# Do You Prefer Flat or "Colored" Sound?



## Operandi (Aug 2, 2022)

Klipsch is known for having their own particular sound so this speaker makes for a good candidate. Pretty simple test but rarely do you get to hear just what the shape of speaker or headphone's response is doing irrespective of all the other quality of the speaker / headphone. They really did a amazingly good job with this video, considering you hearing the speaker and the room, and ultimately whatever speakers or headphones you have (and YouTube is def compressing out a crap load of quality) but they do sound pretty drastically different.  Aside from the response tuning the quality of crossover is massively upgraded which I'm sure makes a difference but good luck hearing it after YT compresses the fuck out of it.










Anyway... I listened though my own main speaker setup full range Singularites (DIY design speaker), and Pioneer A9 integrated with its built in USB DAC.  Headphones would probably make for better test so maybe I'll try again even though my headphones aren't that great.  

Initially I liked the stock speaker more with first few tracks, sounded way more engaging and exciting but as different tracks came in the "fixed" crossover sounded way more _correct _for lack of a better word. The fixed response sounded particularly more natural with vocals and as the testing went on I generally preferred the GR Research crossover on all the tracks. I don't feel like I heard any detail or clarity differences from the better quality crossover components in the GR version but I think YT compression would make that pretty unlikely.


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## dirtyferret (Aug 2, 2022)

Operandi said:


> Klipsch is known for having their own particular sound so this speaker makes for a good candidate


They are notorious for their use of "horn" tweeters and their sound even changes among their series.  Back when I owned their synergy 5.1 set up I thought they sounded great.  Switched to the reference series and returned the next day.


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## AsRock (Aug 2, 2022)

I like all kinds of speakers, to lock it down to a single pair would be pretty impossible. although i be pretty dam happy with some vintage infinity Kappa 8's ha.

By some HiFi gear get your self to a thift store or two and start picking up cd's as your right youtube kills music.

It depends on the music too A LOT and lets not forget the mood the brains in haha.

But after many like 30+ years yamaha ( amp wise ) has always been my main one.


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## Frick (Aug 2, 2022)

Try Tidal for music. Definitely sounds better than Spotify, and better than YT for sure.

As for sound ... I'm quite flexible and can even enjoy cheapo headphones/speakers, depending on many things. Too good equipment can actually make some recordings sound worse (if the recordings aren't very good).


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## Operandi (Aug 2, 2022)

dirtyferret said:


> They are notorious for their use of "horn" tweeters and their sound even changes among their series. Back when I owned their synergy 5.1 set up I thought they sounded great. Switched to the reference series and returned the next day.



Drivers have their own sound for sure and horns are Klipsch's thing but frequency response is only one aspect of how a speaker or headphone will sound.  Two speakers with identical responses can sound totally different for a variety of reasons, driver type being just one of them.  If you look at reviews and what GR Research did to improve the speaker you see the stock Klipsch has some pretty obvious problems going on outside of how accurate it is.  There is a MK II of this speaker that just came out fixes a lot of whats wrong with the speaker from a design perspective. 

The whole point of this experiment is to isolate the crossover implementation and design from the rest of the speaker, and clear up some of misconceptions that flat is boring and lively engaging speakers have lifted frequency responses. 

For what its worth having seen the stock freq response before watching this video I thought I'd hate how the stock version sounds and while I prefer the GR version but honestly I thought stock sounded fine.  Again all within the limitations of a recording (albeit a really good one) of speaker in a room run through YT compression.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 2, 2022)

As a DJ and amateur producer, flat EQ is the only way I can listen to music. I make an exception for the car, because noise needs compensation and then I just want loud  Tracks that are mastered well, don't need anything.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 2, 2022)

ELO


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## erocker (Aug 2, 2022)

I always prefer flat but will adjust my eq depending on what I'm using for output to try to achieve that flat "curve". Sometimes I prefer more/less bass with some things I listen to.


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## Turmeric (Aug 2, 2022)

the GR Research fix just solves some issues and adds sound quality. so just saying its more "flat" is not telling the whole story.
you still benefit from adding eq, the flat ting we are talking about here is mic measurement at one meter. you must do your own adjustment with eq or dsp to get the sound you like, and account for your hearing and room you are in.


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## Luke357 (Aug 2, 2022)

I like flat sound but a small (5 Db or less) bass boost sounds good too and I enjoy more detailed highs but not so much to where it becomes fatiguing. An excellent example of this would be the TinHifi T2 Plus. IEM.


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## Bones (Aug 2, 2022)

erocker said:


> I always prefer flat but will adjust my eq depending on what I'm using for output to try to achieve that flat "curve". Sometimes I prefer more/less bass with some things I listen to.


I must say, depending on the recording you are listening to will determine how to set the EQ for the best sound experience for YOU, not everyone will agree to what's best or the reasons why/why not.

