# What programming language is in-demand, hiring for remote work?



## Space Lynx (Oct 21, 2019)

I have a gf... soon to be fiance that lives in U.K., she does not want to come to the U.S.... so I am stuck with some very crappy choices at the moment. I have applied to several universities for admin type work as I do have a Master's degree, but it is not a technical degree.  So... I am just a bit stuck and nothing seems to be hiring. I do know some basic programming, and I am just going to assume this is the best path for me, to find remote work so I can be with her on a more permanent basis, etc.

I am decent with VB .net... but not super advanced by any measure, and I don't think that is even very marketable from what I know (which is basically nothing of the programming world). I think I could learn any language fast though, as I am very motivated and have a lot of free time to spare. I was thinking Code Academy website or if you can recommend something better?

edit:  would like to note I am very good at math, and was always top in my class... but it has been awhile.   regardless, any advice or tips would be welcome!


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 21, 2019)

Look at some job listings? Example:





						106 Contract Programmer Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com
					

106 Contract Programmer jobs available on Indeed.com. Apply to Software Developer, Vendor Manager, Programmer Analyst and more!




					www.indeed.com
				



...VB generally won't get you a job because it's an entry-level language.


Isn't your masters in psychology?  Why not look into doing remote therapy sessions with clients?  You'd have to get a position with a company that organizes it.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 21, 2019)

I hear m$ outsources a lot of technical help in the UK, to what company IDK.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 21, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Why not look into doing remote therapy sessions with clients?



Buahaha


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

I'm pretty sure UK offers pretty much the same kind of employment US does. 
So if you weren't a rodeo competitor or something like that, why not just get a similar job? Why get into coding at all?

As for entry level coding ideas:

1. The easiest route (but not the best paid, obviously) is to become a front-end coder / tester.
It's the least demanding technically and easiest to start. No one will look at your degree or how well you look in a suit.
You learn a framework (e.g. React, Angular) and you get an entry level front-end dev job - no university math or quantum mechanics involved.

2. The more technical stuff is in back-ends.
You'd have to learn something like Java or Python (or PHP :/), but also get a hang of more complex concepts (like object-oriented programming).
Here a degree or experience helps, so maybe don't go this route just yet.

You could start with some kind of online certificates or bootcamps, i.e. a very intensive coding school (either online or with live workshops).
Online stuff is pretty much free, but you learn on your own - it'll take longer and some people just can't organize themselves well enough.
Live courses cost, but tend to give results much faster (or: at all).

------------------

And of course there are countless other options in databases, big data, data analysis, consulting, project management etc, but again - I wouldn't recommend anything like that for your first job (especially if you need to get it soon).


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## Vya Domus (Oct 21, 2019)

Asking about what language you should learn that is in high demand means you're already on the wrong path. First of all, if you want to do this you can easily look up what languages are popular and pick the top one if you want or simply look at how many listings are for a particular language. Secondly, that's a terrible idea for several reasons but the primary one your going to experience is competition and the inability to stand out from the crowd.

Another thing is that it's not enough to learn a language, that by it self has little chance to get you a job, everyone can learn a syntax. You need to make at least one or several "large" projects on your own to show you can make something usable. By large I mean it should be complex enough in order for you to use a lot of the features which that particular language has.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Oct 21, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Buahaha


That's a thing.
I have an anxiety ridden OCD neighbor that is as controlled through meds as well as possible and he does phone/video appointments because other crazy people are to crazy to worry about personal hygiene so actual psycologist office visits are out but he will go to a regular doctor where people have good personal hygiene.

Oh yeah coincidentally he is a remote tech... Lol


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Buahaha



It's not really comical.  That industry is exploding right now.

Programming is saturated.  I'd avoid getting into it unless you are willing to really make yourself standout.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> It's not really comical.  That industry is exploding right now.



Maybe on your side... good coders are still on short here. We outsource them and borrow from Ukraine or Russia...


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Maybe on your side... good coders are still on short here. We outsource them and borrow from Ukraine or Russia...



Isn't he on my side?  As in, USA?  Or did he stay in england, I get confused.



Ferrum Master said:


> Maybe on your side... good coders are still on short here. We outsource them and borrow from Ukraine or Russia...



Good to know.  I meant at a decent wage for the work put in to learn,though.  He just won't get there IMO.


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> Secondly, that's a terrible idea for several reasons but the primary one your going to experience is competition and the inability to stand out from the crowd.


He's looking for an entry level job. He doesn't need any experience or portfolio. He'll get that during work.


> Another thing is that it's not enough to learn a language, that by it self has little chance to get you a job, everyone can learn a syntax.


Everyone can learn to build cars or cook. But not everyone does. That's the whole point of specialized job market.
So once again: he's looking for an entry level job. What you've said is true for mid level.

