# Can't find ITX board for Ryzen 3000 series CPU. Recommendations?



## a5cent (Sep 7, 2019)

I need some help finding a mainboard. This is what I need:

ITX
Supports Ryzen 3000 series CPUs
2x PCIe (NVMe) M.2 sockets (doesn't downgrad the PCIe x16 slot when both M.2 sockets are in use)
1x rear panel S/PDIF
I don't necessarily need PCIe 4.0 support so I'll take any chipset (B450, X570, whatever). Looks don't matter at all.

To my astonishment I can't seem to find anything that fits these simple requirements. Can somebody help?


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 7, 2019)

I use mITX board Asus ROG strix B450-I gaming. It's well decked out and super compact. Supports ALL Ryzen chips. The only draw back is that it only has one M.2 slot. https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-B450-I-GAMING/ 

It's a badass board. That's all you need to know.


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## dyonoctis (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> I use mITX board Asus ROG strix B450-I gaming. It's well decked out and super compact. Supports ALL Ryzen chips. The only draw back is that it only has one M.2 slot. https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-B450-I-GAMING/
> 
> It's a badass board. That's all you need to know.


All asus strix itx board  got 2 M.2 slot, the second is on the back (pci-e only).
For S/PDIF  however you won't find any...(unless you want to give up on the 2nd M.2 and use Biostar).
Or you can wait for the rog crosshair impact to be released. But I doubt it'll be cheap, (and it's actually a DTX board, so it might not fit in all itx cases)


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> I need some help finding a mainboard. This is what I need:
> 
> ITX
> Supports Ryzen 3000 series CPUs
> ...



There simply is not a single mini-ITX board out there in X570, X470 or B450 that meets all of those requirements.

The ASUS boards that have two M.2 slots from the 400-series chipset generation will downgrade PCIe x16 to x8 when the rear slot is in use. And they don't have S/PDIF.

The boards that do have S/PDIF do not have two M.2 slots.

Your only bet if S/PDIF is a must is to pick another form factor, sacrifice your second M.2, or hope that the ROG Impact comes out soon and it's priced barely within the realm of reason. That's a mini-DTX board.

But if you are willing to sacrifice one of those things, I think a X570I Aorus or X570 Phantom TB3 would both be fine choices. The Gigabyte gives you both fully utilized M.2 slots and a backplate without S/PDIF, and the ASRock gives you the S/PDIF with 1 M.2 slot. Both have very well-built Vcore-side VRMs this time around (I think the Aorus has the edge with the snazzy TDA21472s).


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## IceShroom (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> I need some help finding a mainboard. This is what I need:
> 
> ITX
> Supports Ryzen 3000 series CPUs
> ...


You wont as there is no Ryzen 2 CPU. Though there is Ryzen 3/5/7/9.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 8, 2019)

IceShroom said:


> You wont as there is no Ryzen 2 CPU. Though there is Ryzen 3/5/7/9.



Maybe he means Ryzen Athlon.... wait what? 

Ryzen 3000 series Cpu is what he wants to run I believe.


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## phanbuey (Sep 8, 2019)

might want to consider bumping up to microatx for those specs.  You could still put it in a very small case...


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## Nordic (Sep 8, 2019)

AMD Matx boards suck. I say this as an owner of a x570 matx board.


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> I use mITX board Asus ROG strix B450-I gaming. It's well decked out and super compact. Supports ALL Ryzen chips. The only draw back is that it only has one M.2 slot. https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-B450-I-GAMING/
> 
> It's a badass board. That's all you need to know.



Thanks for the reply. I agree it's a great board. Unfortunately, using the second M.2 socket downgrades the PCIe x16 slot.


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## Fouquin (Sep 8, 2019)

Nordic said:


> AMD Matx boards suck. I say this as an owner of a x570 matx board.





Nordic said:


> You have made the common mistake of assuming your experience is the same as everyone elses.


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Maybe he means Ryzen Athlon.... wait what?
> 
> Ryzen 3000 series Cpu is what he wants to run I believe.


Zen 2 a.k.a Ryzen 3000 series CPU. I think my post may initially have contained some garbage so sorry for the confusion.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

Fouquin said:


> You have made the common mistake of assuming your experience is the same as everyone elses.



Actually, it's not an assumption on his part. AM4 mATX boards almost universally have garbage-tier Vcore VRM design. That's not to say it's not the norm, as mATX boards regardless of socket, chipset or generation simply tend to be the bargain basement SKUs for vendors, who subsequently put their cheapest shit on it. Whereas mini-ITX AM4 boards of B450/X470/X570 breed almost always have acceptable to outstanding power delivery, and ATX boards range from crappy to overkill^2, mATX begin at terrible and generally end at mediocre.

That being said, they will be fine if you're just trying to push a 2700X/3700X and want the feature sets outlined in the OP, as well as maybe a few extra USB ports. As long as you're not trying to break through Ryzen 3000's frequency wall or attempting to sustain a 3900X or 3950X, you'll be just fine.

If you don't specifically need ITX for purposes such as fitting into a Pelican case for travel, it's probably best to step up to mATX, as it will give you the features you can't get simultaneously on mITX. Cases such as the Cerberus are perfect for making the most of space efficiency with a micro-ATX board.


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

@dyonoctis
@tabascosauz
@phanbuey

Thank you all for your helpful replies. Unfortunately you've confirmed what I had trouble believing.

I've built my *own *compact mITX case which I'd really prefer not to give up. However, it seems to me there is no reason why this should only work using a larger mainboard. In fact, I'd argue a smaller motherboard with fewer I/O ports is exactly where this should work best. This is my thinking:

Using AM4 (24 lanes) + X570 (16 lanes) we have in total 40 PCIe lanes. 8 of those lanes can be subtracted as they are used to implement the interconnect between CPU and chipset. This leaves in total 32 PCIe lanes to do something useful with. The typical breakdown looks something like this:







On this diagram, the x570 chipset has 12 PCIe lanes to share between SATA, LAN, WiFi, USB and often a second M.2 socket. On larger mainboards (like the ROG Strix X570-E), those 12 PCIe lanes are enough to hook up all their I/O options and a second M.2 slot, which when used doesn't degrade anything else. On an ITX mainboard, with fewer I/O options, achieving that should actually be easier. That is why this makes no sense to me.

