# PC Hardware to Get Pricier Stateside as 25% Import Tariffs Take Effect Late-August



## btarunr (Aug 8, 2018)

The ongoing US-China trade-war is going to jack up prices of PC hardware and other electronics products made in China (PRC). This will also affect prices of products made by American companies that are manufactured in China. A new tranche of goods and services prescribes a 25 percent import tariff on "electronic integrated circuits: processors and controllers," "electronic integrated circuits: memories," "electronic integrated circuits: amplifiers," "electronic integrated circuits: other," which about covers all PC hardware. This tariff takes effect on August 23, 2018.

A component costing $100 at a US port, could be inflated to $125 before Federal and State taxes are applied, not to mention costs of the rest of the supply-chain, leading up to your retailer and their margins. Not all PC hardware is made in China. Goods imported from Taiwan (ROC), South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Thailand, Singapore, and Malaysia (the other known countries where PC hardware is manufactured), remains unchanged. China remains America's biggest source of electronics imports.



 

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## FreedomEclipse (Aug 8, 2018)

Well.... "If you mess with the bull, you get the horns"


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## randomUser (Aug 8, 2018)

So the prices will be comparabale to EU now. Maybe few % more.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.
I'm sorry but this is a political article and therefore I will answer with political views...

This is what happens when good people only partially pay attention to how shit actually works and then vote for the most obvious Con Artist in history.


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## Axaion (Aug 8, 2018)

Now you just need to add another 25% and youre close to EU

and another 25% and youre now in australia!


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 8, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.
> I'm sorry but this is a political article and therefore I will answer with political views...
> 
> This is what happens when good people only partially pay attention to how shit actually works and then vote for the most obvious Con Artist in history.


As opposed to voting in a corrupt war-hungry neo-con, the wife of the man that signed NAFTA, and a frankly unpleasant woman in poor health that blames everybody but herself for her problems after running on a platform of higher taxes and "everyone who doesnt like me is a horrible sub-human".

Not really a hard choice there.

There are US manufacturers left for things like NAND memory and RAM. PCB manufacturing is not the hardest thing to build or automate. If the prices of Chinese made stuff rises too high, PCB manufacturing will start back up in the US to feed demand. That is how an economy works. Europe, who is buddy buddy with Clinton, does this ALL THE TIME. MOST of the world has tariffs against other countries to protect manufacturing in their own country. It is how you compete with countries that pay slave wages to their employees. Given these countries already have tariffs or outright bans on american goods, it only makes sense to tariff them right back until either the manufacturing comes back to the US or the tariffs are dropped.

It's a far sight better then the bank bailouts that democrats thought would save the economy, and lead to 8 years of painfully slow recovery. Credit where credit is due, the economy is growing faster under trump then it ever did under obama.


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## Tsukiyomi91 (Aug 8, 2018)

good job to those who voted orange head & his lackeys. Enjoy your 25% import tariffs in electronic goods.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 8, 2018)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> good job to those who voted orange head & his lackeys. Enjoy your 25% import tariffs in electronic goods.


I'll take tariffs over a war with russia.


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## IceScreamer (Aug 8, 2018)

Are there any common PC components fully manufactured in the US, like without any need for importing?


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## Caring1 (Aug 8, 2018)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> good job to those who voted orange head & his lackeys. Enjoy your 25% import tariffs in electronic goods.


At least it's only imposed on goods from China, unlike here where all goods now have duties applied.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 8, 2018)

IceScreamer said:


> Are there any common PC components fully manufactured in the US, like without any need for importing?


I dont think so. Nothing is completely made in any one country these days. Micron still makes NAND memory and RAM chips in the US, but the PCB  assembly is still made in china. The capacitors on their SSDs are from either japan or taiwan IIRC.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 8, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.



I'm not sure raising or lowering the import taxes has any effect on that anyway. It's not like these electronics are built by US owned factories on Chinese ground , it's *their *plants , *their *workforce and *their *management , US companies are simple customers.


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## UrbanCamper (Aug 8, 2018)

So.....what country is the i9 9900k finished at? Malaysia? Obviously you know why I am asking this.

I think I may have just answered my own question. Dalian, Liaoning, China. Or it could be Ireland hopefully. 

Wait do we have electronic tariffs on Ireland?


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 8, 2018)

UrbanCamper said:


> So.....what country is the i9 9900k finished at? Malaysia? Obviously you know why I am asking this.


Yes. The puerto Rico plant has been shut down for a few years now. All intel chips are finished in Malaysia, Vietnam, or china. 

https://simplecore.intel.com/newsro...1/05/Global-Intel-Manufacturing_FactSheet.pdf


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## FreedomEclipse (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Yes. The puerto Rico plant has been shut down for a few years now. All intel chips are finished in Malaysia, Vietnam, or china.
> 
> https://simplecore.intel.com/newsro...1/05/Global-Intel-Manufacturing_FactSheet.pdf



Damn... I was looking for some T H I C C puerto rican overclockability with my CPU


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## btarunr (Aug 8, 2018)

IceScreamer said:


> Are there any common PC components fully manufactured in the US, like without any need for importing?



Buy Crucial SSDs. NAND flash made in Idaho, controller made in Taiwan, and final assembly in Mexico.


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## kastriot (Aug 8, 2018)

It's same everywhere, small people pay price for actions of greedy ones


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## sepheronx (Aug 8, 2018)

Axaion said:


> Now you just need to add another 25% and youre close to EU
> 
> and another 25% and youre now in australia!



add another 0.5% and you're now in Canada.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 8, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Damn... I was looking for some T H I C C puerto rican overclockability with my CPU


Nah man, Ivy bridge was the last arch that was puerto rican. 

My 3570k is one of the last ones. I'll sell it to you if you want it


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## Assimilator (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> and a frankly unpleasant woman in poor health



Well, your nick makes sense, since you obviously buy into conspiracy theory bullshit.


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## IceScreamer (Aug 8, 2018)

btarunr said:


> Buy Crucial SSDs. NAND flash made in Idaho, controller made in Taiwan, and final assembly in Mexico.


Oh I don't really buy components based on that, was just curious.


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## atomicus (Aug 8, 2018)

Assimilator said:


> Well, you nick makes sense, since you obviously buy into conspiracy theory bullshit.



Come on, that's really no 'conspiracy theory', she's clearly got some issues. And besides that, she's no less a crook and charlatan than Trump. There's enough dodgy and questionable history in both their pasts to raise more than a few eyebrows. The US was between a rock and a hard place and you simply went with the more entertaining option.


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## ssdpro (Aug 8, 2018)

Tsukiyomi91 said:


> good job to those who voted orange head & his lackeys. Enjoy your 25% import tariffs in electronic goods.


It was about family values. 5 kids from 3 different women while the bragging about the various ways he assaults women and peeps on teenage girls.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.
> I'm sorry but this is a political article and therefore I will answer with political views...
> 
> This is what happens when good people only partially pay attention to how shit actually works and then vote for the most obvious Con Artist in history.



Amen


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## AltCapwn (Aug 8, 2018)




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## R0H1T (Aug 8, 2018)

atomicus said:


> Come on, that's really no 'conspiracy theory', she's clearly got some issues. And besides that, *she's no less a crook and charlatan than Trump*. There's enough dodgy and questionable history in both their pasts to raise more than a few eyebrows. The US was between a rock and a hard place and you simply went with the *more entertaining option*.


Yeah I'm sure the dozen other women feel the same about drumpf, aside from Stormy of course who feared for her life & had to spill the beans on the orange one.
Private entertainment perhaps, unless one prefers golden showers out in the open?


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## neatfeatguy (Aug 8, 2018)

Don't worry guys! The tax break that came across from Trump will help offset the price hikes......well, not for me at least, I saw pretty much no tax break. What tax break I did get has already been dumped into the increased gas prices since the start of the year.

I wonder if the price hikes will be immediate (kind of like a few years ago when there was an explosion at a gas refinery somewhere up here in the northern MN/WI area and gas prices almost immediately went up $.50 once the news broke) or if it will trickle in.....?


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## INSTG8R (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> It's a far sight better then the bank bailouts that democrats thought would save the economy, and lead to 8 years of painfully slow recovery. Credit where credit is due, the economy is growing faster under trump then it ever did under obama.


These tariffs will tank any gains, get back to me in a year I can guarantee things won’t be so rosy


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## iO (Aug 8, 2018)

Great news, now everything could get more expensive if the manufacturers raise the prices to compensate for the lower sales in the US...


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## Arpeegee (Aug 8, 2018)

Kinda glad it's China, after working in manufacturing for 10+ years I can honestly say their stuff is the absolute cheapest garbage you can get.

As others have pointed out this will lead to a reshuffling of where we source our equipment. Obviously price will be a barrier but I rather spend a little extra on better quality than dealing with chintzy crap.

And no, I voted for neither and went 3rd party.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2018)

Arpeegee said:


> Kinda glad it's China, after working in manufacturing for 10+ years I can honestly say their stuff is the absolute cheapest garbage you can get.
> 
> As others have pointed out this will lead to a reshuffling of where we source our equipment. Obviously price will be a barrier but I rather spend a little extra on better quality than dealing with chintzy crap.
> 
> And no, I voted for neither and went 3rd party.



China makes the absolute cheapest garbage we buy in Western countries, except there is a nice brand sticker on it so we can fool ourselves its not from the same factory. And anyone who really thinks the US is suddenly going to get big on manufacturing again when there are still cheaper options is either wishful thinking or simply stupid. And if they really do, it is no more than a new economic crisis in the making, as one day all those jobs will disappear once more. Its short term illusion versus long term damage. Why repeat history?

It's already been proven that we prefer it cheap over 'some misplaced idea of quality'. China can make it all and it does. Most of the time even from the very same factory and by the same hands. Besides its not like the US is all big on high quality, quite the opposite. Just look at cars for a good example. There is a good reason they barely get exported and it really isn't just because they're too big and wasteful.


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## E-curbi (Aug 8, 2018)

Did someone say "golden showers" ?


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## Prince Valiant (Aug 8, 2018)

E-curbi said:


> Did someone say "golden showers" ?


Nothing like political arguments to bring out absurdity.


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## Assimilator (Aug 8, 2018)

atomicus said:


> Come on, that's really no 'conspiracy theory', she's clearly got some issues. And besides that, she's no less a crook and charlatan than Trump. There's enough dodgy and questionable history in both their pasts to raise more than a few eyebrows. The US was between a rock and a hard place and you simply went with the more entertaining option.



Glad to know I can also add you to the list of "obviously crazy people on TPU".


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## Slizzo (Aug 8, 2018)

I keep seeing people saying we voted for Trump. We didn't. The Electoral College voted for Trump. The popular vote went to Hillary.


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## DRDNA (Aug 8, 2018)

Well if the tariffs become an issue for USA business, I can bet they will be compensated via subsidies. The difference in these subsidies is they are to build the USA and not some dirty ass high level bankers and CEO's and in the end the USA is and always will be protected buy her buying power period and the USA indeed has the right to look out for her own interest even if the start of that hurts a little bit...but you don't have to believe me just watch and see it happen as we currently break all time records and no I will not provide links.


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## E-curbi (Aug 8, 2018)

Slizzo said:


> I keep seeing people saying we voted for Trump. We didn't. The Electoral College voted for Trump. The popular vote went to Hillary.



Well yea, but golden showers I mean come on, there's no comparison!   Gives me an idea for later tonight. Must prepare the girlfriend with Bordeaux.


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## metalfiber (Aug 8, 2018)

Maybe China will get teed off enough to call in the trillions of dollars we've borrowed from them. Then will have to give them Alaska or something to that effect.


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## DRDNA (Aug 8, 2018)

metalfiber said:


> Maybe China will get teed off enough to call in the trillions of dollars we've borrowed from them. Then will have to give them Alaska or something to that effect.


sadly it is just the opposite if China wants a chance at getting any back....this so called debt is a leverage tool as well to the USA's benefit.


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## Kinestron (Aug 8, 2018)

btarunr said:


> Buy Crucial SSDs. NAND flash made in Idaho, controller made in Taiwan, and final assembly in Mexico.


Interesting. I did not know that. Crucial is usually priced pretty good. Thanks for the tip.


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## Basard (Aug 8, 2018)

I'm fine with this.


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## Fx (Aug 8, 2018)

I wouldn't be surprised and would probably go as far to say that we would have gotten this tax increase regardless of how we voted. All politicians (especially career) have agendas to follow.

Just follow the money...


