# Radeon HD 4860 in the Works?



## btarunr (Jul 28, 2009)

AMD released the industry's first 40 nm desktop GPU. The RV740 went on to make only one SKU, the Radeon HD 4770. The company filled its Radeon HD 4700 series almost overnight with two more SKUs positioned on either sides of the HD 4770, based on the 55 nm RV770/RV790 GPUs instead, due to stock shortages. These also impacted on the inventories of the HD 4770, which forced AMD to reposition the Radeon HD 4850 in the sub-$110 segment, creating a bit of a void between it and the roughly $150 HD 4870. If anyone of you is up for yet another ATI Radeon SKU, here's one coming your way: Radeon HD 4860. 

The Radeon HD 4860 seems to have been already taped out, sampled, and pictured by sections of the Chinese media. At the heart of it is the RV790 GPU in a different configuration codenamed RV790GT. It has 640 stream processors instead of 800 on the HD 4850, except that it uses a 256-bit GDDR5 memory interface, and effectively higher clock speeds. The core is clocked at 700 MHz, and the memory at 750 MHz (3000 MHz effective). The PCB pictured shows the card to powered by a single 6-pin power connector. It is expected to be positioned in at the $130 price point, and in theory, competitive with NVIDIA's GeForce GTS 250. 





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## ShogoXT (Jul 28, 2009)

I guess the model number puts it in line with its actual performance.


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## Paintface (Jul 28, 2009)

And where does that put the 4790 that was supposed to come out?


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## newtekie1 (Jul 28, 2009)

Who knows, ATi's flooding the market with useless variations on the same cards...Even I'm starting to get confused...


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 28, 2009)

niiiice, one 6-pin is good


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 28, 2009)

Can't say I'm interested, they need to sort out what they have and get on with the 5K series, if that's the name of the upcoming RV8xx blah blah blah.


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## Duncan1 (Jul 28, 2009)

SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> niiiice, one 6-pin is good



Yeah it's really good, but at the same time it's weird having a rv790-based vga with one pci-e connector.


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## HossHuge (Jul 28, 2009)

It seems as if they are just trying to increase their market share by flooding the market.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 28, 2009)

Duncan1 said:


> Yeah it's really good, but at the same time it's weird having a rv790-based vga with one pci-e connector.



Once they start cutting it down, it is nothing more than an RV770 really...


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 28, 2009)

HossHuge said:


> It seems as if they are just trying to increase their market share by flooding the market.



It has nothing to do with flooding trying to gain market share (even though they are always trying for marketshare obviously), they are offering new cards at different performance points. rv770 is not being made anymore, so they introduce a card @ ~4850+ performance level based on rv790, the point being that they need to keep their lineup current to their manufactured product. This drives sales on 4850 by lowering the price yet again and eventually 4850's will be gone or close to gone which is the ultimate goal, sell all the GPU's you have made.


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## devguy (Jul 28, 2009)

That is one short card.  And only one pcie power connector?  Good news.

I guess crossfiring this with a 4870 would be like crossfiring a 4830 with a 4850 (same family/mem type, but different core speed/stream processors).  Should be interesting to see what AMD's partners do with these.


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## Easo (Jul 28, 2009)

So, how much more powerful (if) this will be over 4850? Bandwidth rocks of course, but -160 stream procesors?
Btw, looks kinda "clean" (positioning of vrm's and other parts).


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## inferKNOX (Jul 28, 2009)

Wow, ATI is really making a flood of cards! It will be nice if they gain on market share because that means more $ for R&D, which means great competition with nVidia = lower prices + higher performance & innovation! ATI needs to get some huge market share before PhysX takes hold or it will spell trouble for them.
What I'm looking to see is cards with same/more processing power, but lower power consumption, smaller PCBs and less heat, like a Radeon HD4850e, HD4860e, HD4870e & HD4890e, that would have 25% less wattage & PCB.


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## AKlass (Jul 28, 2009)

Easo said:


> So, how much more powerful (if) this will be over 4850? Bandwidth rocks of course, but -160 stream procesors?
> Btw, looks kinda "clean" (positioning of vrm's and other parts).


Less SPs but higher bandwidth> 4850


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## jamesrt2004 (Jul 28, 2009)

I think we should expect this will be used in quite a few OEM's


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## EastCoasthandle (Jul 28, 2009)

Actually AMD has gain market share in Q2.


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## AltecV1 (Jul 28, 2009)

well ati flooding the gpu market is a good thing and a bad thing(good beacause it will lower prizes and bad be cause it will be too confusing with all the new cards coming out) Atleast ati is not rebranding YET


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 28, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> Who knows, ATi's flooding the market with useless variations on the same cards...Even I'm starting to get confused...


 newtekie1 and I agree. Scary.


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## Nosada (Jul 28, 2009)

I never thought I'd be nostalgic for the days where every gen had 3 cards: low cost, mainstream and high-end.


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## mdm-adph (Jul 28, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> newtekie1 and I agree. Scary.



Eh, it's no different than any other company.

All this means to me is that ATI has the time to waste -- if they're replicating the (shady) practices of nVidia's marketers, maybe it means their market share is equalizing.  

That being said, I thought the 4850 already "competed" against the GTS 250/9800GTX?


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## newtekie1 (Jul 28, 2009)

SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> It has nothing to do with flooding trying to gain market share (even though they are always trying for marketshare obviously), they are offering new cards at different performance points. rv770 is not being made anymore, so they introduce a card @ ~4850+ performance level based on rv790, the point being that they need to keep their lineup current to their manufactured product. This drives sales on 4850 by lowering the price yet again and eventually 4850's will be gone or close to gone which is the ultimate goal, sell all the GPU's you have made.



RV770 is still being made, ATi just announced the HD4730 based on RV770 a couple weeks ago.  They are just reconfiguring RV770 and RV790 cores to flood the market with cards.  HD4870 and HD4850 are also still being produced using the RV770.



AltecV1 said:


> well ati flooding the gpu market is a good thing and a bad thing(good beacause it will lower prizes and bad be cause it will be too confusing with all the new cards coming out) Atleast ati is not rebranding YET



I think it is only a bad thing, I don't think it will lower prices at all, they are just filling the price gaps.  The problem is that they are filling the gaps with cards that are way to similar to cards that already exist.



mdm-adph said:


> Eh, it's no different than any other company.
> 
> All this means to me is that ATI has the time to waste -- if they're replicating the (shady) practices of nVidia's marketers, maybe it means their market share is equalizing.
> 
> That being said, I thought the 4850 already "competed" against the GTS 250/9800GTX?



