# Valve to Deliver Steam and Source on Mac



## btarunr (Mar 8, 2010)

Valve announced today it will bring Steam, Valve's gaming service, and Source, Valve's gaming engine, to the Mac. Steam and Valve's library of games including Left 4 Dead 2, Team Fortress 2, Counter-Strike, Portal, and the Half-Life series will be available in April. "As we transition from entertainment as a product to entertainment as a service, customers and developers need open, high-quality Internet clients," said Gabe Newell, President of Valve. "The Mac is a great platform for entertainment services."

"Our Steam partners, who are delivering over a thousand games to 25 million Steam clients, are very excited about adding support for the Mac," said Jason Holtman, Director of Business Development at Valve. "Steamworks for the Mac supports all of the Steamworks APIs, and we have added a new feature, called Steam Play, which allows customers who purchase the product for the Mac or Windows to play on the other platform free of charge. For example, Steam Play, in combination with the Steam Cloud, allows a gamer playing on their work PC to go home and pick up playing the same game at the same point on their home Mac. We expect most developers and publishers to take advantage of Steam Play."



"We looked at a variety of methods to get our games onto the Mac and in the end decided to go with native versions rather than emulation," said John Cook, Director of Steam Development. "The inclusion of WebKit into Steam, and of OpenGL into Source gives us a lot of flexibility in how we move these technologies forward. We are treating the Mac as a tier-1 platform so all of our future games will release simultaneously on Windows, Mac, and the Xbox 360. Updates for the Mac will be available simultaneously with the Windows updates. Furthermore, Mac and Windows players will be part of the same multiplayer universe, sharing servers, lobbies, and so forth. We fully support a heterogeneous mix of servers and clients. The first Mac Steam client will be the new generation currently in beta testing on Windows."

Portal 2 will be Valve's first simultaneous release for Mac and Windows. "Checking in code produces a PC build and Mac build at the same time, automatically, so the two platforms are perfectly in lock-step," said Josh Weier, Portal 2 Project Lead. "We're always playing a native version on the Mac right alongside the PC. This makes it very easy for us and for anyone using Source to do game development for the Mac."

Support for the Mac in Source and Steamworks is available to third parties immediately.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## zithe (Mar 8, 2010)

I guess I'd better go and buy a mac now! 




                                                                                          LOL.


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## freaksavior (Mar 8, 2010)

This is great for mac owner. I've wanted to play tf2 on my mac with my brother for a long time. 

Will i have to purchase a "mac specific" version? or can I use my pc keyed versions?


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## DonInKansas (Mar 8, 2010)

Look!  Mac is joining the 21st Century in more than just futuristic looks!


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## erocker (Mar 8, 2010)

Kudos to Steam for getting this done. Should make them a good chunk of money.


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## freaksavior (Mar 8, 2010)

^ This make me happy.


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## DrPepper (Mar 8, 2010)

This is brilliant news. Even though I'm not a big mac fan it's nice to see valve trying to bring mac gaming to the same level as windows.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Mar 8, 2010)

Kick. Ass.


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## t77snapshot (Mar 8, 2010)

DonInKansas said:


> Look!  Mac is joining the 21st Century in more than just futuristic looks!



 Yeah it's about time! Now I can play multi-player with my Mac buddies, but I will still blow them away with performance.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Mar 8, 2010)

I can use Steam at work!


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## DannibusX (Mar 8, 2010)

Good news for Mac owners! Bad news for me. Half my Mac jokes just got murdered by Valve.

It's a smart business move by Valve, so grats to the Apple fans.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 8, 2010)

Great news, now we just need to start seeing some reasonablely priced Macs that don't have shit graphics cards...

I wonder if the HD2600 in my iMac would even run TF2, though I am looking forward to at least counter strike, that should run.


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 8, 2010)

This is great for the simply fact it will almost instantly gain access to dozens of games they did not have before.  Good move on Steam's part and great for Apple users.


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## DirectorC (Mar 8, 2010)

This isn't a win just for Mac, either, remember that Mac has *nix at the core.  I wonder what usability in BSD/Linux could be like if someone hacked around with it...

Also, what gaming library will they use to deploy these games on Mac?  How did they do it for COD4 (A DX game)?


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## DrPepper (Mar 8, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Great news, now we just need to start seeing some reasonablely priced Macs that don't have shit graphics cards...
> 
> I wonder if the HD2600 in my iMac would even run TF2, though I am looking forward to at least counter strike, that should run.



I agree when the price comes down they will be took more seriously and when they have better GPU's they will be viable gaming platforms. 

As for the 2600 it should run TF2.


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## t77snapshot (Mar 8, 2010)

Now does this mean only games made by Valve will be playable on Macs?

@Dannibus

I totally agree on that one, over half my arguements with my Mac friends will be lost now.


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 8, 2010)

DirectorC said:


> This isn't a win just for Mac, either, remember that Mac has *nix at the core.  I wonder what usability in BSD/Linux could be like if someone hacked around with it...
> 
> Also, what gaming library will they use to deploy these games on Mac?  How did they do it for COD4 (A DX game)?



