# The problem with the latency / lag and 5.1 Audio Out - and the modded drivers



## [S] (Mar 3, 2020)

Sound, especially on the pc, is creating lag for various reasons which results in, the worst case, not beeing lip sync which is easily noticeable when watching movies - but in a lesser way noticeable when playing games. Its a subjective view if you notice this delay - me for myself, beeing a gamer, am quiet picky. In my experience the delay is noticeable starting with 15ms for SOME people.

my goal: 5.1 latency free pc audio with a av receiver.

In my testings it was *not *possible to archive anything like *latency free* audio output with the *modded realtek drivers*.

*Summary*
There a 3 sources to produce lag:
- Audio Source: Audio processing on the pc side
- Audio Destination: Audio processing on the output (avr) side
- Connection: Compressing and Decompressing for transferring the audio

Connection
As a result TosLink 5.1. is the worst connection method - it needs compression and this takes time.
5.1 Analog Audio is a good option - but modern AVR missing multichannel analog in and even my Denon 3010 got one, there is no audio post processing possible.
HDMI is the best option: no compression, digital and AVR can process the sound to make it sound really good. (depending on the avr)

Audio Source
Soundblaster Z 5.1 Analog = 40ms latency
Soundblaster Xi-Fi 5.1 Analog = 80ms latency
*Mainboard 5.1 Analog (realtek), modded driver = 80+ms latency*
Mainboard 5.1 Analog (realtek), default driver = no latency
HDMI, no driver processing = no latency

Audio Destination
AVR pure direct = 0-20ms, depends on the avr 
AVR processing (default) = pure direct + 20-30ms


*Test-Method*
I tested several setups and measured this delay the following way:
I clicked within a "music-keyboard" software on a pianokey which results in one tone audio output. While doing this, i recorded the audio output with my android phone,uploaded the wav file and looked at the time between the mouse-click-sound and the audio output graphically.
The "baseline" (best possible result) was measured on a notebook with its integrated speakers (win10 default audio driver).

Hardware
MSI Ace Z390 with Realtek ACL 1220 Chip
Creative Soundbaster Z / XiFi USB
Denon AVR 3010 / Denon AVR x3100W / Teufel Decoderstation 5
Samsung Galaxy S9
Nvidia RTX 2070 Super (for hdmi audio out)

Software
Clean Windows 10
OceanAudio Wav Editor
X-VisualMusic "Piano Software"
Soundrecorder on the Android Device


As a result i go with the hdmi avr default processing solution. 
Direct ("pure direct") passthrough on the avr side results in almost no latency (at least on the denon 3010) but sounds much worse than with processing.
*Using anything like modded realtek driver, TosLink or even Creative Soundblaster (behind a AVR which additionally adds latency) is not the best way to get latency free pc audio. At least for gaming.*


PC Audio OutDriverInputInput Modedifference to baselinecommentNotebookWindows RealtekNB Speaker0​+-10HDMI Nvidia, no enhancementsDenon 3010Direct0​+-10HDMI Nvidia Denon 3010Default25​Denon processing is adding 20-25ms, Nvidia Audio enhancements 5msRealtek Analog 5.1Windows DefaultDenon 3010Direct0​same with HDMISBZ Analog 5.1CreativeDenon 3010Direct40​Creative Driver is adding 40msSBZ TosLinkCreativeDenon 3010Directtoo muchCreative Driver is adding 40ms + TosLink compressRealtek Analog 5.1AAF 6.0.89000Denon 3010Direct100​Modded Driver Adds 100msHDMI Nvidia, no enhancementsDenon X3100WDirect20​Denon X3100W  is adding 20 by default, without processingHDMI Nvidia, no enhancementsDenon X3100WGame43​Denon X3100W  is adding 20 by default + 20ms in GameMode (+20ms in normal mode)


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## CityCultivator (Mar 4, 2020)

Excellent research. 
Most modded Realtek drivers have a lot of processing, thus high latency. 
I use compressed spdif, but from hdmi (a hdmi>spdif box is used). Htib has no hdmi in. 
Only audio enhancer I use is Dolby atmos' DSU for upscaling stereo to 5.1 
In this limited configuration latency does not feel terrible and upscaling quality is much better than the htib processing.


