# CPU Temperature Monitors Only Go To -13C?



## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

I have just installed my first Phase Cooler and am using RealTemp and CoreTemp to monitor my temperatures.  However, both seem to stop monitoring at -13C.  Is this a limitation of my hardware, or the software itself?  If the software, what program goes past -13C?  I have a digital readout on my Phase unit and it says -74C, but I know that is the evap temp and not the actual CPU temp.  I am using a MSI P55-GD80 motherboard.  Any ideas?


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## Athlon2K15 (Jul 15, 2010)

most of the time people just get stand alone temp probes and say the hell with software


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## slyfox2151 (Jul 15, 2010)

the temp is stuck and wont be accurate at all at negative -13


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

slyfox2151 said:


> the temp is stuck and wont be accurate at all at negative -13



So are you saying it is a glitch, and is actually above -13C?  Or that it can't read any lower than -13C..  And is that the software or the hardware?


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

AthlonX2 said:


> most of the time people just get stand alone temp probes and say the hell with software



How would that work?  There is a temp probe on the evap, but how do you get one on the CPU itself (like inside the plate and all, or what)?


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

I just felt around the clamshell, and it seems to be really hot..  Is this normal for Phase units?


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## burebista (Jul 15, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> So are you saying it is a glitch, and is actually above -13C?  Or that it can't read any lower than -13C..  And is that the software or the hardware?


You have a simple formula for measuring core temps:

Absolute Core Temperature = TJMax - DTS 

TJMax value is known (written in CPU MSR since Nehalem) and DTS is read straight from CPU on-die sensor.
So the only variable is DTS. If it stops at 113 you'll always read -13°C as core temperature (of course, assuming that TJMax is 100).


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

burebista said:


> You have a simple formula for measuring core temps:
> 
> Absolute Core Temperature = TJMax - DTS
> 
> ...



So is there any way to change that (like changing the TJ Max in the RealTemp settings) so that RealTemp (or CoreTemp) will show the lower temperatures, or am I getting confused by all of this..


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## burebista (Jul 15, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> So is there any way to change that ...


Nope. Instead you can bug Intel for their crappy sensors.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

burebista said:


> Nope. Instead you can bug Intel for their crappy sensors.



lol probably will do that.  Thanks for your help.

By the way, do you happen to know what the correct TJ Max is for an Intel i7-875K?  RealTemp has it set at 99 right now, but I think that is just the default, and not the actual...


*EDIT*
Also, does anyone have any ideas as to why my digital temp readout on the phase unit says -69C, but RealTemp says that the CPU is 23C (positive 23)?  Is there really supposed to be that much of a difference, or do I possibly have the cooler mounted incorrectly (or is one of the temp readouts incorrect)?  Thanks.


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## burebista (Jul 15, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> By the way, do you happen to know what the correct TJ Max is for an Intel i7-875K?  RealTemp has it set at 99 right now, but I think that is just the default, and not the actual...


As I said before for Nehalem and latter CPU's TJMax value is written in MSR so no more guess. So if RT says 99 then 99 it is. 


NinjaNife said:


> Is there really supposed to be that much of a difference, or do I possibly have the cooler mounted incorrectly (or is one of the temp readouts incorrect)?


First for your K CPU take latest RealTemp beta, it contains a fix for Core i5-655 and Core i7-875 with their adjustable multipliers.
Second, formula is simple RealTemp is only doing a extraction of DTS readings from that TJMax value. So if DTS is wrong so your final core temperature it is.


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## mmoeller (Jul 15, 2010)

The Distance to TjMax that is read from the IA32_THERM_STATUS_MSR is only a 7-bit number. So the distance can have values only between 0 and 127. Your Intel i7 should have the TjMax value in an MSR as well. So assuming TjMax = 99°C is correct, the lowest reading you could get is -28°C. But there could be additional limitations in on the values showing up in these 7-bits. And of course the core temperature sensors are very unlikely to give any usefull values at these temperatures. 

You could try to monitor the temperatures with the Open Hardware Monitor as well. It is open source, so if you know C# a bit, you can take a look at the code to see how the values are read and if there are any artificial limitations. The Open Hardware Monitor drops negative temperatures in certain cases from mainboard sensors, because usually they are bad readings.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

mmoeller said:


> You could try to monitor the temperatures with the Open Hardware Monitor as well.



I downloaded that and tried it, but for some reason it doesn't show any CPU temperatures at all.  It shows temps for my motherboard, graphics card, and even my hard drives, but nothing for the CPU (just the clocks and such, but no temps).  Any idea why?


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## mmoeller (Jul 15, 2010)

Can you save a report (File / Save Report...) and post or send it via PM? Then I can take a look and see why its not working (most likely because I was too stupid when writing the code ).


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## mmoeller (Jul 15, 2010)

Thank you for the report (PM). I have taken a look why the Open Hardware Monitor does not display anything in this case.