It will and OpenGL.


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## ZakkWylde (Mar 8, 2010)

> I wonder if the HD2600 in my iMac would even run TF2



Yep! It will for sure, and it runs with a very playable framerate! No worries there!


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## CDdude55 (Mar 8, 2010)

Yay, for Mac owners. Steam really is a great service.

Valve is at the top of my list as favorite game developer. They actually give a $hit about gamers while making money in the process.(a great combination)


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## Syborfical (Mar 8, 2010)

So how faraway is Steam for linux


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## Delta6326 (Mar 8, 2010)

sweet sense are school gave us all mac books i can play games woot!


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## warup89 (Mar 8, 2010)

Thats kwel, but that doesnt mean 100% of mac owners are going to be able to play the games, since most macs are graphically underpowered.


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 8, 2010)

Syborfical said:


> So how faraway is Steam for linux



If this really is based in OpenGL and not some weird licensed Apple crap cause they think everything should be made in house, about 1 step.  The beauty of this is Steam is a self contained program, so all games installed through Steam, exist within the Steam program.  

That basically means if they can get it installed and the connection to the internet working correctly, Linux is completely doable.


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## DrPepper (Mar 8, 2010)

warup89 said:


> Thats kwel, but that doesnt mean 100% of mac owners are going to be able to play the games, since most macs are graphically underpowered.



They can pretend can't they 

Some mac's can be upgraded so there is some hope in that field.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 8, 2010)

Anyone else see an iGame promotion soon?


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## panchoman (Mar 8, 2010)

TheLaughingMan said:


> If this really is based in OpenGL and not some weird licensed Apple crap cause they think everything should be made in house, about 1 step.  The beauty of this is Steam is a self contained program, so all games installed through Steam, exist within the Steam program.
> 
> That basically means if they can get it installed and the connection to the internet working correctly, Linux is completely doable.



it is based on opengl actually. source engine has had the capability for some time now.. you can run tf2/l4d in opengl mode with a command line of "-gl" 

 the hard part is porting the actual steam platform and game binaries etc to mac.. 

i'm sure linux isn't far away, since os x is based on darwin linux..


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## pantherx12 (Mar 8, 2010)

freaksavior said:


> Will i have to purchase a "mac specific" version? or can I use my pc keyed versions?



If no one has answered you yet, MAC OS-x is based on linux/unix type systems so you will have to get a mac specific version.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Mar 8, 2010)

sneekypeet said:


> Anyone else see an iGame promotion soon?



more like iNeedanexpensivegraphicupgrade


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## panchoman (Mar 8, 2010)

pantherx12 said:


> If no one has answered you yet, MAC OS-x is based on linux/unix type systems so you will have to get a mac specific version.



i highly doubt it, since steam games can be installed as many times as wanted on any computer.. as long as you can authenticate your account login with steam servers and your steam account has a valid copy of the game attached to it, you should be able to download and play it, regardless of os.. the steam play feature being introduced alongside this update supports the idea..


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 9, 2010)

panchoman said:


> it is based on opengl actually. source engine has had the capability for some time now.. you can run tf2/l4d in opengl mode with a command line of "-gl"
> 
> the hard part is porting the actual steam platform and game binaries etc to mac..
> 
> i'm sure linux isn't far away, since os x is based on darwin linux..



Not sure about this:

That is only true for Valve games and some games that were released on OS X, but most of the 3rd party games do not offer OpenGL as a option.  If Steam/Valve is serious about this, they will either have to start some serious negotiations or force DX10/9 games to run as OpenGL and that is what is going to take some doing.  Otherwise, just rebuilding the plateform to offer Valve games on Mac OSX would not take that much work, since as you stated, all Valve games will run in DX and OpenGL.


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## panchoman (Mar 9, 2010)

TheLaughingMan said:


> Not sure about this:
> 
> That is only true for Valve games and some games that were released on OS X, but most of the 3rd party games do not offer OpenGL as a option.  If Steam/Valve is serious about this, they will either have to start some serious negotiations or force DX10/9 games to run as OpenGL and that is what is going to take some doing.  Otherwise, just rebuilding the plateform to offer Valve games on Mac OSX would not take that much work, since as you stated, all Valve games will run in DX and OpenGL.



well of course.. basically what valve is doing here, is moving the actual steam platform to mac. this way, they can promote and host games made for macs. they are using their own games as examples of games that can be run on both platforms, but for all of the other games, it is up to the developers to come up with emulations/new binaries/etc... if they want to serve a larger consumer base..


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 9, 2010)

panchoman said:


> well of course.. basically what valve is doing here, is moving the actual steam platform to mac. this way, they can promote and host games made for macs. they are using their own games as examples of games that can be run on both platforms, but for all of the other games, it is up to the developers to come up with emulations/new binaries/etc... if they want to serve a larger consumer base..



