# NVIDIA threatens NGOHQ over ForceWare Distribution



## Nyte (Jul 6, 2007)

It seems that NVIDIA is upset that the folks over at NGOHQ.com are distributing their ForceWare drivers with modified install scripts. NVIDIA is threatening legal action towards the site and its owners if they do not comply with their demands.

Of particular note is AMD/ATI's stance on modifying install scripts for their Catalyst package:

"Feel free to distribute and endorse Catalyst software. Just please let your users know that if they use modified drivers we aren't able to support them properly. Keep up the good work in the community." -AMD/ATI



NGOHQ issued an official response to the letter which can be found over here:
http://www.ngohq.com/news/11386-our-official-response-nvidia.html

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Jul 6, 2007)

nvidiots ...


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## petepete (Jul 6, 2007)

^ hahahhaa i like that


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## LonGun (Jul 6, 2007)

Sigh~ these days has come. I just feel for the guys over at NGOHQ. But aren't the other nvidia mod drivers using the script, too? There are a numbers of popular mod of nvidia forceware and I've always thought like AMD/ATI, NVIDIA is ok with their forceware drivers being modified, that as long as the driver is being used as for non-profit... Maybe it's just the "old personal problem" happened between them in the past... nevermind...


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## devguy (Jul 6, 2007)

> We are modifying ‘driver .INF file’ because you’re using your software illegally as a tool to promote your new products. You’re removing INF file support for older product generations to promote your new products illegally, and using your drivers as tool for psychological warfare on your customers. Your actions are violating the United States Antitrust laws & Huk Hahegbliim Haiskiim Haisraeli and consumer rights. You’re also making false advertisements by claiming your software is Unified Driver Architecture, while it’s not.
> 
> NVIDIA is required to ensure that their products are working, and the software is bug-free. Instead of working on your drivers, you’re ignoring issues, requests and customer’s rights by dropping support and playing software tricks with them. The consumers are suffering in both desktop/mobile platforms because of your abusive tactics.
> 
> Without these ‘modified drivers’, your customers would file class actions against you. Your users are downloading drivers from our site because you fail to satisfy them, and you ignore them (Unfriendly control panel, Known 7800 GS issues and more)



Wow, they spent the first several paragraphs stating that several US laws (of which Nvidia makes mention of) don't affect Israelis, and then they start telling Nvidia what they are doing is illegal here in the US...

Also, removing support for older cards is not illegal by any means in any country.  Morally wrong, of course, but illegal, no (look at those a-holes at Creative supporting the x-fi and not much else).  Also, there have been some attempts at class action lawsuits w/them, but that was over the 8x00 series in Vista (which still needs work, btw), and I don't forsee any class action lawsuit coming from Nvidia's customers if they don't have any modified infs around.

Don't get me wrong, I support what's going on at that site, and I disagree w/Nvidia's response to them, but the site's response is below par...



> "Feel free to distribute and endorse Catalyst software. Just please let your users know that if they use modified drivers we aren't able to support them properly. Keep up the good work in the community." -AMD/ATI



Go ATI/AMD!


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## LonGun (Jul 6, 2007)

LOL I like the Response Letter from NGOHQ to NVIDIA. It also pointed out many facts that actually makes sense and proved what Nvidia (or its manager rep) wrote were so rediculously wrong; for example, why NGOHQ.com is the only site that recieved that (BS) letter? and their use of providing the mod drivers is for free (and in my opinion, did contributed some kind of "helps" in many way for Nvidia's products) and even better than Nvidia's original drivers. So far, Nvidia should thank, respect and support NGOHQ like they did to the others.
I can't wait to see how NVIDIA response back!


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## a111087 (Jul 6, 2007)

If nVidia started to threat that means that they have some pretty good reason to do it (the one that they didn't mention)
i don't support it though ...


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## erocker (Jul 6, 2007)

This isn't new. Nshitia have been screwing over their customers for the past twenty years!  Just wait younger people, you will be screwed over eventually too!


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## erocker (Jul 6, 2007)

Doesn't seem to be a particularly busy site.  How are thier ATi drivers?  I'd like to give something else a try.


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## tkpenalty (Jul 6, 2007)

erocker said:


> This isn't new. *Nshitia* have been screwing over their customers for the past twenty years!  Just wait younger people, you will be screwed over eventually too!



Thats quite original...


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## Seany1212 (Jul 6, 2007)

Why are these companies becoming like the mafia? firstly that microsoft one now this :shadedshu


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## cjoyce1980 (Jul 6, 2007)

whats wrong nvidia....... is someone making better drivers than you??!!!

he is an idea....... OFFER THEM A F**KING JOB YOU BUNCH OF RETARED SAUSAGES!!!!!


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## von kain (Jul 6, 2007)

a few days back when a was sayng to pay for our drivers none believe me after a few days i believe there is gonna be a forceware pro edition..........


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## hat (Jul 6, 2007)

lol, paying for drivers. Hey, lets pirate drivers!


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## Wayward (Jul 6, 2007)

Another reason to thank my lucky stars I'm with AMD/ATI.  After reading Nvidia's callous threats, and then looking at AMD/ATI's casual and generous tone toward the community, it makes me wonder how I could ever stand Nvidia at all.

Nvidia should take a page from AMD/ATI's book.


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## newconroer (Jul 6, 2007)

I was just waiting for him to say something about Nvidia being Nazis or jew haters...


