# Missing Bios with ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7 for MSI B450 boards



## izy (Jul 6, 2022)

It seems that MSI removed last bios update for motherboards with b450 chipsets and i see on some b450  mobos they added it back with same changelog  but with a different version id as BETA (as far as i remember last 1.2.0.7 bios was released as stable), seem that it was probably bugged. ex. is missing from B450 tomahawk max , maybe for other chipsets too but this is the only one ive checked.


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## izy (Jul 7, 2022)

Removed Bios:
B450 TOMAHAWK MAX (MS-7C02) V3.E BIOS Release
2. This BIOS fixes the following problem of the previous version:
-  Update to AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7.
-  Change the default setting of Secure Boot.
Release Date: i think it was 2022-06 or 05

New bios they just added (that replaced the other bios)
B450 TOMAHAWK MAX (MS-7C02) V3.F1 BIOS Release - (Beta version)
2. This BIOS fixes the following problem of the previous version:
-  Update to AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7.
-  Change the default setting of Secure Boot.
Release Date: 2022-07-05

I am guessing, as i said in the other post, that the first bios had some bugs so they just replaced it , im still using the older one and i dont have any problems so far but maybe this will help some other people with b450 / x470 boards that have instability issues.


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## eazen (Jul 9, 2022)

Agesa 1.2.0.7 solves some crucial bugs, yes. TPM module stutter which is used with Windows 11.


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## izy (Jul 9, 2022)

eazen said:


> Agesa 1.2.0.7 solves some crucial bugs, yes. TPM module stutter which is used with Windows 11.


Yes , but the idea for my post was that the first bios with ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7 ( V3.E) that was released a month ago or so (as stable) was bugged and they removed it then they released new one ( V3.F1) as BETA  a few days ago (basically same bios with some fixes i guess?) , i think some people had problems with RAM on b450 / x470 because they didnt do it only for TOMAHAWK MAX , they did it for all motherboards with those chipsets (in stealth ).


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## Mussels (Jul 9, 2022)

eazen said:


> Agesa 1.2.0.7 solves some crucial bugs, yes. TPM module stutter which is used with Windows 11.


1.2.0.7 added new CPU's as well, but broke PBO for a lot of users as well.

I assume another update is coming, sooner or later.


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## Blaeza (Jul 9, 2022)

So I won't have to D/L a specific bios when I get a 5700X/5800X?


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 9, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> So I won't have to D/L a specific bios when I get a 5700X/5800X?


What bios do you have on your mobo currently?


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## Blaeza (Jul 9, 2022)

Erm, 1 sec...

Bios 2.GO but I'm on Mortar MAX.


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## The King (Jul 9, 2022)

I dont like the fact he MSI changed the default bootup option to UEFI and did not leave it on CSM.

How do they expect people with older GPUs to go into the BIOS and change that!

Anyway rant over. Im running 1.2.0.7 on a B450M Mortar Max and its been problem free and performance seems better than 1.2.0.6C


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## izy (Jul 9, 2022)

The King said:


> I dont like the fact he MSI changed the default bootup option to UEFI and did not leave it on CSM.
> 
> How do they expect people with older GPUs to go into the BIOS and change that!
> 
> Anyway rant over. Im running 1.2.0.7 on a B450M Mortar Max and its been problem free and performance seems better than 1.2.0.6C


Do you use the updated bios from few days ago or the first release (1.2.0.7)?  You can get into bios even you have an older GPU as far as i know.


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## Blaeza (Jul 9, 2022)

1.2.0.7 V2


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## eazen (Jul 9, 2022)

CSM / UEFI doesn’t prevent pc from starting into bios, just windows can be faulty.


Blaeza said:


> 1.2.0.7 V2


ofc all new Ryzen run with this bios.


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## The King (Jul 9, 2022)

izy said:


> Do you use the updated bios from few days ago or the first release (1.2.0.7)?  You can get into bios even you have an older GPU as far as i know.


I am using the first release. On the day it was released.

I have tested it and when you do a reset BIOS with 1.2.0.7 it defaults to UEFI and the BIOS wont load but windows will once its starts up.
So you cant make any changes in the BIOS if you running a non UEFI BIOS GPU when its on UEFI mode. Older versions defaulted to CSM when you
reseted the BIOS.

Just something to be on the lookout for if you are running an older GPU.

Maybe this has been fixed in the new version? Will check it out now.


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## izy (Jul 9, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> 1.2.0.7 V2


Last bios is 7B89v2H1(Beta version) - 2022-07-04, same ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7 as the older one that was removed, the idea of this thread


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## eazen (Jul 9, 2022)

The King said:


> I am using the first release. On the day it was released.
> 
> I have tested it and when you do a reset BIOS with 1.2.0.7 it defaults to UEFI and the BIOS wont load but windows will once its starts up.
> So you cant make any changes in the BIOS if you running a non UEFI BIOS GPU when its on UEFI mode. Older versions defaulted to CSM when you
> ...


Afaik windows has a function to reset into bios. Use that. Fixed


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## Blaeza (Jul 9, 2022)

eazen said:


> CSM / UEFI doesn’t prevent pc from starting into bios, just windows can be faulty.
> 
> ofc all new Ryzen run with this bios.


I thought, being a noob, that you had to download a specific bios for a specific chip.  Of course.


