# New headphones for Gaming



## gren_patterson (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi,

I did read some threads but didn't find yet an answer for my questions 

I play lots of fps games (semi-competitive) 
Have a g4me zero (150Ohm) with onboard sound (formula viii)

Now I'm thinking to 'invest' in a good sound setup. 
Thinking of the dt880 or 990. 
Would they be an upgrade for the g4me zero? 

Is it better to upgrade to a dac or sound card (zx or zxr)?

Thanx for your help!!


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## GamerGuy (Jul 28, 2016)

Firstly, are you satisfied with the SQ of your G4ME Zero? Does it meet your requirement/pre-requisites for gaming like good soundstage and positional accuracy? Is your onboard sound loud enough and good enough for your needs? I've heard that certain Z170 mobo with Creative onboard sound isn't that good.....not sure if the Formula VIII is one of 'em. IF you happy with with your present setup, leave it be and perhaps save up for an even better pair of can.

 NOT dissing the DT880/990, in fact I have the DT990 Premium as well as a DT770 Pro, but the DT990 (and DT880) have sparkly treble, some may not like it.....I do! Nice bass thump that isn't boomy at all, merphaps mildly recessed mids and great treble energy, what's not to like?


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## gren_patterson (Jul 28, 2016)

The formula has a Realtek onboard. 

I never did a test with another headphone or soundcard/dac. 
So I cannot compare...


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## GamerGuy (Jul 28, 2016)

Well, do you have a shop where you can go try out some cans? I can tell you that since I'd ventured into higher end cans and IEM's, cans/IEM's that used to sound good to me then sounds like crap now. I used to love my Shure SE215 which sounded great then, now I've tried better (and more expensive ones) like the Fitear Parterre/Sennheiser IE800/Campfire Audio Jupiter, the SE215 doesn't sound good any more. Treble sounded veiled, mids is muddy, bass lack definition though it is quite present. 

I said this to forewarn you that it's a slippery slope you're on right now, smart thing to do is to just hand on to what you have for now. Don't get a external DAC just 'because'.....rather, get one only IF you issue with EMI that prevent proper functioning of card (that is, you get statice/noise/interference that is caused by your rig itself) or if onboard doesn't drive your can to your preferred loudness. I doubt that the average guy can hear the difference between onboard and a typical/cheap external DAC. As long as onboard gets loud enough (with no interference) then it's all good dude.

As long as the G4ME ZERO is good enough for positional gaming that you play, let it be. Only reason to get a DT990/880 is IF you wanna improve on movie and music enjoyment. The DT990 (and DT880 I believe) has a very fun sounding signature sound (good bass and sparkly treble) and because the DT990 is open back (DT880 is semi-open) they should sound airier than your closed back G4ME Zero.


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## SnakeDoctor (Jul 28, 2016)

Upgrade the sound card/Dac first or the onboard is never going to drive any headphone to the full potensial


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## gren_patterson (Jul 28, 2016)

SnakeDoctor said:


> Upgrade the sound card/Dac first or the onboard is never going to drive any headphone to the full potensial



What soundcard or dac would you recommend?
Zx? 
Shiit stack??


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## SnakeDoctor (Jul 28, 2016)

gren_patterson said:


> What soundcard or dac would you recommend?
> Zx?
> Shiit stack??



I can't give too much advice on which soundcard would be the best for you as still on onboard myself , but with the high end headphones you using i would get something decent with at a least 150ohms DAC 
Something like the _(Asus Strix Soar 7.1 PCI-E Sound Card ) _would be the lowest i'll go

http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/a...-14046.html?osCsid=8ncqm8sv7ggbu4h3ns82i52ne7   ( sorry Za Pricing)
http://www.landmarkpc.co.za/store/a...-fidelity-virtual-pcie-sound-card-p-2580.html


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## gren_patterson (Jul 28, 2016)

GamerGuy said:


> Well, do you have a shop where you can go try out some cans? I can tell you that since I'd ventured into higher end cans and IEM's, cans/IEM's that used to sound good to me then sounds like crap now. I used to love my Shure SE215 which sounded great then, now I've tried better (and more expensive ones) like the Fitear Parterre/Sennheiser IE800/Campfire Audio Jupiter, the SE215 doesn't sound good any more. Treble sounded veiled, mids is muddy, bass lack definition though it is quite present.
> 
> I said this to forewarn you that it's a slippery slope you're on right now, smart thing to do is to just hand on to what you have for now. Don't get a external DAC just 'because'.....rather, get one only IF you issue with EMI that prevent proper functioning of card (that is, you get statice/noise/interference that is caused by your rig itself) or if onboard doesn't drive your can to your preferred loudness. I doubt that the average guy can hear the difference between onboard and a typical/cheap external DAC. As long as onboard gets loud enough (with no interference) then it's all good dude.
> 
> As long as the G4ME ZERO is good enough for positional gaming that you play, let it be. Only reason to get a DT990/880 is IF you wanna improve on movie and music enjoyment. The DT990 (and DT880 I believe) has a very fun sounding signature sound (good bass and sparkly treble) and because the DT990 is open back (DT880 is semi-open) they should sound airier than your closed back G4ME Zero.



