# What do you use to cool your computer?



## ex_reven (Sep 27, 2006)

What do you use to cool your computer? How do you rate its effectiveness? Cost Effective?

*CPU - Stock Intel Prescott Socket 775 Cooler*

Pros - Good for stock cooling, Easy Removal via thumbscrews, not ugly, not oversized, easy to clean

Cons - Loud, not good at all for overclocking

*Case - 2 120mm no name case fans*

Pros - Keep the ambient internal temperature down, quiet, Quad Red LEDs for sexy goodness

Cons - Not effective in hot external conditions

EDIT: Im gonna try and use your responses to discern what is a effective aftermarket cooler so i can replace mine


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## DR.Death (Sep 27, 2006)

if u want to replace your cooler get a zalman artic cooler or a high end water system


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Sep 27, 2006)

2 x 120mm + 90mm = Cool air on CPU, but lots of dust on the filters...  
CPU = AF64Pro = Cool, quite, overclocking friendly


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## i_am_mustang_man (Sep 27, 2006)

does the AF64pro (or eq) work as well on 775 as 939?  idk, but if it's anywhere comparable, go with that, because it's effin amazing.  my comp is sitting at 28idle right now, and loads at 40C. that's not bad for a 30% OC too. but have it pointing to an exhaust fan cuz that will make the heat jump out of your case


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 27, 2006)

with an arctic freezer7pro on my 775 D930@4050/1.35vcore,it keeps my temp at 41-43c idle and 53c max.

pros-cheap,good for oc'ing

cons-noisy at full tilt


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## Deleted member 3 (Sep 27, 2006)

What says more about this thread? The current topic title "Your opinion" or the first sentence "What do you use to cool your computer?"

I'll just stick with my opinion, I think my current work sucks so I decided to take a break and eat bread with chicken filet. In my opinion that's a great idea.

In order to prevent other people to give their crappy opinions I'll change the topic title for you so it's a lot clearer, next time you may do this yourself.


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## 144 and UP (Sep 27, 2006)

I use the Evo33 to cool my Opt@2.88GHz temps are 31-33 idle 44 max. but is  noisy when the fan is on full.


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## pt (Sep 27, 2006)

i use the stock cooler on cpu and gfx, and i have:
1x140mm (front) (no name)
2x120mm (side) (noiseblocker XL2)
1x120mm (rear) (no name)
1x140mm (PSU) (outake)
it is overclocked to 2700mhz at 53ºc under load  

Front and side - intake
PSU and rear - outake


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## LiLvi3tbOi69 (Sep 27, 2006)

TRiCOD 8078 case..
2 front intake 80mm and 2 back exhaust 80mm

pros: good lookin..cheap
cons: cooling a midtower with 4 80mm fans..i wouldnt say is too great


AMD 3800 939 proessor

pros: very fast, great price,
cons: gets hot easilly.



oh and..when u guys read ur temperatures.. do u guys use the CPU Diode temperature? or jsut the CPU temperature


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## pt (Sep 27, 2006)

LiLvi3tbOi69 said:


> TRiCOD 8078 case..
> 2 front intake 80mm and 2 back exhaust 80mm
> 
> pros: good lookin..cheap
> ...




i use pc probe 2


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## Azn Tr14dZ (Sep 27, 2006)

Case: Super Talent
Front Intake 120mm 78CFM Fan
Rear Exhaust 120mm 78CFM Fan
Side Panel Intake 80mm 30CFM Fan (For RAM Modules)

CPU Cooler: Thermaltake Big Typhoon
2.8Ghz Idle: 33-35
2.8Ghz Load: 44-46


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## JC316 (Sep 28, 2006)

CPU- Stock AMD. Cools eficently enough, plus it's quiet.

Case- 120MM Raid Maxx rear exaust. 1 80MM front intake. 1 80mm side intake. It cools decent enough, I would like something a tad faster though.


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## stevorob (Sep 28, 2006)

Case - Lian-Li PC-61

2x front intake
1x top exhaust
1x rear exhuast

Stock AMD Cooler on Processor
     28-30C Idle @ 2.55Ghz
     49-51C Load @ 2.55Ghz

ATI Silencer 5 on my X850XT
      35C Idle @ 618/620
      About 60C Load @ 618/620


My room stays cool... we keep the AC cranked at like 70


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## Protius (Sep 28, 2006)

Case- Thermaltake Armor
1-120mm front intake
1-25cm side intake
1-120mm back exhaust
1-90mm back exhaust
1-90mm top exaust

cpu-A64 freezer pro

Video- Accelero X2's on both
-with 1 90mm fan blowing on them, thank god for zip ties (these x1800's are hot little buggers)


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## cdawall (Sep 28, 2006)

top this dell optiplex gx100 no fans and the cpu cooler is smaller than what comes on most vidcards nowadays 
pros small, dead silent
cons overclocking man thats funny 

oh and my amd system is alot easier 
case ultra 4bay
5x 80mm fans ~30crm for the silent ones and ~70cfm for the not so silent one
temps 57C load 2.46ghz (stock amd hsf)
pros very quiet wheni use my variable fan turned all the way down 
cons well its broken now so what do you think the cons are?


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## Protius (Sep 28, 2006)

^ thats the one and only thing i'll give to dell, they're frigin quiet


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## ktr (Sep 28, 2006)

CPU: FX57
COOLER: G/B G-Power Pro

Pro: Good cooling; blue; nickle plated copper. kinda quite of low...
Con: Doesnt matter if the speed is high or low...it performs the same; extremely loud on high. 

CASE: Antec Superlanboy
FANS: Two 120mm fans

Pro: Simple, effective cooling; when intake = outake means less dust inside unit
Con: front one is only blue, rear has no led; a little loud...but doesnt matter. 

Memory: Cheap (unknown brand...lol...got it for free) Four 1gig Sticks pc3200 ddr.
Cooling: Vantec Copper Heatsinks

Pro: Makes cheap heatsink look expensive...lol
Con: Memory doesnt usually overheat.

VGA: x850 Pro Agp
Cooling; Stock, but help with a Vantec PCI Fan (two 70mm fans)

Pro: Cools card, and it blue. I just got it cause it was blue..
Con: not as affective as a upgrade hs/f for the card.


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## ex_reven (Sep 28, 2006)

does anyone find that 80mm fans more efficient (blows more air because of faster rpm) but more noisy than 120mm?

or is this just because some 80mm fans are cheap and some brand names are good?


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## JC316 (Sep 28, 2006)

I would agree with that statement, my two 80MM's pull more air than the big 120 in the back.

YAY 500 POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## savillm (Sep 28, 2006)

my case is a jeantech achilles with:

120mm fan blowing air in from the front of my case

120mm fan sucking air out the back of my case

80mm fan on side blowing into case 

80mm fan on top blowing air out

cpu cooler is a akasa AK-961 on a intel p4 with ht @ 3ghz

ram cooling i got 2x Akasa AK-171 blue

graphic card is stock cooling atm

i dont overclock, is this cooling a ok or could it be better?


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## ex_reven (Sep 28, 2006)

i dont believe cooling is required unless your current system is either noisy or hot...
if its noisy you could increase/replace the cooling devices to meet the cooling requirements of your system...

without overclocking, you can get away with using most stock components, after market cooling is only required for 
a) the cooling freak (obsessive cooling syndrome lol)
b) hardware enthusiast/overclocker
c) badly designed or inadequate cooling (eg a videocard that runs hot because it has no fan)


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## Inventus (Sep 28, 2006)

*Noiseless*

My workstation, equipped with a 2.8GHz P4 (HyperThreading) and a Radeon 9800, is able to run graphic-intensive games (such as Oblivion etc.) without any increase in noise. The noise level is about the same as a person whispering at the other end of a large room 

This is achieved by the following cooling solution:

My LianLi case is equipped with a single 120mm Scythe (fluid-bearing, 800rpm) fan (which is noiseless, even when held close to the ear), as well as the 120mm fan in my 500W Seasonic PSU. No further fans are in the case. These provide a low, but necessary air-flow to any components not otherwise activly cooled, including the PSU, the voltage regulator, the passive heatsink on my chipset (Intel, so it doesn't get very hot) and the heatsinks on my paired RAM sticks (2x1Gb PC3200 CL2).

My CPU and GPU and the two fluid-bearing harddisks are cooled by waterblocks. The GPU block (Innovatek, since AquaComputer was out of stock) also cover the VRAM and other GFX chips, which is important these days! The harddisk blocks are probably unnecessary and is primarily there to provide some additional cooling of the water, as the harddisks are mounted close to the air-intake.

I use a Reserator 1 (old, blue model) to cool the water passively. On this I've mounted a RF1 (Reserator Fan), which is only started (by SpeedFan) when the CPU or GPU temperatures rise due to intensive gaming etc. When running at all (which is only after long periods of high load) I run it at just 25% to keep the noise down (allowing the game sounds to block it out).

