# Tackling Delhi's serious air quality problem with... jet engines?



## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, that's right, jet engines. The idea is to blast the smog-filled air at a 900mph exhaust speed straight up, above the temperature inversion that's keeping the pollution in.

I can see quite a few issues with this idea which make it a non-starter in my book:

- Effectiveness. Will the upward column of high speed air really reach that high in any meaningful way? Dissipation of a naked column of air is quite rapid. If it really is effective, won't it simply spread the pollution problem all around the world and upset other countries?
- Safety. It could blow up, catch fire, suck people in, the column of air will be a hazard too. I'm sure there are more issues too
- Noise. They'll have to be in the middle of nowhere or the noise will drive everyone nuts
- Reliability. Just how long are those old engines gonna run without maintenance? We're talking a 24/7 operation here I believe
- We're burning lots and lots of fossil fuels to help with the problem of... burning lots and lots of fossil fuels. Anything wrong with this picture?

I'd have thought a much better strategy would be to tackle the sources of the pollution in the first place, like is done in other countries.









> The exhaust will create powerful updrafts that will, to put it simply, blast the emissions from the plant to higher altitudes, above a meteorological phenomenon called temperature inversion, where a layer of cold air is held in place by a warmer "lid" trapping smog.
> 
> The jet exhaust will act as a "virtual chimney", drawing in and transporting the smog, which makes Delhi's air some of the most toxic in the world. A single jet engine can deal with emissions from a 1,000 megawatt power plant.
> 
> So can jet engines help clean up Delhi's foul air? A team of researchers from the US, India and Singapore believes so.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-38285567


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## btarunr (Dec 13, 2016)

Last month, I landed in Delhi to a visibility of <10 meters. That's right. Sitting on the window seat of a B737-800, I couldn't even see the wingtip:






The pilot managed to bring the plane down smoothly because Delhi airport invested in cutting-edge CAT IIIb instrument landing system (ILS). But he was clueless on getting the plane to the terminal, because he couldn't even see the guiding lights on the taxiway. We waited 15 minutes on 4 km long runway till a ground vehicle could guide the plane to the terminal:






Good luck trying to clear that with jet-engines.


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

btarunr said:


> Last month, I landed in Delhi to a visibility of <10 meters. That's right. Sitting on the window seat of a B737-800, I couldn't even see the wingtip:


Jeez, that's really shocking.  Could you actually breath without coughing? I don't react too well to pollution (eg diesel fumes, especially from an older engine) so I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up in hospital if exposed to it.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

I think the idea stinks. They will simply dump the pollutants elsewhere. Ive got plenty to say on this subject but i need to calm down a bit first.


From Boeing

When modern jet engines are operated at rated thrust levels, the exhaust wake can exceed 375 mi/h (325 kn or 603 km/h) immediately aft of the engine exhaust nozzle. This exhaust flow field extends aft in a rapidly expanding cone, with portions of the flow field contacting and extending aft along the pavement surface (fig. 1). Exhaust velocity components are attenuated with increasing distance from the engine exhaust nozzle. However, an airflow of 300 mi/h (260 kn or 483 km/h) can still be present at the empennage, and significant people and equipment hazards will persist hundreds of feet beyond this area. At full power, the exhaust wake speed can typically be 150 mi/h (130 kn or 240 km/h) at 200 ft (61 m) beyond the airplane and 50 to 100 mi/h (43 to 88 kn or 80 to 161 km/h) well beyond this point.






www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_06/textonly/s02txt.html


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## R0H1T (Dec 13, 2016)

So, apart from the points already mentioned in the OP, what happens to the thrust, that such massive engines will generate especially when they're directed towards the earth?


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## btarunr (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> Jeez, that's really shocking.  Could you actually breath without coughing? I don't react too well to pollution (eg diesel fumes, especially from an older engine) so I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up in hospital if exposed to it.



On that same day (2 hours before landing in DEL), this was the airport of Hyderabad:






Every time I come back to Hyderabad from Delhi, it's like stepping into TSMC's clean room.


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## R0H1T (Dec 13, 2016)

btarunr said:


> On that same day (2 hours before landing in DEL), this was the airport of Hyderabad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's like you totally forgot about the temps over there 

I know most of the blame goes to the government, centre & state, as well as the locals but low temps are just as much responsible for the *persistent* smog over there. I do believe though that major industries in & around Delhi, especially Noida & other satellite towns, should be shifted at least 100kms away from the current (Delhi) periphery also odd/even should be in place for 6 months.


