# Racing games increase likeliness of destructive driving decisions in the real world



## zekrahminator (Mar 19, 2007)

German researchers have recently conducted a study to determine the effects of games that promote risky decisions on real-world driving. These researchers took a batch of subjects (both women and men), and divided them into three groups. The first group played first person shooter games, such as Medal of Honor. The second group played more calming/family-oriented games, like Crash Bandicoot. The third group played hardcore racing games such as Need For Speed. All test subjects got to play these games on a Sony PlayStation 2 on a gigantic 72" television. The results of this experiment drew parallels between racing games that promoted violent/risky decisions in the game and violent/risky decisions in real life. First person shooters and family-oriented games did next to nothing to a subject's driving ability. However, racing games did a ton to a subject's actual driving.

Playing these video games does the following things to a person's driving: 
 Increases the accessibility of thoughts that are positively related to risk taking.
 Leads to enhanced arousal and excitement.
 Increases risk-taking behaviour in critical road traffic situations.
 While both sexes showed these behavior changes, only men actually bothered to apply what they learned racing in Need For Speed in real-world traffic situations. Granted, this experiment had one major flaw that could skewer results: subjects were only watched while driving in dangerous situations, not during regular driving. For all we know, females may apply the "enhanced arousal and excitement" to real-world driving, while males only get aroused while driving in heavy traffic.

If you'd like to read the full study, please do so here.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## C.Ash (Mar 19, 2007)

Better tell my driving instructer that i had a big dose of Need For Speed Carbon right before the lesson ;-)


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## ktr (Mar 19, 2007)

NFS is too arcade-ish, you should try Test drive unlimited, pretty nice...


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## C.Ash (Mar 19, 2007)

ktr said:


> NFS is too arcade-ish, you should try Test drive unlimited, pretty nice...



They all pale in comparison to Burnout anyway.


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## KennyT772 (Mar 19, 2007)

burnout...the best arcade racer to date..


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## RickyG512 (Mar 19, 2007)

to totaly disagree, im a good racing gamer but when it comes to real driving i drive realy safe and calm

but i think this is because my car has a MPG meter and it kills me when it drops when i drive it fast

i drive safe coz it saves money and its more greener

everytime a car over takes mee i always meet it at the next traffic lights, if i drive fast i will only be like 3 meters in front compared to if i was driving econicaly


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## zekrahminator (Mar 19, 2007)

In my opinion, if you'd like to drive economically, get a stick shift . A small list of advantages: 
You have much more control over the vehicle
The vehicle has less mass
 There's less crap making friction in the transmission, unless you have a nearly-dead clutch
 Once you learn stick, you'll be much better with automatics (you'll know exactly how to use the advantages of automatics, and then you can go right back to playing with a manual)
 There's nothing quite like accelerating from 30 to 65 as you're merging into highway traffic .


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## J0N (Mar 19, 2007)

Do most Americans drive Automatics? Manual (Stick Shift) makes driving fun. Automatic is boring, not to mention more dangerous!


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## zekrahminator (Mar 19, 2007)

I'd say the majority of Americans drive automatics, considering how many brake lights I see going down small hills (third gear is awesome), and how many people have no issue staying in place stopped on a hill at an interesection (hill hold...gotta love it). 

Remind me, what's so dangerous about driving automatic? In my opinion, it keeps you a bit safer at intersections (ever stall out in the middle of an intersection? Not fun ).


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## KennyT772 (Mar 19, 2007)

automatics are standard these days, mainly due to servicing and the ease of use. 

whats rather entertaining is that the very cheapest cars are manuals, middle range auto, and high end a stick is seen as a feature..when with geo metros its the only option!


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## C.Ash (Mar 19, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> In my opinion, if you'd like to drive economically, get a stick shift . A small list of advantages:
> You have much more control over the vehicle
> The vehicle has less mass
> There's less crap making friction in the transmission, unless you have a nearly-dead clutch
> ...



