# Wrong fan-setup?! Annoying "clicking" sound on one of the fans?



## winterwonderland (Sep 17, 2018)

once again, im curious about those fans...

1: here is a photo of how my current fan-setup is (ignore the dust as i have removed it all now), but it doesn't make sense the way they're setup... or does it? any thoughts on whether i should drop a fan or two or if i should just mount them differently? 

2: there's this annoying "clicking" sound that i hear inside my pc... as if something is hitting the blades of one of the fans... i tried to record the sound, but my phone doesnt manage to catch the sound... i tried to disable 1 fan at a time, but nope... maybe it's the fan of the cpu cooler?

here's the image of my fan-setup:





thanks in advance!


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## RealNeil (Sep 17, 2018)

flip the bottom fan.


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## winterwonderland (Sep 17, 2018)

RealNeil said:


> flip the bottom fan.



that all?  the others are all good?


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## RealNeil (Sep 17, 2018)

The proper formulary for case fans is:
All front, side, and bottom fans should be drawing air into the case.
All rear and top fans should be pushing air out of the case.

This results in the best air flow.


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## Caring1 (Sep 17, 2018)

Make sure none of the cables are close enough to interfere with the CPU cooler fan, and if you have the case on carpet, place something under it to lift it.
You don't want more dust being sucked in to the case.


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## winterwonderland (Sep 17, 2018)

RealNeil said:


> The proper formulary for case fans is:
> All front, side, and bottom fans should be drawing air into the case.
> All rear and top fans should be pushing air out of the case.
> 
> This results in the best air flow.



great! then i shall flip the fan as you suggested. thanks. 



Caring1 said:


> Make sure none of the cables are close enough to interfere with the CPU cooler fan, and if you have the case on carpet, place something under it to lift it.
> You don't want more dust being sucked in to the case.



hmm.. no cables are close the fans, so im not sure what is causing that sound, really.. but i will keep on investigating on that yes.

thank you for that tip! as a matter of fact, when i moved the pc to the living room, it's on a carpet yes. i have now lifted it a little.


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## Norton (Sep 17, 2018)

A small piece of tubing or a wood dowel make a great stethoscope for closing in on an annoying noise


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 18, 2018)

I recommend you buy one of these....


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## 95Viper (Sep 18, 2018)

In case you haven't...  Don't forget to check the GPU and PSU fans for the clicking sound.


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## John Naylor (Sep 20, 2018)

Clicking fans are usually caused by 4 things:

1.  The fan blade is hitting the shroud .... most often occurs on GPU fans as the shrouds are quite flimsy.

2.  Cheap PWM fans commonly click )or hum), especially at slow speeds

3.  A sleeve bearing or "levitation" fan is installed horizontally ... since it slides on shaft ir it's pushing down, the pressure against the blades is lifting it up but as rom slows, it falls back down making a noise when it hits the stop.

4.  A wire r plastic tie is hitting the blades.

Very easy to diagnose... open the case and place finger on each fan, when the clicking stops, you found the problem.

Also ... with rare exceptions ...

-Rear Fans blow out
-Front Fans blow in
-Bottom fans blow in

Top Fans blow out ... unless:

a)  There's a radiator there, rad fans always blow in, no exceptions.
b)  You don't have 1.5 intake fans for every exhaust fan

-Side Panel Fans -  Optional, subject to b above


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 20, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> 2.  Cheap PWM fans commonly click )or hum), especially at slow speeds



This statement is BS. Ive had Noctua's, Corsair SPs, Gentle Typhoons (the original Nidec/Scythe partnership ones) that clicked when you lowered the voltage with a fan controller. fan motor clicking can happen on any fan. some designs are just better than others.


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## Caring1 (Sep 20, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> ….Top Fans blow out ... unless:
> 
> a)  There's a radiator there, rad fans always blow in, no exceptions....


Rubbish, that's your opinion only.


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## RejZoR (Sep 22, 2018)

Define "clicking"? I've had Corsair fan in PSU that had spring to hold fan in the bearing shaft and as it was rotating, the spring was skipping over itself, causing clicking on every skip. Then, recently, I've had problem with oscillating noise which isn't exactly clicking when fans were at certain RPM on a curve. Running them at fixed RPM solved it. Which is why I'm asking if it's really clicking or just oscillating... Oscillating noise seems to be an issue with PWM fans sometimes...

Easiest way to find the offender is to stop one fan at a time and see which one is doing it. If it's oscillating noise, try using fixed RPM which solved it for me. If it's actually clicking and nothing is interfering, the fan might actually be defective. Doesn't matter if it's Noctua, I've seen crappy designs from them too...


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## dorsetknob (Sep 22, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> Top Fans blow out ... unless:
> 
> a) There's a radiator there, rad fans always blow in, no exceptions.


Sorry my fellow TPU'er
Fans on Rads Always move Hot Air OUT OF THE CASE.

ONLY AN I**T fILLS HIS CASE WITH HOT AIR


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## RejZoR (Sep 22, 2018)

Only time it makes sense to have radiator fans turned inside is if you're using single fan radiator and you have it mounted on front top position, so you're essentially pumping hot air into the top part of the case past other components. It's desired then that your rear exhaust fan is up to the task or you also have top fans. I've used such setup for over 5 years and it worked well and kept CPU exceptionally cooled because it was getting coldest possible air and wasn't affecting graphic card at all.


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## Solaris17 (Sep 22, 2018)

you could have tightened one too much, and its hitting the shroud, which you probably would have noticed by manually stopping them.

