# 5950x and PBO overheated something or busted custom loop?



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

So I was tinkering with PBO on my 5950x for the first time tonight, nothing special just tweaking PPT, TDC, and EDC limits, everything else auto.
Wasn't expecting anything special to happen other than a bit higher CPU temps and maybe slightly better clocks and after some time started to notice a strange smell.
I didn't notice the smell right away because my PC is sitting on a rack above my monitors and it was perhaps 15-30 minutes into an all core testing already.
I would say it did NOT smell like typical electronics overheating.

At the time I was monitoring CPU's temps and my UPS wattage.  Nothing seemed particularly abnormal.  CPU was popping up to 89c (which is higher than usual but not unexpected) and I was pulling under 360 watts system total (don't remember the exact number) according to the UPS.  Two temps I didn't manage to get were VRM temps and Water temps before hastily turning everything off in panic mode to check for fire hazards in the house.

CPU:
- Ryzen 9 5950x

Motherboard:
- ASRock X470 Master SLI/AC (revision 1.02, BIOS/UEFI version P4.53)

Cooling:
- EK-FB ASRock X470 Gaming K4 RGB Monoblock, EK-Quantum Reflection PC-O11 D5 PWM, EK-CoolStream PE 360
(monoblock includes VRM cooling)

*What's more likely?*
1) Melting the thermal pads on the VRM's  ( I have read the VRM's on this motherboard are basically trash, didn't know that before I bought it.  I had replaced and used some leftover EK thermal pads from my GPU block in my custom loop maintenance back in June.  They were maybe 2yrs old but were in very good condition )
2) Microleak in Radiator  ( the most concentrated smell seems to be coming from near the ports of the radiator however that is also above to the VRM's under the monoblock, there is no indication of fluid leakage or loss so far )
3) Component burnout somewhere ( the PC didn't crash or exabit any other issues before shutdown so I kind of doubt this )
4) Overheated thermal paste, perhaps some little excess burning off?

It took a good hour to clear the smell out of my house.
So I'm on my backup PC for now while it sits in the garage airing out.
I suspect #2.  EK clear fluid already has a particularly strong smell and I can only imagine what it must smell like when it becomes heated and vaporized.
I'm thinking I'm going to have to do a complete teardown to investigate to be sure.

Anyone want to place their bets.

(edit)

TLDR.  No problem.  Turns out I was wrong.  It was #3.  See the thread for some nice pictures.


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## Toothless (Jul 30, 2022)

Get some thermal pads and light them up, compare smells.

I had a power supply smell like waffles and syrup once.


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## Mussels (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> So I was tinkering with PBO on my 5950x for the first time tonight, nothing special just tweaking PPT, TDC, and EDC limits, everything else auto.
> Wasn't expecting anything special to happen other than a bit higher CPU temps and maybe slightly better clocks and after some time started to notice a strange smell.
> I didn't notice the smell right away because my PC is sitting on a rack above my monitors and it was perhaps 15-30 minutes into an all core testing already.
> I would say it did NOT smell like typical electronics overheating.
> ...


I've had my custom loop go bad maybe 5 times in the last year alone
It happens

CPU hit 90C at stock with PBO off.
 I was grump. Rebuilt loop, reversing in and out on radiator accidentally - crud started accumulating in CPU block. temps went back up.

I ran a primochill cleaner in my loop and within maybe 5 seconds my 'clean' loop with clear distilled water turned into green sludge
These are in order - 'clean' fresh distilled to sludge in seconds, to semi sludge to clean again, as the cleaner did its thing over ~8 hours. Drained the loop and CPU is now at 60C gaming vs the 90C - after the fact it became obvious that the microchannels in my rad were clogged or partially clogged.






I had the thermal pad on my x570 chipset randonly dry out too and in the space of a week went from ~1000RPM 60C to 80C 3000RPM
Less than a year old at the time, so yeah - new thermal pads might be a good idea - remember that monoblocks are EXTREMELY sensitive to the wrong height VRMs

The lesson here: cooling stuff goes bad in weird ways.

AIO's slowly evaporate tiny amounts of coolant through their hoses, custom looops are even more likely - heat can make tiny amounts of things smell bad briefly. thermal pads have oil, thermal paste, coolant, etc.


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## Zach_01 (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> So I was tinkering with PBO on my 5950x for the first time tonight, nothing special just tweaking PPT, TDC, and EDC limits, everything else auto.
> Wasn't expecting anything special to happen other than a bit higher CPU temps and maybe slightly better clocks and after some time started to notice a strange smell.
> I didn't notice the smell right away because my PC is sitting on a rack above my monitors and it was perhaps 15-30 minutes into an all core testing already.
> I would say it did NOT smell like typical electronics overheating.
> ...


What was the CPU EDC/TDC/PPT during that test?
According to this your board needs a serious air flow around VRMs at 150A, and its incapable of 200A






						AM4 Vcore VRM Ratings v1.4 (2019-11-07) - Google Drive
					






					docs.google.com
				




Also 90C is the MAX operating limit and its probably throttling at that point. You shouldn't push it to hard.
Too high EDC + (on) high(est) temp can kill your CPU overtime easily. PPT(w) comes second.

You should've ask for some opinions/directions prior to this, IMHO.


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## ir_cow (Jul 30, 2022)

Only time I had a small that bad was when I forgot to plug in the pump lol.  Besides burning dust, smell isnt normal.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Toothless said:


> Get some thermal pads and light them up, compare smells.
> 
> I had a power supply smell like waffles and syrup once.



I ran a quick test in Ryzen Master, boom got smoke this time, shutoff.

Well I confirmed it.    Melting the thermal pads is likely what happened or maybe component burnout right where the VRM's are on the side of the motherboard.

Guess it's time to do a teardown this weekend and see if there are any signs of visible component damage.
Just before shutoff I saw the VRM spike to 83 but I bet it went higher as the pc froze for a few seconds when Ryzen Master ran it's test.

Womp Womp might be time to order a new motherboard.
5950x and PBO is an obvious fire hazard with my motherboard.


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## Zach_01 (Jul 30, 2022)

Also want to point out that higher EDC does not mean higher performance. Higher temp for sure...

For all core loads:
Only higher effective clocks = higher performance, and this can be achieved at lowest possible temp with a reasonable EDC and most likely lower than the stock 140A(EDC).


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> What was the CPU EDC/TDC/PPT during that test?
> According to this your board needs a serious air flow around VRMs at 150A, and its incapable of 200A





Zach_01 said:


> AM4 Vcore VRM Ratings v1.4 (2019-11-07) - Google Drive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's why I have the monoblock for better VRM heat management.  I forgot that spreadsheet was out there but I thought it only applied to all core overclocks which is not really what I was aiming for.
Interestingly I didn't have this problem with PBO with my 3950x but I admit that was several bios updates and versions of ryzen master long ago.  Ultimately I decided PBO wasn't worth it then.

Here is what I tried.  The defaults are 1000, 420, and 460 but I adjusted these to 250, 180, 220 based on a reddit that recommended forgetting about curve optimizer and simply dialing in EDC to 100% and then adjusting the other values.







Zach_01 said:


> Also 90C is the MAX operating limit and its probably throttling at that point. You shouldn't push it to hard.
> Too high EDC + (on) high(est) temp can kill your CPU overtime easily. PPT(w) comes second.


Isn't the motherboard or CPU supposed to prevent too much power draw?



Zach_01 said:


> You should've ask for some opinions/directions prior to this, IMHO.


I can't argue with that.  I have little doubt I probably smoked my board.  My bad.  Boy do I feel stupid right now and rightfully so.

Note the CPU temp was just fine so I think my CPU is ok but I guess I will have to wait and see.


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## Mussels (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I ran a quick test in Ryzen Master, boom got smoke this time, shutoff.
> 
> Well I confirmed it.    Melting the thermal pads is likely what happened or maybe component burnout right where the VRM's are on the side of the motherboard.
> 
> ...


I mean, start by checking the pads (and the required thickness)
With pads and a block on em, even cheap VRMs should be fine... it's not a 5950x with PBO can blast to 250W



Oof you were not joking, it really does have bad VRMs.
This video does have some really wobbly camera work later on, if you get motion sickness










(The intro has the advertised specs, around 4 minutes he finds out what it really has)

Outright false marketing and claiming different VRM vendors
Claims 'Digi Power 12 phase VRM, 45A choke'
(They now claim intersil 12 phase on the website, but teardowns prove its 4)

Turns out it's a 4 phase from what he describes as a fireworks factory :/


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I mean, start by checking the pads (and the required thickness)
> With pads and a block on em, even cheap VRMs should be fine... it's not a 5950x with PBO can blast to 250W
> 
> 
> ...


I think fireworks factory confirmed.  I may have heard popping.  Oof.


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## Mussels (Jul 30, 2022)

My first MSI B450 was like this, 4 phases without even a heatsink on them
At least it was cheap garbage and advertised itself that way






Yours is like that, only pretending its something literally 5x more capable


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## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

DO NOT USE EDC PAST 145A

Read up the threads here and other forums. If you do so you kill any kind of boost clock with the latest AGESAs.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I mean, start by checking the pads (and the required thickness)
> With pads and a block on em, even cheap VRMs should be fine... it's not a 5950x with PBO can blast to 250W


I did use the recommended thickness per EK but I always had some doubts if I should go a tad thicker.  When I did my first maintenance teardown on my custom loop with my monoblock it did look like there was enough pressure on the pads so when I replaced them I used the same size.  I had bought a few extra pads anticipating the chance I might need to replace them.


Mussels said:


> Oof you were not joking, it really does have bad VRMs.
> This video does have some really wobbly camera work later on, if you get motion sickness


He had another video on this too.


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## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I think fireworks factory confirmed.  I may have heard popping.  Oof.



iirc essentially it's just a 4-phase with doubled lo-side mosfets. Nearly all of the average/mediocre X470/B450 boards had that setup.

Could accommodate a stock 12- or 16-core on that VRM........but only if it had decent choice of mosfets (ie. 4C029) combined with a big heatsink. Unfortunately ASRock is not new MSI and loves bottom of the barrel and the SM4337/SM4336s on your board are about as bad as it gets. I don't think AM4 boards as a whole have seen any other discrete mosfet with a higher RDSon. As it is, a stock or (maybe PBO) 3700X is about the limit.

I had a 4-phase with much more capable older DrMOS parts (50A IR3556), and when pushing a 3700X over 100W the VRM was pushing 80+. I would trust that Gigabyte boards before the K4.

I'm surprised you made it this far, unless you usually only game and don't run any full loads that max out PPT (all-core CPU rendering). But even still, 5900X and 5950X draw like 100W in most games, which is a lot for this board, and why don't usually recommend anything > 3700X on these 4-phase SInopower boards.

Water handles it well but 200-250W is still pretty brutal. Last time I pushed my 5900X to 210-220W the VRM on my Unify-X was getting a bit warm, and that was I think a 14-phase Vcore with 90A ISL99390s.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> DO NOT USE EDC PAST 145A
> 
> Read up the threads here and other forums. If you do so you kill any kind of boost clock with the latest AGESAs.


Based on what you said Ryzen Master defaults totally suck.   The defaults are 1000 ppt, 420 tdc, and 460 edc.


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## Mussels (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Based on what you said Ryzen Master defaults totally suck.   The defaults are 1000 ppt, 420 tdc, and 460 edc.


That's just unlocked totally, the maximum figures - the same as if you ran an all core OC, effectively


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## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

Put some layers


A Computer Guy said:


> Based on what you said Ryzen Master defaults totally suck.   The defaults are 1000 ppt, 420 tdc, and 460 edc.



The Software team with that piece software doesn't communicate with the AGESA god tier coders. It worked on older first 5xxx AGESAs, where you could dump loads of current for basically zero performance gain, they patched it out later on firmware level that nor bios nor ryzen master can trigger those addresses.

I can recommend putting thermal pads or pad a heatsink on the other back side of the motherboard, where VRM are. Reuse the screw holes that holds top heatsinks and add some more on the other side. Some older high end boards did such things in the past. Or layers of pads or one thick one and use the PC case MB plate a heatsink itself.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I've had my custom loop go bad maybe 5 times in the last year alone
> It happens


This had been my first custom loop.  For 2yrs I did pretty well.  Kept up on maintenance, cleaned blocks, radiator. pressure tested.  etc...


Mussels said:


> The lesson here: cooling stuff goes bad in weird ways.


Interestingly as bad as this board was supposed to be it eventually hit just about every checkmark in my exploratory journey coming back to AMD with AM4.
From Zen+, Zen2, Zen3 upgrades and BIOS\UEFI updates were really no problem.  I was able to do some easy RAM overclocks.  ASRock responded to my inquires with BIOS\UEFI fixes several times including with ECC support.  I maxed out CPU, RAM, really had a good experience (despite the AMD growing pains) with this board up until now.



tabascosauz said:


> iirc essentially it's just a 4-phase with doubled lo-side mosfets. Nearly all of the average/mediocre X470/B450 boards had that setup.
> 
> Could accommodate a stock 12- or 16-core on that VRM........but only if it had decent choice of mosfets (ie. 4C029) combined with a big heatsink. Unfortunately ASRock is not new MSI and loves bottom of the barrel and the SM4337/SM4336s on your board are about as bad as it gets. I don't think AM4 boards as a whole have seen any other discrete mosfet with a higher RDSon. As it is, a stock or (maybe PBO) 3700X is about the limit.


Without the monoblock I wouldn't have even considered putting anything higher than 3800x on it.  When I had the 3800x on it without the monoblock it did ok.


tabascosauz said:


> I had a 4-phase with much more capable older DrMOS parts (50A IR3556), and when pushing a 3700X over 100W the VRM was pushing 80+. I would trust that Gigabyte boards before the K4.
> 
> I'm surprised you made it this far, unless you usually only game and don't run any full loads that max out PPT (all-core CPU rendering). But even still, 5900X and 5950X draw like 100W in most games, which is a lot for this board, and why don't usually recommend anything > 3700X on these 4-phase SInopower boards.
> 
> Water handles it well but 200-250W is still pretty brutal. Last time I pushed my 5900X to 210-220W the VRM on my Unify-X was getting a bit warm, and that was I think a 14-phase Vcore with 90A ISL99390s.


Yea I didn't realize how brutal it was going to be.  In my mind, maybe perhaps because of outdated and incorrect information, I thought the CPU was supposed to prevent this situation since I was letting the CPU do it's thing to balance the voltage, power, and heat but just letting the CPU know it can try to do more if it can.


So basically what probably happed here is I blew my VRM because the CPU asked for more power and it destroyed itself trying to do so.  Do I understand that correctly?


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## Mussels (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Yea I didn't realize how brutal it was going to be.  In my mind, maybe perhaps because of outdated and incorrect information, I thought the CPU was supposed to prevent this situation since I was letting the CPU do it's thing to balance the voltage, power, and heat but just letting the CPU know it can try to do more if it can.


PBO changes those settings and the ones you used in RM disabled them entirely

That said, no one would expect the board to die - just thermal throttle, even with stock cooling


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## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

Btw as a fellow EK Monoblock user... what kind of torque you use to tighten everything up? Are you aware of the numbers?

You should do heavy PBO undervolt, limit currents and you should be fine. Do not use any Windows level crap for adjusting mission critical stuff.


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## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Without the monoblock I wouldn't have even considered putting anything higher than 3800x on it.  When I had the 3800x on it without the monoblock it did ok.
> 
> Yea I didn't realize how brutal it was going to be.  In my mind, maybe perhaps because of outdated and incorrect information, I thought the CPU was supposed to prevent this situation since I was letting the CPU do it's thing to balance the voltage, power, and heat but just letting the CPU know it can try to do more if it can.
> 
> So basically what probably happed here is I blew my VRM because the CPU asked for more power and it destroyed itself trying to do so.  Do I understand that correctly?



142W is still in the realm of "doable with more cooling". 200W on hardware like that is just considered playing with fire, lol.

ASRock makes some of the most god awful VRMs, but they are also usually very trigger-happy with over-current protection on the awful boards. Not sure why nothing happened here, but then again the conservative throttling might be more a post-2020 thing for ASRock. Yours is a rather old specimen. Usually all except the cheapest (50A Vishays SiC6xx) DrMOS parts have a thermal shutdown flag and OCP, but I wouldn't count on discrete mosfets (and the godawful PWM controllers they're using here) to have the same.

When it's stock a Ryzen 3000/5000 will draw on a lot of telemetry to protect *itself*, but I've not yet seen a Ryzen CPU throttle itself to protect a VRM. I don't think the CPU receives info like that, and the hardware here is certainly not new enough/ not smart enough to provide current/temp monitoring. If the power delivery is garbage and has no functioning OCP/OTP protections of its own, not much to stand in the way of a fireworks show, I'm afraid.

