# Microsoft Confirms Latest Windows 10 Update May Decrease Performance in Certain Gaming Scenarios



## Raevenlord (Mar 8, 2019)

Microsoft has confirmed that their latest Windows 10 update (KB4482887), which released on march 1st, can actually degrade graphics and mouse performance in some games. As Microsoft themselves put it, "After installing KB4482887, users may notice graphics and mouse performance degradation with desktop gaming when playing certain games (eg: Destiny 2)."

There's no word yet on a definitive listing of games that suffer this performance degradation, but Microsoft is hard at work fixing this for the next Windows release. Until then, users facing graphics and mouse performance degradation can simply uninstall the KB4482887 update. 



 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 8, 2019)

This is a rare admission from MS.


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## sam_86314 (Mar 8, 2019)

Just checked, I never got this update. Wonder if they pulled it a while ago.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 8, 2019)

first time I hear Microsoft admitting that their cumulative updates causes some performance degration for certain games like Destiny 2...


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## Manu_PT (Mar 8, 2019)

Any news? Windows7 has almost half latency than windows10. Mouse behaviour is superior on win7 translation wise (closest to 1:1) anyone serious about online gaming dont use w10. Worst OS ever for gamets.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2019)

related to Retpoline acceleration for spectre 2 Mitigation
you can keep the update and simply disable the Retpoline acceleration by turning spectre 2 migitations off via the command line

reg add "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management" /v FeatureSettingsOverride /t REG_DWORD /d 3 /f

reg add "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management" /v FeatureSettingsOverrideMask /t REG_DWORD /d 3 /f


ill say it again spectre is a non issue it impossible to mitigate it fully anyway so no sense is bothering


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## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 8, 2019)

_*cough*_ Only on Intel _*cough*_

_*edit: also affects Ryzen too apparently*_


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## Deleted member 67555 (Mar 8, 2019)

I feel like this is a patch to a patch that another patch fuckered up.
My install is 2 months old and I feel like Microsoft has seriously fucked me over!!!
I have issues with Killer network drivers...my mouse falls under browsers and then they lock up but the PC doesn't.. It turns white-ish with the not responding message.
But it plays online games just friggin fine... Until it doesn't... Sometimes in the middle of a game I'll find myself on the desktop like I was there the whole time...

Getting seriously annoyed..


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2019)

jmcslob said:


> I feel like this is a patch to a patch that another patch fuckered up.
> My install is 2 months old and I feel like Microsoft has seriously fucked me over!!!
> I have issues with Killer network drivers...my mouse falls under browsers and then they lock up but the PC doesn't.. It turns white-ish with the not responding message.
> But it plays online games just friggin fine... Until it doesn't... Sometimes in the middle of a game I'll find myself on the desktop like I was there the whole time...
> ...


your issues have nothing todo with microsoft you have a hardware problem bud


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## er557 (Mar 8, 2019)

Could be one of a multitude of problems, hard or soft, definitely may be adjusted in configuration, such as hpet timer, bios settings and so forth.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 8, 2019)

Seems like the only 'news' not coming from the forums lately are press releases.


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## jsfitz54 (Mar 8, 2019)

jmcslob said:


> I feel like this is a patch to a patch that another patch fuckered up.
> My install is 2 months old and I feel like Microsoft has seriously fucked me over!!!
> I have issues with Killer network drivers...my mouse falls under browsers and then they lock up but the PC doesn't.. It turns white-ish with the not responding message.
> But it plays online games just friggin fine... Until it doesn't... Sometimes in the middle of a game I'll find myself on the desktop like I was there the whole time...
> ...



Try this update *KB4492978* // *POST # 530*  :  https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/download-windows-10-th-rs.216164/page-22

Speed is back, anyway.


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## Athlonite (Mar 8, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> Any news? Windows7 has almost half latency than windows10. Mouse behaviour is superior on win7 translation wise (closest to 1:1) anyone serious about online gaming dont use w10. Worst OS ever for gamets.



HAHA LOL maybe for older games that only require DX11 or less but try playing a newer AAA game that requires the use of DX12 as for mouse latency I have the same latency in Win7 as I do in Win10 for my Logitech G502 so maybe look at the software you're running for your mouse


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## R-T-B (Mar 8, 2019)

ArbitraryAffection said:


> _*cough*_ Only on Intel _*cough*_



Nope.  Spectre variant 2 affects both brands.


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## EntropyZ (Mar 8, 2019)

Every so often Windows is getting more and more bloated with each update or iteration. Leave muh gaming performance alone damnit!

I remember Windows 7/8 Pro consuming around 0.7GB of RAM on my machines. Now it's almost 2GB on W10, for what? Why let some non-critical task consume CPU cycles. I don't get it. While it can be argued that having something running in the background improves responsiveness of said "apps". What if I don't ever use them?

You have proper 3rd party programs that are far more useful and use less system resources.

I sometimes wish I could cut the OS up and just keep what I need to run it. I'm sure this sounds like Linux probably. I'm not willing to deal with the lower gaming performance though.

Around the time Vista was released people were making their own versions of Windows XP for "gaming" that cut out the bloat or most likely haphazardly made registry edits that most users were completely unaware of what they do as those kinds of releases never had any proper documentation. I wonder why that isn't a thing anymore. You can make a cut-down W10, but that only goes so far.

I wonder a lot how much Windows can get faster if abstraction layers and what-not were replaced by a more efficient system. Because what it looks to me is something what is Bethesda Game Studios are doing... just piling more stuff on top of something that was purpose built, later on made into big project with new things but at the cost of efficiency.

I'm sure this sounds like another whiny post. If it does to you, move on.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2019)

EntropyZ said:


> Every so often Windows is getting more and more bloated with each update or iteration. Leave muh gaming performance alone damnit!
> 
> I remember Windows 7/8 Pro consuming around 0.7GB of RAM on my machines. Now it's almost 2GB on W10, for what? Why let some non-critical task consume CPU cycles. I don't get it. While it can be argued that having something running in the background improves responsiveness of said "apps". What if I don't ever use them?
> 
> ...


look here folks anouther person that doesn't understand how memory management works 
unused ram is wasted ram


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## EntropyZ (Mar 8, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> look here folks anouther person that doesn't understand how memory management works
> unused ram is wasted ram


It's better than starting to run into paging files on your physical drives. 3-5 years down the line even 16GB total might not be enough for some tasks. Hell I have games that run VRAM usage into the ground, only through 3rd party software I am offloading stuff into RAM, and when that runs out due to some people that don't care about memory limits. who's fault is that?


What if I need that unused RAM for something else?


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2019)

EntropyZ said:


> It's better than starting to run into paging files on your physical drives. 3-5 years down the line even 16GB total might not be enough for some tasks.


once again you don't understand how it works
if the memory is needed the processes will release it


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## EntropyZ (Mar 8, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> once again you don't understand how it works
> if the memory is needed the processes will release it


Well I assume it can't give up all of it, I've seen it at work when I was struggling with 2GB's of RAM back in the day.

I like to have something done preemptively before I run into performance issues. You say it like memory management can solve all of the problems. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't do that much, especially with applications that are a hog or just poorly optimized. So I like to think I can cut corners somewhere else.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2019)

EntropyZ said:


> Well I assume it can't give up all of it, I've seen it at work when I was struggling with 2GB's of RAM back in the day.
> 
> I like to have something done preemptively before I run into performance issues. You say it like memory management can solve all of the problems. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't do that much, especially with applications that are a hog.


its not 2001 anymore get up to speed on how modern memory management works


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## EntropyZ (Mar 8, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> its not 2001 anymore get up to speed on how modern memory management works


And where is that? Every popular source shows not that much has changed since then. I don't know where you are getting your information from. The basic systems and fallback methods seem to have little deviation on how modern versions of OSes do it.

Are you trying to tell me that OS level memory management is superior to what a user can do manually to avoid performance degradation completely? As I have run into problems all the time when maxed out as Windows memory allocator/management is struggling sometimes.

Why should I take the chance? Just cut-out the things I don't need in order to run something that I *do* need.


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## Vario (Mar 8, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> Any news? Windows7 has almost half latency than windows10. Mouse behaviour is superior on win7 translation wise (closest to 1:1) anyone serious about online gaming dont use w10. Worst OS ever for gamets.


I love my 7.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 8, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> once again you don't understand how it works
> if the memory is needed the processes will release it



Um no.  Processes don't release memory because another process requests some.  It most certainly does not work that way.  Windows may send some things to page file but processes do not.


