# AMD Readies Larger 7nm "Navi 12" Silicon to Power Radeon RX 5800 Series?



## btarunr (Jul 29, 2019)

AMD is developing a larger GPU based on its new "Navi" architecture to power a new high-end graphics card family, likely the Radeon RX 5800 series. The codename "Navi 12" is doing rounds on social media through familiar accounts that have high credibility with pre-launch news and rumors. The "Navi 10" silicon was designed to compete with NVIDIA's "TU106," as its "XT" and "Pro" variants outperform NVIDIA's original RTX 2060 and RTX 2070, forcing it to develop the RTX 20 Super series, by moving up specifications a notch. 

Refreshing its $500 price-point was particularly costly for NVIDIA, as it was forced to tap into the 13.6 billion-transistor "TU104" silicon to carve out the RTX 2070 Super; while for the RTX 2060 Super, it had to spend 33 percent more on the memory chips. With the "Navi 12" silicon, AMD is probably looking to take a swing at NVIDIA's "TU104" silicon, which has been maxed out by the RTX 2080 Super, disrupting the company's $500-700 lineup once again, with its XT and Pro variants. There's also a remote possibility of "Navi 12" being an even bigger chip, targeting the "TU102."





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## HwGeek (Jul 29, 2019)

64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.
AMD can use the current high pricing of the 2080Ti, we need to "thank" Nvidia for that :-(.


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## Vayra86 (Jul 29, 2019)

Let's see performance first, somehow I doubt Navi 10 will scale nicely.


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## Manu_PT (Jul 29, 2019)

300w incoming tho, I suspect, wich scares me


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## HwGeek (Jul 29, 2019)

I think it will be RX 5700XT vs RTX 2070 and few days before NDA lifts the RTX 2070Super comes out, so AMD will say that the RX 5800XT can match RTX 2080Ti in performance but at cheaper price of $999 and then few days berofe NDA lifts we will see RTX2080Ti SUPER at same $1200 MSRP.


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## ratirt (Jul 29, 2019)

RX 5800 might be nice but I'm a bit concerned about the power requirements. Not sure if it will be better than 2080TI just hoping it will come close. Wonder if there will be top variant 5800XT. Just like we see with 5700 models. I assume this card will also use GDDR6.


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## londiste (Jul 29, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> 64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.


That sounds very optimistic. On technical side of things resource allocation for RX5700 is identical to RTX2070 (36 CU/GPC) and RX5700XT is identical to RTX2070S (40 CU/GPC). These are not favourable comparisons to Navi, the strength for Navi is basically lower price and going agaist less-equipped competition. RTX2080Ti is a 68 GPC GPU. 64 CU Navi will clearly have trouble competing. 46/48 GPC RTX2080/2080S are more realistic targets.



ratirt said:


> RX 5800 might be nice but I'm a bit concerned about the power requirements. Not sure if it will be better than 2080TI just hoping it will come close. Wonder if there will be top variant 5800XT. Just like we see with 5700 models. I assume this card will also use GDDR6.


For a realistic estimate look at RTX cards - their efficiency is largely identical at the same performance level. Either way, high-end card will inevitably take the 250W TDP.



HwGeek said:


> I think it will be RX 5700XT vs RTX 2070 and few days before NDA lifts the RTX 2070Super comes out, so AMD will say that the RX 5800XT can match RTX 2080Ti in performance but at cheaper price of $999 and then few days berofe NDA lifts we will see RTX2080Ti SUPER at same $1200 MSRP.


RTX2080Ti MSRP is 999$ and current street prices at least in Europe are already below that.


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## Manu_PT (Jul 29, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> I think it will be RX 5700XT vs RTX 2070 and few days before NDA lifts the RTX 2070Super comes out, so AMD will say that the RX 5800XT can match RTX 2080Ti in performance but at cheaper price of $999 and then few days berofe NDA lifts we will see RTX2080Ti SUPER at same $1200 MSRP.



It needs to be cheaper. Reason : ray tracing. And yes, it does matter on the 2080ti. Not on the remaining rtx line up (almost useless).


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## the54thvoid (Jul 29, 2019)

As @Manu_PT says, at what power cost? Nvidia could likely remove power limiters and have hotter, hungrier, noisier cards too. But it's not what the industry wants. Everything is tending to lower power or higher performance at same power.


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## ratirt (Jul 29, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> It needs to be cheaper. Reason : ray tracing. And yes, it does matter on the 2080ti. Not on the remaining rtx line up (almost useless).


I dont think it needs Ray Tracing but it has to be cheaper than 2080Ti for sure and it will be probably.


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## HwGeek (Jul 29, 2019)

@Manu_PT this is exactly what I sad too .


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## ShurikN (Jul 29, 2019)

"Navi 12-san"


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## john_ (Jul 29, 2019)

I guess Nvidia's response to a much bigger and stronger Navi, could be something like 1760 and 1860 GPUs without the ray tracing features. But in that case, it will become much more difficult to promote ray tracing. 

Nvidia managed to shoot itself in the foot with PhysX(they would still be selling a boatload of low-mid range cards if they haven't locked it) and it could happen the same this time with ray tracing, because of the way they tried to implement it, trying to take advantage of the AI capabilities of their chips, something that resulted in much bigger much more expensive to manufacture GPUs.


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## delshay (Jul 29, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> 64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.
> AMD can use the current high pricing of the 2080Ti, we need to "thank" Nvidia for that :-(.



Navi at that price I expect nothing but HBM2.


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## Lorec (Jul 29, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> "Navi 12-san"


How about win7 to win10 upgrade campaign? 
Japanese will personify (animefy?) just about anything  

as much as rx 5800 series may sound exciting, somehow I can smell bbq already. 
especially if they reaching for that 2080ti level...
not like there is any reason whatsoever to move on from 1080ti now.


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## john_ (Jul 29, 2019)

Lorec said:


> How about win7 to win10 upgrade campaign?
> Japanese will personify (animefy?) just about anything
> 
> as much as rx 5800 series may sound exciting, somehow I can smell bbq already.
> ...


More cores at lower speeds could be enough to reach 2080 level and avoid bbq.


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## ratirt (Jul 29, 2019)

The question is if AMD is aiming for 2080 TI type of performance with the 5800. Maybe AMD isn't actually going for the top NV card.


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## Space Lynx (Jul 29, 2019)

I just am hoping for a RTX 2080 Super - tied with 5800 XT across the board in everything for around $599. Come on AMD you can do it!  Let's relive the glory days together!


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## jigar2speed (Jul 29, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> 300w incoming tho, I suspect, wich scares me


Why Manu, why are you selectively scared ?


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## gridracedriver (Jul 29, 2019)

jigar2speed said:


> Why Manu, why are you selectively scared ?



it is know, +300watt invidia are not +300watt amd!
XD


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## PerfectWave (Jul 29, 2019)

who spend 900$+ for a gpu i dont think cares a lot about power consumptionn LOL


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## Imsochobo (Jul 29, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Let's see performance first, somehow I doubt Navi 10 will scale nicely.



as long as they go to wider memory bus and use 16gbps memory ic's it'll scale nicely


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## ppn (Jul 29, 2019)

same bus more cores. ready to be shrinked to 5nm 80% density in 2021.


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## Chaitanya (Jul 29, 2019)

jigar2speed said:


> Why Manu, why are you selectively scared ?


Those 300W for 2080Ti are without using the full silicon. Power consumption would be much higher with full use of Tensor and RT cores which are currently underutilized.


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## kapone32 (Jul 29, 2019)

When you have a super powerful GPU you do not care about power draw. It is not just for mining that 1000 to 1600W power supplies are on the market. I can't speak for everyone but where i live in Canada it is a maximum of .11$ per KWH. The difference between 300 and 350 watts would equate to a coffee and donut every 3 months. In terms of performance, if the 5700XT has 1/2 of the stream processors and is faster than a Vega 64 (Which is about 10-15% slower than a 2080). A Navi card with the same core count would be potentially faster than anything on the market today. I really wonder if this is the successor to Vega and will come with HBM2 memory. Or may be like the days of Tahiti with a 384 bit bus for 16GB of DDR6.


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## ShurikN (Jul 29, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> Or may be like the days of Tahiti with a 384 bit bus for 16GB of DDR6.


I was not aware you could run 16 gigs on 384 bit bus. For 16GB they can run either 256 or 512 bit. And the later seem unrealistic as it drives the price up. Thats for GDDR, HBM is a different story.


