# Who believes in global warming?



## cheesy999 (May 5, 2011)

It says talk on climate change welcome so what better way to start the forum

Whats TPU's view on global warming and climate change along with all the products etc associated with it?


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## LifeOnMars (May 5, 2011)

I do actually see the logic and the science behind it so it's hard not to believe it TBH. Is it affecting the world currently? I am not very informed about it TBH but I'm looking forward to the views of others in the thread so consider this my subscription.


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## micropage7 (May 5, 2011)

climate change is yes 
but we cant deny when ice in the north pole melt is one indication of the air getting warmer like before
and some inconsistent climate change may related to it


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## Kreij (May 5, 2011)

I guess it depends on if you mean anthropogenic global warming or the natural warming and cooling cycles of the planet itself.
IMO, we could use a little global warming here in WI. It's been rather chilly lately (below average temeratures by 10°F or more).


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## A Cheese Danish (May 5, 2011)

The Earth (and Solar System) are always changing. The Earth has warm periods and cooling periods; majority is based on the number of sun spots.
The fact cows produce more green house gases than all the humans and our vehicles doesn't say much about us affecting the climate change.

It could even be another phase. Kinda like the 70's and loving the Earth and crap. I didn't hear any of this crap growing up (1990's).
I don't really know what to say about it aside from the Earth has always been in these cycles and it will continue for as long as there is a Sun.


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## Fourstaff (May 5, 2011)

Well, I used to believe in global warming, but ever since I see solar activities wrecking havoc I think our "contributions" is rather insubstantial. To me its almost like measuring effects mice have when elephants are trampling about.


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## Kreij (May 5, 2011)

I saw that 4Staff  This is very high tech GN. I think this new forum is going to spark a lot of lively debates, and if we all mind our manners we stand to learn a lot from people who are well versed in a lot of scientific fields.


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## Bow (May 5, 2011)

Its all part of the natural cycles of the planet.  In the past it has always gotten warmer and the ice caps melted before an iceage, but then we are not going to get out of 2012 to see what happens anyway......................


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## Frick (May 5, 2011)

I think it have effects, as everything effects everything in some ways. But I'm not sure it's something humanity can budge a lot with earth hours.

Also, the poll options looks rather "herp derp"-ish.


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## Nick259 (May 5, 2011)

Well you only have to look at venus to see that the greenhouse effect can have a detrimental effect on a planet, however because it is closer to the sun liquid water can't exist. On earth rain can flush away some of the excess greenhouse gasses and trees obviously use some of the carbon dioxide but when we consider the extent of deforestation and the massive amounts of greenhouse gasses we pump out into the atmosphere I believe it will become a problem if something is not done. 

Hopefully nuclear fusion technology will develop quickly in the coming years so we can stop burning coal and oil for our energy.

Ps. It's 'serious'


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## Easy Rhino (May 5, 2011)

i believe they call it 'climate change' now and not global warming. the climate has been changing since the inception of the universe. i do not believe man is having any statistically significant impact on the climate.


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## cheesy999 (May 5, 2011)

Kreij said:


> I saw that 4Staff  This is very high tech GN. I think this new forum is going to spark a lot of lively debates, and if we all mind our manners we stand to learn a lot from people who are well versed in a lot of scientific fields.



That's what I thought, tpu has always been strangley scientific and this may even help us get new members


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## Kreij (May 5, 2011)

I read an interesting article.
There was a horrific outbreak of tornadic activity in the Tennessee valley (USA) area recently.
High levels of tornadic activity is typical of cooling trends (cold arctic are moving farther south to meet the warmer gulf air) not warming.
Warm regions (eg. tropics) have almost zero tornadoes.


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## Kreij (May 6, 2011)

Clean up on Aisle 3 ... back to discussion of climate change.


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## stevednmc (May 6, 2011)

Ibelieve the Earth goes through cycles. I also believe we have to be pretty arrogant to think we affect the earth THAT much. Yes we have some impact, but the earth can compensate for us rather well. I am for recycling and all...i mean why waste what we have? Recycling also creates jobs, but i believe the politicians use GCC as a means to an end, that being power, control, and money. If you have heard of Cap and Trade, and research it, it is really a rather aggresive pyrimid scheme, designed for politicians to make money, along with companies like GE. If you want to use wind and solar thats great, but technology hasnt come far enough for it to be the soul source of energy. We should use all we can develop, if not for the environment but to keep costs down and make energy more readily available. Besides, it will be a loooong time before we can get off oil, just because of all the other products that are produced from it. Ie, lubricants, clothing, plastics (in just about everything nowadays, including that awesome new SSD!), but i think you all get my point. We Should be stewards of the planet but we shouldnt rule our lives by it, and give up all that we have advanced toward.


