# What are the consequences of genetically altering ticks, fleas, and mosquitoes to control their populations?



## Space Lynx (May 17, 2022)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately, like let's say it works really really well... we already know they have released some genetically modified mosquitoes in Florida, to reduce the population number.

What if they did the same with ticks? I just read this article below, that says they can alter DNA of ticks now too... and ticks are a big problem... especially for deer of late if I recall correctly, and humans.









						Gene editing now possible in ticks
					

Researchers have successfully used CRISPR-Cas9 to edit the genomes of the black-legged tick. To accomplish this feat, they developed an embryo injection protocol that overcame a major barrier in the field.



					www.sciencedaily.com
				












						Why a U.S. Company Plans to Release 2.4 Billion Genetically Modified Mosquitoes
					

The insects, created by biotech firm Oxitec, will be non-biting males engineered to only produce viable male offspring, per the company




					www.smithsonianmag.com
				




Now bring in dogs and cats, etc - fleas are the historic cause for many diseases coming from fleas. (to my knowledge we can't alter DNA of fleas yet... but it is probably around the corner?)

What if we simply got rid of all three of these? I know birds eat some of them, but honestly when I watch birds in nature, most of the time they get a worm from the ground. Are the worms reliant on any of these three creatures? Where at in the cycle of life do these 3 creatures come into play is what I suppose I am asking? I know bats eat some of them, but what eats bats? What is the cyclical effect of one species ending and another thriving?

Many species have died over the years, mainly due to human intervention, or due to climate shifts millions of years ago, etc... so why exactly do we need the tick/flea/mosquito to stick around? Thoughts?

I'm genuinely curious about this stuff, do you think scientists are making a mistake by controlling these populations, or not going far enough and no reason to keep them around?


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## the54thvoid (May 17, 2022)

It's a valid question. Whether you believe in God, or just evolution, do we have the moral right to 'annihilate' a species we deem to be a nuisance? More, what if the stresses placed on the target species cause mutations to adapt to the very thing that is trying to eliminate it?

As for human causes of species death, yes, we're doing an awful lot of bad shit but nothing compared to the mass extinction events of the past. It's a sobering thought that our recorded history (cave painting aside) goes back only a few thousand years. And we know from the geological evidence that natural events play havok with life, all life, every few tens of thousands of years. Humans have the hubris to believe we are different, that we are special, but if we look at the very history from which he have come, we can see it is littered with disaster--most of it not of our doing. It should make us more careful with what we do in the present, value the world around us. But we do not.

Today I felt a tickle on my neck. Like a little wuss, I immediately raked my finger to my skin and threw the intruder to the ground. Saw that it was a tiny ladybug. Put it on a piece of paper, saw it moving and took it outside where I placed it on a leaf in the garden. Would have been quicker to squish it. But I don't like killing things I don't need to kill.

Not sure what I'm saying. Maybe just happy I value life. Even a bug's life. Though, to be fair, when I did remove a tick from my thigh a year back, I wasn't quite so empathic.


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## oobymach (May 17, 2022)

Frogs, toads, and amphibians rely on insect populations, fish eat frogs, so do birds, everything as annoying as it is has a purpose. Maybe that purpose is to annoy us. 

Genetically altering any species will have consequences, both direct and indirect (direct: eg. Monsanto seeds are genetically altered to contain pesticide at the genetic level so they don't need to spray crops, indirect: anything that ingests these altered crops grows tumors, your vegetables you buy at the store are probably grown with Monsanto seeds) we as humans have no respect at all for nature, we pollute and destroy our home planet on a scale so grand it may as well be our united global goal.


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## Vya Domus (May 17, 2022)

Ethics are irrelevant, this is straight up dangerous for our own sake. These things are carriers for all sort of nasty diseases, who knows how altering their genetic material might end up impacting the viruses that they carry.


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## Shrek (May 17, 2022)

Species aside, we eliminate small-pox, polio, etc.


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## eidairaman1 (May 17, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> It's a valid question. Whether you believe in God, or just evolution, do we have the moral right to 'annihilate' a species we deem to be a nuisance? More, what if the stresses placed on the target species cause mutations to adapt to the very thing that is trying to eliminate it?
> 
> As for human causes of species death, yes, we're doing an awful lot of bad shit but nothing compared to the mass extinction events of the past. It's a sobering thought that our recorded history (cave painting aside) goes back only a few thousand years. And we know from the geological evidence that natural events play havok with life, all life, every few tens of thousands of years. Humans have the hubris to believe we are different, that we are special, but if we look at the very history from which he have come, we can see it is littered with disaster--most of it not of our doing. It should make us more careful with what we do in the present, value the world around us. But we do not.
> 
> ...


Their life spans are already short, lets not extend them or shorten them. They are pestilence to warm blood species but food for Amphibians, other Insects, reptiles.

Leave them alone, let nature remove them.

Ladybugs ofc are helpful.


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## Space Lynx (May 17, 2022)

Shrek said:


> Species aside, we eliminate small-pox, polio, etc.


This is an interesting way to look at it, I have never thought of it before that way. Why do we value the life of flea over a virus or bacteria? Interesting. I need to contemplate this more.



Vya Domus said:


> Ethics are irrelevant, this is straight up dangerous for our own sake. These things are carriers for all sort of nasty diseases, who knows how altering their genetic material might end up impacting the viruses that they carry.


I mostly agree, humans playing God is probably not a smart idea due to our hubris and lack of full objectivity. 



oobymach said:


> Frogs, toads, and amphibians rely on insect populations, fish eat frogs, so do birds, everything as annoying as it is has a purpose. Maybe that purpose is to annoy us.
> 
> Genetically altering any species will have consequences, both direct and indirect (direct: eg. Monsanto seeds are genetically altered to contain pesticide at the genetic level so they don't need to spray crops, indirect: anything that ingests these altered crops grows tumors, your vegetables you buy at the store are probably grown with Monsanto seeds) we as humans have no respect at all for nature, we pollute and destroy our home planet on a scale so grand it may as well be our united global goal.


Yeah Monsanto is quite... the list goes on and on for miles... truly a shame what we have done to the world as a species I agree.

My only counter argument would be, a lot of these populations, take mosquitoes for example, would not exist in Hawaii if it were not for human migration patterns that brought them there. That applies to fleas and other pests to some regions of the world... and humans got on just fine in Hawaii long before mosquitoes arrived... so how do we begin to think of this...



the54thvoid said:


> It's a valid question. Whether you believe in God, or just evolution, do we have the moral right to 'annihilate' a species we deem to be a nuisance? More, what if the stresses placed on the target species cause mutations to adapt to the very thing that is trying to eliminate it?
> 
> As for human causes of species death, yes, we're doing an awful lot of bad shit but nothing compared to the mass extinction events of the past. It's a sobering thought that our recorded history (cave painting aside) goes back only a few thousand years. And we know from the geological evidence that natural events play havok with life, all life, every few tens of thousands of years. Humans have the hubris to believe we are different, that we are special, but if we look at the very history from which he have come, we can see it is littered with disaster--most of it not of our doing. It should make us more careful with what we do in the present, value the world around us. But we do not.
> 
> ...


 
Same, I try to save lady bugs every time I can do so, no idea why we have this innate relationship with them... and yes I agree, fuck the tick, you would be real sad if you had lyme disease the rest of your life because of that tick. We 'annihilated' plenty of species that came before and no one seems to shed any tears over them and the world still keeps going on... definitely presents a weird ethical and moral dilemma... lol

Honestly no idea what is best here, also what if it is natural for the world to have ticks/fleas/mosquitoes, but what if their population has grown too large? We have deer hunting season when the deer grow too much in population, perhaps we should do the same with ticks/fleas/mosquitoes?  Again I don't know if I agree with playing God in a lab with DNA is the right move to go, regardless, too late for that anyway, multiple locations on Earth now have releases genetically modified mosquitoes, so eh.


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## eidairaman1 (May 17, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> This is an interesting way to look at it, I have never thought of it before that way. Why do we value the life of flea over a virus or bacteria? Interesting. I need to contemplate this more.
> 
> 
> I mostly agree, humans playing God is probably not a smart idea due to our hubris and lack of full objectivity.
> ...


We should not be Messing with things already programmed by God.


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## Shrek (May 17, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> We should not be Messing with things already programmed by God.



Does that include vaccines?

I don't want to get political here.


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## Lew Zealand (May 17, 2022)

We've already driven loads of species extinct which are _not _pests, we could probably do without mosquitoes. They are not a foundational food source for any species and what few calories they add will likely be accounted for by other insects. Not as convinced about ticks though as there's more meat on those bones. Carapaces. Whatever.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 17, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> I have been thinking about this a lot lately, like let's say it works really really well... we already know they have released some genetically modified mosquitoes in Florida, to reduce the population number.
> 
> What if they did the same with ticks? I just read this article below, that says they can alter DNA of ticks now too... and ticks are a big problem... especially for deer of late if I recall correctly, and humans.
> 
> ...


Killing off wildlife hasn't often worked out well for the environment they're in or the food chain they're part of.

Or us in the end, this and many other area's of science truly baffle me with their ignorance, and short sighted views.

And they're are many cases of scientists putting their word ,life and everything on science that ends up killing millions of innocent people, think lead IN fuel for no knock motoring, a fully retarded idea from the off, ,, just for money.

And I work in science, I'm fine with science, just not over egging what you know, which is what.

Do you think that tribe on the island never visited by outsider's think they haven't got an understanding of the whole universe from they're perspective.

That's science to me too, the tribesmen who knows it all on his deluded little island.


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## bug (May 17, 2022)

That's just it, we don't know (all of) the consequences.

For example, at some point the Chinese killed off the sparrows, because they were feeding on their crops. Soon after, they were presented with the "gift" of out-of-control locusts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign


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## skizzo (May 17, 2022)

ticks are a parasite, literally, and are rampant in my area in Central NY. I just pulled one off my leg yesterday (this is never a fun time removing them, there is a reason there is a saying "dug in like a tick") and I've been fortunate that I haven't had any lyme disease complications from previous bites. There used to be a belief if they were on you for X time you would be infected and we would sorta freak out not knowing how long the tick was on you and go get some like nuclear bomb equivalent of antibiotics (I think it is doxycycline) to make sure you don't develop lyme. Now it's more understood you could get infected at any point in time it is attached to you, so things more important to watch out for is if you develop odd rashes at the bite area, the bulls eye rash is the worst and sure sign you got something from it for example. It's always a challenge keeping the dogs and cats tick free too but they get medicine for this and does work for the most part but we put bandanas on them that are sprayed down with permethrin (needs to be diluted) so they wear them outside as an extra layer of tick protection.  me and my dad make a SHIT TON of "tick tubes" and just got done making 175 new ones this year to be put at both our homes and our camp. spray permethrin (again should be diluted) on some material like pillow stuffing or anything that critters like mice might use and put that sprayed down material into an old toilet paper tube. distribute them all over where critters could access them, in your basement, sheds, perimeter and tree lines of your property etc. so the mice and other critters grab this material and take it back to their nests and places of travel and therefore kills the ticks before they can really populate. ticks form in those areas more because the stupid critter like mice sure have a hard time removing them so they thrive in areas where there are plenty of "hosts" for them to attach too....like a mouse nest. I am an avid deer hunter too and have seen some really ticked up. It's a bad situation all around. I'm actually going to start spraying a set of pants and shirt and shoes I always wear out doing yard work with permethrin which not only keeps away the ticks but the 'skeeters and black flies etc that drive you nuts in this area. the effect doesn't last forever so it's good to do it say every few weeks or so or after you wash said clothes

rant to say if we can do something to rid the world of ticks, then WONDERFUL! literal parasite, I have a hard time believing there would be any sort of a butterfly effect ridding the world of a parasite, as if ticks somehow help maintain some delicate balance in the ecosystem or certain species etc.

keeping chickens on your property would really combat ticks, they are an animal that eats them up along with other annoying critters in your yard. but chickens aren't going to starve if we rid the world of ticks soooo fuck 'em (ticks that is). as far as I know, no species solely relies on ticks as it's main form of survival (food).

take note, these little pricks, I mean ticks, were not a problem until like maybe 15 years ago. At least in the region I live in, it is different in other regions of the USA and I'm sure the world also. I would be outside all the time as a kid and never ONCE got one on me, or heard of any friends getting one on them, never even heard of ticks until they became a problem. so were animals, birds, chickens etc starving to death prior to ticks population booming in our area? no they ate the few that were around, and all the other stuff they eat, like grubs, snails, worms, seeds etc which they will continue to thrive off of if the tick went the way of the dodo. one last time, fuck ticks


