# ATI ''Evergreen'' Promises You Won't Believe Your Eyes



## btarunr (Aug 16, 2009)

All bets are off, AMD's DirectX 11 compliant GPUs are on course to compliment the commercial launch of Microsoft Windows 7, with enough of a head-start to allow buyers to have DirectX 11 hardware by the time they have the new OS. Codenamed "Evergreen", AMD's new family of graphics processors are slated for September 10, that's 25 days from now. 

The company further carried out demos of its upcoming hardware to sections of the media in private, at their suite in the same hotel in which Quakecon 2009 is being hosted at. Behind the covered side-panel of the Lian-Li is a working sample, which AMD refused to let being pictured. Legit Reviews sneaked around the case to take a shot of its panel nevertheless.

AMD further demonstrated over six new technology demonstrations including Parallax Occlusion Mapping, Detailed Tessellation, and High-Definition Ambient Occlusion, all of which will be some of the key ingredients of DirectX 11, and in all of which, AMD's hardware is churning out high frame-rates at 2560x1600 pixel resolution.



 

 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## qubit (Aug 16, 2009)

Sounds awesome. Let the next round of GPU wars begin!


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## Kitkat (Aug 16, 2009)

hmmm so when does the next chipset come out, I thought it was supose to come out along side it, Im guessing thats october now??


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 16, 2009)

The sooner the better.


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## Lu(ky (Aug 16, 2009)

Oh man I just bought 2 x 4890 XXX with eK Full Blocks 2 days ago... :shadedshu  Oh well that only lasted for couple of days...


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## qubit (Aug 16, 2009)

Lu(ky said:


> Oh man I just bought 2 x 4890 XXX with eK Full Blocks 2 days ago... :shadedshu  Oh well that only lasted for couple of days...



As they're new, can you not just return them for a refund?


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## btarunr (Aug 16, 2009)

Hold on to your HD 4800 cards till this comes out. Don't sell them.


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## SK-1 (Aug 16, 2009)

If DX11 is anything like the "leap" from DX9 to DX10, then meh...


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## buggalugs (Aug 16, 2009)

Lu(ky said:


> Oh man I just bought 2 x 4890 XXX with eK Full Blocks 2 days ago... :shadedshu  Oh well that only lasted for couple of days...



You should read more. The news about DX 11 cards coming out has been around for months.


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## Zubasa (Aug 16, 2009)

SK-1 said:


> If DX11 is anything like the "leap" from DX9 to DX10, then meh...


Well the leap from X1950XTX to 8800GTX then YEAH~


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## tkpenalty (Aug 16, 2009)

this is good. Say bye bye to the random object that the coders forgot to shade....


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## REVHEAD (Aug 16, 2009)

Great news, but all we need now is some games to play with the new hardware, shame there isnt anything decent on the horizon to look foward to.


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## laszlo (Aug 16, 2009)

i'm not really interested in dx11 ... all games are dx9 -10  ..eye-candy... maybe i didn't notice it  .. all i need is decent fps


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## WarEagleAU (Aug 16, 2009)

Sounds awesome, though I wish most of this was driver tweaks or something. Oh well, a new GPU is always a great thing.


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## Lu(ky (Aug 16, 2009)

qubit said:


> As they're new, can you not just return them for a refund?


I could but I wont I already have a 4870X2 card I just throw them to my new HTPC/Gaming Rig I am building with a Asus Rampage Gene II x58



btarunr said:


> Hold on to your HD 4800 cards till this comes out. Don't sell
> them.


Nope I wont..



buggalugs said:


> You should read more. The news about DX 11 cards coming out has been around for months.


I have been reading asking question on many many forums and all I got was not tell end of this year.... Then now this...


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## Kitkat (Aug 16, 2009)

Lu(ky said:


> I could but I wont I already have a 4870X2 card I just throw them to my new HTPC/Gaming Rig I am building with a Asus Rampage Gene II x58
> 
> 
> Nope I wont..
> ...



well they say wept but u know wide = oct so u got time lol.


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## IINexusII (Aug 16, 2009)

Dirt 2 will be the first DX11 game. ill be building my am3 rig hopefully with these dx11 cards


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 16, 2009)

Did anyone notice that the system they are demoing this on has an Athlon II 250?


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## qubit (Aug 16, 2009)

Lu(ky said:


> I could but I wont I already have a 4870X2 card I just throw them to my new HTPC/Gaming Rig I am building with a Asus Rampage Gene II x58



Fair enough.


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## legends84 (Aug 16, 2009)

nice..cant wait.. hope nvidia also will release their DX11 soon


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 16, 2009)

What depresses me about all this is the fact not one of these GPUs will be utilized to its full potential. Why? Because every damn game coming out on the market by a major developer is in fact cross platform. As we all know a game is only as good as its weakest platform. In our case is the 360/PS3.

You guys that just bought a 4870x2 I would suggest you keep them. Its going to be years before they are strained.


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## Frick (Aug 16, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Did anyone notice that the system they are demoing this on has an Athlon II 250?



Yeah, I thought that was a bit fun too.


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## Starforce2142 (Aug 16, 2009)

*It's Wonderful!*

I hope it will be the truth.


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## AltecV1 (Aug 16, 2009)

im all excited now


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## Frick (Aug 16, 2009)

BTW, they often put out the high end cards first, right? So would be a bad idea to buy a hd4670 now?


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## AltecV1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Frick said:


> BTW, they often put out the high end cards first, right? So would be a bad idea to buy a hd4670 now?



yes bad idea


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## RadeonX2 (Aug 16, 2009)

it's been a while since I bought my last Radeon card. Time to cross the red line!


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## LaidLawJones (Aug 16, 2009)

I will be cautiously optimistic about this launch. I have used ATI for years and have seen this hype before. ATI cards look fantastic on paper. Unfortunately, nvidia  looks fantastic on the screen. ATI is going to be first again, let's hope, at least ATI fans hope, that they will set the bar high enough that they can hold onto the top spot for more than a few months and not suffer another embarrassment of being beaten by something nvidia cobbles together using the year before last years technology.

