# Help with New gaming rig that is most needed



## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

Hey all! Will start by saying that I'm pleased to join you guys. 

I've read many reviews, blog, benches in the past 2 months and I think I'm close to ready to buy my new rig. Keep in mind that I haven't setup a rig for 6+ years and the last time I studied in comp eng. was 10+ years ago.

I'm looking to build a gaming rig that will not likely (I wish) go over $1500 CAN (living in Montreal, Canada).

*USE*: Gaming. high-end one mostly. Looking at you Crysis and Metro!
*ENV*: The rig will be placed in a medium size room with another PD running (maybe 2) so I need something quiet for the most part and not too hot. (yeh I'm dreaming a lil' coz I want to OC it)
*BUY*: Will mostly buy my parts from sohodiffusion (http://www.sohodiffusion.com/) and will go pick them up since I want to see them before giving away my money (seals, pins, etc.)

RIG:
*CPU* = Intel i7 920 I do want to OC it (wanted a D0, but none left there and the 920 is around 250$ tops, 930 = 310$)
*MOBO* = MSI Big Bang xpower (wanted something to last, cuz on my last rig, I had to change the mobo twice in a short period of time due to misinformation)
*MEMORY* = G-skill RIPJAWS 6GB DDR3-2000 CL9-9-9-24 240PIN TRIPLE CHANNEL ( looked at some review and they look decent. need help with optimized mem with my mobo)
*COOLING* = Thermaltake Frio CLP0564
*CASE* = Thermaltake Element G (mostly for the fans, finish and the cable management)
*GPU* = Gigabyte GTX460 1gb x 1 for now, in SLI in a near future. (that I plan to OC, need something quiet. could go for the MSI counterpart)

And now my question, the PSU. I've look at the occ reviews and been around TechPowerUp! and my last choice was to go with a Thermaltake TPX-875M... BUT! I read mixed reviews regarding the fact that the PSU was mostly made for being installed on a top rack and not at the bottom like it would be in the Element G. The Cables would seem (according to some users) to be a bit misplaced and the stupid leds and lettering would be upside down. SO, I'm looking for help to choose a nice PSU in the same range (almost silver) that could easily manage a SLI of 2 GTX 460, high voltage ram, many fans+cpu cooler and an OC'ed i7 920.

The display and the HDD are not an issue atm.

In conclusion, I need help with the PSU choice and maybe a feedback on the RAM or why should I go lower with better timing.

If you need links for the parts, I'll do my best because I'm at work atm 

Have a great day, thank you for your help 
HoboBob


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## Deleted member 74752 (Aug 16, 2010)

If I could not get a DO version 920 I would not buy it. Hard to believe one cannot be found.


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## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

They were selling it for under 290$, but not anymore... 

The stock 920 is now at 257$. Which is way more than a 930. Correct me if I'm wrong but many user choose stock 920 over 930? Better overclocking? 

Thx,
HoboBob


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## Deleted member 74752 (Aug 16, 2010)

In general, yes the 920's usually are better oc'ers. Try the FS sections...someone usually has one posted.


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## Dent1 (Aug 16, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> (http://www.sohodiffusion.com/) and will go pick them up



Stay away from that website it is overpriced. The cheapest ATI 5750 is $153 opposed to $132 on newegg.ca and the cheapest GTX460 768MB is $225 opposed to $199 on newegg.ca


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## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

True, I knew that, altho I have to order from newegg.ca and the prices are way higher then the .com one with less deals and over the top shipping.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm the kind of guy who likes to see, live, what he's buying.


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## phanbuey (Aug 16, 2010)

I would save the money on the CPU... if Gaming is your call then 1. drop the CPU and mobo... a i5 750 and a cheap $80 1156 mobo will save you money for a better GPU... then go for a 480 or a 5890.


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 16, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> True, I knew that, altho I have to order from newegg.ca and the prices are way higher then the .com one with less deals and over the top shipping.
> 
> Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm the kind of guy who likes to see, live, what he's buying.



TBH, you get a BETTER grip online of what your buying. In a local shop all you see is a box, and a limited inventory. Online you get specs, pics of the item(s) out of the box, and have the convenience of not leaving your home.

EDIT

I am with you on that, PB. Could cut the cost of the rig by ~25% with an amd athlon II x4 6x0 + 8 series chipset.


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## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

Thx for the reply. 

I should have included that my gf might steal the rig when she needs it for grafx design/illustration. I'm won't enter the AMDx6 vs Intel i7 for artsy stuff and tools .

Altho, the i5 may do the job, I rarely change my rig, so I was hoping for long lasting rig, than just a pay and play box. (the other reason is that gf are another source of sicking money. wanna get something that will last as long as my AMD 3600+ 7600GT that've been around for years)

I might be wrong, again, hey that is why I'm asking the great community of TPU! 

Thx,
HoboBob


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 16, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> Thx for the reply.
> 
> 
> Altho, the i5 may do the job, I rarely change my rig, so I was hoping for long lasting rig, than just a pay and play box.



That's where I'm beleiving an AM3 socket based PC would come in handy. s1156/s1366 are pretty much already dead and no new procs for them AFAIK have been announced.


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## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

Sadness 

Well, I dunno much about the AM3 because I've only read webby about i7 920-930 

Keep in mind that I'm not looking to build the cheapest machine, I have around 1500$ to spend and that is what I was minded to pay. 

For the i7, the 2nd gen of i7 will not be on the same socket or did they announce a new socket/cpu recently? I know they were talking about a 2nd wave, but it's more and more out of my league. So much to read, so little time...

AM3 would mean to fetch up new info and reviews and a new parts list for you guys to judge 

Thx again,
HoboBob


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## Dent1 (Aug 16, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> wanna get something that will last as long as my AMD 3600+ 7600GT that've been around for years



We can not make that promise and personally I wouldnt recommend keeping a computer for 6 years if you value any type of performance. 

But for the best chance of having a rig lasting a long time is to shoot for a lasting platform, as JrRacinFan said socket AM3 is going to be around for a while and the Phenom II X6 has a lot of untapped potential so it'll only get better with time even if it doesnt initially look as impressive in today's benchmarks.


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## phanbuey (Aug 16, 2010)

Phenoms are not great for gaming tho...  Dont go AM3 for gaming, its a slower platform than even 1156 in that regard.  

In any case.  Your board and memory are where you can save the most $$.  The MSI is way over the top and will not give you any better performance than x58 boards from ASUS and Gigabyte at 1/3 the price, also memory speed gives minimal benefits after 1600 CL 8.  Then spend the cash you saved on a better gfx setup.

460 SLI is good but I personally prefer 1 GPU setups for performance.  Something like a Zotac 480 AMP! with the custom cooling, overclocked will give you great, smoothe performance.


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## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

Awesome replies guys! 

Changed some parts (not the 920 tho, will try to come up with an AMD rig tonight if it's worth it), altho I have mixed signals for the mobo:

*MOBO *= GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R SKT.1366
http://www.sohodiffusion.com/prod/14288/GIGABYTE-GA-X58A-UD3R-SKT-1366-INTL-X58-3-CHANNEL.html 

*CPU *= INTEL CORE I7-920
http://www.sohodiffusion.com/prod/10807/INTEL-CORE-I7-920-QUAD-CORE-2-66GHZ-8MB-CACHE-LGA.html

*RAM *= KINGSTON KHX1600C7D3K3/6GX 6GB 1600MHz DDR3 Non-ECC CL7 (went lower with better timing)
http://www.sohodiffusion.com/prod/16705/KINGSTON-KHX1600C7D3K3-6GX-6GB-1600MHz-DDR3-Non-EC.html 

*GPU *= GIGABYTE GEFORCE GTX 460 FERMI 715MHZ 1GB (from another retailer tho)
http://www.sohodiffusion.com/prod/17268/GIGABYTE-GEFORCE-GTX-460-FERMI-715MHZ-1GB-GDDR5-2X.html

The Zotac GTX480 AMP! looks nice, but sure looks noisy. The rig would be in a medium size work room, and with the cpu cooling (from op) I dunno if it's a good idea... but I do understand your point PB. 

Still trying to find a compatible PSU with the case and it must has 4 x 6 pin conectors for future SLI. Regarding the mono, the UD7 have so much praise that I thought the UD3R would be a cheaper version, what say you!?!