Don't crush my dreams for Mac users with your logic and truth.  I was looking forward to killing pretentious Mac guys in BFBC2 because they annoy me (I mean that literally cause I work in customer service.  I know that does not apply to all Mac users.  Some are pretty damn cool, but the ones that call me are.....well pretentious douches).

I guess we just have to admit it now.  This will only bring Valve games to Mac.  Most other 3rd party games from the older library will be a no go, most of the cool indie titles are OpenGL anyway, so we get those, but the bulk of their library are DX platform only and 95% of them will not recode a damn thing to expand their market into a quote "small portion of the computer community and even smaller segment of the gaming sub-community."  

They will simply claim redevelopment and maintenance will cost too much to do with current titles, but may consider it in the future depending on how Valve does with this.  It is a dick move, but it is safe to let Valve test the waters before jumping in head first.

I also think Valve should wait and launch this with a new title like Half-Life 2 Episode 3 or Team Fortress 3 or Portal 2: Epic Awesomeness, because launching the platform with nothing new or fresh is just a bad idea.


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## panchoman (Mar 9, 2010)

TheLaughingMan said:


> Don't crush my dreams for Mac users with your logic and truth.  I was looking forward to killing pretentious Mac guys in BFBC2 because they annoy me (I mean that literally cause I work in customer service.  I know that does not apply to all Mac users.  Some are pretty damn cool, but the ones that call me are.....well pretentious douches).
> 
> I guess we just have to admit it now.  This will only bring Valve games to Mac.  Most other 3rd party games from the older library will be a no go, most of the cool indie titles are OpenGL anyway, so we get those, but the bulk of their library are DX platform only and 95% of them will not recode a damn thing to expand their market into a quote "small portion of the computer community and even smaller segment of the gaming sub-community."
> 
> ...



portal 2 is coming out  

companies building games in opengl will probably port for mac so as to become more popular and what not.. 

however, the big companies may or may not bite.. i think blizzard might venture into the mac market.. since they have like wow for mac etc.. 

one thing is for sure however.. with the steam distribution platform expanding to cover macs, we will be seeing more multi-platform games coming out soon..


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## -1nf1n1ty- (Mar 9, 2010)

FINALLY YES!!!!, im excited


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## pantherx12 (Mar 9, 2010)

panchoman said:


> i highly doubt it, since steam games can be installed as many times as wanted on any computer.. as long as you can authenticate your account login with steam servers and your steam account has a valid copy of the game attached to it, you should be able to download and play it, regardless of os.. the steam play feature being introduced alongside this update supports the idea..




What I mean to say is, it will be a special mac version of the program, if you already own the game then yeah it be fucked up crazy for steam to not allow you to download it for a different OS.

But then again they are a business, and businesses are evil sometimes.


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## DirectorC (Mar 9, 2010)

-1nf1n1ty- said:


> FINALLY YES!!!!, im excited



Maccie


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 9, 2010)

pantherx12 said:


> What I mean to say is, it will be a special mac version of the program, if you already own the game then yeah it be fucked up crazy for steam to not allow you to download it for a different OS.
> 
> But then again they are a business, and businesses are evil sometimes.



Not Valve.  They are neutral and misunderstood.

I mean, I still don't get your question, but yes this will be a special version of Steam for Mac users.  The games installed will, for the most part not be the special version; however, games that will not run in OpenGL as the graphical software interface will not run on Mac OSX.  Valve games already run in DX and OpenGL so it will be the exact same file system as currently in place.  Other companies like EA, THQ, and 2K games will need to restructure some of the game to get it to run on OpenGL.  

Actually altering the code properly will take time and money and I personally don't see any company volunteering to do that out the gate (as seen in discussion above); however, implementing a translator to just convert DX commands to OpenGL works, but at the cost of performance.  I can see the second wave of companies that decide to join Valve in this using this path for current and older single player games.

Sorry, wishful thinking.  Lets just leave this as Win for Mac, win for PC gaming (since someone still cares, thank you Valve), and hope others will jump on board with this whole heartedly in the near future.

This still seems wrong to me.  I mean OpenGL future development die some time ago.  Will this revitalize the effort to improve it and bring it up to date so to speak.  Mac uses OpenGL for games to an extent, but isn't their default graphics API something else?


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## pantherx12 (Mar 9, 2010)

"The games installed will, for the most part not be the special version"

Surely they would have to be other wise illegal copies of left 4 dead( and other games) would be playable on mac?


Its not just the DX/open GL etc I'm pretty sure OS-X doesn't even use .exe files.

( don't quote me on that, been years since I've used one )


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 9, 2010)

pantherx12 said:


> "The games installed will, for the most part not be the special version"
> 
> Surely they would have to be other wise illegal copies of left 4 dead( and other games) would be playable on mac?
> 
> ...



I am not sure Steam does either.  I mean the Steam platform is lauched with an .exe, but the games are not stored in a "normal method".  Instead of .exe files and folders, it creates icon links to directories and libraries within Steam.  So, like you I am not sure, but I don't think that will be an issue.


