# UPS on lithium batteries



## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 6, 2020)

Anyone here running their UPS on lithium batteries?


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## jsfitz54 (Sep 6, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> Anyone here running their UPS on lithium batteries?



How is the UPS going to charge a battery it was not designed to charge?

Stick with the same type the manufacturer supplied as a replacement.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 6, 2020)

That is why I asked









						Dakota Lithium 12v 10Ah Battery - Dakota Lithium Batteries
					

Half the weight and twice the power of traditional lead batteries, this workhorse gives you the perfect amount of juice for full-day adventures. The #1 battery for fishing & outdoor recreation.



					dakotalithium.com
				



"THE PERFECT SLA REPLACEMENT BATTERY "


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## R-T-B (Sep 6, 2020)

From your link:

*Charger Sold Separately* 
This battery should be charged using a LiFePO4 compatible charger. A SLA charger may work, but will reduce performance and lifespan of the battery.

Yeah, not going to hassle with that.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 6, 2020)

jsfitz54 said:


> How is the UPS going to charge a battery it was not designed to charge?


Huh? Many lithium batteries are designed to be recharged. Virtually every notebook, cell phone, electric car ever made uses rechargeable lithium batteries. 


jsfitz54 said:


> Stick with the same type the manufacturer supplied as a replacement.


Totally disagree - unless you want to spend way more than you have to. Peel the label off your APC or Cyberpower cells and you surely will find the same battery you can get from Amazon or BatteryMart. I've been using UPS for over 30 years and never ever bought from the UPS maker and never had any problems.


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## JustAnEngineer (Sep 6, 2020)

The problem is that a charger that is designed and programed to handle sealed lead acid batteries is very likely going to have problems with a LiFePO4 battery - either it will damage the battery or the logic in the UPS won't allow it to charge at all.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 6, 2020)

I must admit that when I replace a SLA with a super-capacitor bank I was concerned that any trickle current might cause over-voltage








						Replacing a UPS Battery With Super-Capacitors
					

Replacing a UPS Battery With Super-Capacitors: Got tired of replacing the lead-acid battery in a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply), so put together a super-capacitor array to go in its place. Such units are now commercially available https://www.marathon-power.com/supercapacitor-ups....




					www.instructables.com
				




I checked for this in my UPS and all was fine; if it wasn't I would have added some Zener diodes.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 6, 2020)

JustAnEngineer said:


> The problem is that a charger that is designed and programed to handle sealed lead acid batteries is very likely going to have problems with a LiFePO4 battery - either it will damage the battery or the logic in the UPS won't allow it to charge at all.


If the voltage is correct, no problems. A trickle charger is a perfect example. They put out tiny amounts of current yet can be used to charge monster car batteries that would normally draw 10s of amps. But no harm is done to the charger. 

The chargers in UPS are designed to shut down if too much current is demanded - as often happens when a battery shorts out, which is not uncommon. 

12VDC is 12VDC.



Anwar.Shiekh said:


> I was concerned that any trickle current might cause over-voltage


Nah! And remember, chargers are designed to shut off when the batteries are charged. Even if they still provide a trickle voltages, batteries are designed to handle them.


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## JustAnEngineer (Sep 6, 2020)

A member in another forum that I frequent tried LiFePO4 batteries in his UPS and they weren't recognized or didn't charge.  Replacing with a larger (externally connected) lead acid battery worked, though.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 6, 2020)

Thanks, this is the info I sought.


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## 1freedude (Sep 6, 2020)

Some true drop in replacement lithium batteries have a charge controller built in to the case.  Those will accept a charge from almost any source, within a certain voltage range.  I deal with batteries like those and like OP linked.  I have even made my own from scratch, using a control board that prevents over current charge/discharge, under voltage/over voltage, and, if I put a temp sensor in, over temp control.  All I need to do to charge it is put more current and voltage than it is currently (no pun intended) using (discharging). Battery charging is another hobby of mine.

With a good SLA replacement, half of the cost is the engineering behind the BMS


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## kiriakost (Sep 6, 2020)

I got disappointed by running lithium at my motorcycle. 





						Lithium motorcycle battery Review / Battery FAIL & take apart at 2015
					

Lithium motorcycle battery Review / Battery FAIL & take apart at 2015



					www.ittsb.eu


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## newtekie1 (Sep 7, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I got disappointed by running lithium at my motorcycle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LiFePO4 batteries are very different from the battery you had 5 years ago.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 7, 2020)

They are still probably not going to be very happy with the currents demanded to start an engine.


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## 1freedude (Sep 7, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> They are still probably not going to be very happy with the currents demanded to start an engine.



