# Electric costs to run the crunchers and folding PCs....



## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

It seems to me that recently everywhere and everyone is going to be affected by the increases in costs of electric..  I thought I'd share mine currently (its not showing what it will be, but I'll try to dig that out and update the post with it 

So, currently electric and gas costs -






And here we are with the new costs -





They are putting up my monthly bill as I pay direct debit and so on, from £180 to £265...  I've started to use less as if the solar isn't producing then things don't go on for the folding..  I mean, running this 5950X RTX 3090 it'll chew through around 550w no problems when folding (no crunching...) and that's without power limiting the GPU as well, so stock settings ...   I think idling whilst I'm typing this, I can see it pulling about the 175w or so...  Thank god for my mini PC..  That pulls 6 to 12w when in use !!

Here's something I did just to see what the differences would be costing me...





So just for reference...

321 was how many electric units I used during Feburary (I believe it was 1st to the 28th??) so first 3 calculators are the current prices, then the newer prices, then the difference in cost, so nearly 40% increase, that was just for electric, never bothered with gas as that's a little harder to work out but not impossible....

If anyone else wishes to share or anything, please post away  Just thought I would and if I see tumble weeds in the thread, I can always delete it     And apologies as always, but wasn't sure if to put it in FAH or WCG threads.....??


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## Dr_b_ (Mar 21, 2022)

What is meant by Standing Charge?


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

Standing charge is something they charge us over in the UK (I presume else where also??) for the 'use' of the cables/pipes in the ground connected to the property...  God only knows why they are doubling it for the electric and then only adding on 1.1p a day for the gas..  Heaven only knows....  I've never understood that charge.....


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 21, 2022)

Yikes Phil glad I'm not in blighty now. They have you by the balls there really, the UK doesn't get enough sunshine to show the true possibilities of solar.
I'm currently thinking very hard about swapping my servers and network gear over to DC-DC power supplies and running it all off solar.
Not only to save costs but also the grid here isn't what you would call stable and as the weather starts to enter it's extreme months here, power cuts will be a regular occurrence (too rainy= power cut, too hot= power cut) don't really want to deal with that especially since 70% of the house is run via my server now (lights, air-conditioning, CCTV and so on all goes to the sever for control).

 Although it's still nothing compared to the west, utilities and commodities are on the rise here fuel is almost at £1 a litre(doubled in the past few years) same for electricity bills. 

My only worry is batteries, and the sheer mass of them I would need to run the house totally off grid.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 21, 2022)

Here's the Dutch tariffs for me... I always change my contract after winter so I never get surprised if Winter is Coming and/or if shit happens like it did just now and has done a few times before. Except not to these extremes. Man am I happy for playing this market that way... I think I just saved 1500 euro this winter compared to variable tariffs by just having the contract end anywhere through december > today...

We have fixed costs as well but I'm just going to give the rough indication as the government is also still stepping in with more cost reduction measures (reduced energy tax etc.), but they likely won't touch price per unit a lot:

Current tariff electric rounds off to €0,23/kWh.
New tariff (since feb'22, I'm getting it 3rd of April): €0,61/kWh  
But.... solar panels... I get the exact same amount back for production... the car charges on my meter and I get that back too on my bank account, so net usage is down to about 5 euro per month  (it was this year). This stuff really pays off now as I get my daily usage from the panels too.

As for running the house off grid... I don't think its the best way forward. Energy has always been about a smart mix, that will likely intensify further, become more of a mesh network with every home on a battery to add to balancing the load. You already have the power lines, so why not use them. What we see in NL is that there is lots of excess energy but transport is an issue and we have the energy at the wrong moments in time each day. All you really need is a way to store _excess _energy on a larger scale. And when you know how much excess energy there is, you can start producing/importing less in places like coal plants and gas terminals. Excess energy also implies that hydrogen energy as a storage medium becomes feasible, yes you need more energy to create it, but when its there, why not, and then you won't need the batteries. Hydrogen is fully scalable.

Gas is hilarious if it wasn't so horrible. Current: €0,69/m3
New: €2,27/m3

At least we can welcome a LOT of graphics cards in the second hand market soon... I'm just trying to see the upsides here 
Another upside: the ROI of 'green' improvements to your home is shortened by a number of years. We're definitely going to get a budget to build/renovate soon.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 21, 2022)

phill said:


> It seems to me that recently everywhere and everyone is going to be affected by the increases in costs of electric..  I thought I'd share mine currently (its not showing what it will be, but I'll try to dig that out and update the post with it
> 
> So, currently electric and gas costs -
> 
> ...



you can thank the miners.  supply and demand.  crypto is ruining the world.


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> you can thank the miners.  supply and demand.  crypto is ruining the world.


I think we are way beyond that right now...   I think personally, this is a whole new level of stupid....   I'll leave the post there but please, no more....

But still...  


ThaiTaffy said:


> Yikes Phil glad I'm not in blighty now. They have you by the balls there really, the UK doesn't get enough sunshine to show the true possibilities of solar.
> I'm currently thinking very hard about swapping my servers and network gear over to DC-DC power supplies and running it all off solar.
> Not only to save costs but also the grid here isn't what you would call stable and as the weather starts to enter it's extreme months here, power cuts will be a regular occurrence (too rainy= power cut, too hot= power cut) don't really want to deal with that especially since 70% of the house is run via my server now (lights, air-conditioning, CCTV and so on all goes to the sever for control).
> 
> ...


Oh you should see some of the fixed tariffs, I've seen one for gas and electric for an average user - £500 or so a month...  Just for gas and electric??  May as well start living in a box....  At least you'll have free air con....


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

I've said nothing about anyone being stupid, but I don't believe as most of the crypto is actually down when I last looked that its still as much of an issue as it once was.  The profitablity, the difficulty, the pay back, its all gone up and its not helping anyone. 
I'm sure as the sky is somewhat blue today, that someone will be caught 'stealing' electric and all the rest of it to help with their mining and all the rest of it, but this thread had nothing to do with mining or any theories in why its going up.  It was purely a here's my electric prices, this is what I'm having to pay for my crunching and folding to try and help people.  Mining and Ukraine simply has no real place in the thread at all.


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## Tatty_One (Mar 21, 2022)

Apparently the global shortage of natural gas, aside from the current conflict is because there was not enough wind/solar in the world last year so much less wind energy, that in turn increases electricity demand as it is used to produce the gas, as Phill says, next month energy prices in the UK will have doubled in a year, this explains it better than I could ......................

*What caused the gas crisis?*​_Natural gas prices have soared to record highs in Europe because of tight supplies ahead of winter. In August alone, they rose by more than 70 per cent, pushing some smaller energy suppliers and industrial firms out of business.

A prolonged cold winter over 2020-2021 that drained natural gas storage raised concerns about supplies.

Though storage would usually be refilled during summer months when demand is slow, it has not happened at its normal pace in 2021.

Lower solar and wind output is another factor in the price hike. With the UK and Europe phasing out coal plants in recent years, less windy weather in recent months has lowered their contribution to the grid, meaning that demand for natural gas has increased.

Russia has been sending less gas to Europe, with exports this year dropping to around one-fifth of pre-pandemic levels despite a rebound in demand and low stockpiles in the continent.
While some believe the country curbed its foreign supply in order to refill its own storage, others believe it is trying to pressure European governments into approving its controversial Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline._


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## Space Lynx (Mar 21, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> Apparently the global shortage of natural gas, aside from the current conflict is because there was not enough wind/solar in the world last year so much less wind energy, that in turn increases electricity demand as it is used to produce the gas, as Phill says, next month energy prices in the UK will have doubled in a year, this explains it better than I could ......................
> 
> *What caused the gas crisis?*​_Natural gas prices have soared to record highs in Europe because of tight supplies ahead of winter. In August alone, they rose by more than 70 per cent, pushing some smaller energy suppliers and industrial firms out of business.
> 
> ...



Let's hope Bill Gates new nuclear power plant in Wyoming works well, so others will adopt it, its long time overdue for gas to be retired.