As I see it, using a stickshift is like still using a butter churn to make butter - completely un-neccesery and erartating to use, and i cant imagine anyone who still want to use it. Driving with a stickshift is simply awfull, and i thank goodness that i was born in a time where u got automatic, unlike my parents who had to use it for so many years and are extremely happy they dont have to anymore.


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## J0N (Mar 19, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> Remind me, what's so dangerous about driving automatic? In my opinion, it keeps you a bit safer at intersections (ever stall out in the middle of an intersection? Not fun ).



Because, the car keeps going unless you have the break on. Old people driving Automatics cause a lot of accidents!


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## J0N (Mar 19, 2007)

C.Ash said:


> As I see it, using a stickshift is like still using a butter churn to make butter - completely un-neccesery and erartating to use, and i cant imagine anyone who still want to use it. Driving with a stickshift is simply awfull, and i thank goodness that i was born in a time where u got automatic, unlike my parents who had to use it for so many years and are extremely happy they dont have to anymore.



In the UK, Manual probably out numbers Automatic 10 - 1. Driving manual is way more fun! You can get better performance out of the car, and it keeps your concentration levels up.


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## olstyle (Mar 19, 2007)

J0N said:


> In the UK, Manual probably out numbers Automatic 10 - 1. Driving manual is way more fun! You can get better performance out of the car, and it keeps your concentration levels up.



In Germany it´s even more. 
Who ever bought something like a BMW with an Automatic should  be shot.


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## J0N (Mar 19, 2007)

I think every European would agree with me when I say Automatics take the fun and enjoyment out of driving.


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## zekrahminator (Mar 19, 2007)

I don't mind driving either one, but I definitely prefer driving stick....I just wish the stick shift car I use had power steering . And I wish the automatic minivan wasn't so big (braking/turning/accelerating can be a challenge sometimes).... .


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## Darkrealms (Mar 19, 2007)

C.Ash said:


> As I see it, using a stickshift is like still using a butter churn to make butter - completely un-neccesery and erartating to use, and i cant imagine anyone who still want to use it. Driving with a stickshift is simply awfull, and i thank goodness that i was born in a time where u got automatic, unlike my parents who had to use it for so many years and are extremely happy they dont have to anymore.



*J0N* this is why automatics out number manuals in the US by at least 3 to 1.  It is getting harder and harder to get vehicles with manual (many models don't offer it anymore).  The US laws take a lot of the fun out of driving.  So most Americans drive point A to point B 
I drive a 4 spd manual and a 6 spd streetbike   I love manual but driving just isn't as fun in the US (I've driven in many countries).


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## Jimmy 2004 (Mar 19, 2007)

I don't see why anyone would want to drive an automatic myself. Having control over the gears is great, and if you know how to use them you don't even think about doing it, it comes naturally. Plus in an auto you get bored because there is nothing to do... and they're often a bit slower... and they use more fuel... the more things your car does for you, the more things there are that will break and render your vehicle useless for a week.

As for this survey, it used less than 200 people so not exactly the most conclusive evidence. IMO, it's a load of crap that they're saying the games make people drive faster. The link between the two is the other way around - people who enjoy driving (fast) are more likely to buy racing games, so of course you'll get this pattern. An old granny who drives under the speed limit is hardly going to get a racing game, but an 18 year old who loves driving quick is always going to have the latest NFS.

The people that do research like this analyse it in such a narrow view, hardly any of it is worth listening to any more. It's all been moulded to suit the view of the researcher.


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## ktr (Mar 19, 2007)

automatic in US due to...


easy to learn...

cheaper on the insurance

US roads (especially in the bay area) are heavy in traffic

more focus on the road, less hassle...

Automatic are getting better with new technology such as tiptronic, CVT...etc...

also manuals are getting better due to VW technology on clutch-less stick shift...which can be found on the new Audi R8 (nice car)...


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## Whilhelm (Mar 19, 2007)

This is a joke, they call need for speed a hardcore racing game. What about the driving simulatiors? Like GTR2, GTL, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, Live for Speed and others. I would really like to see them do this study with driving sims instead of arcade games and see what the results are. To do well in these games you have to apply real driving techniques and in a simulation environment you can learn from your mistakes without consequence. It just bugs me that this trys to make all racing games look bad. They need to conduct this test with arcade games and sims and I can pretty much guarentee that the sims will result in the same if not improved driving ability.


