# XFX Radeon R9 280X Double Dissipation Pictured



## btarunr (Sep 27, 2013)

Although Radeon R9 280X has a lot in common with Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition, AMD's AIB partners are expected to come up with entirely new board designs. A case in point is the XFX Double Dissipation card, pictured below. While we don't know if XFX is recycling PCB designs over from the HD 7970 GHz Edition, the cooler certainly looks new, with its tall and chunky aluminium fin heatsink that's fed by copper heat-pipes, and a pair of 100 mm fans. Its box speaks of an "unlocked voltage" feature.

Based on the 28 nm "Tahiti XTL" silicon, Radeon R9 280X features 2,048 GCN stream processors, 128 TMUs, 32 ROPs, and a 384-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface, holding 3 GB of memory. The GPU is expected to be clocked a notch above 1.00 GHz on XFX' card, and the memory around 6.40 GHz. Slated for October 3rd, the card is expected to be priced anywhere between $299 and $329.



 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## buildzoid (Sep 27, 2013)

I hope that the cooler isn't as crap as the coolers on the HD 79** because it looks absolutely stunning


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## RCoon (Sep 27, 2013)

buildzoid said:


> I hope that the cooler isn't as crap as the coolers on the HD 79** because it looks absolutely stunning



Seconded, never buying XFX again until I see a review of that fabled cooler that actually cools VRM's.


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## Mombasa69 (Sep 27, 2013)

*Looks like a fine GPU*

I may go for 2 of these cards, they do look and sound impressive.


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## Sempron Guy (Sep 27, 2013)

Nice try XFX, I know what's behind those sexy curves


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## Mombasa69 (Sep 27, 2013)

Sempron Guy said:


> Nice try XFX, I know what's behind those sexy curves



Something that's only around 20% slower than a Titan (is unlocked and can be clocked up far more) for a 3rd of the price of a Titan only a shade slower than a 780 and DX11.2 support, which the Titan and 780 doesn't have...


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## Sempron Guy (Sep 27, 2013)

Mombasa69 said:


> Something that's only around 20% slower than a Titan (is unlocked and can be clocked up far more) for a 3rd of the price of a Titan only a shade slower than a 780 and DX11.2 support, which the Titan and 780 doesn't have...



The Double Dissipation cooler implemented on the HD7xxx series sux bells that's what I meant  So anything XFX with a nice looking "double dissipation design" cooler, I'd think thrice


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## radrok (Sep 27, 2013)

Mombasa69 said:


> is unlocked and can be clocked up far more



My Titans currently run at 1400 MHz, how much more unlocked do you want? 

For the price, well I do agree, let's bring GPU prices to earth please.


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## Mombasa69 (Sep 27, 2013)

Sempron Guy said:


> The Double Dissipation cooler implemented on the HD7xxx series sux bells that's what I meant  So anything XFX with a nice looking "double dissipation design" cooler, I'd think thrice



GCN RADEON Architecture that ALL new consoles use, oh I wonder what type of hardware game developers are programming for that will be ported over to PC's, oh Nvidia, I think not...


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## RCoon (Sep 27, 2013)

Mombasa69 said:


> GCN RADEON Architecture that ALL new consoles use, oh I wonder what type of hardware game developers are programming for that will be ported over to PC's, oh Nvidia, I think not...



We're knocking the cooler, not the actual amd chip underneath said cooler.
Read carefully before you post abbrasive replies.


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## Mombasa69 (Sep 27, 2013)

RCoon said:


> We're knocking the cooler, not the actual amd chip underneath said cooler.
> Read carefully before you post abbrasive replies.



Fair enough, but I quite like the cooler myself, very similar to the cooler styles on various Nvidia cards I've owned, always been with Nvidia, but I'll be replacing my 3 570's with 2 of these, sorry Nvidia it's been good, but it's time to move on to a GPU that has the same architecture as the new consoles.


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## EarthDog (Sep 27, 2013)

Its the performance of the cooler, not the look of it... are we speaking English? LOL!

I wouldn't be so hyped up on console ports to the PC personally. We will see what this generation brings, but most people just straight dislike port's as they tend to not look as good as something 'made' for the PC.


