# Health , Medical ;



## dont whant to set it"' (Aug 18, 2019)

If this topic is not suited for the forum subsection......









						Mystery lung illness linked to vaping reported in nearly 100 people
					

Medical authorities say it is unclear whether patients will fully recover




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Remember that scientist from the "Thank you for smoking" film , some say it's the "Stig".


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## dont whant to set it"' (Aug 24, 2019)

First death linked to vaping reported in Illinois
					

The Illinois case comes as US health officials track 193 cases of a lung illness reported by vapers.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



Why go all the trouble to vape good ganja ?, potentially spoiling it it's beyond me.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 24, 2019)

Kinda what I've always thought wrt vaping and e-cigs. Can't be healthier than normal smoking. And its not. I'll take the slow creeping death over the sudden one, thanks 

Doesn't change the habit being bad of course, but so are many habits.


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## silentbogo (Aug 24, 2019)

Haven't tried these "sigs for kids"... too skeptical, especially since e-sigs and vape aren't regulated at all.
My younger bro quit vaping and "regressed" back to smoking a couple of years ago. Vape gave him lung irritation and slight pain in the chest area. Doctors said that everything is fine, and there is nothing they could find to attribute to this (not even slight bronchi/lung inflammation). As soon as he stopped vaping - all symptoms went away within a couple of days and never came back until he tried vaping again last summer.
I'm a smoker myself, but at least I know what's in my cigarettes and where they came from.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 24, 2019)

Vaping is a meme anyway.


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## authorized (Aug 24, 2019)

Nothing else than fearmongering. Perhaps they were vaping some weird shit and that's what made them ill, just like it sometimes happens with contaminated drugs.
Nearly 100 cases of mysterious illness _possibly linked_ to vaping vs many millions vapers in the world, somehow I'm not convinced. If there are still undiscovered harmful effects, discover them and present specific information.

@silentbogo 
I doubt you know all the toxins and other substances that are in your fags, there are hundreds if not thousands of them.


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## Vario (Aug 24, 2019)

Vapers will be in denial that their chosen past time is harmful to their health.   You haven't really "quit" if you switched from tobacco to vapor.  You just substituted one addiction for another.  The trouble with vaping is its even easier and socially acceptable to consume large quantities of chemicals in a shorter period in any place at any time.  Its easy to reach high levels of hourly nicotine intake.  One can vape pretty much non stop, consuming greater amounts of nicotine than possible with smoking cigarettes, and subsequently quitting vaping and nicotine products all together will become more difficult (truly quitting, not substituting vaping with cigarettes, chew, cigars, patch, gum, etc).


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## authorized (Aug 24, 2019)

It's not denial when there is nothing substantial to deny. And the argument is not that vaping is harmless, but rather that it is a less harmful alternative to smoking. Also, it's not another addiction, it's the very same one, nicotine.
You must have never been a smoker or vaper if you believe you can do either non-stop. You feel unwell and get headaches with too large amounts of nicotine in your body.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 24, 2019)

I watched a video on smoking and vaping, vaping is for those who want to quit smoking, it is a little safer, however those who never smoked to begin with shouldn't smoke or vape anyway. Our lungs weren't created to hold smoke, water, vapors, only gaseous form of oxygen & nitrogen


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## the54thvoid (Aug 24, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> I watched a video on smoking and vaping, vaping is for those who want to quit smoking, it is a little safer, however those who never smoked to begin with shouldn't smoke or vape anyway. Our lungs weren't created to hold smoke, water, vapors, only gaseous form of oxygen & nitrogen



Pretty much bang on.

Edit: should also say, it's not really the nicotine that makes cigarettes so nasty. As mentioned, the thousands of other chemicals and the other evil stuff... tar.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> Nothing else than fearmongering. Perhaps they were vaping some weird shit and that's what made them ill, just like it sometimes happens with contaminated drugs.
> Nearly 100 cases of mysterious illness _possibly linked_ to vaping vs many millions vapers in the world, somehow I'm not convinced. If there are still undiscovered harmful effects, discover them and present specific information.
> 
> @silentbogo
> I doubt you know all the toxins and other substances that are in your fags, there are hundreds if not thousands of them.



No its not fearmongering; it was always known these products contained chemicals of which the health implications were largely unknown and in sufficient quantities, harmful. Now some time has passed and I can guarantee you, there will be more deaths like these.

The product is not regulated or controlled like tobacco, and remember, we used to think tobacco was harmless as well. Same sort of lobby, too. Make no mistake, if medical investigations determine these effects, they simply apply to the product - not to the person who may or may not suffer from it.

Whether or not you die from vapin or smoking is influenced by an endless amount of other influences and lifestyle. But we can still say neither makes you healthier and we KNOW they both increase health risk.

All the other noise only serves to please addicts in their idea that they can keep doing what they do. Note: Im a smoker too. But Im not blinding myself from the obvious truth and health risks, but choose to face them and accept them. No point in lying to yourself.


Oh, and about doing it nonstop and feeling unwell.. I have seen too many examples of people doing exactly that allday every day, and they do 'fine' in their own version of reality.


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## Zareek (Aug 24, 2019)

I think doing or consuming anything excessively is unhealthy. I also know that big tobacco companies have spent billions of dollars vilifying and lobbying against vaping. It is prudent to question anything and everything on the subject because of that alone.

In the end I'm not surprised that people who are purposely inhaling artificial vapors into their lungs for recreation or as an alternative to another addictive habit are having problems because of it.

In the interest of being completely transparent, I quit smoking almost 19 years ago. I tried vaping and I like it too much, so I quit that too. If I can't take part in something in moderation I give it up. The one exception is eating. I still haven't figured out a way to give up eating completely and still remain living, so I'm trying my best to do that in moderation...


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## authorized (Aug 24, 2019)

@Vayra86
I don't think it's the same kind of lobbying at all. Big tobacco is a filthy rich conglomerate. What are the big, rich companies lobbying for e-cigs?
Also worth to note that big tobacco, while engaging propaganda war against new competition, is at the same time investing into their own vaping products. It's pure business for them, nothing else, they're doing it to take over as much of this new market as they can.

There's hardly any point in regulations when the end product is toxic anyway. What are they regulating really, how much poisonous it is? It's a little absurd, don't you think?
In the end, you prefer the product that is harmful to you _for certain_, rather than one that _might_ have unknown, yet undiscovered risks associated with it.


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## Vario (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> It's not denial when there is nothing substantial to deny. And the argument is not that vaping is harmless, but rather that it is a less harmful alternative to smoking. Also, it's not another addiction, it's the very same one, nicotine.


Exactly my point. But there are those that habitually vape that say "vaping helped me quit smoking", a form of denial about their own nicotine addiction.  Or those that deny that vaping is harmful.  Downplay the ancillary risk of heated propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine, heavy metals in chinese made coils, exploding batteries, food flavorings not intended for lungs, and nicotine itself.  The argument that cigarettes are bad, therefore vaping must be less bad is foolish.  They are both bad.  Both are entirely optional for life.  You do not need a nicotine addiction to live.  Life is not a binary choice between vaping or smoking.  Its a false dichotomy.



> You must have never been a smoker or vaper if you believe you can do either non-stop. You feel unwell and get headaches with too large amounts of nicotine in your body.


When I was a young adult, I smoked cigars and cigarettes occasionally at social gatherings and they didn't make me want to pursue an addiction, I know enough about the health risks of smoking, and the the taste and smell was disgusting, lastly I didn't want to waste money on it.  Smoking a cigar gives that feeling of overstimulation from the amount of nicotine in it.  However, tolerance rises with use and I would bet that habitual vapers are intaking more nicotine then they would otherwise with cigarettes because there is less of a limitation on its use: Its cheaper, less stigmatized, more hygenic, and can be used inside.  The addition of candy flavorings improving the taste, and the attraction of electronics gizmos also increases the appeal of use compared to cigarettes.


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## Zareek (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> @Vayra
> I don't think it's the same kind of lobbying at all. Big tobacco is a filthy rich conglomerate. What are the big, rich companies lobbying for e-cigs?
> Also worth to note that big tobacco, while engaging propaganda war against new competition, is at the same time investing into their own vaping products. It's pure business for them, nothing else, they're doing it to take over as much of this new market as they can.


It's totally true and in many ways worse. Like how tobacco companies refined tobacco and added additional nicotine to make them more addictive, their e-cigs are easier to use, typically disposable and have much higher nicotine concentrations than the alternatives.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 24, 2019)

I literally quit smoking by vaping.
I smoked for 20 years and switched to a Vuse Vibe and after a year of that I went to a "Vape Kit" and that's when I gave up nicotine... I felt so shitty after a week I decided nicotine wasn't worth it anymore and just quit.
Any time I got a real bad craving for the feel of a draw or started feeling severely diva-ish I'd smoke a thin joint (Pinner) of some weak as marijuana and that would keep me calm.


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## Vario (Aug 24, 2019)

I've played online games (another addiction for some people) with gamers that vape constantly like every minute on the minute, sometimes even more frequently, evidenced with an open microphone on discord/teamspeak, there are people that consume this stuff non stop.



jmcslob said:


> I literally quit smoking by vaping.
> I smoked for 20 years and switched to a Vuse Vibe and after a year of that I went to a "Vape Kit" and that's when I gave up nicotine... I felt so shitty after a week I decided nicotine wasn't worth it anymore and just quit.
> Any time I got a real bad craving for the feel of a draw or started feeling severely diva-ish I'd smoke a thin joint (Pinner) of some weak as marijuana and that would keep me calm.



Nice job man.


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## Zareek (Aug 24, 2019)

Vario said:


> Exactly my point. But there are those that say "vaping helped me quit smoking", a form of denial about their own nicotine addiction.  Or those that deny that vaping is harmful.  Downplay the ancillary risk of heated propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine, heavy metals in chinese made coils, exploding batteries, food flavorings not intended for lungs, and nicotine itself.  The argument that cigarettes are bad, therefore vaping must be less bad is foolish.  They are both bad.  Both are entirely optional for life.  You do not need a nicotine addiction to live.  Life is not a binary choice between vaping or smoking.  Its a false dichotomy.
> 
> 
> When I was a young adult, I smoked cigars and cigarettes occasionally at social gatherings and they didn't make me want to pursue an addiction, I know enough about the health risks of smoking, and the the taste and smell was disgusting, lastly I didn't want to waste money on it.  Smoking a cigar gives that feeling of overstimulation from the amount of nicotine in it.  However, tolerance rises with use and I would bet that habitual vapers are intaking more nicotine then they would otherwise with cigarettes because there is less of a limitation on its use: Its cheaper, less stigmatized, more hygenic, and can be used inside.  The addition of candy flavorings improving the taste, and the attraction of electronics gizmos also increases the appeal of use.


Yes and no... Vaping is definitely easier to get off and ween yourself off of. You can also go the flip side and really consume a lot more nicotine. Tobacco has tar and is loaded with known carcinogens. PG and VG have not been scientifically linked to anything anywhere near as bad. Just like anything made in China off-label there are risks. There are also reputable vendors. That goes for coils, batteries, vape juice, pretty much everything. Anything in excess is bad. You can die from drinking too much water! There is little doubt that vaping is better for you than smoking although having less down sides and variable flavor choices may actually make it more addictive if you add nicotine as well.


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## Vario (Aug 24, 2019)

Zareek said:


> Yes and no... Vaping is definitely easier to get off and ween yourself off of. You can also go the flip side and really consume a lot more nicotine. Tobacco has tar and is loaded with known carcinogens. PG and VG have not been scientifically linked to anything anywhere near as bad. Just like anything made in China off-label there are risks. There are also reputable vendors. That goes for coils, batteries, vape juice, pretty much everything. Anything in excess is bad. You can die from drinking too much water! There is little doubt that vaping is better for you than smoking although having less down sides and variable flavor choices may actually make it more addictive if you add nicotine as well.


Its absurd to bring up drinking excess water, something no one would do.  It is absurd additionally as water is a necessity for life, while nicotine inhalation is not necessary for life.

PG, VG, and flavoring agents all contribute to toxic aldehyde production which causes lung damage.
Nicotine causes cardiovascular damage.

*A Review of Pulmonary Toxicity of Electronic Cigarettes In The Context of Smoking: A Focus On Inflammation*








						A Review of Pulmonary Toxicity of Electronic Cigarettes In The Context of Smoking: A Focus On Inflammation
					

The use of electronic cigarettes (e-cigs) is increasing rapidly, but their effects on lung toxicity are largely unknown. Smoking is a well-established cause of lung cancer and respiratory disease, in part through inflammation. It is plausible that e-cig ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



*Comparison of the effects of e-cigarette vapor with cigarette smoke on lung function and inflammation in mice.*








						Comparison of the effects of e-cigarette vapor with cigarette smoke on lung function and inflammation in mice - PubMed
					

Electronic cigarettes (e-cigs) are advertised as a less harmful nicotine delivery system or as a new smoking cessation tool. We aimed to assess the in vivo effects of e-cig vapor in the lung and to compare them to those of cigarette smoke (CS). We exposed C57BL/6 mice for either 3 days or 4 wk...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



*The toxic potential of a fourth-generation E-cigarette on human lung cell lines and tissue explants.*








						The toxic potential of a fourth-generation E-cigarette on human lung cell lines and tissue explants - PubMed
					

The use of electronic cigarettes (E-cigs) is rapidly increasing. The latest generation of E-cigs is highly customizable, allowing for high heating coil temperatures. The aim of this study was to assess the toxic potential of a fourth-generation E-cig. Aerosols generated from E-liquid with (24...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



*The customizable e-cigarette resistance influences toxicological outcomes: lung degeneration, inflammation and oxidative stress-induced in a rat model.*








						The customizable e-cigarette resistance influences toxicological outcomes: lung degeneration, inflammation and oxidative stress-induced in a rat model - PubMed
					

Despite the knowledge gap regarding the risk-benefit ratio of the electronic cigarette (e-cig), its use has grown exponentially, even in teenagers. E-cig vapour contains carcinogenic compounds (e.g., formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and acrolein) and free radicals, especially reactive oxygen species...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



*Chronic E-Cigarette Use Increases Neutrophil Elastase and Matrix Metalloprotease Levels in the Lung.*








						Chronic E-Cigarette Use Increases Neutrophil Elastase and Matrix Metalloprotease Levels in the Lung - PubMed
					

<span><b>Rationale:</b> Proteolysis is a key aspect of the lung's innate immune system. Proteases, including neutrophil elastase and MMPs (matrix metalloproteases), modulate cell signaling, inflammation, tissue remodeling, and leukocyte recruitment via cleavage of their target proteins...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



*Flavoring Compounds Dominate Toxic Aldehyde Production during E-Cigarette Vaping.*








						Flavoring Compounds Dominate Toxic Aldehyde Production during E-Cigarette Vaping - PubMed
					

The growing popularity of electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) raises concerns about the possibility of adverse health effects to primary users and people exposed to e-cigarette vapors. E-Cigarettes offer a very wide variety of flavors, which is one of the main factors that attract new...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



*Exposure to electronic cigarette vapors affects pulmonary and systemic expression of circadian molecular clock genes*








						Exposure to electronic cigarette vapors affects pulmonary and systemic expression of circadian molecular clock genes
					

E‐cigarette use has exploded in the past years, especially among young adults and smokers desiring to quit. While concerns are mostly based on the presence of nicotine and flavors, pulmonary effects of propylene glycol and glycerol inhalation, ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Edit: Also, while adult users on this forum may be capable of making adult decisions about the frequency and quantity of vaping, teenagers are using vapes in increasing numbers without having a history of smoking, and there are effects of nicotine on the developing human brain as well as issues such as frequency of vaping due to teenagers' inherent low impulse control and the coupled desire for flavorings and the addictive properties of nicotine.


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## authorized (Aug 24, 2019)

Vario said:


> When I was a young adult, I smoked cigars and cigarettes occasionally at social gatherings and they didn't make me want to pursue an addiction, I know enough about the health risks of smoking, and the the taste and smell was disgusting, lastly I didn't want to waste money on it.  Smoking a cigar gives that feeling of overstimulation from the amount of nicotine in it.  However, tolerance rises with use and I would bet that habitual vapers are intaking more nicotine then they would otherwise with cigarettes because there is less of a limitation on its use: Its cheaper, less stigmatized, more hygenic, and can be used inside.  The addition of candy flavorings improving the taste, and the attraction of electronics gizmos also increases the appeal of use compared to cigarettes.


Obviously I can't speak for others and I am aware that there are heavy smokers out there that are capable of going through 3 packs per day, but in my experience with both cigarettes and vaping, there is a limit of continuous intake beyond which I start feeling like shit and I believe it's the same for most people.

What is the idea that vaping makes people intake more nicotine based on? If it's just a presumption, we can pretty much put that together with video games causing real life violence. Are there at least studies that confirm it? On average that is, because in the end it's a personal choice anyway.

