# Naughty Bitcoin miners steal electricity



## qubit (May 28, 2021)

Sandwell Bitcoin mine found stealing electricity https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-57280115


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## phill (May 28, 2021)

A friend showed me this at work, was kind of surprised but not lol 

On that same article, it had this link - Bitcoin Power Comparison  It was a pretty interesting few minutes read I thought


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

Naughty bitcoin miners build americas largest solar farm...

oh wait.









						Crypto Mining Company Plans One Of The Largest Solar Projects In The U.S. | OilPrice.com
					

One crypto mining company is looking to make its solar power debut in Montana and is planning one of the largest solar projects in the United States known as the Basin Creek Solar Project




					oilprice.com


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

governments of the world probably going to ban all crypto from exchanges, banks, and businesses the more this kind of stuff goes on.  can't say I blame them if they do.


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> governments of the world probably going to ban all crypto from exchanges, banks, and businesses the more this kind of stuff goes on.  can't say I blame them if they do.


We are way beyond that point outside of authoritarian countries.

It isn't all bad either.  The article above is literally Americas largest solar project, funded for and by crypto.  Will also power 14,000 homes.


The news coverage of crypto however is as uneducated as ever...



> Atlas has previously mined bitcoin but is now looking at mining ethereum so it can use GPU processers instead of the power-hog ASIC machines.



They got the consumption metric backwards...


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## freeagent (May 29, 2021)

I saw one on tictok.. it was pretty impressive. Reindeer something.. not solar of course but the scale was up there, at least to me.. it’s not a subject I got into so to my eyes it was mildly impressive


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## Deleted member 202104 (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> It isn't all bad either.  The article above is literally Americas largest solar project, funded for and by crypto.  Will also power 14,000 homes.



Except that all of that solar equipment doesn't just appear.  There's a sizeable energy input required to manufacture it all.  Additionally there's the waste created after the equipment is past its serviceable life.

I'm not anti-solar by any means.  Generated 15 MWh last year myself.  The issue is the waste of these resources to do _absolutely nothing_.


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

I'm in agreement that PoW is less efficient than it could be, but disagree with this:


weekendgeek said:


> The issue is the waste of these resources to do _absolutely nothing_.


The payment system itself, often forgotten by critics, is something.  Though I strongly believe better ones than bitcoin exist (lower fees and more capacity etc) and eventually mining will be obsolete in general.  In the meantime, I have no issue with the existing dog and pony show building the green infrastructure the US seems unable to do on it's own.


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## micropage7 (May 29, 2021)

qubit said:


> Sandwell Bitcoin mine found stealing electricity https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-57280115


when you can get alot of $ in mining and you still stealing the electricity it called an irony


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## Kissamies (May 29, 2021)

Just go to your fusebox and switch everything off? Nobody steals any electricity anymore.


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## R0H1T (May 29, 2021)

Naughty? Is that a modern colloquial term for *thieving *


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## Deleted member 202104 (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I'm in agreement that PoW is less efficient than it could be, but disagree with this:
> 
> The payment system itself, often forgotten by critics, is something.  Though I strongly believe better ones than bitcoin exist (lower fees and more capacity etc) and eventually mining will be obsolete in general.  In the meantime, I have no issue with the existing dog and pony show building the green infrastructure the US seems unable to do on it's own.



Sure. The blockchain will save us all.

Why mess around with wasting electricity?  Let's just make an OldGrowth coin.  Every old growth tree you cut down you get a coin.  Holy shit, can you imagine the value of that coin once they're gone?  Hand me the fuckin' chain saw.


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## Kissamies (May 29, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> Sure. The blockchain will save us all.
> 
> Why mess around with wasting electricity?  Let's just make an OldGrowth coin.  Every old growth tree you cut down you get a coin.  Holy shit, can you imagine the value of that coin once they're gone?  Hand me the fuckin' chain saw.


I can just imagine how much more illegal shit is coming with this crypto toy money shit..


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

Chloe Price said:


> I can just imagine how much more illegal shit is coming with this crypto toy money shit..


Nothing new I assure you.  Cash is still king for criminal stuff.



weekendgeek said:


> Sure. The blockchain will save us all.


It has benefits over alternatives in terms of record validation.  That said, it also has limits.  No need to mock.  If everyone understood blockchain we'd be A LOT better off.


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## Kissamies (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Nothing new I assure you.  Cash is still king for criminal stuff.


Kinda depends. If I buy few grams of weed, I pay with cash.

I don't buy other illegal shit than weed so I use bank transfers otherwise.


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## silentbogo (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> governments of the world probably going to ban all crypto from exchanges, banks, and businesses the more this kind of stuff goes on. can't say I blame them if they do.


It ain't like stealing electricity wasn't a thing since the invention of a power meter. 
Even today there's still a thing, where someone would find a person with govt. subsidy (retiree or disabled person, who gets it at half the usual price), pay a few bucks a month to top up a miserable sub-$150/mo pension, and run a packaging plant or small-scale manufacturing from their basement or just throw some wires to the nearby shed. If you do it legit way - your price per kWh will quadruple.
Even when I was a kid fresh out of high school, my first two workplaces had a secret switch for free unlimited powa-a-a!!!


weekendgeek said:


> Sure. The blockchain will save us all.


Who knows, it all starts with small things.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> building the green infrastructure the US seems unable to do on it's own.


the anti-green effort is being headed by big oil.


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## witkazy (May 29, 2021)

Pirates will be pirates ,what else is new?
To be clear, not saying every miner is pirate ,far from it but muggin and worse happens every day and it barely is makin' news. Crap i'm old ,cheers


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## Zach_01 (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> governments of the world probably going to ban all crypto from exchanges, banks, and businesses the more this kind of stuff goes on.  can't say I blame them if they do.


I really don't think this would happen. Govs like ordinary people like profits too *for starters*.
And the tech behind blockchain is way more than just buy, sell and profit. Its here to stay. It will be a slow adoption, maybe a few decades, but it will evolve and the world with it, among other things.

And this idea of "my arm is pain, so lets cut it off to stop the pain" instead of finding a solution has never helped anything to go forward.
Imagine all the things that thieves, stealers, scams, killers, drug dealers are taking advantage to be banished from the face of the world so they can't use them.
Let's return to mountains...

These people will always find a way to do their things and Govs and agencies will always try to find a way to stop them/restrict them.
Ban things will not really help anything.


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## Rithsom (May 29, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> Sure. The blockchain will save us all.
> 
> Why mess around with wasting electricity?  Let's just make an OldGrowth coin.  Every old growth tree you cut down you get a coin.  Holy shit, can you imagine the value of that coin once they're gone?  Hand me the fuckin' chain saw.



