# F 35 and MIG 35 at Paris Airshow (vids)



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jun 21, 2017)




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## Komshija (Jun 21, 2017)

The first one is an underperforming ridiculously overpriced piece of garbage. Literally. Pierre Sprey, a well known expert who designed F-15, F-16 and A-10, told the truth about F-35.

The other one is actually very a good fighter with excellent price tag and improved Klimov RD-33MK engine, improved maneuverability, improved radar and electro-optical systems; which at the very moment presents the best possible purchase and thus value for the money. In the world of fighter jets, it's an Ryzen Threadripper.


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## Ferrum Master (Jun 21, 2017)

F22 despite the age is still better. F35 really struggles to stay airborne, and the thing is empty now, how it acts fully loaded? Russian smokey engines are shit... they simply spoil all the party for them... lucky us lol...


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## Komshija (Jun 21, 2017)

Yes, early RD-33 engines produced smoke because they weren't very efficient in burning fuel, but nevertheless that still allowed them extraordinary dogfight performance superior to the main counterpart F-16. German pilots explained that well in the early 90's when testing export (15-20% downgraded) East German Mig-29A against the US non-export F-16C. In short, Mig's were proven to be superior. 
Saturn's engines don't smoke at all, but they were too heavy for Mig-29. Early Mig-29's engines were sort of a trade-off for the increased performance. Newer versions like RD-33MK don't produce smoke.

On the other hand, PW F-119 is good engine, but Russia and China are developing superior versions with better thrust. Even more, Sukhoi's and Mig's with 3D-thrust vectoring engines surpass F-22 in maneuverability and T-50 is already on the scene. Whether Chinese J-20 and J-31 with their new engines are as good is still a mystery. 
Every aircraft has it's advantages and disadvantages, but F-35 is a complete failure.


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## Ferrum Master (Jun 21, 2017)

Komshija said:


> Mig's were proven to be superior.



I read the opposite, exactly from pilot interviews. It flied like bitch, specs were mostly exaggerated, their engines still have a low life span, Russians lack metallurgy skills to develop single crystal blades, and seeing at their development trends, they even wont be able, even china isn't capable of it.

Biggest drawback is that that the thing has supermanuverably only while empty(that we see during airshows), while loaded it doesn't have anything of it, it even cannot turn(9G) unlike other older gen aircrafts including the F16.

F22 remains still the only gen 5 jet in my books. F35 is a beta test still.


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## Ebo (Jun 21, 2017)

WELL...wasent it last week that a Syrian MIG was shot out of the sky without ever knowing was hit it ?.

Western tec IS superiour to anything the russians or Chinese for that matter has to offer. Mabye SU-47 can do something aout that, but I have my doubt, since western development on fighters dosent stop at all.

Even the Eurofighter will blow that one out of the sky.


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## Ferrum Master (Jun 21, 2017)

Ebo said:


> SU-47



Shelved forever I guess, they didn't solve high speed vibration problem I guess. PAK-FA is the only thing, also I heard it is delayed...


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 21, 2017)

Ebo said:


> WELL...wasent it last week that a Syrian MIG was shot out of the sky without ever knowing was hit it ?.
> 
> Western tec IS superiour to anything the russians or Chinese for that matter has to offer. Mabye SU-47 can do something aout that, but I have my doubt, since western development on fighters dosent stop at all.
> 
> Even the Eurofighter will blow that one out of the sky.



That was done by a F18 Superhornet. Not even one of our best fighters, and not a stealth aircraft. The Raptor and Eagle are better fighters than the Superhornet.

Lets not forget the Eagle has a 10-1 kill ratio against all the opponents it's gone up against (except for the Raptor), and the Raptor has a 10-1 kill ratio in simulations against the Eagle.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 21, 2017)

I thought the F-35 pulled off more impressive maneuvers than the MiG-35 (especially demonstrating the ability to climb with little loss in velocity).  F-35 produces more thrust from it's one big engine than MiG-35's two small engines combined.  F-35 is therefore more fuel efficient and the engine is easier to maintain (minus the F-35B variant).  About the only metrics MiG-35 wins is cost and top speed.



