# "Always On" DRM Idea gets more publishers.



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

Damn this Internet DRM crap. Its getting out of hand.



> Namco Bandai Partners Supporting "Always On" DRM Idea
> 
> Namco Bandai Partners VP, Olivier Comte, in speaking with CVG has called Ubisoft's always-on DRM solution for PC games "a good strategy" in the absence of an alternative.
> 
> ...



Source


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jun 1, 2010)

Boycott!!!


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

Go ahead and tack on all the drm you want cause my back log is more then big enough for me not to care about your shit future releases. So drm away publishers cause I could care less


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 1, 2010)

Even though I don't like a single game they produce and wouldn't have bought any to begin with..


I SAY BOYCOTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## assaulter_99 (Jun 1, 2010)

Sad reality is, we'll have to live with it, its either that, or buy a box that hooks with the tv to play our games. Its sucks yes, but we have to admit piracy is rampant. That doesn't give devs much choice. Anyways, drm isnt the option, like it has been proved countless times. Just take a look at modern warfare 2, you're supposed to log in online to play (multiplayer) even this has been hacked, some guys just put up alteriw.net and thousands of people are on it. Meh, I'm tired of this shit.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

You pirates make me sick.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

pirates have pushed these companies to the very edge. now they have no alternative but enforce the most strictest of DRM controls. they have nobody to blame but themselves.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You pirates make me sick.



Pirates will pirate regardless of the DRM technology. It's the moronic companies that make it worse for consumers. I will not buy another ubisoft game until they're DRM is gone. If others establish it, I will not buy the game.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> pirates have pushed these companies to the very edge. now they have no alternative but enforce the most strictest of DRM controls. they have nobody to blame but themselves.



And now we have to pay for these dumb asses and their cheapness.



DrPepper said:


> Pirates will pirate regardless of the DRM technology. It's the moronic companies that make it worse for consumers. I will not buy another ubisoft game until they're DRM is gone. If others establish it, I will not buy the game.



And the only reason DRM exists is because of pirates so your argument is null. I won't buy something because of DRM but I understand why publishers are going this route.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And now we have to pay for these dumb asses and their cheapness.



Actually it feels like these companies are exagerrating their loses to piracy to kill of pc gaming because it isn't as profitable as consoles.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> pirates have pushed these companies to the very edge. now they have no alternative but enforce the most strictest of DRM controls. they have nobody to blame but themselves.



Pirates have not pushed anyone anywhere, please tell me you dont buy into that shit :shadedshu  Piracy has existed since the very beginning of video games and last time i checked...the industry right now is bigger then it ever was...and is projected to keep getting bigger with no end in sight.  Ever think maybe all this drm is driving more and more people to pirate?  Im sorry but i hope every company that uses this crap burns to the ground.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Actually it feels like these companies are exagerrating their loses to piracy to kill of pc gaming because it isn't as profitable as consoles.



it doesnt matter if they are exaggerating. they are the owners, the pirates are the thieves. now we all have to be treated like thieves because some people refuse to pay for a game or have some strange grudge against game companies who provide them with all of their fun.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Actually it feels like these companies are exagerrating their loses to piracy to kill of pc gaming because it isn't as profitable as consoles.



Do you think they care what we think? Really? If that were the case they would just cease to make games for the PC. They don't need vast conspiracies.



Phxprovost said:


> Pirates have not pushed anyone anywhere, please tell me you dont buy into that shit :shadedshu  Piracy has existed since the very beginning of video games and last time i checked...the industry right now is bigger then it ever was...and is projected to keep getting bigger with no end in sight.  Ever think maybe all this drm is driving more and more people to pirate?  Im sorry but i hope every company that uses this crap burns to the ground.



And now comes the argument to justify theft.

Do you have ANY idea how much DRM costs these companies? Between DRM and piracy PC game publishers are getting their asses kicked. DRM is the only way to secure new investors.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 1, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> it doesnt matter if they are exaggerating. they are the owners, the pirates are the thieves. now we all have to be treated like thieves because some people refuse to pay for a game or have some strange grudge against game companies who provide them with all of their fun.



So where is the logic and reason behind such intrusive DRM. It has the opposite effect it lowers sales for games and lowers customer satisfaction. The only people getting screwed are those who bay money for it.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Do you think they care what we think? Really? If that were the case they would just cease to make games for the PC. They don't need vast conspiracies.



yea you try telling your share holders your not making pc games anymore without the aid of "vast conspiracies"


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> yea you try telling your share holders your not making pc games anymore without the aid of "vast conspiracies"



Try getting investors without DRM. 

Investors care about money. They do not care about the product but how their investment is protected.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> So where is the logic and reason behind such intrusive DRM. It has the opposite effect it lowers sales for games and lowers customer satisfaction. The only people getting screwed are those who bay money for it.



obviously it is not lowering sales.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And now comes the argument to justify theft.



ohh but its not theft its copyright infringement


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Try getting investors without DRM.



pc games have existed for 20 years without intrusive drm


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

copyright laws exist to protect companies from thieves. it grants the govt legal authority to levy fines and possibly jail time to those who infringe upon it.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> pc games have existed for 20 years without intrusive drm



Yeah? Did Pac Man take 25 million to develop?


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah? Did Pac Man take 25 million to develop?



did pacman spend 5 million on drm and 50 million+ on marketing?


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

why would anyone who pays for games condone piracy? the pirates are the ones who do not pay for the games. that means they get free stuff all provided by those of us who do actually pay. now those of us who pay have to deal with stupid drm policies.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> did pacman spend 5 million on drm and 50 million+ on marketing?



Dude read this. Then think REALLY hard about your position.



> Modern Warfare 2 cost $40-$50 million
> 
> A further $200 million on marketing and production.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gzero (Jun 1, 2010)

I reckon we are going a little off topic here, lets rain it in. It's the PUBLISHERS that are calling for the DRM. They hold the final profits/sales figures.

The internet has opened the door to both the pirates and the publishers for methods to curb each other.

Remember the manual for Grand Prix? That was dang hard DRM back then.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Dude read this. Then think REALLY hard about your position.



I fail to see what your showing me, i know how much games cost to make and guess what? They waste a shit ton on needless marketing, congrats on spending what was it? like 500 million on marketing MW2?...like every single person on the planet didn't know the game already existed and when it was coming out...but that was money well spent right?   Rockstar is another culprit in needless spending


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

well as usual people are upset at the publishers and not at the pirates. why do the pirates always get a free pass?


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 1, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> well as usual people are upset at the publishers and not at the pirates. why do the pirates always get a free pass?



maybe cause the pirates are not the ones directly infecting my pc with needless drms?  Lets see, game is release with drm, pirate never even sees drm...i get plagued with it.  About the only thing i hate pirates for is the fact that their end product is better then the one i just paid $60 for


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 1, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> I fail to see what your showing me, i know how much games cost to make and guess what? They waste a shit ton on needless marketing, congrats on spending what was it? like 500 million on marketing MW2...like every single person on the planet didn't know the game already existed and when it was coming out...but that was money well spent right?   Rockstar is another culprit in needless spending



The reason you knew about that game was because of marketing. Try getting 200 million dollars worth of investors without some "guarantee" their investment is "protected".



Phxprovost said:


> maybe cause the pirates are not the ones directly infecting my pc with needless drms?



Oh but they are. DRMs were created because of stupid ass pirates.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> I fail to see what your showing me, i know how much games cost to make and guess what? They waste a shit ton on needless marketing, congrats on spending what was it? like 500 million on marketing MW2?...like every single person on the planet didn't know the game already existed and when it was coming out...but that was money well spent right?   Rockstar is another culprit in needless spending



you don't live in the real world. not everyone spends their days surfing gaming sites and playing video games. i can guarantee you a very large portion of those sales came from casual gamers who had to see an ad first.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> maybe cause the pirates are not the ones directly infecting my pc with needless drms?  Lets see, game is release with drm, pirate never even sees drm...i get plagued with it.  About the only thing i hate pirates for is the fact that their end product is better then the one i just paid $60 for



 the pirates are the reason these kinds of drm exist in the first place. remove all the pirates and you remove all the drm controls. or maybe developers should stop making games for the pc. will that make you happy?


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And the only reason DRM exists is because of pirates so your argument is null. I won't buy something because of DRM but I understand why publishers are going this route.



Piracy has been around before DRM. DRM exists as a way to shut shareholders up and keep them happy. 



TheMailMan78 said:


> Do you think they care what we think? Really? If that were the case they would just cease to make games for the PC. They don't need vast conspiracies.



If game companies don't care about us the consumer then they should pay the price. 



Easy Rhino said:


> well as usual people are upset at the publishers and not at the pirates. why do the pirates always get a free pass?



I get upset at the idiocy of the publishers. They surely know that their undefeatable DRM gets cracked within a day maybe 2 and the people who pirate it wont buy it anyway even if had no DRM and was 0.10 cents.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 2, 2010)

I give up, keep on riding the "publishers are only trying to protect themselves while they shit all of the consumer" line all you want, I dont buy games with active intrusive drms and i never will, end of story.  If every publisher switches over to this i'll find something else to do with my spare time.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Actually it feels like these companies are exagerrating their loses to piracy to kill of pc gaming because it isn't as profitable as consoles.



Good point. Piracy is not that common really. I buy plenty on steam. Technically that is internet based DRM. 

Mailman, you hate the pirates for the greed of corporations. The pirates are the type to not buy the game if they cannot pirate it. You are metaphorically getting spanked by daddy for no mistake of your own yet you blame the guy that pissed off daddy at work and made him lash out taking it out on you. Blame the daddy for not growing up and realizing he is spanking his children for no good reason. Do you understand what I am saying about misdirected hate?


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Piracy has been around before DRM. DRM exists as a way to shut shareholders up and keep them happy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you're right. they should not even attempt to protect their property. might as well let everyone who wants to play it for free...



Phxprovost said:


> I give up, keep on riding the "publishers are only trying to protect themselves while they shit all of the consumer" line all you want, I dont buy games with active intrusive drms and i never will, end of story.  If every publisher switches over to this i'll find something else to do with my spare time.



you have every right to abstain from buying from publishers whom you do not agree with. and the publishers have every right to enforce whatever drm controls they want. time will tell how it plays out.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Piracy has been around before DRM. DRM exists as a way to shut shareholders up and keep them happy.
> 
> If game companies don't care about us the consumer then they should pay the price.
> 
> I get upset at the idiocy of the publishers. They surely know that their undefeatable DRM gets cracked within a day maybe 2 and the people who pirate it wont buy it anyway even if had no DRM and was 0.10 cents.


 And what price is that? Theft? That makes you no better than them. However is you belive it or not every time you steal a game you are in fact hurting yourself and others.



Phxprovost said:


> I give up, keep on riding the "publishers are only trying to protect themselves while they shit all of the consumer" line all you want, I dont buy games with active intrusive drms and i never will, end of story.  If every publisher switches over to this i'll find something else to do with my spare time.


 And you know what? As long as you don't steal I can respect that position. 



DaedalusHelios said:


> Good point. Piracy is not that common really. I buy plenty on steam. Technically that is internet based DRM.
> 
> Mailman, you hate the pirates for the greed of corporations. The pirates are the type to not buy the game if they cannot pirate it. You are metaphorically getting spanked by daddy for no mistake of your own yet you blame the guy that pissed off daddy at work and made him lash out taking it out on you. Blame the daddy for not growing up and realizing he is spanking his children for no good reason. Do you understand what I am saying about misdirected hate?



Greed? ITS THEIR RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR PROPERTY! You have a choice to buy it or not buy it. But what they want to charge gives you no right to steal. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING BUT AIR.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Good point. Piracy is not that common really. I buy plenty on steam. Technically that is internet based DRM.



you are right. my house only gets broken into once a month so i shouldnt really care about it. i will start caring when it happens every week. 



> Mailman, you hate the pirates for the greed of corporations. The pirates are the type to not buy the game if they cannot pirate it. You are metaphorically getting spanked by daddy for no mistake of your own yet you blame the guy that pissed off daddy at work and made him lash out taking it out on you. Blame the daddy for not growing up and realizing he is spanking his children for no good reason. Do you understand what I am saying about misdirected hate?



you think it is greedy to protect what you own?


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And what price is that? Theft? That makes you no better than them. However is you belive it or not every time you steal a game you are in fact hurting yourself and others.



Price being reduced sales. A tarnished reputation for not caring about the end user. Btw an opinion does make me as bad as a theif.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Price being reduced sales. A tarnished reputation for not caring about the end user. Btw an opinion does make me as bad as a theif.



Sorry Pepper I took it out of context. I thought you were saying they deserved to be stolen from. Reduced sales and such I agree with you on.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Sorry Pepper I took it out of context. I thought you were saying they deserved to be stolen from. Reduced sales and such I agree with you on.



It's fine. Take for example you buy a car (yes another car metaphor god) and they have a basic DRM of sorts being a lock and alarm but car jacking has become rampant. Thiefs are getting away with free cars etc. So the manufacturers require you to call once an hour to assure them that the car hasn't been stolen. Not the best metaphor but the message is there. They are punishing the wrong people while the targets are not affected at all.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> It's fine. Take for example you buy a car (yes another car metaphor god) and they have a basic DRM of sorts being a lock and alarm but car jacking has become rampant. Thiefs are getting away with free cars etc. So the manufacturers require you to call once an hour to assure them that the car hasn't been stolen. Not the best metaphor but the message is there. They are punishing the wrong people while the targets are not affected at all.



And I wouldn't buy the car. Stealing it would never cross my mind.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> you are right. my house only gets broken into once a month so i shouldnt really care about it. i will start caring when it happens every week.
> 
> 
> 
> you think it is greedy to protect what you own?



LOL You think low percentage piracy effects corporations like their own house getting broken into? Thank god I didn't drink that cool aid. 

It is not greedy to protect what you own. But punishments for pirating are rediculously high. If I have an item worth $50 you steal from me do I get to send you to jail for up to 10 years with a $100,000 fine? Nope, but with intellectual property law the wealthy can. 

The moment protections can make it so a purchaser cannot use a product they better accept the return for free and warn of the intrusive DRM at the point of sale. Something they would never warn of to individual customers because that could decrease sales.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And I wouldn't buy the car. Stealing it would never cross my mind.



Indeed that's what I wish the market would do. That manufacturer would be forced to remove such issues and address the problem, the theives.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> LOL You think low percentage piracy effects corporations like their own house getting broken into? Thank god I didn't drink that cool aid.
> 
> It is not greedy to protect what you own. But punishments for pirating are rediculously high. If I have an item worth $50 you steal from me do I get to send you to jail for up to 10 years with a $100,000 fine? Nope, but with intellectual property law the wealthy can.
> 
> The moment protections can make it so a purchaser cannot use a product they better accept the return for free and warn of the intrusive DRM at the point of sale. Something they would never warn of to individual customers because that could decrease sales.



Yes. Stealing is illegal and the fine you are referring to is only in extreme cases. Thats the MAX penalty and I think it needs to be enforced more. If it was we would have WAY less pirating. Also DRM is on the box. Don't blame the publisher because you didn't read.



DrPepper said:


> Indeed that's what I wish the market would do. That manufacturer would be forced to remove such issues and address the problem, the theives.



Thats simple. Stop making games. Thats the only way to stop pirates. No I rather deal with DRMs then never game again.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> LOL You think low percentage piracy effects corporations like their own house getting broken into? Thank god I didn't drink that cool aid.



stealing is stealing. stop rationalizing it. 



> It is not greedy to protect what you own. But punishments for pirating are rediculously high. If I have an item worth $50 you steal from me do I get to send you to jail for up to 10 years with a $100,000 fine? Nope, but with intellectual property law the wealthy can.



agreed. but that is a problem with the law, not with publishers including DRM.



> The moment protections can make it so a purchaser cannot use a product they better accept the return for free and warn of the intrusive DRM at the point of sale. Something they would never warn of to individual customers because that could decrease sales.



when you buy a game you agree to the terms of use. you can easily find these terms in the packaging of the game or in an online ToS if you buy it digitally. so essentially when you buy it and install you are knowingly and willing subjecting yourself to the DRM controls. it is up to you the consumer to do your homework on that.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Thats simple. Stop making games. Thats the only way to stop pirates. No I rather deal with DRMs then never game again.



Not an option. Only viable option is to cut off the source of distribution.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Not an option. Only viable option is to cut off the source of distribution.



Internet? Good luck on that.


----------



## niko084 (Jun 2, 2010)

How about we all wake up and simply boycott ANYTHING that has DRM, simple either close your business or deal.

We wouldn't have to deal with half this crap we deal with.

Boycott doesn't mean jack to people these days, they just bend on over and take it.
So let it continue until these companies make you pay by the hour to play the game, because they can and they will and people will pay.

Run lemmings run!

****
On another note, who wants to start a game development company and market on the simple fact you DON'T use DRM, I'll bet it would work


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Internet? Good luck on that.



Internet is based on servers. TPB, Demonoid etc. If they're taken out then piracy will drop to acceptable levels.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

in the end it is up to the consumer to decide what drm or piracy controls they feel are acceptable. only buy from publishers whom you agree with. it is really that simple. the more consumers boycott these types of controls the more the publishers will have to find a better way. but don't go giving the pirates a pass. they are the reason these controls exist.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Internet is based on servers. TPB, Demonoid etc. If they're taken out then piracy will drop to acceptable levels.



wait. you already said pirates will find a way around cracking DRM. you dont think they will find a new way to distribute their pirated goods?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Internet is based on servers. TPB, Demonoid etc. If they're taken out then piracy will drop to acceptable levels.



Nations pick and choose what virtues they wish to follow under the guise of "civil rights" or the such. Shutting down torrents and such makes sense but it will NEVER happen.



Easy Rhino said:


> wait. you already said pirates will find a way around cracking DRM. you dont think they will find a new way to distribute their pirated goods?



He just thinks it will reduce their capacity. Not stop them.


----------



## niko084 (Jun 2, 2010)

Where you make better security, you will make a better criminal.

It's the same antic as idiot proofing... A better idiot will come to life.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> wait. you already said pirates will find a way around cracking DRM. you dont think they will find a new way to distribute their pirated goods?



Better than investing money in DRM which is essentially twiddling thumbs.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Nations pick and choose what virtues they wish to follow under the guise of "civil rights" or the such. Shutting down torrents and such makes sense but it will NEVER happen.



ISP's have began blocking such sites.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> copyright laws exist to protect companies from thieves. it grants the govt legal authority to levy fines and possibly jail time to those who infringe upon it.


I wish they would fight their battles in the courtroom instead on my hard drive.
I can't stand this kind of draconian DRM but neither will I resort to pirating to spite them for it.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yes. Stealing is illegal and the fine you are referring to is only in extreme cases. Thats the MAX penalty and I think it needs to be enforced more. If it was we would have WAY less pirating. Also DRM is on the box. Don't blame the publisher because you didn't read.



Not in extreme cases, the maximum penalty is always pursued by the prosecution. When you say steal I encourage you to look back at the cassette tape days. They used to play full albums over the radio for people to hear and they knew some people where recording it for home use. Did they ever think to prosecute? Nope. Have the music industries made progress through prosecuting those who pirate music? Nope, in fact the thing that makes their sales better is through selling a more convenient way to their customers like itunes and other services. *Innovate your marketing and not your protection.* Ever since Steam started nobody really pirates Valve titles like L4D, L4D2 Team Fortress since the prices are fair and it is convenient. Convenience and fair prices defeat piracy every single time. Some corporations are just out of touch with how to do business in the modern age of digital distribution.


----------



## MilkyWay (Jun 2, 2010)

Piracy has always existed, people used to copy; floppies, tapes, CDs, video tapes, pirate DVDs; i think that DrPeppers argument that pirates will and still do pirate regardless is actually pretty accurate.

Pirates didn't cause DRM, companies and the availability of the internet did, DRM wasn't even as prevalent as before but piracy existed then.

I dont like DRM all it does it force people to use cracks and look to piracy as an alternative. Always on DRM does a pretty good job of stopping piracy for a while but even that can be overcome, it annoys the user even more because they have to be online all the time and register. Steam at least has a offline mode and its just activating a product code on that, downside is the game is forever linked to your account so no trading or such.

Command and conquer 4 uses "Always On" DRM and so does Settlers, thats 2 i can think off.

EDIT: Torrents have legal applications, you cant blame torrent sites blame the users, that blaming google for porn lol.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> in the end it is up to the consumer to decide what drm or piracy controls they feel are acceptable. only buy from publishers whom you agree with. it is really that simple. the more consumers boycott these types of controls the more the publishers will have to find a better way. but don't go giving the pirates a pass. they are the reason these controls exist.



You always remind me of Andrew Ryan with such faith in the market and Ayn Rand's philosophy. The market cannot always account for things. Why does the government regulate baseball? Why did they force consumer protections like seat belts to save lives? Why were tonics made illegal to claim that they cured illness? It is because the market cannot be trusted with everything and to self regulate when things run rampant. The government has to step in when people are being abused just like it does when corporations are being abused by pirates. It works both ways. Just because you are a corporation and own something or have tons of revenue doesn't mean you are god and have a right to impose unfair treatment on others. I believe it should be required to warn customers as most games actually are designed to work with all correspionding modern hardware and not requiring a constant internet connection. With digital distribution it makes more logical since because that is where it came from. But if it came from offline it should operate offline without a constant connection required. On time online activation is open to debate IMO as I find it tougher to call. Limited reinstall DRM should be banned as it is planned obsolescence.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Not in extreme cases, the maximum penalty is always pursued by the prosecution. When you say steal I encourage you to look back at the cassette tape days. They used to play full albums over the radio for people to hear and they knew some people where recording it for home use. Did they ever think to prosecute? Nope. Have the music industries made progress through prosecuting those who pirate music? Nope, in fact the thing that makes their sales better is through selling a more convenient way to their customers like itunes and other services. *Innovate your marketing and not your protection.* Ever since Steam started nobody really pirates Valve titles like L4D, L4D2 Team Fortress since the prices are fair and it is convenient. Convenience and fair prices defeat piracy every single time. Some corporations are just out of touch with how to do business in the modern age of digital distribution.



Yeah that worked out real well for MW2. 



DaedalusHelios said:


> You always remind me of Andrew Ryan with such faith in the market and Ayn Rand's philosophy. The market cannot always account for things. Why does the government regulate baseball? Why did they force consumer protections like seat belts to save lives? Why were tonics made illegal to claim that they cured illness? It is because the market cannot be trusted with everything and to self regulate when things run rampant. The government has to step in when people are being abused just like it does when corporations are being abused by pirates. It works both ways. Just because you are a corporation and own something or have tons of revenue doesn't mean you are god and have a right to impose unfair treatment on others. I believe it should be required to warn customers as most games actually are designed to work with all correspionding modern hardware and not requiring a constant internet connection. With digital distribution it makes more logical since because that is where it came from. But if it came from offline it should operate offline without a constant connection required. On time online activation is open to debate IMO as I find it tougher to call. Limited reinstall DRM should be banned as it is planned obsolescence.


 So you think the goverment should control DRM? Please. So now video game companies are the same as snake oil salesmen? Come on man lets be realistic. Video game companies sells digital entertainment and as such the regulation needed should be to that of anti-trust and copyright. The goverment has no right or place in this area other then to enforce standing laws. The market is more than capable to correct anything else.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah that worked out real well for MW2.



With enough marketing hype and paid off reviewers through buying ads on sites you can do amazing things but that is fine. If they pulled off a large marketing campaign and made money then good for them. I didn't say people have to make good games. I just think when there is abuse of the customer, civil rights are violated, or punishments are unfair I think things should be changed.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> With enough marketing hype and paid off reviewers through buying ads on sites you can do amazing things but that is fine. If they pulled off a large marketing campaign and made money then good for them. I didn't say people have to make good games. I just think when there is abuse of the customer, civil rights are violated, or punishments are unfair I think things should be changed.



Civil rights? ITS VIDEO GAMES.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> 1.Yeah that worked out real well for MW2.
> 
> 2. So you think the goverment should control DRM? Please. So now video game companies are the same as snake oil salesmen? Come on man lets be realistic. Video game companies sells digital entertainment and as such the regulation needed should be to that of anti-trust and copyright. The goverment has no right or place in this area other then to enforce standing laws. The market is more than capable to correct anything else.



1. Yes, MW2 used marketing and did well. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you are referring to. Perhaps you should explain yourself?

2. Yes, anything that becomes intrusive in your life and you have no way of defending yourself from the government is open to protect you. Read my full post again please and you might see what I was saying more clearly. There may be some miscommunication going on. When you say Anti-trust and copyright you are speaking of protections of only the corporations. Do you believe to as individuals we deserve no porotection from corporations? That is what you statement implied with your statement.



TheMailMan78 said:


> The market is more than capable to correct anything else.



I am just saying if things go too far we should have the government to protect the rights of the individuals. There is a variety of DRM that limits products to the point of it being unuseable which is false advertising to sell a broken product. Would the market fairy fix it if the place of business requires a restocking fee to accept the product back because you opened it like Best Buy and others?



TheMailMan78 said:


> Civil rights? ITS VIDEO GAMES.



I was speaking in generalities as I refered to government interventions and its uses in a previous post. LEARN TO READ? 

I gotta go now, but fun chatting with everybody.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Civil rights? ITS VIDEO GAMES.



 are you on the payroll of a publisher?  You act like someone who is.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Better than investing money in DRM which is essentially twiddling thumbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ISP's have began blocking such sites.



investing money in DRM is a lot cheaper than filing lawsuits and chasing down spook pirates.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> are you on the payroll of a publisher?  You act like someone who is.



are you a pirate and condone theft? you act like someone who is


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> are you a pirate and condone theft? you act like someone who is



Nope  and for the 10932759032159823659236592365923864th time its not theft, the courts around the world have been convinced its copyright infringement.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> Nope  and for the 10932759032159823659236592365923864th time its not theft, the courts around the world have been convinced its copyright infringement.



that is a legal term for digital theft. if it makes you feel better that you are infringing on somebody's property rather than stealing it you must have some real moral dilemmas on your hands.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> 1. Yes, MW2 used marketing and did well. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you are referring to. Perhaps you should explain yourself?
> 
> 2. Yes, anything that becomes intrusive in your life and you have no way of defending yourself from the government is open to protect you. Read my full post again please and you might see what I was saying more clearly. There may be some miscommunication going on. When you say Anti-trust and copyright you are speaking of protections of only the corporations. Do you believe to as individuals we deserve no porotection from corporations? That is what you statement implied with your statement.


 Anti-trust and copyright are also there to protect the individual. Copyright laws apply to everything I do in my professional life and I am far from a "evil" corporation. Also don't think anti-trust law protect the little guy and only big corporations? Try telling that to the little guys that were against Standard oil. If it wasn't for those laws their would be no fair competition and thus no fair prices for the consumer.



DaedalusHelios said:


> I am just saying if things go too far we should have the government to protect the rights of the individuals. There is a variety of DRM that limits products to the point of it being unuseable which is false advertising to sell a broken product. Would the market fairy fix it if the place of business requires a restocking fee to accept the product back because you opened it like Best Buy and others?


 Games are not a necessity to survive. You won't die if you stop gaming. If you do not agree on the license agreement then do not buy the games. Problem solved. What you fail to understand is you NEVER OWN the game. You buy a licenses to use it how the OWNER of the propriety sees fit. No more. No less. Don't like it? Don't buy it.



Phxprovost said:


> are you on the payroll of a publisher?  You act like someone who is.



No I'm an artist who makes his money via copyrights. Every time someone uses my art without my permission they take food out of my families mouth.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> that is a legal term for digital theft. if it makes you feel better that you are infringing on somebody's property rather than stealing it you must have some real moral dilemmas on your hands.



so its theft in practice but "copyright infringement" when its time for the claims to be filed....

I vote this thread just gets deleted cause this is never going to end and nothing good is going to come out of it...but hey thats just me


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> so its theft in practice but "copyright infringement" when its time for the claims to be filed....



yes. copyright infringement gives the government legal authority to levy fines and jail time if necessary. it means the same thing as stealing it just covers a different medium. 



> I vote this thread just gets deleted cause this is never going to end and nothing good is going to come out of it...but hey thats just me



it is a good discussion going on. if it gets crazy i will close it. so far nobody has called names or trolled which is a new record!


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> yes. copyright infringement gives the government legal authority to levy fines and jail time if necessary. it means the same thing as stealing it just covers a different medium.



ahh but the difference is theft is not that big of a deal, yea you might get a little jail time and maybe a little fine with some community service with probation?  But copyright infringement?? get ready for jail time with utterly massive fines somewhere around maybe literally 5000 times the worth of the product.

You know what i see in that?

You steal from a person,  you get some jail time and a small fine
You steal from a corporation, you get jail time and life ruining fines

....but hey what do i know


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> ahh but the difference is theft is not that big of a deal, yea you might get a little jail time and maybe a little fine with some community service with probation?  But copyright infringement?? get ready for jail time with utterly massive fines somewhere around maybe litterly 5000 times the worth of the product.
> 
> You know what i see in that?
> 
> ...



i agree with you that the rulings have been harsh and a lot of that has to do with judges who are not tech savvy. that will change over time. but the point remains that both are morally considered theft.


----------



## hellrazor (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Also DRM is on the box.



Dude, you just gave me an idea.

Say publishers distributed a cheap hardware thingy (possibly containing a serial number) that connected to the computer, and the game would only run if it was connected?

I mean the idea's not fully developed or anything and most good pirates are also good with electronics and whatnot, and simply removing whatever checks to see if it's connected wouldn't be too hard for a good hacker, but it could work. No internet required, no excruciatingly slow calls through the internet slowing down your computer, all is slightly better.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

hellrazor said:


> Dude, you just gave me an idea.
> 
> Say publishers distributed a cheap hardware thingy (possibly containing a serial number) that connected to the computer, and the game would only run if it was connected?
> 
> I mean the idea's not fully developed or anything and most good pirates are also good with electronics and whatnot, and simply removing whatever checks to see if it's connected wouldn't be too hard for a good hacker, but it could work. No internet required, no excruciatingly slow calls through the internet slowing down your computer, all is slightly better.



Its called a dongle and its been around for years.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

hellrazor said:


> Dude, you just gave me an idea.
> 
> Say publishers distributed a cheap hardware thingy (possibly containing a serial number) that connected to the computer, and the game would only run if it was connected?
> 
> I mean the idea's not fully developed or anything and most good pirates are also good with electronics and whatnot, and simply removing whatever checks to see if it's connected wouldn't be too hard for a good hacker, but it could work. No internet required, no excruciatingly slow calls through the internet slowing down your computer, all is slightly better.



it is called a dongle.


----------



## hellrazor (Jun 2, 2010)

Whatever happened to them?


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 2, 2010)

hellrazor said:


> Whatever happened to them?



you will see them from time to time on really high end video editing suites and CAD suites. i dont know if it is practical to use just for games.


----------



## Phxprovost (Jun 2, 2010)

Alright im no software engineer or hardware engineer but...

Couldn't game publishers work with hardware fabs to create a chip based hyper-visor that only allow full 3d acceleration with authentic, signed, checksummed code?

That way i dont have to worry about bullshit drm and if you buy your games and programs...you have nothing to worry about?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> Alright im no software engineer or hardware engineer but...
> 
> Couldn't game publishers work with hardware fabs to create a chip based hyper-visor that only allow full 3d acceleration with authentic, signed, checksummed code?
> 
> That way i dont have to worry about bullshit drm and if you buy your games and programs...you have nothing to worry about?



Yeah that will take hackers 48 hours to crack instead of 24.


----------



## hellrazor (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> you will see them from time to time on really high end video editing suites and CAD suites. i dont know if it is practical to use just for games.



Well I guess keeping track of them would be worse than keeping track of CDs/DVDs, but still.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Thanks newtekie for being the boogie man all publishers fear. You know the one that makes us paying customers suffer for your cheapness and disrespect. :shadedshu



It has nothing to do with cheapness or any amount of respect.

