upgrade that ancient rig of yours when 8 core 16 thread coffee lake comes out this Fall, just hope on Newegg and checkout with Bitcoin. lol


----------



## hat (Jul 2, 2018)

That's the plan, but not coffee lake. I'm kinda wanting to wait on ice lake instead with the hardware fixes for meltdown and spectre... but those fixes might prove useless anyway.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Probably a bunch of cryptoevangelicals buying thinking <$6k was the floor.  They're going to be sorely disappointed.



Good thing you don't play this game, Ford... You're not very good at it. 

I'll admit, I did sell out 100% as a stop-loss last week, just above $6200. Bought back in at $5900 when it seemed to stable off a bit. Considering selling again if it hits $6800 for a tidy profit. At the moment, if it hits $6950, I expect it will fall again. If it hits 7k I'll start mining again, so the loss of growth if it does happen to go full bull won't disappoint me too much.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It does because people aren't buying pallets full of cards anymore for mining. The profit margin is too small to bother.



My point was the profit margin is not directly coorelating to price.  By nature of crypto, it will adjust and make it profitable again, regardless of value.  Watch.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 2, 2018)

I had hunches Monero would rise when it was 50, Ripple when it was 20 cents, among others. I was always too afraid to dive in. Lot of regrets, and now the game is so complicated I don't get those hunches anymore, and since I need very little money to be happy in this world, I have decided to not risk what little savings I do have.  :/ I wish I had the guts to pull the trigger on Monero when it was a 50 a coin though, dangit. I still think it is the future, since the underground has embraced it fully.


----------



## hat (Jul 3, 2018)

New Nicehash Legacy miner out...

It has support for this X16R algorithm. Nicehash seems to be autoswitching to it, despite its bad profitability. Right now it's at $1.40/day, but if I disable that algorithm, the nest best seems to be DaggerKeccak at roughly $2.12/day...

Maybe a bug in Nicehash's benchmark program? It shows roughly 16MH/s under each card for that algorithm, but that's what it runs at with both cards... one card running it alone seems to do aroud 7MH/s.


----------



## John Naylor (Jul 3, 2018)

hat said:


> Since then, everybody jumped on the bandwagon and now a GTX1070 is averaging $1/day now. If half the miners fell off the face of the earth, those of us left would be getting paid more.



Running at 300 watts, costs me about $2 a day to run my box.


----------



## hat (Jul 3, 2018)

That seems a bit costly. Not sure if you've done it or not, but you can usually overclock and decrease power consumption a little with something like Afterburner. I run +55 core, +400 mem and 80% power target on my 1070s.

I think the profitability of the other coins have tanked since this time last year. We're just not seeing the same rewards we were a year ago. We were getting $5/day per GTX1070 back when BTC was worth ~$3000... so the BTC/day rewards had to have been much higher.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 3, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> My point was the profit margin is not directly coorelating to price.  By nature of crypto, it will adjust and make it profitable again, regardless of value.  Watch.


The only way that happens is if a lot hardware gets out.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The only way that happens is if a lot hardware gets out.



Yeah?  And then what when the profits back?

Can you seriously not see it's natural cyclic nature?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 3, 2018)

The market is shrinking which is why the price is falling.  The only way the "profit" comes "back" is if the market grows.  It's only "cyclical" if it grows again which it may never.  In which case, this slow attrition that's been happening over the last half year will slowly drive hardware out until there's only hobbyists left making a pittance on transaction fees.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The market is shrinking which is why the price is falling.  The only way the "profit" comes "back" is if the market grows.  It's only "cyclical" if it grows again which it may never.  In which case, this slow attrition that's been happening over the last half year will slowly drive hardware out until there's only hobbyists left making a pittance on transaction fees.



so you think and we all know you think negative as far as crypto is concerned.. and yes it is down over the last half year but its up over the last full year and its up over the last full week.. 

what happens next is a total unknown.. he he..

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 3, 2018)

That's not how mining works, Ford. Most crypto at least (who knows, out of the many there are, maybe some don't) have built-in mechanisms to maintain profitability. Hardware leaves the pool of available resources, which drops the difficulty, which means larger shares for those that remain, maintaining profitability. We're in a lull right now, and not enough hardware has dropped out to drop the difficulty, so profitability is indeed low. The "cycle" that RTB is referring to is the difficulty cycle, not the dollar value.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 3, 2018)

All cryptocurrencies are only worth what people are willing to pay.  That's dwindling too.

Everything is linked to dollar value.  People bought hardware with dollars to mine to sell cryptocurrencies to investors which paid in dollars.  The market is shrinking because the investors are leaving.  It's getting harder and harder to find a buyer for cryptocurrencies as trading volumes fall.  Holders are paying to sustain cryptocurrencies out of pocket because selling now barely breaks even.  Some stop entirely which decreases difficulty but those that remain are still fighting over scraps.  Without new investments to buy all of the cryptocurrencies holders have the "lull" is self propagating.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Everything is linked to dollar value.



In this case more dollar profit, but yes.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> All cryptocurrencies are only worth what people are willing to pay.  That's dwindling too.
> 
> Everything is linked to dollar value.  People bought hardware with dollars to mine to sell cryptocurrencies to investors which paid in dollars.  The market is shrinking because the investors are leaving.  It's getting harder and harder to find a buyer for cryptocurrencies as trading volumes fall.  Holders are paying to sustain cryptocurrencies out of pocket because selling now barely breaks even.  Some stop entirely which decreases difficulty but those that remain are still fighting over scraps.  Without new investments to buy all of the cryptocurrencies holders have the "lull" is self propagating.



You're missing the point. No matter the dollar value of a bitcoin, the cycle that RTB was referring to exists. Yes, the overall dollar value of a bitcoin may move, which will affect overall profitability. But as mining becomes less profitable, miners exit, decreasing difficulty, increasing rewards per miner. The math isn't hard, dude. If you get more bitcoin per transaction, you make more dollars per transaction. This insulates the miner in the mid-term against rising and falling prices.

Short term and long term are obviously more predicated on the dollar pair.

To illustrate: Yes, 7k is my magic number for me to consider myself profitable *at the current difficulty.* If difficulty of some key coins drop, I'll be profitable even under 7k and could start mining now, because I'd make more coins per transaction, which would make up for the drop in price.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2018)

Bitcoin didn't spike to over $10k because of miners, it spiked because of outside investment (mostly retirees looking for high yield place to put their money).  Without another infusion of money, profitability is going to move in lockstep with difficulty to the floor.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 4, 2018)

Your level of myopia in a discussion astounds me Ford.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2018)

Cryptocurrency exchange theft surges in first half of 2018: report

Thefts in 2018 have already exceeded three times of what was stolen for all of 2017.  There's also been a three fold boom in using cryptocurrencies to launder money.


----------



## LFaWolf (Jul 4, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Bitcoin didn't spike to over $10k because of miners, it spiked because of outside investment (mostly retirees looking for high yield place to put their money).  Without another infusion of money, profitability is going to move in lockstep with difficulty to the floor.



I am curious, how do you know this, specifically retirees looking for high yield place to put their money? Bitcoin is very risky and as far as I can tell not an usual investment for risk averse retirees.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 4, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Your level of myopia in a discussion astounds me Ford.



Honestly, it amazes me anyone still even tries with him.


----------



## R0H1T (Jul 4, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I am curious, how do you know this, specifically retirees looking for high yield place to put their money? Bitcoin is very risky and as far as I can tell not an usual investment for risk averse retirees.


He might be talking about individual investors. Even in my part of the world *computer illiterate* people were talking about mining & investing into BTC or ETH. Imagine the hype in first world countries.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I am curious, how do you know this, specifically retirees looking for high yield place to put their money? Bitcoin is very risky and as far as I can tell not an usual investment for risk averse retirees.


There were news articles and stories back in early 2017/early 2018 of people acting like brokerages convincing people to invest in cryptocurrency often without informing them of the risks.  Large chunks of retirement funds have been lost.


----------



## silkstone (Jul 4, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> There were news articles and stories back in early 2017/early 2018 of people acting like brokerages convincing people to invest in cryptocurrency often without informing them of the risks.  Large chunks of retirement funds have been lost.



I thought that was Iceland?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2018)

Maybe? It's likely to be happening everywhere when you consider $9 Million Lost Each Day In Cryptocurrency Scams.  Not the specific case I was looking for before but here's a Ponzi scheme setup that used the cryptocurrency buzzword to defraud people: Scams Cost Investors Millions In Lost Retirement Funds.



R0H1T said:


> He might be talking about individual investors. Even in my part of the world *computer illiterate* people were talking about mining & investing into BTC or ETH. Imagine the hype in first world countries.


Yes, the computer illiterate fundamentally powered the 2017 boom just like they did when the buzzwords were "American Online" and "Hotmail" in the 1990s.  That's why I don't expect BTC to get anywhere close to $20K for a very, very long time (if ever).  The computer illiterate know "cryptocurrency" is trouble just like "time share" and "your computer is infected."  "Fool me once..."


----------



## LFaWolf (Jul 4, 2018)

From the articles these are outright scams, where the money was taken to buy luxury cars and yachts, not bitcoin, so they do not contribute to the rise of the price of bitcoin, nor were they affected by the drop in bitcoin price. I still don’t see the connection.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2018)

As I said, there were a plethora of articles and reports at the turn of the year (before this thread was made) but they're drowned out by more recent articles.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 4, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> There were news articles and stories back in early 2017/early 2018 of people acting like brokerages convincing people to invest in cryptocurrency often without informing them of the risks.  Large chunks of retirement funds have been lost.



This happens with securities?  People can be wrong?

The articles did indeed not inform them of the risks, but they had their own motivations not to do so.  Namely they were invested in the market and had no reason to do so legally.  Which is why a legal framework is important, but must not be suffocating either.

I'd actually argue it's more important to regulate crypto related sales and ads than crypto itself.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 4, 2018)

Or maybe, take responsibility for your damn self, and don't rely on mommy and daddy government to save you when you make stupid decisions.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 4, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Or maybe, take responsibility for your damn self, and don't rely on mommy and daddy government to save you when you make stupid decisions.



That is one perspective too, yes.


----------



## LFaWolf (Jul 4, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> As I said, there were a plethora of articles and reports at the turn of the year (before this thread was made) but they're drowned out by more recent articles.



I did a quick Google search and found no evidence at all. I am not looking for a single case or some crazy investors. We are talking about a systematic way of investment which is the only way that could be pumping the price of bitcoin. I think it is what you feel happened, not that it actually happened.

Anyway, I am not sure but I feel you have an axe to grind against bitcoin or other coins. It is like you can't wait for their demise. From what I can see, the spread and reach are now too far and too wide for them just to die. They will be around for a while. People that invest or buy coins without understanding have no one else to blame but themselves. Coins scams are no different from other scams such as real estate. Caveat emptor I say.

I think block chain is an interesting technology. However, I am not a miner, since I learned a lot of the coins were used for shadowy transactions. I don't care if the coins survive or thrive. Sometimes I am just curious about the profitability of coin mining.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 4, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Anyway, I am not sure but I feel you have an axe to grind against bitcoin or other coins.



I mean I'm sorry, but the reason I dropped from this debate is how blatantly transparent that is with Ford.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 5, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I did a quick Google search and found no evidence at all. I am not looking for a single case or some crazy investors. We are talking about a systematic way of investment which is the only way that could be pumping the price of bitcoin. I think it is what you feel happened, not that it actually happened.
> 
> Anyway, I am not sure but I feel you have an axe to grind against bitcoin or other coins. It is like you can't wait for their demise. From what I can see, the spread and reach are now too far and too wide for them just to die. They will be around for a while. People that invest or buy coins without understanding have no one else to blame but themselves. Coins scams are no different from other scams such as real estate. Caveat emptor I say.
> 
> I think block chain is an interesting technology. However, I am not a miner, since I learned a lot of the coins were used for shadowy transactions. I don't care if the coins survive or thrive. Sometimes I am just curious about the profitability of coin mining.


You're missing the point.  I'll provide a specific example: Man Who Lost $22,000 In Cryptocurrency Scam: ‘I Gave Him The Password’.  This guy pumped $22,000 into cryptocurrencies on the rise to $20k.  The money was stolen because he's computer illiterate but he was one of thousands, if not millions, investing (not mining) to cause the surge.  People like him aren't likely to touch crypto again.


----------



## LFaWolf (Jul 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You're missing the point.  I'll provide a specific example: Man Who Lost $22,000 In Cryptocurrency Scam: ‘I Gave Him The Password’.  This guy pumped $22,000 into cryptocurrencies on the rise to $20k.  The money was stolen because he's computer illiterate but he was one of thousands, if not millions, investing (not mining) to cause the surge.  People like him aren't likely to touch crypto again.



No, I am right on point. I said before - 1) not looking for a single case, 2) the person you quoted was scammed giving remote access to someone who stole the money, not using the money to pump into cryptocurrency and lose money from the fall of cryptocurrency. The $22k has NOTHING to do with the rise or fall of cryptocurrency market.


----------



## hat (Jul 5, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> No, I am right on point. I said before - 1) not looking for a single case, 2) the person you quoted was scammed giving remote access to someone who stole the money, not using the money to pump into cryptocurrency and lose money from the fall of cryptocurrency. The $22k has NOTHING to do with the rise or fall of cryptocurrency market.



I'm with you on that one. One guy getting scammed is neither going to affect the price of any cryptocurrency, nor does it show one way or the other whether cryptocurrency is a viable thing or not. If I gave you my online banking password, I'm sure you'd be able to clean that out all the same...

The only questions that article does raise is what number he called and where he got it from... it shows that there's places you can put cryptocurrency that aren't as trustworthy as an established bank, and it shows that people will invest in things they know little about. Most people who are really into crypto use a hardware wallet of some type, or software wallet (computer program?), which they have control over, not some institution.


----------



## silkstone (Jul 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You're missing the point.  I'll provide a specific example: Man Who Lost $22,000 In Cryptocurrency Scam: ‘I Gave Him The Password’.  This guy pumped $22,000 into cryptocurrencies on the rise to $20k.  The money was stolen because he's computer illiterate but he was one of thousands, if not millions, investing (not mining) to cause the surge.  People like him aren't likely to touch crypto again.



I think you are overestimating the pervasiveness of crypto investing in the world, Ford. It is a very small market, with very few players. You might feel like it is 'everywhere' and lots of people have invested in it because the media attention around it is not in line with the amount of money involved.
For a comparison, the market cap of Apple is around 900 B USD, in comparison, the market cap of crypto is ~300 B. A single NASDAQ company's market cap greatly exceeds  the market cap of any single coin.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 5, 2018)

People like him are the reason why the market expanded: low knowledge investors buying cryptocurrencies that miners cashed out on.  The fact he was scammed was what caused it to be reported on.  The point was he invested money which pumped up the price of cryptocurrencies (granted, a tiny bit, but he wasn't the only one buying into cryptocurrencies in November/December). Sprinkle manipulation on top and you have a bubble about to burst.



silkstone said:


> For a comparison, the market cap of Apple is around 900 B USD, in comparison, the market cap of crypto is ~300 B. A single NASDAQ company's market cap greatly exceeds  the market cap of any single coin.


BTC had a market cap of over 900 billion before the bubble burst.  Virtually every 401K out there has a stake in Apple.


----------



## hat (Jul 5, 2018)

I always figured it was just plain manipulation done by the big players. It's always going up and down...


----------



## silkstone (Jul 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> People like him are the reason why the market expanded: low knowledge investors buying cryptocurrencies that miners cashed out on.  The fact he was scammed was what caused it to be reported on.  The point was he invested money which pumped up the price of cryptocurrencies (granted, a tiny bit, but he wasn't the only one buying into cryptocurrencies in November/December). Sprinkle manipulation on top and you have a bubble about to burst.
> 
> 
> BTC had a market cap of over 900 billion before the bubble burst.  Virtually every 401K out there has a stake in Apple.



It was still lower than the Market cap of a single company. The market cap of all global equities is somewhere in the range of 70 Trillion dollars. The crypto market makes up for 0.005% of global equities and is quite insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The money involved isn't even close to the amount of money in the dotcom bubble where 5 trillion was wiped out almost overnight.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 5, 2018)

ford is just crypto negative for the sake of being crypto negative.. people who have followed the thread for a while are fully aware of this.. newcomers may not be.. 

its currently on a little (unexpected) uptrend.. i think it could be due for another break upwards but then again it could do what some so called experts are saying and go lower before it goes higher.. i just read one guy saying it will hit 2000 before it hits 20000.. i cant see any reason why it has to go lower before it goes higher but some do think this..

as for bubbles.. they have already burst.. maybe that is part of the "go lower before it goes higher" principle.. buggered if i know.. 

trog


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jul 5, 2018)

I think Ford has made this thread for some fantastic reading!

If it wasn't for him this thread would be as boring as bat shit.

Keep it up Ford : )


----------



## trog100 (Jul 5, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> I think Ford has made this thread for some fantastic reading!
> 
> If it wasn't for him this thread would be as boring as bat shit.
> 
> Keep it up Ford : )



i would entirely agree.. ford has kept the thread alive.. he he

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 5, 2018)

trog100 said:


> its currently on a little (unexpected) uptrend.. i think it could be due for another break upwards but then again it could do what some so called experts are saying and go lower before it goes higher.. i just read one guy saying it will hit 2000 before it hits 20000.. i cant see any reason why it has to go lower before it goes higher but some do think this..


Because there's nothing exciting about cryptocurrencies anymore.  There's nothing to spur investment.  Without investments, the market deflates.


----------



## LFaWolf (Jul 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> People like him are the reason why the market expanded: low knowledge investors buying cryptocurrencies that miners cashed out on.  The fact he was scammed was what caused it to be reported on.  The point was he invested money which pumped up the price of cryptocurrencies (granted, a tiny bit, but he wasn't the only one buying into cryptocurrencies in November/December). Sprinkle manipulation on top and you have a bubble about to burst.



Just your opinion. For all we know Larry Ellison could be manipulating bitcoin. But it is pointless to argue anyway.  No one knows the true reason of the rise and fall of bitcoin. It is just a gamble.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 5, 2018)

He could be and in which case, he would fall under "investor" in my statement.

Bitcoins ledgers are public so we have a pretty good idea the manipulation is happening.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 5, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Because there's nothing exciting about cryptocurrencies anymore.  There's nothing to spur investment.  Without investments, the market deflates.



true but going lower before it goes higher isnt quite the same as just going lower.. it presupposes that at some time something will come along that does excite the market and cause your general belief that down is the only way to go to reverse.. the statement it will hit 2,000 before it hits 20,000 did contain the words before the year end.. he he.. 

there is quite a strong belief that the crypto doldrums we have been stuck in for a while will reverse and crypto will head back to the highs we have seen before.. if that belief is strong enough that fact alone is enough to make sure it does.. i think potential big money investors are just waiting for what is considered a genuine bottom to be confirmed.. once that happens the money will soon flow back into the markets.. 

but then again (unlike you ford) i could wrong.. he he..

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 5, 2018)

I don't usually make public predictions, but... now might be a good time to exit.

EDIT: As a side note, I'd like to throw out this gem in response to Ford's constant harping on "Crypto isn't a currency, it's a security"... 
Jay Clayton says crypto is not a security

I'm sure Ford knows better than the Chairman of the SEC though.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 5, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> I don't usually make public predictions, but... now might be a good time to exit.
> 
> EDIT: As a side note, I'd like to throw out this gem in response to Ford's constant harping on "Crypto isn't a currency, it's a security"...
> Jay Clayton says crypto is not a security
> ...



you could well be right.. but i made up my mind a long time back to stick with it and not sell.. i am still mining eth and holding it.. only the future knows if my decision to hodle on is the right or the wrong one.. he he

i dont need the cash so will leave it there in crypto land and see what happens.. 

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 5, 2018)

I may yet be wrong. 6500 was a key support line for a rally. We're flirting with the line at the moment... if it goes significantly below we could be looking at a new low for the year. The classic "bull trap." But it did go back above 6500, so perhaps I'm wrong. I'll buy back in for a small loss if it hits 6700 again. 

I just don't understand hodling like this. Take the money and run. You just got a profit in the last week (IF you were playing the game and not holding.) Take it and go, or at least take out your earnings. Then when you see what you think is the bottom, buy back in. You can't make money if you're constantly losing it.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 6, 2018)

i dont pay much attention to temporary support lines and such.. i watch what stuff does long term and think long term i am too lazy to trade the stuff.. 

if prices keep going down i will be watching an investment decrease in value if they go up i will be watching an investment increase in value.. currently things seem to be going sideways with no major ups or downs ether way.. i watch the price of gold silver and bitcoin.. i dont seem to view any of  it as spendable money.. things would have to get pretty bad for me to sell anything i have long term stashed away.. he he

also i only stash things away i dont need.. one day i might but again i hope that day never comes.. maybe i should have been a squirrel.. 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 6, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Jay Clayton says crypto is not a security


At first he was confusing.  Journalist asked him "are initial coin offerings securities" to which he responded "correct."  Then later he says he's not going to regulate it and instead encourages ICOs to file as IPOs (tie the cryptocurrency to a publicly traded company).

The impression I get is that he feels as SEC chairman it's not his job to try to regulate cryptocurrencies.  Unless he's given an executive order or a Congressional act, that is his interpretation of his role which is fine.  Nothing in code says he must regulate cryptocurrencies.  Commodity Futures Trading Commission does regulate cryptocurrency futures and perhaps he feels that is enough seeing how he didn't say anything against it at the end of the video.

Thing is, cryptocurrencies need regulation so people can trust the market to invest in it.  The fact he doesn't want to regulate it is going to keep investors at bay because it's too risky.




trog100 said:


> i watch what stuff does long term and think long term i am too lazy to trade the stuff..


That's why Woznick got out: it's a mental chore to hold cryptocurrency because of the volatility.


----------



## hat (Jul 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's why Woznick got out: it's a mental chore to hold cryptocurrency because of the volatility.



That much I agree with. I just mine and build BTC. I keep an eye on the price to get an idea of how much it's worth, but I don't play the trading game.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 6, 2018)

bitcoin as an investment.. it all seems to be about time scales.. bitcoin has lost 70% of it value since its all time high six months ago but that all time high was pretty impressive.. 

https://bitcoinist.com/nocoiners-investing-in-bitcoin-is-gambling-better-go-with-these-stocks/

trog


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## Papahyooie (Jul 6, 2018)

You're missing out.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 7, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Bitcoins ledgers are public so we have a pretty good idea the manipulation is happening.



I mean, yeah, people buy the price goes up.  That's what we know.

Is that honestly manipulation?


----------



## trog100 (Jul 8, 2018)

what the "experts" think... mostly the "expert" think is up.. the only question being how low it goes before the "up".. 

https://bitcoinist.com/6-recent-bitcoin-predictions-from-industry-experts/

me.. i think we are about to see or are seeing the start of the "up".. mind you i did say this a couple of months back and was wrong just like i might be this time.. he he..

i see a lot of money waiting for a "bottom" before it starts to move in.. once the money does start to move in up and away it will go back to the highs we have already seen..

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 8, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i see a lot of money waiting for a "bottom" before it starts to move in.. once the money does start to move in up and away it will go back to the highs we have already seen..


The "money" is likely associated with Trump's brewing trade war.  Global markets are in turmoil because of that and cryptocurrencies look relatively docile by comparison.  Not saying it has hit the bottom yet; just saying global markets are in flux right now.


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## trog100 (Jul 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The "money" is likely associated with Trump's brewing trade war.  Global markets are in turmoil because of that and cryptocurrencies look relatively docile by comparison.  Not saying it has hit the bottom yet; just saying global markets are in flux right now.



there is a lot of money floating about which has to go somewhere.. as you say crypto has got boring but boring may be seen as good.. he he

the potential "bottom" does seem to have been well tested recently.. the last seven days has seen a nice close to 10% uptick.. time will tell.. he he..

trog


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## trog100 (Jul 18, 2018)

yesterday saw another 10%-ish jump in crypto prices.. up to around $7400.. 

gold for reasons i cant figure has gone down a fair bit  over the last few days/weeks.. another crypto bull market may be on the way.. it would be interesting to see a repeat of last year.. 

trog


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## dorsetknob (Jul 18, 2018)

trog100 said:


> gold for reasons i cant figure has gone down a fair bit over the last few days/weeks.


Gold is a Physical commodity subject to market supply and demand
Example PC sales have dropped and therefor gold used in manufacture has declined (Small drop i know)


trog100 said:


> another crypto bull market may be on the way.. it would be interesting to see a repeat of last year..


Time to stock up on tranks/sedatives and anti depressants then


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 18, 2018)

trog100 said:


> yesterday saw another 10%-ish jump in crypto prices.. up to around $7400..
> 
> gold for reasons i cant figure has gone down a fair bit  over the last few days/weeks.. another crypto bull market may be on the way.. it would be interesting to see a repeat of last year..
> 
> trog


USD surged because of Fed raising interest rates.
Japan surged because of USD.
Cryptocurrencies surged and gold is down because of the news of both.

Frankly, this whole situation boggles the mind.  The US/Chinese trade war doesn't matter because economic data remains strong when it really has no right to be.

I would not bet on a cryptocurrency bull market.  I get the impression all of the securities markets are smoke and mirrors.  There will be chaos when the smoke clears.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...gold-brexit-blues-sink-sterling-idUSKBN1K8026


> Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell stuck with an upbeat assessment on the U.S. economy while downplaying the impact of global trade risks on the outlook for rate rises.
> 
> “It basically means another rate hike in September and most likely another one after that in December,” said Rabobank Market economist Stefan Koopman.
> 
> “He couldn’t stay away obviously from the potential threats of protectionism, but he is still waiting to see how everything pans out so he wasn’t really concerned about it - and that is giving the market another boost.”


----------



## yotano211 (Jul 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> USD surged because of Fed raising interest rates.
> Japan surged because of USD.
> Cryptocurrencies surged and gold is down because of the news of both.
> 
> ...


The US economy is showing small signs of going into a recession, I think it wont hit until 2020-21.


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## trog100 (Jul 18, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> The US economy is showing small signs of going into a recession, I think it wont hit until 2020-21.



the world economy is showing more than small signs of going into depression.. people hold gold as a back up (insurance) for when things go wrong.. which is why i cant figure it going down as it is.. he he..

maybe some of the money leaving gold will go into crypto.. buggered if i know none of it makes much sense.. 

the latter half of the year may turn into the interesting half.. 

trog


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## yotano211 (Jul 18, 2018)

trog100 said:


> the world economy is showing more than small signs of going into depression.. people hold gold as a back up (insurance) for when things go wrong.. which is why i cant figure it going down as it is.. he he..
> 
> maybe some of the money leaving gold will go into crypto.. buggered if i know none of it makes much sense..
> 
> ...


I dont know about the world but US wont go into a recession anytime this year. The current President's tax cuts from a few months ago pushed the next recession back for some time and also denied some power to fight the next recession from the Federal Treasury, and it might have made the next recession last longer.


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## MatGrow (Aug 4, 2018)

It's never stable. All the time changing. 
Where to invest better?


----------



## yotano211 (Aug 5, 2018)

MatGrow said:


> It's never stable. All the time changing.
> Where to invest better?


If you think that crypto is some kind of an investment you must be crazy.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> If you think that crypto is some kind of an investment you must be crazy.



I mean, it could be treated as such.  As a very high risk section of a portfolio.  But certainly not one you expect to pan out and NEVER as a high percentace of your holdings.

If you want safe and stable growth look into bonds, or a certificate of deposit.

EDIT:  What I spoke is truth. Why the downvotes?


----------



## silkstone (Aug 5, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> If you think that crypto is some kind of an investment you must be crazy.



It would have been a good investment 2-10 years ago. TBH I'm only holding crypto now as I'm kicking myself from my poor decisions before. I'd started mining bitcoin, back when you could get a 1 BTC a day from a 4850. I told myself that I'd just leave the computer on to mine them for a few months and save them for retirement on the very low chance that they'd increase. I went through a difficult period a few months after starting and ended up losing and selling what I'd mined and lost all interest in crypto. Big mistake. The second chance was back in late 2016 when I came across ETH, I was considering building some mining rigs to make a little profit every month and get back into the game, but I was saving for the deposit of an apartment, so I didn't want to risk it.

I'm in a better position financially now, though by no means rich. But, I can afford the electricity it uses and I paid for my harware with coins sold in the November pre-peaks. I know it is totally FOMO, but after missing the boat 2 times, I'd regret not doing saving them, if they went up. So at the end of the day, what I'm paying in electricity to mine is basically the cost to avoid future regrets.

I don't actually think that crypto will go much higher and we certainly won't see the gains we did in the 2017 period. I do think that some coins will find useful applications which is why I try to diversify what I mine. Sadly, for the past 6 months, while the amount of coins I've accumulated keeps raising, the $$$ value remains the same (ignoring the swings). The market seems to be in perpetual decline as people lose interest. I think that it's only a matter of time until adoption becomes more widespread and the value of some of the coins goes up. One thing I am happy for is that despite all the doom and gloom predictions, we have yet to see a dot-com like crash, with the exception of some shit-coins (man, I lost a bunch while focusing mining ZCL to get the BTCP airdrops!).



R-T-B said:


> I mean, it could be treated as such.  As a very high risk section of a portfolio.  But certainly not one you expect to pan out and NEVER as a high percentace of your holdings.
> 
> If you want safe and stable growth look into bonds, or a certificate of deposit.



If you are in the states a ROTH IRA is a good investment, otherwise ETFs are pretty much the best thing for long term growth. That is unless you can afford to buy-to-rent decent property.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 5, 2018)

i have been into crypto for nearly a year now.. i built a miner just for fun.. then i bought some coin..

i have seen my stash grow to near $20000 us dollars at the crypto peak and shrink back down to as low as $6000 us.. i have some eth litecoin neo cardano and btc..

the future is an unknown and whilst i am still mining (to hold) i stopped buying coin back in december 1017.. will it go up who knows but btc is still up over %100 from when i first started.. the long term trend is still up..

i did chase the prices up a little too far when buying but it did all look too good to miss.. when you see your stash going up by $2000 overnight its hard not to keep buying more.. he he

as for what to invest your money in.. some say the entire stock market is way over bought and due for a crash they say the same about the bond market the term "everything bubble" is being used meaning nothing is stable and its all due for a crash..

when or if the markets crash gold and silver will rocket in value some say the same about bitcoin.. some say the opposite..

its said the price of real gold bullion or coins  is governed by the price of comex paper gold which is how gold is traded.. now for the interesting bit.. they also say that for every ounce of real gold there are 500 paper claims on it.. all it takes is for a buyer or buyers to demand delivery in bullion instead of a paper certificate in US dollars and the whole lot will be exposed for the fraud that it has become.. gold will become "unobtainium" overnight.. it wont have a price it will simply not be available at any price..

a few gold or silver coins might be good things to buy even though just like crypto the current prices are very low and have recently gone down a fair bit and dont look good..

trog

ps.. the way the comex paper gold thing works is this.. when a buyer demands physical gold they have to supply it.. when they dont have it they have to go on the market and buy it at whatever price they can get it.. if the claims that for every real ounce they have there are 500 paper claims on it is true one can see the problem.. 

with fiat money and the ability to create more of it at will as governments can we also have fiat gold with the ability to create more of it at will.. it would seem to me that given this ability massive fraud and abuse is built into the system.. the power to create at will to solve short term problems will in the end result in massive run away inflation.. its happen to others and it will happen to us.. it does seem inevitable..


----------



## yotano211 (Aug 6, 2018)

silkstone said:


> It would have been a good investment 2-10 years ago. TBH I'm only holding crypto now as I'm kicking myself from my poor decisions before. I'd started mining bitcoin, back when you could get a 1 BTC a day from a 4850. I told myself that I'd just leave the computer on to mine them for a few months and save them for retirement on the very low chance that they'd increase. I went through a difficult period a few months after starting and ended up losing and selling what I'd mined and lost all interest in crypto. Big mistake. The second chance was back in late 2016 when I came across ETH, I was considering building some mining rigs to make a little profit every month and get back into the game, but I was saving for the deposit of an apartment, so I didn't want to risk it.
> 
> I'm in a better position financially now, though by no means rich. But, I can afford the electricity it uses and I paid for my harware with coins sold in the November pre-peaks. I know it is totally FOMO, but after missing the boat 2 times, I'd regret not doing saving them, if they went up. So at the end of the day, what I'm paying in electricity to mine is basically the cost to avoid future regrets.
> 
> ...


As an old analyst, I would never recommend yuppa suppa risks as investments. The things that you said are things that could of happened, and the people that held on to their BTC just got lucky that BTC prices increased the way they did. 
I know how you feel, I started mining ETH when it was at around $25 and I sold all of my coins when I mined them instead of holding them. I could have had an extra $100k+ if only I held but I not care. I made some money and sold all my equipment back in Feb. I have 2 investment fourplex buildings so I'm doing good.


----------



## silkstone (Aug 6, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> As an old analyst, I would never recommend yuppa suppa risks as investments. The things that you said are things that could of happened, and the people that held on to their BTC just got lucky that BTC prices increased the way they did.
> I know how you feel, I started mining ETH when it was at around $25 and I sold all of my coins when I mined them instead of holding them. I could have had an extra $100k+ if only I held but I not care. I made some money and sold all my equipment back in Feb. I have 2 investment fourplex buildings so I'm doing good.



The thing is, intellectually I know that, but still, missing out on a few hundred K to a million $ is still saddening and so I generally don't think about it. At the moment I have 1 mining rig drawing about 600 W from the wall so it's not like i'm investing all that heavily. I just made a plan to sell 1/2 until 2020 where I sell most of whatever is left.


----------



## yotano211 (Aug 6, 2018)

silkstone said:


> The thing is, intellectually I know that, but still, missing out on a few hundred K to a million $ is still saddening and so I generally don't think about it. At the moment I have 1 mining rig drawing about 600 W from the wall so it's not like i'm investing all that heavily. I just made a plan to sell 1/2 until 2020 where I sell most of whatever is left.





silkstone said:


> The thing is, intellectually I know that, but still, missing out on a few hundred K to a million $ is still saddening and so I generally don't think about it. At the moment I have 1 mining rig drawing about 600 W from the wall so it's not like i'm investing all that heavily. I just made a plan to sell 1/2 until 2020 where I sell most of whatever is left.



I don't think about having an extra $100k+. I'm happy with what I have, I'm not happy with tenants calling me 2am to open their door.


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## trog100 (Aug 11, 2018)

my nicehash miners are showing about .68 dollars per day per 1070 card.. things are looking grim.. he he

trog


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## hat (Aug 11, 2018)

Yeah, I'm barely making over a buck with two 1070s. This is due to the poor price of BTC at the moment. I'm still piling more BTC into my little stash which may one day be worth something significant to me. It would be nice if profitability could go up so we could earn more, but I don't see that happening, so I instead hope for a future explosion in BTC prices...

What will be interesting though is what happens to the market when the new Nvidia cards come out. Lots of possibilities there.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 11, 2018)

hat said:


> This is due to the poor price of BTC at the moment



Im not sure that's how it works mate. Its more the ETH price.

My 3x1070 are doing daggerhash which is ETH which will convert to BTC. If the price of ETH was a lot better our return of BTC will be much higher.

Please quote me if I'm wrong : )


----------



## trog100 (Aug 12, 2018)

yes its more down to what nicehash mines and the price of eth.. bitcoin is holding up better than the other coins.. eth is the problem and the one that needs to go up..

nicehash pays out in bitcoin but it dosnt mine it.. if what it mines is sh-t the pay out is sh-t.. the price of bitcoin will effect the value of what you are holding but not the daily cash payout..

trog


----------



## phill (Aug 12, 2018)

It's definitely gone to shite slowly over the last few weeks, months maybe..  Since the big drop, it's not quite gone back up to anything special..  Still holding coins, but they are severally worth less than what they where before..  

Thankfully, all  I had invested with a mate is covered, I guess I can't be too peeved at that


----------



## hat (Aug 12, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Im not sure that's how it works mate. Its more the ETH price.
> 
> My 3x1070 are doing daggerhash which is ETH which will convert to BTC. If the price of ETH was a lot better our return of BTC will be much higher.
> 
> Please quote me if I'm wrong : )


Yes, but if the price of BTC doubled tomorrow, I would see $2.80/day rather than $1.40/day, barring other market fluctuations. It's not just ETH that nicehash mines, either. Sure if there was a big upswing in ETH price most nicehash miners would be mining it due to the automatic algorithm switching, but nicehash also mines a bunch of other coins. Of course, you're still right that if the ETH market improved, we would see a higher payout simply because ETH is worth more.

Those $/day figures though are arbitrary figures of the estimated payout if you were to cash out right now. That's why fluctuations in BTC prices affect that. You still get paid the same amount of BTC, but if BTC is worth more, you get more dollars out of it.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 12, 2018)

hat said:


> Yes, but if the price of BTC doubled tomorrow, I would see $2.80/day rather than $1.40/day, barring other market fluctuations. It's not just ETH that nicehash mines, either. Sure if there was a big upswing in ETH price most nicehash miners would be mining it due to the automatic algorithm switching, but nicehash also mines a bunch of other coins. Of course, you're still right that if the ETH market improved, we would see a higher payout simply because ETH is worth more.
> 
> Those $/day figures though are arbitrary figures of the estimated payout if you were to cash out right now. That's why fluctuations in BTC prices affect that. You still get paid the same amount of BTC, but if BTC is worth more, you get more dollars out of it.



it dosnt work that way hat.. nicehash mines whatever it thinks is most profitable.. currently it seems to be eth.. lets say nicehash mines eth which currently isnt worth much.. the stuff (eth) what nicehash mines is then used to buy bitcoin which is what nicehash pays out in..

you are getting less bitcoin for the eth that nicehash is mining.. hence the low dollar pay out.. whilst bitcoin is around the same price.. the price of eth is dropping.. it was around $500 not long back its now around $300 this is why the nicehash payout is going down..

if the price of bitcoin doubled tomorrow and eth stayed the same the mined eth would simply buy half the amount of bitcoin.. what seems to be happening is the almost fixed link between bitcoin and the other coins seems to be breaking.. bitcoin is holding up while the other coins keep going down.. eth being a good example of this..

if the price of whatever it is that nicehash is mining doubles and bitcoin stays the same it would buy double the amount of bitcoin and the dollar payout would go up..

trog

ps.. over the last month bitcoin is up %1.5 percent not much change.. over the last month eth is down 25%.. this matches the nicehash dollar payout pretty well.. a 25% drop..


----------



## Durvelle27 (Aug 12, 2018)

I miss the days when I could mine on a single 290 and it pay itself off. It’s just to difficult and costly to do so now. Wish I would have done it longer back than. Just cashed in my stash I had left from back in 2012 and now regretting it 

And I don’t think mining will ever be as profitable as it was back than


----------



## trog100 (Aug 12, 2018)

Durvelle27 said:


> I miss the days when I could mine on a single 290 and it pay itself off. It’s just to difficult and costly to do so now. Wish I would have done it longer back than. Just cashed in my stash I had left from back in 2012 and now regretting it
> 
> And I don’t think mining will ever be as profitable as it was back than



for me its not even covering the cost of electricity at the moment.. if it gets any worse stubborn though i am i will just have to switch the gpu miners off.. 

trog


----------



## Tsukiyomi91 (Aug 12, 2018)

with how steep the difficulty curve gets each day/week for all the crypto-coins, Bitcoin or alternate-coins, I don't think it's viable enough to make good money, let alone paying your already expensive electric bills.


----------



## silkstone (Aug 12, 2018)

trog100 said:


> for me its not even covering the cost of electricity at the moment.. if it gets any worse stubborn though i am i will just have to switch the gpu miners off..
> 
> trog



I'm thinking of selling off what few cards I have mining and put some in alternate rigs. My daughter could do with a new desktop anyway. With the money I'd sell them for, I think I'd be able to get a 2nd 1080Ti that should keep my rig current through the next-gen of GPUs.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 12, 2018)

silkstone said:


> I'm thinking of selling off what few cards I have mining and put some in alternate rigs. My daughter could do with a new desktop anyway. With the money I'd sell them for, I think I'd be able to get a 2nd 1080Ti that should keep my rig current through the next-gen of GPUs.



that decision would come after switching the miners off.. he he

my sli 1070 desktop machine would stay as it just not run the mining software.. my eight 1070 card mining rig.. strip and sell the cards or hang on and hope things improve enough to switch it back on again.. .. 

trog


----------



## trog100 (Aug 14, 2018)

my two 1070 card desktop machine is now showing 1.14 US dollars per day..

it seems that crypto is dying from the bottom up.. bitcoin at the top is holding up moderately well whilst the other alt coins are going down in value.. 

purely a guess this but people must be selling their altcoins and buying bitcoin.. i think it really is time to turn my gpu miners off... i will check from time to time to see if things change.. 

trog


----------



## phill (Aug 14, 2018)

It's looking like it's going to take a dive..  Certainly been doing that over the last few days..  What a pain this crypto is lol


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 14, 2018)

Wonder if has something to do with the Chinese Yuan in a spiral.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 14, 2018)

an interesting piece here about the general crypto situation.. not as you can put too much faith in anything you read.. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...xapo-president-fears-altcoin-extinction-event

trog


----------



## xkm1948 (Aug 15, 2018)

Crypto coints crashing, good riddance. Less waste of energy to mine some useless stuff now


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 15, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Crypto coints crashing, good riddance. Less waste of energy to mine some useless stuff now



It won't die.  If that's your goal this is the wrong metric.