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## eazen (Jul 9, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I thought, being a noob, that you had to download a specific bios for a specific chip.  Of course.


Well, one bios always supports multiple chips. Usually a lot of different CPUs. You can see the table if you go into the support page of your mainboard.


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## Blaeza (Jul 9, 2022)

eazen said:


> Well, one bios always supports multiple chips. Usually a lot of different CPUs. You can see the table if you go into the support page of your mainboard.


True.


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 9, 2022)

The King said:


> I dont like the fact he MSI changed the default bootup option to UEFI and did not leave it on CSM.
> 
> How do they expect people with older GPUs to go into the BIOS and change that!
> 
> Anyway rant over. Im running 1.2.0.7 on a B450M Mortar Max and its been problem free and performance seems better than 1.2.0.6C


They don't


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## The King (Jul 9, 2022)

eidairaman1 said:


> They don't


I own the board and have tested this out.

I used my RX 480 which has a UEFI BIOS and switch it to CSM so that my 5570 can work.

It worked great until I had to reset the BIOS which defaulted back to UEFI.

In this mode there is no display when you press DEL and enter the BIOS.

The only solution was to put my rx480 back in and change it back to CSM.

So you cant go into the BIOS but once windows loads GPU driver the display shows.

WIth BIOS version 1.2.0.3C and 1.2.0.6C when you do a reset BIOS it defaults to CSM.


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 9, 2022)

The King said:


> I own the board and have tested this out.
> 
> I used my RX 480 which has a UEFI BIOS and switch it to CSM so that my 5570 can work.
> 
> ...


What i was getting at is msi really doesn't care. But from what you just said it now defaults to CSM, which is Good.

The AsRock B550 Steel Legend I believe defaults to CSM out of the bix


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## Seto-Kaiba (Jul 9, 2022)

I have b450m pro-vdh plus and lastest bios is missing in website. fTPM not working with *7A38v9D* (Agesa 1.2.0.7 update) version. This version have bugs. Maybe that's why MSI canceled it.


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## DoLlyBirD (Jul 9, 2022)

May bios 1.2.0.7 Agesa for MSI B450m Pro A Max has also been pulled, I suspect there was a slight problem with some of the early 1.2.0.7 Bios' and MSI have pulled them and will release an update soon, I'm sure they have done something similar not so long ago, I have the removed BIOS update and have no issues that I can perceive...


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## MachineLearning (Jul 9, 2022)

B450 Tomahawk Max II here. Downloaded & flashed the 1.2.0.7 AGESA BIOS before it was taken down. I prefer it over previous BIOSes, it doesn't delete all BIOS profiles when I clear CMOS.

However it's interesting a replacement BIOS for this board has not been published yet by MSI, only 1.2.0.6c AGESA is currently live.

Anecdotally, I did not find any critical bugs during a 1600AF OC session. As others have said I'd expect replacement BIOSes soon.

Situation is at least a bit better than ASRock, which for example hasn't published anything past 1.2.0.6b for the B450 Pro4 r2.0 (March 2022 date).


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## DoLlyBirD (Jul 9, 2022)

TBF, as good as this B450 has served me for 2-3 years I will likely go B550 very soon for PCI-E 4 and hopes of higher RAM speeds, currently I seem to be limited to 3800, though as the Ryzen 5500 is practically the same silicon as the 5600g without IGP, I was hoping for 4000+ still can't complain at the amount of support they have given for 3/4 years


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## The King (Jul 10, 2022)

DoLlyBirD said:


> TBF, as good as this B450 has served me for 2-3 years I will likely go B550 very soon for PCI-E 4 and hopes of higher RAM speeds, currently I seem to be limited to 3800, though as the Ryzen 5500 is practically the same silicon as the 5600g without IGP, I was hoping for 4000+ still can't complain at the amount of support they have given for 3/4 years


How many DIMMS are you running? With 4 DIMMS around 3800/3867 is about the Max I could get.

With  2 Dimms +4000MT/s is very possible wih B450 and I am running Vermeer.


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## Blaeza (Jul 10, 2022)

The King said:


> How many DIMMS are you running? With 4 DIMMS around 3800/3867 is about the Max I could get.
> 
> With  2 Dimms +4000MT/s is very possible wih B450 and I am running Vermeer.
> View attachment 254286


Showoff...


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## VuurVOS (Jul 10, 2022)

MachineLearning said:


> B450 Tomahawk Max II here. Downloaded & flashed the 1.2.0.7 AGESA BIOS before it was taken down. I prefer it over previous BIOSes, it doesn't delete all BIOS profiles when I clear CMOS.


MSI did made a major fuck up with the OC Profile CMOS clearing issue. I complained about this OC Profile clearing issue almost two weeks ago with a different motherboard (X570S Torpedo MAX).
It took a couple of days before they understood what was wrong. Their support engineers aren't the brightest ones.

Currently the OC Profiles still does not work properly in my opinion. In bios older versions it will wait during the POST on user input when you cleared the CMOS.
With the latest BETA it boots directly into Windows with only one or two seconds delay. In that time, you need to decide to enter the bios or press ALT+F1....F6 to load the OC profile.

Can you confirm if this happens on your B450 Tomahawk Max as well?


