# The Secretly Horrifying Implications of AT&Ts Bandwidth Caps



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Mar 16, 2011)

> As is inevitably the case for all things, it turns out that Prince was right: The internet is over. AT&T recently announced the rollout of bandwidth caps, not just for their mobile network, but for residential DSL customers as well. The announcement is here, with more details here. They've not only already implemented this system in several test markets, but were apparently pleased enough about the results to go ahead with the program nationwide. Human beings were willing to take all this fuckery lying down, and so now it's official.
> 
> I know what you're doing right now. You're trying to comfort yourself. "Sure, that sucks" you're thinking, "but that 150GB cap is pretty high; I'll probably never run into it myself." And you're right, for now at least. Of course their introductory cap is going to start out on the high side. They need to give you time to get used to the concept without really suffering the consequences. But soon it will be lowered, and lowered again. Anybody familiar with college romance recognizes this as the "just the tip" strategy: Wherein the fucker promises the fuckee that, should they find the end of the penis unsatisfactory in some way, the process can always be stopped and the whole thing pulled out. But, much like their frat-bro counterparts, I guarantee you that AT&T has no intention of pulling out. They are going to plunge it into us to the hilt, and if we're lucky, maybe they'll whisper gently into our ears about what good girls we're being for taking it all so bravely.



More from the Source here.


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## Aceman.au (Mar 16, 2011)

Im unable to access the source at the moment. So what basically is happening, is this company is capping DL amounts or speed for their customers???

I'm from Australia and never heard of them. So enlighten me if I say something wrong.

If they cap DL amounts/speeds people will just move to a different provider?

The internet block from my College comes up as this:

Access to this web site which is categorized as >>*Humor/Jokes*<<, is currently restricted due to the *Name hidden* Internet Communications Policy.

Or is AT&T like Australias Telstra which owns the majority of internet cabling through-out the country and other providers buy a loan of these cables for their services?


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## THRiLL KiLL (Mar 16, 2011)

comcast did the same thing to its end users. meh. bastards.


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## Aceman.au (Mar 16, 2011)

THRiLL KiLL said:


> comcast did the same thing to its end users. meh. bastards.



So the damage is confined to only this provider?


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## JrRacinFan (Mar 16, 2011)

@l33t

In USA, us as consumers VERY RARELY get bandwith capped, which explains why the source is so disgruntled. AT & T is a 3-in-1 (ISP, phone, cable) near monopolized company. I have yet to hear if any other company is going to cap us.


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## Aceman.au (Mar 16, 2011)

JrRacinFan said:


> @l33t
> 
> In USA, us as consumers VERY RARELY get bandwith capped, which explains why the source is so disgruntled. AT & T is a 3-in-1 (ISP, phone, cable) near monopolized company. I have yet to hear if any other company is going to cap us.



Ouch. So it may impact pretty hard if other companies jump on.

EDIT: I did economics so I know what monopolise means. (before u think I dont have a clue)


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## JrRacinFan (Mar 16, 2011)

l33tGaMeR said:


> Ouch. So it may impact pretty hard if other companies jump on.
> 
> EDIT: I did economics so I know what monopolise means. (before u think I dont have a clue)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

Yeah, it would. I'm using a local ISP and highly doubt they will bandwith cap my area.


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## HammerON (Mar 16, 2011)

As a AT&T mobile phone user - this sucks

At lease my internet is provider is GCI (Alaska based) and currently not including any caps that I am aware of. As far as my mobile phone (Samsung Captivate) I do not use much bandwidth a month...


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## Aceman.au (Mar 16, 2011)

JrRacinFan said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
> 
> Yeah, it would. I'm using a local ISP and highly doubt they will bandwith cap my area.



Well the consumer is always right...


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## THRiLL KiLL (Mar 17, 2011)

l33tGaMeR said:


> So the damage is confined to only this provider?



comcast, att, earthlink and some other ones have followed suite. 

comcast (xfinity) is a major provider on the west coast.

they also tried to charge by usage in California, but they lost a ton of customers so they pulled it.


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## entropy13 (Mar 17, 2011)

THRiLL KiLL said:


> comcast, att, earthlink and some other ones have followed suite.
> 
> comcast (xfinity) is a major provider on the west coast.
> 
> they also tried to charge by usage in California, but they lost a ton of customers so they pulled it.



