# Need help planning an upgrade!



## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm planning to upgrade my PC, however due to it being a pre-built (I got it about 4 years ago), the upgrade has some limitations. 

1st limitation is: It has to work with a 380w PSU.
2nd limitation is: It has to be a micro atx (9.6" x 9.6"); Because of case size.
3rd limitation is the $330 budget.

Parts I'm looking to upgrade are the video card, Mobo, CPU, and RAM. I prefer the AM3 socket (because of I plan to upgrade the processor again later)  


Thanks! Also if anyone has any info on migrating a HDD with windows xp installed on it to a new pc head over to my other topic here: http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=101274


Thanks!


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## Zoelef (Aug 13, 2009)

$120 - Gigabyte GA-MA785G-US2H + 4 GB G.Skill DDR2-1066
$66 - Athlon II X2 245
$65 - Sapphire HD 4670 512MB

Subtotal: $251

The 4670 isn't the most powerful video card but you'll have plenty of headroom with an older 380w PSU. The HD 4770 also warrants consideration; Newegg's cheapest one costs $45 more than the Sapphire 4670 and performs about 55% better than the 4670.

Edit: Overclocking: I would upgrade the GPU and not the CPU so we can minimize wattage right now and upgrade from Athlon II to Phenom II when appropriate.


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## overclocking101 (Aug 13, 2009)

I agree with Zoelef but instead of the 4670 grab the 4770 as it will yeild better results OR grab a better cpu but either way both will be good upgrades. I do have a question why not save up $200-$300 more and buy a completely new system, I.E. new psu and case as well?


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 13, 2009)

overclocking101 said:


> I agree with Zoelef but instead of the 4670 grab the 4770 as it will yeild better results OR grab a better cpu but either way both will be good upgrades. I do have a question why not save up $200-$300 more and buy a completely new system, I.E. new psu and case as well?



I will more than likely buy a new case and psu later.  

thanks Zoelef, the Mobo you listed is exactly what I was looking for.

Edit: For the price of the 4770 I might as well buy a Sapphire HD 4830


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## Zoelef (Aug 13, 2009)

YinYang.ERROR said:


> Edit: For the price of the 4770 I might as well buy a Sapphire HD 4830



The 4830's problem isn't its price, but that it sucks up 25-40 watts more than either the 4670 or the 4770. Since your power supply isn't a new 80 PLUS one, I'd pass on the 4830. If you can't decide, your onboard HD 4200 may be an improvement on the X1300 XT, so ride that onboard chip until the 5xx0 generation debuts...

Also, the 785G I listed motherboard is a MicroATX version; if that's not compatible with your case, let me know.


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## Mussels (Aug 13, 2009)

my advice: buy a new case and PSU first, and dont bother moving the XP install. reinstall it - moves never go well


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## livehard (Aug 13, 2009)

You do know a system with a 4890 pulls like 320 watts? You could get the CPU and Mobo zoelef suggested and a 4870, be under your budget and PSU restrictions, but probably out of your case. I like Mussels' suggestion.


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## Mussels (Aug 13, 2009)

my concern is the quality and age of his PSU - if its a random generic and not something decent like an FSP OEM unit, it could well pop on something like a 4870.

he says its four years old, so it'd be around the 20-30% degraded mark if it was heavily used, and based on that age i'd be surprised if it had any better than a single 16A rail for 12 volt.


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## Wile E (Aug 13, 2009)

Mussels said:


> my concern is the quality and age of his PSU - if its a random generic and not something decent like an FSP OEM unit, it could well pop on something like a 4870.



Yep. PSU is where to spend the most money. One that blows can kill every single part in the system.

My suggestion is also PSU and case first. A doubt a 4 year old OEM 380w is going to be happy on a 4870.


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## livehard (Aug 13, 2009)

Yeah, I forgot about the rails. I factored in the aging and then some. I hate rails. I did say I liked your suggestion the best though, Mussels.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 13, 2009)

The PSU is 2 years old, I upgraded it a while ago. It is made by Raidmax.


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 13, 2009)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138138 - Mobo - $65 - $55 after MIR

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820144254 - Ram - $50.49

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103688 - CPU - $61

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102770 - HD4850 - $100

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703017 - PCP&C 420W -$50+ ship


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## livehard (Aug 13, 2009)

+1


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 15, 2009)

Thanks everyone, I think I will upgrade my Case and PSU first. (recomended by Mussels)

I was wondering if this is a good Case and PSU?

PSU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341012&Tpk=500W Stealth Xstream Psu

Case - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042


Edit: Will Video card prices drop by mid November?