Actually, I think it means that ATi doesn't have anything better to come out with.


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## AltecV1 (Jul 28, 2009)

wow you are negative about everything


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## aj28 (Jul 28, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> Once they start cutting it down, it is nothing more than an RV770 really...



...With the electrical benefits of the RV790. Also, as the 4830 showed us, the performance-per-watt of these chips increases tremendously when using only 640 stream processors, making it a desirable configuration for energy-efficient gaming rigs. Remember, these are the people jumping on the X3 710/720 



Nosada said:


> I never thought I'd be nostalgic for the days where every gen had 3 cards: low cost, mainstream and high-end.



I don't think that age ever existed in modern times. Even going back to the 9800/X800 days you had SE/PRO/XT/XT PE/GT/GTO/GTS/GTX and any number of variants, only the number preceding it didn't change but two or three times.

Where AMD messed up is trying to rank the cards by performance. Yeah, it kinda works, but with people interested in energy-efficiency, heat output, and size more than ever, plus the jumbled up pricing, it's not as easy a market to shop as they intended for it to be. What you really want is to have is to have your lineup tiered by the core they use, but with harvesting in full swing as the AMD camp scrambles to sell off old chips (a smart move, don't get me wrong), even that's a hard way to structure things. You could set them up by the number of stream processors (like it used to be with pixel pipelines in the old days), but like I noted towards the top of the post, a lot of the time a 640P screamer will be faster and more efficient than an 800P beast running a lower clock.

So yeah, I agree that this is a bit ridiculous, but looking back I can't honestly say that the end of any other generation was ever any less confusing. AMD is selling off old stock, and that's good. With the number of HD2/HD3 series cards still on the market, I can only imagine they've learned a lesson or two on this stuff from the past.


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## erocker (Jul 28, 2009)

HossHuge said:


> It seems as if they are just trying to increase their market share by flooding the market.



Yes they are.



EastCoasthandle said:


> Actually AMD has gain market share in Q2.



...and it's working!


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## suraswami (Jul 28, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> Who knows, ATi's flooding the market with useless variations on the same cards...Even I'm starting to get confused...



atleast u r only starting to get confused, my head is spinning and my left and right eyes have interchanged places 

4860 will have less performance than 4850 or more?


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## erocker (Jul 28, 2009)

suraswami said:


> atleast u r only starting to get confused, my head is spinning and my left and right eyes have interchanged places
> 
> 4860 will have less performance than 4850 or more?



4890
*4860 ??<---*
4870
*4860 ??<---*
4850
*4860 ??<---* 
4770
4830

I put this list together to make sense of things and came out making no sense at all!


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## From_Nowhere (Jul 28, 2009)

HD 4870>HD 4860>HD 4850>HD 4770. The 4860 has 32 less Stream Processors (EDIT: forgot the correct term for what they disable) than the 4850, but a lot more bandwith b/c of the GDDR5. Similar to the 9600GS0 48sp vs 96sp.

EDIT:

Similar to the 9600GSO 96SP vs. 9600GT 64SP. One has more memory bandwith, the other more shading power.


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## AltecV1 (Jul 28, 2009)

yea the 4860 sits between 4850 and 4870 numbers dont lie


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jul 28, 2009)

it should be a deacent card..


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 28, 2009)

hmm more 48XX variants and no 58XX in site. such a pity. by the time they release the 58XX series I'll have no money to buy it with.


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## Apocolypse007 (Jul 28, 2009)

I'm still happy with my 4890.  It should last me for a good while, but really, any card in the 4700 or 4800 series should play any game on the market well. Now is a great time to buy because I'm sure the DX11 cards wont be cheap at all when released.


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## happita (Jul 28, 2009)

With what cards everyone has now, most gtx200 series and most hd4k series owners will not make the switch including at least half from the previous generation. So dx11's sales I predict will be slow along with Windows 7, unless it has something really great to offer that only dx11 cards are capable of(future updates of Win7). But this will all change with a few games being made dx11 compatible coming out at the beginning of 2010 I hope


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## AltecV1 (Jul 28, 2009)

why do you think that win 7 sales are gonna go slow


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## niko084 (Jul 28, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> Who knows, ATi's flooding the market with useless variations on the same cards...Even I'm starting to get confused...



Welcome to the Nvidia world.... 

G92/G92/G92/G92/G92/G92....... It gets old...

Again, exactly why I still have my 4850.


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## happita (Jul 29, 2009)

Because it is always the case with new operating systems. People are reluctant to switch to the "unknown". And the majority do NOT try out the release candidate versions of Win 7. Hell, the only time people actually test something out is when it comes out in beta. And even after people try it, there are always bugs and things that could have been improved further so they wait for a service pack before even purchasing the said operating system. This is not to say that this is how the majority of the consumer market does things, but with all things taken into consideration, some people don't even care to even try new O/S's and are just content until their computer has reached its end-of-life until they build another system with a new operating system (and even thats a maybe, they may just be comfortable and continue to use the same O/S that they are familiar with).


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## KainXS (Jul 29, 2009)

From_Nowhere said:


> HD 4870>HD 4860>HD 4850>HD 4770. The 4860 has 32 less Stream Processors than the 4850, but a lot more bandwith b/c of the GDDR5. Similar to the 9600GS0 48sp vs 96sp.



the 9600gso 48sp is actually a very bad card, I had it, its barely faster than a 8600GTS

now spec wise this card is going to be slower than the 4770, 16 rops and 640 sp just like this card but has a lower clocked core and memory,  . . . . .

I don't understand why ati would do this, making a card thats slower than the 4770 but naming it higher, . . . sounds kinda like nvidia infected them to me.


