# Connection sync speeds and proportions



## newconroer (Aug 23, 2014)

Anyone familiar with the finer details of telecoms and broadband or fibre?

Is the overhead and speed loss (due to distance, quality of cabling etc), a static figure or dynamic based on the service type?

If for example you have broadband and sync half the speed that your line is rated at (e.g. 10mb down instead of 20mb down (which would be maximum)), would you experience the same 10mb loss with a faster service that offered 50mb down?; resulting in only 40mb down? Or would it still be roughly 50% loss?


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## DRDNA (Aug 23, 2014)

Well if the choke on your Internet speed is actually on your end such as wiring or what not then you will still have the same ish  choke on your bandwidth. If the issue is on their side then you may be able to get them to fix it and changing internet providers may help if their really is not a hardware
issue some where meaning that your current provider is responsible for the choking.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 23, 2014)

Fiber to the node(from central office to street cabinet)from there to copper there is a distance limit for uverse triple play service, along with ipdsl service) you want to be less than 2200 ft for the best possible tri play service without any cable faults, the further you are the noise margin (measured in dba) decreases,attenuation gets weaker and bandwidth required (capacity) just to keep modem in sync increases which are all bad for service.


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## newconroer (Aug 23, 2014)

DRDNA said:


> Well if the choke on your Internet speed is actually on your end such as wiring or what not then you will still have the same ish  choke on your bandwidth. If the issue is on their side then you may be able to get them to fix it and changing internet providers may help if their really is not a hardware
> issue some where meaning that your current provider is responsible for the choking.



At this point, I am certain it's simply due to infrastructure and distance (the typical things). 



eidairaman1 said:


> Fiber to the node(from central office to street cabinet)from there to copper there is a distance limit for uverse triple play service, along with ipdsl service) you want to be less than 2200 ft for the best possible tri play service without any cable faults, the further you are the noise margin (measured in dba) decreases,attenuation gets weaker and bandwidth required (capacity) just to keep modem in sync increases which are all bad for service.



Right, I can't do anything about from the node/exchange to the cabinet. But if the new service/lines are using the same node and cabinet(s) then I would expect whatever overhead and loss I do experience currently, would stay roughly the same (in terms of MB).


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## Steevo (Aug 23, 2014)

Can you log into the modem and tell us the SNR, Db for up and down, and then I would measure the line voltage and ground difference between the line and your house ground.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 23, 2014)

Vdsl for att per 1000ft~10mb loss on overall bandwidth to sustain internet,voip,ip tv~ total bandwidth provided to sustain all svcs is 25mb for distances greater than 2200 ft. 32mb for less than 2200 ft. 3000+ ft you need 2 signals going from node to the modem (2 copper pairs all the way to the modem directly) known as bonded pair. Vdsl Internet profiles are 1.5,3,6,12,18,24. Ipdsl can go greater distances~10000 ft on single pair ,profiles are 768k,1.5;3,6,12,18. The higher the profile internet speed the shorter distance it goes. Lets just say if your home was built in the 70s most likely the copper is as old or older. Ideal conditions, without corrosion,taps or other cable faults all the way to the modem,with a loop of 2200ft or less 18meg internet profile gets maximum of 22Megs. Ive seen it on bonded pair too.


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## newconroer (Aug 23, 2014)

Steevo said:


> Can you log into the modem and tell us the SNR, Db for up and down, and then I would measure the line voltage and ground difference between the line and your house ground.


Not just yet, I should be able to within a week at the premises.



eidairaman1 said:


> Vdsl for att per 1000ft~10mb loss on overall bandwidth to sustain internet,voip,ip tv~ total bandwidth provided to sustain all svcs is 25mb for distances greater than 2200 ft. 32mb for less than 2200 ft. 3000+ ft you need 2 signals going from node to the modem (2 copper pairs all the way to the modem directly) known as bonded pair. Vdsl Internet profiles are 1.5,3,6,12,18,24. Ipdsl can go greater distances~10000 ft on single pair ,profiles are 768k,1.5;3,6,12,18. The higher the profile internet speed the shorter distance it goes. Lets just say if your home was built in the 70s most likely the copper is as old or older. Ideal conditions, without corrosion,taps or other cable faults all the way to the modem,with a loop of 2200ft or less 18meg internet profile gets maximum of 22Megs. Ive seen it on bonded pair too.



I took from that in the first instance, every 1000ft = 10mb loss. At the end however you say 2200ft equates to about four meg?