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## btarunr (Dec 13, 2016)

R0H1T said:


> It's like you totally forgot about the temps over there
> 
> I know most of the blame goes to the government, centre & state, as well as the locals but low temps are just as much responsible for the *persistent* smog over there. I do believe though that major industries in & around Delhi, especially Noida & other satellite towns, should be shifted at least 100kms away from the current (Delhi) periphery also odd/even should be in place for 6 months.



November temperatures weren't that low. Morning temperatures were close to 18-20C.


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## R0H1T (Dec 13, 2016)

btarunr said:


> November temperatures weren't that low. Morning temperatures were close to 18-20C.


Then minimum temps were likely 10~15 degrees, just around dawn, which is fairly chilly & hence smog inducing. Also what about the point wrt polluting industries in & around Delhi?


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

btarunr said:


> Every time I come back to Hyderabad from Delhi, it's like stepping into TSMC's clean room.


Yeah, I guess I could breath there, lol.


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## thebluebumblebee (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> The idea is to blast the smog-filled air at a 900mph exhaust speed straight up


What would happen to the sonic boom?


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

thebluebumblebee said:


> What would happen to the sonic boom?


hmmm yeah, at ground level, mach 1 is about 760mph, while that exhaust is going at 900mph, well above it. So, can a jet engine from a non-supersonic aircraft actually produce supersonic thrust? I tend to think not since this requires specialized engineering to get past the sound barrier, hence the exhaust would likely top out at around 700mph. If anyone knows better, let me know.

Mind you, there's so much fail with this whole idea, that I doubt they really care about a major minor detail like this.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

You wouldnt run it at full throttle. Typically this only happens when aborting a landing and requires a full inspection afterwards.


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> You wouldnt run it at full throttle. Typically this only happens when aborting a landing and requires a full inspection afterwards.


Yeah true. So now there's even less thrust and hence a weaker, slower column of air, making this idea even less viable. The fail is getting bigger, innit?


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

what concerns me is the effect of doing it, you are merely shifting the problem. These particulates will fall to the ground some where........look out Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia and the East coast of Africa. 

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=80.78,-1.01,417


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

Yes, quite.

btw, you've got 6116 messages.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

From an engineering point of view i think it is a viable idea though morally its shit, its like dealing with the symptoms and ignoring a cure.


_

_


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

Agreed about morally, but I'm not convinced about the engineering side of it either. After all the exhaust gas fans out widely as shown in your post 4, losing a whole lot of speed and power, so how high it could force the pollution is questionable.

Another thing, can you imagine a couple of jets mounted on a platform pointing straight down? These things are strong enough to propel an aeroplane weighing hundreds of tons to hundreds of miles an hour, so the force on that platform and the mountings is going to be enormous, hence it really wouldn't take much for something to give and cause a catastrophe. I wouldn't stand anywhere near it!


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## natr0n (Dec 13, 2016)

Something something ...Giant air filters.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> Agreed about morally, but I'm not convinced about the engineering side of it either. After all the exhaust gas fans out widely as shown in your post 4, losing a whole lot of speed and power, so how high it could force the pollution is questionable.
> 
> Another thing, can you imagine a couple of jets mounted on a platform pointing straight down? These things are strong enough to propel an aeroplane weighing hundreds of tons to hundreds of miles an hour, so the force on that platform and the mountings is going to be enormous, hence it really wouldn't take much for something to give and cause a catastrophe. I wouldn't stand anywhere near it!





They are trying to punch a hole in the layer of inversion which would allow the smog to escape, from what i have read they arent trying to suck and blow out the pollution.

Jet engines have a few applications. there are 4 in my local power station running on liquified natural gas producing electricity. They are plentiful and cheap second hand. All the thrust developed would be directed towards the ground as they would be sucking from below and blasting up above.

if they can run a Saturn V on the ground a jet engine is no problem, not on a flatbed trailer like in the pic though


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## rtwjunkie (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> Another thing, can you imagine a couple of jets mounted on a platform pointing straight down? These things are strong enough to propel an aeroplane weighing hundreds of tons to hundreds of miles an hour, so the force on that platform and the mountings is going to be enormous, hence it really wouldn't take much for something to give and cause a catastrophe. I wouldn't stand anywhere near it!



