# Intel Core i7 8700K Reportedly Reaches 4.8 GHz Easily, 5 GHz+ Requires Delid



## Raevenlord (Sep 22, 2017)

A report out of Expreview says that users should expect Intel's 8700K 6-core processor to easily clock up to 4.8 GHz with conventional cooling methods. Apparently, the chip doesn't even need that much voltage to achieve this feat either; however, thermal constraints are quickly hit when pushing Intel's latest (upcoming) leader for the mainstream desktop parts. Expreview says that due to the much increased temperatures, users who want to eke out the most performance from their CPU purchase will likely have to try and resort to delidding of their 8700K. While that likely wouldn't have been necessary with Intel's 7700K processors, remember that here we have two extra CPU cores drawing power and producing waste heat, so it makes sense that thermals will be a bigger problem.

This is understandable: Intel is still using their much chagrined (and divisive) TIM as a heat conductor between the CPU die and the CPU's IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader), which has been proven to be a less than adequate way of conducting said heat. However, we all knew this would be the case; remember that Intel's HEDT HCC processors also feature this TIM, and in that case, we're talking of up to 18-core processors that can cost up to $1,999 - if Intel couldn't be bothered to spend the extra cents for actual solder as an interface material there, they certainly wouldn't do so here. As with almost all peeks at as of yet unreleased products, take this report (particularly when it comes to frequencies, as each CPU overclocks differently) with a grain of salt, please.



 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.


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## Static~Charge (Sep 22, 2017)

"Intel is still using their much chagrined TIM as a heat conductor between the CPU die and the CPU's IHS"

chagrin, n. -- A keen feeling of mental unease, as of annoyance or embarrassment, caused by failure, disappointment, or a disconcerting event.​
Instead of "chagrined", a more appropriate word might be: despised, detested, loathsome, deplorable, reviled, disliked.


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## Raevenlord (Sep 22, 2017)

Static~Charge said:


> "Intel is still using their much chagrined TIM as a heat conductor between the CPU die and the CPU's IHS"
> 
> chagrin, n. -- A keen feeling of mental unease, as of annoyance or embarrassment, caused by failure, disappointment, or a disconcerting event.​
> Instead of "chagrined", a more appropriate word might be: despised, detested, loathsome, deplorable, reviled, disliked.



I think chagrined fits well, since to my eyes, it's both disconcerting and a disappointment. causing me to roll my eyes in annoyance =)

But thanks for that. Though I think divisive would be best.


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## erocker (Sep 22, 2017)

Not much different going back a few generations now.



danbert2000 said:


> It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.



TIM outlasts soldier? You serious?


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## kaellar (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers.


LMFAO you can't be serious, can you?


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## ZoneDymo (Sep 22, 2017)

who cares yo, its all about dat Ryzen


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.


What ,, how is solder going to wear quicker then regular Tim ,if im mssing something someone please enlighten me.

Seams like intels bulldozer to me , and that's a light jab as way back I fully understood the physics of the task and got an 8350 and plenty of cooling regardless, then clocked it to 5ghz , its at 4.8 now due to degradation and being on its whole life (5+years of Folding@home and a bit of wcg), some year's now , I would love to hear how stock untouched i7 7700ks or this new beastie hold clocks at 4.8 after similar abuse ,as I've experience myself of this tim stuff and it isn't capable of miracles.


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## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2017)

Yeah, there is no way TIM outlasts solder.  Even if it did, all the first gen i7s running around prove the longevity issues nonexistant.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 22, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Yeah, there is no way TIM outlasts solder.  Even if it did, all the first gen i7s running around prove the longevity issues nonexistant.


I agree they can last don't get me wrong but um talking about overclocking to this 4.(high) on all cores then putting adequate cooling on it and setting it to task for five years, I'd like to see some proof of such a thing without a delid.
Id expect much reduced thermal transfer over time and glitchy stability myself.


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## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I agree they can last don't get me wrong but um talking about overclocking to this 4.(high) on all cores then putting adequate cooling on it and setting it to task for five years, I'd like to see some proof of such a thing without a delid.
> Id expect much reduced thermal transfer over time and glitchy stability myself.



I'm running a first gen i7 in my brothers rig at 4Ghz no delid.  Then again, first gen i7s are soldered.  I think the silicon will go before the solder does at this rate.


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

"Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader. Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.


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## phanbuey (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> "Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."
> 
> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
> 
> Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader. Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.



I thought it was because the bga solder that held the cpu to the motherboard actually melted from the heat... that's why people could bake their xbox 360's back into working condition...

AFAIK the xbox CPU didnt even have a heatspreader.

EDIT:  Yeah just checked... it was the solder that held the chip to the board, not thermal solder that holds the heatspreader to a cpu.  

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Reflowing+Xbox+360+Motherboard/5845


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## OSdevr (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> "Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader. Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.



First off, the solder on the Xbox 360 wasn't attaching the CPU to the heatsink but the CPU to the board. The thermal stresses are WAY different. Second, it probably wouldn't have been a problem anyway if Microsoft had used the correct solder for the BGA balls. BTW the CPU chip itself was poorly designed and had a low yield. Lesson learned; don't let a software company design hardware in house!


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> "Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."
> 
> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
> 
> Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader. Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.



The issue with the Xbox 360 was the solder used in attaching the chip itself to the motherboard , not the solder used for the heatsink. They didn't even use solder for that.

Do some research and cut back the Intel damage control.


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

Yes I know the Xbox did not fail due to soldered heatsink failure. It did fail due to cracking solder. Which everyone else is saying isn't a problem. Clearly it is. Solder can crack anywhere due to heat/cool cycles, including between a $2000 server CPU and its head spreader.

Intel did the math and figured they would save warranty money and have a more reliable product if it didn't have the risk of cracking solder at the major thermal interface.

You guys really suck at reading comprehension by the way, I never said the Xbox failed due to solder in the heatspreader failing. I pointed to it as one of the most famous examples of solder failure messing up a product's reliability. Now put on your synthesis hats and apply that experience, of solder failing, to a different application of solder. I know you can.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

Okay, poorly informed troll.

 And by the way , don't double post.


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> Okay poorly informed troll.



So you either read the article and disagree with it but don't have the intelligence to give a reason, or you didn't read the article and just wanted to be pedantic for what turned out to be your mistake in reading comprehension. Gotcha. I guess I'm the best kind of troll, the one that discusses the actual post and gives evidence as to why Intel may not use solder even if it has better thermal performance.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't care about the article at all , my comment had nothing to do with it. I reckon you should take a better look at what I said and tone back the insults.

You claimed the Xbox 360's high failure rate was due to those "micro-cracks". Which is simply false , the low temperature solder Microsoft used would easily reach the melting point due to poor cooling causing the solder points to deform and ultimately brake connection. I have no idea how the hell you made the connection between that and the micro-cracks caused by thermal cycles that article was talking about.  Actually I do , you don't know what you're talking about. Talking about comprehension , oh boy...

