# Alleged ASUS AMD X570 Motherboard Price-list Paints a Horror Story



## btarunr (Jun 11, 2019)

A reliable source based in Taiwan shared with us the price-list of upcoming AMD Ryzen 3000 X570 chipset motherboards by leading manufacturer ASUS. These MSRP prices in U.S. Dollars paint a grim picture of these boards being significantly pricier than previous-generation motherboards based on the AMD X470 chipset. We already got hints of AMD X570 motherboards being pricey when MSI CEO Charles Chiang, who is known for not mincing his words in public, made it clear that the industry is no longer seeing AMD as a value-alternative second-fiddle brand to Intel, and that AMD will use its performance leadership to command premium pricing for these motherboards, even though across generations, pricing of AMD processors are going to remain flat. The Ryzen 7 3700X, for example, is launching at exactly the same $329 launch price as the Ryzen 7 2700X.

Even MSI CEO Chiang's statement couldn't prepare us for the prices we're seeing for the ASUS motherboard lineup. The cheapest AMD X570 motherboard from ASUS is the Prime X570-P, which is priced at USD $159.99. Its slightly bolstered twin, the TUF Gaming X570-Plus will go for $169.99. A variant of this exact board with integrated Wi-Fi 6 will be priced at $184.99. This is where things get crazy. The Prime X570-Pro, which is the spiritual-successor of the $150 Prime X470-Pro, will command a whopping $249.99 price-tag, or a $100 (66 percent) increase! The cheapest ROG (Republic of Gamers) product, the ROG Strix X570-F Gaming, will ship with an HEDT-like $299.99 price. This is where the supposed "high-end" segment begins.



 

 

 




The ROG Strix X570-E Gaming is a slightly spruced-up Strix-F, with a handful more connectivity options, and an extra M.2 slot. This board will be priced at $329.99. And we're still with the "tier-two" ROG Strix family. The ROG Crosshair VIII Hero is what you'd want for the premium ROG experience, and a premium CPU VRM solution. This board is priced at $359.99, over $100 more than the Crosshair VII Hero. Need Wi-Fi? Pull out another Jackson for the $379.99 ROG Crosshair VIII Hero Wi-Fi, which comes with 802.11ax WLAN. 

Record-seeking OC wizards who want to push the Ryzen 9-series processors, such as the $749 Ryzen 9 3950X to their limits, will have to spend almost the same amount of money on the motherboard, with the ROG Crosshair VIII Formula, which at $699.99, is pricier than even certain ROG Rampage Extreme products from Intel's HEDT platform. In all, AMD, like any for-profit company on the planet, wants to monetize its performance-leadership over Intel to the fullest. 

The reasons for these price increases could be many, besides AMD simply wanting to turn its performance leadership into cash. For one, the AMD X570 chipset is a big and hot (~15W TDP) piece of silicon AMD designed in-house, with a large PCI-Express gen 4.0 switching fabric, and more downstream connectivity than the ASMedia-sourced X470 "Promontory." This chipset needs a much more capable cooling solution than what the X470 needed, including in many cases, an active fan-heatsink. AMD has also dialed up the electrical and physical requirements, with a stronger CPU VRM specification, possibly more than four PCB layers for improved memory wiring, and external PCI-Express gen 4.0 re-driver and lane segmentation components that could be expensive on account of being new. 

To most PC buyers, though, there are alternatives within AMD. As we mentioned earlier, processor pricing over generations hasn't increased. The 3700X is priced on par with the launch price of the 2700X it succeeds, and the Ryzen 5 3600 is being launched at the same $199 as the Ryzen 5 2600. You can very much do pair these processors with motherboards based on the older AMD X470 and B450 chipset motherboards, which are stocked up plenty in the market, are priced reasonably, and a majority of models support the USB BIOS Flashback feature, letting you update their UEFI firmware to the latest versions that add 3rd generation Ryzen support, without needing to borrow an older Ryzen chip from a friend. You lose out on PCI-Express gen 4.0 and additional M.2 slots, but that's a compromise you'll have to make. Consider the low-power 400-series chipsets not needing fan-heatsinks to be a sweetener.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

If the cheapest asus x570 motherboard is $160 then I consider it okay. The cheapest asus x470 I can find around is $132. The only issue here is that stupid fan.









						ASUS TUF X470-Plus Gaming AM4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Newegg.com
					

Buy ASUS TUF X470-Plus Gaming AM4 AMD X470 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.1 HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				




ASUS TUF X470-Plus Gaming = $132
ASUS Prime X570-P = $160


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## biffzinker (Jun 11, 2019)

btarunr said:


> the AMD X570 chipset is a big and hot (~15W TDP) piece of silicon AMD designed in-house


Supposedly the X570 die is the same I/O die repurposed from Ryzen.


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## muSPK (Jun 11, 2019)

I heard that some x470 and b450 boards will get PCIe 4.0 support, some already do, due to an earlier BIOS update. So that would be the best budget friendly option.


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

muSPK said:


> I heard that some x470 and b450 boards will get PCIe 4.0 support, some already do, due to an earlier BIOS update. So that would be the best budget friendly option.



It seems that update was blocked by amd itself.


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## Zubasa (Jun 11, 2019)

Asus sells expensive stuff, what a surprise.


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## Tomorrow (Jun 11, 2019)

Metroid said:


> If the cheapest asus x570 motherboard is $160 then I consider it okay. The cheapest x470 I can find around is $130 and is not asus, asus cheapest x470 is around $150. The only issue here is that stupid fan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed. These prices are mostly what i expected them to be. The only suprise here is the Formula at 700$. For what i ask? Waterblock? Aorus Xtreme is supposed to be 600$ and by the looks of it has more features, better connectivity and massively better VRM than Formula.

On the low end im actually suprised. I feared no X570 board will be under 200$ but if ASUS has some models under that the others will defenetly have such models too because historically ASUS has been more expensive with their motherboards than others.


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## medi01 (Jun 11, 2019)

btarunr said:


> The cheapest AMD X570 motherboard from ASUS is the Prime X570-P, which is priced at USD $159.99


Hardly a shocking price for a "premium chipset" mainboard.


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

Tomorrow said:


> Indeed. These prices are mostly what i expected them to be. The only suprise here is the Formula at 700$. For what i ask? Waterblock? Aorus Xtreme is supposed to be 600$ and by the looks of it has more features, better connectivity and massively better VRM than Formula.
> 
> On the low end im actually suprised. I feared no X570 board will be under 200$ but if ASUS has some models under that the others will defenetly have such models too because historically ASUS has been more expensive with their motherboards than others.



If asus itself is starting at $160 then I might consider it, there might be worthy cheaper x570 motherboards after all, at the moment i'm eyeing that asrock b450M-pro for $80.









						ASRock B450M Steel Legend AM4 Micro ATX Motherboard - Newegg.com
					

Buy ASRock B450M Steel Legend AM4 AMD Promontory B450 SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX AMD Motherboard with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com


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## Imsochobo (Jun 11, 2019)

medi01 said:


> Hardly a shocking price for a "premium chipset" mainboard.



with premium design, vrm, addin things like nics, sound and god knows what.
It was way better than feared!
Looke like 170$ for my X570M pro4 from asrock


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

Imsochobo said:


> with premium design, vrm, addin things like nics, sound and god knows what.
> It was way better than feared!
> Looke like 170$ for my X570M pro4 from asrock



I hope it will be cheaper than that, $130 is a good deal.