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## Arpeegee (Aug 8, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> China makes the absolute cheapest garbage we buy in Western countries, except there is a nice brand sticker on it so we can fool ourselves its not from the same factory. And anyone who really thinks the US is suddenly going to get big on manufacturing again when there are still cheaper options is either wishful thinking or simply stupid. And if they really do, it is no more than a new economic crisis in the making, as one day all those jobs will disappear once more. Its short term illusion versus long term damage. Why repeat history?
> 
> It's already been proven that we prefer it cheap over 'some misplaced idea of quality'. China can make it all and it does. Most of the time even from the very same factory and by the same hands. Besides its not like the US is all big on high quality, quite the opposite. Just look at cars for a good example. There is a good reason they barely get exported and it really isn't just because they're too big and wasteful.



You're right about that, I was meaning on a more basic manufacturing level like components or materials. I don't agree with the tarrifs at all but it also doesn't hurt me that the focus is on China.

I should build that new computer soon either way before another mining craze takes over and pushes video card prices past what tarrifs would add


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## Kinestron (Aug 8, 2018)

Fx said:


> I wouldn't be surprised and would probably go as far to say that we would have gotten this tax increase regardless of how we voted. All politicians (especially career) have agendas to follow.
> 
> Just follow the money...


Yep, last true cut in spending was waaayyy back in 1920s due to Harding and Coolidge which resulted in one of the most prosperous times in our history if you are familiar with the term "roaring 20s". Ever since then each president has grown the U.S. debt, even Reagan. *sigh*


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## repman244 (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> I'll take tariffs over a war with russia.



The way things are going you could get both! Any sane person would just leave others alone and not artificially escalate the tension.

Anyway, in my opinion if the prices rise in the US some of it will reflect on EU as well and I don't see the benefit of these taxes in the long run.


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## trog100 (Aug 8, 2018)

Kinestron said:


> Yep, last true cut in spending was waaayyy back in 1920s due to Harding and Coolidge which resulted in one of the most prosperous times in our history if you are familiar with the term "roaring 20s". Ever since then each president has grown the U.S. debt, even Reagan. *sigh*



and in theory at least one day that debt will have to be accounted for.. 

trog


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## R-T-B (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Not really a hard choice there.



You'd think...



TheinsanegamerN said:


> I'll take tariffs over a war with russia.



Like anyone with half a brain wants war with Russia....


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2018)

Arpeegee said:


> You're right about that, I was meaning on a more basic manufacturing level like components or materials. I don't agree with the tarrifs at all but it also doesn't hurt me that the focus is on China.
> 
> I should build that new computer soon either way before another mining craze takes over and pushes video card prices past what tarrifs would add



Materials such as.... high grade steel like the US can actually not even make right now and gets imported from Europe...? Honestly there isnt much of anything that has any sort of unique selling point right now. And starting that up again takes a lot of time, knowledge and specialized workforce. So the reality is that all they can "make" is cheap, high volume stuff that is simple snd straightforward. And guess what, everyone can do that locally.



repman244 said:


> The way things are going you could get both! Any sane person would just leave others alone and not artificially escalate the tension.
> 
> Anyway, in my opinion if the prices rise in the US some of it will reflect on EU as well and I don't see the benefit of these taxes in the long run.



War with Russia? That wont happen, they only stand to lose from military conflict and the balance of power is entirely against them. Their air force is worthless, they own one half operational Aircraft carrier and some submarines. The rest is near obsolete. Their new planes arent even a real threat.

Russias warfare is cyber, manipulation, and settling for new status quo like they tried in Georgia and Ukraine. And preferably away from too much attention. And the West just counters that with economic sanctions that constantly force Putin to action to keep his oligarch friends as allies. Meanwhile Russia is bleeding wealth for some insignificant patches of land and half successes on their covert ops.


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## TheGuruStud (Aug 8, 2018)

UrbanCamper said:


> So.....what country is the i9 9900k finished at? Malaysia? Obviously you know why I am asking this.
> 
> I think I may have just answered my own question. Dalian, Liaoning, China. Or it could be Ireland hopefully.
> 
> Wait do we have electronic tariffs on Ireland?



Buying a junky Dodge before a real supercar comes out for less, are ya? Good luck.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 8, 2018)




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## Metroid (Aug 8, 2018)

Finally you USA people will understand what import tax means but fear not, in many countries that tax is 100% or more.


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## Fx (Aug 8, 2018)

BAM. There it is.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

The latest news cracked me up.. a sob story about Element electronics being hit by the tariffs and closing down one of it's plants. And how this was some old fashioned American business everyone needed to weep for.

How I wish it was. All the stuff they make is Chinese. I feel for the local assembly people, but unfortunately, they're not what defines the company.


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## TheGuruStud (Aug 8, 2018)

The term  you're looking for is fascist/authoritarian state.
The US is already fascist and mostly authoritarian from both parties as they are the limbs of the elite. It's just selectively enforced, but it's only a matter of time. The laws are already in place to remove the so-called freedom.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

TheGuruStud said:


> The term  you're looking for is fascist/authoritarian state.
> The US is already fascist and mostly authoritarian from both parties as they are the limbs of the elite. It's just selectively enforced, but it's only a matter of time. The laws are already in place to remove the so-called freedom.



That's a bit dramatic. If it were truly fascist, you couldn't even say that.

It also depends on the State.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 8, 2018)

TheGuruStud said:


> The term  you're looking for is fascist/authoritarian state.
> The US is already fascist and mostly authoritarian from both parties as they are the limbs of the elite. It's just selectively enforced, but it's only a matter of time. The laws are already in place to remove the so-called freedom.


Actually not, communism is what is written there.



Metroid said:


> Finally you USA people will understand what import tax means but fear not, in many countries that tax is 100% or more.



Import taxes were there in the 80s...


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## the54thvoid (Aug 8, 2018)

I am so not getting involved in this shit show... but for the giggles.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/2...er-report-trump-bought-chinese-steel-aluminum

In other news, will this tariff affect i-phones (Foxconn) or is the assembly process for the boards. I don't think the tariff affects products with components made in China, just the finished articles?


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## deu (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> I'll take tariffs over a war with russia.



Dont know if you are joking but a world without both IS possible just not when the current president has the intellect of wet cardboard.


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## E-curbi (Aug 8, 2018)




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## TheGuruStud (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> That's a bit dramatic. If it were truly fascist, you couldn't even say that.
> 
> It also depends on the State.



Go ahead and leak/report/threaten info on a powerful person and see how long you last. They're not just thrown in holes without daylight, but also executed (ask the DC Madam or Michael Hastings, oh wait, they're dead).


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## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

deu said:


> Dont know if you are joking but a world without both IS possible just not when the current president has the intellect of wet cardboard.



I didn't vote for him, but anyone who jokes about his apparent mental deficiency is kind of burning themselves in the process. If he's such an idiot, how did he beat so many to get where he is? Wouldn't they be the bigger idiots? 



TheGuruStud said:


> Go ahead and leak/threaten info on a powerful person and see how long you last. They're not just thrown in holes without daylight, but also executed (ask the DC Madam, oh wait, she's dead).



I think that could be the case when you directly threaten their power like that (DC Madam). But that's a far cry from a systematic problem as fascism. It's just plain corruption.


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## deu (Aug 8, 2018)

the54thvoid said:


> I am so not getting involved in this shit show... but for the giggles.
> 
> http://thehill.com/policy/finance/2...er-report-trump-bought-chinese-steel-aluminum
> 
> In other news, will this tariff affect i-phones (Foxconn) or is the assembly process for the boards. I don't think the tariff affects products with components made in China, just the finished articles?



Since trump got elected shipping to the us have become really cumbersome//expensive for any country (at least from EU) since the us have high thoughts on how to threat the goods. My brother-in-law have had +3 month delays on containers to the us because they hate anything that has a "EU" on it.


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## TheGuruStud (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I didn't vote for him, but anyone who jokes about his apparent mental deficiency is kind of burning themselves in the process. If he's such an idiot, how did he beat so many to get where he is? Wouldn't they be the bigger idiots?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that could be the case when you directly threaten their power like that (DC Madam). But that's a far cry from a systematic problem as fascism. It's just plain corruption.



Espionage Act's extreme use ring any bells? Smoke and mirrors. Everything about this country is pretend.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

TheGuruStud said:


> Espionage Act's extreme use ring any bells? Smoke and mirrors. Everything about this country is pretend.



Smoke and mirrors? Those cases were of actual espionage. I didn't disapprove of all of them (Snowden), but no country in their right mind allows any of that.. fascist or not. Nothing about it is of any particular political system. And with the famous case of the Rosenbergs, that was at the height of a flood of actual Soviet spying. There are no smoke and mirrors about it. Just like the US sent spies to the USSR themselves.


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## RyneSmith (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> As opposed to voting in a corrupt war-hungry neo-con, the wife of the man that signed NAFTA, and a frankly unpleasant woman in poor health that blames everybody but herself for her problems after running on a platform of higher taxes and "everyone who doesnt like me is a horrible sub-human".
> 
> Not really a hard choice there.
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter how much people hated Hillary, Trump's administration is not responsible for any of the current economic upturn. Economic swings/policies take on average 2 years to go into effect and actually show results in the economy.

Let me know where we are in 2 years.

Edit: Grammar.

Edit 2: Trump could be credited for some of the upturn in the stock market, but that's really it. Saying that, he has shown to easily influence it negatively as well by tweeting about a company... so grain of salt.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

RyneSmith said:


> Doesn't matter how much people hated Hillary, Trump's administration is not responsible for any of the current economic upturn. Economic swings/policies take on average 2 years to go into effect and actually show results in the economy.
> 
> Let me know where we are in 2 years.
> 
> Edit: Grammar.



I don't think it matters if it's 2 years later or not, people have lost their composure with that guy. In their minds, he's capable of nothing productive and a giant idiot.. plus "Russia!" I didn't even see people lose their minds over Bush and Cheney this much.. and they were tangibly disastrous both economically and militarily. That says a lot... that even they got a bigger slide.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> View attachment 105057



Nice. Let's reflect a bit on my situation.

1. Healthcare: went from state controlled to privatized / in the hands of insurance companies, but with the state watching closely and preserving at least some semblance of the collective idea of insurance. Its worse now than it was when the state controlled it, and price of healthcare has risen  alongside it. The pressure is on in this line of work too, in a way it wasn't before. Either way, the citizen is still guaranteed of healthcare, back then and today. So, check!

2. Poverty: even in my relatively and absolutely rich country, there is poverty, as in, people who earn too little to make ends meet. We do however have a complete and pretty good social welfare system and even on the bottom end of the ladder, you can/should be able to not starve and have a roof over your head (been there, done that...). But if you choose to avoid that system or try to commit fraud, yes, poverty happens. And even when not doing that, the risk is always there when bad decisions are made. Relation to the degree of control? Just about zero, quite the opposite in fact. Poor people remove themselves from society and from 'control' much rather than the opposite.

3. Debt: national debts have been pushed back well within the EU guidelines over here. Over the entire history of my country, *there is no documented or noticeable relation* between debt and the degree of control over people. Besides, citizens are free to leave the country as they choose.

4. Gun control: our lack of weapons among citizens provides us with one of the safest societies in the world. Check the numbers.

5. Welfare: Check!

6. Education: in fact the lack of education is what spawns conflict, warfare, and ultimately leads to people being manipulated - and manipulation is the ultimate form of control. It is precisely the _lack of knowledge_ and inability to check sources for the information we find, that causes much of the turmoil of today. Go look at third world countries and their state of education for proof. And while you're at it, compare the degree of freedom those people really have...

7. Religion: again, there is no documented relation between* lack of religion* and control over people. In fact, the* precise opposite is true*: there are MANY instances of documented relation between religious movements and control over people. In fact its one of the very enemies the US wants to fight so badly, called 'terrorists'. Those are people driven by religious ideals. What about their freedom, in fact? Oh yeah - they're free to blow themselves up in name of a man in the sky. Gotta love the options there! And even in the US, there is a strong Christian/pro-life movement that actively fights abortion and effectively _limits_ the freedom of people to do what they want on very important matters.

8. Class Warfare: a very real issue that all societies, regardless of absence or presence of the above seven points, have to deal with. Its a given that the rich get richer and the gap widens as time passes. Again, very well documented, but not directly related to control, but rather a result of the situation 'as is' - and as it has always been. I believe our best answer to that is to create a society of 'chances', and providing as equal as possible chance for everyone to aspire to something they feel benefits them the most. And isn't that one of the fundamental ideals of Americans?

So... really? I think what you linked is complete and utter BS that has no support whatsoever in any kind of research or historical fact. When one of those points is true, a number of others are evidently not. Its a theory so weak, the fact it says 'idiots' on top really says more about that piece than anything else.