He started getting redundant, when he hit the part about "psychological warfare," I was thinking "ok, done reading this..."


@Wayward, ATI is becoming more open because it's just a business strategy, to get more customers, don't think they're saints. Nvidia has a right to protection of their products, even if they go off the deep end.

I think ATI should take a page from Nvidia's book, then they might not be getting their asses handed to them so often.


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## Wile E (Jul 6, 2007)

newconroer said:


> I think ATI should take a page from Nvidia's book, then they might not be getting their asses handed to them so often.


I think you should qualify that statement.


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## Wayward (Jul 6, 2007)

newconroer said:


> @Wayward, ATI is becoming more open because it's just a business strategy, to get more customers, don't think they're saints. Nvidia has a right to protection of their products, even if they go off the deep end.
> 
> I think ATI should take a page from Nvidia's book, then they might not be getting their asses handed to them so often.



Business stratgey or not, it follows good consumer relations rationale.  I don't care if they are saints or devils, if they openly support modded drivers, they get a star in my book.

Nvidia has a responsibility to sell products that work, if they don't and other people release fixes for free, they should be grateful instead of belligerent.


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## Xerphon (Jul 6, 2007)

Hah, well screw them. I just cancelled my order with newegg for an 8800GTX, I'll spend my money on ATI instead. I've always used the modded drivers, for all of my cards. If Nvidia wants to stop people from helping to make their product better and their customers happy, that's just stupid business in my opinion. Well done Nvidia, $600 you just lost from me!


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## newconroer (Jul 6, 2007)

Nvidia does sell products that work; to what extent and for how many people in a world of modified and overclocked computing (also inhabited by newbies) is defined with 'BLAH;' because there's soooo many things that can go wrong.

ATI has their share of similar issues with similar products so, really that's a moot point.

One would assume that they might be grateful, but to suggest the SHOULD be is a bit out of the average end users league. You must consider that there's gotta be tons of Nvidia technical support that's wasted on customers who are complaining about Nvidia products, where the tech support finds out later that the customer is using modified drivers and software. 

This is similar to the arguement of art being free or not. Some people think that they have the right to distribute art from any artist, because it will help promote and iconify that artist and their work; which logically would suggest that it's in someway 'helping' said artist(S). Yet, there's others, who say bluntly that it's not your right to assume the role of campaigning for the artist's best interests. Now, add in a business side to it, and it becomes more complex.

Nvidia is like any other company, they put out a product, when people modify that product and it has the potential to harm the image of Nvidia, then they are within their rights to be concerned. Now to what extent those rights hold water within the lay of the law, most of us don't know. 

This comes off to me like car manufacturers, who state that certain products when used with their automobiles, void the warranty. Then there's some manufacturers who openly embrace the use of modified aftermarket products, because it (in their minds) helps to promote the vehicle or the status of the company.

For the last several years, we've seen some automakers putting out 'tuner' style cars, because they think it will help make sales, and boost their image amongst automobile consumers. And in some ways, it does work. But for the former automaker, they have a right to not want their image or their sales affected by third parties, who go and take their base vehicle, modify it in some way, then start redistributing it to the public(while it still carries the badge of the original vehicle), with or without warning labels(that's a big ass label lol). Of course, if there's no money involved, then there's probably not much they can do, but like Nvidia they have the perrogative to not be happy with it. And if they think they have some legal standing, then they may make a threat, like Nvidia has here. 

I just don't see why people are surprised. If Nvidia wants to pick on someone, for whatever reason, then that's up to them. Whether the law will support it, that's another issue. But it's far from shocking, and the excuses and retaliation comments that people come up with are just absolutley silly.


@Wile

That statement is based off of the fabled and much hyped 2900 being competitive to the GTS and not the GTX,(also taking into account the Ultra exists AND the 8900 is in development).


@Xerphon

That is such ignorance. And this is an example of what I mentioned above concerning people freaking out. What do you really care about some rinky-dink website and their products? Do you hold or show patronage to that Israeli site, and to such an extent that you would basically blindly inhibit yourself from obtaining what you want in effort to promote some sort of boycott? Come on?!? You wanted the GTX, it's an Nvidia product. Nvidia doesn't worship Satan, slaughter babies or committ genocide. That's like people saying "Oh, well, I'm going to renounce my American citizenship because I don't like the way Bush is handling things.'  RIGHT...sure....


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## zOaib (Jul 6, 2007)

i am glad ATI came out with the new 2900xt 1gb ddr4 , cause i sold my 8800 GTS , and bought the RED GUY again ..................... which is priced just right and has the balls to even challenge the ultra ..................... go ATI u canadians rock.


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## zOaib (Jul 6, 2007)

Xerphon said:


> Hah, well screw them. I just cancelled my order with newegg for an 8800GTX, I'll spend my money on ATI instead. I've always used the modded drivers, for all of my cards. If Nvidia wants to stop people from helping to make their product better and their customers happy, that's just stupid business in my opinion. Well done Nvidia, $600 you just lost from me!



480 BUCKS WILL GET U THE 1GB DDR4 VERSION OF THE 2900 BABY !


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## Wayward (Jul 6, 2007)

newconroer said:


> One would assume that they might be grateful, but to suggest the SHOULD be is a bit out of the average end users league. You must consider that there's gotta be tons of Nvidia technical support that's wasted on customers who are complaining about Nvidia products, where the tech support finds out later that the customer is using modified drivers and software.