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## DonInKansas (Mar 9, 2010)

Hah!  iSteam


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## freaksavior (Mar 9, 2010)

pantherx12 said:


> If no one has answered you yet, MAC OS-x is based on linux/unix type systems so you will have to get a mac specific version.



Mac is unix based, not linux based and i have a mac. It would be nice if steam let you install it anyway on the mac without re-buying it.


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## PCpraiser100 (Mar 9, 2010)

Finally!!!


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## TheLaughingMan (Mar 9, 2010)

freaksavior said:


> Mac is unix based, not linux based and i have a mac. It would be nice if steam let you install it anyway on the mac without re-buying it.



We know.  Linux is based on Unix as well.  At the core, they are the same.  It just a different implementation.  Many parts, API systems, and general design of how the OS works are nearly identical.   So in large, going from Mac to Linux is not that big a jump because they are cousins at this point.


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## idx (Mar 9, 2010)

This is really cool , but i really don't think that Mac have any chance to get a good image quality or performance , this is why all pro computer users and hardcore players go to PC.
also there is no way to get the same graphics level of DirectX on OpenGL.


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## steelkane (Mar 9, 2010)

Intel cpu in a mac,, today's mac is a pc with mac OS. is this going to work only for today's macs that have intel cpu's or will it work on a true mac post intel cpu,, still great news for gamers


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## Wile E (Mar 9, 2010)

I wonder if graphics cards for macs will start to become cheaper if gaming gets more popular on the platform?


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## mysticjon (Mar 9, 2010)

didnt know Macs decided to become a "gaming" type computer. i mean with all there cheesy "i" products. there users think highly of themsevles just because they can afford an overpriced computer with the exact same hardware as a pc but the only thing holding them back is their OS. the physical appearance of a mac looks great, the inside ehh looks like they had a war inside. Companies like dell, hp, levano, etc etc are shit. i guess im so use to building my own, i hardly pay any attention to any computer companies out there.


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## btarunr (Mar 9, 2010)

If anything, this will help OpenGL. Mac's development as a gaming platform will make developers choose GL to minimize effort in porting their games to Mac. In due course that could also invite Linux ports. Epic with its Linux-Windows versions of Unreal Tournament (upto UT2K4) make it look a little too easy to cater to two platforms using the same disc. There's just two sets of 50 MB executable parts, same resources.


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## idx (Mar 9, 2010)

I don’t think that game developers will go for OpenGL just because of the 4% of users "Mac users around the world" , also I am sure that developers don't even think about losing that level of visual and graphics effects of the DirectX and go for OpenGL they know that all gamers don’t want to see new game with low graphics level they always looking for better graphics lvl. and now even Nvidia and ATI are ignoring the OpenGL and building their GPUs on DirectX11 and OCL spec  for GPGPU.


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## Melvis (Mar 9, 2010)

Good news for the simpleton users I mean Mac users


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## pantherx12 (Mar 9, 2010)

TheLaughingMan said:


> I am not sure Steam does either.  I mean the Steam platform is lauched with an .exe, but the games are not stored in a "normal method".  Instead of .exe files and folders, it creates icon links to directories and libraries within Steam.  So, like you I am not sure, but I don't think that will be an issue.




Hey man go to this directory

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common  ( assuming your on a 64bit os)

Then go into one of your game folders 

Steam games function just like all other PC games, so I'm fairly sure steam will have to make separate steam client/steam games for Macs.

But as I said I've not used one in years and years and have no idea what sort of file types they can handle these days.


So could be completely wrong


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## Marineborn (Mar 9, 2010)

now they can download solitare HAH!!


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## mdm-adph (Mar 9, 2010)

Wile E said:


> I wonder if graphics cards for macs will start to become cheaper if gaming gets more popular on the platform?



Mac graphic cards have already become MUCH cheaper over the past 2 years or so than they used to be.  I remember when the HD 3870 Mac Edition came out it was about the same price as the PC version.


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## Jansku07 (Mar 9, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Great news, now we just need to start seeing some reasonablely priced Macs that don't have shit graphics cards...
> 
> I wonder if the HD2600 in my iMac would even run TF2, though I am looking forward to at least counter strike, that should run.


 No problems. I've got HD3650 (basically the same card with smaller node) and the game is very playable. Mind you, I don't know how the Mac-version performs.


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## devguy (Mar 9, 2010)

Don't count out OpenGL so much.  First of all, the when developing games for the PS3, developers don't use DirectX.  I think the PS3 has an API of PSGL which is a customized OpenGLES API.  Either way, a lot of games are being developed without DirectX support.

Second, the Unigine engine has been written in OpenGL with all the same effects for Linux (I'm assuming MacOSx eventually).  Unfortunately, it still hasn't been released due to 1) a current lack of tessellating hardware from nVidia, and 2) a lack of good tessellating support Linux drivers from AMD.  However, that means that Unigine games have the potential for release also on non-Microsoft operating systems!

In the MacOSx graphics market, the best of the beAst gpu is currently the Radeon HD 4870 (not sure if there's a 1GB model, only 512mb I think).  From what I understand, even with Apple's ATI drivers, it handles Modern Warefare 1 really well (I think the most intensive Mac game).  Perhaps if Valve does well on Steam with OSx, we will see a release of Modern Warefare 2 on the Mac as well.


