# Need amplifier advice



## Jayell (Mar 11, 2017)

I have a denon x-4000 and have several speakers hooked up including my polk monitor 70's. I am wanting to put an amp behind my denon that can push my polks and free up some power to my other speakers. I was told by best buy that i need a preamp but i think they are wrong. I am just wanting to spend a few hundred, not a thousand, to get a 4 channel amp that pushes about 150 per. My questions are, do i need a preamp or regular amp? Is it just an rca out from my denon into the amp rca input to get it to work?
 Also, does anyone have any suggestions on what amp to use?


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## Jetster (Mar 11, 2017)

So 125 watts per channel is not enough?


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## DeathtoGnomes (Mar 11, 2017)

No you dont need a pre-amp, your Denon does it all. If you really need to up your amperage, contact Denon. They might have an amplifier that you can stack and that matches up aesthetically.


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## Jayell (Mar 11, 2017)

Jetster said:


> So 125 watts per channel is not enough?


Nope


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## EarthDog (Mar 11, 2017)

Not sure how an amp "frees up" wattage for "other speakers" on the same receiver. Your receiver is xxxW x however many channels. You don't get more wattage taking other loads off of it.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

Depends on how loud you want to play. 125 watts into the Polk 70 should give you plenty of volume they seem quite efficient from the specification sheet. You definitely do not need a pre-amp as that is used when you have a power amplifier.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> Not sure how an amp "frees up" wattage for "other speakers" on the same receiver. Your receiver is xxxW x however many channels. You don't get more wattage taking other loads off of it.



Because those multi channel amps are all shit at most. Their limiting point is the trafo itself. Not the B class output stage. Shared current as normaly in 5.1 all speakers are not used, so it is considered and gimped.

For speakers like those 125W is not enough. They are not bad nor stellar. Needs proper pairing. Dedicated amp is a way to go...


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

The amplifier is rated at 125 W continuous operation on the two front channels into an 8 Ohm load. There should be more than enough power for the Polk speakers, unless it is a huge room and insane listening levels. You can use the pre-outs on the Denon and get a power amplifier if you want.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

Frederik S said:


> The amplifier is rated at 125 W continuous operation on the two front channels into an 8 Ohm load. There should be more than enough power for the Polk speakers, unless it is a huge room and insane listening levels. You can use the pre-outs on the Denon and get a power amplifier if you want.



Those speakers are 250W... you are underdriving them, thus the amp runs on max always, overheats, clips, distorts and eventually will shut down. I have to remind you that speakers and amps need to be paired. As we see the OP already cranks up his denon so a power sag occurs. And that's the main issue here.

Nobody asks you for his desired/needed power for the room size.

Dennon apples are not the same as Polk Audio also for sure. Denon weights around 12kg, minus chassis and boards and elements, it means ~ 700W trafo, AB class roughly 600W on SEVEN channels + Woofer? Hanging 500W at the front... well... too much.

OP should really answer about the real application, and why he needs more than two speakers, that would narrow out exactly what kind of amplifier he needs.


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## EarthDog (Mar 13, 2017)

Thier peak INPUT wattage is 275W.

When the volume isn't turned up on the the receiver, the amp isnt using all of its output. Only when the volume is up all the way would it use 125W. Not sure where you are getting at, but this 250W ea channel thing is for the receiver when the Polk 70's are hooked up. The sub has nothing to do with the amp since it isn't a powered channel, typically. Is it here?

The OP should be able to use preamp out from the receiver assuming it has it... and i expect a $1K recover will... and get an amp. But it won't free up wattage for the other channels...at least not a noticeable amount I wouldn't imagine.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

There is no such thing as under driving them. If you can get them to play loud enough without distortion you have enough power. 125 W into the 8 Ohm load assuming normal speaker efficiency gives you plenty of volume. 

If you turn up the amplifier to max it will output 125 W into 8 Ohm, if it is too quiet get a bigger amplifier.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

Frederik S said:


> it will output 125 W into 8 Ohm, if it is too quiet get a bigger amplifier.



You fail to read... it is in two speaker setup @8ohm, hanging up all will almost halve the power... that's the issue and what the OP is asking around.


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## EarthDog (Mar 13, 2017)

What? Where did he say that? It's 125W /ch at 8Ohm...these are front L and R channels... 

Also, 150W isn't going to be much louder than 125W really anyway. Seems pointless without getting aN amp which can output more than 150W


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

There is nothing in the specification sheet that would suggest that the amplifier cannot handle 5 channels at max load under normal circumstances. From the reviews of the amplifier you can see that people are getting harder to drive speakers to be loud enough without running it at max, also in 5.1 setups.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> What? Where did he say that





Jayell said:


> free up some power to my other speaker



And Denon states that 125W is at 2chan setup, it uses more it has less power... just as most AVR's does... BTW I think this AVR is capable of 9.1, it is designed to have a additional amp actually... nor that I've seen 9.1 content anywhere much lol.

And don't push him, he already told us that he needs more, no lecturing about it is enough.



Jetster said:


> So 125 watts per channel is not enough?





