# Just What Is This Mining  All About, Anyways?



## cornemuse (Sep 28, 2017)

I see lots of postings about mining & crypto $$ but cannot figure what it is all about.
It seems some cards cost more $$ for whatever reasons relating to this mining.
Can someone explain what this is all about?

(Warning, I am 70 yrs old!)

-corne-


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## RejZoR (Sep 28, 2017)

To give context, graphic cards have a processor which is exceptionally fast at crunching loads of numbers. So, crypto mining is basically a very complex formula to compute and you use graphic card to compute this. As you do work, you get virtual money for it. Because graphic cards of specific make or features are more hot for such tasks, they are harder to buy since these crypto miners buy them all to "compute" money. And since supply becomes difficult, prices of these graphic cards skyrocket.

As for mining itself, you invest into graphic card to do the compute, it also takes certain time and you have to pay electricity bills since graphic cards consume lots of power when under full load for 24/7. If money you've invested in it is lower than the output, you're making profit. As simple as that.


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## natr0n (Sep 28, 2017)

Basically you mine virtual money to buy real things.


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## cadaveca (Sep 28, 2017)

cornemuse said:


> I see lots of postings about mining & crypto $$ but cannot figure what it is all about.
> It seems some cards cost more $$ for whatever reasons relating to this mining.
> Can someone explain what this is all about?
> 
> ...


Mining is basically using SHA256 to create "signatures" of actual data that cannot be converted back to the original data. Since the information of the original data cannot be known, this makes it very secure. All of the data generated is of the same length, too, whether it be three characters, or 50.

It can be used to verify the integrity of data without knowing the actual data. That's how you can send coins anonymously...

Lots of information about this all over the place, actual a very in-depth subject that almost requires going to school to understand fully, I guess.


I'm probably not making any sense because I don't even understand it fully. 

Enjoy!


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 28, 2017)

Convert electricity into heat and "coins" (think digital fiat currency--a commodity that is traded on coin markets) by way of compute hardware.


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## hat (Sep 28, 2017)

Basically, you run a mining application on your GPU, and depending on how powerful your GPU is and the current state of the market, you get paid a certain amount of bitcoins. You can then sell those bitcoins for cash. Mining is also possible on CPUs, but you barely make anything worth mentioning without at least 8 cores. 

With two GTX 1070s, I make about $100 per month.


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## cornemuse (Sep 30, 2017)

I understand, I think, , ,

Thanks!


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## trog100 (Oct 1, 2017)

hat said:


> Basically, you run a mining application on your GPU, and depending on how powerful your GPU is and the current state of the market, you get paid a certain amount of bitcoins. You can then sell those bitcoins for cash. Mining is also possible on CPUs, but you barely make anything worth mentioning without at least 8 cores.
> 
> With two GTX 1070s, I make about $100 per month.


 
you have to take hardware depreciation costs out of this (24/7 running) and cheap electricity helps.. 

if you already have the hardware use it by all means but i aint so sure about buying new retail hardware just to mine with.. the current cost of a cheaper 1070 card in the UK is now about £400 pounds..

at $100 dollars per month its gonna take a fair while (if ever) just to get the cost of a couple of 1070 cards back..

most internet information regarding mining is a couple of months out of date.. its aint quite as profitable as it was..

but its nice to see a mining thread.. 

i would describe mining as selling your "compute" power online to anyone who wants to buy it at whatever the current market price for the said "compute" power is fetching..

the more miners there are relative to buyers the less you get for the "compute" power you are offering for sale.. what was a sellers market has rapidly turned into a buyers market..

i would say mining is still just about consumer profitable but for how long this situation remains is a total unknown.. dont bet the farm on it.. he he

trog


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## Regeneration (Oct 1, 2017)

Basically, it is about a bunch of people who try to make money online, but actually end up spending money on expensive hardware, electricity and cooling. 

If you do the math, it's nothing but a waste of time. The hype will fade in a year or two.