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## Initialised (Mar 9, 2010)

The two biggest and most successful app stores in the known universe combine. What a portal into the gaming world this is going to be, hopefully it will have Sony and MS's offerings left for dead and offer a counter strike to those who argue that PC gaming is dying.

Seriously though are we going to be tied into one PC like with iPods?


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## pantherx12 (Mar 9, 2010)

Initialised said:


> Seriously though are we going to be tied into one PC like with iPods?




Only true if you use apple software XD


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 9, 2010)

This is gonna be a lot of work for them.  The Source games are all based on DirectX.  They're going to have to convert it to OpenGL.


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## devguy (Mar 9, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> This is gonna be a lot of work for them.  The Source games are all based on DirectX.  They're going to have to convert it to OpenGL.



I think that partially already happened.  I mean, how do you think the Orange Box was running on the PS3?  It probably isn't as much work to convert from PSGL to OpenGl as from DirectX to OpenGl.


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## panchoman (Mar 9, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> This is gonna be a lot of work for them.  The Source games are all based on DirectX.  They're going to have to convert it to OpenGL.



source engine runs on both opengl and directx actually.. you can start source games with a -gl command line to run game in opengl mode.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 9, 2010)

devguy said:


> I think that partially already happened.  I mean, how do you think the Orange Box was running on the PS3?  It probably isn't as much work to convert from PSGL to OpenGl as from DirectX to OpenGl.


DirectX would probably be easier.  PS3 has limited RAM and proprietary CPU code which would be a PITA to replace on Mac.




panchoman said:


> source engine runs on both opengl and directx actually.. you can start source games with a -gl command line to run game in opengl mode.


You sure that works?  Most tend to think it was an experimental command they forgot to remove.  Ehm, the command is there but there is currently no code behind it.



> http://www.hlportal.de/?site=news&do=shownews&news_id=7724
> 
> Translated:
> 
> Half-Life Portal's Source engine developer Jason Mitchell confirmed that the OpenGL renderer is currently only in the Mac version is used, the PC versions are still using the DirectX interface.  [While this could] change in the future, currently there are no plans to do so.


Sounds like they are copying the source and converting the copy to OpenGL for Mac and they will continue to use DirectX for Windows.


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## Mussels (Mar 10, 2010)

sneekypeet said:


> Anyone else see an iGame promotion soon?



i can see comparisons between a $5K mac with a radeon 2600XT being compared to an intel system with GMA 950, and mac fans telling me how much faster the mac is than PC.


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## idx (Mar 10, 2010)

devguy said:


> Don't count out OpenGL so much.  First of all, the when developing games for the PS3, developers don't use DirectX.  I think the PS3 has an API of PSGL which is a customized OpenGLES API.  Either way, a lot of games are being developed without DirectX support.
> 
> Second, the Unigine engine has been written in OpenGL with all the same effects for Linux (I'm assuming MacOSx eventually).  Unfortunately, it still hasn't been released due to 1) a current lack of tessellating hardware from nVidia, and 2) a lack of good tessellating support Linux drivers from AMD.  However, that means that Unigine games have the potential for release also on non-Microsoft operating systems!
> 
> In the MacOSx graphics market, the best of the beAst gpu is currently the Radeon HD 4870 (not sure if there's a 1GB model, only 512mb I think).  From what I understand, even with Apple's ATI drivers, it handles Modern Warefare 1 really well (I think the most intensive Mac game).  Perhaps if Valve does well on Steam with OSx, we will see a release of Modern Warefare 2 on the Mac as well.



Both ps3 and xbox360 are using DirectX 9 GPU , xbox360 added some DX10 Features, PS3 RSX gpu is using PSGL (OpenGL 1.1 + Nvidia Cg) Nvidia Cg mainly built on DirectX lib's ,and like 90% of the games on ps3 are running on DirectX 9 not OpenGL.


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## Polaris573 (Mar 10, 2010)

Does this mean I can own Mac users using their one-button mice and chiclet keyboards on L4D2?


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## Mussels (Mar 10, 2010)

Polaris573 said:


> Does this mean I can own Mac users and their one-button mice on L4D2?



yes.

CS kiddies: OMFG HAX YOU SUCKZOR WTF GAY

Xbox live: $%^&IO$&**^%^&^*$^& (its all swearing and gay jokes)

Mac users: "dont shoot the poor rabies victims! they deserve LOVE!" "how do i melee? i have no 'right click'? "


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 10, 2010)

@Mac user: get a !*$&@#% proper mouse


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## idx (Mar 10, 2010)

Lets make it clear , even if they made a full customized copies of Steam games for Mac they have no chance to get a full gaming experience on Mac computers, none of Mac games will get even close to the PC level, mainly because:

1- Mac hardware is really weak in terms of performance (apple is only thinking about money when they built it) and this is an epic fail for mac users.