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## Count von Schwalbe (May 17, 2022)

Male mosquitos rarely travel over 3 miles from breeding grounds. Releasing GMO mosquitoes will not eradicate them, just reduce their territory.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 17, 2022)

skizzo said:


> ticks are a parasite, literally, and are rampant in my area in Central NY. I just pulled one off my leg yesterday (this is never a fun time removing them, there is a reason there is a saying "dug in like a tick") and I've been fortunate that I haven't had any lyme disease complications from previous bites. There used to be a belief if they were on you for X time you would be infected and we would sorta freak out not knowing how long the tick was on you and go get some like nuclear bomb equivalent of antibiotics (I think it is doxycycline) to make sure you don't develop lyme. Now it's more understood you could get infected at any point in time it is attached to you, so things more important to watch out for is if you develop odd rashes at the bite area, the bulls eye rash is the worst and sure sign you got something from it for example. It's always a challenge keeping the dogs and cats tick free too but they get medicine for this and does work for the most part but we put bandanas on them that are sprayed down with permethrin (needs to be diluted) so they wear them outside as an extra layer of tick protection.  me and my dad make a SHIT TON of "tick tubes" and just got done making 175 new ones this year to be put at both our homes and our camp. spray permethrin (again should be diluted) on some material like pillow stuffing or anything that critters like mice might use and put that sprayed down material into an old toilet paper tube. distribute them all over where critters could access them, in your basement, sheds, perimeter and tree lines of your property etc. so the mice and other critters grab this material and take it back to their nests and places of travel and therefore kills the ticks before they can really populate. ticks form in those areas more because the stupid critter like mice sure have a hard time removing them so they thrive in areas where there are plenty of "hosts" for them to attach too....like a mouse nest. I am an avid deer hunter too and have seen some really ticked up. It's a bad situation all around. I'm actually going to start spraying a set of pants and shirt and shoes I always wear out doing yard work with permethrin which not only keeps away the ticks but the 'skeeters and black flies etc that drive you nuts in this area. the effect doesn't last forever so it's good to do it say every few weeks or so or after you wash said clothes
> 
> rant to say if we can do something to rid the world of ticks, then WONDERFUL! literal parasite, I have a hard time believing there would be any sort of a butterfly effect ridding the world of a parasite, as if ticks somehow help maintain some delicate balance in the ecosystem or certain species etc.
> 
> ...


I love your experienced passion, I would like to know they researched the effects property though.


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## skizzo (May 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I love your experienced passion, I would like to know they researched the effects property though.


yea I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve, if you will, and this is something that hits home with me. the passion comes from wanting to keep my family and myself safe from disease. And I understand there would need to be a better understanding of what ripple impact it could start. personal experiences are what make me dislike ticks so much. if you asked me 20yrs ago, I wouldn't have known what a tick is, and would have confused it with involuntary movements, "tics"

There is ONE positive I will say, it's kinda funny to use it as excuse to try and start some hanky panky with the girlfriend...."ok sweetheart, get them clothes off so I can check you for ticks"


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## FreedomEclipse (May 17, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> It's a valid question. Whether you believe in God, or just evolution, do we have the moral right to 'annihilate' a species we deem to be a nuisance? More, what if the stresses placed on the target species cause mutations to adapt to the very thing that is trying to eliminate it?
> 
> As for human causes of species death, yes, we're doing an awful lot of bad shit but nothing compared to the mass extinction events of the past. It's a sobering thought that our recorded history (cave painting aside) goes back only a few thousand years. And we know from the geological evidence that natural events play havok with life, all life, every few tens of thousands of years. Humans have the hubris to believe we are different, that we are special, but if we look at the very history from which he have come, we can see it is littered with disaster--most of it not of our doing. It should make us more careful with what we do in the present, value the world around us. But we do not.
> 
> ...




Just make sure it was the native species youre saving - Everything else can be crushed or fed to spiders.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 17, 2022)

skizzo said:


> yea I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve, if you will, and this is something that hits home with me. the passion comes from wanting to keep my family and myself safe from disease. And I understand there would need to be a better understanding of what ripple impact it could start. personal experiences are what make me dislike ticks so much. if you asked me 20yrs ago, I wouldn't have known what a tick is, and would have confused it with involuntary movements, "tics"
> 
> There is ONE positive I will say, it's kinda funny to use it as excuse to try and start some hanky panky with the girlfriend...."ok sweetheart, get them clothes off so I can check you for ticks"


What region is that again?


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## Count von Schwalbe (May 17, 2022)

Bear in mind that good mosquito control and quarantine on ships and aircraft have prevented plagues far far worse than Covid ever could be. Wholesale extermination of mosquitoes ended the yearly death of thousands due to yellow fever alone - over 20000 people died in the Mississippi River valley in 1878 alone. Yellow fever is also a violent disease, comparable to Ebola in its effects. Think death from vomiting blood...

And that is not even mentioning malaria, which can stay with you for the rest of your life.


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## Space Lynx (May 18, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Bear in mind that good mosquito control and quarantine on ships and aircraft have prevented plagues far far worse than Covid ever could be. Wholesale extermination of mosquitoes ended the yearly death of thousands due to yellow fever alone - over 20000 people died in the Mississippi River valley in 1878 alone. Yellow fever is also a violent disease, comparable to Ebola in its effects. Think death from vomiting blood...
> 
> And that is not even mentioning malaria, which can stay with you for the rest of your life.



That is kind of the point of me making this topic, do we really need mosquitoes/fleas/ticks anymore? lol I don't have the answer to that... just interesting to think about since we technically do have the power to eradicate them now thanks to CRISPR genetic editing.

or will there be a sci-fi twist to this thread in 20+ years? a new disease carried one of these critters trumps all other diseases we have ever faced as a species including bubonic plague, will we show sympathy if that day comes or will be embrace genetic editing fully and save our species?  

heh, weird stuff, just interesting to think about. I wonder what John Michael Godier would say about this stuff @lexluthermiester


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## oobymach (May 18, 2022)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Just make sure it was the native species youre saving - Everything else can be crushed or fed to spiders.


Can't recall why they introduced the Asian Lady Beetle (aka Stink Beetles) I think it was to combat an invasive plant but all the Stink Beetles would just migrate to the sunny side of a house and work their way indoors. I remember vacuuming hundreds of them off the windows when I was a kid. 

And it doesn't end there as CallandorWoT pointed out about mosquitoes in Hawaii, we in Canada now have Asian Giant Hornets in BC thanks probably to a cargo ship, they are known to kill entire bee populations with just one or 2 drones (it's pretty brutal, bees can't harm them and they simply go about beheading all the bees).


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## skizzo (May 18, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> What region is that again?


the technical name is "the fun zone" lol

but for real, in case that sounded super weird about checking someone for ticks.....ticks can be as small as a flake of pepper, super hard to see, and they can be on you but not attached, like they are just crawling around and haven't bit you yet. you might not be able to feel or see them on you at this point. so it is serious to have a partner take a look to make sure you don't got one on the back of your neck or awkward spot in your arm pit, anywhere it may be hard to see or reach. gotta check the dog every time he comes back inside, hes such a good boy, I tell him "belly rub?!" and gives me a good opportunity to check him over before he does something like lays down on our bed and a couple ticks meander off of him and setup a stake out on our pillows waiting to munch on us overnight.

as a reference to how small they can be, this is a pic I saved from 2 years ago and is the smallest tick I have ever seen. so small it's not even in focus. that is my index finger it is on for size comparison. another one that buried itself into my leg. their bodies swell up as they suck up more blood from you the longer they feed on you so this lil guy at least got caught quickly. I could see this one since it was on my leg, but if it was on my back for ex I'd never know until it was too late. Here's where it is good to have a loved one give you a good look over to make sure you're tick free


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

oobymach said:


> Frogs, toads, and amphibians rely on insect populations


Not ticks though.  Even we don't eat that shit.

My feelings is where mosquitos are native you probably need them.  The rest of that crap?  Nothing eats it, they can die.



CallandorWoT said:


> or will there be a sci-fi twist to this thread in 20+ years? a new disease carried one of these critters trumps all other diseases we have ever faced as a species including bubonic plague, will we show sympathy if that day comes or will be embrace genetic editing fully and save our species?


All I can say about that is reality isn't likely to mimic a stellaris game.



skizzo said:


> take note, these little pricks, I mean ticks, were not a problem until like maybe 15 years ago. At least in the region I live in, it is different in other regions of the USA and I'm sure the world also.


I hate to even say this due to the attention it will attract, but tick populations exploding is legit due to global warming.  As such, it will probably only get worse.


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## FreedomEclipse (May 18, 2022)

oobymach said:


> Can't recall why they introduced the Asian Lady Beetle (aka Stink Beetles) I think it was to combat an invasive plant but all the Stink Beetles would just migrate to the sunny side of a house and work their way indoors. I remember vacuuming hundreds of them off the windows when I was a kid.



They'll also give you a nasty nip if you pick them up too! f**k'em!


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## lexluthermiester (May 18, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> I wonder what John Michael Godier would say about this stuff @lexluthermiester


Don't think he'd take this subject on. Not his area of experience, though I could be wrong.. He's funny like that sometimes.


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## eidairaman1 (May 18, 2022)

Shrek said:


> Does that include vaccines?
> 
> I don't want to get political here.


I wasn't getting political



FreedomEclipse said:


> Just make sure it was the native species youre saving - Everything else can be crushed or fed to spiders.


Those Lady beetles stick to hard pallette of dog mouths even.


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## the54thvoid (May 18, 2022)

Thread cleaned. Stick to the topic. This is not a covid thread.


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## Nordic (May 18, 2022)

The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) is a broad epistemological, philosophical and legal approach to innovations with potential for causing harm when extensive scientific knowledge on the matter is lacking. It emphasizes caution, pausing and review before leaping into new innovations that may prove disastrous.






						Precautionary principle - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Ferrum Master (May 18, 2022)

The point relies in the fact we have influenced the ecosystem at such scale already killing species and braking natural balance...

It really does not matter, actually we already do artificial population controls to maintain some specific specie survival there is no other way, you will not bring it back. We have to take part in controlling the environment.

It is just another control tool, as any other. If you use it wisely it will do good, overuse it and it will do harm, like basically anything. We are no specialists, but usually and empty space ain't left, if we kill ticks some other species will take its place, just like crows.


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## ratirt (May 18, 2022)

Humans should stop interfering with natural cause of things, thinking they can make it better. Flora and Fauna chain should not be interrupted since that can cause nothing but disasters.
Due to global warming, the insects numbers are increasing every year and that causes problems due to mutation since higher temperatures are present in areas that have never seen those temps. Winters are not as harsh as they were lets say 15 years ago thus not wiping most of them. Wanna fix things with insects and everything else? You need to limit the pollution and prevent global warming to accelerate.


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## Space Lynx (May 18, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Don't think he'd take this subject on. Not his area of experience, though I could be wrong..


I've heard him talk about genetic editing thought experiments before. Not in this context though I admit.



ratirt said:


> Humans should stop interfering with natural cause of things, thinking they can make it better. Flora and Fauna chain should not be interrupted since that can cause nothing but disasters.
> Due to global warming, the insects numbers are increasing every year and that causes problems due to mutation since higher temperatures are present in areas that have never seen those temps. Winters are not as harsh as they were lets say 15 years ago thus not wiping most of them. Wanna fix things with insects and everything else? You need to limit the pollution and prevent global warming to accelerate.



I mean there are some things we literally had to control like wild pigs and deer, because they were getting out of hand and destroying entire ecosystems due to their overpopulation. I also don't think it is natural this many midges/ticks/fleas/mosquitoes exist, its similar story as the deer and wild pigs, we may actually be obligated to control it... I just don't know enough about it.









						Justin Bieber’s Reveal Shows Why Lyme Disease Is Often Misdiagnosed
					

The singer revealed he's received a diagnosis of Lyme disease. He's bringing attention to the condition's persistent symptoms that can affect physical and mental health — even after treatment with antibiotics.




					www.healthline.com
				




I know it seems a bit silly, but this article on Justin Bieber getting lyme disease is fairly interesting. It's important to note some of the stories, how many people get lyme disease, but then just get dismissed by doctors cause the testing simply isn't there for it. Lyme disease is very dangerous and can really mess you up for many years.

I say screw the ticks personally. As @R-T-B mentioned not even frogs eat them, what good are they seriously. I would want to observe if wild birds in forested areas, how much of their diet in a broad sense comes from ticks... if its a small enough number, its probably good for ticks to go, even for the birds due to possibility of disease spreading and viruses through the blood in the ticks.

