# Sony Takes a Step Backwards with PlayStation 5, Cuts on Cooling Capacity in the new Revision



## AleksandarK (Aug 30, 2021)

Sony's latest gaming console, PlayStation 5, has been selling at loss up until August 4th, when the company announced that the new console is now profitable. However, it seems like Sony is trying to extend those profits even further with the latest revision of PlayStation 5 that is seemingly taking a step backward. According to the latest report, Sony has updated its PlayStation 5 internal design and the console is now featuring a smaller heatsink, which you can see below. The new revision is featuring a significantly smaller heatsink and an absence of the large copper cold plate. The fan that cools the heatsink is also reduced, resulting in a complete thermal downgrade.

While there was no in-depth testing of the cooling performance, the exhaust system of the new PS5 revision is spitting out 3-5 degrees Celsius higher temperatures. That is just measuring the air coming out, where the actual SoC could run hotter by an even larger margin. As we wait for more testing of the new PS5 revisions, we have to wonder why Sony opted to cut corners on such an important piece, that ultimately provides the console with longevity, due to cooler silicon.


 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## NC37 (Aug 30, 2021)

Custom cooling mods in 3...2...


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## sam_86314 (Aug 30, 2021)

AleksandarK said:


> we have to wonder why Sony opted to cut corners on such an important piece, that ultimately provides the console with longevity, due to cooler silicon.


Modern tech companies couldn't care less about longevity. What better way to encourage sales of a future slim model?


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## HIGHLANDER58 (Aug 30, 2021)

You should know why Sony would cut the cooling down, their engineers probably figured out the cooling was just a bit too good  and most likely would offer a long life and in todays world, a company just cant have people owning things for a long time without having to keep buying new ones. After all, how else will all the over priced execs pay for all their bullshit.


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## Animalpak (Aug 30, 2021)

Instead of making a functional console, compact and with an adequate cooling system as were the Steam machines but also of today's thin clients they make bulky and futuristic shapes that have terrible cooling and then revise them every year.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

> Sony’s CFO Hiroki Totoki recently stated that PS5 manufacturing will not grow during this shortage, and that to maintain the current supply volume, the PS5 may undergo small revisions with new parts or* big design changes*.


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## Patr!ck (Aug 30, 2021)

Happy I was able to get an original PS5 disc Edition model. However it's almost been a year and the NVMe expansion slot is still not enabled for every users.


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## Rhein7 (Aug 30, 2021)

Slim version incoming?


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## Sihastru (Aug 30, 2021)

> The new revision is featuring a significantly smaller heatsink and an abundance of the large copper cold plate.



There's an abundance of not making sense in that sentence.


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## TheDeeGee (Aug 30, 2021)

GN done an in depth cooling test with the original PS5, and some RAM was already very toasty with over 90C.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

According to Digital Foundry:


> At worst it will run hotter but the boost frequencies will not change. They are not governed by the cooler, but by an algorithm derived from a single 'model' SoC.


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## Alan Smithee (Aug 30, 2021)

"That is just measuring the air coming out" - you know that the air exit temperature being hotter indicates the cooling solution is working _better_, not worse, right? Getting rid of the heat is what the cooling solution _does_. An indication the CPU is running hotter would be if the air exit temperature was _cooler_, because the cooling solution wouldn't be removing the heat as efficiently.


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## Crackong (Aug 30, 2021)

Should measure frequency vs core temp / ram temps instead of the existing air temps.


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

sam_86314 said:


> Modern tech companies couldn't care less about longevity. What better way to encourage sales of a future slim model?


Plus that raw material prices (copper, aluminium, etc) have increased massively over the past year or two. Reducing the amounts of these metals probably represents a noticeable cost savings when you're looking at millions of units.

The weight reduction is 300g, so if we assume that's split 50/50 between copper and aluminium (and assuming the copper prices are pr Kg and aluminium prices are per metric ton), that's a $1 savings per console - not much on the overall BOM cost, but make a million consoles and that's a million dollars. Assuming production costs also sink due to the smaller heatsinks, and you're probably looking at multiplying that BOM savings by anything from 2x-10x. This is how mass production ekes out profits, by taking something that works and cutting it down until it _barely_ keeps working. This is probably relatively minor overall, and I bet we'll see more in the future.


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## ARF (Aug 30, 2021)

HIGHLANDER58 said:


> You should know why Sony would cut the cooling down, their engineers probably figured out the cooling was just a bit too good  and most likely would offer a long life and in todays world, a company just cant have people owning things for a long time without having to keep buying new ones. After all, how else will all the over priced execs pay for all their bullshit.



Err, except that the customers are not so stupid and will not buy the new ones  You know what customers satisfaction is?

Here, they make the console less quality in order to save a penny or two from the BoM.

But of course, that will result in fewer and fewer sales.

Their religion is - the greed will save us all


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## Vya Domus (Aug 30, 2021)

Alan Smithee said:


> "That is just measuring the air coming out" - you know that the air exit temperature being hotter indicates the cooling solution is working _better_, not worse, right?



This is just wrong, if you move more air through a heatsink that outputs the same amount of heat the air temperature will decrease because the energy density in the air that is exhausted goes down and according to your logic the cooling would be worse. So a higher air temperature could also indicate that there is less air moving or that the system is simply outputting more heat. The temperature of the air exiting a cooler does not tell you anything about the effectiveness of the cooler without some other information.


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## Arkz (Aug 30, 2021)

Die shrink? Is it drawing less power?


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## ARF (Aug 30, 2021)

Arkz said:


> Die shrink? Is it drawing less power?



No and no. There is no die shrink and it is not drawing less power. 
Actually lower cooling capacity means that the chip will boost much worse, so the overall performance will be worse, too.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

ARF said:


> No and no. There is no die shrink and it is not drawing less power.
> Actually lower cooling capacity means that the chip will boost much worse, so the overall performance will be worse, too.


Or that it will boost the same but temperatures will be higher. Model SoC is the same and boost frequencies are locked to that.


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## ARF (Aug 30, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Or that it will boost the same but temperatures will be higher. Model SoC is the same and boost frequencies are locked to that.



The boost clocks are not locked in the time domain. In an absolute sense, it will probably reach the same highs, but for much shorter periods of time.

"But that's not the most surprising feature of the PlayStation 5 hardware. When the full specifications of the gaming system were revealed, we learned that the CPU and GPU both featured a 'boost clock' design based on AMD's SmartShift technology. That means the frequencies are variable, though they are capped at 3.5 GHz for the CPU and 2.23 GHz for the GPU."
PlayStation 5's Boost Clock Design Opens Up a Lot of Opportunities, Says Developer (wccftech.com)


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## TheLostSwede (Aug 30, 2021)

It seems like no-one that covered this 'tuber, stopped to think and look at the design changes.
Yes, they removed the copper based plate the cooler was sitting one, but they also implemented much longer heatpipes than in the old design, although it also looks like they got rid of a couple of of shorter heatpipes at the same time. It's hard to judge a cooling solution based on looks alone.
I very much doubt Sony would risk getting a bunch of RMA's just to save a buck or two per console, as that would be a lot more costly to the company.
Instead of drawing hastily conclusions, it might be better to wait for someone to test them side by side and compare internal temperatures.

It might be worth noting that Sony has three different fan suppliers for the PS5 as well, so that might make a difference, since the two consoles clearly have different fans.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

My guess is that Sony was selling PS5 without profit (even like Nintendo with the WiiU at a loss) and now they are looking for at least some. Fans are fine. Some dude made test with Nidec (which was reported it's the noisiest one) outside of the console and was dead silent. Most issues are vibrations on the chassis.


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> It seems like no-one that covered this 'tuber, stopped to think and look at the design changes.
> Yes, they removed the copper based plate the cooler was sitting one, but they also implemented much longer heatpipes than in the old design, although it also looks like they got rid of a couple of of shorter heatpipes at the same time. It's hard to judge a cooling solution based on looks alone.
> I very much doubt Sony would risk getting a bunch of RMA's just to save a buck or two per console, as that would be a lot more costly to the company.
> Instead of drawing hastily conclusions, it might be better to wait for someone to test them side by side and compare internal temperatures.
> ...


As I noted in another thread on here, I would guess Sony is sitting on a metric crapton of thermal data from the millions of PS5 users out there, from a gargantuan amount of different usage scenarios. That would make it pretty easy to design a cut-down cooling solution that would still be safe in 100%/99.9%/99%/[wherever they draw the line] of usage scenarios.


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## TheLostSwede (Aug 30, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> My guess is that Sony was selling PS5 without profit (even like Nintendo with the WiiU at a loss) and now they are looking for at least some. Fans are fine. Some dude made test with Nidec (which was reported it's the noisiest one) outside of the console and was dead silent. Most issues are vibrations on the chassis.


They've more or less already admitted to that. Even so, cutting this little material cost out isn't going to change that.

The point about the fans was that different fans might result in different exhaust temperatures. As such, it's a poor means of comparing temperature.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

This is, once again, much-ado-about-nothing. One only needs to LOOK at that new heat sink and THINK about airflow within the PS5 chassis to realize the changes are refinements that improve thermal performance over-all.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Aug 30, 2021)

sam_86314 said:


> Modern tech companies couldn't care less about longevity. What better way to encourage sales of a future slim model?


That of course, will have even worse ventilation due to size constraints.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> They've more or less already admitted to that. Even so, cutting this little material cost out isn't going to change that.
> 
> The point about the fans was that different fans might result in different exhaust temperatures. As such, it's a poor means of comparing temperature.


I don't know how much will save them, but I'm glad I bought mine, so I'm not one of those with the newer "cut down" revision. Same was with Nintendo Switch. First units were with JDI screens, now all is with trash InnoLux.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 30, 2021)

The only thing this thread has shown me, is that without data as long as something has copper on it enthusiasts and gamers will buy it.

a swas said, even if the cooler ends up being worse, that does not mean it affects failure rate. If Sony has taken a loss all this time they do not want RMAs.

if they save $100 per unit for say a 5c heat bump without affecting the console why wouldn’t they? Why wouldn’t you?


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## Bones (Aug 30, 2021)

And it's all for nothing since they're using LM as the TIM. 
Sure, it will cool better than standard TIM for the first two or three years (Maybe) but after that......

Personally speaking, If I were to get one the LM would be the FIRST thing to fix.

I have a few PS3's and each one has the same basic problems with cooling and the deal with the solder cracking with age leading to the Red/Yellow LED of death. 

It's like Sony just can't figure it out or they don't care to, even if the LM does better at first the corrosive effects of it will eventually offset any gains plus make it even harder to fix properly once the cooler's contact surface has been "Eaten" by the LM. 

And I'm just waiting for all that to happen and it's going to.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 30, 2021)

Well , at least a front page news post on TPU should jar someone into doing some actual testing.

Only that can define this as a shit show or storm in a teacup, until we have those answers I am on the fence.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

Bones said:


> And it's all for nothing since they're using LM as the TIM.
> Sure, it will cool better than standard TIM for the first two or three years (Maybe) but after that......
> 
> Personally speaking, If I were to get one the LM would be the FIRST thing to fix.
> ...


Liquid Metal TIM does NOT degrade. What ever source you got that nonsense from, stop listening to them! They are lying to you. Tin, Gallium and Indium in the formulations sold as a Thermal Interface Material do not oxidize and are not broken down by any heat a PC/PS5 could reasonably offer. This is science FACT, not opinion.


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## Bones (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Liquid Metal TIM does NOT degrade. What ever source you got that nonsense from, stop listening to them! They are lying to you. Tin, Gallium and Indium in the formulations sold as a Thermal Interface Material do not oxidize and are not broken down by any heat a PC/PS5 could reasonably offer. This is science FACT, not opinion.