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

Realtek direct Toslink compression and the decompression on the other side should be something like 40-60ms. As long as you dont use a creative soundblaster i think it might be ok.

By the way: Has your htib multichannel in?


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## Zyll Goliat (Mar 4, 2020)

Yeah audio can cause "bad"latency and sometimes can be easily fixed just with the different driver also network adapter or usb port and peripherals can cause the latency issue....anyway there is an excellent free program LatencyMon where you can check your PC latency's and see if you have any issues that need to be fixed......


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## EarthDog (Mar 4, 2020)

So, are you saying the best (lowest latency) is using onboard audio and it's natural processing or hdmi to a receiver? Cant say this is surprising...

..thanks?!


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

Cant say that a coment like this on an Internet Forum is suprising, earthdog.


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## Zyll Goliat (Mar 4, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> So, are you saying the best (lowest latency) is using onboard audio and it's natural processing or hdmi to a receiver? Cant say this is surprising...
> 
> ..thanks?!


Theoretically yes(decent)onboard audio should be the best option for lowest latency but I believe that good PCI/PCI-E audio card is also good to go tho' from other side can not be sure about the USB audio cards.......


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

All iam saying is that toslink is a bad idea as well as audio processing on the Output side.


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## ador250 (Mar 4, 2020)

I made a mod only Realtek default + DDL or DTSC, not bloated like AAF mod. Can u test them, Link
u have to disable driver signature enforcement before installing the driver @


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## Deleted member 67555 (Mar 4, 2020)

Zyll Goliath said:


> Theoretically yes(decent)onboard audio should be the best option for lowest latency but I believe that good PCI/PCI-E audio card is also good to go tho' from other side can not be sure about the USB audio cards.......


I wonder about how the onboard is connected as in is it hardwired into a PCI-E lane to the CPU which would put it slightly faster/equal with a slotted PCI-E card or some other way that could be slower???


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

Its not about the internal digital connection, hdmi out of the NVIDIA gpu is as fast as the realtek analog out.

Its driver / Software / Compression related.


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## EarthDog (Mar 4, 2020)

Zyll Goliath said:


> Theoretically yes(decent)onboard audio should be the best option for lowest latency but I believe that good PCI/PCI-E audio card is also good to go tho' from other side can not be sure about the USB audio cards.......


Right... just thought this was more known is all. Everything tends to add some sort of latency. Nice to see it in print, though I can't say I've noticed much in my years dealing with integrated audio, sound cards, receivers, etc. So this is a nice PSA for those who may not be aware and for whom can notice.

Plenty of people game happily with sound cards and haven't complained about such things. Surely they are there, but I wonder if the "15ms threshold" is really where the line is drawn. To post in threads asking about the best sound and saying not to use an audio card is a bit peculiar to me solely based on latency...

EDIT: My question is with audio cards however, is if there is less latency if the card is plugged into a PCIe slot attached to the CPU versus one attached to the PCH (which is what integrated audio uses on Z390).


jmcslob said:


> I wonder about how the onboard is connected as in is it hardwired into a PCI-E lane to the CPU which would put it slightly faster/equal with a slotted PCI-E card or some other way that could be slower???


Ha... I just saw this post, see my edit above.

Integrated audio is connected to the PCH...


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## Zyll Goliat (Mar 4, 2020)

jmcslob said:


> I wonder about how the onboard is connected as in is it hardwired into a PCI-E lane to the CPU which would put it slightly faster/equal with a slotted PCI-E card or some other way that could be slower???


Well I am not expert in that field I can only assume that in theory that something that is already integrated on the board should be faster but beside the  connection there is many other things related and  now we really start with the nitpicking as @S said above most of the time when we can detect and really notice the problem it's probably due the software related/driver issue or maybe hardware malfunction....