2-games on mac will use OpenGL, and OpenGL at this time is really embarrassing even for Khronos Group itself , at this time OpenGL is really nothing compared to directX11 and there is no way that Mac games can get the same graphics lvl and effects that PC games has not even close to it, even if the hardware can handle it.


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## Mussels (Mar 10, 2010)

idx said:


> Lets make it clear , even if they made a full customized copies of Steam games for Mac they have no chance to get a full gaming experience on Mac computers, none of Mac games will get even close to the PC level, mainly because:
> 
> 1- Mac hardware is really weak in terms of performance (apple is only thinking about money when they built it) and this is an epic fail for mac users.
> 
> 2-games on mac will use OpenGL, and OpenGL at this time is really embarrassing even for Khronos Group itself , at this time OpenGL is really nothing compared to directX11 and there is no way that Mac games can get the same graphics lvl and effects that PC games has not even close to it, even if the hardware can handle it.



as a total mac hater, i must say the following anyway.

1. only their video cards are weak. they use intel core 2 based systems nowadays.

2. no valve game uses DX11 - hell, none even use DX10 yet.


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## idx (Mar 10, 2010)

Mussels said:


> as a total mac hater, i must say the following anyway.
> 
> 1. only their video cards are weak. they use intel core 2 based systems nowadays.
> 
> 2. no valve game uses DX11 - hell, none even use DX10 yet.



No offense but you really have no idea about what you are talking about most of the big titles on Steam are DirectX games + most of the upcoming games on Steam are DirectX 11 , ofc there are some hybrid games that can work on both (directX or OpenGL) but it only go for OpenGL if the hardware doesn't support DirectX or if you chose that , here is some of the biggest Steam titles :

Lost Planet: Extreme Condition -DirectX 9.0
Bioshock 2 -DirectX 9.0 
The Orange Box -DirectX 9.0
Left 4 Dead 2 -DirectX 9.0
Team Fortress -DirectX 9.0
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 -DirectX 9.0

-some DirectX10 and 11 games:

Assassin's Creed II -DirectX 10.1
Mass Effect 2-DirectX 10
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat -DirectX11
DiRT 2 -DirectX 11
Battlefield Bad Company 2 -DirectX 11

ofc some of these games will run on OpenGL and older DX versions but this will be at the cost of image quality, and FYI there are many other DirectX 11 games coming soon for Steam including new versions of some current DirectX9 titles with DX11 support.

*source Steam website.


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## ToTTenTranz (Mar 10, 2010)

Mussels said:


> as a total mac hater, i must say the following anyway.
> 
> 1. only their video cards are weak. they use intel core 2 based systems nowadays.
> 
> 2. no valve game uses DX11 - hell, none even use DX10 yet.





Yeah but Valve can't keep using DX9 for all eternity. 
As soon as true DX11 engines start coming out and the next-gen consoles are announced, they'll have to update Source.


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## pantherx12 (Mar 10, 2010)

idx said:


> No offense but you really have no idea about what you are talking about  .




"no offence" but you clearly can't read.


Mussels said "2. no valve game uses DX11 - hell, none even use DX10 yet. "


This does not mean they do not use Direct X it means they use direct x 9.

*thumbs up*


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## Wile E (Mar 10, 2010)

Polaris573 said:


> Does this mean I can own Mac users using their one-button mice and chiclet keyboards on L4D2?





Mussels said:


> yes.
> 
> CS kiddies: OMFG HAX YOU SUCKZOR WTF GAY
> 
> ...





FordGT90Concept said:


> @Mac user: get a !*$&@#% proper mouse



Considering it's been years since Apple has used the 1 button fail mouse, I think your joke is also a little fail (and a little stale anyway).



idx said:


> No offense but you really have no idea about what you are talking about most of the big titles on Steam are DirectX games + most of the upcoming games on Steam are DirectX 11 , ofc there are some hybrid games that can work on both (directX or OpenGL) but it only go for OpenGL if the hardware doesn't support DirectX or if you chose that , here is some of the biggest Steam titles :
> 
> Lost Planet: Extreme Condition -DirectX 9.0
> Bioshock 2 -DirectX 9.0
> ...


They aren't porting third party titles, they are only porting Source titles so far. The third parties can port if they want to, but I don't know if any have officially announced support.

And I thought they added OpenGL to Source as well.


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## TIGR (Mar 10, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Great news, now we just need to start seeing some reasonablely priced Macs that don't have shit graphics cards...



That's called a Hackintosh.


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## devguy (Mar 10, 2010)

idx said:


> No offense but you really have no idea about what you are talking about most of the big titles on Steam are DirectX games + most of the upcoming games on Steam are DirectX 11 , ofc there are some hybrid games that can work on both (directX or OpenGL) but it only go for OpenGL if the hardware doesn't support DirectX or if you chose that , here is some of the biggest Steam titles :
> 
> Lost Planet: Extreme Condition -DirectX 9.0
> Bioshock 2 -DirectX 9.0
> ...



