# Microsoft Reconsiders: No More Forced Updates in Windows 10



## Raevenlord (Apr 5, 2019)

One of the big no-nos for some users looking to upgrade do Windows 10 was the fact that Microsoft enforced constant, 6-month update cycles independent of whether users wanted them or not. This move was done to streamline the update process and keep all users at parity when it comes to important security and feature updates that Microsoft considered relevant. However, it seems Microsoft is now abandoning this practice, which means that users that like to know exactly what is being changed in their systems - and at a time of their convenience - now have one less reason to not upgrade.

Not only will Windows no longer push updates inadvertently, now home users will also have the ability to not only pause updates, but also remove them. There's a caveat, though - you won't be able to postpone feature updates forever. As it stands, Microsoft has an 18 month "end of life" period for major Windows 10 versions, which means that after your 18 months of postponing updates are up (and all of the kinks have been ironed out), you PC will still update to the latest version. There are some other details, which I will transcribe from the Microsoft blog post for your perusal.



 





> Download and install now option provides users a separate control to initiate the installation of a feature update on eligible devices with no known key blocking compatibility issues. Users can still "Check for updates" to get monthly quality and security updates. Windows will automatically initiate a new feature update if the version of Windows 10 is nearing end of support. We may notify you when a feature update is available and ready for your machine. All Windows 10 devices with a supported version will continue to automatically receive the monthly updates. This new "download and install" option will also be available for our most popular versions of Windows 10, versions 1803 and 1809, by late May.
> 
> Additional improvements to put users more in control of updates that are being introduced with the May 2019 Update include:
> 
> ...



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## jeremyshaw (Apr 5, 2019)

Too late, I already took the ultimate upgrade.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 5, 2019)

Forced updates still.

Screw them.

Win 7 FTW.

Can't stand the gui of 10 and how menus have been changed etc.


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## Shihab (Apr 5, 2019)

Well, I guess we -the people who kept nagging and ranting on this subject- can win a battle after all!
A step in the right direction, but not quite there yet. Here's to hoping we get there before Januray...


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## Space Lynx (Apr 5, 2019)

Honestly the whole 6 month update thing was stupid imo anyway, I mean seriously what features have they introduced that have matted to me as a gamer? Nothing, unless you count TruePlay which is probably just spyware making sure none of my steam games are pirated.


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## Fx (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Forced updates still.
> 
> Screw them.
> 
> ...



I feel you. I've been using it for about 6 months now and still can't stand it. I still hate its design and privacy invasion more than anything. My initial kneejerk reaction was correct.

I only upgraded to ensure that compatibility for gaming was optimal.


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## xkm1948 (Apr 5, 2019)

TBH I'd rather pay a one time cost for a well-built OS from Microsoft that receive good amount of security and bug patches for 5yrs. But I guess those days are over now. Everything is subscription based for max profit.


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## Vayra86 (Apr 5, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> TBH I'd rather pay a one time cost for a well-built OS from Microsoft that receive good amount of security and bug patches for 5yrs. But I guess those days are over now. Everything is subscription based for max profit.



I'm still not seeing the profit here for MS. They sell Windows 10 once.

Their profit idea lies in the Store and in cloud. If you don't use them, this is the cheapest Windows OS ever. And even the most feature rich at that too.


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## HD64G (Apr 5, 2019)

So, the security BS that was supposedly the main reason for this policies isn't as important anymore?


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## Smartcom5 (Apr 5, 2019)

To be fair, if those forced updates of the past for Windows 10 would've been incorporated the _same_ level of quality, absence of defectiveness, stability and would've featured the _same_ user-friendliness and safeness as those who were issued out for Windows 7 back then, the process of people being willing to do such upgrades to Windows 10 would've been tremendously sped up and the market-share of Windows 7 would've been in free fall since Windows 10 came out (or would've been at least way more declining) – while being even free.

Since for a good chunk of power-users, the bare prospect of running/using an operating-system which bricks itself every couple of weeks to months, the forlornness of the world's biggest OS-developer being literally _un·able_ to maintaining a given minimum on stability and the sheer hopelessness in fighting a losing battle with no end in sight of regaining the ultimate control of the OS (or its respective updates … _cough_) as the user, due to forced (stability- and/or function-) bricking updates, that was the nail in the coffin for them on Windows 10 – and only to a much lesser extent the issues on privacy.

Well, if …  
Though, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.


Smartcom


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## Octopuss (Apr 5, 2019)

English is failing me today.
I don't understand what this is about at all.
Instead of forced updates every six months it will be once every 18 instead? That's all?


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## moproblems99 (Apr 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Honestly the whole 6 month update thing was stupid imo anyway, I mean seriously what features have they introduced that have matted to me as a gamer? Nothing, unless you count TruePlay which is probably just spyware making sure none of my steam games are pirated.



Yes, because gaming is the sole focus of pcs...oh, and revenue for MS...


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## Space Lynx (Apr 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Yes, because gaming is the sole focus of pcs...oh, and revenue for MS...



Thanks for the reminder! Back to Win 7 I go!  Cheers!


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 5, 2019)

This title name is misleading...


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## moproblems99 (Apr 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Thanks for the reminder! Back to Win 7 I go!  Cheers!



While there are still things I don't like about 10, it is still way better than 7.


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## neatfeatguy (Apr 5, 2019)

Smartcom5 said:


> To be fair, if those forced updates of the past for Windows 10 would've been incorporated the _same_ level of quality, absence of defectiveness, stability and would've featured the _same_ user-friendliness and safeness as those who were issued out for Windows 7 back then, the process of people being willing to do such upgrades to Windows 10 would've been tremendously sped up and the market-share of Windows 7 would've been in free fall since Windows 10 came out (or would've been at least way more declining) – while being even free.
> 
> Since for a good chunk of power-users, the bare prospect of running/using an operating-system which bricks itself every couple of weeks to months, the forlornness of the world's biggest OS-developer being literally _un·able_ to maintaining a given minimum on stability and the sheer hopelessness in fighting a losing battle with no end in sight of regaining the ultimate control of the OS (or its respective updates … _cough_) as the user, due to forced (stability- and/or function-) bricking updates, that was the nail in the coffin for them on Windows 10 – and only to a much lesser extent the issues on privacy.
> 
> ...



I don't know....

The Falls Creator update that forced it's way to my Plex server and then broke itself, that was a very pleasant experience!  Nothing like watching my RAID1 setup take a shit because Windows broke so bad it couldn't be repaired.

After that I figured Win 10 would constantly break any RAID configuration so I opted to just simply using my second HDD to do a full backup with Acronis every couple of weeks.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> While there are still things I don't like about 10, it is still way better than 7.


Ui is clunky


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## TheOne (Apr 5, 2019)

So is it going to be the 1904 update now that they are shooting for May.


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## newtekie1 (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Can't stand the gui of 10 and how menus have been changed etc.



And then you have people like me that love the 10 gui, and can't stand going back to 7 because of all the missing stuff I use daily. 



Vayra86 said:


> I'm still not seeing the profit here for MS. They sell Windows 10 once.
> 
> Their profit idea lies in the Store and in cloud. If you don't use them, this is the cheapest Windows OS ever. And even the most feature rich at that too.



The retail edition of Windows 10 is not a major seller. Almost all the copies sold are OEM versions that can't be transferred from one computer to another. So when someone buys a new computer, they are still buying a new copy and MS gets more money.


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## Fx (Apr 5, 2019)

neatfeatguy said:


> I don't know....
> 
> The Falls Creator update that forced it's way to my Plex server and then broke itself, that was a very pleasant experience!  Nothing like watching my RAID1 setup take a shit because Windows broke so bad it couldn't be repaired.
> 
> After that I figured Win 10 would constantly break any RAID configuration so I opted to just simply using my second HDD to do a full backup with Acronis every couple of weeks.



You could also use FreeFileSync, create a script to run daily via Task Scheduler to do this automatically at whatever interval you like such as daily or weekly. It is a truly free program, doesn't look archaic and is updated often.


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## moproblems99 (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Ui is clunky



I don't really know what clunky means.  Speed?



newtekie1 said:


> The retail edition of Windows 10 is not a major seller. Almost all the copies sold are OEM versions that can't be transferred from one computer to another. So when someone buys a new computer, they are still buying a new copy and MS gets more money.



I don't know about that.  They are still allowing 7 and 8 keys to be upgraded to 10.  They would also have to enforce the OEM policy which they have never done.


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## rtwjunkie (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Forced updates still.
> 
> Screw them.
> 
> ...


Start10. Looks and feels like an improved W7.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 5, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> Start10. Looks and feels like an improved W7.



No services running in background for it.

It took me forever to locate tge control panel and get the normal icons that have been with us since 95/98 on the desktop too


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## neatfeatguy (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> No services running in background for it.
> 
> It took me forever to locate tge control panel and get the normal icons that have been with us since 95/98 on the desktop too



First time I installed Win 10 I didn't see "My Computer" on the desktop.
Whatever, click on the start button - I don't see it showing up in all the crap that's littered across the start menu.
Fine. In the search bar I type in "my computer" and nothing comes up.....seriously, now. WTF?
Screw it - I just type "c:\" to bring up the window for the c drive.

Later found out it's called "This PC" and no longer "My Computer"

Tell me. What the hell is the point in renaming something after all these years?


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## HTC (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Forced updates still.
> 
> Screw them.
> 
> ...



Linux FTW ...


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## sam_86314 (Apr 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Forced updates still.
> 
> Screw them.
> 
> ...


