# no benifit to DDR3 over DDR2?



## trt740 (May 12, 2008)

Everything I read and I have read a bunch seems to indicate DDR3 systems ram has zero if any positive effect on systems performance, due to timing being lower and faster on DDR2. Also the price of DDR2 is much cheaper than DDR3 1600 to 1800, where you would see a slight improvement. I'm asking this because I have gone back and fourth about selling my Rampage and moving to a 790i board with DDR3, or p35/ x48 type of board with DDR3. Is this persepective correct and do you agree with what I have said above. If not correct my error. I cannot seem to wrap my mind around why DDR2 can keep up with DDR3. I think several forum members are wondering about this aswell.


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## Darknova (May 12, 2008)

Ok, I saw a review recently about a set of 2Ghz rather DDR3 at 7 timings, against the faster DDR2 (1200) at 5 timings.

the DDR3 was significantly faster, but not enough to offest the outrageous price difference. (£300 for 2Gb of DDR3 - £95 for 4 Gb of DDR2)

Yes, there is a performance difference over DDR2, but it's no where near enough to offset of the cost difference lol.


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## hv43082 (May 12, 2008)

I came to the same conclusion as you have.  Too little gain for too much money more.  I would hold out until the next socket from Intel come out before making the transition to DDR3 or at least until they become more affordable.


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## Morgoth (May 12, 2008)

ddr3 got trichannel  thats somthing that ddr2 doest have and never wil have


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## Darknova (May 12, 2008)

Morgoth said:


> ddr3 got trichannel  thats somthing that ddr2 doest have and never wil have



I thought that was a chipset thing, not a memory thing.


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## HTC (May 12, 2008)

trt740 said:


> Everything I read and I have read a bunch seems to indicate DDR3 systems ram has zero if any positive effect on systems performance, due to timing being lower and faster on DDR2. Also the price of DDR2 is much cheaper than DDR3 1600 to 1800, where you would see a slight improvement. I'm asking this because I have gone back and fourth about selling my Rampage and moving to a 790i board with DDR3, or p35/ x48 type of board with DDR3. Is this persepective correct and do you agree with what I have said above. If not correct my error. I cannot seem to wrap my mind around why DDR2 can keep up with DDR3. I think several forum members are wondering about this aswell.



The only advantage of DDR3 over DDR2 is the lower voltage except those speedy RAM modules such as 1800, 2000 and such where DDR3 has an advantage, as you said.

If they manage to make these same modules @ lower latencies, then yes otherwise, i don't think it's worth it, IMO.


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## Morgoth (May 12, 2008)

Darknova said:


> I thought that was a chipset thing, not a memory thing.



na its a memmory controler future


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## beyond_amusia (May 12, 2008)

Morgoth said:


> ddr3 got trichannel  thats somthing that ddr2 doest have and never wil have



That's only for when you get a DOA stick out of a set of 4, =P  lol.

So, um, when will quad channel arrive?


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## Darknova (May 12, 2008)

beyond_amusia said:


> That's only for when you get a DOA stick out of a set of 4, =P  lol.
> 
> So, um, when will quad channel arrive?



In Intel's new Server platform I believe


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## trt740 (May 12, 2008)

I saw a review with DDr2 at 1100 5 timing against a ddr3 board at 1333 7 timing and there was almost no benfit unlesss you lowered the ddr3 to tighter timing and dropped it's speeds and even then it's not much.


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## beyond_amusia (May 12, 2008)

Darknova said:


> In Intel's new Server platform I believe



  omg!!1!!2!!@!!!  lol.  They need to have it so each core as it's own bank of RAM, =)


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## Darknova (May 12, 2008)

trt740 said:


> I saw a review with DDr2 at 1100 5 timing against a ddr3 board at 1333 7 timing and there was almost no benfit unlesss you lowered the ddr3 to tighter timing and dropped it's speeds and even then it's not much.



It's the same as it was when DDR2 first came out. The first DDR2 was 400Mhz, same as the top end DDR was, and there was no benefit at all, in fact it performed worse because of higher timings.

But now, DDR has nothing on DDR2. The same will happen with DDR3, it's inevitable.


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## trt740 (May 12, 2008)

I'm still think I'm gonna sell my Ramage and get a 790i


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## Darknova (May 12, 2008)

trt740 said:


> I'm still think I'm gonna sell my Ramage and get a 790i



If you can afford a decent set of RAM, then I really would do it....but it's going to cost a bomb.