EarthDog said:


> Right... just thought this was more known is all. Everything tends to add some sort of latency. Nice to see it in print, though I can't say I've noticed much in my years dealing with integrated audio, sound cards, receivers, etc. So this is a nice PSA for those who may not be aware and for whom can notice.
> 
> Plenty of people game happily with sound cards and haven't complained about such things. Surely they are there, but I wonder if the "15ms threshold" is really where the line is drawn. To post in threads asking about the best sound and saying not to use an audio card is a bit peculiar to me solely based on latency...
> 
> EDIT: My question is with audio cards however, is if there is less latency if the card is plugged into a PCIe slot attached to the CPU versus one attached to the PCH (which is what integrated audio uses on Z390).



Sure as you said everything tends to add some sort of latency and believe me sometimes even not properly OC CPU or memory can cause those latency spikes and most of the time people are not  aware of that because even in games sometimes is not so obvious if your FPS drops here and there....That's why I love LatencyMon just leave it ON for a while and see are you always in "GREEN".....


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## Deleted member 67555 (Mar 4, 2020)

[S] said:


> Its not about the internal digital connection, hdmi out of the NVIDIA gpu is as fast as the realtek analog out.
> 
> Its driver / Software / Compression related.


I'm going to remove my Soundblaster because of this thread.
I only put it back in because my onboard doesn't handle headphones very well.
I do have a few issues...not sure if it's enough latency to notice...but less is what I want so...thank you in advance


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## bug (Mar 4, 2020)

Well, having experimented with this quite recently, my biggest problem was the baseline. No matter how many drivers I updated and what hardware I disabled, my Win10 laptop simply refused to meet the DPC requirements for proper audio. And it's a fairly recent laptop, Skylake based.
I was kind of surprised $800 worth of equipment can't handle something as simple as movie playback. $35 worth of Chromecast can.


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## EarthDog (Mar 4, 2020)

jmcslob said:


> I'm going to remove my Soundblaster because of this thread.
> I only put it back in because my onboard doesn't handle headphones very well.
> I do have a few issues...not sure if it's enough latency to notice...but less is what I want so...thank you in advance


So, even though you don't notice any latency issues, you are going to remove your sound card?

Esit: I also wonder if different sound cards yield different latency....


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

This Video will work if you have a larger latency issue: 







 .


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## bug (Mar 4, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> So, even though you don't notice any latency issues, you are going to remove your sound card?
> 
> Esit: I also wonder if different sound cards yield different latency....


I've said it many times before: if you're going to use a digital out, you shouldn't bother adding a dedicated sound card at all. I usually get downvoted for this


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

@bug: that is only partially correct. Creative Soundblaster for example modifies the sound (pre-processing) and compresses the analog output to its toslink out.
This is why creative digital (toslink) out is the worst idea.


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## bug (Mar 4, 2020)

[S] said:


> @bug: that is only partially correct. Creative Soundblaster for example modifies the sound (pre-processing) and compresses the analog output to its toslink out.
> This is why creative digital (toslink) out is the worst idea.


I'm confused, which part is incorrect? Should you install a dedicated sound card to use digital out?


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## Deleted member 67555 (Mar 4, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> So, even though you don't notice any latency issues, you are going to remove your sound card?
> 
> Esit: I also wonder if different sound cards yield different latency....


No I'm not sure...I may have a latency issue and I'm hoping this resolves it...if I have a latency issue.
On CoD MW I had noticed that it seemed as if I had a delay in audio...nothing dramatic...I feel like I've been missing that split second.
BTW my wife thinks I'm nuts about this.
I think it started either when I got a pair of headphones or after a game update...both happened around the same time if not on the same day....That's when I installed the SB....talking maybe a month ago
Again my wife thinks I'm chasing a white whale...


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## EarthDog (Mar 4, 2020)

jmcslob said:


> No I'm not sure...I may have a latency issue and I'm hoping this resolves it...if I have a latency issue.


I think it's worth testing, but I'll bet you wouldnt notice in a double blind... 



jmcslob said:


> Again my wife thinks I'm chasing a white whale...