Since the pump inside the Reserator is apparantly mounted incorrectly (at least in the old model?) It broke after about a year. I've now mounted a MAG pump inside my case instead. Aside from providing a much higher waterflow, this pump also allow me to monitor the pump rpm, as it provides tacho-output through its fan-connector (I guess it could even be speed-regulated, only the motherboard connector I currently use doesn't allow this). I removed the old pump from the Reserator of course, to prevent it from restricting flow.

Note that both the two harddisk water-blocks and the external fan on the Reserator aren't really necessary, except for very high performance hardware. As such I'm sure my system would run just fine without these (though I guess a PC with a faster CPU and one of the latest SLI GFX cards would likely need the Reserator FAN, especially if you want to overclock, which I personally find unnecessary).

Beware that many motherboards only provide limited power-ratings for their fan-connectors, and as such it may be necessary for pumps using fan-conncetors (such as my MAG) to be connected using a molex-connector instead (be sure to use one with a tacho pass-through connector though,so you can monitor the pump). Such a connector was included with my MAG pump, but having an Intel motherboard, which provide 25 Watt on the CPU connector, I'm not using it.

I can HIGHLY recommend water-cooling, especially using a passive (external) radiator, such as the Zalman Reserator or similar solutions available from various companies. Not only does it provide MUCH higher heat-removal than ANY air-based cooling solution, but it also prevents overheating to a much greater extent. As such, I can switch of my pump entirely for extended periods (up to one hour), without any components reaching critical temperatures. With the pump running, my CPU never goes beyond 45 deg.C. while my GPU will stay below 60 deg.C. (and this will likely get much lower, once I remount its waterblock using a proper thermal compound) These temperatures are WITHOUT the fan on the radiator running (with this at 100% the CPU stays below 40 deg.C.) And this is despite the fact that I still use the, rather poor, CPU water-block that was included with the Reserator 1.

Another, seldom noted, benefit from water-cooling, is that it is CHEAP!!! This is not immediatly apparant, as a complete water-cooling solution is indeed somewhat more expensive than a similar air-cooling solution. However, the fact is that fans tend to have a limited life-span, especially if your PC isn't in a "clean-room" (moreso if you, like me, smoke a lot). The same, although to a lesser extent, can be said about the heatsinks, since these tend to get covered in dust and dirt, which can be difficult to remove completely (note that even a very thin layer of grime, not to mention tar and nicotine, will impair performance to an unexpected extent). On the other hand, most water-cooling equipment will run for years without any significant performance-reduction. Thus you will likely be able to re-use your water-cooling components through several hardware upgrade cycles, whereas most fans and heatsinks will have to be replaced on a yearly basis (or at least cleaned thoroughly).

In relation to the above I want to note that I've not used the most expensive parts, by far. The conclusion is that you don't need the most expensive water-blocks, nor do you need a very powerful pump (my old one was 5W, the new one is about 18W) or a super-efficient radiator, in order to achieve better cooling than even the most expensive and high performance air-cooling solutions. This of course, unless you want to overclock your hardware to rediculous levels, in which case air-cooling isn't even an option.

Also, in my experience, water-cooling is much easier to maintain, as you can get away with changing water once or twice a year (which is easy if you use an external reservoir, such as the Reserator). In fact I didn't change my water for more than two years, which is not recommended (lots of strange stuff in the water when I finally changed it), but this just shows how resilient water-cooling really is (my cooling-performance was only slightly lowered at the end, and probably more from the slowly dying Reserator pump than anything else). If you plan to change water at long intervals (ie. more than six months), I can highly recommend adding a few drops of whatever anti-corrosion and/or anti-algae fluid you use once in a while (say, every three months or so).

The biggest surprise in this regard, was when I opened my case for the first time in two and a half years, only to find that not a single speck of dust had been deposited on my hardware components or inside the case. Being a heavy smoker, I'm used to seeing several centimeters of brownish dust and grime inside my previous air-cooled PCs, and that after just a few months of operation. I should mention that my current PC is the first to have any kind of air-filter (included with the LianLi case), but then again, I'm sure my old air-cooled PC wouldn't have liked this kind of "blockage", preventing the high air-flow necessary to keep its CPU below the 70+ deg.C. it used to run at!

You will, of course, have to take care not to spill water onto your hardware, but even this isn't quite as difficult as it may sound, if you just take a little care when taking apart your system. In fact I once did a stupid thing, by blowing into the water-hose to empty it while forgetting that it was disconnected inside the case! Luckily only a few drops of water remained in the hose, and neither my motherboard nor my GFX card seem to suffer from the shower (I made sure to wipe them off and let them dry before restoring power of course). To prevent damage to the expensive components, should this kind of "accident" happen again, I've now purchased a special cooling-fluid which isn't electrically conductive. Since I've yet to exchange my water with this, rather expensive, fluid, I can't say if it is as good as water (few fluids are better than pure water, when it comes to removing heat!)

I hope my experience will encourage some of you to go for a water-cooled solution the next time you decide to upgrade your PC. Nowadays you can even get quite cheap, completely factory-sealed, water-kits, where you don't ever have to change the water and which should be as easy to mount as your average heatsink+fan kit (just don't expect these ready-to-run kits to be nearly as effective as a system you put together yourself!)

I certainly know that I'm NEVER going back to those noisy, short-lived and unreliable fans. Rather I plan to water-cool my fileserver as well, even though it isn't placed in my living room like my workstation and therefore doesn't need to be as quiet. Still, just to get the peace-of-mind and increased cooling-performance, I plan to use the old water-cooling parts for the server, when I decide to upgrade my workstation.


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## ktr (Sep 28, 2006)

80 feels like they blow more are because its a more contentrated airflow. 120 can do the same job, cover a higher area, with less rpm and noise. to prove this concept, slap a 80to120 adapter on a 120mm fan. i have one of those silverstone 120mm fans on my other comp that can push 110cfm, and 3-4 times quieter than the tornados.


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## Inventus (Sep 28, 2006)

If you want decent airflow and very low noise, try a Scythe S-FLEX fan. These actually DO have the same bearing technology as modern harddisks (ie. fluid-dynamic).

Be advised though, that the 800rpm one moves very little air (but it's SILENT, even if you use it to shave the hair in your ears!) The higher-rpm ones should move a more decent volume of air, while still being very quiet.

Linkage: http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/acc/002/sflex_detail.html

Btw. ktr is right, take it from someone who have read a lot of thermofluid litterature! A 120mm fan will, everything else being equal, move more air with less noise than a similar 80mm fan.

Aside from the reason that ktr so correctly states, for why you might expeirence otherwise (larger flow area = less "windspeed", which is why it's quiter btw.) other reasons include differences in the construction of the fan-blades and/or the DC-motor, as well as the type of bearings used.

A cheap way to prevent fan noise, is to purchase high-flow fans, and then run these at less-than full speed, such as 50-90%. (You'll be surprised how much a mere 10% speed reduction have to say for some fans!)

However, do NOT expect a fan to be quiet, if you use your motherboard to regulate its speed!!! 

Most motherboards use PWM (pulse-width modulation) to regulate the DC voltage supplied to its fans. This will cause most fans (especially cheaper ones) to emit a very annoying "buzz" or "ticking-noise".

This is easy to remedy, at least if you aren't afraid of doing a little soldering (buy two or three large electrolytic capacitors, say 3 x 2000nF, and connect these in parallel with the fan, making sure the polarity is correct). To make this work even better (notably at very low speeds), you may be able to increase the PWM frequency, using SpeedFan or similar (default is typically around 10Hz. Setting it somewhat higher, say 50-100Hz should smooth the voltage even further, allowing your fan to operate more efficiently and without any PWM noise!)

For most people though, it will be much easier to simply buy a fan-regulator (one that does NOT use PWM of course!) Even if this doesn't allow you to use software or the BIOS to regulate the fans (at least not without re-introducing the PWM noise).


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## pt (Sep 28, 2006)

Noyseblocker fans are very good too


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## ktr (Sep 28, 2006)

funny part is that you cant run a tornado at low speeds. the coils are so spaced out (giving it high speed and torque, you really cant stop the fan with you finger without get cut or burned) that the magnetic pull can spin the fan with low current. sometimes you have to jump start it (like the old planes...lol).


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## gR3iF (Sep 28, 2006)

Water only clear water


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## ktr (Sep 28, 2006)

i would like to see someone to put there comp in the fridge, or freezer...and see the low temsp.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 28, 2006)

DD MAze 4 AM2 for me. Passivly cooled via chilled minifridge with a hydor L30 for pumping.

It works well..


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## ex_reven (Sep 29, 2006)

ktr said:


> i would like to see someone to put there comp in the fridge, or freezer...and see the low temsp.