If you replace the board, check up thoroughly on the CPU. DDR4 VRM went kaput on my Aorus ITX board a few months ago, and crippled a lot of functions on the SoC side of my 5700G as well.


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## Zach_01 (Jul 30, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Ryzen 3000/5000 has very fine control over just about anything* but I've not yet seen a Ryzen CPU throttle itself to protect a VRM*. If the power delivery is garbage and has no functioning OCP/OTP protections of its own, not much to stand in the way of a fireworks show, I'm afraid.


I believe that's why TDC exists

*Thermal Design Current (“TDC”): *The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in thermally-constrained scenarios.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Mussels said:


> PBO changes those settings and the ones you used in RM disabled them entirely



That's a bit different than what I remember.  But there is a good chanced perhaps I misunderstood this article many years ago.  Or have the rules changed too?








						Explaining AMD Ryzen Precision Boost Overdrive (PBO), AutoOC, & Benchmarks
					

With the launch of the Ryzen 3000 series processors, we’ve noticed a distinct confusion among readers and viewers when it comes to the phrases “Precision Boost 2,” “XFR,” “Precision Boost Overdrive,” which is different from Precision Boost, and “AutoOC.” There is also a lot of confusion about...




					www.gamersnexus.net
				






Mussels said:


> That said, no one would expect the board to die - just thermal throttle, even with stock cooling


Yea melting to death wasn't what I expected.



tabascosauz said:


> 142W is still in the realm of "doable with more cooling". 200W on hardware like that is just considered playing with fire, lol.
> 
> ASRock makes some of the most god awful VRMs, but they are also usually very trigger-happy with over-current protection on the awful boards. Not sure why nothing happened here, but then again the conservative throttling might be more a post-2020 thing for ASRock. Yours is a rather old specimen. Usually all except the cheapest (50A Vishays SiC6xx) DrMOS parts have a thermal shutdown flag and OCP, but I wouldn't count on discrete mosfets (and the godawful PWM controllers they're using here) to have the same.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming I'm going to get a new board at this point.  What should I look for regarding the CPU potential damage?



Ferrum Master said:


> Btw as a fellow EK Monoblock user... what kind of torque you use to tighten everything up? Are you aware of the numbers?
> 
> You should do heavy PBO undervolt, limit currents and you should be fine. Do not use any Windows level crap for adjusting mission critical stuff.


To the motherboard it is just regular screws.  on the outer edges for the VRM I have to be careful not to overtighten or it can warp the board.  This was one of the reasons I think EK specification for the pads might not have been thick enough but when I pre-test the mounting and remove the block I check if I am making good enough impressions in the thermal pad to know good contact is being made.  Not very scientific I know.

If you mean regarding the block reassembly?  I just do it by hand being careful not to overtighten them, approximating the torque I needed to remove them.  I didn't have any leaks or cracks in the acrylic of any of my blocks so far.  I should probably get the right tool for it for the long term.  I don't know the numbers.


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## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> I believe that's why TDC exists
> 
> *Thermal Design Current (“TDC”): *The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in thermally-constrained scenarios.



TDC has absolutely nothing to do with VRM OCP. SVI2 and Ryzen is smart, it's not omniscient. Everything in the past 3 years just points to TDC being a long-term counterpart to EDC.

In theory, PROCHOT EXT (external) sounds like a way for external sources to throttle the CPU, but again a very murky subject and a different topic.



A Computer Guy said:


> I'm assuming I'm going to get a new board at this point.  What should I look for regarding the CPU potential damage?



Mine was a little different being an APU, most of my damage was done to stuff in the SoC domain, so Fabric, memory controller and iGPU were all seriously affected. If I had to guess for yours, probably just any crashing/lower performance/significantly lower clocks than what you'd normally expect.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> I'm surprised you made it this far, unless you usually only game and don't run any full loads that max out PPT (all-core CPU rendering). But even still, 5900X and 5950X draw like 100W in most games, which is a lot for this board, and why don't usually recommend anything > 3700X on these 4-phase SInopower boards.


The only reason I made it is likely because of that monoblock and having given up on PBO until today's adventure.



tabascosauz said:


> TDC has absolutely nothing to do with VRM OCP. SVI2 and Ryzen is smart, it's not omniscient. Everything in the past 3 years just points to TDC being a long-term counterpart to EDC.
> 
> In theory, PROCHOT EXT (external) sounds like a way for external sources to throttle the CPU, but again a very murky subject and a different topic.
> 
> ...


Well it's will be a learning experience to find out.  I will take picture of my teardown and tests.  Hopefully others will learn from my mistakes.



> Mussels said:
> That said, no one would expect the board to die - just thermal throttle, even with stock cooling


Yea VRM melting to death wasn't what I expected.  -  I should probably clarify why I had this perhaps short sighted expectation.   

Up until this point in my mind I thought the biggest risk to CPU damage when overclocking Ryzen was manually adjusting the voltages especially if it's too high on all core workloads.
This is why in Ryzen master I choose not to manually set voltage and (by assumption) let the CPU do it - by excluding the voltage control in the Ryzen Master OC profile.
It didn't occur to me at the time while the CPU has means to protect itself (voltage, current, heat) it won't to jack to protect the VRM from doing crazy - or the end user for that matter.


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## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> If you mean regarding the block reassembly?  I just do it by hand being careful not to overtighten them, approximating the torque I needed to remove them.  I didn't have any leaks or cracks in the acrylic of any of my blocks so far.  I should probably get the right tool for it for the long term.  I don't know the numbers.



Actually I had a crack on mine. The V shaped screws are not welcome on the block edges. I haven't touched the block and put it on without any checking after the purchase, after a year a so I moved to a new PC case and redid my loop and noticed a crack developing. On the newer models they do not use V shaped grooves anymore and use normal screws. I guess they learned it the hard way also.

Long story short, they sent me a new block, *all fine with EK support*, now I put washers a top. But the story is, I've asked for the torque pressure settings that are not mentioned anywhere. Those are 0.6Nm-0.8Nm and that's rather tight. Keep a note on that, if you have a dyno screwdriver use it, replace the screws and put some washers.

It might be you really lack pressure on the VRM parts also.


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## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Actually I had a crack on mine. The V shaped screws are not welcome on the block edges. I haven't touched the block and put it on without any checking after the purchase, after a year a so I moved to a new PC case and redid my loop and noticed a crack developing. On the newer models they do not use V shaped grooves anymore and use normal screws. I guess they learned it the hard way also.


Funny thing I found that monoblock by mistake and it was on sale on the cheap in the clearance section at EK at the time so I figured hey why not give it a try.  By V shaped you mean the head of the screw?  I'm pretty sure my are straight but the head is v shaped and recessed.  To my knowledge the screws only need to be tight enough evenly across the block to get the gaskets to seal.  You don't need to crush the gaskets and of course too tight and the acrylic will crack.


Ferrum Master said:


> Long story short, they sent me a new block, *all fine with EK support*, now I put washers a top. But the story is, I've asked for the torque pressure settings that are not mentioned anywhere. Those are 0.6Nm-0.8Nm and that's rather tight. Keep a note on that, if you have a dyno screwdriver use it, replace the screws and put some washers.
> 
> It might be you really lack pressure on the VRM parts also.


Yea that was on my mind.  The VRM's even with the monoblock always did seem a bit high but it was manageable.

At this point if my board is toast it won't matter.  

Now I'm not sure if I want to get a CPU block so I have to research what will fit in an original 011D case for a 5950x
but on the other hand all I need is a CPU block now if I reuse everything else (except new mb) as I don't have a suitable air cooler on hand and EK only makes x570 monoblocks for non-asrock boards now and none for B550.

- Quantum Magnitude (wallet raping expensive)
or
- EK-Quantum Velocity² (this looks like it might be good for 5950x but I'm not sure I like the mounting, similar to the monoblock mounting per the diagrams)
or
- EK-Quantum Velocity (looks like the affordable option) and there are some on sale now too.  only $45 for EK-Quantum Velocity - AMD Nickel + Plexi.  They want another $42 just for RGB...no thanks, I'll take the non-RGB this time.


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## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Funny thing I found that monoblock by mistake and it was on sale on the cheap in the clearance section at EK at the time so I figured hey why not give it a try.  By V shaped you mean the head of the screw?  I'm pretty sure my are straight but the head is v shaped and recessed.  To my knowledge the screws only need to be tight enough evenly across the block to get the gaskets to seal.  You don't need to crush the gaskets and of course too tight and the acrylic will crack.
> 
> Yea that was on my mind.  The VRM's even with the monoblock always did seem a bit high but it was manageable.
> 
> ...



The new Velocity seems pretty competitive if you get it for the right price.

Otherwise the top tier blocks for AM4 should still be Optimus Foundation and TechN AM4. I have the Optimus, a real tank of a block.

The monoblocks are nice, but all the higher end B550 or X570 boards have such overkill VRMs for AM4 that you may as well take the extra performance from a top block.

AM5 seems to preserve cooler compatibility as well, so you could keep that block for next gen too.


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## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Funny thing I found that monoblock by mistake and it was on sale on the cheap in the clearance section at EK at the time so I figured hey why not give it a try.  By V shaped you mean the head of the screw?  I'm pretty sure my are straight but the head is v shaped and recessed.  To my knowledge the screws only need to be tight enough evenly across the block to get the gaskets to seal.  You don't need to crush the gaskets and of course too tight and the acrylic will crack.
> 
> Yea that was on my mind.  The VRM's even with the monoblock always did seem a bit high but it was manageable.
> 
> ...



Yes, the head of the screw. The Arclyc has a groove also. Well I haven't looked on your block to be sure, but mine did have V shaped ones and that's strange.

I have a 011D. My body is ready for new GPUs series needing two PSU's to run it lol. You are free to ask any questions regarding custom loop in it. It still has some unpleasant surprises.

EK EK... but those are shit for CPU temps... I'm sorry but it is what it is. I had a Aquacomputer cuplex kryos NEXT for my old X99 platform. In their store a saw a retrofit for 15€, they sell new mounts for AM4 to use your old block, and damn even an angled one to have the jet point on the dies... I sold the block and made the assembly on the client's PC, also a custom loop. The temps were so much better than mine, I had a sellers remorse ffs...

Just use a proper CPU waterblock and leave the stock VRM heatsinks on, just buy a decent mobo, that doesn't have problems with VRM temps.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Just use a proper CPU waterblock and leave the stock VRM heatsinks on, just buy a decent mobo, that doesn't have problems with VRM temps.


Yea I'm just grinding my teeth now because I really dislike the x570 chipset fan.
https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-pg-velocita/p/N82E16813157969  is on my mind a the moment and one of the more recent x570 boards.


----------



## Chomiq (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Yea I'm just grinding my teeth now because I really dislike the x570 chipset fan.
> https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-pg-velocita/p/N82E16813157969  is on my mind a the moment and one of the more recent x570 boards.


People really need to take their heads out of their a**es. There's nothing wrong with X570 having a fan on the chipset if that fan sits idle 99% of the time. It's been 3 years already.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Yea I'm just grinding my teeth now because I really dislike the x570 chipset fan.
> https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-pg-velocita/p/N82E16813157969  is on my mind a the moment and one of the more recent x570 boards.



If you really dislike the PCH fan, the X570S Tomahawk is on Newegg for 10 bucks more at $229. I'd take that any day over the Velocita, MSI's BIOS fan control UI is great. tbh with ASRock I'd either take the Steel Legend for value, or the Taichi. Everything else in between is basically a marked up, copy-paste rehash of the Steel Legend in different colours.

PG Velocita is "new" in that it released concurrently with B550 basically, but that's still pretty old compared to X570S and second-wave B550 boards.

MSI MAG X570S TOMAHAWK MAX WIFI AM4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Newegg.com

The fan isn't really a big deal, but not all board makers have the same control over its behaviour and fanspeed, so best way to ensure it isn't a problem is still either B550 or X570S. On the Impact I have both of mine tiny fans (PCH and VRM) at a low speed, but out of the box they do spin pretty fast.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Yea I'm just grinding my teeth now because I really dislike the x570 chipset fan.
> https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-pg-velocita/p/N82E16813157969  is on my mind a the moment and one of the more recent x570 boards.



I have a above average hearing in few dB than average people, I really don't notice it in my Asus X570-E, the pump being the loudest part while idle.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> EK EK... but those are shit for CPU temps... I'm sorry but it is what it is. I had a Aquacomputer cuplex kryos NEXT for my old X99 platform. In their store a saw a retrofit for 15€, they sell new mounts for AM4 to use your old block, and damn even an angled one to have the jet point on the dies... I sold the block and made the assembly on the client's PC, also a custom loop. The temps were so much better than mine, I had a sellers remorse ffs...


I started with EK as a noob.  So far it's been ok for me but to their credit when DHL delivered my distroplate to east junhunga instead of my house, and then refused to go get it back, EK did send me a new one free of charge via UPS.  This is probably my first and only water-cooled build I will ever do but it's been fun.  I'll probably switch to primochill tubing when my current tubing has had enough because I didn't realize ZMT didn't come in the size for my current fittings.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I started with EK as a noob.  So far it's been ok for me but to their credit when DHL delivered my distroplate to east junhunga instead of my house, and then refused to go get it back, EK did send me a new one free of charge via UPS.  This is probably my first and only water-cooled build I will ever do but it's been fun.  I'll probably switch to primochill tubing when my current tubing has had enough because I didn't realize ZMT didn't come in the size for my current fittings.



I use Tygon R3400 tubing for mine... don't overcomplicate things.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> If you really dislike the PCH fan, the X570S Tomahawk is on Newegg for 10 bucks more at $229. I'd take that any day over the Velocita, MSI's BIOS fan control UI is great. tbh with ASRock I'd either take the Steel Legend for value, or the Taichi. Everything else in between is basically a marked up, copy-paste rehash of the Steel Legend in different colours.
> 
> PG Velocita is "new" in that it released concurrently with B550 basically, but that's still pretty old compared to X570S and second-wave B550 boards.
> 
> ...


The thing is have already invested quite a bit in ECC RAM and my trust in ASRock implementing that is pretty solid right now.  
I don't think MSI offers ECC but I haven't seen their recent offerings although I like their Tomahawk series.
Asrock X570s board isn't appealing to me and is a no go.
Taichi X570 was going to be my other consideration but pricy, maybe the B550 of that.  

Perhaps I'll take a harder look at Steel Legend.








						ASRock X570 STEEL LEGEND WIFI AX AM4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Newegg.com
					

Buy ASRock X570 STEEL LEGEND WIFI AX AM4 AMD X570 SATA 6Gb/s ATX AMD Motherboard with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				



- WiFi & Intel LAN check
- ECC check
- 128GB ram check + bonus
- 2 NVMe check
- Seems fairly priced
- PCI Express 4.0 x16 (bonus)


----------



## Zach_01 (Jul 30, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> TDC has absolutely nothing to do with VRM OCP. SVI2 and Ryzen is smart, it's not omniscient. Everything in the past 3 years just points to TDC being a long-term counterpart to EDC.
> 
> In theory, PROCHOT EXT (external) sounds like a way for external sources to throttle the CPU


Another explanation I found

_Thermal design current is the sustained (DC equivalent) current that a load is capable of drawing indefinitely and defines the current to use for voltage regulator temperature calculations._

I’ve read (from HWiNFO author) that PROCHOT EXT can be triggered by VRM overheating but I was under the impression that this will happen at a certain very high limit which can be well over 100C as it’s usually the typical max temp of VRMs. At least for the good ones…

—————————————

BTW the Ryzen CPU is alleged to be smart enough to protect and regulate it self no matter what are the PBO limits, though personally I do question this after CO/PBO era of 5000.
And we saw many times that boards are driving the CPU beyond stock limits and while those limits are enabled too. (see PowerReportingDaviation for 1 example).

And of course ”common sense” is always needed besides the CPU “intelligence“.
IMHO a board can do harm to it self or the CPU if you leave it “free” while playing with CO/PBO/scalar.
The user is the one that should set the limits, and not the board. Also the user must lower expectations and GHz hunting

_________________________

Also X570nonS is just fine. With the right air flow that little fan never works and temp stays under 60 at loaded situations.