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## trt740 (May 12, 2008)

Well not really about 380.00 after rebates board and ram foe 790I EVGA and OCZ gold DDr2 1333 after combo deal . I would think 220.00 Rampage/Maxformula shipped would be possible, 100.00 for my DDR2 1200 and 50.00 for my DDR2 1066 should make me break even.


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## Darknova (May 12, 2008)

but, is that a 2Gb or 4Gb set?


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## trt740 (May 12, 2008)

Darknova said:


> but, is that a 2Gb or 4Gb set?



2gb 95.00 after a rebate and the motherboard is about 309.00 after a rebate plus 40.00 in discounts for the combo.


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## imperialreign (May 14, 2008)

DDR3 supports higher bandwidth so it can move more information at higher speeds - which is why the loose timings . . .

but, from what I've read here and there, and my experience mucking with it, it's capable of tighter timings over what it's rated for - granted, it's hard to hit similar timings to DDR2 without improving cooling to some degree, but when your running 1600MHz, 1800MHz, 2000MHz DRAM speeds . . .

but, price is kinda hit or miss - a lot of manufacturers are constantly offering rebates and incentives, and there are decent 2GB kits out there for less than $200; competing with some of the prices of high-end DDR2 kits; but yeah, it still is kinda expensive at this point.  Hopefully we'll see prices dropping rapidly by the end of the year . . . . <knocks on wood>


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## niko084 (May 14, 2008)

DDR3 is still working its way in.... It has a bit to go before its really worth it beyond the massive bandwidth. As far as your average user or gamer, its not worth anything yet... Give it another year or so it will start to come around.


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## imperialreign (May 14, 2008)

niko084 said:


> DDR3 is still working its way in.... It has a bit to go before its really worth it beyond the massive bandwidth. As far as your average user or gamer, its not worth anything yet... Give it another year or so it will start to come around.



and hopefully by then, all the 1337 high-end kits will have dropped to more reasonable prices.  The set I bought was on par with high-end DDR2 kits, and is still decent as far as DDR3 goes, but screw $500+ for 2GB.


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## magibeg (May 14, 2008)

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=25680&vpn=OCZ3P16002GK&manufacture=OCZ Technology

prices don't seem to be tooo bad.


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## niko084 (May 14, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> and hopefully by then, all the 1337 high-end kits will have dropped to more reasonable prices.  The set I bought was on par with high-end DDR2 kits, and is still decent as far as DDR3 goes, but screw $500+ for 2GB.



Well thats exactly the other side of that... It will come down, like I said give it a year, timings will come down, triple channel will be supported, and the price will drop some.


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## Mussels (May 14, 2008)

triple channel on nehalem based systems is what will make DDR3 shine.

Right now there is no gain, but adding another channel is a BIG boost to bandwidth, and by the time nehalem is worth moving to, the ram kits will be cheaper too. 6GB of ram sounds nice to me


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## niko084 (May 14, 2008)

Mussels said:


> triple channel on nehalem based systems is what will make DDR3 shine.
> 
> Right now there is no gain, but adding another channel is a BIG boost to bandwidth, and by the time nehalem is worth moving to, the ram kits will be cheaper too. 6GB of ram sounds nice to me



Ya its pretty nice, I just tossed together a machine today with 8gb of ram, raid 0+1, and a q6700, on xp x64 with a FX3500, thing flys.


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## Recoba (May 14, 2008)

As an OCer, DDR3 really a better choice than DDR2. I used APACER DDR3 PC14400. these things have a good range 4 me to OC FSB


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## HTC (May 14, 2008)

Recoba said:


> As an OCer, DDR3 really a better choice than DDR2. I used APACER DDR3 PC14400. these things have a good range 4 me to OC FSB



That may be but it costs 3 arms and 4 legs to buy that for a little improvement on DDR2.

If they manage to reduce the latencies on DDR3, it will be a whole new ball game.


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## Mussels (May 14, 2008)

Yeah it all comes down to price vs performance - i got 4GB of DDR2 1.1GHz for $200, about 4 months ago. its cheaper now. DDR3 isnt that cheap, and while you can OC to a higher MHz value, 550FSB (1:1) is a great cap for me lol 

Tri-channel on next gen DDR3 is where its at. bring on nehalem!


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## philbrown23 (May 14, 2008)

you can get OCZ gold for $90 for a 2gb kit. and the bandwidth of ddr3 is much faster than ddr2 at stock and overclocked speeds. yes the timings are looser on ddr3 but thats just the manufacturers specs my ocz gold is rated @ 1333mhz @ cl9-9-9-24 but I can run them @ 1333mhz @cl8-6-6-18


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## Wile E (May 14, 2008)

Morgoth said:


> na its a memmory controler future



Which is in the chipset on Intels currently. So it *is* a chipset thing.