Agreed. I'm okay with crypto, but for the love of God, can we just switch away from energy-hogging Proof of Work already?


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## Zach_01 (May 29, 2021)

Rithsom said:


> Agreed. I'm okay with crypto, but for the love of God, can we just switch away from energy-hogging Proof of Work already?


These things cant be done in a day or a month. Developers need time...


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## Valantar (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> We are way beyond that point outside of authoritarian countries.
> 
> It isn't all bad either.  The article above is literally Americas largest solar project, funded for and by crypto.  Will also power 14,000 homes.
> 
> ...


And how long will they need to power those 14 000 homes to offset the emissions of producing and building the plant, compared to if the whole plant was used to cover existing power usage? That's the thing: to combat climate change and keep the planet livable, we need to cut not just emissions, but consumption. The last thing we need is to invent new things that consume massive amounts of power. Yet crypto does exactly thar, by driving a major increase in electricity consumption for no real benefit, and by not replacing anything that already exists. (And yes, we could argue the virtue of its so called benefits till the cows come home, but the key takeaway is this: _nothing_ would have been worse than it is today if crypto was never invented. There might be some interesting theoretical applications, but so far the actual added value to society or the world from crypto is zero.)



Zach_01 said:


> These things cant be done in a day or a month. Developers need time...


And in the meantime we should just let them burn massive amounts of energy as if we lived in a dream world with infinite resources? Yeah, sorry, I don't buy that.



Zach_01 said:


> And this idea of "my arm is pain, so lets cut it off to stop the pain" instead of finding a solution has never helped anything to go forward.
> Imagine all the things that thieves, stealers, scams, killers, drug dealers are taking advantage to be banished from the face of the world so they can't use them.
> Let's return to mountains...


That metaphor is all kinds of wrong. A more accurate one would be that you're arguing "My hand has a new and exciting form of gangrene, so let's not amputate it quite yet, who knows, in the future this infection might become useful!"


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## MentalAcetylide (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Naughty bitcoin miners build americas largest solar farm...
> 
> oh wait.
> 
> ...


heh, then we'll go from fighting over graphics cards to fighting over real estate: land for solar panels vs land for building homes.


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## Zach_01 (May 29, 2021)

General questions that are not targeting individuals

Who is to name it one of the worst things that can find a man?
So is crypto right now one of the worst things in this world? Who named it? Haters? Gamers? Green Peace? Crypto price manipulators? People who do not understand it? Ones who can't or don't want to be a part of it?
I do not buy that.

What is the world's entire usage of energy and how much of that (in %) is crypto related? Can anyone answer that? I doubt it.
If some (few) countries like China can't control their people and what short of energy source they use, or do not have laws that do not prevent energy sources from 100years before, it's not crypto's fault.
I bet most of crypto farms out side of these countries are using renewable energy sources. At least solar panels.


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## 64K (May 29, 2021)

Building millions of solar panels creates a lot of waste when they will eventually enter landfills. Some of it toxic like lead and cadmium that cannot be removed before going in the landfill but could leech out over time.


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## Tomgang (May 29, 2021)

Some miners have no respect for the pollution this cause or apparently neither for how they get the electricity. Just as long these greedy bastards earn money.

I hate mining and I will never support this in any way like buying used mining cards.

Not only is it a pain in the ass as a gamer, that I can't get a card to a reasonable price. It's also the pollution this cause with the high electricity consumption.


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## Kissamies (May 29, 2021)

Tomgang said:


> Some miners have no respect for the pollution this cause or apparently neither for how they get the electricity. Just as long these greedy bastards earn money.
> 
> I hate mining and I will never support this in any way like buying used mining cards.
> 
> Not only is it a pain in the ass as a gamer, that I can't get a card to a reasonable price. It's also the pollution this cause with the high electricity consumption.


Personally I don't give a crap about anything else than the toy money miners grab all the GPUs and the prices are insane.

Paid 300EUR from my 1080 Ti on February and this was a great deal, and I'm absolutely not going to use this to mine toy money, I'd rather get a job.


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## Vya Domus (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> governments of the world probably going to ban all crypto from exchanges, banks, and businesses the more this kind of stuff goes on.  can't say I blame them if they do.



Like I pointed out many times, you can't ban nor control crypto, you can only mess with the exchanges.


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## jeremyshaw (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Naughty bitcoin miners build americas largest solar farm...
> 
> oh wait.
> 
> ...


Why cherry pick? 

Bitcoin Miners Are Giving New Life to Old Fossil-Fuel Power Plants - WSJ


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> Like I pointed out many times, you can't ban nor control crypto, you can only mess with the exchanges.



crypto is considered a commodity not a currency, so what is to stop them from banning all exchanges, businesses, and banks from allowing its use on USA soil?  nothing stopping them, in fact if Biden said it was a National Security issue and it very well may be, he could probably sign an executive order overnight doing this blanket ban.


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## Vya Domus (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> so what is to stop them from banning all exchanges, businesses, and banks from allowing its use on USA soil?



Nothing, banning exchanges and banning crypto are two different things.


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> Nothing, banning exchanges and banning crypto are two different things.



I mean if he declares it a National Security concern which they may very well do someday since government will never allow Fiat to be undermined, they can simply make it illegal based on those grounds of safety. Not sure anyone could stop an executive order from the President if it was based on the highest of security concerns, that is the only reason the executive branch exists really.


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## Vya Domus (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I mean if he declares it a National Security concern which they may very well do someday since government will never allow Fiat to be undermined, they can simply make it illegal based on those grounds of safety. Not sure anyone could stop an executive order from the President if it was based on the highest of security concerns, that is the only reason the executive branch exists really.



Piracy is also illegal, I don't think I need to explain why that means jack.


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

Chloe Price said:


> I don't buy other illegal shit than weed so I use bank transfers otherwise.


Neither do I.



Rithsom said:


> Agreed. I'm okay with crypto, but for the love of God, can we just switch away from energy-hogging Proof of Work already?


Not opposed to the idea.  I don't like proof of work but was just pointing out some fringe benefits.



jeremyshaw said:


> Why cherry pick?
> 
> Bitcoin Miners Are Giving New Life to Old Fossil-Fuel Power Plants - WSJ


Because one is a single fringe coal plant, the other is literally the biggest planned solar farm in America.  But yes, this happens too.  I just wanted to show it's not all negative.  I'm not denying proof of work is flawed.  Never have been.