It also reads a TjMax = 99°C from the MSR.

The 7-bit value of the Distance to TjMax is 0x70 in hex, or 112 in decimal (read from IA32_THERM_STATUS MSR). This would give also a temperature of 99 - 112 = -13°C

But the "Reading Valid" bit is not set in your case in the IA32_THERM_STATUS MSR. Thats why no value is displayed in the Open Hardware Monitor.

So I think this -13°C value has no meaning (or I read the documentation wrong).

At "normal" temperatures the Open Hardware Monitor should display a core temperature value on your CPU.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

mmoeller said:


> Thank you for the report (PM). I have taken a look why the Open Hardware Monitor does not display anything in this case.
> 
> It also reads a TjMax = 99°C from the MSR.
> 
> ...



So you mean that since the -13C value is not accurate, the hardware monitor recognizes this and just doesn't display it at all?  So that no bad information is given?


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## mmoeller (Jul 15, 2010)

there is an additional bit in the register where the -13°C is read from, which indicates if the temperature sensor reading is valid or not (that's at least what the Intel documentation says).

In your case this bit is not set (meaning the temperature reading is not valid). At normal core temperatures as seen on other systems the "reading valid" bit is usually set (meaning the temperature reading is valid).

The Open Hardware Monitor prefers not to show any temperature which is said to be invalid by the hardware. If you use your CPU at higher temperatures it should display a temperature once more in the Open Hardware Monitor.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

I just did a Prime95 test and found something strange..  It seems that 2 of my CPU cores run 20C lower than the other 2.  Meaning that 2 of them are running 35-45C, and the other 2 are running 55-65C...  Is my CPU possibly malfunctioning (yes those temps are positive; I OC'd the CPU so it would show more), or is this normal?

Core #0: 43C
Core #1: 54C
Core #2: 27C
Core #3: 61C


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## unclewebb (Jul 15, 2010)

Intel's sensors are designed to trigger thermal throttling at 99C or thermal shutdown about 25C after that.  They were never designed for accuracy, especially at idle or when using cooling that takes the sensors down below 0C.

For RealTemp, I decided to ignore the bit in the register that determines if a reading is valid or not.  By ignoring this bit on the Core 2 CPUs, I found that I was able to get reasonably accurate data beyond 100C up to the thermal shutdown point between 125C and 130C.  How accurate is anyone's guess but my logic was that an invalid temperature number might be better than no temperature number at all and then a user could decide if it made any sense.  I think I'll add a warning so users know when the sensor is reporting data that it has determined to be not valid.

If you are running Prime95 Small FFTs on all threads of your CPU then in theory your core temperatures should be almost identical when the CPU has had some time to reach its maximum temperature.  Most of the difference you are seeing is usually just sensor error.  There is a lot of information about these sensors that Intel has never publicly released so all software is left guessing.  It's an approximation at best.  On some CPUs the approximation is very accurate while on many others, it is not.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 15, 2010)

I normally use In-place Large FFTs, since they seem to stress the CPU most in a short amount of time.  Not sure if that would make any difference.


*EDIT*
I did a Prime95 test and it said that a hardware failure was imminent.  From what I can tell, the CPU overheated when I had an air cooler (Zalman CNPS9900 NT), and that is possibly why some of the temps are so different.  I contacted Intel and they have agreed to give me a RMA for my CPU, so hopefully the next one will work better.


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## unclewebb (Jul 16, 2010)

If Prime95 tells you that you had a hardware failure that means your CPU is not stable because it's not set up correctly.  Usually some bios adjustments can fix that up.  There's probably no need to replace it.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

unclewebb said:


> If Prime95 tells you that you had a hardware failure that means your CPU is not stable because it's not set up correctly.  Usually some bios adjustments can fix that up.  There's probably no need to replace it.



I had thought of that, but it had overheated before, and I had an AMD 965BE that did the same thing, and a RMA fixed the error..  Not sure, but we will see


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## DOM (Jul 16, 2010)

so how high of a oc have you tryed ?

and if it moves alot lik you said it might not be on there right

also do you know wut load it was tuned for ? did someone build it for you or you got it used ?


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

DOM said:


> also do you know wut load it was tuned for ? did someone build it for you or you got it used ?



I bought it used from "cdawall" on these forums.  I believe it was tuned for a smaller load, but he told me he ran it well on an AMD Thuban with a good OC at -30C or something, so I decided it should be able to handle an i7-875K..

*EDIT*
Like I mentioned above, there is no way for me to tell (even guess) what temps I am actually getting, since the monitor only shows to -13C, so it might be -20 or even -50 for all I know.  All I can really tell is the temp of the evap (from the digital readout which has a probe on the evap), and that says -74C right now (it went down to -69C at one point, but the CPU temps said positive 30C at that point).