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## kapone32 (Jul 29, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> I was not aware you could run 16 gigs on 384 bit bus. For 16GB they can run either 256 or 512 bit. And the later seem unrealistic as it drives the price up. Thats for GDDR, HBM is a different story.



I was unaware that you could get 16 on a 256 bit. I think the price may be a non issue. I know if I could buy a card that is 30 to 40% faster than my Vega 64 for what I paid for my first Vega 64 I would have no issue. I do seriously wonder though how HBM2 would effect the performance of a Navi GPU.


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## Vayra86 (Jul 29, 2019)

Imsochobo said:


> as long as they go to wider memory bus and use 16gbps memory ic's it'll scale nicely



It doesn't scale linearly, and increasing bus widths... need I remind you of what that meant for AMD in the past? A dead end. The writing was already on the wall with the smaller Navi 10. And if they don't pump the clocks, performance will end up lacking.

That is why I'm more interested in actual performance than a bump in specs. History has a tendency to repeat. On paper the 2080ti and a potential Navi upgrade may seem equal, but we're still looking at a node difference to make it happen. Last time AMD used HBM to cover the gap (unsuccessfully) and now its 7nm; this will catch up on them fast.


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## ShieldHead (Jul 29, 2019)

Fanboys are really funny.
Since when do you care for a 50w tdp difference when there is (maybe??) performance to back that up?
Let's all just buy 1030's then


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## Chrispy_ (Jul 29, 2019)

Historically, AMD's biggest dies have had codenames in multiples of 10; Polaris 10, 20, 30, Vega 10, 20 are all the largest dies of those particular architectures/generations.

Polaris 11, 12, and 21 were smaller dies, cut-down from 2304SP of the full Polaris chip to 1024 and 640SP

I don't think Navi 12 will be a larger chip - The halo market is vanishingly small and expensive to operate in. AMD are far more likely to be chasing the mass-market where 90% of sales are with a lower-TDP, cheaper-to-make chip that serves the $200 and lower market, as well as being laptop-friendly. I'm only guessing, but I think that **if* *AMD make a larger Navi die, it'll be called Navi 20, or given an new codename altogether.


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## iO (Jul 29, 2019)

2080ti performance seems unrealistic and potential market for $1000+ cards is pretty small, so 48CU chip targeting TU104 would make more sense.
Those 20% more shaders and a less crappy cooler could put it right into 2080 territory IF Navi scales well.


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## kapone32 (Jul 29, 2019)

Chrispy_ said:


> Historically, AMD's biggest dies have had codenames in multiples of 10; Polaris 10, 20, 30, Vega 10, 20 are all the largest dies of those particular architectures/generations.
> 
> Polaris 11, 12, and 21 were smaller dies, cut-down from 2304SP of the full Polaris chip to 1024 and 640SP
> 
> I don't think Navi 12 will be a larger chip - The halo market is vanishingly small and expensive to operate in. AMD are far more likely to be chasing the mass-market where 90% of sales are with a lower-TDP, cheaper-to-make chip that serves the $200 and lower market, as well as being laptop-friendly.



The current Navi and before that Polaris already cover the market you are talking about. I am sure that there will be cut down cards to replace Polaris once the current stock is gone, but if you don't think AMD will not do it's best to at least catch if not surpass Nvidia's best GPU's with a "halo" release you may not be right.


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## ShurikN (Jul 29, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> I was unaware that you could get 16 on a 256 bit. I think the price may be a non issue. I know if I could buy a card that is 30 to 40% faster than my Vega 64 for what I paid for my first Vega 64 I would have no issue. I do seriously wonder though how HBM2 would effect the performance of a Navi GPU.


Titan RTX has 24GB on 384bit, so 16GB on 256 should be possible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Vya Domus (Jul 29, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> Titan RTX has 24GB on 384bit, so 16GB on 256 should be possible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



You are right. Each chip requires a 32 bit bus, 384/32 = 12 meaning something like the Titan RTX is using 2 GB memory chips. Therfore 16 GB would need 8 chips or a 8*32 = 256 bit interface.

Not that I believe a large Navi would use something like this, AMD would definitely go for 12 GB on 384 bit for the extra bandwidth.


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## ArchStupid (Jul 29, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> 64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.
> AMD can use the current high pricing of the 2080Ti, we need to "thank" Nvidia for that :-(.



Holy delusional batman!


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## kapone32 (Jul 29, 2019)

iO said:


> 2080ti performance seems unrealistic and potential market for $1000+ cards is pretty small, so 48CU chip targeting TU104 would make more sense.
> Those 20% more shaders and a less crappy cooler could put it right into 2080 territory IF Navi scales well.



Well every tech reviewer on Youtube has one for testing. The 2080TI holds the 9 and 10 position on Amazon's top 10. It even outsells the 2080 according to that



ShurikN said:


> Titan RTX has 24GB on 384bit, so 16GB on 256 should be possible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



Interesting that would be using 2GB modules per every 32 bits. So they could do 24GB on 384. Wow when I mentioned Tahiti it came with 3GB of DDR5


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## Fleurious (Jul 29, 2019)

Has AMD said which nVidia card this one will compete with for performance?


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## HD64G (Jul 29, 2019)

Navi with 56 and 64 can have HBM2 since they will be easily sold for $700-800 and the cores are much smaller-cheaper than the one in the 2080Ti. So, from the consumption aspect I don't think there will be any problem. Only thing wondering is the scaling vs the Navi 10. If it is close to 90%, even with lower clocks to increase the efficiency they will get close to the 2080Ti with the full core model.


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## SIGSEGV (Jul 29, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> 300w incoming tho, I suspect, wich scares me



meh...
if it turns out able to compete 2080 Ti Super Mega Beyond Your Imagination Huang Edition in terms of price/performance why not?
/funny


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## ShurikN (Jul 29, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Not that I believe a large Navi would use something like this, AMD would definitely go for 12 GB on 384 bit for the extra bandwidth.


Yup, I was thinking about that as well. 16GB is an overkill, and 8GB is a bit on the low side for a high end GPU like that.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 29, 2019)

60 CU/12 GiB/~15 billion transistors which puts it in between TU104 and TU102 makes sense to me.

Problem is, we don't know if Navi is actually scalable like that.  Navi 12 might just be 48 CU/8 GiB which would target TU104.


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## efikkan (Jul 29, 2019)

jigar2speed said:


> Why Manu, why are you selectively scared ?


He/she have a reason to worry.
And when it comes to power consumption, the main concern for heat, noise, throttling etc. is average consumption, not peak consumption.

RX 5700 XT already consumes ~225W for 40 CUs/2560 SPs, that's going to increase a lot if AMD wants larger dies, or they have to sacrifice a lot of clock speed.


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## Xaled (Jul 29, 2019)

the54thvoid said:


> As @Manu_PT says, at what power cost? Nvidia could likely remove power limiters and have hotter, hungrier, noisier cards too. But it's not what the industry wants. Everything is tending to lower power or higher performance at same power.


All what the consumers care about right now is lowering the prices. Nobody would really care about hotter hungrier noisier cards as long as they are not way behind the limits and nobody would care about cards that have the same performance for the same price



FordGT90Concept said:


> 60 CU/12 GiB/~15 billion transistors which puts it in between TU104 and TU102 makes sense to me.


This! with a price of TPU104 is all what AMD need to get back into competition. İf AMD succeeded the whole Nivida lineups prices will go down. Nvidia will pay the price for making million model-class just not to lower the prices


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## Midland Dog (Jul 29, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> 300w incoming tho, I suspect, wich scares me


2nd card from amd to have a bigger tdp number than die size number scary?


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## ShurikN (Jul 29, 2019)

Xaled said:


> All what the consumers care about right now is lowering the prices.


Amen to that


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## nguyen (Jul 29, 2019)

My bet Navi 12 is a 300W TDP card priced at 650usd come equipped with a CLC to compete with the RTX 2080Super


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## Steevo (Jul 29, 2019)

I'm going to guess it's a respin like the 1800 to 1900 was, 20+% more performance with better process understanding.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 29, 2019)

That would be Navi 20, not Navi 12.