I use OpenShell to fix the start menu (extremely lightweight open source program, currently using 2.3MB of memory), ShutUp10 to disable telemetry, forced updates, and other crap (only have to run it every now and then as Windows likes to re-enable some of the stuff this program disables), and I add Take Ownership to the right click menu to make app removal easier.

I have a process that I perform whenever I install Windows 10 to disable all the crap and get it to a usable state. Now I have it on all of my systems and haven't had too many problems.


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## erocker (Apr 5, 2019)

So, a slight tweak to their already horrible system. Nothing has really changed.


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## Divide Overflow (Apr 5, 2019)

Title should be:  Microsoft changes timing on forced updates


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## the54thvoid (Apr 5, 2019)

neatfeatguy said:


> First time I installed Win 10 I didn't see "My Computer" on the desktop.
> Whatever, click on the start button - I don't see it showing up in all the crap that's littered across the start menu.
> Fine. In the search bar I type in "my computer" and nothing comes up.....seriously, now. WTF?
> Screw it - I just type "c:\" to bring up the window for the c drive.
> ...



Right click on windows icon - file explorer - C drive etc...

Its a change but it's not retrograde.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Apr 5, 2019)

I just got a fully working 1809...like last Tuesday at 7pm...
I no longer loose audio devices.
I can go online without my browser freezing up.
I no longer get that "A device has failed to respond" error that caused my GFX to hang.
I no longer have random lockups.
My PC is fast again.
Even the thought of an update makes me vomit in my mouth a little...
I guess this good news for home users.
Problem is is the last time I removed an update it completely fucked the install....so I had to start over anyways...not sure if in the end this will be useful at all.

I have "My Computer" pinned to the taskbar.
Win10 standard.


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## tvamos (Apr 5, 2019)

I like w10, and don't mind updates. I took some time getting used to it, but later it was and is smooth sailing. I never created account, and use it as local, no email no nothing personal, all privacy settings off. Also my updates are allways at shutdown, nothing forced.


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## Mescalamba (Apr 5, 2019)

Get Long Term Service Branch and dont give sh*t all year(s) long.

Yea sure, you dont get fancy stuff, but you get Win 10 that actually works.


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## Aquinus (Apr 5, 2019)

HTC said:


> Linux FTW ...


For the last 3 years I've been using Ubuntu. It works and doesn't randomly brick my machine, so that's a nice perk.


tvamos said:


> I like w10, and don't mind updates. I took some time getting used to it, but later it was and is smooth sailing. I never created account, and use it as local, no email no nothing personal, all privacy settings off. Also my updates are allways at shutdown, nothing forced.


Was Windows able to boot afterwards because a primary motivator for me switching to Linux was that two updates had left my machine broken after an update or failed update. So unless I become a .NET developer or something, I'm likely not going to run Windows for the foreseeable future.


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## newtekie1 (Apr 5, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I don't know about that. They are still allowing 7 and 8 keys to be upgraded to 10. They would also have to enforce the OEM policy which they have never done.


Yeah, and that helps us enthusiasts, but it doesn't really matter to most people.


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## Prince Valiant (Apr 6, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> This title name is misleading...


Very, I was excited and about to check W10 prices until I read the whole post. I don't understand what Microsoft's problem is with offering optional updates and telemetry as an opt-in.


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## TheOne (Apr 6, 2019)

Personally I'm just taken aback by how much Microsoft has changed this year.


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## XiGMAKiD (Apr 6, 2019)

A good move in the right direction, so they can do something right once in a while


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## timta2 (Apr 6, 2019)

neatfeatguy said:


> First time I installed Win 10 I didn't see "My Computer" on the desktop.
> Whatever, click on the start button - I don't see it showing up in all the crap that's littered across the start menu.
> Fine. In the search bar I type in "my computer" and nothing comes up.....seriously, now. WTF?
> Screw it - I just type "c:\" to bring up the window for the c drive.
> ...



Changing the locations and names of things has historically made up a good deal of what's new in each new version of Windows. I remember my girlfriend ranting about it in the Windows XP days and asking the same question you are, here.


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## newtekie1 (Apr 6, 2019)

timta2 said:


> Changing the locations and names of things has historically made up a good deal of what's new in each new version of Windows. I remember my girlfriend ranting about it in the Windows XP days and asking the same question you are, here.



It wasn't even called "My Computer" in Windows 7...  It's also not on the desktop by default in Windows 7 either.

Seriously, if people would embrace the "Right Click On Start " method, they'd get around a lot better in Windows 10.  Heck, now that I'm used to it, I don't even need or really even want OpenShell.


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## Bones (Apr 6, 2019)

I looked at the thread title and was like "Yeah...... Right".

BTW note it says "Reconsidering", not that anything has actually changed yet and I can promise you the means of gathering telemetry will change - They didn't invest all the effort into creating Cortana and such only to abandon it later.

That's what Alexia is for - WELL KNOWN over the years to be spyware yet now it's been touted as the "In" thing to have and use for all your home and smart devices. It's probrably in enough places now they can snoop at will wherever, even in places that doesn't have Alexia directly such as a neighbor with some smart devices but none of the Alexia controlled crap.

Smart devices CAN communicate wirelessly, I mean WHY for example would your refriderator even need web access?
Alot of the newer models are capable right along with other things of a similar nature - Think about how many devices are now bluetooth/wireless capable yet it really doesn't make sense for them to be.... Like the fridge.

Call it what you will and agree or not, personally I'm not buying it guys.


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## R-T-B (Apr 6, 2019)

HD64G said:


> So, the security BS that was supposedly the main reason for this policies isn't as important anymore?



Money will always trump security.


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## TesterAnon (Apr 6, 2019)

Yeah, but can we turn forced telemetry off now?


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Apr 6, 2019)

The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.


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## tvamos (Apr 6, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> For the last 3 years I've been using Ubuntu. It works and doesn't randomly brick my machine, so that's a nice perk.
> 
> Was Windows able to boot afterwards because a primary motivator for me switching to Linux was that two updates had left my machine broken after an update or failed update. So unless I become a .NET developer or something, I'm likely not going to run Windows for the foreseeable future.


Never had such problems. I did notice my updates come at a later date, like that update erasing personal files, it never came actually.


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## enxo218 (Apr 6, 2019)

will keep using windows 7 till its no longer available on game system requirements (of games I play) or until m$ abandons their saas tripe and takes windows up to 11 because that WILL HAPPEN...I will be waiting for it


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## Easo (Apr 6, 2019)

Before even opening the comments i knew their contents. You people can never be pleased, can you? What else you want if 1.5 years is still not enough time for you to press a button? Never force updates? No, thank you botnet.



Mescalamba said:


> Get Long Term Service Branch and dont give sh*t all year(s) long.
> 
> Yea sure, you dont get fancy stuff, but you get Win 10 that actually works.



And once more, unless you have volume licensing agreement with Microsoft, LTSB is illegal on home computer. And you need to have a company for that agreement.
And hey, W10 already just works. But feel free to convince me otherwise that all those hundreds of millions of computers do not and all their users suffer.


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## Octopuss (Apr 6, 2019)

I wish they added an option to completely disable downloading of ANY drivers instead. Despite having all the regtweaks active, my wife's fking notebook STILL downloads "updated" network drivers/control centre (which I didn't ask for in the first place) at random times, ALWAYS causing upload to be buggily capped to 1mbit/s. Just FFS!!


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## TheDeeGee (Apr 6, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.


Their time will come.

It's like that circle in BR games that slowly get's smaller for them.


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## Camm (Apr 6, 2019)

So many of you guys need to grow up.

Just set updates to delay for 1-2 days for security patches, and 5-30 days for feature patches. Wallah, no more broken updates.


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## bobsled (Apr 6, 2019)

I find it fascinating how some declare their dedication to Windows 7 or swear they're rolling back to it. Sure. See you back same time next year whingeing about how your OS is now out of the extended support period and software vendors have plans to ditch support for the OS. New CPUs aren't supported on Windows 7 either.

I have annoyances with Windows 10, and most honest people would have something they'd like improved as well, but most of your whinges are so petty it's sad. If you've had a stability issue, you blame the company or OS as the root cause... with anecdotal 'evidence' at best. The rose coloured glasses for Windows 7 reminds me of the Windows XP army who said the same thing about Windows 7 when it released.

Same stuff, 4 years later.


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## Bones (Apr 6, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.



The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding. 

And my time has already come - That's what Linux is for.


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## trparky (Apr 6, 2019)

Bones said:


> The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.


Without crash data how the heck do you think anything will get fixed? Oh yeah... that's right, *IT WON'T!*

It's a lot like a developer putting out a program and then someone telling the developer that it's not working for them. OK sure, it's not working but tell the developer why it's not working. So instead of the user telling the developer why it crashed the user turns around and tells the developer to go screw himself.

You are basically saying exactly that to Microsoft, you are telling them in no uncertain terms to go screw themselves. You are not giving them the data, the crash dumps and stack traces, to fix issues that come up. And then you whine that things don't work right. Duh! You can't fix what you don't know about! Any developer will tell you this, especially with software as complex as an OS.

Mozilla does it, Google does it, Apple does it. Pretty much all software sends back data to the developer so as to improve software quality. Because again, you can't fix what you don't know about. You can have test case after test case after test case but even the most perfectly written code is going to have some strange issue on some person's system due to God knows what. A developer needs data about the issue so as to fix it. Period. Bugs don't get magically fixed, bugs get fixed with proper data from users who have issues.


