# Big money stays away from booming bitcoin



## FordGT90Concept (Oct 23, 2017)

LONDON (Reuters) - Bitcoin is booming, digital currency hedge funds are sprouting at the rate of two a week and the value of all cryptocurrencies has surged tenfold this year to more than $170 billion.

Yet for all the hype, mainstream institutional investors are steering clear of the nascent market, taking the view that it is too lightly regulated, too volatile and too illiquid to risk investing other people’s money in.

More at source...


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## cdawall (Oct 23, 2017)

What are they talking about? There is gobs of big wallstreet money playing the bitcoin market...


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 23, 2017)

> For now, those investing in crypto funds are high-net worth individuals, companies managing money for wealthy families, private wealth managers and some venture capital investors.


There's 111 hedge funds in BTC with total assets coming to about $2.2 billion of $100 billion.  In other words, companies investing other people's money in BTC accounts for only 2% of BTC's value.


> “If the supply is truly fixed then the price of these securities are determined purely by demand which, in turn, is determined largely by sentiment,” said Ken Dickson, investment director, money markets and FX at Aberdeen Standard Investments.
> 
> “This means huge price swings with bubbles, booms and busts. Unless the supply processes of these instruments are reformed then it is unlikely that they will play any part of an investment portfolio,” he said


It's too risky.


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## trog100 (Oct 24, 2017)

too risky for anyone that likes long term assets that are proven over time.. too profitable for them to maintain that stance for much longer though.. he he

trog


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Oct 24, 2017)

The UK financial watchdog has said that investors seeking to get into the world of cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin and Ethereum should approach the fast-growing Initial Coin Offerings sector with care.

The Financial Conduct Authority said ICOs were ‘high-risk’ investments since they come with no investor protection, their value is volatile and can often be linked to illegal schemes or fraud.

ICOs are not currently regulated, which means that if investors lend money to a fraudulent firm, they will be unable to recover it. In fact, the FCA warned that some companies issuing ICOs may be fraudulent.


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## jboydgolfer (Oct 24, 2017)

imo, The moment big$ puts a "green lght" on b¢,  is when it drops like a stone & reaches a much lower ppb¢


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## Aquinus (Oct 24, 2017)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> their value is volatile and can often be linked to illegal schemes or fraud.


That's why hedge funds are using it, right? What better way to make money than to manipulate the currency you're using?


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 24, 2017)

Martin Shkreli was a hedge fund manager...now convicted felon (securities fraud)...


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## R-T-B (Oct 25, 2017)

This is actually showing the majority of belief in btc is coming from individuals.

If anything, that adds to it's legitimacy.


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## Ebo (Oct 25, 2017)

If its cant be messured in gold like normal currency which is accepted arround the world, it has absolutely NO value at all.
If you allow compagnies to envent another crypto"f*ckup", for people to mine its all artificial and has NO base in reality, its just greed thats fuels the fire for its downfall.


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## R-T-B (Oct 25, 2017)

Ebo said:


> If its cant be messured in gold like normal currency which is accepted arround the world, it has absolutely NO value at all.



https://www.goldbroker.com/charts/gold-price/btc

You can exchange btc for gold as easily as currency.  I am unsure what gold has to do with legitimacy at all though.  Again, the gold standard died in the 60s over most of the world.

I can probably trade coconuts for gold too, if I had enough.


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## R0H1T (Oct 25, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> This is actually showing the majority of belief in btc is coming from individuals.
> 
> If anything, *that adds to it's legitimacy*.


Well previously we've also had collective amnesia, cluster*ck & a myriad of other disasters attributable to herd mentality. The 2008 meltdown was also not all banks & hedge funds' fault, a lot of the blame should go to individuals as well who borrowed way beyond their means!

The reason institutions, with a clear & well defined mandate, can't invest in BTC is because it's too volatile & still vaporware atm, no one can guarantee what it's price will be tomorrow & whether your BTC will even be in the wallet. Public or even private institutions cannot invest in such instruments where there's no redressal mechanism of any sort,* like* *who governs anything BTC when there's fraud involved*, especially if this thing's as uber global as it gets?