Try checking the

PSU

CPU

GPU

fans.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 22, 2018)

Radiator airflow is out for Top and Rear and it literally goes on a CASE by CASE basis for front mounted radiators.


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## winterwonderland (Oct 11, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> you could have tightened one too much, and its hitting the shroud, which you probably would have noticed by manually stopping them.
> 
> Try checking the
> 
> ...



Wait.. so when the fans are spinnin, i can manually stop them by putting a finger on the middle? It doesnt shut down the pc or anything? Took a long time for me to get around to this matter, sadly...


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 11, 2018)

ATX factor, Front and Bottom are Intake, rear and top are exhaust.

Fan flow is always towards the Hub


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## winterwonderland (Oct 11, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> ATX factor, Front and Bottom are Intake, rear and top are exhaust.
> 
> Fan flow is always towards the Hub



Ok so the photos i posted in OP are correct, except the bottom fan that i now have flipped?

Also, i can stop the fans manually with my finger when they are spinning huh?


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## RealNeil (Oct 11, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Also, i can stop the fans manually with my finger when they are spinning huh?



Yes, but not for long, and not all of the time.


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## John Naylor (Oct 13, 2018)

Caring1 said:


> Rubbish, that's your opinion only.



There will always be  a "It never happened to me so it's not real" school of thought.  Also the "cheap" adjective eliminates a lot of fans.  The cheap ones don't have the extra control ICs that eliminate the PWM sound

PWM click and humming has been well known "feature" of PWM

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9340

https://www.ekwb.com/blog/what-is-pwm-and-how-does-it-work/



> More quality fans have their own special IC driver chips within the motor hub that generate a sloped PWM signal instead of a flat square one. Flat square signals tend to create unpleasant clicking noises when the fan runs at low speeds. The sudden rise of power when the motor is given +12 volts results in the rotor being jerked, which in some cases creates the clicking sound.



Newer designs, even MoBo utilities, incorporate ramp up and down times.  For my build, I ramp the fans up rather quickly in response to rising temps but ramp it down over some 90 - 150 seconds to remove latent heat from coolant.  Because of newer fan designs the problem has become less and less over the years.  However now we can use PWM fan control  PCBs to power less expensive 3 pin fans for less cost and eliminating any PWM noise issues.... the proverbial "best of both" worlds".

Anyone interested in the topic can use a search engine for plenty of descriptions, mitigation measures etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pwm+noise&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

https://www.instructables.com/topics/How-to-eliminate-PWM-noise-at-slow-speeds-when-usi/
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9340

http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/00771b.pdf



> As previously explained, PWM acoustic noise is caused by the impulse torque generated by the fan motor during each  active  PWM  cycle.  Reducing  this  acoustic  noise involves  slowing  the  slew  rate  of  the  PWM  switching, thereby  “smoothing”  the  PWM  impulse  torque  profile.



There's also a hum that is sometimes at low speeds caused with EMI related ...









https://forum.duet3d.com/topic/3590/pwm-fan-noise

I haven't experienced it personally in 10 - 12 years... but we stopped using PWM about 5 years ago.  Before that, it was just a matter of either using the right fan or using ones with the "bump" in the cable which had the "thingy" (it's a technical term), that eliminates the noise.  You'll see it dsicussed mosatkly on water cooling forums where folks are running a number of rads, oft in push / pull where the mind set is more fans running at lower rpm than less fans running at higher rpms.  You are certainly not going to see it on a CLC with fans at extreme speeds.  These days, you generally have to get down to 300 - 450 rpm.

As for fan orientation....

front = Intake
rear = exhaust
bottom = intake
top = it depends

If you have 1.3 (Im an anal about cleaning my fan filters kinda guy) to 1.5 (I'm kinda lax in cleaning filters) times as many intakes as exhaust, then top fans can be exhaust.  If you ignore this....

a)  You will have negative case pressure. and no, dust is not the big issue here.
b)  with neg/pres, air has to get in somewhere ... most often that is thru vented slot covers and those large holes on your rear case grille.
c)  You can easily test this w/ a $39 garage band fog machine from Amazon.  When you do, exhausting the fog between the wall and your case rear, you case immediately fills up with smoke.
d)  when you watch the smoke being sucked in, start thinking about where the air is coming from .  It takes a few seconds but then comes the light bulb ... my 300 watt GFX card is exhausting right there .... my 750 watt PSU is exhausting right there.   Intake air will follow the path of least resistance.... so it's going to go thru those big  vents and holes at the rear a lot easier than it will pass thru your dust clogged air filters.

If you don't have that many intakes, then top fans should be intakes.  If you have radiator, rad fans are always always, *no exceptions *intakes. This is the 2nd law of water cooling... 1st is never mix metals within the loop.   Even tho CLC sellers violate the 1st rule, they don't violate the 2nd rule.

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Categ...00i-PRO-RGB-Liquid-CPU-Cooler/p/CW-9060033-WW

Page 4, Panel 3...



> Attach the radiator and the fans as shown.* For the best cooling performance*, we recommend *mounting the fans as an air-intake to your PC case.*



I liked saying this better when I had Gentle Typhoons on top of the case, and when Id hear what we all learned in 8th grade earth scienc that hot air rises.... no not in a room with a ceiling fan and not in a case when the Typhoons are blowing the other way.  If not convinced, spend the $39, grab the fog machine and blow the fog behind ya case ... then watch it fill up with fog.  And no, the heat will not get trapped inside... with 2 fans on top, 2 in front blowing in, the elevated pressure inside the case will push out all the hot air inside the case thru the path of least resistance.... those rear grille and slotted covers, taking all the heat out at a rate of around 2 full case vlumes every second.

