# Korean mom meeting and say goodbye to her deceased daughter one last time in VR



## xkm1948 (Feb 11, 2020)

Mother Meets Recreation of Her Deceased Child in VR
					

South Korean TV broadcaster MBC recently aired a Korean language documentary that centers on a family’s loss of their young daughter, seven-year-old Nayeon. Using the power of photogrammetry, motion capture, and virtual reality, the team recreated Nayeon for one last goodbye with the family’s...




					www.roadtovr.com
				














Definitely a novel use of VR, letting people saying farewell to their deseased loved ones for one last time. There is always regrets in life for whatever reason. Some one like this mom just needs one last closure with her daughter. Honestly probably not the best thing for everyone. It is bad enough for say goodbye already.


Anyway I thought it is a novel use of VR so just wanna share.


With better and better VR visuals and better AI based speech system, there maybe more applications like this.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

That is just Ducking creepy and sick! God GOD is there NOTHING they wont mess with?


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## Flanker (Feb 11, 2020)

I suppose this can be used as some type of therapy to help people grieve for their lost ones. OTOH it can cross some cultural taboo, like animating the dead type of wrong.


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## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> That is just Ducking creepy and sick! God GOD is there NOTHING they wont mess with?



I'll let the mom decide that one.


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## Bones (Feb 11, 2020)

One word for this:
Caprica.

And this is how our Cylon problem starts.........


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

Flanker said:


> I suppose this can be used as some type of therapy to help people grieve for their lost ones. OTOH it can cross some cultural taboo, like animating the dead type of wrong.



How are they going to grieve for the bill they get for the mo-cap and the programming that goes into it.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2020)

Wow. Folks, the OP shared something very touching and heart felt, a way for technology to help a grieving mother close a painful chapter in life, and you're mocking that? Seriously? 

Have some self-respect and dignity... Not cool peeps, not cool at all.


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## hat (Feb 11, 2020)

I, uh, yeah... I don't think this is a good idea... to be honest, I find this downright disturbing.


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## Kissamies (Feb 11, 2020)

That's kinda sad. If that becomes mainstream, I'll put my Oculus on and say goodbye to my cousin, he died when I was serving on the army.


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wow. Folks, the OP shared something very touching and heart felt, a way for technology to help a grieving mother close a painful chapter in life, and you're mocking that? Seriously?
> 
> Have some self-respect and dignity... Not cool peeps, not cool at all.



Try reading the article. Even the author still has his doubts



> Putting aside *the obvious exploitation factor of reuniting a mother with her deceased child for television viewers*—Nayeon even pulls at the heartstrings by telling her father to stop smoking, and her siblings not to fight so much— recreating a deceased loved one in such high fidelity raises some ethical concerns, and they’re ones we simply don’t have clear answers to yet. *Whether conjuring virtual doppelgangers of lost loved ones may one day be considered an unnecessary re-traumatization*, or *a valid coping mechanism* to help overcome tragedy, *we just can’t say for now*.
> 
> After translating each subtitle, my first cynical instincts to label this a blatantly insensitive puppeteering of a dead child are mostly gone. It’s not perfect, but it makes sense to me on some level.



They are other articles about it as well that raise a lot more questions and have quotes of the mothers re-actions. Is she going to remember her real daughter now or re-created series of the AI. One of the disturbing ones is profiteering from dead people.


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## GamerGuy (Feb 11, 2020)

I guess it's up to the mother to decide, we're certainly NOT the ones to judge. IF it allows her to bid a final farewell to her daughter and close this painful chapter of her life, who are we to say otherwise?


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## dorsetknob (Feb 11, 2020)

Hm  just had a Buisness idea !

Presenting

" My Last Will and Testmony Interactive VRtm "


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## R0H1T (Feb 11, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Try reading the article. Even the author still has his doubts


Yes & the author simply has no idea about whether it will work or not, in the end however a net-positive impact is welcome. Though just to be clear people look towards lots of things in life, to get them away from some/many of the challenges they face daily.* Video games* being a prime example!


Xzibit said:


> One of the disturbing ones is profiteering from dead people.


Not any worse than conning the *living ones*, in fact that's much worse!


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## hat (Feb 11, 2020)

R0H1T said:


> Yes & the author simply has no idea about whether it will work or not, in the end however a net-positive impact is welcome. Though just to be clear people look towards lots of things in life, to get them away from some/many of the challenges they face daily.* Video games* being a prime example!



No, it isn't. There's a wide difference between playing a video game to conjuring an interactive replica of a deceased  relative...

Maybe it might work for some people... but it creeps me the hell out, man.


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## Bones (Feb 11, 2020)

hat said:


> No, it isn't. There's a wide difference between playing a video game to conjuring an interactive replica of a deceased  relative...
> 
> Maybe it might work for some people...* but it creeps me the hell out, man.*


My thoughts exactly...... 
Creeeeeepy.


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## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2020)

hat said:


> I, uh, yeah... I don't think this is a good idea... to be honest, I find this downright disturbing.



I wouldn't like this either.  But I feel it's not our place to make that decision beyond our personal selves.


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

R0H1T said:


> Not any worse than conning the *living ones*, in fact that's much worse!



Isn't that what shes doing to her mind. She went on this long journey to feed information and script scenarios to programmers to fool herself virtualy after 4 yrs. 

What if the little girl didn't want to be brought back as a scripted mo-cap A.I. Where is the VR child services at ?

Its dark. What if the situation is a child doesn't like their parent and tragically the child passes. Parents can't handle their passing and use this to re-write their relationship to feel better. Benefits the survivor but not the decease.


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## AsRock (Feb 11, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I wouldn't like this either.  But I feel it's not our place to make that decision beyond our personal selves.



Yup deal with it ( part of life ), as next step is that t get a option to keep seeing lost love one,  at price of course.


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## xkm1948 (Feb 11, 2020)

In another application: i think many historical events will soon be able to be experienced forst hand for education purpose. Like french revolution, signing declaration of independence. Just the like the moon landing experience before.



Xzibit said:


> Isn't that what shes doing to her mind. She went on this long journey to feed information and script scenarios to programmers to fool herself virtualy after 4 yrs.
> 
> What if the little girl didn't want to be brought back as a scripted mo-cap A.I. Where is the VR child services at ?
> 
> Its dark. What if the situation is a child doesn't like their parent and tragically the child passes. Parents can't handle their passing and use this to re-write their relationship to feel better. Benefits the survivor but not the decease.



The dead can’t feel or tell anything. If it is of any service to the living there is a market.

This is a prime of example of “get off your morale high horse” where many westerners simply LOVE to ride


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 11, 2020)

Not my place to tell any parent how to grieve for their child but while I can see that the people behind this mean well, there is also a potential side effect that bereaved parents who might be driven absolutely insane from grief gain some sort of mental attachment to the loved one thats been 'bought back' for that final goodbye and try to carry on with regular life with the A.i. --- This isnt good because you never come to terms with what happened, get over the grief and move on with life.

People will use this as a way to fill that empty void in their heart/soul that the deceased left and used like a drug or coping mechanism. --- I cant agree with this use of the tech in that situation. People will just become depressed hermits and society will just collapse in on itself


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## phanbuey (Feb 11, 2020)

As a parent, this traumatized me.  I can't even imagine; but if I had to, then I'm not sure I would want to deal with it like this.  Seems a bit like instead of letting the scar heal, opening the wound and then poking inside it a bit.

Interesting for sure (in a black-mirror-going-to-be-thinking-about-this-all-day kind of way).


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## Chomiq (Feb 11, 2020)

If it gives people closure I can't be against it.


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## dirtyferret (Feb 11, 2020)

phanbuey said:


> As a parent, this traumatized me.  I can't even imagine; but if I had to, then I'm not sure I would want to deal with it like this.  Seems a bit like instead of letting the scar heal, opening the wound and then poking inside it a bit.
> 
> Interesting for sure (in a black-mirror-going-to-be-thinking-about-this-all-day kind of way).


agreed and I can also see less then scrupulous companies using this to take advantage of grieving parents


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## Eskimonster (Feb 11, 2020)

i lost my brother when he was 21, seeing him in VR would rip up all the old wounds again.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

Yeah this is just too creepy.
Haven't they heard of the saying, Rest in piece? 
How can one rest in piece if you are raising them from the dead? 
It's macabre and Creepy IMHO and I would never do such a thing. It's almost like digging them up from the grave.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Try reading the article.


Thanks for the advice, now here's some for you; quit being so heartless and disrespectful.



Xzibit said:


> Even the author still has his doubts


That's not the point and you're smart enough to know that. How someone grieves is very personal business, and none of ours. 

Some folks here seem to be missing the point as well. So let's ask, have any of you lost a child of your own? Maybe lost someone you never got to say goodbye too? Maybe you should think very carefully about how you would feel in such a situation instead of marginalizing on something you barely understand.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Isn't that what shes doing to her mind. She went on this long journey to feed information and script scenarios to programmers to fool herself virtualy after 4 yrs.
> 
> What if the little girl didn't want to be brought back as a scripted mo-cap A.I. Where is the VR child services at ?
> 
> Its dark. What if the situation is a child doesn't like their parent and tragically the child passes. Parents can't handle their passing and use this to re-write their relationship to feel better. Benefits the survivor but not the decease.


Right.
This just seems way way to creepy.
Although in Star Trek there are Hollow Decks where your wildest dreams can come true ( No matter the sick level) so this just seems like that first step.
Wonder how long till the Porn industry finds out about this. Makes one think just what are we doing with all this new tech?.
This is creepy makes one think about the motives of the living and the lack of a spirituality in there life.
But who am I to judge? If this helps you then cool go for it. But where do we draw the line?
If this makes you feel good then maybe a blowup doll a room and a VR setup and you are golden!



lexluthermiester said:


> Thanks for the advice, now here's some for you; quit being so heartless and disrespectful.
> Some folks here seem to be missing the point as well. So let's ask, have any of you lost a child of your own? Maybe lost someone you never got to say goodbye too? Maybe you should think very carefully about how you would feel in such a situation instead of marginalizing on something you barely understand.


Okay first I'm not sure that anyone is being disrespectful or heartless.
This is pure dogma. You can NOT just use dead children and the fact that some have lost them and others have not. And we all EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH that is alive will loose or has lost someone this is just pure dogma.
Life is dealing with death so deal with it. Bring back the dead IMHO is JUST sick and diminishes there memory.
And it is even worse for you to use VR to bring back the dead or a dead child OMG. JMHO.

This Korean MOM should be seeking real HELP I mean REAL help. She just can not deal and this is just NOT healthy at all. Sigmund Freud is ROLLING in his GRAVE!


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> Okay first I'm not sure that anyone is being disrespectful or heartless.


You and others in this thread are openly mocking a grieving mother. To me, that is heartless and disrespectful.


trickson said:


> This is pure dogma. You can NOT just use dead children and the fact that some have lost them and others have not. And we all EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH that is alive will loose or has lost someone this is just pure dogma.


You have the right to claim that for yourself, not for others.


trickson said:


> Life is dealing with death so deal with it. Bring back the dead IMHO is JUST sick and diminishes there memory.


Is looking at photos or videos taken of the dead during life sick or diminish their memory?

This, like all other technologies that allow us to remember people we love and moments in the past, is just a tool. Whether YOU want to use it is your choice. You do not have the right to dictate to others how they feel and deal with the death of people they love or how they remember them.


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## dirtyferret (Feb 11, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> You and others in this thread are openly mocking a grieving mother. To me, that is heartless and disrespectful.



As a parent myself, I would never mock another grieving parent (or person).  Performed properly VR can aid a person in grief but if left unregulated I can see it easily going sideways and becoming unhealthy to that person in grief as well as becoming devastating mentally and financially.


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## freeagent (Feb 11, 2020)

I don’t know. I have two young boys and I cannot imagine having to say good bye to them. Let alone doing it through vr. I’d probably do myself in right after.


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## Deleted member 178884 (Feb 11, 2020)

I think it's a good use of the tech, it might be "deemed" as creepy, but if you feel that way you don't have to use it. For some people I could probably see this being effective therapy.


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## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> How can one rest in piece if you are raising them from the dead?



You do realize you aren't literally raising anything from the dead right?  It's more akin to an animated memory.  How is this any different from replaying a video or photo slideshow?  Or at worst, commisioning a painting?  She provided all the data.  This group just gave her disjointed collection of memories a form.

If it bothers you, don't use it.  What bothers me here is all those presuming to know what should bother us.


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## xkm1948 (Feb 11, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> You do realize you aren't literally raising anything from the dead right?  It's more akin to an animated memory.  How is this any different from replaying a video or photo slideshow?  Or at worst, commisioning a painting?  She provided all the data.  This group just gave her disjointed collection of memories a form.
> 
> If it bothers you, don't use it.  What bothers me here is all those presuming to know what should bother us.




I do agree with your last parts. Such eagerness to judge~


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

I think it is wrong.
You can openly mock me all you want.
I think tech can be taken to far and this is one of them moments.



Xx Tek Tip xX said:


> I think it's a good use of the tech, it might be "deemed" as creepy, but if you feel that way you don't have to use it. For some people I could probably see this being effective therapy.