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## MachineLearning (Jul 10, 2022)

VuurVOS said:


> Currently the OC Profiles still does not work properly in my opinion. In bios older versions it will wait during the POST on user input when you cleared the CMOS.
> With the latest BETA it boots directly into Windows with only one or two seconds delay. In that time, you need to decide to enter the bios or press ALT+F1....F6 to load the OC profile.
> 
> Can you confirm if this happens on your B450 Tomahawk Max as well?


Yep - unfortunately, what you described is true for the B450 Tomahawk Max II with (pulled) BIOS file E7C02AMS.H80

Personally, I vastly prefer this over losing profiles just because it takes way less time. But, this is still indeed a bug.


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## VuurVOS (Jul 10, 2022)

MachineLearning said:


> Yep - unfortunately, what you described is true for the B450 Tomahawk Max II with (pulled) BIOS file E7C02AMS.H80
> 
> Personally, I vastly prefer this over losing profiles just because it takes way less time. But, this is still indeed a bug.


Please create a ticket at MSI. They really think this is what the end users want.....they said this is the new behavior when the CMOS is cleared.

I tried to made it very clear that this isn't what the end user want but they refuse to restore it to its orginal behavior....


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## MachineLearning (Jul 10, 2022)

VuurVOS said:


> Please create a ticket at MSI. They really think this is what the end users want.....they said this is the new behavior when the CMOS is cleared.
> 
> I tried to made it very clear that this isn't what the end user want but they refuse to restore it to its orginal behavior....


I will wait until the next BIOS release before I complain directly - it's possible that the engineers are changing it, yet CS isn't aware or isn't stating as such.

Personally this isn't a huge issue overall, since anytime I clear CMOS I'm near the keyboard and mashing to get into BIOS anyway. Not losing profiles is vastly more important to me. I do definitely agree with you that it still is sub-optimal CMOS clear behavior.


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## VuurVOS (Jul 11, 2022)

MachineLearning said:


> I will wait until the next BIOS release before I complain directly - it's possible that the engineers are changing it, yet CS isn't aware or isn't stating as such.
> 
> Personally this isn't a huge issue overall, since anytime I clear CMOS I'm near the keyboard and mashing to get into BIOS anyway. Not losing profiles is vastly more important to me. I do definitely agree with you that it still is sub-optimal CMOS clear behavior.


They aren't to fix if you wont make any noise. The bug was present in three main biosses releases in my case.
Nobody did made a noise until I bought the motherboard two weeks ago and noticed this bug. Reported it and after lots of responding they did something.....

More noise, means more attention to fix the issue.


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## izy (Jul 11, 2022)

Did anyone test the new 1.2.0.7 bios? I am still using the "pulled" version ( V3.E ) on my b450 tomahawk max and i dont have any issues , RAM @ 16 18 18 18 58 1T - 3667mhz on 3700x , not sure if i should update to the replaced one (V3.F1) or not. I think that my 3700x was boosting better with older bios and my ram was a bit faster in DRAM calculator benchmark , now i had to tweak it a bit as the motherboard uses some high secondary timings by default. My ram seems unstable at 3733 for some reason , i think its the memory controller as it doesnt boot at 3800mhz (or maybe i have to tweak the voltages and i havent played with them ) , this ram XMP is at 3600mhz.





Edit: Some other problem that i encounter is when OC-ing my ram the FCLK and UCLK are going to default even i change them in bios and the only way to make them work is to reset the bios to default and try again, any other way the FCLK / UCLK will not sync even if i make changes it in the bios.


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## mstenholm (Jul 11, 2022)

In reply to above. Sorry for me being lazy but all I got for documentation is a photo. These x-flare 3200/14 should be good for more than 3400 Mt/s but 3600/throws errors. I ran them at 3600 with a much older bios just fine. And that was with a 2700X.


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## izy (Jul 11, 2022)

mstenholm said:


> In reply to above. Sorry for me being lazy but all I got for documentation is a photo. These x-flare 3200/14 should be good for more than 3400 Mt/s but 3600/throws errors. I ran them at 3600 with a much older bios just fine. And that was with a 2700X.


You keep your ram at 1,48v? ^^ Its harder to OC with 4 sticks (guessing you have 4 )


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## mstenholm (Jul 11, 2022)

izy said:


> You keep your ram at 1,48v? ^^ Its harder to OC with 4 sticks (guessing you have 4 )


Yes 4 and I‘m a bit lower now, 1.46V as far as I remember.


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## The King (Jul 11, 2022)

izy said:


> Did anyone test the new 1.2.0.7 bios? I am still using the "pulled" version ( V3.E ) on my b450 tomahawk max and i dont have any issues , RAM @ 16 18 18 18 58 1T - 3667mhz on 3700x , not sure if i should update to the replaced one (V3.F1) or not. I think that my 3700x was boosting better with older bios and my ram was a bit faster in DRAM calculator benchmark , now i had to tweak it a bit as the motherboard uses some high secondary timings by default. My ram seems unstable at 3733 for some reason , i think its the memory controller as it doesnt boot at 3800mhz (or maybe i have to tweak the voltages and i havent played with them ) , this ram XMP is at 3600mhz.
> 
> View attachment 254383
> 
> Edit: Some other problem that i encounter is when OC-ing my ram the FCLK and UCLK are going to default even i change them in bios and the only way to make them work is to reset the bios to default and try again, any other way the FCLK / UCLK will not sync even if i make changes it in the bios.


