# Do I need extremely fast internet?



## Mighty-Lu-Bu (Sep 10, 2018)

I game online and I stream in HD and sometimes in 4k. I am paying for speeds in the 400Mbs range, is this a little overkill for my roommate and I? Just looking at ways to reduce.


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## Frick (Sep 10, 2018)

Yes it is. 100mbps will do just fine, unless you plan on doing several actual 4K-streams at once while redownloading an entire Steam library and expecting it to be done within the hour.


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## phanbuey (Sep 10, 2018)

You can always throttle your connection at the wifi router for a few days just to test.  If it's fine then drop down and save some money.


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## Ahhzz (Sep 10, 2018)

Mighty-Lu-Bu said:


> I game online and I stream in HD and sometimes in 4k. I am paying for speeds in the 400Mbs range, is this a little overkill for my roommate and I? Just looking at ways to reduce.







Faster is always better. .


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## Mighty-Lu-Bu (Sep 10, 2018)

Frick said:


> Yes it is. 100mbps will do just fine, unless you plan on doing several actual 4K-streams at once while redownloading an entire Steam library and expecting it to be done within the hour.



I honestly rarely do that unless I am doing a brand new build. Typically, I only have a few games installed at any given time anyways.


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## Ahhzz (Sep 10, 2018)

Mighty-Lu-Bu said:


> I honestly rarely do that unless I am doing a brand new build. Typically, I only have a few games installed at any given time anyways.


*sigh* joking aside, you're probably good to bump it down a tier or two.


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## er557 (Sep 10, 2018)

only you can answer the question "do I really need". Everyone is different. Even if you only sometimes use the whole bandwidth, I wouldn't downgrade. It's counter intuitive. I also don't NEED 72 threads in my machine, yet I wouldn't give it up for the life of me.


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## qubit (Sep 10, 2018)

Ahhzz said:


> View attachment 106558
> 
> Faster is always better. .


That's from the Windows 95 days, but it never gets old!


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## Solaris17 (Sep 11, 2018)

Your trying to answer two fundamentally different problems with one question. The correct answer is you cant have your cake and eat it too.

Speed=/=Response

If you would like fast downloads speed is important. so the faster your network connection the better. Thats because speed just wants as much data as possible at once regardless of transmit times or packet loss.

Gaming however is vastly different. Since online games do not use intense amounts of bandwidth. In fact most communication in online games is sub 5mb/s. This is because online games deal with syncing. Sync data is the correspondence (usually position data like the sights of your scope or your character in the world) between the server and the client. This data is not alot in some cases only kb/s. However the better the "accuracy" read latency the better the information and the better the experience.

The problem is these are not mutually exclusive. You can have a fast connection and have bad latency to your destination. Likewise you can have a slow connection and fantastic latency.

Of course either of these things completly rely on the ORIGIN 400mb/s from speedtest.net at 30ms latency might not equate to a 400mb/s download from youtube if its hosted on a server far away since it needs to travel through multiple ISPs and core routers to get to you.

Likewise a fantastic latency connection might not mean anything if you live in the US and try to play an MMO based in the UK and you need to transverse undersea cables.


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## johnspack (Sep 11, 2018)

Well I only have a 200MB/s connection,  and have 2 roomates,  one who streams all day and the other one games online all day.  I dl gigs of linux distros and other junk at the same time.
At 120can a month,  I'm good!  And 100MB/s and above should give you low enough latency for any online gaming.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 11, 2018)

Just cut it in half.


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## king of swag187 (Sep 11, 2018)

Well, a true answer would be that it's up too you. A half answer would be how often do you use it and how much you pay for it
Me? I'm mostly happy with 100/30 wifi in my room and 300/30 at base station, but it's up to you


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 11, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> If you would like fast downloads speed is important. so the faster your network connection the better.


Not always. So I agree with the others and cut it back and see if what you actually see is a problem. 

Remember, when you download and stream, it is NOT all about your network connection as some might think. Your network connection speeds, as provided by your ISP is only that between your gateway device (typically your modem) and the PoP - your ISP's "point of presence". The PoP is where your ISP connects you to the Internet backbone. Beyond that, you are at the mercy of whatever is happening "out there". If Netflix's servers and Internet connections, for example, cannot stream to you faster than 80Mbps (just throwing out numbers), then you are definitely wasting your money going with 400Mbps. 

So I agree with Frick and phanbuey. Unless you have several demanding streams happening at once, you are not likely to "see" any difference. So throttle back and see how it goes. If you can live with it, save some money and change your service agreement.