I doubt we will ever know the full truth of how massive Avian Bird Flu outbreaks begin, but if I were to gamble money, I'd say it has its origins in ticks/mosquitoes/fleas like most other diseases, and our society can't handle millions of chickens and turkeys being culled... which has happened a few times now due to outbreaks.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

Ticks literally will engorge themselves on Deer in clusters where I live and suck all the blood out of them.  I shit you not.  We end up with mummified deer corpses covered in ticks.

It's not natural at all, and I say screw em.


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## Ferrum Master (May 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I say screw em.



I hate those things also... those are one of the rare deadly things where I live.


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## Space Lynx (May 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Ticks literally will engorge themselves on Deer in clusters where I live and suck all the blood out of them.  I shit you not.  We end up with mummified deer corpses covered in ticks.
> 
> It's not natural at all, and I say screw em.



You have motivated me, I agree, I say let the engineers do the same to ticks as they are currently doing to mosquitoes, reduce the population as much as possible, fuck'em. I can't enjoy reading a book under a tree these days because there are so many ticks. I'd say eradicate them, not just reduce the population. fuck ticks


----------



## Endymio (May 18, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Killing off wildlife hasn't often worked out well for the environment


You couldn't possibly be more wrong.  In Europe in the Middle Ages, one of the leading causes of death was by bear, wolf, boar or other wild animal attack.  And less than 100 years ago, Indian tigers were still killing and eating a thousand people a year -- often small children, snatched directly from their homes.  Even smaller animals such as foxes, stoats, weasels, civets, deer --  could indirectly cause death through  malnourishment and even starvation through herd predation and crop destruction.   Insect infestations were once so feared for their ability to destroy crops that they were considered deadly plagues from God himself.

The entire reason you have plenty of food and free time today to sling a backpack and safely roam through the "nurturing trails of nature" today is because of how much of the original wildlife we've killed.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> You couldn't possibly be more wrong.  In Europe in the Middle Ages, one of the leading causes of death was by bear, wolf, boar or other wild animal attack.  And less than 100 years ago, Indian tigers were still killing and eating a thousand people a year -- often small children, snatched directly from their homes.  Even smaller animals such as foxes, stoats, weasels, civets, deer --  could indirectly cause death through  malnourishment and even starvation through herd predation and crop destruction.   Insect infestations were once so feared for their ability to destroy crops that they were considered deadly plagues from God himself.
> 
> The entire reason you have plenty of food and free time today to sling a backpack and safely roam through the "nurturing trails of nature" today is because of how much of the original wildlife we've killed.


So , your perspective on win = humans have easier survival due to there being no bears , dyre wolves or big cats anymore, great meanwhile those human things have overpopulated and fu£#@d the world.

Perspective, Get some.

Couldn't be more wrong my arse.

I'm not saying culls can't be necessary, but stating they're only a positive is pure asssssss.

The wild boar and dear wouldn't overpopulate if there predictors still existed , but they were nasty to humans too, so f£#@ em.


----------



## Endymio (May 18, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> So , your perspective on win = humans have easier survival due to there being no bears , dyre wolves or big cats anymore, great meanwhile those human things have overpopulated and fu£#@d the world.


Why do you hate your own species so much?  If you think the world is so "f^#d" up, try living as it was a thousand years ago, when "Mother" Nature either froze you, burned you, starved you, or diseased you. Most children died before age ten, and the only way you had any chance of surviving was through back-breaking labor 12 or more hours a day.      Altering the environment for mankind's benefit is the entire reason environmentalist today can hop on social media and spew misinformed misanthropic tripe about humanity's effect on the planet.



Nordic said:


> The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) is a broad epistemological, philosophical and legal approach to innovations with potential for causing harm


Several European nations tried that principle when the internal combustion engine was first developed.  Some actually attempted to ban it entirely, as being far too dangerous for the common man to possess.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> Why do you hate your own species so much?  If you think the world is so "f^#d" up, try living as it was a thousand years ago, when "Mother" Nature either froze you, burned you, starved you, or diseased you. Most children died before age ten, and the only way you had any chance of surviving was through back-breaking labor 12 or more hours a day.      Altering the environment for mankind's benefit is the entire reason environmentalist today can hop on social media and spew misinformed misanthropic tripe about humanity's effect on the planet.
> 
> 
> Several European nations tried that principle when the internal combustion engine was first developed.  Some actually attempted to ban it entirely, as being far too dangerous for the common man to possess.


No hate , just wanted to present a alternative perspective.

Plus you said I couldn't be more wrong, I disagree with that, depends on perspective to me , we could just turn the planet into full on human land fuck nature too.

Only chicken and cows allowed , but we won't will we.

Do we need dolphins or orka or horses or dogs, no , should they go in the bin?!.


----------



## Endymio (May 18, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Do we need dolphins or orka or horses or dogs, no ,


We're not talking about dolphins or dogs, but mosquitos,  a creature that causes nearly 250 million cases of malaria a year, and over half a million deaths.  Counting all the other diseases that mosquitos spread, and the toll approaches the height of the Covid pandemic -- and it happens year after year after year.   By your logic, we shouldn't even be attempting to eliminate the Covid virus either.  After all, it's part of nature right?  And therefore we shouldn't, as you say, "put it in the bin".

I'd also like to point out that the only reason dogs exist is because man altered the environment, by genetically modifying wolves -- through selective breeding -- into a more useful species.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> We're not talking about dolphins or dogs, but mosquitos,  a creature that causes nearly 250 million cases of malaria a year, and over half a million deaths.  Counting all the other diseases that mosquitos spread, and the toll approaches the height of the Covid pandemic -- and it happens year after year after year.   By your logic, we shouldn't even be attempting to eliminate the Covid virus either.  After all, it's part of nature right?  And therefore we shouldn't, as you say, "put it in the bin".
> 
> I'd also like to point out that the only reason dogs exist is because man altered the environment, by genetically modifying wolves -- through selective breeding -- into a more useful species.


By your logic why are we leaving rat's alone then or cockroaches, where do we stop.

Again though see my earlier posts , I would just like to KNOW that adequate research was done into the chain of effect's.

No offense but by a certified professional group of diverse specialist scientists, not just one or just because some don't like tick's, I mean I also don't like tick's too.

But I don't do absolutes , I can be wrong and I learn every day, I just hope the likes of you and these scientists realise they're in the same boat.

Perspectively intelligent, can still be thick as f£#@ , just oblivious to it.


----------



## looniam (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> You couldn't possibly be more wrong.  In Europe in the Middle Ages, one of the leading causes of death was by bear, wolf, boar or other wild animal attack.  And less than 100 years ago, Indian tigers were still killing and eating a thousand people a year -- often small children, snatched directly from their homes.  Even smaller animals such as foxes, stoats, weasels, civets, deer --  could indirectly cause death through  malnourishment and even starvation through herd predation and crop destruction.   Insect infestations were once so feared for their ability to destroy crops that they were considered deadly plagues from God himself.
> 
> The entire reason you have plenty of food and free time today to sling a backpack and safely roam through the "nurturing trails of nature" today is because of how much of the original wildlife we've killed.


leading cause of death in the middle ages was the (black) plague, so if you want to blame something - that would be fleas with rats being an accomplish. and in the 1930s india did reach a historic average of 1000 death for 3 years but usually avg 200/year.

humans are the master of nothing and needs nature to master them. had a biology prof perfectly explain how humans face more problems the further they expand their habitat/territory, not just with other animals but with the planet itself - acting in defense of an invading organism.


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## Endymio (May 18, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> By your logic why are we leaving rat's alone then or cockroaches


We're not.  Rats killed nearly 1/3 the population of Europe, through spreading plague-bearing fleas -- not to mention regularly wiping out entire villages when a horde managed to destroy their winter grain supply.  Rats were so endemic, in fact, that professional rat-catcher was a common profession in Europe, up until a couple hundred years ago.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> We're not.  Rats killed nearly 1/3 the population of Europe, through spreading plague-bearing fleas -- not to mention regularly wiping out entire villages when a horde managed to destroy their winter grain supply.  Rats were so endemic, in fact, that professional rat-catcher was a common profession in Europe, up until a couple hundred years ago.


That's nothing like cryspr based genetic genocide though is it.

Also just imagine if those plagues had not happened 7.5 billion could be exponentially higher and in a food crisis.

Human Life is so precious is it , not to everyone (and I don't mean me).


----------



## Shrek (May 18, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> I wasn't getting political



I didn't mean to suggest you were, just that I didn't want to go that route.



ratirt said:


> Humans should stop interfering with natural cause of things, thinking they can make it better.



While I agree, I am also aware that most of us would not be alive if we had not

Fertilizers
Insecticides
Medicine
Transportation


----------



## bonehead123 (May 18, 2022)

This is an extremely slippery slope.  Please consider the following questions:

A)  Who gets to decide what genetic alterations/manipulations are ok and which ones are not ? Where do we draw the line ?

B)  Should there be any positive outcomes from these alterations (unlikely), who decides which ones are freely shared with all of mankind, or which ones are kept under wraps until some scumbag scientist, organization, or politician figures out how to make money from it, _*or worse*_, turn it into a weapon ?

C)  What happens when something goes wrong, and how will we hold those responsible for the mistakes accountable.....Prison ? Death ? public tarring & feathering ? And who decides how & when to enforce those penalties ?

D)  Who gets to decide how to go about correcting/reversing the mistakes, or even if this would even be feasible without causing more problems ?

This list could be way, way longer, because there are undoubtedly many more questions that need to be addressed, but these should suffice for now


----------



## Endymio (May 18, 2022)

bonehead123 said:


> This is an extremely slippery slope.


If you're speaking of the slippery slope of banning technology -- or worse, information itself -- under the guise of "protecting the people", then I agree.



bonehead123 said:


> B)  Should there be any positive outcomes from these alterations (unlikely), who decides which ones are freely shared with all of mankind....


ROFL, you find it "unlikely" that the field of bio-engineering is "unlikely" to generate any positive outcomes?  The field has far more potential than the microchip.   



bonehead123 said:


> ...who decides which ones are freely shared with all of mankind, or which ones are kept under wraps until some scumbag scientist, organization, or politician figures out how to make money from it, _*or worse*_, turn it into a weapon ?


Who decided which benefits of electronics and computing technology were "freely shared with all mankind" and which were sold for profit?   Who decided -- lets all shudder with horror now -- to allow microchips to be used in weaponry?  Should we retroactively ban everything from microchips to transistor radios?


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> If you're speaking of the slippery slope of banning technology -- or worse, information itself -- under the guise of "protecting the people", then I agree.
> 
> 
> ROFL, you find it "unlikely" that the field of bio-engineering is "unlikely" to generate any positive outcomes?  The field has far more potential than the microchip.
> ...


Who brought up electronics, is it relevant, I don't think so.

Nor do I think even one of your whataboutisms has Any merit.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 18, 2022)

bonehead123 said:


> A)  Who gets to decide what genetic alterations/manipulations are ok and which ones are not ? Where do we draw the line ?



there is an easy way to answer all of your questions, genetically modified mosquitoes to reduce their population have already been released, so your questions are a little late to the party lol

it will always be government who gives the ok to go ahead on these things, it won't be private companies.

the answer though is government, for each of your questions.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 18, 2022)

The black death may not have been caused by rats, but by us.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42690577.amp


----------



## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> You couldn't possibly be more wrong.  In Europe in the Middle Ages, one of the leading causes of death was by bear, wolf, boar or other wild animal attack.  And less than 100 years ago, Indian tigers were still killing and eating a thousand people a year -- often small children, snatched directly from their homes.  Even smaller animals such as foxes, stoats, weasels, civets, deer --  could indirectly cause death through  malnourishment and even starvation through herd predation and crop destruction.   Insect infestations were once so feared for their ability to destroy crops that they were considered deadly plagues from God himself.
> 
> The entire reason you have plenty of food and free time today to sling a backpack and safely roam through the "nurturing trails of nature" today is because of how much of the original wildlife we've killed.


Humans != the environment


----------



## the54thvoid (May 18, 2022)

Endymio said:


> You couldn't possibly be more wrong.  *In Europe in the Middle Ages, one of the leading causes of death was by bear, wolf, boar or other wild animal attack*.  And less than 100 years ago, Indian tigers were still killing and eating a thousand people a year -- often small children, snatched directly from their homes.  Even smaller animals such as foxes, stoats, weasels, civets, deer --  could indirectly cause death through  malnourishment and even starvation through herd predation and crop destruction.   Insect infestations were once so feared for their ability to destroy crops that they were considered deadly plagues from God himself.
> 
> The entire reason you have plenty of food and free time today to sling a backpack and safely roam through the "nurturing trails of nature" today is because of how much of the original wildlife we've killed.