Thx,
HoboBob


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## Dent1 (Aug 16, 2010)

phanbuey said:


> Phenoms *X6s* are not great for gaming *yet...  *Dont go AM3 for gaming, its a slower platform than even 1156 in that regard, *at the moment*



Fixed 



phanbuey said:


> In any case.  Your board and memory are where you can save the most $$.  The MSI is way over the top and will not give you any better performance than x58 boards from ASUS and Gigabyte at 1/3 the price, also memory speed gives minimal benefits after 1600 CL 8.  Then spend the cash you saved on a better gfx setup.



I agree with you there, you'd be better off with a cheaper motherboard if it means diverting funds into a better CPU and/or video card.




HoboBob said:


> For the i7, the 2nd gen of i7 will not be on the same socket or did they announce a new socket/cpu recently?a



I'm not sure how accurate this website's article is but apparently intel's new motherboard socket is around the corner.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2010/04/12/new-socket-to-replace-lga1366-due-in-2011/1


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 16, 2010)

phanbuey said:


> Phenoms are not great for gaming tho...  Dont go AM3 for gaming, its a slower platform than even 1156 in that regard.
> 
> In any case.  Your board and memory are where you can save the most $$.  The MSI is way over the top and will not give you any better performance than x58 boards from ASUS and Gigabyte at 1/3 the price, also memory speed gives minimal benefits after 1600 CL 8.  Then spend the cash you saved on a better gfx setup.
> 
> 460 SLI is good but I personally prefer 1 GPU setups for performance.  Something like a Zotac 480 AMP! with the custom cooling, overclocked will give you great, smoothe performance.



i do believe Core 2 Phenom II and i7 were compared and in 1 single gpu situations not a god damn 1 of the cpus was better then the other in 99% of games in dual gpu I7 had more grunt to push them 























simply put higher frame rates are always good but notice 99% of the time the minimum frame rate is the same and in intense scenes its the frame rate that matters most and all cpus test pretty much give out the same results 

i was trying to find the article that tested Phenom II vs Core2 vs Core i7 that was much more extensive but had no luck sadly


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## phanbuey (Aug 16, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> i do believe Core 2 Phenom II and i7 were compared and in 1 single gpu situations not a god damn 1 of the cpus was better then the other in 99% of games in dual gpu I7 had more grunt to push them
> 
> http://alienbabeltech.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Crysis_19.jpg
> http://alienbabeltech.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/UT3_19.jpg
> ...



Yup - you're absolutely right... in reality you wouldnt see a any difference between CORE and Phenom.

My gf's rig is a lowly Athlon X4 at 3.5Ghz and it games no differently than my i5 750 with the GTX 260.  Literally no difference that is visible to the naked eye.


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## HoboBob (Aug 16, 2010)

1. The cheap i7 920 went fast at my supplier and seem out of stock for a while. I either wait for a 930 rig or maybe, wait some more for future price drop in the i7.

2. What makes the phenom x6 1090 slower for gaming? I'm at a loss when it comes to AM3, because I planned to go i7 920 and did not read anything regarding it's lil' brother.

3. The PSU question is still up and waiting  . Since the case is the Thermaltake Element G and it is a bottom PSU rack, what do you suggest for a 2 SLI gtx460?

Thx again,
(back from work, so I might have more questions regarding AM3 and all that jazz) 

HoboBob


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> 2. What makes the phenom x6 1090 slower for gaming? I'm at a loss when it comes to AM3, because I planned to go i7 920 and did not read anything regarding it's lil' brother.



The Deneb or Thuban architecture of the Phenom II Series is core for core is slower than the i7's Nehalem architecture because the i7 has more cache, access to 2 threads per core and access to more memory bandwidth. The Phenom II X6 compensates with the two additional cores which help in multi threaded environments like encoding and rendering. But in single threaded or non 6 threaded environments like games the Phenom II X6 can not utilise those cores. However today's games are moving towards multi-threading so the Phenom II X6 gaming will only improve like a fine wine with time.


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 17, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> Awesome replies guys!
> 
> Changed some parts (not the 920 tho, will try to come up with an AMD rig tonight if it's worth it), altho I have mixed signals for the mobo:
> 
> ...




Great parts, that UD3R is an awesome mobo. The i7 920 is out of stock btw, don't see it listed on that website anymore.

As others have mentioned above, Core i7 (LGA1366 and LGA1156) and maybe even Core i5 will bench higher than AM3 in games, but you'd be hard pressed to find any difference in actual gaming, especially if you are going to overclock.

So if your sole purpose with this PC is to game, then buy either an AM3 quad black edition (or X6 1055T if it's not much more expensive) or a Core i5, whichever platform cost the least, and put the rest toward the graphic card or a *SSD boot drive*. I don't know about Canadian pricing, but the difference from switching mobo and buying 2 sticks of RAM vs 3 sticks should save you a good chunck. A Kingston 64gb SSD was down to $100 shipped on Newegg recently, so you might be able to squeeze one in, again I'm not familiar with Canadian pricing to be sure.

And actually, the Zotac GTX 480 AMP is supposed to be pretty quiet b/c the Zalman VF3000 cooler runs a lot quieter than the stock one. There's also a fan controller that comes with it and you can adjust fan speed for idle/load. Plus, lifetime warranty  Only thing I don't like about it is that it takes up 3 slots.


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## HoboBob (Aug 17, 2010)

@eb3 Yeah, like I said my last post, they have no more i7 920, they usually have a lot of units, but they had two deals in the last week. 247$ and 257 for a 920, and they gone now!

@Dent1 Looking at the 1090T BE, it's sold for 295$ at my retailer and the 1055 is at 205$. My biggest issue with going AMD is the lack of good (Crosshair IV category) of mobo that supports nSLI. Duh, yeah but the main reason of the rig was to go 2SLI with a pair of 460, because the GF104 is cool, scale like hell and is not too power hungry... tears 

If I go with AMD, I'll def. pick the CH IV, it looks so damn good.  Altho, can any of you tell me if it would support a gtx480 (I so don't want a BBQ, but if I don't have the choice...  ). I'm really scared to go with ATI atm since the 6000 are soon to be launched and the fact that physx/cuda is more something that will come over, hence the purpose of the rig, for future games and not the one that are mainly released.

Thx again, have a great day, 
HoboBob


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> @Dent1 Looking at the 1090T BE, it's sold for 295$ at my retailer and the 1055 is at 205$.



The 1055T sounds like the better deal, they're effectively the same processor except the 1090T has the unlocked multi, but the 1055T overclocks just as well.




HoboBob said:


> My biggest issue with going AMD is the lack of good (Crosshair IV category) of mobo that supports nSLI. Duh, yeah but the main reason of the rig was to go 2SLI with a pair of 460, because the GF104 is cool, scale like hell and is not too power hungry... tears



You could CF the 5770 or 5750 now and then add another two 5770 or 5750 at a later date to make 4 video cards. This option will be much faster than a SLI'd GTX460 1GB whilst costing almost the same.




HoboBob said:


> If I go with AMD, I'll def. pick the CH IV, it looks so damn good.



They are only good if you intend on running 3-4 video cards.

For regular crossfire you'd be better off with a standard 890 or 785G chipset for $100-$160 and using the money saved on something else.



HoboBob said:


> Altho, can any of you tell me if it would support a gtx480 (I so don't want a BBQ, but if I don't have the choice...  ).




The GTX 480 will work in any motherboard that has a PCIE slot so the CH IV will work fine. However you'd only be able to run only one Nvidia card and hence defeating the purpose of CrossfireX.




HoboBob said:


> I'm really scared to go with ATI atm since the 6000 are soon to be launched and the fact that physx/cuda is more something that will come over, hence the purpose of the rig, for future games and not the one that are mainly released.



Phyx was dead before it began, its a marketing gimmick. The very few Phyx games work just as well on ATI cards. I wouldnt worry about the ATI 6000 series otherwise we'll never upgrade.


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## phanbuey (Aug 17, 2010)

Dent1 said:


> The 1055T sounds like the better deal, they're effectively the same processor except the 1090T has the unlocked multi, but the 1055T overclocks just as well.
> 
> 
> You could CF the 5770 or 5750 now and then add another two 5770 or 5750 at a later date to make 4 video cards. *This option will be much faster than a SLI'd GTX460 1GB whilst costing almost the same.*



OK... really?  4 Videocards?  Have you seen ATI's quadfire/trifire drivers?  Tri/quadfire gets beaten by Crossfire about 40% of the time.  So that would be one of the biggest wastes of money possible.  Also a SLI 460 setup beats a CFx5870 setup due to ATI's drivers... and a trifire 5770 setup cant touch a cfx 5870 setup.  so basically buying 4 5770's is a H U G E mistake.