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## PVTCaboose1337 (May 6, 2011)

Do I believe in global warming?  No.  Climate change?  Yes, just not in the time frame people are saying.  Do you really think humans are going to have a fundamental effect on the environment?  No.  That would be like humans trying to stop an earthquake.  It just won't happen.  We cannot beat nature, sorry!  In addition, humans don't know enough about how the world works to accurately predict these cycles of warming and cooling accurately.  We can ballpark it, but we don't know.  

In short, none of us alive or our children will have to deal with global warming, or even climate change being a major issue as climate change happens over thousands of years, not 10's or 100's.  

Also, whoever made that poll does not know how to spell.


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## erocker (May 6, 2011)

Spelling/grammar fixed.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (May 6, 2011)

Well you know a cooling effect is the end result of the warming? Last I read about it the oceanic conveyor system was already severely weakened compared to a century ago, I think due to salinity.

On global warming... it would be absurd to assume we've had no effect. What's reasonable is to question just how much of an effect we've had and how much is purely natural. 1% or 50%? You'd think we'd have the atmospheric models in place to figure that out for sure by now. Wouldn't be too hard (relatively) to input solar and tectonic factors into our current simulations. 

The foundation for the original skepticism of global warming was primarily based on a "save cash now, do nothing, screw the future" mentality. The moronic part is that the cause is mostly irrelevant. So you didn't have to spend cash to improve emissions, big whoop. An ice age is an ice age regardless of the cause. We have to take control of the weather, leave the planet, or live piled in around the equator. Any of which will cost ass loads of money, you can't avoid that. Unfortunately I don't think people will take it truly seriously and start spending the big money until we end aging. Then people can think of the future as something real, as their own instead of belonging to some faceless fetus army they couldn't care less about.


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## Benetanegia (May 6, 2011)

I don't believe in human induced global warming or global climate change, but I do believe that we greatly contribute to local climate changes (which may actually be worse in combination with the natural change, far worse). It is evident that the large metropolitan areas vastly influence a change in the climate in the area, partly because of pollution, but far more largely because of the highest reflectivity of the materials used in construction.

So rather than a small change in the entire Earth, we are contributing to some huge changes in relatively small areas. And although that may sound like a very small change in the large scheme of things, according to the Chaos Theory a "small" change in a system in equilibrium can actually change everything entirely.

Now is this as bad as the media and some politicians with vested interests say? I don't think so. For instance any volcanic/seismic activity or sun flare, no matter how small, has probably the same effect and those happen everyday (small ones, smewhere on the planet). So are we causing havok or are we just throwing stones at an avalanche? I think that's the question that needs to be answered*, but I think it is undeniable that we ARE throwing stones, so to speak, and if we can do something to stop our own stones, if it's as easy as following some regulations in factories, or not taking the car for short trips, why the hell not follow them and fast and if we don't save the planet maybe we could at least have a healthier environment on our metropolitan areas...

* personally I lean towards the second option, throwing stones at an avalanche, but as I say in the last sentence, if we can avoid doing something that seems not right and what can be changed with some effort on our part, I think we should.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

i am not yet positive that we are the cause, but i like to believe we can find a solution.
there's just so much we don't know, i can't in good conscience affirm something i am unsure of.

but whether we cause it or not, it will affect us greatly, and we need to do something about it.


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## qubit (May 6, 2011)

erocker said:


> Spelling/grammar fixed.



It's still a little wrong. We've got "diffrence" on the second poll option and "seruous" on the third. 

Back to global warming/climate change. The scientists are saying that it's happening at a far faster rate than can be accounted for solar activity, orbit changes or anything like that. You can read a lot about this on www.newscientist.com

Frankly, I don't know what to believe any more. The science has been so corrupted by politics and big money to allow governments to peddle restrictive agendas (anti car policies and imposing austerity measures for example) now, that the truth could be anything.

I do have the gut feeling however, that it's being blown way out of proportion for the above reasons.


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## Lionheart (May 6, 2011)

Al Gore + Carbon Tax = $$$$$$$$$$$$

The End!