Bioshock and Call of Duty Modern Warefare are already running natively on the Mac.  It would probably take little effort to port their sequels.  Valve is already hard at work to release the Source Engine (and supporting games) for Mac (Half-Life/Counter Strike/Team Fortress/etc).  And from what I've read, Bad Company 2 might also be headed to Mac.

Now, if we could just move past the crappy Mac deal and get onto Linux, then we are talking!  Although, like everything: one little baby step at a time!


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## DrPepper (Mar 10, 2010)

TIGR said:


> That's called a Hackintosh.



I've been trying to get that to work for ages.


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## Wile E (Mar 10, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> I've been trying to get that to work for ages.



Doesn't play nice with most Asus boards in my experience. Usually have to set the cpu switch to 1. Single core is no fun. It works best with Gigabyte boards.


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## Mussels (Mar 11, 2010)

idx said:


> No offense but you really have no idea about what you are talking about most of the big titles on Steam are DirectX games + most of the upcoming games on Steam are DirectX 11 , ofc there are some hybrid games that can work on both (directX or OpenGL) but it only go for OpenGL if the hardware doesn't support DirectX or if you chose that , here is some of the biggest Steam titles :
> 
> Lost Planet: Extreme Condition -DirectX 9.0
> Bioshock 2 -DirectX 9.0
> ...



*insert generic insult here*

You see... you cant even read. i said VALVE games. not steam games. They are NOT porting steam games, they are porting valve games.. and not one single valve game is DX10 yet.

oh and btw, lost planet is DX10


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## DanielF50 (Mar 12, 2010)

oh yay. 

now mac fanboys are going to argue that macs are better for games, even though they clearly aren't and won't ever be :/


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## TAViX (Mar 15, 2010)

So basically only OpenGL games will run on Mac. I don't think you need 2 hands to count all the OPGL games available... 

But Counter Strike, Half-Life 2, Fortress and the zombie game all run in OpenGL also I think...Maybe this is what they intended for Mac...


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## btarunr (Mar 15, 2010)

No more pissing contests please.


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## TAViX (Mar 16, 2010)

btarunr said:


> No more pissing contests please.



But mine goes longer!!!!


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 16, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Considering it's been years since Apple has used the 1 button fail mouse, I think your joke is also a little fail (and a little stale anyway).


I wonder how long that "touch-sensitive technology" will last under the abuse of an FPS game.  In my experience, mice not designed for gaming tend not to last long when used for gaming.  Take, for example, Call of Pripyat.  I always put my guns in single-fire mode and feather the fire button for an extremely precise, rapid-fire usage.  Subconciously, hearing the click the mouse confirms the shot has been made which is confirmed by the sounds of the rifle in the game...

I hope Valve adds mice to their monthly hardware/software poll because it would be interesting to see how (un)popular the "Apple Mouse" is for gaming.


Video cards were already mentioned as being a major issue on the gaming front.  Just checking them out here are about all the options Apple offers across all products:
-GeForce 9400M
-GeForce 9600M
-1x GeForce GT 120 (9500 GT)
-2x GeForce GT 120 (9500 GT)
-3x GeForce GT 120 (9500 GT)
-4x GeForce GT 120 (9500 GT) -- this is the most "high end" offering by Apple on any system
-Radeon HD 4870 

Those cards (not so much the 4870) are going to strain to play any of the newer Valve titles at 1920x1200 or 2560x1600 resolutions.  It really doesn't matter how many GT 120s you stick in a computer, they (and the 9400M) are intended for 2D work, not 3D.  The 9600M passes as barely more than mediocre and the HD 4870 is dated (by HD 58## series).  Not good...


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## Wile E (Mar 17, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I wonder how long that "touch-sensitive technology" will last under the abuse of an FPS game.  In my experience, mice not designed for gaming tend not to last long when used for gaming.  Take, for example, Call of Pripyat.  I always put my guns in single-fire mode and feather the fire button for an extremely precise, rapid-fire usage.  Subconciously, hearing the click the mouse confirms the shot has been made which is confirmed by the sounds of the rifle in the game...
> 
> I hope Valve adds mice to their monthly hardware/software poll because it would be interesting to see how (un)popular the "Apple Mouse" is for gaming.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing that Apple is the supreme gaming platform. Just that they don't have 1 button mice. I do like the multi-touch mouse idea tho, but agree that it's place is not in gaming. Mine came with the Mighty Mouse back in the day. I hated it. It now has a Razer Salmosa on it.

And a 4870 is good enough for 1920x1200 on most Valve games.

But, what I'm hoping overall is, this move by Steam and Valve will see Apple getting more graphics hardware, and more up to date hardware. Would be nice to have a second viable gaming platform.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 17, 2010)

Wile E said:


> But, what I'm hoping overall is, this move by Steam and Valve will see Apple getting more graphics hardware, and more up to date hardware. Would be nice to have a second viable gaming platform.


NVIDIA and AMD have to author special firmware for Apple computers which is why their support is so limited.  If memory serves, they might even require extra BIOS ROM space on the cards themselves to make room for the large firmware required by the cards.  Its a lot of expensive work for AMD and NVIDIA so, unless there is a huge migration from Windows to OS X, I doubt the card availability will change much.

