# 27 vs 36 decibel HDD



## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

Hello,
I currently have a western digital blue which makes 27db while seek. it's 5400rpm.
Planning to upgrade, but all HDD above 14TB capacity are 7200rpm and Ultrastar makes 36db

is 36 too loud? My PC is so quiet when the monitor is off there's no way to say pc is on or off. 
Also if you know any 18tb @5400rpm let me know. Thanks

I'm a bit skeptical, because increasing fan speed from 800 to 1000 makes them significantly louder

WD Blue
Ultrastar


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 10, 2021)

If you call a whisper noisy I'd say you're **** of ***** matter.









						Decibel Levels - Measuring Dangerous Noise — Hearing Health Foundation
					






					hearinghealthfoundation.org
				






Lei said:


> Hello,
> I currently have a western digital blue which makes 27db while seek. it's 5400rpm.
> Planning to upgrade, but all HDD above 14TB capacity are 7200rpm and Ultrastar makes 36db
> 
> ...



Not even my VelociRaptor drive is as loud as a normal conversation

Who makes ultrastar? Never heard of that brand.


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## claes (Oct 10, 2021)

With all respect to the user above, I’d ignore their advice. Everyone perceives noise differently, and some are more sensitive to it than others. Personally, I’d kill myself if I had a velociraptor in my desktop. I ended up giving mine away back in the day because of the noise.

The general rule of thumb is that a 3dB increase is perceived as twice the noise. So yes, you will definitely notice the difference if your 5400rpm drive is bothering you now.

Unfortunately, once you get past 8TB there aren’t many “quiet” options on the market. If you can, I’d recommend picking up or building a NAS so that you can keep the noise away from you (that’s what I did ), or get two lower capacity drives to offset the increase in noise.

If you’re set on a single, high capacity drive, and happen to have a spare 5” bay, I’d get some thick rubber bands to suspend the drive. It won’t solve the seek noise, but it will help with noise overall.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

5400 is not bothering me. 

about decibels : WD blue 27db is much quieter than Phanteks F140XP @1150rpm which supposedly reports to make 19db (on the box)
Also Velociraptor is 37 whereas an Ultrastar both from WD is 36 - not much considering it spins 39% faster
I currently use a shock absorbing bracket, picture below.
Currently the only sound I hear is the hard disk, I used to think it's the sound of coolant flow, but I used HDDSpin.exe to turn off my hdd and that sound was gone. not bothering, sounds like a low light gas furnace. like a stove... imagine making tea on a gas oven before bubbles emerge. huuuuum









claes said:


> With all respect to the user above, I’d ignore their advice. Everyone perceives noise differently, and some are more sensitive to it than others. Personally, I’d kill myself if I had a velociraptor in my desktop. I ended up giving mine away back in the day because of the noise.
> 
> The general rule of thumb is that a 3dB increase is perceived as twice the noise. So yes, you will definitely notice the difference if your 5400rpm drive is bothering you now.
> 
> ...


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 10, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Who makes ultrastar? Never heard of that brand.


Western Digital bought out Hitachi, which was originally IBM. So the Ultrastar is a line of HDD models owned by WD.



Lei said:


> Hello,
> I currently have a western digital blue which makes 27db while seek. it's 5400rpm.
> Planning to upgrade, but all HDD above 14TB capacity are 7200rpm and Ultrastar makes 36db
> 
> ...


36db is almost nothing. In a completely silent room, you might hear it over the fans of your system and GPU, but not by much. And honestly, if you don't let noise bother you, even 46db is fine.


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## repman244 (Oct 10, 2021)

The noise due to the RPM of the drive (7200 RPM drives) isn't that big of a problem. The higher noise will come from the head when it's seeking.
Ultrastars are geared towards enterprise so noise is not a concern.

The noise from the RPM is much more noticeable if you use 15k RPM drives. YMMV


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> 36db is almost nothing. In a completely silent room, you might hear it over the fans of your system and GPU, but not by much. And honestly, if you don't let noise bother you, even 46db is fine.


My system only has two fans on the radiator at 750rpm. As I mentioned earlier, the only audible sound is the 5400rpm hard drive which is 27db
Are you saying 36db is louder than gpu fans in a silent room?



repman244 said:


> The noise due to the RPM of the drive (7200 RPM drives) isn't that big of a problem. The higher noise will come from the head when it's seeking.
> Ultrastars are geared towards enterprise so noise is not a concern.
> 
> The noise from the RPM is much more noticeable if you use 15k RPM drives. YMMV


spinning at idle for Ultrastar is 20 
Seeking is 36
Actually WD Blue is 3db higher at idle, which I think is because Ultrastar is filled with helium. I'm much concerned about the seek noise of 7200rpm drives. I can hear my 5400 pretty well.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> Are you saying 36db is louder than gpu fans in a silent room?


At 750rpm, generally no. But what I am saying is that 36db is not going to annoy anyone unless they are super-finiky.



Lei said:


> I can hear my 5400 pretty well.


But does it bother you? If so, the Ultrastar might annoy you, but then ANY performance or high capacity drive will also.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> But does it bother you? If so, the Ultrastar might annoy you, but then ANY performance or high capacity drive will also.


It doesn't bother.

Wait a minute. I realized that what I'm hearing all this time is 23db noise of my hard drive. The sound I'm hearing is from the idle mode. And Ultrastar idles even quieter. 
This might mean that with Ultrastar I may not hear the constant non-bothering huuuuum

From now on, I should inspect how much of the time my hdd is idle. I wasn't thinking about idle/seek until repman244 mentioned it. I was only thinking about max decibel. 

Yes my ear can hear 23db, even it's quieter than when my neighbor opens his sink  
I think if the huuuum goes away, I can forgive the louder seek noise if I'm just seeking 10% of time.


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## claes (Oct 10, 2021)

I’d just order the disk and see how it sounds. You can always return it.

Personally, I’ll never have a HDD in my desktop again, but if you don’t mind your 5400rpm drive you may not mind a 18TB 7200rpm drive.

If the hum is the problem I’d consider replacing your bracket with a bungee system. It makes a world of difference, IMO. Then, I’m the kind of user who mostly runs my system with all of the fans off.






						HDD vibration & noise reducing methods - ranked - SPCR
					






					silentpcreview.com
				












						Hard Drive Silencing: Sandwiches & Suspensions
					

Along with the CPU heatsink-fan and the power supply unit, the hard drive is a major PC noise source. It whirrs and whines just idling, and clatters and grinds when in seek or write mode. There are many ways to reduce hard drive noise. The simplest of these is to use one that is quieter.




					silentpcreview.com


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## Jacky_BEL (Oct 10, 2021)

I wouldn't compare HDD noise and fan noise by the numbers on the box.
Noise from fans are measured when the fan is standing free from other components.
Once installed in a case, the noise will be greater because of airflow hitting fan-grille , PC-components , etc. but of course will be somewhat shielded when the PC case is closed.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

claes said:


> I’d just order the disk and see how it sounds. You can always return it.
> 
> Personally, I’ll never have a HDD in my desktop again, but if you don’t mind your 5400rpm drive you may not mind a 18TB 7200rpm drive.
> 
> If the hum is the problem I’d consider replacing your bracket with a bungee system. It makes a world of difference, IMO. Then, I’m the kind of user who mostly runs my system with all of the fans off.


The thing about 18TB Ultrastar is that it's 10.6% cheaper per terabyte than 5400rpm
I need a software to monitor my hdd activity over hours of work. Task Manager only shows 4 minutes. it's 0% as far as I can see. 

Imagine you'd only hear few seconds of 36 decibel and then hours of 20db. What can be bad about that? and it reads faster too. Thank you Helium. I appreciate every atom of you

The Velociraptor that you sent back, idles at 30db. Ok that's like listening to my neighbor showering all day



Jacky_BEL said:


> I wouldn't compare HDD noise and fan noise by the numbers on the box.
> Noise from fans are measured when the fan is standing free from other components.
> Once installed in a case, the noise will be greater because of airflow hitting fan-grille , PC-components , etc. but of course will be somewhat shielded when the PC case is closed.


True, I like to compare decibels of products across Western Digital hard drives. 
I don't have an Ultrastar, but I suppose it is quieter than WD blue at idle. They're apples from the same tree.


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## newtekie1 (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> is 36 too loud? My PC is so quiet when the monitor is off there's no way to say pc is on or off.


If the monitor is off, the PC is idle, and the hard drive has likely parked its heads and spun down. So it they will be completely silent in that situation.


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## yotano211 (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> monitor goes off after 3~5 minutes. But hdd is not parked. When I press a key, monitor comes back, I don't hear any spinning up.
> 
> But now I can look at my radiator fans and say the PC is on. Before the rad fans were in place, I'd reach out for the power button only to discover my pc was already on. happened many times.