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2019)

https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-educates-insiders-windows-10-handles-memory

10 is bounds and leaps above 7 in memory management I swear Microsoft just needs to hide all performance related metrics from people that don't know how to read them


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## moproblems99 (Mar 8, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-educates-insiders-windows-10-handles-memory



Thanks for the link but I can't read it cuz adblocker.


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## OneMoar (Mar 9, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Thanks for the link but I can't read it cuz adblocker.


use a better adblocker


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## moproblems99 (Mar 9, 2019)

Or just not read it.  Enjoy the Friday night.


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## OneMoar (Mar 9, 2019)

more in depth
https://www.tweakhound.com/2015/08/20/windows-10-memory-compression/


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## EntropyZ (Mar 9, 2019)

> Thanks for the link but I can't read it cuz adblocker.



I found this funny for some reason.

Anyway even with all those methods what if the software is constantly loading new data, the MM combined with the hardware I would be using isn't fast enough to adapt. Resulting in performance drops. It's not some magic wand for the software that just plain works like crap though, so I have to get some resources from somewhere don't I?

I was simply stating that the user needs to get their hands dirty in order to get something working as close as intended. Which should be fair game.

If I look at perfmon, while running an application that also depends on loads of APIs. Trust me, it isn't pretty.

There are things Windows simply *can't* do. That is why it would be awesome if I could just modify it to my own needs to get the most out of it. But I can't because these updates keep breaking something or locking down the things you could do before, for your own good. Or just adding something that just boggles the mind of a user, like why?

The insider program is a nice step, but it is no substitute for open-source. Getting off-track here. I'm just dreaming about things that won't happen as I try to claim what should be in my control, but it isn't.

TL;DR: EZ solution pay for better hardware. Which will still be bogged down by software. Good game messing with the consumer, intentional or not.

Guys where do you direct your hatred, so it may become productive? I need a better outlet. I have more respect for you than this... It's like I need a filter for negative posts as I care too much, cause' all I see is consumers getting rear-ended too much in this decade. This actually kept me awake, when I was about to drop from sleep deprivation.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Mar 9, 2019)

This also started after the update...I suppose my 1070ti could be about to die..
No OC's latest drivers...etc...ever since I got 1809 its been one issue after another.


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## Basard (Mar 9, 2019)

Amazing how performance always decreases.....  You'd think they would be striving for the opposite.


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## OneMoar (Mar 9, 2019)

to the benchmarks boy wonder and yes your 1070TI is dying


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## trparky (Mar 9, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> unused ram is wasted ram


Yep, there's a lot of stuff that's stored in memory including disk cache. If you can keep things in RAM, important bits of data and/or potential things that you, the user, might want in RAM instead of having to go back to the much slower hard disk drive or SSD (though an SSD is faster than a hard drive it's still orders of magnitude slower than DRAM). With that being said, Windows will learn over time your usage pattern and keep certain bits of data in disk cache which of course leads to more system RAM usage but it leads to a more responsive system if and when you need that data.


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## Zubasa (Mar 9, 2019)

Let me guess, they fucked up the DPC Latency AGAIN?


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## R0H1T (Mar 9, 2019)

ArbitraryAffection said:


> _*cough*_ Only on Intel _*cough*_


Yes mostly on Intel, the performance hit can be massive in fact ~ https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux50-spectre-meltdown&num=1

Though there will be some optimizations but the fact remains - this is still a massive headache.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Nope.  Spectre variant 2 affects both brands.


Yes you are correct but this update only reduces performance in Intel architecture.

*edit: also affects Ryzen too apparently*


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## R-T-B (Mar 9, 2019)

ArbitraryAffection said:


> Yes you are correct but this update only reduces performance in Intel architecture.



Where is that stated?


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## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Where is that stated?


Okay I was misinformed. apparently this update hurts Zen too, as i have jsut read in the reddit page. I read somewhere else it was Intel only cuzi  assumed it was caused by retpoline, which i also learned is not needed on Zen architecture

will edit my post so people aren't misinformed by it


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 9, 2019)

seeing folks blaming MS is nothing new when the end user is also partially responsible for leaving everything to auto without bothering changing the settings in their OS.


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## Athlonite (Mar 9, 2019)

I really don't see the point of installing these mitigtion patchs has anyone here or heard of anyone actually been affected by spectre


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## HTC (Mar 9, 2019)

To my understanding, all of these exploits discovered since early last year work because of speculative execution and Intel, AMD and ARM CPUs have speculative execution, with different implementations. This is why Meltdown and Spoiler affect only Intel CPUs but Spectre affects all manufacturers.

Until manufacturers figure out a way to remove speculative execution from their (next gen) CPUs, we're stuck with software mitigations and, in the case of Spoiler, (apparently) that isn't an option. The same is true for existing CPUs. Mitigation measures have a performance impact which varies greatly, depending on which exploit it addresses but the cumulative effect of these mitigations is very noticeable.


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## Manu_PT (Mar 9, 2019)

Athlonite said:


> HAHA LOL maybe for older games that only require DX11 or less but try playing a newer AAA game that requires the use of DX12 as for mouse latency I have the same latency in Win7 as I do in Win10 for my Logitech G502 so maybe look at the software you're running for your mouse



Is called DPC latency and it is objectively lower on Windows 7. Has nothing to do with software. Is the OS itself. And I dont care about DX12. 99% of the games have DX11 compability. Also Windows 10 is crap for audio production do to its latency.

Windows 10 is only used by a lot of people because microsoft pushed hard on those auto updates. The OS itself is a mess and doesnt take the best from your hardware. 1809 October update is even worse.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 9, 2019)

at least one can uninstall the update... and not to go thru the lengths of doing a clean install.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 9, 2019)

HTC said:


> To my understanding, all of these exploits discovered since early last year work because of speculative execution and Intel, AMD and ARM CPUs have speculative execution, with different implementations. This is why Meltdown and Spoiler affect only Intel CPUs but Spectre affects all manufacturers.
> 
> Until manufacturers figure out a way to remove speculative execution from their (next gen) CPUs, we're stuck with software mitigations and, in the case of Spoiler, (apparently) that isn't an option. The same is true for existing CPUs. Mitigation measures have a performance impact which varies greatly, depending on which exploit it addresses but the cumulative effect of these mitigations is very noticeable.


Spec - ex isn't going anywhere lol. Unless we make a breakthrough in process technology that leads to _massive_ increases in clock rates, like 10GHz+. Possible actually with graphene or something. That would allow an in-order CPU without speculative execution to achieve decent performance compared to currrent designs. BUT now imagine the same CPU _with _speculative execution. I guess the issue of utilisation in the core engine gets worse with wider cores. So many processing components to occupy, otherwise they sit idle and wasted, so the engine has to start guessing what might be needed....Otherwise we'll be waiting for organic computers I think. Our brains are very very powerful and efficient. We can learn many things from nature even with regards to information processing. This will obviously requier massive changes to the entire principle of computing though~



Manu_PT said:


> Is called DPC latency and it is objectively lower on Windows 7. Has nothing to do with software. Is the OS itself. And I dont care about DX12. 99% of the games have DX11 compability. Also Windows 10 is crap for audio production do to its latency.
> 
> Windows 10 is only used by a lot of people because microsoft pushed hard on those auto updates. The OS itself is a mess and doesnt take the best from your hardware. 1809 October update is even worse.


never noticed any performance issues going from 7 to 8.1 to 10. ~shrug~


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## P4-630 (Mar 9, 2019)

Vario said:


> I love my 7.






https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsforbusiness/end-of-windows-7-support


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## R0H1T (Mar 9, 2019)

Pretty sure they'll do an XP with super *critical updates*, though whether that reaches the masses in a timely manner is another matter altogether.


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## HTC (Mar 9, 2019)

ArbitraryAffection said:


> Spec - ex isn't going anywhere lol. Unless we make a breakthrough in process technology that leads to _massive_ increases in clock rates, like 10GHz+. Possible actually with graphene or something. That would allow an in-order CPU without speculative execution to achieve decent performance compared to currrent designs. BUT now imagine the same CPU _with _speculative execution. I guess the issue of utilisation in the core engine gets worse with wider cores. So many processing components to occupy, otherwise they sit idle and wasted, so the engine has to start guessing what might be needed....Otherwise we'll be waiting for organic computers I think. Our brains are very very powerful and efficient. We can learn many things from nature even with regards to information processing. This will obviously requier massive changes to the entire principle of computing though~



Outright removal of spec - ex would mean a very serious performance hit because spec - ex is that important in today's CPUs. CPU manufacturers have to come up with a way to gain today's CPU performance without spec - ex: not an easy feat.