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## tastegw (Jul 29, 2009)

KainXS said:


> the 9600gso 48sp is actually a very bad card, I had it, its barely faster than a 8600GTS
> 
> now spec wise this card is going to be slower than the 4770, 16 rops and 640 sp just like this card but has a lower clocked core and memory,  . . . . .
> 
> I don't understand why ati would do this, making a card thats slower than the 4770 but naming it higher, . . . sounds kinda like nvidia infected them to me.



it will be faster than the 4770 due to bus size,  128 vs 256.  but not by much


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## MadClown (Jul 29, 2009)

I want my HD 5870 plox =D


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## KainXS (Jul 29, 2009)

ahhhh 256bit, but even with that, still I am worried about that low core clock, and this late in the game when the 5XXX cards are just around the corner, I can only wonder why, and from the looks, with that 256bit it will only be barely barely faster than a stock HD4850 and they say these will cost 150 bucks while the HD4850's run for like 100 bucks now, and the prices are going to drop when this is released.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 29, 2009)

niko084 said:


> Welcome to the Nvidia world....
> 
> G92/G92/G92/G92/G92/G92....... It gets old...
> 
> Again, exactly why I still have my 4850.



At least nVidia gets rid of the old when they release the new, ATi just keeps releasing new...


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## Kantastic (Jul 29, 2009)

It's like Nvidia releasing their GTS 240. ^_^


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## swaaye (Jul 29, 2009)

aj28 said:


> I don't think that age ever existed in modern times. Even going back to the 9800/X800 days you had SE/PRO/XT/XT PE/GT/GTO/GTS/GTX and any number of variants, only the number preceding it didn't change but two or three times.


So, pre 9800 isn't modern times? That was this decade lol!

GeForce 4 had about 4 variants in the end. Ti4200, 4400, 4600, 4800. Some extras that were almost unknown too though.

Radeon 8500 had, well, Radeon 8500 and 8500 LE.

GeForce 3 had itself and the Ti200, Ti500.

Etc.

They just want to make more and more money, probably for a few reasons. 1) All companies relentlessly want to make more money. 2) GPUs are insanely more complex than they were 9 years ago or so (that's why there is so little competition now). 3) Because the graphics card market's style of competition has evolved.


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## swaaye (Jul 29, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> At least nVidia gets rid of the old when they release the new, ATi just keeps releasing new...


Oh man you need to look at the mess NVIDIA has made of the mobile sector. all they do is rebrand G92 and friends. There are no chips from the GT200 family at all but they just keep on coming up with new ways to name the old stuff. "GeForce G"!! lol


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## newtekie1 (Jul 29, 2009)

swaaye said:


> Oh man you need to look at the mess NVIDIA has made of the mobile sector. all they do is rebrand G92 and friends. There are no chips from the GT200 family at all but they just keep on coming up with new ways to name the old stuff. "GeForce G"!! lol



Their mobile sector has been fucked for years....

Saddly, GT200 is way to power hungry to put into a mobile design, and ATi's massive underclocks on the RV770 based mobile chips means G92 is still able to compete.  Both comanies need to focus on actual mobile GPUs instead of just putting desktop chips in mobile packages...


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## aj28 (Jul 29, 2009)

swaaye said:


> So, pre 9800 isn't modern times? That was this decade lol!



R300, R420, R520, R600, R700, and in a few months, R800. No, I do not think the R200 is anywhere near modern, at least in the context of GPU technology.

With that said, I think a lot of this multi-SKU business (Hah! Thinking like "MULTIBALL!!" in a pinball machine...) has more to do with a combination of management and manufacturing than it does with marketing. For one, we've got new management up top, and a dire financial situation, both of which have undoubtably been pushing this type of thing to increase the efficiency of their manufacturing. Speaking of which, manufacturing has changed! I would imagine the AMD of 2009 is much more capable of determining and disabling the exact defective components of a GPU die than the AMD (ATI) of 2001 when they were churning out the venerable R200 (a.k.a. Radeon 8500).

Given that, you can look at it one of two ways. One, AMD is scraping by with the slimmest margin possible by pricing expensive chips at relatively low prices. Two, AMD is reaping huge margins because the trash bin is the only other place these defects would otherwise be welcome. Which of the two is closer to reality depends largely on the agreement that AMD has with TSMC, but something tells me they're paying for the chips one way or another, so by salvaging, modifying, and selling them, they're able to keep the price of their "fully functional" products (4850/70/90) lower than would otherwise be possible.

But that's just the way I see it.


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## btarunr (Jul 29, 2009)

Huh? What makes you think this is a rebrand? Which other ATI GPU has the config 640 SP, 700/750 MHz, 256-bit GDDR5?


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## inferKNOX (Jul 29, 2009)

AltecV1 said:


> wow you are negative about everything


+1


suraswami said:


> atleast u r only starting to get confused, my head is spinning and my left and right eyes have interchanged places
> 
> 4860 will have less performance than 4850 or more?


Logic dictates that since 4860 is between 4870 & 4850 in number, so it should be between in performance


yogurt_21 said:


> hmm more 48XX variants and no 58XX in site. such a pity. by the time they release the 58XX series I'll have no money to buy it with.


5xxx's are set for Sept/Oct so they are well in sight. It's nVidia that's beyond the horizon.


Apocolypse007 said:


> I'm still happy with my 4890.  It should last me for a good while, but really, any card in the 4700 or 4800 series should play any game on the market well. Now is a great time to buy because I'm sure the DX11 cards wont be cheap at all when released.


+1, unless I get a buyer for my 4890 at 5870/5890 price.


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## mdm-adph (Jul 29, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> At least nVidia gets rid of the old when they release the new, ATi just keeps releasing new...



You've got to be kidding me.  Both companies do this.  

How long has the G200 been out?  And how long has nVidia _still_ been rebranding the G92?



btarunr said:


> Huh? What makes you think this is a rebrand? Which other ATI GPU has the config 640 SP, 700/750 MHz, 256-bit GDDR5?



Well, not that you put it that way...    True, as long as the performance puts it between a 4850 and a 4870, this card technically isn't a rebrand.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 29, 2009)

inferKNOX said:


> Logic dictates that since 4860 is between 4870 & 4850 in number, so it should be between in performance



Logic doesn't always apply.  Look at the HD4770 outperforming the HD4830, and almost the HD4850.  And the HD4790 does perform better than the HD4850...  ATi might be facing the same issue nVidia had with the 9600GT and 8800GS/9600GSO, where the card with the lower memory bandwidth but more SPs(8800GS) ended up performing extremely close to the card with lower SPs by more bandwidth(9600GT), so close in fact that nVidia decided to reconfigure the 8800GS/9600GSO to stop it from hurting 9600GT sales.



mdm-adph said:


> You've got to be kidding me.  Both companies do this.
> 
> How long has the G200 been out?  And how long has nVidia _still_ been rebranding the G92?