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## Imsochobo (Jun 11, 2019)

Metroid said:


> I hope it will be cheaper than that, $130 is a good deal.



I set my expectations at certain points off worst acceptable 
Then I always get positively surprised.


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## phill (Jun 11, 2019)

Personally if this is how it will be, this will only limit the number of people to buy the newer CPUs or stick with older motherboards..  Seems a very poor choice for Asus....  Very sad and what I'd consider a bad move from Asus for AMD....


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## snakefist (Jun 11, 2019)

I expect a slew of review of new/old CPUs and new/old MBs. Like what 2700x gets with 570 compared to 470 and 370. Like what, say, 3500x gets throughout new tiers of motherboards. You get the picture. That will tell the real life story, instead having something vague that will or won't improve something as vague. But historically, MBs were pretty much the same, speed regarded. Difference was in features, component quality and what user exactly needs. We'll see if this is different case...


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

phill said:


> Personally if this is how it will be, this will only limit the number of people to buy the newer CPUs or stick with older motherboards..  Seems a very poor choice for Asus....  Very sad and what I'd consider a bad move from Asus for AMD....


 In a way we could say that, business wise, the cheaper the motherboard the more cpus they will sell and the big profit margin is on the cpu. Well at least we have a choice going b450 at moment.


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## Imsochobo (Jun 11, 2019)

snakefist said:


> I expect a slew of review of new/old CPUs and new/old MBs. Like what 2700x gets with 570 compared to 470 and 370. Like what, say, 3500x gets throughout new tiers of motherboards. You get the picture. That will tell the real life story, instead having something vague that will or won't improve something as vague. But historically, MBs were pretty much the same, speed regarded. Difference was in features, component quality and what user exactly needs. We'll see if this is different case...



Amd promises only difference will be Pci-E 4.0 and no performance degregation.
But I doubt the 16 core will be good on any B-3\450 boards.
X370\470 boards should have no issues without clocking them to the moon.

12 core on even the 3 phase AB350 pro4 should be fine at stock.


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## BakerMan1971 (Jun 11, 2019)

With enthusiast level chips being available on the AM4 platform these prices are not that crazy
the B series should easily cater for mainstram which would include overclocking capability

These high end boards are more HEDT style affairs from what I see, I remember getting the cheapest X99 board almost 5 years ago and that hit me for £179 at the time (MSI X99 S SLI PLUS) 

Just my tuppence worth


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

snakefist said:


> I expect a slew of review of new/old CPUs and new/old MBs. Like what 2700x gets with 570 compared to 470 and 370. Like what, say, 3500x gets throughout new tiers of motherboards. You get the picture. That will tell the real life story, instead having something vague that will or won't improve something as vague. But historically, MBs were pretty much the same, speed regarded. Difference was in features, component quality and what user exactly needs. We'll see if this is different case...



Taking the tdp of both, 2700x = 105w and 3950x = 105w, we can assume even a b450 will work pretty good with the top of the line monster 16 cores 3950x.



Imsochobo said:


> Amd promises only difference will be Pci-E 4.0 and no performance degregation.
> But I doubt the 16 core will be good on any B-3\450 boards.
> X370\470 boards should have no issues without clocking them to the moon.
> 
> 12 core on even the 3 phase AB350 pro4 should be fine at stock.



That is yet to be seen, tdp wise, 2700x and 3950x are equal.


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## LunaTech (Jun 11, 2019)

I was hoping for the price of the Asus Dtx version impact so I can prepare my wallet for "Impact"


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

vprem said:


> There is NO Real Diference between “Dat-Small-Fry” & “ChipZilla” because there is NO Real Difference between Fear & Greed – for the simple reason that Fear is The “Past”/Source of Greed. Cheap Motherboards might be Dead but “Long-Live the $1k [and beyond] Mobo”. After all, "Someone Gotas To Pay for Real Mobos". And since we are NOT talking about sellin' A Few [but gazillions] of 'Em, who sez ,"Yous Kany Haff Yore Kake und Eat Eet?". With those "Born Runing On ALL Fours", leading The-Charge towards The-Cliff's-Edge, it ist All Too-Easy. Shorely!
> 
> All may know that Fear-Greed exist but NOT when ONLY A Handful are able to realise so. This is because The Vast Majority are Addicted-to self-Damage/”Damaging-Others”. You know, when Gaining-An-Advantage is at “Another’s” Expense. No wonder another name for “The-Devil” is The-Joker. The-Moment when NOTHING/S*A is really Real.
> 
> How come those Lacking “Innocence”/Virtue are so “Stupid-Dumb” as to believe that “Stupidity-Dumbness” is “Another’s-Problem”? NOT when ALL “Breath-The-Same-Air”/”Drink-The-Same-Dinosaurs’-Urination”. Including/Especially those “Born Runnng-On-All-Fours”. ALL Virtues, without a single exception, are “Innately-Provisioned-Within”. Meaning that “Patience”, for example, CANNOT be Created nor Destroyed – by Energy-Transformers – NO matter how they were “Born”/”Die”.



Is that a rap song?


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## 95Viper (Jun 11, 2019)

Keep it on topic

Thank You.


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## MAXLD (Jun 11, 2019)

> the TUF Gaming X570-Plus will go for $169.99



That's actually not bad at all. $170 for a board that has mostly what you need, looks solid enough for a regular R5 / R7 3700X, and doesn't look like crap, that's fine.


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## Athlonite (Jun 11, 2019)

Back on topic if per say PCIe 4.0 is the only difference then why is there a huge difference in price between x470 and x570 I mean all PCIe 4.0 is is an increase in bandwidth from PCIe 3.0 right but is that really where it ends is that really all there is to it IMHO probably not


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## Countryside (Jun 11, 2019)

Imsochobo said:


> with premium design, vrm, addin things like nics, sound and god knows what.
> It was way better than feared!
> Looke like 170$ for my X570M pro4 from asrock



Pro 4 is the budget line so 170 is really unlikely, im planning on buying it myself but not for more then 130euros.


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## Camm (Jun 11, 2019)

Meh, the lower end boards are still about the same price as lower end X470, and the higher end are about the same price as HEDT boards, of which a 12 and 16 core chip are in the same bracket.


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## phanbuey (Jun 11, 2019)

If its anything like past releases where a b350 and a 2700 with a bit of tweaking = and x470 and a 2700x perfomance then it was never worth to begin with


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## s3thra (Jun 11, 2019)

Could this be partly due to the Trump tariffs finally taking effect, and being that these product are new, they are incurring the new, higher prices?

Oh, and Australian motherboard prices say hi...


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## Vario (Jun 11, 2019)

Anyone considering purchasing a new older series motherboard now before the 3000 series launch should wait until after launch when hopefully positive anecdotal reports come in about compatibility with the new Ryzen 2 series.


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## shmuck (Jun 11, 2019)

Vario said:


> Anyone considering purchasing a new older series motherboard now before the 3000 series launch should wait until after launch when hopefully positive anecdotal reports come in about compatibility with the new Ryzen 2 series.



I'm waiting for some Ryzen 3000 paired with B450 reviews. Both CPU and RAM overclockability are of particular interest. MSI Tomahawk and Gaming Pro Carbon are my top contenders for the moment, but I'm not pulling the trigger until I see some numbers.


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## Hardware Geek (Jun 11, 2019)

So there is a wide range of prices and options for x570. I fail to see the issue.