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## Arrakis9 (Jul 16, 2010)

i think the best way your going to figure this all out is to invest a little on a temp sensor that will go down to the negatives you need and stick it in the cpu socket right next to the cpu that should tell you exactly how hot or cold its getting. my thought is the temp sensors just arnt reading correctly


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

Arrakis+9 said:


> i think the best way your going to figure this all out is to invest a little on a temp sensor that will go down to the negatives you need and stick it in the cpu socket right next to the cpu that should tell you exactly how hot or cold its getting. my thought is the temp sensors just arnt reading correctly



Do you have one in mind?  And how exactly do I put a temp sensor *in* the CPU socket without unseating the CPU..  Or did I misunderstand?


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## Arrakis9 (Jul 16, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> Do you have one in mind?  And how exactly do I put a temp sensor *in* the CPU socket without unseating the CPU..  Or did I misunderstand?



this at least will get you down to -20c to let you know the thing is in the subs 
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5..._Thermometer_-_Blue_Backlight.html?tl=g34c137

as for were to lay it 






theres actually a little gap underneath the hold down bracket to the left of the top right hand screw on the socket that you could stick that sucker in and that would give you a pretty accurate guess on how cold the cpu is


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## DOM (Jul 16, 2010)

i got a volt metter / temp gage from sears craftsman not the best temp gage but it came with a probe i put it on the side of the ihs from he cpu 

it was like 30 buck i dont remeber


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

So you mean between the CPU clamp/bracket and the CPU, not between the CPU and the socket then correct?  So you are measuring the temp of the top corner of the CPU?


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## Arrakis9 (Jul 16, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> So you mean between the CPU clamp/bracket and the CPU, not between the CPU and the socket then correct?  So you are measuring the temp of the top corner of the CPU?



yup you got it.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

Hmm...  I will have to look into that.  Thanks for that.


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## DOM (Jul 16, 2010)

did you insulate your motherboard?


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## Arrakis9 (Jul 16, 2010)

make sure to hit that thanks button on everyone that helped u out


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

Arrakis+9 said:


> make sure to hit that thanks button on everyone that helped u out



lol I always forget that sorry   It is fixed now


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

DOM said:


> did you insulate your motherboard?



Yes I did..  I used Vaseline in the CPU socket, and Art Eraser around it and Neoprene on top of that and on the back of the board (insulated for 24/7 use).  Spent like 5-8 hours doing it on the floor :/  My back was killing me lol!


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## DOM (Jul 16, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> Yes I did..  I used Vaseline in the CPU socket, and Art Eraser around it and Neoprene on top of that and on the back of the board (insulated for 24/7 use).  Spent like 5-8 hours doing it on the floor :/  My back was killing me lol!



 it takes me like 20mins 

but idk about the phase it seems like its tuned for light loads mine only gets -50's C idle and -40's C load but its the evap temps but it was made to hold 300watt load in the -40's

and on my i7 920-980X my temps go above 0C on heavy loads


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

DOM said:


> it takes me like 20mins
> 
> but idk about the phase it seems like its tuned for light loads mine only gets -50's C idle and -40's C load but its the evap temps but it was made to hold 300watt load in the -40's
> 
> and on my i7 920-980X my temps go above 0C on heavy loads



You should insulate mine for me 

Yeah the evap temps (or whatever is showing on the digital readout) always stays between -65C and -75C.  That is with load and without.  What are your CPU temps with load?  Does RealTemp or whatever you use still give a negative value, or do you get a positive value like me (even though the evap stays negative)?


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## DOM (Jul 16, 2010)

if its showing that cold and doesnt drop with load im thinking its not on there right or the gage is wrong

mine shows -XX it doesnt start moving to the 0c+ on the cores untill i get in to the 5GHz range on load


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

DOM said:


> if its showing that cold and doesnt drop with load im thinking its not on there right or the gage is wrong
> 
> mine shows -XX it doesnt start moving to the 0c+ on the cores untill i get in to the 5GHz range on load



I guess I had better get a new temp gauge then..  I am not sure how to check if it is on correctly or not though...  I am using a homemade mount (temporarily), but it has a square plate on the evap and it seems to be solidly on there (I have remounted it 2-3 times with the same effects, and the thermal compound has always been evenly distributed over the CPU).  I wish that the problem is just that I mounted it badly, but I can't see how that would be possible unless the amount of tightening on the screws makes much of a difference (I put it pretty tight).  Is tighter better or worse?


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## DOM (Jul 16, 2010)

i put mine the tightest it goes but what kind of paste are you using ?