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## trog100 (Oct 1, 2017)

Regeneration said:


> Basically, it is about a bunch of people who try to make money online, but actually end up spending money on expensive hardware, electricity and cooling.
> 
> If you do the math, it's nothing but a waste of time. The hype will fade in a year or two.



in the winter the heat generated can be put to good use..  a mining rig does make a pretty efficient blow air heater.. at least mine does.. 

trog

ps.. about three weeks back bitcoin crashed from near $5000 dollars down to £3000.. if i had simply invested the money i have laid out in mining hardware by simply buying the equivalent value in bitcoin  i would now be showing a nice $2000 or so profit.. he he..


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## hat (Oct 1, 2017)

True but provided your shit don't break you can continue to earn well beyond that with it in the long run. Of course there's other variables that can work for or against you...


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 1, 2017)

trog100 said:


> ps.. about three weeks back bitcoin crashed from near $5000 dollars down to £3000.. if i had simply invested the money i have laid out in mining hardware by simply buying the equivalent value in bitcoin  i would now be showing a nice $2000 or so profit.. he he..


And that is where the profit comes from: betting.  There's not much to be made from computing.

When investors buy up millions of dollars worth of BTC, the price surges, they sell, then it crashes.  Rinse and repeat.  The investors run away with a lot of scratch while everyone else gets scraps.  There's little in the way of regulation so this is going to keep happening ad infinitum.


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## bug (Oct 1, 2017)

A lot of explanations here, but none very good, imho.
OP should have gone directly to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency

Back to the original question, cryptocurrency and GPUs are not related, but it just happens that GPUs are rather good at handling paralel tasks, which in turn makes them good for generating cryptocurrency (aka mining).


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## yotano211 (Oct 2, 2017)

Some people forget to mention that bitcoin is mined mostly on ASIC machines today. ASIC are specialty built circuit boards that handle the compute for bitcoins, other types of coins can not be mined on ASIC machines and only on graphics cards.


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## trog100 (Oct 2, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> And that is where the profit comes from: betting.  There's not much to be made from computing.
> 
> When investors buy up millions of dollars worth of BTC, the price surges, they sell, then it crashes.  Rinse and repeat.  The investors run away with a lot of scratch while everyone else gets scraps.  There's little in the way of regulation so this is going to keep happening ad infinitum.



which is why i intend to have a play at trading the stuff.. i predicted the $3000 bottom and would have bought some of the stuff.. at the time i did not have the means set up to buy and sell the stuff now i do..  its called "buy the dip" i do assume for at  least a while it will keep going up in between the dips.. 

with bitcoin its not just big money doing it.. someone farts in china and bitcoin starts to dip and all the other alt coins follow it.. the weak hearted start to panic sell and so do the manipulators.. the manipulators watch it going down.. guess at the bottom and buy back in at the lower price.. in some ways its very predicable..

one day of course it may drop to f-ck all and never recover..  he he..

trog


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## ShiBDiB (Oct 2, 2017)

You spend more money on electricity to print monopoly money to buy things than it would cost to just buy the things with real money.


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## jboydgolfer (Oct 2, 2017)

in case folks in need of upgrading havent noticed.....the affect of mining on the GPU market SEEMS to have lifted, or atleast temporarily it has.  on Newegg, and elsewhere, RX 580's and others are back to what i think are normal prices......this screenshot is from Today. Unless OFC Vega simply took the place of the RX580. im not Savvy in the Mining market, but i did know that prices are FAR lower than the Absurd $500+ it was a month ago


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## R-T-B (Oct 2, 2017)

ShiBDiB said:


> You spend more money on electricity to print monopoly money to buy things than it would cost to just buy the things with real money.



That's really a poor anaylsis of the recent market, you know...

Historically speaking, even if sold immediately, you rarely ever lose money to electric mining (at least in energy cheap regions)


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## cdawall (Oct 3, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> That's really a poor anaylsis of the recent market, you know...
> 
> Historically speaking, even if sold immediately, you rarely ever lose money to electric mining (at least in energy cheap regions)



I definitely haven't lost to the electricity gremlin


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## trog100 (Oct 4, 2017)

my nicehash miner has just done an update.. since the update its started to mine cryptonight using the cpu as well as my gpus..

i am not sure how this effects profits or if its a bad thing or not.. ????

trog


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## erixx (Oct 4, 2017)

Someone please post real electricity bills he pays were the bitcoins part can be appreciated (like bill from month before starting mining and after starting)
Or any other clever form to factcheck the profitability of the system! Thanks!