You are missing the point, when nVidia rebrands the G92, it has always been to bring it into line with the current naming scheme.  It is not to just release another SKU because they can.  

ATi is simply releasing as many overlapping SKUs as possible to flood the market with cards.  There is no reason that we need a card between HD4850 and HD4870, the gap is too small.

There has never been a flood of G92 SKUs, at most there were only 5 active at any given time.  We have how many RV790/RV770 SKUs right now? 7 this one making 8?  And that is even giving ATi the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are actually going to discontinue the HD4830...which is only a rumor AFAIK, and hasn't been officially announced.  Otherwise it would be 9.

I mean just look at the two lineups compared:



ATi | nVidia
HD4870x2 | GTX295
HD4850x2 | GTX285
HD4890 | GTX275
HD4870 | GTX260 55nm
HD4860 | GTS250
HD4850 | GTS240
HD4830 | 9600GT
HD4790 | 9600GSO
HD4770 | 9500GT
HD4730 | 9400GT
HD4670 |
HD4650 |
HD4550 |
HD4350 |


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 29, 2009)

you forgot the GTX280, the GTX 260 216 65nm, the GTX 260 192, the 8800gt, the 9800gtx+, the 9800gt .... need I go on?


that said there is definitely a place for this card - its shorter, hopefully lower power, and faster with more overclocking potential.  Given that the 4770 is essentially non-existent atm it makes sense.

BTW all of these 4830/4860 type cards are meant to sell the lower bin of the rv770 and the rv790 - the ones that dont make the cut of being an 4870/4890


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## mdm-adph (Jul 29, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> You are missing the point, when nVidia rebrands the G92, it has always been to bring it into line with the current naming scheme.  It is not to just release another SKU because they can.
> 
> ATi is simply releasing as many overlapping SKUs as possible to flood the market with cards.  There is no reason that we need a card between HD4850 and HD4870, the gap is too small.
> 
> There has never been a flood of G92 SKUs, at most there were only 5 active at any given time.  We have how many RV790/RV770 SKUs right now? 7 this one making 8?  And that is even giving ATi the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are actually going to discontinue the HD4830...which is only a rumor AFAIK, and hasn't been officially announced.  Otherwise it would be 9.



I _really_ don't see how nVidia's practices are any better -- I don't care what their _reason_ for rebranding is.  They rebrand, ATI rebrands, they're all the same.

You can justify it all you want to because you're obviously a fan of nVidia, but it doesn't make it true.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 29, 2009)

SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> you forgot the GTX280, the GTX 260 216 65nm, the GTX 260 192, the 8800gt, the 9800gtx+, the 9800gt .... need I go on?
> 
> 
> that said there is definitely a place for this card - its shorter, hopefully lower power, and faster with more overclocking potential.  Given that the 4770 is essentially non-existent atm it makes sense.
> ...



Discontinued, discontinued, discontineud, discontinued, discontineud, and discondinuted...need I go on?



mdm-adph said:


> I _really_ don't see how nVidia's practices are any better -- I don't care what their _reason_ for rebranding is.  They rebrand, ATI rebrands, they're all the same.
> 
> You can justify it all you want to because you're obviously a fan of nVidia, but it doesn't make it true.



NVidia's practices are better because it is done to eliminate confusion, the bring currently produced configuration in line with the naming/numbering scheme.  So customers don't have to wonder if a 9800GTX is better or worse than a GTX260, they can just look at tell instantly.

ATi's practice is done to confuse the customer, to get so many ATi options out and available that the customer just gives up and picks one...  If you have more shelf presence, customers are more likely to buy your products over the competition.


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 29, 2009)

wait the 9800gtx+ is discontinued? silly me I forgot the gts 250 is THE SAME CARD

and the 8800gt and 9800gt is discontinued? silly me again I forgot the GTS 240 is the SAME CARD.

who is trying to deceive the consumer again?

so answer me this what is more confusing:
 the same card with a different sticker to give the illusion of better performance or slightly different cards with slightly different numbers ranked high# to low# for high perf to low perf?


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## jessicafae (Jul 29, 2009)

Ok this is a bit of speculation, but this board looks quite a bit like the DX11/Evergreen board that was shown at Computex.  It is very possible there will be Dx11/Evergeen chips that are pin compatible with RV790 and ATI is getting this board design out using the RV790 chip since the  DX11 variants are probably coming in 7weeks.
From the BSN article, ATI will have a full DX11 line up starting with a $50 card and going up in price from there.  Not all ATI DX11 cards are going to be expensive.  I am guessing there will be a DX11/Evergeeen  4890/275 performance class card in the $150-160 range with 1x 6pin power adapter using this board design.


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## newtekie1 (Jul 29, 2009)

SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> wait the 9800gtx+ is discontinued? silly me I forgot the gts 250 is THE SAME CARD
> 
> and the 8800gt and 9800gt is discontinued? silly me again I forgot the GTS 240 is the SAME CARD.
> 
> ...



No one tried to give the illusion of better performance by changing the name.  The GTS250 and GTS240 fit the performance of the cards perfectly.  It brings the currently produced cards into line with the naming scheme to make it less confusing for the customer.  The customers that rely on the name alone to pick the cards benefit from this, and the ones that actually do research won't be affected as they are doing research and know that the GTS250 isn't going to perform any better than the 9800GTX.

And as much as you want to believe it, ATi's number scheme doesn't rank the cards in terms of performance.  If it did, the HD4*7*90 and HD4*7*70 wouldn't outperform the HD4*8*50 and HD4*8*30.

I mean, really, your argument about the rebranding trying to trick people doesn't really hold up.  So they took the high end card from the previous generation, and made it the mid-range of the current.  How many people upgrading from the high end of the previous generation to the mid-range of the current really get an upgrade?  Did people upgrading from HD3850s to HD4670s really get better performance? No, they got worse performance.  Did people upgrading from HD2900XTs to HD3690s really get better performance?  No, they got worse performance.  Did people upgrading from a X1900XTX to a HD2600XT really get better performance? No, they got worse performance.  So really, people upgrading from a 9800GTX+ to an GTS250 should consider themselve lucky that they are getting the same performance, they should be expecting worse performance.  Upgrading from high-end to mid-range isn't usually an upgrade, and is more often than not a downgrade.