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## The Von Matrices (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm not going to buy an XFX card until the company stops voiding the warranty just for removing the heatsink (to clean it or to replace it with another heatsink or a water block).


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## NeoXF (Sep 27, 2013)

...anyway.

That's gotta be the most awesome looking video card I've ever seen... Too bad XFX is one of the brands that are very hard to get a hold of in my country... and that it's XFX...

Either way, reviews and customer feedback will be the dealmaker...


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## The Terrible Puddle (Sep 27, 2013)

I would buy this card just for looks.


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 27, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Seconded, never buying XFX again until I see a review of that fabled cooler that actually cools VRM's.



Im never buying XFX again because you need to RMA the card if you wish to take the cooler off to clean it better and removing the cooler voids warranty.

Why would i need to RMA a perfectly good card Just for the sake of being able to dust it off a little better?

Waste of time and money to ship it there and back


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## AsRock (Sep 27, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Im never buying XFX again because you need to RMA the card if you wish to take the cooler off to clean it better and removing the cooler voids warranty.
> 
> Why would i need to RMA a perfectly good card Just for the sake of being able to dust it off a little better?
> 
> Waste of time and money to ship it there and back



It's a shame they do that when you don't live in the US.




Sempron Guy said:


> Nice try XFX, I know what's behind those sexy curves



me to, probably a double lifetime warranty unlike anyone else.

It does sound like they learned from the 7k range issue lets hope so as they always treated very well.  And for what we can see it does look likee they put much more effert in the cooler well except those fans..  But being in the US it's a none issue just unscrew shroud and fans and put my own on lol.


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 27, 2013)

AsRock said:


> It's a shame they do that when you don't live in the US



There was a time when XFX was fine with you removing the cooler, even for Euro customers. They have decent cards but their euro support is lacking. 

the thermal paste they use on their GPUs isnt very good quality either, I wanted to remove the coolers off one of my 6970s because 80'c+ under load is too hot IMO even though its within the cards safe operating temps. So they asked me to RMA it.... to which of course i said no.


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## Casecutter (Sep 27, 2013)

AsRock said:


> me to, probably a double lifetime warranty unlike anyone else.


Not sure what your statement is indicating... This might be able to get the lifetime but the double lifetime I believe is gone?

"If you register any of the specified products noted above online within 30 days of purchase, your limited warranty will be EXTENDED for the duration of your life.  Registration within 30 days of the date of purchase is a condition precedent to receiving the lifetime warranty." 
http://xfxforce.com/en-us/Help/Support/WarrantyInformation.aspx

You should know that as you wrote a post on this article.
http://www.techpowerup.com/159346/x...-warranty-with-new-radeon-graphics-cards.html

The limited hardware warranty for selected Graphics Cards may only be transferred to one owner after the original owner.  The following Graphics Cards are eligible: ALL XFX Radeon HD 6000, HD 5000, HD 4000 Series Graphics Cards.


Today I'd buy an HIS... over XFX.


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## Phobia9651 (Sep 27, 2013)

Why do AIB partners bother with custom cooling when they know that it is going to be a bad performing cooler?
If I remember w1zz's review of an EVGA card with ACX cooler correctly, he was quite unimpressed by that one as well.
From what I gathered TwinFrozr/Vapor-X/DirectCU still hold the crown.


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 27, 2013)

urza26 said:


> Why do AIB partners bother with custom cooling when they know that it is going to be a bad performing cooler?
> If I remember w1zz's review of an EVGA card with ACX cooler correctly, he was quite unimpressed by that one as well.
> From what I gathered TwinFrozr/Vapor-X/DirectCU still hold the crown.



For the sake of brand marketing and identity. For all other arguments theres always the reference card with a stock reference cooler instead of a fancier one.

I hear you about MSI's TwinFrozr though and I couldnt agree more.


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## Patriot (Sep 27, 2013)

radrok said:


> My Titans currently run at 1400 MHz, how much more unlocked do you want?
> 
> For the price, well I do agree, let's bring GPU prices to earth please.



-.-
1400MHz those are no stock titans... 
They tend to blow VRM gaskets at 1200-1300MHz...

Either you are plain lucky or are running some very trixy stuff. 
That is zombie mod frequency.