Why not just turn it off


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## Totally (Oct 10, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Who makes ultrastar? Never heard of that brand.



Really? Never heard of Hitachi? I know it's been a while since Hitachi exited the hdd business and and sold those assets to WD but at their peak they were the drive to get when it came to performance in the mid to late 2000s. Too bad for them SSDs happened where they were priced nearly the same as an average ssd but even the cheapest ssd blew them away.


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## 95Viper (Oct 10, 2021)

Stay on topic.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

Velociraptor's high idle acoustics can be explained by its higher spin.

Let's compare Ultrastar with WD blue
Ultra spins 33% faster
Helium density is 0.17 kg per cubic meter
Air density is 1.27 kg/m3

Ultrastar is 3db quieter at idle, that's 15%
Air is 7 times denser than Helium. Probably air inside WD Blue is dry and has little pressure.
Ok, I'm convinced 1800 extra revolutions per minute can possibly make less noise if you use Helium.





Air - Density, Specific Weight and Thermal Expansion Coefficient vs. Temperature and Pressure (engineeringtoolbox.com)

From above link, you can enter temperature and see air density lowers as temp goes up.
Even at 1600°C it is still denser than Helium


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## claes (Oct 10, 2021)

Keep in mind that dB isn’t measured linearly — they’re logarithmic. 3dB will still be perceived as twice the noise, which is great when the disk is idling, but not so much when it’s seeking.


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## Jacky_BEL (Oct 10, 2021)

And as OP stated : "I currently have a western digital blue which makes 27db while seek. it's 5400rpm."

While seek, meaning the actuator arm moving, this will be noisier than just the platters spinning by itself.


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## cvaldes (Oct 10, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Western Digital bought out Hitachi, which was originally IBM. So the Ultrastar is a line of HDD models owned by WD.



IBM's Ultrastar name was actually changed from Deskstar. Back in the Nineties, IBM HDDs frequently failed due to disk stiction issues and people started calling the drives 'Deathstars'.

Good times!



Anyhow going back to the OP, remember that decibels is a logarithmic scale. A 36 dB drive is about nine times louder than a 27 dB drive. One would definitely hear a difference between the two.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

And to see how Helium helps reducing the noise, we can see WD Black. It has same rpm as Ultrastar, but is not filled with Helium.
WD Black Datasheet

29~34 at idle and 36~38 seeking. So if Velociraptor is Arthur Morgan, then WD black is his horse in RDR terms. 

Let's have a look at gold, it spins like Ultrastar and has Helioseal. upto 10TB it idles very bad, but after 10TB it idles at sweet 20db. So WD gold becomes quieter at higher capacities! 
WD Gold datasheet

I think we can say that : don't be afraid of higher rpm if the disk is filled with Helium and you're coupled with ssd so you won't be seeking at all times.



Jacky_BEL said:


> And as OP stated : "I currently have a western digital blue which makes 27db while seek. it's 5400rpm."
> 
> While seek, meaning the actuator arm moving, this will be noisier than just the platters spinning by itself.



But the point is the sound you hear from WD blue is 23db whereas it is 20db from Ultrastar, until arms and heads get to work and make Ultrastar several times louder which is a fair tradeoff, because we're mostly idle. I think they wouldn't collect and trap helium into their disk only to make an already quiet disk quieter, so they increased the rpm


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 10, 2021)

Jacky_BEL said:


> I wouldn't compare HDD noise and fan noise by the numbers on the box.
> Noise from fans are measured when the fan is standing free from other components.


Noise levels are also measured at a specific distance away from the device - and typically, that distance is just few inches. And the "perceived" noise level (sound pressure level or SPL) decreases as that distance increases.

Yes, 36db is significantly louder than 27db. But 36db is still pretty quiet. 

Also a big factor is the case. A quality case will significantly suppress drive (and fan) noise. I note much of the noise from drives is really caused by vibration "reverberating" through the case. And you can help suppress that with special mounting devices like this screw kit. 

As far as I am concerned, @lexluthermiester touched on one of the most significant factors; room or "ambient" noise. It is almost impossible to be in a totally silent room. Just the other night the power went off in my neighborhood and it was the silence that woke me. No hum from the refrigerator in the kitchen or freezer in basement. No AC. No anything. 

I had the opportunity once to experience what it was like to be in a sonic anechoic chamber. This is a room specifically designed to absorb all sounds (no echoes or sounds bouncing off walls) as well as to isolate the room from any exterior sounds. The silence was deafening! I could hear my heartbeat. I could hear blood flowing in my arteries. In fact, after I was in it for about 5 minutes, it was a bit unnerving. I wanted out - now. 

That said, if noise is your top priority, in addition to a quality case, quality case fans, and quality CPU fan, maybe you should look into SSDs. If you really need 14TBs, maybe put them in a NAS located in a different room. 

And of course the absolute best suppressor of fan noise is Rock through Pandora via Pandorian! 



Jacky_BEL said:


> Once installed in a case, the noise will be greater because of airflow hitting fan-grille


Not in a quality case that is designed with noise suppression in mind - at least not unless the fan is running at full speed and that should rarely ever happen. I recommend Fractal Design cases - the R6 or R7 would be great choices. They only way I can tell if my case fans are running is to put my hand by the exhaust vent and then I can feel the warm air coming our.


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## Jacky_BEL (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> But the point is the sound you hear from WD blue is 23db whereas it is 20db from Ultrastar, until arms and heads get to work and make Ultrastar several times louder which is a fair tradeoff, because we're mostly idle. I think they wouldn't collect and trap helium into their disk only to make an already quiet disk quieter, so they increased the rpm



I believe helium is used in higher RPM drives to reduce the drag of the spinning platters.
This means less opposing force , and less power needed to spin the platters.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 10, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Western Digital bought out Hitachi, which was originally IBM. So the Ultrastar is a line of HDD models owned by WD.
> 
> 
> 36db is almost nothing. In a completely silent room, you might hear it over the fans of your system and GPU, but not by much. And honestly, if you don't let noise bother you, even 46db is fine.


Ok so UltraStar is the Top end of the Hitachi DeskStar, didnt know they Fleged out.

And I know Hitachi bought out IBM DeathStar...



Jacky_BEL said:


> I believe helium is used in higher RPM drives to reduce the drag of the spinning platters.
> This means less opposing force , and less power needed to spin the platters.


Probably for the platter elements to reduce corrosion by using Gas Encapsulation.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

Sound can not propagate in empty space. it travels faster in a denser medium. So if Helium is less dense than air, it should muffle the noise.
See this video, the guy inhales a balloon filled with Helium and his voice becomes what we need from a quiet pc:












Jacky_BEL said:


> I believe helium is used in higher RPM drives to reduce the drag of the spinning platters.
> This means less opposing force , and less power needed to spin the platters.


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 10, 2021)

Helium is used because it is less dense than air. Consequently, drag and turbulence is reduced. 

Because the platters are encased in a sealed compartment filled with the gas, oxygen cannot get in. And that is what prevents oxidation/corrosion.


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## Shrek (Oct 10, 2021)

Jacky_BEL said:


> I believe helium is used in higher RPM drives to reduce the drag of the spinning platters.
> This means less opposing force , and less power needed to spin the platters.



How does that work, as one can no longer have a filtered hole to equilibrate with the atmospheric pressure?


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 10, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Helium is used because it is less dense than air. Consequently, drag and turbulence is reduced.
> 
> Because the platters are encased in a sealed compartment filled with the gas, oxygen cannot get in. And that is what prevents oxidation/corrosion.



Yup telcos use nitrogen encapsulation in cable vaults for old paper insulated telephony cables.

(I think it is Helium for mig/tig welding)


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 10, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> How does that work, as one can no longer have a filtered hole to equilibrate with the atmospheric pressure?


I was wondering about that too. People used to assume drives were hermetically sealed, as in "air tight", but they weren't. They had that filtered hole, as you noted to account for changes in atmospheric pressure - for example, when notebooks were taken to high altitude on aircraft. 

I am assuming because helium is much less dense than air, even at very high altitudes, the internal pressures never get high enough to cause problems. 



eidairaman1 said:


> Yup telcos use nitrogen encapsulation in cable vaults for old paper insulated telephony cables.


I used to work with pressurized cables that housed the control and audio cables between the air traffic control tower and the remote receiver and transmitter sites. These were buried cables and the pressure kept moisture out. Nitrogen was used because (besides being cheap and abundant), its pressure does not fluctuate due to changes in ground temperatures. This is why a lot of tire shops use nitrogen in car tires. But for cables, it also ensures oxygen does not get in there too.


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## Shrek (Oct 10, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Nitrogen was used because (besides being cheap and abundant), its pressure does not fluctuate due to changes in ground temperatures. This is why a lot of tire shops use nitrogen in car tires.



