# AMD Internal Benchmarks Show HD 3850 Supremacy



## zekrahminator (Nov 12, 2007)

Well, the charts speak for themselves really. The 3850, which should be less than $200USD when it is released later this month, completely slaughters the intended competition, which includes the HD 2600XT, and the NVIDIA GeForce 8600GTS. The 3850 also holds it's own against the HD 2900XT. 


 

 

 




 

 

 

 

 

 



The last images show RV670 supremacy in DirectX10 rendering.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## panchoman (Nov 12, 2007)

very impressive, but i thought this was suppossed to compete with the 8800gt...


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## WhiteLotus (Nov 12, 2007)

bugger me! if there at a good price in UK - which they prob wont be - then im holding of my upgrade for a bit!


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## intel igent (Nov 12, 2007)

panchoman said:


> very impressive, but i thought this was suppossed to compete with the 8800gt...



that would be the 3870 

lookin good so far i guess. hopefully these are not bloated #'s just to hype the release.

still waiting for real world tests.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

The GT will blow away all offerings from ATI this year, these new cards from ATI are basically 2900xt's with lower power consumption, if you don't mind sacrificing performance then by all means go with ATI, the rest who like decent framerates will grab a 8800GT.


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## WhiteLotus (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> The GT will blow away all offerings from ATI this year, these new cards from ATI are basically 2900xt's with lower power consumption, if you don't mind sacrificing performance then by all means go with ATI, the rest who like decent framerates will grab a 8800GT.




cough...fanboy...cough


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> The GT will blow away all offerings from ATI this year, these new cards from ATI are basically 2900xt's with lower power consumption, if you don't mind sacrificing performance then by all means go with ATI, the rest who like decent framerates will grab a 8800GT.



utter junk.


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## panchoman (Nov 12, 2007)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> utter junk.



agreed. and i'd like to see how the 3870 will compete with the 8800gt..


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## indybird (Nov 12, 2007)

panchoman said:


> very impressive, but i thought this was suppossed to compete with the 8800gt...



I'm sure it will be able to compete no problem. 

Wow, these cards are insane.  I am most definitely going to pick up a HD3870 as soon as they come out.  If I'm lucky then, by Christmas I'll be able to get a second one and crossfire those puppies.  

Phew, I just cannot wait until those are released!

-Indybird


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well considering i had an 2900XT till the other week, i now know how much better the GT is, the new cards from ATI are 2900 xt's, they have the exact same specs bar the 55nm process and the currently useless 10.1 DX10 spec.


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## panchoman (Nov 12, 2007)

jc had a 2900xt & 8800gt as well, and he says differently then you..



> I have had both. There is not too much real world difference between them. The 8800GT edges the 2900 pro by around 2FPS in most games. Bioshock being the exception that I have seen with the 2900 decimating the 8800GT. Around a 15FPS edge for the 2900.
> 
> Really, it doesn't matter, which ever one is cheaper.


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## ghost101 (Nov 12, 2007)

3 HD3850s in trifire will cost the same as 2 8800GTs in SLI. Which one will win?


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## panchoman (Nov 12, 2007)

trifire... nice word lol..


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

Well i have the whole of the gaming press and their reviews to back me up. I can take bets that performance wise the top card the HD3870 will have similar performance to the 2900XT, the guy who admins the forum and works for the etailer where i get my gear from has them in stock and has confirmed this.


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## WhiteLotus (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> Well i have the whole of the gaming press and their reviews to back me up. I can take bets that performance wise the top card the HD3870 will have similar performance to the 2900XT, the guy who admins the forum and works for the etailer where i get my gear from has them in stock and has confirmed this.



well hurray for him. but i think i'll take JC view on the cards above. and as for the HD3870 those scores are impressive!


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## Completely Bonkers (Nov 12, 2007)

Decent performance for a mid card. The 2600 really failed to deliver. Glad to see the new 3850 can pump some decent frames.

AGP please.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> Well considering i had an 2900XT till the other week, i now know how much better the GT is, the new cards from ATI are 2900 xt's, they have the exact same specs bar the 55nm process and the currently *useless 10.1 DX10 spec*.




when 8800'a were on the street and no dx10 games last year or whenever i couldve said the same thing, stop the trolling and cut.


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## indybird (Nov 12, 2007)

Ooh, I got all hyped there then took another look at the graphs (those graphs are very decieving).  In those benchmarks it actually _isn't_ doing that much better than the HD2900XT.  Damn.  These better be bad benchmarks because, if AMD has failed again, then I'm going to be kinda mad.  The 8800GT is nice and the price is right, but nowadays I want a lot more performance for $250.

-Indybird


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## panchoman (Nov 12, 2007)

taking a look at the last 2 graphs again, it seems like the 3850 does a lot better then the 2900xt at higher resolutions..


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## WarEagleAU (Nov 12, 2007)

Respectable performance to say the least. Honestly, Id like to see a better and bigger jump in performance out of the red camp, the 8800GT is just doing what the DX10 cards should HAVE been doing.


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## imperialreign (Nov 12, 2007)

if nothing else, it appears that this card should take the claim for it's price-tier - hopefully the initial drivers with the cards release won't be another 2900 fiasco.

I agree, ATI needs to kick it up a notch again - they got a little complacent after the release and success of the 1950s, IMO.


EDIT> got to thinking about it - I can't pass judgement on this cards performance until it's released.  Internal benchmarking by ATI is like optimized drivers to nVidia.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

ARTT said:


> well hurray for him. but i think i'll take JC view on the cards above. and as for the HD3870 those scores are impressive!





