# What are your opinions on PSUs with zero-rpm fan features?



## stromtroeper (Oct 4, 2022)

I remember reading a Techpowerup review where the reviewer said he did not like those types of PSUs at all, I don't quite remember why...

My reason for the question is:
I have a low power GT1030 with a passive heatsink (I despise any type of fan noise). I bought a high end Corsair platinum PSU 750W that I know from reviews has zero-rpm fan below 400W power draw. So my system was operating noise free for 5 years until the PSU suddenly died.

I am wondering if it died because it operated without the aid of the cooling fan...(I checked and found not a spec of dust inside PSU)
However I sent it to Corsair for RMA and they sent me a new one within days (10 year warranty)

Thoughts?


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## Calenhad (Oct 4, 2022)

The fan is not only activated by power draw, but also temperature. I like zero rpm fan modes. And have not seen any failures I would attribute to this feature.

The previous faulty PSU I had was a DOA Corsair HX1000 where the fan had a clicking noise. So the zero rpm feature hid the problem for a couple weeks


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## thebluebumblebee (Oct 4, 2022)

Welcome to TPU!


stromtroeper said:


> I am wondering if it died because it operated without the aid of the cooling fan


Nope.  If you need more info:


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 4, 2022)

You cannot conclusively prove your PSU failure was due to it being fanless. Even if you do proper PSU breakdown and find dead component(s), you can only suppose higher operating temperatures accelerated their demise, but again, this is unprovable (and personally I find it doubtful, especially if failure happened within warranty period, as I would expect engineers designing the PSU to spec for such period)

It's usually turned on by internal temperature. Typically, there is an NTC thermistor inside, which, when heated high enough, drops resistance low enough, so current passing allows the fan to start.

There is also some sort of thresholding for that typically, because at voltages close to startup fan might attempt but struggle to run, generating buzzing noise. I actually fanswapped my old LEPA G650-MAS due to this exact issue, and early fanless Corsairs suffered from this as well.

Now I use 2 such PSUs in my rigs: New Cooler Master V550 Gold V2 and old Tacens Valeo III 500 W, and haven't had issues since. Funny how this Tacens got fanless mode right in 2007-2008 before first fanless Corsairs lol.


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## kapone32 (Oct 4, 2022)

Years ago I bought a HX1200I. Corsair has aggressively been pulling their products into their software. I cannot run the fan on my PSU without using ICUE software. Without the software and fan control the PSU will go as high as 60 C. I am not a fan of zero RPM PSUs.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 4, 2022)

Heat always builds up. It is not spread evenly.

Best of both worlds are hybrid fanless. My old fractal does it. It spins up like once an hour and then stops. PSU's usually doesn't have more than two temp probes, you cannot put them everywhere on each component.

The obvious problem is capacitor lifespan as their aging is also ambient temperature dependent(besides ripple). It takes only one cap near some hot element to make problems, like some additional voltages for logic, then a domino effect can occur due to instability taking out semiconductors.

So at the end of day it all depends. There are no problems with loads under ~150W. Laptop chargers do work fine, ain't it? Now with GaN the bar is higher. Doing more 200W passive is another topic. It is hard, I would not do it, especially not 400W. I have a feeling those designs still rely on some sort of case airflow. Maybe some super duper efficient designs past 95% efficiency but... 5% from 400W is still 20W, that's nothing to sneeze at.

It is all good when the load is high and dynamic, the PC triggers high loads and the fan spins up. The problem is with those PC's not hitting the ceiling and the heat always builds up, so it is debatable and depends on ambient temps, case airflow etc.


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## N/A (Oct 4, 2022)

I haven't noticed any problems, but over time the fan-less function turned off sooner even at very low loads like browsing and became very noisy at that on my gold 450 220v, although being more efficient. This is useful for prolonging the fan life as well as comfort so i see no reason to avoid it. Note that never happened to replicate the exact activation point, it was much lower than review data taken at 110v to begin with. So it must be temperature sensing all the time. Especially with the 1030 in no way could it overheat unless you live on the equator or on the beach in bad humidity levels.


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## dgianstefani (Oct 4, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Heat always builds up. It is not spread evenly.
> 
> Best of both worlds are hybrid fanless. My old fractal does it. It spins up like once an hour and then stops. PSU's usually doesn't have more than two temp probes, you cannot put them everywhere on each component.
> 
> ...


Remember that laptop PSUs are enclosed, whereas desktop PSUs are much, much larger, and have venting, allowing for natural convection cooling, as heat rises.

Seasonic has a 700W fanless unit, that performs amongst the best ever tested in review, and temperatures aren't an issue.


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## R0H1T (Oct 4, 2022)

I like those Hydro series with immersion "liquid" cooling 








						FSP Hydro PTM Pro 1200 W Review - A Silent Power Factory
					

The FSP Hydro PTM Pro 1200 W is very quiet and of high build quality. This makes it an excellent candidate for a power-hungry current-generation GPU from NVIDIA or AMD. Can it compete with the offerings from ASUS, Seasonic and Corsair?




					www.techpowerup.com
				











						FSP Hydro G PRO 850 W Review
					

The FSP Hydro G Pro 850 W is of terrific build quality and uses a modern platform, but something in its final recipe didn't turn out as planned. Overall performance isn't as good as with the competition, and the HG2-850 costs more than the popular Corsair RM850x or Seasonic Focus Plus Gold of...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## qubit (Oct 4, 2022)

I love zero RPM, nice and quiet. I like a quiet PC like you do.

I recently went all-out and bought the Corsair AX1600i, because it's such a fabulous PSU and has a zero RPM fan. And yes, that power output is complete overkill...


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## Dr. Dro (Oct 4, 2022)

I live in a hot climate area, so I generally disable zero RPM modes. Silent and powerful is great, but you need to balance noise output, performance and reliability. Having the latter two without noise is possible, but cost and complexity tends to increase exponentially depending on where you operate the system.



kapone32 said:


> Years ago I bought a HX1200I. Corsair has aggressively been pulling their products into their software. I cannot run the fan on my PSU without using ICUE software. Without the software and fan control the PSU will go as high as 60 C. I am not a fan of zero RPM PSUs.



I owned an HX1200i, sold it a while ago. I dislike iCUE too, but with this model you should still be able to download and use Corsair Link 4. TechSpot still has it mirrored in their download section:









						Corsair Link
					

Corsair Link Dashboard software allows you to monitor your system and gives remarkable control over your case fans, lighting, and compatible Corsair power supplies and Hydro Series liquid CPU coolers that work together for optimal cooling and performance. Version 4.9.6.19 also available here.




					www.techspot.com


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## AsRock (Oct 4, 2022)

I think it's better to have a very slow fan at the very least so there is some air movement.

EDIT: This is to protect things like capacitors, for example a video card were you could have a bunch of caps near a VRM or other close to it running temps 35-50c and not considered hot but  the hotter they are the less life span they have.


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## qubit (Oct 4, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> I live in a hot climate area, so I generally disable zero RPM modes. Silent and powerful is great, but you need to balance noise output, performance and reliability. Having the latter two without noise is possible, but cost and complexity tends to increase exponentially depending on where you operate the system.


I'll second this.

My new AX1600i that isn't being stressed at all with the PC sitting on the desktop and the fan off, nevertheless still feels quite warm to the touch, despite its super high efficiency.

If I was in warm climate like yours, I'd probably want the fan running all the time too.


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## dgianstefani (Oct 4, 2022)

Warm to the touch means the PSU is doing it's job of radiating heat away from the components.

Same issue people have with the PS5 exhaust, AM5 CPUs and 5800X3D - they all report high exhaust temps, but this is good, as it means the heat is being efficiently removed. The issue is how much power draw those CPUs use, not the heat of the exhaust. With PSU's it's efficiency - you can easily determine how much electricity is being converted to heat, and then work out if that's reasonable to dissipate without active airflow.

Remember the PSU will shut itself down in OTP, and i know there's only a couple of temperature sensors, but I strongly doubt that the majority of high quality PSUs that have zero fan modes are suffering much product life degradation as a result of no active airflow. Either the fan kicks in at a wattage level, or the PSU heats up past it's ability to ambiently radiate heat, and the fan kicks in.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 4, 2022)

dgianstefani said:


> as heat rises.



From where and how, you can put in many ways... also you can stuck it in a small SFF case with almost no ventilation and ambient inside over 60C and GPU always spits heat on the PSU, if we put all this case in some southern hot area the completely passive mode may not be the best scenario, the hotspot temperature deviation is in double digits inside the PSU, so the real result varies a lot. It would not matter in short term, but after 5-10 years some signs should show. Completely passive designs are rare for a reason. Even if some people abuse the design, then warranty comes in place, for most it should work. If you think for long term hassle free investment - simply don't do passive, if you plan to replace/sell it after 4-6 years - don't care.

As usual... there is no Wattage... it is power level measured in Watts, don't be like them.


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## BSim500 (Oct 4, 2022)

stromtroeper said:


> Thoughts?


I prefer the fan on with semi-fanless models as running cooler with less high-low thermal cycling variation is better for the capacitors longer term, plus the fan speeds are much lower / quieter than they used to be (and I was a regular on SilentPCReview for years, so I'm picky about fan noise too). I doubt that a 30w GT1030 would have done anything though. Your PSU death could just be one of those things. Having said that, fanless / semi-fanless PSU's are why I hate stupid PSU shrouds. Many such PSU's state 'face them upward' if you're running without a fan (heat vented back into case is pretty negligible but at least it will vent out of the PSU instead of being trapped at the upside-down "bottom" of a downward-facing PSU), yet the PSU shroud in modern pretentious art pieces 'cases' then acts like the world's dumbest insulation...


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## bonehead123 (Oct 4, 2022)

Bottom line is that heat & computer parts are sworn enemies, and have been since the dawn of the electronic age in the 30's....so either chill it or kill it !

"warm to the touch" is way too hot IMHO, so I will gladly tolerate a little touch of fan noise in favor of my 'puters dying an early death & having to be replaced prematurely...


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## Kissamies (Oct 4, 2022)

My old Seasonic FX750 is semi-passive and I had nothing to complain. Still a working unit, I just moved it to my 2nd rig though and to be honest, the system is loud enough so I can't hear any difference anymore that is the fan on or off.


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## xtreemchaos (Oct 4, 2022)

every one of my PSUs is 0 rpm untill a load of 50% or so ive a Seasonic gx750, gx850 and corsair RM850i and why i like them apart from Quiet is i dont have to clean them out every 12 months.


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## delshay (Oct 4, 2022)

I would think there's a better chance of running zero rpm fan speed if you buy a very high output PSU. I use a 1200w PSU & the fan only seems to come in the hot summer months where ambient temperature is a lot higher.


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## MarsM4N (Oct 4, 2022)

Not all components on a PSU are thermally monitored. So I rather have a fan spinning at the lowest speed all the time.