I hate to disagree, but a perfect/ideal gas obeys

P V = n R T​
no matter if it is nitrogen or oxygen. Air is predominantly nitrogen anyhow.


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## Jacky_BEL (Oct 10, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> How does that work, as one can no longer have a filtered hole to equilibrate with the atmospheric pressure?


The HDD's are just totally sealed:

The Race to Seal Helium HDDs


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## repman244 (Oct 10, 2021)

The helium drives are sealed - there is no filtered hole like on other drives.

The helium reduces friction when the platters spin and with that in mind you can fit more platters in a HDD and not be limited by thermals.


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## Shrek (Oct 10, 2021)

Makes sense, but lets calculate forces (should the drive find itself in a vacuum)

14.7 lbs/in^2​
A 3 1/2 inch drive is about 4" x 5 1/2", so that would be 325 lbs; call it two people standing on the drive. Not so bad, very doable.


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 10, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I hate to disagree, but a perfect/ideal gas obeys


 You love to disagree. I say just Google it - then go argue with the tire shops, and with the military and airlines who have been using nitrogen in aircraft tires for decades.

And nobody is talking about "perfect".

And just because air is mostly nitrogen, that IN NO WAY means air behaves like nitrogen, or the other way around.

Now please don't run this thread OT - which has absolutely nothing to due with nitrogen.


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## Shrek (Oct 10, 2021)

You just blocked my ability to answer.


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## Lei (Oct 10, 2021)

Does anyone know a software that can monitor my hdd activity for hours? So far the best I could find only keeps a 5 minutes log. Want to know how much idle time I have.


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## Ferd (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> is 36 too loud?


What is considered loud for you can be accepted or just fine for someone else , no amount of theoretical explanation will give an answer, this is one of those things you have to test in real life


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## HTC (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> *Does anyone know a software that can monitor my hdd activity for hours?* So far the best I could find only keeps a 5 minutes log. Want to know how much idle time I have.



HDSentinel?

I stopped using it when i ditched Windows but i used it, up until then.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 10, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> I was wondering about that too. People used to assume drives were hermetically sealed, as in "air tight", but they weren't. They had that filtered hole, as you noted to account for changes in atmospheric pressure - for example, when notebooks were taken to high altitude on aircraft.
> 
> I am assuming because helium is much less dense than air, even at very high altitudes, the internal pressures never get high enough to cause problems.
> 
> ...


Yup aviation tires use nitrogen. I dont believe tire shops around here use nitrogen due to the expense of using nitrogen generation/converter equipment.



Ferd said:


> What is considered loud for you can be accepted or just fine for someone else , no amount of theoretical explanation will give an answer, this is one of those things you have to test in real life


Its why I gave a link.


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## Shrek (Oct 10, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Yup aviation tires use nitrogen. I dont believe tire shops around here use nitrogen due to the expense of using nitrogen generation/converter equipment.



Facts and Myths About Nitrogen Inflated Tires - Make Driving Fun with Performance Tires & Wheels | Tire Rack

"The only benefit from running pure nitrogen in tires is the increased air retention (slower loss of air out of the tires over time). A tire that is normally maintained with the proper air pressure will perform exactly like a tire with a pure nitrogen fill. If you can get a pure nitrogen fill for free, there is no harm in doing so but very little (if any) benefit from it."

I fill my tires with air knowing the oxygen will diffuse out faster and so what remains will self enrich in nitrogen, but that will take quite a long time.


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## 95Viper (Oct 10, 2021)

Get back on topic.
Stop the side topics.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> It doesn't bother.
> 
> Wait a minute. I realized that what I'm hearing all this time is 23db noise of my hard drive. The sound I'm hearing is from the idle mode. And Ultrastar idles even quieter.
> This might mean that with Ultrastar I may not hear the constant non-bothering huuuuum


In that case, buy with confidence and enjoy your new, very spacious drive!



cvaldes said:


> IBM's Ultrastar name was actually changed from Deskstar.


Actually, no. The Deskstar and Ultrastar were two completely different lines BITD. The Deskstar was IBMs IDE lineup and the Ultrastar was the SCSI 10kRPM lineup. I know this because I owned both. Very different. BITD, I had a SCSI320 RAID5 array with 4 18GB Ultrastars. They ran fast.

The modern Ultrastar range is the highend/high capacity drive from the Hitachi division of WD.


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## micropage7 (Oct 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> Hello,
> I currently have a western digital blue which makes 27db while seek. it's 5400rpm.
> Planning to upgrade, but all HDD above 14TB capacity are 7200rpm and Ultrastar makes 36db
> 
> ...


from the spec, yes it is louder but since you put them in the case it will cut some db and with those fans, current airflow, you won't too notice it


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## Lei (Oct 11, 2021)

I discovered one more thing.
Ultrastar and WD Red Pro are filled with helium in capacities of 12tb and above.

Notice 10tb idles at 34db and consumes 8 watts at idle, whereas the 12tb idles at 20db and consumes 5 watts (less hungry than 1TB which certainly has fewer platters)
Also 10tb weights 750 grams whereas 12tb is 660 grams (lighter than 4tb which is not helioseal) Helium is 7 times lighter than air


Pay attention to this from pdf : Five generations of Helioseal Technology *from 12tb and above*
so if you see any review complaining about Ultrastar noise, make sure to check which capacity they've got. (Amazon customers who complained all had =<10tb)
HC300 series not helium HC500 is helium

Same thing about WD Gold, from 10 to 12tb suddenly there's a 90gram weight loss and power friendly 

The name is misleading, I though since it is a star, there must be helium in all of them; there's helium in some Gold and Red
WD Red pro
Ultrastar
WD Gold


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## skizzo (Oct 11, 2021)

claes said:


> With all respect to the user above, I’d ignore their advice. Everyone perceives noise differently, and some are more sensitive to it than others. Personally, I’d kill myself if I had a velociraptor in my desktop. I ended up giving mine away back in the day because of the noise.
> 
> The general rule of thumb is that a 3dB increase is perceived as twice the noise. So yes, you will definitely notice the difference if your 5400rpm drive is bothering you now.
> 
> ...



it is every 6dB (SPL) that is doubled in amplitude and 10dB will double "perceived" volume which is what 99% of normal people would refer to in these situations where one would say "that sounds twice/half as loud". never once heard anyone who works with audio suggest a 3dB change is halving/doubling anything


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## Shrek (Oct 11, 2021)

3 dB = 10^0.3 = 1.99526


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## Lei (Oct 11, 2021)

Georgia State University:
Rule of thumb for Loudness

Ultrastar is twice as loud from a 5400rpm during seek and the difference while idle is meh






Andy Shiekh said:


> 3 dB = 10^0.3 = 1.99526


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## skizzo (Oct 11, 2021)

as a test (proof) go to a mixing desk, or any DAW, pull down/push up a fader by 3dB and that will show why it is wrong to think a 3dB change makes amplitude/perceived loudness change by half/double.

I understand where that math come from, but in reality that is not what the human ear hears. I will not pretend I know wtf sound "power" is but I do understand it doesn't equate to the same as perceived loudness. But I'll concede, yes, 3dB apparently does change something, "power" by half/double....but what that means to the end user....I really don't know. I say that because no one says "can you turn that crap down by half of the sound power please! 3dB should do it!"


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## Valantar (Oct 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> I discovered one more thing.
> Ultrastar and WD Red Pro are filled with helium in capacities of 12tb and above.
> 
> Notice 10tb idles at 34db and consumes 8 watts at idle, whereas the 12tb idles at 20db and consumes 5 watts (less hungry than 1TB which certainly has fewer platters)
> ...


There is no way of there being 90g of air inside of the 10TB version, so the 12TB version likely has fewer, higher density platters.

As for the noise question: everyone has different thresholds for annoyance. I've long since ditched mechanical drives in my pc, and put them in a NAS instead. This means my hallway has a bit more background noise than before, but it's not like that's somewhere I spend significant time. All the while my pc is inaudible under anything but full load. Your preferences are likely different. The main question: is humming/buzzing more or less annoying to you than clicking/sudden noises? Are they equal? If the former, I would get a NAS, but in lieu of that, focus on idle noise. If the latter, I would think about how often the HDD is used and go from there.


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## Lei (Oct 11, 2021)

Air density 1.27 kg/m3

HDD dimensions: 14x10x2.6 = 0.00038602 cubic meter
if hard drive was entirely made of air, it would weight 0.4902454 grams
if it was all helium it would be 0.0656234 grams
double check : yep they're 7 times apart 0.06x7=0.42

difference between weight of air and helium in that volume : 0.424622

Ok, helium makes it half a gram lighter, so other components must be also different.
Anyway, from 12tb and up, a lot of things including acoustics change. We tend to think higher capacities are louder because they have more platters and arms; but it's not true once Helioseal enters the realm.