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## Solaris17 (Sep 12, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Remember, when you download and stream, it is NOT all about your network connection as some might think. Your network connection speeds, as provided by your ISP is only that between your gateway device (typically your modem) and the PoP - your ISP's "point of presence". The PoP is where your ISP connects you to the Internet backbone.



I think you need to re-read my post in its entirety or comment on something you understand more about.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 12, 2018)

I think you need to stop having a cow every time someone adds to what you said. 

What I said is perfectly valid. If you are running a 1000Mbps network in your home, that does not mean every networked computer will see 1000Mbps bandwidth through the ISP, all the hops, and distant end network and server. If there is a bottleneck down the line (and there often is), putting a bigger pipe on your end will not speed up delivery. Maybe you should get a better understanding before criticizing others.

"Not always" does NOT mean "not ever".


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## Brusfantomet (Sep 12, 2018)

Yes, its overkill.

I have a 1 Gbit link myself and the only reason for that is because my work pays the bill.

Its nice to be able to download a big game fast, but for streaming 100 Mbit would do, and for gaming you want low ping.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 12, 2018)

Thank God the internet is dirt cheap in my region. I am paying the equivalent of something like 15 bucks for 1 Gbps.

That being said I wouldn't downgrade. You can't have overkill speeds.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 12, 2018)

Mine's not dirt cheap by any means. But I have to give kudos to Cox. I pay for "up to" 50Mbps download and 5Mbps upload. But clearly they beat that:


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## Deleted member 178884 (Sep 12, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Mine's not dirt cheap by any means. But I have to give kudos to Cox. I pay for "up to" 50Mbps download and 5Mbps upload. But clearly they beat that:


Wish UK isp's done the same - unfortunately that's not the case with virgin media.




That's mine - guess it's not too bad at all.


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## Crusti (Sep 12, 2018)

If you do all these things you need an extremely fast Internet for sure. One thing is when you jut watch some videos - then usual Internet is enough for few people. In your case it's not enough.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 13, 2018)

Crusti said:


> extremely fast Internet


"Extremely fast Internet" is a very relative term that constantly changes.


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## Crusti (Sep 14, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> "Extremely fast Internet" is a very relative term that constantly changes.


What do you mean?


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## BarbaricSoul (Sep 14, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> live in the US and try to play an MMO based in the UK and you need to transverse undersea cables.



I used to do that on 56k


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 14, 2018)

Crusti said:


> Bill_Bright said:
> 
> 
> > "Extremely fast Internet" is a very relative term that constantly changes.
> ...


Two things. 

First, in terms of it being relative, I mean to someone used to 10Mbps, 50Mbps might seem "extremely fast". To someone used to 50Mpbs, 100Mbps might seem "extremely fast". And to someone used to 100Mbps, 400Mbps might seem "extremely fast". 

And second, by constantly changing, I mean just that. Just 2 months ago, my ISP's top speed for my "plan" was "up to" 50Mbps and we were getting about 60Mbps. But my ISP has changed and improved their service so now my same plan, as seen above, is giving us much faster speeds (over 100Mbps). In the 25+ years since I have had this same "plan" with my ISP, the top speeds have gone from 10Mbps to 20Mpbs to 30Mpbs to 50Mpbs and now over 100Mpbs. 

So "extremely fast" depends on what you are used to, and that is likely to change as the Internet itself gets faster and faster.


BarbaricSoul said:


> I used to do that on 56k


Well, I started "networking" at 300 "baud". So when I upgraded to my first 56K modem, I thought that was "extremely fast" So again, it is all relative, and constantly changing. 

Remember when 64K of RAM and 20MB of hard disk space was "_More than you will ever need!_"?


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## Crusti (Sep 17, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Two things.
> 
> First, in terms of it being relative, I mean to someone used to 10Mbps, 50Mbps might seem "extremely fast". To someone used to 50Mpbs, 100Mbps might seem "extremely fast". And to someone used to 100Mbps, 400Mbps might seem "extremely fast".
> 
> ...



Okay, I meant the fastest from the available ones in order to let everyone do what they want without hunging up.


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 17, 2018)

my net tops out at 87mb down and 20-30up and i cannot see myself dropping down to anything lower.


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## dirtyferret (Sep 17, 2018)

not only is it complete overkill but like Bill stated when using streaming services your issue is almost "upstream" dependent.  Streaming a 4k movie from Amazon or Netflix (they use amazon servers) uses about 3-6mbps depending on the scene.  Hulu, Playstation Vue, Amazon, etc., all compress the snot out of a stream that 1080p barely breaks 1.5 mbps now.  