And don't flatter yourself , you're a pretty basic run-of-the-mill troll.

Anyway , now that I made myself clear I'm done with this discussion , I suggest you stop here as well.


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> You claimed the Xbox 360's high failure rate was due to those "micro-cracks". Which is simply false , the low temperature solder Microsoft used would easily reach the melting point due to poor cooling causing the solder points to deform and ultimately brake connection.



"German computer magazine _c't_ blamed the problem primarily on the use of the wrong type of lead-free solder, a type that when exposed to elevated temperatures for extended periods of time becomes brittle and can develop hair-line cracks that are almost irreparable"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems#Causes

Oh man, in fighting against trolls you've become one. I have all the evidence on my side and all you have is a bad attitude.


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## phanbuey (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> Yes I know the Xbox did not fail due to soldered heatsink failure. It did fail due to cracking solder. Which everyone else is saying isn't a problem. Clearly it is. Solder can crack anywhere due to heat/cool cycles, including between a $2000 server CPU and its head spreader.
> 
> Intel did the math and figured they would save warranty money and have a more reliable product if it didn't have the risk of cracking solder at the major thermal interface.
> 
> You guys really suck at reading comprehension by the way, I never said the Xbox failed due to solder in the heatspreader failing. I pointed to it as one of the most famous examples of solder failure messing up a product's reliability. Now put on your synthesis hats and apply that experience, of solder failing, to a different application of solder. I know you can.



I am no expert but I am pretty sure that they are different alloys of indium, complete with different pre-prep, thermal performance, and soldering processes.  Can you use indium wire for soldering your heatsink?  sure... is that what intel / amd uses? probably not.  Do they have soldered CPUs that have been running for decades? yes...

To say that "solder can crack and damage your core" takes a bit of assuming.  I think intel definitely did the math, and realized their operating profit would be much higher with minimal impact to failure rates if they opted for cheaper tim.

sTIM cracking <> CPU failing <> xBox BGA cheapo manufacturing process - those are the leaps you're trying to make but they're not connected.  

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6066933/

Thermal paste dries out / separates/ cracks over time as well, may not damage the chip or it may bake it...


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> "German computer magazine _c't_ blamed the problem primarily on the use of the wrong type of lead-free solder, a type that when exposed to elevated temperatures for extended periods of time becomes brittle and can develop hair-line cracks that are almost irreparable"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems#Causes
> 
> Oh man, in fighting against trolls you've become one. I have all the evidence on my side and all you have is a bad attitude.



Nah , all you have is a place on my ignore list. It took some effort on your part , I got to say.


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

phanbuey, did you read the article I posted? I'm not the one making the case for solder as the TIM being more prone to failure, the nice people at overclocking.guide are. I was just relaying what I read as it's a counterpoint to the author's position that Intel is only doing this for the money. Also, I did not use the XBOX 360 RROD fiasco as proof of why solder TIM is a bad idea, I gave it as an example of solder failing under thermal load. Before that post, the mood of this thread was derision at the mere thought that solder instead of paste could cause problems. You need to respect the difference between an example of general solder failure rather than a link in my argument. I know why everyone jumped on the 360 stuff though, that's a lot easier to argue against than the analysis in the article I posted, which is pretty solid.

To your point about thermal paste drying out, it won't dry out in a sealed environment like a heatspreader, or at least not for decades. Where is the moisture going to go?

Thanks for being civil while arguing against me, it's a lot easier to have a discussion when people aren't throwing "troll" and "ignore list" around.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 22, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> I'm running a first gen i7 in my brothers rig at 4Ghz no delid.  Then again, first gen i7s are soldered.  I think the silicon will go before the solder does at this rate.



I agree


danbert2000 said:


> "German computer magazine _c't_ blamed the problem primarily on the use of the wrong type of lead-free solder, a type that when exposed to elevated temperatures for extended periods of time becomes brittle and can develop hair-line cracks that are almost irreparable"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems#Causes
> 
> Oh man, in fighting against trolls you've become one. I have all the evidence on my side and all you have is a bad attitude.


That's solder used in a different use case ,and solder dries out, all of it does , eventually, but if soldered poorly electrical connections can deteriorate fast , but thats fixable sometimes via reflow , I've had jobs doing just that.
Soldered heatsink is purely for thermal not electric conductivity and you ares so wrong it hurts.


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## danbert2000 (Sep 22, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> That's solder used in a different use case ,and solder dries out, all of it does , eventually, but if soldered poorly electrical connections can deteriorate fast , but thats fixable sometimes via reflow , I've had jobs doing just that. Soldered heatsink is purely for thermal not electric conductivity and you ares so wrong it hurts.



Here, I think you missed this article I posted and we're all discussing. Maybe you want to actually read it this time. Why are you even bringing up electrical conductivity... The whole point is that cracking solder between the heatspreader and the processor will lead to hotspots on the processor and could kill it. I'd like to see you reflow the solder on a processor after the solder has begun to degrade.

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/


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## jjxaker (Sep 22, 2017)

the director of Intel officially stated that the solder will no more ever, they do not see in it the needs!
Intel as the company degrade:
Savings on textolite, it became thinner
Savings on the thermal interface
Savings on the cooling system (previously there was always a cooler in the kit)
Savings on quality conductors, less gold


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 22, 2017)

Funny how Intel is talking about clocks again... 5.0GHz? I'm on air without extreme modding to reach that.


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## phanbuey (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> phanbuey, did you read the article I posted? I'm not the one making the case for solder as the TIM being more prone to failure, the nice people at overclocking.guide are. I was just relaying what I read as it's a counterpoint to the author's position that Intel is only doing this for the money. Also, I did not use the XBOX 360 RROD fiasco as proof of why solder TIM is a bad idea, I gave it as an example of solder failing under thermal load. Before that post, the mood of this thread was derision at the mere thought that solder instead of paste could cause problems. You need to respect the difference between an example of general solder failure rather than a link in my argument. I know why everyone jumped on the 360 stuff though, that's a lot easier to argue against than the analysis in the article I posted, which is pretty solid.
> 
> To your point about thermal paste drying out, it won't dry out in a sealed environment like a heatspreader, or at least not for decades. Where is the moisture going to go?
> 
> Thanks for being civil while arguing against me, it's a lot easier to have a discussion when people aren't throwing "troll" and "ignore list" around.



I did go back and read the article - and I realized after i read your initial post what you actually meant.
My problem with the article was that his statements are unfounded: "Micro cracks in solder preforms *can* damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it *should* have a longer durability – *especially for small size DIE CPUs.*"


He is mainly implying that die size is a relevant factor, which is not true because Skylake-X are gigantic dies, and they are still TIM'ed - so that is already a warning that he is being pretty liberal with his assumptions.  Also, solder cracks - but with a professional application, you won't have voids, and specially designed compounds *shouldn't* crack if they are specc'd to handle the thermal load.