I'm with her... 





@ [*s] what do you think about different sound cards and different latency? What about cpu sourced pcie slots versus pch??


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## bug (Mar 4, 2020)

@EarthDog I believe software(drivers) make more of a difference than hardware does. But it's just my educated guess (at best).


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

bug said:


> I'm confused, which part is incorrect? Should you install a dedicated sound card to use digital out?


Digital connection should be always the Same quality, latency and quality wise. Unless you are using a creative soundblaster. There you get pre processing within the digital compressed toslink connection. Worst case latency.


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## bug (Mar 4, 2020)

[S] said:


> Digital connection should be always the Same quality, latency and quality wise. Unless you are using a creative soundblaster. There you get pre processing within the digital compressed toslink connection. Worst case latency.


So I'm right, there is no scenario where adding a sound card makes things better for the digital out.


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## [S] (Mar 4, 2020)

My recommendation is using a digital uncompressed connection (hdmi) and Decide on the avr side if you want additional audio processing or not.
Also i dont Think it makes any measureable difference how the dac is connected (pcie or not)


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## ador250 (Mar 4, 2020)

Any kind of software rendered or enhancement will create latency. The reason why Realtek default and Nvidia hdmi default don't have latency bcoz the sound processing (specially enhancements) is done by their own chip, something like hardware acceleration.


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## CityCultivator (Mar 4, 2020)

[S] said:


> Realtek direct Toslink compression and the decompression on the other side should be something like 40-60ms. As long as you dont use a creative soundblaster i think it might be ok.
> 
> By the way: Has your htib multichannel in?


Only has optical.
I use only for movie watching; not much of a gamer.


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## Buzzingbee (Apr 26, 2020)

Hello, I was also interested with audio latency on AV receiver. I do not use AV receiver for main video connection, so video latency is not important for me. Throughout two years I've been gathering rough experiment results so I thought I would like to share here:

*DENON AVR-1909* 
Analog in : +8ms
Analog in Direct: +0ms
Optical in (Stereo PCM) : +20ms
Optical in Direct: +2ms
HDMI in : +20ms
HDMI in Direct: +0ms

*Surround upmixer* (extra latency on top of connection type)
Dolby Pro Logic IIx: +6ms

*SONY DA5300ES* 
Analog in: +15ms
Analog direct: +0ms
Optical in (stereo PCM): +10ms
HDMI in: +10ms

*Surround upmixer* 
Dolby Pro Logic IIx: +6ms
Neural Surround (alternative to PLIIx): +20ms

*YAMAHA RX-A3040*
Analog in : +40ms
Analog in with Pure Direct : +0ms
Optical in (stereo PCM) : +70ms
HDMI: +20ms

*Surround upmixer*
Pro Logic IIx (PCM) : +20ms
Dolby Surround Upmixer (PCM) : +35ms
Pro Logic IIx (analog) +8ms
Dolby Surround Upmixer (analog) +20ms

Note:
- I included surround upmixer results as I mainly use it for 5.1 sound upmixed to 7.1.
- All digital connection types are connected with highest sample rate possible (192khz). I found out higher sample rate may improve audio latency, more details later below. Bit depth doesn't affect latency. 

I did not include Dolby Digital Live, DTS connect and Dolby Atmos yet as these latency are bad enough I tend to avoid all of it. I am guessing they add around extra 100-150ms. 

I can confirm Realtek does not add extra latency and I also made it as baseline.

Onto sound cards, I tried to turn off extra processing as much as I can. Here are the results of sound cards I tested:

Creative Sound Blaster Titanium analog output: +20ms
Creative Sound Blaster Omni analog output: +40ms

I tested Toslink with stereo PCM from Creative SB Titanium with no audio latency. I also recall briefly testing optical for Asus Xonar SE and recorded latency of +10ms. I don't have Omni anymore so I don't have result for optical connection. 

I then decided to test some ordinary desktop DACs (not gaming DAC). 