And if it stops megamanxtreme from downvoting me, I'm no longer mining, but I do have holdings.  I don't believe mining belongs in future crypto coins anyways.  Never have.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Aug 15, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It won't die



Nope : )

https://99bitcoins.com/obituary-stats/


----------



## RealNeil (Aug 15, 2018)

I could care less if crypto dies or not. The downturn is great for GPU prices and that's what I like.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 16, 2018)

I figure I am just going to keep mining just to waste energy. HashTagFirstWorldProblems.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 16, 2018)

RealNeil said:


> I could care less if crypto dies or not. The downturn is great for GPU prices and that's what I like.



I appreciate that your honest about your reasons.  Respect.


----------



## Durvelle27 (Aug 16, 2018)

I don’t think it’s crashing. Prices will be back up in due time. The market always fluctuates


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 16, 2018)

Markets trend and the trend is still down.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 16, 2018)

the trend is money is moving out of the other coins and into bitcoin.. the theory is that most of the (way too many) altcoins have to die and this is what is happening..

gpu mining is now dead.. eth is now down on the year bitcoin is still up 50% on the year and seems to be holding its own..

i will likely stop mining but will continue to hold..

gold and silver are also down.. the US dollar is up.. 

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Markets trend and the trend is still down.



Depending on when you source it from.  If we go from 2014ish we are still quite a bit up, and yes there were functional markets then.


----------



## xkm1948 (Sep 8, 2018)

What your coin masters' thoughts on Turing series GPU and potential GPU mining again in the future?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 8, 2018)

The price tag should make that obvious.  They want close to double the money for something like 35% faster at the best.  Quantities are also going to be limited.  The only way those cards would be attractive is if the Tensor cores can be used for mining, which I doubt.

It would take nothing short of a new, popular coin (fat chance) or another bubble (doubtful at least in the next several years) to bring GPUs back into mining.


----------



## hat (Sep 8, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> What your coin masters' thoughts on Turing series GPU and potential GPU mining again in the future?


Not unless the Tensor cores prove extremely useful for mining. Especially considering the high prices, you would have to be out of your mind to buy up Turing cards for mining. Hell, even ROI on cheap second hand cards is pretty abysmal right now.


----------



## xkm1948 (Sep 8, 2018)

I sincerely hope all these blockchain bubbles stay busted. It is better this way. Good god talking about wasting of energy.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 8, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> I sincerely hope all these blockchain bubbles stay busted. It is better this way. Good god talking about wasting of energy.



Doesn't have to be that way.  As usual, the first iteration (Various POW coins) has been pretty full of fail though.


----------



## dorsetknob (Sep 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It would take nothing short of a new, popular coin (fat chance) or another bubble (doubtful at least in the next several years) to bring GPUs back into mining.



You missed out on the New Coin 
Its Called the NV
You Buy a Nvidia Card and Nvida mine your Wallet for Coins  ( and Notes ) 
Seriously it won't be long before they offer some sort of Service based on Subscription for unlocking Card Functions


----------



## hat (Sep 8, 2018)

People would (hopefully) be at NV HQ with torches and pitchforks if they ever pulled that...


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 8, 2018)

They'll be doing this...





...never underestimate the blind ignorance of sheeple.


----------



## xkm1948 (Sep 8, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> You missed out on the New Coin
> Its Called the NV
> You Buy a Nvidia Card and Nvida mine your Wallet for Coins  ( and Notes )
> Seriously it won't be long before they offer some sort of Service based on Subscription for unlocking Card Functions




Honestly it should be *A**PPL**E* coin. NV sheeple is nothing comparing to the mindless flock of APPLE sheelpe. If Apple comes out with some blockchain coins you bet your ass that is gonna be the "Next Best Thing"


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 8, 2018)

I can already see it:  Apple will shutdown the iCloud mainframes and replace it with a blockchain that all Apple devices are a mandatory part of.  iCloud will become a service that's effectively free for Apple to operate and hugely profit off of.


----------



## damian246 (Sep 9, 2018)

Sounds like a apple plan. So far their plans worked out.


----------



## trog100 (Sep 10, 2018)

The Current State of Crypto Currency.. not looking that good.. he he

http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/crypto-mania-collapse-update-638-billion-gone/

trog


----------



## Crusti (Sep 10, 2018)

It's clearly seen that all other coins are following Bitcoin. I haven't seen any altcoin rising while Bitcoin falls. That's why there's almost no chance that any other coin will overtake Bitcoin one day.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 10, 2018)

Crusti said:


> It's clearly seen that all other coins are following Bitcoin. I haven't seen any altcoin rising while Bitcoin falls. That's why there's almost no chance that any other coin will overtake Bitcoin one day.



When bitcoin dies I won't weep.  I do hope sonething better spawns from it though.


----------



## theonek (Sep 10, 2018)

RealNeil said:


> I could care less if crypto dies or not. The downturn is great for GPU prices and that's what I like.


great or not, prices of the new NVidia cards shows a little different story - very overpriced for nothing....


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 10, 2018)

trog100 said:


> The Current State of Crypto Currency.. not looking that good.. he he
> 
> http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/crypto-mania-collapse-update-638-billion-gone/
> 
> trog


Can't say I didn't tell ya so.


----------



## damian246 (Sep 10, 2018)

What is interesting is an article on the upcomming reward cut the bitcoin mining will go thru: 
https://hx8800.com/bitcoin/bitcoin-mining-perils.html something to do with Murphy's law.
1rst it'll be harder to produce more capabilities, second electricity is in demand to cool those machines. 
3rd the reward which goes from 50% to 25% if I'm not mistaken. 

Actually the blockchain has done something to society, just not to the western. Some banks use blockchain instead of the 
SWIFT system which has security issues-


----------



## trog100 (Sep 10, 2018)

Crusti said:


> It's clearly seen that all other coins are following Bitcoin. I haven't seen any altcoin rising while Bitcoin falls. That's why there's almost no chance that any other coin will overtake Bitcoin one day.



over the last couple of months bitcoin has been holding its price around the 6500 or 7000 mark quite well... the other coins like eth or  litecoin have been going down and down.. so all other coins are not quite following bitcoin.. the relative values are changing with bitcoin holding value far more so than anything else..

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 10, 2018)

It makes sense if you think about it.  People are trading alt coins for BTC which they then exchange to dollars.  This flow is keeping BTC steady while the rest deflate.  BTC will be the last to deflate because everything else is flowing through it.


----------



## trog100 (Sep 12, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It makes sense if you think about it.  People are trading alt coins for BTC which they then exchange to dollars.  This flow is keeping BTC steady while the rest deflate.  BTC will be the last to deflate because everything else is flowing through it.



there is a certain logic to that theory.. the other option is that most of the alt coins have to die with only a few of the major ones surviving this is just that process in operation..

at some point the price point of the major coins will stop falling.. a new price point will be established and things may start going up again for the surviving coins..

i have some idea of whats going on but little idea of what happens next.. he he..

i may read the wrong stuff but something big (and scary) is about to happen and i think its connected with whats going on in Syria..

trog


----------



## Crusti (Sep 12, 2018)

trog100 said:


> over the last couple of months bitcoin has been holding its price around the 6500 or 7000 mark quite well... the other coins like eth or  litecoin have been going down and down.. so all other coins are not quite following bitcoin.. the relative values are changing with bitcoin holding value far more so than anything else..
> 
> trog


Probably I've missed that, you're right. But anyway I think that on the whole when Bitcoin falls no other coin start rising - they're all falling together.



R-T-B said:


> When bitcoin dies I won't weep.  I do hope sonething better spawns from it though.


Why do you think it will die?


----------



## GreiverBlade (Sep 12, 2018)

damian246 said:


> something to do with Murphy's law.


usually i would not post in a cryptocurrency thread .... but ... Murphy? ...

well ... it should be related to it... most law apply to BTC and altcoins ... ex:
If there is a wrong way to do something, then someone will do it.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

but in that article case it's Moore's law rather ...


----------



## damian246 (Sep 12, 2018)

GreiverBlade said:


> usually i would not post in a cryptocurrency thread .... but ... Murphy? ...
> 
> well ... it should be related to it... most law apply to BTC and altcoins ... ex:
> If there is a wrong way to do something, then someone will do it.
> ...



You mean Moore's Law most likely. The Processor power is coming to another limit and as mentioned before Nvidea profited nicely of the bitmania. 
Now it is becoming more expensive to mine. Few countries have a cheap electricity to make it feasible.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Sep 13, 2018)

damian246 said:


> You mean Moore's Law most likely. The Processor power is coming to another limit and as mentioned before Nvidea profited nicely of the bitmania.
> Now it is becoming more expensive to mine. Few countries have a cheap electricity to make it feasible.


i was refering to the quoted post that put Murphy's and pointing it was specified Moore's in the linked article, oh wait ... it was your post i quoted...

"You mean Moore's Law most likely " apply to you then 

anyhow ... i perfectly knew that


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 13, 2018)

Crusti said:


> Why do you think it will die?



I mean, it already has in terms of betraying it's own core values.  I'm pretty sure someone will always peg some value on it and trade it, but it's an old, dated, inefficient dying whale IMO.


----------



## damian246 (Sep 13, 2018)

As long as the people who believe in bitcoin stay with it it won't die. There are millions of people who like it. 
Me included, just there are a few spots I don't like. E.g. the not controlled wallets are a weakness never addressed.


----------



## Crusti (Sep 14, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I mean, it already has in terms of betraying it's own core values.  I'm pretty sure someone will always peg some value on it and trade it, but it's an old, dated, inefficient dying whale IMO.


It's not old at all, it's on the beginning only. Let's wait for the next year and you'll see that you weren't right on that point.



damian246 said:


> As long as the people who believe in bitcoin stay with it it won't die. There are millions of people who like it.
> Me included, just there are a few spots I don't like. E.g. the not controlled wallets are a weakness never addressed.


I'm sure that soon good blockchain systems will appear and we'll forget about fear of losing something and no one will know anything about our doings on web.


----------



## damian246 (Sep 14, 2018)

Crusti said:


> It's not old at all, it's on the beginning only. Let's wait for the next year and you'll see that you weren't right on that point.
> I'm sure that soon good blockchain systems will appear and we'll forget about fear of losing something and no one will know anything about our doings on web.



hahaha the problems lies in the human part of the enterprise and not on the blockchain.


----------



## hat (Sep 15, 2018)

I've had the idea in my head for a long time now that I could/would use the bitcoins I've earned mining for Nicehash for "frivolous purchases" such as... better PC hardware. I looked into it a little bit and evidently Newegg takes bitcoin, but I think you have to use bitpay? I've been using Coinbase for a long time now, and I just found out they have their own debit card that links to your account. Bitpay has one too, but Coinbase's seems more convenient. Evidently theirs derives the BTC value of whatever you bought and deducts that amount from your wallet, while with Bitpay's card, you have to manually shuffle around (sell) BTC and load that into your Bitpay card.

So, in theory, I could use BTC in my every day life just as easily as I do my debit card. I could even do ATM withdrawls.


----------



## Crusti (Sep 17, 2018)

damian246 said:


> hahaha the problems lies in the human part of the enterprise and not on the blockchain.



And how could someone check what I'm doing on the web if I'll use end-to-end encrypted service which doesn't require any of my information to register?


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2018)

ten bucks says Monero Coin triples in price by end of year, and BTC gains 1-2k max.  I think people like @FordGT90Concept underestimate how corrupt the world is.  politicians won't pass any legislation against crypto for a reason, meaningful legislation anyway. criminals, banks doing shady stuff, politicians wanting to filter some backchannel donations, all possible with Monero coin - sit on it for awhile and then BTC in the caymens under an affiliate organization - profit 

the world is corrupt and Monero has given them a voice of Anonymity 

I myself am going to invest in some Monero, I really do think it will skyrocket someday. I predicted it would go from 50 to over 100 a few years ago. I am getting the same feels deep inside.


----------



## yotano211 (Sep 17, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> ten bucks says Monero Coin triples in price by end of year, and BTC gains 1-2k max.  I think people like @FordGT90Concept underestimate how corrupt the world is.  politicians won't pass any legislation against crypto for a reason, meaningful legislation anyway. criminals, banks doing shady stuff, politicians wanting to filter some backchannel donations, all possible with Monero coin - sit on it for awhile and then BTC in the caymens under an affiliate organization - profit
> 
> the world is corrupt and Monero has given them a voice of Anonymity
> 
> I myself am going to invest in some Monero, I really do think it will skyrocket someday. I predicted it would go from 50 to over 100 a few years ago. I am getting the same feels deep inside.


If you like the coin so much then you should put down all of your money on it. Cash out all of your retirement account, if you have any, and go for it.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> If you like the coin so much then you should put down all of your money on it. Cash out all of your retirement account, if you have any, and go for it.



"Put all your eggs in one basket" said no investor, ever.


----------



## yotano211 (Sep 17, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> "Put all your eggs in one basket" said no investor, ever.


but but....., this person likes Monero so much.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 17, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> ten bucks says Monero Coin triples in price by end of year, and BTC gains 1-2k max.  I think people like @FordGT90Concept underestimate how corrupt the world is.  politicians won't pass any legislation against crypto for a reason, meaningful legislation anyway. criminals, banks doing shady stuff, politicians wanting to filter some backchannel donations, all possible with Monero coin - sit on it for awhile and then BTC in the caymens under an affiliate organization - profit
> 
> the world is corrupt and Monero has given them a voice of Anonymity
> 
> I myself am going to invest in some Monero, I really do think it will skyrocket someday. I predicted it would go from 50 to over 100 a few years ago. I am getting the same feels deep inside.


Cash?  Online orders of illegal products are still at risk of search and seizure while in transit (and have at least the destination on the package; most carriers also require the sending address which must line up with a valid billing address).  That's why most deals happen in person where cash is exchanged for product.

Congress is too busy with other matters to take up small fish like cryptocurrencies.  All action was undertaken by regulatory agencies under previous directives.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Cash?  Online orders of illegal products are still at risk of search and seizure while in transit (and have at least the destination on the package; most carriers also require the sending address which must line up with a valid billing address).  That's why most deals happen in person where cash is exchanged for product.
> 
> Congress is too busy with other matters to take up small fish like cryptocurrencies.  All action was undertaken by regulatory agencies under previous directives.



Possibly, but if Pablo Escobar at Monero coin instead of cash, he wouldn't have had to store in crates and bury it all the time because had so much he couldn't spend it fast enough. If he had Monero coin he could have created networks globally / instantly. He was only limited by cash and slowness of it. Politicians might look at the same way when they need to move large amounts of money, etc. Who knows. You are probably right though, Crypto is probably dead in the water, but we will see. Even if it stays where it is right now for a few years only changes back and forth 5-20% that entire time, I think its safe to say it has a large enough community / believers that it just won't ever go away, especially when you can use it to buy stuff from Overstock, Newegg, etc. Until government bans it (which they never will) it will exist whether we like it or not. I'm not sure I would ever play the betting game, but if Bitcoin is going to exist then so will Monero and Zcash... and ANON is key for a lot of people... so my logic says ANON coins will go up.  Monero is up already, 101 to 117 in just a few days... so my prediction is already coming true... should have invested then cashed out at 150 or 160, dangit.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 17, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> ...especially when you can use it to buy stuff from Overstock, Newegg, etc.


Literally no advantage over debit/credit card.



lynx29 said:


> Monero is up already, 101 to 117 in just a few days...


That's terrible inflation.  Inflation is bad in currencies, mmkay?


----------



## yotano211 (Sep 17, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Possibly, but if Pablo Escobar at Monero coin instead of cash, he wouldn't have had to store in crates and bury it all the time because had so much he couldn't spend it fast enough. If he had Monero coin he could have created networks globally / instantly. He was only limited by cash and slowness of it. Politicians might look at the same way when they need to move large amounts of money, etc. Who knows. You are probably right though, Crypto is probably dead in the water, but we will see. Even if it stays where it is right now for a few years only changes back and forth 5-20% that entire time, I think its safe to say it has a large enough community / believers that it just won't ever go away, especially when you can use it to buy stuff from Overstock, Newegg, etc. Until government bans it (which they never will) it will exist whether we like it or not. I'm not sure I would ever play the betting game, but if Bitcoin is going to exist then so will Monero and Zcash... and ANON is key for a lot of people... so my logic says ANON coins will go up.  Monero is up already, 101 to 117 in just a few days... so my prediction is already coming true... should have invested then cashed out at 150 or 160, dangit.


Are you really saying that if Pablo had Monero he can store it better than real cash. What Pablo did was highly illegal, the only way for him to hide the money was to burrow it. He was doing all of that to hide it from the authorities in the legal system from many countries. He could only show or bank so much money to draw action away from him. 
 Politicians or countries move large amounts of cash by either checks or direct deposits.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2018)

yotano211 said:


> Are you really saying that if Pablo had Monero he can store it better than real cash. What Pablo did was highly illegal, the only way for him to hide the money was to burrow it. He was doing all of that to hide it from the authorities in the legal system from many countries. He could only show or bank so much money to draw action away from him.
> Politicians or countries move large amounts of cash by either checks or direct deposits.



eh I still believe Monero > Monero > zcash > monero > bitcoin exchange in a distant friends name or some random person i picked and gave 10k cash to, has a better chance of staying ANON for large transactions in the Caymens, or other places the Law doesn't reach so fast.  if you wanted to get out fast and with a lot of money and not have your accounts frozen... monero... then find someone who is depserate for 10k cash, give it to them upfront, then have them get the rest of the money for you in their name, they cash it all out, boom your walking around the caymens with 200k in cash. - you can vanish without having your accounts frozen. the government and IRS does move fast on lot of corrupt politicians it seems, i remember reading about a few who had their accounts frozen... if they had monero they coulda booked rpivate plane and started over somewhere else.

monero is dangerous, personally i think it all needs to be shut down, all the exchanges.


----------



## sepheronx (Sep 17, 2018)

Current cryptocurrency market was becoming very bloated with too many altcoins, and bitcoin was getting way over inflated.  I still think it is over inflated.  But cryptocurrencies still hold 1 key advantage of them over fiat - anonymous trading.  Due to sanctioning other nations, crypto now can be a good alternative to trade with other nations since it can be reconverted back into fiat currency or used to purchase other goods from other nations which are not sanctioned, by sanctioned countries.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> Current cryptocurrency market was becoming very bloated with too many altcoins, and bitcoin was getting way over inflated.  I still think it is over inflated.  But cryptocurrencies still hold 1 key advantage of them over fiat - anonymous trading.  Due to sanctioning other nations, crypto now can be a good alternative to trade with other nations since it can be reconverted back into fiat currency or used to purchase other goods from other nations which are not sanctioned, by sanctioned countries.




that is part of the point I was trying to make, debit/credit/cash can be traced somewhat, even if not for very long, also their reach is much smaller than say monero transferred to someone across the world instantly without me having to register anything in a name, etc.  thats why its inherently dangerous. but who knows, time will tell.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's terrible inflation.  Inflation is bad in currencies, mmkay?



Uh, that's deflation, unless the dollar is inflating...


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2018)

Also one more reason Monero coin has long term value (imo) is that lets say you know you have done something bad like some of these politicians, or a mafia guy, or just a pablo escobar type but lower level and you know you might go to prison for a few years at some point down the road, well when you do historically they would freeze your assetts and confiscate them depending on the crimes committed, and it seems to happen a lot to those types of people - well Monero coin they can't freeze anything, after 5 years in prison, that USB drive you hid - your ready to go bb cakes --- another reason crypto is dangerous and needs to be destroyed by shutting down all exchanges in a UN mandated order, but the UN can't ever do anything, so crypto is here to stay, which is why I am betting on Monero... as the world continues to grow more and more chaotic. I see it as a stock market with Monero... it might not go up much in all honesty.  but I do believe its the future along with bitcoin exchanges and a long trail of confusion and error before it could ever be traced back to you, by which time you would be long gone (assuming your a big shot transferring a million or two) lol


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 17, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Uh, that's deflation, unless the dollar is inflating...


My bad: point is the inconsistency of cryptocurrencies makes them a dangerous reserve or even medium of exchange.  In the time it takes between the transaction occurred and the conversion to legal tender occurs, the value can deflate or inflate a lot.  That's a problem for any business, even illicit businesses.  It's difficult to settle debts when the value of the debt in the real world is relatively consistent but the value of Monero (or any cryptocurrency used) is so volatile.



lynx29 said:


> ...after 5 years in prison, that USB drive you hid...


It could have rusted to the point it is unreable.  Could have had cement poured on it.  Could have been stolen. Or Monero could be worth next to nothing.  Better off buying a bunch of bonds and putting them in a bank security lockbox.  Guaranteed to grow over the time you're in lock up.


----------



## yotano211 (Sep 18, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> eh I still believe Monero > Monero > zcash > monero > bitcoin exchange in a distant friends name or some random person i picked and gave 10k cash to, has a better chance of staying ANON for large transactions in the Caymens, or other places the Law doesn't reach so fast.  if you wanted to get out fast and with a lot of money and not have your accounts frozen... monero... then find someone who is depserate for 10k cash, give it to them upfront, then have them get the rest of the money for you in their name, they cash it all out, boom your walking around the caymens with 200k in cash. - you can vanish without having your accounts frozen. the government and IRS does move fast on lot of corrupt politicians it seems, i remember reading about a few who had their accounts frozen... if they had monero they coulda booked rpivate plane and started over somewhere else.
> 
> monero is dangerous, personally i think it all needs to be shut down, all the exchanges.


So you think that monero is the future and still think that all exchanges should be shut down. How are you going to cash out with all of your monero coins.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Guaranteed to grow over the time you're in lock up.



Or you know, be seized.

If you are conducting criminal activity, I would not expect institutionalized banking to protect you.


----------



## hat (Sep 18, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Or you know, be seized.
> 
> If you are conducting criminal activity, I would not expect institutionalized banking to protect you.



Well... if I were a criminal, I wouldn't count on Monero to save me either...


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

hat said:


> Well... if I were a criminal, I wouldn't count on Monero to save me either...



No cash is definitely king I admit. Hidden away somewhere. That being said, a USB drive hidden at relatives or friends house is easier to stash large amounts of money. Criminals do prefer cash only I think though, but who knows, we are not criminals and are not conducting business in the Caymens.



yotano211 said:


> So you think that monero is the future and still think that all exchanges should be shut down. How are you going to cash out with all of your monero coins.



you must not have read everything I wrote in last few posts. I think crypto is more dangerous than people realize, should be shut down in full by governments shutting down all exchanges through a United Nations resolution, but then I said I know for a fact the UN and most nations will never come to an agreement on what to do about cryptocurrency, so it will live for many years to come whether we like it or not, and that I would bet money in a stock market wager, that Monero is one of the few coins that will rise with Bitcoin or even if not rise, longevity wise.


----------



## damian246 (Sep 18, 2018)

Crusti said:


> And how could someone check what I'm doing on the web if I'll use end-to-end encrypted service which doesn't require any of my information to register?



A blockchain cannot prevent a corrupted user to use it. No blockchain can ever do those kind of stuff. 
Crooks use banks, Wallets, Gold, whatever suits them best. 

Most people sending their money over blockchains are pretty small time, the real damage is done by our upper echelons. 
Politicians love to paint that picture how the drug trade gets into BTC, forgetting that Pablo Escobar was able to ship containers with cash to Columbia.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

damian246 said:


> A blockchain cannot prevent a corrupted user to use it. No blockchain can ever do those kind of stuff.
> Crooks use banks, Wallets, Gold, whatever suits them best.
> 
> Most people sending their money over blockchains are pretty small time, the real damage is done by our upper echelons.
> Politicians love to paint that picture how the drug trade gets into BTC, forgetting that Pablo Escobar was able to ship containers with cash to Columbia.



pablo escobar still had to have a network around him though to make it all happen, a very big one which eventually led to his downfall. Monero would allow for lonewolves and fragmented networks of individuals to hold similar levels of power. and vanish quite often using affiliates to cash out in various countries.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2018)

hat said:


> Well... if I were a criminal, I wouldn't count on Monero to save me either...



No, I'd just recomend obeying the law.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> No, I'd just recomend obeying the law.



Yeah but that is why cryptocurrency is dangerous, say you have fundamentalists, violent ones, implanted in various countries in Europe, its prob rather difficult to get your money from the middle east to them, if i remember right, even Osamas bank accounts were frozen at one point with millions of dollars in them, imagine if he had monero, and was able to distribute it instantly amongst his other fragmented cells, and then they in turn were able to fragment it all up... untraceable... lonewolves with monero, and then all they have to do is either find an affiliate to trasnfer the bitcoin then to cash, or if their record was clean before they became implanted - do it themselves. Very dangerous times we live in. This is one of the main reasons why I argue all exchanges need to be shut down as fast as possible... sadly I have no faith in government to ever get anything done, let alone something not even on their radar. 

Bitcoin and coins will exist whether we like them or not, so you can either say eh I want nothing to do with it, or you can play it like the stock market, and treat certain coins as stocks. Long term or short term investments, and so on and so forth. I had mined Bitcoin in 2012 when it was very cheap... lost that HDD though many years ago. Very bummed I missed out. lol


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2018)

I also feel crypto needs a regulatory element to address that.  An all out ban is probably excessive though.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I also feel crypto needs a regulatory element to address that.  An all out ban is probably excessive though.



I don't see how you could regulate it, it would need a ban.

That being said, I honestly don't even feel confident it will ever make me money, I was considering investing in a few coins recently, but screw it. I like my money in the bank, as that is the easiest way for me to buy stuff I want at the moment. /shrug

funny thing is, my money just sits in bank because there is nothing I want to buy. gg life and capitalism. I wonder what happens to the markets if everyone gets bored of all this junk like me. lol, I use my publi c library card once in awhile, thats about it.  good thing most humans cant control their greed. capitalism would crash over night.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> I don't see how you could regulate it, it would need a ban.



A whitelist of exchanged, state endorsed currencies.  There are certainly ways.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

Are you guys sure bitcoin is dying? How did they get the invested for a 36 megawatt wind farm whose only goal is to mine bitcoin... hmmm im not bullish on bitcoin, but if the hyper and fever of it... could be nice to own one coin... you never know... its created its own little world of investors and people expecting a return, and those people are usually smarter than me.  thoughts? at anyone but also @FordGT90Concept 

https://arstechnica.com/information...gawatt-moroccan-wind-farm-for-bitcoin-mining/


----------



## dorsetknob (Sep 18, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> How did they get the invested for a 36 megawatt wind farm whose only goal is to mine bitcoin...



More Speculation With other peoples money Yeh !!!

The company, formed by New York private equity firm Brookstone Partners, hopes to raise $100 million to complete the project, which, in addition to the 36MW of wind, will include computing facilities that draw up to 18MW, as well as an energy storage system to power the computing center when the wind slacks.
Oh and its "" Only a Short Term Plan to mine Coin""
Long Term they are Speculating that they can get Connected to the National Electrical Grid and therefore sell the Generated power (for Real Money).


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

Doesn't change the fact its a lot of smart rich people expecting a return on investment.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 18, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Are you guys sure bitcoin is dying? How did they get the invested for a 36 megawatt wind farm whose only goal is to mine bitcoin... hmmm im not bullish on bitcoin, but if the hyper and fever of it... could be nice to own one coin... you never know... its created its own little world of investors and people expecting a return, and those people are usually smarter than me.  thoughts? at anyone but also @FordGT90Concept
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/information...gawatt-moroccan-wind-farm-for-bitcoin-mining/


Did you read it?  They're basically planning to build it in a warzone and are hoping to change Morrocan law.  Sounds to me like a scam: drum up investor support using cheap land (literally Sahara desert) and trending words (especially Bitcoin), buy the land and pretend you're gonna do what you said, take insurance out on the land, provide no resistance when the tribals seize the land back, and cash out on the insurance policy.

It says they hope "to raise $100 million to complete the project," "going to start construction...in January 2019," and "has the rights to 37,000 acres of land."  If they had the money, they'd probably already be working on it.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Did you read it?  They're basically planning to build it in a warzone and are hoping to change Morrocan law.  Sounds to me like a scam: drum up investor support using cheap land (literally Sahara desert) and trending words (especially Bitcoin), buy the land and pretend you're gonna do what you said, take insurance out on the land, provide no resistance when the tribals seize the land back, and cash out on the insurance policy.
> 
> It says they're "hoping to raise $100 million" and all it says they did is buy the land which is worth next to nothing.



That seems almost as far fetched as the original story. lol  but eh, its all nonsense, small fries like us dont matter in this game anymore.


----------



## dorsetknob (Sep 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Did you read it?


Yes i Did Read it 
It will not even get to the Groundworks stage
Expect they learned or are taking lessons from the Crowdfunding Scam
I also wonder how many Directors are  Nigerian Princes from Lagos


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 18, 2018)

This is what we're talking about...




...sand and lots of it.



dorsetknob said:


> Yes i Did Read it


Meant to quote lynx, fixed it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cryptocurrency exchanges at risk of manipulation: report


----------



## Crusti (Sep 21, 2018)

damian246 said:


> A blockchain cannot prevent a corrupted user to use it. No blockchain can ever do those kind of stuff.
> Crooks use banks, Wallets, Gold, whatever suits them best.
> 
> Most people sending their money over blockchains are pretty small time, the real damage is done by our upper echelons.
> Politicians love to paint that picture how the drug trade gets into BTC, forgetting that Pablo Escobar was able to ship containers with cash to Columbia.



Of course it can't and it's not only in blockchain. Terrorists and drug dealers and all the other bad people will always find ways in order to do their dark things.
Then we should block everything in order to save the world and it's impossible.


----------



## Papahyooie (Sep 21, 2018)

Lol at saying inflation is bad, then advising others to invest in bonds.


----------



## Mighty-Lu-Bu (Sep 21, 2018)

Wouldn't be surprised if cyrpto mining in the next 18 months is banned in the U.S.

United States Congress is already performing a full investigation on cryptocurrencies and crypto mining- I think the big reason for a possible ban is because cryptocurrencies have been tied to various criminal organizations.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 22, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Lol at saying inflation is bad, then advising others to invest in bonds.


Bonds are buying debt and gain money based on interest on said debt.  Because the federal government is required to pay interest before anything else, they are the safest investment there is.  Problem is the return on investment is low.  If the bond is local though, you may benefit from whatever the bond was created for (e.g. building a community swimming pool).


----------



## moproblems99 (Sep 22, 2018)

Mighty-Lu-Bu said:


> I think the big reason for a possible ban is because cryptocurrencies have been tied to various criminal organizations.



Goodness, it's a good thing those criminal agencies don't use the almighty dollar.  I would hate to see what happens then.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 22, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Goodness, it's a good thing those criminal agencies don't use the almighty dollar.  I would hate to see what happens then.



Doesn't matter if the perception of those in power is that crypto is a bad thing. It doesn't matter what is truthful or not truthful, its a matter of a bunch of old white men are fearful of it not.

Welcome to politics.


----------



## Mighty-Lu-Bu (Sep 22, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Goodness, it's a good thing those criminal agencies don't use the almighty dollar.  I would hate to see what happens then.



I was being sarcastic


----------



## moproblems99 (Sep 22, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Doesn't matter if the perception of those in power is that crypto is a bad thing. It doesn't matter what is truthful or not truthful, its a matter of a bunch of old white men are fearful of it not.
> 
> Welcome to politics.



They aren't scared of it.  They are trying to figure out how to get a piece of it.  In public or behind closed doors.

Welcome to politics.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Are you guys sure bitcoin is dying? How did they get the invested for a 36 megawatt wind farm whose only goal is to mine bitcoin... hmmm im not bullish on bitcoin, but if the hyper and fever of it... could be nice to own one coin... you never know... its created its own little world of investors and people expecting a return, and those people are usually smarter than me.  thoughts? at anyone but also @FordGT90Concept
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/information...gawatt-moroccan-wind-farm-for-bitcoin-mining/



I am speaking long term decades projection, and I'm sure someone will always be trading it.  I just think it's "dead" technologically speaking.



Mighty-Lu-Bu said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if cyrpto mining in the next 18 months is banned in the U.S.
> 
> United States Congress is already performing a full investigation on cryptocurrencies and crypto mining- I think the big reason for a possible ban is because cryptocurrencies have been tied to various criminal organizations.



I'd be shocked if there is ever a blanket ban, frankly.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 22, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> They aren't scared of it.  They are trying to figure out how to get a piece of it.  In public or behind closed doors.
> 
> Welcome to politics.



you better hope they don't embrace it. if they embrace it then it loses its value. because then its all taxed and the IRS will gain access to every single exchange and account in the world with america registrations on them at least. the U.S. Government always gets it tax money, always.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 22, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I'd be shocked if there is ever a blanket ban, frankly.


A blanket ban would be forbidding the operation of cryptocurrency exchanges in the USA.  Americans would have to use foreign exchanges to digitally convert cryptocurrencies to legal tender.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> A blanket ban would be forbidding the operation of cryptocurrency exchanges in the USA.  Americans would have to use foreign exchanges to digitally convert cryptocurrencies to legal tender.



A blanket ban would be on what I quoted, actually.  Mining and production and even holding the currency (hence my wording "blanket," covering all).  And like I said, I doubt that'll ever happen.  Heck, I find it implausible that your scenario will even happen.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 22, 2018)

The only way I see complete criminalization happening is if anonymization is hindering a vast majority of criminal investigations.  By that, I mean that people buying a cryptocurrency represents a reasonable suspicion that said person is involved in an allegedly criminal activity.  Judges across the country would issue warrants to search those records but, in cryptocurrencies like Monero, there's no records to obtain.  The cryptocurrency itself is considered obstructing justice; ergo, the only solution is to ban the cryptocurrency entirely.  Possessing the cryptocurrency raises suspicion, just like possessing a burner phone.  "What are you trying to hide?"


----------



## Papahyooie (Sep 22, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Bonds are buying debt and gain money based on interest on said debt.  Because the federal government is required to pay interest before anything else, they are the safest investment there is.  Problem is the return on investment is low.  If the bond is local though, you may benefit from whatever the bond was created for (e.g. building a community swimming pool).



And you think us crypto guys are buying funny money...


----------



## hat (Sep 23, 2018)

Cold day today - I started running the otherwise abysmal CryptoNightV7 CPU miner to generate a little more heat...


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 23, 2018)

hat said:


> Cold day today - I started running the otherwise abysmal CryptoNightV7 CPU miner to generate a little more heat...



What coin are you mining?


----------



## hat (Sep 23, 2018)

I use Nicehash, so basically whatever the Crypto gods see fit... usually I don't run the CPU miner at all because I get less than 10 cents/day out of it, but I am now just to load my CPU and produce some heat... however, now that it comes to mind, there are better things my CPU can be doing than mining a coin that might earn me a can of coke in 10 days...

GPU wise I ahve two 1070s still cruising, they usually dual mine DaggerHashimoto (ETH) and something else... Blake2s right now (no idea what that is).


----------



## damian246 (Oct 13, 2018)

Crusti said:


> Of course it can't and it's not only in blockchain. Terrorists and drug dealers and all the other bad people will always find ways in order to do their dark things.
> Then we should block everything in order to save the world and it's impossible.



Imagine that would happen, 15 of the biggest economies ban and punish every kind of use of the blockchain. Swift would be happy for once. 
The 15 Economies web retailers would be compelled to a.) go to a state where they are allowed to collect, or getting paid in BTC, ETH etc. [nice name for a new ICO? jejeje] 
or plainly not accepting coins any more. 

Most likely the rest of the 300+ countries will have a laugh and deal with the blockchain. Like it or not Blockchain is here to stay. 
BTC although outdated is still the father of all, and should those front runners of ETH and XRP are listening they should hurry with convincing retailers to be acceptable more often.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 13, 2018)

Fat chance of that last sentence happening.  I wouldn't be surprised if less than one customer that walks into your average store on an average day holds cryptocurrency.  Implementation cost wouldn't pay off.  Then they have to deal with exchanges that aren't regulated and hope that the cryptocurrency they are now in possession of will, in fact, convert to the local currency at a rate that will settle the debt they were owed by the customer.  BTC isn't has wild as it used to be but that risk is still there.  Oh, and lets not forget the crazy fees the blockchain demands to process a transaction.

Retailers that know what blockchain is about no longer want anything to do with it.  Or at least they won't unless the Federal Reserve and other regulatory bodies get involved.


----------



## dorsetknob (Oct 13, 2018)

damian246 said:


> Most likely the rest of the 300+ countries will have a laugh and deal with the blockchain.


Sorry but you need more Research  before you post ,until then anything you say is unbridled SPECULATION  BECAUSE YOU MAKE AND POST ERRORS
There are *195* countries in the world today. This total comprises *193* countries that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine.


----------



## sepheronx (Oct 13, 2018)

There is also my country, the Peoples Republic of Sepheronomia


----------



## OutThereSomewhere (Oct 13, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The only way I see complete criminalization happening is if anonymization is hindering a vast majority of criminal investigations.  By that, I mean that people buying a cryptocurrency represents a reasonable suspicion that said person is involved in an allegedly criminal activity.  Judges across the country would issue warrants to search those records but, in cryptocurrencies like Monero, there's no records to obtain.  The cryptocurrency itself is considered obstructing justice; ergo, the only solution is to ban the cryptocurrency entirely.  Possessing the cryptocurrency raises suspicion, just like possessing a burner phone.  "What are you trying to hide?"



Isn't all double standards when it comes to light (Which it has on many occasions) that banks have been knowingly laundering money for decades.
Now if CC was legal tender issued by banks would we having this debate?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 13, 2018)

Only governments can establish legal tender.


----------



## OutThereSomewhere (Oct 13, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Only governments can establish legal tender.



I know, and this seems like another attempt at control because we've already seen and heard the words Cashless Society echoed by the banks over and over again. 
So who's really afraid?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 13, 2018)

No one?  As far as the global economy is concerned, cryptocurrencies barely even register.


----------



## OutThereSomewhere (Oct 13, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> No one?



Really? So why the push to criminalize CC?, not to mention the push for a cashless society.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 13, 2018)

Regulators aren't criminalizing cryptocurrencies.  They're going after exchanges and businesses (e.g. Silk Road) that did illegal things.  They're also putting out warnings about cryptocurrency being manipulative.

Push to cashless started with credit cards then debit cards decades ago.  Also transaction clearinghouses.  One can't send physical cash through electronic wires.


----------



## damian246 (Oct 13, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Sorry but you need more Research  before you post ,until then anything you say is unbridled SPECULATION  BECAUSE YOU MAKE AND POST ERRORS
> There are *195* countries in the world today. This total comprises *193* countries that are member states of the United Nations and 2 countries that are non-member observer states: the Holy See and the State of Palestine.



It just was example what to imagine, did I mention this planet? 
So the entire comments is worthless because one detail sticks out you don't like?


----------



## Papahyooie (Oct 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Only governments can establish legal tender.


In other news, only liquid can make things wet.


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 31, 2018)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/9syzdl


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 31, 2018)

Here's the original source for that: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...D-DPzKiJbTX00zIC&tracking_referrer=www.cbc.ca


> Globally, ~314.2 billion cashless transactions are carried out every year,  of which Bitcoin’s share was ~0.033% in 2017.


I think they're being *quite* alarmist in their prediction.  They're modeling about 50% adoption (compared to the 0.033% last year) in 20 years.  That's wholly unrealistic.

Overall...not really anything new in that article.


Birthday blues for bitcoin as investors face year-on-year loss


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 31, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/9syzdl


Short sighted bs read the many posts here or thst follow that and There are alternative viewpoints, like with climate change, my personal stance remains the same.

An entity will make a crypto financial structure that replaces fiat , digitally.

No more banks on every corner.

No more Physical cash to consume resource to manufacture.

No need to move cash from pocket to palm or anywahere to or from a branch.

Now that's some carbon saved.

Brown envelope pay packets ended for me years ago , since then cash has been the Option not the norm.

Digital finance already rules , fact ,it beats out cash sales dramatically.

How long is cash about, a couple, maybe a few generations Max.

Not one mention of any coin above because imho That coins still a twinkle in a minds eye.

But ecologically and economically ,cash not crypto is in tatters.

Code can be improved,as can algorithms ,fiats not ever getting any better.


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 31, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Short sighted bs read the many posts here or thst follow that and There are alternative viewpoints, like with climate change, my personal stance remains the same.
> 
> An entity will make a crypto financial structure that replaces fiat , digitally.
> 
> ...




Good luck on all that.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Good luck on all that.


Like I want that per say, it's just the evolution of the way we use money.
A guy can have an opinion on what will happen without liking it dude.
As for eco comments.

Think about it but to make it nice for your brain replace crypto with apple psy googlepay or PayPal.