The difference between a 

i5 750 setup at 4GHz with 460 1gb OC SLI 750W Corsair TX and a Cheapo GigaByte board with 4-8GB of ddr3 1600

and a

i7 930 setup at 4ghz with 460 1gb OC sli 850W and a UD3 with 6GB of DDR3 1600 CL3 will be no more than 5%, with the same minimum FPS, in 99% of games today and tomorrow.

Both of these setups would be faster than an AMD X6 at gaming

Price is i5 <<< AMD << i7 - the whole time you're not looking at a noticeable difference with 460's in sli.  Performance is AMD < i5 < i7.

Its your money, you're just paying way too much for the performance that you will ultimately get.  You want to spend as little money as possible on CPU and Ram while maintaining decent spec, get a decent budget OCing board, a decent soundcard, and spend as much money as possible for GFX.


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

Whether the quadfire drivers work as intended is another matter, obviously crossfireX is a new concept which is only now becoming popular so it takes a while for ATI to mature the drivers, often reviewers are given video cards early so the drivers have not been established so the reviews are bound to be negative. But when CrossfireX works as intended it will blow SLI'd 460s out the water that is for sure. 

Now personally I do not like the idea of running 4 video cards at all, crossfire is fine for most people. But frankly if the Crosshair MB is being used you may as well take advantage of its only credit.



phanbuey said:


> Both of these setups would be faster than an AMD X6 at gaming *in 2010*



But the OP said he wanted this rig to last 6 full years like his old 7600GT/3600+. If the rig has to last that long wouldnt he be better losing a bit of gaming performance now if it means that 3+ years from now he still has a capable rig?


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## HoboBob (Aug 17, 2010)

Thx to both of you for your great replies. 

Although, it looks like we are in a pickle 

Will try to sort things out during lunch, since I'm working atm 


Will be back later to add a better reply then this one 
HoboBob


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 17, 2010)

I am not swayed I still say go with an X6 1055T. Another thing i want to mention, with new tech coming out so quickly in this modern age, you may have to upgrade your video cards in about year and half 2 years. With that said, go with a single gpu.


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## HoboBob (Aug 17, 2010)

Is there any plus to go with the Black Edition type of CPU? I mean, I've read that some RAM would do more, but, what would I lose if I go with the 1055 over the 1090 ?

If I go with the CH IV, what GPU would be best, a 5850 to start and add more along the run?

Thx, (trying to look at a AMD rig atm)

HoboBob


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 17, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> Is there any plus to go with the Black Edition type of CPU? I mean, I've read that some RAM would do more, but, what would I lose if I go with the 1055 over the 1090 ?
> 
> If I go with the CH IV, what GPU would be best, a 5850 to start and add more along the run?
> 
> ...



What's the budget again, I'll price you up a little rig pretty quick.


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## HoboBob (Aug 17, 2010)

1500$ Keep in mind that it's in $CAN and that I might have to buy it from a retailer since newegg.ca have not all the deals, rebates and free shipping than its US cousin.

Thx a lot guys, 

HoboBob


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## HoboBob (Aug 17, 2010)

I came up for with a decent AMD rig. Altho, you guys might think it is a bit too pricey, esp. since it is using a CH IV. But I think I'll add another 5850 along the run... yeah I know, I know not my fault if all the board are ugly blue and the CH IV is red n black and fits the rest of the rig... 

Case = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133086
CPU = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103851
Mobo = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131644
RAM = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226123
PSU = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139011
GPU = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121375
Cooling = http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835106150

Under $CAN 1300, minus the shipping and the taxes 

What say you!

Thx,
HoboBob


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 17, 2010)

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152185
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128435
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106334
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811139002
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.457336

Now video card ....

This:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127500
or
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125333

Cart minus video card










EDIT:

*If you don't mind buying used *
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=127163


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

HoboBob there is no point buying a Crosshair IV and the 5850 unless you have decided to make the commitment to buy 4 of them for CrossfireX. Otherwise you're flushing $100-150 down the toilet.

JrRacinFan's choice of motherboard is better given that its alot cheaper for the same CrossfireX specification.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 17, 2010)

only 1 issue with that ram JR its tall heatsink and since hes using AMD that means most decent HSF wont fit properly unless he uses the other slots and that would rule out more ram later on etc if he plains to stick to 4gigs then no big deal tho then again for the price of the combo id just hack saw the heatsinks lol or remove them if possible and replace them with something else thats low profile


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## Wulfgar (Aug 17, 2010)

Why people buy new rigs to play Crysis is beyond me. It's just a mediocre FPS...

Anyway, that GTX 460 won't be enough for Crysis (did I mention it's poorly coded ?) at full HD resolutions. 
Metro 2033 might run well on DX10 mode but you can forget about DX11 without a GTX 480. It's a much better game however.


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

Wulfgar said:


> Why people buy new rigs to play Crysis is beyond me. It's just a mediocre FPS...
> 
> Anyway, that GTX 460 won't be enough for Crysis (did I mention it's poorly coded ?) at full HD resolutions.
> Metro 2033 might run well on DX10 mode but you can forget about DX11 without a GTX 480. It's a much better game however.



I think you're exaggerating slightly. I see no reason why a GTX460 couldnt max out Crysis at full settings and @ full HD with 2x/4xAA, people have been doing it with lesser video cards and processors for years.

I can max Crysis out at full settings on my rig easily, granted its not full HD because it's only a 19" screen but its beyond 720p. The OP shouldnt have a issue with games at all.

But I would agree that building any rig just for Crysis or just for one game isnt wise.


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## HoboBob (Aug 17, 2010)

@ Wulfgar Hahaha I'm with you on this, altho, I said Crysis and Metro since they are the games to beat fps wise (I know there's a couple more).

Thx, for the info guys. I'll be right back later tonight to check the rig.

Any input on a RAM that is not too tall, cuz I think the Frio might try to hump the heatspreader/fan with a tall ram.

ttyl, thx

HoboBob


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## phanbuey (Aug 17, 2010)

Wulfgar said:


> Why people buy new rigs to play Crysis is beyond me. It's just a mediocre FPS...
> 
> Anyway, that GTX 460 won't be enough for Crysis (did I mention it's poorly coded ?) at full HD resolutions.
> Metro 2033 might run well on DX10 mode but you can forget about DX11 without a GTX 480. It's a much better game however.



FINALLY!!! Yes.

If you're spending $1500 on a *GAMING RIG* and not at least getting a 5970 or a 480, you're doing it wrong.


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

phanbuey said:


> FINALLY!!! Yes.
> 
> If you're spending $1500 on a *GAMING RIG* and not at least getting a 5970 or a 480, you're doing it wrong.



He isnt American so $1500 gets you alot less in Canada. $1500 isnt even needed for a gaming rig, a GTX 460 1GB is still high end and can squash any game in its path.



phanbuey said:


> Right because Q U A D F I R E was so much better... retard.



I never recommended quadfire. I said its a possibility if the buys a quadfire board, I was opposed to the Crosshair IV board.

Edit: Sorry about the palm face, I couldnt resist.


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## phanbuey (Aug 17, 2010)

Right because Q U A D F I R E was so much better... 

but seriously... a 6-core and a midrange card is just a rig.  It won't play games well at all... you're much better off with a lower processor board and ram and something like a 480 or 5970. 

If i put a 5970 in YOUR rig right now... with your AMD Athlon X4, that rig will game 2x better than what you just recommended him and will probably cost less. You would need a new PSU but thats about it.


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## Dent1 (Aug 17, 2010)

The GTX 460 1GB falls a little bit higher than midrange, its only a little bit slower than the 5850.  I would say midrange would be the ATI 5830, 5770 or Nvidia's upcoming GTS 450. 

In some respects you are right, if $1500 is being spent then a faster video card is within budget than the 480 or 5970 could be bought. My dispute is that the performance of the GTX 460 1GB shouldn’t be downplayed because its a beast of a card and can handle anything in its path. I actually think the $1500 budget is too much for what he requires.

Also bear in mind the OP has his heart on crossfire or SLI. A single 5970 is $700 in Canada whereas a single GTX 460 1GB is $240 or $480 in SLI.

The OP will save about $200 if he gets the SLI GTX 460 and will enjoy better performance than a single 5970!


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 17, 2010)

@pb & dent

Posted those 2 video cards being a bare minimum to go with.


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 17, 2010)

No need for a GTX 480 or 5970 and skimp out on the CPU. A GTX 460 for now and one more later will be plenty fast for a while, it's not like OP's trying to stay on the cutting edge anyways.