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## WhiteLotus (May 6, 2011)

Man has made an impact on the earth. It would be ignorant to think that we haven't. Take a look outside your window. Think about how much materials are required to make a house, then multiply that by whatever stupidly high number, then multiply that by about 300 years.
Man kind will have mined the earth bare within a hundred years, there wont be any more coal, oil, no resources to speak of. Almost all aluminium is recycled already. 

Think about how much fuel is burned in transporting all that food to your table, not just you driving to the shops to get it, but the fuel burnt to get the grain to the farm, then the water to the farm, then food to the factory, then the produce to the shop.

Yes man kind has changed the Earth. NO we are not solely responsible for "Global warming", YES we are partly responsible for climate change. Just think about it.

Take one city, add a few million people with cars that all produce heat, natural weather no longer takes it's own course, new weather results. Another example, take a nice wooded area, cut down all the trees. The weather will change, the trees are no longer there, water doesn't get stored whatever. Man kind has changed the weather. It's ignorant to think we haven't, and still continue to do so.


Edit: Now I await Magibag to come debate this to high heaven.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> Yes man kind has changed the Earth. NO we are not solely responsible for "Global warming", YES we are partly responsible for climate change. Just think about it.



i don't disagree with your line of thought, we simply don't know enough to 
conclusively prove it.  we have not been around long enough, and kept records 
long enough.  geological data is NOT enough to fully understand every climatic change
on our planet.

so as long as we can't prove one way or the other, it's ingenious to say YES, WE ARE PARTLY
RESPONSIBLE.  "likely, partially, responsible"  is as far as we can genuinely, honestly go.


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## Completely Bonkers (May 6, 2011)

We are more accountable for ecological change than climate change. Let's address that issue first!


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## W1zzard (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> i don't disagree with your line of thought, we simply don't know enough to
> conclusively prove it. we have not been around long enough, and kept records
> long enough. geological data is NOT enough to fully understand every climatic change
> on our planet.



we have enough data to conclusively prove that the temperature is going up. there is also a consensus that human induced global warming is about 0.4°C - so far. most also agree that our climate models are not good enough to make reliable predictions, which is why scientists are worried.

very good presentation of the whole topic: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_...d=2010-D-52040|2010-D-69342&semesterid=2010-D
lecture 19. if you want to know more about physics, to pwn your friends and people in this forum, watch all lectures


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## cheesy999 (May 6, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> we have enough data to conclusively prove that the temperature is going up. there is also a consensus that human induced global warming is about 0.4°C - so far. most also agree that our climate models are not good enough to make reliable predictions, which is why scientists are worried.
> 
> very good presentation of the whole topic: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_...d=2010-D-52040|2010-D-69342&semesterid=2010-D
> lecture 19. if you want to know more about physics, to pwn your friends and people in this forum, watch all lectures



i can thank you at the moment cause i'm using my pc

I'm sure i'll get round to watching that after Dr. Who and Russell Howard's good news


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## Evolved (May 6, 2011)

Ya'll should be less worried about Global Warming, and more worried about what's to come in the next several years...


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## cheesy999 (May 6, 2011)

Evolved said:


> Ya'll should be less worried about Global Warming, and more worried about what's to come in the next several years...



why, last time i heard the ninja attacks had been going down in frequency during recent years


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

Climate change is real for sure, the causes of how ever are debatable.

After all we've had both warmer and cooler times on our planet.

It may not be due to us that it's happening now. ( but could be heh)

To be honest, probably not doing our self favours by cutting down so many trees.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> we have enough data to conclusively prove that the temperature is going up. . most also agree that our climate models are not good enough to make reliable predictions, which is why scientists are worried.



agreed.


W1zzard said:


> there is also a consensus that human induced global warming is about 0.4°C


that's what i have a problem with.if our models are inaccurate, how is there a consensus
with a specific number assigned to our impact. we simply don't know enough to accurately
measure that.

i don't debate the warming, i debate the human influenced part.  and it's more as devil's advocate.  

i think it is more likely than not that we do affect temperature.  how could we not with our industry 
and building and pollution.  but what is it that tells us conclusively our impact on it?



W1zzard said:


> very good presentation of the whole topic: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_...d=2010-D-52040|2010-D-69342&semesterid=2010-Dlecture 19. if you want to know more about physics, to pwn your friends and people in this forum, watch all lectures



i will surely watch those.  i love ted and use MIt open courseware often, Berkley is a fine addition


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## erocker (May 6, 2011)

Evolved said:


> Ya'll should be less worried about Global Warming, and more worried about what's to come in the next several years...