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## Steevo (Aug 23, 2014)

It isn't linear loss, and modern modems can compensate, they perform line testing during initialization to get the best speeds under the cap given. 

The Db and SNR are the most important, digital content has to have a specific bandwidth to achieve throughput, otherwise the closest lower value is used, making the system dependent on the weakest link.


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## newconroer (Aug 23, 2014)

I'll get the modem stats up asap, thanks.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 24, 2014)

Whats the make n model of your modem?


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## newconroer (Aug 24, 2014)

It's a BT Home Hub 5. I do not know who manufacturers these.

In regards to my original question, I did some more digging and through the same ISP, their LLU broadband gives a 19mb downstream theoretical, and in practice we know I see 10mb max. Their fibre service offers 80mb downstream and rate my estimated throughput at 40mb. To my understanding, all the relevant lines/copper on my side are the same and yet with the better service, I lose roughly half, which coincidentally is the amount I lose with the slower service as well.

I would have thought that the fibre core from the exchange to the cabinet, is surely better and more capable than the aluminium bundled line from the exchange?

Weird.


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## Steevo (Aug 25, 2014)

Are you confusing Mega BIT, and Mega Byte? I have 30Megabit download, which with overhead and allowances usually nets me 25-35Mb, and that equates to 2-3.5MegaBYTE per second download. Plus it is hard to find good servers to speed test from when your ISP may limit individual streams, so having multiple connections or users performing downloads may be allowed up to the advertised speed but not one single stream.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Its the copper from the cabinet and not the central office ipdsl-rt and vdsl are fiber to the node. Ipdsl-co the equipment is in the co.



newconroer said:


> It's a BT Home Hub 5. I do not know who manufacturers these.
> 
> In regards to my original question, I did some more digging and through the same ISP, their LLU broadband gives a 19mb downstream theoretical, and in practice we know I see 10mb max. Their fibre service offers 80mb downstream and rate my estimated throughput at 40mb. To my understanding, all the relevant lines/copper on my side are the same and yet with the better service, I lose roughly half, which coincidentally is the amount I lose with the slower service as well.
> 
> ...


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## newconroer (Aug 25, 2014)

Steevo said:


> Are you confusing Mega BIT, and Mega Byte? I have 30Megabit download, which with overhead and allowances usually nets me 25-35Mb, and that equates to 2-3.5MegaBYTE per second download. Plus it is hard to find good servers to speed test from when your ISP may limit individual streams, so having multiple connections or users performing downloads may be allowed up to the advertised speed but not one single stream.



No. On LLU I sync at 10megabit on a 20megabit service. For a new 80megabit service they estimate me at 40megabit. In each case this is half, which I'd say is mostly down to distance from the cabinet.


eidairaman1 said:


> Its the copper from the cabinet and not the central office ipdsl-rt and vdsl are fiber to the node. Ipdsl-co the equipment is in the co.



Right, in both cases it's the same copper from the cabinet to the premises. I guess ultimately it doesn't matter since the copper to the house is the same.

I am quite perplexed though at why my phone number shows up at a cabinet twice as far away, and yet rates me at better speeds. I kept my number at the same location - does that affect which cabinet I am on?


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## newconroer (Sep 6, 2014)

In the end we got about half the theoretical speed. My conclusion is then that the determining factor was the last run of copper up to the premises and will continue to be the factor until we use a service that uses different cabling/piping e.g. fibre to the home.

Thanks eidaira and Steve.


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## Steevo (Sep 7, 2014)

I would still check the ground potential and make sure the loop is terminated correctly, may be all you need.


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## Aquinus (Sep 7, 2014)

You're on DSL, right? How old are all of your phone filters? I've heard of them failing over time pretty regularly. You might be introducing noise on to the line somewhere if your filters are old. Just an idea.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 7, 2014)

newconroer said:


> In the end we got about half the theoretical speed. My conclusion is then that the determining factor was the last run of copper up to the premises and will continue to be the factor until we use a service that uses different cabling/piping e.g. fibre to the home.
> 
> Thanks eidaira and Steve.