You not going to get any higher to run stable or boot with 1.35V VDIMM

With Micron Rev. E 1.4V-1.45V is safe.
3600 CL14 is very easy to get with that very same kit. for 3800 you may need to increase your VSOC to 1.1V and run 1.45V
This was with my first gen Ryzen 1700X. I dont see why you wont be able to do 3800 with your 3700X. 

U4W on my kit means white U4B on you kit means Black. they basically the same


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## izy (Jul 11, 2022)

The King said:


> You not going to get any higher to run stable or boot with 1.35V VDIMM
> 
> With Micron Rev. E 1.4V-1.45V is safe.
> 3600 CL14 is very easy to get with that very same kit. for 3800 you may need to increase your VSOC to 1.1V and run 1.45V
> This was with my first gen Ryzen 1700X. I dont see why you wont be able to do 3800 with your 3700X.


Well i was going for 3733 not even 3800, it boots but its not stable, at 3800mhz it just wont boot , i didnt touch the voltage , used ram speed XMP with 2:1 ration. As far as i remember 3600 cl14 wasnt stable (not with this bios, im not sure if its the bios , the ram or memory controller ) ill have to give it a try with the new bios but i hope its no a mess 

Edit: what latency you get in AIDA?


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## The King (Jul 11, 2022)

mstenholm said:


> Yes 4 and I‘m a bit lower now, 1.46V as far as I remember.


Are all 4 sticks exactly the same? You should be getting much better out of 1.48V than 3400 on a 5950X!



izy said:


> Well i was going for 3733 not even 3800, it boots but its not stable, at 3800mhz it just wont boot , i didnt touch the voltage , used ram speed XMP with 2:1 ration. As far as i remember 3600 cl14 wasnt stable (not with this bios, im not sure if its the bios , the ram or memory controller ) ill have to give it a try with the new bios but i hope its no a mess
> 
> Edit: what latency you get in AIDA?


You can't increase frequency too high or lower CL to 14 without adding some voltage and expect the RAM to be stable.
Your kit is rated 3600 CL 16 @ 1.35V so 3667 CL16 is able to boot. If 3733 boots it most likely will not be stable at all with 1.35V.

However 3600 CL14 offers great performance. I would try that again with 1.45V. I ran that setup for over 2 years. it performed really well.


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## mstenholm (Jul 11, 2022)

The King said:


> Are all 4 sticks exactly the same? You should be getting much better out of 1.48V than 3400 on a 5950X!


Correct but not produced in same week but I got errors running Rosetta and tested them and found that they gave me errors. I might give at go later but that’s not my hobby and errors are something I rather live without on the expense of a few pro cent lower performance.


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## izy (Jul 11, 2022)

@The King if i remember right i did try 1.45v and with loose timings at 3733 (with this bios) and it didnt make any difference was still getting errors , ill update to the new bios and give it another try , would be great if i could get cl14 3600 or cl 16 3733 but i think ill have to increase the soc voltage too or something.

EDIT: Same bios , the difference from CL16 to CL14 its +0.1v and from 68 - 68.2 latency to 67.4 - 67.5, not sure if its worth , maybe ill have to play a bit with the timings. I have to stress test it first , it passed with no errors with the benchmark from DRAM-Calculator-for-Ryzen-1.7.3. Seem that this ram doesnt like lower tRCDRD , would like to have it at 16 






Not sure what my latency target should be,  can it do 66 ns?

Edit2: Best result so far that seems stable , but didnt try any game to see if its crashing or not just did the bench. (seems that this is a good cheap ram kit)
For some reason aida bench is worse with this timings.





Edit3: I ended up with this and it seems to work , still not sure if 1.45v its ok for daily use. I think i only did 1.4v before and thats why it didnt work , thanks @The King for pointing this out.








MachineLearning said:


> I will wait until the next BIOS release before I complain directly - it's possible that the engineers are changing it, yet CS isn't aware or isn't stating as such.
> 
> Personally this isn't a huge issue overall, since anytime I clear CMOS I'm near the keyboard and mashing to get into BIOS anyway. Not losing profiles is vastly more important to me. I do definitely agree with you that it still is sub-optimal CMOS clear behavior.


You know that you can save profiles on USB, thats what i do.


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## The King (Jul 11, 2022)

izy said:


> @The King if i remember right i did try 1.45v and with loose timings at 3733 (with this bios) and it didnt make any difference was still getting errors , ill update to the new bios and give it another try , would be great if i could get cl14 3600 or cl 16 3733 but i think ill have to increase the soc voltage too or something.
> 
> EDIT: Same bios , the difference from CL16 to CL14 its +0.1v and from 68 - 68.2 latency to 67.4 - 67.5, not sure if its worth , maybe ill have to play a bit with the timings. I have to stress test it first , it passed with no errors with the benchmark from DRAM-Calculator-for-Ryzen-1.7.3. Seem that this ram doesnt like lower tRCDRD , would like to have it at 16
> 
> ...


Change
RRDS 4
RRDL 6
tFAW 16
WTRS 5
WTRL 10
TWR 16
TRP 8

Drop both SCLs from 5 to 4.