I can finally upgrade from 3X3870


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## IINexusII (Aug 16, 2009)

LaidLawJones said:


> I will be cautiously optimistic about this launch. I have used ATI for years and have seen this hype before. ATI cards look fantastic on paper. Unfortunately, nvidia  looks fantastic on the screen. ATI is going to be first again, let's hope, at least ATI fans hope, that they will set the bar high enough that they can hold onto the top spot for more than a few months and not suffer another embarrassment of being beaten by something nvidia cobbles together using the year before last years technology.
> 
> I can finally upgrade from 3X3870



1 thing ati will definately win is the price and bang for buck compared to gt300 series im sure


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## AltecV1 (Aug 16, 2009)

IINexusII said:


> 1 thing ati will definately win is the price and bang for buck compared to gt300 series im sure



yea the GT300 is going to cost a fortune,but it will beat HD5000 by a good margine!!


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## LaidLawJones (Aug 16, 2009)

> 1 thing ati will definately win is the price and bang for buck compared to gt300 series im sure



I agree completely. 4870's are so cheap (low priced that is) that a person can crossfire a pair without a huge expenditure of cash. $350 for XFX 4070X2 or just over $300 to pair a set.

I would buy a 4870 except that my MB is SB600, does not always pay to be the first, and by the time I buy a new MB/CPU/GPU I might as well just put together a whole new system.

I am going to wait for about a month after the card is released to see what happens.


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## LaidLawJones (Aug 16, 2009)

A little off topic. I was reading the review of the new MSI 275 and am just wondering if anyone thinks the the new ATI cards will finally play crysis at 1920X1200 with settings near max and decent, not just playable, frame rates? Decent frame rates for me are 50 and above.


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## hat (Aug 16, 2009)

Haha, will we _ever_ stop asking the question "but can it run/max Crysis"?

In answering the question, looking at the jump from DX9 to DX10 in terms of hardware power, if the jump in performance from DX10 to DX11 is the same then yes, I do think it can max Crysis with decent framerates. 50 constant? Nah... playable though.


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## entropy13 (Aug 16, 2009)

hat said:


> Haha, will we _ever_ stop asking the question "but can it run/max Crysis"?



Of course we'll stop eventually. "but can it run/max Crysis 2?" will be the new question.


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## CDdude55 (Aug 16, 2009)

Awesome, i just hope Nvidia pushes out something good to.


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## legends84 (Aug 16, 2009)

CDdude55 said:


> Awesome, i just hope Nvidia pushes out something good to.



+1


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## H82LUZ73 (Aug 16, 2009)

Is it me or did most of you guys not see the Display port and HDMI port on the card ?Now they can still be under the $400 dollar mark and not pack the DVI to HDMI converter.Maybe get a free DX11 game for download.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Aug 16, 2009)

this is perfect! seems like my waiting has payed off after all


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## KainXS (Aug 16, 2009)

AltecV1 said:


> yea the GT300 is going to cost a fortune,but it will beat HD5000 by a good margine!!



we all know the GT300 will be faster, a new architecture and double the sp's, we all know

but since nvidia is only getting 20 - 30 % yields on the cores for the card you have to ask yourself, is it worth the wait, I mean wait by, you wait for it to come out, and theres still not enough cards to go around since the yields are horribly low.

I still think what largon said in the other thread is right, I can't see these cards having 1200sp's, I think that bit of rumor is wrong.


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## 3870x2 (Aug 16, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> What depresses me about all this is the fact not one of these GPUs will be utilized to its full potential. Why? Because every damn game coming out on the market by a major developer is in fact cross platform. As we all know a game is only as good as its weakest platform. In our case is the 360/PS3.
> 
> You guys that just bought a 4870x2 I would suggest you keep them. Its going to be years before they are strained.



I agree with you here mailman.  This doesnt go for all games though, computer only companies like blizzard, other activision teams, some EA teams, and several others (including the cry and unreal engines) will continue to melt faces


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## Mussels (Aug 16, 2009)

H82LUZ73 said:


> .Maybe get a free DX11 game for download.



i hope they do a deal with steam like the old orange box deal, throw in HL2: ep 3 and L4D2 coupons in the box or something,.


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## AddSub (Aug 16, 2009)

I hope this is not just empty hype as it was with Dx10 all those years ago. All we got out of Dx10 were handful of decent games that really didn't look all that better than they did in Dx9. (I'm looking at you Crysis) 

Instead of fancy feature-talk, I would be more impressed if they could list several studios and/or game developer shops they know of that will be *using* those features upon launch. Dx11 might be all-that and more, but if they can't get developers onboard and fast, then they might have a repeat of Dx10-adoption scenario and those "Evergreen" sales might not be that great. (Outside of enthusiast community, where 90% or more of the market happens to be.)


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## Easo (Aug 16, 2009)

Im looking forward to see its real power.


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## EastCoasthandle (Aug 16, 2009)

With the use of:
-Tessellation
-Multithreaded rendering
-Compute shaders
among others we (consumer) may not notice much at all.  This all is from a developers point of view IMO.  DX11 was never hyped about IQ as DX10 was with Crysis (for example). 
LOL


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## AddSub (Aug 16, 2009)

> With the use of:
> -Tessellation
> -Multithreaded rendering
> -Compute shaders
> ...



The last great IQ jump I can remember was from Dx8.1 to Dx9. I guess we will have to wait for Dx12 to see something like that again, or Microsoft simply might be taking a slow-and-steady approach towards DirectX evolution.


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## erocker (Aug 16, 2009)

There is no DX10. It was all a lie. Unless there are a bunch of games out there that require DX11, don't bother buying a DX11 card for the sake of having DX11. So far from the looks of it though, DX11 is going to be what DX10 was not. Quite a few developers are already on board. I'm trying to find/make a list...


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## Sapientwolf (Aug 16, 2009)

My bet is that the GTX 3xx cards are going to be faster than ATIs offerings.  However because they are getting released first, they are going to get reviewed well because they are going to smoke HD 4xxx and GTX 2xx and it's going to be this way for a few months (which is a long time for computer hardware).  Then when GTX 3xx hits the market it will be better, but ATI will adjust their prices to be extra competetive forcing Nvidia to adjust prices, then we'll be back where we are now, dirt cheap prices on top of the line units.  People will still buy ATI's 5xxx series an account of positive initial reviews once GTX 3xx is released.  That's my idea anyway.


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## GSG-9 (Aug 16, 2009)

erocker said:


> There is no DX10. It was all a lie.