BarbaricSoul said:


> Lets not forget the Eagle has a 10-1 kill ratio against all the opponents it's gone up against (except for the Raptor), and the Raptor has a 10-1 kill ratio in simulations against the Eagle.


And only when the simulation forces a dog fight (stealth doesn't matter).  Realistically, a Raptor will never let an enemy aircraft get that close.


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## Komshija (Jun 21, 2017)

Ferrum Master said:


> I read the opposite, exactly from pilot interviews. It flied like bitch, specs were mostly exaggerated, their engines still have a low life span, Russians lack metallurgy skills to develop single crystal blades, and seeing at their development trends, they even wont be able, even china isn't capable of it.
> 
> Biggest drawback is that that the thing has supermanuverably only while empty(that we see during airshows), while loaded it doesn't have anything of it, it even cannot turn(9G) unlike other older gen aircrafts including the F16.
> 
> F22 remains still the only gen 5 jet in my books. F35 is a beta test still.


 Sorry mate, but answer sounds like a pile of BS and some copy-pasted text from some self-proclaimed "expert".
Mig had superior turn rate, accelerated faster, and combined with HMS + R-73 it was unbeatable at short ranges. Neither aircraft carried long range AA weapons. F-16C had slightly superior radar, but Mig had IRST which gave it an advantage. That's what German pilots said. Besides let's not forget that this was downgraded export Mig vs. US non-downgraded latest gen F-16C.

Besides, Russia HAS monocrystallite turbine blades which are present in few AL-31 variants and I think that RD-33MK has them as well, since RD-93 has them for sure. AL-41 has them 110 % as well as civilian PD-14 and its variants. China might have them too since they shamelessly copied (stole) many Russian, British and US technologies. So, your claims are not correct again.

The other thing about Mig's lack of maneuverability when fully armed is only partially correct. When lightly armed, Mig-29 can without a problem pull 9 G's and pretty much the same goes for F-16. They both belong to 4'th generation of fighters, although the "ultimate" Mig-29 variant (Mig-35) belongs to 4++ generation, meaning that it's much more advanced than 4'th gen fighters and has close characteristics to a 5'th gen fighters.

For now F-22 is the only active 5-th generation fighter, but T-50, J-20, J-31, F-313 and others will follow very soon. Besides, "stealth" is a Russian technology and without Ufimtsev's work there would be no US stealth bombers and fighters, or at least there would be no such for a few decades. These are just plain facts.

F-35 is a failed program. Accept it. It's not an maneuverable aircraft, its stealth is questionable and its combat performance even more questionable. So far the whole F-35 program burned billions of $ and the single unit will cost almost 200 million $, which makes it not only a ridiculously expensive aircraft, but also the worst possible value for the money. Even if USA solves many F-35's issues, this will further increase aircraft's price to well over 200 million $.


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## Ebo (Jun 21, 2017)

In my country which is Denmark, we have placed an order for F-35 to come after F-16. 

The first should acording to plan be delivered in 2018-2020. Its not that many but were going down the drone way also, it's cheaper to let a guy with a joystick do your stuff than educate a pilot and mabye he gets killed.


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 21, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> About the only metrics MiG-35 wins is cost and top speed.



That was the only metrics that the F 4 excelled at against the MIGS of it's time, and after tactics were developed, they were enough for the F 4 to out kill the MIGS.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 21, 2017)

Komshija said:


> F-35 is a failed program. Accept it. It's not an maneuverable aircraft, its stealth is questionable and its combat performance even more questionable. So far the whole F-35 program burned billions of $ and the single unit will cost almost 200 million $, which makes it not only a ridiculously expensive aircraft, but also the worst possible value for the money. Even if USA solves many F-35's issues, this will further increase aircraft's price to well over 200 million $.


They've already built and delivered over 200 F-35s.  Most countries that placed orders for F-35As already have at least one.



BarbaricSoul said:


> That was the only metrics that the F 4 excelled at against the MIGS of it's time, and after tactics were developed, they were enough for the F 4 to out kill the MIGS.


