# GeForce GTX 260 with 216 Stream Processors Pictured, Benchmarked



## btarunr (Sep 14, 2008)

NVIDIA is dressing up a new version of the GeForce GTX 260 GPU as reported earlier, with a revision that carries 216 shader units (against 192 for the original GTX 260). Chinese website Bear Eyes has pictured the new GPU. Other than the increased shader count, that should provide a significant boost to the shader compute power, other GPU parameters such as clock speeds remain the same. The core features 72 texturing units and 28 ROPs. The core is technically called G200-103-A2 (the older core was G200-100-A2). The card reviewed by Bear Eyes was made by Inno3D, called GeForce GTX 260 Gold. This shows that the GTX 260 brand name is here to stay. 



 




The card continues to have a 448-bit wide GDDR3 memory bus with 896 MB of memory. This card features 1.0 ns memory chips made by Samsung. On to the benchmarks, and NVIDIA finally manages to comprehensively outperform the Radeon HD 4870 512M in its category. Benchmark graphs for (in the order) 3DMark Vantage, Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts (without and with AA at 1680x1050 px), and Crysis, are provided below. To read the full (Google Translated) review, visit this page.




 

 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Jansku07 (Sep 14, 2008)

I think that it will be about ~5% faster than vanilla GTX260, but how about the price? This card can kill GTX280 sales if its too cheap, so I'm thinking that they will up the price by ~30-50 dollars or so. But if its too expensive then people will buy HD4870.  The colour scheme that Inno3d chose for the of cooler looks great, simple but pretty.


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## jbunch07 (Sep 14, 2008)

looks like they added a whopping 2-3 fps average. sweet! (sarcasm)
Still think this was a pointless move on Nvidia's part.


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## R_1 (Sep 14, 2008)

1 GB version of  ATI's HD4870 equipped with 5 or 6Gbps (1125/1250Mhz) GDDR5 will kill even NVIDIA's GTX280.


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## tkpenalty (Sep 14, 2008)

Amazing how they didnt call it a GTX1260.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 14, 2008)

jbunch07 said:


> looks like they added a whopping 2-3 fps average. sweet! (sarcasm)
> Still think this was a pointless move on Nvidia's part.



i agree with your point it is a pointless move from nvidias part the only thing they are demonstrating is that they are incapable of producing a better card than ATI/AMD and they are reforming recycling the older versions.:shadedshu


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## newtekie1 (Sep 14, 2008)

Smart move by nVidia, this should bring the GTX260's performance past that of the HD4870.  I'll stick with my 9800GTX's until the 45nm cards come out though.



R_1 said:


> 1 GB version of  ATI's HD4870 equipped with 5 or 6Gbps (1125/1250Mhz) GDDR5 will kill even NVIDIA's GTX280.



No it won't, the 1GB HD4870 just barely outperforms the current GTX260.  The GTX260 with the updated shaders should surpass the 1GB HD4870..



$ReaPeR$ said:


> i agree with your point it is a pointless move from nvidias part the only thing they are demonstrating is that they are incapable of producing a better card than ATI/AMD and they are reforming recycling the older versions.:shadedshu



I don't know what you are talking about, nVidia's GTX280 is still better than ATi's cards, I would say nVidia has produced a better card than ATi/AMD.  Releasing cards at different price points is how the graphic industry works, it is what they do.


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## cool_recep (Sep 14, 2008)

tkpenalty said:


> Amazing how they didnt call it a GTX1260.



Thinking of 9800 GT, which was actually a revised 8800 GT, you re sooo right.

If ATI wouldn't came with HD 4000 series, we were still going to pay 500 $ for GTX 260!


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## Psychoholic (Sep 14, 2008)

nice, 3 frames over the regular 260 ...  Hope it doesn't cost any more than the regular one.


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## choppy (Sep 14, 2008)

all the benchies are pro-nvidia arent they? as in suit nvidia better over ati


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## Scrizz (Sep 14, 2008)

who cares about vantage


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## OnBoard (Sep 14, 2008)

Heh, didn't notice the High text in Vantage, meaning 1680x1050 resolution +2xAA & 8xAF. Wondered why it scored lower than my 9800GTX+ =)

edit: tested with High my self and GPU score: 3660, so mighty fast those cards are.


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## mascaras (Sep 14, 2008)

> Testing concluded:
> 
> Performance-class products as the ATI Radeon HD 4870, its outstanding performance to force the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 price cuts Versus, ATI is a small number of products in recent years to force the prices Bianzhen NVIDIA products, but in some GeForce GTX 260 still in the testing Failure to fully account for the performance on the edge.
> 
> ...


regards


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 14, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Smart move by nVidia, this should bring the GTX260's performance past that of the HD4870.  I'll stick with my 9800GTX's until the 45nm cards come out though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what are YOU talking about did you forget the 4870X2?and please dont tell me that it has two cores because it is just an excuse. nvidia is not ready yet to take ATI head to head in time they will have a better card but for now let us enjoy ATIs performance.


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## WarEagleAU (Sep 14, 2008)

Not so much a dumb move by Nvidia but a confusing one. Two different cards with two different price points but the same naming scheme? This should have been the GTX 260 from the get go.

It is amazing to see how much improvement there is by just "unlocking" 24 shaders....


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## EastCoasthandle (Sep 14, 2008)

HKEPC Review
Beareyes Review as mentioned earlier by mascaras
Results I've seen from reviewers aren't favorable on the new 260


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## Selene (Sep 14, 2008)

This is not what I though we would get, 1-5fps is hardly worth it.
Now maybe this will push the GTX260 to around $200.00, then have the GTX260gold $235.00, thats about the only way they can keep ATI down at this price point.

I wanted DX10.1 on this card, and DDR5, guess im waiting till 09 for new cards.