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 16, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> I have just installed my first Phase Cooler and am using RealTemp and CoreTemp to monitor my temperatures.  However, both seem to stop monitoring at -13C.  Is this a limitation of my hardware, or the software itself?  If the software, what program goes past -13C?  I have a digital readout on my Phase unit and it says -74C, but I know that is the evap temp and not the actual CPU temp.  I am using a MSI P55-GD80 motherboard.  Any ideas?



just an fyi -74c is the coolant temp in the phase unit, not the temp of the coolant head against the cpu

typically unless you're runnign a dual phase unit (ie phase 1 cools, phase 2 takes the already cooled coolant and cools it further then it passes to the head) you're not going to see -74c on the coolant head with a heat load applied.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 16, 2010)

DOM said:


> i put mine the tightest it goes but what kind of paste are you using ?



I am using Arctic Silver Ceramique



yogurt_21 said:


> just an fyi -74c is the coolant temp in the phase unit, not the temp of the coolant head against the cpu
> 
> typically unless you're runnign a dual phase unit (ie phase 1 cools, phase 2 takes the already cooled coolant and cools it further then it passes to the head) you're not going to see -74c on the coolant head with a heat load applied.



Okay thanks for that.  That definitely makes sense.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 17, 2010)

Hey I was just thinking...  How can the temps I am seeing be the coolant?  Unless someone somehow drilled into the evap, how would they be able to get the sensor in..  My probe cable is wrapped around the outside of the hose, and disappears into the clamshell.  Does this make sense to anyone?


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## DOM (Jul 17, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> Hey I was just thinking...  How can the temps I am seeing be the coolant?  Unless someone somehow drilled into the evap, how would they be able to get the sensor in..  My probe cable is wrapped around the outside of the hose, and disappears into the clamshell.  Does this make sense to anyone?



idk how it can it must be on the evap, like i said its seems its not ment to take heavy loads ss phases can be had to be colder for like super pi runs etc light loads


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## NinjaNife (Jul 17, 2010)

I am not sure the exact load it was made for, but I was told that it is designed to try and hold around -75C or so, and made for 24/7 use.  I believe the original cooler was built for an AMD Athalon (possibly 939 socket), but it has since been modded by Chilly1 (as far as I was told) and was since used for larger loads (the previous owner used it on an AMD Thuban).  It seems to be working pretty well, but I am somewhat worried about the CPU running at positive temps.  Is it bad for the Phase unit if the CPU is running at positive temps, even if the evap is at negative temps?  Will that harm the unit or CPU?


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## DOM (Jul 17, 2010)

did you ever say what speed the cpu is at and what volts ?

it it doesnt get to hot eveything should be fine


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## NinjaNife (Jul 17, 2010)

My CPU is stock 2.9GHz (auto volts, not sure what it is), and I had it overclocked on air to 3.6GHz at 1.275V (35-45C idle, 65-75C Prime95 test, possibly higher).  Once I got the Phase cooler on, I upped the OC to 4.0GHz at 1.3V.  Using Prime95, I got (4.0GHz 1.3V) temps around 40C (positive) with the Phase unit installed.


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## DOM (Jul 19, 2010)

something isnt right those temps seem high for a low oc on a ss

have you tryed starting the ss up and see if the evap frost up ?

can you post a pic of the ss


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

DOM said:


> something isnt right those temps seem high for a low oc on a ss
> 
> have you tryed starting the ss up and see if the evap frost up ?
> 
> can you post a pic of the ss



I believe that I overheated the CPU when it had the air cooler on it, and because of that the temps are higher.

I have started the SS up without it being on the CPU, and frost starts to form within 30sec or so.  Within 5min there is a large amount of buildup normally (depending on the humidity).

What pic would you like?  I mean, a pic of the evap or something?  Or just an outside one (like the case)?


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## fatguy1992 (Jul 19, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> My CPU is stock 2.9GHz (auto volts, not sure what it is), and I had it overclocked on air to 3.6GHz at 1.275V (35-45C idle, 65-75C Prime95 test, possibly higher).  Once I got the Phase cooler on, I upped the OC to 4.0GHz at 1.3V.  Using Prime95, I got (4.0GHz 1.3V) temps around 40C (positive) with the Phase unit installed.



Sounds like it could be one of two things to me...

1. Your evap to CPU contact is very bad, what does the evap temp read @ under load?  
2. Your SS was tuned for very low heat loads, its not normal for a SS to hit -74C.  Even my big 2hp SS only hits -60C unloaded (but was tuned for massive heat loads).  

Sorry if I missed it, what are the specs of the unit (eg compressor, condenser).  A few pictures of the unit as DOM asked for would help.


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 19, 2010)

fatguy1992 said:


> Sounds like it could be one of two things to me...
> 
> 1. Your evap to CPU contact is very bad, what does the evap temp read @ under load?
> 2. Your SS was tuned for very low heat loads, its not normal for a SS to hit -74C.  Even my big 2hp SS only hits -60C unloaded (but was tuned for massive heat loads).
> ...



+1

it sounds like you might be running a badly tuned unit or your contact is bad.