Ok, lets look at this, the graph below shows the 3870 v the 2900xt, lol at the exaggerated graph sizes for a 4fps difference  looking at these results tells me this a 2900xt with faster memory giving it the edge and not by much, now do you see? but lets reserve judgment until the proper reviews come out


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## WhiteLotus (Nov 12, 2007)

i will take the point that the scales need some work - but if this card is what it says it is and priced at what they say it will be then that is one good deal.


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## Ketxxx (Nov 12, 2007)

Why are they comparing a 3850 against a 8600GTS


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## panchoman (Nov 12, 2007)

Ketxxx said:


> Why are they comparing a 3850 against a 8600GTS



thats what i thought, i thought it was suppossed to be against a 8800gt...


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Nov 12, 2007)

Ketxxx said:


> Why are they comparing a 3850 against a 8600GTS



same price point.


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## Ketxxx (Nov 12, 2007)

Bah, to price point. If a 3850 cant be significantly faster than a 86GTS, then its a POS. The only saving graces the 3850 may have in its favour is the new cards require more CPU power than nvidias to unlock their full power, and they may currently be clocked quite low.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

The only redeeming aspects i can see from this new launch from ATI is the triple and quad card xfire possiblilites, granted this feature will probably not interest most people but depending on performance, it may be good, its  a shame ATI wont compete with the GT this time round, i find it strange they feel the need to give these cards a completely different name change for similar performance to the previous tech, i suppose the 2900 did not get received very well and so ATI are trying to disassociate it from the 3xx series as much as possible, shame the performance difference is not there.


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

Lets get back to the real world, with those who thing the 8800GT is the new stomping ground video card....

Firstly the 8800GTS beats it in high resolutions, the 8800GTX beats it across the boards, and in some applications and games the 2900XT whoops down on the 8800GTX.

Want to know real performance.... Tell your game developers to start devolving for more than nvidia.

As for these results... I will be waiting for these cards to come out, probably end up with a 3870.


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## Airbrushkid (Nov 12, 2007)

The developers right now are developing for the winning team!


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Nov 12, 2007)

Airbrushkid said:


> The developers right now are developing for the *paying *team!




fixed for accuracy


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

Airbrushkid said:


> The developers right now are developing for the winning team!



What a noobish thing to say...

Maybe you should look into the performance people are getting in design applications with a FireGL flashed 2600xt, give you a hint they are EATING up 8800GTS...

Want a piece of reality?

Ohh forget...
My 2600xt gddr4 is faster than my friends 8600GTS in dx10 games... 
He is kinda pissed about that especially being my 2600xt was about $75 cheaper.

Or how about the fact of a few Nvidia sided games the 2900XT is FASTER than the 8800GTX...

If you want to go further...
ATI 2900XT holds the top 5 world records for 3dmark06.

I am STILL willing to buy nvidia after all these FACTS.


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> fixed for accuracy



  
  

You really overdid yourself there... Let the truth be known...


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## Dandel (Nov 12, 2007)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> fixed for accuracy



+1, i can't agree more... just look at the bugs in some titles that are meant to be played on nvidia hardware, when you have an ATI video card.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

> Or how about the fact of a few Nvidia sided games the 2900XT is FASTER than the 8800GTX...



LMAO, get real, lets have some links up, the XT sucks when compared to the GT and GTX, or maybe you are blinded by the many reviews out there confirming this, the 2900 sucks with AA as will the 3xxx series, DX10 is a joke at the moment on ATI cards, all facts.

Oh look the 2900 holds a record for 3DM06, well screw games performance then, ill get it for. 06.


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dandel said:


> +1, i can't agree more... just look at the bugs in some titles that are meant to be played on nvidia hardware, when you have an ATI video card.



The ever so wonderful 8800 stutter issue in games programmed FOR that card.

PS- to those that don't know...

Programming specifically for a video card can lead to over 300% performance increase, has been known, has been proven.


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## brian.ca (Nov 12, 2007)

panchoman said:


> thats what i thought, i thought it was suppossed to be against a 8800gt...



The numbering is pretty wonky but I think these cards, including the 3870, are actually the upgrades to the x600 series (the middle end / mainstream cards).  So performance and price wise the AMD positions them to go against the 8600 cards from Nvidia.

Not sure if the card coming out in dec/jan with the two GPUs on one card is supposed to be the 8800s competition.


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> LMAO, get real, lets have some links up, the XT sucks when compared to the GT and GTX, or maybe you are blinded by the many reviews out there confirming this, the 2900 sucks with AA as will the 3xxx series, DX10 is a joke at the moment on ATI cards, all facts.
> 
> Oh look the 2900 holds a record for 3DM06, well screw games performance then, ill get it for. 06.



Sorry buddy, your posts here don't hold much power... For the people that have been around and active have heard from many people...

Talk about my experiences...

In the past 3 months, I have built 9 systems with 8800's and 11 with 2900s.
I have not only read, I have personally seen and experienced.

Want to keep reading reviews, you know I actually came by one that said a 8600GTS is direct competition for a 2900XT?!?!?! Lol funny the nvidia boys there said nah the 8600gts whoops it..


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

on a side note...alot of ppl in these forums talk about the ps3 graphics sucks compared to the 360....if it does....umm ati makes the 360 gpu...and nvidia makes the ps3s....

anyways the 3850 was designed to go against the 8600gt...and i believe the 3870 the gts's...nvidia got wind of the 3870s and its possible clock speeds and bumped up the release of the 8800gt's....second i believe that the 38xx will be better in power efficiency and will cost less.IMHO. i believe that DAAMIT's design are better off in the long run...