The mounting wouldn't be a problem, jet engines are tested in mounts sideways, much like the rocket engines near me at Stennis Space Center are, so that worry is minimal.

Jet engines are some of the biggest contributors to air pollution, so that is my concern.  They are merely going to create more pollution, while the whole mess will not effectively be moved anywhere, maybe just expanding more of the pollution zone  around Delhi.


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

Sure, but how high is that inversion layer* and how much thrust is left by the time the exhaust reaches it? With the wide fanout, I can't help but think that next to nothing would reach it. If they were hypothetically mounted at the top of a tall building or tower I think it would significantly improve this.

*Sounds like something out of a sci-fi movie, hehe.



rtwjunkie said:


> The mounting wouldn't be a problem, jet enjoined are tested in mounts sideways, so that worry is minimal.
> 
> Jet engines are some of the biggest contributors to air pollution, so that is my concern.  They are merely going to create more pollution, while the whole mess will not effectively be moved anywhere, maybe just expanding more of the pollution zone  around Delhi.



Perhaps you're right about the mounting, I dunno. We're talking about something that will be reasonably permanent and be used a lot, so fatigue will develop. Therefore, it's possible that one could slip sideways eventually. Thing is, unlike an aeroplane, it's whole thrust must be resisted all the time. The aeroplane moves, significantly reducing the stress and strain on the mountings.

Yup, burning fossil fuels to help pollution from fossil fuels. Sounds like an oxymoron.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

rtwjunkie said:


> Jet engines are some of the biggest contributors to air pollution




yes they consume a lot but its _where_ jet engines leave the pollution is the issue,  exhaust from these devices could be dealt with on site.



qubit said:


> so fatigue will develop.




you plan for and manage this through inspection and maintenance.


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> you plan for and manage this through inspection and maintenance.


Yeah I know. Somehow I don't trust them not to cut corners to save money. Even with perfect maintenance, a permanent installation like this just doesn't sound safe to me.


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## rtwjunkie (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> Yeah I know. Somehow I don't trust them not to cut corners to save money. Even with perfect maintenance, a permanent installation like this just doesn't sound safe to me.



Read up where I edited. Where NASA tests each and every rocket engine is near me.  There, the engines are run at full blast for extended periods.  That's quite a bit more thrust than old jet engines.   I'm confident in their ability to mount these things securely.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

Check this from wiki about Badarpur Thermal Power Station in Delhi

_According to a 2015 study by the Centre for Science and Environment, The Badarpur Power Plant is the most polluting power plant in India. The plant contributed only 8% of the Delhi's electric power but produced 80 to 90% of the city's particulate matter pollution from the energy sector.[5]

During the Great smog of Delhi, the power plant was shut down to alleviate the acute air pollution suffered by residents of the city. It will remain shut until at least January 31, 2017_


makes me think theyve conjured up this idea so they can reopen this stinking rust bucket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badarpur_Thermal_Power_Station


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

Ok, maybe you're right rtw, but still... Perhaps I should clarify is that these things will be used in a production environment over an extended period ie years, where problems of where and tear can creep in and it doesn't take much for all that power to suddenly break an engine free due to a crack in a critical place.

Those rocket tests are done for a shorter time and there's a different ethos there so that sort of corner cutting seems much less likely to me. Again, this is more or less my opinion deduced from my general knowledge of these things rather than any specific experience, so don't shoot me! 

Caps, I want that glorious power station in my back yard _right now!_


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> I want that glorious power station in my back yard _right now!_




i dont, i saw a plan of the blast zone when i helped build the place. LNG is seriously explosive and if the storage chambers went up it would be like a small nuclear detonation.

It is a cool place though....massive everything...


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> i dont, i saw a plan of the blast zone when i helped build the place. LNG is seriously explosive and if the storage chambers went up it would be like a small nuclear detonation.
> 
> It is a cool place though....massive everything...


I wuz being sarcastic. 

What, did you help build that power station, or have I missed something?


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 13, 2016)

qubit said:


> What, did you help build that power station, or have I missed something?