Until then, we're stuck with software mitigations, with the associated performance penalties they entail. Since it appears spec - ex has more holes than Swiss cheese, there may be a point when CPU manufacturers are forced to remove it (disabled in BIOS???), even if they haven't succeeded in creating comparable performance CPUs without spec - ex.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 9, 2019)

HTC said:


> Outright removal of spec - ex would mean a very serious performance hit because spec - ex is that important in today's CPUs. CPU manufacturers have to come up with a way to gain today's CPU performance without spec - ex: not an easy feat.
> 
> Until then, we're stuck with software mitigations, with the associated performance penalties they entail. Since it appears spec - ex has more holes than Swiss cheese, there may be a point when CPU manufacturers are forced to remove it (disabled in BIOS???), even if they haven't succeeded in creating comparable performance CPUs without spec - ex.


You're right but clock rates in excess of 10 ghz would mitigate those reductions in instructions per _second _ at a huge cost of instructions per clock. At least i think so. Thoughts?


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## Kovoet (Mar 9, 2019)

And yet they won't stop the auto updates.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 9, 2019)

So much sh** again in the posts.

It degrades Skylake and up arch. Older ones should be fine.


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## Nxodus (Mar 9, 2019)

Great, I have the update installed. But didn't notice lag in Far Cry New Dawn


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## Basard (Mar 9, 2019)

The best part about Windows Update now is how it always starts at the most inconvenient times.  I especially like how you have almost zero control over it.  Also how it causes you to curse your ISP, or your games' servers for lag--until you remember how the convenient new method of updating never interrupts anything your doing.  Because "Ask me when to download and install updates" was so much of a hassle--I'm so glad they got rid of that nuisance of a feature.  I love Microsoft.


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## Nxodus (Mar 9, 2019)

Basard said:


> The best part about Windows Update now is how it always starts at the most inconvenient times.  I especially like how you have almost zero control over it.  Also how it causes you to curse your ISP, or your games' servers for lag--until you remember how the convenient new method of updating never interrupts anything your doing.  Because "Ask me when to download and install updates" was so much of a hassle--I'm so glad they got rid of that nuisance of a feature.  I love Microsoft.



no control over it? I don't know about other versions, but I can pause updates anytime in Win 10 Enterprise for a span of 1 month.
After every patch Tuesday I check my beloved Win specialists https://www.askwoody.com/ and if it's MS DEFCON 4 or higher I install them manually (by un-pausing updates)

Besides this, you can also set up Windows to install updates outside of active hours so I really don't  get people complaining about Win updates


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 9, 2019)

I don't when really it sat off... but you can.


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## Miguel2013 (Mar 9, 2019)

it only affects gaming and only same games and microsoft is working on an update for this release not for the next windows release as poster said, I'm sure a fix will come out in 2 weeks. Gaming is a waste of time anyway, they're all programmed and coded etc and make u do certain mandatory tasks to get to a certain level is not free thinking is not natural is sketched. and some games like winning eleven 8 for pc which to me was the best soccer game ever still had a conspiracy to it, it will drop my skills performance for players in my team and no matter how good I was I lost matches that were rigged for fraud and my other friend on peslauncher said the same thing when I pointed this. In general don't play games they're lying to u and focus on learning science and math make programs that aren't rigged do 3d stuff like i do.

I'm just saying these games are programed to make u lose but then u think u can win by trying again and again and after a while u still can't win, then you become exausted and irritated, now is very easy to become adicted at this point specialy if u have low selfsteen, so stop playing games like halo or hmm what's the other one? fable jaja you're just getting sick in the head!


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 9, 2019)

Nxodus said:


> no control over it? I don't know about other versions, but I can pause updates anytime in Win 10 Enterprise for a span of 1 month.
> After every patch Tuesday I check my beloved Win specialists https://www.askwoody.com/ and if it's MS DEFCON 4 or higher I install them manually (by un-pausing updates)


You’ve got Enterprise, I’ve got Pro, but consider this: most users have plain Jane home version, which literally gives zero control over updates.  I notice this between my rig on Pro, where I delay feature updates nearly 9 months and regular updates 10 days.  My HTPC uses W10 Home, and literally updates when it wants.


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## INSTG8R (Mar 9, 2019)

Nxodus said:


> Great, I have the update installed. But didn't notice lag in Far Cry New Dawn


Ditto played some this morning. Ran the same as it always has.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 9, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> So much sh** again in the posts.
> 
> It degrades Skylake and up arch. Older ones should be fine.


that doesn't make sense to me, i thought Skylake had better performance with fixes than older archs? or are the older archs just not as protected?


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## Nxodus (Mar 9, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> You’ve got Enterprise, I’ve got Pro, but consider this: most users have plain Jane home version, which literally gives zero control over updates.  I notice this between my rig on Pro, where I delay feature updates nearly 9 months and regular updates 10 days.  My HTPC uses W10 Home, and literally updates when it wants.



I've been avoiding home versions ever since I learned about the missing group policy editor feature the hard way in Windows 7 If you like to tweak around in your OS it's always best to install ultimate or enterprise in this case. The update system is something I specifically researched before picking a Win 10 version.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 9, 2019)

ArbitraryAffection said:


> that doesn't make sense to me, i thought Skylake had better performance with fixes than older archs? or are the older archs just not as protected?


I haven’t followed the fixes closely in awhile, but IIRC Haswell and below fixes are sporadic and don’t affect as much performance.



Nxodus said:


> I've been avoiding home versions ever since I learned about the missing group policy editor feature the hard way in Windows 7 If you like to tweak around in your OS it's always best to install ultimate or enterprise in this case. The update system is something I specifically researched before picking a Win 10 version.


And that’s why I went with Pro on my own rig.  Most users though, are not of the same thinking.  They either buy the cheapest version or upgraded from the home version they had of W7 or 8.1.


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## Readlight (Mar 9, 2019)

Every day need to sufer from slow os and bad made, slow game for my pc.


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## Mayclore (Mar 9, 2019)

I don't think I've noticed anything untoward happening in my games on this patch, although I have noticed that the most recent 19H1 builds feel snappier overall. Hopefully that carries over to the full release version.


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## Ferrum Master (Mar 9, 2019)

Mayclore said:


> I don't think I've noticed anything untoward happening in my games on this patch, although I have noticed that the most recent 19H1 builds feel snappier overall. Hopefully that carries over to the full release version.



Retpoline is baked in the kernel for those, that's why.

Also the GPU driver is not compiled with retpoline aware compiler. Althou there is WDDM2.6 421.65 for nvidia, that one could be, and everything should be fine.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 9, 2019)

I love how folks here bashing the air when it's their own fault for upgrading to Windows 10 Home because it's "free", instead of "I have no choice" BS. Since there are cheap legit keys for the Pro editions, might as well go get it while you can & then defer all those updates, tweak the OS & turn off all the settings to get back some control from Microsoft.


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## DailymotionGamer (Mar 9, 2019)

That's why i use windows 7 64bit. no problems


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## trparky (Mar 9, 2019)

u2konline said:


> That's why i use windows 7 64bit. no problems


But again, Windows 7 support is ending in a year. What will you do then?


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## OneMoar (Mar 9, 2019)

people are missing the point that retpoline accually substantially improves performance in workloads where the spectre fixes hurt performance










whats going on is some apps that are incorrectly written rely on speculative execution and are taking a hit when retpoline comes along and stuffs a big old infinate loop in the pipeline

https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/7625886


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## Vayra86 (Mar 9, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> I don't when really it sat off... but you can.
> 
> View attachment 118333



This. People grossly overstate the evil Microsoft ways, they listen, they respond, and they usually implement things in a pretty smart way.

This topic... case in point. 90% assumptions somehow turn into facts over here, that are complety unsubstantiated 'I believe, I assume, it feels like'. In the meantime, I don't notice a god damn thing... even in competitive online play.



trparky said:


> But again, Windows 7 support is ending in a year. What will you do then?



Exactly. This is nothing other than the Windows XP veterans who keep using an old OS because they're scared of change. But still cling to Windows, for some weird reason.


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## DailymotionGamer (Mar 9, 2019)

trparky said:


> But again, Windows 7 support is ending in a year. What will you do then?


Continue to use the OS.