Now if all money right now switched to your favourite one of them, you know like when brown envelopes became bank accounts.

Right so were all on pay weva , close all banks fire the gaurds and bin the trucks logistics and such, oh and finally turn the f##kin lights off in banks and their offices after being on years.

Now that eco saving imho would eclipse the eco cost of the system that replaces it and also the crypto system we see now.
Again just an opinion , not a dream ,no bet in this game here.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> No more banks on every corner.


Where are you going to get a loan?



theoneandonlymrk said:


> No more Physical cash to consume resource to manufacture.


How are you going to pay for things when there is no internet access?



theoneandonlymrk said:


> No need to move cash from pocket to palm or anywahere to or from a branch.


I'd rather pay people to transport and protect a physical commodity than pay people to set up server farms in warehouses that burn power and have little to show for it.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> Digital finance already rules , fact ,it beats out cash sales dramatically.


Using debt/credit/ACH transfers that cost less than a cent to clear.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> Code can be improved,as can algorithms ,fiats not ever getting any better.


It's physical and digital.


A single ACH server could handle all of the transactions BTC does in a year for a few thousand dollars in operational cost (versus $116,041 USD for a single BTC block which is, what, ~10 minutes?).  All of the overhead cost of BTC is because of decentralization.  It's not worth it.  If decentralization is important (which I don't think it is), a more efficient solution will have to be found.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2018)

Ford it is easy to rebuttal a lot of those questions, but I would simply state that the banking system is far to powerful to ever overcome... the hubris of any man who thinks they are capable of that is very funny to me, even at Bitcoin's highest point, it was a fraction of 0.000001% of the world economy lol

Also, I would argue cash based system has its merits, because it allows for many industries, good or bad to exist when normally they can't because there is too many overseeing eyes - which in turn increases overall capital because more people are spending money, with bitcoin... people can and will watch every transaction.

Also, solar flares will wipe out the satellites every 100 years or so, so yeah... you probably don't want your entire economy digitised... not to mention the national security threat of other nation states taking out full grids during war time to halt your economy. Best to have a hybrid system like we do now.


----------



## Boatvan (Nov 1, 2018)

https://www.chepicap.com/en/news/48...to-coup-behind-oyster-s-recent-exit-scam.html

Just posting because it is relevant. Not expressing opinions, just a fascinating story.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

QUOTE "FordGT90Concept, post: 3933170, member: 60463"]Where are you going to get a loan?

Answer
Do they pass me cash when I get a loan , no a(any ol) company transfers a credit

How are you going to pay for things when there is no internet access?

Answer
Really , swipe pay like bank cards do now

I'd rather pay people to do that than pay people to set up server farms in warehouses that burn power and have little to show for it.

Answer
I don't personally care what you like or i like when it comes to what I Think the Man will do.
And that's not a viable argument if the environment were better off, people Can work elsewhere and do work where they want and can , and all those companies rape nature to make money.

Using debt/credit/ACH transfers that cost less than a cent to clear.

Answer
Read my post, you can use the digital brand you like ,this time im not banging the crypto drum , though I still think it will be involved of a sort.

It's physical and digital.

Answer
It's largely digital ,with a Physical option that costs serious money and power and staff to maintain, too much and we do pay for it.

Out of this months wages i like most will spend 60-80% digitally back out.

Sorry ford i did bad at formatting.

I respect your opinion, and I do like cash personally I prefer to see what I have, but i am continually forced to pay digitally, and imho The Man will colude with some Men to feck us over via a crash first, hopefully I am wrong on the last bit.
And i likely watched too much mr robot


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Ford it is easy to rebuttal a lot of those questions, but I would simply state that the banking system is far to powerful to ever overcome...


But it is not.  If you hate banks so much, close your account and get a credit union account.  It's a cooperative, not corporate.


Even so, I'd argue that the best solution for the alleged problem cryptocurrencies try to solve is having the UN set up and maintain ACH servers for global use and pass operational costs on to the institutions that use the service.  There's no reason why an ACH can't act like PayPal does on a global scale--it's just that no one has the authority to do so.  PayPal is a corporation settling debts with their own assets (which is why they are fast).


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> But it is not.  If you hate banks so much, close your account and get a credit union account.  It's a cooperative, not corporate.
> 
> 
> Even so, I'd argue that the best solution for the alleged problem cryptocurrencies try to solve is having the UN set up and maintain ACH servers for global use and pass operational costs on to the institutions that use the service.  There's no reason why an ACH can't act like PayPal does on a global scale--it's just that no one has the authority to do so.  PayPal is a corporation settling debts their their own assets (which is why they are fast).


They were not using their own assets as security on transaction one , they got big off transaction fees ,they were not already big, otherwise I agree.

But that doesn't kill crypto, and smart people are working on the very issues you and others see in them, it's not impossible that they arrive at a solution we could all get behind, but like going to mars, it's going to take development innovation and creativity to get there.

Just shutting it all down does not constitute progress in either case so i can't see it happening or back that ideology.

Imho the fed and our counterparts have been far from perfect and a better system can be found.

And I am definitely not getting behind any thread about an evolving technology just turning into loads of people slating it, i have seen loads of things called rotten before this point that i wouldn't be without now.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> They were not using their own assets as security on transaction one , they got big off transaction fees ,they were not already big, otherwise I agree.
> 
> But that doesn't kill crypto, and smart people are working on the very issues you and others see in them, it's not impossible that they arrive at a solution we could all get behind, but like going to mars, it's going to take development innovation and creativity to get there.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter if a better system can be found. You will never overthrow the power of the banks and government treasury bonds. The only reason America has not had to pay its debt on several wars is because we keep raising debt ceiling and other countries keep buying our treasury bonds, that stuff just won't translate over, its far to complex, and it is the only reason America keeps chugging along.
Hubris blinds all men.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Do they pass me cash when I get a loan , no a(any ol) company transfers a credit


Because it's same as cash (legal tender).  ACH (digital) is preferred because it is more efficient and secure.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> Really , swipe pay like bank cards do now


Banks don't swipe cards when there is no internet.  It's a very complicated process that involves the Federal Reserve and Treasury Notes in the USA.  Even when there is internet, certain aspects of transactions are still handled this way.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> I don't personally care what you like or i like when it comes to what I Think the Man will do.
> And that's not a viable argument if the environment were better off, people Can work elsewhere and do work where they want and can , and all those companies rape nature to make money.


Cryptocurrencies literally *do* "rape nature."  The environmental impact of financial institutions is minimal when considered as a function of employing people.  If the guards/transporters worked in trucking instead, they would likely have a similar environmental footprint.  If the clerks worked in healthcare instead, they would also have a similar footprint.  Take someone that runs a cryptocurrency operation and instead make them do a regular 9-5 job shutting down their mining operation, the environmental savings are huge.  This argument goes for most data farms though, not just cryptocurrency.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> It doesn't matter if a better system can be found. You will never overthrow the power of the banks and government treasury bonds. The only reason America has not had to pay its debt on several wars is because we keep raising debt ceiling and other countries keep buying our treasury bonds, that stuff just won't translate over, its far to complex, and it is the only reason America keeps chugging along.
> Hubris blinds all men.


As it appears to be doing so to you, because a plan has worked to this point doesn't mean continuous success for ever uncontested and America is certainly not uncontested in today's world.
I don't have any answers , mostly questions but I've an open mind on the matter, im looking at it objectively, hence why I have lestened my hate of trump ,i think at least his assertiveness is a plus , sorry im not v political i shouldn't mention it but im displaying ability to change my mind on topics.

Just not crypto, it's here to stay, updates are likely incoming.

@ford there are less difficulties, in doing all you have issues with,  then there are sending men to mars or cleaning the plastic out the ocean.

Thankfully I don't have to have all your Answers, as i said a tech based on crypto will emerge that's got enough of those issues resolved ,cash is not perfect , crypto is not perfect , you have answers for everything because you have debated every angle of this to a fine point so im not up for more with you, as i said i agree there are issues atm..

Data farms, whut are we pulling the plug on everything. Go you, id like to see you try that one


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> They were not using their own assets as security on transaction one , they got big off transaction fees ,they were not already big, otherwise I agree.
> 
> But that doesn't kill crypto, and smart people are working on the very issues you and others see in them, it's not impossible that they arrive at a solution we could all get behind, but like going to mars, it's going to take development innovation and creativity to get there.
> 
> ...


I totally agree a better system will eventually be created but I highly doubt it will be decentralized simply because of the cost of establishing trust.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I totally agree a better system will eventually be created but I highly doubt it will be decentralized simply because of the cost of establishing trust.


I think code or an algorithm or quatumm encryption or all of them can make both happen, decentralised and secure , at low cost.

It's the present invention that you have issues with most i think and I have issues with it too, i also as you know mined a bit and got involved a bit, for hobby purposes mostly though not massive financial gain.
But for years before that i folded@ home with no one calling me out for killing the environment, respectfully(i also bought a golf tdi to save the earth (but the man lied ,literally,its killing it)) ,i have issues with people telling me what I can and can't do while i Am being law abiding citizen like most.
So it grates a bit but to be fair i get it(the eco argument), so have always worked hard and spent money to keep power use constrained both folding or mining.(for example it has been my heating alone for five to seven years now)
After all the messing about i came to my prior mentioned conclusions, i hope im wrong because theirs anguish on that path.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I think code or an algorithm or quatumm encryption or all of them can make both happen, decentralised and secure , at low cost.
> 
> It's the present invention that you have issues with most i think and I have issues with it too, i also as you know mined a bit and got involved a bit, for hobby purposes mostly though not massive financial gain.
> But for years before that i folded@ home with no one calling me out for killing the environment, respectfully(i also bought a golf tdi to save the earth (but the man lied ,literally,its killing it)) ,i have issues with people telling me what I can and can't do while i Am being law abiding citizen like most.
> ...



Good luck stopping the United States military when you tell you want to decentralise their Federal paychecks.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Good luck stopping the United States military when you tell you want to decentralise their Federal paychecks.


What, shit I've only got a rat'ing rifle , luckily I am not an activist more a debater eh


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> But for years before that i folded@ home with no one calling me out for killing the environment...


It's a donation to a good cause and it's not designed to be wasteful for the sake of being wasteful.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's a donation to a good cause and it's not designed to be wasteful for the sake of being wasteful.


Fair enough but you see the power used and environmental impact are the same, it's ironic.
I am crunching for heat presently might have to start folding soon, it's getting cold in Old Trafford.

I seriously don't see why more don't heat with pcs (crunching obviously)

Im out till i find ny argumentativeness again nite.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I seriously don't see why more don't heat with pcs (crunching obviously)


I would if my systems were wasteful but they are not (95w TDP is my highest processor and I refuse to use GPU for science).  I end up using a ~600w space heater on top of my 20,000w furnace.  Winter be cold, yo.

Efficient computers mean low power bill in the summer.


----------



## hat (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I refuse to use GPU for science



Just out of dumb curiosity... why?


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2018)

hat said:


> Just out of dumb curiosity... why?



probably longevity for his gpu I guess, Folding does work them hard non-stop. but on the same hand, I don't recall of any GPU dying from it, so I am not sure


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

hat said:


> Just out of dumb curiosity... why?


More difficult to catch errors.  A "breakthrough" based on GPU computations could simply be the result of a computational error.  GPUs are fine to use as a proof of concept but to prove a result, it really needs to be done on CPUs.  This is why the vast majority of super computers are still CPU-centric.

I quit F@H because they moved from CPU to GPU.  To add insult to injury, they didn't add redundancy to double-check all results. So I moved to WCG and never looked back.  WCG is mostly CPU-based.  You have to opt-in to GPU work (never did) and I don't think they had a GPU-based project in a long time.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> More difficult to catch errors.  A "breakthrough" based on GPU computations could simply be the result of a computational error.  GPUs are fine to use as a proof of concept but to prove a result, it really needs to be done on CPUs.  This is why the vast majority of super computers are still CPU-centric.
> 
> I quit F@H because they moved from CPU to GPU.  To add insult to injury, they didn't add redundancy to double-check all results. So I moved to WCG and never looked back.  WCG is mostly CPU-based.  You have to opt-in to GPU work (never did) and I don't think they had a GPU-based project in a long time.



I mean, there are methods to check the results after the fact I'd assume.  They certainly are not useless for science.  That idea is silly.  Especially when we consider quadros/Workstation cards and such.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Cryptocurrencies literally *do* "rape nature."



So does pretty much everything man does involving carbon energy.  Choosing to care about this one particular energy use case while not paying much attention or assigning such harsh terms to others is quite showing of bias.


----------



## StrayKAT (Nov 1, 2018)

Did I miss something? I thought crypto would be less energy intensive? I mean, there'd be less big data centers and such. edit: Not to mention all the real estate that these places take.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Especially when we consider quadros/Workstation cards and such.


Rendering.  If a 0.12347 gets changed to 0.12348 when rendering, no one cares.  That difference in terms of science can be monumental.  For example, that tiny change in terms of light years is 95 billion meters.



R-T-B said:


> So does pretty much everything man does involving carbon energy.  Choosing to care about this one particular energy use case while not paying much attention or assigning such harsh terms to others is quite showing of bias.


Read the whole paragraph you quoted that from.  I can't name one use of energy that's as wasteful as cryptocurrencies.  The fact climate scientists are even taking a serious look at the impact should tell you how wasteful cryptocurrencies are.  The article cites 43.9 MtCO2e for BTC and Etherum.   USA's entire emissions for 2017 was 5142 MtCO2. That comes to 0.85%...and people want it to grow?


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I can't name one use of energy that's as wasteful as cryptocurrencies.



Depends on how much you value the result.  It has been obvious since this thread began you do not.  That said I will not debate they are wasteful.  But you know what?  A lot of things are.  I'm not into playing blame game with people's energy bills.



FordGT90Concept said:


> For example, that tiny change in terms of light years is 95 billion meters.



Depends on the context.  If we are talking about the approximate distance to a star it probably really doesn't matter.  My point is there are use cases and that's not really debatable.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Depends on how much you value the result.  It has been obvious since this thread began you do not.  That said I will not debate they are wasteful.  But you know what?  A lot of things are.  I'm not into playing blame game with people's energy bills.


Let me rephrase: How many failures does BTC require before there is a success?  What happens with all those failed results?  That is wasteful.

Another example of waste, for example, is festive lights, but like everything else, there's a race to improve efficiency, not reduce it.  A string of festive LED lights only use a few watts thanks to those improvements.  Additionally, the cost is an incentive for people to turn them off/take them down.  I wouldn't be surprised if one cryptocurrency farm consumes as much power in a day as a city uses for an entire season of festive lighting.

But let's extrapolate on that "incentive" component: BTC is designed to increase difficulty with time.  It is designed to get more and more wasteful with each block.  It literally has the opposite incentive that's healthy for participants and the planet.  It's like the gambling industry getting people hooked on wasting electricity on the hope that you'll discover a Bitcoin.

Cryptocurrency is a special kind of wasteful.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> How many failures does BTC require before there is a success? What happens with all those failed results? That is wasteful.



You should be looking at this from an ethics perspective ford.  Math is useless there.  You simply cannot quantify the value of an individuals percieved value in the product vs the cost, and since the equation you are looking for (cost vs benefit or product) depends on that, this is a useless way to examine it.  The large energy usage is literally irrelevant if the other side of the equation is an unknown.

Math and ethics are seldom useful to each other for this very reason.


----------



## hat (Nov 1, 2018)

That's where I have to wonder how anybody expected cryptocurrency in its current state to work. It certainly seems to be designed to be wasteful. A typical BTC transaction takes about an hour to process as it goes through (normally 6?) verifications... I suppose multiple verifications isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in a system doomed to fail, it doesn't help. When you consider that mining pays the miner and difficulty is built in to the system as a way to regulate itself when everyone and their grandma is doing it, it seems there's more than a simple payment network in mind.

If I can be allowed to be stupid for a moment, maybe it's like the law of equivalent exchange from Fullmetal Alchemist. You cannot create something from nothing, so you can't just invent a coin and say it's worth a million dollars, and trade it in for a million dollars. It has to garner value from somewhere. Maybe all the hardware being produced, which winds up being used for mining, and the energy going into that hardware to run it is part of its value. Yes, I know that the market value increases when actual money is dumped into it... as in, if someone bought 10,000 BTC tomorrow, the price would likely jump up quite a bit... but that doesn't seem to account for everything in my mind. If I bought those 10k BTC, who really cares? All I did was trade one currency for another. If things were a bit different, it could well be that my BTC is worthless and whoever sold it to me is laughing all the way to the bank. BTC has value because we give it value, in many ways. Buying hardware to run it and dumping energy into it is one way we give it value. 

If you look at it that way, BTC is just another product. How much resources do you think it takes to build and run a steel mill, for example? Or any other factory? I always thought Cryptocurrency was made as a way to give the everyday person a little bit of that power typically held with an iron grip by banks and governments. No, it's not the most efficient thing in the world, but literally anyone can do it, and a lot of people do... a lot of regular guys like you and me. Maybe that's why it's so large, and consumes so much power... because there was a large market for it just waiting to happen.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

Let me provide an example of how ridiculous BTC is:

BTC has a market cap of $112 billion.  IBM has a marketcap of $105 billion.

BTC is estimated to put out 36.6 MtCO2e in 2017. IBM put out  1.158 MtCO2e in 2017.

Similar valuation; 3,161% more carbon.

IBM's emissions are falling year over year; BTC's are rising.

'Nuff said.



R-T-B said:


> ...quantify the value of an individuals percieved value in the product vs the cost...


If a person buys a thing at a specific value then that's the value at which the buyer ascribes its worth.  Difficulty for BTC is going to rise regardless whether or not its individual worth does.  It's like a flame that's destined to run out of fuel.


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 1, 2018)

The argument of crypto being wasteful is full on 100% an opinion because it necessarily contains the element of how much you value the result.

To me, a decentralized money system is crucial to the long term maintenance of freedom. I value freedom highly. Therefore, I do not think it is wasteful. It's worth it to me. It isn't to you, but you cannot pass off that opinion as fact, as you tend to do, Ford.

Could a better, more efficient system be attained? Sure. And it will, eventually as long as crypto in general survives. Bitcoin is an early technology.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Let me provide an example of how ridiculous BTC is:
> 
> BTC has a market cap of $112 billion.  IBM has a marketcap of $105 billion.
> 
> ...



No.  You are still entirely missing the point.  The point is you will never convince someone who thinks BTC is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  That makes this whole debate moot.



Papahyooie said:


> The argument of crypto being wasteful is full on 100% an opinion because it necessarily contains the element of how much you value the result.



Thank you!  Someone got it.



FordGT90Concept said:


> If a person buys a thing at a specific value then that's the value at which the buyer ascribes its worth.



If that's the case then there was a time when BTC blocks were still net profitable.   Either way, I was talking the value of the network (presumably we all are) not the currency units.  You simply can't put a numeric value on an individuals value of that.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> If that's the case then there was a time when BTC blocks were still net profitable.   Either way, I was talking the value of the network (presumably we all are) not the currency units.  You simply can't put a numeric value on an individuals value of that.


That's what a market cap is.  BTC's is ~$111 billion (oh look, it fell a billion since yesterday).


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's what a market cap is.  BTC's is ~$111 billion (oh look, it fell a billion since yesterday).



That doesn't even buy 5 jets in our military, lol.  Sad.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 3, 2018)

I have a strong suspicion Monero is going to rise in price. I have seen... several more organisations begin to use it in the underground networks... Zcash on the other hand is never chosen in these... "communities"

Hmm. I have missed so many chances when I get this gut feeling I am right like 90% of the time... I think I will invest 1/3 of my savings, for long term, not going to play the short term. I also had this same feeling when Monero was $50 a coin, and it tripled in price within 6 months when I had that feeling the first time.


----------



## dorsetknob (Nov 7, 2018)

Free Coins 
The world's most popular bitcoin wallet is giving away $125 million worth of the cryptocurrency Stellar as part of a major initiative to encourage its use as a mainstream form of payment.

Blockchain, which is named after the technology that powers bitcoin, will give $25 of Stellar lumens (XLM) to its 30 million users starting this week, making it the largest cryptocurrency giveaway in history.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...-encourage-mass-adoption/ar-BBPriyk?li=AA54rU


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 7, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Free Coins
> The world's most popular bitcoin wallet is giving away $125 million worth of the cryptocurrency Stellar as part of a major initiative to encourage its use as a mainstream form of payment.
> 
> Blockchain, which is named after the technology that powers bitcoin, will give $25 of Stellar lumens (XLM) to its 30 million users starting this week, making it the largest cryptocurrency giveaway in history.
> ...


This is interesting. How much value will it ultimately have if it's free?


----------



## dorsetknob (Nov 7, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is interesting. How much value will it ultimately have if it's free?


How much does the free Baggy of (insert drug of choice) cost if you then go on for more.


----------



## StrayKAT (Nov 7, 2018)

You know what matters more than anything? Symbols and branding. A currency is almost a product in itself. Nothing named Zcash, Monero, Dogecoin.. or a mouthful like Ethereum would pick up in any widespread sense (if that's what you want).


----------



## moproblems99 (Nov 8, 2018)

Well I'll be damned, left the thread for a few weeks (or months, don't remember) and imagine that, it is the exact same conversation when I left.  Ford still refuses to acknowledge anyone said anything, people are still complaining about wasted energy usage and then turn around and game.  The only difference is the price of coins is still in the tank and GPUs are still sky high and they have no one to blame.  Except themselves.  

So here they are, back complaining in the crypto threads about an ideal that they can't figure out.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 8, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Well I'll be damned, left the thread for a few weeks (or months, don't remember) and imagine that, it is the exact same conversation when I left.  Ford still refuses to acknowledge anyone said anything, people are still complaining about wasted energy usage and then turn around and game.  The only difference is the price of coins is still in the tank and GPUs are still sky high and they have no one to blame.  Except themselves.
> 
> So here they are, back complaining in the crypto threads about an ideal that they can't figure out.



I predicted monero would rise a few days ago and it did.  tsk tsk on you for skipping over me


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 8, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's what a market cap is.



No, that is the net valuation of all the currency units.  It's not an individuals valueation of the network.  Please stop trying to dance around this point.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 8, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> How much does the free Baggy of (insert drug of choice) cost if you then go on for more.


Disturbing analogy, but I get your point.


----------



## R0H1T (Nov 8, 2018)

hat said:


> That's where I have to wonder how anybody expected cryptocurrency in its current state to work. It certainly seems to be designed to be wasteful. A typical BTC transaction takes about an hour to process as it goes through (normally 6?) verifications... I suppose multiple verifications isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in a system doomed to fail, it doesn't help. When you consider that mining pays the miner and difficulty is built in to the system as a way to regulate itself when everyone and their grandma is doing it, it seems there's more than a simple payment network in mind.
> 
> If I can be allowed to be stupid for a moment, *maybe it's like the law of equivalent exchange from Fullmetal Alchemist*. You cannot create something from nothing, so you can't just invent a coin and say it's worth a million dollars, and trade it in for a million dollars. It has to garner value from somewhere. Maybe all the hardware being produced, which winds up being used for mining, and the energy going into that hardware to run it is part of its value. Yes, I know that the market value increases when actual money is dumped into it... as in, if someone bought 10,000 BTC tomorrow, the price would likely jump up quite a bit... but that doesn't seem to account for everything in my mind. If I bought those 10k BTC, who really cares? All I did was trade one currency for another. If things were a bit different, it could well be that my BTC is worthless and whoever sold it to me is laughing all the way to the bank. BTC has value because we give it value, in many ways. Buying hardware to run it and dumping energy into it is one way we give it value.
> 
> If you look at it that way, BTC is just another product. How much resources do you think it takes to build and run a steel mill, for example? Or any other factory? I always thought Cryptocurrency was made as a way to give the everyday person a little bit of that power typically held with an iron grip by banks and governments. No, it's not the most efficient thing in the world, but literally anyone can do it, and a lot of people do... a lot of regular guys like you and me. Maybe that's why it's so large, and consumes so much power... because there was a large market for it just waiting to happen.


Except you always get less than what you put in, sometimes a little bit less & most of the times a lot less. This is especially true for energy conversion, which can be one way of describing crypto.


----------



## dorsetknob (Nov 9, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Except you always get less than what you put in, sometimes a little bit less & most of the times a lot less. This is especially true for energy conversion, which can be one way of describing crypto.



And there is
*Chinese headmaster fired over secret coin mining at school*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46150107

A Chinese headmaster has been fired after a secret stack of crypto-currency mining machines was found connected to his school's electricity supply.
Teachers at the school in Hunan became suspicious of a whirring noise that continued day and night, local media report.
This led to the discovery of the machines, which were mining the crypto-currency Ethereum.
They racked up an electricity bill of 14,700 yuan (£1,600).
The excessive electricity consumption had previously been reported to the headmaster, Lei Hua, but he reportedly dismissed it as being caused by air conditioners and heating devices.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 9, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> And there is
> *Chinese headmaster fired over secret coin mining at school*
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46150107
> 
> ...



So many people do get away with this though, and lazy bosses just end up writing it off as increased expensive, lol

amazing times we live in


----------



## lexluthermiester (Nov 9, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> amazing times we live in


That's not a new thing. There have always been people taking advantage of things. It a human trait, which is sometime a failure.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 10, 2018)

Relevant:


----------



## trog100 (Nov 10, 2018)

gee i wish i had a phone then i could buy things.. 

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 11, 2018)

> The excessive electricity consumption had previously been reported to the headmaster, Lei Hua, but he reportedly dismissed it as being caused by air conditioners and *heating devices.*



Heating devices.  Heh.  He's not wrong...  but my feeling is they were probably running air conditioning to fight the mining heat... lol.  Still, technically the truth.  I mean, it is.

But I wouldn't let an air conditioner and heater duke it out and claim it was well used electric either...


----------



## hat (Nov 11, 2018)

Truth be told, in addition to getting a little something for it, my 1070s do help keep me warm...


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 14, 2018)

UTXOs are on the rise... I won't go into what that means. Google it. But the short version is that the indicator preceded both of the huge bull markets for BTC. On top of that, BTC is at a year low... Gamblers might do well to take a look at buying today.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 20, 2018)

Bitcoin for payments a distant dream as usage dries up


----------



## moproblems99 (Nov 20, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> Gamblers might do well to take a look at buying today.



Did you?


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 20, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Did you?


I took a small, conservative position, yes. The first I've taken since mid-year. And doubled down last night when it hit 4500. I've said many times in this section, I'm not much of a gambler, so I'm not going to stake my life savings on it or anything. But I've made a tidy profit, being decent at reading the signs. We will see. I imagine this is the last chance for BTC, honestly. And I'm under no pretense that speculative bidding on BTC at this time is anything more than gambling, as I said.


----------



## R-T-B (Nov 20, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Bitcoin for payments a distant dream as usage dries up



That's because for payments, better crypto-currencies have existed now for quite a bit.


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 20, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> That's because for payments, better crypto-currencies have existed now for quite a bit.



And with much higher adoption for altcoins among exchanges like Coinbase, bitcoin as a transfer method is no longer essential.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 20, 2018)

Papahyooie said:


> And with much higher adoption for altcoins among exchanges like Coinbase, bitcoin as a transfer method is no longer essential.



I think someone is still buying, the price might be lower but Someone Is buying, the article ford listed notes institutions recognise it may require more work, some of them have money invested ,lots, is it just the sceptic in me that sees smokescreen like bs. To manipulate the price lower before a hike.


----------



## moproblems99 (Nov 20, 2018)

I have seen reports as low as $1500 expected but I am guessing that is merely to fuel the sell off.  I haven't set my point of buy-in yet because, truthfully, I am not sure if I see a surge in the future.  Near future anyway.

*edited for some crappy spelling.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 20, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> To manipulate the price lower before a hike.


But who is going to buy billions worth of BTC?


Edit: Something strange happened on the 14th:










BTC fell $600 or almost 10% in a matter of minutes.  That's ~$10 billion gone.  Then there's that awkward trickle of sales that started on the 19th leading to the bleeding of an additional ~$20 billion in two days.


Edit: Tried to find any information about that transaction(s) and I'm finding nothing.


----------



## dorsetknob (Nov 20, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> But who is going to buy billions worth of BTC?


? Suckinburg    to fuel in- site charges for his wuckbook site   Stranger things have happened


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 20, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> But who is going to buy billions worth of BTC?
> 
> 
> Edit: Something strange happened on the 14th:
> ...


I dunno but if you want to sell you can because someone is buying, it's a concern but i only have £50 risked so not a big concern.


----------



## trog100 (Nov 20, 2018)

i have about 1/3 of a bitcoin..  10 eth.. 25 litecoin 25 neo.. and about a thousand cardano.. at one point they were worth about 18000 us dollars they are around 3000.. now.. he he..

i shall just hang on to them and see what happens.. 

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Nov 20, 2018)

Oh I made the decision a long time ago that I was going to sell it when it was worth it or watch it turn to 0.  It's not a big enough investment to care.  Not that I like to lose $2000 every day but I learned a lot and had some fun along the way so it wasn't a complete waste.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 26, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i have about 1/3 of a bitcoin..  10 eth.. 25 litecoin 25 neo.. and about a thousand cardano.. at one point they were worth about 18000 us dollars they are around 3000.. now.. he he..
> 
> i shall just hang on to them and see what happens..
> 
> trog



yep, there is no point in selling for only 3 grand, might as well keep them long term and if it hits 0, no big deal. still worth it for the long game.


I was wrong about monero coin, I thought for sure it was going to double/triple in price only 4-6 weeks ago, I was right in that it rose a little bit shortly after my prediction, but not its like 60% of value in short period of time. I am actually still considering buying some, as the entire underground is still using it as the go to currency... it is definitely the black market currency of choice, and imo that gives it value.  i don't condone the activities of the black markets, however, it doesn't mean i can't profit off of monero by playing it like wall street plays the stock market.  I do believe Monero will rise again as it becomes the currency of choice in vast majority of underground sites.


----------



## moproblems99 (Nov 26, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> I was wrong about monero coin, I thought for sure it was going to double/triple in price only 4-6 weeks ago, I was right in that it rose a little bit shortly after my prediction, but not its like 60% of value in short period of time. I am actually still considering buying some, as the entire underground is still using it as the go to currency... it is definitely the black market currency of choice, and imo that gives it value.  i don't condone the activities of the black markets, however, it doesn't mean i can't profit off of monero by playing it like wall street plays the stock market.  I do believe Monero will rise again as it becomes the currency of choice in vast majority of underground sites.



Good Luck.  If there is anything you should have learned from this thread is that you can't predict it with the exception of when it hits mainstream and the collapse after.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 26, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> Good Luck.  If there is anything you should have learned from this thread is that you can't predict it with the exception of when it hits mainstream and the collapse after.



Well I actually never invested any money yet. lol  I just like to play it like a game, I was right about 80% of the time on both crypto and wall street stocks (that I fake play as well sometimes).  Shame I didn't become a broker, I have a good hunch the majority of the time, and that is how them fancy wall street boys make money basically.


----------



## moproblems99 (Nov 26, 2018)

I didn't know you had to become a broker to play...


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 26, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> I didn't know you had to become a broker to play...



A diverse portfolio is always the key. I'm saying I could have made a living out if it if I had studied it more... not saying it's for everyone...but sure...


----------



## MatGrow (Nov 26, 2018)

well, let's take a look at RED state of current situation.
What do you think?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 26, 2018)

$3720...

Edit: $3650...


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Nov 29, 2018)

Bitcoin dead 326 times and counting...  this time it's different...

https://99bitcoins.com/obituary-stats/

Even has death events filtered by year.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 29, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> $3720...
> 
> Edit: $3650...



where are you reading this?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Nov 29, 2018)

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=1W


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 30, 2018)

Current state of cryptocurrency mining: free heat.


----------



## R0H1T (Nov 30, 2018)

What if one uses a *chiller*


----------



## Papahyooie (Nov 30, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> What if one uses a *chiller*



The heat still has to go somewhere I guess...? But it wouldn't be nearly as efficient.


----------



## hat (Dec 2, 2018)

Then the chiller produces heat... more heat to keep the water chilled to whatever temp you set when you have more hardware in the loop...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 2, 2018)

Well, it looks like a government in the US is now officially recognizing cryptocoin as a legitimate currency.
https://ohiocrypto.com/
And it seems this is on the level..


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 2, 2018)

Not really.  Says on the page that they use BitPay to convert to USD on transaction.  Ohio could get burned by doing that.

And no: only the federal government has the ability to establish legal tender in the USA.  What Ohio is doing is like reprocessing something to pay back taxes.  They sell what they take because only the dollars matter to them.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Dec 2, 2018)

Yes they have to convert to the local usd, but the demand for btc keeps growing, slowly but surely.

And yes Ohio will get burned from dealing with bitpay, like other companies have learned, nobody should deal with bitpay.  Awareness is starting to spread, so I wouldn't think they'll be many transactions if any because of that.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 2, 2018)

yakk said:


> Yes they have to convert to the local usd, but the demand for btc keeps growing, slowly but surely.


It is not.  One can determine how popular a market is by trading volume:
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/



About $5 billion per day and stagnating.




yakk said:


> And yes Ohio will get burned from dealing with bitpay, like other companies have learned, nobody should deal with bitpay.  Awareness is starting to spread, so I wouldn't think they'll be many transactions if any because of that.


If BitPay fails to do the trade, it's not Ohio that will be in trouble but the payer.  It is every tax payers responsibility to make sure taxes are paid in full.

I think what is most likely going on here is that Ohio is trying to lure ICOs to their state so they can use their coin to pay owed state taxes.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Dec 2, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It is not.  One can determine how popular a market is by trading volume:
> https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/
> View attachment 111683
> About $5 billion per day and stagnating.
> ...



Marketcap doesn't really work well with cryptos.  Also with the growing offchain transaction & settlement possibilities now working I'd expect that metric to show stagnating, and most probably declining usage in the coming weeks/months.  The Lightning protocol alone is growing impressively quickly and can settle dozens+ of transactions for 1 recorded onchain.

Using bitpay is asking for trouble, unfortunately still lots of people will learn the hard way and blame bitcoin for it when it's just that company.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 3, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Not really. Says on the page that they use BitPay to convert to USD on transaction. Ohio could get burned by doing that.


Doesn't matter how you want to look at it, a government is accepting cryptocoin as payment for taxes. In doing so they are recognizing and legitimizing it as an accepted form of currency.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 3, 2018)

They are not.  The amount owed is in USD.  They're using BitPay to convert x number cryptocurrency to equal amount owed in USD.  They only accept USD.  Ohio is simply providing a convenience tool for that want to use it.



yakk said:


> Marketcap doesn't really work well with cryptos.


I wasn't talking about market capitalization, was I?


----------



## Vario (Dec 4, 2018)

https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/opinion-bitcoin-is-near-to-becoming-worthless-20181204



> In a MarketWatch column I wrote last April, I explained what it would take for bitcoin to become worthless. Bitcoin is getting close to that point. As I argued, once Bitcoin’s price falls below its cost of mining, the incentive to mine will deteriorate, thrusting bitcoin into a death spiral.
> 
> That is, without the mining activities supporting the ledger that maintains the records of who owns what — bitcoin is, after all, a set of encrypted numbers that cannot establish the ownership of anything — bitcoin will become worthless.
> ...
> ...


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 4, 2018)

Ha! Good point I overlooked.  Transaction fees will have to soar to incentivize miners.  High transaction fees means people choose not to use the network which means the market shrinks.  Rinse and repeat until there's only a handful of hobbyists left that don't care about the money.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 6, 2018)

Vario said:


> https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/opinion-bitcoin-is-near-to-becoming-worthless-20181204
> 
> As I argued, once Bitcoin’s price falls below its cost of mining, the incentive to mine will deteriorate, thrusting bitcoin into a death spiral.



That is pretty far from the truth as it can get. Bitcoin is not a company product, it similarities are more of an ant mound. The cost of mining is set so high that I wonder why no one has crunched their numbers. It is business to complain about prices.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They are not. The amount owed is in USD. They're using BitPay to convert x number cryptocurrency to equal amount owed in USD. They only accept USD. Ohio is simply providing a convenience tool for that want to use it.


Yes, but they are accepting cryptocoin as a valid form of payment, even if it's converted to USD. That is by lawful definition recognition of value and as cryptocoin is established and identified as a form of digital currency, by virtue of attrition, Ohio is recognizing cryptocoin as a form of currency, whether intentionally or not. It would be no different than if someone wanted to pay in British pounds. It would need conversion, but is a form of currency that is recognized. The states of Utah, California, Idaho, Texas and Florida are also considering accepting cryptocoin as well. Even the IRS is looking into it. Cryptocoin maybe at a low point but it is, for better or for worse, here to stay. I predict that it will soon become somewhat regulated.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 6, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> I predict that it will soon become somewhat regulated.



And it should be, specially the wallets which handle Value of other people. Too often it has happened that a wallet closes, gets hacked or "gets Hacked"


----------



## R0H1T (Dec 6, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Ha! Good point I overlooked.  Transaction fees will have to soar to incentivize miners.  High transaction fees means people choose not to use the network which means the market shrinks.  Rinse and repeat until there's only a handful of hobbyists left that don't care about the money.


Till the time hot money enters crypto, again ~ rinse & repeat! So long as there's (more) money to be gained/grown crypto will never die, but it also means that it'll never replace any major Fiat currency either.


----------



## moproblems99 (Dec 6, 2018)

Believe me, this low point in crypto only exists so it can climb again.  Hence, draw interest.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 6, 2018)

I wouldn't bet on that:
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XBT&to=USD&view=1M

It rises just to sell off again.  The market continues to deflate.  And there continues to be those weird dips and surges in price that may be indicative of manipulation.


----------



## Papahyooie (Dec 6, 2018)

Everybody cries manipulation when it goes up, but when it goes down, it's definitely the death of crypto and not manipulation.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 6, 2018)

BTC literally lost 15% in a matter of minutes on November 14.  No wallet holds that much value.

Then we see the same kind of manipulation on Nov 30-Dec 1where it dove about 8% to recover 8% on Dec 2. And again on Dec 3-4 where it dove and recovered about 5%.  And again on Dec 5-6 where it dove and recovered about 4%.  The pattern is too consistent to be coincidence.  Everytime it happens, whomever is doing it is likely sucking millions, if not billions out of the market.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 7, 2018)

As bitcoin trading shifts shape, big money stays away


> But exchanges and industry figures interviewed by Reuters said institutional investors such as asset managers, pension funds and investment banks remain largely absent from bitcoin trading, even as the shape of the market changes.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 16, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> As bitcoin trading shifts shape, big money stays away



The article mentioned Bitfinex, are they out of trouble?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 16, 2018)

Does it matter? The article Vario linked seems to be happening. Cryptocurrencies are down, down, down.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 16, 2018)

Sure does, last thing I read is that Bitfinex is facing criminal charges.

Sure Cryptos are down, so far none is really independent of BTC. 
I missing those *Pay with xxx * buttons on their respective websites to make difference. Won't happen.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 16, 2018)

Source?  All I'm seeing is they were investigated back in early 2018 but not finding anything recent.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 16, 2018)

Sure > https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-bitfinex-under-u-s-scrutiny-gets-ing-account
and https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitf...tion-under-scrutiny-from-us-doj-sources-claim


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 16, 2018)

First link is what was talking about (early 2018), second is a rereporting of this:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...minal-probe-is-said-to-focus-on-tie-to-tether

Which basically just says the investigation is still ongoing.  There's been no ruling/enforcement action yet.  Tether/Bitfinex maybe manipulating the market (again) but the movements right now aren't because of law enforcement action.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 30, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Which basically just says the investigation is still ongoing.  There's been no ruling/enforcement action yet.  Tether/Bitfinex maybe manipulating the market (again) but the movements right now aren't because of law enforcement action.



Did not mean to imply that anyway. It is not the only bad news which impede that crypto turns mainstream soon. 
Public usually needs a few years to forget. But not to worry once BTC storms up the ladder again, so people will ask (again) for credits to participate.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 31, 2018)

damian246 said:


> It is not the only bad news which impede that crypto turns mainstream soon.


Still not convinced it ever will.  2017 proved cryptocurrency is unsuitable for use as a currency.



damian246 said:


> But not to worry once BTC storms up the ladder again, so people will ask (again) for credits to participate.


You mean "manipulated again."  Cryptocurrencies have no hype anymore and without hype, it can't bubble.

It's your money, do what you please.  I haven't and won't touch it.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 31, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You mean "manipulated again."



Supply and demand is manipulation now?  Because that's exactly what he is describing.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 31, 2018)

Have you already forgotten? BTC supply is fixed. BTC demand has been shrinking for over a year.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 31, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Have you already forgotten? BTC supply is fixed. BTC demand has been shrinking for over a year.



It doesn't really matter when you are quoting a theoretical future in which demand increases (ie not manipulation).  BTW mining reward is signifigantly lower now than in the past, by design.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 31, 2018)

Demand is decreasing and there's nothing to remotely suggest demand will increase.  If investors considered BTC a safe haven, they'd be buying it en masse right now because of the global bear market/uncertainty but, they are not.  It's really not attractive to anyone except people settling debts in third world countries where banking is decidedly more sketchy than cryptocurrencies.