This is too good, found it on amazon  hxxps://www.amazon.com/ask/questions/Tx1UYD966ZVBGA0/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza


			
				Daly BMS said:
			
		

> The current generated by a large load is large.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 7, 2020)

1freedude said:


> This is too good, found it on amazon  hxxps://www.amazon.com/ask/questions/Tx1UYD966ZVBGA0/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So now loads "generate" current?    Yeah right.

***

Now - my apologies! 

After re-reading, and this time taking the time to fully understand jsfitz54's post #2 above, I change my response. In my haste (I was rushing to get out the door - an explanation, not an excuse), I completely ignored the word, "type" when he said, _stick with the same *type* the manufacturer supplied as a replacement_. 

FTR, I would not replace a SLA battery with a Li Ion (or LiFePO4) battery, or vice versa, unless the charger was specifically designed to support both types - and I don't know of any UPS with a charging system designed for that. There certainly are other applications where it does not matter but I have not seen a UPS designed for SOHO use that does. My bad  and apologies to jsfitz54 and others reading.

I will, however, stick to my comment about never ever buying replacement batteries from the UPS maker. I buy my UPS batteries from Apex, BatteryWholesale, Battery Mart, Batteryplex, RefurbUPS, Walmart or Amazon - depending on who has the best price on that day. And note today one distributor will price high with free shipping and the next day price low with shipping. So be sure to factor in shipping, which can be significant, but sometimes free.

Also, when the whole UPS battery consists of more than one battery (cell), there often is some sort of bracket or other framework used by the UPS manufacturer that holds, aligns and spaces the cells properly to ensure correct polarities (and avoid shorts). The entire assembled battery is then inserted into the UPS battery compartment as one unit. An example is this 4-cell frame or this 2-cell frame. These are standard SLA batteries strapped together. There typically are small jumper cables (straps) too, cut to length and used to strap the terminals together correctly to ensure the proper series, parallel or series/parallel connections are made to provide the correct voltage output for the whole battery. I recommend drawing a diagram or taking photos of the old configuration, and saving the frame/spacer and straps so you have a guide and parts to use to properly reassemble your replacement cells when they arrive. 

For those confused about "cell" and "battery", many larger UPS use 2 or more batteries to make one big battery. In this scenario, each individual battery is used as a "cell" in the larger battery. Think of a flashlight/torch that uses 4 AA batteries. Each individual AA battery is a battery on its own. But when used together in the flashlight, they become cells in a 4-cell battery. Clear as mud, huh?

Last - do NOT toss your old batteries into the trash. One thing really nice about SLA batteries is about 90% of the materials, including the hazardous lead content, can be recycled. Check you local listings for recycling centers. For those in the US, Best Buy will take them, as well as your old Li Ion batteries (including old CR2032 CMOS batteries). Many auto-parts stores will take them too.


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## newtekie1 (Sep 7, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> They are still probably not going to be very happy with the currents demanded to start an engine.



They handle the current demand just fine.  Even regular modern Lithium-Ion batteries can handle some pretty high current demand. Hell, most solar systems in RVs theses days are using Li-Ion batteries, and they run air conditioners off of them.  The thing is you have to spread the load out across multiple cells and keep the heat in check.  A good battery controller will protect that batteries.

I mean, I have a Lithium-Ion jump start pack in every of my cars.  They work great, even when I've had to use them with my V8 truck that had a dead battery.  But the controller doesn't allow the battery to get too hot. You can only crank for 3 seconds before the controller cuts off the current.  Then you have to wait 30 seconds between tries, and if the battery gets too hot it won't let you try anymore at all until it cools down.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 7, 2020)

I take my old lead acid batteries to the junk yard; they pay by the pound.


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## kiriakost (Sep 8, 2020)

newtekie1 said:


> LiFePO4 batteries are very different from the battery you had 5 years ago.


You might be surprised  but I have very wide awareness.






						Ebike battery 36V 10 Ah  HW-RH05 with HW-YJ-12 BMS & 38120LE (Tear down)
					

Ebike battery 36V 10 Ah  HW-RH05 with HW-YJ-12 BMS & 38120LE (Tear down)



					www.ittsb.eu


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 8, 2020)

While I very much appreciate opinions, what I was really after was experiences.