What this article says is "If you solder your CPU, which wasn't designed to be soldered, in your house using compounds designed for general purpose soldering and a heatspreader that is not properly spaced, it will probably crack and you will break your CPU" = which is 100% true.  But the assertion that this also happens to professional grade sTIMs is iffy, and that when it does it actually breaks the chip is even iffier.

regarding the TIM:


danbert2000 said:


> Where is the moisture going to go?


- the fact that there is "moisture" coming off of the thermal paste would make me think that it is chemically separating (take with a grain of salt) - it won't leave the area of the heatspreader, but it may (or may not) find its way back to where it needs to be within the TIM and be re-absorbed into the compound.

Ultimately we just don't know why intel chose TIM, but if I was a betting man it would be cost / manufacturing constraints and not because sTIM are more or less reliable than TIMs.  I do appreciate the counterpoint, that there is a +/- to any technique....


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> Funny how Intel is talking about clocks again... 5.0GHz? I'm on air without extreme modding to reach that.



And with a fairly old architecture on a fairly antiquated manufacturing process.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> And with a fairly old architecture on a fairly antiquated manufacturing process.



Considering the 9370 and 9590 needed water...

My point being is after Ryzen came about Intel started pushing "5.0GHz" also older architectures don't typically clock better...


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

Well , achieving high clocks is tricky business , but on today's nodes it isn't that amazing to have a chip running at 5 Ghz.


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## OSdevr (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> You claimed the Xbox 360's high failure rate was due to those "micro-cracks". Which is simply false , the low temperature solder Microsoft used would easily reach the melting point due to poor cooling causing the solder points to deform and ultimately brake connection.



Sorry but this is incorrect. All solder has a melting point well beyond the operating temperature of the components BECAUSE it could melt otherwise. In the case of the 360 it actually may have helped if the balls softened; those cracks would seal up then.



danbert2000 said:


> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/



Just read that article. It is somewhat well researched yet comes to a completely wrong conclusion. I happen to know a few things about chip design and packaging (don't ask how). For example there is no need for Indium in bonding the die to the IHS. As shown in the article's Figure 7 both the top of the die and underside of the IHS are gold plated. Any solder can join gold to gold.

I should point out that there are decades old power electronics which use solder connections and they still run just fine, and the connections (like in the Xbox 360) suffer a much greater thermal gradient than solder between a die and IHS.


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## goodeedidid (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.


Thank you!


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## FR@NK (Sep 22, 2017)

The news editors on TPU are doing a great job flame war baiting most of you guys....

Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

OSdevr said:


> Sorry but this is incorrect. All solder has a melting point well beyond the operating temperature of the components BECAUSE it could melt otherwise. In the case of the 360 it actually may have helped if the balls softened; those cracks would seal up then.


 
Certainly not all. There are solder alloys that can melt at around ~110C. Totally within the reach of overheating computer chips. Microsoft seems to have used extremely poor quality solder in conjunction with very poor cooling as well. Which explains why a re-flow would sometimes not even last a couple of days , there is no way cracks that develop that slowly would be the cause of that.


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## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> My point being is after Ryzen came about Intel started pushing "5.0GHz" also older architectures don't typically clock better...



Kaby Lake precedes Ryzen, no?


FR@NK said:


> Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.



Most processors now are, AMD included.  It's a good time for us enthusiasts.


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## OSdevr (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> There are solder alloys that can melt at around 100C. Totally within the reach of overheating computer chips. Microsoft seems to have used extremely poor quality solder in conjunction with very poor cooling as well. Which explains why a re-flow would sometimes not even last a couple of days , there is no way cracks that develop that slowly would be the cause of that.



There are solder alloys that melt even lower than that but they're not used for electronics. As for the reflow it very much depends on how it is done (an oven doesn't cut it). You're actually supposed to reball a BGA for proper reflow.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

Low solder is definitely used for electronics. For mounting some BGA chips such alloys are in fact used.

You are supposed to use the right tool for the right job. Clearly that didn't happen in 360's case , MS tried to cut cost using poor materials and poor designs , it bit them back hard.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> Here, I think you missed this article I posted and we're all discussing. Maybe you want to actually read it this time. Why are you even bringing up electrical conductivity... The whole point is that cracking solder between the heatspreader and the processor will lead to hotspots on the processor and could kill it. I'd like to see you reflow the solder on a processor after the solder has begun to degrade.
> 
> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/


Peice of piss with the right gear and no im busy your still wrong , vapour isn't arsed about gaps i assure you it gets out ,tim dries , it looses efficiency and solder is significantly longer lasting.
Even despite the silicone glue seal it'll get out physics says so.


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## evernessince (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> Yes I know the Xbox did not fail due to soldered heatsink failure. It did fail due to cracking solder. Which everyone else is saying isn't a problem. Clearly it is. Solder can crack anywhere due to heat/cool cycles, including between a $2000 server CPU and its head spreader.
> 
> Intel did the math and figured they would save warranty money and have a more reliable product if it didn't have the risk of cracking solder at the major thermal interface.
> 
> You guys really suck at reading comprehension by the way, I never said the Xbox failed due to solder in the heatspreader failing. I pointed to it as one of the most famous examples of solder failure messing up a product's reliability. Now put on your synthesis hats and apply that experience, of solder failing, to a different application of solder. I know you can.



You do realize that mobile parts have been soldered forever.  Every component on the PCB is soldered.  You are sitting here telling us that Intel is right and the entirety of the rest of the industry is wrong.  I have a 1960's amp sitting right next to me that was hand soldered.  Only in rare cases does solder fail.  TIM on the other hand is KNOWN to dry out after only a handful of years

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/311177-does-thermal-paste-dry-out/
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=518026
http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3277572/thermal-paste-dries.html

In addition, TIM is much more susceptible to air pockets, either during application or over time.  Last, the more heat applied to TIM the quicker it dries.  The same applies to solder but solder has an order of magnitude greater durability.  Even mined on video cards take at least 5 years for whitening to start occurring.  The thermal paste on the other hand has to be replaced every 2 months on a 24/7 card. You can stop bullshitting everyone, Intel isn't some magic child that knows something about TIM no one else does.


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

Stop feeding the troll.


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## OSdevr (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> Low solder is definitely used for electronics. For mounting some BGA chips such alloys are in fact used.
> 
> You are supposed to use the right tool for the right job. Clearly that didn't happen in 360's case , MS tried to cut cost using poor materials and poor designs , it bit them back hard.



I'll believe you if you have an example. Low melting point solders are generally more expensive than higher melting point solders especially if they are lead free (required for RoHS compliance) and generally do contain Indium. ChipQuick for example is a low melting point 'solder' generally used to remove SMD components from a board and it costs several times what normal solder does.


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## dicktracy (Sep 22, 2017)

Sold my 1700. Here comes the 8700k!