Well I don't know about that but there is ABSOLUTELY no DX10.1


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## pr0n Inspector (Aug 16, 2009)

D3D 10 was never meant to make you say "OMG SO MUCH MORE EYE CANDY!!!111!".
Game devs just used people's unfamiliarity with D3D 10 to their advantage.


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## Millenia (Aug 16, 2009)

AddSub said:


> I hope this is not just empty hype as it was with Dx10 all those years ago. All we got out of Dx10 were handful of decent games that really didn't look all that better than they did in Dx9. (I'm looking at you Crysis)
> 
> Instead of fancy feature-talk, I would be more impressed if they could list several studios and/or game developer shops they know of that will be *using* those features upon launch. Dx11 might be all-that and more, but if they can't get developers onboard and fast, then they might have a repeat of Dx10-adoption scenario and those "Evergreen" sales might not be that great. (Outside of enthusiast community, where 90% or more of the market happens to be.)



The empty hype you got instead of fancy visuals was because most people unfortunately stuck to XP even with top-of-the-line DX10 cards, leaving us Vista users kind of betrayed. Pretty much all DX10 adaptations at the moment are quick hackjobs of the DX9 version, leaving it slower and merely slightly better-looking than DX9 mode. True DX10 mode SHOULD be faster than DX9, so you know the developers were lazy.

If most people, especially those with more than capable hardware would've migrated to Vista, we'd most probably have way better-looking games out there right now.

Thanks XP users, thanks a fucking lot


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## Exceededgoku (Aug 16, 2009)

Just so people know the next Colin Mcrae Dirt is going to be fully DX11 compatible (Dirt 2). And from the screens even the Xbox version is pretty, the Dx11 version should be insane!


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## GLD (Aug 16, 2009)

Yea! The launch may meen a new (old) 4870 or 4890 for me!


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## enzolt (Aug 16, 2009)

erocker said:


> There is no DX10. It was all a lie. Unless there are a bunch of games out there that require DX11, don't bother buying a DX11 card for the sake of having DX11. So far from the looks of it though, DX11 is going to be what DX10 was not. Quite a few developers are already on board. I'm trying to find/make a list...



so far we got this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX_11_support


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## AltecV1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Millenia said:


> The empty hype you got instead of fancy visuals was because most people unfortunately stuck to XP even with top-of-the-line DX10 cards, leaving us Vista users kind of betrayed. Pretty much all DX10 adaptations at the moment are quick hackjobs of the DX9 version, leaving it slower and merely slightly better-looking than DX9 mode. True DX10 mode SHOULD be faster than DX9, so you know the developers were lazy.
> 
> If most people, especially those with more than capable hardware would've migrated to Vista, we'd most probably have way better-looking games out there right now.
> 
> Thanks XP users, thanks a fucking lot



dont blame XP users!:shadedshu blame those consoles and theyre old and crappy hardware what can only run Dx9


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## wiak (Aug 16, 2009)

KainXS said:


> we all know the GT300 will be faster, a new architecture and double the sp's, we all know
> 
> but since nvidia is only getting 20 - 30 % yields on the cores for the card you have to ask yourself, is it worth the wait, I mean wait by, you wait for it to come out, and theres still not enough cards to go around since the yields are horribly low.
> 
> I still think what largon said in the other thread is right, I can't see these cards having 1200sp's, I think that bit of rumor is wrong.


well dual RV870 will smoke a GT300 and cost half? for amd to make hehe

a HD 4870 was  just around 80% the performance of a GTX 280, and cost half when it was released lol


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## 15th Warlock (Aug 16, 2009)

Single card rendering at 2560x1600? Well it was just rendering some tech demos but still, makes you wonder how fast these cards will be for playing real games taking A.I., physics,sound effects and what not into account...


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## Fiery (Aug 16, 2009)

EverGreen family GPU codenames...

Broadway
Cedar
Cypress
Hemlock
Juniper
Lexington
Madison
Park
Redwood

I have no idea which one is which though


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## KainXS (Aug 16, 2009)

AltecV1 said:


> dont blame XP users!:shadedshu blame those consoles and theyre old and crappy hardware what can only run Dx9



I blame 1 console, the 360, alot of developers develop games on the 360 and then port it right over to pc since the 360 uses a modified DX9 and just add an effect here and there and go like, hey its DX10 and its like a  for pc gamers in the end.

but hey, something is better than nothing you know

so developers now can cheaply cheaply port to dx9, but in the end they still have to add effects to get dx10.



wiak said:


> well dual RV870 will smoke a GT300 and cost half? for amd to make hehe
> 
> a HD 4870 was  just around 80% the performance of a GTX 280, and cost half when it was released lol



nobody knows that for sure, for all we know nvidia could have learned something the last . . . . .  like 3 times and won't rape peoples wallets

and we still don't know how the 5870 will perform


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## Nick89 (Aug 16, 2009)

I just got 2 4870's about 2 months ago, I'm not mad or worried because I wont be buying the 5000 series until prices drop.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Aug 16, 2009)

I can't wait till dx 11 comes around... so we can finally be rid of this "physx" crap. No game developer is going to kick themselves in the nuts by supporting physics processing that can only be used by one brand of card when there's an alternative. With compute shaders they could do all brands. Nvidia, Ati, and even Intel's larrabee will have to fall in line with this way of physics processing.


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## NeSeNVi (Aug 16, 2009)

DX11 is what I am looking forward... and Colin Dirt 2 with DX11 supportX)


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## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 16, 2009)

I've had my 4870 for over a year now, and haven't run across anything that can strain it (1440x900 probably has lots to do with that). But I agree with person above when they point out how the majority of games are just straight console ports, and so they don't even take advantage of beefier hardware.

So, I'll stick with my 4870 until the next round of games, cod:mw2, etc. Then I'll see if an upgrade is even necessary.


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 16, 2009)

Fiery said:


> EverGreen family GPU codenames...
> 
> Broadway
> Cedar
> ...



Broadway is the Wii so I doubt its that.


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## SK-1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Zubasa said:


> Well the leap from X1950XTX to 8800GTX then YEAH~



That's hardware,...I'm talking software. Like Erocker said, DX10 and 10.1 were a lie.
I'd love to see a huge leap in the hardware,...but playing current titles at 180 frames instead of 155 frames is just plain dumb/expensive. Plus, my e-penis is long enough ATM.