Jesus? But he told me to live in the present. Unless you're speaking of Santa Claus, he hasn't visited me since I was 12 and I miss him. 

Anyways global warming is real. We do not need to take drastic measures to do anything about it. I think if we individually gave a damn about what we do to effect the environment that will be all that's needed.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

erocker said:


> I think if we individually gave a damn about what we do to effect the environment that will be all that's needed.



Quoted for truth.

Shame so many humans can't fathom that.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

erocker said:


> Jesus? But he told me to live in the present. Unless you're speaking of Santa Claus, he hasn't visited me since I was 12 and I miss him.
> 
> Anyways global warming is real. We do not need to take drastic measures to do anything about it. I think if we individually gave a damn about what we do to effect the environment that will be all that's needed.



and whether you do believe we are the cause or not, there is no reason NOT to take care.


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## plugugly (May 6, 2011)

The underlying global temperature has continued to rise, despite the fact that solar irradiance for the past few years has been stuck in the deepest solar minimum in the period of satellite data. Once Solar Cycle picks up to a normal level, I think we will see global tempatures rise at even faster rate than they already have been in the past 100 years.


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## AphexDreamer (May 6, 2011)

Freeman Dyson: Heretical Thoughts About Science and Society


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## horik (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> i think it is more likely than not that we do affect temperature. how could we not with our industry
> and building and pollution. but what is it that tells us conclusively our impact on it?



this is what i think and what i wanted to tell but its kinda dificult for me to think in english after a few heinekens.


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## Deleted member 74752 (May 6, 2011)

This planet will be here long after we are dust. One day mother earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas.


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## streetfighter 2 (May 7, 2011)

Just a quick thought as others alluded to on the first page . . .

If the question was: 
*1)* _Do you believe in climate change?_
Yes, anyone who says otherwise is a lunatic.​*2)* _Do you believe in [anthropogenic] global warming?_
It would be an empirical fallacy to say that some amount of anthropogenic global warming is not occurring.​
In a lot of ways climate science is in it's infancy.  Science takes time and contemporary climate theories need refining.  

Whats the holdup with launching GoreSAT?


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## cadaveca (May 7, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> very good presentation of the whole topic: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_...d=2010-D-52040|2010-D-69342&semesterid=2010-D
> lecture 19. if you want to know more about physics, to pwn your friends and people in this forum, watch all lectures




Further to that, although I know many to not like iTunes, I ahve an iPhone, so use it ALOT. 

iTunesU carries many university-level courses, from start to finish, in video format, from universities around the globe. I enjoyed many a lecture while flying across the country earlier this week.



ON-TOPIC.

Since I am one of the most northerly TPU members..well..it's been colder than normal as late, with far more precipitation than ever before. You know the rhyme "April showers bring May flowers"? 

Yeah, try May showers.


Weather, and the sun, is affected largely by an almsot 11-year cycle, and I've lived here 12 years. While weather has definitely changed over that time, until I've bene here for another 12 years, I hold no real opinion on this subject.

Because, really, if climate change data is accurate, we've long since been past the point of no return, and nobody is really making any efforts to negate teh effects daily life has on our environs.

And now that I've geeked out a bit, I'm going to bed.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 7, 2011)

I'm a skeptic because there's really only 40 years of good (satellite-based) temperature data.


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## _Zod_ (May 7, 2011)

Words to live by..

"Don't shit where you eat."


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## Jetster (May 7, 2011)

_Zod_ said:


> Words to live by..
> 
> "Don't shit where you eat."





Genius


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## Melvis (May 7, 2011)

Yes very much so, but the government/me cant do anything about it unless your rich. ($20grand to install solar panels)

I have lived here for almost 30yrs and i can tell you that it has only got hotter and hotter yr by yr, less snow each winter that we basically have NONE now. Also the drought that lasted 10yrs and is technically still going is enough proof to me that global warming is real.


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## Jetster (May 7, 2011)

How old is the earth? How many Ice ages has it had? I think its fair to say its getting hotter. And than its going to get cold. 10 years / 100 years / 1,000,000 years  this is a drop in the bucket in the life of this planet. Maybe we have impacted this. Ok, what we have done to this planet is disgraceful. But it can recover. Look at all the oil in the golf. Were did it go? We just need to use common sense. IMO I dont think we will impact much by buying different light bulbs.


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## Fourstaff (May 7, 2011)

Jetster said:


> Look at all the oil in the golf. Were did it go? We just need to use common sense. IMO I dont think we will impact much by buying different light bulbs.