Also, since OP said he doesn't want to upgrade too often and just stick with what he's got for a number of years, a pair of GTX 460s right now will stay that way - can't do tri-SLI or anything of that sort. Whereas if he got a GTX 480 now he might be tempted to buy a second one later, and have to upgrade his PSU so something in the 1000w range. 

I'd say get a 1055T now and pair it w/ something like the 890FXA-UD5 and overclock it. Most will OC to 3.8~4ghz and it will provide similar gaming experience as the i5 750 at similar clocks. But the upside here is that it will do better in video/photo editing due to having more cores, and when Bulldozer rolls out, upgrading to that will be an option as the first ones are supposed to be AM3 socket or at least backward compatible with AM3. 

So the only bummer is no SLI support on decent AMD mobos, so maybe try the SLI hack? I'm sure you can do it on the UD5 though I haven't done it on mine, but there's a 200+ page thread on OCN dedicated to the UD5 and I'm sure somebody over there has figured it out by now


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## phanbuey (Aug 17, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> No need for a GTX 480 or 5970 and skimp out on the CPU. A GTX 460 for now and one more later will be plenty fast for a while, i*t's not like OP's trying to stay on the cutting edge anyways.*
> ///



From OP: *USE: Gaming. high-end one mostly. Looking at you Crysis and Metro!*

You are recommending the rig in ur specs with a GTX 460.

For high-end gaming you need a high end gaming gfx setup.  Nothing less than a 480 or 5870 will do.  GTX 460 SLI is the best suggestion, but he will need it off the bat.  Also SLi hacking is not something I would recommend.  That's all IMO - if you want a general purpose rig then that is fine too... I just thought we was gaming


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

But there is also a budget to consider. You don't _need_ the best and latest in GPU technology to have a good experience in gaming. Crysis and Metro are two examples that brings even the most powerful cards down to their knees (less so for Crysis now since it's 3yrs old). Hell, if OP gets a 30" monitor and wants to turn up all the eye candy, not even SLI 480s will be enough to play Metro.

The CPU I suggested is more generalized, since the OP mentioned that his gf might use it for other things as well. Plus, overclocked to 4ghz, it'll offer the same perceivable performance as the i5s and i7s. Intel will bench higher all day, but if you can't see the difference w/ your eyes, I would rather keep the change.

The point isn't to make a PC that's all out gaming w/o regard to anything else, it's to build the best performing PC (w/ an emphasis toward gaming) that fits under the budget. For the best gaming experience the OP should get an i5 670 and OC it to 5ghz and buy a 5970, but that would cripple his PC's multi-threaded performance and he'd probably have to skimp on some other area like the case or PSU or HD. 

So personally, I feel that AM3/X6 offers more expandability in the CPU area due to bulldozer and future software optimization (for 6 cores) whereas LGA1156 is done, which is why I went with it and recommended it. However, an i7 860 is plenty fast and will probably last him a good while (dunno about 6 years). I don't see the reason to go w/ LGA1366 though unless OP really wants 24gb of RAM down the road.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Wow thx a lot guys!!! 

Just came back home, sry for the lack of reply! 

It sucks that no farking AMD board would do a basic 2SLI. srsly... I would love to go AM3 and not be forced to buy a new bloody mobo next year, but at what cost? Going with a 5870 and hoping that they magically come up with xfire that does not suck scalling wise (looking at how awesome the GF104 scales :shadedshu )

And yes it is for high-end gaming, so a min of 1920 is in plan. And yes, buying parts in canada is more expensive. So far the low cost rig is nice but will it last me long, I dunno. I don't have to buy the rig tomorrow. Should I wait a bit or is it pointless? What say you!?!

Thx again for your wonderful replies,

HoboBob


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Bob, you already got a monitor right? If not you gotta add that into your budget as well. Over here a decent 1080p monitor is around $200, so budget accordingly.

You _have_ to buy tomorrow? Why in such a big hurry?


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3;

So personally said:
			
		

> No I wasn't planning on going for 24mb mostly because I read good things about the i7 920. I'm slowly changing my mind and might finally go with the AM3.
> 
> Now let's drop a bomb, should I wait for the CH IV Extreme or is it just but a dream? (read no ETA and too costly for your budget  )
> 
> ...


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> You _have_ to buy tomorrow? Why in such a big hurry?



No, sry for the misunderstanding, like I said, I don't have to buy it tomorrow, so I can wait and talk about it more and research a bit more on AM3 rigs?

Thx,
HoboBob


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3,

5GHz overclock

Other than that I agree with your post +1



HoboBob said:


> they magically come up with xfire that does not suck scalling wise



Do not get confused, crossfire's scaling is fine. Crossfire has been exploited by gamers for years and will continue to be. The issue is with CrossfireX which is* 4* video cards, this is when the scaling becomes dodgy, and even so the CrossfireX could be fine now for all we know since reviews tend to feature beta drivers.





HoboBob said:


> Now let's drop a bomb, should I wait for the CH IV Extreme or is it just but a dream?



It's a dream. Price/performance they suck.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

i have 2 5850 scaling still sucks dent in reality in most games i need the performance boost scaling sucks in games a single 5850 already slaughters crossfire scales well point being if scaling isnt decent till long after im done with the game it dosent help much  just tossing that out there nvidia tends to have better scaling period currently crossfire isnt bad but sli has the edge still


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

^ that isnt the fault of crossfire or drivers, some cards are not supposed to be crossfired period! The 5850 runs relatively hot and consume a lot of power its hardly the best candidate for crossfire to begin with.

You can not fault crossfires scaling when you have lower midrange cards like the 5750/5770 in crossfire beating out a 5870. 

Some cards like crossfire, some do not. In your case a single 5850 can manage any game, at any level of detail @ any resolution. Most games will cap your frame rate at about 100 frames per second? so you'll never benefit from additional frame rates crossfiring a monster like a 5850 anyways.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

uh 5850 im sorry to say usues about 110w average and peaks at 150 thats just 1 6pin and 1 pcie slot power requirment the gtx 460 uses more power then a 5850 and im also sorry to say a 5850 runs damn cool 44c idle in crossfire at 80'f ambients and load while overclock with default fan i hit 70'c the problem is crossfire just isnt as potent as sli currently.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/EAH_5850_TOP_DirectCu/26.html
roughly the 8800gtx 9800gtx gts 250 gtx260 etc all use more power in some cases the 4850 uses more power or equal to the 5850 and thats the blue reference 5850s which i have.  Face is crossfire dosent scale as well as SLI 


















ATi started with a different dual card configuration nvidia was way ahead in the early days and that lead on development still holds today sadly


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## phanbuey (Aug 18, 2010)

Well lets agree on one thing: SLI or Crossfire... I think SLI is the answer... in that case AM3 is out the window?  What happened to the 980a chipset is that no good?



crazyeyesreaper said:


> true phanbuey but amd ati has the same ability to do just that but they dont if crossfire scaled better and didnt bottom out on minimum frame rates as much as it does it would greatly improve ATis standings but the fact is when nvidia mid range will scale better then atis best cards it shows the problem at hand



I totally agree - so what does that mean in terms of (reluctant grumble) AM3 gaming rig?  Why do people say there are no good boards?


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

true phanbuey but amd ati has the same ability to do just that but they dont if crossfire scaled better and didnt bottom out on minimum frame rates as much as it does it would greatly improve ATis standings but the fact is when nvidia mid range will scale better then atis best cards it shows the problem at hand

Asus AM3 980a sli mobo $139 x16 x16 PCIe
ASUS M4N98TD EVO AM3 NVIDIA nForce 980a SLI ATX AM...

and no there are some games that still need the power of 2 gpus 

examples

Metro 2033
Crysis
Oblivion and Fallout 3 if u mod the game and the game engine as much as i do the game becomes even MORE demanding then Crysis

fact is sli tends to scale around 50-90%  crossfire scales around 30-70%  and thats across ALL GPUS not just mid or high seperately and its moot sure 5770 xfire = 5870 but 2 5870s also usually are 2x the 5770s due to how scaling works 5770s dont scale any better then 5870 and lets not forget in games that half ass crossfire support that single 5870 wipes the floor with dual 5770s


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## phanbuey (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> true phanbuey but amd ati has the same ability to do just that but they dont if crossfire scaled better and didnt bottom out on minimum frame rates as much as it does it would greatly improve ATis standings but the fact is when nvidia mid range will scale better then atis best cards it shows the problem at hand
> 
> Asus AM3 980a sli mobo $139 x16 x16 PCIe
> ASUS M4N98TD EVO AM3 NVIDIA nForce 980a SLI ATX AM...