Bolded part is patently untrue. In a science forum we use evidence and that, unfortunately, comes from what evidence is recorded. In that scenario, wild animals are so far down the list it's insignificant.

Plague, childbirth, disease, famine, etc, etc are the historically recorded issues--and they're well known--they still kill plenty of people today in third world countries. Hunting did kill people but it's considered the dangers of hunting itself (falling from horse, self-inflcited wounds) were as bad as being mauled by a stag.

However, yes, *bugs* kill many, many people (through the disease they spread).

Just two sources I could quickly find.






						Plague, Famine & Sudden Death: 10 Dramatic Dangers Of The Medieval Period | HistoryExtra
					

It was one of the most transformative eras in history, but the Middle Ages were also fraught with danger. Here, historian Dr. Katharine Olson reveals ten of the period's biggest risks.



					www.historyextra.com
				






			https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1879981721000590
		



> Infant and child death due to varied causes had the greatest impact upon population and health, followed by a range of chronic/infectious diseases, with tuberculosis probably being the next most significant one.
> Among medieval health problems, we estimate that plague was probably 7th–10th in overall importance. Although lethal and disruptive, it struck only periodically and had less cumulative long-term human consequences than chronically endemic conditions (e.g. bacterial and viral infections causing infant and child death, tuberculosis, and other pathogens).


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## Aquinus (May 18, 2022)

My personal take is that ethical considerations aside, disrupting the bottom of the food chain seems like a bad idea. Those effects ripple through the ecosystem in ways that aren't always easy to understand or predict. To me, that seems like a recipe for a catastrophe.


----------



## 80251 (May 18, 2022)

Ticks, fleas and mosquitoes are clearly an important species


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Bolded part is patently untrue. In a science forum we use evidence and that, unfortunately, comes from what evidence is recorded. In that scenario, wild animals are so far down the list it's insignificant.
> 
> Plague, childbirth, disease, famine, etc, etc are the historically recorded issues--and they're well known--they still kill plenty of people today in third world countries. Hunting did kill people but it's considered the dangers of hunting itself (falling from horse, self-inflcited wounds) were as bad as being mauled by a stag.
> 
> ...


Personally I'm fully aware of the death toll by insects.
I don't doubt that part at all.
I am not sure what happens if.

A.  No one is killed by bite infection where does that place us in population growth terms.

B. Are they sure that killing off tics will not damage ecosystems we also need.

A won't be considered because , money.

B. Better be proven IMHO.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 18, 2022)

Tigger said:


> The black death may not have been caused by rats, but by us.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42690577.amp



even if this is true, it doesn't change the point of this thread, because that article you linked still states "human fleas and lice were the cause", so whether or not your article is true does not change the question of this thread in the slightest, I appreciate the article though, extra input is always welcome.



Aquinus said:


> My personal take is that ethical considerations aside, disrupting the bottom of the food chain seems like a bad idea. Those effects ripple through the ecosystem in ways that aren't always easy to understand or predict. To me, that seems like a recipe for a catastrophe.



I understand what you are saying, but what is your evidence that they are indeed a big part of the food chain? Also, it doesn't account for their populations being out of control, somethings like the deer, we have to thin the herd, the logic is no different here, there never used to be this many ticks or mosquitoes, and fleas, what eats them and what percentage of the diet do they make of the thing that eats? Generic statements like yours do not help me try to find an answer to my ultimate question and the reason I made this thread.

And what of Hawaii who never had mosquitoes for most of its history and got along just fine for thousands of years?


----------



## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> My personal take is that ethical considerations aside, disrupting the bottom of the food chain seems like a bad idea. Those effects ripple through the ecosystem in ways that aren't always easy to understand or predict. To me, that seems like a recipe for a catastrophe.


The question is are they really the bottom of the foodchain?  At least for ticks/fleas, I know of no natural predators.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 18, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> even if this is true, it doesn't change the point of this thread, because that article you linked still states "human fleas and lice were the cause", so whether or not your article is true does not change the question of this thread in the slightest, I appreciate the article though, extra input is always welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Likely to be mostly bird's I would imagine, they're getting rarer I heard.


----------



## Tetras (May 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The question is are they really the bottom of the foodchain?  At least for ticks/fleas, I know of no natural predators.


spiders and lizards'll eat them


----------



## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

Tetras said:


> spiders and lizards'll eat them


Once gorged with blood a lot of things will take an opurtunistic snack on a tick, but I'd need a source for anything seriously eating fleas or ungorged ticks.


----------



## looniam (May 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Once gorged with blood a lot of things will take an opurtunistic snack on a tick, but I'd need a source for anything seriously eating fleas or ungorged ticks.











						What Animals Eat Ticks? [Natural Predators] – Bug Lord
					

Ticks are blood-sucking, parasitic arachnids that feed on the blood of animals, including people. In the short term, ticks are a massive pain and can cause




					buglord.com
				






> *Frogs *and toads eat flies in cartoons, but they’re not very picky in real life. They’ll eat plenty of small insects, and also arachnids like spiders and ticks. With certain toads, engorged female ticks have even been used as bait to capture them!
> 
> Frogs aren’t very picky about their diet, but they are a bit picky about _where_ they eat. Frogs are found in and around water, whereas toads tend to spend a bit more time on land. So frogs are a bit less likely to eat ticks unless they find them looking for hosts by on foliage close to water. Toads stand a better chance of running into a tick since they will go inland a bit.


sorry, i just couldn't help myself.  

E: on a seriously note i do know chickens, who are a constant hunt, will eat any insect it sees.


----------



## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

looniam said:


> What Animals Eat Ticks? [Natural Predators] – Bug Lord
> 
> 
> Ticks are blood-sucking, parasitic arachnids that feed on the blood of animals, including people. In the short term, ticks are a massive pain and can cause
> ...


I mean yeah when gorged with the blood of the living who would be able to resist that delicious meat nugget?  But that's not really what I was asking.

Repent.


----------



## looniam (May 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I mean yeah when gorged with the blood of the living who would be able to resist that delicious meat nugget?  But that's not really what I was asking.
> 
> Repent.


why i edited about chickens, they are on a never ending hunt for insects - a couple together is bad news for your cousin the toad. 

squirrels and chipmunks are very surprising . . imagine, eating whats eating you  . . . just saying.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 18, 2022)

looniam said:


> What Animals Eat Ticks? [Natural Predators] – Bug Lord
> 
> 
> Ticks are blood-sucking, parasitic arachnids that feed on the blood of animals, including people. In the short term, ticks are a massive pain and can cause
> ...



on the note of chickens eating ticks, vast vast majority of chickens do not eat ticks, as we have a farm infrastructure for them now, and in fact we are our best to keep chickens from coming into contact with the wild for fear of diseases causing mass cullings and in turn mass profit margins as our society depends on the chicken not getting sick. 

as for frogs, my guess is there diet would consist of flies/mosquitoes much more often than ticks, ticks are buried in the grass, frogs don't seem to hunt in those places usually. i don't buy it, even if it is true, its probably 5% or less of the frogs overall lifetime diet.



Tetras said:


> spiders and lizards'll eat them



again, I would need to know the percentage of the overall lifetime diet that makes up the spider and lizard in a general sense, loads of other bugs that they eat... my guess is spiders don't go hunting in grass... spiders make webs and catch other stuff 90% of the time I expect.

lizards I'm not certain of, but my guess is very low percentage of their diet.


----------



## Tetras (May 18, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> again, I would need to know the percentage of the overall lifetime diet that makes up the spider and lizard in a general sense, loads of other bugs that they eat... my guess is spiders don't go hunting in grass... spiders make webs and catch other stuff 90% of the time I expect.
> 
> lizards I'm not certain of, but my guess is very low percentage of their diet.



There's lots of different types of spiders (I've been to Australia  ), some do hunt on the ground and on grass. Apparently some spiders find ticks very tasty. There's a section on predators of ticks in this article which is quite interesting, but nothing so specific about their diet as you asked.



> The efﬁciency of predators in controlling tick populations in different habitats varies and may reach up to 100% (67,131,210,211). In Kenya, predation was lower in tall grass areas than in short grass areas (144). In Texas, predation was two to eight times higher in open areas than in a post-oak thicket pasture habitat (67). In Russia, up to 100% of the ticks were preyed on in a woody area, whereas about half were in small open areas and none in intensive pasture or agricultural areas (114)





> Nine genera of spiders from six families were reported to prey on ﬁve hard tick and two soft tick genera (8,19, 38, 43,59,114,138, 144, 183,192,203,211). Teutana triangulosa spiders prefer Rhipicephalus sanguin-eusto ﬂies. In a garden heavily infested with R. sanguineus, the webs contained only tick cadavers (183).





			https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Samish/publication/13298189_Pathogens_and_predators_of_ticks_and_their_potential_in_biological_control/links/548c3b780cf214269f1ddda5/Pathogens-and-predators-of-ticks-and-their-potential-in-biological-control.pdf
		


Not sure where to find precise information on their diet, I guess it would be an article about spiders, or lizards, rather than ticks.


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## Bomby569 (May 19, 2022)

By the way they live it would really hard if not impossible to eliminate ticks or fleas. Mosquitos in an area sure, it's been done, but no meaningfull to ensure you get to all of them. These are very small animals that don't live in clusters.


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## Mr McC (May 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The question is are they really the bottom of the foodchain?  At least for ticks/fleas, I know of no natural predators.


Lizards, snakes, frogs, toads, a wide variety of insects, such as ladybirds and fire ants, nematode worms and a number of spiders.


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## Bomby569 (May 19, 2022)

Mr McC said:


> Lizards, snakes, frogs, toads, a wide variety of insects, such as ladybirds and fire ants, nematode worms and a number of spiders.


and birds, they love them


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## Count von Schwalbe (May 19, 2022)

this... 


Bomby569 said:


> By the way they live it would really hard if not impossible to eliminate ticks or fleas. Mosquitos in an area sure, it's been done, but no meaningfull to ensure you get to all of them. These are very small animals that don't live in clusters.


Most of these insects travel surprisingly little, even if they can fly. The current attempts at controlling mosquitoes would be an Area Denial System, even with 100% success rate.


----------



## eidairaman1 (May 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The question is are they really the bottom of the foodchain?  At least for ticks/fleas, I know of no natural predators.











						7 Natural Predators of Fleas - FleasControl.com
					

Controlling fleas in the home setting is not a walk in the park. These wingless jumpy creatures can easily hide in hard-to-reach cracks and crevices to avoid pesticides. When in the pupal stage, they can hibernate or become dormant for even one year until you … 7 Natural Predators of Fleas read...




					www.fleascontrol.com
				












						19 Animals that Eat Ticks: Natural Tick Predators
					

Getting rid of ticks is easier than you might think because there are many animals that eat ticks. Some of these animals are natural predators who rely on ticks for their survival, but there are




					thebuginator.com
				












						What Eats Mosquitoes - A Big List of Mosquito Predators
					






					pestpush.com
				








__





						Natural Enemies Of Mosquitoes – List Of Mosquito Predators | BugOfff.com
					





					bugofff.com


----------



## ratirt (May 19, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I didn't mean to suggest you were, just that I didn't want to go that route.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well there is a drawback obviously. I'm not saying we should move to a cave and live there but there is a lot we can do to make it better. The problem is global and it will stay global. Global warming correlates with industry but with poverty as well. Unfortunately we are not good mitigating the latter one either. Nobody cares about Earth when they struggle. Some are just ignorant and think this is the new generation's to come problem. I think people are not ready for anything to make it better. Especially when they being drive by fame, wealth, sick ambitions etc.
Some things will never change but when they do, it will be too late.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 19, 2022)

Well my answer to the question would be, wipe them out by genetic modification or whatever it takes. They are parasites and do they really serve any purpose even if they do have enemies or are eaten by other creatures. Parasites are just that and should be destroyed.
If you have ever had a infestation of animal fleas, you will surely understand.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 19, 2022)

I think we should focus on disease eradication rather than species eradication.  There's far fewer unintended consequences and we can control for them in our own species.  Messing with other species, we're likely not going to know how bad it is until it is too late (e.g. decline of species that subsist on them that aren't well monitored).  We're already in the middlle of the 6th mass extinction event; we shouldn't be trying to accelerate it.