Just listen to two different songs/recordings from two different groups/artists and you'll find yourself adjusting the EQ for what sounds best with each one. Some will have better bass for example with others having strong highs. There are times I'll "Tune" the EQ settings I use for when things like highs are just too high (Painful/tinny sounding) and other times when bass is too strong (Muddy sounding) to clear things up.

However I know the audio equipment used makes a BIG difference in sound quality along with the ear of the listener - It's all subjective to opinion and the only one that really counts is that of the listener.


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## rafik2019 (Aug 2, 2022)

Vintage audio is the best for my car. Eq always flat is the way to go. 90's audio systems are awesome.


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## freeagent (Aug 2, 2022)

I haven't heard anything modern lately, but some of the best sounding soundtracks of my life were played on British HiFi from the 90s. 

Right now my setup consists of NAD, MISSION, and Monitor Audio.. but its just not the same.

I need me a nice big silver faced Rotel with some big Angstrom towers and some fine lamp cord cables


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## claes (Aug 2, 2022)

I just listen to Steve Albini recordings and adjust until it sounds right and then complain about everything else being engineered poorly


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## robot zombie (Aug 3, 2022)

What is flat? I don't know of a reasonable way to get going with a flat room and *truly* flat speakers. I mean, I've never been into an anechoic chamber, but it doesn't seem like having no reflections is actually all that enjoyable. But reflections are coloration, too... right? Does anybody really like a totally flat sound? I'm not sure, because I don't see how anybody is getting a flat sound. The general wisdom with room treatment is that you actually don't want a totally flat room. You place treatments strategically and leave some ambient reflections, maybe break out some diffusers to propagate rather than outright absorb.

I think with the amounts and types of coloration inherent to speakers, headphones, and the environments they are put to work in, taste is kind of the last bastion of truth. Some of it isn't even taste, but rather minutiae. Well... concha aren't minute in impact - they are uniquely shaped for each ear. Our ears all basically have a different frequency response curve. And then, our consciousness has this thing where it likes to add its own things to existing things... sensibilities, in a word. Over repeated exposure, we grow into our perception of things and make it our own experience, with there being certain input we look to right in the moments those experiences course through. I don't think it's avoidable.

With stuff like this in mind, I've just never fully grasped this conversation in audio. It seems like splitting hairs when the experience of sound is inherently colored at many different points. I also don't get the whole deal about replicating things as intended. The more you learn about how music is made, the more you realize that this is not a goal many people can ever achieve. And for all you know, the artist played the shit once in their car and called it "good." I'd rather just trust my own ears on what sounds good to me... same process I use for selecting artists in the first place.

But honestly, to me... pretty much any set of transducers you could buy right now are colored. I have tried a lot of high end headphones, and as far as I can tell, you are paying for specific characteristics of the sound... either less coloration where most other headphones have it as a given, or coloration that makes for an especially pleasing sound. They aren't necessarily less colored. TBH I don't think we even have a good picture of what 'flat' is when it comes to headphones. I assume it is the same with speakers, though more work and study has been done on those. Superficially, it looks the same in that everyone is steeped in their own preferences and rationales for why those things make for a better experience. I try to look past the terminology, I think people get majorly caught in the reeds when it comes to what I'll call 'personal audio concepts' for lack of a proper term. The subject of coloration, and the discussions around them are a perfect example of one, though. Obviously accuracy is a great thing (we have all benefitted from HUGE advancements in the accuracy of source and source gear, for instance,) but again... it always comes back around to the fact that people will not only hear every speaker at least a little differently on a sensory level, but process them differently in their brains.

I guess there are forms of distortion and coloration nobody seems to like, but then if that's what it was all about we would not need to constantly hash this out. There's tube stuff, old analog formats, where some people enjoy that coloration. But I do still think it's a false comparison if you either have any pair of headphones on your head, or are listening to any quality of speakers in a normal room with a perfectly modern setup. In your preferences, you are tolerating or perhaps not even noticing that coloration, but it is really just as present as any of the artifacts you hear in analog formats. The room drastically affects the sound, just as the shape of your ears will change the perceived response of headphones on your head. It's not "coloration vs. no coloration", it's just different types that you will have in your experience and what you can/want to do about/with them.


To me, EQ is kind of a given. I got a beherenger DEQ 2496. Simple 24-bit 96000k fx rack with plenty of preset slots as well as nice PEQ and GEQ modules. I route it before the DAC, because I don't want the coloration from the crappy behringer RCA outs - definitely better to do that sort of processing in the digital phase. I have presets for different headphones and genres. The speakers get a bass boost at most - I like to kick the sub up for hip-hop and some electronic music. I kinda just don't expect everything to sound good on everything. Even... and maybe especially the kinds of setups used for mastering, previewing, and general studio monitoring, as well as the many audiophile makes that follow similar design principles in building their speakers. There is just no way every mix out there is going to sound good to me, on any setup. Maybe even less so if everything in it is evenly represented. That may even be why I can engage with it emotionally. I generally keep it subtle, though. I pretty much know where each pair of headphones lets me down in spots, and most of the time they don't respond well to big steps anyway.