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## laszlo (Sep 9, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> While I very much appreciate opinions, what I was really after was experiences.




do not try to put that lithium battery in your UPS!

it will blow-up and catch fire because the charge/discharge is not managed by a battery management system (BMS) designed for it , even if the UPS has an internal management system is made for lead battery

lithium battery has a nasty behavior as it will accept more&more power until it reach a critical state ; the UPS internal charger deliver ~15V for charging the 12 V lead battery; now this voltage applied directly to the lithium will charge it over the safety limits....

there are BMS on market which can be attached to the lithium batteries so they can be used safely; however the quality ones for big amperage are v. expensive; the chinese 10$-30$ ones sold on ebay are a joke as are not capable of handling the rated amperage...


for example this is a BMS which can handle that battery:






						Smart BMS CL 12/100 - Victron Energy
					

The Smart BMS CL 12/100 is a Battery Management system for Victron lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) Smart Batteries. It has been specifically designed for...




					www.victronenergy.com
				




and price.....:









						Victron Energy Smart BMS CL 12/100 - BMS110022000
					

Victron Energy Smart BMS CL 12/100 - BMS110022000 product brought to you by BMS Technologies LTD Offering free next working day delivery.



					www.batterymegastore.co.uk
				





the best option is to use a car 12v car battery as it will last....


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## milewski1015 (Sep 9, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> I will, however, stick to my comment about never ever buying replacement batteries from the UPS maker. I buy my UPS batteries from Apex, BatteryWholesale, Battery Mart, Batteryplex, RefurbUPS, Walmart or Amazon - depending on who has the best price on that day. And note today one distributor will price high with free shipping and the next day price low with shipping. So be sure to factor in shipping, which can be significant, but sometimes free.
> 
> Also, when the whole UPS battery consists of more than one battery (cell), there often is some sort of bracket or other framework used by the UPS manufacturer that holds, aligns and spaces the cells properly to ensure correct polarities (and avoid shorts). The entire assembled battery is then inserted into the UPS battery compartment as one unit. An example is this 4-cell frame or this 2-cell frame. These are standard SLA batteries strapped together. There typically are small jumper cables (straps) too, cut to length and used to strap the terminals together correctly to ensure the proper series, parallel or series/parallel connections are made to provide the correct voltage output for the whole battery. I recommend drawing a diagram or taking photos of the old configuration, and saving the frame/spacer and straps so you have a guide and parts to use to properly reassemble your replacement cells when they arrive.
> 
> ...



Very much this. I used to work in a warehouse for a company that refurbished and recycled APC UPSs. I can guarantee you that not once did we use official APC RBCs (replacement battery cartridges). We bought third party batteries like Bill is recommending, and used the original RBC tray/bracket and wiring. Aside from the lower-end units, most units used at least two batteries, with some of the larger RBCs containing 6 or 8. 

Can't agree with the last paragraph more. Properly recycle your batteries people!


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## OneMoar (Sep 9, 2020)

some battery's have adapter Circuits right in the battery they make motorcycle batterys like this that drop right in
something like this


			https://www.amazon.com/Supersmart-Lithium-Battery-2-5AH-150CCA/dp/B07JY71Z7D
		


if you go the car battery route make sure its a deep cycle


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## kiriakost (Sep 9, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> While I very much appreciate opinions, what I was really after was experiences.


I will never offer to any one my in-depth experiences, but a few pictures they will not cause any harm even to hobbyists.



milewski1015 said:


> Very much this. I used to work in a warehouse for a company that refurbished and recycled APC UPSs. I can guarantee you that not once did we use official APC RBCs (replacement battery cartridges). We bought third party batteries like Bill is recommending, and used the original RBC tray/bracket and wiring. Aside from the lower-end units, most units used at least two batteries, with some of the larger RBCs containing 6 or 8.
> 
> Can't agree with the last paragraph more. Properly recycle your batteries people!



This will awake some of your memories 





						APC UXBP24  battery box UNBOXING  -  Thanks to one eBay seller  :-)
					

APC UXBP24  battery box UNBOXING  -  Thanks to one eBay seller  :-)



					www.ittsb.eu


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## Fry178 (Sep 9, 2020)

there are lithium and there are lithium, doesnt mean there the same. (Lipo/Liio/LifePO4 etc).
would you say the non rechargeable energizer AA are the same as: in your phone? In RC equipment?
There are enough Li based "replacement" batteries for stuff that is identical in use/charge to the lead type in use.

Nothing prevents a manufacture to put the charging related stuff INSIDE the battery enclosure (best example the smart batteries from DJi)
and have the regular connectors matching (lead type) hook ups.

dont care to spend more than 1 min to find an example, so i go with a car (not MC/UPS) battery.

starter battery (able to replace a lead battery, running on 12V charging system).


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 9, 2020)

suggests the UPS application will work.


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## milewski1015 (Sep 9, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I will never offer to any one my in-depth experiences, but a few pictures they will not cause any harm even to hobbyists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure if it was those exact ones, but I recall having to remove the batteries from RBCs very similar to the ones pictured a few times - I don't remember the cardboard spacers in them, but they were definitely that size, shape, and configuration. Those ones were a bitch and a half, that's for sure.


