# Ryzen 3000 on B450/X470



## Midiamp (Apr 17, 2019)

The Ryzen 3000 is just around the corner, and about the exact moment the Ryzen 2000 is coming about last year, I asked  whether my old motherboard (B350) can support the Ryzen 2000.

Obviously, upgrading to the B450 and X470 last year is a no brainer, better memory support and better VRMs are the reason I'm upgrading from B350 to my current B450 motherboard. There's also a slight tick of performance boost coming from the Asrock AB350 ITX to MSI B450M in the form of higher XFR running stock (averaging 4.0 GHz vs 3.9 GHz).

However, comes X570 and B550 (if AMD naming is consistent) should "no motherboard upgrade necessary" can be realized? 

I guess all of you probably already know the rumors about Ryzen 9 having 135 Watts of TDP, and just this morning there's news about Ryzen 3000 won't be supported on older MSI boards. Yes MSI swiftly stated that it won't be the case, yet they come up with compatibility list with several missing B350/X370 support.

AM4 is just a socket, it can be as forward compatible as AMD wish, but obviously power delivery components will say otherwise. Buildzoids rambles about not recommending 2700X on some low end motherboards. I don't know what happened if we do so, but judging from his hair (joking aside), he know what he's talking about.

Just curious if true, will the 135 watts Ryzen 9 runs 1:1 on X470 compared to X570, theoretically off course.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

Midiamp said:


> Yes MSI swiftly stated that it won't be the case, yet *they come up with compatibility list with several missing* B350/X370 support.


Yes that's because many of those motherboards can't handle the higher end Ryzen 3xxx even at stock & *MSI won't risk blowing them up*, due to user stupidity, & *then honoring warranties*. For instance 2700x OCed, if your MB can handle that it'll likely handle most Ryzen 3xxx at stock - anything above (i.e. OCed) you'll have to wait for reviews to see max power draw & temps.


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

The power delivery is not the issue, you can overclock current chips such that they go way beyond their default power envelope anyway. The restrictions (if that will be the case) will come from other places.

You can plop a 2700X in the cheapest B350 board out there can you not, why would that stop them now ?


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## HTC (Apr 17, 2019)

*Supposedly*, Ryzen 3000 up to 8c / 16t should work just fine @ stock with B450 / X470 boards *after* BIOS updates: the higher core CPUs *may* not work, *possibly* due to VRM issues. B450 / X470 boards that come with beefier VRM section already *may be able* to support higher core CPUs.

Similarly to what happened to Zen+ CPUs using B350 / X370 boards:




Stuff supported by Zen 2 CPUs that *require* B550 / X570 boards to be enabled obviously wont work, just like Precision Boost Override doesn't work for a 2700X when used with a B350 / X370 board.

More details are unknown @ this time.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

Because there's a hard limit on 2700x clocks & therefore power draw. Chances are Rzyen 3xxx will easily breeze through 4.5GHz & possibly exceed 5GHz once OCed, a 16 core monstrosity isn't nearly the same beast as 2700x even on a lowly B350 likewise an OCed 8 core 3xxx chip.


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

Restricting CPU use because of VRMs will never happen for one simple reason : *manufactures would like to keep the ability to use shitty VRMs no matter the board/chipset/price.*

How else are they going to try and rip you off with subpar components and VRM assemblies on expensive boards ?


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

(not) restricting them for future CPUs? You give them far too much credit. Even in the era of LGA 775 or FX 9590 not all motherboards ran the top end chips.


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

FX 9590 came with a TDP that was pretty much double compared to 8xxx chips. No wonder restrictions were placed, today that's not the case.


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## HTC (Apr 17, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Restricting CPU use because of VRMs will never happen for one simple reason : *manufactures would like to keep the ability to use shitty VRMs no matter the board/chipset/price.*
> 
> How else are they going to try and rip you off with subpar components and VRM assemblies on expensive boards ?



That depends: if Zen 2 CPUs require beefier VRM sections to *work @ stock* to begin with, chances are they'll restrict all those boards that have "skipped" this part mainly because they could face RMA issues should users attempt to install Zen 2 CPUs and damage board / CPU because of it. You can be sure manufactures are looking @ covering their behinds with this type of thing.

I'm expecting all Zen 2 CPUs up to 8c / 16t to work just fine, not only with B450 / X470 but also with *most* B350 / X370. It's the higher core CPUs that will likely have further restrictions.