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## haswrong (Sep 27, 2013)

yumm, the xfx design is reeeally lovely. too bad its on a very very outdated hardware..


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## The Von Matrices (Sep 27, 2013)

urza26 said:


> Why do AIB partners bother with custom cooling when they know that it is going to be a bad performing cooler



There are two reasons for this:


Product Differentiation
Cost Savings
XFX apparently prioritizes the latter, and it must be because of that that they generally have among the least expensive cards in the U.S. market.  If you want to run the card at stock speeds, I see nothing wrong with XFX's reduced price coolers.


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## Slomo4shO (Sep 28, 2013)

The Von Matrices said:


> XFX apparently prioritizes the latter, and it must be because of that that they generally have among the least expensive cards in the U.S. market.  If you want to run the card at stock speeds, I see nothing wrong with XFX's reduced price coolers.



XFX used to have quality cards years back but they have continually deteriorated the quality of their product lineup. After buying over a half dozen different XFX cards, I will no longer purchase any GPU from them until I see a real improvement in quality. Their lifetime warranty is meaningless as it becomes a standard warranty after the first RMA  (which is inevitable if you plan on overclocking their cards). To top it off, their coolers are about the worst of the lot and the cards have limited overclock capacity when compared to other manufacturers. At least their Seasonic constructed PSUs are still worthwhile


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## haswrong (Sep 28, 2013)

Casecutter said:


> Today I'd buy an HIS... over XFX.



id prefer HIS too if the new radeon is actually even worth considering. we know big nothing yet. my last HIS is Radeon X1950Pro IceQ3 Turbo 2x Dual Link DVI (HDCP) 512MB GDDR3 (256-bit).


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## AsRock (Sep 28, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> There was a time when XFX was fine with you removing the cooler, even for Euro customers. They have decent cards but their euro support is lacking.
> 
> the thermal paste they use on their GPUs isnt very good quality either, I wanted to remove the coolers off one of my 6970s because 80'c+ under load is too hot IMO even though its within the cards safe operating temps. So they asked me to RMA it.... to which of course i said no.



yeah i know, but as i just been informed maybe you should cheeck if the warranty has changed for you too.

And yes i am not a fan of the paste that was used although i only used thee default cooler for a week lol.



Casecutter said:


> Not sure what your statement is indicating... This might be able to get the lifetime but the double lifetime I believe is gone?
> 
> "If you register any of the specified products noted above online within 30 days of purchase, your limited warranty will be EXTENDED for the duration of your life.  Registration within 30 days of the date of purchase is a condition precedent to receiving the lifetime warranty."
> http://xfxforce.com/en-us/Help/Support/WarrantyInformation.aspx
> ...



Going by that page there is only one warranty page now they used to have one for different countrys...

Not rally surprised it's change and even if it is just lifetime is there any other who would do that never mind lifetime of the person as life time is normally until they stop making the product.  And their warranty still looks better than anyone else.

I will not be getting one for some time so things will look much clearer then.

HIS with their real crappy warranty what they doing these days 2 year at best ?.  Shit screw that.


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## rangerone766 (Sep 28, 2013)

anything I buy is going to be put under water, so cooler is irrelevant to me. heck I wish we could buy then sans cooler at a discount. my trusty gtx 470 @900mhz core has served me quite a while. been wanting to upgrade for a while, just couldn't justify it.

if these clock well over-volted and under water, it may be my next gpu. lets hope.


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## Ralfies (Sep 28, 2013)

I don't know anything about XFX products. But shitty or not, that is one sexy cooler.


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## dj-electric (Sep 29, 2013)

Everyone deserves a second chance IMO, even XFX. Maybe they did some research this time, who knows?


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## Boilerhog (Sep 29, 2013)

XFX warranty still rocks,IMO,i recently  rma'd  a pair of 9800 gtx+ that both had begun artifacting within a month of each other,,got back a pair of 6770's  similar performance today I guess.maybe  a little better,but who cares, evga  no longer sells lifetime warranty products,so  no matter who's reference cards I buy now..warranty is very limited..now if only some of my other lifetime cards would up an die.be right on..