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## cdawall (Oct 4, 2017)

erixx said:


> Someone please post real electricity bills he pays were the bitcoins part can be appreciated (like bill from month before starting mining and after starting)
> Or any other clever form to factcheck the profitability of the system! Thanks!



I added $400 to my bill and hit $2400+ a month depending on what the currencies been worth.


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## Jetster (Oct 4, 2017)

I love the warning .    Been studying cripto currency for years I still don't fully understand


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## trog100 (Oct 4, 2017)

cdawall said:


> I added $400 to my bill and hit $2400+ a month depending on what the currencies been worth.


 
thats about 1/6th of your earnings going into the power bill.. pretty good..

roughly how many cards have you got mining.. on my current earnings. i would need 40 to see earnings like that.. and my power bill would be f-cking huge.. 

about $650 dollars  per month i recon.. but still profitable.. the snag is my dollar earnings per day have dropped by %25 to %30 over the last month.. or my bitcoin earnings have dropped  by the same amount.. in my case from 004-ish to 003.-ish per day..

i am getting roughly about a quarter of what you must be getting.. i am mining 10 cards..

i live in the UK and my leccy aint cheap.. it wont take much more of an earnings drop before i am mining for nothing.. he he..

i am doing it just to accumulate some bitcoin.. i think its gonna go up.. but from what i am seeing i should have just bought some of the bloody stuff and not bothered with mining.. 

i am painting a negative picture cos at the moment  i am seeing a negative picture.. even more if you look at the current hardware costs of getting that $2400 dollars per month.. he he..

i recon for those not already owning the hardware and in the mining game.. its kind of f-cked.. how f-cked depends how much you pay for your leccy.. 

trog


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## R-T-B (Oct 4, 2017)

erixx said:


> Someone please post real electricity bills he pays were the bitcoins part can be appreciated (like bill from month before starting mining and after starting)
> Or any other clever form to factcheck the profitability of the system! Thanks!



There's no real need to "fact check" the profitability of the system when its figures are well established.


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## erixx (Oct 4, 2017)

Don't doubt it, just haven't bothered, having this forum  At least today I learned that it's not small money that some make.


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## trog100 (Oct 4, 2017)

erixx said:


> Don't doubt it, just haven't bothered, having this forum  At least today I learned that it's not small money that some make.



it takes a big outlay to make big money.. like at todays retail hardware prices i am making maybe $600 dollars per month.. that took an outlay of £4000 UK pounds..

to make the other figure quoted $2400 per month it would take a UK retail outlay of errr.. £16000 UK pounds..

i am telling the whole truth.. some folks (maybe crypto enthusiasts) are just telling part of the truth..

as for it all being well documented.. sorry but that is total bollocks.. its pretty much all out of date.. and the figures quoted are all (optimistically) wrong or just part of the story.. .. he he..

trog


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## Jetster (Oct 4, 2017)

Didn't bitcoins just take a dive?


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 4, 2017)

Jetster said:


> Didn't bitcoins just take a dive?


the crypto economy is subject to huge variability ...  there's money being made out of all the scare mongering going on, for example JP morgans jamie dimon spouted some rubbish , it dipped , some really interseting documentories not on or about crypto PERFECTLY explain the dips , the banking system are very concerned that their way of seperating fees from us "visa et al etc" might (should )be under threat.

funny because JP morgan made paypal what it is today apparently, i did'nt know that, but that raises the hypocrisy to new levels.


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## R-T-B (Oct 4, 2017)

trog100 said:


> as for it all being well documented.. sorry but that is total bollocks..



Price, diffilculty, and electric cost should always be known.  That is all you need.  The "it's out of date" part is because people are bad at math, and so use sketchy online calculators.  That doesn't change what is known.  My statement is true.



Jetster said:


> Didn't bitcoins just take a dive?



Yeah, a minor one.  They came back nearly as fast, as is typical.  Trading at around $4,100 now.

@theoneandonlymrk it was more about China than JPMorgan.  Neither ended up mattering though.


