# Next generation console speculation



## WhoDecidedThat (Jan 1, 2022)

Just curious of you guys thoughts on this. We had Intel x86-x64 for Xbox One/PS4 and Xbox Series X/PS5. Do you think will this trend of x86-x64 continue in the next generation or will we switch to ARM v9 for Xbox Next/PS6 ?

In general, what do you think about ARM v9 for gaming systems (not gaming PCs though, I doubt we can shed the legacy of x86 on Windows) ?


----------



## oobymach (Jan 1, 2022)

x86-x64 is the standard, consoles have used different chips in the past, ps3 for example was a powerpc like apple was at the time, both have moved to x86-x64 because it is a better code cruncher.

ARM afaik is more suitable for phones and laptops because it's less power hungry than i5 for example. I doubt consoles will be making the switch until it can perform on par with amd and intel, also afaik it's a different code structure so completely different to program for.









						Arm vs x86: Instruction sets, architecture, and all key differences explained
					

ARM is the top CPU designer for smartphones, Intel is the big name in PCs. What's the difference? Find out in this Arm vs x86 comparison!




					www.androidauthority.com


----------



## ARF (Jan 1, 2022)

I guess Sony uses AMD's x86-64 because it is easier to backport gaming titles between the platforms.

But if Sony wants the superior option, it has to go ARM RISC. It is faster and more power efficient..


----------



## GerKNG (Jan 1, 2022)

it'll be another 1 year old ish laptop without a screen and battery that forces you to buy incredibly overpriced games, forced subscriptions and insanely expensive SSDs because... reasons.


----------



## Totally (Jan 1, 2022)

blanarahul said:


> Just curious of you guys thoughts on this. We had Intel x86-x64 for Xbox One/PS4 and Xbox Series X/PS5. Do you think will this trend of x86-x64 continue in the next generation or will we switch to ARM v9 for Xbox Next/PS6 ?
> 
> In general, what do you think about ARM v9 for gaming systems (not gaming PCs though, I doubt we can shed the legacy of x86 on Windows) ?


Isn't this the first gen where both consoles are x86-64? Is the PS5 even x86-64? Anyway asking a crystal will probably provide a more meaningful answer as any number of breakthroughs or lack thereof could sway either way between then and now. The only certainty/commonality between generations is bang for buck. Today that advantage falls with x86-64 thus it power todays consoles. Tomorrow who knows something might happens and Sony/MS might figure it makes more sense to go with a custom SoC that runs on their own in house code once again.


----------



## Kissamies (Jan 1, 2022)

I put my chips for x64, as long we don't move from it (Apple did, but we x64 users), I guess that consoles will still use semi-custom hardware like PS4/PS5/Xbox One/S/X/Series S/X does.

I'll bet a beer for it.


----------



## ARF (Jan 1, 2022)

The PlayStation 3 Cell 8-core CPU was one of a kind.



> Developed by Sony, Toshiba, and IBM in an alliance known as “STI”, the PS3’s architecture was well ahead of its time. The system used a technology known as the Cell Broadband Engine processor platform.
> 
> According to Michiel van der Leeuw, the co-director and technical director at Guerrilla Games, the Cell is still in a class of its own some 13 years on from the console’s launch.
> 
> In an interview with Gameinformer celebrating the brand’s 25th anniversary, van der Leeuw had some interesting thoughts to share:





> “Even desktop chips nowadays, the fastest Intel stuff you can buy, is not by far as powerful as the Cell CPU, but it’s very difficult to get power out of the Cell.
> “I think it was ahead of its age, because it was a little bit more like how GPUs work nowadays, but it was maybe not balanced nicely and it was too hard to use. It overshot a little bit in power and undershot in usability, but it was definitely visionary.”
> It’s quite an extraordinary claim that requires some scrutiny. Simply put, the Cell’s architecture comprises four components. At its heart is the Power Processing Element, or PPE, featuring a 3.2GHz, dual-core CPU based on IBM’s PowerPC 2.02 ISA (Instruction Set Architecture).
> 
> Alongside it, the platform made use of eight co-processors, dubbed Synergistic Processing Elements, or SPEs, also clocked at 3.2GHz. Even though the PS3 only used six of these eight SPEs, it still set itself apart from the pack. Even the Xbox 360 paled in comparison with its Xenon CPU, based on a modified version of the PPE design.



Is PlayStation 3’s Cell Processor Still More Powerful Than Modern Desktop Chips? – GTPlanet


----------



## ixi (Jan 1, 2022)

AMD is life :>


----------



## ARF (Jan 1, 2022)

ixi said:


> AMD is life :>



Short-lived, unfortunately. Because whatever is made by AMD and is x86-64, gets obsolete very quickly.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 1, 2022)

ARF said:


> Short-lived, unfortunately. Because whatever is made by AMD and is x86-64, gets obsolete very quickly.