It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.
The reaction of LM to other metals is real and it will eventually eat away at the cooler's own material, like it or not.
You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.

The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D. for aluminum based coolers themselves and any surfaces based on it for use with LM as a TIM - And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.

I mean unless they are using a material that's resistant to it that's how it _will_ go eventually - Just a matter of when, not if.


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

Solaris17 said:


> they save $100 per unit for say a 5c heat bump without affecting the console why wouldn’t they?


You're _way_ overestimating the possible savings from this. This is a mass-produced heatsink with a pretty basic construction. Remember, you can buy pretty decent heatpipe-equipped PC heatsinks for $20-30 at retail - and those are sold in _much_ lower volumes than this, have distributor and retail margins tacked on, and are still profitable to the OEM. The savings are - at best - something like $10. Likely less than half of that. (Materials savings, going by today's pricing and assuming the 300g reduction is 50/50 copper and aluminium, are around $1.) Still, even $1/console is $10 million once you've sold 10 million consoles, so every cent matters (to Sony's bottom line).



Bones said:


> It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.
> The reaction of LM to other metals is real and it will eventually eat away at the cooler's own material, like it or not.
> You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.
> 
> The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D. for aluminum based coolers themselves and any surfaces based on it for use with LM as a TIM - And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.


Looks like a steel retention frame with (likely) a tiny copper cold plate or direct contact heatpipes to me (under the fin stack, so we wouldn't see it). And LM makes copper look bad, but doesn't (to my knowledge at least) actually harm thermal performance over time. Aluminium is another story of course.


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## TheLostSwede (Aug 30, 2021)

Bones said:


> It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.
> The reaction of LM to other metals is real and it will eventually eat away at the cooler's own material, like it or not.
> You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.
> 
> ...


So you think a multi-billion dollar company like Sony don't have engineers to test things like this   
I don't think this heatsink was a rush job that no-one tested before they mass produced it.


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## Bones (Aug 30, 2021)

Yeah, if it's like the older coolers in a PS3 it's like a time-bomb slowly winding down.
The heatsinks in those ARE aluminum and if you use LM with those you may as well get ready for trouble because it's coming.

I'd hope they at least had sense enough to consider it and what to make these heatsinks from to use with LM for that very reason but it does look to be all aluminum in the pic.
Nickel plated aluminum would be much better and even make more sense..... If they are doing that in the first place.

@TheLostSwede They sure did alot of testing with the PS3 and lookie what happened.

And I _seriously_ doubt up until now any testing has gone the distance with the effects of LM on these coolers to observe what happens over time. 
They haven't even been around long enough to know..... 
Yet. 

Another example:
The very solder used isn't that durable with those and IS the reason why so many of those died of the Red/Yellow LED's of death in the first place.
Thermal expansion/contraction killed those but using a better quality solder (60/40) has so far been nothing but good according to all that's had them reballed.
That took time to show but once it did it was rampant and had alot of PS3 owners fuming..... And guys like me snapping them up cheap and fixing them.


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## usiname (Aug 30, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> So you think a multi-billion dollar company like Sony don't have engineers to test things like this
> I don't think this heatsink was a rush job that no-one tested before they mass produced it.


Gigabyte say hi... No matter how big is company mistakes always happen. Should I start with all mistakes of Microsoft? Big companies allways try to save a few bucks with cheaper solutions and not enough testing.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

Same was with PS3. First had backwards compatiblity than the next get rid all of this. Most of the time first revision is always the best, than companies start to cut costs.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

Bones said:


> It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.


Unless you use a Nickel plated alloy as a contact material, as Sony is doing with the PS5 heatplate. Then nothing happens, at all. Galinstan type materials do not react with Nickel. Why do you think LQ heat blocks for CPU's and GPU's are almost always Nickel plated? It's not a coincidence.



Bones said:


> You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.


Well, I just did. But if you want "proof" you'll need to read up on that data yourself. It's common knowledge and is not hard to find. I will give you a good starting point;








						Galinstan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






Bones said:


> The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D.


No, it makes it somewhat complicated and a little risky. However, if the proper precautions are taken and the conditions for use are engineered correctly, it is perfectly safe to use as a TIM, which is why it's use is so common and widespread.



Bones said:


> And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.


Oh? See the silver-like shiny sheen metal? That's Nickel plated metal. The part in direct contact with the LM TIM? Yeah, that'll be Nickel plated too. Par-for-the-course. Sony's engineers know what they're doing.



Bones said:


> I mean unless they are using a material that's resistant to it that's how it _will_ go eventually - *Just a matter of when, not if.*


Also incorrect. Nickel is completely impervious to all Galinstan materials.


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## Bones (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Unless you use a Nickel plated alloy as a contact material, as Sony is doing with the PS5 heatplate. Then nothing happens, at all. Galinstan type materials do not react with Nickel. Why do you think LQ heat blocks for CPU's and GPU's are almost always Nickel plated? It's not a coincidence.
> 
> 
> Well, I just did. But if you want "proof" you'll need to read up on that data yourself. It's common knowledge and is not hard to find. I will give you a good starting point;
> ...


Note *I did say previously* if they weren't using nickel plating it wasn't good - _I was already aware_ of LM vs nickel.

If they really are using nickel plating that's great and does make sense and in fact is a must with LM. 

I basically had said if they weren't using nickel *and* was using LM it's gonna be a bad deal.


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## TheLostSwede (Aug 30, 2021)

usiname said:


> Gigabyte say hi... No matter how big is company mistakes always happen. Should I start with all mistakes of Microsoft? Big companies allways try to save a few bucks with cheaper solutions and not enough testing.


Mistakes ≠ no testing. It's simply not the same thing.
All companies are trying to save a few bucks, it's how the world works.
Also, a lot of products are overengineered from the beginning and goes through revisions to cut down on cost.
I take it you've seen PCBs with a missing capacitor or two? This is one of those things where they figured out that they weren't needed as they go through revisions of the hardware.
It's also a very big difference between Japanese companies and everyone else, except maybe German and some Swedish companies.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 30, 2021)

ARF said:


> Err, except that the customers are not so stupid and will not buy the new ones  You know what customers satisfaction is?


What universe do you live in? In reality gamers consistently buy overpriced broken games and overpriced consoles and accessories all the time. They'll gobble this thing up like candy.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

Yeah common consumer won't even know that or care about it... It's just tech nerds like us.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

Bones said:


> Note *I did say previously* if they weren't using nickel plating it wasn't good - _I was already aware_ of LM vs nickel.
> 
> If they really are using nickel plating that's great and does make sense and in fact is a must with LM.
> 
> I basically had said if they weren't using nickel *and* was using LM it's gonna be a bad deal.


Ah, sorry. Might have missed that.



BorisDG said:


> Yeah common consumer won't even know that or care about it... It's just tech nerds like us.


This!


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## ARF (Aug 30, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> What universe do you live in? In reality gamers consistently buy overpriced broken games and overpriced consoles and accessories all the time. They'll gobble this thing up like candy.





BorisDG said:


> Yeah common consumer won't even know that or care about it... It's just tech nerds like us.



It depends on whether this becomes common knowledge. The purpose of these news articles is to inform the readers not to buy.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

ARF said:


> It depends on whether this becomes common knowledge. The purpose of these news articles is to inform the readers not to buy.


No matter what, people are still gonna buy them. The market is hungry for next-gen consoles.


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## ARF (Aug 30, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> No matter what, people are still gonna buy them. The market is hungry for next-gen consoles.



Buy a configurable PC instead! Much wiser choice and the cooling will be up to you!


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

ARF said:


> Buy a configurable PC instead! Much wiser choice and the cooling will be up to you!


People (incl. me) are buying, because of exclusives. That's why i never cared for Xbox. It's literally PC platform with less capable hardware.

So at the end - PC, PS5 and Nintendo.


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> No matter what, people are still gonna buy them. The market is hungry for next-gen consoles.


Current-gen. They have been on the market for nearly a year and have sold millions of units. They are very much current, and not next, even if the vast majority of console gamers are still on _previous_-gen consoles.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Current-gen. They have been on the market for nearly a year and have sold millions of units. They are very much current, and not next, even if the vast majority of console gamers are still on _previous_-gen consoles.


Yes, but people are still calling them "next-gen". It's not my way of naming them. Also 1 year on the market, but not much stock.


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Yes, but people are still calling them "next-gen". It's not my way of naming them. Also 1 year on the market, but not much stock.


But by following that logic, how can anyone ever switch over? If everyone is wrong, the only way of rectifying that is for _someone_ to start being right. And why not you? And the amount of stock is irrelevant - they were current from the day they launched. Being the current generation means the newest, most recent generation, not the most widely adopted or popular. 'Next-gen' getting stuck from all the pre-launch rumors and discussions is just a bad habit and people not thinking about the words they use.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

It really doesn't matter how you are calling them - for me they are "next-gen". I don't think so that's the topic here anyway. It's nitpicking.


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## HD64G (Aug 30, 2021)

Maybe that revision with the smaller-lighter cooler has the 6nm SOC already in it?


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Maybe that revision with the smaller-lighter cooler has the 6nm SOC already in it?


No. Same SoC.


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## medi01 (Aug 30, 2021)

Animalpak said:


> Instead of making a functional console, compact and with an adequate cooling system as were the Steam machines but also of today's thin clients they make bulky and futuristic shapes that have terrible cooling and then revise them every year.


Sony wasn't prepared for MS going bananas on chip size. (40CUs vs 56)
Hence they had to OC the APU to 2.2-ish Ghz.
Hence the need to mess with cooling.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

Needless to say DF and GN are already on it.


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## Xex360 (Aug 30, 2021)

> the exhaust system of the new PS5 revision is spitting out 3-5 degrees


We could deduce from this that the new system is either more efficient in cooling or the SOC produces more heat, given that's the same SOC so the new cooling (or firmware) the new PS5 is able to take more heat than the old one. 
Stop feeding those philistine YouTubers who don't have a clue about anything.


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## HD64G (Aug 30, 2021)

Xex360 said:


> We could deduce from this that the new system is either more efficient in cooling or the SOC produces more heat, given that's the same SOC so the new cooling (or firmware) the new PS5 is able to take more heat than the old one.
> Stop feeding those philistine YouTubers who don't have a clue about anything.


Agreed, most likely that the new and different in design fan works better in extracting more air from the case which is *always *a good indication for cooling a closed case. And I don't think that the SOC in the PS5 consumes more now than the original.


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## Bomby569 (Aug 30, 2021)

the old one was overkill anyway, i don't think it needs to become a drama


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## Jism (Aug 30, 2021)

Overhyped news really.

That SOC wont be utilized for it's 100% both CPU and GPU anyways in it's lifetime. And second hardware can run up to it's thermal limits for quite some years without any issues. Any device will need cleaning over time. Due to the use of LM its just a matter of canning the thing clear from it's dust and thats it.

If PS5 gets a refined SOC as in smaller nanometers then there's no use to have the same heatsink really. TSMC refines it all the time and these small increments will help driving it's power requirement down. So as part of a contract proberely that sony is entitled to take off xxxx amount of wafers on monthly basis it wont change anything really.

I mean it wont be as hot as the initial PS3 fat version. And it wont be as hot as the PS4. These ryzen socs with Rdna graphics are very clever when it comes to thermal performance. They can and are designed to run hotter then usual.


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## TheLostSwede (Aug 30, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Agreed, most likely that the new and different in design fan works better in extracting more air from the case which is *always *a good indication for cooling a closed case. And I don't think that the SOC in the PS5 consumes more now than the original.