Topping D10: USB in, analog output: +0ms
Audioengine D1: USB in, analog output: +0ms
Cambridge Audio Dacmagic Plus: USB in, analog output: +5ms

Note:
- All DACs were tested with highest sample rate possible. 
- If available, buffer size were set to lowest possible. Not recommended for normal use as audio may pop and crackle. 

So it looked like desktop DACs with USB input are in the clear with latency (but more DACs need further testing to be absolutely sure). 

From then I decided to experiment something new just incase I get asked. I decided to find out latency differences when swapping sample rate. This is true for my AV receiver and it is noticeably different. Here is the result. 

*Yamaha RX-A3040*:
HDMI 192khz: +20ms
HDMI 96khz: +40ms
HDMI 48Khz: +50ms 

I reconnected my other AV receivers briefly for the same test and did comparison between 48khz and 192khz.

*Denon AVR-1909:* 3ms difference 
*Sony DA5300ES*: 0ms difference 

The latency difference on Denon is very insignificant it is barely any different. On the other hand, Yamaha's latency is significant enough that I had to set at 192khz just to improve audio latency. 

Next test, here is the result of swapping speaker layout using HDMI:

*YAMAHA RX-A3040*:
Stereo: +70ms
Quadraphonic: +70ms
Surround: +20ms
3.1 Surround: +20ms 
5.1 Surround: +20ms
7.1 Surround: +20ms

Latency of stereo output actually stumped me. 70ms would become unacceptable for gaming. But I also noticed when comparing from previous result, it is the same latency as Toslink PCM. So I was thinking stereo PCM have more latency than multichannel PCM. Curious, I retested my two other AV receivers. 

HDMI Stereo PCM
*Denon AVR-1909*: +20ms, same result as 5.1/7.1. 
*Sony DA5300ES*: +50ms, 40ms worse than 5.1/7.1. 

This got me more confused than ever. My Denon AV receiver is immune to extra latency when comparing stereo and multichannel PCM on HDMI, while Sony & Yamaha slapped off extra noticeable latency. For Sony receiver it is better off using optical for stereo PCM, and my Yamaha receiver is bad either way the best solution is analog connection. 

Going back on topic, I am able to come into similar conclusions as yours. 
- Multi-channel HDMI latency is low and indeed is the best option for multi channel. 
- Multi-channel analog input is a gamble depending on sound card. 
- Both Dolby Digital Live and DTS connect via Toslink have horrible latency and should be avoided. 
- Dolby Atmos in gaming may be also be as bad as DDL & DTS connect, but I don't have the numbers. If interested I can help test all bitstreaming results when I have spare time. 
- Higher sampling rate on PCM may improve audio latency. It did for my Yamaha AV receiver.
- AV receiver latency is too unpredictable overall.


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## [S] (Apr 27, 2020)

Thanks for sharing buzzingbee.
Greate that you had a chance to test more avrs. 
Everytime something gets converted (which affect 5.1 -> stereo or 192khz > ) produce latency - so two things seems to matter: get less things converted as possible, get things converted as fast as possible. As you said, the latter thing cant be known. 
I am wondering how you exactly measured your results?


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## Buzzingbee (Apr 27, 2020)

I also record the gap between mouse click and sound from speaker/headphones. One method I done was on sound properties I added any event (e.g. Close Program) with sound then clicking Test button. Another method was running Titanfall 2 tutorial. Both results are equal. 

There is mouse input lag range of +-8ms so it was tricky to find accurate number. 

I have tried to record Dolby Atmos in the past but I haven't yet find a game that is reliable. For example Borderlands 3 support Dolby Atmos, but it has its own input lag range that became overall +-15ms ish instead of usual +-8ms.

As for stereo on my AV receiver, it was directly stereo and has that odd +70ms total latency. I also tried to convert 7.1 to stereo on my AV receiver which gives extra +20ms delay (totalling 40ms). But yeah, avoid converting as much as possible for best latency results.


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## Nisargadatta (Dec 2, 2020)

Any idea if connecting headphones directly to pc monitor audio output (HDMI) would cause less delay vs onboard realtek audio from the motherboard?