But I get the 'gist' of what it tries to convey: its a theory older than the guy you read about though. The Romans knew this already: Bread and Games. Keep your citizens entertained, keep them fed and busy, and you have control. What the article fails to note however is that we ALL want a certain degree of control, because it prevents our neighbours from bashing our heads in. The US and its citizens are trying to preserve a failed idea of freedom that was never going to work in a globalized world. Its an idea of freedom that reminds of tribal culture, and we all know those days are long gone. Besides, its exactly that tribal culture we don't fancy a whole lot, because more than freedom, many of us like 'certainties' and 'comfort'. I don't know, but that just sounds like progress and a civilized world to me.

The disconnect here, is that some mistake socialism for communism. Communism is a radical theory, socialism is a very good one _alongside _ other ideologies. As it is with many things in life, what we really need is _balance._


----------



## Readlight (Aug 8, 2018)

Then there will be less good persons who will be possible to work as much he consumes and higher prices whit the worst quality components like food now in supermarkets.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

The less I can get involved and think about government, the better. I don't care which spectrum politics are on... I'm always trying to maximize ways for it to be even less involved in my life. I don't get people who like it so much. Even when it's arguably good and provides more comfort, I still simply want to be left the hell alone. I don't understand anyone who actually LIKES the relationship... or even cheers for it.

This probably, of course, actually puts me on a political spectrum myself: That of the libertarian/anarchist. But I'd rather not be called that either.

My 2c.


----------



## LFaWolf (Aug 8, 2018)

the54thvoid said:


> I am so not getting involved in this shit show... but for the giggles.
> 
> http://thehill.com/policy/finance/2...er-report-trump-bought-chinese-steel-aluminum
> 
> In other news, will this tariff affect i-phones (Foxconn) or is the assembly process for the boards. I don't think the tariff affects products with components made in China, just the finished articles?



iPhones are supposedly or rumored to be exempt from tariff - https://www.fastcompany.com/4058684...d-apple-it-would-not-place-tariffs-on-iphones


----------



## RyneSmith (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I don't think it matters if it's 2 years later or not, people have lost their composure with that guy. In their minds, he's capable of nothing productive and a giant idiot.. plus "Russia!" I didn't even see people lose their minds over Bush and Cheney this much.. and they were tangibly disastrous both economically and militarily. That says a lot... that even they got a bigger slide.



Unfortunately people are the reason why this happened is the sad thing. In the end, we will see what happens. Can't be undone at the present moment, and I'm not sure it will be in the future.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> iPhones are supposedly or rumored to be exempt from tariff - https://www.fastcompany.com/4058684...d-apple-it-would-not-place-tariffs-on-iphones



Apple is also building more facilities in the States. So it's a win-win for them, I guess.


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> The less I can get involved and think about government, the better. I don't care which spectrum politics are on... I'm always trying to maximize ways for it to be even less involved in my life. I don't get people who like it so much. Even when it's arguably good and provides more comfort, I still simply want to be left the hell alone. I don't understand anyone who actually LIKES the relationship... or even cheers for it.
> 
> This probably, of course, actually puts me on a political spectrum myself: That of the libertarian/anarchist. But I'd rather not be called that either.
> 
> My 2c.



That's the thing, everything is politics and politics is everything. Its a thread we can follow to convince ourselves what is a good idea and what is not. And then to pursue that idea. And we shape that like a system so people can actually represent those ideas. The problem is, no system is perfect.



Bones said:


> Which is still more intellect than the last one had.....



People forget there are many kinds of intellect


----------



## Bones (Aug 8, 2018)

deu said:


> Dont know if you are joking but a world without both IS possible just not when the current president has the intellect of wet cardboard.


Which is still more intellect than the last one had.....


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> That's the thing, everything is politics and politics is everything. Its a thread we can follow to convince ourselves what is a good idea and what is not. And then to pursue that idea. And we shape that like a system so people can actually represent those ideas. The problem is, no system is perfect.



It's not everything to me. I hope it won't be for you eventually.

Of course, I'm a near hermit. What do I know?


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> It's not everything to me. I hope it won't be for you eventually.
> 
> Of course, I'm a near hermit. What do I know?



I know what you're saying, but if you really think about it, one could find ways to make politics over your specific lifestyle to 'threaten' it. And the effect of that would be a change - whatever that might be - in your stance on certain things. It would influence you. For example, increasing the price of things you really like the most; or banning it altogether. (boom - ontopic!)


----------



## Dave65 (Aug 8, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.
> I'm sorry but this is a political article and therefore I will answer with political views...
> 
> This is what happens when good people only partially pay attention to how shit actually works and then vote for the most obvious Con Artist in history.



VERY VERY well said



TheinsanegamerN said:


> I'll take tariffs over a war with russia.



Had Obama done what Trump has done you right wingers would have busted a vessel to get him out of office..Comrade!


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

Dave65 said:


> VERY VERY well said
> 
> 
> 
> Had Obama done what Trump has done you right wingers would have busted a vessel to get him out of office..Comrade!



I think people put a lot of hope in Obama. I voted for him twice myself. Still a massive disappointment.

In any case, unemployment is pretty low. Not sure how it's related to manufacturing though.

And Japan just took back the 2nd spot in stock market value. China isn't doing as well as the media would like apparently.


----------



## Vya Domus (Aug 8, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Like anyone with half a brain wants war with Russia....



Well , traditional wars are obsolete anyway. You still see a few skirmishes here and there but other than that wars are mostly a thing of the past , we are more sophisticated now. Not saying large scale conflicts are never going to happen but it will probably take a little more than a tax increase to wage a world war.


----------



## mcraygsx (Aug 8, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> I'll take tariffs over a war with russia.



That is not a realistic expectation. Here I was under the impression that you would have realized that this TUG of war state exists to keep fear of war alive. This benefits both nations mutually when it come to arms race and sale to rest of the world. This state of fear is also used a leverage when it comes to weapon research and development.  Both USA and Russian are leading suppliers of WMD; excuse my language military weapons to countries around the world.

Neither one of these nations are not willing to give up $25+ billion worth of arms sale.

Back to the POST, this means less frequent hardware upgrades. Prices of RAM and GFX cards are already hiked up and I can only speculate how this will affect consumer hardware or my next GPU upgrade. This reminds of cryptocurrency scenario all over again.


----------



## Bones (Aug 8, 2018)

Dave65 said:


> Had Obama done what Trump has done you right wingers would have busted a vessel to get him out of office..Comrade!



As if the commicrats aren't losing it trying get him out now..... 

And the cigar stuffer - He did it while in office - Literally.... Lied about it and is being called a hero for doing it yet the left has gone nuts over something that might have happened in someone's private life years ago well before they were even a candidate, much less in office period.  At least if he did he had the decency to do it on his own dime and not to get it all under the desk or all over the Oval Office itself. 
I mean those cigars weren't free and I can promise you he didn't buy them, we did.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.

With all the damage done in the previous years it's no wonder there's going to be alot of "Pain" to get things back to a decent state here concerning the economy. 
True - Blame can be laid on BOTH sides, not just one or the other for it but this guy is the first that's produced any tangible results in recent memory. 

Trade wars aren't something that was invented yesterday, they've been going on all through history itself, we're just experiencing the latest version of it and yes, things do get harder to find and buy as a result, that too being nothing new.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Well , traditional wars are obsolete anyway. You still see a few skirmishes here and there but other than that wars are mostly a thing of the past , we are more sophisticated now. Not saying large scale conflicts are never going to happen but it will probably take a little more than a tax increase to wage a world war.



Those skirmishes aren't so small. Everything in the Middle East for the past decade (and more) are proxy wars between much larger powers. And Syria alone has suffered at least 500,000 deaths and a lot of refugees. It might not be world war death toll numbers, but those world wars were the exception rather than the rule. This is still tragic by any century of war's standards.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 8, 2018)

Bones said:


> And the cigar stuffer - He did it while in office - Literally....



Yes, Clinton lied in office.  Trump does that in office so much it's become an almost daily occurance.  And you laugh that the "commicrats" (who in europe would be considered conservative, btw) are skeptical of him?



Vya Domus said:


> Well , traditional wars are obsolete anyway. You still see a few skirmishes here and there but other than that wars are mostly a thing of the past , we are more sophisticated now. Not saying large scale conflicts are never going to happen but it will probably take a little more than a tax increase to wage a world war.



The person I was quoting was literally saying hillary would've skipped the tatiffs but somehow caused a war with Russia.  This is an absolutely ludicrous idea promoted only by die-hard Trump supporters.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Yes, he lied in office.  Trump does that in office so much it's become an almost daily occurance.  And you laugh that the "commicrats" (who in europe would be considered conservative, btw) are skeptical of him?



All politicians lie. Clinton's fault was lying under oath. No one said anything about lying in "office".

I personally didn't care though. Special prosecutors are too relentless to be a good thing, no matter who is being investigated.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> No one said anything about lying in "office".



The person I quoted did.  I mean I'm assuming he's referencing the "clinton lying about his blowjob" scandal.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> The person I quoted did.



Oops. My bad. Just jumped in that line of conversation. I thought it just meant "office" in general/on the national news level. Because that wasn't what got Clinton in trouble. It'd be even more ridiculous than it already was, if that was the case.


----------



## Bones (Aug 8, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Yes, Clinton lied in office.  Trump does that in office so much it's become an almost daily occurance.  And you laugh that the "commicrats" (who in europe would be considered conservative, btw) are skeptical of him?



You think Clinton didn't lie everyday in and out of the office?
C'mon. 
They all do.

We could go on but no need and frankly it woudn't serve any use since it can be done by both sides all day long yet nothing changes. 

Do know Politics and Prostitution are the two oldest, dirtiest professions in the world with the same basic thing going on.... It's just a matter of who's doing what to whom and who's getting paid over it that determines the difference between them.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 8, 2018)

mcraygsx said:


> Destroy someone's home and them whine about refugee problem in Europe, all hypocrisy I say. Then make them slaves by lending them infinite amount of loan and arm deals.
> 
> “Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason.”
> 
> ...



Heh.. it pretty much became political right off the bat.

I would hope everyone would at least like to see China lose though. The leaders/politicians of various countries sold their citizens out to give China the strength it has now. All under some deluded geopolitical model that "manufacturing" is just an early stage in a nation's development, where it's "meant" to be shoved off eventually, and said nation "graduates" to just focusing on Service. This is a lie. 

What's funny is this was a product of 80s thinking (Thatcher/Reagan especially)… it'd be incredibly ironic if the guy who spearheads the reversal is Mr. 80s himself: Donald Trump.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2018)

Worst. Time. Ever. For a computer to die. :C

Was wanting to put off new computer purchase until at least Q4 but because of this, it looks like my deadline moves up to August 23.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 8, 2018)

Bones said:


> You think Clinton didn't lie everyday in and out of the office?
> C'mon.
> They all do.



Probably.  But when you do it moronically daily on TWITTER you become a national liability far beyond Clinton-grade.

Say what you will about either Clinton, they both understood the value of shutting up.



mcraygsx said:


> I think this thread is taking a wrong turn and is becoming too political.



Inevitable from the moment this thread was penned by it's very nature IMO.



Bones said:


> Do know Politics and Prostitution are the two oldest, dirtiest professions in the world with the same basic thing going on.... It's just a matter of who's doing what to whom and who's getting paid over it that determines the difference between them.



You know what?  I agree with that.  It just has absolutely no relevance to why Trump is outright bad for our image, and honestly, our nation.  It's all because he doesn't know when to shut up.


----------



## Dave65 (Aug 8, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I think people put a lot of hope in Obama. I voted for him twice myself. Still a massive disappointment.
> 
> In any case, unemployment is pretty low. Not sure how it's related to manufacturing though.
> 
> And Japan just took back the 2nd spot in stock market value. China isn't doing as well as the media would like apparently.



Agreed, I voted for him twice and yes, disappointed.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Aug 8, 2018)

USA gets  a taste or real world prices. Rest of the world subsidies the USA anyway. I hate China as much as anyone, but Trump's moronic approach that hurts the US more than it hurts China is hilarious. "I'll teach China a lesson, when I destroy the US economy China won't be selling us any goods and then I will have fixed our trade imbalance. Told you I was a genius". 

You couldn't make this crap up


----------



## Bones (Aug 8, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Probably.  But when you do it moronically daily on TWITTER you become a national liability far beyond Clinton-grade.
> 
> Say what you will about either Clinton, they both understood the value of shutting up.