I also think *start/stop* puts more stress on the fan motor.  Roast me.


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 4, 2022)

stromtroeper said:


> I despise any type of fan noise


Not as much as me!!!  My first love in electronics was audiophile quality audio reproduction (repairing and listening). Record pops and tape hiss were bad enough but fan noise on top of that? No way! Totally unacceptable. 


Dr. Dro said:


> I live in a hot climate area, so I generally disable zero RPM modes.


This really makes no sense to me. 

Assuming one does their homework and buys a quality PSU from a quality maker, why not believe the designers know what they are doing? 

We are not talking about a totally passive (no fan) PSU as are often used in HTPCs to achieve total silence (at least from the PSU).  There is still a fan in these PSUs. And they don't kick in based only on power/current draw. Those fans also spin up (and/or spin faster) when they crossover preset thermal thresholds too. I see no reason not to assume the engineers and designers have set those trigger thresholds at points that will protect the PSUs. Surely they want their products to last at least through the warranty periods. 

Now if we are talking about a cheap fan from some generic, no-name maker, all bets are off. But why buy such a PSU in the first place? The PSU is arguably the most important electronic component in our systems since EVERYTHING inside the computer case depends on good, clean, stable power. 



stromtroeper said:


> I am wondering if it died because it operated without the aid of the cooling fan.


Nah! It died because the stars were aligned against you. Until Man can create perfection 100% of the time, there will always be units that fail prematurely. 



stromtroeper said:


> I checked and found not a spec of dust inside PSU


But that really does not tell us anything because we know nothing about the computer case this PSU was mounted in. Nor do we know anything about the environment of the room the computer was operated in. 

Is it a quality computer case with decent air filters? Is case cooling properly set up with a slight over (positive) pressure to ensure incoming air is only coming through filters (if there are filters)? Is the room climate controlled (through a HVAC filter) or are windows left open much of the year? Do you live in a dusty desert, or lush jungle? Are there rugrats and pets shedding dander and running around stirring up dust? 

As noted in my signature, "Heat is the bane of all electronics!" And that certainly is true. But that, in no way, means "all" heat is evil or damaging and must be avoided at all costs. In fact, electronics in general, works best (in terms or stability, performance, and longevity) when operating comfortably within a designated operating range. This is why in extremely cold environment (satellites in space and arctic locations as examples) heaters are used, when necessary, to boost the operating environment temperature. 

Also, different components have very different heat tolerance abilities. Power supplies, in general, generate a significant amount of heat. For that reason, the components selected to build those supplies have been selected because they are able to tolerate those expected heat levels. 

So while it is critically important to ensure our electronics are never exposed to excessive heat, it is not necessary to get it as cold as possible. There is no reason, for example, to expect a CPU to be more stable, perform better, or last longer if maintained the majority of the time at 20°C instead of 50°C. Now if it spends most of its time up around 90°C and it has a maximum T-junction spec of 100°, that CPU is likely to fail prematurely. Hence the phrase "comfortably within" above. 

Are there exceptions to everything I just said? Of course. But exceptions don't make the rule.


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## Chomiq (Oct 4, 2022)

Seasonic Focus Plus Gold 750W, semi-passive mode from day 1, can't even tell if/when the fan is kicking in. No problems for 3 years, knock on wood.


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## shovenose (Oct 4, 2022)

My Phanteks (Seasonic) has this feature, I turned it off so the fan is always running.
Basically the fan is so silent anyway at the low speeds it’s running at, I may as well let it run and let the components stay as cool as possible.


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## sLowEnd (Oct 4, 2022)

As long as the PSU is good quality, I don't think premature failure would be high up on the list of potential concerns.

FWIW, anecdotally I haven't had any laptop brick style PSUs fail on me, and those are 100% passive. I have a 10+ year old one powering an old Sandy Bridge laptop, a 6+ year old one powering my SFF work PC, and a few other ones whose ages I can't remember off the top of my head.


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## Ganakas (Oct 4, 2022)

dgianstefani said:


> Remember that laptop PSUs are enclosed, whereas desktop PSUs are much, much larger, and have venting, allowing for natural convection cooling, as heat rises.
> 
> Seasonic has a 700W fanless unit, that performs amongst the best ever tested in review, and temperatures aren't an issue.


Depends on what you consider temperatures not being an issue  lets say someone doesn't have that seasonic.    I have  a corsair hx 1200i  , as another poster mentioned without software  the fan will not spin.   Even my initial setup with the power supply (2700 non x / 1660TI  ) it was getting as hot or hotter than the 1660 Ti... I mod cases  each time i build a new system in a new case anyway which I tend to keep PSU's and  cases the longest of all components.  Anyway I finally moved the powersupply out of my system as I refuse to use corsairs software which bugs out various  OSD's and certain games I play.

Avg temp on 1660 TI dropped by 8c (thats alot in Fahrenheit) While the increase in temps of the PSU may not harm the PSU or "be an issue" FOR the psu....that heat isn't magically transfered ..it bleeds into the surrounding components. When i was messing with the 5700 and 5700xt I woulda hated to see the temps on those two cards as they ran much hotter for not much hotter. The 3600x and now 3800xt (soon likely 5800x + 6800xt) no doubt would suffer from the psu just sweating heat out into the case. 

A simple toggle like the backup bios 3d cards have now and mobo's have had since well my gigabyte board in 2002 had a bios switch... For the fan on these psu's would be prefered vs forcing software usage or acceptance of heat hampering other components in the system.

I have had 3 diff ram kids across the 3 processors (all same motherboard) and I can tell u tho ram isn't that sensitive to heat ... it doesn't help and the initial hynix kit i had went from locked at slightly better than its 3200 c16 xmp profile to right before replacing it 3600 c14 on that 2700 and a short period on the 3600x. after PSU being removed from the equation. 


So temps not being an issue is subjective


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## Iain Saturn (Oct 4, 2022)

Does it even matter?  Seasonic (and other brands) fans are not audible anyway even under heavy load.  

Strange.

I love silent systems myself but a quality power supply using a fan or fan less or zero rpm makes no difference.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 5, 2022)

Why would I want the PSU fan to spin under these conditions and dust the inside?

The following was screenshot with 30sec deference 

iCue







HWiNFO64


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## Shrek (Oct 5, 2022)

stromtroeper said:


> I bought a high end Corsair platinum PSU 750W that I know from reviews has zero-rpm fan below 400W power draw. So my system was operating noise free for 5 years until the PSU suddenly died.



Isn't it still under warrantee?


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## Zach_01 (Oct 5, 2022)

Here is after some gaming 90min.

GPU capped at 62FPS (monitor 60Hz)





The 524rpm is the minimum speed of PSU fan. Meaning that it was turned on occasionally and briefly as the 123rpm (avg) indicates. Usually fan spins after 400~420W (output).


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## evernessince (Oct 5, 2022)

A properly designed fanless mode is without a doubt superior.  It reduces noise and extends the life of the fan with no downside.

If a part of the PSU is getting too hot while in fanless operation, that's poor design.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 5, 2022)

Iain M Banks said:


> Does it even matter?  Seasonic (and other brands) fans are not audible anyway even under heavy load.
> 
> Strange.
> 
> I love silent systems myself but a quality power supply using a fan or fan less or zero rpm makes no difference.


Perhaps if you live in very noisy environment, have loud rest of PC, use headphones, or have, respectfully, impaired hearing.

I have no problem hearing most PSU fans at idle. Only ones I truly consider inaudible are high quality FDB/magnetic bearing fans spinning at up to 600 rpm or so (e.g., be-quiet! or some Enermax fans). In fact, I have to enable fanless mode on my V550 Gold, because otherwise it stands out over rest of the PC even at idle lmao.


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## Andrea87 (Oct 5, 2022)

I like power supplies with low power fanless options, when they are built correctly. The one I'm running now has this feature (Seasonic Platinum 660w) and I'm happily using it. With high efficiency designs (platinum and above) like this, even at low power loads (20%, 130W) you'll get 92% efficiency. The little amount of passive airflow the psu gets from the pc itself is more than enough to dissipate the few watts of heat it makes. Also the fan is temperature-controlled, so if the psu heats up it would start doing its job. Modern designs with LLC resonant primary converters, active rectification on the 12v secondary plus syncronous conversion for the low voltages lines do strongly reduce most of the losses we had in less "advanced" power supplies in the past.


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## Iain Saturn (Oct 5, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> The ones I truly consider inaudible are high quality FDB/magnetic bearing fans spinning at up to 600 rpm or so (e.g., be-quiet! or some Enermax fans).



Correct.  As well as FSP, Seasonic and some from Fractal.

So the original poster should just get those and there is no need to worry for 10+ years.

Done.


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## AleXXX666 (Oct 5, 2022)

Calenhad said:


> The fan is not only activated by power draw, but also temperature. I like zero rpm fan modes. And have not seen any failures I would attribute to this feature.
> 
> The previous faulty PSU I had was a DOA Corsair HX1000 where the fan had a clicking noise. So the zero rpm feature hid the problem for a couple weeks


same, FIRST NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE with SEASONIC and even PRIME!!! I bought 750w gold seasonic prime, and the fan was crackling a little, it could be heard only in dead silence! but I have very sensitive ears for low noises, even I'm not a musician or audiophile lol
but I needed the PC and couldn't afford buying some "replacement" for the time of warranty issues so I just sold the PSU out and got new, Seasonic Focus GM650w Gold, and this is not "premium" prime line-up but it has zero issues with fan as I expect from EVERY seasonic psu as I've had them for years!!
btw, seasonic has kindda troubles sometimes with this zero-fan feature. and it was again with my 750w prime gold lol! when the button is pressed it should have zero-fan on but it has a bug and worked vice-versa, and in my life i haven't seen any seasonic fan damage because of wear and tear so i don't care lol
but now I know they have started to produce cheap cr*p models with cheaper and worse fans so I just try to avoid such a "surprise" models from a reputable (for me) company!


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## Athlonite (Oct 5, 2022)

I've just bought an EVGA 1000w PSU and the first thing I did was turn off the zero rpm fan feature as it's not noisy at all when idle or with medium loads and even at full noise it makes less noise than the 180mm fans in the bottom of my RV02 case so I never hear it anyways


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## INSTG8R (Oct 5, 2022)

My Seasonic has it and so did my previous one. I personally don't use any kind of "Zero Fan" options. I don't use it on my GPU either, I mean I can't measure my PSUs fan speed but my GPU with Zero Fan disabled runs at like 7-800rpm so virtually silent, I don't think I have EVER heard my PSU fan over any of my case fans, so yeah I wouldn't turn it off either.


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## Dr. Dro (Oct 5, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> This really makes no sense to me.
> 
> Assuming one does their homework and buys a quality PSU from a quality maker, why not believe the designers know what they are doing?
> 
> ...