Fifth generation stealth fighter versus fourth generation non-stealth fighter.  F-35 will get most kills on MiG-35 outside of their detection range.


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 21, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Fifth generation stealth fighter versus fourth generation non-stealth fighter.  F-35 will get most kills on MiG-35 outside of their detection range.



True, outside of detection range, the F 35 will score more kills on the MIG, but the problem is when the MIG does manage to get close. The F 35 will not be able to get away. But then again, I really don't see the F 35 being used as a front line fighter. But more like an attack aircraft or a stand off fighter. The Raptors will be doing our dogfighting for the most part. This how I believe F 35 will be used (fast foward to the 34 min mark)-


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## Komshija (Jun 21, 2017)

Ebo said:


> In my country which is Denmark, we have placed an order for F-35 to come after F-16.
> 
> The first should acording to plan be delivered in 2018-2020. Its not that many but were going down the drone way also, it's cheaper to let a guy with a joystick do your stuff than educate a pilot and mabye he gets killed.


 We all know how our European politicians operate and who controls them. Eurofighter, Raffale, Grippen and Mig-35 are all much better and far, far cheaper variants than buggy F-35. In other words, you'll and other nations who buy it will be saving (financing) US military-industrial complex, while US citizens practically paid for the whole program and will not receive a single dime from any kind of deal or sale considering F-35's. Let's not forget that despite F-35 is marketed as "multinational" program with external partners, it's almost fully funded out of US citizen's pockets and "partner" nations only obligated themselves to buy certain amount of these abnormally expensive flawed fighters. Basically, everyone except the US military-industrial complex and our corrupt politicians is on the loosing side.

Su-22 is an old, non-upgraded export aircraft, so it doesn't make much sense. Besides, Syrian pilots are nowhere near match for US pilots considering training or combat abilities.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Fifth generation stealth fighter versus fourth generation non-stealth fighter.  F-35 will get most kills on MiG-35 outside of their detection range.


 Theoretically. Pilot's abilities are much more important. Besides, Russians have developed years ago radars that are extremely effective against stealth, so F-35 has very little chance against Mig-35 or some other 4++ gen fighters like Eurofighter Typhoon. The system was tested in former YU when they easily shot down an F-117 and continued in Syria when SAA shot down an F-22 with export S-300. This wasn't reported by our media.


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## Ebo (Jun 21, 2017)

Grippen was the first to fall, then eurofighter, french Rafale is also 4th generation fighter which were not going to have this is 5th. 
We dont care about the money, and politics is politics, but we wanted the best for the money we were going to spend on new fighters

Nothing from the eastern side has ever come out that can surpass the west, and thats the trouth even if you dont wanna belive it.
Just look at F-22 that plane has been service for years now,, and nothing from Russia or China has even come close to be in the same league, and thats a fact.


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 21, 2017)

Komshija said:


> when SAA shot down an F-22 with export S-300.



I would be curious about where you heard that? Considering I live less than 45 minutes from Langley AFB (home of half the US East Coast Raptor squadrons, which are the ones that would go to Europe) and have several friends that are Air Force members and stationed at Langley, I have never heard of this happening.


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## Komshija (Jun 21, 2017)

That's a pretty bold statement having in mind that Russian and Chinese pilots never met US or NATO pilots in direct combat. What we had is poorly trained pilots from third world countries with export (downgraded) aircraft facing newest aircraft piloted by the best western pilots. Nobody can deny that. 
You got the worst for the money and I explained you the reason. A 200+ million $ flawed fighter is hardly the best deal for the money. 

F-22 for mow is considered as the best, but as I said T-50, Mig-41, J-20, J-31 and even F-313 will be out soon. Keep in mind that F-22 never faced modern eastern counterpart in the air.



BarbaricSoul said:


> I would be curious about where you heard that? Considering I live less than 45 minutes for Langley AFB (home of half the US East Coast Raptor squadrons, which are the ones that would go to Europe) and have several friends that are Air Force members and stationed at Langley, I have never heard of this happening.


