# Leaked AI-powered Game Revenue Model Paper Foretells a Dystopian Nightmare



## btarunr (Jan 16, 2018)

An artificial intelligence (AI) will deliberately tamper with your online gameplay as you scramble for more in-game items to win. The same AI will manipulate your state of mind at every step of your game to guide you towards more micro-transactions. Nothing in-game is truly fixed-rate. The game maps out your home, and cross-references it with your online footprint, to have a socio-economic picture of you, so the best possible revenue model, and anti buyer's remorse strategy can be implemented on you. These, and more, are part of the dystopian nightmare that takes flight if a new AI-powered online game revenue model is implemented in MMO games of the near future. 

The paper's slide-deck and signed papers (with corrections) were leaked to the web by an unknown source, with bits of information (names, brands) redacted. It has too much information to be dismissed off hand for being a prank. It proposes leveraging AI to gather and build a socio-economic profile of a player to implement the best revenue-generation strategy. It also proposes using an AI to consistently "alter" the player's gameplay, such that the player's actions don't have the desired result leading toward beating the game, but towards an "unfair" consequence that motivates more in-game spending. The presentation spans a little over 50 slides, and is rich in text that requires little further explanation. 



 

 

 

 

The rest of the presentation follows.





 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## techy1 (Jan 16, 2018)

EA right now:


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## R-T-B (Jan 16, 2018)

It was only a matter of time before "telemetry" met "free to play," and had this as its baby.


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## Shihab (Jan 16, 2018)

I'll postpone reading the "paper" until a version in a proper format (read: not photographs of slides) pops up, but for those who did read it, any mention of EA's EOMM?

I guess this was to be expected. Not good, but expected. Maximizing profits is always the number one goal in a capitalist system, and data-driven and psychological-manipulation approaches have been here for a while. Welcome to consumerism! 
Heck, I'm surprised this wasn't a thing for years now!


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## the54thvoid (Jan 16, 2018)

To use AI to thwart game progression to increase spending on game items is surely illegal from a sales point unless it states on the games info that difficulty will be increased if no DLC items are purchased.


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## lZKoce (Jan 16, 2018)

There's no stopping the rape train, right? I can see a lot of unhappy parents that have 1-click-payment set up for everything. And their phones and PC's are in kids orbital.


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

Well, this is messed up, for sure. But games that adjust difficulty based on how you play aren't really new.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 16, 2018)

This has been going on for years. And people wonder why I rarely play games online anymore. When Blizzard's servers screwed up and borked over a ton of players in 2013, myself included, and then refused to set things right, I stopped playing online completely. Eff that. I play games to relax and enjoy, not to be frustrated, irritated and cheated.


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## RCoon (Jan 16, 2018)

I'm guessing people glossed over the images entirely. I for one read each and every one. The ones of most concern are the fact that the AI can discern whether a subject is female or not, and then subsequently learn their menstrual cycle based on the language they used throughout the month and then tailors that users experience in order to sell them more crap during that cycle. Also the use of wireless waves and telemetry to build a 3D map of the users entire surroundings aka their freaking house.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. This is too far.


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I'm guessing people glossed over the images entirely. I for one read each and every one. The ones of most concern are the fact that the AI can discern whether a subject is female or not, and then subsequently learn their menstrual cycle based on the language they used throughout the month and then tailors that users experience in order to sell them more crap during that cycle. Also the use of wireless waves and telemetry to build a 3D map of the users entire surroundings aka their freaking house.
> 
> I don't want to live on this planet anymore. This is too far.


It's creepy, but it's a friggin' game. You really, really, really don't have to play.


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## RCoon (Jan 16, 2018)

bug said:


> It's creepy, but it's a friggin' game. You really, really, really don't have to play.



I intend to boycott each and every game that implements these practices. The issue is, is the publisher/developer going to _tell _people this is in their game in order to make that choice?


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I intend to boycott each and every game that implements these practices. The issue is, is the publisher/developer going to _tell _people this is in their game in order to make that choice?


