# Hyperloop news.



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Oct 25, 2016)

The 14-foot-long (4.3-metre) vehicle was shown to hover around a quarter of an inch (0.6cm) above the ground, powered by eight miniature engines.

'Our pod is light-weight, modular and scalable and can travel up to 240mph,' said Dhaval Shiyani, Founder, Team Captain and Chief engineer at Hyperloop UC
http://hyperloopuc.com/









'It features a dual redundant braking system with magnetic and friction brakes along with a dual redundant levitation system through magnetic levitation and wheels'.

'The levitation system works through strong magnetic arrays arranged in a circular pattern which, when rotated at high speeds, produce a lift force capable of levitating our entire 300kg system'.

Tesla and SpaceX boss Elon Musk first unveiled his Hyperloop concept in 2012 and subsequently challenged the world to submit prototype ideas for the tube-based passenger system that would allow travel between cities at the speed of sound.

The selected prototypes will be tested between 27 and 29 January on a mile-long test track next to SpaceX's HQ in Hawthorne, California.





A render showing what the finalised Hyperloop UC pod will look like.












http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop
http://www.universityherald.com/art...innati-students-works-magnetic-levitation.htm


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## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 25, 2016)

So how is this different from MagLev trains?


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Oct 25, 2016)

These travel in reduced pressure tubes which reduce air friction.

Vactrain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain


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## Steevo (Oct 25, 2016)

The biggest issues facing this are the braking, having a vacuum tube of the size required. If they pull/push it with air instead of in a pure or almost absolute vacuum (why do planes fly at high altitude, because there is less air and lower friction) they can eliminate half the work in engineering it.


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## RejZoR (Oct 25, 2016)

Just hope the tunnel won't have catastrophic decompression failure. Coz that would be highly painful...


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## Steevo (Oct 25, 2016)

RejZoR said:


> Just hope the tunnel won't have catastrophic decompression failure. Coz that would be highly painful...


Which is why a better solution is a push pull setup every so often in the tunnel, and if you have a catastrophic failure of the tube in the vacuum section it will suck debris away from the train/module, and if in the pressure section it will push the train away from the damage and blow the debris out, and a loss of either will slow the train/capsule and a loss of both will stop it, perhaps with the exception of a small drive that will allow it to travel to the next port at a very reduced speed.


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## RejZoR (Oct 25, 2016)

This guy is a scientist. He often debunks shit. Hyperloop was one of the debunked stuff.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Oct 25, 2016)

Im sure i read somewhere that you dont necessarily have to produce a vacuum, you need to replace the air with a less resistant gas. You dont need to create zero friction just reduced friction.

I'm not convinced by the video.


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## RejZoR (Oct 25, 2016)

You're not convinced by a video? Have you stopped watching it after 10 seconds to miss the largest vacuum chamber in the world, made of thick reinforced concrete to be able to withstand the atmospheric pressure from the outside and the crushing forces of the vacuum from inside? But they'll make a system several hundred times larger out of a thick metal. Which brings us to the metal expansion part. Ever wondered why trains make a repeated "ticking" noise while driving on railroad tracks? Yeah, that "ticking" noise are gaps in railroad tracks to compensate for metal expansion due to environment temperature. Without it, tracks would bend, causing train to derail. Don't you understand, the larger the object is, the larger expansion will be. They could solve this easily at the atmospheric pressure. They've done that for bridges and railroads for centuries basically. Not so much when you need to maintain a different pressure inside and you can't afford ANY gaps in the system. And even if they do, every single such point would be an extra potential failure point. Not exactly desired...

And the "less resistant gas" just means the density of the gas in the Hyperloop tube. You don't want to fill it with least dense gas, the hydrogen. Hindenburg and all that. Besides, for as long as you have anything in the tube, you'll be facing the same problem. The faster you go, the more resistance it'll create. Especially at planned above supersonic speeds (passenger planes fly at around 900km/h or ~550mph, a lot slower so they don't really create that effect at given altitudes). Not to mention, in a closed system, you'll create a vacuum behind you, causing additional drag from behind. So, essentially you are FORCED to go with vacuum. And then you experience with problems listed above. Airplanes don't have those problems because the atmosphere is not a closed system (it is planet wise, but it doesn't matter for an individual airplane). They just need to fly high enough to be within a thinner part of atmosphere to DECREASE resistance and drag. You still can't eliminate it entirely, but you improve efficiency.

The core idea is good, if you eliminate resistance and drag, you enhance efficiency significantly. The problem is, it's just not practical on any level.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Oct 25, 2016)

I did watch the video actually and this is my point. I dont think you need such a vast construction because you dont need a complete or near complete vacuum or anything like it.

This has nothing to do with Elon Musks idea. He set up the competition it is entered in and the team were inspired by his vision.....that doesnt mean their ideas and innovations will be the same as his.

Spacex and Musk have both said that they are not affilaiated to any Hyperloop companies.


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## Steevo (Oct 25, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> I did watch the video actually and this is my point. I dont think you need such a vast construction because you dont need a complete or near complete vacuum or anything like it.
> 
> This has nothing to do with Elon Musks idea. He set up the competition it is entered in and the team were inspired by his vision.....that doesnt mean their ideas and innovations will be the same as his.
> 
> Spacex and Musk have both said that they are not affilaiated to any Hyperloop companies.




Well, to quote Trump...... WRONG lol

They need to fly that high to get away from the thick atmosphere, and the design is only constrained by the lack of oxidizer, for example at 37,000 feet where there is http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html roughly 10PSI less pressure and 2.5 times less density. To push something like a bullet through air at high velocity causes it to heat up, and all that loss is bad for efficiency, so its easier to remove some or all of the resistance.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Oct 25, 2016)

Steevo said:


> Well, to quote Trump...... WRONG lol
> 
> They need to fly that high to get away from the thick atmosphere, and the design is only constrained by the lack of oxidizer, for example at 37,000 feet where there is http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html roughly 10PSI less pressure and 2.5 times less density. To push something like a bullet through air at high velocity causes it to heat up, and all that loss is bad for efficiency, so its easier to remove some or all of the resistance.





i think you are reading it wrong....this thread is about a device that travels at 240mph.....not Elon Musks pipe dream from 2013..

We will all learn more when they start the competition.


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## Recon-UK (Oct 25, 2016)

As long as i'm not dead once i get to the destination i want to get to i'm good.

Also i want my organs to remain as they were.


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## Caring1 (Oct 28, 2016)

Nobody's mentioning the fact they all look like clones?


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 23, 2016)

Los Angeles-based start-up Hyperloop One has started construction on a development that could potentially become the world's first Hyperloop transport system.

The first tube of 'DevLoop', which looks set to become the first full Hyperloop system, has been successfully installed in a desert in North Las Vegas. The 1.8 mile (3 km) full-scale and full speed enclosed prototype is taking shape in the desert. Hyperloop One has raised a total of $160 million (£128 million) to date


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## dorsetknob (Nov 23, 2016)

My God !!!! what has the world come to



Steevo said:


> Well, to quote Trump...... WRONG lol



"People now Quoting Trump " in scientific matters


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 28, 2016)

30 teams selected through SpaceX’s competition are developing working prototypes that will be put to the test in January.