I don't disagree on principle, but it gives me some peace of mind knowing at at least some meaningful degree of air movement and heat exchange is occurring. 

Ambient temperatures around and north of 100F/37C are not uncommon during summer here and I don't have an air conditioning system at all, so all cooling for these high TDP parts of mine is done the old fashioned way. And, of course, I have a very large and very high capacity unit that is already an older design (EVGA 1300 G2, which is basically a rebrand of the 1st generation Super Flower Leadex, both reviewed by Aris here at TPU), so it's really an abundance of caution rather than a hard requirement.


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## maxfly (Oct 5, 2022)

I always turn off zero fan anything on everything. I would rather exhaust any excess heat vs trap it. Heat and I, we don't get along very well hehe.
 I've got this weird habit of researching the sheeit out of any gear that may potentially make noise in my rig. Pair that with a need to have great power supplies and that equates to never having heard the fans in any of my PSUs in my silent rigs. I have these nifty critters, their called filters on all of my intakes...yep that includes the psu. Keeps that sucker clean as a whistle with little more than a quick vac a month.


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## Shrek (Oct 5, 2022)

I don't mind fan noise so long as it is steady and not too loud; noticeable variations can be very disturbing. A fan should ramp up and down slowly.


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 5, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> it gives me some peace of mind knowing at at least some meaningful degree of air movement and heat exchange is occurring.


That's exactly right! 



maxfly said:


> I always turn off zero fan anything on everything. I would rather exhaust any excess heat vs trap it.


"Trap it"? No one is trapping the heat. That would be a pretty lousy design if heat was being trapped inside a PSU case, then held stagnant there by zero air movement within the PC case. And if that was the scenario, the builder/assembler did a lousy job of selecting components and configuring their case cooling. 

Also, and once again, if there was any "excess" heat, the fan would kick in and move it out - not trap it. 

It should be pointed out most quality PSU cases are also full of holes - ventilation holes. Holes that allow much of the heat to escape out of the PSU and into the computer case where [hopefully] properly configured case cooling will move that heated air out the exhaust vents. Those holes also allow cool air to come in to replace the warm air that escaped. Even the metal of the PSU case itself acts as a heatsink where air flow from the case cooling can help extract some of the heat. 

Plus, any quality PC PSU - especially if designed for no or limited fan operation - will have more than adequate heatsinks attached to the more heat-sensitive components. This will help cool the PSU even if mounted up top (which is becoming less and less common these days). 



maxfly said:


> Heat and I, we don't get along very well hehe.


And that's great to take controlling heat seriously but preventing excessive heat can be done easily without being excessive (or obsessive) in that control. 

Do you power all your case fans directly from the PSU so they always spin at full speed? Or do you disable case/system speed control in the BIOS Setup Menu? I bet not. 

Speaking to the crowd - I am not buying the excuse that disabling the zero fan option is justified because the fan is near-silent anyway. Even a fan of the highest possible quality is still subject to wear and tear on the bearings. Why put wear on the bearings when unnecessary? 

It always amazes me how - almost exclusively with computer hardware and software - some users assume the formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground.   I don't see this in any other industry - only computers. 

Many if not most cars these days have electric fans for their radiators that start spinning only when needed. Do users disable that "zero fan" feature? Many big screen TVs have internal fans that cycle on and off as needed. Are those "zero fan" features disabled? Many A/V amplifiers and receivers have cooling fans that cycle on and off as needed. Are they disabled? But put a computer in front of these folks and instantly they dink with the BIOS defaults, OS defaults, and now PSU defaults too. Even though they have zero formal training in any of these areas. It really makes no sense. 



Shrek said:


> noticeable variations can be very disturbing. A fan should ramp up and down slowly.


I totally agree that variations can be disturbing. I wake up in the middle of the night during a power outage because suddenly the house became silent! “_The silence is deafening!_"

However, a CPU or GPU, for example, can go from cool to *over*-heated in just a few clock cycles. And with 3 billion+ cycles every second, cooling demands can go from zero to extreme in an instant too. So IMO, a spinning fan can decelerate slowly to avoid attracting my attention, but they should be able to ramp up to full speed very quickly.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 5, 2022)

I like my zero rpm feature for X570 chipset, GPU and PSU.

Practically anything around the 15-20W and below does not need active cooling as long as a heat sink is on top of it. And some times doesn’t even need a heatsink at all.

If I disable all of the above zero rpm features it will not make my system any louder. I’m not keeping it stopped for noise.
It’s about unnecessary function (wear) and dust into the system/components.

My entire GPU card consumes less that 20W peak, outside gaming and it got a 1.5Kg heat sink on it. There is no need for fan for anything but gaming or computing. On some light games with capped FPS (60) fans do not start at all and temp is below 60C, s

PSU runs cool enough at 100-150W output (10-15W of heat).
Chipset is cooled be a 120mm case fan I have under GPU at under 1000rpm.
This fan helps with GPU, chipset and second NVMe drive I have under GPU.

Imagine for example how often a GPU would need cleaning if the fans where operating 6-10+ hours a day instead of 1-2 hours by avg for gaming. Sometimes even less.

My PSU is 4+ years old and the inside is almost new, dust wise.
GPU is almost 3 years old and cleaned 2 times so far without any significant amount of dust in it.
Why would I want fans working at all times if not necessary?

For many years now I use daily monitoring tools for temperatures and other, and this gave me the knowledge and the mind to not overthink the zero rpm feature on most of components.

Know your system.


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## Shrek (Oct 5, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> However, a CPU or GPU, for example, can go from cool to *over*-heated in just a few clock cycles. And with 3 billion+ cycles every second, cooling demands can go from zero to extreme in an instant too. So IMO, a spinning fan can decelerate slowly to avoid attracting my attention, but they should be able to ramp up to full speed very quickly.



How so?

Let's take a 200g block of aluminum and heat it by say 20°C, that takes 3600J; so even if the CPU/GPU were pumping say 200W, that would take 18 seconds with no cooling at all.


----------



## Lei (Oct 5, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> I totally agree that variations can be disturbing. I wake up in the middle of the night during a power outage because suddenly the house became silent! “_The silence is deafening!_"


Even sunset can't wake me up.



Shrek said:


> How so?
> 
> Let's take a 200g block of aluminum and heat it by say 20°C, that takes 3600J; so even if the CPU/GPU were pumping say 200W, that would take 18 seconds with no cooling at all.


CPU goes from 30° (a bit above ambient) to 80° in a couple of seconds.
Why 200 grams? A cpu die is not that heavy.

The heatsink being aluminium, does that mean cpu and heatsink have the same temp?
Take specific heat of silicon = 0.71

About weight for silicon = 2.33g/cm
Die size: silicon wafer thickness is 775 µm , for DRAM it is 50 µm
Let's say die size is 3x3 cm
Volume =0.69 cubic cm

Weight = 2.33x0.69 = 1.39

I'm sorry, it is less than 2 grams.

How many joules to heat up 2 grams of silicon 80 degrees = 0.71x2x80 = 113

Well 113 watts can provide that heat in one second.
Notice : I bumped up the thickness to 1 mm (1000µm) and die size is probably less than 3x3cm

Nope, I kept the die thickness 775 µm. For 1 millimeter, final watt per second (joule) is ... Opps, I said 1.39 is ~2grams. So still I bumped up the weight (thickness) for you. Final answer is 119 watts with so much favor to your side. Ok, now let's say it's 2mm thick die. 238 watt for that. And we shouldn't say 80° raise in temp. We're already 30° and we want to stay under 90. So it's 178 watts to raise 4.19 grams of silicon 60° in one second.


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## Shrek (Oct 5, 2022)

True, if you run the CPU/GPU without a heatsink, you will be in trouble in around one second.


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## damric (Oct 5, 2022)

I always disable that zero-rpm feature.


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## Tomgang (Oct 5, 2022)

My phanteks Revolt x 1200 psu has a switch so I can run the fan either constantly or in 0 rpm mode. It is manufactured by seasonic and as far I remember. Seasonic psu have a switch on there psu. Maybe not on the cheapest psu.

So here is what I do. In the fall/winter or low load it runs 0 rpm mode. Spring/summer or high load, it runs in fan running mode. More simple can the solution not be for me I think. So basically, I have the best og bofh things.


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## maxfly (Oct 5, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> That's exactly right!
> 
> 
> "Trap it"? No one is trapping the heat. That would be a pretty lousy design if heat was being trapped inside a PSU case, then held stagnant there by zero air movement within the PC case. And if that was the scenario, the builder/assembler did a lousy job of selecting components and configuring their case cooling.
> ...


Bill and his walls of text, sigh. Summarize man, summarize!

Yes Bill, I said trap it. You read it, and then even managed to "quote" me correctly. Attaboy 
That's cute. The fact that you wrote a wall of text to share your opinion with me as to why zero fan psu operation is the shizz...for Bill. Guess what Bill? Max don't care. You do you baby.
  Bill not having an issue with excess heat(gasp, he said excess heat!) being slowly vented back into his case is his thing. What it isn't, is my thing. You see Bill, if I'm running my PSU fan at 30% and said heat is being immediately exhausted out of my case, poof there goes that unnecessary excess. Funny how that works. Fan on, heat gone. Whereas in Bills zero fan world, there's only one place for that heat to go (until the temp thresh hold has been met of course, don't forget to mention that or yes you guessed it! Wall-o-text hahaha). If you're cool with that by all means, have at it. The argument your trying to make is that it wears out your poor delicate little fans! That are likely rated for a gazillion mtbf btw. My PSUs come with either a 12 or 10 year warranty. So yeah, I ain't scurred.

But that's neither here nor there. That's not the point is it oh Billyboy? The point is, was and has been. I have a lil switch on the back of my PSU that lets me "choose". Sayyy what?!?! Yes me boyoo, I "choose" to run my gear the way I like it. All nice and cool like. WOW!

And as an aside...
Power supplies are engineered specifically to be used with a fan by formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers. Huh? What? Whodathunk? Blowin minds, it's what I does. Hahaha!

 Sorry Bill but your case fan question makes no sense. 

Cmon Bill. Even I lose interest once someone does the lame ass car analogy thing.


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## freeagent (Oct 5, 2022)

My Prime gold GX-750 shuts down so hard I have to flip the switch when running F@H on my CPU and GPU. My EVGA doesn't do that 

But the 0 fan feature works great on the Prime  The EVGA does not have it.


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## TheUn4seen (Oct 5, 2022)

Right now I use a Corsair RM750. It is probably close to being 10 years old and it's fan kicks in so rarely, the last time I remember hearing it was when I used it in a dual 3080 miner. Sometimes it turns on after several hours of playing Eve Online, but for no more than a minute, probably due to slow heat build up. I deeply dislike fan noise, so I wouldn't buy a non semi-passive power supply.
The only PSU to blow up on me was a very expensive BeQuiet (actually was fairly loud) unit which exploded and left a black mark on my wall - it was a long time ago, but it did so while idle and with not very demanding hardware.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 5, 2022)

maxfly said:


> Power supplies are engineered specifically to be used with a fan by formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers.