If mining rewards don't improve, the BTC blockchain will lose its capacity to process transactions.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 31, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Still not convinced it ever will.  2017 proved cryptocurrency is unsuitable for use as a currency.
> You mean "manipulated again."  Cryptocurrencies have no hype anymore and without hype, it can't bubble.
> It's your money, do what you please.  I haven't and won't touch it.



Thats Ok we are just debating.
I don't think that the tether manipulation is greatly responsible for that super hype.
neither do I believe that BTC is unsuitable for investment. What I think is that the entire cryptocurrency is overestimating its reach. 
Adjust your perspective 
Stock market is as much gamble as is BTC and other cryptos.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 31, 2018)

Stock markets are heavily regulated, cryptocurrencies are not.  If money is effectively stolen from you by insider trading, you could be compensated from by way of regulators suing the insider trader.  There's no such enforcement in cryptocurrencies.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Dec 31, 2018)

Just own your private keys then, don't trust your private keys to a centralized exchange.

Use a *decentralized* open-source exchange like BISQ which you can review the code yourself, compile the code yourself, and uses multi-signatures.


----------



## damian246 (Dec 31, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Stock markets are heavily regulated, cryptocurrencies are not.  If money is effectively stolen from you by insider trading, you could be compensated from by way of regulators suing the insider trader.  There's no such enforcement in cryptocurrencies.


True that is exactly the point I don't like either. When getting a wallet you  are forced to give ID, Place of living etc but the management can procure an exit scam as they are not controlled. Happened to me.

That does not make crypto unreliable, those developers didn't calculate in the human factor.

Stock exchanges have a grey area, so called penny stocks. Lots of exot scams going on there too.

Human factor.

Writing my own code? What kind of mass enabled currency requires writing code? 
Remember bitcoin is to replace fiat, Mr next door Brown should be able to use btc.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Dec 31, 2018)

Like using any fiat, there are multiple tiered ways to use bitcoin.  An accountant knows optimized and best practice to using fiat, an investment trader specializes in increasing their holdings, a cryptology programmer can engineer the most optimized way to use bitcoin.   Doesn't mean the average user can't use it, they can, but are just not specialized.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Dec 31, 2018)

damian246 said:


> Stock exchanges have a grey area, so called penny stocks. Lots of exot scams going on there too.


AMD was a penny stock on NYSE before switching to NASDAQ.  A "penny stock" is simply a stock listing that is trading at less than the exchanges minimum dollar value (for NYSE, that is $5/share).  AMD wasn't a scam and there was no reported scams involving AMD when they were considered a penny stock.

I think what you're getting at is that stocks not on traded on reputable exchanges are risky and that is true.  They still have to abide by laws and regulations, however.


----------



## Rand (Jan 3, 2019)

Stay away, crypto have peaked, the trust i gone


----------



## damian246 (Jan 3, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I think what you're getting at is that stocks not on traded on reputable exchanges are risky and that is true.  They still have to abide by laws and regulations, however.



Never watched to movie, Boilerroom? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181984/
Loosely based on https://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/10/...-pleas-in-sterling-foster-brokerage-case.html


----------



## theonedub (Jan 3, 2019)

Boiler Room was a great movie, highly entertaining. 

If you were drowning and I threw you a lifesaver, would you grab it? Yes? Buy 100 shares, I won't let you down.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 3, 2019)

damian246 said:


> Never watched to movie, Boilerroom? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181984/
> Loosely based on https://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/10/...-pleas-in-sterling-foster-brokerage-case.html





FordGT90Concept said:


> They still have to abide by laws and regulations, however.


"2 Indictments and 3 Guilty Pleas" 'nuff said.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jan 3, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Stock markets are heavily regulated, cryptocurrencies are not. If money is effectively stolen from you by insider trading, you could be compensated from by way of regulators suing the insider trader. There's no such enforcement in cryptocurrencies.



While not the stock market, ask many of Madoff's victims how much money they got back.

Edit: Actually, more than I thought.  Still plenty missing however.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 3, 2019)

Better than nothing which is about how much victims get from cryptocurrency fraud.  I don't think anyone has even been paid yet from Mt. Gox.  That's an exchange though...a registered business...so the law has some reach there.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jan 3, 2019)

That's about as useful as getting kicked in one testicle instead of two.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 20, 2019)

keep seeing some new coins called "Grin" even with Sapphire making a 16GB VRAM RX570 for it? Any idea about this thing? I hope mining aint trying to have another go again.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jan 21, 2019)

As long as any coin "entrepreneur" can convince enough people to willingly be scammed into thinking their latest & greatest altcoin or ICO (LoL) will take over all of crypto, a next wave of gpu mining is still very possible on an ever so slightly modified mining algorithm.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 21, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> keep seeing some new coins called "Grin" even with Sapphire making a 16GB VRAM RX570 for it? Any idea about this thing? I hope mining aint trying to have another go again.


https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...raphics-card-with-16gb-memory-but-why.251575/

Apparently it has forks that are ASIC resistant.  I really, really, really hope it doesn't gain traction because it literally exists for only one reason: to keep GPUs mining forever.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 21, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...raphics-card-with-16gb-memory-but-why.251575/
> 
> Apparently it has forks that are ASIC resistant.  I really, really, really hope it doesn't gain traction because it literally exists for only one reason: to keep GPUs mining forever.




Well if there is one group of people I truly hate that is crypto-miners and developers. F*ucking aholes doing nothing but finding new creative ways to waste energy as well as raw material (silicon and rare earth material used to build useless silicons mining unicore farts)


----------



## moproblems99 (Jan 21, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> as well as raw material



Luckily, crypto coins are made of magic - no raw materials needed.

EDIT:

Don't worry, I also heard there was an incoming RTX coin in order to get the community to generate all the jiggarays needed for proper real time ray tracing.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 21, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Luckily, crypto coins are made of magic - no raw materials needed.




ASIC mining chips are also made of magic? GPUs are made of magic? What are you smoking right now?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 21, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> ASIC mining chips are also made of magic? GPUs are made of magic? What are you smoking right now?


Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.



moproblems99 said:


> Don't worry, I also heard there was an incoming RTX coin in order to get the community to generate all the jiggarays needed for proper real time ray tracing.


Fantastic.  Here's hoping there's no buyers for it.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jan 21, 2019)

70c a day on blahhh.................


----------



## hat (Jan 23, 2019)

Don't really think that one will take off. If it can only be supported by RTX cards, that means there's very few pieces of hardware that it can run on compared to other coins. It doesn't have a very sturdy foundation.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jan 23, 2019)

Schwoosh....


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jan 23, 2019)

Trading electricity for virtual currency. Sounds like Enron.


----------



## Mescalamba (Jan 23, 2019)

How is that saying.. "Idiots are always best informed and most confident ppl."

Dunning-Kruger in practice..


----------



## damian246 (Feb 4, 2019)

Have you guys heard about Quadriga? 

The CEO dies and took the password with him. 
Consequences are: https://www.coindesk.com/quadriga-creditor-protection-filing


----------



## P4-630 (Feb 4, 2019)

damian246 said:


> Have you guys heard about Quadriga?
> 
> The CEO dies and took the password with him.
> Consequences are: https://www.coindesk.com/quadriga-creditor-protection-filing



https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...-million-cold-wallet-key-to-his-grave.252188/


----------



## notb (Feb 4, 2019)

damian246 said:


> Have you guys heard about Quadriga?
> 
> The CEO dies and took the password with him.
> Consequences are: https://www.coindesk.com/quadriga-creditor-protection-filing


Hilarious.
Until now I wasn't really interested in how crypto stocks work.

I wonder how many Quadriga clients would open an account in a brokerage firm or a bank where the owner could access their assets and "take them home" for safekeeping.
Imagine the headlines: bank owner dies and doesn't share a map to his treasure cave - clients lose lifetime savings.


----------



## damian246 (Feb 4, 2019)

notb said:


> Hilarious.
> Until now I wasn't really interested in how crypto stocks work.
> 
> I wonder how many Quadriga clients would open an account in a brokerage firm or a bank where the owner could access their assets and "take them home" for safekeeping.
> Imagine the headlines: bank owner dies and doesn't share a map to his treasure cave - clients lose lifetime savings.




Chances are different in each firm IMHO. Swissquote lets you keep Cryptos in Coldstorage. 
New firms with little or insufficient Info are to be avoided.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Feb 5, 2019)

Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey just jumped right in with a public Bitcoin Lightning transaction doing the developer rounds on twitter:

https://t.co/YVMAv62fCN

Needless to say....  this is a MASSIVE surprise to everyone involved!


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> Trading electricity for virtual currency. Sounds like Enron.





Mescalamba said:


> How is that saying.. "Idiots are always best informed and most confident ppl."
> 
> Dunning-Kruger in practice..



You know these general purpose "Waaah crypto bad, you stupid!" posts don't really add anything constructive to the thread, right?

If you're going to hate, at least bring something new to the thread or go home.



notb said:


> I wonder how many Quadriga clients would open an account in a brokerage firm or a bank where the owner could access their assets and "take them home" for safekeeping.



You do understand when you give a bank a savings account, they are essentially entitled to use that money, right?  For investing and such?  That's where the "interest" comes from?

Yes it's insured but the concept is the same, at least if my elementary school teacher was teaching us right (I have a feeling he was pretty on target if simplifying things).



damian246 said:


> New firms with little or insufficient Info are to be avoided.



This has been the story since day 1.  Crypto isn't different from any other financial instrument in that if you go into it blind, you will get robbed.


----------



## notb (Feb 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> You do understand when you give a bank a savings account, they are essentially entitled to use that money, right?  For investing and such?  That's where the "interest" comes from?
> Yes it's insured but the concept is the same, at least if my elementary school teacher was teaching us right (I have a feeling he was pretty on target if simplifying things).


No, it's not and they aren't using our money.
When you put your money into a bank account, what you own is that number you see on a website. And no matter what the bank does, this value stays the same. And the bank isn't allowed to access it or move it somewhere else when you don't look, which is exactly what happens on crypto exchanges.

So who's money are the banks using? Well, their money. 
You have to remember that money is not physical and banks aren't agencies that just help moving it around. Banks create money (and so it's called "money creation").
Long story short: banks can give loans up to a particular sum related to how much "cash" they have. And they do. It doesn't matter if they have deposits or not.
Which means they can give more loans than they have deposits.

And you shouldn't care about insurance. Insurance is for the banks' money, so that they get a compensation when, for example, they lose cash (they insure safes, trucks etc).

If you're a client of a bank, your money is not insured (even if it is called "deposit insurance"). It is guaranteed by the state. So when a bank has solvency problems, because they lost everything *they* had in bad investments or something like that and they can't give you *your* money, you're still guaranteed to get it back up to some limit ($250k in USA). This money is paid by the state, not the bank.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2019)

notb said:


> No, it's not and they aren't using our money.
> When you put your money into a bank account, what you own is that number you see on a website. And no matter what the bank does, this value stays the same. And the bank isn't allowed to access it or move it somewhere else when you don't look, which is exactly what happens on crypto exchanges.
> 
> So who's money are the banks using? Well, their money.
> ...



I feel like you can excuse my 5th grade general class teacher for using a simpler analogy when asked though.  But I appreciate the explanation.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 6, 2019)

if a bank is insolvent it can in essence take the depositors money to bail itself out.. when you put money in a bank you are simply lending them it to gamble with.. if they lose it you lose it..

 as for the state paying you that may not work that well if the state is basically insolvent as well.. they can of course print up some but it wont be worth that much.. counterfeit money never is.. not when its discovered thats exactly what it is..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 6, 2019)

trog100 said:


> counterfeit money never is..



I think you are misusing this term.  Counterfeit money can be worth something if it's good and you have no morals.  Rampant inflation currency created via printing press run amok (ala Zimbabwe) is NOT counterfeit, but if you need to buy dinner, you might be better off with some counterfeit bills that ARE worth passing off, heh.


----------



## moproblems99 (Feb 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> (ala Zimbabwe)



I have a few trillion Zimbabwean dollars if you are interested.  I know where a trillion of it is but I misplaced the other trillion.  Not to sure where that I ended up....might have used it on a pizza.


----------



## notb (Feb 6, 2019)

trog100 said:


> if a bank is insolvent it can in essence take the depositors money to bail itself out.. when you put money in a bank you are simply lending them it to gamble with.. if they lose it you lose it..


Incorrect.
Don't you get this? Deposit is just a value in a database. There is no money that the bank can take from you.
In fact by definition insolvency means the bank can't give you money that you wish to withdraw. They have none. So what exactly are they going to take? 


> as for the state paying you that may not work that well if the state is basically insolvent as well.. they can of course print up some but it wont be worth that much.. counterfeit money never is.. not when its discovered thats exactly what it is..


If your state is insolvent, you most likely have bigger problems than how quickly you'll get your money back. For example: there's no police, no army, no health and safety, no courts and in most cases no energy or clean water. 


R-T-B said:


> I feel like you can excuse my 5th grade general class teacher for using a simpler analogy when asked though.


I believe I can. But it's a very important concept in general, so it's worth knowing IMO.
And yeah... I think my "what is money" lesson at school wasn't that great either. In Poland you have 1 year of something called "introduction to entrepreneurship" or "introduction to business" in high school, but it's very basic and focused on practical aspects. I've always found this weird considering my 12 years of compulsory education included things as _important_ as knitting, making salads, drilling, cycling, 10 longest rivers on every continent and using WordArt.


----------



## Jetster (Feb 6, 2019)

A bank takes money, yours. Then they give loans for interest. The laws allows a percentage of leverage meaning they have more loans than cash. Then they insure this amount
And investment is buying something that has a track record of at least 10 years growth, 20 would be better. Mutual funds typically
Buying a single stock, any stock is a gamble. Unless it has a slow growth record of at least 10 years which is not many.
You will see very few wealthy people gamble. They like slow, sure growth


----------



## hat (Feb 6, 2019)

notb said:


> Incorrect.
> Don't you get this? Deposit is just a value in a database. There is no money that the bank can take from you.
> In fact by definition insolvency means the bank can't give you money that you wish to withdraw. They have none. So what exactly are they going to take?



You appear to be arguing semantics at this point. When you deposit money in a bank, you give them your money. They take your money, and your value increases in their database. The next day, they become insolvent, so they have no money to give you when you want it. That means they took your money and they do not give you your money, which they took from you when you deposited it.


----------



## Mescalamba (Feb 6, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> You know these general purpose "Waaah crypto bad, you stupid!" posts don't really add anything constructive to the thread, right?
> 
> If you're going to hate, at least bring something new to the thread or go home.



Was targeted towards amazing number of really stupid stuff in this thread related to crypto. People here (and not only here) have apparently no clue how crypto works, how currency or stock market works. Amount of ppl here that thinks they know something, while clearly they know nothing is too damn high..

Crypto is fine for me.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 7, 2019)

I want to see Ray Traced bitcoin  otherwise I don't care about mining. Actually it pisses me off. I remember the  GPUs' prices going up so damn much and I hated it.


----------



## Mescalamba (Feb 7, 2019)

ratirt said:


> I want to see Ray Traced bitcoin  otherwise I don't care about mining. Actually it pisses me off. I remember the  GPUs' prices going up so damn much and I hated it.



Unsure how you mean it, but there was some development around using tensor cores for ETH mining, just didnt seem to work for much ppl (if anyone).


----------



## ratirt (Feb 8, 2019)

Mescalamba said:


> Unsure how you mean it, but there was some development around using tensor cores for ETH mining, just didnt seem to work for much ppl (if anyone).


Actually I started with this as a joke. Meaning a coin which will be RayTraced since it's digital.  Now that you have mentioned it, does the RTXs' have better scaling in mining than GTX cards? I didn't look to this to be honest and I'm not sure. From what you're saying it should be better with tensor cores.


----------



## Mescalamba (Feb 8, 2019)

ratirt said:


> Actually I started with this as a joke. Meaning a coin which will be RayTraced since it's digital.  Now that you have mentioned it, does the RTXs' have better scaling in mining than GTX cards? I didn't look to this to be honest and I'm not sure. From what you're saying it should be better with tensor cores.



About same, tweaked 1080 Ti (there is special registry hack for that) does around 50 Mh/sec in ethash, RTX 2080 Ti does 50 too.

Now question is if same Red Pill hack could be used on RTX or not. Kinda depends if GDDR6 has optimised internal latency settings or not (thats whole thing of that "hack" for 1080 Ti).

RX 64 does around 45 Mh/sec.

And RVII does.. 90 Mh/sec, so if you want to mine and dont mind noise (nobody who mines does) then RVII is best option by far. Its so efficient that if you get electricity price under 0.15 cent for KWh, you actually gain tiny bit of USD every month by mining.  Ofc, its absolutely pointless since gain is so small that its just not worth it.

As far as I know, tensor cores mining doesnt work ATM.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2019)

Crypto bear market threatens to last as potential token supply weighs


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2019)

Mescalamba said:


> special registry hack



Maybe borderline excessively specific, but it wasn't a registry hack but a closed source program that ran in the background and did god knows what.

I know because I tried to reverse engineer it and only found really strange code.  It had something to do with memory timings though.


----------



## hat (Feb 9, 2019)

Why are we even talking about Radeon VII hashrate? My two 1070s right now get around 60. If Radeon VII gets 90, in the current market, you get what, a dollar per day? Congrats! I don't see anyone gobbling these things up to do mining when you got over 2 years ROI in a pathetic market. Not to mention, there seems very few to go around, anyway...

I'm still mining because the electricity doesn't bother me and I already have my hardware... hoping for BTC to go up at some point in the future. I wouldn't be adding more hardware...


----------



## Mescalamba (Feb 9, 2019)

hat said:


> Why are we even talking about Radeon VII hashrate? My two 1070s right now get around 60. If Radeon VII gets 90, in the current market, you get what, a dollar per day? Congrats! I don't see anyone gobbling these things up to do mining when you got over 2 years ROI in a pathetic market. Not to mention, there seems very few to go around, anyway...
> 
> I'm still mining because the electricity doesn't bother me and I already have my hardware... hoping for BTC to go up at some point in the future. I wouldn't be adding more hardware...



Probably cause its only card that can do it atm and you can buy it with reasonable amount of money.

Also its one of saving graces of RVII.


----------



## ratirt (Feb 11, 2019)

Mescalamba said:


> About same, tweaked 1080 Ti (there is special registry hack for that) does around 50 Mh/sec in ethash, RTX 2080 Ti does 50 too.
> 
> Now question is if same Red Pill hack could be used on RTX or not. Kinda depends if GDDR6 has optimised internal latency settings or not (thats whole thing of that "hack" for 1080 Ti).
> 
> ...


I could mine but I'm really not interested in this. Although it's good to know stuff out this. 90Mh/sec for RVII. That's impressive. 
It might be that the tensor cores wont be utilized for mining ever.


----------



## CheapMeat (Feb 11, 2019)

Anyone else been mining lately just to warm up their room? :O


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 19, 2019)

CheapMeat said:


> Anyone else been mining lately just to warm up their room? :O



Nah, my hearts just not in it like it used to be...  not until I design a coin I like.  And that'll probably never happen because lazy.

I did move my plasma screen back into the family room for heat though.  God that thing is a furnace.


----------



## hat (Feb 19, 2019)

CheapMeat said:


> Anyone else been mining lately just to warm up their room? :O


I've never stopped mining since I got my cards... but it does have the benefit of kicking some heat out to keep the room warm.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 19, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> a coin I like


 
RTB coin?


----------



## hat (Feb 19, 2019)

FroggyCoin?


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 19, 2019)

lol no, as much as I would love to do something with frogs, I'd hope to make it distinct in more ways than just name.

One of my ideas was to make a proof of time based coin that issues itself, to tie into universal income which ma happen someday when our dear robots do everything for us.  However, that's such a pipe dream right now I can't even fathom it.  Plus I haven't conquered proof of identity/individuality yet.


----------



## hat (Feb 19, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> to tie into universal income which ma happen someday when our dear robots do everything for us.



I don't think it's going to work like that...


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 20, 2019)

hat said:


> I don't think it's going to work like that...



Not with that attitude.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 20, 2019)

hat said:


> FroggyCoin?



Kermitcoin has a nice ring to it ; )


----------



## dorsetknob (Feb 23, 2019)

Faulkner said:


> Which cryptocurrency is safe right now to invest?


No cryptocurrency is inherently safe as a investment

they are all a speculative investment.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Feb 23, 2019)

Faulkner said:


> Which cryptocurrency is safe right now to invest? I have been following during a few weeks. But still searching for a good one.



The entire crypto market just follows Bitcoin itself, make of that what you will.

Next Bitcoin block halving just a bit over 1 year away.  Should get interesting then when Bitcoin block creation finally falls below reported USD inflation.


----------



## notb (Feb 23, 2019)

Faulkner said:


> Which cryptocurrency is safe right now to invest? I have been following during a few weeks. But still searching for a good one.


Since you live in Bangladesh, why not simply put that money on a bank deposit? How much will you get? 8% yearly?
In many developed countries people would be happy earning so much on stock market.

Cryptocurrencies have almost no value. The stock price is artificial. It can move up or down without any reason. If you want to bet on it, fine.
But if you're into sport betting, it should be more profitable.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 23, 2019)

notb said:


> Cryptocurrencies have almost no value.



The value is in the network of vendors that trade it.  Which is admitedly, very thin and only getting thinner right now.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 23, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> The value is in the network of vendors that trade it.  Which is admitedly, very thin and only getting thinner right now.



Yet in the last 7 days big names have said they still think Bitcoin is the future.

Elon Musk said a few days ago Bitcoin is amazing and the future.
CEO of Twitter on Joe Rogan's podcast said he has a lot of Bitcoin and thinks its still the future.
Earlier today the VP of IBM stated Bitcoin is still the future, and he expects it to hit 1 million per coin someday still.


That being said, I think it's all talk, but humans are very irrational... so if it ever starts to rise again fast, it is very possible many people might try to hit the bandwagon same as last time, except this time it will be more well known so that means more people... I am considering buying 1 coin just for giggles, but I don't know yet. That is a lot of money to get burned on if it is a bad bet. lol  (even just 1 coin at 5 grand I mean, that is a lot of money to me)


----------



## notb (Feb 23, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> The value is in the network of vendors that trade it.  Which is admitedly, very thin and only getting thinner right now.


1) The value may be based on BTC being a payment method. As you said, the group of accepting parties is small and shrinking.
Also, it has to be said that Bitcoin's value is coming from how much it is faster and cheaper than other methods. These methods are improving over time. Bitcoin isn't.
I assume we all understand that if traditional transfers were to catch up - for example simply because they're also based on a distributed ledger (-> J.P. Morgan), value of Bitcoin would be near zero.
2) I said "may be based" earlier, because we don't really know how to value this. I'd assume there have been thousands of attempts all over the world. I've read 3 large publications lately just from this year PhD candidates from my university. It's all theoretical however. We don't even know whether the actual value is lower or higher than current BTC price - let alone by how much.


lynx29 said:


> Yet in the last 7 days big names have said they still think Bitcoin is the future.
> 
> Elon Musk said a few days ago Bitcoin is amazing and the future.
> CEO of Twitter on Joe Rogan's podcast said he has a lot of Bitcoin and thinks its still the future.
> Earlier today the VP of IBM stated Bitcoin is still the future, and he expects it to hit 1 million per coin someday still.


I'd say that Bitcoin (blockchain in general) has been such a hot topic for the last 2 years, that at any given moment in that period you could find 3 important tech managers that said something similar during the previous week.
Also, Elon Musk says whatever he wants to say. The guy doesn't even understand the responsibility he has when talking about companies he owns. Citing him seems pointless.
The anonymous "VP of IBM" you've mentioned is Lund, their Head of Blockchain. I'd assume he is simply fascinated by this subject, so I'm not surprised by his hopes. It's also in his interest to talk about it.
I have such a limited interest in Twitter, that I haven't known who the CEO is until now. I don't know this guy. But he'd be better of focusing on his company's financials.

I think it's worth to notice that all of them are in the tech sector. And we know many tech companies see blockchain as a great new product they could sell. The question is: who will they sell it to? The interest from outside of the tech sector is really slim.
If you've given me 3 names of managers from lets say: General Motors, Tesco and Airbus - talking about Bitcoin, that would be quite amazing.

But this is really funny to watch. Someone important says Bitcoin is the future and the whole crypto community gets a huge orgasm (yes, I've noticed the headlines). Like if this was the first time they've heard it.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 23, 2019)

Well said @notb 

I never thought of it from that perspective, you are indeed making a lot of sense. I don't have enough savings to be wasting it on crypto, if I had more money to play with I might roll the dice, but I prefer to keep it nice and safe in the bank and just be careful with what I spend my money on, life is much easier that way I am learning, greed has destroyed a lot of my friends over the years, that dopamine release of the next thrill.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 23, 2019)

notb said:


> Bitcoin isn't.



https://lightning.network/


----------



## hat (Feb 23, 2019)

BTC seems to have been steadily rising the past few days... slowly, but it's going up. This is a good sign (for me). I haven't withdrew shit since around this time last year, and I've been mining the whole time the market has been in the gutter. It's not a whole lot, but I do have about .086 BTC right now. Now, if it hits 20k again, that's quite a gain...


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 24, 2019)

What do you guys think of TRON coin? gimmick or no? It's ranked number 9 of all the coins. I don't know, seems like there could be a rally around it, seems legit from everything I am reading, much faster than BTC and ETH


----------



## notb (Feb 24, 2019)

Outback Bronze said:


> https://lightning.network/


I meant the technological aspect. Bitcoin won't be faster than it is now.
Also, the company behind the link is just another "payment of the future" gimmick. I think we should be already getting "payment of today" stuff.
After so many years of BTC existence and 2-3 years of absolute crypto fever, I'd expect BTC to be at least accepted in most online *tech* stores. And it isn't. Just a few global brands tried their luck (possibly hoping to gather BTC and earn later on).

How far are we from a situation where I could pay with BTC in a restaurant or a nearby grocery store?
At the peak of BTC popularity 1-2 years ago, I may have risked "5-10 years". It was a popular topic: we had crypto startups, companies were looking for a way to accept BTC as a payment method.
Today "infinity" seems the most probable answer. Distributed ledger is here to stay for sure, but public cryptocurrencies vanished from long term plans and corporate meeting. No one cares.


lynx29 said:


> What do you guys think of TRON coin? gimmick or no? It's ranked number 9 of all the coins. I don't know, seems like there could be a rally around it, seems legit from everything I am reading, much faster than BTC and ETH


You can expect any of the smaller cryptos to get a temporary bubble. If you're interested in earning this way, buy many.
Cryptos initially are marginally higher than 0 (at least the decimal precision).
XRP/USD was around 0.005 4 years ago.
Then it went to 0.2-0.3 when crypto bubble started in 2017.
It rallied to 1-3 at the peak of bubble in 2018.
And even today, with crypto bubble over, it's still 0.3.

So based just on XRP example you could have made a 60x return just because this crypto went from unknown to popular. And the bubble made it a 400x return investment.

In other words: if you believe cryptos are here to stay, you can diversify and simply buy many cryptos before they gain any traction. You'll earn a lot on those that will become mainstream and lose almost nothing on those that don't.

I wouldn't count on another bubble like the one we've seen a year ago, but who knows? There are enough stupid people on Earth.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 24, 2019)

notb said:


> I meant the technological aspect. Bitcoin won't be faster than it is now.
> Also, the company behind the link is just another "payment of the future" gimmick. I think we should be already getting "payment of today" stuff.
> After so many years of BTC existence and 2-3 years of absolute crypto fever, I'd expect BTC to be at least accepted in most online *tech* stores. And it isn't. Just a few global brands tried their luck (possibly hoping to gather BTC and earn later on).
> 
> ...


JP Morgan is stupid then? Mmm

As I said , corporate coins are arriving , money's on the rope's, it will kick in eventually.


----------



## notb (Feb 24, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> JP Morgan is stupid then? Mmm


Do you actually understand what J.P. Morgan is doing? And I really mean understanding.
The fact that you see things falling down doesn't mean you understand gravity.


> As I said , corporate coins are arriving , money's on the rope's, it will kick in eventually.


Corporate technologies based on blockchain, not coins. And they're here already.
You can't invest in them, you can't mine them. It's just an alternative transaction database technology.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 24, 2019)

notb said:


> Do you actually understand what J.P. Morgan is doing? And I really mean understanding.
> The fact that you see things falling down doesn't mean you understand gravity.
> 
> Corporate technologies based on blockchain, not coins. And they're here already.
> You can't invest in them, you can't mine them. It's just an alternative transaction database technology.


Like PayPal, I know, and I said it would be as it is, a visa alternative that only makes the big guy's money but it's not cash and it's not going away this crypto derived capital.
You think you are the only one who can read, arrogance tut.


----------



## damian246 (Feb 25, 2019)

Crypto in the end is all about FIAT, most Altcoin Founders ulterior motif is around that in the end. 

Sadly though.


----------



## chicobonito12 (Feb 26, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> much faster than BTC and ETH


Faster but with less developed infrastructure. It will take time until it will have the same range of useful tools as its bigger counterparts. Ethereum alone has a million scanners (etherscan, ehtplorer, cryptohound etc.). Tron is still on the way to having all that.


----------



## notb (Feb 27, 2019)

chicobonito12 said:


> Faster but with less developed infrastructure. It will take time until it will have the same range of useful tools as its bigger counterparts. Ethereum alone has a million scanners (etherscan, ehtplorer, cryptohound etc.). Tron is still on the way to having all that.


Seriously, who cares about these things? Cryptocurrencies need more real life use, not more tools for playing around with themselves.
It life if we had a new video format that no one uses, but we're happy because of all the great editing tools we can make...

And yeah, as far as transaction confirmation goes, a "new" crypto will be faster than one with longer history. It's built into the concept.

The other way to make a blockchain faster is just to make the algorithm simpler, which wouldn't really add "value" to public coins... But this is what private blockchains can benefit from.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 27, 2019)

notb said:


> Cryptocurrencies need more real life use



Its still a nascent technology.

I was reading that the first credit card was from 1950. Look at how long that took to adapt.

A little something for ya : ) https://medium.com/swlh/advantages-of-bitcoin-payments-fdc92a01e5ca

Im guessing you will refute..


----------



## damian246 (Mar 2, 2019)

Outback Bronze said:


> Its still a nascent technology.
> 
> I was reading that the first credit card was from 1950. Look at how long that took to adapt.
> 
> ...




Well I'm pretty pro Crypto 


*CHEAP*: average price of transactions is just 10–20 cents. Even if you send 1 million. *Not if using Online wallets*
*FAST*: Transactions get registered in blockchain usually within half an hour, or if you integrate your system with specific wallet provider or use Lightning Network then it will take few seconds. *Can take up to 48 hours to pass on BTC*
*EASY*: There’s no bureaucracy, you can start accepting Bitcoin payments right away and set up everything in 1 hour. *Still my mom can't use it, way too nerdy*
And the most importantly: It’s *DECENTRALIZED*. Everyone from any part of the world can send money to anyone they want. No one can come in between and stop them. *Who cares??*
So it is made like any marketing, hypy


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 2, 2019)

Still don't get why people call decentralized as an advantage for cryptocurrencies.  Most popular cryptocurrencies use proof of work model which is horribly inefficient.  Centralization reduces the inefficiency to a relatively tiny amount and it's employing a lot of people on the way.  Centralization also leads to relative stability which is critical to currencies that are economically necessary.

A centralized digital currency makes a lot more sense to me.  Much more efficient, damn near instant, almost free, and easy because it would tie in directly to existing bank/credit union accounts.  I think the only reason why it hasn't happened because governments would have to order it to happen.  It's not something the Fed (for example) can just decide to do on its own.


----------



## damian246 (Mar 2, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Still don't get why people call decentralized as an advantage for cryptocurrencies.  Most popular cryptocurrencies use proof of work model which is horribly inefficient.  Centralization reduces the inefficiency to a relatively tiny amount and it's employing a lot of people on the way.  Centralization also leads to relative stability which is critical to currencies that are economically necessary.



That is an easy one: *Paranoia *


----------



## hat (Mar 19, 2019)

Because it's "money" that's "ours" and not "theirs". Even if it sucks, at least the governments of the world aren't controlling it. At least, not as much as official money.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 2, 2019)

Here comes another round of manipulation...
Bitcoin jumps 20 percent, mystery order seen as catalyst


> Today’s gain was probably triggered by an order worth about $100 million spread across U.S.-based exchanges Coinbase and Kraken and Luxembourg’s Bitstamp, said Oliver von Landsberg-Sadie, chief executive of cryptocurrency firm BCB Group.
> 
> “There has been a single order that has been algorithmically-managed across these three venues, of around 20,000 BTC,” he said.


Price surged from $4200 to $4838 in less than an hour.  The market cap at the time it occurred was approximately $74.25 billion.
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#charts

$0.1 billion came in, 6 million trades occurred, and the market cap surged to $85.25 billion.  Then immediately thereafter the manipulators likely cashed out causing the market to sag to $82 billion while they pocketed about $13.4 million in profit.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 5, 2019)

who knows but its showing signs of life.. i recon factoring in the cost of building a mining machine and chasing the price too high i am about 7 K down on my crypto activities.. 

trog


----------



## hat (Apr 6, 2019)

I haven't bought shit since I got my 1070s almost 2 years ago. I've withdrawn a lot of BTC since then, but I've been piling it up since sometime in Feburary last year. As of now, with this current increase in BTC price, I have about $500 worth of the stuff (nearly .1BTC).

Now, I can make more than that in one month by taking extra days at work. And if I keep it up all year, I can certainly make way more. But it's nice to have something going on the side like this. Of course, the eternal question is whether it will rise or fall. What if I withdraw it now and it's worth $6k tomorrow? What if I hold on to it and it falls to $2k?


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 6, 2019)

hat said:


> What if I withdraw it now and it's worth $6k tomorrow? What if I hold on to it and it falls to $2k?



If you are banking your future on crypto, you have made some poor choices which I am pretty sure doesn't apply to you.  In either case, hold on it and see if foo...people make the same mistakes again.


----------



## hat (Apr 7, 2019)

Yeah, I'm kind of waiting for the next big boom, if there is going to be one. But it's just play money at this point.


----------



## TheMadDutchDude (Apr 7, 2019)

I’ve got to find my Nano. It’s around here somewhere. Time to start making some money!


----------



## hat (Apr 7, 2019)

I'm getting $1.33/day right now with two 1070s mining... GrinCuckaroo29. No idea what exactly that is...


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 7, 2019)

Assuming those GPUs are using 200w (low balling it), 24/7, that comes to 4.8 kwh.  As long as you're paying $0.277 or less per kwh and the hardware is paid for, you're making money.

If it's closer to 300w (high balling it), 7.2 kwh, $0.185.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 7, 2019)

my 8 x 1070 card miner has been switched off for months now.. i havnt the heart to rip it down and flog the bits.. he he

litecoin is up 60% over the last month which is looking promising for me..

cardano is up over 100%.. i have a 1035 of those.. trouble is its worth f-ck all in the first place.. 

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 7, 2019)

hat said:


> I'm getting $1.33/day right now with two 1070s mining... GrinCuckaroo29. No idea what exactly that is...



Really?  I may have to throw a miner up.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

damian246 said:


> Can take up to 48 hours to pass on BTC



Must be using a horrible online wallet, me thinks.  I can withdraw to fiat faster than 48 hours.  Seldom see bitcoin to bitcoin with proper fees in over 2 hours.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Still don't get why people call decentralized as an advantage for cryptocurrencies.



I don't know, might have something to do with points of failure...  lol


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know, might have something to do with points of failure...  lol


Fair point in countries with weak/poor central banking.  At the same time, I don't know that internet service is even reliable enough in those very same countries to make cryptocurrencies viable.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Fair point in countries with weak/poor central banking.



With modern information breaches targeting banks and credit agencies, it's a fair point anywhere.

Granted, that's more a property of anonyminity than central vs distributed.  More on the original point, I'd argue just because central banking hasn't had a catastrophic failure in the west does not mean it can't, nor does it make centralization a security benefit.  Centralization is never a security benefit.



FordGT90Concept said:


> At the same time, I don't know that internet service is even reliable enough in those very same countries to make cryptocurrencies viable.



You don't need incredible internet service.  Thank TCPIP for that one.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Granted, that's more a property of anonyminity than central vs distributed.  More on the original point, I'd argue just because central banking hasn't had a catastrophic failure in the west does not mean it can't, nor does it make centralization a security benefit.  Centralization is never a security benefit.


I'd argue it does.  Why has federalization won out every time?  Everyone in a shared economy needs to be on the same page.  When banking isn't centralized, multiple bank systems and currencies emerge.  Commerce becomes difficult.  The argument for federalization explodes for the sake of streamlining commerce, so it happens...pretty much everywhere...pretty much all of the time.



R-T-B said:


> You don't need incredible internet service.  Thank TCPIP for that one.


I would thank telcomms rolling out internet over cellphone services pretty much everywhere for that, not TCP/IP.  Even Haiti has surprisingly good wireless internet because relief workers needed it.  Still, I wouldn't call it reliable.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'd argue it does.



The key word is "security benefit."  It's a well known principal in security that decentralization is ALWAYS better.  Politics need not apply here.  You may as well be arguing with newtons laws.



FordGT90Concept said:


> I would thank telcomms rolling out internet over cellphone services pretty much everywhere for that, not TCP/IP.



Heh.  Try using cell service without a guaranteed delivery protocol like TCP/IP.  Watch the network burn.

The whole point of TCP/IP is to make unreliable networks work reliably.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> The key word is "security benefit."  It's a well known principal in security that decentralization is ALWAYS better.  Politics need not apply here.  You may as well be arguing with newtons laws.


Depends on intent.  If you're trying to hide something, decentralization is better.  If you're trying to prevent against attack, intrusion, and theft, centralized is better because it's easier to make redundant and secure.  This is why all of the gold, for example, was stored in the middle of an Army base.  Nothing short of a superior army could get anywhere close to it.  Likewise, centralized servers can turn any attack into a counter attack using their collective power.  Trust is implied in centralized servers rather than created.



R-T-B said:


> Heh.  Try using cell service without a guaranteed delivery protocol like TCP/IP.  Watch the network burn.
> 
> The whole point of TCP/IP is to make unreliable networks work reliably.


TCP/IP is a packet type that requests acknowledgement that packets were received.  If there's a break in the network that prohibits any traffic from getting through, TCP/IP is as useful as having a fist full of sand in the middle of a desert.  I'm talking about #1 (Physical Layer) of OSI Model, you're talking about #4 (Transport Layer).


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> This is why all of the gold, for example, was stored in the middle of an Army base. Nothing short of a superior army could get anywhere close to it.



Not really.  It was stored there so they could sell it all off with the general public knowing.  Hence why we don't have public audits.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If you're trying to prevent against attack, intrusion, and theft, centralized is better because it's easier to make redundant and secure.



No, it's not.  The whole idea of centralized is...  centralized.  Not redundant.  Redundant implies multiple nodes.  That is the opposite of centralized.

Perhaps you are thinking peer-to-peer but that is but one form of decentralization.



FordGT90Concept said:


> If you're trying to hide something, decentralization is better.



Again, not really.  It actually makes more copies of it and in many ways is worse.



FordGT90Concept said:


> TCP/IP is a packet type that requests acknowledgement that packets were received. If there's a break in the network that prohibits any traffic from getting through, TCP/IP is as useful as having a fist full of sand in the middle of a desert.



Not if there's another path that routers open, making the break temporary.  TCP/IP depends on other techs but the point it it laid the foundation by making temporary blips in connectivity all but irrelelevant.  It's all offtopic anyways, but I can state as a Cisco Certified Network Associate (for reasons I don't even fully understand, I never user that cert) I do know what I am talking about.  Most issues in foreign countries where business would be transacted (markets) relate to cell connectivity and switching towers when one fails.  That's firmly in the domain of TCP/IP.



moproblems99 said:


> Not really.  It was stored there so they could sell it all off with the general public knowing.  Hence why we don't have public audits.



Heh, wasn't even going to go there but it's possible is all I'll say.  If it wasn't they'd probably be more than open to an audit by now.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> No, it's not.  The whole idea of centralized is...  centralized.  Not redundant.  Redundant implies multiple nodes.  That is the opposite of centralized.
> 
> Perhaps you are thinking peer-to-peer but that is but one form of decentralization.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/centralize


> to concentrate by placing power and authority in a center or central organization


Federal government is centralized in terms of financial consolidation, yet it has many nodes.  For example, the 12 Federal Reserve Banks.  Even though it's not physical in one place, it's still centralized because all money in the country eventually flows through one of its many nodes.

Decentralization is like pre-civil war era banking.  Every state had its own currency and bank and there were exchange rates between each.  No one had authority over it all until the Federal Reserve was created.

"Authority" is the key, not physical location.

Example: just because Amazon Web Services has clusters of servers all over the world, they are still centralized because Amazon controls them all.  When you're talking to that service, you're only dealing with one entity (Amazon).  What physical resource actually responds to the request is implementation details.



