# AMD Unlikely to Fix DX9 Games Bugged by Adrenalin Driver



## btarunr (Jan 1, 2018)

AMD ended 2017 with its year-end mega driver release, the Radeon Software Adrenalin Edition (17.12), which introduced a large number of new features. The drivers, incidentally, also inadvertently caused bugs with some 10-year old games running on the older DirectX 9 API. When AMD Radeon users took to Reddit, and other tech forums to report these issues, AMD responded on its official support forums that it is "unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue."

Among the games affected, old as they may seem, are AAA blockbusters, including "C&C3 Tiberium Wars," "C&C3 Kane's Wrath," "C&C Red Alert 3," "C&C Red Alert 3 Upising," "C&C4 Tiberian Twilight," "Battle for Middle Earth 1-2," and "The Witcher Enhanced Edition." AMD blames its inability to fix these issues to outdated API models. The company's full statement reads "This title is from 2007, so we are unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue, which is most likely caused by outdated API modules."



 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## R-T-B (Jan 1, 2018)

NVIDIA runs them fine somehow...

Also, this post is missing a negative near the break...


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## SirMango (Jan 1, 2018)

This must be the Reddit being referred to: 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7na5ws


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## Darksword (Jan 1, 2018)

I'm also having issues running Sim City 2000 with this new driver.


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## evernessince (Jan 1, 2018)

AMD, why are you so stupid.  People love to play old games, there's even a whole group of PC players devoted to it.  This is just like announcing "Hey guys we don't care about you so don't buy our cards!".  Backwards compatibility has been one of the tenents of PC gaming.


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## ZoneDymo (Jan 1, 2018)

tsk tsk AMD, these games are games people love to play... they are still being sold, fix this nonsense.
Does anyone even know what issues are actually present?

EDIT, nvm just read the post, games not even starting up...thats a preeeeetty big problem there, yeah that needs to be fixed.


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## natr0n (Jan 1, 2018)

The problem is the amd/radeon/whoever people are just collecting paychecks and not doing their jobs. As if to say "It's not my problem".


My next card will be nvidia even if i have to save up for months.


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## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

natr0n said:


> The problem is the amd/radeon/whoever people are just collecting paychecks and not doing their jobs. As if to say "It's not my problem".
> 
> 
> My next card will be nvidia even if i have to save up for months.



Same here, while waiting for next gen GPU to drop.

At the same time I am waiting for those angry AMD mobs show up to blame TPU for passing this on as "news" because as we all know from them, "AMD can do no wrong, it is always someone else's fault"


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## newtekie1 (Jan 1, 2018)

So their latest drivers broke games that have worked fine for over a decade, and then they refuse to fix it and try to blame the games for the problems?!? Nice.


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## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

newtekie1 said:


> So their latest drivers broke games that have worked fine for over a decade, and then they refuse to fix it and try to blame the games for the problems?!? Nice.



Some (quite a lot) TPU members disagree with you.    







Meanwhile where is my popcorn


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## dj-electric (Jan 1, 2018)

Like Radeon team needed more bad PR at this point.


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## yotano211 (Jan 1, 2018)

I still play some of those games. I think I send about 10-15 hours per month on old C and C games.


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## ShurikN (Jan 1, 2018)

When I read the title I thought it was 50% of DX9 titles. Turns out it's 5 games. Install older drivers when you want to play those titles and case closed.
Although I would hate it if I had to rollback drivers every time I wanted to play these games, and the fact that they managed to screw it somehow is inexcusable, it's also not the end of the world.


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## pigulici (Jan 1, 2018)

This is a bad move, well, my money will go to nvidia , then...


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## R-T-B (Jan 1, 2018)

ShurikN said:


> When I read the title I thought it was 50% of DX9 titles. Turns out it's 5 games. Install older drivers when you want to play those titles and case closed.
> Although I would hate it if I had to rollback drivers every time I wanted to play these games, and the fact that they managed to screw it somehow is inexcusable, it's also not the end of the world.



Until you have a card that requires newer drivers, then it's broke for good.


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## Solaris17 (Jan 1, 2018)

pigulici said:


> This is a bad move, well, my money will go to nvidia , then...



nvidia has there share of incompatible games, we just cry less about it.


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## dicktracy (Jan 1, 2018)

AMD is a CPU-first company. It's no doubt that their Radeon department is severely starved in resource. It also makes sense why Raja left that ship ASAP because AMD's main goal is to bring back their CPUs to former glory over developing a superior graphics solution. Sad thing for us enthusiasts is that they're going to hold Radeon hostage while their competitiveness against Nvidia diminishes every year.


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## pigulici (Jan 1, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> nvidia has there share of incompatible games, we just cry less about it.


Well, at least yesterday I was able to play Witcher 1 with the last nvidia driver, on win 10 FCU, nothing is perfect in  life, but the response from AMD it show how far from real life are some from this company.  In past I was a supporter of amd, they just lied/broke promises so many times, I still remember the Fusion thing,  now I just want something to work, don't care so much about the label.


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## RejZoR (Jan 1, 2018)

Congrats AMD, you lazy incompetent imbeciles. You just ensured with this I'll NEVER ever buy Radeon again. I play old games regularly and if you broke a MASSIVE range of DX9 games which I still play (3/4 of the listed ones), that means I cannot afford to buy Radeon anymore even if it's by some miracle the best shit again. I mean, why would I if I'll have garbage experience with those games now? Yay, good business model right there AMD, you don't have much of a market share as it is and you just sacked away a part of people who buy top end cards and also still like to play old games.

Adrenalin release wasn't even all that good. All they did was introduce bunch of overlay features I'll probably never use or need but in return they broke freaking DX9 games. Whoever was in charge for this release QA should be fired.

I was just praising AMD how much better software they have than NVIDIA (NVIDIA's software just is an outdated buggy shit) and then they pull a stunt like this. Really AMD, really? I hope Intel goes into discrete graphics as a 3rd player now they have Raja. Graphics market is getting depressive at this point...


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## Readlight (Jan 1, 2018)

Witcher 1 game engine is old, its also best, cheapest game. i also own it.


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## R-T-B (Jan 1, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> nvidia has there share of incompatible games, we just cry less about it.



I've yet to encounter one I could blame on the GPU driver with the exception of some gamebryo games that honestly, were coded horribly from day 1 and there are workarounds available.


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## RejZoR (Jan 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've yet to encounter one I could blame on the GPU driver with the exception of some gamebryo games that honestly, were coded horribly from day 1 and there are workarounds available.



Only game I'm aware of being incompatible with NVIDIA is Midtown Madness 1. That game started having problems the moment GeForce cards were released, something to do with rendering method (gets flying and flickering polygons all over the screen). It's possible it got fixed since so much time has passed, GPU's changed and there have been a lot of drivers in between. It's possible it fixed itself on its own. Gotta try it one day, but I know it didn't work from day I got GeForce 2...


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## wiak (Jan 1, 2018)

real men copy the working driver files into the game folder and play the game like a sensei


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## kruk (Jan 1, 2018)

> we are unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue



IMHO, at this point they should just open source the Windows driver. The community would then be able to help fix bugs, improve the driver and they would save a lot on resources. Just look at their open source Linux driver - *it's superb*! It's also one of the major reasons I'm using a Radeon card.


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## zlobby (Jan 1, 2018)

Lol! If this was a Star Wars movie, the title would be 'The rage of the shilling bots'.

'Whaaaa! I'll never buy AMD again!' Well, don't. I couldn't care any less. With so much brain capacity you deserve what you get.


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## MuhammedAbdo (Jan 1, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> nvidia has there share of incompatible games, we just cry less about it.


I have NEVER encountered a game that refuses to work on NVIDIA Pascal or Maxwell hardware, and I play TONS of old games. Sure there is the occasional bug, but a game that ouright refuses to work? NEVER.


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## rtwjunkie (Jan 1, 2018)

ShurikN said:


> When I read the title I thought it was 50% of DX9 titles. Turns out it's 5 games. Install older drivers when you want to play those titles and case closed.
> Although I would hate it if I had to rollback drivers every time I wanted to play these games, and the fact that they managed to screw it somehow is inexcusable, it's also not the end of the world.


Except, in addition to what the wise frog said, it may not be only hardware limited in the future either. MS seems to think it needs a new OS every 6 months now, with regular WDDM updates. 

The point you can roll back to will keep moving forward, so that rollback is not a solution.


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

There is a large amount of retarded AMD fanboys out there who are coming to AMD's defense with excuses like "This is 2018, move along, quit crying" etc. which I believe is pathetic. This doesn't help consumers of AMD products, what this does is force them to switch over to the green side, and never look back again.

This can not be a legit excuse for not supporting older software. And even when DX9 was current-gen, AMD's support at launch for plenty of games were shaky, and there are countless games that still run with sub-par performance to this date, like ARMA 3.

After paying for the product, it's not the end user's headache that AMD's card has terrible performance due to another brand's meddling middleware (when applicable) in gaming titles. And some developers made it obvious that AMD (which back then was ATi) wasn't very cooperative. And now, they are telling people that the software/games they own isn't worth the effort to be made playable? From the open-source-good-guy, AMD has suddenly become the bait and switch company.

Take Vega Frontier Edition, for instance. A card, that was specifically aimed at "Graphical Computing" is now being touted as the "Blockchain Pioneer" in a matter of months. Steve over at GamersNexus can tell you more about that, or Linus.


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## Prima.Vera (Jan 1, 2018)

wiak said:


> real men copy the working driver files into the game folder and play the game like a sensei


Not sure if that works...


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## yeeeeman (Jan 1, 2018)

Why don't you just use Crimson drivers instead? Why do you always need to be on latest driver? I haven't updated my GTX950M drivers for over a year and it's all been fine...


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

Prima.Vera said:


> Not sure if that works...



It may work, it may not. There is a thread over at Guru3D that is no longer maintained in the hopes of achieving the same objective. But if you're using .dll files from an older driver, there's a good chance that the game will simply crash because of different forks of the drivers being incompatible.



yeeeeman said:


> Why don't you just use Crimson drivers instead? Why do you always need to be on latest driver? I haven't updated my GTX950M drivers for over a year and it's all been fine...



Yeah, why not just stick to outdated drivers? Drivers that do not have compatibility with the latest OS updates, newer game profiles, performance improvements/fixes? While you're at it, why not just stick to Windows 98?

Facepalm dot jpeg


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## MuhammedAbdo (Jan 1, 2018)

FineWine keeps getting better and better LOL! Just shows how much of that myth is actually BS. And the comments of AMD fanatics about not caring about the issue is *DISGUISTING*! This 101 PC folks. You can't break backward compatibility of PC games and expect a free pass.


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## champsilva (Jan 1, 2018)

yeeeeman said:


> Why don't you just use Crimson drivers instead? Why do you always need to be on latest driver? I haven't updated my GTX950M drivers for over a year and it's all been fine...



Meaning, you're still using Windows XP right?

So let's say you have a 2018 game, Star Wars Battlefront III for instance, a new driver was released and you loved this game, but you also loves The Witcher 1, so, evertime you want to play either of this games you will have to uninstall driver, install older one to play TW1, reinstall newer to play SWBF3?


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## iO (Jan 1, 2018)

Oh no, AMD doesnt want to fix again what the game developers screwed up more than a decade ago...


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

MuhammedAbdo said:


> FineWine keeps getting better and better LOL! Just shows how much of that myth is actually BS. And the comments of AMD fanatics about not caring about the issue is *DISGUISTING*! This 101 PC folks. You can't break backward compatibility of PC games and expect a free pass.



The HD 7000 series and the R 200/300 series of cards did see a lot of improvement in performance as the drivers for them matured, allowing them to outperform their original nvidia counterparts substantially in some of the more recent games, till Polaris and VEGA cards became a priority.

You will not see reviewers benching cards like the GTX 770, GTX 780 or the GTX 780 Ti in their benchmark suite, but you'll see a couple of R9 200 cards. The AMD cards from the HD 7000/R 200/R 300 did age better. But the same can't be said for the Fury lineup. So I wouldn't pass off FineWine as simply a myth. I myself had a GTX 770 and a HD 7950 side by side and I saw how things unfolded.

If TechPowerUp wants another scoop, I can give them one right now. Some keen soul tried asking AMD to add HBCC support for the Fury/Fury X cards. Here's how they responded:



Source: Here​And ever since the RX 400 series of cards launched, older cards have seen a drastic loss in performance in newer titles. You can say all you want about the newer architecture being more efficient in tasks like Tessellation and all, the performance figures in some of the more recent titles just don't add up. Planned obsolescence is something both nvidia and AMD are guilty of, it's just that how and when it happens is relative to how the ball is rolling.



iO said:


> Oh no, AMD doesnt want to fix what the game developers screwed up a more than a decade ago...



Yeah, AMD doesn't want to fix what developers screwed up more than a decade ago.. only that if you uninstall AMD's Latest Adrenalin drivers, and install an older driver, it un-screws whatever the developers managed to screw up a decade ago. Isn't that odd?


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## MuhammedAbdo (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> But the same can't be said for the Fury lineup.


Yup, GameGPU just published an article about 2017 games, 980Ti is 30% faster than FuryX @1080p, 1440p and 4K. Even a 970 is faster than 290X.
http://gamegpu.com/test-video-cards/podvedenie-itogov-po-graficheskim-resheniyam-2017-goda


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## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> Some keen soul tried asking AMD to add HBCC support for the Fury/Fury X cards.


Wasn't HBCC a feature added to GCN 1.3 chips? Don't confuse it with delta color compression which was added in GCN 1.2.


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## GenericAMDFan (Jan 1, 2018)

zlobby said:


> Lol! If this was a Star Wars movie, the title would be 'The rage of the shilling bots'.
> 
> 'Whaaaa! I'll never buy AMD again!' Well, don't. I couldn't care any less. With so much brain capacity you deserve what you get.



https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Please bookmark this link so next time you won't make this crucial mistake of ignoring the argument and attacking the character instead, I know I know it's always easier to attack people instead of arguments.

Fact is that AMD is being sloppy here there is no excuse for this and it very well warrants the switch to Nvidia.