Jayell said:


> Nope





Frederik S said:


> There is nothing in the specification sheet that would suggest that the amplifier cannot handle 5 channels at max load under normal circumstances. From the reviews of the amplifier you can see that people are getting harder to drive speakers to be loud enough without running it at max, also in 5.1 setups.



I did my simple math as you saw... in AB class amp it simply cannot be otherwise. I don't care for the tampered and subjective consumer device reviews really, imaginary friends.

Well maybe you can tell me what kind of magic can turn 670W eating from the mains(as stated on the device) running AB class + CPU/DAC/PREAMP/MSC into Six speakers running 125W? Mhm? Okay let it be... even quad setup?


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## EarthDog (Mar 13, 2017)

Ferrum.. stop sitting hairs on the correct wattage and how it splits it up. You know darn well that isn't my/the point.

Clearly he needs it louder, but your points aren't making much sense to me with the "500W for the speakers" and "halving the power" etc..

Point is.. dude just needs to figure out if his receiver has preamp outs and if so, get an amp....preferably one with more than a mere 25W more than he is complaining about.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

Is it "nope" as in not loud enough, or no as in some "hifi guy" told you you are under driving them. 

The only case where using pre-outs to a power amplifier helps is if the power supply for the receiver is under dimensioned, which does not seem to be the case when looking at specifications.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

Frederik S said:


> some "hifi guy" told you you are under driving them.



Your denial of such thing amazes me... actually the term comes form PA segment where it is a daily occurrence, the thing he tries to do is very PA, as he seeks for power and doesn't care for else, and has nothing to do with some crapped HIFI I don't do also.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

What does under driving do? It is not telling you anything. 

If the amplifier is distorting or not producing enough power say that. Which is why is all boils down to volume. If the amplifier is distorting at his preferred volume setting then get a different amplifier.

The amplifier should drive an 8 Ohm load without distorting as it is designed for that load.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

Frederik S said:


> The amplifier should drive an 8 Ohm load without distorting as it is designed for that load.



Don't double post, please.

Running on 100% max for a longer period kills any device I know these days, these things are designed without a reserve. This time the OP is trying to to cut a tree with a foldable knife. Wanting to split a hair of power more? That's 125W at 1K... so at bottom 20-20K it really is some 100W per channel. No wonder someone complains.

Clipping is still a casual thing, don't you see simple LED's indicating on most PA devices? I wonder what for are those if such thing doesn't exist as under powering... really I am amazed mate, no offense, everything is fine with me, I am just not pushing my opinion as each person needs his own thing in such matter as audio, it ain't a SMPS power supply.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

Why do you assume that he is utilizing even close to what the amplifier is capable of outputting? The 250 W input rating is a max number given by a manufacturer which the design can endure. This ensures that the drivers do not exceed their max design excursion and that the cross-over is not harmed. 

You do understand that 100 W can give you more than enough volume overhead if the load is an 8 Ohm, 87 dB/W design. At a 100 W you would get 107 dB. Which should be more than enough for most people.


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## EarthDog (Mar 13, 2017)

Ferrum Master said:


> Don't double post, please.
> 
> Running on 100% max for a longer period kills any device I know these days, these things are designed without a reserve. This time the OP is trying to to cut a tree with a foldable knife. Wanting to split a hair of power more? That's 125W at 1K... so at bottom 20-20K it really is some 100W per channel. No wonder someone complains.
> 
> Clipping is still a casual thing, don't you see simple LED's indicating on most PA devices?


Who's running it at max??? What are you talking about? Your posts here have just been really nonsensical to me... sorry.

This train of misinformation simply needs to stop.

The OP simply needs to check if his receiver has a preamp out. If so, run those to a 2x150W+ (again, I encourage more) amp which takes preamp level input. Then it can be louder on his polks. The rest of the system WILL REMAIN UNCHANGED by this move.

Amd for the record, the receiver will do up to 7.1. Here is a line from the pdf: 





> 7.1 channel + 2 channel pre-outs for additional stereo amplifier and speakers


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 13, 2017)

Frederik S said:


> Why do you assume that he is utilizing even close to what the amplifier is capable of outputting? The 250 W input rating is a max number given by a manufacturer which the design can endure. This ensures that the drivers do not exceed their max design excursion and that the cross-over is not harmed.
> 
> You do understand that 100 W can give you more than enough volume overhead if the load is an 8 Ohm, 87 dB/W design. At a 100 W you would get 107 dB. Which should be more than enough for most people.



Are you still trying to teach the man what he needs to do? That's the derail of this thread and that's what not the OP asks. It is not enough for him.

So again... I must repeat myself again... Denon Apples (wattage) are not the same as Polk audio... Polk actually is funny, 275W is not the rated speaker power, but recommended amplifier maximum it handles per channel, what kind of power (apples or oranges) RMS or old school sustained sinus, I cannot find any data sheet, for poor products they don't do that as they cannot sustain same quality and SPL range due to different parts. I don't believe in those specs actually, considering the complaints from the OP also.

This shitty Denon is prone to overheating as such. THIS. Also here. So running it on daily 3hour max? Yes it will die.

You understand that 100W may be okay with you. Maybe he wan't to put the music and go to work in his garage? Why are you judging, I cannot get that? It ain't some wicked church here.

Get a proper amp. Don't burn the Denon as it is an overpriced and buggy gimmick for a home theater where it actually should work fine.