Wow, the PS4 Xboxes, many PCs all going beyond 5 years in use and still in use are obsolete.


----------



## WhoDecidedThat (Jan 2, 2022)

Totally said:


> Isn't this the first gen where both consoles are x86-64?


No. PS4 and Xbox One are x86-64 as well. They used AMD Jaguar cores which are AMD's Intel Atom-equivalent cores.



Maenad said:


> I guess that consoles will still use semi-custom hardware like PS4/PS5/Xbox One/S/X/Series S/X does.



I really wish Xbox would switch away from unified memory architecture to seperate CPU and GPU memory architecture. It will be very similar to what we have for PCs and will hopefully make porting games to PCs easier and incentivize game devs to make Xbox-PC multiplatform games since the hardware design is so similar.

In other words, what we have now is Xbox Series X having 16 gigs of GDDR6 unified memory. If they had CPU connected to 8 gigs of DDR4 memory and GPU connected to 8 gigs of GDDR6 memory then it would be very similar to what we have for gaming PCs. So, if a dev optomized for my hypothetical Xbox, they would also be doing a lot of work for PC optimization.


----------



## ARF (Jan 2, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Wow, the PS4 Xboxes, many PCs all going beyond 5 years in use and still in use are obsolete.



The PS4 is the most epic fail ever launched.

*PS4 Pro held back by Jaguar CPU, here's the proof*


> Sony overclocked the PS4 Pro's Jaguar CPU, but it's still holding the console back in terms of optimized frame rate performance.
> 
> When Sony announced its new 4K-ready PlayStation 4 Pro would launch with mismatched hardware--a powerful new AMD Radeon Polaris GPU alongside the woefully outdated Jaguar CPU--we predicted the inevitable bottlenecking would occur. Lo and behold, we've just received some new evidence on the PS4 Pro's CPU.





> Eurogamer's Digital Foundry has identified a clear instance where the PlayStation 4 Pro's CPU is preventing adequate performance, mainly in frame rates. Batman: Arkham City and Arkham Asylum actually have native PS4 Pro without any Forward Compatibility patches or updates, but their enhancements have been added stealthily and are solely focused at boosting raw performance; the upgrades are unoptimized and not very streamlined, with some scenes being entirely based on the PS4 Pro's overclocked 2.1GHz Jaguar CPU instead of the Polaris GPU, which more than doubles the original PS4's graphics processing power.
> 
> Digital Foundry finds that the scenes that only tap the PS4 Pro's 2.1GHz Jaguar CPU only provide a minimal bump in FPS, with one scene hitting just a 6FPS bump, which actually directly corresponds to the 31% boost in the CPU's overclock. The publication hints that if the PS4 Pro had a more optimized and powerful CPU, these specific scenes would have better frame rates.


PS4 Pro held back by Jaguar CPU, here's the proof | TweakTown



> Jaguar may have been a suitable choice in 2014 but the low clock speed and outdated architecture is starting to bite. Control won't be the only title that starts to kill FPS. The SoC simply doesn't have enough puff to run all those particle, smoke and physic effects on top of the other AI and routines.


The PS4 Jaguar CPU is running out of puff . . . . : PS4 (reddit.com)


----------



## WhoDecidedThat (Jan 2, 2022)

ARF said:


> The PS4 is the most epic fail ever launched.
> 
> *PS4 Pro held back by Jaguar CPU, here's the proof*


PS4 ain't the only one with 8 Jaguar cores. Xbox One, One X and One S had jaguar cores too.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 2, 2022)

ARF said:


> The PS4 is the most epic fail ever launched.
> 
> *PS4 Pro held back by Jaguar CPU, here's the proof*
> 
> ...


Yeh right, it's sales figures say different.


----------



## WhoDecidedThat (Jan 2, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Yeh right, it's sales figures say different.


Agreed. While I do agree with ARF that the PS4/Xbox One generation was held back by lack of CPU processing power, it is irrelevant to the couch gamers who don't know any better and purchased them anyway. The majority of console gamers are unaware and don't care about the PC Master Race.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 2, 2022)

blanarahul said:


> Agreed. While I do agree with ARF that the PS4/Xbox One generation was held back by lack of CPU processing power, it is irrelevant to the couch gamers who don't know any better and purchased them anyway. The majority of console gamers are unaware and don't care about the PC Master Race.


I have owned a better than PS4 pc the whole PS4 generation, but still gamed on the PS4 most nights for four years on multiplayer since I prefer console ONLY multiplayer due to less cheater's.
And never once thought, "damn this PS4 is shit it can't play this.
Held back perhaps, made short lived is a total shite exaggeration spouted by a non console user probably , they're Still useable Now and mine is still in use.