I have my modified vapochill classic tuned for heatload as it was designed to run athlons (yes just plain athlons, not athon xp's, not athlon 64's, not athlong x2's, just plain athlons)
due to that ti took a bit of tweaking to even hit a 150w load capacity. 


the 2 main prebuilt units around during amd's 939 socket were the prometeia mach 2 and the vapochill lightspeed. 

of the two, the mach 2 was more temperature tuned while the lightspeed was more heatload tuned

if you have a prebuilt I'd guess it was the prometeia mach 2 based on what you've described thus far. 

but it's entirely possible you have a custom unit in which case we'll need the actual info off of each componenet as fatguy and dom have already said.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

fatguy1992 said:


> Sounds like it could be one of two things to me...
> 
> 1. Your evap to CPU contact is very bad, what does the evap temp read @ under load?
> 2. Your SS was tuned for very low heat loads, its not normal for a SS to hit -74C.  Even my big 2hp SS only hits -60C unloaded (but was tuned for massive heat loads).
> ...



I don't know what the specs of the compressor or condenser are (this is a used unit, and other than pics I am unsure how to check; I think there is a label on the compressor, but the condensers don't have anything that I have seen).  I am posting some pics now.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

These are some pics that were sent to me by the seller (I had asked for some measurements, which is why the ruler is in some).  I could take more recent pics, but it looks exactly the same now as it did in these pics.  If you are looking for something more specific, let me know and I will try to get some other pics.


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## DOM (Jul 19, 2010)

the only thing i can think is it needs to be re-tuned for a heavier load 

i hope you got it cheap


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

yogurt_21 said:


> +1
> 
> it sounds like you might be running a badly tuned unit or your contact is bad.
> 
> ...




I believe that this is the "Prometeia Mach 2", but was modded (the seller told me something like "majorly modded by Chilly1").  What was changed  I am not sure.  I do know that the display on the front says "Prometeia" when it is first turning on, which is why I am guessing it is a "Prometeia Mach 2".  So I guess this might count as possibly a pre-built _and_ a custom lol.

If you need anything else please let me know.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

DOM said:


> the only thing i can think is it needs to be re-tuned for a heavier load
> 
> i hope you got it cheap



How hard is re-tuning?  Or how expensive would it be to have someone who knows what they are doing work on it 


*EDIT*
Forgot to mention about the pics..  The "NO SHUT DOWN" is always on there, and doesn't seem to be anything other than possibly a glitch.  My power cut out last night, and when it came back on the "NO SHUT DOWN" was gone and "NO MAINS" had replaced it.  Not sure if that means anything either, but everything (compressor and fans) are running fine, so I just ignored it for now.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

Here is a link to the thread where it was for sale (I talked to cdawall in a different one of my threads, and ended up buying it from him after a lot of PM's).

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=123931


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## DOM (Jul 19, 2010)

so how much was shipping ? and i saw the guy that modded it Chilly1 seems he owns ppl money over at XS 

but i only know 2 ppl that can retune it for you the one that made mine and runmc over at XS


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

DOM said:


> so how much was shipping ? and i saw the guy that modded it Chilly1 seems he owns ppl money over at XS
> 
> but i only know 2 ppl that can retune it for you the one that made mine and runmc over at XS



Shipping was about $65.

Could you clarify the "and i saw the guy that modded it Chilly1 seems he owns ppl money over at XS" part?  That doesn't make sense to me (confused by the wording or something).  Who owes people money?  Chilly1 or someone else (and did you mean Chilly1 _didn't_ mod it, someone else did, or something else)?

Do you have any idea how much it would cost to re-tune ($50-100, $100-150, $150-200, etc), or do I have to ask one of those guys?  Thanks for your help.


*EDIT*
I wanted to clarify that I am very happy with this unit.  Although it may not be completely perfect for my setup, it is still working better than air or water, so I am happy.  I don't blame cdawall for any of these issues (I know a unit made for an AMD 939 isn't supposed to work on an Intel 1156, and the temps I am getting with this are still pretty decent, at least for mE).  Just thought I would put that out there


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## DOM (Jul 19, 2010)

on cdwalls f\s thread he put that Chilly1 is the one that modded it, and over in xtremesystems.org i guess something happened he kept ppls money and units he was supose to retune or work on so thats why i said to ask runmc how much he'll charge to retune it i hear his a good guy to work with

cuz if it was me i would sell it, if its going to be to much to retune cuz its like 100+ just for shipping then to get it tuned for higher load


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

DOM said:


> on cdwalls f\s thread he put that Chilly1 is the one that modded it, and over in xtremesystems.org i guess something happened he kept ppls money and units he was supose to retune or work on so thats why i said to ask runmc how much he'll charge to retune it i hear his a good guy to work with
> 
> cuz if it was me i would sell it, if its going to be to much to retune cuz its like 100+ just for shipping then to get it tuned for higher load



So did cdawall or Chilly1 keep people's money and units (still kinda confused lol)..  I will PM runmc later if I remember.  Thanks


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## DOM (Jul 19, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> So did cdawall or Chilly1 keep people's money and units (still kinda confused lol)..  I will PM runmc later if I remember.  Thanks



Chilly1


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

DOM said:


> Chilly1



Oohhhhh..  Now I understand lol.  Sorry, but my brain isn't working well today   Too tired from a late night on my pc


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## Jor3llBR (Jul 19, 2010)

You need a K-probe installed next to the IHS (underneath the cpu slot cover) and a Digital Thermometer to have accurate temps:



....