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> Piracy is also illegal, I don't think I need to explain why that means jack.



if you take away the exchanges, businesses, and banks it effectively takes away the power of bitcoin. sure your common person can still use it on craigslist, but its value will plummet. and if those people do get caught their crypto will be confiscated just like the rest of their illegal stuff. happens daily. nothing new there. the only reason bitcoin rose in price is so quickly is a world wide acceptance from big banks accepting it, paypal allowing you to use it for almost anything, elon supporting it, etc. once all of that is gone it will crash to mere 1-2k a coin range. making it no longer a threat to fiat long term.

there have always been black market currencies well before crypto was invented, so I mean, nothing new to see there.


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## Vya Domus (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> if you take away the exchanges, businesses, and banks it effectively takes away the power of bitcoin. sure your common person can still use it on craigslist, but its value will plummet. and if those people do get caught their crypto will be confiscated just like the rest of their illegal stuff. happens daily. nothing new there. the only reason bitcoin rose in price is so quickly is a world wide acceptance from big banks accepting it, paypal allowing you to use it for almost anything, elon supporting it, etc. once all of that is gone it will crash to mere 1-2k a coin range. making it no longer a threat to fiat long term.
> 
> there have always been black market currencies well before crypto was invented, so I mean, nothing new to see there.



It's value sure will plummet but the point is that you can't really touch crypto itself, just the interfaces between it and fiat.


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

I'm not really sure you understand how unlikely a ban on crypto as a commodity is.

Biden COULD choose to make it a national security issue and stop banks in USA from transacting it.  But even that I see as exceedingly unlikely.  Too many big banks are deeply invested now.


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I'm not really sure you understand how unlikely a ban on crypto as a commodity is.
> 
> Biden COULD choose to make it a national security issue and stop banks in USA from transacting it.  But even that I see as exceedingly unlikely.  Too many big banks are deeply invested now.



oh I am well aware America is a failed state and that will never happen, its far too corrupted for anything like that to ever happen. 

I don't really care either way, I am certain climate change is about to make 5 billion people homeless/starving within 20 years. so meh.  no one ever listens, so I simply no longer care


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## Aquinus (May 29, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> It's value sure will plummet but the point is that you can't really touch crypto itself, just the interfaces between it and fiat.


You won't need to touch crypto if it's not worth anything. The only reason it's worth anything is because people who have real money say it does. If that changes, it'll devalue like throwing a rock into a pond.


lynx29 said:


> America is a failed state


Nice hyperbole.


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

Aquinus said:


> You won't need to touch crypto if it's not worth anything. The only reason it's worth anything is because people who have real money say it does. If that changes, it'll devalue like throwing a rock into a pond.
> 
> Nice hyperbole.



lobbyists and big donations to political campaigns have decided policy for decades, bitcoin is no different, that is the number 1 reason it will never be banned even though those in power know its terrible for the environment/undermines fiat, etc.  too many hedge funds will make sure it never gets banned, too many donations to certain marketing campaigns, etc etc.

biden has said climate change is most important thing to him, yet he doesn't care about crypto at all, I wonder why that is... too many friends in high places... they all rub shoulders together, it effects policy.

it is a failed state.  half of america has diabetes or pre-diabetes, or close to half anyway. because of policies that were corrupted by bribed research groups 30-50 years ago. i forget how long ago but I know it was a long time. lol  sugar is good and so is corn syrup bro! nom nom

this is just one example... tip of the iceberg... big telecom anyone? lol









						All 535 members of Congress, and how much money they got from ISPs
					

Congress took $101 million in donations from the ISP industry — here’s how much your lawmaker got.




					www.theverge.com
				




mmm money nom nom nom!









						'Lizards on a treadmill': Rand Paul calls out wasteful research spending with colorful props on Senate floor
					

Republican Sen. Rand Paul brought a stack of colorful posters as visual aids to the Senate floor Friday for a half-hour long speech lamenting “ridiculous” taxpayer-funded research at multiple federal agencies.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				




1.6 million dollars spent on taking x-rays of lizards running on a treadmill.

tax payer money hard at work!


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## Aquinus (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> it is a failed state. half of america has diabetes or pre-diabetes, or close to half anyway.


I was unaware that people's eating habits were the fault of the government and that equates a failed state. There is definitely corruption, but the US isn't what a failed state looks like. Venezuela is a far better example.


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

Aquinus said:


> I was unaware that people's eating habits were the fault of the government and that equates a failed state. There is definitely corruption, but the US isn't what a failed state looks like. Venezuela is a far better example.



True, I meant a failed state as far as what the original founders intended this country to be. 

Research groups paid for by lobbyists in the sugar/corn syrup industries did influence policy that inflated obesity. If you don't understand that then you don't understand science. Most people are making corrections cause they didn't realize what they were doing to their bodies all those years. Also, that was just one example, I am fine to concede it, I have 100 more, but I don't have time for it, so meh.

Like I said doesn't matter, climate change is about to cause mass displacement and mass famine within 10-20 years, humans will finally get a lesson in their hubris soon enough


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## Aquinus (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I meant a failed state as far as what the original founders intended this country to be.


I'd agree with that given what we know about the founding fathers and the constitution. I do also think that people have some rather interesting takes on what they think it's supposed to mean. You can ask two different people what they think the 2nd amendment means and you could get two very different answers. All I'm saying is that while the US has its problems, I wouldn't call it failed state. A corrupt state, maybe, but not failed.



lynx29 said:


> Like I said doesn't matter, climate change is about to cause mass displacement and mass famine within 10-20 years, humans will finally get a lesson in their hubris soon enough


I'm looking forward to the extended growing season up here.


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## Space Lynx (May 29, 2021)

Aquinus said:


> I'd agree with that given what we know about the founding fathers and the constitution. I do also think that people have some rather interesting takes on what they think it's supposed to mean. You can ask two different people what they think the 2nd amendment means and you could get two very different answers. All I'm saying is that while the US has its problems, I wouldn't call it failed state. A corrupt state, maybe, but not failed.



correct, I concede that. I ctrl + find + replace every time I said failed state and replace it with corrupt state. I agree with that lol

I think the reason I say failed, is simply because I see it never changing. /shrug

as far as second amendment goes, our founding fathers never knew of weapons so powerful that we have now... so I am uncertain they would agree with how far that interpretation has gone. but still allow most guns for a right to bear arms, just not all... that's the tricky part i think, cause no one trusts each other to decide what those guns are and aren't.  the las vegas shooting for example a few years ago, that weapon was insanely powerful... I am pretty sure the founding fathers would not want that kind of firepower allowed outside of military. (my assumption for this is that they did believe in reason and logic...) a musket militia is much different than a single person with that insane weapon...