----------



## Valantar (Jul 30, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Another explanation I found
> 
> _Thermal design current is the sustained (DC equivalent) current that a load is capable of drawing indefinitely and defines the current to use for voltage regulator temperature calculations._
> 
> I’ve read (from HWiNFO author) that PROCHOT EXT can be triggered by VRM overheating but I was under the impression that this will happen at a certain very high limit which can be well over 100C as it’s usually the typical max temp of VRMs. At least for the good ones…


What this tells us is that for motherboards without DrMOS/smart power stages (i.e. simpler VRMs without thermal sensors), VRM temperatures can be estimated through an equation based on TDC. That is of course dependent on the motherboard making such a calculation and having some kind of protetction mechanism linked to this - the CPU can't, as the equation will vary dependent on the VRM layout.


Zach_01 said:


> BTW the Ryzen CPU is alleged to be smart enough to protect and regulate it self no matter what are the PBO limits, though personally I do question this after CO/PBO era of 5000.
> And we saw many times that boards are driving the CPU beyond stock limits and while those limits are enabled too. (see PowerReportingDaviation for 1 example).
> 
> And of course ”common sense” is always needed besides the CPU “intelligence“.
> ...


The CPU should absolutely be able to self-regulate and protect itself, but it can't protect the VRM, as the VRM isn't controlled by the CPU's protection circuitry.


----------



## phill (Jul 30, 2022)

I find with any of the AM4 boards I have, I always have gone over spec for what they are doing simply because, I'd rather spend a few quid more on the board to make sure it'll do everything and more than I'd like than not spend out a few quid. 

Even buying second hand boards I've had no issues with them, so I'm either very lucky or just staying in spec lol    With any sort of testing and such, always keep an eye on your temps for VRMs and of course CPU and such like.. if a temp starts rocketing up, there's a reason and generally cooling/capability will be your limiting factor. 

Have you got anything in mind of what you'd look at to replace it??


----------



## maxfly (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I started with EK as a noob.  So far it's been ok for me but to their credit when DHL delivered my distroplate to east junhunga instead of my house, and then refused to go get it back, EK did send me a new one free of charge via UPS.  This is probably my first and only water-cooled build I will ever do but it's been fun.  I'll probably switch to primochill tubing when my current tubing has had enough because I didn't realize ZMT didn't come in the size for my current fittings.


EK blocks are solid performers but generally stupid expensive. If you can get one on the cheap, do it. Finding ANY top tier blocks for a reasonable price is next to impossible now and considering they are all within a couple of degrees of one another, your down to cs, warranty and trust.
 You can't go wrong with primochill lrt. Its easily the best soft tubing I've ever used and I've tried just about all of them. If your a miser (like me) or know exactly what you need, ppcs sells it by the foot to save a few bucks.

 But man, I'm truly shocked that Asrock jacked that mb up like that! Pulling that kind of bs is criminal in my book, particularly if it damaged other gear. I look forward to seeing what your cooked vrms look like in that morbid geeky way we all enjoy. I especially look forward to your posting said pics/results and your story to their social media pages. If for nothing else than to see what they have to say about the vrm bs. If they respond at all. Probably the latter I'm guessing.
GL with the mb search!


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

maxfly said:


> EK blocks are solid performers but generally stupid expensive. If you can get one on the cheap, do it. Finding ANY top tier blocks for a reasonable price is next to impossible now and considering they are all within a couple of degrees of one another, your down to cs, warranty and trust.
> You can't go wrong with primochill lrt. Its easily the best soft tubing I've ever used and I've tried just about all of them. If your a miser (like me) or know exactly what you need, ppcs sells it by the foot to save a few bucks.
> 
> But man, I'm truly shocked that Asrock jacked that mb up like that! Pulling that kind of bs is criminal in my book, particularly if it damaged other gear. I look forward to seeing what your cooked vrms look like in that morbid geeky way we all enjoy. I especially look forward to your posting said pics/results and your story to their social media pages. If for nothing else than to see what they have to say about the vrm bs. If they respond at all. Probably the latter I'm guessing.
> GL with the mb search!


I completed the teardown just now.  Hopefully I'll be able to post the pictures soon.  To keep everyone in suspense VRM's actually look fine but oh boy the CPU socket was melted to the CPU.  I can't wait to post the pictures.


----------



## maxfly (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I completed the teardown just now.  Hopefully I'll be able to post the pictures soon.  To keep everyone in suspense VRM's actually look fine but oh boy the CPU socket was melted to the CPU.  I can't wait to post the pictures.



Oh no. That's horrendous man! Absolutely worst case scenario.
 I feel terrible for you


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

I don't have time to post everything just yet but here is a picture of the CPU and socket.  After about 30mins of very careful prying, I managed to extract the chip without breaking any pins.


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Jul 30, 2022)

Wow. AsRock keeps their reputation through the years.


----------



## mstenholm (Jul 30, 2022)

So go-fast stribes doesn’t work in real life? @A Computer Guy I hope that your CPU is still good.


----------



## maxfly (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I don't have time to post everything just yet but here is a picture of the CPU and socket.  After about 30mins of very careful prying, I managed to extract the chip without breaking any pins.
> 
> View attachment 256439


 Damn... that's some of the worst damage I've seen in a very long time (to a modern cpu). It actually caught on fire, unfuckingbelievable! That's a lot of dough to have to choke down because of a shitty mb.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

3 washes later....  it cleaned up nicely, looks like 1 pin lost a bit of gold.  








The monoblock VRM thermal pads were intact but you can see that the mounting pressure in the middle looks insufficient for the thermal pad thickness EK recommended.  





Here is a image of the rear side of the board




Another angle of the topside (in sunlight)





During my teardown I'd figure I'd capture an image of how I keep my RGB extension cables from falling apart using 4 zip ties.





Using slim fans at the bottom of 011D when ATX motherboard is installed you can see how it gives you some comfortable room at the bottom of the case for cable access.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 30, 2022)

Hi,
Yep looks like the board bent think that bad spot was there out of the box or heat cause that :/
Could need a back plate as well.

I've used a few mono blocks and they are a pita even more so if you don't prep the back of the case so you can easily remove it without removing the board.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

GPU block looking good on rx5000 reference card $280 newegg special.  Best deal ever right before the GPU price hikes.  I regret not buying 2.
The blower cooler was total crap after a few months so this card will never be air cooled again.







ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yep looks like the board bent think that bad spot was there out of the box or heat cause that :/
> Could need a back plate as well.
> 
> I've used a few mono blocks and they are a pita even more so if you don't prep the back of the case so you can easily remove it without removing the board.


I did have a CPU back plate for the monoblock.  Pretty sure it ended up acting like a heat sink for a few seconds.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> The thing is have already invested quite a bit in ECC RAM and my trust in ASRock implementing that is pretty solid right now.
> I don't think MSI offers ECC but I haven't seen their recent offerings although I like their Tomahawk series.
> Asrock X570s board isn't appealing to me and is a no go.
> Taichi X570 was going to be my other consideration but pricy, maybe the B550 of that.
> ...



All B550 and X570s offer a single x16 lane of PCIe 4.0. If you're referring to the second x16 slot, it looks to be wired electrically for x4 on most of these boards.

Practically, the only thing the X570 offers is a second 4.0 x4 NVMe slot, the B550 will only have one 4.0 slot. If you don't need that, you won't lose out with B550.

X570 and B550 Steel Legend have no BIOS flashback so if somehow you get old stock without a bootable BIOS for 5950X, you'll have to return it. Fortunately that should be exceedingly unlikely for both boards, since they've always been popular boards moving a lot of stock. PG Velocita does have BIOS flashback, all things considered it isn't that bad of a deal at the $210 sale price, since it is also a 6-layer board over the 4-layer (albeit excellent 4-layer) Steel Legend.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

During custom loop disassembly I noticed a small screw fell onto my workbench.  Here I finally found out where it came from.  Was holding the I/O shround










tabascosauz said:


> All B550 and X570s offer a single x16 lane of PCIe 4.0. If you're referring to the second x16 slot, it looks to be wired electrically for x4 on most of these boards.
> 
> Practically, the only thing the X570 offers is a second 4.0 x4 NVMe slot, the B550 will only have one 4.0 slot. If you don't need that, you won't lose out with B550.
> 
> X570 and B550 Steel Legend have no BIOS flashback so if somehow you get old stock without a bootable BIOS for 5950X, you'll have to return it. Fortunately that should be exceedingly unlikely for both boards, since they've always been popular boards moving a lot of stock. PG Velocita does have BIOS flashback, all things considered it isn't that bad of a deal at the $210 sale price, since it is also a 6-layer board over the 4-layer (albeit excellent 4-layer) Steel Legend.


PG Velocita also had the 2.5GB network interface which I might end up making use of in the future although I'm unsure of the quality of the chip.

Getting the monoblock off is a real PITA.  So I use this little tool to wedge in between the cpu and block when wiggling the block to help break the bond so I don't rip the CPU out of the socket.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> PG Velocita also had the 2.5GB network interface which I might end up making use of in the future although I'm unsure of the quality of the chip.



Can't say anything about the E3100. Killer (now Intel) had a horrible reputation all around on 1Gbe, and I think only one other AM4 board has 2.5Gbe Killer.

Realtek 2.5Gbe (RTL8125*)* is everywhere and solid (must have had like 4 or 5 boards with it now), as long as it's not the Dragon "gaming" variant (RTL8125BG). Intel i225 had a lot of problems at launch, should be much better now.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

The CPU socket was melted in on the edge of the CPU.  Took some very careful prying to get the CPU out.







maxfly said:


> EK blocks are solid performers but generally stupid expensive. If you can get one on the cheap, do it. Finding ANY top tier blocks for a reasonable price is next to impossible now and considering they are all within a couple of degrees of one another, your down to cs, warranty and trust.
> You can't go wrong with primochill lrt. Its easily the best soft tubing I've ever used and I've tried just about all of them. If your a miser (like me) or know exactly what you need, ppcs sells it by the foot to save a few bucks.
> 
> But man, I'm truly shocked that Asrock jacked that mb up like that! Pulling that kind of bs is criminal in my book, particularly if it damaged other gear. I look forward to seeing what your cooked vrms look like in that morbid geeky way we all enjoy. I especially look forward to your posting said pics/results and your story to their social media pages. If for nothing else than to see what they have to say about the vrm bs. If they respond at all. Probably the latter I'm guessing.
> GL with the mb search!


I'm thinking of opening a support ticket with them.  Maybe if I get lucky they will send me an x470 Tiachi but I really doubt it.

The first cleaning - no joy.





The last farewell before disassembly




This little drain valve I installed last month was great.  2/3 of the loop drained fast.  Good enough that I could quickly disconnect all the blocks and plug all the ports.





The wife forced me to have a lunch break. 




Disconnected enough hoses to get the GPU and motherboard out.





Darn you Corsair... RGB madness!


----------



## maxfly (Jul 30, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> 3 washes later....  it cleaned up nicely, looks like 1 pin lost a bit of gold.
> View attachment 256443
> 
> View attachment 256442
> ...


Woohoo! Your proc actually looks ALOT better than I thought it would ever get! The way the socket was melted I didn't think there was any way in hell it would survive. Now? There may be some hope for it afterall!

 Those vrm blocks on the other hand. Lesson learned- always, always dry fit your blocks. 
Have you checked those vrm blocks for flatness? Im dieing to know what they look like. I can't imagine mounting pressure alone could have caused them or the mb to pull away/bow like that. Unless that mb pcb is made of friggin paper, they should have made better contact than a gpu block. If they are in fact as bowed as they look. I wonder if you can send some pictures to EK and see what they have to say?

Wow. That mbs ovp/ocp sure did its job lol. It just let whatever voltage went nuts, go right on cooking!
You were lucky to have cut power when you did.


----------



## Valantar (Jul 30, 2022)

Any pics of the socket/pcb after the CPU was removed? From what little I can tell of that shot of the CPU installed, it looks like some traces on the motherboard overheated? That's, uh, disturbing. Also, if the socket plastic melted... that plastic is very, very heat resistant - it needs to withstand not only a hot CPU, but its large pin array being soldered to the board, i.e. >230°C (the melting point of unleaded solder) for short periods of time. If the PCB has started melting? That's several hundred degrees C.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 30, 2022)

maxfly said:


> Woohoo! Your proc actually looks ALOT better than I thought it would ever get! The way the socket was melted I didn't think there was any way in hell it would survive. Now? There may be some hope for it afterall!


The CPU was only 80 some degrees when I flipped the switch so I am hopeful but the time from the puff of smoke to the off button still could have been a kill shot.


maxfly said:


> Those vrm blocks on the other hand. Lesson learned- always, always dry fit your blocks.
> Have you checked those vrm blocks for flatness? Im dieing to know what they look like. I can't imagine mounting pressure alone could have caused them or the mb to pull away/bow like that. Unless that mb pcb is made of friggin paper, they should have made better contact than a gpu block. If they are in fact as bowed as they look. I wonder if you can send some pictures to EK and see what they have to say?


Previously I didn't but now that I am looking at them they do have so ever small a curve.  The VRM mounts were tricky because you could crank down on them too much and warp the board in the process so it was a bit of a balancing act.  I did dry fit them each time calibrating roughly how tight I needed the screws to make impressions in the pad.  It's difficult to see but most of the VRM's chips do have an ever so slight impression in the pad.  Clearly though I did need to use a thicker pad in retrospect for better contact in the middle.


maxfly said:


> Wow. That mbs ovp/ocp sure did its job lol. It just let whatever voltage went nuts, go right on cooking!
> You were lucky to have cut power when you did.


I should have just stopped and inspected for damage the first time but I was impatient and trying to see if I could get quick readouts on the VRM and Water temps before tearing it down for inspection.  The VRM temps spiked hugely the 2nd time around and was very fast likely in part because of the damage already done from the first attempt.



Valantar said:


> Any pics of the socket/pcb after the CPU was removed? From what little I can tell of that shot of the CPU installed, it looks like some traces on the motherboard overheated? That's, uh, disturbing. Also, if the socket plastic melted... that plastic is very, very heat resistant - it needs to withstand not only a hot CPU, but its large pin array being soldered to the board, i.e. >230°C (the melting point of unleaded solder) for short periods of time. If the PCB has started melting? That's several hundred degrees C.


Yes I posted pics of that early in the thread.  Here  https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...busted-custom-loop.297316/page-2#post-4804460


----------



## freeagent (Jul 30, 2022)

I feel terrible about what happened to your hardware 

That pizza looks really good though..


----------



## phill (Jul 31, 2022)

Any plans for your next steps?   What you plan on getting/doing?


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 31, 2022)

phill said:


> Any plans for your next steps?   What you plan on getting/doing?



I have two ideas

*1) Just get a replacement board for my daily driver.*

I already have quite an investment around my 011D case so getting something with that is my best option to spend the least amount of cash.
If my 5950x is toast I can still fall back to my 3950x and just wait for the AM5 platform to mature a bit and reconsider my options.

Thinking about the following options more and what fits best for my current setup.

a) - https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-steel-legend-wifi-ax/p/N82E16813157894
           not a fan of some of the color scheme for the shrouds but some spray paint can fix that
           does not have USBC header for 011D ( I didn't have one for the Master SLI/ac so not much of a loss )
           this is reasonably priced and seems basically a matching replacement feature for feature (or even a bit better) for what I had plus better VRM
*           Still considering this*

b) - https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-taichi/p/N82E16813157883?Item=N82E16813157883
           USBC header likely unusable because of conflicting position with graphics card
           older and perhaps a more proven and reliable series, but also priced a bit higher
           has more layers than steel legend, higher quality PCB?
*           I am heavy leaning in this direction as a replacement*

c) - https://www.newegg.com/asus-prime-x570-pro/p/N82E16813119196R
           I might consider this Asus board.

c) - https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-pg-velocita/p/N82E16813157969?Item=N82E16813157969
           unsure about the quality of the Killer E3100G 2.5GB LAN, I've seen some complaints, nice on paper and good a nice to have if it really works well, if junk then worst case scenario get addin card for LAN
           nahimic audio, my ITX board has this and it broke with windows update so non-working feature I don't want to pay for
           a bit cheaper than Tiachi, the chipset fan is unobstructed so also easy to clean too

*2) Take my home server ASRock B450m Pro4 (rev1) R5-2700 and swap in the 5950x/3950x into that and repurpose that as my daily driver.  *

It's basically setup and all ready to go other than swapping out the CPU,  I have to wait for my CPU waterblock to arrive for that.
According to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...qVxdCR9daIVNyMatydkpFA/htmlview#gid=639584818
this should be doable with 3950x (no PBO or overclocking of course) but I will have some all core workloads so I worry if that is really feasible with this board.
I kind of don't want to bother with this option but at the same time have been eyeing this board in the below link off and on as a home server board.
- https://www.newegg.com/asrock-rack-...eneration-series-processors/p/N82E16813140023
           Get this board to possibly replace home server (b450m) this since the price is back down but it lacks of rear USB is a bit of problem.
           I already have one PCIe slot adding 8 sata ports might have to get a USB3 card.



phill said:


> Any plans for your next steps?   What you plan on getting/doing?