No not in Delhi....Bloody Pembroke, where they use the jet engines, theres one under each of the stacks.
 i was there. (doing as little as possible, sitting in a big digger... )







https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_Power_Station


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## qubit (Dec 13, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> doing as little as possible


You lazy 



Spoiler



f*ck!


 

Nice pic.


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## natr0n (Dec 14, 2016)

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...lution&qft=+filterui:age-lt525600&FORM=R5IR39





It's so bad it's surreal.


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## tabascosauz (Dec 14, 2016)

R0H1T said:


> I do believe though that major industries in & around Delhi, especially Noida & other satellite towns, should be shifted at least 100kms away from the current (Delhi) periphery also odd/even should be in place for 6 months.



I also think that this will be the most viable solution for India. Many major cities in China have a similar (though slightly less severe) issue with smog and pollution, and the only way to truly tackle the issue is to move the industry culprits out of the city. They do it all the time for major international events; CCP forces factory owners to shut down a specified amount of time prior to the event, and the air clears up. Afterwards, the foreigners all leave and the factories start back up, and it's back to square one.


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## Caring1 (Dec 14, 2016)

natr0n said:


> Something something ...Giant air filters.


Like these?
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/worlds-largest-air-purifier-takes-on-chinas-smog.224032/


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

And while this is going on I'm being bombarded with chemtrails daily.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

I've been trying to find out a bit more about the inversion layer, specifically its' altitude, i cant find anything but i did find these interesting snippets.



The scientists were inspired by a similar experiment with turbojets in the Baltic region about 45 years ago.

The added emissions due to the jet operation are roughly 0.1% of the emissions from the power plant. Furthermore, the jet engines do not operate continuously. They will work only during foggy conditions, which could last for 30-50 days a year
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...engine-to-fight-smog/articleshow/55917261.cms


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

Commercial Jet fuel also has aluminum added.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> Commercial Jet fuel also has aluminum added.




Do you mean lead? 

Tetra-ethyl lead is added to improve the anti-knock characteristics of Avgas. There are pressures to eliminate this additive on environmental grounds. Alternative ways of boosting the octane rating of Avgas have still to be found however.

Antioxidants (gum inhibitors) must be used in Avgas to prevent the formation of gum and other antioxidation products. Jet fuels, which are inherently more stable than gasolines, may contain them, depending on the treatment process used during manufacture.

A metal deactivator - now rarely used - may be added to nullify the effects of dissolved trace metals, especially copper, which can impair the thermal stability of jet fuels.

Corrosion inhibitors can be used to reduce corrosion in fuel system and improve the lubricity - lubricating properties - of jet fuels.

Fuel system icing inhibitors reduce the freezing point of any water that may be in the fuel system and prevent the formation of ice crystals that could restrict fuel flow. They are mandatory in military Jet but are not used in civil aircraft that have fuel heaters. They may be added to either Jet or Avgas during the fuelling of small aircraft.

Static dissipater additives minimise the hazardous effects of static charges that build up during movement of jet fuels. 

http://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aviation-fuel/aeroshell-performance-additive.html


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> Do you mean lead?
> 
> Tetra-ethyl lead is added to improve the anti-knock characteristics of Avgas. There are pressures to eliminate this additive on environmental grounds. Alternative ways of boosting the octane rating of Avgas have still to be found however.
> 
> ...



No, I mean aluminum and barium.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> No, I mean aluminum and barium.



Have you got a link to a spec sheet?


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> Have you got a link to a spec sheet?



I do not.
There used to be quite a bit on this going back 15 years ago, but Google has sanitized much of it.
A good repository of posts by commercial and military pilots on this subject can be read here:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=87a74c9c8dcc40faa8bf1dad5c30cbda&showforum=64


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

is that a conspiracy theory site?


i prefer to see facts not tainted opinions.


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> is that a conspiracy theory site?



No. They do not theorize.
It is a conspiracy facts site.


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> And while this is going on I'm being bombarded with chemtrails daily.



Ok, I tried to watch that but couldn't get past "Reality Zone" and "Truth Media"

It's like their compensating for a lack of something...  truth maybe?


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## qubit (Dec 14, 2016)

Looks like a conspiracy truther site. In other words, nothing to take seriously.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> No. They do not theorize.
> It is a conspiracy facts site.




hahahahahaaha

thats what they all say.