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

also there have been numerous reports of these 8800gt's failing like xboxs, i am not biased towards ati either because i will be getting it for my c2d rig and i will be getting the 3870 for my phenom rig


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## kwchang007 (Nov 12, 2007)

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if 8800 gt prices come down some.  Then if they launched a new 8600 gts...so while this is a good card...maybe Nvidia will slap together a new 8600 gts while they're working on the 8800 gts.  Just a thought there, because it seems like they've been really trying to get 65 nm out there.  But for now, the Dx10 stuff looks really good...too bad they didn't put the 2900 xt there, I'm just plain to lazy to look for results for the 2900 lol.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

niko084 said:


> Sorry buddy... lots of babbling





I don't care what my posts mean to you, i post the facts and can back them up, still no links? i rest my case, carry on with the babbling. Its obvious your truly in one camp here and it ain't the green one, i was with ATI and the 2900 but I'm now with the green camp because that's where the performance is at, fact, live with it.



> that the 38xx will be better in power efficiency and will cost less.IMHO. i believe that DAAMIT's design are better off in the long run...



The 3870 will be priced at the same level as the 8800GT, your happy with a card that uses a few less watts than the card that gives you the better games performance? all so the 3870 will be a dual slot cooling design, compared the the GT's single slot.


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## Lopez0101 (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't think the console comparison is really necessary. Although if you think about it if Nvidia is doing all the right things in graphic performance than shouldn't the PS3 be outdoing the 360 with it's ATi made hardware? It could be because of programming and the lack thereof for some PS3 games. But then doesn't that bring in the point that if a game was programmed specifically for certain hardware the performance increase would be massive. So I think ATi is doing fairly well for all this onslaught of the WIMTBP campaign that Nvidia is doing, at least if the developers actually code the game to run better on Nvidia hardware.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> I don't care what my posts mean to you, i post the facts and can back them up, still no links? i rest my case, carry on with the babbling. Its obvious your truly in one camp here and it ain't the green one, i was with ATI and the 2900 but I'm now with the green camp because that's where the performance is at, fact, live with it.
> 
> 
> 
> The 3870 will be priced at the same level as the 8800GT, your happy with a card that uses a few less watts than the card that gives you the better games performance? *all so the 3870 will be a dual slot cooling design, compared the the GT's single slot*.



you must be a dimwit.

dual cooling on a cooler card = more OC headroom if all things remain equal ... goddamm


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## Lopez0101 (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> all so the 3870 will be a dual slot cooling design, compared the the GT's single slot.



What's wrong with a big stock cooler. Won't need a new cooler as soon if you want to overclock the card.

The thing that annoys me is that the 3850 probably won't cost as much as my 2900XT did and it looks like it will perform better in a few things.


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

Lopez0101 said:


> I don't think the console comparison is really necessary. Although if you think about it if Nvidia is doing all the right things in graphic performance than shouldn't the PS3 be outdoing the 360 with it's ATi made hardware? It could be because of programming and the lack thereof for some PS3 games. But then doesn't that bring in the point that if a game was programmed specifically for certain hardware the performance increase would be massive. So I think ATi is doing fairly well for all this onslaught of the WIMTBP campaign that Nvidia is doing, at least if the developers actually code the game to run better on Nvidia hardware.



my point exactly...and yes efficiency goes a long way...especially when you pay electric bills ...
anyways my ps3 360 comparison was for the fanbois of both camp...
and personally i hope the 3870s do extremely well because then that will lower the gt's prices by far...im sick of this gouging affair by many etailers...especially newegg.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

[I.R.A]_FBi said:


> you must be a dimwit.
> 
> dual cooling on a cooler card = more OC headroom if all things remain equal ... goddamm



You sir are the dumb one.

LMAO, dual slot cooling on a card that cant even beat the previous tech and is on a smaller process than the GT, dream on if you think the overclocks on this thing is going to get you substantial increase in fps, because it sure as hell didnt on the 2900. I can see potential 3870 buyers now, " it has a dual slot cooler, hey it may suck at stock speeds but we can overclock it and gain 9fps " GT is single slot cooling, more space in the case and great performance to boot, mmm whats the better design.


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## wazzledoozle (Nov 12, 2007)

AMD is screwed. Phenom not even close to matching Intel, now ATI cant take Nvidia. :shadedshu sad sad day.

The 3870 might be an alright card, if it's priced reasonably. But isn't it a dual-gpu card? The power draw will be insane.


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## kwchang007 (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> You sir are the dumb one.
> 
> LAMO, dual slot cooling on a card that cant even beat the previous tech and is on a smaller process than the GT, dream on if you think the overclocks on this thing is going to get you substantial increase in fps, because it sure as hell didnt on the 2900. I can see potential 3870 buyers now, " it has a dual slot cooler, hey it may suck at stock speeds but we can overclock it and gain 9fps " GT is single slot cooling, more space in the case and great performance to boot, mmm whats the better design.



Hey man first off calm down.  Second IRA said ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.  Now honestly, if you have a heat source that's giving out the same amount of heat etc etc which do you think is going to run better?  A bigger heatsink with a bigger fan....or a smaller heatsink with a smaller fan.  If you say smaller....well then I really have nothing to say to you.  But on the other hand, I thought that the 38** will be on a smaller fabrication size....maybe that's the next gen.  Anyways look at price point, if prices stay where they are, then this card is poised to sit in between the 8600/2600 and the 8800 gt.  Given it's performance for that balance....that's really good.


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## Lopez0101 (Nov 12, 2007)

Unless they shrink the die on the 3850 it'll be 90nm like the 2900XT. I can OC my 2900XT a lot more than I could my X800XT with an aftermarket dual slot cooler. The 2900 has a lot of headroom for OC'ing and I don't see any reason why the 3850 wouldn't. 

Also when you're going on about links this and links that. Well why don't you get some links to some benchmarks. You'll be hard pressed to find reliable ones where the 2900XT doesn't beat the 8800GTS 640mb in the majority of tests and the 8800GTX in a few (At least a recent one, not a year old one.) If the 8800GT is so great why doesn't it beat the GTX?