Valantar said:


> There is no way of there being 90g of air inside of the 10TB version, so the 12TB version likely has fewer, higher density platters.
> 
> As for the noise question: everyone has different thresholds for annoyance. I've long since ditched mechanical drives in my pc, and put them in a NAS instead. This means my hallway has a bit more background noise than before, but it's not like that's somewhere I spend significant time. All the while my pc is inaudible under anything but full load. Your preferences are likely different. The main question: is humming/buzzing more or less annoying to you than clicking/sudden noises? Are they equal? If the former, I would get a NAS, but in lieu of that, focus on idle noise. If the latter, I would think about how often the HDD is used and go from there.



So this statement is disregarding Helium capability:


claes said:


> Unfortunately, once you get past 8TB there aren’t many “quiet” options on the market. If you can, I’d recommend picking up or building a NAS so that you can keep the noise away from you (that’s what I did ), or get two lower capacity drives to offset the increase in noise.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> double check : yep they're 7 orders of magnitude apart 0.06x7=0.42



7 times apart; 7 orders of magnitude is 10,000,000


----------



## Valantar (Oct 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> Air density 1.27 kg/m3
> 
> HDD dimensions: 14x10x26 = 0.00038602 cubic meter
> if hard drive was entirely made of air, it would weight 0.4902454 grams
> ...


AFAIK (don't ask me about details, I don't know them) heluim drives use different platters and heads than conventional drives. There are plenty of possible reasons why: less drag on platters means less need for rotating mass to counteract drag-induced vibration; less drag means head designs can be different; less turbulence allows for different aerodynamics, tighter tolerances, etc. Lighter platters could also help explain the reduced power draw (alongside the lowered drag). And so on, and so on.

Either way, if you need significant storege space, I would very much recommend a NAS. Either DIY with TrueNAS or something similar (my choice, works amazingly well, low cost from spare/hand-me-down PC parts), or off the shelf. Place it out of the way and you don't have to worry about noise, and even cheap 2.5GbE is fast enough for HDD speeds. I use shucked external HDDs in my NAS, and some of them are very clicky and loud, but that doesn't matter when the NAS lives in a hallway cupboard.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 11, 2021)

Which leads to an interesting question (for me at least)

The heads surf on a different medium (Helium) so I wonder what would happen if air did indeed leak in.


----------



## Lei (Oct 11, 2021)

It becomes unusable. there's no filter hole and the lid is laser welded Opening Helium hard drive
There's no "do not cover this hole"

This blog from WD says that if they just empty the drive, the head will crash into the disk. And Hydrogen is flammable
Rise of Helium

It would be great if we could have an empty drive without crashing the head into the disk, don't mind density but sound would not be able to propagate. We'd never hear the head or any moving parts. Just tiny vibrations of hdd body.  Please make it, at least it won't catch fire.


Andy Shiekh said:


> Which leads to an interesting question (for me at least)
> 
> The heads surf on a different medium (Helium) so I wonder what would happen if air did indeed leak in.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 11, 2021)

Didn't realize it was welded; many thanks for the clarification.

However the video








shows screws, so there is still a possibility of leakage.


----------



## claes (Oct 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> So this statement is disregarding Helium capability:


With respect, having purchased dozens of helium drives to build NAS systems for others, it’s not. I am sure there are differences that affect noise, but the bigger you go the louder they get… Your own research verifies as much 

Sure, a 12TB helium drive is quieter than a traditional 12TB drive, but they’re both still louder than 8TB drives at the same rpm, and 16TB are louder still, which was my caveat — I think your setup would be quieter with two 8TB drives rather than a single 16TB drive. Maybe the spec sheets will prove me wrong, but that’s just my experience. :shrug:


----------



## Valantar (Oct 11, 2021)

claes said:


> With respect, having purchased dozens of helium drives to build NAS systems for others, it’s not. I am sure there are differences that affect noise, but the bigger you go the louder they get… Your own research verifies as much
> 
> Sure, a 12TB helium drive is quieter than a traditional 12TB drive, but they’re both still louder than 8TB drives at the same rpm, and 16TB are louder still, which was my caveat — I think your setup would be quieter with two 8TB drives rather than a single 16TB drive. Maybe the spec sheets will prove me wrong, but that’s just my experience. :shrug:


Spec sheets are hardly exhaustive though. dBA measurements might be comparable, but are the conditions of measurement the same? Distance, direction, type and sensitivity of the measurement device, etc. - are those standardized between manufacturers? If not, the numbers are only internally comparable. Then there's the question of frequency and how human hearing sensitivity isn't linear across the audible frequency spectrum - and some frequencies are just more annoying than others, regardless of volume. I've long since stopped putting any trust in dBA measurements for this reason - without strict standardization, the numbers are meaningless at best, misleading at worst.


----------



## repman244 (Oct 11, 2021)

The helium drives started with 8TB I think (Hitachi He8), but I'm not sure if they still make them.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> Helium is 7 times lighter than air


While true, this is NOT a factor in the weight of drives. There just is not enough "empty space" (for lack of a better term) inside a drive that is filled with gas (air or helium) to affect the weight of a drive. 



Lei said:


> HDD dimensions: 14x10x2.6 = 0.00038602 cubic meter
> if hard drive was entirely made of air, it would weight 0.4902454 grams
> if it was all helium it would be 0.0656234 grams
> double check : yep they're 7 times apart 0.06x7=0.42
> ...


None of this makes any sense. The volume of the entire drive (external dimensions) is not a factor in this discussion. And the "empty space" inside a hard drive is so insignificant, discussing weights at all makes no sense. 

 As seen by this weight per volume calculator, 

1 inch³ air = 21.19 milligram (mg)​1 inch³ helium = 2.93 mg (confirming the x 7 difference)​
1/2 gram = 500mg. 

The weight of the drive indicated by the OP in post #44 above is .66kg. That's 660 grams. It takes almost 4 meter³ of helium to make up that much weight. 500mg of helium would take up over 3 meter³.  If anyone has ever worked with concrete, they would know 3 "yards" of concrete would make a lot of sidewalk! 

I doubt there is even 1 inch³ of empty space inside a drive - certainly not enough empty space inside a drive (let alone exterior volume) so that it is 1/2 gram (500 milligrams) lighter just because it is helium vs air. 

I just heard [barely!] a car rolling down the street. That was only because the TV in the other room is turned off. I still cannot hear the 2 computers in this room with their 4 case fans, 2 CPU fans, 2 PSU fans, and 2 GPU fans running. Okay, these computers both have SSDs, but I think my point is sound (pun intended).


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 11, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Either way, if you need significant storege space, I would very much recommend a NAS.


Some people want a big drive to put in their PC, not a big box of drives they have to find a place for, set up and configure. There are many things to be said about the ease of "plug & play".


----------



## Lei (Oct 12, 2021)

repman244 said:


> The helium drives started with 8TB I think (Hitachi He8), but I'm not sure if they still make them.


----------



## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Personally I'd say that any HDD is too noisy. But decibels are also marketing and can you really trust what the manufacturer says?

Probably a louder drive would still be tolerable as we don't have those hella noisy drives like in the 80s and 90s had.


----------



## Valantar (Oct 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Some people want a big drive to put in their PC, not a big box of drives they have to find a place for, set up and configure. There are many things to be said about the ease of "plug & play".


I would say a key point of a NAS is that that "box of drives" isn't big at all. Most off-the-shelf units are tiny, with a decent diy solution only being marginally larger. Off-the-shelf units are also very easy to configure. I can understand not wanting the extra hardware and config, but IMO the benefits far outweigh the hassle. Hence my recommendation. And as the OP is clearly somewhat worried about noise, it seems like a no-brainer to me.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I would say a key point of a NAS is that that "box of drives" isn't big at all.


It's still more complicated and expensive than most people care to deal with. A large drive is easy to install buy, easy to install, easy to use and fits into an existing PC. NAS is not a great option for most users.


----------



## Valantar (Oct 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's still more complicated and expensive than most people care to deal with. A large drive is easy to install buy, easy to install, easy to use and fits into an existing PC. NAS is not a great option for most users.


But a 16TB drive isn't a great option for most users either - ridiculously expensive, stores so much data that any loss would be catastrophic, etc. So the OP here is clearly not "most users". That is not the premise for this discussion. As storage needs increase, so do data management needs - and often also data access needs/wants. Keeping your main PC (which is typically quite powerful and likely not very efficient) turned on 24/7 for data access from other devices is pretty stupid compared to something made for that purpose. Sure, there are cases where the data is only ever accessed from one device by one user and they still need that much space, but I'd say that's reasonably rare compared to more varied use cases. To each their own, but IMO, once you get to a point where a >10TB drive makes sense to you, keeping that drive in your main PC is likely to also have significant downsides, and you're likely to see some value in the additional features a NAS can bring to the table.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> But a 16TB drive isn't a great option for most users either - ridiculously expensive


Um..