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> Apparently the global shortage of natural gas, aside from the current conflict is because there was not enough wind/solar in the world last year so much less wind energy, that in turn increases electricity demand as it is used to produce the gas, as Phill says, next month energy prices in the UK will have doubled in a year, this explains it better than I could ......................
> 
> *What caused the gas crisis?*​_Natural gas prices have soared to record highs in Europe because of tight supplies ahead of winter. In August alone, they rose by more than 70 per cent, pushing some smaller energy suppliers and industrial firms out of business.
> 
> ...


Also from what I read @Tatty_One is that we hardly rely on Russia and Ukraine for the gas supply (if what I have been reading is correct, it says about 3% for the UK) but again it wasn't really much of a I'm digging into why things are going up, I'm just going with the, here's the prices, what are yours like type situ    I've had to cut back, I can't and don't wish to spend out £300 on electric and gas bills each month.  Things for me have had to change.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 21, 2022)

phill said:


> Also from what I read @Tatty_One is that we hardly rely on Russia and Ukraine for the gas supply (if what I have been reading is correct, it says about 3% for the UK) but again it wasn't really much of a I'm digging into why things are going up, I'm just going with the, here's the prices, what are yours like type situ    I've had to cut back, I can't and don't wish to spend out £300 on electric and gas bills each month.  Things for me have had to change.



Russia's direct supply to USA or UK is irrelevant, it is globalized economy, OPEC+ sets all the prices regardless of who imports what from who - so if Russia sends 30% oil to some other country, well thats hurts everyone in the system of trade, its the danger of a globalized economy becoming to intertwined, and we are seeing that now. Some trade is good, but too much is not, as we are now seeing. Should instead be a healthy balance of sovereign sustainability (nuclear/wind/solar) and trade, politicians get a nice boost of ego inflation when they are rubbin shoulders at a world stage level, which is why globalization got out of hand to begin with, and lost its balance.  Ego blinds all men, which is why the ancient philosophers were much smarter than we give them credit for, they knew how to dampen ego, for they knew how dangerous it could be.


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

We are definitely too reliant on other countries for much more than we should be, but again, we seem to be going off course a little for the point of the thread  

Its frustrating for everyone not being able to do what they where used to and such, but as always times change and things move on, for better or worse.  Now its just a case of seeing what the outcome is    Hopefully, we'll be 'back to normal' sooner rather than later...  Whatever normal is nowadays....

So everyone, electric (not so much gas prices....) how are you all affected with the levels of Crunching and Folding you can do??


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## Tatty_One (Mar 21, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> Russia's direct supply to USA or UK is irrelevant, it is globalized economy, OPEC+ sets all the prices regardless of who imports what from who - so if Russia sends 30% oil to some other country, well thats hurts everyone in the system of trade, its the danger of a globalized economy becoming to intertwined, and we are seeing that now. Some trade is good, but too much is not, as we are now seeing. Should instead be a healthy balance of sovereign sustainability (nuclear/wind/solar) and trade, politicians get a nice boost of ego inflation when they are rubbin shoulders at a world stage level, which is why globalization got out of hand to begin with, and lost its balance.  Ego blinds all men, which is why the ancient philosophers were much smarter than we give them credit for, they knew how to dampen ego, for they knew how dangerous it could be.


We are in danger of venturing off topic here as this thread is energy prices and their relation to Folding costs and I am partly to blame for that but OPEC sets global crude prices, not natural gas/electricity where in contrast to oil tends not to have a global but a regional price.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 21, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> We are in danger of venturing off topic here as this thread is energy prices and their relation to Folding costs and I am partly to blame for that but OPEC sets global crude prices, not natural gas/electricity where in contrast to oil tends not to have a global but a regional price.



it's all connected though due to trade routes from Russia and those two being major players in their trade line up, that's all I was trying to point out in a general sense


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## trog100 (Mar 21, 2022)

i think i am looking at around £400 a month for my electricity bills from now on.. i am using around 2kw per hour running mining rigs i think i will keep running them even though current profitability is very low..

i do have maybe 8K per day of solar power coming in when the sun shines.. this should go up during the summer months..

the cost of energy is going to be a problem.. 

trog


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

trog100 said:


> i think i am looking at around £400 a month for my electricity bills from now on.. i am using around 2kw per hour running mining rigs i think i will keep running them even though current profitability is very low..
> 
> i do have maybe 8K per day of solar power coming in when the sun shines.. this should go up during the summer months..
> 
> ...


I remember those days well..  Stopped back in June/July last year because the profitability went down and it was costing too much to run for the profit.  We did a check from my mates prices to the ones I was paying, it was something like 60% profit for me, compared to 500% or so profit for him.  Yeah, not going to take cash out to cover that sort of difference!!  
Even with solar the hit on the electric is heavy, more so winter/spring months.  

What size array do you have @trog100 ??


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## trog100 (Mar 21, 2022)

phill said:


> I remember those days well..  Stopped back in June/July last year because the profitability went down and it was costing too much to run for the profit.  We did a check from my mates prices to the ones I was paying, it was something like 60% profit for me, compared to 500% or so profit for him.  Yeah, not going to take cash out to cover that sort of difference!!
> Even with solar the hit on the electric is heavy, more so winter/spring months.
> 
> What size array do you have @trog100 ??


 i have 20 x 150 watt panels on two of my garden sheds.. these feed into 8 x 100ah lithium batteries which feed a 3000 watt inverter.. currently (mid march) when the sun is shining i am seeing about 1400 watts going into the battery bank.. over say six hours this would be 8400 watts.. 

trog


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

trog100 said:


> i have 20 x 150 watt panels on two of my garden sheds.. these feed into 8 x 100ah lithium batteries which feed a 3000 watt inverter.. currently (mid march) when the sun is shining i am seeing about 1400 watts going into the battery bank.. over say six hours this would be 8400 watts..
> 
> trog


Very nice mate    Must help with the PCs being on all the time    I've 123 x 305w panels and a 4kW array for the house, couldn't fit any more on the roof and bought it back in June (ish) 2017.  Best thing I've ever done for the house.  Play my cards right, from about 10pm till 8 to 9am, I can use about 2kW, which isn't so bad    Doesn't quite give me the need for batteries though, not yet  

I'm hoping to see my payments drop if I'm honest now we are starting to get the better weather.....


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## 80-watt Hamster (Mar 21, 2022)

I haven't been watching my energy bill all that closely; perhaps it's time to do so.

EDIT:


MonthElectric $/KWhGas $/unit2021-020.1160.5102022-020.1191.022

So holding steady on electric (maybe because I don't think we have many gas-fired plants in the US?), but 2X on gas.  I'm fortunate enough to be in the northern hemisphere, and that my only gas appliance is the furnace, so my costs will normalize as the weather warms.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> I haven't been watching my energy bill all that closely; perhaps it's time to do so.


I have a homemade extremely accurate meter fitted at the house and I can tell you that it doesn't help much switch off a light here a fan there, your gonna use juice no matter what your better watching the products you buy and try to get the most energy efficient.


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## Deleted member 202104 (Mar 21, 2022)

Here's current prices for where I live.





When I was crunching, I was using about 430 kWh per month for the three PCs.  Each had a draw under load of roughly 200w.  WCG alone blew through my baseline amount (Tier 1).

I do have solar, but for the last two years I've produced less due to wildfires in the area that literally blocked out the sun for almost two months each year.

Between energy costs, and the fact that WCG doesn't seem to think their work is critical enough that a 2+ month downtime to move some servers is a big deal, crunching is over for me.


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## freeagent (Mar 21, 2022)

I don’t have the numbers in front of me as I am at the shop, but it did go up significantly, with another bump coming soon, as well as another carbon tax bump. Not only has hydro gone up, food and everything else has as well.

Sad days ahead


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## R-T-B (Mar 21, 2022)

Yep even here in the Pacific Northwest energy costs are up.  Even cheap hydro land is feeling it.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Mar 21, 2022)

weekendgeek said:


> Between energy costs, and the fact that WCG doesn't seem to think their work is critical enough that a 2+ month downtime to move some servers is a big deal, crunching is over for me.



That's a very uncharitable way of looking at it. We have no way of knowing what kind of resources are available to them.