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## TheDeeGee (Jun 11, 2019)

40 MM Fans are expensive you know...


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## snakefist (Jun 11, 2019)

Metroid said:


> Taking the tdp of both, 2700x = 105w and 3950x = 105w, we can assume even a b450 will work pretty good with the top of the line monster 16 cores 3950x.
> 
> That is yet to be seen, tdp wise, 2700x and 3950x are equal.



Yeah, that's about what I'm interested in - I have 1500X on 370 (I need 370 because I need as much of M.2 and cached HDDs - long story). I *might* buy another CPU on, say, B450 if I can move all those drives in, if the deal is better - and that only because I'm keeping what I have, I need another mid-range system.

PCI4.0 is currently not of my interest.


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## Manu_PT (Jun 11, 2019)

Hardware Geek said:


> So there is a wide range of prices and options for x570. I fail to see the issue.



The issue is that if you try any sort of good CPU overclock + good ram overclock on a 160€ entry level motherboard like those , high chances you will fail hard. Did you bother to see those VRMs? That´s low -end material being sold at 160€. But you do what you want with your money of course!


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## Fatalfury (Jun 11, 2019)

Asus-  "Overpricing everything since 25 years.."
Also called Asus premium tax.


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

Fatalfury said:


> Asus-  "Overpricing everything since 25 years.."
> Also called Asus premium tax.



Even lower end is $20 more than the others and that in the lower end is a lot of money. Asus-  "Overpricing everything since 25 years.." hehe



snakefist said:


> Yeah, that's about what I'm interested in - I have 1500X on 370 (I need 370 because I need as much of M.2 and cached HDDs - long story). I *might* buy another CPU on, say, B450 if I can move all those drives in, if the deal is better - and that only because I'm keeping what I have, I need another mid-range system.
> 
> PCI4.0 is currently not of my interest.



At the moment only people with more money than sense will buy a x570. Buying a b450 will save $80 which can be used for something else, all things considered, we have to wait and see how asrock will price its x570. Like I said before asus charging $160 for its entry x570 is good news.


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## Aretak (Jun 11, 2019)

Metroid said:


> It seems that update was blocked by amd itself.


I wouldn't blame them if they've told motherboard manufacturers not to do it. AMD will end up being the ones who get the blowback if/when it doesn't work as expected. I still remember what an absolute mess X79 was with regards to the 2.0/3.0 switchover. Some boards could handle 3.0, some couldn't. Some CPUs could handle it, some couldn't. Even some specific revisions of CPUs could handle it, but not others. Nvidia still disable PCIe 3.0 support on X79 to this day when using a Sandy Bridge-E chip, with manual patching required to remove the restriction. My 3970X and X79-Deluxe combo could handle 3.0 just fine, but it was unstable on many other chips and boards.


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## Nordic (Jun 11, 2019)

Vario said:


> Anyone considering purchasing a new older series motherboard now before the 3000 series launch should wait until after launch when hopefully positive anecdotal reports come in about compatibility with the new Ryzen 2 series.



I was thinking about doing just that until I saw that there was no x470 matx motherboards on newegg. I don't want to buy a new case, so therefor I am buying matx, which means no X470 for me then.


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## Hardware Geek (Jun 11, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> The issue is that if you try any sort of good CPU overclock + good ram overclock on a 160€ entry level motherboard like those , high chances you will fail hard. Did you bother to see those VRMs? That´s low -end material being sold at 160€. But you do what you want with your money of course!


Presumably if one is inclined to overclock their CPU and RAM, they will likely buy a higher quality board.
My point was that there is a wide range of prices and if you just want to buy something to run stock speeds, you can do that at a reasonable price. I guess my comment was too vague. My apologies.

Would I buy a low end board? No way. But I am not the target market for low end hardware and there are higher end options for those of us that want to overclock, etc.


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## Metroid (Jun 11, 2019)

Aretak said:


> I wouldn't blame them if they've told motherboard manufacturers not to do it. AMD will end up being the ones who get the blowback if/when it doesn't work as expected. I still remember what an absolute mess X79 was with regards to the 2.0/3.0 switchover. Some boards could handle 3.0, some couldn't. Some CPUs could handle it, some couldn't. Even some specific revisions of CPUs could handle it, but not others. Nvidia still disable PCIe 3.0 support on X79 to this day when using a Sandy Bridge-E chip, with manual patching required to remove the restriction. My 3970X and X79-Deluxe combo could handle 3.0 just fine, but it was unstable on many other chips and boards.



I guess that is why they decided to disable it prior x570.


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## Dristun (Jun 11, 2019)

I just want Thunderbolt 3 ports on my Ryzen system and don't care about overclocking, seems like at least Gigabyte and AsRock will have boards equipped with those.


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## kapone32 (Jun 11, 2019)

Athlonite said:


> Back on topic if per say PCIe 4.0 is the only difference then why is there a huge difference in price between x470 and x570 I mean all PCIe 4.0 is is an increase in bandwidth from PCIe 3.0 right but is that really where it ends is that really all there is to it IMHO probably not



It is not the only the difference because of the signal requirements for PCI_E 4.0, the X570 boards are at the least a 6 layer PCB. There is no X470 with that thick a PCB. Other things like Wifi 6, Thunderbolt support (on some), WIFI 6 and VRM upgrades using enterprise level parts (GIgabyte Aorus X570, I don't even want to know what that board will cost with the Infineon VRM controller that is a natural 16 phase VRM.



s3thra said:


> Could this be partly due to the Trump tariffs finally taking effect, and being that these product are new, they are incurring the new, higher prices?
> 
> Oh, and Australian motherboard prices say hi...



Asus is based in Taiwan and not China so no.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 11, 2019)

Keep in mind that we'll be getting 4, 6 and 8-layer boards and the cost of adding additional PCB layers is a fair amount of money for one, this is not new though, but...
All X570 boards also use higher quality/lower noise/reduced interference materials for the PCIe 4.0 signaling, which adds further cost (I mentioned this elsewhere).
As such, the base PCBA is already costing more than on previous generation products.
Add a more expensive chipset, additional components for PCIe 4.0 signal integrity and you end up with more expensive boards.
I'm sure the prices will come down over time, as they always do, but it seems as hardware is getting faster and more complex, prices goes up.
I guess we're all so used with the fact that prices have in general come down as we make advancements, but it seems that we've reached a point in time, where this is no longer true for a lot of things.


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## kapone32 (Jun 11, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> The issue is that if you try any sort of good CPU overclock + good ram overclock on a 160€ entry level motherboard like those , high chances you will fail hard. Did you bother to see those VRMs? That´s low -end material being sold at 160€. But you do what you want with your money of course!



Not sure about the new chips but XFR2 and PBO currently do a better job on Ryzen CPUs than a straight up OC.


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## phill (Jun 11, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> Keep in mind that we'll be getting 4, 6 and 8-layer boards and the cost of adding additional PCB layers is a fair amount of money for one, this is not new though, but...
> All X570 boards also use higher quality/lower noise/reduced interference materials for the PCIe 4.0 signaling, which adds further cost (I mentioned this elsewhere).
> As such, the base PCBA is already costing more than on previous generation products.
> Add a more expensive chipset, additional components for PCIe 4.0 signal integrity and you end up with more expensive boards.
> ...



I thought some of the higher end Asrock boards are 10 layers or more?  They aren't as expensive..  It just seems like such a price hike for nothing more than greed to me.  Yes the newer advance tech might cost a little but not as much as Asus are supposedly selling it for.  
That just seems a OTT....