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## trog100 (Oct 25, 2017)

there is gold and there is paper comex gold.. one is real the other is not.. its said that for every once of real gold there are 200 paper ounces or 200 theoretical owners.. or the same once of gold has been sold to 200 different people..

central banks create fiat money out of thin air.. most of it ends up in the stock markets.. which is why stocks keep going up..

nothing is real any more.. the entire financial system is based on one huge fraud.. he he..

trog


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## R-T-B (Oct 25, 2017)

R0H1T said:


> Well previously we've also had collective amnesia, cluster*ck & a myriad of other disasters attributable to herd mentality. The 2008 meltdown was also not all banks & hedge funds' fault, a lot of the blame should go to individuals as well who borrowed way beyond their means!
> 
> The reason institutions, with a clear & well defined mandate, can't invest in BTC is because it's too volatile & still vaporware atm, no one can guarantee what it's price will be tomorrow & whether your BTC will even be in the wallet. Public or even private institutions cannot invest in such instruments where there's no redressal mechanism of any sort, *who governs anything BTC when there's fraud involved*, especially if this thing's as uber global as it gets?



There's a lot of fearmongering here.

Who governs whether the BTC will be in your wallet?  You.  If you do proper security (and it really isn't that hard) you will have the same amount yesterday as the next day.  I know because I've never lost a coin due to anything but me sending it or my own stupidity, and I've had a balance since practically 2012.

I also think you need to research what "vaporware" is.



> no one can guarantee what it's price will be tomorrow



This is applicable to all nearly all tradable commodities.


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## R0H1T (Oct 25, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> There's a lot of fearmongering here.
> 
> *Who governs whether the BTC will be in your wallet*?  You.  If you do proper security (and it really isn't that hard) you will have the same amount yesterday as the next day.  I know because I've never lost a coin due to anything but me sending it or my own stupidity, and I've had a balance since practically 2012.
> 
> ...


*MtGox *~ does the name ring any bells, granted it isn't exactly what you're saying but something along the line.

So long as BTC isn't printed on a paper, legal tender, or backed by real assets it can be termed as vaporware. Also as long as it isn't brought under the jurisdiction of central banks, to be precise national jurisprudence, it ought be seen as vaporware.

Who or what's backing *BTC*, at least with stocks we have tangible assets, even employees, that are worth something?


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## R-T-B (Oct 25, 2017)

R0H1T said:


> Who or what's backing *BTC*, at least with stocks we have tangible assets, even employees, that are worth something?



Other currencies largely.



> So long as BTC isn't printed on a paper, legal tender, or backed by real assets it can be termed as vaporware.



So seeing as you can print it on paper, and it is legal tender in some jurisdictions, and it is backed by assets, it's not?

MtGox was an exchange, and not a proper wallet.  Anyone storing large wealth in a place called *M*agic *T*he *G*athering *O*nline E*x*change is a fool.

The only proper place to store a large amount of BTC is in the real btc wallet app, or better yet, a paper wallet.


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## Vya Domus (Oct 25, 2017)

jboydgolfer said:


> imo, The moment big$ puts a "green lght" on b¢,  is when it drops like a stone & reaches a much lower ppb¢



No ! Let them dream !


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## StrayKAT (Oct 25, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> This is actually showing the majority of belief in btc is coming from individuals.
> 
> If anything, that adds to it's legitimacy.



Legitimacy would just be seeing it used more. For all the money involved, it doesn't circulate much.

On a sidenote, it's funny to see it's rise when nationalism is also rising around the world.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 25, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> https://www.goldbroker.com/charts/gold-price/btc
> 
> You can exchange btc for gold as easily as currency.  I am unsure what gold has to do with legitimacy at all though.  Again, the gold standard died in the 60s over most of the world.
> 
> I can probably trade coconuts for gold too, if I had enough.


Very clearly tied to USD...


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 25, 2017)

So what backs bit/etherum/crypto currency?


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 25, 2017)

Everyone that buys into it.  Cryptocurrency's like an unregulated stock market.


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## micropage7 (Oct 25, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> too lightly regulated, too volatile and too illiquid to risk investing other people’s money in.


i agree on this one, although the value is pretty high, its kinda too volatile in long term, bubble could pop anytime. maybe its the safe way than risking many $$ too much


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## Fourstaff (Oct 25, 2017)

Bitcoins feel like the .com bubble: everyone is buying into it because everyone else is buying into it. Not sure what the endgame is with all these various different coin currencies.


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## toilet pepper (Oct 25, 2017)

Ebo said:


> If its cant be messured in gold like normal currency which is accepted arround the world, it has absolutely NO value at all.
> If you allow compagnies to envent another crypto"f*ckup", for people to mine its all artificial and has NO base in reality, its just greed thats fuels the fire for its downfall.