I have spent thousands on PC games in my lifetime, from good games to shit games, I've bought them all.

Now, I pirate everything, if it is good, I'll buy it when it goes on sale. I will not pay more then $40 for a game, no game is worth that.

Game publishers continue to push out shit games, that are usually bug filled and require patches to run properly, _if_ they even decide to patch the game, forcing paying customers to be their beta testers, and have pushed the level of gameplay way down, both in quality and playtime.

The idea that the pirates are the cause of DRM is flawed.  The publishers are the reason DRM exist.  They give BS reasoning that every pirated game would be a sale, which we all know isn't true, since 90% of pirates would not buy the game if they had to, so their claim that every pirated copy would have been a sale is total crap.  Yet they use it all the time.

On top of that the publishers spend more time on DRM, and less time on actually making sure the game runs properly.

Just to give you some examples of how I, a paying customer, have been screwed, and what drove me to now pirate almost every game:

Prototype - Paid full price, a known flaw in the game causes it to play fine for about 2 minutes, then the framerate drop to 10FPS or less.  The only way I can play the game is to disable every HID device possible, so I can't use my G15 LCD, my G7's resolution switching or extra buttons, and my battery backup gets disabled.  There hasn't been even a peep from the developer or publisher about a patch, in fact the site for the game isn't updated, ever.

Doom 3 - Paid full price the day the game come out, and it sucked.  You can't hold a flash light and a gun at the same time.  Are you serious?


Just Cause 2 - Paid full price the day the game came out. I get random settlements that just aren't there.  Visually they are, but my character just walks right through them.  I have to resort to work arounds to fix this.  Oh, and the story lasted a whole 4 hours of play time...yes I beat the sotry part of the game in 4 hours!  That is pathetic.

Those are just three games off the top of my head that I've paid for and been ripped off by the publisher/developer.

And it is now a trend for publishers to pretty much completely drop the game, and ignore it completely, once it has been released.  Virtually no game is patched anymore, it is just released, then the publisher/developer moves on to the next piece of shit.  Want a prime example of this?  Look at Metro2033, the game was released over 2 months ago, and the publisher hasn't even cared enough to updated the site to no longer say "Pre-Order Now".  Thats right, the site hasn't even acknowledge the game was release...yeah that developer really deserves my money...

Sorry, developers and publishers have gotten totally lazy, and then they wonder why we don't want to pay their inflated prices...:shadedshu


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

another one? ok - 

we all know that drm came about because of piracy. *no argument there.* 
pirates want to play games that they don't want to pay for - is it because they don't want to or can't? *doesn't matter. k*.
companies see people playing their game for free and feel a need to protect it.  ok. makes sense.  *I think most of us are on the same page here*.

so a company then puts drm on their game. to try and delay a pirate release for a day or two at most.  to stop those purchasers that actually would have bought the game had it not been so easily available for free. ok.  *so if that's the case why not disable drm* 72 hours *after the game is released worldwide?* it's served it's supposed function?make it a week. 2.  a month... 2.  no.  if it happens, it's a decade later.  and us, the people who actually paid for the game deal with it the whole time.

obviously pirates are the root cause of the problem.  but you guys act as though just because they make us video games they are gentle good entities...  NO! they are bloodsucking corporations out to make all the money they can. and that's fine, in theory.  but when is enough enough?  *when does it become worthwhile to do some valid, unbiased statistics gathering and find out how big the problem actually is?* what we do instead is just take these corporations word for it.  they feel they are not making enough money and so we know where they place the blame.  but HOW valid is that blame?

*what percentage of people who WOULD have bought the game, who did not buy it and instead pirated it - do you see as a valid amount for companies to take the drastic measures they do?* 1%? 10%? less? more?   what percentage of lost customers do you think there actually are?

when does it go from a company just doing what is within their rights to protect their property -  to a corporation unjustly infesting the machines of all of it's customers to squeeze out that last percentage of profit?  at some point enough is enough.  *there is loss and waste in every industry - you can only inconvenience your customers so much in trying to minimize that!*

I do not disagree with the problem or the cause - I just do not see how anyone can defend the lengths these companies are taking to battle that.

If it were possible to find out - i'd wager, that the average company spends more money and drm than ACTUAL LOST PROFITS from it.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> It has nothing to do with cheapness or any amount of respect.
> 
> I have spent thousands on PC games in my lifetime, from good games to shit games, I've bought them all.
> 
> ...


And then theres MW2 They want you to pay for a new map pack but yet they can't fix the obvious problem with the game....and why not..Oh yeah because they fired everyone that was involved in making it...And yet they want you to buy an ADD-ON WTF..

I didn't pay for it I got free with a purchase and I still feel ripped off.....

Then there is VAC...REALLY? so after some hack ruins your game play they will then be banned in a few weeks....OK 

and your lucky to play below 100ping Oh yay!!


----------



## zithe (Jun 2, 2010)

Developing games is an art form/ science. People put hard work into these games, even if they seem to have been shoved out.

Taking the copyright infringement thing and that idea that if it's not worth 40 bucks, I'll steal it. Now say there was a pile of 1000 mona lisa prints. You've seen this picture a million times and loads have tried to copy it. I'll steal a couple copies. This makes me a douchebag. Why? Because I just admitted that it's crap, I said it wasn't worth the money, yet I spent my time taking it anyways, and it's more difficult for another person to enjoy a copy now.

People who pirate games tend to have a shitload of games. Why not sell the old games that you don't play and buy the new one? Just makes you look like an asshat.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

zithe said:
			
		

> Now say there was a pile of 1000 mona lisa prints. You've seen this picture a million times and loads have tried to copy it. I'll steal a couple copies. This makes me a douchebag. Why? Because I just admitted that it's crap, I said it wasn't worth the money, yet I spent my time taking it anyways, and it's more difficult for another person to enjoy a copy now.



that's a finite number, doesn't fit.  the only way it would hurt others' enjoyment is if the artist started putting some kind of blocking paint over it that makes it so you can only look at it if you wear a pair of REALLY uncomfortable glasses.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 2, 2010)

Great, more games I can't buy. I don't know how they expect to stay in business if they keep this up.


You know how pissed I'd get if a severe thunder storm comes through and I lose power but can't save because I lost my Internet connection half an hour ago?  That happened yesterday (was playing Alpha Protocol).  In my book, all games that require an "always on" internet connection are unplayable.  I have yet to buy one and never will.




digibucc said:


> *what percentage of people who WOULD have bought the game, who did not buy it and instead pirated it - do you see as a valid amount for companies to take the drastic measures they do?* 1%? 10%? less? more?   what percentage of lost customers do you think there actually are?


There's only one way to find out: try a DRM free release...which they won't do because they are paranoid.


----------



## wahdangun (Jun 2, 2010)

yeah i think DRM is really the only solution for publisher.

do you know that sega FM 2008 have hook in them(to track pirated copy) and the game don't have some sort of copy protection, and do you know what that only 30% who buy and play legit copy of it.


and another example was DemiGod,it was great game from great publisher , and every game they release never have any short of DRM and you know what, in the launch day their server was hit by enourmus pirated copy and make the server crash and laggy 


so i think DRM was important but i hope it not become very intrusive, and if you think the game was crap, don't ever buy it


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 2, 2010)

DRM is important when dealing with servers (multiplayer), as is anti-cheat/hack.  DRM is not important for single player games or the single player component of a multiplayer game.  The publisher/developer loses nothing from that form of pirating.  It costs them nothing and they may make a few sales if the pirates believe the game is worth it.


There obviously is a market there, but they have alienated it and/or using the wrong sales model to encourage them to buy.


----------



## entropy13 (Jun 2, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> yeah i think DRM is really the only solution for publisher.
> 
> do you know that sega FM 2008 have hook in them(to track pirated copy) and the game don't have some sort of copy protection, and do you know what that only 30% who buy and play legit copy of it.
> 
> ...



LOL and there never was any FM game sold here, until more than a year has passed. FM 2009 was a "new arrival" when 2010 was about to be launched. And e-tailers are out of the picture since I pay with cash.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 2, 2010)

The Always ON DRM rocks  It pushes me further and further away from paying the full amount and buying their games  LOL


----------



## Hockster (Jun 2, 2010)




----------



## wahdangun (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> It has nothing to do with cheapness or any amount of respect.
> 
> I have spent thousands on PC games in my lifetime, from good games to shit games, I've bought them all.
> 
> ...




hey no one force you to buy the game, if you think game was suck don't buy it and don't pirate it, 

game is work of art you know, so people have different taste and maybe your taste is different from what game studio want.

a


----------



## Steevo (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> wait. you already said pirates will find a way around cracking DRM. you dont think they will find a new way to distribute their pirated goods?



shared encrypted FTP, a bunch of them got together and made P2P. I was doing it, but stopped as the want for a real game got me.


However I will not buy TDU2, I still have a few frustrating hours of playtime on TDU that I paid full retail price for, it needed patches, and never really got one, I got banned for discussing a class action lawsuit to force a fix or my money back, and not just some of it.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 2, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Anti-trust and copyright are also there to protect the individual. Copyright laws apply to everything I do in my professional life and I am far from a "evil" corporation. Also don't think anti-trust law protect the little guy and only big corporations? Try telling that to the little guys that were against Standard oil. If it wasn't for those laws their would be no fair competition and thus no fair prices for the consumer.



Anti-trust is good but it doesn't do the job it needs to 99% of the time as it has to be horrible before they do anything and it has nothing to do with DRM. Oil companies get together and decide in collusion what the price will be like OPEC. Also technically commodity traders too. #2 on the the fortune 500 is Exxon which payed no US federal income taxes last year. Tell me they don't call the shots. 



TheMailMan78 said:


> Games are not a necessity to survive. You won't die if you stop gaming. If you do not agree on the license agreement then do not buy the games. Problem solved. What you fail to understand is you NEVER OWN the game. You buy a licenses to use it how the OWNER of the propriety sees fit. No more. No less. Don't like it? Don't buy it.



Yes but stipulations must be discussed or explained before the purchase or it is a bad business practice. Most wouldn't know and lets all agree we don't read 100% of the writing on everything we buy. If you do you are OCD and that doesn't need to be considered as it is a mental disorder beyond the scope of this discussion. 



TheMailMan78 said:


> No I'm an artist who makes his money via copyrights. Every time someone uses my art without my permission they take food out of my families mouth.



Is the food slightly chewed or already being ingested? j/k

We are not saying copyrights shouldn't be protected. But if the art you sell needs an internet connection to be viewed at any time you would have to tell the buyer before the purchase because it isn't common place for that restriction yet(same goes for video games).


----------



## RejZoR (Jun 2, 2010)

Good. Less games to buy then. I gave up on activation DRM and bought few games anyway.
I'm not gonna do that with this shit. Never. I'd rather stop playing games or play old ones forever than support this nonsense.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 2, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> I'd rather stop playing games or play old ones forever than support this nonsense.



I'd rather crack the games and play it without paying a cent. In that way your supporting against that nonsense.


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2010)

Its a viscous cycle: games get DRM, DRM is annoying, we pirate. Publishers get annoyed, puts more tough DRM which annoys legit buyers more, pushing more to piracy. Rinse and repeat. 

The Always On DRM is pretty bad, what will those people without permanent internet do? What will people who have unstable internet do? Pirate the game of course!

Farmville is such a hit


----------



## caleb (Jun 2, 2010)

Whats the big deal with having an internet connection and an online key server to play the game ? 
This works for online shooter games like a charm.
As for other game types look at Blizzard which somehow manages to integrate its antipiracy into their games very succesfully. No private wow server can even try to compare to an official one. I think its brilliant what they have done. Each bug in a crack ( in wow case a server emulator) throws the whole gameplay out of balance when a single ingame feature doesnt work. Hence its not much fun to play on a private server.

I think its time to say that developers must forget about games without online content if they want to fight with piracy.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> it is a good discussion going on. if it gets crazy i will close it. so far nobody has called names or trolled which is a new record!



Your a poo face. Okay TPU record brokens


----------



## entropy13 (Jun 2, 2010)

caleb said:


> Whats the big deal with having an internet connection and an online key server to play the game ?
> This works for online shooter games like a charm.
> As for other game types look at Blizzard which somehow manages to integrate its antipiracy into their games very succesfully. No private wow server can even try to compare to an official one. I think its brilliant what they have done. Each bug in a crack ( in wow case a server emulator) throws the whole gameplay out of balance when a single ingame feature doesnt work. Hence its not much fun to play on a private server.
> 
> I think its time to say that developers must forget about games without online content if they want to fight with piracy.



Still quite fun to play on a private server, especially when you choose the right one.


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2010)

caleb said:


> Whats the big deal with having an internet connection and an online key server to play the game ?
> This works for online shooter games like a charm..



Not everyone in the world have internet access all the time you know. And if you play through online, your ping gets to ~100ms. In LAN, ping averages lower than 20ms.


----------



## 1Kurgan1 (Jun 2, 2010)

3 pages in 1 day, don't really want to read this all, lol. Either way, I'm not quite sure what the point of this is, especially with console security compromised on everything but the PS3 long ago. What the heck are they going to do about that? And those pirated games can even be played online since they don't have thing to identify that each one is unique.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

and then comes the classic question... if piracy is the reason for crazy prices and the lengths publishers go to to make money - why is the ps3 treated by them just like every other console?  

*the fact that the ps3 is impossible to pirate should mean that we see lower prices for their games- if the prices were really dependent on piracy.  but as you can see they are not.  corporations will do everything they can to squeeze every last penny out of us - whether they have a justifiable reason to or not.*

there is no possible way that high prices, "skate online accounts" and paid "cerberus network accounts" have anything to do with piracy.  companies may feel they are losing money on secondhand games - but even if that is a valid concern , they do not have the right to jack up prices.

they may have the ability - and it may be their decision , but it is in no way "right"  and I cannot fathom how anyone could defend these people.
*i wish there were a way to tell for sure* - as I would bet substantially that piracy barely affects a companies bottom line.  the majority of people who WOULD have bought a game will end up buying it anyway.

heck - after I finally got a good job , I went back and bought a crapload of PC, & console games that I had previously pirated.  I enjoyed them for a time and even though I will most likely never play them again I wanted to pay for the enjoyment I did get.  now granted not every "reformed" pirate will do that.  but the fact of the matter is th4ese companies got hundreds of dollars from me that they never would have gotten otherwise - because of piracy.  If i did not play the game a fair amount and feel bad about playing it for free , i never would have came back years later and paid for a game with crappy graphics compared to current gen.  it would have been one more game i never got a chance to play.  but instead I played it, even though i couldn't afford it (food was more important at the time) and then i paid for it afterward.

*I think my point is there is a lot of gray area, there are a lot of variables.  there are a lot of very specific, very important pieces of information that are impossible for us to know.  so in recognizing that, taking any kind of a hard stance is ridiculous.  yes pirates are bad - but what the companies are doing is bad too!  so because there are people out there that pirate - you defend and think it is ok for corporations o go as far as they do? that's insanity!  just because there is a cause doesn't mean the effect is justified.*


----------



## niko084 (Jun 2, 2010)

Phxprovost said:


> so its theft in practice but "copyright infringement" when its time for the claims to be filed....
> 
> I vote this thread just gets deleted cause this is never going to end and nothing good is going to come out of it...but hey thats just me



The law on theft specifies "physical tangible property" in many areas.
Therefore they required a new law.

Does it really matter what they call it?
Does it matter if blue was called green instead?

You are nit picking a entirely useless point.

I can't personally say that activation bothers me, limited installs... Wont buy it, always on, wont buy it.. Bluray, wont buy it.

Pick your battles and draw your lines.


----------



## Gzero (Jun 2, 2010)

digibucc said:


> and then comes the classic question... if piracy is the reason for crazy prices and the lengths publishers go to to make money - why is the ps3 treated by them just like every other console?
> 
> *the fact that the ps3 is impossible to pirate should mean that we see lower prices for their games- if the prices were really dependent on piracy.  but as you can see they are not.  corporations will do everything they can to squeeze every last penny out of us - whether they have a justifiable reason to or not.*
> 
> ...





I like how the others will ignore the goods points you have made.

For those that don't get it:

Publisher  Consumer + Developers.

I did buy World of Goo and gave money to charity during that special indie promotion (the majority though went to the devs).


----------



## wahdangun (Jun 2, 2010)

digibucc said:


> and then comes the classic question... if piracy is the reason for crazy prices and the lengths publishers go to to make money - why is the ps3 treated by them just like every other console?
> 
> *the fact that the ps3 is impossible to pirate should mean that we see lower prices for their games- if the prices were really dependent on piracy.  but as you can see they are not.  corporations will do everything they can to squeeze every last penny out of us - whether they have a justifiable reason to or not.*
> 
> ...



hey i never support this kind of DRM, but i just saying that pirate was one of the real problem we have, maybe its because we have too much bandwith in our hand and it encourage people to easy pirate. just look at stardock they commitment not to use any short of DRM in their game, and  you know what only 30 % use legit copy, im feel sorry of them. 

and btw the game price it's not because of piracy but because off fee, you must know that if developer want to build a console game they must pay some short of royalty to console maker, and thats why us PC gamer usually have lower price and on top of that PS3 blue-ray media have higher price than standard dvd and because of the burner/reader was also expensive its not economical for pirate to pirate PS3 games and thats the only reason and not just because its impossible because there are no damm thing that can't be crack-able


edit: btw if majority of people like you  it will be wonderfull world but its not the case here, people want free stuff if they can get it(without getting busted).


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> do you know what that only 30% who buy and play legit copy of it.





wahdangun said:


> h just look at stardock they commitment not to use any short of DRM in their game, and  you know what only 30 % use legit copy, im feel sorry of them.



There is absolutely no proof for those claims.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> hey i never support this kind of DRM, but i just saying that pirate was one of the real problem we have, maybe its because we have too much bandwith in our hand and it encourage people to easy pirate. just look at stardock they commitment not to use any short of DRM in their game, and  you know what only 30 % use legit copy, im feel sorry of them.


 me too - that's why gal civ 1 & 2 and sins , as well as object desktop were all products i purchased after i had gotten my use out of pirated versions YEARS AGO.  I finally got a job and made money - and paid for them even though i have never played the game once (since purchase) - and haven't used object desktop in months...



wahdangun said:


> and btw the game price it's not because of piracy


 that's my point. 





wahdangun said:


> but because off fee, you must know that if developer want to build a console game they must pay some short of royalty to console maker, and thats why us PC gamer usually have lower price


 except with PS3 sony funds 95% of the games themselves, as well as owning the proprietary blu-ray technology the discs are used for!  do you think sony charges their studios retail or even stock cost on those? of course not!  Sony's setup with the PS3 is different from any other console in that they have a lock on everything in their market.  they make all that $$$ from everything else - with a small loss on hardware.  with 360 you'd be right , but PS3 is different.  that's why it is a perfect example.  



wahdangun said:


> and on top of that PS3 blue-ray media have higher price than standard dvd and because of the burner/reader was also expensive its not economical for pirate to pirate PS3 games and thats the only reason and not just because its imposible because there are no damm thing that can't be crack-able


 well yes that would also be a hurdle to get over - but *A)* they have to crack it first! it's been years and no one is close! of course it's not "uncrackable" but the resources necessary and the outcome achieved make it NOT WORTH IT! and *B)* either way it still has NO PIRACY!  if piracy really affected sales the way these companies claim they do we should see a difference with the PS3!


----------



## douglatins (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> If it has DRM, I'll pirate it.  If it doesn't have DRM, I'll pirate it the day it is released.



He is saying what happens sometimes... But if a DRM that cripples original buyers and only makes pirates wait a while to play it... i say its a losing game

LOL i see 2 house lovers here


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 2, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> hey no one force you to buy the game, if you think game was suck don't buy it and don't pirate it,
> 
> game is work of art you know, so people have different taste and maybe your taste is different from what game studio want.
> 
> a



Correct, no one is forcing me to buy the game, which is why I choose to pirate it instead.

I see this statement alot, at least twice in this thread so far and I only did a quick skim of it, I think I even skipped an entire page. It doesn't make any sense, and it makes the anti-pirate argument looks stupid.  Here, I'll help your side out a little bit here.

I think the word you are looking for is "play" not "buy".  No one is forcing me to _play_ the game.  See doesn't that make more sense?  If you use "buy", obviously I'm not buying the game, I'm pirating it, so it makes no sense to say no one is forcing me to do something I'm not doing.

Now, lets assume you said "No one is forcing you to play the game."  A far better argument indeed.  You are right, no one is forcing me to play the game.  So, if the game sucks, I don't play it.  Yes, I downloaded it illegally.  But if I download it illegally, play it for an hour and realize it sucks, uninstall it, and delete the downloaded content, is it still piracy?

Yes, to the game publishers and developers it certainly is!  Why?  Becuase they didn't make any money off me.  See if I didn't pirate the game, I would have had to actually buy it to try it.  Then when I find out it sucks, and I just wasted my $60, I can't even take the game back because the Publishes have implemented stupid rules about returning open software, or rather they flat out said you can't.  

I remember before that policy, returning several games within the 14 day period for the simple reason that they sucked.  That used to be acceptable, the store would take the game back, and you would get your money back.  And guess what, Publishers actually had to put out games that didn't suck.  Not anymore though, the publishers won't take games back from the stores if they've been openned, so now the consumer is stuck with shit games that they've wasted their money on.  I feel sorry for kids today, I actually really do.  I remember saving and saving, mowing lawns and doing chores for people around the neighborhood when I was 12, so I could go to Software Etc.(yes, I'm dating myself here.) and buy a game.  I also remember getting home and finding out that game sucked, packing it back up, and taking it back.  You can't do that anymore.

Ok, now I know the next argument will be "well they do have demos".  Yes, they do.  But more often then not, the demo is an extremely small section of the game, usually the best part of the game, that doesn't give a real idea of how the real game will be.  And it seems to be even more popular then ever for Publishers and Developers to not release a demo at all.  There are some really great exceptions to this.  Steam free weekends, where they just let you play the game, the complete game, for an entire weekend free.  That is a great idea, and I applaud Steam for implementing it.  However, it is far too rare, and usually not with brand new games.  Now, if game developers and publishers released demos, that were the full game, but time limitted to say 4 hours of gametime before shutting off and requiring purchase, I probably wouldn't pirate a single game.  The 4 hours of play would be more than enough for me to figure out if I liked the game or not, and if I was going to buy it or not.

Oh, and on a different note. I'd like to point out that piracy is not theft.  A handy guide to explain:






Anyone that says piracy if theft should be out in front of their local library with picket signs, because they freely allow people, even aid them in, taking books to the copier and photocopying pages! Hell some librarys even have litte kiosks that you you scan pages directly onto a flash drive!

Anti-pirate people like to make the argument "You wouldn't walk into a store and steal a stick of RAM, but you would steal software."  No you idiots, I wouldn't walk into Target and steal a book, but I would walk into a library and make a photocopy of every page I needed, or even better scan every page of the book onto a flash drive!


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2010)

We need less shitty games in order to get people to buy them. The only good "new" game I have played this year is Demon's Souls. And the no return policy is nonsense, if you don't like your product you should have all the right to return the product citing unfit for "consumption". Someone should slap them with a class action lawsuit for removing that right.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> That used to be acceptable, the store would take the game back, and you would get your money back.  And guess what, Publishers actually had to put out games that didn't suck.  Not anymore though, the publishers won't take games back from the stores if they've been openned, so now the consumer is stuck with shit games that they've wasted their money on.



exactly. 

i don't argue there isn't piracy - i don't argue that companies may lose an amount of money from it (albeit relatively small i believe)

what i say is the companies exaggerate the problem in order to have an excuse to put restrictions on regular free market policy.  they have a created a product that operates under different laws from anything else , and consumers are given the shaft and expected to deal with it.

under the guise of "protecting" these multi-billion dollar entities who continually bring in RECORD PROFITS, they get to lock up the market and squeeze out even more.

just because there is piracy, doesn't mean it is the core source of the problem.  companies over-charge and lock up the market - that's WHY piracy is so prevalent.


----------



## douglatins (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Correct, no one is forcing me to buy the game, which is why I choose to pirate it instead.
> 
> I see this statement alot, at least twice in this thread so far and I only did a quick skim of it, I think I even skipped an entire page. It doesn't make any sense, and it makes the anti-pirate argument looks stupid.  Here, I'll help your side out a little bit here.
> 
> ...



Dude i totally freaking agree with you.

That`s a good statement, not being able to return a game is stupid, they deserve any bad things that come out of it, like more piracy and such, though I would see people renting games for free right?


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 2, 2010)

Games are overpriced, so lets do some math:

A new game costs $50-$60
5770 costs $150.
I can feed my self for a week with $50 (ok fine, not very well, but can be done)
I can get a new mouse/keyboard
I can hire a prostitute for a longer lasting enjoyment

Do I need to say more?


----------



## driver66 (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> .    The 4 hours of play would be more than enough time for me to beat the game.



Fixed for ya


----------



## Suijin (Jun 2, 2010)

I have come to hate DRM.  The biggest point being I don't want to have to carry every DVD/CD of a game with me if I should want to play that one on my laptop, or have an internet connection everywhere.

I don't solve this with pirating, I just don't buy those games.

Stardock has become my new favorite, no DRM.  If nothing else I am rewarding a company who doesn't have their head stuck up their nether regions.  DRM seems to hurt legitamate customers much more than pirates.

A lot of the lost sales of PC games have went to MMOs rather than pirates (I mean pirates weren't likely to buy it anyway).  They don't seem to include MMO subs in the sales of PC games that I have saw.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 2, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I remember before that policy, returning several games within the 14 day period for the simple reason that they sucked.  That used to be acceptable, the store would take the game back, and you would get your money back.  And guess what, Publishers actually had to put out games that didn't suck.  Not anymore though, the publishers won't take games back from the stores if they've been openned, so now the consumer is stuck with shit games that they've wasted their money on.  I feel sorry for kids today, I actually really do.  I remember saving and saving, mowing lawns and doing chores for people around the neighborhood when I was 12, so I could go to Software Etc.(yes, I'm dating myself here.) and buy a game.  I also remember getting home and finding out that game sucked, packing it back up, and taking it back.  You can't do that anymore.


What started the no-returns policy was the introduction of installers requiring serial keys before installing (amplified by the serial key being required, and unique, to play online).  Between about 1997 and 2002, the market migrated from consumer product based (something that sits on the shelf--like a book) to serial key based.  That is, you no longer buy a consumer product, you buy a serial key which entitles you to install and use the software.

Ehm, that little 16-25 digit number is virtually all you own anymore and even that is subject to being revoked.  Basically, you own nothing.  You have no viable product to return, you have no viable product to sell, you have zero rights except to use* the software.

* With a laundry list of limitations.


I'll be honest: I don't want to buy games anymore.  It feels like funding a domestic terror cell.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

driver66 said:


> Fixed for ya



i'm sorry, are you saying four hours of play costing $60 USD is in any way justifiable?


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 2, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> What started the no-returns policy was the introduction of installers requiring serial keys before installing.  Over the past 15 years or so, the market migrated from consumer product based (something that sites on the shelf--like a book) to serial key based.  That is, you no longer buy a consumer product, you by a serial key which entitles you to install and use the software.
> 
> Ehm, that little 16-25 digit number is virtually all you own anymore and even that is subject to being revoked.  Basically, you own nothing.  You have no viable product to return, you have no viable product to sell, you have zero rights except to use* the software.
> 
> ...



Agree'd buying a game somehow instantly means the consumer liked the game.



tigger said:


> Just reinstalled it and got the key is already in use,wtf so i threw the pos in the trash.





tigger said:


> Dont matter now,its in the trash and staying there fecking stupid crap.What a waste of £35.


----------



## lyndonguitar (Jun 2, 2010)

no matter what the DRM is, piracy always wins. Even steam got pirated. with an uber secure(crappy) DRM, you could only delay the piracy.

customers are the ones who are really getting hurt by this DRM crap


----------



## lyndonguitar (Jun 2, 2010)

digibucc said:


> i'm sorry, are you saying four hours of play costing $60 USD is in any way justifiable?



i'd rather watch a movie.

i would pay 60$ for a game that has a great replay value and really worth the money.
Like Oblivion, The Sims 3, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect, Half Life(Mods), Dragon Age and other high rated games out there. 

imagine buying a 60$ game and finishing it in less than 6 hours and has no multiplayer/replayability. :shadedshu

EDIT: oops sorry double post.


----------



## driver66 (Jun 2, 2010)

digibucc said:


> i'm sorry, are you saying four hours of play costing $60 USD is in any way justifiable?



I am saying quite the opposite .............  That really isn't worth the time to download is it?


----------



## lyndonguitar (Jun 2, 2010)

driver66 said:


> I am saying quite the opposite .............  That really isn't worth the time to download is it?



at least its "free" to try it out.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 2, 2010)

It's really pretty simple. If you don't like the DRM, don't buy the game.

Alternatively, buy games from Impulse. No internet connection needed to play them.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 2, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Alternatively, buy games from Impulse. No internet connection needed to play them.


But the same problem: you literally own nothing--even less with digital distribution.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 2, 2010)

True, but at least you get to play with your nothing whenever you want.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 2, 2010)

As always with digital distribution, the ball is in their court.  Their EULAs allow them to disallow you from playing any games for whatever reason they deem suitable.  That's the huge hazard with all digital distribution services and exactly why publishers love it.  It grants them more control than serial keys alone do.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 2, 2010)

truthfully i don't worry about that.

i buy digital for ease - ease of acquisition and to ease my moral conscience.  i do not give anyone my info and never cheat hack or otherwise do anything wrong with my purchases.  if for any reason the company/distributor says that my legally purchased copy is no longer valid, i will sue them.  

i will sue the shit out of them , and then proceed to pirate any game i have previously purchased if that is what becomes required to play it.  i do not care about the law in this regard, i care about right and wrong.  it's very obviously wrong of them to have even put me in that situation.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 2, 2010)

Impulse is different. You do not need an internet connection to play a single player game, only to download, activate and update them.

Updates are not mandatory, either. So if you have the game installed and activated, you can play it forever without a connection to Impulse.

If my craptastic satellite connection is down, I can still play Impulse games without any issues.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 2, 2010)

lyndonrakista said:


> no matter what the DRM is, piracy always wins. Even steam got pirated. with an uber secure(crappy) DRM, you could only delay the piracy.
> 
> customers are the ones who are really getting hurt by this DRM crap



The customer doesn't get hurt my friend. When the DRM strikes, the "customer" tells em to shove it up their fucking asses and downloads the game. 

(Well that's what i did)


----------



## niko084 (Jun 2, 2010)

What I love is how people think they are making a statement by buying the console version!

Guys, do what I did, give up on gaming and buy a motorcycle, besides the motorcycle often leads to an unlimited supply of women.


----------



## Mr McC (Jun 2, 2010)

niko084 said:


> What I love is how people think they are making a statement by buying the console version!
> 
> Guys, do what I did, give up on gaming and buy a motorcycle, besides *the motorcycle often leads to an unlimited supply of women*.



I have clearly been riding in the wrong areas.


----------



## newconroer (Jun 2, 2010)

Plenty fine with me.

I buy my games, and I have no problems. 
And if the authentication server does go down now and again..[in the words of special hipster internet children around the world]  OOH NOEZ!!!!


----------



## caleb (Jun 2, 2010)

Fourstaff said:


> Not everyone in the world have internet access all the time you know. And if you play through online, your ping gets to ~100ms. In LAN, ping averages lower than 20ms.



Not my point that you need a super latency to play just to be able to consantly get information from the game provider. Doesnt mean the gameplay is going to be online. The topic here was DRM and I think we should all agree that quality games SHOULD be payed and it is my idea that the security should be done via online game content modifications.