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## illli (Jun 11, 2019)

how is this a 'horror story' when intel has been pricing their boards like this, and worse? doing forced obsolescence in order to make you have to buy a new motherboard like every other year lol.  At least AM4 has been around a long time.  
 Anyways, the REAL horror story is i haven't seen ONE micro atx motherboard


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## GreiverBlade (Jun 11, 2019)

cute .... their price are almost on par with the X470 for me ... enjoy  

the cheapest decent X470 is 160$ and the highest is around 289$


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## DeOdView (Jun 11, 2019)

I'm curious to how much the IC cost?
MBs ranging $150 - $700.

Did AMD make you (MB MFGs) sell that high?   I don't remember AMD sold the MBs to you?  NO?!  
YOU made them and decided to sell them that MUCH and cry foul on AMD???  

NO, seriously?!  what's wrong with this picture?

Mining prices on the Video reminded me all over again...

Sighs!


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 11, 2019)

phill said:


> I thought some of the higher end Asrock boards are 10 layers or more?  They aren't as expensive..  It just seems like such a price hike for nothing more than greed to me.  Yes the newer advance tech might cost a little but not as much as Asus are supposedly selling it for.
> That just seems a OTT....



And your level of experience in PCBA manufacturing is?
There might be one or two 10 layer consumer boards, but that's it, it simply doesn't make sense.
Most are four or six layer boards, eight is in fact quite extreme.
However, this is the first generation of consumer boards that need low loss materials. Some details here, albeit a bit old https://www.lboro.ac.uk/microsites/research/iemrc/documents/EventsDocuments/2012 conference/presentations/A Morgan Low Loss High speed laminates - What is really needed.pdf
This is a fairly big transition in terms of PCBA manufacturing materials, but I guess you wouldn't know much about that, as I presume you haven't actually been involved in making any hardware.

Also keep in mind that ASRock has a $999 board...

*Edit:* It's not low loss, it's mid-loss, I keep getting that wrong...


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## HD64G (Jun 11, 2019)

Totally indifferent to those prices. A good B450 is more than enough for any stock Ryzen 3000, even the 3950 since the efficiency of the 7nm process is great and the algorithms in the cores work well also.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 11, 2019)

illli said:


> how is this a 'horror story' when intel has been pricing their boards like this, and worse? doing forced obsolescence in order to make you have to buy a new motherboard like every other year lol.  At least AM4 has been around a long time.
> Anyways, the REAL horror story is i haven't seen ONE micro atx motherboard


Will this do for now?
Apologies for the slightly blurry pics...


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## FlanK3r (Jun 11, 2019)

Bah, its nonsense article.
All vendors will have more expensive  new MBs, because u need  better switches for PCIe 4.0 etc, there is also better VRM and you could to know, drmosfet is between 1.1-2.5 dollars for one. ALso active cooling is not for free . Only logic.
ANd AMD is stronger and stronger, so we can expect higher price in future with new products.


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## phill (Jun 11, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> And your level of experience in PCBA manufacturing is?
> There might be one or two 10 layer consumer boards, but that's it, it simply doesn't make sense.
> Most are four or six layer boards, eight is in fact quite extreme.
> However, this is the first generation of consumer boards that need low loss materials. Some details here, albeit a bit old https://www.lboro.ac.uk/microsites/research/iemrc/documents/EventsDocuments/2012 conference/presentations/A Morgan Low Loss High speed laminates - What is really needed.pdf
> ...



Likewise, do you have any experience there?  There's no need to be rude or abrupt about a comment..  I believe I have a few 8 or 10 layered motherboards at home, I'd have to check to make sure.

I'm not looking at $999 priced motherboards, if that Asrock board is the water cooled RGB affair, I wouldn't even go near it.  It's simply not my style or tastes.  

I'll wait and see what is happening on release but if they want to charge that amount of cash for a board good luck to them, I won't be buying one.  I can only guess that they charge what they like if it's AMD now being the top dog over Intel, got to cash in..  Cynical I know but still, I'm sure these prices aren't priced for the good of the products or the consumers..  But still, I don't see the need to price so high and that's just my personal opinion.  Kind of off sets the price of the setup then if the motherboards are crazy priced and then CPUs cheaper..  But I digress....


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## kapone32 (Jun 11, 2019)

phill said:


> I thought some of the higher end Asrock boards are 10 layers or more?  They aren't as expensive..  It just seems like such a price hike for nothing more than greed to me.  Yes the newer advance tech might cost a little but not as much as Asus are supposedly selling it for.
> That just seems a OTT....



There is no pricing on As Rock boards other than the one with a mono block that will be $1000.00 and there . As a sub of Asus they do generally have cheaper boards but the Taichi and up will not be cheaper than the Asus Prime board (based on X470 prices).


----------



## turbogear (Jun 11, 2019)

I am not sure if less than 10 layers is enough for PCB with this complexity. I would believe that these boards have more than 10 layers.

At these speeds signal integrity becomes challenging. You often need to go for better PCB material with lower Er values which will make PCB more expensive.
I myself being hardware project manager and designer in the area of high frequency and high speed have to deal with such topics. At certain signal speeds PCB becomes one of the expensive parts of the BOM.

In one of the projects I worked on containing multiple 10Gbit/s high speed links with FPGA, DDR3, high speed DAC and ADC and RF signal at 2.7GHz frequency, we needed 16 layer board with 2.5 Er which costed alone around 60 Euros per PCB.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 11, 2019)

turbogear said:


> I am not sure if less than 10 layers is enough for PCB with this complexity. I would believe that these boards have more than 10 layers.
> 
> At these speeds signal integrity becomes challenging. You often need to go for better PCB material with lower Er values which will make PCB more expensive.
> I myself being hardware project manager and designer in the area of high frequency and high speed have to deal with such topics. At certain signal speeds PCB becomes one of the expensive parts of the BOM.
> ...



Nope the highest PCB is 10. The other thing is that 10GBit do not require what you are saying with X570 as PCI_E 4.0 provides more than enough bandwidth to be over saturated by 10GBit. Even some of the X399 boards have 10 Gbit and are nowhere near 6 PCB layers.


----------



## phill (Jun 11, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> There is no pricing on As Rock boards other than the one with a mono block that will be $1000.00 and there . As a sub of Asus they do generally have cheaper boards but the Taichi and up will not be cheaper than the Asus Prime board (based on X470 prices).



Just basing the costs of boards on current X470 boards, the Asrock V Asus are a fair bit different.  I'm been considering Asrock for a while as I have a few motherboards already from them.  I'll grab a snip from Scan (UK) and show what I mean..






For how I'm looking at things are the Taichi at £190 ish, is like the Hero and then the Taichi Ultimate at £230 is like the Hero Wi-Fi...  I do think that the Ultimate board does seem to give a few more features such as 10Gb as an example..  Both Taichi boards do come with Wi-Fi as standard from the bit of text above...

Meh, what do I know


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 11, 2019)

DeOdView said:


> I'm curious to how much the IC cost?
> MBs ranging $150 - $700.
> 
> Did AMD make you (MB MFGs) sell that high?   I don't remember AMD sold the MBs to you?  NO?!
> ...



AMD dictates X570 must support PCIe 4.0.

PCIe 4.0 needs at least a 6-layer board for signaling.

6-layer (minimum) boards cost a lot more.

Do the math.



TheDeeGee said:


> 40 MM Fans are expensive you know...



1.) No they aren't

2.) Wrong thread maybe?