Can't really disagree with this, I too would rather him take it down a notch. 
But again he's not one to back down, at least he has that.



R-T-B said:


> Inevitable from the moment this thread was penned by it's very nature IMO.


Again I have to agree, this was a political thread right from the start.



R-T-B said:


> You know what?  I agree with that.  It just has absolutely no relevance to why Trump is outright bad for our image, and honestly, our nation.  It's all because he doesn't know when to shut up.


Honestly I'd rather have someone that at least backs up what they say than someone that flip-flops. 
That does create a bad image, one of weakness in a world where everyone else is out to get what they can - Even YOU if possible. 
It's just human nature to do so as history has proven time and time again. 



Minus Infinity said:


> USA gets a taste or real world prices. Rest of the world subsidies the USA anyway. I hate China as much as anyone, but Trump's moronic approach that hurts the US more than it hurts China is hilarious. "I'll teach China a lesson, when I destroy the US economy China won't be selling us any goods and then I will have fixed our trade imbalance. Told you I was a genius".
> 
> You couldn't make this crap up


The deal Carter signed with China was the catalyst that started this mess, the US was doing well enough before we became entangled with China trade-wise - At least Trump is trying to fix it so maybe it won't be so bad later but it's bad enough now there is going to be alot of pain and the longer you wait, the more it's gonna hurt. 

Annnnnd..... I'm done with this thread.


----------



## SaltyFish (Aug 8, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> T H I C C puerto rican overclockability


Holy crap, I had to do a double take there! I thought I had wandered into Reddit or 4chan; I don't think I've ever seen "T H I C C" used on TPU.

As for the article, I think if sales in the US are high enough, hardware manufacturing could theoretically be increased in the other existing manufacturing countries (which does not include the US). The factories in China should be safe due to the demand from the rest of the world. But I'm pretty sure US PC hardware sales numbers are nowhere near high enough justify such a thing (not to mention the startup costs and delay). Other than that, this is just an obvious and expected outcome of the US-China trade war. Sucks to those affected, but it shouldn't be a major shock since it's not something that came out of nowhere.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2018)

I wouldn't be so sure other parts of the world are safe.  Intel especially has a lot of intermediary steps in chip production that can get hit by the tariffs so to get a chip anywhere might have those tariffs baked in at least once, if not several times over.


Short term, the tariffs just suck.  Long term, that's when things start changing.  The hope is that China-US solve their trade war in the short term so the long term consequences don't start going into effect.


----------



## Midland Dog (Aug 8, 2018)

suck a doodle america, now yous know how it feels to buy computer hardware in the land down under


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 8, 2018)

Like I said, your hardware may be impacted too.  Computers aren't made start to finish in one country.  Components travel all over Asia, Europe, and North America before final assembly (usually China) then travel again to wholesalers.

That doesn't even take into consideration a massive reduction in overall sales.  Businesses/governments will put off purchases until they have no choice.  We could see new PC sales plummet and a surge in the used market.  Computer hardware businesses could be driven under from the sudden shift.

The entire tech industry grew up in an era where it was virtually free of tariffs and trade restrictions which is why the industry is global.  This pressure, if it remains for more than a year, is going to require businesses to rethink the global market.  Instead of a few large fabs, the future may be full of lots of micro fabs, for example.


----------



## John Naylor (Aug 9, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.
> I'm sorry but this is a political article and therefore I will answer with political views...
> 
> This is what happens when good people only partially pay attention to how shit actually works and then vote for the most obvious Con Artist in history.



Since the tariffs went into effect, the trade imbalance with China has increased 13% and the national debt along with it.  The debt is now up 10% since Jan 01 2017.  Trade wise, things haven't been this bad since GW Bush.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 9, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> I'm sure this will bring all those jobs back to the USA....said nobody with any common sense.
> I'm sorry but this is a political article and therefore I will answer with political views...
> 
> This is what happens when good people only partially pay attention to how shit actually works and then vote for the most obvious Con Artist in history.


Actually, this is what happens when a country stops letting another country shove a broom up their backside.  Too long U.S. leaders have given in to China until the trade imbalance was unsustainable.

Thing is, the Chinese will buckle first. They need to eat.


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> Actually, this is what happens when a country stops letting another country shove a broom up their backside.  Too long U.S. leaders have given in to China until the trade imbalance was unsustainable.
> 
> Thing is, the Chinese will buckle first. They need to eat.


You hope they do. The rest of the world will happily accept their goods and prices regardless of the US stance. China doesn’t “need” America. I don’t see a huge clamouring for American made goods either.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Aug 9, 2018)

That's OK. Still long way to go until the callous tarrifs we have here in EU, close to 50%, *without *counting the VAT taxes and other abominations.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> They need to eat.


This: when the middle class grows, it's need for agricultural products (especially meat) grows with it.  USA could fill that need.  China is responding to US tariffs by putting tariffs on the one thing they're going to feel the most.  Should put into context the relationship US and China has: luxury goods versus necessities.


----------



## sweet (Aug 9, 2018)

Dave65 said:


> VERY VERY well said
> 
> 
> 
> Had Obama done what Trump has done you right wingers would have busted a vessel to get him out of office..Comrade!



Obama couldn't done what Trump did: 4.1% GDP growth, thousands new jobs in industry sector. Obama, as well as many people with "common sense" mocked Trump, while that "Con Artist" delivered.

https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-bashes-trumps-jobs-proposal-politics-election-campaign-2016-6

http://fortune.com/2018/07/27/us-gdp-growth-trump/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-hover-at-record-highs-in-june-idUSKBN1KS1S5


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

That was because of the repatriation of over a trillion dollars in corporate money sitting overseas that accumulated since the last corporate tax holiday (under GWB): a temporary surge. It was also caused by economic activity to preempt the tariffs.  That surge is abruptly ending because of the trade war.  Trump was elected to do both (level the playing field with trade partners and repatriate funds).  Now he has a less than a year to get a "good deal" with them (including China).  The longer these tariffs drag on, the more harm they do.


----------



## AnarchoPrimitiv (Aug 9, 2018)

Here, this sums up American Politics:
Link: 










TheGuruStud said:


> The term  you're looking for is fascist/authoritarian state.
> The US is already fascist and mostly authoritarian from both parties as they are the limbs of the elite. It's just selectively enforced, but it's only a matter of time. The laws are already in place to remove the so-called freedom.



Wow, finally someone here gets it....it's both hilarious and disappointing when I witness conservatives thinking liberals are so different and vice versa...the worst is when conservatives think anyone that criticizes trump is automatically liberal or vice versa as if the entire spectrum of political thought only exists in the form of conservative vs. liberal...in reality and with respect to the entire spectrum of political thought, American Conservatives and liberals are both basically centrists with one leaning a millimeter to the right and the other leaning a millimeter to the left....Republicans and Democrats are in effect two wings of the SAME, PRO-Corporate, PRO-State, Pro-Elite party....they differ on about 5% of these issues, namely petty social issues that don't have that much effect on day to day life (though I do completely disagree with the tendency of conservatives to want to control the personal actions of individuals even when those actions have absolutely no effect on anyone else, including those conservatives e.g. abortion, drug use, sex, etc....I seriously think that anyone who cares about the actions of others when they have no effect on their own life is psychologically ill and/or distrurbed), and agree on 95% of the other issues, namely economic issues which can be boiled down to:  The "Economy" being the most important thing in reality and to support the economy at the cost of people, freedom, the environment and basically everything else in existence. 

Basically, regardless of who runs and who anyone votes for, Capitalism wins everytime at the polls, and I say that not as an anti-capitalist, but simply as an objective observer.  Since its inception, this country was designed to subordinate the will of the people, to the will of the elite, and James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and the rest of the federalist cronies were outright explicit about that, hell, John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court said: "_Those who own the country_ ought to _govern_ it."  Alexander Hamilton simply didn’t believe in democracy, which he labeled an American “disease.” He fought—with military force—any model of organizing the American political economy that might promote egalitarian politics. He was an authoritarian, and proud of it.  most of Hamilton’s legacy is astonishingly counter-democratic. His central role in founding both the financial infrastructure of Wall Street and a nascent military establishment (which supplanted the colonial system of locally controlled democratic militias) was rooted in his self-appointed crusade to undermine the ability of ordinary Americans to govern themselves.

Or you can look at the literally countless examples of the government supressing (many times violently with murder) any attempt of the people to better their lives, just look at all the incredibly violent (in which the government was the cause of the violence) strikes in the 19th and 20th centuries, which literally earns American Government as the most violent strike breaker of all industrialized countries in all of history.  For instance, the general strike in San Francisco of 1934, which developed out of a longshoremen’s strike, led to running battles with the police, National Guardsmen setting up machine gun nests and tanks for strike suppression, and a number of deaths.  The massive strikes in the period of 1919-1922, involving more than one million workers in industries like railroads, steel, and mining, were met with enormous violence. One of the most famous is the coal mining wars, which culminated in the Battle for Blair Mountain. It pitted armed and organized miners against a private militia, federal troops, bombing runs by employer-hired aircraft, and some of the first post-war uses of military planes. Hundreds of miners died in the battles.  During the Ludlow Massacre, National Guardsmen mounted a machine gun on a train, and mowed down strikers and their families living in tents. During the massive Pullman Strike of 1894, during which Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs was arrested, hundreds of thousands of workers went on strike, and the attorney general carpeted every state from Illinois to California with injunctions and martial law. Federal troops aided local police and private guards to suppress the strike.  We can tell similar stories for the suppression of the Great Strike of 1877, which included a general strike in St. Louis; for the strike wave of 1886; for the Lawrence strike of 1912; for the Little Steel Strike, Harland County strikes, the Auto-Lite Strike, the Minneapolis strike, and the textile strikes of the 1930s, and so on.  *These were workers simply asking for an 8 hour day and some safety precautions, and they were arbitrarily murdered because that would hurt the profit margin of these elites and their corporations...and both Democrats and Republicans have that blood all over their hands.*  So don't fool yourselves....if you're not in the top 1% of the wealthy, this country and all its politicians couldn't care less about you.


Basically, the comedian bill hicks summed this up years ago:

[Acting as a typical, ignorant American Voter]: "I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs!"
-"No, I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking..."
"HEY, wait a minute...there's one guy holding up both Puppets....!"
"SHUT UP, Go back to sleep America"


----------



## DRDNA (Aug 9, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> You hope they do. The rest of the world will happily accept their goods and prices regardless of the US stance. China doesn’t “need” America. I don’t see a huge clamouring for American made goods either.


and still with out the USA's buying power your lil country of Noraway and even all of the UK will not save any country the USA goes to trade war with including China, except for Russia who can survive anything and thats why they are about to be our great ally and together a force that none can touch. watch and see because nobody is going to stop this train.And when this is history I get to say I told you so


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

DRDNA said:


> and still with out the USA's buying power your lil country of Noraway and even all of the UK will not save any country the USA goes to trade war with including China, except for Russia who can survive anything and thats why they are about to be our great ally and together a force that none can touch. watch and see because nobody is going to stop this train.And when this is history I get to say I told you so


Did you get your “Id rather be Red than a Democrat” shirt yet comrade? Norway doesn’t need the US or the EU but you wouldn’t know that Norway has trillions in oil money enough that every citizen get a million and there’d still be billions left over. My free healthcare, 5 weeks paid vacation and my guaranteed pension means I’m doing just fine thanks. I’m also Canadian we don’t have it bad  there either. Canada softballed  on you on tarrifs.  Put lumber and power on the list and Canada could hurt you very badly so beat your chest all you like you’ll soon find yourself very alone if this trade war really comes to blows


----------



## DRDNA (Aug 9, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> Did you get your “Id rather be Red than a Democrat” shirt yet comrade? Norway doesn’t need the US or the EU but you wouldn’t know that Norway has trillions in oil money enough that every citizen get a million and there’d still be billions left over. My free healthcare, 5 weeks paid vacation and my guaranteed pension means I’m doing just fine thanks. I’m also Canadian we don’t have it bad  there either. Canada softballed  on you on tarrifs.  Put lumber and power on the list and Canada could hurt you very badly so beat your chest all you like you’ll soon find yourself very alone if this trade war really comes to blows


Canada would have no economy with out the USA, now your just being silly.


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

DRDNA said:


> Canada would have no economy with out the USA, now your just being silly.


You keep telling yourself that.  Your assumed self importance and that attitude is what’s getting you into this trade war mess in the first place. We’ll talk a year from now when these tariffs have tanked your economy, employment and inflation has sky rocketed, that’s if it hasn’t taken your smug self down wth it.