----------



## Mr McC (Jun 2, 2010)

newconroer said:


> Plenty fine with me.
> 
> I buy my games, and I have no problems.
> And if the authentication server does go down now and again..[in the words of special hipster internet children around the world]  OOH NOEZ!!!!



I just try my best to avoid draconian DRM, insofar as this is possible: it will undoubtedly become increasingly difficult to avoid as more companies adopt these kinds of measures. I think customer complacency and a general willingness to put up with such company practices, albeit unhappily, is detrimental to our collective interests as gamers. I dislike being treated like an idiot, particularly when I am exchanging €50 for the pleasure: if they piss me off too much, I simply take my custom elsewhere.


----------



## ShogoXT (Jun 2, 2010)

I like systems like Impulse and Steam. Always buy my games on them if available. 

I WAS looking forward to games like Assassins creed 2, but I dont buy games that betray PC gaming in more ways than 1. Any game with always on DRM goes on the list, MW2, Supreme Commander 2 (wow sooo disapointed, il just play the original).

You can blame people all you want, but the fact doesnt change: DRM doesnt work on anyone, but the buying customers.


----------



## Mr McC (Jun 2, 2010)

ShogoXT said:


> I like systems like Impulse and Steam. Always buy my games on them if available.
> 
> I WAS looking forward to games like Assassins creed 2, but I dont buy games that betray PC gaming in more ways than 1. Any game with always on DRM goes on the list, MW2, Supreme Commander 2 (wow sooo disapointed, il just play the original).
> 
> You can blame people all you want, but the fact doesnt change: DRM doesnt work on anyone, but the buying customers.



I am learning to live with Steam, it seems like the best of a series of bad options. What I dislike is that it often includes games with third-party DRM, such as Securom, without disclosing this information. I don't know whether responsibility for removing this "extra" DRM lies with the developer or with Valve, but Steam already provides enough protection and customers should, at the very least, be informed that certain Steam releases also include the DRM present on the physical release.


----------



## lyndonguitar (Jun 2, 2010)

digibucc said:


> truthfully i don't worry about that.
> 
> i buy digital for ease - ease of acquisition and to ease my moral conscience.  i do not give anyone my info and never cheat hack or otherwise do anything wrong with my purchases.  if for any reason the company/distributor says that my legally purchased copy is no longer valid, i will sue them.
> 
> i will sue the shit out of them , and then proceed to pirate any game i have previously purchased if that is what becomes required to play it.  i do not care about the law in this regard, i care about right and wrong.  it's very obviously wrong of them to have even put me in that situation.



good answer. hahaha


----------



## crazy pyro (Jun 2, 2010)

Guys, they are going to continue screwing us with DRM, the only way I can see out of this is to give them an idea of how best to go about making DRM. They have plenty of alternatives just they have nothing like the creativity required to come up with a system that solves all of the problems.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 3, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Anti-trust is good but it doesn't do the job it needs to 99% of the time as it has to be horrible before they do anything and it has nothing to do with DRM. Oil companies get together and decide in collusion what the price will be like OPEC. Also technically commodity traders too. #2 on the the fortune 500 is Exxon which payed no US federal income taxes last year. Tell me they don't call the shots. )


 First of all OPEC is a league of nations not corperation. Anti-Trust laws do not apply to nations. Only corporations. Second OPEC lost its teeth when the Saudis bailed on them about a year ago.

I know the latest boogie man for people are major corporations I mean the "Evil Russia" is gone now. However what EXXON is doing is not illegal and I bet you anything oil companies are not exclusive to reporting losses in the U.S. and gains in countries that tax less. After all in that very same article you posted the U.S. taxes more than just about anyone. Fair? Not really but hey we need to "distribute the wealth" right?



> But it's the tax benefit of overseas operations that is the biggest reason why multinationals end up with lower tax rates than the rest of us. It only makes sense that multinationals "put costs in high-tax countries and profits in low-tax countries," says Scott Hodge, president of the Tax Foundation. Those low-tax countries are almost anywhere but the U.S. "When you add in state taxes, the U.S. has the highest tax burden among industrialized countries," says Hodge. In contrast, China's  rate is just 25%; Ireland's is 12.5%.





DaedalusHelios said:


> Yes but stipulations must be discussed or explained before the purchase or it is a bad business practice. Most wouldn't know and lets all agree we don't read 100% of the writing on everything we buy. If you do you are OCD and that doesn't need to be considered as it is a mental disorder beyond the scope of this discussion.


 Its not anyones fault but yours if you buy something, eat something, drink something before you buy or consume it. Everything you need to know is on the box. If you can pirate then you can read. 



DaedalusHelios said:


> We are not saying copyrights shouldn't be protected. But if the art you sell needs an internet connection to be viewed at any time you would have to tell the buyer before the purchase because it isn't common place for that restriction yet(same goes for video games).


 Game publishers already do. It on the damn box!



newtekie1 said:


> Correct, no one is forcing me to buy the game, which is why I choose to pirate it instead.
> 
> I see this statement alot, at least twice in this thread so far and I only did a quick skim of it, I think I even skipped an entire page. It doesn't make any sense, and it makes the anti-pirate argument looks stupid.  Here, I'll help your side out a little bit here.
> 
> ...



You sound like an ambulance chaser when you try and use semantics to justify your wrong doing. If you downloaded a copy of the game through non-legal channels then it is pirating end of story. Ill even give you a simple example. Just because you steal someones car, test drive it and then return it to them still makes you a thief. Granted games are not tangible like a car but its still infringing on someone else's right to protect their property via law. Plus its just disrespectful but since these are "big nasty corporations" you feel like a little Robbin Hood sticking it to the man. Problem is "The man" pays guys like me that just want a decent life for their family. Every time you steal something you ain't hurting the corporations. You are hurting the villagers oh brave Robin Hood.



newtekie1 said:


> Yes, to the game publishers and developers it certainly is!  Why?  Becuase they didn't make any money off me.  See if I didn't pirate the game, I would have had to actually buy it to try it.


  Poor excuse. I have bought VERY few games that I thought were bad because like all my purchase I do research. Games like movies are good in the eye of the beholder. In todays market with youtube, meta critic and the like there is no reason you should be buying a game you are not 100% sure on. If you question the quality after all that then just wait for it to go on sale like I do. But by your reasoning you just steal because you don't feel like researching. Thats no excuse and is just lazy.



newtekie1 said:


> I remember before that policy, returning several games within the 14 day period for the simple reason that they sucked.  That used to be acceptable, the store would take the game back, and you would get your money back.  And guess what, Publishers actually had to put out games that didn't suck.  Not anymore though, the publishers won't take games back from the stores if they've been openned, so now the consumer is stuck with shit games that they've wasted their money on.  I feel sorry for kids today, I actually really do.  I remember saving and saving, mowing lawns and doing chores for people around the neighborhood when I was 12, so I could go to Software Etc.(yes, I'm dating myself here.) and buy a game.  I also remember getting home and finding out that game sucked, packing it back up, and taking it back.  You can't do that anymore..


 Publishers have always made games that sucked. Store returns have never changed that. ET for the Atari anyone? Anyway I am with you on this one. Stores return policies are out dated when it comes to software and needs to be revised.



newtekie1 said:


> Ok, now I know the next argument will be "well they do have demos".  Yes, they do.  But more often then not, the demo is an extremely small section of the game, usually the best part of the game, that doesn't give a real idea of how the real game will be.  And it seems to be even more popular then ever for Publishers and Developers to not release a demo at all.  There are some really great exceptions to this.  Steam free weekends, where they just let you play the game, the complete game, for an entire weekend free.  That is a great idea, and I applaud Steam for implementing it.  However, it is far too rare, and usually not with brand new games.  Now, if game developers and publishers released demos, that were the full game, but time limitted to say 4 hours of gametime before shutting off and requiring purchase, I probably wouldn't pirate a single game.  The 4 hours of play would be more than enough for me to figure out if I liked the game or not, and if I was going to buy it or not.


 The whole 4 hour thing is a good idea. CoJ2 had a 45 minute trial and a lot of people bought it. I think you may be on to something.



newtekie1 said:


> Oh, and on a different note. I'd like to point out that piracy is not theft.  A handy guide to explain:
> http://www.gameproducer.net/images/piracyisnottheft.jpg
> 
> Anyone that says piracy if theft should be out in front of their local library with picket signs, because they freely allow people, even aid them in, taking books to the copier and photocopying pages! Hell some librarys even have litte kiosks that you you scan pages directly onto a flash drive!.
> ...



Books and games are two entirely different entities and so are the laws that protect them. Also I dare you to go to a library and photocopy Moby Dick.  Piracy is theft. Its not "borrowing" its not "extended demos" and you damn sure ain't hurting anyone but yourselves in the long run by pirating. Think not? What happens when games become unprofitable? What do you think the corporations will do? Yeah thats what I thought. 

Anyway this is my idea for DRM. You buy a game from store with no key for say about 10 bucks? Just the disk, box and any other goodies the developer may include. When you get home and install it the game gives you two options. Call for a key or get a key online. Both would require a credit card. Much like Photoshop or Windows. Once you buy the key its yours forever. However the disk would not be tied to it. This would solve a few things.

1. You would have a hard copy you could trade/sell later
2. No installed DRM. Everything would be done via an activation service.
3. This would be a great DRM and wouldn't inconvenience the consumer.

Would it stop piracy? Nope. But it would stop people from using DRM as an excuse to steal and it would keep the average users happy while still offering some protection to investors.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 3, 2010)

What you desribed, MM, is pretty close to the way Impulse handles their games. 
They even allow refunds (under certain conditions).


----------



## DannibusX (Jun 3, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> 1. You would have a hard copy you could trade/sell later
> 2. No installed DRM. Everything would be done via an activation service.
> 3. This would be a great DRM and wouldn't inconvenience the consumer.



This could work so well, and if you could get the pubs to put up an activation hotline line Microsoft for Windows, you could activate the game over the phone.



			
				Kreij said:
			
		

> What you desribed, MM, is pretty close to the way Impulse handles their games.
> They even allow refunds (under certain conditions).



I may have to look into Impulse.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 3, 2010)

If you go to the Impulse (Stardock) forums, you will see some eye opening things.
Like Stardock *asking* people if they will buy an expansion for a game if they do certain things. They are all about user input and the only company I know of that is doing all it can to balance the DRM with what they call "gamer's rights".

Stardock hates piracy, but they are not going to castrate their user base to stop it. They are even taking input on how to make things more appealing/easy so people will buy the games and not pirate them.

When they released GalCiv II with no DRM, I bought 2 copies just to support their efforts.

As for Ubisoft? ... they can just kiss my ass.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 3, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You sound like an ambulance chaser when you try and use semantics to justify your wrong doing. If you downloaded a copy of the game through non-legal channels then it is pirating end of story. Ill even give you a simple example. Just because you steal someones car, test drive it and then return it to them still makes you a thief. Granted games are not tangible like a car but its still infringing on someone else's right to protect their property via law. Plus its just disrespectful but since these are "big nasty corporations" you feel like a little Robbin Hood sticking it to the man. Problem is "The man" pays guys like me that just want a decent life for their family. Every time you steal something you ain't hurting the corporations. You are hurting the villagers oh brave Robin Hood.



There is no use of semantics at all there.  It isn't two phrases that mean the same thing, or even close to meaning the same thing.  Buy and Play are to totally different things with two totally different meanings.

Again, if I stole the car, no one else would be able to drive it, right?  If I pirate a game, others can still use the original, right?  Piracy is piracy, theft is theft, stop trying to make piracy theft, it isn't.  Does piracy not being theft make piracy any better?  No, certainly not, but the publishers don't care, they want piracy to sound as bad as possible.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Poor excuse. I have bought VERY few games that I thought were bad because like all my purchase I do research. Games like movies are good in the eye of the beholder. In todays market with youtube, meta critic and the like there is no reason you should be buying a game you are not 100% sure on. If you question the quality after all that then just wait for it to go on sale like I do. But by your reasoning you just steal because you don't feel like researching. Thats no excuse and is just lazy.



Watching youtube videos and reading reviews doesn't tell me if I'll like a game or not.  Oh cool, I get to watch all the spoilers of the game on youtube, that is a great way to know if I'll like the game...of course after seeing every plot twist and spoiler, there isn't much point in my buying the game any more is there...



TheMailMan78 said:


> Books and games are two entirely different entities and so are the laws that protect them. Also I dare you to go to a library and photocopy Moby Dick.  Piracy is theft. Its not "borrowing" its not "extended demos" and you damn sure ain't hurting anyone but yourselves in the long run by pirating. Think not? What happens when games become unprofitable? What do you think the corporations will do? Yeah thats what I thought.



For a game to be profitable, at least where I'm considers as a customer, it just has to be good.  Again, if it is good, I buy it.  If it is bad, I don't even play the copy I downloaded.  So your argument here doesn't apply to me, it might to others, but not to me.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Would it stop piracy? Nope. But it would stop people from using DRM as an excuse to steal and it would keep the average users happy while still offering some protection to investors.



I'm with you on idiots using DRM as a reason to pirate.  I think it is totally idiotic in most cases to say "it has DRM, so I'm going to pirate it".  And if you look, there are several instances where I've said that I don't mind DRM, even understand why it is needed. here and here


----------



## El_Mayo (Jun 3, 2010)

Piracy is wrong.
That doesn't mean I'm going to stop though.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 3, 2010)

El_Mayo said:


> Piracy is wrong.
> That doesn't mean I'm going to stop though.



Of course not. Why would you let your ethics get in the way of your desires.


----------



## El_Mayo (Jun 3, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Of course not. Why would you let your ethics get in the way of your desires.



My morals/priorities are rather... "off".
When I get a job then I'll buy (multiplayer) games. Honest


----------



## DannibusX (Jun 3, 2010)

El_Mayo said:


> My morals/priorities are rather... "off".
> When I get a job then I'll buy (multiplayer) games. Honest



Might be too busy paying fines or manufacturing license plates to buy games at that point in time.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 3, 2010)

Just to let you know newtek none of my comments were directed directly at you. Everything was toward your argument and not you personally. 

Anyway I think we kinda see it the same way but some things we will just disagree on. Mainly because my experience vs. yours. Lets just leave this where it stands. I'm very tierd of this argument and until more people have this happen to them personally there will always be inaccurate justifications for wrong doing. For me (and the law) piracy is theft. For you its not (and many others). I think I'm done with this......for now


----------



## El_Mayo (Jun 3, 2010)

DannibusX said:


> Might be too busy paying fines or manufacturing license plates to buy games at that point in time.



hahahaha :')
I always thought I'd look nice in a jumpsuit.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 3, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Just to let you know newtek none of my comments were directed directly at you. Everything was toward your argument and not you personally.
> 
> Anyway I think we kinda see it the same way but some things we will just disagree on. Mainly because my experience vs. yours. Lets just leave this where it stands. I'm very tierd of this argument and until more people have this happen to them personally there will always be inaccurate justifications for wrong doing. For me (and the law) piracy is theft. For you its not (and many others). I think I'm done with this......for now



I'm cool with that, and none of my comments were directed directly at you.

I think we both have pretty similar thoughts on DRM, and while we might not be on the same page, we are at least in the same chapter.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 3, 2010)

niko084 said:


> What I love is how people think they are making a statement by buying the console version!
> 
> Guys, do what I did, give up on gaming and buy a motorcycle, besides the motorcycle often leads to an unlimited supply of *ugly* women.




Fixed.


----------



## niko084 (Jun 3, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Fixed.



Not hardly


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 3, 2010)

niko084 said:


> Not hardly



I wish I could find something better to do with my time than play games but it's what I enjoy. Could be worse, I could enjoy crack.


----------



## niko084 (Jun 3, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> I wish I could find something better to do with my time than play games but it's what I enjoy. Could be worse, I could enjoy crack.



Haha, fair enough...

I still play a few from time to time, but it's getting more and more rare. They don't make them like they used to, and I completely refuse to put up with half the crap these publishers add into their releases.....


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 3, 2010)

niko084 said:


> Haha, fair enough...
> 
> I still play a few from time to time, but it's getting more and more rare. They don't make them like they used to, and I completely refuse to put up with half the crap these publishers add into their releases.....



niko, i am with you on that. i just can't seem to get into any new games. bad company 2 was great for a month but there was some much BS going along with it. kids these days have some pretty high expectations for their games.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 3, 2010)

niko084 said:


> Haha, fair enough...
> 
> I still play a few from time to time, but it's getting more and more rare. They don't make them like they used to, and I completely refuse to put up with half the crap these publishers add into their releases.....





Easy Rhino said:


> niko, i am with you on that. i just can't seem to get into any new games. bad company 2 was great for a month but there was some much BS going along with it. kids these days have some pretty high expectations for their games.



Indeed games are getting worse. I do find myself enjoying games from old school styled publishers with no DRM and listen to customers.


----------



## niko084 (Jun 3, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Indeed games are getting worse. I do find myself enjoying games from old school styled publishers with no DRM and listen to customers.



Heroes Quest!


----------



## DaMulta (Jun 3, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You pirates make me sick.



There is more treasure in web articles than in all the pirate’s loot on piratebay.


----------



## amd/atifiend (Jun 3, 2010)

little late to the party but my opinion is the publishers are using piracy as an excuse to infringe upon our rights as owners. If for some reason I lose my ISP, I cannot play the game that I paid for?! 

I personally do not pirate, I do not have the time to but the percentage of people that do is probably nill. I will also speculate that once a good percentage of pirates do get out of school and earn a good wage that they will end up turning into consumers as well. I also agree with the later points bc I dont game as much as I used to bc alot of the new titles cannot hold my interest and the time I have to game is much less as well.

ubisoft has gone too far imo. At least steam has an offline mode which is tolerable. Bottom line is if the game is great then piracy will not matter(unfortunately neither will DRM).


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 3, 2010)

niko084 said:


> I still play a few from time to time, but it's getting more and more rare. They don't make them like they used to, and I completely refuse to put up with half the crap these publishers add into their releases.....


I think it is because expectations have changed.  Back in the NES days, the only way to make games good was to make them challenging.  They simply didn't have the resources to do much more than that.  Today, it's all about the pizazz: fancy graphics and not much else.  Why the shift?  Originally it was because hardware allowed game designers to do more.  This "eye candy" craze?  That is what consumers have told developers through purchasing games that are big on pretty and small on gameplay.  Pretty is still selling very well.

Until consumers wisen up about buying games with more gameplay, that golden decade of gaming (1993-2003) is gone forever.


----------



## niko084 (Jun 3, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Until consumers wisen up about buying games with more gameplay, that golden decade of gaming (1993-2003) is gone forever.



Sad as it is, you are right 

Although, I must say I did give in and buy Dragon Age, and I'm glad I did... I am about 10 hours into it, and not even really begun.. Graphics are good, gameplay is good, gui is good, 
I can't honestly think of a single complaint I have about it.


----------



## Suijin (Jun 4, 2010)

niko084 said:


> Sad as it is, you are right
> 
> Although, I must say I did give in and buy Dragon Age, and I'm glad I did... I am about 10 hours into it, and not even really begun.. Graphics are good, gameplay is good, gui is good,
> I can't honestly think of a single complaint I have about it.



Did you get Dragon age off of Impulse?  I didn't look into it much, but was wondering if it came free of DRM that way(even CD/DVD check), otherwise I wouldn't get it as I don't want the hassle of DRM anymore in my life.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 4, 2010)

Well having not been active on TPU for some time, coming back to this is just beating a dead horse.

I will, however, partake in this topic mainly because I do feel very strongly in this issue, and because I do enjoy a good debate.

Piracy has been increasing in the past 5 years, that much is well known. I want to point out WHY this has been happening.

1) The PRICE of a game these days is stupid. The prices have recently been increasing, game play has been decreasing. People don't have that kind of expenditure to spare, especially on half assed games. 
2) You say you're an artist, a developer and you're happy with your name being plastered over that diabolical piece of shit?!?!?! You disgust me. You feel happy that the publisher is enforcing DRM on your pathetic, half assed, bug ridden game? The developers are as much in the wrong as the publishers. No wonder why people pirate the game just so they don't feel like they've been punched in the gut when they waste a load of money on something that doesn't work.
3) The DRM that the publishers are enforcing is just getting stupid. Why the hell should honest customers be subjected to that crap. You're just pushing people to piracy.
The first highly anticipated game to be guaranteed to be DRM free will have high, if not record sales. (The Eldar Scrolls 5 - I'm looking at you... please don't have high levels of DRM, please don't disappoint me)

Everything in the current situation is pushing more and more HONEST customers to pirate the game that they want. I know, I was one of them. The game in question was Assassins Creed 2, I was that close to hitting the button that would start the download... then I read over on GN that it was crap so i didn't bother wasting my bandwidth. Not because I didn't want to download it, not because my moral compass got the better of me, but because I didn't want to waste my bandwidth on it. Instead I just went and read the plot on wikipedia.

Having to be constantly connected to the Internet to play a game that I already spent 30-40 quid on is stupid. What about those people on Internet packages that require you to pay per usage? Are the Publishers going to compensate me if I go over my limit because they wanted their constant activation? Fuck off are they.

I am a firm believer in single player being the best bit of a game, If the single player is good, the multiplayer usually is. I shouldn't have to be constantly connected to their servers to save a single player game!


You can spew the "It's stealing" line all you want, but until developers/publishers actually put a game that is worth playing (I've been playing Transport Tycoon - a game that is some 15 plus years old and I get more enjoyment out of it than all these MW, COD rushed titles) I don't see why the pirates shouldn't have their day.

On the topic of these games... I will see how it pans out, maybe the titles will come to Steam, or as Kriej has said... Impluse.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 4, 2010)

WhiteLotus said:


> The first highly anticipated game to be guaranteed to be DRM free will have high, if not record sales. (The Eldar Scrolls 5 - I'm looking at you... please don't disappoint me)


Wha?  Are you saying Bethesda said TES5 won't have DRM?  Linkage?  I doubt Zenimax would go for that.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 4, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Wha?  Are you saying Bethesda said TES5 won't have DRM?  Linkage?  I doubt Zenimax would go for that.



I'm hoping. I should clarify that.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 4, 2010)

I hope your hopes aren't too high.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 4, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I hope your hopes aren't too high.



It will inevitably have DRM on it, just hoping they wont require me to jump through hoops of flaming fire to play a game I going to pay good money for.


----------



## Kreij (Jun 4, 2010)

Both Oblivion and Fallout3 used just a disk check as DRM. I can live with that if it's what on TES 5.


----------



## Chryonn (Jun 4, 2010)

I think publishers should price the games cheaper. how many more of the pirates would  pay only £10 or £15 a game instead of upwards of £29.99? Granted some online stores are pricing theirs at £17.99 but even they are cottoning on to the fact that the more popular big blockbuster games games will sell well regardless of the price so they hike them up anyway. i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that in Russia they outlawed game piracy and cut the price of full retail games down to £5. the result was greater income to the devs and pubs.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 4, 2010)

Chryonn said:


> I think publishers should price the games cheaper. how many more of the pirates would  pay only £10 or £15 a game instead of upwards of £29.99? Granted some online stores are pricing theirs at £17.99 but even they are cottoning on to the fact that the more popular big blockbuster games games will sell well regardless of the price so they hike them up anyway. i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that in Russia they outlawed game piracy and cut the price of full retail games down to £5. the result was greater income to the devs and pubs.



If you could find source for that, then that will be the end of this on going argument.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2010)

Kreij said:


> Both Oblivion and Fallout3 used just a disk check as DRM. I can live with that if it's what on TES 5.



I'm fine with disc checks(Starforce/SecuRom/SafeDisc), and serial numbers.  I'm even fine with online activation if if is handled properly.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 4, 2010)

well there is something intrinsically wrong with the idea that all or even most games are worth the same amount of money.
some games i am fine paying $50-$60 for.  some games are a joke and they throw the same pricetag on them.  i can't even comprehend how this happened.  obviously i refer to larger games, not flash games or puzzle, adventure, etc.
a game they they spend 5 million developing and a game that gets 50 million in dev costs still has the same price tag. maybe cost isn't the best way to price them , but it at least highlights that the SAME price makes no sense.

and a "good game" can be a relatively subjective thing.  but you can objectively tell a shit game from a decent game, or one in the realm of good.
if there weren't so many idiots that pay $60 for cheap knock offs and interactive movie advertising, we maybe wouldn't even be in this position.  idk.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm not.  Disks sitting in drives who's only purpose (after installation) is to declare you "not a pirate" creates senseless busy work for consumers and increases the potential for failure of the medium (which publishers won't remedy).

StarForce, SecuROM, and Tages require rootkits (OS compatibility issues).  SecuROM often gets false positives even on legitimate disks.  SecuROM pioneered the install limit (bad for people that format often, like me).

SafeDisc was alright back in the day because CDs needed to be in drives anyway since hard drives weren't big enough to copy all the files.  Now that no games do that, it doesn't make sense to burden consumers with authenticating a product they know is legitimate or not.  No matter, SafeDisc hasn't seen major use for like 5+ years.


The only form of DRM I am OK with is strictly serial numbers (e.g. Tropico 3).  The reason why serial numbers are OK is for maintenance purposes: patching and multiplayer.  No business should have to pay out money to allow pirates to play the game.  Serial numbers are an effective way to separate legitimate users from the illegitimate pirates.  Yes, it is a pain to type in that 16-25 digit number but you should do it anyway to register the product and, you only have to do it once per install.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the game devs should consider making their games worth $60 by spending some quality time making the gameplay excellent and not just a 3 hour short game thats badly optimized (I'm talking about Splinter Cell Conviction) than wasting time and money on DRM thats anyway gonna get cracked in a few days or maybe a day. In that way people might buy the game. Or atleast piracy might reduce.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I'm not.  Disks sitting in drives who's only purpose (after installation) is to declare you "not a pirate" creates senseless busy work for consumers and increases the potential for failure of the medium (which publishers won't remedy).



True, but the problem of the disc failing is a rare one at best.  I can't even think of the last time a retail CD or DVD failed.  The only real risk is that the user damages the disc, in which case that is the users fault.



FordGT90Concept said:


> StarForce, SecuROM, and Tages require rootkits (OS compatibility issues).



Rootkits?  No, not at all.  They do require drivers to be installed, but so does my mouse, even if I don't install the drivers myself, they are install right when I plug it in.  These are not rootkits.



FordGT90Concept said:


> SecuROM often gets false positives even on legitimate disks.



I can't remember the last time I even saw someone complaining of a false positive from SecuROM...



FordGT90Concept said:


> SecuROM pioneered the install limit (bad for people that format often, like me).



Yes, the company did implement install limits, but that is a different protection scheme.  Do not fault the standard SecruROM DRM for that.  And as I said, even install limits are fine when handled properly.



FordGT90Concept said:


> SafeDisc was alright back in the day because CDs needed to be in drives anyway since hard drives weren't big enough to copy all the files.  Now that no games do that, it doesn't make sense to burden consumers with authenticating a product they know is legitimate or not.  No matter, SafeDisc hasn't seen major use for like 5+ years.
> 
> 
> The only form of DRM I am OK with is strictly serial numbers (e.g. Tropico 3).  The reason why serial numbers are OK is for maintenance purposes: patching and multiplayer.  No business should have to pay out money to allow pirates to play the game.  Serial numbers are an effective way to separate legitimate users from the illegitimate pirates.  Yes, it is a pain to type in that 16-25 digit number but you should do it anyway to register the product and, you only have to do it once per install.



You really think Serial Numbers are an effective way to separate legitimate users from pirates?  Seriously?  A protection scheme that is bypassed by a simple text file?  That won't even stop the completely inept pirates...


----------



## Millennium (Jun 4, 2010)

I thought piracy was dead the moment you needed a unique CD key to play online. Maybe with DRM this will finally happen.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 4, 2010)

Millennium said:


> I thought piracy was dead the moment you needed a unique CD key to play online. Maybe with DRM this will finally happen.



you're right 

just like police have eradicated real crime, it's only a matter of time before nobody tries, or no one is able to, copy a video game.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 4, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> True, but the problem of the disc failing is a rare one at best.  I can't even think of the last time a retail CD or DVD failed.  The only real risk is that the user damages the disc, in which case that is the users fault.


Never had a disk catastrophically fail in a optical drive, I take it?  There's many other downsides to keeping disks in the computer:

1) Most computer BIOS check optical drives for a bootable disk on start causing longer start up time had the tray been empty.

2) When opening My Computer or any view that queries what is in the optical drive, there is a delay as it reads the autorun.ini for icon data as well as retrieving the disk name.

3) When you have a game disk in the drive and you need to exchange it for another disk (e.g. a different game or to rip/listen to music), the user must handle the medium which is when it is most likely to get damaged.  The more games you switch between, the more likely you (or someone else) is to be careless with the disk permanently damaging it.

4) Losing cases.  It is paramount to place optical media in its case so the data surface doesn't get scratched.  When you keep the disk separate from the case, the user runs the risk of losing the case.  Lost case = lost serial key.  Lost serial key = lost game.  Lost game = another pirate.

5) We can't forget time wasted changing disks all the time and, failing to do so, the annoying pop ups telling you your game refuses to run without the disk.

All of that is completely avoidable.




newtekie1 said:


> Rootkits?  No, not at all.  They do require drivers to be installed, but so does my mouse, even if I don't install the drivers myself, they are install right when I plug it in.  These are not rootkits.


Any driver that hides its presence is a rootkit in my book.  Does your mouse hide itself from you?  That travels the very fine line between malware and legitimate software (I say DRM = malware with corporate backing).





newtekie1 said:


> I can't remember the last time I even saw someone complaining of a false positive from SecuROM...


Probably because everyone cracks their games so they don't get those messages (or crack it once they see it). 

I know I last got it on The Sims Carnival: SnapCity.  I had to move the disk from my DVD-ROM drive to my DVD-RW drive.  The DVD-ROM drive works fine but is apparently only semi-compatible with SecuROM.




newtekie1 said:


> Yes, the company did implement install limits, but that is a different protection scheme.  Do not fault the standard SecruROM DRM for that.  And as I said, even install limits are fine when handled properly.


When was the last time you got attacked by a virus and thought: "I need to deauthorize all my games!"  That's assuming you can even get to Windows to do it.  Their deauthorization apps are GUI programs so I highly doubt they'll work from a DOS boot.

Who cares who does what?  They're just more ways for them to deny you the right to use your legitimately purchased product.  Consumer response again?  Crack it.

I can't believe you are defending Sony DADC/DRM.  They work for corporate interests, not yours.




newtekie1 said:


> You really think Serial Numbers are an effective way to separate legitimate users from pirates?  Seriously?  A protection scheme that is bypassed by a simple text file?  That won't even stop the completely inept pirates...


It's really, really simple.  Print a key on a box, place the key in a database.  When you connect online or try to retrieve an update, verify the key against the database and the database makes note of the hit.  If there's over 1000 hits on many IPs, it is probably a key that has been shared, deny it and the legitimate user will contact the company about getting a key that hasn't been hijacked.

It won't stop people from playing pirate copies offline but, who cares?  Those pirates people aren't costing the publisher anything.  That server/client authentication has worked for Valve, it should work for everyone.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Never had a disk catastrophically fail in a optical drive, I take it?  There's many other downsides to keeping disks in the computer:



Sure I have, just not one that wasn't already damaged in some way, and never on a short spin up to query the disk, always on long reads from the disc.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 1) Most computer BIOS check optical drives for a bootable disk on start causing longer start up time had the tray been empty.



Who still puts the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence?  No one worried about a few seconds of extra boot time, that's who.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 2) When opening My Computer or any view that queries what is in the optical drive, there is a delay as it reads the autorun.ini for icon data as well as retrieving the disk name.



Put the disc in when you play the game, take it out when you are done.  Problem solved.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 3) When you have a game disk in the drive and you need to exchange it for another disk (e.g. a different game or to rip/listen to music), the user must handle the medium which is when it is most likely to get damaged.  The more games you switch between, the more likely you (or someone else) is to be careless with the disk permanently damaging it.