Those same educated engineers (and not our groceries salesman) thought that when its not really needed the fan can stop. So the "specifically" in your sentence is simple your opinion and not the reality.

10hours of typical and some idle operation at 25C room temp. Do I need to start the fan? Is the PSU going to burn at 45C or even wear out?
Is the 15W avg (Input minus output power) or even the peak 20W heat going to heat up the rest of the system?






Same time and same environment for the GPU.
I guess 40-45C is too much... for something that that has a Tjmax close to 100C





FYI the same GPU under the same operating and environment conditions dumps the same amount of heat into the case with its fan spinning or with it stopped.


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 5, 2022)

Shrek said:


> How so?
> 
> Let's take a 200g block of aluminum and heat it by say 20°C


How so? Come on Andy! We've been through this many times before. You cannot pick out of thin air some arbitrary, one-off example, then pretend it applies across the board and nullifies an entire point! 

If you want to play that game then "let's take" a smaller block of aluminum. Or how about a HSF that is not mounted properly? Or even a bigger copper block where the user failed to apply a proper layer of TIM? Would you want your cooling fan to take it's sweet time to ramp up? I sure would not. 



			
				maxfly said:
			
		

> Yes Bill, I said trap it. You read it, and then even managed to "quote" me correctly. Attaboy


Yes I did - to illustrate if you have heat being trapped and not moving, then it is YOU, maxfly, YOU who have failed to set up your case cooling properly. And it is YOU who has failed to understand that zero fan does not mean "zero" all the time. And instead, it simply means the fan stays off until needed. 



maxfly said:


> And as an aside...
> Power supplies are engineered specifically to be used with a fan by formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers. Huh? What? Whodathunk? Blowin minds, it's what I does. Hahaha!


Hahaha! Unless they are not!  Lots and lots of power supplies are engineered specifically to NOT be used with a fan. Blows your mind huh? Unless you bothered to educate yourself on the topic.


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## maxfly (Oct 5, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Those same educated engineers (and not our groceries salesman) thought that when its not really needed the fan can stop. So the "specifically" in your sentence is simple your opinion and not the reality.
> 
> 10hours of typical and some idle operation at 25C room temp. Do I need to start the fan? Is the PSU going to burn at 45C or even wear out?
> Is the 15W avg (Input minus output power) or even the peak 20W heat going to heat up the rest of the system?
> ...


Hahaha, oh boy. 
Is it simple my opinion or is your opinion simple your opinion? Hmmmm. 
Do you need to start the fan up? Do you feel like your PSU is going to burn at 45c or even wear out? Hmmmm.
Is the 15W avg (Input minus output power) or even the peak 20W heat going to heat up the rest of the system? Hmmmmm?

Zach. What gave you the misplaced impression that I care one iota about your gpu? I don't. But ty, ty so very much for sharing 

I tried to make it clear in my response to Bill. Obviously the clarity slipped by you. Sigh, I'll try again.
I don't care how you run your rig. Period. End of story. 
YOU 
DO 
YOU 
Mkay?


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## Zach_01 (Oct 5, 2022)

maxfly said:


> Hahaha, oh boy.
> Is it simple my opinion or is your opinion simple your opinion? Hmmmm.
> Do you need to start the fan up? Do you feel like your PSU is going to burn at 45c or even wear out? Hmmmm.
> Is the 15W avg (Input minus output power) or even the peak 20W heat going to heat up the rest of the system? Hmmmmm?
> ...


You are not in a private conversation with @Bill_Bright. Others can share their opinions or make their points.
And who do you really think "invented" the stop-fan operation if not the people who design the PSU or any other PC component?

And this thread is not owned by you or anyone else. If you cant make a civilized conversation try not to answer with types of comments that can trigger flames.
Also try to finish please your words and sentences so your point is clear. Not everyone here can understand mumbling.

You may not care for anything but your opinion but the OP might


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## maxfly (Oct 5, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Yes I did - to illustrate if you have heat being trapped and not moving, then it is YOU, maxfly, YOU who have failed to set up your case cooling properly. And it is YOU who has failed to understand that zero fan does not mean "zero" all the time. And instead, it simply means the fan stays off until needed.
> 
> 
> Hahaha! Unless they are not!  Lots and lots of power supplies are engineered specifically to NOT be used with a fan. Blows your mind huh? Unless you bothered to educate yourself on the topic.


Sigh, now Bills trying to be clever. Please don't. Your not, your only embarrassing yourself with silly shit like that man.

Lots and lots eh?  You mean the whopping, oh lets be generous and say 4 maybe 5% of passive units... TOPs? Hahaha!
 Yuuuup that sure do sounds like lotsa lotsa powur sippliers dudnt it.

That's just weak Bill.



Zach_01 said:


> You are not in a private conversation with @Bill_Bright. Others can share their opinions or make their points.
> And who do you really think "invented" the stop-fan operation if not the people who design the PSU or any other PC component?
> 
> And this thread is not owned by you or anyone else. If you cant make a civilized conversation try not to answer with types of comments that can trigger flames.
> ...


Of course! Let your opinions flow away Zachie my man! If my responses hurt your feelings. Don't quote me. Shrug
Nuh uh, are you cereal?! They made that for real!? Wow, I never woulda guessed.
Ooooh, our man Zach is touchy touchy now  your kinda thin skinned eh? Gotta learn how to interpret jokes.

Yeah, Zach that was done purposely. I'll try really, really hard not mince my words just for you, k?
I will run my rig my way.
You? Well, obviously you are free to do with your rig what ever pleases ya 
Clear enough?


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## Shrek (Oct 6, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> If you want to play that game



Way tired of such games

Overheating is NOT going to happen in nano seconds (clock cycles)



Bill_Bright said:


> However, a CPU or GPU, for example, can go from cool to *over*-heated in just a few clock cycles.



10J in 10^-9s is 10,000 MegaWatts, which is comparable to the largest power station ever built



Bill_Bright said:


> You cannot pick out of thin air some arbitrary, one-off example, then pretend it applies across the board and nullifies an entire point!



Sure, I might be out by a factor of 10 this way or that...

Just picked up an aluminum CPU heatsink that I use for decoration on a desk: 223g


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## Ahhzz (Oct 6, 2022)

Members. Act like adults. Actual adults, not pretend adults. State your opinion politely. Provide counter-arguments with supporting data. Agree to disagree. Move on. The world does not have to stop because "Someone is Wrong on the Internets!!"


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## Zach_01 (Oct 7, 2022)

@maxfly
_"You? Well, obviously you are free to do with your rig what ever pleases ya 
Clear enough?"

-------------------------_

It is well established for years now that all here and everywhere around the world can run their systems they way the want.
No doubt... you dont have to keep saying it. You can though.

OP has asked a specific question.

We are not here hopefully to try to change your opinion about zero rpm function of fans.

What is totally irrelevant IMHO is your comment about the educated engineers who designed the components to operate with a fan 100% of time.
And I can ask again... who do you think programed the zero-rpm function if not the educated engineer who designed the PSU or the whatever else component?

Can you answer this simple question? And maybe make and discussion (not required though) about it?
Or are you going to start diverging the subject to personal preferences? again...

-------------------------------------------------



stromtroeper said:


> I remember reading a Techpowerup review where the reviewer said he did not like those types of PSUs at all, I don't quite remember why...
> 
> My reason for the question is:
> I have a low power GT1030 with a passive heatsink (I despise any type of fan noise). I bought a high end Corsair platinum PSU 750W that I know from reviews has zero-rpm fan below 400W power draw. So my system was operating noise free for 5 years until the PSU suddenly died.
> ...



Fans are designed to take away the excess heat to avoid overheating as we all know. No science here...
But if the temperature is low... why cant the fan be stopped and start when really needed?
Its a simple function.

99.9% the dying had nothing to do with zero-rpm. PSUs are dying within warranty even with their fan operating 100% of time. It happens and you shouldn't be afraid of a PSU that its made with all the safeties to protect the rest of the system on its dying time.

Can I ask what exact model this PSU is? If its HX750i like mine you can monitor all its metrics from iCUE to witness if any high temp is going on in there, or maybe there is away you can just install the Corsair Link driver so you can monitor even more parameters through HWiNFO64, like the screenshot I posted on #28, if you dont want iCUE on your system that is.


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## cvaldes (Oct 7, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> What is totally irrelevant IMHO is your comment about the educated engineers who designed the components to operate with a fan 100% of time.
> And I can ask again... who do you think programed the zero-rpm function if not the educated engineer who designed the PSU or the whatever else component?



LOL, the same engineers who design PSUs with the always on fans also design the models that have the zero rpm feature.

Some people on these PC discussion forums never seem to understand this.

And yes, they probably tested a bunch of variants during the design phase. They programmed the fan to come on at a certain temperature. At a certain speed. And wrote fan curves to compensate for increased heat, whether it be from the PSU components or ambient surroundings.

And yet PC Q&A forum participants seem to have superior knowledge about such matters compared to the experienced engineers (many with advanced degrees from top technical programs around the globe). Armchair EE Ph.D. knows more about PSU design than the people who earn a living doing it.

Makes total sense. Another forum participant recently posted the same observation. This only happens in the PC world, nowhere else do rank amateurs truly believe that they have superior knowledge about a subject.

Should I question my dentist what she's doing? A cattle rancher? A cheesemaker? A mason? An opera singer?



> Fans are designed to take away the excess heat to avoid overheating as we all know. No science here...
> But if the temperature is low... why cant the fan be stopped and start when really needed?
> Its a simple function.



I find it curious that PC hardware is super exotic yet the same situation in a human's real life is completely ignored.

I have a box fan in my bedroom. There's a fan in the range hood above my stove. There's also a fan in my car. In most cases, I don't need to run any of them. I only run them when ordinary convection isn't enough.

Hell, here in the USA, many homes have a thermostatically governed climate control system. Gets too cold, heater starts and warm air is pumped into house. Gets too hot, air conditioning unit starts and cool air is pumped into house.

But PC hardware is snowflake material. The laws of physics and common sense operational policies don't really apply to PC hardware apparently. Yes, strange but true.

Right.



I love this site! People here are so smart and so generous in protecting us from idiocy churned out by the ton from the simpletons who run NVIDIA, AMD, Intel, Seasonic, etc.

THANK YOU!!!!!


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 7, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> LOL, the same engineers who design PSUs with the always on fans also design the models that have the zero rpm feature.