						Toshiba 16TB Enterprise HDD SATA 6.0Gb/s 512e 7200 RPM 512MB Cache 3.5" Internal Hard Drive MG08ACA16TE - Newegg.com
					

Buy Toshiba 16TB Enterprise HDD SATA 6.0Gb/s 512e 7200 RPM 512MB Cache 3.5" Internal Hard Drive MG08ACA16TE with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				



You were saying?


Valantar said:


> stores so much data that any loss would be catastrophic, etc.


You are arguing a "what-if" again as if drives fail that often. Drive failures are rare in performance consumer drives and for enterprise drives even more rare when in consumer use. Not a good argument.


Valantar said:


> That is not the premise for this discussion.


You're right, it's not. The topic of discussion is the sound levels of the drives the OP is interested in as they have already decided to get one large drive. So can we have done with the off-topic jibber-jabber?

On that note.

@Lei
The above linked Toshiba drive has a spec of 20db which would meet your desire to have a quiet drive with large capacity & good performance.


			https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/content/dam/toshiba-ss-v2/master/en/storage/product/data-center-enterprise/ehdd-mg08_product-overview_rev.3.pdf
		



			https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/content/dam/toshiba-ss-v2/master/en/storage/product/data-center-enterprise/ehdd_mg08_product-manual_rev.3.pdf
		


This drive seems like a great option for what you want.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 12, 2021)

We all know Helium changes the pitch of peoples voices; is the same true for noise made in the drive? The human ear is more sensitive to higher pitch.

Do most drives still have the AAM (Automatic Acoustic Management) setting so they can be quietened?


----------



## Valantar (Oct 12, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> We all know Helium changes the pitch of peoples voices; is the same true for noise made in the drive? The human ear is more sensitive to higher pitch.
> 
> Do most drives still have the AAM (Automatic Acoustic Management) setting so they can be quietened?


If so, I doubt it's noticeable as all the noise will be passing through an intermediary material (the metal casing of the drive), and might not even pass meaningfully through helium at all given the tiny amount + noise source (motor) being directly coupled to the metal casing. In the case of your voice, your vocal cords cause vibrations to propagate within and through the helium, which again pass into other surrounding gases as the noise leaves your mouth. That's very different from how HDD noise is created and propagates.


lexluthermiester said:


> Um..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's cheap /GB, but ... it's a $320 HDD. That's a lot of money unless you're pretty well off. Any storage device above $200 starts to hurt in my world.


lexluthermiester said:


> You are arguing a "what-if" again as if drives fail that often. Drive failures are rare in performance consumer drives and for enterprise drives even more rare when in consumer use. Not a good argument.


No, I'm mentioning that as one of many potential benefits of NAS use, and a generally useful rule of thumb that the higher the amount of data you're storing, the more you'll lose _if_ it fails, and thus the more care you should take to prevent this. That obviously isn't a universally applicable statement - even 100MB of priceless photos of a deceased loved one can be a tragic loss, after all - but the more data, the higher the chance that it's valuable to you overall (and even if it's replaceable, the more hassle doing so will be).


lexluthermiester said:


> You're right, it's not. The topic of discussion is the sound levels of the drives the OP is interested in as they have already decided to get one large drive. So can we have done with the off-topic jibber-jabber?
> 
> On that note.
> 
> ...


Well, the argument that "a drive in a NAS in a cupboard/other room won't bother you no matter its noise level" still addresses this concern, which is why it was brought up in the first place. Yet another benefit of NAS use. Presenting the OP with insight on alternative solutions that might address their concerns is generally a good thing, no?

Also, you're making the same previously pointed out mistake of assuming that dBA measurements are comparable - we know neither the equipment, measurement distance, or frequency spectrum of the noise, which makes it at best useful as a ballpark estimate. How it sounds when mounted in a case (with interactions between vibration and resonant frequencies etc.) further complicates this.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> In the case of your voice, your vocal cords cause vibrations to propagate within and through the helium, which again pass into other surrounding gases as the noise leaves your mouth. That's very different from how HDD noise is created and propagates.



I was picturing the arms vibrating and a thud becoming a dink; but the picture may be all wrong.


----------



## Valantar (Oct 12, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I was picturing the arms vibrating and a thud becoming a dink; but the picture may be all wrong.


I would assume that noise propagates something like arms -> actuator assembly -> casing -> air, so I doubt the helium would affect that meaningfully - though I guess the lower density of the gas might cause the 'dink' to be slightly different in terms of frequency. I'd assume the metal and construction of the arm to have a greater determining effect on that, but I might be wrong. I don't think I've ever heard a "thud" from a HDD


----------



## Shrek (Oct 12, 2021)

I am also at a bit of a loss as to the mechanism; but I recall drives that thud, but it may have been an old SCSI drive.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's still more complicated and expensive than most people care to deal with.


Maybe, maybe not. 

A NAS can be 1 drive in an enclosure that connects via Ethernet. Or it can be many drives in an enclosure configured in all sorts of different RAID arrays. Or can simply be a spare PC on your network with shared drives.


----------



## claes (Oct 12, 2021)

I don’t know why so many people are trying to convince @Lei that they aren’t hearing the things they’re hearing, so much so that they started a thread about that noise driving (harr, harr) their purchasing decisions, but hey, keep on fighting the good fight, maybe you’ll convince them that they’re delusional.

That said, @Lei is either over evaluating this decision (much respect, genuinely), or trolling us (I hope not!). Lei — you will not find answers in PRs, data sheets (20dB at idle for that Toshoba drive, but no seek measurements? Lol), or trying to become a sound scientist (believe me, I’ve tried ). I’d just buy the drive and see how you feel about it. Run some checks on it, and see how it sounds — you can always return it if you don’t like the noise or it doesn’t pass your preferred checks.

Noise is subjective, not objective — as you’ve noticed, most users on this forum don’t actually care about noise at all as long as it works, and will even denigrate you for having more sensitive hearing than they do (lot of olds on this forum), and isn’t it odd that a much more mechanically complicated drive is quoted at idle to be quieter than a less complicated drive, but louder when in use? Density matters, and not just that of the gas surrounding it. More platters = more noise.

The “power” of noise (dB) doesn’t account for dozens of other perceptions, which are all subjective and incalculable. You won’t know until you try and, even then, others experiences won’t align with yours. I’d say go for a swim and see how the water feels!


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 12, 2021)

I don't think you, claes, have assessed the replies properly. Nobody suggested the noise is not there. Only that the differences mentioned are not likely to be that significant, if significant at all. 



claes said:


> Noise is subjective, not objective


Not true at all. Noise is subjective and objective. Yes, it is a matter of opinion as to how annoying noise it. But noise can be measured (and calculable)with test equipment too. So therefore, subjective and objective. 



claes said:


> most users on this forum don’t actually care about noise at all as long as it works,


I don't know about most. I for one, hate fan noise, for example. I really hate it. I am not a fan (no pun intended) of drive motor noise either - another reason to go SSD.


----------



## Xeon (Oct 12, 2021)

I have 4 of those helium filled hgst hdd's on one of my systems, and they are as loud as any other 7K drives. I measure around 38 DB's with my phone next to them...for what is worth.


----------



## Lei (Oct 13, 2021)

What they measure at idle? Are they louder than 5400 at idle?


Xeon said:


> I have 4 of those helium filled hgst hdd's on one of my systems, and they are as loud as any other 7K drives. I measure around 38 DB's with my phone next to them...for what is worth.


----------



## claes (Oct 13, 2021)

Yes. Seek noise is louder and higher pitched than the hum you normally get from HDDs. It also passes a lot more vibration to the chassis, depending on the mounting.

Also, Toshiba is not WD/Hitachi — they surely have different ways of measuring noise. I’d like to believe that WD and Hitachi use the same standards for measurement, since they’re both WD companies, but I’m not confident that they do.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Oct 13, 2021)

@Lei are you going to pick a drive or what?

If noise is a big concern you might just go SSD.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 13, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> If noise is a big concern you might just go SSD.


Not for a 16TB drive.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 13, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not for a 16TB drive.


Why not? Or if this "tiny"  15TB SSD won't do, and if money is no object, why not go for 30TB SSD?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Oct 13, 2021)

4 pages and nothing acomplished...


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 13, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Why not? Or if this "tiny"  15TB SSD won't do, and if money is no object, why not go for 30TB SSD?


Maybe stating the obvious, but money usually is an object.



eidairaman1 said:


> 4 pages and nothing acomplished...


Speak for yourself maybe?