The fan isn't new. If you missed my earlier reply in this thread, even the first version of the PS5 came with three different fans from three different suppliers.
I made the same assumption at first, thanks to the way the 'tuber presented things.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

Yeah it's NMB, Delta and Nidec. In the video old PS5 digital is with the Delta, while the Nidec was in the new revision. My PS5 is also with the Nidec fan. All are kinda the same. Before was said that Nidec is the worst in terms of noise, but actually it's all about the vibrations in the chassis. All fans are dead silent if you take them out of the console. There was video exactly for the Nidec, because it got hate that is the worst fan of all three which is not the case. Vibrations and coil whine are biggest sources of noises in the PS5.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Aug 30, 2021)

While I doubt that we’re seeing a node shrink, it’s quite possible that the process for manufacturing the existing chip has simply improved since launch, resulting in better chips coming off the line that require less peak voltage to hit the design targets. Binning for consoles looks different because they can’t harvest through the usual means of reduced CUs or lower clocks. Better chips mean modified console designs.

As others have pointed out, I’m also questioning the logic that hotter exhaust means less efficient. If anything, it tells me the cooling setup is performing better, since more heat is leaving the system. Consoles are all about refinement over time, which helps drive down production costs throughout the product’s lifecycle. I would suspect that the launch consoles were overbuilt knowing that they’d have the ”worst” batch of SOCs coming off the line. Now Sony likely has several months of real usage data and telemetry to make further tweaks to the production process.


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

Xex360 said:


> We could deduce from this that the new system is either more efficient in cooling or the SOC produces more heat, given that's the same SOC so the new cooling (or firmware) the new PS5 is able to take more heat than the old one.
> Stop feeding those philistine YouTubers who don't have a clue about anything.


That's not how cooling works. A higher exhaust airflow temperature can mean several things: less airflow (meaning the air has more time to heat up while passing through the heatsink); a warmer heatsink due to less thermal mass and/or surface area; a warmer chip putting out more power. What it _can't _mean is the heatsink is transferring more heat to the air at the same airflow without the heatsink temperature increasing - thermodynamics ensures that. It is not indicative of a more efficient cooling system if one adheres to common understandings of (consumer-facing) cooling efficiency (i.e. being able to extract as much heat as possible with as little power consumption, noise and design issues/complexity as possible) - cooler exhaust air is indicative of the heatsink efficiently dissipating its thermal energy input. Given that there's no chance of a power draw increase for the SoC (unless yields have suddenly gotten worse, which ... nah.), that means either less airflow or a hotter heatsink. Given the smaller design of the heatsink and retaining at least one of the original fans (likely all three for a steady supply), a hotter heatsink is by far the most likely answer due to there being less surface area and less thermal mass. A hotter heatsink also generally means a hotter SoC (as thermal transfer is more effective the larger the thermal delta, the heatsink getting warmer will cause the SoC to heat up as well) - though by exactly how much is impossible to extrapolate from external data. It's likely a relatively minor difference overall - and as I said before, Sony most likely has all the data they could ever want in order to make sure this design is sufficient to keep things running.


BorisDG said:


> It really doesn't matter how you are calling them - for me they are "next-gen". I don't think so that's the topic here anyway. It's nitpicking.


Well, you're entirely welcome to your own personal definition. For the world and console makers, these exist and have been on sale for quite a while, so they are by the very definition of the word _current_. Whether they are _next_ for you (and a lot of other people) is rather irrelevant. And sure, it's nitpicking, but it's also worth thinking about how we actually speak of things. Sticking to an outdated term just because we're used to it is a bad habit.


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## Totally (Aug 30, 2021)

Alan Smithee said:


> "That is just measuring the air coming out" - you know that the air exit temperature being hotter indicates the cooling solution is working _better_, not worse, right? Getting rid of the heat is what the cooling solution _does_. An indication the CPU is running hotter would be if the air exit temperature was _cooler_, because the cooling solution wouldn't be removing the heat as efficiently.


That is if the cooling solution remains constant, right? If the cpu runs significantly hotter reaching saturation, air exit temp follows, right?


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

Totally said:


> That is if the cooling solution remains constant, right? If the cpu runs significantly hotter reaching saturation, air exit temp follows, right?


Yep. Or if you reduce the thermal mass of the heatsink, exhaust temps will also rise as the remaining heatsink needs to absorb the same amount of energy. This will also lead to the SoC running slightly hotter as the thermal delta between the SoC and heatsink shrinks, making heat transfer less efficient.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

@AleksandarK - that teardown was for PS5 Digital, not the disc model. So far we have no reports that the same type of cuts were made for the B chassis of the fat model.


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## PCL (Aug 30, 2021)

Jism said:


> Overhyped news really.
> 
> That SOC wont be utilized for it's 100% both CPU and GPU anyways in it's lifetime. And second hardware can run up to it's thermal limits for quite some years without any issues. Any device will need cleaning over time. Due to the use of LM its just a matter of canning the thing clear from it's dust and thats it.
> 
> ...


I'm not a huge fan of paying the same price for a revision that makes it an objectively worse product. Sadly, sentiments that view it as "good enough; who cares" will let these companies pad their bottom lines and drown out complaints.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

PCL said:


> I'm not a huge fan of paying the same price for a revision that makes it an objectively worse product. Sadly, sentiments that view it as "good enough; who cares" will let these companies pad their bottom lines and drown out complaints.


Same here. I prefer paying same price for "overly-engineered" console than "standard".


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## trsttte (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is, once again, much-ado-about-nothing. One only needs to LOOK at that new heat sink and THINK about airflow within the PS5 chassis to realize the changes are refinements that improve thermal performance over-all.



We'll need proper testing to be sure (measuring the exhaust temperature is kind of a joke) but they definitely cheaped out. I can see some optimizations, like in the bottom where the fins barely get any air got cut down, but the slimmer upper part is definetly a cost savings that ought to reduce performance. The vapor chamber is also a lot smaller. 

The entire thing imo was bad from the start, it was done the apple way - design over function, and doesn't even look that great (not hating, I have a disc edition, but it's true, the cooling design got way more complicated than it needed to be and only lost performance in the process - xbox altough not perfect did it a lot better). 



Chomiq said:


> @AleksandarK - that teardown was for PS5 Digital, not the disc model. So far we have no reports that the same type of cuts were made for the B chassis of the fat model.



Not yet, but it's more than likely to happen sooner than later. I think the original disc model used the same heatsink as the digital, no reason to have them be different as the new one is almost certainly cheaper.



Chomiq said:


> Needless to say DF and GN are already on it.



They are? Sure hope so, would like to see more concrete data (if the fan variations offer a meaningfull difference maybe go shopping


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## etayorius (Aug 30, 2021)

I'm not into  conslows but if i were to choose a console it would be Xbox SeX. The main reason is that the PS5 is HUGE and looks very ridiculous... it really looks like anything except a Console. The Xbox SeX which is Waaaay smaller and around 20-30% faster seems to be just pushed aside by most conslow gamers in favor of PS5. Like 16 out 20 people that i asked about have choose the PS5 immediately while shitting on the Xbox. And i want to know WHY?

Why is a more compact console with much powerful hardware is being shit on so much? I doubt it's the exclusives, both sides seems to be lacking on that deparment for the moment. Also, M$ now owns Zenimax and a whole lot of very good developers.


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## Caring1 (Aug 30, 2021)

Alan Smithee said:


> "That is just measuring the air coming out" - you know that the air exit temperature being hotter indicates the cooling solution is working _better_, not worse, right? Getting rid of the heat is what the cooling solution _does_. An indication the CPU is running hotter would be if the air exit temperature was _cooler_, because the cooling solution wouldn't be removing the heat as efficiently.


No, that doesn't make sense.
Hotter air exiting means more internal heat which is being blown out.
Cooler air out means cooler internals.


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## trsttte (Aug 30, 2021)

etayorius said:


> I'm not into  conslows but if i were to choose a console it would be Xbox SeX. The main reason is that the PS5 is HUGE and looks very ridiculous... it really looks like anything except a Console. The Xbox SeX which is Waaaay smaller and around 20-30% faster seems to be just pushed aside by most conslow gamers in favor of PS5. Like 16 out 20 people that i asked about have choose the PS5 immediately while shitting on the Xbox. And i want to know WHY?
> 
> Why is a more compact console with much powerful hardware is being shit on so much? I doubt it's the exclusives, both sides seems to be lacking on that deparment for the moment. Also, M$ now owns Zenimax and a whole lot of very good developers.



It's exactly that, the exclusive games (the controller is also pretty great). The xbox is slightly more powerfull (20-30% is an exageration imo but whatever) but I can play xbox games on the desktop anyway. Can't really do that for playstation exclusives.



Caring1 said:


> No, that doesn't make sense.
> Hotter air exiting means more internal heat which is being blown out.
> Cooler air out means cooler internals.



It technically could be either one, you'd need more concrete data to be sure, but more than likely it's what you describe, hotter internals.


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## BorisDG (Aug 30, 2021)

etayorius said:


> I'm not into  conslows but if i were to choose a console it would be Xbox SeX. The main reason is that the PS5 is HUGE and looks very ridiculous... it really looks like anything except a Console. The Xbox SeX which is Waaaay smaller and around 20-30% faster seems to be just pushed aside by most conslow gamers in favor of PS5. Like 16 out 20 people that i asked about have choose the PS5 immediately while shitting on the Xbox. And i want to know WHY?
> 
> Why is a more compact console with much powerful hardware is being shit on so much? I doubt it's the exclusives, both sides seems to be lacking on that deparment for the moment. Also, M$ now owns Zenimax and a whole lot of very good developers.


PS5 is catching up with clock speeds and closing that gap. Plus was seen in many scenarios that PS5 games perform better than Xbox Series X. It's not all about raw power, but also the software. See Nintendo.


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## Darksaber (Aug 30, 2021)

Sihastru said:


> There's an abundance of not making sense in that sentence.


True, fixed


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## lewis007 (Aug 31, 2021)

Any other updates internally to suggest a smaller cooler is warranted?


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## Totally (Aug 31, 2021)

lewis007 said:


> Any other updates internally to suggest a smaller cooler is warranted?


The original cooler was most likely over engineered and had a lot of cooling headroom. When counting their beans they probably realized they could save quite a bit and redesigned the new one without the headroom and at the limit. e.g. A computer OEM makes a desktop with a 1200w psu but the system's peak draw is only 600w so they revise it and new units are shipped with a cheaper 650w psu.


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## trsttte (Aug 31, 2021)

Totally said:


> The original cooler was most likely over engineered and had a lot of cooling headroom. When counting their beans they probably realized they could save quite a bit and redesigned the new one without the headroom and at the limit. e.g. A computer OEM makes a desktop with a 1200w psu but the system's peak draw is only 600w so they revise it and new units are shipped with a cheaper 650w psu.



All we can do is pretty much speculate, I just saw on twitter that at least Digital Foundry is looking into it (both sourcing one to test and asking sony for anwsers). Someone here also mentioned Gamers Nexus so we'll have more awnsers eventually.