One can get a basic testing / support job with zero experience and just an ability to read JavaScript.
This is really just a matter of whether he is fine with the salary and competing with 19-year-olds.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> He's looking for an entry level job. He doesn't need any experience or portfolio. He'll get that during work.



Why?  He has a high level college degree.

I mean yeah I flunked outta college and barely qualified to work for w1zzard at first (dude is just kind).  But why would ge settle for that entry level stuff?

Antways, for coding, they want experience, I've tried.  You don't have that or a tech cert of some kind, it's pretty harsh.  I've been made offers to be payed below minimum wage, under the table, but thats really it.  Most didn't even let me know how uninteresting I was.


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Isn't he on my side?  As in, USA?  Or did he stay in england, I get confused.


He said he wants to move to UK to his partner.

And to be honest, this may not be the worst moment. UK is leaving EU soon, so basically:
- a lot of workforce from EU will leave because of the extra costs and burden,
- GBP went down because of Brexit and is unlikely to recover - people who moved there before 2016 will keep earning 10-20% less than what they've signed up for.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> He said he wants to move to UK to his partner.
> 
> And to be honest, this may not be the worst moment. UK is leaving EU soon, so basically:
> - a lot of workforce from EU will leave because of the extra costs and burden,
> - GBP went down because of Brexit and is unlikely to recover - people who moved there before 2016 will keep earning 10-20% less than what they've signed up for.



Thanks.  Late at night as it is here, my reading comprehension is the first thing to go.


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Why?  He has a high level college degree.


He said it's not technical. So maybe it's literature or art.
Not every degree gives you any kind of skills usable in dev job. 
That's said, obviously, a degree is a sign that someone actually gives a f... and is able to learn stuff.

That said: since he has a degree and (I assume) was able to work in US, I still don't get why the sudden move to coding.


> Antways, for coding, they want experience, I've tried.  You don't have that or a tech cert of some kind, it's pretty harsh.  I've been made offers to be payed below minimum wage, under the table, but thats really it.  Most didn't even let me know how uninteresting I was.


Since this is a coding topic and even "math" has been mentioned, I'll just say that the idea of experience being essential to get a job is logically wrong. 

And yes. Entry level dev jobs are awful. You'll spend most of the time testing and writings documentation - hoping a coding assignment appears once in a while. And it's paid worse that jobs in finance or even in secondary sector.
But that's maybe 2-3 years. Then it gets much better.
And remember: this kind of entry level jobs are mostly for people without a CS degree. With a respectable master in CS you start from mid/senior.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> He said it's not technical. So maybe it's literature or art.
> Not every degree gives you any kind of skills usable in dev job.



It's psych, and a masters too.  we were just discussing that.


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## W1zzard (Oct 21, 2019)

Excellent info, even though slightly skewed towards web technologies: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019

I would probably start learning Java, or Python in your place. What you learn can be adapted to most other programming languages

Good with math, maybe the whole machine learning ecosystem is for you?


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Programming is saturated. I'd avoid getting into it unless you are willing to really make yourself standout.


What in the world are you talking about? In the US demand for software engineers is sky high. I get contacted by multiple people every week on an ongoing basis with job opportunities.


notb said:


> Since this is a coding topic and even "math" has been mentioned, I'll just say that the idea of experience being essential to get a job is logically wrong.


If you suck at math, I suspect you're a pretty bad engineer. Math is sort of important when you're trying to figure out why something might go slow because computational complexity theory matters if you want to not be a garbage dev.

So, I don't want to discourage the OP, but some of the best software engineers I've worked with have either gone to school for either software engineering or computer science. That isn't to say that you can't take some UDemy courses or something and learn stuff, but writing software is a little more complex than just "writing the good code."

For employability, TypeScript/JavaScript, Kotlin/Java, and SQL (my personal favorite is PostgreSQL) are good starting points. Sticking with JVM languages like Scala, Kotlin, and Clojure probably is going to make a lot of in-roads.


W1zzard said:


> Excellent info, even though slightly skewed towards web technologies: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019


I will attest that Clojure developers (as a Clojure developer,) get paid well in the US.






W1zzard said:


> Python


I hate Python. Its syntax is gross.


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## W1zzard (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> I hate Python. Its syntax is gross.


+1 



Aquinus said:


> JavaScript


Not sure if OP wants to end up in the pool of low-paid moving-from-internship-to-internship workers


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> What in the world are you talking about? In the US demand for software engineers is sky high.



I must just be deeply unqualified then.    Not for lack of talent, but meh...

Have a thanks for bringing real statistics to the party.  Even if they remind me how important sheepskin on the wall really is...