I noticed that I putt off one side when I game for several hours. 
So an open back could be better??
Gives it a better game-experience?

At the moment my onboard is just enough to drive the zero. I game at 75% loudness. 
The 880/990 is 250Ohm...


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## WhiteNoise (Jul 28, 2016)

I prefer open back for the larger sound-stage. A schitt stack would be great too. I without a doubt would get a decent dac and amp. You won't regret it. I wouldn't bother with a good sound card and just digital out to DAC via your mobo or USB out to DAC, then a decent amp to run off the DAC.


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## GamerGuy (Jul 29, 2016)

From my experience, the biggest difference I could hear without effort is from going from one headphone to another, with DAC's, it's a more subtle change. Mind you, I'm NOT against the idea of getting new DAC's and such, but the benefits from going from rather 'meh' can to a better one (like the DT880/DT990) is more noticeable when compared to going from onboard (as long as it's decent enough) to external DAC's (as long as onboard supports the audio formats you use and gets loud enough, for me, all my DAC combos and stack have to support DSD format since I have more than 4TB of DSD 64/128 goodness). Seriously, I have more than a dozen cans, going from my Oppo HA-1 to my Gustard H10/X12 stack, I do hear subtle differences between them, but going from my ATH-AD700X to my DT990 600 Ohms was literally night and day difference.

IMO, get the DT990/DT880 first, but only if you know you like the sound signature, and if onboard doesn't get loud enough (shouldn't be a problem even if you get a 250 ohm version), then look for an external amp (or DAC combo/stack). Of course, my point is moot IF OP has budget for BOTH headphones and DAC upgrades simultaneously. If so, then hell yeah, go for broke!

Oh yeah, don't simply look at impedence (Ohms) and say this or that is harder to drive, you must also note the sensitivity, the higher the number, the easier it is to drive. Look at the HE-6 for example, it's rated at only 50 Ohms, yet is acknowledged as one of the hardest to drive ortho cans around, this is due to its efficiency (not the same as sensitivity, but should give you an idea) rated at a measly 83.5dB which is why it requires so much raw power to drive it. I've even read of some using speaker taps (with adapters) to drive their HE-6. My Beyerdynamic DT770 250 Ohms is rated at 96dB, yet I'd bet all I have that it's easier to drive compared to the HE-6.

Edit - Please wait for some audio savvy guys to reply, I'll admit that I'm rather new at this as well....

Oh yeah, with regard to comfort for both open or closed back cans, both can be quite comfortable (difference could be clamping force) but, like you, I'd remove my closed back cans after an hour or so, this is due to my ears getting quite warm and/or sweat. I find I don't sweat much with open back cans but YMMV. As for clamping force, again this varies from person to person, I don't mind a higher clamping force, my DT770 Pro definitely has a greater clamping force compared to the DT990 Premium, but I don't mind....maybe because I'm one tough hombre.


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## Niteblooded (Jul 29, 2016)

Looks like you already got some good advice but as another DT990 250Ω user I thought I would chime in so you have more input to help with your decision.   They are great headphones and you would be hard pressed to find better in the price range, especially since they go on sale off and on.   As GamerGuy said, they are bright headphones so the highs are pronounced which give them a fun sound signature but its also a downside as songs with cymbals and such can get a bit fatiguing.   Mids are the main weakness as they are recessed.   Closed headphones are king if you are a basshead and put bass above everything else.   The DT990s do pretty good on bass, it's just not detailed, nor are they strong with sub-bass.   Though at this point I think you pretty much have to go with closed headphones to get good sub-bass.

On-board drives them pretty well but the more I used them the more I could tell it felt like they were being held back.   At first they sounded great and I was in bliss but then after the honeymoon phase wore off I could tell they needed more juice.   I saved up a few years and finally bought a really nice amp/dac and wow the difference was real.   Point being, on-board can drive them good but at some point down the road you may be tempted to buy an external amp/dac.   The Schiit Mod/Magni is probably the cheapest combos you can get that is also good quality but I don't think you need to go there yet.   Get the headphones, enjoy them, research external amps and dacs and figure out how much you are willing to spend and save up for that amount.   Beyerdynamics love tube amps.   Nice thing is, a lot of headphones do so even if you buy another nice set of headphones down the road they will pair up nicely too.  As GamerGuy said, this hobby is a slippery slope.