Darknova said:


> In Intel's new Server platform I believe


Current server chipsets already support it, albeit with FB-DIMMS.


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## Mussels (May 14, 2008)

yeah its definately getting there 

Now i wonder... will we start seeing kits with 3 modules?


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## laszlo (May 14, 2008)

DDR can use and reach 95% of theoretic bandwith instead DDR2 -75% and this  is valable  when you compare DDR3 with DDR2 ....

so you get higher  freqv. but the same or lower bandwith ... not to mention the timmings


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## Wile E (May 14, 2008)

laszlo said:


> DDR can use and reach 95% of theoretic bandwith instead DDR2 -75% and this  is valable  when you compare DDR3 with DDR2 ....
> 
> so you get higher  freqv. but the same or lower bandwith ... not to mention the timmings


Yet, high quality DDR2 outperforms all DDR1.


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## Temps_Riising (May 14, 2008)

I can only speak from my own personal experiences, I have found in most things, DDR3 to be a fair bit faster than DDR2, I had some good quality super talent DDR2 capable of 1400mhz at 5-5-5-18 and when compared with some OCZ DDR3 rated at 1333mhz but capable of 1800mhz at 7-7-7-20 there was a fair difference in almost all benchmarks that I tried and the price difference in the UK between the high end DDR2 and the OCZ DDR3 was £20 only, dont know what those price differences are in the US though.

I would be the first to admit though, that DDR3's talents wont be fully shown until we get more 1600mhz FSB chips to go in those 1600mhz boards, did I find it worth it?  well yes if the price difference as always isnt too great and it's not if you shop around!


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## DarkMatter (May 14, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Yet, high quality DDR2 outperforms all DDR1.



Totally agree with what you said. Quality DDR3 already outperforms DDR2, the problem clearly is in the chipset, as it happened with DDR2. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there are some high frequency (1800+) CAS 6/7 DDR3 modules out there. I think some people are forgeting that latencies are given in period numbers (2T, 4T, 8T). Since DDR3 frecuency is double that of DDR2 the latency is a half, even if it takes more cycles. DDR3 memory is faster, but since chipsets can't handle it well, it's not worth the money for the little improvement you get, today. You do get some improvement, though, and this is new and good, DDR2 latencies were bigger comparatively and DDR was better. DDR3 at launch is better than what DDR2 was, we just need that chipset that makes it shine.

@Laszlo 

You are right in that probably DDR3 will use less percentage of its max bandwidth than DDR2, because PCs are not using all the bandwidth that DDR2 has to offer, but not because the memory. DDR2 beyond 800 Mhz offers low improvements on performance by itself, you need faster ones to be able to overclock the system, but that's it, there's no improvement in the memory. Not near as big as it was in DDR times, not near the percentage difference in memory: DDR2 800 vs 1200, that's +50%, you get 5-10% improvement in some aplications, in others anything. We don't really need faster memory modules, we need faster memory subsystems, and that means a lot better memory controlers than what we have today. Look at the ratio between FSB and memory: 800Mhz FSB - 400 Mhz DDR, 1333 FSB - 800 DDR2, 1600 FSB - 1600 DDR3. I expect "efficiency" (as percentage of bandwidth used) to be worse with DDR3 until Nehalem ships, or until AMD launches a fast CPU again. Tri channel could help, but it could even make it worse. The "efficiency", not performance. Performance would increase due to one more available module, but not by that 50% boost the bandwidth will get.

Overall DDR3 is better than DDR2 in many other things that make it a bit faster than waht we would expect from pure bandwidth comparison. No doubt it's the future and as I said I think it has started better than DDR2. It's just that PCs don't fully utilize it. There's no point in spending double the money or more to get a little improvement. Except if you are a benchmark bitch of course, then everything is fair as in love and war. 

@Temps_Riising

You were lucky if you got DDR3 at only 20 bucks more. Here, and I'm sure it's the case in the rest of the world as well, DDR3 is 2-3 times more expensive than DDR2.