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## kurosagi01 (Aug 15, 2009)

for extra $15 i would get the 450w corsair psu than the 500w ocz,it has single 12v rail which is much better than 2 12v.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139003


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 15, 2009)

kurosagi01 said:


> for extra $15 i would get the 450w corsair psu than the 500w ocz,it has single 12v rail which is much better than 2 12v.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139003



How is it much better?(I'm still learning a bit about PSUs) Also I'm trying to keep the price down (While still having a good PSU that supports 450w+), and Corsair is not really good at that.


Also, I found this combo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.216930
Which really helps with a $45 savings. ($30 instant + $15 combo)


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## LittleLizard (Aug 15, 2009)

The case is pretty good for its price and the psu has a decent 12v rail.

Go with it.


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## LittleLizard (Aug 15, 2009)

THIS combo and some cheap ddr3 and you will be good to go


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## Mussels (Aug 16, 2009)

rails on PSU's arent additive - lets say your video card has two PCI-E plugs, and one is on rail 1, and one is on rail 2 of your PSU.

That means your CPU, ram, hard drives, PCI-E slot power and everything else is off one rail, with just hte video card plugs off rail 2 - if rail 1 runs short, the PC will crash or shut down. it cant draw power off rail 2, to free up power on rail 1.

on a single rail PSU, you dont have to worry about balancing it out so you tend to get less issues.

The corsair 450W matches many 500-550W PSU's in specs anyway - its a great PSU.
I'm not a huge fan of the antec basiqs, they're great for low power machines but they dont come anywhere near a corsair or OCZ in quality and reliability.


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## LittleLizard (Aug 16, 2009)

Mussels said:


> rails on PSU's arent additive - lets say your video card has two PCI-E plugs, and one is on rail 1, and one is on rail 2 of your PSU.
> 
> That means your CPU, ram, hard drives, PCI-E slot power and everything else is off one rail, with just hte video card plugs off rail 2 - if rail 1 runs short, the PC will crash or shut down. it cant draw power off rail 2, to free up power on rail 1.
> 
> ...



in fact antec is pretty good and the basiq looks like crap but is a good psu. but yes, i agree with you that the corsair is a better choice BUT remember we are working with a tight budget


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## Mussels (Aug 16, 2009)

true, but since he has a tight budget now one assumes the same will be so in the future, the corsair saves the need to upgrade again later and has a longer warranty as well.

OCZ stealthX 500: 2x18A    
Parts  	3 years limited
Labor 	1 year limited

antec basiq: 2x18A          
3 years limited

Corsair: 1x33A
They dont say it on the newegg page, but corsair has a 5 year warranty.

the OCZ and the antec match up, on a budget sure, go the antec.
the corsair still outdoes them severely on the rails, as well as having the longest warranty.


FYI, if you hit "returns and rebates" the corsair has a $15 MIR on atm.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 16, 2009)

Mussels said:


> true, but since he has a tight budget now one assumes the same will be so in the future, the corsair saves the need to upgrade again later and has a longer warranty as well.
> 
> OCZ stealthX 500: 2x18A
> Parts  	3 years limited
> ...



But is 2 rails really that much worst? 

The only brands that seem to have a single rail are Corsair and Cooler Master. 

I would gladly get one if it was within budget, but I'm not going to be doing any SLI or crossfire; So again does it really make that much of a difference?



EDIT:
I may for $140 ($120 after MIB) get the antec 300, and a Corsair 550w (I would need 500w if I plan on upgrading to a Phenom II and a HD 5xxx later right?). Might as well get a good PSU if I'm going to keep it for a while.

Price is a killer though, but it is only $10 more for the 550w over the 450w.


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## kurosagi01 (Aug 16, 2009)

if your not going do any crossfire or sli,then by all means by a single rail psu,you are only going get a 4850 right?? the 450w corsair will easily power it with 32A while the ocz 500w only has 18A if you use one rail and the other 18A rail is just sticking out..and i've bought the ocz stealthxstream it doesn't have a lot of cables so if you have a lot of things to plug in i wouldn't reconmend it at all,but by all means check how many molex and sata connectors you are using in your system..the 450w has much more cables than the ocz.

the 450w corsair can easily power a Phenom II,it could probably power the HD5xxx series,they would make mid-range cards aswell you know like the 4850,4830 and 4770.
corsair psu has greater potential..as mussel said it is much better than some 550w.
if you want buy a 550w then get the corsair 550w and the NZXT Beta case which looks nicer than the antec 300 and you wouldn't need spend a lot of money buying load of 120mm fans for the antec 300
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146055


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## Mussels (Aug 16, 2009)

YinYang.ERROR: i did explain in a previous post about multiple rail PSU's




			
				mussels said:
			
		

> rails on PSU's arent additive - lets say your video card has two PCI-E plugs, and one is on rail 1, and one is on rail 2 of your PSU.
> 
> That means your CPU, ram, hard drives, PCI-E slot power and everything else is off one rail, with just hte video card plugs off rail 2 - if rail 1 runs short, the PC will crash or shut down. it cant draw power off rail 2, to free up power on rail 1.
> 
> on a single rail PSU, you dont have to worry about balancing it out so you tend to get less issues.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 16, 2009)

thanks for your help everyone!