I'm guessing if one can't tell when they're selling their house to buy in-game stuff, one won't be saved by any disclosure from the developer's part. Or law.
And to answer your question more directly, there probably won't be any disclosure until the law requires one.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I intend to boycott each and every game that implements these practices. The issue is, is the publisher/developer going to _tell _people this is in their game in order to make that choice?



This will get hit hard by the EU Ban Hammer for certain.

This will probably start under the radar until we get a lootbox-ish shitstorm over it, and regulation will follow. It just has to, I cannot imagine this doesn't cross the line in every possible way.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I intend to boycott each and every game that implements these practices.


Agreed and way ahead of you.


bug said:


> there probably won't be any disclosure until the law requires one.


That can't happen soon enough.


Vayra86 said:


> This will get hit hard by the EU Ban Hammer for certain.


Betting you're right.


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## the54thvoid (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I'm guessing people glossed over the images entirely. I for one read each and every one. The ones of most concern are the fact that the AI can discern whether a subject is female or not, and then subsequently learn their menstrual cycle based on the language they used throughout the month and then tailors that users experience in order to sell them more crap during that cycle. Also the use of wireless waves and telemetry to build a 3D map of the users entire surroundings aka their freaking house.
> 
> I don't want to live on this planet anymore. This is too far.



+10 Healing Tampons.

But yeah.... Greed is God these days. FTW (F... This World).


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## GoldenX (Jan 16, 2018)

We have to put a brake to capitalism, or the next thing is oxygen taxes.


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## hhumas (Jan 16, 2018)

*same thing is implemented in dota via different sub categories .
         1- doing quest for a reward ( you keep on loosing games)
         2-In game loot boxes opening for a better reward .  if its your first purchase you will get a rare or extremely rare reward so to encourage player to buy more  . If you are regular buyer then you have like 0.01% chance of getting rare reward .
        3-Match making . if you want to win they will add you with noob player match finding pool . so that you keep finding matches and keep playing in the greed of winning matches .
        4- the players who are winning will be added in the player who are already winning .

and so much more shit is going on with dota 2. i have discussed these things with other dota players on the forum . everyone has same postive response  . steam /valve they are fkers . how much money they have earned from dota only . but match making is still piece of shit .*


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> We have to put a brake to capitalism, or the next thing is oxygen taxes.


That's why we have governments in place. They're supposed to set to rules of the game (and, very important, stay out of the game itself). So the next time you think you have a problem with capitalism, maybe you should look at your government first.


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## btarunr (Jan 16, 2018)

bug said:


> That's why we have governments in place. They're supposed to set to rules of the game (and, very important, stay out of the game itself).



How's that net-neutrality thing going?


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## _JP_ (Jan 16, 2018)

As with every implementation of its kind, there will be exploits for this, ways of obfuscating and play with the variables. 
AI is as smart as the ones coding it, so there will always be a way around.
Of course the best way is to not buy/download the game to start with.
As of this moment, no publisher with a released game that incorporates some sort of "loot" based on chance, is exempt from guilt over implementing some sort or variety of an algorithm like this. This is just an enhanced version of what's already on offer today.


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## R-T-B (Jan 16, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> We have to put a brake to capitalism, or the next thing is oxygen taxes.



Flashback to Rapture...  I think you might be going a bit far there.

Not that this doesn't cross the line in every conceivable way, because it does.


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

btarunr said:


> How's that net-neutrality thing going?


Did you notice the "supposed" thing in my post? Without proper scrutiny, nobody does their intended job. An unfortunate trait of human beings


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 16, 2018)

bug said:


> Did you notice the "supposed" thing in my post? Without proper scrutiny, nobody does their intended job. An unfortunate trait of human beings


Rubbish, I need no supervision at all and I get things gone the right way and on schedule most of the time.


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## DRDNA (Jan 16, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> We have to put a brake to capitalism, or the next thing is oxygen taxes.





R-T-B said:


> Flashback to Rapture...  I think you might be going a bit far there.
> 
> Not that this doesn't cross the line in every conceivable way, because it does.