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## zekrahminator (Mar 19, 2007)

Clutchless stick takes all the fun out of it, I saw it at the Kia dealership when my dad was shopping for new cars. Basically, you have Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive....and then you can slide it into a, erm, lever-thingy (YOU tell me what it is ), and that lever-thingy has two positions: + and -. You press + when you want to go to the next gear, and - when you want to go to the previous gear. The automatic transmission keeps it in the gear specified, and makes sure clutching is taken care of as well. Really insults people that bothered to learn the clutch, but otherwise easy as an automatic to learn...makes cars a lot like the playstation versions we grew up driving .


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## Completely Bonkers (Mar 19, 2007)

Racing sims DO make you drive a bit harder... and for some petrol-heads like ourselves... the opportunity to test a sim-car by pushing it to the limit does two things:

1./ We are MORE LIKELY TO DRIVE BETTER when pushing a real-car to the limit, but
2./ We are more likely to push the car to the limit.

I think that's an undeniable fact. For non-petrolheads, who are not natural drivers, and don't have good balance, road judgement, speed awareness, etc. then they are NOT BETTER drivers at speed, i.e. Rule 1 above does not apply. Therefore if they do push their driving harder, it is most definitely more dangerous. QED.

Racing/car sims are great. After playing Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed... and loving it... I bought myself a 996.  I now drive a CL600 monster.  I'm out of pocket for high bucks... all due to a $20 game! LOL


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## Whilhelm (Mar 19, 2007)

Completely Bonkers you make a good point. 

I have found that most bad drivers are unaware of the limits of themselves and their car and they try to do things that are dangerous because they do not no any better. Sims can help you understand what cars can do in a safe environment and have made me a better driver. obviously the user must be aware of teh fact that most cars in games are representing high performance racing cars that will perform differently then your average road car. They can give you a good idea of what is going to happen and how to deal with it when you take a car past its limit. Really the best way to do it is to take your car to a track or a large open area that you can push your car and go over the limit to see what it can do. Then that knowledge can help you to get out of dangerous situations in real world driving.


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## zekrahminator (Mar 19, 2007)

J0N said:


> Because, the car keeps going unless you have the break on. Old people driving Automatics cause a lot of accidents!



Well, to be honest, most cars have fixed that. And on the cars that don't? It's called "automatic hill hold". I was EXTREMELY impressed the first time I discovered I didn't need a foot on the brake to keep the car in one spot. And then I got bored .


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## J0N (Mar 19, 2007)

In the UK we ridicule people who learn to drive in an Automatic!


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## Protius (Mar 19, 2007)

Stick ftw! so much more fun to drive


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## RickyG512 (Mar 19, 2007)

i heard u cant do a push-start or something-start with automatics coz u cant put it in 2nd gear or something like that


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## anticlutch (Mar 19, 2007)

These studies really annoy me. Like those other "studies" that have "proven" that playing games like GTA will lead to more violent behavior. It's true that games like GTA and racing simulators *might* increase the likelihood of behaving in a dangerous way, it usually does not. IMO, parents play the biggest role in both situations; if the parent does not allow the child to drive dangerously when he/she first starts to drive, then the child would be more likely to drive sanely. Likewise, if parents teach children that guns are not toys, and teach them to respect guns as well as other living things, they will be far less likely to go on a shooting rampage. 

I don't know about anyone else but I know for sure that my kids will learn to respect guns (so they won't hurt themselves), respect others (so they'll get into conflicts less often), and to drive safely.


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## Completely Bonkers (Mar 19, 2007)

@anticlutch,

while i do not disagree that GOOD PARENTING is the major factor in child development... take 90% of teenagers... and remove the parent influence... and you say these games have NO IMPACT on the kids? Nope. Cannot agree with you.