If they were calling tech support, do you really think they would be using modded drivers?  People who need tech support probably don't even know modded drivers exist, let alone how to use them.



newconroer said:


> Nvidia is like any other company, they put out a product, when people modify that product and it has the potential to harm the image of Nvidia, then they are within their rights to be concerned. Now to what extent those rights hold water within the lay of the law, most of us don't know.


How does fixing Nvidia's mistakes harm Nvidia's image?  If they were worried about image, they would have kept their mouth shut.



newconroer said:


> I just don't see why people are surprised. If Nvidia wants to pick on someone, for whatever reason, then that's up to them. Whether the law will support it, that's another issue. But it's far from shocking, and the excuses and retaliation comments that people come up with are just absolutley silly.


I believe many of us here think your defense of Nvidia is absolutely silly.



newconroer said:


> @Wile
> 
> That statement is based off of the fabled and much hyped 2900 being competitive to the GTS and not the GTX,(also taking into account the Ultra exists AND the 8900 is in development).


You forgot the 1GB 2900xt.  The gap is closing, fast.  So lets not say ATI is getting it's ass handed to it when the preformance lead is forever uncertain, and the race is so close.  You imply that ATI is so behind they can't compete.



newconroer said:


> @Xerphon
> 
> That is such ignorance. And this is an example of what I mentioned above concerning people freaking out. What do you really care about some rinky-dink website and their products? Do you hold or show patronage to that Israeli site, and to such an extent that you would basically blindly inhibit yourself from obtaining what you want in effort to promote some sort of boycott? Come on?!? You wanted the GTX, it's an Nvidia product. Nvidia doesn't worship Satan, slaughter babies or committ genocide. That's like people saying "Oh, well, I'm going to renounce my American citizenship because I don't like the way Bush is handling things.'  RIGHT...sure....



Ignorance?  More like fear of not having drivers.  People depend on modified drivers to maintain a working system.  If Nvidia is going to threaten that, then maybe one might not want to spend $600 on one of their products.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 6, 2007)

Doesnt anyone find it strange that out of 4-5 teams out there that mod drivers Nvidia only threatened NGO ? Perhaps theres more than meets the eye....


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## DaMulta (Jul 6, 2007)




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## Mussels (Jul 6, 2007)

as for the legal complaints about dropping support: Nvidia STILL claim to have a unified driver, for motherboards and GPU's.

Its not unified, because they keep segregating it - yet with a little swapping around in an .inf file, its suddenly unified again. They don't alter the driver, they simply allow it to install on 'unsupported' cards - and without it older card users and/or laptop users would be screwed and forced to upgrade.

All they need is to provide a unified driver for say, Geforce 2 through geforce 7, for windows XP and geforce 5 through 7 for vista - one stable driver and the majority of people wont care.

Geforce 8 series are still new so yes, i can understand it having a separate driver (particularly if its unstable/beta) but that doesnt mean fixes found along the way shouldn't be passed backwards into unified drivers. ATI do this monthly, but Nvidia customers can be stuck with one driver for years.

Who here wouldnt mind say, a new unified driver every 3-6 months for older products, with monthly for the latest series? 
(The reason here being bug fixes: if TV out support is broken for all cards, or a majority - that kind of fix matters even for a geforce 2 in XP as much an 8800)


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 6, 2007)

Mussels Nvidia makes their newest drivers mostly for the latest GPUs just like ATI does.
For example i used the latest Catalysts with a 9800pro and i got LESS Fps than the version i was using in that rig which was 1 year old...However the latest Catalysts provide a boost in the X2900..
So why should Nvidia provide support for lets say the gf 4ti or the Gf5 since their drivers wouldnt have any impact and if they would it would propably be negative ? Doesnt make sense...


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## Wile E (Jul 6, 2007)

newconroer said:


> @Wile
> 
> That statement is based off of the fabled and much hyped 2900 being competitive to the GTS and not the GTX,(also taking into account the Ultra exists AND the 8900 is in development).


It's intended to compete with the GTS, not the GTX. And the jury is still out on the performance champ, anyway. But that's not the point here. 

"So often" is the phrase that I thought should be qualified. Looking back, it seems to me that ATI has been in the lead more often, with a few bumps in the road here and there.


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 6, 2007)

I jumped ship and went with ATI 2900XT becuase Nvidia driver support and lack of customer releations just plain SUCKS.... I spent the last 6 months dealing the the worst drivers for Vista that we just plain not usable with my EVGA 7900GTKO. All I ever got wheile trying to use my PC was this:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/Achaleon/HPIM0390.jpg

And numerous bug reports to Nvidia got me no-where, not even a responce that I was breathing.... However my first bug report with ATI was with their ticket system in which I had a dialog with a HUMAN, can you belive that?? and guess what they acnowledged that there was a driver bug and reported to the driver team...

NVIDIA has gotten up so far on its horse it could care less about its customers that do not have the 8800... Lets not forget the 7900 is no 9800 card, it is the model GPU right before the 8800 so considering it an outdated card just does not fly.. I spent thousand on their products building machines for PC gamers and never even considered ATI. Sorry ATI, But now forget it would never consider using Nvidia again...

The class action suite that have been threatened against Nvidia for poor driver support and selling the 8800 as Vista ready, well I am no lawyer but I think the claims are justifiable. ATI all the way man and not turning back, benchmark this or benchmark that, more power less power, mean nothing to me as long as the company I purchase from cares to hear from its customer base and actually listens to them when they have issues... 