Well in New York you can no longer get free AIR for your wheels (tires)! You have to pay for it, shit now the Air dispensers even have credit card slots! Oh yeah and the carbon Tax is close too.


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## the54thvoid (Jan 16, 2018)

DRDNA said:


> Well in New York you can no longer get free AIR for your wheels (tires)! You have to pay for it, shit now the Air dispensers even have credit card slots!



You're kinda paying for the air pump and it's initial instal costs.  You want free air, by a mobile one powered from a car socket.


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## dj-electric (Jan 16, 2018)

.....

UT99  anyone?


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## Konceptz (Jan 16, 2018)

"names redacted" lol thats an Anthem screenshot.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Jan 16, 2018)

O_O


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I'm guessing people glossed over the images entirely. I for one read each and every one. The ones of most concern are the fact that the AI can discern whether a subject is female or not, and then subsequently learn their menstrual cycle based on the language they used throughout the month and then tailors that users experience in order to sell them more crap during that cycle. Also the use of wireless waves and telemetry to build a 3D map of the users entire surroundings aka their freaking house.
> 
> I don't want to live on this planet anymore. This is too far.


I'm curious how this works. Is it pulling this from a console/PC's WIFI chip? Does all this require hardware other then the initial computer? The fact these games are figuring out people's personal lives is just.....sickening. It's freaking me out. And people will willingly purchase this, or unwillingly, because you KNOW they will never disclose any of this. 

This is also why I am done with modern gaming. These pushes for intense monitization of every part of a game is ruining the industry. Once all the dedicated gamers stop buying this trash, it will only take a single misstep for us to be back in 1983 all over again.


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## RCoon (Jan 16, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> I'm curious how this works. Is it pulling this from a console/PC's WIFI chip? Does all this require hardware other then the initial computer? The fact these games are figuring out people's personal lives is just.....sickening. It's freaking me out. And people will willingly purchase this, or unwillingly, because you KNOW they will never disclose any of this.
> 
> This is also why I am done with modern gaming. These pushes for intense monitization of every part of a game is ruining the industry. Once all the dedicated gamers stop buying this trash, it will only take a single misstep for us to be back in 1983 all over again.



The use case is mobile phones, and yes, they're able to acces the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth radio etc in order to do said mapping. They're also using the sensors to detect the phones elevation to map out chairs/floors etc.


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## Katanai (Jan 16, 2018)

Parts of this are already implemented in "f2p" games. I will give you just one example: If you don't play dota 2 for a long time when you come back to it, after the first match you will "win" an item. If you play normally getting an item is very rare and far between but it happens each time after a long break. This is just a small example how the reward system is being manipulated for a specific goal: to make a player come back to the game. Now, if this happens in this instance then who knows what else is being done behind the scenes for similar purposes? So the article here presents maybe an extreme case but parts of it are already true...


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## yogurt_21 (Jan 16, 2018)

Graphics cards prices through the roof, games trying to manipulate and spy on you, Memory prices up, massive exploits in the cpu microcode...

what a great year for gaming this is going to be


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

yogurt_21 said:


> Graphics cards prices through the roof, games trying to manipulate and spy on you, Memory prices up, massive exploits in the cpu microcode...
> 
> what a great year for gaming this is going to be


It's almost as if someone's trying to herd us towards consoles which are closed system by design


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## Steevo (Jan 16, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It was only a matter of time before "telemetry" met "free to play," and had this as its baby.



I love the use of words to obfuscate the meaning as if no one will understand the simple fact, that if you aren't (and sometimes are) paying you aren't the customer, you are the product. Facebook, and almost all other "free" or "freemium" apps are underhandedly this way. I got my woman an Ipad and she is playing sims on it, but apparently you can't play without an internet connection, which is wierd since once you start you can shut down the connection and it still works fine, and all the rendering and calculations are taking place client side, so the server side is just to log data.


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## rruff (Jan 16, 2018)

RCoon said:


> I don't want to live on this planet anymore. This is too far.