Hopefully that should boot then run AIDA64 again . I never tested RCD 17 @ 3667 only at 3600.
RCD on REV.E does not scale with voltage. RCD 17 may work at 3600 but 18 is fine for 3667.


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## izy (Jul 11, 2022)

The King said:


> Change
> RRDS 4
> RRDL 6
> tFAW 16
> ...


Ive edited my previous post , i ended up with 14 -18 -16 -16  @ 3733 with 1.45v, ill try to lower the voltage and see if its still stable, with RCD 17 it had errors. Still ill have to test it in some games or for longer time to see if its really stable or not, the "pulled" bios seems fine for me.
Edit: After more testing it seems that ram doesnt give any errors, it works in games but i got a random reboot , i think the memory controller its bad or it needs more volts for 3733, im gonna test cl16 @ 3733 before playing with the memory controller voltage. Is 1.2v SoC safe?
Edit2: 1.2v SoC in bios , under aida stress test, everything seems ok no reboots so far , in ZenTimings  im getting 1.1750 and 1.1813 SoC voltage. (maybe it can do 3800?  )


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## The King (Jul 11, 2022)

izy said:


> Ive edited my previous post , i ended up with 14 -18 -16 -16  @ 3733 with 1.45v, ill try to lower the voltage and see if its still stable, with RCD 17 it had errors. Still ill have to test it in some games or for longer time to see if its really stable or not, the "pulled" bios seems fine for me.
> Edit: After more testing it seems that ram doesnt give any errors, it works in games but i got a random reboot , i think the memory controller its bad or it needs more volts for 3733, im gonna test cl16 @ 3733 before playing with the memory controller voltage. Is 1.2v SoC safe?


Try 1.15 or 1.175V first. You should not need 1.2V on the VSOC for just 2 DIMMS.


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## VuurVOS (Jul 11, 2022)

izy said:


> @The King You know that you can save profiles on USB, thats what i do.


That’s working around the issue but not solving it permanently! You need to load it every time from your usb instead of direct accessing it from the ROM space.

@izy can you also raise a ticket at MSI so it gets proper attention?


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## izy (Jul 11, 2022)

@VuurVOS , OC-ing my ram just now and i had to reset my bios (i have the "pulled" bios V3.E on b450 tomahawk max, i didnt update to the new one yet) , all my saved profiles are still there after the reset (in ROM).

About my ram OC , seems to be stable with 1.15 SoC in bios (it reports 1.1313 in ZT) and 1.45v dram (i did try with 1.43v and had errors), this is what i end up with and is stable so far , passed 1 cycle of TM5 extreme ( i think it was 1 hour ) and no crash or reboots so far. Did some short game testing in 3 titles and didnt notice any fps uplift (one of them was World of Warcraft that as u know is cpu bound but hard to benchmark) so i am not sure if the extra + 0.1v on ram and SoC worth or if its safe 24/7 but im pretty happy with the results considering this RAM was cheap, i have another kit (same version) in my other system and ill check if it can hold this OC with 4 sticks and ill buy some other kit for my other system if it does.


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## clobby (Jul 12, 2022)

EDIT:  They added 1206c AGESA the next morning so I look to be good. 

They took away all the recent B450 Tomahawk (plain jane one) BIOS updates.  I have a Ryzen 7 5800x in mine, and I went to upgrade to the 5800x3d, and found they even removed the BIOS I have on my board.  I imagine no one has the 1.2.06 AGESA BIOS for this board huh?


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## The King (Jul 12, 2022)

izy said:


> @VuurVOS , OC-ing my ram just now and i had to reset my bios (i have the "pulled" bios V3.E on b450 tomahawk max, i didnt update to the new one yet) , all my saved profiles are still there after the reset (in ROM).
> 
> About my ram OC , seems to be stable with 1.15 SoC in bios (it reports 1.1313 in ZT) and 1.45v dram (i did try with 1.43v and had errors), this is what i end up with and is stable so far , passed 1 cycle of TM5 extreme ( i think it was 1 hour ) and no crash or reboots so far. Did some short game testing in 3 titles and didnt notice any fps uplift (one of them was World of Warcraft that as u know is cpu bound but hard to benchmark) so i am not sure if the extra + 0.1v on ram and SoC worth or if its safe 24/7 but im pretty happy with the results considering this RAM was cheap, i have another kit (same version) in my other system and ill check if it can hold this OC with 4 sticks and ill buy some other kit for my other system if it does.
> View attachment 254427


You only adjusted your primary timings where noticeable performance can come is from lowering sub timings which you have not done at all.
If you change the settings in my above post and run AIDA64 again you would should see some good improvements in Read /write /copy and latency.
My 1700X has far worse latency than what ZEN 2 or ZEN 3 will have.





This YT video by BZ will explain why sub timings are more important than CL and primary timings when it comes to performance.


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## izy (Jul 12, 2022)

The King said:


> You only adjusted your primary timings where noticeable performance can come is from lowering sub timings which you have not done at all.
> If you change the settings in my above post and run AIDA64 again you would should see some good improvements in Read /write /copy and latency.
> My 1700X has far worse latency than what ZEN 2 or ZEN 3 will have.
> 
> ...


Write bandwidth for Zen 2 is lower than with other cpus , i changed trrds and trrdl and gained some performance but when lowering others i was getting errors , ill play a bit more with the subtimings and see what i can get. With the current settings i get 67ns in aida.