We have a freezer at work, gets to about -28 degrees centigrade

i dont think theyd be too happy about my computer being in there though 

further, i was interested in water cooling but i always thought it was expensive...i shall look into it

lastly, with the scythe fans, the high speed 120mm one goes at 1600rpm producing 28 decibels
is there any way i can fathom how much this is before i buy this fan? 
(eg some sort of program that produces a 28 decibel noise via my speakers so i can see if that noise level is acceptable?)


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## Boneface (Sep 29, 2006)

i use a zalman 7700 and a vf770 for gpu along with the cooling air of canadian weather...i use ducting attached to the side fan of my case and the other side out my window with a screen to keep anything from flying into it...last winter i had temps down to at least -5c


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## Inventus (Sep 29, 2006)

*Freezer/fridge won't cut it*

Your average fridge or even a deepfreezer simply won't cut it, I'm afraid.

The compressors used in such household appliances (even the larger ones) are built to tolerate a certain duty-cycle, and as such they will likely burn out VERY quickly, if run continously. 

Even if you find a fridge or freezer with a compressor able to handle continous running, consider the fact that your fridge is quite efficiently insulated, and as such doesn't need to have very much heat-energy removed to maintain it's low temperature.

This means that the power-rating, and thus the heat-removal capacity, of even a very large freezer (say one used in a restaurant or grocery-store) won't be able to remove the large amount of heat generated by your typical performance PC. These days this will easy be as much as 300-500 Watt (thermal).

This is why some companies are able to sell refrigeration units for PCs at such high prices. These have been designed specifically for PC, and are able to handle the large heat-removal requirements as well as the need for continous operation.


Linkage:

http://www.asetek.com/

This Danish company produce high-performance units (product name: VapoChill) able to cool your CPU (but typically nothing else) down to below (or at least close to) freezing temperatures. This, however requires special care to avoid condensation on the chip and its surroundings.

http://www.alphacool.de/

This German company produce a series of VERY nice "water chillers" (product name: Titan). These work by using refrigeration techniques like the above VapoChill product, but instead of cooling the chip directly, they cool water instead, as well as providing the reservoir and circulation-pump. Such a unit will work as a VERY efficient external radiator/reservoir/pump, and even comes with electronic temperature, pump and fan control, able to maintain a given water temperature. Even though the larger models could probably keep all the (water-cooled) components in a PC at very low, if not exactly freezing temperatures (say 5-10 deg.C.) their real advantage, as compared to the above direct-refrigeration units, is that you can set the thermostat to maintain a water temperature just around the ambient air (say 18-22 deg.C.) and thus avoid any condensation trouble in your PC. Another advantage of this particular product is that they appear to have quite strong pumps, thus it may well be possible to place the cooling-unit in another room (or even outside, if sheltered from the weather), to avoid excessive noise and perhaps increase the cooling efficiency. A final, less obvious, advantage of the Titan series of "Water Chillers" is the possibility of mounting a conventional, small PC radiator with a low-noise 120mm fan INSIDE the PC case, and use the refrigerated water to cool the air in the case. This way you could simply circulate the same air in the PC case, completely preventing dust and smoke etc. from getting to your hardware AND you won't get any condensation problems, even if you set a very low water temperature (since the case air will be cooled as well), at least not inside the case (you might, in an extreme case, get condensation on the outside though, but assuming your case doesn't rust, wouldn't it just be cool to have a moist PC!!!)


Both of these products are VERY expensive though, and will use quite a lot of electricity. So I would still recommend a conventional water-cooling solution for most PC users, with a passive or active radiator depending on your noise-sensitivity and cooling-requirements.

Also keep in mind that the size of your radiator, especially if passive, is the main factor deciding the heat-removal capacity. Thus you might get quite a good result simply by finding an old (or new) household radiator of suitable size, mount it on the wall near your PC and use it like any other, dedicated PC-radiator, to cool the water for your PC. If you live in a cold climate, mounting the radiator outside will of course increase its efficiency (but don't forget to add anti-freeze to the coolingwater, unless you NEVER switch off your PC!!!)


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## ex_reven (Sep 29, 2006)

Inventus said:


> Your average fridge or even a deepfreezer simply won't cut it, I'm afraid... even a very large freezer (say one used in a restaurant or grocery-store) won't be able to remove the large amount of heat generated by your typical performance PC.



You gotta be shi77ing me 

i dont understand this concept, take my work freezer for example. It remains under -5 degrees even after being open for long periods of time. Even if you put a computer in there I dont see how it would increase the ambient air temperature (fkn cold) enough to overwork the compressors... a mini fridge i can understand, but a walk in freezer with about the volume of half your average pool?

Maybe if we applied mathematics (volume of air blown out of case x temperature of air blown out x time) divide it by the total volume of air in the freezer x air temperature we'd get some sort of result to be able to work out if the computer overcomes the freezer unit over a time span (of hours or days???) or if the change in air temperature is negligible. 

I hate...reallllllllly hate mathematics...but yeah, just expressing my doubts over the whole 'high volume fridge/freezer' thingy

I 'can' believe a mini fridge would get owned though


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## trog100 (Sep 29, 2006)

i use high end air.. but any fool can cool a PC.. doing it quietly is the hard bit.. and no my PC aint really quiet enough.. and it fills up with dust like mad.. filters just mean more noisy fan power to overcome the filter resistance.. 

zalman sell something akin to the house radiator idea.. i like it.. one day perhaps.. he he he

trog


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## trog100 (Sep 29, 2006)

"I 'can' believe a mini fridge would get owned though"

try it one day.. stick a half kilowatt fan heater in your normal household fridge and see how cold it stays.. 

trog


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## ex_reven (Sep 29, 2006)

trog100 said:


> "I 'can' believe a mini fridge would get owned though"
> 
> try it one day.. stick a half kilowatt fan heater in your normal household fridge and see how cold it stays..
> 
> trog



I'll pass...unless someones selling a fridge factory for cheap !
*Stands with one hand to waist and the other as a visor as if staring some great distance*

...coincidentally  have you tried this ?


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## Inventus (Sep 29, 2006)

ex_raven:

Ok, I'll admit that a "walk-in-freezer" would be likely to keep a PC (or twenty for that matter) cooled indefinitly. But then again, I wouldn't call such a contraption a "freezer", at least not in the sense "a cabinet-like thingy you purchase as a unit", but rather something like "a refrigerated room with an external refrigeration unit" (the latter probably being rated for thousands of kilowatts AND for continous running = VERY large, VERY noisy and using a LOT of energy).

But anyway... Who would want to place their PC inside a giant walk-in-freezer, when you can get a VapoChill system for a "mere" (relativly speaking) 200-300 euros, which will keep your CPU at least as cool as it would be inside a freezer (rembember the CPU would likely be at least some 10-20 deg.C. hotter than the air inside the freezer!)


trog100:

Making your PC quiet and cool isn't all that hard. See my previous posts in this thread for some pointers. The main thing is to switch to watercooling, while refraining from using the most expensive components, as these will typically be way overkill, unless you want to overclock an already powerfull configuration.

While watercooling components tend to be a bit more expensive than even top-notch fans and heatsinks, they will last MUCH longer and is thus cheaper in the long run, while keeping the inside of your case and the hardware MUCH cooler and cleaner (due to th lower airflow needed to keep the remaining electronics sufficiently cool).

These days watercooling isn't even difficult to install. If you REALLY don't want to risk anything and/or don't want to do the "plumbing" part, simply go for one of the factory-sealed water-kits, which installs much like any fan/heatsink combo (although not being quite as good as the DIY stuff).

Feel free to e-mail me, if you want specific advice on how to put together a good, while reasonably priced, watercooling solution for your PC.


Oh, and that Zalman "something aking to a household-radiator" would be their latest attempt at a passive radiator (I forget the model name), which is rectangular instead of cylindrical like the earlier "Reserator" models.

I should think a "real" household radiator, being much larger (depending on the radiator model of course), would offer much better performance than anything Zalman currently offers. Also it should be cheaper, at least if you are able to purchase a used one (or perhaps even get it for free?). The only advantage of the new rectangular Zalman model, is that it's small enough to mount on the side of your PC case, thus allowing you to carry it around (a bit difficult if your water-hoses are attached to a wall-radiator or even just one of the older "table-top" Zalman Reserators). Heavy overclockers might like the fact that the household radiator holds a very large quantity of water, thus allowing you to remove extreme amounts of heat for long, if not indefinite, periods of time (ie. the time it takes for ALL the water to rise in temperature).


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 29, 2006)

Inventus said:


> Your average fridge or even a deepfreezer simply won't cut it, I'm afraid.
> 
> The compressors used in such household appliances (even the larger ones) are built to tolerate a certain duty-cycle, and as such they will likely burn out VERY quickly, if run continously.



Dude, been there, done that, fixed that issue   I can build my own cascade.. i know what I'm doing


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## Inventus (Sep 29, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez:

Whee, good for you then - Others might not though!