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## Bones (Apr 6, 2019)

And with all this "Crash Data" as you call it that's already been collected, all the problems with updates breaking installs, causing crashes of everything from your little PC to the corporate server system yet they still continued with forced updates...... The issues still continue, previously fixed issues break again......... It goes on and on. 

Even NOW there isn't an actual change - The thread title says "Reconsidering", not that's it's a done deal and even with that I woudn't trust it.

They ain't studying "Fixing" anything except for their ability to snoop.

You willingly bend over for such you deserve what you get.


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## moproblems99 (Apr 6, 2019)

Bones said:


> The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.
> 
> And my time has already come - That's what Linux is for.



Yes, because Windows 7 doesn't send ANY telemetry.  Linux doesn't send any telemetry.  Applications don't send any telemetry.  You act like they are sending your banking transactions, and porn habits.

Take off the tinfoil hats.



Bones said:


> And with all this "Crash Data" as you call it that's already been collected, all the problems with updates breaking installs, causing crashes of everything from your little PC to the corporate server system yet they still continued with forced updates...... The issues still continue, previously fixed issues break again......... It goes on and on.



I also don't think you understand regression testing and what an impossible job it is for the pc platform.  When you think of all the hardware and software combinations, they may as well be mapping the stars.  I agree with you their QA process sucks but they would be much better off fixing the QA process and keep the forced updates instead of taking off forced updates and still having a shitty QA process.

A bad update is a bad update and will brick your shit whether it is forced or not.


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## trparky (Apr 6, 2019)

Sometimes in an effort to fix one bug you can break things in other areas, shit happens. It's called life, get over it.

These systems are complex with so many moving pieces, things are bound to go wrong when you poke and prod in some areas. Software isn't ever going to be perfect, as a developer (small time though I may be) I understand this concept very much so.


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## moproblems99 (Apr 6, 2019)

trparky said:


> Software isn't ever going to be perfect, as a developer (small time though I may be) I understand this concept very much so.



I don't know about you but I write perfect code.


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## Ubersonic (Apr 6, 2019)

God dammit, title got me excited that I could revert to Version 1803 and keep it forever /sulk




neatfeatguy said:


> Later found out it's called "This PC" and no longer "My Computer"
> 
> Tell me. What the hell is the point in renaming something after all these years?


In fairness it has been "This PC" for 5 years now (and hasn't been "My Computer" for well over a decade).  No offense intended but your belief that so much has changed with 10 may be due to not using an O/S since W7 so not having seen the changes/features implemented to Windows in the last decade.

This tends to be a running theme with people who complain about W10, hell many of the people who claim to love W7 even have features of W7 disabled in the first place and don't even realise it (I.E small icons on the taskbar is a feature added in 7 to make the W7 taskbar look more like Vista).


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## Bones (Apr 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Yes, because Windows 7 doesn't send ANY telemetry.  Linux doesn't send any telemetry.  Applications don't send any telemetry.  You act like they are sending your banking transactions, and porn habits.
> Take off the tinfoil hats.


Please show me where I said Win 7, Linux or any other doesn't do such things too - You can't.
Win 10 however is SO intrusive in comparison it goes "There" so I don't and will never have it on anything I browse the web with.

As for exactly what is being collected, present something saying/proving what "It" is being collected.
If you can't do that then the previous has no meaning.
And I happen to like my tinfoil hat thank you very much so I'll keep wearing it.



moproblems99 said:


> I also don't think you understand regression testing and what an impossible job it is for the pc platform.  When you think of all the hardware and software combinations, they may as well be mapping the stars.  I agree with you their QA process sucks but they would be much better off fixing the QA process and keep the forced updates instead of taking off forced updates and still having a shitty QA process.
> 
> _A bad update is a bad update and will brick your shit whether it is forced or not_.


My thing is why do they need *to force* updates in the first place?
There is a purpose for it and no, it's ain't about it being for one's own good. As for bad updates, you hit the nail on the head.

I do understand sometimes things can go wrong but as frequently and as badly as it's been you should have the ability to "Turn it off" if you want and *it remain that way*, which BTW is no secret an update would force all the crap back on again regardless.

@trparky I'm _well over it_ be it due to life or whatever because I will not use Win 10.
Problem solved.


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## TheGuruStud (Apr 6, 2019)

Can I have win2k back, please? Hell, I'll settle for XP x64.


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 6, 2019)

Bones said:


> Please show me where I said Win 7, Linux or any other doesn't do such things too - You can't.
> Win 10 however is SO intrusive in comparison it goes "There" so I don't and will never have it on anything I browse the web with.
> 
> As for exactly what is being collected, present something saying/proving what "It" is being collected.
> ...



In win 7 i removed every "update" that puts telemetry in.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Apr 6, 2019)

Bones said:


> The amount of fools bending over for Microsoft's telemetry is astounding.
> 
> And my time has already come - That's what Linux is for.


God who cares. It's the world we live in. You dont think facebook is keeping track of you? Apple? Google? Please.



bobsled said:


> I find it fascinating how some declare their dedication to Windows 7 or swear they're rolling back to it. Sure. See you back same time next year whingeing about how your OS is now out of the extended support period and software vendors have plans to ditch support for the OS. New CPUs aren't supported on Windows 7 either.
> 
> I have annoyances with Windows 10, and most honest people would have something they'd like improved as well, but most of your whinges are so petty it's sad. If you've had a stability issue, you blame the company or OS as the root cause... with anecdotal 'evidence' at best. The rose coloured glasses for Windows 7 reminds me of the Windows XP army who said the same thing about Windows 7 when it released.
> 
> Same stuff, 4 years later.


Not only that, good luck with any new computer build since newer Intel chips dont natively support Windows 7 anymore.


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## blobster21 (Apr 6, 2019)

@Raevenlord : thanks for this news.

Could you edit the title to accurately reflect the forced update after 18months ?


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## TheGuruStud (Apr 6, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> God who cares. It's the world we live in. You dont think facebook is keeping track of you? Apple? Google? Please.
> 
> 
> Not only that, good luck with any new computer build since newer Intel chips dont natively support Windows 7 anymore.



That's just a support technicality.


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## Bones (Apr 6, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> God who cares. It's the world we live in. You dont think facebook is keeping track of you? Apple? Google? Please.



Aww........ please is what I say too.
I mean I understand where you're coming from but doesn't mean you don't have the right to reduce or minimize it. If you don't then it only gets worse which it will over time anyway.
And just because the others are doing it too doesn't mean I have to like it or do nothing about it on my part.



moproblems99 said:


> Not only that, good luck with any new computer build since newer Intel chips dont natively support Windows 7 anymore.



Now..... Who says I'll be running an Intel in the future or that Win 10 will be the only choice I'd have?
Just did an AMD build, Ryzen 2700x in a X470 Tachi Ultimate to be exact and installed Win 7 on it like it was nothing - Doing great and posting with it right now while getting some folding done too.

Not gonna keep going back and forth over it, Microsoft only says they are reconsidering, not that it's stopped nor is there any guarantee it ever will.
Even if they did stop, no promises it woudn't start up again as well.


----------



## Shihab (Apr 6, 2019)

trparky said:


> Without crash data how the heck do you think anything will get fixed? Oh yeah... that's right, *IT WON'T!*


The way I see it, the anger wasn't sparked by the existence of telemetery itself (though there were admittedly no shortage of FUD accompanying Win10's implementations), rather the lack of an opt-out option for them. Couple that with Microsoft's *initial *lack of anything resembling transparency, their stubborn attitude towards accepting user choice without extreme pressure, and voila! There you have your controversy.

Imo, it would be better to change the narrative from "telemetry vs no telemetry" to "automatic vs opt-in/out telemetry," the latter which colours a noticeable distinction between Microsoft's (and Google's) approach, and Mozilla's.

p.s: Unless there is some preprocessing I'm not aware of happening to those dumps before they are uploaded, memory dumps are a well known data leak vector, so I'm personally pro giving people the choice whether they want to give this data or not. Forcing trust is not the wisest of approaches.



Bones said:


> Just did an AMD build, Ryzen 2700x in a X470 Tachi Ultimate to be exact and installed Win 7 on it like it was nothing - Doing great and posting with it right now while getting some folding done too.



Technically, Zen is unsupported on Win7. So I assume you've either hacked your way through the update blockade, which makes the anti-10 arguments moot since you can hack -most of- those as well, or avoided updates completely, which isn't the smartest thing to do, imo.


----------



## Bones (Apr 6, 2019)

Shihabyooo said:


> The way I see it, the anger wasn't sparked by the existence of telemetery itself (though there were admittedly no shortage of FUD accompanying Win10's implementations), rather the lack of an opt-out option for them. Couple that with Microsoft's *initial *lack of anything resembling transparency, their stubborn attitude towards accepting user choice without extreme pressure, and voila! There you have your controversy.
> 
> Imo, it would be better to change the narrative from "telemetry vs no telemetry" to "automatic vs opt-in/out telemetry," the latter which colours a noticeable distinction between Microsoft's (and Google's) approach, and Mozilla's.
> 
> p.s: Unless there is some preprocessing I'm not aware of happening to those dumps before they are uploaded, memory dumps are a well known data leak vector, so I'm personally pro giving people the choice whether they want to give this data or not. *Forcing trust is not the wisest of approaches*.



Thank you!
Nailed it to a "T". 

There is no trust if your trust in them is forced upon you.



Shihabyooo said:


> Technically, Zen is unsupported on Win7. So I assume you've either hacked your way through the update blockade, which makes the anti-10 arguments moot since you can hack -most of- those as well, or avoided updates completely, which isn't the smartest thing to do, imo.