Once you go subzero there is no way on using mobo sensors or software.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 19, 2010)

Jor3llBR said:


> You need a K-probe installed next to the IHS (underneath the cpu slot cover) and a Digital Thermometer to have accurate temps:
> 
> [url]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1336/img0032v.th.jpg[/URL]....[url]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2715/img0033ml.th.jpg[/URL]
> 
> Once you go subzero there is no way on using mobo sensors or software.



Would you mind giving some links to exactly what you mean (the probes and such), or tell which brand/version you recommend?


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## fatguy1992 (Jul 19, 2010)

From what I can tell that compressor and condenser should be good enough.  So it looks like it was tuned for low heat loads.  A new evap would also help a fair bit, that one looks like the old ordinal one.


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 19, 2010)

depending on what you have around locally you may be able to take it down to a local A/C shop and have it tuned for you there. it's up to the shop on what to charge, but I had a freind get his vapochill XE overhauled for 100$ and it now runs better than any prebult I've seen with a -30c head temp with a 200w load. Being that the XE's we're designed for a 180w load at -5c Coolant temp that's not bad at all.


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## fatguy1992 (Jul 20, 2010)

What do mean by prebuilt?  Vapochills etc or ones made by phase builders from forums etc?


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## DOM (Jul 20, 2010)

fatguy1992 said:


> What do mean by prebuilt?  Vapochills etc or ones made by phase builders from forums etc?



they where prebuilt  like the ocz ones but idk if those even made it out to retail 

but builders modded them for the ppl that got them and they couldnt hold them temps or wanted them colder idk i think they where out before i knew anything about comps that was in 05 lol


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## NinjaNife (Jul 20, 2010)

yogurt_21 said:


> depending on what you have around locally you may be able to take it down to a local A/C shop and have it tuned for you there. it's up to the shop on what to charge, but I had a freind get his vapochill XE overhauled for 100$ and it now runs better than any prebult I've seen with a -30c head temp with a 200w load. Being that the XE's we're designed for a 180w load at -5c Coolant temp that's not bad at all.



How would I describe it to them though?  Just "tune it" or would they know what "tune for a 300W load" means...


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## Jor3llBR (Jul 20, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> Would you mind giving some links to exactly what you mean (the probes and such), or tell which brand/version you recommend?



PM sent!


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## NinjaNife (Jul 20, 2010)

Jor3llBR said:


> PM sent!



PM recieved.  Thanks.


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## fatguy1992 (Jul 20, 2010)

Jor3llBR said:


> You need a K-probe installed next to the IHS (underneath the cpu slot cover) and a Digital Thermometer to have accurate temps:
> 
> [url]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1336/img0032v.th.jpg[/URL]....[url]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2715/img0033ml.th.jpg[/URL]
> 
> Once you go subzero there is no way on using mobo sensors or software.



Off topic but what are you using to insulate your board there?

Haven't seen that before.

Thanks


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 20, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> How would I describe it to them though?  Just "tune it" or would they know what "tune for a 300W load" means...



they wouldn't specifically know a rated heat load target on the coolant head but they can maximize the efficiency of the unit with the best coolant for the compressor, possibly replacing the condensor, chaging the rated voltage settings, etc. The unit is just a mini-refrigerator, they'd know exactly how to boost cooling performance without necessaryly knowing what heatload it could handle.



fatguy1992 said:


> What do mean by prebuilt?  Vapochills etc or ones made by phase builders from forums etc?



the prebuilts were stand alone phase change units made to be moutned onto the cpu by a manufacturer. The main two I poster were (Asetek) Vapochill and Prometeia. These manufacturers specialized in these extreme coolers back in the day. Lately I don't think either is making these units anymore, (though vapochill is still making water and aircooling products).

now phase units and peltiers have been used to cool machine and radio components for 70+ years. Many modders make their own units by either taking apart old A/C's or refrigerators, or by simply buying the individual components and then turning them into phase units.  These guys don't stop there though and continue to make dual phase or even triple phaseunits some of which can rival the cooling power of LN2. 

the prebuilts were a niche market that simply wasn't profitible those who had 800-1000$ to spare for a unit, could just as easily pay a modder for a dual phase unit that offerd twice the performance. 