... Know what they are doing that is (which just might be their reason for reading this forum!)

In fact, they might even have trouble understanding what YOU are doing, if this is all you have to say about it...

For starters, are you talking about a Peltier-cascade, an evaporation/compressor-cascade, or are you simply building a garden waterfall for your wife to look at?!? *LOL*

I can build my own rocket-ship and I can even build a house of cards, but what does that have to do with the topic of this thread?!?


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 29, 2006)

Inventus said:


> Dippyskoodlez:
> 
> Whee, good for you then - Others might not though!
> 
> ...



What I'm talking about is what 90% of the community referrs to when talking about "cascades". No, far from the dishwasher soap, or a waterfall.. its a refridgeration cascade often using multiple compressors and gasses, sometimes an autocascade with just one..  

I wouldn't suggest just sticking a pc in a minifridge either   its a pain to get it to fit and the condensor isnt meant to handle 100+w loads.. 

HOWEVER.... a CPU water cooled with a resevoir sitting in a minifridge (assuming its a remotely large res [1gal.+]) a fridge would have absolutely no problems keeping it cool unless oyu are running a 200+w peltier 

I actually did the math with a friend calculating the heat production of my "65w" sempron- AMD rates their CPU's high.. which is also another factor, and even a 65w cpu could maintain a resevoir of 2.5 gallons at a stable temperature for ~10 hours.. so a minifridge would far from be stressed.


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## ex_reven (Sep 30, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> a minifridge would far from be stressed.



phew...i thought i was doomed to contemplate forever  

I want to water cool my pc...but i have no idea what good units are and even then i have no experience as to what i should be paying for it. After learning that I will probably need to accept the fact that im not willing to spend several hundred dollars to enjoy silence.

sucks to be human


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## Inventus (Sep 30, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez:

The size of the reservoir has no influence on the ability to remove heat, at least not in the long term. All you gain by using a larger reservoir is the ability to "overload" the coolingsystem for a longer period of time. In the end (which may be several hours, or even days, depending on the amount of water) your system will start to rise in temperature.

The ONLY factor relevant in the long run (ie. "steady state") is how many watts (thermal) your radiator (or whatever) is able to remove from the water on a continous basis.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about keeping your PC cool, even if running at full load (CPU+GPU!) for extended periods. Thus I personally wouldn't be satisfied with a solution unable to handle the maximum heat-removal needs of the entire system indefinitly.

I don't doubt that some fridges may be able to handle the heat-removal for a single, standard-clocked, CPU, although I've seen numbers as high as 100+ watt (thermal) quoted by the manufacturers of some processors, which would probably exhaust a "minil fridge" (not that I know how such are rated?)

I'm assuming that most people would also like to water-cool at least their GPU (and maybe its RAM and voltage regulator too) and in some cases the chipset (northbridge) and the system RAM as well. Since GPUs these day produce MUCH more heat than most CPUs (as much as 150W, and more than double that, if using SLI and/or including the RAM and voltage regulator) this will bring your heat-removal needs beyond 200-300W, which then becomes difficult to handle by any fridge, especially a "mini fridge".

IMHO it would be stupid not to watercool as many (hot) parts of your PC as possible/reasonable, if you have already spent the money for a radiator and pump etc. On the other hand I fail to see why most people would need cooling their water beyond what can be achieved with a simple radiator. As such my passive Reserator (which isn't even a very efficient design) handles ALL my hot parts without any trouble.


ex_reven:

Apart from some of the ready-to-run watercooling kits available, I'm afraid that it most likely WILL cost you "several hundred dollars" (or more) to install a complete and efficient watercooling system in your PC, at least if you contemplate cooling more than just the CPU.

However, a few things to keep in mind when you consider this:

- Most parts in a watercooling system will last a LONG time (tens of years), without becomming obsolete. Thus, if you make sure to purchase non-model-specific waterblocks (possible for at least the CPU, chipset and RAM, perhaps even for the GPU), you won't have to spend additional money in a long while. I can't tell you how long a good (but not necessarily the most expensive) pump will last, but it is surely MUCH longer than any kind of fan (also you need only one).

- You won't have to go for the very most expensive parts, especially when it comes to waterblocks (unless, of course, you want to do extreme overclocking etc.)

- If you aren't the type who always have to have the very latest CPU etc. You can expect your hardware to last longer (ie. the chance of a CPU burnout etc. is MUCH smaller) with watercooling. Though I realise it is still unlikely to "wear out" any modern hardware, even if using (propper) aircooling.

- If you consider your time valuable, you will most likely spend LESS time keeping your PC running cool. As such watercooling, once installed, is very low-maintenance (change water once or twice a year) compared to aircooling (replace broken fans, remove dust and dirt from heatsinks and inside of case, even replace heatsinks sometimes when dirt buildup is unremovable etc.)

- If your cooling needs aren't very extreme, you might well be happy with one of the aforementioned "ready-to-run" solutions, which are not only cheap but also quite simple to install = Mount the radiator+fan+pump combo-unit in a fan-slot, then mount the waterblock(s) on the CPU (and GPU, if the kit includes two blocks), remove surplus fans, done!

A price guestimate (for a non-kit solution):

pump: $40-50
radiator: $100 (less if non-passive)
waterblocks: $10-30 each (depending on what chip they cool)

Total: $200-400 (depending on how many chips/parts you want to cool, and what kind of radiator you go for etc.)

A kit can be purcased for as little as $50-60, but will typically only cool the CPU, though some kits will cool one addition chip (GPU or chipset) and/or allow you to mount additional block as necessary.


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## Alec§taar (Sep 30, 2006)

Inventus:

Thanks for the VERY informative + detailed set of reads on this note!

I like long/detailed postings, personally... hard to miss with them, if they're done right, & I felt yours are/were, thusfar.

Admittedly though? I am NO cooling expert.

See, currently, I use STRAIGHT air!

(Well, mostly, in addition to "pseudo phase-change" type heatpiped solutions on my CPU & vidcard in their heatsinks) 

Nowadays, & always, but have always been VERY curious about water/hydro/fluid cooling solutions.

I actually COPIED what you wrote in your long posts here into a document... you've 'made the grade' as far as I am concerned on this note, & when I go to shop for my next set of cooling devices (which probably WILL be water based on a future/circa 2009 system (next one I build))?

You're going to be my reference material!

APK

P.S.=> *EDIT PART, & QUESTION:*

Have you ever seen an auxillary transmission OR oil cooler in auto parts stores like NAPA, etc.? Could I use one of those as the radiator?? They are GOOD size (smaller than full car radiator, lol, of course, but good size)... 

These? They only cost like $35-$40... I know, I added them to my automobile! apk


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 30, 2006)

Alec§taar said:


> Have you ever seen an auxillary transmission OR oil cooler in auto parts stores like NAPA, etc.? Could I use one of those as the radiator?? They are GOOD size (smaller than full car radiator, lol, of course, but good size)...
> 
> These? They only cost like $35-$40... I know, I added them to my automobile! apk



Chevette or bonneville heatercore. Very very capable watercooling heatercores.. ~$20-$30. (they are piped to flow like a radiator already, just add barbs and you're good to go.. however, these are fairly hard to mount in a case due to their size)


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 30, 2006)

Inventus said:


> The size of the reservoir has no influence on the ability to remove heat, at least not in the long term. All you gain by using a larger reservoir is the ability to "overload" the coolingsystem for a longer period of time. In the end (which may be several hours, or even days, depending on the amount of water) your system will start to rise in temperature.



If you pump ~65w of heat, how long will it take to raise 2.5 gallons of h2o 1C?

Its simple physics. I'm not using a 12oz resevoir like some people. a 2.5 gallon resevoir *WILL* impact my ability to remove heat. Severely. @ 65w, thats almost _10 hours or more!_ do the MATH. I do believe my minifridge is capable of removing 1C in 10 hours 



> I don't doubt that some fridges may be able to handle the heat-removal for a single, standard-clocked, CPU, although I've seen numbers as high as 100+ watt (thermal) quoted by the manufacturers of some processors, which would probably exhaust a "minil fridge" (not that I know how such are rated?)



Again, assuming you have a 120w CPU, that gives you ~5hours to remove the heat from a 2.5 gallon resevoir. Again, simple physics. This is far from stressful for a mini fridge.




> I'm assuming that most people would also like to water-cool at least their GPU (and maybe its RAM and voltage regulator too) and in some cases the chipset (northbridge) and the system RAM as well. Since GPUs these day produce MUCH more heat than most CPUs (as much as 150W, and more than double that, if using SLI and/or including the RAM and voltage regulator) this will bring your heat-removal needs beyond 200-300W, which then becomes difficult to handle by any fridge, especially a "mini fridge".



If you are cooling more than the CPU via normal mini fridge and it dies you're an idiot for not researching and or learning how to build a water loop properly with a chiller integrated.