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## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

OSdevr said:


> I'll believe you if you have an example. Low melting point solders are generally more expensive than higher melting point solders especially if they are lead free (required for RoHS compliance) and generally do contain Indium. ChipQuick for example is a low melting point 'solder' generally used to remove SMD components from a board and it costs several times what normal solder does.



And I'm curious what explanation you have for what happened with the 360 ? They used top quality high melting point solder , no ?


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## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 22, 2017)

TIM really isnt the issue. The black glue shit they use that once it gets hot, it expands a bit and then makes it so that there isn't as good of contact between the die and the IHS.


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## EarthDog (Sep 22, 2017)

Thats a new one... 

Height of the ihs off the die is an issue due to that glue, but i dont recall hearing about it expanding.. just that they are too high/helps when its removed as its slightly close to the die.


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## OSdevr (Sep 22, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> And I'm curious what explanation you have for what happened with the 360 ? They used top quality high melting point solder , no ?



High melting point solder can still be low quality .


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## phanbuey (Sep 22, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> Thats a new one...
> 
> Height of the ihs off the die is an issue due to that glue, but i dont recall hearing about ot expanding.. just that they are too high.



I think that intel are actually lizard people... and that thier plan is to divide and conquer by giving us fast but thermally inferior processors.


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 22, 2017)

Probably dating myself bere but... "V"


----------



## Vya Domus (Sep 22, 2017)

OSdevr said:


> High melting point solder can still be low quality .



And what happened with this low quality solder ? How did the solder points fail ? Did they crack out of no where ? Come on man , don't keep me on edge.


----------



## Steevo (Sep 22, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> So you either read the article and disagree with it but don't have the intelligence to give a reason, or you didn't read the article and just wanted to be pedantic for what turned out to be your mistake in reading comprehension. Gotcha. I guess I'm the best kind of troll, the one that discusses the actual post and gives evidence as to why Intel may not use solder even if it has better thermal performance.




So all the solder used in high temp (not the paltry less than 220F chips interface) that works fine should crack out, right?

Except it doesn't. The TIM vs Solder is a choice in cost, and in performance limiting. Intel can tell if a chip has been overclocked and deem it unwarrantiable if they use TIM as the thermal conductivity limits maximum clocks. Solder would allow users to clock higher with more voltage easier and damage chips and they wouldn't be able to tell.

Solder is the superior choice, which is why it's used on every other part of the board including VRMs and FETs.

Lastly, suggesting that Intel uses Solder for longevity and AMD would have issues is so uninformed that it doesn't even warrant a response beyond this, testing small BGA at 100C shows modern solders don't start to fail until 16000 heat cycles, and that would be the mode of failure for Intel or AMD as they require that solder between the silicon die and substrate, regardless of thermal interface material, except if kept cooler, meaning a cooler running chip will last longer than the BGA will. All else being equal, solder is superior.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gg0MAI&usg=AFQjCNE4pEFh03aXZ_d71bj6wjaGKMH0fg


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 22, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> Probably dating myself bere but... "V"
> 
> 
> View attachment 92376




Date frog people...  save yourselves!


----------



## OSdevr (Sep 23, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> And what happened with this low quality solder ? How did the solder points fail ? Come on man , don't keep me on edge.



I think the solder was a badly non-eutectic alloy. From Wikipedia's Solder article:

"Non-eutectic alloys have markedly different _solidus_ and _liquidus_ temperatures, and within that range they exist as a paste of solid particles in a melt of the lower-melting phase. In electrical work, if the joint is disturbed in the pasty state before it has solidified totally, a poor electrical connection may result; use of eutectic solder reduces this problem."

The solder would have fractured along the grain boundaries of it's different components.


----------



## Vya Domus (Sep 23, 2017)

And what exactly makes you think this was the case ?

Frankly the use of poor low temperature solder seems much more likely to cause such high failure rates.

Interestingly enough Nvidia had similar problems too around the same time. It turned out it was indeed because of poor high-lead solder with a very low melting point where the joints would in fact deform , eventually breaking contact and cause the card to fail.


----------



## OSdevr (Sep 23, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> Interestingly enough Nvidia had similar problems too around the same time. It turned out it was indeed because of poor high-lead solder with a very low melting point where the joints would in fact deform eventually breaking contact and cause the card to fail.



Huh, I thought the problem was unique to the 360.


----------



## Vya Domus (Sep 23, 2017)

OSdevr said:


> Huh, I thought the problem was unique to the 360.



It didn't , if you search around for 7xxx series cards all the way up to the 200 series you're going to find a lot of defective cards which most likely died this way. There was quite the fuss over this back when this was uncovered.


----------



## Dave65 (Sep 23, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.



WTF are you smoking?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 23, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Kaby Lake precedes Ryzen, no?
> 
> 
> Most processors now are, AMD included.  It's a good time for us enthusiasts.



 yeah panic mode more like it


----------



## newtekie1 (Sep 23, 2017)

Dave65 said:


> WTF are you smoking?



The still functioning Pentiums D 805 I have says whatever he is smoking, it is some good stuff!


----------



## Prince Valiant (Sep 23, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/


People love linking to that and seemingly always miss this line:


> A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes.



What usage scenario, outside of specifically testing it, does that apply to?


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 23, 2017)

Personally, I want bare dies to make a comeback...


----------



## INSTG8R (Sep 23, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> And what exactly makes you think this was the case ?
> 
> Frankly the use of poor low temperature solder seems much more likely to cause such high failure rates.
> 
> Interestingly enough Nvidia had similar problems too around the same time. It turned out it was indeed because of poor high-lead solder with a very low melting point where the joints would in fact deform , eventually breaking contact and cause the card to fail.


Yep I have an old laptop with an 8400M that was bad and needed replacement. PS3 phats go the same way eventually too.


----------



## Melvis (Sep 23, 2017)

If it runs over 80c at stock clocks on air cooling then its a bit of a fail in my eyes.


----------



## ps000000 (Sep 23, 2017)

CINEBENCH R15 multi threads score  @ 4.8 on 6Cores12Threads ????


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 23, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> "Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."
> 
> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
> 
> Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader. Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.



That article if you can call it that contradicts itself and is borderline fear mongering. Read the fine print:


> Micro cracks occur after about 200 to 300 thermal cycles. A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes. The micro cracks will grow over time and can damage the CPU permanently if the thermal resistance increases too much or the solder preform cracks completely.



So how many times are YOU going to run your cpu from -55 °C to 125 °C and hold it for 15 minutes at each extreme for 200 to 300 cycles???? Lmao, how much money in LN2 is that going to take lol.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 23, 2017)

Prince Valiant said:


> People love linking to that and seemingly always miss this line:



Those who link to that article imo haven't actually read it. In the first half, it describes the miraculous properties of iridium.



