# Whats best for me Air Cooling or Water cooling (for 4790k!)



## Master (Jan 13, 2017)

Hello everyone. 
this is a follow-up question about my CPU. (link which I asked couple of days ago). 
Short story : 
I dont know if I really need Air-Cooling or Water-Cooling? 

Long story: 
I got my 4790K yesterday and with stock fan, I ran some of my tests. 
It easily hit 90 C (194 F) and I noticed throttling happening (cores clocks would go back to 3.5, 3.2, 2.8 and then 4.2 and then back to 3.2!) 
My room was hot, maybe 35/40C (95/104F), when the temps hit 90C. I then opened my rooms door to the outside and the cold air gushed in and temps went down to 65-75C and kept going back and forth. 
Today I turned off the heater in my room again, the temps outside is 6C(43F) now, I guess the room temp is about 20C (68F) ( I don't have a thermometer, I'm guessing here, the rooms air is cool, but not chilly or uncomfortably cold!)  and the  temps fluctuate between 55~65C. 
my current temps (a test is being run) : 




When I increase the work load by executing a 1-minute-long function,: 




Now this is in winter! when the temp is around 5~15C (41~59F) at its highest , and the workload only takes less than a minute, yet I'm facing throttling !
I can't image how severe this can get in spring and summer time when the temps are around 35/40C and my tests last for days non-stop! 

In my previous thread, some of you gentlemen did me a favor and suggested getting a CoolerMaster Hyper EVO 212 . 
Now what I need to know is that, whether this suggestion still holds or I should be looking for a water cooler instead ? 

By the way, I looked for the EVO version and found out, it is not being sold here anymore , instead, a replacement version called Hyper 212X is being sold here which they claim is  the newer and better version, there is also a Hyper D92 version . 

Thanks in advance and please excuse me for being this long and boring!


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 13, 2017)

Grab an aftermarket Air cooler and call it a day.

Check out my signature Rig, its considered a slim cooler. My chip is also supposed to be hotter than any Intel Offering but look at the OC I have.


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## Kursah (Jan 13, 2017)

I run a big air cooler (Noctua U14S) with dual fans on my main rig's 4790K and a CM 212EVO on my server's 4790K. Both stay cool for what they are. Water will be more effective. I am starting operation delid on both CPU's this weekend for even better cooling performance on air. 

If I run OCCT I can hit the low to mid 80's on either rig. My main rig's CPU is OC'd to 4.8GHz, otherwise it'll load in the upper 60's or low 70s.

You might look at Cyrorig for a good CPU solution, I prefer their H7 over the EVO.

Your CPU won't start to throttle until 100C, then it'll throttle back a little bit. Or that's how it should work and has worked in my experience with Haswell and Devils Canyon CPU's. 

What are you performing load tests with? I've ran my CPU at 90C at 4.8GHz and it doesn't drop...so it could be work load scaling.


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## Komshija (Jan 13, 2017)

Pretty much any decent air cooler will be fine. I suggest Be Quiet Shadow Rock Slim, since it easily cools down my OC'ed i7 6700K and has a slim profile. It keept my i7 6700k @ 4,6GHz/1,344V under 82°C with ambient temperature of around 28°C (hot!) during 30-minute Prime 95 28.9 test. Just make sure that you have more than 161mm space inside your case - width from CPU to the opposite side pannel.

Other options are Arctic Freezer i32, Cryorg H7, Thermalright Ture Spirit 120 Rev A, all of which will fit in pretty much every mid-tower case.


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## Master (Jan 13, 2017)

Kursah said:


> I run a big air cooler (Noctua U14S) with dual fans on my main rig's 4790K and a CM 212EVO on my server's 4790K. Both stay cool for what they are. Water will be more effective. I am starting operation delid on both CPU's this weekend for even better cooling performance on air.
> 
> If I run OCCT I can hit the low to mid 80's on either rig. My main rig's CPU is OC'd to 4.8GHz, otherwise it'll load in the upper 60's or low 70s.
> 
> ...


Where do you live? Do you also have a graphics card in your case ? 
The actual test that I'm talking about, is training my CNN architecture on different datasets, such as CIFAR10,SVHN, and ImageNet. (CIFAR10 takes 1 day, imagenet takes more than a week) 
I'm also doing some random stuff such as this snippet of code, which is for dataset whitening :

```
mean = np.mean(data_train, axis = (0,2,3)) # zero-center
for i in range(data_train.shape[0]):
    for j in range(data_train.shape[1]):
        data_train[i,j,:,:] -= mean[j]

first_dim = data_train.shape[0]
second_dim = data_train.shape[1] * data_train.shape[2] * data_train.shape[3]

shape = (first_dim, second_dim)
cov = np.dot(data_train.reshape(shape).T, data_train.reshape(shape)) / data_train.shape[0] # compute the covariance matrix
print cov.shape
```


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## Kursah (Jan 13, 2017)

Montana, USA. Currently -7F, averages 85-95F in the summer, with 10-30 days going over 100F in recent years.