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## Selene (Sep 14, 2008)

EastCoasthandle said:


> HKEPC Review
> Beareyes Review as mentioned earlier by mascaras
> Results I've seen from reviewers aren't favorable on the new 260



GTX260 gold won 16, 4870 won 10, how is that not favorable.
this is the flawed logic I see all over now days, if ATI wins 1 and NV wins 5 ppl cheer ATI is king.
Just like the HC review 10 games were tested NV won 5, ATI 3, 2 were CPU bound and a tie, ppl still clamed ATI won.


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## acperience7 (Sep 14, 2008)

From what I just read in the article it seems that this is not a 55nm chip; Seems like a good way to waste cash. They should have just done this on their 55nm 260's.


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## TheGuruStud (Sep 14, 2008)

Selene said:


> GTX260 gold won 16, 4870 won 10, how is that not favorable.
> this is the flawed logic I see all over now days, if ATI wins 1 and NV wins 5 ppl cheer ATI is king.
> Just like the HC review 10 games were tested NV won 5, ATI 3, 2 were CPU bound and a tie, ppl still clamed ATI won, is their some thing in the red color that retards ppls ability to think?


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## EastCoasthandle (Sep 14, 2008)

Selene said:


> GTX260 gold won 16, 4870 won 10, how is that not favorable.
> this is the flawed logic I see all over now days, if ATI wins 1 and NV wins 5 ppl cheer ATI is king.
> Just like the HC review 10 games were tested NV won 5, ATI 3, 2 were CPU bound and a tie, ppl still clamed ATI won, is their some thing in the red color that retards ppls ability to think?



Look at the review and stop being so selective.  The 260 takes a noticeable lead when there is no AA/AF.  Once AA/AF is used the 260 lead is nullified and in other cases within margin of error.  Also, using games like Lost Planet and PT Boats have always done better on nvidia cards.  But when you compare the old 260 with the new 260 the results are extremely minimal when AA/AF is used.   If you have such a problem with the overall observations of the review contact the author(s) who created them and inquire there.  As I see it the results are conclusive enough for me to see it for what it really is.  And, those who currently have 260 should have no need to upgrade to the new 260 IMO.

The later portion of your post has no merit to my post.  I never implied or made mention to the ATI cards being better.  I was making an opinion on the new 260.  Funny how you completely overlooked this post


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## Selene (Sep 14, 2008)

well I looked at you system and saw the ATI cards, then saw you saying it was not good, you know ATI fan boys vs NV fan boys its all ways the same, poke them when you can.

Your right its not a huge jump, but its better then the gtx260, and IMO better then the 4870.


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## EastCoasthandle (Sep 14, 2008)

Selene said:


> well I looked at you system and saw the ATI cards, then saw you saying it was not good, you know ATI fan boys vs NV fan boys its all ways the same, poke them when you can.
> 
> Your right its not a huge jump, but its better then the gtx260, and IMO better then the 4870.


In other words you would have agreed had I used a nvidia card .  This is failed logic right here because you don't care for posts from individuals with a ATI video card.  :shadedshu


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## Caonima (Sep 14, 2008)

So much info from China.


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## Maelstrom (Sep 14, 2008)

Not that big of an improvement compared to the original gtx260, I was expecting more


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## btarunr (Sep 14, 2008)

Caonima said:


> So much info from China.



They make almost 90% of your PC. (China/Taiwan)


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## konstantine (Sep 14, 2008)

Caonima said:


> So much info from China.



I think you mean so much Bs from china.Nvidia didn't announce any new cards during their nvision.This is abviously fake.
If there had been any new cards,Nvidia whould have announced them during their N-vision.

The 4870 is like 17% in average faster than the 260gtx.Yet, it has 2.5x smaller die and half  the memory interface.The 260gtx is no match for the 4870.... the 4870 competes against the 280gtx which is it's real competitor.
And btw, i think that these rumors do affect negatively Nvidia's sells.


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## btarunr (Sep 14, 2008)

This isn't a rumor, it's a confirmed product. It was first reported about a month ago and now two sites already have their reviews ready.


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## Zubasa (Sep 14, 2008)

konstantine said:


> I think you mean so much Bs from china.Nvidia didn't announce any new cards during their nvision.This is abviously fake.
> If there had been any new cards,Nvidia whould have announced them during their N-vision.
> 
> The 4870 is like 17% in average faster than the 260gtx.Yet, it has 2.5x smaller die and half  the memory interface.The 260gtx is no match for the 4870.... the 4870 competes against the 280gtx which is it's real competitor.
> And btw, i think that these rumors do affect negatively Nvidia's sells.


Seriously, Learn2Troll:shadedshu
The fact that it is still named the Geforce GTX 260 means nVidia consider it as an upgrade of their existing product, not a new one.


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## Kursah (Sep 14, 2008)

It can't hurt to sell GTX260's with more shader units, can't blame them for that...my GTX260 runs pretty cool, OC's very decently and I could care less if it beats or gets beatin by any HD48xx card. At the time when I purchased it, it was and still is the cooler running, better driver supported, fewer failing option...plenty of good reasons to have gotten it and glad that I did.

As-far-as the trolling and BS brought to this thread, what's the point, bring something real to the table or don't post...not hard is it? If it is, time to go outside away from da keyboard! 

I am hoping prices go down further, I still may step-up to this if it's released before my 90 days is up.


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## konstantine (Sep 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> This isn't a rumor, it's a confirmed product. It was first reported about a month ago and now two sites already have their reviews ready.


It was a rumor ,onth ago and it still a rumor till nvidia confirms it.
Why didn't nvidia announce it during the nvision???
They announced the sli on INTEL's x58 support.This is not a confirmed product.This is a rumor that yet need to be confirmed by Nvidia. or its partners.