> However, tin based solder won’t stick to silicon at all. In addition, solidifying tin will shrink by a large factor which results in a big thermal tension inside the material. _This tension could already damage the substrate of the CPU_.
> 
> Indium (Figure 4) is the only known material which can stick to both, copper and silicon. At the same time, solidifying indium doesn’t shrink much which leads to a small factor of thermal tension inside the TIM.



Note since Tin based solder won't adhere to silicon, it's thermal tension won't matter if it damages or not, it won't stick defeating the point. But luckily we have iridium solder which does stick. 



> *In addition, indium is very ductile which allows thermal expansion of substrate and heatspreader without damaging any of the components involved.* Indium melts at 157 °C.



But then does it damage or does it not? See the article reads like paid propaganda to me.


----------



## Nihilus (Sep 23, 2017)

FR@NK said:


> The news editors on TPU are doing a great job flame war baiting most of you guys....
> 
> Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.



Agreed!  Not sure why it was brought up except to start a flame war.  Everyone knew it would be TIM already.


----------



## phanbuey (Sep 23, 2017)

Nihilus said:


> Agreed!  Not sure why it was brought up except to start a flame war.  Everyone knew it would be TIM already.



That's a relevant topic of discussion - and also no one knew if there were going to be any additional improvements of the manufacturing process for the 6 core or if they were going to roll out KB+2.

The flame is just built up angst that intel :


----------



## Totally (Sep 23, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> "Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs." Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader.
> 
> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/



Sure does dry out and formsmicro fissures over _time_ tho. Yep just needs time.



> Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.



Cracks forming is also heavily dependent on number of heat cycles over the lifetime of the chip. Just throwing that 2c out there.


----------



## oxidized (Sep 23, 2017)

Nonsense, there isn't a big enough thermal shock to crack solder, it'd have to go to melting point or close to it, way down to ambient temperature in seconds repeatedly, for that to happen. Still running 2600K @ 4.5GHz and it's been 6+ years, 0 problems


----------



## Totally (Sep 23, 2017)

oxidized said:


> Nonsense, there isn't a big enough thermal shock to crack solder, it'd have to go to melting point or close to it, way down to ambient temperature in seconds for that to happen. Still running 2600K @ 4.5GHz and it's been 6+ years, 0 problems



The cracks aren't formed by shock but by wicking of the Indium along the Gold bonding regions. I was pointing out that the cycle has to happen many times for this to become problematic as TIM defenders are making it out to be. Also melting temps do not need to be reached only enough energy need to be provided for the two metals to react causing the atoms to shift in the lattice. When enough atoms shift or are displaced cracks form.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

People constantly say that solder degrades. But has anyone actually EVER seen one that has failed or started overheating because of this? Or is this just fluff myth that exists in theory but not in practice? Where with TIM, we know that it's in fact inferior from a brand new processor purchased on day one...


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

INSTG8R said:


> Yep I have an old laptop with an 8400M that was bad and needed replacement. PS3 phats go the same way eventually too.



That wasn't because of solder, that was because the 8400M were defective on the fabrication level. I had one and salvaged it with baking process. The GPU was naked, it had no IHS...


----------



## INSTG8R (Sep 23, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> That wasn't because of solder, that was because the 8400M were defective on the fabrication level. I had one and salvaged it with baking process. The GPU was naked, it had no IHS...


Yeah I only started baking with PS3s with good success I might add.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

Well, with baking, you don't really have anything to lose. The component died already, so if you make it work, great, if not, well, it died anyway in the first place. So, it's always worth a try.


----------



## INSTG8R (Sep 23, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> Well, with baking, you don't really have anything to lose. The component died already, so if you make it work, great, if not, well, it died anyway in the first place. So, it's always worth a try.


I’m pretty sure my OG Release PS3 Phat went in the oven 6 times and came back before I gave up.


----------



## Basard (Sep 23, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> To your point about thermal paste drying out, it won't dry out in a sealed environment like a heatspreader, or at least not for decades. Where is the moisture going to go?



Heatspreaders are not sealed environments.   On every one there is either a hole drilled in the top or a gap in the bead of glue they use to hold it in place.

You get an "A" for effort, but your whole argument is flawed.


----------



## oxidized (Sep 23, 2017)

Totally said:


> The cracks aren't formed by shock but by wicking of the Indium along the Gold bonding regions. I was pointing out that the cycle has to happen many times for this to become problematic as TIM defenders are making it out to be. Also melting temps do not need to be reached only enough energy need to be provided for the two metals to react causing the atoms to shift in the lattice. When enough atoms shift or are displaced cracks form.



I have no idea what you're talking about but i'll take it , i thought thermal shock made it happen, something like what happens with Pb-Sn solder if it cools down too quickly.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

Things crack at extreme temperature shifts. Something CPU's never really experience. I mean, temperatures we read on Windows desktop are on-die sensor readings. 70°C inside core is a lot lower at the IHS point. It also never goes below ambient temperature which is usually what, 22-25°C, but CPU never ever reaches just that. My 5820K sits at around 35-38°C idle. So, that's roughly 30°C difference (even if it's 40 it's not much).


----------



## john_ (Sep 23, 2017)

They had this in the comment section of wccftech

 

Yes, I know, wccftech, but it does look like we have seen these reports before. I wonder how much better really are the new 14nm++ and Coffee Lake, compared to the original 14nm and Skylake.


----------



## cadaveca (Sep 23, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> It didn't , if you search around for 7xxx series cards all the way up to the 200 series you're going to find a lot of defective cards which most likely died this way. There was quite the fuss over this back when this was uncovered.


This problem was a result of RoHS coming into effect, and switching to lead-free solder. Took some time before they found the perfect blend, and this problem was present in nearly every type of electronic you can think of for a few years.



RejZoR said:


> People constantly say that solder degrades. But has anyone actually EVER seen one that has failed or started overheating because of this? Or is this just fluff myth that exists in theory but not in practice? Where with TIM, we know that it's in fact inferior from a brand new processor purchased on day one...


Yes, I have three or four chips that overheat on particular cores after some time to the point of instability, and those cores were fine before. There are also many reports of chips that begin to overheat after a time all over these forums. Not so common these days, but at the same time, people are changing rigs quite often, so it is hard to tell, but for sure reported. Nothing sucks more than having overheating Cores, and no real way to change the TIM.


Oh look, what's this CPU I just got? Oh wait, it's not *a* CPU, it's two! And an M.2 device? WTF... So... I don't need to speculate.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

But is it really a thing of an IHS solder or something else? Like a fab defect or something within core rather than IHS contacting point?

I mean, even if there is a fracture in there, the CPU heatsink pressure would probably keep it together, making difference unmeasurable. Especially on monolithic designs with Intel. I find it unlikely that a micro crack would affect just 1 core somehow. For that to happen it would have to be a huge crack which just doesn't seem to make sense.


