# Super Budget Build - Pro's, come help!



## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

Alright so I have some "friends" who said they were "pc builders"... once was supposed to have m a list of parts before Cyber Monday (in hopes to get them on sale), well he's not coming through so I turn to you folks and I hope you can help. I'm not looking for the biggest and the best... below are my needs and wants... all while staying around $4-500 - the cheaper the better, I'm trying to buy a house!



Needs

- Every part except RAM, I have 16gigs of DDR3 - only catch is I need 4 RAM slots...

- Run GTA:IV and GTA:V along with other FPS Games, none needing to be ran at 110%

- Windows 7 CD-Key... I have a system builder disk, not sure if I can make it work cause I have it on my MacBook (DON'T CRINGE PLEASE!)



Wants

- Tiny in size, a small compact - shuttle pc size would be awesome!

- high quality parts, low price! - Good luck right?

- Monitor would be nice...nothing crazy big.





Thanks in advance, any questions please feel free to ask!


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## [Ion] (Nov 25, 2012)

Do you absolutely _need_ all 16GB of RAM?  If not, you could build an ITX setup that would be tiny--but the catch is, ITX boards only have two RAM slots.  Otherwise, you'd have to go uATX--which is still small, just not tiny.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

[Ion] said:


> Do you absolutely _need_ all 16GB of RAM?  If not, you could build an ITX setup that would be tiny--but the catch is, ITX boards only have two RAM slots.  Otherwise, you'd have to go uATX--which is still small, just not tiny.



Only reason I would NEED 4 slots is to run all 16gigs that I have, I don't know how much that will impact my gaming and such? 

I've seen some of these mini iTX cases... I'd love to have something that small.


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## [Ion] (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> Only reason I would NEED 4 slots is to run all 16gigs that I have, I don't know how much that will impact my gaming and such?
> 
> I've seen some of these mini iTX cases... I'd love to have something that small.



I think you'd be fine with 8GB.  I have 8GB in my systems and I've never run out--usually during games with a bunch of stuff running in the background, usage is ~3-5GB.
Here's what I've thrown together:






You'll still need an LCD, but that's an area where I'm not too qualified.  A SSD would be nice, but unfortunately wouldn't fit in the budget


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## Norton (Nov 25, 2012)

If you are willing to go mATX I would suggest building around this AMD APU combo (A8-5600K w/Asrock A75 mobo- $155):

Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, L...


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

[Ion] said:


> I think you'd be fine with 8GB.  I have 8GB in my systems and I've never run out--usually during games with a bunch of stuff running in the background, usage is ~3-5GB.
> Here's what I've thrown together:
> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/rig.png
> 
> You'll still need an LCD, but that's an area where I'm not too qualified.  A SSD would be nice, but unfortunately wouldn't fit in the budget



I'm a penny pincher, is that case required? Did you select if for any particular reason, I mean - if it doesn't come with a PSU then why not go with something like this APEX Mini ITX?



Norton said:


> If you are willing to go mATX I would suggest building around this AMD APU combo (A8-5600K w/Asrock Extreme4 mobo- $155):
> 
> Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, L...



I'm more comfortable with a AMD platform, my old midtower had AMD and that's what I like... I'm not opposed to any options, but if we can go AMD that's great.


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## [Ion] (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> I'm a penny pincher, is that case required? Did you select if for any particular reason, I mean - if it doesn't come with a PSU then why not go with something like this APEX Mini ITX?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more comfortable with a AMD platform, my old midtower had AMD and that's what I like... I'm not opposed to any options, but if we can go AMD that's great.



That Apex case only has a single slot for a GPU and a PSU that I would be very worried about using.  There are other alternatives--but the Elite 120 I posted was what jumped to mind.

Norton's APU suggestion is solid.  You'd have to go with a mATX case, unfortunately, but if you get a small one (such as the Fractal Design Core 1000) it wouldn't be _much_ bigger.