And, as we all know, in the modern family, parents and children spend ever less time together... and kids have less respect for adults (whether teachers, parents, or strangers)... which all adds up to the fact that the modern teenager (on average) is less likely to be WELL PARENTED (whatever that means!)


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## Solaris17 (Mar 20, 2007)

lol i really disagree with the title but i own a 90 integra 5 speed stick with a b18 engine id lie if i said i didnt have fun in the snow or drifted my street in the summer just because i was 4 days away from buying new tires 

i mean im all for safe driving but seriously 3rd clutch e-brake riding riding e-brake 2nd clutch out gas....ya sooooo fun. tehe


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## anticlutch (Mar 20, 2007)

@Bonkers
That's too bad then. At 17, I play many racing/violent video games and I've been driving for about a year and a half and I haven't got into an accident nor have I recieved a ticket/citation of any kind. My parents taught me to drive safely, which I do for the most part (I do speed once in a while if someone gets on my nerves.. but who doesn't?). And I'm also fortunate to have a cousin who owns quite a few guns and taught me how to shoot them (which is great fun ).

I don't mean to be racist or anything, but I think that the second part of your reply generally applies to Caucasian and black households; in Asian households (much like my own), as well as Hispanic, it tends to be very family-oriented. And although parents of all ethnicities teach their children to be respectful of adults, it, in my experience, is most visible in Asian household. Children from Korea, China, Japan, and Taiwan (there may be others as well) are taught from an early age to bow when greeting adults, to talk in a respectful manner, etc.

Do take note that my statements were generalized; they are in no way meant to be applicable to everyone. The statements are merely from what I've seen/experienced, as I am fortunate to have friends from a variety of different ethnicities. 

As a side note: some of these games have an ESRB rating for a reason. I don't get why parents buy a M rated game (for those of you who do not live in the U.S., M rated games are for people 17 and above) and give it to a 9 year old. Games like Counter-Strike should not be given to younger children for both the well being of the child, as well as the other players who have to put up with the incessant screaming and whiny voice of the child. My guess is that these types of children are the only types included in the "studies" which makes the outcome seem horrible :shadedshu


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## Wile E (Mar 20, 2007)

Solaris17 said:


> lol i really disagree with the title but i own a 90 integra 5 speed stick with a b18 engine id lie if i said i didnt have fun in the snow or drifted my street in the summer just because i was 4 days away from buying new tires
> 
> i mean im all for safe driving but seriously 3rd clutch e-brake riding riding e-brake 2nd clutch out gas....ya sooooo fun. tehe


FWD burnouts, ftw? lol


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## Completely Bonkers (Mar 20, 2007)

@anticlutch,

I have to agree with your there... about cultural differences with family. I have spent a lot of time in asia and can say there is a WORLD difference between asian and "contemporary" european caucasian family behaviour. Also within Europe there are big differences, from country to country, from class to class, from family to family, from person to person.

But, remove the positive effects of good parenting, and imagine if it didnt exist. (Perhaps an extreme, but ever more common "to some degree" in some sectors of society). What then? Remember that these observations in the research study are not based on your family. Dont take things personally. Remember that this research is trying to identify issues that are relevant to general public policy. Not every family is like yours (or mine). Not everyone has an IQ > 100. In fact, more than 50% dont. LOL.


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## hat (Mar 20, 2007)

i dont play racing games 
I do play twisted metal though


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## anticlutch (Mar 20, 2007)

That's the thing that ticks me off though. These "studies" are only used by the 'haters' in order to justify pulling great games off the shelves, or putting an absurd rating on them. Like that one case with Rockstar... a grandmother bought her grandson GTA:SA and later tried to sue Rockstar because she found out that he had applied the "Hot coffee patch" and saw animated sex scenes. If she had not given him a game that was not appropriate for his age ratings, he would not have been able to apply the patch. IMO, lawsuits where parents buy a game that is rated above what their child's age is should be thrown out immediately.


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## zekrahminator (Mar 20, 2007)

Let's not get into an argument guys. 