EDIT: Ooop! You were right. I will try to save my ass and rectify. 2GB quality DDR3 kits are around 50€ more than faster DDR2 kits now. That's definately worth it if you are going to build a new system IMO. But I swear prices were at around 300€ for similar kits last time I checked, a month ago, maybe it was a bit more. Indeed some modules are still at that prices, because (r)etailers bought them for that price and can't sell them at a loss. That's funny about this industry, it moves so fast that some new (and better) parts are way cheaper than old ones because they ship before the retailers could get rid of the old ones. It's funny now that I don't work on that, I'm glad I quited. It must be a headache right now for them making a buy decision. It was at the time I worked on that, and it wasn't nearly as fast as it is today...


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## vega22 (May 14, 2008)

Mussels said:


> triple channel on nehalem based systems is what will make DDR3 shine.
> 
> Right now there is no gain, but adding another channel is a BIG boost to bandwidth, and by the time nehalem is worth moving to, the ram kits will be cheaper too. 6GB of ram sounds nice to me




thats what im thinking too 

same with p45/x48??? why bother when they give little gains over the older chipsets for the cost and will be obsolete in months


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## EarlZ (May 14, 2008)

Recoba said:


> As an OCer, DDR3 really a better choice than DDR2. I used APACER DDR3 PC14400. these things have a good range 4 me to OC FSB



Yes it is better if you only look at the fancy fsb numbers and ignore the performance gains.


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## DarkMatter (May 14, 2008)

This might be useful:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ram-speed-tests,1807.html

Proves, more or less, the same that I said above. Faster memory yields low gains nowadays. Best bang for the buck is lower-end memory not even mainstream as in CPU/GPU. Slower memory might hold back your system, but not to the point where it stops being cost effective. Spending the money you save on a faster CPU or GPU will give you a lot better results.

In the high-end, this may or may not be the case. I don't know, IMO if you are building a new high-end rig take fast memory, better if it's DDR3. It doesn't make sense now, it would in the future. If you already have fast DDR2 keep it. It's a matter of the difference between what they will pay for your DDR2 and the price you are paying for DDR3, today or in the future. I think in the future difference is going to be smaller, so it's better to stay DDR2.


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## Mussels (May 14, 2008)

hell i'm on generic cheapass ram that costs around $40 a gig, and it OC's like mad 

Its not that DDR3 prices are too excessive, its just that DDR2 prices plummeted to very low levels.


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## laszlo (May 14, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> @Laszlo
> 
> You are right in that probably DDR3 will use less percentage of its max bandwidth than DDR2, because PCs are not using all the bandwidth that DDR2 has to offer, but not because the memory. DDR2 beyond 800 Mhz offers low improvements on performance by itself, you need faster ones to be able to overclock the system, but that's it, there's no improvement in the memory. Not near as big as it was in DDR times, not near the percentage difference in memory: DDR2 800 vs 1200, that's +50%, you get 5-10% improvement in some aplications, in others anything. We don't really need faster memory modules, we need faster memory subsystems, and that means a lot better memory controlers than what we have today. Look at the ratio between FSB and memory: 800Mhz FSB - 400 Mhz DDR, 1333 FSB - 800 DDR2, 1600 FSB - 1600 DDR3. I expect "efficiency" (as percentage of bandwidth used) to be worse with DDR3 until Nehalem ships, or until AMD launches a fast CPU again. Tri channel could help, but it could even make it worse. The "efficiency", not performance. Performance would increase due to one more available module, but not by that 50% boost the bandwidth will get.
> 
> ...


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## trt740 (May 14, 2008)

Well I was gonna buy a EVGA 790i board for the unlinked memory and DDr3 but after lengthy research the 790i boards have not just a little corruption trouble it appears out of control. I will take my slower ram over a corruption problem anyday. I was gonna move to SLI and i'm still investigation but in Evga forum there are page after page of corruption reports. I might just get a X38/x48 DDr3 board or keep what I have. Something thats fast but doesn't work right for the price the 790i board go for is crazy. I think this is why MSI hasn't relesed their 790I board.


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## Temps_Riising (May 14, 2008)

@Temps_Riising

_"You were lucky if you got DDR3 at only 20 bucks more. Here, and I'm sure it's the case in the rest of the world as well, DDR3 is 2-3 times more expensive than DDR2"._

I noticed you noticed that prices have come down, they certainly have in the Uk if people know where to look, I did say £20 not $20 so that would equate to $40.....examples are here:

My DDR3....................of course there is a lot cheaper DDR3 than this but......

http://www.dabs.com/productview.asp...onKey=11150,4294953619,4294953665&AddReview=1

I truly can get 1800mhz speeds out of this

Top end DDR2..........................