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

MuhammedAbdo said:


> Yup, GameGPU just published an article about 2017 games, 980Ti is 30% faster than FuryX @1080p, 1440p and 4K. Even a 970 is faster than 290X.
> http://gamegpu.com/test-video-cards/podvedenie-itogov-po-graficheskim-resheniyam-2017-goda



GameGPU IMO publishes sketchy stuff at times. Try TechSpot, they did a better job on demonstrating this. Looking at the suite of games GameGPU used to bench, I am not at all surprised by the outcome. But at the end of the day, it shouldn't be the end user's headache about sponsored games having lower performance on specific hardware.


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## TheDeeGee (Jan 1, 2018)

So paying a premium for Nvidia pay off


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Wasn't HBCC a feature added to GCN 1.3 chips? Don't confuse it with delta color compression which was added in GCN 1.2.



HBCC or High-Bandwidth Cache Controller is a VEGA only feature (at the moment) and wasn't even around when GCN 1.3 came out. Not sure who's confused here.

When AMD first demonstrated VEGA's HBCC capabilities, they explicitly mentioned that the VEGA engineering sample wasn't running an optimized driver and was using the Fury drivers, or something of that sort. HBCC has relations to HBM, which Fury the has.


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## Space Lynx (Jan 1, 2018)

After this article I will indeed be passing on AMD Vega 2 and Ryzen 2 build I was planning. Man, I was really excited to go back to the red team just for the nostalgia of my poor teenage years. I am older now and even though I wish I had more options, I guess I will just stick with Intel and Nvidia yet again. Ugh.


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## SIGSEGV (Jan 1, 2018)

I lol'ed hard to this news. Personally, if I were AMD, I will do the same move. 
keep moving forward, haha


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

To be honest, this could just be the AMD rep misunderstanding/misinterpreting the situation. It has happened before.

This isn't the first time an AMD rep has done something like this.

VSR or Virtual Super Resolution was introduced with AMD's Catalyst Omega drivers, 14.12 for the first time. It's support was limited to AMD's R9 290/290X initially, and was added to Tonga/Fury cards later. Though the Fiji and the Tonga cards could VSR up to 4K, the Hawaii cards were only limited to 3200X1800. AMD's official response was that the older hardware lacks hardware scalers, and that the support can not be ported over to them at all/same extent. Sounds legit.

..till, some people managed to figure out registry values and enabled VSR on older cards, the HD 7000 series to be specific, and even though the HD 5000/HD 6000 series of cards didn't officially have the option visible in AMD's Graphical Control Settings, they had the ability to use VSR too. Only then, AMD's official response changed. But shockingly, one of their reps said that they will be bringing support for VSR to only R9 280/R9 280X cards, and not on the older HD 7000 cards, and that R9 280/280X cards have this certain scaler(!) present that the HD 7970 doesn't. Then people literally ripped him a new one, and eventually VSR support came to HD 7000 cards too.

So, I wouldn't say that AMD won't fix the issues just because on of their reps said so. But if what the rep said is the approach AMD's taking, undoubtedly, it'd be a step backwards.

Update: S3r1ous over at Guru3D forums has managed to find something that could also be the cause.

Apparently, The Windows 10 OS Update, *KB4051963 (OS Build 16299.98)* brings the following changes/fixes:

*

*

*

*​So it might be worthwhile to update your Windows 10 installation if you're facing issues. Though that still doesn't change the fact that the crashes go away when you switch to an older driver, and the appalling response from AMD's rep.
​


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## HD64G (Jan 1, 2018)

I am almost sure that this will be fixed. The AMD rep who responded did very bad imho ruining the company's name in gamers community. A solution should be easy for a few games. If they don't fix it or even propose a walkaround not needing going back and installing older drivers, it will hurt AMD for sure. This response was clearly bad marketing.


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## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> HBCC or High-Bandwidth Cache Controller is a VEGA only feature (at the moment) and wasn't even around when GCN 1.3 came out. Not sure who's confused here.
> 
> When AMD first demonstrated VEGA's HBCC capabilities, they explicitly mentioned that the VEGA engineering sample wasn't running an optimized driver and was using the Fury drivers, or something of that sort. HBCC has relations to HBM, which Fury the has.


The driver might impact how it performs but, just because it's in a modified Fury driver for pre-release and both cards use HBM (remember, Vega has HBM2 not HBM1,) doesn't mean Fury has the hardware to handle it. HBM likely has very little to do with it and probably boils down more to the memory controller effectively handling where and how video data gets stored based on a driver setting. Also my mistake, it was added in GCN 1.4, not 1.3 but, that is beside the point. There are likely hardware limitations that prevent applying this to older GPUs. It's like asking why GCN 1.1 cards don't support delta color compression and why the driver can't be updated to use it: because the hardware doesn't support it.


Romulus2K4 said:


> VSR or Virtual Super Resolution was introduced with AMD's Catalyst Omega drivers, 14.12 for the first time. It's support was limited to AMD's R9 290/290X initially, and was added to Tonga/Fury cards later. Though the Fiji and the Tonga cards could VSR up to 4K, the Hawaii cards were only limited to 3200X1800. AMD's official response was that the older hardware lacks hardware scalers, and that the support can not be ported over to them at all/same extent. Sounds legit.


VSR is a very different thing though because it was more of a matter of "how well will the GPU drive it," not a "can the GPU even do it." Changes to how video data gets stored tends to require hardware changes due to the latency-sensitive nature of DRAM whereas with VSR, it was more of a "how well will it perform and do we want to expose a setting if it's likely going to run like crap every time." It's kind of like async compute on GCN 1.0. Sure, you can run it but, if it's not going to help and sometimes could cause performance regressions when it is used, why bother enabling it?

...but, if you're still convinced, maybe you should give AMD a call and offer them your expertise to "fix their drivers," since you seem to know how this all works. I'm sure they could use another C developer to work on their drivers.


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## Easo (Jan 1, 2018)

I just bought C&C 3 collection on Steam, damnit.


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## RejZoR (Jan 1, 2018)

zlobby said:


> Lol! If this was a Star Wars movie, the title would be 'The rage of the shilling bots'.
> 
> 'Whaaaa! I'll never buy AMD again!' Well, don't. I couldn't care any less. With so much brain capacity you deserve what you get.



If you want to get limited to a one vendor because you're forced that way and not by choice of your own preference, then you're also a part of a problem. This nonsense will only get fixed if people are outraged over it. People made one hell of an outrage over a freaking SHORTCUT AMD dropped on desktop with one driver, but now that they broken entire range of games for a certain API, everyone's like "oh well, whatevers lol". NO. Because when NVIDIA will have an absolute monopoly, they'll have even more shit software than they already have because they already have partial monopoly. It's why they don't even bother improving their NV CP, it's the sole reason why it looks like something dragged into this year from 2005. Trust me, you don't want that no matter how big of a NVIDIA fanboy you are.

Besides, if AMD said, "Ok, we won't be dedicating any performance improvements to DX9 API from now on" I'd say OK, fair enough. Games run fast anyway since cards have so much more raw performance it doesn't even matter anymore. But if games refuse to start entirely, that's a HUGE issue that NEEDS to be resolved.


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## R-T-B (Jan 1, 2018)

GenericAMDFan said:


> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
> 
> Please bookmark this link so next time you won't make this crucial mistake of ignoring the argument and attacking the character instead, I know I know it's always easier to attack people instead of arguments.
> 
> Fact is that AMD is being sloppy here there is no excuse for this and it very well warrants the switch to Nvidia.



The fact that a guy named GenericAmdFan just said this is frankly, disturbing. As it should be to AMD fans.  This simply cannot be defended...  or so I'd hoped.  But TPU has a way of proving me wrong, it seems... very sad.



RejZoR said:


> If you want to get limited to a one vendor because you're forced that way and not by choice of your own preference, then you're also a part of a problem. This nonsense will only get fixed if people are outraged over it. People made one hell of an outrage over a freaking SHORTCUT AMD dropped on desktop with one driver, but now that they broken entire range of games for a certain API, everyone's like "oh well, whatevers lol". NO. Because when NVIDIA will have an absolute monopoly, they'll have even more shit software than they already have because they already have partial monopoly. It's why they don't even bother improving their NV CP, it's the sole reason why it looks like something dragged into this year from 2005. Trust me, you don't want that no matter how big of a NVIDIA fanboy you are.
> 
> Besides, if AMD said, "Ok, we won't be dedicating any performance improvements to DX9 API from now on" I'd say OK, fair enough. Games run fast anyway since cards have so much more raw performance it doesn't even matter anymore. But if games refuse to start entirely, that's a HUGE issue that NEEDS to be resolved.



RejZor, today, the world needs that whining people often complain about. Let her rip.


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## notb (Jan 1, 2018)

ShurikN said:


> When I read the title I thought it was 50% of DX9 titles. Turns out it's 5 games. Install older drivers when you want to play those titles and case closed.


This news is not about how many games don't work. It's mostly about how AMD responded. "It's old, we don't care."
So today it's maybe 5 games. In a year it could be dozens. What then?


dicktracy said:


> AMD is a CPU-first company. It's no doubt that their Radeon department is severely starved in resource..


So they should just sell the graphic part - something they shouldn't have bought in the first place. They're the second largest dedicated GPU manufacturer. It's a big and important role. It should be given to someone who cares.


Romulus2K4 said:


> There is a large amount of retarded AMD fanboys out there who are coming to AMD's defense with excuses like "This is 2018, move along, quit crying" etc. which I believe is pathetic. This doesn't help consumers of AMD products, what this does is force them to switch over to the green side, and never look back again.


I think the funnier part is how AMD fans used to say that red cards age much better and so on. It's often the first argument that appears in discussions.


> Take Vega Frontier Edition, for instance. A card, that was specifically aimed at "Graphical Computing" is now being touted as the "Blockchain Pioneer" in a matter of months. Steve over at GamersNexus can tell you more about that, or Linus.


This I didn't know. https://pro.radeon.com/en/product/radeon-vega-frontier-edition/
I'm still laughing! 
Literally, they've put mining before productivity and gaming. At least it's finally official...
"High Efficiency Performance for *Coin Mining*, Content Creation and Gaming"

BTW: it's not "developing blockchain solutions", but "coin mining". That's "pioneering" in the AMD's alternative reality.


iO said:


> Oh no, AMD doesnt want to fix again what the game developers screwed up more than a decade ago...


People make mistakes all the time. But lifetime of games is longer than of GPUs. Some game studios might not exist anymore. Games are not being patched for years. Yes, it's AMD's role to make it work.

It's very similar to what we've seen when Ryzen launched. AMD fans yelling that it's software developers fault that it's not utilizing 16 threads. 


Romulus2K4 said:


> To be honest, this could just be the AMD rep misunderstanding/misinterpreting the situation. It has happened before.


So AMD should add a $0.1 "premium" to each card and employ better reps. Such things don't happen as often in the Blue and Green camps. Or other large companies, for that matter.

In a properly organized corporation any information that goes outside is carefully analyzed. I work in finance and every message prepared for media or financial supervisor is read by at least 2-3 people beside the author - usually including a board member.

Also, don't underestimate how important these kind of messages are - especially in case of a publicly traded company.


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## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

notb said:


> It's very similar to what we've seen when Ryzen launched. AMD fans yelling that it's software developers fault that it's not utilizing 16 threads.
> 
> So AMD should add a $0.1 "premium" to each card and employ better reps. Such things don't happen as often in the Blue and Green camps. Or other large companies, for that matter.
> 
> ...



Eh, no. The GTX 970 is a good example of nvidia making a similar mistake.

If you talk about the blue team.. that one is just pure evil. From fabricating benchmarks to strong arming, they have done it all. In recent times, Intel told people not to overclock their 7700K SKUs, blocked overclocking locked Skylake SKUs on Z170 motherboards through ME updates, and Skylake is essentially Kabylake meaning you're being locked out from overclocking locked Kabylake SKUs too. The whole 8th Generation Coffee Lake requiring Z370 motherboards turned out to be utter BS too, as folks have managed to run 6th and 7th gen CPUs on Z370 as well as 8th Gen CPUs on Z170/Z270 motherboards, not perfectly of course, but Steve over at GamersNexus and an Asus rep have said that it's due to intel they can't provide backwards compatibility or otherwise, they had 8th Gen SKUs working on older motherboards. 

AMD wasn't wrong about games not being optimized for their architecture. Intel suffers the same thing in gaming too, don't believe me? Check out how the Skylake 7800X fares against the RyZen 5 1600 in gaming.

Rise Of The Tomb Raider is the perfect example of how optimizations can help a specific CPU architecture to gain performance. But there are lots of older titles out there that won't see anymore updates, and I guess AMD RyZen owners will have to deal with getting sub par performance considering what these CPUs are capable of. And there is something funky going on between nvidia cards DX12 and AMD RyZen, and do we need a reminder of the whole intel's compiler ordeal?

None of these companies are saints, and we are at times left to choose between the lesser evil.

I would wait for something more official from AMD at this stage then to jump the gun because of a lousy response from one of their forum reps. If they officially declare that they won't be supporting older games, the pitchforks need to come out.


----------



## notb (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> AMD wasn't wrong about games not being optimized for their architecture. Intel suffers the same thing in gaming too, don't believe me? Check out how the Skylake 7800X fares against the RyZen 5 1600 in gaming.


You didn't get it. I know games are not optimized for 16 threads. The issue is: Intel makes low-core gaming CPUs. HEDT stuff is marketed for workstations. AMD made a 16 thread CPU and marketed it for games, when they knew it won't be utilized very well. And then they blamed game developers.


> I would wait for something more official from AMD at this stage then to jump the gun because of a lousy response from one of their forum reps. If they officially declare that they won't be supporting older games, the pitchforks need to come out.


The guy who wrote this is a support technician on their official forum (BTW: he locked the topic! :-D). Not enough? You want a press conference?


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 1, 2018)

notb said:


> This news is not about how many games don't work. It's mostly about how AMD responded. "It's old, we don't care."
> So today it's maybe 5 games. In a year it could be dozens. What then?
> 
> So they should just sell the graphic part - something they shouldn't have bought in the first place. They're the second largest dedicated GPU manufacturer. It's a big and important role. It should be given to someone who cares.
> ...