If you are cooling 200-300w with a water loop, you're going to need a *serious* radiator system setup. However, a properly re-constructed _chiller _ will be more than capable of handling the heatload.




> IMHO it would be stupid not to watercool as many (hot) parts of your PC as possible/reasonable, if you have already spent the money for a radiator and pump etc. On the other hand I fail to see why most people would need cooling their water beyond what can be achieved with a simple radiator. As such my passive Reserator (which isn't even a very efficient design) handles ALL my hot parts without any trouble.



Why would you buy a phase change cooler? We are overclockers.

I'm getting over +1ghz out of my 1600mhz CPU.

I got 2923mhz out of an Athlon XP air cooled.

I did 3ghz on air with a Venice 3200+.


I want a chiller because these CPU's have room to overclock further.

Also note, * again, simple physics *, copper conducts with less resistance at lower temperatures.


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## Alec§taar (Sep 30, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> If you pump ~65w of heat, how long will it take to raise 2.5 gallons of h2o 1C?
> 
> Its simple physics. I'm not using a 12oz resevoir like some people. a 2.5 gallon resevoir *WILL* impact my ability to remove heat. Severely. @ 65w, thats almost _10 hours or more!_ do the MATH.



I've got to admit: This IS convincing to myself as well... greater volume of fluid to heat up, takes longer to do so.

(Good debate guys, keep it up... Dippy, you're "making the grade" in my docs now too, lol, "huge honor", eh?)



* This is WHY I like this site: You guys have "grown me" making me STRONGER... & I am ALL WITH THAT, lol!

(This site's massively strengthened my knowledge in hardwares, which I let slip over time the past 5-7 years or so, due to software/programming concentration)!

About to "DT Search" index it... all of it, per your discussions here in fact (makes for FAST term searches & all that).

APK

P.S.=> Thanks for tip on heatercore use, I am with saving coins/deadpresidents, by all means... apk


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## beachbum86 (Sep 30, 2006)

I use All polarFlow gear currently. With a couple DD maze 4 blocks for GPU

2x Polarflo TT cpu blocks
2x Ploarflo TT (D4) pumps
2x Danger Den Maze 4 blocks
1x Polarflo TT chipset block
1x Black Ice Extreme 2
1x Black Ice Pro 2
All 1/2" fittings

I lap all blocks to a 3000 grit mirror finish.

Next W/C project I'll probly get the Black Ice GT series.



ex_reven said:


> phew...i thought i was doomed to contemplate forever
> 
> I want to water cool my pc...but i have no idea what good units are and even then i have no experience as to what i should be paying for it. After learning that I will probably need to accept the fact that im not willing to spend several hundred dollars to enjoy silence.
> 
> sucks to be human



For a nice clean looking and performing loop, about $250.00 is a good price for for a non SLI loop. If you have an SLI / Crossfire loop then take that up to $350.00+. TEC will bump it up a lil more. Swiftech and Danger Den have GREAT packages to look at in the $250 Price range.


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## pt (Sep 30, 2006)

just saw near my house today a huge fridge with two engines, too bad i don't know how to make  it to cool the cpu


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 30, 2006)

pt said:


> just saw near my house today a huge fridge with two engines, too bad i don't know how to make  it to cool the cpu



wow a 2 phase fridge? I bet that thing was massive


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## zekrahminator (Sep 30, 2006)

I chill my computer with a TT Soprano case. 
Pros- 
It's suave, it's got two 120mm fans, it's well made, it's sturdy, and the LED power light is shiny.
Cons-
Filters and grills give the front 120mm fan the approximate stregnth of an 80mm fan, the locks are flimsy (and broken), the case is small, and the door gets in the way of CD's sometimes. 

VGA cooling- Arctic Cooling ATISilencer5
Pros- Cold, powerful, cheap, quiet, does what it says it will do, and was easy to install. 
Cons- Makes a clicking sound due to manufactering defect, stock thermal pads may be making my memory overheat a tad, and I can't overclock past 613/613 p). 

CPU cooling- Arctic Cooling Silencer 64 Pro
Pros- Quiet, cool, nice looking, lapped mirror finish. 
Cons- No copper, not overclocker friendly, lack of grill on top allows for cables to get stuck in fan and stop it sometimes.

Edit- My grocery store has a 2-stage fridge, but I haven't seen a phase-change fridge lol.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Sep 30, 2006)

zekrahminator said:


> Edit- My grocery store has a 2-stage fridge, but I haven't seen a phase-change fridge lol.



They are all phase change.... the whole compressor/gas setup is the "phase change"


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## Alec§taar (Sep 30, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> They are all phase change.... the whole compressor/gas setup is the "phase change"



That's EXACTLY right - matter changing state (which is why, in my signature? I can actually "get away" w/ calling heatpipe CPU coolers, phase-change)...



(Technically speaking that is)

APK


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## zekrahminator (Sep 30, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> They are all phase change.... the whole compressor/gas setup is the "phase change"



 I must not be getting enough sleep, I COMPLETELY missed that one. Though, I was thinking about phase change in the way you chill CPU's. Wait, how does that work...solid to liquid to COOL the CPU?


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## xman2007 (Sep 30, 2006)

arctic cooler freezer64 pro with 1x90mm intake blowing onto cpu and 1x120mm exhaust fan, seems to do the trick for me so far but am going to get another 120mm intake fan and possibly 2x60mm intakes to blow onto hdd's


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## pt (Sep 30, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> wow a 2 phase fridge? I bet that thing was massive



it had more than 2mt height, and 1,5m large


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## Boneface (Sep 30, 2006)

Heres a pic of my cooling lol the other end is at my window


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## zekrahminator (Sep 30, 2006)

Dude that must be awesome in the middle of say, Winter .


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## Boneface (Sep 30, 2006)

zekrahminator said:


> Dude that must be awesome in the middle of say, Winter .



It is and being in Ontario it gets nice and cold...just have to figure out somemore things to make sure i dont get condensation on anything there is a vent beside my tower that use the AC in the summer to cool it down...but winter is here so need the heat so i covered the vent over and stuck the other end at the window


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## trog100 (Oct 1, 2006)

i have most of the bits to water cool my rig.. what stopped me was all the case drilling to mount the twin fan radiator and the need to buy one of these to cool my grfx card.. 

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19692&vpn=GPU-4000&manufacture=Danger Den

it runs cool enough now.. just a little noisy and gets full of dust.. and before someone says use filters it aint practical.. low speed quiet fans and filters dont mix..

trog


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## beachbum86 (Oct 1, 2006)

trog100 said:


> i have most of the bits to water cool my rig.. *what stopped me was all the case drilling to mount the twin fan radiator* and the need to buy one of these to cool my grfx card..
> 
> http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19692&vpn=GPU-4000&manufacture=Danger Den
> 
> ...



If you dont want to drill, then get a rad mounting bracket. Just put it on the back of your case. 
Link HERE 

The tyee is only $125.00 direct from Danger Den's website HERE and yes the ship to canada. 

This guy mounted a Triple rad to the rear-


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## JC316 (Oct 1, 2006)

Added some fan I found in my "junkyard stash", it turned out to be a really high speed fan. So now I have 2 80mm intake fans, 1 120mm exaust and 1 80mm exaust.


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## Ketxxx (Oct 1, 2006)

the key to any cooling is to strike that balance. and to do that you just have to do a lot of research into fans. generally 120mm fans that kick 80cfm or so have low noise output @ full speed (30-35dba, for the fans made with decent components) as for 80mm fans....they dont particularly need to be loud, their just therefor a constant fresh breeze of air for the other fans to use. ideal deployment of 80mm fans are side intake.

for the record, most stock coolers suck and are loud.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Oct 1, 2006)

zekrahminator said:


> I must not be getting enough sleep, I COMPLETELY missed that one. Though, I was thinking about phase change in the way you chill CPU's. Wait, how does that work...solid to liquid to COOL the CPU?



It actually goes from liquid to gas. Hard to pump a solid through a pipe


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## Inventus (Oct 1, 2006)

*Thermodynamics 101*

My dear Dippyskoodles,

I'm sad to say it, but it is apparantly YOU who haven't done your thermodynamic calculations properly. And yes, it is indeed "basic" stuff.

So... Please refrain from accusing me further of not doing my math and/or not knowing my thermodynamics. So far it is YOU who have repeatedly failed to use proper theory and/or calculations. As such, my knowledge of thermo- as well as fluid-dynamics is at least at university-level.

I can highly recommend the book "Thermofluids", if you feel the need to verify my claims! It should be available at Amazon, and isn't too hard to read (assuming you have a basic knowledge of physics, math and thermodynamics, of course).




Dippyskoodlez said:


> Its simple physics. I'm not using a 12oz resevoir like some people. a 2.5 gallon resevoir *WILL* impact my ability to remove heat. Severely. @ 65w, thats almost _10 hours or more!_ do the MATH. I do believe my minifridge is capable of removing 1C in 10 hours



What you apparantly fail to understand, is the fact that HEAT IN = HEAT OUT, in ANY steady-state (equilibrium) sysem, which is what you will reach, sooner or later (as your temperatures would otherwise go towards infinity!)