Rock on NGOHQ.com, you are doing the community a great service from a whoring company who could care less about people who have supported them and made them what they are!!!

Thank you ATI!


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## mdm-adph (Jul 6, 2007)

Seany1212 said:


> Why are these companies becoming like the mafia? firstly that microsoft one now this :shadedshu



Buddy -- companies ain't _never_ been any different.  Read up a little bit about American History around the turn of the 19th/20th century -- companies back then were the _epitome_ of evil, and they're just starting to get that way again.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 6, 2007)

MarcusTaz are you really trying to say that ATI has better drivers than Nvidia ???
Ever since the first RAGE GPU ATI has had driver problems...Even now with the X2900 their drivers have worse AA support than the X1900 series...As for drivers updates Nvidia releases 3 times as many drivers as ATI...Yes 2 out of 3 are Beta but at least they are something...


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## Wile E (Jul 6, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> .As for drivers updates Nvidia releases 3 times as many drivers as ATI...Yes 2 out of 3 are Beta but at least they are something...


The number of releases doesn't matter if none of them do their job properly. You may not be having issues, but look at all those that are, especially in Vista. That was one of the major deciding factors on going for the 2900 for me.


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 6, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> MarcusTaz are you really trying to say that ATI has better drivers than Nvidia ???
> Ever since the first RAGE GPU ATI has had driver problems...Even now with the X2900 their drivers have worse AA support than the X1900 series...As for drivers updates Nvidia releases 3 times as many drivers as ATI...Yes 2 out of 3 are Beta but at least they are something...




HellasVagabond I know you are a Nvidia fan , I have established that in other threads with you and I am mearly stating the facts that yes indeed ATI Vista drivers are light years more stable then Nvidia. I am not going to waste my time debating this with you as my personal experiance with the 2 brought me to this conclusion.. Nvidia is struggling to make a stable driver to just run without crashing with the, dreaded Nvlddmkm Stopped responding just to name one... There are so many people at nvnews.net that have just about had enough of Nvidia and I was one of them... if you do not belive me go read for yourself:

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=55

As for me my Rig now runs as stable as it ever did with Vista....

As for Nvidia drivers....


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## spud107 (Jul 6, 2007)

lol @ this . .


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## Xerphon (Jul 6, 2007)

newconroer said:


> @Xerphon
> 
> That is such ignorance. And this is an example of what I mentioned above concerning people freaking out. What do you really care about some rinky-dink website and their products? Do you hold or show patronage to that Israeli site, and to such an extent that you would basically blindly inhibit yourself from obtaining what you want in effort to promote some sort of boycott? Come on?!? You wanted the GTX, it's an Nvidia product. Nvidia doesn't worship Satan, slaughter babies or committ genocide. That's like people saying "Oh, well, I'm going to renounce my American citizenship because I don't like the way Bush is handling things.'  RIGHT...sure....



In no way am I being ignorant. I personally don't use NGO's drivers, I'm stating modified drivers in general. My personal preference, after spending however many hundreds of dollars on a product, I'd like to have it working to the best of it's capabilities. For the most part, I've had more success with modified drivers than those that are actually put out by the manufacturer. Sure, I wanted a GTX, but I'll be more than happy with a 2900XT. All I want is a good DirectX 10 card, and luckily there is more than one option for that now. I understand your point about it being Nvidia's product and being there choice. Just as it is my choice to decide on whether or not I'll continue to buy their product. Ignorance? Please...


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 6, 2007)

Yep that is the thread that references the possible Class Action Lawsuit againt them...

That is just how frustrated people are with them...


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## spud107 (Jul 6, 2007)

all i see in that thread is non 8800 owners complaining and jumping ship to ati, or 8800 owners saying how good the drivers are,


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 6, 2007)

spud107 said:


> all i see in that thread is non 8800 owners complaining and jumping ship to ati, or 8800 owners saying how good the drivers are,




mate the 8800 owners are far from happy...


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## newtekie1 (Jul 6, 2007)

I am really starting to get annoyed with both ATI and NVidia.  NVidia for not being able to provide proper software for their hardware and ATI for not even being able to provide acceptable hardware.


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## spud107 (Jul 6, 2007)

i didnt read through too many pages lol, so just the odd few happy nv owners,


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## zOaib (Jul 6, 2007)

101


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## LonGun (Jul 6, 2007)

spud107 said:


> all i see in that thread is non 8800 owners complaining and jumping ship to ati, or 8800 owners saying how good the drivers are,



EKKK! Speaking of myself as an 8800 owner, getting this card is a big regret.
- Drivers that were released by Nvidia for my 8800 card "embarassed" me with the games I bought---> I'm not asking my card to get me to the new games' max setting but at least run them as an 8800GTS suppposed to run. Until I downloaded the modded drivers from the modders around the web, the games run better. I can go on and on about the modded drivers and how thankful I was to them.
- When I had problem running Stalkers with Vista, I contacted them and guess what? NO ANSWERS, not even an automated-message to confirm your request/question.
- Many of my good buddies here and at online web forums suffered support from them. I care for people who cares for me, like many of my good friends. 8800 owners are no difference. Yet I'm still trying to move on carrying along the experience I've learned by using the modded drivers. Without them, I'd return the card a long as time ago.
- Now seeing one of the sites got "picked" on!!?? I've been followed the story over at NGO, read on comments and what people around there and many other forums have to say about it, from the beginning 'til now. Yes it isn't my business, but it's always something to know and keep in mind about.
- ...