Gold standard died ages ago. Old money would say that it has an equivalence to gold. New money would say it is tender only when legal. Peoplecould straight up and refuse to accept new currency/money anytime.


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## trog100 (Oct 25, 2017)

toilet pepper said:


> Gold standard died ages ago. Old money would say that it has an equivalence to gold. New money would say it is tender only when legal. Peoplecould straight up and refuse to accept new currency/money anytime.



the gold standard died (or was put to death) because it was too restrictive.. governments could not spend what they did not have.. now of course they can and they are all doing so.. at a great rate of knots..

and why are people buying into the stock markets.. because they can.. no other reason.. all this magic money has to go somewhere.. the stock markets are at record highs.. all done with magic money.. governments use the ever inflating stock market as a sign that all things are hunky dory..

some are calling it an "everything bubble".. he he

trog


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## hat (Oct 25, 2017)

All the crypto naysayers... I've gotten probably around $400 back from my investment thus far... Real enough to me. BTC has bailed me out many times already.


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## the54thvoid (Oct 25, 2017)

hat said:


> All the crypto naysayers... I've gotten probably around $400 back from my investment thus far... Real enough to me. BTC has bailed me out many times already.



On what timescale?  $400 in a year, a month? 

It's not so much naysayers as people commenting that it is an incredibly volatile 'thing'.  Its main problem is that if i accept bitcoin for a product, bitcoin can drop very fast, thus, I lose on that trade, plus i'm more likely to sell fast if it drops.  It has no link to a product in itself and due to lack of regulation, it can freefall.  The ONLY reason it is climbing is due to very rich short term investors.  If you mined BC at the beginning - you are a very lucky individual.

All that being said - I would like to buy Metronome.


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## phanbuey (Oct 25, 2017)

I think BTC is the canary in the coal mine.... once that tanks stocks (esp tech stocks) won't be far behind.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 25, 2017)

I doubt it.  Hardware vendors like AMD and NVIDIA might see a dip but you really think corporate giants like Wells Fargo, Caterpillar, and GM care about BTC?  Nope, not at all.  The stock markets are huge--valued in the trillions of dollars.  BTC, even at it's hugely inflated price, is still smaller than a single corporate giant like Apple ($807.38B for Oct. 25, 2017).


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## trog100 (Oct 25, 2017)

bitcoin is seen as the new digital gold.. you cant buy much with gold ether.. its for when fiat goes down or the stock markets collapses.. it wont go down with them it will go up..

i am mining some and just sitting on it.. it aint gonna go away..  i use paypal to buy stuff.. he he

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 25, 2017)

I'm not convinced BTC will surge against gold when fiat/gold/silver drops.  BTC is not a convertible currency at all.  It has to transfer through a medium like USD.  It doesn't happen very often but there's not many stores that won't accept a gold/silver trade.  If you drop two pounds of gold on a car dealer's desk, right now, they'll let you leave with a $40k car off the lot after signing some papers.  If you try to do the same with BTC, they'll look at you like "WTF are you smoking?"

Even if they do take it, they have to convert it to cash immediately because the value of BTC could plummet to less than the value of the product in minutes.


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## phanbuey (Oct 25, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I doubt it.  Hardware vendors like AMD and NVIDIA might see a dip but you really think corporate giants like Wells Fargo, Caterpillar, and GM care about BTC?  Nope, not at all.  The stock markets are huge--valued in the trillions of dollars.  BTC, even at it's hugely inflated price, is still smaller than a single corporate giant like Apple ($807.38B for Oct. 25, 2017).



No i just mean that everyone is expecting a pullback, and due to the volatility Bitcoin is a great candidate to go first.

Just a wild guess by the way - based on an assumption that Bitcoin surging is a sign of a consistently Bullish market, and not due to any value Bitcoin actually brings to the table.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 25, 2017)

But even if the floor falls out from under it, I don't think larger, global markets will follow.  Like I said, Apple's one stock is worth more than all the cryptocurrencies combined.  Their ability to impact the greater market is virtually none.  Bonds -> Stocks -> Cryptocurrency.  The people investing in Cryptocurrency are looking to make a quick buck that they can afford to lose.


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## R-T-B (Oct 25, 2017)

the54thvoid said:


> Its main problem is that if i accept bitcoin for a product, bitcoin can drop very fast, thus, I lose on that trade, plus i'm more likely to sell fast if it drops.