Think about it this way .... ever use a window fan to cool down a room... do you install both an intake and exhaust fan ?  or just use 1 fan and open a window ?   Will it be cooler if you use the fan as intake or exhaust ?  Neither.   Have an exhaust hood over your stove ?  Does it have an intake fan ? Well if ya didnt suffocate from lack of oxygen, then an equal amount of air must be entering the kitchen.  In any enclosed space, the intake will always equal the exhaust.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 19, 2018)

Okay... i have now tried to figure out the fans and all, at last... i tried to disconnect 1 of the 4 noctua case fans that i have. 1 at a time. nope.. the clicking sound still occurs. so, as someone pointed out, it is then either the PSU, cpu or the gfx card fan making that sound. but.. how do i determine which of those it is making the noise?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 19, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Okay... i have now tried to figure out the fans and all, at last... i tried to disconnect 1 of the 4 noctua case fans that i have. 1 at a time. nope.. the clicking sound still occurs. so, as someone pointed out, it is then either the PSU, cpu or the gfx card fan making that sound. but.. how do i determine which of those it is making the noise?



Roll up a piece of paper and start listening... its not difficult to figure out.


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## John Naylor (Nov 19, 2018)

Well with the fan in / out issue settled once and for all, make sure that bottom fan is flipped.  As was installed pushing air down, many fans will slide along the shaft and take off like  a helicopter.  They can only go a mm or 2 but as it rises and falls it can create a clicking sound.  If used as in intake the 'equal and opposite' reaction will keep the fan in bottom position.

The tube thing works...as does a directional sound meter.  But you can take out the GFX card and see if it stops or just stop w/ ya finger ... may need to push it to restart.  Same thing with any fans on the CPU.  For PSY, disconnect your 24 pin and EPX cables from MoBo as well as cable to GFX vards.   Then to the paperclip thing on the 24 pin ...

https://www.wikihow.com/Check-a-Power-Supply

This will start the PSU and not the system


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## winterwonderland (Nov 20, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> Well with the fan in / out issue settled once and for all, make sure that bottom fan is flipped.  As was installed pushing air down, many fans will slide along the shaft and take off like  a helicopter.  They can only go a mm or 2 but as it rises and falls it can create a clicking sound.  If used as in intake the 'equal and opposite' reaction will keep the fan in bottom position.
> 
> The tube thing works...as does a directional sound meter.  But you can take out the GFX card and see if it stops or just stop w/ ya finger ... may need to push it to restart.  Same thing with any fans on the CPU.  For PSY, disconnect your 24 pin and EPX cables from MoBo as well as cable to GFX vards.   Then to the paperclip thing on the 24 pin ...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tips, J!

here is an overview of my pc and fan-setup:
1) top + rear fans:
https://ibb.co/gKM90L
2) top of the case:
https://ibb.co/b4XGfL
3) underside of the case:
https://ibb.co/fNLrEf
4) bottom + front fans:
https://ibb.co/mDdNLL

I will go ahead and update my specs with my current PSU as well (corsair vs550). I need a better one with more SATA-connections... any ideas or should i make a new thread about it? im also not sure if it's the regular vs550 or v2/v3 that i got: https://ibb.co/ihdmFV

The problem with the clicking sound is that it doesn't happen ALL the time... it can go HOURS before the clicking sound occurs. but now i have put the pc on top my desk, so i will try to use a tube to listen where it actually comes from...


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## qubit (Nov 20, 2018)

I think there's a certain irony in seeing quality Noctua case fans, but only the cheap and nasty Intel cooler and fan on the CPU. Definitely worth investing in something better.

I've not read the whole thread, but if you've not found the source of the clicking sound, it could well be that Intel fan making the noise. Remember that many hard drives will also make an audible clicking noise from head seeks, but of course the sound will be irregular.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 20, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Thanks for the tips, J!
> 
> here is an overview of my pc and fan-setup:
> 1) top + rear fans:
> ...



That fan setup is horribly wrong. Pick one airflow direction and place in- and outtakes in that one direction. Not four at the same time... The bottom and top fans should just go, add them to the front if possible, or remove them altogether and keep as replacements when another breaks.

What you've got now is mostly turbulence inside and the guarantee that you are sucking in the maximum amount of dust because you don't have positive pressure in the case. And dust is going to increase temps more readily than bad airflow. Someone said 'flip the bottom fan' earlier, but honestly, its a pointless fan to begin with. Even when used as intake, it will disrupt the airflow from the front fans, and if the airflow direction is bottom > top, half your system won't benefit from it.

Here's some evidence that you can cool a high end rig with just a few fans (my rig)

3x120mm in at very low RPM, and 1x140 outtake at the back. Done. 2x120 is already sufficient for front. Due to the positive pressure in the case, it is also not susceptible to drawing in dust, not even through the opened backside. All the other ports have filters - another cheap fix for that mess of yours (you can buy filter material and cut to size for a few bucks)...

This rig's been spinning for almost a year now, still looks nearly pristine on the inside.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 20, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> That fan setup is horribly wrong. Pick one airflow direction and place in- and outtakes in that one direction. Not four at the same time... The bottom and top fans should just go, add them to the front if possible, or remove them altogether and keep as replacements when another breaks.
> 
> What you've got now is mostly turbulence inside and the guarantee that you are sucking in the maximum amount of dust because you don't have positive pressure in the case. And dust is going to increase temps more readily than bad airflow. Someone said 'flip the bottom fan' earlier, but honestly, its a pointless fan to begin with. Even when used as intake, it will disrupt the airflow from the front fans, and if the airflow direction is bottom > top, half your system won't benefit from it.
> 
> ...