Starting to look like a true hater notb ,are you ever on the positive about something or on topic.

AMD need to make their consumer driver more like their Founders edition driver, thats all, then drivers can easily be loaded to accommodate older tech and cleaner more futuristic APIs.

I don't think a computer in 2040 needs to run pong or digger in legacy with my retro gamer pads drivers still working.

You all chat like you didn't see the 32bit generations occour ,shit stops working with evolving tech thats life.

I saw win 3.1-now though, and lost much software and hardware along the way to ,what the hell why doesn't this workitus ,as i call it.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> The fact that a guy named GenericAmdFan just said this is frankly, disturbing. As it should be to AMD fans.  This simply cannot be defended...  or so I'd hoped.  But TPU has a way of proving me wrong, it seems... very sad




Yeah we have a few of those members lacking proper emotional control for anything AMD related. They are beyond fans i would say, they treat AMD like a cult.


----------



## qubit (Jan 1, 2018)

AMD are taking the piss. If these old games worked fine in the previous release, then just how hard can it be to fix these problems? They just don't care by the looks of it and who are they to tell their customers not to play old games?! Some of them one can still buy, so they're hardly abandoned games. Is it any wonder I stick to NVIDIA when I see garbage like this?


----------



## RejZoR (Jan 1, 2018)

qubit said:


> AMD are taking the piss. If these old games worked fine in the previous release, then just how hard can it be to fix these problems? They just don't care by the looks of it and who are they to tell their customers not to play old games?! Some of them one can still buy, so they're hardly abandoned games. Is it any wonder I stick to NVIDIA when I see garbage like this?



When Midtown Madness 1 universally stopped working on GeForce cards and same for MechWarrior 3 on AMD I was disappointed, but it's just one game. When you declare that majority of games from most widely used API will stop working entirely, you stop and start questioning their mental health.


----------



## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> The driver might impact how it performs but, just because it's in a modified Fury driver for pre-release and both cards use HBM (remember, Vega has HBM2 not HBM1,) doesn't mean Fury has the hardware to handle it. HBM likely has very little to do with it and probably boils down more to the memory controller effectively handling where and how video data gets stored based on a driver setting. Also my mistake, it was added in GCN 1.4, not 1.3 but, that is beside the point. There are likely hardware limitations that prevent applying this to older GPUs. It's like asking why GCN 1.1 cards don't support delta color compression and why the driver can't be updated to use it: because the hardware doesn't support it.



I encourage you to re-read through the AMD rep's response, please. Are you making up GCN revision numbers as you go, btw?



Aquinus said:


> VSR is a very different thing though because it was more of a matter of "how well will the GPU drive it," not a "can the GPU even do it."


I was in the right place at the right time, I saw how it happened.

"How well the GPU drive it" you say? The HD 7000 cards are fine for up to 4K on older DX9 games like Aliens Vs. Predator,  Even 5K is playable at steady 30 FPS, using GeDoSaTo. Do you honestly believe that people would want 4K VSR on older cards to play latest DX11 titles? Before Fiji came on to the scene, the R9 290/290X were AMD's go to cards for 4K. How in the hell are they not playable if you had two of them in your system and they scale in CrossFire? What's funny is, people managed to edit the registry and inject older driver .dll files that enabled them to use 4K VSR on 290X cards, which later AMD *blocked*.



Aquinus said:


> Changes to how video data gets stored tends to require hardware changes due to the latency-sensitive nature of DRAM whereas with VSR, it was more of a "how well will it perform and do we want to expose a setting if it's likely going to run like crap every time."



ROFLMAO. I believe you have no clue regarding what you're talking about. I explained the use case clearly above. nvidia had DSR out first, ranging from their GTX 400 series of cards to the current gen GTX 1080 Ti, and they didn't impose any artificial limitations like this whatsoever.



Aquinus said:


> It's kind of like async compute on GCN 1.0. Sure, you can run it but, if it's not going to help and sometimes could cause performance regressions when it is used, why bother enabling it?



Async Compute on GCN 1.0 does help with performance, btw. AMD re-enabled it once the cat was out of the bag, and it gave a performance boost as was seen on older drivers prior to the point they disabled it. Probably trying to do a planned case of obsolescence, which didn't work out.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 1, 2018)

Honestly if they keep this up I will be surprised if Navi is even going to hit the shelves.

They can't get their driver model up to scratch and keep it lean and functional across several generations of APIs, but they seem intent on spreading their support even thinner across three wildly different architecture tweaks (GDDR5, HBM1/HBM2, MCM).

I honestly do hope their GPU division is going to another, stronger company yesterday. They no longer deserve credit for anything they've done the past years and going forward. Its becoming a joke and meanwhile, the market suffers. If you still support this, I cannot see what arguments you could pull in to defend it.


----------



## qubit (Jan 1, 2018)

RejZoR said:


> When Midtown Madness 1 universally stopped working on GeForce cards and same for MechWarrior 3 on AMD I was disappointed, but it's just one game. *When you declare that majority of games from most widely used API will stop working entirely, you stop and start questioning their mental health.*


+1 to that. This behaviour is consistent with their underperforming Vega cards becoming hard to find and the rumours that AMD want to get out of the gaming market.

I guess if I were them and my cards were so good at mining that sales exploded, then I might think along the same lines. It would be a folly to abandon the gaming market, though. In particular, these cards are very expensive, so making them stop working with significant amounts of games could well lead to a class action lawsuit eventually. The least they can do is to keep properly supporting their customers who have invested in them, but this is AMD. People should remember this next time they think of them as the "poor underdog".


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 1, 2018)

qubit said:


> +1 to that. This behaviour is consistent with their underperforming Vega cards becoming hard to find and the rumours that AMD want to get out of the gaming market.
> 
> I guess if I were them and my cards were so good at mining that sales exploded, then I might think along the same lines. It would be a folly to abandon the gaming market, though. In particular, these cards are very expensive, so making them stop working with significant amounts of games could well lead to a class action lawsuit eventually. The least they can do is to keep properly supporting their customers who have invested in them, but this is AMD. People should remember this next time they think of them as the "poor underdog".



Really if you look at the time ever since they acquired ATI, its been a very troublesome time, up to and including bringing AMD to the brink of collapsing. The only saving grace after all these decades of blood sweat and false powerpoint slides, has been that they kept moving units around all the time. Revenue and volume is the only concrete advantage they've gained, profits however, are simply nonexistant. To then follow that up with 'leading technologies' to me speaks volumes of how NOT to do business.

Then again, AMD's downfall has been predicted on a yearly basis since forever, who knows what they manage to twist out of RTG next year to stay in business... But honestly, I really do hope they sell it off and let a new giant take on Nvidia. Because there is no doubt in my mind that there WILL be a competitor. Look at the immense pie Nvidia has created for itself the past couple years, RTG's licensing and tech is the key to taking a piece of it.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 1, 2018)

It wouldn't even be so bad if they decided to move on and not support DX9 in general.  It could be explained.  But that isn't what happened here.

Despite there being thousands and thousands of older games running DX9, many probably even older and less well played than the few titles listed, the Rep's response was nope, those are old games, we won't support them.  So how does that jive with RTW, a 2004 game still being runnable by their hardware and drivers?  

I will chalk this up right now to the untrained in public response guy who drew the short straw to work the holiday period being the problem. "Don't worry", they probably said "it will be easy. The peasants never get worked up during the Christmas to New Year period." 

Edit: I see the crazy new forum decided mid stream to change my entire final 2/3 to bold. Lmao.

Edit2: Fixed. really weird.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jan 1, 2018)

ShurikN said:


> When I read the title I thought it was 50% of DX9 titles. Turns out it's 5 games. Install older drivers when you want to play those titles and case closed.
> Although I would hate it if I had to rollback drivers every time I wanted to play these games, and the fact that they managed to screw it somehow is inexcusable, it's also not the end of the world.




It's not really a big issue that they broke it, that happens and I guarantee no camp is testing 10 year old games with their drivers before deployment.

The inexcusable part is the response that they won't even attempt to fix the issue.  But right now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, because the response was from a tech support person, not directly from the driver team(who I assume is probably all on vacation until after new years).  So I think it'd be stupid to not have one person put a few hours into figuring out and fixing the issue.




Solaris17 said:


> nvidia has there share of incompatible games, we just cry less about it.



I can't think of any DX9 games that don't work with nVidia drivers.  I'm not saying there aren't, I just can't think of any or haven't come across any.  Yeah, games older than that, but nothing DX9.  DX9 should work with modern hardware and drivers.


----------



## GamerNerves (Jan 1, 2018)

AMD rules and FineWine is real. Let's hope for a new Command & Conquer.


----------



## MuhammedAbdo (Jan 1, 2018)

newtekie1 said:


> I can't think of any DX9 games that don't work with nVidia drivers. Yeah, games older than that, but nothing DX9. DX9 should work with modern hardware and drivers.


Not even DX8 or DX7 or DX6. I have a lot of old games and I test them regularly, on my 1080 every damn title works.

What AMD is doing is terrifying truly, I bet if people started testing DX8 or DX7 with the Adrenalin driver they'd be shocked, they are probably not funtioning as well.  That's an auomatic 2000 games "at least" not working.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 1, 2018)

notb said:


> The guy who wrote this is a support technician on their official forum (BTW: he locked the topic! :-D). Not enough? You want a press conference?



I want someone from the driver department to comment...


----------



## notb (Jan 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I want someone from the driver department to comment...


LOL what?!
Driver department is in deep back-office. They're role is not to give official statements.

Or maybe AMD went for Zen organization? Each department doing its stuff, connected to a network without a clear supervisor? That would explain A LOT!


----------



## ManofGod (Jan 1, 2018)

For those who claim they are going to run to Nvidia over 5 games, good luck with that. After all, I am sure you will have no problem finding 5 or more games that do not run right under Nvidia as well but hey, they will get right on it.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> I encourage you to re-read through the AMD rep's response, please.


I did. It was short and wasn't articulated very well. Some forum moderator isn't going to be able to speak to the problem as a driver dev would.


Romulus2K4 said:


> Are you making up GCN revision numbers as you go, btw?


Are you trying to change the topic? 


Romulus2K4 said:


> "How well the GPU drive it" you say? The HD 7000 cards are fine for up to 4K on older DX9 games like Aliens Vs. Predator, Even 5K is playable at steady 30 FPS, using GeDoSaTo. Do you honestly believe that people would want 4K VSR on older cards to play latest DX11 titles? Before Fiji came on to the scene, the R9 290/290X were AMD's go to cards for 4K. How in the hell are they not playable if you had two of them in your system and they scale in CrossFire? What's funny is, people managed to edit the registry and inject older driver .dll files that enabled them to use 4K VSR on 290X cards, which later AMD *blocked*.


None of which changes my previous statement:


Aquinus said:


> VSR is a very different thing though because it was more of a matter of "how well will the GPU drive it," not a "can the GPU even do it."





Romulus2K4 said:


> ROFLMAO. I believe you have no clue regarding what you're talking about. I explained the use case clearly above. nvidia had DSR out first, ranging from their GTX 400 series of cards to the current gen GTX 1080 Ti, and they didn't impose any artificial limitations like this whatsoever.


We're not talking about DSR here. Perhaps you forgot but, we were talking about HBCC.


Romulus2K4 said:


> Async Compute on GCN 1.0 does help with performance, btw. AMD re-enabled it once the cat was out of the bag, and it gave a performance boost as was seen on older drivers prior to the point they disabled it. Probably trying to do a planned case of obsolescence, which didn't work out.


The performance boost was very minor (when it did exist which was not all the time,) and once again, like DSR, wasn't a matter of the technology not being there but rather, not necessarily being optimal to drive it.

Perhaps you need your memory refreshed, I was talking about what you said several posts ago which has nothing to do with DSR.


Romulus2K4 said:


> If TechPowerUp wants another scoop, I can give them one right now. Some keen soul tried asking AMD to add HBCC support for the Fury/Fury X cards.


----------



## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

And I say you don't know jack regarding what you're talking about, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.  HBCC and Delta Color compression are miles apart as far as features go.

You have that distinct smell of a Fanboy, which I am very familiar with.

GCN 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4


----------



## qubit (Jan 1, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Really if you look at the time ever since they acquired ATI, its been a very troublesome time, up to and including bringing AMD to the brink of collapsing. The only saving grace after all these decades of blood sweat and false powerpoint slides, has been that they kept moving units around all the time. Revenue and volume is the only concrete advantage they've gained, profits however, are simply nonexistant. To then follow that up with 'leading technologies' to me speaks volumes of how NOT to do business.
> 
> Then again, AMD's downfall has been predicted on a yearly basis since forever, who knows what they manage to twist out of RTG next year to stay in business... But honestly, I really do hope they sell it off and let a new giant take on Nvidia. Because there is no doubt in my mind that there WILL be a competitor. Look at the immense pie Nvidia has created for itself the past couple years, RTG's licensing and tech is the key to taking a piece of it.


Indeed, I remember ATI always played second fiddle to NVIDIA, other than around the 2003 era with the 9700/9800 cards. How AMD buying them out didn't improve the situation with their much improved resources I don't know.

Agreed about a competitor. If AMD throw their toys out of the pram and ragequit this market, then there will be a vacuum there, which is guaranteed to be filled. It wouldn't surprise me if Intel buys AMD's graphics business and becomes that competitor. They're already integrating AMD GPUs into their upcoming CPUs, which lends credibility to this possibility.

With nonexistent competition like this, no wonder NVIDIA has the gall to release the TITAN V at a ridiculous $3000. I dread to think how much the GTX version will cost. Those days of improved tech at every decreasing prices are gone.

@rtwjunkie It could well be a customer service droid issue and hope it is, but I suspect that it goes deeper than that. We just have to wait and see. 

@newtekie1 All my DX9 games work properly too.



MuhammedAbdo said:


> Not even DX8 or DX7 or DX6. I have a lot of old games and I test them regularly, on my 1080 every damn title works.
> 
> What AMD is doing is terrifying truly, I bet if people started testing DX8 or DX7 with the Adrenalin driver they'd be shocked, they are probably not funtioning as well.  That's an auomatic 2000 games "at least" not working.