With the various instant exchanges that will do your billing for you straight to a USD or euro value, this problem is non existent really.

People have also bought expensive cars with things far more obscure than bitcoin (I think a Tesla was bought with Dogecoin a year or so ago), so I am unsure if Ford's point applies.


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## cdawall (Oct 26, 2017)

hat said:


> All the crypto naysayers... I've gotten probably around $400 back from my investment thus far... Real enough to me. BTC has bailed me out many times already.



That doesn't even make a dent into what I have made with my stuff scaled up. It can and will make money


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## hat (Oct 26, 2017)

Well I currently make about 3 bucks a day with two 1070s... That's all I can manage right now.


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## StrayKAT (Oct 26, 2017)

Making money is not the problem. At least for individuals. Making an "economy" is an altogether different thing.

And as simplistic as it sounds, one of the biggest "big money" guys, Jamie Dimon, summed it up right. It's usefulness still revolves around seedy shit. And like he's saying, "billions" is nothing. It's chump change, relatively speaking.


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## vUvu (Oct 26, 2017)

it looks like to me the doubters are getting their info from newpaper headlines or tabloids or something as they haven't really said anything convincing as they are the very same arguments made since even at the very start of bitcoin.  Yet bitcoin survives, is thriving, and trending upwards....  No doubt there will be a crash, but it will rebound as it always does.
I think instead of looking at this facetiously, i'll just ask a few important questions. Why is bitcoin itself is highly valued? What makes it valuble? Why is Ethereum the next big thing? Easy stuff to find out for sure... but i suggest a little bit of knowledge will go a long way here. 
At the very least if you still doubt crypto currencies, you can make more educated arguments why.

crypto bubble article 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/investor/2017/08/08/cryptocurrency-is-a-bubble-revisited/#356a5f903f0a


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

Dimon is absolutely right.  The market is only kept alive by the users in it.  They have no intrinsic value.  They are not legal tender.  There is little in the way of regulation and that is changing.  No bank would give a cryptocurrency a loan.  It has no assets.  Fiat does.

Blockchain is not a very good technology when it comes down to it either.  It's painfully slow and very expensive computationally.


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## R-T-B (Oct 26, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The market is only kept alive by the users in it.



That's how every market works, dude.  If money doesn't change hands the market is as good as dead.

As for it only being useful for "seedy shit," the Silk Road was a long time ago and that day of it's usefulness has largely passed.  Look into "coin validation" and the like.  Seriously.  It's a very small percentage being used that way today.  People are wary of using it that way because contrary to popular belief, it's not untracable, only anonymous...  and only then if you mask the IP you send it from or use a lite client or take other proactive measures which honestly are better served by another currency entirely.



> No bank would give a cryptocurrency a loan.



They probably would if there were someone to accept it.  There isn't.  They have however, funded numerous bitcoin related startups.  Look into coinbases funding structure.



> It has no assets. Fiat does.



It's assets ARE fiat.



FordGT90Concept said:


> They are not legal tender.



The truth is a lot more convoluted than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory

Search for "Legal Tender" in that document.  Recognize some names?



> Blockchain is not a very good technology when it comes down to it either. It's painfully slow and very expensive computationally.



Strongest point yet, but mainly down to the technique (Proof of work) being employed more than the tech, frankly.  A refinement is needed to be sure though.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> That's how every market works, dude.  If money doesn't change hands the market is as good as dead.


Except that trading dirt has more intrinsic value than bitcoins do.  It's nothing, from nothing, representing nothing.  It mimics a Ponzi scheme.  You have all your hardware at the bottom doing all the work that is accumulating at the top for the people who turn and burn.  Get a lot of Ponzi operators together in an isolated market that's shielded from regulation, I think what we see is exactly what we expect to get.



R-T-B said:


> They probably would if there were someone to accept it.  There isn't.  They have however, funded numerous bitcoin related startups.  Look into coinbases funding structure.


Loans are given to _people and businesses_, not cryptocurrencies.  Those people taking out the loans have to have assets/liabilities/line of credit which can be seized should payments not be made.  A bank putting money directly into an ICO, taking a share of it?  The feds would flip their shit.  The SEC is flailing it's hammer about a lot in this direction.



R-T-B said:


> It's assets ARE fiat.