Me neither. And this is not just games, and it isn't just product marketing. All electronic traffic is being mined and analyzed. If anyone is surprised by how much info can be gleamed from how you play a game, imagine what can be learned from your Facebook activity, internet searches/posting/buying, cell activity, etc. 

It isn't just for sales. It's knowing exactly what button to push to get you to respond in the desired fashion. That's *power*, baby!



_JP_ said:


> AI is as smart as the ones coding it, so there will always be a way around.



Not so. On narrowly defined tasks, AI has been smarter than humans for decades. Soon they will be smarter at everything.


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## HTC (Jan 16, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> This has been going on for years. And people wonder why I rarely play games online anymore. *When Blizzard's servers screwed up and borked over a ton of players in 2013*, myself included, and then refused to set things right, I stopped playing online completely. Eff that. I play games to relax and enjoy, not to be frustrated, irritated and cheated.



You're referring to the time when they changed the server the chars belonged to, right? I was affected by that as well, with my Wizard suddenly belonging to the America's server ...

Then they screwed me over again, back in 2016, when they banned me permanently, accusing me of using "automated programs". 1st they tell me to check my PC for viruses but then deny me the chance to *try to clear my name*, and i won't stand for that, so i banned them: destroyed every single Bizzard title i had, including the authenticator.

Then, a few months later, they had the gall to email me about a new game they were launching ... so i said "what was on my mind" and told them *never* to contact me again!


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## Gasaraki (Jan 16, 2018)

bug said:


> That's why we have governments in place. They're supposed to set to rules of the game (and, very important, stay out of the game itself). So the next time you think you have a problem with capitalism, maybe you should look at your government first.



This stops working when corporations are considered "people" and have the same rights as a living person. They also have unlimited resources to bribe politicians and have lobbyists working with government. 

How can the government function when people vote in politicians that are systematically weakening the government from within. For example the FCC just disbanded Net Neutrality but they also neutered themselves by saying they can't regulate this anymore. It's scorched earth policy.


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## Totally (Jan 16, 2018)

bug said:


> Well, this is messed up, for sure. But games that adjust difficulty based on how you play aren't really new.


Really diffuclty that changes on based how much you spend with where you live and how much you make factored in that amount?


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## bug (Jan 16, 2018)

Gasaraki said:


> This stops working when corporations are considered "people" and have the same rights as a living person. They also have unlimited resources to bribe politicians and have lobbyists working with government.
> 
> How can the government function when people vote in politicians that are systematically weakening the government from within. For example the FCC just disbanded Net Neutrality but they also neutered themselves by saying they can't regulate this anymore. It's scorched earth policy.



System can be gamed. What else is new?


Totally said:


> Really diffuclty that changes on based how much you spend with where you live and how much you make factored in that amount?


I'm not sure what's used in the backend (hint: that's why the push for MMOs - data can be safely mined on the server and the user can do little about it), but as I said, games adjusting to the player are nothing new. Hell, even irl team lineups are determined by the opponent's lineup, so video games didn't even invent this.


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## skates (Jan 16, 2018)

Katanai said:


> Parts of this are already implemented in "f2p" games. I will give you just one example: If you don't play dota 2 for a long time when you come back to it, after the first match you will "win" an item. If you play normally getting an item is very rare and far between but it happens each time after a long break. This is just a small example how the reward system is being manipulated for a specific goal: to make a player come back to the game. Now, if this happens in this instance then who knows what else is being done behind the scenes for similar purposes? So the article here presents maybe an extreme case but parts of it are already true...


I agree.  You don't need AI to get the same results when you can manipulate RNG based on user analytics like last logon and in-game data.  You can get the same results of pushing a player to purchase more if they have a good K/D and tend to utilize micro transactions.  In this case it's a simple matter of putting that player on losing teams.