I tested both with latencymon and didn't see any difference but I'm interested in your opinion.


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## deama (Aug 18, 2021)

[S] said:


> Thanks for sharing buzzingbee.
> Greate that you had a chance to test more avrs.
> Everytime something gets converted (which affect 5.1 -> stereo or 192khz > ) produce latency - so two things seems to matter: get less things converted as possible, get things converted as fast as possible. As you said, the latter thing cant be known.
> I am wondering how you exactly measured your results?





Buzzingbee said:


> Hello, I was also interested with audio latency on AV receiver. I do not use AV receiver for main video connection, so video latency is not important for me. Throughout two years I've been gathering rough experiment results so I thought I would like to share here:



I'm having some trouble and was wondering if someone could help me?
I've got my HDMI cable connected to my TV from my PC, but after measuring the audio delay, it says I've got about 90ms?! I've got all processing on the TV side disabled apart from Dolby Atmos, but if I disable Dolby Atmos it only gives me -9ms.
I have a usb DAC and when I measure the audio from it via headphones, it gives me roughly 73ms, which is kinda meh but at least it's lower.
If however, I measure with my onboard audio (just connect headphones to my motherboard 3.5mm jack), it gives me about 53ms! At least that is acceptable (my video latency is about 44ms).

However the onboard audio doesn't sound that good (I did some tests and I can notice a lower quality) than my TV's or my DAC's sound. Regardless though, it's not like I can use it anyway as my USB DAC only takes an input of USB, and my TV only takes an input from HDMI (I think, at least I can't see any jacks).
Does anyone have any clue how to fix this? I'd like to get at least about 50ms audio delay.

It's not the headphones, I've tried different types of headphones and they all give pretty much same results.

The way I do my tests is I open up audacity, generate a sine wave, then create a new track and record from the beginning. Essentially it playbacks the sinewave as fast as it can, whilst recording at the same time and I calculate the ms difference by simply looking at the difference from the beginning.

Any help?


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## Ferather (Aug 18, 2021)

I feel bad, I get instant response, feels like 2ms or less, its faster than my internet @ 4ms, both on Realtek SPDIF, and GPU HDMI, even GPU HDMI to SPDIF.
I do know some some enhancers, spatial enhancers and even faulty settings either in the driver or registry, can cause audio delay.


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## deama (Aug 18, 2021)

Ferather said:


> I feel bad, I get instant response, feels like 2ms or less, its faster than my internet @ 4ms, both on Realtek SPDIF, and GPU HDMI, even GPU HDMI to SPDIF.
> I do know some some enhancers, spatial enhancers and even faulty settings either in the driver or registry, can cause audio delay.


How'd you measure the delay?
But yeah, this upsets me, though I'm not sure it's my windows as I measured at a friend's place and it wasn't great either. I tried a fresh copy of windows too, but same problem.


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## Ferather (Aug 18, 2021)

I cant say I really measure it, I do it based on screen and sound timings when a popup and sound alert play at the same time.
You see the popup, adding enough delay is then noticeable when the popup is in front of the sound.


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## deama (Aug 18, 2021)

Ferather said:


> I cant say I really measure it, I do it based on screen and sound timings when a popup and sound alert play at the same time.
> You see the popup, adding enough delay is then noticeable when the popup is in front of the sound.


Ah, I see, so in my case I'd probably have something like 45ms difference or so. If I use my onboard audio then I can get it to about 5-10ms difference, but I don't think I can feed that to my DAC, nor can I feed it to my TV.

Any registry tweaks you can recommend for audio latency or any audio latency related thing?


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## Ferather (Aug 18, 2021)

No unfortunately, I can only recommend a different driver if there is that much of a difference, sorry.

Edit:

There is one thing you can try, and install E-APO, and set to pre-mix no post mix.
It can increase the response rate, see my post here to install it.

When I was building DTS DCH, at the start there was a lot of lag, E-APO fixed it.
It's not needed in that way now, only as a stereo upmixer.