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## Steevo (May 29, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Naughty bitcoin miners build americas largest solar farm...
> 
> oh wait.
> 
> ...


I have been asked by people to go work on that, currently they are using coal power to run it. Now they are going to double dip by selling the power and carbon credits as well as subsidies to pay for their project.
Nah....


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## R-T-B (May 29, 2021)

Steevo said:


> I have been asked by people to go work on that, currently they are using coal power to run it. Now they are going to double dip by selling the power and carbon credits as well as subsidies to pay for their project.
> Nah....


Carbon credits are again, being used to fund green infrastructure.  But yes, fairly ironic.


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## 80251 (May 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> governments of the world probably going to ban all crypto from exchanges, banks, and businesses the more this kind of stuff goes on.  can't say I blame them if they do.


Drug cartels, kiddy porn distributors, drug dealers, arms dealers, islamic terrorist orgs. and money launderers won't be happy if that happens.


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## MentalAcetylide (May 29, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> General questions that are not targeting individuals
> 
> Who is to name it one of the worst things that can find a man?
> So is crypto right now one of the worst things in this world? Who named it? Haters? Gamers? Green Peace? Crypto price manipulators? People who do not understand it? Ones who can't or don't want to be a part of it?
> ...


Its not the worst thing for sure. There have been far worse things, even long before the industrial revolution. One can even legitimately argue that crypto in itself isn't the problem, but rather people in general are the problem. 
As for China not being able to control their people, that's not entirely accurate. China has the same issue that every other government in the world has whenever there's a lot of money involved: corruption.


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## R-T-B (May 30, 2021)

80251 said:


> Drug cartels, kiddy porn distributors, drug dealers, arms dealers, islamic terrorist orgs. and money launderers won't be happy if that happens.


Add big banks to that list as a far larger investor than almost any of those.

Which is why we are well beyond that happening.


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## qubit (May 30, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Naughty? Is that a modern colloquial term for *thieving *


Just a bit of sarcasm. Makes the headline more interesting in my opinion.


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## fma67 (May 30, 2021)

Do you think the stealing electricity appeared once with crypto-mining?
Be sure not, but we care about (or discuss about) coz the mining is affecting us (via prohibitive GPUs prices)


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## phill (May 30, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> Except that all of that solar equipment doesn't just appear.  There's a sizeable energy input required to manufacture it all.  Additionally there's the waste created after the equipment is past its serviceable life.
> 
> I'm not anti-solar by any means.  Generated 15 MWh last year myself.  The issue is the waste of these resources to do _absolutely nothing_.


How big is your array for generating all of that?  Massively impressive!!    I think I'm generating about 4 to 4.5MWh...  Nothing massive by your standards but it definitely helps


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## R0H1T (May 30, 2021)

fma67 said:


> Be sure not, but we care about (or discuss about) coz the mining is affecting us (*via prohibitive GPUs prices*)


No not really, you'd be surprised by how many (i.e. few) people are affected by GPU prices. Stealing electricity on the other hand, or actual mining leading to in small parts "global warming" affects us all.


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## Zach_01 (May 30, 2021)

"I assume that all people concerned about global warming have turned their houses into greenhouses and choose the bicycle for transportation." /s

I know a very few would do it, but I really doubt it about the majority of the "concerned" ones.


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## Steevo (May 30, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Carbon credits are again, being used to fund green infrastructure.  But yes, fairly ironic.



Except a lot of the carbon credits are bough and sold as currency to keep the system in place while creating a newer system with out the infrastructure to support it reliably.

the sun doesn’t shine here in MY for very long in the winter and it snows a lot, meaning limited solar output and unless we want to mine a lot of lithium we have a net negative balance, the addition of infrastructure to overcome this adds to the carbon footprint of the installation taking it longer to achieve a positive effect.

The current discussion is a nuclear plant to replace the coal and ability to reuse the existing installations with a significantly lower impact making it even more green than solar with higher energy performance when it gets colder.
I support this more than solar and wind installations, it’s greener, provides a stable base load, and of subsidized correctly will allow smaller solar installs function correctly for their purpose, put solar on homes and over parking spaces for electric vehicles.


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## Deleted member 202104 (May 30, 2021)

phill said:


> How big is your array for generating all of that?  Massively impressive!!  I think I'm generating about 4 to 4.5MWh... Nothing massive by your standards but it definitely helps



It's has 32 315w panels, so theoretically it's a 10.08 kW system.  Peak output during the best parts of the year is about 60-62 kWh per day.  Since installation I've fortunately been a net-producer and that includes quite a bit of AC during our summers (we're going to be 106F/41C this Tuesday) and 20-30 miles of driving 3-4 days per week (plug-in hybrid).  I live in an area that has sun most of the year and far enough south to make solar effective.  Last year's output was a little lower as we had over a month with heavy smoke from wildfires and didn't see the sun.  I was also a little lazy keeping them clean.


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## yotano211 (May 30, 2021)

witkazy said:


> Pirates will be pirates ,what else is new?
> To be clear, not saying every miner is pirate ,far from it but muggin and worse happens every day and it barely is makin' news. Crap i'm old ,cheers


I'm a pirate when I see my girlfriends booty and my 18tb external HD.


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## phill (May 30, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> It's has 32 315w panels, so theoretically it's a 10.08 kW system.  Peak output during the best parts of the year is about 60-62 kWh per day.  Since installation I've fortunately been a net-producer and that includes quite a bit of AC during our summers (we're going to be 106F/41C this Tuesday) and 20-30 miles of driving 3-4 days per week (plug-in hybrid).  I live in an area that has sun most of the year and far enough south to make solar effective.  Last year's output was a little lower as we had over a month with heavy smoke from wildfires and didn't see the sun.  I was also a little lazy keeping them clean.


I've only had 12 panels put up, 305w each so just over 3.6kW system.  I think anything from 20 to 30 kW a day is decent for me    The solar package over here in the UK has gone to crap but I make sure I make the most of it with the Crunching and the like I use everyday  

When I move to a bigger home and such like, I will make sure that the solar system/s I will get installed are as big as possible and hopefully will be also able to get a decent battery on them as well....  

I'm glad I have the solar but still paying for the electric is the problem with two price increases this year...  It's not going to get any cheaper that's for sure....

But I digress....


----------



## 80251 (May 31, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Add big banks to that list as a far larger investor than almost any of those.
> 
> Which is why we are well beyond that happening.


I'd like to see proof of this assertion.


----------



## R-T-B (May 31, 2021)

80251 said:


> I'd like to see proof of this assertion.