 I think that this was from UAE and was shot near the Syrian-Jordanian border three or four years ago - at the very start of Syrian proxy war. I remember that Syrian and even Jordanian sources confirmed that. That happened pretty much at the same time when Russia? or Syria? shot down four US Tomahawk missiles targeting Syrian infrastructure.


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## Ferrum Master (Jun 21, 2017)

Eating too much propaganda?

Engines are utter fail, PAK-FA is delayed because of that, they lack the skills to make the blades that doesn't melt at the needed thrust output.  Since I last checked average engine service life is two times more for US/EU made engines versus Lylka and Klimov. Nothing has changed metallurgy wise. They burn faster as they need more thrust to achieve supercruise and thus the hurdle again.

China didn't steal what can't be stolen as Russians simply doesn't have the tech. Making monocrystal blades ain't a childs play. Also trying to make something and calling it monocrystal also judging by the facts kind of doesn't work. Chinese buy their engines from Russians for their 5th gen fighter tests, yet they fail creating their own just to fulfill gen5 needs, while Russians still doesn't have a working 5th gen engine themselves, like 30 years already, ain't it? That F* kolhoz has never ceased to be.



Komshija said:


> Theoretically. Pilot's abilities are much more important.



Practically rubbish. Tactics and information is the most important product, the pilot is only the executioner, also much more assisted by fly by wire controls (exactly this control doesn't allow MIG also the latter simply retrofitted designs marked 4++ to turn at G9).



BarbaricSoul said:


> I would be curious about where you heard that? Considering I live less than 45 minutes for Langley AFB (home of half the US East Coast Raptor squadrons, which are the ones that would go to Europe) and have several friends that are Air Force members and stationed at Langley, I have never heard of this happening.



Too much TV. Propoganda does a lot of fake news... lol


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## Ebo (Jun 21, 2017)

@Komshija 
I was there when that happned with the F 117, but that a quater of a centruy ago, a lot has happened since then.
Just look at all the crap the russians have sold to other countries arround the world to keep them save, it might function but it cant hit...end of story.

In Libya 4-5 years ago, all of his airforce was destroyed, my country did some of that, even before they came of the ground. All he had was russian made.


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 21, 2017)

Komshija said:


> I think that this was from UAE and was shot near the Syrian-Jordanian border three or four years ago - at the very start of Syrian proxy war. I remember that Syrian and even Jordanian sources confirmed that. That happened pretty much at the same time when Russia? or Syria? shot down four US Tomahawk missiles targeting Syrian infrastructure.



Eh, I can't find any information on it. Find it very hard to believe that the first air kill of a Raptor was not made world news instantly. No Government could have suppressed that information throughout the whole world.



Ebo said:


> @Komshija
> I was there when that happned with the F 117, but that a quater of a centruy ago, a lot has happened since then.
> Just look at all the crap the russians have sold to other countries arround the world to keep them save, it might function but it cant hit...end of story.
> 
> In Libya 4-5 years ago, all of his airforce was destroyed, my country did some of that, even before they came of the ground. All he had was russian made.



Let's not forget how fast we (the USA) completely destroyed Iraq as well. I joined the Navy at the beginning of that war, and it was over before I got out of boot camp.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 21, 2017)

Ebo said:


> Grippen was the first to fall, then eurofighter, french Rafale is also 4th generation fighter which were not going to have this is 5th.
> We dont care about the money, and politics is politics, but we wanted the best for the money we were going to spend on new fighters
> 
> Nothing from the eastern side has ever come out that can surpass the west, and thats the trouth even if you dont wanna belive it.
> Just look at F-22 that plane has been service for years now,, and nothing from Russia or China has even come close to be in the same league, and thats a fact.



Gripen is CHEAP -- Its a good bit cheaper then a Eurofighter Typhoon & Rafale and also much cheaper to run. Its very much an inferior plane in every way to the Typhoon and Rafale though. Gripen is like the 'poor man's' Typhoon/Rafale


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## Divide Overflow (Jun 21, 2017)

There have been some impressive flights from a number of great looking aircraft so far this year's show.  What's amusing is the F-35 can go out and show in public a hint of it's true performance and detractors continue to bash it on grounds it demonstratively disproves.  Underestimating your opponent is the first step to defeat!