So keep revisiting the death by bringing some VR image to life then suffer the pain when the power is turned off.
Yeah good one.
We have people for this they are call grief counselors or psychiatrists.



R-T-B said:


> You do realize you aren't literally raising anything from the dead right?  It's more akin to an animated memory.  How is this any different from replaying a video or photo slideshow?  Or at worst, commisioning a painting?  She provided all the data.  This group just gave her disjointed collection of memories a form.
> 
> If it bothers you, don't use it.  What bothers me here is all those presuming to know what should bother us.


Well if this is good for you then by all means go for it.
I am not telling anyone anything but my view on this you seem the judgmental one(s) Not me.
I thought this was a discussion about VR tech and I say that I feel this is abuse of tech is all.
What is next? PORN? Where do you draw the line here . This is full human Psyche being manipulated and tricked, This is what I feel and how I see it.
It's one thing to have a VR game or Movie but this? Come on this is creepy.



lexluthermiester said:


> Thanks for the advice, now here's some for you; quit being so heartless and disrespectful.
> 
> 
> That's not the point and you're smart enough to know that. How someone grieves is very personal business, and none of ours.
> ...


YEAH you are openly MOCKING and also saying people are not smart enough? (BY saying you are smart enough to get that) that is MOCKING  What the HELL would you call that micro aggression?
Just pointing out... No need to crack the shit crust. Jut pointing out you are just as judgmental as we.


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## Deleted member 178884 (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> So keep revisiting the death by bringing some VR image to life then suffer the pain when the power is turned off.


Then it provides temporary comfort, congratulations on finally coming to terms with it.


trickson said:


> We have people for this they are call grief counselors or psychiatrists.


And? Elaborate? Not everyone can benefit from counselling and it may not be beneficial to someone and it may work wonders on others.
It's quite funny at the amount of ignorance in this thread, which brings up back to the point of:
Don't like it? Don't use it!
Seriously though, if it doesn't benefit you in any form don't use it and stick to the old ways, this benefits others and not you quite evidently, so it's successful in some form, whether you like it or not.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

Xx Tek Tip xX said:


> Then it provides temporary comfort, congratulations on finally coming to terms with it.
> 
> And? Elaborate? Not everyone can benefit from counselling and it may not be beneficial to someone and it may work wonders on others.
> It's quite funny at the amount of ignorance in this thread, which brings up back to the point of:
> ...


OKAY first I am discussing this you are twisting it. Some how you miss the point. And calling me ignorant does NOT help your argument that is dogma.
My point is if this can be called therapy then who is to say that this therapy wont be used for other reasons?
You are, Since I am saying it is sick, thinking that I disagree with the use no I do not.
I would NOT do this no way first off. But I want to know where does this stop?
And you must admit there is a slight macabre air about this. I mean you are doing this just for YOU. seems a bit eccentric and really narcissistic to me is all.
I didn't get enough time, I didn't get to say the things I wanted, I,I,I,I,I!
OH WAIT now I can do it for real! I can finaly say good bye! I can see you once again! I ,I,I. That is classic narcissism. And to bring them back in VR well that is real clear.


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Thanks for the advice, now here's some for you; quit being so heartless and disrespectful.



You don't have to read or respond to my post if it disturbs you. You can re-create it in VR to please you soon enough.



lexluthermiester said:


> Some folks here seem to be missing the point as well. So let's ask, have any of you lost a child of your own? Maybe lost someone you never got to say goodbye too? *Maybe you should think very carefully about how you would feel in such a situation instead of marginalizing on something you barely understand.*



Would you and others like to provide your clinical psychology credentials?  Was one even provided for the family through this process?


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## Eskimonster (Feb 11, 2020)

this thread is getting disturbing


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> OKAY first I am discussing this you are twisting it. Some how you miss the point. And calling me ignorant does NOT help your argument that is dogma.
> My point is if this can be called therapy then who is to say that this therapy wont be used for other reasons?
> You are, Since I am saying it is sick, thinking that I disagree with the use no I do not.
> I would NOT do this no way first off. But I want to know where does this stop?
> ...



Which reminds me. In one of the articles the mom is quoted as saying, "The dream I always wanted".  As an outsider If she needed to go through this process 4 yrs after her little girls passing it makes me wonder if she was getting the proper help she needed in the first place.


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## Blitzr (Feb 11, 2020)

Subjectively, that's a great use of technology. Reminds me a little of the film_ Final Cut_ with Robin Williams, just not as dark.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> You don't have to read or respond to my post if it disturbs you. You can re-create it in VR to please you soon enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you and others like to provide your clinical psychology credentials?  Was one even provided for the family through this process?


Also yeah if my reply was so disturbing why was it being responded to? It could have been just ignored. 
No because all they care about is feelings. And bashing yours and mine is fine as long as they seem virtuous doing it.
Pathetic!



Eskimonster said:


> this thread is getting disturbing


It was from the OP.
I mean the very title denotes this is going to be disturbing and bizarre.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> YEAH you are openly MOCKING and also saying people are not smart enough? (BY saying you are smart enough to get that) that is MOCKING What the HELL would you call that micro aggression?
> Just pointing out... No need to crack the shit crust. Jut pointing out you are just as judgmental as we.


You need to re-read my comment, word by word. I think you overlooked the context.


trickson said:


> No because all they care about is feelings. And bashing yours and mine is fine as long as they seem virtuous doing it.
> Pathetic!


I didn't bash your feelings. You and other openly mocked the subject of the OP. I criticized you and others for it. Criticism is not the same a mockery.


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## robot zombie (Feb 11, 2020)

I'm not sure how to feel about it, or if it even really matters.

Storytime... when we were entering our 20's I lost a childhood friend to suicide. Nobody saw it coming. He was one of those people that had a way of bringing people together and making them feel accepted... very popular with a lot of different groups. Always happy and positive... on the outside. I remember him best as our star pitcher. That dude carried many games for us and had a way of uniting the team. One of those laid-back type-A's. Always on top of his game, but accepting of everyone. You wanted to be like him. We all did.

I don't think his mom ever recovered. A while later I had an opportunity to sit down with her and talk about things. I shared with her memories of him growing up and just what kind of person he was to all of us. I wanted her to know of the impact that he had on people... to see that he will never truly be gone from the world so long as we're around. At some point in this conversation, she said to me something I will never forget. She said "It is only through the things that people like you say about him that I have come to know what kind of person my son really was." It was a bittersweet moment. I think that she wanted to cry, but she didn't, and the pain I sensed in her was beyond tears. I can't imagine what it's like to be in that position... having to bury your own son and carry the grief and the guilt of feeling like you didn't know enough. I think she probably very deeply regrets not being closer to him. I'm sure that she blames herself for what happened... tells herself that maybe if she was there more he might have reached out instead of, well...

She now honors his memory by wishing him a happy birthday on his facebook. And people do still show up to toss up some positivity. Personally, I can't be seeing that. She's been doing this for nearly 10 years. Maybe it is her way of making up for lost time. I find it too painful to look at. The only times I've gone to look is when I've been very low myself, as a reminder of what can happen. I would say to myself "That will never be my mother."

Another friend of ours, his best friend, also never recovered. He fell off in a downward spiral spanning for years. He sought help and we all tried to be there for him, but in the end he fell off of the face of the earth and nobody even knows if he is still alive. It just... it changed him in ways that many of us who still talk cannot fully grasp. It's like for him, there is nowhere he can go that is far enough. Nothing is strong enough to take that pain away. I know what it's like to be in so much pain that you literally can't live. But to go through it continuously for years on end, with nothing really working and no end in sight... that sounds like hell on earth. I'd take anything to make that stop. I can picture the desperation. And in searching myself for answers to it... I just don't have them, you know? There is no guaranteed way to be okay when that is where you're at.

I think having to move on from your own child in that way is a different kind of grieving. I have lost people, too. Too many. Too many more since then. But meeting with her, I sensed a different kind of pain. You can say it is not healthy and that she should try to move past it. And generally I agree. The truth is just the truth... all you can really do is try to live with it. But I also think there are many ways to do that. So as much as I might find something like this very strange and off-putting, I don't feel like I'm in any position to judge. The only thing I have gleaned from my experience is that there are some kinds of pain that you just never, ever forget. You never truly move on. If something like this can be of some use to someone who is suffering through that, I can't begrudge them that. I think it's very much in the realm of personal morality. I may say that for me it is wrong and unhealthy. I truly think that it would be. But at the end of the day, when it comes to the pain of other people, I'm not the one who ultimately has to live with it. Nobody is forcing this option on people. They have to choose. And I think that is on them to do.

Maybe it's true that this mom hasn't been getting the help she needed. I think it is obvious she has not been shouldering the grief well. But who's to say what options she may already have exhausted to even be considering an option like this? How desperate do you need to be to do this? You just don't know. I can't imagine what must be going through her mind, or what life is like for someone like her to undergo an experience like that.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Which reminds me. In one of the articles the mom is quoted as saying, "The dream I always wanted".  As an outsider If she needed to go through this process 4 yrs after her little girls passing it makes me wonder if she was getting the proper help she needed in the first place.


Exactly! I mean right! 
She seems to be living in the past and not letting go is a bad sign something mentally is not right!


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> She seems to be living in the past and not letting go *is a bad sign something mentally is not right*!


That is your opinion, it would seem clear that not everyone agrees.



robot zombie said:


> She now honors his memory by wishing him a happy birthday on his facebook. And people do still show up to toss up some positivity. Personally, I can't be seeing that. She's been doing this for nearly 10 years. Maybe it is her way of making up for lost time.


Well said! And that is what works for her. This is no different than the subject of the OP. A mother grieving in her own way. Nothing wrong with that.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 11, 2020)

I, for one, wouldn't want my last memory of my child to be virtual.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> You need to re-read my comment, word by word. I think you overlooked the context.
> 
> I didn't bash your feelings. You and other openly mocked the subject of the OP. I criticized you and others for it. Criticism is not the same a mockery.


whatever I am point out how I feel and think of this tech. If that is MOCKING someone well that is on you.
Yes you insulted me and others here and I think you still continue to do so.
calling me a mocker and ignorant and stupid is the very definition of steeping on my feelings and bashing me.
I am saying this is creepy and sick and people need to ask when does tech become too much for the human psyche. Just my opinion.
Hell Google is dumbing the population down and still we have a sick need to use it as the all seeing all know eye of GOD! WHEN DOES IT STOP?
When should people seek real help not some fake VR help. Or maybe she should see a VR psychiatrist?

Maybe I should just Google it?


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> whatever I am point out how I feel and think of this tech. If that is MOCKING someone well that is on you.
> Yes you insulted me and others here and I think you still continue to do so.
> calling me a mocker and ignorant and stupid is the very definition of steeping on my feelings and bashing me.
> I am saying this is creepy and sick and people need to ask when does tech become too much for the human psyche. Just my opinion.
> ...


I'm not trying to diss on you. You and other users came down harshly on an interesting new way to use VR. It's perfectly innocent and harmless. All I'm saying is, let people grieve in their own way. We have no right to tell them how to feel or how to work through those feelings.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

So now Google , Youtube, FaceBook, Twitter and the Cloud can store YOUR loved one in VR! Come see them feel them LOVE them once again in our new VR facility!
For only $199.99 you can enjoy your loved one again. 

Breaking news VR facilities are HACKED and people are loosing there minds watching there loved ones being brutalized! LOL!


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> Exactly! I mean right!
> She seems to be living in the past and not letting go is a bad sign something mentally is not right!



Society. Oh, she fells good now. Yay, Keep ignore the possible signs of Mental Health until they are too late.


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## robot zombie (Feb 11, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I, for one, wouldn't want my last memory of my child to be virtual.


Reasonable way to look at it. Honestly, I don't think I would either. But in this case the parent really seems beyond that way of looking at it. She doesn't think or feel the same as we do.


I can see it another way. What if the last memories you had of your child only caused you pain and made you unable to see them for the good within them? What do you do when the best memories you have of someone only lead to suffering? That's not easy to deal with, because somewhere in your mind you want to embrace them, but instead every time you see a chance to, you register fear instead of peace. And with the way the mind works, it can program itself to make that response stronger over time. It becomes just another layer to the pain. It is no longer about the loss. You can internalize the loss perfectly and still be under the grips of that.

I could see a 'goodbye' like this as maybe helping to resolve that and allowing the person to re-integrate the real memories as something more positive. By forming a few new positive memories, not implicitly tied to the same pain, it might open some new pathways. Sort of creating a scenic route to get around that gridlocked highway and hopefully get where you're trying to go and proceed to really heal. Sometimes, that's just the way it goes.

Pain can rewire you, especially trauma. This is why it can be hard to gauge people's reactions, and why we often find eachother's coping mechanisms strange. Because not everyone is wired the same to begin with. We can think and say how we might react, but that's just how you're wired now. That can change very quickly. You see things differently when you're not directly subject to the same experience in the moment. There are pros and cons, but I want to highlight the gap in perception, because there is a huge difference between how we perceive things, and how this woman perceives things. What makes sense for us can easily have no bearing on her.