I recently switched from 18mg to 12mg liquids, yet I don't vape more. It didn't require any effort, I just don't need more. And I don't experience increased craving, apparently I just didn't need as much as I thought. Makes me want to try even lower dosage still and see what happens.



Vario said:


> I've played online games (another addiction for some people) with gamers that vape constantly like every minute on the minute, sometimes even more frequently, evidenced with an open microphone on discord/teamspeak, there are people that consume this stuff non stop.


It is quite possible that they were vaping liquids without nicotine, or with a small amount of it.
If they want to vape more just for the sake of it, that's their problem.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> @Vayra86
> I don't think it's the same kind of lobbying at all. Big tobacco is a filthy rich conglomerate. What are the big, rich companies lobbying for e-cigs?
> Also worth to note that big tobacco, while engaging propaganda war against new competition, is at the same time investing into their own vaping products. It's pure business for them, nothing else, they're doing it to take over as much of this new market as they can.
> 
> ...



Regulation and the limits set for substances are most definitely useful because these are now the basis on which we see big tobacco implementing ways to reduce tar intake for example; and failing or straight up misleading us because their business model falls apart. And that in turn creates a legal basis to combat their influence.

Look up Benedicte Ficque, a Dutch lawyer taking the fight to big tobacco - and she will likely win, too.


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## authorized (Aug 24, 2019)

Vario said:


> Edit: Also, while adult users on this forum may be capable of making adult decisions about the frequency and quantity of vaping, teenagers are using vapes in increasing numbers without having a history of smoking, and there are effects of nicotine on the developing human brain as well as issues such as frequency of vaping due to teenagers' inherent low impulse control and the coupled desire for flavorings and the addictive properties of nicotine.


That's a different issue, I feel. Selling cigs or alcohol to minors is illegal and so it should be for nicotine liquids, I can't really see any difference.



Vayra86 said:


> Regulation and the limits set for substances are most definitely useful because these are now the basis on which we see big tobacco implementing ways to reduce tar intake for example; and failing or straight up misleading us because their business model falls apart. And that in turn creates a legal basis to combat their influence.
> 
> Look up Benedicte Ficque, a Dutch lawyer taking the fight to big tobacco - and she will likely win, too.


So... it is about regulating how poisonous they are.
I mean, it's great if they can slap those companies for deliberately putting unnecessary but harmful components into their cigarettes, but that doesn't change the fact that cigs are toxic by their very nature and that can't be changed.


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## Vario (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> What is the idea that vaping makes people intake more nicotine based on? If it's just a presumption, we can pretty much put that together with video games causing real life violence. Are there at least studies that confirm it? On average that is, because in the end it's a personal choice anyway.


*How Does Smoking and Nicotine Dependence Change after Onset of Vaping?*
CONCLUSIONS:
Dual use leads to a reduction in the number of combustible cigarettes, but total nicotine use and dependence increases.
How Does Smoking and Nicotine Dependence Change after Onset of Vaping? A Retrospective Analysis of Dual Users.








						How Does Smoking and Nicotine Dependence Change After Onset of Vaping? A Retrospective Analysis of Dual Users - PubMed
					

In dual users, a reduction in smoking following onset of vaping may offer some harm reduction via reduction in cigarette intake. However, the increase in total nicotine use and dependence could affect the ability to quit either or both products.




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				






*Are electronic nicotine delivery systems helping cigarette smokers quit? Evidence from a prospective cohort study of U.S. adult smokers, 2015-2016.*
The adjusted odds of quitting smoking were lower for those that used ENDS at baseline (9.4%, 95% CI = 5.22%-16.38%; AOR = 0.30, 95% CI = 0.13-0.72) compared to smokers who did not use at ENDS
(18.9%, 95% CI = 14.24%-24.68%). Smokers who used ENDS daily at some point during the study period were also less likely to quit smoking than nonusers (AOR = 0.17; 95% CI = 0.04-0.82).
We found no evidence that ENDS use, within context of the 2015-2016 US regulatory and tobacco/vaping market landscape, helped adult smokers quit at rates higher than smokers who did not use these products








						Are electronic nicotine delivery systems helping cigarette smokers quit? Evidence from a prospective cohort study of U.S. adult smokers, 2015-2016 - PubMed
					

We found no evidence that ENDS use, within context of the 2015-2016 US regulatory and tobacco/vaping market landscape, helped adult smokers quit at rates higher than smokers who did not use these products. Absent any meaningful changes, ENDS use among adult smokers is unlikely to be a sufficient...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## authorized (Aug 24, 2019)

@Vario
That's for dual users, that's not what we're talking about here.
I don't even know what's the point of doing both.


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## Vario (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> @Vario
> That's for dual users, that's not what we're talking about here.
> I don't even know what's the point of doing both.


Often, people justify harm reduction from going from cigarettes to vaping, justifying vaping as a safer means to satisfy a nicotine addiction.  However, that study shows they consume more nicotine as a result.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 24, 2019)

authorized said:


> That's a different issue, I feel. Selling cigs or alcohol to minors is illegal and so it should be for nicotine liquids, I can't really see any difference.
> 
> 
> So... it is about regulating how poisonous they are.
> I mean, it's great if they can slap those companies for deliberately putting unnecessary but harmful components into their cigarettes, but that doesn't change the fact that cigs are toxic by their very nature and that can't be changed.



The rabbit hole goes deeper.

Tobacco companies are doing stuff quite the same as what we saw with Dieselgate. They deploy a test process that is unlikely to resemble reality. They _know_ they are exceeding regulatory limits, and created a reality that looks like they play by the rules. In other words, they could be liable for health implications caused by smoking - and continuing the practice with knowledge of it is in fact some form of indirect manslaughter. Which is pretty huge. After all, the end result of all this rule breaking is that even if you wanted to, the amount of addictive substances in a cigarette is só high, they create physical and mental dependancies much more rapidly and readily than we used to think - yet they tell the world the opposite is true.

You have to consider this is a long term battle with long term effects; someone who started smoking 30-40 years ago, when the awareness of how harmful it is simply wasn't there all too much, has been provided information that the harmful substances _went down over the years_ as regulation kicked in. This appears not to be the case or, the test method is so screwed up its results cannot be trusted. New methods are now being deployed and they actually show us what really went down over the past decades.

There is a lot of stuff that is toxic in the world. And some of it we breathe every day. Dieselgate again; nOx... The moment it gets harmful though depends on the amount of that stuff you breathe, or we breathe, on average, on a daily basis. In the same way there is a difference between someone smoking all day every day and the occasional one. And in the same way, the concentration of harmful substances in a single cigarette gives you an idea, a baseline, to determine what is 'safe' within some (twisted?) reasonable margin, and what is só harmful you'd never even allow it in the first place. After all, if a cigarette actually appears to be as addictive as a shot of heroine, what would we do (its not; but still a whole lot more than we used to think), and what would we have done in the past decades?

That is why I say this is the exact same type of lobby; even with e-cigs it appears very likely that we are inhaling substances/combinations of substances in amounts that are way beyond healthy; while the e-cig is portrayed as a somewhat healthier/less damaging alternative.

Here, have a look









And yes, about the absurdity of regulation... look at weed and alcohol. We know for a fact alcohol is ten times more damaging, both on a personal and on a society level (alcohol related aggression, vandalism, domestic violence, etc.) yet alcohol is widely regarded as 'Okay'. In the same vein, the hard ban on harddrugs might be completely counterproductive, creating a scarce and highly volatile market with lots of violence and death involved, and the products coming out of it are hard to trust, versus legal alternatives that would have been regulated.

Regulation on substances like these will always be absurd, but there is some method to the madness - I guess, and as always, we humans are keen to create systems that give us the idea of control, freedom is a scary thing when it comes to these subjects, to many.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 2, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Vaping is a meme anyway.



Indiana has 3rd most vapers anywhere in country, and we have loads of stores here for it. It's amazing how dumb people can be here. 90% of the jobs in this state pay crap wages too, so I guess that goes hand in hand. Most of the vapers prob make $12 an hour here max, I sit outside with my grandparents in their garden sometimes, which is right next to a vape store sadly, and they don't have a privacy fence... they do a lot of business from people in crummy cars, lol God forbid people learn how to have a savings account these days.


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## Boatvan (Sep 2, 2019)

Just want to chime in with my opinion. Vaping has helped me quit smoking. It is not clear that it is safer, but I have control over the nicotine content in what I am putting into my body at least. I am willing to risk the effects of vaping over smoking at this time until it is proven it is just as dangerous. My two cents

EDIT: It certainly needs to be regulated better I will say. Without regulation, anyone can brew any juice with god knows what. Also accurate nicotine levels helps former smokers like me.


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## Chomiq (Sep 2, 2019)

Friend of mine used to smoke pack a day, once vapes became popular she switched to them. Now she no longer needed to go down 3 floors to the ground level to smoke since she could do it at her desk. So she get bit healthier due to ditching smokes but got less exercise. I'd be more worried about the content of aromatic compounds to help with the "taste" and "home brew" stuff. I'm actually surprised that the big boys from tobacco industry haven't stepped in yet to help pass regulations on e-cigs. It's easy money for them, kids in middle school walk around with vapes. Get them hooked on nicotine and you're set.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 2, 2019)

The company that owns Marlboro (Altria) owns a 35% stakes in Juul which, in turn, had 72% e-cigarette market share in the United States as of September 2018.  Big tobacco made forays into e-cigs years ago.

On topic: there's over 200 cases (most related illnesses have taken place in Wisconsin) now but it's too early to lay the blame anywhere.  Wait for CDC to isolate the toxin then trace that toxin back to its sources.


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## Vario (Sep 2, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The company that owns Marlboro (Altria) owns a 35% stakes in Juul which, in turn, had 72% e-cigarette market share in the United States as of September 2018.  Big tobacco made forays into e-cigs years ago.
> 
> On topic: there's over 200 cases (most related illnesses have taken place in Wisconsin) now but it's too early to lay the blame anywhere.  Wait for CDC to isolate the toxin then trace that toxin back to its sources.


Nearly all compounds in addition to nicotine are hazardous.  

Diacetyl (flavoring agent) - "popcorn lung" bronchiolitis obliterans
Propylene Glycol - formaldehyde
Vegetable Glycerin - formaldehyde, Lipoid Pneumonia
Cannabis Oil additives -  Lipoid Pneumonia
vanillin (vanilla flavoring agent) - aldehydes
cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon flavoring agent) - aldehydes
benzaldehyde (almond flavoring agent - aldehydes
2,3-pentanedione Acetylpropionyl (buttery flavor agent), used as substitute for diacetyl, similar hazard
acetoin (buttery flavor agent) - diacetyl









						Evaluation of e-liquid toxicity using an open-source high-throughput screening assay
					

Author summary The e-liquids used in electronic cigarettes (E-cigs) typically consist of a mixture of propylene glycol (PG), vegetable glycerin (VG), and nicotine, as well as numerous chemical additives that are used for flavoring. There are currently over 7,700 different flavored e-liquids that...




					journals.plos.org
				





> We are still understanding the relative toxicity of e-liquid constituents and their implications for airway exposure. PG is a common chemical used to produce polyester and as deicer/antifreeze, as well as being a base constituent in e-liquids. Intravenous PG can cause acute renal and central nervous system (CNS) toxicity [42], and PG inhalation causes renal and liver toxicity [43]. PG has previously been shown to inhibit renal glucose transport and corneal Na+/K+ATPase activity [44, 45]. Beyond PG, VG, and nicotine, we previously found no chemical similarity in 13 e-liquid flavors [30]. Therefore, given their heterogeneous nature, the overall goal of this project was to screen a greater number of neat e-liquids to identify flavors and/or chemical constituents that are more toxic and would direct additional studies. We found a number of highly toxic e-liquids that should be prioritized for study (Fig 1; S1 Table; S1 Data). Furthermore, in addition to identifying vanillin as potentially highly toxic, we also identified—using this screen—3 e-liquids that contain diacetyl (2,3-butanedione), which causes bronchiolitis obliterans, and 5 e-liquids that contain 2,3-butanedione monooxime, which is a chemical diphosphatase that blocks ATP-sensitive K+ channels [46–51]. Interestingly, many flavors, e.g., benzaldehyde (almond) and cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon), are aldehydes that can form protein adducts [52]. Benzaldehyde was only detected in 4 e-liquids. Cinnamaldehyde was found in 8 e-liquids (including Cinnamon Roll, Hot Cinnamon Candies, and Root Beer) and has previously been shown to impair phagocytosis in macrophages [34]. Sherwood and Boitano [24] recently exposed airway epithelia to 7 chemical flavors and concluded that vanillin and a chocolate flavor (2,5-dimethypyrazine) had the biggest effect on their cells. We found that vanillin was present in 63 out of 148 e-liquids. However, 2,5-dimethypyrazine was not detected in any of our e-liquids. Vanillin activates transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily V member (TRPV) channels. TRPV channels are expressed in neurons and serve as nonselective cation channels that can increase cytoplasmic Ca2+ levels in epithelia [53]. Of note, prolonged increases in cytosolic Ca2+ can alter cell division rates and are indicative of apoptosis [54].











						Flavoring Chemicals and Aldehydes in E-Cigarette Emissions - PubMed
					

Regulations on e-cigarettes in the U.S. do not provide guidelines on the chemical content of e-cigarette liquids. We evaluated emissions of aldehydes and flavoring chemicals in e-cigarette vapor under typical usage conditions. We selected 24 e-cigarette flavors from the top selling disposable...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				





> All e-cigarette emissions tested contained at least one aldehyde and/or flavoring chemical on either the FEMA "High Priority Chemicals" or FDA Harmful and Potentially Harmful Constituents lists when sampled at typical usage conditions. Diacetyl, a known respiratory hazard, along with acetoin, were the most prevalent of the flavoring chemicals in e-cigarette vapor, being found in more than 60% of samples. The presence of propionaldehyde, acetaldehyde and formaldehyde were correlated, corroborating previous work suggesting thermal degradation as a pathway for aldehyde generation in e-cigarette vapors. Median formaldehyde concentrations of 626 μg/m3 in e-cigarette vapor exceed the ACGIH maximum concentrations allowable for workers of 370 μg/m3.











						Acetoin is a precursor to diacetyl in e-cigarette liquids
					

Use of the e-liquid flavourings diacetyl and acetyl propionyl has raised concerns that they might cause respiratory diseases amongst vapers. Product s…




					www.sciencedirect.com


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## Hnykill22 (Sep 2, 2019)

tar and black lungs are gone with e-wapes. its just moisture the lungs can clean peretty eaisyly. sigarettes and e-wape are not the same.. but you get nicotine. thats all


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 2, 2019)

Vario's second link and quote there...
"All e-cigarette emissions tested contained at least one aldehyde and/or flavoring chemical on either the FEMA "High Priority Chemicals" or FDA Harmful and Potentially Harmful Constituents lists when sampled at typical usage conditions."
...no one should _want_ to consume that.

My suspicion is that CDC's results are going to cause the Surgeon General to apply a similar carcinogen warning to all e-cigarette products.


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## Boatvan (Sep 2, 2019)

@FordGT90Concept I would rather gamble on this than the already proven danger of cigarettes. I agree that it needs to be studied and regulated. But right now to me it is the lesser of two evils for me. I don't want to consume it, but I am working on an addiction. Nobody wants to be hooked on something.


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## Vario (Sep 2, 2019)

Boatvan said:


> @FordGT90Concept I would rather gamble on this than the already proven danger of cigarettes. I agree that it needs to be studied and regulated. But right now to me it is the lesser of two evils for me. I don't want to consume it, but I am working on an addiction. Nobody wants to be hooked on something.


Cold turkey is an effective method, it sucks to go through but it can be done.  You have to think of the suffering period as temporary.  It takes willpower but its the fastest way to get off things.








						The Best Way to Quit Smoking, According to Science
					

Quitting cold turkey was 25% more effective than gradually cutting down on cigarettes




					time.com


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## xtreemchaos (Sep 2, 2019)

I can never get the darn things to light don't mater how many boxes of matches I use


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## er557 (Sep 2, 2019)

I personally have never had the need for smoking, vaping, gaping or fapping....
just kiddin'


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## micropage7 (Sep 2, 2019)

I always say that vaping just like you boil the chemical and drag it to your lungs, at certain points it's worse than smoking


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## robot zombie (Sep 2, 2019)

I'm sitting here wondering where this is all coming from... I have been vaping for years and never had any major problems. Smoking, I knew was killing me every time I lit up. I could feel it. And then throughout my day there were big reminders of what I was doing to myself. When you can't breathe well enough to sleep on your back and some point in your day is going to involve hacking up crap like you have a chest cold, that's a major problem. People don't like to talk about this stuff because it's gross and embarrassing, but it's worth saying because when I switched my breathing got markedly better and that all went away. I had more energy, too. I'm really underselling it, here - the difference was night and day. I would say it was about a one month turn around from feeling like a smoker to feeling like a new person. The last time I had my lungs checked I was told they resemble those of a non-smoker. As someone who once smoked 2 packs a day, I find that pretty remarkable. Understand, this was a voluntary thing. I felt fine. At the time I was riding my bike 5-10 miles a day and honestly, feeling unstoppable when doing so, just putting all of my energy into it almost every day. And then feeling good when I got home, instead of like I wanted to puke. I went on my dime to see what the doctors would think, and whether or not they would see fit to mark me down as a non-smoker. Which they did!