----------



## Nkd (Aug 9, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> As opposed to voting in a corrupt war-hungry neo-con, the wife of the man that signed NAFTA, and a frankly unpleasant woman in poor health that blames everybody but herself for her problems after running on a platform of higher taxes and "everyone who doesnt like me is a horrible sub-human".
> 
> Not really a hard choice there.
> 
> ...




good f'in luck with manufacturing jobs coming back to america. Consumer will pay high. Companies who do assembly are already closing shop.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 9, 2018)

DRDNA said:


> and still with out the USA's buying power your lil country of Noraway and even all of the UK will not save any country the USA goes to trade war with including China, except for Russia who can survive anything and thats why they are about to be our great ally and together a force that none can touch. watch and see because nobody is going to stop this train.And when this is history I get to say I told you so





INSTG8R said:


> Did you get your “Id rather be Red than a Democrat” shirt yet comrade? Norway doesn’t need the US or the EU but you wouldn’t know that Norway has trillions in oil money enough that every citizen get a million and there’d still be billions left over. My free healthcare, 5 weeks paid vacation and my guaranteed pension means I’m doing just fine thanks. I’m also Canadian we don’t have it bad  there either. Canada softballed  on you on tarrifs.  Put lumber and power on the list and Canada could hurt you very badly so beat your chest all you like you’ll soon find yourself very alone if this trade war really comes to blows



Both of you, come on.  You both act like the other has some kind of control over any of this.  Nobody should be insulting people over this.   

And @INSTG8R its the democrats that are giving their already lefty platform and control over their party to outright socialists.  So, yeah, the term “comrade” would apply to them, not Republicans.  If that is a jab at Trump, jab away, because he is not Republican.  He is an Independant who ran as a Republican because this country simply is not set up for a 3rd party or Independant.


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> Both of you, come on.  You both act like the other has some kind of control over any of this.  Nobody should be insulting people over this.
> 
> And @INSTG8R its the democrats that are giving their already lefty platform and control over their party to outright socialists.  So, yeah, the term “comrade” would apply to them, not Republicans.  If that is a jab at Trump, jab away, because he is not Republican.  He is an Independant who ran as a Republican because this country simply is not set up for a 3rd party or Independant.


Am I making it up? 2 Yahoos at the last trump rally spotted in this oh so tasteful attire...Also socialism is how MOST of the world is successful, it’s America and it’s capitalism/conservatism  that’s put you so low on the list of countries in almost everything but incarceration and gun violence...
This shirt sure screams patriotism right? If you can’t see the problem with it I feel sorry for you rtw,  I know you’re smarter than that...Don’t worry you can’t hurt my feelings and if you do I can go see my doctor and get them checked for free 



t


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 9, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> Am I making it up? 2 Yahoos at the last trump rally spotted in this oh so tasteful attire...Also socialism is how MOST of the world is successful, it’s America and it’s capitalism/conservatism  that’s put you so low on the list of countries in almost everything but incarceration and gun violence...
> This shirt sure screams patriotism right? If you can’t see the problem with it I feel sorry for you rtw,  I know you’re smarter than that...
> View attachment 105093t


You don’t understand facetiousness do you?  It’s done as a joke, a basic F-U to the democrats.  What you should learn about the Republicans in the U.S. is that there is not a more anti-commie group of people in the world.  That’s your biggest clue that Trump merely co-opted the nomination.

As to Socialism working, Nope, it is not a working sustainable system anywhere.  That’s why most of the world doesn’t have it.  They have mixed systems that are still draining the coffers of a number of them.  Stifle creativity and independence and desire to work hard by not making it worth it to excel? That’s what actual Socialism does. And since when did the U.S. invent capitalism? Come on, get it together.  

And yes, I am very smart on the U.S. political system, thanks! It’s one of my two fields of expertise.  I understand it well.  You don’t see me trying to comment on Norway or Canada, do you, my friend?  We should stick to what we know, right? 

Otherwise we insult people through ignorance or accident.  Either way, it breeds hostility, which this world doesn’t need any more of.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Aug 9, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> socialism is how MOST of the world is successful



The only way socialism is successfully implemented ,is if it has capitalism to feed off of. In the absence of a free market ,socialism is about as successful as it is in Venezuela right now ,and has been in the past.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

Ima let you finish but...


DRDNA said:


> and still with out the USA's buying power your lil country of Noraway and even all of the UK will not save any country the USA goes to trade war with including China, except for Russia who can survive anything and thats why they are about to be our great ally and together a force that none can touch. watch and see because nobody is going to stop this train.And when this is history I get to say I told you so


August‎ ‎8‎, ‎2018: U.S. Sanctions Russia, With More Threatened, for Nerve-Agent Use



INSTG8R said:


> Put lumber and power on the list and Canada could hurt you very badly so beat your chest all you like you’ll soon find yourself very alone if this trade war really comes to blows


November‎ ‎2‎, ‎2017‎: U.S. Places Punitive Tariffs on Canadian Lumber Amid Impasse

...this isn't the beginning of the tariffs, just the first of the tech tariffs (other than those that put ZTE out of business momentarily).


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> The only way socialism is successfully implemented ,is if it has capitalism to feed off of. In the absence of a free market ,socialism is about as successful as it is in Venezuela right now ,and has been in the past.


Nobody is saying pure socialism works we all know it doesn’t but it definitely provides a better quality of life. Medicaid /Medicare and Social Security are all socialist programs, heck it’s right in the name. Like I said here in Norway I get free healthcare, 5 weeks paid vacation and a guaranteed pension all “socialist” Norway is one of the richest countries per capita and Norwegians have very little to complain about other than high gas prices in a country that’s bread and butter is oil...


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher









Norway's oil won't last forever (either by supply or by demand); what comes next?


And what does that have to do with electronic tariffs?


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No arguments there, already seen a lot of ebb and flow in that regard. Heck the state oil company Statoil has rebranded themselves now as Equinor and pushing alternative energy. But they have amassed a huge pile of cash that will last for decades and it’s the reason they’ll never join the EU because they have no intention of ever sharing it.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

Most oil companies have large cash reserves but that's mostly to fund expeditions into finding new energy reservoirs.  Even the largest oil companies only have 7-10 years of proven oil reserves.


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Most oil companies have large cash reserves but that's mostly to fund expeditions into finding new energy reservoirs.  Even the largest oil companies only have 7-10 years of proven oil reserves.


No it’s not the oil companies reserves it’s the countries oil fund worth over a trillion dollars it’s where all the countries pensions come from.  It’s the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

"In May 2018 it was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen." That's not going to last long, especially when the oil dries up and Norway has little in the way of alternative industry to fill the gap.


What does this have to do with electronic tariffs anyway?


----------



## INSTG8R (Aug 9, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> "In May 2018 it was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen." That's not going to last long, especially when the oil dries up and Norway has little in the way of alternative industry to fill the gap.
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with electronic tariffs anyway?


Someone picked on Norway like it was small potatoes. They also have a huge fishing industry that a China buys a lot of.


----------



## R0H1T (Aug 9, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Most oil companies have large cash reserves but that's mostly to fund expeditions into finding new energy reservoirs.  Even the largest oil companies only have 7-10 years of proven oil reserves.


I'd say the Saudis, Venezuela, Iraq would like to have a word with you, especially now that tar sands & possibly even methane hydrates supplement traditional oil or coal based energy.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

Shhhh, it's a secret. Also, I said companies (Equinor is the only state owned company represented).


----------



## R0H1T (Aug 9, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Shhhh, it's a secret. Also, I said companies (*Equinor is the only state owned company represented*).


That's true but the point is oil consumption could decline, from traditional sources, in the not so distant future, even after excluding renewable energy potential. Aramco, *Venezuelan* and *Iraqi* state oil companies (don't recall names) can and probably will survive the ups & down that private entities have to deal with, especially market forces out of their control. In most cases the subsidies will ensure that these oil rich nations continue to prosper, so long as they diversify or offset their dependence on oil. The likes of BP, Shell, Total, Exxon Mobil don't have that luxury and thus need capital expenditure to continue (long term) profitability.

I realize you're probably saying the same thing, but I'm clarifying my position a bit further.


----------



## dorsetknob (Aug 9, 2018)

this thread has got very TOXIC


----------



## RCoon (Aug 9, 2018)

Trade tariffs on PC components. Nothing more, or brownie points will be awarded.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

I want a guesstimate on what the tariffs will do to consumer prices in USA and abroad.  I haven't seen anyone do the math yet.

I know looking at parts to replace my dead X58, it's looking like $540 for MSI B450-A Pro, Ryzen 2400G, 2x4 GiB HyperX RAM, LG DVD+-RW, and Windows 10 Pro license.  Assuming all of that gets a 25% tariff sans Windows, price jumps up to $640.


----------



## dorsetknob (Aug 9, 2018)

My Opinion on this is
USA Sanction's on China = Chinese Retaliation
Result
Global Trade Slowdown and price Hikes
why ?
Global electronics are mainly made in non USA States ie China
so sanctions imposed on china also effect other players ( Trade with china Share the Sanctions) 
That means the Supply Chain Cost more to keep going .
Manufacturing Reduces because of sanctions and component cost rise's 
World Price's rise for components = Consumer goods price Rise. (world wide)


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 9, 2018)

2011 article by Steve Abb, a 85 year old economist and certified public accountant spells it all.  The short version is that China fixed the Yuan to the United States Dollar.  They did it again just over a month ago in order to counter the weakening of the Yuan against the Dollar.


			
				Steve Abb said:
			
		

> Over the years China stated it would gradually increase the value of the Yuan. However, only small changes took place. The result has been a continuing loss of U.S. jobs and factories. It is probable that *China will take decisive action only after it observes the U.S. actually establishing tariffs*, subsidies, regulations, etc. that offset or exceed the barriers created by China's Unfair Trade Practices. At that time *China will vigorously complain and come up with many bogus arguments*, employ lobbyists and public relations people. *The U.S. has suffered too much and too long and should persevere in these solutions.*


China has deliberately kept their Yuan cheap compared to the Dollar in order to make Chinese manufacturing attractive to US companies willing to outsource.  By all accounts, it worked:





The tariffs have been a decade in the making.  Either USA inflicts punative damages on China for it or China continues to leech jobs from its trade partners (especially USA).  EU isn't taking China's side for a reason.

That said, Trump has been throwing tariffs everywhere and at everyone.


This paragraph from Wikipedia sums it up well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Until 2005, the value of the renminbi was pegged to the US dollar. As China pursued its transition from central planning to a market economy, and increased its participation in foreign trade, the renminbi was devalued to increase the competitiveness of Chinese industry. It has previously been claimed that the renminbi's official exchange rate was undervalued by as much as 37.5% against its purchasing power parity.[6] More recently, however, appreciation actions by the Chinese government, as well as quantitative easing measures taken by the American Federal Reserve and other major central banks, have caused the renminbi to be within as little as 8% of its equilibrium value by the second half of 2012.[7] Since 2006, the renminbi exchange rate has been allowed to float in a narrow margin around a fixed base rate determined with reference to a basket of world currencies. The Chinese government has announced that it will gradually increase the flexibility of the exchange rate. As a result of the rapid internationalization of the renminbi, it became the world's 8th most traded currency in 2013,[8] and 5th by 2015.[9]


They also attempt to limit exchanges, forbidding massive shifts in Yuan value (technically not pegged but effectively is):


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Beginning in January 2010, Chinese and non-Chinese citizens have an annual exchange limit of a maximum of US$50,000. Exchange will only proceed if the applicant appears in person at the relevant bank, and presents their passport or Chinese ID; these deals are being centrally registered. The maximum dollar withdrawal is $10,000 per day, the *maximum purchase limit of USD is $500 per day*. This stringent management of the currency leads to a bottled-up demand for exchange in both directions. It is viewed as a major tool to keep the currency peg, preventing inflows of 'hot money'.


----------



## stimpy88 (Aug 9, 2018)

USA...USA...USA...USA...

It's going to be great just how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs are coming back from China because of this...


----------



## john_ (Aug 9, 2018)

I guess US needed to put a tax on goods, similar to that in EU and had to find an excuse to do that. The big bad red China was a nice excuse. Usually what happens with new taxes is that they stay permanently. Politicians promise to remove them if they get elected, they get elected, in the beginning they say that removing the tax is complex and it needs work, then they promise to lower it, then it is permanent and can only go up.