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 29, 2009)

what is this 4790 you speak of? 

and the 4770 comes close to the 4850 but doesnt actually outperform it until overclocked

EDIT: I have literally heard the words "I run a 9800gtx but I just ordered a gts250 to upgrade" more than ONCE from gamers I know. General consumers are completely conned by the change in name of the same card.


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## DrGreenThumb (Jul 29, 2009)

I just got a GTS 250 very happy with it, there was two shiny red boxes beside it also....the 4850 and 4770 all priced around the same,all i had to read was HYPER MEMORY on the box and i was turned off LOL


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## newtekie1 (Jul 29, 2009)

SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> what is this 4790 you speak of?
> 
> and the 4770 comes close to the 4850 but doesnt actually outperform it until overclocked
> 
> EDIT: I have literally heard the words "I run a 9800gtx but I just ordered a gts250 to upgrade" more than ONCE from gamers I know. General consumers are completely conned by the change in name of the same card.



http://www.techpowerup.com/96859/AMD_Readying_Radeon_HD_4790_Based_on_RV790.html

Yep, if it's not on newegg, it must not exist...

The HD4790 outperforms the HD4850, the HD4770 outperforms the HD4830, I should have put the word respectively in my post...sorry.

And I didn't say consumers weren't idiots, I've heard people say "I run a HD3870 but I just ordered a HD4670 to upgrade".  Again, these consumers should consider themselve lucky that they are getting the same performance when doing an upgrade like that.

And really, if nVidia had used the GT200 as a base for a new core for mid-range cards, what would it look like?  240 Shaders cut in half is 120.  512-bit bus cut in half is 256. 80 TUs cut in half is 40.  32 ROPs cut in half is 16.



 | GT200 Based | G92
Shaders | 120 | 128
Memory Bus | 256-bit | 256-bit
TUs | 40 | 64
ROPs | 16 | 16
Seems to me using G92 produced better cards than if they had cut down a GT200, I'm certainly happy about that, and I'm sure it saved nVidia a pretty penny to not have to tape out a new GPU that is almost identical to, actually slightly worse than, one already in existance.  I bet all those people upgrading from a 9800GTX+ to a GTS250 would have been really happy if they use a GT200 derivitive instead of G92 though. Yep, it would have been really benefitial to the consumer...:shadedshu


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## mdm-adph (Jul 29, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> NVidia's practices are better because it is done to eliminate confusion, the bring currently produced configuration in line with the naming/numbering scheme.  So customers don't have to wonder if a 9800GTX is better or worse than a GTX260, they can just look at tell instantly.



Sure -- I'm sure the average Newegg buyer (who usually doesn't even know that his new PII 920 is running at only 1.4GHz because of Cool'n'Quiet, and not because "Neweg solds me teh wrongz part") really understands that the GTX*260* is better than the *9800*GTX.

Give me a farkin' break.  

nVidia is not different -- they seek to confuse, as well.  The least you could do is admit it and not let your bias get in the way.


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 29, 2009)

I have one thing to add: Who the heck cares whether Nvidia saves money or not ?! who cares whether anyone saves money except for themselves? 

unless you are an investor in a company you shouldn't be caring one iota about how much money anyone saves except for yourself.


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## tastegw (Jul 29, 2009)

ati and nvidia do not seek to confuse the customer, just for the record.

the naming schemes may not be the best for either company, but they are doing what they can with what they have.  if you dont like it,  dont buy from either company....oh wait, what does that leave you with?


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## mdm-adph (Jul 29, 2009)

tastegw said:


> ati and nvidia do not seek to confuse the customer, just for the record.
> 
> the naming schemes may not be the best for either company, but they are doing what they can with what they have.  if you dont like it,  dont buy from either company....oh wait, what does that leave you with?



The, uh, Matrox Mystique G170?


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## PCpraiser100 (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh, not again.....


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## swaaye (Jul 29, 2009)

aj28 said:


> R300, R420, R520, R600, R700, and in a few months, R800. No, I do not think the R200 is anywhere near modern, at least in the context of GPU technology.


I think you'd be surprised what 'ol Radeon 8500 can still do. It will run some modern games ok. It's a programmable architecture just like the current stuff and it can do most of the effects a modern GPU can do. The past 8 years have been rather glacial in 3D progress compared to the really early times of Voodoo1 and friends.

And remember that you can combine some of what you listed above. They aren't that different. In fact one could go as far as saying R300 = R580 (DX9 non-unified) and R600 = RV770 (DX10 unified shader). All the interim refreshes weren't very different in the end regardless of how exciting they were at the time and how many magic marketing bullets were tweaked. Hell, practically we're still getting DX9 games and DX9 is from '02!


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## jessicafae (Jul 29, 2009)

huh... Apparently the 4860 chip was released back in March2009 since it is a mobile chip.  If this PCI-e card does surface, maybe it is just a way to move remaining stock of some of the 4860 mobility chips that did not get into laptops.  It really is not a new SKU, just a PCI-e card version of the chip.  According to the press release and the product spec page the 4860 is a 40nm chip, 826 million transistors, and 640 shaders.


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## Meizuman (Jul 30, 2009)

jessicafae said:


> huh... Apparently the 4860 chip was released back in March2009 since it is a mobile chip.  If this PCI-e card does surface, maybe it is just a way to move remaining stock of some of the 4860 mobility chips that did not get into laptops.  It really is not a new SKU, just a PCI-e card version of the chip.  According to the press release and the product spec page the 4860 is a 40nm chip, 826 million transistors, and 640 shaders.



Couldn't get those links to work

HD 4860

If the chip really is 40nm (as stated for the mobility version) , it should overclock like mad.... don't you think?


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## newtekie1 (Jul 30, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Sure -- I'm sure the average Newegg buyer (who usually doesn't even know that his new PII 920 is running at only 1.4GHz because of Cool'n'Quiet, and not because "Neweg solds me teh wrongz part") really understands that the GTX*260* is better than the *9800*GTX.
> 
> Give me a farkin' break.
> 
> nVidia is not different -- they seek to confuse, as well.  The least you could do is admit it and not let your bias get in the way.



You seem to have a comprehension problem, try reading my post again.  You seem to have made my point for me.

The average idiot consumer will likely NOT know the GTX260 is better than the 9800GTX simply by looking at the name. 9800>260, so the 9800 must be better to the common idiot.  Just like 4670 is bigger than 3870, so the 4670 must be better.  That is the whole point of the renaming.  The idiotic consumer can look and tell that a GTS250 is worse than GTX260 simply by number, 250<260.  I don't see how you could consider that adding confusion.  Yes, they used the same core, big fucking deal, the renamed it so the name fits the performance level.  And as I've already explained, the people that you claim they try to confuse are probably better off in the end.