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## wazzledoozle (Nov 12, 2007)

It's R600 on a 55nm die shrink. Not next-gen at all, just revision 2. Think X1800>X1900, but not even close to the performance benefits. DX10.1 differences are yet to be seen, but its pretty obvious already that DX10 offers no performance benefits at the same quality settings.


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## wazzledoozle (Nov 12, 2007)

Lopez0101 said:


> Unless they shrink the die on the 3850 it'll be 90nm like the 2900XT. I can OC my 2900XT a lot more than I could my X800XT with an aftermarket dual slot cooler. The 2900 has a lot of headroom for OC'ing and I don't see any reason why the 3850 wouldn't.
> 
> Also when you're going on about links this and links that. Well why don't you get some links to some benchmarks. You'll be hard pressed to find reliable ones where the 2900XT doesn't beat the 8800GTS 640mb in the majority of tests and the 8800GTX in a few (At least a recent one, not a year old one.) If the 8800GT is so great why doesn't it beat the GTX?



If you're trying to claim the 2900 is faster than the 8800GTS and sometimes GTX, then you need to provide proof. I have not seen any such comprehensive test that came out in favor of the 2900.


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## Lopez0101 (Nov 12, 2007)

Sorry, the 2900XT is 80nm.

Also, comparisons between the 2900XT and the GTX are irrelevant. The GTX SHOULD beat the 2900, it costs more. But when the 2900XT meets or beats at some game benchmarks then that is a different story.

There is always the OpenGL benchmark for the Fur shading.
http://www.dailytech.com/ati+radeon+hd+2900+xt+performance+benchmarks/article7043.htm - This is from April 2007
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=30179&highlight=HD2900XT+benchmarks - From May
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_8800_gt_performance/page5.asp - About the 8800GT but it shows the 2900XT generally meets or beat the 8800GTS 640mb most of the time, losing a little.

It's hard to find recent benchmarks with newer drivers.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

kwchang007 said:


> I thought that the 38** will be on a smaller fabrication size....maybe that's the next gen.




It is on the 55nm process, Nvidia is on the 65nm with the GT and can still push out a high performance card on a single slot design, it will all come clear when the benches are out, people who decide to go with ATI after the reviews and are after good game performance at a good price  really show way to much loyalty to one company, no matter how poorly it performs.


> wazzledoozle;529254]It's R600 on a 55nm die shrink. Not next-gen at all, just revision 2. Think X1800>X1900, but not even close to the performance benefits



QFT


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## kwchang007 (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> It is on the 55nm process, Nvidia is on the 65nm with the GT and can still push out a high performance card on a single slot design, it will all come clear when the benches are out, people who decide to go with ATI after the reviews and are after good game performance at a good price  really show way to much loyalty to one company, no matter how it performs.



Well not neccesarily.  Perhaps they just don't have the money for the 8800 gt.  Maybe they're looking for a hold over card til the next high end.  Maybe they don't run really high resolutions.  Maybe this will be a huge suprise and the 3850 will rip apart the 8800 we don't know right now.  It's in development, which includes drivers.  But then again the 8800's drivers aren't the best right now.  I think we're going to see final results in a month or two.  But they are pretty close and let me put it this way, I wouldn't sacrifice pieces of a build to get a 8800 gt, but if I had the $50 I would get the 8800 gt.  That's how I'm going to put it...it's how much money you have.

Big edit: Not about the subject, just that I hope this doesn't get to out of hand, it's not that bad now but I do realize my post could be taken the wrong way.  I just want to let everyone know I am not trying to insult anyone by disproving what they say but just stating my opinion.  And yeah I realize there are fan boys out there...me being one of them (my intel/amd set up is really nice to me) but just try to keep your minds open people, please and thank you.


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## Ketxxx (Nov 12, 2007)

niko084 said:


> The ever so wonderful 8800 stutter issue in games programmed FOR that card.
> 
> PS- to those that don't know...
> 
> Programming specifically for a video card can lead to over 300% performance increase, has been known, has been proven.



Proof in point, lets take a "generic" bottom-out figure of 40FPS, assume the maximum 300% perf increase, and wham, just like that you got 160FPS.


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## wazzledoozle (Nov 12, 2007)

It's kind of pointless to argue right now, when they aren't released to retail yet. Once they are we can have some conclusive benchmarks with recent drivers. I'm sure places like Anandtech will round up the 8800, 2900 and now the 38xx series.

Ultimately it comes down to price. Look at the Wii vs the 360 and PS3. If AMD can build these for less than their Nvidia counterparts, then the OEM's will keep ATI's income flowing.


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

wazzledoozle said:


> It's kind of pointless to argue right now, when they aren't released to retail yet. Once they are we can have some conclusive benchmarks with recent drivers. I'm sure places like Anandtech will round up the 8800, 2900 and now the 38xx series.



these cards are suppose to be released da 15th right...man i gotta busy schedule...crysis, nfs, assassins creed, wwe, orange box, 8800 gt, 3870, phenom,790fx, gps sys, 500gb hdd or raptor 150gb, a 180p receiver, xfi sound  card....damn i think im at like 2 grand n counting


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## wazzledoozle (Nov 12, 2007)

Lopez0101 said:


> Sorry, the 2900XT is 80nm.
> 
> Also, comparisons between the 2900XT and the GTX are irrelevant. The GTX SHOULD beat the 2900, it costs more. But when the 2900XT meets or beats at some game benchmarks then that is a different story.
> 
> ...



Looks like a mixed bag. In some cases, it performs terribly. In others, it's about even or slightly better. The problem there is that, these new cards aren't even as good as the 2900XT.