Our ISP upgraded us from 60 to 100mbps and I see no difference in anything we do at all at home.  In fact yesterday my Asus AC 1900 died on me (less then two years old and kept shutting down wi-fi after a few minutes each time I did a hard reboot) so I grabbed mu old Asus N600 router.  It handled streaming a 1080p movie my kids watched, two mobile phones, my wife streaming the cooking channel, my computer playing an online video game and a 1080p football game streaming to a TV as watched with one eye on the game and one playing a video game.  The N600 router never broke 10 mbps and there was never a buffering issue.


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 17, 2018)

Crusti said:


> Okay, I meant the fastest from the available ones in order to let everyone do what they want without hunging up.


It is still not that easy. And there are still many variables. If it was that easy, I would simply say from slower to faster, it goes like this:

1. Dial-up​2. DSL​3. Cable​4. Fiber-optic​
The problem is, "available ones" depends on where you live, the providers in your area, the service levels they provide, and (perhaps most importantly) what you are willing to pay for. So you need to first and foremost, see what is available in your area. Then decide how much you are willing to pay every month.  

There's generally no argument that dial-up is slowest and fiber is fastest.  And typically cable is faster than DSL. But in some regions, faster DSL is available. 

Most cell phone carriers also provide Internet access, but it typically is pretty slow, and can be very expensive. Satellite providers may also provide Internet access in some areas and often is pretty slow. In other areas, satellite is the only Internet access available. 

A significant variable is your demand on your connection. If it is just you in the house, and at most, you will only have one on-line gaming session or HD TV streaming session at one time, or if just you surfing the Internet and streaming HD to one TV at any one time, a decent DSL connection will be plenty. But if there are several Internet users in your home sharing one connection who will all be accessing the Internet at the same time, you will probably need more bandwidth (a faster connection).


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2018)

If 400Mbps isn't hugely expensive, over 100Mbps or any other plan, then keep it. Also unless there's zero competition in your area, the plans will get cheaper over time. So if this plan is affordable, just about, then you ought not to go back a tier below.


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## dirtyferret (Sep 17, 2018)

There is also the issue of how far away you are from the "head end".  Is it in the same town/city, one town over, or the other side of the county like some communities have.



R0H1T said:


> If 400Mbps isn't hugely expensive, over 100Mbps or any other plan, then keep it. Also unless there's zero competition in your area, the plans will get cheaper over time. So if this plan is affordable, just about, then you ought not to go back a tier below.


....what ISP plan gets cheaper over time?  I've yet to see one.


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2018)

dirtyferret said:


> There is also the issue of how far away you are from the "head end".  Is it in the same town/city, one town over, or the other side of the county like some communities have.
> 
> 
> ....what ISP plan gets cheaper over time?  *I've yet to see one*.


You mean with competition they don't? I've seen 10~100Mbps plan get really cheap in my area, granted there's 3 alternatives to choose from.


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## dirtyferret (Sep 17, 2018)

We have a choice of two, cable and a half baked DSL set up.  My cable ISP has raised prices every year and every year I tell them i'm switching if they dont give me the old plan (I worked in the cable network industry for years).  When I lived in a city we had a choice of TW and At&T and both raised prices constantly.  Consider yourself extremely lucky you have three ISP to choose from.  Most places have just one.


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2018)

dirtyferret said:


> We have a choice of two, cable and a half baked DSL set up.  My cable ISP has raised prices every year and every year I tell them i'm switching if they dont give me the old plan (I worked in the cable network industry for years).  When I lived in a city we had a choice of TW and At&T and both raised prices constantly.  *Consider yourself extremely lucky you have three ISP to choose from*.  Most places have just one.


It totally depends on where you live, for instance in some Indian metros there are as many as 5 or 6 viable choices. Obviously the better ones are (generally) more expensive, but with speeds going up across the country ~ more plans are getting cheaper each passing year.


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## Durvelle27 (Sep 17, 2018)

You need the fastest possible


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## dirtyferret (Sep 17, 2018)

What places have 5-6?  I live in the largest metro area in the country and everyone has two if they are lucky.  When I lived in the south people had one or two.  Unless you are lucky enough to have Google fiber you probably have one or two unless you use a cell phone provider and Bill already explained those cons.


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2018)

dirtyferret said:


> What places have 5-6?  I live in the largest metro area in the country and everyone has two if they are lucky.  When I lived in the south people had one or two.  Unless you are lucky enough to have Google fiber you probably have one or two unless you use a cell phone provider and Bill already explained those cons.