From a learning perspective, Java is...  dying.  And I wish it wasn't.  But people now seem to think anything Java is automatically bad and that is taking chunks out of it right and left at least in the home.

Still, learn it.  Also, C#.  Learn that because it's a short hop from Java land, and now you can dual wield languages, which sounds badass and is probably good for versatility and maybe to kill zombies.

Remember this is advice from a frog who could never land a job as a programmer.  You should probably take this advice and do the opposite.  Now you'll be filthy rich!


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> Not sure if OP wants to end up with a low-paid moving-from-internship-to-internship web jobs pool


Not all developers who use JavaScript or TypeScript are entry-level dolts. That's just where people tend to start. If the OP was using TypeScript with Node and not with something like Angular or React.js, then I suspect that it won't be as bad as you think. Backend devs (decent ones,) tend to get paid half-decently. It's the front-end devs who get shafted because a lot of them are good at making things pretty, but suck at making things work.

Edit: Which means they're good with HTML and CSS, but bad at actually writing logic.



R-T-B said:


> From a learning perspective, Java is... dying. And I wish it wasn't. But people now seem to think anything Java is automatically bad and that is taking chunks out of it right and left at least in the home.


Java as a language might be losing popularity, but it's definitely not dead. The JVM certainly isn't dead.

If you like the JVM and all the libraries that come along with it, try Clojure, Kotlin, or Scala.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Java as a language might be losing popularity, but it's definitely not dead. The JVM certainly isn't dead.



I did not say dead either

Court reporting/realtime isn't dead either, I work right now as a security consultant for a firm that handles this.  You can make good money in it, really (being a court reporter).  But it is like Java  dying.  I'd never learn it and expect longevity.


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I did not say dead either


My point is that even if it were, Java is just a language, not the platform. A lot of languages use the JVM.

Oh, and if you're a masochist, you can always learn Haskell, but that doesn't live in the JVM.


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## sepheronx (Oct 21, 2019)

how bout jobs for .net?  Wife is a .net developer and she is looking for a new job.  Prospects in Canada arent the greatest though.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Scala



This was like the #1 hipster langauge at evergreen when I attended.

That and Haskell.  Screw you, Haskell, you're just weird.



Aquinus said:


> Oh, and if you're a masochist, you can always learn Haskell, but that doesn't live in the JVM.



Oh god we summoned the beast at the same moment.

Quick cleansing ritual!  Someone sacrifice a python!


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Screw you, Haskell, you're just weird.


It also has an exceptionally well performing virtual machine. The syntax might be weird AF, but it's actually a pretty potent tool for someone who knows how to write it.

Honestly, I'd rather people use the JVM than continue building these absolutely garbage electron apps.


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## Vya Domus (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> It's the front-end devs who get shafted because a lot of them are good at making things pretty, but suck at making things work.
> 
> Edit: Which means they're good with HTML and CSS, but bad at actually writing logic.



That's because they start out kinda like OP, asking about what's popular and what they should learn. Inevitably someone points them towards something web related, likely front end stuff and they end up knowing how to write some code but not how to program. You need to have some general CS knowledge and from then on learning and switching between languages becomes trivial otherwise a lot of things are going to remain a mystery to you.

In other words asking what language you should learn is simply the wrong question. You first need to know how to program and _then_ you pick the language and the field.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> It also has an exceptionally well performing virtual machine. The syntax might be weird AF, but it's actually a pretty potent tool for someone who knows how to write it.



Yep.  I still hate it.

*Unexpected Yoda Voice*
AND THAT IS WHY YOU FAIL.
*Unexpected Yoda Voice*

...

Shut up, yoda, you would like Haskell!  You friggin talk backwards...



> Honestly, I'd rather people use the JVM than continue building these absolutely garbage electron apps.



Totally with you there.


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> You need to have some general CS knowledge and from then on learning and switching between languages becomes trivial otherwise a lot of things are going to remain a mystery to you.


A lot of the time I would agree with you, but even with this being my area of expertise, it look me a long time to get good with Clojure. It can be pretty hard going from an object-oriented language to a functional language that's a Lisp-1 where immutability is shoved down your throat. In the end, you'll be better for it, but the learning curve is quite steep. Going from PHP, to TypeScript, to Java, to C#, then to Ruby will be pretty easy, but try taking on Clojure, Haskell, or Erlang.


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> Good with math, maybe the whole machine learning ecosystem is for you?


He said he was top of the class. It really doesn't matter if it was high school or math for psychologists.
ML needs a bit more if one wants to do something more than executing learning scripts (which is paid even below the front-end crowd).

This whole "data science" malarkey is really about a small group of math practitioners who create models (and earn a lot) and a huge crowd of badly paid analysts who unconsciously feed these models with data and create colorful graphs.