I played world of tanks, a F2P game for quite a while when it launched.  It was uncanny how you could play all night and lose nearly every game, then if you took a break for a few days you could win nearly every game.  Since they rely on people buying premium tanks or gold to help grind faster, I always felt they pushed you down a road of misery and frustration until you gave in and bought some gold.  One thing was for sure, once you bought a premium tank, the next couple of days using it was glorious, then slowly but surly it felt like every shot thereafter was a miss or bounce.

Same thing.


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## GoldenX (Jan 16, 2018)

skates said:


> I agree.  You don't need AI to get the same results when you can manipulate RNG based on user analytics like last logon and in-game data.  You can get the same results of pushing a player to purchase more if they have a good K/D and tend to utilize micro transactions.  In this case it's a simple matter of putting that player on losing teams.
> 
> I played world of tanks, a F2P game for quite a while when it launched.  It was uncanny how you could play all night and lose nearly every game, then if you took a break for a few days you could win nearly every game.  Since they rely on people buying premium tanks or gold to help grind faster, I always felt they pushed you down a road of misery and frustration until you gave in and bought some gold.  One thing was for sure, once you bought a premium tank, the next couple of days using it was glorious, then slowly but surly it felt like every shot thereafter was a miss or bounce.
> 
> Same thing.



Play something more realistic like War Thunder, the only premium advantage is faster grinding, only "needed" for the last tanks/planes.


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## skates (Jan 17, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Play something more realistic like War Thunder, the only premium advantage is faster grinding, only "needed" for the last tanks/planes.


Yeah, I should pick that up.  I played it briefly, but at that time they didn't have tanks, just the planes.


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## xkm1948 (Jan 17, 2018)

This is really nothing comparing to the subtle influnce done by all major search engines / social media groups / MSM outlets. A small set of people controling the majority of population, while makes the majority feels like they have a say in it is the most successful form of absolute control. The illusion of choices is enough to persuade people to accept this dystopian situation.


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## GoldenX (Jan 17, 2018)

Orwell and Huxley would be proud.


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## DimBo (Jan 18, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Play something more realistic like War Thunder, the only premium advantage is faster grinding, only "needed" for the last tanks/planes.


Just wanted say a couple of things about WarThunder specifically (I played WT for several years mostly because my friends are addicted to this sh*t and can't pull them out of it) :
1) It is not realistic at all.
2) Playing at high tiers is pay-to-win. If you won't spend A LOT of money on crews and modules you're going to be an easy kill for those who do.
3) I strongly suspect that WT already has a system like the one described in the slides (albeit more primitive). Their CEO himself confessed that they have means to adjust ricochet and critical hit probabilities per player account.
To put it briefly: stay away from WarThunder - it is the same crap as the other F2P games.


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## Prince Valiant (Jan 18, 2018)

dj-electric said:


> .....
> 
> UT99  anyone?


I still play '04 regularly . Don't have to worry about garbage like this .


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## GoldenX (Jan 18, 2018)

DimBo said:


> Just wanted say a couple of things about WarThunder specifically (I played WT for several years mostly because my friends are addicted to this sh*t and can't pull them out of it) :
> 1) It is not realistic at all.
> 2) Playing at high tiers is pay-to-win. If you won't spend A LOT of money on crews and modules you're going to be an easy kill for those who do.
> 3) I strongly suspect that WT already has a system like the one described in the slides (albeit more primitive). Their CEO himself confessed that they have means to adjust ricochet and critical hit probabilities per player account.
> To put it briefly: stay away from WarThunder - it is the same crap as the other F2P games.



As I usually just play Japanese planes, I don't get those problems (you don't BnZ or head-on with a Zero, so hitting critical components is less important), but those are really valid points. Can't testify for the Pay to Win, as a jap pilot, I'm always at a disadvantage.

Maybe we should just go back to the olde CS days.


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## Divide Overflow (Jan 18, 2018)

So we're actively teaching AIs to enslave us?  
What won't humans do for a quick buck!


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## BiggieShady (Jan 19, 2018)

Divide Overflow said:


> So we're actively teaching AIs to enslave us?
> What won't humans do for a quick buck!