I improved my driving-in-the-crap-that-looks-like-snow skills...in a stick shift . 
And no you can't push-start an automatic, you need to rely on your friends to have jumper cables .


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## anticlutch (Mar 20, 2007)

Lol, there's no arguement here zek... Bonkers seems to be on my side 

I was just ranting at the general stupidity of the population, as well as the stupidity of these so called "studies". :|


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## zekrahminator (Mar 20, 2007)

Heh, I'm too lazy to read all that, I just see a bunch of @bonkers and @anticlutch, so I had to ask .


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## hat (Mar 20, 2007)

Im going to solder guns and rocket launchers on my dads truck and go blow shit up cause I play twisted metal


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## anticlutch (Mar 20, 2007)

Schweet.


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## Completely Bonkers (Mar 20, 2007)

@zak. Don't be lazy  @anti and @bonkers are debating, not arguing.  P.S. Two cultures meeting in the middle and agreeing. Pretty good stuff.


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## demonbrawn (Mar 20, 2007)

Hahaha I loved twisted metal when I had the playstation 1. Oh my friends and I would always co-op. Good times...


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## ktr (Mar 20, 2007)

anybody remember the games interstate 76 for the pc or vigilante for the console (ps1/n64)? Those were the bomb!


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## Juntao (Mar 20, 2007)

I have an automatic now with a clutchless shift. It is good in winter cause you can still start in second. The automatic is great in heavy stop start traffic. Plus the clutchless does ok when need to downshift if want to fly around someone with higher revs. I miss my manual cause it keeps me more awake mostly. That and torque is generally better. Gas mileage as well. The both have positives and negatives. The worst part of either is the monstrous payments. And as far as games influencing people yea sometimes I would like to ram in to the next person like a game but most people have enough sense to note that you can't push the reset button after. America needs an autobahn. And I also think they could do it and make everyone who wants to use it pay about 5% more for their license.  Maybe add some driver training. If anything it would be a good way to release some steam. I usually exercise for that but getting over the triple digits on the highway would do the job.  I mean whats the use in having a few hundred horsepower if can't let it out to play. And as far as parenting is concerned. I think the US has gotten lazy in that department. We do not want to impose iron will  on our kids like our parents but at the same time we are too lax in the discipline dept. Just an opinion. No need to get worked up about it.


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## ktr (Mar 20, 2007)

Juntao said:


> America needs an autobahn.



Check out Wyoming...there are massive straights with no speed limit....

Wyoming = America's autobahn...


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## demonbrawn (Mar 20, 2007)

Ah, I remember Vigilante. I didn't like it as much as Twisted Metal, though.


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## Azn Tr14dZ (Mar 20, 2007)

RickyG512 said:


> to totaly disagree, im a good racing gamer but when it comes to real driving i drive realy safe and calm
> 
> but i think this is because my car has a MPG meter and it kills me when it drops when i drive it fast
> 
> ...



But cars get more MPG when in the highway/freeway (driving faster), so how does it kill MPG?

A Nissan Pathfinder gets 16 City and 23 Highway...


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## anticlutch (Mar 20, 2007)

Azn Tr14dZ said:


> But cars get more MPG when in the highway/freeway (driving faster), so how does it kill MPG?
> 
> A Nissan Pathfinder gets 16 City and 23 Highway...



A car's engine is only efficient up to 55-60 mph... any more than that and you're wasting fuel.


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## ktr (Mar 20, 2007)

demonbrawn said:


> Ah, I remember Vigilante. I didn't like it as much as Twisted Metal, though.



i loved V8: second offense...great game. I need to find it in my collection of ps1 games, and play it on a ps1 emulator....


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## Azn Tr14dZ (Mar 20, 2007)

anticlutch said:


> A car's engine is only efficient up to 55-60 mph... any more than that and you're wasting fuel.



Guess your right...I keep forgetting that when they do those MPG tests on the highway it's only ~60 Mph.  But when driving from on state to another and no (cops) in sight...80...90...100...