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## 1freedude (Sep 10, 2020)

I say go for it.  Most here might be hung up on the fact that the item description clearly states for optimal usage.....use specific charger.  The danger of overcharging a lifepo4 with sla or even flooded cell charger when it has an included bms is almost non existent.  The bms will have to work hard when at 90-99 percent capacity, to optimize the charge of the battery, but im guessing it also has a balance circuit to keep each cell healthy.


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## yotano211 (Sep 10, 2020)

I love Lithium batteries, got 500ah 12v on a sailboat. The old AGM lead acid batteries dont compare.


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## John Naylor (Sep 10, 2020)

1.   Have to remember that it's not just one type of battery being better or worse ... the charger must be suited for the battery.  This may not always be the case.

2.  Yes, with Increased Battery Load, by definition = Increased amperage.  Its right in the formula.

P = A x V or A = P / V

Current (A) =  Watts (P) / Voltage (V)

So if voltage remains constant and load increase.... then if amperage does not increase proportionally then the formula doesn't work.  Battery Chargers have to be concerned with overheating the battery, so they will have current limiters to prevent damage ... but yes, current does vary.  There will be  a maximum current rating which the limiter will protect it from, but it will reduce amperage when the max is not needed.

3. Would also suggest that you  consider than price and compatibility ... 

a)  Shipping - some vendors provide free shipping others don't and batteries are quite heavy.
b)  When I last shopped for replacement batteries, there was a wide variance in warranty (1 - 4 years)
c)  Usage matters ... some vendors add an extra year to the warranty if used in an UPS
d)  Payment Method - many AMEX cards add an additional 1 year warranty to everything ypu purchase


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## kiriakost (Sep 10, 2020)

yotano211 said:


> I love Lithium batteries, got 500ah 12v on a sailboat. The old AGM lead acid batteries dont compare.



The sudden cut-off and the poor performance at cold weather, this is something that AGM will never do.
Lithium and cold weather this is 30% lower delivery / capacity, in mAh and crank current.  
Lifepo4 behave the same at cold weather , below 16 Celsius. 
For critical applications AGM with double plates this is the only solution (snowmobiles) or marine use.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 10, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> So if voltage remains constant and load increase.... then if amperage does not increase proportionally then the formula doesn't work.


Huh? The formula always works. Period.

It is based on the Laws of Physics. So if the voltage remains constant and the load increases, current WILL go up in the formula. Period. And why? Because the formula says so. 

If the current does not go up in the hardware as dictated by the formula, then something in the hardware doesn't work - either by design (as in some form of over-current or thermal protection) or by some fault. Either way, the formula always works. 



kiriakost said:


> The sudden cut-off and the poor performance at cold weather, this is something that AGM will never do.


Never do? Huh? This of course is not true either as 30 seconds with Google easily shows. 

While certainly excessive heat is more destructive to batteries than extreme cold (see line 4 in my signature), when any battery, including AGM batteries, are subjected to cold (not even extreme cold) the chemical reaction processes that produce the electricity slow down. This is why batteries designed for vehicles (cars, boats, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc.) typically have a CCA (cold cranking amps) rating too. When these batteries are subjected to extreme colds, those chemical processes may completely stop! When the chemical processes slow down, performance drops. When the chemical processes stop, so does current flow. 

Where AGM batteries differ is when their temperatures return to normal, so do their capacities (unless frozen solid at about -75°F/-60°C). 

Cold Weather And Your Batteries


> AGM/gel batteries could lose as much as 76% of their capacity at -4F (-20C).
> 
> By most metrics, AGM/SLA/gel batteries are not much better in cold weather than flooded versions.




[PDF] The Effects of Cold on Batteries


> How Does Cold Effect the Battery?
> Batteries become "inactive" when they become cold!


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## kiriakost (Sep 10, 2020)

I have no intention to scare you, but I am the son of a cars freelancer electrician, but I escaped from that route and got at industrial electronics and power electronics because I lost my father in the age of fifteen years old.
For outdoor use, just get AGM with double plates.
YUASA Japan has such a series.


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## R-T-B (Sep 10, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I have no intention to scare you, but I am the son of a cars freelancer electrician, but I escaped from that route and got at industrial electronics and power electronics because I lost my father in the age of fifteen years old.
> For outdoor use, just get AGM with double plates.
> YUASA Japan has such a series.



And I am the son of an auto mechanic.  He hurt his hip & back falling from a ladder recently, and now just sits on the couch and yells at the TV.

Point is, bill still is right about the chemistry.  There may be AGMs that can handle cold, but there are also Lithium batteries that can too.  Those Dakota ones quoted are rated down to -20 F.