----------



## freeagent (Oct 13, 2021)

So.. if you guys have used some old Raptor ADFD’s in raid you guys are pretty much saying these big drives are just as loud? Ugh. Gross. I don’t know how loud they were but the were not quiet. Also for an enterprise drive like they were supposed to be I had 4 out of 4 die, but only one had the window.


----------



## Xeon (Oct 13, 2021)

Raptors are 10K rpm drives and are alot louder.

I still have around some old  seagate cheetah15k rpm drives now that's loud


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Maybe stating the obvious, but money usually is an object.


Exactly. There is a HUGE difference between $350 for 16TB and $3000 for 15TB. One of them the OP has already made to commitment to afford, but not the other.


R-T-B said:


> Speak for yourself maybe?


What I don't understand is the saltiness...



freeagent said:


> So.. if you guys have used some old Raptor ADFD’s in raid you guys are pretty much saying these big drives are just as loud?


No one can say that with any degree of seriousness and expect to be taken seriously.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Oct 14, 2021)

Xeon said:


> Raptors are 10K rpm drives and are alot louder.
> 
> I still have around some old  seagate cheetah15k rpm drives now that's loud


Odd, mine isnt loud.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> I don't think you, claes, have assessed the replies properly. Nobody suggested the noise is not there. Only that the differences mentioned are not likely to be that significant, if significant at all.
> 
> 
> Not true at all. Noise is subjective and objective. Yes, it is a matter of opinion as to how annoying noise it. But noise can be measured (and calculable)with test equipment too. So therefore, subjective and objective.
> ...


Nah. With respect, you’re part of the problem. If you can’t hear a car passing on your block, or two systems running in the room you’re in, what does that say about your ambient noise level and your hearing sensitivity?

Your feelings about fan and motor noise belie the truth — some people are more sensitive to some frequencies than others. I’m not saying your hearing is “bad” or whatever, I’m saying it’s different from other’s hearing.

OP has a < 30dB system, and there are users telling them they won’t notice a 36dB drive when they already notice a < 30dB drive. The very first response said they were full of shit for noticing at all, presumably because of a common 30dB noise floor in most homes. If you can’t appreciate that, then you are simply ignoring OP’s hearing.

Say what you will, but many users on this forum don’t care about noise at all, which is generally why I avoid these discussions (and fan noise discussions as well). Hell, a lot of users on this forum don’t notice Nidec GT motor noise, which is infamous on forums where users care. The same users will pretend that Arctic fans don’t have bearing noise, despite it being thoroughly documented.

If you don’t notice noise, like the two users above this post, that’s great, bully for you. But if you do, like OP has clearly stated, then that’s something any reasonable response will consider.

(In fairness to Lex, raptors are definitely louder than most modern high-capacity enterprise drives, especially two of them, IME)









						WD VelociRaptor 1TB and Scorpio Blue 500GB - Silent PC Review
					

WD’s VelociRaptor 1TB might be the fastest hard drive in the world, but it could also be the loudest. The new Scorpio Blue 500GB is a different kind of drive, a single-platter notebook model with ultra-low acoustics. June 10, 2012 by Lawrence Lee Product WD VelociRaptor WD1000DHTZ 1TB 2.5″/3.5″...




					silentpcreview.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> Odd, mine isnt loud.


Your Raptor? The newest models were actually fairly quiet. The models from 150GB on up used a new type of motor/bearing combination that was much quieter. 

In fairness they are still a bit more noisy than any of these new high capacity 7200rpm drives.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

No, their raptor is is one of the loudest drives ever produced for consumer use. That they don’t hear something twice as noisy at most good fans should tell you all you need to know about their opinion. I know you’ve blocked me because I am a beautiful “snowflake,” but see above test results produced in an anechoic chamber by some of the most deliberate tech reviewers to ever be in the game.

I really hate know-it-all’s who can’t warrant an argument. “Yep, I say so, cause I am authority,” etc. Please warrant your arguments and explain with reason; thanks!


----------



## cst1992 (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> 3dB increase is perceived as twice the noise


Nope. 3dB is *technically* twice the noise; but in reality a 10dB increase is perceived as twice the noise. So 30dB is pretty quiet; 40dB is audible; and 50dB is so loud you'd want to put your fingers in your ears.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

5-10dB, depending on the subject/person and their sensitivity, but I “hear” you. The research used to come to these conclusions should tell you all you need to know about noise being subjective, nevermind that that research doesn’t bother to account for frequency and pitch changes, admitting that dBs can’t account for how that noise is perceived — the best they can do is attempt to produce consistent frequencies, which HDDs are currently incapable of due to all of the moving parts and seek noise (unlike, say, a perfectly calibrated fan, where the only noise is motor noise, which, AFAIK, also doesn’t exist)

Edit: dunno why y’all are trying to one-up me here — at best you’re saying that OP’s HDD choice is 160% louder than their current drive, which they find intrusive. Are you saying that they won’t find a 160% increase in a noise they already find intrusive as more intrusive?

edit 2: my bad, 27dB to 36dB, so 133% on a logarithmic scale, and a 9dB difference, which is ost shy of twice as loud, in your terms. Whoops.









						Archive: A Primer on Noise in Computing
					

October 28, 2003 by Mike Chin A primer on noise and sound was one of the many items on my want list for core articles when Silent PC Review was first launched. There is so much misinformation on the topic that I felt it mandatory to provide some kind of baseline, an introduction to




					silentpcreview.com


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> No, their raptor is is one of the loudest drives ever produced for consumer use.


That is patently wrong. Seagate, IBM, Fujitsu, Quantum, Conner and Maxtor all made consumer 10krpm drives that were MUCH louder than anything that came in the Raptor range of drives. Comparatively, the Raptor as a whole was very quiet. And yes, I have owned or used examples of all those drives. I was a SCSI user BITD. 10krpm drives sounded like jet engines spooling up. So no, Raptors are NOT among the loudest consumer drives ever made. Even in that particular time frame there were 7200rpm drives louder than the Raptors.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

I’ve used them, too, by the dozens, in server racks and as single drives. The vast majority were a) not consumer drives marketed at gamers, like the raptors, and b) rated at less than 36dB, like the raptors. I’ve used 15,000rpm drives, too, and they were often not as bad, either. Please point to spec sheets, at least, knowing they’re unverifiable, to warrant your claim, and respond to my arguments about frequency changes, which dBs don’t account for.

aye, talking to a brick wall over here, eh? Imagine a raptor pressed against one of those! Like the name wasn’t ironic lol


----------



## puma99dk| (Oct 14, 2021)

I haven't had a good record for Toshiba where I work their normal nas and consumer drives in a server that's on 24-7 doesn't hold up as long as WD RED, Purple and so on.

If anyone want a bit of noise test too check out Nada over at TechTesters she tested Toshiba, WD and Seagate like a year ago.


----------



## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Dampened, suspended, 35dB = inaudible. I miss SPCR. Wish VSG (no @ because this is a waste of time) had time for HDDs 

Thanks, though. Would love to know procedures.


----------



## Lei (Oct 14, 2021)

She says her 5400 WD red is making 35.4db at idle. measurements aside, but her access is 36.6
Also her 7200rpm drives are 1 or 2 decibels louder. That's not a very successful measurement


But here, she shows that a 7K helium-filled drive is quieter than a 5K air-filled drive. only louder during seek. That agrees with spec
WD Red Pro is helium filled from 12tb and above
Interesting is that non-Pro is quieter during seek, and still is 7K - specs agree with video (29 vs 36)
WD Red
WD Red Pro
I guess WD Red is my holy grail. however there are 2 caveats: it max at 14tb and costs 22% more than Ultrastar 18tb (prices were I live, but based on WD website prices, WD red is unquestionably the holy grail if you don't mind 4 less tb)





Listen to her at 7:38 , who says she's trolling?
Ironwolf is louder at idle and quieter at seek, according to spec. Different company, so we can't really compare. Her video shows that wolf wins Red-pro in seek, however wolf max at 16tb and wolf pro is 2db louder than wolf in specs of same company.
Ironwolf Pro
Ironwolf


puma99dk| said:


> I haven't had a good record for Toshiba where I work their normal nas and consumer drives in a server that's on 24-7 doesn't hold up as long as WD RED, Purple and so on.
> 
> If anyone want a bit of noise test too check out Nada over at TechTesters she tested Toshiba, WD and Seagate like a year ago.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Buddy — you don’t know her noise floor, or the quality of her instruments. For all we know, her sound floor/ambient noise is 33dB, which would mean she is unable to measure any volume (in dB, which doesn’t account for all “noise”) below that.

This is why you can’t trust spec sheets. What is their noise-floor? How sensitive is their microphone? At what distance are they measuring?