I also created a support ticket with ASRock although I have no expectations of anything happening.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 31, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Yea I'm just grinding my teeth now because I really dislike the x570 chipset fan.
> https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-pg-velocita/p/N82E16813157969  is on my mind a the moment and one of the more recent x570 boards.


It's not as bad as early reports made it seem

A few early shitty boards had no RPM control, that was the Asus Tuf amongst others

Then asus screwed up the X570-E and -F with a nasty therma pad - quick replacement for 10C+ drop and 1K less RPM on the fan
That said, even at 3K RPM it was inaudible


Definitely get something with BIOS flashback, theres a lot of good boards - and a lot of X570S options (or asus just slapping II at the end, despite being x570S) with all the benefits of B550 as well (passive cooled, newer wifi/eth chipsets)

And seriously, that board was more cooked than the pizza


and the pizza looked cooked


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 31, 2022)

Mussels said:


> And seriously, that board was more cooked than the pizza


The smell was really bad.  Still after cleaning the CPU several times today it still smells like burned plastic and/or pcb.  Really annoying.


----------



## maxfly (Jul 31, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> The smell was really bad.  Still after cleaning the CPU several times today it still smells like burned plastic and/or pcb.  Really annoying.


Bleh, good ol burned electronics. Kicks up its feet and sets up house in your nose smell.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 31, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I have two ideas
> 
> *2) Take my home server ASRock B450m Pro4 (rev1) R5-2700 and swap in the 5950x/3950x into that and repurpose that as my daily driver.  *



The Pro4 is literally a 3-phase doubled Vcore. The other 3 phases are wasted on SOC. Your K4 was at least a 4-phase Vcore, and with bigger heatsinks. Exact same Sinopower garbage on both boards.

Does the Pro4 at least have a software-visible temp sensor embedded near the mosfets so you can keep an eye on things? If you still run watercooling it'll be pretty much mandatory to strap a ghetto fan to the heatsinks, lest you wanna end up the same way as the K4. Even at 142W, it's a big ask of a 3-phase.

If you're looking to save a buck, I don't see any reason why you need these X570 boards. You don't have multiple 4.0 NVMes, and all the boards you're looking at have direct almost copy-paste B550 counterparts at lower prices. Completely removes the worry about cleaning the PCH fan as well.

Taichi is a stout board, and that price ain't bad either. No way the PG velocita is a good deal over the Taichi.


----------



## Valantar (Jul 31, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Yes I posted pics of that early in the thread. Here https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...busted-custom-loop.297316/page-2#post-4804460


That is ... such a strange place on the socket for that to happen. There aren't any high current voltage lines in that area, just some (of many, many) vSOC pins, and a bunch of data lines of various types. Makes me wonder if this wasn't actually power related at all, though that seems unlikely.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 31, 2022)

Valantar said:


> That is ... such a strange place on the socket for that to happen. There aren't any high current voltage lines in that area, just some (of many, many) vSOC pins, and a bunch of data lines of various types. Makes me wonder if this wasn't actually power related at all, though that seems unlikely.


custom loop, coulda had leakies. it happens.

Now OP just has to decide what type of board they want, to avoid poopy VRM shenanigans for round two.
Find your top 3 boards and let us argue over them?


----------



## harm9963 (Jul 31, 2022)

When I first got my 5950X , it went into ASUS X470 PRO,  was temporally , like a month , since then ,over a year + with a ASUS DARK HERO X570 , best combination for me , never use PBO , only DOCS .


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 31, 2022)

Hi,
Stay the hell away from asus prime it's just a bloated pos

1-B is best route.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 31, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Stay the hell away from asus prime it's just a bloated pos
> 
> 1-B is best route.


Does that include this?  
https://www.newegg.com/asus-prime-x570-pro/p/N82E16813119196R

It was looking at it as an interesting alternative to x570 Tiachi.  I had a great experience with at Asus P5E-WS Pro and Core-2 Quad Q6600.  Ran it for about 10 years before a forced Win10 update destroyed my RAID-6 driver reliability and that's when I took a look at AM4 after skipping the 1st gen Zen.


----------



## freeagent (Jul 31, 2022)

Sorry about the pizza comment, I was hungry and just getting ready to bbq.

Really hungry.. 

American food looks good


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 31, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Now OP just has to decide what type of board they want, to avoid poopy VRM shenanigans for round two.
> Find your top 3 boards and let us argue over them?


Here is what I've got.  The some requirements are:
- Must support ECC so I can reuse my current RAM (64GB minimum)
- Plenty of USB3 ports, at least 6 (must include 1 USB-C)
- At least 1 internal USB2 port
- At least 2 M.2 (2 NVMe or 1 NVMe + 1 SATA)

1) https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-taichi/p/N82E16813157883?Item=N82E16813157883
*Would go with this if I can't find a more compelling board near the same price point.  *
         $220 doesn't sound unreasonable considering I'm gonna put my 5950x or 3950x into it no matter what and keep it for many years (until it dies)
         While I'm inclined to trust the Tiachi line it hasn't been completely without issues (looking at you x470 Tiachi)
         Pros:  Has the 3rd M.2 which I could actually really use with the limited space in 011D.

2) https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-steel-legend-wifi-ax/p/N82E16813157894
         The price point is hard to argue with but doesn't have bios flashback.  I did pretty well not bricking my Master SLI/ac in terms of BIOS/UEFI updates (I've been though most of them including several betas)  But personally I think BIOS flashback should have been a standard feature across all AM4 boards given the insane number of updates the eco system produced.

3) https://www.newegg.com/asus-prime-x570-pro/p/N82E16813119196R
         I'm willing to try Asus again but unsure of their ECC support
         This one has a header for external temp sensor.

At this point I'm sifting through user reviews of these boards trying to find any gotchas that would disqualify them.



tabascosauz said:


> The Pro4 is literally a 3-phase doubled Vcore. The other 3 phases are wasted on SOC. Your K4 was at least a 4-phase Vcore, and with bigger heatsinks. Exact same Sinopower garbage on both boards.


Good point.  It flusters me why that spreadsheet put the green checkmark in for that board.  I'm inclined to believe it that was a mistake.



freeagent said:


> Sorry about the pizza comment, I was hungry and just getting ready to bbq.
> 
> Really hungry..
> 
> American food looks good


No problem.  It was 1 of 2 slightly humorous elements I put in the thread.  Challenge:  Can anyone find the 2nd?

Potential dislikes Tiachi
- USB-C front panel header location conflict with GPU making it useless to use for my 011D (sad but not a show stopper)
- Chipset fan position blocked or partially blocked  by GPU (since my GPU uses a block this seems a non-issue)
- The "Armor" is a big chunk and requires removing GPU to get to the M.2 (annoying but not a showstopper)

*Major Question is the extra 4 pin for the CPU power still unnecessary?*
This guy says you need it 













Potential dislikes Steel Legend
- Chipset fan position blocked or partially blocked  by GPU (since my GPU uses a block this seems a non-issue)
- The "Armor" is a big chunk and requires removing GPU to get to the M.2 (annoying but not a showstopper)


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 31, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Here is what I've got.  The some requirements are:
> - Must support ECC so I can reuse my current RAM (64GB minimum)
> - Plenty of USB3 ports, at least 6 (must include 1 USB-C)
> - At least 1 internal USB2 port
> ...



Unless you have LN2 planned for your 3950X/5950X, you will never need a second 4-pin or 8-pin for AM4, full stop. Thick pin 8-pin of the kind they use now can take something like 350W. 

Which spreadsheet are you looking at? There's this one that covers everything except newer B550/X570S boards and the Unify-X. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...YZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/htmlview#gid=2112472504

I don't look at VRM lists that make vague recommendations based on guesses of current handling capability. VRM thermal performance has way too many factors to broadly shoehorn a bunch of boards into one category.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jul 31, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Unless you have LN2 planned for your 3950X/5950X, you will never need a second 4-pin or 8-pin for AM4, full stop. Thick pin 8-pin of the kind they use now can take something like 350W.


LN2 is way out of my league.  Won't be doing that anytime soon.


tabascosauz said:


> Which spreadsheet are you looking at? There's this one that covers everything except newer B550/X570S boards and the Unify-X. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...YZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/htmlview#gid=2112472504
> 
> I don't look at VRM lists that make vague recommendations based on guesses of current handling capability. VRM thermal performance has way too many factors to broadly shoehorn a bunch of boards into one category.


I was looking at this one but I don't know how realistic it is other than to warn about potential unreasonable CPU/Motherboard configurations.





						AM4 Vcore VRM Ratings v1.4 (2019-11-07) - Google Drive
					






					docs.google.com
				




I don't think I answered your prior question...


tabascosauz said:


> The Pro4 is literally a 3-phase doubled Vcore. The other 3 phases are wasted on SOC. Your K4 was at least a 4-phase Vcore, and with bigger heatsinks. Exact same Sinopower garbage on both boards.
> 
> Does the Pro4 at least have a software-visible temp sensor embedded near the mosfets so you can keep an eye on things? If you still run watercooling it'll be pretty much mandatory to strap a ghetto fan to the heatsinks, lest you wanna end up the same way as the K4. Even at 142W, it's a big ask of a 3-phase.


I'm not sure about the temp sensor.  Normally I wouldn't have considered sticking the 3950x into the B450 Pro4 but since I have the CPU lying around I pondered the notion of it to have something operating close to what I was using sooner, while I wait for the replacement motherboard.   I stopped considering that option when you pointed out the fact the VRM is the same trash and less phases.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 31, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I'm not sure about the temp sensor.  Normally I wouldn't have considered sticking the 3950x into the B450 Pro4 but since I have the CPU lying around I pondered the notion of it to have something operating close to what I was using sooner, while I wait for the replacement motherboard.   I stopped considering that option when you pointed out the fact the VRM is the same trash and less phases.



Short term should be fine if you need your computer up and running. Crank up the case airflow, point a 92mm fan at the heatsinks, maybe avoid all-core and consider Eco mode/lower PPT or disabling 1 CCD turning it into a 3700X if you have high ambients. Especially if you're like me on the west coast in the middle of a heatwave.


----------



## maxfly (Jul 31, 2022)

It wouldn't be a bad idea to take your 5950x on a test ride anyhow...just to be sure nothing wonky happens.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

maxfly said:


> It wouldn't be a bad idea to take your 5950x on a test ride anyhow...just to be sure nothing wonky happens.


Perhaps I'll test ECO mode with 5950x on the B450m just to to see if it still works.  If that board blows up I won't miss it but I can't blow it up just yet until I have the replacement up and working.


----------



## phill (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I have two ideas
> 
> *1) Just get a replacement board for my daily driver.*
> 
> ...


Well may I suggest rather than worrying about a few pennies, grabbing something that might well be overkill for the uses (but not so overkill like it costs £1000....) but grabbing something decent and making sure it'll cope with anything you throw at it.  As I mentioned, all of my Ryzen CPUs are all under top end boards and yes I know, I'm overkill Phill for a reason.

Doing a lot of crunching with the CPUs I have, 1700X's all the way to 5950X's and even a couple Threadrippers now and that's just a few new ones from AMD (quick side track...  Wanna see the madness that is  me??  Check the project link in the bottom of my sig...  That is all!) but still one thing that I have always learnt from all of the hardware I have, do it right the first time and get something that will over do what you need it too.  When I was reading up on motherboards to buy and such, I wanted the VRMs to be cool and I needed decent power delivery because I was putting the CPUs under a constant 24/7 load and yes I do undervolt/downclock but just knowing that all things being equal I've paid out for my £300 + CPU, now I have the motherboard to actually cope with it.

If you buy cheap, its kinda like buying that Lambo engine for a BMW Mini chassis...  Its just stupid and a waste.  I mean you have got two very nice and high end CPUs, why not spend the extra and do the same for the motherboard/s??   I'm no different when it comes to the PSUs I put in the systems I build, even the ones for my daughters (one of which is 3 and prefers bashing keys on a keyboard rather than doing anything and who can blame her at that age lol  Well, sometimes lol) but use quality kit...  The amount of hardware you have in there and then you buy a £50 PSU and a £100 motherboard, couldn't be a worse combo and I know @Mussels has done some amazing things when its comes to putting all the wrong kit in a build (the project log of it was flipping amazing!!) but if its not worth the extra then don't have the higher end kit and use something middle line...



Spoiler: Enter the crazy...



I mean, when I said high end for the Ryzen CPUs I have, I mean motherboards like these - 








Bottom line for me, spend out the right money for the right hardware the first time, don't have to waste time and more money having to replace it and all sorts of everything else if anything was to go wrong.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 1, 2022)

You want the extra power plug but you dont need it.
It's like 6 pin to 8 pin on a GPU, it helps a little with voltage stability and keeps the temperature of the wires down
by the math people use, i'd never have melted the 2x8 pin extensions on my 3090 - but they melted away at just 300W load.


I think the worst part of the taichis was their really really slow updates, but if they've got the final 1.2.0.7 agesa i dont see much happening any time soon on that front


Dont get budget from any brand. Get something that will last you another 10 years, because a 5950x is going to age like nehalem - it'll be viable for a long, long time.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

I think I've pretty much settled on getting the x570 Tiachi.









						Computer parts, laptops, electronics, and more - Newegg United States
					

Newegg is proud to offer United States the best prices, fast shipping and top-rated customer service for Computer Parts, Laptops, Electronics and more!




					www.newegg.com
				




for about $67 more dollars over the Steel Legend (WiFi) I get 
+ Buttons: Pwr, Rst, *Clr*, and *Flashback*
+ Better VRM
+ Better PCB
*+ Debug LED
+ 3rd M.2 4x4 (when not using PCIE5)*
+ Thunderbolt capable (on PCIE5) via additional ASRock Thunderbolt AIC Card (this card may no longer be available)
+ *Internal front panel USB-C connector*
 (should come with a special cable, or upon request, for revisions of port blocked by GPU)
 (there is a board revision that solves the USB-C front panel connector problem but maybe luck of the draw trying to get that)

Missing out for not getting the Steel Legend
+ PCIe x16/x16 in dual might be more useful vs. Tiachi in dual at x8/x8 where GPU would have less than full x16
+ saving about 67 dollars

$223 seems to be fair price for the Tiachi x570. 

Thoughts?



phill said:


> Well may I suggest rather than worrying about a few pennies, grabbing something that might well be overkill for the uses (but not so overkill like it costs £1000....) but grabbing something decent and making sure it'll cope with anything you throw at it.  As I mentioned, all of my Ryzen CPUs are all under top end boards and yes I know, I'm overkill Phill for a reason.
> 
> Doing a lot of crunching with the CPUs I have, 1700X's all the way to 5950X's and even a couple Threadrippers now and that's just a few new ones from AMD (quick side track...  Wanna see the madness that is  me??  Check the project link in the bottom of my sig...  That is all!) but still one thing that I have always learnt from all of the hardware I have, do it right the first time and get something that will over do what you need it too.  When I was reading up on motherboards to buy and such, I wanted the VRMs to be cool and I needed decent power delivery because I was putting the CPUs under a constant 24/7 load and yes I do undervolt/downclock but just knowing that all things being equal I've paid out for my £300 + CPU, now I have the motherboard to actually cope with it.
> 
> ...


When I got the Master SLI/ac I had a R5 2600.  It was my return to using AMD (after maybe 10 years) and it was fairly good experience and a lot of things to try.  I never really expected Zen2/3 to become available for my MB but when it did I ended up playing the upgrade game (testing the reality of AMD's ecosystem on upgradability) but also passing on equipment that worked well to family for birthdays, Christmas, etc...  according to their needs as I continued to explore.   I'm on my B550 right now which is actually my emergency backup system (when not used for gaming) where I had planned to retire my 3950x with the 5950x being on my daily.


phill said:


> Bottom line for me, spend out the right money for the right hardware the first time, don't have to waste time and more money having to replace it and all sorts of everything else if anything was to go wrong.