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## Vario (Mar 9, 2019)

trparky said:


> But again, Windows 7 support is ending in a year. What will you do then?


8.1


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## trparky (Mar 9, 2019)

u2konline said:


> Continue to use the OS.


From a security point of view... *NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!*


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## TheinsanegamerN (Mar 9, 2019)

trparky said:


> From a security point of view... *NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!*


From a security point of view, using computers is  *NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!*

Besides, in the age of adblockers, pi-holes, and constantly updated browsers, infections are becoming far rarer of a problem then in years past. OS updates are very important, yes, but by blocking ad networks the primary attack vector for computer viruses has long been cut off.


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## trparky (Mar 9, 2019)

Until of course something like what happened with Google Chrome where they found a way to escape the sandbox and exploit the kernel.


----------



## ArbitraryAffection (Mar 9, 2019)

u2konline said:


> That's why i use windows 7 64bit. no problems


no DX12 is a huge killer for me. 7 was a great os but it;s time to move on. I was extremely autistic when 8 came out, swore by 7. then 8,1 cam out and i switched. I didn't favour it but it was a decent os. when 10 came out i never looked back. IMO 10 is better in every way (except making a decent network bridge lmao). Old technology needs to die so technology can move on. Some people still using XP today lol.. I got my w10 Pro key for a tenner on amazon btw


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## OneMoar (Mar 9, 2019)

I firewall windows 7 machines into the ground at work 
if you continue to use windows 7 now you are a idiot and should be banned from the internet you are a danger to your self and everybody else


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## Vayra86 (Mar 9, 2019)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> From a security point of view, using computers is  *NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!*
> 
> Besides, in the age of adblockers, pi-holes, and constantly updated browsers, infections are becoming far rarer of a problem then in years past. OS updates are very important, yes, but by blocking ad networks the primary attack vector for computer viruses has long been cut off.



Compare this to real life. It also contains risks, but we do our best to mitigate them as much as we feel is necessary and possible. That mitigating also comes from knowledge and experience about the world around us. Computer security is no different, it evolves and we usually do a pretty decent job at mitigating most of the nasty stuff. Willingly using outdated OS and connecting to the internet is like driving a car without safety belts and airbags - you may crash, and if you do, you get the full effect of it. It all depends on the driver and the analogy even goes further - your safe driving affects everyone else on the road.



OneMoar said:


> I firewall windows 7 machines into the ground at work
> if you continue to use windows 7 now you are a idiot and should be banned from the internet you are a danger to your self and everybody else



Depends on the setting you use it in, but yes, generally speaking...


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## TheinsanegamerN (Mar 9, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> I firewall windows 7 machines into the ground at work
> if you continue to use windows 7 now you are a idiot and should be banned from the internet you are a danger to your self and everybody else


The only idiot here is you. Windows 7 is still currently supported, and is no more vulnerable then windows 10. Until april of 2020, windows 7 is no more unsecure then more modern versions of Windows. When given MSE antivirus, it is running the same defender profiles as windows 10, it is running the same version of chrome, and is receiving the same security updates.

Do you care to explain how windows 7, receiving the same security updates and running the same browsers, is somehow more dangerous to run then 8, 8.1, or 10?


trparky said:


> Until of course something like what happened with Google Chrome where they found a way to escape the sandbox and exploit the kernel.


That would also be able to affect currently supported versions of windows, not just older versions. What is your point?



Vayra86 said:


> Compare this to real life. It also contains risks, but we do our best to mitigate them as much as we feel is necessary and possible. That mitigating also comes from knowledge and experience about the world around us. Computer security is no different, it evolves and we usually do a pretty decent job at mitigating most of the nasty stuff. Willingly using outdated OS and connecting to the internet is like driving a car without safety belts and airbags - you may crash, and if you do, you get the full effect of it. It all depends on the driver and the analogy even goes further - your safe driving affects everyone else on the road.


Your analog doesn't really work, because I dont see people preaching the end of modern civilization and labeling drivers of classic cars idiots and morons over airbags.



ArbitraryAffection said:


> no DX12 is a huge killer for me. 7 was a great os but it;s time to move on. I was extremely autistic when 8 came out, swore by 7. then 8,1 cam out and i switched. I didn't favour it but it was a decent os. when 10 came out i never looked back. IMO 10 is better in every way (except making a decent network bridge lmao). Old technology needs to die so technology can move on. Some people still using XP today lol.. I got my w10 Pro key for a tenner on amazon btw


Yeah, all those DX12 exclusive titles like..........um.....

Oh, hey, BF5 has it, although it doesnt perform noticeably different or look better then the DX11 version. Oh! But you can use DLSS with DX12! Or just out a dirty glass in front of your face, same effect really.

totally worth a completely broken update system and quality control rivaling 70s american cars.../s


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## OneMoar (Mar 10, 2019)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> The only idiot here is you. Windows 7 is still currently supported, and is no more vulnerable then windows 10. Until april of 2020, windows 7 is no more unsecure then more modern versions of Windows. When given MSE antivirus, it is running the same defender profiles as windows 10, it is running the same version of chrome, and is receiving the same security updates.
> 
> Do you care to explain how windows 7, receiving the same security updates and running the same browsers, is somehow more dangerous to run then 8, 8.1, or 10?
> 
> ...


page 9
https://www-cdn.webroot.com/6515/2168/8585/Webroot_2018_Threat_Report_US.pdf
thx for playing good luck being a Luddite


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## TheinsanegamerN (Mar 10, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> page 9
> https://www-cdn.webroot.com/6515/2168/8585/Webroot_2018_Threat_Report_US.pdf
> thx for playing good luck being a Luddite


How many of those 7 users didnt have antivirus installed, or worse, were using norton or mcafee (or worse, is webroot saying their product is less capable on 7 then 10, which would be a laughable thing to report)? And per the report, windows 7 still has a majority of users compared to windows 10, so no shit there will be more 7 infections. Per my question, how is 7, up to date with MSE, any less secure then 10, you have not answered this question. This report doesnt mention AV used, nor how firewalls differ between companies. There are so many variables in this report it is laughable.

We still run 7 on the majority of our computers at work. We have a basic firewall and use Webroot. Guess what? Our machines are fine. They are not infected up the arse. There is no abnormal network traffic on our network, detected be either us or our ISP. None of our machines, scanned at random with different tools, have come back infected. Until security patches stop in april of 2020, there is nothing wrong with 7 compared to 10.


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## trparky (Mar 10, 2019)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> That would also be able to affect currently supported versions of windows, not just older versions. What is your point?


When Windows 7 is left unsupported in a year those exploits will be patched on Windows 10 but not on Windows 7. So when that happens then bad things will happen.


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## OneMoar (Mar 10, 2019)

the last time people refused to upgrade there os we where blessed with windows xp systems
think about that


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## Readlight (Mar 10, 2019)

On win 7 motherboard i can instal 4 Windows os if i want. Yust dont open, instal apps who dont need.


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## DailymotionGamer (Mar 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> From a security point of view... *NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!*


I don't have security on my computer right now, infact i never do and i never have any problems. I didn't think anyone use any anti-virus programs anymore lol, that's so 90ish/2000ish.


----------



## Melvis (Mar 10, 2019)

Well at least Microshaft told us about this issue for once instead of finding it out later, good on them for that.

I dont have to worry about that as most of my Computers are running faster, snappier, less F ed up Windows 7.

Also who in the heck uses Windows firewall? its as good as Swiss cheese, full of holes,  install a real Firewall and your good.

Will MS really stop support of Windows 7 next yr? I dont think they will because its still has a massive amount of people world wide using it, I can see them carrying on support for a little longer and with the amount of Issues W10 has I still get people asking for Windows 7 Installs over 10 and if clients get to the point they dont have a choice they will move to Apple.

MS has alot of work to do to convince millions of users that there new OS is as stable and good to use as Windows 7 is, once they do that then its all good but I have noticed with two new computers I just did for clients that 1. Office 2019 only supports W10 and 2. parts of Adobe photoshop suite doesnt work on 7 so the choice for these two clients was very limited and both didnt want W10.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 10, 2019)

u2konline said:


> I didn't think anyone use any anti-virus programs anymore lol, that's so 90ish/2000ish.



Actually, you would be quite wrong.  Many, many millions use them, and the name may be confusing you.  They call themselves AV still, but really most of them now are complete anti-malware solutions.