As I already said, user carelessness isn't a valid reason, and a rarity all the same.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 4) Losing cases.  It is paramount to place optical media in its case so the data surface doesn't get scratched.  When you keep the disk separate from the case, the user runs the risk of losing the case.  Lost case = lost serial key.  Lost serial key = lost game.  Lost game = another pirate.



Open new game, copy key to spreadsheet, throw box and case in a big box o' boxes in my basement.  Problem solved.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 5) We can't forget time wasted changing disks all the time and, failing to do so, the annoying pop ups telling you your game refuses to run without the disk.



Yes, a minor annoyance.



FordGT90Concept said:


> All of that is completely avoidable.



Not really.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Any driver that hides its presence is a rootkit in my book.  Does your mouse hide itself from you?  That travels the very fine line between malware and legitimate software (I say DRM = malware with corporate backing).



No, but my printers do...




FordGT90Concept said:


> When was the last time you got attacked by a virus and thought: "I need to deauthorize all my games!"  That's assuming you can even get to Windows to do it.  Their deauthorization apps are GUI programs so I highly doubt they'll work from a DOS boot.
> 
> Who cares who does what?  They're just more ways for them to deny you the right to use your legitimately purchased product.  Consumer response again?  Crack it.
> 
> I can't believe you are defending Sony DADC/DRM.  They work for corporate interests, not yours.



Never...most games allow multiple re-installs, not just one.  So I never have to worry about that, and most reset the install limit after a certain amount of time, in fact I don't know a game that doesn't.

And as I said, I'm only for online activation if it is handled properly.

I understand why DRM is necessary, and the majority of the problems are greatly outweighed by the benefits, especially since all the problems affect maybe 1% of the users total.



FordGT90Concept said:


> It's really, really simple.  Print a key on a box, place the key in a database.  When you connect online or try to retrieve an update, verify the key against the database and the database makes note of the hit.  If there's over 1000 hits on many IPs, it is probably a key that has been shared, deny it and the legitimate user will contact the company about getting a key that hasn't been hijacked.
> 
> It won't stop people from playing pirate copies offline but, who cares?  Those pirates people aren't costing the publisher anything.  That server/client authentication has worked for Valve, it should work for everyone.



That really does not make any sense, and I can't believe you would actually post it thinking it was an intelligent idea.

So you want the game to verify online that the key is legit, and have a limitted number of times it can be used...AKA Online activation...

And offline copies don't cost publishers money?  That has to be the most retarded thing...  What about games that are entirely offline?  Oh...those don't matter, publishers make no money off the sales of those...

You really don't have a clue do you?  Because no one with a clue on the subject would even think to say people pirating offline games don't matter.  I bet the publishes of Batman: Arkham Asylum, and Just Cause 2, and Metro 2033 would all totally agree with you that the only pirates we need to stop are the ones that play online...


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 4, 2010)

How about allowing only 1 key to be online at any one time in the style of MSN? I am sure that will work wonders.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 4, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Sure I have, just not one that wasn't already damaged in some way, and never on a short spin up to query the disk, always on long reads from the disc.


It's the spin up when they usually fail.  That is when they are put under the most G-forces.




newtekie1 said:


> Who still puts the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence?  No one worried about a few seconds of extra boot time, that's who.


Most good games take more than one day to beat so, you leave the disk in the drive until you aren't going to play it.  Computer is shut down every night so every morning, it scans the disk again.





newtekie1 said:


> Put the disc in when you play the game, take it out when you are done.  Problem solved.
> 
> As I already said, user carelessness isn't a valid reason, and a rarity all the same.


Not a rarity.  The disk simply not being placed in the tray full can cause deep gouging.  The more inserts/removals, the more likely the disk will become unreadable.  I'm very careful with my disks and my Windows XP Professional x64 Disk became a victim of that unfortunate accident more than once.  It is called normal wear and tear.  Carelessness is losing the disk outright.




newtekie1 said:


> Open new game, copy key to spreadsheet, throw box and case in a big box o' boxes in my basement.  Problem solved.


Hope you don't lose your spreadsheet, or god forbid, copy it down wrong.




newtekie1 said:


> Yes, a minor annoyance.


Pending on the accessibility of your disk stash.  I have at least 600 disks.  It takes a while to find the one I'm looking for (and yes, they are well organized).




newtekie1 said:


> Not really.


Yes, really.  We love pirates for a reason. 




newtekie1 said:


> No, but my printers do...


Check under System Devices.

I can't even find the SecuROM driver in the Device Manager and I know I have SecuROM 7 titles installed.




newtekie1 said:


> Never...most games allow multiple re-installs, not just one.  So I never have to worry about that, and most reset the install limit after a certain amount of time, in fact I don't know a game that doesn't.
> 
> And as I said, I'm only for online activation if it is handled properly.
> 
> I understand why DRM is necessary, and the majority of the problems are greatly outweighed by the benefits, especially since all the problems affect maybe 1% of the users total.


Most with install limits are capped at 5.  Benefits?  What benefits?  The PC gaming industry is rapidly dying.  They're answer?  More DRM.  Market response?  More shrinkage.  DRM does not mean sales.  Good products mean sales.  Only the smart (and generally small) publishers (like Kalypso) figured that out.





newtekie1 said:


> That really does not make any sense, and I can't believe you would actually post it thinking it was an intelligent idea.
> 
> So you want the game to verify online that the key is legit, and have a limitted number of times it can be used...AKA Online activation...
> 
> ...


Client: I wanna play online, here's my key and my game version.
Potential responses:
1) Your key is not legit.  Contact customer support.
2) Your key is legit, but appears to have criminal activity.  Contact customer support.
3) Your key is legit, your game is out of date.  Update automatically.
4) Your key is legit, your game is current.  Run normally.

The requirements for raising a piracy flag would be high (like I said 1000 in say, one day, on at least x number of IP addresses--continent verified).  One user would no way be able to get 1000 connections in 24 hours on say, 20 ips on at least 3 continents.  There's a very good chance the copy is being used for illegitimate purposes.

If you don't play online, none of it concerns you.  Not only does it deter piracy where it costs the publisher money, it also serves as an effective way to shut the cheaters out (again, they can still play offline).

The publishers would be protecting their assets which they rightfully need to protect.  It's not different than Microsoft bricking hacked Xbox 360s.


I'll cite your own picture:





On the right side there, what exactly did the publisher lose?  Nothing?  That's what I thought.  That's how digital distribution works.

Publishers only make money on legitimate transactions, not pirates.  Pirates may become legitimate and legitimate may become pirate.  It is not their job to police the market, it is their job to move product.  They need to focus on their responsibility and leave policing up to the police (which won't do much because there's no theft).

The only way they will get money from a pirate is if they offer an excellent product.  DRM plays virtually no role in that thought process.

Remember, in excess of 70% of those that use the product are pirates.  They need to quit alienating them and try to befriend them.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."  Pirates are addicated to games, pirates are their enemy, pirates can be made friends if the price and product is right.  Jesus, these companies got to go back to Business 101 and learn supply and demand curves and how it relates to the price.  If quality games retailed for $10, only the poverished would still be pirating.  Publisher's greed is killing their industry.




Fourstaff said:


> How about allowing only 1 key to be online at any one time in the style of MSN? I am sure that will work wonders.


Maybe, but if that's an illegitimate user, that could pose serious problems (namely, hard to determine criminals from not).


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 4, 2010)

piracy is theft which is why it is called piracy. do you think real pirates go around sailing the high seas making digital copies of merchant warez  no. obviously they stole the goods, took the women and most likely killed the crew.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 4, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> piracy is theft which is why it is called piracy. do you think real pirates go around sailing the high seas making digital copies of merchant warez  no. obviously they stole the goods, took the women and most likely killed the crew.



yeah but to compare brutal killing and raping, murder - and *actual theft*, to copying a cd and bypassing some code is ridiculous... that's why they give it a name tied to something so bad - to strike fear in those who may do it!

again , i in no way disagree that it is wrong, and you should pay for a game.  what i say is there is no way in hell it makes as big of an impact on sales as these companies try to make us believe... well, try to make me believe 

I think they exaggerate the problem in order to justify squeezing every last possible penny out of us.  there is an amount of waste and loss in every industry, including theft.  manufacturers in every other area of industry deal with it WITHOUT unjustly hassling legitimate consumers, yet somehow most gamers are ok getting a rake shoved up their ass and saying "thanks, more please"


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 4, 2010)

Case 1: No pirated games, no play => piracy is not stealing, just improving the quality of life

Case 2: No pirated games, buy original => Piracy is stealing, because you just denied profits. 

All of us consumers see piracy as case 1 while publishers see it as case 2. I believe the truth lies somewhere between the two, leaning quite heavily towards case 1. But the game publishers think we are leaning heavily to case 2, hence they want to stamp out piracy.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 4, 2010)

digibucc said:


> yeah but to compare brutal killing and raping, murder - and *actual theft*, to copying a cd and bypassing some code is ridiculous... that's why they give it a name tied to something so bad - to strike fear in those who may do it!
> 
> again , i in no way disagree that it is wrong, and you should pay for a game.  what i say is there is no way in hell it makes as big of an impact on sales as these companies try to make us believe... well, try to make me believe
> 
> I think they exaggerate the problem in order to justify squeezing every last possible penny out of us.  there is an amount of waste and loss in every industry, including theft.  manufacturers in every other area of industry deal with it WITHOUT unjustly hassling legitimate consumers, yet somehow most gamers are ok getting a rake shoved up their ass and saying "thanks, more please"



pirates on the high seas stole merchandise which is why the original digital thieves actually called themselves pirates. 

yes, the punishment that comes down for digital piracy is far to great but that does not change the fact the stealing is wrong regardless of which medium you choese to do it.

my opinion is that when you get a product without paying for it, and it is a product that other people have to buy for it to be created in the first place then THAT is stealing. and stealing not just from the developer or the publisher but from the actual people who pay for the game. 

piracy hurts the people who actually pay for the game more than the companies because it drives up the cost of games (justified or not.)


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 4, 2010)

Fourstaff said:


> Case 1: No pirated games, no play => piracy is not stealing, just improving the quality of life
> 
> Case 2: No pirated games, buy original => Piracy is stealing, because you just denied profits.
> 
> All of us consumers see piracy as case 1 while publishers see it as case 2. I believe the truth lies somewhere between the two, leaning quite heavily towards case 1. But the game publishers think we are leaning heavily to case 2, hence they want to stamp out piracy.



So are you improving the life of the people who made the game? You know the artists who IMPROVE YOUR LIFE?! No you are not. You are robbing them of their hard work and creativity. That alone should buy you massive jail time.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 4, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's the spin up when they usually fail.  That is when they are put under the most G-forces.



I've never seen one fail on spin-up. It only happens when they are spinning their fastest, and centrifugal force are the highest.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Most good games take more than one day to beat so, you leave the disk in the drive until you aren't going to play it.  Computer is shut down every night so every morning, it scans the disk again.



I'm starting to wonder if you even read what others post, or just kind of drift in and out, more maybe you just know nothing about what they are saying...

I'll repeat myself: Who still puts the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence? No one worried about a few seconds of extra boot time, that's who.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Not a rarity.  The disk simply not being placed in the tray full can cause deep gouging.  The more inserts/removals, the more likely the disk will become unreadable.  I'm very careful with my disks and my Windows XP Professional x64 Disk became a victim of that unfortunate accident more than once.  It is called normal wear and tear.  Carelessness is losing the disk outright.



As I said, user carelessness is not a valid reason.  Not putting the disc in the case properly is user carelessness.  If handled properly CDs and DVDs can last years, even if handled every day.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Hope you don't lose your spreadsheet, or god forbid, copy it down wrong.



Not likely, it is backed up in 4 different locations, one off site from the rest.

And the step right after putting it in the spreadsheet is installing the game using the number in the spreadsheet, so no chance of it being wrong.

Of course...if game publishers used your method, it would suck for someone to get my spreadsheet, because they would have every game I have in however long it takes them to copy a 10k document...great system, though, it would definitely help stop piracy...



FordGT90Concept said:


> Pending on the accessibility of your disk stash.  I have at least 600 disks.  It takes a while to find the one I'm looking for (and yes, they are well organized).



Two 300 disc CD cases, and a 3rd in the works, all alphabetized.  Takes about 15 seconds to find the disc I need.  So I don't know why it would take you a while, so they must not be that well organized.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Yes, really.  We love pirates for a reason.



Yes, but not avoidable in the manner you are arguing for.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Check under System Devices.
> 
> I can't even find the SecuROM driver in the Device Manager and I know I have SecuROM 7 titles installed.



The driver is only active when SecuROM is active, similar to a device only showing up when it is plugged in.  I can look under Device manager and not see a single one of the ~5 flash drives I've plugged into the machine in the past month, yet I know the drivers are installed.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Most with install limits are capped at 5.  Benefits?  What benefits?  The PC gaming industry is rapidly dying.  They're answer?  More DRM.  Market response?  More shrinkage.  DRM does not mean sales.  Good products mean sales.  Only the smart (and generally small) publishers (like Kalypso) figured that out.



The benefits are keeping casual pirates from copying the game and giving it to their friends in the first few weeks of sales.  That is all DRM and these copy protection schemes are meant to do.

And less DRM doesn't help either, if you want a good example of that look at World of Goo.  No DRM, and all they got for it was the market responce saying "fuck you, we're going to pirate it anyway", which is why 90% of World of Goo installs are pirated...



FordGT90Concept said:


> Client: I wanna play online, here's my key and my game version.
> Potential responses:
> 1) Your key is not legit.  Contact customer support.
> 2) Your key is legit, but appears to have criminal activity.  Contact customer support.
> ...



Yes, that is online activation, no matter how you want to try and explain it, it is.  The game is verifying if the key is legit.  It doesn't matter if it doesn't it once when the game is first installed and the limit it to 5 times, or it does every time the game runs and the limit it to 1000 times, it is still online activation.



FordGT90Concept said:


> If you don't play online, none of it concerns you.  Not only does it deter piracy where it costs the publisher money, it also serves as an effective way to shut the cheaters out (again, they can still play offline).
> 
> The publishers would be protecting their assets which they rightfully need to protect.  It's not different than Microsoft bricking hacked Xbox 360s.



Again with the argument that only online games matter...are you dense or still just drifting in and out of the conversation?



FordGT90Concept said:


> I'll cite your own picture:
> http://www.gameproducer.net/images/piracyisnottheft.jpg
> On the right side there, what exactly did the publisher lose?  Nothing?  That's what I thought.  That's how digital distribution works.



In the case of offline games, it could mean they are lossing a sale.  The first few weeks after a release are when the most sales occure, and again that is when the DRM is targetted to be effective.  If it keeps the game out of the casusal pirates hands for a few weeks, they are more likely to go out and buy the game.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Publishers only make money on legitimate transactions, not pirates.  Pirates may become legitimate and legitimate may become pirate.  It is not their job to police the market, it is their job to move product.  They need to focus on their responsibility and leave policing up to the police (which won't do much because there's no theft).



That is exactly what the DRM makers job is.



FordGT90Concept said:


> The only way they will get money from a pirate is if they offer an excellent product.  DRM plays virtually no role in that thought process.
> 
> Remember, in excess of 70% of those that use the product are pirates.  They need to quit alienating them and try to befriend them.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."  Pirates are addicated to games, pirates are their enemy, pirates can be made friends if the price and product is right.  Jesus, these companies got to go back to Business 101 and learn supply and demand curves and how it relates to the price.  If quality games retailed for $10, only the poverished would still be pirating.  Publisher's greed is killing their industry.



See World of Goo example above, your argument has been proven false.  The game was critically acclaimed as being excellent, and it was, it was also only $20 when it was released, and even cheaper when they offered the "pay what you want" sale.  Yet, 90% piracy rate...:shadedshu


----------



## Fourstaff (Jun 4, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So are you improving the life of the people who made the game? You know the artists who IMPROVE YOUR LIFE?! No you are not. You are robbing them of their hard work and creativity. That alone should buy you massive jail time.



Well, you see, not everyone can afford to buy games (indeed, I never received any pocket money from my parents, my parents forbade me from working, so I can only borrow games form my friends if I want to play them), so the only options are either deprived of gaming or pirate. Given that choice, I am sure the game devs will pick the first option, no pay no play. But they could have easily said "look, I will turn a blind eye to this" and leave the kid with some satisfaction (hence improving their quality of life), and maybe (highly unlikely with current mentality) in the future pay the devs back by buying their games.


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jun 5, 2010)

Simple explanation for this thread's views:

Being on the side of corporations on this issue = are behaving like a corporatist(corporate lackey) which is easily confused with American Libertarians and sometimes the same

Being on the side of the "Pirates" = justifying being cheap but _it is not like you were going to buy the game anyway_ so no real harm done, but you are still a cheap bastard 

Being on the side of the consumer = people who don't pirate and don't want to be punished for supporting a corporation and paying full price (*the only innocent ones in this matter*)

So basically from the paranoia of lost sales on the corporations end. Therefore they would rather let the consumer suffer than themselves take a possible hit in sales no matter how small it in fact is from the shear gravity of their greed. So in effect they will screw the customer and see if they get more sales. Because of the pirates they are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The only idiots here are the corporations thinking they can come up with a solution for everything yet failing harder than even governments can. Don't try to justify a company's failed policies like it is a political party that needs support. *Treating the customer badly should be avoided at all costs.*


----------



## digibucc (Jun 5, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> pirates on the high seas stole merchandise which is why the original digital thieves actually called themselves pirates.


see that's just stupid.  why did they go and do that? 


Easy Rhino said:


> yes, the punishment that comes down for digital piracy is far to great but that does not change the fact the stealing is wrong regardless of which medium you choese to do it.
> 
> my opinion is that when you get a product without paying for it, and it is a product that other people have to buy for it to be created in the first place then THAT is stealing. and stealing not just from the developer or the publisher but from the actual people who pay for the game.
> 
> piracy hurts the people who actually pay for the game more than the companies because it drives up the cost of games (justified or not.)



I agree , except the point i was trying to get to is I think NOW, no matter if piracy were actually eradicated or not, the companies already have a lock on the market - and when they make the statistics how can we ever no how much of a difference it makes?

there is a difference between philosophically understanding and believe that stealing is wrong, whether you take the original or not. (i do not think it actually hurts anyone EXCEPT it doesn't give a good dev/artist/etc their due - which for me is a huge reason and enough of one not to do it)

anyway a difference between understanding that, and then being naive enough to believe pirates ACTUALLY have the effect these companies claim.

it's wrong and all. but these companies flat out lie, and whine about their profits which again ARE RECORD PROFITS, OFTEN! and i think that makes them more wrong.

so in this world of greys and hues, and not just black and white. if you ask me who the "real" bad guy is - it is the greedy execs. not the pirates, certainly not the "devs" aka artists, but the conglomerates behind them. they are the most unnecessary part of the business AND they cause the most problems.

*sure the pirates are stealing, but at least they are upfront about it.*


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 5, 2010)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Simple explanation for this thread's views:
> 
> Being on the side of corporations on this issue = are behaving like a corporatist(corporate lackey) which is easily confused with American Libertarians and sometimes the same
> 
> ...



Wow! Why let the facts get in the way of a shallow ideology.


----------



## entropy13 (Jun 5, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So are you improving the life of the people who made the game? You know the artists who IMPROVE YOUR LIFE?! No you are not. You are robbing them of their hard work and creativity. That alone should buy you massive jail time.



I won't be able to improve their lives anyway because I don't have enough money in the first place. When I have enough money for games at Steam prices, I won't be able to buy it since I have cash. Buying it in the retail shops is obviously much much much more expensive.


----------



## Marineborn (Jun 5, 2010)

i got some 200+ games to beat no skin off my back, DRM away! lol


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 5, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> pirates on the high seas stole merchandise which is why the original digital thieves actually called themselves pirates.
> 
> yes, the punishment that comes down for digital piracy is far to great but that does not change the fact the stealing is wrong regardless of which medium you choese to do it.
> 
> ...


Digital distribution is not stealing unless you are accessing a source without authorized access.  Last time I checked, people distribute it because they want to.

No one really cares what name was stuck to using digital distribution.  Hell, most industries are trying to convince politicians that peer to peer is evil.

I like to call "pirates" Xerox machines because they make copies, they don't rape, pillage, plunder, and kill.  Xerox machines are to Robin Hood as industry is to the Sheriff of Nottingham.




TheMailMan78 said:


> So are you improving the life of the people who made the game? You know the artists who IMPROVE YOUR LIFE?! No you are not. You are robbing them of their hard work and creativity. That alone should buy you massive jail time.


No impact.  Them Xerox machines don't appear on their balance sheets.  Digital "piracy" isn't a legtimate write off as a loss.




newtekie1 said:


> I'm starting to wonder if you even read what others post, or just kind of drift in and out, more maybe you just know nothing about what they are saying...
> 
> I'll repeat myself: Who still puts the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence? No one worried about a few seconds of extra boot time, that's who.


Nice insult.  I assumed it was an easy concept to grasp but apparently I was wrong.  I'll be more thorough:

Day 1: Disk in drive to install.
Day 1: Disk stays in drive to play.
Day 1: Computer shuts down, disk still in drive.
Day 2: Computer turns on, disk is scanned for a boot sector.
Day 2: You play the game, disk still in drive.
Day 2: Computer shuts down, disk still in drive.
Day 3: Rince and repeat.




newtekie1 said:


> Not likely, it is backed up in 4 different locations, one off site from the rest.
> 
> And the step right after putting it in the spreadsheet is installing the game using the number in the spreadsheet, so no chance of it being wrong.
> 
> Of course...if game publishers used your method, it would suck for someone to get my spreadsheet, because they would have every game I have in however long it takes them to copy a 10k document...great system, though, it would definitely help stop piracy...


Notice what you are doing?  Making a backup.  Can't do that with the disk because they forbid it.  If you lose your disk or your serial, you'll have to go buy it again (publisher stance).  The reason we libraries, for example, are allowed to make backup copies is so that losses aren't so tramatizing.  





newtekie1 said:


> Two 300 disc CD cases, and a 3rd in the works, all alphabetized.  Takes about 15 seconds to find the disc I need.  So I don't know why it would take you a while, so they must not be that well organized.


15 seconds wasted everytime you want to play it.  It adds up, fast.





newtekie1 said:


> The driver is only active when SecuROM is active, similar to a device only showing up when it is plugged in.  I can look under Device manager and not see a single one of the ~5 flash drives I've plugged into the machine in the past month, yet I know the drivers are installed.


Nope, still hidden:









newtekie1 said:


> The benefits are keeping casual pirates from copying the game and giving it to their friends in the first few weeks of sales.  That is all DRM and these copy protection schemes are meant to do.
> 
> And less DRM doesn't help either, if you want a good example of that look at World of Goo.  No DRM, and all they got for it was the market responce saying "fuck you, we're going to pirate it anyway", which is why 90% of World of Goo installs are pirated...


That only stops people without an internet connection.


They still made more than their production costs back on the 10%.  Example: 2D Boy made $100,000 in one week via pay-what-you-want birthday sale.

2D Boy is embrassing the pirate instead of alienating him.




newtekie1 said:


> Yes, that is online activation, no matter how you want to try and explain it, it is.  The game is verifying if the key is legit.  It doesn't matter if it doesn't it once when the game is first installed and the limit it to 5 times, or it does every time the game runs and the limit it to 1000 times, it is still online activation.


You need to be online to play online.  Everyone qualifies and it protects the sole asset where piracy costs publishers money.

The game wouldn't require "activation" (as I said, installer wouldn't ask for a key and you don't need a key to play single player).  It is just part of the handshake with the master servers.




newtekie1 said:


> Again with the argument that only online games matter...are you dense or still just drifting in and out of the conversation?


Offline games don't cost the publisher anything.  They can't report it as a loss.




newtekie1 said:


> In the case of offline games, it could mean they are lossing a sale.  The first few weeks after a release are when the most sales occure, and again that is when the DRM is targetted to be effective.  If it keeps the game out of the casusal pirates hands for a few weeks, they are more likely to go out and buy the game.


Not likely.  Most pirates will wait for the fix which they know is in the works.  That happened with Assassin's Creed 2 most recently (it was almost a month after release to get cracked).  Ubisoft hasn't released PC-only sales of the game most likely because they are very disappointing.  DRM directly killed their profit margins because the game is good, but the DRM is unacceptable.




newtekie1 said:


> That is exactly what the DRM makers job is.


And they're failing, miserably.  If you saw a 30% score on one of your children's tests, would you be happy about that?





newtekie1 said:


> See World of Goo example above, your argument has been proven false.  The game was critically acclaimed as being excellent, and it was, it was also only $20 when it was released, and even cheaper when they offered the "pay what you want" sale.  Yet, 90% piracy rate...:shadedshu


There's nothing they can do about the pirates.  They still made a crapload of money.


----------



## wahdangun (Jun 5, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Digital distribution is not stealing unless you are accessing a source without authorized access.  Last time I checked, people distribute it because they want to.
> 
> No one really cares what name was stuck to using digital distribution.  Hell, most industries are trying to convince politicians that peer to peer is evil.
> 
> ...




btw if you really didn't like CD, why don't you go to steam or impuls ? and btw that game was for charity so its really loss indeed. and if you buy something and you break it(in this case you scratch the disk), its your responsible and not the publisher. 






newtekie1 said:


> I've never seen one fail on spin-up. It only happens when they are spinning their fastest, and centrifugal force are the highest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





this is exactly what i want to said. so drm is necessary as long as it not limit the user from playing your game.

yeah its really suck to see pirate pirated that gme did they know the game was for charity, sick bastard


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 5, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> btw if you really didn't like CD, why don't you go to steam or impuls ? and btw that game was for charity so its really loss indeed. and if you buy something and you break it(in this case you scratch the disk), its your responsible and not the publisher.


I like disks (because it is a phyiscal, owned product where something bought from Steam or Impulse isn't) but I only like using them when I install software or rip music.  Once that is done, they go back in their holder for months if not years virtually eliminating the risk of damaging them.

Um?  World of Goo is not a charity product.  It was designed by two former Electronic Arts employees and sold for profit.  I can't name one game that was designed "for charity."

The publisher should at least work with you to replace that chunk of plastic for a discounted price but no, they don't care at all.  Good chance those individuals join the pirates.  How many of you downloaded an ISO of a game disk because your disk was lost or destroyed?  That was an act of the Xerox machine which publishers would call piracy.  Is it morally wrong for publishers to not support their customers?  Yes.  Is it morally wrong for customers to break DMCA law?  Yes.  Who is more wrong?  Customers are responding to the situation in front of them, as are publishers.  Their interests conflict and the market shrinks.




wahdangun said:


> this is exactly what i want to said. so drm is necessary as long as it not limit the user from playing your game.


That's the sole purpose of DRM--limit users from using the product.  They aren't in place to guarentee all users will have an error-free time playing the game.  They error by default (as demonstrated by my Fallout 3/SecuROM picture).




wahdangun said:


> yeah its really suck to see pirate pirated that gme did they know the game was for charity, sick bastard


Again, World of Goo is not a charity product.


FYI, World of Goo cost about $10,000 to make (and again, it made over $100,000 in one week).


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 5, 2010)

Does anyone here actually support the DRM ?


----------



## digibucc (Jun 5, 2010)

mdsx1950 said:


> Does anyone here actually support the DRM ?



a few have, but not many,  it seems the people who actually support the drm don't really understand anything about the situation, or even care - they just want to get their word in.

it seems pretty evenly split, between those who defend the companies and hate drm and those who defend the pirates and hate drm.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 5, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> No impact.  Them Xerox machines don't appear on their balance sheets.  Digital "piracy" isn't a legtimate write off as a loss.


 No impact huh? Wow you have no concept of the problems artists face when it comes to industry. I would love to see how long some of you pirates would last trying to make money being creative. Every penny counts. There is no room to "write things off".


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 5, 2010)

digibucc said:


> a few have, but not many,  it seems *the people who actually support the drm don't really understand anything about the situation*, or even care - they just want to get their word in.
> 
> it seems pretty evenly split, between those who defend the companies and hate drm and those who defend the pirates and hate drm.



100% agree with you there. 

Ridiculous.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 5, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No impact huh? Wow you have no concept of the problems artists face when it comes to industry. I would love to see how long some of you pirates would last trying to make money being creative. Every penny counts. There is no room to "write things off".


The music world has changed (MP3 downloads versus packaged albums) just as the film and game industries are changing.  Calling potential customers and customers pirates isn't going to make them customers or stay customers.  The game industry has practically turned into the Salem Witch Trials.  They're going to have to learn the hard way what it means to treat customers right.

As 2D Boy demonstrated.  There's a lot of money to be made without DRM.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 5, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The music world has changed (MP3 downloads versus packaged albums) just as the film and game industries are changing.  Calling potential customers and customers pirates isn't going to make them customers or stay customers.  The game industry has practically turned into the Salem Witch Trials.  They're going to have to learn the hard way what it means to treat customers right.
> 
> As 2D Boy demonstrated.  There's a lot of money to be made without DRM.



2D boy made a great game but they are not in the same league as other developers. Try developing a Battlefield game on a 10,000 dollar budget. I dare ya. DRM is necessary to get investors to commit massive amounts of money. However extreme DRM (always online) is just counter productive.

Pirating is just a fancy why to describe stealing. End of story. No semantics or far out justification will change the bottom line. Its theft. Its wrong.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 5, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Nice insult.  I assumed it was an easy concept to grasp but apparently I was wrong.  I'll be more thorough:
> 
> Day 1: Disk in drive to install.
> Day 1: Disk stays in drive to play.
> ...



*sigh*

I'll repeat myself _again_: Who still puts the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence? No one worried about a few seconds of extra boot time, that's who.

I guess since you don't seem to know what a boot sequence is, or rather what happens when you put the HDD before the optical drive in the boot sequence, and can't be arsed to look it up, I'll explain.

When you put the optical drive before the HDD, what you said happens.  However, when you don't, the computer looks for a boot sector on the HDD first, if it finds one, it boots from the HDD, so it never looks for a boot sector on the Optical Drive.

Now, the people that are worried about the extra 2-3 seconds longer it takes to boot because it is looking for a boot sector on the optical drive don't put the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence.  Why?  Because it still takes an extra 1-2 seconds to see if there is a disc in the optical drive before moving on to the HDD even if there is no disc in the drive, so for people that seconds of boot time count, they don't want to wait on the optical drive, they set it to boot directly into the HDD.





FordGT90Concept said:


> Notice what you are doing?  Making a backup.  Can't do that with the disk because they forbid it.  If you lose your disk or your serial, you'll have to go buy it again (publisher stance).  The reason we libraries, for example, are allowed to make backup copies is so that losses aren't so tramatizing.



I make backups of all my game discs.  If I loose it, I will use the backups with a crack.  I see no problem with that.  Of course, by the time that happens, it is way past the point where the publisher is worried about making any money of the game.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 15 seconds wasted everytime you want to play it.  It adds up, fast.



Every time I want to play a _different_ game, and even then it would have to be a game that I've already beat, not every time I want to play.  I don't file the games away until I beat them and stop playing them, before that they sit on my desk for quick access.  So it is about 3 seconds for modern games.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Nope, still hidden:
> http://img.techpowerup.org/100605/securom.png



I believe, at this point, Starforce is the only one of the three that actually still uses drivers.  SecuROM and Tages are integrated entirely in the SecuROM librarys and the game executables.  Vista, particularly the x64 editions, made it easier to use this method with less issues.




FordGT90Concept said:


> That only stops people without an internet connection.
> 
> 
> They still made more than their production costs back on the 10%.  Example: 2D Boy made $100,000 in one week via pay-what-you-want birthday sale.
> ...



It also stops those without the knowledge or will to find cracks...which seems to be a shrinking population, which is why DRM is increasing...

As I said, the casual pirate is becoming less casual.