I agree, normally try to match my parts with each other.  AM4's unique position with extended backward compatibly is interesting but also full of problems in the long run encouraging users to potentially put suboptimal or just plain bad combos together.  Add overclocking with a bad combo from playing the upgrade game and boom you get exactly what I did.  I think it was a mistake to open 300/400 series boards to 16core when the consistent quality needed for the best user experience really didn't arrive until x570/B550.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Missing out for not getting the Steel Legend
> + PCIe x16/x16 in dual might be more useful vs. Tiachi in dual at x8/x8 where GPU would have less than full x16
> + saving about 67 dollars



Double x16 doesn't exist on consumer platforms (maybe only with some PLX wizardry from years past). Steel Legend is 4.0 x16 on the main slot, and 4.0 x4 on the lower "x16" slot. All you have to do is check the backside of the board; it's wired for x4. Also telltale sign is the Crossfire certification only - SLI requires x8/x8, which is why the Taichi has it.

The lanes still come from the CPU - it only has 24 x 4.0 lanes total, not nearly enough for dual x16. If you have 2 GPUs or other bifurcation needs, 4.0 x8 is still 3.0 x16 bandwidth - plenty enough.

I'm a big proponent for the POST code, BIOS flashback, and rear IO clear CMOS button, even if you don't OC. AMD's penchant for providing continuous feature updates through BIOS makes those three features pretty much worth their weight in gold.



Mussels said:


> it helps a little with voltage stability and keeps the temperature of the wires down
> by the math people use, i'd never have melted the 2x8 pin extensions on my 3090 - but they melted away at just 300W load.



EPS =! PCIe,

Solution to that would be to not use sketchy extensions? With thick solid pin connectors there is no reason why they'd get hot under normal use or ambient OC, but extensions don't necessarily guarantee the same thickness of wire. eg. the SF750 uses 16AWG on its 8-pin EPS and PCIe, but 18 gauge for the rest.

Extra 4-pin ATX12V or 8-pin EPS doesn't give Zen extra magic dust. There is no OC benefit. Board makers aren't extra to think ahead like that, not when the CPUs won't even touch 300W ever on air.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 1, 2022)

"PCIe x16/x16 in dual"
Doesnt exist on AM4, its always 8x/8x

tabasco: these were branded XPG cables, not cheap crap.
I'm not saying its neccesary, but if you have the option, plug em in.


The problem isn't with the chipsets or generations, it's with badly designed budget boards.
In theory as long as people keep PBO off and dont all core OC, a 5950x wont use any more power than previous gen chips

Tried to find a graph with as many zen generations as possible - notice the the 15W difference from a 2700x to a 5950x?




I get the feeling something went wrong with your loop or monoblock and caused the bang and damage, and you should have been fine with nothing more than VRM throttling at worst


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I think the worst part of the taichis was their really really slow updates, but if they've got the final 1.2.0.7 agesa i dont see much happening any time soon on that front


I remember seeing a lot of complaints about ASRock slow bios updates.  AMD's backward compatible upgrade game I don't think helped matters as vendors had to keep re-updating their older product lines which eventually bit MSI users in the butt pretty hard.   

I see the Tiachi x570 looks to have AGESA Combo V2 PI 1.2.0.6b and 1.2.07 in beta.  Normally I don't run a beta bio unless I need a fix because I never had bios flashback.  I was running a beta AGESA Combo V2 PI 1.2.0.7 on my Master SLI/ac for a month  or so already due to a problem I found ZenTimings was broken and couldn't read some values.  They ended up fixing it in BIOS\UEFI and giving me a new beta it in a couple of days turnaround.  Similar thing early on when I switched to ECC ram (again exploring the claims of ECC support or lack thereof) having problems they patched me up pretty quickly and got it working so that's kinda why I'm also sticking with ASRock for now.



Mussels said:


> Dont get budget from any brand. Get something that will last you another 10 years, because a 5950x is going to age like nehalem - it'll be viable for a long, long time.


The only reason I still have the B450m (other than perhaps of being a tech horder) is because it was originally a gift for my mother with a 2200g but win10 18 to 19 upgrade totally messed up her system.  I replaced her board with MSI Tomahawk while I tried to investigate wtf happened.  I ended up keeping the board as a light home server and stuck my 2700 in it as the final stop for that board planning to pass my 2600 down as an upgrade to her later.



Mussels said:


> "PCIe x16/x16 in dual"
> Doesnt exist on AM4, its always 8x/8x
> 
> tabasco: these were branded XPG cables, not cheap crap.
> I'm not saying its neccesary, but if you have the option, plug em in.


I see now.  I read the spec sheet wrong.

AMD Ryzen series CPUs (Vermeer, Matisse)
- 2 x PCI Express 4.0 x16 Slots (single at x16 (PCIE1); dual at x16 (PCIE1) / x4 (PCIE4))*


----------



## Mussels (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I see now.  I read the spec sheet wrong.
> 
> AMD Ryzen series CPUs (Vermeer, Matisse)
> - 2 x PCI Express 4.0 x16 Slots (single at x16 (PCIE1); dual at x16 (PCIE1) / x4 (PCIE4))*


those spec sheets are often copy pastes from the manual and lose formatting, i've seen a lot of screwed things there

Like there's meant to be a 1. 2. 3. for the different CPU generations and PCI-E lanes/generation, but they dont copy over and you end up with a gibberish mess

its 16/0/4 or 8/8/4, at 3.0 or 4.0 unless it's one of the older APU's when its 8/0/4 i think


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

Mussels said:


> I get the feeling something went wrong with your loop or monoblock and caused the bang and damage, and you should have been fine with nothing more than VRM throttling at worst


I went back to inspect the monoblock because of your comment earlier but I think it's a solid piece on the backside with no opportunity to leak from that position.  I'm not sure how they joined the VRM and CPU plates to the larger block but whenever I disassembled the block I don't recall a way to remove those portions of the block.  EK fluid has a particular annoying odor and I didn't smell any around the gaskets along the outter edges of the monoblock.   If there was a leak it would have had to come from the rad above in the 1/3 of the fin stack area above the CPU.  The rad ports are too far out of the way for a leak there to have gotten under the monoblock.  There were no signs of fluid loss from the maintenance I did about last month so while not impossible to rule out I think it's unlikely a leak occurred unless it was from the top gasket of the monoblock but again no evidence of fluid there.    

In the past few weeks I was doing all core workloads (not overclocked) for hours at a time so maybe there is a possibility incremental damage was occurring on the board without me knowing it and like a pimple I popped it with PBO.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 1, 2022)

Mussels said:


> tabasco: these were branded XPG cables, not cheap crap.
> I'm not saying its neccesary, but if you have the option, plug em in.
> 
> The problem isn't with the chipsets or generations, it's with badly designed budget boards.
> ...



Fair enough. 16AWG too, what a letdown from ADATA.

Stock 2700X isn't far from stock 5950X but 2700X also maxes out/doesn't clock further at like what, 200W on air? Even PBO takes you way past 200W on 5000. OP was all-core testing north of 200W when doodoo hit the fan - add to that the bad thermal pad contact. Besides, VRM lists have been around before Ryzen 3000 and back then it was no secret that awful boards aren't a good choice for 2700X OC.

Stock 5950X would have been [probably] alive, though not exactly ideal.



A Computer Guy said:


> I remember seeing a lot of complaints about ASRock slow bios updates.  AMD's backward compatible upgrade game I don't think helped matters as vendors had to keep re-updating their older product lines which eventually bit MSI users in the butt pretty hard.
> 
> I see the Tiachi x570 looks to have AGESA Combo V2 PI 1.2.0.6b and 1.2.07 in beta.  Normally I don't run a beta bio unless I need a fix because I never had bios flashback.  I was running a beta AGESA Combo V2 PI 1.2.0.7 on my Master SLI/ac for a month  or so already due to a problem I found ZenTimings was broken and couldn't read some values.  They ended up fixing it in BIOS\UEFI and giving me a new beta it in a couple of days turnaround.  Similar thing early on when I switched to ECC ram (again exploring the claims of ECC support or lack thereof) having problems they patched me up pretty quickly and got it working so that's kinda why I'm also sticking with ASRock for now.



Oh hell no. If there's one thing ASRock is half-decent at, it's acceptably-finished BIOS updates. You don't know the meaning of nightmare until you've been with Asus and Gigabyte. And MSI's gimped "slim" 16MB BIOS.

Newest =! best. AGESA 1200 to 1203c was a winning tradition. It's been all downhill from there with AMD breaking performance/breaking PBO in preparation for 5800X3D. Latest 1207 is finally okay again for general performance but the 145A+ EDC problem is still there I think (but not a problem unless pushing PBO and hard).

I think the L3 "fix" for Windows 11 is in 1206 or something, but if you're on Win 10 then you can just sit pretty on 1201/1202/1203. 1207 has the TPM stuttering fix iirc.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Also 90C is the MAX operating limit and its probably throttling at that point. You shouldn't push it to hard.
> Too high EDC + (on) high(est) temp can kill your CPU overtime easily. PPT(w) comes second.


I found a 3rd video (2018) on this MB buildzoid discovered the VRM temperature sensor is broken on this boards non wifi counterpart.


----------



## Zach_01 (Aug 1, 2022)

Mussels said:


> "PCIe x16/x16 in dual"
> Doesnt exist on AM4, its always 8x/8x
> 
> tabasco: these were branded XPG cables, not cheap crap.
> ...


The thing is that when you leave everything on their "luck" it could go crazy in no time...
The OP was "playing" with PBO and CurveOptimizer, but left the limits to the board.

And here is the situation you can be in, without knowing it, or be prepared for...
CB R23 MT

1. This is PBO on (my) Board limits (PPT:900W, TDC:480A, EDC:215A) with no Curve Optimizer enabled.


Wait, it gets better...

2. PBO on board limits, with CO from -5 (to best CCD) to -10 (to worst CCD)


3. PBO on board limits, with CO from -10 to -20


This can go even further on EDC if I released it beyond 215A and give more negative curve, but I wouldn't dare as this was too much already.

And this is controlled limits

4. PBO on custom limits (PPT:200W, TDC:130A, EDC:160A) , with CO from -5 to -10


5. PBO on custom limits (PPT:200W, TDC:130A, EDC:160A) , with CO from -10 to -20


6. PBO on custom limits (PPT:160W, TDC:115A, EDC:135A) , with CO from -10 to -20


*Anyone interested to know which one gave the best score in R23?*

----------------------------------------------



A Computer Guy said:


> I found a 3rd video (2018) on this MB buildzoid discovered the VRM temperature sensor is broken on this boards non wifi counterpart.


Well this can explain the burnout
I'm really sorry man... Hope the 5950X is ok


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> The thing is that when you leave everything on their "luck" it could go crazy in no time...
> The OP was "playing" with PBO and CurveOptimizer, but left the limits to the board.


Just to clarify I did not use Curve Optimizer.  My intent was to raise the limits but keep the CPU in control of cores and voltage so not to bypass it's safety features for current and temperature.  I hope I said that correctly.  My CPU never did get past 89c from what I observed but defiantly on the 2nd attempt to get some VRM readings the VRM spiked past 80c before the board blew out.


----------



## Zach_01 (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Just to clarify I did not use Curve Optimizer.  My intent was to raise the limits but keep the CPU in control of cores and voltage so not to bypass it's safety features for current and temperature.  I hope I said that correctly.  My CPU never did get past 89c from what I observed.


Ok, my bad

Though as you can see on first screenshot, even without the curve, but with PBO enabled(motherboard) things are getting too high. Around 200A EDC in my case


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Ok, my bad
> 
> Though as you can see on first screenshot, even without the curve, but with PBO enabled(motherboard) things are getting too high. Around 200A EDC in my case


Ok thank you for this, I think I am beginning to understand this better now from your example to discuss it.

In your example you started with your board limits (instead of Ryzen Master defaults) before gradually applying your curves until they approached the board limit of your EDC (that looks to be the first limit reached).  So if someone were to blindly accept the Ryzen Mater defaults 1000, 420, and 460 they could get themselves into real trouble without understanding they should really start around their actual board limits.  This was a critical step I didn't understand or was aware of when using PBO in Ryzen Master.   When you combine this with the CPU safety features only protect the CPU, not the VRM, it makes sense and I think I had a misunderstanding in this regard.  This misunderstanding prevented me from seeing that, not only should I not accept Ryzen master defaults, I shouldn't just plug in some numbers some person on reddit recommended to put in there.  When you raise the limits the CPU will ask, the board may try it, the CPU might still be OK, but the board can now be stressed past it's limits and one would hope it  finds a way to throttle or shuts down.  In the worst case scenario you damage your board and/or CPU.

So I'm also reading PBO has a hard limit of allowing 105W TDP CPUs to draw ~220W.  I think you were trying to tell me before basically my board could not do that.  So when I raise the limits in RM too high the CPU will try to continue boosting until it reaches that limit which my board cannot supply.  The attempt causes the VRM's to overheat and chaos ensues.   Since my boards thermal protection doesn't work I get the worst case scenario - game over.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm up late trying to piece together the correct understanding these past few days so I have to retire for the night.  Thank you again for your example.

Final question for the night.  Would a 7zip on Ultra all cores of 350GB worth of files be more stressful than CB R23 MT run?


----------



## Zach_01 (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Ok thank you for this, I think I am beginning to understand this better now from your example to discuss it.
> 
> In your example you started with your board limits (instead of Ryzen Master defaults) before gradually applying your curves until they approached the board limit of your EDC (that looks to be the first limit reached).  So if someone were to blindly accept the Ryzen Mater defaults 1000, 420, and 460 they could get themselves into real trouble without understanding they should really start around their actual board limits.  This was a critical step I didn't understand or was aware of when using PBO in Ryzen Master.   When you combine this with the CPU safety features only protect the CPU, not the VRM, it makes sense and I think I had a misunderstanding in this regard.  This misunderstanding prevented me from seeing that, not only should I not accept Ryzen master defaults, I shouldn't just plug in some numbers some person on reddit recommended to put in there.  When you raise the limits the CPU will ask, the board may try it, the CPU might still be OK, but the board can now be stressed past it's limits and one would hope it  finds a way to throttle or shuts down.  In the worst case scenario you damage your board and/or CPU.
> 
> ...


Yeah you got it...

I should point out that all settings was done into BIOS. I do not trust any software for this.
For board limits there is actually a "Motherboard" setting for PBO.

You know what the "funny" thing is? All that Current (A) going into CPU in the first 3 screenshots (out of 6) is just a total waste that only stresses the CPU silicon and potentially VRMs (depending the board).
Allow me to state the R23 scores of each run

---------------------------------------

I dont have the screenshots of R23, you have to take my word for it.
Also those were quick settings just to show the idea of PBO limits and CO.
It wasn't a real optimization but rather a demo of it.


1. PBO disabled (PPT:142W, TDC:95A, EDC:140A) with no Curve Optimizer enabled.
Actual avg PPT: 139W, EDC: 138A
R23 MT: 20932

2. PBO on board limits (PPT:900W, TDC:480A, EDC:215A) with no Curve Optimizer enabled
Actual avg PPT: 151W, EDC: 194A
R23 MT: 21060

3. PBO on board limits (PPT:900W, TDC:480A, EDC:215A) with CO from -5 (to best CCD) to -10 (to worst CCD)
Actual avg PPT: 158W, EDC: 203A
R23 MT: 21583

4. PBO on board limits (PPT:900W, TDC:480A, EDC:215A) with CO from  -10 (to best CCD) to -20 (to worst CCD)
Actual avg PPT: 165W, EDC: 209A
R23 MT: 22000

--------------------------------

5. PBO on custom limits (PPT:200W, TDC:130A, EDC:160A) , with CO from  -5 (to best CCD) to -10 (to worst CCD)
Actual avg PPT: 161W, EDC: 156A
R23 MT: 21875

6. PBO on custom limits (PPT:200W, TDC:130A, EDC:160A) , with CO from -10 (to best CCD) to -20 (to worst CCD)
Actual avg PPT: 164W, EDC: 158A
R23 MT: 22021

7. PBO on custom limits (PPT:160W, TDC:115A, EDC:135A) , with CO from -10 (to best CCD) to -20 (to worst CCD)
Actual avg PPT: 159W, EDC: 134A
R23 MT: 22176



A Computer Guy said:


> Final question for the night.  Would a 7zip on Ultra all cores of 350GB worth of files be more stressful than CB R23 MT run?


Never test that so I wouldn't know


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I found a 3rd video (2018) on this MB buildzoid discovered the VRM temperature sensor is broken on this boards non wifi counterpart.



Think that's all you need to know really. Not even the fact that the temp sensor is broken (as are most wildly inaccurate software sensors), but that the board literally doesn't have working OTP on the VRM.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 1, 2022)

Tiachi ordered.  Now we wait.