Might work for you too.


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## deama (Aug 18, 2021)

Ferather said:


> No unfortunately, I can only recommend a different driver if there is that much of a difference, sorry.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


I'll try that.

I've also ordered some audio input to HDMI output (I think), I'll give that a go as I think I found a way to output audio from one HDMI to another's video, but I don't have an integrated GPU so I can't test it per say.

EDIT: Nope, the equalizer stuff didn't do anything, other than reducing my audio by about 6db.


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## Ferather (Aug 19, 2021)

That was the only trick I had, oh well sorry.


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## deama (Aug 26, 2021)

So I just took like some sort of audio to HDMI converter thing, plugged the RCA left/right from my computer to the device, then the HDMI out to the HDMI in on my TV and it worked!
However it only worked on that HDMI port, when I tried to figure out how to get it to work on my GPU HDMI, it wouldn't work...
I guess I can get some sort of HDMI splicer or something that combines the audio/video signals of 2 HDMIs, but that's probably going to add input lag, who knows...
I guess I'll have to give up on this, can't find any more info...


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

I Find SPDIF and HDMI is more responsive than analogue direct, I use my AMD GPU as my main sound device via HDMI extractor to SPDIF.
My Z906 doesn't have HDMI support, and SPDIF is always better than analogue direct, regardless of the programming.

With my extractor I can output 5.1 PCM to SPDIF, but my Z906 doesn't support more than 2 channel SPDIF PCM.
The strange part is, DTS Interactive is only 1.5mbps, and still sounds better than lossless analogue.


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> I Find SPDIF and HDMI is more responsive than analogue direct, I use my AMD GPU as my main sound device via HDMI extractor to SPDIF.
> My Z906 doesn't have HDMI support, and SPDIF is always better than analogue direct, regardless of the programming.
> 
> With my extractor I can output 5.1 PCM to SPDIF, but my Z906 doesn't support more than 2 channel SPDIF PCM.
> The strange part is, DTS Interactive is only 1.5mbps, and still sounds better than lossless analogue.


Hold on, can you explain your setup in more detail? As far as I can tell, you've got a HDMI from your AMD GPU linked to your monitor/tv and you use the sound from your monitor/tv or do you have a line going from your monitor/tv to your sound system and that's how you use it?
What is this SPDIF?


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

AMD GPU (HDMI) > Extractor > SPDIF > Z906 Receiver. SPDIF is what was before HDMI, its a digital interface.

Toslink vs Optical: What is The Difference? | Finddiffer.com (ignore the doesn't support lossless, it does)


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> AMD GPU (HDMI) > Extractor > SPDIF > Z906 Receiver. SPDIF is what was before HDMI, its a digital interface.
> 
> Toslink vs Optical: What is The Difference? | Finddiffer.com (ignore the doesn't support lossless, it does)


Is that the one that gives you low latency? What is this extractor you use?
Where do you get your video output then? Or do you have 2 HDMI cables running from your GPU, one to the Extractor, and another to the monitor/tv?


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

The HDMI portion passes through, here is the unit I have, ignore the typo 1GB its 18GB for video, HDMI audio is ~37mpbs, the older ARC is much lower.
I made my own driver for the unit, effectively overriding the EDID, I can send 5.1-7.1 down SPDIF, and also all formats.

You don't need an extractor to send lossless formats on SPDIF, just some settings in the media player.


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> The HDMI portion passes through, here is the unit I have, ignore the typo 1GB its 18GB for video, HDMI audio is ~37mpbs, the older ARC is much lower.
> I made my own driver for the unit, effectively overriding the EDID, I can send 5.1-7.1 down SPDIF, and also all formats.
> 
> You don't need an extractor to send lossless formats on SPDIF, just some settings in the media player.


Ah, I see, perhaps my problem then is my TV adding most of the latency, but hmm, I've got all sound enhancing stuff disabled.
Have you dabbled in soundbars? Any recommendations or any of them that you know of that have low latency and good audio quality?