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 11, 2019)

phill said:


> Likewise, do you have any experience there?  There's no need to be rude or abrupt about a comment..  I believe I have a few 8 or 10 layered motherboards at home, I'd have to check to make sure.
> 
> I'm not looking at $999 priced motherboards, if that Asrock board is the water cooled RGB affair, I wouldn't even go near it.  It's simply not my style or tastes.
> 
> I'll wait and see what is happening on release but if they want to charge that amount of cash for a board good luck to them, I won't be buying one.  I can only guess that they charge what they like if it's AMD now being the top dog over Intel, got to cash in..  Cynical I know but still, I'm sure these prices aren't priced for the good of the products or the consumers..  But still, I don't see the need to price so high and that's just my personal opinion.  Kind of off sets the price of the setup then if the motherboards are crazy priced and then CPUs cheaper..  But I digress....



As a matter of fact, I do. I try to share information here, but it seems people are more interested in bickering here than to pause for a second and read up on things, as well as trying to understand why things are the way they are. Apparently sharing knowledge gets you nasty comments instead, which is great, so yes, my posts have become rude and abrupt because of it.

Eight layers, I wouldn't doubt, 10, hmmm, not so likely unless you have some super high-end workstation or server boards.

Neither am I, just pointing out that Asus is not the most expensive when it comes the X570 boards, since they seemingly got a lot of flack here.

It's not that simple, as the X570 chipset itself is comparable to Intel's Z390 in terms of cost (I'm afraid I don't have exact numbers, but same ballpark), but the addition of the PCIe 4.0 redrivers/retimers adds about $10-20 in cost to each board. On top of this, a lot of new, but maybe not very obvious board design changes have had to be developed for PCIe 4.0, which costs R&D time and money and the boards makers seemingly wants to recuperate that money as quickly as possible. This all leads to higher priced retail products, especially when the board makers knows that AMD has a good CPU coming, so they try to see what the market will bear. This happens time and time again, so nothing new there.



kapone32 said:


> As a sub of Asus they do generally have cheaper boards but the Taichi and up will not be cheaper than the Asus Prime board (based on X470 prices).



ASRock hasn't had anything to do with Asus for around a decade, so please update your memory banks...
ASRock is owned by Pegatron which was entirely separated from Asus in 2012 and ASRock has been independent since the split between Asus, Pegatron and Unihan in 2008.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 11, 2019)

phill said:


> Just basing the costs of boards on current X470 boards, the Asrock V Asus are a fair bit different.  I'm been considering Asrock for a while as I have a few motherboards already from them.  I'll grab a snip from Scan (UK) and show what I mean..
> 
> View attachment 124741
> 
> ...



The X470 Taichi has a weaker wireless card than the Master SLI. The Asus X470 Crosshair is the only board that supports 2 NVME drives in RAID 0 at PCI 3.0x4. The only real difference between the Taichi and the Ultimate is indeed the 10 Gbit. The only thing I give Asus over As Rock for AMD boards is that their BIOS are more granular. Not that As rock has bad BIOS.



TheLostSwede said:


> As a matter of fact, I do. I try to share information here, but it seems people are more interested in bickering here than to pause for a second and read up on things, as well as trying to understand why things are the way they are. Apparently sharing knowledge gets you nasty comments instead, which is great, so yes, my posts have become rude and abrupt because of it.
> 
> Eight layers, I wouldn't doubt, 10, hmmm, not so likely unless you have some super high-end workstation or server boards.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update. I was not aware of that


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 11, 2019)

turbogear said:


> I am not sure if less than 10 layers is enough for PCB with this complexity. I would believe that these boards have more than 10 layers.
> 
> At these speeds signal integrity becomes challenging. You often need to go for better PCB material with lower Er values which will make PCB more expensive.
> I myself being hardware project manager and designer in the area of high frequency and high speed have to deal with such topics. At certain signal speeds PCB becomes one of the expensive parts of the BOM.
> ...



To my knowledge, there will at least be 6 and 8 layer boards. Again, they've changed the PCB material to a higher grade material that still allows for the same amount of PCB layers as before.
Please see the link in my earlier comment.
Layers are usually not added for the hell of it, as it makes for quite and expensive PCBA really quick.
16 layers must've been some seriously special gear.


----------



## turbogear (Jun 11, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> To my knowledge, there will be 4, 6 and 8 layer  boards. Again, they've changed the PCB material to a higher grade material that still allows for the same amount of PCB layers as before.
> Please see the link in my earlier comment.
> Layers are usually not added for the hell of it, as it makes for quite and expensive PCBA really quick.
> 16 layers must've been some seriously special gear.


16 layer board was containing both high speed digtal signal and an RF ( analog radio frequency up to 2.7GHz). 
It is hard to believe that they use 4 or 6 layer board.

4 layer would mean only 2 layers for routing. How do they rout all signals out of processor with only 2 layers available?
Furthermore, you need refernce ground layer and also you have to put power plane layers.
4 layers would mean most of signals on top/bottom layer with reference in 2 and 3 layers.
Power planes also sharing ground layer in 2 and 3 or?

DDR routing is also usually very critical. These are usually impedence controlled lines needing proper reference planes which means in that area where they are routed the refernce plane in not allowed to be broken with other signals passing through. This would be a challange in board with 4 laers only.

6 layers could work with having dedicated layer for power planes but challenging for routing all signal out of processor. Maybe could work by using micro-vias which are also expensive.

I would say 8 layer would be more proper. 10 layer maybe needed to rout out all the signals out of so many processor pins.


----------



## RoutedScripter (Jun 11, 2019)

Hahaha everyone angry on the Chipset Fan-cooling, I like it that it rubs your whiny mouths, I like that it's realistic and not some console-plug-n-play, they rather put a FAN on it then compromise the performance, that's the spirit!

I understand the only valid point of small fans being *noisy*, if they're not noisy then it's no issue, WE DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE GOING TO BE NOISY YET, don't jump to conclusions. If they are noisy, petition the Mobo factory to FIX THE NOISE BY MAKING A BIGGER OR BETTER FAN BUT KEEP THE PERFORMANCE !!! But I know you whiners, if they added a GIANT fan on there you'd be complaining it's "OH MAY GAWD A BIG FAN ON THE CHIPSET" You just find ANYTHING to whine about that pertains nothing other than petty *CONVENIENCE. *Put the PC in a refrigerator then, that'll not only cool it but, but also keep the noise out, where's the PC-master-race-improvisation-tech-geek spirit, come on, FIGURE IT OUT.

It's like little kids from a kindergarden, as soon as something's a bit out the ordinary they have this stupid dumb OH MAY GAWD reaction. OH MY GAWD I NEVER SAW A LITTLE FAN BLOWING A LITTLE CHIP BEFORE.

OH MY GAWD IN ORDER TO GET TO THE MOON IN 10 MINUTES I HAVE TO COOL THE ION ENGINES WITH 300 COOLERS WAAAAAA .. because it's reality, it's not fairy tale land. Consoles come covered up in a box so it's not visible to the most users what goes inside, PC hardware comes relatively barebone, get on with the methods/culture of PC or GTFO I'd say 

And the way the small cooler is hidden behind the chipset cooling apparatus/heatsink, I hardly even noticed it from the pictures if I didn't read about it it's there. There's SO many things they can do to make that presence of the fan and it's noise to be a moot point, that's the kind of stuff I'd rather see the community to cheer about, you don't have to remove the damn fan, all you need is a bit of inginuety to solve the problems in another way.