FordGT90Concept said:


> You need to be online to play online.  Everyone qualifies and it protects the sole asset where piracy costs publishers money.
> 
> The game wouldn't require "activation" (as I said, installer wouldn't ask for a key and you don't need a key to play single player).  It is just part of the handshake with the master servers.



Activation is a handshake between a master server and the game...

Again, it doesn't matter if it does it once when the game is first installed, and the limit is 5, or every time you get online and the limit is 1000, the concept is the same.  In fact most people oppose doing it every time the game is run more than just once when the game is installed.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Offline games don't cost the publisher anything.  They can't report it as a loss.



Wow...




FordGT90Concept said:


> Not likely.  Most pirates will wait for the fix which they know is in the works.  That happened with Assassin's Creed 2 most recently (it was almost a month after release to get cracked).  Ubisoft hasn't released PC-only sales of the game most likely because they are very disappointing.  DRM directly killed their profit margins because the game is good, but the DRM is unacceptable.



Agreed, the DRM on Assisin's creed is unacceptable, I believe I said that...

However, hardcore pirates will wait, casual pirates are not as likely.  If someone wants to play the game, and it isn't immediately available pirated, they are more likely to go buy it.  They still might not, but they also might buy it, and some certainly do.

So, yes, they are loosing money on offline games.



FordGT90Concept said:


> And they're failing, miserably.  If you saw a 30% score on one of your children's tests, would you be happy about that?



Without the exact numbers of how many people have bought a game because DRM made pirating it too hard, no one can say they are failing.

The problem is it is hard to say how a game would sell in the first few weeks with and without DRM.  You would need almost two different worlds.  In one world, release the game with DRM, and in the other release it without, and see the difference.  But that will never happen, so it is almost impossible to know how DRM is effecting the sales of games. 



FordGT90Concept said:


> There's nothing they can do about the pirates.  They still made a crapload of money.



In the scheme of things, they probably didn't make nearly as much profit as you think...



digibucc said:


> a few have, but not many,  it seems the people who actually support the drm don't really understand anything about the situation, or even care - they just want to get their word in.
> 
> it seems pretty evenly split, between those who defend the companies and hate drm and those who defend the pirates and hate drm.



I think those that don't support DRM don't really understand anything about the situation, or even care to know what DRM is supposed to do or how it works.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 5, 2010)

I back DRM to an extent. Its needed. No doubt. However some DRM goes WAY beyond being productive and is actually hurting the developer.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 5, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I back DRM to an extent. Its needed. No doubt. However some DRM goes WAY beyond being productive and is actually hurting the developer.



My views exactly.


----------



## Chryonn (Jun 5, 2010)

this will only end badly for the PC. it's ever-decreasing circles: publishers push higher prices due to piracy causing gamers to pirate which in turn decreases revenue for the publishers who push the prices up.... 
net effect: no one will ever want to develop for PC.
the exception to this is the MMO but even they run private servers to avoid the monthly sub.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 5, 2010)

Chryonn said:


> this will only end badly for the PC. it's ever-decreasing circles: publishers push higher prices due to piracy causing gamers to pirate which in turn decreases revenue for the publishers who push the prices up....
> net effect: no one will ever want to develop for PC.
> the exception to this is the MMO but even they run private servers to avoid the monthly sub.



I'm sorry but the higher prices argument is stupid. (Not you). When I was 10 years old games cost 49.99 and gas was .99 a gallon. 20 years later games still cost 49.99 on the PC 59.99 on the console and gas is damn near 4 bucks a gallon in some places!

Cost of living goes up. Development prices go up. Games have basically stayed the same. Granted the user base has gone up also but nowhere near enough to justify the small price increase. Games are cheap as fas as I'm concerned.


----------



## Chryonn (Jun 5, 2010)

a fair point. so the price stays the same, people still pirate the game, pub/devs make a loss on the PC, net effect is still the same; no one will want to develop for PC.


----------



## Muhad (Jun 5, 2010)

Always On DRM = Sale NOT!


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 5, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> 2D boy made a great game but they are not in the same league as other developers. Try developing a Battlefield game on a 10,000 dollar budget. I dare ya. DRM is necessary to get investors to commit massive amounts of money. However extreme DRM (always online) is just counter productive.
> 
> Pirating is just a fancy why to describe stealing. End of story. No semantics or far out justification will change the bottom line. Its theft. Its wrong.


The better the product, the more it is worth.  World of Goo is 2D and short.  Games like Assassin's Creed 2, without DRM, could fetch $30 easily.  Like 2D Boy did with their birthday sale, a thousands of sales were made at only $1 each.  When products are that cheap, price is made up with volume.

Piracy on the high seas means stealing.  Pirating in the digital realm means elaborate duplicates fabricated by criminal rings (the film industry has a huge problem with that).  Simply backing up software (copying a CD) does not constitute piracy, it may, or may not, constitute a copyright violation--no more, no less.  There's only been a handful of cases where people have gone to court over copying copyrighted digital content and got punished for it, namely because the original copyright law overrides DMCA.




newtekie1 said:


> I guess since you don't seem to know what a boot sequence is, or rather what happens when you put the HDD before the optical drive in the boot sequence, and can't be arsed to look it up, I'll explain.


Oh, that's what you're talking about.  All OEM computers I've seen (which are some 90% of the market) have optical drive first and hard drive second.  They have to put it in that order to load Windows the first time and they never go back to change it.




newtekie1 said:


> Now, the people that are worried about the extra 2-3 seconds longer it takes to boot because it is looking for a boot sector on the optical drive don't put the optical drive before the HDD in the boot sequence.  Why?  Because it still takes an extra 1-2 seconds to see if there is a disc in the optical drive before moving on to the HDD even if there is no disc in the drive, so for people that seconds of boot time count, they don't want to wait on the optical drive, they set it to boot directly into the HDD.


All those 5 things I said add up, on top of the extra time it takes to verify the disk when you actually start the game.  A five + one point either completely eliminated, or reduces, DRM overhead to less than a second.  Never mind saving the hassle of changing disks all the time.




newtekie1 said:


> I make backups of all my game discs.  If I loose it, I will use the backups with a crack.  I see no problem with that.  Of course, by the time that happens, it is way past the point where the publisher is worried about making any money of the game.


DMCA does.




newtekie1 said:


> I believe, at this point, Starforce is the only one of the three that actually still uses drivers.  SecuROM and Tages are integrated entirely in the SecuROM librarys and the game executables.  Vista, particularly the x64 editions, made it easier to use this method with less issues.


I double the SecuROM FAQ and apparently it doesn't use a driver, it uses a Windows Service.


> 3.4 Why does SecuROM™ sometimes remain active in the background, even if the protected application is not running?
> 
> By default, SecuROM™ does not install any permanently active applications, services, or drivers. Some older versions of SecuROM™ protected applications use a special configuration which will install a Windows Service called “User Access Service”. This service allows a user to share DRM licenses among multiple users of the same PC.
> This service is only used during the initial SecuROM™ authentication upon the start of the application. At all other times, the service runs in the “idle” mode. This means that it is passively waiting for a SecuROM™ protected application to perform the respective DRM authentication during the startup of that protected application.







newtekie1 said:


> Without the exact numbers of how many people have bought a game because DRM made pirating it too hard, no one can say they are failing.
> 
> The problem is it is hard to say how a game would sell in the first few weeks with and without DRM.  You would need almost two different worlds.  In one world, release the game with DRM, and in the other release it without, and see the difference.  But that will never happen, so it is almost impossible to know how DRM is effecting the sales of games.


They never give numbers for a reason.  They know their DRM doesn't work and they keep it under wraps, constantly updating and upgrading it in hopes that a different approach will improve their previously poor DRM numbers.

Basically, there's no sense discussing it because internally, it is a viciously repeating cycle of more DRM/worse sales.

The best grossing PC games of all time, The Sims series, has never had very robust DRM on it yet, it is mindbogglingly successful.  If they released it without DRM, it would be at least equally successful.  If they put strong DRM on it, it is likely to drop significantly in sales.  We'll never know though because they'll keep it under wraps.

Yes, there's more legitimate copies without DRM but there are also likely to be more sales (the illegitimate users have no excuse not to buy it if they have the means and ways to do so).


As I stated in the challenge to Ubisoft to release a DRM free SKU of BG&E2, sell two versions of a game at the same time: DRM version for $40 or $50 and DRM-free version for $50-60 more.  Sales for the DRM-free version, despite costing more, is likely to sell considerably better.




newtekie1 said:


> In the scheme of things, they probably didn't make nearly as much profit as you think...


There's nothing to suggest they aren't.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 5, 2010)

DRM is ok. Always On DRM... not ok.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 5, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I think those that don't support DRM don't really understand anything about the situation, or even care to know what DRM is supposed to do or how it works.



really??
you struck me as the "defending companies but doesn't like DRM" type. sorry to have misconstrued.

you obviously have a grasp of the situation... still, if you truly like and support DRM i don't know what to say - you are crazy.  liking DRM is akin to liking war,  - you may know it can serve a purpose and sometimes accomplishes it's goals, but if you actually think it's a good thing, there is something not right with you.  

I understand the necessity to protect your work.  i recognize at this point in time, despite my best hopes for humanity , there has to be some way to do that. still, i could never say I like or even support DRM. 

I think in it's bare form it's the lesser of two evils. But as methods become more ridiculous and complicated, it becomes the greater - where i think it is rapidly heading at this time.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 5, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Oh, that's what you're talking about.  All OEM computers I've seen (which are some 90% of the market) have optical drive first and hard drive second.  They have to put it in that order to load Windows the first time and they never go back to change it.



Yes, and pre-built or not, it can be changed if the consumer is that concerned with the few extra seconds of boot time, as I said originally and you ignored.




FordGT90Concept said:


> All those 5 things I said add up, on top of the extra time it takes to verify the disk when you actually start the game.  A five + one point either completely eliminated, or reduces, DRM overhead to less than a second.  Never mind saving the hassle of changing disks all the time.



Yes, a necessary evil because there is not a better alternative.  No mattter how much you want to think your way of a simple serial is better, it has been proven time and time again to be completely useless, it was one of the earliest forms of DRM, and it failed horribly.




FordGT90Concept said:


> I double the SecuROM FAQ and apparently it doesn't use a driver, it uses a Windows Service.



Yep, a service that is listed right in the services list...NOT a rootkit...but nice try...




FordGT90Concept said:


> They never give numbers for a reason.  They know their DRM doesn't work and they keep it under wraps, constantly updating and upgrading it in hopes that a different approach will improve their previously poor DRM numbers.



I don't believe so, but without knowing the numbers we can't be sure.  I know who can be sure, the publishers, and they seem to think it works...



FordGT90Concept said:


> Basically, there's no sense discussing it because internally, it is a viciously repeating cycle of more DRM/worse sales.



You mean more DRM/more sales, because obviously the areas with the most DRM, consoles, also has the best sales numbers...



FordGT90Concept said:


> The best grossing PC games of all time, The Sims series, has never had very robust DRM on it yet, it is mindbogglingly successful.  If they released it without DRM, it would be at least equally successful.  If they put strong DRM on it, it is likely to drop significantly in sales.  We'll never know though because they'll keep it under wraps.



Not likely, mainly because the large bulk of the consumers are completely unaware of the DRM in games, and they just don't care.  The sheep will continue to go out to the stores and buy the games, the small few that oppose DRM, and don't buy the game because of it, won't make a dent in sales numbers, and those numbers will likely be made up by the number of people that are stopped from just copying the disc and giving it to all their friends.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Yes, there's more legitimate copies without DRM but there are also likely to be more sales (the illegitimate users have no excuse not to buy it if they have the means and ways to do so).



Just because they have no excuse doesn't mean they aren't going to pirate the game.  Plenty of people will still pirate the game even if they have the means and ways to do so.  The DRM excuse is, and pretty much always has been, a BS excuse to make the pirates look better to others, but they are still going to be pirates without DRM.



FordGT90Concept said:


> As I stated in the challenge to Ubisoft to release a DRM free SKU of BG&E2, sell two versions of a game at the same time: DRM version for $40 or $50 and DRM-free version for $50-60 more.  Sales for the DRM-free version, despite costing more, is likely to sell considerably better.



That is an idiotic challenge.  If they advertise "Hey, you can copy this and give it to all your friends for just $10 more." Which do you think the consumer will buy?  Yeah...exactly.  I know my friends would buy one copy of the DRM free version and copy it for everyone.  If we all wanted the game, we would all buy the DRM version if that was the only one available.  So with DRM, they get a sale from all of us, without DRM they get one sale and one sale only.  I'd be distributing games to all my friends.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 5, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I know my friends would buy one copy of the DRM free version and copy it for everyone.  If we all wanted the game, we would all buy the DRM version if that was the only one available.  So with DRM, they get a sale from all of us, without DRM they get one sale and one sale only.  I'd be distributing games to all my friends.



so you actually care nothing about paying dues, supporting artists, or it being just as illegal to copy a game WITHOUT drm as one with - DRM is the only thing that stops you from pirating software?  Do you think that's how everyone is?


i don't think that makes much sense.  DRM of all forms has been bypassed, and will continue to be.  it may take a few days but it will happen.  I don't think the real obstacle for people is the DRM, i think it is their ethics.   I believe it matters why someone does something, and that can affect how "wrong" it is.

a teenage kid with no money in highschool and %^&% all to do that downloads a game offline is not the same as an adult with a job and money that CAN afford the software but chooses not to pay for it. 
likewise, a company that adds a simple protection scheme to protect from said casual highschoolers is not the same as a multi-billion dollar corporation that spends as much time and money on DRM as on the product itself.

*compare it this way*, which is my main point:  a greedy multi billion dollar corporation that goes to absurd lengths to secure your own property from yourself, in my book is worse for the world than a poor teenage kid that copies a game from a friend or offline - which when it comes down to it no different than copying a page from a book or recording a tape from the radio.

yes both are in the wrong, but one is much worse than the other. let's keep that in perspective.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 5, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> That is an idiotic challenge.  If they advertise "Hey, you can copy this and give it to all your friends for just $10 more." Which do you think the consumer will buy?  Yeah...exactly.  I know my friends would buy one copy of the DRM free version and copy it for everyone.  If we all wanted the game, we would all buy the DRM version if that was the only one available.  So with DRM, they get a sale from all of us, without DRM they get one sale and one sale only.  I'd be distributing games to all my friends.



Even with DRM it takes them a whole 2 minutes to subvert it anyway ? Ford's idea was quite good imo. I'd rather pay more for a DRM free version. It's a win/win. I'm happy the publisher is happy.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 5, 2010)

digibucc said:


> so you actually care nothing about paying dues, supporting artists, or it being just as illegal to copy a game WITHOUT drm as one with - DRM is the only thing that stops you from pirating software?  Do you think that's how everyone is?



Not everyone, just the very large majority, it is just human nature.  We will not pay for something that we can get for free, or one person can get for free then give it away to everyone else.  Your concept that people have honor is wrong, the only thing that stops most from stealing everything they can carry from stores is the fear of getting caught and going to jail.  If that wasn't there, people would be walking off with things constantly.

Consumers do not have the knowledge to bypass DRM, most don't know how torrents work, and most don't know what sites to use to do so.  A very large number does, but that number is actually small compared tothe number of people that buy and play the games.  That number is also growing, which is why DRM is getting worse.  Again, if DRM was the only thing driving poeple to piracy, World of Goo wouldn't have a 90% piracy rate.\

I'd like to believe that everyone is good and moral, and no one would pirate games if it wasn't for DRM, but I know it simply isn't true.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 5, 2010)

digibucc said:


> so you actually care nothing about paying dues, supporting artists, or it being just as illegal to copy a game WITHOUT drm as one with - DRM is the only thing that stops you from pirating software?  Do you think that's how everyone is?
> 
> 
> i don't think that makes much sense.  DRM of all forms has been bypassed, and will continue to be.  it may take a few days but it will happen.  I don't think the real obstacle for people is the DRM, i think it is their ethics.   I believe it matters why someone does something, and that can affect how "wrong" it is.
> ...



Yes lets keep it in prospective. You NEVER own the game. You buy the right to play it how the OWNER seems fit. Do you think its cheap to make quality game engines? Do you think development software is cheap? No well then how do you think these "greedy" game companies make these game? With pixie dust and what gives YOU or ANYONE the right to take their property?

This isn't food we are talking about. Not water. Not electricity. This is a luxury item and is not needed to survive and theft is wrong no matter who the owner is. THAT is in perspective.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 5, 2010)

as always, totally right mailman.

wrong is wrong is wrong.  the degree and the reasons matter not.  punishment should be swift and severe, with no mercy.

we very obviously disagree on some basic facts of life, rather than the facts of the matter.  i don't see that coming to a resolution.  i don't have much more to say anyway


----------



## F1reFly (Jun 5, 2010)

Has anyone noticed how many pirates actually go through a lot of troubleshooting to get a pirated game to work? If you read comments like on piratebay or forums that allow such talk, people sometimes spend more time getting a hack/crack/cdburn...etc to work than any PC problem i've ever solved. Some are complete noobs and ask stupid questions but it goes to show that DRM itself cannot be the real reason one would pirate. No DRM causes this many problems

I've had DRM issues before on retail games
But in all my cases of PC video game history, i have always gotten them to work and never pirated a single one. If its for sale, i want it, i buy it. simple as that.
If you have to post excuses to justify...then all you did was post an excuse as to why your greedy and cheap.

A huge problem though is Googling. How many times you Google a PC game and the 3rd link is to a torrent. I've crossed many pirating forums and sites just by searching for a patch and is how i realized how many piraters have problems with cracks just like it was DRM...kinda ironic


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 5, 2010)

Stealing isn't bad til you get caught.

Actually I should rephrase that.

"It's not illegal until you get caught doing it"


----------



## lemode (Jun 5, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> Stealing isn't bad til you get caught.



Got to love the morally ambiguous.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Yes, a necessary evil because there is not a better alternative.  No mattter how much you want to think your way of a simple serial is better, it has been proven time and time again to be completely useless, it was one of the earliest forms of DRM, and it failed horribly.


Just try to play Counter-Strike: Source online without a legitimate serial key.  Good luck on that, you'll need it.




newtekie1 said:


> Yep, a service that is listed right in the services list...NOT a rootkit...but nice try...


= malware.  All the same to me.




newtekie1 said:


> I don't believe so, but without knowing the numbers we can't be sure.  I know who can be sure, the publishers, and they seem to think it works...


Then why do they keep changing it?  The figures we do have: 70-90% users are not legitimate copies.  That screams failure.  Instead of looking at it the way I do (they are potential customers, not criminals), they see those numbers as people to extort money from.  There's only two ways to go about that: expensive lawsuits (they don't have the resources to do this in the first place) or DRM.  Most choose DRM but there's a few (like 2D Boy) that sees it from my perspective (figure out what it takes to get these pirates to hand over at least some money).

The difference: DRM guarentees shrinking market due to associated issues.  DRM free causes the market to grow (legitimate and illegitimate alike).





newtekie1 said:


> You mean more DRM/more sales, because obviously the areas with the most DRM, consoles, also has the best sales numbers...


That subject (computer vs console sales/DRM) is way too broad to discuss in this thread.




newtekie1 said:


> Not likely, mainly because the large bulk of the consumers are completely unaware of the DRM in games, and they just don't care.  The sheep will continue to go out to the stores and buy the games, the small few that oppose DRM, and don't buy the game because of it, won't make a dent in sales numbers, and those numbers will likely be made up by the number of people that are stopped from just copying the disc and giving it to all their friends.


I wouldn't be so certain.  DRM is pretty common knowledge these days.  Anyone who ever touched a computer has probably been stonewalled by some form of DRM at least once (music, documents, films, games, etc.).  Anyone who ever tried to run a game with DRM without the disk in over the last 12 or so years has been confronted by DRM.




newtekie1 said:


> Just because they have no excuse doesn't mean they aren't going to pirate the game.  Plenty of people will still pirate the game even if they have the means and ways to do so.  The DRM excuse is, and pretty much always has been, a BS excuse to make the pirates look better to others, but they are still going to be pirates without DRM.


Because they have zero confidence in the game industry.  They've been cheated out of hard earned money too many times.  Basically, you're never going to see a cent out of them so ignore them.  If they decide to start paying for games again in the future, good for you.  Just don't count on it.





newtekie1 said:


> That is an idiotic challenge.  If they advertise "Hey, you can copy this and give it to all your friends for just $10 more." Which do you think the consumer will buy?  Yeah...exactly.  I know my friends would buy one copy of the DRM free version and copy it for everyone.  If we all wanted the game, we would all buy the DRM version if that was the only one available.  So with DRM, they get a sale from all of us, without DRM they get one sale and one sale only.  I'd be distributing games to all my friends.


They make 17% more per copy.  I bet they'd get a lot more money off the game than they would had there only been a DRM version.  Profits are all that matter to them.  Example:

DRM: 1,000,000 copies sold at $50 with gross of $50,000,000; 9,000,000 illegitimate installs.
DRM Free: 900,000 copies sold at $60 with gross of $54,000,000; 15,000,000 illegitimate installs.

DRM free wins.  There's less sales because of the increased price but they still gross more. Additionally, there's a bigger pool of people who have played the game so you are more likely to see even more buyers when the game hits the bargain bin.  Again, they only care about the money.




newtekie1 said:


> Not everyone, just the very large majority, it is just human nature.  We will not pay for something that we can get for free, or one person can get for free then give it away to everyone else.  Your concept that people have honor is wrong, the only thing that stops most from stealing everything they can carry from stores is the fear of getting caught and going to jail.  If that wasn't there, people would be walking off with things constantly.


I have to disagree.  Most people don't like using something they didn't purchase because they know it is wrong.  I'd place the number that have absolutely no morale compass at less than 15%.  Yes, they are the sort that would steal in general (stores, family, friends, etc.).


Edited to add:


newtekie1 said:


> Consumers do not have the knowledge to bypass DRM, most don't know how torrents work, and most don't know what sites to use to do so.  A very large number does, but that number is actually small compared tothe number of people that buy and play the games.  That number is also growing, which is why DRM is getting worse.  Again, if DRM was the only thing driving poeple to piracy, World of Goo wouldn't have a 90% piracy rate.


If you know your way around My Computer and the Internet, you can bypss the DRM.  A fifth grader could do it given enough incentive.


As for the 90% figure, read what they said about it.  I own World of Goo via WiiWare and have never submitted a score.

Note the text that they bolded:


> ...preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale.  This supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren’t people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying.
> 
> ...ricochet shipped *with DRM*, world of goo shipped *without it*, and there seems to be *no difference in the outcomes*.



Conclusion: that 90% is universal.  Fight it, you lose.  Don't fight it, you lose (but not as bad thanks to excluding the cost of DRM).


You know we are never going to agree on any of this.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

i hate the pirates and corporations equally. however, i choose to support the corporations since they are the ones developing and publishing the games that i enjoy.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i hate the pirates and corporations equally. however, i choose to support the corporations since they are the ones developing and publishing the games that i enjoy.



I've began to feel that games have went from being made by guys who love doing what they do to the guys in suits running the show and making the game as a money milking machine and it doesn't feel like it's got the same care and attention as it should.


----------



## lemode (Jun 6, 2010)

I am 100% against piracy period. 

Back in the day when Napster first came around my friends did not understand that what they were doing was brazen theft. I had one friend who downloaded basically every album he had ever wanted and didn’t even stop to think that he was hurting that very artist he loved listening to. If you added the total of what he downloaded…it would probably be around $9,000 going by standard retail prices of 1999-2000. I was (and still am) am a struggling musician as is. I don’t need some pud-whacker with a pizza face downloading my music without even the common courtesy of a reach around before taking it from me.

Bottom line, there will always be a way to steal stuff. However that is how humans are…the who gives a sh*t factor that is inherent in most of us. Now the realization and not caring that you’re only hurting the people who make these games, software, music, etc when you download them anonymously on the internet…that is your deal. My philosophy is regardless of how much stuff costs….get your dumb ass an education and job so you have money in your pocket so you can afford to pay for these things you so freely take off the net. If you can’t afford them on your salary right away…save the fu*k up! That's all I have to say on this subject.


----------



## Stak (Jun 6, 2010)

noob question!!!! whats DRM and Always on DRM?


----------



## Mr McC (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i hate the pirates and corporations equally. however, i choose to support the corporations since they are the ones developing and publishing the games that i enjoy.





DrPepper said:


> I've began to feel that games have went from being made by guys who love doing what they do to the guys in suits running the show and making the game as a money milking machine and it doesn't feel like it's got the same care and attention as it should.



Games have become like Hollywood blockbusters: variations on a very  limited number of formulae. Innovation is stifled as it entails risk; however, as in the case of DRM, a large portion of responsibility lies with the consumer as they can only sell what we are willing to buy.



Stak said:


> noob question!!!! whats DRM and Always on DRM?



DRM = Digital Rights Management, various methods of security, which, according to the companies that employ them, are aimed at preventing piracy; however, such methods (disk checks, security codes, online registration, etc) prove hopelessly incapable of preventing piracy and are actually intended to control the second-hand market by preventing you from selling games you have purchased. Most DRM entails relinquishing your right to sell your games whereby you become a leasee rather than an owner.

Always on DRM refers to a variation of the habitual on-line registration: in this case you must have a constant Internet connection whilst playing the game. This method has recently been introduced by Ubisoft and others are following suit. Many people who purchased Ubisoft titles have been unable to play their games due to server issues, but Ubisoft's "always on" DRM, like all preceding incarnations of DRM, has been cracked and pirates are not faced with the same headaches as paying clients.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

lemode said:


> I am 100% against piracy period.
> 
> Back in the day when Napster first came around my friends did not understand that what they were doing was brazen theft. I had one friend who downloaded basically every album he had ever wanted and didn’t even stop to think that he was hurting that very artist he loved listening to. If you added the total of what he downloaded…it would probably be around $9,000 going by standard retail prices of 1999-2000. I was (and still am) am a struggling musician as is. I don’t need some pud-whacker with a pizza face downloading my music without even the common courtesy of a reach around before taking it from me.
> 
> Bottom line, there will always be a way to steal stuff. However that is how humans are…the who gives a sh*t factor that is inherent in most of us. Now the realization and not caring that you’re only hurting the people who make these games, software, music, etc when you download them anonymously on the internet…that is your deal. My philosophy is regardless of how much stuff costs….get your dumb ass an education and job so you have money in your pocket so you can afford to pay for these things you so freely take off the net. If you can’t afford them on your salary right away…save the fu*k up! That's all I have to say on this subject.



have you never taped a song off the radio? you have never recorded a movie onto vhs off the tv?  it is very essentially the same exact thing.  the only differing factor would be ease and quantity... and possibly time of release.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> have you never taped a song off the radio? you have never recorded a movie onto vhs off the tv?  it is very essentially the same exact thing.  the only differing factor would be ease and quantity... and possibly time of release.



I'l expand on that. You can watch pretty much everything on youtube now. All the music you like and tv shows you like (some of them)


----------



## F1reFly (Jun 6, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> I've began to feel that games have went from being made by guys who love doing what they do to the guys in suits running the show and making the game as a money milking machine and it doesn't feel like it's got the same care and attention as it should.



well when you risk investing anywhere from 30 to 100 million freaking dollars on a video game, one that has very high competition to deal with, i'd say mr. obvious has an answer for ya. Usually why sequals usually get better, puts more care into it as the risk lowers, especially if in high demand but mistakes on sequals happen on occasion.
Also gamers are not exactly any less picky than they were a decade ago. 
Consumers these days are like the Blob, more it eats, bigger it grows, the more it has to eat. Even internet infrastructure can't grow as fast as consumers are consuming....Mmoooaaaarrrrr


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 6, 2010)

F1reFly said:


> well when you risk investing anywhere from 30 to 100 million freaking dollars on a video game, one that has very high competition to deal with, i'd say mr. obvious has an answer for ya. Usually why sequals usually get better, especially if in high demand but mistakes on sequals happen on occasion.
> Also gamers are not exactly any less picky than they were a decade ago.
> Consumers these days are like the Blob, more it eats, bigger it grows, the more it has to eat. Even internet infrastructure can't grow as fast as consumers are consuming....Mmoooaaaarrrrr



If I was investing 30 million on something I'd make sure it wasn't shite and half arsed. If they let the developers realise their dreams then games would be of better quality. Valve for example are THE best developer and publisher. They're staff all contribute to making a game, they also have sound testing before a game is released and they interact with the community.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

F1reFly said:


> well when you risk investing anywhere from 30 to 100 million freaking dollars on a video game, one that has very high competition to deal with, i'd say mr. obvious has an answer for ya. Usually why sequals usually get better, puts more care into it as the risk lowers, especially if in high demand but mistakes on sequals happen on occasion.
> Also gamers are not exactly any less picky than they were a decade ago.
> Consumers these days are like the Blob, more it eats, bigger it grows, the more it has to eat. Even internet infrastructure can't grow as fast as consumers are consuming....Mmoooaaaarrrrr



see but when there are blockbuster companies to choose from - and there are those that do it right and make MOAR MONEY than the corporate greed machines.
ie blizzard/bethsoft/valve vs ubi/ea

your argument kinda goes down the crapper when beth/bliz/valve which are better than any outfit out there (only bioware compares) - make the best games with the least obtrusive drm and make a crap load of money off it.  *then you get your ubis and eas recycling the same crappy IP year after year, charging full price for a rehashed update - and they are the ones so worried about "protecting their precious ip"  screw em, it's crap and they can have it.*

that's the difference between a real game company and a greedy corporation.  and the greedy corporations are the ones using piracy as a scapegoat to make record profits and rip us all off.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> that's the difference between a real game company and a greedy corporation.  and the greedy corporations are the ones using piracy as a scapegoat to make record profits and rip us all off.



i think this is where we part ways. i am more inclined to believe that large game publishers have to play "cover our ass" because of how insane the game market is. you have 3 very popular consoles and a PC market that seems to shift trends on a dime. if i were an executive at one of these companies i would indeed be putting every measure into place to protect my product so that my investors would feel better about giving me those millions of dollars. even if that means pissing some off because of the policies i was using. obviously the ROI calculations done by the accounting department show that it is worth it. until that proves false you wont see much change in policy.


----------



## F1reFly (Jun 6, 2010)

Ubi/EA puts out more games/risks. Blizzard/Beth found their bread and butter years ago and stick with it. How often does Valve release new and different titles per year that are not sequals?

How about you look up games released this year from all the non greedy companies and see how many titles gamers have to play. i'd bet we'd all played them and be bored by now...well WOW cataclysm would still go on.
But no Crysis, No Alan Wake, no Halo's..etc

you speak as if huge corps never put out good games. sales are what defines a good title, they just put out  a lot of games, some of which fail. they take more risks cause they can.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i think this is where we part ways. i am more inclined to believe that large game publishers have to play "cover our ass" because of how insane the game market is. you have 3 very popular consoles and a PC market that seems to shift trends on a dime. if i were an executive at one of these companies i would indeed be putting every measure into place to protect my product so that my investors would feel better about giving me those millions of dollars. even if that means pissing some off because of the policies i was using. obviously the ROI calculations done by the accounting department show that it is worth it. until that proves false you wont see much change in policy.



and if those same publishers were making decisions to make a quality game worth the price they charge rather than a quick as possible get it out the door job, i'd agree.

i see the devs and the publishers as separate.  it's this retarded economic system that keeps them in play - but digital distribution can change that and put the devs - the good guys - in control.

you're basically saying these greedy corporations which cause the most problems , interfere with the development and vision of what could have been a great game, and then slap the most obtrusive drm available on it are just in a tough spot, and we should go easy on them.

screw that.  a good dev can make the cash based on the merit of their products.  only a crappy greedy company needs to worry about investment from advertisers and movie studios to get their next pre-processed piece of crap out the door. edit: im sorry , that's a little short sighted.  obviously all games will need investors but games of quality and devs that are known to produce them will have a better time getting investment without sacrificing the end product.

seriously, blizz/beth/valve vs ubi/ea.  there are very stark differences and they are highlighted by the developer having control vs greedy corporate pigs.

no f1refly i recognize ea and ubi have had some good games - but when crap begins to outweigh the good, they charge more as the games get shorter and dumber , AND they want to take control of my computer away from me i have to say oh well - i can live without mass effect and ...  well the rest have turned to shit lately, so mass effect.