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## Dr_b_ (Mar 21, 2022)

phill said:


> Standing charge is something they charge us over in the UK (I presume else where also??) for the 'use' of the cables/pipes in the ground connected to the property...  God only knows why they are doubling it for the electric and then only adding on 1.1p a day for the gas..  Heaven only knows....  I've never understood that charge.....


Ahh the fees to deliver the power, they break it down for us like this:

Distribution Service
Generation
Transmission
Fuel
And a plethora of other charges, fees and taxes.  its a wonder anyone has money left after paying it


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## Tatty_One (Mar 21, 2022)

Dr_b_ said:


> Ahh the fees to deliver the power, they break it down for us like this:
> 
> Distribution Service
> Generation
> ...


In the UK it is described as a fee to "access energy" a bit like a telephone line rental that you need for broadband even though you pay for broadband here separately. In essence it's for maintenance and it also offsets the company's bill to the government for levies, it's still a rip off because if you go on holiday for a few weeks and use no energy you still have to pay the standing charge


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## trog100 (Mar 21, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> In the UK it is described as a fee to "access energy" a bit like a telephone line rental that you need for broadband even though you pay for broadband here separately. In essence it's for maintenance and it also offsets the company's bill to the government for levies, it's still a rip off because if you go on holiday for a few weeks and use no energy you still have to pay the standing charge



i did read recently that 25% of the UK bill goes on "green" subsidies.. 

trog


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## Tatty_One (Mar 21, 2022)

trog100 said:


> i did read recently that 25% of the UK bill goes on "green" subsidies..
> 
> trog


And that is exactly the thing, energy companies are set targets by government, whether they be "green" related or others relating to performance, if they fail to meet them we pay the fines through the standing charge, so what incentive is there for these companies to actually hit those targets?


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## bogmali (Mar 21, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> We are in danger of venturing off topic here as this thread is energy prices and their relation to Folding costs


Someone already has by inserting the crypto topic........thread cleansed


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## HammerON (Mar 21, 2022)

Here is last month's electric bill:
Looks like with the added COPA, it costs me about $.23677 per kilowatt hour.





Here is my gas bill for last month.  Gas is normally not too bad.


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## phill (Mar 21, 2022)

Thanks for all the replies guys    It's nice to have a bit of chatter in the threads 

Is there anyone other than @weekendgeek who might be 'throwing in the towel' for crunching due to rising costs?


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## freeagent (Mar 22, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> erhaps globalization has reached its tentacles even in places I could not imagine...


Yes, it puts the global in globalization 

In my province we generate so much power, that we sell a ton of it to the states. But yet through mismanagement we found ourselves here. Manitoba Hydro reported more people are in arrears this year than last.. well yeah no shit. Looks like we are all being bent over. 425 Beefeater bucks.. yikes.. not envious!


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## phill (Mar 23, 2022)

@freeagent - do you have Solar panels or anything like that at all for your home?


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## freeagent (Mar 23, 2022)

phill said:


> @freeagent - do you have Solar panels or anything like that at all for your home?



Negatory 

I might have to look into something like that though.. I do know one person here in the city who uses them at home and the cabin. But he lives on the outskirts of the city and has 20 acres Mr. Moneybags. He is a pretty clever fellow, and I used to work for him.


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## phill (Mar 23, 2022)

I do believe they have become a rather sort after part to a home now... All I need now is a bigger array and a bit more sun, we'd be on a winner!!


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## trog100 (Mar 23, 2022)

phill said:


> I do believe they have become a rather sort after part to a home now... All I need now is a bigger array and a bit more sun, we'd be on a winner!!



i think energy of all sort is going to be in short supply for quite some time phill.. it just cost me £110 quid to fill my trucks diesel tank up yesterday.. ouch..

as for solar it will take a few years for me to get my return on investment back.. its not a short term thing.. having said that it does provide a nice back up if the grid goes down which is worth something.. 

trog


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## tabascosauz (Mar 23, 2022)

HammerON said:


> Here is last month's electric bill:
> Looks like with the added COPA, it costs me about $.23677 per kilowatt hour.
> 
> Here is my gas bill for last month.  Gas is normally not too bad.



Interesting. I looked at mine and it's generally $0.10/kwh I think. It's some complex rate where it increases past 1600kWh per two months or something, but only to $0.15. 91% hydro or something. I'll have to bring up last month's bill and work it out.

I'm glad I live here - gas is $1.89 and diesel $2.19 right now  running an EV is a lifesaver on $0.10 rates.

I was thinking of getting back into folding after seeing the recent team Ukraine thread, but sadly the grid is still really spotty these past 3 years  if the power goes out when running F@H, my UPS will probably implode. When I used to fold 8 years ago power was better on UBC campus, not so much now kinda out in the sticks



freeagent said:


> Negatory
> 
> I might have to look into something like that though.. I do know one person here in the city who uses them at home and the cabin. But he lives on the outskirts of the city and has 20 acres Mr. Moneybags. He is a pretty clever fellow, and I used to work for him.



Gotta leverage the advantage you have  I'd have better luck making a mini hydro dam in my roof gutter with the 366 days of rain I get


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## Outback Bronze (Mar 23, 2022)

G'day Phill,
Im on $0.26 AUD per KW with a $0.95 daily charge.
Not sure what my gas is but the bill was about $180 AUD for 3 months.
Water can be the killer here where I live in Perth if you want nice green grass.
You asked why they put the daily charge up. They know you can try and save power here and there and put solar up etc that can cut costs.
You can't save nothing if they put up the daily charge. Its a sneaky way for them to make more money.
Cheers.


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## phill (Mar 23, 2022)

Yeah if they can't make the cash from somewhere, they'll find another place to grab it from   It's a real damn shame...  I would like to think that when all the shortages go, things will change but I really don't believe they will which is a crying shame...

Thanks to everyone for posting in the thread    It's really great getting the feedback from other forum members about what they have or how they do these things


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## cvaldes (Mar 24, 2022)

It's important to note that participating in these crunching/folding efforts, you're not really donating computing assets, you're really donating electricity.

This is nothing new, it's been the same since the birth of distributed computing, like SETI@Home efforts from the Nineties.

The world has plenty of computing muscle, what it doesn't have is enough free electricity.

At least from the viewpoint of an American filing taxes, you are better off donating cash or fully appreciated negotiable securities to a charity rather than crunching/folding on your own PC.

Charities/larger organizations can buy resources at a far more advantageous price (computer gear, electricity, real estate, whatever) than an individual dealing with retail pricing.

And for the American Joe Consumer, at least a donation of cash/negotiable securities can be claimed as an income tax deduction. If you donate CPU cycles with your personal computer, you can't claim any of that. You are basically donating electricity at retail prices running on semiconductors paid at retail.

This is the same myopic behavior of retail cryptocurrency miners. They are better off buying crypto on the open market rather than spending money on electricity to mine it.

Rich people buy ETH on the open market, like buying cotton futures. Peasants mine it on their $1000 GPUs, like buying tractors, real estate, and fertilizer for their cotton fields.

Even if you had a solar array feeding excess power back into the grid, you're better off doing that rather than taking that "excess" power and mining/crunching/folding. The best thing consumers can do is to reduce overall usage.

The scientific organizations who run the research should be paying consumers to run distributed computing software if they run out of processing power. But that's not the case, they have plenty of CPUs, they just don't have the electricity budget. If Organization X wants to look for a cure, they should put CPUs in a place where electricity is very, Very, VERY cheap. And that's not in the typical suburban/urban Western Hemisphere.

Yeah, sure, you might think you are doing some benefit by crunching/folding on your home system but you are better off taking that money and donating it to a properly managed charity.


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## 80-watt Hamster (Mar 24, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> It's important to note that participating in these crunching/folding efforts, you're not really donating computing assets, you're really donating electricity.
> 
> This is nothing new, it's been the same since the birth of distributed computing, like SETI@Home efforts from the Nineties.
> 
> ...



Maybe, but that won't keep my bedroom and office warm in the winter.


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## phill (Aug 28, 2022)

Well thought I'd post in this thread again after I found it again......  

UK electric and gas prices are set to rise about 80% over what they currently are, so we'll be seeing prices rise for a typical usage up to £3700 a year compared to the £1970 last few months and then around the £1200 mark before hand...

I've seen some links and sites mention that this could hit £8000 a year...  
I might not be crunching all that much soon guys and gals.....