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## OneMoar (Mar 10, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Actually, you would be quite wrong.  Many, many millions use them, and the name may be confusing you.  They call themselves AV still, but really most of them now are complete anti-malware solutions.


quiet wrong about many things I am afraid



Melvis said:


> Well at least Microshaft told us about this issue for once instead of finding it out later, good on them for that.
> 
> I dont have to worry about that as most of my Computers are running faster, snappier, less F ed up Windows 7.
> 
> ...



its your job as a MSP to make them understand, if you don't believe in the product you are recommending then neither will the client

I am sure somebody will chime in with a edge case or some other reason but

there is absolutely no reason to use windows 7 over 10, 10 is in every mensurable way a superior os, it runs faster on the same hardware, its more secure its a easier os to configure,its all around a lighter os it offers more functionality

anybody that  claims otherwise does not know what they are doing PERIOD

the people that drag there feet and wait until the last possible second to upgrade are the scourge of IT support every-ware it causes problems with both aging hardware compatibility software compatibility when that one piece of badly written software does not way to play nice and we end up pulling a all day shift trying to make it work , (and let me make this next part very clear) because some *vendor* still codes everything like its 2001 (and yes this happens ALL OF THE TIME from major corporations E.G general motors software,progressive insurance to name a couple ) 

 and its always a massive pain in the ass and always the client has waited till the last second to make the change over and demands everything work right now) 

and then when enviably when something doesn't work in the exact same manner as they are used to the phone rings 

upgrade early upgrade often in the long run both you and the client will do better


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## Shihab (Mar 10, 2019)

Athlonite said:


> HAHA LOL maybe for older games that only require DX11 or less but try playing a newer AAA game that requires the use of DX12 as for mouse latency I have the same latency in Win7 as I do in Win10 for my Logitech G502 so maybe look at the software you're running for your mouse


I sometimes wonder if people who keep mentioning DX12 as if it's gasoline of video games (adoption-wise) have any clue about statistics...



Nxodus said:


> I've been avoiding home versions ever since I learned about the missing group policy editor feature the hard way in Windows 7 If you like to tweak around in your OS it's always best to install ultimate or enterprise in this case. The update system is something I specifically researched before picking a Win 10 version.


GPO doesn't allow the same set of control over updates in 10 the way it does 7, specifically with issues like these (where you do want to install specific updates, but avoid that specific MS f*ckup). You'll need other tools for that (e.g. Update Minitool, whatever patching system sysadmins use).



Tsukiyomi91 said:


> I love how folks here bashing the air when it's their own fault for upgrading to Windows 10 Home because it's "free", instead of "I have no choice" BS. Since there are cheap legit keys for the Pro editions, might as well go get it while you can & then defer all those updates, tweak the OS & turn off all the settings to get back some control from Microsoft.


"Folks" can change the narrative to "big bad corp extorting money from consumers for necessities." And that would still leave comparison to older versions of Windows valid, so....



Melvis said:


> Will MS really stop support of Windows 7 next yr? I dont think they will because its still has a massive amount of people world wide using it, I can see them carrying on support for a little longer and with the amount of Issues W10 has I still get people asking for Windows 7 Installs over 10 and if clients get to the point they dont have a choice they will move to Apple.


No, they won't, and honestly, the shouldn't.
They won't because it goes against their entire MO thus far; support has already been dropped for 7 on many fronts (hardware support is a major example), and allocating resources to maintain an OS that *doesn't generate income* would make no sense once the legal obligation expires. And let's not forget that people were throwing tantrums over XP as well, didn't stop MS from ditching it (nor did many users, for a while).

They shouldn't, because, well, 7 is old, and it's missing too much stuff that can't be simply plugged in. I'm all for legacy support 'n all, but 7's planned obsolescence has been known for a decade now, and as long as my win32 software continue to run, I'm ok on that front.

Imo, Windows 10 isn't a bad platform in its entirety. Microsoft stubbornness and disregard for consumers' choice and privacy in matters regarding telemetry and data collection, updates and software pushes, etc, are well noted, and I personally would rather see them fix those in 10 rather than maintain 7.


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## metalfiber (Mar 10, 2019)

I'd pay more for an gamers edition of Windows. One that has less crap in it like Cortana and bs like that. Just run the game and what it takes to run the game and nothing else...wishful thinking i know.


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## Athlonite (Mar 10, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> I'd pay more for an gamers edition of Windows. One that has less crap in it like Cortana and bs like that. Just run the game and what it takes to run the game and nothing else...wishful thinking i know.




It's called an XBox one S or X choice is yours


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## metalfiber (Mar 10, 2019)

Athlonite said:


> It's called an XBox one S or X choice is yours



Nope, not the same in the least. Not that i dislike consoles are anything, I've got a PS4 pro. I've built a PC to be more powerful than any current console only to be brought down by an OS update. An update to some program no one hardly uses anyhow.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 10, 2019)

u know there's no such thing as "gaming edition" of Windows 10 when it's clearly a heavily modified Pro edition of the OS. btw, you can make your own by getting Win 10 Pro, disable every single settings post-installation, tweak registry & change UWP app behaviours. (assume you have some beef with UWP) also, it's plain dumb to blame MS when most of the fault lies with the end user who thinks they have no control over their PC.

Last edit: with all respect, Microsoft & other large companies HAS the right to collect or mine your data after you clicked "Agree" to their EULA, regardless of whether you read it or not. Heck, every single software we install, every social media accounts we made & whatnot; ALL have EULAs that we agreed on in order to use them. No point in talking about privacy when you "surrender" your social freedom after signing up. Seeing Win 10 doing all these are nothing new. So why complain about it when you know you half-heartedly agreed to it?


----------



## razaron (Mar 10, 2019)

jmcslob said:


> I feel like this is a patch to a patch that another patch fuckered up.
> My install is 2 months old and I feel like Microsoft has seriously fucked me over!!!
> I have issues with Killer network drivers...my mouse falls under browsers and then they lock up but the PC doesn't.. It turns white-ish with the not responding message.
> But it plays online games just friggin fine... Until it doesn't... Sometimes in the middle of a game I'll find myself on the desktop like I was there the whole time...
> ...


Yeah Windows 10 still has a bunch of issues, especially with "older" hardware. 
For your Killer network controller, you can convert it into the base controller its built from. I have one too and it's based on a Qualcom controller. https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...2200-nic-into-qualcomm-atheros-ar8161.198899/

Also, if you have an older mechanical HDD (like I have from Samsung), advanced power management (APM) is fucked up. So it will randomly go to sleep mid-game, then realize it's still in use and start up again straight away. With some games this just makes them freeze for a few seconds while the HDD wakes up but in others it can cause crashes (Path of Exile gave me your messageless crash). You can disable APM with a bunch of software. I personally use CrystalDiskMark and it works fine.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 10, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> Nope, not the same in the least. Not that i dislike consoles are anything, I've got a PS4 pro. I've built a PC to be more powerful than any current console only to be brought down by an OS update. An update to some program no one hardly uses anyhow.



But its *not brought down* by an 'OS update'. Even with the reduced performance there is a fair chance you'd never even notice. Like I'm saying, I play quite a lot of games and I really can't tell - from a clean install compared to having all the spectre, meltdown mitigations from the MB vendor and MS itself updated. And even IF you don't like an update, this topic contains the info you need to avoid it. No different from any situation on 7, where tinkering was needed to get things the way you want them to be.

I think people misunderstand things quite a bit. MS does _not_ benefit from making its OS more bloated and overall slower, especially not if they want to push it or lightweight versions of it to smaller and more mobile devices. MS also has a gaming brand on the PC they call Xbox. They also have a gaming brand called Xbox consoles. MS does _not_ benefit from making gaming slower on any platform. This is why they also push things like a game mode, though frankly, I never use it because the difference isn't really noticeable.

These things, just like a broken update, hurt their brand image. And that extends beyond the consumer realm as well. These same consumers are also _employees working with MS enterprise solutions._

Bottom line, we share a lot of things as consumers and MS, we mostly want the same thing, there is little reason to be against everything and most notably, against progress. I'm using 7 and 10 side by side almost daily and I can objectively say 10 is faster and more responsive in every way, it boots faster, it is less prone to crashing or not being able to continue when other applications crash, and yes, it gets more updates which also means sometimes things change a bit. On 7, most updates served to fix glaring security holes everywhere and 'add functionality' such as a half broken Windows Defender, which, ironically, is also one of the better anti malware suites right now on 10.