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## btarunr (Sep 14, 2008)

konstantine said:


> It was a rumor ,onth ago and it still a rumor till nvidia confirms it.
> Why didn't nvidia announce it during the nvision???
> They announced the sli on INTEL's x58 support.This is not a confirmed product.This is a rumor that yet need to be confirmed by Nvidia. or its partners.



Is there a hard and fast rule that they should? People have run benchmarks, pictured the GPU (which shows a new rev. number), what more would you ask for? If you don't trust Bear Eyes being relatively unknown, try HKEPC, one of the finest sites from the east.


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## Wile E (Sep 14, 2008)

konstantine said:


> It was a rumor ,onth ago and it still a rumor till nvidia confirms it.
> Why didn't nvidia announce it during the nvision???
> They announced the sli on INTEL's x58 support.This is not a confirmed product.This is a rumor that yet need to be confirmed by Nvidia. or its partners.



I suppose you never heard of a silent release?


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## newtekie1 (Sep 14, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> what are YOU talking about did you forget the 4870X2?and please dont tell me that it has two cores because it is just an excuse. nvidia is not ready yet to take ATI head to head in time they will have a better card but for now let us enjoy ATIs performance.



The HD4870x2 has nothing to do with this.  You based your biased statement on your assumption that nVidia was releasing this card because it can't produce a more powerful card.  They don't need to produce a more powerful card, they already have one on the market.  Them releasing a better GTX260 isn't a sign they they can't come up with anything better to compete with ATi, the fact is they don't need to.  The fact is that ATi has still failed to produce a core that is better than nVidia's.  They have had to resort to multiple GPU setups to even compete with nVidia, and they still have to resort to this.


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## Wile E (Sep 14, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> The HD4870x2 has nothing to do with this.  You based your biased statement on your assumption that nVidia was releasing this card because it can't produce a more powerful card.  They don't need to produce a more powerful card, they already have one on the market.  Them releasing a better GTX260 isn't a sign they they can't come up with anything better to compete with ATi, the fact is they don't need to.  The fact is that ATi has still failed to produce a core that is better than nVidia's.  They have had to resort to multiple GPU setups to even compete with nVidia, and they still have to resort to this.



The multiple core layout is way better than using a HUGE single die, IMO.

Besides, none of that matters at all. The X2 is still a single card, that plugs into a single PCIe slot. That's all that matters.


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## wolf2009 (Sep 14, 2008)

What a pointless card


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## Solaris17 (Sep 14, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> what are YOU talking about did you forget the 4870X2?and please dont tell me that it has two cores because it is just an excuse. nvidia is not ready yet to take ATI head to head in time they will have a better card but for now let us enjoy ATIs performance.



lol? Not only will the new 260 out perform a 4870 but a 280 alerady does. the 4870X2 doesnt count at all because it was never mentioned your telling him he's wrong and then referancing a card hat was never brought up id say your a tad off subject either you get all angry when someone syas something bad about ATI or Everytime you see someone say something bad about ATI you have to bring up a card that spec wise should outperform it. I wouldnt go as far to say that Nvidia cant bring up a fight if i remember correctly ATI almost killed itself trying to compete with the 4xxx series and if the graphs serve me still failed to bring anything to the table that could beat the GTX2 series in anything other than a few high rez synth benches NOT including the X2. I mean im sorry im getting a little brash but im seriously tired of these kind of comments HE WASNT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE X2 WTF? i mean ino i would have thought you ATI boys would have figured it out already let me sit you down and have a 5min crash lesson with you

ATI has GDDR5
Nvidia Gddr3

ATI 800 SP
Nvidia 240SP

ATI higher stock clocks
Nvidia lower stock clocks

AND YET no one has ever wondered why 240SP's beat or come close to the ATI's 800? like have you guys seriously ever tried to figure it out..or why your GDDR5 gives you no more improvement because the GDDR3 Nvidia uses still manages to out perform. Just take that in for a bit....nvm ill tell you now its called architecture 

ATI super scalar (inferior)
Nvidia Scalar(superior)

and that is why my friends your cards or not hot shit i mean seriously 800SP higher clocks faster mem still lose to nvidia's technically inferior product? ya id say ATI has some REAL POWA!! going on...Next gen please or dont pretend


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## newtekie1 (Sep 14, 2008)

Wile E said:


> The multiple core layout is way better than using a HUGE single die, IMO.
> 
> Besides, none of that matters at all. The X2 is still a single card, that plugs into a single PCIe slot. That's all that matters.



The multiple core layout has several disadvantage, the biggest one being that it isn't compatible with some things.  And the GT200 core is huge for multiple reasons, the larger process size, the 512-bit memory interface, and the inclucion of a section of the core strictly for CUDA just to name a few.

He was talking about the technologies of the two companies.  If you look at core vs. core, nVidia is clearly ahead.


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## konstantine (Sep 14, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> The multiple core layout has several disadvantage, the biggest one being that it isn't compatible with some things.  And the GT200 core is huge for multiple reasons, the larger process size, the 512-bit memory interface, and the inclucion of a section of the core strictly for CUDA just to name a few.
> 
> He was talking about the technologies of the two companies.  If you look at core vs. core, nVidia is clearly ahead.



Ahead???
It's not how many spu's you put it's how much computing power you put on the die.The 4870 has 1200 giga flops/cycle of processing power vs 933  for the 280gtx.
The 280gtx has 2.5x bigger die than th 4870 "576mm vs 234mm". Yet...

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15293/5
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15105/6
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15293/8
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-4870,1964-8.html
http:
//www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-4870,1964-10.html


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## oli_ramsay (Sep 14, 2008)

The 4870 still pwns the new 260 when AA is used, pretty pointless product if u ask me.  And another confusing naming scheme, it's like the 8800GTS all over again!