----------



## F1reFly (Jun 6, 2010)

^then why are you not CEO of EA. sounds like you could start your own publishing company and make all the gamers happy. otherwise this does nothing to change reality, its just typical complaining and doing nothing.


----------



## AsRock (Jun 6, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I back DRM to an extent. Its needed. No doubt. However some DRM goes WAY beyond being productive and is actually hurting the developer.



Well it cannot be all good as you know. Out of the 3+ games i would of got this year though UBI i only got one due to their new DRM so i gotta say it's hurting them but to say if it's hurting more than there other DRM measures i cannot say although i would of had 3+ new UBI games this year and not just one.


AC2 and SH5 i would of got them both without even thinking about it if  the drm BS was not there.  Don't know why the fck i should have to be online to play a sp game and want to be able play it when i want.

The game i did get was the new anno with addon which has the drm but you can make offline profiles too so being online don't seem to be a requirement.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

F1reFly said:


> ^then why are you not CEO of EA. sounds like you could start your own publishing company and make all the gamers happy. otherwise this does nothing to change reality, its just typical complaining and doing nothing.



i don't really see how i suggested i could make a game or run a company.  but if you think you need a business degree to see that a greedy company buying up small talented devs is a bad thing for game development.  it may be good for the devs - they get rich and the good life, all the more power to them - but it's not good for anyone who actually cares about the quality of game on the market.



AsRock said:


> AC2 and SH5 i would of got them both without even thinking about it if  the drm BS was not there.  Don't know why the fck i should have to be online to play a sp game and want to be able play it when i want.



me too, exactly.   i got settlers 7 and not only was it so ridiculously horrible - but i couldn't play for more than a few minutes, in single player - before it kicking because my internet connection dropped.  ubi rage starts in 5...4...3...2..


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

what i am saying is that i am not an executive, i am not aware of all the market place stats they are and i give them the benefit of the doubt because they exist to make money off of games they sell to us. pirates literally give us nothing. if nobody bought games then games would not exist. therefore reality says that there has to be some sort of investment backing into developers and publishers.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i give them the benefit of the doubt because they exist to make money off *(...)* us.



you are a more trusting man than i.

seriously i think that has a lot to do with it.  i am pretty untrusting of large corporations that use vague numbers to push their agenda , while not inspiring full confidence in other areas (such as the actual development of a game).  In no way do i think all companies are bad, not even most.  the majority are good and useful, but it's not entirely unheard of for a company to use shady means to rip off consumers, because they have a lock on the market (in that there are no real statistics for piracy - yet they can use it to raise prices, make resale difficult, and make it impossible to return a piece of crap game after it's opened) . i think that's what ubi/ea/etc are trying to do.

and as i said before - every industry has theft and loss to deal with.  what other industry goes to such insane lengths to do that? should paintings start coming with special glasses and dna encryption - so art thieves can't make any use of them after it's stolen?  that's at least physical property, and someone actually loses something!



lemode said:


> I was (and still am) am a struggling musician as is



another hypothetical ( i love em  ) extends on my earlier point...
as an artist you want to gain fans , who pay to come to your shows and buy your albums when they come out.  what if your biggest fan, who has bought all of your albums and paid for every show , found you via a pirated copy?  you never would have had them if not - and then say it's not one fan, but 100.  then what do you think about it?

i'm not in anyway trying to justify it - i just tend to play devils advocate and have to wonder if that changes your strict stance.  piracy is 100% wrong, but what if your fans pirating you actually worked out to your advantage?  forget what you actually think of the act of them pirating - would you rather they never did it and never found you at all?

and uh, this very obviously isn't all that hypothetical.  i book bands and run concerts as part of my job and can honestly say i have given people $15k to play at a show after i heard "an unofficial" copy of their music.


----------



## AsRock (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> me too, exactly.   i got settlers 7 and not only was it so ridiculously horrible - but i couldn't play for more than a few minutes, in single player - before it kicking because my internet connection dropped.  ubi rage starts in 5...4...3...2..



Dayum, only had the inconvenience once upto now ( 1 week  ). I'm all so thinking that the people who don't buy their games and pirate them have been a ok and just buyers have been it as they don't tend to know or have cracked their game.  Hey maybe you should chack ya game lol.

I just don't see how this stops pirating games as the ones who do know were to get the cracks from anyways which don't take long anyways.

And it cost so much to put DRM in a game too and no pirate going pay for that just us..


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> you are a more trusting man than i.
> 
> seriously i think that has a lot to do with it.  i am pretty untrusting of large corporations that use vague numbers to push their agenda , while not inspiring full confidence in other areas (such as the actual development of a game).  In no way do i think all companies are bad, not even most.  the majority are good and useful, but it's not entirely unheard of for a company to use shady means to rip off consumers, because they have a lock on the market (in that there are no real statistics for piracy - yet they can use it to raise prices, make resale difficult, and make it impossible to return a piece of crap game after it's opened) . i think that's what ubi/ea/etc are trying to do.
> 
> and as i said before - every industry has theft and loss to deal with.  what other industry goes to such insane lengths to do that? should paintings start coming with special glasses and dna encryption - so art thieves can't make any use of them after it's stolen?  that's at least physical property, and someone actually loses something!



there lengths may not seem proper to you or i but again we are not management or executives in those businesses. we are not privy to the statistics they are on a daily basis. i am inclined to side with those that create games regardless of the price they sell them for over the pirates who either are simply to cheap to pay for the game or seek some sort of twisted retribution from the companies who want to make a profit.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Just try to play Counter-Strike: Source online without a legitimate serial key.  Good luck on that, you'll need it.



Once again, your scheme does not help offline games one bit, so it does not work.  In fact I can fire up my downloaded copy of Counter-Strike: Source right now, play it offline or even on a LAN without problem.  Schemes like SecuROM work with both online and offline games, your idea only marginally works with online games.




FordGT90Concept said:


> = malware.  All the same to me.



Just becuase you don't like it, that doesn't make it malware.  It is not malicious, so it is not malware.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Then why do they keep changing it?  The figures we do have: 70-90% users are not legitimate copies.  That screams failure.  Instead of looking at it the way I do (they are potential customers, not criminals), they see those numbers as people to extort money from.  There's only two ways to go about that: expensive lawsuits (they don't have the resources to do this in the first place) or DRM.  Most choose DRM but there's a few (like 2D Boy) that sees it from my perspective (figure out what it takes to get these pirates to hand over at least some money).
> 
> The difference: DRM guarentees shrinking market due to associated issues.  DRM free causes the market to grow (legitimate and illegitimate alike).



I disagree.  As I've already explained.  The small dent that DRM will cause to not buy the game will be completely swallowed by the number of people that will buy the game instead of just burning a copy off their buddy.




FordGT90Concept said:


> That subject (computer vs console sales/DRM) is way too broad to discuss in this thread.



Because it proves my point that DRM, when implemented properly, works?



FordGT90Concept said:


> I wouldn't be so certain.  DRM is pretty common knowledge these days.  Anyone who ever touched a computer has probably been stonewalled by some form of DRM at least once (music, documents, films, games, etc.).  Anyone who ever tried to run a game with DRM without the disk in over the last 12 or so years has been confronted by DRM.



Your right in that they've all seen that message, but I believe you are wrong in assuming they care to even bother to look further into it other than putting the disc in the drive.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Because they have zero confidence in the game industry.  They've been cheated out of hard earned money too many times.  Basically, you're never going to see a cent out of them so ignore them.  If they decide to start paying for games again in the future, good for you.  Just don't count on it.



Not really, people don't pirate because the game has DRM, as I already said in this thread, the whole "I'm going to pirate it because it has DRM" is not only the most BS excuse I've heard for piracy, it also is never true.  People pirate because given the option to get something for free or pay for it, most people will always pick free, even if it is illegal as long as they know there is virtually no chance of getting caught.  That is why we see 90% piracy rates on cheap games with no DRM.  If your theory about people was correct, that number would be much lower.  When confronted with the option to "pay $20 for the game legit", or "get it for free illegally", 90% of people picked "get it for free illegally".  How do you explain that?  If everyone was pirating because of DRM, how do you explain a 90% piracy rate on DRM free games?




FordGT90Concept said:


> They make 17% more per copy.  I bet they'd get a lot more money off the game than they would had there only been a DRM version.  Profits are all that matter to them.  Example:
> 
> DRM: 1,000,000 copies sold at $50 with gross of $50,000,000; 9,000,000 illegitimate installs.
> DRM Free: 900,000 copies sold at $60 with gross of $54,000,000; 15,000,000 illegitimate installs.
> ...



You really think the sales numbers would be that high?  DRM free games can't even break better then 10% legitimate sales already.  However, I know MW2 has less then a 50% piracy rate using basic Steam based DRM(4.1M Downloads by the end of 09 vs. 4.7M units sold in the first 5 days).  So lets use those numbers:

DRM: 1,000,000 copies sold at $50 with a gross of $50,000,000; 1,000,000 illegitimate installs.
DRM Free: 200,000 copies sold at $50 with a gross of $10,000,000; 1,800,000 illegitimate installs.

Yeah, but you keep believing DRM Free wins.



FordGT90Concept said:


> I have to disagree.  Most people don't like using something they didn't purchase because they know it is wrong.  I'd place the number that have absolutely no morale compass at less than 15%.  Yes, they are the sort that would steal in general (stores, family, friends, etc.).



Saddly, the studies don't back your opinion, they back mine.  Again, 90% of the people playing World of Goo don't seem to have a problem playing it, even knowing it is wrong.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Edited to add:
> 
> If you know your way around My Computer and the Internet, you can bypss the DRM.  A fifth grader could do it given enough incentive.



That is specifically why I said the number of people with the knowledge is growing, and why DRM is becoming worse.



FordGT90Concept said:


> As for the 90% figure, read what they said about it.  I own World of Goo via WiiWare and have never submitted a score.
> 
> Note the text that they bolded:
> 
> ...



Only problem with that, Ricochet Infinity doesn't actually use any DRM.

And I downloaded World of Goo illegally, and never submitted a score, passed it on to all of my friends too, and they never submitted scores either...I did eventually pay $1 for it when they offered the pay anything you want, simply because it was a good game and I thought they deserved it, but I know not a single one of my friends paid a penny for it.

Despite my argument for DRM, as I've already said in this thread, I pirate every game I play, I only pay for the good ones that I really play.



FordGT90Concept said:


> You know we are never going to agree on any of this.



Yeah...lets just call it a draw and move on.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> there lengths may not seem proper to you or i but again we are not management or executives in those businesses. we are not privy to the statistics they are on a daily basis. i am inclined to side with those that create games regardless of the price they sell them for over the pirates who either are simply to cheap to pay for the game or seek some sort of twisted retribution from the companies who want to make a profit.



i truly don't see myself as "siding with the pirates".  I play devils advocate and like to explore all parts of a situation.  I don't see it as a "one or the other" thing, but rather "a bit of both"

obviously pirates are bad in any sense of the word. but why is it so impossible for people to separate what they do from the corporate greed? they can both be bad things at the same time! that is the only thing i have been trying to say since the beginning...


digibucc said:


> *I think my point is there is a lot of gray area, there are a lot of variables.  there are a lot of very specific, very important pieces of information that are impossible for us to know.  so in recognizing that, taking any kind of a hard stance is ridiculous.  yes pirates are bad - but what the companies are doing is bad too!  so because there are people out there that pirate - you defend and think it is ok for corporations o go as far as they do? that's insanity!  just because there is a cause doesn't mean the effect is justified.*


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> i truly don't see myself as "siding with the pirates".  I play devils advocate and like to explore all parts of a situation.  I don't see it as a "one or the other" thing, but rather "a bit of both"
> 
> obviously pirates are bad in any sense of the word. but why is it so impossible for people to separate what they do from the corporate greed? they can both be bad things at the same time! that is the only thing i have been trying to say since the beginning...



my point is that corporate greed is relative. some people think that any sort of profit is considered greedy while others like myself really dont see profit in any case as greedy. the point of corporations is to make profits, regardless of how much and to take whatever means necessary in doing so. the consumer will dictate the terms in the end.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> my point is that corporate greed is relative. some people think that any sort of profit is considered greedy while others like myself really dont see profit in any case as greedy. the point of corporations is to make profits, regardless of how much and to take whatever means necessary in doing so. the consumer will dictate the terms in the end.



from a capitalist/realist mindset ok, i get it.

but does right and wrong not factor in for you anywhere?

regardless of how much profit and taking whatever means necessary to do so? you actually mean that? that is nuts.
a company that makes guns can rightly start a war to sell more?  that fits within your description...

it is entirely false that consumers dictate terms.  that is a line of bull we have been fed to feel better about spending our lives working in order to spend the money we make on crap.  we get limited choices and if we don't like them, screw us.  where have we dictated anything?  we either buy what they give us or we get nothing.  there is no power for consumers.


and yeah - good vs bad profit is another case where people go black and white, which is insanity.  of course not all profit is bad, it is necessary. but of course there is such a thing as bad profit.  is a drug dealer's profit just as legitimate as a medicine lab's?  of course not!  unmonitored unregulated capitalism is not a good thing, in any sector of the market.  "relative" makes it sound as though there is no tipping point, and i say there very definitely is - even if we don't all agree on where that point is.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> from a capitalist/realist mindset ok, i get it.
> 
> but does right and wrong not factor in for you anywhere?
> 
> ...



well of course consumers dictate the terms. without consumers there would be no demand and therefore no supply.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> well of course consumers dictate the terms. without consumers there would be no demand and therefore no supply.



you're right, we can just choose not to eat, drink, etc.  or rather - growing our own food is a viable option.  we don't ultimately have to make a choice between what they offer us, whatever we say goes.  sry for so much sarcasm - but get my point?  there is always a demand, the only variable is where it gets placed.  when there are only so many options for where to place the demand , it pretty easily turns into a manipulation of consumers and a stripping of any conceived power they might have had.

now i could choose not play any games at all - but there are those from the companies i mentioned that are worthwhile.  so i just don't buy the games from those other companies.  but 80% of the people who buy games are stupid kids who have no idea (even less than us) of the corporate politics and DRM statistics etc, they just buy crap they were advertised because they are too stupid to know better. therefore my thought out "voice" as a consumer means nothing compared to the mindless masses.  that is the market working successfully for consumers? that weeds out immoral or unethical business practices? I think they thrive in that kind of environment.

we're consumers, that's what we do.  the demand is guaranteed.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> you're right, we can just choose not to eat, drink, etc.  or rather - growing our own food is a viable option.  we don't ultimately have to make a choice between what they offer us, whatever we say goes.  sry for so much sarcasm - but get my point?  there is always a demand, the only variable is where it gets placed.  when there are only so many options for where to place the demand , it pretty easily turns into a manipulation of consumers and a stripping of any conceived power they might have had.



you are simply playing the victim. you act as if you are helpless and you have a right to whatever other people create simply because you choose not to put forth an effort to retrieve it for yourself. 



> now i could choose not play any games at all - but there are those from the companies i mentioned that are worthwhile.  so i just don't buy the games from those other companies.  but 80% of the people who buy games are stupid kids who have no idea (even less than us) of the corporate politics and DRM statistics etc, they just buy crap they were advertised because they are too stupid to know better. therefore my thought out "voice" as a consumer means nothing compared to the mindless masses.  that is the market working successfully for consumers? that weeds out immoral or unethical business practices? I think they thrive in that kind of environment.



simply because you believe 80% of the people who buy games are stupid does not prove any sort of point. you certainly cannot prove you are a more intelligent consumer than those people based on the criteria you create for yourself. some people simply do not care if the games they buy have drm. it is not a big deal to them in the least. in reality, you are forcing them to believe in a cause you are willing to champion simply because in your perception it effects you.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> simply because you believe 80% of the people who buy games are stupid does not prove any sort of point. you certainly cannot prove you are a more intelligent consumer than those people based on the criteria you create for yourself. some people simply do not care if the games they buy have drm. it is not a big deal to them in the least. in reality, you are forcing them to believe in a cause you are willing to champion simply because in your perception it effects you.



im sorry - was talking more about "crap" games than anything to do with drm there. my bad.  I don't expect people who don't care about drm to start caring - that was a mistake to type.  but when a company can release a piece of crap and a million kids go buy it - that company is a success even with a crappy product.  sales in no way determines quality or worth.



Easy Rhino said:


> you are simply playing the victim. you act as if you are helpless and you have a right to whatever other people create simply because you choose not to put forth an effort to retrieve it for yourself.


i don't feel like or claim to be any kind of victim.  i think of myself as more of a realist and that's just the way it is.  it just seems obvious that choices are limited, therefore you don't actually determine anything.  you choose from what is offered to you.  i just see it as that's the way it is. im not "helpless".  if i were to not do my job or save for a house or food i could create my wildest desires eventually. i hope.  but i don't see that as a viable option, so i am back to the choices available to me.

now how in the hell is that playing victim? and what do you mean by "have a right to what other people create"?


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> im sorry - was talking more about "crap" games than anything to do with drm there. my bad.  I don't expect people who don't care about drm to start caring - that was a mistake to type.  but when a company can release a piece of crap and a million kids go buy it - that company is a success even with a crappy product.  sales in no way determines quality or worth.



so you are the final say in what is a crappy game? 




> i don't feel like or claim to be any kind of victim.  i think of myself as more of a realist and that's just the way it is.  it just seems obvious that choices are limited, therefore you don't actually determine anything.  you choose from what is offered to you.  i just see it as that's the way it is. im not "helpless".  if i were to not do my job or save for a house or food i could create my wildest desires eventually. i hope.  but i don't see that as a viable option, so i am back to the choices available to me.
> 
> now how in the hell is that playing victim?



i don't want to lose my M:TW partner  have you ever thought of yourself as a creator of supply rather than a consumer of supply? why does it have to be creators versus consumers? it simplifies the situation. consumers will not always be JUST consumers and creators will not always be JUST creators. this is medieval thinking where society is broken down into royalty and serfs and nothing would ever change.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jun 6, 2010)

The more Publishers try to push DRM, the harder Pirates Fight back and the more the average joe suffers until they join the Pirates by finding DRM free stuff or patches that removes all DRM techniques.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> so you are the final say in what is a crappy game?


now i'm all for individual opinions, and im not saying there is a rigid static measurement of a games quality.  but the very obvious trends of games getting shorter, dumber, and generally "crappier" can not be denied. you yourself have mentioned it!  just because a bunch of 12 year olds have their parents buy it does not make it a good game.

and i am sure at times i am in that group of idiots. buying a crappy product without doing research and knowing it's not worth my money.  that's why movie covers are getting more exciting than the movies and the same with games.  trailers show the best part.  advertising is designed to make you make stupid choices, so they can worry less about making a quality product.




Easy Rhino said:


> i don't want to lose my M:TW partner  have you ever thought of yourself as a creator of supply rather than a consumer of supply? why does it have to be creators versus consumers? it simplifies the situation. consumers will not always be JUST consumers and creators will not always be JUST creators. this is medieval thinking where society is broken down into royalty and serfs and nothing would ever change.



no it's not like that  i did take offense but just because it caught me so off guard.  nothing serious 

but you make it sound as though everyone has a hidden artist in them - which i think is a little ... hopeful.  yeah we all have our value but to pretend we are all capable of creating masterpieces is outlandish.   

and i don't see it as creators vs consumers at all.  i see it as some creators start business and sell what they do well and all is good.

and then some people have tons of money and they buy other people's business, don't really know or care how to run it, make sub-par products with the only goal to maximize profit to make even more money. money money money.

and yes, they have all the right to do that.  but i don't have to think they are any kind of a decent person having done so. in fact, i think that kind of greed is morally worse than some poor kid who wanted to play a video game but couldn't afford it, so he downloaded it.  yes the kid was wrong, of course. but i still think greedy bastards are worse.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> now i'm all for individual opinions, and im not saying there is a rigid static measurement of a games quality.  but the very obvious trends of games getting shorter, dumber, and generally "crappier" can not be denied. you yourself have mentioned it!  just because a bunch of 12 year olds have their parents buy it does not make it a good game.
> 
> and i am sure at times i am in that group of idiots. buying a crappy product without doing research and knowing it's not worth my money.  that's why movie covers are getting more exciting than the movies and the same with games.  trailers show the best part.  advertising is designed to make you make stupid choices, so they can worry less about making a quality product.



well i certainly agree that sales numbers do not translate to a high quality game. perhaps this is a good opportunity to describe what exactly IS a high quality game. what are the characteristics of a high quality game? 




> but you make it sound as though everyone has a hidden artist in them - which i think is a little ... hopeful.



that pretty much captures my worldview. everyone has the capacity to create however the realization is either never self realized or is oppressed by some sort of oligarchy. thanks to unnecessary government intrusion in our lives we have adopted an entitlement mindset where those who we view as superior to ourselves are slaves to our perceived needs.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> well i certainly agree that sales numbers do not translate to a high quality game. perhaps this is a good opportunity to describe what exactly IS a high quality game. what are the characteristics of a high quality game?


yeah i can't do that.  not that i don't think it can be described, im just not the person to ask.  i can't put it into words, it's just too obvious when you see high quality production, and then you see jaggy crappy production.  jittery movement, bad pathfinding, bad ai. bad story.  so the reverse of that makes a good game maybe?




Easy Rhino said:


> that pretty much captures my worldview. everyone has the capacity to create however the realization is either never self realized


i agree with that.  at birth and young childhood.  but we live in a crappy world. kids dont go to school.  entire nations are too poor to feed their citizens.  it's nothing to do with their worldview - they just cannot possibly make it happen, without a "miracle"



Easy Rhino said:


> or is oppressed by some sort of oligarchy.
> thanks to unnecessary government intrusion in our lives we have adopted an entitlement mindset where those who we view as superior to ourselves are slaves to our perceived needs.



see that i don't believe. and i really don't see how anything i said fits this? but:  the government is a pain in the ass and should be as small as possible. stay out of my way and let me fulfill my own needs.  but do i want to run a farm to get my own food? do i want to learn guitar to play my own music? do i want to learn how to make a video game? or make a movie? no, i don't.  if i had started at a young age at any of those individual things, i could be great now and do it for myself and others. but you can't do everything for yourself, you eventually need to rely on others.

not entitlement, necessity.

edit:actually i do want to grow all my own food, but that's a few years coming


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> yeah i can't do that.  not that i don't think it can be described, im just not the person to ask.  i can't put it into words, it's just too obvious when you see high quality production, and then you see jaggy crappy production.  jittery movement, bad pathfinding, bad ai. bad story.  so the reverse of that makes a good game maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you do need to rely on others. adam smith popularized the idea as the division of labor. the line however is drawn when you tell other people in your society that their skills and labor are actually owned by the collective. necessity can be argued all day long. all i can say is that those people who choose to steal from the producers rather than create for themselves are immoral and no amount of theft will justify their actions against the producers regardless of the means used.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> you do need to rely on others. adam smith popularized the idea as the division of labor. the line however is drawn when you tell other people in your society that their skills and labor are actually owned by the collective. necessity can be argued all day long. all i can say is that those people who choose to steal from the producers rather than create for themselves are immoral and no amount of theft will justify their actions against the producers regardless of the means used.



so you mean create their own cash flow to pay for it, not create it themselves.  that makes more sense  lol

but as i said before, i am not trying to justify anything.  i am just making the point that ubisoft is not necessarily the "good guy" in the situation.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> so you mean create their own cash flow to pay for it, not create it themselves.  that makes more sense  lol
> 
> but as i said before, i am not trying to justify anything.  i am just making the point that ubisoft is not necessarily the "good guy" in the situation.



ubisoft can take a flying leap.

even if consumers have endless cash there still will be people who choose to steal the game rather than pay for it. here in lies the main problem.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> ubisoft can take a flying leap.
> 
> even if consumers have endless cash there still will be people who choose to steal the game rather than pay for it. here in lies the main problem.



yeah, those are scumbags.
thing is i consider what record executives do, to be stealing from the producers.  they create an environment where they are necessary, and then take 90% of the profits from what the artists create.  and i think game companies like ubisoft are trying to do the same thing by buying established ips or companies and pumping out a new rehash every year, lower quality every year.  the devs make a fraction and do all the work, and the greedy corporate bastards (ubi) muck up their vision, disturb their process, turn a good game to shit and then strap drm on it.

it's not the drm itself that gets me so much, it's just like a spit in the eye as ubi reaches for my cash. it's just insulting from them.  if bethesda were to do the same thing i would have much less of an issue.  heck valve is steam and i like that.

anyway, bedtime. good chat  
soviet - answer me! (previous page, 2 qs...)


----------



## lemode (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> have you never taped a song off the radio?.



Never have...any blank tapes I ever owned were used to aid in recording piano playing jam sessions, scratching my dads old technics belt drive turntable, then later recording my own dj jam sessions.



digibucc said:


> you have never recorded a movie onto vhs off the tv?



Growing up I only watched Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory, Blazing Saddles, Young Frankenstein, the Back to the Future trilogy, Indiana Jones, and the Star Wars Trilogy…all of which were purchased on VHS by my parents. I am not a big fan of TV period. Now a days with products like TiVO (could be a grey area because you have to buy it separate) & built in DVR…I do not classify built in DVR as theft because DVR is included basically when you get cable service and its sole purpose is to record while you’re not at your TV. I hardly watch Cable television as is & only maintain my basic cable because I have an HDTV…two big wastes that I am sure to get rid of eventually. However sometimes I like to see what something is and I will delete it the second I am done watching it…it doesn’t sit on my drive wasting space.

Not everyone has the same lax attitude towards this kind of stuff I realize…I’m just a realist and don’t really care for stealing large scale or small scale.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

lol k.  i thought that was universal. learn something new 

but i had another hypothetical down the line.. 



> another hypothetical ( i love em  ) extends on my earlier point...
> as an artist you want to gain fans , who pay to come to your shows and buy your albums when they come out.  what if your biggest fan, who has bought all of your albums and paid for every show , found you via a pirated copy?  you never would have had them if not - and then say it's not one fan, but 100.  then what do you think about it?
> 
> i'm not in anyway trying to justify it - i just tend to play devils advocate and have to wonder if that changes your strict stance.  piracy is 100% wrong, but what if your fans pirating you actually worked out to your advantage?  *forget what you actually think of the act of them pirating - would you rather they never did it and never found you at all?*



seriously, i just like to throw these ideas back and forth.  i sometimes (not this time) will argue a position i don't even believe in... it helps me to think about things differently and consider viewpoints i never have.  keeps me thinking...


----------



## Reefer86 (Jun 6, 2010)

Pirates are just a new age excuse used by publishers not the developers to get away from them charging you more money for a lesser product. Internet DRM is just another way of companys securing there investment, they dont really care about if u pirate or not just if they get there cash. While we all argue here about the wrongs or the rights, all its doing is deferring the attention away from what they are doing. 

The fact is that the financial reports have shown growth for the last 8 years (or as far as some reports go) Now if they are making growth and profit, pirating is clearly not having the impact that they say it is.

The reason they sell to the console market more over is that they can charge more money for a product and also they are soon to introduce a $15 charge when u buy a game second hand for you to be able to play it. Just another money spinning scheme, if u ask them why??? im sure they will say oooooo its because we need more money because pirates are destroying us. LOL its BS and if you actually think this is true, then you need to open your eyes.

A company wouldn't operate if they felt so strongly about piracey and it was destroying and losing the company money.

Now a survey was done within the UK and they found that people that pirate software and music spend on average £7.92 a year where as those people that don't download at all spent on average  £3.72. There are alot of people that use the pirating system as a 'try before you buy' 
To be honest publishers are releasing such shite I don't blame people for wanting to try games before they buy. 

Piracy has been here for years, wether be from ' buying a disc from dodgy dave' or downloading its been here from day one and will NEVER EVER change.

The fact today is that huge publishers and global company's  are using piracy as an excuse for the way they are doing business and in turn take me and you up the arse.

Its the small DEVELOPERS that get screwed over by piracy, but tbh its more the publishers screwing over the developers then the pirates. So if u want someone to blame, blame the way that some publishers operate there business. We have seen this happening recently with infinity ward and activision and im sure activision have fucked over many many more small developers along the way.


----------



## lemode (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> another hypothetical ( i love em  ) extends on my earlier point...as an artist you want to gain fans , who pay to come to your shows and buy your albums when they come out.  what if your biggest fan, who has bought all of your albums and paid for every show , found you via a pirated copy?  you never would have had them if not - and then say it's not one fan, but 100.  then what do you think about it?
> 
> i'm not in anyway trying to justify it - i just tend to play devils advocate and have to wonder if that changes your strict stance.  piracy is 100% wrong, but what if your fans pirating you actually worked out to your advantage?  forget what you actually think of the act of them pirating - would you rather they never did it and never found you at all?
> 
> and uh, this very obviously isn't all that hypothetical.  i book bands and run concerts as part of my job and can honestly say i have given people $15k to play at a show after i heard "an unofficial" copy of their music.



If said fan who pirated my copy…went out an actually purchased that LP/EP…I’d hold no grudge. But the sad reality of the situation is that you do not know who is taking what and where and by what means.

Before iTunes, I even considered CD burning (cd to cd copy) pirating. Now that I pay for the music on iTunes since all my F’ing beloved music retail locations are gone…I can burn that because I paid for it. I have around 5,000 records (vinyl) in my studio. All paid for by me since 1982. Jesus, My very first CD was Mc Hammers Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em. I think I had like 13 cd’s total from 1990-1998 then I worked at Blockbuster Music/Wherehouse Music after the merger…where I was exposed to SH*T LOADS of good music I never knew about. I spend half my paycheck buying discs from that day forth. Meeting reps gave me full CDs that were hole punched denoting that they were demos. That was about as close to pircacy I’ve been…hole punched promotional LPs given to me by repersentatives of corporate lables.

i get what you are saying though...i guess discovery through piracy is only okay if you actually throw away that ripped copy and purchase the full cd yourself. i hate saying that but i see that would be the only honorable thing to do.


----------



## Nick89 (Jun 6, 2010)

Any game I have ever pirated I also bought. 

Back in the day the only reason for me to pirate anything was because I couldn't buy it online or in a store. The only game I ever downloaded and didn't buy was Arcanum because I couldn't find it in stores or online. Wish they would put it up on steam. 

I also downloaded the UK version of the Witcher after buying the CENSORED US version.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Yeah...lets just call it a draw and move on.


Too bad you didn't put that at the beginning of your reply.  Too late now...




newtekie1 said:


> Once again, your scheme does not help offline games one bit, so it does not work.  In fact I can fire up my downloaded copy of Counter-Strike: Source right now, play it offline or even on a LAN without problem.  Schemes like SecuROM work with both online and offline games, your idea only marginally works with online games.


Playing offline or LAN doesn't cost Valve a cent.  Online causes most of the patches to be released, requires servers to coordinate players, and often paying another company to manage it (like GameSpy).  Once the game is released, they are losing no money on offline or LAN play.  Remember, once a title is purchased (unless they require monthly registration), every interaction between the player and the publisher costs the publisher money.


The only time an offline protection scheme is needed is if REAL piracy becomes a problem (fakes/copies for profit made, most likely, in China).  In which case, SafeDisc v4 worked well enough coupled with a good installer.




newtekie1 said:


> Just becuase you don't like it, that doesn't make it malware.  It is not malicious, so it is not malware.


What do most viruses do?  Stop anti-viruses and, potentially, Windows from working.  What does DRM do?  Stop a game or other application from working.  Virtually no difference.




newtekie1 said:


> Because it proves my point that DRM, when implemented properly, works?