EDIT see pages 72-73
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp76-c3.pdf


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

qubit said:


> Looks like a conspiracy truther site. In other words, nothing to take seriously.



Am I the only one who finds it ironic they call themselves "truthers" or anything to do with the truth?


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

That's it, don't even read it to see if it makes any sense.
But just take a look at the resumes of the members, then ask yourself if these people are serious:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

BTW The phrase _conspiracy theory_ was coined by the FBI in response to those who did not believe the official story of the JFK murder.

It is a _thought bomb_ designed to induce a knee-jerk reaction.


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> It is a _thought bomb_ designed to induce a knee-jerk reaction.



Ok, who coined the term "thought bomb" then?  What's its purpose?

And if I did look over it.  Briefly.  That's all it took.  I can't spend time with people who are seriously that out there.  There are limits to reason.  Some people lack this.


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Ok, who coined the term "thought bomb" then?
> 
> And if I did look over it.  Briefly.  That's all it took.  I can't spend time with people who are seriously that out there.  There are limits to reason.  Some people lack this.



Yes, aerospace engineers, military test pilots, commercial pilots, physicists, they all lack reason.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> Yes, aerospace engineers, military test pilots, commercial pilots, physicists, they all lack reason.
> http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html



If they seriously believe half the things they read, they are in the "I want to believe" category, which is a serious violation of scientific method.

Mind you, I only browsed the forum.  Maybe the mods and core staff are higher grade.

I just know if it smells like poo, I stay away, even if there might be gold bars hidden in it(Because there usually isn't).

My brain hurts too much without that kind of stuff.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

Given that the jet turbans they Indians intend to use will only contribute 0.1% to the pollution, the jet exhaust is a non issue in this instance.

i still cant find a data sheet that lists aluminium or barium as additives.


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> Given that the jet *turbans* they Indians intend to use will only contribute 0.1% to the pollution, the jet exhaust is a non issue in this instance.
> 
> i still cant find a data sheet that lists aluminium or barium as additives.



Are they Sihks?


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## natr0n (Dec 14, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> Like these?
> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/worlds-largest-air-purifier-takes-on-chinas-smog.224032/



Yes.


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

natr0n said:


> Yes.



And what's going to power it?

Hint, I bet it's starting up again in 2017.


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> Are they Sihks?



Ok, you got me.  I lol'd.


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> If they seriously believe half the things they read, they are in the "I want to believe" category, which is a serious violation of scientific method.
> 
> Mind you, I only browsed the forum.  Maybe the mods and core staff are higher grade.
> 
> ...



@R-T-B
Yes, because scientists and engineers just want to believe things without proofs.


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> @R-T-B
> Yes, because scientists and engineers just want to believe things without proofs.



From what I read, yes, which leads me to believe it's either a serious case of credential lying, or the forum user base does not represent the core staff.

They did have one little notice telling people not to believe everything they read about chemtrails.  Their basic reasoning was if they were real people would be flying through them and dying every day.  That was nice...  I guess.  Though given they are entirely theoretical by even that posts admission, whose to say what they are made of would kill you?

Leaps of faith like that abound in that forum.  That's what bothered me.


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## dorsetknob (Dec 14, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Hint, I bet it's starting up again in 2017.



They have other problems with this plant anyway
from wilki
The coal for the plant is derived from the Jharia Coal Fields
from wilki also
Jharia is famous for a coal field fire that has burned underground for nearly a century. The first fire was detected in 1916.[3] According to records, it was the Khas Jharia mines of Seth Khora Ramji Chawda (1860–1923), who was a pioneer of Indian coalmines, whose mines were one of the firsts to collapse in underground fire in 1930. Two of his collieries, Khas Jharia & Golden Jharia, which worked on maximum 260-foot-deep shafts,[16] collapsed due to now infamous underground fires, in which their house & bungalow also collapsed on 8 November 1930, causing 18 feet subsidence and widespread destruction.[7][9][16][17][18][19] The fire never stopped despite sincere efforts by mines department and railway authorities and in 1933 flaming crevasses lead to exodus of many residents.[16] The Bihar 1934 earthquake led to further spread of fire and by 1938 the authorities had declared that there is raging fire beneath the town with 42 collieries out of 133 on fire.[20]