If you "Know" how the install process goes you can work around it - An extra step or two and that's about it.
Note I said "Install", not update.
No hacking required.


----------



## SoNic67 (Apr 6, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Win 7 FTW


Enjoy broken DX12 games. Enjoy broken security.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I don't know about you but I write perfect code.



We all do. Yet sometimes things still fail 



Bones said:


> Even if they did stop, no promises it woudn't start up again as well.



This is absolutely true, but really, consider the real world for once: we're looking at people using PCs. If MS annoys them too much, they will hop over. They have alternatives, too, that they even _already use_ such as smartphone and tablet. ARM is right there. Chromebooks exist. Linux exists.

So far the market has clearly vouched for MS and its OS at large. And it still does, despite the alternatives. For business, that is even more strongly the case. Thát is MS's core business. It is not cloud! Cloud is just a means to better serve that core business, and hopefully get some more money out of it. But it is also the very thing that keeps people away from mass adopting (and only adopting) the alternatives. Adoption rate/marketshare is everything - MS missed the boat on that one with a lot of things (mobile for example, but also digital software distribution, search, browser), and they are going to be very careful about their one major bastion: Windows. They didn't give us a free upgrade because it was the right thing to do...

Look at Windows 8 reception. It was horrible enough for MS to push 8.1 with major UI changes. This company listens to 'us'. It won't always be perfect for everyone, but its quite a long way in the right direction. I'd say much more so than for example Google. Another example: security breaches. MS has a pretty damn strong track record in that sense if you consider the scale and number of attack vectors possible. They have a mastery of things x86 very few companies have and in my opinion are pretty good caretakers of it. The company's been accused of many things, but its certainly not pushing a scary new reality on us. There are other tech companies doing that push. MS just follows along, but it does that with services that are actually useful, and not some silly social media or in-home speakers. Even Cortana hasn't had the slightest privacy issue yet. MS is very careful with that.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 6, 2019)

trparky said:


> Without crash data how the heck do you think anything will get fixed? Oh yeah... that's right, *IT WON'T*



Linux says hi.



Vayra86 said:


> We all do. Yet sometimes things still fail



It's the computers fault!  It did what I said and not what I meant!


----------



## trparky (Apr 6, 2019)

Um... last time I checked when you submit a bug report (even in Linux) they request some sort of data to try and diagnose what happened. I've read Mozilla bug reports too, they too request stack trace data to diagnose issues. Hell, even Firefox has a crash reporting subsystem that you can see reported crashes via about:crashes; those reports were submitted by Firefox to Mozilla. And yes, it's done automatically exactly like they should be. Crashes should *ALWAYS* be reported along with any and all data that could lead to a fix.

Saying that something crashed and having no data to back it up isn't at all helpful and won't lead to a bug a fix. It's like making a court case with no evidence, it's not much of a court case.

Case in point... this Firefox bug report (Firefox crashes with error Program received signal SIGPIPE, Broken pipe) There's a full stack trace with all required data to fix said bug. That's what is needed to fix bugs, without that data a developer can't hope to fix bugs.

All these people saying that telemetry is bad is saying that Mozilla shouldn't be getting the stack trace data that's included in that bug report I linked to above. Well if that's the case then how you do expect Mozilla to fix the bug? Oh yeah... you can't expect them because there's no data to see what the program was doing to determine the root cause of the crash.

Telemetry is absolutely necessary to fix bugs, period. A developer cannot know what happened to cause the program to crash without data to determine why.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Apr 6, 2019)

strangely enough ... i never had any issue with win 10 ... aside that FREAKING annoying one with the Intel microcode update (actually a Intel F@CK up rather than M$ )

surprisingly i find W10 closer to my experience with Win7 than what i had with W8.1 (never got into W8 ... 8.1 was fine tho ) aside what i mentioned above (OC break) i experienced less BSOD or other joyful things since i upgraded (sometime a crash from Nv drivers... but that's Nv faults ... which is why i roll video drivers from 6 month back until i see enough hotfix and feedback saying they are alright... which is rare with Nv ... so much for the "driver superiority") luckily W10 doesn't push video drivers, basically:  i saw more BSOD during my Win7 time than now ... strange? eh?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 6, 2019)

SoNic67 said:


> Enjoy broken DX12 games. Enjoy broken security.



10 is broken every build.

DX12 games are coming to 7 so that was moot point


----------



## moproblems99 (Apr 6, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> 10 is broken every build.



I mean it really isn't.  For some yes.  But not for all.  I do not think I have had a bad update yet.  I am having a weird issue with my start button.  Could it have been from an update?  Sure.  Do I know? Nope.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 6, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I mean it really isn't.  For some yes.  But not for all.  I do not think I have had a bad update yet.  I am having a weird issue with my start button.  Could it have been from an update?  Sure.  Do I know? Nope.



It is an update, didnt have that trouble in 7, seems all too common in 10.


----------



## Shihab (Apr 6, 2019)

trparky said:


> Um... last time I checked when you submit a bug report (even in Linux) they request some sort of data to try and diagnose what happened.





trparky said:


> I've read Mozilla bug reports too, they too request stack trace data to diagnose issues.



Keyword: "Request."



trparky said:


> Hell, even Firefox has a crash reporting subsystem that you can see reported crashes via about:crashes; those reports were submitted by Firefox to Mozilla. And yes, it's done automatically exactly like they should be. Crashes should *ALWAYS* be reported along with any and all data that could lead to a fix.



Firefox only auto-uploads dumps if the option is set in the browser's settings, a cool checkbox with the description "Allow Firefox to send backlogged crash reports on your behalf" in Settings -> Privacy and Security -> Firefox Data Collection and Use.
Mozilla explicitly emphasizes on the users' choice to decline this.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 6, 2019)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.


Some of us just like it better. The way it works, feels and looks. Personally, Windows 10 still looks like a throwback from the Windows 2.0 days or something intended for children. The look and the feel are just lacking. The privacy invasion BS is another deal breaking problem.


----------



## SoNic67 (Apr 6, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> 10 is broken every build.


Works fine on millions of PC's. Including my 2 PC's and  2 laptops.


eidairaman1 said:


> DX12 games are coming to 7 so that was moot point


Really, they are coming? All the games?
"Blizzard asked DirectX 12 to be ported to Windows 7, which presumably many of its players were still running. Microsoft agreed, and ported the D3D12 runtime to Windows 7. It's now available as a patch to the game. Microsoft said it will patch existing games with Windows 7 support, and that it's working with a few other game developers to port their DirectX 12 games to Windows 7."


----------



## trparky (Apr 6, 2019)

Shihabyooo said:


> Firefox only auto-uploads dumps if the option is set in the browser's settings, a cool checkbox with the description "Allow Firefox to send backlogged crash reports on your behalf" in Settings -> Privacy and Security -> Firefox Data Collection and Use.
> Mozilla explicitly emphasizes on the users' choice to decline this.


Well if you don't submit the data to have the bug fixed, don't whine, piss, and moan when things do go wrong. If you didn't submit any relevant data regarding the crash you have no say in the matter. Want to make software better? Submit crash data and contribute to what I consider a very important part of the software development cycle.

It's like whining about your government but you didn't vote.


----------



## AsRock (Apr 6, 2019)

So no forced updates unless a good amount of time has passed ?,  there for pissing me off even more as the update will be completely  out of no were, and to top it of it be many updates.


----------



## TheOne (Apr 6, 2019)

The biggest problem I've had with 10 is Live Tiles.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 6, 2019)

The os is a potato


----------



## Shihab (Apr 6, 2019)

trparky said:


> Well if you don't submit the data to have the bug fixed, don't whine, piss, and moan when things do go wrong. If you didn't submit any relevant data regarding the crash you have no say in the matter. Want to make software better? Submit crash data and contribute to what I consider a very important part of the software development cycle.



I don't like this generalization. Equating easily reproducable issues with rare ones occuring under very specific variables is too much of a stretch. But in the case of the latter, I'm personally ok with that deal, and I dare say many would, given the option.


----------



## trparky (Apr 7, 2019)

Not me. If I can contribute to making software better (even a little bit) by submitting crash data when and if a crash occurs, I'm going to do so.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> The os is a potato



Technically speaking, 7 is far more a potato than 10.  That being said the privacy policy is a legit concern, but then there is linux and other options.



Shihabyooo said:


> I don't like this generalization.



As a developer I don't either.  A paid product should never depend on telemetry to have things fixed (and there is no real reason they should need that over a well written issue report), and telemetry should ALWAYS be opt-out.  Of course if the product is free, the ability to whine is signifigantly weakened in general...



trparky said:


> Not me. If I can contribute to making software better (even a little bit) by submitting crash data when and if a crash occurs, I'm going to do so.



So opt-in.  You don't qualify as everyone.  That's the whole point of opting in or out.  Options.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Apr 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Technically speaking, 7 is far more a potato than 10.  That being said the privacy policy is a legit concern, but then there is linux and other options.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with all these points. 
I havent updated Win10 in 6 months. Its not that I turned off WU, I blocked it so all checks return "there is not update available at this time".  Same with telemetry.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 7, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> 10 is broken every build.
> 
> DX12 games are coming to 7 so that was moot point


To be fair, even tho my main rig on W10 Pro has always had trouble upgrading and needs fresh installs (it’s why I delay the feature updates a year), two other W10 computers in the house, one Pro and one Home have never had any trouble.

Now DX12 is a split benefit/con.  For W7 users, dont hang your hopes on it too much. It’s one game so far, and honestly, with a game by game approach, dont expect many at all.

