# i7 4790k overheating. Paste finally gone bad?



## Outback Bronze (Feb 6, 2018)

Hey guys,

Ive been playing around with some Haswell i7's. Namely 2 x 4770k's and 1 x 4790k.

Now, both 4770k's are able to do 4.5Ghz @ 1.3v around the 70°c mark give or take. The 4790k will overheat on the default voltage which is around 1.3v @ 4.4Ghz

The board is a Z97X UD5H BK and this is all on a custom loop. All CPU's have been tested on this particular board with RealBench 15m stress test.

I have not changed any other voltage's beside the CPU voltage. 

I noticed that the 4790k was dropping from 4.4Ghz down to 4.1Ghz and the voltage was dropping with it. Also windows would like "Freeze" for a second or two and I was wondering why... It was overheating.

Has the paste finally gone bad on the 4790k and do I need to delid? I cant seem to find any other reason why this CPU is over heating when the (2) 4770k's are not. 

The block is getting ample coverage to the CPU. I took it off to have a look see if it was getting contact and the paste was smeared all over the CPU when I do pea method.

Anybody else with a 4790k had these issues? Is this a common problem with a 4790k?

Thanks.


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## Upgrayedd (Feb 6, 2018)

How hot is it getting exactly? I feel like 70C is pretty hot for a custom loop. When I run boinc that is about the hottest I would get on an single fan air cooler, Noctua NH-U14S. I'm not at 1.3v though. My stock 4790k was defaulting to 1.258v, it was entirely too much. I used the offset - setting and now it does 1.18v @ stock clocks (adaptive doesn't work, it defaults to stock voltage.)

Look, I don't really know shit about TIM life and heat degradation. My guess though is that 1.3v wore out the paste quickly in the 4790k over its life, however, if it was not running much then I have no idea. Just trying to give a perspective of someone who owns one.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 6, 2018)

Upgrayedd said:


> How hot is it getting exactly? I feel like 70C is pretty hot for a custom loop



For the core on RealBench, naah... 

The only thing that could be acting funny is vdroop. The real voltage applied to the core.

Seconds, the platform is already old... who cares, I would have done delid just for the lulz. On ebay there are plenty of cheap tools for that to do it pretty safe, then some conductonaut and we are done.


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## Solariski (Feb 6, 2018)

what about removing the fans on ur rad and checking for dust build up, i had to remove all 3 of my 120mm fans on my 360 rad and it was bad looking. after the clean temps were down for all 8 cores. try that and let me know 

before and after, *unfortunately* the 2nd pic was too big so had to crop it.  u mentioned a custom loop what size is ur rad and how old ,and have u ever cleaned behind the fans is my question for you


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## Outback Bronze (Feb 6, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> Seconds, the platform is already old... who cares, I would have done delid just for the lulz. On ebay there are plenty of cheap tools for that to do it pretty safe, then some conductonaut and we are done.



That's exactly what I'm thinking about doing. I'm just trying to find out if this is normal for this CPU.



Solariski said:


> what about removing the fans on ur rad and checking for dust build up, i had to remove all 3 of my 120mm fans on my 360 rad and it was bad looking. after the clean temps were down for all 8 cores. try that and let me know



Impossible. 4770K's are not overheating. Getting to 70c @ 4.5 - 1.3v. 4790k ill see 90c in a few minutes at default voltage and speed - 4.4 @ 1.3v. BTW rad is super clean from dust.


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## Solariski (Feb 6, 2018)

was just a thought, my rad was dirty for the last 4 months with my 6core but it would still prime 24hrs with  a 1.2gzoc. i was just thinking cleaner rad lower temps.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 6, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> That's exactly what I'm thinking about doing. I'm just trying to find out if this is normal for this CPU.



Mine does behave like that past 4.7GHz@1.35V+, but well it is a hex and soldered, but same Haswell... silicon wise, concerning the leakage and other things, it is close enough to treat is a norm, those 200MHz really ramp up the consumption. Broadwell acts even worse past 4.3GHz.


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## Vario (Feb 6, 2018)

The under lid paste should last a very long time.  I would inspect the watercooling loop.


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## OneMoar (Feb 6, 2018)

70c is pretty good for a haswell chip
if it bothers you, buy the delid tool and replace the paste


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> 4790k ill see 90c in a few minutes at default voltage and speed - 4.4 @ 1.3v.


It's isn't supposed to do that. If it were my system, I'd take it apart and re-apply the thermal compound. I'd also be making sure that the heatsink is making good and tight contact with the top of the CPU. Even the slightest gap will result in serious thermal problems and ultimately damage to the CPU if not corrected.