Governments have land, buildings, vehicles, programs, etc.  Ask yourself how much NASA is worth, for example.  Fiat currencies with none of these things are worthless.  On top of that, governments have the authority to seize private assets so long as the owner is duly compensated (often by fiat currency).



R-T-B said:


> The truth is a lot more convoluted than that.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory
> 
> Search for "Legal Tender" in that document.  Recognize some names?


1) EU: court said that Bitcoin is exempt from VAT because it is a "virtual currency" and not a "comodity."  It is not "legal tender" because only EU parliament has the power to do that.
2) Jordan: blatantly not "legal tender."
3) Malyasia: blatantly not "legal tender."
4) Poland: blatantly not "legal tender."
5) Slovakia: not only says it's not "legal tender" (because lacks physical form) but also to deal in at your own risk.
6) Lithuania: blatantly not "legal tender."


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## StrayKAT (Oct 26, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> That's how every market works, dude.  If money doesn't change hands the market is as good as dead.
> 
> As for it only being useful for "seedy shit," the Silk Road was a long time ago and that day of it's usefulness has largely passed.  Look into "coin validation" and the like.  Seriously.  It's a very small percentage being used that way today.  People are wary of using it that way because contrary to popular belief, it's not untracable, only anonymous...  and only then if you mask the IP you send it from or use a lite client or take other proactive measures which honestly are better served by another currency entirely.



I don't even think he mentioned Silk Road above. Just a vague reference to criminals. Which is true. However, he started first with mentioning Venezuela and North Korea. Not mere criminals, but nations with little alternative.


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## R-T-B (Oct 26, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Except that trading dirt has more intrinsic value than bitcoins do.



Not with big money backing it, it doesn't.  You can use your own logic against yourself here, because bitcoin is backed by money which is backed by nations.



StrayKAT said:


> I don't even think he mentioned Silk Road above. Just a vague reference to criminals. Which is true. However, he started first with mentioning Venezuela and North Korea. Not mere criminals, but nations with little alternative.



The Silk Road was just the era in which Bitcoin was largely considered unregulated and the myth of being untracable was born.  That narritive has been largely shattered with the recent seizures and threats by the FBI to come after users of subsequent markets.




> Loans are given to _people and businesses_, not cryptocurrencies.



Which is precisely why your comparison is preposterous.  No one loans the dollar money either, they loan the united states money.  If you want to loan bitcoins "government" money, you loan the foundations that support it.  Simple.



> 1) EU: court said that Bitcoin is exempt from VAT because it is a "virtual currency" and not a "comodity."  It is not "legal tender" because only EU parliament has the power to do that.
> 2) Jordan: blatantly not "legal tender."
> 3) Malyasia: blatantly not "legal tender."
> 4) Poland: blatantly not "legal tender."
> ...




Got me there.  Apparently some reading is required.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Not with big money backing it, it doesn't.  You can use your own logic against yourself here, because bitcoin is backed by money which is backed by nations.


Have you seen China build islands in the middle of the South China Sea?  How about Dubai? When lots of dirt gets moved, it creates prime real estate.  Hell, even most large road projects result in artificial lakes being created which also significantly increase their property value.  And in the middle of a desert, fertile soil is worth a fortune.  Hell, even where fertile soil is all around, people still by dirt by the bag for their gardens.

I decided to search that topic for the hell of it and here's a 2008 hit: Dirt as a Growth Industry  Mining, agriculture, landscaping, property, and waste management are all dirt industries.  We're talking trillions upon trillions of dollars globally.


Bitcoin is like coupons that state their real value is something like $0.00000001.  If governments make it illegal to deal in cryptocurrencies, then you basically end up with the same thing: lots of coins with no buyers.  You can't even give them away for fear of drawing the ire of investigators.  It may never happen, but it could, and that fact is likely to never change.



R-T-B said:


> Which is precisely why your comparison is preposterous.  No one loans the dollar money either, they loan the united states money.  If you want to loan bitcoins "government" money, you loan the foundations that support it.  Simple.


You should research what fiat money means.  It's intrinsically linked to governance.  When a government produces legal tender or otherwise increases supply, it's creating a debt that exists until that supply is destroyed.  Legal tender (the cloth variety) is literally promissory notes.  The Federal Reserve sets the interest rates on accessing that supply--it's effectively a loan.


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## R-T-B (Oct 26, 2017)

I know what fiat money is ford, please.

Bitcoin therefore represents the wealth of the merchants willing to accept it.