/rant


----------



## RichF (Jun 11, 2019)

"You can very much do pair these processors with motherboards based on the older AMD X470 and B450 chipset motherboards."

But will they, especially the B450, handle the much in terms of RAM speed? RAM speed may become one of the crucial dividing lines, especially since B die has been EOLed.

Buildzoid also said that only MSI B450 boards, like the Tomahawk and Pro Carbon, have decent-quality MOSFETs, as I recall. I have read a report recently that MSI pulled a switcheroo on one of its boards (Intel perhaps), substituting junk MOSFETs in a 2.0 revision of "the same board". This sort of thing is, unfortunately, too common in our Wild West unregulated motherboard market. Companies get to pull switcheroos and flat-out lie about phase count. They have been caught so many times and simply say it's a mistake and apologize. I think Gigabyte is the latest company to blame its marketing department, or whatever, as if marketing employees ignore the information they're sent by the engineers and managers. Nvidia made the same bogus claim about the 970 during VRAMGate. The 2.0 version of the UD3P AM3+ board from Gigabyte was highly-touted in forums and marketing for having an 8 phase VRM. In reality, it was a 4 phase with a doubler and the 2.0 revision stripped components so the board wouldn't post past the 4.4 GHz multiplier. Gigabyte ignored the problem and never updated the BIOS to even prevent people from using higher than that multiplier. The big trick in recent times, though, has been to double up on chokes and other irrelevancies in order to mask the outright lie about phase count. At least a doubled 4 phase is somewhat an 8 phase. That kind of trickery wasn't good enough, apparently. Not even putting in a doubler became the next innovation.

"It's a mistake that we were caught. It will be a mistake the next time you catch us."


RuskiSnajper said:


> Hahaha everyone angry on the Chipset Fan-cooling,


Because they're a suboptimal kludge.

1) Prone to failure.
2) Noisy.
3) Dust.


R-T-B said:


> PCIe 4.0 needs at least a 6-layer board for signaling. 6-layer (minimum) boards cost a lot more.


That's what Anandtech's writer said. However, in the same article it was mentioned that Gigabyte will be selling 4 layer 570s.


----------



## Totally (Jun 11, 2019)

I don't remember Intel boarsmds ever being that pricey. Iirc $399 could get you just about any board with an Intel socket notable exceptions being some skulltrail boards or sr2 classified. I'll be honest my knowledge may be out of date and I'm not trying to hard bring to up to date because paying $350 for something that was once $200-$250 is not something I'll look forward to. 

Inb4, motherboard makers report record lows sales despite record high profits.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 11, 2019)

turbogear said:


> 16 layer board was containing both high speed digtal signal and an RF ( analog radio frequency up to 2.7GHz).
> It is hard to believe that they use 4 or 6 layer board.
> 
> 4 layer would mean only 2 layers for routing. How do they rout all signals out of processor with only 2 layers available?
> ...



You're right, four is unrealistic, but most consumer motherboards are still six layers, with higher-end models being eight layers.
Apparently EVGA is going for 10 on their high-end boards, something I'd missed.
Even something fairly high-end like this, is only six layers https://www.aorus.com/Z390-AORUS-ULTRA-rev-10


----------



## jahramika (Jun 11, 2019)

Well I think I will stick with my X470 for now. Noo need for the PCIE 4.0 until when I upgrade M.2 NVME in the future. Unless PCIE 4 make the Video better than on PCOE 3.0


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 11, 2019)

jahramika said:


> Well I think I will stick with my X470 for now. Noo need for the PCIE 4.0 until when I upgrade M.2 NVME in the future. Unless PCIE 4 make the Video better than on PCOE 3.0



There will be PCI_E 4.0 lanes in the CPU itself. I will be interested to see how these new chips work in AM4 boards. The biggest question for me is that will the addition of a Ryzen2 CPU to an X470 board allow those memory clocks (most top end X470 have support for as high as 4000Mhz in the BIOS) or will it require an X570 board?



RuskiSnajper said:


> Hahaha everyone angry on the Chipset Fan-cooling, I like it that it rubs your whiny mouths, I like that it's realistic and not some console-plug-n-play, they rather put a FAN on it then compromise the performance, that's the spirit!
> 
> I understand the only valid point of small fans being *noisy*, if they're not noisy then it's no issue, WE DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE GOING TO BE NOISY YET, don't jump to conclusions. If they are noisy, petition the Mobo factory to FIX THE NOISE BY MAKING A BIGGER OR BETTER FAN BUT KEEP THE PERFORMANCE !!! But I know you whiners, if they added a GIANT fan on there you'd be complaining it's "OH MAY GAWD A BIG FAN ON THE CHIPSET" You just find ANYTHING to whine about that pertains nothing other than petty *CONVENIENCE. *Put the PC in a refrigerator then, that'll not only cool it but, but also keep the noise out, where's the PC-master-race-improvisation-tech-geek spirit, come on, FIGURE IT OUT.
> 
> ...


 Plus as I understand the 40MM are 4 pin PWM. So when you are doing some serious gaming the sound from the GPU fans should drown out anything the chipset fans apply. Neither is this the first implementation. I had a As Rock 890GX Extreme that came with a 40mm fan. It was not pre installed but part of the package.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 11, 2019)

Totally said:


> I don't remember Intel boarsmds ever being that pricey. Iirc $399 could get you just about any board with an Intel socket notable exceptions being some skulltrail boards or sr2 classified. I'll be honest my knowledge may be out of date and I'm not trying to hard bring to up to date because paying $350 for something that was once $200-$250 is not something I'll look forward to.
> 
> Inb4, motherboard makers report record lows sales despite record high profits.


Did many of those 200$ boards have pciex4.

Think progress, you seam stuck on intels upgrade path , same shit year after year +10% and a new motherboard with only high speed usb4 alpha ports as an innovation.

When intel bring pciex 4 their board price WILL increase too.


----------



## turbogear (Jun 11, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> You're right, four is unrealistic, but most consumer motherboards are still six layers, with higher-end models being eight layers.
> Apparently EVGA is going for 10 on their high-end boards, something I'd missed.
> Even something fairly high-end like this, is only six layers https://www.aorus.com/Z390-AORUS-ULTRA-rev-10



Thanks.
It would be interesting to have a look at Gerber data of modern mainboards to see how they do the fan-out of all impedance controlled differential and single ended lines out of processor with 6 layers. 

Maybe my layout colleagues can learn somethings. 

In any case, I find Crosshair VIII Hero WIFI  interesting but I am not too much in hurry to switch the platform.
I own 2700x with Crosshair VII Hero WIFI and Radeon VII watercooled.
I find 3800x as intersting processor but would like to see reviews how much it is faster than 2700x and if it makes any sense to switch.


----------



## Eskimonster (Jun 11, 2019)

The hate against fan on the board is valid,i dont want another fail point added to my motherbord.
This new setup is gonna be expensive enough,so im defo going for no fan option.


----------



## voltage (Jun 11, 2019)

they are the new Intel, ripping loyal customers. i might check on next gen Intel boards with 10th gen and buy Intel. These amd prices suck.


----------



## Hifihedgehog (Jun 11, 2019)

@btarunr: Did you happen to get the price for the ITX board, the Asus ROG Strix X570-I Gaming?


----------



## Totally (Jun 11, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Did many of those 200$ boards have pciex4.
> 
> Think progress, you seam stuck on intels upgrade path , same shit year after year +10% and a new motherboard with only high speed usb4 alpha ports as an innovation.
> 
> When intel bring pciex 4 their board price WILL increase too.