Among the chosen few is Australian team VicHyper, which has unveiled a design focusing on braking and acceleration that could one day be used in a levitating system.







The team from RMIT University in Melbourne won the Braking Subsystem Technical Excellence Award earlier this year, New Atlas reports.

For the upcoming tests set to take place from January 27 to 29, though, they will be simplifying their futuristic design at the request of SpaceX, as the competition will have both levitating and non-levitating classes.

The prototype will be put on wheels, with the air bearing removed, Project Leader Zac McClelland told New Atlas, allowing them to perfect the system for high speeds and in a vacuum.

The VicHyper pod uses a linear induction motor, which has never been used in a vacuum before, for acceleration and deceleration.

It also has a second braking system for emergency stops, which relies on eddy current brakes.

These are often used in high-speed trains and even roller coasters.

While other teams are using permanent magnets for such systems, VicHyper is using an onboard battery to power electromagnets

Using a spinning metallic disk rigged with electromagnetic coils sitting roughly .4 inches off of it, the team revealed it makes for quick, reliable stopping.

We can spin that up to about 500 rpm, and then turn those coils on – it stops in about half a revolution (two seconds),’ McClelland told New Atlas.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Mar 22, 2017)

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) has revealed they’ve now begun construction on the first passenger capsule – and it could be available early next year.

According to the firm, their pods will be able to carry a total of 164,000 passengers every day, departing every 40 seconds.

HTT and Spanish firm Carbures have started work on the radical pod that they say will be the first passenger capsule in the world.

The Hyperloop pod, which will be tested at the company's Toulouse headquarters, will harness passive magnetic levitation and a low pressure tube to hit unprecedented speeds.

‘The capsule hovers inside a tube with low air pressure, and like a jet plane at high altitude, experiences little air resistance,’ according to the firm.

‘The remaining air in front of the capsule is moved to the back using a compressor, allowing for speeds up to 760 mph, with very low energy consumption.’

Each pod will be about 100 feet long, and 2.7 meters wide.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Apr 11, 2017)

The firm announced it has completed the installation of its 1,640-foot-long DevLoop test track in the desert just outside of Las Vegas.

Hyperloop One says it is now the ‘only company in the world’ building an operational commercial system of this kind, and plans to have 500 employees by the end of the year







The now-completed DevLoop track will serve as an outdoor lab, where the firm will test levitation, propulsion, vacuum, and control technologies The Hyperloop pod, which will be tested at the company's Toulouse headquarters, will harness passive magnetic levitation and a low pressure tube to hit unprecedented speeds.


‘The capsule hovers inside a tube with low air pressure, and like a jet plane at high altitude, experiences little air resistance,’ according to the firm.

‘The remaining air in front of the capsule is moved to the back using a compressor, allowing for speeds up to 760 mph, with very low energy consumption.’

Each pod will be about 100 feet long, and 2.7 meters wide.

According to HTT, the world’s first capsule will be ready in early 2018.


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## RejZoR (Apr 11, 2017)

They needed half a day to decompress like a kilometer of this tube. And they plan on building 1152 miles long hyperloops. Just the time to decompress these things would be longer than going the distance with a bicycle and still arriving earlier...


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 11, 2017)

I have one huge concern about this system: if it is intended to move people, how are they providing fresh air?  Commercial aircraft simply used compressed air from the environment around the aircraft because it's not a closed system but this is.  If they aren't constantly exchanging the air in the tube, it will eventually become toxic.

I hope the program ultimately succeeds because cities like LA need mass transit the citizens will accept and use.  Hyperloops have the potential to be a lot like a car in terms of getting around but also a crapload faster.


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## RejZoR (Apr 12, 2017)

The whole idea is a fail. It would be cheaper and faster to build a super fast train like used in Japan. It's cheaper to begin with, proven to work, no decompression hazard, no air toxicity hazard, no ridiculously long waiting to even board and start the trip etc.


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## R0H1T (Apr 12, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I have one huge concern about this system: if it is intended to move people, how are they providing fresh *air*?  Commercial aircraft simply used compressed air from the environment around the aircraft because it's not a closed system but this is.  If they aren't constantly exchanging the air in the tube, it will eventually become toxic.
> 
> I hope the program ultimately succeeds because cities like LA need mass transit the citizens will accept and use.  Hyperloops have the potential to be a lot like a car in terms of getting around but also a crapload faster.


I wonder what happens with an explosive decompression inside the loop itself, anyone remember *Total Recall* 
*







*


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## RejZoR (Apr 12, 2017)

Actually, it would be more like pulling you through a 10 inch hole at supersonic speed...


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2017)

If an explosive were to go off in it and nothing were in the direct line of fire of it, it actually wouldn't be bad unless one were to make contact with the hole (think high speed derailment). These things are moving faster than the speed of sound so the pressure wave wouldn't catch up to those already past the breach.  Those that are heading towards the breach will be slowed by the increase in air pressure helping to slow them from hitting the breach.  Overall, I think they're as safe as subways if not safer.



RejZoR said:


> The whole idea is a fail. It would be cheaper and faster to build a super fast train like used in Japan. It's cheaper to begin with, proven to work, no decompression hazard, no air toxicity hazard, no ridiculously long waiting to even board and start the trip etc.


Actually, not really.  High speed rails mean long distance with few stops, the rail must be isolated from other traffic (elevated, underground, or fenced off on ground; including animals), and wind resistance will prevent any land based solution from reaching the speed of a vehicle in a partial vacuum.


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## Frick (Apr 12, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> The whole idea is a fail. It would be cheaper and faster to build a super fast train like used in Japan. It's cheaper to begin with, proven to work, no decompression hazard, no air toxicity hazard, no ridiculously long waiting to even board and start the trip etc.



Probably, but Musks crazy ideas seem to have a strange way of working out in the long run.


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## Raevenlord (Apr 12, 2017)

Frick said:


> Probably, but Musks crazy ideas seem to have a strange way of working out in the long run.



True to that. I have to admit I am a Musk fanboy. I think he is the businessman all should try to emulate: maintainging and growing the bottom line, but actually expanding and looking to improving humanity's future.

Ah. I'm simply an idealist I guess.

Anyway, Musk and his projects are something I closely follow. Even though I think the Hyperloop is the least revolutionary one of them (though the destroyed remnants of this system will look amazing on my sci-fi novel), one just has to admire the man's focus.

Neuralink, anyone? :drools:


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## R0H1T (Apr 12, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> *If an explosive were to go off* in it and nothing were in the direct line of fire of it, it actually wouldn't be bad unless one were to make contact with the hole (think high speed derailment). These things are moving faster than the speed of sound so the pressure wave wouldn't catch up to those already past the breach.  Those that are heading towards the breach will be slowed by the increase in air pressure helping to slow them from hitting the breach.  Overall, I think they're as safe as subways if not *safer*.