NVidia seeks to eliminate confusion, but you will never see that because you are just an ATi fan...



SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> I have one thing to add: Who the heck cares whether Nvidia saves money or not ?! who cares whether anyone saves money except for themselves?
> 
> unless you are an investor in a company you shouldn't be caring one iota about how much money anyone saves except for yourself.



As a consumer nVidia saving money is a good thing for me, for several reasons:

1.) If they had to spend extra money to tape out a new GPU, then the new GPU would likely have a higher price to the consumer.  They have to recover that extra cost somehow.  As a consumer I don't like higher prices.

2.) If they have to sell the GTS250/240 for a higher price, then ATi would be selling the HD4850/HD4830 for higher prices also, becuase if nVidia isn't able to compete price wise, ATi wouldn't have to lower their price as much.  This door swings both ways of course, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say ATi is bad because they would charge more money if they could, every company is like this.  Heck, even I would charge my customers more if I knew they wouldn't just run off to my competition...



tastegw said:


> ati and nvidia do not seek to confuse the customer, just for the record.



Just for the record, I don't think ATi seeks to confuse the customer, I think they are trying to flood the market with every variation on the RV770/790 possible.

I only talk about their naming scheme because it was brought up and I was responding to it.  Their naming scheme simply doesn't directly relate to performance, I don't think they are trying to confuse customers with this, they are just bad at naming cards(nvidia is definitely quilty of this also, but I've already posted a number of times how I think their naming scheme should have gone).


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## inferKNOX (Jul 30, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> No one tried to give the illusion of better performance by changing the name.  The GTS250 and GTS240 fit the performance of the cards perfectly.  It brings the currently produced cards into line with the naming scheme to make it less confusing for the customer.  The customers that rely on the name alone to pick the cards benefit from this, and the ones that actually do research won't be affected as they are doing research and know that the GTS250 isn't going to perform any better than the 9800GTX.
> 
> And as much as you want to believe it, ATi's number scheme doesn't rank the cards in terms of performance.  If it did, the HD4*7*90 and HD4*7*70 wouldn't outperform the HD4*8*50 and HD4*8*30.
> 
> I mean, really, your argument about the rebranding trying to trick people doesn't really hold up.  So they took the high end card from the previous generation, and made it the mid-range of the current.  How many people upgrading from the high end of the previous generation to the mid-range of the current really get an upgrade?  Did people upgrading from HD3850s to HD4670s really get better performance? No, they got worse performance.  Did people upgrading from HD2900XTs to HD3690s really get better performance?  No, they got worse performance.  Did people upgrading from a X1900XTX to a HD2600XT really get better performance? No, they got worse performance.  So really, people upgrading from a 9800GTX+ to an GTS250 should consider themselve lucky that they are getting the same performance, they should be expecting worse performance.  Upgrading from high-end to mid-range isn't usually an upgrade, and is more often than not a downgrade.


Oh come on, consider themselves _lucky_? When ATi releases one card over another, it's because revisions (power/architecture/etc) have been done, whether more powerful or not.
nVidia is renaming the *same* card! Which average consumer on earth do you think will not understand it as a new card?
I think you're starting to defend nV beyond reason, and you know what everyone calls that....
Although ATi's naming scheme is very awkward and confusing too, they are not passing off previous generation cards a new-gen. If people are confused, they ask a more knowledgeable person to do their thinking. nVidia is just trying to give the illusion of releasing new cards in the face of ATi's blanketing release. LOL, there are 3 ways to win the market, flood, cheapen and lead; right now ATi's winning on 2 fronts while even nVidia's lead is made null by the incredulous 285 & 295 prices. BTW, I'm getting performance similar to 285 off my 4890, so yes, 285 is overpriced IMO.



tastegw said:


> ati and nvidia do not seek to confuse the customer, just for the record.
> 
> the naming schemes may not be the best for either company, but they are doing what they can with what they have.  if you dont like it,  dont buy from either company....oh wait, what does that leave you with?


VIA/S3G!! PMSL


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## Duncan1 (Jul 30, 2009)

Some more pics, and benchies (the source remains the same):

This HD4860 comes from UNIKA (chinese company).

























The card can only be correctly identified by AMD Gpu Clock Tool:




And a small comparison test with a Radeon HD4850 under 3DMark Vantage:

HD4850:






HD4860:





http://publish.it168.com/2009/0730/20090730028001.shtml


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## newtekie1 (Jul 30, 2009)

inferKNOX said:


> Oh come on, consider themselves _lucky_? When ATi releases one card over another, it's because revisions (power/architecture/etc) have been done, whether more powerful or not.
> nVidia is renaming the *same* card! Which average consumer on earth do you think will not understand it as a new card?
> I think you're starting to defend nV beyond reason, and you know what everyone calls that....
> Although ATi's naming scheme is very awkward and confusing too, they are not passing off previous generation cards a new-gen. If people are confused, they ask a more knowledgeable person to do their thinking. nVidia is just trying to give the illusion of releasing new cards in the face of ATi's blanketing release. LOL, there are 3 ways to win the market, flood, cheapen and lead; right now ATi's winning on 2 fronts while even nVidia's lead is made null by the incredulous 285 & 295 prices. BTW, I'm getting performance similar to 285 off my 4890, so yes, 285 is overpriced IMO.



Yes, I've already explained why they should consider themselve lucky, I'm not going over it again.  You are more than welcome to read my posts again, and make a valid argument against it.  Lateral upgrades from high end to mid-range usually yeild worse performance, in this case it would yeild the same performance, they *should* consider themselves lucky.  It doesn't matter one bit that it is the same configuration or different.

And what new features did GT200 bring to make it next gen?  None.  It is just a beefed up G92.  So again, what benefit to the consumer would releasing a GT200 derivitive have had?  So the consumers that you say are being tricked, the ones that don't even know the new card they are about to get is the same G92 core with the same specs, would get the satisfaction of knowing that they really did get a new core on their card?  Granted, the new core would be almost identical to G92...and they wouldn't know it anyway, because if they are too idiotic to check specs and what core is on the card in the first place, they won't know if the new card has a new core or not...  But they certainly would have that satisfaction...