----------



## cadaveca (Sep 23, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> But is it really a thing of an IHS solder or something else? Like a fab defect or something within core rather than IHS contacting point?
> 
> I mean, even if there is a fracture in there, the CPU heatsink pressure would probably keep it together, making difference unmeasurable. Especially on monolithic designs with Intel. I find it unlikely that a micro crack would affect just 1 core somehow. For that to happen it would have to be a huge crack which just doesn't seem to make sense.


100% spot on. So really, it's not just a micro-fissure. The solder actually wicks itself out of place, creating an air gap. What really causes this, other than "thermal cycling causing solder pump", is totally unknown. You shouldn't be able to "reflow" a CPU...

You do also need to keep in mind that these guys are likely using some weird blend of metals that is highly un-tested except in-house. There's probably some dude whose job it is requires him or her to play with this stuff day in and day out, until he retires. I'd love to talk to this guy.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 23, 2017)

4 pages about TIM vs solder going nowhere substantial, that to me is a sign that we are discussing a non issue...

Oh well


----------



## cadaveca (Sep 23, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> 4 pages about TIM vs solder going nowhere substantial, that to me is a sign that we are discussing a non issue...
> 
> Oh well


I think you missed the news item. It's about exactly that.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

Even with the fracturing risk, I'd take soldered IHS any time over TIM. I think all the CPU's I've had were soldered. And to date I never had issues. And I like to push them to the limit.


----------



## Steevo (Sep 23, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> 100% spot on. So really, it's not just a micro-fissure. The solder actually wicks itself out of place, creating an air gap. What really causes this, other than "thermal cycling causing solder pump", is totally unknown. You shouldn't be able to "reflow" a CPU...
> 
> You do also need to keep in mind that these guys are likely using some weird blend of metals that is highly un-tested except in-house. There's probably some dude whose job it is requires him or her to play with this stuff day in and day out, until he retires. I'd love to talk to this guy.




It is known, the electron energy of a mixture of metals allows two metals with a higher melting point to mix and creates a lower melting point. The solder gains energy enough to slowly reform small crystal lattices of its compounds and those differing crystal lattices are what cause the micro cracks or fissures. On a tiny BGA pad this is terrible, and will eventually result in death of all BGA devices unless the crystal lattice forms in such a way that it still allows low impedance conductivity. Note that thermal conductivity is NOT the same as electrical conductivity, as even though both metals may be thermally conductive still halogens still used in the substrate manufacturing may react with the solder metals and form a metal halide that is NOT conductive to electricity but is to heat. http://www.indium.com/blog/halogen-free-vs-halide-free.php https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halide Dave, your cores may become unstable due to voltage drop to specific cores, increase in the resistance of the solder joint causing communication issues, and would also raise the resistance of the thermal probe circuit which would look exactly like a higher temperature , or very remotely possibly that the indium has migrated away from a core if they coated too much of the IHS inside with gold, but the overwhelming evidence anymore is the BGA solder will fail long before solder used as TIM.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

Why don't they use liquid metals then? Even if their production costs are bumped up by $5 per CPU because of it and they charge extra $20 bucks for that to the end user, I'm willing to accept that. When you're paying 500+ bucks for CPU, extra 20 is nothing. This becomes even more true when we step up to 1000 and 1500 bucks CPU's. Adding extra 20 bucks on top of that is nothing if this ensures near perfection.

If TIM is crap and solder is bound to crack, liquid metal is best of both worlds. It can't crack and it has superior heat transmission. Cheaper CPU's can use TIM as it doesn't really matter for their heat output, but with 6+ core monsters, I want best of the best.


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 23, 2017)

But the tim works....

I dont get this....sure it can be better, but it does just fine at st9ck and overclocked...which probably 1% of people do.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

The "that'll do" approach only benefits product makers, not consumers. By not criticizing it, you're basically encouraging it. Today it's TIM instead of solder, tommor they'll charge you extra to even get the TIM...


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 23, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> I think you missed the news item. It's about exactly that.



Indeed it is, at the same time, soldered CPUs also cap out at similar clocks, and if you want to go further, you'll need exotic solutions just as well. Then there is a longevity concern, which also is not substantial, so far, I have yet to see credible numbers of Intel TIM CPUs that degrade faster than soldered ones. Reality dictates however, that a CPU is obsolete long before that happens.

The only trend we are really seeing is that Intel is eating up our OC headroom for us because the Core arch is nearing its end of life and a competitor presents a good product that can match its performance. At the same time, it cannot match its clocks by a long shot, while being soldered.

To me that is 'nuff said' with regards to solder vs TIM. What remains is a discussion for the 1% that likes to seek out limits and I am not surprised they find them...

Lol @EarthDog ... Great minds think alike or... I had not even read your response yet


----------



## InVasMani (Sep 23, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> Even with the fracturing risk, I'd take soldered IHS any time over TIM. I think all the CPU's I've had were soldered. And to date I never had issues. And I like to push them to the limit.


 The original 771/775 Core 2 Quads/Duo's still run like champs and were soldered if that's not longevity idk what is and those CPU's were plenty abused in terms of heat and voltage. Honestly Intel claims a lot of things that are misleading to cover their own bottom line less warranty issues to resolve and higher profit margins due excessive overclocking. Unless they are profiteering of OC they don't care about it or appreciate it particularly from a business standpoint.


----------



## trparky (Sep 23, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> The only trend we are really seeing is that Intel is eating up our OC headroom for us because the Core arch is nearing its end of life


That's my thinking as well. We've reached the end of what the Core Architecture can do. The fact that it's gone as long as it has (8 years since Nehalem) is amazing. Now it's time to go back to the drawing board and develop the next architecture.


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 23, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> The "that'll do" approach only benefits product makers, not consumers. By not criticizing it, you're basically encouraging it. Today it's TIM instead of solder, tommor they'll charge you extra to even get the TIM...


Why would i criticize something that works? Again, im overclocked to 4.5ghz daily and could do 4.8.... should i cry because i cant get to 4.9 because intel chose tim instead of solder?? If i am one of the 1% of the 1% who wants that extra 100mhz, ill delid. Simple.

Few people, even here give a hoot about that last 100 mhz.


----------



## RejZoR (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't want to delid my CPU. I had Athlon XP without any IHS and with re-mounting, I know the edges of the core were starting to chip off a bit.


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 23, 2017)

So put it back on... 

Dont split hairs and act stupid. Clearly we are talking swapping out the tim and placing the IHS back on...


----------



## cadaveca (Sep 23, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> To me that is 'nuff said' with regards to solder vs TIM. What remains is a discussion for the 1% that likes to seek out limits and I am not surprised they find them...



For those that like to seek out the limits, paste is better because you can then remove the metal in the way and go direct-die. IHS just gets in the way, so which is the truly the best enthusiast option? 

BTW, that's what it is, paste vs solder, since both are a TIM.


----------



## Kyuuba (Sep 24, 2017)

TIM solution works just fine, or hasn't it?
Move on as i have and many millions...
You can hate, yell, wish death to Intel but they are geniusess and you... know that, don't try to find the reason behind, you'll never find it, but be sure of this, IT WORKS!