Moreover, developing better treatments for diseases in humans serves as a building block to treat other diseases.  We gain a lot from solving those problems where we likely get more harm than benefit from eradicating a species.


The best way for humans to reduce mosquito problems is to prohibit standing water where we reside.  No standing water = no mosquitos.

Also fun fact: Mosquitos can only spread diseases they themselves can contract.  Pretty wild that mammals share enough genetic code with mosquitos for mosquitos to impact mammals at all.  Probably also why the viruses they spread are particularly bad: they tend to go after the really basic building blocks of life. Malaria is a mosquito-borne parasite, not a virus. Dengue is a mosquito-borne virus.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 19, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The best way for humans to reduce mosquito problems is to prohibit standing water where we reside. No standing water = no mosquitos.



Try doing this is third world countries like pakistan and india though. They are not the best places imo don't want to offend anyone but from what i have seen on tv and the net they are not the best managed countries, and i dare say there are more. Trying to get these countries to do what it takes to eradicate these pests is not the easiest thing to do.


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## Bomby569 (May 19, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Try doing this is third world countries like pakistan and india though. They are not the best places imo don't want to offend anyone but from what i have seen on tv and the net they are not the best managed countries, and i dare say there are more. Trying to get these countries to do what it takes to eradicate these pests is not the easiest thing to do.



First there is the temperature problem, it's not like "rich countries" don't have this problem because they are richer.
Even in very well managed countries all it takes is a little pool of water, in a forgoten container after watering the lawn for example. A pool of water after the rain. Etc...
Living in urban aereas helps of course. And keeping the animals you eat in far away farms also helps. Not having fruit trees near you. Etc

Most of these are not about rich vs poor, good hygiene vs bad, it's the way people live.

NY was/is famous for the bed bugs problem for example.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 19, 2022)

On that topic, saw this not that long ago and the title really says it all "design mosquitos out of cities"









The same philosophy works for all vermin.  They all like specific things.  Don't want them? Don't do those things.


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## Space Lynx (May 19, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> this...
> 
> Most of these insects travel surprisingly little, even if they can fly. The current attempts at controlling mosquitoes would be an Area Denial System, even with 100% success rate.



I disagree, the genetically modified mosquitoes that make females only give birth to males has already worked surprisingly well in large swaths of Florida. Sure, it would take thousands of targeted areas to reduce overall population, but you don't need to eliminate all of them, just thin the herd so to speak... so we can you know... go sit under a tree and a read a book without being bitten constantly.



FordGT90Concept said:


> On that topic, saw this not that long ago and the title really says it all "design mosquitos out of cities"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will watch this soon, but I don't live in a city, I live in a small town, and the mosquitoes are horrible in late summer evenings, can't even enjoy the nice weather cause they are so many.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 19, 2022)

Find the pools of standing water around your place and make sure they can drain.


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## Space Lynx (May 19, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Find the pools of standing water around your place and make sure they can drain.



I live a few streets over from a few ponds. I don't think it matters what I do really, even in dry summers with no standing water I remember mosquitoes being very annoying.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 19, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Find the pools of standing water around your place and make sure they can drain.



Yeah, in cities you can absolutely minimise their 'hatching' grounds. Just takes some vigilance.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 19, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Yeah, in cities you can absolutely minimise their 'hatching' grounds. Just takes some vigilance.



I know they used to hire people in my small town to spray with chemicals hatching grounds, but I think in recent years they stopped doing it, not sure why. I know it paid crap, so maybe they just couldn't find anyone to hire. I mean why do that for $11 an hr, when you go to one of the many warehouses desperate for people that pay $23 an hr, no education and no experience needed. /shrug


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## R-T-B (May 19, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> 7 Natural Predators of Fleas - FleasControl.com
> 
> 
> Controlling fleas in the home setting is not a walk in the park. These wingless jumpy creatures can easily hide in hard-to-reach cracks and crevices to avoid pesticides. When in the pupal stage, they can hibernate or become dormant for even one year until you … 7 Natural Predators of Fleas read...
> ...


Ok, so there are predators.  I guess the real question then is how emeshed in the food chain they are.



FordGT90Concept said:


> The same philosophy works for all vermin. They all like specific things. Don't want them? Don't do those things.


In the case of mosquitos it's basically "don't have exposed standing water" which while practical in the city maybe simply can't be done everywhere.


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## Deleted member 24505 (May 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Ok, so there are predators.  I guess the real question then is how emeshed in the food chain they are.
> 
> 
> In the case of mosquitos it's basically "don't have exposed standing water" which while practical in the city maybe simply can't be done everywhere.



In countries with lots of rain, pakistan/india it is not humanely possibly to get rid of all wet areas unless they have the will of god at their disposal


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## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2022)

You don't want to get rid of all of the standing water everywhere because many species require it.  Just in places where there's a cost vs. benefit to doing so (especially urban areas).  If water needs to be retained, store it a sealed structure or agitate it to make it unattractive to mosquitos.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> You don't want to get rid of all of the standing water everywhere because many species require it.  Just in places where there's a cost vs. benefit to doing so (especially urban areas).  If water needs to be retained, store it a sealed structure or agitate it to make it unattractive to mosquitos.



In residential areas, it's far easier to cover water sources etc. That helps reduce the pest population in a larger human population. Same as keeping rats at bay - keep rubbish stored in bins, keep areas tidy etc. Obviously things get tricky in rural/wild areas. But then, that's nature.


----------



## Massdeth (May 20, 2022)

I dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but if you really want to scare yourself and think of all the what if's go look up who Eric Traub was and his back history. He created lymes disease as a early bioweapon. The man was a Nazi monster that came here with Paperclip.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

Massdeth said:


> He created lymes disease as a early bioweapon.


Can't validate this bit and the bits on lyme disease origins I can find in mainstream science seem to dispute that possibility:









						Ancient History of Lyme Disease in North America Revealed with Bacterial Genomes
					

A team of researchers led by the Yale School of Public Health has found that the Lyme disease bacterium is ancient in North America, circulating silently in




					medicine.yale.edu
				




He probably was a baddie, lots of them in paperclip, but just trying to find the facts here.


----------



## Ferrum Master (May 20, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Yeah, in cities you can absolutely minimise their 'hatching' grounds. Just takes some vigilance.



Have you ever taken a trip in sewers and water tunnels under the city? You might have have a surprise Alien-esque sights there as exactly as many invasive species spend their winter there... 

You cannot disable and dry up those places.


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## Deleted member 24505 (May 20, 2022)

Massdeth said:


> I dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but if you really want to scare yourself and think of all the what if's go look up who Eric Traub was and his back history. He created lymes disease as a early bioweapon. The man was a Nazi monster that came here with Paperclip.



It's Erich Traub btw 



R-T-B said:


> Can't validate this bit and the bits on lyme disease origins I can find in mainstream science seem to dispute that possibility:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's possible Truab had something to do with Lyme disease which "could" have been created on plum island in the US and spread by modified ticks.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

Tigger said:


> It's possible Truab had something to do with Lyme disease which "could" have been created on plum island in the US and spread by modified ticks.


Possible is a lot different than passing something off as a fact as was done above.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Possible is a lot different than passing something off as a fact as was done above.


That's why i said "could" have. Little google and Traub was on plum island it seems after the war via paperclip, but couldn't find nothing definitive re link to lyme disease creation by him.


----------



## Endymio (May 20, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Who brought up electronics, is it relevant, I don't think so.


You've heard of the concept of "learning from history", I presume?  When evaluating whether we should ban or embrace future technology, it is quite relevant to consider that in light of past technologies.  An example even more relevant than electronics is the internal combustion engine.  Soon after its invention, there was a strong movement in certain nations to ban it outright, as being far too dangerous, using the same arguments and excuses being used against genetic engineering today.   The internal combution engine certainly was dangerous -- it kills over one million people every year -- but would you prefer we had banned it instead?


R-T-B said:


> Humans != the environment


Well, you've certainly illustrated the inherent fallacy in modern-day environmentalism.  Humans are no more nor less a part of the environment than any deer, whale, or spotted owl.  And -- to any sane human at least -- we're the most important part of it.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

Endymio said:


> And -- to any sane human at least -- we're the most important part of it.



We're the most important part in so much as we have the power to maintain and protect the environment we live within. 

I'd argue there are other creatures more vital to the environment, such as the pollinators that are part of the lifecycle of plants.


----------



## Endymio (May 20, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Messing with other species, we're likely not going to know how bad it is until it is too late ...The best way for humans to reduce mosquito problems is to prohibit standing water where we reside.  No standing water = no mosquitos.


So you're saying we shouldn't "mess with" mosquitos ... except by removing their ability to breed?

In any case, you're about 30 years behind on mosquito research.  Standing water is certainly helpful to their breeding cycle, but they can and do lay their eggs in everything from damp soil to tree trunks.  Some species can reproduce quite well in dry sand dunes.



the54thvoid said:


> I'd argue there are other creatures more vital to the environment, such as the pollinators that are part of the lifecycle of plants.


Given the choice -- the _required _choice -- to either eliminate all humans, or all pollinating creatures, what do you choose?   Choose wisely.   

(And, to head off the predictable response, there are a huge number of plants which reproduce asexually, or which can self-pollinate.  We won't all starve to death without honeybees and the like)


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 20, 2022)

Endymio said:


> You've heard of the concept of "learning from history", I presume?  When evaluating whether we should ban or embrace future technology, it is quite relevant to consider that in light of past technologies.  An example even more relevant than electronics is the internal combustion engine.  Soon after its invention, there was a strong movement in certain nations to ban it outright, as being far too dangerous, using the same arguments and excuses being used against genetic engineering today.   The internal combution engine certainly was dangerous -- it kills over one million people every year -- but would you prefer we had banned it instead?
> 
> Well, you've certainly illustrated the inherent fallacy in modern-day environmentalism.  Humans are no more nor less a part of the environment than any deer, whale, or spotted owl.  And -- to any sane human at least -- we're the most important part of it.


Your joking right so IMHO electronic evolution is irrelevant to a discussion on genetic manipulation of mosquito population.

And you think cars are a good argument.


They are in so much as I previously pointed out.

A Dick head sold the idea of putting lead in fuel to stop knocking, he sciences the shit and Proved it was safe.

Many years, millions of death's and On mass mental impairment later.

That SCIENTIST was wrong , and he has killed more Humans then Any other man.

Now have at genetics science men, Go.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 20, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Your joking right so IMHO electronic evolution is irrelevant to a discussion on genetic manipulation of mosquito population.
> 
> And you think cars are a good argument.
> 
> ...



not sure what this convo is all about, just wanted to say you are comparing a for profit greedy scumbag single individual with entire teams of the highest scientific minds working together in both the private and non-private sectors.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

Endymio said:


> So you're saying we shouldn't "mess with" mosquitos ... except by removing their ability to breed?
> 
> In any case, you're about 30 years behind on mosquito research.  Standing water is certainly helpful to their breeding cycle, but they can and do lay their eggs in everything from damp soil to tree trunks.  Some species can reproduce quite well in dry sand dunes.
> 
> ...



I can see where this is going, and it isn't really on topic, so I'll not go down this path of species supremacy, or what is right or wrong.

Going back to the topic, it's pretty clear humans will suffer as the climate alters to more humidity and heat, both of which suit parasite species. Even without any climate change, more humans means a greater footprint and likely more contact with such species.

Care should be taken, regardless what methods are used to minimise parasitic insects.


----------



## r9 (May 20, 2022)




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## Endymio (May 20, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> it's pretty clear humans will suffer as the climate alters to more humidity and heat, both of which suit parasite species.


It isn't clear at all, and in fact the reverse is more likely to be true.  Warmth and humidity are essential to all species, and the arguably most biodiverse period in Earth's history was the warm and wet Carboniferous Period -- a period in which atmospheric CO2 levels were some 10X higher than they are today.  In fact, the cooling and drying that ended the Carboniferous led to an ecologically devastating extinction event.

Returning to today, the average temperature of the planet now is about 57F, whereas most of the plants and animals we depend upon prefer something closer to what we ourselves do -- room temperature.   Fear-mongering environmentalists  spread the myth that only "diseases and parasites" will benefit from this more salubrious climate, but nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

Tropical parasitic species are being found in more northerly latitudes due to warming. Fish patterns are also changing with warmer waters.

A few degrees of change in geographic areas can, and does, pose a problem.


----------



## Endymio (May 20, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Tropical parasitic species are being found in more northerly latitudes due to warming. Fish patterns are also changing with warmer waters.