Wohaaa. that's an elaborate post. thanks for that. i've never understood the bottom fan either, tbh, seeing that would create an "X-flow" of air. i will remove the top and bottom one, place the 140mm on the back (which is currently on the top, i believe) and... which is better? 2x120 in the front and 1x140 in the back or opposite? 1 fan as a reserve sounds like a plan, indeed. the front and back fans, are they at least facing correct direction, or?

Im also planning to order a new cpu-fan. that way i can have the current stock cooler as backup. some suggested Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo... any good?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

2x 120 front 1x 140 back is best, because you have an HDD cage in front which will partially block the bottom front fan's airflow.

The holes in your case will do the rest when it comes to letting the hot air out. The outtake fan is just there to 'direct' the airflow better, really.

Going off your pictures earlier yes, front and back fans are in the correct direction. The sticker with the fan's data and serial number on it, is always on the exhaust side.

CM Hyper 212 is good bang/buck. You can also have a look at Gelid and Scythe in the same price range; they'll probably be slightly better (more silent / better cooling at lower noise).

One of the most cost effective Gelid offerings:
https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/1211259/gelid-solutions-tranquillo-rev4-version-b.html

Scythe has just released an updated Katana
https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/1264887/scythe-katana-5.html

beQuiet puts emphasis on best in class fans
https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/422022/be-quiet!-pure-rock.html

Or pay 5-6 bucks more and get this, so you can re use it if you upgrade to a more hungry CPU.
https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/887315/gelid-solutions-phantom-black.html

Each one would be better than the 212 for its own reasons.


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## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Nov 21, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> There will always be  a "It never happened to me so it's not real" school of thought.  Also the "cheap" adjective eliminates a lot of fans.  The cheap ones don't have the extra control ICs that eliminate the PWM sound
> 
> PWM click and humming has been well known "feature" of PWM
> 
> ...




You seem to know a lot about fan setups. Say i have a mechify C with super positive air pressure setup 3 front intakes - 3 top intakes - and one exhaust on the rear. Do you think that is fine for positive air pressure and good temps ? 

Any downsides about this ?


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> 2x 120 front 1x 140 back is best, because you have an HDD cage in front which will partially block the bottom front fan's airflow.
> 
> The holes in your case will do the rest when it comes to letting the hot air out. The outtake fan is just there to 'direct' the airflow better, really.
> 
> ...



Crud. There is no room for a 140mm in the back.... what then? :/ just leave the current 120mm in the back and put 2x120 in the front? What about the 140mm fan? Just leave it where it is (on the top) or remove it and save it until i get a new case? Also, if you look at the attached image, will a 120mm fan do any good there at all, or

Also, i like the idea of re-using a cpu cooler, cuz i might wanna upgrade my system later on. However, 1) Gelid Solutions arent available here in the north aka scandinavia. So i'd hve to order it from ebay or so. Same with Katana 5 (tho i did find Katana 4, but that is no good hmm?) Besides, dont those coolers have a 120mm fan? I cannot see such a big fan be able to fit with my current motherboard.. or will it? The beQuiet i did find tho... but that one will not do much good when i upgrade my cpu or? And yes, im very keen on finding a QUIET setup, for sure.

Also, regarding that case of yours.. it looks very spacious and not so cramped.. what sort of Fractal Design is it? And s it a "quiet" case?

Thanks again, and pardon for these zillion Q's of mine...

The front:


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## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Crud. There is no room for a 140mm in the back.... what then? :/ just leave the current 120mm in the back and put 2x120 in the front? What about the 140mm fan? Just leave it where it is (on the top) or remove it and save it until i get a new case?
> 
> Also, i like the idea of re-using a cpu cooler, cuz i might wanna upgrade my system later on. However, 1) Gelid Solutions arent available here in the north aka scandinavia. So i'd hve to order it from ebay or so. Same with Katana 5. Besides, dont those coolers have like 120mm fan? I cannot see such a cooler be able to fit with my motherboard.. or will it? The beQuiet i did find tho... but that one will not do much good if i upgrade my cpu or?
> 
> ...



It is the Define C, and yes it is a quiet case. The Mechify C is basically this case but with open design for airflow front and top


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Crud. There is no room for a 140mm in the back.... what then? :/ just leave the current 120mm in the back and put 2x120 in the front? What about the 140mm fan? Just leave it where it is (on the top) or remove it and save it until i get a new case?
> 
> Also, i like the idea of re-using a cpu cooler, cuz i might wanna upgrade my system later on. However, 1) Gelid Solutions arent available here in the north aka scandinavia. So i'd hve to order it from ebay or so. Same with Katana 5 (tho i did find Katana 4, but that is no good hmm?) Besides, dont those coolers have a 120mm fan? I cannot see such a big fan be able to fit with my current motherboard.. or will it? The beQuiet i did find tho... but that one will not do much good if i upgrade my cpu or?
> 
> ...