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## Valantar (Oct 14, 2021)

Yeah, sadly without knowledge of the test setup and equipment those numbers are only internally comparable, and neither comparable to spec sheets nor other measurements. Given that sound pressure drops by 6dB per doubling of distance, and sound can be hightly directional, the setup is very important. Still interesting data though!


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## Lei (Oct 14, 2021)

Well, you're right.
Don't you think specs of same company can make some sense. specially when they're on the same page of the same pdf in the same product series?

Or WD says our 5k blue idles at 23 and our 7k Ultrastar 18tb idles at 20 (basically all helium from WD idle at 20). Could it be the other way around in test? Still waiting for @Xeon  to answer 


claes said:


> Buddy — you don’t know her noise floor, or the quality of her instruments. For all we know, her sound floor/ambient noise is 33dB, which would mean she is unable to measure any volume (in dB, which doesn’t account for all “noise”) below that.
> 
> This is why you can’t trust spec sheets. What is their noise-floor? How sensitive is their microphone? At what distance are they measuring?


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

The problem is we don’t know WD’a noise-floor but, IME (emphasis on In My Experience), helium drives are pretty quiet at idle. If idle noise is your concern more than seek noise than you’ll probably be fine. If you’re worried, suspend that disk!

Double post: sub 30dB situations are uncommon, and sub 20dB even less so. Even in anechoic chambers, you’re still not reaching 0. What you are hearing, in the case of PC components that are that quieter than the nois-floor, are vibrations due to moving components being mounted in a chassis and their vibrations reverberating throughout the chassis, or resonance, which is impossible to account for unless you test the specified moving part in every chassis available on the market.


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## Valantar (Oct 14, 2021)

Lei said:


> Well, you're right.
> Don't you think specs of same company can make some sense. specially when they're on the same page of the same pdf in the same product series?
> 
> Or WD says our 5k blue idles at 23 and our 7k Ultrastar 18tb idles at 20 (basically all helium from WD idle at 20). Could it be the other way around in test? Still waiting for @Xeon  to answer


It's entirely possible that their consumer and enterprise departments have different standards or methods for noise testing. Unless they publish their methodologies, there is no way of knowing. I would expect any serious company to test in at least a semi-anechoic chamber, which tends to mean a ~15dB noise floor. I would also expect them to test the drives either mounted in a foam block or suspended somehow - i.e. a best case scenario. But there are many ways in which testing can differ from (other testing that gets put into) spec sheets:
- directionality: Especially high frequency noise like motor noise will be highly directional and will thus differ greatly depending on the orientation of the drive and the relative orientation of the measurement device
- resonance: even assuming a well dampened room, sound will resonate. A drive sitting on a table will sound different from one sitting on a cardboard box, which will again sound different from one hard mounted in a case, which will sound different from one mounted in a case with dampening. And the case material, thickness and construction matters a lot too.
- sound pressure is (largely) additive, meaning the more noise you have, the more noise you'll measure. The specifics of the interplay between sound waves in a material are _way_ beyond my understanding, but on a pre-school level it's as simple as sound being energy; more sound = more energy. So, adding a 26dBA sound source (at a given distance etc.) to a 26dBA room will (roughly) result in a 3dBA noise increase, as you're doubling the sound energy present - assuming the frequency spectrums are matched. But the log scale of dB/dBA confuses this - so adding a 26dBA sound source to a 30dBA room will only result in a less than 1.5dBA increase in overall sound pressure. But this also means that your noise floor _will_ impact your readings. Even the quietest fan or HDD _will_ be measurable in a normal "quiet" ~30-36dBA room, as long as you're close enough - it still transfers energy to the air, after all! - but the readings will also be higher than if the room was quieter.

And so on and so on. Meaningful, useful and comparable sound measurements are _hard_.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> I’ve used 15,000rpm drives, too, and they were often not as bad, either.


Wait, you're claiming 15k drives are MORE noisy that Raptors?  There's an old saying that rings true here, and you're full of it.



Lei said:


> Or WD says our 5k blue idles at 23 and our 7k Ultrastar 18tb idles at 20 (basically all helium from WD idle at 20). Could it be the other way around in test? Still waiting for @Xeon to answer


The sum total of this thread is simple: Almost all of the modern high capacity drives being considered are reasonably quiet and will meet your needs. Pick the one you like, buy it, enjoy.

As the trolls seem to be setting in, I'm out.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wait, you're claiming 15k drives are MORE noisy that Raptors?  There's an old saying that rings true here, and you're full of it.


No, that’s the opposite of what I said. _You_ were the one claiming 10,000rpm+ drives were _quieter_ than Raptors…


lexluthermiester said:


> That is patently wrong. Seagate, IBM, Fujitsu, Quantum, Conner and Maxtor all made consumer 10krpm drives that were MUCH louder than anything that came in the Raptor range of drives. Comparatively, the Raptor as a whole was very quiet.


Please read twice before jumping to insults.


lexluthermiester said:


> The sum total of this thread is simple: Almost all of the high capacity drives are reasonably quiet and will meet your needs. Pick the one you like, buy it, enjoy.
> 
> 
> As the trolls seem to be setting in, I'm out.


Reasonably quiet enough to be louder than the OP’s preferred maximum dB rating, according to manufacturer specs.

I’m drunk and answering between Covid ads with a friend — what’s your excuse for trolling at this hour?!


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## Flanker (Oct 14, 2021)

@Lei OP, I don't know what the return policy is around where you live, but I think the best thing to do is buy from the list of drives you are considering, listen to them when running some HDD benchmark programme and decide which ones to keep and return the rest. It's just too subjective to discuss noise levels.
I was VERY picky with noise back when I lived in a quiet neighbourhood in New Zealand, but I can easily deal with 40db rated fans these days after moving to some busy city with population of 20M+


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## Lei (Oct 14, 2021)

Return Policy doesn't work that way.
You can return if it was damaged during transport or didn't match what was advertised, but not if you don't like what you asked for.
Specially because hard disk is sealed and once tested, it internally keeps track of power-on count and...

If returning was that simple, I'd open an unboxing YouTube channel! testing Playstation, threadripper, rayban, holographic kiosks etc hmm an Oculus, HoloLens , may be a 30TB ssd too an Steinway grand piano, a 32" Wacom cintiq 


Flanker said:


> @Lei OP, I don't know what the return policy is around where you live, but I think the best thing to do is buy from the list of drives you are considering, listen to them when running some HDD benchmark programme and decide which ones to keep and return the rest. It's just too subjective to discuss noise levels.
> I was VERY picky with noise back when I lived in a quiet neighbourhood in New Zealand, but I can easily deal with 40db rated fans these days after moving to some busy city with population of 20M+


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## Valantar (Oct 14, 2021)

@claes @lexluthermiester Could you two tone it down like five to seven notches? Disagreements are fine, but this is _really_ unnecessary. Chill out. Getting into the weeds of 10-15k drives is entirely off-topic and irrelevant to the OP's questions.


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## claes (Oct 14, 2021)

Lei said:


> Return Policy doesn't work that way.
> You can return if it was damaged during transport or didn't match what was advertised, but not if you don't like what you asked for.
> Specially because hard disk is sealed and once tested, it internally keeps track of power-on count and...
> 
> If returning was that simple, I'd open an unboxing YouTube channel! testing Playstation, threadripper, rayban, holographic kiosks etc hmm an Oculus, HoloLens , may be a 30TB ssd too an Steinway grand piano


Where are you from? it shouldn’t work that way if you’re purchasing through a licensed retailer, who a) should have their own return policy that supercede’s the manufacture and. B& primarily based on date of purchase. I’ve written zeros to dozens of disks to check their integrity, retuning those that failed, with no question.But maybe I’m wrong.

killed analysis about disks as s mrlddiun, but night not explain a circumstance.


Valantar said:


> @claes @lexluthermiester Could you two tone it down like five to seven notches? Disagreements are fine, but this is _really_ unnecessary. Chill out. Getting into the weeds of 10-15k drives is entirely off-topic and irrelevant to the OP's questions.


Nah, not this time, (Appreciating that’s If you want to hold me accountable for explaining as if I


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## Frick (Oct 14, 2021)

Lei said:


> Return Policy doesn't work that way.
> You can return if it was damaged during transport or didn't match what was advertised, but not if you don't like what you asked for.
> Specially because hard disk is sealed and once tested, it internally keeps track of power-on count and...



That's how it works in civilized society, aka Sweden. 30 days return policy. It depends a bit on the store, some places don't allow it for harddrives though, but most do, afaik. Obviously the thing can't have signs of wear. Yes, this can be abused (buy gaming laptop on friday, use a weekend at a lan party, return on monday), but it's not common.