R-T-B said:


> Again, not really.  It actually makes more copies of it and in many ways is worse.


Yet, all transactions are anonymous because there's nothing tying an account to a human being.  In order to trace an account back to a human, there has to be a study of the patterns as well subpoenas of merchants that interacted with the account.  In centralized banking, there's so many anti-fraud measures in place that are completely non-existent in decentralized because of lack of authority to do so.



R-T-B said:


> Not if there's another path that routers open, making the break temporary.  TCP/IP depends on other techs but the point it it laid the foundation by making temporary blips in connectivity all but irrelelevant.  It's all offtopic anyways, but I can state as a Cisco Certified Network Associate (for reasons I don't even fully understand, I never user that cert) I do know what I am talking about.  Most issues in foreign countries where business would be transacted (markets) relate to cell connectivity and switching towers when one fails.  That's firmly in the domain of TCP/IP.


Wow, guess CCNA certification these days are worthless.  If layer 1, 2, and 3 aren't functioning, layer 4 doesn't exist.  You can keep trying and trying and trying and all you'll get is timeouts.  Cryptocurrencies are worthless without functioning internet infrastructure.


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 8, 2019)

Health Issues worrying about Cryptocurrency worth eh!!!

*Care home chain launches own cryptocurrency *
A UK care home company has created a private exchange token for residents.

The C-Coin from Carlauren Group, which provides residential later-life and care services, is designed to remove the worry associated with carrying cash.

Residents can buy a minimum of 100 C-Coins at a rate of £70 each. At any point in time, it is possible to sell the C-Coin back to Carlauren in return for 90% of its launch value in fiat currency.

The minimum buy-in increases with each tier to a maximum initial commitment of 500 coins.

Using the Carlauren Exchange facility on-site, members investing in C-Coins will be able to buy, sell, and trade them easily and securely without taking significant investment risks.

Full Story here ( sub titles and Audio Description for those that are Deaf and Blind  not available   )
https://coinrivet.com/care-home-chain-launches-own-cryptocurrency/


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Why has federalization won out every time?



You can paint up the pig all you like, but the only REAL reason why, is because they have the guns and the armies to enforce it. If something is actually superior, then there is no need to suppress competition with force.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

EU doesn't have "the guns and the armies to enforce it" yet they still federalized their currencies under the Euro Dollar.  Exchanging currencies sucks so as long as economies get along with each other, there's a whole lot of benefits to centralization of currencies and not many disadvantages.

Competition means going away from centralization which means exchanges again.  It's a PITA on daily basis, so back to back to centralization it goes.

The reason why there isn't a single global currency is because of trust.  For example, no one really trusts North Korea.  Until the political situation in North Korea changes, they will be economically isolated by way of independent currency.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> EU doesn't have "the guns and the armies to enforce it" yet they still federalized their currencies under the Euro Dollar.  Exchanging currencies sucks so as long as economies get along with each other, there's a whole lot of benefits to centralization of currencies and not many disadvantages.
> 
> Competition means going away from centralization which means exchanges again.  It's a PITA on daily basis, so back to back to centralization it goes.
> 
> The reason why there isn't a single global currency is because of trust.  For example, no one really trusts North Korea.  Until the political situation in North Korea changes, they will be economically isolated by way of independent currency.



International currencies is not my point. The EU does have the guns and armies to enforce it, when compared to the individual.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 8, 2019)

Ford I am speaking from a security definition perspective and always have prefaced it with that.  You are going to have to accept that within that context I am correct.  You can of course quote a general purpose dictionary and claim to win, but you are changing the debate context and that's called "moving the goalposts."




FordGT90Concept said:


> Wow, guess CCNA certification these days are worthless.



No (well, actually, sorta, but separate issue), but your debate and reading skills here are.  I specifically stated we are talking about unreliable switchable routed networks, not completely nonfunctioning ones.  Read my post again.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> International currencies is not my point. The EU does have the guns and armies to enforce it, when compared to the individual.


It does not.  They're just now trying to create the framework for an EU military.  UK (and I think one other member) prohibited it.  Now with Brexit, EU can likely get the votes to do it.

The EU has had the Euro for decades now (1999, started physical currency in 2002) with no "guns and armies."



R-T-B said:


> Ford I am speaking from a security definition perspective and always have prefaced it with that.  You are going to have to accept that within that context I am correct.  You can of course quote a general purpose dictionary and claim to win, but you are changing the debate context and that's called "moving the goalposts."


Look at all high security applications around the world and note what they have in common: restricted access.  Centralization does that in very forceful ways, decentralized can't.  There's really no context in which decentralized is more secure than an adequately designed centralized system.

The only benefit decentralized has is burden sharing.  The cost of establishing trust, however, means much of the burden is wasted on merely establishing trust.  Unless a mechanism is created to rectify that problem, decentralization has no practical benefit when looking at the whole.



R-T-B said:


> No (well, actually, sorta, but separate issue), but your debate and reading skills here are.  I specifically stated we are talking about unreliable switchable routed networks, not completely nonfunctioning ones.  Read my post again.


You were replying to this:


FordGT90Concept said:


> At the same time, I don't know that internet service is even reliable enough in those very same countries to make cryptocurrencies viable.


I clarified that "reliability" isn't merely occasional "packet loss," it's simply no service, period.  Even in the USA, especially in the mountainous (parts of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, etc.), internet service is spotty at best if not completely unavailable save for ridiculously expensive satellite services.  Cryptocurrencies are useless in these parts of the world.  They have no problem doing business in currencies though.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You were replying to this:



Yes and your clarification is invalid because people tend to do a lot of business in market style stalls in such countries...  usually with cell service.

Again, I stated this in my post.



FordGT90Concept said:


> There's really no context in which decentralized is more secure than an adequately designed centralized system.



Except...  points of failure.

Oh man, talking in circles again.   I'm out.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It does not.  They're just now trying to create the framework for an EU military.  UK (and I think one other member) prohibited it.  Now with Brexit, EU can likely get the votes to do it.
> 
> The EU has had the Euro for decades now (1999, started physical currency in 2002) with no "guns and armies."



Ignore the guns and armies (including police) of the constituent countries, sure. The definition of missing the point.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Yes and your clarification is invalid because people tend to do a lot of business in market style stalls in such countries...  usually with cell service.


Don't get out much do you?  There's gapping holes of coverage in the USA.  Take, for example, AT&T:
https://www.att.com/maps/wireless-coverage.html

That giant hole in Montana has ranches.  The only way they communicate with the outside world is via satellite phones.



R-T-B said:


> Except...  points of failure.


Which is why centralized systems have redundancies.  For example, if there's a catastrophic failure at one of the Federal Reserve banks, the other 11 can pick up the slack.  Commerce doesn't stop, just slows.



Papahyooie said:


> Ignore the guns and armies (including police) of the constituent countries, sure. The definition of missing the point.


And you're missing the point that exchanges impede economic activity so it is mutually beneficial to unify as long as the consenting parties can agree on a framework to do so.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> And you're missing the point that exchanges impede economic activity so it is mutually beneficial to unify as long as the consenting parties can agree on a framework to do so.



I didn't miss any point. Your point is just trash. While it may be "mutually beneficial to unify", that does not imply a license to use threat of violence to force compliance. You talk of "consenting parties" yet advocate for government control, which is the antithesis of consent. As I said before, if something is truly superior then there is no need to use force. And yet you continue to advocate that government should control crypto. Why can't you have your centralized currency, and I have my decentralized currency, and we all leave each other alone? I'd suspect it has something to do with the inability of your masters to profit off it. And as I said... they have the guns and armies.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> While it may be "mutually beneficial to unify", that does not imply a license to use threat of violence to force compliance.


US dollar federalized without "threats."  So did the Euro.

Governments control currencies because the people impower them to.  Again, mutually beneficial.  People need to trade goods as a function of life and having a currency to balance the debt makes settling debts simple.  All merchants and employers agree to use the dollar as a means of settling debts, courts uphold payment in dollars as adequate settlement of debts, Federal Reserve manages supply of the currency, and the Secret Service secures the currency against fraud.  Everybody is happy.  Commerce flows.



Papahyooie said:


> Why can't you have your centralized currency, and I have my decentralized currency, and we all leave each other alone?


Because of the same reason why multiple centralized currencies pose a problem: exchange is sticking point.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> US dollar federalized without "threats."  So did the Euro.



Except they didn't. I'd say being imprisoned, or killed in the event you protest being imprisoned, is a pretty big threat.

Edit: All the rest of your edited post is just restating what you've already said: Basically, that you have the right to force me to comply. Which, as I said, is trash.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

Enjoy some light reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Enjoy some light reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act



So.... the Federal Reserve Act.... literally creating a law threatening the use of force against people like me. 

How could you think such a thing is even a response to what I'm saying? Thank you for proving my point, I guess?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

Are you a manager of a bank?  If no, it didn't require anything of you.  Clearly you didn't read it.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> So.... the Federal Reserve Act.... literally creating a law threatening the use of force against people like me.
> 
> How could you think such a thing is even a response to what I'm saying? Thank you for proving my point, I guess?



Let me preface this by saying I understand both of you and support neither.

Except in this case, you are indirectly consenting.  You vote for elected officials who go out and do your bidding (in a perfect world).  This is your implicit consent.

In the case you voted for someone that doesn't believe in the Federal Reserve, then, somewhat unfortunately, welcome to democracy/republic/whatever we really are.  The majority has determined what we are going to do as a whole and by you continuing to stay in the country, are consenting.

If you didn't vote, you can't complain.

By living in this country, you are implicitly agreeing to live by the rules and laws of the country.  You don't have to agree with them and you can work to change them (through peaceful protest and electing officials who share your view).


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Are you a manager of a bank?  If no, it didn't require anything of you.  Clearly you didn't read it.



Sure am. I am the manager of my own bank of crypto. Which you want to fall under Federal regulation.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

That's a wallet, not a bank.  4th amendment applies to wallets, even the digital kind.  That said, cryptocurrencies are securities and security exchanges (which are effectively crypto-banks) need to be regulated which SEC and other government security bodies are attempting to do.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Let me preface this by saying I understand both of you and support neither.
> 
> Except in this case, you are indirectly consenting.  You vote for elected officials who go out and do your bidding (in a perfect world).  This is your implicit consent.
> 
> ...



If you think such a thing as "indirectly consenting" is legitimate, then you do not understand consent. That is the same bullshit argument as "She shouldn't have dressed like that if she didn't want to get raped." Another person's actions (such as colonizing an arbitrary area of land and asserting control over all the people and property within it) can never create consent. 

@FordGT90Concept you're sidestepping the issue again. The minutia of the Federal Reserve Act, or any other law for that matter, is completely irrelevant to what I am saying. I am literally saying that whatever law you want to paste a link to, is illegitimate. It is only good so long as the people who instated it have the guns and armies and police to enforce it by threat of violence. Argue against that instead of misdirecting.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

The common law legal system (passed by Congress and upheld by courts) in the USA says it is legitimate so your premise is flawed.

As for changing, I think you'll find you have little support.  The system works much better than the patch work system before it and no better system has been proposed.  The USD is the most desirable currency in the world because of the Fed's even keel in terms of managing it.

Not even sure why we're discussing this.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> If you think such a thing as "indirectly consenting" is legitimate, then you do not understand consent. That is the same bullshit argument as "She shouldn't have dressed like that if she didn't want to get raped." Another person's actions (such as colonizing an arbitrary area of land and asserting control over all the people and property within it) can never create consent.



So you feel like you should be able to rape women (or men) and murder people just because you don't agree with the laws in place?  I think we could all agree you probably shouldn't do those things.  Those are both also laws of human and can be changed by humans.  Simply saying a law is invalid because you don't agree with it is not how humanity works.  Most of the modern world works because people understand they elect people to make policy decisions for them and understand they are supposed to follow those policies until they are changed.

Everyday you live in the US, you are consenting to following the laws and regulations in place whether you like them or not.  It is your job as a citizen to push for the laws and regulations you wish to live by.  What are you are describing is impossible to achieve to within any modern form of society: to only live by the rules that you feel like.  Modern humanity cannot sustain that.

Edit:

Keep in mind, I am not advocating that crypto should be banned or not banned.  You are going above and beyond your view of financial regulation and walking into the realm of principles of modern human civilation.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Don't get out much do you? There's gapping holes of coverage in the USA.



In cities?

Ford, just stop.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> In cities?
> 
> Ford, just stop.


Have the full quote with emphasis added:


FordGT90Concept said:


> Fair point in *countries* with weak/poor central banking.  At the same time, I don't know that internet service is even reliable enough in those very same *countries* to make cryptocurrencies viable.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Have the full quote with emphasis added:



And where is business done ford, particularly in impoverished nations?

Someday, maybe the train of thought will arrive and you'll comprehend why I keep dissmissing the countryside in impovershed nations as irrelevant from the moment you tried to go there.  But I'm not waiting anymore.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

This was appended to the bottom of the last post but since you went there anyway, I cut and paste it here because appropriate:

...if that wasn't clear enough, let's shift focus to what you're insisting on making the goal post: a city.  Why use a costly thing like Bitcoin over the legal tender in that very city which is the economic blood pumping through it keeping it alive?  If the legal tender doesn't flow, the city begins to die and suddenly you'll find yourself in a ghost town.  See Venezuela now: this is what happens to economies with mismanaged legal tender.

Imagine trying to live off of Bitcoin now.  You're life is dependent on the ebbs and flows of big monied crypto interests on the other side of the planet.  Take the jump of $600 a few days ago as an example: that jump effectively becomes a 20% tax on all of your expenses for no reason other than someone got greedy somewhere on the planet.  That's *exactly* what happened in Venezula recently.  That's *exactly* what happened in Zimbabwe years ago.  That's *exactly* what happened in Japan decades ago.  Bitcoin does it on a *very* frequent basis.  Decentralized currency won't work as a cornerstone of economies because authority must be centralized in order to control supply which, in turn, controls inflation.  Without good inflation control, you have a disaster like so many countries before demonstrated...

I was going to stipulate that cryptocurrencies look attractive to Venezuelans right now but then I remembered that they're suffering from widespread blackouts and there's still some foreign currencies (like US dollars) floating around that are highly sought after.  If all of the foreign currencies leave the country and power/internet infrastructure is restored, Venezulans might consider...

...nope, they can't afford to change their economy over to cryptocurrencies.  Merchants likely don't have the equipment to even charge a crypto-wallet, even if they did, they would have to find a way to convert it back into commodities to restock their store which is wishful thinking.  Even in the worst case scenario, cryptocurrencies are self defeating.  The economy would have to be crypto-based before the collapse...and then the cryptocurrency likely caused the collapse in the first place. It's hopeless. Circular logic that always ends in crap-tastic outcomes.


Remember, humans tried decentralized thousands of years ago where people traded sheep for the services of a doctor, for example.  It was a shitty a thing (literally), which lead to currencies, which lead to collapses of currencies, which lead to centralization.  We got where we are for a reason.  It wasn't by accident.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." --George Santayana


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The common law legal system (passed by Congress and upheld by courts) in the USA says it is legitimate so your premise is flawed.
> 
> As for changing, I think you'll find you have little support.  The system works much better than the patch work system before it and no better system has been proposed.  The USD is the most desirable currency in the world because of the Fed's even keel in terms of managing it.
> 
> Not even sure why we're discussing this.



My premise is flawed, and yet yours depends on the idea that the common law legal system is the arbiter? Hi, Pot. As for why we're discussing this, we're discussing it because you specifically want to take over and control my method of commerce. If YOU and others left people alone to do as they pleased, we wouldn't be discussing this, now would we? You're the aggressor here. Don't ask me why.



moproblems99 said:


> So you feel like you should be able to rape women (or men) and murder people just because you don't agree with the laws in place?  I think we could all agree you probably shouldn't do those things.  Those are both also laws of human and can be changed by humans.  Simply saying a law is invalid because you don't agree with it is not how humanity works.  Most of the modern world works because people understand they elect people to make policy decisions for them and understand they are supposed to follow those policies until they are changed.
> 
> Everyday you live in the US, you are consenting to following the laws and regulations in place whether you like them or not.  It is your job as a citizen to push for the laws and regulations you wish to live by.  What are you are describing is impossible to achieve to within any modern form of society: to only live by the rules that you feel like.  Modern humanity cannot sustain that.
> 
> ...



No, I don't feel that at all. That's not how consent works. Look up the non-aggression principle. It's based on the idea of self-ownership. I own myself, you own yourself. If I infringe upon your self ownership, or the extensions thereof, I have committed a crime. Applied to the current discussion, if I rape someone, I have infringed upon someone else's right of consent, and therefore committed a crime. And if you and a large group of people decide that you have the ability to regulate my consensual commerce with other people through what means we contract to choose (such as crypto) then you have committed a crime by infringing upon both contracted parties right to self-ownership (and right to contract, which is an extension of self-ownership.) See, I took no action toward your group of people. I have not tried to prevent you from using whatever currency you wished. You and your group did that. That makes you and your group the aggressor, regardless of where I happened to have been born.

(and keep in mind, I'm talking to Ford in this conversation, who has specifically advocated for all of the above. Heaven forbid I apply principles to my beliefs and actions...)


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> My premise is flawed, and yet yours depends on the idea that the common law legal system is the arbiter? Hi, Pot. As for why we're discussing this, we're discussing it because you specifically want to take over and control my method of commerce. If YOU and others left people alone to do as they pleased, we wouldn't be discussing this, now would we? You're the aggressor here. Don't ask me why.


Was I not clear enough?  I don't care what you do as long as you aren't running an exchange.  Even if you were, I'm only concerned if there's a trail of fraud leading to your exchange.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> My premise is flawed, and yet yours depends on the idea that the common law legal system is the arbiter? Hi, Pot. As for why we're discussing this, we're discussing it because you specifically want to take over and control my method of commerce. If YOU and others left people alone to do as they pleased, we wouldn't be discussing this, now would we? You're the aggressor here. Don't ask me why.



No I am not the aggressor.  In fact, I agree with you.  I don't care what anyone else does until it starts to me affect me.  You wanna trade crypto with someone, no problem.  You wanna smoke some weed in your basement, no problem.  You wanna come in my house and take my stuff so you can buy weed, we have a problem.

All I am trying to say is, the USA has a government, and laws.  By you living here, you consent to follow them or not - we'll touch on that in a minute.  US laws are not genders.  They aren't defined by what you feel like that day.

Everyone on Earth has the right to pursue happiness.  However, all land right now is controlled by some Country.  And to quote a great movie:  'Borders are real and the plants you brought over them are illegal.'

This gives every human three choices and each one comes with their own conveniences and problems:

You live in a country and follow the rules while you peacefully try to make change.
You move to a country that has laws that favor your views and continue with #1.
You choose to ignore laws and do what you want, when you want, and where you want.  The big drawback of this is that you will find yourself in trouble with whatever occupying force you decided to homestead with.  You expect conflict and problems in all of your dealings.

This has now completely left the topic of Crypto.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Was I not clear enough?  I don't care what you do as long as you aren't running an exchange.  Even if you were, I'm only concerned if there's a trail of fraud leading to your exchange.



Seeing as how you've never expressed such an opinion, but only the opinion that there should be regulation (above and beyond the "don't defraud people" which is a natural crime), I'd say no, you haven't been clear enough. If you only want to punish those who have defrauded people, then we agree. But that hasn't been your tune, ever, in any of these threads. 



moproblems99 said:


> No I am not the aggressor.  In fact, I agree with you.  I don't care what anyone else does until it starts to me affect me.  You wanna trade crypto with someone, no problem.  You wanna smoke some weed in your basement, no problem.  You wanna come in my house and take my stuff so you can buy weed, we have a problem.
> 
> All I am trying to say is, the USA has a government, and laws.  By you living here, you consent to follow them or not - we'll touch on that in a minute.  US laws are not genders.  They aren't defined by what you feel like that day.
> 
> ...



You're missing my point. "Borders are real and the plants you brought over them are illegal." Ok... let's go with that premise. It's a good analog for the crypto discussion. The point that you're missing is not whether it's illegal or not. Obviously that plant is, indeed, illegal. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that governments have no authority to make such a law unless I have harmed someone else with that plant. "That plant is illegal" is not an argument to that... it's an even more ridiculous version of circular reasoning, and it's failing to even comprehend the discussion. As you seem like a sufficiently smart person, I'm going to assume that's not the case, and I just haven't made myself clear enough.... So to put it shortly again, you have made no argument against what I've said, by asserting that it's illegal. We all know it's illegal. My point is that such a law is illegitimate from a standpoint of consent. There is no consent involved here. Sure, I can choose one of the three options you give me, but the point is that I have not consented to this list of options. We made no contract. We made no agreement. I never signed anything, verbally or with a pen. You are FORCING these options upon me. And if I don't agree with any of them, you'll give me imprisonment or death. You giving me choices does NOT equal me consenting. That's not how consent works. 

Picture this... we work together. One day, Bill walk in the office and says
"Hey Mo, a bunch of us at the office got together, and we're all gonna pitch in every Friday for Sushi and Mustard sandwiches. A majority agreed, so be sure to have your cut ready." 
You say
"I don't like sushi and mustard sandwiches, I'm out. I wasn't a part of this. I'm not going to stop you from getting them yourselves, but I don't want any part of it." 
Bill says,
"Nah we all voted. Since you work here, you have to pay up."
You say 
"I didn't vote"
Bill says
"Then you have no right to complain!"

Does that describe consent to you? If so, you don't understand consent, plain and simple. 

The bottom line is, the only reason the US government's authority over plants, or crypto, is legitimate is because of the threat of violence. Not based on principle. Your choice #3 illustrates that perfectly. You're proving my point with that one. #3 is literally a threat of violence, veiled as it may be. And if the alternative is violence, then there is not consent, ever. I understand that this is reality, and those are the choices that must be made. But to continue to *advocate* for such a violence-based system is, as I said earlier, trash. Then again, apparently many here enjoy the taste of boot leather.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> Seeing as how you've never expressed such an opinion, but only the opinion that there should be regulation (above and beyond the "don't defraud people" which is a natural crime), I'd say no, you haven't been clear enough. If you only want to punish those who have defrauded people, then we agree. But that hasn't been your tune, ever, in any of these threads.


Have I ever stated otherwise?


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Have I ever stated otherwise?



Yes, but I'm not about to scroll through the 3 or 4 different threads we've discussed this on and find quotes, so I guess you win.  I'll just leave it at that. If your only aim is to punish those who have defrauded others, then we agree. (Punishing free exercise of trade before having actually committed any fraud notwithstanding.)


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> The bottom line is, the only reason the US government's authority over plants, or crypto, is legitimate is because of the threat of violence. Not based on principle.



I really don't understand what you're getting at.  Are you expecting gifts of frankincense and myrrh when you break agreed upon rules?

Edit:  In addition, does a fine count as violence?  Not all conflicts end in death or imprisonment.

Edit 2:  After rereading, I think I understand now.  And we'll just have to agree to disagree that electing officials to create laws and regulations doesn't actually grant the elected officials the power to create laws and regulations.


----------



## trog100 (Apr 8, 2019)

when the coming social credit system arrives in the US i recon ford will score pretty high..

trog


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I really don't understand what you're getting at.  Are you expecting gifts of frankincense and myrrh when you when you break agreed upon rules?
> 
> Edit:  In addition, does a fine count as violence?  Not all conflicts end in death or imprisonment.



Agreed upon by whom? Not me, apparently. But this is just going to circle back to "But you live here! That means you consent!" And then I'll have to type all that again. And again. And again, as I've done several times in these crypto threads. "Agreed upon" relies upon the agreement of all parties involved. If I had at any point agreed to be bound by the will of the majority even if I didn't like it (as many people perfectly legitimately do, in both public and private groups) then I would have consented. But I didn't. The only thing that I agree upon is that I don't want you and your "majority" to kill me. So yea, I'll acquiesce. But as a person who is advocating for such a system, you are directly responsible for the violation of my consent. So don't be surprised that I'm a bit miffed when someone tries to tell me about consent while actively violating my own. 

Yes, a fine does count as violence. If I refuse to pay the fine based on the fact that the law is unjust and illegitimate in the first place, then you will attempt to imprison me. And if I resist that arrest, I will be killed. So yea. It is violence.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> Agreed upon by whom? Not me, apparently. But this is just going to circle back to "But you live here! That means you consent!" And then I'll have to type all that again. And again. And again, as I've done several times in these crypto threads. "Agreed upon" relies upon the agreement of all parties involved. If I had at any point agreed to be bound by the will of the majority even if I didn't like it (as many people perfectly legitimately do, in both public and private groups) then I would have consented. But I didn't. The only thing that I agree upon is that I don't want you and your "majority" to kill me. So yea, I'll acquiesce. But as a person who is advocating for such a system, you are directly responsible for the violation of my consent. So don't be surprised that I'm a bit miffed when someone tries to tell me about consent while actively violating my own.
> 
> Yes, a fine does count as violence. If I refuse to pay the fine based on the fact that the law is unjust and illegitimate in the first place, then you will attempt to imprison me. And if I resist that arrest, I will be killed. So yea. It is violence.



I reread your previous post and in my edit I said:

After rereading, I think I understand now. And we'll just have to agree to disagree that electing officials to create laws and regulations doesn't actually grant the elected officials the power to create laws and regulations.

Clearly there are quite a few philosophical differences about humanity and government so instead of going around in endless circles we are going to have to agree on what we agree on and agree to disagree to what we don't.

Edit: On a side note, did you give your parents your consent to be born or did they bear you without your consent?  Serious question.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2019)

trog100 said:


> when the coming social credit system arrives in the US i recon ford will score pretty high..
> 
> trog


"Social credit system?"


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I reread your previous post and in my edit I said:
> 
> After rereading, I think I understand now. And we'll just have to agree to disagree that electing officials to create laws and regulations doesn't actually grant the elected officials the power to create laws and regulations.
> 
> ...



Great idea, let's agree to disagree. Except your way by its nature forces me into your system, so "agree to disagree" automatically means you get your way. Convenient. See that's the problem with aggression: You can't just say "let's agree to disagree" while forcing me into the way you want it to be. Except you can, because your side has more guns and people. Also convenient. Also disingenuous as hell. You see, ALL I want in this world is for us to be able to agree to disagree, go our separate ways, and as long as we don't harm each other, live happily ever after. YOUR philosophy, on the other hand wants me to bend to your will, whether I've harmed you in any way or not. So don't bring that agree to disagree crap. If by "agree to disagree" you mean "stop talking about it because I refuse to entertain another viewpoint" then ok. Sure. You can stop. But that's pretty much a dog whistle for you telling me to stop talking talking about it. And I won't. You're free to leave any time you like. See how that works?

If you want to have a serious conversation about philosophy and the implications of consent on being born sure, we can talk about that. But I'd probably make another thread about it, as it deserves its own. If you only ask the question as a means toward a "Ha! Gotcha!"... then I'm not interested.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

wtf?


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> wtf?



I think it's pretty clear.


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 8, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> Great idea, let's agree to disagree. Except your way by its nature forces me into your system, so "agree to disagree" automatically means you get your way. Convenient. See that's the problem with aggression: You can't just say "let's agree to disagree" while forcing me into the way you want it to be. Except you can, because your side has more guns and people. Also convenient. Also disingenuous as hell. You see, ALL I want in this world is for us to be able to agree to disagree, go our separate ways, and as long as we don't harm each other, live happily ever after. YOUR philosophy, on the other hand wants me to bend to your will, whether I've harmed you in any way or not. So don't bring that agree to disagree crap. If by "agree to disagree" you mean "stop talking about it because I refuse to entertain another viewpoint" then ok. Sure. You can stop. But that's pretty much a dog whistle for you telling me to stop talking talking about it. And I won't. You're free to leave any time you like. See how that works?



Please point out in my post where I told you to stop talking about it? Or any post in this thread for that matter.

I also don't have a side.  I'm just here playing the game like everyone else.  Also, this is not my philosophy.  I am merely giving the reality and what you can do about it.  Our philosophies are not that far off from each other.

Take a chill pill.

I think this conversation went somewhere it didn't need.  You're free to respond but I wouldn't expect a response from me.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 9, 2019)

China wants to ban bitcoin mining


> The draft for a revised list added cryptocurrency mining, including that of bitcoin, to more than 450 activities the NDRC said should be phased out as they did not adhere to relevant laws and regulations, were unsafe, wasted resources or polluted the environment.
> 
> It did not stipulate a target date or plan for how to eliminate bitcoin mining, meaning that such activities should be phased out immediately, the document said. The public has until May 7 to comment on the draft.





> “Half of the network is probably located in China,” said Alex de Vries, a consultant with PwC in Amsterdam who specializes on blockchain and researches cryptocurrency mining. He added that the number of mining facilities in the world is still limited to several hundred.
> 
> Countries with relatively cheap electricity have emerged as major hosts of cryptocurrency mining. Mati Greenspan, an analyst with eToro in Israel, said any ban by China would cut a key supply of cheap electricity for the industry and raise the average cost to mine bitcoin.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 9, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Please point out in my post where I told you to stop talking about it? Or any post in this thread for that matter.
> 
> I also don't have a side.  I'm just here playing the game like everyone else.  Also, this is not my philosophy.  I am merely giving the reality and what you can do about it.  Our philosophies are not that far off from each other.
> 
> ...



A "dog whistle" is when you say something, but there is a hidden meaning or agenda. By saying we should "agree to disagree" you are essentially signaling that you no longer wish to talk to about it. Seeing as how this specific branch of the conversation began with your reply to me, you have joined into the conversation. So telling me to agree to disagree is a dog whistle for "shut up about it." You may not mean it that way, but it effectively is. Also, continually saying that this is off topic or "this conversation went somewhere it shouldn't".... More dog whistling. You're saying, without saying it explicitly , that I should stop talking.

Moreover, as I said, we cannot "agree to disagree" when your philosophy warrants that you should have dominion over me. Agree to disagree implies that we leave each other alone. But the collective (I won't use "you" anymore, because apparently you deny it) will continue to force their laws and regulation upon me, regardless of whether I've done anything to harm them. So there is no "agree to disagree" here. 

You say that it isn't your philosophy, but you said outright that we disagree on whether "electing officials to create laws and regulations doesn't actually grant the elected officials the power to create laws and regulations. " That's the philosophy. And yea sure, you're merely giving the reality on what you can do about it. I understand that. I understand that your three choices are, indeed, reality. That's not the point. The point is that by the very nature of those three choices, the collectivists are threatening violence as the alternative. That's my only point here... If you have to threaten violence to maintain your agenda, your authority is not legitimate.


----------



## silentbogo (Apr 10, 2019)

I'm gonna brighten up the mood here with some offtopic...
Went to my office this morning, decided to get coffee and something sweet on the way.


They taste good, but too little too late


----------



## trog100 (May 12, 2019)

bitcoin is now at $7143 dollars.. the whole lot is up.. 

another run coming maybe.. 

trog


----------



## TheMadDutchDude (May 12, 2019)

Please! I want my LTC to hit a high so I can get rid.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 12, 2019)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin is now at $7143 dollars.. the whole lot is up..
> 
> another run coming maybe..
> 
> trog


Probably...only to come crashing down again.

Until there is a mechanism to override manipulation, history will repeat.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 12, 2019)

Yeah bitcoin does what it wants, normally the first wave of sellers should already be coming out causing a retracement, but we will see how eager market will be to sell.  Up 75%+ since beginning of year ain't bad at all for 5 months and virtually no risk...


----------



## moproblems99 (May 12, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Probably...only to come crashing down again.



I don't really care what it does as long as I catch it right.


----------



## cdawall (May 12, 2019)

Bull run


----------



## hat (May 12, 2019)

I'm thinking of pulling what I got and using it to help me get a car.


----------



## verycharbroiled (May 12, 2019)

Nice increase. Don't forget to pull some profit here and there as you never know when a nasty correction can happen.

Then again all I know (being in this since 2011) is every real bull run to a new ATH makes the previous ATH look pathetic.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 13, 2019)

Well now...  wasn't expecting the trading volume to be getting this substantial this quickly.   Not many sellers to be found right now...


----------



## Sasqui (May 13, 2019)

yakk said:


> Well now...  wasn't expecting the trading volume to be getting this substantial this quickly.   Not many sellers to be found right now...



Over $7,900 right now.   This would be a good thing for the semiconductor industry if it kept running up.


----------



## hat (May 13, 2019)

I sold just under 7000. Wouldn't have, but I needed it.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 13, 2019)

Sasqui said:


> Over $7,900 right now.   This would be a good thing for the semiconductor industry if it kept running up.



I expect the price swings to be pretty substantial up & down for a while.  I don't even know what to think about the bitcoin futures market which aren't open 24/7, good luck there.  Looks like the U.S. - China tariff news caused the dump of a bunch of money into bitcoin.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 13, 2019)

China is #1 for cryptocurrency everything so, yeah, good chance this spike is caused by Chinese investors trading yuan (which is rapidly losing value) for crypto.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 13, 2019)

China has been the #1 buyer of gold worldwide for a number of years now.  Push come to shove I'd think they're not too worried of the value of their yuan.

If they are also diversifying into bitcoin,  now that is interesting.


----------



## trog100 (May 13, 2019)

the stock markets look a bit grim.. gold is up crypto is up more.. money has to go somewhere.. 

trog


----------



## TheMadDutchDude (May 14, 2019)

Breaking past the $8K barrier for BTC ... is it too early to call 'to da moon'?


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 14, 2019)

Looks like bitcoin trading volume of the last 2 days is the highest ever.  Makes sense why it went straight through giant sell walls nobody expected.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 14, 2019)

Bitcoin just broke $8,000 per coin!!!!! here comes the bull run, if any of you did not sell last time, I'd wait maybe until around 9k and sell everything, I really don't see this lasting. It's def some kind of pump and dump scheme seeing as how there a few massive players running the game.


----------



## trog100 (May 14, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Bitcoin just broke $8,000 per coin!!!!! here comes the bull run, if any of you did not sell last time, I'd wait maybe until around 9k and sell everything, I really don't see this lasting. It's def some kind of pump and dump scheme seeing as how there a few massive players running the game.



i shall hodle on and see where it goes.. he he..

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (May 14, 2019)

Spot of lateral thinking


----------



## Space Lynx (May 14, 2019)

trog100 said:


> i shall hodle on and see where it goes.. he he..
> 
> trog



if it breaks 10k a coin I'd sell 70% of your coins.  hodl the other 30% until it hits 7k or lower (or maybe you get lucky and it does keep rising then sell at 20k the last 30%), and just retire.  it does have a limit, don't push your luck - also ask yourself this, how much money do you I really need to be happy in life? If you have a chance now to cash out and really upgrade your overall longevity, then do so.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> if it breaks 10k a coin I'd sell 70% of your coins.  hodl the other 30% until it hits 7k or lower (or maybe you get lucky and it does keep rising then sell at 20k the last 30%), and just retire.  it does have a limit, don't push your luck - also ask yourself this, how much money do you I really need to be happy in life? If you have a chance now to cash out and really upgrade your overall longevity, then do so.



If people bought them at 12k last time, selling at 10k isn't exactly a great proposition is it?  Better than it has been but far from great.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 14, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> If people bought them at 12k last time, selling at 10k isn't exactly a great proposition is it?  Better than it has been but far from great.



it could also crash hard back down to 3k or probably lower if people lose faith in it. and then he is out a lot of profit... so really its up to each person in how much money they need in life to live "comfortably"  --- how many times has it been reported there were fake bitcoin trades done to inflate the price?  just saying... its a dangerous game


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 14, 2019)

Bitcoin volume at CME Group topped $1 billion for the first time yesterday.  Lots of shorts on CME went under


----------



## Space Lynx (May 14, 2019)

yakk said:


> Bitcoin volume at CME Group topped $1 billion for the first time yesterday.  Lots of shorts on CME went under




no idea what this means, you are on a different level mate.  care to explain in laymans terms what this means?


----------



## juiseman (May 14, 2019)

Anybody CPU mining? I was doing nice hash last may; was making round 3$-4$ day off just CPU's....
tried it over the winter; and profit was .10 cents....lol....

just wondering since i have a lot of multicore Server CPU's with large L3's....


----------



## trog100 (May 14, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> no idea what this means, you are on a different level mate.  care to explain in laymans terms what this means?



it means that people who bet on it going down lost out.. going long means betting on it going up.. going short means betting on it going down..

trog


----------



## hat (May 14, 2019)

You gotta have some serious CPUs to make that worth it. Most people only do GPU mining these days.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 14, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> no idea what this means, you are on a different level mate.  care to explain in laymans terms what this means?





trog100 said:


> it means that people who bet on it going down lost out.. going long means betting on it going up.. going short means betting on it going down..
> 
> trog



The CME is for Chicago Mercantile Exchange, this is currently one of the biggest gateways for U.S. institutional investors to buy bitcoin futures.  This is not a fly-by-night exchange.

A lot of companies use this to hedge their positions so they don't lose out weather bitcoin goes up or down.  The fact that the sellers were blown out of the water there generally means demand is very high.


----------



## Mescalamba (May 15, 2019)

juiseman said:


> Anybody CPU mining? I was doing nice hash last may; was making round 3$-4$ day off just CPU's....
> tried it over the winter; and profit was .10 cents....lol....
> 
> just wondering since i have a lot of multicore Server CPU's with large L3's....



Only if you mine something thats "CPU only mining" otherwise no. Usually most profitable is ETC, from those normal ones. Which is GPU or ASIC (unsure if ASICs work now).


----------



## juiseman (May 15, 2019)

Thanks; I fortgot what algo nice hash was using when mining. It was probably was mining a CPU only coin...
Its probably not worth my time and power cost.
 From what I understand; when the popularity went down and the difficulty 
of the alt coins went up...it became worthless..


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 17, 2019)

It was another pump and dump:








						Bitcoin sinks abruptly after seven weeks of recovery
					

The price of bitcoin abruptly sank more than 20% on Friday, a move that didn't appear to have a particular trigger and came after a strong recovery in the crypto-currency since early April that took it to 10-month highs.




					www.reuters.com
				



What a rollercoaster:


----------



## Outback Bronze (May 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It was another pump and dump:



Probably the guy that bought 20K worth of BTC on the 1st April @ 4k. Sold them @ 8K - doubled his money : )


----------



## Space Lynx (May 17, 2019)

Outback Bronze said:


> Probably the guy that bought 20K worth of BTC on the 1st April @ 4k. Sold them @ 8K - doubled his money : )


w

how does one spend such little profit though if one is already subject to impulse buying? its no different than the 18 yr old kids who graduate from high school, who end up making 50k a year right away, and they end up blowing it all on dumb stuff. sorry but your 60 grand pickup truck is just as a good as my little camry. it gets me from place A to place B reliably. everything in existence is simply perception at this point, and attitude. sadly, enough is never for any of us. I admire the Stoics of ancient times.


----------



## Mescalamba (May 17, 2019)

There is a thing called "correction". Which is something that happens after market reaches certain point in upward trend. Surprisingly, price cant go upwards forever.

Ofc, its easier to imagine that its manipulated..


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 17, 2019)

Correction
					

A correction is a drop of at least 10% in the price of a stock, bond, commodity, or index.




					www.investopedia.com
				











						Crash
					

A crash is a sudden and significant decline in the value of a market. A crash is most often associated with an inflated stock market.




					www.investopedia.com
				











						Pump-and-Dump: Definition, How the Scheme is Illegal, and Types
					

Pump-and-dump is a manipulative scheme to boost the price of a security through fake recommendations based on false, misleading, or exaggerated statements.




					www.investopedia.com
				




Enron was behind a pump and dump in oil...they got shut down...hard.  Because cryptocurrencies are decentralized and accounts are generally anonymous, there's no legal path to pursue those that pump and dump.  And so, cryptocurrencies primary advantage is also it's primary disadvantage.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 17, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> sorry but your 60 grand pickup truck is just as a good as my little camry. it gets me from place A to place B reliably.



Can your Camry tow a boat from point A to point B?  Is a Pentium 4 as good as a 2700X because they both boot a computer and open a program?



lynx29 said:


> everything in existence is simply perception at this point



And functionality fitting in use case.  Not everything is perception.  I can't make a Camry tow my boat based on perception.  Well, I can but it isn't going to make back from point B to point A.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 17, 2019)

Selloff as expected,  just 1 week later which is interesting in itself.


----------



## trog100 (May 27, 2019)

yakk said:


> Selloff as expected,  just 1 week later which is interesting in itself.



and now back up to $8600 dollars.. it took a big jump a couple of hours ago..

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 27, 2019)

Another pump...


----------



## moproblems99 (May 27, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Another pump...



Keep on pumping baby...Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.


----------



## R-T-B (May 27, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Another pump...



Does someone need to reset fords record?

Doing fine here, anyways.  Expect an upward trend from here myself.  Yes there'll be corrections that ford can shout "dump!" on, but the trend should be rise (no to 20k+ mind, that was batshit and I hated it).