As for your coupon comparison:  Any commodity can be made illegal.  Why is bitcoin different and "coupon like?"  What makes it intrinsically less valuable than say gold due to this fact?  Odds of illegalization?  They are decreasing daily and value is rising with each barrier removed.

Look, I know you have a beef with crypto, but I have no desire to continue this debate with you at the moment.  Don't mistake it for lack of an argument, but I just don't have the time.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Why is bitcoin different and "coupon like?"


No intrinsic value, no backing assets, no regulation, no keeping price sane by increasing supply on demand.



R-T-B said:


> What makes it intrinsically less valuable than say gold due to this fact?


Imagine a world with no government, no internet, no computers.  Gold is still highly valued because it's pretty, easily malleable, and extremely well conducting.

Did you mean fiat currencies?  Assets.  People trust the USD because it's relatively stable and there's billions of billions of dollars in assets behind it.



R-T-B said:


> Odds of illegalization?  They are decreasing daily and value is rising with each barrier removed.


Listen to Dimon: no one in position of power actually cares about Bitcoin.  Even at $200 billion market cap, that's 1/4 the value of Apple by itself.  It's a minnow in an ocean.  The fact governments haven't moved to tax it yet is strongly indicative of this.  The bigger it gets, the more it will get regulated and taxed which makes it much, much less attractive (could theoretically eat all of the profits from mining in the first place).  Cryptocurrency is like an offshore tax haven right now.


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## R-T-B (Oct 26, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The fact governments haven't moved to tax it yet is strongly indicative of this.



Bitcoin earnings are taxable, at least in the USA.



> no keeping price sane by increasing supply on demand.



What gave you that idea?  Supply is regulated and actually release rate is down to 12.5 from 50 at it's inception.  Where is this "on demand" supply?


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Bitcoin earnings are taxable, at least in the USA.


Only capital gains tax.



R-T-B said:


> What gave you that idea?  Supply is regulated and actually release rate is down to 12.5 from 50 at it's inception.  Where is this "on demand" supply?


I was talking about fiat.  BTC has fixed supply which means it has to go deep into the decimals for typical transactions.  Fiat currencies adjust supply relative to demand.  Over the course of a year, the USD, EU, AUD, etc. have about the same purchasing power.  Sure, inflation changes that more drastically over 5+ years but the point is that it is somewhat regular.  Even with stocks, some companies issue dividends to stop the individual stock price from rising too high.  Why did BTC hit $6000?  Because fixed supply.


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## R-T-B (Oct 26, 2017)

I'd argue inflation is just as bad if not worse.

Fixed supply is not btcs issue.  It's that it literally came from nowhere, and people are still determining it's value relative to it's usefulness.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

Fiat currencies want inflation to be close to growth which keeps the unit value stable.  You know, because legal tender.  No one wants a pocket full of pennies or thousands of bills in their pocket to buy a loaf of bread.


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## R-T-B (Oct 26, 2017)

And humans have never managed that in the past?

I'd trust a machine over human calculations anyday.  But as I said, this debate is tiresome.  I am out.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 26, 2017)

Except if the decimal gets too far deep, then you run into floating-point rounding errors.


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## yotano211 (Oct 26, 2017)

I love mining and building mining machines for miners. It just bought me a used 2011 Prius to give to my mom.


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## trog100 (Oct 26, 2017)

crypto is very polarized.. it has lovers and haters.. cherry pick your arguments from ether side and you still end up getting nowhere.. 

trog


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## trog100 (Nov 2, 2017)

bitcoin is now over $7000 dollars and looking to go higher.. big money might well have changed its mind.. he he

trog


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 2, 2017)

Nope, they didn't.  We're seeing more of that volatility big money hates.  Just in the last day, it swung $800 or 10.6%.  You buy BTC at the wrong time, you can lose 10+% in seconds.  There's also the assumption that BTC's real value is $0 so it is not a good long term investment like stocks.


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## BiggieShady (Nov 2, 2017)

Isn't cryptocurrency famous for being transparent in terms of transactions and account saldo and yet owners of accounts are not known?
If so, how can anyone know who is not playing the market?
Are they only tracking who is buying cryptocurrency from the outside for fiat money to trade while the bubble grows?