I also wonder... do you really see something like this as your last memory of your child? Or is it simply allowing a temporary suspension of disbelief in order to open certain doors? A lot of gray to how people actually perceive and internalize the experience. On one hand, I can see where people might see this as someone losing contact with reality and going further in, but then I am also familiar with the research on psychedelic therapy... so I can see how maybe it's not about believing that the experience is real, but rather meant as a means of integrating the emotions that it leaves you with in a more positive way. I think there is much that can be learned from having a simulated experience, so long as you understand that the goal is not to change your reality, but rather augment how you deal with it.

This is already the basis of a whole lot of trauma therapy - essentially re-writing things to make it so that a person presently unable to cope can take that first step forward and begin to become strong enough to fully face the actual reality of what they have and are still going through. It's very closely tied to a lot of the same methods that are already used in the therapy that people are recommending she go to instead. Simulated experiences are not new at all in the therapeutic world. What we have here is a new way of producing one. One that is more visceral and requires less effort on the part of the participant, which can be very important when we are talking about someone who is struggling to function amidst a steady flow of powerful emotions. If we had the capability to do this back then, the same people who came up with things that are now common practice would have been eager to put them to use and figure out how to use them to help people.

So to me, seeing something like this isn't surprising. I think it was bound to happen. I don't see it as good or bad. Just exploring new avenues of dealing with deep emotional pain and trauma. I think we ought to at least try. I don't think it's good to meet it with disgust. Caution and careful contemplation is better.

To me, it's like... when you're already in a place where a large part of your existence is already defined by reliving terrible memories, how much worse can it really get?


I also gotta address our problems with mental health right now. There has been this push for what I would call 'psuedo mental health' in pop culture, with a heavily narcissistic bend to it. Questioning it seemingly isn't allowed, which makes it hard to have the important conversations. There is a lot of venom and vitriol. I think that does a lot of damage. It's very superficial and encouraging of self-destructive attitudes. It is easy to muster hatred and disdain for it. But the knee jerk reaction to it is just as bad. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater in a really harsh way. It's no better to assume that something is a part of that same movement just because it only makes people feel better. Dealing with grief is inherently a self-serving endeavor. Doesn't make it any less vital. I don't think it's good that our answer to this mental health craze is to turn our backs reflexively. I can't bring myself to be that cynical, knowing that people may be left out in the cold for it.

This idea that we are too attached to our egos, and that somehow by recognizing that and pushing against it, we are somehow above the same process, really rubs me the wrong way. They are inseparable, and it serves many vital functions in making a person who they are. If you think that somehow you're above that, I got news for ya... 

If you actually read up on how narcissism works, you'll realize that if you confront a narcissist on being one, the most common response is denial. They will jump right to arguments for why they are not one, and turn it on to other people. If you truly rate people as a whole as being more narcissistic than you, you may just be the one yourself! The same traits that make someone a narcissist are absolutely vital defense mechanisms that we all learn at a very early age. It's how it is used that defines a narcissist. Not everything that is self-serving is implicitly narcissistic, not in the way that the term is often used, anyway. It's not "all things self-serving are bad". Sometimes that's exactly what a person needs. Doing something only to feel better does not always make you worse off. Everyone with a functioning ego does that all of the time. We actually can't function as unified entities otherwise. You would simply cease to exist. And at the same time be devoid of any judgement on others...

It's like "Look at all of these people, only caring about themselves! Look how I am not like them!" From the outside looking in, that is an interesting take.


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## trickson (Feb 11, 2020)

I just do not see how this can help anyone handle death.
If the person is dead and you know this then a VR of that dead person is nothing at all.
I mean this story is rife with all kinds of cry's for help.
SO bringing a fake VR version of your dead child to life to say good bye? This some how helps? I just can not see the connection.
In your mind you will see both the funeral the death and then this VR version will be right before your eyes!
Talk about mind *(king....


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## sepheronx (Feb 11, 2020)

My colleague had lost his daughter a couple years ago. She was 13 years old. Something like this while may give him the ability to hear her and see her again, he would also know that it just isn't her.  It may also cause emotions he previously decided to bottle up and I don't know if that is good or bad.  All I know is it's something that will never leave you. No matter what.

I know if one of my daughter's passed this wouldn't help me. I am a man of faith so I would rather keep my belief in hopes to see the loved ones again someday.  So I don't know if it would help me at all.

It's hard to say.  But this is me.  Only thing I would like to use this for is to see a virtual concert of the Partridge family since David Cassidy had passed.


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## Xzibit (Feb 11, 2020)

trickson said:


> I just do not see how this can help anyone handle death.
> If the person is dead and you know this then a VR of that dead person is nothing at all.
> *I mean this story is rife with all kinds of cry's for help*.
> SO bringing a fake VR version of your dead child to life to say good bye? This some how helps? I just can not see the connection.
> ...



If you read the articles that depict the Mom's experience prior to the girls death. She seams traumatized by the daughters illness which took a month long before taking her life. She seams to recall hospital interactions that were not pleasing to her (Kid not being comfortable).


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## trickson (Feb 12, 2020)

in 2012 my friends daughter (whom I had just spoke to and fixed her computer that very day) was killed by a drink driver, He (along with hundreds in the Santa Fe New Mexico community ) we devastated by the loss of 4 teen age children!
I remember going to his home the next day in tears with my wife we just could NOT even begin to imagine his pain.
I know bringing her back like this would only make it that much harder on him and his wife.
I did say good bye to her that night I just never knew it was going to be forever. she was such a bright young women that could play the piano AMAZINGLY too her dad got both of them 2 YES GRAN Pianos !
He had them both in his house they would play together and fill that place with beauty.
We all have losses in life but VR is NOT a way to solve your pain. It's just my honest opinion.

Damn don't be so angry just because my thoughts do not line with yours okay. WOW so much anger.... I did not know that this could cause that much anger OMG what a killer thread! 

I LOVE TPU!


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> My colleague had lost his daughter a couple years ago. She was 13 years old. Something like this while may give him the ability to hear her and see her again, he would also know that it just isn't her.  It may also cause emotions he previously decided to bottle up and I don't know if that is good or bad.  All I know is it's something that will never leave you. No matter what.


That's definitely a real concern. But is bottling them up any better or is that a person who simply appears to himself and others to be okay? What happens if those emotions are brought out unexpected later?

I think you kind of have to know going in that it's not real and that it isn't going to solve your problems. That's not the intent. It can only open a door. You yourself still have to let go and walk through. A VR trip isn't going to do that for you.

Sometimes certain emotions do need a way out of you. And that can manifest as its own kind of pain, but often that is a pain that can be dealt with. What I think would matter most for someone undergoing something like this to have a plan and a network of trained people and people close who care there to help coach them through it. I'm talking a fully professional, medical environment.

Everyone copes in their own ways. Some do it on their own. Sometimes we all need a little help. No shame in that, in my book. So long as you recognize what you're in for and there is a clear path that you're trying to walk.

That's the other side of it, I suppose. You can't just jump up and do something like this. You would need to prepare yourself. To go in thinking you're gonna do it and just feel better, is a recipe for disaster. It's another trauma waiting to happen.

My definition of trauma is simple. It's when something really terrible happens, that was until that moment completely outside of your reality... so far beyond it, in fact, that everything that defines you, the world, and life, can no longer be consolidated. It's an experience that undermined your whole conception of what it is to experience things. If you truly grasp that this is how things are going to be, and these terrible things can happen, it is still painful, but it doesn't have that lasting trauma.

This is how it's often approached, too. The point of reliving it in a controlled way is that the second time around, you have a chance to prepare for it and reach a point of acceptance that you never had a shot at before. As a part of dedicated counseling and therapy, this could be just another tool on their belt, and a very valuable one, at that.


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## DrCR (Feb 12, 2020)

Oh wow, I really hope whatever family goes down this path at least owns the developed assets, not the company. Otherwise said assets could appear in undesired contexts, no hacking involved.


trickson said:


> Breaking news VR facilities are HACKED and people are loosing there minds watching there loved ones being brutalized! LOL!


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

DrCR said:


> Oh wow, I really hope whatever family goes down this path at least owns the developed assets, not the company. Otherwise those art assets could appear in undesired contexts, no hacking involved.


I would hope, at least in the states, that it would be treated as part of someone's medical records. As in... it goes absolutely nowhere without consent of the patient. That's assuming that at some point this would ultimately be counted as part of a procedure. Wild-west would definitely be very bad.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 12, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> I also gotta address our problems with mental health right now. There has been this push for what I would call 'psuedo mental health' in pop culture, with a heavily narcissistic bend to it. Questioning it seemingly isn't allowed, which makes it hard to have the important conversations. There is a lot of venom and vitriol. I think that does a lot of damage. It's very superficial and encouraging of self-destructive attitudes. It is easy to muster hatred and disdain for it. But the knee jerk reaction to it is just as bad. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater in a really harsh way. It's no better to assume that something is a part of that same movement just because it only makes people feel better. Dealing with grief is inherently a self-serving endeavor. Doesn't make it any less vital. I don't think it's good that our answer to this mental health craze is to turn our backs reflexively. I can't bring myself to be that cynical, knowing that people may be left out in the cold for it.
> 
> This idea that we are too attached to our egos, and that somehow by recognizing that and pushing against it, we are somehow above the same process, really rubs me the wrong way. They are inseparable, and it serves many vital functions in making a person who they are. If you think that somehow you're above that, I got news for ya...
> 
> ...



All kinds of this.  As a global society, we could save so many people and so much money if we focused on treating people's mental health instead of creating and enforcing laws that are only there to clean up the pieces of the events that already took place.  I know this forum is not political but this particular topic is a pretty difficult one to actually discuss without delving in.

Like robot zombie said, mental health is really only discussed superficially.  While down in the nitty gritty, if you try to get help, you immediately get shunned and blacklisted by the people who tell you to get help.  It is a very cruel circle.  I once was one of the people who did the shunning, though in my much earlier years.  As I have grown older, I quickly came to realize that we are all carrying around our own baggage and keeping a few skeletons in our closet.

I feel for the mother, I do.  But I really don't think this was a very good idea.  The same thing could have been done while looking at a picture.  I do hope she found what she needed but I am afraid she didn't.  I would very much like to see this as one off experiment because I feel the drawbacks are going to very significantly outweigh the benefits.


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> All kinds of this.  As a global society, we could save so many people and so much money if we focused on treating people's mental health instead of creating and enforcing laws that are only there to clean up the pieces of the events that already took place.  I know this forum is not political but this particular topic is a pretty difficult one to actually discuss without delving in.
> 
> Like robot zombie said, mental health is really only discussed superficially.  While down in the nitty gritty, if you try to get help, you immediately get shunned and blacklisted by the people who tell you to get help.  It is a very cruel circle.  I once was one of the people who did the shunning, though in my much earlier years.  As I have grown older, I quickly came to realize that we are all carrying around our own baggage and keeping a few skeletons in our closet.


Definitely. It is a total corruption. My concern now is that in sort of popularizing this superficial mental heath, people who see the flaws in it end up turning away from the concept entirely. So the people who really need the help, as well as people who could be doing the helping instead deny what is right in front of them. I see a lot of people swinging to the same extremes that they do in politics. Somewhere in the middle, both sides have their uses.

And yeah... man getting older is crazy. The amount of baggage I have racked up these past 10 years has turned my whole way of seeing people upside down. I think it's been worth it, though. I don't wish to undo any of it. Which I think is how you're ultimately supposed to feel. And because of that I can see where other people are struggling.



> I feel for the mother, I do.  But I really don't think this was a very good idea.  The same thing could have been done while looking at a picture.  I do hope she found what she needed but I am afraid she didn't.  I would very much like to see this as one off experiment because I feel the drawbacks are going to very significantly outweigh the benefits.


I think it could just as easily be an extension of seeing the picture. As in, if the VR manifestation of this method is bad, then so was looking at the picture. And we have to start moving in another direction entirely. And maybe after trying this, that might indeed be the conclusion. It could be like a magnifying glass into an aspect of the psyche that we might have been taking for granted.

I don't believe that anybody finds what they need only through things like that. Even this VR stuff is a small thing in the big picture of coping with that level of grief. I think properly tempered and conceived, it might be of some help. But there does need to be a clear understanding of the reality and the actual impact before it can be put to use.

But because of that, I also think that there is a need for further study. But it needs to be done in a careful and controlled way. That goes back to pop mental health, where whatever people think is helpful is adopted and whatever people think is not is shunned, without ever getting shaken down by real research. It's a double-edge.


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## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Society. Oh, she fells good now. Yay, Keep ignore the possible signs of Mental Health until they are too late.



Yeah, I'll leave that up to real psyhciatrists to tell me it's harmful, not forumites on TPU, no offense.

In other breaking news, losing a child is bad for your mental health in general.



Xzibit said:


> Was one even provided for the family through this process?



Oh sheesh, should I get acredited with one for converting VHS tapes of old family memories of grandma too?  I mean, gotta make sure they aren't "living in the past."


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## Xzibit (Feb 12, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Yeah, I'll leave that up to real psyhciatrists to tell me it's harmful, not forumites on TPU, no offense.
> 
> In other breaking news, losing a child is bad for your mental health in general.



Funny cause i been more concerned about her mental health then others that are cheering VR tech.  Every ones got different priorities.