						What Seven Banks Have Said About Bitcoin - Decrypt
					

The big investment banks don't see eye-to-eye on Bitcoin and its place in the world.




					decrypt.co
				




A good tl;dr.

While some banks are opposed, many are actually quite invested in crypto in some form at this point.

As for criminal transactions their impact has been dwindling for a bit.  I don't have hard numbers but I am doubtful it dwarfs that of bankings investments in crypto at this point in time.


----------



## Hardcore Games (May 31, 2021)

bitcoin is the criminals currency of choice so aiding and abetting anyone?


----------



## Valantar (May 31, 2021)

Zach_01 said:


> General questions that are not targeting individuals
> 
> Who is to name it one of the worst things that can find a man?
> So is crypto right now one of the worst things in this world? Who named it? Haters? Gamers? Green Peace? Crypto price manipulators? People who do not understand it? Ones who can't or don't want to be a part of it?
> ...





Zach_01 said:


> "I assume that all people concerned about global warming have turned their houses into greenhouses and choose the bicycle for transportation." /s
> 
> I know a very few would do it, but I really doubt it about the majority of the "concerned" ones.


It's pretty interesting to see someone so clearly acting as a spokesperson for the individualization of responsibility of systemic and societal problems that neoliberalism uses as one of its main rhetorical tricks. (Note that I didn't say "argument" - there's no argument present, just whataboutism and a conscious attempt at derailing the debate.)

First, let's do the basics: we are discussing views on a thing in the world. Views are _opinions_. Opinions are not absolute truths - but they _relate_ to truths in various ways. Different people emphasize different relations, but some also simply don't know of some of them. That's why we have different opinions. So asking "Who is to name it one of the worst things that can find a man?" is just ... I mean, come on, you see how absurd that is, right? Nobody here is saying "crypto is factually the worst thing in the world, bar none" or anything to that effect. But some of us are saying that it has many (seriously) negative sides that outweigh whatever positive sides it might have (if any - some of us don't agree that crypto has demonstrated any actually positive sides at all). You see the difference there, right? Please stop it with the whataboutism and derailing tactics. Nobody here is claiming to be the arbiter of absolute moral truth. We're still allowed to have opinions and argue for and against them.

As for this


Zach_01 said:


> What is the world's entire usage of energy and how much of that (in %) is crypto related? Can anyone answer that? I doubt it.


That is actually pretty easy to answer, at least broadly, though of course some inaccuracy is expected. Still, it takes five minutes of googling, at most. Here's a good in-depth overview of the power usage of crypto. As cited there, global non-crypto datacenters are estimated to use ~200TWH in 2021, while crypto is estimated to consume somewhere around 130TWH. Considering that crypto - at best - does _one_ thing - allowing people to gamble on an arbitrary token of value, or more generally exchange those tokens - that is _staggering_ when you take into consideration that those other 200TWH literally encompasses _everything else done on a server_. Everything. These forums, all banks, all retail and online purchases, all websites, all search engines, all cloud storage, all cloud processing, _everything_. And crypto alone consumes 65% as much as that.

Global energy consumption is also very well researched and documented. The IEA publishes in Mtoe (million tons of oil equivalent), of which 1 Mtoe = 11.63THW. 130TWH compared to the most recent IEA numbers for electricity consumption (2018, 1918.8Mtoe) is ~0.582%. So by that estimate, cryptocurrencies consume .6% of _all electricity consumed by humanity_. Please let that sink in for a bit. Because that is _freaking insane_. Compare that to, for example, _all transportation_ (by plane, road, sea, rail, whatever), which is 2.4%. Those 2.4% allow us to travel, eat, work, have available the essential necessities of life (everything is transported, after all). Crypto consumes 1/4 of that, yet does what exactly with it? I mean, even adopting the neoliberal darling, the cost-benefit analysis, crypto comes out looking _bad_.

As for your assumptions about "most of crypto farms outside of these countries [...] using renewable energy sources", that is pure nonsense. You're projecting positive things onto crypto to justify your own belief in it. The energy mix in the US is about 20% renewable, 42% gas, 15% coal and 20% nuclear. For the EU those same numbers are 42%, 13%, 13% and 30%. (No, those don't add up to 100%, there's probably an unreported "other" category there.) (For reference, China is 28%, 3%, 64% and 5%.) There is no reason to expect crypto farms to be better than the average here - they are _only_ out for profit, so their main criterion will be getting the cheapest electricity possible. That typically means coal. So going by their likely motivations, which form the base conditions for their operations and decisionmaking, as well as available energy sources, it's highly unlikely that they are a significant consumer of renewable energy.


----------



## qubit (May 31, 2021)

Hardcore Games said:


> bitcoin is the criminals currency of choice *so aiding and abetting anyone?*


Definitely not.

This is the same argument as a company that makes guns or knives. Both can be used by bad people to kill people, so are the manufacturers to blame? Is it the shops that sell them? No, of course not, it's the person misusing those tools who gets the blame and gets punished. Similarly, it's the criminals who misuse cryptocurrencies who are solely to blame, not the makers of it, or the banks who support the cryptocurrencies.


----------



## wolf (May 31, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> Generated 15 MWh last year myself.


Very nice what system size? I made about 9 MWh off a 5kw inverter and 6.6kw of panels. I LOVE solar. My only regret is not getting it sooner.


----------



## R-T-B (May 31, 2021)

Hardcore Games said:


> bitcoin is the criminals currency of choice so aiding and abetting anyone?


Your confusing bitcoin with fiat/cash.


----------



## 80251 (May 31, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> What Seven Banks Have Said About Bitcoin - Decrypt
> 
> 
> The big investment banks don't see eye-to-eye on Bitcoin and its place in the world.
> ...


How are you going to track money laundering of drug cartels? Or how crypto-currency is being used to fund islamic terrorism? These things are done under the radar and facilitated by crypto-currency.
If you did know, you might very well find yourself D-E-A-D. Drug cartels don't screw around...


----------



## R-T-B (May 31, 2021)

80251 said:


> How are you going to track money laundering of drug cartels? Or how crypto-currency is being used to fund islamic terrorism? These things are done under the radar and facilitated by crypto-currency.
> If you did know, you might very well find yourself D-E-A-D. Drug cartels don't screw around...


Wherever it leaves for cash there is a paper trail.  Follow the crypto ledger beyond that.  It's not rocket science, and governments are catching up with this.

A lot of statistics have already been established on blockchain crime by a few monitoring groups.  This isn't some big unknown, because money laundered is typical money that was at some point stolen and someone somewhere reported the address they had to send to.  Nearly always.