For W10 users, unless you are a blatant 100% MS fan, you have to admit, DX12 has mostly been absent and less than impressive when present.  Its been largely a non-factor.

Bottom line, W10 is mostly pretty good and runs smoothly and fast,  Pro users have been able to delay updates as well as feature upgrades.  I have yet to see forced driver updates either.


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Apr 7, 2019)

I don’t care much for the Windows 10 UI. In an effort to make touch easier, everything is oversized and very flat feeling. Windows 10 drove me back to MacOS, which stays relatively similar in appearance and functionality over major updates. Being designed for mouse and keyboard, the UI elements are small and don’t take up unnecessary space. I know you can’t really game on a Mac without dual booting, but that isn’t really an issue for me as that’s what my PS4 pro is for. Windows 10 is sadly half-baked good intentions, but when Windows Phone died, the whole App Store and UWP concept basically have no purpose.

If you were to go back in time about 5 or so years, you would be hearing a starkly different tune from Darmok. I was an all-in MS guy. Windows Phone, Xbox, even a Surface RT device. I just don’t feel like MS is committed to anything but Office and services at this point. I wonder where they’d be without the corporate support.


----------



## Bones (Apr 7, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> This is absolutely true, but really, consider the real world for once: we're looking at people using PCs. If MS annoys them too much, they will hop over. They have alternatives, too, that they even _already use_ such as smartphone and tablet. ARM is right there. Chromebooks exist. Linux exists.


I've chosen the alternative for the reasons I gave and I'll be honest - That choice is present for everyone, if it's not used then the fault lies directly on the user. Earlier a reference to voting was made, I cast my vote by saying "No" and that's fair enough.



Vayra86 said:


> So far the market has clearly vouched for MS and its OS at large. And it still does, despite the alternatives. For business, that is even more strongly the case. Thát is MS's core business. It is not cloud! Cloud is just a means to better serve that core business, and hopefully get some more money out of it. But it is also the very thing that keeps people away from mass adopting (and only adopting) the alternatives. Adoption rate/marketshare is everything - MS missed the boat on that one with a lot of things (mobile for example, but also digital software distribution, search, browser), and they are going to be very careful about their one major bastion: Windows. They didn't give us a free upgrade because it was the right thing to do...


As far as I'm concerned MS gave it away free as a hook.

They know for example gaming is BIG business and Windows is king, the threat was for another platform to come along and begin siphoning off gamers to something newer, better than before. Even if you don't call yourself a gamer, if you play games at all chances are you have a Steam account and use it, many PC's out there aren't hard-core machines for gaming with hard-core gamers using them. The ones that do it on occasion makes up a fairly large chunk of the gaming market/PC percentage too because in reality not everyone has a machine for gaming first with all else as a secondary useage. Since I'm not a gamer nor have a Steam account things about DX12 and such makes 0 difference to me.


I do agree they missed out on alot of the things you mentioned and took steps to regain what was lost but as you said it wasn't done because it was the right thing to do.




Vayra86 said:


> Look at Windows 8 reception. It was horrible enough for MS to push 8.1 with major UI changes. This company listens to 'us'. It won't always be perfect for everyone, but its quite a long way in the right direction. I'd say much more so than for example Google. Another example: security breaches. MS has a pretty damn strong track record in that sense if you consider the scale and number of attack vectors possible. They have a mastery of things x86 very few companies have and in my opinion are pretty good caretakers of it. The company's been accused of many things, but its certainly not pushing a scary new reality on us. There are other tech companies doing that push. MS just follows along, but it does that with services that are actually useful, and not some silly social media or in-home speakers. Even Cortana hasn't had the slightest privacy issue yet. MS is very careful with that.



The difference is Win 8 was just horrid right out of the box.
It did work but the look was almost alien and the menus weren't exactly easy to figure out until you messed around with it, some obvious things it needed as it was just wasn't there. I actually had a time just trying to find the shut down button at first to power down the machine and like yourself I know my way around a machine well enough - Imagine what the average user was thinking as they tried to navigate through all the tiles trying to find it.

And all the "In-Your-Face" crap was a big turnoff too.
I mean between all the stuff it threw up once in the OS it reminded me of a blindingly bright blingy flashing neon Vegas sign with epilectic-inducing properties done in Mega-Crayola-Vision, sprinkled with ads along the same lines imbedded and other useless crap.

They did a good job scaling it back with Win 10, at least that was obvious with the release of it. TBH I tried Win 10 and it was "Ok" on the surface but that damned Cortana just woudn't go away, was described elsewhere as an AI included in the OS and to a point that's accurate.
Didn't really like the feel of it either, Linux Mint is way friendlier in my opinion but that's just me.

However the thing that sealed the deal were the forced updates with telemetry, after noting it would force these on you and then change settings on it's own to continue it was the final nail in the coffin for me.
As one may say if you don't like it, just dont use it - I don't.
No need to justify my choice to anyone because _it is my choice_ and I've made it like all the rest here have either for or against.
To each his own.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 7, 2019)

HTC said:


> Linux FTW ...


There's always that one Linux troll in a Microsoft thread.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 7, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> There's always that one Linux troll in a Microsoft thread.




I may jump to reactOS at this rate


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> There's always that one Linux troll in a Microsoft thread.



It's not really trolling anymore.  It's a viable alternative in it's own right.



eidairaman1 said:


> I may jump to reactOS at this rate



Oh god.  No.  Please just let that thing die.  They are struggling to get the NT API compliant with Windows 2000.  You better kiss gaming bye bye.


----------



## HTC (Apr 7, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> There's always that one Linux troll in a Microsoft thread.



Microsoft drove me away: pissed me off enough for me to dive head 1st into Linux with ZERO experience using Linux prior to that.

And no: i don't regret doing it.

As for the topic, Microsoft: too little and too late, for me.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 7, 2019)

TheOne said:


> The biggest problem I've had with 10 is Live Tiles.


Live Tiles can be disabled with a tweak.


HTC said:


> As for the topic, Microsoft: too little and too late, for me.


At least they're moving in the right direction. They've a long way to go still.


----------



## HTC (Apr 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Live Tiles can be disabled with a tweak.
> 
> *At least they're moving in the right direction.* They've a long way to go still.



No: they just stopped moving backwards.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 7, 2019)

HTC said:


> No: they just stopped moving backwards.


That's a fair perspective. Now if they could only get it through their heads that invading people's privacy is wrong and borderline illegal, do away with the waste of time activation nonsense, go back to OS as a stand-alone product(as this OS-as-a-service crap doesn't work very well for the general public), stop forcing people to use Windows Defender, Edge(IE allowing for the easy removal of such along with anything else the user doesn't like), take the UI back to Windows 7 and redevelop/redesign from there followed by releasing Windows 11. Yeah, those would be great things and Microsoft would show the world they actually give a damn about the future of Windows as a platform.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Live Tiles can be disabled with a tweak.



Or just don't add them to the Start menu.  It takes me like 30 seconds to remove the default ones, and then I never add them again.


----------



## Shihab (Apr 7, 2019)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> but when Windows Phone died, the whole App Store and UWP concept basically have no purpose.



MS might have ditched Windows Phone, but that doesn't mean they're leaving Apple and Google in control of the the portable, touch devices market.
UWP has potential even without the phone ecosystem. Platform support-wise, MS does have multiple existing platforms: x86 and ARM desktops and laptops, Xbone, HoloLens, in addition to the IoT market they're trying to jump in to, and heck, even beyond MS-owned platforms as well (Xamarin?)!

For the Appstore, I don't think having many targeted platforms is required to give it a purpose. Look at Android's, it practically only targets tablets and smartphones (other implementations are left to their implementers, afaik) and it's doing well. It's less of "supporting phones," more of "let's have more control!"



HTC said:


> And no: i don't regret doing it.



I have a feeling that the correlation between using linux and not regretting it stems from the fact that only masochists can consciously attempt to adopt linux as a main OS... </sarcasm>
Which reminds me, it's been a while since I shouted my lungs out at Nouveau...


----------



## Ubersonic (Apr 7, 2019)

Bones said:


> My thing is why do they need *to force* updates in the first place?


The basic reason is that these days (and since XP/Vista really) you don't need any knowledge/understanding of computers in order to operate them for basic use.  This has resulted in a world where the vast vast majority of Windows "home" users are complete idiots who avoid installing security updates and service packs because they don't want to slow their computer or waste time downloading things when they have stuff to do.  This was a major issue with XP (*cough* MSBlast, *cough* WannaCry) and as a result it was damaging Microsoft's reputation because stupid users refused to believe their problems were caused by their own stupidity, it must be Windows fault. It's kind of similar to the BSOD issues in the Win9x days, the vast majority of BSODs were the result of users buying cheap hardware with buggy drivers but try telling them that, nonono must be crappy Win98 lol.

Anyway with W10 Microsoft had enough of the PEBKAC and took the decisions out of the hands of people unsuitable for making them.




SoNic67 said:


> Enjoy broken DX12 games. Enjoy broken security.


In fairness, people complaining that W10 doesn't allow them to ignore security/functionality patches like W7 did aren't really going to be bothered by broken security 




eidairaman1 said:


> DX12 games are coming to 7 so that was moot point


No they're not.

This is just a wishful misunderstanding that hopeful W7 diehards have spread due to one specific DX11 game that uses a tiny bit of DX12 code being ported to W7 with Microsoft's help.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 7, 2019)

Shihabyooo said:


> I have a feeling that the correlation between using linux and not regretting it stems from the fact that only masochists can consciously attempt to adopt linux as a main OS...