RX 480 = Polaris 10
RX 580 = Polaris 20
RX 590 = Polaris 30

Vega 64 = Vega 10
Radeon VII = Vega 20


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## dicktracy (Jul 29, 2019)

Cool story bro


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## efikkan (Jul 29, 2019)

Xaled said:


> All what the consumers care about right now is lowering the prices. Nobody would really care about hotter hungrier noisier cards as long as they are not way behind the limits and nobody would care about cards that have the same performance for the same price


When you have two comparable alternatives, like RTX 2060 Super vs. RX 5700 XT, the majority of buyers will go for the one with the overall best deal. RTX 2060 Super costs the same, performs practically the same (especially if we consider partner cards), is more power efficient and much quieter, and the list goes on. For AMD to obtain market share, they need to offset their disadvantages with some equally attractive advantages; like significantly lower prices, 10-15% higher performance, or some useful "must-have" feature, etc. Otherwise RTX 2060 Super vs. RX 5700 XT will end up like GTX 1060 vs. RX 480/580 again; 9 out of 10 will go for the Nvidia option, not because they are fanboys, not because AMD's offer is terrible either, but simply because there is an obvious better offer.


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## Vayra86 (Jul 29, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> Well every tech reviewer on Youtube has one for testing. The 2080TI holds the 9 and 10 position on Amazon's top 10. It even outsells the 2080 according to that



Still doesn't say a single thing. Amazon's top 10 of what, sold GPUs? And what % does the spot 9/10 hold? Its less than what the first 8 spots hold... 

Here's a more realistic take on market shares over time








			UserBenchmark: Nvidia RTX 2080-Ti


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## bug (Jul 29, 2019)

Fleurious said:


> Has AMD said which nVidia card this one will compete with for performance?


They haven't, but I don't see Navi scaling much past 2080.


efikkan said:


> When you have two comparable alternatives, like RTX 2060 Super vs. RX 5700 XT, the majority of buyers will go for the one with the overall best deal. RTX 2060 Super costs the same, performs practically the same (especially if we consider partner cards), is more power efficient and much quieter, and the list goes on. For AMD to obtain market share, they need to offset their disadvantages with some equally attractive advantages; like significantly lower prices, 10-15% higher performance, or some useful "must-have" feature, etc. Otherwise RTX 2060 Super vs. RX 5700 XT will end up like GTX 1060 vs. RX 480/580 again; 9 out of 10 will go for the Nvidia option, not because they are fanboys, not because AMD's offer is terrible either, but simply because there is an obvious better offer.


Actually, 5700 beats the 2060 Super in perf/W (by a few percent, but still, it's in a place AMD hasn't been in years). But it doesn't do RTRT (arguably, neither the 2060 Super), DLSS or variable shading. It's still a coin toss in the end.


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 29, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> Titan RTX has 24GB on 384bit, so 16GB on 256 should be possible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



Hexadecimal is key


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## Prima.Vera (Jul 29, 2019)

Are you asking us?


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## Divide Overflow (Jul 29, 2019)

Wake me when Navi 20 is ready for review.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrispy_ said:


> Historically, AMD's biggest dies have had codenames in multiples of 10; Polaris 10, 20, 30, Vega 10, 20 are all the largest dies of those particular architectures/generations.
> 
> Polaris 11, 12, and 21 were smaller dies, cut-down from 2304SP of the full Polaris chip to 1024 and 640SP
> 
> I don't think Navi 12 will be a larger chip - The halo market is vanishingly small and expensive to operate in. AMD are far more likely to be chasing the mass-market where 90% of sales are with a lower-TDP, cheaper-to-make chip that serves the $200 and lower market, as well as being laptop-friendly. I'm only guessing, but I think that **if* *AMD make a larger Navi die, it'll be called Navi 20, or given an new codename altogether.


Small GPUs in laptops are dead, the iGPU killed them. The only laptop GPUs that sell well are pro GPUs or high end gaming GPUs, both of which are dominated by nvidia. AMD needs a big laptop chip, not tiny ones. 

The Halo market, OTOH, is one of only growing sectors of the PC market, along with gaming in general. Look at the cash Nvidia rakes in with gaming GPUs, and tell me that high end gaming chips are not printing money. Sure, they have lots of mid range GPUs sold, but their high end also sells respectably well, and prints cash. Now sure, its expensive to operate in, but any market with high margins will be. You have high risk to go with high reward.



Vayra86 said:


> Still doesn't say a single thing. Amazon's top 10 of what, sold GPUs? And what % does the spot 9/10 hold? Its less than what the first 8 spots hold...
> 
> Here's a more realistic take on market shares over time
> 
> ...


Also doesnt say a single thing. All you are proving is that 336,466 users of UserBenchmark have 2080tis. 

If you are insinuating that 1.8% isnt a good number of users, then by that measurement every single GPU AMD makes has a tiny number of users compared to Nvidia, as far as steam is concerned.

We know the 2080ti isnt the volume seller, but to say it isnt selling well and making money is just preposterous.


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## rvalencia (Jul 30, 2019)

AMD needs to scale NAVI 10's dual shading engines (four prim units, 40 CU, 64 ROPS, 4MB L2 cache)  into 

Three shading engines (six prim units, 60 CU, 96 ROPS, 6MB L2 cache)  with 384 bit bus

Four shading engines (eight prim units, 80 CU, 128 ROPS, 8MB L2 cache)  with 512 bit bus or four stack HBM v2


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## Manu_PT (Jul 30, 2019)

jigar2speed said:


> Why Manu, why are you selectively scared ?



You just made my point even easier to understand. As you can see the only card wich it can compete against, uses 226w, way far from 300w. Thanks for the graph!!



ShieldHead said:


> Fanboys are really funny.
> Since when do you care for a 50w tdp difference when there is (maybe??) performance to back that up?
> Let's all just buy 1030's then



Why would I get a RTX 2080 similar card, using 80w more? Makes no sense to me, unless you tell me it is way cheaper. Wich we all know it won´t be, considering their current 5700 line up prices.


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## ToxicTaZ (Jul 30, 2019)

Once again AMD playing catch up. 

Navi 10 is faster than TU106 Bravo! 

TU104 is faster than Navi 10 (2070 Super) 

Navi 12 would barely match unlocked TU104 (2080 Super) 

As for TU102 AMD has Navi 20 November or later .... Nvidia probably release an unlocked TU102 (2080Ti Super) 

Super is Superior to Navi 
End of Story


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## rvalencia (Jul 30, 2019)

efikkan said:


> He/she have a reason to worry.
> And when it comes to power consumption, the main concern for heat, noise, throttling etc. is average consumption, not peak consumption.
> 
> RX 5700 XT already consumes ~225W for 40 CUs/2560 SPs, that's going to increase a lot if AMD wants larger dies, or they have to sacrifice a lot of clock speed.


That's AMD overclocking RX-5700 XT.

Far Cry 5 with RX 5700 consumes about 150 watts, hence AMD needs to scale from RX-5700 e.g. 

RX-5700's dual shader engines (four prim, 36 CU, 64 ROPS, 4MB L2 cache) with 256 bit bus scales by 2, hence  quad shader engines (eight  prim, 72 CU, 128 ROPS, 8 MB L2 cache) with 512 bit bus config

RX-5700's dual shader engines (four prim, 36 CU, 64 ROPS, 4MB L2 cache) with 256 bit bus could scale into three shader engines (eight six,  72 CU, 96  ROPS, 6 MB L2 cache) with 384  bit bus config.

Scaling just CU count is not enough.

R9-290X's quad shader engines  (four prim, 44  CU, 64 ROPS, 1MB L2 cache) with 512 bit bus is 2X scale Radeon HD 7870's dual shader engines (two prim, 20  CU, 64 ROPS, 512 KB L2 cache) with 256 bit bus


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 30, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> Once again AMD playing catch up.
> 
> Navi 10 is faster than TU106 Bravo!
> 
> ...



Not really, nice try.


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## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

As I see it, AMD has a chance to get closer to 2080 super or maybe even TI. There's still headroom with Navi and the RDNA is not that bad really. We will have to wait and see but I do think AMD can pull this off. NV already released "Super" versions of the cards and I think that is the ace. Not sure if NV has anything more to add to this. Releasing cards within a half a year to jeopardize they previous cards isn't good for marketing and consumers get pissed off. I'd be pissed of if I buy 2080 or 2070 super and then it turns out, after half a year or less, that there are better cards with lower price.
Maybe the trick is to wait for AMD and see what will happen.


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## nguyen (Jul 30, 2019)

ratirt said:


> As I see it, AMD has a chance to get closer to 2080 super or maybe even TI. There's still headroom with Navi and the RDNA is not that bad really. We will have to wait and see but I do think AMD can pull this off. NV already released "Super" versions of the cards and I think that is the ace. Not sure if NV has anything more to add to this. Releasing cards within a half a year to jeopardize they previous cards isn't good for marketing and consumers get pissed off. I'd be pissed of if I buy 2080 or 2070 super and then it turns out, after half a year or less, that there are better cards with lower price.
> Maybe the trick is to wait for AMD and see what will happen.