We had all that earlier. It's just that the "big" data scientists were called "statisticians" or just "modellers". And the rest was called... according to whatever they did: sales analyst, marketing intern...


Aquinus said:


> If you suck at math, I suspect you're a pretty bad engineer. Math is sort of important when you're trying to figure out why something might go slow because computational complexity theory matters if you want to not be a garbage dev.


What I directly aimed at is that you kind of need a job to get experience. That was the logical dillema. ;-)


> So, I don't want to discourage the OP, but some of the best software engineers I've worked with have either gone to school for either software engineering or computer science. That isn't to say that you can't take some UDemy courses or something and learn stuff, but writing software is a little more complex than just "writing the good code."


That really depends.
Seriously, "software engineers" are not just those guys designing complex systems and optimizing C++.
There's a big demand for people with low qualifications for doing very basic stuff: like fixing issues in JS. It's not a big deal and you don't need any math.
You know... someone learns during testing that variables are badly assigned in the form or something.
No Software Architect with CS diploma will give a f... This job goes to an entry level guy.
Testers that I work with are 1st and 2nd year students. They came as interns in July. They've learned JS syntax over a week. They really don't need more.

As I said earlier: it all depends on what OP expects. I don't know him. If he's 20, this could be fine. If he doesn't like coding, he can always move to an analyst position in marketing or something like that. His psychology MA will be perfect. Some coding will make him stand out.

If he's 40 with kids, I'd go safe.



R-T-B said:


> Still, learn it.  Also, C#.  Learn that because it's a short hop from Java land, and now you can dual wield languages, which sounds badass and is probably good for versatility and maybe to kill zombies.


Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that.
There's not much demand for coders who do both Java and C#, so what - you plan to hop from one to another? 

It's much better to focus on an ecosystem and learn multiple technologies.
Both Java and C# markets are enormous and will keep feeding for 20 years - and then you'll have to learn something new anyway.

So I'd go for sets (from languages to DB/BI stuff):

1. Java, Spring, Kotlin, Scala, PL/SQL, Tableau...
2. C#, .Net, C++, SQL Server, Power BI...

And today it's almost essential to add some cloud ecosystem skills, so again: Java goes well with Google Cloud and C# goes well with (obviously) Azure.
AWS is so huge it has to work well with everything.


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> What I directly aimed at is that you kind of need a job to get experience. That was the logical dillema. ;-)


Nah. You learn a lot of this stuff when you get a degree in computer science. Particularly things like algorithm analysis and computation theory. The problem is that without some more fundamental understanding about how computers work and how code gets executed, you're not going to make good design decisions, even when fixing bugs. That's my primary complaint with people who can write code, but don't have a degree in any related field. Knowing how to write code is simply not good enough to be a good dev or engineer.

What good is a dev if they can't understand that the code they wrote will run in exponential time?


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## xkm1948 (Oct 21, 2019)

Interested in Bioinformatics? Booming field right now. But you do need at least a Masters in molecular genetics and at least some entry level programing language like Python. C++ would be ideal though.


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Nah. You learn a lot of this stuff when you get a degree in computer science.


As I said earlier: people who do entry level stuff aren't CS graduates. Or at least very poor ones. 


> Particularly things like algorithm analysis and computation theory.


Things that most "coders" will never do at work. Because what most coders actually do is:

JIRA BANKFRONT-12345: website says "ass for help"
-> analysis: 2h
-> corrected to "ask for help"
-> implementation: 1h
-> status: done by dev



> The problem is that without some more fundamental understanding about how computers work and how code gets executed, you're not going to make good design decisions, even when fixing bugs.


But you're talking about low-level coding. That's such a niche today with microservices and cloud. People just don't do that anymore.

Yes, you need some math to just understand the concept of functions and operators. But that's it for most.

My first coding book (C++) was about 500 pages and the first 100 were all about threads and memory and registers and pointers... I was 12 years old and it was so boring... Sure, later, when I started coding a lot, I learned that this was important. But I liked combinatorics and graph algorithms, so this was somehow useful. But the book was rubbish and I was exhausted even before I wrote the first app that did something useful.

It's not like that anymore. Coding is more about effects and actually showing students that it makes sense and solves problems. And all the pointer garbage is put in the end - for people who's dream is to invent a new sorting algorithms. And most don't give a f... 
And there's a library for everything. And if there isn't, you ask the few CS genius employees to do it, not the random guy that will use it later.

Go to a bank or any other large company, find 10 random young Python or JS coders. I bet half of them won't even know what a pointer is.


> That's my primary complaint with people who can write code, but don't have a degree in any related field. Knowing how to write code is simply not good enough to be a good dev or engineer.


Why would they have to be "good" (whatever you mean by that)?
They're just coders. Their doing their job.