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> I'm a penny pincher, is that case required? Did you select if for any particular reason, I mean - if it doesn't come with a PSU then why not go with something like this APEX Mini ITX?



That case is garbage. The powersupply inside of that case also garbage. I had one it got tossed in the bin.



tecster said:


> I'm more comfortable with a AMD platform, my old midtower had AMD and that's what I like... I'm not opposed to any options, but if we can go AMD that's great.



He linked you to an AMD setup. The APU linked is a piledriver CPU+VLIW5 based GPU. Let me log into the lappy top i'll update with a good build for everyone.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

[Ion] said:


> That Apex case only has a single slot for a GPU and a PSU that I would be very worried about using.  There are other alternatives--but the Elite 120 I posted was what jumped to mind.
> 
> Norton's APU suggestion is solid.  You'd have to go with a mATX case, unfortunately, but if you get a small one (such as the Fractal Design Core 1000) it wouldn't be _much_ bigger.



What's the difference between an Micro-ITX case and a mATX case? 



cdawall said:


> That case is garbage. The powersupply inside of that case also garbage. I had one it got tossed in the bin.
> 
> 
> 
> He linked you to an AMD setup. The APU linked is a piledriver CPU+VLIW5 based GPU. Let me log into the lappy top i'll update with a good build for everyone.



I was more or less thinking using the case, dumping the PSU but if it only has one GPU slot that sucks. I know he linked me a AMD that's why I had made that statement. I look forward to your post.


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## Norton (Nov 25, 2012)

About $390 w/A8-5600k APU, small mATX case, psu, and Windows 7:






*note- the board I linked to above and in here has 4 memory slots sorry this board only has 2 slots... 4 slot mATX boards are available for a few more $$$


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

Norton said:


> About $390 w/A8-5600k APU, small mATX case, psu, and Windows 7:
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/combo1125.jpg
> 
> *note- the board I linked to above and in here has 4 memory slots sorry this board only has 2 slots... 4 slot mATX boards are available for a few more $$$



Would I have a decent amount of video FPS in GTA:IV & GTA:V? I also would be interested in getting Assassins Creed, and a few other first person shooters.

I also noticed Norton... No video card?


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

Fractal Design Core 1000
PC Power and Cooling Silencer MK III 500W
A10-5800K+GIGABYTE GA-F2A75M-D3H
SAMSUNG DVD Burner
Seagate Barracuda ST2000DM001 2TB HDD
SAPPHIRE  Radeon HD 6670 1GB
XIGMATEK Gaia SD1283

There you go motherboard supports 4 dimm slots, included the video card for hybrid crossfire and a good cooler for overclocking. $459.93 before MIR's, but the parts listed have another $35 worth of MIR available. If you played with a budget some you could stuff an SSD in there for the OS/Games drive.


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## [Ion] (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> Would I have a decent amount of video FPS in GTA:IV & GTA:V? I also would be interested in getting Assassins Creed, and a few other first person shooters.
> 
> I also noticed Norton... No video card?



Norton configured a system with an AMD APU, which consists of a CPU and a GPU fused together. It's actually very powerful compared to most other integrated graphics setups


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

[Ion] said:


> Norton configured a system with an AMD APU, which consists of a CPU and a GPU fused together. It's actually very powerful compared to most other integrated graphics setups



Sorry about that, I'm not used to being able to have an integrated graphics system that is powerful enough to support gaming... That must have changed recently? I was brought up on the computer era where onboard is bad bad bad news. Is this upgradable in the future, to put a standalone video card in there?


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## [Ion] (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> Sorry about that, I'm not used to being able to have an integrated graphics system that is powerful enough to support gaming... That must have changed recently? I was brought up on the computer era where onboard is bad bad bad news. Is this upgradable in the future, to put a standalone video card in there?



Indeed.  cdawall's setup is using a combination of the onboard GPU and a discrete video card in "hybrid crossfire" for better performance>

It's also possible to put a high-end dGPU not in Crossfire in later on.