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## MilkyWay (Aug 16, 2009)

direct x 10 was just 9 with added features

direct x 11 looks brand new (not literal because it literally is brand new)


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## DrPepper (Aug 17, 2009)

wiak said:


> well dual RV870 will smoke a GT300 and cost half? for amd to make hehe
> 
> a HD 4870 was  just around 80% the performance of a GTX 280, and cost half when it was released lol



Obviously two gpu's will smoke nvidia's one but then same could be said that two GT300 could smoke one RV870. Cost irrelevant of course. Bear in mind that GT200 is just as cheap as RV700 nowadays.


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## 1Kurgan1 (Aug 17, 2009)

DrPepper said:


> Obviously two gpu's will smoke nvidia's one but then same could be said that two GT300 could smoke one RV870. Cost irrelevant of course. Bear in mind that GT200 is just as cheap as RV700 nowadays.



Cost irrelevant can do a lot. Bang for the buck is where it's at. Also hard to compare a GT300 and RV870 as sounds like the GT300 isn't going to make it in 2009.


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## DrPepper (Aug 17, 2009)

1Kurgan1 said:


> Cost irrelevant can do a lot. Bang for the buck is where it's at. Also hard to compare a GT300 and RV870 as sounds like the GT300 isn't going to make it in 2009.



It can but for those who don't take cost into consideration they won't buy it bang for buck. I always try buy the best card I can afford at the time.


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## to6ko91 (Aug 17, 2009)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> I can't wait till dx 11 comes around... so we can finally be rid of this "physx" crap. No game developer is going to kick themselves in the nuts by supporting physics processing that can only be used by one brand of card when there's an alternative. With compute shaders they could do all brands. Nvidia, Ati, and even Intel's larrabee will have to fall in line with this way of physics processing.



wow physix is a great thing and it is available on both systems (amd and nvidia) ... so whats your point ???


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## erocker (Aug 17, 2009)

to6ko91 said:


> wow physix is a great thing and it is available on both systems (amd and nvidia) ... so whats your point ???



PhysX will most likely go away with DX11. I think that is the point.


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## a_ump (Aug 17, 2009)

i actually wonder how much better the GT300 is gonna be. i know its going to have double the shaders...but they're different so idk if the fact that they're not simd anymore is going to increase or decrease performance. Either way, GT300 i can't see releasing till feb or late jan. Though if there are already yield results that must mean the GPU is already mostly complete. So it wouldn't surprise me if Nvidia does send GT300 cards out to review sites along with a paper launch to try and hurt ATI's headstart.


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## joey_sfb (Aug 17, 2009)

i sticking to winxp again for the first two years of win7 lifespans cause XP has everything i need. i don't buy hype just good PC games and their playable fps!!

I also tends to optimize my budget by buying a ATI 4870 for now as they give me the best fps for my money. Nvidia just don't deliver in term of best price to performance ratio.

If they do, I will switch on my next purchase. I am a Fan boy for my own wallet.




Millenia said:


> The empty hype you got instead of fancy visuals was because most people unfortunately stuck to XP even with top-of-the-line DX10 cards, leaving us Vista users kind of betrayed. Pretty much all DX10 adaptations at the moment are quick hackjobs of the DX9 version, leaving it slower and merely slightly better-looking than DX9 mode. True DX10 mode SHOULD be faster than DX9, so you know the developers were lazy.
> 
> If most people, especially those with more than capable hardware would've migrated to Vista, we'd most probably have way better-looking games out there right now.
> 
> Thanks XP users, thanks a fucking lot


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Aug 17, 2009)

same reason i got my 4830


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## PCpraiser100 (Aug 17, 2009)

Bring on the DX11 War!!!


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## soryuuha (Aug 17, 2009)

to6ko91 said:


> wow physix is a great thing and it is available on both systems (amd and nvidia) ... so whats your point ???



GPU-PhysX ain't available for AMD/ATI,


and most likely OpenCL+DX11 will shove PhysX away..


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## pr0n Inspector (Aug 17, 2009)

MilkyWay said:


> *direct x 10 was just 9 with added features*
> 
> direct x 11 looks brand new (not literal because it literally is brand new)



LOL


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## AltecV1 (Aug 17, 2009)

it is funny how Nvidia just throw money away when they bought Ageia


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## to6ko91 (Aug 17, 2009)

soryuuha said:


> GPU-PhysX ain't available for AMD/ATI,
> 
> 
> and most likely OpenCL+DX11 will shove PhysX away..



gpu-pysix is only on nvidia cards ... but I thought dedicated physix is always good no mather of the kind


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## trt740 (Aug 17, 2009)

Any performance numbers on these new cards? I wonder how it will stack up against my 295 gtx. Also Dx11 is going to take a while to be truly utilized remember how long DX10 took and it's only beginning to take hold now.


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## a_ump (Aug 17, 2009)

trt740 said:


> Any performance numbers on these new cards? I wonder how it will stack up against my 295 gtx. Also Dx11 is going to take a while to be truly utilized remember how long DX10 took and it's only beginning to take hold now.



nope , sadly that's what i thought this thread was gonna show a lil when i read the title. no performance numbers till sept 10th supposedly.


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## tkpenalty (Aug 17, 2009)

From DX9 to 10 there wasnt really much brought to the table, because DX9 could emulate what 10 could do anyway, or look similar. Hence why barely any companies produced DX10 titles. DX10.1 however brought some changes such as very efficient anti aliasing, and DX11 is again focused on improving performance.

That occlusion mapping thing however does one thing which DX10 cant; ensure that every object is affected by light within a designated environment in a realistic manner.  Tesselation is another thing which will be significant. It means no more imperfections or squareness in round objects, such as countours of a human face and body or the bodywork of cars, etc. '

For these reasons i see DX11 being adapted very quickly. 


I'm getting some feeling that Nvidia will most likely screw up the tesselation engine, or have one thats inferior to AMD's since AMD has more experience in this field.


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## EarlZ (Aug 17, 2009)

Looking at the so called rumored specs, the performance numbers are good and some are even double than the 4870X2's combined specs. Hopefully a single 5870 can perform 5-10% better than a 4870X2 else its a moot point.