What OS are you running those old games on. I know that W10 doesn't run anything below DX9 properly, so is it W7 perhaps?
It would be interesting to see how broken those older games are. I suspect that since W10 no longer properly supports DX8 and older, that those games are being slowly abandoned as W10 increases its market share over those older operating systems that do support it. And that's a real shame. I got lucky with the DX8 Unreal Tournament 2004, since it can be switched to OpenGL in the .ini file, but that's dodging a bullet, not solving the problem.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 1, 2018)

notb said:


> LOL what?!
> Driver department is in deep back-office. They're role is not to give official statements.
> 
> Or maybe AMD went for Zen organization? Each department doing its stuff, connected to a network without a clear supervisor? That would explain A LOT!



They've issued statements before. Fact is, none of them check in on the holidays.



ManofGod said:


> For those who claim they are going to run to Nvidia over 5 games, good luck with that. After all, I am sure you will have no problem finding 5 or more games that do not run right under Nvidia as well but hey, they will get right on it.



If it's a DX9 API issue, its going to be a helluva lot more than just these reported AAA titles...

And as I have said, I CAN'T name one game, so much for 5...



qubit said:


> What OS are you running those old games on. I know that W10 doesn't run anything below DX9 properly, so is it W7 perhaps?



Wut? I run a number of DX8 games (SH3, Jedi Knight/Academy ) and even a DX5 game (SW: Rebellion) no problem.


----------



## ManofGod (Jan 1, 2018)

qubit said:


> Indeed, I remember ATI always played second fiddle to NVIDIA, other than around the 2003 era with the 9700/9800 cards. How AMD buying them out didn't improve the situation with their much improved resources I don't know.
> 
> Agreed about a competitor. If AMD throw their toys out of the pram and ragequit this market, then there will be a vacuum there, which is guaranteed to be filled. It wouldn't surprise me if Intel buys AMD's graphics business and becomes that competitor. They're already integrating AMD GPUs into their upcoming CPUs, which lends credibility to this possibility.
> 
> ...



I just played UT2004 without issues, other than it does not support 4k out of the box. Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit FCU.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> And I say you don't know jack regarding what you're talking about, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.  HBCC and Delta Color compression are miles apart as far as features go.


They both necessitate changes to the GPU and memory controller to be implemented whereas DSR doesn't, that's my point. 


Romulus2K4 said:


> You have that distinct smell of a Fanboy, which I am very familiar with.


Perhaps I can guide you to the forum guidelines.
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/forum-guidelines.197329/


W1zzard said:


> _Behavior that is inappropriate/should be reported_
> 
> Insulting other forum members (calling someone makes you look stupid anyways)


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

you know if 3/4 of your game libary is DX9
then you probably don't need a RX580 ...
or anything better then a i3 and a few generation old 2gb card
christ people most of the D3D9 code path is from 2003 get over it nobody cried when nvidia killed OGL 1.5 support a few months ago and thats a newer api 

and @Romulus2K4
shadup god everytime you post I want to cut my self


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

Wow.. Fanboy's are out in force on this one. Just Wow. It shouldn't be surprising at all, but yet this kind of fanboyism never ceases to amaze.

AMD should at least look at this problem as A LOT of great games run on DX9. The solution might very well be simple. However, DX9 is a retired API. Devoting resources to it is not and should not be a priority for them anymore than it would be for NVidia.

Folks, the solution is simple. Built an inexpensive retro gaming rig and install the mainstream OS of the time. Most systems built in 2012 have support for WinXP, which is a great OS for the games affected and anything else DX9.

Alternatively, you could dual boot on the same system with either a second partition or a second SSD/HDD and use the older drivers without the bug.


----------



## Kursah (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> And I say you don't know jack regarding what you're talking about, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.  HBCC and Delta Color compression are miles apart as far as features go.
> 
> You have that distinct smell of a Fanboy, which I am very familiar with.
> 
> GCN 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4



I'd suggest you review the forum guidelines before continuing any form of communication on this forum, you're do. How you've been posting is unacceptable and is against said guidelines. Failing to follow them will result in earning infractions. Your call how this proceeds and this is your "free" warning.

This also goes for anyone else that wants to add any level of inappropriateness or toxicity to their posts. We'd appreciate you not doing so in the first place.

Thanks!


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

this WHOLE thing is microsofts fault the only reason DX9 hasn't been dead and gone for 10 years is windows xp and the idiots that keep supporting it
it needs to die every legacy api every legacy driver every single line of code needs to go

it is a performance and security disaster ANYTHING affiliated with the era should be burned and buried


----------



## Romulus2K4 (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> They both necessitate changes to the GPU and memory controller to be implemented whereas DSR doesn't, that's my point.



What?




Aquinus said:


> Perhaps I can guide you to the forum guidelines.
> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/forum-guidelines.197329/



If you feel my posts are inappropriate, go ahead and report me to the admins, please. I encourage you to do so. I don't mind infractions or bans for saying things like they are.




OneMoar said:


> and @Romulus2K4
> shadup god everytime you post I want to cut my self



You'd probably be doing the world a favor.



Kursah said:


> I'd suggest you review the forum guidelines before continuing any form of communication on this forum, you're do. How you've been posting is unacceptable and is against said guidelines. Failing to follow them will result in earning infractions. Your call how this proceeds and this is your "free" warning.
> 
> This also goes for anyone else that wants to add any level of inappropriateness or toxicity to their posts. We'd appreciate you not doing so in the first place.
> 
> Thanks!



I tell you what, you can deactivate this account of mine right now, I wouldn't mind at all. While you're at it, remove all my posts too. Peace. TPU is a stupid forum anyways, full of retarded fanboys. I found that out years ago when I first joined here to discuss AMD drivers having a high CPU overhead, and I was told that AMD's drivers don't need any improvements regarding draw calls, and I am stupid for thinking such an issue exists.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wow.. Fanboy's are out in force on this one. Just Wow. It shouldn't be surprising at all, but yet this kind of fanboyism never ceases to amaze.


I want to make it very clear that I'm not condoning AMD breaking compatibility with DX9 and they should fix it. What I am saying is that not everything is a driver problem.

Quit it with the name calling before a mod decides you need a vacation.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



how you believe it to be, and how it accually is are two entirely different things

Your Opinion is just that Yours and yours alone. just because you think you are right and just does not make you so

*unless you are me


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> I tell you what, you can deactivate this account of mine right now, I wouldn't mind at all.


@Kursah, I think that's a challenge.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> I want to make it very clear that I'm not condoning AMD breaking compatibility with DX9 and they should fix it. What I am saying is that not everything is a driver problem.
> 
> Quit it with the name calling before a mod decides you need a vacation.



game developers where told that DX9 was depreciated 12 years ago they choose not to act well now there games don't work anymore so sad too bad


----------



## MuhammedAbdo (Jan 1, 2018)

qubit said:


> What OS are you running those old games on. I know that W10 doesn't run anything below DX9 properly, so is it W7 perhaps?


No Win 10 64bit, just yesterday I ran Max Payne 1, Tribes: Vengeance, Road Rage, Red Alert 2, Hitman 1, they all ran without a hitch.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> game developers where told that DX9 was depreciated 12 years ago they choose not to act well now there games don't work anymore so sad too bad


It's more than likely that part of another DX API was using some of the same code that DX9 was and a change to that shared code caused something to break in DX9. Ideally, this should have been caught in testing and there is absolutely no reason why older APIs should break if they're not explicitly being deprecated. This is a problem that can be avoided and I suspect that AMD will pull the changes apart so DX9 has the older code while all the other DX revisions have the newer code because, if it's shared code with DX9, there is a good bet that it touches everything going forward as well (with the exception of possibly DX12 but, you never know.)


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> It's more than likely that part of another DX API was using some of the same code that DX9 was and a change to that shared code caused something to break in DX9. Ideally, this should have been caught in testing and there is absolutely no reason why older APIs should break if they're not explicitly being deprecated. This is a problem that can be avoided and I suspect that AMD will pull the changes apart so DX9 has the older code while all the other DX revisions have the newer code because, if it's shared code with DX9, there is a good bet that it touches everything going forward as well (with the exception of possibly DX12.)



I am sure it came up and I am sure they said fawk it 

that leads to spaghetti code and thats what AMD is trying to fix years of spaghetti code 

they might back pedal if enough people complain but it would hardly be worth the effort its 2018 if you want to play older DX9 games get a older computer


----------



## Kursah (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> @Kursah, I think that's a challenge.



Unfortunately it appears that way.

Challenge accepted. 

As for the rest of you here, if I see anymore name calling, labeling, toxic BS, expect to earn infractions and bans. Play nice, follow our rules or STFU and move on.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> I want to make it very clear that I'm not condoning AMD breaking compatibility with DX9 and they should fix it. What I am saying is that not everything is a driver problem.
> 
> Quit it with the name calling before a mod decides you need a vacation.


Thanks for the advice, but I don't think my comment is what Kursah was referring to.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> I am sure it came up and I am sure they said fawk it
> 
> that leads to spaghetti code and thats what AMD is trying to fix years of spaghetti code
> 
> they might back pedal if enough people complain but it would hardly be worth the effort its 2018 if you want to play older DX9 games get a older computer


It's probably because they tried to treat DX like OGL where newer versions only added features, they didn't change existing ones. DX on the otherhand just screws with everything every time there is a major release which is the equivalent of going from OGL to Vulkan every time, which is crap.


lexluthermiester said:


> Thanks for the advice, but I don't think my comment is what Kursah was referring to.


No but, directing it a one person or many people probably doesn't make a difference. Name calling is name calling. There is no need to make this personal.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

porting from DX9 to 11 isn't _THAT _much work if you just stick to code path compatibility and don't bother with the extra functionality

I think AMD is just going though and ripping out any code that hasn't been touched in a few years 
which given the history of their drivers isn't a terrible idea  
API's sometimes die like this OGL 1.5,Glide,openal it happens time stops for no coder


----------



## Kursah (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Thanks for the advice, but I don't think my comment is what Kursah was referring to.



I was warning everyone here, while warning the most toxic individual in the thread. 

No need for the Fanboy/Fanboi talk here either, IMHO it detracts from an actual conversation and debate by adding in name calling and labelling. Both against the rules here and I will ask you and others nor to proceed with.

Alright, enough of all that. Let's keep this thread on track, play nice and enjoy!


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> porting from DX9 to 11 isn't _THAT _much work if you just stick to code path compatibility and don't bother with the extra functionality


That's the game dev side but, think about the driver. The API looks and feels very similar so you would think, those things do the same thing under the hood but that isn't necessarily the case. Driver dev is a very different world than dev'ing against that driver.


OneMoar said:


> API's sometimes die like this OGL 1.5


Remember, OpenGL *adds features with every version* it doesn't replace them. OGL 1.5 only included 3 features so, if you don't use them, it doesn't matter. DX doesn't work that way.

Example: Every most OpenGL application uses OpenGL 1.0 because that's how you draw.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> There is no need to make this personal.





Kursah said:


> I was warning everyone here, while warning the most toxic individual in the thread.  No need for the Fanboy/Fanboi talk here either, IMHO it detracts from an actual conversation and debate by adding in name calling and labelling. Both against the rules here and I will ask you and others nor to proceed with. Alright, enough of all that. Let's keep this thread on track, play nice and enjoy!


Fair enough.

Thing is, we can all see that a lot of blame is being levied at AMD or NVidia and even MS. The thing is, blaming and complaining about the DX9 API now is like crying over spilled milk. Things are the way they are, complaining about them post-hence serves no purpose. What the focus needs to be is finding a solution. I've offered two that will work. But there's got to be more.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> That's the game dev side but, think about the driver. The API looks and feels very similar so you would think, those things do the same thing under the hood but that isn't necessarily the case. Driver dev is a very different world than dev'ing against that driver.
> 
> Remember, OpenGL *adds features with every version* it doesn't replace them. OGL 1.5 only included 3 features so, if you don't use them, it doesn't matter. DX doesn't work that way.
> 
> Example: Every most OpenGL application uses OpenGL 1.0 because that's how you draw.



except the differences in DX9 and 11+ shading and threading models are different enough where needing to support both incurs a penalty because so many functions are shared but handled differently
supporting both code paths is a nightmare


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Things is, we can all see that a lot of blame is being levied at AMD or NVidia and even MS. The thing is, blaming and complaining about the DX9 API now is like crying over spilled milk. Things are the way they are, complaining about them post-hence serves no purpose. What the focus needs to be is finding a solution. I've offered two that will work. But there's got to be more.


Microsoft's archaic and monolithic approach to graphics APIs over the decades has contributed to this problem. OpenGL has grown far more gracefully than DX has because DX doesn't grow, DX gets replaced. It's hard to manage change, which is why strictly adding features and not changing them yields stability and scalability. Rewriting APIs takes a ton of time for everyone involved and it's a terrible way to develop software.


OneMoar said:


> except the differences in DX9 and 11+ shading and threading models are different enough where needing to support both incurs a penalty because so many functions are shared but handled differently
> supporting both code paths is a nightmare


You can thank Microsoft for that nightmare, not the driver dev shops that have to implement them.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Microsoft's archaic and monolithic approach to graphics APIs over the decades has contributed to this problem. OpenGL has grown far more gracefully than DX has because DX doesn't grow, DX gets replaced. It's hard to manage change, which is why strictly adding features and not changing them yields stability and scalability. Rewriting APIs takes a ton of time for everyone involved and it's a terrible way to develop software.
> 
> You can thank Microsoft for that nightmare, not the driver dev shops that have to implement them.





OneMoar said:


> this WHOLE thing is microsofts fault the only reason DX9 hasn't been dead and gone for 10 years is windows xp and the idiots that keep supporting it
> it needs to die every legacy api every legacy driver every single line of code needs to go
> 
> it is a performance and security disaster ANYTHING affiliated with the era should be burned and buried


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Microsoft's archaic and monolithic approach to graphics APIs over the decades has contributed to this problem. OpenGL has grown far more gracefully than DX has because DX doesn't grow, DX gets replaced. It's hard to manage change, which is why strictly adding features and not changing them yields stability and scalability. Rewriting APIs takes a ton of time for everyone involved and it's a terrible way to develop software.