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## yotano211 (Oct 5, 2017)

I mine and still make money so I'll continue mining what ever coin.


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## BiggieShady (Oct 5, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> Mining is basically using SHA256 to create "signatures" of actual data that cannot be converted back to the original data. Since the information of the original data cannot be known, this makes it very secure. All of the data generated is of the same length, too, whether it be three characters, or 50.
> 
> It can be used to verify the integrity of data without knowing the actual data. That's how you can send coins anonymously...
> 
> ...



So close but one essential missconception


> Mining is basically using SHA256 to create "signatures" of actual data that cannot be converted back to the original data.


Calculating hash is not computationally expensive, it's cheap to do and it's being done in many iterations down the block chain for verification purposes when initiating transactions. Conversion back, which you said isn't possible is exactly what mining is, brute force hash cracking on the gpu to add another transaction to the block chain (and get mint coin reward) - it's essentially building a verifiable transaction log in backwards fashion and using side effects of crypto hash functions to achieve non-centralism, anonymity along with transparency and control of value along with disabled possibility of creating money out of thin air. System has one huge drawback though, it's horribly energy inefficient in an exponential increasing kind of way  and a cost in electricity of adding another transaction to bitcoin chain is stupidly high and drives the value of bitcoin (along with other crypto coins that trade in btc and they behave the same way)


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## cdawall (Oct 7, 2017)

trog100 said:


> thats about 1/6th of your earnings going into the power bill.. pretty good..
> 
> roughly how many cards have you got mining.. on my current earnings. i would need 40 to see earnings like that.. and my power bill would be f-cking huge..
> 
> ...



4-6 1080Ti's 
9 1060's
5 470/570's
5 1070's
3 1080's

I had some 980Ti's going as well, but power usage was a bit high for the current market. They are all together in a rig that just sits shut off waiting for currency to skyrocket. I will probably toss them onto bitcoin gold when it hits (assuming rumors are true and it uses equihashes algo)


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 8, 2017)

cdawall said:


> 4-6 1080Ti's
> 9 1060's
> 5 470/570's
> 5 1070's
> ...


Are you saying you switched off atm ? Just surprised is all


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## cdawall (Oct 8, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Are you saying you switched off atm ? Just surprised is all



Only the maxwell based stuff


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## Super XP (Oct 9, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> the crypto economy is subject to huge variability ...  there's money being made out of all the scare mongering going on, for example JP morgans jamie dimon spouted some rubbish , it dipped , some really interseting documentories not on or about crypto PERFECTLY explain the dips , the banking system are very concerned that their way of seperating fees from us "visa et al etc" might (should )be under threat.
> 
> funny because JP morgan made paypal what it is today apparently, i did'nt know that, but that raises the hypocrisy to new levels.


Anything JP Morgan says, do the opposite. lol


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## Super XP (Oct 9, 2017)

BiggieShady said:


> So close but one essential missconception
> 
> Calculating hash is not computationally expensive, it's cheap to do and it's being done in many iterations down the block chain for verification purposes when initiating transactions. Conversion back, which you said isn't possible is exactly what mining is, brute force hash cracking on the gpu to add another transaction to the block chain (and get mint coin reward) - it's essentially building a verifiable transaction log in backwards fashion and using side effects of crypto hash functions to achieve non-centralism, anonymity along with transparency and control of value along with disabled possibility of creating money out of thin air. System has one huge drawback though, it's horribly energy inefficient in an exponential increasing kind of way  and a cost in electricity of adding another transaction to bitcoin chain is stupidly high and drives the value of bitcoin (along with other crypto coins that trade in btc and they behave the same way)



Ripple (XRP) vs. Bitcoin. Winner Ripple
XRP can also process much greater volume. Bitcoin can process up to seven transactions per second at the current limit, while XRP today can process over 1,000 transactions per second. That’s a huge difference in scalability as volume of transactions increase and more people start moving their money using digital currency.

According to a tweet on March 31 by Ripple CEO Brad Garlinghouse, XRP takes an average of 3.7 seconds to transact, while Bitcoin averages two hours. That’s on par with the maximum throughput delivered by Visa, the world’s highest volume payment processor.