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## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Aug 17, 2009)

ima smells plagued drivers


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## soryuuha (Aug 17, 2009)

to6ko91 said:


> gpu-pysix is only on nvidia cards ... but *I thought dedicated physix is always good no mather of the kind*



If you find any of latest Nvidia PhysX PPU dedicated card(not the old Ageia PPU card) that works with AMD/ATI Radeon card ,  please inform me, would love to buy it.


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## Mussels (Aug 17, 2009)

since the ageia PPU cards have terrible driver support now that nvidia bought them, and you cant run an nvidia card in the same system as an ATI for Physx in most situations, physx is dying. too many people are getting burned with it, so they're avoiding it.

Game devs wont make games that use physx fully, because then ATI users (and people with older Nvidia cards) cant play the game and it would lose much of its market who would otherwise play the game


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## newconroer (Aug 17, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> What depresses me about all this is the fact not one of these GPUs will be utilized to its full potential. Why? Because every damn game coming out on the market by a major developer is in fact cross platform. As we all know a game is only as good as its weakest platform. In our case is the 360/PS3.
> 
> You guys that just bought a 4870x2 I would suggest you keep them. Its going to be years before they are strained.




Depends on what you mean by "strained." It's true that in most applications, the GPU isn't being used 100%, or even 80%, but that doesn't mean it isn't capable of performing better when under such stress. It's primarily why they release new cards with simple core revisions and faster memory; as opposed to new architecture.

The problem is that as long as the data processing between CPU>RAM>GPU/CPU etc. remains the same, then no cards will reach their potential.


In a way you're right, a new GPU isn't going to stop dipping framerates by design, rather it will reduce dipping framerates by pure horsepower.


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## H82LUZ73 (Aug 17, 2009)

Bjorn_Of_Iceland said:


> ima smells plagued drivers



LOL this is a fan of Nvidia,I guess you have not even run the ATI card or driver since when....Maybe the 9700 pro...I can say for most guys that run both cards and just ATI ,The cat drivers are up there with Force ware my friend.

I bought my 4870`s so would skip the 5870 release seems i was right,Can not wait for Sept.12 to see performance numbers and such.


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## Mussels (Aug 17, 2009)

H82LUZ73 said:


> LOL this is a fan of Nvidia,I guess you have not even run the ATI card or driver since when....Maybe the 9700 pro...I can say for most guys that run both cards and just ATI ,The cat drivers are up there with Force ware my friend.
> 
> I bought my 4870`s so would skip the 5870 release seems i was right,Can not wait for Sept.12 to see performance numbers and such.



i'm going to wait for the '5770' or its equivalent - something with better power efficiency, around the time DX11 games start to rock out.


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## Kantastic (Aug 17, 2009)

I feel like we're awaiting the birth of a baby. I've never gotten so excited over a hunk of metal... AND I LIKE IT!


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## mdm-adph (Aug 17, 2009)

tkpenalty said:


> I'm getting some feeling that Nvidia will most likely screw up the tesselation engine, or have one thats inferior to AMD's since AMD has more experience in this field.



...which will in the end hold everyone back, since developers won't adapt tesselation if nVidia isn't using it correctly.  Kinda like how advanced web technologies that have been around for years (like SVG and native web video) haven't been adopted because Internet Explorer sucks ass.

Which is why I'm not bothering upgrading right now. :shadedshu


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## Valdez (Aug 17, 2009)

erocker said:


> PhysX will most likely go away with DX11. I think that is the point.



...or nvidia is going to port physx from cuda to opencl... which means hw physx for every card on the market.


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## a_ump (Aug 17, 2009)

i have to say i'd be really pissed if devs didn't fully utilize dx11 because nvidia can't cope. I'm not saying nvidia will fail with dx11 like they did dx10, but just a lil rage flare at the thought haha. I'm interested to see HD 5870 performance myself and will probly purchase one if its only $300 or so. Not because of Dx11 compatibility, i could care less bout that for at least another year. but because it's obviously going to provide better performance in current dx10 titles. want 2 c benchies!!!!!!!!!!


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## enzolt (Aug 17, 2009)

a_ump said:


> i have to say i'd be really pissed if devs didn't fully utilize dx11 because nvidia can't cope. I'm not saying nvidia will fail with dx11 like they did dx10, but just a lil rage flare at the thought haha. I'm interested to see HD 5870 performance myself and will probly purchase one if its only $300 or so. Not because of Dx11 compatibility, i could care less bout that for at least another year. but because it's obviously going to provide better performance in current dx10 titles. want 2 c benchies!!!!!!!!!!



nvidia is already doing dx10.1 and dx11 is fully backwards compatible with 10.1 so no worries and no need to be pissed.


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## a_ump (Aug 17, 2009)

already doing dx10.1? i kno they are with their mobile GPU's but yea they haven't bothered to incorporate it with their desktop GPU's. I think "nvidia is *finally* doing dx10.1" is a more suited sentence. I def have beef towards nvidia as imo, they killed dx10's potential by not supporting it. Games could run so much better if nvidia had gone with Dx10's origional specs(current dx10.1) that microsoft made.


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## enzolt (Aug 17, 2009)

a_ump said:


> already doing dx10.1? i kno they are with their mobile GPU's but yea they haven't bothered to incorporate it with their desktop GPU's. I think "nvidia is *finally* doing dx10.1" is a more suited sentence. I def have beef towards nvidia as imo, they killed dx10's potential by not supporting it. Games could run so much better if nvidia had gone with Dx10's origional specs(current dx10.1) that microsoft made.



oh sorry, thats what i meant. hehe


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## a_ump (Aug 17, 2009)

enzolt said:


> oh sorry, thats what i meant. hehe



haha yea, but i look for nvidia to go with dx11 specs this time around. Supposedly microsoft is going to have an iron fist this time around with their DX, whereas with dx10 they were like a grade schooler being told no by a high schooler(nvidia). Ah can't wait for new cards. 
WANT MOAR POWA!!!!!


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## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Aug 17, 2009)

H82LUZ73 said:


> LOL this is a fan of Nvidia,I guess you have not even run the ATI card or driver since when....Maybe the 9700 pro...I can say for most guys that run both cards and just ATI ,The cat drivers are up there with Force ware my friend.
> 
> I bought my 4870`s so would skip the 5870 release seems i was right,Can not wait for Sept.12 to see performance numbers and such.