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## anticlutch (Mar 20, 2007)

Azn Tr14dZ said:


> Guess your right...I keep forgetting that when they do those MPG tests on the highway it's only ~60 Mph.  But when driving from on state to another and no (cops) in sight...80...90...100...



We're all guilty of that sooner or later


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## Azn Tr14dZ (Mar 20, 2007)

Let me ask you guys, do you drive the same day and night, or do you find yourself more aware and careful during night-time driving?


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## tkpenalty (Mar 20, 2007)

honestly, drifting, burnouts, all these fads came out way before video games were realistic enough to allow these feats to be done. It is human nature for adolescents to be agressive and make bad descisions, not games. Most guys who are involved in crashes usually dont do any significant amount of gaming.

One of the major causes: Frustration, especially in australia, I want to start my Ls next year but the govenment decides we need more than 120 hours to be liable to start Ps.... now, how annoying is that? I will get my lisence when i'm god damn 22 not 18. Thats a few years wasted. Whats worse is that my car, some crappy 626 SOHC with a small turbo is something I can't drive, regardless of the lack of power, wtf? 

Now after removing the limitations on turbos... the fatality and accident rate in australia has almost doubled T_T...



Azn Tr14dZ said:


> Let me ask you guys, do you drive the same day and night, or do you find yourself more aware and careful during night-time driving?



I would drive slower at night


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## WarEagleAU (Mar 20, 2007)

Honestly, I didnt read the 35 posts that were more than a paragraph long, but I can tell you, that driving games do NOT influence my driving decisions. Simply put, I know real from fantasy. They blew alot of money researching this crap. Im sure they pocketed more than half of it


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## demonbrawn (Mar 20, 2007)

> Originally posted by tkpenalty:
> 
> honestly, drifting, burnouts, all these fads came out way before video games were realistic enough to allow these feats to be done. It is human nature for adolescents to be agressive and make bad descisions, not games. Most guys who are involved in crashes usually dont do any significant amount of gaming.
> 
> ...



tk, I think you're right in that adolescents have the innate desire to be aggressive (well, boys at least), but at the same time, it has been proven that things like games and movies will only fuel the fire. For instance, when the movie (loooong before the game) "The Warriors" came out, several movie theaters stopped showing it because after the movie let out, several fights would break out and it was just because lots of people were hyped up and had fighting on their minds. Now, how crazy is that? I think it is possible that driving games can make someone want to drive fast. Hey, even my dad says that when he takes his convertible for a spin after playing Burnout.


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## Chewy (Mar 20, 2007)

I guess it depends from person to person  One thing for sure is to be able to control your desires and not go over the limit, have some fun but be responsable and respect surounding traffic.


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## Taz100420 (Mar 20, 2007)

I def know fantasy from reality. I drive safe in my Fiero(yea you know what I mean) Its a 4-speed stick and is WAY more fun to drive than any automatic I have drove and I was a Valet for a fancy ass steakhouse in Indy. For an 84 vehicle, I drove from Indianapolis to Fremont, ohio(300ish miles) on $17 worth of gas in a 10 gallon tank with prices of $2.30/gal. When I drive at night, I have to watch for deer, deadly for me.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Mar 20, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> In my opinion, if you'd like to drive economically, get a stick shift . A small list of advantages:
> You have much more control over the vehicle
> The vehicle has less mass
> There's less crap making friction in the transmission, unless you have a nearly-dead clutch
> ...




??

you seriously can do everything in an automatic, just as a manual.

Its just different in /how/ you do it.

Manual gets finer control of when to shift, but only slightly, in comparison to a new car.

Highway acceleration is fun, but can be just as easily done in a decent automatic.

weight? eh. not terribly significant.

Problem is, you lose durability.

Manuals are simplistic in comparison to an automatic, but are much easier to cause failure with.

Easier repairs compensate for this, but a faster failure rate (can you say SYNCROS? CLUTCH?)



Normally I'd be all for a manual over an automatic, but the **new** automatics are getting pretty fun if you know how to exploit the way they work.