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## trog100 (Nov 2, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Nope, they didn't.  We're seeing more of that volatility big money hates.  Just in the last day, it swung $800 or 10.6%.  You buy BTC at the wrong time, you can lose 10+% in seconds.  There's also the assumption that BTC's real value is $0 so it is not a good long term investment like stocks.



stocks are massively over inflated.. there is no real value to those ether.. its a mistake to think there is.. there is no volatility because there isnt allowed to be any.. its all cheap money company buybacks and buy the f-cking dips.. 

nothing is real any more..  he he.. 

trog


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## Vayra86 (Nov 2, 2017)

Guys, you really need to get the memo by now. BTC is NOT interesting as a currency at all.

Cryptocurrency as a *concept*, that is interesting. But the way it is accumulated right now, for example, completely ignores any sane economic principle and is the main contributor to its volatility.

But the real news with BTC is not the coin or the currency.

It's blockchain technology. Look at the investments of big money on that, and you see a different picture. This whole fuss about mining will be forgotten within our lifetimes.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...make-list-of-most-active-blockchain-investors



trog100 said:


> stocks are massively over inflated.. there is no real value to those ether.. its a mistake to think there is.. there is no volatility because there isnt allowed to be any.. its all cheap money company buybacks and buy the f-cking dips..
> 
> nothing is real any more..  he he..
> 
> trog



You should get out more  Really. If you see where the real movement and growth and intelligence is, if you look at how financial markets are constantly refined and regulated and how much weight is attributed to them, you would not say this.


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 2, 2017)

trog100 said:


> stocks are massively over inflated.. there is no real value to those ether.. its a mistake to think there is.. there is no volatility because there isnt allowed to be any.. its all cheap money company buybacks and buy the f-cking dips..


Stocks are a stake in a corporation.  Even if the corporation folds, shareholders will get some of their money back when assets are sold.

Volatility is caped by exchanges.  If a metric falls too low in a day, the exchange shuts down to give investors a chance to collect their thoughts and come back into it with less strong emotions.
​


Vayra86 said:


> Guys, you really need to get the memo by now. BTC is NOT interesting as a currency at all.
> 
> Cryptocurrency as a *concept*, that is interesting. But the way it is accumulated right now, for example, completely ignores any sane economic principle and is the main contributor to its volatility.
> 
> ...


$267 million is pocket change for these companies.  They want to know if there's any where else they can reasonably deploy blockchain tech but, from what I've heard, the answer has been a resounding "no" (too slow and too expensive).  They're likely holding onto those companies to profit off the bull market.  Once BTC collapses again, I suspect they'll shutter those companies and absorb the IP.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 2, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> $267 million is pocket change for these companies.  They want to know if there's any where else they can reasonably deploy blockchain tech but, from what I've heard, the answer has been a resounding "no" (too slow and too expensive).  They're likely holding onto those companies to profit off the bull market.  Once BTC collapses again, I suspect they'll shutter those companies and absorb the IP.



I work at a leading IT consultancy firm and I can tell you, that right now, the implementation of blockchain and having solid blockchain IP is seen as one of the most rewarding technologies in the marketplace. This is like electric cars - its going to exist at large at some point, but in the early stages, pumping huge sums of money into it or its R&D is highly unlikely to pay off, and blockchain also only is effective when it is adopted 'at large' for example within an entire sector. Another thing with blockchain is that it doesn't require a massive investment at all to be effective because it is distributed tech, like the internet, and as such the cost of running it is also distributed in a sense.

In essence blockchain is about one fundamental pillar underneath our entire society: trust. In IT, this is data quality and reliability, and that is literally everything. The problem is, for most businesses its not something they can make money from, but it will be something they need to keep making money in the future, and it is already without question something banks will adopt.


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 2, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> Another thing with blockchain is that it doesn't require a massive investment at all to be effective because it is distributed tech, like the internet, and as such the cost of running it is also distributed in a sense.


Therein lies the problem: internet.  What happens when there is no internet service?  Businesses that have moved to an entirely internet-based infrastructure...outages cost them million a minute.  If you don't have systems that can operate solo for extended periods of time, any theoretical gain from changing to blockchain can be wiped out in a day. Cloud compute > blockchain.  Compute nodes can function isolated from the cloud then update the cloud when it reconnects.



Vayra86 said:


> The problem is, for most businesses its not something they can make money from, but it will be something they need to keep making money in the future, and it is already without question something banks will adopt.