The incidence of parasitic disease among humans has decreased every decade since the industrial revolution began.  The sky isn't falling.   As for "fish patterns", warmer water means a larger overall fish population.  i.e. more food for all.  That's a good thing too.

As for the belief that cold, dry climates are best for us, a quick question: would you rather be dropped alone on a warm tropical island, or Antarctica?  There's a reason they built Disney World in south Florida, not Saskatchewan.  Likewise, there's also a reason the human species began in Africa, not Siberia.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 20, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> not sure what this convo is all about, just wanted to say you are comparing a for profit greedy scumbag single individual with entire teams of the highest scientific minds working together in both the private and non-private sectors.


Yeah because teams of highly scientific minds always pans out eh , you not heard of any massive f ups by them, you want proof they happen?! Start with philidermide , might be spelled incorrectly.

I work in a science based company and field, do you think I speak of something I know nothing of.

And in part I thought I was replying to other guy not you OP.


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## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

Endymio said:


> The incidence of parasitic disease among humans has decreased every decade since the industrial revolution began.  The sky isn't falling.   As for "fish patterns", warmer water means a larger overall fish population.  i.e. more food for all.  That's a good thing too.
> 
> As for the belief that cold, dry climates are best for us, a quick question: would you rather be dropped alone on a warm tropical island, or Antarctica?  There's a reason they built Disney World in south Florida, not Saskatchewan.  Likewise, there's also a reason the human species began in Africa, not Siberia.



Fleas. Ticks. Mosquitoes.

Back on track with your views on their treatment with genetic alterations to control population, please.


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## Endymio (May 20, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> teams of highly scientific minds always pans out eh , you not heard of any massive f ups by them, you want proof they happen?! Start with philidermide , might be spelled incorrectly.
> 
> I work in a science based company and field, do you think I speak of something I know nothing of.




To bring this back on subject, one thing the geological record of the earth makes clear is this: species don't last.  Mosquitos will -- with or without human intervention -- one day become extinct.  And you know what?  The earth will be just fine without them.  I'm perfectly willing to nudge us a little faster to that utopian era.

So Moderator, another poster is allowed to call me a "pos", but you instantly edit from my post a simple reference to his bad grammar used to attack me?  Delete my account from this site; I won't be returning.


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## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

Endymio said:


> To bring this back on subject, one thing the geological record of the earth makes clear is this: species don't last.  Mosquitos will -- with or without human intervention -- one day become extinct.  And you know what?  The earth will be just fine without them.  I'm perfectly willing to nudge us a little faster to that utopian era.
> 
> So Moderator, another poster is allowed to call me a "pos", but you instantly edit from my post a simple reference to his bad grammar?  Delete my account from this BS site; I won't be returning.



The 'pos' remark didn't ping on my radar. I'll deal with that. You may stay or leave. Your call.


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## Aquinus (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The question is are they really the bottom of the foodchain?  At least for ticks/fleas, I know of no natural predators.


Then you didn't do much research to find out.









						19 Animals that Eat Ticks: Natural Tick Predators
					

Getting rid of ticks is easier than you might think because there are many animals that eat ticks. Some of these animals are natural predators who rely on ticks for their survival, but there are




					thebuginator.com
				






R-T-B said:


> Ok, so there are predators. I guess the real question then is how emeshed in the food chain they are.


Probably quite a bit considering most of these species that eat ticks exist in my part of the world and we can often have quite a large tick population, but that really depends on how the winter and spring goes because there are conditions where they thrive. As I said, it's sometimes hard to understand or predict how this will impact the ecosystem which is why this is dangerous. We can make assumptions, but our assumptions very well could be wrong (or at the very least, impoverished,) because more often that not, we don't have a full picture before making these kinds of decisions because of how complicated the system is. Just my 2¢.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Then you didn't do much research to find out.


Did I say that I did?


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## Aquinus (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Did I say that I did?


You didn't have to. I was able to do a google search and provide a link in 30 seconds.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

I'm aware of the ease of which data is at our fingertips my dude.  I didn't do the search myself because sometimes, my true focus lies elsewhere.  Apologies.  You now have my full attention, honest...

*goes back to searching for hot single frogs near me*


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## Space Lynx (May 20, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> Then you didn't do much research to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Alright you just found a real gem here, nice find.

"
1. Oxpeckers​Oxpeckers are a common species that eat ticks, but they only live in Africa. Because of the high volume of ticks that they consume, they are also known as tickbirds."

The answer seems simple then, we need to import these Oxpecker birds to my area, so I can read peacefully under trees once again.


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## the54thvoid (May 20, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> Alright you just found a real gem here, nice find.
> 
> "
> 1. Oxpeckers​Oxpeckers are a common species that eat ticks, but they only live in Africa. Because of the high volume of ticks that they consume, they are also known as tickbirds."
> ...



Don't forget to import the ox as well.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 20, 2022)

Endymio said:


> To bring this back on subject, one thing the geological record of the earth makes clear is this: species don't last.  Mosquitos will -- with or without human intervention -- one day become extinct.  And you know what?  The earth will be just fine without them.  I'm perfectly willing to nudge us a little faster to that utopian era.
> 
> So Moderator, another poster is allowed to call me a "pos", but you instantly edit from my post a simple reference to his bad grammar used to attack me?  Delete my account from this site; I won't be returning.


My word, I think you miss understood that.
Pos science guy = positive science guy .

Sorry I wasn't trying to offend you just on a phone, in work typing quick.

@the54thvoid "The 'pos' remark didn't ping on my radar. I'll deal with that. You may stay or leave. Your call."

Nor should you Pos, neg , you see pile of £#@& that's on you.

In context I hadn't even got that flamey with endymio but like the word Pal , Pos is apparently always bad?! Wtaf.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Don't forget to import the ox as well.


This is getting out of hand...


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## Shrek (May 20, 2022)

ratirt said:


> well there is a drawback obviously. I'm not saying we should move to a cave and live there but there is a lot we can do to make it better. The problem is global and it will stay global. Global warming correlates with industry but with poverty as well. Unfortunately we are not good mitigating the latter one either. Nobody cares about Earth when they struggle. Some are just ignorant and think this is the new generation's to come problem. I think people are not ready for anything to make it better. Especially when they being drive by fame, wealth, sick ambitions etc.
> Some things will never change but when they do, it will be too late.



It is hard to discuss these issues without getting political; they are, unfortunately, intertwined.


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## Massdeth (May 21, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Can't validate this bit and the bits on lyme disease origins I can find in mainstream science seem to dispute that possibility:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Understandable, but if you look at what he was doing in Germany leading up to paperclip it becomes more damning. The US DS scum and Nazis that bullied us into the treaty def wanted him to continue his work, also why they put him on a island with a cover facility, because many of his colleagues ended up in USSR continuing same types of research wanting to get ahead of it. After operation Northwoods papers came out, and other treasonous experiments papers were released along with MKUltra and Mockingbird you pretty much can tell that these psychos will stop at nothing and will do the most dangerous of tests on any people or country. The scientists on the Manhattan experiment thought that if they dropped fatboy it could ignite the whole atmosphere in a runaway chain reaction and decided to do it anyway. If that isnt the pinnacle of ego, ignorance, and just psychotic behavior at the very least it explains why we live in the hellish world that we do.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 21, 2022)

Massdeth said:


> Understandable, but if you look at what he was doing in Germany leading up to paperclip it becomes more damning. The US DS scum and Nazis that bullied us into the treaty def wanted him to continue his work, also why they put him on a island with a cover facility, because many of his colleagues ended up in USSR continuing same types of research wanting to get ahead of it. After operation Northwoods papers came out, and other treasonous experiments papers were released along with MKUltra and Mockingbird you pretty much can tell that these psychos will stop at nothing and will do the most dangerous of tests on any people or country. The scientists on the Manhattan experiment thought that if they dropped fatboy it could ignite the whole atmosphere in a runaway chain reaction and decided to do it anyway. If that isnt the pinnacle of ego, ignorance, and just psychotic behavior at the very least it explains why we live in the hellish world that we do.



Wasn't there are also some concern about some scientists making a "mini black hole" like a decade ago? I can't remember. I understand what you mean though yes, historically speaking as a species we have been reckless when tinkering with things that we can never fully understand. Also, the year 2022 is the first time the human DNA has been 100% sequenced... I thought we had done that decades ago... but I was wrong, it was literally in the new a couple months ago... this is why I like Socrates so much, he often reminds us "how do we know what we know" we take so much for granted and just accept it as fact, instead of doing our due diligence in researching it properly.

I have to admit, I was a bit worried when they released the genetically modified mosquitoes in Florida, I understand population control is needed, but on the same hand sometimes i do wonder, like ten years from now, will this yield any consequences that we simply can't imagine right now? It's so hard to know really. On the other hand, I look at places like Hawaii that never had mosquitoes until recently, and that gives me comfort in the sense that whatever cycles of life happened there for eons, did just fine without mosquitoes. So I am not too worried about that, mostly I am worried about the quote from Jurassic Park movie from many years ago, "Life always finds a way" -Goldblum's character, I forget his name lol (in context the mosquito genetic editing makes it so they only breed males right now in Florida, and hopefully that will cause great population decrease, but not eradication) but genetics can change even without human intervention, so what if in ten years we start seeing mosquitoes twice the size as before? probably won't happen, but I do think there is some hubris with humans tinkering in genetics.

I honestly don't know where I stand one way or the other


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 21, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> Wasn't there are also some concern about some scientists making a "mini black hole" like a decade ago? I can't remember. I understand what you mean though yes, historically speaking as a species we have been reckless when tinkering with things that we can never fully understand. Also, the year 2022 is the first time the human DNA has been 100% sequenced... I thought we had done that decades ago... but I was wrong, it was literally in the new a couple months ago... this is why I like Socrates so much, he often reminds us "how do we know what we know" we take so much for granted and just accept it as fact, instead of doing our due diligence in researching it properly.
> 
> I have to admit, I was a bit worried when they released the genetically modified mosquitoes in Florida, I understand population control is needed, but on the same hand sometimes i do wonder, like ten years from now, will this yield any consequences that we simply can't imagine right now? It's so hard to know really. On the other hand, I look at places like Hawaii that never had mosquitoes until recently, and that gives me comfort in the sense that whatever cycles of life happened there for eons, did just fine without mosquitoes. So I am not too worried about that, mostly I am worried about the quote from Jurassic Park movie from many years ago, "Life always finds a way" -Goldblum's character, I forget his name lol (in context the mosquito genetic editing makes it so they only breed males right now in Florida, and hopefully that will cause great population decrease, but not eradication) but genetics can change even without human intervention, so what if in ten years we start seeing mosquitoes twice the size as before? probably won't happen, but I do think there is some hubris with humans tinkering in genetics.
> 
> I honestly don't know where I stand one way or the other



There is a great possibility we will be wiped out by a tiny microbe/virus/disease of our own making that we stupidly did not make a antigen/cure for.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 21, 2022)

@CallandorWoT -as the quote goes, life always finds a way.

It doesn't mention what life...


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (May 21, 2022)

Genetic alterations in any organism have extremely high likelihood of having unforeseen secondary consequences. We are rarely if ever sure that specific functions of specific genes are the only ones and that the genes we're attempting to modify don't serve any additional purposes that could have very complex mechanisms behind them.

Most likely outcome: they won't survive for long after modifications. Second most likely: they survive while being permanently impaired one additional way or another.


----------



## Assimilator (May 21, 2022)

You're asking a question that nobody has or can have the answer to, because the only way to have that answer is to actually make these genetic alterations, release the modified fauna, and observe what happens. What is true is that in the case of mosquitoes, the scientists who have studied them and their genes are able, with a very high probability, to say that if they alter a particular set of genes, that will cause the mosquitoes to behave in a particular way. And they rigorously test the actual behaviour, repeatedly, using small sample groups, before they're allowed to even consider letting GM mosquitoes into the wild.

Of course, there is the problem of what happens when, inevitably, there are unforeseen consequences. Should there be a kill switch of some kind? What does that entail? What happens if it malfunctions? It's a very slippery slope that will only get more slippery as the human population continues to expand, we continue to encroach on areas that were previously without humans, and gengineering becomes something that any government has the capabilities for.

Personally I'd much prefer the pest problem to be one solved by medical, not gengineering, technology. In other words, develop a vaccine against malaria instead of modifying the mosquitoes to be unable to breed, and similarly for Lyme disease and ticks. Yes, mosquito and tick bites are gross and annoying but they're also not a problem if the dieases these insects carry are no longer a problem.



TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> A Dick head sold the idea of putting lead in fuel to stop knocking, he sciences the shit and Proved it was safe.


Midgley did nothing of the sort; he knew the evidence but simply didn't believe that lead was harmful, so he perpetuated lies about its safety as a fuel additive because he wanted to make money. And this was nearly a century ago, when peer review and corporate responsibility weren't a thing; the same s**t would not fly today in any way shape or form.

If you want an example of what happens to scientific frauds today, look no further than Andrew Wakefield's lies about vaccines and autism and his resulting blacklist from any reputable scientific journal or group. The British government even went so far as to ban him from practicing medicine ever again. There are still idiots who believe his nonsense, but they're the same idiots that believe 5G causes cancer.



Endymio said:


> The incidence of parasitic disease among humans has decreased every decade since the industrial revolution began.  The sky isn't falling.   As for "fish patterns", warmer water means a larger overall fish population.  i.e. more food for all.  That's a good thing too.
> 
> As for the belief that cold, dry climates are best for us, a quick question: would you rather be dropped alone on a warm tropical island, or Antarctica?  There's a reason they built Disney World in south Florida, not Saskatchewan.  Likewise, there's also a reason the human species began in Africa, not Siberia.


So many lies in one post. Take them elsewhere.



ExcuseMeWtf said:


> Genetic alterations in any organism have extremely high likelihood of having unforeseen secondary consequences. We are rarely if ever sure that specific functions of specific genes are the only ones and that the genes we're attempting to modify don't serve any additional purposes that could have very complex mechanisms behind them.
> 
> Most likely outcome: they won't survive for long after modifications. Second most likely: they survive while being permanently impaired one additional way or another.


You really think that the scientists who've been studying mosquitoes and their genome for _literally decades_ don't know this, huh? Boy have I got some news for you.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (May 21, 2022)

> You really think that the scientists who've been studying mosquitoes and their genome for _literally decades_ don't know this, huh? Boy have I got some news for you.


You really think every person reading this thread is a "scientist who has been studying mosquitoes and their genome for literally decades"?


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## Assimilator (May 21, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> You really think every person reading this thread is a "scientist who has been studying mosquitoes and their genome for literally decades"?


My point is that nobody is going to be permitted (at least in the West, where scientific ethics exist) to modify the genome of anything before being reasonably sure that what's being done won't have the side effects you speak of. And that the modifications are well-tested before considering release into the wild, again to guard again side effects.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 21, 2022)

Assimilator said:


> You're asking a question that nobody has or can have the answer to, because the only way to have that answer is to actually make these genetic alterations, release the modified fauna, and observe what happens. What is true is that in the case of mosquitoes, the scientists who have studied them and their genes are able, with a very high probability, to say that if they alter a particular set of genes, that will cause the mosquitoes to behave in a particular way. And they rigorously test the actual behaviour, repeatedly, using small sample groups, before they're allowed to even consider letting GM mosquitoes into the wild.
> 
> Of course, there is the problem of what happens when, inevitably, there are unforeseen consequences. Should there be a kill switch of some kind? What does that entail? What happens if it malfunctions? It's a very slippery slope that will only get more slippery as the human population continues to expand, we continue to encroach on areas that were previously without humans, and gengineering becomes something that any government has the capabilities for.
> 
> ...


I understand your points, and it's true to say that fraud on Midgleys scale would be hard.

To counter your argument I have seen examples of scientific failure in the 46 years I have been alive , PBa's forever chemicals, tobacco, some would argue the environment, philidermide the list goes on.

Meanwhile whenever a scientist breaks ground in this fashion we see little evidence of multi disciplinary science proving the efficacy of their statements, and many scientific papers are kept behind locked doors. 

Not exactly transparent.


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## Shrek (May 21, 2022)

There is an interesting observation that what we have manipulated by selection: 'better' potatoes/tomatoes/strawberries don't do very well in the wild, or we would see them there.


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## Space Lynx (May 30, 2022)

Deadly nose-bleed fever shocks Iraq as cases surge - Digital Journal
					

The sight of the health workers, dressed in full protective kit, is one that has become common in the Iraqi countryside.



					www.digitaljournal.com
				




just read this... quite shocking. I almost wonder if in the future we will have no choice but to get rid of ticks. we can't spray everything with ever increasing potent pesticides forever...

I still don't fully understand the cycle of life that ticks provide, but if it ever becomes too lopsided and outbreaks like this can't be contained, my guess is science will have no choice but to eliminate them... could make for an interesting sci-fi book too... lol


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## eidairaman1 (May 30, 2022)

Point is don't mess with the natural balance in the animal kingdom because it will bite us in the ass eventually. We have control measures for urban areas, just leave it at that.


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## Cristian0 (May 30, 2022)

A small extinction event?


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## Space Lynx (May 31, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> Point is don't mess with the natural balance in the animal kingdom because it will bite us in the ass eventually. We have control measures for urban areas, just leave it at that.



I agree with this, but I think that is where things get messy. Hawaii wasn't expecting humans to bring ticks and mosquitoes to its lands... so in a way we already messed with the cycles.


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## R-T-B (May 31, 2022)

Cristian0 said:


> A small extinction event?


We're already in a massive one, small one sounds ok to me.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 5, 2022)

I just realized we should add bedbugs to this list, it's kind of like the Hawaii thing, we never used to have bedbugs, but because of exploration/travel/trade now they are rampant.

I say to hell with the whole fucking lot of them mates, lets do the same to them as we are currently doing to mosquitoes in Florida. I wouldn't be surprised if we actually knew the history of ticks/mosquitoes/bedbugs we would find they actually are an invasive species that shouldn't be in most places to begin with, therefore, the cycle of life actually does not require them in most regions of the world.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 5, 2022)

Any parasites should be wiped out.........oh wait we are parasites.


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## 64K (Jun 5, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> Point is don't mess with the natural balance in the animal kingdom because it will bite us in the ass eventually. We have control measures for urban areas, just leave it at that.



That's what I wonder about. What might be the possible ramifications to take out these insects and what might happen to the insects that feed on them and could it cause problems in the entire food chain eventually.


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## Steevo (Jun 6, 2022)

If we try it in a secluded area and allow the population to remain unaltered in others we can always reintroduce the pests in those areas.

Fly fishing in the mountain streams has let me know trout can see a tiny mosquito clearly above the water, so if it reduces the number of trout, which are also food for salmon, and also food for other trout, and lake fish, bear, etc… the effect might be almost devastating. But there are areas we could try it and see what happens with a backup plan in place. I would love to not need Deet or other smelly products to stay out of the food chain, but only if it means there is no substantial effect on the environment and local ecosystem.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2022)

Steevo said:


> If we try it in a secluded area and allow the population to remain unaltered in others we can always reintroduce the pests in those areas.
> 
> Fly fishing in the mountain streams has let me know trout can see a tiny mosquito clearly above the water, so if it reduces the number of trout, which are also food for salmon, and also food for other trout, and lake fish, bear, etc… the effect might be almost devastating. But there are areas we could try it and see what happens with a backup plan in place. I would love to not need Deet or other smelly products to stay out of the food chain, but only if it means there is no substantial effect on the environment and local ecosystem.



It's also about what percentage of their diet does the mosquito make up, regardless, areas with salmon/trout should probably be left alone I agree.



64K said:


> That's what I wonder about. What might be the possible ramifications to take out these insects and what might happen to the insects that feed on them and could it cause problems in the entire food chain eventually.



From what I understand so far, ticks/bedbugs/fleas aren't really a major part of any of the food supply chain for any creature, and in fact probably should not have existed to begin with, if it wasn't for exploration/trade over the millenia, they would probably still not exist in many ecosystems.


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## R-T-B (Jun 6, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Any parasites should be wiped out.........oh wait we are parasites.


Babies are parasites too.  Yeetus the fetus?



Steevo said:


> If we try it in a secluded area and allow the population to remain unaltered in others we can always reintroduce the pests in those areas.


The whole idea is they fly around and mate with other fellow pests producing more of the "small litter" genome type.  There's no containing flying insects.  It will spread.


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## Fourstaff (Jun 6, 2022)

We are slowly drifting away from the topic guys, please don't get distracted by babies.


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## TheUn4seen (Jun 6, 2022)

Once upon a time in Europe cats were considered pests and were killed en masse. Outcome? Rats moved in and brought with them the Black Plague.
Not that long ago the Chinese in their ignorance tried to kill sparrows just because some old fart with the brain of a rat didn't like them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine was (in huge part) the outcome of that.
Fucking around with modifying ecosystems just because humans don't like some of the animals has been proven time and time again to be a hugely bad idea. Let's focus on controlling the population of the world's deadliest animal, the homo sapiens. Those monkeys are a hugely invasive species, refuse to control their behaviour despite having the capability to do so, exterminated a large percentage of species and show no signs of stopping.


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## Steevo (Jun 6, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> It's also about what percentage of their diet does the mosquito make up, regardless, areas with salmon/trout should probably be left alone I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I understand so far, ticks/bedbugs/fleas aren't really a major part of any of the food supply chain for any creature, and in fact probably should not have existed to begin with, if it wasn't for exploration/trade over the millenia, they would probably still not exist in many ecosystems.



In high mountain streams they make up a significant percentage of their diet, young spawn feed on the mosquitoes and other bugs that are in slower moving areas of the streams, or will jump out of water for flying bugs, which fly fishing simulates for them when you can curl the fly a few inches over the water. Out of a hundred eggs only a few will become adults, most are eaten by others or predators.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2022)

Steevo said:


> In high mountain streams they make up a significant percentage of their diet, young spawn feed on the mosquitoes and other bugs that are in slower moving areas of the streams, or will jump out of water for flying bugs, which fly fishing simulates for them when you can curl the fly a few inches over the water. Out of a hundred eggs only a few will become adults, most are eaten by others or predators.



Florida is probably making a mistake in this particular case then, population control seems iffy/hubris. Regardless, it is too late now as they already unleashed the genetically modified ones.

Now attempting the same genetic tactics for fleas/ticks/bedbugs is not off the table, but now that I have confirmation on mosquitoes being helpful to fish, that is a no go.



TheUn4seen said:


> Once upon a time in Europe cats were considered pests and were killed en masse. Outcome? Rats moved in and brought with them the Black Plague.
> Not that long ago the Chinese in their ignorance tried to kill sparrows just because some old fart with the brain of a rat didn't like them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine was (in huge part) the outcome of that.
> Fucking around with modifying ecosystems just because humans don't like some of the animals has been proven time and time again to be a hugely bad idea. Let's focus on controlling the population of the world's deadliest animal, the homo sapiens. Those monkeys are a hugely invasive species, refuse to control their behaviour despite having the capability to do so, exterminated a large percentage of species and show no signs of stopping.




black plague was not caused by rats.  also, cats kill an enormous amount of birds each year, which is really hurting the nitrogen levels in top soil for growing food.  I'm not claiming I have the answers to these problems, just saying its more complex than any of us can possibly realize I think.



			https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1715640115


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## Assimilator (Jun 6, 2022)

TheUn4seen said:


> Once upon a time in Europe cats were considered pests and were killed en masse. Outcome? Rats moved in and brought with them the Black Plague.
> Not that long ago the Chinese in their ignorance tried to kill sparrows just because some old fart with the brain of a rat didn't like them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine was (in huge part) the outcome of that.


The Europeans and Chinese didn't have the holistic knowledge of ecosystems that we have today, nor did they have procedures and practices to monitor the impact of culling so-called "pests". They were acting on emotion, not logic and scientific facts.


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## R-T-B (Jun 6, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> black plague was not caused by rats.


It was caused by fleas which are carried by rats.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 6, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> It was caused by fleas which are carried by rats.



It was more human fleas than rat ones. look it up

https://www.history.com/news/rats-didnt-spread-the-black-death-it-was-humans


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## R-T-B (Jun 7, 2022)

Tigger said:


> It was more human fleas than rat ones. look it up
> 
> https://www.history.com/news/rats-didnt-spread-the-black-death-it-was-humans


Makes sense honestly, just was out of date on this.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 7, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Makes sense honestly, just was out of date on this.



A lot of city's in Europe and especially London were to be honest fucking cesspools of filth at that time, so no surprise most people carried fleas, it was just easy i guess to blame the rats.