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 6, 2007)

Right on man Nvidia lack of direct support to it's owners it plain wrong... Help those who help you by buying your product and this is the main reason I got turned off and left them..

NGOHQ is doing nothing wrong but just trying to help out the community. Heck if you post on Nvidia's official forums you have to be careful or they just plain delete your post without warning...


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 6, 2007)

So the fact that ATI drivers dont crash in Vista is the decisive factor here ?
That the AA in the X2900 sucks aint ? Various game incompatibilites ( more than nvidia proven through the years ) aint ? The fact that their VIVO software sucks aint ?


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 6, 2007)

Bla. Vivo rocks man, where do you get your info from... Whatever....


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 6, 2007)

I had the 9700pro-9800pro-9800xt-X1950XT cards and the X2900...With the exception of the X2900 which has a HDMI the rest of the cards couldnt easily be configured to play with TVs. Even the X1950XT couldnt syncronize with my 55' TV so im getting my info from ME.


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## erocker (Jul 6, 2007)

The only thing good about Nvidia is the 8800.  They made an outstanding card.  Unfortunately, like all of thier other products thier driver support is crap, and I don't ever see that changing.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jul 6, 2007)

Id say that Nvidia have bitten off more then they can chew....

& as NGO have come out of the fight snarling like a rabid dog about to bite into something flesh Id say that Nvidia best drop the charges to avoid further loss of face


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## DRDNA (Jul 6, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> So the fact that ATI drivers dont crash in Vista is the decisive factor here ?
> That the AA in the X2900 sucks aint ? Various game incompatibilites ( more than nvidia proven through the years ) aint ? The fact that their VIVO software sucks aint ?



lol......the vivo converter converts video faster than I have seen ever...I can convert a 9 gig file in less than 5 minutes convert from AVI to any form of Mpeg or divx ...lol lets see you do that on an nvidia rig!!! 

PS some of the best quality conversions I have ever seen too.
Video never out of sync with sound .
I will race any non ati rig in video conversion ...even you killa C2D guys !!


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 6, 2007)

Some people dont even read what i say


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## wickerman (Jul 7, 2007)

Speaking as an XP user who owns an 8800GTS, I have had no problems with any of the 8800 drivers, I have had nothing to complain about for any of my games, image quality has been great and performance at 1920x1200 has been exceptional, Ive yet to see any serious problems occur with any system running XP with the 8800 series that hasnt been addressed, or expected. 

Now speaking of vista, I do have my complaints with the drivers. But Nvidia is not the only company that is seriously lacking in vista support, I have a system running a 9600 AIW and another running an x1300 AIW. I consistently get graphical corruption on my desktop with the 9600 to the point where the entire screen gets unreadable and I have to move the mouse around the whole screen before I can get a visible desktop, the latest drivers from AMD have seemed to have fixed this issue, but I built the box from day 1 of vista release and it has taken quite a while to be addressed. I should also mention that I still have NO capture or tv tuner support for either of the cards, making the main draw for the cards completely useless. AMD seem to have much better support in Vista for the games, but they are neglecting quite a heavy portion of us, the only saving grace is the fact that most people can go out and buy a supported Hauppauge tuner to use instead. Nvidias support in vista is terrible, I have no problem repeating that...but Vista is Vista, and probably about 60% of the hardware and software out there does not function to its fullest either, so I really dont think vista should be grounds for any argument about software or hardware issues from any company.

As for how I feel about Nvidias actions against NGOHQ, I do see Nvidias side of things. NGOHQ have received requests to remove content in the past, and have chosen not to comply with any of them. When things became elevated because of either (or both...) sides, NGO didnt back down and continued to attack Nvidia. Sure I dont mind seeing modified drivers but when you modify work done by someone else, if they dont like it you should agree to remove it and either rework things or simply avoid trying to piss off the company. Im sure TPU would not like it if someone took their tools, modified them, and then re-released them without any approval from TPU, if the work was done to improve things or not, its still the property of the creator. 
Its nice to see sites stand up for their rights, but in this case I think NGOHQ are just doing it to get attention and sympathy. They complain a lot about Nvidia, but does anyone else notice the only video card reviews done by NGOHQ are of Nvidia? 6600GT, 7300GT, 7600GS, 7800GT, and 7800GTX, it seems to me that if Nvidia has a grudge against them NGO would have a reason to heavily criticize Nvidia, yet every review scores a gold award and a 9/10 or 10/10, and a complete lack of reviews for ATI/AMD or even any modern video cards, really makes me wonder why I would want to use their modified drivers when the site itself doesnt prove any advantage to using them.


It seems to me that all NGOHQ wants to do is cause trouble so they can get some attention. Their articles are poorly written, behind the times, and their best work is to be considered mediocre at best in comparison to the amount of effort put forth by other, more serious contributers to the hardware community. Their 5 minutes of fame will soon fade and their website will continue to be ranked just slightly above the occasional rantings of the cynical hardware blogger.

I'll support a website that is being oppressed by "The Man", but this is just BS and I dont see how Nvidia or anyone else could take these guys seriously.


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## Wile E (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> I had the 9700pro-9800pro-9800xt-X1950XT cards and the X2900...With the exception of the X2900 which has a HDMI the rest of the cards couldnt easily be configured to play with TVs. Even the X1950XT couldnt syncronize with my 55' TV so im getting my info from ME.


User error. I have never, and I mean never, had a problem running a TV with any of my ATI cards.