----------



## trog100 (May 27, 2019)

my biggest loser was neo.. i sold a bunch of litecoin to buy neo.. now its worth next to f-ck all.. he he

still its nice to see it all moving higher.. 

trog


----------



## R-T-B (May 27, 2019)

trog100 said:


> my biggest loser was neo.. i sold a bunch of litecoin to buy neo.. now its worth next to f-ck all.. he he
> 
> still its nice to see it all moving higher..
> 
> trog



I bought a small bit of Litecoin a week ago.  Going to sit on it until the block halving in August.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 27, 2019)

trog100 said:


> and now back up to $8600 dollars.. it took a big jump a couple of hours ago..
> 
> trog



CBOE Bitcoin futures trading opens on Sunday evenings, so probably caused the pump.  Yeah looks like institutional demand for Bitcoin is still increasing


----------



## Space Lynx (May 27, 2019)

AT&T also announced they are allowing customers to pay in Bitcoin, and several major retailers are adding Bitcoin as payment method, so not just a pump this time, an actual acceptance of the currency outside of having to rely on exchanges. I won't be buying any though, I need very little money in this life to be happy, and am not willing to risk it on gambling, drugs, alcohol, or ciggs.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (May 27, 2019)

Yup, seems to explain at least one reason why U.S. Bitcoin futures are leading and rising faster than the rest of the global Bitcoin market in general.  If corporations are moving towards bitcoin, they need to secure (hedge) themselves through futures, same as any currency on forex.

This is a big difference from years before where futures just weren't available and limited bitcoin's commercial appeal.

Can't imagine what will happen when the Lightning protocol will be ready for primetime use.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 16, 2019)

Bitcoin now up over $9000.. still on  a sustained up it seems..

trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 16, 2019)

Another Sunday special, Bitcoin is like clockwork lately.  Interesting to see what happens Sunday evening in the U.S. when the futures market opens again with a nice size gap to make up for.


----------



## hat (Jun 17, 2019)

trog100 said:


> Bitcoin now up over $9000.. still on  a sustained up it seems..
> 
> trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 20, 2019)

CME Bitcoin futures constantly creating new volume highs, more & more institutions are getting in.  U.S. not Asian countries seems to be leading the way globally, interesting.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 20, 2019)

gold is also on the up.. at five years highs





__





						Daily Gold Market Report
					






					www.usagold.com
				




trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 20, 2019)

Yeah...  looks like something is seriously scaring U.S. institutions into moving sizable portions of their positions into Gold & Bitcoin safe havens.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 20, 2019)

Probably responding to the Fed...








						Rate-cut euphoria elevates S&P 500 to record high
					

The S&P 500 hit a record high on Thursday, lifted by Wall Street's expectations that the Federal Reserve will cut interest rates as soon as next month to keep the U.S.-China trade war from stalling economic growth.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## dorsetknob (Jun 20, 2019)

yakk said:


> Yeah... looks like something is seriously scaring U.S. institutions into moving sizable portions of their positions into Gold & Bitcoin safe havens.


Or Candidate's Confirmation for 2020


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 20, 2019)

What a mess if you factor in the U.S. $120 million Globalhawk spy plane Iran just shot down allegedly over their territory, which Iran claims unlike the boats.   Markets will either be choppy, or moving to safe haven assets.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 20, 2019)

Oil already responded...








						Oil jumps 5% on Iran tension, potential U.S. fed rate cut
					

Oil soared more than 5% on Thursday after Iran shot down a U.S. military drone, raising fears of a military confrontation between Tehran and Washington.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## xkm1948 (Jun 20, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> Or Candidate's Confirmation for 2020



wut? im out of news on this one


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## trog100 (Jun 22, 2019)

bitcoin is now just below $10000 and gold just below 1400.. something is afoot.. he he

trog


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## Metroid (Jun 22, 2019)

trog100 said:


> bitcoin is now just over $10000 and gold just over 1400.. something is afoot.. he he
> 
> trog



Correction. Bitcoin was never meant to be paired to gold or anything, that was a pump scam to increase bitcoin's price fast when it was around $30, we see today that those same scammers don't want gold to be used on that terminology. Ethereum on the other side, was never paired to anything cause no limit can be found on its usage in the future. ETH will grow as much as ebusiness rise, the same can't be said about bitcoin, network 15 seconds x 10 minutes is huge and their usage is different. Bitcoin was always meant to hold value, eth to spread value.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 22, 2019)

Bitcoin in 5 digit territory again, wonder if they'll be a pullback.

Edit:  lol...  up another $400 since posting


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 22, 2019)

I don't understand why governments of the world are not banning cryptocurrency exchanges yet, how many times do ransomware attackers have to shut down city governments and hospitals before congress or other world leaders come to their senses? Without the exchanges to fiat banks crypto is useless, if any of the major nation states banned the exchanges and private business would therefore stop accepting it, etc- it would ruin the incentive for a lot of ransomware attackers, and yes I know they could still exchange it in another country, but they would still be stuck living in that said country as a lot of nation states like to know where you got your money from, aka United Kingdom's program where they can investigate you if you have a lot of spending power, or just the IRS in USA in general being nosy even if they say they aren't, everyone knows they are.

I am merely curious, if anyone cares to explain it to me? Why have world leaders not realized this yet? Ransomware would diminish tenfold if you banned the exchanges, there is no doubt in my mind. The incentive would be gone if the value is gone.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 22, 2019)

Gosh, when will governments ban cars so people that drink and drive can't kill anyone again.



Metroid said:


> Correction. Bitcoin was never meant to be paired to gold or anything, that was a pump scam to increase bitcoin's price fast when it was around $30, we see today that those same scammers don't want gold to be used on that terminology. Ethereum on the other side, was never paired to anything cause no limit can be found on its usage in the future. ETH will grow as much as ebusiness rise, the same can't be said about bitcoin, network 15 seconds x 10 minutes is huge and their usage is different. Bitcoin was always meant to hold value, eth to spread value.



It's not that it is paired to gold it is that the indicators kind of flare at the same time and for similar reasons.


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## trog100 (Jun 23, 2019)

people dont buy gold to spend it they buy it to hold value in risky times.. i think the same thing is happening to bitcoin..

trog


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## R-T-B (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I don't understand why governments of the world are not banning cryptocurrency exchanges yet, how many times do ransomware attackers have to shut down city governments and hospitals before congress or other world leaders come to their senses?



Because those bigtime scammers aren't cashing out at exchanges like that.  You'd be caught instantly.



moproblems99 said:


> It's not that it is paired to gold it is that the indicators kind of flare at the same time and for similar reasons.



Satoshi Nakamato did once state it's limit is not arbitrary and designed to mimic a certain precious metal, ironic as it has exceeded it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 23, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Satoshi Nakamato did once state it's limit is not arbitrary and designed to mimic a certain precious metal, ironic as it has exceeded it.


Well if you think about it, there's less of it to go around. Bitcoin(proper) has a limit, only so many can be derived/mined and once that limit is reached, there's no more. Gold is something we continue to mine, and when we get more creative we'll find more of it.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 23, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Well if you think about it, there's less of it to go around. Bitcoin(proper) has a limit, only so many can be derived/mined and once that limit is reached, there's no more. Gold is something we continue to mine, and when we get more creative we'll find more of it.



There is a finite amount of gold (considering the earth-only) in the end though and as more is mined, production becomes more and more costly.  That is precisely what the block halvings attempt to emulate.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 23, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> There is a finite amount of gold (considering the earth-only) in the end though and as more is mined, production becomes more and more costly.  That is precisely what the block halvings attempt to emulate.


While that's a good point, there is a great deal more left in the ground that we haven't gone after yet. I read one estimate that stated in all of our history we have yet to touch even 0.1% of the gold available in the earth's crust. With Bitcoin, it's mostly been mined. There's what, less than 20% left to be found?


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 23, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Because those bigtime scammers aren't cashing out at exchanges like that.  You'd be caught instantly.
> 
> 
> 
> Satoshi Nakamato did once state it's limit is not arbitrary and designed to mimic a certain precious metal, ironic as it has exceeded it.



The big time scammers are indeed using the monero coin they get and converting it to bitcoin, and then to zcash, back to monero, several wallets several vpn's, but I have no doubt in my mind that ransomware folks are taking that monero coin to fiat through a long and slow process, or just outright buying stuff with Bitcoin as several stores accept it now. It encourages major theft the likes our society has not seen in decades. Not to mention the stealing of electricity a lot of miners do and get away with.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> The big time scammers are indeed using the monero coin they get and converting it to bitcoin, and then to zcash, back to monero, several wallets several vpn's, but I have no doubt in my mind that ransomware folks are taking that monero coin to fiat through a long and slow process, or just outright buying stuff with Bitcoin as several stores accept it now. It encourages major theft the likes our society has not seen in decades. Not to mention the stealing of electricity a lot of miners do and get away with.


That statement makes a lot of assumptions and implies that such is rampant. Such an implication is incorrect.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> It encourages major theft the likes our society has not seen in decades. Not to mention the stealing of electricity a lot of miners do and get away with.



If you think BTC is what is encouraging major theft in the likes we haven't seen for decades, then I have some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 23, 2019)

Odd question, a Raspberry Pi was used to hack NASA, should all Raspberry Pi, and by extension, all computers be banned?

In other news... 1 BTC is worth over 7 oz. of gold at time of writing.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 23, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That statement makes a lot of assumptions and implies that such is rampant. Such an implication is incorrect.



It is? I have read about 20 hospital and local city government ransomware that were forced to pay in last 12 months alone, and it's increasing at a compounding rate as price goes up.



yakk said:


> Odd question, a Raspberry Pi was used to hack NASA, should all Raspberry Pi, and by extension, all computers be banned?
> 
> In other news... 1 BTC is worth over 7 oz. of gold at time of writing.


no but critical systems should never be hooked up to an online network to begin with. LAN only imo. the context of your argument is different than mine, but thanks for trying to distort it.

regardless I don't care either way. i have lived 15 years on 10 bucks an hour, and quite frankly I am plenty happy. enjoy all your riches.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> It is? I have read about 20 hospital and local city government ransomware that were forced to pay in last 12 months alone, and it's increasing at a compounding rate as price goes up.



Price, and by proxy bitcoin, has nothing to do with it.  Ransomware writers would demand irreversible transactions like western union wire transfers to a no-laws nation if cryptocurrency were banned.  They cash out nearly immediately anyways so price does not matter to them.

The issue is the cryptography that powers ransomware, and you can't really outlaw that.



lynx29 said:


> enjoy all your riches.



Don't need to.  Money doesn't buy happiness.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 23, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Price, and by proxy bitcoin, has nothing to do with it.  Ransomware writers would demand irreversible transactions like western union wire transfers to a no-laws nation if cryptocurrency were banned.  They cash out nearly immediately anyways so price does not matter to them.
> 
> The issue is the cryptography that powers ransomware, and you can't really outlaw that.
> 
> ...



I have never seen a single ransomware ask for western union... and even if it did exist it existed in primitive times... it would easily be traceable now and setup before the hospital/government would release the funds. Also the frequency of the attacks would be lower. Crpyto makes it easier to be a criminal no doubt about it.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I have never seen a single ransomware ask for western union...



Because it costs more.  Expect it when crypto is banned (along with increased cost).



lynx29 said:


> it would easily be traceable now and setup before the hospital/government would release the funds.



There'll always be a bank that won't cooperate somewhere.



lynx29 said:


> Crpyto makes it easier to be a criminal no doubt about it.



That may be true, but it's not enough reason to outlaw it IMO.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 23, 2019)

I suppose so, and corporations are kept in check because of crpyto as well, their power is limited when they are not monopoly. I don't know though, it seems to be the U.S. Government doesn't enforce the laws so well lately when it comes to money laundering etc, it makes me wonder why doesn't everyone just go full on corrupt, I think that will happen in next ten years or so. and soon after the value of the dollar will be worthless, especially when are 6 trillion war debts stay unpaid with compounding interest, and 23 trillion total now even though it only like 14 trillion actual, but still. once the democrats win in response to trump and add on a few trillion to that with universal healthcare, etc "unexpected it cost this much" as an excuse... 

I don't know, eh. just seems like the world is playing a dangerous game lately, specifically America. Debt is no big deal anymore. How long can that last before it all collapses. Maybe crypto is the future


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> no but critical systems should never be hooked up to an online network to begin with. LAN only imo. the context of your argument is different than mine, but thanks for trying to distort it.
> 
> regardless I don't care either way. i have lived 15 years on 10 bucks an hour, and quite frankly I am plenty happy. enjoy all your riches.



Hmm ok then, nobody including banks, should be able to use cryptography either because bad people could use it?  The basic idea is the same. 

As for debt, under the current monetary system debt is required.   Without debt the borrowing system can't function, and when borrowing too much, well we will see what happens.


----------



## er557 (Jun 23, 2019)

bitcoin has now briefly been on 11k $, and analysts predict it will rise in a few months to 40k$ per unit.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> It is? I have read about 20 hospital and local city government ransomware that were forced to pay in last 12 months alone, and it's increasing at a compounding rate as price goes up.


Ok, now compare that number to theft crimes IRL. I'm not saying it's not happening or that it's not serious, just that it's not rampant and the whole of the cryptocurrency world shouldn't have to close up shop because of the actions of a few nitwits.


----------



## Metroid (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> It is? I have read about 20 hospital and local city government ransomware that were forced to pay in last 12 months alone, and it's increasing at a compounding rate as price goes up.



If they had invested in security that would never have happened, with few steps as a network administrator, I could have solved all their problems hehe



er557 said:


> bitcoin has now briefly been on 11k $, and analysts predict it will rise in a few months to 40k$ per unit.



Few companies have already trillion dollar market value, to me is just normal cryptocoin market value hitting that next year.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 23, 2019)

i wish i had bought one whole bitcoin back at the beginning of the year.. but at least i didnt sell what i had.. my hodling is paying off.. he he..

neo is my big loser.. it was worth hundreds now its worth 15 dollars.. i have 25 of the f-cking things i sold half my litecoin to buy neo.. ouch..

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 23, 2019)

trog100 said:


> i wish i had bought one whole bitcoin back at the beginning of the year.. but at least i didnt sell what i had.. my hodling is paying off.. he he..
> 
> neo is my big loser.. it was worth hundreds now its worth 15 dollars.. i have 25 of the f-cking things i sold half my litecoin to buy neo.. ouch..
> 
> trog



there is no stopping bitcoin now, i'd trade everything you have for whatever small amount you can get, and it will still double in value. I'm still worried we are helping China rise to ultimate power with bitcoin, those massive mines on the river dams... there is no doubt in my mind they control majority of coins.  since the government seized a lot of those massive mines, I saw one photo on an niche website of this dam in China, massive massive farm... miners everywhere in like a massive cave... it was lit. lol more power to them, death comes soon enough for all of us, mother nature has had enough with us.   we got 20 years at best left before mass displacement begins, 3-5 years if you live in India where 600 million might be out of water soon.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> regardless I don't care either way. i have lived 15 years on 10 bucks an hour, and quite frankly I am plenty happy. enjoy all your riches.



Orly?



lynx29 said:


> I suppose so, and corporations are kept in check because of crpyto as well, their power is limited when they are not monopoly. I don't know though, it seems to be the U.S. Government doesn't enforce the laws so well lately when it comes to money laundering etc, it makes me wonder why doesn't everyone just go full on corrupt, I think that will happen in next ten years or so. and soon after the value of the dollar will be worthless, especially when are 6 trillion war debts stay unpaid with compounding interest, and 23 trillion total now even though it only like 14 trillion actual, but still. once the democrats win in response to trump and add on a few trillion to that with universal healthcare, etc "unexpected it cost this much" as an excuse...
> 
> I don't know, eh. just seems like the world is playing a dangerous game lately, specifically America. Debt is no big deal anymore. How long can that last before it all collapses. Maybe crypto is the future





lynx29 said:


> there is no stopping bitcoin now, i'd trade everything you have for whatever small amount you can get, and it will still double in value. I'm still worried we are helping China rise to ultimate power with bitcoin, those massive mines on the river dams... there is no doubt in my mind they control majority of coins.  since the government seized a lot of those massive mines, I saw one photo on an niche website of this dam in China, massive massive farm... miners everywhere in like a massive cave... it was lit. lol more power to them, death comes soon enough for all of us, mother nature has had enough with us.   we got 20 years at best left before mass displacement begins, 3-5 years if you live in India where 600 million might be out of water soon.




Those aren't happy thoughts from a happy person.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 26, 2019)

Bitcoin is around $12500 now.. i think what it does now is anybodies guess.. 









						Bitcoin: Analysts go bonkers as king coin breaches major resistances and heads for the moon
					

Analysts and their charts are a match made in heaven. Bitcoin’s price push over $12,000 has put the coin on the verge of a $13,000 price breakout or fakeout, resulting in several cryptocurrency analysts going bonkers with their price predictions, resistance and support level placing and...




					ambcrypto.com
				




trog


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 26, 2019)

trog100 said:


> i think what it does now is anybodies guess



My guess is up, up and away.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jun 26, 2019)

Price can go up or down but many people are sweating it don't spike a resurgence of mining and the resultant Price rise/demand for hardware


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> Price can go up or down but many people are sweating it don't spike a resurgence of mining and the resultant Price rise/demand for hardware


Yeah, cause we need that like we need a whole in the forehead.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 26, 2019)

Bitcoin mining at an all time high. 

For those worried about hardware prices,  so far only bitcoin proper is going up in fiat value and bitcoin has no need of regular CPUs or GPUs, only altcoins need those.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 26, 2019)

yakk said:


> Bitcoin mining at an all time high.
> 
> For those worried about hardware prices,  so far only bitcoin proper is going up in fiat value and bitcoin has no need of regular CPUs or GPUs, only altcoins need those.



bitcoin makes the headlines but the main altcoins are following bitcoin up.. they missed this last little overnight spike but thats about all.. 

trog


----------



## Mescalamba (Jun 26, 2019)

Crime done in FIAT outshines those done in cryptocurrency probably thousand times.

People will use whatever they want to do crime and pay for it. Heck, they even use gold bars.


----------



## hat (Jun 26, 2019)

I cashed out just over .1 BTC when it was just below $7000. Had I waited until today to do that, instead of roughly $700 I could have pulled over $1300. That really rustles my jimmies... but then I remember I can easily make that up by taking a few extra days at work, and I can do so in about 2 weeks or so. I took me over a year to mine .1BTC. 

FWIW I needed a car and that helped me get one. So now I'm rebuilding my little BTC stash until next time...


----------



## TheMadDutchDude (Jun 26, 2019)

I hear ya... I remember selling a bunch of ETH at $10 each and then seeing it hit $800 the following year.


----------



## silkstone (Jun 26, 2019)

TheMadDutchDude said:


> I hear ya... I remember selling a bunch of ETH at $10 each and then seeing it hit $800 the following year.



Losing all my mined bitcoin back when it was $3 a pop didn't seem like a big deal. It stung a little more when I saw it reach close to $20k, if only because losing all my bitcoin made me stop bothering to mine it any more.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 26, 2019)

aye Bitcoin is the future I have no doubts now, I just wish it didn't have to use so much electricity... we have messed up the Earth more than even scientists realize I think, Bitcoin did not help it any.  the permafrost melting in Canada 70 years earlier than predicted has me scared. humans will always be blinded by their greed and envy, this is why mother nature will "correct" our population numbers within 20 years whether we like it or not, and it's our own fault.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jun 26, 2019)

Why can't BTC go on a bull run during the winter again, so I can get free heat from it instead of having to worry about cooling costs...


----------



## trog100 (Jun 26, 2019)

just a tad under $13500 now and still seemingly going up vertically.. 

its gone up well over 2000 dollars in the last 24 hours.. it does make you wonder just what is driving it and how far its gonna go.. he he

trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 26, 2019)

Yeeeeah this price spike right before AMD launch event is a great hodl test, at least it's not the Threadripper launch!  

Expected a pullback 2k+ ago so who knows, this is unknown territory.



trog100 said:


> bitcoin makes the headlines but the main altcoins are following bitcoin up.. they missed this last little overnight spike but thats about all..



Oh seems the institutional investors (and of all things NFL players, but that's another story) are really popping bitcoin.  A couple major alts are somewhat following on tailwinds, maybe from people hoping to regain lost ground.  That's quite a big difference from last time at this level.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 26, 2019)

trog100 said:


> just a tad under $13500 now and still seemingly going up vertically..
> 
> its gone up well over 2000 dollars in the last 24 hours.. it does make you wonder just what is driving it and how far its gonna go.. he he
> 
> trog



it sure isn't the common man buying and selling that much coin.  its the big players at this point, all trying to circle jerk eachother into richness.  the problem is, who pulls out first? game of chicken. unless they are conspiring together to raise the price, which is also possible, since their are no regulations preventing that, like their are on the stock markets.


----------



## Good3alz (Jun 26, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm not convinced there will be another "big pump."  Too many investors got burned which should make it clear that crypto is a poor investment.  I think once the investors finish selling off, it'll go back to like it was in 2016 where only miners are involved based on electrical cost.


How much does it actually cost to make 1 BT Coin. (IF you already have the equipment).. so just electricity cost.
Factor in a cost of 'burn' on your already owned equipment...
Not, "It cost $25k, because that is what I put into my system and a months work of electricity bill."

I know nothing about it.

What is a BTC? How is it made.. all of a sudden, your pc and cards run for months until you find an anomaly in space? Does someone go into there office one day, hits a button to release a BTC for anyone to find floating out in cyberspace?

Do you get 1 for every 20,000 hrs of run on your system?

I'm trying to figure out how a market can be created by something I don't see real.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 27, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> aye Bitcoin is the future I have no doubts now



Bitcoin is as much the future as Micky Mouse is president.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 27, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Bitcoin is as much the future as Micky Mouse is president.



as far as gold goes i mean, lot of companies embracing it now, from AT&T to Newegg, etc etc lot of mom and pop shops accept it like HID Evolution, etc.


----------



## Metroid (Jun 27, 2019)

Friday 28 June will be another bull movement success. 15k is the target.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 27, 2019)

Metroid said:


> Friday 28 June will be another bull movement success. 15k is the target.



yawnfest 2019. since Democrats need more things to tax for all these social things they want to do, I hope crypto is next, 20% tax on it for accelerating the destruction of the environment.  Bernie will make it happen.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 27, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> accelerating the destruction of the environment.



Um.. https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-shockingly-renewable-energy/

And.. http://climatestate.com/2018/01/15/energy-consumption-bitcoin-vs-banking-system/


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 27, 2019)

Good3alz said:


> How much does it actually cost to make 1 BT Coin. (IF you already have the equipment).. so just electricity cost.
> Factor in a cost of 'burn' on your already owned equipment...
> Not, "It cost $25k, because that is what I put into my system and a months work of electricity bill."
> 
> ...



Going to be a long read for you, but I'd start looking up cryptocurrencies on wikipedia, starting with bitcoin.  Keep in mind understanding may very well not be worth your time.  They are very complex to understand but very real (in the sense people will pay for them) all the same.


----------



## Metroid (Jun 27, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> yawnfest 2019. since Democrats need more things to tax for all these social things they want to do, I hope crypto is next, 20% tax on it for accelerating the destruction of the environment.  Bernie will make it happen.



If there somebody that could destroy crypto those people are the communists, bernie is a born communist, communist countries as we know use cryptosystems for their own benefit as long as the US in on top, as soon as the US is out of picture, next day cryptocoins are dead hehe and so billions of people. "All for state power and nothing for the people" <-- this is their unofficial tag line.

Bernie is the greatest reflection of "everything is perfect with socialism" until is implemented, after implemented then is the worse thing ever, so socialism is only good in theory.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 27, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> my point



Yeah, your point is a bit random over what I was trying to stipulate.



lynx29 said:


> it will increase exponentially as time goes on



Renewable energy will, yes..


----------



## Metroid (Jun 27, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I bet you have no anxiety or stress in the UK about getting sick though? You might not like your universal health coverage in the UK, but you don't realize the sub-conscious effect it has on you, the stress of my medical bills caused me more medical issues due to the severity of my situation a few years ago.
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bitcoin-mining-energy-consumption/  Bitcoin consumes more electricity than 159 countries, probably way more than that now.  Also, Medicaid and Medicare and the VA are socialist programs... Bernie isn't saying anything new, just saying squash it all and create one, because quite frankly we shouldn't have to pay $20 for a single aspirin pill when we go to the emergency room, it's nonsense and the private insurers are scamming people, there is no question about it.



Here is th uk, the socialism has been implemented long time ago, I wish people could have fair medical bills in the event they would have to pay for private care, so they would treat them better, here they think because is free they only save who they want to save and who they dont want they leave it to die. There are so many cases here, too many, people with some problems are not helped at all by the nhs, the nhs let these people to die. This is socialism, if these people were to pay they would live longer and perhaps illness free. Funny thing and pay attention to this, because the nhs is free, there are private care within nhs and because of that monopoly, who have the money and want something else the nhs also provides but this is the important thing, only people with lots of money are able to pay this because there is no competition. If there is no competition then common people cant pay, so nhs dont help the needed and the needed cant pay for medical care because of the monopoly in the private care. If this was 100% private, competition would dictate the price and that is a good thing.

Bernie will send the US to the dark ages, aka soviet state. The UK is only waiting the soviets to get here to make their stay forever hehe


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 27, 2019)

Finally a pullback, that was a long time coming...


----------



## Metroid (Jun 27, 2019)

yakk said:


> Finally a pullback, that was a long time coming...



This a great opportunity to buy, these pullbacks is the golden opportunity. 20k is within few weeks to months and it will come. BTC halving is in May next year.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 27, 2019)

this guy was right about the 13.4 peak.. or it seems he was..










trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jun 27, 2019)

I would tend to agree with the big incoming correction, but this being bitcoin, there is no precedence or artificially imposed limits.



Metroid said:


> This a great opportunity to buy, these pullbacks is the golden opportunity. 20k is within few weeks to months and it will come. BTC halving is in May next year.



Market went irrational FOMO short term, happens often enough and wouldn't touch it.  Medium term, don't disagree.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 27, 2019)

my prediction.. bitcoin will go sideways for a bit at 11.5 k and then it will take off again.. i dont see it going down to 7 or 8k before it takes off again..

its fun watching and guessing.. he he

trog


----------



## Metroid (Jun 27, 2019)

if you are lucky to find the top at the moment and exchange for usdt then wait few hours waiting for the pullback then you can rebuy and wait for the next rise and repeat, bullmarket is hard to find when is going to pullback, there are still people waiting bitcoin to return at 4k,5k,6k,7k,8k because they sold and never rebought. They gambled and lost I guess.


----------



## trog100 (Jun 27, 2019)

i dont trade in the stuff i just ignored all the advice to sell and hodled a bit from last time around..

most of what i have is in altcoins so they are the ones i need to go up.. eth litecoin cardano and i would love to see neo go back up to where it was.. he he..

i still wont sell i will simply hodle for ever.. 

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 27, 2019)

Metroid said:


> If there somebody that could destroy crypto those people are the communists, bernie is a born communist, communist countries as we know use cryptosystems for their own benefit as long as the US in on top, as soon as the US is out of picture, next day cryptocoins are dead hehe and so billions of people. "All for state power and nothing for the people" <-- this is their unofficial tag line.
> 
> Bernie is the greatest reflection of "everything is perfect with socialism" until is implemented, after implemented then is the worse thing ever, so socialism is only good in theory.



Not really the thread for that topic.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 27, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Bitcoin is under 11k at the moment, that correction boi! haha that is a problem when it's only a few major players involved. your common man will not want to buy a partial bitcoin, and 10k is out of reach, so that is a huge market lost and one of Bitcoins biggest marketing problems. If someone could convince the masses that owning a partial coin is awesome more might do it, it is a hard sell though, for some reason the human brain likes simple numbers, the masses anyway. So for the foreseeable future Bitcoin is limited to a few niche people like those on this forum or big players, and a few randoms scattered, and desperate people in failed states. I think I will pass. Hopefully the slide doesn't keep happening though, I would like to see it 100k per coin, if nothing else, just to shake the world economy up a bit, much like a monopoly in business, government monopolies need to be put in check on never ending printing. My father last night was saying we need to go to war with Iran, I said Dad you haven't even paid the 6 trillion dollars for the other wars yet, where y'all gettin this money from. No worries just keep raising that debt ceiling and printing money lol It's going to be political suicide to propose a tax to pay the debt off, so no one will ever do that, Republicans generated more money in this economy, but they are also spending more and not cutting much back, so debt issue still not fixed, lol Fiat is going to crash and burn within 20 years if we keep spending the way we do. Maybe Trog is right to hodl long term. Nation states may be a thing of the past within our lifetime if a universal currency ANON ever takes off, not Bitcoin, but it is the foundation.



So is it still the future?  I'm confused.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 10, 2019)

1 billion dollar transaction moved in 1 bitcoin transaction in block 584,785 

There are now many, many 500million+ transactions, but 1 billion dollars is still a bit more on the rare side...  probably will start to become more & more common like 100 million transactions were back a few years...


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 10, 2019)

yakk said:


> 1 billion dollar transaction moved in 1 bitcoin transaction in block 584,785
> 
> There are now many, many 500million+ transactions, but 1 billion dollars is still a bit more on the rare side...  probably will start to become more & more common like 100 million transactions were back a few years...




it's too late for me to get in on the game, it's a rich boys paradise now. good luck


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 10, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> as far as gold goes i mean, lot of companies embracing it now, from AT&T to Newegg, etc etc lot of mom and pop shops accept it like HID Evolution, etc.



Yeah, and now look into the actual numbers. They just gamble a bit with maybe 1-2% of their total revenue. Irrelevant. And they also get new customers with it - those who have BTC. A nice cheap way for them to get some coins, no?



trog100 said:


> my prediction.. bitcoin will go sideways for a bit at 11.5 k and then it will take off again.. i dont see it going down to 7 or 8k before it takes off again..
> 
> its fun watching and guessing.. he he
> 
> trog



I'm actually a bit invested in this now too. The GF deemed it necessary to buy a tiny share. For giggles. Who knows, maybe next year its off to the Bahamas..


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 10, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> it's too late for me to get in on the game, it's a rich boys paradise now. good luck



It isn't to late. Not like you have to buy a whole coin.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 10, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> It isn't to late. Not like you have to buy a whole coin.




I'll pass. I barely have enough savings to survive as it is. Can't risk any loss, like vast majority of people in this world.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 10, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I'll pass. I barely have enough savings to survive as it is. Can't risk any loss, like vast majority of people in this world.



have a listen to a couple of guys in the know.. crypto is connected with all this..






						Dollar Will Be Sliced in Half – Bill Holter & Jim Sinclair | Greg Hunter’s USAWatchdog
					

By Greg Hunter’s USAWatchdog.com Near the beginning of this year, legendary investor Jim Sinclair and his business partner Bill Holter said the reset would start in June. Is the recent jump in gold prices confirming this? Sinclair says yes and predicts a two-tier reset in the next few years. . ...




					usawatchdog.com
				




trog


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## Space Lynx (Jul 10, 2019)

trog100 said:


> have a listen to a couple of guys in the know.. crypto is connected with all this..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that article says nothing about crypto... only gold. gold is the future for this article because its central role in governments hoarding it.  also it's very doom and gloom, I really doubt this comes to play. if it did, basically no one would bother working at their job anymore cause why work when all you can afford is a load of bread with your paycheck.  your talking the entire collapse. also, I would point out that the government of France has never had a balanced budget in 70 years. they are always running in the red, and yet people their still have a decently quality of life and the currency never collapsed. as long as the unemployment stays low and fresh sources of tax money comes in (like all online sales now have a tax added no matter what, Ebay as of last week actually), all that extra money is going back into the system. I also foresee marijuana being federally legal someday and taxed, as well increase on alcohol tax. There are many options they have still to help bring down the debt. They just aren't desperate enough yet to get over the infighting of party division. 

Also, I could care less if it all collapsed, what good has modern society done for me? I think I would quite like living in the cabin in the woods and growing my own food, no more noise of the world even if it meant dying twenty years earlier than would have been in modern society, meh life is all about perspective, I am not that happy here lately, so what if I own a nice PC, I don't really have the time to game anyway.  I have lived that way briefly a few times with my Uncle near the some lakes here in backwoods of the Midwest, and I didn't mind it.  /shrug  Whatever happens happens, I will roll with it.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 11, 2019)

some say bitcoin is digital gold but the video is about the collapse of the current debt based fiat money system.. this will require a new system..  this will be based on gold or maybe crypto.. 

both gold and bitcoin will go up massively as people lose faith in whatever fiat they are using.. those guys are saying turn your saving into silver coins dont leave it in a bank because you will lose it.. 

i recon they are spot on the ball.. civil war and societal breakdown will be the result so a cabin in the woods might not be a bad idea.. 

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 11, 2019)

trog100 said:


> some say bitcoin is digital gold but the video is about the collapse of the current debt based fiat money system.. this will require a new system..  this will be based on gold or maybe crypto..
> 
> both gold and bitcoin will go up massively as people lose faith in whatever fiat they are using.. those guys are saying turn your saving into silver coins dont leave it in a bank because you will lose it..
> 
> ...



I'm not saying it's not possible, I think it is very possible this is the near future, especially as climate change causes mass displacement (and in our hubris we think we can fix it or keep paying to rebuild at risk areas). Humans are dumb, so this indeed might be how it all exactly plays out.

Instead of money, I will do cabin in woods and various measures of protection though. I also have hundreds of books on my Kindle and enjoy writing my own fanfiction of those books, so I can get two kindles, a backup solar powered charging station, and be set for quite a long time without ever needing society.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 11, 2019)

It's bound to happen. Here is how history goes...and I love this saying btw.

Hard Times Make Strong Men.
Strong Men Make Good Times.
Good Times Make Weak Men.
Weak Men Make Hard Times...

I think we are in the Weak Men part right now, just not sure how far into it we are..so I expect some major sh|t to happen soon.

(you can substitute men for humans or mankind or women for the PC police reading this.) - the fact I felt I needed to write this tells me we are in Hard Times. lol.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 11, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> It's bound to happen. Here is how history goes...and I love this saying btw.
> 
> Hard Times Make Strong Men.
> Strong Men Make Good Times.
> ...



I think you applying it to black and white, while I also like that saying, keep in mind the common person in Ancient Rome when it fell, at its lowest point... people still ate a little food, people still had sex, people still talked with one another. When all of you speak of collapse, life doesn't just end, but yes I would recommend buying self-protection in case of thieves, etc as society fractures more and more and heat indexes increase more and more in the weather, crime will also increase, its just basic statistics.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 11, 2019)

Yes, it is a broad stroke.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 11, 2019)

they say when it breaks the first thing to suffer will be the distribution system.. its all run on credit.. when credit dries up stuff stops moving.. 

have enough essentials to keep going for a couple of weeks minimum without needing the outside world.. cos the outside world will have come to a stop.. 

trog


----------



## moproblems99 (Jul 11, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> For giggles. Who knows, maybe next year its off to the Bahamas..



I live about 1 hour boat ride from the Bahamas, let me know, I'll rent you my boat.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

Trump blasts Bitcoin, Facebook's Libra, demands they face banking regulations
					

U.S. President Donald Trump on Thursday criticized Bitcoin, Facebook's proposed Libra digital coin and other cryptocurrencies and demanded that companies seek a banking charter and make themselves subject to U.S. and global regulations if they wanted to "become a bank."




					www.reuters.com
				




here we go boys!!!! its about time!!! and bitcoin has dropped over 1k in value since this announcement! the IRS will never let a currency go unregulated, power is at hand! time to crash and sell boys! the only thing republicans hate more than democrats is people who get richer than them on things they don't understand.  expect regulations in mass if trump wins 2020


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Trump blasts Bitcoin, Facebook's Libra, demands they face banking regulations
> 
> 
> U.S. President Donald Trump on Thursday criticized Bitcoin, Facebook's proposed Libra digital coin and other cryptocurrencies and demanded that companies seek a banking charter and make themselves subject to U.S. and global regulations if they wanted to "become a bank."
> ...



Honestly Trump has so many that'll buy some just to spite him that it'll probably even out.  Man is a walking ball of rhetoric, frankly.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Honestly Trump has so many that'll buy some just to spite him that it'll probably even out.  Man is a walking ball of rhetoric, frankly.



I just hope someone hires me with decent pay now that I have Master's, but I doubt it. I honestly don't care either way about crypto stuff, I just enjoy trolling from time to time, lol


----------



## trog100 (Jul 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I just hope someone hires me with decent pay now that I have Master's, but I doubt it. I honestly don't care either way about crypto stuff, I just enjoy trolling from time to time, lol



the crypto trolls have diminished in numbers over time.. they used to be irritating but not so much now.. 










trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 12, 2019)

Can't buy better publicity, guess bitcoin is going mainstream...  kinda funny listening to the fed chairman & trump basically canceling each other out on this subject.  Wouldn't be bad at all if the u.s. made it illegal for their citizens, except for u.s. corporations and citizens anyway.  It would probably increase bitcoin's value versus the usd after a nice healthy dip while people would be forced to dump their holdings below market value.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Trump blasts Bitcoin, Facebook's Libra, demands they face banking regulations
> 
> 
> U.S. President Donald Trump on Thursday criticized Bitcoin, Facebook's proposed Libra digital coin and other cryptocurrencies and demanded that companies seek a banking charter and make themselves subject to U.S. and global regulations if they wanted to "become a bank."
> ...



Lol, how are they going to regulate a decentralized platform. If people can offshore Billions of USD and they can't stop that, how are they going to stop crypto or regulate crypto....especially if you already have cypto and don't trade in USD. There is literally no way they can..especially if you don't use mainstream exchanges like COinBase.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> Lol, how are they going to regulate a decentralized platform. If people can offshore Billions of USD and they can't stop that, how are they going to stop crypto or regulate crypto....especially if you already have cypto and don't trade in USD. There is literally no way they can..especially if you don't use mainstream exchanges like COinBase.



they could ban it from being used in any marketplace based in USA.  that would hurt its spending power ability and overall value.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 12, 2019)

Yes, it would slow it down but it won't stop it. I hope they try...prices will drop and will be another great buying opportunity.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> Yes, it would slow it down but it won't stop it.



enjoy all your crypto though cause I know about 90% of the mass population who still won't be be using it.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 12, 2019)

Doesn't matter. 90% of the population also do not trade in stocks...but plenty of money to be made. 90% of the population doesn't understand it. 50% of the population have zero in savings so don't really care what the masses are doing.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> Doesn't matter. 90% of the population also do not trade in stocks...but plenty of money to be made.



very true, good luck to you then i don't have enough savings to risk losing it sadly otherwise I might try as well


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 12, 2019)

It is all a gamble. Stocks, Crypto and even life itself.  Don't gamble what you can't lose.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 12, 2019)

The irony of banning something designed for the explicit purpose of circumventing government...


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 12, 2019)

It's all about power and control and crypto is a threat to THEM. So they will do a bunch of grand standing and empty threats to try to  maintain the illusion of control.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 12, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> The irony of banning something designed for the explicit purpose of circumventing government...



Actually built to circumvent a central governing structure; governments happens to be one of them, the IMF being the overall biggest one.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 12, 2019)

yakk said:


> Actually built to circumvent a central governing structure; governments happens to be one of them, the IMF being the overall biggest one.



Did you just semantically differentiate between "government" and "central governing structure"? Lol


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 12, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> Did you just semantically differentiate between "government" and "central governing structure"? Lol



Absolutely, the IMF is the central governing financial structure for multiple governments.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> The irony of banning something designed for the explicit purpose of circumventing government...



to be fair this is why america is quite powerful in this regard, we have more spending power than any other nation state on earth by far, so if the IRS whispers in trumps ear someday to ban it from all marketplaces and ban all exchanges because of terrorist activity used with it (the IRS always gets what it wants and Trump will do as they say since they have been kind to him and his ilk) then bitcoin would fall in price. if bitcoin truly is just gold its value wouldn't be worth as much as most people like being able to spend their money, with bitcoin now you can spend at many places.  

you can laugh all you want, but whatever currency buys my food and medicine and pays my rent will always remain dominant, you can use bitcoin for rent, for now.  if that ever changes, bitcoin will plummet I think, the rest of the worlds spending power is pretty small compared to americas, its why China has to deal with trump on trade whether they like it or not, the other markets just won't pay as much money.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 12, 2019)

Papahyooie said:


> The irony of banning something designed for the explicit purpose of circumventing government...



Satoshi was the designer and he actually was pretty far from a crypto anarchist of today...  he didn't like the illicit uses, etc.  Even went on a brief rant when wikileaks started accepting bitcoin.  Shortly after he vanished completely.