I'll take your word for it then ati user


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## a_ump (Aug 17, 2009)

ATi drivers and forceware are equal, both work fine for my 8800GT when i had one, my 7800GTX, and now my HD 4870. never found a problem with either nvidia or ati's drivers.


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## PCpraiser100 (Aug 18, 2009)

Nvidia is lazy, ATI is commiting. Simple as that. when the 9800GT came around to replace the 8800GT for DX10.1 compatibility, I couldn't stop laughing.


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## to6ko91 (Aug 18, 2009)

PCpraiser100 said:


> Nvidia is lazy, ATI is commiting. Simple as that. when the 9800GT came around to replace the 8800GT for DX10.1 compatibility, I couldn't stop laughing.



I really started lmao was when the 8800gtx was changed to 9800gt and then the 9800gt changed to gts250 ...


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## enzolt (Aug 18, 2009)

to6ko91 said:


> I really started lmao was when the 8800gtx was changed to 9800gt and then the 9800gt changed to gts250 ...



im lmao-ing at you. 8800gtx was just 8800gtx. the 8800gt was changed to 9800gt and the 9800gtx/+ was changed to gts250.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

enzolt said:


> im lmao-ing at you. 8800gtx was just 8800gtx. the 8800gt was changed to 9800gt and the 9800gtx/+ was changed to gts250.



^ what he said. 8800GTX was a G80 chip, and they were never renamed.

renaming started with the 8800GT G92


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## to6ko91 (Aug 18, 2009)

enzolt said:


> im lmao-ing at you. 8800gtx was just 8800gtx. the 8800gt was changed to 9800gt and the 9800gtx/+ was changed to gts250.



Oooops  I must say I was quite sleepy at the time


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## Steevo (Aug 18, 2009)

What a thign to brag about. Glad they only renamed a few models, unlike ATI, who just made new models.....silly ATI.


Does it taste good?


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## a_ump (Aug 18, 2009)

PCpraiser100 said:


> Nvidia is lazy, ATI is commiting. Simple as that. when the 9800GT came around to replace the 8800GT for DX10.1 compatibility, I couldn't stop laughing.



but the 9800GT isn't dx10.1 compatible...none of Nvidia's desktop GPU's are dx10.1 compatible.

actually newegg lists this 9600GT by apollo as dx10.1, but i'd bet that is a typo as no other 9600GT or shit as i said desktop GPU by nvidia is dx10.1


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

wow, the egg screwed up there.

Only some newer laptop cards (and really slow ones at that) support DX10.1 in the nvidia camp.


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## Steevo (Aug 18, 2009)

many seem to forget that ATI is holding hands with MS to develop DX, nvidia just stands by and waits, then releases a behemoth and throws money at it to make it go. How long can they continue to do that in a volatile market? But there are those drinking the green kool aid.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

nvidia has been on the outside ever since MS broke up with them and started dating ATI.


The thing is, ever since the Geforce 3 nvidia has always lagged behind - shader model 1.3 when ATI had 1.4, shader model 1.4 when ATI had 2.0 - shader model 2.0 when ATI had shader model 2.0 a gazillion times faster  24 bit rendering when Nv only had 16 and 32 bit (and that didnt go well with the FX series)

SM3.0 was somewhat even, in my memory. i was busy in that era and didnt pay as much attention to high end hardware.

Skip ahead - nv won out with DX10, they came out first and had better DX10 support for some time.

DX10.1 - Nv didnt even bother. boo 

DX 11 - ATI seems to be taking a lead again. they want to be out first again, and they want the 'features lead' they've had with DX10.1 to extend to DX11


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## ShogoXT (Aug 18, 2009)

Skipping this generation.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

ShogoXT said:


> Skipping this generation.



i want to wait for the die shrink version


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## Steevo (Aug 18, 2009)

Mussels said:


> nvidia has been on the outside ever since MS broke up with them and started dating ATI.
> 
> 
> The thing is, ever since the Geforce 3 nvidia has always lagged behind - shader model 1.3 when ATI had 1.4, shader model 1.4 when ATI had 2.0 - shader model 2.0 when ATI had shader model 2.0 a gazillion times faster  24 bit rendering when Nv only had 16 and 32 bit (and that didnt go well with the FX series)
> ...



Yeah, Nvidia didn't make a product that no one really embraced, good business model while burning money making sure to take the lead in marginal performance.


ATI had better have some money ready to throw down when the NDA is lifted, and these start hitting the street, or else Nvidia is going to spin some BS and put a kink in their launch.


I bet W1zz already has four or more, and if not they aren't doing it right.


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## PP Mguire (Aug 18, 2009)

Right now DX11 dosent offer any real extra eye candy. What it does offer though is alot of performance increase and new rendering options.

Wolfenstein is the first DX11 title. We got to play it at Quakecon in their suite. 

DX10.1 is in fact real. It uses a new AA technique and a few tiny extra things that Nvidia wanted no part of because its extra eye candy that drops performance alot. Hawx is a perfect example of this. 

AMD was being stupid and boistrous in their suite though. Saying they are way ahead of Nvidia in the game ect ect. But when i talked to an Nvidia guy myself he gave me a few pointers and it looks like GT300 will be a margain ahead of ATI, yet again.


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## Steevo (Aug 18, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> Right now DX11 dosent offer any real extra eye candy. What it does offer though is alot of performance increase and new rendering options.
> 
> Wolfenstein is the first DX11 title. We got to play it at Quakecon in their suite.
> 
> ...



Nvidia is going to make another huge die, that is hard to cool, and will win performance, and cost a small fortune, but what is going to use the performance besides synthetic benchmarks?


I built with GTA4 in mind, and play it well at 1920X1200 at high settings. When these cards hit, or the 2GB variant of the 4890 come down in price I will upgrade, and still not have a game that can really stress my system.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> Right now DX11 dosent offer any real extra eye candy. What it does offer though is alot of performance increase and new rendering options.
> 
> Wolfenstein is the first DX11 title. We got to play it at Quakecon in their suite.
> 
> ...



you got 10.1 backwards.

10.1 was part of 10.0 that nvidia couldnt do, so it was dropped. 10.1's features are designed to ENHANCE performance - you ever wonder why DX10 has poor AA support, and many games where  AA+HDR just dont work at the same time? Nvidia is your answer, they couldnt do it so they forced it out of the standards.