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## las (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Because there's a hard limit on 2700x clocks & therefore power draw. Chances are Rzyen 3xxx will easily breeze through 4.5GHz & possibly exceed 5GHz once OCed, a 16 core monstrosity isn't nearly the same beast as 2700x even on a lowly B350 likewise an OCed 8 core 3xxx chip.



Get ready to be disappointed.

I will be impressed if 4.5 is happening on all cores, on avg.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> FX 9590 came with a TDP that was pretty much double compared to 8xxx chips. No wonder restrictions were placed, today that's not the case.


Right about the FX, the core 2 quads were also restricted on lower end boards *IIRC*.


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## Ebo (Apr 17, 2019)

I just dont understand why people speculate like this ?
You will know soon enough when CPU and chipset have been released and tested. All speculations is just blowing smoke up peoples backside.


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

HTC said:


> That depends: if Zen 2 CPUs require beefier VRM sections to *work @ stock* to begin with, chances are they'll restrict all those boards that have "skipped" this part mainly because they could face RMA issues should users attempt to install Zen 2 CPUs and damage board / CPU because of it.



I'll have to repeat myself to emphasize what I already said.

You can already put a 2700X in the shittiest 3-phase A320 board, *can you not* ? They faced the same RMA issues, it's the same thing, why would it change now.

I can push my 1700X to 170W easily on my cheap B450 board. The situation in real life isn't as bleak as it seems on paper, they know damn well the CPUs that people are going to use can cause the boards to go "out of spec" regularly. They factor all of this in anyway.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

las said:


> *Get ready to be disappointed.*
> 
> I will be impressed if 4.5 is happening on all cores, on avg.


You seem to be in a good mood recently, did Intel make you "an offer you cannot refuse" or are you just passing by?





Vya Domus said:


> I can push my 1700X to 170W easily on my cheap B450 board. The situation in real life isn't as bleak as it seems on paper, they know damn well the CPUs that people are going to use can cause the boards to go "out of spec" regularly. They factor all of this in anyway.


And this why I said they also have to factor in OC, would you hazard to guess the power consumption of an OCed Zen 2 octa core or 16 core?


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> factor in OC, would you hazard to guess the power consumption of an OCed Zen 2 octa core or 16 core?



Sure, probably not much more than the current chips. 170-180W. Power consumption doesn't scale linearly with core count, you might expect a 16 core Zen 2 chip to use some crazy amount of power once overclocked but many are going to be surprised. This isn't a Skylake-X 16 core.

But we still have no clue if 16 core CPUs are actually going to be a thing upon initial launch. It may very well be the case they'll wait till next year and drop another chipset/socket then.


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## IceShroom (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Yes that's because many of those motherboards can't handle the higher end Ryzen 3xxx even at stock & *MSI won't risk blowing them up*, due to user stupidity, & *then honoring warranties*. For instance 2700x OCed, if your MB can handle that it'll likely handle most Ryzen 3xxx at stock - anything above (i.e. OCed) you'll have to wait for reviews to see max power draw & temps.


If B350/X370 has power dilivery issue, then why not list sometingh like support upto 95W TDP CPU.
ASrocks X399 Phantom 6 has less powerful VRM than other X399 boards, as such Asrock listed that board will support upto 180W TDP CPU.
*The money MSI wasted putting RGB on those board should have gone for better VRM component.*


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Sure, probably not much more than the current chips. 170-180W.


2700x doesn't reach anywhere near 170 or 180W even when OCed, so they'll have to over-provision to the extent of 50% (or more) as compared to OCed 2700x max power draw.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Similar to FX9590 vs OCed FX 81xx support?


IceShroom said:


> If B350/X370 has power dilivery issue, then why not list sometingh like support upto 95W TDP CPU.


They probably don't have all zen2 CPUs in hand atm.


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

Those figures are for stock, not overclocked.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

I know & look what the power consumption is, compared to Intel & even some other AMD chips. OCed it's still nowhere near 180w, I'll see if I can find OCed figures but apart from Toms there aren't too many others which measure just the CPU power consumption.


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## las (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> You seem to be in a good mood recently, did Intel make you "an offer you cannot refuse" or are you just passing by?