----------



## hojnikb (Sep 24, 2017)

Vya Domus said:


> The issue with the Xbox 360 was the solder used in attaching the chip itself to the motherboard , not the solder used for the heatsink. They didn't even use solder for that.
> 
> Do some research and cut back the Intel damage control.


actually, neither of that is correct. The issue was defective chip substrate, where bumps inside simply disconnected. Heating  the chip to 130c or so "fixed" the issue temporary. People thought it was solder, because solder melts too.


----------



## Agony (Sep 24, 2017)

Can anyone prove , that TIM is better or Worst than Soldered for long time runs ? Or its just Intel Vs AMD again ???


----------



## Folterknecht (Sep 24, 2017)

Agony said:


> Can anyone prove , that TIM is better or Worst than Soldered for long time runs ? Or its just Intel Vs AMD again ???



For avg Joe it doesn't matter. If you are overclocking solder and liquid metal (when applied correctly) beat paste by a long shot.

Here you have thread with hundrets of examples for delided Intel CPUs (Ivybridge and onwards). including pictures. On some of these pictures you can clearly see that paste was drying out after only 1-2 year use ... you can imagine how this paste hinders OC.


----------



## dj-electric (Sep 24, 2017)

I can't tell you guys much, but the story is very much like Kaby Lake
In terms of heat, you guys gotta remember that larger area means greater spread.


----------



## Steevo (Sep 24, 2017)

RejZoR said:


> Why don't they use liquid metals then? Even if their production costs are bumped up by $5 per CPU because of it and they charge extra $20 bucks for that to the end user, I'm willing to accept that. When you're paying 500+ bucks for CPU, extra 20 is nothing. This becomes even more true when we step up to 1000 and 1500 bucks CPU's. Adding extra 20 bucks on top of that is nothing if this ensures near perfection.
> 
> If TIM is crap and solder is bound to crack, liquid metal is best of both worlds. It can't crack and it has superior heat transmission. Cheaper CPU's can use TIM as it doesn't really matter for their heat output, but with 6+ core monsters, I want best of the best.




Cost, conductivity, and the extra manufacturing steps. Not to mention the long term effect have not been studied, what if the liquid metal eats through anything on the CPU? What if some of it gets out of the die package and gets on aluminum components?

Too many variables to control.


----------



## TheGuruStud (Sep 24, 2017)

Steevo said:


> Cost, conductivity, and the extra manufacturing steps. Not to mention the long term effect have not been studied, what if the liquid metal eats through anything on the CPU? What if some of it gets out of the die package and gets on aluminum components?
> 
> Too many variables to control.



There's nothing to control. It only has to last long enough in a typical scenario, so their reputation isn't degraded (unlike most other industries where it's designed to last just outside warranty). They'll still last 10 years at minimum. (I'm also pretty sure they know how chemistry works, so they can predict long term use)

It's simply cost cutting, b/c they're not achieving their desired profit margin, ESPECIALLY with AMD on their ass. They know the fanbots will buy them no matter what, so they're going to abuse their stupidity.

AMD soldering them is irrefutable proof that it's A-OK to do. Companies will cut out a tiny resistor/capacitor or two on a PCB that aren't even a penny. Intel is definitely going to save this cash.


----------



## haxzion (Sep 24, 2017)

Even if i don't agree with the solder cracks theory,since i still rock a 2600k @4.5 on air as my second pc, i will go with it.
So let's say solder isn't safe for long term scenarios, when you buy a premium CPU and you pay a premium price for it they are OBLIGATED to use a really good quality tim instead of the trash they are using and this trash gets dry VERY fast.
Premium my @ss if you ask me.As a customer i don't care if this will cost them more or if they have to work more for it, cause i paid for all that.
7700k runs way too hot for my taste,yes its a decent CPU but 80C with a decent air cooler while gaming is unacceptable even during summer.
Why do i have to delid this trash and make it operate in a more decent temp range?
If TIM is the future then make it better or go back to solder or stop asking for premium prices.
peace


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 24, 2017)

The temps are decent... its 20c away from throttling, you are in a warm environment....

They arent obligated to do squat. You are paying for the unlocked multiplier and notably the fastest base and boost clocks.

It really doesnt dry out fast either. I know there are cases, but if it was a real problem wed see it a lot more.

I think we all agree wed like to see solder, but to call it an obligation and trash is pretty misplaced and dramatic.


----------



## haxzion (Sep 24, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> The temps are decent... its 20c away from throttling, you are in a warn environment....
> 
> They arent obligatedo do squat. You are paying for the unlocked multiplier and notably the fastest base and boost clocks.
> 
> ...



yes im kinda mad about it and you said i paid for an unlocked CPU so let me ask you this. How would i OC this cpu, what kind of OC +200-300mhz with a water solution?Would you feel comfortable with temps above 80C ?


----------



## cadaveca (Sep 25, 2017)

haxzion said:


> yes im kinda mad about it and you said i paid for an unlocked CPU so let me ask you this. How would i OC this cpu, what kind of OC +200-300mhz with a water solution?Would you feel comfortable with temps above 80C ?


EarthDog and I share views on this subject, so yeah, you get the same whether its' solder or paste.

For clocking enthusiasts that freeze their CPUs for benchmarking, solder can most definitely be an issue. For everyone else, paste is fine; solder performs better in most instances, but isn't really going to make or break an OC. Those few hundred MHz don't have much in tangible benefits, just like your worry about 80c+ temperatures. Like I know, 100C is crazy, because water boils at that temp, but your CPU will not. It's a mind-over-matter subject.

For me personally, the day Intel goes solder on mainstream CPUs, they've got issues. Their ONLY reason to use solder, as a chip maker, is to either appease the less than 10% of your user base that might be enthusiasts, of which only some care about this "problem"....

or they are like AMD, and need that solder, and your CPUs have no overhead.

Like, Intel can keep using paste forever if AMD doesn't actually provide them with real competition. Because right now, AMD still doesn't shine in the light that is Intel's per-core performance.


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## EarthDog (Sep 25, 2017)

haxzion said:


> yes im kinda mad about it and you said i paid for an unlocked CPU so let me ask you this. How would i OC this cpu, what kind of OC +200-300mhz with a water solution? Would you feel comfortable with temps above 80C ?


lol, yes. I run my stress tests to 90c...you should feel comfortable higher than 80c too... the more you know...

I also said you paid for a 600mhz bump in clockspeeds along with that unlocked multiplier. The paste really has nothing to do with it the price premium. Ive seen plenty of these on stock paste in 4.8-5ghz range. Sure, it needs a 2x120/140mm aio, but, its there. Putting solder on it MIGHT get you another 100-200mhz... not more in most cases.

Better than amd who, with solder, cant even get past their own boost clocks, yet people who arent using the cores, its one main advantage, are still buying them.