I understand that it's not the healthiest thing to do - does anybody really think otherwise? I've never heard a single vaper actually try to make that claim outside of deep pockets of the net. Maybe initially some did, but at this point you really look dumb saying that, and even your fellow vapers will shut you down on that. We're past the point where everyone knows there are going to be risks. The implications are a different story and will take much longer to hash-out.

What is putting these people in the hospital in short order that I and pretty much every vaper I've encountered over the years have seemingly evaded for years? What the hell is in their vapes? I'm telling you... I've been doing this a long time. I know and have met plenty of long-time vapers. I have never encountered anyone who has been hospitalized with this terrible mystery lung illness, or even showing signs of a problem growing. Something is really fishy there.

I can think of a couple factors... I run rebuildables... as in I prepare my own coils. I clean them with an ultrasonic cleaner. I also mix my own juice, typically with minimal flavoring and nicotine. The way I set things up eliminates a lot of the unknowns in pre-rigged BTC vapes. Quite often, I vape no-nic, which I think is more common than people realize. There's a hobby side to the whole vaping thing. It starts with just wanting to get off smoking. Then you wean yourself off of the nicotine and discover that the whole draw for you was the ritual. And with vaping, there are all of these different interests revolving around the ritual. By this point, it's a completely different animal from smoking. Some of the reasons for doing it are the same, but just as many are unique to vaping. That's where long-time vapers reside, for the most part. But then, our habits and methods are distinctly different from kids buying Stigs and other pod systems and abusing or dismantling them. I suspect there are things going on that many vapers would not condone and probably have never done themselves, hence why it hasn't happened to them.

I'd like to know what particular vapes each of these people are using and how they are designed and set up, as well as how they were used in these instances. Like, hard, detailed info. Why not at least take those exact devices and really asses and analyze them? Maybe there are meaningful observations there. That side of it always gets glossed over. You never see that follow-up where they identify the exact cause of the exact incident. The narrative is always "These people vaped and were hurt. Nobody knows why this happened to this relatively small, insular group, but we _can_ say that vaping may be harmful in this and that way." Not what I would call balanced. Too many claims with major implications are followed up by "We're looking into it." You never hear what actually became of it or what actually caused it... only what _might've. _There are no actual connections being made... no way of repeating these anomalies. Doesn't mean there's nothing to em, but it does make it highly likely to be something other than what anyone thinks it is. Because if it was what we thought it was, we could then easily define and replicate the parameters and outcomes. I'm still waiting for that missing link.

And you can be sure that if it's there, I want to know everything I can about it, for my own sake more than anything. That's why I still read all of these articles, studies, and editorials, even if brings me to things I find objectionable from where I stand with my own choices. That is my dog in the fight. Not "Vaping is good and this is all bullshit!" but rather "Is vaping bad and if so in what ways are the risks applicable to me?" I want to better understand the implications of my choices and thus far most of the press I've seen has not been helpful.

Even a lot of the studies do it, messing with parameters without demonstrating relevance to real-world usage, leaving less informed and less invested onlookers to run wild with it. The very first FDA study found astonishing numbers of toxins and carcinogens in cig-style cartridges, but they also pumped more than double the voltage you'd ever get to one in order to produce that result. If you tried to vape it, you would choke violently on all of the burning material... yes, burning. Not vaporizing. The heat alone would make you reflexively pull back - we're approaching welding temperatures here. Who vapes like that? It'd be like putting your face up to a fire and taking a breath. And somehow people believed this was what vapers were doing. We must've been dropping like flies back then! I can't remember how many times people told me I was going to die back when that was everywhere. But that was what... 7 years ago now? At least... and still waiting on the verdict. There is good literature that poses some very important questions and concerns. But there is also some really, really egregious stuff that still misleads people to this day.

It's not a matter of if there is potential to cause harm. Undoubtedly there is. But whether or not and how that harm would manifest has not been seen, or this would not even be a conversation. If you heat anything enough, it burns and becomes toxic. But that was never the question. The question is whether that applies within the context of vaping habits, the devices used, and the typical usage scenarios. And then the question becomes, how do we stay outside of the range where it becomes significantly more toxic. Given what we DO know, it's reasonable to assume that it ought to be possible for people to vape without causing undue harm to themselves, though that's not the same as saying there will never be risks. It's not so black and white as toxic or not. Everything is toxic. We need context that still to this day hasn't fully manifested. That is what determines the difference between "direly hazardous" and "reasonably unharmful" but unfortunately, safety data is still in the abstract, generalized realm. The foundation for all of the mechanisms has just been built. It will be a few years more, at least, before that translates to more detailed and applicable answers to the questions we all have about the safety of vaping. I really do think anybody saying otherwise at this point is either ignorant, dishonest, or knows something that very few people know. Trying to argue for/against this stuff right now can only ever be a sideways conversation.

What I mean is, we understand some of the potential vectors for toxicity but we don't know how this pertains to each and every possible usage scenario, so it's possible some are wildly more harmful than others, while others might not be so bad at all. People thinking otherwise ought to stop looking at studies and articles and start educating themselves on all of the different types of vapes and juices out there, as they vary drastically. Really examine how exactly they work. That matters just as much as the general base toxicity. Think of the device and usage method as your multiplier. What you will then realize is how inadequate the current literature on this stuff is... just how much has not been accounted for when it comes to how people actually use these devices. The ones focusing on the irritant angle with control groups are interesting and relevant, but a lot of the other stuff isn't anywhere near there yet. And that aside, I'm not even convinced the irritant hypothesis is applicable in this case, as that mostly pertains to carcinogenic potential and immediate-short-term inhibition, not acute, permanent lung damage - the causes are unlikely to be related in my estimation as a decently-read layman. We'd be looking elsewhere and some things do come to mind, particularly studies on toxic compounds and metal oxides given off in large quantities when temperature is poorly managed and things begin to burn. What I'm suggesting is that we might simply be looking at bad batches of pre-made coils. There are some flaws that would make it easy to produce highly toxic compounds very quickly, though it's far from normal. I personally have encountered cartridges that had I continued to vape on, might have actually put me in the hospital. I can elaborate on this idea if anybody who's not aware is actually reading this ridiculous post 

Those of us who follow these issues closely wish not to put it all under the same blanket and inadvertently take out the good alongside the bad. Vaping is not all bad and in fact a lot of it is good. So it'd be nice to be able to isolate those things from eachother without all of the FUD, so that we as people can get the most good out of it for the best societal price, rather than demonizing it and pushing it to the fringes, where you can be sure everyone involved will be hurt in some way. You will never stop people from doing that. I'd rather see more people pick it apart on a deeper level, instead of making assumptions based only on existing knowledge, which there still aren't sufficient amounts of.

So to me it's simple. We handle it like everything else. Clearly and consicely identify the true risks, inform the populace, put reasonable countermeasures in place, and leave people to their choices. This is the only way forward... not banning it outright or giving it total free reign. Neither of those outcomes will do anyone any good in the end. Society will have to learn how to vape properly, just as we once had to learn to drink properly. Interestingly, you can see how that works now in the recently 'modernized' eskimo populations. They as a people never had alcohol before then - for countless generations it was not in their world, so all of the worst attributes of a society that drinks are in full bloom. But as time goes by they are learning how to put it in a proper place and it is reducing the harm little by little. A case of what is true for individuals also scaling up to people as a whole. We need time to sort out and integrate new vices as they arise. It takes generations for these things to fall into place. And if history has taught us anything, it's that once a society is exposed to a vice, there is no going back. You can't spit out the apple of chaos. All you can do is try to make sense of this new world of sin and folly.


Is that really a stretch to say that we might be jumping the gun on this whole vaping thing? Is it really that crazy in a world where drinking and smoking are legal? A world where addictive drugs are prescribed as medicine? What exactly is so special about vaping to demand all of this attention? Maybe I'm just not qualified to interpret these scientific papers and it's far better or worse than I realize. But then, neither are the majority of people who speak on them, least of all the journalists that write about them. And it seems like most of the people writing the papers are more interested in further research... as in, a more thorough conclusion than the ones we're presently debating. If the safety were really as established as some people (on BOTH sides) often like to argue we wouldn't still be talking about it and looking into it scientifically.

I mean, nobody argues that smoking will kill you. But that's because we actually do know that to be an indisputable fact. All of the nuance has been dragged out and pinned up already. The nuances of the risks associated with vaping are nowhere near that far along. Yet everyone thinks they know because of this or that. How long did it take the world to fully recognize the dangers of smoking tobacco? When you look at that, it seems implausible that we could know the dangers of vaping one way or the other in such a comparatively short time. I don't buy either side, frankly. For now I trust my intuition, but at least I can admit that about myself. I can say that I don't really know and start from there.

To me, without knowing the particulars of the usage, none of this seems all that meaningful. A bad thing has happened with a group of people vaping. Great. That could mean anything. Maybe it is inherent to all vaping on some level. Or it could be a freak thing. Knowing the hows and whats may tell us more than anything else could. Quite often it completely alters the implications. I don't want to see previous studies tied into this, as though somehow that implies an indisputable conclusion. That's not enough rigor for good science. All you really have there is a tidy and nice-sounding but un-vetted conclusion. We don't know the true connection there. It's a fallacious presupposition to assume they are related simply because logic supports it. For all we know the real reasons are entirely unrelated, in which we fail to identify the real danger. I want this specifically examined in a critical way. Really... I'm betting there's something funny there.

I'm not denying it's happening, but for a long time stuff like this didn't really happen and now suddenly it seems to be happening everywhere. You'd think if they had always been this bad it would have been open-and-shut years ago. Perhaps it is not vaping as a whole but specific products that this subset of people are using? Otherwise, given the acuteness of these events, the numbers would be orders of magnitude larger. So what changed? Anybody who truly cares for the safety of his neighbors ought to want to know that. Why stop at the conclusion that this happened and therefor vaping is dangerous. _Why_ is it dangerous? What exactly caused this? Obviously the vapes were involved somehow. That's not good enough to prevent this sort of thing, though. All it really does is scare people, which ain't the same as making them safer!


On a personal note, I really enjoy vaping. As mentioned before, it's a hobby for me... tinkering with different gear, trying different builds, different combinations of flavorings... I get a whole lot more out of it than I ever did from smoking, and my overall health seems to be much better. My doctor seems to agree. I have read so many studies on it and have yet to see the proof that it will be my cause of death. Plenty to suggest it is not at all harmless, but certainly enough for me to think it is far less harmful than smoking, which is all I personally care about. I just want one vice that's not killing me outright. Most people have at least one of those, whether they want to admit it or not. Sue me. I'm human and not everything I do for pleasure is in my best interest. I don't think that's ever completely avoidable, though! We all must pick our poisons. Desire flows like water downhill. Better to identify and integrate your desires in a less destructive manner than try to eliminate them and either implode or just be miserable and not even know why. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a staunch harm-reductionist... I believe there are things a person should never do, for everyone's sake. But I struggle to see vaping as one of them, nor drinking, nor smoking. Some people can't keep themselves in check with these things, but that doesn't mean nobody should do them. It just means that as adults we all have a responsibility to know who we are and act in accordance with our ideal balance of happiness, responsibility, and productivity.

That's just a part of life. You can't mandate it out. Nor can one will away the need to integrate these things. It's not enough to just stop. It's a constant battle we all face. And not everybody fights it from the same position. But regardless it's like plugging a geyser. The water just pops up through the next shortest route through the weakest ground. People are not capable of eliminating every weakness from within, so whether or not you're successful in merely stifling/ignoring a vice comes down to whether or not anything ever happens to you that draws out another weakness. Depends on how life goes for ya and what your susceptibilities are. That's why you can't force a person to quit. The change has to be within you. And call me cynical but it isn't always... and that's just real. For those of us who know themselves to be that way in spite of our best will and effort, vaping is a wonderful thing. Looking at myself and the things I have been through and gotten past in my life, it's hard for me to see it any other way. To me, it's one less specter looming over me, freeing up more of my energies for focusing on other equally important problems. Whether or not it will catch-up one day, nobody knows. But do you ever? I'm not convinced that anyone is in enough control to say for sure, for me or anyone else.

At the end of the day, I just want to vape in peace. Why that is so complicated for people to understand is beyond me. I've tried everything. I even went cold turkey for a few months. Not a day goes by that you don't yearn for that morning smoke. It's tantalizing. Didn't matter what I did or what was going on. It's always there, like a bad breakup. Later on I would have a breakup that was legitimately about as damaging as they come, and to cope I rationalized that it wasn't as bad as the time I went CT. Hard as that may be to grasp, it really tore me down. Things started to really fall apart with my attitude and my ability to stay motivated towards the right things. I saw myself entering a dark path. I've been through too much of that shit to think that would end well if I just worked at it. No way, man. Something was wrong, something much bigger than the person I was at the time. You can think what you will, but it takes a lot of humility and self-honesty to admit that to yourself. And not the wholesome, rewarding kind. In order to be able to see that, you have to pull away big parts of yourself, which for most people feels kind of like dying. Not your body, but your mind. You have to weigh your options and accept that where you pull back might not be where you want to, just as you may not be as good to yourself as you wish you were. It's not every day you fight Goliath. And as nice as that story is, he may very well crush you, as he does others like you all of the time.

Going up against addiction is a series of conquests and setbacks. You don't ever know how things are gonna be or where you'll wind up when you actively decided to go to war with yourself. You're attempting to alter pretty major stuff. And it's not always for the better. You could win today and fall back twice as hard as you ever did 3 years later because of something you missed when you thought you understood. A lot of things that sound perfectly rational kind of go out the window. And unless the people, especially those who have never smoked and are against vaping can explain how to deal with that in a practical way, I'm not buying the suggestions to change what I'm doing. It's not helpful to take away something that's helpful to me and offer me something that I already know is far less effective for me, or worse, some lofty suggestions of willpower and determination... just because you're looking at your concerns and thinking it's better that way. Addiction is not an A-to-B affair. You jump around the whole alphabet just hoping to get closer to the letter B. It takes a lot of will and effort just to manage that when you're really hooked. I usually try to be nice, but it's so insulting to hear that from people who've never been through it with something that is really, truly gripping onto your soul. The reason it is an addiction is because finding the will to stop is hard, and often involves terminating parts of yourself or your life that you like and make everything worthwhile for you. It's something that's as psychologically dangerous to remove as it is to acquire! You live in mourning of the loss of yourself. If you don't know about it, don't mess with it!

But I digress. I was healthier, but not happy. Not happy at all. What's the point of being healthy if you have to make yourself miserable to stay there? By sheer will I quit as people always say to do, but willing yourself to be happy and satisfied is about as effective as a starving Ethiopian daydreaming about eating steak. Life was pretty good to me at the time, hence why I gave it a try. It would be then, if ever... right? But filling that hole isn't always so easy. Cold turkey is easy advice. And it works for a lot of people, but the real challenge comes after. Nobody ever has applicable advice for that. It's not just a matter of will or inner strength, but temperament, too. Another person's temperament is the hardest thing for a person to emulate internally, but it has great precedence over how you perceive and react to what you're experiencing. Steering into that effectively isn't so easy - you can't always see it in yourself. Sometimes it is best not to mess with other people's ways of coping with things. If you find you're not getting it, chances are that their control panel is at least little different from the only one you've ever seen, which is your own. Some people make it with gum, others with the meds (godawful experience for me,) others cold turkey, others with the patch, while others still never succeed with any of it... and then they vape and never look back.

This is part of why vaping is important and why we need to actually get to the bottom of this and figure out what is actually best for everyone. The more methods you have for trying to quit something, the better the chance is that one will stick and you'll make it work for you. If it's not harmful, people need to know so they can try in earnest to help themselves. And if it is unacceptably harmful, might there be a way to mitigate it so that it's still better than smoking? Is it even worse than smoking to begin with? Does anybody know? With vaping in the mix, we wind up with another good chunk of non-smokers in the world. People can say whatever derogatory things they want, but that's what it is really about. I think sometimes everyone else forgets that for a lot of us it's not just a hip thing to do, but actually a tool that helped us improve our lives in a big way. To ignore or discount that is to ignore the well-being of those very people, as well as the reasons for their choices. All that is left for rational people to do is look at the drawbacks to a world with vaping in it and find as many ways to circumvent them as possible. Everything else... is a misdirection to me, if I'm putting it nicely.