-Case is Fractal Design Define C (TG). Its just a Define R-case, but with the HDD tray area cut off the front. Its basically the most compact full ATX case you can get. I love it. Its not as well sound proofed as the regular Define is. I have an R4 as well and its noticeably more quiet. Blame the tempered glass... the insulation material is missing from that side so its kinda obvious  But with the right components, even regular cases can be pretty quiet these days. The most noticeable noise is GPU at full speed, followed by mechanical HDD humming. For the latter the most important quality in a case is its weight and the thickness + rigidness (is that a word) of the materials. Noise from resonance is incredibly annoying.

-Katana 4 is just fine. The differences are not going to be noticeable versus a 5. If you want to spend a bit more, there is the Scythe Mugen as well, which is hands down the best midrange heatsink there is. Great balance for all but the heaviest mainstream CPUs.

-As for cooler height, you can find your case max cooler height in its specs and compare, or you can measure it yourself from the base of the CPU die to the side panel of your case. But most cases will easily fit 130mm height coolers, and many will do 140-150mm too.

-If 140 doesn't fit, use 120. Its a minimal difference. 140 is nice because it can move the same air at lower RPM (I'm a sucker for silence...)

-As for the capacity of coolers, if you want to use the same heatsink, look at dual stack heatsinks. There are many like the Phantom Black I linked, that one is just the cheapest around. Noctua of course has the good ol' NH-D15(s), and in the same range you also have the beQuiet Dark Rock Pro (the one I've got in there). But they cost 2x as much, mostly for quality finish and minor details. And the extra surface and fan in there only really pays off when you push CPUs past 100W, so thats a recent Intel under a nice OC. (These coolers are rated for 200-220W TDPs, but you can take that with a bag of salt / lots of headroom in mind)



Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> It is the Define C, and yes it is a quiet case. The Mechify C is basically this case but with open design for airflow front and top



No, the Meshify has many little sacrifices compared to the Define line. Its in a whole other price range too.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> -Case is Fractal Design Define C (TG). Its just a Define R-case, but with the HDD tray area cut off the front. Its basically the most compact full ATX case you can get. I love it. Its not as well sound proofed as the regular Define is. I have an R4 as well and its noticeably more quiet. Blame the tempered glass... the insulation material is missing from that side so its kinda obvious  But with the right components, even regular cases can be pretty quiet these days. The most noticeable noise is GPU at full speed, followed by mechanical HDD humming. For the latter the most important quality in a case is its weight and the thickness + rigidness (is that a word) of the materials. Noise from resonance is incredibly annoying.
> 
> -Katana 4 is just fine. The differences are not going to be noticeable versus a 5. If you want to spend a bit more, there is the Scythe Mugen as well, which is hands down the best midrange heatsink there is. Great balance for all but the heaviest mainstream CPUs.
> 
> ...



Great post! Ok. Will put 2x120 front and 1x120 back. Remove the others.

Dual stack heatsinks are mostly around the budget of those 2 you listed, huh? Or are there otyer alternatives that are also quiet, but maybe a little cheaper? Im not that big OC kind of a person, so i will not be fiddling too much with cpu in that regard.. heh.

Actually, Katana 4 seems to be a very afforsable heatsink, thesame with Mugen... but which Mugen is the preferred and more quiet one? Mugen 5 Rev B? PCGH edition? Mugen Max? They are all at same price, more or less.

I think imma go for that Fractal Design C... but.. the regular is without glass while the TG is with glass.. is TG more silent or? I assume the regular one with no glass, hmm? Yes, im a sucker for silence too, for sure!


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Great post! Ok. Will put 2x120 front and 1x120 back. Remove the others.
> 
> Dual stack heatsinks are mostly around the budget of those 2 you listed, huh? Or are there otyer alternatives that are also quiet, but maybe a little cheaper?
> 
> ...



TG = more noise because it has no sound dampening material on the glass panel. But you get to look at how much dust is in there without opening it 

Mugen 5 PCGH I believe is the higher performance version of it. Check some reviews, its one Google away


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> TG = more noise because it has no sound dampening material on the glass panel. But you get to look at how much dust is in there without opening it
> 
> Mugen 5 PCGH I believe is the higher performance version of it. Check some reviews, its one Google away



So. Regular C would be my choice then. Only €5 more expensive than TG.. hehe. And my current mothrboard etc will fit nicely in that case yes?

It seems like Mugen 5 pcgh is the more quiet one yes. How will that work when i will upgrade my cpu?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> So. Regular C would be my choice then. Only €5 more expensive than TG.. hehe. And my current mothrboard etc will fit nicely in that case yes?
> 
> It seems like Mugen 5 pcgh is the more quiet one yes. How will that work when i will upgrade my cpu?



Check the specs and try to figure it out so you won't have to ask on a case-by-case basis. Your motherboard has ATX form factor? So it will fit in any ATX case.

Mugen 5 isn't a dual stack, so if you intend to get a Ryzen 7, or Intel i7 6-8 core CPU at some point, which pull well over 120W when overclocked, it won't be enough. For Ryzen 5 and other Intel CPUs lower than that, it will do fine. How it works, you compare the rated TDP of these CPUs (and add headroom for overclocking if you'd want to) and compare that to the rated TDP of the cooler. 

*check my sig, I'm teaching you how to fish


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

Haven't read the whole thread, but I'd show some steel cutters to that thick honeycomb grill on the rear fan place.. Hell, I've cut those even from Define cases even they're lot less restrictive of airflow.



Vayra86 said:


> *check my sig, I'm teaching you how to fish


Teach a man how to lit fire, you'll warm him for one day. Set the man on fire, you'll warm him up for the rest of his lifetime.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> Teach a man how to lit fire, you'll warm him for one day. Set the man on fire, you'll warm him up for the rest of his lifetime.