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## 80-watt Hamster (Aug 28, 2022)

phill said:


> Well thought I'd post in this thread again after I found it again......
> 
> UK electric and gas prices are set to rise about 80% over what they currently are, so we'll be seeing prices rise for a typical usage up to £3700 a year compared to the £1970 last few months and then around the £1200 mark before hand...
> 
> ...



Jeebus cripes, that's bananas.


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## dgianstefani (Aug 28, 2022)

We screwed ourselves by not setting policy based on science, but on popular politics instead. 

Bye bye chance for energy independence. 

Hello uncontrolled energy cost increases. 

Stares wistfully at the nuclear power that could have been...


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## trog100 (Aug 28, 2022)

phill said:


> Well thought I'd post in this thread again after I found it again......
> 
> UK electric and gas prices are set to rise about 80% over what they currently are, so we'll be seeing prices rise for a typical usage up to £3700 a year compared to the £1970 last few months and then around the £1200 mark before hand...
> 
> ...



its looking bad phil.. real bad.. Scottish power have already upped my monthly direct debits to over £500 quid a month..

it seems they can charge what they like irrespective of a customers ability or agreement to pay.. its a weird situation.. 

what i find wrong is the fact they can just do it.. whack the bills up to whatever they see fit with the customer having no say in the issue.. the customer cant say no..

trog


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## Outback Bronze (Aug 28, 2022)

phill said:


> Well thought I'd post in this thread again after I found it again......
> 
> UK electric and gas prices are set to rise about 80% over what they currently are, so we'll be seeing prices rise for a typical usage up to £3700 a year compared to the £1970 last few months and then around the £1200 mark before hand...
> 
> ...



That's bloody crazy Phil. My electricity bill went up .06c AUD and the supply charge up 0.025c.

I don't think my increased charges are going to break the bank but what the hell is with yours hey?


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## trog100 (Aug 28, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> That's bloody crazy Phil. My electricity bill went up .06c AUD and the supply charge up 0.025c.
> 
> I don't think my increased charges are going to break the bank but what the hell is with yours hey?



its connected to the Ukraine situation and western sanctions imposed on russia..  basically the price of wholesale gas has gone through the roof and is likely to remain this way for quite some time.. UK electricity is mostly produced by burning gas a lot of this gas comes from russia.. or should i say did do.. he he..

trog


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## Frick (Aug 28, 2022)

Outback Bronze said:


> That's bloody crazy Phil. My electricity bill went up .06c AUD and the supply charge up 0.025c.
> 
> I don't think my increased charges are going to break the bank but what the hell is with yours hey?



To add to the post above, Germany (and maybe other nations) have been basically replacing their nuclear plants (and maybe coal plants?) with gas plants, and wind farms. Burning gas is better than burning coal, and there has been strong pushes against nuclear for a long time. It worked ok until they couldn't buy gas anymore. This winter will be truly chaotic for big chunks of Europe. Droughts + inflation + power shortages + skyrockering power prices is a _really_ bad combo, even worse if the winter is colder than avarage. Personally I live in an area with abundant renewables (hydro+wind), so we are a massive exporter of power, meaning significantly lower prices than in the south of Sweden, not to mention the rest of Europe.


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## trog100 (Aug 28, 2022)

Frick said:


> To add to the post above, Germany (and maybe other nations) have been basically replacing their nuclear plants (and maybe coal plants?) with gas plants, and wind farms. Burning gas is better than burning coal, and there has been strong pushes against nuclear for a long time. It worked ok until they couldn't buy gas anymore. This winter will be truly chaotic for big chunks of Europe. Droughts + inflation + power shortages + skyrockering power prices is a _really_ bad combo, even worse if the winter is colder than avarage. Personally I live in an area with abundant renewables (hydro+wind), so we are a massive exporter of power, meaning significantly lower prices than in the south of Sweden, not to mention the rest of Europe.



the thing is and i could be wrong here.. it all gets bunged into a huge wholesale market and its this market that dictates the price..  users will have to pay the going rate..

trog


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## Frick (Aug 28, 2022)

trog100 said:


> the thing is and i could be wrong here.. it all gets bunged into a huge wholesale market and its this market that dictates the price..  users will have to pay the going rate..
> 
> trog



Only if the power can be transmitted, which it can't always do. Power transmission in my region hasn't been taken seriously for a long time.


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## phill (Aug 28, 2022)

We definitely need something done about ours and why we aren't either building more storage or even getting more solar or nuclear plants built is beyond me...  The world and what is going on is changing and whilst I struggle to understand the reasoning for some of it, things have to change but ripping off a country full of people because things haven't been thought of or changed over the time/years, isn't acceptable.

But wait, lets make electric cars, that'll solve everything....... 

I digress....  But thank god for my solar panels, I'll hopefully be able to control the power I use a little more than most.  I have worries it'll hit prices like a £1/kW for electric or something like 30p to 40p for gas...  Heaven help the country if it ever makes it to £8000 for an average user....  Was worse than my mortgage...


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 28, 2022)

its crazy whats going on in the uk, i dont trust the gov it seams every 25 years it finds a way to relieve us of our savings theres no shortage of gas, fuel, ect thay are blaming whats going on in the Ukraine and we dont use Russian gas or oil all ours comes from the middle East or America or the north sea fields. am i being a wee bit Paranoid ?.


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## trog100 (Aug 28, 2022)

xtreemchaos said:


> its crazy whats going on in the uk, i dont trust the gov it seams every 25 years it finds a way to relieve us of our savings theres no shortage of gas, fuel, ect thay are blaming whats going on in the Ukraine and we dont use Russian gas or oil all ours comes from the middle East or America or the north sea fields. am i being a wee bit Paranoid ?.



its what i said earlier.. the wholesale price or the going rate for energy.. high prices acts as demand destruction but ultimately some will have to go without.. lower income people will not be able to pay thier bills and will end up in debt..

the Ukraine thing is about a new cold war between nato (the west) and russia.. russia dosnt want nato moving into Ukraine and the west is hell bent on doing it.. kind of like the cuban missile crisis of many years ago.. the western media is pushing the russia is bad story but it aint quite as simple as that.. 

this winter is gonna get bad thats for sure..

trog


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## ThrashZone (Aug 29, 2022)

trog100 said:


> the western media is pushing the russia is bad story but it aint quite as simple as that..
> 
> 
> 
> trog


Hi,
Actually it is that easy.


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## trog100 (Aug 29, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Actually it is that easy.



its not just russia.. it could be russia china and india.. but good or bad if we want to say alive good and bad need to come to terms with each other and learn to co-exist.. if not its nuclear annihilation all round..

trog


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 29, 2022)

trog bud you are looking at it from the wrong angle, the Russians invaded a peaceful country and thats why NATO and most of the worlds free thinking people has got involved. china isnt going to get involved thay are far too smart for them to do so, they depend on the rest of the world to buy there goods and if the rest of the world stopped buying thay would go bankrupt in a month.


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## phill (Aug 29, 2022)

I just hope we can get something sorted out with the prices, it will cripple and put so many lives and people in such a bad place it isn't even worth thinking about..  Scares me to think that I could be in trouble with paying for a simple thing such as gas and electric because some idiot or more so a bunch of idiots never had the forthsight to actually try and get some more power plants put up that aren't sodding gas or even hell, solar on every new house or some sort of hydro system since we are surrounded by flipping water.....   I mean, if this climate change is a thing (cos you know, to me they just take too damn long to do simple things about it but I digress) you'd have thought they'd have been more for forward thinking than being a bunch of idiots and doing what they did...  It does feel like we get screwed at any opportunity but that's just my point of view...

But to being back slightly on topic, my crunching will suffer as rather than putting on maybe 10 machines on a good day to 2 or 3 on a bad day, it might only be one PC on during a bad day if putting them on at all....


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## Jacky_BEL (Aug 29, 2022)

phill said:


> But wait, lets make electric cars, that'll solve everything.......



Yes , this one ...
Politicians pushing people to buy electric cars while there isn't enough capacity to produce the electricity. Way to go.
People who bought into this , without having their own solar (or wind) energy are really screwed.