I'm sorry that so many of you have encountered some douchebag vapers! I'll never understand that stigma, though. Most I've met are not what you'd call "chain vapers" and tend not to think enough of what they're doing to run around proselytizing and waving it around in people's faces as the best, most healthiest thing ever. You don't immediately know them to be vapers by looking at them. We have setups specifically for going out that are far less obvious and intrusive to others, because nobody wants to be that guy. I've seen the stereotype, but that's really all it is, as far as I can tell. Mostly the younger crowd... which is like, no news at all. Young people are annoying! You don't say?  But to me that's a few obnoxious types that get put under the microscope. Believe me, we all look and cringe at it with the rest of you. The rest of _us_ are about as discreet as someone sipping their coffee, not running around taking huge rips off of their 200w+ box mods all of the time. We're almost trying not to draw attention to it. Like anybody else, we mostly want to be let be out in the world. It's not a full-on lifestyle for most of us, yanno? It's simply a minor lifestyle choice, like choosing not to eat at such and such fast food joint. But do you then point to that person and say "Oh, they're one of those people who only eats at Taco Bell... douchbags. Look at him with his Baja Blast. The greasy, smug bastard. I bet he treats his mother badly. Why can't they just get their lives together and stop eating at Taco Bell?" It just... it goes right over my head, this whole "vaper" thing that exists in people's heads.

It seems completely arbitrary to me, like this and that are not implicitly related. As if somehow picking up a vape either turns you into a different person, or vaping is only appealing to people with the oddly specific subset of negative attributes that certain people against vaping love to bring up. It's almost like they enjoy speaking ill of all of these people, whom they do not know. It seems out of place. These 'vapers' are caricatures. What really happened? Did a vaper do something to you? The wide-reaching inferences that people toss out about other aspects of people who vape don't make sense otherwise. That's just not how people work, you know? Obviously I'm exaggerating here, but it's not really as far off from the attitudes you often see as I wish it was! Sometimes I really get the vibe that some people out to bring vaping down aren't really looking out for anyone's well being so much as they are on a vendetta against a demographic that they dislike for their own personal reasons. Like how so many people who hate and speak out against the rich actually don't like the poor either, but saying they act on the poor's behalf is a convenient way to legitimize what is actually a jealous crusade. It's merely a platform, a stepping stone to a position of power that they somehow think is going to magically give them what they want. It is amazing, the shit people will say about their fellow humans when they have become overly convinced that they fully understand the other side and are themselves on the right side of something. I mean, it's really something! And nobody is immune. I see otherwise reasonable people succumb to it. I've even caught myself doing it.

Still, it's patronizing when I see people talk about vaping as though they are concerned for other people's safety and then in same breath talk down to those same people! It's just shitty. According to some people I am less of a person just because I vape, and need help looking after myself and reaching my own conclusions. Good luck with that one, buddy. That's really only ever gonna be a point of conflict. But then, it's hard to imagine those types speaking that way for any other reason... just looking for something that's easy to stand against. What is anybody supposed to think of you doing that? I'd be very cautious of the people you score points with...


Point is... vapers are mostly normal people, of all ages (ADULT ages lol) and backgrounds... people who vape typically think of themselves as being vapers far less often than people pointing the finger tend to. But it sure does draw a lot of stigma and ire these days. Do people think vaping is a cult? These strange dogmatic narratives always seem to creep up when bad press makes it out. And then, suddenly not only is vaping the worst thing you could do for your health, but most vapers are bad, stupid people too. Odd, considering the rest of the time, nobody cares and these people are nowhere to be found. What ever happened to live and let live? Oh, right... that went out the window when we all took to tribalism and picked our camps. It definitely makes things simpler, but you've got to wonder what the net outcome of any pro/anti issue is really going to be. It inevitably devolves into self-interest and the erection of echo chambers. It goes from well-intended question/idea to vitriolic crusade like that. * snap* It becomes a power struggle. People then look after viewpoints more than they do each other. It gets hard to see where that difference is. And then at that point people on both sides start saying equally ridiculous things. And that is where we are now at with vaping, as we are with so much of societies vast minutia. Really now... have we ever really resolved one of these things by blowing it up and going at eachother? 

Worth saying, kids shouldn't be anywhere near this stuff. But good luck keeping it out of their hands. They buy everything from weed to dilaudid at school. Society has been fighting the problem of dumb kids doing dumb things from the very beginning. Don't seem to have made much headway, though I think we should continue to do everything we can to minimize the damage it causes. I think we could do more. I wish there was an easy answer there. I really do. I don't want to discount the implications for the affected... I just wonder what exactly caused it, and where some people get their ideas from. From where I stand, it seems like a bunch of reaching for answers that just aren't there yet, though of course we all want them to be right there when terrible things happen. And we want them to be what we want them to be so as to remain ourselves in light of it. Doesn't make the first piece of evidence in favor the only truth in it anymore than a lack of evidence demonstrates the truth you have derided for yourself. Goes both ways peeps. Regardless of what happened, it's going to be very particular and multifaceted.


I guess I had a lot to say here... this is a dialogue I've been following and participating in for many years - I needed this commentary on it lol. I know all of the tropes, beats, and narratives. I see the cycles. It's been the same crap over and over again with people looming over scraps of info like vultures, just taking it and using it to their own conflicting ends... fighting over it like it is one's job to completely obliterate the other. Given this, I think the whole thing is flawed in a big way. I think we're all being taken advantage of, by parties on both sides of the issue. Big time. I'm tired of it. We aren't any closer to figuring this shit out than we were almost a decade ago. In some ways, we're all further away. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever figure out where to place vaping in this world. There are too many factors involved. The pot has been so irreversibly stirred that one can no longer distinguish between who is doing good and who simply serves an ideological agenda.

No matter which side you're on, what's important to note is that if we are wrong, millions and millions of people will suffer. This isn't something to be taken for sport. It's not a friendly debate. It's not a grinding wheel. Which ideas we go with and how well we inform ourselves determines the outcome. How many millions of people die terrible deaths from smoking-related illness each year? What is the likelihood that vaping will not prevent many of those deaths? I vape and I support it, but even I don't know the answer to that one. I have my resentment towards certain factions (some of them vapers, even!) but the reality is that we don't know what we are playing with. I'm not just talking vaping here, but vice itself. Vaping is bringing us to questions many have never considered and so we struggle to sort it out.

There's a lot at stake and compromises that must be made. It's important that we get this right. Judging by how a lot of people broach the subject, I'm not convinced that they all share this attitude... not because they're opposed to vaping, but the why and the means by which they do so. A lot of it just is questionable, and I'm betting I would still think so if I didn't have passion tossed in. It's almost like some people want vaping to be bad. They want others to see how it leads to suffering, so that they can be right. They revel in these stories, as though it is somehow good, because it reinforces how they see things. When the reality is that people got really hurt and you are profiting off of that emotionally... maybe even monetarily. Same goes for people in favor who like to brush aside everything not in favor of vaping being safe, viciously attack those who oppose them, and set a bad example with how they integrate as vapers. They see it as an ideological war and will resort to any tactics they can, eschewing ethical integrity almost as often as the other side. None of that shit helps! An honest middle-ground is a better place for all of us. One where the fewest amount of people have to suffer and die from illness or bodily harm. That's what it's all about. And yet so many dance around that without ever seeing both sides of the problems at hand.

Everybody has their opinions on things... I've got my bullshit, too. But all too often when it comes to vaping, everyone just gets so far ahead of themselves and it's not helping anything. The basis of every argument is "reason to assume." You take this fact and say it's reasonable to assume that it's harmless based on that. Others take that fact and claim the opposite. And there's merit to both sides. It's a conversation worth having. I just wish people kept their finger on why that is a conversation worth having. It's a major public health issue that not only deals with all of these un-quantified physical/biological variables but questions of how individuals work and where we place addiction with regards to both individuals and entire groups of people.

There's a lot to talk about, but simultaneously nothing to really get down into, you know? That's all I see. A lot of people talking... far less repeatable, real-world information.

It's still a rabbit hole to the whole world. It's all gone too far, in so many ways. And both ways, too! I think it's all crazy... treating this stuff as harmless and proliferating it out like there's no risk as well as people just shutting it down and not even trying to see how we might figure out a way to make vaping a true force for good in a world of unhealthy lifestyles. We are just scratching the surface of what all this stuff is and what it means for all people. Much of what we know now will change drastically in the coming years. Right now all we have is some maybe very good, and maybe very bad things. We have to keep pressing forward before drawing conclusions and instituting them broadly. Some things are common-sense to implement, but the rest is just people talking afaic. And as long as everyone realizes that's all it is at this point, we'll get to where we ought to be with it.


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## Boatvan (Sep 2, 2019)

I agree that pandering toward children, adolescents and teens is WRONG. Tobacco and Vaping products have no place there. It is happening and it needs to be stopped



Vario said:


> Cold turkey is an effective method, it sucks to go through but it can be done. You have to think of the suffering period as temporary. It takes willpower but its the fastest way to get off things.


Not for everyone. I ended up smoking more than I ever did when I lacked the willpower and was off the wagon again. What is wrong with a product that is targeted toward me (a smoker with weak willpower)? I have tried all other alternatives (gum, patches) to no avail.


micropage7 said:


> I always say that vaping just like you boil the chemical and drag it to your lungs, at certain points it's worse than smoking


It could be, but I know for sure smoking kills people. In my personal life, it has taken loved ones. In my mind, any means necessary to stop are valid including vaping. I do not plan on vaping for the rest of my life at all. There is a goal to quit this too, just slowly.

All that being said, I don't think anyone should view it as cool and trendy. I think it is a tool for me to eventually get better and eventually quit both.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 2, 2019)

I don't know anyone who has said that vaping is safe but I know plenty that say it is much safer than smoking, our national health service quote it as 95% safer than smoking (however that is medically quantified) but we only have 5-10 years of research on vaping, what I do know is that Tar and Carbon monoxide cause the most deaths in the smoking community and there isn't any in a vape but as some have said, if it's not natural as nature intended then it likely is not 100% safe.

I smoked for 44 years and have been vaping for 3.5 years, I feel 100 times healthier than I did, I have no breathing issues and continue to run around 40 miles a week at 59.  If my Doctor said to me...…. you need to stop because one in every 10,000 vapers die, I would agree with him but say that in this case I am a happy man as in Europe one in every 175 long term smokers die from smoke related disease, unless of course I died from damage the smoking already caused despite moving over to vaping.

At the moment NHS England are debating whether to prescribe basic vape pens as part of their stop smoking programme because they at least seem pretty convinced that it will cost them a lot less than treatment for all the lung, heart and cancer treatments.  Whilst I am not in the business of telling anybody what to do, my best advice would be, if you don't or have never smoked, for god's sake don't vape and enjoy being 100% safe at least from these related illnesses.  If anyone does decide to vape, hopefully to get them off smoking, use certified, quality controlled  liquids/ingredients and don't mix some of that cr*p mentioned in that article.

For me...…….. the jury is still out


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## Boatvan (Sep 2, 2019)

@Tatty_One this is exactly what my experience is. Not a long term smoker here, but it is a tool in my eyes. Until they prove it is as dangerous, I will continue to use it to quit nicotine.


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## hat (Sep 2, 2019)

I agree @robot zombie I feel like it's kind of like when we were getting those "e-cigarette explodes in vaper's face" news stories all the time... and it usually turns out to be a mech mod or something that somebody did something stupid to. I've been vaping for years and never heard of this mystery illness until now... and my fiancee has as well. She quit smoking and switched to vaping back in 2015 when she was put on a ventilator with legionnaire's pnemonia. She still has very weak lungs and couldn't smoke a cigarette today if she wanted to but she can handle vaping fine. Her lungs are still improving, even. Of course, I'm not saying it's totally safe, that there's no risk... but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's infinitely less dangerous than smoking... unless you do something really dumb, like mess with mech mods you have no knowledge about.

This also brings to mind a few years back something came out about there being formaldehyde in e-cigs... but when somebody looked into it, the formaldehyde was being produced only when the mod was pushing way more power through the coil than what it was meant for, heating it in excess of 600*F. No vaper would ever hit a vape like that. We're talking about the mother of all burnt hits here. It would be extremely unpleasant, to say the least. Nobody vapes like that.

Stories like this are merely propaganda pushed by those who are extremely anti-vaping, for whatever reason, with certain details conveniently left out in order to best suit their narrative.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

New York to ban flavored e-cigarettes after illnesses, deaths
					

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo on Sunday announced a ban on all flavored e-cigarettes besides tobacco and menthol in response to a recent nationwide spate of sometimes deadly lung illnesses that U.S. health officials have linked to vaping.




					www.reuters.com


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## robot zombie (Sep 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> New York to ban flavored e-cigarettes after illnesses, deaths
> 
> 
> New York Governor Andrew Cuomo on Sunday announced a ban on all flavored e-cigarettes besides tobacco and menthol in response to a recent nationwide spate of sometimes deadly lung illnesses that U.S. health officials have linked to vaping.
> ...


The level of ignorance to it all astounds me. Considering the vast majority, if not all of these cases were with shady cannabinoid vapes, which are pretty functionally different, it just sounds like virtue signalling to me. It should be a no brainer that you should only get your cannabinoid vapes from trustworthy sources. And if those are the issue, then address those! Why mess with nicotine vapes? At best it's ignorance. But I'm sure there's some dishonesty in there, too.

Everyone's caught up in the 'think of the children' line. Which yes, kids picking up vapes is a problem trend, but as someone who started smoking as a kid, like many smokers, I continued to smoke after the first cigarette, even though it wasn't even a good experience. I'm not seeing the real-life connection. Most kids who would have smoked instead of vaping still did it in spite of the lack of fruit flavored cigarettes. And then there's the flavored cigars thing, which almost no kids smoke as it is. But hey, since we're in the spirit of taking people's personal liberties away out of misplaced fear, why not? If it's flavored, it's gotta go, whether or not it is related.

It just... not only is this not an effective strategy, but it's actually hurting people who rely on the flavors to keep vaping more appealing than tobacco for them in their personal fight. Tobacco flavors just aren't enjoyable to the vast majority. We avoid them like the plague. Many people will sooner smoke than vape that stuff. And when you're a smoker of say, 15+ years, yeah... that is often what happens. The chance of relapse is much higher at that point. A seemingly small thing such as flavors will be the tipping point for that crowd. Those people are vulnerable on a level that most people are not equipped to understand. That's just the truth of it. They don't know.  How could they? By thier own admission they would never do it, or put themselves in that position. But that should scream of the differences in psychological makeup. To dismiss it is just sad, man. It's really cruel.

There's also people just making the switch. Flavors can be a major appeal to adults looking to transition, as it is completely different and often more enjoyable. After a few months of vaping, I tried to smoke and couldn't do it because of how terrible they tasted compared to the fruity juices I was used to. It's also psychologically helpful to have fewer reminders of tobacco when trying to quit tobacco. The reason vaping works on a psychological level is because it's just close enough to smoking to satisfy, but not close enough to directly compare. That's what makes it one of the most effective smoking cessation aids we've come up with to date! I feel like this should be common sense. It should be obvious to anyone who's familiar with the ins and outs of tobacco addiction why adults might want what the flavors provide to help them along as they make that often very difficult and precarious switch, not just physically, but on a deep psychological level. I mean, many vapers who have successfully moved away from tobacco completely swear by their sweet flavors for a reason. Again, it's something that makes vaping more appealing in a time when your impulses are going crazy and you're looking for something, anything to ease that and get on with your day... something to take you _away_ from those desires, instead of towards them. This is also why most people who try to switch with tobacco flavored 'cigalike' vapes tend to fail much more often than people running custom devices with flavored juice. The experience is just better, and so unlike smoking you forget why you wanted to smoke in the first place.

So no, I wouldn't say they're targeted towards young people. It's more like they just happen to appeal to them, as so many other things they ought to stay away from do. But then, so do cigarettes. What's with that? I smoked and used nasty, nasty dip as a teenager. And so did quite a lot of kids in school. And again, those products taste like ass to the vast majority of non-smokers. But we still stuck it out.

To me, it's incredible how well a good vape with the right flavor has worked for so many people. It's the most progress we've made towards battling tobacco addiction in a long time. But people seem to conveniently forget just how many people die from smoking related illness each year. How that happens, I don't quite get. You don't see the same outcry about cigarettes, even though the damage that we have documented far dwarfs everything potentially bad we've found with vaping since its conception. How did we get here?

This is in fact how fruit flavors rose to prominence, back when vaping was a boutique, grassroots movement. I was there. I remember when they started getting rediculously popular, and the things adult vapers had to say about it. They were emphatically grateful for finding a flavor that finally pushed them far enough to jump. Many of them had tried before with the tobacco flavors and failed in short order. Many vapers who have successfully gotten off of tobacco will insist that one of the first things you must do is find a couple of flavors that you love. And for most people that is either fruit, candy, or dessert. I don't care who you are or how old you are. When you find one you like it is so delicious you never want to stop... and it's surprising just how quickly you start to forget what smoking was even like when that happens. People can think it's all just people being fussy and tossing the kids aside, but it's not that simple at all. The flavors are important, very important. This stuff matters to a lot of people. And the fact that people on the other side won't ever, at the very least, acknowledge this, shows me the level of ignorance behind it. It's like in these people's minds, vaping can and has done nobody any good. How you can operate that way with us knowing what we DO know, and WHY it's become something popular, something that pretty huge numbers of ex-smokers have become very passionate about? Sure, there is a lot that isn't known, but it's like... cmon man! Really? How do you not see the impact it has had on so many people's lives?