Apparently Comcast was the first to put a cap (at 250GB), but was essentially a "secret" cap. Now that AT&T had a publicly announced cap which is smaller, that gives Comcast incentive to lower its cap (and not make it a secret anymore lol).


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## qubit (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, this shit is already happening in the UK and has been for ages.  Here's an example of two ISPs: www.zen.co.uk and www.aaisp.co.uk


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## Mussels (Mar 17, 2011)

here in australia, we're just moving from caps back to unlimited.


personally i think its a sign of americas poor economy atm, and that it will revert in the coming years.


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## Thrackan (Mar 17, 2011)

qubit said:


> Yeah, this shit is already happening in the UK and has been for ages.  Here's an example of two ISPs: www.zen.co.uk and www.aaisp.co.uk



Small difference:

In the US (and here in NL), the Interwebs started out with caps. Then they lifted the caps. We were free! And now they're coming back.

In the UK (and in Belgium), caps were never really lifted, or for a real short period of time.


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## qubit (Mar 17, 2011)

Thrackan said:


> Small difference:
> 
> In the US (and here in NL), the Interwebs started out with caps. Then they lifted the caps. We were free! And now they're coming back.
> 
> In the UK (and in Belgium), caps were never really lifted, or for a real short period of time.



That sounds about right.  I certainly don't remember an uncapped internet here in Blighty.

In fact, they love nothing better than advertising an "unlimited" service with limits, ie the Fair Use Policy. Only now, after many years of these lies, is the regulator starting to crack down on these false claims.


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## Black Haru (Mar 17, 2011)

Mussels said:


> here in australia, we're just moving from caps back to unlimited.
> 
> 
> personally i think its a sign of americas poor economy atm, and that it will revert in the coming years.



I think it's a sign of AT&T being money grubbing whores who need to be split up by the government (again)

the issue is, they have a lot of leverage, being the only provider in many areas; and seeing as our Saviour (FiOS) has stopped expansion we may but up the proverbial creek.


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## Mussels (Mar 17, 2011)

Black Haru said:


> I think it's a sign of AT&T being money grubbing whores who need to be split up by the government (again)
> 
> the issue is, they have a lot of leverage, being the only provider in many areas; and seeing as our Saviour (FiOS) has stopped expansion we may but up the proverbial creek.



all internet - and i mean literally all, is fed through one provider here, telstra. their leverage lets people get 15GB a month for the same price others pay for unlimited... and they're a few ISP's down the foodchain


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## Easo (Mar 17, 2011)

Latvia, Riga or basically any other city = cap, what is cap? In some country regions with only wireless there still is cap though. The meaning of cap mostly is gone for us.


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## Black Haru (Mar 17, 2011)

Mussels said:


> all internet - and i mean literally all, is fed through one provider here, telstra. their leverage lets people get 15GB a month for the same price others pay for unlimited... and they're a few ISP's down the foodchain



sounds like AT&T has a secret butt buddy.

AT&T is notoriously unreliable, any one who frequents the TS can attest to my ridiculous packet loss. it's gone down entirely almost every night for the past month.


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## horik (Mar 17, 2011)

Here in Spain vodafone did the same thing for mobile connections,but the cap is at 4gb,than you get a shitty 128 kb connection in theory,but is about 15 kb real,all this for 47 €/month.


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## TheMailMan78 (Mar 17, 2011)

Did anyone at all look at the source? Anyone? Its http://www.cracked.com/. As in Mad magazine's rival.


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## entropy13 (Mar 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Did anyone at all look at the source? Anyone? Its http://www.cracked.com/. As in Mad magazine's rival.



Being a humor site doesn't really mean that everything should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I mean, "6 Important Things You Didn't Know We're Running Out Of" is actually quite plausible.


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## HossHuge (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.pamil-visions.net/att-bandwidth-cap/224385/

http://cable.tmcnet.com/topics/cabl...bandwidth-cap-policy-fixed-line-broadband.htm

http://gizmodo.com/#!5075831/att-monthly-bandwidth-caps-are-here

Here are some more sources that say the same thing.