http://www.crazypc.com/products/9290GT.html
this is likely the OP's unit but his has the optional Lian Li case mod as seen in this review. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/prometeia-mach2gt.html


http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?caller=articles/asetek/lightspeedl/lightspeed.html
this is the vapochill lightspeed, the last phase unit vapochill made they started with the classic and made some modifications to it along the way (XE, PE, etc) and then put this out in 04. 

being that they were released that long ago, neither were made with quad core cpu's in mind. This is why modifications are necessary.


edit: ah so this is why the vapochill line was discontinued
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...tion-efforts2c-cites-intel-socket-issues.aspx


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## NinjaNife (Jul 20, 2010)

fatguy1992 said:


> Off topic but what are you using to insulate your board there?
> 
> Haven't seen that before.
> 
> Thanks



I believe he is using Dragon Skin (might be wrong but that is what it looks like).  It is a silicone that is normally used for Hollywood movie special effects, but also works as an insulation/sealer.  Here is a link: http://www.smooth-on.com/Silicone-Rubber-an/c2_1115_1339/index.html

I know I wasn't asked the question, but even if that isn't what he is using this stuff is worth checking out


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## NinjaNife (Jul 20, 2010)

yogurt_21 said:


> they wouldn't specifically know a rated heat load target on the coolant head but they can maximize the efficiency of the unit with the best coolant for the compressor, possibly replacing the condensor, chaging the rated voltage settings, etc. The unit is just a mini-refrigerator, they'd know exactly how to boost cooling performance without necessaryly knowing what heatload it could handle.



Is there any difference between tuning for performance vs tuning for 24/7 use?  I mean, this unit is for 24/7 (not sure if it was modded that way or originally made), and refrigerators aren't, so if I took this into a refrigeration place would it still work correctly..  I know this is probably a dumb question, but I want to be sure (I made a phase unit for fun once, and although I would never put it on my good computer it makes frost pretty well.  I did notice though that if different coolants are used then sometimes the longevity of your compressor goes down).  Thanks for your help.



yogurt_21 said:


> http://www.crazypc.com/products/9290GT.html
> this is likely the OP's unit but his has the optional Lian Li case mod as seen in this review. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/display/prometeia-mach2gt.html



Yeah the one in the second link looks like mine.  I wish I had the case from the first one though lol (black > strange tan).



yogurt_21 said:


> edit: ah so this is why the vapochill line was discontinued
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...tion-efforts2c-cites-intel-socket-issues.aspx



So have I overcome this socket problem by filling it with Vaseline?  Or must I watch out for something else as well?


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 20, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> Is there any difference between tuning for performance vs tuning for 24/7 use?  I mean, this unit is for 24/7 (not sure if it was modded that way or originally made), and refrigerators aren't, so if I took this into a refrigeration place would it still work correctly..  I know this is probably a dumb question, but I want to be sure (I made a phase unit for fun once, and although I would never put it on my good computer it makes frost pretty well.  I did notice though that if different coolants are used then sometimes the longevity of your compressor goes down).  Thanks for your help.



they should be able to tweak it for 24/7 use, just be sure to mention it when you bring it in. 



NinjaNife said:


> Yeah the one in the second link looks like mine.  I wish I had the case from the first one though lol (black > strange tan).



dunno why someone would paint it very odd, If you have the time get some paint thinner and see if the original stainless is intact. 



NinjaNife said:


> So have I overcome this socket problem by filling it with Vaseline?  Or must I watch out for something else as well?



dielectric grease is what we always used in the socket, while these later phase units seem to have come without the need of doing so, it's tried and true and been a practice long before intel made microprocessors. 

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001202.html

read through that a bit before doing anything I've used it with great success over the years, but I like people to be well informed before recomending it. 

the rest is making sure you've got the neoprene tight and using rtv aroud the socket.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 21, 2010)

yogurt_21 said:


> they should be able to tweak it for 24/7 use, just be sure to mention it when you bring it in.



I will be sure to do that thanks.



yogurt_21 said:


> dunno why someone would paint it very odd, If you have the time get some paint thinner and see if the original stainless is intact.



No no..  I meant that if you check that second link (the one to the review), you will see a small pic at the top that shows a tan-ish colored box (the cooler) with an display and ventilation holes in it.  That is the color of my cooler (looks identical, although mine definitely looks used lol).



yogurt_21 said:


> dielectric grease is what we always used in the socket, while these later phase units seem to have come without the need of doing so, it's tried and true and been a practice long before intel made microprocessors.
> 
> http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001202.html
> 
> read through that a bit before doing anything I've used it with great success over the years, but I like people to be well informed before recomending it.



I read part of that, but from what I can tell you have to just put the grease into the socket and then press down.  To me this wouldn't ensure a proper contact on all of the pins.  That is why I used Vaseline.  Since you melt it until it becomes a liquid and _then_ put on the CPU, heating both together, the Vaseline flows around the pins instead of just squishing around them.  Maybe dielectric grease works, but I like the thought of Vaseline better (just gives me more security in my mind lol).  Have you ever tried using Vaseline?



yogurt_21 said:


> the rest is making sure you've got the neoprene tight and using rtv aroud the socket.