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## PP Mguire (Aug 18, 2009)

Thats not what AMD said. 10.1 drops performance like crazy when AA is enabled.


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## trt740 (Aug 18, 2009)

stupid question is vista 64 going to be Dx11 compatible.


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## Frick (Aug 18, 2009)

trt740 said:


> stupid question is vista 64 going to be Dx11 compatible.



Everything else would be stupid imo.


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## CyberDruid (Aug 18, 2009)

I love watching this...GFX wars are only fun for the spectators...nothing sucks more than buying the "bleeding edge" only to find out that something ten times better is coming out next quarter


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2009)

trt740 said:


> stupid question is vista 64 going to be Dx11 compatible*?*



Yes.


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## Mussels (Aug 19, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> Thats not what AMD said. 10.1 drops performance like crazy when AA is enabled.



you definately read that wrong.

go google DX10.1 - one of its key features was improved antialiasing speeds over DX10


http://techreport.com/discussions.x/14707



> We have been following a brewing controversy over the PC version of Assassin's Creed and its support for AMD Radeon graphics cards with DirectX 10.1 for some time now. The folks at Rage3D first broke this story by noting some major performance gains in the game on a Radeon HD 3870 X2 with antialiasing enabled after Vista Service Pack 1 is installed—gains of up to 20%





> TR: What other image quality and/or performance enchancements does the DX10.1 code path in the game offer?
> 
> Beauchemin: There is no visual difference for the gamer. Only the performance is affected.





> So we have confirmation that the performance gains on Radeons in DirectX 10.1 are indeed legitimate.  The removal of the rendering pass is made possible by DX10.1's antialiasing improvements and should not affect image quality.


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## PP Mguire (Aug 19, 2009)

Mussels said:


> you definately read that wrong.
> 
> go google DX10.1 - one of its key features was improved antialiasing speeds over DX10
> 
> ...



There was no reading to it. AMD said it right in front of me. Go grab a 10.1 card and play Hawx with AA enabled. = lag


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## MomentoMoir (Aug 19, 2009)

curious to see were this discussion leads so im subscribe


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## erocker (Aug 19, 2009)

MomentoMoir said:


> curious to see were this discussion leads so im subscribe



You like watching your boyfriend get into arguments about theoretical lag using image quality enhancements? Interesting...

Subscribed!


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## PP Mguire (Aug 19, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> There was no reading to it. AMD said it right in front of me. Go grab a 10.1 card and play Hawx with AA enabled. = lag




Oh and just read the quotes. Thats Assassins Creed which if im not mistaken the "10.1" support was taken out almost immidiately. Which makes me believe that it was "theoretical" 10.1 support.


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## entropy13 (Aug 19, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> There was no reading to it. AMD said it right in front of me. Go grab a 10.1 card and play Hawx with AA enabled. = lag



I must have finished the whole campaign with lots of lag then.


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## MomentoMoir (Aug 19, 2009)

erocker said:


> You like watching your boyfriend get into arguments about theoretical lag using image quality enhancements? Interesting...
> 
> Subscribed!



ya i do any arguments i some what understand amuse me


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## entropy13 (Aug 19, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> Oh and just read the quotes. Thats Assassins Creed which if im not mistaken the "10.1" support was taken out almost immidiately. Which makes me believe that it was "theoretical" 10.1 support.



10.1 was taken out because it's "the way it's meant to be played"


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## PP Mguire (Aug 19, 2009)

But, i also wasnt talking about a game that my 7950GT could play either.


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## entropy13 (Aug 19, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> But, i also wasnt talking about a game that my 7950GT could play either.



But I'm also wasn't talking about a game that my GeForce 6600 could play either.


Ubisoft removed 10.1 in Assassin's Creed because Nvidia forced them to do so. Simple as.


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## Mussels (Aug 19, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> There was no reading to it. AMD said it right in front of me. Go grab a 10.1 card and play Hawx with AA enabled. = lag



not here. i get faster performance, as does just about every ATI user.


seriously... your information is wrong.

theres only one place i can see that reported differently, and thats tomshardware. and they complain of blackscreens and crashes with high AA in the game at high res - but oh yeah, they're running a 32 bit OS, so their results go out the window.

I'm looking for results now, or i'll just install the damn thing and test it.


http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2344301,00.asp


> With AA disabled, the Nvidia cards are faster than the ATI cards, despite lacking DirectX 10.1 support. It looks like DX 10.1 really pays off when you turn on anti-aliasing, though—the ATI cards are considerably faster there.
> 
> ...
> 
> Stormrise is unique in that it is the first major PC game to only support DirectX 10 or better. This, naturally, makes it Vista-only. It also supports DirectX 10.1, and like HAWX, doesn't really enable new features with the DX 10.1 path so much as use the extra features of the 10.1 API to render the game more efficiently.


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## a_ump (Aug 19, 2009)

dx10.1 definitely helps. at least it does for me in stalker clear sky

dx10.1
Avg: 46.389 - Min: 0 - Max: 63
dx10
Avg: 31.716 - Min: 0 - Max: 39

that's a major difference, one that i didn't even notice cause i've always played with dx10.1 enabled. i was only using 2xaa at 1280x1024 as at 1680x1050 with aa it lags too much. So to test with aa i set it to 2x and 1280. i used the same area and did exactly or as close to as exactly as i could get with each test btw


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## Mussels (Aug 19, 2009)

AA was 'forgotten' in the DX10 specs thanks to nvidia, requiring an additional rendering pass to be done to add AA over the top.

Since thats how HDR is done, the two conflicted (hence why HDR + AA doesnt work in DX10 games)

AA in 10.1 requires one less pass, so it can be used for other things giving a performance boost. the 'not quite accurate' reports say that 10.1 gives you 'free' 4x antialiasing - there is a performance hit, its just minimal (and far less than in DX10)


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## joey_sfb (Aug 19, 2009)

Tell Tomshardware editors about it. They will not enable dx10.1 on their Hawx benchmark due to the 30% gain over Nvidia dx10 card. Nvidia is a big advertising customer so I understand their stand.