No, hardware is a completely different ball game.  The game disks are engineered for the laser in the console.  It therefore requires hardware modification to remove that DRM check which, in turn, the console could notice and brick itself.  Like I said--complex stuff and irrelevant to this discussion.

And no, it doesn't work.  There are lots of pirates pirating Xbox 360, Wii, and PS3 games.  They really can't even figure out how many consoles have been modified because none of their DRM goes online; moreover, the very modification is intended to prevent software detection of the mod meaning updates are unlikely to locate it.  The more elaborate the DRM, the more elaborate the means to defeat it.





newtekie1 said:


> Your right in that they've all seen that message, but I believe you are wrong in assuming they care to even bother to look further into it other than putting the disc in the drive.


If the message doesn't go away when they do, they care (I've had that happen).





newtekie1 said:


> Not really, people don't pirate because the game has DRM, as I already said in this thread, the whole "I'm going to pirate it because it has DRM" is not only the most BS excuse I've heard for piracy, it also is never true.  People pirate because given the option to get something for free or pay for it, most people will always pick free, even if it is illegal as long as they know there is virtually no chance of getting caught.  That is why we see 90% piracy rates on cheap games with no DRM.  If your theory about people was correct, that number would be much lower.  When confronted with the option to "pay $20 for the game legit", or "get it for free illegally", 90% of people picked "get it for free illegally".  How do you explain that?  If everyone was pirating because of DRM, how do you explain a 90% piracy rate on DRM free games?


If your theory was right, 100% would pirate games.  And actually, World of Goo piracy is closer to 82%.  But if you read later in my previous post, you'd already know these things.




newtekie1 said:


> You really think the sales numbers would be that high?  DRM free games can't even break better then 10% legitimate sales already.  However, I know MW2 has less then a 50% piracy rate using basic Steam based DRM(4.1M Downloads by the end of 09 vs. 4.7M units sold in the first 5 days).  So lets use those numbers:
> 
> DRM: 1,000,000 copies sold at $50 with a gross of $50,000,000; 1,000,000 illegitimate installs.
> DRM Free: 200,000 copies sold at $50 with a gross of $10,000,000; 1,800,000 illegitimate installs.
> ...


Again, I reference 2D Boy.  The amount of piracy is about the same, DRM (92%) or not (82%).

You really don't understand the nature of the beast, do you?  There are people that will buy the game no matter what, we'll put them at 10%.  There are people that teeter on buying or pirating, we'll put them at 10%.  Then there are the pirates which play the game, but most likely won't buy it and we'll put them at 80%.  The top 10% echos the 10% number of legitimate copies.  The middle 10% can vary a lot depending on the quality of game and asking price (e.g. DRM free and name-your price World of Goo, they sided with the legitimate users; Ricochet, due to the DRM, they sided with the pirates).  The 80%, you got no influence over.  No amount of DRM will ever make them buy it, or even price (2D Boy found that out).  Lots of this bottom tier are aged 10-30 and from impoverished nations.

Every conversion they get from the middle group is more money in their pocket.  They could actually capitalize on the 80% by making it official: find out the hotbeds for that population and donate to them for free.  They can write off every copy given away as a donation so they can legitimately place that 80% on their balance sheet.  Why aren't they doing that now?  Too lazy, I bet, or too concerned about playing law enforcement.

Like I said, embrace the pirates, don't alienate them.





newtekie1 said:


> Only problem with that, Ricochet Infinity doesn't actually use any DRM.


http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

That is written by one of the authors of the game.  He says there is DRM in the game (and they updated it in trying to curb the piracy).  Your source is wrong.




newtekie1 said:


> And I downloaded World of Goo illegally, and never submitted a score, passed it on to all of my friends too, and they never submitted scores either...I did eventually pay $1 for it when they offered the pay anything you want, simply because it was a good game and I thought they deserved it, but I know not a single one of my friends paid a penny for it.


That dollar is more than they would have gotten for it otherwise.  Image if 100,000 people did the same as you.  That's $100,000 profit right there.




newtekie1 said:


> Despite my argument for DRM, as I've already said in this thread, I pirate every game I play, I only pay for the good ones that I really play.


Which makes you a hypocrite.


----------



## Reefer86 (Jun 6, 2010)

so your sayin that 80% of the gaming market or media market actually never buy and pirate. you sir are very un informed and tbh either must be taken in by the media or just a plain ..........well your statement speaks volumes.

If this is not what your trying to say then i apologise.

sometimes it makes me wonder though about your comments and percentages if a game  was 80% pirated, tbh without the 80% of people downloading and talking about it, the amount of people that actually bought it would have been smaller as the word wouldnt of spread as far so in turn the money they earned would have been less. So is piracy a friend or the enemy. Corporate company's choose enemy at the minute as its a good excuse for raising prices and generally offering a lesser product.

So many companys one minute say they love the internet as they can spread the word to the world about a release and sell a product all over the world, but then the next minute are slamming the pirates that are on it. Well they have allways been there so i dont understand there point of view, you have to take the ruff with the smooth like all business.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

Reefer86 said:


> so your sayin that 80% of the gaming market or media market actually never buy and pirate. you sir are very un informed and tbh either must be taken in by the media or just a plain ..........well your statement speaks volumes.


It's a rough estimate from the studies conducted by 2D Boy (World of Goo) and Reflexive Entertainment (Ricochet Infinity).




Reefer86 said:


> sometimes it makes me wonder though about your comments and percentages if a game  was 80% pirated, tbh without the 80% of people downloading and talking about it, the amount of people that actually bought it would have been smaller as the word wouldnt of spread as far. So is piracy a friend or the enemy. Corporate company's choose enemy at the minute as its a good excuse for raising prices and generally offering a lesser product.


There's over 1 billion computers on Earth.  If you reach just 10% of them, that's 100,000,000 potential customers.  If only 10% of those bought the product, that's still 10,000,000 paying customers.  At $40 MSRP, that's $40,000,000 gross, less the no more than $10,000,000 to create it and $10,000,000 profit kept by retailers and that's some $20,000,000 net profit (a lot of money).

I agree with the end of your statement there.  The DRM excuse goes both ways: pirates use it as an excuse not to buy it and publishers use it as an excuse to charge more and engineer more restricing forms of DRM.


----------



## DrPepper (Jun 6, 2010)

lemode said:


> Before iTunes, I even considered CD burning (cd to cd copy) pirating. Now that I pay for the music on iTunes since all my F’ing beloved music retail locations are gone…



iTunes isn't fair for artists from what I've heard.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Playing offline or LAN doesn't cost Valve a cent.  Online causes most of the patches to be released, requires servers to coordinate players, and often paying another company to manage it (like GameSpy).  Once the game is released, they are losing no money on offline or LAN play.  Remember, once a title is purchased (unless they require monthly registration), every interaction between the player and the publisher costs the publisher money.
> 
> 
> The only time an offline protection scheme is needed is if REAL piracy becomes a problem (fakes/copies for profit made, most likely, in China).  In which case, SafeDisc v4 worked well enough coupled with a good installer.



Online doesn't cost Valve a cent.  All the servers are user created, Valve for the most part does create or maintain any servers, so it isn't costing them a cent.

And online play does not cause most of the patches to be released.  Bugs in the game found by the general public, who the developers use as beta testers, are what cause the patches to be released(or in the case of some games, not be released even though they are needed).



FordGT90Concept said:


> What do most viruses do?  Stop anti-viruses and, potentially, Windows from working.  What does DRM do?  Stop a game or other application from working.  Virtually no difference.



Yes, there is a big difference between stopping Anti-Viruses and Windows from functioning on purpose, and stopping illegal copies of a game from working.  If you can't see it, then your ignorant.



FordGT90Concept said:


> No, hardware is a completely different ball game.  The game disks are engineered for the laser in the console.  It therefore requires hardware modification to remove that DRM check which, in turn, the console could notice and brick itself.  Like I said--complex stuff and irrelevant to this discussion.



No, very relevent, it just doesn't make you look good.  The strictest methods of DRM, the type embedded in the hardware, is also the fastest growing.  With users switching out discs, moving them from case to case, pretty much everything you say is so terrible and why DRM doesn't work...is also the biggest growing game market and least pirated.



FordGT90Concept said:


> And no, it doesn't work.  There are lots of pirates pirating Xbox 360, Wii, and PS3 games.  They really can't even figure out how many consoles have been modified because none of their DRM goes online; moreover, the very modification is intended to prevent software detection of the mod meaning updates are unlikely to locate it.  The more elaborate the DRM, the more elaborate the means to defeat it.



No, there isn't a single person pirating PS3 games, because the console has still yet to have a working crack yet.  No one has figured it out, they have just finally begun to figure it out actually.

Oh, and of course the Xbox's that have been modified can't play their online games because they get banned constantly...a lot of good that does...




FordGT90Concept said:


> If the message doesn't go away when they do, they care (I've had that happen).



No they don't, they click OK, if that doesn't work they reboot their PC.  The common consumer doesn't care.




FordGT90Concept said:


> If your theory was right, 100% would pirate games.  And actually, World of Goo piracy is closer to 82%.  But if you read later in my previous post, you'd already know these things.



No, as I said my theory was the _majority/most_ people would still pirate, notice I never said everyone would, there are still some good people out there, I haven't totally lost faith in humanity.  But 90% or 82%, my theory still stands correct, the majority/most people would still pirate the game.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Again, I reference 2D Boy.  The amount of piracy is about the same, DRM (92%) or not (82%).
> 
> You really don't understand the nature of the beast, do you?  There are people that will buy the game no matter what, we'll put them at 10%.  There are people that teeter on buying or pirating, we'll put them at 10%.  Then there are the pirates which play the game, but most likely won't buy it and we'll put them at 80%.  The top 10% echos the 10% number of legitimate copies.  The middle 10% can vary a lot depending on the quality of game and asking price (e.g. DRM free and name-your price World of Goo, they sided with the legitimate users; Ricochet, due to the DRM, they sided with the pirates).  The 80%, you got no influence over.  No amount of DRM will ever make them buy it, or even price (2D Boy found that out).  Lots of this bottom tier are aged 10-30 and from impoverished nations.
> 
> ...



Of course I understand it, it seems you don't.  As you can't write of copies given away to people just because, it definitely doesn't work that way.  People are not charities, so you can't "donate" to them and write it off.

Now, there are people that want to play the game, we'll call that 100%.  Of that, 10% will buy the game because it is the right thing to do.  50% will pirate the game no matter what because they can.  The other 40% will try to get the game from their friends first, and if they can't copy the disc/exe and just install it, they will buy it.




FordGT90Concept said:


> http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350
> 
> That is written by one of the authors of the game.  He says there is DRM in the game (and they updated it in trying to curb the piracy).  Your source is wrong.



Ok, so it is DRM that is so weak, the piracy sites don't consider it to even be there.

All right, I go with that.  So who does the DRM apply to then?  Casual pirates.  Ok, well when they updated it so those people couldn't pirate it anymore, what happened?  We know the "hardcore" pirates were not affected because they'll just crack it again, but what about the casual pirates, did it do anything for them?  Sure did, in the case of Ricochet Infinity
 it made sales jump 13%, so 13% more people were going to buy the game, oh and 16% drop in downloads too!  Nice...DRM works!  Now, does every pirated copy equal a sale, absolutely not, they figured for every 1,000 pirated copies they stopped with DRM, that translated into 1 sale.  So 50,000 downloads stopped, means 50 sales, yes that might not be a huge number, but it is 50 more than they would have had without DRM.  Does the total number of sales brought in via implementing DRM outweight the costs of implementing the DRM, it must if they still implement the DRM.



FordGT90Concept said:


> That dollar is more than they would have gotten for it otherwise.  Image if 100,000 people did the same as you.  That's $100,000 profit right there.



Saddly I'm a rare case, as none of my friends paid a penny, and neither did the other 90% playing the game illegally.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Which makes you a hypocrite.



Not really, now if I was a game developer and voiced my opinion against DRM, then put DRM in my games, that would make me a hypocrite.

However, in the same way a car thief can stress the importance of locking your car door, a pirate can talk about the need for DRM, in fact they probably understand the need more than anyone...


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Now, there are people that want to play the game, we'll call that 100%.  Of that, 10% will buy the game because it is the right thing to do.  50% will pirate the game no matter what because they can.  The other 40% will try to get the game from their friends first, and if they can't copy the disc/exe and just install it, they will buy it.



see but you just made those numbers up.  I have a really hard time believing that 90% of people or 80, or even 50 will pirate a game.  Obviously I don't know what the numbers are either - but extrapolating world of goos "test" numbers to blockbuster games in ingenuous  , and i don't see how the real numbers could possibly be that high.

fallout 3 shipped nearly 5 million copies on it's launch week.  show me the numbers that prove 3 million people pirated it in that same week.  I don't think you can, and I don't think they did.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> see but you just made those numbers up.  I have a really hard time believing that 90% of people or 80, or even 50 will pirate a game.  Obviously I don't know what the numbers are either - but extrapolating world of goos "test" numbers to blockbuster games in ingenuous  , and i don't see how the real numbers could possibly be that high.
> 
> fallout 3 shipped nearly 5 million copies on it's launch week.  show me the numbers that prove 3 million people pirated it in that same week.  I don't think you can, and I don't think they did.



Are you kidding?! I think its against the law in Russia to buy a game. Its like some old world Russian tradition to pirate games from the west. It was the creed of the first Czar if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Are you kidding?! I think its against the law in Russia to buy a game. Its like some old world Russian tradition to pirate games from the west. It was the creed of the first Czar if I'm not mistaken.



lol... you know, that's fair.  i do see piracy in russia as a different animal than piracy in the rest of the world, though - still the numbers count and you are probably right in how much they jacked them up.

but again - Russia's reasoning and attitude toward piracy is different from any other nation or group of people... on a mass scale.  I just think it's a sort of different thing.  it's a business, not just kids having fun.  that i think is worse.

not that the kids are in the right.  piracy is wrong, always.  i just want to clarify that because i think my position has become muddled.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> see but you just made those numbers up.  I have a really hard time believing that 90% of people or 80, or even 50 will pirate a game.  Obviously I don't know what the numbers are either - but extrapolating world of goos "test" numbers to blockbuster games in ingenuous  , and i don't see how the real numbers could possibly be that high.
> 
> fallout 3 shipped nearly 5 million copies on it's launch week.  show me the numbers that prove 3 million people pirated it in that same week.  I don't think you can, and I don't think they did.



But I did not just make those numbers up.  The first 24 hours, MW2 sold 4.7 Million units, for $310 Million in revenue, or just under $66 per copy.   Now, according to figures released Jan 10, 2010, the game broke the $1bn mark.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the average sale price per unit went down to $50, giving 20 Million units sold.  Now, about 8% of those units were PC copies, according to Amazon's percentage break down, or 1.6 Million copies.  MW2 had almost 4.1 Million pirated downloads at the end of 2009, and that is just the PC version...so about 72% piracy rate?

Edit: Actually it is 6% are PC sales according to Amazon now.  However, I'm too lazy to go back and recalculate things, but I don't think you'll mind since the 8% makes your argument seem slightly better...  Also, I know the numbers are not 100% perfect and correct, however the educated guesses based on the information available gets close enough to prove my point.


----------



## entropy13 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> lol... you know, that's fair.  i do see piracy in russia as a different animal than piracy in the rest of the world, though - still the numbers count and you are probably right in how much they jacked them up.
> 
> but again - Russia's reasoning and attitude toward piracy is different from any other nation or group of people... on a mass scale.  I just think it's a sort of different thing.  it's a business, not just kids having fun.  that i think is worse.
> 
> not that the kids are in the right.  piracy is wrong, always.  i just want to clarify that because i think my position has become muddled.




Read somewhere that one of Skidrow, Reloaded or Razor1911 are based in Russia, or somewhere in Eastern Europe, since I've read somewhere that when TPB was temporarily hosted in the Ukraine that "the crackers are quite near irl too"


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

my bad - but are we sure the pc numbers are accurate?  they are notoriously hard to get a solid figure on, often only counting brick and mortar sales and saying nothing about digital distribution...



newtekie1 said:


> But I did not just make those numbers up.  The first 24 hours, MW2 sold 4.7 Million units, for $310 Million in revenue, or just under $66 per copy.   Now, according to figures released Jan 10, 2010, the game broke the $1bn mark.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the average sale price per unit went down to $50, giving 20 Million units sold.  Now, about 8% of those units were PC copies, according to Amazon's percentage break down, or 1.6 Million copies.  MW2 had almost 4.1 Million pirated downloads at the end of 2009, and that is just the PC version...so about 72% piracy rate?



still, it can't possible be off by enough to make that number THAT much lower.

but, then back to russia - if russia has a 90+% rate of piracy, at their size and how many people use computers they have to account for almost or even more than  half of the world total.

that's nuts.

BUT: where do those pirated numbers come from?  I'd really like to know how they can know exactly how many people pirate - but they can't figure how to stop it.  if they have that much info there should be no issue.


----------



## HossHuge (Jun 6, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Are you kidding?! I think its against the law in Russia to buy a game. Its like some old world Russian tradition to pirate games from the west. It was the creed of the first Czar if I'm not mistaken.



It's bad here in Taiwan as well.  I've heard Taiwanese people say, "I'm Taiwanese, I don't need to pay."  There's a night market up the street where you can buy any game out right now for about $5.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> where do those pirated numbers come from?  I'd really like to know how they can know exactly how many people pirate - but they can't figure how to stop it.  if they have that much info there should be no issue.




At a guess they go torrent hunting, search for all the torrents for MW2 and go by how many downloaded them.
HOWEVER *WE ALL KNOW* that some torrents are fake/don't work/ or whatever so are unusable. Thus the people that actually downloaded the game may not have a working pirate copy, however are still counted in the total. Which in my opinion gives the over inflated numbers of piracy.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

WhiteLotus said:


> At a guess they go torrent hunting, search for all the torrents for MW2 and go by how many downloaded them.
> HOWEVER *WE ALL KNOW* that some torrents are fake/don't work/ or whatever so are unusable. Thus the people that actually downloaded the game may not have a working pirate copy, however are still counted in the total. Which in my opinion gives the over inflated numbers of piracy.



that's what i was thinking.  some sites have horrible stats apps that load nfo or page views as a download. also failed downloads will count, even if the file never finished coming.  

i would not be surprised if 40% or more of "hits" were something above or similar.  

now again this in no way justifies the rest ... but i think it's interesting to explore the whole situation...not just "bad bad bad" and leave it at that.  ok, it's bad.  but it's still complicated - and i want to understand it all.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Online doesn't cost Valve a cent.  All the servers are user created, Valve for the most part does create or maintain any servers, so it isn't costing them a cent.


The master server (contains the list of all the servers available) and patching (there's a major update coming out for CS:S soon).




newtekie1 said:


> And online play does not cause most of the patches to be released.  Bugs in the game found by the general public, who the developers use as beta testers, are what cause the patches to be released(or in the case of some games, not be released even though they are needed).


The single player element of a game often rarely gets patches beyond the first 6 months of release.  They are fixing bugs that may be preventing potential buyers from buying.  It also serves as a PR campaign because there's nothing worse than buying a game that barely works.

The online element of a game, on the other hand, could get monthly or biannual updates for years to prevent cheating, add maps, and implement other changes.  Basically, it is supported until a sequel comes out or it is deemed a market failure.





newtekie1 said:


> No, very relevent, it just doesn't make you look good.  The strictest methods of DRM, the type embedded in the hardware, is also the fastest growing.  With users switching out discs, moving them from case to case, pretty much everything you say is so terrible and why DRM doesn't work...is also the biggest growing game market and least pirated.


There's growing resistance towards hardware DRM too, especially on the Wii.  A lot of owners are dissipointed that it has a DVD player but no software to play DVDs.  That has made the HBC very popular.  That in turn allows people to play emulator games without buying them off the Nintendo Store.





newtekie1 said:


> No, there isn't a single person pirating PS3 games, because the console has still yet to have a working crack yet.  No one has figured it out, they have just finally begun to figure it out actually.


http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/23/ps3-finally-properly-hacked/

Mod chips work too.




newtekie1 said:


> Of course I understand it, it seems you don't.  As you can't write of copies given away to people just because, it definitely doesn't work that way.  People are not charities, so you can't "donate" to them and write it off.


The gaming industry could easily create a donation program that distributes titles to third world countries that could use them.  It could be done, and it would benefit the publishers come tax time.




newtekie1 said:


> Ok, so it is DRM that is so weak, the piracy sites don't consider it to even be there.
> 
> All right, I go with that.  So who does the DRM apply to then?  Casual pirates.  Ok, well when they updated it so those people couldn't pirate it anymore, what happened?  We know the "hardcore" pirates were not affected because they'll just crack it again, but what about the casual pirates, did it do anything for them?  Sure did, in the case of Ricochet Infinity
> it made sales jump 13%, so 13% more people were going to buy the game, oh and 16% drop in downloads too!  Nice...DRM works!  Now, does every pirated copy equal a sale, absolutely not, they figured for every 1,000 pirated copies they stopped with DRM, that translated into 1 sale.  So 50,000 downloads stopped, means 50 sales, yes that might not be a huge number, but it is 50 more than they would have had without DRM.  Does the total number of sales brought in via implementing DRM outweight the costs of implementing the DRM, it must if they still implement the DRM.


Again, they have the same problems as 2D Boy.  Their information only tells them of those that went online (which is optional) what percent were pirates.  More over, I take their fir #1-#4 with a large pinch of salt because those fluctuations could be caused by weekends and economic circumstances alone.

The point is, the cost of DRM doesn't pay for itself, nevermind curbing piracy.





newtekie1 said:


> Saddly I'm a rare case, as none of my friends paid a penny, and neither did the other 90% playing the game illegally.


18% (a very rough estimate) did pay for it which is more than double that of a DRM infected game.  That speaks pretty loudly to me.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> my bad - but are we sure the pc numbers are accurate?  they are notoriously hard to get a solid figure on, often only counting brick and mortar sales and saying nothing about digital distribution...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> The data for these lists is collected by TorrentFreak from several sources, including reports from all public BitTorrent trackers. All the data is carefully checked and possible inaccuracies are systematically corrected.



Looking at the public trackers will give you a good idea, if anything the numbers are probably a little lower than they really are due to private trackers not being included.  *Edit:* As FordGT90Concept was nice enough to point out, these number should actually be even bigger due to the number of people that got the pirated version through other means besides bittorrent(trading with their friends/other download services/etc.).  Thanks FordGT90Concept for clearifying that further for me.



FordGT90Concept said:


> The master server (contains the list of all the servers available) and patching (there's a major update coming out for CS:S soon).



Yes, and that server costs next to nothing to maintain.  And CS:S is still sold, which is the only reason it is getting updates, and why is it still selling copies?  Because of DRM, Steam, to be exact.  Oh, and I don't have a CD key for CS:S and I play online just fine, because CS:S doesn't use CD Keys...




FordGT90Concept said:


> The single player element of a game often rarely gets patches beyond the first 6 months of release.  They are fixing bugs that may be preventing potential buyers from buying.  It also serves as a PR campaign because there's nothing worse than buying a game that barely works.
> 
> The online element of a game, on the other hand, could get monthly or biannual updates for years to prevent cheating, add maps, and implement other changes.  Basically, it is supported until a sequel comes out or it is deemed a market failure.



The online element rarely gets updates either, save the few blockbuster titles that are massively popular.




FordGT90Concept said:


> There's growing resistance towards hardware DRM too, especially on the Wii.  A lot of owners are dissipointed that it has a DVD player but no software to play DVDs.  That has made the HBC very popular.  That in turn allows people to play emulator games without buying them off the Nintendo Store.



That isn't a resistance to DRM, that is a resistants to paying for something they feel should be free, and their lack of understanding how things like DVD players work.  The Wii not playing back DVDs is not because of DRM, it is because Nintendo won't pay Sony the royalties for the DVD qualification.  It has nothing to do with the protecting the content on the DVDs themselve, which is where DRM comes into play.




FordGT90Concept said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/23/ps3-finally-properly-hacked/
> 
> Mod chips work too.



Not on the PS3, at least not yet.



FordGT90Concept said:


> The gaming industry could easily create a donation program that distributes titles to third world countries that could use them.  It could be done, and it would benefit the publishers come tax time.



The cost of setting up a program like that, and maintaining it, would likely be larger then the tax benefit at the end of the year.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Again, they have the same problems as 2D Boy.  Their information only tells them of those that went online (which is optional) what percent were pirates.  More over, I take their fir #1-#4 with a large pinch of salt because those fluctuations could be caused by weekends and economic circumstances alone.



Right, it is optional, and as 2D Boy explained, the are assuming that the number of people that optionally go online with the legit and pirated versions are about the same ratio, so it balances out.  Actually, I think that is a rather off guess, as I think people that pirate the game are less likely to actually use it online then those that bought it legit.

And 1-3 doesn't apply because those were all done before the release of the specific game, but 4 does apply, because it was made after the games release, and had a direct impact on the games sales numbers.



FordGT90Concept said:


> The point is, the cost of DRM doesn't pay for itself, nevermind curbing piracy.



Obviously the people with the numbers sitting right in front of them believe otherwise, and they are the only ones that know for sure.




FordGT90Concept said:


> 18% (a very rough estimate) did pay for it which is more than double that of a DRM infected game.  That speaks pretty loudly to me.



Speaks that the game is more popular and better, or that people are pirating the other game more because it has DRM?  Do you think most of the people playing Richotte even know what DRM is?


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Looking at the public trackers will give you a good idea, if anything the numbers are probably a little lower than they really are due to private trackers not being included.



yeah man that's iffy.  you think they actually verified that 4 million people downloaded the full thing, got every file, and from a real release?  i think they just put every hit for MW2 up there regardless of whether or not it was real.

now - even if it wasn't real the intent was there. but what happens when one doesn't work and someone downloads a different copy.  the number counts twice.



TheMailMan78 said:


> You can walk down a street in China town NY and do the same thing. Almost all the Arab nations do it also. I can only guess about Africa. Pirating isn't just torrent counts as much as you think. One legit copy turns into thousands of copies on the street itself. Pirating is much larger than you think. In Miami they have raided warehouses full of pirated software.
> 
> We have a few friends on TPU that are from Arab nations like Iraq and they can vouch for this also.



true.  that makes the number astounding.  still can't tell exactly how many - but the number has got to be much larger than the estimates.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 6, 2010)

HossHuge said:


> It's bad here in Taiwan as well.  I've heard Taiwanese people say, "I'm Taiwanese, I don't need to pay."  There's a night market up the street where you can buy any game out right now for about $5.



 In Miami they have raided warehouses full of pirated software. You can walk down a street in China town NY and do the same thing. Almost all the Arab nations do it also. I can only guess about Africa. Pirating isn't just torrent counts as much as you think. One legit copy turns into thousands of copies on the street itself. Pirating is much larger than you think.

We have a few friends on TPU that are from Arab nations like Iraq and they can vouch for this also.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jun 6, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> In Miami they have raided warehouses full of pirated software. You can walk down a street in China town NY and do the same thing. Almost all the Arab nations do it also. I can only guess about Africa. Pirating isn't just torrent counts as much as you think. One legit copy turns into thousands of copies on the street itself. Pirating is much larger than you think.
> 
> We have a few friends on TPU that are from Arab nations like Iraq and they can vouch for this also.



They do the same thing in Korea- 5 dollar DVDs and XB/PS2 Games at the time i was there, im pretty sure its now 360/3 and Wii Games, along with DS Mega Game Packs. Copying games from Hardcopies doesnt always work and when you get a dud from such a shop you would have to return to get another that was working.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> But I did not just make those numbers up.  The first 24 hours, MW2 sold 4.7 Million units, for $310 Million in revenue, or just under $66 per copy.   Now, according to figures released Jan 10, 2010, the game broke the $1bn mark.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the average sale price per unit went down to $50, giving 20 Million units sold.  Now, about 8% of those units were PC copies, according to Amazon's percentage break down, or 1.6 Million copies.  MW2 had almost 4.1 Million pirated downloads at the end of 2009, and that is just the PC version...so about 72% piracy rate?
> 
> Edit: Actually it is 6% are PC sales according to Amazon now.  However, I'm too lazy to go back and recalculate things, but I don't think you'll mind since the 8% makes your argument seem slightly better...  Also, I know the numbers are not 100% perfect and correct, however the educated guesses based on the information available gets close enough to prove my point.


You're making many, many assumptions.  First, there are no public figures for number of units shipped outside of the first 24 hours.  Second, there's no way to tell how many copies were pirates except by using the same, very rough estimates, 2D Boy and Reflexive Entertainment used (relying on those that contacted their servers).  Thirdly, World of Goo and Richochet Infinity are indie games so the piracy model is likely not to match a major commercial title (namely, one that has a lot of advertising going in to it).




HossHuge said:


> It's bad here in Taiwan as well.  I've heard Taiwanese people say, "I'm Taiwanese, I don't need to pay."  There's a night market up the street where you can buy any game out right now for about $5.


How are they packaged?  Are they burned copies of the CDs?  Do they work or do you need to go get a crack?  Did they duplicate the packaging?  Details! XD


----------



## lemode (Jun 6, 2010)

DrPepper said:


> iTunes isn't fair for artists from what I've heard.



Is it a multi-million recording contract? No it's not (not like I personally would ever want to be told what to make by some douche in a suit anyway). Because the damage has been done...iTunes presents oppertunity & gives a decent split for artists. It's 70% to artist and 30% to iTunes (same for app developers too).

Now, I've never really made music to be famous. I make music because I love music. I don't hope to be discovered by a major lbl. I'm independant as Fu*k! Give me 5 listening ears who enjoy my ish and I'm happy. With sites like soundcloud, I'm exposed to a lot if people who make music. I've even managed to get a few colaborative projects out of that...and honestly...I have my 9-5...I'd take music social networking/fun any day than making 'Big Bucks' making music that makes me want to kill myself. The brokest are always the dopest. Anyway, hope that sheds some perspective.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Looking at the public trackers will give you a good idea, if anything the numbers are probably a little lower than they really are due to private trackers not being included.


1) Downloading a torrent file does not mean they did anything illegal (it only represents a link).
2) Some people that own the game legitimately download it to replace damaged disks.
3) Some people download multiple torrents for the same file in order to boost their download performance.
4) Some people aquire copies of the game without using the Internet at all.
5) Some people aquire copies through other means (like eDonkey networks).
6) Some people aquire copies by downloading directly from a server.
7) Some people download multiple versions of the same file in order to better the odds of getting a working version.
8) Some downloads are fakes.
9) No way to prove that each download constituted all, or part of, the download.
10) No way to prove that the torrent failed to download in its entirety which caused the user to go back to the torretents and redownload the damaged sections.

The list of variables is virtually endless.  So endless, I'd say looking at torrent downloads can't even be considered a good way to guage piracy to an extent that it could be compared to sales figures.

It's really quite simple, no one has every conducted a 100% fool proof study on game piracy, namely, because it is impossible (even firewalls could skew the results).


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> yeah man that's iffy.  you think they actually verified that 4 million people downloaded the full thing, got every file, and from a real release?  i think they just put every hit for MW2 up there regardless of whether or not it was real.
> 
> now - even if it wasn't real the intent was there. but what happens when one doesn't work and someone downloads a different copy.  the number counts twice.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what the trackers do, they tell you every time the download was completed.  They do more than just track who is seeding and downloading, which is why they can be used by private site to figure out share ratios for each user.



FordGT90Concept said:


> 1) Downloading a torrent file does not mean they did anything illegal (it only represents a link).
> 2) Some people that own the game legitimately download it to replace damaged disks.
> 3) Some people download multiple torrents for the same file in order to boost their download performance.
> 4) Some people aquire copies of the game without using the Internet at all.
> ...