I think we're talking about different things, unless you're thinking of the same thing, since air leaking through the capsule(s) in a vast loop, minus air i.e. in a vacuum, will result in an explosive decompression. This would happen in space or the moon, if you weren't wearing your space suits. Though *RejZoR'*s explanation sounds more reasonable but *what happens after all the* *air has escaped*, the process wouldn't take too much time I'd like to think.

I don't think so, so many things can go wrong now that I think about it, *hyperloop* or whatever other name they come up with atm sounds like a trip I wouldn't wanna take unless I'm high or intoxicated.


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## RejZoR (Apr 12, 2017)

Frick said:


> Probably, but Musks crazy ideas seem to have a strange way of working out in the long run.



If Tesla and PayPal work, that doens't mean this will. Mostly because Tesla and PayPal don't go against laws of physics. Hyperloop is trying to do that. It just tries to bypass so many limitations is just makes no sense at all. We don't have the right technology yet and we won't have it for quite a while. Space exploration is easy, it's just empty space which is already there. Creating vacuum on Earth with atmospheric pressure around, that's something you'll have a lot of problems with. You just need to use basic physics knowledge and some common sense to see the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

Because depressurizing entire tubes at such ridiculous lenghts just doesn't make sense as it'll take WAY too long. Solution to this would be a bulkhead section at stations, so you'd only have to depressurizing tiny section. The rest would have to be under CONSTANT vacuum. The section at stations would depressurizing to same level as the rest, open the bulkhead to connect both and move. But if there was maintenance required in main section, they'd have to let air in, do the maintenance and depressurize it again, meaning the thing wouldn't be operational for several days. Working in space suits inside Hyperloop doesn't seem like a logical thing even though they'd probably be forced to do in order to avoid long downtimes. Which also brings all the limitations of working in airless space, minus the low gravity.

And having entire Hyperloop depressurized at all times means incredible forces on the tube itself, the entire time. Which just calls for disaster...


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## FordGT90Concept (Apr 12, 2017)

R0H1T said:


> I think we're talking about different things, unless you're thinking of the same thing, since air leaking through the capsule(s) in a vast loop, minus air i.e. in a vacuum, will result in an explosive decompression. This would happen in space or the moon, if you weren't wearing your space suits. Though *RejZoR'*s explanation sounds more reasonable but *what happens after all the* *air has escaped*, the process wouldn't take too much time I'd like to think.
> 
> I don't think so, so many things can go wrong now that I think about it, *hyperloop* or whatever other name they come up with atm sounds like a trip I wouldn't wanna take unless I'm high or intoxicated.


Hyperloop is a partial vacuum, not a complete vacuum.  The greater the pressure differential, the harder it is to maintain.

Space and moon, the only air is what is contained in the suit.  A hole in the suit leads to asphyxiation, nothing explosive.

Bare in mind that the act of recycling air and maintaining the partial vacuum can also aid in vehicle transportation.  We already overpressurize automobile tunnels to prevent them from becoming toxic.  Hyperloop is basically the opposite where the vehicle itself pressurizes for its occupants.

Bare in mind that vehicles can move through the hyperloop if the pressure is atmospheric.  They just won't be able to move as fast/efficiently.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Apr 17, 2017)

'Based on the high-quality submissions and overwhelming enthusiasm surrounding the first competition, SpaceX has moved forward with Hyperloop Pod Competition II, which will culminate in a second competition on August 25-27, 2017, at SpaceX’s Hyperloop track,' the firm revealed today.

'Hyperloop Competition II focus on a single criterion: maximum speed. 

'The competition will include new and returning student teams, some of which have already built and tested their pods during the first competition.'
https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/14/spacex-hyperloop-pod-competition-2-top-speed/


My money is on this lot for the win
https://badgerloop.com/#/home


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## dorsetknob (Apr 17, 2017)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> My money is on this lot for the win
> https://badgerloop.com/#/home


 and there was me thinking   CAPS is posting links to badger flavored SPAM


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Apr 17, 2017)




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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Aug 2, 2017)

Hyperloop One has completed the first successful test of the passenger pod for its radical transport system, marking what the firm says is the debut of 'the dawn of a new era of transportation'.

Last month the firm carried out a low speed test of its test tunnel, but now it has loaded the XP-1 passenger pod for its first high speed test.

The Hyperloop One XP-1, the company's first-generation pod, accelerated for 300 meters and glided above the track using magnetic levitation before braking and coming to a gradual stop.








The July 29, 2017, tests hit record test speeds traveling nearly the full distance of the 500-meter DevLoop track in the Nevada desert.

'This is the beginning, and the dawn of a new era of transportation,' said Shervin Pishevar, Executive Chairman and Co-founder of Hyperloop One. 

'We've reached historic speeds of 310 km an hour, and we're excited to finally show the world the XP-1 going into the Hyperloop One tube. 

'When you hear the sound of the Hyperloop One, you hear the sound of the future.'

During phase 2 on July 29th, Hyperloop One achieved record speeds, in a tube depressurized down to the equivalent of air at 200,000 feet above sea level. 

All components of the system were successfully tested, including the highly efficient electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension and vacuum system.

With Hyperloop One, passengers and cargo are loaded into a pod, and accelerate gradually via electric propulsion through a low-pressure tube. 

The pod quickly lifts above the track using magnetic levitation and glides at airline speeds for long distances due to ultra-low aerodynamic drag.

















The test took place in the early morning of May 12 at the test site just outside of Las Vegas, where the firm says a complete systems test is now soon to follow.

'Ever since we started the company three years ago, we've been aimed at this moment, the instant when we achieve controlled propulsion and levitation of a Hyperloop One vehicle in a vacuum environment,' wrote Hyperloop One co-founders josh Giegel and Shervin Pishevar, in a blog post.

Inside a 1,640-foot-long tube, the firm has so far installed nearly 1,000 feet of motor.

The tube is able to reduce air pressure 'down to the equivalent of 200,000 feet above sea level,' which will ultimately enable top speeds of about 250 miles per hour at the DevLoop track.

The new XP-1 vehicle, the pod that will carry out these tests, has a carbon fiber and aluminium aeroshell with a levitating chassis, for 'suspension, lift, guidance and propulsion,' the blog post explains.











https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/we-made-history-two-minutes-after-midnight-may-12


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Aug 29, 2017)

Musk shared footage from the Hyperloop competition this weekend, with a look at a pod test from the winning team, WARR, which hit more than 200 miles per hour in the .8 mile-long tube.


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## RejZoR (Aug 29, 2017)

Just a reminder that Shinkansen trains can reach up to 375 MPH at full atmospheric pressure. Hyperloop has very big boots to fill in with all the fancy stuff they are bragging about so much and has yet to show any kind of results...


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## notb (Aug 29, 2017)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> Musk shared footage from the Hyperloop competition this weekend, with a look at a pod test from the winning team, WARR, which hit more than 200 miles per hour in the .8 mile-long tube.