True or not, it still amounts to crying over spilled milk. Instead, finding solutions to the current problem is more constructive and productive.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> True or not, it still amounts to crying over spilled milk. Instead, finding solutions to the current problem is more constructive and productive.


but there is no problem
No your 10 year old games not working is Not a problem its time, time moves on


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> but there is no problem
> No your 10 year old games not working is Not a problem its time, time moves on


It's a problem for those people who have current gen Radeon GPU's and still love & play those games. I still have and play many of the games affected. So I can empathize with those having difficulties.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's a problem for those people who have current gen Radeon GPU's and still love & play those games.


buy a older gpu


----------



## cdawall (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wow.. Fanboy's are out in force on this one. Just Wow. It shouldn't be surprising at all, but yet this kind of fanboyism never ceases to amaze.
> 
> AMD should at least look at this problem as A LOT of great games run on DX9. The solution might very well be simple. However, DX9 is a retired API. Devoting resources to it is not and should not be a priority for them anymore than it would be for NVidia.
> 
> ...



Or simply buy an nvidia card that not only performs better, but still supports the games.


----------



## MuhammedAbdo (Jan 1, 2018)

LOL the miles AMD fanatics go through to justify this dick move is simply mind blowing! Really if AMD went tomorrow or next year or whatever and announced they are dropping DX10 and DX11 games as well they wouldn't even flinch.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> buy a older gpu


But the problem isn't the GPU, it's the current release of drivers. The Radeon GPU's themselves are fine.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> But the problem isn't the GPU, it's the current release of drivers. The Radeon GPU's themselves are fine.


In there lies the problem. AMD has some great hardware which is why we see constant performance improvements over time but, on the other hand it makes AMD's driver devs look incompetent. nVidia doesn't have that problem and they arguably get more done with less hardware for this very reason. Drivers aren't AMD's strong suit by any means. AMD going the "mostly open source" route with AMDGPU is a great example of this because they know the community is going to solve problems better than they can but, there are just certain things they don't want to give up the code for but, that's okay because even those things have open source implementations (for things like Vulkan which AMD recent open sourced and OGL 4.5 support,) that arguably are closer to being better implementations.

tl;dr: Hardware is only as good as the drivers.


----------



## sprsk (Jan 1, 2018)

Also in War of Warships , Black Screen suddenly inside game. 
Even with Alt+tab, it's impossible most of the times to fix it. Hard reset, needed, most of the times.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> In there lies the problem. AMD has some great hardware which is why we see constant performance improvements over time but, on the other hand it makes AMD's driver devs look incompetent. nVidia doesn't have that problem and they arguably get more done with less hardware for this very reason. Drivers aren't AMD's strong suit by any means. AMD going the "mostly open source" route with AMDGPU is a great example of this because they know the community is going to solve problems better than they can but, there are just certain things they don't want to give up the code for but, that's okay because even those things have open source implementations (for things like Vulkan which AMD recent open sourced and OGL 4.5 support,) that arguably are closer to being better implementations.
> 
> tl;dr: Hardware is only as good as the drivers.


Good points. There in we find a clue to the solution, this is apparently a recent development resulting from driver updates, so the solution must be an easy to find and possibly easy to fix problem. As this problem is absent from other tested DX9 games, it may also be possible to release patches directly for affected games.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Good points. There in we find a clue to the solution, this is apparently a recent development resulting from driver updates, so the solution must be an easy to find and possibly easy to fix problem. As this problem is absent from other tested DX9 games, it may also be possible to release patches directly for affected games.


It's probably a certain feature being used or something being assumed to occur in DX9 where it doesn't in other APIs. With enough stack traces from different games, they'll probably identify what is causing it rather quickly. I suspect that they'll hotfix this (as in, release a fix before the next release. That's what I would do if my code had a problem like this.)


----------



## HisDivineOrder (Jan 1, 2018)

AMD:  "I don't believe it..."
nVidia:  "...that is why you fail."


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> It's probably a certain feature being used or something being assumed to occur in DX9 where it doesn't in other APIs. With enough stack traces from different games, they'll probably identify what is causing it rather quickly. I suspect that they'll hotfix this (as in, release a fix before the next release. That's what I would do if my code had a problem like this.)


AMD releases drivers swiftly enough that they will likely fix it in the next scheduled release, if they fix it.


HisDivineOrder said:


> AMD:  "I don't believe it..."
> nVidia:  "...that is why you fail."


Funny.. But really?


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

So according to @OneMoar , AMD fu*cked up their driver, as result I as a consumer should buy another GPU to play games I like?  Pretty solid logic.

Mental gymnastics surely is a thing now days.


----------



## Prince Valiant (Jan 1, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've yet to encounter one I could blame on the GPU driver with the exception of some gamebryo games that honestly, were coded horribly from day 1 and there are workarounds available.


Drivers are always going to broken somewhere on both sides. What I don't understand is why AMD felt like announcing that they're going to continue doing what they and Nvidia already do.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> this WHOLE thing is microsofts fault the only reason DX9 hasn't been dead and gone for 10 years is windows xp and the idiots that keep supporting it
> it needs to die every legacy api every legacy driver every single line of code needs to go
> 
> it is a performance and security disaster ANYTHING affiliated with the era should be burned and buried


DX9 going away is not an answer. There are still games being made in DX9 and a stable of probably at least a thousand still popular DX9 games.  It works just fine in W10.  

As for XP code needing to go, yeah, I agree completely.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You were told, by one of the many random people who visit this forum like you and myself 

Forum, and discussion, and threads are there to actually find new information, not convince the world of your truths, even though that is a nice side effect that COULD occur from time to time (given that you're actually right about things and are good at providing evidence to support it).

Its funny because the AMD drivers cpu overhead issue is widely acknowledged, you won't hear or see me deny any of it. And also, how does 'denying that' mix with a supposed 'pro Nvidia' or 'fanboy' stance in this topic? They are perfect opposites...

As you can see, logic wins the day. You'll see yourself out, I trust, or come to terms with this community. Door's open. Taking each other seriously is a two way street y'know


----------



## lilunxm12 (Jan 1, 2018)

Are these issues tied to DX9?
If not, the title may be misleading as it feels like AMD is giving up DX9 support.


----------



## altermere (Jan 1, 2018)

RejZoR said:


> Only game I'm aware of being incompatible with NVIDIA is Midtown Madness 1. That game started having problems the moment GeForce cards were released, something to do with rendering method (gets flying and flickering polygons all over the screen). It's possible it got fixed since so much time has passed, GPU's changed and there have been a lot of drivers in between. It's possible it fixed itself on its own. Gotta try it one day, but I know it didn't work from day I got GeForce 2...


Oh, that's my favorite game. It's strange for me to hear about this issue because I've played it on Riva TNT2 in 2002, Ti 4200 in 2003 and a 540M in 2011, it always ran fine, and so did Midtown Madness 2 which has the same engine.

AMD just needs to fire entire RTG PR/marketing/pricing/whatever team, throughout 2017 they delivered nothing but fiasco after a fiasco: first Vega misinformation and pricing shenanigans, then RX 560 core nerfing and now this. I'm feeling they don't take PC gaming market seriously anymore, banking on miners instead, just take look at this, now they're branding FE as "Vega Frontier Edition for Blockchain Pioneers" while reference RX Vega along with the AIO version (which is superior to any hybrid cooler on the market) have been quietly discontinued.
https://pro.radeon.com/en/product/radeon-vega-frontier-edition/
https://wccftech.com/amd-stops-shipping-reference-rx-vega-favor-custom-cards/


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> There are still games being made in DX9


Hence why an entire code base needs to be maintained. A testament to bad decisions made upon bad decisions. This is the kind of bed you have sleep in when you by a mattress from Microsoft.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

the only way to get rid of the cancer that is DX9 is to cut it out and irradiate the area

if that means a dozen or so crappy games written by people too stupid to use a modern API die

so be it nothing of value was lost

the solution is assuredly not to continue supporting a fundamentally broken and inferior api because, of a few abandoned games and devs that should know better that will just lead right back to this situation down the road

dust off a 750ti or 7870 and get over it or copy the dx dll files needed,pension the game studio to fix there shit or buckle down and write a d3d9 to 11 wrapper

I am sorry it can't stay 2008 forever progress sometimes sucks
edit: dlls are here https://mega.nz/#F!8tlAhDyQ!2AkAQukJKAYuIWEzDTGtFA!IslFkTSL
peace=out


----------



## Fluffmeister (Jan 1, 2018)

I'm beginning to see why companies prefer using GeForce cards in their data centers.

Seriously though, entertaining thread. 10 out of 10.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

Fluffmeister said:


> I'm beginning to see why companies prefer using GeForce cards in their data centers.
> 
> Seriously though, entertaining thread. 10 out of 10.




Not just industry, academia as well.  No sane researcher in public or private biology/medical research would bother with AMD's offering.  I was stupid enough to try to get some genome assembler working on AMD's OpenCL compiler, worst 2 months of my coding experience. 0 technical support from AMD.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 1, 2018)

Mining is going that route as well. Nvidia cards are so much user friendly.


----------



## arbiter (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> this WHOLE thing is microsofts fault the only reason DX9 hasn't been dead and gone for 10 years is windows xp and the idiots that keep supporting it
> it needs to die every legacy api every legacy driver every single line of code needs to go
> 
> it is a performance and security disaster ANYTHING affiliated with the era should be burned and buried





OneMoar said:


> game developers where told that DX9 was depreciated 12 years ago they choose not to act well now there games don't work anymore so sad too bad


Dx9 is far from dead, Take a look at Steam game library of indie games added over last year. You will find a ton that STILL made using DX9. Even one the most popular games right now League of Legends is a DX9 game. Just cause you think its dead and gone is far from the fact ton's of people use it cause its easy to use and tons of documentation for it makes it easy for them to code games for. Lets not also forget games like DOTA and CS:GO that still use it.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

cdawall said:


> Mining is going that route as well. Nvidia cards are so much user friendly.



Huh, didn't know about that.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Jan 1, 2018)

whats hilarious is for the longest time AMD gpus actually played a LOT of games Nvidia GPUs would not that were far older. Examples being Shogun Total War the original. Until it was remastered only AMD gpus could still play that game. Its still a fun and extremely engaging RTS.  For systems running older games I usually used AMD gpus. looks like i can cross them off now lol.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

arbiter said:


> Dx9 is far from dead, Take a look at Steam game library of indie games added over last year. You will find a ton that STILL made using DX9. Even one the most popular games right now League of Legends is a DX9 game. Just cause you think its dead and gone is far from the fact ton's of people use it cause its easy to use and tons of documentation for it makes it easy for them to code games for. Lets not also forget games like DOTA and CS:GO that still use it.


Exactly right. Software is not obsolete just because it's older. If it's useful, well understood, effective and easy to use, it's still valid and relevant. This problem is not DirectX9, or Microsoft's, fault(a rare occasion). This was a driver problem unintentionally introduced by an advancement AMD made. This has happened to NVidia and Intel after graphics drivers update in the past also.


crazyeyesreaper said:


> whats hilarious is for the longest time AMD gpus actually played a LOT of games Nvidia GPUs would not that were far older. Examples being Shogun Total War the original. Until it was remastered only AMD gpus could still play that game. Its still a fun and extremely engaging RTS.  For systems running older games I usually used AMD gpus. looks like i can cross them off now lol.


I wouldn't do that just yet. This is an issue that does not affect all games and AMD will likely get it fixed anyway.


----------



## mtcn77 (Jan 1, 2018)

I love Kane's Wrath, such a complete gaming experience. It runs on any current hardware, anyway. It always were optimisation friendly.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Exactly right. Software is not obsolete just because it's older. If it's useful, well understood, effective and easy to use, it's still valid and relevant. This problem is not DirectX9, or Microsoft's, fault(a rare occasion). This was a driver problem unintentionally introduced by an advancement AMD made. This has happened to NVidia and Intel after graphics drivers update in the past also.
> 
> I wouldn't do that just yet. This is an issue that does not affect all games and AMD will likely get it fixed anyway.





lexluthermiester said:


> Exactly right. Software is not obsolete just because it's older. If it's useful, well understood, effective and easy to use, it's still valid and relevant. This problem is not DirectX9, or Microsoft's, fault(a rare occasion). This was a driver problem unintentionally introduced by an advancement AMD made. This has happened to NVidia and Intel after graphics drivers update in the past also.
> 
> I wouldn't do that just yet. This is an issue that does not affect all games and AMD will likely get it fixed anyway.



The Witcher will likely be fixed by CD Projeckt due to their GoG platform etc. The other games tho are unlikely to see a Developer fix cause well its EA lol. Generally speaking this is expected but still disheartening.


----------



## Paganstomp (Jan 1, 2018)

_The company's full statement reads "This title is from 2007, so we are unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue, which is most likely caused by outdated API modules."_

So now it goes down the line to the developers to make new code for their old game. An example is Blizzard has a boat load of money and have been fixing their old games to run on newer hardware and drivers. Others just don't have those type of resources or gone out of business. Sucks doesn't it. But that's the way it is. It takes $$$!! Unless you like working for free...


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Jan 1, 2018)

Paganstomp said:


> _The company's full statement reads "This title is from 2007, so we are unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue, which is most likely caused by outdated API modules."_
> 
> So now it goes down the line to the developers to make new code for thier old game. An example is Blizzard has a boat load of money and have been fixing thier old games to run on newer hardware and drivers. Others just don't have those type resources or gone out of business. Sucks dosen't it. But that's the way it is. It takes $$$!! Unless you like working for free...


How much you want to a bet a pirated version running on Linux via Wine would work just fine?


----------



## ManofGod (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Microsoft's archaic and monolithic approach to graphics APIs over the decades has contributed to this problem. OpenGL has grown far more gracefully than DX has because DX doesn't grow, DX gets replaced. It's hard to manage change, which is why strictly adding features and not changing them yields stability and scalability. Rewriting APIs takes a ton of time for everyone involved and it's a terrible way to develop software.
> 
> You can thank Microsoft for that nightmare, not the driver dev shops that have to implement them.