Tsukiyomi91 said:


> ALL have EULAs that we agreed on in order to use them. No point in talking about privacy when you "surrender" your social freedom after signing up. Seeing Win 10 doing all these are nothing new. So why complain about it when you know you half-heartedly agreed to it?



Wow wow hold on now. Is that really a choice? There is legislation coming and already in place that limits the weight of an EULA, specifically because its a 'choice' that presents no real choice; you either suck it up or you don't use a product or service. There isn't much to agree to, in many cases you've already made an expense prior to accepting it, a sale was already made, etc.

Its the same as the recent adaptation to cookie walls; forcing a user to click 'accept' or otherwise denying access to the website is going to be considered illegal. Cookie walls must be adjusted, users have to be able to visit sites WITH the actual choice of disabling tracking cookies and telemetry. In the same way, I expect an OS with near monopoly to follow the same principle.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/european-data-protection-board-backs-61821/

Its an interesting battle over our data being waged right now and the devil is in these details. Its only a matter of time for everyone to get back in line.


----------



## Tsukiyomi91 (Mar 10, 2019)

as someone who frequently use beta builds of Windows, I say Windows OS has come a long way. 10 is by far the better overall OS when it comes to supporting newer hardware, loves super fast storage drives like a PCIe SSD, DirectX Ray Tracing API (only for RTX GPUs), HDR support & whatnot. Comparing Win 7 to 10 is like saying that a classic race car is better than a new-gen race car fitted with bleeding edge tech when older stuff will run into more problems much more frequently as support for them becomes irrelevant or has reached EOL.


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## hat (Mar 10, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Wow wow hold on now. Is that really a choice? There is legislation coming and already in place that limits the weight of an EULA, specifically because its a 'choice' that presents no real choice; you either suck it up or you don't use a product or service. There isn't much to agree to, in many cases you've already made an expense prior to accepting it, a sale was already made, etc.
> 
> Its the same as the recent adaptation to cookie walls; forcing a user to click 'accept' or otherwise denying access to the website is going to be considered illegal. Cookie walls must be adjusted, users have to be able to visit sites WITH the actual choice of disabling tracking cookies and telemetry. In the same way, I expect an OS with near monopoly to follow the same principle.
> 
> ...



Agreed. I think these people are mining way too much of our data. And what choice do we have?

I can't very well switch to Linux, so I'm stuck on W10 (albeit with ShutUp10, but we can't really be sure how effective that is).

I'm trying to stay away from Google, but all I've really managed to do is switch to a chrome derivative run by people who (supposedly) aren't mining my data. Also, I can't afford an iPhone, not that Apple is a whole lot better...

Cookies contain data that make websites work for you. For instance, you're not logging into TPU and posting here if you have sworn off of using cookies. That said, there's a vast difference between a cookie that stores your login info here at TPU, to a cookie that tracks you all over the web...


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## Vayra86 (Mar 10, 2019)

hat said:


> Agreed. I think these people are mining way too much of our data. And what choice do we have?
> 
> I can't very well switch to Linux, so I'm stuck on W10 (albeit with ShutUp10, but we can't really be sure how effective that is).
> 
> ...



Thing is, its really not hard to make these distinctions within cookies (tracking / storing login info, etc), but it eats into a business model. There are some websites that already present choices, they provide a popup with several checkboxes and a brief explanation of what they do. What's been happening in the past few decades is that advertising had a free pass to mine data and improve the ad services because people weren't 'in the know' about how that data was mined. Today that is different and advertisers got addicted to all that easy money. All this panic about the internet dying due to adblockers and cookie walls or GDPR are complete BS, its the same as this eternal fear of the OS upgrade: change. I think its very clear that the current, constant escalation of how ads are presented (both online and offline) cannot last, this is why people actively do things to avoid advertising all the time.


----------



## FYFI13 (Mar 10, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> your issues have nothing todo with microsoft you have a hardware problem bud


I'm pretty sure your Shift key and these two weirdos (.,) are in pristine condition on your keyboard.


----------



## trparky (Mar 10, 2019)

It's funny how people complain so much about Windows 10 yet I have it running on a variety of hardware in my home and I have absolutely no issues. I even support other people and do computer work for them and even they have no issues with Windows 10. I have no idea why people complain so much, I have no issues. Then again, I'm not trying to tweak this and that in the OS; I leave things pretty much alone. As for the telemetry, I just turn the thing to Basic mode and that's it. If it's good enough for Europe and their GDPR it's good enough for me.


----------



## OneMoar (Mar 10, 2019)

metalfiber said:


> I'd pay more for an gamers edition of Windows. One that has less crap in it like Cortana and bs like that. Just run the game and what it takes to run the game and nothing else...wishful thinking i know.


that exists its called windows 10 enterprise


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> It's funny how people complain so much about Windows 10 yet I have it running on a variety of hardware in my home and I have absolutely no issues. I even support other people and do computer work for them and even they have no issues with Windows 10. I have no idea why people complain so much, I have no issues. Then again, I'm not trying to tweak this and that in the OS; I leave things pretty much alone. As for the telemetry, I just turn the thing to Basic mode and that's it. If it's good enough for Europe and their GDPR is good enough for me.


I like W10.  I have it on most of my pc’s. But your experience is anecdotal.  Equally anecdotal are the many people who have problems even upgrading to the new feature update every six months, including me once or twice.  This then necessitates a fresh install every 6 months, which is ridiculous.  6 months is too frequent.

For this reason, I advocate to everyone I help to get W10, but get Pro at least, so they can control this way too frequent new OS install every 6 months.  This can limit it to once per year, which is much more reasonable.


----------



## trparky (Mar 10, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> 6 months is too frequent.


That I would agree with you on. They really do need to slow down on the releases, even Google and Apple only do one major release a year.


----------



## Shihab (Mar 10, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> I like W10.  I have it on most of my pc’s. But your experience is anecdotal.  Equally anecdotal are the many people who have problems even upgrading to the new feature update every six months, including me once or twice.  This then necessitates a fresh install every 6 months, which is ridiculous.  6 months is too frequent.
> 
> For this reason, I advocate to everyone I help to get W10, but get Pro at least, so they can control this way too frequent new OS install every 6 months.  This can limit it to once per year, which is much more reasonable.



Exception being the widespread bugs a la OP. Which has gotten so frequent in recent years that it should make people question, not just MS' QA, but all the other programmes MS has implemented -and drawn criticism for- with Win10 (Insider programme, Telemetry).

Whoever came up with the idea that Windows should drastically change every 6 months (heck, or even 12! Desktops/Laptops aren't gimmiky smartphones) has done Windows and the market the greatest disservice they ever had.


----------



## trparky (Mar 10, 2019)

Shihabyooo said:


> Whoever came up with the idea that Windows should drastically change every 6 months (heck, or even 12! Desktops/Laptops aren't gimmiky smartphones) has done Windows and the market the greatest disservice they ever had.


Blame the millennials that think they just have to have the latest and greatest features and whiz-bang stuff. They want new stuff and they want it now.


----------



## ShurikN (Mar 10, 2019)

Since I'm playing a lot of Destiny 2 lately, I wanted to give it a try, see what happens. For science.
First of all, the update is still available (at the time of this writing 16:40 UTC 10. Mar)
Second, I tested the same zone in Destiny 2 with and without the update. Dreaming City, spawning point.
Without it the frame rate is capped at my monitor refresh rate (60 FPS). No dips. The laptop is capable to push more uncapped but the experience is much quieter with it.
With the update the frame rate goes all over the place, and dips to 35 FPS in the same place with some next level frame drops. I'm talking early days of CF/SLI frame drops.
Uninstalled the update, frame rate went back to normal.


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## Mescalamba (Mar 10, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> your issues have nothing todo with microsoft you have a hardware problem bud



Yea, someone said it to me too.

Then I upgraded to Long Term Service Branch of Windows 10 and zero issues since then. Sure, it loses stuff from normal Win 10, but gains every day reliability. Kinda prefer it instead of having some fuckups due Win 10 update every second or third update.

They could rename it Win 10 LTSB FTW.


----------



## king of swag187 (Mar 10, 2019)

Manu_PT said:


> Any news? Windows7 has almost half latency than windows10. Mouse behaviour is superior on win7 translation wise (closest to 1:1) anyone serious about online gaming dont use w10. Worst OS ever for gamets.


*cough* Linux or MacOS *cough*


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## Melvis (Mar 11, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> its your job as a MSP to make them understand, if you don't believe in the product you are recommending then neither will the client
> 
> 
> there is absolutely no reason to use windows 7 over 10, 10 is in every mensurable way a superior os, it runs faster on the same hardware, its more secure its a easier os to configure,its all around a lighter os it offers more functionality
> ...