Am I missing something?


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 8, 2019)

Go big or stay home.


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Go big or stay home.


Nevaa!  

Well, I've found two ITX boards that somewhat meet my requirements:

Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac
Supermicro C9Z390-CG-IW
Both have two M.2 sockets that don't degrade the PCIe x16 slot, but force me back to intel. If for some arcane reason I can't get that from AMD, I'll likely have no choice


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## phanbuey (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> Nevaa!
> 
> Well, I've found the "Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac". It supports two M.2 sockets that don't degrade the PCIe x16 slot. If for some arcane reason I can't get that from AMD, I'll likely go back to Intel



That's a really nice board too.  Love Asrock boards.  What case are you going to be building your new monster in?

VRMs look a bit sparse though.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> Nevaa!
> 
> Well, I've found two ITX boards that somewhat meet my requirements:
> 
> ...



Just get something that meets your requirements, and don't worry about Intel vs. AMD. For practical use cases, you'll be fine with either. Yes, the 2700X is heavily discounted now that the 3000s are out, which makes it quite the steal, but if zero AM4 ITX boards can make you happy, what's the point? Forget the marketing words like 5GHz and 7nm and just focus on what you want in a board.

As for AM4 upgradeability, I'd say you'd still want to wait until Zen 3 or *at least *the waning days of Zen 2 production, when yields, quality and firmware are going to be better than they are now.

The Z390 Phantom Gaming looks okay, has what you've listed save for being AMD. The VRM looks to be a 5+2, with some really strong 60A Smart Power Stage SKUs from Fairchild on the Vcore side. Slightly smaller heatsink, but it is heatpiped to the M.2/PCH one which is in turn a bit bigger than normal. You also get 6 Type-As and 1 Type-C for 7 total rear USBs, whereas AM4 ITX always tops out at 6 as a rule.

I feel you on the case side. I just ordered a C14S for lower temps and found that it just won't fit, not only needing special 120mm fan clips but also because the placement of the B450I PGA1331 socket is too high up and won't allow the M1 top panel to fit properly. On the other hand, I just can't bring myself to part with the M1 after all this time.


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

@phanbuey
I built the case myself.

The case is a bit wider than a GPU is tall. The GPU(s) reside at the bottom, with the cooler facing downward (up to three slots wide). My main GPU is water cooled, so where the GPU blower would have been there is room to mount other things (like 3.5" HDDs or a second GPU (in addition to my main GPU, I've also got a low-end nVidia Quadro installed, which is why the PCIe x16 slot may not be degraded). The GPUs aren't slotted into the mainboard, but into PCIe slots that are mounted to the bottom-right side of the internal frame. On top the case holds a 2x140mm radiator, mounted above two 140mm fans. The mainboard is mounted vertically between the GPU and the top fans along the case's center axis (red line). A PCIe riser cable connects the GPU(s) to the mainboard. All cables are run behind the mainboard tray, where there is also room for four 2.5 drives (green lines), a pump and the reservoir. Front panel IO and power switch is in a cutout at the bottom front (I flat out stole the ncase M1 design).

The top fans pull air over the mainboard (on the left) and up between the 2.5" drives (on the right) and exhaust it through the radiator at the top.





Anyway, thanks for the help guys. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't hallucinating or missing something obvious.

@tabascosauz
I'm not too worried about upgradeability. As long as it does what I need it to do now I'm okay with buying something completely new in two or three years. For work I can use as many cores as I can get my hands on, which is why I would have preferred AMD over Intel, but the other two requirements are more important.


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## TheLostSwede (Sep 8, 2019)

How much space do you have? The Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Impact might fit and it would seem that it's close to being launched, as Asus has sent out media samples.
It's a mini-DTX board though, so it's 170x203mm (WxD), vs 170x170mm for mini-ITX.
Optical S/PDIF only though. The SSDs goes on a special raiser card.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 8, 2019)

If I didn't have to upgrade 3 rigs in my home in the last 2 years....

I'd have my hands on the Crosshair VIII Hero (wifi ed.) just because it's so awesome.... just to look at lol. 





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ROG CROSSHAIR VIII HERO(WI-FI)



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## phanbuey (Sep 8, 2019)

That's beautiful.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> @phanbuey
> I built the case myself.
> 
> The case is a bit wider than a GPU is tall. The GPU(s) reside at the bottom, with the cooler facing downward (up to three slots wide). My main GPU is water cooled, so where the cooler would have been there is room to mount other things (like 3.5" HDDs or a second GPU (in addition to my main GPU, I've also got a low-end nVidia Quadro installed, which is why the PCIe x16 slot may not be degraded). The GPUs aren't slotted into the mainboard, but into PCIe slots that are mounted to the bottom-right side of the internal frame. On top the case holds a 2x140mm radiator, mounted above two 140mm fans. The mainboard is mounted vertically between the GPU and the top fans along the case's center axis (red line). A PCIe riser cable connects the GPU(s) to the mainboard. All cables are run behind the mainboard tray, where there is also room for four 2.5 drives (green lines), a pump and the reservoir. Front panel IO and power switch is in a cutout at the bottom front (I flat out stole the ncase M1 design).
> ...



That's a very cool case. But see, having a custom layout is why I was hesitant to recommend you wait for the C7I, because I'm having trouble visualizing what the case looks like inside from a description alone, lol. It seems like there is room for a DTX board in there, then?

I don't know where you are located; I was just judging based on availability of X570 ITX here - read: complete ass. The only one available is the Aorus and even that one is usually out of stock, the TB3 showed up then disappeared, the Strix is nowhere to be found, and the Impact obviously not released yet. It may be different for you.