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

deama said:


> perhaps my problem then is my TV adding most of the latency


That's possible, I have read ARC and eARC can be unstable, and you then require sync features. Never needed sync with Toslink, so, yes maybe its the TV.



deama said:


> Have you dabbled in soundbars? Any recommendations or any of them that you know of that have low latency and good audio quality?


I have not no, I am not looking to upgrade my Z906 at this time, not unless I see proper SPDIF support, the current standard is 20-125mbps (modules).
Most OEM's don't support SPDIF at its current standard, which I believe was the late 90's, they reference the 1983 standard (3.1mbps).

I am not at all interested in HDMI for audio purposes, only the programming and support it has.
The newest optical modules do 250mbps in duplex and can carry internet.


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> That's possible, I have read ARC and eARC can be unstable, and you then require sync features. Never needed sync with Toslink, so, yes maybe its the TV.


I have an eARC slot, that's my HDMI 2 slot, but I've got mine hooked up to my HDMI 1 slot as that's recommended for PC usage.
Would hooking it up to my eARC slot make it work better?


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

Pass, I don't know the answer, give it a go, why not?


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> Pass, I don't know the answer, give it a go, why not?


Hmm no, it's the same.


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

Any other devices you can try? PC Monitor?


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> Any other devices you can try? PC Monitor?


Well I've got a focusrite DAC, but that one doesn't take HDMI, testing on it ends up giving me about 75-80ms, so abouts 10-15ms lower, but I can't feed that to my TV.
I'm gonna have to figure something else out for this.


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## Ferather (Aug 27, 2021)

The USB out might be doable, you will need to do some research, but I believe HDMI has a USB mode, so maybe a converter or cable is needed?

Edit: HDMI Alt Mode USB Type-C


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## deama (Aug 27, 2021)

Ferather said:


> The USB out might be doable, you will need to do some research, but I believe HDMI has a USB mode, so maybe a converter or cable is needed?
> 
> Edit: HDMI Alt Mode USB Type-C


That's interesting, but for some reason my TV doesn't have audio IN, the only way I can give it audio is via HDMI for some reason, strange.


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## Ferather (Aug 31, 2021)

If I type 'test' into Windows run, if get an error box and audio, for me it feels like 0ms with DTS APO4 and DTS Interactive on the system, both SPDIF and HDMI.

Edit: I am going to go ahead and guess that even the red spectrum of light is faster than electricity down conductive circuits.
Optical (Toslink) cables are immune to normal interference, such as WiFi, TV - radio transmission, other.


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## deama (Aug 31, 2021)

Ferather said:


> If I type 'test' into Windows run, if get an error box and audio, for me it feels like 0ms with DTS APO4 and DTS Interactive on the system, both SPDIF and HDMI.
> 
> Edit: I am going to go ahead and guess that even the red spectrum of light is faster than electricity down conductive circuits.
> Optical (Toslink) cables are immune to normal interference, such as WiFi, TV - radio transmission, other.
> ...


If I type test it says windows can't find the program. I'm on windows 8.1, do you know the name of it specifically?


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## Ferather (Aug 31, 2021)

No the idea is for the pop-up (error), and audio, and any difference between the pop-up and delay in audio.
When I press enter or left click ok, the audio is instant, before the pop-up is fully drawn.


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## deama (Aug 31, 2021)

Ferather said:


> No the idea is for the pop-up (error), and audio, and any difference between the pop-up and delay in audio.
> When I press enter or left click ok, the audio is instant, before the pop-up is fully drawn.


The pop error is too unreliable, it starts off low volume then gradually increases to an error sound, too hard to detect in audio spectrum analysis.


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## Ferather (Sep 1, 2021)

You can change the sound, but fair enough, without equipment from A to B and set start points it not very measurable, the only quick method is a pop-up and sound which start at the same time.
Most of us wont notice a certain amount of delay, but if for example I opened an app that displayed a pop-up and the audio came 2 seconds later, I would certainly notice.

The eyes and ears method includes the full system, including any delay in the receiver, since you are listening to it.


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