Here in Taiwan we have no cap and believe me people exploit it to the fullest.


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## entropy13 (Mar 17, 2011)

I think by and large there aren't any caps in Asia. I might be wrong though lol


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## qubit (Mar 17, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> Here in Taiwan we have no cap and believe me people exploit it to the fullest.



Have a look at the business offering from www.aaisp.net.uk

It offers various speeds of fibre/ethernet access, uncontended and completely unthrottled or slowed down, 24 hours a day.

And the price? It costs _thousands!_


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## HossHuge (Mar 17, 2011)

qubit said:


> Have a look at the business offering from www.aaisp.net.uk
> 
> It offers various speeds of fibre/ethernet access, uncontended and completely unthrottled or slowed down, 24 hours a day.
> 
> And the price? It costs _thousands!_



That makes me want to cry.  I pay about $20US for the same thing.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 17, 2011)

The caps really are not bad.  The 150GB will get almost everyone by, even people who heavily play online games, only the heavy downloaders will be hit with this.  It is a tatic to get those who are really sucking up the bandwidth to pony up a little extra or cut it out.  And with the overage charge only being $10 for another 50GB, I don't see much of a problem with it.

Now the question I have is are they going to only really enforce this on the lower speed connections, like Comcast, or does the 150GB cap apply to all speeds.  With Comcast, they enforce the 250GB cap on their slowest two speed packages, if you get the highest two packages they don't care how much bandwidth you use a month.

As for the caps getting smaller as time goes on, the opposite will actually be true.  As we become more dependant on the internet, and more content is delievered this way, the caps will only grow, as will the connection speeds and digital infrastructure.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Did anyone at all look at the source? Anyone? Its http://www.cracked.com/. As in Mad magazine's rival.



That is just for the over exagerated satirical article about what will happen, the actual cap has been confirmed.


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## Black Haru (Mar 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Did anyone at all look at the source? Anyone? Its http://www.cracked.com/. As in Mad magazine's rival.



you just jealous!


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## TheMailMan78 (Mar 17, 2011)

Well if my carrier decides to do this Ill be out of a job. I work from home. I upload and download about 5gigs a day. Add streaming video and video games to that and Im done.


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## entropy13 (Mar 17, 2011)

qubit said:


> Have a look at the business offering from www.aaisp.net.uk
> 
> It offers various speeds of fibre/ethernet access, uncontended and completely unthrottled or slowed down, 24 hours a day.
> 
> And the price? It costs _thousands!_



Even the cheapest line type is still way expensive compared to my current plan, 4x more expensive actually.


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## Frick (Mar 17, 2011)

The really sad thing is that the article is not up to Robert Brockways standards.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well if my carrier decides to do this Ill be out of a job. I work from home. I upload and download about 5gigs a day. Add streaming video and video games to that and Im done.



chances are you can get a higher plan and/or will be able to buy extra data blocks should you need to, thats how it works here in australia with a couple ISPs.
if worst comes to worse, get a 2nd internet connection.


i guess over the next 10 years, Australia's internet is going to fly past that of America's. we are currently laying Fiber to 93%? of Australian homes. ( if its not caned )


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## Mussels (Mar 17, 2011)

slyfox2151 said:


> chances are you can get a higher plan and/or will be able to buy extra data blocks should you need to, thats how it works here in australia with a couple ISPs.
> if worst comes to worse, get a 2nd internet connection.



and theres a few that just dont give a crap






(1784923MB =  1743GB = 1.70TB in one month, aussie ISP with ~1MB/s download)


and people wonder why caps exist, some people utterly abuse it. (me XD)


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 17, 2011)

TPG, Westnet iinet all offer unlimited caps , im currently on the Optus 500GB cable @ 100mbps. ( in a few days im getting the speed incress. ) i personaly like the idea of caps, however it does need to be setup right, the lowest plan should still be quite high... over 150gb.. then maybe 500 - 1TB, then a 10TB plan for those who need nearly unlimited but within reson.


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## Delta6326 (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't have AT&T but my OLD isp had a cap so low if you watched more than 4-6 youtube videos in one day for the next about 26hours you had dial up speeds. glad i  changed to a local isp.
btw I use U.S. Cellular


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## newtekie1 (Mar 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well if my carrier decides to do this Ill be out of a job. I work from home. I upload and download about 5gigs a day. Add streaming video and video games to that and Im done.