In 1972, more than 70 mine fires were reported in this region. As of 2007, more than 400,000 people who reside in Jharia are living on land in danger of subsidence due to the fires, and according to Satya Pratap Singh, "Jharia township is on the brink of an ecological and human disaster".[21] The government has been criticized for a perceived lackadaisical attitude[22] towards the safety of the people of Jharia.[23] Heavy fumes emitted by the fires[24] lead to severe health problems such as breathing disorders and skin diseases among the local population.[25]


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## Ungari (Dec 14, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> From what I read, yes, which leads me to believe it's either a serious case of credential lying, or the forum user base does not represent the core staff.
> 
> They did have one little notice telling people not to believe everything they read about chemtrails.  That was nice...  I guess.



I've had Capt. Balsamo come on a thread of mine, it would be fun to have that happen here.
They have produced several films, and have been featured on TV shows like Jesse Ventura, if anyone was lying about credentials they'd have been crucified by the media.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

Conspiracy theorists do my head right in. Can we get back to Delhis smog problem.

I'm defo not going to sit through 41 minutes of guff.

@dorsetknob from clicking your sig it appears you have a proper hero close to you. "Lest we forget."


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## R-T-B (Dec 14, 2016)

Ungari said:


> They have produced several films, and have been featured on TV shows like Jesse Ventura, if anyone was lying about credentials they'd have been crucified by the media.



We're way OT at this point, but even if we accept their credentials, there are an equal if not far greater number of other people with credentials of equal or greater value arguing for the governments story.

But I'm not here to debate conspiracy theories.  I just didn't like what I saw in their forums, and I doubt many people would take them seriously given a browse there.

Back to the subject.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

@btarunr 

i know its not easy to judge but could you approximate the altitude of the temperature inversion you flew through at Delhi.


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## thebluebumblebee (Dec 14, 2016)

qubit said:


> it's whole thrust must be resisted all the time. The aeroplane moves, significantly reducing the stress and strain on the mountings.


Ahh, no.  A jet engine producing 50,000 lbs of thrust, continues to produce 50,000 lbs of thrust regardless of whether the plane is stopped or moving 250 mph.   Actually, those mounts fascinate me.  All that weight and thrust through just a few bolts.  I would think that designing a mounting system for this would be a very easy project for any mechanical engineer.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Dec 14, 2016)

Surprisingly, they are designed to break on an aircraft  in case the (shear) loads on them cross a certain threshold. The engine-to-wing supporting structure is designed to release the engine when extreme forces are encountered, in order to prevent any structural damage to the wing that may impair the aircraft's ability to fly.


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## revin (Dec 14, 2016)

Even a military jet can spool up to full afterburner thrust on the ground, with just it's own brakes holding. A town about 15 mi. from us has test stand's for remanufacturing testing.
This moves a lot of snow rather nicely  
[yt]


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## qubit (Dec 15, 2016)

thebluebumblebee said:


> Ahh, no.  *A jet engine producing 50,000 lbs of thrust, continues to produce 50,000 lbs of thrust regardless of whether the plane is stopped or moving 250 mph.*   Actually, those mounts fascinate me.  All that weight and thrust through just a few bolts.  I would think that designing a mounting system for this would be a very easy project for any mechanical engineer.


Yes, quite.  I was confusing it with an _accelerating_ airplane which would have less stress on the mountings for any particular engine thrust. Once the speed becomes constant, the opposing force of air resistance on the airplane of course equals the engine thrust making the stress on the mountings the same as an engine mounted on a test stand. See, I was testing you. 

@revin I'm surprised that it's so easily held back. The really big Trent 1000 engine would be a bit more of a handful, though.

@Ungari Love that truther video with all the CGI. Made for great fictional entertainment.


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## revin (Dec 17, 2016)

Pretty much the same as when they are mounted on aircraft, but indeed more reinforcing to four legs to hold them vertical


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## BiggieShady (Dec 17, 2016)

When there's a conspiracy it's always a theory, the only logical conclusion is that conspiracies never ever happen anywhere


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## dorsetknob (Dec 17, 2016)

BiggieShady said:


> When there's a conspiracy it's always a theory, the only logical conclusion is that conspiracies never ever happen anywhere


"" Is there a conspiracy ??? are you posting to muddy the Waters""
I'm not sure myself !!! The voices in my head say moar feedback needed so turn the Volume up


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## infrared (Dec 17, 2016)

Ungari said:


> @R-T-B
> Yes, because scientists and engineers just want to believe things without proofs.