As far as gaming goes, I just recently started using them for gaming and attached a Mod Mic v4 on them.   So far they're great.   I know where the enemy is, not just what direction they are but how far/close they are ...and I mean within a few meters.   Granted I'm currently playing Overwatch and the game really emphasizes sound ques so perhaps any headphone would give the same result but either way they do great and they are connected to on-board sound right now.   I have no problems recommending them but if you play in a noisy environment then keep in mind open headphones may not be the best idea since you will be able to hear everything around you and others can hear your game as well.   I like open headphones for that reason as closed cans make me feel I have no situational awareness but this can be a big deal for some, especially if they're in a noisy dorm or afraid they'll keep a family member up that's sleeping in the same room.


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## Vayra86 (Jul 29, 2016)

gren_patterson said:


> I noticed that I putt off one side when I game for several hours.
> So an open back could be better??
> Gives it a better game-experience?
> 
> ...



If you want something indestructible with very good SQ (not audiophile, but very neutral  nonetheless, more than good enough for the untrained ears) get this, you can tilt back the individual sides as well. It's actually a DJ headphone, but I love it for everything. It's also extremely lightweight:"

http://nl-nl.sennheiser.com/hd25

It also doesn't cost an arm and a leg like the real audiophile headphones. Mine's going to have its 11th birthday soon  And that is after a good six years of active use in DJ booths around the continent ^^


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## gren_patterson (Jul 30, 2016)

Niteblooded said:


> Looks like you already got some good advice but as another DT990 250Ω user I thought I would chime in so you have more input to help with your decision.   They are great headphones and you would be hard pressed to find better in the price range, especially since they go on sale off and on.   As GamerGuy said, they are bright headphones so the highs are pronounced which give them a fun sound signature but its also a downside as songs with cymbals and such can get a bit fatiguing.   Mids are the main weakness as they are recessed.   Closed headphones are king if you are a basshead and put bass above everything else.   The DT990s do pretty good on bass, it's just not detailed, nor are they strong with sub-bass.   Though at this point I think you pretty much have to go with closed headphones to get good sub-bass.
> 
> On-board drives them pretty well but the more I used them the more I could tell it felt like they were being held back.   At first they sounded great and I was in bliss but then after the honeymoon phase wore off I could tell they needed more juice.   I saved up a few years and finally bought a really nice amp/dac and wow the difference was real.   Point being, on-board can drive them good but at some point down the road you may be tempted to buy an external amp/dac.   The Schiit Mod/Magni is probably the cheapest combos you can get that is also good quality but I don't think you need to go there yet.   Get the headphones, enjoy them, research external amps and dacs and figure out how much you are willing to spend and save up for that amount.   Beyerdynamics love tube amps.   Nice thing is, a lot of headphones do so even if you buy another nice set of headphones down the road they will pair up nicely too.  As GamerGuy said, this hobby is a slippery slope.
> 
> As far as gaming goes, I just recently started using them for gaming and attached a Mod Mic v4 on them.   So far they're great.   I know where the enemy is, not just what direction they are but how far/close they are ...and I mean within a few meters.   Granted I'm currently playing Overwatch and the game really emphasizes sound ques so perhaps any headphone would give the same result but either way they do great and they are connected to on-board sound right now.   I have no problems recommending them but if you play in a noisy environment then keep in mind open headphones may not be the best idea since you will be able to hear everything around you and others can hear your game as well.   I like open headphones for that reason as closed cans make me feel I have no situational awareness but this can be a big deal for some, especially if they're in a noisy dorm or afraid they'll keep a family member up that's sleeping in the same room.



Thx for your clear reply!

Which amp/dac dou you have?


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## R-T-B (Jul 30, 2016)

I have the Schiit stack and am very happy with it.


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## gren_patterson (Jul 30, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I have the Schiit stack and am very happy with it.



Do you hear the 'enemy' coming in fps?


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## R-T-B (Jul 30, 2016)

gren_patterson said:


> Do you hear the 'enemy' coming in fps?



I'm not much of an FPS gamer (strategy / RPG gamer more here) but I'm sure I would.


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## Caring1 (Jul 31, 2016)

Do Frogs even have ears?


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## GamerGuy (Jul 31, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> Do Frogs even have ears?


Yeah, I'm wondering 'bout that myself....