You might say that sarcastically, but it's pretty close to the truth.
Most people feel butthurt by the lack of control they have in W10, despite it's ease of use, so they decide to make their life harder to prove a point.


----------



## trparky (Apr 7, 2019)

Ubersonic said:


> The basic reason is that these days (and since XP/Vista really) you don't need any knowledge/understanding of computers in order to operate them for basic use. This has resulted in a world where the vast vast majority of Windows "home" users are complete idiots


Basically this.


----------



## R0H1T (Apr 7, 2019)

Tbf there's way more idiots using phones than computers & yet none highlights the massive issues there!


----------



## TheOne (Apr 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Live Tiles can be disabled with a tweak.



Yeah, but it is the one bug that I've seen that seems to affects every system.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 7, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> Tbf there's way more idiots using phones than computers & yet none highlights the massive issues there!


On the bright side, there's way more chance of natural selection kicking in for phone users than someone at home at a desk.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 7, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Or just don't add them to the Start menu. It takes me like 30 seconds to remove the default ones, and then I never add them again.


That would work too.


Caring1 said:


> Most people feel butthurt by the lack of control they have in W10, despite it's ease of use, so they decide to make their life harder to prove a point.


That's not it at all. People care about important things, are willing to stand their ground and not take any of Microsoft's crap.



TheOne said:


> Yeah, but it is the one bug that I've seen that seems to affects every system.


The latest version of 10(1809) fixed the bug I think you're talking about.


----------



## TheOne (Apr 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> The latest version of 10(1809) fixed the bug I think you're talking about.



Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be, I did a fresh install at the end of January on my system and the weather app's live tile is broken.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

Shihabyooo said:


> Nouveau



There's where you went wrong.  Unless your card is very very legacy, use nvidia driver, not nouveau.



Caring1 said:


> You might say that sarcastically, but it's pretty close to the truth.



You must not have used the right linux, or used it recently.  It's really not tough anymore.



TheOne said:


> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be, I did a fresh install at the end of January on my system and the weather app's live tile is broken.



I had that bug.  At some point an update of some kind did indeed fix it.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 7, 2019)

Ubersonic said:


> The basic reason is that these days (and since XP/Vista really) you don't need any knowledge/understanding of computers in order to operate them for basic use. This has resulted in a world where the vast vast majority of Windows "home" users are complete idiots who avoid installing security updates and service packs because they don't want to slow their computer or waste time downloading things when they have stuff to do. This was a major issue with XP (*cough* MSBlast, *cough* WannaCry) and as a result it was damaging Microsoft's reputation because stupid users refused to believe their problems were caused by their own stupidity, it must be Windows fault. It's kind of similar to the BSOD issues in the Win9x days, the vast majority of BSODs were the result of users buying cheap hardware with buggy drivers but try telling them that, nonono must be crappy Win98 lol.
> 
> Anyway with W10 Microsoft had enough of the PEBKAC and took the decisions out of the hands of people unsuitable for making them.



Very much this!  The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Very much this!  The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.



The only thing I disagree with in his whole statement is the idea that Windows 9x was anything but a finely polished turd.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 7, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Very much this!  The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.



Thats any of them, 10 you name it.


Microsoft doesnt provide a manual on how to keep a system secure and updated.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 7, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Thats any of them, 10 you name it.
> 
> 
> Microsoft doesnt provide a manual on how to keep a system secure and updated.



Of course not, I'm not saying Windows 10 is infallible.  But in my experience running a computer repair shop, the most badly infected machines are always Windows 7 that have had the updates turned off.  Windows 10 machines are usually pretty darn easy to clean off.  The gunk that infects Windows 10 _tends _to be like minor surface rust compared to the completely rotted to the core stuff I've seen with Windows 7.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 7, 2019)

TheOne said:


> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be, I did a fresh install at the end of January on my system and the weather app's live tile is broken.


Not the bug I was thinking of, but...


R-T-B said:


> I had that bug. At some point an update of some kind did indeed fix it.


... I'm sure they fixed that one too.


R-T-B said:


> The only thing I disagree with in his whole statement is the idea that Windows 9x was anything but a finely polished turd.


Have to agree, Windows 95/98/98SE were revolutionary in that time. Windows Vista was misunderstood. Windows 8 was the steamy turd, 8.1 was polished turd and 10 is constantly being polished to a fine shine, yet in the end it's still a turd.


newtekie1 said:


> But in my experience running a computer repair shop, the most badly infected machines are always Windows 7 that have had the updates turned off.


That's not been my experience. The ones that have the most problems are ones without an AV/AM protecting the system. This is across all versions of Windows, not just 7.


----------



## TheOne (Apr 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I had that bug.  At some point an update of some kind did indeed fix it.



A problem with it is that it comes and goes, when I did a fresh install of 1809 the weather tile worked, didn't stop until I switched locations, I'm hoping that 1903 will address it, again?, of course there is also the problem that they may break it again with another update.  I mean this is just a minor annoyance, especially on a fresh install, but its' one that seems to plague 10 across most hardware.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Have to agree, Windows 95/98/98SE were revolutionary in that time.



I think you misunderstood me.  From a tech perspective the entire 9x line was beaten soundly by the likes of IBM OS/2.  Yes, OS/2.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 7, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I think you misunderstood me. From a tech perspective the entire 9x line was beaten soundly by the likes of IBM OS/2. Yes, OS/2.


Yup, I think I did. No worries. OS/2 Warp4 was amazing, but Windows was more popular.


----------



## lemonadesoda (Apr 7, 2019)

This is all about legal liability. If YOU CHOOSE to upgrade, you do so at your own risk, if you wait, by 18 months MS should have fixed the bugs bugs bugs.
Now, MS, please stop fking with skype. The new skype is awful and has this same philosophy of “we own your computer and we will remove YOUR ability to decide when to update and we will fk with the interface and functionality whenever we choose”.


----------



## Shihab (Apr 7, 2019)

I see people going for the "because average Joe is dump" argument. Pretty sure many people share that belief post, what, every election ever? Lucky for -some of- us they can't take matters into their own hands, but unfortunetly, MS can and do/did.
That is if we gave them the benefit of doubt and assumed that that's their only reason for this.



R-T-B said:


> There's where you went wrong.  Unless your card is very very legacy, use nvidia driver, not nouveau.


Long story. Starts with Nouveau being the default driver that effs everything up, and inability to use the built-in driver switcher because Nvidia (OFAC, actually) deemed my region too barberic to access their repos...


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yup, I think I did. No worries. OS/2 Warp4 was amazing, but Windows was more popular.



Certainly no denying how it went down...  heh.


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Apr 7, 2019)

Parts of Windows 10 I don’t mind—the idea of auto-updates is really not bad, provided the system can recover from failed updates and you’re getting updates that fix issues and improve security. What I don’t care for is MS trying to do 2 major updates in a year (and their UI design choices that I previously discussed). Windows should be maturing and needing fewer major updates, not more. When MS tries to make Windows exciting, it is often not well received. My experience with “average” users is that they almost universally hate when their computer changes. Whether it’s Windows or Instagram, many just don’t want to have to relearn or adjust to something different because the way it was worked just fine.  Apple has made a living with gradual change. People may view it as a lack of innovation, but I think that’s one thing they figured out, and when they do introduce some significant change, they tend to advertise it heavily to get customers to embrace it. MS doesn’t really have this influence.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 7, 2019)

Shihabyooo said:


> Long story. Starts with Nouveau being the default driver that effs everything up, and inability to use the built-in driver switcher because Nvidia (OFAC, actually) deemed my region too barberic to access their repos...



Ooh!  I remember this story.  It ends with me being told I was supporting ethnic cleansing for saying gpu-driver embargos are dumb...

Fun story. (/s for the dense)


----------



## syrup (Apr 8, 2019)

That's nice, but it's still relatively short-term with a service model that means other, less welcome changes are inevitable, and little you can do about it other than grumble/acquiesce or abandon Windows.

With Windows 8.1, 7, and prior versions, you handed over your money and basically had a ten year agreement. Even though bundling distorted the market a lot, when people didn't like what Microsoft was dishing out (e.g. Me, Vista, 8), the long support periods for existing versions of Windows meant customers had plenty of scope to send a strong market signal and trigger a change in Microsoft's direction by withholding their almighty dollar.

How's that supposed to work with Windows 10?


----------



## John Naylor (Apr 8, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> I'm still not seeing the profit here for MS. They sell Windows 10 once.
> 
> Their profit idea lies in the Store and in cloud. If you don't use them, this is the cheapest Windows OS ever. And even the most feature rich at that too.



The money is in the data collection ... look at Google ... they basically had no product to sell, just their user's data.



newtekie1 said:


> The retail edition of Windows 10 is not a major seller. Almost all the copies sold are OEM versions that can't be transferred from one computer to another. So when someone buys a new computer, they are still buying a new copy and MS gets more money.



In the past, MS presented mixed signals on this ....