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## Xex360 (Aug 31, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That's not how cooling works. A higher exhaust airflow temperature can mean several things: less airflow (meaning the air has more time to heat up while passing through the heatsink); a warmer heatsink due to less thermal mass and/or surface area; a warmer chip putting out more power. What it _can't _mean is the heatsink is transferring more heat to the air at the same airflow without the heatsink temperature increasing - thermodynamics ensures that. It is not indicative of a more efficient cooling system if one adheres to common understandings of (consumer-facing) cooling efficiency (i.e. being able to extract as much heat as possible with as little power consumption, noise and design issues/complexity as possible) - cooler exhaust air is indicative of the heatsink efficiently dissipating its thermal energy input. Given that there's no chance of a power draw increase for the SoC (unless yields have suddenly gotten worse, which ... nah.), that means either less airflow or a hotter heatsink. Given the smaller design of the heatsink and retaining at least one of the original fans (likely all three for a steady supply), a hotter heatsink is by far the most likely answer due to there being less surface area and less thermal mass. A hotter heatsink also generally means a hotter SoC (as thermal transfer is more effective the larger the thermal delta, the heatsink getting warmer will cause the SoC to heat up as well) - though by exactly how much is impossible to extrapolate from external data. It's likely a relatively minor difference overall - and as I said before, Sony most likely has all the data they could ever want in order to make sure this design is sufficient to keep things running.
> 
> Well, you're entirely welcome to your own personal definition. For the world and console makers, these exist and have been on sale for quite a while, so they are by the very definition of the word _current_. Whether they are _next_ for you (and a lot of other people) is rather irrelevant. And sure, it's nitpicking, but it's also worth thinking about how we actually speak of things. Sticking to an outdated term just because we're used to it is a bad habit.


I disagree, given that both are air cooling so reaching steady state is fast say 2min, and the consoles produce a similar amount of heat say 200w, yet one console is exhausting more heat than the other, so either the new model is doing a better job, or the old model is dissipating heat through another way than the exhaust via the body of the console. Either way the new model seems more efficient.
Here's a more serious article than the misleading nonsense of the YouTuber. 








						New PS5 model’s weight-loss mystery solved: A smaller, likely better heatsink
					

Parsing this weekend's informative, but not entirely authoritative, revision teardown.




					arstechnica.com


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## rvalencia (Aug 31, 2021)

Patr!ck said:


> Happy I was able to get an original PS5 disc Edition model. However it's almost been a year and the NVMe expansion slot is still not enabled for every users.


VRR is not yet enabled for PS5.


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## Berfs1 (Aug 31, 2021)

so it looks like every company is now silently downgrading their products... what a time to be in.


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## Chomiq (Aug 31, 2021)

rvalencia said:


> VRR is not yet enabled for PS5.











						PS5 SSD Expansion Enabled In Latest Beta Firmware Update
					

Sony is finally testing internal SSD expansion with beta firmware before rolling it out to all PS5 consoles.




					www.gamespot.com
				




VRR won't happen until Sony actually delivers it in their TV's since they want to sell bundles. Which is a pain since all current TV's from Sony used gimped MediaTek SoC's that come with some major issues when it comes to 4K120 signal.

People were suckered into "HDMI 2.1" displays in 2020 but Sony is yet to deliver VRR promised in "future" firmware updates. I'm surprised no one has sued them yet for false advertising. 2021 sets are the same.


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## Valantar (Aug 31, 2021)

Xex360 said:


> I disagree, given that both are air cooling so reaching steady state is fast say 2min, and the consoles produce a similar amount of heat say 200w, yet one console is exhausting more heat than the other, so either the new model is doing a better job, or the old model is dissipating heat through another way than the exhaust via the body of the console. Either way the new model seems more efficient.
> Here's a more serious article than the misleading nonsense of the YouTuber.
> 
> 
> ...


That Ars article also doubts Austin's claims that it's extracting more heat from the system, so ... yeah. And no, it isn't _exhausting more heat_, its exhaust air is hotter. "More heat" must mean more total thermal energy, which is a factor of both temperature and volume of heated air - you can concentrate that heat in a small amount of hotter air, or spread it across a larger volume of lukewarm air. Measuring the exhaust temperature at a single point tells us nothing about this. Given a fixed thermal input smaller heatsink with a smaller surface area will heat the air less with the same airflow or heat a smaller amount of air the same (or even more) with less airflow - which depends on both the fan, the flow path, the specific design of the heatsink, and more. That doesn't mean the smaller heatsink is "exhausting more heat", it means the heat source - the SoC, and by extension the heatsink - is getting hotter, as hotter exhaust air means a hotter heatsink, which necessitates a hotter SoC as well. The specifics of this relation are complex and can't be reliably estimated (without some _serious_ simulation at least), so measurements are needed.

To put it in your wording: reaching steady state is fast, say 2min, and the consoles produce a similar amount of heat, say 200w, yet one console's exhaust is hotter than the other, so either the old model is heating a higher volume of air less with the same thermal energy, or the new console has drastically lowered airflow, allowing its exhaust air to heat up more. Either way, hotter exhaust = hotter heatsink = hotter SoC. Thermal transfer relies on the temperature delta between the heatsink and the air, and a higher delta means more efficient thermal transfer. Warmer exhaust air is not a sign of things working better, it can be a sign of either something different but roughly equal or something worse.


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## Chomiq (Aug 31, 2021)

Berfs1 said:


> so it looks like every company is now silently downgrading their products... what a time to be in.


It's called "cost optimizing". OG Xbox One had over-engineered thermal design because MS was afraid of return of the RROD. It later allowed them to boost frequencies higher.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 31, 2021)

trsttte said:


> We'll need proper testing to be sure


Not going to disagree with that. Testing is needed.


trsttte said:


> but they definitely cheaped out.


You stated that with negative implication. Once again, there nothing nefarious going on with this change. It's a refinement, seemingly a well engineered one. The complaining and nay-saying by many before actual comparative tests have been conducted is unwarranted.


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## Xex360 (Aug 31, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That Ars article also doubts Austin's claims that it's extracting more heat from the system, so ... yeah. And no, it isn't _exhausting more heat_, its exhaust air is hotter. "More heat" must mean more total thermal energy, which is a factor of both temperature and volume of heated air - you can concentrate that heat in a small amount of hotter air, or spread it across a larger volume of lukewarm air. Measuring the exhaust temperature at a single point tells us nothing about this. Given a fixed thermal input smaller heatsink with a smaller surface area will heat the air less with the same airflow or heat a smaller amount of air the same (or even more) with less airflow - which depends on both the fan, the flow path, the specific design of the heatsink, and more. That doesn't mean the smaller heatsink is "exhausting more heat", it means the heat source - the SoC, and by extension the heatsink - is getting hotter, as hotter exhaust air means a hotter heatsink, which necessitates a hotter SoC as well. The specifics of this relation are complex and can't be reliably estimated (without some _serious_ simulation at least), so measurements are needed.
> 
> To put it in your wording: reaching steady state is fast, say 2min, and the consoles produce a similar amount of heat, say 200w, yet one console's exhaust is hotter than the other, so either the old model is heating a higher volume of air less with the same thermal energy, or the new console has drastically lowered airflow, allowing its exhaust air to heat up more. Either way, hotter exhaust = hotter heatsink = hotter SoC. Thermal transfer relies on the temperature delta between the heatsink and the air, and a higher delta means more efficient thermal transfer. Warmer exhaust air is not a sign of things working better, it can be a sign of either something different but roughly equal or something worse.


I see your point better now, indeed we can not make conclusions regarding the efficiency of the cooler until we have proper measurements.
But I disagree with the conclusion as it is a efficient design by being smaller and achieving the same performance with the same kind of hardware.


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## skizzo (Aug 31, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> My guess is that Sony was selling PS5 without profit (even like Nintendo with the WiiU at a loss) and now they are looking for at least some. Fans are fine. Some dude made test with Nidec (which was reported it's the noisiest one) outside of the console and was dead silent. Most issues are vibrations on the chassis.


it's called a loss leader and it is practically expected for the 1st gen of a new console to be sold as such. they are loosing money on console sales alone, but the profit margins for all the subscription services, peripherals, games, etc, are good enough to make up the difference. they lead you in (hence the loss leader term) to buy the console at a cheaper price than what it costs them to actually design, produce and ship it to market, and hope you spend spend spend on all those other things that go along with the console. typically the console will make money later after there is a more comprehensive revision....i doubt this was that revision


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## Lukalumen (Aug 31, 2021)

Oh so the article concluded they improved cooling in this new version, that's interesting...
If the system is getting more hot air out of the console, it means it's more efficient.



Alan Smithee said:


> "That is just measuring the air coming out" - you know that the air exit temperature being hotter indicates the cooling solution is working _better_, not worse, right? Getting rid of the heat is what the cooling solution _does_. An indication the CPU is running hotter would be if the air exit temperature was _cooler_, because the cooling solution wouldn't be removing the heat as efficiently.


This! The article actually shows the new cooling setup is way better! 3-5 degrees is a great improvement in cooling efficiency.


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## rvalencia (Aug 31, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> PS5 SSD Expansion Enabled In Latest Beta Firmware Update
> 
> 
> Sony is finally testing internal SSD expansion with beta firmware before rolling it out to all PS5 consoles.
> ...


There are major factors for HDMI 2.1 and these are
1.  HDMI encoder IC e.g. Panasonic (a.k.a. Crapsonic), Audiologic
2. SoC e.g. MediaTek, LG α9.

HDMI 2.1 standard is a mess. HDMI 2.1 = lack of standard, lack of transparency.

PS; I'm a Yamaha RX-6A (BS 24 Gbps, thanks Crapsonic) victim. The weakness link with my HDMI 2.1 setup is Yamaha RX-6A garbage HDMI 2.1.

PS5 has Panasonic HDMI encoder IC.
Yamaha RX-6A has Panasonic HDMI encoder IC.


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## Valantar (Aug 31, 2021)

Xex360 said:


> I see your point better now, indeed we can not make conclusions regarding the efficiency of the cooler until we have proper measurements.
> But I disagree with the conclusion as it is a efficient design by being smaller and achieving the same performance with the same kind of hardware.


"More efficient" is quite misleading though. More efficient means that it's doing the same work with less resources, or more work with the same resources. In this case we don't know much for sure, but we do know that exhaust temperatures are higher and the heatsink is smaller. Exhaust temperatures increasing imply higher heatsink (and thus SoC) temperatures, so it's most likely doing less work (transferring less energy in the same amount of time, leading to a higher steady-state temperature), but also with a smaller heatsink. Less work with less resources? That might be equally efficient, or more, or less. That depends as much on how you calculate efficiency (which would by necessity include some complicated and possibly rather arbitrary formula balancing out heatsink mass, materials/thermal conductivity/heat emissivity, surface area, and so on) as on the measurable changes in performance, and that gets us pretty deep into the woods.

What can we say, then? We can say that this is likely still sufficient for cooling the PS5 (as Sony undoubtedly has the data to back that up, having collected metrics from millions of users over nearly a year), but has less headroom, while costing less and consuming less materials. In that regard it's more _cost-effective_, but that doesn't matter to end users, and frankly IDGAF about any metric that only or mainly benefits the bottom line of a giant corporation. It's likely less over-engineered, possibly better suited to its intended purpose (an overbuilt cooler is wasteful, after all), and likely still entirely sufficient while being smaller. Is that more efficient? No. Is it better? Depends who you ask. Is it worse? Likely not.