Found a video that suggest the extra 4 pin can be used to help supply PCIe power if your using a lot of PCIe devices.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Tiachi ordered.  Now we wait.
> 
> Found a video that suggest the extra 4 pin can be used to help supply PCIe power if your using a lot of PCIe devices.



Not the same thing. We're talking about an extra 4-pin ATX12V or 8-pin EPS beside the existing 8-pin EPS. They can only contribute power to the CPU, through the main VRM.

What you're referring to is an additional 6-pin PCIe sometimes located in the middle or bottom of the board (my Unify-X has one at the bottom edge). It's intended to provide additional power to the PCIe slots if using multiple power hungry GPUs, in case they exceed the spec 75W draw through their x16 slots. The 6-pin takes the load off the poor 24-pin when the GPUs exceed 75W slot draw.

Wendell is a whiz when it comes to servers, but he regularly makes a *lot* of incorrect assumptions when reviewing consumer hardware, and just rolls with it. You'll see what I mean when you watch his board reviews. Power doesn't just float across the PCB into whatever device it chooses.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Aug 1, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Power doesn't just float across the PCB into whatever device it chooses.



Current does flow like that actually or are you trying to defy the basic ohms laws? PCB's internal powerplanes are really low resistance and current flows towards the shortest sink path. If the consumption rises on PCIe current will naturally go there.

So please let's not be so hasty with assumptions like that. BTW I have no idea who that reviewer is or whatsoever, I selfdom use YT for PC review stuff. The additional PEG's on bottom part of the board were made because of the economy on layers as power planes needed to be split. Basically it acts like plaster, multiple return paths actually cause problems, like VRM noise, strange EMI other things.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 1, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Current does flow like that actually or are you trying to defy the basic ohms laws? PCB's internal powerplanes are really low resistance and current flows towards the shortest sink path. If the consumption rises on PCIe current will naturally go there.
> 
> So please let's not be so hasty with assumptions like that. BTW I have no idea who that reviewer is or whatsoever, I selfdom use YT for PC review stuff. The additional PEG's on bottom part of the board were made because of the economy on layers as power planes needed to be split. Basically it acts like plaster, multiple return paths actually cause problems, like VRM noise, strange EMI other things.


What they're saying is that the VRM 12V powerplane isn't actually connected _at all_ to the PCIe 12V powerplane on the motherboard. The EPS connectors feed the CPU VRM, and _only_ the CPU VRM. PCIe slots are fed through the 24-pin, as well as any ancillary 12V connectors that might be added to the board. These are entirely physically separate power planes, so power _definitely_ doesn't just float across the PCB - it needs actual connections through copper traces to move through. (And yes, that means that running several 75W PCIe devices on a board that only supplies PCIe power through the 24-pin is a tad sketchy.)


----------



## Ferrum Master (Aug 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> What they're saying is that the VRM 12V powerplane isn't actually connected _at all_ to the PCIe 12V powerplane on the motherboard. The EPS connectors feed the CPU VRM, and _only_ the CPU VRM. PCIe slots are fed through the 24-pin, as well as any ancillary 12V connectors that might be added to the board. These are entirely physically separate power planes, so power _definitely_ doesn't just float across the PCB - it needs actual connections through copper traces to move through. (And yes, that means that running several 75W PCIe devices on a board that only supplies PCIe power through the 24-pin is a tad sketchy.)



ah yes yes, but current doesn't only mean the hot wire, but ground too.

The problem occurs exactly because of ATX24PIN power and multi rail PSU's have different rails for PCIe devices and you basically connect them together in unwanted manner while using the additional PEG connector supplying more current to PCIe slots. The problem isn't really mitigated using single rail PSU as you alter return paths via the ground plane and that's same for any of those, this causes sometimes some fishy problems I described as the device combination each PC user does are wildly different.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> ah yes yes, but current doesn't only mean the hot wire, but ground too.
> 
> The problem occurs exactly because of ATX24PIN power and multi rail PSU's have different rails for PCIe devices and you basically connect them together in unwanted manner while using the additional PEG connector supplying more current to PCIe slots. The problem isn't really mitigated using single rail PSU as you alter return paths via the ground plane and that's same for any of those, this causes sometimes some fishy problems I described as the device combination each PC user does are wildly different.


No, the problem here is that you took a single quote out of context, misunderstood it, and responded to it as if it was saying something other than what it was saying, and are now failing to recognize that fact.

Also, who uses (or makes) multi-rail PSUs these days? And won't current take the shortest, lowest resistance path, whereever that may be? And in a single rail PSU, won't all those paths, no matter through which cables, return to the same ground rail in the PSU? Bridging rails in a multi-rail PSU is obviously to be avoided, but I can't imagine there's much overlap between owners of multi-rail PSUs and owners of motherboards with ancillary PCIe power connectors, seeing how one is hardly made any longer, and the other is rare and mostly reserved for HEDT/workstation boards.

As for this:


Ferrum Master said:


> The additional PEG's on bottom part of the board were made because of the economy on layers as power planes needed to be split.


That is simply not true. The additional PEG ports were added because without them, the board wouldn't be able to deliver 75W of power to each PCIe slot without risking burning out the 24-pin connector or cable, or worse, the board. There are only two 12V lines on a 24-pin, after all, and with the EPS12V rail not connected to the rest of the board, there's no safe way of providing significantly more than 75W to the PCIe slots without adding further power connectors.

This can absolutely lead to noise and weird resonances, but that's why you have electrical engineers working at both PSU and motherboard manufacturers that can work to minimize this.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 3, 2022)

Just sharing some interesting links while I'm waiting for the x570 and parts to arrive.

Thermal Pad Mod









Power Consumption









Custom Heatsink








						PC modder removes the need for X570's chipset fan with a custom heatsink - This is PC modding!
					

A fanless ROG Strix X570-E? Yes, please!




					www.overclock3d.net
				




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmods/comments/dhva5z

Chipset Waterblock









Fan Noise


----------



## Mussels (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Tiachi ordered.  Now we wait.
> 
> Found a video that suggest the extra 4 pin can be used to help supply PCIe power if your using a lot of PCIe devices.


That makes sense

You know, I wonder if this ties into the issues some people had with USB device disconnects due to the PCI-E bus resetting (AGESA updates reduced it, but it's still semi common - i've only ever caused it with a damaged PCI-E riser cable and a crappy asmedia USB-C port)
High power draw PCI-E/USB devices, combined with someone skipping an extra power connector...
Even if they're seperated, It's given me something to think about next time someone brings that issue up (are they using all the power connectors, extensions, etc. I have a 4 ->8+4 dubious splitter here in the spare parts bin)


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 3, 2022)

Mussels said:


> That makes sense
> 
> You know, I wonder if this ties into the issues some people had with USB device disconnects due to the PCI-E bus resetting (AGESA updates reduced it, but it's still semi common - i've only ever caused it with a damaged PCI-E riser cable and a crappy asmedia USB-C port)
> High power draw PCI-E/USB devices, combined with someone skipping an extra power connector...
> Even if they're seperated, It's given me something to think about next time someone brings that issue up (are they using all the power connectors, extensions, etc. I have a 4 ->8+4 dubious splitter here in the spare parts bin)


There seems to be some debate here about this.  I wonder if it can be easily settled by some testing using a multi-meter.


----------



## Chomiq (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Tiachi ordered.  Now we wait.
> 
> Found a video that suggest the extra 4 pin can be used to help supply PCIe power if your using a lot of PCIe devices.


If it's there, plug it in.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 3, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> If it's there, plug it in.


LOL,  Researching earlier I think I found you had made this comment on another thread.

Curious about this I checked the Taichi x570 manual 




although I've seen in other manuals they say it's optional


----------



## Chomiq (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> LOL,  Researching earlier I think I found you had made this comment on another thread.
> 
> Curious about this I checked the Taichi x570 manual
> View attachment 256848
> although I've seen in other manuals they say it's optional


What's better:
- having it plugged in from the start
- spend x hours/days on troubleshooting only to find out all what was needed was to plug it in
?


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> LOL,  Researching earlier I think I found you had made this comment on another thread.
> 
> Curious about this I checked the Taichi x570 manual
> View attachment 256848
> although I've seen in other manuals they say it's optional


In  my Master SLI/ac manual it's even more ambiguous


----------



## Valantar (Aug 3, 2022)

Some motherboards require these to be connected, and those will not boot without them (or will throw an error). Others do not, and will thus work fine as long as the 8+pin provides enough power - which it does for any Ryzen CPU, no matter the settings or overclock, as an EPS cable can provide 4*7A at 12V or 336W. Even if its a crap tier PSU with weak wiring and connectors it should do 5A per pin, which is still 240W - plenty for any Ryzen, even including VRM conversion losses.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 3, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> What's better:
> - having it plugged in from the start
> - spend x hours/days on troubleshooting only to find out all what was needed was to plug it in
> ?


Not debating your sound logic it's just fascinating how it seems in the AM4 ecosystem there is so much confusion around this connector.
A vast majority of posts I come across pretty much state you don't need it "it's for extreme overclocking",  "your system will run fine without it" etc...
Would it have been so hard for manufacturers to have been more specific in their manuals?  In some cases they actually do say at least it's "optional".

Being one not to settle for ambiguity, coming across that L1 video peeked my curiosity in what I thought was a settled topic, as it's the first counter statement I've seen that might make sense to what everyone else was saying regarding the 4 pin connector.  So it either is or is not involved in supplying additional PCIe power or perhaps some board manufactures find cleaver ways to use this connector that isn't just used for CPU power.  I'm kind of curious to find any confirming evidence either way besides just what people say.



Mussels said:


> That makes sense
> 
> You know, I wonder if this ties into the issues some people had with USB device disconnects due to the PCI-E bus resetting (AGESA updates reduced it, but it's still semi common - i've only ever caused it with a damaged PCI-E riser cable and a crappy asmedia USB-C port)
> High power draw PCI-E/USB devices, combined with someone skipping an extra power connector...
> Even if they're seperated, It's given me something to think about next time someone brings that issue up (are they using all the power connectors, extensions, etc. I have a 4 ->8+4 dubious splitter here in the spare parts bin)


I can't say I've had a lot of USB problems but I did have USB problems on my motherboard when putting some good stress on it (multiple transfers to hard drives using USB power and such) going on at the same time.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> So it either is or is not involved in supplying additional PCIe power or perhaps some board manufactures find cleaver ways to use this connector that isn't just used for CPU power. I'm kind of curious to find any confirming evidence either way besides just what people say.


 It is of course entirely possible for the cpu VRM and the PCIe 12V to be on the same power plane, however AFAIK this isn't done. I wouldn't be surprised if the ATX spec mandated cpu power on its own plane, as avoiding noise on that power plane is crucial for system stability.

So: it is theoretically possible that an additional 4-pin supplies additional PCIe power, but in all cases I know of it is only there to supply additional CPU power for overclocking, and I haven't heard of a single example of it doing more. Boards with additional PCIe power tend to use either 4-pin Molex or 6-pin PCIe plugs for this.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Not debating your sound logic it's just fascinating how it seems in the AM4 ecosystem there is so much confusion around this connector.
> A vast majority of posts I come across pretty much state you don't need it "it's for extreme overclocking",  "your system will run fine without it" etc...
> Would it have been so hard for manufacturers to have been more specific in their manuals?  In some cases they actually do say at least it's "optional".
> 
> ...



If for some reason you're worried about board being picky/not trusting your EPS cables, it's real easy just to plug in the extra 4-pin. You really don't lose anything - just don't expect to gain anything either. I'm just a bit biased against stuff that's unnecessary, as I'm sure you understand with your NR200 the massive headache from just adding an extra EPS in an SFF case.

But speculating that it provides power to GPUs or solves the USB bug is just a whole new level of ridiculous. From the cable to the connector to the board, not what any of them are designed for. I suppose you could ask like luumi or bz to probe with their multimeter but I doubt anyone would waste their time proving that the CPU power plane stays in the CPU power plane. This is exactly like hoping an ECU swap in your car will make Android Auto lag less - they're entirely different, separate entities.

And how would anyone even prove anything with the multimeter? Every VRM has losses - input at EPS =! output to the socket. If there are significant enough losses from EPS to show up measurably on some other rail/power plane, the board has a big problem on its hands...

...and as to the potential voltage stabilization issue, if your board can't stabilize Vcore on a single EPS, then LLC is defective (personally seen on my Aorus). Second EPS connector is way down the list of troubleshooting priorities there.

Especially on lower layer count boards, you can literally see the footprint of the CPU power plane on the front and back of the VRM, from the EPS connector(s) leading to the socket. It's not huge and doesn't really cover too much of the board.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 3, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> If for some reason you're worried about board being picky/not trusting your EPS cables, it's real easy just to plug in the extra 4-pin.


I don't think I have an extra 4 pin anyway but I haven' been really worried about it since 2018 since I'm not really doing any kind of extreme overclocking, just extreme brick making recently.


tabascosauz said:


> You really don't lose anything - just don't expect to gain anything either. I'm just a bit biased against stuff that's unnecessary,


I agree.  If they used the money from putting on a useless extra connector toward some working VRM protection instead I might still have a board today.  But then again I did end up buying into some fancy RGB so that might make me a hypocrite in that regard.


tabascosauz said:


> as I'm sure you understand with your NR200 the massive headache from just adding an extra EPS in an SFF case.


I can relate although NR200 does seem kind of roomy compared to other cases I've seen online.


tabascosauz said:


> But speculating that it provides power to GPUs or solves the USB bug is just a whole new level of ridiculous.


Not understanding enough about how MB circuitry is designed I can't say either way - USB is 5v so it's doesn't really make sense to me for a 12v connector to be involved in that unless there is onboard circuitry for that.  I could be wrong but I thought the USB power came from the 5v rail(s) of the PSU to the main MB connector.


tabascosauz said:


> From the cable to the connector to the board, not what any of them are designed for. I suppose you could ask like luumi or bz to probe with their multimeter but I doubt anyone would waste their time proving that the CPU power plane stays in the CPU power plane. This is exactly like hoping an ECU swap in your car will make Android Auto lag less - they're entirely different, separate entities.
> 
> And how would anyone even prove anything with the multimeter?


It was an idea, I'm not an electrical engineer!  I had an inner buildzoid voice in my mind at the time of writing imagining a conversation that starts something like "Ok apparently nobody listens to me so I'm going to prove to you idiots this 4 pin connector is complete and utter garbage...well not complete garbage...but yes totally unnecessary etc...".


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 3, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I'm not really doing any kind of extreme overclocking, just extreme brick making recently.
> 
> I had an inner buildzoid voice in my mind at the time of writing imagining a conversation that starts something like "Ok apparently nobody listens to me so I'm going to prove to you idiots this 4 pin connector is complete and utter garbage...well not complete garbage...but yes totally unnecessary etc...".





Would be a great thing to have a dedicated video on this. I have nothing to link every time the extra 8-pin topic comes up, because he only talks about it in passing, and linking Youtube timestamps doesn't always work in embed.

Not a hypocrite! Taichi is pretty anti-RGB. No OC Formula for us so Taichi is top of the line for ASRock - I have a usual laundry list of problems with ASRock but I'd feel confident trusting in that board in particular.

Don't be alarmed but because the X570 is an early gen board it uses SiC634 Vishays and ISL69147 (Z390/X570 era controller) that don't have a OTP flag I think  ASRock switched to SiC654 and RAA229004 for the B550 generation both of which have a wider safety set. But 12 x 50A is a common and very strong setup, won't break a sweat. The Strix-A and Strix-F boards are in the exact same boat with12 x SiC639, all tough boards. I think your X470 K4 must have been an anomaly.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 4, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Would be a great thing to have a dedicated video on this. I have nothing to link every time the extra 8-pin topic comes up, because he only talks about it in passing, and linking Youtube timestamps doesn't always work in embed.
> 
> Not a hypocrite! Taichi is pretty anti-RGB. No OC Formula for us so Taichi is top of the line for ASRock - I have a usual laundry list of problems with ASRock but I'd feel confident trusting in that board in particular.
> 
> Don't be alarmed but because the X570 is an early gen board it uses SiC634 Vishays and ISL69147 (Z390/X570 era controller) that don't have a OTP flag I think  ASRock switched to SiC654 and RAA229004 for the B550 generation both of which have a wider safety set. But 12 x 50A is a common and very strong setup, won't break a sweat. The Strix-A and Strix-F boards are in the exact same boat with12 x SiC639, all tough boards. I think your X470 K4 must have been an anomaly.


The Taichi and CPU block arrived.  Looks like I got the updated model with the fixed internal USBC header.  Rev 1.06.

For a quick test I popped in my NVMe and it booted my old OS just fine after some driver changes although I think it will probably deactivate my Windows10 when it comes back online.