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## Joss (Jun 21, 2017)

Komshija said:


> We all know how our European politicians operate and who controls them


Unfortunately most people don't yet realise the level of corruption and submission Western politics fell into the last 30 odd years.
Yes, the F-35 is a flop, same with other military projects like the Zumwalt destroyers; we're in for a nasty surprise if we confront ourselves with Russia one day.
But as the reaction in this forum shows the barrage of propaganda we are fed with is very effective.


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## cdawall (Jun 21, 2017)

I love these threads when people who have never even touched an aircraft argue specs found on Google.


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## Norton (Jun 21, 2017)

Let's keep thing civil here please- geopolitics and other drama is a sure fire way to get this thread closed.


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## droopyRO (Jun 21, 2017)

The MiG-29 has been beaten even by the Su-27, i don`t know if it has any air to air, confirmed victories. That is why most countries buy the latter.


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## dorsetknob (Jun 21, 2017)

*US Air Force resumes F-35A flights despite not knowing why pilot oxygen systems failed*

The US Air Force has today restarted flights of F-35As that were grounded by oxygen supply problems, even as it admits that it still doesn’t know what caused the life support systems to malfunction.

The USAF’s 56th Fighter Wing, based at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, grounded their aircraft last week after five pilots reported experiencing symptoms of hypoxia – lack of oxygen – while airborne.

In all cases the pilots of the single-crewed fighter jets were able to continue flying by using their backup systems, before landing.

“No specific root cause for the physiological events was identified during recent visits from experts,” said the USAF in a statement.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 21, 2017)

BarbaricSoul said:


> True, outside of detection range, the F 35 will score more kills on the MIG, but the problem is when the MIG does manage to get close. The F 35 will not be able to get away. But then again, I really don't see the F 35 being used as a front line fighter. But more like an attack aircraft or a stand off fighter. The Raptors will be doing our dogfighting for the most part. This how I believe F 35 will be used (fast foward to the 34 min mark)-


When the F-22 participated in simulated dog fights, it actually was pretty easy for Eurofighters to kill it.  F-22 is a very large, very heavy plane where the Eurofighter is more like the F-35.  Additionally, when an F-22 thrust vectors, it can end up slowing it's velocity to near zero which makes it a sitting duck for any aircraft pointing at it.  F-22 needs new, better tactics to take advantage of thrust vectoring without making itself easy prey.  F-35, on the other hand, should be able to maneuver like any average fourth generation fighter.



Komshija said:


> Theoretically. Pilot's abilities are much more important. Besides, Russians have developed years ago radars that are extremely effective against stealth, so F-35 has very little chance against Mig-35 or some other 4++ gen fighters like Eurofighter Typhoon. The system was tested in former YU when they easily shot down an F-117 and continued in Syria when SAA shot down an F-22 with export S-300. This wasn't reported by our media.


F-22 has a far smaller RADAR cross section than the F-117.  Syria did not shoot an F-22 down.  If they did, name the tail number that was intercepted.  I can find no records of it happening.


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## droopyRO (Jun 22, 2017)

Why do you people ignore the fact that beside the USA, no other country has the ability to coordinate and offer information to it's air force in real time like the USAF. The multitude of E-3, E-8, drones, satellites and other communication and control assets. Not to mention logistics and the availability of PGMs and modern munitions on a large scale.

Other countries might have better pilots and even better planes or weapons, but put them all together and they are not as effective as the USAF on a large scale war.
Just look at the failure that was the deployment of the Kuznetsov to Syria, 2 MiG-29K lost in accidents in a few days, they fought off conventional runways for the remainder of the deployment.