I'm thinking if I use the NZXT Beta for my case I can fit a Corsair 550w PSU (550w for later upgrades) into my budget. My main problem with the Corsair 450w was the price for only a 450w.


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## LittleLizard (Aug 16, 2009)

i dont remember who said it but it is well known that corsair in fact underrates it psu. so, lets say u buy the 450w, in fact it can pull 500w without problem


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## Mussels (Aug 17, 2009)

i'm the one who says corsaid underrates their PSU's 









add the wattages up, and its 548W


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 17, 2009)

Haha, That is kinda funny. I'm going with the 550w Corsair, Just to future proof my PSU.

Thanks Everyone!


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## Mussels (Aug 17, 2009)

just make sure the corsair you're getting only has a single 12V rail, some of their older models have more than one.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 17, 2009)

Mussels said:


> just make sure the corsair you're getting only has a single 12V rail, some of their older models have more than one.



Yup it does. 100 watts more for +$10 (after the MIR)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139004


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## Mussels (Aug 17, 2009)

for $10 more, hell yeah 


they label that as a VX, but VS series have blue labels normally.

Mines a TX with that same label, so i assume its actually got the same internal manufacturer as my 750W.


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## Wile E (Aug 17, 2009)

Mussels said:


> just make sure the corsair you're getting only has a single 12V rail, some of their older models have more than one.



Doesn't matter. Single is not better than multiple rails. 
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3990


			
				Jonny Guru said:
			
		

> The bottom line is, for 99% of the folks out there single vs. multiple +12V rails is a NON ISSUE. It's something that has been hyped up by marketing folks on BOTH SIDES of the fence. Too often we see mis-prioritized requests for PSU advice: Asking "what single +12V rail PSU should I get" when the person isn't even running SLI! Unless you're running a plethora of Peltiers in your machine, it should be a non-issue assuming that the PSU has all of the connectors your machine requires and there are no need for "splitters" (see Example 1 in the previous bullet point).
> 
> The criteria for buying a PSU should be:
> 
> ...



And Corsair multi rail psus behave like singles anyway. You can run all 12v wattage thru a single rail with them.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 17, 2009)

Damn it lol, you guys are making it hard as hell to decide on a PSU.

I kinda like this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017
Because it is OCZ, it is modular (It is always nice to have less cables in the case), and it is hell of a lot cheaper than the Corsair. 

but what is with the: ATX12V V2.2 / EPS12V type?
What is EPS12V? And will it work with the NZXT Beta case?


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## Wile E (Aug 17, 2009)

YinYang.ERROR said:


> Damn it lol, you guys are making it hard as hell to decide on a PSU.
> 
> I kinda like this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017
> Because it is OCZ, it is modular (It is always nice to have less cables in the case), and it is hell of a lot cheaper than the Corsair.
> ...



EPS12V and ATX12V will both work in that case.

The Corsair is still the much better psu tho. It's just that the number of rails isn't what makes it better, it's the Corsair's far superior rating system and build quality that make it better. Number of rails doesn't matter.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 17, 2009)

What exactly do you mean when you say "rating system"?

I'm still having a really hard time figuring all this out. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is:
Why is the Corsair so good? And why is it better than the OCZ? I understand build quality, but isn't OCZ build quality good too?


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## kurosagi01 (Aug 17, 2009)

it is good quality too,but many people reconmend corsair because they are more reliable in terms of built and performance,many people reconmend it because of its life-time warrenty and number of times not many of them have minor faults like DOA(dead on arrival).
I went for the same psu as you and i had a DOA which made me gutted and dissappointed with OCZ so i asked for a switch to the corsair 400w is more powerful with the 12v rail giving 30Amps and the build quality is much better.


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## Wile E (Aug 17, 2009)

YinYang.ERROR said:


> What exactly do you mean when you say "rating system"?
> 
> I'm still having a really hard time figuring all this out.
> 
> ...