Pure gold


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Bwahaha. Great one, Chloe.

Ohh crud. Another problem.. how da frack am i gonna install another fan in the front? No holes available.. or.. there are holes, but not long enough screws to attach the fan with...


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

If the threads match, you could attach a fan from the bottom holes with short screws? I've done that with AIO radiators.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> If the threads match, you could attach a fan from the bottom holes with short screws? I've done that with AIO radiators.



Argh what a USELESS crap of a case i have. It is heavy, it is troublesome to open the doors on it, it is not spacious at all, little room for any fans and just a big mess. I hate itttt! *placing an order on fractal design C NOW*

I cannot mount a 2nd fan in the front cuz there are no threads that fits into those small holes. So i guess i am stuck with 2 fans.. 1x120mm in front and 1x120mm in the back...


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Argh what a USELESS crap of a case i have. It is heavy, it is troublesome to open the doors on it, it is not spacious at all, little room for any fans and just a big mess. I hate itttt! *placing an order on fractal design C NOW*
> 
> I cannot mount a 2nd fan in the front cuz there are no threads that fits into those small holes. So i guess i am stuck with 2 fans.. 1x120mm in front and 1x120mm in the back...


Well, you aren't going wrong with your new case.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> Well, you aren't going wrong with your new case.



Indeed so. I guess there arent really any better alternatives out there for the price of define C, yes? And i can only mount 2xSATA 3.5 drives in define c, or?


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Indeed so. I guess there arent really any better alternatives out there for the price of define C, yes? And i can only mount 2xSATA 3.5 drives in define c, or?


Yup, 2x HDD. Great choice, especially when thinking about for its price.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> Yup, 2x HDD. Great choice, especially when thinking about for its price.



Ah okay. Yes it does seem to be a good choice indeed. Just that extra hdd space would have been nice. I found another nicely reviewed case: Zalman Z11 Plus (2013 model). It has the exact same price as Define C... but Z11 hosts more hdd space... any thoughts on that, or? Trying to google its silence level, but that wasnt so easy...


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Ah okay. Yes it does seem to be a good choice indeed. Just that extra hdd space would have been nice. I found another nicely reviewed case: Zalman Z11 Plus (2013 model). It has the exact same price as Define C... but Z11 hosts more hdd space... any thoughts on that, or? Trying to google its silence level, but that wasnt so easy...


That Zalman is uglier than my third girlfriend..

And I'm 99% sure that the Define is much more well built in quality. Get an external enclosure if you need more HDDs?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Ah okay. Yes it does seem to be a good choice indeed. Just that extra hdd space would have been nice. I found another nicely reviewed case: Zalman Z11 Plus (2013 model). It has the exact same price as Define C... but Z11 hosts more hdd space... any thoughts on that, or? Trying to google its silence level, but that wasnt so easy...



Always buy a recent model case because you will want to have things like USB 3.0 at some point. The Define C is already not as 'up to date' as you might want, its worth checking for stuff like front panel USB-C for example, if that is something you use or intend to use.

Of course, there is always a back port as well.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> That Zalman is uglier than my third girlfriend..
> 
> And I'm 99% sure that the Define is much more well built in quality. Get an external enclosure if you need more HDDs?



Indeed. It is fugly for sure. Maybe so yes. Looking at the possibilities.



Vayra86 said:


> Always buy a recent model case because you will want to have things like USB 3.0 at some point. The Define C is already not as 'up to date' as you might want, its worth checking for stuff like front panel USB-C for example, if that is something you use or intend to use.
> 
> Of course, there is always a back port as well.



I'vet yet to use usb-c, actually... cannot say if that is something i need, really. 3.0 is nifty and useful tho, so that'd surely be nice.

Ok. After some googling and reading, i see that Define-series is by far the most smoothest one AND the most budget-friendly too.

So. I take it that Design R6 would be the one to actually go for.. Define C costs €15 less, so i can definitely add the extra €15 if it is worth it? And it is also future-friendly too. Minus the usb-c in the front i guess. Cuz it seems that if i want one with usb-c, i must push the budget well over €100...

So. Define C, R6, S1 or any other alternatives?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Indeed. It is fugly for sure. Maybe so yes. Looking at the possibilities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you dont mind the size of it, the R6 is one of the worlds best cases IMO. You can build anything in it and it will last


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> If you dont mind the size of it, the R6 is one of the worlds best cases IMO. You can build anything in it and it will last



Gotcha. Interestingly enough, i see people writing that the noise level on the R6 is worse than on the R4... and there seems to be a complaint about the quality of the threads for the motherboard(?) but yeah, R6 seems to be a clear choice for me at this moment, for sure! the thing is that i will be putting the case inside a cabinet that i've got here (due to space issues), and 233mm width is about 30mm smaller than the cabinet, so it'll fit nicely inside there. and those extra hdd spaces is also a good one,. as for height, the R6 is only 30mm taller than my current case, so it's all good.

regarding the PSU... which psu should i go for? the one i have now, doesn't have enough SATA-connections to cover 4xSATA drives... im currently using Corsair VS550 (regular). any recommendations to a new psu since it's making this annoying clicking noise?