This is the first time i heard it the other way around!!! HAHAHA



PP Mguire said:


> There was no reading to it. AMD said it right in front of me. Go grab a 10.1 card and play Hawx with AA enabled. = lag


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 19, 2009)

Heres a good breakdown on early DX10, and how it was changed, in the early stages, with M$ thinking of bringing it in in the SP1 patch. Good read
http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2007/03/03/optimized-for-vista-does-not-mean-dx10.aspx
 And we cant leave Anand out of the mix, as DX10.1 and AC was not looked kindly upon them on the way Ubi and nVidia handled it: 
"Reading between the lines, it seems clear that NVIDIA and Ubisoft reached some sort of agreement where DirectX 10.1 support was pulled with the patch. ATI obviously can't come out and rip on Ubisoft for this decision, because they need to maintain their business relationship. We on the other hand have no such qualms. Money might not have changed hands directly, but as part of NVIDIA's "The Way It's Meant to Be Played" program, it's a safe bet that NVIDIA wasn't happy about seeing DirectX 10.1 support in the game -- particularly when that support caused ATI's hardware to significantly outperform NVIDIA's hardware in certain situations."

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3320&p=6


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## MomentoMoir (Aug 19, 2009)

Pp is right the amd guy said that I was in the amd suite with him


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## Mussels (Aug 19, 2009)

the AMD guy might have said it, but several of us have claimed otherwise - and there are reviews and links agreeing.

Whoever that AMD guy is, he either has no clue about DX10.1, or you guys misheard him.


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## Steevo (Aug 19, 2009)

"Numbers Don't Lie"


Steevo, Right here, right now.





Write that down.


PP, did you enable 10.1 on a ATI hardware enabled card, or a Nvidia card.


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## a_ump (Aug 19, 2009)

Steevo said:


> "Numbers Don't Lie"
> 
> 
> Steevo, Right here, right now.
> ...



i've never heard of anyone being able to enable dx10.1 on a nvidia card.


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## Mussels (Aug 19, 2009)

i beleive he was talking about the AMD guy, that they may have misheard him and that he was saying nvidia disabled it because it ran slow on their hardware.


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## TheMailMan78 (Aug 19, 2009)

a_ump said:


> i've never heard of anyone being able to enable dx10.1 on a nvidia card.



I think he means in game. Kinda like when you start up Physx on an ATI rig everything goes to pot. It maybe the same thing with a 10.1 setting and Nvidia.


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## Steevo (Aug 19, 2009)

I am also curious how he has  Nvidia cards listed in his setup, and yet claims to have issues with 10.1 that is only available on ATI cards......


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## erocker (Aug 19, 2009)

Here's some video proof with Stormrise, Battleforge and Hawx:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7-_Uj0o2aI


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## a_ump (Aug 19, 2009)

i love the fact that devs are now starting to support dx10.1 in more titles. i'm thinkin dx11 won't take off till at least q2 2010, so i hope any games that come out from now till then have dx10.1


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## Steevo (Aug 20, 2009)

I guess I severly underestimate the number of Nvidiots in the world.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Aug 20, 2009)

Steevo said:


> I guess I severly underestimate the number of Nvidiots in the world.



sig worthy


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## roast (Aug 20, 2009)

Was so tempted to buy two GTX295's a couple weeks ago....
So happy I didnt now that the DX11 GPU's will be released soon. 
nVidia seem to be lacking lately...nice to see AMD previewing DX11 GPUs first...


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## trt740 (Aug 20, 2009)

I hope this card turns out great


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## zaqwsx (Aug 20, 2009)

PP Mguire said:


> There was no reading to it. AMD said it right in front of me. Go grab a 10.1 card and play Hawx with AA enabled. = lag




I was at that suite also and amd didn't talk about dx 10.1. That whole suite thing was to show off dx11 "tessellation" and how it dosn't create a performace hit with way more eye candy. AMD is ready to ship while Nvidia is lagging behind though the 3D stuff nvidia has was preaty cool. Next by the look of your sig you have an Nvidia card go grab an ATI and run a dx10.1 game you shouldn't get any performance drop if that was the case then why in the hell were they showing off Hawx and had it running on the vedor pc for everyone to play with.


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## Hayder_Master (Aug 20, 2009)

ATI game on , first DX11 cards , great


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## MomentoMoir (Aug 20, 2009)

Mussels said:


> the AMD guy might have said it, but several of us have claimed otherwise - and there are reviews and links agreeing.
> 
> Whoever that AMD guy is, he either has no clue about DX10.1, or you guys misheard him.



how do two people hear a person wrong and the AMD guy we talked to is one of the head of AMD btw I think we have video footage of it i'll check and if we do I'll post the video 

then maybe you'll believe lol =P


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## erocker (Aug 20, 2009)

MomentoMoir said:


> how do two people hear a person wrong and the AMD guy we talked to is one of the head of AMD btw I think we have video footage of it i'll check and if we do I'll post the video
> 
> then maybe you'll believe lol =P



What you heard doesn't matter. Some of us are going against your word due to actual experience with DX10.1, so I guess the guy at AMD was either wrong, or the words didn't come out of his mouth right, or your both misunderstood him. Most likely he said one thing and meant another.


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## MomentoMoir (Aug 20, 2009)

erocker said:


> What you heard doesn't matter. Some of us are going against your word due to actual experience with DX10.1, so I guess the guy at AMD was either wrong, or the words didn't come out of his mouth right, or your both misunderstood him. Most likely he said one thing and meant another.



ok well ill look at the video still and ill take what you said into consideration


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 20, 2009)

The very facts go against this. DX10.1 is a ATI exclusive DX model, since nVidia hasnt adopted it. 
I can understand that maybe what you heard confused you, but the links, usage of people here and other review sites show that DX10.1 offers from 10-30% increase in DX10.1 with compatable hardware.
Its shown in review after review. Maybe itd be good to hear that video again, keep what were saying in consideration, and then maybe youll figure out how whatever went wrong, went wrong


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## Mussels (Aug 21, 2009)

momento, lets look at it this way.

Person A and B are saying: "and AMD guy told us DX10.1 is a slideshow in games like HAWX"

Person C, D, E, F,G and all the way through to Z if you google it, are showing a 30% speed boost over DX 10.


I trust my own tests with teh cards right in front of me, over a second hand report from someone without a card who cant even test for themselves.


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