I think honestly it's more a lack of understanding by non-crypto types.  Crypto is not untracable by any means.  It's anonymous, but totally traceable.  I mean they literally tell you where to send the cash when they do ransoms.  Bitcoin is a ledger and tells you EVERY address it went to after that.  Follow the address trail to the point of cashout.  It's actually more traceable in this way than fiat.

You could make an argument against strictly anonymity oriented currencies like Monero, but as far as I can tell you aren't even trying to do that, and it's still no worse than physical cash.

By the way, the nature of how easy it is to track bitcoin transactions once identity has been established is one of the things banks love, actually.


----------



## qubit (May 31, 2021)

@R-T-B I've learned something there.  

Good to know that there's still a way to catch the baddies despite the obfuscation of bitcoin and similar currencies. We're really not anonymous in this connected world if one digs deep enough, lol.


----------



## 80251 (Jun 1, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Wherever it leaves for cash there is a paper trail.  Follow the crypto ledger beyond that.  It's not rocket science, and governments are catching up with this.
> 
> A lot of statistics have already been established on blockchain crime by a few monitoring groups.  This isn't some big unknown, because money laundered is typical money that was at some point stolen and someone somewhere reported the address they had to send to.  Nearly always.
> 
> ...



But you're wrong.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/01/16/130843/cryptocurrency-money-laundering-exchanges/

It could be said that aside from petroleum, the main export of Mexico is now methamphetamine. Mexico is now the main producer of methamphetamine worldwide. Almost 200 tons of meth have been seized at the US-Mexico border. A hundred pounds of meth is worth $4 million dollars. Smuggling hundreds of millions of dollars back into Mexico is hardly feasible so they've turned to using cryptocurrency to facilitate laundering and transferring those funds:

https://www.reuters.com/article/mexico-bitcoin-insight-idUSKBN28I1KD


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 1, 2021)

80251 said:


> But you're wrong.


Just because they succesfully launder money with it, does not make any of what I said wrong.  Actually, your article proves my claims, as it shows the movements are indeed monitored and quite quantifiable.

I know a bit about blockchain.  I'm not wrong on the traceability.  The issue is putting a name to the numbers in a country that cares.  KYC is not a global practice, and not everyone is a US citizen.


To further illustrate that this issue transcends bitcoin:









						Aussie banks laundered $500m for cocaine cartels
					

Sophisticated criminal networks laundered half a billion dollars through nine Australian financial institutions over four years, the Border Force says.




					www.afr.com


----------



## JinuIslife8 (Jun 1, 2021)

when you are caught stealing your neighbor's electricity for mining. XD I hope the miner was charged heavily for simply eating his neighbors electricity cookies.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Jun 1, 2021)

JinuIslife8 said:


> when you are caught stealing your neighbor's electricity for mining. XD I hope the miner was charged heavily for simply eating his neighbors electricity cookies.


We'll just exile the electricity thieves to Neptune. That should cool down their criminal activity to near absolute zero.


----------



## yotano211 (Jun 1, 2021)

JinuIslife8 said:


> when you are caught stealing your neighbor's electricity for mining. XD I hope the miner was charged heavily for simply eating his neighbors electricity cookies.


Send me some cookies, I like the the ones that are chilled by MEGA SPACE COOLED.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 1, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> MEGA SPACE COOLED.


Vacuum is a horrible heat conductor, but I guess if you wait long enough anything can happen.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 1, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> The news coverage of crypto however is as uneducated as ever...
> 
> 
> 
> They got the consumption metric backwards...



Cognitive dissonance may have played a part there. Surely they wouldn't... yes they would.



Hardcore Games said:


> bitcoin is the criminals currency of choice so aiding and abetting anyone?



So is cash.



80251 said:


> How are you going to track money laundering of drug cartels? Or how crypto-currency is being used to fund islamic terrorism? These things are done under the radar and facilitated by crypto-currency.
> If you did know, you might very well find yourself D-E-A-D. Drug cartels don't screw around...



How did they when crypto was not a thing? People always act as if the latest news story is the definition of a new norm. Its not and never has been, all of what happens is as old as history books. Fighting crypto for its 'incentive' to criminality is like fighting the internet because of child porn. Don't confuse tools with people using them, it never works out well and never did. All it leads to, is reasons for governments to reduce freedoms of everyone who's not a criminal and move ever closer into your personal space.

This balloon goes up every now and then. Same thing with 'encryption'. Governments' right to hack, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Say yes and all your personal space and privacy is effectively gone. Do they catch more criminals? Nope - in fact, the level of incompetence relative to the real world is going up with every technological improvement. More legal options to invade lives don't fix that.

Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## yotano211 (Jun 1, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Vacuum is a horrible heat conductor, but I guess if you wait long enough anything can happen.


this cooling is powered by MEGA, its like 100000000000000 times better than non MEGA


----------



## qubit (Jun 1, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Vacuum is a horrible heat conductor, but I guess if you wait long enough anything can happen.


And yet, unprotected, the sun can still fry us at a distance of 93m miles. It's not even an especially powerful star, either. That's mind boggling!

Off topic / end


----------



## 80251 (Jun 1, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Just because they succesfully launder money with it, does not make any of what I said wrong.  Actually, your article proves my claims, as it shows the movements are indeed monitored and quite quantifiable.
> 
> I know a bit about blockchain.  I'm not wrong on the traceability.  The issue is putting a name to the numbers in a country that cares.  KYC is not a global practice, and not everyone is a US citizen.
> 
> ...



Um, 500 million vs. 2.8 BILLION and that's just what's been successfully uncovered. Who knows how much of the hundreds of millions of dollars in methamphetamine sales ANNUALLY are successfully laundered via cryptocurrency by the Mexican drug cartels ALONE? They're not telling.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Jun 1, 2021)

80251 said:


> Um, 500 million vs. 2.8 BILLION and that's just what's been successfully uncovered. Who knows how much of the hundreds of millions of dollars in methamphetamine sales ANNUALLY are successfully laundered via cryptocurrency by the Mexican drug cartels ALONE? They're not telling.


By far, fiat still exceeds cryptocurrency when it comes to illicit transaction amounts. While I'm sure drug cartels dabble in crypto as a side show to make money, I highly doubt they're using it as an effective means to launder money. The amount of money cartels deal with on a regular basis is just too great to be reliably laundered through crypto without raising a bunch of red flags that would lead a bunch of different law enforcement agencies right to their doorsteps.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 1, 2021)

80251 said:


> Um, 500 million vs. 2.8 BILLION and that's just what's been successfully uncovered. Who knows how much of the hundreds of millions of dollars in methamphetamine sales ANNUALLY are successfully laundered via cryptocurrency by the Mexican drug cartels ALONE? They're not telling.