I have neoprene around it, but what is "rtv"?  I don't ever remember seeing that before..


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 21, 2010)

rtv silicone, it's a moisture barrier.

the dieelectric won't actually prevent contatc with the pins, it will simply move around theme when you mount the cpu. I can assure you the contatc is good. I haven't personally used vaseline but for me if you find a solution that works, why change? So if vaseline works for you, by all means continue.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 29, 2010)

Update:

I got my new CPU and was going to install it (using a digital thermometer with K-type probe), but ran into a snag.

I was taking the Phase evaporator off of the CPU, and the hose broke.  Now, instead of a new CPU installed and Phase unit mounted, I have a bedroom filled with refrigerant, a Phase unit that probably can never be fixed (going to check tomorrow), and no money to fix it/buy a new unit with (so my main PC is down until further notice)..  Any ideas on what I should do?  I have only had this unit for 3 weeks, so wasn't expecting this kind of trouble


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## DOM (Jul 29, 2010)

eww thats has to suck, but did u bend it to much or it just busted when u where taking it off ? the only way its going to work is if you send it to a builder to replace the line dont think theres another way to fix it with out sending money


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## Mussels (Jul 29, 2010)

NinjaNife said:


> Update:
> 
> I got my new CPU and was going to install it (using a digital thermometer with K-type probe), but ran into a snag.
> 
> I was taking the Phase evaporator off of the CPU, and the hose broke.  Now, instead of a new CPU installed and Phase unit mounted, I have a bedroom filled with refrigerant, a Phase unit that probably can never be fixed (going to check tomorrow), and no money to fix it/buy a new unit with (so my main PC is down until further notice)..  Any ideas on what I should do?  I have only had this unit for 3 weeks, so wasn't expecting this kind of trouble



send it back under warranty, air your room out.

that or sniff the fumes and get high/die from it.


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## DOM (Jul 29, 2010)

Mussels said:


> send it back under warranty, air your room out.
> 
> that or sniff the fumes and get high/die from it.



lmfao he got it from cdwall sold it on here


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## Mussels (Jul 29, 2010)

DOM said:


> lmfao he got it from cdwall sold it on here



go murder CDAwall, steal his room.


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 29, 2010)

now you've little choice but to find an A/C shop or send it to a modder, that's the only way to fix it now. both options will cost A/C shop being cheaper and both can repair and recharge the unit.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 29, 2010)

DOM said:


> eww thats has to suck, but did u bend it to much or it just busted when u where taking it off ? the only way its going to work is if you send it to a builder to replace the line dont think theres another way to fix it with out sending money



I didn't bend it much; if you look at the pics I uploaded previously, you will see that the hose and evaporator is lying down on top of the unit.  I set it down exactly like that, and it broke about 2 inches (can't see the break, but hear the gas leaking) up from the top of the unit (right where it bends over when you lay the hose on top).  I figured that was okay since that is how all of the seller's pics were


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## NinjaNife (Jul 29, 2010)

yogurt_21 said:


> now you've little choice but to find an A/C shop or send it to a modder, that's the only way to fix it now. both options will cost A/C shop being cheaper and both can repair and recharge the unit.



Yeah I am going to try a A/C shop, but don't think it is worth a modder fixing (probably cost as much as I paid for it after shipping and all).

The worst part is I am leaving on a trip today, and was packing my computer for it, and now I don't have any cooling lmfao.  Terrible timing :shadedshu


*EDIT*
When I talk to the refrigeration/AC place, what exactly do I tell them?  I have called a few, but they said they don't have any experience with these and aren't sure what to do lol.  What is the best way to explain what this is, how to fix it, and what heat load it needs to be tuned for (that is probably the main question, since I have no idea the BTU's or Watts or whatever of my i7-875K, especially OC'd)?


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## DOM (Jul 29, 2010)

dont you have the stock cooler ?

im not sure if the a/c place can tune it for a certain watt load like the builders do, i can ask the one that built mine how much he'll charge to repair and re-charge it and etc.


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## NinjaNife (Jul 31, 2010)

DOM said:


> dont you have the stock cooler ?
> 
> im not sure if the a/c place can tune it for a certain watt load like the builders do, i can ask the one that built mine how much he'll charge to repair and re-charge it and etc.



Yeah I put the stock cooler on for now.  It was a pain removing all of the insulation (all my hard work down the drain lol).  Kinda bent some CPU pins (stupid rags), but got them put back in place without too much trouble 

If you could ask your builder, that would be great.  So far one HVAC technician has agreed to look at it when I get home, and the others said they can't fix it and have no experience (after I explained what it is and what is broken).  Any other help would be great


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