Windows 10 EULA
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

*4.      Transfer.*_ The provisions of this section do not apply if you acquired the software in Germany or in any of the countries listed on this site (aka.ms/transfer), in which case any transfer of the software to a third party, and the right to use it, must comply with applicable law._

_*a.      Software preinstalled on device.* If you acquired the software preinstalled on a device (and also if you upgraded from software preinstalled on a device), you may transfer the license to use the software directly to another user, only with the licensed device. The transfer must include the software and, if provided with the device, an authentic Windows label including the product key. Before any permitted transfer, the other party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software._

_*b.      Stand-alone software.* If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices._

When you buy a "stand alone" copy of Win 10 on newegg it is a stand alone purchase.   Nowadays it's made clear , on most sites anyway, that when you buy a "Stand alone" OEM copy there's usually a disclaimer saying _"Use of this OEM System Builder Channel software is subject to the terms of the Microsoft OEM System Builder License. This software is intended for pre-installation on a new personal computer for resale. This OEM System Builder Channel software requires the assembler to provide end user support for the Windows software and cannot be transferred to another computer once it is installed. "   That disclaimer didn't appear, more often than not, in the early days._

That being said, I have to say .... I have done MoBo and CPU replacements after a MoBo failed and never had an activation issue.    If you upgrade from a 2 year old budget MoBo and CPU  to a Hi end enthusiast board, the activation will likely fail.  But if you go from a MSI Z170 Gaming Pro Carbon to a MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon (assuming they both exist, just pulled name outta you can guess where) as long it can be viewed as a likely  warranty replacement, I wouldn't expect activation to fail.   I have done it 3 times expectiung each time to have to call and provide proof via a RMA receipt.  But all 3 times on line activation happened w/o a hitch ... 2 of the 3 were different generation MoBo / CPU replacements ... the 3rd just MoBo ...all 3 were RMAs.   After 6 months, the new pair replace the old pair in the database.




CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> The amount of you still crying and favoring Windows 7 still astounds me.



After 5 years, Windows 10 finally replaced Windows 7 in November 2018 as the dominant windows version ..... that many people must have a reason.  Anyone who manages a network on 5 - 10 PCs spends less time per box on Win 7 than Win 10.... Imagine the chaos when Asus only shops got the pdate that broke systems w/ a selection of Asus Boards

To make 10 acceptable ..... WU needs to be set up to provide options as follows:

A.  Security Update Options:

a)  Install Upon release
b)  Install after 7 days
c)  Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days.  (xx limited to 30 - 90 days)

B.  Feature Update Options:

a)  Install Upon release
b)  Install after 7 days
c)  Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)

C.  Hardware Driver Update Options:

a)  Install Upon release
b)  Install after 7 days
c)  Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)

D.  Data Collecti Update Options:

a)  Install Upon release
b)  Install after 7 days
c)  Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)




newtekie1 said:


> It wasn't even called "My Computer" in Windows 7...  It's also not on the desktop by default in Windows 7 either.



It is on all the boxes on our network ... or was ... I renamed them to Machine Alpha, Machine Beta, etc.


There's two types of Windows users just like there's two camps of those watching politics.   Those that believe what MS says and those who use common sense.  MS believed offering Win 10 for free would result in everyone switching over in the 1st few weeks ... there has never been a case where installing a new OS on old hardware was a good idea.  Even if you get the same performance, the loss in time, effort, downtime and refamiliarization never produces a positive ROI.    American businesses found that out w/ Win 95 when, according to InfoWorld, businesses invested an average of  $2500 - $4500 per seat in hardware, IT time, retraining, etc only to see performance drop by 40%.

MS says it's for our benefit .... geez.... .  When my son broughthis car in to get a flat repaired, they said his 3 month old car needed 4 tires, a wheel alignment, wiper blades and brake pads.    I built my SOHO network in 1993 using WFWGs for 5 boxes .... had 10 by 1996.  So I'd say 230+ machine years and have only seen 1 infection.   Rec'd a infected 3.5" floppy, was picked up upon insertion and disinfected before file was copied to HD.  I don't see as we need MS "saving us from anything".   I have had frantic calls from colleagues and users we support when XP SP3 destroyed AutoCADs licensing ... can't imagine the frustration of having 20 CAD operators sitting at their desks unable to use their software investment of $3500 - $15,000 per seats for 2 days for people who normally billed out at $85 an hour ($25,000+).   The day Win10 broke, it broke every SLI system it was installed on.

The was one reason and one reason only why Windows 10 was free ... MS say that Google had grown into one of America's most affluent companies without selling any products.   They signed on with bunches of partners to provide data mining which marketing types and copyright holders froth at the mouth when thinking of getting their hands on it.  One of the reasons MS started it's unscrupulous behaviors of sneaking / tricking people into upgrading was to get their partners off their back who had paid for access to amounts of data that wasn't being delivered because of the abysmally low uptake of the new OS. 

Win 10 is by no means a terrible OS .... the best think for them to do would be to:

Windows 10 Consumer Edition - Free or a minimal cost and you agree to let MS control what happens on your PC ... when PC gets broken, you lose access ... well it will suck to be you that day.
Windows 10 Professional Edition - Charge $200 or more for people who earn a living with their PCs and then leave us the hell alone.  provide a "chinese menu "with access to all features and allow us to check or uncheck a box for things we went and things we don't.

As for the "everybody does it" illusion ... not here ... When i experience a crash in AutoCAD for example .... I get a pop up asking me if I want to send a report.   Firefox allows one to control what is and what is not sent.  This happens in games too.  The OS should allow the option globally.  The difference being the user gets to choose what data is sent and if it will be sent.  This is akin to having a security system.

Option A - When leaving the house and turning system ON, if an entry alarm is active and not cancelled within xx seconds, the system will auto activate all security cameras.

Option B - Whenever the system operator suspects something may be amiss, the operator can activate all security cameras. 

Option C - All data from security cameras will be kept on alarm company servers.

if choosing B or C, you can ask company to call you at work if ya daughter is having sex with her BF in your den after school. 

 I once read a licensing agreement where the EULA said that all work created with their software became the legal property of the software developer.    We have no idea what data their telemetry is collected and we are entitled to have a readable copy of all data transmitted   Why not have this data be logged on the PC and produce a popup asking the user for permission to send the log file   ?  User would have option of reading before being sent or to save to a log file folder which would be emptied of all files more than 30 days old ?  Because many of the partners they provide data to don't want the user made aware.  

Media services are doing the same thing.   We recently received a notice from our cable / internet provider that we had illegally downloaded an HBO movie.    I called them and told them that this was ridiculous as we pay them for HBO and could watch the content at any time and had already seen that particular title 2 years back.     The customer service rep laughed and said "duh", don't know why they would send you that notice w/o checking your subscription.

One of MS's partners is MarkMonitor / MCAA ... why are they paying MS for access to this data ?   Think about that ... all those free upgrades for Win 10 that are even still being offered .... what has replaced that revenue stream ?  what could possibly have comparable value ?


----------



## Ubersonic (Apr 8, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> It is on all the boxes on our network ... or was ...


It wasn't, it was changed to My Computer in Windows 95, then changed to Computer in Windows Vista, then changed to This PC in Windows 8.1


----------



## amit_talkin (Apr 8, 2019)

So many hatred towards Win10. But imo, there are far more people who like the Win10 OS as it is now ( like me ) and never bother to post any reply here because We just dont care. There are surely some flows as all OS has. Its still far better than Mac or Linux for end users ( not going with server platform, undeniably Linux is king there ).
And yes, Linux sucks...25 years in making and cant even beat a paid OS for end users.


----------



## hat (Apr 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a fair perspective. Now if they could only get it through their heads that invading people's privacy is wrong and borderline illegal, do away with the waste of time activation nonsense, go back to OS as a stand-alone product(as this OS-as-a-service crap doesn't work very well for the general public), stop forcing people to use Windows Defender, Edge(IE allowing for the easy removal of such along with anything else the user doesn't like), take the UI back to Windows 7 and redevelop/redesign from there followed by releasing Windows 11. Yeah, those would be great things and Microsoft would show the world they actually give a damn about the future of Windows as a platform.



Outside of telemetry issues, no one is forcing you to use any of those things. I have Windows Defender disabled, and I use SRWare Iron. Sure, those things still exist somewhere on the system, but they're not in use. Much like many other functions of the OS that I never use or may not even be aware they exist. Forced telemetry can totally go die in a fire, though... but you and I both know that's never going to happen. Unless you begin life anew totally off the grid somewhere, you're going to be tracked.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 8, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> The money is in the data collection ... look at Google ... they basically had no product to sell, just their user's data.



Can you elaborate? I'm not seeing this. MS has no AdSense, it has no mobile OS, it has nothing even remotely like Google in terms of big data on consumers.

The money for MS right now is in cloud:

https://news.microsoft.com/2018/07/19/microsoft-cloud-drives-record-fourth-quarter-results-2/

These two companies are completely not comparable. MS is doing what it has always done best: focus on software with a real purpose; now also 'as a service'.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 8, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> To make 10 acceptable ..... WU needs to be set up to provide options as follows:



A. Security Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 - 90 days)
d) Advise but do not install without admin approval
e) Do not advise and do not install(installation is completely manual if desired)

B. Feature Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)
d) Advise but do not install without admin approval
e) Do not advise and do not install(installation is completely manual if desired)

C. Hardware Driver Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)
d) Advise but do not install without admin approval
e) Do not advise and do not install(installation is completely manual if desired)

D. Data Collection Update Options:

a) Install Upon release
b) Install after 7 days
c) Advise but wait for Admin manual install or, if not done, install after xx days. (xx limited to 30 days - never)
d) Advise but do not install without admin approval
e) Do not advise and do not install(installation is completely manual if desired)

These are options that are actually acceptable.


amit_talkin said:


> And yes, Linux sucks...25 years in making and cant even beat a paid OS for end users.


You need to actually tryout Linux for a month or perhaps lay off the drugs. The only area where Windows has the advantage over Linux is gaming. Everything else can be done, and sometimes better, on Linux.



hat said:


> Sure, those things still exist somewhere on the system, but they're not in use.