In fact, I think you are thinking of the wrong company, because one of the biggest driver issues that pushed me away from an 8800 is....you guessed it, TV out not working in Vista. That doesn't even mention some of the other missing features, like fan control and the like. There's more than gaming performance to consider for hardware this expensive. If it's supposed to be a feature, I want it to work.

You also keep bringing up game incompatibilities and AA issues on the 2900. Please be more specific.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

User Error ?? Ive been in the PC world ever since the 8086 and ive been a tech since 1998 so User error doesnt apply to me my friend. I dont know what kind of TVs you use but im talking about a state of the art 55' inch 1080p TV so the X1950XT shouldnt have a problem producing an 1080p FULLSCREEN signal but it did. On the other hand the 8800 worked flawlessly.

More specific when it comes to AA ? I think every site that has Reviewed the X2900 has encountered AA IQ errors so i cant be more specific


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> User Error ?? Ive been in the PC world ever since the 8086 and ive been a tech since 1998 so User error doesnt apply to me my friend. I dont know what kind of TVs you use but im talking about a state of the art 55' inch 1080p TV so the X1950XT shouldnt have a problem producing an 1080p FULLSCREEN signal but it did. On the other hand the 8800 worked flawlessly.
> 
> More specific when it comes to AA ? I think every site that has Reviewed the X2900 has encountered AA IQ errors so i cant be more specific




and nvnews.net has plenty of Nvidia enthusists...


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## Wile E (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> User Error ?? Ive been in the PC world ever since the 8086 and ive been a tech since 1998 so User error doesnt apply to me my friend. I dont know what kind of TVs you use but im talking about a state of the art 55' inch 1080p TV so the X1950XT shouldnt have a problem producing an 1080p FULLSCREEN signal but it did. On the other hand the 8800 worked flawlessly.
> 
> More specific when it comes to AA ? I think every site that has Reviewed the X2900 has encountered AA IQ errors so i cant be more specific


You're the only one I've heard that has problems with a 1080p set, so yes, user error. The fact that you are a tech, and have been doing this since the 8086 days doesn't mean you are exempt from making errors. I only have a 720p Samsung LCD, but one of my good friends has a 37" 1080p Westinghouse LCD, that even my X1800XT handled flawlessly. Haven't had the opportunity to test with the 2900 yet.

As far as the AA issue, I just don't know what everyone is specifically referring to. Just want more info.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

Google it and find more info.
And like i said to claim that a guy thats been using PCs for almost 19 years made the same mistake again and again with a Card and with another card he didnt is weird to say the least.
Incompatibility with the TV set ? Perhaps, but even so its still a reason to dislike ATI cards.


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## Wile E (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> Google it and find more info.
> And like i said to claim that a guy thats been using PCs for almost 19 years made the same mistake again and again with a Card and with another card he didnt is weird to say the least.
> Incompatibility with the TV set ? Perhaps, but even so its still a reason to dislike ATI cards.


As is not having Fan control, or proper TV out support in Vista, for nVidia.

PS: I've been using computers since the 286 days, so I've been around for a while, myself. I still make mistakes, as do you. Nobody's perfect.


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## DRDNA (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> User Error ?? Ive been in the PC world ever since the 8086 and ive been a tech since 1998 so User error doesnt apply to me my friend. I dont know what kind of TVs you use but im talking about a state of the art 55' inch 1080p TV so the X1950XT shouldnt have a problem producing an 1080p FULLSCREEN signal but it did. On the other hand the 8800 worked flawlessly.
> 
> More specific when it comes to AA ? I think every site that has Reviewed the X2900 has encountered AA IQ errors so i cant be more specific



No problem with my rig at those settings ...I run 1920x1080 with my 37inch ..works fine with single card config and crossfire config  ...no issues at all, right from the start no issues...I also have the ATI pci HDTV card and it runs flawless, absolutely perfect !!! My rig is constant vivo and while watching HDTV and righting the video to disk(part of vivo) my CPU usage is 5%-8% seems like a very well done app...I also have a x1950xtx and master never had a gaming issue ,so I guess I am fortunate as I have never had issues with the 9600xt or the X800XT PE or the X850XT PE or the x1800xtx or x1800xtx(master)I still have them all too and they all have been pushed to the limits and never ever a failed card or inconpatabilties...GUESS I am fortunate or just maybe ATI have something good going on.Thats just my 2cents...I cant speak on Nvidia cuz I have never used them personally , although I do support their hardware and software on a technician level.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

Well i on the other hand had countless driver problems with ATI cards..Perhaps you didnt notice them cause most of them were Game-Based. ( Black Waters in Tomb Raider , Awefull Shadows in Homeworld , Broken Graphics in Splinter Cell etc etc etc. )


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## WarEagleAU (Jul 7, 2007)

Honestly didnt have time to read through the huge amount of posts and the length of the posts, but I dont see what the big deal is. Especially if its beneficial to the End user.


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## MarcusTaz (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> Well i on the other hand had countless driver problems with ATI cards..Perhaps you didnt notice them cause most of them were Game-Based. ( Black Waters in Tomb Raider , Awefull Shadows in Homeworld , Broken Graphics in Splinter Cell etc etc etc. )




Dude enough already... PLEEEEEEEASE this is getting sooooooo old and off topic.. go hang out on nvnews.net if you are such a Nvidia fanboy.....