Looks to me like Microsoft's way of doing it is working much better than OpenGL. The Direct X performance is typically better than OpenGL and more robust to boot.



cdawall said:


> Or simply buy an nvidia card that not only performs better, but still supports the games.



Until it doesn't or you have to install a different driver just to get one game to work.


----------



## Paganstomp (Jan 1, 2018)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> How much you want to a bet a pirated version running on Linux via Wine would work just fine?



Linux has issues of its own in getting games to run. Been major improvements, but still has a ways to go. { I buy my games GoG / Steam / CD-DVD or Floppy. Sometimes on cassette tape.  }


----------



## ManofGod (Jan 1, 2018)

MuhammedAbdo said:


> LOL the miles AMD fanatics go through to justify this dick move is simply mind blowing! Really if AMD went tomorrow or next year or whatever and announced they are dropping DX10 and DX11 games as well they wouldn't even flinch.



5 games is not the end of DX9 support, as much as it is spun that way. Also, I would love to see an NVidia 1080 Ti support all games 100% without issue on the latest version of Windows 10 with only the latest drivers, which as all is truly and fully aware, is not possible.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> The Witcher will likely be fixed by CD Projeckt due to their GoG platform etc. The other games tho are unlikely to see a Developer fix cause well its EA lol. Generally speaking this is expected but still disheartening.


For all of EA's faults, they are actually pretty good at patching their old game titles. Still, this fix is very likely going to reside with AMD.


----------



## oxidized (Jan 1, 2018)

I have the feeling soon AMD will stop having a GPU department, i mean they've been giving 0 fuc*s for how long now? I honestly don't think they still hope to fool somebody else, sounds like they're preparing to get rid of the RTG, and maybe create something else in the future (when they'll actually have enough money to afford a proper Graphics team and not starve it) otherwise they're just digging their own grave, i don't know, i can't think of anything else.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jan 1, 2018)

What a shitshow. Good job everyone.

Good thing the forum updated recently , otherwise I could have sworn I am on wccftech.


----------



## oxidized (Jan 1, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> What a shitshow. Good job everyone.
> 
> Good thing the forum updated recently , otherwise I could have sworn I am on wccftech.



Hey! At least you're not on OCN lmao.


----------



## OneMoar (Jan 1, 2018)

btw the DLLS are here and yo


arbiter said:


> Dx9 is far from dead, Take a look at Steam game library of indie games added over last year. You will find a ton that STILL made using DX9. Even one the most popular games right now League of Legends is a DX9 game. Just cause you think its dead and gone is far from the fact ton's of people use it cause its easy to use and tons of documentation for it makes it easy for them to code games for. Lets not also forget games like DOTA and CS:GO that still use it.



and they are doing it wrong


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 1, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Hence why an entire code base needs to be maintained. A testament to bad decisions made upon bad decisions. This is the kind of bed you have sleep in when you by a mattress from Microsoft.


I'm not sure where you fall on this, since I've seen you respond seeming for both sides.  And I will be honest, you are talking riddles with this response and have me confused.

I will say there has never been a reason why Direct X versions were tied to OS, other than a carrot used by MS to get us to buy the new  operating systems.  

There is really nothing wrong with Direct X. It runs fine in W10, and is not a security hole, otherwise it would have been blocked just like disc based games were.  It strikes me funny that OneMoar keeps acting like he is the worlds most knowing person and calls it a cancer that must be ripped out.  At least your posts contribute, even while confusing me sometimes.


----------



## Vya Domus (Jan 1, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> There is really nothing wrong with Direct X. It runs fine in W10, and is not a security hole, otherwise it would have been blocked just like disc based games were.



There is nothing wrong with it other than the fact that it relies on an antiquated code base and concepts from a time when GPUs didn't even have unified shaders. And not just that , DX and OpenGL up until recently have been fully reliant on drivers for performance and compatibility. I wouldn't go as far as to call it a cancer but MS shouldn't have let it become so widespread after so much time.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 1, 2018)

Just tested Max Payne 2. Broken as well. You can add just to the list. Now who knows what else is broken.

Does not want to roll back to 17.11.4 though. Last time I played this was on the first Relive driver release.  It played just fine last time.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 1, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> I'm not sure where you fall on this, since I've seen you respond seeming for both sides.


I think that DirectX is garbage and hard for driver devs to maintain however, I do think AMD needs to get their act together and fix it. This was simply sloppy QA but, this shouldn't be a surprise with something as monolithic as DirectX when people want driver bug turnarounds to be quick. You don't see this kind of crap typically happening with OpenGL implementations, even with bleeding edge code.


----------



## evernessince (Jan 1, 2018)

Romulus2K4 said:


> The HD 7000 series and the R 200/300 series of cards did see a lot of improvement in performance as the drivers for them matured, allowing them to outperform their original nvidia counterparts substantially in some of the more recent games, till Polaris and VEGA cards became a priority.
> 
> You will not see reviewers benching cards like the GTX 770, GTX 780 or the GTX 780 Ti in their benchmark suite, but you'll see a couple of R9 200 cards. The AMD cards from the HD 7000/R 200/R 300 did age better. But the same can't be said for the Fury lineup. So I wouldn't pass off FineWine as simply a myth. I myself had a GTX 770 and a HD 7950 side by side and I saw how things unfolded.
> 
> ...



The Fury X wasn't planned obsolescence, it was just a turd of a card just the same as Vega is.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 1, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> and they are doing it wrong


That's your opinion, not shared by everyone, including devs still making damn good games.


evernessince said:


> The Fury X wasn't planned obsolescence, it was just a turd of a card just the same as Vega is.


Also an opinion not shared by everyone.

I'm sensing a trend here..


----------



## Jism (Jan 1, 2018)

oxidized said:


> I have the feeling soon AMD will stop having a GPU department, i mean they've been giving 0 fuc*s for how long now? I honestly don't think they still hope to fool somebody else, sounds like they're preparing to get rid of the RTG, and maybe create something else in the future (when they'll actually have enough money to afford a proper Graphics team and not starve it) otherwise they're just digging their own grave, i don't know, i can't think of anything else.



Bullshit.

AMD is not forced to update their latest *new* drivers for games dating back from 2007 or even older. I mean, you could still install a previous driver and hapilly play the game. The adrenaline update is for latest games, cards and all. AMD is right. Why 'waste' valuable engineering resources into drivers for older games? It's just 5.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Jan 1, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's your opinion, not shared by everyone, including devs still making damn good games.



But AMD aren't doing it right either. AMD could use all the good PR they can get, and this throws up an obstacle that could be a potential deal killer for someone looking to buy a graphics card that also plays old/older games. This will push some people towards Nvidia rather then stick with AMD.

They are alienating themselves from the part of the community that does play these games.


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 2, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> This will push some people towards Nvidia rather then stick with AMD.


I like the driver model in Linux which is a big plus for me but, really having no good upgrade path while sticking with AMD is what's bothering me. A 580 is a side-grade or a very minor upgrade at best from the 390 and Vega cards are nowhere to be found. If AMD wants me to buy another card, they need to make a Vega 56 using regular VRAM. HBM isn't worth all of these shenanigans.

As for the drivers (maintained by AMD,) I don't expect it to get any better. It hasn't for a long time.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 2, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's your opinion, not shared by everyone, including devs still making damn good games.
> 
> Also an opinion not shared by everyone.
> 
> I'm sensing a trend here..



This.

Others can say how invalid opinions are all they want, and how this is a storm in a teacup and all, but people have a right to be mad about what they want to be mad about.   Simple as that.

I'm mad because my old games don't work, and that eliminates AMD as a purchasing choice for me.  I'm afraid it really is that simple.



Prince Valiant said:


> Drivers are always going to broken somewhere on both sides. What I don't understand is why AMD felt like announcing that they're going to continue doing what they and Nvidia already do.



NVIDIAs drivers tend to be broken more in modern titles... lol


----------



## Th3pwn3r (Jan 2, 2018)

Jism said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> AMD is not forced to update their latest *new* drivers for games dating back from 2007 or even older. I mean, you could still install a previous driver and hapilly play the game. The adrenaline update is for latest games, cards and all. AMD is right. Why 'waste' valuable engineering resources into drivers for older games? It's just 5.



There was nothing bullshit about his post. And sure, they're not forced to update anything, it's always a good thing to do. When you buy a product you expect it to work right and get some support, at least in our world of hardware. In my opinion it doesn't matter how many games are bugged and no longer work. If it once worked with old drivers it should work with new drivers. 



R-T-B said:


> This.
> 
> Others can say how invalid opinions are all they want, and how this is a storm in a teacup and all, but people have a right to be mad about what they want to be mad about.   Simple as that.
> 
> ...



Yep, everything really should work and for anyone be it Nvidia or AMD to say something as stupid as the AMD rep did...that's just someone who shouldn't have  their job.


----------



## Prince Valiant (Jan 2, 2018)

Perhaps TPU could (should?) reach out to AMD for more information? All I see in the original thread is a single support team member making a generic blanket statement.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 2, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> But AMD aren't doing it right either. AMD could use all the good PR they can get, and this throws up an obstacle that could be a potential deal killer for someone looking to buy a graphics card that also plays old/older games. This will push some people towards Nvidia rather then stick with AMD.


But you could say the same with some of NVidia choices. The choice to ditch 32bit OS support and the attempt at limiting Datacenter usage are the most recent. Those will have a similar effect, though to different market segments. And this little problem is going to push people to Geforce?


FreedomEclipse said:


> They are alienating themselves from the part of the community that does play these games.


And this is a similar problem that the very same community has had to deal with in the past. It's not new problem. It happens, time marches on and technology with it. AMD is not heartless and likely will figure it out and correct it. Just not a priority for them, and it shouldn't be.


R-T-B said:


> I'm mad because my old games don't work, and that eliminates AMD as a purchasing choice for me. I'm afraid it really is that simple.


Simple though it may be, don't you think that is an over reaction? Do you think it worth AMD's time, or NVidia's for that matter, to tackle what amounts to a minor problem for a seriously minor audience? It's not like the games won't run(from what I've read), they just glitch up with certain "features" enabled. Turn them off and the problem goes away.

It seems the term " Mountains out of mole-hills" would apply very aptly here..

By way of qualification I own, and enjoy, most of those games affected. However, I would not whine and moan about it too much. Instead, I would and have had to find a way to fix it myself. Interestingly enough, a similar problem happened with C&C-TiberianSun with the FireStorm expansion pack and a set of Geforce drivers back in the day. NVidia fixed it a few months later but by then a work-around had been discovered(rolling back to a previous driver).


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 2, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Do you think it worth AMD's time, or NVidia's for that matter, to tackle what amounts to a minor problem for a seriously minor audience?



I don't consider playing old games a minor audience, really.  There may be less cashflow though.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 2, 2018)

I think this is an unintended consequence of adding overlay support to Radeon Settings.


----------



## evernessince (Jan 2, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's your opinion, not shared by everyone, including devs still making damn good games.
> 
> Also an opinion not shared by everyone.
> 
> I'm sensing a trend here..



I think you mean "also an opinion shared by major review outlets" .  I could care less what everyone thinks, it's the facts that matter.  Vega and Fury X were bad cards, almost as bad as bulldozer was for AMD.  Both Vega and the Fury X have made it onto "Most disappointing Tech of the Year" lists.

Also, given AMD's marketshare, I'm pretty sure a majority of PC enthusiasts agree with me.


----------



## anubis44 (Jan 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> NVIDIA runs them fine somehow...
> 
> Also, this post is missing a negative near the break...



Yes, and so do the previous AMD drivers. nVidia users often have to resort to older drivers to play older games. Nothing new there.


----------



## oxidized (Jan 2, 2018)

Jism said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> AMD is not forced to update their latest *new* drivers for games dating back from 2007 or even older. I mean, you could still install a previous driver and hapilly play the game. The adrenaline update is for latest games, cards and all. AMD is right. Why 'waste' valuable engineering resources into drivers for older games? It's just 5.



If you think that's bullshit go ahead, the fact that people still plays DX9 games stays tho, if you open steam stats, you'll find out that several of the most played games top10/20 are still on DX9, like Team Fortress 2 for example, i mean i could understand if they completely removed DX8 or older, and stopped supporting DX9, but breaking DX9 has no sense at all. Aside from this i hope i'm wrong, but that's just the feeling i'm getting, they've been tripping way too much lately, and many times they didn't even excuse or give official statements.


----------



## INSTG8R (Jan 2, 2018)

oxidized said:


> If you think that's bullshit go ahead, the fact that people still plays DX9 games stays tho, if you open steam stats, you'll find out that several of the most played games top10/20 are still on DX9, like Team Fortress 2 for example, i mean i could understand if they completely removed DX8 or older, and stopped supporting DX9, but breaking DX9 has no sense at all. Aside from this i hope i'm wrong, but that's just the feeling i'm getting, they've been tripping way too much lately, and many times they didn't even excuse or give official statements.


Except it’s not “breaking” DX9 it’s just borking half a dozen games, some a decade old. Mountain out of molehill. With the negative press it’s generated I’m sure it will be fixed. They really don’t have too much choice considering the “outrage”...


----------



## Charcharo (Jan 2, 2018)

....This is one of the worst things I have ever read from AMD lol.


OneMoar said:


> buy a older gpu



We are not console gamers here. We are PC Gamers.




OneMoar said:


> but there is no problem
> No your 10 year old games not working is Not a problem its time, time moves on



My 10 year old games are better than new games.



OneMoar said:


> the only way to get rid of the cancer that is DX9 is to cut it out and irradiate the area
> 
> if that means a dozen or so crappy games written by people too stupid to use a modern API die
> 
> ...



Lol. Do you seriously think there is any real gameplay or storytelling progress? All that new games have over old ones... is graphics. Nothing more, nothing less. When it comes down to what actually matters there are DX9 and 10 titles that curbstomp the games of the past year with ease.