My mood is always fine  2nd gen does not even do 4.2 on average and you expect 16 cores to do 5  wakey wakey.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

If it can reach 5GHz on a single core, chances are it could do 5GHz on all 16 without exotic cooling. Though it'll still need a heavy duty WC to achieve that, it also depends on how good this 7nm process is. *Cautiously* optimistic - I think that's the word. I know too many ifs & buts however that's what speculative *prediction* is all about, where would we be today if not for *speculation*


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## newtekie1 (Apr 17, 2019)

Interesting how MSI sneakily let the cat slip that not all of the older motherboard will support new processors, and no one really picked up on it...


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## las (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> If it can reach 5GHz on a single core, chances are it could do 5GHz on all 16 without exotic cooling. Though it'll still need a heavy duty WC to achieve that, it also depends on how good this 7nm process is. *Cautiously* optimistic - I think that's the word.



Who says it can? Think of me in 4-6 months when you see Zen 2 maxing out around 4.5 GHz  I expect Zen 2 to hit an OC Wall like 1000 and 2000 series. Regardless of cooling you'll max out around the same speed, +/- 100 MHz.

This does not mean it will be bad. 8-16 cores at 4.5 GHz is very respectable on top of improved IPC etc. It will be competitive.
5 GHz is way too optimistic. It is simply not going to happen. _Maybe_ the best samples will do that, with Zen 3 at 7nm+ or 5nm, in 2020.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

No one said *it can* atm - some of us are hoping, others predicting, there are still those who're hoping it doesn't reach 5GHz especially from team *Icy blue*. So unless you have a Zen2 sample in your hand all you can do is *speculate*.


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## las (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> No one said *it can* atm - some of us are hoping, others predicting, there are still those who're hoping it doesn't reach 5GHz especially from team *Icy blue*. So unless you have a Zen2 sample in your hand all you can do is *speculate*.



We can all dream. My estimation is closer to reality tho.

How can you really expect a 100% increase in core count to also up clocks by almost 1 GHz?

7nm TSMC is not magic. All I'm telling you is to lower your expectations. You are bound to be disappointed with those hopes. Again, think back on this thread in 4-6 months when Zen 2 release for the masses.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

The 100% core count increase has little to do with anything else but the *chiplets* coming home to roost. Secondly the clock speed increase is 0.6~0.7 GHz since some 2700x can do 4.3GHz all core once OCed. That's less than 20% increase in clock speeds.

As for 7nm TSMC, can't say where it'll land however clock speeds are dependent on uarch, process node as well as some other factors. I will be disappointed if it doesn't reach 5GHz but computer hardware isn't something I fret over outside forums & geek talk.


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## TheLostSwede (Apr 17, 2019)

So here's the thing, AMD is only launching one chipset, the X570. There's no lower-end chipset launching  with the 3000-series.
As such, it's a pretty given that the new chips will work with the B450, just with a reduced feature set, i.e. no PCIe 4.0 (except maybe on the first x16 slot).
PCIe 4.0 is tricky stuff and it requires extra signal boosters/re-drivers and these are costly. As such, expect two different types of X570 boards as well, one set with full PCIe 4.0 support and one with limited support, as the board makers want to offer some more affordable boards and will do so by not including one of two signal boosters/re-drivers.
Make what you want of this.


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## las (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> The 100% core count increase has little to do with anything else but the *chiplets* coming home to roost. Secondly the clock speed increase is 0.6~0.7 GHz since some 2700x can do 4.3GHz all core once OCed. That's less than 20% increase in clock speeds.
> 
> As for 7nm TSMC, can't say where it'll land however clock speeds are dependent on uarch, process node as well as some other factors. I will be disappointed if it doesn't reach 5GHz but computer hardware isn't something I fret over outside forums & geek talk.



"Some" being the keyword here. Others max out at 4.1. Avg is 4.15 or so.

1st gen did 4 GHz on avg. Many people settled with 3.8-3.9.

But you expect a 100% core increase + 850 MHz from 2nd gen / 2000 series


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm not getting your math, we are talking about OC - never guaranteed & never the same across the board, so why do you keep bringing up 100% core count increase & 0.6-0.7 GHz clock speed increase as tied to each other? The Zen+ clock speed limit was ~4.4 GHz assuming we get the next iteration up to 5 GHz or higher, that'd be the limit. The 16 core chip only results in higher power consumption, it isn't a speed breaker for clock speeds as TR & TR2 have shown us.