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## Pedro Lisboa (Sep 29, 2013)

*XFX sucks*

Some years ago my XFX 8800 ULTRA died with artefacts and when I sent the card to RMA they not gave me a new one,because it has 25 months and the guarantee only cover 24 months.
This year I sent to EVGA 2 GTX 580 with artefacts with 3 years and they sent me 2 new ones .
XFX sucks and EVGA makes a good work.
All my future cards will be from EVGA .


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## Boilerhog (Sep 29, 2013)

BANG HEAD HERE!.you only got 2 yrs warranty from xfx cause you failed to register on time..  your 580's were the last  lifetime warranty cards that Evga put out, check their policy,,they claim they have lifetime products ,,they are  A1, -A2, -A3, -A4, -AR, -AX, -CR, -CX, -DX, -FR, -FX, -SG, -SX  in model numbers , but they no longer produce those . 6,7,or titan series cards are KR suffix,providing a 3 year warranty standard,,,i have a boatload of evga cards ,all registered,many with lifetime warranty ,from my 7800GS AGP.to my 9800GX2,my 260's and 280 weren't lifetime.,480's were ASUS because of immediate availability,sad that EVGA went   this route as i'm sure they lost sales ..XFX doesn't suck.they protect themselves..and still produce and sell some lifetime products..more than I can say for EVGA..though i'm still a fan..And I just read that XFX is slowly slipping out of lifetime warranty products.trying to minimize   losses i'm sure..i miss "BOOM"  "BFG TECH"  "THE GAMERS CHOICE".. I have a bunch of their cards from back in the day,2 x 512 meg  6800 Ultra AT $1299.00 cad each ,anyone , besides me?  sorry for large post ..its a large topic..

Evga   produced mobo's with lifetime warranty aswell, my 680i's,780i FTW and several 790i ultra  are lifetime .but nomore ,they Fumbled that ball aswell.. time to cookup some hardware and do some RMA's, me thinks,lol.


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## dj-electric (Sep 29, 2013)

Cards die. All cards die, eventually. If yours are XFX's, and from 6 years ago, it doesn't say jacks*it about anything related to the company these days.


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 29, 2013)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> Cards die. All cards die, eventually. If yours are XFX's, and from 6 years ago, it doesn't say jacks*it about anything related to the company these days.



Id say it does - thats a good card if its still running after 6 years. I have cards older then 6 years that arent worth anything these days but they are still running, My X850XTPE AGP is still good.

I have Geforce 2's and Matrox's that are still working fine but i dont use them for nothing other than keep them in a box of scrap/spare parts that i can fix up an older system should i ever pick one up and turn it into a NAS or something.


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Sep 29, 2013)

I think this cooler is going to be alright as it is the heatpipe design and not the Vapor chamber. Also I never had a problem with xfx standing behind a warranty because of taking the hsf off the card. In fact they sent me a replacement Hsf one time for a 5770 I had that the fan went bad on. Instead of sending the just the fan I got the whole HSF under warranty and didn't have to rma the card. Which meant no down time for the cruncher it was in. I would be one to but there products just because of that experience with them. Also my next gpu purchase and probably all from here on out will be XFX cards.


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## Boilerhog (Sep 29, 2013)

Why do all cards die? they don't ,,,I have cards spanning 20 years. I still have an ISA slot, Trident from 1994 that still works..pci 3DFX. agp,MX2, MX 400.fx 5200 ,fx5700 ultra .all still work.;.

Trollithia, where's that?.do a lot of TROLL's live there..we have trolls in Newfoundland, I troll sometimes..DOH! maybe I should get Ban for a while.lol..


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## dj-electric (Sep 29, 2013)

The more complex the design - the bigger those chances are that it's life will end, in any form or way.

You completely disable a whole manufacture based on... statistics you fall into and say that you will use only EVGA. Don't turn yourself into a subject of mockery. Judge a product by it's own individual quality. 

Same goes for people who say they will never use GIGABYTE or ASUS motherboards because once in 2005 a motherboard died on them.


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## The Terrible Puddle (Sep 29, 2013)

The looks of this and the performance of a MSI cooler would make the perfect card.