Over here they even want households to stop from using gas for heating because of CO2 emissions.
But hey , heating with woodpellets is considered ecofriendly  what about CO2 emissions and smoke from burning wood then?
Many more woodstoves have been sold lately. Yeah , like people are only going to burn proper wood in these stoves.

I think we are going back to times with bad air quality.


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## phill (Aug 29, 2022)

Here's how it's looking from October I believe 






So according to the 'averages' electric for a medium house is say 3000 kW and gas is 12900 kW.....



Spoiler: Gas work out



(How to work out the gas side of things - 











Wonder what it will be like come January...  Maybe it will all start warming up because of all the burning and such and we can get away with not using the gas      Have to laugh or you'd cry....


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 29, 2022)

i use to use about £6 for 24hr thats 2 pcs 1 large 6foot fishtank 2 50inch tvs washing machine. microwave 2 monitors, hoover and 6 led light around house the plus 2 iphones 1 ipad and a macbook, now ive cutback 1 pcs 1 large 6foot fishtank 2 50inch tvs washing machine. microwave 1 monitors, hoover and 6 led light around house the plus 2 iphones 1 ipad and im using £12 for 24hr. i do have 2kw solar but its off line at the moment needing parts. it worrys me when winter is on its way and the caps going to double. ive a mulity fuel heating coal or wood my coal comes from 5 mile up the road so i should be good.


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## phill (Aug 29, 2022)

Solar will definitely help you out now    This is why at the moment the PCs are on crunching away, I'm sure I'm getting charged something but that's understandable lol   Prices and effects it has on everything is going to be mental and I don't think anyone in power has actually thought about progress over the years with any of it....  Bit like the internet over in the UK...  So much reactive discussions rather than actually proactivity thinking about it...


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 29, 2022)

im having the run about from me insurence i lost 4 panels in a storm back in april then the main control box went its 15 years old and 1 will prob go for a full new system once thay pay me out, i sure do miss it.


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## ThrashZone (Aug 29, 2022)

Hi,
I looked into solar briefly very little land on residental lots now days and only option is on the roof
It's a very large investment and even larger if you get the battery for storing it in the likely event you loose power.
As said panels get damaged and lots of hail usually around here tough enough to keep roofs up keep.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 29, 2022)

trog100 said:


> its connected to the Ukraine situation and western sanctions imposed on russia..  basically the price of wholesale gas has gone through the roof and is likely to remain this way for quite some time.. UK electricity is mostly produced by burning gas a lot of this gas comes from russia.. or should i say did do.. he he..
> 
> trog


The UK only gets around 3% of it's total gas supply from Russia, for the EU it's around 35% however pretty much as you have said, the Global prices are sky high because some providers but mainly Russia are exporting less gas in reaction to international sanctions in order to inflate wholesale prices by forcing demand to outstrip supply.

As for energy bills paid by direct debit, you can go to standing orders where you decide how much to pay them based on your actual bill, they cannot make you pay by direct debit unless the tariff you are on requires it as part of the deal as far as I am aware.


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## phill (Aug 29, 2022)

xtreemchaos said:


> im having the run about from me insurence i lost 4 panels in a storm back in april then the main control box went its 15 years old and 1 will prob go for a full new system once thay pay me out, i sure do miss it.


I don't think I'd be without mine, helps me no end and obviously with the free electric when its on there right.  I long for a bigger array but I will need a bigger roof for that, I wouldn't say no to getting the panels installed on the floor should I have enough land to do so...  Could store no end of it then 

I'm still on direct debit with my electric/gas because I prefer to know what going out each month, I don't wish to get surprise bills of £500+ in a month lol

It seems @Tatty_One as well that every company is benefitting from the increases costs but we seem to be bending over and accepting things all so easily..  I would love to be at the meetings where they discuss energy and then do we need some more or not...  Give everyone electric cars but then charge nearly as much a litre of petrol for a unit of electric....  Its scary times...


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 29, 2022)

im not going to have my next array on the roof its too hard for me to get up there for to service, in the garden ill have to drop 2 trees but i can plant some more i need the south facing.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 29, 2022)

phill said:


> I don't think I'd be without mine, helps me no end and obviously with the free electric when its on there right.  I long for a bigger array but I will need a bigger roof for that, I wouldn't say no to getting the panels installed on the floor should I have enough land to do so...  Could store no end of it then
> 
> *I'm still on direct debit with my electric/gas because I prefer to know what going out each month, I don't wish to get surprise bills of £500+ in a month lol*
> 
> It seems @Tatty_One as well that every company is benefitting from the increases costs but we seem to be bending over and accepting things all so easily..  I would love to be at the meetings where they discuss energy and then do we need some more or not...  Give everyone electric cars but then charge nearly as much a litre of petrol for a unit of electric....  Its scary times...


You would do if you checked your meter monthly, it's a simple calculation as most people pay in arrears in any case, but the important thing is you would be paying for what you use, not what you "might" use, for those where money is really tight, paying £500 a month when you only use £450 means they don't have that 50 for food or other important stuff.  Whilst there is talk of the government setting energy companies a cap relating to how much they can hold of your credit it still means that people are unlikely to see that money in their hand which many will just not be able to afford.


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## phill (Aug 29, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> You would do if you checked your meter monthly, it's a simple calculation as most people pay in arrears in any case, but the important thing is you would be paying for what you use, not what you "might" use, for those where money is really tight, paying £500 a month when you only use £450 means they don't have that 50 for food or other important stuff.  Whilst there is talk of the government setting energy companies a cap relating to how much they can hold of your credit it still means that people are unlikely to see that money in their hand which many will just not be able to afford.


I've lowered mine to £150 a month and at the moment, last month I think the bill was about £70, so its building up a little buffer for the winter, especially considering of everything costing double from October...   Up till about a month maybe two ago, there was £750 in credit in with Bulb who I use, so I had most of it refunded.  I think its climbing up again to about £400 which is OK if we get a cold winter, but I might even email the lady I spoke to and get it refunded.  I'll be building up credit anyways, I'm trying to be damn careful with what I'm doing.  This Folding and crunching, can swallow a load of cash.. 

I take readings twice a day, morning and night to see what I've used.  I know I won't be able to in a sense change what I've used, but I can get a bit of a wake up call when I go through 10 units in a day and think, oops!  Generally my usage is low with the solar, maybe 5 units during the day time up till 10/11pm and then maybe 1 or 2 units over night with nothing on.  I know my gas bill last month had more standing charges than actual usage.

I'm one of the very few I guess who I'd call lucky as I'm lucky to have no debt, no mortgage and just whatever I spend during the month.  Since now changing jobs I've not masses of savings and certainly less than I should have, but the spending has just stopped completely.  I don't want to screw up my position by spending stupid amounts and doing stupid things so, I try to keep a close eye on what I'm actually spending/paying out


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## trog100 (Aug 30, 2022)

i have 20 x 150 watt panels on my garden sheds..  this feeds into 8 x 100 amp lithium batteries and one 3 kilowatt inverter .. this then feeds into a small circuit that goes into the house and the sheds.. this circuit can be powered by the batteries or directly from the house mains.. there is an auto switch-over device which switches over to mains power when the battery voltage drops below a certain level and back to battery power as the batteries charge back up..

in the summer my panels provide a fair amount of electricity in the winter near bugger all... it will provide a decent back up system in the event of power cuts..

the cost of solar panels and the like is bound to go up massively.. i installed mine about a year ago which was about right..

i have been etherium mining for a while.. this has been using maybe 2 kilowatts per hour or 48 K per day.. in october this is gonna cost around £24 quid per day or £720 quid per month..

the mining has to stop thats for sure.. without the mining my power usage will be quite modest..  my solar sheds will provide most of it.. my current £500 quid a month direct debit is based on my mining use..

its gonna cause some real problems for some people and small businesses.. this coming winter should produce some interesting times..

trog

ps.. i just updated my meter readings.. it seems even with the current £500 quid monthly debit my account is 1400 quid in the red.. he he


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## phill (Aug 30, 2022)

Mate and I stopped mining a while ago now, the price for the coin, difficulty and the costs for keeping it going out stripped the reward so we shut down.  Could never have done it over here, just wasn't anywhere near profitable as in the US with the cheaper electric, its a shame my mate doesn't have solar but that's another story 

I just had a pay out for my tariff for my solar, not masses but its better than nothing...  Generation I get less than 5p a unit and what I sell back to the grid, may as well call it 6p per unit..  Bit different to the 52p a unit they'll be charging soon.....