I didn't know there was oil in golf balls  It just sank to the bottom of the ocean, that's where it went. Just like most of our crap. Lightbulbs will not do much, but in a case where everything little helps, I think it can go a long way in reducing our energy use.


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## _Zod_ (May 7, 2011)

Fourstaff said:


> I didn't know there was oil in golf balls  It just sank to the bottom of the ocean, that's where it went. Just like most of our crap. Lightbulbs will not do much, but in a case where everything little helps, I think it can go a long way in reducing our energy use.



The problem is that sometimes switching to the "energy efficient" product actually ends up wasting more energy and creates a worse negative environmental impact due to factors we don't take into account. Such as the weight of the product and it's size compared to the non energy efficient unit (transportation energy costs), plus the materials used to make the efficient product may do more damage to the environment from extraction and disposal and or require more energy to extract and transport.

So while you can reduce your energy usage, this in no way means it is having any affect at the global level.


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## BinaryMage (May 7, 2011)

_Zod_ said:


> The problem is that sometimes switching to the "energy efficient" product actually ends up wasting more energy and creates a worse negative environmental impact due to factors we don't take into account. Such as the weight of the product and it's size compared to the non energy efficient unit (transportation energy costs), plus the materials used to make the efficient product may do more damage to the environment from extraction and disposal and or require more energy to extract and transport.
> 
> So while you can reduce your energy usage, this in no way means it is having any affect at the global level.



"Green" technologies are essentially just a marketing ploy. You can, however, save energy in more simple ways, such as using natural light during the day, turning your computer off when you're not using it, etc. 

I think climate change is a serious problem, but not an insurmountable one. I think humanity should focus some effort on it, but more importantly focus effort on space colonization, so if we screw up Earth we have somewhere else to go.


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## Sasqui (May 7, 2011)

Sea levels have been rising since the 1800's when they started keeping records.

Personally, I think the globe would be warming even if we never went through an industrial revolution!

*Almost an 8" rise since 1900!*






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png


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## Jetster (May 9, 2011)

Ok, Saying the earth is getting warmer and is headed for a catastrophe based on 100 years of research is like saying the worlds oceans are draining based on 1 hours observation of natural tidal  movements.


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## trickson (May 9, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> It says talk on climate change welcome so what better way to start the forum
> 
> Whats TPU's view on global warming and climate change along with all the products etc associated with it?



I think that it is a way to make money , Truly Just look at all the " Green " this and "Green " that . Not one thing that is made is " Green " It too Energy to make it , It takes Energy to make EVERY THING . And to say some thing is " green " is just a marketing ploy . We use energy we need it to make things we have power plants that create it . If you look at the big picture here we can not change the GLOBAL climate at all really not now not ever . Heat escapes the atmosphere every day all day . I think all this global warming stuff is just a way to sell MORE " GREEN " labeled products . Nothing more nothing less .


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## Funtoss (May 9, 2011)

its getting more hotter in summer and more colder in winter


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## AphexDreamer (May 9, 2011)

trickson said:


> I think that it is a way to make money , Truly Just look at all the " Green " this and "Green " that . Not one thing that is made is " Green " It too Energy to make it , It takes Energy to make EVERY THING . And to say some thing is " green " is just a marketing ploy . We use energy we need it to make things we have power plants that create it . If you look at the big picture here we can not change the GLOBAL climate at all really not now not ever . Heat escapes the atmosphere every day all day . I think all this global warming stuff is just a way to sell MORE " GREEN " labeled products . Nothing more nothing less .



True that the Green Things are more expensive but we need to start a market for Green Energy so technologies can advance and increased competition can lower the prices and help the environment.

With your kind of attitude (no offense) we'll be stuck in the same "stone age" of energy sources for the next 100 years.


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## Widjaja (May 9, 2011)

Funtoss said:


> its getting more hotter in summer and more colder in winter



All choices are currently neck and neck.

Noticed but maybe the World is spinning more on an angle?

I feel there is an issue but it has also been exploited for monetary gain.
Maybe even cheapening the seriousness of the issue.

Personally I think the issue is going to be exploited by people but whether their products are truly helping the environment from the machine which make them is anther thing.


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## wolf (May 9, 2011)

I voted no, I believe we are having an impact on the earth but not as hyped or described by global warning fanatics.

cutting down greenhouse gas emissions, saving energy, planting trees etc are all fantastic initiatives don't get me wrong. but reducing any 'global warming' effects would be just one of _many_ advantages of said initiatives.


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