----------



## trog100 (Aug 9, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> You'd think...
> 
> 
> 
> Like anyone with half a brain wants war with Russia....



some people do want war with russia.. lots of money is made my creating a possible war with russia... billions hinges on russia being an "enemy" the industrial military complex needs an "enemy" to justify its very expensive existence.. without an "enemy" it would not be able to rake in the money it does.. 

the end result of this shit is a very real possibility of a war being started by design or accident.. war is more likely than its ever been in the past.. 

trog


----------



## jboydgolfer (Aug 9, 2018)

INSTG8R said:


> Nobody is saying pure socialism works we all know it doesn’t but it definitely provides a better quality of life. Medicaid /Medicare and Social Security are all socialist programs, heck it’s right in the name. Like I said here in Norway I get free healthcare, 5 weeks paid vacation and a guaranteed pension all “socialist” Norway is one of the richest countries per capita and Norwegians have very little to complain about other than high gas prices in a country that’s bread and butter is oil...



OK , i agree with the fact that aspects of socialism can be attractive in certain situations. but what you said was "socialism is how MOST of the world is successful", which isnt true. The free healthcare part of Norway or Canada is socialism, the High wages are the capitalism part. What the countries you have mentioned have is "democratic socialism" (which is neither democratic, nor socialist, it was labelled with a friendly name to hide its history, like a killer changing their name and moving to hide their nature). For example, Canada is a capitalist country, with socialized medicine. Nordic countries have similar. The high standard of living in Norway, is due to capitalism. Since socialism requires the abolition of the profit incentive. I think its important that people realize that communism is a tried and tested method of failure & death/suffering, Socialism is the "transition" of a free market into communism, since the leap from one ideology to another is deemed as not feasible by communists.



INSTG8R said:


> Nobody is saying pure socialism works we all know it doesn’t but it definitely provides a better quality of life. Medicaid /Medicare and Social Security are all socialist programs, heck it’s right in the name. Like I said here in Norway I get free healthcare, 5 weeks paid vacation and a guaranteed pension all “socialist” Norway is one of the richest countries per capita and Norwegians have very little to complain about other than high gas prices in a country that’s bread and butter is oil...


*the blue is the capitalist part of norway, the red is the Democratic socialist part.( Also, You mention residence in Canada, if i recall correctly, You need to live in Norway for 40 years AFTER the age of 16 to collect that pension,unless im misreading the law ,which is possible). *


First, i will say that i respect your opinion.

But the truth is, democratic socialsim isnt democratic, its force. Its no more democratic, than the Peoples REPUBLIC of Korea (N Korea) is a republic. On paper , communism is alluring, but it never has turned out good for the country it is implemented in. I fear people mistake socialism for other forms of capitalism, and attribute success to the wrong ideology, which can only go poorly , especially in a world where the youth seem hell bent on ignoring the factual history of oppression, and starvation of the communist ideology. I dont want to try & convince you or change your mind, nor do i think its my place, but id suggest anyone who thinks socialist aspects or communism are alluring, take the time and look closely into these ideologies, since sooner or later, the wealth eearned in the free market will run out, and all that is left is socialism and starvation, which i dont want for anyone . Nordic countries were wealthy LONG before socialism was implemented, I forget where i read or heard it, but i saw a study that showed, Nordics who moved to the US, enjoyed more success, which doesnt surprise me one bit.  socialism will breed a lazy/defeated or complacent youth , with no need to succeed, since no upward mobility exists. Socialism lite is a parasitic , forceful mid ground that may show success , i just hope it stays that way.

i dont wish to argue this ,as ive done it far too many times, i wish you the best, now im gonna drink my coffee


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 9, 2018)

trog100 said:


> some people do want war with russia.. lots of money is made my creating a possible war with russia... billions hinges on russia being an "enemy" the industrial military complex needs an "enemy" to justify its very expensive existence.. without an "enemy" it would not be able to rake in the money it does..
> 
> the end result of this shit is a very real possibility of a war being started by design or accident.. war is more likely than its ever been in the past..
> 
> trog



Direct war with Russia = MAD.  Won't happen.  It's the whole reason proxy wars were created.


----------



## Totally (Aug 9, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Yeah I'm sure the dozen other women feel the same about drumpf, aside from Stormy of course who feared for her life & had to spill the beans on the orange one.
> Private entertainment perhaps, unless one prefers golden showers out in the open?



Stormy Daniels oh rly? She from whenever this business occurred to the present to bring this up and way less to fear before the guy was sworn to office, lets call it what it is a smear campaign, she got paid for whatever she did and to remain silent as long as she did and probably got paid more than the settlement bring this up now. She's not a victim, I recognize people like that as opportunistic sleazeballs.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 9, 2018)

stimpy88 said:


> USA...USA...USA...USA...
> 
> It's going to be great just how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs are coming back from China because of this...



None?  Taiwan is far closer.


----------



## R0H1T (Aug 9, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> None?


I think it was a sarcastic comment


----------



## Totally (Aug 9, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> None?  Taiwan is far closer.



They don't have the capacity. If there is an exodus they'll only be able to take a fraction.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 9, 2018)

Totally said:


> They don't have the capacity. If there is an exodus they'll only be able to take a fraction.



Of course they do.  Unless you are going off topic again.

But even for other OT things, fact is USA doesn't have that capacity anymore and it won't come overnight.  Other avenues will be pursued first.  This whole thing is a pipe dream longing for an era in our country that is long past.



R0H1T said:


> I think it was a sarcastic comment



Nope.  I seriously doubt this will bring any meaningful figure home.  It may even hurt certain industries.

Oh, you may mean his comment...  yeah.  Maybe.


----------



## R0H1T (Aug 9, 2018)

Totally said:


> They don't have the capacity. If there is an exodus they'll only be able to take a fraction.


The way this will pan out *IMO* is this way ~
US raises taxes -> Chinese exports, mainly(?) electronics become expensive -> US consumption declines, possibly proportionally wrt the hike -> US based companies cut ties to certain China based component makers (assembly?) move part of the production to Vietnam, Taiwan -> *not many jobs created* in the US, if any.

The same goes for other large manufacturers that have exposure to China, including the ones from SK, Taiwan, EU, Japan etc.


----------



## dorsetknob (Aug 9, 2018)

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ake-of-us-import-tariffs.246644/#post-3883123

Amonst the many it starts with a few


----------



## trog100 (Aug 9, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Direct war with Russia = MAD.  Won't happen.  It's the whole reason proxy wars were created.



you assume there is a degree of sanity at work and maybe even in control.. me i am not so sure.. he he..

america is now a country where even an attempt at making peace with the russians (avoiding war) is seen as treason.. it would seem the lunatics are now running the asylum.. he he..

dont get me wrong here the UK is doing the same and going the same way.. from where i stand insanity rules.. 

trog


----------



## Basard (Aug 9, 2018)

trog100 said:


> from where i stand insanity rules..


Maybe for a short while it will rule....  Mostly, they just think they rule because they (the insane) are the loudest.


----------



## atomicus (Aug 10, 2018)

Assimilator said:


> Glad to know I can also add you to the list of "obviously crazy people on TPU".



ROFL, please explain how that is "obviously crazy"... using such terminology only paints you as such. 



R0H1T said:


> Yeah I'm sure the dozen other women feel the same about drumpf, aside from Stormy of course who feared for her life & had to spill the beans on the orange one.
> Private entertainment perhaps, unless one prefers golden showers out in the open?



You seem to be conveniently forgetting how Clinton went for those women who her busband boinked, intimidating them and hiring private investigators. I love how people make her out to be some kind of saint when she was anything but. The US would be no better off with her in charge, and mired in just as much of the legal controversy and mess that Trump has brought. And golden showers in the open? What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## dorsetknob (Aug 10, 2018)

Reminder 


RCoon said:


> Trade tariffs on PC components. Nothing more, or brownie points will be awarded.


Brownie Points are not on the sanction list


----------



## dalekdukesboy (Aug 12, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> As opposed to voting in a corrupt war-hungry neo-con, the wife of the man that signed NAFTA, and a frankly unpleasant woman in poor health that blames everybody but herself for her problems after running on a platform of higher taxes and "everyone who doesnt like me is a horrible sub-human".
> 
> Not really a hard choice there.
> 
> ...



THIS. But if you're a rabid never Trumper of any political persuasion with incurable Trump Derangement Syndrome, I'd expect nothing more than that reply to tariff issues. If you want us to continue to get screwed with tariffs keep whining, this is a bump in the road long overdue and bumpier than need be because no other President of any political party bothered to deal with our pathetic trade deficit.



ssdpro said:


> It was about family values. 5 kids from 3 different women while the bragging about the various ways he assaults women and peeps on teenage girls.



Versus the woman who is married to and enabled a serial assaulter and rapist who got bj's from a girl practically young enough to be his granddaughter while in the White House? Please.


----------



## remixedcat (Aug 12, 2018)

I'd rather more companies just made stuff in the US it would actually save them more money in the long run. Also stuff will be better quality.


----------



## Assimilator (Aug 12, 2018)

dalekdukesboy said:


> THIS. But if you're a rabid never Trumper of any political persuasion with incurable Trump Derangement Syndrome, I'd expect nothing more than that reply to tariff issues. If you want us to continue to get screwed with tariffs keep whining, this is a bump in the road long overdue and bumpier than need be because no other President of any political party bothered to deal with our pathetic trade deficit.



Ah yes, it's easy to see how the Trumpanzee is dealing with the trade deficit by cutting the largest contributor to it, the military. Oh wait he's not, just like no other president. But keep MAGA-wanking your alternative facts over there.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 12, 2018)

remixedcat said:


> I'd rather more companies just made stuff in the US it would actually save them more money in the long run. Also stuff will be better quality.


I wouldn't say that.  Quality ends up about the same no matter what human does it.  They were mostly saving money because of the currency floating.  Without floating, the cost of shipping and exchange rate ends up not making Chinese manufacturing very attractive any more.  Thing is, all of the manufacturing elsewhere has gone away over the last decade.  Now there's not much choice without investing millions to start up their own manufacturing elsewhere.



Assimilator said:


> Ah yes, it's easy to see how the Trumpanzee is dealing with the trade deficit by cutting the largest contributor to it, the military. Oh wait he's not, just like no other president. But keep MAGA-wanking your alternative facts over there.


Military actually funds the largest manufacturing block in the USA.  Every warship is made in the USA (Northrup Grumman, Bath Iron Works) and some cost over a billion each.  All of the trucks (Oshkosh, General Dynamics), all of the computers (IBM, Sun,  Cray), all of the weapons (Colt, Browning) are made in the USA.  Military literally keeps some companies afloat (one of the reasons the A-10 is still in service).

Trade deficit is mostly caused by USA being 71% consumer economy.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 13, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I wouldn't say that.  Quality ends up about the same no matter what human does it.  They were mostly saving money because of the currency floating.  Without floating, the cost of shipping and exchange rate ends up not making Chinese manufacturing very attractive any more.  Thing is, all of the manufacturing elsewhere has gone away over the last decade.  Now there's not much choice without investing millions to start up their own manufacturing elsewhere.
> 
> 
> Military actually funds the largest manufacturing block in the USA.  Every warship is made in the USA and some cost over a billion each.  All of the trucks, all of the computers, all of the weapons are made in the USA.  Military literally keeps some companies afloat (one of the reasons the A-10 is still in service).
> ...



Computers.. Probably where all of cool micron stuff is going, that I can't even get. Like why were joint developing 3DXPoint with Intel.. yet Intel is the only one with consumer products? :\


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 13, 2018)

Micron is a wholesaler where Intel does both.  Micron doesn't do much in the way of packaging to install the tech in systems.  Intel kind of has Micron by the balls in regards to licensing it.


----------



## dalekdukesboy (Aug 13, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I wouldn't say that.  Quality ends up about the same no matter what human does it.  They were mostly saving money because of the currency floating.  Without floating, the cost of shipping and exchange rate ends up not making Chinese manufacturing very attractive any more.  Thing is, all of the manufacturing elsewhere has gone away over the last decade.  Now there's not much choice without investing millions to start up their own manufacturing elsewhere.
> 
> 
> Military actually funds the largest manufacturing block in the USA.  Every warship is made in the USA and some cost over a billion each.  All of the trucks, all of the computers, all of the weapons are made in the USA.  Military literally keeps some companies afloat (one of the reasons the A-10 is still in service).
> ...



Assinhimlater says you're just a Trumpanzee wanker, take your "alternative facts" elsewhere.


----------



## StrayKAT (Aug 13, 2018)

dalekdukesboy said:


> Assinhimlater says you're just a Trumpanzee wanker, take your "alternative facts" elsewhere.



I'm just surprised a South African could be that passionate about Trump and American trade deficits, of all things. Aren't farmers getting killed over there, by it's own government? And people are barricading their homes from mobs and even hiring armed security? You'd think such a person would have more important things to get angry about.