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## bobbybluz (Aug 3, 2022)

Most of my audio gear is recording studio stuff from the 70's, 80's and 90's. If it was good enough to make the original recordings with it's good enough for playback. Every recording is different with multiple factors involved. We also all hear and perceive things differently. Unless you're working with a nearfield monitoring setup that's been EQ'd out flat with an RTA in a central on-axis listening position it's impossible to define actual "flat" when it comes to frequency response. Even then you're not going to be able to duplicate the experience of a live performance regardless of the equipment used.

Tonight I was out playing with Jazz musicians. Thursday night I'll be onstage with Blues musicians. The next three weekends I'm booked for outdoor festivals. Age and health issues have severely cut back my live endeavors. I have 55+ years in the music business as a performer, recording engineer, broadcast engineer, FOH and mastering. Sometimes I get paid great money for what I do, other times I do it for the fun and gig high. The reason I'm pointing this out is because I've learned over the decades there is no absolute when it comes to audio. Everything is limited by our own individual perceptions and tastes. Whatever sounds good to you as the listener is correct.


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## Mister300 (Aug 3, 2022)

Hope this helps I am a retired professional chemist with a specialty in analytical instrumentation and have a relative in the recording industry. I have knowledge of the consumer and pro side of audio. I have been noticing a lot of posts about speaker and equipment recommendations etc.

Also, some are wondering why their setup disappoints at high SPL or when a quality SVS sub is added. SVS subs are musically accurate, low distortion and have minimal enclosure resonances or added unwanted vibrational modes when properly placed. With some rock music, they can be ruthlessly revealing of bad recordings.

Do not get to caught up in the specs or being a "measurebator" audio is very subjective and personal. Must listen to speakers and base purchase on your personal taste, all are voiced differently so I do not recommend one brand of speaker over another, feelings can be hurt depending on how critique is taken. For example, I was at a high-end dealer (Early 1990) when they were showcasing a Wilson WAMM setup valued at 100K. The customer pulls out a personal recording of an oboe and a bassoon solo that he performed. After listening he says I am done with the Wilsons, why was he not satisfied? It wasn’t the 100K sticker shock, it was the fact that the system couldn’t resolve a A440 hertz note properly. To the untrained ear they sound identical but have a slight timbre difference that is noticeable to a professional Oboe/Bassoon performer. He also would dump a speaker if it couldn’t resolve a piano recording with the lid up or closed. FYI, he settled with the B&W Nautilus at 30K, I believe.



*Cheap amp equals poor sound at elevated SPL. More power equals more volume assumption. *Sound output is logarithmic not linear, double power not twice as loud.
For example I am a metal fan, the sound system for Iron Maiden is approx. 300 KW at 117 dB this SPL projects thousands of feet. If I do not add speakers or change drivers, doubling power to 600 KW it is only 3 dB louder which is not noticeably louder to most.
The quality of the watt is crucial, for example a discrete Darlington hand wired transistor amp can run over 10K whereas your MosFET receivers are sub $500 (99% of gear bought today). I have a Yamaha DSP receiver, 5 ch which is MoSFET. Infinity frontend, Paradigm center and Paradigm rears, SVS SB2000 Pro sub.


The power rating is irrelevant most sound systems play sound best when at under 5 watts continuous give or take. *Efficiency rating will tell you how loud a speaker plays at 1 m away with one watt in*. My Infinity speakers are rated at 98 dB/watt. To reproduce distortion free sound field at ref levels you need massive reserves of power for transients.
So my system at 1 meter out outputs the following SPL
1 watt is 98 dB SPL, OSHA states no more than 90 dB @ 8 hrs. at this threshold without hearing protection.
2 watts is 101 dB
4 watts 104 dB
8 watts 107 dB Need to spend ton of money to experience clean uncompressed music at this level or above.
16 watts 110 dB
32 watts 113 dB
64 watts 116 dB
128 watts 119 dB Permanent loss of hearing
Why is this important let say speaker brand X is rated at 80 dB/watt, what power is needed to match my setup?
1 watt 80 dB
2 watts 83 dB
4W 86
8W 89
16W 92
32W 95
64W 98
128W 101 dB
256W 104
512W 107 dB
1024W 110 to get this I need to invest in a Krell, Mark Levinson mono-block in excess of $5000. These high end amps are rated at 1 horsepower which is around 750 W at 8 ohms, 1500 W at 4 ohms continuous), No FET stages, discrete class A.
2048W 113 out
4096W 116 dB out