A very nice acceleration... for cargo...
I also wonder how will they fix cornering. Different pods will have different weight and cargo, but since this is a "maglev", they will have to corner at the same angle.
Maglev trains adjust speed for cornering, but the weight variance is not that great (since the train is pretty heavy itself).



CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> The tube is able to reduce air pressure 'down to the equivalent of 200,000 feet above sea level,' which will ultimately enable top speeds of about 250 miles per hour at the DevLoop track.


Last time I checked the planned pressure was around 100Pa - that's something typical at 48km ~= 160kft. This was already a concern.
The fact that they have to go much "higher" is fairly worrying, because that means just 20Pa...
And being able to achieve just 250mph at such low pressure is a disaster. The whole Hyperloop idea got popularity (and funds...) because it was expected to hit 700-800 mph.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Aug 29, 2017)

I have huge doubt for this hyperloop. I love new technology and I don't doubt that the hyperloop being impossible. It engineering possible with current technolgy but extremely economically not feasible. To even attain the almost spacelike vacuum required you would need the tubes to made as thick as a submarine hull at least with reinforcing rings to overcome atmospheric pressure as well as making point of failure harder to achieve for safety reasons.

Add to this the train stops requiring airtight lock and doors for it to keep the vacuum in. You creating space like conditions on Earth in the tube.

So this so economically outrageous. Trains with better aerodynamic bodies would be alot cheaper and so much more easily done with less safety issues.


Edit: Thinking about this if there is submarine engineers is combined with train engineers I see this project would have a great engineering start. Looking at current efforts it does not look too good.


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## notb (Aug 29, 2017)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> So this so economically outrageous. Trains with better aerodynamic bodies would be alot cheaper and so much more easily done with less safety issues.


Well... the main issue with Hyperloop is that it's not really solving any problem. It will not make something entirely new possible (like ships, cars and planes did), nor will it make it cheap and massive (like trains do).

It'll be competing with currently available solutions. It might be better in some specific cases (like ~500km inter-city journeys on flat, uninhabited terrain), but much worse in everything else.

There is a (highly) possible future scenario in which we all travel in this kind of unified, small, autonomous pods - both to work and to the next country. But a long tunnel depressurized to 20Pa is unlikely a part of it.

That said, I kind of understand why Hyperloop got so much traction in US - California in particular. American trains are notoriously slow and Americans do travel a lot between their cities (compared to other nations). So a "hyperloop triangle" connecting San Francisco, Los Angeles and Las Vegas would clearly work. Few other cities (like Phoenix) could join as well.
Also, thanks to high sunlight exposure in that area, hyperloop tubes covered with solar panels (as Musk plans) would make sense.

I just don't think this would make sense in Europe, which is way more crowded and has much faster trains. Maybe for airport connections...


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## Steevo (Aug 29, 2017)

It would be more energy efficient to use the solar panels to create hydrogen and burn that for heavier than air flight. By the time you pump all the air out, each and every time a train arrives or leaves, accelerate it, decelerate it (not the technical term I know) and the issues they are going to have with differential expansion and contraction.... the amount of concrete (CO2 intensive) needed to build and support it, the wiring, panels, local ecosystem disruption, fences required to keep people away, etc..... 

Its the best pipe dream.


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## RejZoR (Aug 29, 2017)

It took them half a day to depressurize a tiny short segment. Only feasible way would be to have main pipe under constant low pressure/vacuum and depressurize/pressurize only bulkheads at stations. Basically, when this "train" would stop, doors would close in front and behind it, pressurize only that segment and do the reverse when people are boarded. I just see those bulheads as a danger then. Also, when they'll be doing maintenance, this would mean they'd have to pressurize ENTIRE thing. Which could take days just to depressurize again. It's just a VERY impractical design either way.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Aug 29, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> It took them half a day to depressurize a tiny short segment. Only feasible way would be to have main pipe under constant low pressure/vacuum and depressurize/pressurize only bulkheads at stations. Basically, when this "train" would stop, doors would close in front and behind it, pressurize only that segment and do the reverse when people are boarded. I just see those bulheads as a danger then. Also, when they'll be doing maintenance, this would mean they'd have to pressurize ENTIRE thing. Which could take days just to depressurize again. It's just a VERY impractical design either way.



The way you describe how *you* think it works really does make it impractical, but I'm sure they are not showing us everything. Give these credit, they are smarter then you.  

There will be seals in place so they dont have to de/presurize the entire tube, it would be really stupid to design it that way.


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## RejZoR (Aug 29, 2017)

What "seals"? You can't just place magical "seals" in a tube where a "tube train" is expected to move through. What are you going to be sealing it from and more importantly, how? Just saying "uh oh they are smarter" doesn't really explain anything. Maybe I'm not an engineer on paper, but I'm not stupid. If you depressurize some structure and you want to move passengers in and out of it, you need some sort of mechanism to achieve that. After seeing they needed like 8 hours to depressurize just few 10 meters of the tube, I knew they'll need different approach to achieve low vacuum without "draining" entire several hundred miles long tube which would take days even with pumps every few 100 meters. Only way to achieve that is by using bulkheads at "train stations" so they can have the main tube depressurized at all times and they only need to pressurize/depressurize small sections at the stations, possibly only taking few seconds to a minute or two with high performance pumps. Similar to how pressurization chambers on space station or underwater stations are designed/used. I see no other method to bridge two spaces at different atmospheric pressures.


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## notb (Aug 29, 2017)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> There will be seals in place so they dont have to de/presurize the entire tube, it would be really stupid to design it that way.


I think what you mean by "seal" is an airlock. If so, you're right - that's how these systems are meant to work.
But @RejZoR talks about both the "stations" and the tunnel. The tunnel is a continuous structure and it's very unlikely there will be any "locks" that would make it possible to depressurize small segments. Even if they existed (not that hard to imagine and build them), they won't be fast enough in an emergency depressurization (or a leak).



RejZoR said:


> Only feasible way would be to have main pipe under constant low pressure/vacuum and depressurize/pressurize only bulkheads at stations.


Obviously yes. Furthermore, you don't want pressure in the whole tunnel to be changing all the time - it would kill the structure way faster than keeping constant 20Pa or so.
That said...


> Basically, when this "train" would stop, doors would close in front and behind it, pressurize only that segment and do the reverse when people are boarded.


This is still fairly complicated and would take a while. Impossible to start a pod every 30 seconds like Musk wants to.
At least 2 solutions:
1) a sealed entrance system to the pod ("corridor") - much like entrance systems in submarines or spaceships,
2) depressurizing not by pumps but by expansion, which would simply need a larger tank with slightly lower pressure (this one with pumps).

And there are other issues as well. Like when something goes wrong and the maglev propulsion is switched off - the pods will switch to tiny electric motors - traveling at maybe 30 km/h, maybe a bit faster. Think about it... you're trapped in a very, very tiny pod, in a tunnel in the middle of a desert. They said you'll be in Las Vegas in 40 minutes, but it'll take 10 hours. There is no bathroom, there is no food or water... Actually, you can't even stand up and straighten your legs - most hyperloop designes are seated only, because you're not allowed to release your seatbelt during the normal travel anyway...