To think I would see Hardware Enthusiasts and PC Gamers act like Console fans... disrespecting old games... 2018 is sure starting off well lol


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 2, 2018)

anubis44 said:


> Yes, and so do the previous AMD drivers. nVidia users often have to resort to older drivers to play older games. Nothing new there.



As I later noted, that is true but usually only temporarily and usually ironically, only for cutting edge titles.

What's new is the outright apparent denial that it needs to be fixed.


----------



## hexaae (Jan 2, 2018)

Old "2007 games"? We're not on consoles.
These are PCs, and are expected to be able to run also 20 years ago games.
AMD has no excuse!


----------



## yeeeeman (Jan 2, 2018)

You are either ignorant, stupid or just stubborn, the fix is already available, revert to Crimson Relive, LOL
Why tf you always need to be on latest drivers? Think you gain something?


----------



## RejZoR (Jan 2, 2018)

cdawall said:


> Mining is going that route as well. Nvidia cards are so much user friendly.



Until you want to game at 144Hz on it. And be crazy enough to enable DSR. Or be an absolute madman and expect Fast V-Sync/Adaptive V-Sync actually work without being all screwed up...


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 2, 2018)

yeeeeman said:


> You are either ignorant, stupid or just stubborn, the fix is already available, revert to Crimson Relive, LOL
> Why tf you always need to be on latest drivers? Think you gain something?


Where have you been? We are well into W10 era.  There comes a point that rolling back is not possible (a concept that non-pro version users don't even have, especially average users).  That's not a solution. That is only a temporary workaround.


----------



## Xuper (Jan 2, 2018)

hmm this thread is still alive ? 160 Posts for old DX9 Games! lol


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 2, 2018)

behrouz said:


> hmm this thread is still alive ? 160 Posts for old DX9 Games! lol


You missed the point somewhere. Please brush up on reading comprehension, because that is not the issue.


----------



## 64K (Jan 2, 2018)

This thread is like someone opened up a can of angry and dumped it out on the floor.


----------



## Frick (Jan 2, 2018)

I saw somewhere that Skyrim was broken as well, but that can't be right.

I'm just glad my sister is on an old HD7850 cause she plays lots of older games. Not the games initially reported on, but still. I want to know how deep and wide the problem is, for funsies.


----------



## Gasaraki (Jan 2, 2018)

dicktracy said:


> AMD is a CPU-first company. It's no doubt that their Radeon department is severely starved in resource. It also makes sense why Raja left that ship ASAP because AMD's main goal is to bring back their CPUs to former glory over developing a superior graphics solution. Sad thing for us enthusiasts is that they're going to hold Radeon hostage while their competitiveness against Nvidia diminishes every year.




This this the same funkin excuse people say in every thread where AMD is blowing chunks somehow. If they are so starved for resources, just sell the graphics division already. If you are not willing to spend money to make money, sell it to someone else that will put the R&D and marketing money in.



Romulus2K4 said:


> There is a large amount of retarded AMD fanboys out there who are coming to AMD's defense with excuses like "This is 2018, move along, quit crying" etc. which I believe is pathetic. This doesn't help consumers of AMD products, what this does is force them to switch over to the green side, and never look back again.
> 
> This can not be a legit excuse for not supporting older software. And even when DX9 was current-gen, AMD's support at launch for plenty of games were shaky, and there are countless games that still run with sub-par performance to this date, like ARMA 3.
> 
> ...




I can personally say that the one time I owned an AMD card, it refused to work on some obscure Japanese game that was like 2 years old. My next nVidia card, I tried firing up the game and it worked just fine. After that I said I would never buy another AMD card even if they were better performing.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 2, 2018)

anubis44 said:


> Yes, and so do the previous AMD drivers. nVidia users often have to resort to older drivers to play older games. Nothing new there.





ManofGod said:


> Looks to me like Microsoft's way of doing it is working much better than OpenGL. The Direct X performance is typically better than OpenGL and more robust to boot.
> 
> 
> 
> Until it doesn't or you have to install a different driver just to get one game to work.



You can really tell who the long time AMD users are.   Using different drivers.....

When was the last time nvidia users had to do this? Please cite me a source for this rather then spreading FUD. I can say, as a nvidia user since the geforce 4 MX 400, that it has been a very, very long time since nvidia users have had to regularly do this. The last time I did that was the....9000 series I think? And that issue was fixed relatively quickly. Occasionally a new driver will break something really old, but said issue is usually patched by nvidia with the next release.

Meanwhile, AMD let this PR nightmare build, and has yet to respond officially as internet outrage lights up. DX9, despite what _SOME PEOPLE_ on this forum say, is still used on some newer games, ignoring that a massive portion of the PC gaming library still uses it. If AMD's attitude to DX9 is "screw it, its old" it wont be long until many AMD users are forced to go nvidia or stick with 400/500 or older cards, at least until such old drivers are not compatible with the current version of windows 10.

AMD has long suffered from bad PR on top of technical incompetence, but this is a bit of a gut blow. It's already bad enough that you cant buy their hardware almost anywhere, and that they have delivered the market to nvidia on a silver platter for a second time in a row, but now this issue pops up. It's just another black eye to AMD's now permanetly bruised face.

And for all the AMD 'fans' here white knighting them, if you want a huge chunk of your game library to be made unplayable, go buy a console. PC gamers expect their older software to continue working with newer OS/drivers, that is a pillar of the PC gaming community, and has been for decades. If AMD wants to limit themselves to low margin console sales, so be it. Not to mention, many current MMOs, FTP games, and competitive games are still DX9. These games are typically played with lower end hardware, where AMD typically dominates. AMD could easily be telegraphing these people 'go buy nvidia, you are not coin miners' to one of the few markets they still compete in.


----------



## john_ (Jan 2, 2018)

This sucks big time. 

Imagine a rocky island in sea. 

AMD's CPU division is flying over it, on an airplane.
AMD's GPU divition is going strait to it, with a submarine. No chance of survival.


----------



## 64K (Jan 2, 2018)

Gasaraki said:


> This this the same funkin excuse people say in every thread where AMD is blowing chunks somehow. If they are so starved for resources, just sell the graphics division already. If you are not willing to spend money to make money, sell it to someone else that will put the R&D and marketing money in.



Well, you pretty much answered your own question there. They are willing to spend money to make money but they have a limited budget. They have nowhere near the budget of Intel and Nvidia combined to compete with both at the same time. They can't sell RTG and continue in business with future APUs and console contracts. Who would buy RTG at this point anyway. Like it or not everyone including Intel and Nvidia need AMD to exist......but only barely.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 2, 2018)

john_ said:


> This sucks big time.
> 
> Imagine a rocky island in sea.
> 
> ...


To complete the analogy, imagine both were tied together with indestructible rope. AMD invests a ton in R+D into RTG, and needs RTG tech for their APU and console/custom sales to survive. If that sub sinks too far, it will pull the plane into the rocks as well.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't consider playing old games a minor audience, really.  There may be less cashflow though.


Good point. Classic gaming is a substantial market, one that I partake in. My point was that the games in question represent a small portion of that market.


evernessince said:


> I think you mean "also an opinion shared by major review outlets" .  I could care less what everyone thinks, it's the facts that matter.  Vega and Fury X were bad cards, almost as bad as bulldozer was for AMD.  Both Vega and the Fury X have made it onto "Most disappointing Tech of the Year" lists.
> 
> Also, given AMD's marketshare, I'm pretty sure a majority of PC enthusiasts agree with me.


More nonobjective opinions not supported by known facts and reality. But that's the great thing about a free world, anyone is free to have and express any notion they wish, regardless of how uninformed it is..


----------



## cdawall (Jan 2, 2018)

RejZoR said:


> Until you want to game at 144Hz on it. And be crazy enough to enable DSR. Or be an absolute madman and expect Fast V-Sync/Adaptive V-Sync actually work without being all screwed up...



I actually had a 144hz Asus rog 3440x1440p plugged into 3 maxwell cards running sli for a very long time. Never once did I have issues...that was with gsync running.


----------



## TheDeeGee (Jan 2, 2018)

Meanwhile the list of affected Games is getting longer and longer.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7ncr3y


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 2, 2018)

TheDeeGee said:


> Meanwhile the list of affected Games is getting longer and longer.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7ncr3y





> *Some people can get these games running regardless with Adrenalin drivers. This does not mean that there is not a problem! We don't currently know why it works for some and not for others.*


So tons of unknowns then.. If you have a problem with a game you play, roll your drivers back to 17.12.1 or even 17.11.4. Problem solved.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 2, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> So tons of unknowns then.. If you have a problem with a game you play, roll your drivers back to 17.12.1 or even 17.11.4. Problem solved.



Until patch Wednesday hits and 17.12.2 is pushed on everyone with a gcn gpu.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 2, 2018)

PAYDAY 2 doesn't belong on that list.  The game got lots of content lately and they haven't bothered to fix the crashing bugs in it.  It was doing it before Adrenaline released.  Overkill has been silent on them even though threads have been pouring out over them.


----------



## kruk (Jan 2, 2018)

You can stop fighting now folks, a fix is in the works :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948224999726501890
Also this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948227463188017152


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 2, 2018)

TheDeeGee said:


> Meanwhile the list of affected Games is getting longer and longer.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7ncr3y


Some good stuff there. Thanks for compiling it into one place!


----------



## INSTG8R (Jan 2, 2018)

kruk said:


> You can stop fighting now folks, a fix is in the works :
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948224999726501890
> ...


Mountain from a molehill just as I said. They will fix it as expected.  So much BS over this when the latest Adrenalines have more serious known issues(FreeSync, Adaptive Sync is borked, I know from my own experience with them and my FreeSync monitor)and our Vangaurd members confirming it.


----------



## xkm1948 (Jan 2, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> Mountain from a molehill just as I said. They will fix it as expected.  So much BS over this when the latest Adrenalines have more serious known issues(FreeSync, Adaptive Sync is borked, I know from my own experience with them and my FreeSync monitor)and our Vangaurd members confirming it.



Most likely the DX9 bug is way easier to fix


----------



## INSTG8R (Jan 2, 2018)

xkm1948 said:


> Most likely the DX9 bug is way easier to fix


Hope not. I get black screens using Adaptive Sync in ED(minor as I run it at 144hz)FO4 is completely borked regardless and locks at 45fps(previously needed to disable FreeSync to get rid of the lock) I have a ton of games but those are 2 I’m playing at the moment and both have issues.
Edit: also FO4 runs perfectly at 1080 but at my native 1440 those issues are there.


----------



## yogurt_21 (Jan 2, 2018)

it's funny I didn't realize how old some of these were. You read "10 year old" title and somehow you think Starcraft or Neverwinter nights or vampires the maquerade (redemption not bloodlines) but those are all closer to 20 years old...

now I feel old. 

Will watch how this goes. I play quite a few of those 10 and 20 year old games still and will be in the market for a gpu this summer. (currently using on an old 760 which works but is slow. )


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jan 2, 2018)

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...game-incompatibility-issues-after-all.240159/

This thread needs to be closed as it is unnecessary to continue to libel the company.

People jump the gun here all the time and it makes me sick, @Kursah @infrared, @Norton please request this thread be closed as it is not needed.


----------



## Freez (Jan 2, 2018)

That thread give me a feel being old. Thanks, i guess.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 2, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...game-incompatibility-issues-after-all.240159/
> 
> This thread needs to be closed as it is unnecessary to continue to libel the company.
> 
> People jump the gun here all the time and it makes me sick, @Kursah @infrared, @Norton please request this thread be closed as it is not needed.



Why does it need to be closed. Amd said we aren't going to fix this, got GOBS of bad PR and went oh shit maybe we will. This should stay open for the posterity of the fact of what DID happen.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jan 2, 2018)

cdawall said:


> Why does it need to be closed. Amd said we aren't going to fix this, got GOBS of bad PR and went oh shit maybe we will. This should stay open for the posterity of the fact of what DID happen.



Did you even read that thread!?


----------



## cdawall (Jan 2, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Did you even read that thread!?



Yes it started with amd going yes we said we wouldn't fix it, then moved onto we saw people didn't like this and ended with we are going to fix it. 

This thread should exist because it shows yet again amd back peddling on their own stupid product engine being garbage. This is an issue they have had for years. 

On the note of backpeddling have you seen that the vega FE cards are now for "blockchain entrepreneurs" you know the same vega cards amd said were not for miners? 

AMD is PR is back to being an absolute joke.


----------



## fullinfusion (Jan 2, 2018)

We need a pole in this thread.
It should say whoever Post in this thread are you Nvidia AMD?.. 

I bet you 98% of the people posting in this form are Nvidia users .. why is it when the Green Team fucks up everybody is all hush-hush except for the 970 and there false Advertisement on vram Fiasco. And man was there a lot of crying going on.. 

And that's okay you won't hurt my feelings by calling me in AMD fanboy.. I wear my colors with pride 

But you know what my card does the job just as good as the other side. 

And here's a little bit and Bob for some of you.. get away from that computer monitor and go outside and get some fresh air and see actually how beautiful the world is instead of pissing and moaning about a device but you can't take with you when you die 

Cya


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jan 2, 2018)

And some of us are users of both.


----------



## Fluffmeister (Jan 2, 2018)

This should never have happened, I blame their Vanguard Beta Testers.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 2, 2018)

fullinfusion said:


> We need a pole in this thread.
> It should say whoever Post in this thread are you Nvidia AMD?..
> 
> I bet you 98% of the people posting in this form are Nvidia users .. why is it when the Green Team fucks up everybody is all hush-hush except for the 970 and there false Advertisement on vram Fiasco. And man was there a lot of crying going on..
> ...



It is cold outside right now. So I am sitting in front of my vega FE card using it for what it does best. Massively underlcocked and running in my htpc. Cool, quiet and plenty fast at 1080P


----------



## Prince Valiant (Jan 3, 2018)

cdawall said:


> Yes it started with amd going yes we said we wouldn't fix it, then moved onto we saw people didn't like this and ended with we are going to fix it.
> 
> This thread should exist because it shows yet again amd back peddling on their own stupid product engine being garbage. This is an issue they have had for years.
> 
> ...


A single forum rep. hardly equals company policy. They made a vague statement not committing one way or another.