They don't just believe something that they wanted to see... The scientific method is that you try to disprove your idea, again and again. And then they have their hypothesis and method peer reviewed so even more people try to disprove the thing. It's the opposite method to what sudoscience and most conspiracy theories are based on. When nobody can disprove the thing, it becomes an accepted theory. _Note, even then it is still not considered fact!!_


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 17, 2016)

They should just be using those smog collectors that China just experimented with.  The consume very little power and make the air cleaner, not just pass it on to someone else.


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## Ungari (Dec 17, 2016)

infrared said:


> They don't just believe something that they wanted to see... The scientific method is that you try to disprove your idea, again and again. And then they have their hypothesis and method peer reviewed so even more people try to disprove the thing. It's the opposite method to what sudoscience and most conspiracy theories are based on. When nobody can disprove the thing, it becomes an accepted theory. _Note, even then it is still not considered fact!!_



They do not theorize, they merely disprove the official explanation of events.
Look at how the government contradicts the Flight Data Recorder.


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## infrared (Dec 17, 2016)

I've seen it, and frankly speaking laughed my ass off at it. That was a long time ago. I don't wanna discuss it further.


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## Toothless (Dec 18, 2016)

So uh.. going back on topic since people to be booty hurt about things.

What ever happened to that one giant filter thingy that used biodegradable chemicals to capture nasty air particles at three times more efficient than they had thought on paper? They tested it in a football field.


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## EarthDog (Dec 18, 2016)

If that isn't a dull knife perspective...


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## BiggieShady (Dec 18, 2016)

dorsetknob said:


> "" Is there a conspiracy ??? are you posting to muddy the Waters""
> I'm not sure myself !!! The voices in my head say moar feedback needed so turn the Volume up


Why yes, I'm posting to muddy the waters, thanks for asking ... and there are no conspiracies ever, all theories ... and since I'm just a voice in your head, you'd be best to ignore me ... me and that other one telling you to kill 'em all


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## R-T-B (Dec 18, 2016)

BiggieShady said:


> When there's a conspiracy it's always a theory, the only logical conclusion is that conspiracies never ever happen anywhere



Actually, no.  If it's a theory, that just means it needs more evidence before becoming fact, something all conspiracies share that have not been proven.

You don't see people debating the conspiracy to assasinate Abraham Lincoln, do you?


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## BiggieShady (Dec 18, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Actually, no. If it's a theory, that just means it needs more evidence before becoming fact, something all conspiracies share that have not been proven.


Well ... yeah, you see my "logical conclusion" was not really a logical conclusion ... more of an illogical conclusion since it's sarcasm


R-T-B said:


> You don't see people debating the conspiracy to assasinate Abraham Lincoln, do you?


People conspire, that's what they do, the criminal effect of a conspiracy is always factual, undeniable and in your face ... like with all lying the trouble begins when liars are not very good at lying, good conspiracy doesn't have any theories at all because official explanation is good enough for most people save some small percentage of paranoids in a population ... when a "conspiracy theory" gets to a wide public debate, it's already past that point and sooner or later it unravels but alas, quite possibly to a generation that, for some reason, doesn't care anymore to punish the people that are already dead.
I'd love to stay off topic, but its getting rude of me ... even more so because I have no idea what the thread is about.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 18, 2016)

BiggieShady said:


> Well ... yeah, you see my "logical conclusion" was not really a logical conclusion ... more of an illogical conclusion since it's sarcasm
> 
> People conspire, that's what they do, the criminal effect of a conspiracy is always factual, undeniable and in your face ... like with all lying the trouble begins when liars are not very good at lying, good conspiracy doesn't have any theories at all because official explanation is good enough for most people save some small percentage of paranoids in a population ... when a "conspiracy theory" gets to a wide public debate, it's already past that point and sooner or later it unravels but alas, quite possibly to a generation that, for some reason, doesn't care anymore to punish the people that are already dead.
> I'd love to stay off topic, but its getting rude of me ... even more so because I have no idea what the thread is about.



Thread is about pollution.

Thread is polluted, too. And somehow 9/11 got into it as well, don't ask how, perhaps because planes have jet engines.


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