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> Sorry about that, I'm not used to being able to have an integrated graphics system that is powerful enough to support gaming... That must have changed recently? I was brought up on the computer era where onboard is bad bad bad news. Is this upgradable in the future, to put a standalone video card in there?



Its roughly as fast as a 6670 and supports crossfire with a 6670 which is why I included those in my build.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

[Ion] said:


> Indeed.  cdawall's setup is using a combination of the onboard GPU and a discrete video card in "hybrid crossfire" for better performance>
> 
> It's also possible to put a high-end dGPU not in Crossfire in later on.





cdawall said:


> Its roughly as fast as a 6670 and supports crossfire with a 6670 which is why I included those in my build.



So I should be okay to get decent graphics with the integrated setup?


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

Decent I would buy the $50 6670 while I was ordering the whole thing tho.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

cdawall said:


> Fractal Design Core 1000
> PC Power and Cooling Silencer MK III 500W
> A10-5800K+GIGABYTE GA-F2A75M-D3H
> SAMSUNG DVD Burner
> ...



I could pinch a few pennies by going to a 500g or so hd, i wont be putting my on it besides games.


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> I could pinch a few pennies by going to a 500g or so hd, i wont be putting my on it besides games.



Its one of the cheapestdrives on the egg right now $70 for 2tb is unbeatable. If you don't mind a smaller drive with the harddrive and get a 256GB ssd.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

cdawall said:


> Its one of the cheapestdrives on the egg right now $70 for 2tb is unbeatable.



I actually said that before looking...good find.


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## m&m's (Nov 25, 2012)

cdawall said:


> Fractal Design Core 1000
> PC Power and Cooling Silencer MK III 500W
> A10-5800K+GIGABYTE GA-F2A75M-D3H
> SAMSUNG DVD Burner
> ...



Change the video card for this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102950

The one I suggest you use GDDR5 instead of DDR3 witch is a *most* with dual graphics.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

How's this compared to the Sapphire? EVGA 01G-P3-N988-TR GeForce 9800 GT HDMI 1GB 256-b...


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> How's this compared to the Sapphire? EVGA 01G-P3-N988-TR GeForce 9800 GT HDMI 1GB 256-b...



Wrong brand for the dual graphics to work it has to be a 6670/6650.


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## xBruce88x (Nov 25, 2012)

Maybe its best to wait until its actually cyber monday... since that's when the price deals will actually be in effect.

the apu build seems solid though... forget the 9800gt. I have an 8800gt and while its a nice card for its time (btw the 9800gt is pretty much the same) it is showing its age. with the apu build you'd have a little more gpu power at less wattage. that 6670 would crossfire with the apu's gpu so you'd still get pretty decent gaming performance and DX11


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

m&m's said:


> Change the video card for this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102950
> 
> The one I suggest you use GDDR5 instead of DDR3 witch is a *most* with dual graphics.



It's crossfired with the onboard which uses actual DDR3 no point. Performance gain will be minimal at best.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

cdawall said:


> Fractal Design Core 1000
> PC Power and Cooling Silencer MK III 500W
> A10-5800K+GIGABYTE GA-F2A75M-D3H
> SAMSUNG DVD Burner
> ...




Looks like this is about the best deal I'd get huh? I guess I should just wait till tomorrow and go from there and see what I can get on a supersale? Is anyone gonna be available to considerably help me? I feel like I'd be lost!


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## m&m's (Nov 25, 2012)

cdawall said:


> It's crossfired with the onboard which uses actual DDR3 no point. Performance gain will be minimal at best.



Noobism more?

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/878-10/gpu-f1-2011-civilization-v-battlefield-3.html
35fps vs 59fps
38.8fps vs 45.8fps
31.4fps vs 46.2fps

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/878-11/gpu-batman-arkham-city-crysis-2-diablo-3.html
31fps vs 60fps
15.2fps vs 26.7fps
63fps vs 84.5fps

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/878-12/moyenne-gpu-consommation-overclocking.html
Average of 114.3 vs 174.4

Minimal gain? Yeah sure...