----------



## dalekdukesboy (Aug 13, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I'm just surprised a South African could be that passionate about Trump, of all things. Aren't farmers getting killed over there, by it's own government? And people are barricading their homes from mobs and even hiring armed security? You'd think such a person would have more important things to get angry about.



Maybe he's Trevor Noah? Or Noah Trevor? Whatever that dumbass "comedian" is called who's from South Africa.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 13, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Micron is a wholesaler where Intel does both.  Micron doesn't do much in the way of packaging to install the tech in systems.  Intel kind of has Micron by the balls in regards to licensing it.


Micron does both wholesale and retail.  They wholly own Crucial so they can sell their own chips in SSD and RAM.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 13, 2018)

Got to be something in the contract that forbids it then.


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## Assimilator (Aug 13, 2018)

dalekdukesboy said:


> Assinhimlater says you're just a Trumpanzee wanker, take your "alternative facts" elsewhere.



Where did I say that, captain genius?

Fact of the matter is that many of these pork-barrel military manufacturing projects are horribly wasteful black holes of taxpayer money that exist solely to keep Americans employed and politicians in power. For example, the US Army doesn't want or need any more M1 Abrams tanks, yet the assembly lines keep churning them out... and then there's the F-22 Raptor... and the Zumwalts. If Trump or any President wanted to make a dent in the deficit, auditing and cutting those programs would have far more of an effect than slapping tariffs on everyone you don't like because MUH UNFAIRNESS.

Oh, and the best part: the majority of that military manufacturing is in red states (you know, the ones who voted for the party that wants to cut social welfare) - yet those manufacturing programs that exist solely to keep people in jobs are essentially... social welfare programs.



StrayKAT said:


> I'm just surprised a South African could be that passionate about Trump and American trade deficits, of all things. Aren't farmers getting killed over there, by it's own government? And people are barricading their homes from mobs and even hiring armed security? You'd think such a person would have more important things to get angry about.



LOL. SA is going into the shitter, but I do wish Americans who think they know everything would take a small amount of time and effort to find out basic facts.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 13, 2018)

Assimilator said:


> For example, the US Army doesn't want or need any more M1 Abrams tanks, yet the assembly lines keep churning them out...


They do not.  The last new Abrams was built in 1996.  All they do now is refurbish them.  Congress wanted to shut down refurbishment for a few years but analysis determined that the cost to resume production would cost more than is saved.  Because USA needs to maintain production readiness, they decided to keep funding for Abrams to a minimum and invest in the M1A3 upgrade package (aka, more refurbishment).  Development and production of a new main battle tank was ruled out in favor of M1A3.



Assimilator said:


> ...and then there's the F-22 Raptor...


Raptor has been out of production since 2011.  Pretty much the same story as Abrams: maintenance and refurbishment.  USA maintains the capability to ramp up production of them if the need arises.



Assimilator said:


> and the Zumwalts.


Canceled (will only be three) because the per-ship cost exceeded the limit of 25% from projected.  Again, USA could order more but priority has shifted to maintenance and refurbishment of Arleigh Burke class of destroyers (less than half the cost of Zumwalt).



Assimilator said:


> If Trump or any President wanted to make a dent in the deficit, auditing and cutting those programs would have far more of an effect than slapping tariffs on everyone you don't like because MUH UNFAIRNESS.


The House holds the purse strings.  The House decides what does and doesn't get funded.  POTUS only makes suggestions by offering a budget proposal.  As far as I know, Congress has never straight up enacted the POTUS's proposal.  It's always a mish-mash of different things with a bunch of amendments tacked on.



Assimilator said:


> Oh, and the best part: the majority of that military manufacturing is in red states...


The majority of *all* manufacturing is in red states.  Blue states trend towards service industries.


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## rtwjunkie (Aug 13, 2018)

Assimilator said:


> LOL. SA is going into the shitter, but I do wish Americans who think they know everything would take a small amount of time and effort to find out basic facts.


Which is why you don’t see me commenting on SA.  Ford pretty much covered 99% of what I would have shared with you.  The last 1% would be to follow your own advice in regards to the U.S.


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## hat (Aug 13, 2018)

Not much point going there. It's not my fault that the USA does what it does, nor is it Assimilator's fault that South Africa does what it does.


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## dalekdukesboy (Aug 13, 2018)

Assimilator said:


> Ah yes, it's easy to see how the *Trumpanzee* is dealing with the trade deficit by cutting the largest contributor to it, the military. Oh wait he's not, just like no other president. But keep *MAGA-wanking your alternative facts* over there.



dalekdukesboy said:
Assinhimlater says you're just a , take your *"alternative facts"* elsewhere.
*Trumpanzee wanke*_r_

I quoted you, that's where you said it, private genius; you don't even make rank of captain in the captain genius joke. Also you're a lib, you have no sense of humor, so yes you didn't say it to him literally/verbatim but to me but it's called having a sense of humor and making a point of your attitude towards our side of the argument in general, got it? 



Assimilator said:


> Where did I say that, captain genius?
> 
> LOL. SA is going into the shitter, but I do wish Americans who think they know everything would take a small amount of time and effort to find out basic facts.



And yes I give you kudos for admitting SA is a shithole, America isn't so you may want to worry more about where you live than the flawed but great country that in less than 300 years kicked the crap out of the rest of the countries that have been here thousands of years.  And as RT said Ford obliterated all your military spending grousing in detail so no need to go there again.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 13, 2018)

Parts of America are definitely bad too (not as bad as that particular SA situation, but still).. but they're either the result of extremely high taxing (Cali especially.. which is experiencing an exodus at this point). Or unfettered free market policies leading to globalism and relocating jobs. Both of which are the extremes of the Right and Left. Neither of these things are Trump's fault. He's the odd free trade advocate who's also a nationalist. So I'm willing to hear him out. I don't think the world has even seen this in awhile.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Aug 14, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Canceled (will only be three) because the per-ship cost exceeded the limit of 25% from projected. Again, USA could order more but priority has shifted to maintenance and refurbishment of Arleigh Burke class of destroyers (less than half the cost of Zumwalt).


Canned after they went 2x over the budget of the original 32 (THIRTY TWO) ships and built only 3 instead... 

It doesn't matter whether they cancelled the project or not, they dumped more than their share of money in the project anyway...


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## StrayKAT (Aug 14, 2018)

I don't even think it's worth talking about US military spending :\ THERE ARE TRILLIONS missing. It was actually going to be investigated by none other than Donald Rumsfeld at one point.. and I actually think he was sincere once. After 9/11 it was never spoken about again.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 14, 2018)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Canned after they went 2x over the budget of the original 32 (THIRTY TWO) ships and built only 3 instead...
> 
> It doesn't matter whether they cancelled the project or not, they dumped more than their share of money in the project anyway...


It's about $1 billion per ship to build when the contract was for 32 in 1998.  When the Navy reduced the orders to just seven ships in 2004 and ever since, it was in violation of the Nunn-McCurdy Amendment where they were looking at $1.5 billion ships for $2.5 billion in sail away costs.  When the order was changed to a scant three in 2009, the per ship cost soared to almost $6 billion. Source.  The projected sail-away cost now is $7.5 billion per ship--pretty sure that makes them the most expensive ships ever made.

And I was actually wrong.  It was the Navy that originally wanted 32 and later dropped it to 2.  Because of Susan Collins (R-ME) pleading, Navy bumped it back up to 3.  Reason for scaling back the orders? It's a ship designed to fight an enemy that doesn't exist (think Cold War).  Money that was going to go to ordering more Zumwalts instead went to ordering more Burkes. Source. Navy wanted 313 ships and that's easier to achieve with Burkes than Zumwalts.  Additionally, Zumwalt is less capable at counter submarine warfare (which is what destroyers are for...which Zumwalt technically is) than Burke because of its stealthy profile (can't have deck torpedo tubes pointing every direction like Burke has).


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## GorbazTheDragon (Aug 14, 2018)

Assimilator said:


> military manufacturing projects are horribly wasteful black holes of taxpayer money that exist solely to keep Americans employed



$22.5 billion for 





> a ship designed to fight an enemy that doesn't exist



Do you see the connection?


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 14, 2018)

Pretty sure USA would probably have 32 (or more) if there was a credible threat against the USA that it could counter.  Zumwalt really cuts back on the number of sailors required to operate a ship (175 versus 323 of Arleigh Burke-class Flight IIA) and that should translate into long term savings (but fewer employed).


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## StrayKAT (Aug 14, 2018)

It's not just large items. I come from a military family.. I always heard stories of waste at all levels. Be it the mess halls or the office/computer equipment.


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## remixedcat (Aug 14, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They do not.  The last new Abrams was built in 1996.  All they do now is refurbish them.  Congress wanted to shut down refurbishment for a few years but analysis determined that the cost to resume production would cost more than is saved.  Because USA needs to maintain production readiness, they decided to keep funding for Abrams to a minimum and invest in the M1A3 upgrade package (aka, more refurbishment).  Development and production of a new main battle tank was ruled out in favor of M1A3.
> 
> 
> Raptor has been out of production since 2011.  Pretty much the same story as Abrams: maintenance and refurbishment.  USA maintains the capability to ramp up production of them if the need arises.
> ...




Joe manshion scared all the jobs away from my state. 6 datacenter firms, baretta, amazon, and a few other companies were all scared off by joe blow and he is the reason the opioid crisis is so bad here. and his daughter or whatever was the ceo of the company that racked prices of epipens so high. big pharma has this state by the balls and joe is best buds and literally related to it. sadness.png If we had more jobs here we wouldn't have such chemical dependancies here and people wouldn't have to sell pills for money. watch the documentary called "oxyana" for a good rundown on this state's isses and then you'll see how bad the democrats run things.


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## AlwaysHope (Aug 18, 2018)

Glad I already ordered & paid for the guts of my next upgrade ( CPU, mobo & ram) last week. Even though I'm not shopping or physically located in the USA, who knows what the fall out from this situation is going to do with other nations tech markets like in Australia for example?

Our stuff comes via SE Asia shipping routes AFAIK & of course 99% made in China.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Aug 18, 2018)

AFAIK a lot of the big hardware stuff is shipped directly from the US. Areas like South America and maybe Africa could be an exception for some stuff.

Could be worse though for some more specialist stuff like watercooling hardware


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## StrayKAT (Aug 18, 2018)

Looks like China is telling it's people to prepare for hard times.. They're also sending a new trade delegation to the US to maybe/finally work this out. Maybe these tariffs won't last much longer.

Unfortunately, the Pentagon also says China is starting to train for strikes against the US. Geez. I guess this is Plan B for China.

And people thought Trump wouldn't phase them. It definitely did. But it's kind of like poking the hornet's nest.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 18, 2018)

They've been cheating the USA for over a decade now.  There's always going to be resistance to righting the wrong especially when wrong is status quo.


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## R0H1T (Aug 18, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Looks like China is telling it's people to prepare for hard times.. They're also sending a new trade delegation to the US to maybe/finally work this out. Maybe these tariffs won't last much longer.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Pentagon also says *China is starting to train for strikes against the US*. Geez. I guess this is Plan B for China.
> 
> And people thought Trump wouldn't phase them. It definitely did. But it's kind of like poking the hornet's nest.


Like the usual ones?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/16/china_hacks_alaska/


FordGT90Concept said:


> They've been cheating the USA for over *a decade* now.  There's always going to be resistance to righting the wrong especially when wrong is status quo.


I'd argue more than a decade but the US profit making, greedy companies had a huge role to play in that.


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## Caring1 (Aug 18, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> …..
> Unfortunately, the Pentagon also says China is starting to train for strikes against the US. Geez. I guess this is Plan B for China.....


I wouldn't expect the Pentagon war machine to say anything else.
I guess they are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and never hypothesised an attack on China either.


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## dorsetknob (Aug 18, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Unfortunately, the Pentagon also says China is starting to train for strikes against the US. Geez. I guess this is Plan B for China.


That's not news that's reality
Every Major Power Plans and Trains against Every other power (its Called Contingency planning)
Heck even the UK plans these thing's ( Our last plan against the USA was the Deployment of Piers Morgan ..)
then there are the Proxy war efforts


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 18, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Our last plan against the USA was the Deployment of Piers Morgan ..


That backfired.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 18, 2018)

Caring1 said:


> I wouldn't expect the Pentagon war machine to say anything else.
> I guess they are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and never hypothesised an attack on China either.