You go to a restaurant and do you care if everyone in the kitchen is a good chef? No. 10% of staff is highly educated and skilled. The rest does what they're told to do.


> What good is a dev if they can't understand that the code they wrote will run in exponential time?


Easy. You tell them: loops and recursion are forbidden.
"This field is called "NAME". This value has to go to the database in field "CLIENT_NAME". Do it."
Seriously, it's not rocket science for most of us. I don't understand where some of the comments here come from.


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> Things that most "coders" will never do at work. Because what most coders actually do is:
> 
> JIRA BANKFRONT-12345: website says "ass for help"
> -> analysis: 2h
> ...


Stupid things like that are probably less than 1% of the tickets I see come across my screen in Jira unless I'm working with outsourced folks who can't speak English worth crap.


notb said:


> But you're talking about low-level coding. That's such a niche today with microservices and cloud. People just don't do that anymore.


That is flat out incorrect. If you're not doing it, I assure you that someone who isn't an idiot probably is. It's also not low-level coding. If your microservice runs like ass, people will notice. I know, this is the realm I live in.


notb said:


> It's not like that anymore. Coding is more about effects and actually showing students that it makes sense and solves problems. And all the pointer garbage is put in the end - for people who's dream is to invent a new sorting algorithms. And most don't give a f...


I won't deny that, but even with higher level languages, like the ones I use, you can still write terribly inefficient code. You don't need C++ to do that. Higher level languages also make concurrency easier to achieve, but you need to understand the consequences of doing that, but the devs handing this aren't the same devs handling misspelled labels. This is the difference between a dev that earns 40k USD a year and one that earns 125k USD a year.


notb said:


> Why would they have to be "good" (whatever you mean by that)?
> They're just coders. Their doing their job.


Would you like a carpenter that didn't know how to properly build houses to construct your home for you? They're not just coders. Just apply that logic to literally anything else.


notb said:


> You go to a restaurant and do you care if everyone in the kitchen is a good chef? No. 10% of staff is highly educated and skilled. The rest does what they're told to do.


You just explained the difference between software developers and software engineers. If you want to make good money, you need to be that 10%.


notb said:


> Easy. You tell them: loops and recursion are forbidden.


Absolutely not. You can't solve every problem without having these kinds of control structures. You tell them to not nest them.


notb said:


> Seriously, it's not rocket science for most of us. I don't understand where some of the comments here come from.


Maybe I'm a bit salty from shitty devs taking my code and ruining it because they're of the caliber that solves the "misspelled label" bugs.

I'm sorry to say it, but bad devs are bad and shitty code ruins codebases. That's why this stuff is important.


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## notb (Oct 21, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Stupid things like that are probably less than 1% of the tickets I see come across my screen in Jira unless I'm working with outsourced folks who can't speak English worth crap.


What kind of business?
Maybe you do a lot of backend stuff or big apps. Maybe mostly commercial clients, not individuals?

I'm talking about a fairly typical environment in a financial firm. At least 1/3rd of all IT workforce is assigned to sales systems (few fronts, few hundred services behind them).



> I know, this is the realm I live in.


I live in it as well, so we just have different experience.
I guess some companies have layers and there's a lot of space for basic coding. Maybe it's not your case.

I work for financial companies and they buy most software - including databases, warehouse etc. And I'm pretty sure the stuff we buy is written by people who know what pointer is.
But coders I work with? The don't even read C++. Seriously. And they do a good job. And earn pretty well.


> This is the difference between a dev that earns 40k USD a year and one that earns 125k USD a year.


YES! This is precisely what this thread is about. Is OP fine with earning $40k? Then yeah, with no math or CS background he should be able to get that.
He will not earn $125k in this business. But most coders don't.


> Would you like a carpenter that didn't know how to properly build houses to construct your home for you? They're not just coders. Just apply that logic to literally anything else.


I would not want a team of carpenters that don't know how to properly build houses.

But I understand that in every team of carpenters there are experienced leaders who know what they're doing and young people who are learning.
And some won't learn, so they'll keep carrying around logs and tools. Well, there's a ceiling for everyone. They're still carpenters though. Someone has to do what they're doing.


> You just explained the difference between software developers and software engineers. If you want to make good money, you need to be that 10%.


Yup. But you can make decent money as an unskilled tester - without a degree or expensive courses. And it's still a much nicer and easier job than, lets say, carrying logs.

We just shouldn't focus so much on the idea that coders are highly skilled and earn a lot. Some do, some don't. We all want to be the 10%, but... it's just that. 10%.


> Absolutely not. You can't solve every problem without having these kinds of control structures. You tell them to not nest them.


You can't solve some problems without calculus on manifolds. You're not proving anything, you know? 