Don't see why pcie4 would add $100. Boards with Pcie3/usb3 didn't command a solid $100 premium when they were bleeding edge. If you want to line up and to get robbed by all means go ahead.


----------



## Ahhzz (Jun 11, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> There is no pricing on As Rock boards other than the one with a mono block that will be $1000.00 and there . As a sub of Asus they do generally have cheaper boards but the Taichi and up will not be cheaper than the Asus Prime board (based on X470 prices).


I'm looking at the Taichi as a possible for my next major upgrade, hoping it's not too far up the price tree. I don't need the wireless, and I'm hoping I can find a model somewhere in their line close to this without it. It's going to be painful enough upgrading when the time comes, but I do like the looks of moving to team AMD this next round....


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 11, 2019)

Totally said:


> Don't see why pcie4 would add $100. Boards with Pcie3/usb3 didn't command a solid $100 premium when they were bleeding edge. If you want to line up and to get robbed by all means go ahead.


I doubt ill swap this crosshair tbh.

I hope to put a 3900x in it and be done.

Look at the market, Nvidia have upsold twice in the last few years, Intel prices have increased on mainstream and because they could they made hedt platform with higher pricing.

And intel were selling us quads for years man, with socket swaps that WERE NOT needed,, theses boards run up to 16 cores, I'm telling you as an engineer , pciex 4 takes more R and D, testing and more expensive parts including more parts (redriver chip/s).

With boards from 160-700 quid i don't see your point as valid.

As I said, watch intels prices ,  have you seen some of the boards you can buy Now for Intel chips.

Because you don't see it? , just means you don't see it.

There's a Bit of gouging going on but it's not Amd that Makes the boards.


----------



## Totally (Jun 11, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> AMD dictates X570 must support PCIe 4.0.
> 
> PCIe 4.0 needs at least a 6-layer board for signaling.
> 
> ...



Still don't see the justification. Distinctly remember Asus and Gigabyte advertising 8/10 layer pcbs used in their MBs for their prime/deluxe/rog/ultra durable/aorus boards and those boards were $150-250 not 300-500.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 11, 2019)

Totally said:


> Still don't see the justification. Distinctly remember Asus and Gigabyte advertising 8/10 layer pcbs used in their MBs for their prime/deluxe/rog/ultra durable/aorus boards and those boards were $150-250 not 300-500.



How many years ago, though?  Dollars lost fair bit of value since then.

Granted not that much, just saying it's a factor.


----------



## Totally (Jun 11, 2019)

Not long ago,  2 years ago when first gen ryzen came out, that when I was shopping mbs.


----------



## kanecvr (Jun 11, 2019)

We're talking about Asus here. Overpriced has been their middle name for a good few years now. I'll probably be going with whichever manufacturer provides a good quality vrm setup, decent bios and good price/performance ratio. That means Asrock, Biostar or Gigabyte.


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## lewis007 (Jun 11, 2019)

I find it funny that for years Intel and Nvidia have been purging peoples wallets and everyone has just sucked it up. Now after a decade of being the "cheap option" AMD have found parity with Intel and adjusted their pricing on products accordingly. All of a sudden people are loosing their minds. AMD are a for profit organization in a cut throat industry, what do people expect, free stuff? I will still buy AMD, and I don't mind paying a premium price for a halo product.



Imsochobo said:


> Amd promises only difference will be Pci-E 4.0 and no performance degregation.
> But I doubt the 16 core will be good on any B-3\450 boards.
> X370\470 boards should have no issues without clocking them to the moon.
> 
> 12 core on even the 3 phase AB350 pro4 should be fine at stock.


Why!!?? Who will use that combination?


----------



## phill (Jun 11, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> As a matter of fact, I do. I try to share information here, but it seems people are more interested in bickering here than to pause for a second and read up on things, as well as trying to understand why things are the way they are. Apparently sharing knowledge gets you nasty comments instead, which is great, so yes, my posts have become rude and abrupt because of it.
> 
> Eight layers, I wouldn't doubt, 10, hmmm, not so likely unless you have some super high-end workstation or server boards.
> 
> ...



Well please enlighten me as I'm always up for learning something new especially when it's down to my hobbie I enjoy   Plus I can't see the point in arguing, so I prefer to just be polite and smile a lot of the time   Easy life and all that jazz....

Oh for the motherboards I have, after a quick check, I've most are 8 and at the best 12 layered boards.  Quite surprising to be honest some of them but I funnily couldn't see anything to do with any of the Asus boards (from their product pages on their site, I couldn't see anything that mentioned 6/8/10 layered PCB boards....??) only find some rough guides that they might actually be only 6 layers (Crosshair 6 Hero boards..  Any ideas?)  I've honestly no idea what motherboards are in my servers (range from Dell R610's to R730's...  Any ideas on how to find out??  I'll try a Google in a bit...)

I have a feeling I might possibly be going to Asrock for a lot of motherboards to be honest..  Asus as many have said, seem to be a little bit over priced...  But hey, we can move on past that point now


----------



## gupsterg (Jun 11, 2019)

C6H/C7H 6 layers, The Stilt states in his group test ASUS/Gigabyte/MSI all used 6 layers.

Gigabyte X570 Aorus Extreme and MSI X570 Godlike are 8. I think also Gigabyte X570 I Aorus Pro WiFi is also 8. Be interesting to see how the 6 layers fare. TBH more so looking forward to seeing how a 3000 series clocks for RAM on X370/X470.


----------



## HaKN ! (Jun 11, 2019)

You call this expensive? 


Here in Denmark , the "Cheap" boards starts from 300 US dollars , The Asus Z390Extreme(top dog) costs 610 US Dollars


----------



## RoutedScripter (Jun 12, 2019)

I like to rant sometimes when I feel good, even if something's annoying sometimes it's just cool in another way. I don't even know my self to be honest, when I heard it has fans on the chipset I was like "HECK YEAH"

I'll see how much issues I'll have with the fan ... but the pricing stuff doesn't sound well, because most of the cool hand features that cost low they kinda put only on top models to make them more premium-like, even tho ALL BOARDS could have the digital numpad and buttons and LEDs for practically minimal amount of cost but they're so cheap, paying so much more to get that stuff is just such a pain in the ass, but we'll see. Also I need a lot of sata ports and I hope there's some kind of a souped-up mid level board with extra sata ports.

I think it's interesting because it's something new to experience, something new to troubleshoot, something new to FIX ... as much as I'm sick of my present computer's issues due to FAILING SATA PORTS ON THE MOBO THAT DROVE ME CRAZY FOR +1 YEAR TO FINALLY FIND THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM i'm still mostly a fiddle-tweak-troubleshot-maintenance guy that just likes this kind of stuff, and yes sometimes I take too much at once and kinda crash in the end, it's was what it was, I'll get more organized so I can enojy the hobby with minimal stress level.


----------



## Batou1986 (Jun 12, 2019)

Why dont you compare launch prices for the x470 instead of current prices ?
My x470 prime pro was $185 when it launched and it didn't come with beefed up VRM or PCIE4 obviously it costs more for all the circuitry to support those two things.
Also its not like you cant use x470 or even x370 if cost is an issue in which case you wouldnt be considering x570 anyway because you cant afford raid NVME or PCIE 4.0 cards anyway.
TPU reporting is literally becoming reddit post reporting


----------



## TheMadDutchDude (Jun 12, 2019)

Where did you guys get the ASRock pricing? I can’t find it anywhere. 