IDK when they are supposed to be released.


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

Lopez0101 said:


> Sorry, the 2900XT is 80nm.
> 
> Also, comparisons between the 2900XT and the GTX are irrelevant. The GTX SHOULD beat the 2900, it costs more. But when the 2900XT meets or beats at some game benchmarks then that is a different story.
> 
> ...



Is that the best you got? where this GTX killer you keep going on about, now i could come back with tons of reviews with up to date drivers showing the 2900 lagging badly bar some tests, without cherry picking tests or reviews :shadedshu  but you probably know that so i wont bother.

Ah, what the hell, GT v 2900XT/AMD: Catalyst 7.10

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3140&p=10


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## zOaib (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> Well considering i had an 2900XT till the other week, i now know how much better the GT is, the new cards from ATI are 2900 xt's, they have the exact same specs bar the 55nm process and the currently useless 10.1 DX10 spec.



I Bought a 8800 gt to replace my hd 2900 xt 1 gb , BIG MISTAKE ........... the 8800 gt died on crysis 1600 x 1200 and it only ran decent on 1024 x 768 res with high settings , my 2900 xt was runnign crysis silky at my 28inch max resolution and with 4x AA and high settings , 35-42 fps , 8800 gt was giving me only 15-18 fps ............... and i honestly bought the 8800 gt's benchmarks that it slaughters 8800 gts which i used to own too .......... anyways i go with what works best for what i wanna use it for , and my hd 2900 xt has not let me down yet ! period !


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

wazzledoozle said:


> Looks like a mixed bag. In some cases, it performs terribly. In others, it's about even or slightly better. The problem there is that, these new cards aren't even as good as the 2900XT.
> 
> IDK when they are supposed to be released.



as stated by DAAMIT themselves...these cards are better performers than the 2900xt...i belive that they are...because i believe all the bad with the xts were probably ironed out in this one...i also believe that is what a revision is suppose to be...that is why the g92 is so good... next we are all pawns because these companies knows what they are doing... its called strategic planning... and we the consumers always buy into this kind of hype...who's to say that these companies dont have their pawns watching us flare up back and forth


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

h3r3 it goes again...the g92s are faulty to a degree...and honestly too many people have complained about these cards dying on em...amd ftw... if if brings a better end result from both companies...
on a side note... whether ati wins or not i still think that it will self no matter what ...us enthusiaSS lol are a vast minority....


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## indybird (Nov 12, 2007)

Heres what I've noticed from what I've noticed in reviews and from people I know.
8800GTX>2900XT _most _of the time
8800GTX>8800GT @ mid to high resolutions
8800GTS=2900XT almost all the time

Anyway, I'm hoping for the best in saying that either those benchmarks aren't done right or the drivers were not optimized at all.

I really hope the HD3870 is an ownage card.  Just as long as it could compete with/slightly beat an 8800GTX, I will be more than satisfied.  When ever I've looked for an upgrade I want an nvidia card for a while, then ATI comes through for me right in the end I go their way.

-Indybird


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## crow1001 (Nov 12, 2007)

indybird said:


> I really hope the HD3870 is an ownage card.  Just as long as it could compete with/slightly beat an 8800GTX
> 
> -Indybird



Hope is all you got mate, because the reality is the 3870 is just a 2900XT in sheep's clothing.


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## zOaib (Nov 12, 2007)

well i guess i was not the only one with this problem with the 8800 gt in crysis


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

crow1001 said:


> Hope is all you got mate, because the reality is the 3870 is just a 2900XT in sheep's clothing.



im tired of ppl bashing the 2900 xt....that card is awesome...its main downfall is its late release...expected due to the merger of ati and amd... second the xt is a solid card...even anandtech and techpowerup has confirmed this...also these two sites have also confirmed that in many instances the card is not being fully utilized...one thing can come to mind is the games being optimized for nvidia...the technology of the r600 is far superior to that of the g80/92...daamits technology is definately built for the future...not to say nvidia is not aiming for the same...but there is more areas for advancement for the r600 archi than the g80


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

We will have to wait to see what happens here with these new cards..

Don't ever take benchmarks or silly little reviews for granted...
Everything is FAR to unstable..

I have heard of people with 2900xt's that cannot run Crysis in anything over 1024x768 with low settings to try to keep above 40fps... Then again I can play dx10 on my 2600xt with all medium and a few high settings and average 40fps.

Then again I built a machine that ran max settings with a 2900xt that gave a smooth 40fps at 1280x1024.

It's a big mess... Anyway you look at it, buy what you want, can afford for what you use and personally like... Being a fanboy is stupid... People need to stop being so ignorant. People here have had such issues with 1950pro's that they went back to 6800xt's *can you imagine?*

Nvidia/Ati
It's like
Intel/AMD

When you get the top you get the top and it "can" go either way and it does.

Beyond that, people slam on ATI WAY too much, remember even if they are slower on average *which they are*, the games are built to run on Nvidia cards NOT Ati. So who is really building a superior card? Nobody knows, and there is no way to truly tell as of now.

HD3850 will rock stomp a 8600gt or 8600gts, its good competition between a 2600xt and a 8600gt in dx9 and in dx10 I am yet to see a 8600gts beat a 2600xt. Add the better gpu and take into consideration the 256bit mem bus and the 8600's are gone with the wind.

HD3870, well we will just have to see what happens when they are full release.


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## devguy (Nov 12, 2007)

Wow, some serious arguing going on here.  I thought I would add some info into the mix without going fanboyish in any way.