Here's another quote about Ripple:
*– Powerful Technology :*
Ripple can process 70,000 transactions per second, which is huge as compared to Bitcoin. Bitcoins can handle up to 7 transactions per second. Ripple’s technology is powerful enough to replace international payment systems such as VISA while reducing the cost and allow instant transfers.
https://www.ripplecoinnews.com/ripple-xrp-price-predictions


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## R-T-B (Oct 9, 2017)

Super XP said:


> Ripple (XRP) vs. Bitcoin. Winner Ripple
> XRP can also process much greater volume. Bitcoin can process up to seven transactions per second at the current limit, while XRP today can process over 1,000 transactions per second. That’s a huge difference in scalability as volume of transactions increase and more people start moving their money using digital currency.
> 
> According to a tweet on March 31 by Ripple CEO Brad Garlinghouse, XRP takes an average of 3.7 seconds to transact, while Bitcoin averages two hours. That’s on par with the maximum throughput delivered by Visa, the world’s highest volume payment processor.
> ...



Ripple's been around a long time though and it's value has never actually been that high.  Has that changed?  Until it gets more recognition it's basically dead in the water I'm afraid.

EDIT:  NVM, it appears there's been a huge value spike.  Interesting.  I may have to invest some.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ripple/


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## Ebo (Oct 9, 2017)

To me the crypto wave is a fart in a flash light. 
Theres absolutely *NO* basis for it to exist.
Our monery system is based on the value of gold which NO vitural currency is based on, its only based on supply and demand then to fade off. For smart business men that is a golden oppertunity for launch another currency just to make money of you who falls for that which makes an artificial demand for something thats dosent exist in real life, but made only from greed.


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## R-T-B (Oct 9, 2017)

Ebo said:


> Our monery system is based on the value of gold



Umm, not since a long time, no.


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## yotano211 (Oct 9, 2017)

Ebo said:


> To me the crypto wave is a fart in a flash light.
> Theres absolutely *NO* basis for it to exist.
> Our monery system is based on the value of gold which NO vitural currency is based on, its only based on supply and demand then to fade off. For smart business men that is a golden oppertunity for launch another currency just to make money of you who falls for that which makes an artificial demand for something thats dosent exist in real life, but made only from greed.


The USD hasnt been based on gold for some time now. USD is now also based on a form of supply and demand.


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## Ebo (Oct 9, 2017)

every system of money arround the world is based on the price of gold, end of that.


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## R-T-B (Oct 9, 2017)

Ebo said:


> every system of money arround the world is based on the price of gold, end of that.



Actually, most currencies are more or less bound relative to the dollar or euro, both of which are not related to gold at all anymore and purely on supply and demand.

So yeah, end of that...  but not how you say it.  If what you said is true, gold would not vary relative to currency values.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

You may want to read that.  In particular the parts about it's end, and how Bitcoin is actually more like a gold standard than modern currencies.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 9, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> In particular the parts about it's end, and how Bitcoin is actually more like a gold standard than modern currencies.


Gold has relatively constant discovery rate where BTC gets exponentially worse over time.  Gold also has intrinsic value where BTC's only intrinsic value is whatever it cost in terms of other currencies (electricity and hardware) to get it.  Both combined, BTC is like a person on a trampoline where the traditional fiat currencies are the trampoline itself and gold is the ground on which the trampoline rests. BTC cannot substitute for gold.

Think of a world without internet (e.g. systemic cutting of undersea cables).  BTC doesn't work; fiat currencies still do.  So does gold.  Turning BTC into a tangible currency is also a non-starter (most transactions occur in the hundredths of a BTC or less).  And BTC gets dragged down the more transactions are in the network.

Fiat currencies are here to stay.  The jury is still out on cryptocurrencies.