5x30=150GB

That is assuming you are working every single day of the month.  Add streaming audio/video to it and you might go over the cap yes, but then you just pay the extra $10 a month for another 50GB and your set.  So I highly doubt your internet bill going up $10 a month will put you out of a job, especially since if you are really working from home you should be writing that off on your taxes anyway...



slyfox2151 said:


> chances are you can get a higher plan and/or will be able to buy extra data blocks should you need to, thats how it works here in australia with a couple ISPs.
> if worst comes to worse, get a 2nd internet connection.



Yeah, it has already been said, $10 buys you another 50GB.  _And_ AT&T is giving their customers 2 grace months before they start charging them the overage fee.  So you can go over the cap once or twice and they will just inform you by a letter, but the 3rd time they will charge you the $10.

Plus if you bundle their TV service with the internet the cap goes up to 250GB(TV bandwidth not included).


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## Mussels (Mar 17, 2011)

slyfox2151 said:


> TPG, Westnet iinet all offer unlimited caps , im currently on the Optus 500GB cable @ 100mbps. ( in a few days im getting the speed incress. ) i personaly like the idea of caps, however it does need to be setup right, the lowest plan should still be quite high... over 150gb.. then maybe 500 - 1TB, then a 10TB plan for those who need nearly unlimited but within reson.



even a 500GB cap prevents the real abusers. you can get line speed twice what i have on many ADSL2+ exchanges, so 3TB+ a month? thems the users you gotta cap, to keep the network uncongested.


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## JrRacinFan (Mar 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well if my carrier decides to do this Ill be out of a job. I work from home. I upload and download about 5gigs a day. Add streaming video and video games to that and Im done.



Make them also aware of what's occurring, they might pay your ISP bill at home due to being work related expenses.


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## AsRock (Mar 17, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> Apparently Comcast was the first to put a cap (at 250GB), but was essentially a "secret" cap. Now that AT&T had a publicly announced cap which is smaller, that gives Comcast incentive to lower its cap (and not make it a secret anymore lol).



Well if they do lower it i hope it's not to much lol. 250GB a month is a freaking good cap.



Mussels said:


> here in australia, we're just moving from caps back to unlimited.
> 
> 
> personally i think its a sign of americas poor economy atm, and that it will revert in the coming years.



More like Comcast realizing that people like my self will pay $70 ( for internet ) and tell they shove there TV offers up there ass as i can wait a few weeks for it become available on places like Netflix.

Which means they lose out $50+ for standard cable from me alown

Our bandwidth is crazy since we started to watch much more online.  5.2GB just for 2 days( not even 2 days in fact ) as we i might be gaming or more than 1 family member watching netflix at the same time


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## Mussels (Mar 17, 2011)

AsRock said:


> Our bandwidth is crazy since we started to watch much more online.  5.2GB just for 2 days( not even 2 days in fact ) as we i might be gaming or more than 1 family member watching netflix at the same time



you saw my usage - that was our first month going from 120GB cap to unlimited. since then we've settled to around 800GB a month between 3 people


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 17, 2011)

5gb per day is pretty standard around here, my cousin, his 2 mates and i go through 2.2 terabytes per month with 2 internet connections.


one being cable @ 100mbps and the other is ADSL2... syncs at 15000-16000.... two lines works a lot better when you have gamers in your house who hate lag


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## Over_Lord (Mar 17, 2011)

Situation in India:

20$ per month - 4 Mbps for 8GB(data cap), then speed comes down to 256kbps for rest of the month

25$ per month - 1Mbps for 15GB(data cap), then speed comes down to 256Kbps for rest of the month


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## AsRock (Mar 17, 2011)

Mussels said:


> you saw my usage - that was our first month going from 120GB cap to unlimited. since then we've settled to around 800GB a month between 3 people



Well don't need that much but it's about time you guys got some bandwidth with less caps.  My friend Andy suffers it still he lives in Brisbane ?. Diablo 2 days were a nightmare even more so i was in the UK at that time.



thunderising said:


> Situation in India:
> 
> 20$ per month - 4 Mbps for 8GB(data cap), then speed comes down to 256kbps for rest of the month
> 
> 25$ per month - 1Mbps for 15GB(data cap), then speed comes down to 256Kbps for rest of the month



Ooh that would kill me lol..  even if there was a $75 one for offer lol.