Yes also most doesn't work in RMA field servicing and witnessing the creation the engineers made with fixes made by the PR and gimping team as making them saints. There are more cases like Gigabyte supplies had, but just nobody spun PR through the whole internet about it, yet failures like that happen.

There's only one goal. To sell. As much and cheap possible. It fails? Buy a new one. It is BY DESIGN, nothing is designed to last forever. The life span of each certain product is the reason for debate here. Nobody asked to bring up some ideologic stuff derailing the discussion about what and why.

It all depends on specific usage scenario. If it is a passive design, it doesn't mean you can use it like in any place despite how it is advertised... like using your shoes for hitting nails, well heck - why not?


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## 64K (Oct 7, 2022)

Fan noise doesn't bother me at all. Somehow I'm able to block it out. I have 7 fans in my case. 3 case fans, 2 GPU fans, a CPU fan and the PSU fan. I would rather have a fan on my PSU running when the PSU was getting hot than to have a fan on the PSU not running when it was needed.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 7, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> Yes also most doesn't work in RMA field servicing and witnessing the creation the engineers made with fixes made by the PR and gimping team as making them saints. There are more cases like Gigabyte supplies had, but just nobody spun PR through the whole internet about it, yet failures like that happen.
> 
> There's only one goal. To sell. As much and cheap possible. It fails? Buy a new one. It is BY DESIGN, nothing is designed to last forever. The life span of each certain product is the reason for debate here. Nobody asked to bring up some ideologic stuff derailing the discussion about what and why.
> 
> It all depends on specific usage scenario. If it is a passive design, it doesn't mean you can use it like in any place despite how it is advertised... like using your shoes for hitting nails, well heck - why not?


Then why do companies provide long warranties on such PSUs and honor them, unless it's clear user error (and in some cases even then)?

Clearly in such case it's beneficial to engineer the product to last at least as long (or technically exactly as long) as warranty period. If such PSU has 10 years warranty, what would make one think it has to fail when operated in actual fanless mode before 10 years lol? That would make no sense for company.

And before you say "But it would last longer if ran with fan all the time!!!111!!1111!!!!!!!!!" - maybe. Maybe not. You cannot prove that either way. You'd need a time machine and run the same *sample *(not just another unit of same series!) from brand new until failure in both modes, then compare how long each failure mode took.


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## Bones (Oct 7, 2022)

Can only speak for myself but I do prefer a fan in my units. 
Doesn't have to be a high CFM fan but at the same time I do like the fact a fan will be moving air for cooling. 

Same goes for GPU's and all else as my preference - Again it doesn't have to be a high CFM unit maikng a bit of noise, just have a little air moving for cooling and that's it. 

For XOC, all bets are off related to how much CFM's my fans will be pushing and you know it will be pushing a few CFM to say the least of it.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 7, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> Then why do companies provide long warranties on such PSUs and honor them, unless it's clear user error (and in some cases even then)?



It is done only because of the competition. As X company does we also must have it without thinking much further... There is no guarantee the unit was ordered to perform in such mode and the decision to make it happen only stems from marketing point of view, there were cases that warranty was extended as gratis on existing products, just competitor Joe did the same, you got the idea right? You cannot imagine how many problems like that exist in the world. It doesn't apply only to Bethesda releasing games, pushing deploy in live environment... it also happens in all consumer products.

I would give you an example of one manufacturer that is bigger than all PSU makers and their OEM's together. They claim their product is water proof, but utterly it is not. The only difference is warranty, you will get your unit replaced in case of water damage, they don't care about the small percentage of irresponsible bunch of people who actually try out swimming in pool with the device. They calculated that deviance from the RMA bathtub curve doesn't deviate that much either way as other failures still occur. I cannot explain more details because of my contracts and NDA, but it takes sometimes 5 tries for those engineers in open consumer beta test to make some component like simple FPC connecting two boards right, why? Competition, terms, lack of time... you have to flood the marker with products of the same.

So as I said before... the warranty is the only key point, you can do it as you wish, but on some circumstances you may actually bring the device out of order as nothing is perfect. The unit actually may not be designed to be that rigid you imagine. The buffer of RMA keeps in check those people who abuse their devices to maximum... the better after years they would receive a different model, that may have improved. Most of people doesn't even approach half of the danger line and doesn't cause problems, the claim is valid and it counts... For those who break the unit all the time, just return money and piss off.

I actually took my own PSU apart last year after around 8 years of service. And remeasured all caps. They were all in check capacity(loss of 10% = normal) and ESR wise. I didn't test ripple suppression capability anymore, as that parameter is the most prone one and a stat with most less working hours. Basically your unit works, but your ripple on rails raised, it may be within ATX specs, but some things like OC stability may hurt actually because of that. Well I replaced them either way, also fixed inherited bulk cap deficiency... there is a thing about using a PSU for 10 years in the first place... you measure your rails? Yea it works, but you see tests done on OLD psu's?

Also there was a point that IT crowd is somehow special about arguing and complaining, that's utter BS, as you are more acknowledged any community has similar issues and discussions, you name it - food, fashion, arts, architecture, gardening... they all have competition and various products also with very large variety to pick from. That variety of indigents and their quality also is discussed everywhere.


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## Regeneration (Oct 7, 2022)

The problem with zero RPM fan is if you don't stress the system on a regular basis, the rotor collects dust and hair and the fan dies MUCH faster.

There is some machine oil on the rotor as well that dries up faster if the fan doesn't move often. Bottom line: its better to keep the fan spinning.


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## Kissamies (Oct 7, 2022)

Nothing bad to say against semi-passive PSUs. My older Seasonic has that feature and I use that mode.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 7, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> It is done only because of the competition. As X company does we also must have it without thinking much further... There is no guarantee the unit was ordered to perform in such mode and the decision to make it happen only stems from marketing point of view, there were cases that warranty was extended as gratis on existing products, just competitor Joe did the same, you got the idea right? You cannot imagine how many problems like that exist in the world. It doesn't apply only to Bethesda releasing games, pushing deploy in live environment... it also happens in all consumer products.
> 
> I would give you an example of one manufacturer that is bigger than all PSU makers and their OEM's together. They claim their product is water proof, but utterly it is not. The only difference is warranty, you will get your unit replaced in case of water damage, they don't care about the small percentage of irresponsible bunch of people who actually try out swimming in pool with the device. They calculated that deviance from the RMA bathtub curve doesn't deviate that much either way as other failures still occur. I cannot explain more details because of my contracts and NDA, but it takes sometimes 5 tries for those engineers in open consumer beta test to make some component like simple FPC connecting two boards right, why? Competition, terms, lack of time... you have to flood the marker with products of the same.
> 
> ...


Except competition won't make companies do things that are not economically viable.

If product is advertised as capable of fanless mode, but it fails prematurely, it is clearly faulty and to be returned, as long as covered by warranty period - that's induces a cost a company would rather avoid, with potential negative publicity on top of that. If that period was very short, that should have raised red flag in the first place.

Except it's not the case for actual semi-fanless units, which are typically premium ones and are 5 years MINIMUM, more often 7 or 10.



> Basically your unit works, but your ripple on rails raised, it may be within ATX specs, but some things like OC stability may hurt actually because of that


That's not relevant unless you can prove the difference in ripple between unit ran with fanless mode off vs on is meaningful to actually do so.

Except you'd need two untis of same series, measure their *initial *ripple *and *OC results (they may vary on per-unit basis as well!), run them both for x years in same conditions except for fanless mode, then redo the measurements for both units.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 7, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> That's not relevant



Dude, aren't going a bit overbroad?


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 7, 2022)

I just know that to prove causality in an experiment you need to isolate confounding variables.

And in hypothetical scenario you presented you had multiple.


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## Mussels (Oct 7, 2022)

I only buy zero RPM models. I dont want to hear it at idle.

All you need is positive airflow pressure in your case, which you should have anyway for dust reduction and tada - it's passively cooled


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## Zach_01 (Oct 7, 2022)

Mussels said:


> All you need is positive airflow pressure in your case, which you should have anyway for dust reduction and tada - it's passively cooled


I agree

Of course there are situations that differ from that, like some cases having separate compartments (bottom of case) for the PSU at least. Even those can be passively cooled through physical circulation/movement of warm-er air, as long as orientation is proper.


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## damric (Oct 7, 2022)

The idle fan is a worse problem when the PSU is mounted fan side down at the bottom of a case, especially on the PSUs which use the cheaper caps. I'm sure the old timers here remember the original Corsair RM which had such a high failure rate for this very reason.


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## dirtyferret (Oct 7, 2022)

Ferrum Master said:


> It is BY DESIGN, nothing is designed to last forever.


I beg to differ








damric said:


> The idle fan is a worse problem when the PSU is mounted fan side down at the bottom of a case, especially on the PSUs which use the cheaper caps. I'm sure the old timers here remember the original Corsair RM which had such a high failure rate for this very reason.


I don't recall ever hearing those units having a "high failure rate" from any viable source.



Mussels said:


> All you need is positive airflow pressure in your case, which you should have anyway for dust reduction and tada - it's passively cooled


All you need is airflow in an efficient manner
It is through empirical testing and the implementation of the scientific method that we can finally lay to rest one of the oldest debates in the computing community, at least for this chassis and configuration. While these results are for this specific chassis and configurations we would expect similar results from other cases as well. Whether you use more intake than exhaust, around the same, or more exhaust than intake, so long as all other variables are the same, they will all allow approximately the same amount of dust into the PC case. Whether you normally fight with small particulate house dust, the heavier sawdust, or sand from the arid western United States, the results will all be the same. This myth is busted.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 7, 2022)

damric said:


> The idle fan is a worse problem when the PSU is mounted fan side down at the bottom of a case, especially on the PSUs which use the cheaper caps. I'm sure the old timers here remember the original Corsair RM which had such a high failure rate for this very reason.


Actually, no.

They had high failure rate because OTP was not configured properly.





__





						Potential thermal issue with RM750 and RM850
					

The Corsair RM series power supplies are designed to run without active cooling for up to 40% load at typical room temperatures (25°C, or 77°F) and are capable of continuously outputting 100% of output capability at ambient temperatures of up to 40°C (104°F). We have found that our power supplies...




					forum.corsair.com


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 7, 2022)

@dirtyferret 

Excellent point about the fruit cake! LOL

The air flow and dust "myth" example, however, IMO is not busted because that article is flawed in its presumptions - at least in how I recommend case cooling be set up. And that is with "slight" over-pressure. They used 3 x 140mm intake fans and only 1 in back (with no help in back from a PSU). They also powered the fans directly from a PSU to ensure the fans ran full speed. 

That would create considerably more than a slight overpressure and certainly does not represent a real-world configuration. 

Still, I agree the results of that test were surprising and the main take away - for me anyway - was to always use a filtered case. But that's been my norm for almost 20 years.