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## trog100 (Aug 31, 2022)

phill said:


> Mate and I stopped mining a while ago now, the price for the coin, difficulty and the costs for keeping it going out stripped the reward so we shut down.  Could never have done it over here, just wasn't anywhere near profitable as in the US with the cheaper electric, its a shame my mate doesn't have solar but that's another story
> 
> I just had a pay out for my tariff for my solar, not masses but its better than nothing...  Generation I get less than 5p a unit and what I sell back to the grid, may as well call it 6p per unit..  Bit different to the 52p a unit they'll be charging soon.....



my solar on the shed roofs is separate from the grid so i get to use whatever it generates.. which if things do go up to 52p a unit is well worth having.. 

when the sun is out it generate around 1200 watts or so.. it does this for maybe 8 hours a day.. at 52p a unit that would be maybe £10 a day.. 

one thing is for sure.. the UK as a country cant afford to pay these kind of energy prices.. something has to happen.. exactly what i aint sure.. he. he.

trog


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## phill (Sep 1, 2022)

Your not wrong there @trog100, I can't believe its getting so damn expensive!!   Wish I'd fixed when my Mum did, she's good for 2 years!!     Have you done the deed of turning off the PC yet mate?

I don't think it'll be allowed, it'll surely just make more of a mess than we already have which we can't sustain I'm sure...  I hear that homes will be charged £1+ from next April and businesses £2+ each unit...  Couldn't possibly work, like ever!!


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## trog100 (Sep 2, 2022)

phill said:


> Your not wrong there @trog100, I can't believe its getting so damn expensive!!   Wish I'd fixed when my Mum did, she's good for 2 years!!     Have you done the deed of turning off the PC yet mate?
> 
> I don't think it'll be allowed, it'll surely just make more of a mess than we already have which we can't sustain I'm sure...  I hear that homes will be charged £1+ from next April and businesses £2+ each unit...  Couldn't possibly work, like ever!!



it will be interesting to see exactly what does happen as we move towards the end of this year and into the next one.. people and business cant afford the coming  price increases thats for sure..

i see some kind of rationing coming somehow the country has to cut its energy consumption.. one way or another.. 

trog


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## AM4isGOD (Sep 2, 2022)

phill said:


> We definitely need something done about ours and why we aren't either building more storage or even getting more solar or nuclear plants built is beyond me...  The world and what is going on is changing and whilst I struggle to understand the reasoning for some of it, things have to change but ripping off a country full of people because things haven't been thought of or changed over the time/years, isn't acceptable.
> 
> But wait, lets make electric cars, that'll solve everything.......
> 
> I digress....  But thank god for my solar panels, I'll hopefully be able to control the power I use a little more than most.  I have worries it'll hit prices like a £1/kW for electric or something like 30p to 40p for gas...  Heaven help the country if it ever makes it to £8000 for an average user....  Was worse than my mortgage...



Didn't the UK GOV say they are going to build more nuclear stations in the UK recently?

Also I don't know when, but they are going to build a ton more offshore wind generators off the east coast, Humber region i believe


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## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 2, 2022)

AM4isGOD said:


> Didn't the UK GOV say they are going to build more nuclear stations in the UK recently?
> 
> Also I don't know when, but they are going to build a ton more offshore wind generators off the east coast, Humber region i believe



Even if the UK gets more nuclear generation, that's years from coming online.  Wind could be sooner, but I'd be shocked if the first came online any less than 24 months out.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 2, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Even if the UK gets more nuclear generation, that's years from coming online.  Wind could be sooner, but I'd be shocked if the first came online any less than 24 months out.


Apparently around 3 years for wind more depending on size of "farm", 15 - 20 years for nuclear and even that's a challenge.


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## phill (Sep 2, 2022)

I think its all a little too late really but maybe better late than never?  I mean would it hurt if every new house had solar installed or something like that to help with the power draw?  They would like us to have EV's and all that jazz, wouldn't putting it on a building site of houses be a better course of action rather than trying to pull even more from the grid??  

I did email a company for a call about a battery to go with the solar I have..   Wonder what sort of price that will be.....


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 3, 2022)

You can use simple automotive batteries. The charger is the pricey bit. 

A solar company will probably try to sell you a more expensive sealed battery, but that is not strictly necessary if you don't mind maintaining the batteries.


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## trog100 (Sep 3, 2022)

phill said:


> I think its all a little too late really but maybe better late than never?  I mean would it hurt if every new house had solar installed or something like that to help with the power draw?  They would like us to have EV's and all that jazz, wouldn't putting it on a building site of houses be a better course of action rather than trying to pull even more from the grid??
> 
> I did email a company for a call about a battery to go with the solar I have..   Wonder what sort of price that will be.....



solar power is a long term thing.. nothing done now will show a payback return over the next year or so.. my 8 x 100 amp lithium batteries cost me about £450 each.. i also have 2 in my caravan so that is 10 in total.. total cost for the batteries around £4500..

car batteries are not really suitable.. cheap lead acid leisure batteries could be used but only as a last resort.. the way i see it the cost of anything solar is gonna go through the roof just like the cost of energy.. or in simple terms its too late to do anything now except use less..

the next year is gonna be grim.. ending the economic war with russia would be a wise move but i dont see much wisdom in our current set of leaders.. as dumb as f-ck would be a better description..

to be honest this situation is far worse than most folks think it is.. bad things are gonna happen..

trog


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## Tatty_One (Sep 3, 2022)

phill said:


> I think its all a little too late really but maybe better late than never?  *I mean would it hurt if every new house had solar installed or something like that to help with the power draw?*  They would like us to have EV's and all that jazz, wouldn't putting it on a building site of houses be a better course of action rather than trying to pull even more from the grid??
> 
> I did email a company for a call about a battery to go with the solar I have..   Wonder what sort of price that will be.....


We still live in a time where buyers are put off by houses with installed solar panels and unless they are free or come with more substantial grants anyone who owns a home but thinks they may move sometime in the future will not invest in a solar install.

The first starting point for me that could happen almost immediately is that every new house built comes with solar panels to a designated minimum spec and the builder gets the government subsidy to install the system, in the next decade alone the government is hopeful that 2 million new homes will be built (maybe a little optimistic) ..... it would be a start.  By the 2050 zero emission deadline we could have 30 - 40% of our housing stock solar powered.


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## AM4isGOD (Sep 3, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> We still live in a time where buyers are put off by houses with installed solar panels and unless they are free or come with more substantial grants anyone who owns a home but thinks they may move sometime in the future will not invest in a solar install.
> 
> The first starting point for me that could happen almost immediately is that every new house built comes with solar panels to a designated minimum spec and the builder gets the government subsidy to install the system, in the next decade alone the government is hopeful that 2 million new homes will be built (maybe a little optimistic) ..... it would be a start.  By the 2050 zero emission deadline we could have 30 - 40% of our housing stock solar powered.



If every new home in the UK had panels fitted, feeding the grid, it would be pretty cool.