But I love the project. I love all the tiny problems that scientists and engineers will have to solve to make this feasible. Even if hyperloop turns out to be a failure, this will be such an excellent exercise for human intelligence. And - possibly - a mine of useful inventions. For example they will have to develop a much better solution for oxygen masks than the one we have on planes today - I'm sure there will be a way to use this outside the project.

And make no mistake - we might have been traveling to space for decades, but hyperloop is in many ways a lot more difficult.

IF you remove the low pressure element... you still end up with an interesting transportation system. Actually it's a lot more possible, futuristic and elastic. It's likely that we'll travel by "pods" everywhere in the future - both in tunnels and in open air. So the whole idea is good. It's just that Musk needed high speeds to make this attractive to investors.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 29, 2017)

notb said:


> I think what you mean by "seal" is an airlock. If so, you're right - that's how these systems are meant to work.
> But @RejZoR talks about both the "stations" and the tunnel. The tunnel is a continuous structure and it's very unlikely there will be any "locks" that would make it possible to depressurize small segments. Even if they existed (not that hard to imagine and build them), they won't be fast enough in an emergency depressurization (or a leak).


I expect there will be locks every mile or so that automatically close, equalize pressure, and open for cars to pass by.  Stations would be built on side-rails with gated locks to maintain low pressure on the main lines.

And yeah, I think the opinion that Hyperloop is a "pipe dream" is true.  The partial vacuum is too costly to maintain for the benefit it offers.  The energy spent on maintaining the partial vacuum is likely better off put into the cars themselves at atmospheric pressure.


There's absolutely nothing impressive about that video.  Cars can do the same thing sans the vacuum:








Hyperloop WARR doesn't accelerate faster but it did brake faster.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Aug 29, 2017)

Musk is an excellent Idea man, but poor with the whole actual implementation.

Tesla and SpaceX are a cadre of engineers making his vision a reality.  The Hyperloop is not a practical vision, because it goes against physics.

1) The tube is long, and thus will experience multiple temperatures.  Materials expand and contract in variable temperatures.  If you doubt this, go to a long bridge and look at the expansion joints at each end which connects to land.  Now instead of a few thousand feet of bridge, imagine a thousand miles of metal tube.  Variations in expansion mean that you've got to account for hundreds of feet of variation, in a device that must be sealed.  This didn't work on the SR-71 Blackbird (they leaked fuel constantly so that at temperature they were sealed), and won't work on a tube across California.
2) Earthquakes.  Geological instability is a huge concern, when your cushion for error is a few inches at most.  Ever wonder why a rifle is rifled?  Incongruity within the barrel creates friction, causing linear momentum to be converted into rotational momentum.  The difference is a bullet is meant to kill something, while this is supposed to be transit.

3) Vacuum.  People seem to not get this, but the level of vacuum here isn't something you can create with a small motor.  The proposed vacuum is more akin to space than anything else.  The potential energy in said vacuum, simply stored by preventing the surrounding atmosphere from entering, is huge.  If the vacuum is breached it isn't just one piece of the track that is destroyed, and the danger isn't a compression wave.  Atmospheric pressure exposure would generate a huge variation in temperature, as air streamed in.  The shock wave of air rushing in would not gently stop cars, but slam into them travelling fast enough to shred them.  Air resistance is represented by F = (air density)(drag)(area)(velocity)^2/2.  This means that the velocity of the car+velocity of the oncoming air would be what is experienced.  These pods weigh 300 Kg.  I would not guess that they are designed to stop the associated forces.  I would guess that a steel block wouldn't be able to withstand those forces.  The image of "gently slowing down" is patently incorrect.  
4) Energy neutral?  This is the same stupidity as solar roadways.  Your fridge at home has a pump that is capable of a few atmospheres of pressure.  Run it constantly, with a solar panel, and I'll believe this insanity.  You've got half the day for sun.  You've got to generate enough energy to maintain bullet velocities, while overcoming internal resistance.  The idea of decreasing resistances with a vacuum is novel, for about 100 years ago.  (kinetic energy)=mv^2.  Friction is a function of air resistance and other kinetic resistances.  The faster you go, the more resistance you experience.  Doing some simple thinking, this means that the only way you'd generate energy is if the tube never decompressed, the resistance would be near 0, and you had a drive system with virtually no hysteresis or other losses.  A maglev system in a perfect vacuum is not capable of this with current materials and a lack of huge investment.

5) The testing is a dud.  Watch the videos.  For the same amount of energy, in less time, I can walk.  They traveled less than a few hundred feet, after a huge chunk of time creating the vacuum.  There's a difference between a proof of concept, and demonstration of fighting physics.  Musk has already demonstrated he can't make it work, by having students design the vehicles.  If he had a working model we wouldn't be seeing such a huge reaction to this supposed "success," we'd be seeing the test tube running at somewhere near the quoted performance.
6) Musk has not accounted for the human factor.  Tesla is for the rich, who can blow money on a toy.  The "family" version of the vehicle has yet to be embraced.  SpaceX is at best a very expensive NASA replacement.  Paypal was a piece of software that to this day is struggling to find its footing between the darkest markets and legitimacy.  Musk is an idea man, with little in the way of realistic goals.  This has served him well, but this is a stupid dream.  It would take virtually nothing to make this idea fail, and the failures would be...let's call them less game of thrones and more frog in a blender level gory.  If people are afraid for what happens in a plane crash, let them see one pod slam into an atmospheric pressure wave at speed.  Those people who have....more rural...backgrounds might know what happens when a large caliber bullet hits a prairie dog.  Imagine that human size.  The flow resistance from the fluids of the body generates enough force that the body functionally pops.


So we are clear, make this a high speed train that doesn't stop in every other town and we'd be better off.  As was said before, Musk is trying to hide the train with science because the average US citizen believes all trains suck as much as Amtrack.  After a year in Europe, you'd be a fool not to acquiesce to trains over planes.  It doesn't take long to understand that a 200 mph train, versus a 288 mph plane, without a huge TSA wait and take-off/landing would mean trains are a better time to distance equation for any transit going less than half of the width of the continental US (as the crow flies).  Even building in inefficiency, going across California as advertised would be infinitely cheaper and safer with a maglev train rather than the imagined Hyperloop.  

As a catastrophic image, imagine a single idiot with a bomb.  Said bomb doesn't breach the tube, but it does breach the pod.  Death for those inside would be....let's call it an act of mercy.  Maybe the pod is constructed out of aluminum to save on weight.  A small bottle of mercury and hydrochloric acid could breach the walls of the pod.  Now that we've seen the worst, let's cross our fingers and hope Musk isn't as stupid as the people behind solar roadways.  I don't hold that hope highly, but I'm hoping that human lives aren't expended before somebody decides that the proposed idea isn't feasible right now.  Never thought I'd praise solar roadways, but at least their scam didn't cost human lives...hopefully the Hyperloop can say the same.