Corsair rates their psus at 50C operating temps, and the rating on the box (450w, 550w, etc.) is the continuous output that psu can put out at 50C. Most companies put the peak wattage (amount the psu can put out for a very short amount of time before failing) on the box, and only test their psus at 30C. There can be as much as a 25% loss in output ability from 30C to 50C alone, let alone the differences between peak ratings, and constant ratings.

The Corsair is worth every penny you pay for them. They're build quality is that much better then the OCZ. The OCZ is not generic in quality, by any means, but it pales in comparison to the Corsair units. The 550W Corsair puts out more power at higher temps than the OCZ, even tho OCZ puts a higher rating on their box.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 17, 2009)

Alright, I'm think I'll still stick with the 550w Corsair. I just wish it was modular.

As far as case wise, I'm going to hold out for the NZXT Beta EVO. Looks much better than the Beta for cable management.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

wile E: you're reading too far into my advice 


Given a choice in the same price range, go a single rail over a multi rail.

its not even that multi rails are that bad, its just that so many of them have rails that are 20A or under - and i can vouch for that being bad, cause when i ran off a 600W gameX with 4x20A, i could make the the OCP kick in with a single 4870 if i ran furmark - it would overload one rail, and poof, goodbye.

its future proofing in a way, because over time the PSU's degrade - if you dont have to worry about load balancing, it matters less.

as for corsair multi rail PSU's... dunno how they work. my OCZ was technically one rail split into four, and its OCP would still give me issues if one rail went too high.


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## Wile E (Aug 18, 2009)

Mussels said:


> wile E: you're reading too far into my advice
> 
> 
> Given a choice in the same price range, go a single rail over a multi rail.
> ...


OCP never kicks in on a Corsair psu. lol. They are sold as 3 rail psus, but are single rail in reality.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

well there we have it, corsair are exempt again because they are awesome and cool


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 18, 2009)

I heard that the Corsairs make a bunch of noise when a video card is put into high use, is this true?

I'm still debating between the Corsair and OCZ.
On one had I got the Corsair, single rail, well built, and longer warranty. (Leaning toward this one)
On the other hand I got the OCZ, 600w, module, and price.

honestly I would buy a Corsair 620w if it was in the budget... but it is not.


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## Mussels (Aug 18, 2009)

my corsair only goes loud with two 4870's and a heavily OC'd CPU at synthetic load (furmark/linpack, not with games) - you'll have no trouble with noise.


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## Wile E (Aug 18, 2009)

YinYang.ERROR said:


> I heard that the Corsairs make a bunch of noise when a video card is put into high use, is this true?
> 
> I'm still debating between the Corsair and OCZ.
> On one had I got the Corsair, single rail, well built, and longer warranty. (Leaning toward this one)
> ...



I never heard the fan on my 620W Corsair with an OC'ed  and water-cooled quad and OCed 2900XT. I don't think your system is likely to push the psu hard enough for you to hear the fan get loud.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 19, 2009)

And how do you guys feel about cooler master PSUs?
More particularly this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171036

Because I think I like this combo if that PSU is good. 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.231293


By the way thank you so much, I have really learned a lot about PSUs.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 19, 2009)

New Newegg sales is out you can pick up a 240 for $55 shipped plus ddr3 is on sale and you could get an am3 board for $70 i'll do a link thing here in a minute
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...081809-_-ProcessorsDesktops-_-LC2C-_-19103688 
with promo code EMCLWMW26 $56
mobo $85 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135241
mem $75 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820178238 or$50  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231150  and this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152028
and this is on sale for $90 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...C-IGNEFL081809-_-VideoCards-_-LC5C-_-14102824
Given the choice I'd do this with  2gb mem this cpu the 4850 and the psu and it fits your budget


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## LittleLizard (Aug 19, 2009)

YinYang.ERROR said:


> And how do you guys feel about cooler master PSUs?
> More particularly this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171036
> 
> Because I think I like this combo if that PSU is good.
> ...



that psu looks pretty good and the case that comes in the combo is the hell of a case


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## Mussels (Aug 19, 2009)

i'm not a fan of coolermaster PSU's. they tend to have old designs that dont work well - their top models nowadays are about as good as a gameXstream 600W which is a 3-4 year old design.

spend the extra and get something like a corsair or antec.


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## bigtye (Aug 19, 2009)

Mussels said:


> my corsair only goes loud with two 4870's and a heavily OC'd CPU at synthetic load (furmark/linpack, not with games) - you'll have no trouble with noise.



Yeah plus one to this, I have two corsair 620HX and a corsair 750TX and never hear either of them. All three have been great since I got them, one is in my gaming rig, another in a reception desk and another in my data crunching, music playing, general purpose rig.

Tye


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