^^ that looks like an amazing board... and its CHEAP too.


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 18, 2010)

I like this one better:
ASUS M4N75TD AM3 NVIDIA nForce 750a SLI ATX AMD Mo...


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

ah yea but for $40 u get a newer better supported chipset and dual x16 instead of dual x8  which isnt a bad price difference since i came from 790gx (dual x8) at $120 vs 790fx at the time that was $180


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Dent, I heard the i5 6xx series OC like crazy, and if you have a good chip 5ghz is achievable on air. Again, stuff I heard but I don't know for sure since I don't own one. But given that some ppl have gotten their E8500 to do 5ghz on air and that Anand got to 4.3ghz on the _stock cooler_, I'd say it isn't impossible, and I was just using it as an illustration.

Bob, I'd wait a little and do some more research on the AM3. The LGA1366 series is king in terms of performance, but it also commands a premium. The good thing about X58 performance wise is support for both crossfire and SLI, and the x16/x16 bandwidth. The bad thing is obviously the higher price.

The LGA1156 i7s offer almost all the performance for less money, though most p55 boards only do x8/x8, but unless you are using GTX 480s in SLI or 5970s in crossfireX, you shouldn't see more than 2-3% drop in performance due to the smaller bandwidth. So from a performance/$$ point of view, P55 is more sensible than X58.

AM3 X6 (only 6 core) is another interesting option IMO, b/c AM3 socket still has life in it, as opposed to both X58 and P55, both of which will be discontinued. Not only that, the 890FX series gives you the same amount of PCI-E lanes as X58, along w/ USB3 and SATA 6gb/s built in. So it definitely offers more value, but you lose support for SLI (officially anyways). 

I did a quick pricing on Newegg.ca, an core i7 860 + Maximus Formula III combo and 2x GTX 460s 1gb is already $1000. Then you gotta add in hard drive, RAM, PSU, case, and all that. I came out w/ $1420 before shipping, that's not including monitor either.


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## phanbuey (Aug 18, 2010)

^^ he's not buying monitor and a Maximus Formula III is expensive as hell for 1156


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

id still prefer 890fx cheapest u can find 1055T and 4 gigs DDR3 do to the fact that AM3 will be the same for bulldozer thing AM2+ now with AM3 the next jump is AM3+ with AM3 backwards support so in theory an amd rig with a current chipset offers the chance at a drop in CPU upgrade down the road much like the 940BE of its day

and there are good nvidia boards phanbuey there just few and far between on the AMD side of things due to intel basically shit canning nvidia chipsets when u lost about 60% chipset market (rought idea from what id expect ) its no longer profitable

'Intel NVIDA chipset were more common intel canning it killed nvidias chipsets and amd as an alternative isnt in the consumers mind enough to warranty true support anymore


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> ah yea but for $40 u get a newer better supported chipset and dual x16 instead of dual x8



dual 8x is plenty and the 750a is just as supported. Unlocks core, x6 support ....


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Okay I missed a bunch of posts while typing my response lol. 

OP, I agree, SLI > crossfire and that should be your choice. AM3 offers no SLI support officially (I still say SLI hack it lol), so I built a P55 rig on Newegg.ca with 2x 1gb GTX 460s.

phanbuey, I picked the Maximus III b/c I got lazy and it was in a bundle w/ the i7 860. It is expensive for a P55 mobo, but if OP wants to run this rig for 6 years and still OC his CPU 24/7, I'd say a solid mobo is a worthy investment. Though a P55 FTW will probably suit him better.

crazyeyesreaper: I love my 1055T setup and it definitely has more value, but if OP doesn't want to do SLI hack, P55 would be his best option since I wouldn't want him to run on a 980i mobo for _*6*_ years. That's like eternity in computer terms lol.


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 18, 2010)

JrRacinFan said:


> I like this one better:
> ASUS M4N75TD AM3 NVIDIA nForce 750a SLI ATX AMD Mo...





JrRacinFan said:


> dual 8x is plenty and the 750a is just as supported. Unlocks core, x6 support ....



Please read the above ebola.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

thats just it ebola look above lol jr beat me to it and what i mean jr is the 980a is more likely to get a bios update for bulldozer then a 750a which in that situations offers even MORE value in a longevity stand point


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> thats just it ebola look above lol jr beat me to it and what i mean jr is the 980a is more likely to get a bios update for bulldozer then a 750a which in that situations offers even MORE value in a longevity stand point



I highly beleive it would get the bios update!!! It's basically the equivalent of an AMD 770 chipset in the AMD nVidia world. Budget chipset.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

mmm we shall see i suppose  lol i prefer to stick to newer chipsets as there more likely to get an update and there more likely to get an update sooner


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper I said the 5850 runs relatively hot and consumes a lot of power.

So it means that it runs cool, but in comparison to other cards it can be perceived as hot. 

As for power consumption you didn’t post the 5850s power consumption in crossfire which is what the topic is really about.


Power consumption and heat aside, the fact remains that you can not fault crossfire's scalability on a whole because it there is good demonstrations of it with the 4770 in CF being on par with the 4870X2 and the 5770 in CF being on par with the 5870.

The 5850 is relatively expensive, very few people buy 5850 outside the enthusiast crowd, why would ATI employee software engineers $40 per hour to configure crossfire drivers to scale well on a card that brings in little revenue, ATI probably know that most people can bearly afford 1 5850 let alone 2 and hence why its crossfire optimisation is probably poor.  Which brings me to my original point - Some cards are not ideal for crossfire to begin with, the 5850 is one of them which is no reflection on crossfire as a whole.


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Jr. and reaper, I see the boards you guys are talking about, but the 980i has a legit chance of being the last chipset Nvidia puts out. If that is the case, all support for those boards will be dead. That is perhaps my biggest reason for not recommending it. 

Remember, the OP is building a PC that will last _*six years*_, that's crazy long. I would not save $100 now to use a platform that is clearly heading the way of the dodo. Look at it this way, avg your savings now over 6 years that's like what, $17/year? I'd spend that to enjoy a superior mobo throughout that duration.

Anyways, here's the rig I threw together on Newegg.ca, I'm sure money can be saved here and there, but it should be just under $1500 after shipping and it's a solid rig for sure.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

Dent1 said:


> crazyeyesreaper I said the 5850 runs relatively hot and consumes a lot of power.
> 
> So it means that it runs cool, but in comparison to other cards it can be perceived as hot.
> 
> ...



fact crossfire on 5670 5770 and 5870 scales the same % wise within margin of error  5850 uses 110 watts on average that on part with a 9800gt and is LESS then the 460 its LESS then gts 250 etc meaning nearly double the performance at same wattage and 70c is at 30% fan speed meaning the fan never spins up at 50% i still cant hear it and temps drop to 60c and thats with them IN CROSSFIRE with the cards a centimeter apart 5850 runs cool and it uses very little power examples 150w tdp max vs 250 of the gtx 470 for same performance in crossfire power DOES NOT SCALE IN LINEAR FASHION meaning about 280w for 5850 crossfire at peak and 470 will peak around 420w and 460s will peak around 330w.  and again crossfire scaling is roughly the same across all gpus due to the fact ati codes for families not invidual gpus so...

5800 SERIES 5700 SERIES there drivers are optimized on a per family of gpu basis  mean its less efficient then Nvidia who tends to pay a great deal of interest on scaling for all gpus individiually


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper, you also have a HAF 932 so you need to keep that in mind 

That giant side fan will keep anything short of 480s in SLI cool lol.

I agree, the evergreen family is amazing, but SLI just has better scaling (performance wise) and more games are optimized for Nvidia. But I don't think that the 5850 is more power efficient makes much difference, it's not like the GTX 460 is a powerhog anyways.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

yea i stripped the side panel fans using 3 120mm coolermaster R4s and im sorry to say no temp difference with or without side panel fans as ive had them off since installing and testing water cooling lol they make nearly no difference for me altho they DRASTICALLLY lowered mobo chipset temps and hdd temps

im just replying to Dent1 for the most part ebola i know gpu usage i use to have a 8800gts 640mb volt modded and overclocked to as high as i could get it at 100% fan speed 24/7 at that lvl it used as much power as an 8800 ultra if memory serves me right hahaha


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Just awesome!

A lot of information to process in a short period of time haha 

Thx a bunch for the rig ebola, will look into further and try to gather info. Atm my brain is like a sponge and I knda look like crazyeyes avatar 

So AM3 sli IS possible, hmm this is getting interesting. What was the downside of both mobos, it kinda went fast and it was a bit out of my knowledge limit.