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## Super XP (Oct 9, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Ripple's been around a long time though and it's value has never actually been that high.  Has that changed?  Until it gets more recognition it's basically dead in the water I'm afraid.
> 
> EDIT:  NVM, it appears there's been a huge value spike.  Interesting.  I may have to invest some.
> 
> https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ripple/


Here you go. 
https://www.ripplecoinnews.com/5-reasons-to-buy-ripple-xrp-coin

_-SWELL_ conference which will be held in_16-18 October at Toronto._ Ben Bernanke


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## Super XP (Oct 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Gold has relatively constant discovery rate where BTC gets exponentially worse over time.  Gold also has intrinsic value where BTC's only intrinsic value is whatever it cost in terms of other currencies (electricity and hardware) to get it.  Both combined, BTC is like a person on a trampoline where the traditional fiat currencies are the trampoline itself and gold is the ground on which the trampoline rests. BTC cannot substitute for gold.
> 
> Think of a world without internet (e.g. systemic cutting of undersea cables).  BTC doesn't work; fiat currencies still do.  So does gold.  Turning BTC into a tangible currency is also a non-starter (most transactions occur in the hundredths of a BTC or less).  And BTC gets dragged down the more transactions are in the network.
> 
> Fiat currencies are here to stay.  The jury is still out on cryptocurrencies.


I agree, and Crypto currencies are very volatile. GOLD is something you can hold. Solid. But eventually in the (near/distant) future, Digital Currencies will be the king of currencies. Paper cash will be the thing of the past. It will be a time where Governments. Won't have control. IMO of course. 

But for now Fiat, Gold and Silver are King.


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## R-T-B (Oct 9, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Gold has relatively constant discovery rate where BTC gets exponentially worse over time.



Thus far.  Wait until we deplete most of the gold in easily accesible surface soils.


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 9, 2017)

Super XP said:


> But eventually in the (near/distant) future, Digital Currencies will be the king of currencies. Paper cash will be the thing of the past.


Most "cash" is "digital" already.  Your average bank holds accounts that far exceed the value they possess in legal tender.  The legal tender is a currency unto itself that is traded with the federal reserve.  Federal reserve produces legal tender as banks demand it and they destroy more than they produce when demand for legal tender falls off.  Banks can run into a situation where someone tries to withdrawal more money than they have legal tender available for.  FDIC was (partially) created to prevent that from happening.



Super XP said:


> It will be a time where Governments. Won't have control. IMO of course.


Governments already don't have control over physical commodities like gold and silver.  They may tax the trade of them but the value ascribed to them will exist even in the absence of governance.



R-T-B said:


> Thus far.  Wait until we deplete most of the gold in easily accesible surface soils.


Doesn't really matter any more.  I don't think there's any gold standard currencies out there today.  Even the GBP is fiat now.  Gold is just too damn valuable to let it collect dust in a vault.


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## dozenfury (Oct 9, 2017)

trog100 said:


> my nicehash miner has just done an update.. since the update its started to mine cryptonight using the cpu as well as my gpus..
> 
> i am not sure how this effects profits or if its a bad thing or not.. ????
> 
> trog



Nicehash will check your cpu against current rates and will use it if it adds mining value.  It's not a bad thing since every bit helps, but it's not going to return nearly as much as your GPU.  We're talking maybe 40-50 cents a day for a newer cpu.  You can de-select to use it if you'd like.

GPU mining is still profitable for sure, but I still think we're passed the gravy days of the rush.  The time to get into it was a couple years ago for GPU mining (and years back for ASIC mining).  A person might be able to start now, but unless you already have hw that is mining capable sitting around gathering dust, it's unlikely to be able to go out today and invest money in a mining rig and break even.  Of course you never know if cryptocoin prices will rocket up again though.  But at this point so many people are doing it that the difficulty is cranking up at a high rate every month, which eats away at profits.  There are calculators out there that will help you see a graph of profit potential that will help to explain that picture in a clearer way.  Last time I ran the numbers a person buying a new card now to mine with would be lucky to ever break even.  But I started a couple years ago and have done pretty ok.


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## trog100 (Oct 10, 2017)

i had to revert back (with some difficulty) to the earlier version of nicehash to get rid of the cpu mining.. it hogged 100 % cpu power and stopped the mining cards from working properly on my 8 card mining rig..

it worked okay on my 7700K powered desktop rig only using about 50% cpu power to produce next to f-ck all.. 

sooo in my case its a 100% f-ck up.. he he..

trog


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