OneMoar said:


> 70c is pretty good for a haswell chip
> if it bothers you, buy the delid tool and replace the paste


Deliding is only needed if you're doing hardcore overclocking. In this situation, it's not worth the risk of damaging the CPU..


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## OneMoar (Feb 6, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's isn't supposed to do that. If it were my system, I'd take it apart and re-apply the thermal compound. I'd also be making sure that the heatsink is making good and tight contact with the top of the CPU. Even the slightest gap will result in serious thermal problems and ultimately damage to the CPU if not corrected.


it absolutely is supposed to do that on air cooling

if I try 1.35 @ 4.50 it jumps right to 85c and peaks out at 91
its even worse if you are running a small math test like prime

there is no risk of damage if you purchase the delid tool


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 6, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> it absolutely is supposed to do that on air cooling


No, it isn't.


OneMoar said:


> there is no risk of damage if you purchase the delid tool


I've done proper deliding. There is *always* a risk of damaging the CPU die while deliding and then after if you're not *very* careful with mounting the cooler. For the general, non-extreme overclocking user, deliding is not worth the risks involved.


Solariski said:


> what about removing the fans on ur rad and checking for dust build up, i had to remove all 3 of my 120mm fans on my 360 rad and it was bad looking. after the clean temps were down for all 8 cores. try that and let me know  before and after, *unfortunately* the 2nd pic was too big so had to crop it.  u mentioned a custom loop what size is ur rad and how old ,and have u ever cleaned behind the fans is my question for you


Invest in an air-compressor and blow out your system every 3 months or sooner if in a high dust environment or if you have pets. Or just buy cans of air..


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## OneMoar (Feb 6, 2018)

if you take the ihs off and change the paste to some LMT and put the IHS back on there is no risk ... unless you are idiot

and again nothing surpising here
its haswell they get very hot past 1.25v the Current draw on these chips skyrockets the more voltage you feed them and the faster you run them because FIRV 

if you are running at 60C @ 4.0Ghz @ 1.2 v and try 4.5 @ 1.35 it will IT WILL jump 15 or 20c


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## EarthDog (Feb 6, 2018)

4.4 GHz isn't default speed (for all cores), nor is 1.3V default voltage. If so, worst. sample. ever.

There is always a risk of delidding...period. Tool or not. With the tool, there is a lot less risk though.

In order for delidding to be worth it, the CPU should be temperature limited and not voltage limited. Most do not like to run those past 1.35V or so... if you are around there, I don't see a point in risking it just to lower temperatures. But, that is just me.


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## peche (Feb 6, 2018)

well, if temps are bad, custom lop is OK. thermal paste & application methods are OK and also CPU settings @ bios are stock... delid that b*tch and call it done,
Also do you remeber of have record of better clocks and numbers with that processor? if so compared and take the final decision on delid or not, personally i would delidded long ago 

also:

*Performance: 4790K values:*

Processor Base Frequency4.00 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency4.40 GHz
info taken: Core™ i7-4790K : Ark intel®
Seems like values are close to stock, but with some thermal isssues,  so delid is something you do a processor, there will be risks, i have performed several delid's, no issues or bad moments still, is up to you, i always trust razor method, never used a delid mate tool,


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## OneMoar (Feb 6, 2018)

*depends on how you define risk... if you define risk as the potential result from screwing up ....
vrs random occurrence

lower temperatures generally mean a happier chip but the haswell's aren't that sensitive to small temperature improvements  
as the song goes my foot was glued right there to the floor  thats all there isn't and there ain't nomoar


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## Upgrayedd (Feb 6, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> 70c is pretty good for a haswell chip
> if it bothers you, buy the delid tool and replace the paste


It is getting to 90C. That's abnormal.

OP, what happens if you press down on the heatsink mid operation? Temps change at all? Also I would definitely be undervolting.



EarthDog said:


> 4.4 GHz isn't default speed (for all cores), nor is 1.3V default voltage. If so, worst. sample. ever.
> 
> There is always a risk of delidding...period. Tool or not. With the tool, there is a lot less risk though.
> 
> In order for delidding to be worth it, the CPU should be temperature limited and not voltage limited. Most do not like to run those past 1.35V or so... if you are around there, I don't see a point in risking it just to lower temperatures. But, that is just me.


4.4GHz on all cores is default if you have XMP enabled usually. 