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## Lukalumen (Aug 31, 2021)

Valantar said:


> "More efficient" is quite misleading though. More efficient means that it's doing the same work with less resources, or more work with the same resources. In this case we don't know much for sure, but we do know that exhaust temperatures are higher and the heatsink is smaller. Exhaust temperatures increasing imply higher heatsink (and thus SoC) temperatures, so it's most likely doing less work (transferring less energy in the same amount of time, leading to a higher steady-state temperature), but also with a smaller heatsink. Less work with less resources? That might be equally efficient, or more, or less. That depends as much on how you calculate efficiency (which would by necessity include some complicated and possibly rather arbitrary formula balancing out heatsink mass, materials/thermal conductivity/heat emissivity, surface area, and so on) as on the measurable changes in performance, and that gets us pretty deep into the woods.
> 
> What can we say, then? We can say that this is likely still sufficient for cooling the PS5 (as Sony undoubtedly has the data to back that up, having collected metrics from millions of users over nearly a year), but has less headroom, while costing less and consuming less materials. In that regard it's more _cost-effective_, but that doesn't matter to end users, and frankly IDGAF about any metric that only or mainly benefits the bottom line of a giant corporation. It's likely less over-engineered, possibly better suited to its intended purpose (an overbuilt cooler is wasteful, after all), and likely still entirely sufficient while being smaller. Is that more efficient? No. Is it better? Depends who you ask. Is it worse? Likely not.


If the air coming out of the console is hotter than before, it doesn't mean the SoC and heatsink have higher temperatures, it means SoC and heatsink have lower temperatures since more of the heat is being pushed out of the console. Since the shape of the console and the fan have not changed, there is also no "smaller stream of air" coming out of it, which would be hotter than a "larger stream of air" with the same efficiency - as another person commented.
The only explanation with the data we have for now is that they tweaked the shape and placement of the heatsink to improve efficiency.
When I say efficiency, I mean better heat displacement (from inside of console to outside of console) for less cost. It costs less to produce, it has less of an environmental impact, it's uses less fuel and money to transport. Win/win


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## etayorius (Aug 31, 2021)

trsttte said:


> It's exactly that, the exclusive games (the controller is also pretty great). The xbox is slightly more powerfull (20-30% is an exageration imo but whatever) but I can play xbox games on the desktop anyway. Can't really do that for playstation exclusives.
> 
> 
> 
> It technically could be either one, you'd need more concrete data to be sure, but more than likely it's what you describe, hotter internals.



Well Xbox SeX has a 10% faster CPU. So a slightly faster Xbox CPU means the GPU will have 10% less GPU bottleneck compared to the PS5. In GPU the PS5 has 36 CUs vs the Xbox SeX 52 CUs. 2.23GHz Variable clock speed for PS5 and 1.825GHz for Xbox SeX. So a total of 10.28TFlops for PS5 and 12.15TFlops for Xbox SeX. Now that variable clock speed the PS5 has will not always be 2.24GHz as it will throttle every now and then when the console gets too hot, which is most likely to happen with the smaller Cooler Sony used with the new model.

In regards to SSD and overall bandwidth Sony seems to have the upper hand in there by a higher margin by almost 50%. I have tried both controls and they honestly feel the same, unless there is some new feature i am not aware of the PS5 Dual Sense? but i am a little more used to the Xbox Control shape since i been using Xbox 360/Xbox One controller when playing on PC.

So yeah. The Xbox SeX is faster overall, even if it was only a 20% is still a considerable amount. The smaller size of the Xbox SeX means it can be placed almost anywhere. I just can't get over how horrible and massive the PS5 is. Last gen i was totally against Xbone since Sony did everything right and M$ was completely out of touch. But this new gen people should be flocking to Xbox which it isn't the case... and i am trying to wrap my head around that fact.

Sony has literally won every single generation since their first console the PS1. I think people have just become too close to the PS brand and push anything else aside without giving other consoles a chance. It does happen, people tend to get crazy and fight over brands. I will say it again, this new gen if i had to choose a consoleI would pick the Xbox SeX every single time no contest. Specially now that Zenimax is now an exclusive to Xbox. I'm hardcore TES fan and i even got several mods on the top 100 NexusMods site. 

Lastly, i think Sony are shooting themselves in the foot with the solution to the upgrade path for SSD capacity. The Xbox solution might be more expensive, but you save yourself a lot of issues trying to figure out which models are supported. But then again, i'm on PC and chances for me even picking a console are very slim. Last console i owned was a N64 back in 1996. I haven't looked back once i moved to a PC with Windows 95 if i recall.


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## Valantar (Aug 31, 2021)

Lukalumen said:


> If the air coming out of the console is hotter than before, it doesn't mean the SoC and heatsink have higher temperatures, it means SoC and heatsink have lower temperatures since more of the heat is being pushed out of the console. Since the shape of the console and the fan have not changed, there is also no "smaller stream of air" coming out of it, which would be hotter than a "larger stream of air" with the same efficiency - as another person commented.
> The only explanation with the data we have for now is that they tweaked the shape and placement of the heatsink to improve efficiency.
> When I say efficiency, I mean better heat displacement (from inside of console to outside of console) for less cost. It costs less to produce, it has less of an environmental impact, it's uses less fuel and money to transport. Win/win


Sorry, but that's a misunderstanding of how thermal transfer works. Thermal transfer efficiency is reduced as the thermal delta between two media (such as an aluminium heatsink and air, or SoC and heatsink) diminishes. The closer in temperature the air and your heatsink, the less heat your heatsink will be able to give off (if they are the same temperature, no thermal transfer will occur). Conversely, this also means that in a scenario where you have a constant airflow and the same size heatsink, in order for the air coming off it to be hotter, you also need a hotter heatsink - if the heatsink and ambient air were both the same temperature, then the air coming off would stay the same.

For example, if your SoC is at 90°C at a given thermal output, your heatsink at 60°C and your ambient air at 20°C, you'll likely have very efficient thermal transfer across the whole chain, and your exhaust air is likely to be significantly warmer than the ambient temperature. If your heatsink instead ran at 80°C under the same conditions, that would lead to the exhaust air being hotter - but also the SoC temperature being more than 90°C under the same thermal load, as the thermal transfer efficiency between it and the heatsink would be significantly lower - it would be more difficult for the SoC to dump its heat into the heatsink, causing it to run hotter.

And what causes a hotter heatsink? A higher ratio of heat input to thermal mass and surface area. Of course, this isn't a scenario with the same heatsink, but a smaller heatsink exhausting hotter air. What that means is that you're concentrating the same thermal load as before into a smaller thermal mass (heatsink), increasing its temperature compared to the larger heatsink (assuming airflow is unchanged). This is great for transferring heat to air, as you increase the delta to ambient, improving thermal transfer due to the heatsink being hotter. But there's a downside: the same dynamic applies between your SoC and heatsink - the smaller the delta, the slower the thermal transfer. And given that the SoC is the heat source and will thus always be the hottest of the two, increasing heatsink temperatures lowers the delta between the SoC and heatsink, meaning the SoC at the same thermal load will run hotter, as it won't be able to dissipate its heat into the heatsink as efficiently as with the larger heatsink.

While thermodynamics get complicated very quickly, this is pretty simple, really. Assuming constant airflow and thermal load (SoC wattage):
Warmer exhaust air <- warmer heatsink <- warmer SoC

Increasing airflow, for example, would lower the exhaust air temperatures as it provides more thermal mass (air) to dissipate the heat from the heatsink into, spreading the same thermal energy into a larger volume of air, which will in turn lower the heatsink temperature. So, another way for the airflow temperatures to be higher is to have lower airflow - but airflow is unchanged. I assume that's what you're trying to say with the "larger/smaller stream of air" thing? I've been clear throughout every post written here that I'm assuming unchanged airflow. Which is why it's quite safe to assume that the PS5 SoC with this new cooler runs slightly hotter than previously.

So: a hotter exhaust temperature is indicative of a higher thermal delta between the heatsink and ambient air, which increases thermal transfer efficiency _in that specific part of the thermal transfer_. But that isn't the only part! A hotter heatsink - necessary for that efficiency increase - also indicates _worse_ thermal transfer efficiency between the SoC and heatsink, causing SoC temperatures to rise (. Overall, then, this will cause worse cooling, as the point of the cooler is to cool the SoC, not to have a large delta between heatsink and air.


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## mtcn77 (Aug 31, 2021)

Alan Smithee said:


> An indication the CPU is running hotter would be if the air exit temperature was _cooler_, because the cooling solution wouldn't be removing the heat as efficiently.


Well, this would actually be false without the same fan output which is not preserved in this circumstance.



Valantar said:


> Sorry, but that's a misunderstanding of how thermal transfer works. Thermal transfer efficiency is reduced as the thermal delta between two media (such as an aluminium heatsink and air, or SoC and heatsink) diminishes. The closer in temperature the air and your heatsink, the less heat your heatsink will be able to give off (if they are the same temperature, no thermal transfer will occur). Conversely, this also means that in a scenario where you have a constant airflow and the same size heatsink, in order for the air coming off it to be hotter, you also need a hotter heatsink - if the heatsink and ambient air were both the same temperature, then the air coming off would stay the same.
> 
> For example, if your SoC is at 90°C at a given thermal output, your heatsink at 60°C and your ambient air at 20°C, you'll likely have very efficient thermal transfer across the whole chain, and your exhaust air is likely to be significantly warmer than the ambient temperature. If your heatsink instead ran at 80°C under the same conditions, that would lead to the exhaust air being hotter - but also the SoC temperature being more than 90°C under the same thermal load, as the thermal transfer efficiency between it and the heatsink would be significantly lower - it would be more difficult for the SoC to dump its heat into the heatsink, causing it to run hotter.
> 
> ...


Yes, a lot has been iterated on this point. I want to chime in. Since exhaust air cannot be hotter than heatsink temperature, it is very dangerous to run a chip's heatsink temperature very close to thr chip thermal limit. The chip is not the overwhelming problem. Suppose it runs on digital vrm - those components are very susceptible to temperature thresholds and any time the gradient temperature between the chip and the heatsink diminishes, heat becomes increasingly spread with surface conduction, dumping the heat onto the vrms. Poole Frenkel Effect starts taking place and what was a manageable heat load on the power circuitry becomes an issue, because some idiot thought running the heatsink at its maximum steady state was a good idea. Don't run the chip at an equal temperature with the heatsink, or convection will be overwhelmed by conduction/radiation inside the case.


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## Chomiq (Aug 31, 2021)

Pretty much EOT:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432754904565682178Same power consumption, same performance, runs quiter.


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## mtcn77 (Aug 31, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Pretty much EOT:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432754904565682178Same power consumption, same performance, runs quiter.


I can swear Nidec can do it better without a doubt.


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## BorisDG (Aug 31, 2021)

How you can call the new console quieter since it's using the Nidec fan which was already pointed in many reviews/videos as the worst of three? Like i said it's all about chassis vibration and coil whine. Even if I touch sometimes my side panels the noise it's less. The whole situation is really absurd at this point.

Also he is saying the new fan has more blades? Nidec has 17 and Delta/NMB has 23... I guess his old is with Nidec and his new came with some other brand.. like I said pure lottery.


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## mtcn77 (Aug 31, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> How you can call the new console quieter since it's using the Nidec fan which was already pointed in many reviews/videos as the worst of three? Like i said it's all about chassis vibation and coil whine.


Good point because Nidec designed the Gentle Typhoon with vibration suspension. They did it before and can do it again. People come to think Noctua as quieter - if Nidec had FDB and not ball bearings, they wouldn't have any difference in that compartment...

PS: again, I detest any notion such advances could be put to downscaling of the cooler. The deltas have to be consistent between chip-heatsink and heatsink-exhaust air temperature.

It is dangerous to let heat dissipation take the form of conduction instead of convection in any other way.

Not sure I made it specific enough: heat and reduced cooling capacity is what makes Poole Frenkel Effect deadly. Cooling margin diminishes exponentially while cooling capacity increases linearly, as the temperature elevates. I wonder what is the cooling break even temperature, but I don't suspect it is higher than before...


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## RH92 (Aug 31, 2021)

HIGHLANDER58 said:


> You should know why Sony would cut the cooling down, *their engineers probably figured out the cooling was just a bit too good*  and most likely would offer a long life and in todays world, a company just cant have people owning things for a long time without having to keep buying new ones. After all, how else will all the over priced execs pay for all their bullshit.