EarthDog said:


> Who's running it at max??? What are you talking about?
> 
> This train of misinformation simply needs to stop.



Obviously if it is not enough for him, he runs it on the eleven all the time.


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## Mindweaver (Mar 13, 2017)

Guys you have given the OP a lot to think about. Let's calm down and see if the OP has any questions to any of the help that has already been given... and yes this is a warning.


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## EarthDog (Mar 13, 2017)

Ferrum Master said:


> It is not enough for him.


Truth. Frederick seems to gloss over that point... otherwise, he's spot on.



> So again... I must repeat myself again... Denon Apples (wattage) are not the same as Polk audio... Polk actually is funny, 275W is not the rated speaker power, but recommended amplifier maximum it handles per channel, what kind of power (apples or oranges) RMS or old school sustained sinus, I cannot find any data sheet, for poor products they don't do that as they cannot sustain same quality and SPL range due to different parts. I don't believe in those specs actually, considering the complaints from the OP also.


Well aware the 275 value I mentioned earlier is the max for the speaker. We are also well aware that its 125W for the L and R channels. In surround, it likely breaks it down to less. Indeed. Not relevant... said that earlier...



> This shitty Denon is prone to overheating as such. THIS. Also here. So running it on daily 3hour max? Yes it will die....
> 
> ....Obviously if it is not enough for him, he runs it on the eleven all the time.


So, you think the OP just sits there with it cranked all the time.

I hear what you are saying, you are right... he needs an amp (as I and others mentioned)...  but your information supporting it is erroneous (the 500W thing.. running it constantly "at 11"... the fact that it will change any output on the rest of the speakers in the system...etc).



Mindweaver said:


> Guys you have given the OP a lot to think about. Let's calm down and see if the OP has any questions to any of the help that has already been given... and yes this is a warning.


Shoot... I didn't refresh.... 

I digress.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

I was trying to figure out what he meant by not enough. Not enough volume, not enough bass, not enough detail, there are many ways a system can be not enough.


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## Jayell (Mar 13, 2017)

Jayell said:


> I have a denon x-4000 and have several speakers hooked up including my polk monitor 70's. I am wanting to put an amp behind my denon that can push my polks and free up some power to my other speakers. I was told by best buy that i need a preamp but i think they are wrong. I am just wanting to spend a few hundred, not a thousand, to get a 4 channel amp that pushes about 150 per. My questions are, do i need a preamp or regular amp? Is it just an rca out from my denon into the amp rca input to get it to work?
> Also, does anyone have any suggestions on what amp to use?



I am having to turn my denon up to 40's and 50's in volume to watch a movie or tv show. I meant to say 200 to 250 watt amp with four channels. Each polk speaker has two inputs, i am assuming one terminal powers the tweeter and the other the woofers, so i might only need a 2 channel amp. I have two bose 301's beside the polks and a bic america 6 1/2 center speaker. My denon has shut off a few times after turning it up pretty lowd and just want to make sure i have great sound and not damage my denon. I was hoping that someone would tell me about a specifc amp that only costs a few hundred that would do the job. I didnt want to start an arguement about it. Can anyone tell me a specific amp and also if i need a 2 or 4 channel amp?


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## EarthDog (Mar 13, 2017)

Are you sure the cable box/input audio is turned up all the way? I have a 5.1 system with 100W /channel on about as efficient speakers. When watching a movie at THX levels, I need to turn it up to around 40-45 or so. No audible distortion or clipping. My speakers max input is 225W.

I believe a two channel amp is fine the speakers are just bi amplfied... but this is something that is out of my wheelhouse. I stay awy from bi-amp/wire


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## revin (Mar 13, 2017)

Have you ran the Polk's by them self?
Are you using 1 pair of 70's or ?
I presume you tried using A+B main output?
My VSX39TX will run all 4, two pairs of my 75t's at +10 even maxed out at +12 and it can be very loud  at those extreme volumes. Even my 4 modified CS9900E's will go there, but they don't sound as good as the 75t's.
Most multi channel have to give up somewhere to fit in a budget for buyers, just like graphic cards.
I'd look for an older receiver or amp to use from the Denon for the power output.
Just seen your last post, try the Polk's by them self on main LR channel. Just leave the speaker jumpers on doing bi-amp can lead to expensive issues.
See if there is any issue with how loud your trying to get. I can shut mine down if I load all 4 75t's on as  4ohm load at very high volume, it's by design not rated for that much output into the low load. That appears to be what has happened with you.
So you need to see if there is an issue with any of the speakers test them on the main output separately.
This is why manufacture's should not try to ply with the output number's giving the impression there is more power than actually is. They have spent a lot on copyrights an these so they all try to put in a "budget" model in the higher end line thus skimping out on other things like the output ect.


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## Frederik S (Mar 13, 2017)

Sounds like a thermal issue in the amplifier more than anything else. I do not know how old it is but maybe try and blow it free of dust and let it sit in a place where it has ventilation. You can do bi-amping the amplifier supports it and that would give you more power for the Polks. Bi-amping can both be done with or without external cross-over you will need to check the capability of both speaker and amplifier. 