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## SnakeDoctor (Jul 31, 2016)

Vayra86 said:


> If you want something indestructible with very good SQ (not audiophile, but very neutral  nonetheless, more than good enough for the untrained ears) get this, you can tilt back the individual sides as well. It's actually a DJ headphone, but I love it for everything. It's also extremely lightweight:"
> 
> http://nl-nl.sennheiser.com/hd25
> 
> It also doesn't cost an arm and a leg like the real audiophile headphones. Mine's going to have its 11th birthday soon  And that is after a good six years of active use in DJ booths around the continent ^^



He has got these headphone to would be a downgrade i rate 

http://en-us.sennheiser.com/pc-gaming-headset-game-zero


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## Dethroy (Jul 31, 2016)

Evans Young said:


> The new asus strix gaming headphones are great for gaming. 7.1 channel with realistic sound.


Sorry, but gaming headsets - just like most gaming peripherals - simply suck, especially multi-channel headsets!


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## Vayra86 (Aug 1, 2016)

SnakeDoctor said:


> He has got these headphone to would be a downgrade i rate
> 
> http://en-us.sennheiser.com/pc-gaming-headset-game-zero



It is also 312g and that is a lot to keep on your head. This is why I suggested an open and very lightweight version, which also has the option of removing a can if needed by tilting it back. Preferences  Sound will be very different from the game zero though - not necessarily quality wise, but in terms of accuracy in surround.


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## GamerGuy (Aug 1, 2016)

Dethroy said:


> Sorry, but gaming headsets - just like most gaming peripherals - simply suck, especially multi-channel headsets!


Ain't that the truth, brudda! 

Once, just for the hell of it, I'd gotten a Razer Black Shark 'gaming' headset to try out because one member in another forum was praising its build quality and awesome gaming experience. Damn, it was a total waste! Treble was recessed, mids was muddied AND recessed to hell due to the overwhelming bass......can't believe that people actually buy this POS for a 'good' gaming experience. Of course, the guy who was so enamored by it was butt hurt when I'd conveyed my negative experience with it, but seriously, an Audio Technica ATH-AD500X (or HD558, or if you want good bass as well, a DT990)+ mod mic would be a much better experience. Sure, bass on the ATH-AD500X or HD558 would be lacking for many, but the soundstage and airiness of the can would be so much more accurate for positional gaming. The AD500X has a wider soundstage compared to the HD558, but the latter would still be so much better than most 'gaming' headset.

IF you want a multi-channel gaming experience, forget 5.1/7.1 gaming headsets, get a 5.1/7.1 surround gaming system, it'd be so much better! For my main gaming system, I use a Creative Zx + Logitech Z-5500 5.1 speaker system, really can't beat a physical speaker system for multi-channel gaming, and movies! First time I'd played Dead Space with my 5.1 system, the metal clanking emanating from one of my rear speakers actually made me jump.....especially so when I was playing it at night. Dead Space still has one of the best sound design and implementation, really added to the creepy experience first time playing that game.


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## Dethroy (Aug 1, 2016)

I'd recommend reading Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide.


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## SnakeDoctor (Aug 1, 2016)

Vayra86 said:


> It is also 312g and that is a lot to keep on your head. This is why I suggested an open and very lightweight version, which also has the option of removing a can if needed by tilting it back. Preferences  Sound will be very different from the game zero though - not necessarily quality wise, but in terms of accuracy in surround.



312g is nothing it all depends on the comfort design of the headphone eg ,the steel series v2 I have are over 300g and are so comfortable can wear them for hours without any issue all in the Design / headband
Like the logitech g430 are so uncomfortable they hurt after 30mins
The Game Zero have a better Frequency response=15 Hz - 28,000 Hz vs  16 - 22000 Hz
The Game Zero "look" more comfortable to me.
The Hd 25 should be louder though .
There is no point in surround sound or stereo if take one headphone off the ear then most aswell get mono sound  that just mean the headphone are uncomfortable.
The HD25 are dynamic, closed headphones not open back.
The HD25 - would use more power so sound card would be help
Gaming headphone are meant to pick up foot steps ect thus the different Frequency response -tuned to gaming sounds

Still see it as a downgrade

Open back Sennheiser - in same price range as the GameZero
http://en-de.sennheiser.com/audio-headphones-high-end-hd-558
http://en-de.sennheiser.com/high-end-headphones-audio-stereo-hifi-hd-598

The Op's choice of DT880 + DT990 would be a good upgrade for SQ


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## gren_patterson (Aug 7, 2016)

There is only one thing that hold me back to buy the 990. They are open, and I game in the livingroom.
Is the 770 also great for Gaming?


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