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## Ketxxx (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> So the fact that ATI drivers dont crash in Vista is the decisive factor here ?
> That the AA in the X2900 sucks aint ? Various game incompatibilites ( more than nvidia proven through the years ) aint ? The fact that their VIVO software sucks aint ?



Your ignorance is truely blinding. Please dont make me go digging up nvidia vs. ATI drivers to utterly put the fact to rest ATI drivers ARE far better than nvidia drivers, their not perfect by any means, but they are far better. FYI I have owned BOTH ATI and nvidia cards in equal quantities, so I'm well capable to speak from both sides of the line.


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## Grings (Jul 7, 2007)

I still do own both makes of card (8800 and x1800), and yes, ATI's drivers are far better than nvidia's, period.
My ati card dosent do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoQUMWqEcao
And its (svideo)t.v. output works properly


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## mixa (Jul 7, 2007)

NVIDIA ..... they are mostly known for their lack of support and driver issues than anything else.Only the client can punish them, which may not be that far.
I hope the guys from NGOHQ will keep the good work up.


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## spud107 (Jul 7, 2007)

come to think of it there lack of support affects 2 friends and me, iv got an nforce2 chipset an i havent seen nvidia update those drivers for a while, need mod drivers there,
1 has the nforce2 too, but with onboard geforce, could only get that working properly with a set of modded drivers, couldnt run anything because of corruption with originals,
another has an asrock 939sli32, uli chipset, il say no more lol


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

The only reason i see for the fact that people support ATI drivers is perhaps that only a handfull of people owned ATI cards prior to the X8XX series and truly witnessed what Bad drivers Ati had back then...Not that it doesnt now but yes they have fixed them in comparison to back then.

@MarcusTaz : WHEN and IF i ever need you to tell me what to do i will ask you, meanwhile i dont think that you or anyone else has the authority to tell me to leave and go to another forum just because im not an ATI fanboy like you and Countless others in here who only know to yell at people that like Nvidia when at the same time they like ATI...Its stupid to say the least.
And just for the record i am a long time member in Nvnews along with many more that have nothing to do with Nvidia including the official Ati forums.


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## Ketxxx (Jul 7, 2007)

Quite the contrary. There are just many folk who are much more open minded and accept ATi drivers ARE better. Catalyst for some years running was awarded industrys most stable software package, surely that must tell you something.

As for ATi drivers in the beginning.. yes they were terrible, ATi were a young upstart company learning the ropes, nvidia were the same at one point in time, ATi only had driver problems way back when Super 7 was one of the greatest socket types, and back then, the real contenders were still 3DFX and nvidia, so your argument is invalid here also.

My first "real" graphics card was a GF2 MX 64MB, it was an awful product. The drivers were so bad it would not even install properly, I even bought another MX from a different manufacturer, same problem. I promptly returned both cards and bought a Hercules 3D Prophet 4500, low and behold, it worked flawlessly and was based on the Kyro2 chipset, it also clocked pretty well too. As for my first Radeon, it was a 9000 64MB, not a special card in the slightest, it did work perfectly though with the drivers that were available at the time.

Now I understand you may want to go on a tangent again so fine fine whatever, but as you go on your tangent you should be aware I, and many other users have owned many cards from both sides, for me these cards would be;

GF2 MX 64MB
3D Prophet 4500 64MB
Radeon 9000 64MB
Radeon 9600Pro
FX5700 Ultra
X800XL
6800GT
X1950Pro

I make that a ratio of 3:4 across a long timeline, both companies having plenty of time to mature and gain experience, ATi drivers have just been superior, period. nVidias drivers could not even play theme hospital, causing all sorts of display oddities, ATI drivers on the other hand, had no problem what so ever, thats just one example of many, many problems I could bring attention to. Another would be, does anyone remember the WHQL nvidia drivers that were released that BROKE SLi? Thats hardly the kind of driver that should be making it past WHQL..


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## Agility (Jul 7, 2007)

Nvidia got hit right back in the face.


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## Agility (Jul 7, 2007)

wickerman said:


> Speaking as an XP user who owns an 8800GTS, I have had no problems with any of the 8800 drivers, I have had nothing to complain about for any of my games, image quality has been great and performance at 1920x1200 has been exceptional, Ive yet to see any serious problems occur with any system running XP with the 8800 series that hasnt been addressed, or expected.
> 
> Now speaking of vista, I do have my complaints with the drivers. But Nvidia is not the only company that is seriously lacking in vista support, I have a system running a 9600 AIW and another running an x1300 AIW. I consistently get graphical corruption on my desktop with the 9600 to the point where the entire screen gets unreadable and I have to move the mouse around the whole screen before I can get a visible desktop, the latest drivers from AMD have seemed to have fixed this issue, but I built the box from day 1 of vista release and it has taken quite a while to be addressed. I should also mention that I still have NO capture or tv tuner support for either of the cards, making the main draw for the cards completely useless. AMD seem to have much better support in Vista for the games, but they are neglecting quite a heavy portion of us, the only saving grace is the fact that most people can go out and buy a supported Hauppauge tuner to use instead. Nvidias support in vista is terrible, I have no problem repeating that...but Vista is Vista, and probably about 60% of the hardware and software out there does not function to its fullest either, so I really dont think vista should be grounds for any argument about software or hardware issues from any company.
> 
> ...



Why don't you compare TNT2 Vs 2900XT?


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

Agility i find it amusing that you have as your sig something that was directed to me but on the other hand i will kindly request that you remove it...