I have had several lower end receivers that could play at above 80% more or less all day without issue, so your high-end Denon should definitely be capable of this as well.


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## m1dg3t (Mar 13, 2017)

Bi amp means just that, BI AMP. As in 2. The OP aint close to that. Maybe bi wire, but even then I'd just yank the solid jumper on the binding posts and replace it with 12/14g lamp cord, AKA: speaker wire. I don't think fancy cables is what OP is looking for.

Ferrum Master has given solid advice, AVR/HT receivers are grossly underrated. More channels driven with increased volume and the power/quality drops, because of the nature of the weak/cheap power supply being common to all in/outputs.

OP doesn't need a pre amp, even a used 2ch amp like an old Hafler should do wonders and pair well with those old Polks. Things with independent power rails and/or torroidal transformers are good.

Quality power (amplification) just enhances every aspect of listening.


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## revin (Mar 13, 2017)

m1dg3t said:


> grossly underrated.


Overrated as in not close to rated output.  some where I think I understood it clipped at 80 watts
Like as has been said these newer AVR have issue's since they have to fit a budget, so more frills means something else must be cut to save cost.
Very few now days have an output that can pushed hard and not suffer. They try to make them look good on paper, but in real world they under perform  more closer to rated output.


Frederik S said:


> Sounds like a thermal issue in the amplifier more than anything else


Indeed, thus testing the speakers as I posted to see if the unit can even perform at rated output [0db] with 2 channels.
Also may need to use a fan to cool it to see if that help's, overheating been an issue with them also. Marantz has some very similar setup, same issue.
From the looks of the inside only 1 rail to supply and take out the heat it will have the overheating issue more easily Not even a real heat sink.
Step up to the x4100 night and day difference.
X4000






X4100





As you can see the 4000 are not even directly connected to the heat sink.
Just the change of the way they design any op amp can make a world of difference.

My Pioneer, rated output pretty much the same. The shop found 48 volts from each rail side


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## Jayell (Mar 14, 2017)

Jayell said:


> I am having to turn my denon up to 40's and 50's in volume to watch a movie or tv show. I meant to say 200 to 250 watt amp with four channels. Each polk speaker has two inputs, i am assuming one terminal powers the tweeter and the other the woofers, so i might only need a 2 channel amp. I have two bose 301's beside the polks and a bic america 6 1/2 center speaker. My denon has shut off a few times after turning it up pretty lowd and just want to make sure i have great sound and not damage my denon. I was hoping that someone would tell me about a specifc amp that only costs a few hundred that would do the job. I didnt want to start an arguement about it. Can anyone tell me a specific amp and also if i need a 2 or 4 channel amp?


What about a pyle pt3300?


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## INSTG8R (Mar 14, 2017)

Jayell said:


> What about a pyle pt3300?


Yeah that's the kinda thing you're after if your wanting more power.


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## revin (Mar 14, 2017)

Jayell said:


> What about a pyle pt3300?


That will not be close to what you have available now. That would be good for party's ect, not for home cinema
If the 3300 watts is what you are looking, those power numbers for little price are again the play on the output ratings.
You unit should be working better than what is happing now.
Have you at least tried it with 2 channel to make sure there is not some issue with the speaker or the unit?
You would have better power from getting a used high output amp for couple hundred dollars. Check Craigslist for some local deals.

Have a look about how the power numbers can fool consumers.


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## revin (Mar 15, 2017)

@Jayell  Have you tried the speakers on the main L&R channels to see if it will jam now? That _should_  get close to as much volume as I obtain, but certainly it should not be shutting down.
If it can sustain the Polk's, then add the other set on "B" channel  and see if it can still reach 0db, or even over with all 4 then we can try to eliminate issue's by process the remaining setup
@Ferrum Master Where will his caps fall in for power capacity?


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## Jayell (Mar 15, 2017)

revin said:


> @Jayell  Have you tried the speakers on the main L&R channels to see if it will jam now? That _should_  get close to as much volume as I obtain, but certainly it should not be shutting down.
> If it can sustain the Polk's, then add the other set on "B" channel  and see if it can still reach 0db, or even over with all 4 then we can try to eliminate issue's by process the remaining setup
> @Ferrum Master Where will his caps fall in for power capacity?


Thanks


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## revin (Mar 15, 2017)

Jayell said:


> Thanks


There's a button for that. 
It's been asked a couple times for you to do the testing to try to determine what may be wrong.
Are you just only wanting to throw money after another power unit, or want to see if there is an issue?


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 15, 2017)

revin said:


> [USER=90058]@Ferrum Master Where will his caps fall in for power capacity?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amp is too young for that. They look fine. 12 000 uF for 600W is enough design wise. The problem lies within a mere transistor pair driving something big. The PSU/bridge and filtering part is done fine. Not Krell style, but fine.

Seconds as the volume gain is logarithimic for his next 3db he needs 50-100W of power just by doing basic math. We stated that this crap Denon doesn't have it what it takes to do so.

OP needs a simple old stereo amp. Garage sales are the best option for those. @Jetster always dig up some old gems.

Or simply take anything decent around 200W per channel.