GTX 1080 FE were selling for 700usd and eventually reduced to 500usd when 1080 Ti launched 9 months later, RTX line up launched 10 months ago. Hardware prices should naturally be falling, there is no point getting mad over something like that. Let just hope this time that the mining era is gone for good.


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## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

nguyen said:


> GTX 1080 FE were selling for 700usd and eventually reduced to 500usd when 1080 Ti launched 9 months later, RTX line up launched 10 months ago. Hardware prices should naturally be falling, there is no point getting mad over something like that. Let just hope this time that the mining era is gone for good.


You can say I'm all but mad. it is not about getting mad but I dislike the fact that you buy crippled GPU and few months later you get a refresh for the same or lower price. I know it is about marketing and getting more cash from customers but it doesn't mean I need to be glad about it and take it as it is. Does it?


----------



## ppn (Jul 30, 2019)

Better yet GTX 280 were selling for $650 and eventually reduced to $330 when GTX 285 launched 6 months later. HD 4870 was the spritual XT 5700 that made this possible. Now Nvidia will follow with a 12nm to 7nm shrink or just rename 2080 to 3070 with another $200 drop that remains to be seen. It is far from over, then we have 6nm and 5nm for sure. NAVI 12 is 170 sq.mm so no idea how ppl think it is 2080 territory.


----------



## bug (Jul 30, 2019)

ratirt said:


> You can say I'm all but mad. it is not about getting mad but I dislike the fact that you buy crippled GPU and few months later you get a refresh for the same or lower price. I know it is about marketing and getting more cash from customers but it doesn't mean I need to be glad about it and take it as it is. Does it?


Do you understand yields? Would you feel better is, one yields went up, Nvidia kept selling the old GPUs?
Better products come out all the time, why rage about it now? Should AMD not release a 5800 in the future because that will screw 5700 buyers?


----------



## kings (Jul 30, 2019)

ratirt said:


> Releasing cards within a half a year to jeopardize they previous cards isn't good for marketing and consumers get pissed off. I'd be pissed of if I buy 2080 or 2070 super and then it turns out, after half a year or less, that there are better cards with lower price.



Like AMD did with Radeon VII in just 5 months?

Things evolve, who doesn't want to be "outdated", better not buy anything!


----------



## ShurikN (Jul 30, 2019)

ppn said:


> NAVI 12 is 170 sq.mm so no idea how ppl think it is 2080 territory.


Navi 14 is the smaller one. Navi 12, like the tweet says, is a big die (in relation to Navi 10)


----------



## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

bug said:


> Do you understand yields? Would you feel better is, one yields went up, Nvidia kept selling the old GPUs?
> Better products come out all the time, why rage about it now? Should AMD not release a 5800 in the future because that will screw 5700 buyers?


What yields have to do with it? I'm talking about release a new GPU but Super isn't anything new. It is same as it was just a bump in cores. I'm not raging I dislike the idea cause it would seem they could have released it earlier. The difference is that AMD release only 2 of Navi 5700 and XT for one segment 5800XT is for higher end product. Don't you see the difference here? they didn't change the entire line-up.



kings said:


> Like AMD did with Radeon VII in just 5 months?
> 
> Things evolve, who doesn't want to be "outdated", better not buy anything!


True. Can you tell the difference between 5700 XT and RVii? Can you tell the difference between 2080 and 2080 super? Please share I'd like to read it. 
And let us compare.


----------



## bug (Jul 30, 2019)

ratirt said:


> *What yields have to do with it?* I'm talking about release a new GPU but Super isn't anything new. It is same as it was just a bump in cores. I'm not raging I dislike the idea cause it would seem they could have released it earlier. The difference is that AMD release only 2 of Navi 5700 and XT for one segment 5800XT is for higher end product. Don't you see the difference here? they didn't change the entire line-up.


Everything.
Turing is a big die. In the beginning, inevitably it has more defects and you have to disable some CUs. As manufacturing matures, the number of defects goes down and you don't have to disable as many CUs to get the same number of working dies from a waffer. So what do you do? Do you keep disabling the same number of CUs just because or do you disable just the number you need and sell a better product for the same $$$?


----------



## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

bug said:


> Everything.
> Turing is a big die. In the beginning, inevitably it has more defects and you have to disable some CUs. As manufacturing matures, the number of defects goes down and you don't have to disable as many CUs to get the same number of working dies from a waffer. So what do you do? Do you keep disabling the same number of CUs just because or do you disable just the number you need and sell a better product for the same $$$?


Sure that is one side of the medal. As you mentioned, the dies are huge, I dont think yields have to do something with it considering how big 2080 super is the yields aren't great and so 2070 are not awesome either. Defects can occur on the wafer randomly and you can't and will never know where it will happen. Which part will be affected. So what is going to happen with the dies that are below 2060 super die size or better 2070 super? (keep in mind it is a different die than 2060 super since it is just like 2080 and 2080 super). So what if it is not 2080 nor 2070 super? It can't be 2070 cause these are no longer in production and use different chip. The range of defects in such a big die like TU104 can be of dozens or even more. On top of that there are tensor cores and RT cores which can be with defects as well. how can you match it up to get the current product line? 
I don't think yields is much of a reason for this.


----------



## bug (Jul 30, 2019)

ratirt said:


> I don't think yields is much of a reason for this.


That is why we disagree.
That and me being unable to follow your wall of text.


----------



## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

bug said:


> That is why we disagree.
> That and me being unable to follow your wall of text.


Well, as you can see, and hopefully can admit, it is complicated. I've got still a lot more arguments because it is not as simple as you describe it. Maybe that is why we disagree in the first place.


----------



## bug (Jul 30, 2019)

ratirt said:


> Well, as you can see, and hopefully can admit, it is complicated. I've got still a lot more arguments because it is not as simple as you describe it. Maybe that is why we disagree in the first place.


Oh, but it is simple. You just need to complicate it because you're angry the Super cards rained on Navi's parade


----------



## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

bug said:


> Oh, but it is simple. You just need to complicate it because you're angry the Super cards rained on Navi's parade


You are adorable  But no and I'm not angry because of Navi  And yet you have just said another argument that popped into my head. Maybe the release is not related to the yields by any means which in my opinion is totally wrong but because of Navi.  well, at least in part.


----------



## AnarchoPrimitiv (Jul 30, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> 300w incoming tho, I suspect, wich scares me



Why? You live in the remotest area of a third world country? The only place on earth where electricity is still expensive?  In America the average is 12.5 cents per kwhr, meaning the difference between 250w and 300 is less that $50 for a year of constant use


----------



## kapone32 (Jul 30, 2019)

For all the people complaining about new releases think how owners of Vega 64s felt when Navi was released. In (unless mining takes off again) the next 6 months you should be able to get a 5700XT for around $300. Or used ones on EBay when the AIB cards are released in a couple weeks.


----------



## ppn (Jul 30, 2019)

Navi 12 is RX 5600, Navi 14 is RX 5500, there is no big GPU.


----------



## Shatun_Bear (Jul 30, 2019)

An overclocked reference 5700 XT is already not that far away from a 2080 so a version with higher CUs/more stream processors with a 150Mhz+ bump to core clock and possibly with addition of HBM2 would blow past that and land in between a 2080 and 2080 Ti.


----------



## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> For all the people complaining about new releases think how owners of Vega 64s felt when Navi was released. In (unless mining takes off again) the next 6 months you should be able to get a 5700XT for around $300. Or used ones on EBay when the AIB cards are released in a couple weeks.


Do you know what it means a new GPU release? What is the difference between new GPU and boost in core number? How can you compare Vega to Navi when these are two different architectures? It's not what it is between non-super and super RTX's. These are the same chips. Turing. 
BTW. I'm Vega 64 owner and I don't feel bad with Navi release. It is not Vega chip with a boost. Although, I'm sure there are people here that will disagree. For them GCN and RDNA are the same.


----------



## ToxicTaZ (Jul 30, 2019)

Shatun_Bear said:


> An overclocked reference 5700 XT is already not that far away from a 2080 so a version with higher CUs/more stream processors with a 150Mhz+ bump to core clock and possibly with addition of HBM2 would blow past that and land in between a 2080 and 2080 Ti.




RTX 2080 woops Radeon 7 across the board then there's the RTX 2070 Super with the same performance as Radeon 7 but at a lower price point thus Killing the Radeon 7.

Radeon 7 woops the 5700 XT across the board.