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 30, 2009)

LOL dude, you think that when nvidia saves money on ANYTHING they pass it onto the consumer? you need to get a clue about how business works. Let me give you the short of it :

Nvidia makes video cards, Ati makes video cards, the video cards are priced per their PERFORMANCE. Top end piece is roughly $600 the card with the most performance between ati/NV garners that price tag - all other cards are priced respectively lower within a brand based on their performance relative their superior sibling card. Cards are also priced relative to their performance equal from the other company.

Nvidia sees that it is making $150 on each card and says "oh man, we are really making our consumers pay us too much, we need to drop the price $20 so we can get less money and they can save a few bucks" *NO IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY*

when nvidia saves money nvidia makes money, when nvidia loses sales to ati they lower prices, they could give a flying f*** about saving their consumers money, and that goes for ALL companies.


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## jessicafae (Jul 31, 2009)

Duncan1 said:


> Some more pics, and benchies (the source remains the same):
> This HD4860 comes from UNIKA (chinese company).



i found another article about the UNIKA 4860 on expreview
http://en.expreview.com/2009/07/30/unika-radeon-hd-4860-taken-apart.html#more-4497

according to this article the UNIKA 4860 is only targeted at the Chinese market and it is an RV790 chip not the 40nm mobility HD4860 chip. 

I guess this is all about clearing out stock chips (RV790) as much as possible before the DX11/evergreen boards appear (which will be very soon).  And different markets (Japan, China,....) are all very different.  For example we can get 4770 here in akihabara but they are 13500 yen boards ($135).  And 1GB 4870s are still in the 20000yen ($200) range.


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## jagd (Jul 31, 2009)

Any info about ROP numbers ? 8 (like 4730 ) or 16?


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## newtekie1 (Jul 31, 2009)

SNiiPE_DoGG said:


> LOL dude, you think that when nvidia saves money on ANYTHING they pass it onto the consumer? you need to get a clue about how business works. Let me give you the short of it :
> 
> Nvidia makes video cards, Ati makes video cards, the video cards are priced per their PERFORMANCE. Top end piece is roughly $600 the card with the most performance between ati/NV garners that price tag - all other cards are priced respectively lower within a brand based on their performance relative their superior sibling card. Cards are also priced relative to their performance equal from the other company.
> 
> ...



Let me tell you how it really works, because you haven't a clue:

ATi and nVidia are competing on several performance points.  Currently the GTS250/9800GTX+ and HD4850 are competiting cards.  Each company wants the consumer to buy their cards.  So, when the 9800GTX+ was on the market, nvidia had it priced at about $300.  Then the HD4850 came along to compete with it, and ATi priced it at $200. So nVidia countered by lower the price of the 9800GTX+ to $175, so ATi countered by lowring the price of the HD4850 to $150, so nVidia lowered the price of the 9800GTX+ to $125, so ATi lowered the price of the HD4850 to $100...and nVidia was stuck because they couldn't lower the price on the 9800GTX+ any more because the cost to make the card was too high.

Now, nVidia redesigns the card to make manufacturing cheaper, guess what they get to do?  You guessed it, lower the price to best the HD4850, which will then force ATi to then lower their price on the HD4850, assuming they aren't as low as they can go.

I never said anything about nVidia lower the price for the consumer because they wanted to...you just made that up simply because you have no clue how compeition and product pricing work, and you wanted to try and make my argument look bad.  In the end you just made yourself look uninformed.


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## wolf (Jul 31, 2009)

I've gotta say I've been following this discussion newtekie1 and I tend to agree with you.

Their current moves do indeed seek to eliminate confusion, not to mention any nice store clerk could tell you that a 9800GTX+ and a GTS250 are the same card.

The problem is this same clerk is stumped when it comes to ATi's cards, with 4770 and 4790 besting 48xx series cards, it gets a whole lot more confusing.

don't get me wrong, this whole renaming dance doesn't please me in the slightest, but as for this particular discussion, newtekie1 ftw. In your very replies SNiiPE_DoGG, you have inadvertently proved his point.


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## Duncan1 (Jul 31, 2009)

jessicafae said:


> i found another article about the UNIKA 4860 on expreview
> http://en.expreview.com/2009/07/30/unika-radeon-hd-4860-taken-apart.html#more-4497
> 
> according to this article the UNIKA 4860 is only targeted at the Chinese market and it is an RV790 chip not the 40nm mobility HD4860 chip.



Their source is the same as btanunr's, and all they did is that they searched for pics without the it168 logo and put their own.


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## btarunr (Jul 31, 2009)

Duncan1 said:


> Their source is the same as btanunr's, and all they did is that they searched for pics without the it168 logo and put their own.



Yup, yup.


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## inferKNOX (Jul 31, 2009)

Ah, ha ha ha! Ok look newtekie1 & SNiiPE_DoGG, this is going to quickly degenerate into a flame war, so let's just drop it and 'agree to disagree' (whatever that means, lol).
Let it just be said that, all this numbering and various performance that is often in non-linear proportion to those numbers is confusing, maybe not confusing you, or me, but confusing none-the-less, k? 

BTW, newtekie, the 4850 was put to $100 to fill in the 4770 gap, not as a counter as such. Also, don't take SNiiPE_DoGG lightly, he's no n00b, I am far more a noob than he IMO (don't believe me? check around on the net).


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## newtekie1 (Jul 31, 2009)

inferKNOX said:


> Ah, ha ha ha! Ok look newtekie1 & SNiiPE_DoGG, this is going to quickly degenerate into a flame war, so let's just drop it and 'agree to disagree' (whatever that means, lol).
> Let it just be said that, all this numbering and various performance that is often in non-linear proportion to those numbers is confusing, maybe not confusing you, or me, but confusing none-the-less, k?
> 
> BTW, newtekie, the 4850 was put to $100 to fill in the 4770 gap, not as a counter as such. Also, don't take SNiiPE_DoGG lightly, he's no n00b, I am far more a noob than he IMO (don't believe me? check around on the net).



Sounds good to me.  I agree that the numbers are often confusing, that is why I believe anyone that buys a graphics card(or any hardware) based on name alone without doing research deserves to get screwed.  But thats besides the point.

Again, I don't believe ATi purposely tried to be confusing with their numbering, I'm just saying that it is, while nVidia's rebrandings are actually purposely trying to make things less confusing.  NVidia's naming scheme was all fucked up, and as I've said before they started stumbling with the launch of G92 and putting it in the 8800 series.