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## kiriakost (Sep 10, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> And I am the son of an auto mechanic.  He hurt his hip & back falling from a ladder recently, and now just sits on the couch and yells at the TV.
> 
> Point is, bill still is right about the chemistry.  There may be AGMs that can handle cold, but there are also Lithium batteries that can too.  Those Dakota ones quoted are rated down to -20 F.



I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.


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## 1freedude (Sep 10, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.


Here you are








						EarthX ETX-900 TSO 14V Aircraft Lithium Battery | Aircraft Spruce
					

EarthX ETX-900 TSO 14V Aircraft Lithium Battery The ETX900-TSO Certified Aircraft battery is only 5.4 pounds and can be used in an aircraft that has an alternator/generator with 80 amps output or less. This battery has electronic protection




					www.aircraftspruce.com
				



While i was not an avi guy, I was a strucural mechanic for rotary wing craft.  Lithium, especially lifepo4, can do every thing lead can.  The only cell better is NiMH.

And Bill, car batts and the like are made from 2 volt cells to create a 6s battery


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 10, 2020)

> And Bill, car batts and the like are made from 2 volt cells to create a 6s battery


Ummm... okay.   

That's common knowledge for many - especially for those of us who grew up when car batteries had 6 filler caps and we periodically had to check and fill each cell with distilled water when low. 

I also spent a few semester hours in school studying batteries, as might be assumed if you follow the link in my sig. 12V UPS SLA batteries are made up of 6 cells too. Any battery can become a cell in a bigger battery simply by adding (strapping) more batteries together in the pack.  This flashlight uses 2 AA batteries. But they turn into cells once inserted in the flashlight where they then become its one battery. 

This replacement APC battery is one battery. It is also two batteries that became two cells in one battery once strapped together. So I don't see your point. It is irrelevant here anyway. This discussion is not about cells in a battery. 


kiriakost said:


> I have no intention to scare you, but I am the son of a [fill in the blank].


I also don't see the point of who our fathers are. What scares me is seem to think that matters! I am sorry you lost your dad at such a young age, but that's part of life too. I've lost both my parents, and my only sister was taken tragically. But that's irrelevant too. 

My dad graduated West Point on D-Day, and quickly became a P-38 fighter and recon pilot and instructor pilot during WWII. That does not make me an ace pilot. I'm a certified master electronics technician with nearly 50 years experience. But my son is a banker and knows nothing about electronics or computers. That's doesn't scare me either. Big banks ruling the world does, but that's irrelevant here too. 


1freedude said:


> Lithium, especially lifepo4, can do every thing lead can.  The only cell better is NiMH.


Ummm, not hardly. Again, 30 seconds with Google tells us NiMH have about the worst shelf-life of any battery type with the typical NiMH battery losing 50% of its charge in 30 days. They also have lower voltage capacities per cell. That requires more cells to achieve the same voltage as Li-Ion. They cannot tolerate heat as well, support fewer discharge/charge cycles, and one of their biggest downsides is they take much longer to charge. 

NiMH is generally preferred to NiCad but beyond that, Lithium, even with its significant faults, is the better option.


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## kiriakost (Sep 10, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> I also don't see the point of who our fathers are.



Because your own was not  expert at hand made GSM battery manufacturing. 
My father used initials from my mothers name and made it a brand.
This is hand made external bridge for 19 plates battery, I had also samples from the lead plate, but over the years they were lost.



1freedude said:


> Here you are
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My reference was of use in aviation for public transport ,  currently anything with Lithium cells this is forbidden even to be transferred with air-plain.


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## R-T-B (Sep 11, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.



Boeing says hello.  Believe their latest airplanes use Lithium cells, and yes, have had some issues, but are definitely on it.

Personally I don't live in the upper atmosphere.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 11, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> I would become a believer if aviation that is No1 critical application, this will adopt Lithium batteries.





R-T-B said:


> Boeing says hello.  Believe their latest airplanes use Lithium cells, and yes, have had some issues, but are definitely on it.
> Personally I don't live in the upper atmosphere.



Dreamliner hasn't had further incidents in 7 years like the ANA battery fire and since revised regulations for Li-ion batteries, but I'm not sure if it's a good example of "adoption". A350 went to Ni-Cd, 77W/77L retrofitted with Ni-Cd, and new 777X use Ni-Cd as well. If you _really _want the mission-critical example, the newest Soryu SSK has Li-ion on board.