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## revin (Mar 15, 2017)

Something like this 1980 @Ferrum Master  





I figured I'd get you to drool from the good ole days lol


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 15, 2017)

revin said:


> Something like this 1980 @Ferrum Master  I figured I'd get you to drool from the good ole days lol



I don't get a drool from these things, proper atheist not only in religion, but also electronics. I can only vouch for things I got in my hands or at least have some objective measurements, not some stupid subjective feelings about the sound like many audio equipment reviewers do and I disrespect those kind really, like preachers. I am an engineer not a consumer, I know what kind of mojo actually pure errors that cause distortion is needed to gain false perception of things... most often mistakes are - like airiness  = RF oscillation, rounded sound = voltage sag, mellow sound = pair harmonic distortion etc... If I wish I could fool around.

I do tube amps just because I can (years come and they will disappear at all, the real old NOS parts), not because I adore them, they are simply different for specific task aimed where it shines, not a daily driver. In audio each specific task needs proper equipment, there are no universal things that fits for all, you have to trade something to gain something, but you sacrifice something to gain it.

Seconds amplifier designs, the basics haven't changed mostly for 40 years except Class D and Gainclones. Basic math remains the same. Only thing that comes are more sturdy materials upon you can replace different circuit parts that often did compensations because of that.

That upper thing looks like a simple radio... I needs a lot of work to work again, not worth it, the PCB is very fragile, traces come off after repeated soldering.


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## revin (Mar 15, 2017)

Jeez Ferrum, it's the Pioneer 1980, one the best Receiver's ever made, but thing about the pic was the well abundant output section.
TBH I figured you would have shot off power numbers ect. 
I hadn't seen one since early to mid  80's.

Anyway............... Like @m1dg3t said some good ole psu's  there's what 275 real rated watts per channel look like even if it's old school.
This would give @Jayell something to think about getting an older power house. They are defiantly worthy.
In fact till this thread, I didn't truly appreciate just how worthy my unit was.  
As has been said, his unit should work far better so until he try's what's been posted, or states he just want's other unit ..............................................................................
FWIW your right it took some work but they got it upgraded and going again.





Back to looking on craigslist


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 15, 2017)

revin said:


> Jeez Ferrum, it's the Pioneer 1980, one the best Receiver's ever made, but thing about the pic was the well abundant output section.
> TBH I figured you would have shot off power numbers ect.
> 
> Back to looking on craigslist



I know what it is... Over-glorified radio... and it really needs a lot of work... the most problematic thing with those old things is transformer mechanical hum... if it does so, you need to change it, all caps, all pots, all op amps and also some transistors, and here also mechanics it is a nightmare to fix them... I hate to stay... but... nope... nothing to adore much.

I'd better take an old rubbish cheap Quad 405 and repair it then...


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## AsRock (Mar 15, 2017)

Does his Denon actually have pre out for front speakers ?, maybe it changeable though the user interface so you loose the front highs to have front b's so to speak.

Not sure about matching but maybe Denon have some thing equivalent to Marantz's MA700's, but what you have now should be driving them pretty good and be careful some types of music will kill them way before their rating.

So if you feel the real need to check what Denon have in terms of Monoblocks,  I said the Marantz ones as they are not that expensive if gotten secondhand, about $300 a pair for 2 200w.

But better to check AV forums to see if those will match.
*
*


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 15, 2017)

AsRock said:


> Does his Denon actually have pre out for front speakers ?



Looks like it has. Even a 9.1 or 9.2.


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## AsRock (Mar 15, 2017)

Yeah, although i am hoping he's using at least a good laptop cooler on top of that as if he's having it as loud as he says that HDMI board will go POOF .  Seen so many were the heat kills the dsp and other chips on that top board in it.

But yeah looks like it.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 15, 2017)

AsRock said:


> Yeah, although i am hoping he's using at least a good laptop cooler on top of that as if he's having it as loud as he says that HDMI board will go POOF .



Don't you like strolls through the cemetery?


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## Jayell (Mar 15, 2017)

revin said:


> There's a button for that.
> It's been asked a couple times for you to do the testing to try to determine what may be wrong.
> Are you just only wanting to throw money after another power unit, or want to see if there is an issue?


I am wanting an amp to push my polks like they should be. My denon, no matter what we switch or bi-amp isnot enough. I have never bough a home theater amp before and wanted advice on specifically which one to get. I did not want to work on my denon but appreciate the advice.


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## Seba_82 (Mar 15, 2017)

Harman & Kardon AVR 165... its nice... buy a old H&K beacause now was acquiered by Samsung....  sorry my few word and bad english...


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 15, 2017)

Jayell said:


> I am wanting an amp to push my polks like they should be. My denon, no matter what we switch or bi-amp isnot enough. I have never bough a home theater amp before and wanted advice on specifically which one to get. I did not want to work on my denon but appreciate the advice.



What's your budget?



Seba_82 said:


> Harman & Kardon AVR 165... its nice... buy a old H&K beacause now was acquiered by Samsung....  sorry my few word and bad english...



Harman isn't Harman for a decade already... from the old bunch i think some Onkyo amps has remained with the old philosophy IMHO.


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## revin (Mar 15, 2017)

Even some great deals local to where you are can reap major reward's like on craigslist. Salvaation Army Goodwill DAV ect..
Can you return the Denon?