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## yumame (Jul 15, 2022)

skizzo said:


> ticks are a parasite, literally, and are rampant in my area in Central NY. I just pulled one off my leg yesterday (this is never a fun time removing them, there is a reason there is a saying "dug in like a tick") and I've been fortunate that I haven't had any lyme disease complications from previous bites. There used to be a belief if they were on you for X time you would be infected and we would sorta freak out not knowing how long the tick was on you and go get some like nuclear bomb equivalent of antibiotics (I think it is doxycycline) to make sure you don't develop lyme. Now it's more understood you could get infected at any point in time it is attached to you, so things more important to watch out for is if you develop odd rashes at the bite area, the bulls eye rash is the worst and sure sign you got something from it for example. It's always a challenge keeping the dogs and cats tick free too but they get medicine for this and does work for the most part but we put bandanas on them that are sprayed down with permethrin (needs to be diluted) so they wear them outside as an extra layer of tick protection.  me and my dad make a SHIT TON of "tick tubes" and just got done making 175 new ones this year to be put at both our homes and our camp. spray permethrin (again should be diluted) on some material like pillow stuffing or anything that critters like mice might use and put that sprayed down material into an old toilet paper tube. distribute them all over where critters could access them, in your basement, sheds, perimeter and tree lines of your property etc. so the mice and other critters grab this material and take it back to their nests and places of travel and therefore kills the ticks before they can really populate. ticks form in those areas more because the stupid critter like mice sure have a hard time removing them so they thrive in areas where there are plenty of "hosts" for them to attach too....like a mouse nest. I am an avid deer hunter too and have seen some really ticked up. It's a bad situation all around. I'm actually going to start spraying a set of pants and shirt and shoes I always wear out doing yard work with permethrin which not only keeps away the ticks but the 'skeeters and black flies etc that drive you nuts in this area. the effect doesn't last forever so it's good to do it say every few weeks or so or after you wash said clothes
> 
> rant to say if we can do something to rid the world of ticks, then WONDERFUL! literal parasite, I have a hard time believing there would be any sort of a butterfly effect ridding the world of a parasite, as if ticks somehow help maintain some delicate balance in the ecosystem or certain species etc.
> 
> ...


I think exactly the same as you.


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## mechtech (Dec 2, 2022)

less mosquitoes - probably a lot less spread of diesease
could result in more people
also less food for birds, bats, spiders and dragonflys - could result in less of them also


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## KLiKzg (Jan 6, 2023)

mechtech said:


> less mosquitoes - probably a lot less spread of diesease
> could result in more people
> also less food for birds, bats, spiders and dragonflys - could result in less of them also


In Brasil this failed, as the populations returned to normal after 2 years: https://www.dw.com/en/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-breed-in-brazil/a-50414340

So, you can't temper with nature much this way.


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## kapone32 (Jan 6, 2023)

Space Lynx said:


> Florida is probably making a mistake in this particular case then, population control seems iffy/hubris. Regardless, it is too late now as they already unleashed the genetically modified ones.
> 
> Now attempting the same genetic tactics for fleas/ticks/bedbugs is not off the table, but now that I have confirmation on mosquitoes being helpful to fish, that is a no go.
> 
> ...


Florida should be spending that money on a much harder effort at curtailing the Invasive species than controlling pests. If you don't like the things that live in the Swamp. move.


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## Bomby569 (Jan 6, 2023)

KLiKzg said:


> In Brasil this failed, as the populations returned to normal after 2 years: https://www.dw.com/en/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-breed-in-brazil/a-50414340
> 
> So, you can't temper with nature much this way.



Basically you either go full nuclear and wipe all the mosquitoes (and that was even worst consequences) or it will never work.


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## kapone32 (Jan 6, 2023)

Bomby569 said:


> Basically you either go full nuclear and wipe all the mosquitoes (and that was even worst consequences) or it will never work.


I was watching a Youtube video on the historic flooding in Australia. The reporter was talking in front of a video image of a stop sign being the water level. While he was talking about how bad the conditions were a loon swam across the screen oblivious to the human suffering that was going on. The only part of nature that is going to pay for our folly is us.



mechtech said:


> less mosquitoes - probably a lot less spread of diesease
> could result in more people
> also less food for birds, bats, spiders and dragonflys - could result in less of them also


That is not the way it works. As much as we are ignorant there is no good in us destroying or attempting to alter the environment for our health. Mosquitoes also help to build immunity otherwise every year millions of people would die from Mosquito Bites.  We have been locked up and now the fact that we have not been exposed to our environment has led to a raft of cardiovascular issues as well. That is not conjecture


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## R-T-B (Jan 6, 2023)

kapone32 said:


> The only part of nature that is going to pay for our folly is us.


That's pretty debatable when you consider, as I mentioned above, we are already in a major largely human-driven extinction event.



KLiKzg said:


> In Brasil this failed, as the populations returned to normal after 2 years: https://www.dw.com/en/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-breed-in-brazil/a-50414340
> 
> So, you can't temper with nature much this way.


I mean you can, but evolution will just weed them out of the gene pool eventually.  The impact is limited.  Honestly, in hindsight this sort of result was kind of obvious.  I guess we were just hoping it would do more.


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## kapone32 (Jan 6, 2023)

R-T-B said:


> That's pretty debatable when you consider, as I mentioned above, we are already in a major largely human-driven extinction event.


I am going to give you 2 examples that belie that narrative. 

Chernobyl: Is in the news now because of the War. There was an accident there in the 80s and no one can live within a 600  mile radius of the site. They were amazed that not only did the animals not show a large radiation effect but species that had been considered extinct for over 100 years have been seen in the forests and cities surrounding the site. Including the European Horse, flourishing. 

Where I live: When people used to go to work there was a building beside my work place that had cordoned off about 1/3 of their parking lot. They relegated the smokers to that area whre I work and that are was a natural forest on the other side of the fence that you could see some of the parking lot but not much. One day there was a clutch of Garter snakes sunning beside the fence. We had a weather event (I live beside a creek) and there was mass flooding in my area. The city dug a 20 meter retrofit of the creek. They put all of the dirt they dug up in 2 piles. Those 2 piles have the exact same fauna as that spot behind my workplace. Now what has that done, one day (morning) I was going to the bench to take a mind trip to Saturn and as I got  to the path a Rabbit was booking it when I looked a Coyote was chasing the rabbit with another rabbit in it's mouth. 

I will give you another one just for the sake of Good news should be spread. Where I live we have banned the use of herbicides and pesticides. That has allowed the eggs of Raptor birds to make it. When I go to the bus to get my Daughter I regularly see 2 Hawks hunting. One is much more proficient than the other and usually has to hop street light tops to enjoy the meal it catches as the other loves to steal. One day one of the Hawks landed on a fence post by the path I described and sat there for about 15 minutes, the way that people were amazed was inspiring, no one was not in awe of the majesty of that animal. This is something that we did for good. Now the squirrels are not as bold as before and the racoons are persona non grata. Thankfully even Skunks are not as bold as before. Owls would be cool to hear next.  

Earth is so amazing, I was blown away when I learned about cold Water corals or that salmon, trout and other fish mass migrate on every river connected to the Ocean. The things they discovered in the Mountain Forests of Columbia especially (since the Human acrimony has subsided) are mind blowing like a bird that plays it's wings like a violin to call a mate.


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## KLiKzg (Jan 6, 2023)

kapone32 said:


> Florida should be spending that money on a much harder effort at curtailing the Invasive species than controlling pests. If you don't like the things that live in the Swamp. move.


Or just get more bats from China...it is far better to cultivate bats on Florida & wipe out the mosquitos, then Chinese to eat them...right?!


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## the54thvoid (Jan 6, 2023)

kapone32 said:


> Chernobyl: Is in the news now because of the War. There was an accident there in the 80s and no one can live within a 600  mile radius of the site. They were amazed that not only did the animals not show a large radiation effect but species that had been considered extinct for over 100 years have been seen in the forests and cities surrounding the site. Including the European Horse, flourishing.



Humans live well within 600 miles of the plant. _The capital of Ukraine, Kyiv, is 94 miles away by car_. Even during the event, only towns within 30km were evacuated, though this was extended but not by anywhere near hundreds of miles.

As for animals that were extinct, actual research does not show them returning. Species have been reintroduced (in 1998 horses, I think, were brought into the reserve).

Regardless, the real reasons the animals are doing better than expected (the researchers agree on this), is that the humans have mostly gone. I mean, we saw this during Covid in places that observed lock downs. In one Welsh village, the goats came down from the mountains and roamed the streets.

It would be an interesting thing though to monitor the isotopes in the blood of ticks and fleas, as they feast on all the animals in the zone.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 6, 2023)

kapone32 said:


> I am going to give you 2 examples that belie that narrative.
> 
> Chernobyl: Is in the news now because of the War. There was an accident there in the 80s and no one can live within a 600  mile radius of the site. They were amazed that not only did the animals not show a large radiation effect but species that had been considered extinct for over 100 years have been seen in the forests and cities surrounding the site. Including the European Horse, flourishing.
> 
> ...


Just look at the Brazilian rain forest, it is what it is because humans cultivated it then died out.
The earth's fine, we might not be.


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## claes (Jan 6, 2023)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Just look at the Brazilian rain forest, it is what it is because humans cultivated it then died out.


Huh? Last I checked the Amazon is experiencing rapid deforestation, largely due to human intervention?


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## R-T-B (Jan 6, 2023)

kapone32 said:


> Chernobyl: Is in the news now because of the War. There was an accident there in the 80s and no one can live within a 600 mile radius of the site. They were amazed that not only did the animals not show a large radiation effect but species that had been considered extinct for over 100 years have been seen in the forests and cities surrounding the site. Including the European Horse, flourishing.


This in no way debates or disputes the extinction event going on from human influences.  It just shows animals (and yes, humans) can live in radiation without getting utterly wiped out.  Exact impacts unknown.  Also the animals at chernobyl are flourishing largely because humans are mostly gone.

I've been to very near Chernobyl as part of a research project. and no one except maybe alarmists were saying that the animals there would die enmasse for DECADES TO COME.  Most of that happened immediately after the release.  Like the red forest, which is still very dead.  The rest just get awesome cancers.

That example is so bad I stopped reading, tbh.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 6, 2023)

claes said:


> Huh? Last I checked the Amazon is experiencing rapid deforestation, largely due to human intervention?


Yes your right, but so was I repopulation sucks apparently.


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## Space Lynx (Saturday at 12:47 AM)

kapone32 said:


> Florida should be spending that money on a much harder effort at curtailing the Invasive species than controlling pests. If you don't like the things that live in the Swamp. move.



My latest feelings on it are that when humanity messes with experimental cutting edge science, more often than not they don't account for all variables. So my latest position is probably leave it all alone... but alas it doesn't matter anymore since they have already released thousands of genetically modified mosquitoes in the wild.

Personally, I think ticks are much more dangerous than mosquitoes, ticks are skyrocketing in number alongside various diseases like Lyme disease in the American North Eastern states. Honestly, you couldn't pay me to go hiking in that region of that world. Not until the tick problem is solved anyway, it never used to be this bad based on my research.


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## KLiKzg (Saturday at 8:16 PM)

Space Lynx said:


> My latest feelings on it are that when humanity messes with experimental cutting edge science, more often than not they don't account for all variables. So my latest position is probably leave it all alone... but alas it doesn't matter anymore since they have already released thousands of genetically modified mosquitoes in the wild.
> 
> Personally, I think ticks are much more dangerous than mosquitoes, ticks are skyrocketing in number alongside various diseases like Lyme disease in the American North Eastern states. Honestly, you couldn't pay me to go hiking in that region of that world. Not until the tick problem is solved anyway, it never used to be this bad based on my research.


Well, then help find it...the cure I mean.
About the project, that included lyme disease cure search.

Link for joining is here.


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## Space Lynx (Sunday at 1:32 AM)

KLiKzg said:


> Well, then help find it...the cure I mean.
> About the project, that included lyme disease cure search.
> 
> Link for joining is here.



They already have a cure for Lyme disease prevention, the vaccine is successful and trials are almost done I believe I read recently.









						Lyme Disease Vaccine Candidate Phase 3 Trial to Begin - Pfizer Investor Insights
					

Summer in the Northeast is vacation season, when city dwellers flee the heat in search of cooler climes. Increasingly, it’s also the season for Lyme disease, a tick-borne illness that afflicts an estimated 476,000 people in the U.S.[1] and another 130,000 in Europe each year.[2] Children aged...




					insights.pfizer.com


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## KLiKzg (Sunday at 9:31 AM)

Space Lynx said:


> They already have a cure for Lyme disease prevention, the vaccine is successful and trials are almost done I believe I read recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This might also be from that research...as HPF project was finished some 10+ years ago & free data for use.


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