We vapers have an adage... "I knew for a fact that smoking would kill me." And the fact that so many people are willing to take a risk in order to get away from that should tell you how dire of a problem tobacco addiction truly is in our society. How are we really sitting here looking a gift horse in the mouth when on the other side of vaping is something that kills half a million Americans every year! That's one in 5 deaths annually! Somebody please explain to me, given what we do know (and not what we DON'T because there are a lot of things we don't know about things we consume all of the time,) how we as a society can afford to let this opportunity go before we even know how it will shake down? If this is the new paradigm, how are we ever to progress? The logical conclusion of that mindset is to just stop going outside. Those people can do that if they wish. But the rest of us would like to be exempt from that, if possible.


I really just don't understand the rationale behind this at all. Not only will this do nothing to stop the people pushing out bad cannabinoid products that have seriously hurt people (as they're likely already doing some side-stepping,) but it's likely going to mean more smokers out in the world. And furthermore, there is not much of a case for how this is going to get vapes out of kids hands. But I have a suspicion... that kids just like mind altering substances. They like the buzz. They probably don't care how it tastes. That's just a small plus, when it happens. I shudder at the vile things I and many kids I knew consumed in the name of a buzz. Shit man, I drank 151 straight, in back to back shots as a teenager. 3/4 of that is straight alcohol. I didn't drink that for the taste! Hell, in our minds if it was nasty, that simply meant it must be good!

I just... how is this good in anybody's minds? Personally I think these people are using the incremental strategy. Appeal to the emotions of people who simply aren't aware of the human beings on the other side of this issue to get incremental, 'common sense' restrictions placed, until all that's left is the big one. Why does it feel like vapers and non vapers live in different universes? I can think of only one reason, and it's ugly. If you can find some way to talk to their gut, they'll go along every time. They'll distance themselves from the people affected and make caricatures out of them until they basically aren't real people to them anymore. Because that's all they have to go by. They don't have the means to see the dishonesty in the arguments. They don't know vapers, they assume shallow, nefarious goals of everyone involved, and so they don't hear anybody else talking and pleading them to consider that this might actually be helping a lot of people and may one day help someone they know and care about.

Remember, just as we don't quite know the risks, we also don't know the benefits to be at all untrue either. And that is very important. If we make the wrong move one way or the other, the damage done by our misstep will be equally huge. Now is not the time to get worked up in a moral panic. We can't afford to flop around on this one and make anything other than concrete, well-founded decisions. Anything beyond that stands to do immeasurable harm in the big, complicated picture that is public health. This shit is not easy to figure out! But maybe we actually try to figure it out instead of saying "We don't know." and sealing our fate for better or worse. I think it's far better to take things as they come. The media will say otherwise, but this is an isolated issue with a very specific cause. It is isolated in that the majority of users never experience this. Different groups and places, but same cause. We know what that cause is, and we could probably come up with a way to mitigate that specific issue without throwing everything else in the trash. So the only rational thing to do is address the particular risk we now know of and move on. One step at a time, we all become safer, and hopefully with the fairest compromises. An more importantly, with the least harm done! I promise you it is better than making these big leaps in judgment. That is actually hurting people. Like really, seriously hurting people. Though I suppose it's easier to ignore when it's people you don't know. So long as you are convinced that your kids are safe, it doesn't matter if a few thousand extra people start dropping from smoking-related illness every year because the one thing keeping the off of it was taken from them.

The issue of children vaping is systemic, to be sure, but that is something that goes far beyond vaping. That's a problem entrenched within the core of all humanity. And if we banned everything that children got into, there would be nothing left. We could go a lot further to educate them on the real risks, rather than instill fear and leave them be, though. We could try to be closer to our children in a genuine way... make them want to be honest... to want to look to you, as their parent, as someone they can really confide in. And then, we could accept that part of becoming an adult is making your own decisions - and that means making mistakes and learning to live with them. They're going to fight tooth and nail for their independence and they will find it... and there will always be BIG risks to that. And that means that you have to be ready to catch them when they fall, so they can learn how to fall better. You have to know they aren't perfect, know they'll mess up big time. And if you've done well, chances are everything will be fine. They will grow and your relationship will grow. And if not, chances are there will never, in our entire time in existence, be a reasonable way to prevent that. I don't feel good about saying that but the world is a harsh place full of harsh lessons. I have mourned the losses of people close to me for reasons beyond my control and wished there was an answer. I've made mistakes for which I still wish there was something to blame them on. But there isn't. You can't let that cloud your thinking on what life should be for yourself, let alone other people. Luck will always be a factor. Sometimes I think we're all just lucky to be where we are. We'll sooner figure out how to make all romantic relationships permanently successful before figuring out how to keep kids out of serious trouble. You do the best you can, but you don't go blaming this or that and dragging other people into it. That's no okay for us to do as adults. If only it was that easy, you know? We'd have it all figured out by now.

I don't want to mince words here. The crux of what's wrong with the 'think of the children' argument in this case is simple - there are some things in this world and this life that the government can't fix. Things that it keeps trying and trying again and again to mitigate that simply change positions in step, all the while losing time, faith, and precious resources/life forces. Human nature *may* just be a little bit larger than the confines of the law will ever be. It may be that there are certain problems in life where the best option is to address them as individuals, and mutually agree to actively try doing that and hold eachother to that and simply be there for eachother by integrating it into a coagulated culture, like we did when we hopped across the Atlantic. Seems more probable than trying to control each other like we do now with things like this.

Seems hard for people to imagine these days, which is strange considering libertarianism was a founding principle of this country. Everybody is all "Power to the people!" only up to the point where they encounter something that they A. find offensive or B. don't want to deal with. People like the idea of coming together and will briefly, but ultimately are terrified of what that really means... which is that they have to learn to trust themselves and their neighbors... trust that we are all just people who wish not to suffer, witness, or cause the suffering of others. No, we simply must be adversaries. It is then that they immediately become all for leaving their freedom and safety for Uncle Sam to worry about. I think we as people need to decide at some point whether we want to be more safe or more free. Personally I think being too scared to live and take on the responsibility and consequence of being individuals will be the death of us all - that was the best thing we ever did for ourselves way back in the day, and it's taken us so far that we take it for granted horribly now - all of these little culture wars and seasonal crusades we thrive on now only prove that point, but I digress. I just really don't want to live a life dictated entirely by power struggles and I don't like seeing that in my country. I have no hate for those people... only deep sadness and disappointment. It's no longer us vs them, but us vs us.

Seeing things like this happen is just depressing. This is something that has for a long time and could change still many more lives, but instead it's being leveraged as nothing more than a hip, dangerous new trend and we ourselves are allowing people who deserve that chance at a better, longer life to be swept under the rug for the sake of petty, half-baked, emotionally charged arguments and edge-case scenarios. I look at all of the people I have personally met in my life, who seem much happier and healthier, who speak of all of the things they can now do that they couldn't before, thanks to the very things that people in power now wish to see snuffed out, all the while shaping the dialogue to make it seem like there's zero good to be found... as though those people I have met do not exist. And people go along with it. We're all too happy to see each other take a fall just to feel like we're on the right side of things. Nobody smells the deception. They're almost happy to be taken advantage of, if only to feel like they're a part of something.


The way these people talk looks to me, as someone on the other side, like people talking about things they didn't know the first thing about until yesterday. I'm not talking the heavy stuff in the debates... just the basic facts we all know and agree upon. They often don't even know those. A good chunk of them don't understand how a vape works on a fundamental level, clearly can't see the glaring difference between different types of vapes, let alone the major differences between nicotine and cannabinoid vapes (as well as the ingredients - they think they're the same thing only one gets you stoned, which is dead wrong... they are FUNDAMENTALLY different in nature.) They're probably not even aware of what the flavorings are that caused this little outbreak. They only know of it because it is the new buzzword used to paint vaping as this terrible scourge. But then, if they were aware of that, they'd also know that the substances in question aren't typically, if ever used in nicotine vapes. This makes it impossible to even have a real conversation and do some honest risk assessment. Instead people jump at everything and move in favor of big sweeping motions that toss out the baby with the bathwater. How does anyone who claims to be interested in public safety not know the most basic things... not be willing or able to make the most basic distinctions? You'd think they'd want to know everything they could.

I mean, which is it? "We don't know and we should ban it." or "We know enough to ban it." You can't have both. Either try harder to prove this stuff or stop with the FUD. That's what I think. "Well, this happened, but we still don't know if vaping is dangerous... but we think it might be!" is getting old. I've seen causes for concern, but that smoking gun is nowhere to be found. If you want my opinion, no, vaping is not a 'healthy' practice - there is no way to make the case that it is good for you in itself. It is simply less likely to be nearly as harmful as what people are using it to get away from, which is a huge deal when we're talking about a problem that our society cannot keep less than half a million from dying from every year. Unless the same people have come up with a better way, we can only take the best chances we have... even if it is literally taking a chance. Because... and I dunno this might sound nutty, the whole "don't use tobacco solution" that everyone seems to think is best hasn't panned out so well for the millions of people who have died to it over the past few decades. Because they tried and couldn't. And again, we know how addictive tobacco is, but you don't truly understand just how powerful it is if you haven't been there. But a lot of us, we understand perfectly well, and do want to avoid that fate with everything we have in us. To say 'just don't' is almost an insult when you're past that point. Is that really all you've got? Do we think that a viable solution for alcoholics or heroin addicts? What percentage of people actually succeed going cold-turkey from tobacco? Wasn't it something like 22% that lasted 6 months? How many of those people stay off it for good? Because that already sounds like not enough. That would still be a 3rd of a million people every year, assuming all of that 22% succeeded. Actually.. it would be more still dying because that is 22% of roughly 60% in a group of smokers. Meanwhile the rate of people picking up smoking every year is higher. Again, to overcome that we need as many methods as possible, as everyone is different. Of all the methods we have, cold-turkey is the most effective for those who try it, but none of the methods available, including CT are enough to even come close to getting that number of deaths down to a more manageable level and maybe in turn de-normalizing picking up tobacco to begin with.

At the very least it is an intellectually lazy argument to make. I can't take it seriously. It basically amounts to saying that you don't really know what you're talking about, that nobody does, but your mind is made up anyway. I think a lot of things. I think there are things nobody should do, but they do them. And some things that I do, people say I shouldn't or they wouldn't (which by the way... totally fair to say. I respect your reasons, just like I hope that you respect my choice to do what I think is the best compromise for me - because that's what living is.) But I don't make policy decisions based on that, and neither should they. Fine line between looking out for public safety and attempting to delegate personal choices to law. We should know this well by now.

I mean, here we are, mounting to ban flavors of ALL vapes, because of something that never should've been used in any vape and never was used in any nicotine vape. But also because kids are vaping and we somehow believe that they only want the flavors. Our kids would never want to cop a buzz! Damn this blasted vaping, getting our kids hooked on nicotine with their watermelon and cotton candy! If not for that, they'd never use any drugs, ever! Our kids only like candy and sweets like good little boys and girls.

It just really blows my mind. The psychology behind it all is astounding.

The ultimate endgame here is that the only vapes left on the market will be owned and controlled by big tobacco... the only ones who can afford to get their products passed through the narrow, expensive, time-consuming channels. Us and our kids can all just enjoy our shitty, overpriced tobacco vapes. Or maybe we just smoke. And you can bet the FDA will do everything to delay and fail whatever vaping products they please. Previously they wanted $300000 _per product._ As in you pay them to review it, wait however long they feel like keeping you waiting and hope they approve while you sit around, unable to make money. Or more likely you go through this a couple of times only to be left with no money and nothing to sell and just pack it in.

So the people who started the movement are wiped out quickly, but BT-owned vape companies like NJOY, Blu, and Juul get to thrive with no competition and the FDA makes boatloads of money. People like to compare the rise of vaping to that of big tobacco. And yes it is eeeerrily similar but sometimes I think people must not know the history there so well. As in... the last time things went the way they're going with vaping now, we wound up at the mercy of these big companies, who cared not a bit for your children or your well-being so long as they made their money. They only stopped going for the kids because it was making the people keeping them in business look like they weren't doing their jobs. It's like this insane loop of mutual extortion. And branches of your government who were supposed to be looking out for your well-being allowed your families' and friends' ancestors to drop like flies from these products while they pocketed the cash. They took part in that mass-exploitation. And that's still going on. It may very well happen again, and cruelly enough the people who think they're on the other side of that history by pushing for these bans and regulation will be the very reason that history repeats itself. Can't put a tinfoil hat on me for that. We all know exactly what happened with tobacco in America, and how it came to be such a rampant problem. Why people think the government will do it differently now when it worked so well the last time is beyond me.

This isn't a very forward-thinking way to handle things. The only people left to compete will be the ones willing to do so illegally and people we've known for a long time only care about public health when it's shoved in their faces. And then alongside of that you will have people attempting to mix their own flavors up and using the wrong stuff. You've got another thing coming if you think your kids won't touch that. If it's there, it's forbidden, and it feels good, many inevitably will, no matter the hoops. And then they'll use that as a reason to tighten down more, even though they created the backdrop themselves.

And again, if people were truly invested in the issue and not just riding trends, they would know this stuff just from talking to people around them. You can't not see the contrast in the narrative when you're right there with the other side.

It's really crazy to me, how not only willing, but enthusiastic people can get about giving up liberties that don't directly affect them. Any other time they would call out lies and oppression, but with something that isn't in their immediate world it's like "Oh... I guess that's pretty bad from what they're saying. I don't want bad things! Get rid of it!" They don't even know what it is or why it exists. They just know they don't want it in their world, or even adjacent to it. Frankly, I find it pitiful. Why are people these days so bent on telling people how to live as to stoop to such ridiculous levels as to completely obfuscate any view other than their own? I thought we weren't into authoritarianism in America? Honestly I find the guise of doing this to protect people quite alarming, and part of a bigger issue we continue to see play out again and again. And then I look to the UK, who has the total opposite stance on vaping. I look at myself and my own life and can't help but wonder what I'm really being protected from that they seem not to be concerned with. What's the real reason for the difference in motivation?


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## killster1 (Sep 16, 2019)

dont whant to set it"' said:


> First death linked to vaping reported in Illinois
> 
> 
> The Illinois case comes as US health officials track 193 cases of a lung illness reported by vapers.
> ...



its because you can do it in public and not have everyone smell the skunk from 2 miles away. 

Vaping oil and vaping actual herbs are way diff since there are no added turps to ole fashion herbs. Just stop smoking all together is my tip of the day


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## Tatty_One (Sep 16, 2019)

I think San Francisco was the first major City to ban Vaping in public, it's beyond me therefore why smoking is not banned everywhere in public, I would still be interested to know if the vaping was "as a direct result" and if these people vaping were actually smoking significantly before they vaped.


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## 64K (Sep 16, 2019)

I know a few people that were able to quit smoking by switching to vaping. I also know 2 people that never smoked cigarettes but started vaping because they thought it was fairly safe.

I smoked cigarettes from 14 years old until 45 years old and quit a few times but picked it back up again later. So far I have quit for 12 years now and have no intention of vaping. I tend towards abusing substances like alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. I leave all 3 alone now except a little caffeine in sodas.


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## ratirt (Sep 16, 2019)

I tried vaping once since I'm a smoker. Normally I stick to regular smokes. I quit then get back on and so one. Vaping tried once and puked my house after trying. The liquids in there aren't good and you can get emphysema from it. Besides I dont think you will smoke less with vaping. You crank the dozes of nicotine to horrible levels. (my friends do that) All these are bad and people abuse those so legalization is not an option. What I read earlier somebody said that weed is better than alcohol due to the mellow behavior of the individual smoking it. Yes if you abuse alcohol the "psycho" behavior is released. That happens only when you abuse it. It won't happen after few beers. Marihuana is more addictive than alcohol and the problem is, after a while you can't even feel the difference when you smoke it. Which may lead to harder drugs abuse to feel the kick. Legalizing weed, because it is softer than alcohol, is not an option because it isn't softer. You may consider this as a foreplay before the party starts for real.  Besides, think about what would have happened when suddenly you prohibit alcohol which has been in every culture I know for centuries. It's not happening, it will stay because it's been here for so long.

I see two options here.
Narrow down the consumption of drugs and alcohol by law. The "weak" will scream out "no freedom". Everyone should have freedom and do whatever pleases with his/her own life and be responsible for his/her own doing. So.... demonstrations and general frustration and media shouting "no democracy", "no freedom" etc. firing up the population to act.
Legalize everything will lead to one outcome. Only the strong will survive with a will to resist and the weak will perish. The weak will demand help from the country. Which will lead to country falling apart.
In other words, this is a problem.
Maybe there's 3rd option in a way of educating about the abuse of substances and the consequences. But, aren't we all aware what these substances can do to you and your life? And yet here we all are.