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

I am sitting with the "pulled" bios for now till i see some reviews from people that tried the new BIOS as it seems to be stable for me. I feel that my cpu is a bit slower with this bios than older ones but my ram OC seems better. I will go on this system with an 5800x soon but its fun to tweak a bit the 3700x too , the bad part is that testing the RAM takes a long time.
My RAM OC looks like this now , under 66ns in AIDA, im still not happy with the 1.45v (with lower voltage i get some errors) but its stable with no errors. Ill try to go lower frequency CL 14 or same frequency  CL 15 - 16 and see if i can get away with 1.4v and the same performance. ( bl8g36c16u4b.m8fe1 -> for google indexing if someone else is looking to oc same type of ram)


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)




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## The King (Jul 14, 2022)

izy said:


> I am sitting with the "pulled" bios for now till i see some reviews from people that tried the new BIOS as it seems to be stable for me. I feel that my cpu is a bit slower with this bios than older ones but my ram OC seems better. I will go on this system with an 5800x soon but its fun to tweak a bit the 3700x too , the bad part is that testing the RAM takes a long time.
> My RAM OC looks like this now , under 66ns in AIDA, im still not happy with the 1.45v (with lower voltage i get some errors) but its stable with no errors. Ill try to go lower frequency CL 14 or same frequency  CL 15 - 16 and see if i can get away with 1.4v and the same performance. ( bl8g36c16u4b.m8fe1 -> for google indexing if someone else is looking to oc same type of ram)
> 
> View attachment 254682View attachment 254683


Your TWR And RTP is off 13/12 is not good.
Try 12/6 or 12/8 a safe high TWR and RTP is 16/8


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

izy said:


> I am sitting with the "pulled" bios for now till i see some reviews from people that tried the new BIOS as it seems to be stable for me. I feel that my cpu is a bit slower with this bios than older ones but my ram OC seems better. I will go on this system with an 5800x soon but its fun to tweak a bit the 3700x too , the bad part is that testing the RAM takes a long time.
> My RAM OC looks like this now , under 66ns in AIDA, im still not happy with the 1.45v (with lower voltage i get some errors) but its stable with no errors. Ill try to go lower frequency CL 14 or same frequency  CL 15 - 16 and see if i can get away with 1.4v and the same performance. ( bl8g36c16u4b.m8fe1 -> for google indexing if someone else is looking to oc same type of ram)
> 
> View attachment 254682View attachment 254683


Are we on the same bios, I'm well confused.


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Are we on the same bios, I'm well confused.


Confused in what way? I am on V3.E.


The King said:


> Your TWR And RTP is off 13/12 is not good.
> Try 12/6 or 12/8 a safe high TWR and RTP is 16/8


I had it with lower TWR / RTP and in a long TM5 test i had some errors ( i dont remember what were my values there ) and i just changed them to some random values as wasnt sure which of them caused the errors (the performance was the same) but ill try that too as ive changed them at the same time on my last test.

Edit: They were 12/6 , so ill try 12/8, i am guessing that RTP was the problem.


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

izy said:


> Confused in what way? I am on V3.E.
> 
> I had it with lower TWR / RTP and in a long TM5 test i had some errors ( i dont remember what were my values there ) and i just changed them to some random values as wasnt sure which of them caused the errors but ill try that too as ive changed them at the same time on my last test.


Combo AM4v2PI 1.2.0.7 That's the same but I'm on 2.GO but a different mobo too.  Sorry noob moment once again.


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Combo AM4v2PI 1.2.0.7 That's the same but I'm on 2.GO but a different mobo too.  Sorry noob moment once again.


Well the "pulled" BIOS and the new BIOS are both with AM4v2PI 1.2.0.7 (same changelog, its more like an replacement than an update) and i dont know why they pulled it in the first place , they probably changed something that was causing problems for some but i guess we will never know. Do you have the bios with AM4v2PI 1.2.0.7 released this month or the older "pulled" one from May ?


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

Must be the "pulled" one can't find it on the website.  Maybe that why my timings are so poop compared to other peoples?


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Must be the "pulled" one can't find it on the website.  Maybe that why my timings are so poop compared to other peoples?


On auto my timings were bad too, i changed them manually, maybe your ram can do even better than mine if you tweak them. I saw some reddit posts that some people has stability issues because of the ram with the "pulled" bios but i guess every system is a bit different, mine seems stable. (you have them at higher frequency , my CPU refuses to boot at 3800mhz)


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

izy said:


> On auto my timings were bad too, i changed them manually, maybe your ram can do even better than mine if you tweak them. I saw some reddit posts that some people has stability issues because of the ram with the "pulled" bios but i guess every system is a bit different, mine seems stable. (you have them at higher frequency , my CPU refuses to boot at 3800mhz)


Believe me, my timings are on the edge!  Had some lovely people help me a lot in here.  https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/ocing-my-ram.296395/ Mine are stable been TestMem5'd a few times and no errors.  Your ram isn't Corsair Vengeance LPX is it?  I've got that but 2 X 16GB Micron B die which are good apparently.