But quite honestly, there's no shortage of ways to find original-brand and similar/identical replacement batteries for your UPS, so this just seems like a weird experiment born out of boredom. Most of the glowing reviews for the batteries praise the light weight more than anything else; I doubt you'll be lugging your UPS to a campground every Saturday. Also, that "official" video in the workshop is hella mom-and-pop level rough for a large and reputable company lol


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## R-T-B (Sep 11, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Dreamliner hasn't had further incidents in 7 years like the ANA battery fire and since revised regulations for Li-ion batteries, but I'm not sure if it's a good example of "adoption". A350 went to Ni-Cd, 77W/77L retrofitted with Ni-Cd, and new 777X use Ni-Cd as well. If you _really _want the mission-critical example, the Soryu SSKs have used Li-ion on board for more than a decade now.
> 
> But quite honestly, there's no shortage of ways to find original-brand and similar/identical replacement batteries for your UPS, so this just seems like a weird experiment born out of boredom. Most of the glowing reviews for the batteries praise the light weight more than anything else; I doubt you'll be lugging your UPS to a campground every Saturday. Also, that "official" video in the workshop is hella mom-and-pop level rough for a large and reputable company lol



My point was, almost every battery tech has a variant that can be applied to a role.  That said, if Lithium-based batteries are really superior for the role of a UPS, you'd think the UPS manufacturers would be on board by now with a "cutting edge" new product.  The only reason I can think of if you assume the claims are true is cost/manufacturing supply is not up to speed yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm tempted to try it myself just to see what it'd do, but it costs too much.  And I'd never do it in a customers setup.


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## kiriakost (Sep 11, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Personally I don't live in the upper atmosphere.



This is a good choice because upper atmosphere this is frozen.
Outside of the upper atmosphere the temperature (satellites) this gets to minus 150 Celsius.

I think that this topic it is now saturated regarding available options as batteries for a small UPS.
SUA 1000* XL , *this made to use *up to four external battery packs*,  it charger deliver 10A  unrestricted / unregulated.
This translates that personally I can only use beefy car batteries as replacement, and I do that in the past two years.

*APC RCB* packs, are made by using made in India cells ( 4 years longevity at max), and their retail price this is unreasonable.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 11, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> That said, if Lithium-based batteries are really superior for the role of a UPS, you'd think the UPS manufacturers would be on board by now with a "cutting edge" new product. The only reason I can think of if you assume the claims are true is cost/manufacturing supply is not up to speed yet.


^^^THIS^^^ There are UPS that use Li-Ion batteries but as you suggested, they are expensive - costing more than most home and small business consumers are willing to budget for. That said, such UPS can be cost effective over the long run as those batteries tend to have longer life spans. So if the initial purchase price can be tolerated, it may be worth considering buying an UPS that uses Li-Ion batteries. 



kiriakost said:


> Because your own was not expert at hand made GSM battery manufacturing.


So what? That does not make you an expert at anything. And sorry, but keep demonstrating a lack of expertise in battery technologies. 


kiriakost said:


> *APC RCB* packs, are made by using made in India cells  ( 4 years longevity at max)


 Homework, people! APC RCB packs are typically made with cells made in China. This image is a little blurred but you can easily see in the bottom right, just under the label, "Made in China". 

I have peeled the APC labels off many cells over the years, for APC UPS used the US, Canada, Mexico, UK (England and Scotland) and Germany markets only to see this.

Same with Cyberpower, Tripp Lite, Eaton, Liebert, and a few off the wall brands and store brand UPS too. While some UPS made in India (a country I have not been in) for the Indian market may have cells made in India, it is wrong to assume all APC batteries use cells from India. 

And while 3 - 4 years is typical for any SLA UPS battery, it really depends on how they are used, and the ambient environment they are operated in. Depending on use, some will and have lasted 5 or 6 years or even longer. 

And FTR, while the temperatures in space where satellites orbit can easily be -150°C or colder, it should be noted those batteries and the electronics they support are operated in heated, temperature controlled compartments.


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## Aquinus (Sep 11, 2020)

You know, beyond that there is another very important issue that I don't think has been addressed and that's the fire hazard the Li-Ion presents and its restrictions with regards to shipping. It's not feasible to make a UPS of equivalent capacity with Li-Ion batteries without having to deal with significant barriers to getting the product to the end user, at least here in the United States. So while it might be superior, the logistics are much more complex.

Want to ship something with Li-Ion batteries? You might be interested in reading the USPS' restrictions on shipping them.





						USPS Packaging Instruction 9D | Postal Explorer
					






					pe.usps.com


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 11, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> You know, beyond that there is another very important issue that I don't think has been addressed and that's the fire hazard the Li-Ion presents and its restrictions with regards to shipping.


Well, "fire" has been mentioned but I think you are right and it was not in the context of shipping. There are restrictions, especially when shipping in large quantities - though I suspect the manufacturers would deny there are any fire hazards with "their" Li-Ion batteries.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 11, 2020)

Its OK, I have lead many a thread astray... life happens.

Impression I get is that LiFePO4 batteries can work in SLA based UPS units, but it might not be economical, and one needs to downrate the UPS to perhaps around half its power.