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## insider (Sep 14, 2008)

The vast majority of people don't care if ATI has the fastest single card or nVidia with the fastest single core. 

All we (most of us at least) care about is the best bang for buck price/performance card, ATI wins, for the manufacturers best profit margins for those cards, ATI also wins.

Smart efficiency vs brute force.

I agree this new revision with an identical model number is totally pointless with such minimal performance gains, would have been much better if they had just dropped the price of the GTX260.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 14, 2008)

here in greece the 4870 is still much lower in price so why should i care about anything above its price, and it performs very close to 260gtx . give me an answer that beats this reason please all you NV fans.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 14, 2008)

insider said:


> The vast majority of people don't care if ATI has the fastest single card or nVidia with the fastest single core.
> 
> All we (most of us at least) care about is the best bang for buck price/performance card, ATI wins, for the manufacturers best profit margins for those cards, ATI also wins.
> 
> ...



couldnt agree more


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## Kursah (Sep 14, 2008)

insider said:


> The vast majority of people don't care if ATI has the fastest single card or nVidia with the fastest single core.
> 
> All we (most of us at least) care about is the best bang for buck price/performance card, ATI wins, for the manufacturers best profit margins for those cards, ATI also wins.
> 
> Smart efficiency vs brute force.



Yes there are plenty of arguements, I agree that bang for the buck is definately important, but drivers, support, cooling, rate-of-failure are also important and should definately be considered by many. If you don't want to OC or don't care that a single slot is noisy or want to replace it, then by all means save some cash and get the cheapest model you can.

I am happy with the GTX's cooler, it's not very noisy, yet it's very effective at keeping mine cooled, whether OC'd, stock speeds, vmodded, etc. Fan speed is two clicks away and has been from the start. The drivers have performed very well with great stability in VISTA x64 of all OS's. I say go with what suits your needs and wants. There should be no ATI is better or NV is better here, just what should fit the shoes of what's needed by the individual. I've purchased from both sides for varying reasons, and for no reason did I second guess my GTX260 purchase in this current generation of released GPU's, both sides have great releases if you want to get realistic about it, both are more powerful than ever. What it comes down to beyond the pissing and moaning and techno talk is what flat out works and what doesn't for ya. Make your damn decision, enjoy it and get over it! Or keep waiting for that next, next, next best thing in 3-6 months!


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## Wile E (Sep 15, 2008)

konstantine said:


> Ahead???
> It's not how many spu's you put it's how much computing power you put on the die.The 4870 has 1200 giga flops/cycle of processing power vs 933  for the 280gtx.
> The 280gtx has 2.5x bigger die than th 4870 "576mm vs 234mm". Yet...
> 
> ...



I have to agree with Newtekie here. GFlops don't mean shit either. It's a theoretical number based on how many operations the core COULD be capable of, it can only achieve that number under the optimal conditions, which doesn't ever happen in the real world. Fact is, a single G200 core is faster than a single RV770 in most real world situations.

I also love how you cherry pick the tests that only show the 4870 ahead. lol.

Should I be calling you robspierre6? Cause you sound just like him.


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## Solaris17 (Sep 15, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> here in greece the 4870 is still much lower in price so why should i care about anything above its price, and it performs very close to 260gtx . give me an answer that beats this reason please all you NV fans.



you managed to switch subjects again we went from frastest card/technology advanced >price and performance your rite in that ATI is the best proce/perf of both companys but now i think your just switching the subject to be right about something honestly


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 15, 2008)

Kursah said:


> Yes there are plenty of arguements, I agree that bang for the buck is definately important, but drivers, support, cooling, rate-of-failure are also important and should definately be considered by many. If you don't want to OC or don't care that a single slot is noisy or want to replace it, then by all means save some cash and get the cheapest model you can.
> 
> I am happy with the GTX's cooler, it's not very noisy, yet it's very effective at keeping mine cooled, whether OC'd, stock speeds, vmodded, etc. Fan speed is two clicks away and has been from the start. The drivers have performed very well with great stability in VISTA x64 of all OS's. I say go with what suits your needs and wants. There should be no ATI is better or NV is better here, just what should fit the shoes of what's needed by the individual. I've purchased from both sides for varying reasons, and for no reason did I second guess my GTX260 purchase in this current generation of released GPU's, both sides have great releases if you want to get realistic about it, both are more powerful than ever. What it comes down to beyond the pissing and moaning and techno talk is what flat out works and what doesn't for ya. Make your damn decision, enjoy it and get over it! Or keep waiting for that next, next, next best thing in 3-6 months!



wish i had said that. the simple truth very well done


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 15, 2008)

Solaris17 said:


> you managed to switch subjects again we went from frastest card/technology advanced >price and performance your rite in that ATI is the best proce/perf of both companys but now i think your just switching the subject to be right about something honestly



you have my answer above if you care to read it


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## erocker (Sep 15, 2008)

Here is my issue.  I read that someone used the term "Nv fans".  Things like this should not be said as it may be insulting to them, and/or it can flame into arguments due to the fact that "fanboy-talk" is verablly aggressive.  This detracts from the original pourpose to why the thread was posted.  Stay on topic please.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 15, 2008)

ill try not to use that term again.sorry and thanks for the heads up


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## newtekie1 (Sep 15, 2008)

konstantine said:


> Ahead???
> It's not how many spu's you put it's how much computing power you put on the die.The 4870 has 1200 giga flops/cycle of processing power vs 933  for the 280gtx.
> The 280gtx has 2.5x bigger die than th 4870 "576mm vs 234mm". Yet...
> 
> ...