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 29, 2013)

The Terrible Puddle said:


> The looks of this and the performance of a MSI cooler would make the perfect card.



why not just buy MSI? they make good cards


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## buildzoid (Sep 29, 2013)

That cooler still looks badly designed for cooling because if there are fins everywhere under the shroud there is either 50% more fins than nescessary or 75% less fan than nescessary the first isn't to big a deal but the second option would mean that this cooler is a disaster. And no I didn't pixel measure the photos to get my numbers I'm just estimating by comparing the size of the fans to the size of the shroud. I also hope that the to edge of the card is open so that the hot air has somewhere to go.


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## Boilerhog (Sep 29, 2013)

The Terrible Puddle said:


> he looks of this and the performance of a MSI cooler would make the perfect card.


MSI  ,must have changed their cooler manufacturer,  way back  ,MSI were junk coolers, die cast material with a little shit fan,i've changed cooloers on an fx5200.a 5700LE,, a 6800 gt a couple of 6600 gt ,one just last year. put an nv silencer on a 6600 gt,All MSI. oh a radeon 9600 pro  ,got fitted with an ATI silencer ., one time, that wasn't MSI ,but I can't recall any others..and I have a lot of cards both ATI/AMD and even more NVidia  based.getting a little off topic though .sorry..


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## Boilerhog (Sep 29, 2013)

So back on topic.i need reviews to make a correct opinion,what looks pretty enough,  very nice actually.but from a tradesmans perspective, where does the heat come out?that little xfx cutout at the back?  around the shroud somewhere inside the case ? anyone?as i'm sure it must generate some heat..it will be a first if it doesn't


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 30, 2013)

Boilerhog said:


> So back on topic.i need reviews to make a correct opinion,what looks pretty enough,  very nice actually.but from a tradesmans perspective, where does the heat come out?that little xfx cutout at the back?  around the shroud somewhere inside the case ? anyone?as i'm sure it must generate some heat..it will be a first if it doesn't



bit of a bum question - Same as any other cooler of similar design - a little gets dumped outside the case but most of it is inside so a case with good airflow would be useful. judging buy the fins on the heatsink which are horizontal instead of vertical like some of the coolers used by MSi and Sapphire - air will be dispersed around the edges of the card where the shroud doesnt cover.


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## Boilerhog (Sep 30, 2013)

I looked at the pics and it looks like the shroud closes the card in pretty tight.the side visable anyway. but yeah like my dcii asus 4gig 670's  dump a lot of heat in the case . my corsair flow pro lights on mem .heat sensors turn red when case is closed, and that's an obsidian 800D , big case,well vented..


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 30, 2013)

Boilerhog said:


> I looked at the pics and it looks like the shroud closes the card in pretty tight.the side visable anyway. but yeah like my dcii asus 4gig 670's  dump a lot of heat in the case . my corsair flow pro lights on mem .heat sensors turn red when case is closed, and that's an obsidian 800D , big case,well vented..



you obviously didnt look carefully - Look at the second pic again, some of the heatpipes and fins from the heatsink are exposed and you can see them, My guess is its the same for the otherside too. 

The should doesnt close around the card 'tight' there are still gaps where the hot air escapes around the card. you really need to look more carefully


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## EarthDog (Sep 30, 2013)

Boilerhog said:


> I looked at the pics and it looks like the shroud closes the card in pretty tight.the side visable anyway. but yeah like my dcii asus 4gig 670's  dump a lot of heat in the case . my corsair flow pro lights on mem .heat sensors turn red when case is closed, and that's an obsidian 800D , big case,well vented..


The 800D has terrible airflow. I wouldn't remotely call that thing well vented with technically one intake.


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## The Terrible Puddle (Sep 30, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> why not just buy MSI? they make good cards



Already run two 580 Lightning in my main rig, but doesn't beat this card aesthetically.


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## RCoon (Sep 30, 2013)

The Terrible Puddle said:


> Already run two 580 Lightning in my main rig, but doesn't beat this card aesthetically.



Who cares about aesthetics when the 79xx Double Dissipation cooler is about as efficient as a fart in a sieve?


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## EarthDog (Sep 30, 2013)

mmmmmmm Dutch Oven...


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## AsRock (Sep 30, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Who cares about aesthetics when the 79xx Double Dissipation cooler is about as efficient as a fart in a sieve?



Well this is not a 79xx dissipation cooler is it now, actually looks like they put more effort in it i guess time will tell just remember though there is a lot of people who don't have good cooling in their cases and think they can just put in their system and every thing be ok.