For the moment I'm going t setup the Taichi with my 3950x until after I get a chance to test the 5950x.  It won't be till sometime next week before I know if the 5950x is really damaged.  If it's good then swapping it out will be fast and easy with the cpu block compared to the monoblock.

I'll post some pictures tonight.

Test Boot.  Only 2 ram sticks, using my spare graphics card rx5500, and spare cooler H100i Pro. (my original cooler before my custom loop), and used some 5yr old artic silver 5 so I can save the good stuff for the final configuration.  Borrowed my 10yr old's kano keyboard.





Also I popped in my old NVMe drive and hooked up the 80mm fan because the zero rpm mode on the card let's it get hot.




A quick run of CB20, I can see I am getting a slightly better score than when my ram was OC to DDR4-3200.  I didn't bother OC ram for this test.





Temps look ok after the run





Here you can see the fixed USB-C header on my revised board





The mighty 40mm noctua cooling GPU stuck in zero fan mode





New CPU water block





Hope everyone enjoys the pictures.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 5, 2022)

Had to wash my rad to get the burnt plastic/pcb smell out.





*Ugh oh!  I didn't expect that!   What to do?*





RAD cleaned and air blown dry.  Laterally smells like a baby considering I washed it with Aveeno Baby Wash.  ( yes I closed the ports first - duh! )


----------



## freeagent (Aug 5, 2022)

I like the smell of Aveeno 

Looks nice and new again


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 5, 2022)

Time to get serious about cable management








who needs those fancy click together fans anyway










Whoever designed the distroplate wasn't thinking about the case design.  This squished cable still bothers me to this day.





So that was what the bigger side of the key was for...





pressure testing







freeagent said:


> I like the smell of Aveeno
> 
> Looks nice and new again



Works great.  I was doubting if it would be enough but it gets the job done with 3950x/5950x and a rx5700.
I guess they don't make these ones anymore.  Now they have ones with these white caps.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 6, 2022)

Tonight's activity .. some ram overclocking with x570 Tiachi on a new ram kit before I do my reassembly back into the 011D with the new CPU water block.  If this works nicely I have future expansion to 128GB.









Before I realized there was the Ryzen overclocking guide I made and used a spreadsheet like this.   The idea was to try and first and scale the frequency up close to the timings in ns then trim the timings down.   This kit really didn't like to try anything DDR4-3400 and over so I tried to go the other way around and simply improve the timings to something that resembles a decent DDR4-3200.


----------



## Pictus (Aug 6, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Tonight's activity .. some ram overclocking with x570 Tiachi on a new ram kit before I do my reassembly back into the 011D with the new CPU water block.



I had defective RAM that MenTest86 was not able to find errors, but more demanding RAM tests was able to.
Y-cruncher is one of the most demanding tests around http://www.numberworld.org/y-cruncher/
The *#14* is for RAM, Press 1 + ENTER, 8 + ENTER, 14 + ENTER, 0 + ENTER





Some people may like, AMD Overclocking - Curve Optimizer Explained








To avoid problems with the Curve Optimizer, better set the Processor
power management to 15% or more, but not zero.





As we are talking about Power Options, I like this tweak too.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 6, 2022)

Pictus said:


> I had defective RAM that MenTest86 was not able to find errors, but more demanding RAM tests was able to.
> Y-cruncher is one of the most demanding tests around http://www.numberworld.org/y-cruncher/
> The *#14* is for RAM, Press 1 + ENTER, 8 + ENTER, 14 + ENTER, 0 + ENTER
> 
> ...


Setting the minimum processor state higher to "avoid problems" is ha poor, hacky workaround. Do it the proper way, test through usage, identify failing cores through Event Viewer if the system crashes, reduce the CO offset for that core until crashes cease. The main challenge with CO is instability at idle due to the curve offset being too aggressive at very low clock levels, which this minimum state offset works around, but that isn't actually stable, you're just forcing your CPU to waste energy to avoid crashes. Identifying stable individual core offsets will take a few days, but it's a really simple process overall.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 6, 2022)

Pictus said:


> I had defective RAM that MenTest86 was not able to find errors,


I use MemTest86 as just the 1st step in testing.  If any errors happen here it's easy and quick enough to adjust and retry a single pass before more extensive testing.


( updates from the original thread below since the motherbaord blowout and swap in x570 Tiachi ) 

The 5950x posts on the x570!  Running initial memtest to see if memory controller is ok. - Memtest ok

Did a few quick all core tests using 7zip.  All cores seem to be hitting the same frequencies (4.5GHz) as before the motherboard burnout.

CPUz is benching just shy was what it was doing before but that might be due to using different RAM this time around. (I haven't retuned it for 5950x)

More testing to be done later today.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 8, 2022)

Updates...

Testing is going well.    About 1/5th in the way of a 350GB 7zip test 2nd round of testing with 7zip.  The first round was getting WHEA correctable memory errors so I know the ECC is working with this new 3200 ram kit I have.  I had to back off the ram tighter timings OC for now and retune it later.  Unfortunately I can't seem to obtain any stable higher frequency with this Nemix Ram.

CPU holding steady at 67c, vrm 47c, ram at 46c (1.2v), chipset 51c,  room temp is about 32c.  Core utilization is about 4.575MHz on all cores. 

Used the thermal grizzly paste this time around.  seems to be a bit better.
The Quantum Velocity block is doing much better than the prior monoblock with FULL coverages on the IHS now and temps are bit lower. 
The VRM heatsinks are doing their job well.
No smells of burning plastic or pcb.
Had the opportunity to redo cable management.
Saved 40 dollars by not getting the RGB CPU block, reused the RGB from the old monoblock instead.
Issues

The ASRock rgb controller won't seem to recognize my changes to settings and is stuck on red or rainbow puke depending on the setting.  This may be because of the prior polychrome installation with my previous board.  Even though I uninstalled and reinstalled it I suspect my prior boards options are stuck in there somewhere.  Still contemplating a full OS reinstall.
Had a tragic USB plug malfunction with the mainboard that I was thankfully able fix and recover without RMA.  (will post pictures, ! Beware of USB connectors with holes on the sides ! )
Need to get 1 d-rgb extension cable for the distroplate because the connector is now too far away.

Will post more pictures of reassembly perhaps later this evening if anyone is interested.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Aug 10, 2022)

Some reassembly pictures

backplate for Velocity waterblock





Mounts




Fittings





Test fittings.  Needed to change the GPU input fitting to a 45 degree otherwise the existing tubes were good to reuse.





Pressure testing the CPU block





Bottom fan cable management for excess cable



Whole system pressure test




System at a glance.  I tried using a spare EK-LED strip from my monoblock however it only showed green LED's no matter what settings were used so I ended up pulling out the strip.  Oh well.  Perhaps later I'll pull the LED strip from the monoblock and reuse it here in the CPU block.
I had a bit of trouble with the polychrome software not changing the colors so I updated the firmware to fix the issue.





Cinebench test run.  53c not bad.  better then what I did before.






Close up of the better cable management paid off.









Custom foam cutout to fill the empty gap and help airflow pressurize in the 011D. 





The USB-C port just barely fit.  Thanks ASRock for having fixed the position of the port.





Despite hours of cable management and bundling slack it still looks like a mess.  Under the Commander Pro zip tied to the cable management bar is a corsair 2 bay SSD mount.









The darn USB keyboard adaptor got stuck in the USB port.  Can you tell which port it was?





I'll show you here...  The USB dongle had two cutouts (one on each side)  the inside tabs of the usb port caught on them  preventing the plug from coming out.  I ended up tearing out the dongle insert leaving the plug casing stuck inside.  Then I had to crush the dongle casing to pull it out and the tabs from the port ended up folding out in the process.  (forgot to take a picture of that)  Using a pair of small curved pliers I ended up folding the USB port tabs back in again but you can see the surface bend.   I was lucky not to break the port completely.









Also used a sharpie on the edges of the ram PCB to black them out. (learned that from Jay's 2 cents)


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## A Computer Guy (Aug 29, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Yeah you got it...
> 
> I should point out that all settings was done into BIOS. I do not trust any software for this.
> For board limits there is actually a "Motherboard" setting for PBO.
> ...



So I must be a glutton for punishment and decided to try PBO again. (without curve optimizer for now)

PBO disabled (PPT:142W, TDC:95A, EDC:140A) with no Curve Optimizer enabled.
Actual avg PPT: 124W, TDC: 93A, EDC: 136A
R23 MT: 25206

Using the UEFI/BIOS I got the board limits and out of extreme paranoia set the temp limit to 75c.
Then a ran with the board limits and did some tests to see where PPT, TDC, and EDC really landed and keeping a close eye on VRM and CPU temps.

PBO on board limits are (PPT:1000, TDC:540A, EDC:540A, and 75c limit)
Actual avg PPT: 120W, TDC: 85A, EDC: 184A
R23 MT:  I didn't capture my score but it was worse

Pretty much every benchmark was worse and temps were nothing extraordinary.

The I tried to dial everything back to something that seemed to be sane, setting the default for PPT, giving some slack to TDC from the default, and arbitrarily lowering EDC from the default.

PBO on dialed in limits (PPT:*142W*, TDC:*115A*, EDC:*120A*, and 75c limit)
Actual avg PPT: 142W, TDC: 108A, EDC: 120A
R23 MT: 26458

When I did this I discovered PPT is now hitting it's limit and CB score increased a bit.
Knowing enough to be dangerous I upped my PPT to 160.

PBO on dialed in limits (PPT:*160W*, TDC:115A, EDC:120A, and 75c limit)
Actual avg PPT: 152W, TDC: 115, EDC: 120A
R23 MT: 27100 

So some knowledge I have now
- So EDC past 145A kills boost clocks so that is a no go.
- For all core loads: Only higher effective clocks = higher performance, and this can be achieved at lowest possible temp with a reasonable EDC and most likely lower than the stock 140A(EDC).

How might you recommend I proceed to balance out PPT and EDC for the best outcome?
I suspect I need to raise these values one at a time to find the right temperature / performance balance correct?

Below are screenshots of my last run just to provide some more info to my progress so far


----------



## Zach_01 (Aug 29, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> So I must be a glutton for punishment and decided to try PBO again. (without curve optimizer for now)
> 
> PBO disabled (PPT:142W, TDC:95A, EDC:140A) with no Curve Optimizer enabled.
> Actual avg PPT: 124W, TDC: 93A, EDC: 136A
> ...


Thats nice!

Do you care mostly for MT or ST performance?

I would throw in some negative CO and see if I can improve anything with those limits.
Remember that too much negative curve can render the system unstable (*first on idle/low load). Also not all cores can take the same amount of undervolt.

Your guide is the "perf #x/x" order (first number *x*/x):




(**)Low number can take the lowest negative and higher number the highest negative.

In BIOS (in CO) there are 30 steps (positive or negative).
Each step (negative) reduces voltage by around 3~5mV (0.03~0.05V)
(*) ~5mV at low end curve = when idling or on very low loads (and speeds) and progressively reduces ~3mV on high end of curve = on highest loads (and speeds)

No Ryzen CPU can supply individual voltage to each core. The voltage feed to cores is always 1 value and same for all cores (look at "CPU Core Voltage SVI2 TFN")
So...
Practically, with negative CO you are setting different (higher) speeds on each core on the same voltage on top of the already different speeds AMD evaluated each core (perf #x/).

(**)As you will see on your screenshot the "Core 6 (perf #1/1)" has the highest speed already and "Core 14 (perf #15/16)" the lowest speed

Second perf number #x/*x *is the order windows scheduler chooses to keep loads mostly. Even on ST or on 2~3 threaded loads all the way up to full MT, the loads are keep moving around constantly but mostly stay on that second order.
This can be confirmed by many factors other than pure (discreet) clocks.
By effective clocks (=hence the C0/1/6 individual core state residency), by individual core temps, individual core loads/utilizations, individual core powers... etc.

I would start with CO -3 steps for the 1st core(s) (core 6 and 2) up to -15 steps for the 16th (core 14)

----------------------------------------

EDIT:
Last but not least...
Enable "CPU Snapshot Polling" in HWiNFO main settings.


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## A Computer Guy (Aug 30, 2022)

Just some more experimenting with PBO before I dive into curve optimizer.
Interestingly in test config #4 the EDC limit was ignored.
My temps were all over the place because of my AC was on and off during the testing


----------



## Ferrum Master (Aug 30, 2022)

As water cooling veteran... such burst testing doesn't reflect actual usage at all. Those things work fine for air coolers as those are fast at thermal transfer.

Basically what's your aim? My aim is productivity batch jobs in Lightroom, schematic real time simulations and gaming. Basically all of those things will warm up your loop significantly from ambient to some usually 30-42C, depending how long you do things, if you game all night long you warm up the loop and are close to equilibrium and your fans should go rampage.

Basically all your test should be tied to loop liquid temperature worst scenario as you can kill boost on warmer temps giving too much power budged for the CPU, it would look fine in benchmarks but later in actual gaming all temps rising gradually the boost and effective clock will be limited and you do not want it.


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## A Computer Guy (Aug 30, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> As water cooling veteran... such burst testing doesn't reflect actual usage at all. Those things work fine for air coolers as those are fast at thermal transfer.


I must have been going  last night.  Yea your right,  I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.  



Ferrum Master said:


> Basically what's your aim? My aim is productivity batch jobs in Lightroom, schematic real time simulations and gaming. Basically all of those things will warm up your loop significantly from ambient to some usually 30-42C, depending how long you do things, if you game all night long you warm up the loop and are close to equilibrium and your fans should go rampage.


My goal is exploration and number chasing at the moment.  A 10 minute CB23 run changes my loop temps +2.7 degrees with about 5 minutes to drop back to starting temps with my fans around 1300 rpm.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Aug 31, 2022)

Ah, number chasing is OK. But I do it only when chasing BSOD and doing curve UV with PBO. At least then the time ain't wasted totally. You should better start to invest time in that. 

For 10minute run having +2.7C rise is a bit fast in my books. But my loop has more capacity, I am running two 360ties + 240 at the bottom, I couldn't fit my 280 at the bottom as O11D has a funny design flaw with that, that none of the so called self proclaimed expert reviewers noticed. Also keep in mind that EK block you have leaves much to be desired, I have a similar design implemented in my Monoblock.


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## A Computer Guy (Aug 31, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Ah, number chasing is OK. But I do it only when chasing BSOD and doing curve UV with PBO. At least then the time ain't wasted totally. You should better start to invest time in that.


Well rather than watching TV this is my entertainment for this month.


Ferrum Master said:


> For 10minute run having +2.7C rise is a bit fast in my books. But my loop has more capacity, I am running two 360ties + 240 at the bottom,


I take it that I did a pretty good job with my thermal paste then, thermal grizzly kryonaut performance confirmed?       Isn't the blocks performance kind of moot since my loop under full load currently can only dissipate heat at half the rate it absorbs for this rather short burst of activity?  You have a bit over twice the heat dissipation potential of my setup so I'd think your absorption/dissipation ratio should be much closer to 1:1 than mine.


Ferrum Master said:


> I couldn't fit my 280 at the bottom as O11D has a funny design flaw with that, that none of the so called self proclaimed expert reviewers noticed.


I'm curious to what is your rad configuration?  Having the front EK distro plate like I have unfortunately blocks the idea of the side mounted rad (or fans) in the front and a rad on the bottom becomes a bit problematic with clearance and access to connectors of a full ATX motherboard (d-rgb cable connector is too tall) and whether or not you have access to the bottom most PCIe slot.  I was considering if I could fit another 360 in the side mount rear but the clearance would be really tight with the rear panel when regular 120mm thickness fans are installed.  I remember from reading reviews EK CoolStream 360 SE won't fit back there because of front panel wiring issues (rad is too wide) so I would need some other kind of slim RAD that isn't as wide and also thin enough to fit back there.  It seems to me a 3 rad config isn't really ideal/optimal/practical concept for the original 011D and I've pretty much given up on the idea of adding more rads in the case because of these constraints.  My only practical option is to go external with more rads for improved heat dissipation.


Ferrum Master said:


> Also keep in mind that EK block you have leaves much to be desired, I have a similar design implemented in my Monoblock.


I'm not quite sure what you mean?  The performance of the block isn't really earth shattering but doesn't really seem bad either.








						EK-Quantum Magnitude CPU Water Block Review
					

EK Water Blocks finally launches the EK-Quantum Magnitude, a halo CPU block with customization cues from the EK-Supremacy EVO from yesteryear that kicks things up a notch. With a clear focus on design, material choice, performance, and customization, it aims to offer a lasting CPU cooling...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 1, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> Well rather than watching TV this is my entertainment for this month.