All that matters:
There exists a class of problems that can be solved without loops. And these problems can be given to someone.
Yeah, it's an extreme example. But all I'm trying to say: among all problems that exist there is a subset that's so easy that knowing a syntax and elementary logic is enough. So there can be a distribution of coders. There's a place for senior architects and for testing interns. 


> I'm sorry to say it, but bad devs are bad and shitty code ruins codebases. That's why this stuff is important.


But not every coder can be good. It just doesn't work like that. Nothing does. There's always a distribution.
And if you want to be a good programmer, you need those bad ones, because how to compare otherwise? If every programmer was good, then we would all be average. And salary would be average as well.


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## Flanker (Oct 21, 2019)

Considering OP doesn't have a software dev or compsci background at the moment, applying for any coding job that pays decently is going to be tough one way or another. Not to mention the cultural difference he might have to deal with moving from US to UK. Internships are probably the best place to start. 

I got into this programmer business with a Physics MSc, and I'm not sure I have the guts to do that again. The first couple of months were daunting AF, after that, I actually get to use what I know to develop simulation algorithms, it got comfortable from there.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> There's not much demand for coders who do both Java and C#, so what - you plan to hop from one to another?



*shrugs*.  Do whichever you prefer, but learn both as it will take you like, 2 days tops to learn the second given their commonalities.



Flanker said:


> Considering OP doesn't have a software dev or compsci background at the moment, applying for any coding job that pays decently is going to be tough one way or another.



That was my point.  I'm kind of like him in terms of degrees: zero of them, completely self taught.  Yes, I can pass any test in the majority of classful languages you can think of but no one would ever pay me for it.


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## Space Lynx (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> He said it's not technical. So maybe it's literature or art.
> Not every degree gives you any kind of skills usable in dev job.
> That's said, obviously, a degree is a sign that someone actually gives a f... and is able to learn stuff.
> 
> That said: since he has a degree and (I assume) was able to work in US, I still don't get why the sudden move to coding.



sudden move to coding is because my master's is in philosophy (which I find funny sometimes, because the line of logic philosophers use is very similar to If statements to try to reach some conclusion), I have applied to several Uni's in U.K. for random oddball administration jobs, I don't qualify for professor need PhD for that. had no luck so far on the admin side. also a lot of private companies don't want to shell out the costs of sponsoring me for a work visa. so it's quite tough to actually move to another country.

this thread has made me not want to learn coding... you are right, I would be bottom rung and just living paycheck to paycheck. Just was the first thing that came to mind for remote work. I guess I will keep looking.

I woke up to two pages of comments, so that was interesting, thanks for the feedback  wasn't expecting so much


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 21, 2019)

You probably already know this but:





						What Careers are Available with a Master’s in Philosophy? – The Best Master's Degrees
					






					www.bestmastersdegrees.com
				




In tech, philosophy masters don't code, they deal with implications of bleeding edge technologies like AI and self driving cars.

You could also teach philosophy just not at PhD level.

Maybe you could check if MI5 is hiring (British equivalent to CIA).


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## xkm1948 (Oct 21, 2019)

@lynx29 
Interested in Bioinformatics?  This field pays fairly well and faaaar from saturated. If you like genetics or biology, learn some Python and you may start in this tract.


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## Vario (Oct 21, 2019)

C++ knowledge is always a winner I think, learning that would prepare you for mastery of simpler languages, as well as the related languages C# and Java.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 21, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I have a gf... soon to be fiance that lives in U.K., she does not want to come to the U.S.... so I am stuck with some very crappy choices at the moment. I have applied to several universities for admin type work as I do have a Master's degree, but it is not a technical degree.  So... I am just a bit stuck and nothing seems to be hiring. I do know some basic programming, and I am just going to assume this is the best path for me, to find remote work so I can be with her on a more permanent basis, etc.
> 
> I am decent with VB .net... but not super advanced by any measure, and I don't think that is even very marketable from what I know (which is basically nothing of the programming world). I think I could learn any language fast though, as I am very motivated and have a lot of free time to spare. I was thinking Code Academy website or if you can recommend something better?
> 
> edit:  would like to note I am very good at math, and was always top in my class... but it has been awhile.   regardless, any advice or tips would be welcome!



Going to the UK now, with Brexit nearing completion?

Good luck with that. Its the single worst move to be making right now if you want to make money.

I'd also say C++ btw, there is always demand. But there is a lot of work around IT with light programming involved too, I'd strongly suggest looking into that. All things considered, start with an ITIL course, its great to get the lay of the land.



notb said:


> He said he was top of the class. It really doesn't matter if it was high school or math for psychologists.
> ML needs a bit more if one wants to do something more than executing learning scripts (which is paid even below the front-end crowd).
> 
> This whole "data science" malarkey is really about a small group of math practitioners who create models (and earn a lot) and a huge crowd of badly paid analysts who unconsciously feed these models with data and create colorful graphs.
> ...