"Indian metros"


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## dirtyferret (Sep 17, 2018)

Consider yourself very lucky, the rest of the country has fewer choices.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 17, 2018)

dirtyferret said:


> Consider yourself very lucky, the rest of the country has fewer choices.


my area is locked out of having a choice of cable via a contract with the apartment complex. I could get an ATT broadband connection but the actual speed is shit and for the same price.


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## dirtyferret (Sep 17, 2018)

Our "competition" is frontier and their ad hock DSL service.  They bought out many of the local AT&T and Verizon DSL services.  They use a combination of phone lines and fiber to the mail box (not the home).  From people who have used them, they offer around 4-10mbps down regardless of what package you get (when its working) and its difficult to cancel their service.  They also have a history of throttling their customer, see link below.  Basically they prey on low income households so you really have no choice but to go with the local cable ISP.
https://consumerist.com/2014/10/21/...ing-they-dont-get-advertised-internet-speeds/


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 17, 2018)

If you have to ask, the answer is "no."  The most a 4K stream will use is ~100 Mb/s, typically much, much less (like 30 Mb/s)


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## Crusti (Sep 21, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> It is still not that easy. And there are still many variables. If it was that easy, I would simply say from slower to faster, it goes like this:
> 
> 1. Dial-up​2. DSL​3. Cable​4. Fiber-optic​
> The problem is, "available ones" depends on where you live, the providers in your area, the service levels they provide, and (perhaps most importantly) what you are willing to pay for. So you need to first and foremost, see what is available in your area. Then decide how much you are willing to pay every month.
> ...



I meant all the things you've mentioned, I just didn't go into details like you do. Of course it depends on several factors and availability of different types of Internet in your area.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Sep 21, 2018)

Before I updated I was able to watch 2-4k and 2-1080p streams with a 100/30 connection.
Gaming depends on the connection of the servers and other people you are gaming with as well as your connection and the speed of your home network.
4k generally runs about 5-9mb/s with surging up to 24... That also depends on quality of the stream... As not all 4k is streamed the same.
Most of it isn't actually 4k it's 2k.


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## R00kie (Sep 21, 2018)

Xx Tek Tip xX said:


> Wish UK isp's done the same - unfortunately that's not the case with virgin media.
> 
> View attachment 106766
> That's mine - guess it's not too bad at all.


Try and live with this:





Paying for 76, and getting 12...


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 21, 2018)

Crusti said:


> I just didn't go into details


It's a technical forum. Details are important to avoid confusion and to ensure understanding.


Crusti said:


> Of course it depends on several factors...


You say "of course" but it is important to remember what seems obvious to you likely isn't to many with less experience in that area. So again, details are important.


dirtyferret said:


> Basically they prey on low income households so you really have no choice but to go with the local cable ISP.


Cable is  typically is the better option anyway - in terms of performance and consistency, not always your budget. That said, not sure Frontier is a good indicative example as that company is dying due to a huge debt. But as the 4th largest DSL provider in this country, we'll have to see if they can pull themselves out of their woes with the help of their new Nokia partnership. If you are the gambling type, you might do well to invest in Frontier. Or you might be throwing away your money!


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## Deleted member 178884 (Sep 21, 2018)

gdallsk said:


> Try and live with this:
> 
> View attachment 107311
> Paying for 76, and getting 12...


BT - no wonder..... Is hyperoptic available in your area? They are the best, Second would be virgin media, I've only got their 50 down package and I done that over wireless 2.4ghz


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## Bill_Bright (Sep 21, 2018)

gdallsk said:


> Paying for 76, and getting 12...


Check your contract. If it says "up to" 76, you may be hosed. But if it shows a minimum, you may have grounds to complain. And for sure, there should be some government consumer protection agency you can complain to too. 

In any event, I would contact your ISPs tech support and have them check your lines.


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## R00kie (Sep 21, 2018)

Xx Tek Tip xX said:


> BT - no wonder..... Is hyperoptic available in your area? They are the best, Second would be virgin media, I've only got their 50 down package and I done that over wireless 2.4ghz


I'm with Plusnet, but they're using BT's infrastructure, last time I was with Virgin, all I got was 4 megs down and up 
such is the life without fiber to the premises


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## Deleted member 178884 (Sep 21, 2018)

gdallsk said:


> I'm with Plusnet, but they're using BT's infrastructure, last time I was with Virgin, all I got was 4 megs down and up
> such is the life without fiber to the premises


Call up and check if it's normal - that's too low to just accept.


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