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## streetfighter 2 (Mar 17, 2011)

Firstly cracked is the most reliable news source, being just slightly in front of the Onion.  Except cracked isn't funny. :shadedshu  This LATimes article is better.

Secondly there is literally nothing we can do to prevent crap like this unless we pass/passed laws preventing it, as currently there are none.  Additionally Net Neutrality is poorly planned, widely opposed and toothless, but nevertheless it's the only thing we almost have that can somewhat impede crap like this.

Thirdly the FCC has been trying to stop the use of intentionally hidden/unspecified bandwidth caps and packet discrimination for some time now, even without Net Neutrality.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10033376-38.html

Also, I oppose the use of strong language when it isn't funny and doesn't prove anything.  Fuck cracked. :shadedshu

Oh and Comcast has a bandwidth cap (for several years), and I'm pretty sure Verizon does too; Probably a lot of others who DON'T publish them.


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## Bo$$ (Mar 17, 2011)

qubit said:


> Yeah, this shit is already happening in the UK and has been for ages.  Here's an example of two ISPs: www.zen.co.uk and www.aaisp.co.uk



Sky broadband and Virgin are unlimited


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## entropy13 (Mar 17, 2011)

AsRock said:


> Ooh that would kill me lol..  even if there was a $75 one for offer lol.



How about $22 for 2 Mbps, no data cap (that I know of lol)? That's what I'm on right now.


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## TRIPTEX_CAN (Mar 17, 2011)

We have caps with most of the ISPs here in Canada. 

Like Mussles said only those who intentially abuse bandwidth would be even close to caps like 100Gb and 150GB every month. With heavy game and a fair amount of downloading I'm always below my cap because I know it's there. It's doesnt actually impact my life. 

Also correct me if I'm wrong but no residential customer use should be able to pull 1.7tb in a month unless they are balls deep in torrents. 

Argument 1 for caps. "no caps = torrent FFA"


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## qubit (Mar 17, 2011)

Bo$$ said:


> Sky broadband and Virgin are unlimited



Not really. Read the small print.

They throttle the speed, to prevent you going over a certain amount per month. They then call this con an "unlimited" service.


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## TheMailMan78 (Mar 17, 2011)

Mine is unlimited currently. I sure hope it stays that way. Out of curiosity is there anyway I can currently track my own download rate on a monthly basis?


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## newtekie1 (Mar 17, 2011)

Here is an interesting little bit of figuring I just did.

If you have the cheapest DSL package in my area(also the most popular due to price):

Download Speed: 1.5Mb/s(192KB/s)
Upload Speed: 384Kb/s(48KB/s)

So with the 150GB cap, it would take a user just over 7 and a half days to use up that cap if they were totally maxing out their connection 24/7.  And that is assuming you actually get those speeds, those are "up to" numbers, so most of the time the speeds are cloaser to 1Mb/s and 128Kb/s up/down.

If you get their fastest DSL package:

Download Speed: 6.0Mb/s(768KB/s)
Upload Speed: 768Kb/s(96KB/s)

So with the 150GB cap, it would take a user just over 2 days to use up that cap if they were totally maxing out their connection 24/7.  Again assuming they actually get those speeds, as they are also "up to" numbers.  Realistically they are closer to 5Mb/s and 512Kb/s.

The cap isn't really all that bad.  My Girlfriend's Parents live out in the country, and the only option is WildBlue Satellite.  Their download speed is only 512Kb/s and their upload is only 128Kb/s, and their capped at 7.3GB per month download and 2.25GB upload, and they pay $56 a month.




TheMailMan78 said:


> Mine is unlimited currently. I sure hope it stays that way. Out of curiosity is there anyway I can currently track my own download rate on a monthly basis?



I use my router to do it, using a Tomato firmware(though I believe DD-WRT does this also).


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## qubit (Mar 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Mine is unlimited currently. I sure hope it stays that way. Out of curiosity is there anyway I can currently track my own download rate on a monthly basis?