This!


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> sudden move to coding is because my master's is in philosophy (which I find funny sometimes, because the line of logic philosophers use is very similar to If statements to try to reach some conclusion), I have applied to several Uni's in U.K. for random oddball administration jobs, I don't qualify for professor need PhD for that. had no luck so far on the admin side. also a lot of private companies don't want to shell out the costs of sponsoring me for a work visa. so it's quite tough to actually move to another country.
> 
> this thread has made me not want to learn coding... you are right, I would be bottom rung and just living paycheck to paycheck. Just was the first thing that came to mind for remote work. I guess I will keep looking.
> 
> I woke up to two pages of comments, so that was interesting, thanks for the feedback  wasn't expecting so much



Philosophy is my brothers major.

Sadly, I'm getting more jobs than him.  Unless you are teaching philosophy...  that ones kinda hard.



Vario said:


> C++ knowledge is always a winner I think, learning that would prepare you for mastery of simpler languages, as well as the related languages C# and Java.



I agree but don't jump to it first, especially if your ownly language is... vb.net.  It's majorly more low level and things will throw you that shouldn't if you aren't ready.  I'd go Java->C#->Then finally, you probably can grasp C++ with minimal pain.

If he still wants this path, that is.

If you want to know what language you should never learn and let die in a dumpsterfire (actually please add gasoline, it actually has fans and that confuses me), there is always this... (NSFW title)

"Hello world" written in the above "language", for fun:



> ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.



Yes, this compiles.  It shouldn't though.  It's an abomination.  It's also morphed into such wonderful languages as "DerpPlusPlus"

Yeah, I'll let the wiki explain this one:

*DerpPlusPlus*, in which the commands are replaced with words such as 'HERP', 'DERP', 'GIGITY', etc.

Just... why?  The only thing this language has ever actually been used for in practice is to hide malware.  That...  does not restore my faith in humanity.  Not one bit.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 21, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> sudden move to coding is because my master's is in philosophy (which I find funny sometimes, because the line of logic philosophers use is very similar to If statements to try to reach some conclusion), I have applied to several Uni's in U.K. for random oddball administration jobs, I don't qualify for professor need PhD for that. had no luck so far on the admin side. also a lot of private companies don't want to shell out the costs of sponsoring me for a work visa. so it's quite tough to actually move to another country.
> 
> this thread has made me not want to learn coding... you are right, I would be bottom rung and just living paycheck to paycheck. Just was the first thing that came to mind for remote work. I guess I will keep looking.
> 
> I woke up to two pages of comments, so that was interesting, thanks for the feedback  wasn't expecting so much



If you're able and willing to learn and you want to go in IT - in the widest range of possible jobs - I could ask around for you in our UK branch. PM. You'd become a consultant.

You will need to have a clear idea of what you'd want - or - what you're good at.


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## Space Lynx (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Philosophy is my brothers major.
> 
> Sadly, I'm getting more jobs than him.  Unless you are teaching philosophy...  that ones kinda hard.
> 
> ...



I have found jobs where I live for philosophy, just jobs that requre a general master's degree. That isn't the issue, the issue is getting to the U.K. and finding a job in the U.k. in anything, I'd even be willing to do warehouse work, etc. I just want to be with my gf/fiance more permanently instead of 3-4 week visits. 



Vayra86 said:


> If you're able and willing to learn and you want to go in IT - in the widest range of possible jobs - I could ask around for you in our UK branch. PM. You'd become a consultant.
> 
> You will need to have a clear idea of what you'd want - or - what you're good at.



I will PM you later tomorrow, I need to research that a bit. You know me quite a bit from these forums. I keep up with almost everything in the tech industry and gaming industry. I am quite knowledgeable overall on everything, just a master of nothing... except philosophy apparently, haha jk


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I have found jobs where I live for philosophy, just jobs that requre a general master's degree. That isn't the issue, the issue is getting to the U.K. and finding a job in the U.k. in anything, I'd even be willing to do warehouse work, etc. I just want to be with my gf/fiance more permanently instead of 3-4 week visits.