If having more cores is important enough, and you end up waiting for the 3950X anyways, the wait for the Impact may not be a problem. It is the only AMD board smaller than mATX to tick all your boxes.

Also, welcome to TPU!


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## londiste (Sep 8, 2019)

I've been in the same boat as OP. I did not even want SPDIF, just two M.2 NVMe ports on an ITX board.
There are ASUS Strix boards (B350/B450/X370/X470) and Gigabyte X570 I Aorus Pro Wifi. There used to be a 300-series board from ASRock but I can't find it any more and it's probably EOL.
As detailed above, Strix boards will degrade the PCI-e x16 slot to x8 when second M.2 is in use.
This only left X570 Aorus Pro, which at that time was even more expensive than it is now and chipset fan is WTF.

My computer is in Dan A4-SFX. Did not want the 2.5" drives and the associated cables in it and 2xM.2 drives has been a good solution so far.
Eventually, I gave up on AM4 for my box both due to lack of a motherboard and also due to TDP/Power (both C7 Cu and Black Ridge can cool down 65W, 70W max) but that is a different story.
I will remain on my Strix Z370-I Gaming for the foreseeable future.


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## Mussels (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> I use mITX board Asus ROG strix B450-I gaming. It's well decked out and super compact. Supports ALL Ryzen chips. The only draw back is that it only has one M.2 slot. https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-B450-I-GAMING/
> 
> It's a badass board. That's all you need to know.



I have that board. Its got two M.2s, although one halves the GPU slots bandwidth... and its got no SPDIF.
Great board i'm happy with, but does notmeet his requirements at all

I gave up and just took the GPU bandwidth loss for the 2nd slot, and use a USB soundcard with optical out


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> That's a very cool case. But see, having a custom layout is why I was hesitant to recommend you wait for the C7I, because I'm having trouble visualizing what the case looks like inside from a description alone, lol. It seems like there is room for a DTX board in there, then?
> <snipped>
> Also, welcome to TPU!



Thanks

Unfortunately, no, it's strictly ITX-only.  Otherwise the C7I would definitely be the one for me.

I don't have any pictures that clearly depict the inside layout, except for this pre-pre-pre production render. It looks nothing like this, but you can take from it the positioning of the GPU (PCIe bracket and board shown), specifically how it resides below the mainboard and doesn't plug directly into it, which is usually what most people have trouble visualizing. CPU and main GPU are water cooled, which is why I don't need any fan space above the CPU.





Where I live Aorus and Strix are available. Currently no other ITX offerings. However, I'm not under pressure to purchase this second. I was even contemplating waiting for B550 boards to be released. However, without understanding why AMD ITX mainboards can't provide two M.2 sockets without degrading the PCIe x16 slot, I have no reasons to assume the B550 boards will fare any better, so I guess I might as well go with what I can get now or "soonish" (like the Z390 offerings).


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## TheLostSwede (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> However, without understanding why AMD ITX mainboards can't provide two M.2 sockets without degrading the PCIe x16 slot, I have no reasons to assume the B550 boards will fare any better, so I guess I might as well go with what I can get now or "soonish" (like the Z390 offerings).


For X570 there's no reason for this to be the case, nor does it seem to be the case for the Gigabyte board, as there's no mention of any kind of lane sharing. One M.2 is from the CPU (not shared) and one from the chipset (not shared).
Have you considered getting a USB to S/PDIF adapter, or an HDMI to S/PDIF adapter (from your graphics card)?





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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> For X570 there's no reason for this to be the case, nor does it seem to be the case for the Gigabyte board
> <snipped>
> Have you considered getting a USB to S/PDIF adapter, or an HDMI to S/PDIF adapter


Because I wasn't even aware that existed, nope 

I have to think about this for a bit. Not sure I like the idea of another box on my desk, but I'm also not sure how much I should care compared to getting the CPU I actually want.

Yeah, I saw no reason for a downgraded PCIe x16 slot either, which is why it's strange that it's so common. Like I said, the ITX boards, with fewer IO options, is exactly where I'd most expect to see two M.2 sockets that don't downgrade anything.

I'm signing off for now. Back tomorrow. Thanks for all the ideas so far.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 8, 2019)

Mussels said:


> I have that board. Its got two M.2s, although one halves the GPU slots bandwidth... and its got no SPDIF.
> Great board i'm happy with, but does notmeet his requirements at all
> 
> I gave up and just took the GPU bandwidth loss for the 2nd slot, and use a USB soundcard with optical out



Its probably the closest to meeting ITX case fitment. Theres really not much better of a board for ITX by any other make.
Built in wifi and blue tooth frees up USB ports, as mentiin could use to fulfil one of the two things desired.
The down grade on using a 2nd M.2 wouldnt be a major problem on the PCIe slot depending on the demands.
Could even use usb m2.... But at a bandwidth loss no doubt.

Have cake and eat it too.


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## Assimilator (Sep 8, 2019)

I love how all the mITX boards have fewer internal USB headers, but also fewer rear USB ports than the ATX or mATX boards. And then still have to bifurcate the only PCIe slot to support two M.2 drives, which again the ATX and mATX boards don't need to do.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 8, 2019)

Hey, I dont engineer them, simply suggested a good board in desired form factor. Lol.


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> The down grade on using a 2nd M.2 wouldnt be a major problem on the PCIe slot depending on the demands.


As described in post #18, the PCIe x16 slot being downgraded to x8 isn't acceptable to me because that precludes me from using the second GPU in my ITX case (the single slot nVidia Quadro). This is a must have feature for me, so a downgraded slot IS a major problem. It's about a feature (can or can not), not performance (merely faster or slower).


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> As described in post #18, the PCIe x16 slot being downgraded to x8 isn't acceptable to me because that precludes me from using the second GPU in my ITX case (the single slot nVidia Quadro). This is a must have feature for me, so a downgraded slot IS a major problem. It's about a feature (can or can not), not performance (merely faster or slower).