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## RejZoR (Aug 30, 2017)

With aluminium construction, you don't even need a bomb. Just some galium that would deteriorate the structure over time until it would catastrophically fail. I doubt train stations would do metal detector checks like airports...

PayPal works, so does Tesla. But they don't go against the laws of physics. They are just refined things of stuff we already had/have. Doing train travel in low pressure tubes is neither. There were some concepts and probably test tries, but people just gave up coz it wasn't practical. And still isn't. And I very much doubt it'll ever be.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 30, 2017)

Tesla doesn't work.  Company has only reported a profit in a single quarter of its existence so far.






There were many rumors stemming from the 1970s about nuclear subterrene boring machines which could be made into a near complete vacuum.  It would allow for travel at 1000s of miles per hour underground connecting military installations at major cities.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Aug 30, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> What "seals"? You can't just place magical "seals" in a tube where a "tube train" is expected to move through. What are you going to be sealing it from and more importantly, how? Just saying "uh oh they are smarter" doesn't really explain anything. Maybe I'm not an engineer on paper, but I'm not stupid. If you depressurize some structure and you want to move passengers in and out of it, you need some sort of mechanism to achieve that. After seeing they needed like 8 hours to depressurize just few 10 meters of the tube, I knew they'll need different approach to achieve low vacuum without "draining" entire several hundred miles long tube which would take days even with pumps every few 100 meters. Only way to achieve that is by using bulkheads at "train stations" so they can have the main tube depressurized at all times and they only need to pressurize/depressurize small sections at the stations, possibly only taking few seconds to a minute or two with high performance pumps. Similar to how pressurization chambers on space station or underwater stations are designed/used. I see no other method to bridge two spaces at different atmospheric pressures.


What you are complaining about is a TEST tube so no none of the obvious "things" required to make this work are not in place. This tube was meant to test speeds and the technology involved. Your other complaint involve practical usage and how to implement that, Im sure that even prior to build this TEST tube the people behind already figured that out and isnt part of this particular test phase. SO ya, my guess is that they are way ahead of you on everything you pointed out. 





lilhasselhoffer said:


> This didn't work on the SR-71 Blackbird (they leaked fuel constantly so that at temperature they were sealed), and won't work on a tube across California.


iirc, It was purposely designed this way so that at higher altitudes the tanks wouldnt rupture.


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## RejZoR (Aug 30, 2017)

If they had a functional features, they wouldn't let test observers be bored for 8 hours as they pump out some air...


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## lilhasselhoffer (Aug 31, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> With aluminium construction, you don't even need a bomb. Just some galium that would deteriorate the structure over time until it would catastrophically fail. I doubt train stations would do metal detector checks like airports...
> 
> PayPal works, so does Tesla. But they don't go against the laws of physics. They are just refined things of stuff we already had/have. Doing train travel in low pressure tubes is neither. There were some concepts and probably test tries, but people just gave up coz it wasn't practical. And still isn't. And I very much doubt it'll ever be.



Gallium and Mercury function in similar ways.  They degrade the mechanical properties of the metal.

I used the bomb as a terrible example of a failure where train passengers would experience catastrophic decompression.  The other example was meant to be catastrophic pressure increases.  Both are...let's call it grisly in the extreme.  If either actually happened you wouldn't be able to tell what bits belonged to whom.



DeathtoGnomes said:


> iirc, It was purposely designed this way so that at higher altitudes the tanks wouldnt rupture.



Incorrect, or at least partially mistaken.  The design was a function of the extreme temperatures experienced.  The coefficient of thermal expansion (in meters/meter/degree C) variation between materials meant that once fully heated, the internal forces would rip the structure apart unless they could expand beyond what was allowed by sealed components.  As such, the plane leaked on the ground but once heated up was presumably quite tightly sealed (presumably because I have not observed, but because the planes didn't explode or crash.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Tesla doesn't work.  Company has only reported a profit in a single quarter of its existence so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a rather vast gulf between profitability, and functionality.

To that point, SpaceX is a failure on profitability.  Tesla is structured as a profit sink, largely subsidized by grants, until hopefully the market penetration becomes such that their costs produce a viable company.  As much as I hate to say, the Simpsons did a good job with Musk.  He's not thinking about today, or tomorrow.  He's pitching ideas and finding ways to get other people to support them until technology and thinking make them profitable.

With all this said, this is Musk's invasion of Russia in the winter.  Hyperloop doesn't need a near perfect vacuum, but the one they intend to create is crazy dangerous.  People seem not to understand that atmospheric pressure is substantial, and that even a 1% atmosphere tube would require huge amounts of energy.  There is no material science that will solve this, or technology that will allow it.  You're looking at pure physics, and a project scale that is orders of magnitude too big.  You can't just create a new industry with subsidies, you've got to find a way to overcome variables which aren't trivial.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html 
Aluminum = 21-24 M/M*10^-6/Degree K
Steel = 9.9-17.3 M/M*10^-6/Degree K
Length of West Hyperloop is 121 miles = 194731 meters

Do the math.  If you had just a few degrees difference in a steel tube you're looking at several meters of shrinkage or expansion.  Of course, that's going to be uneven.  Now you're also looking at a physical expansion or contraction of the tube length.  Volume in a tube is PI()*r^2*L (r being tube controlled, L being a function of thermal expansion and contraction), so you're going to have to account for those vacuum pumps and relief valves equalizing pressure constantly.  The test track is a joke because all of the big problems aren't there.  It's like designing a car and telling everyone that the car is 90% production ready because you've settled on the shape of the headlight bezels.  Yes, you've surmounted some of the challenge.  On the other hand, the challenge bested is not a significant step toward addressing the big issues.

Tesla bested the question of energy storage by building their own battery factory.  SpaceX bested the issue of rocket design by having a few explode (I still wouldn't pay to ride one of them, for fear of not coming back).  Hyperloop has bested....nothing.  They can weld up a tube and create a vacuum.  The facilities that Nitride coat steel are more impressive, given that they produce something useful with a vacuum chamber.  What has been demonstrated thus far is that we've made no meaningful progress toward ideas made in the early 1900's.  The maglev trains running at 200+ mph are real, demonstrated reliable, and don't require magic to work.  


-Note: anyone mentioning the insane clown posse after the above must flagellate themselves.


-edit-


DeathtoGnomes said:


> What you are complaining about is a TEST tube so no none of the obvious "things" required to make this work are not in place. This tube was meant to test speeds and the technology involved. Your other complaint involve practical usage and how to implement that, Im sure that even prior to build this TEST tube the people behind already figured that out and isnt part of this particular test phase. SO ya, my guess is that they are way ahead of you on everything you pointed out.



Imagine a test track for a car, which was only two car lengths long.  Said track was composed of ideal surfaces to drive on, ideal atmospheric conditions, and ideal atmospheric properties.  Inside said test track, your car barely started.  It inched 3/4 of a car length forward before running out of gasoline.  It cost twenty thousand dollars to produce the car.  Finally, the car took eight hours to do the 3/4 of a car length worth of movement.

Is this car a success?  