Running a story like this without a fact check was shameful.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 3, 2018)

Prince Valiant said:


> A single forum rep. hardly equals company policy. They made a vague statement not committing one way or another.
> 
> Running a story like this without a fact check was shameful.



What fact check? AMD said that they said it in the PR blast for the new one. Company policy or not lack of training is an obvious problem and I don't care what company you work for, what you say represents them. Especially as a forum rep for that company. Those individuals should be above reproach. This one was not and it represents AMD atrociously. 

Also this is not vague, this is not one way or another. "unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue."


----------



## fullinfusion (Jan 3, 2018)

Fluffmeister said:


> This should never have happened, I blame their Vanguard Beta Testers.


Bahahahahah, good one fluffy.. 
Ignore idiotic comments re-applied [✓] yup bye bye


----------



## R0H1T (Jan 3, 2018)

Fluffmeister said:


> This should never have happened, I blame their Vanguard Beta Testers.


I blame Raja, should've never left the *light*


----------



## Prince Valiant (Jan 3, 2018)

cdawall said:


> What fact check? AMD said that they said it in the PR blast for the new one. Company policy or not lack of training is an obvious problem and I don't care what company you work for, what you say represents them. Especially as a forum rep for that company. Those individuals should be above reproach. This one was not and it represents AMD atrociously.
> 
> Also this is not vague, this is not one way or another. "unlikely to devote any valuable engineering resources to this issue."


Where do they say this in a PR? It's certainly not in the Adrenalin PR. I agree but that doesn't mean that a single forum post should be taken out of context without clarification. That's exactly why it should have been clarified.

Unlikely doesn't mean yes or no. 

The forum rep. needs a good scolding and tech sites got carried away again; other than that there's nothing to see here.


----------



## romulus2k17 (Jan 3, 2018)

Hi, Romulus2K4 here. As I asked the moderator Khusra or what's his name to delete my posts, and then ban me. The bloke did half the job. He only banned me, and didn't delete any of my posts. Which lead me to receiving notifications and emails from this thread whenever someone "liked or quoted my posts" all I could see is this when I clicked on my notifications:



Spoiler










So that's fine and all. So what if I tried logging out?



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More of the same.



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Tell your webmaster to give a user the chance to log out of your precious site once he's banned, and stop emailing him about notifications once he's banned. Now that I am done with that, the only reason I did decide to sign up here is to shed some light on the truth of a very important matter.

AMD Reps have this terrible habit of giving out stupid responses as I have said in a post, previously. You might be thinking I am saying this without any proof to back this up. So let's have a look at a more recent response from *ray_m*.

Guru3D's very own z8373767 decided to inquire at AMD's official community whether it was possible for the R9 Fury line up of cards to receive the HBCC feature. Note, you can read this long ass wall of text of a post without clicking any spoilers, but the images within the spoilers are used as a safeguard in this particular case as I have had the nasty experience of getting booted out of forums due to people (representatives of popular manufacturers.. cough..) simply editing their previous statements, and leaving one such as me with no proof to back my claims up. Here is the reply he received:



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For those of you who are too lazy to click spoilers, I'll quote him here:



			
				ray_m said:
			
		

> No, since there have been several products launched since the R9 Fury series was released, they will not be updated.



Source: Here.​
Is it just me or the wording used by *ray_m* sounds kind of like the R9 Fury could "potentially" have the HBCC feature, but it won't be added just because it's old? Now some of you might say that "HBCC" is a VEGA hardware thing. I am sure, it probably is. But instead of saying so, why did he have to say it like that? It isn't too far off from the response he gave regarding the DX9 game issues, and a point to be made, the thread got locked in a similar fashion.

Some of the more devoted AMD fans in this section of the forum might think I am getting ahead of myself with this. Then let's take a trip down memory lane.

On the *5th December*, *2015*, AMD released their first major yearly driver overhaul, known as the AMD Catalyst Omega. It came with a number of bug fixes and some added features, one of them was VSR aka Virtual Super Resolution. I'll quote exactly what AMD says at their Site in Catalyst Omega's release notes:

*Virtual Super Resolution (VSR):*

Render games at higher resolution and display them at lower resolution.  Up to 4k quality gaming on 1080p HD displays


    Smoother textures and edges
    Game and Engine agnostic solution
    Simulates Super Sampling Anti-Aliasing (SSAA) for games that don't support it
    Enabled through AMD Catalyst™ Control Center
    Select higher resolution in-game settings
    Available on AMD Radeon™ R9 290 series, and AMD Radeon R9 285 GPUs




The first thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the fact that the R9 290/R9 290X cards do not have 4K VSR support, whereas the much inferior R9 285 (and theoretically the R7 260X) has it. AMD says that it's due to some hardware limitations. And as you may have noticed, that the HD 7000 cards are completely absent at the time.

Some of the more devoted AMD fans at the time argued that the HD 7000 series of cards simply don't possess the horsepower to drive past 1080p resolution, which isn't wrong for DX11 games, but then the question that comes to one's mind: why was the R9 285 with 2GB VRAM,  given the ability to VSR up to 4K? The view on it still hasn't changed to this date though, I am allowing myself to quote someone from this very thread to prove exactly what I mean:



Aquinus said:


> VSR is a very different thing though because it was more of a matter of "how well will the GPU drive it," not a "can the GPU even do it." Changes to how video data gets stored tends to require hardware changes due to the latency-sensitive nature of DRAM whereas with VSR, it was more of a "how well will it perform and do we want to expose a setting if it's likely going to run like crap every time." It's kind of like async compute on GCN 1.0. Sure, you can run it but, if it's not going to help and sometimes could cause performance regressions when it is used, why bother enabling it?
> 
> ...but, if you're still convinced, maybe you should give AMD a call and offer them your expertise to "fix their drivers," since you seem to know how this all works. I'm sure they could use another C developer to work on their drivers.




Now let's fast forward to *March 21*,*2015*, after a blackout of three months from Catalyst Omega, finally the " AMD Catalyst 15.3 Beta Driver for Windows OS" was released. Here is a what an AMD rep had to say about VSR support on HD 7000 series of cards in the discussion thread of the aforementioned drivers:



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Again, for those of you who are not really wanting to click Spoilers, or find the cropped image blurry, unreadable..



			
				AMDMatt said:
			
		

> We're exploring additional methods to bring VSR to the R9 270/280, however we won't be bringing VSR to the 7xxx series.



To which a user from the very same forum responded:



			
				Michalko said:
			
		

> What the ****? Im done with AMD.. 280x is just renamed 7970GHz so why would 7970GHz does not get VSR? Nvidia enabled supersampling on all their DX11 cards..



Clearly @Michalko is overreacting, correct? He has no notion of the technical limitations that are involved.

As it was explained later:



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Again, for those of you who are not really wanting to click Spoilers, or find the cropped image blurry, unreadable.. here's the quote:



			
				AMDMatt said:
			
		

> There are board and bios level differences between the cards. The scaler on the 7970 is not capable.



Okay.. seems legit. And but there's more where that came from:



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Again, for those of you who are not really wanting to click Spoilers, or find the cropped image blurry, unreadable.. here's the quote:



			
				AMDMatt said:
			
		

> As i said above guys, we're working on exploring our options to bring VSR to the R9 270/280, this includes the 'X' versions.



So at this point, it is pretty evident from what that:

VSR support won't be coming to the HD 7000 series
The R9 270/270X/280/280X cards will have VSR support through "additional methods"
The R9 270/270X/280/280X cards have board and BIOS level differences compared to their HD 7000 counterparts

The HD 7970 (and supposedly the HD 7950, HD 7870, and HD 7700) are incapable of VSR as the scaler it has isn't capable.

That was all fine and dandy, till the* 24th of March, 2015*, exactly 3 days after the release of Catalyst 15.3, this happened:



			
				asder00 said:
			
		

> This is the Windows 10 driver distributed via Windows Update, now modified to work with Win 8.1.
> 
> VSR and FPS limiter are enabled (the card must support it) CCC is from 15.3 Beta to avoid issues.
> Based on reports in this thread looks like VSR is working for HD7000, R7, R9 280 and possibly more so try for yourself and report back.
> ...



A modified driver allowed 4K VSR on R9 290 cards, and brought VSR and other features to HD 7000 cards, which seemingly was not possible, and initially declared won't be supported by an AMD rep.

A couple of months later, on the *8th of July*, with the release of AMD Catalyst 15.7, AMD brought VSR support to it's HD 7000 series and the rest of the R7/R9 200 lineup, with still the (artificial?!) limitation in place to this date on 4K resolution for R9 290/290X cards and the others.




If it wasn't for that modded driver that allowed VSR on HD 7000 series of cards, there is a good chance that these cards, despite being perfectly capable, wouldn't have gotten VSR due to AMD's incompetence. As the modded driver proved, these magical scalers aren't needed for cards to do VSR, and with the same tweaks, even older cards like the HD 5000 and the HD 6000 could do it too, and to this date, the R9 290/290X cards aren't allowed to VSR up to 4K. The same is applicable to AMD's R9 390/R9 390X. I wonder why AMD decided to rebadge the Hawaii chips with slightly better yields with 8GB of VRAM buffer if they had no plans to give it 4K VSR capabilities? GeDoSaTo is a 3rd party app that has to inject code into an executable, and it always doesn't work as intended. I can't get it to work with Assassin's Creed II despite GeDoSaTo claiming it works for him. Had AMD provided 4K VSR support, I wouldn't be needing to plug a nvidia card into my system just to enjoy an old classic at unprecedented visuals, for example. Carelessness is how AMD loses consumers, and the attitude from their "devoted" fan base doesn't help consumers either.

Now I'll allow myself to quote myself in a response to Aquinus:



Romulus2K4 said:


> And I say you don't know jack regarding what you're talking about, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.  HBCC and Delta Color compression are miles apart as far as features go.
> 
> You have that distinct smell of a Fanboy, which I am very familiar with.
> 
> GCN 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4



Apparently this forum would ask user's for their permission whether they want to opt in on CPU mining while browsing, review performance of games with explicit language and nudity like The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt, but will consider calling an overly devoted fan to the cause of it's cherished manufacturer a fanboy as swearing. Okay.

And just to point out, the moderator bloke found this post appropriate:



OneMoar said:


> and @Romulus2K4
> shadup god everytime you post I want to cut my self



Favoritism at it's best.

Back to the matter at hand.

It is safe to assume, that *ray_m*'s response could've been AMD's official stance on the matter, had the user who created the topic didn't bring it to light on Reddit. I knew that the bugs are going to get fixed, and I knew that the response from *ray_m* was simply wrong, but it only got AMD's attention faster after the Tech Press jumped in on reporting the issue. Even during this, there were tons of consumers who doesn't care about anything but their own selfish needs started to deem DX9 game support as irrelevant, going as far as to blame the game developers for it and not AMD.. for an issue that only reared it's head only after the Adrenalin Drivers were released, not before that. There are almost three times the number of games that're running on DX9 out there compared to DX11, and this whole ordeal only shows how Dysfunctional AMD's official community is, as far as communicating with different segments of it's own team goes.  The green team in recent times, only got caught with it's pants down with the GTX 970 that shipped with 3.5 GB+0.5 GB of VRAM configuration, which the consumers weren't aware of at launch. They did offer people refunds, and the amount of people who refunded their cards were too far, and too few. AMD cashed in on the situation with a promotion called "4GB means 4GB" but had forgotten the wide number of consumers who returned their R9 290/290X cards due to the sleep bug that AMD couldn't get their head around in the first 7 odd months after these cards were released, and ended up returning it.

I can go on about how VEGA Frontier Edition, being dubbed as the Scientific card initially is now being touted as the Blockchain Pioneer, bait and switch pricing of VEGA cards, the R9 Fury X being referred as the overclocker's dream(!?) as far as PR BS'ing goes. Not to mention the $30 Million Settlement with investors. Though the RX 560 thing isn't entirely AMD's fault.

One last quote to round it all off:


> "Tha tan taraflop berriar to ennthusiasht gaeming has finally been broken.. we karrushed the competition" (I swear that is how he pronounced it.)
> 
> Subtitle: (The 10 Teraflop barrier to enthusiast gaming has finally been broken.. we crushed the competition..)
> -Raja Koduri


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## LocoDiceGR (Jan 5, 2018)

Problem Fixed.


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## Ricky Silverman (Jan 25, 2018)

Runescape required me to update my graphics driver for my RX470. My 3rd screen went blue. Can't get it to work again. RIIIPPP! (sound of me tearing the RX POS out of my motherboard.)
I am now using the onboard 1G graphics card. Spent $300 on a 4G card just to have a driver update make it garbage. So tired of Windows 10 and AMD making me buy new equipment. Would go to Mac, but the cost, OH the COST. :-(


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## FordGT90Concept (Jan 25, 2018)

The problem should be fixed now across all GCN graphics cards (18.1.1 driver).

"3rd screen went blue..." does that screen work properly with the onboard graphics?


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## Ricky Silverman (Jan 25, 2018)

It worked great for over 1 year with the RX470. The onboard card will only allow me 2 monitors, thus the need for a card.


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## Space Lynx (Jan 27, 2018)

Why has this topic not been locked, AMD fixed this like a week ago with new drivers, lol...


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## FordGT90Concept (Jan 27, 2018)

Ricky Silverman said:


> It worked great for over 1 year with the RX470. The onboard card will only allow me 2 monitors, thus the need for a card.


Sounds like your card might have died.  Has nothing to do with this thread though.


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## Ricky Silverman (Jan 27, 2018)

The new drivers did not fix all. That's the point of my post. I had 3 running monitors, now only 2 work after the Adrenalin update. My AOC monitor went Blue.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jan 27, 2018)

If you had the card + onboard, have you tried swapping them around so the AOC is connected to the onboard?

How are your monitors connected?


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## Ricky Silverman (Jan 29, 2018)

I have not tried that yet. I assumed that the onboard would not work with the RX470 active. I will try that today and let you know the result. Thank you!


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## FordGT90Concept (Jan 29, 2018)

No reason why you can't use both simultaneously.  Power consumption on the CPU will go up though.


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