That ain't happening chief not in that universe  , their cooling was already subpar as shown by GN testing . Seeing how big of a downgrade they have made , those unfortunate customers who received this new version can for sure expect some thermal throttling  at which point if i was one of them i would ask my money back since they are paying same money ( if not more ) for less performance !


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## Valantar (Sep 1, 2021)

RH92 said:


> That ain't happening chief not in that universe  , their cooling was already subpar as shown by GN testing . Seeing how big of a downgrade they have made , those unfortunate customers who received this new version can for sure expect some thermal throttling  at which point if i was one of them i would ask my money back since they are paying same money ( if not more ) for less performance !


GN just showed that the cooler didn't really touch the memory at all, using a steel plate to contact some of the memory chips. That hasn't changed, memory cooling is likely to be identically bad to previously, they just reduced the heatsink area for what it actually does cool meaningfully - the SoC.


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## trsttte (Sep 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You stated that with negative implication. Once again, there nothing nefarious going on with this change. It's a refinement, seemingly a well engineered one. The complaining and nay-saying by many before actual comparative tests have been conducted is unwarranted.



I mean, less and smaller heatpipes, less and smaller fins and a lot less copper volume on the baseplate (as it turns out it was never a vapor chamber as I thought, just looks like one, might still help with thermal mass particularly for the memory on the other side but meh), I think it's hard to argue that the original wasn't better (might still not be but to me looks very much like it) and they definitely found a way to make it cheaper.

It might have been too good and had margins to be reduced but you're getting a worse product even if it's still fine (or the new might perform better, I doubt it but will wait on testing that is not just measuring an exaust temp.)


On topic but surprisingly left out of the discussion, the wifi module also changed but since the only info we have is it now uses 2 antenas instead of 4, it's better to leave it out anyway


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## Zuli_Muli (Sep 1, 2021)

Alan Smithee said:


> "That is just measuring the air coming out" - you know that the air exit temperature being hotter indicates the cooling solution is working _better_, not worse, right? Getting rid of the heat is what the cooling solution _does_. An indication the CPU is running hotter would be if the air exit temperature was _cooler_, because the cooling solution wouldn't be removing the heat as efficiently.


Exit air can not be hotter then the hardware.  Or another way of putting it is in a passive system like this (heat pipes and fins with a fan) if the air coming out is hotter then it use to be then the chip is also running hotter.

Now most likely the fan is the bigger issue, if it really is a downgrade in airflow (L/min) from the old fan like they seem to have implied then what's happening is that there isn't as much air to carry away the heat as before so there is a build up of heat and there for higher temps.



Xex360 said:


> I disagree, given that both are air cooling so reaching steady state is fast say 2min, and the consoles produce a similar amount of heat say 200w, yet one console is exhausting more heat than the other, so either the new model is doing a better job, or the old model is dissipating heat through another way than the exhaust via the body of the console. Either way the new model seems more efficient.
> Here's a more serious article than the misleading nonsense of the YouTuber.
> 
> 
> ...


Exit air can not be hotter then the hardware. Or another way of putting it is in a passive system like this (heat pipes and fins with a fan) if the air coming out is hotter then it use to be then the chip is also running hotter.

Now most likely the fan is the bigger issue, if it really is a downgrade in airflow (L/min) from the old fan like they seem to have implied then what's happening is that there isn't as much air to carry away the heat as before so there is a build up in heat and the new equilibrium is now higher.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 1, 2021)

Zuli_Muli said:


> Exit air can not be hotter then the hardware.  Or another way of putting it is in a passive system like this (heat pipes and fins with a fan) if the air coming out is hotter then it use to be then the chip is also running hotter.
> 
> Now most likely the fan is the bigger issue, if it really is a downgrade in airflow (L/min) from the old fan like they seem to have implied then what's happening is that there isn't as much air to carry away the heat as before so there is a build up of heat and there for higher temps.


Most think this indicates efficiency when it is actually down the drain due to the presence of heat sump compounding the overall heat load. No component can cool off when the chip and the heatsink are at the same temperature.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 1, 2021)

This thread is friggin late, giving credit to @lynx29 for posting like 3 days ago on this


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## Totally (Sep 1, 2021)

trsttte said:


> I mean, less and smaller heatpipes, less and smaller fins and a lot less copper volume on the baseplate (as it turns out it was never a vapor chamber as I thought, just looks like one, might still help with thermal mass particularly for the memory on the other side but meh), I think it's hard to argue that the original wasn't better (might still not be but to me looks very much like it) and they definitely found a way to make it cheaper.
> 
> It might have been too good and had margins to be reduced but you're getting a worse product even if it's still fine (or the new might perform better, I doubt it but will wait on testing that is not just measuring an exaust temp.)
> 
> ...



The extra wires are just redundant antennas to reduce "blindspots" nothing special.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 1, 2021)

trsttte said:


> I mean, less and smaller heatpipes


Take a closer look.


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## Chomiq (Sep 1, 2021)

"smaller heatpipes"




ok...


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## Valantar (Sep 1, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> "smaller heatpipes"
> View attachment 215060
> ok...


Looks to me like they have streamlined the layout of the heatpipes from the previous version. There might be fewer of them as well, but it's difficult to tell from this angle. I'm assuming there are two (or at least one) in the middle fin stack as well. Probably simplified manufacturing significantly, with only one relatively loose bend per heatpipe (or two for the 1-2 pipes that pass into the small heatsink on the other side of the cold plate) rather than 2-3 quite tight ones on the previous design. The copper plate is also mostly redundant given that there are heatpipes running along the bottom of the fin stack (and from memory, GN's original teardown showed that no part of the cold plate was contacting anything but the core, with the steel midframe/RF shield being the only contact for RAM and VRMs). Also interesting to note the changes in the RF shield - looks like there have been noticeable changes to the peripheral VRMs (not SoC VRMs) of this updated version, with fewer/smaller parts of the shield raised to clear chokes. It also looks like there might be some improved VRAM "cooling" (as much as a steel plate can provide that) to the right of the heatsink, with a larger depression visible there.

Given the simplicity of this new design, I think I'll revise my previous guesstimate of cost savings - this is definitely more than a few dollars cheaper in total, at least when factoring in production costs, speed and complexity (reject rates for bent heatpipes specifically). The overall reduction in heatsink size isn't that huge though - it's mainly that bottom corner that's about 2x the size of the previous middle gap (though that is probably partially made up for by there now being heatpipes along the top _and _bottom of the entire leftmost fin stack, rather than half of it only having bottom heatpipes), and the middle section is larger. The leftmost portion is partially narrower, but ... meh.  That rightmost part is 1/3 the size, but I always thought that looked like it would do nothing but impede airflow anyhow, creating a three-deep stack of dense fin stacks and a very sub-optimal flow path. The creation of the bottom left gap as such likely makes this part of the heatsink more useful, reducing flow impedance. Enough to make up for the smaller size? No idea, I'd guess not, but it's less wasteful regardless.

I still don't doubt for a second that this is a weaker cooler overall, but it also has clear signs of being significantly optimized both for cost and for making the most of the flow path and characteristics of the design, rather than just stuffing everything full of weirdly placed fins.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 1, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> "smaller heatpipes"
> View attachment 215060
> ok...


Same size(width) heatpipes, but MUCH longer and more of them running along the lateral cooling fins. This cooling solution is an example of applied science. They made a design and learned from it. They revised the design to get the same cooling effect but with materials that cost less, weigh less and are easier to build. Nickel plating Aluminium is less expensive, less time consuming and easier to do than Nickel plating Copper and yet provide very similar thermal performance properties. Once again, much-ado-about-nothing. See below.



Valantar said:


> Looks to me like they have streamlined the layout of the heatpipes from the previous version. There might be fewer of them as well, but it's difficult to tell from this angle.


See below image;



The red lines are heatpipe pathways, approx. The pink circled areas are where they moved cooling fins to be more effective.

The heatpipe pathways are now much more efficient as they take better advantage of the airflow within the chassis. The circled pink areas are cooling fins that were moved because they were not as efficient where they were placed.

These changes clearly reflect research and understanding being put to work in a way that makes the design more effective. The materials changed only reflect that the Sony engineers learned about the properties of one metal VS another as applied to this specific design and opted to make a choice that would improve manufacturing time, manufacturing complexity and cost, all without sacrificing the overall cooling capacity of the heatsink.

The complaints made by Austin and those who agree with him are *without merit*. This redesign is an improvement is every way possible. People need to quit complaining.


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## Valantar (Sep 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Same size(width) heatpipes, but MUCH longer and more of them running along the lateral cooling fins. This cooling solution is an example of applied science. They made a design and learned from it. They revised the design to get the same cooling effect but with materials that cost less, weigh less and are easier to build. Nickel plating Aluminium is less expensive, less time consuming and easier to do than Nickel plating Copper and yet provide very similar thermal performance properties. Once again, much-ado-about-nothing. See below.
> 
> 
> See below image;
> ...


Your drawing isn't quite accurate. Going from iFixit's teardown shots, the bottom left heatsink has one pair of pipes through it, which are the same ones that bend up and run along the top of the top left heatsink. The top left heatsink also has a second pair running along its bottom, which presumably run in a diagonal line through the middle heatsink. 

Edit: hey, would'ya look at that, they've got an X-ray. Makes this simple. What we can tell: that heatsink had _a lot_ of bends in its heatpipes. Unnecessarily so. That likely made production pretty wasteful. The X-ray also shows us how unnecessarily complicated the flow path for that original heatsink is, and how it likely impedes flow noticeably with that huge fin stack in the middle of the chassis with its fins perpendicular to the air coming off the fan. 

The air coming off the heatsink being hotter is still indicative of higher internal temperatures, but alongside reports of it being quieter I'm now leaning towards lower fan speeds being the cause of this, with the increase in internal temperatures being down to Sony seeing that a more relaxed fan curve is okay for the vast majority of users. As for the heatsink itself, its total theoretical dissipation is undoubtedly lower, but given the significant flow impedance optimizations and better heatpipe coverage, I'm tempted to think that the net result in actually cooling PS5s in the PS5 chassis is probably very similar. At the very worst it's still close enough that they could still reduce fan speeds without causing throttling.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 1, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Your drawing isn't quite accurate.


It was close enough for everyone to see the point.


Valantar said:


> Edit: hey, would'ya look at that, they've got an X-ray. Makes this simple.


Yeah there we go. Now we need an XRay of the other one.


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## trsttte (Sep 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Take a closer look.





Chomiq said:


> "smaller heatpipes"
> 
> ok...



I don't have them to measure but in the video Austin said they were smaller and they look smaller (in width obviously!)



lexluthermiester said:


> Same size(width) heatpipes, but MUCH longer and more of them running along the lateral cooling fins. This cooling solution is an example of applied science. They made a design and learned from it. They revised the design to get the same cooling effect but with materials that cost less, weigh less and are easier to build. Nickel plating Aluminium is less expensive, less time consuming and easier to do than Nickel plating Copper and yet provide very similar thermal performance properties. Once again, much-ado-about-nothing. See below.
> 
> (...)
> 
> The complaints made by Austin and those who agree with him are *without merit*. This redesign is an improvement is every way possible. People need to quit complaining.