You might not want to venture into the VR sites that posted a form of this story. They are far more brutal than this thread.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 12, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> I think it could just as easily be an extension of seeing the picture. As in, if the VR manifestation of this method is bad, then so was looking at the picture. And we have to start moving in another direction entirely. And maybe after trying this, that might indeed be the conclusion. It could be like a magnifying glass into an aspect of the psyche that we might have been taking for granted.



I am more thinking of the digital assets staying where they are put and what happens when they get out.

I don't have children so I can't pretend to understand her position but if my wife were to go, I can't say I would even entertain this.

Additionally, I think the money would be better spent in enhancing "traditional" mental health therapy.  Let's get that right first.


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## trickson (Feb 12, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> I am more thinking of the digital assets staying where they are put and what happens when they get out.
> 
> I don't have children so I can't pretend to understand her position but if my wife were to go, I can't say I would even entertain this.
> 
> Additionally, I think the money would be better spent in enhancing "traditional" mental health therapy.  Let's get that right first.


I think I was saying this too just not as well I guess.
It seems to easy to take advantage of and or abuse. at every level from financial to emotional to mental. Just seems too risky too much playing GOD there has to be a point of healing and letting go and dealing and this women just hasn't done any of it. For years. How many times you think she can go BACK? How many times will she go back to the well to dig her dead child up and excusing it away saying I just wanted to teach her to ride a bike I never got that chance, Well NOW you CAN! Just step into this VR chamber and see your fantasy come to life! 
It's sick and can be used as fun or folly and this VR aspect is Folly! 
Just an observation and opinion.


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## Bones (Feb 12, 2020)

I can only speak for myself here.



sepheronx said:


> My colleague had lost his daughter a couple years ago. She was 13 years old. Something like this while may give him the ability to hear her and see her again, he would also know that it just isn't her.  It may also cause emotions he previously decided to bottle up and I don't know if that is good or bad.  All I know is it's something that will never leave you. No matter what.



It's something that stays until you, yourself are gone.
The passing of a loved one - It's part of not only who, but _what_ we are. It makes one appreciate the time we do have with them and it's never a good thing to see a parent laying their child to rest. As for the VR part, *to me at least* this isn't "Right" in that it's just not natural.

All my instincts says "No" to it.
It's a choice each of us has to make for themselves to view it as acceptable or not and nothing wrong with making that choice - In fact _it's your right to_ whether someone else agrees or not and you very well should.



sepheronx said:


> I know if one of my daughter's passed this wouldn't help me. I am a man of faith so I would rather keep my belief in hopes to see the loved ones again someday.  So I don't know if it would help me at all.


I too am a man of faith and hold the hope this really isn't "Goodbye" when it happens, it's better to have hope than not and helps deal with such loss.



sepheronx said:


> It's hard to say.  But this is me.  Only thing I would like to use this for is to see a virtual concert of the Partridge family since David Cassidy had passed.



A VR concert it's not so bad because it's not about saying goodbye or grieving, two totally different situations here.

Speaking of reference, If you haven't seen the movie "Caprica" you need to and this is why I made reference to it.
It deals directly with this very subject and how it all went totally sideways.

_You cannot replace what it is that makes us "Human"_ with the technological, you can try but in the end it always fails which it points out.
Guys I know it's just a Sci-Fi movie but still, it can make you think about things like this in a different light.
BTW it is a good movie.

This has potential to become something it shoudn't like so many other things you can name tech-related already have, that's just my worry about it.

Not gonna criticize anyone here, call folks out or anything else over it.
That's it on my part and I'm outta here.


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## Apocalypsee (Feb 12, 2020)

I dont know what to say about this, if the person like in the video feels better doing so then its her choice. 

If you asked me, the thing I miss the most is my late grandmother. When she passed 11 years ago, I will dream about her everytime I sleep (regardless of time, short nap in the afternoon or at night) and I will cry each time it happened. This goes on for three months. If you asked me would I want to met her again in VR the answer is NO. I dont want to experience that kind of trauma ever again. I still remember her from time to time.


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## xkm1948 (Feb 12, 2020)

A different angle:

Will you digitize your consciousness and materialize yourself (figuratively) in either VR or hologram or even a synesthetic host body (Wesworld style) after your biological body decayed beyond repair?

Love it or hate it. When the technology matured to the level of "possible" it WILL be done. Just like the CRISPR edited human embryo, It is only a matter of time.


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## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Funny cause i been more concerned about her mental health then others that are cheering VR tech. Every ones got different priorities.



I'll be concerned about it when there is an ounce of evidence saying it is concerning.



Xzibit said:


> You might not want to venture into the VR sites that posted a form of this story. They are far more brutal than this thread.



Trust me, I'm a big frog and don't need to be told where I can and can't go.


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I'll be concerned about it when there is an ounce of evidence saying it is concerning.


There are a lot of concerned people out there on the internet. It's like people read something, and they feel they must form some sort of judgement on it immediately. But that is really a whole nother can of worms.


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## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> There are a lot of concerned people out there on the internet. It's like people read something, and they feel they must form some sort of judgement on it immediately. But that is really a whole nother can of worms.



I know, believe me.  It's not really human nature to take an unbiased look at anything.  Kneejerk responses rule the day in general.  It obviously gets even worse in a low immediate-consequence  environment like the web.


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## Xzibit (Feb 12, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> There are a lot of concerned people out there on the internet. It's like people read something, and they feel they must form some sort of judgement on it immediately. But that is really a whole nother can of worms.



Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.  

Treating mental health like if its an on/off switch.


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.
> 
> Treating mental health like if its an on/off switch.


Does anybody actually believe that mental health works on an on/off switch?


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## Xzibit (Feb 12, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> Does anybody actually believe that mental health works on an on/off switch?



Apparently because people always wait for Neon signs and you always hear they never saw things coming or getting worse.


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## R0H1T (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.
> 
> Treating mental health like if its an on/off switch.


That thing called mind is a wonderful thing, isn't it? it tells you that the sugary waffle is delicious, even though it's bad for your health. You knowingly take that bite even when it'll likely cause you diabetes, among other things, at some point in your life. You drink that coffee knowing the caffeine may cause hypertension, yet for some it's the daily equivalent of water.

Have you seen the *Joker *recently? In more ways than one, it is your mind that tells you whether you're fine or not, meds don't even come close to the effect your own consciousness has over yourself. Clearly I'm no expert in medicine but I do know this for a fact that anything that stops or can stop you going over the edge is good in my books, especially if it doesn't involve* prescription drugs*.

As far as I'm concerned it's at least worth a try.* Your mileage will vary* though, as is always the case in life!


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## Xzibit (Feb 12, 2020)

R0H1T said:


> That thing called mind is a wonderful thing, isn't it? it tells you that the sugary waffle is delicious, even though it's bad for your health. You knowingly take that bite even when it'll likely cause you diabetes, among other things, at some point in your life. You drink that coffee knowing the caffeine may cause hypertension, yet for some it's the daily equivalent of water.
> 
> Have you seen the *Joker *recently? In more ways than one, it is your mind that tells you whether you're fine or not, meds don't even come close to the effect your own consciousness has over yourself. Clearly I'm no expert in medicine but I do know this for a fact that anything that stops or can stop you going over the edge is good in my books, especially if it doesn't involve* prescription drugs*.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned it's at least worth a try.* Your mileage will vary* though, as is always the case in life!



Let me be clear i'm not against this tech. Tech will always move forward in avenues we like or dislike. If it gets to trials and this eventually is beneficial good. Its the casualness that this one time session is a definitive solution. Speaking about PDs how much would a 8 month development of VR cost, what would be the co-pay or out of pocket expense.

To follow your analogy. A Diabetic indulges in sugar. Tomorrow he still wakes up with diabetes but as a story you focus on how happy the diabetic was during that sugar indulgent.


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## basco (Feb 12, 2020)

First world problems are funny and this will only make the process  of grief longer.

1 week before my father died the last words from me: you are an asshole i hate ya - i hate myself to this day for this since 30 years but i was young and dumb and now i only think of the good moments without VR or something creepy.

next is they implement ya a good memory in your brain.


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Apparently because people always wait for Neon signs and you always hear they never saw things coming or getting worse.


I'm going to go completely off tangent here, and a lot of what I'm about to say isn't directed at you, though you helped trigger the thoughts. I can see you're not just out to make sweeping generalizations. I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or necessarily trying to criticize your view in itself. I don't even ask that you read it! Though I'd be interested to hear what anybody who happens to thinks, with the original topic still fresh in everyone's heads. It's all related. Still gonna toss it in a spoiler. If I wasn't too sick to fall asleep, this post wouldn't exist to plug-up this thread   

Oh, and I think what you said about the causal one-time dealeo being definitive in any way was spot-on. It drives me crazy, how willing people are to do that with every new thing. And then 6 months later we wear it out, never knowing if it was worth it or not. I'd rather we didn't take this and run in either direction. We ruin everything we touch with that shit. If you take any of what I say, take that, please! I also suspect that the cost probably will, for a long time, prohibit something like this from being widespread, but who knows what tomorrow's tech will hold for us. 10 years from now that may no longer be so. Seems to be the progression of things. I don't really know. Annnnyway...


Spoiler



I doubt that people fully expect the signs to always be obvious and easy. Sometimes people do expect that, though..We've all seen the news stories where somebody snaps and does something crazy and everyone says they never knew, but as the evidence comes out you can't help but think it should've been picked up on, because the pattern looks clear when it's all laid out. There have been times when I saw just one or two things and thought "How could anybody not know?" and then there were 10 more things... that does happen. It seems like they waited to long. But sometimes I wonder if that's what we all just want to think, because if that's the case, it should be easy to solve.

But then, even in my own experience that's not always true. It's messier from the inside and things aren't spelled out linearly. Not all of the relevant info registers. When my friend took his own life, nobody saw it coming. He truly was the last person you would ever expect to do something like that. To this day, nobody has any idea why he did it. Not a single person near him had any inkling that he was suffering in such an overt way, let alone that he would do something that would rock our whole community and bring an end to all of the good he did. It was just so unlike the person any of us knew him as. If anything, it would be you who was down and out and it would be him who was guiding you through it!  If any of us had that first inkling and we REALLY looked, we might have seen a pattern, but even in hindsight nobody was able to unravel it. I really wish I knew. I'd rather know that it was something I could've stopped than not know at all. At least that's something I can take and use for the betterment of myself and others. Would've helped a lot with finding closure, too. Always wondering why sucks, and I probably always will on some level.

My best friend for most of my life also has many very deep issues, going back to his childhood. In spite of spending so much time with him and genuinely wanting to know him and be there for him, it wasn't until we got older that he started willingly showing cracks and opening up. With him, you kind of always knew, but the way that he masked it made trying to figure out what the problems even were or how to deal with them like pulling teeth. You could hope he would open up and give some sort of clue as to what could be done, but that generally went nowhere. Try to talk and he shuts down. And forget forcing him to do anything. You'd never get another chance. All I could really do was address whatever jumped out and maintain a demeanor of being open to things... just trying to keep that trust and hope that one day he sees the value of it. He finally has, but it took some life-changing events for him to be ready to trust anybody in that way. I now know things about him that nobody else does - vital things to know about him if you ever hope to help. But the only reason I do is because he decided he wanted me to. Otherwise I'd be as clueless as everyone else, with pretty much no way to find out. You may sense that something is wrong. Doesn't mean you can help... or would want to.

My own mother has always been a bit strange, but not overtly so. She went most of her life with nobody suspecting there was anything wrong with her. She had a different personality, but she never seemed at all unhappy and lead a successful life. I remember her being a good mother and wife, always working hard, never shirking from responsibility, always in-tune with things. Her, my father and I learned together what she was going through only a couple of years ago. In reality she is a full-blown manic-depressive and it was just a matter of things drawing the bad side of it out. Even she was not aware of issues that would lead to bad outcomes for her - until they did and it started to become a theme. Before then, nobody would've said any of her habits or attitudes were unhealthy, or even inconsistent. Looking back, it makes more sense. But back then, it really didn't. Even professionals failed to see it. It took seeing many to finally figure out what was going on and what worked. In the meantime, things sort of were what they were and it was one day at a time. Sometimes things happen and it can't be helped. Not something I'm happy admitting but that is the truth. Hindsight is always 20/20. Too bad that's often the best we have.

Point is, it's not always that black and white. Were there maybe things I could've done in these instances? Things I should've paid attention to? I do think about things like that. I register guilt over that and I'm definitely not above acknowledging my own flaws and responsibility for my role. But I think most people simply aren't up to holding people to everything... most people will fail to hold to themselves at some point. I don't think people in general are capable of being perceptive enough to always see the signs. Everybody has their own problems. And even if they are doing fine, what might be a problem for you might not be a problem for me. And there is only so much wherewithal a person can put to unraveling the psyches of people close to them. It's insurmountable. A little can go a long way. But on it's own that will never be enough. You're never going to know each and every weakness the people around you have, any more than they may know their own.

I agree that people should at least try to pay more attention and not shy away from the darker side of things. It's an important part of this whole deal that we're severely lacking in. We're whitewashing and it's a problem. But to me that's a smaller piece of it than it seems to be for others. I think it seems bigger because that's what literally everyone is focusing on right now. If they are aware of one societal issue regarding mental health, it's that. Unfortunately, that's where it stops for a lot of people. You have people who think we only need more positivity and acceptance. And then you have people who only think that people are too self-deluded to actually cope, without being aware of or caring for how many shades of gray there actually are. People just want it to be simpler than it is.