Thus, even if you have an entire ocean of coolingwater and your CPU adds a mere 1W of heat-energy per hour, at some point the water will reach a temperature precisly sufficient for it to give off that same 1W of energy. This is called "equilibrium" or "steady state".

Your example somehow assume that you only add those ~65W of heat ONCE, and you then have 10 hours (due to the increased water capacity) to remove that energy. However, you fail to include the 10 X ~65W = 650W added in the MEAN TIME!!!

So, with danger of repeating myself, the ammount of water ONLY decides how long it takes to reach "equilibrium" (ie. the point where your cooling water no longer changes temperature).

Once again, in case you missed it the first time, what DOES decide the ammount of heat you can remove, is ultimately the efficiency (which mainly comes down to the size) of your radiator and the temperature difference between the radiator and the ambient air (or whatever kind of media your radiator is immersed in). Specifically, considering an evaporation cooler (since you seem so fond of refrigerators), the efficiency (ie. heat-removal per time-unit) is ONLY decided by the size of its radiator and how much higher than your room air temperature it is capable of keeping this radiator.

You will note that the reason why the evaporation cooler is typically better than your water/radiator cooler, is its ability to raise its radiator temperature beyond that of the water, whereas a water-only system operates its radiator at the same temperature (well, a bit below actually) as the water itself.

Even using a "cascade" (about which I admittedly have limited knowledge), I can only assume there will only be so many possible "steps" (cascades), as you would need working-fluids with ever-higher evaporation points (which would typically also require ever higher compression-ratios to operate). I'm guessing your average "cascade" includes just the water and a single (possibly two) evaporation steps (if I understand the concept of "cascades" correctly, not that you have been very informative about what you mean by this concept throughout? The word "cascades" after all, is used in a lot of different contexts, and I've so far not stumbled upon it in the 10+ books about thermodynamics, fluiddynamics and similar topics that I've read recently... But then again, nor have I seen any use of "Gallons", since "Liters" are prefered by the scientific community.)




Dippyskoodlez said:


> If you are cooling 200-300w with a water loop, you're going to need a *serious* radiator system setup. However, a properly re-constructed _chiller _ will be more than capable of handling the heatload.



This is one thing you ARE correct about. This follows from the theory as stated above, since your "chiller" (re-constructed or not) will operate its radiator at much higher temperatures than a water-only radiator. Again the only two significant factors are the effective area of the radiator and the temperature difference between it and its surroundings.

Thus, if you have no problem with using a radiator big enough to remove the heat you need removed (however much it may be), I see no reason to add the complexity, failure-risk and noise of a compressor-based evaporation cooler. However, if small size is important, this would be one possible solution. Peltier elements would be another, much quieter, simpler and smaller but much more power hungry, solution.




Dippyskoodlez said:


> Why would you buy a phase change cooler? We are overclockers.
> [...]
> I want a chiller because these CPU's have room to overclock further.



Oh, and who would "we" be? This forum, as far as I can read, is about "overclocking AND cooling", who said you need to do both to post here (but perhaps you are using boolean logic?!?) Personally I would MUCH rather purchase a faster processor, than run the risk of overclocking the one I have. Also, my PC currently develops less than 10dB of noise when running at full load, try doing THAT with a compressor!

This, of couse, is a matter of taste, which is why I (repeatedly) make sure to include any overclockers reading my posts, by noting (typically in paranthesis) when and how my conclusions etc. may differ if you overclock.

Oh, and once again: The ONLY reason you might argue that a "chiller" will allow you to "overclock further" is the fact that you will be able to use a smaller radiator. Thus, for any "chiller" (compression-based evaporation cooler aka. "heatpump") you might be able to produce, I could build a water-only system with the same capacity, even if it might require an unreasonably large radiator (this, of course, assuming that you, being a good little overclocker, will clock the CPU to such extent as to have it operate well above room temperature).




Dippyskoodlez said:


> Also note, * again, simple physics *, copper conducts with less resistance at lower temperatures.



Erhm, well, yees. It is true that copper is better than, say, aluminium (which is what I assume you are refering to?) when it comes to cooling applications (not that I am aware of having stated otherwise?)

However, I fail to understand what you mean by "at lower temperatures"? AFAIK copper remain the better choice at any, reasonable, range of temperatures?

But there is more to it than heat-conduction. As such copper also have a smaller heat-capacity than aluminium, further improving its "score" as a good material for cooling applications.

All this is the reason why most high-end radiators and water-blocks are made from copper, while the cheaper ones are often made from aluminium (which is, not surprisingly, cheaper). I would be the first to purchase a copper-based passive radiator, but so far I've not seen any such available (at least not specifically for PC cooling purposes, but I DO have several designs for such, which I'm eagerly trying to put into production...)


Regards,

Inventus.


P.S. Could you perhaps try to sound just a tad less arrogant and better-knowing in your next post, if any. It really does become quite tiresome in the long run, especially when you are so often wrong about these basic thermodynamic issues.


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## ex_reven (Oct 1, 2006)

Inventus pwns :|

is it possible that i merely watercool my cpu?
the fan on my cpu is the ONLY thing that ever seems to make noise...

or is this a dumb idea? (the watercooling kit may be capable of doing more than one component with no issue for example...but is a kit that only cools cpu cheaper???)


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## beachbum86 (Oct 1, 2006)

Battle of the increasingly large POSTS !!!!








ex_reven said:


> is it possible that i merely watercool my cpu?
> the fan on my cpu is the ONLY thing that ever seems to make noise...
> 
> or is this a dumb idea? (the watercooling kit may be capable of doing more than one component with no issue for example...but is a kit that only cools cpu cheaper???)



Yes, usually. 

A single water block, wether it be for the CPU or GPU will be about $50.
So for every block added to a kit, just add another $50-$70 for the block, Extra tubing, larger radiaor and/or larger pump.

HERE is a Swiftech kit for $200 that is CPU only, with a single 120mm rad and pump integrated into a bay res.

The upgraded kit Still only cools the CPU BUT, it is upgraded from the apogee to the STORM - Single rad to a DUAL and upgrades the res/pump to a nice D4/D5 pump all for just $60 more.


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## ex_reven (Oct 1, 2006)

lol, long posts are interesting, but when theyr all about the same thing i really only read every fifth word...

"understand...steady-state....equilibrium....evaporation...compression-ratios...cascade"
*yawn*


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## beachbum86 (Oct 1, 2006)

Check out the LINKS page on my website for some realy great watercooling and modding supply sites.


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## ex_reven (Oct 1, 2006)

i think this would be an interesting starting kit for me...

http://www.jw.com.au/products_close...index=Cooling+Products&subindex=Water+Cooling

does anyone else express similar sentiments?


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## zekrahminator (Oct 1, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> It actually goes from liquid to gas. Hard to pump a solid through a pipe



 Yes, I know how fridges work (I'll describe it with the help of MSPaint if you want me to), I was just wondering how phase change coolers work on CPU's.


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## beachbum86 (Oct 1, 2006)

ex_reven said:


> i think this would be an interesting starting kit for me...
> 
> http://www.jw.com.au/products_close...index=Cooling+Products&subindex=Water+Cooling
> 
> does anyone else express similar sentiments?



NO WAY!!!

I know of a Air cooling solution that beats that. That w/c'ing kit is junk.  The Noctua CPU cooler, cools better than all low end w/c'ing kits and is just about on par with some of the middle/high end kits.

Noctua LINK<<
All three<<

If you are going to go water, go BIG. Otherwise its just a wast of your money, if you do small water then BIG air will usually be toe-to-toe with it. By small i dont mean 1/4", i mean cheap kits like the 5.25" bay kits and koolance, Thermaltake, coolermaster.....  If you want 1/4" then look into some of the german componies like innovatek. THESE guys sell alot of it.


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## ex_reven (Oct 2, 2006)

beachbum86 said:


> NO WAY!!!
> 
> I know of a Air cooling solution that beats that. That w/c'ing kit is junk.  The Noctua CPU cooler, cools better than all low end w/c'ing kits and is just about on par with some of the middle/high end kits.
> 
> ...



It looks pretty good. By some of the stuff i read it looks like a really quiet cooler. Il have to look for more reviews before i decide to buy though...


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## Dippyskoodlez (Oct 2, 2006)

Inventus said:


> Even using a "cascade" (about which I admittedly have limited knowledge), I can only assume there will only be so many possible "steps" (cascades), as you would need working-fluids with ever-higher evaporation points (which would typically also require ever higher compression-ratios to operate). I'm guessing your average "cascade" includes just the water and a single (possibly two) evaporation steps (if I understand the concept of "cascades" correctly, not that you have been very informative about what you mean by this concept throughout? The word "cascades" after all, is used in a lot of different contexts, and I've so far not stumbled upon it in the 10+ books about thermodynamics, fluiddynamics and similar topics that I've read recently... But then again, nor have I seen any use of "Gallons", since "Liters" are prefered by the scientific community.)