Yes ... and the quick buck here is in detecting big spenders ... mapping the house to see how much space there is, detecting the squeaking of the chair to detect income level (non squeaky chair is an expensive chair) ... next it'll be voice recognition trying to catch you speaking about your paycheck


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## GoldenX (Jan 19, 2018)

BiggieShady said:


> Yes ... and the quick buck here is in detecting big spenders ... mapping the house to see how much space there is, detecting the squeaking of the chair to detect income level (non squeaky chair is an expensive chair) ... next it'll be voice recognition trying to catch you speaking about your paycheck


My chair is VERY squeaky, and I have never spend a single penny on micro-transactions or DLC, or legal purch... ejem. Do I qualify?


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## BiggieShady (Jan 19, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> My chair is VERY squeaky, and I have never spend a single penny on micro-transactions or DLC, or legal purch... ejem. Do I qualify?


Sure, you qualify for an endless grind in pve and being a cannon fodder for pay2winners in pvp ...


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## GoldenX (Jan 19, 2018)

BiggieShady said:


> Sure, you qualify for an endless grind in pve and being a cannon fodder for pay2winners in pvp ...


That's why I love emulators and single player games.


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## Gregsm (Jan 19, 2018)

Some mention EA, but it seems related
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/a...-encourages-players-to-buy-microtransactions/


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## qubit (Jan 20, 2018)

I've just read some of those slides and this sounds nasty, real nasty. I won't touch a game with this crap in it, no matter how good it looks.

One of the first slides describes how it constantly leads you on into thinking you're gonna win by buying something, but all it actually does is use bait and switch to frustrate the player into spending more. Fucking shysters. Gamers are nothing more than cows to be milked at every opportunity. There's nothing at all about providing any kind of user satisfaction there at all. Dystopian it is.


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## Captain_Tom (Jan 22, 2018)

lZKoce said:


> There's no stopping the rape train, right? I can see a lot of unhappy parents that have 1-click-payment set up for everything. And their phones and PC's are in kids orbital.



Well, one thing that could stop this train is continued innovation and competition from "Indie" developers.


I would say we are only about 5 years from Indie devs having easy access to the AAA graphics we have now.  Once the tools exist for a hobbyist to make the equivalent of a full Assassin's Creed game by themselves in a basement, they will make it so consumers can ignore the transaction-filled AAA games.

Sure the graphics won't be as good, the voice acting will be average most of the time, and there will be more bugs than usual...  But the games will be much more creative, inexpensive, and built with the mindset of "gameplay comes first."


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

What a great read...some games have already some similar system implemented and by the looks of it it's only gonna get worse. It's sad to see that the AI is mostly used to manipulate and rip off people atm. At some point when the AI will be smart enough...oh will see what happens then


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> What a great read...some games have already some similar system implemented and by the looks of it it's only gonna get worse. It's sad to see that the AI is mostly used to manipulate and rip off people atm. At some point when the AI will be smart enough...oh will see what happens then


Nobody's ripping you off. You surrender your credit card voluntarily for each transaction.


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

bug said:


> Nobody's ripping you off. You surrender your credit card voluntarily for each transaction.


First I wasn't talking about me, second manipulating people into doing this it's a rip off as the game will not work "normal" but towards a purpose not revealed to the customer from the start...let me give you a few examples: religion, politics, marketing these "tools" are specifically designed and used (USUALLY,NOT ALL THE TIME) to manipulate people and not for a greater good (PERSONAL OPINION)


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> First I wasn't talking about me, second manipulating people into doing this it's a rip off as the game will not work "normal" but towards a purpose not revealed to the customer from the start...let me give you a few examples: religion, politics, marketing these "tools" are specifically designed and used (USUALLY,NOT ALL THE TIME) to manipulate people and not for a greater good (PERSONAL OPINION)


Yeah, well, games have been adapted their response to the player's gameplay since the days of the scrolling shooters where you could learn where each and every enemy spawned.
At the same time, I'm having a hard time understanding where's the rip-off when the player knowingly chooses to play a microtransactions enabled game. MTXs are there to sell, that's the whole point.