Not really.  AFAIK, Goldman Sachs is the last big bank even considering it.  The rest have dropped out.  Blockchain is only suitable for small projects (e.g. could work well for source control--everyone in the project is also a backup of the project).  The bigger it gets, the more inefficient and burdensome blockchain becomes.


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## trog100 (Nov 4, 2017)

the advanced world is or has now become totally dependent on the internet.. fiat money is now  "digital" so "if the internet went down" type comments dont mean that much any more.. 

i dont carry cash and the banks dont carry much of it ether.. he he

i would also bet that decry it or not jamie dimond has a secret stash of bitcoin.. 

but in truth nobody can foresee the future.. apart from saying it dosnt look very promising thats as far as i will go.. vayra is probably right.. i need to get out more.. he he

trog


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## trog100 (Nov 4, 2017)

big money and bitcoin.. only oppinion but theoretically expert oppinion.. 

http://www.altcointoday.com/coinbase-gains-100000-new-users-within-24-hours/

trog


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 4, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Therein lies the problem: internet.  What happens when there is no internet service?  Businesses that have moved to an entirely internet-based infrastructure...outages cost them million a minute.  If you don't have systems that can operate solo for extended periods of time, any theoretical gain from changing to blockchain can be wiped out in a day. Cloud compute > blockchain.  Compute nodes can function isolated from the cloud then update the cloud when it reconnects.
> 
> 
> Not really.  AFAIK, Goldman Sachs is the last big bank even considering it.  The rest have dropped out.  Blockchain is only suitable for small projects (e.g. could work well for source control--everyone in the project is also a backup of the project).  The bigger it gets, the more inefficient and burdensome blockchain becomes.


I would still argue that PayPal google and apple pay are significantly more disastrous for banks then any blockchain and in reality what will push banks to adopt blockchain tech and develop better financial systems but i personally think high Street banks are in danger already.
To argue that blockchains use of the net is a weakness is moot in my opinion since both systems would survive anything but a global power outage or net outage and regional outages effect both the same in that only hard cash is usesble but without the net it's just as hard to get(paypoints etc).


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## Jetster (Nov 4, 2017)

Big money will always go for the sure thing. They look for a history of returns and low risk. They stay away from single stocks and risky investments. Of course there will always be exceptions.


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 4, 2017)

trog100 said:


> the advanced world is or has now become totally dependent on the internet.. fiat money is now  "digital" so "if the internet went down" type comments dont mean that much any more..


Legal tender is not digital at all.  Even in completely digital transactions, it is processed like there is an exchange of cash occurring.  Transactions can still occur over phone, through mail, etc.  Things slow down but they don't stop.  In my previous example about cloud computing, banks and credit unions are the nodes.  They're all fully capable of going back to paper ledges if the need arises (and occasionally does).


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## neatfeatguy (Nov 7, 2017)

I don't tend to really follow this stuff much because I think it's all a bunch of hooey. It's suggested that some Wall Street players are paying more attention to the crypto currencies and may have plans of their own. Just thought I'd share:

Here is the link - (below is the article if you don't wish to read it from the link)

The cryptocurrency wave that appears to be sweeping Wall Street is not just benefiting bitcoin.

The digital currency, which has seen its price spike 600% this year, is getting a bit more respect and attention from traditional Wall Street players. Exchange groups CME and Cboe, for instance, are planning to roll out their own bitcoin futures products and Goldman Sachs is considering a bitcoin trading operation. Over 70 cryptocurrency hedge funds have sprouted up to take advantage of investment opportunities in the booming crypto space, according to analytics provider Autonomous NEXT.

And at least two bitcoin-related companies appear to be riding the wave as well.

The stock of Bitcoin Group, a bitcoin mining company, and Hive Blockchain Technologies, another crypto mining company, have both seen their share price appreciate by more than 1,000%.

On Monday the price of Bitcoin Group, a Australia-based company, traded near $80 per share, up 1,006% since the beginning of the year. The company operates bitcoin mining facilities in Australia, Iceland, and China.

Bitcoin mining is the process by which new bitcoins are unleashed and bitcoin transactions are processed on the underpinning blockchain network.







MI

Hive Blockchain Technologies, a Canadian firm, is up 3,690% year-to-date at $4 per share. The company began trading under the ticker "HIVE" in September after it "took over the listing of Leeta Gold Corp," according to Bloomberg.






MI

The market for cryptocurrencies, which now includes over 1,000 different coins and tokens, recently surpassed $200 billion, according to Coinmarketcap.com.


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