RTX 2070 Super woops 5700 XT now means 5800/5800 XT are going after RTX 2080 and 2080 Super performance levels.

Leaving RTX 2080Ti for Navi 20


----------



## ratirt (Jul 30, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> Radeon 7 woops the 5700 XT across the board.


Well I wouldn't say it whoops 5700XT but is faster and not across the board



ToxicTaZ said:


> RTX 2070 Super woops 5700 XT


No it doesn't. In some games 5700XT is faster. So how can you say 2070S whoops 5700XT?


----------



## Totally (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrispy_ said:


> Historically, AMD's biggest dies have had codenames in multiples of 10; Polaris 10, 20, 30, Vega 10, 20 are all the largest dies of those particular architectures/generations.
> 
> Polaris 11, 12, and 21 were smaller dies, cut-down from 2304SP of the full Polaris chip to 1024 and 640SP
> 
> I don't think Navi 12 will be a larger chip - The halo market is vanishingly small and expensive to operate in. AMD are far more likely to be chasing the mass-market where 90% of sales are with a lower-TDP, cheaper-to-make chip that serves the $200 and lower market, as well as being laptop-friendly. I'm only guessing, but I think that **if* *AMD make a larger Navi die, it'll be called Navi 20, or given an new codename altogether.



Historically? There was never a big Polaris was a small die that was cut down smaller with successive versions. Vega was a similar story with Vega it was the big chip. The codenames themselves demarcate big/little dies. Navi 12 is highly likely the 5400, 5500, 5600.


----------



## Shatun_Bear (Jul 30, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> RTX 2080 woops Radeon 7 across the board then there's the RTX 2070 Super with the same performance as Radeon 7 but at a lower price point thus Killing the Radeon 7.
> 
> Radeon 7 woops the 5700 XT across the board.
> 
> ...



I meant 'heavily overclocked'. A 5700XT OC to 2000Mhz is faster than Radeon 7 and the great thing is the XT only has 36 CUs. Unless it scales up disastrously, a 64 CU Navi with a high enough boost is going to be faster than a 2080 and 2080 Super (which is just 5% faster than a standard 2080).


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 30, 2019)

Totally said:


> Historically? There was never a big Polaris was a small die that was cut down smaller with successive versions. Vega was a similar story with Vega it was the big chip. The codenames themselves demarcate big/little dies. Navi 12 is highly likely the 5400, 5500, 5600.


So you're agreeing with another of my posts that the codename would need to be different (not Navi) for it to be a bigger chip and that Navi 12 is just chopped-down (smaller) Navi 10 for lower-end cards?



TheinsanegamerN said:


> Small GPUs in laptops are dead, the iGPU killed them. The only laptop GPUs that sell well are pro GPUs or high end gaming GPUs, both of which are dominated by nvidia. AMD needs a big laptop chip, not tiny ones.



I dunno, GTX 1050, 1050Ti laptops are STILL crazy popular and the reason Max-Q exists is because high-TDP chips make laptops bulky, noisy, or both. 1650 laptops are selling like hotcakes too, despite being relatively new to market.

Not everyone wants to spend well over $2000 on a non-upgradeable RTX gaming laptop that can't even match a $500 desktop GPU.


----------



## rvalencia (Jul 30, 2019)

Shatun_Bear said:


> I meant 'heavily overclocked'. A 5700XT OC to 2000Mhz is faster than Radeon 7 and the great thing is the XT only has 36 CUs. Unless it scales up disastrously, a 64 CU Navi with a high enough boost is going to be faster than a 2080 and 2080 Super (which is just 5% faster than a standard 2080).


RX 5700 XT has 40 CU.

CU scaling is not enough without scaling towards 6 prim units and 96 ROPS. Hint; Titan RTX has six GPCs, 96 ROPS and 6 MB L2 cache.

RX 5700 XT has 40 CU, four prim units, 64 ROPS and 4 MB L2 cache. TU106 has four GPCs, 64 ROPS and 4 MB L2 cache, hence similar to NAVI 10 XT.



Totally said:


> Historically? There was never a big Polaris was a small die that was cut down smaller with successive versions. Vega was a similar story with Vega it was the big chip. The codenames themselves demarcate big/little dies. Navi 12 is highly likely the 5400, 5500, 5600.


Largest Polaris baseline IP is Xbox One X's 44 CU scaling with 384 bit bus.


----------



## Totally (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrispy_ said:


> So you're agreeing with another of my posts that the codename would need to be different (not Navi) for it to be a bigger chip and that Navi 12 is just chopped-down (smaller) Navi 10 for lower-end cards?



Yes, I was pointing out that you were correct but your reasoning wasn't. That said I don't understand how such a conclusion could be reached  by the author when AMD has yet to release a complete lineup, and they usually work their way down the stack after a release, then plug the holes if/when practical.


----------



## Juankato1987 (Jul 30, 2019)

I guess *Manu *is scared about *300W TDP, *on non overcloked  cards. 
That could leave to 350W on thrid party cards with more headroom for overclocking.
RTX 2080 Ti is a 250W TDP card and its performance is 34% higher tha RX 5700XT
RX 5700XT is a 225W TDP card, and if we put some maths (134%) to get a higher TDP
we end up with more than 300W, even if perfomance could be linear, wich isn't,
RX 5800 has to become a 300W TDP card to compete with RTX 2080 Ti. 


The table below shows the consumption peak, which is rarely given in real life, 
and is only for academic purposes. 



jigar2speed said:


> Why Manu, why are you selectively scared ?


----------



## Dbiggs9 (Jul 30, 2019)

Lisa Su just confirmed high end Navi is Ramping


----------



## Juankato1987 (Jul 30, 2019)

I thinking about a possibility of 2x Navi 10 chips conected with InfiniyFabric.
Would that be possible?


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 31, 2019)

Totally said:


> Yes, I was pointing out that you were correct but your reasoning wasn't.


You give me far too much credit if you think I was reasoning. Spitballing, maybe


----------



## medi01 (Jul 31, 2019)

ppn said:


> Navi 12 is RX 5600, Navi 14 is RX 5500, there is no big GPU.


250mm2 chip is surely max AMD could do, as else it would threaten 2080+.



Dbiggs9 said:


> Lisa Su just confirmed high end Navi is Ramping


Where?


----------



## Alpha_Lyrae (Jul 31, 2019)

londiste said:


> That sounds very optimistic. On technical side of things resource allocation for RX5700 is identical to RTX2070 (36 CU/GPC) and RX5700XT is identical to RTX2070S (40 CU/GPC). These are not favourable comparisons to Navi, the strength for Navi is basically lower price and going agaist less-equipped competition. RTX2080Ti is a 68 GPC GPU. 64 CU Navi will clearly have trouble competing. 46/48 GPC RTX2080/2080S are more realistic targets.
> 
> For a realistic estimate look at RTX cards - their efficiency is largely identical at the same performance level. Either way, high-end card will inevitably take the 250W TDP.
> 
> RTX2080Ti MSRP is 999$ and current street prices at least in Europe are already below that.



I think what you'll see from AMD is a shift to more shader engines or even a Graphics Compute Complex where groups of 4 shader engines are paired together and selectively cut down from there. With the new primitive unit (and primitive shaders), rasterizer, and ROPs tightly integrated and a single geometry processor delegating and load balancing work to said primitive units, I think RDNA does not have the 4 shader engine limit we've seen in GCN. 

The fixed function geometry hardware is all gone. Vertex, geometry, and tessellation stages are all combined into the primitive shader and those stages are emulated in older games for compatibility (which AMD says is still faster than previous Vega's dedicated hardware ... oof!). I believe the geometry processor can support any number of primitive units through virtualization of work queues, a bit like the HWS does for ACEs. Not much has been divulged though, so take that with a boulder of salt.

So, with a theoretical maximum of 8 shader engines with 10 CUs each, that's a total of 80 CUs/5120SPs or double Navi 10's 40/2560SPs.

That's obviously overkill, so that would probably only replace Vega 20 (if paired with HBM3) for compute and compete with Nvidia's top end Quadros, maybe in 2020 or later.

But, I think it's very possible we could see 72CU and lower configurations with only 6 shader engines, much like TU102 and TU104 have 6 GPCs with varying SMs per GPC. TU102 has 12 SMs per GPC (72 max), while TU104 has 8 (48 max), both in full die configuration. TU102-300 in RTX 2080Ti has 4 SMs, one 32-bit MC with 512KB L2, and 8 ROPs disabled. So, it's 68 SMs rather than GPCs. GPCs are the complete processing cluster units.