It isn't about GFLOPS, it is about graphical performance.  GFLOPs don't matter in gaming cards, now if we are using the cards for other things, then we can lookg at GFLOPs.  Die size doesn't matter either, it all comes down to performance.  The 280GTX outperforms the HD4870, the 260GTX matches the HD4870, despite the bigger die and lower GFLOPs.  You are making arguments about things, that in the end, don't matter.  Performance and price is all that matters here.


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## PCpraiser100 (Sep 15, 2008)

Gosh, what an increase on Crysis. I hope this is just another Chinese tech hoax cause if not AMD is gonna have to painfully plan another revision of the HD 4800 series. Or worse, overclock them so that we can't.


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## newtekie1 (Sep 15, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> here in greece the 4870 is still much lower in price so why should i care about anything above its price, and it performs very close to 260gtx . give me an answer that beats this reason please all you NV fans.



Well here in the US, the 260GTX is $225 and the HD4870 is $250, so why should I care about the HD4870.  Give me an answer that beats this reason.

The prices in Greece don't really matter to me.

Here is W1z's latest Price/Performance chart:







The HD4870 and GTX260 are neck and neck according to that, but with the recent GTX260 price drops, the GTX260 is definitely the better buy.


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## Scrizz (Sep 15, 2008)

so glad i got a 4850


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## wiak (Sep 15, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Well here in the US, the 260GTX is $225 and the HD4870 is $250, so why should I care about the HD4870.  Give me an answer that beats this reason.
> 
> The prices in Greece don't really matter to me.
> 
> ...


depends what you wanna use it for
if you want to play Call of Duty/GRID then ATI = win
if you want to use it in a HTPC then ATI = win as in supports 7.1 Lossless LPCM via hdmi out


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## btarunr (Sep 15, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Fact is, a single G200 core is faster than a single RV770 in most real world situations.



RV770-based products can be sold for as low as $150, and I'm talking about finished ones. ATI has delivered wtf-levels of performance at a very low price point. G92/G94 is history. Only UNICEF rescue-aid kind of pricing can sell it in today's market. RV770 wasn't designed to take on G200 either. It's become a policy for ATI _not_ to develop large monolithic GPUs ever, instead develop powerful, cheap GPUs that can be used in dual-GPU boards to compete against monolithic high-end from NVIDIA, or single ones in high/mainstream boards. That scheme didn't quite take-off with RV670, apparently with RV770 it just worked.


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## konstantine (Sep 15, 2008)

btarunr said:


> RV770-based products can be sold for as low as $150, and I'm talking about finished ones. ATI has delivered wtf-levels of performance at a very low price point. G92/G94 is history. Only UNICEF rescue-aid kind of pricing can sell it in today's market. RV770 wasn't designed to take on G200 either. It's become a policy for ATI _not_ to develop large monolithic GPUs ever, instead develop powerful, cheap GPUs that can be used in dual-GPU boards to compete against monolithic high-end from NVIDIA, or single ones in high/mainstream boards. That scheme didn't quite take-off with RV670, apparently with RV770 it just worked.



Yup the R770 wasn't design to compete against the g200 series.AMD didn't expect Nvidia to deliver such average level of performance with their new cards.I mean The 280gtx is not even faster than the older 9800gx2 inspite of the huge die size of the card.What happened is that the 4870 appeared to be a win.The card competes with Nvidia's top end card with less than half the die size and 65% of its power consumption.
Anyways, the more competition there is the better choices we "consumers" have.


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## Wile E (Sep 15, 2008)

btarunr said:


> RV770-based products can be sold for as low as $150, and I'm talking about finished ones. ATI has delivered wtf-levels of performance at a very low price point. G92/G94 is history. Only UNICEF rescue-aid kind of pricing can sell it in today's market. RV770 wasn't designed to take on G200 either. It's become a policy for ATI _not_ to develop large monolithic GPUs ever, instead develop powerful, cheap GPUs that can be used in dual-GPU boards to compete against monolithic high-end from NVIDIA, or single ones in high/mainstream boards. That scheme didn't quite take-off with RV670, apparently with RV770 it just worked.



I didn't mention anything about price to performance. It was mentioned that RV770 is more powerful than G200, when it isn't. I was only commenting on the FUD posted, not whether the RV770 is a good product or not. I already know it is.


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## Nick89 (Sep 15, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> Smart move by nVidia, this should bring the GTX260's performance past that of the HD4870.  I'll stick with my 9800GTX's until the 45nm cards come out though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nVidia's GTX280 is still better than ATi's cards
is still better than ATi's cards
better than ATi's cards

Has never heard of a 4870X2


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> here in greece the 4870 is still much lower in price so why should i care about anything above its price, and it performs very close to 260gtx . give me an answer that beats this reason please all you NV fans.



That was actually a funny pointless (and egocentric) argument. Well newtekie already gave you a reason and I'm not really a fan of any brand, just the best bang for the buck, but if you really thought you had a point there, I'll give you another more important one (than yours, not newtekie's). In Spain GTX260 can be found way cheaper than HD4870. There you have. Overall sales in Spain are WAY HIGHER than on Greece, yet way smaller than the ones on the rest of the world. What I mean is who really cares the price of the cards in Greece? 

Prices from Newegg. Are the first ones that appear when you sort them out by lowest price:

GTX260 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133229 - $240, $220 after MIR.

The list: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&Description=gtx 260&bop=And&Order=PRICE

HD4870 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814129113 - $260

The list: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&Description=hd4870&bop=And&Order=PRICE

Actually the cheaper one after MIR is the Palit one at $250 after MIR, but you can see the difference between both cards at this moment.

In the end is a matter of choice, but based purely on price/performance Nvidia right now wins hands down. Following your logic, most people in the world (based on number of buyers) shouldn't even consider the HD4870, right?