I have a overclocked GPU in the loop spitting 300W of energy in the loop also. Top internal side rads are 360ties and bottom 240. If I put the 280 all my bottom motherboard I/O for USB switches etc are blocked and headers have no space to be attached. It is a serious flaw in the case design.

I had an opportunity to compare blocks when building loop for a mate using my older block and thus I made a conclusion on my own, EK sucks about for ~5C. I have an older pic of the build. There are things to improve. I can attach another 360 sandwiched in the internal side wall. Well maybe if those new gen 600W GPU's it would become a need.


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## A Computer Guy (Sep 1, 2022)

Didn't have time yet to run more PBO tests but got these puppies to help complete the aesthetic of my build since my ECC ram is naked without heat spreader.
It was a bit of a PITA to install but it cools just fine with a bit of air flow.  (I'm *NOT *getting the water block for this.) 
Probably going to post some pictures tonight of the assembly and workaround of the installation issues. The design is somewhat terrible.  Not EK's finest product.
Currently waiting for replacement PrimoFlex tubes to try and reconfigure loop to improve flow and reduce pump noise.
I finally got my ARGB extension cables so I can hook my distroplate rgb back up again since the motherboard swap.  When I light it up the ram should reflect ARGB greatness.






Heat spreader installation.

Before.  Micron OTE75-D9ZFV,  I think these are Micron E-die (https://www.micron.com/products/dram/ddr4-sdram/part-catalog/mt40a2g8jc-062e)





Ohhh, shiny





The pads only came for 8 chips per side so I had to improvise





Sizing up the ram





Need a common point of alignment so I can get both sticks symmetrical





After assembly there was a noticeable size difference at the end of the module.  The mounting point to the end was off by about a 1mm.
( sorry I don't have a picture of that, just imagine picking up a ham sandwich and squeezing one end of the bread )

Got to do some measurements.  First time using this caliper, just opened it from the package.  Was sitting in my tool drawer for about 7 months unused until now.

First the joined edges on both sides.  Looks pretty good.
(yes I blurred out my fingerprint in the photo)






Now the other side







Not liking this much.  Going to try to reduce the tilt on the chips to ensure a more level compression.

These are the smallest washers I have on hand.  I cut them to fit as spacers.












Reassembled, lets take some more measurements.  Looks like from certain angles I can see the machining lines.





Ok ends looking a bit more consistent.  The middle is a little more compressed.









back to the joined edges







So the mount is still tilted a bit but a significant improvement.  I need to find a way to make up 0.22 mm.
Ideally I'd like to get rid of the spacers and perhaps find some thinner thermal pads but that's a project for another day.

One module reinstalled.  On to testing and comparison.





Heat absorption by the heat spreaders confirmed but testing with OCCT confirmed I'm going to need some direct airflow.  
Noctua 40mm fan to the rescue.

Not sure where the DIMM temp sensors are but DIMM 1 always runs a little hotter about 1 degree.
Since DIMM 2 is on the out edge it does get some reflective airflow from the side fans

I lost my OCCT screen shots comparing DIMM 1 (with heatspreader) & 2 (bare) thermal results so I will have to redo my testing some day.






Cold Start Test and some TPU web browsing




After 1 hr OCCT ram test.   Ram stayed under 45 degrees. (previous peak temp was 51)


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 2, 2022)

Another sanity call.

Well... a heatsink without ribs... an additional surface area... ain't a heatsink, it is more a heat spreader.

Basically those EK are just for the looks, nothing else. EK has many things to improve on.


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## Valantar (Sep 2, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Another sanity call.
> 
> Well... a heatsink without ribs... an additional surface area... ain't a heatsink, it is more a heat spreader.
> 
> Basically those EK are just for the looks, nothing else. EK has many things to improve on.


There isn't much room for fins or ribs on a RAM heatspreader though - the best you can realistically do is some more thermal mass and a larger area to spread the heat across. Those heatsinks with fins at the top are pretty much useless, as thermal conductivity into those fins will be next to nothing, rendering their marginal extra surface area useless. And, tbh, a simple heatspreader is all RAM needs - if it needs anything at all. Sure, some RAM (like Samsung B-die DDR4) needs keeping somewhat cool, but the heat output just isn't enough to warrant any serious cooling.


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> There isn't much room for fins or ribs on a RAM heatspreader though - the best you can realistically do is some more thermal mass and a larger area to spread the heat across. Those heatsinks with fins at the top are pretty much useless, as thermal conductivity into those fins will be next to nothing, rendering their marginal extra surface area useless. And, tbh, a simple heatspreader is all RAM needs - if it needs anything at all. Sure, some RAM (like Samsung B-die DDR4) needs keeping somewhat cool, but the heat output just isn't enough to warrant any serious cooling.



You can do better by simply putting holes or making it with bumps, no need for Dominator approach. Other than that, this is just a fancy sock, or maybe because of the price a piece of exclusive lingerie lol.


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## Calenhad (Sep 2, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Well... a heatsink without ribs... an additional surface area... ain't a heatsink, it is more a heat spreader.



Any piece of metal you sink heat into is by definition a heatsink (it is literally in the name). It can be ribbed for your pleasure, and more surface area.


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## A Computer Guy (Sep 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> There isn't much room for fins or ribs on a RAM heatspreader though - the best you can realistically do is some more thermal mass and a larger area to spread the heat across.


The EK spreader has a fairly large mass and the total surface area to dissipate heat ends up tripling (sorry didn't calc the measurements exactly) on on the surface of the modules alone.  I don't have a picture if it but also there is quite a bit of room inside the spreader as well.   Forcing air through that cavity again increases the surface area again maybe by another 3/5ths and when shoving airflow through both sides of the spreader there is enough surface area where I can reach parity with the motherboard temp during the entirety of the OCCT 1hr test.

Caveats of the EK heat spreader

Cost - the cost is totally unrealistic of course.
Assembly is problematic.  Alignment of the modules takes some work.  Fitment can be a problem.  My double sided modules were a bit too thick and I had to compensate by adding the spacers to the clamping area to get a more level fit.  The 0.5mm pads were too thick for my application and needed maybe 0.2mm to 0.25mm on each side instead.
The heat spreader is not perfectly flat so a pad is required to make up the difference.
The heat spreader is not symmetrical.  So one side gets slightly better spread than the other.
Without airflow the spread makes temps worse
There is no surface that isn't a fingerprint magnet



Valantar said:


> Those heatsinks with fins at the top are pretty much useless, as thermal conductivity into those fins will be next to nothing, rendering their marginal extra surface area useless. And, tbh, a simple heatspreader is all RAM needs - if it needs anything at all. Sure, some RAM (like Samsung B-die DDR4) needs keeping somewhat cool, but the heat output just isn't enough to warrant any serious cooling.


Like with my EK NVMe heatsink it ended up with higher temps without airflow but with airflow it ended up with cooler temps.  The same thing happened here with these ram heat spreaders.  In my case I ended up shaving off -5c from my previous max temp running OCCT with just some light airflow from my 40mm fan.

( additional update 9/2 )

So I got my new ARGB extension cables so I can rehook up the distroplate RGB.  I took a whopping 2hrs because it turns out he cable I tried to use was bad and I didn't know it until after I got all my zip ties in place to hold the connectors together.  After some troubleshooting and finally swapping out the bad cable (and trying for like 15 minutes to get the darn thing plugged into the mainboard again) it finally worked and I had to redo all my zip tie work.










The black PrimoFlex tubes won't arrive until next week should be an interesting effect with the lighting.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Sep 3, 2022)

It looks expensive. Good job 

I am not a fan of distro plates... too much tubes.


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## A Computer Guy (Sep 3, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> It looks expensive. Good job


I've been piecemealing the improvements over the years.


Ferrum Master said:


> I am not a fan of distro plates... too much tubes.


If I just would have stuck with the pump/tube combo I would have had simply 4 tubes + drain and life would have soo much simpler.



Ferrum Master said:


> I have a overclocked GPU in the loop spitting 300W of energy in the loop also. Top internal side rads are 360ties and bottom 240. If I put the 280 all my bottom motherboard I/O for USB switches etc are blocked and headers have no space to be attached. It is a serious flaw in the case design.
> 
> I had an opportunity to compare blocks when building loop for a mate using my older block and thus I made a conclusion on my own, EK sucks about for ~5C. I have an older pic of the build. There are things to improve. I can attach another 360 sandwiched in the internal side wall. Well maybe if those new gen 600W GPU's it would become a need.
> 
> View attachment 260223


Is the top rad a cross flow?  Are they all xspc rads?  Is the side rad ports on bottom or top?


----------



## Ferrum Master (Sep 4, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> I've been piecemealing the improvements over the years.
> 
> If I just would have stuck with the pump/tube combo I would have had simply 4 tubes + drain and life would have soo much simpler.
> 
> ...



No, only the top one is crossflow, it really helps with the tube management as the CPU exit tube looks always ugly if there are two of them. The exit of the crossflow goes directly into the tank and is crewed on with extender, so the tank does not need any clips, it just stays where it should be. I got it years ago also. The internal side is a Bykski 360mm/38mm thick low density fin one, ports are at the bottom, all connected with fittings and extenders, basically tubeless. Actually I am planning to do the there the stacked variant. You can fit a slim 360, so rads on both sides of that bracket. You can screw them on by taking out and slide them opposite ways, top screws should be visible, thus you can manage to tighten them enough when sliding back and then put in the case, the fan pressure should be enough, but it is just all about heat capacity. The bottom one 240 is my oldest rad, I have even repainted it twice. Shame 280 didn't fit there, it caused me an unwelcome surprise as found out about only when screwing everything together. And the manometer there ain't for the looks also. It is a 1bar one and it works really well as a loop internal pressure gauge. You can test leaks with it also. If the pump ramps up, needle goes up. Also I changed the CPU tubes to 10/16. Thus now I don't need a crouch to support the GPU, it stays firm in the slot.

But yea... with that distro plate you caused more clutter than use versus doing the traditional way. But much more easy, as you do not need to cherry pick the fittings.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Sep 5, 2022)

Got the PrimoFlex today

I finally refitted the flow but my pump noise still remains - no improvement. Either I simply got a noisy pump, or the distroplate 90's are the issue, our my case resonance with the EK D5 pump/distroplate combo is just noisy.  It looks better though.

Before





After new tubes
- had to relocate my warm temp sensor up top with my 4 way splitter.
- reconfigure drain value and since I had a ball value laying around I also installed the drain on the other side of the distroplate.





The bottom loop was a bit challenging to make it small enough but not kink.  To help prevent kinking I used some zip ties.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 5, 2022)

Hi,
Still should lay your case on it's back so distro plate is facing the ceiling
Might help get any air out of the pump if any exist
Then bop the case to release any bubbles.
Repeat tilting in all directions bop again.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Sep 5, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Still should lay your case on it's back so distro plate is facing the ceiling
> Might help get any air out of the pump if any exist
> Then bop the case to release any bubbles.
> Repeat tilting in all directions bop again.


I'll try that.  Also the distroplate flow indicator does have improved spin at low RPM so I can see it is flowing better.


----------



## tabascosauz (Sep 5, 2022)

A Computer Guy said:


> The EK spreader has a fairly large mass and the total surface area to dissipate heat ends up tripling (sorry didn't calc the measurements exactly) on on the surface of the modules alone.  I don't have a picture if it but also there is quite a bit of room inside the spreader as well.   Forcing air through that cavity again increases the surface area again maybe by another 3/5ths and when shoving airflow through both sides of the spreader there is enough surface area where I can reach parity with the motherboard temp during the entirety of the OCCT 1hr test.
> 
> Caveats of the EK heat spreader
> 
> ...



Am I missing something here...? The EK kit is not a heatspreader, it's an adapter for their RAM waterblock (same with Barrow). A lot of flat slab third party RAM spreaders are not designed for air, instead intended as either waterblock adapter or XOC use (LN2). For air you need surface area and airflow, flat slabs don't provide much. You wouldn't be too far off just using the 40mm fan on naked DIMMs.

Case in point - the FMMJ kit looks really nice but that's really all it has going for it, for above reason 









						XTIA & HAO FMMJ RAM Jacket GEN3
					

For ITX lovers who want "No RGB" RAM set   We are updating the FMMJ（GEN3 ）, so the existing version of the white FMMJ is on promotion We will no longer produce this version of FMMJ, and the new version of FMMJ will use more efficient processing methods to bring cheaper products.    The...



					xtia.design


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## A Computer Guy (Sep 5, 2022)

tabascosauz said:


> Am I missing something here...? The EK kit is not a heatspreader, it's an adapter for their RAM waterblock (same with Barrow). A lot of flat slab third party RAM spreaders are not designed for air, instead intended as either waterblock adapter or XOC use (LN2). For air you need surface area and airflow, flat slabs don't provide much. You wouldn't be too far off just using the 40mm fan on naked DIMMs.


This was primarily for aesthetics although it does increase the surface area and spread heat too.  With some air flow it is mildly effective at managing heat.


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## A Computer Guy (Sep 8, 2022)

Check this out.   I had this in my storage and decided to see if it still works.








						TPU's Nostalgic Hardware Club
					

Have a set of Geils just like those - Same thing in fact and they will do DDR500..... And not an inch more.  Not really happy with them but they were cheap at least when I got them.




					www.techpowerup.com
				




RAM DISK configured in dual SATA mode via jumper. (will present itself as two disks, because two banks of ram)

Turning on the Windows 10 software RAID 0.  (Hardware RAID in UEFI/BIOS is off) SATA mode is ACHI, so 2 disks detected by OS and joined as a raid 0 volume in Windows.





Turning on the RAID in the UEFI/BIOS and configuring the RAM Drive as an actual RAID 0





Here is a comparison against a real RAM disk carved out of my actual RAM


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## Mussels (Sep 12, 2022)

"- So EDC past 145A kills boost clocks so that is a no go."


This is a BIOS bug that's cropped up, i don't know specifics but it's been mentioned a few times


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 12, 2022)

Mussels said:


> This is a BIOS bug that's cropped up, i don't know specifics but it's been mentioned a few times



I do not think it is a bug. It is intended by design. AGESA brang it, there's no blame on motherboard vendors.


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## Mussels (Sep 13, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> I do not think it is a bug. It is intended by design. AGESA brang it, there's no blame on motherboard vendors.


Not the first time an overclocking feature has gone awry and been fixed in updates.

Some of those changes came in for the 5800x3D and got applied to the regular 5800x, as an example.


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 13, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Not the first time an overclocking feature has gone awry and been fixed in updates.
> 
> Some of those changes came in for the 5800x3D and got applied to the regular 5800x, as an example.



They came at least one official AGESA before the 5800x3D, so it may not be the culprit.


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## Zach_01 (Sep 13, 2022)

Mussels said:


> "- So EDC past 145A kills boost clocks so that is a no go."
> 
> 
> This is a BIOS bug that's cropped up, i don't know specifics but it's been mentioned a few times


EDC has a default limit of 140A for the 105W TDP SKUs anyway.
Most users tend to extend this limit (EDC) along with PPT and think they are giving the CPU headroom to boost more.
So the board sees the extended limit and without further ado cranks everything up... Its just how vendors have them.
The reality is that the CPU silicon FITness (health) management (which is more intelligent than the board, but still its not AI) sees the increased current(A) and cuts down boost, because that is its main job.

Its "common sense" or it should be by now (for those who understand a couple of things about silicon degradation) that within the same power envelope and same temperature, higher current(A) can start killing the silicon little by little through EMI (migration). If you keep steady the power and temp, and start bringing down current(A) the clocks will go up (hence the same W and T), to the point that voltage is enough for sustained boost. If you restrict EDC too much clocks will go down again.
Curve Optimizer (negatives) plays a major role into this. It helps you bring down EDC more to the point that (again) voltage is enough for clocks to go up (but) with stability.
*If you can cool down silicon further with a better cooler (lets say from 85C to 75C), then FIT will let not only clocks but current(A) too to go up. Power will go up as well as a result of this.
*Its too difficult though to keep temp under control on these chips mostly because of the heat density.

The only real bypass of FIT is the CPU PBO Scalar (xX). The more times you set it (x2, x3, x4...) the bigger the bypass.
I've been saying this for about 2.5years now, and finally, at least Gigabyte has a description about it in BIOS.

Here:



EDIT:
Typo(s)

And some addition (*)


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 13, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Gigabyte has a description about it BIOS.



I refuse to believe my eyes seeing that something is done right in Gigabyte Bios.


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