That's my point. They're present on the system. Unacceptable. Complete removal needs to be an option WITHOUT all the rigmarole to do it by force..


----------



## Legacy-ZA (Apr 8, 2019)

Octopuss said:


> English is failing me today.
> I don't understand what this is about at all.
> Instead of forced updates every six months it will be once every 18 instead? That's all?



Your English is just fine; you are just smart enough to see through the ploy.


----------



## amit_talkin (Apr 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You need to actually tryout Linux for a month or perhaps lay off the drugs. The only area where Windows has the advantage over Linux is gaming. Everything else can be done, and sometimes better, on Linux.


Tell this to billions of people using paid ( or pirated what so ever ) Windows over Linux. If Linux is better than Windows and its even free, it should have dominated end user market already.
Fact is it just lacks usability which most users want. I haven't used Linux in a while but I remember the pain it given me to complete even simplest task or install system device drivers.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 8, 2019)

amit_talkin said:


> I haven't used Linux in a while


Yup. Must have been a long time ago.


----------



## trparky (Apr 8, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Very much this!  The number of Win7 computers I see come in my shop, polluted to hell, and with a hundred updates waiting to be installed is insane.


Yep, pretty much this. People complain about having the control taken away from them but people around here seem to forget that you're not the target audience anymore, the target audience is the computer know-nothing idiot users that would still click on "I am a virus, don't click on me". These kinds of people need all the hand holding that they can get and a fuckton more. So yes, forced updates may annoy us more knowledgeable users but again, the average know-nothing idiot user need these forced updates.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 8, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's not been my experience. The ones that have the most problems are ones without an AV/AM protecting the system. This is across all versions of Windows, not just 7.



Yeah, I can see that.  I guess it is always a toss up.  But the machines with all the updates missing are always polluted too.


----------



## Octopuss (Apr 8, 2019)

If you are a Windows user, good luck even TRYING Linux out. *NOTHING* makes *ANY* sense there, nothing at all. You either are a tech hippie who started with Linux first or there's no chance in hell you'd be able to use this OS even on extremely basic level.

edit:
This is NOT meant as shitting on Linux, just my take on it as a lifelong Windows user who tried and failed horribly.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 8, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> Yeah, I can see that.  I guess it is always a toss up.  But the machines with all the updates missing are always polluted too.


Another thing to consider is configuration. Any version of Windows improperly configured will be vulnerable. With a ton of people visiting "IShouldntBeHere.com" on a regular basis, an install is bound to fouled up.


----------



## Ubersonic (Apr 9, 2019)

Octopuss said:


> If you are a Windows user, good luck even TRYING Linux out. *NOTHING* makes *ANY* sense there, nothing at all. You either are a tech hippie who started with Linux first or there's no chance in hell you'd be able to use this OS even on extremely basic level.


Debatable, If you're a Windows user and were so pre-XP then you prob have the smarts to figure it out.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 10, 2019)

Ubersonic said:


> Debatable, If you're a Windows user and were so pre-XP then you prob have the smarts to figure it out.


And there it is, Linux users thinking they are smarter appears, just like I always thought, smug buggers.


----------



## Ubersonic (Apr 10, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> And there it is, Linux users thinking they are smarter appears, just like I always thought, smug buggers.


Think you quoted the wrong person. I don't use Linux.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 10, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're off topic and being a troll. Let's rope it in..


Excuse me, stating what I think, on the subject is not trolling, where's your smart arsed comment about trolling to the guy that mentioned Linux in the first place in a Microsoft thread?
Pretty sure you need to pull your head in and check yourself.


----------



## 95Viper (Apr 11, 2019)

Keep it on topic, please.
Take your off topic debating to PMs.

Thank You.


----------



## hat (Apr 11, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's my point. They're present on the system. Unacceptable. Complete removal needs to be an option WITHOUT all the rigmarole to do it by force..



That's a tall order. So, I don't want Edge, or Cortana, Defender, the Security Center... how about telephony? Disk degragmenter? Disk cleanup? Paint, the command prompt, the calendar... to be fair to everyone who may or may not want something present installed, there would have to be some checklist somewhere and it would be enormous.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 11, 2019)

hat said:


> So, I don't want Edge, or Cortana,


Windows 10 LTSC. Neither of them are present.


hat said:


> there would have to be some checklist somewhere and it would be enormous.


True, yet how difficult would it be?


----------



## hat (Apr 11, 2019)

I can imagine inexperienced users breaking things...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 11, 2019)

hat said:


> I can imagine inexperienced users breaking things...


Yeah, that'd happen, but it'd be a learning experience for them.


----------



## jrscott0262 (Aug 29, 2019)

Forced update last night...broken Visual Studio 2019 today.  ANOTHER WASTED DAY FIXING INCOMPETENT MICROSOFT ISSUES.  After 30 years of using their crappy software and development tools (not by choice mind you), they owe me 2 years of my life back, at least!  I'm extremely close to filing a lawsuit...


----------



## TheGuruStud (Aug 29, 2019)

jrscott0262 said:


> Forced update last night...broken Visual Studio 2019 today.  ANOTHER WASTED DAY FIXING INCOMPETENT MICROSOFT ISSUES.  After 30 years of using their crappy software and development tools (not by choice mind you), they owe me 2 years of my life back, at least!  I'm extremely close to filing a lawsuit...



Once I disabled updates all major windows problems stopped occuring. I've been doing it since at least win7. About every 6 mo I turn it on, so the updates have been patched 6 times and are hopefully stable. This has worked perfectly for win10 (keep in mind you need to know release times of version updates). Win 8 would get literally bricked about once or twice per year even with this method, but I keep daily system images (so it would stay unupdated for another few months lol).

My first win10 install lasted from July '15 till zen 2...not bad. There's no way in hell that would've happened with updates.

I also disable on all PCs I build. No one calls me back with issues or bricks.


----------



## AsRock (Aug 29, 2019)

jrscott0262 said:


> Forced update last night...broken Visual Studio 2019 today.  ANOTHER WASTED DAY FIXING INCOMPETENT MICROSOFT ISSUES.  After 30 years of using their crappy software and development tools (not by choice mind you), they owe me 2 years of my life back, at least!  I'm extremely close to filing a lawsuit...



Well when i put the latest on of my systems i  put a delay the updates for 7 days, how ever closer looking at it i could delay them for a month. Prolly end up disabling them on the other system soon but as for this one they always enabled even though using what ever tools people have come up with it still happens.  This happens only on the Home version, no pro version give me any hassle on disabling them.

After doing that a day or 2 later it still updated.

They don't want to do it your way and just update when you get around to it.


----------



## Camm (Aug 29, 2019)

I love all this talk of "I'm gonna go become a linux user!", where the reality is for desktop use on linux (which I usually am with OpenSUSE), this shit is just par for the course.

Delay security updates by 1 day, and feature updates by a month on Windows 10 and you will have almost 0 problems. If I can keep an Enterprise running on these rules (admittedly with some canary automated testing as well), you can deal with the occasional bug this way as well.


----------



## TheGuruStud (Aug 29, 2019)

Camm said:


> I love all this talk of "I'm gonna go become a linux user!", where the reality is for desktop use on linux (which I usually am with OpenSUSE), this shit is just par for the course.
> 
> Delay security updates by 1 day, and feature updates by a month on Windows 10 and you will have almost 0 problems. If I can keep an Enterprise running on these rules (admittedly with some canary automated testing as well), you can deal with the occasional bug this way as well.


 Enterprise pushes updates themselves after they test them. Otherwise, the whole place would go down when you catch the microtard flu.


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Aug 29, 2019)

jrscott0262 said:


> Forced update last night...broken Visual Studio 2019 today.  ANOTHER WASTED DAY FIXING INCOMPETENT MICROSOFT ISSUES.  After 30 years of using their crappy software and development tools (not by choice mind you), they owe me 2 years of my life back, at least!  I'm extremely close to filing a lawsuit...



I don’t like the Office 365 updates. Talk about adding stuff for the sake of it. No, I don’t want auto-save enabled on everything, so a prompt would be nice instead of one day it’s randomly enabled. 



Camm said:


> I love all this talk of "I'm gonna go become a linux user!", where the reality is for desktop use on linux (which I usually am with OpenSUSE), this shit is just par for the course.
> 
> Delay security updates by 1 day, and feature updates by a month on Windows 10 and you will have almost 0 problems. If I can keep an Enterprise running on these rules (admittedly with some canary automated testing as well), you can deal with the occasional bug this way as well.


Yeah, I recently nuked X by trying to uninstall AMD-GPU-Pro drivers. As nice a Linux has become, it still takes some commitment and willingness to troubleshoot and command line.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Aug 31, 2019)

TheGuruStud said:


> Once I disabled updates all major windows problems stopped occuring. I've been doing it since at least win7. About every 6 mo I turn it on, so the updates have been patched 6 times and are hopefully stable. This has worked perfectly for win10 (keep in mind you need to know release times of version updates). Win 8 would get literally bricked about once or twice per year even with this method, but I keep daily system images (so it would stay unupdated for another few months lol).
> 
> My first win10 install lasted from July '15 till zen 2...not bad. There's no way in hell that would've happened with updates.
> 
> I also disable on all PCs I build. No one calls me back with issues or bricks.


i do the same. how many times in the past 2 years did m$ majorly screw up an update? i count atleast 3 separate incidents.


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## TheGuruStud (Aug 31, 2019)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> i do the same. how many times in the past 2 years did m$ majorly screw up an update? i count atleast 3 separate incidents.


Every single major update and a few "fixes" for those.


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