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## btarunr (Sep 15, 2008)

Nick89 said:


> nVidia's GTX280 is still better than ATi's cards
> is still better than ATi's cards
> better than ATi's cards
> 
> ...



Post something worthwhile, how does calling someone a fanboy help this discussion? You need to see his perspective, not just his post. Yes, the GTX 280 is better. For as low as $420, that's a hell of a card versus a $549 4870 X2, and there are reasons to back that statement. Try to read thru the thread or make a credible argument, not "omg lolololol, fanboy".


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## Baam (Sep 15, 2008)

ATI happens to be top dog atm which gives them the benefit of setting 

the higher price much like Nvidia did when they where on top.


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

btarunr said:


> RV770-based products can be sold for as low as $150, and I'm talking about finished ones. ATI has delivered wtf-levels of performance at a very low price point. G92/G94 is history. Only UNICEF rescue-aid kind of pricing can sell it in today's market. RV770 wasn't designed to take on G200 either. It's become a policy for ATI _not_ to develop large monolithic GPUs ever, instead develop powerful, cheap GPUs that can be used in dual-GPU boards to compete against monolithic high-end from NVIDIA, or single ones in high/mainstream boards. That scheme didn't quite take-off with RV670, apparently with RV770 it just worked.



(Not really a reply to your post, just my analisis of the situation)

I have to disagree with Ati's strategy. If we talk about actual products, I agree that Ati has delivered the better mainstream ones this round. But to answer your last sentence, RV770 just worked, because Nvidia failed in the first place. Had Nvidia used 55nm/GDDR5/256bit (lower prices) or simply had better yields (better prices again), or would have been able to clock the cards where they wanted (higher performance that would have made RV770 slow in comparison), RV770 wouldn't have been so appealing. Also IMO NONE of them has delivered a good high-end card. Yes ATi's X2 is FASTER, but I would never say BETTER for many reasons. There's a lot more to a card than pure performance, like power consumption, heat, etc. 

That leads me to the point. We have talked about the chips, let's talk about architectures. Ati has talked so much about the benefits of multi-small-GPUs versus monolithic GPUs, but in the end what the final products show, for those of us that are not blind, is that the monolithic architecture has won this battle hands down. Ati chips had many advantages against Nvidia's ones in this particular battle:

1 - 55nm.
2 - GDDR5.
 2b - 256 bit memory interface.
3- No CUDA support. Today that's a huge advantage. Nvidia chips have actual hardware which is specific to CUDA. Basically that's adding many transistors (a good chunk BTW -> full 64 bit computing...) that don't help increasing framerates. Because CUDA is not established yet, that's a dissadvantage, but we'll see in the future.

Even with those advantages and Nvidia's 40% yields fiasco, Ati has not really won this round, because Nvidia has been able to lower the prices in order to regain the performance/price lead and still make money. Well that's a bit of speculation on my part, but one of the main problems was those low yields and if 216 SP GTX260 is feasible now, yields have improved a lot for sure. Contrary to what many people think, PCB complexity is not such an issue anymore. First of all, things are expensive when they are new and scarce (and they are not now, that is) and secondly, dual 256bit designs, although not as complex as 512bit ones, it is also complex enough so that the difference gets smaller.

Nvidia already had the performance/watt one, something that doesn't help protraying Ati's multi-GPU strategy very well to say the least. In the next round, both Ati and Nvidia will play with the same weapons (40nm, GDDR5, low memory buses) and common sense says that Nvidia has many chances to win every front by a huge margin with the simple evolution of their architecture. Unless Ati does something a lot more revolutionary than evolve/refine the strategy they have today, they won't have anything to do against Nvidia's next gen IMHO. Ati is been lagging behind despite their fab process advantage and that's a big one of advantage. RV770 was the secret weapon and has won, but not to the point it should have in order to demostrate their strategy is the best one long term.


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## Siman0 (Sep 15, 2008)

-too hot
not much gain
-too hot
barely any performance increase
-still too hot
thing costs as much as some small computers
-WAY too hot
face it nvidia has lost this generation 
-DAM thing will probably fail and fry like the others because its, too hot
this is also coming from a guy with 2 9800GX2s
-OMG its the sun
Guess what DAMMIT never wanted to take on Nvidia
-the dam stickers are pealing off from the heat
R700 series was made for efficiency, performance per watt, and performance per dollar
-omg water cooling is boiling
kicked nvidia's so bad they paniced and drooped prices like a rock pissing off OEM dealers
-i think im getting a tan

now on the flip side to this i also got ati cards here is what i think
-WTF Drivers suck
Nvidia still has grate preformance
-Stock heat sinks blow
Nvidia has kicked ati's @$$ for a long time
-it has almost 4 times the horse power but the drivers blow

that's all i can think of at 4 in the morning


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

Too hot? Are you kidding? Have you seen other cards from both brands lately?

Also I really, really, REALLY hope Ati didn't design R700 with efficiency and performance per watt in mind. Otherwise they failed so badly... No, they designed it with performance per price in mind and everything else was secondary. They succeeded and that's good.

TBH I like to think this way because it portraits a better and stronger Ati and we all want a strong Ati.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tbh,i dont care if my card is ati or nvidia.I bought my 4850 'cause it was faster than the 3850 i had and was the same price i payed for the 3850....win.

Also,there is faar to much fanboy slanging crap goin on,play nice guys.Does it really matter which is faster or cheaper or hotter or cooler.We are all pc fans in here and it dont really matter if your card is ati or nvidia,just enjoy what *you* bought and respect the fact that not everyone shares *your* opinion.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 15, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> That was actually a funny pointless (and egocentric) argument. Well newtekie already gave you a reason and I'm not really a fan of any brand, just the best bang for the buck, but if you really thought you had a point there, I'll give you another more important one (than yours, not newtekie's). In Spain GTX260 can be found way cheaper than HD4870. There you have. Overall sales in Spain are WAY HIGHER than on Greece, yet way smaller than the ones on the rest of the world. What I mean is who really cares the price of the cards in Greece?
> 
> Prices from Newegg. Are the first ones that appear when you sort them out by lowest price:
> 
> ...