Thx, 

HoboBob


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Yea, HAF 932 is a beast in terms of cooling, the OP won't have that luxury though (and that'll depend on his sense of style as well, can't help it if he finds the HAF series fugly )

Well, this'll be my last post for several hours, hopefully OP will find our discussion useful 

You gentlemen have fun, I have a shiny new pair of MSI GTX 465 Twin Frozr Golden Edition to attend to


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 18, 2010)

@ebola

I understand your point, problem is cpu longevity as I previously stated. Intel has already claimed to not release(IIRC) anymore cpu's for 1156/1366.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

and lol ebola yea the haf is ugly as sin but function over form man function over form  id use a cardboard box to house my stuff if i had balls made of Titanium do to the wtf holy crap factor of it.

cases are a get what u like senario good cooling comes with the desire to make the cooling better any case can have good cooling ur willing to do it yourself i was just to lazy


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper,

But the nuts are bolts of the argument is that the entire idea of crossfire is to add another card to improve performance or price/performance.

When you've got an expensive card like the 5850 that can run through any game adding another card for CF will not do it justice until the games get more demanding. There is only so much the ATI programmers can do if games developers are not making games intensive enough to appreciate 5850 in CF. If your 5850 CF isnt stressed enough and gets bored rendering the mundane scenes you can not blame scalability only the game or its developers.



ebolamonkey3 said:


> Dent, I heard the i5 6xx series OC like crazy, and if you have a good chip 5ghz is achievable on air. Again, stuff I heard but I don't know for sure since I don't own one.



4.3GHz is possible on air, i've seen upto 4.6Ghz but this is with a lot of voltage and on high end air coolers and I'm not sure its really 100% stable, it is not the norm overclock that the average person can get. 

5GHz overclock would require high end equipment, a lot of skill. I doubt you'll see it stable without some sort of water cooling or liquid nitrogen cooling.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

I checked the mobo  ASUS M4N98TD EVO AM3 NVIDIA nForce 980a SLI ATX AMD Motherboard  Customer Reviews Of ASUS M4N98TD EVO AM3 NVIDIA nF...

And it has mixed reviews esp. regarding the onboard sound card. Constant buzz and issue with games. Is it just me or the RMA/doa is something that occurs on a regular basis for this card?

Thx,
HoboBob


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

theres always bad eggs and more ppl that hate or have issues speak up then those that had a good item point tho 66% give it 5 eggs as in flawless 18% give it 4 eggs which is above average that means 66+18 84% agree its a good board ive used boards with 1 egg before off newegg no issue what so ever its luck of the draw really for the most part tho ive only had 2 Dead parts new and both were GPUs so yea

and i do blame ati / amd fact  gtx 480 scales better in sli then any ati card combo every nivida gpu combo scales better on average then any ati combo its a FACT and again 5770s 5750s gain the SAME % improvement as the 5850 and 5870 in dual card modes meaning the 5770 is not scaling better then any other crossfire card the % is still roughly the same 30-70% depending on game and when i say 30% it tends to be 25-35% scaling across all ati gpus where 2 nvidia cards no matter the cards would get 45-55% in the same situation SLI is just better currently and im done arguing that point


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> and i do blame ati / amd fact  gtx 480 scales better in sli then any ati card combo every nivida gpu combo scales better on average then any ati combo its a FACT and again 5770s 5750s gain the SAME % improvement as the 5850 and 5870 in dual card modes meaning the 5770 is not scaling better then any other crossfire card the % is still roughly the same 30-70% depending on game and when i say 30% it tends to be 25-35% scaling across all ati gpus where 2 nvidia cards no matter the cards would get 45-55% in the same situation SLI is just better currently and im done arguing that point



^

But you have to take price into the "price to performance" ratio for scaling.

I understand that the 5750/5770 might be the same percentage wise for scaling as the 5850/5870 but the percentage of improvement per dollar shows the 5750/5770 are top dog.

I'm not disputing whether the SLI or Crossfire scales better, its a subjective matter which I would rather not get into. 

Now you may feel robbed because your 5850 in CF didnt scale well and maybe you should feel a bit annoyed especially when Nvidia's high end cards may scale better. But its always been the case that whether your CF or SLI on midrange cards you get better performance output per dollar and with most midrange cards (whether ATI or Nvidia) they are often smaller, output less heat, consume less power in addition to being cheaper within its respected series, and hence midrange cards seem the best SLI/CF candidates because high end cards are generally the opposite and can often be large, noisy, relatively hot, use more power and is expensive these negative traits are hardly make SLI/CF as appealing.

Think of this analogy, the 5850 is so powerful that Crysis only 40% of its GPU. You decide to buy another 5850 for crossfire. Crysis will still use 40% of the GPU whether the activity is split between 1 or 2 GPUs its still 40%. This is because the game didnt become more demanding. Is it ATIs fault that Crysis wasnt demanding enough?


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> it tends to be 25-35% scaling across all ati gpus



That is not my experience at all. I would say I get about 70% scaling on average with my two 5850's. SLi does even better than that.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

im saying worst case senario erocker crossfire tends to be 30-70% and sli tends to hover in the 50-90% range and when i said all ati i gpus i was refering to bad scalling in a game on 5770s in crossfire is going to also be noticed in scaling on 5870s etc


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> im saying worst case senario erocker crossfire tends to be 30-70% and sli tends to hover in the 50-90% range and when i said all ati i gpus i was refering to bad scalling in a game on 5770s in crossfire is going to also be noticed in scaling on 5870s etc



I would say my setup is around 50-90% which gives an average of around 70%.

Are you using one CF bridge or two? Use two, though I doubt that was/is your problem.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

So I looked around, and that is what I came up with.






(hoping I did not goofed)

Btw, what do you all think if the ram. I read that 1600 with low cl was the way to go for AM3. I might be wrong.

It sucks a bit that the mobo is outdated and my not be supported in a near future...

Thx again, you guys greatly helping and we will be able to narrow the selection a bit. I'm rarely jump to conclusion and do not buy because the deal is ending in 20 minutes. So I can wait, it's not like my games on steam are gonna vanish anyway... 

Hobobob

..Yeah ok the prices are cutoff, and keep in mind the parts are from newegg.ca, so it doesn't include taxes nor s/h


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

Get some ram made for the AMD platform.  G.Skill Flare

Though.. It being a 980a chipset hmmm.. I'll have to look up the memory QVL list for it.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

But can you run those flares without the ram fan, just wondering if it will get in the way of the frio cpu cooler.

Thx,
HoboBob


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> But can you run those flares without the ram fan, just wondering if it will get in the way of the frio cpu cooler.
> 
> Thx,
> HoboBob



Yes you can, it's not needed at all. By the way, there is no Mushkin RAM on the QVL list for that board at all. If you're unsure with teh G.Skills, go to the Asus support download site and view the memory QVL list.


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

In all honesty, G.Skills make great ram, iam using it myself.

But I would ignore the flare range, they are overpriced, $415 on the newegg.ca for 8 GB G.Skills flares :O

Get the Gskill Ripjaws, they are $196 for 2x (2GBx2) kits 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Produc...77&cm_re=4gb_ddr3_1600-_-20-231-277-_-Product



HoboBob said:


> @erocker Thx for the tip. Will try to look into it more.
> 
> @Dent1 I can't find the G-Skill on the QVL. Maybe I'm just getting tired. F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL the only thing I get is the same model (weird) but for 4x1gb.. errr what?



That isnt to say it will not work. We are talking high end memory here on a high end motherboard you can be almost certain it will work. 

TBH iam not feeling the old 980a chipset anyways, it seems like a big sacrifice going with a old chipset just for SLI. I would rather a newer chipset knowing that bios updates will be more frequent.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

@erocker Thx for the tip. Will try to look into it more.

@Dent1 I can't find the G-Skill on the QVL. Maybe I'm just getting tired. F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL the only thing I get is the same model (weird) but for 4x1gb.. errr what? 

Thx,

HoboBob


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

not to mention any kind of air cooler of decent make will not clear the flare heatsinks


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Sadness engulf me 

This shiat is tougher than I thought at 1st tbh 

I'll be in touch with you guys, but for now I have to get some sleep since I'm kinda getting nowhere atm... running braindead 

Thx all, see you tomorrow with more knowledge for my brain.

HoboBob

Now if I could find a good set of ram that would run under my Frio/ any good cpu cooler if I want to OC the 1055
!peace I'm out for the day.