----------



## ToxicTaZ (Jul 31, 2019)

Alpha_Lyrae said:


> I think what you'll see from AMD is a shift to more shader engines or even a Graphics Compute Complex where groups of 4 shader engines are paired together and selectively cut down from there. With the new primitive unit (and primitive shaders), rasterizer, and ROPs tightly integrated and a single geometry processor delegating and load balancing work to said primitive units, I think RDNA does not have the 4 shader engine limit we've seen in GCN.
> 
> The fixed function geometry hardware is all gone. Vertex, geometry, and tessellation stages are all combined into the primitive shader and those stages are emulated in older games for compatibility (which AMD says is still faster than previous Vega's dedicated hardware ... oof!). I believe the geometry processor can support any number of primitive units through virtualization of work queues, a bit like the HWS does for ACEs. Not much has been divulged though, so take that with a boulder of salt.
> 
> ...




Is that why the TU104 is faster than Navi 10 hmm interesting. Also TU104 is more complex with 13+ Billion Transistors vs Navi is around 10+ Billion Transistors.


----------



## rvalencia (Jul 31, 2019)

Alpha_Lyrae said:


> I think what you'll see from AMD is a shift to more shader engines or even a Graphics Compute Complex where groups of 4 shader engines are paired together and selectively cut down from there. With the new primitive unit (and primitive shaders), rasterizer, and ROPs tightly integrated and a single geometry processor delegating and load balancing work to said primitive units, I think RDNA does not have the 4 shader engine limit we've seen in GCN.
> 
> The fixed function geometry hardware is all gone. Vertex, geometry, and tessellation stages are all combined into the primitive shader and those stages are emulated in older games for compatibility (which AMD says is still faster than previous Vega's dedicated hardware ... oof!). I believe the geometry processor can support any number of primitive units through virtualization of work queues, a bit like the HWS does for ACEs. Not much has been divulged though, so take that with a boulder of salt.
> 
> ...


NAVI 10 has *two shader engines* with four prim (triangle) units, 40 CU, 64 ROPS, 4MB L2 cache coupled with 256 bit bus.

7870  has two shader engines with two geometry units, 20 CU, 32 ROPS, 512KB L2 cache coupled with 256 bit bus.
R9-290X has four shader engines with four geometry units, 44 CU, 64 ROPS, 1MB L2 cache coupled with 512 bit bus. R9-290X is 2X scaled 7870.

Your  argument for " theoretical maximum of 8 shader engines with 10 CUs each" didn't factor in memory controller relationship!

Each NAVI shader engine has two prim units, 20 CU, 32 ROPS, 2MB L2 cache and 128 bit bus.


----------



## londiste (Jul 31, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> Is that why the TU104 is faster than Navi 10 hmm interesting. Also TU104 is more complex with 13+ Billion Transistors vs Navi is around 10+ Billion Transistors.


TU104 is 48 SM chip, Navi10 is 40 CU chip. TU104 has 20% more resources (everything except memory bus width).


----------



## rvalencia (Jul 31, 2019)

londiste said:


> TU104 is 48 SM chip, Navi10 is 40 CU chip. TU104 has 20% more resources (everything except memory bus width).


TU104 has six GPCs from TU102 with TU104's 64 ROPS and 4MB L2 cache, hence it's half way house between TU102 and TU106.

TU104 has similar geometry power like TU102 with TU106's read/write ROPS and 4MB L2 cache.


----------



## Alpha_Lyrae (Jul 31, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> View attachment 128132View attachment 128132
> 
> 
> Is that why the TU104 is faster than Navi 10 hmm interesting. Also TU104 is more complex with 13+ Billion Transistors vs Navi is around 10+ Billion Transistors.



Don't forget that TU104 has extra hardware too. Tensor cores and BVH intersection/traversal accelerators (RT cores). The 2 extra rasterizers can help in certain situations, but there is a point of diminishing returns. It's best shown off in RTX 2080Ti or even Titan where you have enough shader cores to shade polygons faster and fully utilize the extra rasterization capabilities. I don't know how much of 2070 Super's performance is down to extra raster engines or simply Turing's architectural efficiency (compressing any data that is compressible to save cache/bandwidth and keeping data on-chip with direct read/write of assets without decompression).

AMD's only chance against Nvidia is to move to more shader engines. That way they don't have to push the clocks outside of 7nm's efficiency range (2.1GHz OC destroyed efficiency of RDNA) and they'll gain the same rasterization capabilities as TU102/104. It'll help when AMD themselves move to RT capable hardware, which is expected in RDNA 2.

I'm curious to see what Nvidia does with Ampere. I'm thinking they'll try to at least double ray tracing performance or more. Not sure how much die space that'll take on Samsung's 7nm EUV. All that means is that these higher GPU prices are here to stay. =\


----------



## Ran (Jul 31, 2019)

Noup - that is a false rumour. Navi 10 high end, navi 12 mid range navi 14 low range. Navi 20 (in 2020) will be the one fighting 2080 series cards.



kapone32 said:


> For all the people complaining about new releases think how owners of Vega 64s felt when Navi was released. In (unless mining takes off again) the next 6 months you should be able to get a 5700XT for around $300. Or used ones on EBay when the AIB cards are released in a couple weeks.


There is always the "wait and you get better", but if you do that you never get anything. You need to decide when you need a new GPU and then buy it and be happy with what you have. The meaning of life is not to always have the latest tech. I run AMD 580 and it runs the games I play just fine, no need of a VEGA or NAVI atm. There is some hystery to compare framerates, if WOT runs with RX 580 at 170-210 fps now, and it would do 240 with VEGA.... so what???
Mining still runs fine, the value for ethereum went down, but has recovered a little, on the long term it might give some profit. The uncertainty lies in the possibility that governments might want to control crypto currencies, and when someone suggests that the value fall, at least temporarily.


----------



## crotach (Jul 31, 2019)

I'm sure nvidia will come out with a new SUPER DUPER series to compete with AMD.


----------



## Dbiggs9 (Jul 31, 2019)

in the earning call somebody asked about high end Navi
*Hans Mosesmann* -- _Rosenblatt Securities -- Analyst_
Great. And can you give us a sense, if you can, on 7-nanometer high-end Navi and mobile 7-nanometer CPUs, if you can? Thanks.
*Lisa Su* -- _President and Chief Executive Officer_
Hans, you asked the good product questions. I would say, they are coming. You should expect that our execution on those are on track, and we have a rich 7-nanometer portfolio beyond the products that we have currently announced in the upcoming quarters. Thank you, Hans.


----------



## Totally (Jul 31, 2019)

That's vague af. Sidestepped that question like a boss, probably placated Hans but I would've called her out.


----------



## bug (Jul 31, 2019)

Totally said:


> That's vague af. Sidestepped that question like a boss, probably placated Hans but I would've called her out.


Not sidestepped at all:


> we have a rich 7-nanometer portfolio *beyond* the products that we have currently announced in the upcoming quarters


So whatever hasn't been announced for the upcoming quarters (plural!), is coming beyond (i.e. later than) that.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 31, 2019)

If that's quoted word for word then I'd say they're working on a product that hasn't been announced yet.  Maybe it isn't called Navi, maybe it is but it's clear AMD needs a new high performance GPU product because Navi/Super unseated Radeon VII.



bug said:


> So whatever hasn't been announced for the upcoming quarters (plural!), is coming beyond (i.e. later than) that.


Good catch...yeah...we're gonna be waiting a while.   Then again, AMD never gave the impression of anything other than Navi this year.


Look at it from AMD's perspective: Navi was a priority for Microsoft and Sony consoles.  RX 5700 launch is branching off of that.  Whatever comes next isn't going to be principally designed for consoles.  I wouldn't be surprised if Sony/Microsoft gave AMD a 15 billion transistor budget for the entire package which is why we ended up with a 10.3 billion transistor Navi.


----------



## Totally (Aug 1, 2019)

bug said:


> Not sidestepped at all:
> 
> So whatever hasn't been announced for the upcoming quarters (plural!), is coming beyond (i.e. later than) that.



IN PLAINSPEAK: He's asking if there are any cards above the current above the 5700 XT on the way. Her response is that there are more cards on the way. 

Doesn't commit to anything definite, as I far I'm concerned she's referring to the cards coming in below those two as she isn't lying if they don't release anything above the 5700 XT for the next HALF. If that isn't a sidestep/cop-out what is?


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 1, 2019)

Mosesmann: "...7-nanometer high-end Navi and mobile 7-nanometer CPUs..."
Su: "...they are coming."