We also haven't been hip to the idea that mental health is important for very long. Right now we're on kind of this feel-good ride as people are becoming open to it for the first time and realizing that they don't have to suffer in the ways they have indefinitely... so they jump on from the quickest, easiest point. It's immediately appealing. Something people want to have very badly, and just as badly do not want to feel is being taken from them. I think for the time being, many people are only capable of engaging with it on a superficial level, but I don't get the impression that anybody is caught under the assumption that they are magically made better by things that simply feel good. A person may just not want to deal with it and rationalize putting it off for a long time, but you never truly forget what you're actually dealing with. You always know that's what you're doing. If you don't, you're about to be reminded. Try to avoid it and it bites back hard. Oftentimes people try to remind themselves and stay on a good path, but still falter. It's a constant up and down that I wonder if we'll ever succeed in truly separating ourselves from. Not saying people shouldn't try. You kind of have to try. But I think a component of deeper understanding is sorely needed, from both crowds. Some things a person just has to learn on their own. Deny them that opportunity at their peril. But you can't claim to be helping them knowing that's what you're doing. It just becomes a different kind of self-serving. The "I know you better than you know yourself because I do not have the same problems." kind of self-serving. It's no less ugly.

A lot of people, I think, still don't know how to talk about it or what to look for. And again what makes it all the more difficult is the fact that the signs can be very subtle, sometimes even not manifesting at all. Quite often, what would be normal behavior for one person may be the start of a bad progression for someone else. And what may be one person's poison is the only thing that can save another. Everything to do with the mind sits on a plethora of spectra and degrees.

People naturally seek things that make them feel better. And it does serve a utility. There is always going to be a need. It's not inherently bad. Depression and anxiety, for example are part of a cycle of gradually reinforcing negative thoughts and sensations. Every little thing is a brick in the wall. Over time, it even becomes physical and can sidestep mind-over-matter. Your body becomes physically predisposed to misfiring the mechanisms that cause a fear response. It becomes difficult, if not impossible to self-regulate simply by attacking the mental side. It is truly crippling.

But if you can do something to break one or two of those bricks along the way, the wall gets a little weaker. Even something superficial can occasionally serve this role, so long as the superficiality is acknowledged by the person utilizing it. Anything that can aid you in that process has the capability to be an asset to you, including the fluffy stuff. The same processes that break people down over time also play-out in reverse with people becoming more fulfilled. Individually those little positive experiences might be inconsequential and in fact are never going to be the one thing that 'fixes' you, but in the bigger picture, every little bit still helps. The mistake people on both sides make is making more out of the little bits than what they are. We either glorify it or completely dismiss it.


I think you highlighted something people also need to be aware of, though. A person needs to be able to temper those activities with reality and realize that although they may feel better in the moment, it can't be the be-all, end-all, lest you wind up back in the same place not expecting to be there. There's no shame, but also no glory in placating yourself for a while. It's not that people simply can't have things like this, or that we shouldn't encourage each other to do things that feel good when the walls are closing in. What we need to do away with is the idea of that being the singular means to an end, as well as the idea that because someone engages in a placating activity that THEY themselves must see it that way. Accountability is a problem, too. People should hold themselves accountable for their own choices regarding mental heath, but that doesn't mean it's on anybody else to decide what they should or shouldn't do, implicitly. 

You can question what people do and put out there and we should all honor that - its a dialogue I'd like to see taking place more than it does, but at the same time it seems as though people are quickly forgetting that the close-mindedness which has made it impossible to broach mental health with any real transparency isn't that far off from the questioning often done of the fluff movement now. People don't distinquish well between perfectly healthy coping and problem habits. They lump it together. Besides that, sometimes you may want to help someone and may indeed know a better way, but sometimes you simply cannot be the one. They may indeed be deluding themselves. But if that is the case, confronting the delusion head-on often leads to doubling-down. In trying to be the one to help fix someone who doesn't want it, you can wind-up hindering them, failing to see how things really are for them until it is too late - not seeing the forest for the trees. There are just too many exceptions when it comes to mental health for your average person to always be stepping in. People want to understand it and be on top of it, but both camps take it too far. Responses are HUGELY exaggerated these days, but to me that largely masks the fact that sometimes it truly is not appropriate to interfere and only serves to muddle the water. Eventually it winds up devolving into these really ugly, self-important talks, with one group putting itself above the other, just like we always have. 

People get ahead of themselves in their (I think, largely well-intended) opposition of this (also well-intended) positivity deal just as often as people rush to the positivity in the first place. It is getting worse, as both sides ramp-up in response to one another. I can't help but think we're leaving each other out and forgetting what mental health awareness is supposed to be about. It's become another one of those debates that people have just to have.


To me, positive coping is all about context. In the context of a wider approach to dealing with the grief... other methods used in tandem, something like this is probably fine. Human beings have trouble existing only as long-term creatures. Sometimes we need little breaks and escapes just to keep focus. The best attitude towards and plans for the future cannot guarantee successful relinquishment from things breaking someone down in the present. Sometimes you have to let it go for the day, allow yourself to feel better for a while, and pick it up again tomorrow. That's part of it, too. It doesn't matter what's at the end of the road if along the way you become too weak to continue. It takes both modes of operating to really make it. I think sometimes people forget all of the things they did to placate when they make it to the other side. But we all do it. And there are reasons for why we distract ourselves in those ways. Nobody is a fortress. Sometimes people even realize they are not as far along as they could or should be, and feeling the guilt, knowing people will hold them responsible, hide away. They're as scared as ever of being singled out as weak and met with criticism they can't process from the point they're at. And then you wind up with someone who's been struggling for years and what do people say to that when it starts to show? "You shouldn't have done that. You should have done this. Stop doing that. I did this and I am fine. That guy did that and look at him. This is all on you." True or not doesn't matter at that point because you are hitting them where it hurts and then wondering why they get defensive. It's not an honest conversation anymore. Hell, I see more people taking satisfaction in prodding it than actually doing anything productive about it.

And yet people wonder why so many others cling to this delusional positivity and try to mask the fact they are not actually coping and may not even know how or believe that they can do it. Because they are afraid that someone will look at them and say "This is what is wrong with the world."


There's just no insight to it. No meaningful perspective. Again it isn't always about determinably wrong or right matters. It is about the outcome. The outcome of trying to be right about the issues hasn't done any good. It hasn't changed what most people would agree is wrong at all. There is no setting a person straight on caring for their own mind. Consider this VR thing (and many other things people do to placate) as a crutch. If you rely on a crutch continuously, you will atrophy and be unable to walk without it. But at the same time, if your legs are really that damaged and you refuse to use the crutch, simply because other people didn't need it, or people typically don't use one, you may never walk properly again. Years later, you will still have to live with that. Sometimes to heal, you have to spend some time off of it. So long as that isn't all you do, it's beneficial. There are no hard rules to this process, no givens as far as time goes. Some people heal very quickly. Others never seem to fully heal. Even doing the same things. Just because one person has a strong need to placate at times and one doesn't, doesn't make either one more right. 

One person may be into the later stages of grief in just a month. Another may still be stuck in an early phase years later. The natural thing to wonder is, "what was it about either of them that made it that way?" But that is tricky business. If anybody actually knew, there would be no debate. The sad reality is that you can wind up alienating the latter person and blaming them for things that may not entirely be their fault. Historically, this has been a plague to mental health since we first started looking into it. It's what led people to become outcasts and be denied of any means to contribute and subjugated to a life of subjugated, simply for having different needs. There is much about the human experience that is still not well understood. It's daunting to draw a line between what is and isn't a meaningful comparison. It doesn't mean you have to encourage behaviors you deem unhealthy. It just means you have to know when to step outside of yourself and realize that it may not be about what you think is right for other people.

Now, we have the opposite of how that's supposed to work, where everything is immediately legitimized. But the answer to that isn't total opposition. That would just be going back to the old status quo. As with many issues of the times, I feel we are having the wrong conversations. We are in too much of a hurry for the answers. Everyone thinks they know, so nobody can agree and nothing worthwhile gets done. Nobody really learns anything. The research continues, but on average everyone else remains in the dark.

The biggest problem I see in mental health discussions happening these days are all of these quick-incision, absolute declarations of 'this is always bad' or 'this is always good.' I think people should try to weather everything they can without help, when they are able to. Our ability to withstand bad experiences is similar to physical strength in how it needs to be kept up. But sometimes it pays to admit to yourself that you're not as strong as you wish you were and allow yourself some temporary relief. Forgive yourself for not being strong enough and make a promise to try again. I wanna put a big emphasis on the temporary part. If you tear a muscle, you need to rest. But at some point not much later you will need to start working to get the strength back and do some painful things to encourage it to finish healing. That, however, doesn't make the rest periods any less necessary. What's the saying? "In all things, moderation."

We are definitely lacking that, but the common opposition I see to people's notions of positivity are equally off-base, in my estimation. Neither approach has ever worked how it was said it would or should. Which to me only goes to show that none of us know as much as we might like to think we do about what it means to be a person. We know much of our own experience going through changes, but it always falls apart whenever someone tries to take that and apply it outside of themselves. Doesn't stop people from continually trying down that path, though.

Another analogy. Band-aids can be helpful in warding off infection and protecting wounds... often they also provide a little relief from the pain of a cut. They don't on their own make the wound go away. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't ever be used... just that there needs to be an understanding of what they can and can't do before using them. 

FWIW I think we do put too much emphasis on these feel good things. Many times people seem more concerned with being made to feel that they are better in the moment than actually being better. I just don't think that's necessarily a problem with the means, but rather how they are used. But as a general rule I think we still have to be able to believe that we will make the right calls for each other and for ourselves. If we can't even have that baseline level of faith in people, we're all screwed. A big part of dealing with it is accepting that we are all human and these sorts of things are just an unavoidable part of our existence. Our methods are never going to be perfect and all we can really do is just the best we can with whatever we have. Try to asses the risks and choose as carefully as possible, knowing it may not work out how we hope or expect. Or maybe always expect consequences. Never go into pursuing better mental health thinking there won't be consequences one way or the other. On the whole, there still seems to be a lack of understanding when it comes to how individuals deal with things. Even as we push towards openness with these matters, there is still this prevailing attitude that there should be a one-size-fits-all answer.

I think it's important to have an open mind and be able to take the bad with the good. That's where I stand on things like this. But that is to say it's never all good, either. We all want to get to a point where everybody is able to be on an even footing with this stuff and we have solid, effective ways for approaching mental health, but realistically I don't see us ever getting to that point. It's always gonna be kind of touch and go. And then there will be consequences that will also have to be dealt with by society as a whole. In absence of real answers all we can do is follow the leads we have, see what works, and what doesn't. Preemptively ruling things out, or thinking we knew what was going on is what set us back to where we're now at in the first place. If it seems like something can help, we have to try. And then we watch carefully. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. In order to really learn from that we all have to be able to take a step back... be patient and honest with ourselves, and each other. Or we can go back and forth till the end of time, with nobody ever agreeing, and there always being those people being left out in the cold because of it.


I'm sorry, this became a total ramble, but it is something I've put a lot of thought into and something very personally near and dear to me. Now, more than in the past, I feel it's important to try and get a grip on. And I'm trying. I think most people legitimately are, too. I think we can reach a point where we all understand things better, but before that our approaches will change in ways that presently can't be foreseen by anyone, least of all myself. We all do want for there to be an answer that is clear and digestible from our respective reference points - we all see and personally know the suffering and damage that mental issues bring, but it is never going to be able to be boiled down in the way people seem to want it to be, no matter what side of the fence you're on. We all have to be able to see different sides to all of it and try to recognize when things need to be left be, as part of a process that only the person going through it can direct appropriately. There will always be those dark times and regrettable choices. You shouldn't seek to avoid those, or ever believe that you're ever succeeding in doing that - at best you are simply between missteps. Even in these positivity movements that seem to cause so much harm, there are aspects that are important to bring forward. It could be the right choice, or it could be a misstep. Either way, it has to happen for people to get to the next step. We will move on from that when society is ready. Right now we aren't, but fortunately it isn't static and doesn't ever move in one direction.





basco said:


> First world problems are funny and this will only make the process  of grief longer.
> 
> 1 week before my father died the last words from me: you are an asshole i hate ya - i hate myself to this day for this since 30 years but i was young and dumb and now i only think of the good moments without VR or something creepy.
> 
> next is they implement ya a good memory in your brain.


Don't take this the wrong way. I don't truly know the meaning behind them, but the words you say contradict each other. I legitimately do not know how to parse what you said. It reads as "I hate myself for something decades in the past, but I'm fine. I don't know what those people's problems are." At least one of those things doesn't jive. To say you still hate yourself and have that be the first thing you think to say implies that you haven't moved on yourself. No shade. No judgement. Just how it comes off, without reading into it.


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## basco (Feb 12, 2020)

life goes on and i will never forgive me for saying such words to my family but i will not go into VR and excuse what i did because my father is dead.


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## robot zombie (Feb 12, 2020)

basco said:


> life goes on and i will never forgive me for saying such words to my family but i will not go into VR and excuse what i did because my father is dead.