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## las (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> I'm not getting your math, we are talking about OC - never guaranteed & never the same across the board, so why do you keep bringing up 100% core count increase & 0.6-0.7 GHz clock speed increase as tied to each other? The Zen+ clock speed limit was ~4.4 GHz assuming we get the next iteration up to 5 GHz or higher, that'd be the limit. The 16 core chip only results in higher power consumption, it isn't a speed breaker for clock speeds as TR & TR2 have shown us.



Pretty much no Zen+ chips hits 4.4. And most are only bench-stable, if even. Will crash during burn-in.

It's as rare as hitting 5.4-5.5 GHz on 8700K with no AVX offset. Because, it happends. Even rock-solid.

Because more cores makes it harder to run high clocks. Nothing new here.

AMD's focus is scalability and core-count. They are after the enterprise market. The end. This is why clocks are mediocre across the board. It was never the focus.


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## R0H1T (Apr 17, 2019)

las said:


> Pretty much no Zen+ chips hits 4.4. *And most are only bench-stable*, if even. Will crash during burn-in.
> 
> It's as rare as hitting 5.4-5.5 GHz on 8700K with no AVX offset. Because, it happends. Even rock-solid.
> 
> *Because more cores makes it harder to run high clocks*. Nothing new here.


That's why I said 4.4 is the* wall*, though I have seen some posts online claiming that speed. No more cores automatically doesn't make it harder especially for *chiplets*, that theory is truer for monolithic dies like Intel.

Not zen, ryzen & certainly not *zen2* - also do you not remember how well TR clocks, it's actually restricted by a TDP wall.


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## Vya Domus (Apr 17, 2019)

Zen 2 chiplet is smaller than Zen 1 chip  => better chance of clocking higher.

In other words it's not just the node itself that allows for higher clocks it's also the fact that AMD can bin these chips more effectively.


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## Midiamp (Apr 17, 2019)

Thanks all for the replies, I don't want to ruffle any feathers really. It's just that the premise of AM4 forward compatibility is quite dangerous to be taken literally. I occasionally moonlight as a system builder for families and friends. Thankfully they never have any upgrade intentions, so any parts that I chose are the best of what they can utilize in relation with the budget.

Some have been asking whether my AMD build recommendation today can be updated to Ryzen 3000... And frankly I don't know. Especially not after the MSI Ryzen 3000 backward compatibility reddit thread that slowly going mainstream. The first gen B350 and X370 VRM issue and memory compatibility also worried me. So the true test of AM4 forward compatibility starts with B450 and X470 really.


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## IceShroom (Apr 17, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> They probably don't have all zen2 CPUs in hand atm.


Zen2 is luanching within 3-4 months and Motherboard manufacture dont have sample. 
Motherboard manufacture already has sample and some Zen2 cpu will draw less power than a R5 2600. 
MSI dont want to support Zen2 on X370/B350 and want to give bad name to AMD. Thats plain and simple.


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## TheLostSwede (Apr 18, 2019)

IceShroom said:


> Zen2 is luanching within 3-4 months and Motherboard manufacture dont have sample.
> Motherboard manufacture already has sample and some Zen2 cpu will draw less power than a R5 2600.
> MSI dont want to support Zen2 on X370/B350 and want to give bad name to AMD. Thats plain and simple.



Sorry to be the bearer or good news, but it's launching next month. Well, at least on paper...
Boards will be on display at Computex, but if they'll be fully working or not by then, is a different matter.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 18, 2019)

Just get a Top Notch board whether X370, B450, X470


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## gxss (Apr 28, 2019)

I care about VGA compatibility，200ge cannot use dvi.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 28, 2019)

gxss said:


> I care about VGA compatibility，200ge cannot use dvi.



But it can use displayport, a displayport to vga adapter works


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## flmatter (Apr 28, 2019)

IceShroom said:


> MSI dont want to support Zen2 on X370/B350 and want to give bad name to AMD. Thats plain and simple.


Stop spreading the lie, that has been proven wrong and MSI has apologized for the actions of one person that did not know better.


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## IceShroom (Apr 28, 2019)

flmatter said:


> Stop spreading the lie, that has been proven wrong and MSI has apologized for the actions of one person that did not know better.