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## Valantar (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Nah, not this time, (Appreciating that’s If you want to hold me accountable for explaining as if I


Given that you apparently forgot to finish this sentence I don't know what you were going to say, but unless the OP has experience with 10K+ rpm drives, using them as a point of reference is pointless here - this is a purchase advice thread, not a general HDD noise thread, and points of reference/comparison for highly subjective matters like noise are only useful if everyone has experience with them. Let's keep our focus on discussing things that are relevant to the OP, yes?


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 14, 2021)

claes said:


> Nah. With respect, you’re part of the problem. If you can’t hear a car passing on your block, or two systems running in the room you’re in, what does that say about your ambient noise level and your hearing sensitivity?


It says and illustrates exactly my point! That ambient noise levels play a significant role here. And yes, hearing sensitivity does too. And yes, being nearly 70 and having worked next to a military flightline for 24+ definitely has affected my hearing - at certain frequencies.

But that does not change the facts. The differences in SPL with the two drives can be measured with test equipment. And the differences are insignificant when you factor in the fact the drive will be installed inside a computer case that has a CPU fan and likely at least two case fans, a PSU fan, and perhaps 1 or more graphics card fans too. Not to mention other ambient sounds in the computer room as well.


lexluthermiester said:


> As the trolls seem to be setting in, I'm out.


I'll meet you down at the corner pub. I'll buy the first round.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 14, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Your Raptor? The newest models were actually fairly quiet. The models from 150GB on up used a new type of motor/bearing combination that was much quieter.
> 
> In fairness they are still a bit more noisy than any of these new high capacity 7200rpm drives.


Mintes 1TB Velociraptor.


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## Valantar (Oct 14, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> But that does not change the facts. The differences in SPL with the two drives can be measured with test equipment. And the differences are insignificant when you factor in the fact the drive will be installed inside a computer case that has a CPU fan and likely at least two case fans, a PSU fan, and perhaps 1 or more graphics card fans too. Not to mention other ambient sounds in the computer room as well.


That depends on a lot of stuff. In the last builds where I still had HDDs, those were clearly audible above the rest of the system, at least when seeking. The drives in my NAS are very clearly audible as well, despite it having a ball bearing 140mm fan that's rather grindy + two 92mm fans and a PSU fan (though that rarely runs). Frequency, distribution (i.e. how spiky/smooth the frequency graph is), and predictability/evenness of sound all affect perceived loudness, and fans and HDDs are very different in all these aspects.


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## freeagent (Oct 14, 2021)

Mine were just 150s, and they worked pretty good prior to SSDs taking over. But mine were loud, maybe because they were in raid and their movements were synchronized. But one by one they dropped off. Wait! I sold one, afaik it still lives.. the one that got away 

Anyways, for me it was like a supercharged coffee machine. You know that sound..


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## Lei (Oct 15, 2021)

Nope, I don't have cpu fan, gpu fan. my psu fan is always at zero mode. Only 2 fans on the radiator at 738rpm.
Soundmeter app 40cm from my chassis, first 2 mins pc is on, then off:



The first spike on left is notification sound, one the right is my monitor shell contraction (plastic chills)


Bill_Bright said:


> But that does not change the facts. The differences in SPL with the two drives can be measured with test equipment. And the differences are insignificant when you factor in the fact the drive will be installed inside a computer case that has a CPU fan and likely at least two case fans, a PSU fan, and perhaps 1 or more graphics card fans too. Not to mention other ambient sounds in the computer room as well.
> 
> I'll meet you down at the corner pub. I'll buy the first round.


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## ThaiTaffy (Oct 15, 2021)

Someone said earlier that helium is used in Tig/mig welding which is true its primary function is to aid penetration of the weld which led me to wonder, does helium not only reduce sound from the lack of friction but also helps in the actual writing process by making the current the head uses to write onto the platter less.


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 15, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That depends on a lot of stuff.


Exactly illustrating the point I've been posing all along.


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## Lei (Dec 9, 2021)

I put my sound meter inside the chassis very near the western digital blue 5400
the left half of this 5 minute graph shows the spined down to 0 rpm and right half shows the idle (the hum we hear most of the time)





26~27 at 0 rpm and 39~40 at 5400 rpm
I'll post the Heliostar 18tb results soon.


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## Valantar (Dec 9, 2021)

Lei said:


> I put my sound meter inside the chassis very near the western digital blue 5400
> the left half of this 5 minute graph shows the spined down to 0 rpm and right half shows the idle (the hum we hear most of the time)
> 
> View attachment 228278
> ...


This is interesting! Remember to ensure that the sound meter is positioned as identically as possible in relation to both drives when measuring. Even small changes can make a major difference.


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## Lei (Dec 10, 2021)

I got my 2nd hand Ultrastar 18tb. It has worked 4442 hours and was only powered on 28 times!
It was manufactured on 18 June 2021 (175 days ago)
It can be formatted to16.4 terabytes

Uhm, 175x24 < 4442 
I copied Forza Horizon from wd blue on it, and it works


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## Bill_Bright (Dec 10, 2021)

Lei said:


> It has worked 4442 hours
> 175 days ago


That's a pretty good trick considering 175 days times 24 hours equals 4,200 hours.


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## Valantar (Dec 10, 2021)

... maybe it's been in operation on a plane or satellite circling earth against its direction of rotation at _really _high speeds?


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## Lei (Dec 11, 2021)

I mounted the new hdd in the same place my old hard disk was, switched the pc on and...
PSU popped and room went dark. 

Now PSU doesn't work. 

Weird,  I played Forza from this hdd last night. Don't know what happened. 

PSU and monitor share the same cable by extension like always. Two hdds share the same power cable, like yesterday. 

Idk what happened, all I did was to mount hdd in a new place, why psu popped?


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 11, 2021)

Lei said:


> I mounted the new hdd in the same place my old hard disk was, switched the pc on and...
> PSU popped and room went dark.
> 
> Now PSU doesn't work.
> ...


Shorted out,


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## Lei (Dec 11, 2021)

Like how, can hard disk cause this issue?
There was no smoke, no noise from mobo. Seems like power never got to motherboard. 
My mobo has a built-in led strip which lights up during boot. I don't recall seeing that. Just pop and darkness. 

I ordered another PSU



eidairaman1 said:


> Shorted out,


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## Selaya (Dec 11, 2021)

maybe the additional power draw from the extra hdd finally kicked the psu into its red zone so it decided to go kaboom?
wouldn't be unheard of


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## Lei (Dec 11, 2021)

Can't be, it was working last night. I played Forza so sipped enough gpu wattage too with no problem.

My PSU was 650w and I'm using 3900x with gtx1070 (250w together)

The room went dark, I think it's more about what happened inside the PSU than the PC


Selaya said:


> maybe the additional power draw from the extra hdd finally kicked the psu into its red zone so it decided to go kaboom?
> wouldn't be unheard of


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## Selaya (Dec 11, 2021)

well if its a gutless wonder and/or just old its very possible that even a 250-300w can kick it into its red zone, wouldn't be unheard of either


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## Lei (Dec 11, 2021)

Ok, so you mean a new PSU will fix it?
I've been peeking inside the chassis, cleaning and resitting every cable while waiting for the new PSU. 

Btw, you mean the power went inside the PC. Could something be damaged. It was weird that the house fuse broke.


Selaya said:


> well if its a gutless wonder and/or just old its very possible that even a 250-300w can kick it into its red zone, wouldn't be unheard of either


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## Selaya (Dec 11, 2021)

not necessarily.
competent psus are designed in such a way that even if the primary side shorts out it doesnt or at the very least _shouldnt_ fry every- or anything on the secondary.
however, only one way to find out i guess - wait for the new psu


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## Lei (Dec 11, 2021)

Ok thanks, if I connect pin 3 to 4 (black to green) while the 24 connector clip is facing me
.... Will I die?

And if I don't die, will a defected PSU break the house fuse again? I will have to ask the building guard to reset the fuse and I really don't want to contact him again today.



Selaya said:


> not necessarily.
> competent psus are designed in such a way that even if the primary side shorts out it doesnt or at the very least _shouldnt_ fry every- or anything on the secondary.
> however, only one way to find out i guess - wait for the new psu


Edit : did the paperclip test on pin 4 and 5
PSU is dead.


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## Lei (Dec 16, 2021)

Ok, sound meter and Ultrastar in the same place blue used to be:




 



26~27 when spun down to 0 rpm (parked) and humming at 34~35

It also reads and writes twice faster (7° warmer) WD blue seems to write small files better.
Here are WD blue, ran the test 3 times:









Ultrastar:









Looks like I better copy all files from 6tb to 18tb and sell it to get another ultrastar  I really thought 7200rpm would be significantly louder, I was planning to buy 14tb 5400 WD blue, but thanks to @repman244 mentioned that we're mostly idle not seeking, I made a much better decision... and killed my PSU on the way, but learned about fuses.

while copying from blue to helium, can see ultrastar writes twice faster:




Noise comparison:


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