There's various ways. You could run the excellent freebie NetMeter app which has a totalling function. However, this is obviously limited to just your main machine. A better way is to get your firewall to do it. Roll-your-own Linux firewall Astaro does this and totals the results per month.

Best of all, would be to have your ISP supply an online control panel that does all this for you. Mine does and it's really useful.


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## Bengie (Mar 19, 2011)

l33tGaMeR said:


> Im unable to access the source at the moment. So what basically is happening, is this company is capping DL amounts or speed for their customers???
> 
> I'm from Australia and never heard of them. So enlighten me if I say something wrong.
> 
> ...



Your college sucks. My when I was in college 4 years ago, the computer lab rules were "you can browse any legal content you want, but if someone can see your screen and they are offended, you have to move or stop browsing that content"

You could hang in the computer labs browsing porn for all they cared. Although, if the lab is full and you're piss'n around on Facebook/etc and someone needs to get work done, you gotta give up your computer.


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## theonedub (Mar 19, 2011)

You think 150GB was bad, Frontier had actually tried to cap landline DSL @ *5GB/month*. Then they attempted a cap @ 100GB/month years later. Both times the great work by http://stopthecap.com/ helped to get it squashed. That site is pretty good on following usage cap/overcharging schemes and getting them publicized enough to, in some cases, get them removed.


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## zithe (Mar 19, 2011)

I have time warner internet. If I remember correctly, they planned to do the same thing but changed their minds when there was a massive public outrage.


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## mastrdrver (Apr 7, 2011)

If anyone has any hopes for Google to change anything as far as internet bandwidth is concerned needs to do some research from ~10 years ago when ATT was going to do fiber to the home. The Cable providers cried foul to the FCC. So the FCC did this awesome thing and stepped in and said that ATT could only go to the last ~10 ft. Do I need to mention that ATT decided it wasn't worth it?

Also when the government broke up Bell "the first time" the separated the manufacturing/long distance from the service end and divided up the service end in to many pieces. If the broke up Bell again they would only be breaking up the service end again. The manufacturing part became Lucent when ATT divided in the 90s.



Mussels said:


> all internet - and i mean literally all, is fed through one provider here, telstra. their leverage lets people get 15GB a month for the same price others pay for unlimited... and they're a few ISP's down the foodchain



Just to point out real quick.....

I'm quite amazed by some sites (and people who comment on them) to the lack of knowledge of most (if not close to all) about how much of the "internet" in the US really boils down to about two companies: Bell and ATT

I'll have to double check but I'm pretty sure that covers cable too. I'm not talking about the "local" providers of the internet but the ones who either own or built (at one point all) the overwhelming majority of the internet infrastructure in the US.


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## Over_Lord (Apr 7, 2011)

theonedub said:


> You think 150GB was bad, Frontier had actually tried to cap landline DSL @ *5GB/month*. Then they attempted a cap @ 100GB/month years later. Both times the great work by http://stopthecap.com/ helped to get it squashed. That site is pretty good on following usage cap/overcharging schemes and getting them publicized enough to, in some cases, get them removed.



thats what we have here, 14$ Internet DSL India gives you 5GB and 512kbps only...


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## Mussels (Apr 7, 2011)

thunderising said:


> thats what we have here, 14$ Internet DSL India gives you 5GB and 512kbps only...



that'd be $40 here, and they'd make you bundle a phone line with it as well.

Oh and then we'd get indian guys as tech support as well, so we're even on that count.


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## Aceman.au (Apr 7, 2011)

Mussels said:


> that'd be $40 here, and they'd make you bundle a phone line with it as well.
> 
> Oh and then we'd get indian guys as tech support as well, so we're even on that count.



I can back that up as my parents had to do that too. $79 AUD a month for 400kbytes of DL and 100kbytes of upload with a 100GB of total download+upload limit. Bundled with a phone and mobile plan setup. And the 79 dollars is the internet alone, I don't know the total bill amount.

Mussels Ive heard if u threaten to change provider they give you a better deal


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## Mussels (Apr 7, 2011)

best bet is not to threaten, but to actually just leave. some people get really stubborn about losing their phone numbers and their 'discounts'  tho.


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