Thank you for clarifying. That I can understand perfectly well.


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## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Yup people are willing to form that it helped her while asking others to prove it didn't.



I never said it helped her.  I said before you condemn it, have some fricking substantiating evidence.


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## trickson (Feb 12, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I never said it helped her.  I said before you condemn it, have some fricking substantiating evidence.


How many times can you go back?
How many more sessions will it take?
Can this become a weekly event, where it's just easier to keep the vision alive and not deal with the loss? 
Will this make it easier to get over the death of a loved one or just easier for you to make a new fake reality rather than deal with the reality it's self? 
Lot's of questions None answerable at this time.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 12, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Apparently because people always wait for Neon signs and you always hear they never saw things coming or getting worse.



That is called denial.


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## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2020)

trickson said:


> Lot's of questions None answerable at this time.



All good reasons to withhold judgement.


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## trickson (Feb 12, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> All good reasons to withhold judgement.


Okay I'll give this to you. 
But I'm still leaning on the fence on this.


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## R-T-B (Feb 12, 2020)

trickson said:


> Okay I'll give this to you.
> But I'm still leaning on the fence on this.



Oh I totally get that.

I'm preaching caution for sure, not enthusiasm.


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## Xzibit (Feb 12, 2020)

trickson said:


> How many times can you go back?
> How many more sessions will it take?
> Can this become a weekly event, where it's just easier to keep the vision alive and not deal with the loss?
> Will this make it easier to get over the death of a loved one or just easier for you to make a new fake reality rather than deal with the reality it's self?
> Lot's of questions None answerable at this time.



Things that a clinical study would look into. Not some production done for views. The VR studio isn't going to follow up on her nor is the Documentary production.


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## trickson (Feb 13, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Things that a clinical study would look into. Not some production done for views. The VR studio isn't going to follow up on her nor is the Documentary production.


Exactly. 
Probably the reason for all the negative comments really.
This is on it's face at the very least creepy and that would be due to it's new nature and the new way it's being used, claiming (or on it's face claiming) this is a great way to say good bye or whatever to bring back the dead.


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## Xzibit (Feb 13, 2020)

trickson said:


> Exactly.
> Probably the reason for all the negative comments really.
> This is on it's face at the very least creepy and that would be due to it's new nature and the new way it's being used, claiming (or on it's face claiming) this is a great way to say good bye or whatever to bring back the dead.



To me its interesting because it the seems in here some are all about VR/tech centric. The well being of her and her family is like secondary almost dismissive like Metal Health is in society. She still has a husband and kids which are also effected. People don't even bring up, like they don't exist in this equation.

Being a tech forum i can see its leaning more tech but there is a huge leap from a one off production to clinical studies/trials.

On a lighter note:
One step closer to putting the afterlife out of business. Did you see a ghost? Nah, I went down to the VR Studio and saw great grandpa. He asked if Half-Life 3 was out yet.


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## trickson (Feb 13, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> To me its interesting because its all about VR/tech centric. The well being of her and her family is like secondary almost dismissive like Metal Health is in society. She still has a husband and kids which are also effected.
> 
> Being a tech forum i can see its leaning more tech but there is a huge leap from a one off production to clinical studies/trials.


I really think this should have been done under some kind of mental health professional not some VR tech. 
See things like this are ban from being tested like this in America (THANK GOD) Because this could be unhealthy dangerous and misused.


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## R-T-B (Feb 13, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> Things that a clinical study would look into. Not some production done for views. The VR studio isn't going to follow up on her nor is the Documentary production.



No, but it got the right questions asked.  You can't exactly outlaw things that haven't been tried yet...  you wouldn't even know where to start.  That's why we don't even try, nor should we.  We wait for the abuse rather than trying to preempt it, unless you have science proving something that is.

A side example would be drones.  There is no way anyone could've thought we'd need the drone regulations we need today when they started making model aircraft toys and such.  And if they had applied those regulations immediately, it probably would've scared an entire industry into death.

The system works somewhat clunkily, but it does work and it's best to not pretend we all know what's best for everyone.  Leave the judgements to the real professionals.


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## trickson (Feb 13, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> No, but it got the right questions asked.  You can't exactly outlaw things that haven't been tried yet...  you wouldn't even know where to start.  That's why we don't even try, nor should we.  We wait for the abuse rather than trying to preempt it, unless you have science proving something that is.
> 
> A side example would be drones.  There is no way anyone could've thought we'd need the drone regulations we need today when they started making model aircraft toys and such.  And if they had applied those regulations immediately, it probably would've scared an entire industry into death.
> 
> The system works somewhat clunkily, but it does work and it's best to not pretend we all know what's best for everyone.  Leave the judgements to the real professionals.


Yeah that's I think why also so much negativiaty is given.
See with this kind of a trial I think they should have had a clinical doctor at the least present and caring for the women before and after. 
But maybe soon things like this will get the trials needed? Here in America it would need to be done fore sure, This kind of questonable tech is moreregulated since it would be leaning more twards the mental health community ths then would fall under lots of clinical and medical guidelines.


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## phanbuey (Feb 13, 2020)

It's true - VR tech, especially stuff like this where it can render people you know and recognize, I feel like is getting to the point where it can start giving you actual PTSD and we are nowhere near ready for it.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 13, 2020)

phanbuey said:


> I feel like is getting to the point where it can start giving you actual PTSD and we are nowhere near ready for it.


That's an opinion not supported by merit or evidence.


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## Xzibit (Feb 13, 2020)

phanbuey said:


> It's true - VR tech, especially stuff like this where it can render people you know and recognize, I feel like is getting to the point where it can start giving you actual PTSD and we are nowhere near ready for it.



Not VR but there was a study published last year



> *Abstract*
> Threatening cues and surrounding contexts trigger specific defensive response patterns. Posturography, a technique for measuring postural strategies, has been used to evaluate motor defensive reactions in humans. When exposed to gun pointed pictures, humans were shown to exhibit an immobility reaction. Short and long-term exposure to violent video games was shown to be a causal risk factor for increased violent and aggressive behavior. Assaultive violence with a gun is a major trigger for motor defensive reactions, and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is the most characteristic psychiatric sequelae. Recent studies point to links between PTSD symptoms and emotional shortfalls in non-clinical trauma-exposed samples. The present study investigated defensive reactions to gun threat and PTSD symptoms in heavy players of violent video games compared to non-players. Male university students were screened according to use of violent video games and divided in three groups: non-players, moderate players, and heavy players. Stimuli were pictures depicting a man pointing a gun directed at the participant. In matched control pictures, non-lethal objects replaced the gun. Posturography was recorded and PTSD symptoms were assessed. When exposed to the threat pictures, non-players exhibited the expected reduction in amplitude of body sway (immobility), heavy players presented atypical augmented amplitude of body sway, and moderate players showed intermediate reactivity. Heavy players presented a significant distinct reaction compared to non-players. They also scored significantly higher in PTSD symptoms than non-players. Disadvantageous defensive reactions and higher vulnerability to PTSD symptoms, revealed in the present study, add to other shortcomings for heavy players.
> 
> *PTSD Symptoms*
> ...


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## robot zombie (Feb 13, 2020)

That's a pretty small sample. I'd also be curious what exactly qualifies as "high-frequency of exposure"

I dunno, it's interesting but not much to go by.


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## phanbuey (Feb 13, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's an opinion not supported by merit or evidence.



Right, because VRET is currently used to treat PTSD; therefore it's completely meritless to assume that certain experiences in VR can impact the condition negatively.  Even though it's widely known that exposure to digital content can absolutely cause mental trauma.

Youtube moderators have to sign a waiver acknowledging that their jobs can cause PTSD and mental trauma, and Microsoft got sued for the same thing by its own mods...

When you strap on a ultra-realistic digital media device to your face and have an incredibly disturbing experience; it's completely meritless to think that this could cause issues.


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## Xzibit (Feb 13, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> That's a pretty small sample. I'd also be curious what exactly qualifies as *"high-frequency of exposure"*
> 
> I dunno, it's interesting but not much to go by.



88 participants in total. 48 Male / 40 Female.  Not small sample when you compare it to some of the studies that include treating Vets with PTSD those samples don't get into the double digits. 

The 17 Participants that fit


> “Heavy players” were those that reported using violent video games “often” or “almost always”.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 13, 2020)

phanbuey said:


> Right, because VRET is currently used to treat PTSD; therefore it's completely meritless to assume that certain experiences in VR can impact the condition negatively.  Even though it's widely known that exposure to digital content can absolutely cause mental trauma.
> 
> Youtube moderators have to sign a waiver acknowledging that their jobs can cause PTSD and mental trauma, and Microsoft got sued for the same thing by its own mods...
> 
> When you strap on a ultra-realistic digital media device to your face and have an incredibly disturbing experience; it's completely meritless to think that this could cause issues.


You're blowing things out of proportion, like many in this thread.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Feb 14, 2020)

basco said:


> next is they implement ya a good memory in your brain.



Total Recall.

Someone get Douglas Quaid on the phone and find out if he's living the real thing or just stuck in a memory.


----------



## phanbuey (Feb 14, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're blowing things out of proportion, like many in this thread.



I mean it's a thread about a mother's reaction to her actually dead VR daughter.  It's a pretty dramatic thread to begin with.

Just imagine people's online reaction if you put a clip of a dog/other animal reacting to a video of its deceased pup in VR like that...


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## Xzibit (Feb 14, 2020)

neatfeatguy said:


> Total Recall.
> 
> Someone get Douglas Quaid on the phone and find out if he's living the real thing or just stuck in a memory.



You know how hes going to react like *Ryan Gosling "K" from Bladerunner 2049. *When he visits the memory maker.


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## robot zombie (Feb 14, 2020)

All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations. It's one of those things that you would think was always going to be creepy and traumatic, but many people do them and willingly go up to see their loved one one last time, even though you don't have to. And none of them seem to find THAT traumatic. It brings them peace to see them more as they always remembered (as opposed to the months to years before, in pain and not the same person anymore.) It also gives people who weren't there when they passed and perhaps hadn't seen them in some time that much needed chance to see them again. How many times have you heard "I never got to see him before he went." You know? That stuff, can really stick with a person and eat away. They may long for that, for a very long time, which isn't always good. You see people break down and just lose it in desperation when they have nothing to reach out to or hold onto. Go down a road they never fully come back from and become a husk themselves.

It gives them that chance to face the reality that they are never going to see that person again in this life, and say goodbye _on their terms._ It helps them gather the will to let go.

I mean, for all of this talk of trauma... I don't doubt that it could be traumatic to see your loved one re-animated in VR-world for a little while... to see them and have it *almost* seem like they're right there again, only be left to deal with the reality of losing them all over again. I get that. But what if you never actually were able to let go? It's like, you lost them, but they never left you. You wish you could see them again and say goodbye for real. Just one more time. That's all it is. It's not about staying in the past and never moving on. It's a way to get _out_ of the past. A little something to shake you fully back into the present.

I think we all want that sometimes, and people all have their little reminders they reach to in order to placate that feeling. We reminisce amongst one another, sharing in our most cherished memories. We view objects with strong memories tied to them (and store them with reverence - some even referring to it as though the person's soul is bound to it, a piece of jewelry, an urn, their favorite chair.) We go to visit their graves, or to other places that remind us of peak times when they were in our lives. It's a way of attaining and then keeping closure. There is some pain involved every single time... it's unavoidable. It lives with you forever, whether or not you choose to live with it... but sometimes those sorts of things help keep a person grounded. You never forget the pain, but you also make sure that you never forget who that person was, or what they meant to you in your life. You do whatever works to keep the happy reminders. There's no set time when anyone is expected to stop doing these things, and many times it's considered a mark of maturity and well-being to be able to look back and glean something positive from it. It's a way of respecting the dead and honoring their memory within you. You carry them along, when they no longer can. I don't know that there's any way to put rules on how a person goes about doing that.

In one sentence, we are _reliving those memories._ It makes me wonder, is this really all that different? Or is this perhaps just another way to do something that actually is pretty natural for humans to do?

The violent video game/PTSD study made me realize something. Those people playing those games are being affected negatively because they are seeing and hearing things that mimic the trauma. The actual traumatic events. For it to be the same in this case, the VR would be simulating the long drawn out battle with the illness that took her, ending with her dying in pain. But that isn't what happened. There was a brief conversation, I assume words of love/reassurance, the goodbye, and then her daughter drifts peacefully off to sleep, looking happy, well, and content.

Not unlike the presentations in an open casket. That's pretty much what they go for by having them look as close to their best as they ever did while alive. People will often remark on how peaceful they looked or that they looked like they were having a good sleep. This is all no more 'real' than the VR experience, and yet in some ways more visceral. But it's not even something people think about most of the time. Many will always find it strange and creepy and refuse to do it, but it's still generally an accepted practice. It's a way of adding one last memory at the end, in order to keep your heart tethered to parts worth remembering, instead of the parts you'd rather forget. In a person's mind, it makes it about the parts that mattered, instead of the loss. That can be a very powerful thing. The loss can literally kill you if you are not able to take your focus off of it.