And while at first the HD4850 wasn't marked down to $100, the HD4770 was actually put out to counter the GTS250's lower price.  And when supplies of the HD4770 dried up due to manufacturing dificulties, ATi had to do something else to counter the GTS250, so they lowered the price on the HD4850.  It is all just a big competition to get the best price to performance ratio for the consumer.  And lowering manufacturing costs is just one of the weapons.

And I highly doubt SNiiPE_DoGG is nearly as knowledgable as I am, but I could very well be wrong.  I know he seems to not have a good grasp on how the business world works, regardless of how much knowledge he has in computers...


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 31, 2009)

lol sorry for this newtekie, but when I made my previous post I made the assumption that you were completely ignorant about business (a good default stance to have because most are) so I oversimplified and then you decided to take that as a chance to call *me* and idiot...

....trolls have the most tact & class in this world....


trust me you may be full of your post count here at TPU but the post counter is not a knowledge meter so shove your ego off to the side next time


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## newtekie1 (Jul 31, 2009)

And where did I call you an idiot exactly?

Questioning your knowledge, and assuming you have none in business isn't calling you an idiot, don't get so defensive.  You obviously don't have a grasp on how business and competition works, which is why I explained it to you.  Anyone with even a shallow grasp on business wouldn't completely ignore competition in a situation like this.  However, ignoring it did fit your argument in trying to make me look like I don't know what I am talking about...anyway...I'm sure that is just be being paranoid and getting defensive...

Being ignorant on a subject doesn't make you an idiot, and isn't a negative thing.  My mechanic knows nothing about computers, other than how to use it to type up and invoice, but I would be hard press to call him an idiot.  He's actually very intellegent, just like I don't know nearly as much about cars as he does, and I doubt he would call me an idiot either.

Don't get so defensive when someone questions your knowledge on a subject, when I said you have no clue, it wasn't meant as an insult, and I apologize if it came of as one.

And quite frankly, if you had even a basic grasp on business and competition, you would not have responded to my post where I laid out that competition was the basis for lowered prices by completely ignoring competition.  So you either didn't have a grasp on what I was talking about, or you simply replied completely ignoring what I said with the purpose of either continuing the argument(trolling) or trying to make my argument and me look bad(attempting to insult me in an indirect way).  So really, I wonder which one it was?

And who said anything about post count relating to knowledge? Having a higher post count, and being more knowledgeable is coincidental.


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## SNiiPE_DoGG (Jul 31, 2009)

Saying that I dont know about what I am talking about is insulting my intelligence, go back and actually read my post about business in the first place - your reply to that post is not a counterpoint to what I said but more of an elaboration. As I said, I am sorry for assuming your ignorance, but in no way did that post garner the response "wow you are the one who knows nothing about business"


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## newtekie1 (Aug 1, 2009)

When you respond to a post about competition and completely ignore competition...well I already went over that...

And remember, you started with the "you need to get a clue about business" shit, so don't even try saying I was the one who started insulting you.  I was responding entirely to your statement when I said _you_ are the one with no clue.

So either you do know what you are talking about, and posted purely to try and insult me and troll, or you don't have a clue how business and competition works.  Which is it?


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## wolf (Aug 1, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> if they're replicating the (shady) practices of nVidia's marketers, maybe it means their market share is equalizing.



Sometimes I wonder what people see in their head when they think of these 2 brands....

Since Nvidia renames it looks like ATi fans are in a twist about it, but when ATi do they very same thing, they're only "replicating" Nvidias "shady" practices to stay in the game.

they both do it, neither are evil, get over it.

in essence... Why so serious?


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## newtekie1 (Aug 1, 2009)

wolf said:


> Sometimes I wonder what people see in their head when they think of these 2 brands....
> 
> Since Nvidia renames it looks like ATi fans are in a twist about it, but when ATi do they very same thing, they're only "replicating" Nvidias "shady" practices to stay in the game.
> 
> ...



I agree entirely, there is nothing wrong with what either is doing, it is nothing that all business don't do or wouldn't do if they could.


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## wolf (Aug 1, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> I agree entirely, there is nothing wrong with what either is doing, it is nothing that all business don't do or wouldn't do if they could.



I think things would be terribly worse for us if either of the 2 stopped existing, which is why I love both brands so much


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## newtekie1 (Aug 1, 2009)

Definitely, competition keeps the consumer happy.  Same reason we need both Intel and AMD to exist.


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## wolf (Aug 1, 2009)

Adding a third company to the mix of cpu and gpu makers would be intense, now I know there are other company's out there that compete, but I'm strictly taking in the sense of high end gaming rigs and the cpu+gpu's needed to power them.

Wouldn't everyone get caught with their pants down if VIA and Matrox teamed up and set a new vantage record?


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## mdm-adph (Aug 3, 2009)

wolf said:


> Sometimes I wonder what people see in their head when they think of these 2 brands....
> 
> Since Nvidia renames it looks like ATi fans are in a twist about it, but when ATi do they very same thing, they're only "replicating" Nvidias "shady" practices to stay in the game.
> 
> ...



You should ask yourself the same question.    There was a reason why "shady" was in parenthesis in my statement.


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## inferKNOX (Aug 3, 2009)

wolf said:


> Adding a third company to the mix of cpu and gpu makers would be intense, now I know there are other company's out there that compete, but I'm strictly taking in the sense of high end gaming rigs and the cpu+gpu's needed to power them.
> 
> Wouldn't everyone get caught with their pants down if VIA and Matrox teamed up and set a new vantage record?



Yeah, but Intel is looking to do that with it's new Larrabee GPU. LOL, it'll be an all out war then!
Imagine, soon the gameplay graphics may be the same as the pre-rendered videos!
W00T that'll be good!


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## danbfree (Dec 11, 2009)

It made it to the US Finally... seems like a good, temporary 4850 replacement and for $119 shipped free when you buy 2 makes for interesting x-fire combo!

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102866&Tpk=4860


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## niko084 (Dec 12, 2009)

newtekie1 said:


> I mean just look at the two lineups compared:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



PLEASE tell me this isn't a comparison at line level...

Because a 4770 EATS a 9500GT for complete and utter disaster, even the 4670 destroys it.
The 9400GT lying around the performance slightly below the 4550.


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## ktr (Dec 14, 2009)

Noice combo package @ newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.308960


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