----------



## dirtyferret (Oct 7, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> And that is with "slight" over-pressure.


personally that's what I use and if anyone asked, that is what I would recommend.  That said if anyone used a more negative airflow set up, that's fine as well.  As long as the setup is efficient, the differences in every test review I have seen has always been minor.


Bill_Bright said:


> was to always use a filtered case.


100%



ExcuseMeWtf said:


> They had high failure rate because OTP was not configured properly.


so that's a design flaw, not a failure rate.  The PSU were working as designed.  (not arguing just clearing up the opinion from what damric stated)


----------



## demirael (Oct 7, 2022)

bonehead123 said:


> Bottom line is that heat & computer parts are sworn enemies, and have been since the dawn of the electronic age in the 30's....so either chill it or kill it !
> 
> "warm to the touch" is way too hot IMHO, so I will gladly tolerate a little touch of fan noise in favor of my 'puters dying an early death & having to be replaced prematurely...


That's not remotely true. Flash for one wants to be hot when written to (but cool for retention if you don't touch the data in a long time), mechanical drives actually survive longer if they are a bit warm so the viscosity of the fluid in the bearings isn't too high and they definitely like steady temps. Most semiconductors don't care as long as you stay within a certain window. What you _don't_ want is heat cycles. Expansion and contraction is worse than stable temps.


----------



## bonehead123 (Oct 7, 2022)

By "heat" I was referring to *excessive* heat or heat that is not addressed or redirected with proper airflow.... normal/stable "operating" temps are perfectly fine & acceptable, to keep things working like they were designed to do as you said 

And yes, cycles and/or extreme variations are bad too !


----------



## maxfly (Oct 7, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> @maxfly
> _"You? Well, obviously you are free to do with your rig what ever pleases ya
> Clear enough?"
> 
> ...


If you paid attention to the conversation you wouldn't need that question answered for you. For some reason you've become fixated upon a portion of a conversation that had nothing to do with you. Rather than take it out of context, go back and reread the conversation it was originally responded to. If that doesn't clarify it for you, eh.


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 7, 2022)

> so that's a design flaw, not a failure rate.  The PSU were working as deIsigned.  (not arguing just clearing up the opinion from what damric stated)


It's a design flaw *that lead to failure* by shutting PSU down in conditions that were inside its specfications, i.e., PSU was supposed to stay operational under those.

Obviously, it's a different failure mode than stated previously, but it is very much a PSU failure nonetheless.


----------



## Zach_01 (Oct 7, 2022)

maxfly said:


> If you paid attention to the conversation you wouldn't need that question answered for you. For some reason you've become fixated upon a portion of a conversation that had nothing to do with you. Rather than take it out of context, go back and reread the conversation it was originally responded to. If that doesn't clarify it for you, eh.


Of course it had nothing to do with me.. what gave you that idea?
He/she who take such things and/or any random comments personally is making a big mistake.
Case closed… It’s not personal.

You can be as creative as you want to try to  avoid answering a simple question referring to a commend of yours that can stand alone and outside of any conversation.

I will no longer ask the same question.
The point is already a moot one.

You said and I quote:
_“Power supplies are *engineered specifically to be used with a fan* by formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers.”_

—————————

Obviously this whole statement is false by definition because the zero-rpm function is not introduced by anyone else than those who designed and engineered the PSUs.

Fans are stopping and starting, spinning up or down as needed all around us inside or outside a PC system.

Isn’t this clear already?
I want to say it is.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 7, 2022)

bonehead123 said:


> "warm to the touch" is way too hot IMHO


Sorry but that is a bit of a contradiction. "Warm to the touch" is perfectly normal and safe. "Warm", by definition is not "hot". 


bonehead123 said:


> By "heat" I was referring to *excessive* heat or heat that is not addressed or redirected with proper airflow.... normal/stable "operating" temps are perfectly fine & acceptable


I agree with that.


> heat & computer parts are sworn enemies, and have been since the dawn of the electronic age in the 30's


Wait! What? The dawn of the electronic age was long before that - in the late 1800s. Cities like New Orleans and Cleveland were installing street lights in the 1880s. San Fransico had replaced their arc lights with tungsten by 1920. 

Radio Stations were broadcasting music as early as 1909 - voice years before that. 

And while "excessive" heat is never good, early electronic computers depended on heat (and more than just "warm") too. Early computers used vacuum tubes (valves) that required a "hot" filament to heat up the cathode and excite the electronics. I recommend you read up on "thermionic emission". Electronics that required timing devices to set frequencies used crystals that sat in crystal ovens that would certainly burn your fingerprints off. 

And of course, the first digital, electronic computer was not invented until the 1940s.


----------



## damric (Oct 7, 2022)

I'm not denying that was the official statement by Corsair, and also by a certain n00b PSU reviewer that went to work for Corsair, but the autopsies in my lab at the time revealed otherwise


----------



## Vario (Oct 7, 2022)

I've heard of the EVGA 650 P2 dying from eco mode, I've always just left them on all the time.  Most power supplies are inaudible.  Unfortunately, my Superflower Leadex Platinum SE is quite audible, probably would be loud for most people.  I just use it as white noise.  Most of the supplied fans inside the power supplies are some of the most reliable fans you can find.


----------



## maxfly (Oct 7, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> Of course it had nothing to do with me.. what gave you that idea?
> He/she who take such things and/or any random comments personally is making a big mistake.
> Case closed… It’s not personal.
> 
> ...


Seriously. I have to explain this to you? Your too friggin lazy to simply go back and read the conversation that post was part of? 3...4 times now? You would rather continue to to take my response out of context, not understanding that everything you've asked has been answered.
 I'll make this really really, easy for you. So I don't have to repeat myself anymore. K?

Bill's response to my post #39, post #41 the abbreviated portion...


Bill_Bright said:


> It always amazes me how - almost exclusively with computer hardware and software - some users assume the formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground.   I don't see this in any other industry - only computers.


To which I responded in post #48 


maxfly said:


> Power supplies are engineered specifically to be used with a fan by formally educated electrical, computer, and thermal engineers, designers, manufacturers, and software developers. Huh? What? Whodathunk? Blowin minds, it's what I does. Hahaha!


I encourage you to go back. Re-read all of the posts verrrry carefully. I'm positive my stance on the issue will be clarified Zach.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 7, 2022)

maxfly said:


> To which I responded in post #48
> 
> Power supplies are engineered specifically to be used with a fan... .


Which, as a blanket statement, was and still is incorrect!

As I replied before, there are many PSUs designed to operate without a fan. And they do it just fine. Why? Because contrary to what you seem to believe and want everyone else to believe, the engineers and designers know what they are doing. In fact there is a whole class of fanless PSUs just for computers.

And, as noted multiple times by multiple people in this thread, there are PSUs designed to operate without a spinning fan until a specific demand and/or thermal threshold is crossed. And they do that just fine too. Why?  Again, because the engineers and designers know what they are doing. These thresholds are set above the danger level. NO! They are set to kick in before damaging temps are crossed. 

BTW, that is exactly how many car radiator fans work too!


----------



## Eskimonster (Oct 7, 2022)

Firstly, i buy one with 10 years warranty minimum, secondly i prefer the zero-fan option, last to mention is, i prefer Seasoninc´s Platinum rated PSU´s.


----------



## Ahhzz (Oct 8, 2022)

PEOPLE! Discuss the topic, stop the sideways insults, the sarcasm and the attacks.


----------



## Mussels (Oct 8, 2022)

dirtyferret said:


> I beg to differ
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, no.

I turned my rear exhaust into an intake, and it clogged up the back 1/3 of my radiator hard, everything in the system was coated.
Flipped it back around after hours of cleaning and 6 months later it's all low dust - it really, REALLY matters in dusty environments.

Me? I just live near a forest. When it's dry, we get fine dirt blown around by the wind.


----------



## Athlonite (Oct 8, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> "Trap it"? No one is trapping the heat. That would be a pretty lousy design if heat was being trapped inside a PSU case, then held stagnant there by zero air movement within the PC case. And if that was the scenario, the builder/assembler did a lousy job of selecting components and configuring their case cooling.


tell that to Silverstone their RV02 case sucks air in from the back and exhausts it out the top for the PSU so no amount of air movement inside the case will affect that so it's a must to turn off any zero fan speed bs


----------



## OneMoar (Oct 8, 2022)

my psu has a 10 year warranty ?
why would I care
also most units are not zero fan but are hybrid and have a switch to toggle the fan mode
the most pointless thread of the week award goes to this one
go home people


----------



## Dr. Dro (Oct 8, 2022)

Wow this thread soured fast. Most of the the argumentation probably would be best summed up to personal taste. You know, Coke vs. Pepsi.

High capacity, fully fanless convection cooled PSUs will probably be achievable once there are enough advances in conversion efficiency, until then I personally don't mind turning the fan on a bit. Such models already exist, but they are few and mostly expensive


----------



## Night (Oct 8, 2022)

Still using the Corsair AX 860 for almost 10 years now. It also features zero rpm mode, can't really tell the difference in acoustics because of the additional airflow though. For me it's always a plus because it saves hours and hours on MTBF of the fan, and I see no apparent reason for the fan to spin at all during light loads.


----------



## kambei.7s (Oct 8, 2022)

My experience with "fan stop" model of corsair HX-650 was good, I bought it in 2013 and still use it, I changed configuration three times over that years, hardware is always medium-high (radeon 6870/Radeon 7950/GTX 1060/RX 6600), 5 HDD, 2 ODD etc. I broke warranty plombs after 2 years to clean it better. HX650 It was seasonic based PSU, but not all my expience with seasonic is good, I prefer chieftech.
Cooler even if it start it's very quiet, but I lubricate it a little, after 3 years it started making strange noise on start/stop. I do not like passive cooling hardware, on my experience it degrade faster can suddenly dead. All heat must be blow away with some airflow.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

Athlonite said:


> tell that to Silverstone their RV02 case sucks air in from the back and exhausts it out the top for the PSU so no amount of air movement inside the case will affect that so it's a must to turn off any zero fan speed bs


 So what? You said it yourself, air is still flowing through the PSU and is NOT being trapped. Did you read the manual?

As noted in this Tweaktown review,


> with everything installed, you can see the PSU gets good room to breathe, and the rest of the top allows for all the components to use the airflow from the three 180mm fans, while still allowing the overflow of air to sneak out around the components.



Don't like Tweaktown? Fine, Check out GamersNexus where the Silverstone took the top spot in CPU cooling. Don't like GamersNexus? Fine. Check out Techspot where reviewers like its "Great Thermal Properties". 

I could go on, but this thread is not about the Silverstone case.


----------



## Athlonite (Oct 8, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> So what? You said it yourself, air is still flowing through the PSU and is NOT being trapped. Did you read the manual?
> 
> As noted in this Tweaktown review,
> 
> ...