Weird to think back on.  I really do think he left out of shame from his creations end product.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Satoshi was the designer and he actually was pretty far from a crypto anarchist of today...  he didn't like the illicit uses, etc.  Even went on a brief rant when wikileaks started accepting bitcoin.  Shortly after he vanished completely.
> 
> Weird to think back on.  I really do think he left out of shame from his creations end product.



really he should be proud of Bitcoin though, since it can be traced. the only illicit coins really are Monero and Zcash etc and shady exchanges to turn those into Bitcoin, Bitcoin is really the fiat of the crypto world.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 13, 2019)

bitcoin cant be fiat.. fiat means value by dictat.. dont mix up the word fiat with legitimate..

there is also a limit to the amount of bitcoin that exists unlike fiat where banks and governments can create as much of the stuff as they like by issuing more and more low or negative interest debt.. 

trog


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 15, 2019)

bitcoin just went below 10k, lol.  that whole hodl business, I don't know, I don't see world governments collapsing anytime soon, maybe in 20 years, so I hope y'all don't mine hodling for a long time...

also another Japan exchange hacked and 32 million dollars worth of BTC stolen... happens about every week now somewhere lol.  yeah we know, use offline cold wallets, sadly if BTC is to grow, it will need a safe exchange.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 15, 2019)

yakk said:


> Absolutely, the IMF is the central governing financial structure for multiple governments.



Then it is, by definition, a government.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 15, 2019)

IMF is like a global version of FDIC.  Countries pay into it and other countries borrow against it.  It's a slush fund to keep international payment systems liquid.  It is not a government at all.  Not even really like a bank.  FDIC is the closest analog.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jul 15, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> IMF is like a global version of FDIC.  Countries pay into it and other countries borrow against it.  It's a slush fund to keep international payment systems liquid.  It is not a government at all.  Not even really like a bank.  FDIC is the closest analog.


Then it's not a government, and not a central governing structure. 

I don't particularly care whether it is or isn't a government, I'm just amused at him replying to me trying to differentiate between "government" and "central governing structure." That's not even arguing semantics, he's literally saying the same thing. A central governing structure IS a government. Whether the IMF is or is not that, I don't really care.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 15, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> bitcoin just went below 10k, lol.  that whole hodl business, I don't know, I don't see world governments collapsing anytime soon, maybe in 20 years, so I hope y'all don't mine hodling for a long time...
> 
> also another Japan exchange hacked and 32 million dollars worth of BTC stolen... happens about every week now somewhere lol.  yeah we know, use offline cold wallets, sadly if BTC is to grow, it will need a safe exchange.



i think 10K  was its bottom.. time for it to start going up again... 

trog


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 15, 2019)

Be nice of it went below 10K again...  good probability, we're will see...


----------



## trog100 (Jul 15, 2019)

yakk said:


> Be nice of it went below 10K again...  good probability, we're will see...



it could go lower but i dont think so..

trog


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 15, 2019)

I sure hope the floor is 10k. However I have held mine for so long and been on the roller-coaster for so long that I don't really trust the floor. Nothing is for sure with BTC.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 16, 2019)

Well, Canada just implemented virtual currency regulations.  Guess bitcoin is officially legal there now.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 16, 2019)

must be nice having money to invest. i guess if i majored in nursing or computer science i would know that feeling. sadly I was optimistic about humanity and decided to be a teacher instead.  lulz. what an idiot i was.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jul 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> must be nice having money to invest. i guess if i majored in nursing or computer science i would know that feeling. sadly I was optimistic about humanity and decided to be a teacher instead.  lulz. what an idiot i was.



Truth.


----------



## yotano211 (Jul 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> must be nice having money to invest. i guess if i majored in nursing or computer science i would know that feeling. sadly I was optimistic about humanity and decided to be a teacher instead.  lulz. what an idiot i was.


My sister is a high school teacher and she has extra money to invest in. She lives within her means, and drives uber on the weekend for extra cash. Teachers dont get paid much for the type of education needed to become one but it's the benefits that matter more.


----------



## Metroid (Jul 16, 2019)

This is all a huge trap, they have been doing this to accumulate alt coins and then when they raise the bar, alt coins will be all time high x 10 to 50 times, they has been doing this for years and years hehe

Pay attention to end july, mid august, crypto in general will be very pumped, September/October another high.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 16, 2019)

Wall Street finds blockchain hard to tame after early euphoria
					

Two years ago Nasdaq Inc <NDAQ.O> and Citigroup Inc <C.N> announced a new blockchain system they said would make payments of private securities transactions more efficient. Nasdaq Chief Executive Adena Friedman called it "a milestone in the global financial sector."




					www.reuters.com
				





> NEW YORK (Reuters) - Two years ago Nasdaq Inc (NDAQ.O) and Citigroup Inc (C.N) announced a new blockchain system they said would make payments of private securities transactions more efficient. Nasdaq Chief Executive Adena Friedman called it “a milestone in the global financial sector.”
> 
> But the companies did not move forward with the project, a person familiar with it said, because while it worked in testing, the cost to fully adopt it outweighed the benefits.





> But a review of 33 projects involving large companies announced over the past four years and interviews with more than a dozen executives involved with them show the technology has yet to deliver on its promise.
> 
> At least a dozen of these projects, which involve major banks, exchanges and technology firms, have not gone beyond the testing phase, the review shows. Those that have made it past that stage are yet to see extensive usage.


A survey of companies dabbling in blockchain:








						Blockchain in the capital markets
					

Survey on the




					fingfx.thomsonreuters.com


----------



## trog100 (Jul 16, 2019)

well i was wrong about 10k being the bottom.. bitcoin has just jumped off a cliff and taken a $1000 dollar dive.. its now at $9600 -ish.. 

trog


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 16, 2019)

trog100 said:


> well i was wrong about 10k being the bottom.. bitcoin has just jumped off a cliff and taken a $1000 dollar dive.. its now at $9600 -ish..
> 
> trog


Don't worry too much Smart Investors rivet 2 together to make a yo yo because They prefer Playing with a Proper Bitcoin yo yo


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 16, 2019)

Bitcoin tumbles as U.S. senators grill Facebook on crypto plans
					

The cryptocurrency market took a beating on Tuesday with bitcoin losing over 10% in value after U.S. lawmakers grilled Facebook on its cryptocurrency plans, as political and regulatory scrutiny of digital coins intensifies.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 16, 2019)

Let's see how low we can go...


----------



## Space Lynx (Jul 16, 2019)

yakk said:


> Let's see how low we can go...



don't worry the corrupt chinese farmers who mined 60% of all bitcoin will make sure the price goes back, I am sure they have several fake accounts where they transfer millions back and forth all the time to build confidence in people at key locations.  good ol' non regulated financial enterprises.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Satoshi was the designer and he actually was pretty far from a crypto anarchist of today...  he didn't like the illicit uses, etc.  Even went on a brief rant when wikileaks started accepting bitcoin.  Shortly after he vanished completely.
> 
> Weird to think back on.  I really do think he left out of shame from his creations end product.


I think he realised it's affect and didn't want to be blamed personally.


----------



## trog100 (Jul 16, 2019)

i havnt a clue as to what or who drives crypto up or down.. i look for signs but never really see any..

i will just keep hodling along.. if trump is worried about it threatening the US dollar hegemony that in my view gives it credibility.. but who knows how it all ends..

trog

ps.. a fat finger maybe.. he he






						Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


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## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> don't worry the corrupt chinese farmers who mined 60% of all bitcoin will make sure the price goes back, I am sure they have several fake accounts where they transfer millions back and forth all the time to build confidence in people at key locations.  good ol' non regulated financial enterprises.



Don't follow too closely lately, but most of the recent rally was fueled by U.S. futures (commercial/institutional investors), seemingly not so much Asian or small individuals.  Looking at arbitrage opportunities, a lot of money seems to be exiting the market through Coinbase, a U.S. exchange.

Looks like mostly U.S. based activity lately I would say.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 16, 2019)

All I know is all my bills require USD payment and I don't foresee that changing any time soon, /shrug


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 16, 2019)

yakk said:


> ...a lot of money seems to be exiting the market through Coinbase, a U.S. exchange.


Which probably means it was connected to Facebook.  A lot of the surge over $10k was because of Facebook and now Facebook's ambitions are getting a reality slap in the face by politicians, regulators, and ratings profilers.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 16, 2019)

trog100 said:


> well i was wrong about 10k being the bottom.. bitcoin has just jumped off a cliff and taken a $1000 dollar dive.. its now at $9600 -ish..



Yup, don't bet stuff like that. Instead bet on the long term. If you look at the overall growth just this year the return has been sweet. A low of 3200 so even if you bought at 3200 you still have tripled your money. And that is why everyone says HODL because if you try to trade on the volatile daily, weekly trends you will probably go broke.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Which probably means it was connected to Facebook.  A lot of the surge over $10k was because of Facebook and now Facebook's ambitions are getting a reality slap in the face by politicians, regulators, and ratings profilers.



Why would facebook buy bitcoin or any of coinbases offerings?  That makes no logical sense, they are setting up their own fiat backed coin remember, not buying into the existing crypto ecosystem.

Sorry ford but that makes exactly 0 bit of sense.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 16, 2019)

Facebook coin(token) is really dumb and just a cash grab. They are trying to sell on hype, but Tether is already doing the exact thing they want to achieve, without the hype. The bigger issue here is Facebook is a publicly traded company. So if investors are willing to allow FB to start making crypto that will be the first publicly traded backed crypto. It is a real easy way to Add 1+Billion in Market Cap for FB which investors would love.

Lets say they make the coin worth $1USD and make 1 Billion Coins...even if no one is using them they can say that coin's market cap is 1 Billion USD and effectively add 1 Billion to FB stocks market cap. It is semi fraud honestly because it is not a market driven coin.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Why would facebook buy bitcoin or any of coinbases offerings?  That makes no logical sense, they are setting up their own fiat backed coin remember, not buying into the existing crypto ecosystem.
> 
> Sorry ford but that makes exactly 0 bit of sense.


People buying into crypto on the belief that Facebook getting involved adds legitimacy to them causing the market cap to rise.  A relatively easy way for a quick profit.  It turned into another pump & dump because regulators and politicians were quick to return fire.



ZenZimZaliben said:


> Facebook coin(token) is really dumb and just a cash grab. They are trying to sell on hype, but Tether is already doing the exact thing they want to achieve, without the hype. The bigger issue here is Facebook is a publicly traded company. So if investors are willing to allow FB to start making crypto that will be the first publicly traded backed crypto. It is a real easy way to Add 1+Billion in Market Cap for FB which investors would love.
> 
> Lets say they make the coin worth $1USD and make 1 Billion Coins...even if no one is using them they can say that coin's market cap is 1 Billion USD and effectively add 1 Billion to FB stocks market cap. It is semi fraud honestly because it is not a market driven coin.


Sounds like Steam Market.  Still don't fathom how that hasn't set regulator's pants ablaze.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Which probably means it was connected to Facebook.  A lot of the surge over $10k was because of Facebook and now Facebook's ambitions are getting a reality slap in the face by politicians, regulators, and ratings profilers.



Facebook's coin & bitcoin are at opposite ends of the spectrum (centralized fiat vs. decentralized hard money), but yeah it's certainly a tradable event even if it doesn't really make sense.  Could be what happened cause the rest of the world didn't really seem to follow.  It does setup bitcoin for some nice possible lows though, that's what is more interesting imo.


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## R-T-B (Jul 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It turned into another pump & dump because regulators and politicians were quick to return fire.



Responding to market or political conditions is not a "pump and dump."  That's standard rise and fall of a commodity.  A pump and dump is planned in advance.

That said, I do appreciate the clarification.  I thought you meant facebook inc was the sole buyer responsible for the rise...  obviously not the case.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Sounds like Steam Market. Still don't fathom how that hasn't set regulator's pants ablaze.



Because there's no withdrawal point for currency...  ie every dollar there is really just "store credit."  It isn't real true regulatable currency any more than a gift card or coupon.  It's arguably even less "real" than bitcoin.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> People buying into crypto on the belief that Facebook getting involved adds legitimacy to them causing the market cap to rise.  A relatively easy way for a quick profit.  It turned into another pump & dump because regulators and politicians were quick to return fire.
> 
> 
> Sounds like Steam Market.  Still don't fathom how that hasn't set regulator's pants ablaze.



On the hand I think humans get bored easily and wise up faster than analysts realize. Vast majority of people I suspect within a few years as has been trending up and up and up, will stop using facebook or slowly dwindle down to almost no usage time, or altogether delete it like I know a lot of people including myself did. Facebook is a ticking time bomb, give it 5 years, I predict once marketers realize they are having less impact than they realized it will crash hard. Or they use adblock/ublock/umatrix, etc.  Eventually the only market left will be very old people, and when the marketers finally realize this, it will all collapse. It's not there yet, but it will be someday, it's def trending that way.



R-T-B said:


> Responding to market or political conditions is not a "pump and dump."  That's standard rise and fall of a commodity.  A pump and dump is planned in advance.
> 
> That said, I do appreciate the clarification.  I thought you meant facebook inc was the sole buyer responsible for the rise...  obviously not the case.
> 
> ...



less real? bitcoin doesn't pay my bills, and when I go to get a loan the agencies sure as heck are not checking my bitcoin credit score. bitcoin has no way to punish people for being bad, no government oversight to enforce it even if it did exist. if you truly believe bitcoin is the future you might as well believe in full on lawless society, everything requires stability and and rule of law that mostly works, even if its not perfect, it hasn't collapsed yet.


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## moproblems99 (Jul 17, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> On the hand I think humans get bored easily and wise up faster than analysts realize. Vast majority of people I suspect within a few years as has been trending up and up and up, will stop using facebook or slowly dwindle down to almost no usage time, or altogether delete it like I know a lot of people including myself did. Facebook is a ticking time bomb, give it 5 years, I predict once marketers realize they are having less impact than they realized it will crash hard. Or they use adblock/ublock/umatrix, etc.  Eventually the only market left will be very old people, and when the marketers finally realize this, it will all collapse. It's not there yet, but it will be someday, it's def trending that way.
> 
> 
> 
> less real? bitcoin doesn't pay my bills, and when I go to get a loan the agencies sure as heck are not checking my bitcoin credit score. bitcoin has no way to punish people for being bad, no government oversight to enforce it even if it did exist. if you truly believe bitcoin is the future you might as well believe in full on lawless society, everything requires stability and and rule of law that mostly works, even if its not perfect, it hasn't collapsed yet.



I don't think you can pay your bills with steam market either...


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## Space Lynx (Jul 17, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I don't think you can pay your bills with steam market either...



that wasn't my point, but thanks for understanding context. lulz.

bit off topic - https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/17/investing/united-states-debt-risks/index.html  apparently USA is 71 trillion in debt...


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## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 17, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> bitcoin doesn't pay my bills, and when I go to get a loan the agencies sure as heck are not checking my bitcoin credit score. bitcoin has no way to punish people for being bad, no government oversight to enforce it even if it did exist. if you truly believe bitcoin is the future you might as well believe in full on lawless society, everything requires stability and and rule of law that mostly works, even if its not perfect, it hasn't collapsed yet.



You can use bitcoin as collateral for loans at many banks.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 17, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> You can use bitcoin as collateral for loans at many banks.



It doesn't matter anyway, I go to work I come home, currencies might change, but that won't.  Enjoy your riches.


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## moproblems99 (Jul 17, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> that wasn't my point, but thanks for understanding context. lulz.
> 
> bit off topic - https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/17/investing/united-states-debt-risks/index.html  apparently USA is 71 trillion in debt...



Maybe you didn't understand what rtb said then.


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## Deleted member 158293 (Jul 17, 2019)

Wow, at least one person in the U.S. Congress is understanding Bitcoin & Libra quite well at the Libra hearings...  all officially documented too:


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## Space Lynx (Jul 18, 2019)

I mean technically speaking, China knows everything about each of their citizens, and I mean everything. They just don't share that information. Maybe those in Hong Kong a little less so.  Regardless, if it is indeed true that 60-70% of all currently mined Bitcoins were mined in China, then there is indeed a possibility China could manipulate the Chinese exchanges, mass confiscation, or other shady means I can't think of to act as a central agent for or against Bitcoin.

A very unlikely scenario, but it is is possible from my estimation, they know ever site you visit, China probably has a list of everyone that has ever downloaded a BTC wallet even, I mean they restrict travel based on your social media credit score... so yeah they know.  

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 20k price rise last year was based on China creating propaganda in some places. They like to have fun with it. Oh we are banning it, oh wait nah we changed are mind.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 18, 2019)

yakk said:


> Wow, at least one person in the U.S. Congress is understanding Bitcoin & Libra quite well at the Libra hearings...  all officially documented too:


That was both interesting and impressive. I predict congress is going to tell Facebook to stuff it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 18, 2019)

Stuff it?  I think they'll tell Facebook to move it to a separate company with a controlling stake so it's easier to regulate.  Anything dealing in crypto financial assets shouldn't also be a publicly traded company: it exposes investors to too much risk.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 18, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Stuff it?  I think they'll tell Facebook to move it to a separate company with a controlling stake so it's easier to regulate.


I think you misunderstand what FB is trying. They don't want to get in on the bitcoin action, they want to create one of their own which they alone can control. This is the problem at hand.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 18, 2019)

G7 urges tough Libra regulation, agrees to tax digital giants
					

Digital currencies such as Facebook's planned Libra raise serious concerns and must be regulated as tightly as possible to ensure they do not upset the world's financial system, Group of Seven finance ministers and central bankers said on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


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## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> that wasn't my point,



No, but it was mine.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 18, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> No, but it was mine.




cool, enjoy your riches, I could care less about any of this anymore


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## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> cool, enjoy your riches, I could care less about any of this anymore



I don't have any riches to care about, but you quoted my point and butchered it is all I'm saying. 

Crypto isn't my game at all.  Can't afford it.



lexluthermiester said:


> they want to create one of their own which they alone can control. This is the problem at hand.



Really how is that different from VISA, mastercard, or paypal?

They are all backed by currencies.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 18, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I don't have any riches to care about, but you quoted my point and butchered it is all I'm saying.
> 
> Crypto isn't my game at all.  Can't afford it.



I guess I don't understand then, because I am only responding to bottom part of your argument where you say the dollar is less real. I disagree, if I fail to pay my student loans I will be taken to court and my wages garnished, if I don't show up to court the cops will find me, if I want to buy a house someday I need to qualify for loans, etc. The IRS has a tight lid on everything and they actually do catch a lot of people if not the majority of people who cheat on their taxes. The dollar has value because of all of this, there is a reward and punishment system that is enforced, and for the most part it does work. With Crypto that would never exist, even if it did it would be in the form of bounty hunters, and that is pure lawlessness and setting us back centuries on human protections, like debtors jail, etc. The dollar is real and does have value, because it is controlled, and even hedge fund billionaires don't get away with everything, they get away with a lot more than the common man, but so far the system does work, even if we do hate those scumbags on wall street in 2008 who destroyed everything and walked away scott free, its much like the argument for Democracy - when obama said its the best we have, but its not perfect as a system of government, any other option really leads to instability. this gives the dollar value, albeit if Congress doesn't control spending and soon, it could all collapse and Bitcoin and lawlessness could be the future, heck if I know. I used to care, but I don't anymore, I been mountain biking almost daily here lately, taking on healthier hobbies is the best way to go in life is my advice to everyone, the noise of the world will never change, but the value of the dollar is there for now.

i wasn't responding to your top part of the quote, only the comment on the dollar not having any value. it does have value because of the rule of law.


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## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I guess I don't understand then, because I am only responding to bottom part of your argument where you say the dollar is less real.



I never said the dollar is less real.  I said steam wallet dollars are.  They are really just "disney dollars."


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## Metroid (Jul 18, 2019)

I have been in the crypto market for 10 years already and I can say that this is the beginning of mass adoption, as soon as scalability is increased next year to millions of transactions per 15 seconds with eth then we will see very very low transaction fees, $0.1 and less. That will be the day credit/debit cards will die.


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## dorsetknob (Jul 18, 2019)

Metroid said:


> I can say that this is the beginning of mass adoption, as soon as scalability is increased next year to millions of transactions per 15 seconds with eth then we will see very very low transaction fees, $0.1 and less. That will be the day credit/debit cards will die.


laughing out loud
Crypto is too volatile!!
most people (myself included ) when they pay for something like to know that the price they pay is fixed and final........
not subject to the ever fluctuating market

Nearest example i can give is
Buying items using a CC while  in a foreign country and finding out 3 months later you been stiffed with high exchange rates and other fee's.


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## Metroid (Jul 18, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> laughing out loud
> Crypto is too volatile!!
> most people (myself included ) when they pay for something like to know that the price they pay is fixed and final........
> not subject to the ever fluctuating market
> ...



Don't know about you but I was never scammed in anyway doing online shopping, exchange rate is at that time, is fixed, if price crashes or rises 100% in the next second, you have nothing to do with it. You might check how bitpay works, although is not perfect and they charge 1% from the online store you bought. That 1% bitpay charges will be reduced to very very low as soon as scalability is increased. SEC will be September now, as soon as that is done, many other things will follow.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Jul 18, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> cool, enjoy your riches, I could care less about any of this anymore



So not sure why you continue to come back in here. I feel like maybe you had the opportunity to buy BTC, seriously considered it, and took a pass and are now a little jaded. Not saying you are rude or mean just it sure seems to rub a sore spot. Or were you the one that lost a HDD with BTC on it?


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## Space Lynx (Jul 18, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> So not sure why you continue to come back in here. I feel like maybe you had the opportunity to buy BTC, seriously considered it, and took a pass and are now a little jaded. Not saying you are rude or mean just it sure seems to rub a sore spot. Or were you the one that lost a HDD with BTC on it?



Because I get this little red dot on TPU that says you have a notification, and I respond, regardless of thread. I had like 0.00001 BTC in 2012 before I formatted the hard drive, didn't really lose anything.

Visa and Mastercard protect me from theft, slow bank transfers of money protect me from identity theft, I don't want fast. Enjoy your BTC. The Credit Card companies are here to stay, they offer protection for consumers that crypto can never offer.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 18, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Really how is that different from VISA, mastercard, or paypal?
> 
> They are all backed by currencies.


*Closely and strictly regulated* currencies. That's the difference. If I have to choose between a government who ultimately answers to the public and a corporation that answers to it's own agenda and generally greedy shareholders, I'll choose the government every time. Facebook is in no way qualified to exclusively regulate a currency.


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## trog100 (Jul 19, 2019)

i think government is bought and paid for by the very same corporations that answer to their own agenda and shareholders..  the only thing we have here is potential competition to the corrupt self serving entity we now call government.. 

trog


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## Space Lynx (Jul 19, 2019)

trog100 said:


> i think government is bought and paid for by the very same corporations that answer to their own agenda and shareholders..  the only thing we have here is potential competition to the corrupt self serving entity we now call government..
> 
> trog



to a degree, but never has that been true fully.  also quite a few people who won congress seats recently accepted no corporate donors, and most running for 2020 President on Democratic side also are refusing PAC money and corporate donors this round.  Things can change and are changing.


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## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> *Closely and strictly regulated* currencies.



Paypal isn't much more strictly regulated than the libra, which would certainly also fall under money transmission licensing laws the same way.  I actually doubt they are monitored differently at all.



lexluthermiester said:


> If I have to choose between a government who ultimately answers to the public and a corporation that answers to it's own agenda and generally greedy shareholders, I'll choose the government every time.



You aren't though when you choose paypal or mastercard or VISA...  you are really using a companies virtual currency on a card backed by the same native currency...  exactly what libra is proposing.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 19, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Paypal isn't much more strictly regulated than the libra, which would certainly also fall under money transmission licensing laws the same way.  I actually doubt they are monitored differently at all.
> 
> 
> 
> You aren't though when you choose paypal or mastercard or VISA...  you are really using a companies virtual currency on a card backed by the same native currency...  exactly what libra is proposing.



But I have no reason not to trust Mastercard or Visa, unlike Libra.  I had a couple issues with retailers about 5 years ago even and Mastercard sided with me and backed me up, and my Mastercard provided me with free car insurance when renting a car.  I understand the line of logic you are following, but it is misguided, Visa and Mastercard are different beasts because they have been ingrained in so many peoples lives, they would be held accountable. people already trust them. the IRS holds them accountable. 

also @trog100 https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...-infamous-ex-pharma-ceo-quickly-loses-appeal/  big pharma runs the country though right?  and Purdue family who owns the company selling all the opiods, finally busted and banished from all over the world, no one politically would ever dare take money from them now.  things are changing and will always change, hopefully for the better.  yeah it's not perfect, but it's also not black and white like you suggest.


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## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> But I have no reason not to trust Mastercard or Visa, unlike Libra.



I agree.  Facebook is hardly a really trustworthy group.  But since they are truly being regulated the same as the above and probably being watched closer I see little room for actual funny business.  Of course no one has to trust them.  That is their battle.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 19, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I agree.  Facebook is hardly a really trustworthy group.  But since they are truly being regulated the same as the above and probably being watched closer I see little room for actual funny business.  Of course no one has to trust them.  That is their battle.



True, I agree with that. The only argument I would make against that is companies like Mastercard and Visa don't literally have access to every single facet of your life as say Google or Facebook, oh sure I know they still buy a lot of data on us, but will never come close to the level of information facebook knows about us, I fear there will come a day when a facebook actually has the human brain completely figured out and can manipulate people to do things against their will, I have met a lot of dumb people living in Indiana, it wouldn't be hard to do even with the information they have now, so an advert with the right message as someone logs into facebook for Libra... Facebook knows what they are doing even if regulated. Honestly though, the older I get the more libertarian I become, so I could care less if this becomes a currency or not


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## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> True, I agree with that. The only argument I would make against that is companies like Mastercard and Visa don't literally have access to every single facet of your life as say Google or Facebook, oh sure I know they still buy a lot of data on us, but will never come close to the level of information facebook knows about us, I fear there will come a day when a facebook actually has the human brain completely figured out and can manipulate people to do things against their will, I have met a lot of dumb people living in Indiana, it wouldn't be hard to do even with the information they have now, so an advert with the right message as someone logs into facebook for Libra... Facebook knows what they are doing even if regulated. Honestly though, the older I get the more libertarian I become, so I could care less if this becomes a currency or not



I'm actually really in the same boat as you.  People see me as pro crypto but I'm really not.  I just see where the cards fall pretty well in regards to their inherent strengths and weaknesses.  Crypto is definitely best treated as a disposable money game at this point in time, and if there's one thing you and I have in common, it's no money and enough education and experience to know what really matters at the end of the day (hint, not material riches).  Be grateful for that at least.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 19, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I'm actually really in the same boat as you.  People see me as pro crypto but I'm really not.  I just see where the cards fall pretty well in regards to their inherent strengths and weaknesses.  Crypto is definitely best treated as a disposable money game at this point in time, and if there's one thing you and I have in common, it's no money and enough education and experience to know what really matters at the end of the day (hint, not material riches).  Be grateful for that at least.




yep, my Uncle came up on some money around ten years ago and bought himself a top of the line Ford pickup trick for around 65 grand. then he turns around a few years later and is eating bologna sandwiches cause he couldn't control his spending. lot of people like that where I live. my car only cost 3 grand used, and it will last the same amount of mileage as his, while saving me gas.  everything in life is about perspective, once you master it, the rest is noise. oh you live in a nice house? congrats, it's a bigger box than mine. lol

though I do admit, it would be nice to have a swimming pool in this heat, can't even go to public pool to swim, it's literally shoulder to shoulder always so busy, and I want to swim laps for health reasons too.  I suppose if I ever make a little more money than I do now that is probably the only thing I would splurge on long term, but only if it was within my means, other than that I am happy with my life the way it is, don't see money really making it better, even if my car died and I lost my job tomorrow I wouldn't panic, I would just start bike riding like I did when I was in Europe, healthier anyway.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 19, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Paypal isn't much more strictly regulated than the libra, which would certainly also fall under money transmission licensing laws the same way.  I actually doubt they are monitored differently at all.
> 
> You aren't though when you choose paypal or mastercard or VISA...  you are really using a companies virtual currency on a card backed by the same native currency...  exactly what libra is proposing.


While those points have merit, Libra isn't a real thing yet. And Facebook just got done being effectively beotch-slapped by the government for their wrong doing. Zuck was within spitting distance of being brought up on criminal charges for allowing things to get so out of control. You think they would learn.


lynx29 said:


> But I have no reason not to trust Mastercard or Visa


This. Have to agree fully. Visa, MC, Paypal and others are strictly regulated in a way that insures that they can not easy screw over the public.


R-T-B said:


> I agree. Facebook is hardly a really trustworthy group. But since they are truly being regulated the same as the above and probably being watched closer I see little room for actual funny business. Of course no one has to trust them. That is their battle.


True, but therein lays the problem; Why trust them? They have a proven track record of untrustworthy behavior, why would the government allow them a venue of trust when they don't have to? It would be like giving a thief a job at a bank and expecting nothing to go wrong.


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## trog100 (Jul 19, 2019)

we have negative or near negative interest rates.. we lend a bank money to gamble with for free.. does this make any sense.. no it dosnt..

if the bank gets in trouble they will take your money to get out of trouble..  governments are trying to do away with cash money and make it all digital or in other words force you to lend the banks money whether you want to or not.. they can and will use the same argument to get rid of cash money as they use against crypto.. criminals use it..

after negative interest rates comes minus negative rates "zirp" .. this will cost you money to lend the banks your money.. crypto or an alternative money not totally controlled by governments and banks is what the game is all about..

its a mistake to trust governments or banks with your money.. they will both bleed you dry to stay in business..

the US is 21 trillion in debt with talk of another 21 trillion not showing in the books.. you cant see the books because its now been declared a national security issue..

faith in the dollar is faith misplaced.. its worth what they say it is.. the rich are swapping dollars for real assets or things that will hold their value when the dollar and other fiat currencies tank as they surely will..

gold silver and bitcoin are kinds of money that will hold value as fiat tanks.. stocks and shares are not real assets their value will go down with the dollar..

they talk about a reset.. which basically means a default on all this unplayable debt.. overnight the dollar could be halved in value.. but ether way things cannot keep going as they are.. some kind of change is coming.. something the anti crypto brigade do not seem aware of..

who owns all this debt.. no f-cker they all owe each other.. one large default will bring the lot down..

there is something called modern monetary theory.. this says there is no problem all we have to do is create enough digital money to keep paying for whatever we need to pay for.. i dont see a deal of sanity in this theory but it seems popular.. he he


trog


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## Space Lynx (Jul 19, 2019)

trog100 said:


> we have negative or near negative interest rates.. we lend a bank money to gamble with for free.. does this make any sense.. no it dosnt..
> 
> if the bank gets in trouble they will take your money to get out of trouble..  governments are trying to do away with cash money and make it all digital or in other words force you to lend the banks money whether you want to or not.. they can and will use the same argument to get rid of cash money as they use against crypto.. criminals use it..
> 
> ...



I mean France hasn't had a net positive income in 70 years or more, and they haven't collapsed yet. I hope you are in it for the long haul. lol


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## moproblems99 (Jul 19, 2019)

trog100 said:


> gold silver and bitcoin are kinds of money that will hold value as fiat tanks.. stocks and shares are not real assets their value will go down with the dollar..



Bitcoin will go with the dollar. Gold and silver will survive.  When the dollar/fiat dies, food,water,shelter, and guns will be of value.  Anything that support those will be of value.  The collapse of society will be far worse than presociety because people didn't know what they didn't have.  Take away modern Life now...yeah.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 5, 2019)

The main advantage of cryptocurrencies is about to vanish:








						Fed to develop real-time payments system for launch in 2023 or 2024
					

The U.S. Federal Reserve announced on Monday it planned to develop its own round-the-clock real-time payments and settlement service, with an expected launch in 2023 or 2024.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The main advantage of cryptocurrencies is about to vanish:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Main advantage?  The main advantage is cross border payments.  "Realtime" isn't even on cryptos feature list (transactions take a bit to clear).

It's pretty amusing watching you continue to attempt to criticize something you have absolutely no understanding of.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 5, 2019)

Crypto takes hours versus days in the clearing house system inter-bank transfers occur through now.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 5, 2019)

I don't want faster transfer times, slower protects me from identity fraud.  Also, when I was abroad in Europe it only took 3 business days to transfer my money using Transferwise between two nations bank accounts, I had 0 issues with waiting 3 days. 

Main thing hurting Crypto is it will always just be gold not currency. I think it is currently overvalued, but still more valuable than actual gold due to the open blockchain and easier way of buying stuff with it compared to gold. I highly doubt my future paycheck will be in Bitcoin, 99.99% of human population rely on banks backed government protections. I might be a new car soon, guess who is loaning me the money? Some bank that makes sure I played by the rules and pay my bills on time by checking credit agencies before they let me borrow said money. It's not a perfect system, but it tends to work for the vast majority of people and overall flow.

I won't be buying any, and I bet 99.99% of the human population won't either.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 5, 2019)

You can argue that nothing is hurting crypto.  The people using it now pretty much have what they need.  The only people that think crypto is hurting is those who don't understand, don't use it because it doesn't meet their needs, or don't want it around.  Crypto can not progress another inch and still do what it needs.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Crypto takes hours versus days in the clearing house system inter-bank transfers occur through now.



Point:  It isn't instant and no one really cares about the speed vs other benefits, otherwise we'd just use paypal.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Point:  It isn't instant and no one really cares about the speed vs other benefits, otherwise we'd just use paypal.



oddly enough i do use paypal.. pretty much everything i buy is paid for via paypal.. one thing i very rarely use is actual cash.. 

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 5, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Point:  It isn't instant and no one really cares about the speed vs other benefits, otherwise we'd just use paypal.


PayPal settles debts with their own funds.  PayPal has to wait days for transactions to actually clear too.

The only advantage of non-real time payments is that there's time to dispute it/stop it before it clears.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 5, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> PayPal settles debts with their own funds. PayPal has to wait days for transactions to actually clear too.



Difference to the end user is almost nill.



trog100 said:


> oddly enough i do use paypal.. pretty much everything i buy is paid for via paypal.. one thing i very rarely use is actual cash..
> 
> trog



I do too.  I have a feeling a lot of crypto users do.  Which is sort of my point:  Cryptos use case has never been speed.  It's nearly irrelevant.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 10, 2019)

Now that the IRS in USA is pushing out letters making sure you report how much Bitcoin you have or have had, I wonder if they will be taking a good look at marketplace sellers who use Bitcoin, like newegg, and forcing newegg to show all large transactions made with bitcoin, etc. One way or another the IRS will be getting their money, I have no doubt about it, might take them a few years to catch up, but yeah.

Some Bitcoin owners are going to be labeled similar to stock market traders and forced to pay the same tax those traders pay at 37% rate.

_“The IRS is going to argue that someone who trades frequently and at high volume will be subject to get the ordinary tax rate at 37 percent,” Speiss says. “Traders need to be careful.”_









						IRS means business when it comes to bitcoin
					

In my last column, I reported that the IRS is going after people who trade bitcoin and other virtual currencies — and didn’t bother to pay tax on their gains. In fact, I’m told the IRS sent out 10,…




					nypost.com
				




My advice to any of who have more than 1kin Bitcoin value, report with the IRS, play by the rules, you don't want to end up like this guy:









						Wesley Snipes finishes prison time for tax evasion
					

He's under house arrest until July.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 10, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> PayPal settles debts with their own funds. PayPal has to wait days for transactions to actually clear too.



I have really been trying to figure out what relevance this has.  5 days later, still thinking.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 10, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I have really been trying to figure out what relevance this has.  5 days later, still thinking.



I think he was responding to me when I said one of the main benefits of slower transactions is protection from identity theft, and I do not like that crypto does everything instantly because it is easier for a criminal to do a smash and grab robbery of someone. This is why I prefer to keep my money in the bank.

I think he was responding to me anyway, not sure.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 10, 2019)

When you buy something using PayPal, PayPal does many things:
1) it starts the process of transferring money with the underlying bank (credit card, debit, or direct)
2) once the process has been confirmed (bank replies that the account is valid and the requested transaction is now pending), PayPal moves the agreed to sum from the payer account at PayPal to the payee account at PayPal
3) the funds (which are actually PayPal's because the actual bank-bank transfer hasn't completed yet) are available for immediate withdrawal.
4) once the funds clear (usually three days) from the bank-bank transfer, PayPal keeps the funds.

PayPal gives the illusion of speed because it's PayPal's funds being exchanged.  The only reason why I know they're masking the ACH transactions is because if you try to remove bank account information immediately after requesting a transfer of money to/from it, PayPal forbids it until it clears.

TL;DR: As far as banks are concerned, everyone is debiting or crediting PayPal Inc. which allows PayPal to be much quicker than the banking system is naturally (they start both transactions using their own funds to settle both debts simultaneously).


Credit card companies do the same thing: when you buy something, you're actually spending the underlying bank's money, not your own. You settle your debt with the crediting bank monthly or interest is applied for lending you the money.


Cryptocurrencies are relatively fast because the public ledger effectively is the bank and the clearinghouse simutaneously.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 10, 2019)

a huge amount of money must flow through paypal..  ultimately in the grand scheme of things this must give it a lot of power.. 

i never take money out of it i just leave it there ready for my next online purchase.. in times gone past i have had as much as £40000 sat in it.. i know its not legally a bank but i tend to treat it as such.. 

its a pretty remarkable entity.. near world wide instant payment.. its for sure changed the world even though we dont hear much about it.. 

trog


----------



## killster1 (Aug 12, 2019)

trog100 said:


> a huge amount of money must flow through paypal..  ultimately in the grand scheme of things this must give it a lot of power..
> 
> i never take money out of it i just leave it there ready for my next online purchase.. in times gone past i have had as much as £40000 sat in it.. i know its not legally a bank but i tend to treat it as such..
> 
> ...


40,000 in paypal? you have ever heard of paypal freezing accounts? i guess if you never sell anything maybe its not a risk? i guess depending how fast you spend you would be better off getting 5% interest on your funds in a online bank.

personally i never leave money in paypal  i have had friends who's accounts have been frozen and it took what seemed like a big battle to get it back. i put all my money into buying land in developing countries im betting on it being more than 5% return.    i think i have around 1 bitcoin from when ever bitcoin first started and i mined like crazy, used to buy more coins and computer hardware with litecoins. i wonder how much that wallet has in it. i purposely have not checked just for fun to see what happens. // checks litecoin price. 88 each.. hmmmm


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 12, 2019)

killster1 said:


> 40,000 in paypal? you have ever heard of paypal freezing accounts? i guess if you never sell anything maybe its not a risk? i guess depending how fast you spend you would be better off getting 5% interest on your funds in a online bank.
> 
> personally i never leave money in paypal  i have had friends who's accounts have been frozen and it took what seemed like a big battle to get it back. i put all my money into buying land in developing countries im betting on it being more than 5% return.    i think i have around 1 bitcoin from when ever bitcoin first started and i mined like crazy, used to buy more coins and computer hardware with litecoins. i wonder how much that wallet has in it. i purposely have not checked just for fun to see what happens. // checks litecoin price. 88 each.. hmmmm



5% returns? what bank you using? my bank only gives me like 0.15% interest rate return on savings LOL -- even if I open a CD its only around 2-3% returns over 5 years.  5% is a bit unheard of these days.


----------



## aQi (Aug 12, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> Was in my local Town this morning and spotted a Street Begger with Sign saying
> " will Accept Bitcoin"



Ha ha ha ha this is getting way too normalised.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 12, 2019)

killster1 said:


> 40,000 in paypal? you have ever heard of paypal freezing accounts? i guess if you never sell anything maybe its not a risk? i guess depending how fast you spend you would be better off getting 5% interest on your funds in a online bank.
> 
> personally i never leave money in paypal  i have had friends who's accounts have been frozen and it took what seemed like a big battle to get it back. i put all my money into buying land in developing countries im betting on it being more than 5% return.    i think i have around 1 bitcoin from when ever bitcoin first started and i mined like crazy, used to buy more coins and computer hardware with litecoins. i wonder how much that wallet has in it. i purposely have not checked just for fun to see what happens. // checks litecoin price. 88 each.. hmmmm



i did have paypal freeze my account.. it rang their money laundering bells... 

it caused major problems until it was sorted.. after that i assumed they would trust me more with some money in my account.. he he

trog


----------



## killster1 (Aug 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> 5% returns? what bank you using? my bank only gives me like 0.15% interest rate return on savings LOL -- even if I open a CD its only around 2-3% returns over 5 years.  5% is a bit unheard of these days.


The key to my statement was ONLINE BANK! i did a quick search and see some 2.2% right off the bat with a 5% but only on the first 5,000..


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 12, 2019)

trog100 said:


> i did have paypal freeze my account.. it rang their money laundering bells...
> 
> it caused major problems until it was sorted.. after that i assumed they would trust me more with some money in my account.. he he
> 
> trog



I would recommend you just put that money into a 5 year CD or something instead, 100% safe and you gain 2-3% interest.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I would recommend you just put that money into a 5 year CD or something instead, 100% safe and you gain 2-3% interest.



the 40k in paypal was a few years back  when i was running a small business.. i dont have it any more.. he he

but i do own (hodle) some gold some silver and some crypto.. not much but enough to keep me interested in how prices move..  i would have to be in dire straights before i sold any of it..

both banks and government are looking to a cashless society and negative interest rates.. negatives interest rates mean you pay them for the privilege and lending them money.. its important to own something outside the system..

one important thing is i dont owe any f-cker anything.. all i have i own for real..

trog


----------



## juiseman (Aug 12, 2019)

That is a lot of money in pay pal.....but you should probably move it out now that you have advertised your balance. 
I would anyhow. Maybe that's just me; I guess my belief that if someone wants something bad enough; usually
they find a way to get it.....hackers included.