I have a 980Ti in my case. My case fans are on low so it dumps A LOT of heat into my case.

Ahh playing with datasets, nice. I don't play in that pool.


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## Master (Jan 13, 2017)

Komshija said:


> Pretty much any decent air cooler will be fine. I suggest Be Quiet Shadow Rock Slim, since it easily cools down my OC'ed i7 6700K and has a slim profile. It keept my i7 6700k @ 4,6GHz/1,344V under 82°C with ambient temperature of around 28°C (hot!) during 30-minute Prime 95 28.9 test. Just make sure that you have more than 161mm space inside your case - width from CPU to the opposite side pannel.
> 
> Other options are Arctic Freezer i32, Cryorg H7, Thermalright Ture Spirit 120 Rev A, all of which will fit in pretty much every mid-tower case.





Kursah said:


> Montana, USA. Currently -7F, averages 85-95F in the summer, with 10-30 days going over 100F in recent years.
> I have a 980Ti in my case. My case fans are on low so it dumps A LOT of heat into my case.
> Ahh playing with datasets, nice. I don't play in that pool.



Thank you 
By the way this is my case, What do you think? Is there something wrong cooling-wise here? I mean something that may cause air cooling less efficient or something I should keep in mind when getting the air cooler suggested in this  thread ?
(the actual dimensions are : (525mm x 225mm x 540mm)


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## Kursah (Jan 13, 2017)

If you're running stock, a Cooler Master 212EVO or Cyrorig H7 should do the trick. A Noctua U12S or U14S would work well too...but are premium coolers and more expensive. There are other options as well but the 212 has been the go-to budget tower cooler for years. The H7, when available is an excellent lower-profile, yet more effective alternative to the 212EVO.

Your picture is missing a lot of the rest of your case but maybe you could explain what else you have going on.

How many intake fans? Any more exhaust fans?

I don't see anything major around the CPU area that will cause issues...so a better air cooler will be fine.


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## Master (Jan 13, 2017)

Kursah said:


> If you're running stock, a Cooler Master 212EVO or Cyrorig H7 should do the trick. A Noctua U12S or U14S would work well too...but are premium coolers and more expensive. There are other options as well but the 212 has been the go-to budget tower cooler for years. The H7, when available is an excellent lower-profile, yet more effective alternative to the 212EVO.
> 
> Your picture is missing a lot of the rest of your case but maybe you could explain what else you have going on.
> 
> ...


there are two intake and two exhaust fans. the intake fans are 120mm and are mounted in the front of the case. 
there is one 120mm fan which is visible in the picture(the white one) and another one in the top (220mm) which exhausts the heat out,
these are the pics : 
case back top and full_details


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## Kursah (Jan 13, 2017)

That should provide sufficient airflow then.

Get a better CPU cooler if you want to reduce your temps and call it a day.  

Do know that these CPU's are capable at running at the limit. I've sent out a few systems where the owners didn't want to pay for aftermarket cooling and they're running great with stock cooling. But 4790Ks will breach the thermal limit on stock cooling under heavy loads and high ambient temperature conditions. 

But the thermal throttle limit is 100C, these CPU's handle it very well. Not that you should run at that limit, but you could. I prefer not to, hence the extra cooling.


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## Master (Jan 13, 2017)

Thank you very much


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## Kursah (Jan 13, 2017)

You're welcome! Please update us on what you decide to go with and your results after swapping. We always like to see how things turn out.


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## Master (Jan 14, 2017)

Sure thing,I'll update the thread when I get my cooler


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## micropage7 (Jan 14, 2017)

Master said:


> Thank you
> By the way this is my case, What do you think? Is there something wrong cooling-wise here? I mean something that may cause air cooling less efficient or something I should keep in mind when getting the air cooler suggested in this  thread ?
> (the actual dimensions are : (525mm x 225mm x 540mm)
> View attachment 83029


maybe you could consider lapping the heatsink and using better thermal paste and test it again to see how it improves
before considering after market cooler. yeah noctua is good , i used to put deepcool assasin to cool my processor but the weight is kinda worrying


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## Toothless (Jan 14, 2017)

micropage7 said:


> maybe you could consider lapping the heatsink and using better thermal paste and test it again to see how it improves
> before considering after market cooler. yeah noctua is good , i used to put deepcool assasin to cool my processor but the weight is kinda worrying


The stock cooler is a joke and even lapped with the best paste in the world wouldn't fix it. 