First, the 3850 is meant to compete with the 8600gts.  It should be priced around the same, yet hopefully deliver the performance of the HD 2900GT with 1/2 the power consumption, only have a 6 pin pcie power connector (instead of 1 8 pin), and be single slot cooled.  As those graphs illustrate, the 3850 dominates the 8600gts.  I would then expect the HD 2600 series to become the low end ATI cards, and the HD 2400 series to become integrated into motherboards.

It is the HD 3870 whose job is to compete with the 8800GT, not the 3850.  Don't confuse the two!  I don't know much about the 3870 (therefore I cannot say if it will have half the power consumption as the 2900xt, or what power connectors it will use), but it does seem that it will retain a dual slot cooler.  Note: dual slot cooler != running extremely hot.  Also, how will the performance of this card be?  I don't believe any of us are in a position to answer that beyond speculation.  I will be interested to see cooling and noise benchmarks of the slot coolers for the HD 38xx vs 8800GT when they are all out on the market.

As for current cards, it seems that with up to date drivers, HD 2900XT gDDR3 roughly compares pretty well with the 8800GTS 640mb (it beats it in some tests, looses in others, but they roughly match out to the same are in the same pricing arena).  The 8800GTX/Ultra typically dominate all their competitors.  Whoppity-doo, do you expect any less from the prices being asked for them?!  The 8800GT seems to perform above the 8800gts 640mb, but below the 8800GTX, yet costs much less.

Also to add, to know just how closely related the HD 38xx series is to the HD 2900XT, pay attention to the performance of the cards after AA is enabled.  The 2900XT seems to become less competitive after doing that.  If the newer ones don't, then they are probably more than just the "R600" die shrink Nvidia fanboys are claiming it to be.

Finally, if you remember, when the 8800 series first came out, purchasers of it liked to gloat against ATI owners because they had DirectX 10 support when they didn't.  However, how long afterwards was the first DirectX 10 game released that wasn't just a patched DirectX 9 game?  After the HD 2900XT, launch, that is for sure.  Therefore, I believe history will repeat itself with select ATI owners gloating about having DirectX 10.1 support while Nvidia owners don't, when the first decent DirectX 10.1 games probably won't be released before Nvidia releases their own DirectX 10.1 card (something even further evidenced by the increasing "The Way It's Meant to be Played" campaign).

End of rant...

Edit:  Sorry to add more... I don't believe the 3870 will have two cores/be crossfire on a card.  I think that will be a separate card called the 3870x2.  Also, ATI will continue to dominate in the AGP market, which refuses to go away.


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

Now what I am curious to see are some benchmarks with a quad crossfire setup 

Thats where the pwnage of no space for a sound card will come! lol


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2007)

uh, if it was to compete with the 8600 it would be known as a 3620 or something like that not 3850, 3850 is a 3870 with lower price.


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## niko084 (Nov 12, 2007)

eidairaman1 said:


> uh, if it was to compete with the 8600 it would be known as a 3620 or something like that not 3850, 3850 is a 3870 with lower price.



Its price is in the same zone which give the direct competition...
But here ATI destroys the competition.


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## imperialreign (Nov 12, 2007)

> Is that the best you got? where this GTX killer you keep going on about, now i could come back with tons of reviews with up to date drivers showing the 2900 lagging badly bar some tests, without cherry picking tests or reviews  but you probably know that so i wont bother.
> 
> Ah, what the hell, GT v 2900XT/AMD: Catalyst 7.10
> 
> http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3140&p=10




so, how many reviews have you run across where they compare the 2900 to a GT for every single Catalyst release?  The card's performance continues to improve with each new driver.  Sure, ATI screwed up releasing a card with flaky drivers, but it looks as though they won't be making that mistake again.

Simply put, most of the reviews comparing the 2900 to competitive hardware are old and outdated, another majority of reviews only use the drivers right out of the box, and yet, how many more review(er)s are typically green-sided?  Case-in-point, if I open a review and see _*anywhere*_ on that page an advertisement for either nVidia or ATI, the review is worthless, IMO.

It's funny how the reviews say one thing, but owners report entirelly different results.





. . . and somehow I forsee this thread getting locked down . . . :shadedshu


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## Darkmag (Nov 12, 2007)

eidairaman1 said:


> uh, if it was to compete with the 8600 it would be known as a 3620 or something like that not 3850, 3850 is a 3870 with lower price.



The 3850 is the midrange card of the HD 38XX family, like how the 2600 was the "midrange" of the HD2xxx family. The HD 3870 is the Highend card. 

If we assume that these benchies are correct it means that the 3850 evenly competes with the HD2900XT we can therefore assume that the 3870 will be faster than the HD2900XT which means that it will compete with the GT/GTX.

These cards are refreshers as the R680 will launch beginning next year and the R700 at the end of 2008.

IMO ATI f***K up the R600 just like how nVidia did with the FX. and nVidia came back strong becuase _necessity is the mother of invention
_


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## TiKKa (Nov 12, 2007)

*Yeah But*



zekrahminator said:


> Well, the charts speak for themselves really. The 3850, which should be less than $200USD when it is released later this month, completely slaughters the intended competition, which includes the HD 2600XT, and the NVIDIA GeForce 8600GTS. The 3850 also holds it's own against the HD 2900XT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two cards in Crossfire  on Crysis and you don't get over 30 FPS...Seriously why would you bother?


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## wickerman (Nov 12, 2007)

The biggest problem lies with the architecture path that ATI has chosen. Nvidia's Scalar MADD+MUL architecture is nothing like the Superscalar MADDx5 architecture ATI is using. On paper ATIs can look stronger, but comparing the two architectures even on paper is not a safe thing to do because they are nothing alike. ATI may have more ALUs for example, but NVidias run at twice the speed, but then again the each unit in the superscalar architecture can do more independent instructions at a time. 