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(15991)OCZ-2GB-Kit-2x1024-Flex-XLC-DDR2-PC9200-1150Mhz.aspx

You will see from that that the DDR2 is more expensive, of course had I not been lazy and shopped around a little I could probably find the flex for cheaper, but I am sure that would apply to the DDR3 also.


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## Saakki (May 14, 2008)

soo good buy is that u buy mobo with ddr3 support and buy ddr3 later when prices come down


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## Temps_Riising (May 14, 2008)

Saakki said:


> soo good buy is that u buy mobo with ddr3 support and buy ddr3 later when prices come down



I think so especially if you can get a good x38 that will support 1600FSB and has slots for both DDR2 and DDR3, I think at least Gigabyte do one.


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## Solaris17 (May 14, 2008)

beyond_amusia said:


> That's only for when you get a DOA stick out of a set of 4, =P  lol.
> 
> So, um, when will quad channel arrive?



as far as i know quad channel ram has already been around but its a server board thing i think i remember dan talking about it once


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## imperialreign (May 14, 2008)

Temps_Riising said:


> I think so especially if you can get a good x38 that will support 1600FSB and has slots for both DDR2 and DDR3, I think at least Gigabyte do one.



hmmm . . . not sure about that . . . I haven't seen a board yet that supports both DDR2 _and_ ddr3


the X38/X48 chipsets do support either interface, but the DIMM slots aren't compatible . . . although, if a manufacturer could produce a board that was DIMM compatible, they'd be catering to both markets, and I'm sure would make a fairly decent penny off of it.


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## Dia01 (May 14, 2008)

I took the plunge to DDR3 and at the moment quite happy with the results.  Still playing around but at the moment running linked 1:1 @ 1333FSB and 100% stable 10hrs orthos and still going.  I did have some SLI OCZ RAM 1066 and just seemed to have endless troubles.  My current 4GB of DDR3 sticks runs at less voltage opposed to the old sticks and are a little faster although the timings are looser.  I want to get these up to 1600 as per their rating and see how they handle.  As far as corruption, had alot of trouble with the Striker II 790i unable to boot into windows getting BSOD every time, removed 2GB of RAM, booted up, applied the windows vista 4GB fix, running sweet.


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## Temps_Riising (May 15, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> hmmm . . . not sure about that . . . I haven't seen a board yet that supports both DDR2 _and_ ddr3
> 
> 
> the X38/X48 chipsets do support either interface, but the DIMM slots aren't compatible . . . although, if a manufacturer could produce a board that was DIMM compatible, they'd be catering to both markets, and I'm sure would make a fairly decent penny off of it.



Actually gigabyte have had dual DDR2 and DDR3 boards available for a while now, even in P35 guise.....take a look here..........

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/NewTech/2006_motherboard_newtech/article_09_p35c.htm


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## Saakki (May 15, 2008)

Temps_Riising said:


> Actually gigabyte have had dual DDR2 and DDR3 boards available for a while now, even in P35 guise.....take a look here..........
> 
> http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/NewTech/2006_motherboard_newtech/article_09_p35c.htm



this Asus P5K S775 IP35 DDR2 new " Bearlake" edition supports DDR3 and 1333FSB . 91 euros at Finnish netstore.

http://www.jimmspc.fi/tuote/P5K?classid=3&groupid=102&subgroup=10252


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## largon (May 15, 2008)

There's no technical reason why DDR2 & 3 couldn't be pin-2-pin compatible... Back when JEDEC was finishing the spec AMD wanted DDR2 & 3 to be pin compatible, but Intel overran them and forced DDR3 to use different pin-out. Intel claimed pin-compatibility would confuse customers - but ofcourse, that was just load of BS. _In reality_ Intel obviously wanted to seperate DDR2 and DDR3 motherboards so that they'd be able to sell more chipsets AND hurt AMD by making their DDR3-transition more difficult. K10 _could_ have had DDR2 & DDR3 support from the day it launched...


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## Solaris17 (May 15, 2008)

absolutely other than clock sopeeds it would work absolutely fine.


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## trt740 (May 15, 2008)

*here is a msi x48c that does both*



imperialreign said:


> hmmm . . . not sure about that . . . I haven't seen a board yet that supports both DDR2 _and_ ddr3
> 
> 
> the X38/X48 chipsets do support either interface, but the DIMM slots aren't compatible . . . although, if a manufacturer could produce a board that was DIMM compatible, they'd be catering to both markets, and I'm sure would make a fairly decent penny off of it.



ddr3 and ddr2 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130157


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