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## trog100 (Sep 3, 2022)

AM4isGOD said:


> If every new home in the UK had panels fitted, feeding the grid, it would be pretty cool.



future pie in the sky dreams are not gonna help the current energy crisis situation..  people being put off by solar installations is part of the past it will not apply in the future.. in fact the opposite will apply.

things have changed.. the main change being all things solar are gonna go up inline with energy prices going up.. not a lot can be done about that.. 

about a month back i bought a dokio 200 watt foldable solar panel kit for my caravan.. it cost me £199 quid.. try buying one now.. the best i could find on ebay was direct from china at over £500 quid.. 

the ones already in the UK have all been sold and the next batch from china will have different prices.. the dokio 200 watt panel was a popular item.. because you can point it at the sun better then the 300 watts fixed on my caravan roof it produce about the same output.. the pair together produce about 15 amps or 200 watts.. in the UK solar panels produce about half of what they are rated at and that is with the sun shining nicely..

past thinking needs to change.. things aint quite what they were.. the current lets bankrupt russia with sanctions type thinking aint gonna work.. Europe and the UK are likely to go bankrupt first..

trog


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## AM4isGOD (Sep 3, 2022)

trog100 said:


> 200 watt foldable solar panel



ebay good price too. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334549064555?hash=item4de4ad9b6b:g:EgEAAOSw~5ZjETNd another Dokio seller have upto 500w too https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26545505...IgoSqdBNkiaDkw%3D%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675


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## dgianstefani (Sep 3, 2022)

phill said:


> We definitely need something done about ours and why we aren't either building more storage or even getting more solar or nuclear plants built is beyond me...  The world and what is going on is changing and whilst I struggle to understand the reasoning for some of it, things have to change but ripping off a country full of people because things haven't been thought of or changed over the time/years, isn't acceptable.
> 
> But wait, lets make electric cars, that'll solve everything.......
> 
> I digress....  But thank god for my solar panels, I'll hopefully be able to control the power I use a little more than most.  I have worries it'll hit prices like a £1/kW for electric or something like 30p to 40p for gas...  Heaven help the country if it ever makes it to £8000 for an average user....  Was worse than my mortgage...


My landlord put up a notice on the fridge at the shared house I live in for uni, "can't afford to pay for washing machine/dryer" "use the washing line".

Sure, sure, seems fine at first right? I mean energy crisis and it's seems legit.

Then I did the math, worked out the energy cost assuming £0.50/KWhr prices, which AFAIK they aren't yet here in Wales, my *total* energy bill including gas (I cycle home from the surgery around 6:30pm then straight away have a cold shower as it's 20km), came to around *£50 upper limit/month*, making assumptions I gamed straight for 4hrs a day (assuming max PC energy draw, I don't, maybe one hour gaming and three to four hours of office work), and used the oven for an hour a day (I don't), and two loads of laundry per week, 60 min wash @300W/Hr rate 60 min dry @2200W/Hr.

Point is, the guy has 6 tenants paying £400+ per month in rent, _easily _covering the mortgage and bills for this kind of two storey house, even though it's seafront, each of whom would use less energy than I do, being a tech enthusiast, and he's still saying we should dry our clothes in the air of the wettest city in the UK... I get home from work when it's dark LMAO, and there's a nurse who works 12hr day/night shifts.

Clean nuclear modern fission/fasttracked fusion is the only solution, but I still don't think energy prices are at the point where it's unreasonable to expect an average family to pay their bill. Learn to live with less, you know?

Honestly, i'm just going to give him an extra £15 per week and say keep it, I'm going to continue using the dryer as much as I need to. Gotta get back into those cycling clothes again tomorrow morning lol. I don't even use the heating in my room.



> AM4isGOD said:
> Wonder how many others in the UK in shared housing are gonna get screwed by these type of landlords.


If he argues, I'll just leave, with the extra job I've taken with techpowerup, plus my NHS job, I can pay for a flat and sort bills out myself. I like the location i'm in as I have a direct view of the bay and beach from my bedroom window, but I can get that elsewhere.

Plus my excuse for the 3080ti is that it's useful for folding proteins lmao.


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## AM4isGOD (Sep 3, 2022)

dgianstefani said:


> My landlord put up a notice on the fridge at the shared house I live in for uni, "can't afford to pay for washing machine/dryer" "use the washing line".
> 
> Sure, sure, seems fine at first right? I mean energy crisis and it's seems legit.
> 
> ...



Wonder how many others in the UK in shared housing are gonna get screwed by these type of landlords.


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## phill (Sep 3, 2022)

Tatty_One said:


> We still live in a time where buyers are put off by houses with installed solar panels and unless they are free or come with more substantial grants anyone who owns a home but thinks they may move sometime in the future will not invest in a solar install.
> 
> The first starting point for me that could happen almost immediately is that every new house built comes with solar panels to a designated minimum spec and the builder gets the government subsidy to install the system, in the next decade alone the government is hopeful that 2 million new homes will be built (maybe a little optimistic) ..... it would be a start.  By the 2050 zero emission deadline we could have 30 - 40% of our housing stock solar powered.


I think this is the best starting point, it might be a small gesture in a way but with every home being built and having them on, it would make a massive difference.  100 homes with 3kW of panels for arguement sake is 3MW?  So there's some more power right there, yes it might not be 100% all the time, its the UK after all but crikey, its better than not having an extra 3MW to be able to use and help with our dependancy on using the stupid gas power stations...  I mean whoever came up with that just needs to be slapped in the face (brings me back to the Cartman meme..... but I digress...)

And as for the renters as @dgianstefani mentions with not being able to afford the electric is a joke, £2400+ a month isn't a mortgage, that's a damn profitering mortgage and they shouldn't be allowed to do it but again, money and greed just annoys the hell out of me...   If they can't afford a bit more electric out of that then there's a problem...  (as long as tenants don't take the pee I mean...) 
I mean its no different now with solar as @trog100 mentions with his panel for the caravan below, only thing has changed is that someone figures they can charge more for the same product, its not cost more to make or ship the product as such as they already had a stock, but yet because people think they need something, they buy it and the seller can get away with it...  Boils my doo doo....  


trog100 said:


> future pie in the sky dreams are not gonna help the current energy crisis situation..  people being put off by solar installations is part of the past it will not apply in the future.. in fact the opposite will apply.
> 
> things have changed.. the main change being all things solar are gonna go up inline with energy prices going up.. not a lot can be done about that..
> 
> ...


I agree mate, they are so slow to react to something that needs to be dealt with quickly.  Extra solar on everyone's home and we wouldn't even need many power stations about the country but again however many homes there are in the country and say even a 2kW array on each of them, that would be one massive amount of power I'm sure...  

Its like taking away plastic, do it quickly not in 5 to 10 years when even more cash has been spending away on it and not recycling it..  Just make it happen.  Milk could go in bottles again, bring back the local milkman and his dare I say it, electric little van that used to go around when I was a kid...  All these things we've gone away from and yet they where ahead of their times....  

I really do hope something happens and quickly because this is more about people that need that heating etc. and I can't begin to think about what is so many % of people died due to the cold and beings scared to turn on the heating, who the heck would want that on their shoulders??.....


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 3, 2022)

I am forced to point out that requiring all new homes to have solar would stifle construction in an extremely unhealthy manner. Also, most solar comes out of China, and I don't trust the environmental impacts of that manufacturing... Over and above the issues with globalization seen right now such as the draconian lockdowns in the major Chinese manufacturing centers. 

Diversification is the key to resilience. Nuclear for baseline, solar and hydro for load balancing. Massive credits or financing for efficiency retrofits.


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## trog100 (Sep 3, 2022)

what i see phil is large scale social unrest.. riots in the street kind of stuff..

that is my biggest fear.. the thing is to get to long term we have to survive the short term.. if the UK and euro economies collapse none of this long term stuff is gonna happen..

trog

ps.. as for using less.. that is easy for me.. i just stop mining.. i was just looking back at crypto prices over the last year.. since the beginning of this year or the end of last year my crypto stash has lost over $60000 in value.. it may go up again or it may not.. but with the current UK energy prices mining is no longer viable.. so that make it easy to simply stop..

to mine and hodle one has to be able to afford the leccy bill.. that is one thing i can no longer do.. he he


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## dgianstefani (Sep 3, 2022)

trog100 said:


> what i see phil is large scale social unrest.. riots in the street kind of stuff..
> 
> that is my biggest fear..
> 
> trog


The world is only ever four meals away from anarchy.

The energy crisis worldwide and the current land grab in Europe are symptoms of the same evaluations of reality that lead wealthy people who look at the long term in the USA for example (Bill Gates) to become the biggest landowners.

Especially with a lot of things coming to a head - arable farmland, energy crisis, fuel crisis, clean drinking water, immigration crisis etc. None of these serious issues are helped by the simple fact that politics is more about making the other guy look bad than actually offering sensible policies that you intend to follow. As much as people like to call Trump a populist, the current democrat leadership in the USA will literally do and say anything that makes them seem to have the moral high ground, regardless of reality. It's not so different in the rest of the world, Europe has the same issues.