ATIs weak point right now is really that its architecture requires highly optimized drivers, and your games need to be designed with this type of architecture in mind. If your application and driver are not constantly generating as many independent instructions as possible all the time, the execution units in this architecture are being left idle, and you have terrible efficiency and this impacts performance. Nvidias scalar architecture does not have this limitation, because its more flexible because in a lot of applications your next command often relies on the previous one, and you dont always need or can generate 5 independent operations. You can look to this to understand why ATI is often improving performance with every driver release instead of just improving compatibility with games. And it can also explain why at its best, the hd2900xt was able to beat the 8800GTX, yet at its worst the hd2900xt wasnt even able to beat the x1950xtx. 
Another thing to remember is that with these architectures ATI is basically focusing all their power on raw shader power for which it is significantly faster than even the 8800 ultra for shader operations per second, yet it neglects things like pixel fillrate and texture fillrate. R600 only has 16 ROPs and 16 TMUs, compared to G80s 32 TMUs and 24 ROPs.

Its always going to boil down to case by case comparison, some games will run better now on G80/G92 others right now may run better on R600/RV670...who knows about tomorrow, maybe in a year ATI's architecture will show its full power, maybe not. Maybe ATI's will prove stronger with the  professional segment where AMD wants it, and us gamers will have to make due with acceptable performance, or go to the competition. 

What you have to remember is the difference between the fastest, and whats fast enough. Does an hd2900xt play most if not all games at high resolutions while keeping playable FPS? Yea. Will the new HD38x0 series? Yea. Is the 8800 series faster? More often than not yea... Will people pay more for a faster card? You bet your ass, but should ATI expect strong sales from something slower? No reason why they shouldnt. If they can get close to HD2900xt performance from a $150-$200 card range than thats a huge plus. The HD2900 pro sold VERY well at $250 for just this reason. 

If ATI can make some further optimizations to the RV670 and related architectures, such as improving their shader recompiler, driver/application optimization, improving their texture dispatch processing, etc then they stand to gain solid ground. How many people believed the 8800GT would get close to the GTX performance? It wasnt hard when you know how to make a good thing better. 

ATI and Nvidia have always, and will always trade the performance crown back and forth. One company will have the superior performance for one or two generations, then the other company will take that lead. If you look here and now your wasting as much time as you are money. Buy the cheapest card you can that remains "fast enough" and upgrade it two or more times a year. Buying 1 big expensive card and hoping it lasts you 2 years might work, but its usually gunna hit its peak long before then. Premium cards never stay on their pedestal for more than a year, and high end cards are lucky to get half that. Upgrade to the best value and upgrade often.

*edit*
And to fuel the fire a bit, take a look at some other numbers, namely the 3870:
twrococ.com


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## TiKKa (Nov 12, 2007)

Opps i didn't read things propper like....... my bad


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## laszlo (Nov 12, 2007)

wickerman said:


> The biggest problem lies with the architecture path that ATI has chosen.
> 
> 
> I agree 100% and i hope they change something soon.


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## tostator (Nov 12, 2007)

Great discourse, wickerman!!!!


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## tkpenalty (Nov 12, 2007)

Darkmag said:


> The 3850 is the midrange card of the HD 38XX family, like how the 2600 was the "midrange" of the HD2xxx family. The HD 3870 is the Highend card.
> 
> If we assume that these benchies are correct it means that the 3850 evenly competes with the HD2900XT we can therefore assume that the 3870 will be faster than the HD2900XT which means that it will compete with the GT/GTX.
> 
> ...



Yep... urged to pick their act up. Nvidia were acting all lazy and trying new methods back on 02~03, stuff that wouldnt work right. They got whooped bigtime, then they put all their effort into improving.


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## sam0t (Nov 12, 2007)

I will take dual slot cooler anyday over single slot ones if it means that the card will run cool and silently. 8800 stock cooler seems to do loysy job in cooling the card, on the other hand 3870 seems to have excelent stock cooler. I´ll wait and see for the proper benchmarks/reviews.

Fact is that you cannot go wrong with either card, this is what the true mid range cards should be.


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## Scrizz (Nov 12, 2007)

I mainly go ATI b/c of the A/V features those cards have.


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## tkpenalty (Nov 12, 2007)

sam0t said:


> I will take dual slot cooler anyday over single slot ones if it means that the card will run cool and silently. 8800 stock cooler seems to do loysy job in cooling the card, on the other hand 3870 seems to have excelent stock cooler. I´ll wait and see for the proper benchmarks/reviews.
> 
> Fact is that you cannot go wrong with either card, this is what the true mid range cards should be.



Hah, you are somewhat ignorant! That HD3870 cooler is satisfactory, a copper block with fins, by far one of the worst cooler designs. I mean the air resistance must be absolutely huge. Its in no way a good cooler at all. Dual slot doesnt mean good, its the way that they design the cooler that counts.


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## Morgoth (Nov 12, 2007)

Completely Bonkers said:


> Decent performance for a mid card. The 2600 really failed to deliver. Glad to see the new 3850 can pump some decent frames.
> 
> AGP please.



yea agp plz  2900


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## happita (Nov 12, 2007)

tkpenalty said:


> Hah, you are somewhat ignorant! That HD3870 cooler is satisfactory, a copper block with fins, by far one of the worst cooler designs. I mean the air resistance must be absolutely huge. Its in no way a good cooler at all. Dual slot doesnt mean good, its the way that they design the cooler that counts.



Agreed. That's why third-party companies develop much better aftermarket coolers for components. AMD/nVidia/Intel, their main concern is the performance of the product, THEN comes cooling. 
However this isn't always the case, companies like Sapphire, BFG, etc. that make GPU's based on nVidia/ATI chipsets make custom coolers as well to provide to the enthusiast market. Hence stock coolers from AMD/nVidia/Intel are crap the majority of the time.