I tell my clients the truth, nothing more nothing less, I believed in the product at the start but ever since then it has had nothing but issues more and more to the point its just got ridiculous and until it is fully stable and working with out all the current issues I dont recommend it unless there is no choice which is more and more the case these days sadly. 

There are many reasons not to go to 10 over 7 and the proof is in the pudding, It doesnt lose or stop working your Wifi or printer settings/drivers after each major update and you dont run the risk of losing all your Document files like the last major one did. Thats just a few off the top of my head. 

incorrect! Windows 10 does NOT run faster over 7 on the same hardware this is completely false! and in no way lighter in anyway shape or form, its worse then Vista on how heavy and slow it is. I know for a fact it is an extremely slow OS from using it many times on different hardware and its horrific! especially on a mechanical HDD and also slower on a SSD which I will show you a quick msg from a client of mine that reverted back to 7 because of W10 issues.




 

This was on a machine running an i5 CPU and a SSD and you can see for yourself that even from a clients view she can tell how much faster 7 is on the exact same hardware. 

Well sadly your claims are very false and wrong and its clear you dont know what your talking about PERIOD!

Thats not the clients fault now is it? if there is badly written software then its up to the developers to fix it or make said software good from the start which I see time and time again the hardware we have today and honestly for the past decade has been great! but the software has been shocking and way behind! Why should people be forced to upgrade to something that isnt as good? when there hardware is perfectly fine? in what world does that make any kind of sense? yes it can be a pain in the butt to transition files or programs from an old OS to a newer one but that has only become an issue more so since 10 because of the lack of support it has with older software which you dont have with 7. 

Your living in a world that isnt reality, people dont have the $$$$$ to continually upgrade there system all the time its just not how it works in the real world. People use there PC's till its ether to slow to do what they want it to do or said modern software only works on said OS (like office 2019) 

Im all for Windows 10 but it has proven time and time again to be to buggy and slow and terrible damaging updates which clients DO NOT like to hear and only turns them off. Once 10 is finally working correctly I will happy recommend it but at this stage I cant do that and  would be telling a lie! 

(Windows 10 install at your own risk) lol




Shihabyooo said:


> No, they won't, and honestly, the shouldn't.
> They won't because it goes against their entire MO thus far; support has already been dropped for 7 on many fronts (hardware support is a major example), and allocating resources to maintain an OS that *doesn't generate income* would make no sense once the legal obligation expires. And let's not forget that people were throwing tantrums over XP as well, didn't stop MS from ditching it (nor did many users, for a while).
> 
> They shouldn't, because, well, 7 is old, and it's missing too much stuff that can't be simply plugged in. I'm all for legacy support 'n all, but 7's planned obsolescence has been known for a decade now, and as long as my win32 software continue to run, I'm ok on that front.
> ...



I bet they will and to be honest they already have for people that run Pro or for the corporate environment, support has been continued past 2020 but for a fee from what I have read so far but lets face it they continued support for XP for another 2yrs with exactly what you have said just now but it had a user base WAY less then Windows 7 does, so i bet it will get a few more years or your going to have Millions of very upset users world wide. 

No not really, yes its not supported as much on newer hardware as it once was but you can still find that it still is supported more then you think, for one all you have to do is look at my system specs to find that out  and that is fully supported on Windows 7, heck the latest client PC I just built had support for Windows 7 on a B450 Motherboard. So no it hasnt been dropped but is alot less. 

I havent had any issues with plugging in anything to my or any other clients PC's that have not worked, heck I was able to get Windows 7 installed on a Acer Predator PC from Harvey Norman that had NO support for Windows 7 at all on the webpage or motherboard listing but I got it fully installed with all drivers working on a M.2 SSD (Client is so happy he is back on 7 btw) 

Everything else I agree with, I was really gunning for Windows 10 to start off with, its not the best lay out honestly but I dont mind it as I use it every day on my laptop but its just those silly stupid issues it has that keep coming up that have really made me hate the damn OS, all I do is fix W10 issues or more so Wifi problems, Printer/scanner issues, OS F ing up after a update etc etc, like come on! One business had to replace the massive printer for a new one because the drivers/W 10 would keep F ing up all the time, wasnt cheap! to replace the monster of a printer but would work perfectly fine on the Windows 7 machine, its a cost they shouldnt of had to do but alas they did and it was there choice because in the real world people just dont listen....sigh.


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## Easo (Mar 11, 2019)

This was not a Patch Tuesday update, normally it would get automatically installed only when someone actively checks for updates (yeah, MS didnt plan this one out, but I digress). So I dont think this update reached many users (yes, I know that "few" is still a lot since W10 runs on 800 million machines by now).
P.S.
One thing for sure, while system feature upgrade happens twice a year, I will not agree that it changes things drastically. I would argue there are too few noticable changes to even mark the jump from, say 1803 to 1809. Few more icons changed, more stuff moved to the UWP Settings app, but the rest is mostly under the hood.
P.P.S.
And people here running Enterprise or LTSB - yeah, what was that about piracy? xD You cannot even get those versions for home use legally.


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## Shihab (Mar 11, 2019)

IMO, any update that introduces and/or changes too many things at once (with the side effect of increasing probability of breaking stuff) is drastic. Changes don't necessarily have to be visible to have reaching effects, but c'mon! Compared to the service packs of old, 10's biannually _"major_" updates are packing with "new features" (read: gimmicks).



trparky said:


> Blame the millennials that think they just have to have the latest and greatest features and whiz-bang stuff. They want new stuff and they want it now.



Now hold on just a minute, that can't be our fault too! We can't be single handedly ruining the economy AND technology! 




Melvis said:


> I bet they will and to be honest they already have for people that run Pro or for the corporate environment, support has been continued past 2020 but for a fee from what I have read so far but lets face it they continued support for XP for another 2yrs with exactly what you have said just now but it had a user base WAY less then Windows 7 does, so i bet it will get a few more years or your going to have Millions of very upset users world wide.



Just to clarify, the legally-obligated support I mentioned is the free one detailed in the Windows lifecycle factsheet, which is basically all home -and probably most pro- usercases. Not everyone has or can get an enterprise license ora volume licensed Pro. The paid support scheme was also a known fact, iirc.
In all faireness, save for locking out updates from machines using new chips, MS isn't doing much different with 7 than previous versions.

Side note: Does anyone know if the quoted prices for per-computer, extended-extended support have minimum requirements?


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## juiseman (Mar 11, 2019)

I want to install Win 7 on 1 of my 7 computers....It relaxes me; I miss Aero, the Win 7 default background, the speed and simplicity...oh yea the most important

 I CAN TURN OFF AUTOMATIC UPDATES
THAT KEEP MESSING UP SOMETHING!!!!


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## Athlonite (Mar 11, 2019)

juiseman said:


> I CAN TURN OFF AUTOMATIC UPDATES THAT KEEP MESSING UP SOMETHING!!!!



You do know you can do that in Windows 10 too if you find it to hard to do manually then I suggest you download O&O Shut Up 10 and run it scroll down to where it says disable windows update and check all the boxes exit the program and reboot and Ta Da updates be gone


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

Athlonite said:


> You do know you can do that in Windows 10 too if you find it to hard to do manually then I suggest you download O&O Shut Up 10 and run it scroll down to where it says disable windows update and check all the boxes exit the program and reboot and Ta Da updates be gone


And after that, use Windows Update minitool to download what you want.  You can even hide updates with it.  The only thing it can’t do is hide the feature Updates.  There are other ways to do that.


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## John Naylor (Mar 11, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> You’ve got Enterprise, I’ve got Pro, but consider this: most users have plain Jane home version, which literally gives zero control over updates.  I notice this between my rig on Pro, where I delay feature updates nearly 9 months and regular updates 10 days.  My HTPC uses W10 Home, and literally updates when it wants.



You have to get a bit creative but it is still possible to stop WU ... be careful where you search as many instructions are no longer functional as MS removed the functionality  ... this one makes me laugh, interesting definition of "1 click" ...  








While I would say for most, it's better to let the tool do it's thing,they should leave pro version users alone ....  our network encompasses 286 PC-Years (No. of PCs in use x years in usage) and has yet to experience an infection or downtime other than a) failed hardware, b) problems caused by updates breaking things.

https://www.windowslatest.com/2019/...allow-windows-10-home-users-to-pause-updates/

"Lack of control" is probably the biggest reason Win10 has had such a slow uptake rate having finally surpassed Win7 in market share in November of 2018 (3.7 years after release) which is kinda amazing since it was free.