That being said; one time my pay pal card got skimmed at a gas station. And
Pay Pal was very quick and helpful to get my money back. The girl on the phone was really 
nice and sounded kind of hot. So she was very nice to talk too as well as helpful......

EDIT: oh good.....


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 12, 2019)

that's fair enough trog, while I don't agree with you fully, I do agree no one should have a monopoly on anything, even if the abuse of power does not happen for twenty years, eventually that kind of power will cause abuse, so I agree, diversity is best. If I ever get enough money to invest in something I probably will do  a little gold, its 100% stable price wise, and as satellites and special NASA stuff, plus India, Japan, all countries of the world entering the space race, I foresee the price of gold steadily going up over next 50 years, sure other metals work, but when it comes to deep space technology, gold is still king.


----------



## killster1 (Aug 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> that's fair enough trog, while I don't agree with you fully, I do agree no one should have a monopoly on anything, even if the abuse of power does not happen for twenty years, eventually that kind of power will cause abuse, so I agree, diversity is best. If I ever get enough money to invest in something I probably will do  a little gold, its 100% stable price wise, and as satellites and special NASA stuff, plus India, Japan, all countries of the world entering the space race, I foresee the price of gold steadily going up over next 50 years, sure other metals work, but when it comes to deep space technology, gold is still king.


but you can make gold  i think its cool to invest in metals but someday they will all be synthetic no? Invest in a sweatshop would be my dream and pay everyone double what the other ones around are paying.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 12, 2019)

I suppose that is a risk, synthetic metals probably are the future. I actually had forgotten about that. Well it doesn't matter, I will never have enough money to actually be able to invest anyway, lol


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 15, 2019)

CipherTrace says $3.1 billion may have been stolen at cryptocurrency exchanges in 2019
					

Judging by the latest Cryptocurrency Anti-Money Laundering report by security research firm CipherTrace, crypto criminals are likely to loot an estimated total of $4.3 billion in crypto...




					www.techspot.com
				




_CipherTrace says $3.1 billion may have been stolen at cryptocurrency exchanges in 2019
Couple in misappropriated funds and it adds up to a staggering $4.3 billion_


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2019)

Bitcoin is at 9500 now... lost $800 or so in last 12 hours.  hmm, something to watch, but I expect it will correct itself as 10k seems to be the new stable.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Aug 29, 2019)

good time to buy...maybe.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> good time to buy...maybe.



there doesn't seem to be much risk anymore, governments of the world seem to be embracing it / regulating it and it still has an advantage over gold in that it can be used worldwide instantly... so I don't know where I stand on it anymore. I was thinking maybe buying $700 worth of a partial coin, and if it goes up great maybe I can get a free Playstation 5 if it goes up enough, but if it crashes then oh well was a risk but still not too much lost.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 29, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> there doesn't seem to be much risk anymore, governments of the world seem to be embracing it / regulating it and it still has an advantage over gold in that it can be used worldwide instantly... so I don't know where I stand on it anymore. I was thinking maybe buying $700 worth of a partial coin, and if it goes up great maybe I can get a free Playstation 5 if it goes up enough, but if it crashes then oh well was a risk but still not too much lost.



long term it has to go up so does gold.. 

if you want to buy something just for fun.. silver may be the best buy.. 

trog


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Aug 30, 2019)

trog100 said:


> long term it has to go up so does gold..
> 
> if you want to buy something just for fun.. silver may be the best buy..
> 
> trog



IDK I think buying some satoshi might be better. If you buy some every month eventually you will have a full coin.


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 30, 2019)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> IDK I think buying some satoshi might be better. If you buy some every month eventually you will have a full coin.



How much does one coin weigh when you hold it? I have heard they just sit there and vibrate in your hand. Lightly yet violently all the same time.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Sep 3, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> How much does one coin weigh when you hold it? I have heard they just sit there and vibrate in your hand. Lightly yet violently all the same time.



Electron Mass of a Bitcoin is around  8.296432*10-25 oz  LOL


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 12, 2019)

So Libra (Facebook cryptocurrency) caused cryptocurrency values to soar a while back.  Then PayPal quit:








						PayPal becomes first member to exit Facebook's Libra Association
					

U.S. payments processor PayPal Holdings Inc <PYPL.O> said on Friday it was leaving Libra Association, the entity managing the Facebook-led effort to build global digital currency Libra, making it the first member to exit the group.




					www.reuters.com
				




Now Ebay, Mastercard, Visa, and Stripe are quitting:








						Facebook's Libra currency abandoned by major financial companies
					

Facebook Inc's ambitious efforts to establish a global digital currency called Libra suffered severe setbacks on Friday, as major payment companies including Mastercard and Visa Inc quit the group behind the project.




					www.reuters.com
				





> The latest exodus could be particularly problematic, as it includes all major payments companies that were founding members of the project.


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 12, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> So Libra (Facebook cryptocurrency) caused cryptocurrency values to soar a while back.  Then PayPal quit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yep, I love this.  just read it myself here https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50023008

zuckerbaby is going to be crying a river this weekend


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 12, 2019)

Off topic but Silver is indeed the best fun "precious" thing to buy because you can get decent sized bars cheaply and then throw them at your brother when he's being irritating.

True story.  Only I was the victim and thank god a troy ounce isn't much.


----------



## sepheronx (Oct 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Off topic but Silver is indeed the best fun "precious" thing to buy because you can get decent sized bars cheaply and then throw them at your brother when he's being irritating.
> 
> True story.  Only I was the victim and thank god a troy ounce isn't much.



Do you feel like some kind of rich Aristocrat when you throw the silver bullions at your brother?

I buy lots of it.  It is a very undervalued metal.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 12, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> Do you feel like some kind of rich Aristocrat when you throw the silver bullions at your brother?
> 
> I buy lots of it.  It is a very undervalued metal.



He probably does.


----------



## moproblems99 (Oct 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Off topic but Silver is indeed the best fun "precious" thing to buy because you can get decent sized bars cheaply and then throw them at your brother when he's being irritating.
> 
> True story.  Only I was the victim and thank god a troy ounce isn't much.



What size hardware wallet holds a troy oz? 64 GB?


----------



## potato580+ (Oct 12, 2019)

one of my office employ once wanna to trade for my stuff with btc etherum, i said what?! am not to be meany or somthing, it just btc have no value on my country


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 12, 2019)

potato580+ said:


> one of my office employ once wanna to trade for my stuff with btc etherum, i said what?! am not to be meany or somthing, it just btc have no value on my country



What country and how much?

There are people who'll find a way to get you money for it if it's a significant amount, but I doubt it is.


----------



## potato580+ (Oct 12, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> What country and how much?
> 
> There are people who'll find a way to get you money for it if it's a significant amount, but I doubt it is.


am stay at jakartea indonesia, its consider illegal for any btc transaction here, almost gov authorty keep an eye on it, well still they were few peep still doing it and exchange through external party, i know nothing abt the btc, as i said just exchange it first then give me the real cash, just for info, btc could be slacky, my friend once get scammed invest on btc neighbour country p**d* coin, from the first try he gain such lot profit, and bark abt how easy to gain cash(seriously without do nothing?) before the chaos begun, dont know i should pity him or laughing, anyway i censored the country for avoid any missunderstding, thats why i assumed btc is no value for me (personally), am not againts btc user, it just not suit me, dont get mad okey


----------



## vectoravtech (Oct 17, 2019)

potato580+ said:


> one of my office employ once wanna to trade for my stuff with btc etherum, i said what?! am not to be meany or somthing, it just btc have no value on my country


I haven't heard of that from any of my other friends, interesting


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Oct 29, 2019)

Bitcoin reached 1.2 billion USD dollars in transactions on block 601424, that be a decent bit of coin for 1 block.  Seems like a sharp increase in high value blocks lately.


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 29, 2019)

yakk said:


> Bitcoin reached 1.2 billion USD dollars in transactions on block 601424, that be a decent bit of coin for 1 block.  Seems like a sharp increase in high value blocks lately.




jeff bezos wipes his butt with 1.2 billion. lol.  healthcare will cost 30 trillion over next decade.

bitcoin is peasant money as far as government and actual rich people are concerned.


----------



## moproblems99 (Oct 29, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> jeff bezos wipes his butt with 1.2 billion. lol.  healthcare will cost 30 trillion over next decade.
> 
> bitcoin is peasant money as far as government and actual rich people are concerned.



And?


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 29, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> And?




and I left this thread a long time ago, I don't understand why I keep getting notifications


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 30, 2019)

yakk said:


> Bitcoin reached 1.2 billion USD dollars in transactions on block 601424, that be a decent bit of coin for 1 block.  Seems like a sharp increase in high value blocks lately.


Lots of bad news in world markets today which may have spurred trades.


----------



## moproblems99 (Oct 30, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> and I left this thread a long time ago, I don't understand why I keep getting notifications



And yet you keep posting.  Admit it...you love crypto!


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 30, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> And yet you keep posting.  Admit it...you love crypto!



I used to like following it yeah, but I don't care so much these days.  I think it is overvalued still.


----------



## Deleted member 158293 (Oct 30, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Lots of bad news in world markets today which may have spurred trades.



Yup...  and the riots in France, Spain, Algeria, Egypt, Hong Kong, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, the huge riots in Chile, and the problems and bank run in Lebanon.

Is really not going very well all over the world, it gives the people living there at least another option.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 22, 2019)

Bitcoin plummets to a six-month low on China crackdown
					

Bitcoin slumped to a six-month low on Friday after China's central bank launched a fresh crackdown on cryptocurrencies, warning of the risks entailed in issuing or trading them.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## RealNeil (Jan 27, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> bitcoin is peasant money as far as government and actual rich people are concerned.


Mony is money if it has any value at all, but bitcoin is far too volatile in its value (up and down, all around) for many of us.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 27, 2020)

maddistrong said:


> I don't believe that cryptocurrency will be used very much for next 5 years at leas. People are not ready for it yet. I remember guys who wanted to be rich and bought bitcoins for 20k. They lost more than a half of all their money on it. I also have a bitcoin wallet, but I don't think that I will use them anymore, so I have to withdrawal them. For a pity I forgot my password and I have to recover it with https://gpu-hash.com/



Nice thinly veiled ad for password cracking services.  If real I'd advise you to forget about it unless wallet was like, less than 8 chars.  Passworded wallets are very hard to crack.


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Jan 27, 2020)

I would never recommend putting your wallet info into one of these "systems." They record that information whether they are going to do something bad with it or not. Either way you just released your wallet to a public server that is easier to crack than your wallet.


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 15, 2020)

2 days late 
*Bitcoin price crashes spectacularly, losing 20 per cent of its value in minutes *

The price of bitcoin has plummeted dramatically, losing 20 per cent of its value in less than an hour.
The cryptocurrency crash takes bitcoin below $6,000 – its lowest value since 2019.
Several other major cryptocurrencies also experienced significant losses, with bitcoin cash losing around a third of its value.

Some cryptocurrency analysts have blamed the Covid-19 coronavirus outbreak, which has had a heavy impact on the global economy.
"Bitcoin has fallen as cryptocurrencies become caught up in the turmoil we're seeing in traditional markets," Simon Peters, a market analyst at online trading platform eToro, told _The Independent_.
"Previously seen as a possible safe haven in difficult times, investors now seem to be selling out to take back liquidity in case the coronavirus spreads even further. In a time of uncertainty, many investors might feel it is better to own cash or gold rather than more speculative cryptocurrencies like bitcoin."


----------



## Easy Rhino (Mar 15, 2020)

dorsetknob said:


> In a time of uncertainty, many investors might feel it is better to own cash or gold rather than more speculative cryptocurrencies like bitcoin."



That is pretty much the rule of investing. And bitcoin is HIGHLY speculative.


----------



## cdawall (Mar 17, 2020)

dorsetknob said:


> 2 days late
> *Bitcoin price crashes spectacularly, losing 20 per cent of its value in minutes *
> 
> The price of bitcoin has plummeted dramatically, losing 20 per cent of its value in less than an hour.
> ...



I believe oil is also at its lowest point in quite some time.

Markets are crashing, BTC is going to be worse.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2020)

Easy Rhino said:


> That is pretty much the rule of investing. And bitcoin is HIGHLY speculative.


More like entirely speculative.



cdawall said:


> I believe oil is also at its lowest point in quite some time.


Because some OPEC country (think it was Saudi Arabia) started dump oil again much to everyone else's dismay.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 17, 2020)

Easy Rhino said:


> That is pretty much the rule of investing. And bitcoin is HIGHLY speculative.



Doesn't matter if you know how and when to play the game.


----------



## yotano211 (Mar 17, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Doesn't matter if you know how and when to play the game.


i'm an ex trained stock analyst and i cant figure it out.


----------



## hat (Mar 17, 2020)

I stopped mining so I could do folding instead... but it seems like there's not enough work to go around there, so I'm mining again right now.


----------



## Vya Domus (Mar 17, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Doesn't matter if you know how and when to play the game.



With most companies you can get an idea of how their stock might evolve short term and long term, with bitcoin, might as well flip a coin.

Of course there are exception such as this, when everyone is dumping everything they have, bitcoin or not. But that's not much of a help.


----------



## DrCR (Mar 21, 2020)

It's interesting that at this point, gold is being sold too. Not sure though if that may really be those simply taking their earnings so they can put it into rather downtroden equities though.


dorsetknob said:


> "Previously seen as a possible safe haven in difficult times, investors now seem to be selling out to take back liquidity in case the coronavirus spreads even further. In a time of uncertainty, many investors might feel it is better to own cash or gold rather than more speculative cryptocurrencies like bitcoin."


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 21, 2020)

Cash is king. Always will be unless nation states fall, and I don't see that happening any time soon.


----------



## Asylum (Mar 24, 2020)

Now is a good time to invest in Bitcoin, prices are low and the market for Crypto is in a upturn.
If you wait much longer you will miss the boat.
XRP at .16 a share is a great long term investment also.









						Will Bitcoin Emerge As A Winner? 5 Things To Expect
					

In just 24 hours, $93 billion was wiped from the crypto markets, resulting in a 48% plunge in bitcoins’ price which came quickly. Will bitcoin emerge as a winner?




					www.forbes.com


----------



## ZenZimZaliben (Mar 25, 2020)

Asylum said:


> Now is a good time to invest in Bitcoin, prices are low and the market for Crypto is in a upturn.
> If you wait much longer you will miss the boat.
> XRP at .16 a share is a great long term investment also.
> 
> ...



I agree with you BUT the stock market is going to be the safer bet with probably just as good of returns...depending on stock you pick. Once COVID goes away the market will climb up big and that is what I am saving my money for. I am heavy in BTC, ETH, and XRP as well but I think the stock market will be the better play after all this stuff goes away.


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 25, 2020)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> I agree with you BUT the stock market is going to be the safer bet with probably just as good of returns...depending on stock you pick. Once COVID goes away the market will climb up big and that is what I am saving my money for. I am heavy in BTC, ETH, and XRP as well but I think the stock market will be the better play after all this stuff goes away.



Stock market is going to be insane returns 3 years from now. It might go down a couple more times, but it will keep going up and up and up over next 3 years. There is a lot of money to be made in stocks at the moment if you are willing to invest, leave it for 3-5 years, and not look at it until then to decide if you want to cash out.

Crypto is a fools game and always will be. It rides on the bets that since it has no regulators, a few big players will cause another 20k rise some day through trickery, and hopefully you can get it on it. that's all crypto has going for it anymore, pretty pathetic.


----------



## yotano211 (Mar 25, 2020)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> I agree with you BUT the stock market is going to be the safer bet with probably just as good of returns...depending on stock you pick. Once COVID goes away the market will climb up big and that is what I am saving my money for. I am heavy in BTC, ETH, and XRP as well but I think the stock market will be the better play after all this stuff goes away.


I am heavy cash. I am still waiting for some stocks to drop further. I'll be waiting until next months employment report. I have to see where the price on cardboard will be next month.


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 25, 2020)

yotano211 said:


> I am heavy cash. I am still waiting for some stocks to drop further. I'll be waiting until next months employment report. I have to see where the price on cardboard will be next month.



You waited to long, stocks have skyrocketed yesterday and today, no more drops coming for awhile, my guess is it will stay steady for awhile, once herd immunity forms within 4-5 months, stocks will skyrocket back up to 29k over 2 years.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 25, 2020)

Only because of talk of the $2 trillion stimulus package.  Wall Street is fickle.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 25, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> You waited to long, stocks have skyrocketed yesterday and today, no more drops coming for awhile, my guess is it will stay steady for awhile, once herd immunity forms within 4-5 months, stocks will skyrocket back up to 29k over 2 years.



You seem to think the effects are over.  The market will for sure be going down again.


----------



## phanbuey (Mar 25, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> You seem to think the effects are over.  The market will for sure be going down again.



Yeah this is a great time to buy some puts.  There is almost always a whipsaw period followed by another drop.


----------



## LFaWolf (Mar 25, 2020)

The weekly unemployment report comes out tomorrow. Estimate ranges from 800k to 4M unemployment applications. Use your judgement. My guess is a 1,000 points drop, people selling off after making a (small) profit.


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 25, 2020)

LFaWolf said:


> The weekly unemployment report comes out tomorrow. Estimate ranges from 800k to 4M unemployment


In the USA National interest  expect it to be deferred.


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 25, 2020)

LFaWolf said:


> The weekly unemployment report comes out tomorrow. Estimate ranges from 800k to 4M unemployment applications. Use your judgement. My guess is a 1,000 points drop, people selling off after making a (small) profit.



that's why stocks went up, part of why, the unemployment benefits at full pay for 4-6 months. so economy won't be hit as hard from it now regardless of the numbers.


----------



## LFaWolf (Mar 25, 2020)

If the number comes in and higher than expected, it will drop. And my guess is it will be higher than expected.


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 25, 2020)

LFaWolf said:


> If the number comes in and higher than expected, it will drop. And my guess is it will be higher than expected.



Very possible. I was looking at American Airlines stock, 49 cents a share in 2013 or so, and within 2 years it was 50 a share... man imagine buying then and selling even at 40 a share... stocks is where the really money is at, it's just so hard to know and so much risk unless you have excess to play with, or are in it for long haul. 

This is why the poor will never really catch up to the rich or upper middle class. Unless you are willing to risk what little you have, and I don't think I am willing to risk what little I have, not after seeing my Grandpa be in it for the long haul, though he was a bit dumb about it, he sold when it all crashed in 2008 thinking it was the end times, but if he just held his shares it would have risen back up in a few years. I look at it like this, if stocks truly collapsed and would worth nothing in a few years, American would probably cease to be a nation state and we would have entered into an Apocalypse of some kind. Buy, hold, sell when your buy price reaches double it's original number, this is going to be my golden rule. Eventually it will imo, even if it takes 10 years.


----------



## moproblems99 (Mar 25, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> This is why the poor will never really catch up to the rich or upper middle class



Unfortunately, it will be the middle class that never catches up.  One party takes all the money from the middle class and gives it to the poor while the other party takes it from the middle class and gives it to the corps and wealthy.


----------



## yotano211 (Mar 26, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> You waited to long, stocks have skyrocketed yesterday and today, no more drops coming for awhile, my guess is it will stay steady for awhile, once herd immunity forms within 4-5 months, stocks will skyrocket back up to 29k over 2 years.


You never have meet the VIX have you, watch where the Volatility Index is at, VIX,  I have not seem it this high for 10+ years. Fear is a much more powerful weapon than any virus.
I'm not worried about the 2T bailout package, I am more worried about over stimulation of the bailout.


----------



## Asylum (Apr 4, 2020)

More news on the upcoming rise on Bitcoin and Crypto. 









						Bitcoin’s Huge Surge This Week Could Be The Tip Of The Iceberg As Investors Recall 2017 Gold Rush
					

The precise reason for bitcoin's rise was not immediately clear, though reports of an increase in bitcoin demand this week could herald a retail investor driven surge similar to bitcoin's epic 2017 rally...




					www.forbes.com


----------



## basco (Apr 4, 2020)

just hodl and wait or i am the dumbest person on earth.
pic your choice or go to casino and set all on red.


----------



## Asylum (Apr 18, 2020)

Fresh news








						Crypto Market Surges Over $200 Billion As Bitcoin, Ethereum, Ripple’s XRP And Litecoin Soar—Here’s Why
					

Bitcoin and other major cryptocurrencies are soaring—pushing the combined value of the crypto market back over $200 billion...




					www.forbes.com


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 18, 2020)

Pulse.io is advising its customers to withdraw all digital funds from the site "as soon as possible," after announcing it'll shut down completely on June 26.

The online souk, which matched bitcoin (BTC) and bitcoin cash (BCH) users who wanted to buy Amazon gift cards at a discount and sellers that wanted cryptocurrency, said on Thursday that no new accounts will be allowed. On April 23 no new deals between buyers and sellers will be allowed, and all current transactions will be completed or terminated by the June 26 deadline.


----------



## Asylum (Apr 19, 2020)

Coinbase is what I use.
Easy to set up and you can even use Paypal.
It is insured also.








						Coinbase – Buy & Sell Bitcoin, Ethereum, and more with trust
					

Coinbase is a secure platform that makes it easy to buy, sell, and store cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, Ethereum, and more. Based in the USA, Coinbase is available in over 30 countries worldwide.




					www.coinbase.com


----------



## hat (Apr 19, 2020)

I wanted to use the coinbase debit card, but last time I checked that was EU only...


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 19, 2020)

Coinbase is the only one I've ever used.  All these other ops always kinda made me laugh in comparison...  I mean I was surprised MtGox didn't die earlier, tbf


----------



## Asylum (Apr 20, 2020)

Great outlook for investment.








						Bitcoin Price Approaching Buy Opportunity, Says Crypto Pundit
					

Brave New Coin analyst Josh Olszewicz used the Ichimoku Cloud to predict a “once in a quarter” buy opportunity for Bitcoin




					cointelegraph.com


----------



## Asylum (Apr 24, 2020)

One more time for the cheap seats.









						Bitcoin Prices Surge As 'Perfect Storm' Drives Gains
					

Bitcoin prices climbed nearly 8% in less than an hour today. How long with the cryptocurrency manage to hold these gains?




					www.forbes.com


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 24, 2020)

I sold my final holdings during this latest rise.  Not in it for this ride anymore.  Too stressful and life is enough.

Got around $200 for what would've been about half that not too long ago, so not bad.


----------



## Skywalker12345 (Apr 24, 2020)

Check out Gemini and Binance as well, also great choices.


----------



## hat (Apr 24, 2020)

Nicehash seems to be behaving strangely. I haven't received a payment in a while, even though my unpaid balance keeps resetting to 0. So, I updated to the latest Nicehash Legacy (held on to an old version for a while because I had issues with the newest one at the time) and now my unpaid balance isn't moving from 0 at all. Hopefully they're not up to shenanigans...


----------



## Asylum (Apr 28, 2020)

The wave is coming, do you have a board?









						Bitcoin Halving: A New Class Of Bitcoin Millionaires May Emerge
					

The third bitcoin halving could be a major catalyst for monetary change, resulting in a generation of new crypto millionaires.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 28, 2020)

Asylum said:


> The wave is coming, do you have a board?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We get it, a halving is coming.

I don't see it working out well for bitcoin this time.  Too many people were burned in the last bull rush to get back onboard and drive it back up.  I could be wrong, but I won't be betting on it this time.


----------



## Asylum (May 2, 2020)

You still have time!!









						Bitcoin Price ‘Likely’ To Pass $10,000 Before Halving
					

As the market weighs whether bitcoin's third supply cut is priced in, one closely-watched crypto analyst has said he thinks it "likely" the bitcoin price will climb above the psychological $10,000 mark before the May 12th halving...




					www.forbes.com


----------



## trog100 (May 3, 2020)

i think we are about to see cryptos climb.. i am an out and out hodler.. so i aint about to buy any but taking the feds money printing into account i see the crypto scene taking another run up..

trog


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 3, 2020)

Why?  Economies opening up again makes cryptocurrencies unattractive.

Halving is a means to artificially inflate the value of it.  New Bitcoin discovery is already painfully slow (and wasteful)...I don't see the point.

Seems to me like fools are about to get fooled again.


----------



## trog100 (May 3, 2020)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Why?  Economies opening up again makes cryptocurrencies unattractive.
> 
> Halving is a means to artificially inflate the value of it.  New Bitcoin discovery is already painfully slow (and wasteful)...I don't see the point.
> 
> Seems to me like fools are about to get fooled again.



economies opening up is a pipe dream ford.. they will try but fail.. this virus aint gonna go away.. its gonna do massive damage to the worlds economy.. wise up ford and you may figure out whats really going on..

trog


----------



## hat (May 5, 2020)

I don't see how the current state of the world would be good or bad for cryptocurrency in any special way. All economies are taking a hit. If you can't buy something with regular money, then similarly there's no opportunity to buy it with crypto either.


----------



## trog100 (May 5, 2020)

it more about a store of value hat than buying stuff.. excessive fed money in theory will debase the value of the dollar.. the stock markets will go down more and money has to be parked somewhere..

gold silver and crypto being the obvious choices.. 

trog


----------



## hat (May 5, 2020)

With so many out of work, I'm thinking the money that used to be flowing is just sitting with the businesses that are inactive. That business also isn't producing anything, whether it's a factory, or a service... so there's no money moving there, either. The economy is largely stalled. Nobody is working and there's nothing to buy, except the essentials, like food. There's nothing going on, so there's nothing to spend money on in the first place. This should be a negative thing all around, so I don't see crypto being any different.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 5, 2020)

trog100 said:


> it more about a store of value hat than buying stuff.. excessive fed money in theory will debase the value of the dollar..


The dollar is deflating meaning it's going up in value.  It's better to keep liquid money than invest in something risky like crypto or even stocks.  Bonds are the best investments during deflation but it's really smart to keep a liquid buffer against the economy because raises are unlikely for a long time.


----------



## trog100 (May 5, 2020)

the experts seem to be torn between inflation and deflation.. the fed is artificially keeping the stock market afloat.. how long they can keep doing that for is unknown.. 

basically we are in uncharted waters.. money printing is inflationary.. people not buying anything is deflationary.. a lot of the crypto  mining hardware will soon be obsolete.. i think we really are in who the -ck knows land.. he he

trog


----------



## Asylum (May 7, 2020)

Don't make me say it.









						Bitcoin Halving: Bitcoin Could Be About To Make Another Major Move
					

Bitcoin traders and investors are nervously counting down to next week's bitcoin supply squeeze, known as a halving...




					www.forbes.com


----------



## R-T-B (May 7, 2020)

Asylum said:


> Don't make me say it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will:  The explosive era has passed.  I don't see more stability as being bad for crypto though.


----------



## hat (May 7, 2020)

Are you suggesting people buy BTC now before the halving? That would be a bold move. There's no telling where this thing is gonna go. I suspect all the guys predicting BTC price is gonna take off are fat cats with something to gain... They're hoping everyone buys in so _they _can cash out big.


----------



## R-T-B (May 7, 2020)

hat said:


> Are you suggesting people buy BTC now before the halving? That would be a bold move. There's no telling where this thing is gonna go. I suspect all the guys predicting BTC price is gonna take off are fat cats with something to gain... They're hoping everyone buys in so _they _can cash out big.



You'd be betting smart.

Anyone telling you to buy something with such eagerness is certainly someone who stands to gain from your misfortune.


----------



## trog100 (May 7, 2020)

BC is sneaking up slowly.. currently at 9423.. gold is hovering around 1700..

they are saying that physical gold is in short supply or not deliverable.. when that happens the paper gold prices will break and more realistic real gold prices will kick in.. 

trog


----------



## Asylum (May 8, 2020)

I have been advising people to buy Bitcoin since it was at $4500.

It broke $10,000 today, seems like some pretty good advice to me.

Still a lot of room to grow in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Asylum (May 9, 2020)

More bang for the buck!!









						Publicly Traded Firm Buys An Additional 1,040 Bitcoin Miners
					

Yesterday afternoon, Riot Blockchain, a listed Nasdaq public cryptocurrency mining company, announced the purchase of an additional 1,040 next-generation Bitmain S19 (95 TH) Antminers for $1.9 million from BitmainTech.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Maxson (May 9, 2020)

hat said:


> Are you suggesting people buy BTC now before the halving? That would be a bold move. There's no telling where this thing is gonna go. I suspect all the guys predicting BTC price is gonna take off are fat cats with something to gain... They're hoping everyone buys in so _they _can cash out big.





Asylum said:


> I have been advising people to buy Bitcoin since it was at $4500.
> 
> It broke $10,000 today, seems like some pretty good advice to me.
> 
> Still a lot of room to grow in the next couple of weeks.



Sometimes in the past the Bitcoin price will drop after halving before rising again so now may or may not be a good time to buy. Over the past couple of years in general, below 6k has been a good place to buy BTC spot and above 7k has not and we are well above 7k. Will BTC price take off for the moon right after the halving? Probably not. Will it break a new all time high in the next 12 months? I'd say 50/50 chance. But it could well post a low around 4k to 5k before that.

So if you buy now at around 10k you have a 50/50 chance of doubling your money in the next 12 months, maybe, which is pretty good. But the flip side is you you could lose more than half of your money first. Unless you're an expert BTC trader the way to get a good entry price is to dollar cost average in (DCA) below the average price by buying a small amount of BTC, say a 20th of the amount you want to invest, at the spot price once a week every week if the price is below say 9k. And then hold it until we break a new all time high at which point you want to DCA sell.


----------



## R-T-B (May 10, 2020)

Asylum said:


> More bang for the buck!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ummm...  a private firms miner purchase has little correlation or relevance to bitcoins price.



Asylum said:


> I have been advising people to buy Bitcoin since it was at $4500.



And it just as easily could and can turn into bad advice, which is why we generally don't encourage others to "invest in this!" here.


----------



## trog100 (May 10, 2020)

well BC has just taken a $1000 dive during the night.. not as that means much as of yet.. he he

trog


----------



## R-T-B (May 10, 2020)

trog100 said:


> well BC has just taken a $1000 dive during the night.. not as that means much as of yet.. he he
> 
> trog



Has the halving happened?  If so, it's practically expected.


----------



## Asylum (May 12, 2020)

Still a lot of room for growth, the only reason the price dipped is because of short sellers. If people would hold on to their investment we would be at 12 - 15,000 by now.

The old Fiat system is totally out dated and we just keep printing money like there's no tomorrow. Who do you think is going to pay for all this money printing?

The American workers, that's who. This virus is going to get worse and we are going to be in a financial crisis very shortly. If the world doesn't find a true one to one financial asset shortly the whole world 

will be in for a rude awakening.









						All Eyes On Bitcoin As The Halving Executes Successfully
					

The Bitcoin Halving was executed successfully on May 11th. Although it remains to be seen how Bitcoin’s price will respond to the current macro landscape fueled by cheap credit and unprecedented levels of debt heading into a global recession, Bitcoin continues to operate exactly as designed.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## R-T-B (May 12, 2020)

Cool story bitcoin bro.  Sounds to me like your last posts advice just has thus far sucked.


----------



## Asylum (May 13, 2020)

Only thing I see here that sucks is your incapability to comprehend.


----------



## R-T-B (May 13, 2020)

Asylum said:


> Only thing I see here that sucks is your incapability to comprehend.



Yeah, i was hired here to write the crypto segment because of my "incapability" to comprehend the topic.  Yeppers.


----------



## Asylum (May 13, 2020)

I concur!!









						Bitcoin Has Halved—What Now?
					

Bitcoin successfully went through its third halving yesterday, seeing the daily supply of new bitcoin cut by half. The bitcoin community has now turned to what's next for the world's number one cryptocurrency and the bitcoin price...




					www.forbes.com


----------



## R-T-B (May 13, 2020)

Asylum said:


> I concur!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Heh, I've been in it a long time buddy.  I'm just reminding others this isn't really a place to get investing advice.  And that's the plain truth.  Only a fool gets investing advice from internet posts.  Do your homework.


----------



## trog100 (May 13, 2020)

its beginning to sneak up again... lets see where its at in a weeks time..

trog


----------



## hat (May 13, 2020)

All I can say is that, in my view, if traditional currency fails, cryptocurrency as it is now will not be the savior. Certainly not bitcoin. It's little else than a game... a side hustle.


----------



## R-T-B (May 13, 2020)

hat said:


> All I can say is that, in my view, if traditional currency fails, cryptocurrency as it is now will not be the savior. Certainly not bitcoin. It's little else than a game... a side hustle.



I've always viewed crypto as more useful as a means to transmit money over the internet than a money replacement.


----------



## trog100 (May 13, 2020)

i just see it as a store of value.. compared to everything else its not doing badly in this respect in 2020..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (May 14, 2020)

trog100 said:


> i just see it as a store of value.. compared to everything else its not doing badly in this respect in 2020..
> 
> trog



It can be either/or, but I think we both don't see it completely replacing national currency anytime soon.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2020)

trog100 said:


> wise up ford and you may figure out whats really going on..



It ain't because the virus.


----------



## trog100 (May 14, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> It can be either/or, but I think we both don't see it completely replacing national currency anytime soon.



no i dont see it doing that ether.. but i do think just like gold and silver its a good store of value in this virus scenario..  too much money printing could well destroy the dollars value.. 

BC is creeping up near 10 000 again.. a bullish sign i think.. but nothing is for sure..

trog


----------



## Asylum (May 19, 2020)

I'll just leave this right here.









						Bitcoin Is 'Right Where Oil Was In 1890'
					

The third bitcoin halving took place last Monday. About 18.4 million bitcoin are in circulation, meaning there’s only 2.6 million remaining up for grabs.




					seekingalpha.com


----------



## Caring1 (May 19, 2020)

Asylum said:


> I'll just leave this right here.


Synopsis
_noun_
noun: *synopsis*; plural noun: *synopses*

a brief summary or general survey of something


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 19, 2020)

Asylum said:


> I'll just leave this right here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, no, cryptocurrencies aren't a safe store of value.  The market is too volatile.

And the risk is deflation, not inflation.  Mild inflation is normal; deflation is what depressions are made of.  Deflation means fiat currencies have more purchasing power, not less...but it's also harder to get your hands on fiat currencies that are deflating.  This is where fiat currencies are great: they can create money out of thin air, disseminating it throughout the economy, neutralizing deflation and stabilizing itself as a store of value simultaneously.  Gold standards prohibited that...which is what made the Great Depression terrible.


----------



## trog100 (May 19, 2020)

does it not occur to you ford that anything that can just be created out of thin air is ultimately worthless..  

trog


----------



## hat (May 21, 2020)

To be fair, the same thing can be said about Bitcoin, or any cryptocurrency. Ultimately, it is the flow of fiat currency through Bitcoin that gives it its value. Sure, I can sit here and mine petty amounts per day "out of thin air"... but what enables me to do that? USD does, because that's what I pay my electricity bill with. I also used USD to buy my video cards in the first place. It's essentially a toy... a side hustle. Though mining has helped me greatly since I've started doing it, that's still all it really is.

Here's another way to look at it: currently, with two GTX1070s, I earn just under a dollar's worth of BTC per day. Or, I can take an extra day of work at my very mediocre job and pull down an extra $100 in a single day. In other words, it would take over 3 months of constant, uninterrupted mining to equal what I can do in a single day at work. I continue to do it because at this point it's essentially "free" for me to do so (as the cards have since paid for themselves), and market conditions could always improve... maybe eventually I can have a whole single bitcoin and it will be worth some stupid amount of money as some predict... but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


----------



## trog100 (May 21, 2020)

fiat can be created at the touch of a keyboard.. bitcoin requires an input of energy and compute power.. unlike fiat it isnt just created out of thin air.. plus there is a finite supply fiat has an infinite supply..

trog


----------



## hat (May 22, 2020)

Supply of crypto is pretty much infinite as well. Take BTC for example. Each BTC is made of 100 million units called "satoshi". If one bitcoin was $100m, each Satoshi would be one dollar. Multiply that by the eventual 21 million cap of existing bitcoin and you have, well, a lot. Supply and demand will handle the price. There will always be enough bitcoin to go around. 

Yes, it takes a lot of energy to create new crypto. It's designed that way, because if anyone can just go get an antminer and mine hundreds of bitcoin, well... It wouldn't be very good. So there's an artificial "difficulty" variable at play that makes them harder to get. It's inherently wasteful by design, because there's no other way to control the supply.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 22, 2020)

trog100 said:


> fiat can be created at the touch of a keyboard.. bitcoin requires an input of energy and compute power.. unlike fiat it isnt just created out of thin air.. plus there is a finite supply fiat has an infinite supply..


Except fiat are destroyed as easily as they are created.  Money supply flexes with money demand.  That's why commodity prices stay relatively flat...stability is important.

Bitcoin, especially, has no stabilizing mechanics.  A cryptocurrency could probably be created which creates supply relatively to demand but it can't take into consideration broader economic factors like the Federal Reserve and the Euro Bank does.  As such, it will never be an effective replacement--only a supplement/complement.




hat said:


> Supply of crypto is pretty much infinite as well. Take BTC for example. Each BTC is made of 100 million units called "satoshi". If one bitcoin was $100m, each Satoshi would be one dollar. Multiply that by the eventual 21 million cap of existing bitcoin and you have, well, a lot. Supply and demand will handle the price. There will always be enough bitcoin to go around.


Double precision which BTC uses has limitations on accuracy.  The further the number gets from zero, the greater the rounding error.

Significand or mantissa: 0-51 <- describes the actual number so 51 bits of precision
Exponent: 52-62
Sign (0 = Positive, 1 = Negative): 63

-1.7976931348623157E+308 to 1.7976931348623157E+308


----------



## Space Lynx (May 22, 2020)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Except fiat are destroyed as easily as they are created.  Money supply flexes with money demand.  That's why commodity prices stay relatively flat...stability is important.
> 
> Bitcoin, especially, has no stabilizing mechanics.  A cryptocurrency could probably be created which creates supply relatively to demand but it can't take into consideration broader economic factors like the Federal Reserve and the Euro Bank does.  As such, it will never be an effective replacement--only a supplement/complement.
> 
> ...



Let them have their delusions Ford, they will never touch the actual power that comes with Fiat. aka taxes + military + law enforcement.  Fiat is king and always will be and has been since society existed, it is a mechanism of power not money and power will never be given up. crypto is just so small in the eyes of the shakers and bakers moving trillions around that they are not worried about it, the moment they become worried about it they will ban all exchanges and all businesses from being allowed to use it and then guess what, it no longer will have power. power resides in the physical military, law enforcement, and tax payer system 

At this point most crypto holders are just hoping to get rich quick on another fake spike generated by some big movers who made the big spike in the first place due to no regulation and they are trying to justify it because they have a little extra money (fiat) they don't mind losing out on. hehe funny how they don't risk too much of their fiat isn't it?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 22, 2020)

Wait, what?  It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with practicality.  Gold standard was as much a liability (suffer the wrath of fluctuating demand) as a boon (natural growth in supply).  Fiat, so far, has proven very resilient...minimizing the number and severity of huge financial disruptions.  Fiat is being tested to its limits right now.  If it breaks, maybe something else (could be crypto-based) rises from the ashes.  If it doesn't, well, it's pretty much the last nail in the coffin for crypto ever challenging fiat.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 22, 2020)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Wait, what?  It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with practicality.  Gold standard was as much a liability (suffer the wrath of fluctuating demand) as a boon (natural growth in supply).  Fiat, so far, has proven very resilient...minimizing the number and severity of huge financial disruptions.  Fiat is being tested to its limits right now.  If it breaks, maybe something else (could be crypto-based) rises from the ashes.  If it doesn't, well, it's pretty much the last nail in the coffin for crypto ever challenging fiat.



It's to corrupted to break. Every country owes each other so much money they won't allow it to break. They will just keep allowing each other to raise the debt ceiling to keep the peace, as long as no one does anything crazy like give everyone a million dollars, a few shady things will go down sure, but overall everything will stay steady. People are already bored and want to go back to work, tax payer system will start getting paid into again very soon at full speed.


----------



## trog100 (May 22, 2020)

my comments have been more about knocking fiat and the current money printing to infinity that is going on.. 

things will never go back to how they were this virus is a game changer.. we have to learn to live with it.. how we do that remains to be seen.. 

trog


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## Asylum (Jun 16, 2020)

Sell now. looks like another drop is coming,..


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## R-T-B (Jul 11, 2020)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Double precision which BTC uses has limitations on accuracy. The further the number gets from zero, the greater the rounding error.



I don't know how you don't grasp that they addressed that in the source way back at it's inception by using integer units as needed, basically.  The rounding error simply does not occur in bitcoin.  There is an ancient issue open for it that has long since been addressed back in like, 2011.  In short, they noticed this very quickly (especially when thousand+ bitcoin wallets were the norm) and addressed it equally quickly.

That point of yours is at this point, pure FUD.   Satoshi's are effectively both accurate and indivisible.


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