Objectively:
1) The car is inefficient.
2) The car didn't go very far.
3) The car was slower than conventional travel methods.
4) The cost was insane.

That's what the team demonstrated.  Under ideal conditions the massive investment produced transportation less efficient than what we have already.  Heck, I didn't even see them using their "track mounted solar array" to power the vacuum pumps.  

If you fail that hard, under ideal conditions, then you aren't ready to start an ambitious project.  You need to stop, consider the idea, and determine how to proceed.  Hyperloop is a project based upon a name and vague theoretical promises.  It's the prospect of winning big in Las Vegas, only less likely because real risk to human life isn't fundamentally part of a Las Vegas casino.


If you want to disagree, then I'd suggest showing us something better.  Not CG images, not an artist's rendering, and definitely not a promise from somebody who has as spotty a track record as Musk (despite the huge PR the man garners). 

I like Nathan Fillion as an actor.  He's an idiot when it came to solar roadways.  An argument from authority, on a project that is literally without authorities, is a poor argument.  I'd be interested in how the DoT even responds to this insanity when someone demonstrates how many different ways this project could fail.  This is why flying cars exist, but are so heavily regulated.  Dangerous items require large oversight.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Aug 31, 2017)

The Juggalo nation wasnt built over night, neither was Rome. You have to accept that solutions will come as the need for them become relevant enough to deal with them and in a timely manner.  You could say the hyperloop is in trial and error phase. Then the question becomes a question of even have the right tools. removing air to 0 pressure is not the same as having a vacuum, but it is easier to get to 0 then it is to get to 29 inches (like in AC systems).  Have they even said how low they are trying take the vacuum and what level do they want to maintain?


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2017)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> The maglev trains running at 200+ mph are real, demonstrated reliable, and don't require magic to work.


The real kicker is that the government itself wanted to create a high-speed (non-maglev) rail between these cities Musk does (pretty sure it inspired him).  He took an idea that failed for engineering reasons (cost, difficulty of boring through the mountains, areas that the train would have to operate at ~highway speeds for safety, etc.) and added layers of engineering problems on top with the partial vacuum.  It's preposterous.

And remember the political climate this started in: Pelosi (D-CA, Speaker of the House) and Reid (D-NV, Senate Majority Leader) wanted to create a high speed rail between Las Vegas (NV), San Francisco (CA), and Los Angeles (CA).  Note the obvious conflict of interest.  Then note how these cities are notorious for not using mass transit.  Then note the terrain they want to cross.  Then note all the high speed trains in the USA operate on the east coast where none of these things are true (mass transit use is prolific, the terrain is much easier to tackle, and they're already flat enough to handle 90+ MPH trains).  I'd say the whole idea started with a criminal misappropriation of funds.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 1, 2017)

Wasnt there something in Popular Mechanics back int he 70s about such a tunnel system?


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## lilhasselhoffer (Sep 1, 2017)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> The Juggalo nation wasnt built over night, neither was Rome. You have to accept that solutions will come as the need for them become relevant enough to deal with them and in a timely manner.  You could say the hyperloop is in trial and error phase. Then the question becomes a question of even have the right tools. removing air to 0 pressure is not the same as having a vacuum, but it is easier to get to 0 then it is to get to 29 inches (like in AC systems).  Have they even said how low they are trying take the vacuum and what level do they want to maintain?



I think you don't understand physics very well.  Namely, you seem to not understand that everything we've ever built (barring religion) is based upon observed natural laws.  Technology is not magically overcoming physics, but finding a new way to manipulate the surrounding world using these laws.  A simple block and tackle doesn't make your muscles more powerful, it changes mechanical forces such that applied energy is (relatively speaking) conserved but expressed in a different manner.


There is no such thing as a perfect vacuum ("0" as you describe it).  Generating pressure differentials is based upon ambient sources, and functionally roughly as an inverse squared relationship.  This means that generating a perfect vacuum would take nearly infinite energy, especially given the size of the proposed loop.  For an idea, look at the following graph: https://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Atmosphere/pressure_vs_altitude.html.  It takes about 15 Km of atmospheric travel only to get to 100 millibar.

Inches of what?  Mercury or water.  Science without units is useless.  To answer the poignant question, 1 millibar.  That's about 0.1% atmospheric pressure.  That is an insane vacuum to maintain.   0.401865 inches of water, or 0.02953 inches of mercury for those unwilling to do any background research.


Rome was not built in a day, and neither was it built out of dried pasta noodles.  This is something that bothers the heck out of me personally.  People just say "technology will catch up to people eventually."  No, it won't.  The technology to develop better polymers, and make bullet proof vests, is technology catching up with an idea.  The key here is simple physics doesn't indicate that a problem is impossible, while the Hyperloop does.  No technology can overcome the physical laws it is based upon.  You can't simply invent a technology to overcome fricative losses.  If you could, the "technology" for free energy would allow humanity to avoid the Hyperloop.  A free energy generator could create a gigantic arc light bulb, by ionizing low (read: 40% atmospheric) pressure air and having a cabin with a strong magnet both float on the charge particles, and be driven forward at insane accelerations.  Back on Earth, physical laws shape what technology does. 

Imagine for a moment we invented a new alloy that was better under loading, and thus would allow the Hyperloop to be built without fearing decompression.  You still have to account for thermal expansion.  Further, the alloy was somehow uniquely able to shape itself, somehow negating thermal expansion considerations.  You've still got to maintain the vacuum.  Let's imagine the vacuum pumps could be powered by some new form of solar panel.  You still have to lay this track somewhere, despite the region being geologically unstable.  By this point you've got a magical alloy, based on technology beyond anything our current understanding of physics can predict or even suggest existing.

Back on planet Earth, let's review.  No possible construction material.  Insufficient safety factor for operation.  Insufficient monetary investment.  Based upon an idea literally sketched out in the 1920's and whose patent died because there was literally no means by which such a device can be built without destroying physics as we know it.


If you don't understand that Musk is...let's call it eternally optimistic...I'll gladly point you in the direction of Solar Roadways.  The physics and numbers don't add up there either, but they got government money to make a single broken strip of panels.  Panels that never supported traffic, don't work in the daylight, don't have the longevity to be a good building material, take more energy to power than they generate, and cost significantly more (in both environmental impact and actual money) than the thing they replaced.  Solar Roadways are what I think Musk would have done, if he had no understanding of physics at all.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 1, 2017)

Lets clear this up right now so we can keep the conversation interesting and dignified.  Dont take what I say out of context, I know enough to get myself into trouble, I dont mind when people correct me if/when I am wrong but dont be condescending about it.

You misunderstand what I wrote, I did not say 0 pressure was a perfect vacuum, in HVAC and automotive applications 29 inches of mercury has been _labeled_ perfect.  Not everyone is a trained rocket scientist and even they understand that a common glossary is needed to communicate with outside their circle of nerddom. Us technicians dont use millibars since we dont need to have exact measurements and explaining that so people that dont understand just makes it easier to use PSI and other non-science related wording. From my practical use and understand of AC systems it is easier to pump down a closed system to 0 pressure (not the 14.7psi at sea level... 0) than it is to to get 29 inches from 0. 