I don't need to read those reviews I own an RV02 Bill so I know just how good it's case cooling is and I can tell you now that the amount of heat slowly emanating from out of the PSU when it's idle and fan stop has turned of the fan is quite a bit vs not allowing the fan to stop


----------



## kapone32 (Oct 8, 2022)

Athlonite said:


> I don't need to read those reviews I own an RV02 Bill so I know just how good it's case cooling is and I can tell you now that the amount of heat slowly emanating from out of the PSU when it's idle and fan stop has turned of the fan is quite a bit vs not allowing the fan to stop


I had the same case and I can attest to that. Those 2 180mm fans on the bottom had no effect on the PSU.


----------



## Athlonite (Oct 8, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> I had the same case and I can attest to that. Those 2 180mm fans on the bottom had no effect on the PSU.


you mean 3 180mm fans and yes despite the fact they can push 330cfm (if you use the 181AP versions)  through the case they do indeed have no effect on the PSU


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## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

Athlonite said:


> I don't need to read those reviews I own an RV02 Bill so I know just how good it's case cooling is and I can tell you now that the amount of heat slowly emanating from out of the PSU when it's idle and fan stop has turned of the fan is quite a bit vs not allowing the fan to stop


So all those reviewers, including this one, this one, and this one too are all wrong. Got it.  



kapone32 said:


> I had the same case and I can attest to that. Those 2 180mm fans on the bottom had no effect on the PSU.


Not the point. The claim was that the RV02 "traps it" (heat). I posted now, 6 reviews, all extolling the excellent cooling capabilities of that case. Not one reported any issues with heat being "trapped". So if someone has one of these cases where heat is being trapped, it is not the case's fault. 

Now I'm moving on and if anyone wants to keep arguing, I suggesting arguing with the review sites, not me.


----------



## kapone32 (Oct 8, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Now I'm moving on and if anyone wants to keep arguing, I suggesting arguing with the review sites, not me.


I am not trying to argue with anyone. I was just taking a break from Gaming (Iron Harvest Campaign!!!!!!) and wanted to see what was in the forums. I apologize if I made you feel I was arguing.


----------



## Jokii (Oct 8, 2022)

Don't see the point of zero-rpm mode PSUs, when you can just use a fanless PSU. 

PSUs don't emit _that much_ heat and they can easily be cooled with some case airflow. It's only an issue with sustained very high loads, which affects a small minority of PC users.


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Oct 8, 2022)

Jokii said:


> Don't see the point of zero-rpm mode PSUs, when you can just use a fanless PSU.
> 
> PSUs don't emit _that much_ heat and they can easily be cooled with a some case airflow. It's only an issue with sustained very high loads, which affects a small minority of PC users.


I think all that gives people what they need, and that is a choice. Can pick fanless, 0 rpm low/idle or like mine upgraded and always running. 
Simply Because, I have a specific use for the PSU.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> I apologize if I made you feel I was arguing.


Not at all. We're good. 



Jokii said:


> It's only an issue with sustained very high loads, which affects a small minority of PC users.


I think it important to point out "very high loads" is relative. If the load is 300W and you have an 80% efficient 350W PSU, that's a very high load and the PSU's fan may need to spin at full speed (and loudness) to keep the PSU's components adequately cooled. If you have that same 300W load and a quality 90% efficient 750W PSU, the PSU's fan will likely be able to spin much slower (and quieter) or maybe no spin at all. 

As a _general_ rule, PSUs with higher capacities tend to have larger heat sinks. With the significantly greater surface areas for the fins, the bigger PSU does not need as much air flow. 



Jokii said:


> PSUs don't emit _that much_ heat and they can easily be cooled with some case airflow.


Depending on the case, that is true. But some cases have an isolated and enclosed (except for the intake and exhaust vents) chamber for the PSU. Case cooling in those cases does not affect PSU cooling. And in turn, PSU heat does not affect or contribute to heat inside the computer case.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 8, 2022)

These zero rpm PSUs certainly have a market, like institutional/enterprise/government use. Those are situations that many people in PC discussion forums (not just here at TPU) repeatedly ignore or discount.

It's not like this zero rpm fan feature is designed for every PC 24x7.

No one can please everyone all the time.

However some people do care about this stuff, like the US Federal government that has energy efficiency mandates for computing equipment. If a PC power supply unit can be adequately cooled by natural airflow, why burn up extra electricity running fans unnecessarily.

While that might seem insignificant to Joe Consumer and his super-ultra-buffed out gaming computer and its 3 GHz, 600W graphics card, it makes more sense to that IT manager at the General Accounting Office supporting ten thousand desktop PCs.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> If a PC power supply unit can be adequately cooled by natural airflow



I would guess that they rely upon the case fans and would not do so well in still air.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I would guess that they rely upon the case fans and would not do so well in still air.



My assumption is that the PSU engineers who design these features test them in a variety of conditions.

I still don't understand why a number of people in these kind of forums seem to think that these are designed by pulling some random schematics out of a hat. The people who design PSUs for a living have advanced degrees in electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, physics, etc. from technical programs at some of the top universities in the world. As well as years (sometimes decades) or experience.

Remember that a typical ATX PSU is a box with metal walls on four sides, one of which is directed to the outside. Case fans aren't going to generate much air circulation inside the PSU.

It's also worth pointing out that notebook "wall-wart" style PSUs don't have fans.

Pick up your smartphone. Then tell us you don't believe that electronics can be cooled without fans.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

The fan comes on when the internal temperature gets high, so it will be fine in still air, just not zero rpm.

Case fans will produce an over or under pressure in the case and this will induce a flow through the power supply.

A laptop power supply is around one tenth the power of a PC power supply and has the distinct advantage of outputting a voltage higher than 12V which helps reduce heat production.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> The fan comes on when the internal temperature gets high, so it will be fine in still air, just not zero rpm.



Yes, and who programs fan curves in a PSU? Again, PSU engineers pick when fans come on, what temperature, what speed, what curve to follow, etc.



> A laptop power supply is around one tenth the power of a PC power supply and has the distinct advantage of outputting a voltage higher than 12V which helps reduce heat production.



Really? What voltage is my USB-C charger outputting? The one that charges my Acer notebook via the Thunderbolt 3 port? Or MacBooks? 

I know Apple marketed 85W power adapters for their more powerful notebooks. I'm guessing that's not the highest capacity external AC adapter on the market.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

I have one that is 24V, but I can't tell you what voltage yours are outputting.

Since there are 850W PC power supplies, the 85W fits the factor of 10.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I have one that is 24V, but I can't tell you what voltage yours are outputting.



Ah, one USB-C charger says 15V / 2A and 20V / 1.5A amongst other things. The same charger works with my iPad mini and iPhone.

Not sure about the other USB-C chargers. I've collected many over the years.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Ah, it says 15V / 2A and 20V / 1.5A amongst other things.



So 30W supplies, not so hard to cool.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> It's also worth pointing out that notebook "wall-wart" style PSUs don't have fans.


Or large (if any) heat sinks or vents. 

Adding to your point about saving energy costs, if you've ever been in a large office area full of cubicles - especially those with shorter walls, even very quiet fans can make a lot of noise when there are dozens and dozens (counting case and CPU fans too) of fans spinning at once. And since the PSU is directly mounted to the back of the computer case, even a quality case does little to suppress a PSU's fan noise. 

And while government bean counters have a duty to avoid wasting taxpayer's money, private sector bean counters worry about eating into profits and making money for their investors too. 



Shrek said:


> A laptop power supply is a about one tenth the power of a PC power supply.


This is true but that does not mean it is not affected by heat. One must also remember a laptop power supply must be able to support running the laptop and charging the battery at the same time. 



Shrek said:


> 19V is typical



Nearly irrelevant because it is not really about the voltage - but the current/wattage along with efficiency. My 15" i5 MSI is rated for 90W. It would not be wise to toss something over it when running. 

I don't see the point in discussing tiny USB chargers. We are getting way WAY OT now.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> So 30W supplies, not so hard to cool.



Right.

So let's say a power supply uses 100W of power at moment A. It could be cooled without fans. That's what the zero fan rpm mode is for, right?

In the same way, if you can just open the window to cool your living room and keep the fan off, that's good enough, yes?

So if a 500W PSU has a 100W load and runs with the fans off, that's appropriate because the heat generated can dissipate without the need for a fan.

And ultimately, isn't this the same feature as a graphics card with a 0 dB fan mode? When the GPU fan(s) won't spin until the graphics chip temperature reaches a certain threshold?


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Nearly irrelevant because it is not really about the voltage - but the current/wattage along with efficiency.



Higher voltage means less current (for the same power) and so less losses.



cvaldes said:


> So if a 500W PSU has a 100W load and runs with the fans off, that's appropriate because the heat generated can dissipate without the need for a fan.



I believe some zero rpm supplies can do 400W or more without their fan since they rely on the case fans.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I believe some zero rpm supplies can do 400W or more without their fan since they rely on the case fans.



The PSU fans kick on when they reach a temperature threshold, not the specific presence of case fans. And remember, the case fans themselves have their own performance, fan curves, whatever. Just having a fan running in the case is meaningless since it could be operated in a manner that doesn't significantly change airflow inside the PSU.

When running a Seasonic unit in hybrid on mode (with the fan grille directed up), the heat is actually rising upward from the grille opening. Ventilation in the case would move that heat away for the most part.

Again, PSU engineers try this in a variety of conditions but they mostly program the fan to come on based on an internal temperature threshold, not whether or not there's a case fan present.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> Higher voltage means less current (for the same power) and so less losses.


 No. In a power supply, efficiency determines loss. 90W is 90W. 80% efficiency is 80% efficiency.

90W x .8 = 72 with 18W lost in the form of heat. Note voltage is not in that equation. It does not matter if that 90W was achieved by 10V x 9A or 20V x 4.5A. Any differences in efficiency will be insignificant. Yes, there are exceptions but once again, exceptions don't make the rule. 

Sadly, it is a common misconception that higher voltage results in better efficiency. That is just not true in the vast majority of circumstances. Twice the voltage will transfer twice the power, but the wattage consumed (and watts wasted) will be the same. And I note throughout the world, consumers pay for the watts (or kilowatts) consumed. 



Shrek said:


> I believe some zero rpm supplies can do 400W or more without their fan since they rely on the case fans.


Sure! Why not? I mean Seasonic makes a 600W fanless PSU. And clearly, as you noted, it relies on air flow from the case cooling.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Sadly, it is a common misconception that higher voltage results in better efficiency.



Then how do you explain that the same power supply is more efficient on 240V than 120V?

I'm just so tired of arguing the whole time.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I'm just so tired of arguing the whole time.


 Me too.

I already said any difference will be insignificant.