Uverse-fttn-fiber from co to node,copper from node to terminal (burried/ground,aerial-colored green,gray,black,silver Att/Bell/canister) copper drop(aerial/buried) from terminal to nid(phonebox) to home phone wiring (non uverse dsl and uverse customer self install internet use the white blue pair or green red pair going to all jacks from nid in a home in daisy chain in home dsl/phone filter is used and phone filters at other jacks) Uverse Internet only and Ipdslam dsl fulltech install constitutes, if customer has pots- not voip, a single filter is installed at the nid and the white blue/green red pair carries the phone. They try to dedicate a secondary pair (from nid to 1 jack only with out other jacks tied to that same pair) if that line is good for data transmission otherwise cat5 home run or coax is used going from the nid to where the modem sits. If in a single story home with the nid on the home and not the detached garage, cat5 line is easily ran if you allow them to run it externally if your office/game room is on an external wall, this is for internet/voip only not tv). Since youre so far from a  Dsl/ Uverse Node (must be atleast 3000-5400ft in loop distance away) there is the bonded pair loop (When being switched from non uverse dsl to Uverse Service)-2 pairs of burried/aerial lines are used) but it only works if the buried/aerial cabling is good without any faults and in most cases a cat5 home run has to be ran. Otherwise id say comcast is the other option.


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## newconroer (Sep 7, 2014)

Aquinus said:


> You're on DSL, right? How old are all of your phone filters? I've heard of them failing over time pretty regularly. You might be introducing noise on to the line somewhere if your filters are old. Just an idea.



Fibre. It doesn't use any filters.


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## Aquinus (Sep 7, 2014)

newconroer said:


> Fibre. It doesn't use any filters.


I thought in an earlier post you said you didn't have FTTP yet, I'm confused.



newconroer said:


> In the end we got about half the theoretical speed. *My conclusion is then that the determining factor was the last run of copper up to the premises and will continue to be the factor until we use a service that uses different cabling/piping e.g. fibre to the home.*



Did you switch to fiber?


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## newconroer (Sep 7, 2014)

Hey there, yes we did - obviously something I forgot to mention! My package is 80/20 (80 on the left, 20 on the right gnome-sayin!! Ok enough Jroc).







I have noticed a poor upstream, and the below shows the two IP profiles. What I do not follow is why I have near full saturation and throughput on my downstream and yet under 50% on my upstream.
It's as if the the downstream profile is dynamic and the upstream is an absolute based off the theoretical maximum.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 7, 2014)

Aquinus said:


> I thought in an earlier post you said you didn't have FTTP yet, I'm confused.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you switch to fiber?



Fttp is normally found on homes built in last 10 years

Take a snapshot of the area around the power meter and all components mounted in that area on your home. I can tell you normally if youre on fiber or copper


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## Aquinus (Sep 8, 2014)

eidairaman1 said:


> Fttp is normally found on homes built in last 10 years


Where do you get this information from? FTTP depends on what is available in your area, not how old your house is. You could get fiber installed in a 200 year old house if you wanted to. Also if a new house is built in an area without fiber, there won't be any FTTP, even more so if there isn't expected to be any in the near future.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 8, 2014)

Aquinus said:


> Where do you get this information from? FTTP depends on what is available in your area, not how old your house is. You could get fiber installed in a 200 year old house if you wanted to. Also if a new house is built in an area without fiber, there won't be any FTTP, even more so if there isn't expected to be any in the near future.



I live And work in Houston Area for Att. Im a premesis technician. I can look up the age of a home and pretty much tell what kind of wiring is in it. Parts of Cypress,Fulshur,Katy,Richmond/Rosenberg, are fttp and were built within past 10 years. Some newer homes in those areas are fttn still


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## Solaris17 (Sep 8, 2014)

I have FTTP and my house was built in 1958


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 8, 2014)

Solaris17 said:


> I have FTTP and my house was built in 1958



Take a snapshot of the phonebox on your home, if its fttp you should have b/gpon ont near your power meter and a power supply mounted somewhere in your home. by the way does the rg(modem) use a ethernet connection as its broadband port?


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## Solaris17 (Sep 8, 2014)

yes I have an ONT on my outer wall with a verizon branded UPS in the other side of the wall inside the home and an ethernet cable drilled through the wall connecting to my modem.

Why do you think your the only one that knows this stuff?


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 8, 2014)

Well Verizon took the time to push it up to your home instead of keeping you on copper node. I never insinuated I was the only one that knows, you did. It seems you try to pick fights/trollbait...Such a waste...


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## Seany1212 (Sep 8, 2014)

Or he could have paid for the privilege? 