We do know the criminal transactions on crypto for the most part.  We also know cash is far larger than the figure I just gave you.  What was signifigant about the figure I gave you was it was done BY the banks you trust to protect you.  And guess what?  Unlike bitcoin, they CAN alter the ledgers and make it harder to follow.


----------



## 80251 (Jun 2, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> We do know the criminal transactions on crypto for the most part.  We also know cash is far larger than the figure I just gave you.  What was signifigant about the figure I gave you was it was done BY the banks you trust to protect you.  And guess what?  Unlike bitcoin, they CAN alter the ledgers and make it harder to follow.


How do you know? Let's see some proof. You realize Mexican drug cartels are not the end all and be all of organized criminal groups who engage in the manufacture and distribution of narcotics right.

Furthermore:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...e-image-site-with-400-000-members/ar-BB1gjGow



R-T-B said:


> We do know the criminal transactions on crypto for the most part.  We also know cash is far larger than the figure I just gave you.  What was signifigant about the figure I gave you was it was done BY the banks you trust to protect you.  And guess what?  Unlike bitcoin, they CAN alter the ledgers and make it harder to follow.


"We know" then prove it.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 2, 2021)

80251 said:


> "We know" then prove it.


Review the posts I've made please.  We are talking in circles.

EDIT:  Forgive me, that is not helpful.

Start here, I guess, for a more digestable version.  I won't hold your hand beyond this though:









						The False Narrative Of Bitcoin’s Role In Illicit Activity
					

The majority of cryptocurrency is not used for criminal activity. According to an excerpt from Chainalysis’ 2021 report, in 2020, criminal activity only represented .34% of all cryptocurrency transaction volume.




					www.forbes.com
				




The sourced report, taken straight from the blockchain, if you need it:









						The Chainalysis 2022 Crypto Crime Report
					

Cryptocurrency is always changing, and so is cryptocurrency-based crime. Luckily, our 2022 Crypto Crime Report will help you understand the latest trends. Download it in February for original data, research, and case studies on pressing topics at the intersection of cryptocurrency and crime.




					blog.chainalysis.com
				




The highlight of this is that less than 2.5% (thats the 2019 all time high) of transactions are criminal on bitcoin and they are furthermore on the decline, not rise.


----------



## 80251 (Jun 2, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Review the posts I've made please.  We are talking in circles.
> 
> EDIT:  Forgive me, that is not helpful.
> 
> ...


I don't buy into your biased articles, the fact is the Mexican drug cartels are INCREASING their use of cryptocurrency to launder their profits, notice I said cryptocurrency, which doesn't necessarily imply bitcoin.

The currency used on the dark web is cryptocurrency -- full stop. It, and the industries it supports, are facilitated by cryptocurrency.

Just because banks are corrupt, doesn't make cryptocurrency clean:
https://www.businessinsider.com/wha...ts-money-laundering-concerns-explained-2020-9

The 2.8 billion dollars was just what was uncovered.

Then there's this development as of last month:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...y-u-s-as-money-laundering-tax-sleuths-bore-in

Islamic terrorist organizations are also now employing cryptocurrency as a means of financing their activities:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-seized-cryptocurrency-from-three-terrorist-groups/ar-BB17Vq0h


----------



## Valantar (Jun 2, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Review the posts I've made please.  We are talking in circles.
> 
> EDIT:  Forgive me, that is not helpful.
> 
> ...


While I'm not in the "crypto is mainly used for criminal activity" camp, I fundamentally don't trust a report made by "industry" insiders on this subject. They clearly have a vested interest in making crypto appear fundamentally legitimate, and as such cannot be trusted to be unbiased in this question. There are of course also questions of interpretation, such as: how far does the chain of transactions linked to criminal activity stretch? I.e. if you know someone is buying crypto to launder money, through how many transfers are you willing to follow said money and maintain that it still is linked to criminal activity? Does the chain end once the initial buyer sells out? Or does it stretch on? For how many steps? I have a feeling the insiders counting these things would stop at one step, which IMO is deeply flawed, and essentially saying "hey, the money is laundered now, so it's clean!"


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 2, 2021)

I think the volatility would be a bit concerning for most illegal activities. There would be a few drug lords pretty pissed off with what they had purchased if the value drops 50% like just recently. They are only making half their money on what they should have made.

No such problem with fiat.

Edit: Unless they are stable coins I suppose 

Just my 2c : )


----------



## Valantar (Jun 2, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> I think the volatility would be a bit concerning for most illegal activities. There would be a few drug lords pretty pissed off with what they had purchased if the value drops 50% like just recently. They are only making half their money on what they should have made.
> 
> No such problem with fiat.
> 
> ...


No. Money laundering is already extremely lossy, to the tune of 1:10 clean money from dirty being a good outcome. A 50% loss would still be 40% more than with traditional methods.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Jun 2, 2021)

Valantar said:


> No. Money laundering is already extremely lossy, to the tune of 1:10 clean money from dirty being a good outcome. A 50% loss would still be 40% more than with traditional methods.



Gee, if it was that bad a profit I wouldn't be running this type of business.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 2, 2021)

Outback Bronze said:


> Gee, if it was that bad a profit I wouldn't be running this type of business.


Just goes to show how ludicrously profitable organized crime tends to be.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Jun 2, 2021)

80251 said:


> "We know" then prove it


At this point in time it should be obvious without the need to resorting to factual statistics. Physical currency & banks have been around a lot longer than cryptocurrency and handle a much higher volume in the market. Its like comparing a blueberry to a large pumpkin in regards to size. While I think a much higher percentage of crypto overall is being used for illicite transactions, its still greatly dwarfed by the criminal activity with fiat.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 2, 2021)

80251 said:


> I don't buy into your biased articles


Forbes?



Valantar said:


> , I fundamentally don't trust a report made by "industry" insiders on this subject.


You don't have to.  This is like open source, all their claims can be checked on the blockchain itself.

I'm pretty sure forbes thought the same and did due diligence before citing that piece.

By the way, chainanalysis is not "biased."  They are blockchain analysts specializing in blockchain crime and other trends.  Reporting on crime on the blockchain can't really be argued to be a positive factor, or biased.  It just is.  They've issued more negative sounding reports in the past I'm sure you'd love to cite...  but they were from 2019 prior and thus not very relevant to now.



80251 said:


> The currency used on the dark web is cryptocurrency -- full stop. It, and the industries it supports, are facilitated by cryptocurrency.


So you are arguing these industries did not exist before crypto, or what?