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## Vario (Sep 16, 2019)

The FDA is likely to ban flavored as well. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/tru...tte-policy-amid-outbreak-of-lung-disease.html .

If you really want to quit nicotine, then just quit nicotine.  Stop using it.  Have some willpower to stop putting the chemical in your body.  Resolve to stop buying it.


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## Boatvan (Sep 16, 2019)

Vario said:


> The FDA is likely to ban flavored as well. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/tru...tte-policy-amid-outbreak-of-lung-disease.html .
> 
> If you really want to quit nicotine, then just quit nicotine.  Stop using it.  Have some willpower to stop putting the chemical in your body.  Resolve to stop buying it.


Thanks, I'm cured of my addiction! That is quite idealistic thinking my friend. There are so many variables in addiction, do you really believe it is that simple?


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## Vario (Sep 16, 2019)

Boatvan said:


> Thanks, I'm cured of my addiction! That is quite idealistic thinking my friend. There are so many variables in addiction, do you really believe it is that simple?


Yes I do.  Stop buying the products.  Find something else to do for a few months while your body adjusts.  Its not going to kill you.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 16, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> I watched a video on smoking and vaping, vaping is for those who want to quit smoking, it is a little safer, however those who never smoked to begin with shouldn't smoke or vape anyway. Our lungs weren't created to hold smoke, water, vapors, only gaseous form of oxygen & nitrogen


I used a vape to quit smoking.
It was still a process but it worked for me.
Haven't had a cigarette in 2.5 years and no nicotine of any kind in the last 1.5 years.

I used Vuse as an ecig but they got to be expensive so I switched to an actual Vape and that made me feel like I was gonna die... So I quit vaping...
I do admit that giving up nicotine made me a little insane (literally) for about 3 months.


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## 64K (Sep 16, 2019)

Vario said:


> If you really want to quit nicotine, then just quit nicotine.  Stop using it.  Have some willpower to stop putting the chemical in your body.  Resolve to stop buying it.



That's really the truth of it. I quit with no patches or nicotine gum. I used to know a guy that quit smoking by using the gum but years later he was still chewing the Nicorette. He figured that was better than smoking. He's probably vaping now.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 16, 2019)

64K said:


> That's really the truth of it. I quit with no patches or nicotine gum. I used to know a guy that quit smoking by using the gum but years later he was still chewing the Nicorette. He figured that was better than smoking. He's probably vaping now.


When it comes down to it, yeah.
Just quit... It really isn't more complicated than that.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> I think San Francisco was the first major City to ban Vaping in public, it's beyond me therefore why smoking is not banned everywhere in public, I would still be interested to know if the vaping was "as a direct result" and if these people vaping were actually smoking significantly before they vaped.


The ones dying and losing lung function are all in their 20s or less as far as I know.  Most never smoked a cigarette.

One case the news covered I think was a 23 year old with the lung capacity of a 7 year old.  Bed ridden and has to have an oxygen mask to stay alive.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The ones dying and losing lung function are all in their 20s or less as far as I know.  Most never smoked a cigarette.
> 
> One case the news covered I think was a 23 year old with the lung capacity of a 7 year old.  Bed ridden and has to have an oxygen mask to stay alive.


Well, if these are the first to be found dying from the habit that are evidenced direct to vaping then it just supports what I said earlier, it's not safe, however for those that feel it's their only alternative to tobacco it's still likely to be hundred's of times safer than smoking and that's the whole point to a vaper, yes of course it is better to just stop nicotine all together but not everyone can achieve that.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

They all vaped.  CDC said they aren't draw conclusions yet besides that specifically responding to the notion that cannabis oil vaping was to blame.  In other words, they likely have evidence that some cases didn't involve cannabis.

The mystery is why so few people are afflicted with the condition out of those that do vape.


Addiction risk is potentially much worse with vaping because the amount of nicotine can vary hugely.  Cigarettes only have 6-12 mg/mL. Vapes can go as high as 36 mg/mL.

Safety? That's under investigation.  Yes, vapes don't have all the tar, formaldehyde, arsenic, etc. that other tobacco products have but it still has the reason anyone smokes in the first place: nicotine.


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## kapone32 (Sep 16, 2019)

There are a lot of people that are saying that smoking is bad for you. I want to agree but is it worse than vaping? We have had cigarettes longer than we have had computers. There used to be nowhere where you couldn't smoke (I wonder if every stewardess that worked on Airlines from the 50s to the 90s died of lung cancer). 
Vaping is a whole new way of smoking. We have no idea what the health dangers are nor how they will manifest themselves in the average person. New is not always better but on an anecdotal note I had a friend that I could not get into contact with for over a month. he was in the hospital for 3 weeks with lung related problems. He does not smoke cigarettes but he was vaping regularly.


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## 64K (Sep 16, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> There are a lot of people that are saying that smoking is bad for you. I want to agree but is it worse than vaping? We have had cigarettes longer than we have had computers. There used to be nowhere where you couldn't smoke (I wonder if every stewardess that worked on Airlines from the 50s to the 90s died of lung cancer).
> Vaping is a whole new way of smoking. We have no idea what the health dangers are nor how they will manifest themselves in the average person. New is not always better but on an anecdotal note I had a friend that I could not get into contact with for over a month. he was in the hospital for 3 weeks with lung related problems. He does not smoke cigarettes but he was vaping regularly.



Yes, smoking is far worse. It's not just the nicotine in cigarette smoke. There are other carcinogens in cigarette smoke as well.

We do know that nicotine isn't good for you no matter how it is taken in but cigarette smoking is the worst as far as health problems associated with it.

Edit: Here's a list of some of the chemicals found in cigarette smoke:


*Acetaldehyde* - this chemical is used in resins and glues. It is believed to be a carcinogen. Experts say it is likely that it facilitates the absorption of other dangerous chemical into the bronchial tubes.
*Acetone* - this chemical is used in solvents. It irritates the eyes, nose and throat. Long-term exposure can damage the liver and kidneys.
*Acrolein* - commonly used in herbicides and polyester resins. It is also used in chemical warfare. Acrolein is an ingredient in tear gas. It is very poisonous and irritates the eyes and upper respiratory tract.
*Acrylonitrile* - also known as vynil cyanide. Experts believe it is a human carcinogen. It is used in synthetic resins, rubber and plastics.
*1-aminonaphthalene* - in ingredient in weed killers. It is a known carcinogen.
*2-aminonaphthalene* - this substance causes bladder cancer. It is banned in industrial uses.
*Ammonia* - it is known to cause asthma and raise blood pressure. Ammonia is used in cleaners.
*Benzene* - used in gasoline, causes several cancers, including leukemia
*Benzo[a]pyrene* - this chemical is found in coal tar pitch, and creosote. It is a known carcinogen, especially for lung and skin cancers. It can also undermine human fertility.
*1,3-Butadiene* - it is used in latex, rubber and neoprene products. Experts believe it is most likely a carcinogen.
*Butyraldehyde* - this chemical affects the lining of the lungs and nose. It is used in solvents and resins. It is a powerful inhalation irritant.
*Cadmium* - a known carcinogen. It damages the brain, kidneys and liver. Cadmium is used in non-corrosive metal coatings, storage batteries, pigments, and bearings.
*Catechol* - it elevates blood pressure and irritates the upper respiratory tract. It can also cause dermatitis. Catechol is used as an antioxidant in oils, inks and dyes.
*Chromium* - known to cause lung cancer. It is used in wood treatment, wood preservatives, metal plating and alloys. Those involved in welding have the greatest risk of exposure.
*Cresol* - acute inhalation can cause throat, nasal and upper respiratory irritation. It is used in disinfectants, wood preservatives and solvents.
*Crotonaldehyde* - a warning agent in fuel gasses. Experts say it messes up the human immune system. It can also cause chromosomal changes.
*Formaldehyde* - part of the resin used in foam insulation, plywood, fiberboard and particleboard. It can cause nasal cancer, as well as damaging the digestive system, skin and lungs.
*Hydrogen Cyanide* - some states use this chemical in their gas chambers for executions. It weakens the lungs and causes fatigue, headaches and nausea. It is used in the production of acrylic plastics and resins, and can also be a fumigant.
*Hydroquinone* - has a detrimental effect on the central nervous system. Also causes eye injuries and skin irritation. It is used in varnishes, motor fuels and paints.
*Isoprene* - similar to 1,3-butadiene. It causes skin, eye and mucous membrane irritation. It is used in rubber.
*Lead* - lead damages the nerves in the brain, as well as the kidneys and the human reproductive system. Lead intake can also cause stomach problems and anemia. It is a known carcinogen and is particularly toxin to children. Lead is used in paint and metal alloys.
*Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) * - depresses the human nervous system, irritates the eyes, nose and throat. MEK is used in solvents.
*Nickel* - a known carcinogen, nickel also causes bronchial asthma and upper respiratory irritation.
*Nitric Oxide* - this is a major contributor to smog and acid rain. It is made by gasoline combustion. Scientists say it is linked to a higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, Huntington's disease and asthma.
*NNN, NNK, and NAT* - NNN and NNK are known carcinogens and NAT might be one. The three compounds are unique to tobacco. NNN may also cause reproductive problems.  NNK is closely linked to lung cancer risk.
*Phenol* - this highly toxic substance is harmful for the CNS (central nervous system), cardiovascular system, respiratory system, the kidneys and liver. It is used in resins in plywood and construction materials.
*Propionaldehyde* - irritates the respiratory system, skin and eyes. It is used as a disinfectant.
*Pyridine* - irritates the eyes and upper respiratory tract. It also causes nervousness, headaches and nausea. Experts say it might cause liver damage. This substance is used in solvents.
*Quinoline* - it is used for stopping corrosion and also as a solvent for resins. It is a severe eye irritant, is harmful to the liver, and causes genetic mutations. Experts believe it may be a carcinogen.
*Resorcinol *- irritates the eyes and skin. It is used in resins, adhesives (glue) and laminates.
*Styrene* - irritates the eyes, may slow down reflexes, and causes headaches. It is linked to a higher risk of leukemia. This substance is used in fiberglass, pipes, plastic and insulation materials.
*Toluene* - causes confusion, memory loss, nausea, weakness, anorexia, and drunken movements. It is also associated with permanent brain damage. The chemical is used in resins, oils and solvents.
*Nicotine* - this is not carcinogenic. However, it is highly addictive. Smokers find it very hard to quit because they are hooked on the nicotine. Nicotine is an extremely fast-acting drug. It reaches the brain within 15 seconds of being inhaled. If cigarettes and other tobacco products had no nicotine, the number of people who smoke every day would drop drastically. Without nicotine, the tobacco industry would collapse. Nicotine is used as a highly controlled insecticide. Exposure to sufficient amounts can lead to vomiting, seizures, depression of the CNS (central nervous system), and growth retardation. It can also undermine a fetus' proper development.
*Carbon Monoxide* - this is a poisonous gas. It has no smell or taste. The body finds it hard to differentiate carbon monoxide from oxygen and absorbs it into the bloodstream. Faulty boilers emit dangerous carbon monoxide, as to car exhausts. If there is enough carbon monoxide around you and you inhale it, you can go into a coma and die. Carbon monoxide decreases muscle and heart function, it causes fatigue, weakness, and dizziness. It is especially toxic for babies still in the womb, infants and indifividuals with heart or lung disease.
*Tar* - consists of several cancer-causing chemicals. When a smoker inhales cigarette smoke, 70% of the tar remains in the lungs. Try the handkerchief test. Fill the mouth with smoke, don't inhale, and blow the smoke through the handkerchief. There will be a sticky, brown stain on the cloth. Do this again, but this time inhale and the blow the smoke through the cloth, there will only be a very faint light brown stain.









						What Chemicals Are In Cigarette Smoke?
					

Experts say that cigarette smoke contains over 4,000 different compounds. We take a look at the chemicals and compounds found in cigarette smoke.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


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## Tatty_One (Sep 16, 2019)

I started on vaping with a strength of 18mg, I am now on 1mg, I am hopeful that by Xmas I will be Nicotine free, if so I  will vape for 3-6 months with no Nicotine and then just stop. I can't speak for anywhere else in the world but in the UK, Lung related effects that are smoking related are not good but still a very small fraction of the population with Lung issues, heart conditions over here are more prevalent with smokers, that and strokes sadly all my point there is that people, even smokers get lung related ailments that are not directly a result of smoking, even I got pneumonia as a child well before I started smoking.

Having said all that, I do see a lot of people who almost non stop vape throughout the day but cloud chasers are very likely to have very low Nicotine mixes (3mg), it's the people that have never smoked now vaping that worry me the most.  Like anything though, if anyone vapes and messes with the standard additives/mixes then I can only imagine the risk increases significantly.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 16, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> I started on vaping with a strength of 18mg, I am now on 1mg, I am hopeful that by Xmas I will be Nicotine free, if so I  will vape for 3-6 months with no Nicotine and then just stop. I can't speak for anywhere else in the world but in the UK, Lung related effects that are smoking related are not good but still a very small fraction of the population with Lung issues, heart conditions over here are more prevalent with smokers, that and strokes sadly all my point there is that people, even smokers get lung related ailments that are not directly a result of smoking, even I got pneumonia as a child well before I started smoking.
> 
> Having said all that, I do see a lot of people who almost non stop vape throughout the day but cloud chasers are very likely to have very low Nicotine mixes (3mg), it's the people that have never smoked now vaping that worry me the most.  Like anything though, if anyone vapes and messes with the standard additives/mixes then I can only imagine the risk increases significantly.


If you've gotten to where cigarettes smell nasty and you wouldn't go back to them anyways... Just stop.
I know you've got it planned out but plans and addiction don't work... Just stop.
Find something that helps keep you calm.
I used marijuana to stay calm..some people get a prescription of Bupropian.


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## authorized (Sep 16, 2019)

Perhaps it's mostly about money, tobacco tax is a huge source of revenue, one that starts to dwindle when more and more people switch to vaping. So... ban, regulate, tax and reintroduce when the state can profit from it.



FordGT90Concept said:


> They all vaped.  CDC said they aren't draw conclusions yet besides that specifically responding to the notion that cannabis oil vaping was to blame.  In other words, they likely have evidence that some cases didn't involve cannabis.
> 
> The mystery is why so few people are afflicted with the condition out of those that do vape.


Seems to me that CDC is either incompetent or has an agenda, because they aren't helping anybody but anti-vaping advocates with their silence.

The most logical explanation, with the information available, is that those people simply got poisoned. They were inhaling something they shouldn't have.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Addiction risk is potentially much worse with vaping because the amount of nicotine can vary hugely.  Cigarettes only have 6-12 mg/mL. Vapes can go as high as 36 mg/mL.


That's disingenuous, it's a different delivery method and those values are not directly comparable.

Btw, you can mix juice on your own that will have even higher amounts - but, so what?


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## Growle (Sep 16, 2019)

jmcslob said:


> If you've gotten to where cigarettes smell nasty and you wouldn't go back to them anyways... Just stop.
> I know you've got it planned out but plans and addiction don't work... Just stop.
> Find something that helps keep you calm.
> I used marijuana to stay calm..some people get a prescription of Bupropian.



Using chemicals to wean off a chemical dependency kind of goes against the whole point. 

Sure, weed is ok in lots of places, but it's most popular use is still via burning it and inhaling the smoke, which still contains chemicals/carcinogens. Bupropian is a straight up chemical that has it's own collection of potential side-effects, and you can't smoke it...

Quitting outright is the easiest answer, but the hardest action. ​Addiction is difficult, and relapse is an ever-present reality.  

Going back to the main issue, the people that were dying from vaping were inhaling THC from their vapes. The current suspect was vitamin E acetate, which was added to cartridges as a thickening additive.

There is no denying that ANY type of vapor being sent into the lungs will cause damage over time, but some are worse than others. At this point it's a matter of choice and control...

Why are people focused on the fact that young people are dying from vaping, without giving any thought to WHAT they were vaping and from which device? A few decades ago this would have been attributed to reefer madness ffs.


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## authorized (Sep 16, 2019)

Growle said:


> Why are people focused on the fact that young people are dying from vaping, without giving any thought to WHAT they were vaping and from which device? A few decades ago this would have been attributed to reefer madness ffs.


Because we live in a post-fact, post-truth society? Especially in America, which has been unreasonable about many things for a long time now.
None of those who are so outspoken and authoritative about this whole issue seem to actually care.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

authorized said:


> Seems to me that CDC is either incompetent or has an agenda, because they aren't helping anybody but anti-vaping advocates with their silence.
> 
> The most logical explanation, with the information available, is that those people simply got poisoned. They were inhaling something they shouldn't have.


Yes but CDC needs to identify and verify the poison.  They can't conclude anything without proof.




authorized said:


> That's disingenuous, it's a different delivery method and those values are not directly comparable.
> 
> Btw, you can mix juice on your own that will have even higher amounts - but, so what?