Not being familiar with what is referred to as a "cascade" by this community, it shows your inability to argue with the extreme cooling types  

A cascade is a multi gas phase change system. I'm sure you know all about these since you apparently "follow up on your thermodynamics". But can you tell me what gasses are used? Probably not.



Inventus said:


> Once again, in case you missed it the first time, what DOES decide the ammount of heat you can remove, is ultimately the efficiency (which mainly comes down to the size) of your radiator and the temperature difference between the radiator and the ambient air (or whatever kind of media your radiator is immersed in).


Now, if only you would consider the fact that the 2.5 gallon resevoir BECOMES the resevoir in this case... You will have to recalculate all your ideas. Seriously, think it out much?  Chillers have been in use for years. They do work.

If my ideas are "so off", please, enlighten me with some of your knowledge, giving me some proof of this using some NUMBERS instead of FUD?




Inventus said:


> Oh, and who would "we" be? This forum, as far as I can read, is about "overclocking AND cooling", who said you need to do both to post here (but perhaps you are using boolean logic?!?) Personally I would MUCH rather purchase a faster processor, than run the risk of overclocking the one I have.


"we" as in the overclocking community. Who else?

As for faster CPU, please, let me know where you can buy a 3ghz athlon XP or even 3+ghz Athlon 64. Perhaps a 4ghz Conroe? Core 2 duo if you arent familiar with the terms.



Inventus said:


> The ONLY reason you might argue that a "chiller" will allow you to "overclock further" is the fact that you will be able to use a smaller radiator.


Wow dude. Ever see liquid nitrogen or dry ice on a CPU? Go read up on your *superconductance*.



Inventus said:


> But there is more to it than heat-conduction. As such copper also have a smaller heat-capacity than aluminium, further improving its "score" as a good material for cooling applications.


This argument has nothing to due with thermal conductance. Its a well known fact copper > Aluminum.  This is *ELECTRICAL* conductance. you DO *realize you run electricity through the CPU, right?*



> P.S. Could you perhaps try to sound just a tad less arrogant and better-knowing in your next post, if any. It really does become quite tiresome in the long run, especially when you are so often wrong about these basic thermodynamic issues.



p.s. could you learn what you're arguing about, rather than making comments on things that are so far from what I said?


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## ex_reven (Oct 2, 2006)

excuse me, can we both stop argueing?
both of your posts are increasingly off topic, delving further into 'thermodynamic theory'
this thread is about your heat removal hardware and why you think its great, as well as a chance to check out other peoples hardware and get their opinion to broaden your own knowledge of hardware rather than just limiting it to a few brand names or models.

so instead of continuing the arguement two people why dont you 'contribute' something of substance so that others can become involved. This is the base idea of an online community...


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## Dia01 (Oct 2, 2006)

CPU Cooling - Coolit Freezone
GPU Cooling - Gainward Stock HSF
HDD Cooling - CoolDrive 6
Chipset Cooling - Coolermaster Blue Ice
Case Cooling - 4 X 80mm Inlet Fans, 2 X 80mm Top Exhaust Fans & 2 X 80mm PSU Exhaust  
                    Fans, Vantec PCI Slot Twin Fans


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## Inventus (Oct 2, 2006)

Consider "the argument" stopped (on my behalf at least).

(Dippyskoodlez: I'll see if I can find time to send a private message to you, with the "proof" you want, as well as my response to your latest load of misinformation and misunderstandings.)


ex_reven:

I have no specific experience with the water-kit you link to, however it will most likely be a quite reasonable solution to cool your CPU, unless you want to overclock to extreme degrees (as people in this forum apparantly assume automatically?).

If you, like me, prefer a nice and quiet PC, in preference to those extra Hz, I see no problem with using this (and it WILL be quieter than ANY fan-based solution, while stille keeping the CPU cooler than any but the most noisy fan/sink combo).

You will most likely also be able to add more blocks (such as one for your GPU/VRAM) later on. Since this kit doesn't appear to be of the "factory sealed" kind, it should be a simple matter of adding a bit of tubing and the extra block.

If the radiator/fan doesn't keep your system cool enough (be it before or after you add one or more extra blocks), you can always purchase an extra 120mm or 80mm radiator and a fan for it, adding this in the same manner.


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## Alec§taar (Oct 2, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> Its a well known fact copper > Aluminum.  This is *ELECTRICAL* conductance.



Well, that's SORT of a "dual edged sword"!

I say this, because though Copper (being more dense than Aluminum) can DRAW HEAT AWAY from an object better/faster (almost like how POROSITY works drawing liquids up from spills)& thus, is superior in heat draw?

Copper is poorer than Aluminum @ shedding heat...

This is one subject I got thoroughly "indoctrinated" (burned, lol, in other words because I was convinced Copper had Aluminum "whooped" on ALL levels in) on years ago in another forums, & it stuck with me...

APK


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## Beomagi (Oct 2, 2006)

*ex_reven* - on the ttake bigwater
Horrible system for the price.
The pump is weak, the block is sub-optimal.

lower cooling performance compared to high end air
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/16watercooling_18.html

I bought the TT res when I wan making one of my watercooling setups. The reservoir is probably the most constrictive wc component you can imagine. see, it's meant to be a 1/4 inch setup. but the inlet/outlet barbs are probably half that in internal diameter. 

If you want a good water cooling kit, first, i'd recommend a 3/8 inch kit. It's easier to find parts for compared to 1/2 inch, and it's higher performace compared to 1/4.
Second, every component matters. Pump - you need high flow, but if the pump cant handle a high back pressure, flow will be slow. block - low pressure pump, low back pressure block (e.g. maze 4 gpu block). Strong pump, high performance block (e.g. swiftec storm - impingement). 

for a kit, i'd recommend this.

It's a bit more expensive, but it's worth it. 

using this, I run my Pentium D at 4.51GHz 24/7, and rarely see it break 55C.

As for the thread's purpose, A water cooler is as cost effective as long as it's mounting brackets last you - if you upgrade to am3, or kentsfield later perhaps another system or 2 farther ahead, you really stretch it's worth. 

Mounting brackets really depend on the blocks - the swiftech apogee that comes with that kit should be well supported.


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## trog100 (Oct 2, 2006)

the problem with water cooling my setup would be the grfx card.. just water cooling the gpu would not be good enough.. the entire card needs cooling.. and even then i think some case fans would still be needed to cool the general mobo and other stuff like memory.. 

water cooling aint all that its made out to be.. or that easy to do if things are done properly..

the only real downside with air is all the crud it collects.. 

trog


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## Dippyskoodlez (Oct 2, 2006)

Alec§taar said:


> Well, that's SORT of a "dual edged sword"!
> 
> I say this, because though Copper (being more dense than Aluminum) can DRAW HEAT AWAY from an object better/faster (almost like how POROSITY works drawing liquids up from spills)& thus, is superior in heat draw?
> 
> ...



iirc, copper beats aluminum in *this application*, comparing directly will definatly cause headaches, as fin placement, design, etc causes differences with different metals- and its rare to find identical heatsinks of opposite material...

I still stand that a copper heatsink is better than an aluminum   Look at the SLK Vs ALX series. ALX was always a tag-along in performance, always losing to the SLK.


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## pt (Oct 2, 2006)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> iirc, copper beats aluminum in *this application*, comparing directly will definatly cause headaches, as fin placement, design, etc causes differences with different metals- and its rare to find identical heatsinks of opposite material...
> 
> I still stand that a copper heatsink is better than an aluminum   Look at the SLK Vs ALX series. ALX was always a tag-along in performance, always losing to the SLK.



they should be used together, to make a better cooler


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## Beomagi (Oct 2, 2006)

pt said:


> they should be used together, to make a better cooler



wont the cu/al boundary lower performance?


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## pt (Oct 2, 2006)

Beomagi said:


> wont the cu/al boundary lower performance?



nop, copper gets hot faster and aluminium spread it faster


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## Beomagi (Oct 2, 2006)

/enlightened


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## ex_reven (Oct 3, 2006)

> Copper (being more dense than Aluminum) can DRAW HEAT AWAY from an object better/faster...
> 
> Copper is poorer than Aluminum @ shedding heat...



Is this why i see cpu coolers with a copper base with vanes leading up to large surface area aluminum fins???



> I bought the TT res when I wan making one of my watercooling setups. The reservoir is probably the most constrictive wc component you can imagine. see, it's meant to be a 1/4 inch setup. but the inlet/outlet barbs are probably half that in internal diameter.