It was certainly and unusual and emotionally moving display. You can see the pain and sadness all around. But isn't that how it always is when you lose someone? Should we stop having funerals because people are prone to outbursts of overwhelming sadness at them? To me, that's kinda part of the process. And if this is the reaction now, it may just be needed. It's not necessarily a bad thing that this stuff came out. For all any of us know, it needed to... and now has had its chance.

I have my own questions and doubts about the ethics and the efficacy of something like that - don't get me wrong, I am not totally sold. I just can't help but draw these parallels. It truly doesn't strike me as being that far off from things we already do. It's just another means to do the same things people always do when someone close dies, and often continue to do from time to time, without it being looked at as being unhealthy or unnatural. So I don't see it as good or bad. Nobody really knows what goes through someone else's mind as they make their way through these things.

Maybe this is just me, having been to a few open caskets and gone up for visitation, observing the things happening within myself and people around me. There is sadness, tears, every emotion imaginable, but for most people there is peace after that. For me there has been a lasting peace, that I honestly don't know how I would've gotten otherwise. You can even feel it in the room, emanating off of people as they return to their seats. Most are quite calm the entire time, even when tears are shed. They have thier moment, and when they are finished, they let out that long sigh of relief as if to say "it's really over." It does something to you, to be able to have a real tangible chance to say goodbye, even knowing they are already gone and that what you are looking at is no longer them, but a husk. Some can't bear it all, while others really need to have that. People are strange *shrugs*

Nobody actually believes that's the real person, you know? That's not what it's for. Again, I can't pretend to know the implications for this practice, and as a one-off it doesn't really mean much. But it does set off some interesting thoughts. It's a challenging subject. And just like with open-casket visitations, nobody will ever agree.  f you're going in for these things regularly, I might worry. But if it's a one time deal done to help get a person over the hurdle... well, it's not that strange to me. Not any stranger than any of the other things people do to cope... like keep the person's ashes up on their mantle, watch old home movies, or whatever.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 14, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations. It's one of those things that you would think was always going to be creepy and traumatic, but many people do them and willingly go up to see their loved one one last time, even though you don't have to.



Except no one is animating the corpse and make it speak all kinds of things that are entirely made up (potentially by people who have NO idea about the life and times of said corpse.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 14, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations.


Yeah, I refuse to do that. My personal belief is that the body is a left-over shell, to be treated with respect for certain, but not to be given more consideration than it deserves, to be disposed of in a graceful, dignified manner. Only once did I ever view the body of a loved one in the casket because she wished it for a family reason. Otherwise I would not have been there. To me, viewing the body is creepy as hell because that's all it is, a body, empty and lifeless. This VR thing by comparison is harmless.


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## robot zombie (Feb 14, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Except no one is animating the corpse and make it speak all kinds of things that are entirely made up (potentially by people who have NO idea about the life and times of said corpse.


True, but the end goal is the same. They're going for the same impact. The body is typically dressed in clothing that suited the person in life, and they are told things about the person that might help them make it more convincing. They do everything they can to make it appear as close to how the person looked when alive as possible, so that when the family sees them, they are reminded of more positive things about the person. But otherwise, those are people who never knew the person and are just going by whatever they're told about the person... referencing stories and photographs.

And hey, at least with the VR, they don't actually have to manipulate the actual corpse. They leave the real body to rest. It's just a likeness. I agree, it would be very disturbing to have my loved one's actual dead body animated and talking to me. That's actually kind of horrifying to think about.

I can totally get why open casket is off-putting. A lot of people feel that a body should be left to rest. Others just truly cannot bear to see without it salting the wound. But then some people request it before they go, and that is in fact their idea of a dignified passing. They want people to see them dressed up nice, looking how they've always looked. I've considered it, for those who might want that chance. Once I'm dead, I'm dead. Honestly, for a while I wanted to be shot into space, but there are too many legal complications  

Of course, none of this makes it any less strange or upsetting. Just no more than anything was before we had VR.


----------



## Xzibit (Feb 14, 2020)

1 real funeral then 1 VR funeral 4 yrs later. 

What would be the acceptable time line for that.

Lets not forget



> *Nayeon’s little sister, a spitting image of her older sibling, was used as the basis of the character model.*



Make sure you have someone that looks like you before you go.


----------



## robot zombie (Feb 14, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> 1 real funeral then 1 VR funeral 4 yrs later.
> 
> What would be the acceptable time line for that.


Honestly, I don't know.

It's not exactly a full ceremony. Just a goodbye, which... can you really put a timeline on that aspect? Not everyone is able to at the time of the funeral, for some that is never enough for them to move on, and everyone does it in their own way.

I will say this... to not be able to do it for all of that time suggests some serious issues. That's not normal in itself. Someone who has internalized the loss in a more normal healthy way would not need or even consider something like this. But it also isn't unheard of for people to really struggle for a long time, to the point where it severely undermines them. And in those cases, there are no easy answers. I don't know if this is one answer. But I am open to the idea that those answers may be outside the realm of what would usually be considered normal or acceptable. I can neither encourage, nor dismiss the possibilities. There just isn't enough to go by.

I'm just trying to understand with what I have available to me, rather than just assuming it's only this loopy sci-fi thing and leaving it at that. I feel like that's the easy way to look at it, when this is a completely novel thing, that like or not, is probably gonna happen again, anyway. So I figure it's worth sort of reading into and taking the opportunity to learn something new about people, since none of us here have a say anyway.

I'm not set on my conclusions. For all I know, there is something seriously wrong with the woman. People have made claims to that effect that have merit. But the other side is worth exploring, too. At least try to figure out why people do it and what they might get out of it, you know?


----------



## phanbuey (Feb 14, 2020)

What about virtual assistants/ AI in the voice and appearance of your loved ones?

Some people commemorate their loved ones with portraits, artworks, photos... Why not an interactive replica?

I know people that have statues/busts of their loved ones, others that get tattoos i don't think any of those things are weird so maybe the reaction is just normal tech shock.


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## Xzibit (Feb 14, 2020)

phanbuey said:


> I know people that have statues/busts of their loved ones, others that get tattoos i don't think any of those things are weird so maybe the reaction is just normal tech shock.



Might be Eastern thing. They have VR funeral homes and phone apps for deceased loved one. Less restrictions and oversight.

One of The 3D phone apps you have to be alive for tho.


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## phanbuey (Feb 14, 2020)

now that you mention it....  that's true; eastern cultures have a pretty different relationship with death and loss.









						National Geographic
					

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.




					video.nationalgeographic.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 14, 2020)

phanbuey said:


> now that you mention it....  that's true; eastern cultures have a pretty different relationship with death and loss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow.. Couldn't do that, just couldn't.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 14, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wow. Folks, the OP shared something very touching and heart felt, a way for technology to help a grieving mother close a painful chapter in life, and you're mocking that? Seriously?
> 
> Have some self-respect and dignity... Not cool peeps, not cool at all.



Yeah, sure, this is psychologically and emotionally a very good thing to have.

'Make mourning easier' through technology. Surely you can see the problems here... Self respect and dignity? This is marketing, dude. Wake up.

Its fine to explore possibilities, but what always seems strangely absent is real research on long term effects on our psyche. Look at social media, another such technological experiment, and how people cope with that. The amount of mental issues is going up, not down, as are suicide rates, (online) bullying etc. Narcissism is bigger and more visible than it ever was - making it also more normal.

The gist of it: Lower a barrier and make it easier, and you will create more misery and dependancy. There are good reasons some things take effort. Mourning is one of them. This VR solution is the same shit as some weirdo telling us we can speak with our deceased relatives. It sells, fantastically, just like all the other miracle cures we know of. Do they really help? Studies show.... oh wait those studies aren't being done.



phanbuey said:


> now that you mention it....  that's true; eastern cultures have a pretty different relationship with death and loss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



None involve technology, but rather contemplation and experience, pure and real, with a clear beginning and end. A writing on the wall. The contrast couldn't be greater here: waiting for some occurrence that is irreversible, versus having a gadget to replay infinitely and at any given moment with zero effort.



robot zombie said:


> All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations. It's one of those things that you would think was always going to be creepy and traumatic, but many people do them and willingly go up to see their loved one one last time, even though you don't have to. And none of them seem to find THAT traumatic. It brings them peace to see them more as they always remembered (as opposed to the months to years before, in pain and not the same person anymore.) It also gives people who weren't there when they passed and perhaps hadn't seen them in some time that much needed chance to see them again. How many times have you heard "I never got to see him before he went." You know? That stuff, can really stick with a person and eat away. They may long for that, for a very long time, which isn't always good. You see people break down and just lose it in desperation when they have nothing to reach out to or hold onto. Go down a road they never fully come back from and become a husk themselves.
> 
> It gives them that chance to face the reality that they are never going to see that person again in this life, and say goodbye _on their terms._ It helps them gather the will to let go.
> 
> ...



Great points, I think the main differentiator here is the fact that this is a digital experience. Repeatable, recordable, but _fake_.

This is different than watching an old home video. The fact that new interaction comes out of the VR solution is a problem. It brings a false reality into the mind of someone who is already in a weakened state. How many can really separate that from reality, and is it really a good thing to satisfy the need for that interaction when it is in fact not truly possible? Is this really productive for the mourning process? I strongly doubt that.

Mourning is about closure, this VR experience opens up ways to do the polar opposite.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 14, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Mourning is about closure, this VR experience opens up ways to do the polar opposite.


So do old pictures and video. Your point?


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## Xzibit (Feb 14, 2020)

Old photos and video don't go through the ageing process. Then question where you been and if your thinking of them.



> "Where have you been, Mom? Did you think about me?"



Oh, great now this VR thing is try'n to guilt trip me.


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## hat (Feb 15, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> So do old pictures and video. Your point?


As I'm sure you can guess... pictures, or even video, are a far cry from an interactive computer simulated representation of a person.

FWIW, I've lost plenty of people in my lifetime. People who I would love to see again... but, not like this.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 15, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> So do old pictures and video. Your point?



Does your home video or photo book interact with you? Or does it leave you to ponder and remember, and just that. In a way, it further cements the rationale that somebody is gone and these are memories of the past. The VR experience does the exact opposite, it creates the illusion new experiences are possible. Especially if you _want_ to believe that.



Xzibit said:


> Old photos and video don't go through the ageing process. Then question where you been and if your thinking of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, great now this VR thing is try'n to guilt trip me.



Yup many bizarre movie scenes do pass by now. This is 90's Sci-Fi all over again. And note: there are a bunch of people applauding this tech, today. Back then every half wit realized this was a problem... Scary shit. It shows how we lose touch with reality and why it matters. People run away from it into technology.


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## robot zombie (Feb 15, 2020)

I can see it too, I'm a bit conflicted on the ultimate meaning of it, because we're kind of caught in the middle. The only thing I'm fairly certain of right now is that our values no longer match the reality we're facing. What used to work for society, doesn't anymore, because we are now surrounded by all of this new shit that has effects on us we don't always see. No doubt it is changing us. That is going to happen. And it's going to keep happening. What used to sort of shield us and allow us to better integrate with reality is no longer effective. A new reality is forming., I mean, really, that is not something we can avoid at this point. If anything, it has already happened. All of these new things are hitting our perception all of the time and molding it in different ways.

I think the only reason it's bad right now... the only reason there are things to fear in it, is the simple fact that there is no precedent for how we should deal with it. And I think the truth is that nobody knows. Nobody has that picture of the full reality, yet. It's easy to look around and see it as people losing touch with reality, and with their humanity, but those really are such nebulous things. So much of how we perceive things actually seem to be there to keep us from being directly exposed to reality. We make a lot of assumptions about what is real and what is not. It comes down to how we define ourselves. People generally believe whatever they need to believe in order to feel a connection with things entering their perception and be able to somewhat navigate them in a way that they can find meaning in.

The best example I can think of is religion. I'm not religious myself, but I'm not out to take that away from anyone. Some people think it is harmful - that it takes people out of touch with reality. But is has served a purpose for us... which is consolidating the bare reality with the impact things existing within it have on us in a more productive and meaningful way. People who practice a religion believe deeply in many things that may or may not be true... things not immediately observable. It defines much of who they are and what life actually is for them. And it's not little things, either. There are big things, such as an afterlife and an all-encompassing spiritual force that comprises of everything we see, a set of morals and consequences far removed from the immediacy of what is around us. There's no absolute, observable, transferable reason to believe this. It's based on faith. And in fact, many people who don't share in that reality with you will say that you are crazy.

The important thing here is that both people are usually equally functional and adaptable. It's not always about who's closer to the truth when it comes to things we can't know or comprehend.

And the funny thing is, even if you don't participate in it, you can't ever fully get away from that tendency... humans always have this need to make sense of things, even when we can't. If you think that you are beyond certain beliefs and practices... well, that's just part of the reality you have cooked up for yourself. Sometimes I think the only difference between this part of us that we all share and psychosis is that you can't control psychosis.

But that's an important distinction to make. People often talk about these things like everyone is just at the whims of it... sort of in the grips, but people ARE choosing this. We have always chosen how we see these things. What's the Rush song say? Bit of a bastardization here, but "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." As in, you can't avoid choosing a reality for yourself. We are not unwitting victims of this stuff. We're still just hashing it out. Just because our shared reality is changing doesn't necessarily make it any more wrong or right. That's never really been the point of it.