The new design might be an improvement in manufacture in every way possible, but it certainly isn't for the end product. Might still be fine but less heatpipes, less thermal mass, less heatsink area is not better, absolutely it can work perfectly fine but it's not *better*


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 1, 2021)

trsttte said:


> I don't have them to measure but in the video Austin said they were smaller and they look smaller (in width obviously!)
> 
> 
> 
> The new design might be an improvement in manufacture in every way possible, but it certainly isn't for the end product. Might still be fine but less heatpipes, less thermal mass, less heatsink area is not better, absolutely it can work perfectly fine but it's not *better*


We'll just wait for the benchmark testing then.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> We'll just wait for the benchmark testing then.


Best plan, it's hard to be definitively pissed without benches personally.


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## Valantar (Sep 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> We'll just wait for the benchmark testing then.


The problem is there's no real way to measure SoC temperatures (a thermocouple on the SoC might kill it due to poor contact after all). Best you can do is a thermocouple next to/underneath the SoC, which is less than ideal, though it will give an indication. Hoping GN picks up where their previous teardown+testing left off (including memory thermals).


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## RH92 (Sep 2, 2021)

Valantar said:


> GN just showed that the cooler didn't really touch the memory at all, using a steel plate to contact some of the memory chips. That hasn't changed, memory cooling is likely to be identically bad to previously, they just reduced the heatsink area for what it actually does cool meaningfully - the SoC.



Yes they showed memory being the big issue but not only that . SOC is HOT aswell , they show 73 degrees but keep in mind this is just measuring underneath the SOC ( they didn't remove the heatsink ) so the silicon itself is probably in the low to mid 80 degrees . With the new heatsink being massively downscaled you can expect the SOC to be in the high 80 if not 90 degrees , knowing PS5 boost algorithme is very variable you can be sure this is going to impact performance on demanding games .


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## Chomiq (Sep 2, 2021)

The best part about this "controversy" is that at least in Poland people were trying to get the new revision because it runs quieter.


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## BorisDG (Sep 2, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> The best part about this "controversy" is that at least in Poland people were trying to get the new revision because it runs quieter.


It's from unit to unit. Usually fans are quiet. The problem is the vibrations over the plastic chassis and the coil whine which is super common.


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## Valantar (Sep 2, 2021)

RH92 said:


> Yes they showed memory being the big issue but not only that . SOC is HOT aswell , they show 73 degrees but keep in mind this is just measuring underneath the SOC ( they didn't remove the heatsink ) so the silicon itself is probably in the low to mid 80 degrees . With the new heatsink being massively downscaled you can expect the SOC to be in the high 80 if not 90 degrees , knowing PS5 boost algorithme is very variable you can be sure this is going to impact performance on demanding games .


Silicon is perfectly fine running at 90°C essentially forever, so this isn't really an issue. It's only an issue if a) the console becomes noisier, b) the console becomes unable to avoid thermal throttling (which could be anywhere from 100-110°C) increased SoC thermals cause other components close by to overheat.

As for the boost algorithm, that's a misrepresentation. The PS5 does not boost in the same way a PC does (i.e. in direct relation to thermals and power draw), but follows a DVFS curve set from a "model SoC" _depending on _the _load scenario_. In other words, performance is adjusted not through an answer to the question "how hot am I, and how much power am I consuming?", but through an answer to the question "what software am I running, and what level of performance do I need to deliver in this scenario?". From what I've seen it won't throttle, but rather ramp up its fan if needed. (Obviously it will throttle _at some point_, but only when it actually overheats. And being a console, it's likely to throw an overheating error and shut down/freeze to protect itself at that point.) And those fans have _a lot_ left in the tank in normal conditions.


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## Crackong (Sep 10, 2021)

ok , 
HardwareBusters did the test.
And the new cooler isn't a cut down
It just trade memory temps for CPU core temps.
New version's core temp is 10C cooler than the old ones.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 10, 2021)

Crackong said:


> ok ,
> HardwareBusters did the test.
> And the new cooler isn't a cut down
> It just trade memory temps for CPU core temps.
> New version's core temp is 10C cooler than the old ones.


And there we are, more info showing an improvement. The higher exhaust temp? That's a good thing. It means the cooling system is extracting heat better. This is why engineers get paid the big money.


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## Valantar (Sep 10, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> And there we are, more info showing an improvement. The higher exhaust temp? That's a good thing. It means the cooling system is extracting heat better. This is why engineers get paid the big money.


Lol, it's so confusing that there are two threads on this. We've been discussing this for quite a while over in the other thread. The methodology is ... a bit iffy (especially measuring SoC temperatures on the outside of the RF shield on the opposite side of the PCB, which means the thermal pathway is core->package->BGA->PCB->(likely various SMDs+some air->)rear cover->(air->)retention bracket->(air->)RF shield), but probably good enough for a like-for-like comparsion. I'm also very curious why HWB's "old" VRM temps are ~half of what GN found. Still, if anything this demonstrates that the original cooler design must have been pretty terrible overall. Most of us have been assuming that the baseline was a good cooler and discussing how this might improve (or not) on that, which is quite different from starting from a _bad_ cooler and discussing how that might improve. I still struggle to understand how a too restrictive design can result in lower exhaust temperatures (with the same thermal load and slower air movement the air should be heating up more, not less, as it spends more time close to the heat source), but there's probably some other factor in play here that I'm not understanding.

(One possible explanation from looking at some teardown pics: if the original heatsink was sufficiently restrictive, that might have caused more air to leave through the (much smaller, but less restricted) back-of-the-motherboard vents, causing a significant part of the airflow to just bypass the heatsink entirely. This is pure guesswork of course, and it also begs the question of how this would affect temperatures measured on this side (given that everyone is using disc-less PS5s for this there's no ODD to block airflow behind the SoC). A steel RF shield isn't a good heatsink, so the difference from this is likely far less than any difference from more air actually going through the heatsink. But it would be interesting to see some experiments around this, for example by taping over the exhaust vents coming from the rear of the motherboard on the old design and seeing if/how this affects airflow and exhaust temperatures. (Of course that would likely cause the VRMs to overheat, so not exactly a fix for anything  )


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## BorisDG (Sep 11, 2021)

Crackong said:


> ok ,
> HardwareBusters did the test.
> And the new cooler isn't a cut down
> It just trade memory temps for CPU core temps.
> New version's core temp is 10C cooler than the old ones.


If the memory is now more hot than previous, that's really bad news, since PS5's memory ran already toasty. The APU was never a big issue.


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## Valantar (Sep 11, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> If the memory is now more hot than previous, that's really bad news, since PS5's memory ran already toasty. The APU was never a big issue.


What they label as 'memory' there is one of the SSD's NAND chips. They didn't measure RAM temperatures for some reason.


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## BorisDG (Sep 11, 2021)

I rather have more hot SOC than any memory chip.


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## Tardian (Sep 14, 2021)

Engineering World Cup?


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## mtcn77 (Sep 14, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> If the memory is now more hot than previous, that's really bad news, since PS5's memory ran already toasty. The APU was never a big issue.


Do you know what part of chip gets hot when stress testing because heat cycles kill faster than absolute temperature.


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## Chomiq (Sep 16, 2021)

Test results from GN and DF are out:

















Long story short - performance wise they run exactly the same. VRM and MOSFETs thermals - improved, memory - within 2-4C difference due to better coverage on new chasis.

So yeah, so much for some folks saying boost algo is the same for PS5 SoC as for Ryzen CPU on a PC.

GN even pulled a frankenconsole with a combo of chassis A and B.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 16, 2021)

Good for them. They really need to up their game and not fall to the same mistake again conforming to cancel culture, if they are any serious about their journalistic integrity.

PS: I find enough is enough with the naysayer pundits. We shouldn't run hasty judgement based on their manipulations and actively silence all their flamebait in all platforms - even when they use their tech channels to push internet hate.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 16, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Test results from GN and DF are out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was predictable... I mean really, who would have thought that engineers would know their craft. And wouldn't you know it, the newer, redesigned heatsink(which costs MUCH less money and resources to make) works very well. What a fricken shocker..


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## Tardian (Sep 16, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was predictable... I mean really, who would have thought that engineers would know their craft. And wouldn't you know it, the newer, redesigned heatsink(which costs MUCH less money and resources to make) works very well. What a fricken shocker..


I did.


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Good for them. They really need to up their game and not fall to the same mistake again conforming to cancel culture, if they are any serious about their journalistic integrity.
> 
> PS: I find enough is enough with the naysayer pundits. We shouldn't run hasty judgement based on their manipulations and actively silence all their flamebait in all platforms - even when they use their tech channels to push internet hate.


Or view hungry YTers ~ they're worst *IMO*, always chasing clicks & then claiming we made a (honest?) mistake later on!


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## Tardian (Sep 17, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Or view hungry YTers ~ they're worst *IMO*, always chasing clicks & then claiming we made a (honest?) mistake later on!





> Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.





> “The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry.”


Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms

Mr Reaper is in no special hurry for me.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 17, 2021)

Tardian said:


> Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms
> 
> Mr Reaper is in no special hurry for me.


He was an alcoholic. They never overcome splitting.


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## Tardian (Sep 17, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> He was an alcoholic. They never overcome splitting.


Greatest is a heavy burden. Living up to his public persona _would_ have required lubrication. The mask becomes permanently affixed.



> High flying, adored!
> I hope you come
> To terms with boredom
> So famous so easily
> ...


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## mtcn77 (Sep 17, 2021)

Tardian said:


> Greatest


It is a black and white splitting, too. Don't be too superfluous.


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## Tardian (Sep 17, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It is a black and white splitting, too. Don't be too superfluous.


Happy to discuss before we get accused of going off-topic.  My aunt just turned 90. She wasn't alive when _A Farewell to Arms_ was published. The use of the N-word was a literary tool. Leave the PC stuff to TPU.

My PS5 (disc version) arrives on October 4, 2021.


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## AleXXX666 (Sep 17, 2021)

HIGHLANDER58 said:


> You should know why Sony would cut the cooling down, their engineers probably figured out the cooling was just a bit too good  and most likely would offer a long life and in todays world, a company just cant have people owning things for a long time without having to keep buying new ones. After all, how else will all the over priced execs pay for all their bullshit.


it's people's OWN decision what to buy and what not to buy, my friend... i bought 3060Ti for $900 just because I wanted one, and not crying and yelling "how big prices are". but if I haven't sold my old 2070S once, I kept using it till these, lol.


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## GrumpyOtaku (Sep 17, 2021)

ARF said:


> Err, except that the customers are not so stupid and will not buy the new ones  You know what customers satisfaction is?



You have too high an opinion of the sheeple in the general public.   If these companies hadn't _already_ been able to get away with this sort of nonsense in the past, they wouldn't be emboldened to pull _even more_ of it now and in the future. The general public will just nod with blank stares in their eyes, and then bend over and take it again. After all these are the same sorts that voted for Creepy Joe and to keep Emperor Newsom.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 18, 2021)

jelabarre59 said:


> You have too high an opinion of the sheeple in the general public.


You both assume most people care. They do not. Most people just want their system to run so they can have fun. It's only us geeks that care about the nitty-gritty tech specs.


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## Tardian (Sep 18, 2021)

I just hope to live long enough to play GT8 on my PS6 and then GT9 on my PS7.


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## chrcoluk (Sep 18, 2021)

Good news on the cooling, I expect better airflow as well as better contact has helped, a bigger heatsink is not necessarily good when space is at a premium for air movement.

My concern is however DF seems to have insider info which suggests Sony potentially had input on the video.  The bit that got my attention is when he mentioned how the boost algorithm works, this information as far as I can tell is not released to the public by Sony.  Apparently the performance isn't variable from unit to unit based on temps and power limits but rather the clocks are forced and if for some reason the console cannot handle it then it will crash/shutdown instead.  So looks like a conversation happened between DF and Sony, whether it was just for technical clarification or more was said will never know.