Old automatics just suck though.



anticlutch said:


> We're all guilty of that sooner or later



Keeping up with fellow traffic isn't technicly "speeding" and I've seen most cops passing people on interstates in these situations. (Even had it done)


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## Taz100420 (Mar 20, 2007)

My stepdads 84 F-150 had a five speed stick and never had to get a tranny rebuild just 1 clutch since he had it in 84 but my 94 GTP's auto went out a couple times which sucked because it was compact in the compartment


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## Wile E (Mar 21, 2007)

Dippyskoodlez said:


> Manuals are simplistic in comparison to an automatic, but are much easier to cause failure with.
> 
> Easier repairs compensate for this, but a faster failure rate (can you say SYNCROS? CLUTCH?)


Coming from a former mechanic, Dip. I have to disagree with you here. *Most* manuals are much more durable than an automatic (when talking the same model of car). Synchros don't wear out if you drive properly (IE: Rev matching, which any good stick driver should be doing). Sure, the clutch may wear out, but it's significantly cheaper to replace when compared to 90% of any repairs required on an automatic. The average lifespan I've seen for most automatics that I have seen in the shop was 150-200k miles, before requiring a rebuild or major repair work (there are exceptions, in both directions, of course.) Most places around here charge a minimum of $600 just in labor for repairing an auto, including removal and replacement. Average labor on clutch replacement around here for a stick is $300. Most of my clutch replacements came in between 90-120k miles. At very least, maintenance for a stick car (with a good driver, very key here) is equal to that of an auto. Cut those mileage estimates roughly in half for people that beat on or race their cars.


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## Casheti (Mar 22, 2007)

Coming from England, EVERYBODY knows over here, that if you drive an automatic you are OBVIOUSLY A GAY. Manual cars frikkin' rule! Automatics are boring. Plus you can't jump-start an automatic (or at least that's the last I heard). Then again, living in England I can't drive until I'm 17. Now that IS gay.

I've been playing Test Drive Unlimited quite a lot lately, I must say if real driving is that fun, I can't wait.

Also...just one more thing to add. Flappy paddle gear shifting is WAY cool. Well...it is if you want to look classy, in say...an Audi, or a Mercedes.  In an ordinary car like a Toyota Supra, ordinary non-flappy paddle manual is better.


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## ktr (Mar 22, 2007)

Casheti said:


> Manual cars frikkin' rule!



especially with your 1.2-1.4 litter engine!


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## J0N (Mar 22, 2007)

Casheti said:


> Coming from England, EVERYBODY knows over here, that if you drive an automatic you are OBVIOUSLY A GAY.



 Dude! You are right. You see someone driving an Automatic, and you know they can't actually drive properly!


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## Casheti (Mar 22, 2007)

Speaking of which, my mum can only drive an automatic, lol.


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## J0N (Mar 22, 2007)

Casheti said:


> OBVIOUSLY A GAY.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Mar 23, 2007)

Wile E said:


> Coming from a former mechanic, Dip. I have to disagree with you here. *Most* manuals are much more durable than an automatic (when talking the same model of car). Synchros don't wear out if you drive properly (IE: Rev matching, which any good stick driver should be doing). Sure, the clutch may wear out, but it's significantly cheaper to replace when compared to 90% of any repairs required on an automatic. The average lifespan I've seen for most automatics that I have seen in the shop was 150-200k miles, before requiring a rebuild or major repair work (there are exceptions, in both directions, of course.) Most places around here charge a minimum of $600 just in labor for repairing an auto, including removal and replacement. Average labor on clutch replacement around here for a stick is $300. Most of my clutch replacements came in between 90-120k miles. At very least, maintenance for a stick car (with a good driver, very key here) is equal to that of an auto. Cut those mileage estimates roughly in half for people that beat on or race their cars.




I'm not a mechanic, but I've personally only seen manuals need big time transmission help.

but then again, some of the people that drive them arent the brightest crayons in the box..  

But I'm just over 100k miles, and my syncro's suck.  (Got the car around 70k)

Its the fact a rebuild costs more than the car at this point.


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