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 15, 2008)

tigger69 said:


> Tbh,i dont care if my card is ati or nvidia.I bought my 4850 'cause it was faster than the 3850 i had and was the same price i payed for the 3850....win.
> 
> Also,there is faar to much fanboy slanging crap goin on,play nice guys.Does it really matter which is faster or cheaper or hotter or cooler.We are all pc fans in here and it dont really matter if your card is ati or nvidia,just enjoy what *you* bought and respect the fact that not everyone shares *your* opinion.



your the only person who is logical around here anymore, everyone here is extremely blinded by their own stupidity that they have to bash everyone who is not the same as them:shadedshu 

Those people are called sheep. Call me a hypocrite but it is the damned truth!


I recall this website primarily being here to help others who are having a problem with their "personal confuser" (Thank You Leo Laporte- Call for Help/ The Screen Savers)


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> i care only for the prices over here tell me why should i care about prices around the world isnt that logical enough? im not trying to convince anyone to buy the 4870  because i like it! my point was that in my situation the 4870 is the best choice. and for your information until the 3850 i owned nvidia cards and i was very pleased with their performance.



What was the point of posting that then? Why in the way you did it?

You have to take into account more than your country and *you* in a foreign forum don't you think? Price/performance of the cards were being discused, amongst other things, if you were not implying the HD4870 was cheper/better, if you were not trying to make a point, what was the point of posting?

I bought my 8800GT for 203 euros (retail VAT included, I think it was a typo in their listings, but since they have to follow them... ) when every other 8800GT was 250-300 AND cheapest HD3870 I could find back then was 240. But you will not see me, posting something like 8800GT was cheaper, why should I take the HD3870? Eh, come on Ati fans tell me.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Sep 15, 2008)

im not an ati fanboy darkmatter if you care, i just want the best that i can buy with my money and you are right in an international forum i should take into account more than just the prices in my region. as for performance you should agree that both cards are very close and they both are very good products wish ati had better drivers...


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 15, 2008)

boy people dont know when to shut up do they

People arguing like this will be the downfall of the site, because it gives reason for new users to not hang around and ask questions because they are affraid that they will be bashed because they have one companies product and not the other.


I have an idea how about i call in the mods to have this topic cleaned up and possibly locked because, fanboys always go into the opposing companies product topic and spew negativities.


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> im not an ati fanboy darkmatter if you care, i just want the best that i can buy with my money and you are right in an international forum i should take into account more than just the prices in my region. as for performance you should agree that both cards are very close and they both are very good products wish ati had better drivers...



Didn't call you fanboy, nor I think you are*. I don't reply to people anyway, I ALWAYS reply to posts and arguments, and it just happens that one of yours was illogical. I see *your* logic though, don't worry, it's just that when there are discussions about price/performance and such, arguments like "I can have XXXX card for XX" or "for me xx is cheaper" are way off, if they don't represent a reality for the mayority of potential readers. Especially when they are written in a way that it seems they pretend to be a fact. Maybe it's just the way I understood it anyway.

*Maybe you thought I did, because of my last sentence or something? I only pretended to reproduce your post using my own experience.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 15, 2008)

ya im a hypocrite, My Opinion:

I think Nvidia is releasing this Chip so they can sell the rest of the GTX 200 Stock off (I think the new GTX260b is basically a weakened form of the GTX280 (some defective SPs but not as many as the current GTX260).


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## PennySavre (Sep 15, 2008)

So there will be ones with 216 shaders on the 16th? (tomorrow)


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

eidairaman1 said:


> *ya im a hypocrite*, My Opinion:
> 
> I think Nvidia is releasing this Chip so they can sell the rest of the GTX 200 Stock off (I think the new GTX260b is basically a weakened form of the GTX280 (some defective SPs but not as many as the current GTX260).



Haha a little bit off topic here isn't it? 

About the "GTX260b" being a weakened GTX280. Of course, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what GTX260 is.

But about being it a way to sell the GTX200 stock, I don't think it's only because of that. I have said thi before, that IMO Nvidia when they design their chips their goal is to make the chip so that the second card can be the same one with one cluster dissabled. But in order for this you need good yields, if you don't have enough of them you have to dissable one more. Yields is the one thing you can improve a lot over the time, so possibly right now dissabling one cluster is enough to assure a high yield rate.


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## Gam'ster (Sep 15, 2008)

tigger69 said:


> Tbh,i dont care if my card is ati or nvidia.I bought my 4850 'cause it was faster than the 3850 i had and was the same price i payed for the 3850....win.
> 
> Also,there is faar to much fanboy slanging crap goin on,play nice guys.Does it really matter which is faster or cheaper or hotter or cooler.We are all pc fans in here and it dont really matter if your card is ati or nvidia,just enjoy what *you* bought and respect the fact that not everyone shares *your* opinion.



, Three cheers for common sence, I really hate when fanboi arguments spill into tpu really drags it down. Also on topic this is good for us, a bit of a price drop here to compete and more performance there its all good.