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 22, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> When the F-22 participated in simulated dog fights, it actually was pretty easy for Eurofighters to kill it.  F-22 is a very large, very heavy plane where the Eurofighter is more like the F-35.  Additionally, when an F-22 thrust vectors, it can end up slowing it's velocity to near zero which makes it a sitting duck for any aircraft pointing at it.  F-22 needs new, better tactics to take advantage of thrust vectoring without making itself easy prey.  F-35, on the other hand, should be able to maneuver like any average fourth generation fighter.



Huh??? The Raptor kills Eagles before the Eagle even knows it's there in simulated battles with the F-15, which dominates all other fighter jets in the world. That Eurofighter won't get close enough to kill the Raptor 99% of the time. I'll just let the pilots speak about the Raptors abilities-









EDIT:
I just thought of this also. Imagine adding about 120-150 (this is a guess based on it's size compared to the size of current manned US Navy aircraft) of these per CVN in the area. 5-10 F-22, 15-20 F-35, and 250-300 weaponized stealth drones. There is no current Air Force that could deal with that without using an EMP (which would also damaged their infrastructure).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B

And then, on top of that, since they are drones, if need be, once their weapons are depleted, they can also be used as a missile themselves, Kamikaze style (but without sacrificing a pilot) Yeah, I'm talking out my ass now, but it's not like it couldn't happen if needed to.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 22, 2017)

droopyRO said:


> Why do you people ignore the fact that beside the USA, no other country has the ability to coordinate and offer information to it's air force in real time like the USAF. The multitude of E-3, E-8, drones, satellites and other communication and control assets. Not to mention logistics and the availability of PGMs and modern munitions on a large scale.
> 
> Other countries might have better pilots and even better planes or weapons, but put them all together and they are not as effective as the USAF on a large scale war.
> Just look at the failure that was the deployment of the Kuznetsov to Syria, 2 MiG-29K lost in accidents in a few days, they fought off conventional runways for the remainder of the deployment.


USA shares much of that technology with other NATO members.  NATO members coordinate a lot in theaters of war.



BarbaricSoul said:


> Huh??? The Raptor kills Eagles before the Eagle even knows it's there in simulated battles with the F-15, which dominates all other fighter jets in the world. That Eurofighter won't get close enough to kill the Raptor 99% of the time. I'll just let the pilots speak about the Raptors abilities-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These may be the only F-22’s Achilles’ heels in a dogfight against 4th gen fighter jets


> Apparently along with the Rafale, one aircraft which proved to be a real threat for the F-22 is the Eurofighter Typhoon: during the 2012 Red Flag-Alaska, the German Eurofighters not only held their own, but reportedly achieved several kills on the Raptors.


Farnborough 2012: "Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch" Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska

The Rules of Engagement likely demanded a dogfight where F-22 isn't at its best.  Consider the F-22 has limited payload while maintaining stealth, this kind of engagement isn't impossible.


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## Komshija (Jun 22, 2017)

Ferrum Master said:


> Eating too much propaganda?
> 
> Engines are utter fail, PAK-FA is delayed because of that, they lack the skills to make the blades that doesn't melt at the needed thrust output.  Since I last checked average engine service life is two times more for US/EU made engines versus Lylka and Klimov. Nothing has changed metallurgy wise. They burn faster as they need more thrust to achieve supercruise and thus the hurdle again.
> 
> China didn't steal what can't be stolen as Russians simply doesn't have the tech. Making monocrystal blades ain't a childs play. Also trying to make something and calling it monocrystal also judging by the facts kind of doesn't work. Chinese buy their engines from Russians for their 5th gen fighter tests, yet they fail creating their own just to fulfill gen5 needs, while Russians still doesn't have a working 5th gen engine themselves, like 30 years already, ain't it? That F* kolhoz has never ceased to be.


Nope. But seems that you do. Hollywood movies are far from the reality.