1.) Downloading the torrent fully means an illegal download.
2.) In the first few months of the games release?  I doubt these numbers amount to much.
3.) Do you understand what trackers do?
4.) Correct, so your saying the piracy numbers should be larger, gotcha I'll make a note of that the next time I'm explaining it.
5.) Correct, so your saying the piracy numbers should be larger, gotcha I'll make a note of that the next time I'm explaining it.
6.) Correct, so your saying the piracy numbers should be larger, gotcha I'll make a note of that the next time I'm explaining it.
7.) With bittorrent, you don't have to.
8.) And trackers to fake versions were likely not included in the numbers.
9.) Yes there is, the trackers tracks this information.
10.) Again, the tracker tracks this information.

You are correc, there is no way to do a fool proof study of piracy and statistics when it comes to game sales or how DRM affects either one, I think I already said that.  The game publishers obviously think DRM does something, or they wouldn't be using it.


----------



## digibucc (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> That is exactly what the trackers do, they tell you every time the download was completed.  They do more than just track who is seeding and downloading, which is why they can be used by private site to figure out share ratios for each user.



i didn't know that... second day in a row to learn something new 



newtekie1 said:


> You are correc, there is no way to do a fool proof study of piracy and statistics when it comes to game sales or how DRM affects either one, I think I already said that.  The game publishers obviously think DRM does something, or they wouldn't be using it.



i have no argument with that.  my argument is how far is too far?  i think ubisoft went too far. as i said before, I bought Settlers 7 and was unable to play the first 2 weeks. stopped trying after that.  I would get about 5-10 mins in and either my connection would drop ( i guess, that's what it told me) or their server would drop.  I couldn't play a game i paid for because of the ridiculous lengths they go to.  obviously piracy is bad - and a lot of people do it( i have come to understand) - but what really matters REALLY , to me - is how many lost sales are there, really.  because lost sales are the only thing that actually matter to the companies bottom line.  the other guys aren't off the hook - but atm it doesn't matter, as they wouldn't have bought it.

so if 1/1000 people would have actually bought the game that pirated it - i say forcing me to be online to play a single player game is too far.  that puts ubisoft on the bad side for me.  that does *NOT* exonerate pirates in any way - but they aren't the ones making it so i can't play the game i paid for.  if it was 50%, or even 10% of possible buyers, i would be more forgiving. but your number of 1/1000 puts it at a fraction of 1%.  

what they are doing then is using it as an excuse to STEAL our money, albeit in a less obvious and more deceptive manner.  with $15 resale fees, day one dlc codes, $60 pc games.  all the while they have record profits for what was it - 8 years standing?

just because it "does something" doesn't mean it is a "good" something.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

Trackers don't tell you everytime the download was completed.  They tell you available peers.  Peers can submit statistics to the tracker but they by no means need to.




newtekie1 said:


> That isn't a resistance to DRM, that is a resistants to paying for something they feel should be free, and their lack of understanding how things like DVD players work.  The Wii not playing back DVDs is not because of DRM, it is because Nintendo won't pay Sony the royalties for the DVD qualification.  It has nothing to do with the protecting the content on the DVDs themselve, which is where DRM comes into play.


Um, virtual console?  It has its own form of heavy duty DRM (user accounts and god knows what else) and they are circumventing it entirely.  It's hard to say how many use HBC for emulators rather than the ability to play DVDs.  People feel they shouldn't have to pay for something they paid for previously, hence the emulators on Wii.




newtekie1 said:


> Speaks that the game is more popular and better, or that people are pirating the other game more because it has DRM?  Do you think most of the people playing Richotte even know what DRM is?


92%, according to their numbers, knew how to circumvent their DRM.  I'd say the vast majority know very well what it is and, more importantly, how to get around it.  Again, those numbers are very rough estimates.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> think ubisoft went too far. as i said before, I bought Settlers 7 and was unable to play the first 2 weeks. stopped trying after that.  I would get about 5-10 mins in and either my connection would drop ( i guess, that's what it told me) or their server would drop.  I couldn't play a game i paid for because of the ridiculous lengths they go to.  obviously piracy is bad - and a lot of people do it( i have come to understand)



Same thing happened to me in Assassins Creed II. 

Later i cracked it and never purchased a Ubisoft game again. Ubi can thank their wonderful DRM for that.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

digibucc said:


> i didn't know that... second day in a row to learn something new
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I have already said, I agree that this always on DRM goes too far.  I don't mind the CD checks and other crap, but this always one DRM is stupid, I said that the day it was announced for Assisins Creed 2.



mdsx1950 said:


> Same thing happened to me in Assassins Creed II.
> 
> Later i cracked it and never purchased a Ubisoft game again. Ubi can thank their wonderful DRM for that.



I've made several topics about this issue actually, and how poorly managed/handled this form of DRM has been.  It is really completely pathetic of Ubisoft to implement this always on DRM, and then completely fumble it in the way that they have.  If they are going to implement it, and want to users to accept it, then they needed to pull it off perfectly, and they fell way short of that.  This is one of the reasons that I now always pirate the game before I buy it.

I'm for DRM, but only in moderation.  I believe some DRM helps the industry stay alive and insures the game developers make some money and will continue to develope the games I love.  However, I think too much DRM, such as this always on DRM and how Ubisoft handled it, has the opposite effect.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Trackers don't tell you everytime the download was completed.  They tell you available peers.  Peers can submit statistics to the tracker but they by no means need to.



Trackers track user ratios, how much each user has downloaded and how much each user has upload to the given torrent.  When the amount downloaded reaches the size of the torrent, the user has fully downloaded it, and the tracker know it.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Um, virtual console?  It has its own form of heavy duty DRM (user accounts and god knows what else) and they are circumventing it entirely.  It's hard to say how many use HBC for emulators rather than the ability to play DVDs.  People feel they shouldn't have to pay for something they paid for previously, hence the emulators on Wii.



And I agree with them, they shouldn't, however what percentage is even doing this?  Is it even 25%?  And how many of those are doing it to play DVDs specifically?  No, I'd really like to know, because I don't.




FordGT90Concept said:


> 92%, according to their numbers, knew how to circumvent their DRM.  I'd say the vast majority know very well what it is and, more importantly, how to get around it.  Again, those numbers are very rough estimates.



And as I said, their DRM was so shitty it doesn't even register on pirate sites as DRM...


----------



## AsRock (Jun 6, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> *well i certainly agree that sales numbers do not translate to a high quality game. perhaps this is a good opportunity to describe what exactly IS a high quality game. what are the characteristics of a high quality game? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is a standard but everyone's standard is different.  For example i like the more complex type games like Arma were some like the more day of defeat \ CS which to me are totally brain dead ( no offense meant ).


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Trackers track user ratios, how much each user has downloaded and how much each user has upload to the given torrent.  When the amount downloaded reaches the size of the torrent, the user has fully downloaded it, and the tracker know it.


That's just a byte number.  It doesn't tell you what torrent those bytes came from.  In fact, most trackers dispose of all information except the bytes downloaded and uploaded for security purposes.  The torrent client keeps the statistics for each individual torrent--that doesn't reach the tracker.




newtekie1 said:


> And I agree with them, they shouldn't, however what percentage is even doing this?  Is it even 25%?  And how many of those are doing it to play DVDs specifically?  No, I'd really like to know, because I don't.


I have no idea and I doubt Nintendo does either.




newtekie1 said:


> And as I said, their DRM was so shitty it doesn't even register on pirate sites as DRM...


Ricochet Infinity is shareware with a 30 minute limit.  On that site, it should say "Serial" under protection.  If you don't believe me, just download it yourself.  It's only like 30 MiB.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jun 6, 2010)

Nintendo Region Locks their Consoles, but I however notice that using homebrew the region locking is bypassed.


----------



## DaMulta (Jun 6, 2010)

WhiteLotus said:


> At a guess they go torrent hunting, search for all the torrents for MW2 and go by how many downloaded them.
> HOWEVER *WE ALL KNOW* that some torrents are fake/don't work/ or whatever so are unusable. Thus the people that actually downloaded the game may not have a working pirate copy, however are still counted in the total. Which in my opinion gives the over inflated numbers of piracy.




How many fake torrents you download? I never ever hit any of them for some reason.

I think most people don't know how to read the NFO file to tell them what to do.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 6, 2010)

DaMulta said:


> How many fake torrents you download? I never ever hit any of them for some reason.
> 
> I think most people don't know how to read the NFO file to tell them what to do.



It was a broad statement.

In short, number of downloads =/= number of pirates


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 6, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's just a byte number.  It doesn't tell you what torrent those bytes came from.  In fact, most trackers dispose of all information except the bytes downloaded and uploaded for security purposes.  The torrent client keeps the statistics for each individual torrent--that doesn't reach the tracker.



A tracker is specific to a torrent.




FordGT90Concept said:


> I have no idea and I doubt Nintendo does either.



Ok, so I fail to see how that proves that the DVD "DRM" on the Wii pisses people off and a large number are finding ways around it.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Ricochet Infinity is shareware with a 30 minute limit.  On that site, it should say "Serial" under protection.  If you don't believe me, just download it yourself.  It's only like 30 MiB.



Ok, so what have we proven?  That a program without DRM, and a program that uses a Serial have almost identical piracy rates...soooo...we've established that your idea about using serials wouldn't work.  See how things come full circle!  Serials were one of the first forms of DRM, and they are always the easiest to defeat, which is why they aren't relied on anymore in the industry, and why they aren't even considered a form of protection on piracy sites.



WhiteLotus said:


> It was a broad statement.
> 
> In short, number of downloads =/= number of pirates



I'm pretty sure they download the torrents themselves to make sure they are not fake, or at least read the comments as it is pretty easy to tell by that.  I've never once downloaded a fake torrent.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 6, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Ok, so I fail to see how that proves that the DVD "DRM" on the Wii pisses people off and a large number are finding ways around it.


The DRM circumvention happens by loading Linux and using Linux to play emulated games (which they should be buying via Virtual Console).  The exclusion of a DVD player just adds more incentive to get Linux on the system.




newtekie1 said:


> Ok, so what have we proven?  That a program without DRM, and a program that uses a Serial have almost identical piracy rates...soooo...we've established that your idea about using serials wouldn't work.  See how things come full circle!  Serials were one of the first forms of DRM, and they are always the easiest to defeat, which is why they aren't relied on anymore in the industry, and why they aren't even considered a form of protection on piracy sites.


I would be thrilled if all games were 100% DRM free.  The serial system for online play is the only form of DRM that makes sense to me (it is justified on the balance sheet and has a greater than 97% effective rate).

Ehm, that site you linked to doesn't deal in keygens (very few do) which is why they don't mention it.  Distributing keygens are the best way to get lawyers all over you.

Serials only work if they are enforced (installers are a very weak form of enforcement; what I described is a strong form of enforcement).  By enforcement, I mean one user per known-to-be-existing key.


Like I said, try to play CS:S online without a legitimate key.  LAN and offline aren't costing Valve any money so no one (except maybe you) could really care less about that.


----------



## HossHuge (Jun 7, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> How are they packaged?  Are they burned copies of the CDs?  Do they work or do you need to go get a crack?  Did they duplicate the packaging?  Details! XD



Burnt copies in CD sleeves.  It's a 25*6 foot table filled in rows.  The place they sell them at is in the middle of a night market.  They pay kids to wait at both entrences to watch for cops. When the cops do come they just hide everything under the other street vendors booths.  Everybody is in on it and everybody knows it happens.

Are there limits on how much you can download where you are?  Cause here it's a free for all.  I can download 24/7, if i were so incline.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 7, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The DRM circumvention happens by loading Linux and using Linux to play emulated games (which they should be buying via Virtual Console).  The exclusion of a DVD player just adds more incentive to get Linux on the system.



Adds incentive, yes, but in no way backs up your claim that large numbers of people are doing it to bypass the DVD "DRM", which isn't really DRM anyway...




FordGT90Concept said:


> I would be thrilled if all games were 100% DRM free.  The serial system for online play is the only form of DRM that makes sense to me (it is justified on the balance sheet and has a greater than 97% effective rate).
> 
> Ehm, that site you linked to doesn't deal in keygens (very few do) which is why they don't mention it.  Distributing keygens are the best way to get lawyers all over you.



No, they don't distribute keygens or bother to because it is so insanely easy to just include a serial txt file with the game when you download it.  And if you already have it and want to distribute it, you include the key.  Serial keys don't work.

97% effective rate, can you even come close to proving that?  I don't think so.  Serial keys do not work, your own example shows that, at least real forms of DRM keep the piracy rate down to the ~50% mark.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Serials only work if they are enforced (installers are a very weak form of enforcement; what I described is a strong form of enforcement).  By enforcement, I mean one user per known-to-be-existing key.



And there is no way to enforce them on offline games, so what do you propose with those?  Nothing isn't an option, because piracy rates obviously run rampent without DRM.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Like I said, try to play CS:S online without a legitimate key.  LAN and offline aren't costing Valve any money so no one (except maybe you) could really care less about that.



Ok, I will try...yep I can play online with my CS:S copy without a valide key, because it doesn't use a serial key system...  It uses an account system via steam, and binding games to the account.  Did I already cover this, or are we back to you not reading my posts again?


----------



## Dippyskoodlez (Jun 7, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And the only reason DRM exists is because of pirates so your argument is null. I won't buy something because of DRM but I understand why publishers are going this route.




The only problem is, this isn't an endless loop.

The DRM will always lose. I already don't buy any games that aren't on steam/Blizzard, or flat out DRM free.

I'll happily pass on a game thats bloated with DRM. Got plenty of others.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Distributing keygens are the best way to get lawyers all over you.



Keygens lol.

you're a few years behind the scene already.


----------



## entropy13 (Jun 7, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> A tracker is specific to a torrent.



Nope. If you want it to "fix" it for you, it's:

"A tracker is specific to a specific group of torrents which is specified for that specific tracker"

In the case of "open trackers", it's just about "each and every available torrent out there"


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> No, they don't distribute keygens or bother to because it is so insanely easy to just include a serial txt file with the game when you download it.  And if you already have it and want to distribute it, you include the key.  Serial keys don't work.


And that's why pirate copies are so easy to spot.  They have what, at most 10 keys in the *.nfo.  If the system automatically bars those 10 keys from working, no more online gaming for you.  That's why only a keygen is effective but, because it only OKs keys that are known to exist, the likelihood of a keygen finding a key that is a) not in use and b) awaiting activation are very remote.  If you manage to find one, whoever legitimately owns that key need only send in a picture of a manual with the key printed on it to be issued a new key and their old key killed (stopping the pirate from playing).  As I said, 97%+ effective.  There's small windows where someone could play the game illegitimately but they'll close as fast as they open.

And remember, all this happens server-side.  If the data points don't line up, you don't get access.  Not to mention, if you tried to apply this system to offline/LAN like they did with AC2, the cracking groups will patch it out or otherwise render it ineffective.




newtekie1 said:


> 97% effective rate, can you even come close to proving that?  I don't think so.  Serial keys do not work, your own example shows that, at least real forms of DRM keep the piracy rate down to the ~50% mark.


I could setup a mock system if you'd like.  See if you can cheat the system for more than a day. 




newtekie1 said:


> And there is no way to enforce them on offline games, so what do you propose with those?  Nothing isn't an option, because piracy rates obviously run rampent without DRM.


As I said many times, offline and LAN doesn't concern me, only online where it costs money.  As Ricochet Infinity vs. World of Goo demonstrated, DRM appears to have no impact on piracy.

That system could be applied to offline and LAN content but doing so creates the same problem as AC2: people requiring an interet account to play.  That doesn't make sense if you are not looking to play online; hence, why I oppose it.




newtekie1 said:


> Ok, I will try...yep I can play online with my CS:S copy without a valide key, because it doesn't use a serial key system...  It uses an account system via steam, and binding games to the account.  Did I already cover this, or are we back to you not reading my posts again?


Yes, everything "Source" operates through Steam.  If the key you have on on your steam account isn't good, no game for you.




HossHuge said:


> Burnt copies in CD sleeves.  It's a 25*6 foot table filled in rows.  The place they sell them at is in the middle of a night market.  They pay kids to wait at both entrences to watch for cops. When the cops do come they just hide everything under the other street vendors booths.  Everybody is in on it and everybody knows it happens.
> 
> Are there limits on how much you can download where you are?  Cause here it's a free for all.  I can download 24/7, if i were so incline.


Do they work?  Stick 'em in, install, and do they play without anything special?


I can download 24/7 here too as long as there isn't a bad storm in the area.


----------



## shevanel (Jun 7, 2010)

Look on the bay, there are more pirated console and hand held games than PC games. Most of the popular PC games that are pirated are very popular games that have record sales.


----------



## Dippyskoodlez (Jun 7, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> And remember, all this happens server-side.  If the data points don't line up, you don't get access.  Not to mention, if you tried to apply this system to offline/LAN like they did with AC2, the cracking groups will patch it out or otherwise render it ineffective.



Generally multiplayer is assumed to not work with pirated copys.. if it does, you got some really bad DRM.  Most people don't pirate TO play multiplayer tho 



> Do they work?  Stick 'em in, install, and do they play without anything special?



Pirates are crafty people.

I have a copy of Half life 2 that they shoehorned into the shell of that DX9 to OGL converter for mac. There were bugs, but it was essentially an independent Mac version of HL2[This was well before Steam for mac was even thought of].

Ever use the Windows Live recovery discs? Pirates did it first.


----------



## HossHuge (Jun 7, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Do they work?  Stick 'em in, install, and do they play without anything special?I can download 24/7 here too as long as there isn't a bad storm in the area.



I have never bought one cause there all in Chinese so I can't really comment on if they work or not but I can tell you it's the busiest place at the market and they have been selling there for years.  

My Taiwanese brother-in-law is 25 and he has never bought a video game in his life (And he plays all the time).  The city I live in has about 800 000 people and there are 4 shops that sell newer video games and their selection is terrible.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2010)

There's the primary source (China, figures) for piracy. 

Few stores carry PC games in the USA except for the speciality stores like GameStop.  Generally, their selection isn't very great having only recent, major releases.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 7, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> And that's why pirate copies are so easy to spot.  They have what, at most 10 keys in the *.nfo.  If the system automatically bars those 10 keys from working, no more online gaming for you.  That's why only a keygen is effective but, because it only OKs keys that are known to exist, the likelihood of a keygen finding a key that is a) not in use and b) awaiting activation are very remote.  If you manage to find one, whoever legitimately owns that key need only send in a picture of a manual with the key printed on it to be issued a new key and their old key killed (stopping the pirate from playing).  As I said, 97%+ effective.  There's small windows where someone could play the game illegitimately but they'll close as fast as they open.
> 
> And remember, all this happens server-side.  If the data points don't line up, you don't get access.  Not to mention, if you tried to apply this system to offline/LAN like they did with AC2, the cracking groups will patch it out or otherwise render it ineffective.



Yes, no more online gaming, but again pirates generally don't care about online gaming, or even care about getting patches.

Furthermore, your system, which you seem to think would be better for the end user, creates some problems for the legit user as well, that have already been documented with a system like this many times in the past.

1.) The server/publisher has no way of knowing what keys are waiting activation, or rather what keys have been purchased legally.  They don't know what keys are still sitting in a box on the shelf, and what keys have actually been purchased by a customer.  Yes, they can track the keys they have produced, but that is useless, because you can't tell if a real customer has that key or a pirate.

2.) If a pirate with a keygen gets the key before the customer, or the key is leaked with the download, when the customer buys the copy associated with that key, their shiney new $60 is worthless before they even bought it...:shadedshu

3.) Even if the legit users copy works when they get it, there is no guarantee that the pirates won't start using their key eventually, locking them out of their game, making them either buy it again or stop playing it.  We all know that publishers can't handle DRM properly, so to think that they would simply re-issue a key is insane.  There are already plenty of people facing this same problem with the activation systems, which is again, essentially what you are propossing, except you want it to re-activate every time the game does anything online...

4.) In the few times that re-issuing a key is as easy as sending in some proof that you own the game, usually that proof is included with the download.  So if a scan of the manual is required, a scan of the manual is included with the download.  I've even seen some elaborate, that included a scan of the manual, that let you put the serial number that had been banned into a text field and generated a jpeg of the manual with that key, so you could send that and get a new "legit" key.





FordGT90Concept said:


> I could setup a mock system if you'd like.  See if you can cheat the system for more than a day.



No need, I already know it isn't nearly 97% effective, just because you say it is doesn't mean it is.



FordGT90Concept said:


> As I said many times, offline and LAN doesn't concern me, only online where it costs money.  As Ricochet Infinity vs. World of Goo demonstrated, DRM appears to have no impact on piracy.



And as I said, all that proves is that Serials have no effect on piracy, because they are the weakest form of "DRM", and I hesitate to even call them that anymore.



FordGT90Concept said:


> That system could be applied to offline and LAN content but doing so creates the same problem as AC2: people requiring an interet account to play.  That doesn't make sense if you are not looking to play online; hence, why I oppose it.



Yet you've used CS:S several times, which requires an internet connection to install and activate with a steam account.  There was a big fuss when steam games started hitting the market about needing an internet connection to install them, but people got over it very quickly, because you don't need an internet connection to keep playing them.  Needing a constant insterent connection doesn't make sense, but needing one to activate the software once does make sense.




FordGT90Concept said:


> Yes, everything "Source" operates through Steam.  If the key you have on on your steam account isn't good, no game for you.



That isn't how it works, at least not with native steam games like CS:S.  Native Steam games do not have a key, they are linked to your Steam account.  Somewhere out there on Valve's servers is a list with my Steam account in it, and what games I own.  No keys involved.  When you buy a retail Steam game, such as the Orange Box for example, it does come with a code, but it is more of a redemption code that tells the servers to link the games to your account.  When you switch to offline mode that data is cached in the steam client so you can still play your games.


----------



## WhiteLotus (Jun 7, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> I'm pretty sure they download the torrents themselves to make sure they are not fake, or at least read the comments as it is pretty easy to tell by that.  I've never once downloaded a fake torrent.



Then they themselves would be guilty of pirating.

Plus, why would they ignore the other numbers, those added extras further fuel their reasoning behind ever extravagant DRM.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2010)

@newtekie1: I addressed all those theoretical points in my previous posts.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 7, 2010)

FordGT90Concept said:


> @newtekie1: I addressed all those theoretical points in my previous posts.



No you didn't, you didn't address a single one of them.

Where did you address the publisher not knowing what copies have actually sold and which haven't after they've left the factory?

Where have you addressed the hassle caused by a pirate stealing a legit users key?  You want to talk about the minor hassle of requiring a disc in a drive being unacceptable, but requiring the user jump through hoops when their key is flagged as pirated is acceptable?

Where did you address the possibility of the pirates fooling the system to get legit keys?



WhiteLotus said:


> Then they themselves would be guilty of pirating.
> 
> Plus, why would they ignore the other numbers, those added extras further fuel their reasoning behind ever extravagant DRM.



Yep, they sure would.

And there isn't a reliable way to track those other numbers, so they aren't included, and they are not for or against DRM, this isn't the publishers releasing these numbers, it was an independant site that was just talking about the amount of pirated copies of various games.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 7, 2010)

i think you guys should just take this to PM. it is turning into a pissing contest over who knows more about what.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 7, 2010)

And fill up my already dwindling PM inbox space?  No way, not worth it, I'll just let it die instead.


----------



## lemode (Jun 7, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i think you guys should just take this to PM. it is turning into a pissing contest over who knows more about what.



I agree...I'm tired of their endless walls of text.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 7, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> Where did you address the publisher not knowing what copies have actually sold and which haven't after they've left the factory?


As I stated, there is a small window where a pirate could use the game if he got lucky on which keys are on the record as available.  A 25 digit alphanumeric code (Windows and Steam use that), there are more than 21,175,823,681,357,508,476,708,062,516,991,000,000,000,000,000,000 (more than half a googol) keys.  Less than 10,000,000 at most would be authorized at once (initial product launch).  The odds of a pirate getting lucky are extremely improbable.  The moment the key is printed on the machining floor or sold via an online transaction, it is added to the database.




newtekie1 said:


> Where have you addressed the hassle caused by a pirate stealing a legit users key?


If, by freak chance, someone did manage to get a hold of a working key illegally, the legitimate owner won't be happy and will contact the publisher.  As I stated previously, the customer shows proof of ownership, the existing key is invalidated, and the customer is given a new key.  Again, the likelihood of this happening, except on copies where the key was publicly shared, are staggeringly small.




newtekie1 said:


> You want to talk about the minor hassle of requiring a disc in a drive being unacceptable, but requiring the user jump through hoops when their key is flagged as pirated is acceptable?


Odds are less than 2.1x10^43 that it will ever happen.  In other words, everyone on Earth (7 billion people) would have to buy a copy of it at least 302,511,766,876,535,835,381,543,750,242,730 times before it is likely to become an issue.




newtekie1 said:


> Where did you address the possibility of the pirates fooling the system to get legit keys?


The only way that could happen is if it were an employee of the company, in which case, he/she would be fired.  Everything happens internally so if they fool the system, they're not actually using official servers (out of the publishers control).


----------



## Gzero (Jun 7, 2010)

Surely you guys can agree that using this to tether gamers to be online at all times just so they can save their game is unfair on the consumer especially when times you usually choose to play single player games are when your net might be unavailable or your anti social and don't have net access anyway (looking at you ACII/C&C)?

Applying multiplayer game protections to single player games is not the solution.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jun 7, 2010)

ok this is how this is going to go. newtekie and ford each have 2 more replys to eachother. consider it final arguments. after that the debate is over. make them good.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jun 7, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> ok this is how this is going to go. newtekie and ford each have 2 more replys to eachother. consider it final arguments. after that the debate is over. make them good.



Hah, I'm good, I got my point accoss long ago, no point in continuing to discuss it.  I've already unsubscribe from the thread.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jun 25, 2010)

Authorizations on Mass Effect appear to not time out:






I first installed it back in March of 2009 (still authorized but erased by format).
The second install was between August and December 2009 (still authorized but erased by format).
The third was back in January (the pic is of this deauthorization).

If that authorization count ever resets, it isn't for more than a year.  More likely, they never expire so you're basically screwed if you forget to deauthorize. 




newtekie1 said:


> Never...most games allow multiple re-installs, not just one.  So I never have to worry about that, and most reset the install limit after a certain amount of time, in fact I don't know a game that doesn't.


Now you do (as do I), unfortunately.


----------



## Mr McC (Jun 25, 2010)

Piracy isn't the problem and, to date, no method of DRM has prevented piracy, indeed, it could be argued that in certain cases draconian DRM has actually encouraged piracy. Like I said, piracy isn't the problem: consumers are the problem. I was disgusted to see Assassin's Creed II amongst the Steam bestseller list. No amount of complaining or discontent will have any impact while people are still willing to buy games with this crap. It's all a question of where you draw the line, but too many people are happy to allow the companies to turn the acquisition of a pc game into a lease rather than a purchase, signing away the right of first sale and putting up with a host of associated problems, such as poor server connection or installation limits, simply because they have to have the latest and greatest console port. 

That said, even if it is a futile gesture, I will not buy any games containing this bullshit. Steam and disk checks are enough to prevent the casual pirate and given that professional pirates will crack anything, any further "security" is exclusively focused on controlling the secondhand market, a practice that I refuse to condone, but then again, each to their own.


----------



## mdsx1950 (Jun 25, 2010)

Mr McC said:


> Piracy isn't the problem and, to date, no method of DRM has prevented piracy, indeed, it could be argued that in certain cases draconian DRM has actually encouraged piracy..



+1

I still don't know why companies spend time and effort on DRM when the game is anyways going to get cracked. Today i noticed that Transformers WFC has been cracked.  Just about 3 days after release.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jun 25, 2010)

I think the CD Key for Online Playing should be enough, And it should only be used once, aka activate the game for online play. Game shouldn't have to be inserted into the drive when it is fully installed, nor a game should have built in rootkits or tool detection software.  Windows OS allows an OS to be installed to a single machine up to 10 times before Calling MS is required. After 100 days has passed you dont have to call them to install the software again, but once you install again the counter expires and if you install yet again within 100 days it requires a call.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jun 25, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> I think the CD Key for Online Playing should be enough, And it should only be used once, aka activate the game for online play. Game shouldn't have to be inserted into the drive when it is fully installed, nor a game should have built in rootkits or tool detection software.  Windows OS allows an OS to be installed to a single machine up to 10 times before Calling MS is required. After 100 days has passed you dont have to call them to install the software again, but once you install again the counter expires and if you install yet again within 100 days it requires a call.



I have to call every time now. Thanks for the info man!

On that note I would like a mod to please lock this thread. The war is over...


----------



## wahdangun (Jun 25, 2010)

Mr McC said:


> Piracy isn't the problem and, to date, no method of DRM has prevented piracy, indeed, it could be argued that in certain cases draconian DRM has actually encouraged piracy. Like I said, piracy isn't the problem: consumers are the problem. I was disgusted to see Assassin's Creed II amongst the Steam bestseller list. No amount of complaining or discontent will have any impact while people are still willing to buy games with this crap. It's all a question of where you draw the line, but too many people are happy to allow the companies to turn the acquisition of a pc game into a lease rather than a purchase, signing away the right of first sale and putting up with a host of associated problems, such as poor server connection or installation limits, simply because they have to have the latest and greatest console port.
> 
> That said, even if it is a futile gesture, I will not buy any games containing this bullshit. Steam and disk checks are enough to prevent the casual pirate and given that professional pirates will crack anything, any further "security" is exclusively focused on controlling the secondhand market, a practice that I refuse to condone, but then again, each to their own.



but you forget that average joe doesn't know or care about DRM, so if they have good connection to play assain creed, they will play it and buy it regardless  the DRM.

and actually the DRM function is to prevent casual pirate


----------



## DonInKansas (Jun 25, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I have to call every time now. Thanks for the info man!
> 
> On that note I would like a mod to please lock this thread. The war is over...



It's your thread.  Close it yourself under Thread Tools.


----------



## newconroer (Jun 25, 2010)

wahdangun said:


> but you forget that average joe doesn't know or care about DRM, so if they have good connection to play assain creed, they will play it and buy it regardless  the DRM.
> 
> and actually the DRM function is to prevent casual pirate



Right. The average Joe wouldn't be capable of finding a solution; and the 'expert' crackers, would be forced to put more time and effort than they normally would. Assassin's Creed II was a perfect example. And all that time the pirates and their beloved crackers spent trying to beat the system, your average Joe was out buying the game having resigned themselves to the reality that the crack may never come, or they just don't want to wait any longer to play the game. 

When games are cracked before they even hit the retail shelves, that's a massive blow to the market. Any extra time they can get, is a highly sought after luxury. This recent DRM system helps to achieve that, and it doesn't penalize the legitimate users, it penalizes pirates - if only for a short duration-. 

The 'I don't have an internet connection' argument is about as valid as a rap group in the hard rock hall of fame. If you can afford a system to play the latest and hardware demanding games, you can afford internet. 

In the end, the only real opposition to these methods is by either pirates themselves, or bad attitude persons who think that them cutting off their nose to spite their face, is really going to impress large gaming corporations. All the while they act like children, other people are happily playing the game(s). 

Personally I think the real culprit is the -left to run rampant- websites such as MegaUpload, Hotfile, Rapidshare and all the popular Torrent engines, RSLOG etc. If I had the power, I'd shut the majority of the sites down, and start lashing out with nasty penalties on site owners, hosting groups, datacenters and ISPs. We all know what these places do, we all know their real purpose, but they squeeze out of litigation because of loop holes. They could do more to actively monitor the contents(even if only one small random piece of data) to see if it matches with known files related to certain content. But they don't. They just wait till cyber-narcs blow the whistle and then they react just to cover their own asses.


----------



## erocker (Jun 25, 2010)

TheMailMan78 said:


> On that note I would like a mod to please lock this thread. The war is over...



By your command.


----------