It's like people dying from Marinol (pure THC).  When you isolate active ingredients, they can have different effects--especially when it's so easy to raise and lower the amount of it.  That's why this isn't an open and shut case like contaminated eggs or lettuce (they're all stamped with codes that give the date, time, and location they were produced).  There's a lot of variables in play.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 16, 2019)

jmcslob said:


> If you've gotten to where cigarettes smell nasty and you wouldn't go back to them anyways... Just stop.
> I know you've got it planned out but plans and addiction don't work... Just stop.
> Find something that helps keep you calm.
> I used marijuana to stay calm..some people get a prescription of Bupropian.


So marijuana is neither addictive or harmful?  I would suggest it is a good deal safer vaping so not sure what benefits that would bring over what is for me at least "now", is a mild Nicotine addiction.  As for Tobacco, I ask again, why is it still legal when currently it kills an infinitely greater number of people than vaping or marijuana...……………. probably because it would just go underground and all those tax revenue's would not be forthcoming but of course that's for the future (maybe) because as I understand it, vaping is not banned, just in certain public places.  In the UK, pretty much everywhere you cannot smoke you cannot vape either.  Nicotine is a stimulant (initially) so it does not really keep me calm.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 16, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> So marijuana is neither addictive or harmful?  I would suggest it is a good deal safer vaping so not sure what benefits that would bring over what is for me at least "now", is a mild Nicotine addiction.  As for Tobacco, I ask again, why is it still legal when currently it kills an infinitely greater number of people than vaping or marijuana...……………. probably because it would just go underground and all those tax revenue's would not be forthcoming but of course that's for the future (maybe) because as I understand it, vaping is not banned, just in certain public places.  In the UK, pretty much everywhere you cannot smoke you cannot vape either.  Nicotine is a stimulant (initially) so it does not really keep me calm.


No, marijuana is not physically addictive.
Marijuana can be mentally addictive.
Marijuana is a good stop smoking cessation because it gives you the feel of the draw (inhale) you get from smoking and it is initially a stimulant then a calming agent.
Regardless of using marijuana or something else, I still urge people to use something that helps them calm down.

Nicotine needs removed from the market.
I don't care how many people lose their jobs it's not worth it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

Marijuana, like tobacco, have limited toxicity because the active ingredients are in trace amounts.  When you purify those active ingredients (nicotine/THC), lethality skyrockets.  Opium poppy isn't very lethal...but heroin is.  Fentanyl is made in a lab inspired by heroin synthesized from poppy...it's 40 times more potent than heroin.  If it isn't diluted, a drop the size of a pin head can kill.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 16, 2019)

jmcslob said:


> No, marijuana is not physically addictive.
> Marijuana can be mentally addictive.
> Marijuana is a good stop smoking cessation because it gives you the feel of the draw (inhale) you get from smoking and it is initially a stimulant then a calming agent.
> Regardless of using marijuana or something else, I still urge people to use something that helps them calm down.
> ...


Well, all I can say is, I don't take Nicotine to make me calm, and in the UK at least, there is a very good reason why marijuana is illegal and Smoking tobacco is not, and that's because marijuana is categorised as mind altering and Nicotine despite it's faults is much less harmful in the dosage the average user absorbs when not used in conjunction with tobacco, what kills people with tobacco is not nicotine.  On top of that, apparently marijuana IS addictive to around 10% of users, so those unlucky 10% get the addiction and mind altering.

I think it fairly safe to say, none of what has been discussed is good!


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 16, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> Well, all I can say is, I don't take Nicotine to make me calm, and in the UK at least, there is a very good reason why marijuana is illegal and Smoking tobacco is not, and that's because marijuana is categorised as mind altering and Nicotine despite it's faults is much less harmful in the dosage the average user absorbs when not used in conjunction with tobacco, what kills people with tobacco is not nicotine.  On top of that, apparently marijuana IS addictive to around 10% of users, so those unlucky 10% get the addiction and mind altering.
> 
> I think it fairly safe to say, none of what has been discussed is good!


As a former smoker of 20+ years I can tell you they got the dangers of marijuana and nicotine backwards... Lol
Marijuana should be legal.. Nicotine should not be.
Trust me.. nicotine is more mind altering than you realize but you really can't explain it to an addict.


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## Steevo (Sep 16, 2019)

authorized said:


> Nothing else than fearmongering. Perhaps they were vaping some weird shit and that's what made them ill, just like it sometimes happens with contaminated drugs.
> Nearly 100 cases of mysterious illness _possibly linked_ to vaping vs many millions vapers in the world, somehow I'm not convinced. If there are still undiscovered harmful effects, discover them and present specific information.
> 
> @silentbogo
> I doubt you know all the toxins and other substances that are in your fags, there are hundreds if not thousands of them.


Cigs have tar, vape has....... Who knows what all is in them.

One of the first things we learn is to stay away from vaporized oils. They coat your avioli and can kill the microphages that try to clean it up, and the first two ingredients are "oil" substances that aren't burned but vaporized. Sounds like a recipe for pain.


----------



## Grog6 (Sep 16, 2019)

The big problem is you don't know what's in there, because it's not regulated.

Someone apparently added topical Vitamin E (meant for the skin) and put it in the vape liquid, and it messed up a bunch of people's lungs.

Other people we vaping weed based stuff that was fake weed, like bath salts, and it really messed them up.

Breathing Propylene glycol isn't great for you, but is shouldn't make your lungs fall out; it's what's used in commercial smoke machines.

If they would make them put labels on it, and check for accuracy like they do for food, this wouldn't happen.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

Thing is that tobacco products aren't regulated by the FDA so by extension, vaping products aren't either.  I highly doubt the FDA has any interest is helping people poison themselves more safely.


----------



## Vario (Sep 16, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Thing is that tobacco products aren't regulated by the FDA so by extension, vaping products aren't either.  I highly doubt the FDA has any interest is helping people poison themselves more safely.


Incorrect since 2009. Source:






						Federal Regulation of Tobacco | Public Health Law Center
					






					www.publichealthlawcenter.org
				





> On June 22, 2009, President Barack Obama signed into law the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, giving the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) comprehensive authority to regulate the manufacturing, marketing, and sale of tobacco products. The new law represents the most sweeping action taken to date to reduce what remains the leading preventable cause of death in the United States.











						The Facts on the FDA's New Tobacco Rule
					

Learn how it protects Americans from the dangers of tobacco products.




					www.fda.gov
				





> The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recently finalized a rule that extends its regulatory authority to all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, cigars, and hookah and pipe tobacco, as part of its goal to improve public health.
> ...
> It extends the FDA’s regulatory authority to all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes—which are also called electronic cigarettes or electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS)—all cigars (including premium ones), hookah (also called waterpipe tobacco), pipe tobacco, nicotine gels, and dissolvables that did not previously fall under the FDA’s authority.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 16, 2019)

Vario said:


> Yes I do.  Stop buying the products.  Find something else to do for a few months while your body adjusts.  Its not going to kill you.



No, nothing addictive ever influenced anyones decision making process ever...  Obviously they can just "decide" to stop.

Wow.  Nothing like ignoring the idea that by nature, addiction affects some moreso than others.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 16, 2019)

Vario said:


> Incorrect since 2009. Source:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For being 7 years old, there seems to be a distinct lack of action.  For example, there aren't full disclosures of active and inactive ingredients on the box, is there?


----------



## Vario (Sep 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> For being 7 years old, there seems to be a distinct lack of action.  For example, there aren't full disclosures of active and inactive ingredients on the box, is there?


Good point.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> For being 7 years old, there seems to be a distinct lack of action.  For example, there aren't full disclosures of active and inactive ingredients on the box, is there?


We over here seem to be ahead of you in that regard now, consumers can no longer even see a cigarette packet for sale, they have to be behind closed doors and out of sight, no prices displayed, plain same colour packets for all brands and covered in very gory and graphical pics of the effects of smoking, not sure if there are much in the way of stats yet to support whether this change in the law 7 years ago has had any significant effect as the reasons behind it mostly were preventative in terms of what was back then an increasing uptake of smoking by young people.

On the point of making comparisons in terms of "mind altering" between Nicotine and Marijuana, I am not so sure there is even a comparison to make, I spent 28 years in the British Army and we used to have random compulsory drug testing all the time, if a soldier of any rank was found positive for Marijuana (the tests could pick up trace elements from up to 6 months prior to the test) then that soldier would be discharged within 4 weeks and unemployed, the reasons behind that were clear, you cannot have soldiers around the world carrying live ammunition and loaded weapons with mind altering substances in their systems, even if only the few had mind altering effects, in those 28 years I never heard of a cigarette smoker getting discharged for the same reasons.  Not suggesting that I agree with it all but that is how it was.


----------



## ratirt (Sep 17, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> We over here seem to be ahead of you in that regard now, consumers can no longer even see a cigarette packet for sale, they have to be behind closed doors and out of sight, no prices displayed, plain same colour packets for all brands and covered in very gory and graphical pics of the effects of smoking, not sure if there are much in the way of stats yet to support whether this change in the law 7 years ago has had any significant effect as the reasons behind it mostly were preventative in terms of what was back then an increasing uptake of smoking by young people.


Is this supposed to be an improvement? You are buying something without knowing what it is, you can't choose product which you can't see, you dont know how much you pay for something which you dont know what it is, you don't know what it can do to you if you keep doing it (you are not even know what you got because you can't know) etc. Is this supposed to help the consumers? somehow I can't see any help to the consumer but to those who are selling this.


----------



## 64K (Sep 17, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> We over here seem to be ahead of you in that regard now, consumers can no longer even see a cigarette packet for sale, they have to be behind closed doors and out of sight, no prices displayed, plain same colour packets for all brands and covered in very gory and graphical pics of the effects of smoking, not sure if there are much in the way of stats yet to support whether this change in the law 7 years ago has had any significant effect as the reasons behind it mostly were preventative in terms of what was back then an increasing uptake of smoking by young people.
> 
> On the point of making comparisons in terms of "mind altering" between Nicotine and Marijuana, I am not so sure there is even a comparison to make, I spent 28 years in the British Army and we used to have random compulsory drug testing all the time, if a soldier of any rank was found positive for Marijuana (the tests could pick up trace elements from up to 6 months prior to the test) then that soldier would be discharged within 4 weeks and unemployed, the reasons behind that were clear, you cannot have soldiers around the world carrying live ammunition and loaded weapons with mind altering substances in their systems, even if only the few had mind altering effects, in those 28 years I never heard of a cigarette smoker getting discharged for the same reasons.  Not suggesting that I agree with it all but that is how it was.



But what about alcohol? The last I heard you can even buy alcohol from the military base commissaries here in the US.

Personally I think they should just legalize pot since it's legal to drink alcohol which is more harmful imo.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 17, 2019)

ratirt said:


> Is this supposed to be an improvement? You are buying something without knowing what it is, you can't choose product which you can't see, you dont know how much you pay for something which you dont know what it is, you don't know what it can do to you if you keep doing it (you are not even know what you got because you can't know) etc. Is this supposed to help the consumers? somehow I can't see any help to the consumer but to those who are selling this.


Arguably in prevention it could be although as I said, I have not researched any stats over the last 7 years, I suppose one of the tools of prevention is to make a product more difficult to obtain?  If I was still a smoker I would just walk up to the counter and ask for a pack of my favourite cigarettes and a little research would tell me how much I should expect to pay, but for those young people who have not smoked before it may not be so easy so therefore they may not buy?  I was not suggesting it is a good idea, I was stating it is law.

As far as alcohol is concerned, again in the British Army, it is not allowed on operations, and I would guess because it is not illegal where pot is.  As for harmful?  like in most things, that depends on the quantity you take, one beer is unlikely to remain in your bloodstream for as long as one spliff.


----------



## ratirt (Sep 17, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> Arguably in prevention it could be although as I said, I have not researched any stats over the last 7 years, I suppose one of the tools of prevention is to make a product more difficult to obtain?  If I was still a smoker I would just walk up to the counter and ask for a pack of my favourite cigarettes and a little research would tell me how much I should expect to pay, but for those young people who have not smoked before it may not be so easy so therefore they may not buy?  I was not suggesting it is a good idea, I was stating it is law.
> 
> As far as alcohol is concerned, again in the British Army, it is not allowed on operations, and I would guess because it is not illegal where pot is.  As for harmful?  like in most things, that depends on the quantity you take, one beer is unlikely to remain in your bloodstream for as long as one spliff.


From the experience of all the nation (I hope), if something is hard to get or is partially legal the hankering for having it is increased. Especially for young ones.
Look at prohibition with alcohol in the US and the consequences. They have legalized it and the problem was gone. I said this previously. Legalize everything and only those with heads on their necks will survive. People with control issues will be gone. 
You can't legalize things and than make people willing to buy it, don't know what they are buying and for what price and what it does. Because you don't want them to buy it. If that's what you are after dont legalize it.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 17, 2019)

ratirt said:


> From the experience of all the nation (I hope), if something is hard to get or is partially legal the hankering for having it is increased. Especially for young ones.
> Look at prohibition with alcohol in the US and the consequences. They have legalized it and the problem was gone. I said this previously. Legalize everything and only those with heads on their necks will survive. People with control issues will be gone.
> You can't legalize things and than make people willing to buy it, don't know what they are buying and for what price and what it does. Because you don't want them to buy it. If that's what you are after dont legalize it.


I agree, however there were less people drinking alcohol during the prohibition than there were before from the bits I have read, it just failed to stop those that already drank regularly (but I am no expert).  The point here though is that from what I can see with UK legislation (good or bad, I don't have a stance) in 2008 the law stopped smoking in most public places, then as I said, in 2012 all the new marketing and selling regulation came in and there is evidence to suggest that the number of tobacco smokers in this country have almost halved since 2008 and the number of under 18 year olds starting smoking has reduced by 70% so whether you or I agree with it, it appears at least to be working as intended.
Having been a smoker for almost 44 years one thing I will never be is a hypocrite, I believe in the freedom to make your own choices but from a health perspective the less addictions (whatever the poison is) that society has is a good thing.


----------



## ratirt (Sep 17, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> I agree, however there were less people drinking alcohol during the prohibition than there were before from the bits I have read, it just failed to stop those that already drank regularly (but I am no expert).  The point here though is that from what I can see with UK legislation (good or bad, I don't have a stance) in 2008 the law stopped smoking in most public places, then as I said, in 2012 all the new marketing and selling regulation came in and there is evidence to suggest that the number of tobacco smokers in this country have almost halved since 2008 and the number of under 18 year olds starting smoking has reduced by 70% so whether you or I agree with it, it appears at least to be working as intended.
> Having been a smoker for almost 44 years one thing I will never be is a hypocrite, I believe in the freedom to make your own choices but from a health perspective the less addictions (whatever the poison is) that society has is a good thing.


It is like drinking coffee. Some people drink it some people don't. You are focusing on the wrong thing here. Maybe people had drink less during the prohibition and maybe that is true but countless died because of it. Do you want to focus on material subject or on people?
Actually stopping smoking in the public is good because it protects those who don't smoke. I'm a smoker and I'm glad it happened that way. It was the right way to go.
People need to understand what's bad and good for them but I think they have lost their judgement lately. Controlling, forcing to forbid even if accessible others is not a good idea. Sooner or later they will get angry and force governments to release the law and they go crazy with it. many countries have legalization of tobacco but underaged can't buy it. UK same. Doesn't this prevent the young ones from buying it? If it doesn't then the problem is not in the younglings wanting it but the problem is execution of the clause "underaged will not be able to by smokes". If that is the case what makes you so sure this new law will prevent young people from ding it and abusing it?  Statistics is not accurate here because it is flawed when it comes to people.


----------



## Grog6 (Sep 17, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> For being 7 years old, there seems to be a distinct lack of action.  For example, there aren't full disclosures of active and inactive ingredients on the box, is there?



It's a plant product, thus no ingredients, it's not brewed up in a lab.
Did you ever see an ingredients label on an Apple?

Vaping products are.


----------



## ratirt (Sep 17, 2019)

Grog6 said:


> It's a plant product, thus no ingredients, it's not brewed up in a lab.
> Did you ever see an ingredients label on an Apple?
> 
> Vaping products are.


Exactly right.
If you smoke grass (regular dried grass) with a rolled newspaper would it be healthier than a cigarette? Of course not because of the combustion process. Simple.
Yet legalize weed for smoking because it is good but smokes are bad and you can't know what you buy and for how much because it is unhealthy.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 17, 2019)

Grog6 said:


> It's a plant product, thus no ingredients, it's not brewed up in a lab.
> Did you ever see an ingredients label on an Apple?


Some of the carcinogens are in the cigarette manufacture itself (adhesives, filters, etc.).  They know enough to provide some specificity (e.g. nicotine mg/mL) and FDA apparently has the authority to make them disclose that now but they aren't.  Odds are, big tobacco finds a way to stall whatever the FDA tries so all the FDA can do is buy samples and test them so they have the data on file but can't do anything with it.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 18, 2019)

India bans e-cigarettes as global backlash at vaping gathers pace
					

India banned the sale of electronic cigarettes on Wednesday and warned of an "epidemic" among young people, in the latest and potentially biggest move globally against vaping over growing health concerns.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 18, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> India bans e-cigarettes as global backlash at vaping gathers pace
> 
> 
> India banned the sale of electronic cigarettes on Wednesday and warned of an "epidemic" among young people, in the latest and potentially biggest move globally against vaping over growing health concerns.
> ...