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## hat (Mar 11, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> And after that, use Windows Update minitool to download what you want.  You can even hide updates with it.  The only thing it can’t do is hide the feature Updates.  There are other ways to do that.


Interesting that you need two third party programs to control Windows Update... and even then, not completely. And while MS isn't busy crippling your computer in one way or another, they're building a profile about which cat pictures you like best.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

hat said:


> Interesting that you need two third party programs to control Windows Update... and even then, not completely. And while MS isn't busy crippling your computer in one way or another, they're building a profile about which cat pictures you like best.


LOL, hate cats.  The alternative is to just get Pro and completely control the update cycle.


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## EarthDog (Mar 11, 2019)

Or use shutup10 or similar.


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## hat (Mar 11, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> LOL, hate cats.  The alternative is to just get Pro and completely control the update cycle.


Completely? I mean, I'd recommend this approach to anyone (at least you can defer problematic updates like the infamous 1809 for a while) but I still don't call this complete control.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 11, 2019)

hat said:


> Completely? I mean, I'd recommend this approach to anyone (at least you can defer problematic updates like the infamous 1809 for a while) but I still don't call this complete control.


Yeah, you’re right.  You can get a year out of it.  This then leaves you the choice of 2 feature updates you install (whichever is the most stable).


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## denixius (Mar 12, 2019)

Some of my friends having mouse degradation problems in Rainbow 6 Siege and World of Warcraft, too.


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## sohail888 (Mar 12, 2019)

resident evil 2 is now lagging after update


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## OneMoar (Mar 12, 2019)

Melvis said:


> I tell my clients the truth, nothing more nothing less, I believed in the product at the start but ever since then it has had nothing but issues more and more to the point its just got ridiculous and until it is fully stable and working with out all the current issues I dont recommend it unless there is no choice which is more and more the case these days sadly.
> 
> There are many reasons not to go to 10 over 7 and the proof is in the pudding, It doesnt lose or stop working your Wifi or printer settings/drivers after each major update and you dont run the risk of losing all your Document files like the last major one did. Thats just a few off the top of my head.
> 
> ...



literally everything you have said is wrong I won't brother rebuking it people like you are why I stay in business more power to you with your old outdated broken os that I need to spend hours on fixing

we are 85/h per tech good luck


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## moproblems99 (Mar 12, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> literally everything you have said is wrong I won't brother rebuking it people like you are why I stay in business more power to you with your old outdated broken os that I need to spend hours on fixing
> 
> we are 85/h per tech good luck



I honestly am curious about this as I have noticed a growing lack of professionalism in professional communications.  Do you actually use punctuation or grammar in communications with your clients?  I know this is a forum but bad habits are bad habits.

I have noticed it with my fortune 500 client all the way down to my mom and pop clients.


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## OneMoar (Mar 12, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I honestly am curious about this as I have noticed a growing lack of professionalism in professional communications.  Do you actually use punctuation or grammar in communications with your clients?  I know this is a forum but bad habits are bad habits.
> 
> I have noticed it with my fortune 500 client all the way down to my mom and pop clients.



ad`hominem will get you nowhere also it is  'clients', not 'client'.


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## EarthDog (Mar 12, 2019)

And not using punctuation to make something readable takes a respectable post and cheapens it quite a bit. There is something said to be said for at least trying to use punctuation. Nobody is perfect (looks at imperfect self in mirror), but... it looks like the period button is broken on your keyboard.


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## OneMoar (Mar 12, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> And not using punctuation to make something readable takes a respectable post and cheapens it quite a bit. There is something said to be said for at least trying to use punctuation. Nobody is perfect (looks at imperfect self in mirror), but... it looks like the period button is broken on your keyboard.



punctuation is for suckers real men communicate in a series of grunts and other bodily noises


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## EarthDog (Mar 12, 2019)

I bet your knuckles are calloused from dragging those suckers on the ground. 

Hopefully standing upright is in your future, lol!


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## OneMoar (Mar 12, 2019)

EarthDog said:


> I bet your knuckles are calloused from dragging those suckers on the ground.
> 
> Hopefully standing upright is in your future, lol!


Oggabooga


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## moproblems99 (Mar 12, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> ad`hominem will get you nowhere also it is  'clients', not 'client'.



I honestly wasn't trying to attack which is why I said I was honestly curious.  It is only something I have noticed in my professional life.  It is also why I said: I know this is a forum.



OneMoar said:


> also it is  'clients', not 'client'.



Actually, that is a big WRONG.  I only have one fortune 500 client.  The rest of them are more medium and small sized.  I forgive your assumption.


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## trparky (Mar 12, 2019)

And it looks like KB4489899 (OS Build 17763.379) fixes the issue.


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## EarthDog (Mar 12, 2019)

trparky said:


> And it looks like KB4489899 (OS Build 17763.379) fixes the issue.


Link/notes?


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## TheOne (Mar 12, 2019)

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4489899/windows-10-update-kb4489899



> *Improvements and fixes*
> 
> 
> This update includes quality improvements. No new operating system features are being introduced in this update. Key changes include:
> ...


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## Melvis (Mar 13, 2019)

OneMoar said:


> literally everything you have said is wrong I won't brother rebuking it people like you are why I stay in business more power to you with your old outdated broken os that I need to spend hours on fixing
> 
> we are 85/h per tech good luck








Straight back at ya!

literally everything you have said is wrong I won't bother rebuking it people like you are why I stay in business more power to you with your  broken os that I need to spend hours on fixing


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## Litzner (Mar 13, 2019)

Hmmm... I just got an update last night. I will have to check if it is this one when I get home.


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## Deleted member 158293 (Mar 13, 2019)

The only reason I still have a (legacy) windows partition is for a few games and even this gets messed up,  funny that.


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## moproblems99 (Mar 13, 2019)

You can now delay updates for 35 days on Windows 10 Home.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 13, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> You can now delay updates for 35 days on Windows 10 Home.


Useful and nice they extended that to home versions.  But my experience is W10 monthly patches are not usually a problem.  It is the semiannual OS changeover that really is responsible for most people’s troubles.


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## Disgrace (Sep 2, 2019)

Windows 10   1903 last update is a fucking disgrace for gaming. Fucking shame.  CPU high usage DISK high usage graphics issues,  discrete GPU not found  windows update biometric and update background process HIGH ussage.
FPS  drops issues, stuttering , lag  HIGH END powerfull  PC with intel last generation CPU and  goood invidia GPU with Windows 10 now is a SHAME performance.
 If microsoft dont fix this  hole update  with new clear and good patch, I will say fuck you to microsoft and  i will install  LUNUX, ( bad for gaming , wineHQ necessary)  or  Windows 7 or WINDOWS XP PIRATE VERSIONS 


END OF STORY


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## er557 (Sep 2, 2019)

you just registered and your first post is a MS trolling... good luck with that


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## Disgrace (Sep 2, 2019)

lol you're great  " analysator ". Your  words are very useful. You wish me luck to troll MS:X. My registration is not important. I am not a troller, i am actually MS fan and loyalty user. I express my anger with this shitty update that fucks my pc perfomance. ;(( This is my opinion. This is the truth!
Be kind and don't tell me what to do ,especially  good luck who to troling 

Your comment is useless. Empty words. Add one to your counter history .... fictitious specialist


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 2, 2019)

Disgrace said:


> MS fan and loyalty user.



Express your gratitude in feedback hub and upvote existing problems, so the dev team picks them up as priority. You can shove this anger elsewhere...

Sheesh... full of dandelions here as usual...


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## OneMoar (Sep 2, 2019)

poor people with poor computers


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## trparky (Sep 3, 2019)

Well considering that this update is not one of them usually scheduled updates in that it wasn't released on the Second Tuesday of the Month schedule I'm going to guess that not a lot of systems were hit by this High Cortana CPU Usage issue. I know my system is still running 18362.295 which was released on August 13th and I'm not seeing this issue.

I usually let Windows Update download updates only when it needs to, I don't force it anymore and neither should anyone else if they want system stability. Updates such as the 18362.329 update are sort of test updates, updates to test the waters. If you don't want these kinds of updates to install, don't go manually checking for updates.

I did check my system and it's saying that this update is optional, meaning it's not being pushed to all systems; only those that have users who want to test this kind of stuff.


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