Thx again reaper,

HoboBob


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

JrRacinFan said:


> @ebola
> 
> I understand your point, problem is cpu longevity as I previously stated. Intel has already claimed to not release(IIRC) anymore cpu's for 1156/1366.



That's why I recommended SLI hack on a 890FX 



crazyeyesreaper said:


> and lol ebola yea the haf is ugly as sin but function over form man function over form  id use a cardboard box to house my stuff if i had balls made of Titanium do to the wtf holy crap factor of it.
> 
> cases are a get what u like senario good cooling comes with the desire to make the cooling better any case can have good cooling ur willing to do it yourself i was just to lazy



Haha true that, I ran a HAF 922 myself for a while, but it got too loud for me since it's right next to my bed.

Bob, if you read through all that stuff I posted (patience, lol), you'll understand why I recommend against the 980i or any Nvidia chipsets for AMD. In short, they are not as good as AMD's own implementations and may have a short life ahead of them.

Problem w/ going Intel as Jr. mentioned, is that P55 and X58 are going to be discontinued shortly. Even though they are very powerful right now, we don't know how long support will continue for these two platforms once LGA1155 and LGA2011 rolls out.

So that's why I recommend the SLI hack personally, because my first recommendation is AM3, except it lacks SLI. But if you really don't want to do that, I would suggest going with P55.


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

If I'm 100% frank.


I think the OP should get the 890G/890GX, 785G etc with crossfire/crossfireX

A single 5850 is fine and a second one can be added later. Its crazy that one guys bad experience with scaling has steered you away from the most logical build.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

theres nothing wrong with a single 5850 its a better option then 2 5770s but in general a better single gpu is the way to go over dual unless sticing with nvida and current GTX 470s can be found for $279 on the newegg which is a better deal then any 5850 currently just have to look hard to find them


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

Dent1 said:


> If I'm 100% frank.
> 
> 
> I think the OP should get the 890G/890GX, 785G etc with crossfire/crossfireX
> ...



Normally that's be logical, but right now the 5850 is overpriced and in the long term, OP wants to have multiple GPUs and SLI simply has better scaling and drivers.


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## JrRacinFan (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> That's why I recommended SLI hack on a 890FX



It's not the chipset that I'm beleiving lacks the support. It would be the bios.


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## Dent1 (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> Normally that's be logical, but right now the 5850 is overpriced and in the long term, OP wants to have multiple GPUs and SLI simply has better scaling and drivers.



I have no problem with SLI, my issue is buying a SLI motherboard on a AMD platform because you'll be settling for a older chipset.

I feel that if the OP truely wants SLI perhaps Intel's i5 or i7 is best as you'll get a newer chipset.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Thx a lot guys for the replies, again great arguments from both sides.

Feeling sick today, so I might not hang around for the night (explains the lack of reply from myself too :shadedshu )

Regarding the SLI hack, well... I don not believe in my skills enough, 1. I never had a SLI rig before, 2. it looks possible on (virtual) paper, but will I really be able to do it? I might would have tried it if I was still in school 10 years ago and it wasn't my parts, but today, I'm already lost and it would be on parts that I just bought 

Yes SLI looks really good, but such a pain when it comes to pair it with AM3, so I might go with a 5850. Why not go with a 5870, well they are pricey... yes the 5850 is overpriced, but it runs cool and is not power hungry.

For now I'll keep looking around and posting here (for sure, you guys seem to enjoy helping ppl and I enjoying reading and learning) and I'll try to spot some deals (if possible from newegg.ca or something)

For you know, it's fun to play with a new rig, but it's way better (imo) to shop for parts and learn how to build your rig to it's (almost let's face it I'm a noob) full potential. 

Thx, again (might come up with more post in the evening)

HoboBob


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

5850s will overclock and run neck and neck with a 5870 at stock a 5850 at same clocks as a 5870 is only 1-5% difference and most 5850 can hit 900 core stock voltage that means even non reference cards will overclock and equal a stock 5870


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Thx again reaper, what would you consider a good 5850 with great OC potential. I know many ppl would say asus cuTOP, but is the TOP necessary?

If not asus, what is a rock solid one?

Thx,

HoboBob


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

You want a reference card.

Unfortunately Newegg doesn't really sell them anymore. This is the next best as it supports voltage control with Afterburner: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127500&cm_re=Hd_5850-_-14-127-500-_-Product


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Thx, I've read mixed reviews regarding the gpu you linked, maybe due to the fact that ppl were having trouble with afterburner and the voltage tweaking of it.

Can gimme so example of ref cards, I'll look at two/three suppliers that at nearby.

Thx,

HoboBob


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

A reference card has the black and red (batmobile) cooler on it. I wouldn't be worried about the reviews. The bad reviews seem to come from people who don't know what they are doing. I have a friend with that Twin Frozr and it's a great card, voltage adjustment works fine.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 18, 2010)

i agree for every solid good review on an items theres about 20 ppl that bitch and i fall victum to the user error on occasion as well  so there yea go human nature were more likely to complain when something dosent work then praise it if it does


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

I got two here, the xfx is so pricey  :

http://www.sohodiffusion.com/prod/13854/SAPPHIRE-RADEON-HD-5850-GDDR5-PCI-E-2XDVI-HDMI-DIS.html

http://www.sohodiffusion.com/prod/13853/XFX-RADEON-HD-5850-BLACK-EDITION-765MHZ-1GB-GDDR5.html

Thx,

HoboBob


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

The cheaper Sapphire would be a good card. No need to spend the extra $80 bucks to have them overclock it for you.


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

HoboBob said:


> Thx a lot guys for the replies, again great arguments from both sides.
> 
> Feeling sick today, so I might not hang around for the night (explains the lack of reply from myself too :shadedshu )
> 
> ...



Bob, if you don't feel comfortable with doing the SLI hack on an AM3 board, then I feel going i7 on P55 would be your best bet. Because that will be your only real option for SLI along with X58, but it will offer you most of the performance for hundred/s less.

I took a look at your AM3 build. First of all, you don't need a 850w PSU. That's way more than what you'll need unless you plan on going GTX 470 SLI and overclocking. The 750w XFX I selected will still be more than enough and is much cheaper, so you can save some money here.

You can save some money from going with a different set of RAM as well. G.Skill ripjaws come to mind and you can probably find a set of Corsair XSM3 for around the price as well. Those Mushkin and Flares are overkill.

Did you already buy the 5850s? While great cards, they are very overpriced right now. A pair of OC'd GTX 460s will match stock 5870s in crossfire right now. So even if you overclocked the 5850s, I suspect you'll only get the same amount of performance as a pair of GTX 460s. So spending a lot more for the same performance doesn't really make sense, especially given your budget.



erocker said:


> You want a reference card.
> 
> Unfortunately Newegg doesn't really sell them anymore. This is the next best as it supports voltage control with Afterburner: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127500&cm_re=Hd_5850-_-14-127-500-_-Product



^^ This. If you go 5850, get a reference model for volt tweak ability.


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> Bob, if you don't feel comfortable with doing the SLI hack on an AM3 board, then I feel going i7 on P55 would be your best bet. Because that will be your only real option for SLI along with X58, but it will offer you most of the performance for hundred/s less.
> 
> I took a look at your AM3 build. First of all, you don't need a 850w PSU. That's way more than what you'll need unless you plan on going GTX 470 SLI and overclocking. The 750w XFX I selected will still be more than enough and is much cheaper, so you can save some money here.
> 
> ...



I don't think he needs SLi 460's. A single 5850 will suffice. I'm giving him RAM advice off of what I know works the best with AMD, which I have some good experience with. Most Ripjaws don't work well with AMD. I just saw some Geil 1333mhz ram for about $119 that does 6 6-6-20 which would be perfect. There is nothing wrong with going overboard on a PSU. It will run more efficient. The SLi hack is nice but it isn't perfect, nor is it supported by the manufacturer's. For a new build that's not something I would want to risk. Saving hundreds less by going to Intel is just plain incorrect.


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

erocker said:


> I don't think he needs SLi 460's. A single 5850 will suffice. I'm giving him RAM advice off of what I know works the best with AMD, which I have some good experience with. Most Ripjaws don't work well with AMD. I just saw some Geil 1333mhz ram for about $119 that does 6 6-6-20 which would be perfect. There is nothing wrong with going overboard on a PSU. It will run more efficient. The SLi hack is nice but it isn't perfect, nor is it supported by the manufacturer's. For a new build that's not something I would want to risk. Saving hundreds less by going to Intel is just plain incorrect.