Jayell said:


> My denon, no matter what we switch or bi-amp isnot enough. I have never bough a home theater amp before and wanted advice on specifically which one to get. I did not want to work on my denon


So it's defective? You have tried just using the main A with the Polk's, and still shut's off?

@Jayell  Go pick up one of these and call it  day.

*HSU Research 500A Subwoofer amplifier
*


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## m1dg3t (Mar 15, 2017)

revin said:


> Overrated as in not close to rated output.  some where I think I understood it clipped at 80 watts
> Like as has been said these newer AVR have issue's since they have to fit a budget, so more frills means something else must be cut to save cost.
> Very few now days have an output that can pushed hard and not suffer. They try to make them look good on paper, but in real world they under perform  more closer to rated output.
> 
> ...



Er, ya... That's what I meant LoL You had to go and post pics eh? That Pioneer of yours is quite the unit, even today. Really the only thing it's lacking is HDMI 



Jayell said:


> What about a pyle pt3300?



Pyle is a pile LoL That is a PA style amp as mentioned by Revin IIRC, not a good choice for music listening. Did you not read my first post or are you 1 of those guys/gals who asks for advice and ignores what was offered to him/her? I saw a few Haflers on fleabay just the other day, 2 DH200s and a DH220 among the selection. Even an old Adcom would be perfect. If you want something new without breaking the bank check out Emotiva, not the greatest but it sounds good for what you pay. In my household we have 2 XPA1s, 1 XPA2 and an XPA5. Or you could always go buy a HK 165 hehehe

@revin Is that your sx1980?


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## revin (Mar 16, 2017)

Indeed, I think we all knew what you saying, just thought I refresh it in my post so outside readers that may have limited knowledge of audio basics.

I'm somewhat confused s to just what OP is trying to accomplish.
  Lurking in and out but ignoring the very basis of us asking them to narrow down his issue at hand.
Several post have been directed to the issue of the unit but got scathed over. But, cant get  horse to drink the water lol.
If I had spent 3-400 dollars on a unit and it had those issues, be dam'd going to find out what is wrong. Not have some blue shirt tell me I just need a new preamp and power amp!
Granted it's not a real high end unit, but it was marketed as such, and even if it got close to 80-100 plus watts 1.-it should not shut off, and 2.- it should very well go past 40 or 50.
So seems like got another 1 post wonder who don't want any advise, so grab a Pyle or what ever and be done.
As for saying you tried this and that, I'm not so sure you even knew how to do a proper bi-amp with your setup. [Which most of don't feel you should even try do that at this point]

BTW, there is no reason that properly working unit will NOT run those 70's at high volume .I don't mean just loud, but high !
Tell us, what is it your wanting to accomplish, *waste money* on another power unit, or even try to get the one you have to *working?*

Dang 25 min for me to type ??? 

*EDIT:*


m1dg3t said:


> That Pioneer of yours is quite the unit


Thanks  It really is a brute. I don't do 5.1 ect any more Just good ole stereo. The shop that fixed few years ago it went thru 2 bags of resistors just to find one in same spec as was in it.
I had  "grounding" issue trying to bi-amp, took out 1 channel. Live and learn. They updated the output caps larger power cord few other items. He had went to college with Bob Carver and they worked on several projects over the years.
*EDIT :to* *clarify   *The 1980 was just like _*what a friend*_ traded a 65 Nova for about 1979-80. Guy from service over seas needed a car, he had the 1980, large 5 way 18{?} Sansui speakers, Teac tape, Studer or Rotel Reel to reel[15ips] a killer heavy turntable and another heavyweight Marantz with the ossicscope. Man I tell you it was a concert ! Litlery people come down to the park thinking it was a concert !Oh those were the days !!!!!


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

Bi amp wire the speakers ( they support it)?

 Does the receiver have a a/b speaker channel?


This thread is all over the place lol


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 16, 2017)

revin said:


> I don't do 5.1 ect any more Just good ole stereo.



The first thing you do after overcoming puberty.


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

Hate a/v receivers. I had to buy a cheap one because my ex wife destroyed my old Sony quad channel!!


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 16, 2017)

OneCool said:


> Hate a/v receivers. I had to buy a cheap one because my ex wife destroyed my old Sony quad channel!!



How? Share your sorrow so we can learn from your mistakes.


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

When I left her she fell off the deep end of bipolar and addiction.

She swore I had it bugged with microphones and video cameras.

Not to mention my 40in flat screen,computer, Sony studio monitors speakers,ps3 .. Destroyed them all.

Sold all the rest tools,100 plus CD's,200+ DVDs,lots of tools..Pawned it for nothing.


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## m1dg3t (Mar 16, 2017)

revin said:


> Indeed, I think we all knew what you saying, just thought I refresh it in my post so outside readers that may have limited knowledge of audio basics.
> I'm somewhat confused s to just what OP is trying to accomplish.
> Lurking in and out but ignoring the very basis of us asking them to narrow down his issue at hand.
> Several post have been directed to the issue of the unit but got scathed over. But, cant get horse to drink the water lol.
> ...