This is not the first time a MSI support person show thats kind of attitude towards AMD products.
The statement of MSI's CEO tells, MSI dont have interest making AMD products but AMD putting gun on their head to make AMD product.
Here is MSI CEO's statement on Tomshardware : https://www.tomshardware.com/news/msi-ceo-interview-intel-shortage-amd,38473.html


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## mstenholm (Apr 28, 2019)

IceShroom said:


> This is not the first time a MSI support person show thats kind of attitude towards AMD products.
> The statement of MSI's CEO tells, MSI dont have interest making AMD products but AMD putting gun on their head to make AMD product.
> Here is MSI CEO's statement on Tomshardware : https://www.tomshardware.com/news/msi-ceo-interview-intel-shortage-amd,38473.html


"Despite these reservations (bad experiance in the past (unknown what they are)), Chiang said that he is strongly considering using AMD processors in the near future." How do you translate that into what you are saying?


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## gxss (Apr 29, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> But it can use displayport, a displayport to vga adapter works


thanks  reply, what about win7 compatibility?


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 29, 2019)

gxss said:


> thanks  reply, what about win7 compatibility?



Ryzen APUs are not compatible with Windows 7, that is straight from AMD. Intel is not either.

There are solutions for Ryzen CPUs to work on 7 though


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## IceShroom (Apr 29, 2019)

mstenholm said:


> "Despite these reservations (bad experiance in the past (unknown what they are)), Chiang said that he is strongly considering using AMD processors in the near future." How do you translate that into what you are saying?


He only consider them, but dont use AMD component on thier PCs. 
Ryzen has been in market for nearly two years and we havent seen any model of their Trident PC with Ryzen or Radeon GPU. 
No custom version of RX Vega nor Stock RX Vega with Costom cooling. 
They dropped "Gaming" brand and cooling solution form Radeon GPUs. 
Havent release a single card with RX 590. 
*Yeah, they are cosidering AMD, its just only*.


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## TheLostSwede (Apr 29, 2019)

mstenholm said:


> "Despite these reservations (bad experiance in the past (unknown what they are)), Chiang said that he is strongly considering using AMD processors in the near future." How do you translate that into what you are saying?



I can tell you what they where when AMD launched Opteron, as I worked at MSI at the time. In fact, I was doing a road tour around the UK with a person from HQ in Taiwan, showing off their first and at the time, quite affordable dual socket Opteron board to some potential customers. I even managed to convince one company to try the boards and they were willing to do so, because they knew me from a previous job. But alas, MSI was only interested in quantity, so because they couldn't sell 100+ boards at a time, they weren't interested...
I guess that's MSI's bad past experience with AMD, untested products/platforms don't sell in the same kind of quantity untested, as tested, already proven products do...


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## Ebo (Apr 29, 2019)

My motherboard X470 from MSI already has the bios V9 date 2019-03-11 that support quote: new and upcomming AMD cpu


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## Mats (Apr 29, 2019)

Midiamp said:


> Yes MSI swiftly stated that it won't be the case, yet they come up with compatibility list with several missing B350/X370 support.


I'm not sure what lists you're referring to, but the only ones I've seen are for *3000G Picasso Zen+ APU's*.

I just want to give a heads up for their press release. If you don't read carefully you might get the impression the lists are for *3000 Matisse Zen 2 CPU's*.



			
				MSI said:
			
		

> _Below is a full list of upcoming BIOS versions which include compatibility for the next-gen AMD *APUs* for our 300-Series and 400-Series AM4 motherboards based on the latest AMD Combo PI version 1.0.0.0. _


https://www.techpowerup.com/254669/...en-amd-cpu-support-on-300-series-motherboards


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## notb (Apr 29, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Zen 2 chiplet is smaller than Zen 1 chip  => better chance of clocking higher.


I would like to see the scientific theory that legitimates this implication. 


R0H1T said:


> No one said *it can* atm - some of us are hoping, others predicting, there are still those who're hoping it doesn't reach 5GHz especially from team *Icy blue*. So unless you have a Zen2 sample in your hand all you can do is *speculate*.


You're running around multiple threads saying that Zen2 will hit high frequency and use low power.
Yet, when someone disagrees and gives arguments that don't support your religion, you're getting very aggressive and call everything "speculation".

It's obvious that you have very high hopes for Zen2 and you're taking this very personally.
But people are entitled to their opinions. You can't attack everyone who doesn't agree with you.
Zen2 launch is not that far away - we'll see who was right. Just get a chill pill and wait.


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