I used a Deepcool Lucifer on my 4790k and it worked pretty well, though at stock (4.4ghz turbo with 1.2v) a Hyper 212 would be perfectly fine.


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## Komshija (Jan 16, 2017)

Master said:


> Thank you
> By the way this is my case, What do you think? *Is there something wrong cooling-wise* here? I mean something that may cause air cooling less efficient or something I should keep in mind when getting the air cooler suggested in this  thread ?
> (the actual dimensions are : (525mm x 225mm x 540mm)
> View attachment 83029


 Yes, it is. Intel's stock cooler. If you are on a budget, buy Arctic Freezer i32 and you'll see drastic improvement. It's a very good cooler with attractive price (note: it's cheaper than official 46 €): https://www.arctic.ac/eu_en/freezer-i32.html


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## Jetster (Jan 16, 2017)

H80i V2


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## peche (Jan 18, 2017)

well, the cooler is just doing its best, if possible upgrade to a Hyper 212Evo or the 212X you said, that will give a break to your high temps,

Also giving some hours to manage the cables will make a better space for the airflow, your case seems to be pretty well designed according the given information on previous post, so be sure to have the correct airflow and quality fans,  that will finish your temp issues for sure, 

Airflow chart:





Also the option of using a AIO watercooling will be a terrific idea, even a cheap-ass Corsair H60 will do the job, you case supports watercooling according previous information about it, 




So both, air and water coolers are supported by your case, so you decide if you want to add a little bit moar aesthetics to your rig with an simple and elegant water cooler or go easier and simple with air cooler!

PD: great case indeed, seems well designed if possible bring an actual photo of yours to see how its inside!



Regards,


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## Vario (Jan 19, 2017)

Get a Phanteks PH-TC14PE or Noctua NH-D15 instead of a watercooler.


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 19, 2017)

Thermalright Macho. Cyrorig. Scythe Ashura For Air


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## Kanan (Jan 20, 2017)

A big air cooler should be easily enough, Noctua NH-D15 for example. I always prefer air coolers until water becomes necessary, but the 4790k won't need it.


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## mcraygsx (Jan 20, 2017)

Kanan said:


> A big air cooler should be easily enough, Noctua NH-D15 for example. I always prefer air coolers until water becomes necessary, but the 4790k won't need it.



I still used my 6+ year old Noctua NH-D14. I used it to cool my old 3770, 4770K-> 4790K -> 6700k -> 5930K  and now sitting on 7700K ( w/ Gelid GC-Extreme paste). Always used it as a passive cooler, never installed the included fans since I don't OC my CPU's that much (nothing over 1.3v). I plan to get many more years out of it. With CPU's architecture getting more efficient, will I ever purchase a Liquid CPU Cooler? Perhaps not.

I made up my mind to purchased Corsair Hydro series liquid cooler on many occasions but it was not easy to let go of the fact that my Noctua generates no noise.

But Noctua NH-D15 gets my vote plus the included 140mm fans are of high quality.


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## jaggerwild (Jan 20, 2017)

"What do you think? Is there something wrong cooling-wise here?" yeah the stock cooler on an i7, for $25 get a decent cooler to chill that CPU n be done. I know its not overclocked but those temps need cooling either way. I'd never consider 1 without the other.


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## Kanan (Jan 20, 2017)

mcraygsx said:


> I still used my 6+ year old Noctua NH-D14. I used it to cool my old 3770, 4770K-> 4790K -> 6700k -> 5930K  and now sitting on 7700K ( w/ Gelid GC-Extreme paste). Always used it as a passive cooler, never installed the included fans since I don't OC my CPU's that much (nothing over 1.3v). I plan to get many more years out of it. With CPU's architecture getting more efficient, will I ever purchase a Liquid CPU Cooler? Perhaps not.
> 
> I made up my mind to purchased Corsair Hydro series liquid cooler on many occasions but it was not easy to let go of the fact that my Noctua generates no noise.
> 
> But Noctua NH-D15 gets my vote plus the included 140mm fans are of high quality.


I concur with that pretty much. But as I'm on the LGA2011 those HEDT 140w CPUs with OC generate a lot of heat, so I always needed both fans for the CPU to stay cool. Mid 2016 i switched to a 6 core on same platform and since then the Noctua is kinda holding my OC back, I can't achieve a save 5 GHz OC with it, it gets too hot and shuts the whole PC down, so I'd need water to do more, hence what I posted earlier about "as long as air is good enough, stay away from water". The way I see it, air coolers help with surrounding CPU stuff, cooling down vrms etc. too, whereas a water cooler just cools the CPU, so is kinda uncompromosing and extreme.