The X570 chipsets do not suffer from such a limitation. However, the rumor is that ASMedia is coming back to make the B550 and A520 chipsets whenever those roll out (AMD takes its sweet time because its product stack still retains X470 and B450 right now, forcing us to make do with BIOS updates if we can't afford/don't want X570), and there's this whole nebulous conversation over whether B550 has the same number of PCIe 4.0 lanes (and if ASMedia is even at the point where it can provide 4.0) as X570; ergo, B550 could potentially have more of this M.2 bandwidth sharing nonsense.

AMD has been all about compromises lately. You can have your 7nm, but either your lemon of a chip literally can't hit boost speeds with safe voltage or your good chip is held back by firmware from hitting those speeds. You can have your PCIe 4.0 and overbuilt power delivery, but you must make do with a chipset fan. You can have your USB-flash/flashback/whatever they call it feature for easy BIOS updates, but if your board has the initial BIOS you can't update to 3000-compatible BIOSes without needing an old chip in order to install prerequisite chipset drivers, defeating the purpose of USB flash. You can have your passive chipset that doesn't draw Kirin-levels of power and doesn't need a fan, but you better pick a vendor who's good with BIOS updates. You can have your BIOS-update-guaranteed MAX boards, just not in mini-ITX.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> As described in post #18, the PCIe x16 slot being downgraded to x8 isn't acceptable to me because that precludes me from using the second GPU in my ITX case (the single slot nVidia Quadro). This is a must have feature for me, so a downgraded slot IS a major problem. It's about a feature (can or can not), not performance (merely faster or slower).



Well, it looks like you where saying going with Intel with less cores. 

Which system are you looking at from team blue?


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## a5cent (Sep 8, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Well, it looks like you where saying going with Intel with less cores. Which system are you looking at from team blue?





Blue:ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/acCore i7-9700Red:???Ryzen 9 3950X

-------------------



tabascosauz said:


> AMD has been all about compromises lately. You can have your 7nm, but either your lemon of a chip literally can't hit boost speeds with safe voltage or your good chip is held back by firmware from hitting those speeds. You can have your PCIe 4.0 and overbuilt power delivery, but you must make do with a chipset fan. You can have your USB-flash/flashback/whatever they call it feature for easy BIOS updates, but if your board has the initial BIOS you can't update to 3000-compatible BIOSes without needing an old chip in order to install prerequisite chipset drivers, defeating the purpose of USB flash. You can have your passive chipset that doesn't draw Kirin-levels of power and doesn't need a fan, but you better pick a vendor who's good with BIOS updates. You can have your BIOS-update-guaranteed MAX boards, just not in mini-ITX.



Yup, the more you know the more imperfections and problems you're aware of and the less appealing this all looks. It's true of all consumer electronics. By not keeping up I've enjoyed the ignorance based tech enthusiasm for a few days now, but you're very quickly destroying all that for me. Great stuff! 



TheLostSwede said:


> For X570 there's no reason for this to be the case





tabascosauz said:


> The X570 chipsets do not suffer from such a limitation.



So, either of you have any guesses as to why it's then so common for the second M.2 socket to downgrade the PCIe x16 slot to x8 on AM4 mainboards?

-------------------

So, I've decided I don't want an external box for an optical S/PDIF output. But thank your for the interesting suggestion @TheLostSwede. The reason being that my HTPC often receives hand-me-downs from my main rig and it too uses an optical S/PDIF output. In the living room I don't want a plastic box messing up the optics of the Streacom FC5 HTPC and matching amp.

So, I think these are my options:

Get the "ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac" that can do everything I need except support Ryzen CPUs (simplest and fastest solution that works now)
Wait to see if some future X570 or B550 ITX board can do what I need (maybe, maybe not, could be a complete waste of time and there is no way to know when to stop waiting)
Take all that I've learned about my case over the past few years and incorporate that into a new case which can house a DTX board for the C7I (fun but takes time and makes the case bigger)


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## tabascosauz (Sep 8, 2019)

a5cent said:


> Blue:ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/acCore i7-9700Red:???Ryzen 9 3950X
> 
> So, I think these are my options:
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how attractive option #3 is to you, but personally, I would never put that sort of expensive and exhausting effort into a case specifically with the fitment of a single [unreleased] board in mind. Maybe for a very pricey and flashy show rig, but that's it.

I was going ask why a 9700, but it does seem like the perfect value proposition on the Intel side. And in terms of "fast" in a perceptible way, keep in mind that AM4 boots a bit slower than Intel platforms. Bootable NVMe also adds a delay to whatever platform you use.

As for bandwidth sharing, a number of sources peg X570 at 16x PCIe 4.0. With a Ryzen 3000 in addition to X570, you take 4 x 4.0 lanes from the CPU and run the first M.2, and take 4 x 4.0 lanes remaining from the PCH to run the second M.2. You get the same speeds. After everything takes what it needs, you still get 8 x 4.0 lanes to run 2 x 4.0 M.2 SSDs at full speed.

X470 only has 8x PCIe 3.0. That might explain why a lot of second M.2 slots on 400-series are either 2.0 x4, 3.0 x2, or SATA-only. You take half of those lanes (4 x 3.0) as communication between AM4 and X470, and now you're left with 4 x 3.0. In order to enable other peripherals like LAN and Wifi, which (I think) take 1 lane each, they split 4 x 3.0 into 8 x 2.0 instead. After everything you're left with 4 x 2.0 / 2 x 3.0 lanes that are still usable for a M.2 drive, which is not enough to utilize a modern 3.0 x4 drive.

And so I think, in order to make their boards look like they can support 2 x 3.0x4 drives at the same time, vendors steal lanes from the CPU to get that second M.2 slot up to the first's speeds. But when you steal lanes from something, you can't just take what you need (2 x 3.0), you have to halve the 16 available lanes first, which leaves the dGPU with only 8 x 3.0. Kinda confusing.