Erocker, normally I'd agree with you, but in this case OP wants to keep his rig for a looong time. So eventually he would be getting a second video card and in light of that, I think he should go w/ SLI. A single GTX 460 should be fast enough for most things now and a second one 6 month or even a year from now would complete his build.

And OP also has a budget of $1500 CAD, so given the inflated pricing of 5850s, GTX 460 just makes more sense IMO.

Like I said before, if OP doesn't want to do the SLI hack, I recommend P55 instead of 980i or X58 like some other posters have recommended. And I meant saving hundred/s by going P55 instead of X58, not from going to Intel from AMD. Perhaps my last post was unclear.

I think the XFX 750w would already be overboard for this build, and the 850HX is $35 more (not including the combo discount for the XFX psu). Both are silver so efficiency should be the same or small enough to be negligible.

Those Geil ram would be perfect though, 1333mhz and 6 timing is just awesome


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## erocker (Aug 18, 2010)

Got you.  I still don't agree with the GTX 460. An overclocked reference 5850 will still walk all over it. Adding a 2nd card in time and it will be even better. Another thing to consider is ATi will be releasing the 5 series replacements soon and the 5 series will get much cheaper. I don't see Nvidia having anything to replace their current lineup anytime soon and the GTX 460 will remain around the same price. In the long run he can most likely have two 5850's for the same price (if not less) than the SLi option. With that said, I don't think it's ever a good idea to buy for the future. Buy what is good and fast now because in the future everthing is eventually considered old junk anyways.


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> Did you already buy the 5850s? While great cards, they are very overpriced right now. A pair of OC'd GTX 460s will match stock 5870s in crossfire right now. So even if you overclocked the 5850s, I suspect you'll only get the same amount of performance as a pair of GTX 460s. So spending a lot more for the same performance doesn't really make sense, especially given your budget.



No, I did not buy any parts yet, I'm patient. Maybe it's safest to wait for the price drop as I can still play my games now, at super low settings, still... one 5850 now, and another one later sounds good to me.

We'll see.

Thx,

HoboBob


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## ebolamonkey3 (Aug 18, 2010)

I think 5850s vs 460s will be similar in price/performance for OP, w/ the edge toward Nvidia. One reference 5850 will cost him $330 now and say $200 later for $530. One 460 will cost him $230 now and say $180 later (to compete w/ the $200 5850 ). So it's $530 for 2x 5850 and $410 for 2x GTX 460s, and since OC'd 460s slightly edge out *5870* crossfire right now, I think the performance between these two sets of cards will be pretty close.

Though if he does go ATI, he can also go AMD instead of Intel.

Hmmm.. back to square one??


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## HoboBob (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed hahaha

No sweat, I like to learn and like I said, I enjoy reading about it and building something I'd like for a couple of years (let's face it it won't last 6 years I was just too lazy to build a new rig and I was tight on money) 

Thx,

HoboBob


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## HoboBob (Aug 19, 2010)

ebolamonkey3 said:


> Hmmm.. back to square one??



Good day to you guys,

And yes, just to tempt me, the bloody Gigabyte gtx 460 1gb are on sale at my retailer. 

What are specifically the downside to go with the http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131636 or the http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130236  ??

Thx again, I'm at work and I'll search later if you haven't answered before then 

Thx,

HoboBob


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## erocker (Aug 19, 2010)

I don't think there is any downside, though I'd take the Asus over the MSI for sure as they have much better bios support. Both are good boards, but the Asus is suprisingly less expensive and that is reason enough to go with that.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 19, 2010)

the MSI board can do TRI sli or sli + physx since it had 3x PCIe x16 slots at x16 x8 x8 and the Asus is just 2 PCIe x16 @ x16 x16


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## HoboBob (Aug 19, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> the MSI board can do TRI sli or sli + physx since it had 3x PCIe x16 slots at x16 x8 x8 and the Asus is just 2 PCIe x16 @ x16 x16



True, on the long run if I decide to change the gpu for something better, but is it really an option? I mean the 460 will only go 2 way anyway.

Ok, so the verdict is, more support from asus. ok, got it.

Thx a lot,

HoboBob


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## HoboBob (Aug 19, 2010)

Update my specs for all to see how pathetic my rig is 

Take care guys,

HoboBob


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 19, 2010)

2 way is fine but that 3rd slot could be for example a gt 240 for just dedicated physx etc but its w.e floats you boat  sli 460 + 240 for physx or sli 460s on the cheaper board etc etc or better yet buy a cheap used 8800gts 320mb 8800gs 9600gso gt 240 9600gt w.e for physx whatever u can find dirt cheap to go dedicated with your sli setup on the msi board altho i to prefer asus over msi if i was going to just go balls out id take the msi board


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## HoboBob (Aug 19, 2010)

Cool thx for the tip,

Will brb later, going to class for some kung fu action (another reason why I can't afford an awesome gaming rig) 

Thx,

HoboBob


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## surfingerman (Aug 20, 2010)

geez this was a painful thread to read through, at first i thought it was a congressional debate,

 just my two cents i think crazyeyes is right, single GPU really is best, i would go 5850 or 5870.. i wouldn't bother crossfire, when 6000 comes out (November- December) id sell your card on ebay get 70-90 of the value back..  and then buy the next best single gpu you can afford,

the problem with crossfire as i see it is when you do decide to upgrade (you wait alot longer), you now have to sell two used cards that have lost alot of value, as opposed to spending less on a better single card, and being able to upgrade more often and loosing less money on the upgrade, i think with GPUs it always pays to have the latest one if possible, processors, HDs, motherboards, RAM, you can keep those parts for alot longer without upgrade

 i actually sold my reference 5770 for more than i bought it on ebay, and the 5870 (6) i have now is actually worth 150 more than when i bought it ii guess they made a limited supply?), i should have bought a whole bunch and made some money off them, i actually make money off upgrading, or maybe im just lucky?, also save the box and other extras, crossfire bridge ect, that will get you more money when you resell, another benefit of going single gpu save some money on your motherboard and psu, more money for GPU = win


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## HoboBob (Aug 20, 2010)

Good day to you all,

Thx for the tip surfingerman, I'll see what I'll do. I might have to put the rig on hold, cuz something bad occurred, or I might go for something under 1000$.  life >  < me

I'll figure something out! 

Thx,

HoboBob


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## HoboBob (Aug 21, 2010)

Hey guys, me again 

PSU:

I think more and more that I'll go with the Corsair 750TX http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006 since it is cheap and free shipping is awesome.

The question: Will it be enough in a Element G with a lot of fans running + OC'ed 1055T + Frio cooler + SLI of GTX 460 OC'ed ?

Thx again, I've read the 750w is enough for a 460 SLI setup, but is it still valid with all the stuff I mentioned?

Thx again,

HoboBob


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## HoboBob (Aug 26, 2010)

Me again... been a while since the thread last saw some activity.

Finally ordered my rig! I want to say a big thx to all of you especially crazyeyesreaper, ebolamonkey3 and erocker 

Here's what I got (well... what I'm waiting for ) :






Feel free to debate my choice and selection of parts. It's by debating earlier that I learned a bit more from you guys.

For the rig, I'll wait and get another gpu later and soon a new monitor (waiting for some deals).

Thx again,

HoboBob


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 26, 2010)

look for different ram namely 1600 cl 8 at the least phenom cpus benefit from tight timings not speed since your gonna oc via the bus the 1600mhz ram will do you nicely but theres better choices out there ill let other ppl say there piece first tho im not good with ram i tend to buy 1333mhz cl 7 sets for simple set it and forget it and go from there but in your case 1600mhz gives you head room ... at this point Cadaveca and Erocker are your best bets for ram knowledge on an AMD system


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## Dent1 (Aug 27, 2010)

^ The ram is fine, its high end enthusiast memory so he should be able to tighten the timings and increase the bus without issue.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Aug 27, 2010)

well i have mushkin 1333 cl 7 that is currently running 677 20 1 t but not fully tested yet and last i checked here state side at newegg its cheaper then the corsair but  for high clocks the 1333 might not cut it


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## Dent1 (Aug 27, 2010)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> well i have mushkin 1333 cl 7 that is currently running 677 20 1 t but not fully tested yet and last i checked here state side at newegg its cheaper then the corsair but  for high clocks the 1333 might not cut it



Doesn't your Mushkins overclock to 1600MHz?

My G.Skills Ripsaws default clocks are 1600MHz @ 7-8-7-24-2T but I can overclock it to 7-9-9-20-1T @ 1800MHz!


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