"they" = "those ones" = more than one


Then she continues: "You should expect that our execution on those are on track, and we have a rich 7-nanometer portfolio beyond the products that we have currently announced in the upcoming quarters."

Plainly: >RX 5700 XT cards and 7nm mobile CPUs are coming in 2020 or later.  These products haven't been announced yet.


----------



## Alpha_Lyrae (Aug 1, 2019)

rvalencia said:


> NAVI 10 has *two shader engines* with four prim (triangle) units, 40 CU, 64 ROPS, 4MB L2 cache coupled with 256 bit bus.
> 
> 7870  has two shader engines with two geometry units, 20 CU, 32 ROPS, 512KB L2 cache coupled with 256 bit bus.
> R9-290X has four shader engines with four geometry units, 44 CU, 64 ROPS, 1MB L2 cache coupled with 512 bit bus. R9-290X is 2X scaled 7870.
> ...



Navi has 4 shader engines using dual compute units (each single CU is now 32 cores, so a dual CU is 64 cores - 2x32; this is why Wave32 takes 1 cycle and Wave64 takes 2 cycles). Each shader engine has 1 rasterizer, primitive unit, 16 ROPs (4x4) with included 128KB L1 cache for this tightly integrated hardware block.

Memory controller relationship doesn't matter so long as you use a crossbar to connect uneven amounts of ROP and MCs (see AMD's Tahiti). But, 6 SEs and 96 ROPs are evenly matched to a 384-bit bus. 8 SEs would likely use 4 1024-bit HBM3 MCs/PHYs.

The way the image is labeled might open ambiguity, but they show 4 distinct shader engine blocks.


----------



## ToxicTaZ (Aug 1, 2019)

crotach said:


> I'm sure nvidia will come out with a new SUPER DUPER series to compete with AMD.



What for?

Navi 10 is only going after TU106 as it distroyed it! 

TU104 already outperforms Navi 10 and as for Navi 12 if any truth will then compete against TU104 but as for now Navi 12 is nonexistent. 

Navi 20 will compete against TU102 but by then I would expect Nvidia to release an unlocked TU102. (2080Ti Super) yes... 

RTX 2070 Super is the best all around GPU going right now, out of the box can OC up to 2.1GHz which brings it around 2080 performance at a lower price point. Stock 2070 Super is already 1080Ti and Radeon 7 performance out of the box at a lower price point. 

TU104 all around is an awesome GPU! AMD knows this..... Hopefully AMD trys very hard to bring some compition to the table soon and bring those Nvidia prices down a bit more, as there doing to Intel. 

Just think Intel has Xe coming too lol

2020 going to be interesting.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 1, 2019)

NVIDIA is going to have a 7nm product sooner or later.

Xe is the real unknown here.  It could cause a major disruption to the graphics card market.  I'm not going to hold my breath though because Intel hasn't proven their 10nm process will work for large chips yet.  If Xe on 14 nm, there's not much chance of it competing with the 7nm products.

Navi is impressive though.  It's clearly not just GCN 6th gen with a die shrink.


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## rvalencia (Aug 1, 2019)

Alpha_Lyrae said:


> Navi has 4 shader engines using dual compute units (each single CU is now 32 cores, so a dual CU is 64 cores - 2x32; this is why Wave32 takes 1 cycle and Wave64 takes 2 cycles). Each shader engine has 1 rasterizer, primitive unit, 16 ROPs (4x4) with included 128KB L1 cache for this tightly integrated hardware block.
> 
> Memory controller relationship doesn't matter so long as you use a crossbar to connect uneven amounts of ROP and MCs (see AMD's Tahiti). But, 6 SEs and 96 ROPs are evenly matched to a 384-bit bus. 8 SEs would likely use 4 1024-bit HBM3 MCs/PHYs.
> 
> The way the image is labeled might open ambiguity, but they show 4 distinct shader engine blocks.


Wrong, it's two  shading engines.   Your diagram shows two shader engines i.e. count "shader engine".









						AMD Navi RDNA architecture – a GPU designed purely for PC gamers
					

New mainstream AMD Navi graphics cards are coming, but what does their RDNA architecture mean for gamers?




					www.pcgamesn.com
				




*AMD Navi RDNA specs*
_That 7nm Navi 10 GPU is the first RDNA-based graphics chip, and the full core – used by the RX 5700 XT – comes with 40 compute units, and therefore *2,560 cores across two shader engines,* with 64 render output units, and 160 texture units. It’s 251mm2 and has a full 10.3bn transistors inside it. Navi has a GDDR6 memory controller, though is compatible with HBM if needed, and has PCIe 4.0 support too. _


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## Mysteoa (Aug 1, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> I think it will be RX 5700XT vs RTX 2070 and few days before NDA lifts the RTX 2070Super comes out, so AMD will say that the RX 5800XT can match RTX 2080Ti in performance but at cheaper price of $999 and then few days berofe NDA lifts we will see RTX2080Ti SUPER at same $1200 MSRP.



There already is a RTX2080Ti SUPER called Titan RTX


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## Super XP (Aug 2, 2019)

Can't wait to see this new Navi 12 GPU in action. Hopefully AMD puts on a better cooler on it, enough with the Blower Style coolers.
They are ugly and don't work well.
The Radeon V cooler looked Great.



FordGT90Concept said:


> NVIDIA is going to have a 7nm product sooner or later.
> 
> Xe is the real unknown here.  It could cause a major disruption to the graphics card market.  I'm not going to hold my breath though because Intel hasn't proven their 10nm process will work for large chips yet.  If Xe on 14 nm, there's not much chance of it competing with the 7nm products.
> 
> Navi is impressive though.  It's clearly not just GCN 6th gen with a die shrink.


Intel will most likely tap into the low to mid range "Discrete GPU" market. I don't see any high end GPUs from them, at least for another couple years. Unless they have a surprise or something.
I agree, Navi is a combination of Old Tech GCN + New tech combined. AMD did a fantastic job on them. Fudzilla was the 1st to break the news on NAVI and its GTX 1080 like performance for a $250 price tag. What actually happened was NAVI GPUs that actually compete beyond GTX 1080 like performance, hence the price increase from the rumoured $250.

*by FUAD ABAZOVICon12 APRIL 2018 *
*AMD Navi is no high end GPU*


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## spnidel (Aug 2, 2019)

londiste said:


> That sounds very optimistic.


optimistic? that doesn't sound optimistic to me. it sounds like a horror movie to me. the thought of paying $999 for a flagship card makes me shit my pants.


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## rvalencia (Aug 3, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Can't wait to see this new Navi 12 GPU in action. Hopefully AMD puts on a better cooler on it, enough with the Blower Style coolers.
> They are ugly and don't work well.
> The Radeon V cooler looked Great.
> 
> ...


NAVI is not GCN.

NAVI wave32 executes in single clock cycle and wave64 executes in two clock cycle s while GCN wave64 executes in four clock cycles.


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## Super XP (Aug 3, 2019)

rvalencia said:


> NAVI is not GCN.
> 
> NAVI wave32 executes in single clock cycle and wave64 executes in two clock cycle s while GCN wave64 executes in four clock cycles.


Correct it's based on RDNA. I was referring to an older explanation on what Navi could be. 

Anyhow, thanks for correcting me.


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## ToxicTaZ (Aug 3, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Can't wait to see this new Navi 12 GPU in action. Hopefully AMD puts on a better cooler on it, enough with the Blower Style coolers.
> They are ugly and don't work well.
> The Radeon V cooler looked Great.
> 
> ...



Intel has high-end GPUs coming by the way!

Bragin about 3.5 years old architecture 1080 performance is not Kool anymore.

Ryzen 7 is the performance of an 2.5 years old 1080Ti.

AMD is playing catch up....nothing more dreamers.

Want a fast Radeon 7 performance for less price?

2070 Super









						ROG-STRIX-RTX2070S-O8G-GAMING   | Graphics Cards | ASUS Global
					

ROG-STRIX-RTX2070-SUPER-O8G-GAMING




					www.asus.com
				




Can't wait for the Techpowerup Review on the ROG-STRIX-RTX2070S-O8G- ! 

This is faster than Navi 10


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## Super XP (Aug 3, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> View attachment 128356
> 
> Intel has high-end GPUs coming by the way!
> 
> ...


You probably got confused. But how is a Ryzen 7 and a 1080 compared? Where one is a CPU and the other a GPU? Lol

AMD isn't playing catch up. They rule the CPU industry once again. The last time they achieved this was with the Athlon and Athlon 64. 