So not actually banned, just the marketing and sale of them is banned because of so many young people taking up Nicotine through E Cigarettes which in many ways makes sense, so if you have one already or can purchase one outside of the country then you can use it freely, in that case I may visit again on holiday!  

It is probably no coincidence that I received an e mail this morning from the company I get my e liquids from, just for information I copy and paste below, apologies in advance as it is fairly long...……………..


​
​*LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACTS*​

​




​








​
 You may have heard many stories from the US regarding cases of vaping illness. Unfortunately, the reporting on this by the Media both in the US and the UK has been purposefully misleading and is neglecting to highlight the key facts of the situation.

 Whilst there are no conclusive answers to authorities' investigations in the US yet, there are a number of key facts both about this investigation, and the UK vs US market in general, that we feel will help you understand and give clarity of the situation: ​




​
​
*Most patients suffering from this illness in the US have reported a history of using e-cigarette cartridges containing THC/Marijuana. In the majority of US states (and where the majority of these cases are being reported), such products are illegal, which means they were bought from street drug-dealers. These products are illegal in the UK and completely unrelated to the products that we sell in our stores *[1]

​
*The only common link besides THC that has been found in further testing, is the presence of Vitamin E Oil. This is a well-known cheap substance that is used to "cut" THC liquids whilst maintaining the appearance of a pure product. Vaping Vitamin E is extremely dangerous, and its presence in patients' products which have been tested, points squarely to illegitimate and irresponsible street dealers. [2]*

​
The dangers of vaping such oils have been well known for many years. *This is why they are not present in a single one of our E-Liquids*. They serve no purpose in nicotine E-Liquid, and would only be added to THC liquids by street dealers to improve profit.

​
Unlike the US market for vaping products, *the UK market has very strict testing, compliance and ingredient regulations, administered by the MHRA (Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency). *At Ubervape we adhere to every single one of these regulations. We only stock products from official authorized distributors which have undergone vigorous toxicology testing.

​
The MHRA also runs a Yellow Card Scheme for reporting side-effects of e-cigarette usage. *There have been zero reported cases since its introduction in 2016.*

​
British health experts have re-assured the public that British vapers are safe. Public Health England, Health Experts at the University of Edinburgh and Oxford, and smoking charity ASH have all re-iterated this point, for the same reasons listed above [3]

​
Public Health England still maintains their view that e-cigarettes are at least 95% less harmful than smoking. [4]

​




​



*MORE FACTS*​
*​*


[COLOR=D3D3D3]Furthermore, here are some statistics on Smoking and Vaping in the UK:[/COLOR]​
[COLOR=D3D3D3]Smoking: Estimated 100,000+ deaths per year. [/COLOR][COLOR=D3D3D3][5][/COLOR]
[COLOR=D3D3D3]Vaping: 0 deaths from vaping since their introduction to the UK market 14 years ago.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=D3D3D3]There are 7.2 million smokers in the UK [/COLOR][COLOR=D3D3D3][6][/COLOR]
[COLOR=D3D3D3]Smoking costs our economy in excess of £11bn per year. [/COLOR][COLOR=D3D3D3][5][/COLOR]
[COLOR=D3D3D3]This year had the fastest drop in smoking rates in over a decade [/COLOR][COLOR=D3D3D3][7][/COLOR]

[COLOR=D3D3D3]If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask our staff or speak to our customer service team.[/COLOR][/COLOR]​


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 19, 2019)

U.S. cases of vaping-related illness rise to 530 as outbreak widens
					

U.S. health officials said on Thursday there are now 530 confirmed and probable cases and seven deaths from severe lung-related illnesses tied to vaping, and there are no signs that the outbreak is easing.




					www.reuters.com
				





			
				Reuters said:
			
		

> The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is now investigating more than 150 products and substances and said it has activated its criminal investigations arm to explore the supply chain of vaping products and identify the cause of the outbreak.



@Tatty_One if it was as simple as THC and vitamin E, they wouldn't still be investigating.


			
				Reuters said:
			
		

> Zeller said no single substance or compound, including THC or Vitamin E acetate, has been linked to all of the cases so far.





			
				Reuters said:
			
		

> Schuchat said no e-cigarette or vaping product, substance, additive or brand has been consistently identified in all of the cases, nor has any one product or substance been conclusively linked to lung injury in patients.





			
				Reuters said:
			
		

> She repeated the CDC’s advice that people should quit vaping if they can. Those who continue should monitor themselves for symptoms such as breathing issues, dry cough or chest pain, and in some cases diarrhea, vomiting and fever, and should not hesitate to seek help from their doctors.
> 
> For people who use nicotine-containing e-cigarettes as a way to quit smoking cigarettes, she urged people not to return to cigarette smoking. Instead, she urged people to consider counseling or using FDA-approved smoking cessation products.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 19, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> U.S. cases of vaping-related illness rise to 530 as outbreak widens
> 
> 
> U.S. health officials said on Thursday there are now 530 confirmed and probable cases and seven deaths from severe lung-related illnesses tied to vaping, and there are no signs that the outbreak is easing.
> ...


Well I couldn't comment on that but what I will say is effective regulation reduces risks, we have so many rules/laws over here (UK) and in the EU around both the liquids and the hardware so it seems very strange that not a single related death has been reported in the UK but it appears that's not the case with you?  I can only guess that what is used is different for whatever reason otherwise we would have some too.
Arguably, 150 deaths from however many million vapers you have is still a tiny fraction of the likely amount of smoking related deaths but as I stated a few days back, nobody is saying it's safe, just possibly SAFER with good controls.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 20, 2019)

U.S. scientists join effort to solve mysterious vaping-related illnesses
					

The U.S. investigation into hundreds of cases of life-threatening lung illnesses related to vaping has turned up a curious abnormality: Many of the victims had pockets of oil clogging up cells responsible for removing impurities in the lungs.




					www.reuters.com
				











						U.S. senators urge FDA to remove pod, cartridge-based e-cigarettes from market
					

A bipartisan group of U.S. senators on Friday urged federal regulators to immediately remove all pod and cartridge-based e-cigarettes from the market until it can be proven the products are safe.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## P4-630 (Sep 20, 2019)




----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 20, 2019)

I wonder why US senators are not urging the ban of cigarettes that kill  thousands of times more people than your reported 150 with vaping so far, would that be because they get little revenue from Vaping and Billions from tobacco?  Seems this is not a health issue but more a GDP thing.
Good news just in though...…….. It's safe in the UK so Tatty may go into business exporting the stuff to his friends


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Sep 20, 2019)

Teen vaper: 'I would have died that night' | Reuters Video
					

Eighteen-year-old Simah Herman reveals the harrowing tale of her vaping-related illness - and how she is now on a mission to stop other teens from using e-cigarettes.




					www.reuters.tv
				



"...the more flavors in a liquid the more likely it was to be toxic..."
"...in about 150 e-liquids we found about 200 different chemical constituents."
Explains why Trump is moving to ban flavored vape liquids.

CDC flatly says "youth and young adults should not use e-cigarette products."









						Walmart to stop sales of e-cigarettes in U.S. stores: company memo
					

Walmart Inc <WMT.N> told staff on Friday it will stop selling e-cigarettes and electronic nicotine delivery products at its U.S. stores, amid a growing crackdown on surging teenage use of such products, reports of vaping-related lung disease and some deaths.




					www.reuters.com
				



Mostly because they don't want to try to keep up with all the regulations and laws being passed.


----------



## Vario (Sep 20, 2019)

P4-630 said:


>


Popcorn lung.


----------



## Devon68 (Sep 21, 2019)

Might be a stupid way of looking at things but. Are you a chimney? No. Well Stop Smoking.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 21, 2019)

Devon68 said:


> Might be a stupid way of looking at things but. Are you a chimney? No. Well Stop Smoking.


Most of the people who are vaping have stopped smoking, that's exactly the point, there is no smoke involved with vaping   

Ford may well have a point in his last post about flavours, maybe the trend is different with mixing in the US, I know lots of vapers but I have never come across any of them that use more than 2 flavours in their mix, many just one.  I saw an hour long documentary in the UK about vaping around a year ago and it was very interesting, they tested around 80  juice flavours and only 3 showed the slightest traces of anything remotely harmful but in such small quantities it was estimated it would take approx 50 years of very heavy vaping to have any physical effects from it, all 3 had menthol in the flavouring...…… rightly or wrongly I steer away from any menthol flavours.

They ran a test in the documentary over a 2 year period, they involved 2000 smokers all aged between 35 and 45, all smoking 20-30 cigarettes a day and all had been smoking for at least 10 years, 4 groups of 500, one group carried on smoking for 2 years as they wanted to run tests on how much heath is affected over that period because of smoking, 500 had to go cold turkey to quit using no aids, 500 used nicotine chewing gum, patches etc and 500 on e cigarettes, they all had the same devices, what I would call mid ranged in terms of power output, all used the same nicotine strength, the interesting part of these tests (apart from the obvious health data for the smoking group) was that after 2 years the groups who were monitored closely throughout the period ended up as follows......

Smoking Group - all still smoking as the health effects were the test here
Cold turkey group - 489 still smoking
Gum/patch group - 396 still smoking
Vaping group - 17 still smoking

The key message was actually not the success of the vaping group but...……. it's better to not smoke or vape, vaping is an effective tool in the bid to stop smoking however success is actually measured by how many move from vaping to nothing.

If I can find it anywhere on line I will post the link.


----------



## 64K (Sep 21, 2019)

Maybe I'm wrong but I think vaping is partially aimed at teens. Hence the flavors. Kind of reminds me when Camel put out their flavored cigarettes that appealed to teens. They even had a chocolate flavored cigarette iirc.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 21, 2019)

64K said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but I think vaping is partially aimed at teens. Hence the flavors. Kind of reminds me when Camel put out their flavored cigarettes that appealed to teens. They even had a chocolate flavored cigarette iirc.


Again, I can only speak for the UK but vaping is absolutely and exclusively aimed at smokers, I say aimed, there is no marketing allowed.  Rumour has it that both smoking and vaping over here may have a law change regarding minimum age raising it from the current 18 to 21...…. it used to be 16 for smoking in my day.


----------



## 64K (Sep 27, 2019)

Well, Walmart plans to stop selling E-Cigarettes in it's stores. Citing the uncertainties associated with vaping and Trump's call to ban sales of most flavors. 8 people are believed to be dead from vaping.









						Walmart to Stop Selling All E-Cigarettes
					

Walmart will stop selling all e-cigarettes in its U.S. stores, citing regulatory uncertainty around the vaping devices after the White House announced plans to ban most flavors.




					www.wsj.com
				




Meanwhile Walmart will continue to sell regular cigarettes which are believed to be responsible for 480,000 deaths in the USA every year including 41,000 deaths from second hand smoke. It is estimated that around 67% of smokers eventually die from it. And 16 million Americans are living with a disease caused by smoking cigarettes.





__





						Fast Facts
					

See the fast facts regarding smoking and tobacco use.




					www.cdc.gov
				




Smoking causes cancer, heart disease, stroke, lung diseases, diabetes, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), which includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis.

Doesn't make any sense to ban E-Cigarettes and not ban cigarettes which are far, far more deadly.


----------



## Tatty_One (Sep 27, 2019)

Meanwhile, update from my liquid supplier (again)…………..

_You've probably seen the recent reporting of a vape scare in the USA, *which we covered on the blog here*. 

Unfortunately, there has been a lot of misinformation, so we wanted to share the facts with you. 

*What caused the illnesses?*

The FDA has now said that these respiratory illnesses have been caused by the use of a specific substance (Vitamin E Acetate) in unregulated THC/marijuana cartridges. These are illegal in the UK.

*What’s the situation in the UK?*
_



_No E-Cigarette Direct products, or indeed any regulated UK e-liquid, contain the ingredient found in the unregulated THC cartridges that have caused respiratory illnesses in the USA._​ 
_UK liquids have to be tested and submitted to the MHRA* before being sold in the UK. _​ 
_The MHRA monitors vaping carefully and has not found any connection between regulated e-liquid and respiratory illnesses, or any other major illnesses. _​ 
_The UK government, UK scientists and Public Health England have repeated that vaping UK regulated e-liquid is at least 95% safer than smoking. _​ 
_ 
*For more information see our article here.*

*What should you do to be safe?*

As always, you should only buy regulated e-liquid from responsible suppliers. A comprehensive list of registered e-liquids which can be found on the MHRA website *here*. 

All the best

The ECD Team

*Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Authority_


----------



## authorized (Sep 27, 2019)

64K said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but I think vaping is partially aimed at teens. Hence the flavors. Kind of reminds me when Camel put out their flavored cigarettes that appealed to teens. They even had a chocolate flavored cigarette iirc.


That would make sense if teens wanted flavours while adults preferred unflavoured or tobacco flavoured juice, but that is not the case.
Many smokers who switch to vaping start with tobacco flavours because they think it will help with the transition, but most of them quickly move to more "tasty" juices.

Some companies that make or sell vaping products may target teens in their marketing, but vaping in general, in its modern form, was invented for smokers.


----------



## robot zombie (Sep 27, 2019)

64K said:


> Well, Walmart plans to stop selling E-Cigarettes in it's stores. Citing the uncertainties associated with vaping and Trump's call to ban sales of most flavors. 8 people are believed to be dead from vaping.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I completely get thier angle... even if I also think it adds fuel to the fire of this absurd moral panic. Nobody's suing Walmart for selling them the cigarettes that would ultimately lead to thier cancer. Most people would call that pretty silly. But there is a very real chance that same could not be said about vapes. You can bet thier legal team is on it and those folks know the game well. Which... man... yeah I don't know what to make of it, but thier actions speak to the mindset behind the issue startlingly well, don't they? 

Strange as it truly is... such is the world we live in. So I can understand them not wanting to be sued over something vaping related. And beyond that Walmart tries really hard not to get caught on the wrong side of outcry. Wouldn't be the first time they leaned on empty virtue signalling in order to appear on the right side of things.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 27, 2019)

Tatty_One said:


> The FDA has now said that these respiratory illnesses have been caused by the use of a specific substance (Vitamin E Acetate) in unregulated THC/marijuana cartridges. These are illegal in the UK.


False. "No single product or substance has been linked to all lung injury cases."  Vitamin E acetate was eliminated as a culprit.  THC use is present in 77% of cases.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 27, 2019)

Hydrogen cyanide 








						Tests show bootleg marijuana vapes tainted with hydrogen cyanide
					

NBC News commissioned laboratory tests of knock-off marijuana vapes that found a pesticide linked to hydrogen cyanide in 10 out 10 products.




					www.nbcnews.com


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## robot zombie (Sep 27, 2019)

That 77% is self-reported accounts. I wonder how many of those asked were not willing to say they used thc. Especially considering that right now the focus is on clandestinely made and acquired cartridges.

That's still a pretty large majority either way. If we trust the numbers the vaping side might not even be related. Not to say it's not concerning... but the lumping in may obfuscate the real risk, which may not even have anything to do with flavors for all we know.

I can't pretend to have the answers, but then even the FDA and the CDC aren't making that claim. It's all still under investigation and will be for a while by the looks of things.

My personal opinion... they weren't paying enough attention. And now they're scrambling to figure out what happened. The lack of answers is only spurring panic. Though to be fair it is scary as hell. It's really not like the CDC to be this behind on something. They usually come up with the concise answer in a snap.

Things like this likely wouldn't be happening if we had taken a different route towards oversight and regulation. It's been back and forth between camp "ban it" and camp "wild west" from the start... just spinning our wheels. Somewhere back there was a decent middle ground. But nobody in a position to find it went looking for it... and so far too many things went unchecked.



jmcslob said:


> Hydrogen cyanide
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really good find. Thank you for that.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 27, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> False. "No single product or substance has been linked to all lung injury cases."  Vitamin E acetate was eliminated as a culprit.  THC use is present in 77% of cases.


Well I just copied and pasted, however you care to look at it,  77% is a solid majority, it all comes across (rightly or wrongly) as "_we are not regulating it and if we did we probably wouldn't have any deaths but that takes a little work so let's just ban it instead"_  It just appears to me that more US Vapours like messing with mixes and it's killing a few of them, again the FDA and Government appear to only care about that 150 dead vapers and choose to disregard the half million a year that die from smoking in your country but if taxable income is more important than life to some, neither you or I can do much about it...….. none of this in any case changes the fact that vaping, and even vaping by messing about with these liquids is hundreds of times safer than smoking, maybe the government across the pond wants all your vapers to quit and go back to smoking?  Makes no sense unless of course you are making money out of sick people.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 27, 2019)

The point is there's more to the illness and deaths than just THC.  THC may be a contributing factor but it's not the only factor.


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