I can't see Valve/Steam causing that sort of migration.  Actually, I think Valve is taking a very big, expensive risk in doing this.  Not so much for porting Steam but for porting the games to work on Mac OS X but, they have to in order to give Steam the best possible chance of surviving on Apple computers.  We'll have to wait and see if it booms or goes bust.


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## Wile E (Mar 17, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> NVIDIA and AMD have to author special firmware for Apple computers which is why their support is so limited.  If memory serves, they might even require extra BIOS ROM space on the cards themselves to make room for the large firmware required by the cards.  Its a lot of expensive work for AMD and NVIDIA so, unless there is a huge migration from Windows to OS X, I doubt the card availability will change much.
> 
> I can't see Valve/Steam causing that sort of migration.  Actually, I think Valve is taking a very big, expensive risk in doing this.  Not so much for porting Steam but for porting the games to work on Mac OS X but, they have to in order to give Steam the best possible chance of surviving on Apple computers.  We'll have to wait and see if it booms or goes bust.



No, they don't need a special BIOS these days, they just need special drivers. Apple chooses to use a different BIOS in most cards tho, unfortunately. Like I said, I'm hoping that a larger company like steam can coax them into a more gamer friendly platform. We'll have to wait it out and see tho, I suppose.

It's generally the older ADC cards that had the larger than PC BIOS on them, btw.


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## ToTTenTranz (Mar 17, 2010)

Wile E said:


> No, they don't need a special BIOS these days, they just need special drivers. Apple chooses to use a different BIOS in most cards tho, unfortunately. Like I said, I'm hoping that a larger company like steam can coax them into a more gamer friendly platform. We'll have to wait it out and see tho, I suppose.
> 
> It's generally the older ADC cards that had the larger than PC BIOS on them, btw.




?
I've never heard of a PC videocard that *doesn't* need to flash a different BIOS in order to work in a Mac.


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## Wile E (Mar 19, 2010)

ToTTenTranz said:


> ?
> I've never heard of a PC videocard that *doesn't* need to flash a different BIOS in order to work in a Mac.



Re-read my post. I said they don't need to have the special BIOS anymore, but Apple generally chooses to use one anyway. You can use a standard PC card with custom drivers, btw. Only the older ADC cards "needed" the special larger BIOS.


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## CDdude55 (Mar 19, 2010)

The source engine is much more CPU dependent, it doesn't put much of a strain on the GPU so much, i maxed out L4D, TF2, Portal, all Half-Life's etc on an 8600 GTS 256MB. But was backed up by a QX6700 which did most of the work load and kept my frames amazingly high. Now ya, you could say its because of my res(1440x900) i'd take more CPU power in general, but its mainly the fact that there games aren't very hard to max on a rig with a shitty video card.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Those cards (not so much the 4870) are going to strain to play any of the newer Valve titles at 1920x1200 or 2560x1600 resolutions.  It really doesn't matter how many GT 120s you stick in a computer, they (and the 9400M) are intended for 2D work, not 3D.  The 9600M passes as barely more than mediocre and the HD 4870 is dated (by HD 58## series).  Not good...



Just because the 4 series is a year or so older doesn't automatically make it irreverent and obsolete.


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## Mussels (Mar 19, 2010)

CDdude55 said:


> The source engine is much more CPU dependent, it doesn't put much of a strain on the GPU so much, i maxed out L4D, TF2, Portal, all Half-Life's etc on an 8600 GTS 256MB. But was back up by a QX6700 which did most of the work load and kept my frames amazingly high. Now ya, you could say its because of my res(1440x900) i'd take more CPU power in general, but its mainly the fact that there games aren't very hard to max on a rig with a shitty video card.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because the 4 series is a year or so older doesn't automatically make it irreverent and obsolete.



indeed. a single 4870 can max every valve game at 1080p with no struggle at all.


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## ToTTenTranz (Mar 19, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Re-read my post. I said they don't need to have the special BIOS anymore, but Apple generally chooses to use one anyway. You can use a standard PC card with custom drivers, btw. Only the older ADC cards "needed" the special larger BIOS.




So it's either re-flashed BIOS or hacked drivers...

Still not that good, is it?


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## Solaris17 (Mar 19, 2010)

read title as something to deliver dreams. and I was like omfg people are delivering dreams this is nuts tech.

/ O/T


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## Wile E (Mar 20, 2010)

ToTTenTranz said:


> So it's either re-flashed BIOS or hacked drivers...
> 
> Still not that good, is it?



You're missing the point of my posts. If this causes enough stir in the Apple community, Apple may make the platform more gamer friendly. Maybe they'll quit with the special BIOSes, or maybe they'll give us drivers to handle more cards. It's not like they actually need the special BIOSes anyway. They just choose to use them to lock us into specific hardware.


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## tkpenalty (Mar 20, 2010)

now there's a reason to buy macs LOL


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