Engines that were on T-50 prototype were the first, initial version which was designed to power cancelled project Mig 1.44. Newer engines are already there, with better dry & wet thrust compared to F-119, but seems to me that they lack funds to put them into production. Service life for new Russian engines is practically the same as for new western ones and I don't know ehere you pulled from that info. Let's not forget that Russia doesn't maintain the engines after every flight like USA does, so naturally, engines service life will suffer. Older and even modern Russian engines have pretty much the same service life as their western counterparts. For Instance, F-100 on F-16C has service life of 1000 house, while initial AL-31 on Su-27 had 1500 hours. Most modern Russian engines such as RD-33MK on Mig-35 have service life of 4000 hours which puts them above their western counterparts, even if you don't like that fact.

Chine stole much of the stealth technology from cancelled YF-23 and crappy F-35, while their WS-15 was made thanks to stolen data from AL-41 variants. Since it's confirmed that Russia has the technology for making monocrystallite blades, it's ridiculous to claim otherwise. As far as I know, monocrystallite blades are the least of a problem for Russians to make a powerful engine for their 5'th gen fighters. Funds are much bigger problem for them. They developed various fancy technologies which were beyonf anything west (USA) has, but eventually abandoned them because they were too expensive and not cost efficient according to their doctrine.



Ferrum Master said:


> Practically rubbish. Tactics and information is the most important product, the pilot is only the executioner, also much more assisted by fly by wire controls (exactly this control doesn't allow MIG also the latter simply retrofitted designs marked 4++ to turn at G9).


 You watch too much Hollywood movies.
Both countries have more advanced field information, so it depends on tactics and pilot. Even with good tactics and plenty of information an the battlefield, without a good pilot you will not be able to do much. That's why Russian, US and Chinese pilots train much more than, for instance, Syrian, Libyan or other pilots who neither have capabilities (funds) nor advanced weaponry.



Ferrum Master said:


> Too much TV. Propoganda does a lot of fake news... lol


 That might be partially true, since there was very little information about that. Nevertheless, US gvt would deny the incident if it happened, just like they deny many other things untill proven otherwise. If your most advanced aircraft gets hit, I think that pretty much every government would try to hide or deny that. At the moment, and I think that was somewhere in the summer 2013, Syrian and Jordanian sources said that they shot down 4 Tomahawk missiles and that F-22 crashed near Syrian-Jordanian border likely due to being hit by SAM. Syria at the time did have at least one S-300 battery, which is capable shooting down an F-22 and other stealth aircraft. If you like, it's not capable according to Hollywood movies and some propaganda articles, but in reality it is. Even a few western military experts confirmed that. I remember that after the alleged incident USA stopped illegal military activities in Syria, so all this could make sense or at least make you think twice.



BarbaricSoul said:


> Eh, I can't find any information on it. Find it very hard to believe that the first air kill of a Raptor was not made world news instantly. No Government could have suppressed that information throughout the whole world.


 Look the answer above.



BarbaricSoul said:


> Let's not forget how fast we (the USA) completely destroyed Iraq as well. I joined the Navy at the beginning of that war, and it was over before I got out of boot camp.


 Completely true, along with 3 million civilian casualties due to direct or indirect (eg. DU poisoning, there's a documentary and many documents confirming that) involvement. The best technology Saddam had were export (downgraded) Soviet models with poorly trained crew. This is no match for any modern army - let's keep it realistic.


F-22 is certainly a fancy aircraft with many modern technologies, but it hasn't met any modern adversary with well trained pilot in combat. F-35 the other hand is an utter garbage. Even western analysts confirmed that, despite that's not in the interests of US military-industrial complex which will greatly from this program that was primarily funded by the US citizens and nations who foolishly spend their hard earned money on such overpriced aircraft. For the price of 200+ million $ per single F-35, someone could buy 4 Mig-35's, at least 2 Typhoon's or 3 Rafale's - all of which are superior fighters and much cheaper to maintain than F-35.