When Dakota Lithium say








						Dakota Lithium 12v 10Ah Battery - Dakota Lithium Batteries
					

Half the weight and twice the power of traditional lead batteries, this workhorse gives you the perfect amount of juice for full-day adventures. The #1 battery for fishing & outdoor recreation.



					dakotalithium.com
				



"Half the weight and twice the power of traditional lead batteries"

I think they mean twice the energy


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## freeagent (Sep 12, 2020)

I have 2x 3S 5000 mah Lipo packs for my RC car.. serious business guys.. be careful with this stuff. I use a Hyperion balance charger with a power supply to manage them. Don’t want to see you burn your house down.


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## kiriakost (Sep 12, 2020)

freeagent said:


> I have 2x 3S 5000 mah Lipo packs for my RC car.. serious business guys.. be careful with this stuff. I use a Hyperion balance charger with a power supply to manage them. Don’t want to see you burn your house down.



You are welcome !  Once I did came close to get for my self a Hyperion balance charger (300 Euro price range) , they was from the best.
While lithium cells does  not cooperate with UPS circuit, for a month time, I did use lithium cells at my UPS, they were lithium bag type 10 AH its one cell.
They could handle 10A charge and even 15A discharge, but I was not satisfied by their total performance.
The hobbyists they should stay away from such experiments, because as you said they are not aware of all hidden hazards.



Anwar.Shiekh said:


> *I think they mean twice the energy*



*Twice delivery of required cranking ampere for a motorcycle starter.*
I did perform electrical current measurements at my HONDA 250cc (starter) and now I have recorded statistics.


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## Aquinus (Sep 12, 2020)

freeagent said:


> I have 2x 3S 5000 mah Lipo packs for my RC car.. serious business guys.. be careful with this stuff. I use a Hyperion balance charger with a power supply to manage them. Don’t want to see you burn your house down.


This. Over charging a Li-Ion battery too quickly when it's mostly charged could cause a fire. The right type of charger is essential to *safely* using Li-Ion batteries.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 12, 2020)

LiFePO4 seems safer than other lithium chemistries








						Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## jsfitz54 (Sep 12, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> LiFePO4 seems safer than other lithium chemistries
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's time for you to buy the LiFePO4 and report back to us on the outcome.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 12, 2020)

My problem is that I would need over $400 worth of batteries for the UPS I would use, so it seemed sage for me to first find out if it was going to work.


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## Caring1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> My problem is that I would need over $400 worth of batteries for the UPS I would use, so it seemed sage for me to first find out if it was going to work.


Cost is a major factor.
As for use scenarios I feel using them in a UPS where they are trickle charged is much safer than the example of a Motor Cycle battery, where they are fed 14V and can be deeply discharged by the CCA required, Lithium batteries are not capable of handling deep cycle environments over a long term.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 13, 2020)

JustAnEngineer said:


> Replacing with a larger (externally connected) lead acid battery worked, though.


I have one that runs on a pair of deep-cell marine batteries. Can run my systems(3) on that setup for nearly 4 hours.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 17, 2020)

How often do you need to replace them?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> How often do you need to replace them?


Don't know. The batteries themselves are rated for 10 years of operation but this is not a standard use-case-scenario. Haven't needed to yet. Got them on clearence right before Sears closed and that's been a few years.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 18, 2020)

10 years is impressive, are they sealed or flooded?


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 22, 2020)

These guys








						High Discharge Rate Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Battery
					

The 12 Volt, 7.2 Amp Hour LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery is designed to be a drop in replacement for standard sealed lead acid batteries.




					www.backupbatterypower.com
				



make high discharge rate lithium batteries
"designed to be a drop in replacement for standard sealed lead acid batteries in UPS"


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 23, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> 10 years is impressive, are they sealed or flooded?


Mine are sealed.


Anwar.Shiekh said:


> These guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are not designed for a UPS. High discharge rate batteries are designed to release their charge in short big bursts for starting combustion motors and the like. You want lead-acid batteries design for slow release of charge over a long time period. That is why I chose marine batteries for my setup, they are literally designed to provide standard power for boats with living quarters when the motor is not running. A set of 10 of them(because 10x12v=120v) can run for a few days depending on how you use the power. Using fewer than 10 requires the use of a step-up voltage transformer.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 23, 2020)

Interesting, I imagine you can run a normal computer on 120V DC

However








makes me worried about using high voltage DC


I beg to differ on the 'not designed for a UPS'; they are good to 540W continuous, which I would say was a good match for a UPS using that size battery.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 23, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> I beg to differ on the 'not designed for a UPS'; they are good to 540W continuous, which I would say was a good match for a UPS using that size battery.