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## Vayra86 (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Gotcha. Interestingly enough, i see people writing that the noise level on the R6 is worse than on the R4... and there seems to be a complaint about the quality of the threads for the motherboard(?) but yeah, R6 seems to be a clear choice for me at this moment, for sure! the thing is that i will be putting the case inside a cabinet that i've got here (due to space issues), and 233mm width is about 30mm smaller than the cabinet, so it'll fit nicely inside there. and those extra hdd spaces is also a good one,. as for height, the R6 is only 30mm taller than my current case, so it's all good.
> 
> regarding the PSU... which psu should i go for? the one i have now, doesn't have enough SATA-connections to cover 4xSATA drives... im currently using Corsair VS550 (regular). any recommendations to a new psu since it's making this annoying clicking noise?



Its possible, I haven't got an R6 myself, the R4 is still in one piece 

Even so, it still strikes the optimal balance between decent airflow and silence. Many silent cases are pretty warm ones, the Define has tons of options to stay cool. The HDD cages are part- or fully removable as well.

PSU wise, and if price is no object, EVGA (G) Supernovas lead the pack for me. Has eco feature which means if you have a healthy bit of wattage headroom, you never hear the fan because its not on. And the platform is fantastic, plus 10 year warranty.

Alternatives would be anything Seasonic, its a safe bet, which isnt the case with most other brands (others have OEMs that differ across the product stack so you never know until you do actual research). That said I haven't been into PSUs for a few years, new models may offer new possibilities.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Its possible, I haven't got an R6 myself, the R4 is still in one piece
> 
> Even so, it still strikes the optimal balance between decent airflow and silence. Many silent cases are pretty warm ones, the Define has tons of options to stay cool. The HDD cages are part- or fully removable as well.
> 
> ...



Right. Well, im sure that R6 will clear the issues that i have with my current case... which i dont even know the name of... but yeah, it's just crappp. and i do like the fact that the cooling system is so good on the R6. 

I think it'll be safer for me to either start a new thread about a new PSU or something. the EVGA's seem to be a good AND affordable choice, yes. about €100 is my max budget for that tho. though the supernova seems to be a bit off for my budget. the cheapest supernova = 550W..


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

Are you interested in water cooling (if not now, maybe in future)? S series are optimized for water cooling, I'd get a S2 if I'd be changing my case since I have a CPU/GPU full custom watercooling loop.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> Are you interested in water cooling (if not now, maybe in future)? S series are optimized for water cooling, I'd get a S2 if I'd be changing my case since I have a CPU/GPU full custom watercooling loop.



S2 is waaay out of my budget, unfortunately.  R6 is about 50% of S2's price.


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> S2 is waaay out of my budget, unfortunately.  R6 is about 50% of S2's price.


My bad, didn't even realize that it's so expensive 

Thought that it goes about in same price with R6.. Over 150eur here in Finland, no thanks.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 21, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> My bad, didn't even realize that it's so expensive
> 
> Thought that it goes about in same price with R6.. Over 150eur here in Finland, no thanks.



Yeah, exactly. hehe. same price here in norway as well...too steep that. R6 will do just fine for me. 

Now, off to find a proper PSU...



Vayra86 said:


> Its possible, I haven't got an R6 myself, the R4 is still in one piece
> 
> Even so, it still strikes the optimal balance between decent airflow and silence. Many silent cases are pretty warm ones, the Define has tons of options to stay cool. The HDD cages are part- or fully removable as well.
> 
> ...



Just a curiosity... out of Dark Rock Pro 4, NH-D14 and NH-D15, which of them would be more advisable to go for, especially when im going to eventually upgrade my pc so i don't need to buy another cooler? i listed NH-D14 there because it's 50% of the price of NH-D15 and DRP4...


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## Kissamies (Nov 21, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Yeah, exactly. hehe. same price here in norway as well...too steep that. R6 will do just fine for me.
> 
> Now, off to find a proper PSU...


Seasonic Focus or Prime series, you can't go wrong.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 22, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> Seasonic Focus or Prime series, you can't go wrong.



Prime's way above my budget (around €100), but a Focus Plus Gold 550W is just at the €100... the EVGA G2 550W is actually priced the same.... Which one would you recommend of those 2? Also, will 550W be enough for me? when do i need 650W? I'm asking because there is a Focus Plus Gold 650W for just €4 more...


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## Kissamies (Nov 22, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Prime's way above my budget (around €100), but a Focus Plus Gold 550W is just at the €100... the EVGA G2 550W is actually priced the same.... Which one would you recommend of those 2? Also, will 550W be enough for me? when do i need 650W? I'm asking because there is a Focus Plus Gold 650W for just €4 more...


I'd say that you won't go wrong with any of those.

Since you have MSI 970 this won't be an issue: https://www.techpowerup.com/249838/seasonic-focus-plus-psus-encounter-gpu-compatibility-issues


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## winterwonderland (Nov 22, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> I'd say that you won't go wrong with any of those.
> 
> Since you have MSI 970 this won't be an issue: https://www.techpowerup.com/249838/seasonic-focus-plus-psus-encounter-gpu-compatibility-issues



I might as well choose the 650W then, since it's only €4 more expensive than the 2 other 550W's... and choose my next GPU carefully, though im gonna stick to my current MSi 970 for a little longer... what you reckon?


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## Kissamies (Nov 22, 2018)

minstreless said:


> I might as well choose the 650W then, since it's only €4 more expensive than the 2 other 550W's... and choose my next GPU carefully, though im gonna stick to my current MSi 970 for a little longer... what you reckon?


GPU or PSU? I can't say about PSU since the EVGA G2/G3 series and Seasonic Focuses are both high-quality good PSUs.


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## winterwonderland (Nov 22, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> GPU or PSU? I can't say about PSU since the EVGA G2/G3 series and Seasonic Focuses are both high-quality good PSUs.