I think he's just trolling TBH, yourself and Ferrum Master have been giving solid advice and asking good questions and they seem to be glossed right over LoL It's not hard, Front Left to FL + Front Right to FR, red to pos and black to neg, select stereo for 2ch and done 


OneCool said:


> Bi amp wire the speakers ( they support it)?
> Does the receiver have a a/b speaker channel?
> This thread is all over the place lol


Stop talking Bi amp/Bi wire FFS! This dude can barely read LoL


Ferrum Master said:


> The first thing you do after overcoming puberty.


HaHaHa Made me spill my beer bastid!   Surround has it's place, but for music 2ch is where it's at 
I gonna try some pix, I dusted everything off the other day... Ah! Ran out of space, have a few more pix. Vintage Black receiver Pioneer sx 5590, vintage silver face Pioneer sx 1080. Larger AVR Yamaha DSP z7, smaller AVR Yamaha HTR 6290b. Of the 3 seperate AMPs 2 are Emotiva XPA1s and the other is an Emotiva XPA5. Upstairs there's a Pioneer VSX 812 paired with an Emotiva XPA2 and I'm pretty sure there a Pioneer sx 636 kickin' around up there too


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## revin (Mar 16, 2017)

@OneCool  That's very sad a Quad got destroyed ! and the rest of the stuff so sad !!
@Ferrum Master  I tried multi when I first got it and nope, not really worth it to me.[ Does it count if I was 45 and I didn't even keep it for a week and was on morphine]  lol But did start HiFi even before I got my first car !
I get better separation and imaging from the Infinity's  in stereo. and in the back just swap L&R  then got stereo from the side or facing seating position
Not much difference than some of the multi effects that a lot of units have even.
For the price at the time this AV was best bang for the dollar, but I knew it had stellar audio performance. That's what is the first part to securitize for any audio component.
I only use optical,  bring the sound in and just switch the input on the TV and the receiver.
It was pretty much the last of a high end analogue unit, moving to that digital switching. Unstill just recent years it is just starting to get a good sound again[Digital]. Pioneer ICE Digital is very now worthy, catching up with Carver and his Sunfire's, Crown and others.
In fact just the very next model up ,the 40, is a pile of junk. It kinda the same as where the op is at some units are made awesome, and then they have to toss in those that are made to "look" awesome.
Topping that with rating them at : 1khz, @ 6ohm , 1 channel driven, and love those micro second 3,000 watts ratings!!  Flipp'n FTC
Used to if it's not 20-20 @ 0.00x you wernt on the porch with the big dogs.
Oh well, like Ferrum said those tube amps are almost gone and defiantly priced accordingly but there are many many makes of excellent priced older units to suffice.
EDIT Damnit I'm  slow ass typer !!!!!
That's some Sexy hardware. @m1dg3t  !!! There is some worthy items like that in Tulsa  about  hour or so from me. Would love to spend my stash cash on another one.


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## revin (Mar 16, 2017)

m1dg3t said:


> HaHaHa Made me spill my beer bastid!


  Indeed it was catchy !! You got some dandy's in there too , too many for me to snipe, but your dead on brother. I give up

They put some 22 or 33 k caps in mine not sure what it had from Pioneer to start.
Kinda funny, this guy that has the repair store was really excited to work on mine, and didn't understand why no one else wanted to. They said that "those Elites are just really over our head.
So screw'em bought the service manual called him up and whamo Made a good friend and heard some cool stories they had "back in the day" The only thing that threw him a curve was when he found the 48v on each rail, they put huge Danger Deadly Electronic sign over it. Said that had been many years he got to dig into a real HiFi unit.
Boy howdy would love to spend a day going thu a audition of your collection 








*EDIT:* Just to give visitors n idea of the scope of the SX1980


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## AsRock (Mar 16, 2017)

Geez, at least my wife's not gone that far with conspiracy ( not the only one either ), still wants her name boot up with her system as i apparently have mine doing just that.


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## revin (Mar 16, 2017)

What are these units ?,  The end one's look similar[Dual mono blocks each *lol*], but the middle ?*Edit: Emotiva XPA5. So Crown's......? im really sloooooowwwww*




Is that a  Black 1980 ???[ in first pic] yes, but WoW, didn't know they had black ! So do all 1980's break into 2 parts?


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

revin said:


> Indeed it was catchy !! You got some dandy's in there too , too many for me to snipe, but your dead on brother. I give up
> 
> They put some 22 or 33 k caps in mine not sure what it had from Pioneer to start.
> Kinda funny, this guy that has the repair store was really excited to work on mine, and didn't understand why no one else wanted to. They said that "those Elites are just really over our head.
> ...


Very nice!!


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## revin (Mar 16, 2017)

OneCool said:


> Very nice!!


Wouldn't y love to spend the day with m1dget !!!!!! 
Hey, tell ya watt [lol] Those will wake up the Polks


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## m1dg3t (Mar 16, 2017)

revin said:


> What are these units ?,  The end one's look similar[Dual mono blocks each *lol*], but the middle ?
> Is that a  Black 1980 ??? yes, but WoW, didn't know they had black ! So do all 1980's break into 2 parts?