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## jaydeejohn (Sep 15, 2008)

Lets not forget something important here. The 3xxx series from ATI had price reductions because it couldnt compete with nVidia and the G8/9 series. ATI took it in the shorts having to do that, and also created a certain POV towards their product. Simple truth is, the tides have changed, and now its nVidia having to drop prices to stay competitive. No one would be buying a G260 or G260 with 216 SPs lets try this again model for 450$ now would they? nVidias trying to get some market share here, and they only way they can do it is this way. Nothing wrong with that, competition coming from ATI currently is tough. If its released at the same price point, I think its a win for everyone, as anyone should appreciate more bang for the buck. If however theres price increases associated with this card, it wil not bode well for us, nor nVidia, as once again we see a rename/charge more for minimal gain in performance from nVidia, which has turned alot of people off. Im hoping nVidia gets it right this time, and reduces the current G260 prices, and slips this new one at the old price point, then, like I said, everybody wins


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## newtekie1 (Sep 15, 2008)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> i care only for the prices over here tell me why should i care about prices around the world isnt that logical enough? im not trying to convince anyone to buy the 4870  because i like it! my point was that in my situation the 4870 is the best choice. and for your information until the 3850 i owned nvidia cards and i was very pleased with their performance. darkmatter i think that you missunder stood my point and i liked your above mentioned point. sorry if i pissed you off it was never intentional



I know this is off topic, but it shows how immature you are.  If I, being an American, had made the same comment about how the rest of the world doesn't matter, I would have been flamed to death.



DarkMatter said:


> Haha a little bit off topic here isn't it?
> 
> About the "GTX260b" being a weakened GTX280. Of course, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what GTX260 is.
> 
> But about being it a way to sell the GTX200 stock, I don't think it's only because of that. I have said thi before, that IMO Nvidia when they design their chips their goal is to make the chip so that the second card can be the same one with one cluster dissabled. But in order for this you need good yields, if you don't have enough of them you have to dissable one more. Yields is the one thing you can improve a lot over the time, so possibly right now dissabling one cluster is enough to assure a high yield rate.



I don't know why everyone is trying to make some kind of big deal out of this, this is exactly what nVidia has been doing since the 6 series.  They design their cores with this flexibility in them for this exact reason, so they can use the defective cores in lower card.  I'm amazed at the number of people that don't know nVidia does this(and ATi used to also, I don't know why they stopped) and the number of people that think the GTX260 uses a completely different core than the GTX280.  Usually, nVidia's entire high-end teir is the same core, each graphics manufacture only really puts out about 3 actual GPU cores each generation.


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## DarkMatter (Sep 15, 2008)

newtekie1 said:


> I don't know why everyone is trying to make some kind of big deal out of this, this is exactly what nVidia has been doing since the 6 series.  They design their cores with this flexibility in them for this exact reason, so they can use the defective cores in lower card.  I'm amazed at the number of people that don't know nVidia does this(and ATi used to also, I don't know why they stopped) and the number of people that think the GTX260 uses a completely different core than the GTX280.  Usually, nVidia's entire high-end teir is the same core, each graphics manufacture only really puts out about 3 actual GPU cores each generation.



Yeah that amazes me too. 

I suppose Ati stopped doing it, first, because of the architecture they decided to use didn't permit it really well (you lose 25% of the chip with each cluster on R600/RV670, ring bus, the arrangement of TMUs) and at the same time because yields were high enough to not justify the move. That along with the fact they didn't push the fab process to it's limits. Now for RV770 the only argument of the above that is still valid is that they probably have enough yields, as there's nothing preventing them from doing it again, so I dunno.

You have to take into account they already have one SP for redundancy on each SIMD array, so I supppose that already works out well for them. Even if they have to throw away some chips, they probably save some money because they don't have to test all the chips to see it's working units, just how far in Mhz they can go. You lose a bit in manufacturing, you save a bit on QA, I guess.


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## Rapid (Sep 15, 2008)

Dear God!

I read through this forum a lot, reviews, tips/ tricks etc. And I definitely agree with the point made earlier that people get so fanboy'd up about things. From what I can see many people stick their nose in and argue about things that they know nothing about. Other than the fact that they have some blind loyalty to a brand.

What people fail to realise is that being devoted to one company blinds them from the fact that another company may release a product that is better for them, cheaper etc.

I agree with having a healthy conversation / debate about the pros and cons of a product, but FFS stop getting so immature about it all.


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## erocker (Sep 15, 2008)

erocker said:


> Here is my issue.  I read that someone used the term "Nv fans".  Things like this should not be said as it may be insulting to them, and/or it can flame into arguments due to the fact that "fanboy-talk" is verablly aggressive.  This detracts from the original pourpose to why the thread was posted.  Stay on topic please.





Nick89 said:


> nVidia's GTX280 is still better than ATi's cards
> is still better than ATi's cards
> better than ATi's cards
> 
> ...



Perhaps you should heed my warnings before posting.


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## Nick89 (Sep 16, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Post something worthwhile, how does calling someone a fanboy help this discussion? You need to see his perspective, not just his post. Yes, the GTX 280 is better. For as low as $420, that's a hell of a card versus a $549 4870 X2, and there are reasons to back that statement. Try to read thru the thread or make a credible argument, not "omg lolololol, fanboy".



Sorry Btr, But he's always bashing ATI. I just find it funny he says he not a fanboy.

next time I will post something worthwhile.

Also it takes two GTX280's to beat one 4870X2, so 549$ or 840$


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## Nick89 (Sep 16, 2008)

erocker said:


> Perhaps you should heed my warnings before posting.



I've been at work all day sorry Erocker. I'll edit the post if you want.


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## Hayder_Master (Sep 17, 2008)

the only point ti increase gtx 260 is trying to beat 4870 , but the original 4870 still win in some test's , but also 72 texturing units and 28 ROPs still interesting , and nvidia become do some things without think did they forget the gtx280 , i see the xfx gtx 260xxx edition tests and it is very close to the gtx280, the new gtx 260 oc edition sure beat gtx280 and i that time gtx280 become useless


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