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## Agility (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> Agility i find it amusing that you have as your sig something that was directed to me but on the other hand i will kindly request that you remove it...



 I added it cause it was nice. Not ment it to direct to anyone. Got permission from Wile E too (I think he's the author).


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

I know but that doesnt mean its right...It was infact directed to me and i just dont like beeing reminded of such a small minded line ( Im not refering to Wille but to the nature of that line ).


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## Agility (Jul 7, 2007)

Well i know how you feel but you can't say it's reminding you of bad events. If bad things reminds you of your past irl then you're gonna scream and yell at it? Lol......no offence.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

I did ask kindly


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## Agility (Jul 7, 2007)

Ah my bad about the "yell and scream". Well sorry but i won't change it.


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## zekrahminator (Jul 7, 2007)

Agility said:


> Ah my bad about the "yell and scream". Well sorry but i won't change it.


I insist.


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## DRDNA (Jul 7, 2007)

ahh oh ! this thread has gone a bit wacky between ati and Nvidia oh well that tends to happen ...srry if i contributed to the wackyness


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## Dippyskoodlez (Jul 7, 2007)

von kain said:


> a few days back when a was sayng to pay for our drivers none believe me after a few days i believe there is gonna be a forceware pro edition..........



Yeah, its called fireGL/Quadro.

This isn;t the first time Nvidia has wanted virgin drivers only from them..

It was modded drivers that caught them cheating the first time anyways. 


HellasVagabond said:


> User Error ?? Ive been in the PC world ever since the 8086 and ive been a tech since 1998 so User error doesnt apply to me my friend.



tsk. tsk. tsk.


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

Having different opinions and supporting different sides isnt something new or something bad. We see it everyday from different football , basketball teams up to the elections.
The bad thing is when people start Insulting others just because they dont share the same point of view / beliefs. Thats what i despise.

Dippy both ATI and Nvidia have cheated when it comes to drivers and thats a proven fact


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## Dippyskoodlez (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> Dippy both ATI and Nvidia have cheated when it comes to drivers and thats a proven fact



I never denied either of them cheating.

Nvidia just threw a temper tantrum when busted.And then released a new driver.

With the same cheats.


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## Ketxxx (Jul 7, 2007)

HellasVagabond said:


> Dippy both ATI and Nvidia have cheated when it comes to drivers and thats a proven fact




Actually, the "optimisations" ATi deployed were proven to be legitimate optimisations, rather than aggressive driver hacks, like nvidia used.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Jul 7, 2007)

Ketxxx said:


> Actually, the "optimisations" ATi deployed were proven to be legitimate optimisations, rather than aggressive driver hacks, like nvidia used.



yeah, Nvidia actually stopped rendering certain parts of the screen as a whole. Extremetech was one of the sites that called them out on this, and they had also went after Omega for modding drivers around that time frame..


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 7, 2007)

True Nvidia did that in order to prevail in 3dMark.....However lets not discuss the Half Life 2 case where Valve admited that they had it optimised for ATI cards thus they delayed it a few months to remove the optimisations...Not that they did but ok 
( I still remember ATI giving away Half Life 2 with their cards and now they give away the next expansion to be.....And i still hear from people that valve doesnt optimise games for ATI  )


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## Ketxxx (Jul 8, 2007)

Yes.. thats interesting, considering nvidia pay off countless software houses to "optimise" for their hardware.. yet ATi do it once and get all the nvidiots whining and bitching about it. Your argument is pointless, again.


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## Mussels (Jul 8, 2007)

Wile E said:


> As is not having Fan control, or proper TV out support in Vista, for nVidia.
> 
> PS: I've been using computers since the 286 days, so I've been around for a while, myself. I still make mistakes, as do you. Nobody's perfect.



fan control works in the latest drivers - it was only MANUAL fan control that ever broke, which didnt concern most owners of the card.

I certainly have more trouble with my ATI cards - my x1800XL cant get its Vivo/TV out driver to install (yellow exclamation mark in dev man) so there goes that feature - and i have an x1650 that crashes all day long (constant VPU recovers) that works fine in XP.

Both sides of the fence have issues here - Nvidia may release more drivers, but they have no order or support (152.45 is newer than 160.02 for example)

ATI release monthly drivers, offically supported for all OS's - but uh, they certainly miss some big features/bugs for months at a time.

as for games optimisations/cheats - both have done it over the years, ATI just did it to an acceptable level (truly optmisations as opposed to cheats.)


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## Demos_sav (Jul 8, 2007)

Well I have a 8800 and even in Windows XP I had drivers issues. So I found me some drivers that got leaked out of nVidia and was modded by a team. Damn they are absolutely GREAT. 

@nVidia: Don't "ban" the modded drivers. We need them.

I am not an nVidia/ATI fan. I just grab the best(or one of the best) performance card available at the time of buying


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## HellasVagabond (Jul 8, 2007)

Ketxxx said:


> Yes.. thats interesting, considering nvidia pay off countless software houses to "optimise" for their hardware.. yet ATi do it once and get all the* nvidiots *whining and bitching about it. Your argument is pointless, again.



Ketxxx i think i stated my opinion about insulting people more than just once but people like you keep going and going and going...........


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## zekrahminator (Jul 8, 2007)

As far as I can tell, the subject of ridiculously expensive video cards is a touchy one. 

So everyone shut up and realize that some people have a different video card than you. 

This thread has gone on for far too long, and has gotten way out of hand.


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