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Believe me, my timings are on the edge!  Had some lovely people help me a lot in here.  https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/ocing-my-ram.296395/ Mine are stable been TestMem5'd a few times and no errors.  Your ram isn't Corsair Vengeance LPX is it?  I've got that but 2 X 16GB Micron B die which are good apparently.


Oh , i thought they are Samsung B die , i have Micron E die , you should update your BIOS to the new one and see if it can do any better , as i said .. some people on reddit had RAM / instability problems with this "pulled" bios version and maybe this new one has better ram support, who knows.


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

izy said:


> Oh , i thought they are Samsung B die , i have Micron E die , you should update your BIOS to the new one and see if it can do any better , as i said .. some people on reddit had RAM / instability problems with this "pulled" bios version and maybe this new one has better ram support, who knows.


What the beta? I might try it and see if the ram has anything else to give with some assistance.  I know, you go first and let me know!


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## mstenholm (Jul 14, 2022)

To bring this thread back to, almost, topic. My 470X MSI got a “new” beta dated two days back. It was pull along with the 450Bs. I just noticed so no testing if I can get better stability on my RAM.


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

I will try the new one in the next days , my CPU doesnt want to do 1900 FCLK no matter what i do but its probably a bad cpu and not the bios , who knows.
@The King 12/6 or 12/8  both with errors , for some reason 13/12 worked fine , im testing 16/8 now.


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

When you update bios it deletes your saved Bios settings yes?


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> When you update bios it deletes your saved Bios settings yes?


Yes and to be on the safe side you should load default settings before flashing (but i think MSI boards are loading defaults anyway when you enter mflash )


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

Hmm.  Time to take some piccys first then.  Fuck it, I'll be guinea pig.


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Hmm.  Time to take some piccys first then.  Fuck it, I'll be guinea pig.


Good luck then , i am waiting for the results  , usually i am just saving a pic of ZenTimings on my phone.


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

I sat on the sofa with my tablet and passed out... I'm getting old...  Commencing bios launch!

Hate this bit...



Well I'm back with these timings from MSI "Memory Try It"


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## izy (Jul 14, 2022)

tRFC seems huge  you will have to tweak the timings to see if anything changed in better or not.


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## Blaeza (Jul 14, 2022)

I know and I'm dreading it.


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## izy (Jul 16, 2022)

I flashed the last bios too and nothing seems changed, the memory try it or xmp are getting same loose timings. I think that my cpu boosts a bit better now (tested only in cpu-z so far) but still seems lower than with 1.0.0.6b, ill have to do more testing.

Memory try it cl14 3600mhz with the new bios (manual voltage to 1.45) .


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## Blaeza (Jul 16, 2022)

I was left alone with memory...


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## izy (Jul 16, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I was left alone with memory...


This happens with your old ram OC settings? For me its all the same ,ive increased the ProcODT to 40ohm and everything is stable at 3733 cl 14 so far but my cpu-z score decreased for some reason, ill have to check that out why.


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## Blaeza (Jul 16, 2022)

Don't know where you are but the heat isn't going to help benchmarks.


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## izy (Jul 16, 2022)

In cpu-z benchmark i get a max temp of 72C and i was scoring 510-515 single and 5500multi and now its like 507 single and 5400-5450 multi, temp can be a problem but i dont think the room temps are higher than before , im keeping an undervolt of 0,25 on the cpu, feels like im getting worse score with an higher RAM OC (or because of the BIOS) , in PYPRIME benchmark with this settings im getting 1 second better benchmark or so but worse in cpu-z.


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## Blaeza (Jul 16, 2022)

izy said:


> In cpu-z benchmark i get a max temp of 72C and i was scoring 510-515 single and 5500multi and now its like 507 single and 5400-5450 multi, temp can be a problem but i dont think the room temps are higher than before , im keeping an undervolt of 0,25 on the cpu.


I'm undervolted to 1.25625, getting 515-520 single and 4410 multi.  I've had better results when it was cool in the morning.


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## izy (Jul 16, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I'm undervolted to 1.25625, getting 515-520 single and 4410 multi.  I've had better results when it was cool in the morning.


I am using an offset for undervolting and yeah i think my single should be 515+ as it was before with some older BIOS, PBO doesnt help at all so i dont have it enabled. The problem can be with the temp or maybe my CPU doesnt like the increased FCLK .
Edit: PPT and EDC are 100% during the benchmark , ill have to tweak them a bit and see if that helps. (maybe they changed some default voltages in this BIOS version and my offset has to be higher or lower) 
PPT 88W , EDC 90A


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## Blaeza (Jul 16, 2022)

izy said:


> I am using an offset for undervolting and yeah i think my single should be 515+ as it was before with some older BIOS, PBO doesnt help at all so i dont have it enabled. The problem can be with the temp or maybe my CPU doesnt like the increased FCLK .





Jinxed me, lmao.


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## izy (Jul 16, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> View attachment 254944Jinxed me, lmao.


I think its a temp problem as you said , OC-ing my ram had to increase the vsoc voltage by a bit and i think that is adding more heat , lowering the EDC as low as 60 gives me better results , 5480 multi , 515-6 single.


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## Blaeza (Jul 16, 2022)

Wait until Monday and Tuesday... I might give the computer a rest and watch some TV.  No benchmark is useful.  35C/37C


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## izy (Jul 16, 2022)

I enabled PBO , +50 autoOC , scalar 5x , -0.075 vcore offset , EDC 75 A (rest of the settings you can see them in the picture) and it seems i got my performance back but with my old settings without PBO the performance was worse with this BIOS , temps could be a problem but im pretty sure the stock performance was lower.