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## BarbaricSoul (Jun 22, 2017)

Komshija said:


> That might be partially true, since there was very little information about that. Nevertheless, US gvt would deny the incident if it happened, just like they deny many other things untill proven otherwise. If your most advanced aircraft gets hit, I think that pretty much every government would try to hide or deny that. At the moment, and I think that was somewhere in the summer 2013, Syrian and Jordanian sources said that they shot down 4 Tomahawk missiles and that F-22 crashed near Syrian-Jordanian border likely due to being hit by SAM. Syria at the time did have at least one S-300 battery, which is capable shooting down an F-22 and other stealth aircraft. If you like, it's not capable according to Hollywood movies and some propaganda articles, but in reality it is. Even a few western military experts confirmed that. I remember that after the alleged incident USA stopped illegal military activities in Syria, so all this could make sense or at least make you think twice.
> 
> Look the answer above.
> 
> ...



Ok, first off, if a Raptor was indeed shot down, which according to what you just posted, didn't necessarily happen ( that F-22 crashed near Syrian-Jordanian border *likely* due to being hit by SAM ), how would the US Gov't suppress that information from getting out though news sources outside of it's control? If Syria, or any US opposed country for that matter, would have managed to shoot down a Raptor, they would have bragged about it to the world, just like when the first U2 spy plane was shot down. It would have been international news, outside of the US Gov't's ability to censor.

Saddam's military wasn't a poorly trained military. In fact they were a Soviet trained battle hardened military, and if I remember correctly, were considered the World's 5th strongest World Power, behind the UK, China, Russia, and the US (that order could be off). Iraq also had what was considered the World's strongest air defense system in place. Granted, there is a huge strength difference between the 1st or 2nd World power compared to the 5th World Power, and we completely destroyed their air defense/air force within the first 3 days. They were not a "poorly trained" military. Inadequately equipped to face the US maybe, but when they had what was considered the strongest air defense system in place, who at the time would be? We just wiped it out like it was nothing with only F-117, and then let the F-15's destroy their fighters. And now we have the Raptors.

Yes, the F-22 and F-35 are outrageously priced compared to other available fighters. And yes there are other fighters that in a up close and personal dog fight are capable of defeating the Raptors. But let me ask you this. Do you really think the US Military is going to allow those great dog fighters to get close enough to the Raptors to get that chance? Those other aircraft are not stealth, and will easily be tracked and neutralized before they become a threat more times than they will be able to reach and engage the Raptors. Let's not forget the lessons taught to the Eagle pilots. And let's not forget the Eagle's 10-1 kill ratio against all the opponents it has faced. One Raptor is equal to 10 Eagle's when working in tandem with a stand-off missile platform like a B-1R, as shown in this video at time stamp 1 hour 29 mins.










Now I'm not saying that stealth is the be all/end all weapon system that can not be defeated. But that is not the only thing the US Military has available to it. Like @droopyRO mentioned, the strength of the US Military has a lot to do with how all of it's forces are integrated together to work as one. And as of right now, no one can claim to be better in that respect. Can the US defeat Russia or China, I honestly believe yes. But it would come at such a high cost (both monetarily and in life lost), that neither country would ever fully recover.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 23, 2017)

F-22 and F-35 are "outrageously priced" because they're fifth generation, not fourth generation.  Bleeding edge technology has a price tag and most buyers are willing to pay it (if they can afford it) for the advantages it offers.


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## R0H1T (Jun 23, 2017)

Komshija said:


> The first one is an underperforming ridiculously overpriced piece of garbage. Literally. Pierre Sprey, a well known expert who designed F-15, F-16 and A-10, told the truth about F-35.
> 
> The other one is actually very a good fighter with excellent price tag and improved Klimov RD-33MK engine, improved maneuverability, improved radar and electro-optical systems; which at the very moment presents the best possible purchase and thus value for the money. In the world of fighter jets, it's an *Ryzen Threadripper*.


ergo the F35 is SKL-X


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## dont whant to set it"' (Jun 23, 2017)

engine service life means nothing if engine/fuell controls allow it, see mig-25 mig 31 interceptors, both capable of mach 3+ one spell, and one pushes them, le: and "praying", if after pushing, the pilot can make it to "base"
more jet/small bypass turbofan powerd aircraft videos one might enjoy


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 4, 2017)

Images show the latest weapon testing, revealing the jet firing an AIM-9x missile while upside down.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2017)

From external pylons though?  Not stealthy.


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