8192 W 119 dB out


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## Blaeza (Aug 3, 2022)

I've a Yamaha dspax757SE connected to some Kef Concerto 2's, Kef Cresta 30's and an SVS PB1000.  I know it's not the newest or most expensive system on the planet, but when I turn it up listening to drum and bass (my music of choice) and my kitchen door starts rattling, I'm in heaven.  As for colouration, I add about +2 on treble, +2 on mid and depending on if my upstairs neighbours are in or not, can be +3 to +5.
Yes, I love bass and feeling it through your very core is enough to give me the sweats and generally brighten my day a great deal.  A couple of songs of choice are Lost in this World by Netsky and System Check by DJ Brockie and Ed Solo.  The sweep at the start of System Check is just pure filth.  With a high end system, you'd want to make sure your subs are ready and so is your room, because EVERYTHING will rattle or shake! It may not be to your taste but I'd love to hear a recording of someone with all the bells and whistles giving it a go.  Anyway, I'm waffling now...


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## Operandi (Aug 10, 2022)

Turmeric said:


> the GR Research fix just solves some issues and adds sound quality. so just saying its more "flat" is not telling the whole story.
> you still benefit from adding eq, the flat ting we are talking about here is mic measurement at one meter. you must do your own adjustment with eq or dsp to get the sound you like, and account for your hearing and room you are in.


The GR crossover is doing a lot more than smoothing out the response but given that its being recorded with microphone from a static on axis position and YT is compressing the F out of it the vast majority of what you are hearing in the video is just the smooth frequency response.  If you had the speakers in room you'd be hearing a lot more for sure.  And of course you still EQ to taste or to correct room issues if thats a thing you do.


robot zombie said:


> What is flat? I don't know of a reasonable way to get going with a flat room and *truly* flat speakers. I mean, I've never been into an anechoic chamber, but it doesn't seem like having no reflections is actually all that enjoyable. But reflections are coloration, too... right? Does anybody really like a totally flat sound? I'm not sure, because I don't see how anybody is getting a flat sound. The general wisdom with room treatment is that you actually don't want a totally flat room. You place treatments strategically and leave some ambient reflections, maybe break out some diffusers to propagate rather than outright absorb.
> 
> I think with the amounts and types of coloration inherent to speakers, headphones, and the environments they are put to work in, taste is kind of the last bastion of truth. Some of it isn't even taste, but rather minutiae. Well... concha aren't minute in impact - they are uniquely shaped for each ear. Our ears all basically have a different frequency response curve. And then, our consciousness has this thing where it likes to add its own things to existing things... sensibilities, in a word. Over repeated exposure, we grow into our perception of things and make it our own experience, with there being certain input we look to right in the moments those experiences course through. I don't think it's avoidable.
> 
> ...


Well in this context of the video the GR version is flat and the stock Klipsch is not.  Irrespective of room issues and what you may prefer tonality wise the speaker is just coloring the sound more.  Its also worth noting you can only correct certain things with an EQ depending on what you are correcting and  the crossover and dispersion pattern of the drivers in the speaker.  You can certainly use an EQ to adjust to taste and correct for room issues but ideally crossover point issues, or transducer issues should be corrected at the crossover.

Analog formats vs. digital and tubes is a whole other subject entirely.


Mister300 said:


> Do not get to caught up in the specs or being a "measurebator" audio is very subjective and personal. Must listen to speakers and base purchase on your personal taste, all are voiced differently so I do not recommend one brand of speaker over another, feelings can be hurt depending on how critique is taken. For example, I was at a high-end dealer (Early 1990) when they were showcasing a Wilson WAMM setup valued at 100K. The customer pulls out a personal recording of an oboe and a bassoon solo that he performed. After listening he says I am done with the Wilsons, why was he not satisfied? It wasn’t the 100K sticker shock, it was the fact that the system couldn’t resolve a A440 hertz note properly. To the untrained ear they sound identical but have a slight timbre difference that is noticeable to a professional Oboe/Bassoon performer. He also would dump a speaker if it couldn’t resolve a piano recording with the lid up or closed. FYI, he settled with the B&W Nautilus at 30K, I believe.


Thats cool thing about audio and speakers specifically.  Even if you could do everything else perfectly up to the point of the speakers and headphones you'll never have a perfect speaker or headphone, its not possible.  Money not withstanding every design is a compromise even when you get the level of those Wilson and B&Ws every design attribute is a compromise somewhere else. 

Just as random example a single full range 8" driver like whats in the Singularities I built has a very unique set a of advantages that can not be replicated with multi driver systems.  Really good crossover design and drivers will get you closer to mitigating the disadvantages but never all the way there to what a single full range driver can do.  Of course asking a single driver to do everything no matter how good it is has a ton of disadvantages and most would say way more negatives than positives which is why they are rare but thats kinda what makes it interesting.


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