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## Mussels (Jul 17, 2022)

The King said:


> I dont like the fact he MSI changed the default bootup option to UEFI and did not leave it on CSM.
> 
> How do they expect people with older GPUs to go into the BIOS and change that!
> 
> Anyway rant over. Im running 1.2.0.7 on a B450M Mortar Max and its been problem free and performance seems better than 1.2.0.6C


It's a requirement for windows 11
To be honest, apart from some odd cards like the AMD RX 5x0 cards that had missing UEFI for no real reason, any card old enough to not have UEFI support is likely too old to be officially compatible with the platform.

Nvidias 600 *GTX *and newer have UEFI (10 years old)
AMD's 7750 and above had UEFI (Also 10 years old, both from 2012)


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## İsmailTPC_Hastanesi (Jul 28, 2022)

Please be careful when updating MSI similar model motherboard bios.
Because the BIOS chips on the motherboard such as B450 TOMAHAWK are not ordinary, even if you plug them into Eeprom, they can burn out immediately.
An interesting chip with a 1.8v Vcc leg.
WINBOND W25Q128 Flash Memory Chip 128Mbit 16MB








						MSI Scampers to Launch New AMD 400-series Motherboards with 256Mb BIOS Chips
					

Our Monday story chronicled how MSI inadvertently erred in giving many of its AMD 400-series chipset motherboards 128 Mbit (16-megabyte) SPI flash ROM chips instead of larger 256 Mbit (32-megabyte) ones, which nearly jeopardized the company's "Zen 2" support deployment, forcing it to greatly...




					www.techpowerup.com
				



Here "@Assimilator" has touched on this subject a bit, but no one has even taken it into account.
Finding this chip may pose a problem.


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## izy (Jul 28, 2022)

Mussels said:


> It's a requirement for windows 11
> To be honest, apart from some odd cards like the AMD RX 5x0 cards that had missing UEFI for no real reason, any card old enough to not have UEFI support is likely too old to be officially compatible with the platform.
> 
> Nvidias 600 *GTX *and newer have UEFI (10 years old)
> AMD's 7750 and above had UEFI (Also 10 years old, both from 2012)


You can update GOP for older cards and its pretty simple.








						AMD and Nvidia GOP update (No requests, DIY)
					

I’m not really the guy to run on unlimited supply of patience, so this will be more a mix of tutorial, tool to do the job for you, assistance (“as long as you don’t insist with unlimited/unrelated questions” kind) and ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEES. Users should read this again, I am not offering any...




					winraid.level1techs.com


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## izy (Aug 25, 2022)

New stable bios (last one was BETA)

Removed Bios:
B450 TOMAHAWK MAX (MS-7C02) V3.E BIOS Release
2. This BIOS fixes the following problem of the previous version:
- Update to AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7.
- Change the default setting of Secure Boot.
Release Date: 2022-06-17

BETA bios (also removed):
B450 TOMAHAWK MAX (MS-7C02) V3.F1 BIOS Release - (BETA)
2. This BIOS fixes the following problem of the previous version:
- Update to AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7.
- Change the default setting of Secure Boot.
Release Date: 2022-07-05

New BIOS:
B450 TOMAHAWK MAX (MS-7C02) V3.F BIOS Release (V3.F0)
2. This BIOS fixes the following problem of the previous version:
- Update to AGESA ComboAm4v2PI 1.2.0.7.
- Change the default setting of Secure Boot.
Release Date: 2022-08-12


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## freeagent (Aug 25, 2022)

Just curious, if you don’t have X3D, why would you want 1207?

Edit:

Or 1206 for that matter.


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## izy (Aug 25, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Just curious, if you don’t have X3D, why would you want 1207?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Or 1206 for that matter.


Opened the topic for who has one or wants to buy one + ram oc can be better with a newer bios, some people were complaining about stability with the bios that MSI removed even it was released as stable version.


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## Blaeza (Aug 25, 2022)

I downloaded it 2 days ago to get me off that beta bios.  Not tried ocing anything since though.


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## freeagent (Aug 25, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> Not tried ocing anything since though


Eww Stock?

I feel like I don't know you anymore


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## izy (Aug 25, 2022)

Blaeza said:


> I downloaded it 2 days ago to get me off that beta bios.  Not tried ocing anything since though.


I think its the same as the BETA and they only removed the "BETA" from the description. If anything changed (better OC / RAM OC or something) let me know , im lazy to reconfigure the BIOS at the moment.


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## Blaeza (Aug 25, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Eww Stock?
> 
> I feel like I don't know you anymore


Sorry, my ram is OC'd but I've not tried anything else at all.  But I just can't be assed at the moment.  I have an endless hankering for a 6800XT or 6750XT with a free Ducky keyboard, but the funds are not at that level at the moment.


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## Mussels (Aug 29, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Just curious, if you don’t have X3D, why would you want 1207?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Or 1206 for that matter.


TPM fix, mostly

Despite breaking my curve optimiser, these new BIOSes run a lot colder for me, so stock gets a performance boost (not that i'm on stock)


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