I mean, yeah, at $360 the CHVIII is expensive, but I’ll probably still end up with one.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 12, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I doubt ill swap this crosshair tbh.
> 
> I hope to put a 3900x in it and be done.
> 
> ...



AM4 boards are more expensive now than...ever actually in Canada. I want a Micro Center. I wonder if I can do a kickstarter campaign to make Micro Center sale prices available to the world lol.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 12, 2019)

Totally said:


> Don't see why pcie4 would add $100. Boards with Pcie3/usb3 didn't command a solid $100 premium when they were bleeding edge. If you want to line up and to get robbed by all means go ahead.



It doesn't, but when you have extra BOM costs of say around $30 for PCIe 4.0, you add a few other new things, you increase that BOM cost to $40, add margins, add distributor margins and reseller margins... it quickly adds up and becomes $100, unfortunately.



phill said:


> Well please enlighten me as I'm always up for learning something new especially when it's down to my hobbie I enjoy   Plus I can't see the point in arguing, so I prefer to just be polite and smile a lot of the time   Easy life and all that jazz....
> 
> Oh for the motherboards I have, after a quick check, I've most are 8 and at the best 12 layered boards.  Quite surprising to be honest some of them but I funnily couldn't see anything to do with any of the Asus boards (from their product pages on their site, I couldn't see anything that mentioned 6/8/10 layered PCB boards....??) only find some rough guides that they might actually be only 6 layers (Crosshair 6 Hero boards..  Any ideas?)  I've honestly no idea what motherboards are in my servers (range from Dell R610's to R730's...  Any ideas on how to find out??  I'll try a Google in a bit...)
> 
> I have a feeling I might possibly be going to Asrock for a lot of motherboards to be honest..  Asus as many have said, seem to be a little bit over priced...  But hey, we can move on past that point now



A lot of motherboards have a little "window" or indicator that shows you how many layers they have, something along the lines of this:







It's the easiest way to see how many layers the boards have. Six seems to be standard for most consumer grade motherboards, although cheap boards tend to be four and higher-end boards eight, rarely 10.

Considering you have server boards, they might be 12, but that got to be some dual socket boards or better then I'm guessing.
Layers aren't added for the hell of it, they're only added when needed or as a selling point. Generally smaller boards tend to need more layers as well, as you have less space to route the signals. This is why mini-ITX boards are often eight, rather than six layers.



HaKN ! said:


> You call this expensive?
> 
> 
> Here in Denmark , the "Cheap" boards starts from 300 US dollars , The Asus Z390Extreme(top dog) costs 610 US Dollars



You need to start shopping online, from anywhere else within the EU it would seem...
I thought Sweden was expensive, until I realised how expensive Denmark was. Well, then there's Norway, but hey...



turbogear said:


> Thanks.
> It would be interesting to have a look at Gerber data of modern mainboards to see how they do the fan-out of all impedance controlled differential and single ended lines out of processor with 6 layers.
> 
> Maybe my layout colleagues can learn somethings.



Just checked with someone and apparently there already are four layer X570 boards.
Expect the sub $200 board to be four layer boards.


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## phill (Jun 12, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> It doesn't, but when you have extra BOM costs of say around $30 for PCIe 4.0, you add a few other new things, you increase that BOM cost to $40, add margins, add distributor margins and reseller margins... it quickly adds up and becomes $100, unfortunately.
> 
> A lot of motherboards have a little "window" or indicator that shows you how many layers they have, something along the lines of this:
> 
> ...



The two boards I have that are 12 layers are the EVGA X79 Dark and the EVGA X299 Dark.. I was quite surprised.  I'll have to find out what the server boards are, will be interesting to see  

On the Asrock boards I have, they have the indicator in plain sight but the Asus boards I couldn't see anything marked on them, oh well 

I believe the EVGA SR-2 is only 8 layer but then that's a rather old board.  I'll check over the server boards and report back  

Side note - I see PCStats, what a great forum and site that used to be


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 12, 2019)

On a different note, it looks like the cheapest "tier 1" boards will be $159, apparently MSI will start at $189, hence why their CEO was so quick to go out and complain about pricing I guess...
Only expect a few models under $200 from all the board makers, as in less than a handful. So those complaining that Asus is expensive, this seems to be the new norm.


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## medi01 (Jun 12, 2019)

Totally said:


> Distinctly remember Asus and Gigabyte advertising 8/10 layer pcbs used in their MBs for their prime/deluxe/rog/ultra durable/aorus boards and those boards were $150-250 not 300-500.


Asus starts at $159, what boards are you talking about?


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## phill (Jun 12, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> On a different note, it looks like the cheapest "tier 1" boards will be $159, apparently MSI will start at $189, hence why their CEO was so quick to go out and complain about pricing I guess...
> Only expect a few models under $200 from all the board makers, as in less than a handful. So those complaining that Asus is expensive, this seems to be the new norm.



I'm sure when things come a bit more 'normal' prices might drop down a little but I will wait and see 

I might have to rethink the Crosshair Formula collection if the boards are going to cost $700.....  

Just waiting on the reviews for the kit and CPUs now..


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## plonk420 (Jun 12, 2019)

> Its slightly bolstered twin, the TUF

oh, this could be good

> Gaming

oh, nevermind


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## msroadkill612 (Jun 13, 2019)

"The cheapest AMD X570 motherboard from ASUS is the Prime X570-P, which is priced at USD $159.99. Its slightly bolstered twin, the TUF Gaming X570-Plus will go for $169.99. A variant of this exact board with integrated Wi-Fi 6 will be priced at $184.99. This is where things get crazy. "

For the sane among us then:









						PRIME X570-P   | Motherboards | ASUS Global
					

AMD AM4 motherboard with PCIe Gen 4 for ultra-high transfer speed, and ASUS OptiMem for improved memory overclocking




					www.asus.com
				









						TUF GAMING X570-PLUS｜Motherboards｜ASUS Global
					






					www.asus.com


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## Ahhzz (Jun 13, 2019)

msroadkill612 said:


> "The cheapest AMD X570 motherboard from ASUS is the Prime X570-P, which is priced at USD $159.99. Its slightly bolstered twin, the TUF Gaming X570-Plus will go for $169.99. A variant of this exact board with integrated Wi-Fi 6 will be priced at $184.99. This is where things get crazy. "
> 
> For the sane among us then:
> 
> ...


That's not bad on the TUF, altho I would like a couple of USB-C to the front. I could go with sticking a 3700 on that....


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## B-Real (Jun 14, 2019)

The X470 and B450 but even X370 and B350 are just as good as X570. It doesn't have PCI-E 4.0 which will mean zero difference in everyday performance, plus many expressed their concern about that mobo fan.


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## iGigaFlop (Jun 14, 2019)

Well its the aorus master or the crosshair 7 for me their both are close in price. Im getting the 3900x i have a 2700x with a crosshair 7 and i know it would be up to the task and i was gonna get a cheap b450 board for the 2700x but the new vrm’s look pretty good. I think the aorus might be better i dont think its using doublers. But i also have an 8700k with a aorus gaming 7 great motherboard bad bios i like asus’s bios so much more so i might just get the non wifi crosshair viii.


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## BrainCruser (Jun 17, 2019)

Oh noes, I have to spend 200$ for a motherboard for a 12-core CPU. Hint, to feed that amount of cores with significant data for processing you will need 16-32GB of ram anyway.


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