My brother's case is... different admitedly.  He suffers from severe depression.  Maybe the philosophy major is related...  thinking hurts, sometimes.  I try to avoid it.  He didn't listen.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 21, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I have found jobs where I live for philosophy, just jobs that requre a general master's degree. That isn't the issue, the issue is getting to the U.K. and finding a job in the U.k. in anything, I'd even be willing to do warehouse work, etc. I just want to be with my gf/fiance more permanently instead of 3-4 week visits.
> 
> 
> 
> I will PM you later tomorrow, I need to research that a bit. You know me quite a bit from these forums. I keep up with almost everything in the tech industry and gaming industry. I am quite knowledgeable overall on everything, just a master of nothing... except philosophy apparently, haha jk



Word of warning, following tech news is not going to get you a job 

Its hard to make these choices. But jobs are first and foremost about _services_. The whole business IT landscape is all about services. If you have an idea of what kind of thing you want to be doing, also take a long look at what kind of jobs that would net you or what kind of services you could handle.

And... no rush. If its not tomorrow, all good. I'm not going anywhere and this isn't something to decide overnight.


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Word of warning, following tech news is not going to get you a job



Lies.

It can get you a job.  It just doesn't...  feed you.

I guess you could live off some ramen noodles out of a cardboard box, but you'll need to steal someones wifi for the posts, and I think that'd be weird.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Lies.
> 
> It can get you a job.  It just doesn't...  feed you.
> 
> I guess you could live off some ramen noodles out of a cardboard box, but you'll need to steal someones wifi for the posts, and I think that'd be weird.



Well... not in the context of the company I work for 

Also... lol!


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## R-T-B (Oct 21, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Well... not in the context of the company I work for
> 
> Also... lol!



I really need to be clear so no one gets in a huff about my post there:

What I said is true, but I lived with my folks.  W1zzard is still a saint for employing me (I had like, zero realworld experience and a college paper that didn't even remember me as my resume listing), but I'll be frank:  Small, part time hours at near minimum wage feeds nobody.  That is normal, and not a complaint at all.  In that scenario, it's survival of the fattest.  You loot your parents refrigerator or get another job.  Guess what I did?


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## Space Lynx (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I really need to be clear so no one gets in a huff about my post there:
> 
> What I said is true, but I lived with my folks.  W1zzard is still a saint for employing me (I had like, zero realworld experience and a college paper that didn't even remember me as my resume listing), but I'll be frank:  Small, part time hours at near minimum wage feeds nobody.  That is normal, and not a complaint at all.  In that scenario, it's survival of the fattest.  You loot your parents refrigerator or get another job.  Guess what I did?



Yeah I live with my parents still too, but I have a bit in savings so a move for me will not be that hard overall, it's just a matter of landing the job now and work visa.



Vayra86 said:


> Word of warning, following tech news is not going to get you a job
> 
> Its hard to make these choices. But jobs are first and foremost about _services_. The whole business IT landscape is all about services. If you have an idea of what kind of thing you want to be doing, also take a long look at what kind of jobs that would net you or what kind of services you could handle.
> 
> And... no rush. If its not tomorrow, all good. I'm not going anywhere and this isn't something to decide overnight.



I understand, but every little bit does help overall. If some boss IT guy is talking to me about some high level stuff I will still have somewhat of an idea what he/she means I expect. Whereas if I just worked in a warehouse all my life, never read news, and played console games all day, I'd probably have no idea.


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## Vya Domus (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> I agree but don't jump to it first, especially if your ownly language is... vb.net.  It's majorly more low level and things will throw you that shouldn't if you aren't ready.  I'd go Java->C#->Then finally, you probably can grasp C++ with minimal pain.



The first language that I learned was C++, everyone I know also learned C++ first. It's not that tough, it's still a high level language at the end of they day.

I always find these recommendations to avoid low level stuff strange, 30 years ago you didn't have a choice. If people could learn and write stuff just fine back then, they can also do that today especially when stuff like C++ kept on being modernized and it's much more palatable now.


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## Aquinus (Oct 21, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Yes, this compiles. It shouldn't though. It's an abomination. It's also morphed into such wonderful languages as "DerpPlusPlus"


I've actually written a BrainFuck interpreter in Clojure. It can run the Hello World program, but can't handle input yet. It's actually a testament to how concise Clojure code can be.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 21, 2019)

W1zzard said:


> Excellent info, even though slightly skewed towards web technologies: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019
> 
> I would probably start learning Java, or Python in your place. What you learn can be adapted to most other programming languages
> 
> Good with math, maybe the whole machine learning ecosystem is for you?


I was going to say those as my company are hiring python coders atm, im not one btw.


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## R-T-B (Nov 7, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> I always find these recommendations to avoid low level stuff strange



On the contrary, I think everyone should start with assembly and work up.

Issue is, he started with VB.net.  That...  changes his paradighm a bit.

EDIT: just realized this was a slightly late reply, oh well...



Aquinus said:


> I've actually written a BrainFuck interpreter in Clojure. It can run the Hello World program, but can't handle input yet. It's actually a testament to how concise Clojure code can be.



I like you.  Please don't tell me shit like this and change that.


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