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## Master (Feb 23, 2017)

OK here is the update, 
I've finally bought a CoolerMaster Hyper 212X (the EVO version was sold out). 
I had a bit of trouble getting it installed(I have Asus H87M-E which is tiny! and also fastening the darn screws where hard!) but Thanks to God, I finally did it . 
I ran prime95 (v25.8). on stock fan I reached 100 C in immediately! 
and then I ran it again after installing the Hyper 212X, I get 59,60 to 65! C . (its been one hour since I started the test) here is a screenshot : 



Though I dont know why the cpu frequency is stuck at 4.1!(I did not overclock it , its at default config, whatever it was I did not change anything!)
I thought it would go on to reach 4.4Gh! but it hasn't! and the utilization is 100% as you can see . is there a problem here ? 

In any case Thank you everyone again for your great help. I appreciate it 
God Bless you all


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## Kursah (Feb 23, 2017)

Looks good!

Turbo works like this, 4.4GHz for 1 core, 4.3GHz for 2 cores, 4.2GHz for 3 cores, and 4.1GHz for 4 cores under default turbo rules. In your EFI/BIOS, you should have a setting to unlock or sync turbo frequencies. Keep in mind that Intel does this to meet their power consumption specs for OEM ratings which is why it works this way. There's some articles out there if you need more info, but really I think all you want to do is get your i7 operating the same on all cores and I don't blame you.

I have a Asus Z87-Pro, I'll try to look up the value to change when I get home...it'll allow all 4 cores to run at max turbo (stock is 4.4GHz). Your temps and power consumption will increase a little further, but its worth it IMHO.

Edit... I did a quick Google and found that it is the Asus Multicore Enhancement setting you need to enable if your board has it. I have attached a screenshot I found from that Google search for reference.

Nice work!


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## Master (Feb 23, 2017)

Kursah said:


> Looks good!
> 
> Turbo works like this, 4.4GHz for 1 core, 4.3GHz for 2 cores, 4.2GHz for 3 cores, and 4.1GHz for 4 cores under default turbo rules. In your EFI/BIOS, you should have a setting to unlock or sync turbo frequencies. Keep in mind that Intel does this to meet their power consumption specs for OEM ratings which is why it works this way. There's some articles out there if you need more info, but really I think all you want to do is get your i7 operating the same on all cores and I don't blame you.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much  
I'm on it then


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## Kursah (Feb 23, 2017)

Keep us posted and good luck!


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## Master (Feb 23, 2017)

Kursah said:


> Looks good!
> 
> Turbo works like this, 4.4GHz for 1 core, 4.3GHz for 2 cores, 4.2GHz for 3 cores, and 4.1GHz for 4 cores under default turbo rules. In your EFI/BIOS, you should have a setting to unlock or sync turbo frequencies. Keep in mind that Intel does this to meet their power consumption specs for OEM ratings which is why it works this way. There's some articles out there if you need more info, but really I think all you want to do is get your i7 operating the same on all cores and I don't blame you.
> 
> ...


OK, I went to the BIOS, but couldn't find anything! it seems that feature is exclusive to the Z series and my mother board ( H Series) doesn't support it.


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## Kursah (Feb 23, 2017)

Sorry to hear that, but not all that surprising.

That's okay, really you probably won't notice unless it is the difference between a 20FPS game and 30FPS game, which isn't likely. Not setting it will keep your power consumption within spec, and your heat output down, so that'll be good come summertime anyways.

You can always keep an eye out for another Z87 or Z97 board. I've had this Z87 Pro since June 2013 and it still gets the job done without any issues. It's a full size ATX board though not sure if your case can house an ATX board or not or if it's worth it to you to replace the board. If you ever decide to overclock, I'd definitely go Z87 or Z97. Whichever you can get for a better deal, but make sure if you buy Z87, that it has the most recent BIOS/EFI update so you don't run into a bug where it might not boot with the 4790K Devils Canyon chip.


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## Master (Feb 23, 2017)

Kursah said:


> Sorry to hear that, but not all that surprising.
> 
> That's okay, really you probably won't notice unless it is the difference between a 20FPS game and 30FPS game, which isn't likely. Not setting it will keep your power consumption within spec, and your heat output down, so that'll be good come summertime anyways.
> 
> You can always keep an eye out for another Z87 or Z97 board. I've had this Z87 Pro since June 2013 and it still gets the job done without any issues. It's a full size ATX board though not sure if your case can house an ATX board or not or if it's worth it to you to replace the board. If you ever decide to overclock, I'd definitely go Z87 or Z97. Whichever you can get for a better deal, but make sure if you buy Z87, that it has the most recent BIOS/EFI update so you don't run into a bug where it might not boot with the 4790K Devils Canyon chip.


Thanks alot for everything . I really appreciate it


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## Kursah (Feb 23, 2017)

No problems.


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