The onus is on you at this point to prove that crypto is facilitating growth in these sectors that would not otherwise exist.  The stats I provided point to the opposite:  that the percentage uses are dropping by criminals, not rising.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 2, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> You don't have to. This is like open source, all their claims can be checked on the blockchain itself.
> 
> I'm pretty sure forbes thought the same and did due diligence before citing that piece.
> 
> By the way, chainanalysis is not "biased." They are blockchain analysts specializing in blockchain crime and other trends. Reporting on crime on the blockchain can't really be argued to be a positive factor, or biased. It just is. They've issued more negative sounding reports in the past I'm sure you'd love to cite... but they were from 2019 prior and thus not very relevant to now.


Their judgements and delineations are part of the blockchain? Yeah, it seems like you didn't actually read what I wrote.

An example: if a wallet connected to a known drug importer has 10btc purchased and transferred into it, is that the only 'criminal transaction'? Or is any sale of those 10btc also tainted? If they are sold on piecemeal to hundreds of other wallets, are those transactions tainted? Is spending from those wallets then tainted? I'm pretty much willing to bet chainanalysis draws the line at either the first or second layer of transactions. Which would be disingenuous, as any further trade with these btc would still be trade with laundered money.

As for them being unbiased: the very existence of their business relies on crypto being viable. They are wholly dependent on it continuing. That inherently biases them against any fundamental critiques of crypto, and that is the kind of bias that will seep into judgements and rationalizations way, way down the line.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 2, 2021)

Valantar said:


> if a wallet connected to a known drug importer has 10btc purchased and transferred into it, is that the only 'criminal transaction'? Or is any sale of those 10btc also tainted?


This is explained in their methodology.  Since they are monitoring transaction percentage, not amount of btc, they consider any and all coin movements of criminal origin against the total transaction quantity to calculate their totals.  The actual dollar amount moved is fairly irrelevant here.

This may not be the figure everyone wants, admitedly, but it does provide a metric for how much "activity" is criminal in origin or nature.



Valantar said:


> I'm pretty much willing to bet chainanalysis draws the line at either the first or second layer of transactions.


Yeah no.  They follow it back literally years, even updating 2019 figures recently because more data was made available.



Valantar said:


> the very existence of their business relies on crypto being viable.


It depends on something negative to report too.  See my point here?

This is like arguing economists are biased towards deflation, or similar.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 3, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> This is explained in their methodology.  Since they are monitoring transaction percentage, not amount of btc, they consider any and all coin movements of criminal origin against the total transaction quantity to calculate their totals.  The actual dollar amount moved is fairly irrelevant here.
> 
> This may not be the figure everyone wants, admitedly, but it does provide a metric for how much "activity" is criminal in origin or nature.
> 
> ...


No, it's like arguing (most) economists are biased towards capitalism being inherently good and them being (mostly) incapable of recognizing and fundamentally critiquing its inherent flaws. Which, sadly, is true. Heck, I have an economist friend who was headhunted for a professorate at a young age due to him being one of the _very_ few people within his field to actually think critically - i.e. with less bias than most - about our current economic systems. Education of economists has for decades largely been relegated to business schools, which are inherently capitalist and neoliberalist institutions, with these ideologies completely subsumed into their teachings. Which is part of why we are living in a world with rampant unregulated predatory capitalism and dramatically expanding wealth and wage inequality, as these economists serve to back up the narratives that this way of doing things is beneficial (both through complex research and policy suggestions as well as simplistic moves like convicing people that stock market indexes are a good measure of the health of the economy). There's a reason why we've gone from strictly regulated banks largely serving the public with valuable services, to largely dergulated banks largely serving the ultra-rich in the past decades. This is a willed development brought forth through decades of lobbying and deeply problematic research by neoliberal economists and their political compatriots.

So, sure, they'll always be willing to publish some marginally critical reports in order to convince themselves and others that they are unbiased. But their existence, their trade, their way of life is fundamentally reliant on them not looking too hard at its basis. Which is a very, very bad position from which to evaluate aspects of that basis, and makes them inherently untrustworthy. This of course raises the question of who would be qualified to undertake such analysis beyond them - and sadly the answer is likely to be nobody, as there essentially doesn't exist anyone in the financial industry who doesn't think profits are the main and most important goal of any business, and indeed that profitability itself is a moral good sufficient to outweigh nearly anything else.

It's great to hear that they actually trace things back, but yeah, the amount of transactions is at best one side of the story.

But as I said above, this isn't even my main objection to crypto. That would be how it is a complete and utter waste of _massive _amounts of resources for something that provides _zero_ additional benefits to the global population. No, further enriching the rich is not a benefit - it is _harmful_. Trickle-down economics is after all an outright lie, which has been proven time and time again. As for the democratizing potential of crypto, or how it "allows anyone with a GPU to make money" - yeah, that claim needs some backing, such as numbers of previously non-wealthy people who have had their economic situation significantly improved by crypto. And that number would need to be at the very least in the millions for this to be anything but trivial - there are more than seven billion people on the planet, after all. Bettering the lives of a few thousand of those for the cost of 65% of the energy consumption of all datacenters? Yeah, sorry, that doesn't add up to a net benefit to me.


----------



## 80251 (Jun 7, 2021)

Valantar said:


> While I'm not in the "crypto is mainly used for criminal activity" camp, I fundamentally don't trust a report made by "industry" insiders on this subject. They clearly have a vested interest in making crypto appear fundamentally legitimate, and as such cannot be trusted to be unbiased in this question. There are of course also questions of interpretation, such as: how far does the chain of transactions linked to criminal activity stretch? I.e. if you know someone is buying crypto to launder money, through how many transfers are you willing to follow said money and maintain that it still is linked to criminal activity? Does the chain end once the initial buyer sells out? Or does it stretch on? For how many steps? I have a feeling the insiders counting these things would stop at one step, which IMO is deeply flawed, and essentially saying "hey, the money is laundered now, so it's clean!"


If you live in Mexico and a Sinaloa drug cartel member offers to buy your cryptocurrency wallet for slightly more than its worth do you think you'll do so?

And how long do the drug cartels hold onto said cryptocurrency? It's easy to transport and sell somewhere else. They could even employ straw buyers/sellers. Or alternatively they could use the cryptocurrency immediately to buy something off the Dark Web -- like maybe the chemical precursors to manufacture methamphetamine. Or perhaps just order it direct from the PRC -- the country that sells more of the precursor chemicals to manufacture methamphetamine than any other country on earth.


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## 95Viper (Jun 7, 2021)

Get back to the topic "Naughty Bitcoin miners steal electricity".
Thank You.


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