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## phanbuey (Sep 9, 2019)

the 9900kf is on sale for the next 7 hours on the egg:








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$419  not bad.  Might get lucky and get an R0 stepping for some 5.1-5.2 Ghz OCing.  I hesitate with the HTless chips since Windows did something in Feb that caused almost all HT off scenarios to have stutter and frame pacing issues in latency sensitive games.


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## TheLostSwede (Sep 9, 2019)

You could always get something like this and mount it inside your case...





						Amazon.com : WINGONEER PCM2704 USB DAC USB Power fiber optic coaxial analog output sz-11 Raspberry Pi Raspbian RaspBMC : Camera & Photo
					

Amazon.com : WINGONEER PCM2704 USB DAC USB Power fiber optic coaxial analog output sz-11 Raspberry Pi Raspbian RaspBMC : Camera & Photo



					www.amazon.com
				




You simply keep finding reasons to not being content with the options given, when you already know there are limitations, so I'm out of this thread, as it's no point trying to make any more suggestions.


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## a5cent (Sep 10, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> You simply keep finding reasons to not being content with the options given, when you already know there are limitations, so I'm out of this thread, as it's no point trying to make any more suggestions.


Yes, the motherboard you recommended doesn't fit into my ITX case. That's not your fault. Yes, I rejected the idea of an additional box for aesthetic reasons. That's not your fault either. I take full responsibility for you having a bad day. Still, I was thankful for your feedback and for having learned about the optical S/PDIF add-on. Not sure why you're offended. I thought that was all great.



tabascosauz said:


> I'm not sure how attractive option #3 is to you, but personally, I would never put that sort of expensive and exhausting effort into a case specifically with the fitment of a single [unreleased] board in mind. Maybe for a very pricey and flashy show rig, but that's it.


Building the second generation of my case is already on my to-do list, so from my perspective it's not really an additional task. It's just NOT something I would have done right now. I'm leaning towards the Intel based solution though. It's still ITX so I don't need a bigger case. It has everything I need right on the motherboard without downgrading anything. While I really would have preferred an AMD based CPU, that's not a deal breaker as I don't view PCs as long term investments that need future proofing. If AMD can extend their lead, then eventually an AMD ITX motherboard will be released that has everything I need and I'll just get that whenever it's ready.



tabascosauz said:


> As for bandwidth sharing... <snipped>


I don't think I understood all of that. As far as I can tell it doesn't answer the question why mATX and ATX X570 boards support multiple M.2 sockets without downgrading the PCIe x16 slot, while ITX boards with the exact same components generally don't manage to support even two M.2 sockets without downgrading (with currently one exception).

I wonder if some manufacturers are just cheaping-out by eliminating one or more electrical layers on their ITX motherboards as a cost saving measure? That saves money, but reduces trace flexibility, which could explain why not all of the X570 chipset's PCIe lanes might be hooked up. That would also work fine from a markting standpoint, as the average customer will falsely conclude it's a justified result of the board being smaller.

Anyway, overall I think I'm sorted. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't completely wrong about the AMD board I'm looking for not yet existing, and you've all clarified that for me. Anything more is just bonus material at this point ;-)


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## tabascosauz (Sep 10, 2019)

@a5cent AMD's market position dictates that vendors simply cannot provide mini ITX solutions on the level of Intel. Since Ivy Bridge, Intel has been relatively efficient on power, and enjoyed the presence of a PCH with CPU-housed northbridge necessary to make ITX a reality. That's more than 7 years of experience, even discounting Sandy, Intel's first big dip into ITX.

As for AMD, FM2+ was not a mainstream desktop product, AM3+ retained a northbridge and southbridge on the board, and all of Bulldozer sucked on power. And on Ryzen, only now has AMD finally matched Intel on IPC, meaning they expect most users to be using PBO and XFR to make the most of their chips. And now instead of becoming more efficient, X570 draws double the power, so vendors are hesitant to go to the lengths to engineer an actively cooled ITX board. And as a result of the difficulty in reconciling the PCH fan with ITX, the ITX boards are seriously overengineered and seriously expensive. Add to that the unspoken rule among vendors that X570 ITX must have the fantastically beefy Vcore VRMs to support the 12- and 16-core parts, and things only cost more. And that PCH fan, while of no problem in a large case, starts to become a different acoustic story in an SFF enclosure.

None of the X570 boards in any form factor suffer from M.2 stealing lanes from the CPU. Only a select few have M.2 and secondary PCIe slots being mutually exclusive. I don't know where you read that. Only the 400-series chipsets suffer from the second M.2 syndrome, which is what I was trying to decipher in my last post.


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## a5cent (Sep 10, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> None of the X570 boards in any form factor suffer from M.2 stealing lanes from the CPU. Only a select few have M.2 and secondary PCIe slots being mutually exclusive. I don't know where you read that.



Yup, you're right. I must have started confusing 400 series and 500 series chipset specs. 

Now things make a lot more sense to me. For future reference:


NameFormfactorFeature SupportWorks for meASUS ROG Strix X570-I GamingmITX
2x M.2 socket
no mention of PCIe x16 downgrading when the second M.2 socket is in use
*no *optical S/PDIF
Only with additional S/PDIF accessory which I'd prefer not to use.GIGABYTE X570 I Aorus Pro WIFImITX
2x M.2 socket
no mention of PCIe x16 downgrading when the second M.2 socket is in use
*no *optical S/PDIF
Only with additional S/PDIF accessory which I'd prefer not to use.ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming-ITX TB3mITX
*1x* M.2 socket
has optical S/PDIF
No

Your explanation of the X470 now also makes a lot more sense. I'd add that according to Hexus and Anandtech, the usable PCIe lanes coming off the AMD 400 series chipsets are actually PCIe 2.0, not 3.0. Only the x4 PCIe lanes providing the CPU uplink are PCIe 3.0. That makes the situation even more dire than you mentioned. If the manufacturer wants to use any PCIe 3.0 lanes on a motherboard with an AMD 400 series chipset, they apparently must come from the Ryzen 2000 series CPU plugged into the AM4 socket.