The wattage is not the main consideration. Voltage x Amperage=Wattage. High-discharge batteries are design to deliver very high amps at 12v for short periods of time. They do not work very well delivering low amps for a long period of time. 540w may seem like a high number but it's actually very low when compared to the cold-cranking wattage needed to start a combustion motor.


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 23, 2020)

How are your switches holding up on your 120V DC?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2020)

Anwar.Shiekh said:


> How are your switches holding up on your 120V DC?


What? Think I lost you there...


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## IntelliSys (Sep 24, 2020)

I would recommend APC RBC not refurb personally - despite higher price point it provides some peace of mind at least. 

Echo the point about disposal of batteries - if you don't know how to make sure to get a professional to dispose of it properly!


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## Deleted member 191766 (Sep 24, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> What? Think I lost you there...


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## 1freedude (Nov 6, 2020)

Thought you might get a kick out of this....that isn't 1% of the batteries we used at my recently resigned job.


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## Shrek (Nov 23, 2021)

Was surprised to find small lithium UPS batteries now at 18 Ah capacity


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## OneMoar (Nov 24, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Was surprised to find small lithium UPS batteries now at 18 Ah capacity


You can get a lot more then then Tracker Marine makes a 80 AH
and these are up to 170 AH





						Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Battery Packs Archives
					

Tracer LiFePO4 battery packs offer stable power you can rely on. 1/3 the weight of SLA, we are confident you will be impressed with their performance.




					www.tracerpower.com


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## ThaiTaffy (Nov 24, 2021)

It's pretty easy to convert a DIY lithium battery to use on a ups with a simple bms charging circuit designed for the voltage, but alot harder to do with the batteries shown here.
The issue is the cells,  the charging circuits might take 12v but they spread out the voltage into manageable chunks for the cells meaning their output might be serial but the charging is done on per cell basis see a small circuit below.




Ripping apart a contained battery to split the cells for charging makes these sealed lithium batteries need a more specific charging circuit.


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## OneMoar (Nov 24, 2021)

the battery's I listed already have integrated bms no need for a external one
a cheap DIY BMS is not going to handle the current shunt-ing of a line interactive AVR/UPS


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## ThaiTaffy (Nov 24, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> the battery's I listed already have integrated bms no need for a external one
> a cheap DIY BMS is not going to handle the current shunt-ing of a line interactive AVR/UPS


Some cheap DIY BMS's can handle it and alot more the above photo just has a nice picture to explain heres a cheap DIY bms for your home solar battery.




That's besides the point as One Moar pointed out unless your battery has a built in bms you have very little use options

The issue then is that lithium can charge at 50% of output current where as a gel battery is generally 10%


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## OneMoar (Nov 24, 2021)

a primer on AVR's 
a Good UPS is whats called a line-interactive Meaning the Battery and Inverter are always in Sync with mains power 
in the event of a brownout the extra power is taken from the battery and the inverter is brought on line to supplement the low mains voltage
the problem happens in the event of surge event
in most Units I have seen any SURGE Current, is Shunted in the batteries as the protect relay is grounded to the battery cells this lets the battery soak up the energy of the event
if the BMS can not handle the sudden spike of current going into the cell the same way a SLA or GEL would then the result is a fried bms and potentially a fire 
be aware of that when adapting existing units to li-po or LiFePO


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## Shrek (Nov 24, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> You can get a lot more then then Tracker Marine makes a 80 AH
> and these are up to 170 AH
> 
> 
> ...



I meant 18 Ah in that form factor (double the normal SLA capacity) 15.1 cm x 6.5 cm x 9.4 cm

That is why I wrote

"Was surprised to find small lithium UPS batteries now at 18 Ah capacity"
and included a picture


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## trog100 (Nov 28, 2021)

i run 10 100ah   LiFePO4  batteries.. two in my rv trailer and eight in my shed... 

the drop in replacement ones have battery management systems built in to them.. these switch off the charge when fully charged and switch of the battery when flattened.. its all automatic.. 

lead acid batteries need complicated charging profiles.. lthium ones dont as long as they have the bms..

they cost more up front but last for years..

the ones in my shed are solar charged but can be mains charged.. i power part of my house with them.. they have a 3000 watt inverter to give mains power and an automatic transfer switch.. when the switch detects a user set (low) battery voltage it seemlessly switches over to mains power.. 

the only downside with LiFePO4  batteries is the higher upfront cost.. apart from that they have everything going for them..

trog
​


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## Shrek (Nov 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I meant 18 Ah in that form factor (double the normal SLA capacity) 15.1 cm x 6.5 cm x 9.4 cm
> 
> That is why I wrote
> 
> ...



I do believe that I mixed up the battery sizes... best ignore what I said.


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