OMG i never thought such a simple process (cooling something down)  could be such a pain in the ass  lol...its gonna take me ages to decide on what i want, and even then i might not even be convinced enough to buy it *sigh* 

EDIT: WOOOOT 50 posts lol


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## Beomagi (Oct 3, 2006)

Kit i pointed out - the swiftech - is pretty easy to set up. The mcp 350 pump is decent should you want to put other components inline.

Asetec also has a kit at the same price level.

you CAN buy components seperately, though you'd have to research which components can work well together for your purposes. I suggest sticking to higher end kits. lower end kits like the gigabyte 3d1 do cool well, but their upgradability is limited, and construction shoddy. corsair nautilus isn't bad, either - should be really easy to add too.


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## ex_reven (Oct 3, 2006)

Beomagi said:


> corsair nautilus isn't bad, either - should be really easy to add too.



Manufacturer of the pump on the nautilus states that its about 24-26 decibels from 2 feet away. Isnt this a bit loud? 

I can imagine the noise of a pump being somewhat more annoying than a fan.


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## Beomagi (Oct 3, 2006)

Depends on how sensitive you are to noise.

Reviews do mention it, right before they recommend it. It's not perfect but it's lower priced water.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Oct 3, 2006)

pt said:


> nop, copper gets hot faster and aluminium spread it faster



Hes talking about the insability to merge the two metals, creating an interface conflict... similar to the CPU->heastink scenario


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## Inventus (Oct 3, 2006)

*Watercooling hardware suggestions*

The C-Systems CSP Magnum pump is VERY low-noise (at least if mounted in soft material and after having run for some hours) while providing a surprisingly high water-flow and -pressure. Also it connects to a standard (although high-wattage) fan-connector and provides a tacho-output (ie. you can monitor pump RPM through your usual fan-monitor software, possibly even regulate its speed!) It can be seen/purchased here:

http://www.sharkacomputers.com/ccspmagco12v.html


GPU water-blocks which also cover and cool the VRAM (possibly other relevant chips as well, though likely NOT the voltage-regulator), can be seen here (note however, that I've been told that Innovatek have "stolen" this design from some other company which should make better versions of this kind of multi-block, I forget their name though):

http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/assets/s2dmain.html?http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/
(Warning: German site. Their products should be available in other, english, web-shops though?)

Note that extra care should be taken when mounting a "mult-block" of this kind, since there may well be minor gaps between the block and some of the many chips it tries to cover. It may be wise to use increased amounts of thermal paste, or even better some kind of (thick) thermal tape/padding, to ensure proper contact and heat-conduction between the block and the chips (notably the GPU itself). Also note that this kind of GPU block is VERY specific, typically usable with only one specefik graphic card (or at most a few similar models from the same manufacturer).


About the copper vs. aluminium issue:

It is my clear impression that Copper is superior to aluminium with regard to all cooling-related properties. This is confirmed by a quick look at my technical litterature about thermodynamic properties of various metals, which states that copper has about twice the heat-transfer ability as aluminum, while it has a somewhat smaller (which, AFAIK, should be better) heat-capacity.

This leaves the question of some kind of difference in the surface micro-structure (ie. aluminum might have a microscopic structure that allows for better heat-transfer to/from air and/or water). Since most radiators are surface-treated (anodized or painted) I shouldn't think this a relevant (or at least not a major) factor though?

Anyway, I thought we were not supposed to discus thermodynamic theories in this thread?!? - Not that I don't like to do so personally


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## Beomagi (Oct 3, 2006)

For the gpu watercooling I suggest using individual ram sinks, and a smaller core block. The all encompassing sinks do a poor job on memory - that sticky tape they use is far from optimal. e.g. swiftech MCW60 comes with smaller sinks for the memory. You can use thermal adhesive to affix the ram sinks, which cools better than the tape.


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## Inventus (Oct 4, 2006)

Beomagi:

Are you really saying that passive sinks (air) will cool the VRAM better than a "combo-block" (water)?

Unfortunately, my gfx-card doesn't have any internal temp-monitoring, so I've never really known how well my combo-block works, just that I can overclock both the GPU and its RAM a decent bit (which may not have much to say about the water-block at all).

When you say "sticky-tape", do you mean "thermal tape" (usually very thin, sticky on one or two sides)?

I ask because I've seen at least one other kind of thermal "tape", which might not be sticky at all, but it had some thickness (a milimeter, perhaps even two or more) and looked more like a kind of "foam pad". This was what I thought would be a good idea to use to ensure proper contact, but of course only if it conducts heats reasonably well. However, since I've not (yet) tried to use this with my combo-block (the Innovatek kind), and I don't have any internal temp. probes anyway, I really wouldn't know how well it performs.

I just have a hard time believing that any kind of small, passive heatsink would get anywhere near a water-block, even if the contact wasn't too good?!?

If you (or anyone else) know of a good "all-water" solution for recent gfx cards, I'd love to hear about it. It will soon be time for me to upgrade my Radeon 9800 to something a bit more modern, and it is my understanding that such cards need a lot of cooling for their voltage-regulators, something wich isn't cooled by those combo-blocks, nor the passive swifttech heatsinks. I've seen volt-reg. only blocks, but then I would need at least three seperate blocks for a single gfx card (GPU + VRAM + volt-reg.) - Seems a bit over-complicated (not to mention flow-restricting) to me?!?


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## infrared (Oct 4, 2006)

Swiftech Apogee waterblock
Swiftech 240x120mm radiator
Swiftech MCP655 pump
Swiftech Mini-reservior
1/2" tubing throughout.

*the IHS on my P4 is lapped 

My P4 @ stock 3.2ghz 1.4v idle: 28c load: 36c
My P4 @ 4.7ghz 1.65v idle: 32c load: 42c

I wanna get a 200w peltier for when i get my Core 2 Duo E6400. I'm also trying to find a way of watercooling the northbridge on my P5W DH Deluxe, but the heatpipe system they use will make it difficult. 

My 2 x850's are cooled with Arctic cooling Silencer 5 rev. 2's. and voltmodded to 1.6v vgpu.


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## Beomagi (Oct 4, 2006)

Inventus said:


> Beomagi:
> 
> Are you really saying that passive sinks (air) will cool the VRAM better than a "combo-block" (water)?



These all-over blocks rarely cover the voltage reglators - that's not their target. Even when they do, they wont touch them. The tape or foam they use - least the one's I've seen, is really lame, and made no difference to memory. It's usually too thick to allow good conduction.


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## Inventus (Oct 4, 2006)

Beomagi said:


> These all-over blocks rarely cover the voltage reglators - that's not their target. Even when they do, they wont touch them. The tape or foam they use - least the one's I've seen, is really lame, and made no difference to memory. It's usually too thick to allow good conduction.



My multi-block didn't "come with" any such tape. Rather it has raised areas for each chip it covers, so as to take into account the difference in height of the GPU versus the RAM chips. I then used the usual thermal paste (Arctic-silver) on the raised areas, in an attempt at providing the best possible thermal contact when I mounted it on the gfx card.

Still, I guess it is likely that some of the chips aren't in very good contact with the raised areas on the block, which was why I wanted to know if anyone knew if those "thermal pads" you can buy (which have some thickness to them and which can be compressed to some extent, allowing them to "take up the slack") are any good at conducting heat? If you experience is indicative of all kinds and brands of such "thermal pads", I guess I would be better off using thermal paste or thermal glue to "fill in the gaps".

I realise (in fact I think I mentioned this earlier) that the voltage-regulator isn't covered by multi-blocks. If no such "cover-all" solution currently exists, I guess the only solution then is to use all of three (or four) seperate blocks (one for the GPU, one for the voltage-regulator and one or two for the RAM).

I wouldn't like to rely on passive heatsinks to cool my VRAM, especially not since I won't be upgrading my gfx-cooling unless I purchase a new, high-performance, card (or a SLI solution), in which case I assume the VRAM is likely to need active cooling more than ever. But certainly I will be looking into voltage-regulator blocks, since it is my clear impression that these tend to get VERY hot on most recent gfx cards.

It is just that I find it overly complex, having to mount so many seperate blocks on the gfx card(s)...


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## ex_reven (Oct 8, 2006)

Watercooling = $250 Australian dollars
Bank = $2000 
Me = :'(


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## strick94u (Oct 8, 2006)

all air here with heat pipes on cpu/gpu working on a small a/c unit that just cools incoming air but if its too big I will go with water


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## ex_reven (Oct 9, 2006)

im gonna custom make my own case 

i cut some aluminium today
its gonna be 25cm tall, 35cm wide and 26cm deep 
( smallest i could cram my Intel 775 Socket Mobo into with 15 cm headroom for neon lighting and airflow  )

Its gonna have at least 6 120mm fans for nice near silent airflow,
i bought a new antec smartpower 480watt
and a Thermaltake blue orb II

     
and omg i found the most sexy metal mesh to put on the sides, its solid but it still allows you to see in


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