And looks like it might be made some thing like the scythe musashi which was awesome cooler. How ever this one looks like it's split in to so might work even better,

Scythe USA SCVMS-1000 Sleeve VGA Cooler - Newegg.c...


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## Boilerhog (Sep 30, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> you obviously didnt look carefully - Look at the second pic again, some of the heatpipes and fins from the heatsink are exposed and you can see them, My guess is its the same for the otherside too.



Well I looked very carefully at these pics,also my pair of DCUII 670's,and my asus GTX 480's.Both the latter of which have very exposed heatpipes,i can count them on both.(i'm not posting pics ,they are everywhere)I don't consider these pipes exposed .bnut maybe they work,REVIEWS PLEASE ! 
The second pic you made reference too,is the motherboard side of the card at the pci-e slot , not exactly where I would put the heatpipes to allow produced heat to trickle up ward along the board to other components .cpu,memory ,other chips ,etc..neither you nor I ,can see whats exposed on the other side.we can guess for now..




EarthDog said:


> The 800D has terrible airflow. I wouldn't remotely call that thing well vented with technically one intake.



Going by the cases I have (CM 832 stacker,Thermaltake Kandalf,Antec 1200) and have worked with,(too many too list) the obsidian 800D is roomy and vented as well as most ,with the exception of the antec's,the 600 the 900 and the 1200 are the better vented ,closed cases..largely because of the huge fans up top.but are dirty because of the negative case preasure they creat.they suck dust in every where..i try to find a low positive preasure.on all  systems I build so only the fan areas draw air.think of it as a big ol nasty Power House Boiler, lol,that was almost as painful to type as it was to read..


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## FreedomEclipse (Sep 30, 2013)

Boilerhog said:


> Well I looked very carefully at these pics,also my pair of DCUII 670's,and my asus GTX 480's.Both the latter of which have very exposed heatpipes,i can count them on both.(i'm not posting pics ,they are everywhere)I don't consider these pipes exposed .bnut maybe they work,REVIEWS PLEASE !
> The second pic you made reference too,is the motherboard side of the card at the pci-e slot , not exactly where I would put the heatpipes to allow produced heat to trickle up ward along the board to other components .cpu,memory ,other chips ,etc..neither you nor I ,can see whats exposed on the other side.we can guess for now..



If you look carefully at the first pic just along to the right hand side of the XFX logo you can see a little hint of the heatsink.

Due to the direction the fins on the heatsink run, it would be unwise to block off the sides where the heat can disperse and leave the card.  If you compare that to an MSI Twin FrozR though the fins run vertically so air gets channeled out at the front and the back of the card while some may flow out of the sides. They would have to leave the sides of the card exposed otherwise there would be no where for the hot air to go


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## Boilerhog (Oct 1, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> If you look carefully at the first pic just along to the right hand side of the XFX logo you can see a little hint of the heatsink.



yeah like my 9800 GX2's,you  can barely see a heatsink in there ,but you can sure feel the HEAT !




Mombasa69 said:


> DX11.2 support, which the Titan and 780 doesn't have...



Exactly, what program ,game ,os, is using DX11.2, that makes it such a must have..got any screen shots too compare the 11.1  and 11.2..we'll be waiting..


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## Norton (Oct 18, 2013)

AsRock said:


> Well this is not a 79xx dissipation cooler is it now, actually looks like they put more effort in it i guess time will tell just remember though there is a lot of people who don't have good cooling in their cases and think they can just put in their system and every thing be ok.
> 
> *And looks like it might be made some thing like the scythe musashi which was awesome cooler. How ever this one looks like it's split in to so might work even better*,
> 
> Scythe USA SCVMS-1000 Sleeve VGA Cooler - Newegg.c...



Not exactly like the Scythe but similar:






Cooler performance isn't as good as a Vapor X Toxic but certainly expected to be better than the POS XFX used on the 7950/7970.

Review link:
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/xfx-r9-280x-black-oc-edition-review/


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## AsRock (Oct 19, 2013)

With some real fans on it i bet it works even better ,  Get some nice 120mm fans on it.

Nice thin fins too and i see they have joined them all together too so they don't get bent up as easy.


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