While not relevant now, this also makes me somewhat optimistic that B550 will solve many of the problems you mentioned. I suspect power consumption (which seems to be the main problem) will be tamed by substituting PCIe 4.0 with PCIe 3.0, but as long as that's only on the chipset and the x4 CPU uplink remains PCIe 4.0, I'm not sure that's much of an issue, at least not yet. B550 is also more likely to find its way into a HTPC than an X570 chipset, so I could imagine those also being more likely to have optical S/PDIF outputs.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 10, 2019)

You never did mention exactly what you are using in the mITX case you've built now that already supports 2 m2's without degrading the PCIE and S/PDIF. 
I am curious what you are replacing!


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## tabascosauz (Sep 10, 2019)

a5cent said:


> While not relevant now, this also makes me somewhat optimistic that B550 will solve many of the problems you mentioned. I suspect power consumption (which seems to be the main problem) will be tamed by substituting PCIe 4.0 with PCIe 3.0, but as long as that's only on the chipset and the x4 CPU uplink remains PCIe 4.0, I'm not sure that's much of an issue, at least not yet. B550 is also more likely to find its way into a HTPC than an X570 chipset, so I could imagine those also being more likely to have optical S/PDIF outputs.



I'm not optimistic at all about B550 if the rumors are largely correct. This whole 8 x 3.0 including AM4 uplink / 8 x 2.0 usable lanes problem on X470 and X370 is of ASMedia's design, and speculation points to AMD going back to ASMedia for B550; I simply don't think AMD is capable of making a passively cooled PCH yet. Just think about it, will just cutting a few lanes from X570 magically result in a cool chipset with half the TDP that doesn't need a fan? The rumors are unsure as to whether it'll be 3.0 or 4.0 implementation (whether ASMedia is ready for 4.0), but if it's 3.0, what's the damn point of replacing B450 when the main selling point of Ryzen 3000 is PCIe 4.0? AMD's chipset design _clearly _needs time. Requiring PCH fans all the way down to low-end boards would be just insulting for AMD. Going back to ASMedia means that X570's DNA, which solved the lanes issue, may not be there.

I think it's time for you to settle Coffee Lake-R and the Phantom Gaming board. At the end of the day, Intel will still provide you a complete and finished experience that you don't have to waste time tinkering with for the next two months just to get it stable.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 10, 2019)

Chipset TDP?!
The X570 chipset is only an entire 15w and X470 and lower is 5w.
Plenty of TDP headroom passively cooled. Ideally would be best to stay under 20w though.


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## a5cent (Sep 10, 2019)

tabascosauz said:


> Just think about it, will just cutting a few lanes from X570 magically result in a cool chipset with half the TDP that doesn't need a fan?


No, but running the exact same number of lanes at half the bandwidth, that is PCIe 3.0 rather than 4.0, definately would.



tabascosauz said:


> but if it's 3.0, what's the damn point of replacing B450 when the main selling point of Ryzen 3000 is PCIe 4.0?


B450 and even X470 are NOT PCIe 3.0 chipsets. They are PCIe 2.0 chipsets. The point of B550 would be to upgrade AMD's midrange chipset offerings from pathetic PCIe 2.0 to absolutely decent PCIe 3.0. You'd still get PCIe 4.0 lanes off the Ryzen 3000 CPU.



tabascosauz said:


> I think it's time for you to settle Coffee Lake-R and the Phantom Gaming board. At the end of the day, Intel will still provide you a complete and finished experience that you don't have to waste time tinkering with for the next two months just to get it stable.


Yup, completely agree. I'll still be keeping an eye on AMD though just to see how their boards develop.



ShrimpBrime said:


> You never did mention exactly what you are using in the mITX case you've built now that already supports 2 m2's without degrading the PCIE and S/PDIF.
> I am curious what you are replacing!


I didn't realize that is what you are asking.

I currently don't have two NVMe M.2 drives. Only one. I also have one plain old 2.5" HDD and four SATA SSDs in Raid 0. These four SSDs are what I'm looking to replace with the second NVMe M.2 drive.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 10, 2019)

That's all you're trying to do?? 

Get a 2TB M2 and partition it. There now you don't need 2x M2 drives. 

Man you really over complicated the shit out of this one. lol.


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## Assimilator (Sep 10, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Chipset TDP?!
> The X570 chipset is only an entire 15w and X470 and lower is 5w.
> Plenty of TDP headroom passively cooled. Ideally would be best to stay under 20w though.



Um, do you see the difference between 5W and 15W, right? As in, the latter dissipates three times the heat, but there isn't 3x the surface area to dissipate it to, hence the need for the fan.



ShrimpBrime said:


> That's all you're trying to do??
> 
> Get a 2TB M2 and partition it. There now you don't need 2x M2 drives.
> 
> Man you really over complicated the shit out of this one. lol.



Presumably OP wants to RAID NVMe drives.


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## a5cent (Sep 10, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> That's all you're trying to do??
> 
> Get a 2TB M2 and partition it. There now you don't need 2x M2 drives.
> 
> Man you really over complicated the shit out of this one. lol.


I suspected you were fishing for an opportunity to take a cheap shot like that.

You know next to nothing about what any of this is for but you're apparently convinced 2TB will do the job? I hope you're just joking


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## londiste (Sep 10, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Get a 2TB M2 and partition it. There now you don't need 2x M2 drives.


2TB is the maximum size for M.2 drive today. Good/fast drives are 1TB max and all this is pretty expensive. I have a 1TB 960 Pro for system/software drive and 2TB 660p for games. I could utilize more space if it would be possible with reasonable cost...


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## thesmokingman (Sep 10, 2019)

Did you end up going intel?

I was confused because this board is on the frontpage while this thread is active.