I will say using a block and tackle certainly does make your muscles more powerful, to an extent. I am living proof.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Sep 4, 2017)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> Lets clear this up right now so we can keep the conversation interesting and dignified.  Dont take what I say out of context, I know enough to get myself into trouble, I dont mind when people correct me if/when I am wrong but dont be condescending about it.
> 
> You misunderstand what I wrote, I did not say 0 pressure was a perfect vacuum, in HVAC and automotive applications 29 inches of mercury has been _labeled_ perfect.  Not everyone is a trained rocket scientist and even they understand that a common glossary is needed to communicate with outside their circle of nerddom. Us technicians dont use millibars since we dont need to have exact measurements and explaining that so people that dont understand just makes it easier to use PSI and other non-science related wording. From my practical use and understand of AC systems it is easier to pump down a closed system to 0 pressure (not the 14.7psi at sea level... 0) than it is to to get 29 inches from 0.
> 
> ...




Let me be clear, you do not know what you are talking about, by Musk's design.  I say this because you don't understand exactly what the mathematics and physics are based upon, because you are basing them off of your pragmatic experience.
-edit-
Please, let me be clear on this.  Engineers can say anything on paper, it takes a good grease monkey to make that paper actually work.  To do that, somebody has to be pragmatic.  Part of the issue here is Musk obfuscates this.  He says a vacuum, defines it elsewhere, and uses measurements most people don't get.  If he said 0.00147 PSI (that's real, not gauge) then we'd know he's insane.  By hiding his math behind better than base level physics he's trying to fool people.  It's not their fault, it's his intention to be so obtuse.  You've also described the difference between PSI (absolute) and PSI (gauge), which is often something people don't know to account for.
-edit-



From a technician level, a measurement of pressure is scaled, such that what you read is what you would get from instruments.  From the perspective of AC, Musk is doing rocket science while you're working at Kitty Hawk.  It's not that you are ignorant, only that you're trying to measure the first three feet of the ocean, and apply those results to the various trenches.  This is the same kind of thinking that necessitate Rankine and Kelvin temperature scales, which are Fahrenheit and Celsius with a numerical shift such that absolute zero = 0.


1000 millibar is approximately atmospheric pressure.  If you had a tube at 1000 millibar, it would provide a zero pressure reading because atmospheric = internal.  AC runs on pressure, because the act of condensing a gas to a liquid (under pressure, within the lovely phase-pressure-temperature graphing) absorbs a boat load of energy during phase conversion but requires pressure to get to the right conditions.

In your example, imagine if you had to pressurize thousands of AC systems at once, to 1000 atmospheres (14.7 psi = 1 atmosphere, so 14700 psi).  This is what people often don't get.  Musk's 1 millibar isn't a vacuum like you know it.  It isn't a vacuum packed bag of food, or an industrial grade cleaning vacuum.  It's a vacuum that literally would pulp you because if the external pressure your body was designed to work with was removed like this you would...let's call is Hell Raiser meets Nightmare on Elm Street with a helping of Toxic Avenger.


For reference, this is why I made the earlier comment that we'd need magic to make this work.  I'm analytically minded, so whenever the science is too good to be true I can usually work out why it is.  Musk has literally taken a god idea (maglev trains), polished it with a bad idea (high vacuum tubes), and extruded it through the campy 1920's optimism that thought science was magical because humans are fundamentally stupid and don't want the truth (seriously, patents for this go back to before world war 1).  The difference is that Musk is somebody that gets listened to because....I'm still unable to define why.  In my book, the people we should praise are his engineers and procurement specialists.  They took the half formed dreams of Musk, and made them....mostly...work.


Likewise, levers don't make you stronger.  They allow greater forces to be applied, or forces to be applied over greater distances.  I'll gladly admit that twisting off a lug nut is often easier with an extension, but afterwards I haven't gained strength so much as demonstrated why the evolution of a large brain has been the best thing for homo sapiens.  Even the Amish often cheat, despite their claimed indifference to technology.  Yay barn raisings.



-Edit-
http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/nerd...at-reaches-200mph/vi-AAqUzdC?ocid=mailsignout

He's finally made it to 200 mph, with no independent confirmation.  Still not at the bullet train speeds.  Also, nothing near the speed that was promised.

At least a little momentum....?


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## Norton (Sep 4, 2017)

Let's keep this thread on topic please- there's no reason for taking jabs at other members while discussing the topic.

Forum guidelines are expected to be followed (applies to everyone):
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/forum-guidelines.197329/

We'll be presenting _generous rewards_ for not following the guidelines past this point....


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## dorsetknob (Sep 4, 2017)

*Beyond Hyperloop: Chinese scientists board ‘vacuum train’ for possible military projects*

Story here
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/poli...perloop-chinese-scientists-board-vacuum-train
China’s scientists are looking to develop military applications for experimental technology behind an ultra high-speed “vacuum” transport system, according to a researcher involved in one of the projects

and here
*China: Cute Hyperloop Elon, now watch how it's really done*
Elon Musk might have popularized the idea of a Hyperloop transport system, but the Chinese have taken up the idea and plan to make it better – with 4,000km/h (2,485mi/h) bullet trains planned for the Middle Kingdom.

The Chinese concept is for a "supersonic flying train," with the carriage floating on magnetic levitation tracks and running in tubes that have been pumped out to a near-vacuum. If you think that sounds like Hyperloop you'd be right, but while Musk is envisaging a barely subsonic transport system, the Chinese have much more ambitious plans.

Story link here
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/01/china_hyperloop/


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 19, 2017)

Virgin Hyperloop One made history this week, after setting a new speed record with its futuristic travel system.
The firm completed a third phase test at its DevLoop track in Nevada, where its Hyperloop pod was able to reach dizzying speeds of 240mph (387 km/hour).
While this is short of the firm's goal to achieve speeds of up to 670mph (1,000 kilometres/hour) by 2021, it's definitely a step in the right direction.











Virgin Hyperloop One's third phase test took place on December 15 at the DevLoop track in Nevada.
The firm set a test speed record of nearly 240mph (387 kilometres/hour), and tested a new airlock which helps transition test pods between atmospheric and vacuum conditions. 


In comparison, China's new Fuxing trains, which are the fastest in the world, can currently travel at speeds of 217mph (350 km/hour).






The tests were conducted in a tube depressurized down to the equivalent air pressure experienced at 200,000 feet above sea level.
A Virgin Hyperloop One pod quickly lifted above the track using magnetic levitation and glided at airline speeds due to ultra-low aerodynamic drag.


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## notb (Dec 19, 2017)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> > The firm set a test speed record of nearly 240mph (387 kilometres/hour), and tested a new airlock which helps transition test pods between atmospheric and vacuum conditions.
> > In comparison, China's new Fuxing trains, which are the fastest in the world, can currently travel at speeds of 217mph (350 km/hour).
> 
> 
> ...


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