So to me, people finding their meaning in different things is just kind of people being people. We just have different tools... tools we haven't fully learned how to use. We aren't like other living creatures. We 'assign' our realities to ourselves and each other. We don't just live-out an inborn purpose. If we don't like something, there are two options. Change the world, or change ourselves and how we see things. We choose them and change them as we see fit.  Which makes me wonder... are we any more or less 'in touch' with reality than we've ever been? Or have we just been inventing all of these tools to build our own from the very beginning? One that maybe suits us better than the one we were all born into? Whether we succeed is another question, but that's one we won't be able to answer until we actually try and see the outcomes for what they are. Are people happier? Do we hurt each other less?

But I guess that all boils it back down to the same point I've made several times before. It comes down to what you value and personally want to see in life. People only see what they want to see. And that is EVERYONE in this conversation. Everyone in the whole damned world.

If you want to see it as harmful, you will see the harm. If you want to see it as helpful, you will see the benefits. This idea that technology is causing people to lose touch with reality is tough to argue for or against. Who's reality are we talking? Yours? Mine? Or everyone's? Those all change all of the time.

And of course, you can always say that other people are choosing wrong. But if everyone makes that choice but you, it just means you're going to be left behind, in a bubble of your own.


Narcissism is a funny thing. A lot of people look at it like a disease you can catch, but in observing it, that doesn't actually seem to be the case. The prevailing pattern is that your overall levels of it are determined by the time you are approaching adulthood. From there you are completely static, when it comes to how narcissistic you are. So you see all of these people on social media gathering all of this supply and assume "this technology is making people more narcissistic." But honestly, I think if you took that away from them, they would find the same supply elsewhere. And if they can't, watch out! They will get real mean and cruel. They will do more things that actually hurt people, instead of faffing about within their internet-born self-image. Personally, I think it might actually be better to let them have their internet playground, where the harm they can do is lessened and maybe, with their supply better met, will lead them to be less antsy to exact it from people in their families, or their friends and coworkers. The internet may just make doing that less appealing to them, simply due to the power it holds for molding an image. It's easier. The effect is greater. And it doesn't require you to take as much away from other people. And remember, most things that a narcissist says and does are not necessarily to get whatever is at the end... it's all done in service of that image. They don't care about the money, the clothes, the prestige of a top level job or a fancy degree, the hot spouse who loves them... it's not about having those things, but rather what a person having those things looks like to them and other people. That is what drives them.

The internet just makes it easier to see that aspect in people. It's like how people always say "Humanity hasn't gotten dumber - it's just more obvious now." Someone who is less narcissistic will never engage in those behaviors, regardless of what is around them. The only solution is to sequester the narcs off on an island somewhere. Really! Those people are not going to change - until the day they die, they will be narcissists.

But good luck with that. The same things that make a narcissist are in us all. We learn those habits as defense mechanisms in childhood, and in fact people need them to some degree in order to have a cohesive identity. An adult narcissist's behavior is not unlike that of a normal child. Many of the manipulation tactics are even the same. Parenting is often the determining factor in whether it goes too far. Behind nearly every adult narcissist are parents who were prone to both spoiling and neglect, basically leading the child to lean on these defense mechanisms too heavily... showing them that's what works best. Lying works. Presenting yourself as good in a certain way puts you ahead - being what people want you to be and burying what you want to be. Vying for attention in a negative way gets you stuff. Hide your feelings... bad things happen when you don't. When you don't have enough love around you, building a self-image and doing what you have to do to maintain it is just daily living. They never learn to adapt it in a more selfless, empathetic way, because they never learn how to practice self-love in the way a normal person does. And there's a window for doing that successfully. Once a child in that frame of mind reaches a certain age, they never come out of it... because in the immediate-term, it actually works. They fully integrate that way of operating into who they are. Many very successful people are narcissists. And due to their whole identity being based around this fabricated, self-serving self-image, you will never convince them that it is wrong. Nobody but them will ever be their number one. It's the only way they know how to be.

Cruelly enough, in developing into a narcissist, you lose the self-insight needed to even see it in yourself. If pressed, a narcissist will often rank themselves low on that scale, while rating other people much higher than them. And they really believe that! They actually can't help it! Kind of sad, in that sense.

Now, narcissistic parents hand their kids tablets or phones and leave them to it. But again, in the past we still had those same people raising those parents, so whether we have that tech or not, the outcome is still the same. It was just a different form of neglect. It's a cycle that isn't at all new.

Just because these things are used by narcissists to get what they want doesn't mean the things themselves make a person narcissistic. It's just become more visible than before, due to the public nature of the internet. My concern there isn't with the internet or the new tech, but in accepting overt narcissism, or more particularly, the parenting practices that lead to them. Once they're out there, you can't stop them from doing what they do and getting ahead without greatly restricting everyone else. We have to be able to look at it differently and stop fixating on the things that adult narcissists take advantage of. I wish more people would recognize that it is a developmental problem. It'd be like trying to get away from using knives because murderers are using them to kill people. And besides, self-serving behavior isn't even that bad to begin with - it is necessary. It only becomes bad when it gets to the extent of hurting other people.

To me, it's not the tech that's bad. It's just that going forward we REALLY need to emphasize self-love in our children and not allow them to become narcissists in the first place. A lot of these problems people attribute to the tech will probably go away if we do that. It's been a long time coming. If all of this tech went away tomorrow, we still would not have begun to repair the damage done by the proliferation of narcissistic people in the world. We actually have to stop molding them that way as kids and let the existing ones sort of live it out.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 15, 2020)

I never thought I'd say this on this forum, but damn, man. That is deep. You have a great mind, sir.

Maybe the take away is 'balance in all things'. I, too can see the benefits of this VR thing. I'm just a tad more pessimistic about people's general self control  But maybe that is our reality, to try and fail until we die, and enjoy the ride.


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## Xzibit (Feb 15, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> I never thought I'd say this on this forum, but damn, man. That is deep. You have a great mind, sir.
> 
> Maybe the take away is 'balance in all things'. I, too can see the benefits of this VR thing. *I'm just a tad more pessimistic about people's general self control*  But maybe that is our reality, to try and fail until we die, and enjoy the ride.



The mother was to the point of obsession about loosing her girls memory.  Pictures, videos, momentos were not enough.

Which many people argue that Pictures and Videos are the same to VR.  The Mother had these and she was still afraid of loosing her daughters memory.  She also has a bone locket of her daughter and frequents her resting place.


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## robot zombie (Feb 15, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> I never thought I'd say this on this forum, but damn, man. That is deep. You have a great mind, sir.
> 
> Maybe the take away is 'balance in all things'. I, too can see the benefits of this VR thing. I'm just a tad more pessimistic about people's general self control  But maybe that is our reality, to try and fail until we die, and enjoy the ride.


Thank you, now don't mess it up for me putting more thoughts in my head 

I get where you coming from too. I sort of teeter to both extremes. Sometimes I think it's not bad at all, other times I go to an extremely cynical place... one a lot harsher than anything expressed in this thread. I could easily satisfy either and probably feel good about it today... and then shitty about it tomorrow. So in the interest of self-preservation and good mental health I try to marry those two sides of myself and make some effort to never commit to just one side. Putting it out there kind of solidifies a peaceful coexistence of those two fragments for me. Sometimes I can't help it and I still go off just like everybody does. Interestingly, the negatives are more tempting. But I try to let it pass and then come back to it. I think what happens a lot of the time is a person takes a stance that resonates with some part of them and it becomes hard to separate one from the other, so you cling to it even though it brings more and more friction, eventually making you miserable. It becomes hard to see through the miasma.

It's a tough balance, being critical and pessimistic when needed, without falling off of the side of the cliff. I'm actually very prone to this and it's something I've had to work through. Still haven't got it right but dammit I try! 

I do think caution is good. I get this unshakable feeling that we're entering a new era and things are about to be very, very different for everyone. If people can't question it, we're really screwed. There's a lot of resistance to the questioning, which isn't good. There are going to be a lot of times when we need to look back on things. One thing I've noticed, from the time I became aware that I was a person till now, is that everything is geared towards moving faster and faster. Knowledge. Utility. Efficiency. All seemingly logical and perhaps even noble things. But sometimes the way people push for it and defend it doesn't resemble the outcomes those things are supposed to lead to... not at all. Things can get very ugly. For that, we need people who can look around and say "Hey, NO. This is fucked up!"


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## Vayra86 (Feb 15, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> It's a tough balance, being critical and pessimistic when needed, without falling off of the side of the cliff. I'm actually very prone to this and it's something I've had to work through. Still haven't got it right but dammit I try!



Same here... There is just no true north here... Totally feel you on this.


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## robot zombie (Feb 15, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> The mother was to the point of obsession about loosing her girls memory.  Pictures, videos, momentos were not enough.
> 
> Which many people argue that Pictures and Videos are the same to VR.  The Mother had these and she was still afraid of loosing her daughters memory.  She also has a bone locket of her daughter and frequents her resting place.


Well... in a way the argument still stands. It could be just an extension of the locket and the visits.

But you're right, she does seem obsessed to a very unhealthy degree. There's no real denying that, in this case. I think the opposition to the idea that this is inherently bad lies with the idea that it doesn't always have to be. Just because one person, or even many people abuse something, doesn't mean that it can't also be used for good, in the right hands. All things capable of doing the most good also carry the ability to bring about the most evil. The context is important. In this one, it could be wrong. But for others, that's not true by default. It's not so much that people just accept this particular case as being good (though no doubt there are people who see zero problems with it.) It's just that when you look beyond this case and consider the possibilities, some good can be seen in it.

Somewhere in the heart and mind of somebody who would consider doing this, is a need for closure that is not being met. For one reason or another they can't figure out how to fill the void. And everything they try to use doesn't last. They're too hung-up on these memories to move-on. I can see how it might be similar to medication as something that satisfies these dark, obsessive feelings for a while. In reality it is totally superficial in that nothing actually changes. Which is why you can't stop there. In the wake of that, you have to go on to things that actually constitute moving on. Novel, positive experiences, completely unrelated to her daughter or the loss. Of course, since she's not actually cured, the pull of the obsession will return eventually. And the hope in this scenario would be that by then, she would have some things in place that allow her to challenge those emotions - other things that also hold strong meaning. Basically, things that she built-up in the time when the obsession was temporarily suspended down on a lower level, things that she was unable to muster while being perpetually consumed by it. Just something to render a more positive frame of mind that carries to other aspects of the person's life. If you're really rocked by grief, everything seems terrible and it feels like there is no escape. It can cut you off from many options indefinitely.

After enough time of fighting it with a newfound sense of meaning, that may person may eventually be able to go back, face the actual reality of how things are, and make genuine peace with it. Kind of a fake it till you make it deal. It's definitely a place a person can get seriously stuck in. There needs to be a balance, but sometimes it is a place you inevitably wind up in... a shield that keeps you from completely falling apart. If the obsession is the only thing holding someone together, it has to be replaced with something before they can be whole again. You can try to yank it out and quickly toss something better in and that can work for certain temperaments and dispositions. But with others, you have to replace it piece by piece.


The application matters a whole lot. I think we can all agree on this: a private organization doing this and media sensationalizing it carries a lot of pitfalls and you have to question the motives. That's not going to be the way. It needs to be in the hands of people who care about what is actually best for the person. But that is surface-level. It doesn't have to define all that this sort of thing can ever be. What if this was done in a closed, medical, therapeutic setting? I'm talking, this person is seeing a professional psychologist who specializes in grieving. Someone who can do a proper assessment of the person's headspace and present the risks to them in a way that they can understand, before they make a choice. And once they make that choice, it's not like they get free, direct access any time they want. Only the therapist that's been working with them can make the call. And you can't do it more than once, or it might compromise the end goal of moving on. It's a controlled and monitored situation.

Even then, it would probably be considered extreme... something done after other, less risky options have been tried. At that point, it makes more sense. Edge case, fringe methods.

Of course, it doesn't end with the session, even if it seems to have a positive impact initially. They would have to continue therapy and talk it out to help them continue moving towards consolidation instead of obsession. The therapist has to help guide them towards attitudes and behaviors that make the obsession less useful and appealing. You can't just do this and say "I'm okay now." It's something I think can only really see practical use as something to take the pain away for just long enough to build-up new strengths. A little opportunity to operate outside of this confining obsession. It's a false peace with an expiration date on it. Its usage has to be very focused. A full treatment plan has to come first. And the person in charge of executing it has to be able gauge whether the individual is going to go home and think about it all night, or if it might allow them to leave it be for a while, due to the power it has over how emotions pass through. For some, it could be enough for them to convince themselves, for just a little while, of the reality that the person is gone and that it is okay. Long enough to do something more worthwhile than sitting around being miserable and maybe find something in thier life that can replace what was lost in a healthier, more permanent way.

The idea of people just walking into some place and doing this probably isn't a good one. Marketing would make a monster out of it. Though at that point it's still up to the people who choose to do that to live with the consequences. And I'd argue it would be more a symptom of their problems than a cause. As in, it is not feeding an unhealthy obsession - they are. And where there's a will, there is a way. If it ever became a problem, you can bet there would be regulation to follow.


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## Xzibit (Feb 15, 2020)

When you take SK suicide rank is in 4th spot. Metal Health needs attention.


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