But since you believe the whopping 1% difference from 90.5% to 91.5% at 50% load illustrated in your totally generic chart validates your claim and nullifies everything else, then fine! You win. Wire your home with 230V.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

10% less heat generated... and this thread is all about getting rid of the heat; the real issue is at high load when 20% less heat is generated (for the attached graph).

The reason that Tesla won the war of the currents is he could transmit at high voltage (using AC) while Edison could not (using DC), and the resulting losses were too high.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> (for the attached graph).


How silly of me not to notice all that important information about heat in your graph.  I already said you win. Funny how you have to keep arguing about it after saying you are tired of arguing. 



Shrek said:


> The reason that Tesla won the war of the currents is he could transmit at high voltage (using AC) while Edison could not (using DC), and the resulting losses were too high.


That's not why. Tesla (Westinghouse actually) won because generating AC is much easier, less complicated and cheaper to produce and can much more easily used to transport energy over long distances.


----------



## Shrek (Oct 8, 2022)

Exactly... 'much more easily used to transport energy over long distances'; and why might that be so?

Hint, power loss: P = I^2 R

One wants to get the current down (for a given power), and one does that by using high voltage; how does one get high voltage, by using a transformer, and that requires AC.


Yes, I am tired of arguing; just as I get tired at work, but that does not stop me from getting the job done.

I am sure you have much to teach me; I am here to learn, not argue, not to be right, not to win, but to learn.

Don't worry about missing the graph, we are here to figure things out together, not battle one ego against the other; I remain acutely aware that you will sometimes find error in what I say, and for that I thank you.


----------



## Athlonite (Oct 9, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> So all those reviewers, including this one, this one, and this one too are all wrong. Got it.


None of those reviews used a Zero rpm fan PSU Bill and that was my point you really need to have the fan going all the time otherwise you're looking at 45+ degrees celsius (depending on ambient temps) temps in your PSU at idle not something I want happening


----------



## Bill_Bright (Oct 9, 2022)

Athlonite said:


> None of those reviews used a Zero rpm fan PSU Bill and that was my point you really need to have the fan going all the time otherwise you're looking at 45+ degrees celsius


I realize that was your point. I was simply illustrating that, in most (as in non-extreme) scenarios, adequate cooling can easily be achieved without a fan - much or even all of the time. HTPCs used a PVRs commonly use totally passive cooling. 

I don't know where you pulled 45°C at idle from. IMO and experience that is far from most realistic real-world scenarios. But yes, "IF" your ambient (room) temps are uncomfortably high (for us humans), then 45°C at idle might be realistic. Regardless, you seem to think 45°C (113°F) is something to worry about. It is not at all! Not in terms of safety. Especially for a power supply where mains voltages are present and doing a lot of work. Even heat sensitive electronic devices can easily handle 45°C and considerably higher without damaging or even long-term effects. Yes, output stability and regulation might start to temporarily degrade - though I note many of the better PSUs today are rated to operate up to 50°C. And we always recommend buying a quality PSU, right?

But if a user's ambient temps are routinely that high, get an AC! Or work (and especially play) in the cool of the night.



> you really need to have the fan going all the time


And my point is, *no you don't "NEED"* to have the fan going all the time. At least not most users. This is another example of where users believe they know more than the highly educated and experienced electrical engineers and designers - folks who have decades and decades of established and widely published technical data, and computers to crunch the numbers, at their disposal.

You may personally "want" to have the fan going all the time. But that is totally different than "needing" it. 

Do you really think any legitimate engineer, designer, manufacturer worth their salt is going to allow a PSU's temperature to reach critical levels _before_ turning on the fan? Of course they aren't. Those fans are going to start spinning (at first, slowly and quietly) well before any damaging thermal thresholds are reached. If demands remain high causing the PSUs internal temps to rise further, the fan spins faster. Easy peasy.

Now "IF" the user is in such a high-temperature ambient environment where cooling fans "need" to spin full time, that is NOT a common scenario. And "IF" the demands on the PSU are such that, even in an air conditioned room, the fans "need" to spin full time, then perhaps the user/builder bought the wrong size PSU for the job, and should have gone with a more capable PSU to put the normal (most of the time) load/capacity ratio back down to where it belongs; closer to 50%. And that is on the user/builder - not the PSU, or the case. 



Athlonite said:


> not something I want happening


You clearly bought a top quality case, @Athlonite. And I applaud you for doing your homework and making an excellent choice. But it is important not to confuse (or to impose on to others) personal wants and desires with actual technical facts and needs. That's all I'm saying on this.


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## Mussels (Oct 10, 2022)

Jokii said:


> Don't see the point of zero-rpm mode PSUs, when you can just use a fanless PSU.
> 
> PSUs don't emit _that much_ heat and they can easily be cooled with some case airflow. It's only an issue with sustained very high loads, which affects a small minority of PC users.


They can when you throw an Ampere GPU on them or a modern intel or AM5 CPU


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## Zach_01 (Oct 10, 2022)

Jokii said:


> Don't see the point of zero-rpm mode PSUs, when you can just use a fanless PSU.
> 
> PSUs don't emit _that much_ heat and they can easily be cooled with some case airflow. It's only an issue with sustained very high loads, which affects a small minority of PC users.


PC operation today is very dynamic in terms of performance and power draw. You can easily go with a factor of 10 between idle and full workload power. But even the majority of PC are at about the x3~5.
So when a PC is idling or doing very light stuff will consume around 100W (±20%). So at around 100W with a gold (90~91% efficiency) PSU the heat from losses of conversion will be around 10W. Easy...
When gaming it can go from 300W up to 500+W so then the heat from conversion is 30~50+W. The 40~50W cant be cooled passively without damaging the PCU components in the long run of years.


Enter zero fan rpm function.


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## Jokii (Oct 10, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> When gaming it can go from 300W up to 500+W so then the heat from conversion is 30~50+W. The 40~50W cant be cooled passively without damaging the PCU components in the long run of years.


First of all, sustained loads over 400W are not very common, if you're looking at the entire population of PC users.
Second, just because the PSU itself is fanless, it doesn't mean that it's cooled with no airflow. The higher CPU/GPU loads typically result in higher case airflow, which cools the PSU as well, with proper installation.
Third, the fanless PSUs on the market are usually more efficient than 90% at high loads, at least on 230V. I don't see any current models lower than Platinum.

Finally, I'm not saying that fanless PSUs are suitable for every need or every budget, but I do think they're underrated and underused overall in the PC market.
I also believe they're ever so slightly better at passive cooling than fanned PSUs in zero-rpm mode, because they're designed like that from the ground up.
You pay a small price premium and you need some common sense to install one properly. But in turn you get almost certainly less noise and the peace of mind of not having to deal with another fan, which will have to be serviced sooner or later (and it's not as easy as swapping a case fan).


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## Shrek (Oct 10, 2022)

There is even a sealed PC power supply where the hot components dump heat to the supply case that has fins.

Amazon.com: SilverStone Technology SST-NJ450-SXL Small Form Factor 100% Fanless Fully Modular SFX-L 450 W 80 Plus Platinum Power Supply : Electronics

Coil whine can be an even bigger issue than fan noise and this supply overcomes that also.


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## Mussels (Oct 10, 2022)

Zach_01 said:


> PC operation today is very dynamic in terms of performance and power draw. You can easily go with a factor of 10 between idle and full workload power. But even the majority of PC are at about the x3~5.
> So when a PC is idling or doing very light stuff will consume around 100W (±20%). So at around 100W with a gold (90~91% efficiency) PSU the heat from losses of conversion will be around 10W. Easy...
> When gaming it can go from 300W up to 500+W so then the heat from conversion is 30~50+W. The 40~50W cant be cooled passively without damaging the PCU components in the long run of years.
> 
> ...


My PC is very far to the 'efficient' side of a modern PC with undervolted 5800x and 3090, my idle is around 60W and my load is 400W - undervolted. With everything blasting to the moon it can hit 600W

Just reinforcing what you're saying, that literally 10x difference from idle to load is entirely possible on stock systems these days, a 40 series GPU with 12/13 gen intel or AM5 can go from 50W to 800W easily



Jokii said:


> First of all, sustained loads over 400W are not very common, if you're looking at the entire population of PC users.


Anyone with an ampere system, a modern intel system, or both, is going to pass 400W.


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## Jokii (Oct 11, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Anyone with an ampere system, a modern intel system, or both, is going to pass 400W.


With a high end CPU and GPU both loaded, sure. Otherwise it's less likely. CPU load alone won't get you to 400W even with a 11900K or a 12900K (unless overclocked). High end GPU load alone, maybe with some GPUs (didn't check).
I'm not disputing that it can happen, just that it's not a typical scenario for a PC. Your perception is probably skewed by focusing on high end gaming setups, but those are not representative of most PCs out there.


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## Mussels (Oct 11, 2022)

Jokii said:


> With a high end CPU and GPU both loaded, sure. Otherwise it's less likely. CPU load alone won't get you to 400W even with a 11900K or a 12900K (unless overclocked). High end GPU load alone, maybe with some GPUs (didn't check).
> I'm not disputing that it can happen, just that it's not a typical scenario for a PC. *Your perception is probably skewed by focusing on high end gaming setups, but those are not representative of most PCs out there.*


When the CPU alone can draw 250W at stock, yes an intel system can hit 400W.
You dont even need a GPU to make up 150W in a desktop PC, just slap in a bunch of hard drives

High wattage PSU's are for high wattage PC's - that's still a seperate topic to the fan off feature


Fan off options are for people who want a PC that's silent at idle, which is not exclusive to gaming PCs at all


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## Jokii (Oct 11, 2022)

Sigh... Here's the latest Steam hardware survey: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
Most gamers have 6-core CPUs and xx60 series cards. They're not seeing sustained 400W loads.
99% of people who don't load their GPUs much (non-gamers) are not seeing sustained 400W loads.
Hard drives... come on, man.
Anyway, I thought I was pretty clear a few posts ago already, so I'll just stop here.


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## Mussels (Oct 11, 2022)

And?
How is that relevant at all?


Those people already have power supplies.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 11, 2022)

Mussels said:


> And?
> How is that relevant at all?
> 
> 
> Those people already have power supplies.


I believe he is saying that most of PCs can run completely fanless PSUs, but I want to know who of those users with the old or low budget systems would want to buy an expensive Platinum+ passive PSU.

These are really for SFF systems


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## AleXXX666 (Oct 11, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I don't mind fan noise so long as it is steady and not too loud; noticeable variations can be very disturbing. A fan should ramp up and down slowly.


exactly! that's why I started to recommend to replace Intel box cooler. And friend of mine noticed that sh*t too - very "old" fans was steady noise so I even liked that mur-mur spinning sound lol but then things have changed and Intel box fans became sh*tty noisy because of sound variations. AMD Ryzen box fans were issued by this plague too. LGA 1700 box fans are fixed by now, but everything before were "appropriate" only for deaf people lol


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