Go with a GDDR5 HD 6670.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

m&m's said:


> Noobism more?
> 
> http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/38/IMG0038922.png
> 35fps vs 59fps
> ...



Your images are not loading.


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## m&m's (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> Your images are not loading.



I just corrected the shot.


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## tecster (Nov 25, 2012)

m&m's said:


> I just corrected the shot.



Thanks, okay so maybe upgrading to that video card would be a good idea - the issue is the price...brings it right up or over budget... where can I crunch pennies?


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## [Ion] (Nov 25, 2012)

tecster said:


> Thanks, okay so maybe upgrading to that video card would be a good idea - the issue is the price...brings it right up or over budget... where can I crunch pennies?



It's not a ton--but you can ax the DVD drive.  You can install Windows from a flash drive, and a DVD drive is always easy to add later on.


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## cdawall (Nov 25, 2012)

m&m's said:


> Noobism more?



Read your own graphs as well?


m&m's said:


> http://www.hardware.fr/articles/878-10/gpu-f1-2011-civilization-v-battlefield-3.html
> 35fps vs 59fps









It also shows the 6670 GDDR3 outperforming the 6670 GDDR5 when use on its own. Interesting maybe we should be a little more stringent on benchmarks.



m&m's said:


> 38.8fps vs 45.8fps








Somehow adding the 6670GDDR3 hurts performance yet adding the GDDR5 card helps it. Again either someone is doing a piss poor job with their benchmarks or something is wrong in the setup.



m&m's said:


> 31.4fps vs 46.2fps








Oh wait here is one that takes advantage of the added bandwidth of the card. Interesting how this one game shows such a 10FPS improvement moving from the GDDR3 to GDDR5 card. Something no other benchmarking site shows.




m&m's said:


> 31fps vs 60fps








Crossfire obviously isn't working in this one and somehow you get a 100% improvement with GDDR5.



m&m's said:


> 15.2fps vs 26.7fps








Again crossfire isn't working and somehow almost 100% improvement with the GDDR5...



m&m's said:


> 63fps vs 84.5fps








Again crossfire isn't working. I am starting to see a trend.



m&m's said:


> Average of 114.3 vs 174.4








Interesting how all but one benchmark shows a negative improvement going to 6670 crossfire and this graph shows a positive one...Someone either lacks the ability to average or was looking at a different set of benchmarks than me.



m&m's said:


> Minimal gain? Yeah sure...
> 
> Go with a GDDR5 HD 6670.



Yup your benchmarking site does such a wonderful job can't even get crossfire to work in all but what one benchmark. Yet they are who you base your purchase off of?

Now I am not saying the GDDR5 card offers improvements simply that its not worth any extra money whatsoever. Overclock the GDDR3 card overclock the onboard DDR3 for the IGP both will offer more of an improvement than the GDDR5 card will on its own.


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## m&m's (Nov 25, 2012)

cdawall said:


> Read your own graphs as well?
> 
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture003145.jpg
> ...



Maybe a driver issue? Have you ever heard of bad drivers? It happens.



cdawall said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture004931.jpg
> 
> Somehow adding the 6670GDDR3 hurts performance yet adding the GDDR5 card helps it. Again either someone is doing a piss poor job with their benchmarks or something is wrong in the setup.



Are you kidding me "it helps it", it gives 1 fps, this game is simply not well optimized for dual graphics. (Maybe AMD drivers fault)




cdawall said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture005311.jpg
> 
> Oh wait here is one that takes advantage of the added bandwidth of the card. Interesting how this one game shows such a 10FPS improvement moving from the GDDR3 to GDDR5 card. Something no other benchmarking site shows.



Battlefield 3 needs a lot of memory bandwidth so I'm not surprised that the GDDR3 is bottlenecking the GPU.




cdawall said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture006.jpg
> 
> Crossfire obviously isn't working in this one and somehow you get a 100% improvement with GDDR5.