 
End units are Differential MoNo blocks, center is a 5ch. Nah the black face is a Euro/Asian market sx 1280, most found their way here through PXs. I just happened to get lucky about 6/7 years ago when I came across it on a local audio trading forum, I wish it was a 1980! Man I jizzed my pants when you posted a pair, those are some super rare birds! Are they yours? I hope you got a fresh stylus on your TT! Packin' up the vinyl, audio gear & a keg of beer! I'm on my way LoL I have a weakness for old Pioneers LoL 

If I was into tubes like Ferrum Master, I'd be broke I think! Too many choices and they all impact the reproduction. Tube Rollin' like a BOSS! LoL. What do you mean break in 2 parts? I'd like to get better speakers but the place I'm in right now is not conducive to my music/theater listening habbits so I'm just enjoying what I got for now. I had a few more pix but I must be too buzzed cuz I can't upload them LoL Damn you TPU 2Mb limit!

http://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-1


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

revin said:


> Wouldn't y love to spend the day with m1dget !!!!!!
> Hey, tell ya watt [lol] Those will wake up the Polks





revin said:


> Wouldn't y love to spend the day with m1dget !!!!!!
> Hey, tell ya watt [lol] Those will wake up the Polks



Haaa.


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

Not a Polk fan really. There sensitivity rating is trash and their stereo separation is something to be desired.

I'm a Klipsch man


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## m1dg3t (Mar 16, 2017)

OneCool said:


> Not a Polk fan really. There sensitivity rating is trash and their stereo separation is something to be desired. I'm a Klipsch man


 
Uah, Horns!  LoL What would you expect from mass produced speakers? Do you listen to music or just think of words to describe listening to music? HeHeHe Not all Polk stuff is junk, just like not all Klipsch stuff sounds like crap. In the end they all die when I'm done with 'em 


revin said:


> Wouldn't y love to spend the day with m1dget !!!!!!
> Hey, tell ya watt [lol] Those will wake up the Polks


 
ROTFLMFAO


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

I know what sounds good to me and Polk is never the case.

Hell I'd rather listen to my DCM KX12 series twos than any Polk I can think of.


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## m1dg3t (Mar 16, 2017)

OneCool said:


> I know what sounds good to me and Polk is never the case.
> 
> Hell I'd rather listen to my DCM KX12 series twos than any Polk I can think of.


 
I feel the same about any modern Klipsch I've heard, too bright/harsh, poor separation and weak/muddy bass. Some La Scalas would be nice though!   

Right now I've got RTi A9s & A7s in the main room, using the A9s as fronts even though the A7s are more musical. If I could go back I'd have got all 4 A7s, the difference is rather noticeable to me and most others who have had a listen.


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## OneCool (Mar 16, 2017)

My ears and my wallet are way different things.
Still want a set of RF-82 ll


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## revin (Mar 16, 2017)

sorry I bailed last nite, grandson got sick and I crashed shortly after]


m1dg3t said:


> What do you mean break in 2 parts?


Yea just what the hell did I mean  You set me straight on the Black unit I guess the shielding threw me off, but wow are they similar.
So thing is,  I got the G22/3300 mixed up, thought the 1980 was same design.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Also, I would be lying if I tried to claim both 1980's . But those few years hanging out with my buddy after work and weekends oh the joy watching the girls and my wife dancing !!!

Polk's = WAF  Polk Studio Monitor Loudspeaker Couple years ago I had inquired in a thread here about needing to "replace" the huge Pioneer CS9900's.6 pairs in fact.[WUAF]=pissed
So my basis was my Infinity RSe Studio Monitors. These are amazing speakers that have a really wide sound field, and make excellent separation and imagining like few others'
Standing inplane next to the outside of a speaker, you can very well hear and distinguish the stereo separation. Even just from on the floor. Not something you needed to strain to hear or bullshit, it was just there.

That image stage was my main concern to still achieve. Thus didn't need a "sweet spot" to sit in and all that crap. I had auditioned the line at Best Buy, Klipsch , Polks [had 60's then], and  pair of Martian's. 
So they were out at 4 digit prices, but the Klipsch had the some of the same shrill too them. The 60's seem'd ok though. It was suggested [here]that the Polks  were similar to the Infinity's so huge sale came up, the WAF was in high gear for Black [she HATED those brown giant 9900's, 4 of 'em in the Front room !] So WIN WIN Less that $200  pop snagged 4 75t's and really now I'm being honest.

I'm not an "audiophile extremist" They sound really good, they play extremely LOUD with all four on A+B. They are very clean, very clean.   But they can be bright but sadly they have a limited stage and imaging to them. So for listening to great music, and some times loud they are wonderful. Thus they are Loudspeakers just as advertised. Now compared to my modded CS9900's, they were shrill on some vocals. 1 set has  a refurbished pair of CS99A cross over network in them and that helped fine tune that out. Added a pair of those heavy duty Parts express 16" woofers, and that xover made them a really nice sounding set.
All four had plenty of bass bump to keep the windows shaking,[damnit I sound like a flipping kid ] and even made the mirrors on the old DLP dance to the music lol.

So all in all they re very good speakers for the cost, they handle gobs of clean power and don't lead to a fatiguing experience. No there not Bower's or Kappa's but they do fit in for a overall great experience.  
Besides when I get that urge to get lost in the music, switch over to the RSe's.

So @m1dg3t still jonesing for moar pics


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