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## cadaveca (Sep 25, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> I also said you paid for a 600mhz bump in clockspeeds along with that unlocked multiplier.


You also paid for Intel to pre-OC that CPU to that added MHz allotment, too. THAT is what you pay for; the added performance that Intel pre-tested for you. People seem to miss this part as a whole. but whatevs.


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## Kissamies (Sep 25, 2017)

Folterknecht said:


> For avg Joe it doesn't matter. If you are overclocking solder and liquid metal (when applied correctly) beat paste by a long shot.
> 
> Here you have thread with hundrets of examples for delided Intel CPUs (Ivybridge and onwards). including pictures. On some of these pictures you can clearly see that paste was drying out after only 1-2 year use ... you can imagine how this paste hinders OC.


My 7600K's paste was already dry when I delidded it after using 5 days.



Spoiler


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## thesmokingman (Sep 25, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> Better than amd who, with solder, cant even get past their own boost clocks, yet people who arent using the cores, its one main advantage, are still buying them.



Seriously wtf does that have to do with AMD's process limitation?


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## EarthDog (Sep 25, 2017)

Its a different way of doing things. As dave expressed, amd is maxed out on process with solder (and still able to be temp limited on air). Intel uses tim and allows for enough headroom to overclock. Perhaps not to the silicons limit, but, an overclock nonetheless.


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## Kissamies (Sep 25, 2017)

AMD's process is stuck with the ~4GHz barrier. At least they have still something competive for a long time.


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## cadaveca (Sep 25, 2017)

9700 Pro said:


> My 7600K's paste was already dry when I delidded it after using 5 days.



That's not "dried out". That is how it is, every time. You see, there is no "drying out" of this paste because there is nothing to "dry"... yes, small bits of oil may separate, but this compound is designed so that wouldn't be that much of an issue. That's why it looks "dry"... because it is supposed to be. What's really cool is when you take these chips sub-zero and hear it literally "pop" off. 



9700 Pro said:


> AMD's process is stuck with the ~4GHz barrier. At least they have still something competive for a long time.


AMD isn't really competitive, but have only priced it so that the differences are something people are willing to accept. Remove cost from this, and AMD doesn't look that great. I mean, Ryzen is a huge improvement over past AMD CPU designs, there is no doubt, but that doesn't make them relevant... that's marketing's job.


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## Agony (Sep 25, 2017)

Folterknecht said:


> For avg Joe it doesn't matter. If you are overclocking solder and liquid metal (when applied correctly) beat paste by a long shot.
> 
> Here you have thread with hundrets of examples for delided Intel CPUs (Ivybridge and onwards). including pictures. On some of these pictures you can clearly see that paste was drying out after only 1-2 year use ... you can imagine how this paste hinders OC.


thanks that's what I was looking for


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## Jasmin Schmid (Sep 25, 2017)

danbert2000 said:


> Here, I think you missed this article I posted and we're all discussing. Maybe you want to actually read it this time. Why are you even bringing up electrical conductivity... The whole point is that cracking solder between the heatspreader and the processor will lead to hotspots on the processor and could kill it. I'd like to see you reflow the solder on a processor after the solder has begun to degrade.
> 
> http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/



You realize that the thermal cycles mentioned in the article are from -55°C to 125°C? Have you even read the article? How do such cycles translate to a normal user?


> Micro cracks occur after about 200 to 300 thermal cycles. A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes.



Normal cycles are pretty certainly fine and Intel is just maximising profit.


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## cadaveca (Sep 25, 2017)

Jasmin Schmid said:


> You realize that the thermal cycles mentioned in the article are from -55°C to 125°C? Have you even read the article? How do such cycles translate to a normal user?


My CPUs usually see -120c to +100c on a regular basis. Such is the life of a PC enthusiast into running benchmarks (there are many of this type of user, but still a small-ish number compared to any other PC users). With these bigger CPUs, they pull so much power that you get cold cold, then load it up, and temps can go almost positive. Then maybe you get coldbug, and you need to heat up the pot until it boots, and often for me that is in the positive numbers, although I must digress, not 125C. That's other testing, usually on water.

It'll be interesting to see how these unreleased CPUs do when they get released compared to the X299 chips, for sure.


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## TravisRyno (Feb 28, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I agree
> 
> That's solder used in a different use case ,and solder dries out, all of it does , eventually, but if soldered poorly electrical connections can deteriorate fast , but thats fixable sometimes via reflow , I've had jobs doing just that.
> Soldered heatsink is purely for thermal not electric conductivity and you ares so wrong it hurts.



Y'all are big solder fans i gotta say.... I think the point is #1)Intel can hit its target fine as-is, and #2)with liquid metal now available it basically gives you the option. Then #3) there's the practical impossibility of repairing a degraded solder chip-one example of durability is not representative, though I imagine most would last. ("Most" may not be enough though considering #3) Also, and potentially the biggest reason is the complex method of soldering required may reduce yields significantly-we just don't know (it seems) -so why do it if they are already ahead of the competition with a particular generation?

...It would be interesting to look back and see if the times Intel did solder were when AMD's chip had been ahead. (Thats why I figured AMD's new 16core Cow-Tipper is soldered)



Jasmin Schmid said:


> You realize that the thermal cycles mentioned in the article are from -55°C to 125°C? Have you even read the article? How do such cycles translate to a normal user?
> 
> 
> Normal cycles are pretty certainly fine and Intel is just maximising profit.



Everyone maximizes profit. At the end of the day thats what you do.
...You have to because you never know whats coming. Margins can be tiny, 5% profit is standard in most mfg. (though idk about intel, but on average), so 1 bad year of half the revenue takes 10 normal years of profit to ameliorate...Hence why everyone is always after profit..

Even the tiniest gain in yields is reason enough for Intel. (The CPU soldering process is a complex one of relatively exotic, layered, & hard to manage materials)


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 28, 2018)

TravisRyno said:


> Y'all are big solder fans i gotta say.... I think the point is #1)Intel can hit its target fine as-is, and #2)with liquid metal now available it basically gives you the option. Then #3) there's the practical impossibility of repairing a degraded solder chip-one example of durability is not representative, though I imagine most would last. ("Most" may not be enough though considering #3) Also, and potentially the biggest reason is the complex method of soldering required may reduce yields significantly-we just don't know (it seems) -so why do it if they are already ahead of the competition with a particular generation?
> 
> ...It would be interesting to look back and see if the times Intel did solder were when AMD's chip had been ahead. (Thats why I figured AMD's new 16core Cow-Tipper is soldered)
> 
> ...


Firstly I think you need not have necroed this thread but your points replied are.

1 there's a few dealing with high heat levels and complaining on here sooo , also they limit your performance via such things.

2 liquid metal ,nahhh because shorts and it stays liquid and can flow out of position.

3 if a cpu is soldered it will need no maintenance , there's not much to fix and no one does , they last beyond their usefulness.

Hope that helps.


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