It managed to reached the top of headlines. Excuse me for pointing it out. 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/politics/china-military-mission-targeting-us/index.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...raining-strike-us-pentagon-report/1017278002/

I'm not particularly alarmed or anything. China is remarkably peaceful as a "superpower". Moreso than the US and Russia has been at least.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 18, 2018)

Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the South China Sea.  China has been taking territory for years, ships have been sunk.

China has also been predatory lending to other countries like Macedonia.  TL;DR:
1) Macedonia agreed to an infrastructure project that costs more than Macedonia's economy makes in a year.
2) Macedonia was told no less than two times the project will never pay for itself in terms of economic activity.
3) China swooped in with their own reports that conflicted with #2, they offered a massive loan to start construction with two conditions: the majority of labor had to be performed by Chinese (as in forced immigration/settlement in Macedonia) and if Macedonia ever fails to make interest payments on the loan, China will own the project forever.
4) The project is about 1/3 complete and has run Macedonia into the ground.
5) Now Macedonians are protesting their government that signed a bad deal with China and collapsed their economy.

This is how China wages war: extends one hand in peace while the other hand is ready to drive a dagger in your neck.

Chinese Spending Lures Countries to Its Belt and Road Initiative

China didn't have money to do these things in the first place.  It took on debt to fund the projects.  The tariffs and economic instability that it brought are making China's debt load punishing because China's economy is literally powered by trade with other countries.  No more stealing industry from other countries means the factories that created a middle class in China no longer have orders to produce.  No orders means letting people go.  People with out pay have to go back to the farms to work.  Middle class is quickly turned back to impoverished.  This leads to unrest.  China likely has 10 contingency plans to protect the Communist Party from uprisings for every contingency plan they have for the USA.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 18, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the South China Sea.  China has been taking territory for years, ships have been sunk.



Of course, I'm aware (I'm also Asian btw and my family has a house that might get taken over one day). I didn't say they were completely peaceful. Just in the context of superpowers. They have no overall directive to influence global affairs that way (i.e. spread communism or spread "democracy") - or at the very least, it's more insidious and not in your face.

edit: Re: Insidiousness - This is also why I hope Japan maintains their resurgence back at the economical food chain...and should just re-militarize to boot. They're the best buffer to China. Taiwan is a bust.


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## John Naylor (Aug 18, 2018)

stimpy88 said:


> USA...USA...USA...USA...
> 
> It's going to be great just how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs are coming back from China because of this...



Trade imbalance actually went up 13% since tariffs imposed ... do the math.


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## AlwaysHope (Aug 19, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the South China Sea.  China has been taking territory for years, ships have been sunk.
> 
> China has also been predatory lending to other countries like Macedonia.  TL;DR:
> 1) Macedonia agreed to an infrastructure project that costs more than Macedonia's economy makes in a year.
> ...



Correct. The MS media here in Australia has been reporting those very issues in recent months, especially their Belt & Road initiative. Criticisms have been made at our current federal government for questioning the value of Australian foreign aid to south pacific nations in light of China's increasing "generosity" to financial aid for those nations.  It keeps Australia stuck between a rock & a hard place with our federal budget. Can't afford not to cut foreign aid in this part of the world but on the other hand our tax paying citizenry has no choice really.  

Nothing surprises me about CPC, expect literally anything to hang on to power.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 19, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> They have no overall directive to influence global affairs that way (i.e. spread communism or spread "democracy") - or at the very least, it's more insidious and not in your face.


But they do.  I already gave two examples.  It's very "in your face" in the nations it is happening.  China is literally building Chinatowns all over Asia and Europe.



StrayKAT said:


> This is also why I hope Japan maintains their resurgence back at the economical food chain...and should just re-militarize to boot.


They are but more because of North Korea than China.  Australia, Phillipines, etc. are militarizing because of China's incursions into the South China Sea.



John Naylor said:


> Trade imbalance actually went up 13% since tariffs imposed ... do the math.


Because businesses stockpiled before tariffs went into effect (surge of imports followed by a big slump).  It'll be a while before a new normal is established.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 19, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> But they do.  I already gave two examples.  It's very "in your face" in the nations it is happening.  China is literally building Chinatowns all over Asia and Europe.
> 
> 
> They are but more because of North Korea than China.  Australia, Phillipines, etc. are militarizing because of China's incursions into the South China Sea.
> ...



Well, for the record, I'm not trying to downplay anything or saying they uphold Gandhi's values. Not at all. But I still think they're tame in context of "superpowers". Which are utterly disastrous. USA up to Kennedy was OK, but disastrous otherwise. Same as Russia. These two not only ruined countries they supposedly intended to "enrich", but they outright destroyed some in proxy wars between each other. I don't see where China is doing that yet --- but of course, they don't have the opportunity either. America still somewhat keeps them in check for now.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 19, 2018)

China didn't have the Cold War to deal with, USA and Russia did.  It shaped policy for half a century.

I already gave one example: Macedonia.  They were doing okay until China made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Have another example: China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (another arm of the Belt & Road Initinative) has China building a road in Pakistani territory that India occupies.  They're effectively injecting themselves into a very old fued and colonizing Pakistan while they are at it.  In time, these countries will become (are already becoming) proxy states.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 19, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> China didn't have the Cold War to deal with, USA and Russia did.  It shaped policy for half a century.
> 
> I already gave one example: Macedonia.  They were doing okay until China made them an offer they couldn't refuse.



It kind of goes further back than that. The Cold War was an excuse. The problem is Left wing types tend to like to extend themselves. They're rarely isolationists. A lot of the current makeup of America started with Woodrow Wilson (and maybe Teddy Roosevelt) way before WW2 (and really, before WW1, since Wilson already carried this philosophy when he came into office). He felt obligated to spread "democracy" and his notion of civilization. And strangely, Wilson's influence was so deep it affected the Republicans eventually, through Neo-Cons. They were started by Irving Kristol (a leftist and Wilsonian) who supposedly dropped his party affiliations and became a Conservative. But they never truly dropped it - they kept Wilson's foreign policy ambitions of spreading Americanism.

...And we saw -- no, we see -- the results of that in the Iraq war. This is after the Cold War ended, and the same shenanigans continued under the guise of a "conservative" label. Then even after denouncing the Iraq War, another Leftist (Obama) just carried the same Wilsonian plan out once again in the Middle East. He was no different! Now Syria and Libya are complete wastelands, and others are on shaky ground at best. All of this might not be fixed for a hundred years at least.... and it had nothing to do with the Cold War.

I almost respect the Soviet's more, since they didn't obfuscate anything.. Communism has always had worldwide ambitions from the start. That starts with Marx himself.. since he was a utopian and thought this political model was the "destiny" of history or some stupid shit. Luckily, they were too limited economically to spread their taint as much they would have liked. That's what makes Americans kind of worse. They have the money to continue.

/rantoff

edit: If I sound antagonistic to America, I'm not. I am an American (err.. Asian American to be exact)... but more on the isolationist side.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 19, 2018)

USA was expansionist up until 1853. Between then and WWII, expansion was mostly based on necessity (coal stops for steamers). Between WWII and the Cold War USA projected it's power to rebuild Europe and resolve disputes to ensure WWIII doesn't come next.  Cold War was about stopping the USSR from spreading influence where it doesn't belong.  China is doing much the same as the USSR did but USA isn't trying to stop it like they did against USSR.

Syria, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. are all tied to the Arab Spring (mostly uprisings against dictators installed during the Cold War).  Syria very much smells of Cold War proxy war but instead of being over Communism, it is about Geneva-banned chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 19, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> USA was expansionist up until 1853. Between then and WWII, expansion was mostly based on necessity (coal stops for steamers). Between WWII and the Cold War USA projected it's power to rebuild Europe and resolve disputes to ensure WWIII doesn't come next.  Cold War was about stopping the USSR from spreading influence where it doesn't belong.  China is doing much the same as the USSR did but USA isn't trying to stop it like they did against USSR.
> 
> Syria, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. are all tied to the Arab Spring (mostly uprisings against dictators installed during the Cold War).  Syria very much smells of Cold War proxy war but instead of being over Communism, it is about Geneva-banned chemical weapons and ethnic cleansing.



Libya/Gaddafi wasn't installed because of the Cold War.. Nor was the original Assad (let alone Bashar Assad)..who was basically the same party as Saddam Hussein (Bathist.. which is more of a Pan-Islam mixed with Socialism thing). Either way, the Arab Spring was retarded. And I'm glad I saw it for what it was as it was happening. Same with Iraq. I remember the stupid documentaries instantly popping up cheering about the Arab Spring and all of the social media news. This childishly optimistic view of Democratic takeovers is the kind of disaster that I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with the Cold War, but it's as destructive all the same.


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## sepheronx (Aug 19, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Libya/Gaddafi wasn't installed because of the Cold War.. Nor was the original Assad (let alone Bashar Assad)..who was basically the same party as Saddam Hussein (Bathist.. which is more of a Pan-Islam mixed with Socialism thing). Either way, the Arab Spring was retarded. And I'm glad I saw it for what it was as it was happening. Same with Iraq. I remember the stupid documentaries instantly popping up cheering about the Arab Spring and all of the social media news. This childishly optimistic view of Democratic takeovers is the kind of disaster that I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with the Cold War, but it's as destructive all the same.



Better add my former country of Ukraine to that list.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 19, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Libya/Gaddafi wasn't installed because of the Cold War.. Nor was the original Assad (let alone Bashar Assad)..who was basically the same party as Saddam Hussein (Bathist.. which is more of a Pan-Islam mixed with Socialism thing).


These were countries that were occupied in the wake of WWII.  Installing minority dictators was how they aimed to maintain peace in each country because for the sake of their own survival, they had to keep the majorities at bay (either force or appeasement).  It worked for decades until Bush decided to topple Hussein.  People that fled Iraq sowed discontent in the places they immigrated to and so the rest fell.  Bush was informed that would happen before he invaded Iraq.  Perhaps that was his intent all along with Iraq becoming a model of democracy for the civil wars that follow to mirror.

Afghanistan was Cold War.  The rest were mostly fallout from WWII (but so was the Cold War itself).


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## StrayKAT (Aug 19, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> Better add my former country of Ukraine to that list.



Sorry to hear that.. :\


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## sepheronx (Aug 19, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Sorry to hear that.. :\



It hasn't became Libya or Iraq, but whatever, my family left long before the events.  2014 was just sad to see though.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 19, 2018)

Hot off the press, another example of China waging economic war:
Empty hotels, idle boats: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China


> Taiwan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs says China has lured four countries to switch diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in the past two years by offering generous aid packages and investment.





> “They (Chinese clients) are looking towards the next administration to improve the relationship with mainland China.”


Chinese tourists and investments -> do something politically to make China mad (like support Taiwan) -> China bans pretty much everything -> economy that was growing because of Chinese influence suddenly reverses -> nation has elections -> pro-Chinese candidate wins -> China has another puppet government that no longer recognizes Taiwan as a sovereign state

Rince and repeat.  These countries are vulnerable to economic exploitation and China exploits it.  It's going to take a lot more than tariffs to make China stop it.  It's going to take investment funds that exceed China's capacity to invest on a condition of accepting no investment from China (aka provide a better detail that promotes freedom).

--------------------------------------------------

Trade war puts new strains on America Inc's factories in China

Companies are talking about moving production to Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, United States, and India.  Virtually all are talking about reevaluating their supply chain and where they manufacture.

This quote surprised me:


> “Production costs are cheaper in the U.S. than in China,” said Yuan Juyou, deputy head of marketing at Wonderful Group, a ceramics maker. “Even though labor costs are more expensive, we have automated a lot of processes. Plus electricity, land, these kinds of costs are cheaper than China.”


Electricity and land is expensive in China.



> “The Chinese government embraced manufacturing back in the day. But now, they’re not looking for growth in the product business. They’re looking for high-tech,” [Larry Sloven] said.
> 
> “It’s a bit like when a wife comes to a husband and says, ‘I don’t love you anymore’.”



--------------------------------------------------

@btarunr here comes the US import tariffs on consumer goods:
Proposed Modification of Action Pursuant to Section 301: China's Acts, Policies, and Practices Related to Technology Transfer, Intellectual Property, and Innovation

It includes "8414.59.15 Fans used for cooling microprocessors, telecommunications equipment, or computers." 258 pages worth of tariffs that go into effect next month.  The Trump administration isn't kidding around anymore.


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## Deleted member 178884 (Sep 12, 2018)

Arpeegee said:


> after working in manufacturing for 10+ years I can honestly say their stuff is the absolute cheapest garbage you can get.


"cheapest garbage" Yet most of our electronics and made there and work perfectly fine.


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