Back on topic, OP there's a few graphs about for VDSL speed over distance, maybe this will help http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-bt-fttc-vdsl2-speed-against-distance


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## Aquinus (Sep 8, 2014)

Seany1212 said:


> Or he could have paid for the privilege?
> 
> Back on topic, OP there's a few graphs about for VDSL speed over distance, maybe this will help http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/2013/chart-bt-fttc-vdsl2-speed-against-distance



He just clarified that he upgraded to FTTP from DSL.


Aquinus said:


> I thought in an earlier post you said you didn't have FTTP yet, I'm confused.
> Did you switch to fiber?





newconroer said:


> Hey there, *yes we did - obviously something I forgot to mention*! My package is 80/20 (80 on the left, 20 on the right gnome-sayin!! Ok enough Jroc).



--


eidairaman1 said:


> Well Verizon took the time to push it up to your home instead of keeping you on copper node. I never insinuated I was the only one that knows, you did. It seems you try to pick fights/trollbait...Such a waste...


No, you make assumptions on how people's homes are setup. Your part of the country has a lot of newer homes and being a city has the inter-structure. For example, up here in NH I have access to Cable and Fiber living in the state capital, but an hour out and ADSL/Telephone is all you have, not even cable depending on the town. Most towns have at least cable, but fiber is definitely not wide-spread up here and I see plenty of brand new houses in these areas.

So all I ask it be careful about assumptions you make because things that may be normal or standard in Texas or even your part of TX specifically may not be the case for other states.

--
Actually being on topic, it sounds like everything is the way it should be with the exception of upload being a little slow. Maybe trying it at different times of the day to see if it's traffic related? I honestly wouldn't worry about it, I have 10-11mbit up and it doesn't bother me at all having ~115mbit down. As long as latency is good, I would say you're golden.


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## Seany1212 (Sep 8, 2014)

Aquinus said:


> He just clarified that he upgraded to FTTP from DSL.



I was referring to Solaris' post.

Conroer only has FTTC, I have only seen BT only do FTTC for residential connections and I doubt they would use home hubs for business users.


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 8, 2014)

Youre living pretty close to a central office/headend. Im just expressing what ive encountered in the field and pretty much same setups. Unless if the company can afford fttp to old neighborhoods they use the existing copper to the home and run fiber up to the node. Out here only competition is comcast or dish, No Verizon FIOS out here afaik.



Aquinus said:


> He just clarified that he upgraded to FTTP from DSL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## newconroer (Sep 8, 2014)

Seany, I think you can get FFTP to the house now as in residential/recreational use.


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## newconroer (Sep 11, 2014)

My overall sync rate is 40.82 and then I have the following stats.

6. Data rate: 8333 / 41799
7. Maximum data rate: 8311 / 42030
8. Noise margin: 6.2 / 6.1
9. Line attenuation: 0.0 / 24.7
10. Signal attenuation: 0.0 / 22.4

I do know that Maximum data is the best the line can support without correction or DLM. This number changes throughout the day based on cabinet load.

I then assume the difference between max data and data is overhead loss.
But then what is the sync of 40.82 relating too? What is the real speed/sync?


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## eidairaman1 (Sep 11, 2014)

Cubr is 41.8/8.3 Mabr is 42/8.3

Depending on your internet profile part of that bandwidth goes to that. Rest goes to keeping rg in sync/tv svc/voip.


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## newconroer (Sep 11, 2014)

Eidaria I can totally understand you in any other thread, but in this one your posts read like a dyslexic person trying to write a wiki entry with one hand while holding a tarantula covered dynamite bomb with a twenty-eight second timer, that will release global nuclear war if you do not finish the post in time.

Are you saying that sync and data rate also have overhead - it's not just between max rate and data rate?


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## Steevo (Sep 11, 2014)

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fi...-sync-speeds-and-overheads-etc.html?fpart=all


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## newconroer (Sep 12, 2014)

There's lots of good stuff in that link, so thank you.

They say that your 'sync' speed is the IP profile (which I find on the BT test diagnostics page), *1.033. So for example, 40.46 IP profile * 1.033 = 41.79 (a.k.a. "Data Rate" as I've shown in a few previous posts).
Maximum Data Rate should be the highest attainable sync to cabinet based on the current SNR. Obviously there is some overhead, which is why Max Data Rate > Data Rate.

On the connection page in the router, it lists the VDSL status, showing a downstream that's at 40.82. I don't understand what this number is. Shouldn't my Data Rate match my downstream? 
Is downstream meant to be another way to say IP profile?


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