It was good they used the same PS5 board on both cases, as the voltage needed for each clock will vary from unit to unit dependent on silicon quality, so that was the best way to test.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 18, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> Good news on the cooling, I expect better airflow as well as better contact has helped, a bigger heatsink is not necessarily good when space is at a premium for air movement.
> 
> My concern is however DF seems to have insider info which suggests Sony potentially had input on the video.  The bit that got my attention is when he mentioned how the boost algorithm works, this information as far as I can tell is not released to the public by Sony.  Apparently the performance isn't variable from unit to unit based on temps and power limits but rather the clocks are forced and if for some reason the console cannot handle it then it will crash/shutdown instead.  So looks like a conversation happened between DF and Sony, whether it was just for technical clarification or more was said will never know.
> 
> It was good they used the same PS5 board on both cases, as the voltage needed for each clock will vary from unit to unit dependent on silicon quality, so that was the best way to test.


Not sure how you get from it being one profile for all like a typical AMD product to individual voltage curve's personally.

They typically use one power voltage and fan curve per SKU and set it up so that ANY quality of chip above the minimum defect point works as intended and largely the same as any other.

Variations in quality and build quality then only get reflected in operating temperature alone and not performance.


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## Shrek (Sep 18, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was predictable... I mean really, who would have thought that engineers would know their craft. And wouldn't you know it, the newer, redesigned heatsink(which costs MUCH less money and resources to make) works very well. What a fricken shocker..



Indeed:

“An engineer can do for a dollar what any fool can do for two.”
― Arthur Mellen Wellington


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## Tardian (Sep 19, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Indeed:
> 
> “An engineer can do for a dollar what any fool can do for two.”
> ― Arthur Mellen Wellington


However, an accountant may be needed to scale back the gold-plating.


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## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> Good news on the cooling, I expect better airflow as well as better contact has helped, a bigger heatsink is not necessarily good when space is at a premium for air movement.
> 
> My concern is however DF seems to have insider info which suggests Sony potentially had input on the video.  The bit that got my attention is when he mentioned how the boost algorithm works, this information as far as I can tell is not released to the public by Sony.  Apparently the performance isn't variable from unit to unit based on temps and power limits but rather the clocks are forced and if for some reason the console cannot handle it then it will crash/shutdown instead.  So looks like a conversation happened between DF and Sony, whether it was just for technical clarification or more was said will never know.
> 
> It was good they used the same PS5 board on both cases, as the voltage needed for each clock will vary from unit to unit dependent on silicon quality, so that was the best way to test.


This has been widely reported. Here's Eurogamer/DF's initial article reporting on how PS5 boosting works. There is zero indication that Sony had input on this video - this was reported 18 months ago. It is by no means new information. It really, really, really shouldn't be worrying to you that press has better access to information than the general public. That is literally their job.


Chomiq said:


> Test results from GN and DF are out:
> 
> Long story short - performance wise they run exactly the same. VRM and MOSFETs thermals - improved, memory - within 2-4C difference due to better coverage on new chasis.
> 
> ...


The SoC is also marginally warmer, but yeah, overall the new cooler looks good. Mainly speaks to the original design being (surprisingly) bad, which might indicate either a rushed design or someone on the cooler design team being prone to over-engineering rather than efficient design. Either way, a more efficient cooler is good for pretty much everyone. Less materials used, lighter weight=less shipping emissions, lower cost has the potential to enable sales/rebates/price cuts in the future (though I'm not betting on that last one). And I don't think the savings are sufficient to really impact Sony's bottom line, so it's not like they're laughing all the way to the bank either.


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## BorisDG (Sep 23, 2021)

Valantar said:


> ... Mainly speaks to the original design being (surprisingly) bad ....


Why it's bad? Actually it's still better since the SoC is much cooler. That the memory on the other hand is now better it's not exactly due to the cooler itself, but more to the backplate and the contact points. Fan seems also a factor. The "hated" Nidec looks better than NMB.


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## chrcoluk (Sep 23, 2021)

Well I read that article, and part of it states the opposite of what is been said.

Here is the exact quote.



> According to Sony, _all PS5 consoles process the same workloads with the same performance level in any environment, no matter what the ambient temperature may be_.
> 
> So how does boost work in this case? Put simply, the PlayStation 5 is given a set power budget tied to the thermal limits of the cooling assembly. "It's a completely different paradigm," says Cerny. "Rather than running at constant frequency and letting the power vary based on the workload, we run at essentially constant power and let the frequency vary based on the workload."



This indicates there is nothing unusual about the boost algorithm and instead seems to indicate that Sony have made sure the voltages they run at are the same for every single chip that goes in each console. (binned voltages same as worst chips for the better chips).  Effectively removing silicon lottery on performance.



> It really, really, really shouldn't be worrying to you that press has better access to information than the general public. That is literally their job.



Each to their own opinion, I personally think reviewers have a too friendly relationship with the companies that make the products they review.  I have no issue if they have gone out and researched to find the info in a public document somewhere, my issue is if the information is provided exclusively to the reviewer(s) so they can publish it.  I wont comment on this again in this thread though as its off topic.


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## Valantar (Sep 23, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Why it's bad? Actually it's still better since the SoC is much cooler. That the memory on the other hand is now better it's not exactly due to the cooler itself, but more to the backplate and the contact points. Fan seems also a factor. The "hated" Nidec looks better than NMB.


It's bad (=inefficient) because they manage functionally the same (slightly worse SoC, slightly better everything else) cooling with a significantly smaller and simpler cooler design. Even if some of that change is due to better cold plate/midframe design, the results still demonstrate that the original design was poorly optimized and laid out, making far worse use of its materials and construction. When you can reduce the cooler's mass by 16% (1639g v. 1368g) without meaningfully affecting performance (+~4°C, or +5.6%), this speaks to the original design being significantly ineffective. While thermal dissipation per cooler mass isn't the be-all-end-all of cooler efficiency, this is a big enough discrepancy to pretty conclusively indicate that the initial cooler design had a design with significant issues. Of course, there are also other fixes to rather mind-boggling issues, like the previous _tiny_ dimples in the midframe contacting the RAM - something that borders on outright incompetent design. But overall, the new design seems more sensible, better designed to the task (rather than overbuild to the degree of becoming problematic), and more than sufficient for what it's made for. When that can be done with what is visibly a simpler (and thus cheaper) design using less materials, again, that speaks to the original design being a poor design.



chrcoluk said:


> Well I read that article, and part of it states the opposite of what is been said.
> 
> Here is the exact quote.
> 
> This indicates there is nothing unusual about the boost algorithm and instead seems to indicate that Sony have made sure the voltages they run at are the same for every single chip that goes in each console. (binned voltages same as worst chips for the better chips).  Effectively removing silicon lottery on performance.


That is a rather selecive quote that does not tell the whole story. That quote essentially describes any CPU or SoC with a reasonably modern opportunistic boosting system with thermal and power limits. The key clarification comes from this quote, two paragraphs further down:


			
				Digital Foundry said:
			
		

> While it's true that every piece of silicon has slightly different temperature and power characteristics, the monitor bases its determinations on the behaviour of what Cerny calls a 'model SoC' (system on chip) - a standard reference point for every PlayStation 5 that will be produced.
> 
> The PlayStation 5 has variable frequencies for CPU and GPU, with an internal monitor adjusting clocks to keep the system within its power budget.
> "Rather than look at the actual temperature of the silicon die, we look at the activities that the GPU and CPU are performing and set the frequencies on that basis - which makes everything deterministic and repeatable," Cerny explains in his presentation. "While we're at it, we also use AMD's SmartShift technology and send any unused power from the CPU to the GPU so it can squeeze out a few more pixels."


This is how the boosting system differs from PC and mobile CPUs, APUs and SoCs - through boosting to _predetermined_ levels of performance based on _the workload_ as tested on a prototypical 'model SoC' rather than real-world, in-use thermal and power metrics. This means that there _will_ be variance in real-world PS5s depending on the silicon lottery - some will consume a bit more power, some will run a tad hotter - but they will all deliver consistent performance. (They are clearly binned to ensure that all SoCs used meet baseline performance and power metrics to be able to reasonably match model SoC performance and not overheat).


chrcoluk said:


> Each to their own opinion, I personally think reviewers have a too friendly relationship with the companies that make the products they review.  I have no issue if they have gone out and researched to find the info in a public document somewhere, my issue is if the information is provided exclusively to the reviewer(s) so they can publish it.  I wont comment on this again in this thread though as its off topic.


I know this is a bit OT, but this really rubs me the wrong way - probably due to this hitting too close to home (I work in and have my education in media studies). What you are presenting here _seems_ like sensible, basic media literacy - "be critical of your sources", "question the closeness of reporters to their sources", etc. However, your application of it as demonstrated above is simplistic and black-and-white to a level of near parody. What you are arguing for here is essentially the abolition of journalism. You say they should "find the info in a public document somewhere" - where? Which public documents? _They don't exist_. This information is not made public, it is proprietary information that companies do not part with voluntarily. You _might_ find something useful in something like a patent application or grant, but those are slow to be published and don't actually show if the patent was ever implemented or if they just patented an idea. There would be no confirmation of this _actually_ being present. This boost system would have been a complete black box to the public if not for journalists asking questions.

Now, yes, the tech press is generally _far_ too close to the industry, and most "reporting" (especially, but not limited to YouTube) toes the line between reporting and advertising _very_ closely. Of course a lot of it _is_ advertising, or "sponsored content" as they like to call it. DF is by no means flawless in this regard - there was a previous situation (their 3080 preview, I think) where their video omitted a key paragraph from the written article that highlighted how Nvidia had set the limitations for what they were allowed to benchmark and report on. This was clearly problematic, but it was also a preview, explicitly worded as such, and something that by its very definition was _not_ a full review. They should have been equally clear on this in the video as in writing, but the issue is not their getting access in the first place.

But - and this is crucial - balancing closeness to sources with the responsibility to deliver information to the public in a way that is as neutral and unbiased as possible? That is their job. That is the very core of journalism. Doing the work of gaining access in order to gain insight and provide information that the public would otherwise not have had access to. _Discussing_ this balance is extremely valuable. But you show no interest in discussing it, instead dismissing it outright, implicitly stating that _any_ access beyond publicly available documents is problematic to an unacceptable degree. This is an extreme judgement, and not one that stands up to any type of scrutiny, as it makes reporting news essentially impossible. Should crime reporters only base their reporting on public police statements, and not seek out detectives or witnesses? Should political reporters refuse to talk to politicians, instead relying solely on press releases? Remember, actually talking to someone is the only way you can possibly hope to ask them questions. Basing your work on already published documentation gives the sources _more_ power, both through giving them the power to preemptively edit their statements as well as removing the power of others to ask follow-up questions. And without access - without contacts, some degree of closeness - you're never going to get to ask a follow-up question. This is _obviously_ not the same as saying "we should blindly trust everythign everyone claiming to be a journalist says". Not even close. But _some_ degree of trust is _necessary_. The world cannot work without trust. And without some trust in journalistic integrity, we lose access to _massive_ amounts of valuable information, instead letting companies and those in power define the truth.


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## Shrek (Sep 24, 2021)

Really need to change the title given that it seems not to be correct.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 24, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Really need to change the title given that it seems not to be correct.


I'd say provide a update to the OP too.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Really need to change the title given that it seems not to be correct.





TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I'd say provide a update to the OP too.


Agreed, given that the changes have been proven to be an improvement.


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## barbabarba (Sep 24, 2021)

Will you be retracting, editing, or making a new post about this, in the wake of Gamers Nexus showing this to be absolutely false?


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