Again, GDDR3 is bottlenecking the GPU and this game is simply not well optimized for dual graphics, probably AMD drivers fault.



cdawall said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture007.jpg
> 
> Again crossfire isn't working and somehow almost 100% improvement with the GDDR5...



Again, GDDR3 is bottlenecking the GPU and this game is simply not well optimized for dual graphics, probably AMD drivers fault.



cdawall said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture008.jpg
> 
> Again crossfire isn't working. I am starting to see a trend.



Again, GDDR3 is bottlenecking the GPU and this game is simply not well optimized for dual graphics, probably AMD drivers fault.



cdawall said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/121125/Capture009.jpg
> 
> Interesting how all but one benchmark shows a negative improvement going to 6670 crossfire and this graph shows a positive one...Someone either lacks the ability to average or was looking at a different set of benchmarks than me.



44+43+42,4+18,9+33+17,3+38=236,6 = 100
35+35+38,8+31,4+31+15,2+63=249,4 = 105,4

I don't know where they took 14%, but it's 5% higher for the dual graphics GDDR3.

59+59+44,6+28,3+61+33,9+58,5=344,3 = 145,5
70+69+45,8+46,2+60+26,7+84,5=402,2 = 170

Again I don't know how they did their average... but they were near this time.



cdawall said:


> Yup your benchmarking site does such a wonderful job can't even get crossfire to work in all but what one benchmark. Yet they are who you base your purchase off of?



Dafuq? Crossfire was on, but hybrid crossfire does not always give positive results and you can see this in a lot of websites.

Example: http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/cpu/46157-amd-a10-5800k-dual-graphics-evaluation/?page=2

I used this website since that is the only I found that compare dual graphics of the HD 6670 GDDR3 to the GDDR5.



cdawall said:


> Now I am not saying the GDDR5 card offers improvements simply that its not worth any extra money whatsoever. Overclock the GDDR3 card overclock the onboard DDR3 for the IGP both will offer more of an improvement than the GDDR5 card will on its own.



Can't you see that the HD 6670 GPU is bottlenecked by GDDR3? 25.6 GB/s is not enough for this card.

When dual graphics is supported, GDDR5 gives a real boost compared to GDDR3 in most games.


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## cdawall (Nov 26, 2012)

m&m's said:


> Can't you see that the HD 6670 GPU is bottlenecked by GDDR3? 25.6 GB/s is not enough for this card.
> 
> When dual graphics is supported, GDDR5 gives a real boost compared to GDDR3 in most games.



In most games you just posted it wasn't even supported. Like you said for every single time the GDDR3 card didn't loose you claim bad drivers I can do the same thing every single time the GDDR5 card performs better. 

Honestly for the price of the GDDR5 card you may as well just purchase a GTX 550Ti it performs better than the GDDR5 6670 in hybrid crossfire.


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## tecster (Nov 26, 2012)

Apples to apples here people, I'm not looking for a bickering match. I'd like to know what build would just be a basic suit to my needs. 

I'm okay with it being DDR3, as long as it suits my needs. Like I said, I'm not looking to blow something out of the water, just looking to play the games on a decent level with no lag or no worries about graphic lag...

I appreciate all the information, but I'm not looking for this to turn into a pissing competition.


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## cdawall (Nov 26, 2012)

Ddr3 will suit your needs fine. Overclock it some and move on


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## tecster (Nov 26, 2012)

Should I wait for Cyber Monday?


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## tecster (Nov 26, 2012)

if I go with Norton's build, do I need something like this?

Thermal Paste


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## [Ion] (Nov 26, 2012)

tecster said:


> if I go with Norton's build, do I need something like this?
> 
> Thermal Paste



The AMD heatsink will have some pre-applied.


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## tecster (Nov 26, 2012)

Sweet, lookin' at about 353 with no OS.... I hope Microsoft will give me another key.


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