I don't see any of these technical and scientific problems ever really being addressed correctly until we collectively learn to ignore the constant spew of celebrity and media bullshit, hold politicians accountable (words must be rooted in reality and promises need to be kept, or they breach contract and are evicted from power), refuse to buy from corporations with proven unethical, illegal or unenvironmentally friendly track records etc. etc. But the reality is that as long as we have our basic creature comforts, bread and games, mindless entertainment, and the powers that be keep things relatively "stable" (changes for the worse happen slowly and not overnight), nothing will improve. Most of the people (including me) who are aware of these issues tend to take the path of protecting themselves or their immediate families, and watching on with horror at the race to the precipice (I think we're actually already in free fall past the cliff already) the rest of the world seems to be set on.

Ted Kaczynski's Industrial Society & It's Future, the scientific community's reports and Yuri Bezmenov's predictions about the course western society is taking seem to be startlingly accurate, although the two I mentioned are almost four decades old at this point.

There are lots of excellent solutions to simple scientific and engineering problems (such as energy needs), that need applying at scale, but it will never happen because that requires economics based in reality, not set by whatever is most financially profitable in the short term. There are some interesting people who have championed the cause of corporate sustainability, thinking about the long term, but it's definitely not the standard, and definitely not popular.

Anyway, off topic I know, but I think these issues somewhat relate to the cost of electricity and what might happen to that cost in future.

TL DR we need to learn to give up comforts and conveniences, and face the terrible, uncomfortable truths if that's what's necessary for us as a species to dig ourselves out of this hole.


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## AM4isGOD (Sep 3, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> I am forced to point out that requiring all new homes to have solar would stifle construction in an extremely unhealthy manner. Also, most solar comes out of China, and I don't trust the environmental impacts of that manufacturing... Over and above the issues with globalization seen right now such as the draconian lockdowns in the major Chinese manufacturing centers.
> 
> Diversification is the key to resilience. Nuclear for baseline, solar and hydro for load balancing. Massive credits or financing for efficiency retrofits.



I you see how many new homes are boing built just in my city, you would not say that. They seem to be doing it in every space available.

Also it boggles my mind to see droughts on a planet 3/4 covered in water.


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## phill (Sep 6, 2022)

I believe today there has been some talks of a cap being put on the price of electric and gas....  £2500...  Wonder how long that will take to get implemented??.....


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## Tatty_One (Sep 6, 2022)

phill said:


> I believe today there has been some talks of a cap being put on the price of electric and gas....  £2500...  Wonder how long that will take to get implemented??.....


Although still speculation I heard that the prices would be capped at todays rate so no further increases on 1 October or January followed by a re-evaluation in March, still a lot to pay in winter for the lowest paid and those on benefits, all of whom will continue to struggle but at an estimated cost of £100 Billion just until March it's going to sting.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 6, 2022)

phill said:


> I believe today there has been some talks of a cap being put on the price of electric and gas....  £2500...  Wonder how long that will take to get implemented??.....


Hi,
So the electric cost on the castle will be less


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## freeagent (Sep 6, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> So the electric cost on the castle will be less


Providing everyone works hard enough to pay the bills


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## ThrashZone (Sep 8, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Providing everyone works hard enough to pay the bills


Hi,
People can work hard and not make any money.


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## freeagent (Sep 8, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> People can work hard and not make any money.


I meant for the queen 

Edit:

It should be noted that I did not know she had passed, I found out later in the afternoon..


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## phill (Sep 9, 2022)

Well here we are with a bit of an update regarding the costs of this new £2500 cap they are putting in place.......  Click 'ere!!

Taken from the text if you didn't want to click lol 

If you’re on a standard variable tariff​The average unit price for dual fuel customers paying by direct debit will be limited to 34.0p/kWh for electricity and 10.3p/kWh for gas, inclusive of VAT, from 1 October.

These unit prices have been passed to suppliers to ensure that they are used to calculate bills on time for 1 October.

Energy suppliers will adjust standard variable tariffs automatically. Customers on standard variable tariffs do not need to take any action to get the benefits of this scheme.

If you’re on a fixed tariff​If you’re on a fixed tariff at a higher rate caused by recent energy price rises, your unit prices will be reduced by 17p/kWh for electricity and 4.2p/kWh for gas.

These unit prices have been passed to suppliers to ensure that they are used to calculate bills on time for 1 October.

Energy suppliers will adjust fixed tariffs automatically. Customers on fixed tariffs do not need to take any action to get the benefits of this scheme.

Standing charges​Average standing charges will remain in line with the levels set by Ofgem for the default tariff cap from 1 October, at 46p per day for electricity and 28p per day for gas, for a typical dual fuel customer paying by direct debit.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 10, 2022)

phill said:


> Well here we are with a bit of an update regarding the costs of this new £2500 cap they are putting in place.......  Click 'ere!!
> 
> Taken from the text if you didn't want to click lol
> 
> ...


So you are retrofitting gas appliances wherever possible?


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## phill (Sep 10, 2022)

I believe they are trying out things called heat pumps but I'm not sure how much of a success that is...  If anything...

I still am a firm believer of solar on each house, a 3kW system wouldn't take much space up and everyone would have 'free' power...  Cause isn't that what they want us to do, renewable energy etc.?   Or would that mean the big firms would loose money..... ummm....  Such a tuffie....


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## Tatty_One (Sep 10, 2022)

phill said:


> *I believe they are trying out things called heat pumps but I'm not sure how much of a success that is...  If anything*...
> 
> I still am a firm believer of solar on each house, a 3kW system wouldn't take much space up and everyone would have 'free' power...  Cause isn't that what they want us to do, renewable energy etc.?   Or would that mean the big firms would loose money..... ummm....  Such a tuffie....


They are, but whilst in the future they will no doubt become cheaper, currently they are around 3 times more expensive than the boiler equivalent with installation and in a cost of living crisis not just caused by energy prices uptake during the next 3 years or so would I guess be limited................. apparently, the average saving when compared to a modern boiler would be around 15% so the challenge would remain that people buying these at current prices would not be intending to move home for at least 10 years.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Sep 10, 2022)

Heat pumps are very common in north America and parts of the Orient. 

They are comparable in price to a Split air conditioner with a gas furnace - not a heating only system. 

When your daily summer temperatures are >35C for 4 months straight, you need air conditioning. 

A new boiler system (complete) is probably comparable to a heat pump, at least on a larger house. However, retrofitting is much harder. 

Heat pumps are around 260% efficiency as a rule of thumb. Boilers are mostly 95% if you get a nice one. Below are some calculations:

34p (electric price) divided by 2.6 (COP of heat pump) means that for heating your house by 1 Kw will cost 13.4p for electric. 

10.3p (gas price) divided by .95 (boiler efficiency) means that for heating your house by 1 Kw will cost 10.8p for gas.

The advantage is having A/C so you can weather the hot months (at the cost of more electric) if you want. 

In the UK, you use hot water radiators? That will come with a pump energy penalty, but comparable to the fan on a heat pump or furnace. 

The thing is, many appliances that use heating use straight resistance heat - which costs 34p to heat by 1 Kw - for example a stove, oven, clothes dryer, erc. Changing these our for gas versions will reduce energy use by 70%.


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## phill (Sep 16, 2022)

I'm not sure about the heat pumps yet as they are massively expensive over here still which I think @Tatty_One has mentioned already but we seem to be getting hotter summers and such, so gas boilers not really ideal for cooling things down as such so... lol

I look forward to seeing some real differences in how we get our electric, heating, hot water and such like..  It would be good to have a good shake up 




I mean this is my Threadripper system trying to do a bit of folding and crunching together...  Wonder if that will warm up the house cheaper than using gas.......


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2022)

I got in trouble with the last 2 electric bills and was forced to pull the plug


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## phill (Sep 17, 2022)

freeagent said:


> I got in trouble with the last 2 electric bills and was forced to pull the plug


Power definitely not cheap here..  With the solar panels its OK but its the UK, mostly more cloud than just good sun sadly...  I've had most of the rigs I can on working today but you'd possibly be surprised that when your folding as well with the GPUs, 3000w of solar power, doesn't go quite as far as you think it will...  I'll try and get a list up at some point


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