Ah, well i was only referring to the link you posted.. whenever i will get a new GPU, i will choose one with care if i'll go for the 650W.


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## Kissamies (Nov 23, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Ah, well i was only referring to the link you posted.. whenever i will get a new GPU, i will choose one with care if i'll go for the 650W.


650W would run a 3-way SLI with 970s, at least you have some headroom.


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## John Naylor (Nov 23, 2018)

minstreless said:


> Thanks for the tips, J!
> 
> here is an overview of my pc and fan-setup:



The pics frankly are a PITA... It would appear ...

Rear = Exhaust
Top = Exhaust
Bottom = Exhaust
Front = I can't tell... Intake ?

1) can you just list what you have in the format above, 2) if they are all the same fan, 3) which ones have air filters  and 4)  any more unused fan mounts left ?.  Typically intake fan locations are filtered.  Also isnt that a mATX MoBo ?

If you can manage 1.33 to 1.50 intake fans, then the way to go is

Rear = Exhaust
Top = Exhaust
Bottom = Intake
Front = Intake

So this works

Rear = 1 x Exhaust
Top = 2 x Exhaust
Bottom = 1x  Intake
Front = 3 x Intake

If you don't have that many mounts in front that won't work.   What's wrong with this picture ?

1 x exhaust top and 1x  rear / 2 x intake front and bottom ?  Each fan produces X cfm.  The intake fans will typically have air filters on the case which will restrict air flow by as much as a third when dirty, so

2 intakes x 2/3 = 1.33 X air in
2 exhausts = 2.00 X air out

So it's understood that the fanc create negative pressure inside the case, and ince the case hasn't imploded, make up air is getting in somewhere.... the most likely place is the rear case grilles and the vented slot covers and what kind aie is back there ?  All the hot exhaust from your 200 watt GPU and 550 watt PSU ... not good idea sucking hot air into the case, idea iss to get it out and keep it out.

2 x exhaust top and 1 xrear / 2 x intake front and bottom ?

2 intakes x 2/3 = 1.33 X air in
3 exhausts = 3.00 X air out

Now it's a lot worse.

So, if ya can let go of what we all learned in 8th grade earth science "hot air rises", as anyone who has ever sat under a ceiling fan knows.... not when a fan is blowing in the other direction.    The air inside your case is chnaging between 1 and 2 times per second... all of it.  But it's really know if the case is under negative pressure and the hot exhaust is being sucked back in.  So if you find yaself in a situation where poor case design does not allow for more air in than out, you won't be able to maintain positive pressure.  You can easily test this for yaself... I use a $35 garage band fog machine from Amazon to test and when negative pressure exists when you blow the fog behind the case, it fills up with fog so we know air behind the case is getting sucked in.  I am going to assume that you have a spare fan mount in front and top.

Two fans in front + one at bottom = 3 intakes x 2/3 = 2.00 X air in
Two fans on top + one at rear = 3 exhausts = 3.00 X air out ... No Good.

Corrective option... don't like not having a rear fan but given the stock cooler and not a big heat sink...

Two fans in front + one at bottom = 3 intakes x 2/3 = 2.00 X air in
Two fans on top + none at rear = 2 exhausts = 2.00 X air out ... Good enough *as long as you keep filters clean*..

or...

Two fans in front + one at bottom = 3 intakes x 2/3 = 2.00 X air in
One fan at rear = 12 exhausts = 1.00 X air out ... extra air will be forced out rear and top grilles.

If course if you could manage 3 exhausts and 4 intakes, (via case mod on side panel if required), that would allow the rear fan to go back where it belongs.  Another option would be to have both top fans blowing in (remeber ceiling fan from above.  You don't need to have the same number of close to thr same number of fans,  After all those who water cool always have rad fans blowing in "for best performance".   See page 3, Window 1 of instructions for Corsair Top of case mounted AIOs.:

https://www.corsair.com/corsairmedia/sys_master/productcontent/49-000175_rev_AB_H100i_QSG_web.pdf

"For the best performance, we recommend mounting the fans as an air-intake into your case".



minstreless said:


> Great post! Ok. Will put 2x120 front and 1x120 back. Remove the others.
> 
> Actually, Katana 4 seems to be a very afforsable heatsink, thesame with Mugen... but which Mugen is the preferred and more quiet one? Mugen 5 Rev B? PCGH edition? Mugen Max? They are all at same price, more or less.
> 
> I think imma go for that Fractal Design C... but.. the regular is without glass while the TG is with glass.. is TG more silent or? I assume the regular one with no glass, hmm? Yes, im a sucker for silence too, for sure!



1. Leaving the 1 x 120mm on the bottom will help

2.  The Mugen Max Rev B ($37)  and Fuma ($46) are the best performance, matching / beating the performance of Noctua and Cryorig $90 flagships... will they fit ?  However with that small mATX MoBo.... fit is often an issue issue.

3.  The Fractal Design C has (120s only since that's what you have)

Front: 3 x 120mm (1 x  pre-installed)
Top: 2 x 120
Bottom: 1 x 120mm fan
Rear: 1 x 120mm fan (1 x  pre-installed) 

That has the potential for 4 in and 3 out which works as long as you clean filters often and don't let them build up with dust which will reduce air flow

But again, that's an ATX ... much larger case ... for your mATX build.  Since your build is currently mATX based, if moving to a new case, I'd suggest th mATX Evolv (Black, Gray and Silver options in Tempered Glass:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811854057


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