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

bug said:


> Yeah, well, games have been adapted their response to the player's gameplay since the days of the scrolling shooters where you could learn where each and every enemy spawned.
> At the same time, I'm having a hard time understanding where's the rip-off when the player knowingly chooses to play a microtransactions enabled game. MTXs are there to sell, that's the whole point.


Ok I understand, but if this is the case why do they need to hide all this stuff, why aren't they open about it and specify from the begging that this is going to happen when you play this game?
Are you ok with this, don't you find anything wrong with it?


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> Ok I understand, but if this is the case why do they need to hide all this stuff, why aren't they open about it and specify from the begging that this is going to happen when you play this game?
> Are you ok with this, don't you find anything wrong with it?


Well, I'm torn, atm. I mean, this right here is only a proof of concept. Whatever kind of company you're running, it's your duty to analyze your revenue model from time to time. Do I want to see this implemented in games? No, not in this form. But I don't play mtx enabled game much and even if I do, I stay away from pay2win titles. So if someone knowingly plays pay2win, then I don't see the grounds for them crying about the game making them, you know, pay. The big no-no is when this is applied to kids games.

In short, I see no reason to take out the pitchforks just yet. Just to cautiously move forward.


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

bug said:


> So if someone knowingly plays pay2win


That's the whole point of this thing...to make even the intelligent grown ups to fall in this trap because if you're not a hardcore gamer (even some of those fall into this) this system is will make it as difficult as possible for them to spot that they're scammed...example fake news on social media to manipulate you into voting (or not) for a specific candidate...this is real and it's happening now people need to be made aware if they're not smart enough to figure this out themselves 

That's why these things need to be exposed so everybody can see...utmost respect for the person that risked to get this out!!!


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> That's the whole point of this thing...to make even the intelligent grown ups to fall in this trap because if you're not a hardcore gamer (even some of those fall into this) this system is will make it as difficult as possible for them to spot that they're scammed...example fake news on social media to manipulate you into voting (or not) for a specific candidate...this is real and it's happening now people need to be made aware if they're not smart enough to figure this out themselves
> 
> That's why these things need to be exposed so everybody can see...utmost respect for the person that risked to get this out!!!


I disagree. Pay2win is just like gambling. You either control it or it controls you. If you're not level-headed enough to limit your spending, hopefully you're level headed enough to stay away.


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

bug said:


> I disagree. Pay2win is just like gambling. You either control it or it controls you. If you're not level-headed enough to limit your spending, hopefully you're level headed enough to stay away.


Ok I am really curious (maybe I've missed something, sorry if I did) is this system specifically designed for a game that has the label pay2win? Please en light me


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> Ok I am really curious (maybe I've missed something, sorry if I did) is this system specifically designed for a game that has the label pay2win? Please en light me


No game is labeled pay2win.
But this is all about making the game progressively harder in order to make you buy something that makes it easier again. The very definition of pay2win.


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

bug said:


> No game is labeled pay2win.
> But this is all about making the game progressively harder in order to make you buy something that makes it easier again. The very definition of pay2win.


There is no point in going forward with this as for you the one to blame would only be the player...


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> There is no point in going forward with this as for you the one to blame would only be the player...


Well, at least I made my point...


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## Liviu Cojocaru (Jan 23, 2018)

As stupid as it is, it is your point and I respect it


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## bug (Jan 23, 2018)

Liviu Cojocaru said:


> As stupid as it is, it is your point and I respect it


Please elaborate. Wth is your point and why is mine stupid?


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## Mescalamba (Jan 24, 2018)

dj-electric said:


> .....
> 
> UT99  anyone?



It had pretty deadly bots.  Especially if fine tuned by hand. But I suspect that wasnt your point. My fav game of probably all time I play (which is from 97). At least in FPS perspective.


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## HahTse (Feb 9, 2018)




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## DragonsBrain (Feb 10, 2018)

Way to blog out --Riot-- Games, there.  They'll never guess what's under that smaller-than-average black bar.


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