Oh and in case it seams different I agree with you.

I get ARFs point but he exaggerated it's uselessness, yeh the CPU is a limiter, no it didn't make the PS4 a bad console in its time.


----------



## Kissamies (Jan 2, 2022)

ARF said:


> The PlayStation 3 Cell 8-core CPU was one of a kind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wasn't Cell one hell to develop games for? Also one thing which I learned only recently, is that X360's tri-core CPU has SMT.

X360 vs PS3 was the most interesting battle in console history if you ask me.


----------



## WhoDecidedThat (Jan 2, 2022)

Maenad said:


> Wasn't Cell one hell to develop games for? Also one thing which I learned only recently, is that X360's tri-core CPU has SMT.
> 
> X360 vs PS3 was the most interesting battle in console history if you ask me.


Yup, cell was rather difficult to develop for. Sony was in fact quite proud of the fact that their CPU was so difficult to program.

Agreed with X360 and PS3 being very interesting. The past 2 generations we have had both sides use almost identical hardware. I am expecting that by the next generation as game complexity increases further, we will start seeing greater similarity in APIs for PC/Xbox and PlayStation. The only difference will be exclusives.


----------



## MIRTAZAPINE (Jan 3, 2022)

blanarahul said:


> Yup, cell was rather difficult to develop for. Sony was in fact quite proud of the fact that their CPU was so difficult to program.
> 
> Agreed with X360 and PS3 being very interesting. The past 2 generations we have had both sides use almost identical hardware. I am expecting that by the next generation as game complexity increases further, we will start seeing greater similarity in APIs for PC/Xbox and PlayStation. The only difference will be exclusives.



Sony is quite well-known to not be developer friendly and add to it their proprietary format they like to push out eg: pro duo, m2 memory card. When the PlayStation 2 generation started in the 2000 it was also difficult to programmed for versus friendly programmed console like the Sega Dreamcast that era. Sadly sega never managed to get the gaming market despite listening to developer for an easier console to programmed versus the predecessor the Saturn having a dual core cpu in the 90s. 

On Sony side they further grow exponentially difficult with the Ps3. It further cement Sony being a more hardware oriented company than a software based one. I do love PS3 it was such a technological wonder with it multi-core cpu and bluray player. I wonder what if Xbox 360 went to an X86 like their orginal xbox with a pentium 3 based cpu, it would probably accelerate the x86 move alot further.


----------



## WhoDecidedThat (Jan 3, 2022)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I wonder what if Xbox 360 went to an X86 like their orginal xbox with a pentium 3 based cpu, it would probably accelerate the x86 move alot further.


I doubt it would have changed anything for Sony. But, considering that X360 is the only non-x86 Xbox, X360 being x86 too would have allowed for effortless backwards compatibility since it would mean all Xboxs are x86.


----------



## cvaldes (Jan 4, 2022)

The ultimate end for all of this will be cloud gaming. If I am right then the architecture won't matter that much in terms of legacy acceptance. However it will be something that runs well on battery-powered mobile devices.

Performance-per-watt will rule over rasterization performance.


----------



## ir_cow (Jan 4, 2022)

Video games for years was created for the platform. That all changed with Microsoft who used X86 in the OG Xbox. Now all consoles are X86 based. Moving away from this would cost billions in revenue. If developers are unwilling to port or make games for your system - it is doomed to fail.

Consoles will forever be X86 based unless its Nintendo who does whatever they like and only have 1st party games anyways.


----------



## cvaldes (Jan 4, 2022)

ir_cow said:


> Video games for years was created for the platform. That all changed with Microsoft who used X86 in the OG Xbox. Now all consoles are X86 based. Moving away from this would cost billions in revenue. If developers are unwilling to port or make games for your system - it is doomed to fail.
> 
> Consoles will forever be X86 based unless its Nintendo who does whatever they like and only have 1st party games anyways.


LOL, Nintendo sells far more consoles than PlayStation and Xbox. And yes, their exclusive content is the industry's best.

I will point out that clouding gaming services run quite fine on non-X86 systems and cloud gaming is the way of the future. It's also worth pointing out that Nintendo themselves have changed architectures before. Super NES was based off of Motorola 6502, N64 was MIPS, GameCube was PowerPC, today's Switch is Nvidia Tegra.

If I recall correctly, the SNES Classic revival console is an ARM-based device running in emulation mode.

There are also current ARM-based hardware devices that play modern games natively (e.g., iOS and Android devices running Fortnite) so for sure the hardware has enough power. This also includes M1-powered Macs running games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider Intel binaries under Rosetta 2 emulation mode.


----------