AMDs Navi RDNA GPU is doing quite well in performance.  Nvidia has the fastest GPU that's Overpriced. What people don't understand is it takes years for a new micro-Architecture. That is what AMDs been working on. They did it with the CPU and they are almost complete with the GPU...


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## medi01 (Aug 3, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> Intel has high-end GPUs coming by the way!


No, they have something rather cheap ($200) coming, according to Raja. (something with HBM in it, for enterprise)


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## Super XP (Aug 6, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> 64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.
> AMD can use the current high pricing of the 2080Ti, we need to "thank" Nvidia for that :-(.


Absolutely not for $999, because we all know the 2080 Ti is OVERPRICED to begin with. The 2080Ti is only worth about $699 MAX. Which makes all Nvidia cards Overpriced.


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## bug (Aug 6, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Absolutely not for $999, because we all know the 2080 Ti is OVERPRICED to begin with. *The 2080Ti is only worth about $699 MAX*. Which makes all Nvidia cards Overpriced.


To you, maybe. Obviously there are some that think that's the right price for 2080Ti, since they're buying the cards.
This may sound strange to you, but in a free market the price of goods is not dictated by the BOM. The price of goods is the one the seller is willing to accept and the buyer is willing to pay.


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## Super XP (Aug 7, 2019)

bug said:


> To you, maybe. Obviously there are some that think that's the right price for 2080Ti, since they're buying the cards.
> This may sound strange to you, but in a free market the price of goods is not dictated by the BOM. The price of goods is the one the seller is willing to accept and the buyer is willing to pay.


Hence the LOW 2080ti sales. Though the high price was due to lack of competition in the high end segment.


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## bug (Aug 7, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Hence the LOW 2080ti sales. Though the high price was due to lack of competition in the high end segment.


As opposed to other high-end cards that usually sell en-masse?
The point is, whatever cards Nvidia makes, they sell. They're not catching dust on shelves.


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## medi01 (Aug 7, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Though the high price was due to lack of competition in the high end segment.


Or also because it is a 750mm2 monster chip.


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## bug (Aug 7, 2019)

medi01 said:


> Or also because it is a 750mm2 monster chip.


A combination of both. I'm pretty sure Nvidia would have sold that for much less (or didn't release it at all) if AMD was active in that segment. Of course, since I don't consider buying cards that cost half as much, I'm just enjoying my popcorn from the sidelines


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## Majin_Sam (Aug 18, 2019)

bug said:


> To you, maybe. Obviously there are some that think that's the right price for 2080Ti, since they're buying the cards.
> This may sound strange to you, but in a free market the price of goods is not dictated by the BOM. The price of goods is the one the seller is willing to accept and the buyer is willing to pay.



...yea but thats got nothing to do w the value of a product. Nvidia has been padding their pockets for years at the expense of its customers and its only because AMD couldnt compete at the high end. Per frame, anything past a 60 series Nvidia GPU is a bad, bad value.



Totally said:


> That's vague af. Sidestepped that question like a boss, probably placated Hans but I would've called her out.



She said theyre coming...and that future products beyond that are coming...whats she supposed to do, throw down the target specs and release dates out prematurely so Nvidia can beat them to the table with a 1680 Super Duper Ti?

A Navi 12 die wouldnt be any worse for efficiency as a fully equipped TU104. Nvidia fans, especially the RTX buyers (im one), are going to feel real dumb pretty soon. Worse than "ga-hyuck, I just bought a 9900k at full retail" kind of dumb. A 5800 series will compete at high end, and it doesnt even have to better, or even as good, because its not going to cost $1400. Its not going to be $999. AMD has the taste for blood and for once its not from being punched in the mouf so think like...$699...maybe $799. Boom. Now either Nvidia has to double down on RTX and expedite it to mainstream (spending billions), slash RTX prices to compete (pissing us off), or RTX gets killed for the foreseeable future and we go back to good ol' rasteurization horsepower, and hello GTX 1180, 1680, 1780, whatever. Thats whats about to happen.



ToxicTaZ said:


> What for?
> 
> Navi 10 is only going after TU106 as it distroyed it!
> 
> ...



Daaah, Navi 10 achieves near parity to TU104...albeit the diet version. I dont know about a 2080 Super Ti or anything...maybe a new GTX line...


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## Super XP (Aug 18, 2019)

Nvidia's RTX was a commercial failure. AMD has a huge opportunity to take back GPU market share.


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## bug (Aug 18, 2019)

Majin_Sam said:


> ...yea but thats got nothing to do w the value of a product. Nvidia has been padding their pockets for years at the expense of its customers and its only because AMD couldnt compete at the high end. Per frame, anything past a 60 series Nvidia GPU is a bad, bad value.


You can argue that about pretty much anything, Here: Mercedes has been padding their pockets for years because anything past C Classe is a bad, bad value.
There's always a sweet spot and going beyond that means you're into diminishing ROI territory. As you can, I always use a mid-range card, but at the same rime I'm aware that card is made possible, in part, by those that have been buying high end parts. That's just how it works.
That said, yes, I would hate to see another 2080Ti.





Majin_Sam said:


> Daaah, Navi 10 achieves near parity to TU104...albeit the diet version. I dont know about a 2080 Super Ti or anything...maybe a new GTX line...


Navi has closed most of the gap with Turing, but it still has a major drawback: it's 7nm on par with Nvidia's 12nm. Nvidia only has to move to 7nm and then...

PS Welcome to TPU.


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## ToxicTaZ (Aug 19, 2019)

Majin_Sam said:


> ...yea but thats got nothing to do w the value of a product. Nvidia has been padding their pockets for years at the expense of its customers and its only because AMD couldnt compete at the high end. Per frame, anything past a 60 series Nvidia GPU is a bad, bad value.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Navi 12 if real be lucky to have 2080 performance. 2080 Super will outperform Navi 12 as 2070 Super did with Navi 10.

Im an proud owner of an 2080 NVlink setup..... So far distroyed Radeon 7 and both 5700 and 5700 XT. Would say a good start for the year!

"Super" is super binned superior high-yielding GPU with top notch Turning architecture!

Happy first birthday Turning!


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## Majin_Sam (Aug 21, 2019)

ToxicTaZ said:


> Navi 12 if real be lucky to have 2080 performance. 2080 Super will outperform Navi 12 as 2070 Super did with Navi 10.
> 
> Im an proud owner of an 2080 NVlink setup..... So far distroyed Radeon 7 and both 5700 and 5700 XT. Would say a good start for the year!
> 
> ...


 
We shall see but i have a big feeling thats wrong. I think 2 skus with larger Navi dies will release and theyll both target the 2080 and 2080 Ti. As I said they only have to come within a certain percentage because theyll cost half the price. They already got in the ballpark with Radeon 7, its not hard to fathom...if they come within even 20% of a 2080 Ti at half the cost...thats fini for RTX until its mainstream AND can do more than 60 or so frames. Or at the least, they slash prices and you wake up to find your beloved investment worth a fraction it was the week before.


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## Super XP (Sep 19, 2019)

HwGeek said:


> 64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.
> AMD can use the current high pricing of the 2080Ti, we need to "thank" Nvidia for that :-(.


No it cannot be sold for $999, because you are assuming Nvidia's RTX 2080Ti is fairly priced, which in fact it is well OVERPRICED. 
Actually 99% of all Nvidia GPUs are OverPriced. The absolute maximum price tag for the high end GPU, regardless of who makes it shouldn't exceed $699usd period. 
In order to ensure these companies comply with this requirement, stop buying GPUs that are overpriced. This will force them to fairly price them.


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## bug (Sep 19, 2019)

Super XP said:


> No it cannot be sold for $999, because you are assuming Nvidia's RTX 2080Ti is fairly priced, which in fact it is well OVERPRICED.
> Actually 99% of all Nvidia GPUs are OverPriced. The absolute maximum price tag for the high end GPU, regardless of who makes it shouldn't exceed $699usd period.
> In order to ensure these companies comply with this requirement, stop buying GPUs that are overpriced. This will force them to fairly price them.


The beauty of the term "overpriced" is that it's defined as "something that is priced too high", without saying in relation to what.


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## medi01 (Sep 20, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Nvidia's RTX was a commercial failure. AMD has a huge opportunity to take back GPU market share.


Which, based on recent report, is at about 33% anyway, and not what steam was showing.


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## bug (Sep 20, 2019)

medi01 said:


> Which, based on recent report, is at about 33% anyway, and not what steam was showing.


What the hell, make it 133% if you're not going to source that number.


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