						ASUS ROG Strix X570-I Gaming Motherboard Starts Selling
					

ASUS started selling its premium Mini-ITX motherboard based on the AMD X570 chipset, the Republic of Gamers (ROG) Strix X570-I Gaming. The board was announced as part of ASUS' X570 motherboard lineup back in July, but is only now reaching selves, with an MSRP of USD $220. The board features an...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




"Storage connectivity on the ASUS ROG Strix X570-I Gaming includes not one, but two M.2-2280 slots, one wired to the AM4 socket, and the other from the X570 chipset. *The two M.2 slots are stacked one on top of the other, with a metal heatspreader between them, pulling heat from the drive below to the board's heatsink network.* Four SATA 6 Gbps ports make the rest of the storage connectivity. Networking includes WiFi 6 (802.11ax) and Bluetooth 5.0 from an Intel "Cyclone Peak" AX200 card; and 1 GbE wired Ethernet pulled by an Intel i211-AT chip. The onboard audio solution features a Realtek ALC1200A CODEC with dual OPAMPs."



londiste said:


> 2TB is the maximum size for M.2 drive today. Good/fast drives are 1TB max and all this is pretty expensive. I have a 1TB 960 Pro for system/software drive and 2TB 660p for games. I could utilize more space if it would be possible with reasonable cost...



Nah, the Inland 1TB and 2TB (e12 phison) are just as fast as their over-priced comp and dirt cheap.


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## londiste (Sep 10, 2019)

That bolded statement is incorrect. M.2 is stacked on top of audio sub-PCB and the second M.2 is on the back side of the board. This is pretty much the same layout as other Strix ITX boards.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 10, 2019)

londiste said:


> That bolded statement is incorrect. M.2 is stacked on top of audio sub-PCB and the second M.2 is on the back side of the board. This is pretty much the same layout as other Strix ITX boards.



It's still two m2 drives. Oh I see, OP is on to other nitpicking issues.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 10, 2019)

a5cent said:


> I suspected you were fishing for an opportunity to take a cheap shot like that.
> 
> You know next to nothing about what any of this is for but you're apparently convinced 2TB will do the job? I hope you're just joking



I was being a complete smart azz, but also got a way better understanding of where you want to go with the hardware.

Cheers.



Assimilator said:


> Um, do you see the difference between 5W and 15W, right? As in, the latter dissipates three times the heat, but there isn't 3x the surface area to dissipate it to, hence the need for the fan.



forgot to reply to this, sorry^-

It's ok to actively cool a chipset. You act as if this is the first time it's ever been done, while actively cooling chipsets goes back as far as I care to remember.


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## Assimilator (Sep 11, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> It's ok to actively cool a chipset.



No, it's not. We haven't had active fans on chipsets since the P45 days, literally nearly a decade ago. Because we haven't needed them. Because chipsets haven't dissipated enough heat to need them. That is something that should not have been changed.


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## Nordic (Sep 11, 2019)

Sometimes you want something very specific and no one makes it. I want a modern smartphone on CDMA with a screen size between 4in and 4.3in  No one makes it.

No one makes the motherboard for the OP.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 11, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> No, it's not. We haven't had active fans on chipsets since the P45 days, literally nearly a decade ago. Because we haven't needed them. Because chipsets haven't dissipated enough heat to need them. That is something that should not have been changed.



Uhg, I don't even know where to start with a reply... It's such a silly concept, my kids say things like "no, it's not"...

Well it IS ok because the boards are being shipped and sold WITH fans. I'd look at the fan as a fail safe, people probably rarely hear the chipset fan hit full RPM.

Now let me put into perspective a little better why it IS ok to fan a heat sink. It's quite simple, you may like this!!!

So 15w converts to a whopping 51.2 BTU per hour. It's really not a lot, and probably could be passively cooled without issues.
But because of orientation (location) on the board, it's a little difficult to get air flow when there's a video card there.
Thus the fan helps to dissipate the 51.2 BTU a little faster even at it's slowest fan speed, and keeps chipset temps more than reasonable.
There's no need to run a chipset hot, so a fan does wonders. Any good overclocker/benchmarker knows to cool system components.
Since there are some people that run 3 M2s and 2-4 video cards, the Chipset might actually reach the 15w TDP.

Personally (opinion here) - I would rather purchase a board with a fan on the chipset. I like to overclock. Get that little 15w chipset running 25w with a little voltage increase and get some Mhz.

P45 days.... Let's say close enough..

**Instead of fans, in case you where not aware, AMD chipsets had massive heat-pipe coolers on the chipsets and VRMs. Other wise with a single sink, you'd likely seen fans instead.

But you are right, you don't(shoudln't?) need a fan for 15w. There's many servers out there with passive CPU heat sinks that are much higher in TDP.... (just sayin')


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## thesmokingman (Sep 11, 2019)

They have fans because PCIE 4.0 draws moar power, the end.


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## Nordic (Sep 11, 2019)

My chipset fan wasn't that loud even at full rpm, but this week it started sounding awful at full rpm. The fan is a component that is more likely to fail, and I doubt it is easy to replace. I need to open mine up and have a look.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 11, 2019)

I wonder if removing the heatsink and replacing the thermal interface material would help chipset temps. While you are replacing the fan, care to try it Nordic?


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## Nordic (Sep 11, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> I wonder if removing the heatsink and replacing the thermal interface material would help chipset temps. While you are replacing the fan, care to try it Nordic?


I am reluctant to send money on thermal pads that may or may not improve temps. I don't need to remove the heatsink to access the fan either.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 11, 2019)

I dont know if they use pads or paste on x570. It was always paste in the past. Pads on VRMs and memory.

I understand. Would have to tear the rig down. Lot of work. 
But I do know Intel cpus benefit from replacing factor TIM, thought maybe good for chipsets too, but there is a large TDP difference lol.

Also, they could use copper heatsinks instead of aluminum and a fan. But that would raise board costs too.


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## Nordic (Sep 11, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> I dont know if they use pads or paste on x570. It was always paste in the past. Pads on VRMs and memory.
> 
> I understand. Would have to tear the rig down. Lot of work.
> But I do know Intel cpus benefit from replacing factor TIM, thought maybe good for chipsets too, but there is a large TDP difference lol.
> ...