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## wickerman (Nov 12, 2007)

Its no secrete, AMD wants single slot cooling with their reference design so they can push quad crossfire, which you couldnt do with each card taking up 2 slots. I am reluctant to deal with single slot coolers on the high end of things as well, you just dont get the surface area a lot of these cards need to remain efficient, and you have to reply on a tiny little hamster wheel blower fan to push enough air, and those thing just loud when you go past a certain range. But this isnt exactly a new design, hell Nvidia used this same type of heatsink for its 6800 series, 7800 series, and although it looks different...the 8800GT uses a similar style.

But you also have to remember that before these heatsink designs are approved these cards go through simulation testing and realtime testing to verify that the heatsink can provide the right cooling power. So basically these cards are tested inside and oven that is heated to within a few degrees of the failing point and if it cant provide enough cooling power, they go to the next design. To think that they just pick a heatsink out of a hat and throw it on a card is just silly, you dont trust your whole product platform too a chunk of copper and a 22 cent fan.
3rd parties change the cooling to distinguish themselves from one another, each company has its fine print that states they will not cover any damages done to the card due to running it out of specification or any physical modifications done to the card. But they know your gunna overclock em, and if they can put a good cooler and the card it rules you having to change the cooler, because when your removing a cooler and adding a new one, thats usually when people damage the card, either by improperly mounting the heatsink, chipping the core, knocking a capacitor loose, etc.

But knowing that these companies (all all companies) are ready and willing to cut cost at any corner they can, its easy to understand that sometimes your gunna get the cheapest and most simple heatsink thats gunna do the job, because its easier to make than a big elaborate 3 heatpipe copper monster like the stock hd2900 series heatsink


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## 15th Warlock (Nov 12, 2007)

All I can say is, what a terrible, terrible naming convention. I mean, it's really nice to see AMD putting pressure on nVidia if this card is supposed to compete with the 8600, but, come on, naming your mainstream part 3850 and your flagship 3870 really is bound to cause a lot of trouble.

Both Ati and nVidia PR departments should be fired... What a mess up, so sad, seeing their latest cards having such price to performance ratios...


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## springs113 (Nov 12, 2007)

In regards to wickerman....and ati wanting to push single slots... i agree to a point...but
if you check...MSI has built a 790 board that will support 4 dual slot 3870s


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## -=CrAnSwIcK=- (Nov 14, 2007)

man, i know i'll be like the 10th person to say this, but some people on this forum are just too damn stupid, and narrow minded to believe ATI could overtake the almighty nvidia...basically here's how it is...HD 3850 will be in competition with 8600GTS and anything in that price bracket, bottomline, name and numbers mean nothing, if it costs the same they are competitors...also HD 3850 will go against the 256mb 8800gt, a battle i've yet to see...also these are next gen products, the mid range should always equal, surpass or at least keep up with the high end of the previous generation, hence the comparison with the 2900xt...same reason an 1600xt performs about the same as x850...and 2600xt was different it stumbled a bit, but it wasn't WAY behind the x1900...now we have 3850 clearly dominating the 8600gts...so we can assume the 3870 will be a tad faster, although to be a tad slower than the 8800gt at stock speeds, remember these new ATI cards are fabbed at 55nm, which means they should overclock better than 8800gt, as well the higher end 3870 has a dual slot cooler which would again allow for higher clocks.... let's not forget nvidia upped the clocks on the 8800gt before the launch, and that's why the damn things get so friggen hot...let's also remember that you can't friggin buy an 8800gt anymore cause they're sold out everywhere, and you nvidia fanboys who don't already have one, by the time you get your hands on an 8800gt, everyone who had the sense not to make judgments, and wait for the launch to see what's what will be playing UT3 and Crysis on their HD 38x0's and you'll be sitting on newegg.com hitting the refresh button over and over waiting for nvidia's next shipment...

oh and to the few people that said rv670 is an r600 with lower TDP...that doesn't even make sense...it's totally different, it's a new design...fabbed in a totally different place, at 55nm...it's like comparing a 7800gtx to an 8800gtx, and saying they are the same, except for power consumption...

and to all the performance crown junkies...stock speeds don't count...if you don't overclock, you're wasting your money...low power consumption goes hand in hand with heat output...and both of those relate directly to the size of the die...i don't foresee any throuble with an overclocked 3870 being able to surpass the 8800gt...the GT's run hot enough stock, i can't see an overclock helping it any...


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## Lopez0101 (Nov 14, 2007)

-=CrAnSwIcK=- said:


> . . .narrow minded to believe ATI could overtake the almighty nvidia...



Almighty. . . it was only a generation ago (Before the 8800 series) that ATi was the performance king, so I wouldn't exactly called Nvidia almighty. (Let's not forget the FX vs. 9x00 series)


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## -=CrAnSwIcK=- (Nov 14, 2007)

Lopez0101 said:


> Almighty. . . it was only a generation ago (Before the 8800 series) that ATi was the performance king, so I wouldn't exactly called Nvidia almighty. (Let's not forget the FX vs. 9x00 series)



was sarcasm aimed at the "nothing can beat nvidia" crowd...perhaps i should have included the ...excellent point though...laff...cheers


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## Lopez0101 (Nov 14, 2007)

Haha, yeah I couldn't really tell. It didn't really seem to make sense with the rest of what you were saying either.


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## -=CrAnSwIcK=- (Nov 14, 2007)

Lopez0101 said:


> Haha, yeah I couldn't really tell. It didn't really seem to make sense with the rest of what you were saying either.



don't get me wrong, the 8800gt IS an excellent video card...the only cons i can see are heat, and availability...and both of these areas is where HD 3870 should shine...


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