Every motherboard chipset heatsink I have pulled off had themal pads. I have only done it a handful of times on my dead motherboards. I have been keeping the heatsinks because I think they are cool.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 11, 2019)

Last one I did was a Biostar AM2(+) which had paste earlier in this year, Totally different generation though. 
Which boards did you remove the sinks from??


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## Nordic (Sep 11, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Last one I did was a Biostar AM2(+) which had paste earlier in this year, Totally different generation though.
> Which boards did you remove the sinks from??


I have no idea anymore. I have several from sandy bridge to haswell era, and one old copper one from the core2duo era.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 12, 2019)

Ok so Intel boards used pads and AMD boards used TIM. Makes sense. 
Ive been mainly on the topic of AMD socket AM4 motherboards and previous gen AMD chipsets.


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## TheLostSwede (Sep 12, 2019)

They use pads, simply because they protect the chipset die.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 12, 2019)

You can chip the silicon. Most of the time the chip will still work. Seen that a lot with socket 462 processors.


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## Nordic (Sep 12, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> They use pads, simply because they protect the chipset die.


I always thought it was because the heatsink isn't held down tightly enough on the chip to make thermal paste practical.

I do have some thermal paste that gets hard like epoxy I could try. The problem isn't the temperature but the fan sounding bad at high speeds. It only gets fast at boot.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 12, 2019)

Nordic said:


> I always thought it was because the heatsink isn't held down tightly enough on the chip to make thermal paste practical.
> 
> I do have some thermal paste that gets hard like epoxy I could try. The problem isn't the temperature but the fan sounding bad at high speeds. It only gets fast at boot.



Perhaps it's a vibration that you hear and the fan isn't necessarily going bad. Cheap little fans probably aren't balanced very well. Won't know till you dig into it a little bit.

But the statement "It only gets fast at boot" is where my point is at. The fan acts more of a fail safe.

Then the question,
Has anyone pushed a X570 chipset hard enough to raise BTU/hr (TDP) high enough for the fan to engage over 20% During usage??


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## Nordic (Sep 12, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Perhaps it's a vibration that you hear and the fan isn't necessarily going bad. Cheap little fans probably aren't balanced very well. Won't know till you dig into it a little bit.
> 
> But the statement "It only gets fast at boot" is where my point is at. The fan acts more of a fail safe.
> 
> ...


Stress testing and benchmarking will spin the fan up to about 4500rpm but not full speed.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 12, 2019)

Nordic said:


> Stress testing and benchmarking will spin the fan up to about 4500rpm but not full speed.



How many VGA and M2's are you running? Would more GPUs in use raise that temp? What about multi-card folding at home?


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## Nordic (Sep 12, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> How many VGA and M2's are you running? Would more GPUs in use raise that temp? What about multi-card folding at home?


You can see in my specs. One gpu and one M2.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 12, 2019)

I did see the specs, but never hurts to ask. 
What temp does the fan spin to 4500 rpm?


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## Chomiq (Sep 12, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> No, it's not.* We haven't had active fans on chipsets since the P45 days, literally nearly a decade ago*. Because we haven't needed them. Because chipsets haven't dissipated enough heat to need them. That is something that should not have been changed.


ORLY?








						ASUS Shows Off ROG Dominus Extreme Motherboard For Xeon W-3175X 28-Core CPU
					






					www.anandtech.com
				











						The ASUS TUF X299 Mark I Motherboard Review: TUF Refined
					






					www.anandtech.com
				











						A high-end board from Evga has three fans - HWCooling.net
					

One fan for chipset, another two for VRMSeveral years ago, small coolers with 40mm fans were quite common for chipsets instead of heatsinks. Often so noisy that modding was practically necessary. After a couple of years, this trend was fortunately defeated, but recently, rotors with blades are...




					www.hwcooling.net


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## Khonjel (Sep 12, 2019)

Chomiq said:


> ORLY?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chipset fans have assimilated so much that we don't even notice.

P.s. I know it doesn't make any sense but I tried at least.


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## TheLostSwede (Sep 12, 2019)

So here are a few reasons for the fans. 

On non-ITX boards, a fan and a simple piece of metal is cheaper than designing a heatpipe cooler.
As pointed out above, there's limited space, so a heatpipe or similar is the only way to solve the problem, unless you're willing to give up full-size cards in one of the x16 slots.
It's easier to do good thermal design with a fan, as even moving a little bit of air, is better than none.
Motherboard makers cheap out on heatsinks, especially on lower cost boards. That said, it looks like Gigabyte went cheap on most of their boards.
With a fan, you can "add" cooling capacity depending on the heat output of the chipset, simply by increasing the fan speed.
Some board makers have considered offering aftermarket passive heatsinks for their X570 boards, but they're not sure if there's a market for them and the price would be quite high, think $30 MSRP.
On ITX boards, you have super limited space, so adding fans to cool hot parts kind of makes sense, especially as here, you have even more limited airflow in the case in most instances.
Not saying it's an ideal situation, but I can't say I have noticed my chipset fan so far.
I would be interested in seeing the chipset temperature with two PCIe 4.0 drives at full tilt (both obviously connected to the chipset M.2 ports).


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## Assimilator (Sep 12, 2019)

Chomiq said:


> ORLY?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Remind me, do the majority or minority of X299 boards have fans?

I'll wait.


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## Khonjel (Sep 13, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> Remind me, do the majority or minority of X299 boards have fans?
> 
> I'll wait.


Stretching goalposts are we? Tell us if any of the X299 boards have PCIe 4.0, the sole reason AMD made the chipset itself with Zen chips instead of designed by ASUS/ASMedia.


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## Chomiq (Sep 13, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> Remind me, do the majority or minority of X299 boards have fans?
> 
> I'll wait.


Just a second ago you said that we didn't need fans on boards since the P45 days, which one is it?


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## 95Viper (Sep 13, 2019)

Have not seen OP since page 2...
A lot of off topic arguing and baiting.

Thread has gone stale.


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