Likesomeone else said, .5v can add a lot of heat. Try stepping down to 1.25v and just go lower until it won't bench. If you still hit 90C then you might consider a delid.



OneMoar said:


> *depends on how you define risk... if you define risk as the potential result from screwing up ....
> vrs random occurrence
> 
> lower temperatures generally mean a happier chip but the haswell's aren't that sensitive to small temperature improvements
> as the song goes my foot was glued right there to the floor  thats all there isn't and there ain't nomoar


My risk is static right now. It is far too dry for me right now. Everything I touch gets shocked.


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## Toothless (Feb 6, 2018)

I've never seen XMP enable 4.4 across all cores before, always had to set it manually.

As for the cooling, unless OP is running a D15 with some good fans 90c is easy to hit and still possible at 1.25v. I can get mine to about 85c on 1.3v with my current X60 cooler. Haswell just sucks on cooling.


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## peche (Feb 6, 2018)

Upgrayedd said:


> 4.4GHz on all cores is default if you have XMP enabled usually.
> 
> Likesomeone else said, .5v can add a lot of heat. Try stepping down to 1.25v and just go lower until it won't bench. If you still hit 90C then you might consider a delid.


+1


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## Filip Georgievski (Feb 6, 2018)

Haswell chips are notorius for big temps all around.
Even my Xeon with 1.3v on 4Ghz is not able to hit 80 with an air cooler, let alone water.

I would like to know how hot the vrms get and did yo set line load calibration?
You can set it to 1.25v with +0.5v on offset and see if it needs that extra voltage.


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 6, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:
			
		

> Paste finally gone bad?


TIM (thermal interface material) does not "go bad". It will easily last 10, 15 years or longer AS LONG AS the cured bond between the mating surfaces is not broken. 

Not one TIM maker, CPU maker, cooler maker, motherboard maker or computer maker recommends replacing the TIM just because X number of years have passed. Not one! And they sure would if it was necessary to prevent bad publicity (due to degraded performance issues) or to increase sales of more TIM products. 

So if the bond is not broken, it does not need to be replaced.

Even if it dries out, it does not need to be replaced because the heat "conducting" solids that remain are still doing their job of filling the microscopic pits and valleys in mating surfaces, thus preventing any "insulating" air from getting in. The only reason TIM comes in a liquified form when new is so you can squeeze it out of the tube and spread it evenly, thinly, and smoothly across the CPU die.

If you "need" the extra few degrees of cooling a fresh application of TIM _might_ provide to alleviate thermal issues (throttling or shutdowns), then you have greater problems than just aging TIM that need to be addressed more urgently.


Outback Bronze said:


> The block is getting ample coverage to the CPU. I took it off to have a look see if it was getting contact and the paste was smeared all over the CPU when I do pea method.


So just to be sure, when you took it off to have a look, you then thoroughly cleaned the mating surfaces and applied a fresh "new" layer of TIM, right? You should NEVER reuse TIM. 

And peas come in different sizes. So do grains of rice. So using those descriptors really does not work. The idea is you apply a layer as thin as possible, but still have complete coverage. Remember, the purpose of the TIM is to fill those microscopic pits and valleys in the mating surfaces to push out any trapped insulating air. The best, most efficient transfer of heat occurs with direct metal-to-metal contact. So any extra TIM is actually in the way and counterproductive to the heat transfer process - even with the best quality TIMs.

Also, remember it is the case's responsibility to provide a sufficient supply of cool air flowing through the case. The CPU cooler just needs to toss the CPU's heat into that flow. And that flow is needed to remove heat generated by other components that affect computer stability, but don't benefit from the CPU's cooler (like the chipset, RAM, and other devices). If the flow is not sufficient enough to extract heat fast enough, heat will build up in the case. So look at your case cooling too. See if your case supports more fans or larger fans and consider adding another fan if necessary. 

And of course, make sure the case interior is clean of heat trapping dust and you have good cable management to minimize cables impacting that desired front-to-back (or bottom-to-top) air flow through the case.



Upgrayedd said:


> My risk is static right now. It is far too dry for me right now. Everything I touch gets shocked.


That's why you touch or even plant your hand on the bare metal of the case interior before even thinking about reaching it. That will discharge any static in your body, and prevent it from building up. If your environment is that dry, you might consider a spray bottle with water and lay down on the carpet/rug a light mist every hour or so. Adding few drops of fabric softener to the water works even better to eliminate static for longer periods of time. But eventually, that fabric softener builds up on the carpet - not nice. So best to stick with plain water most of the time, unless that carpet or rug is expendable and inexpensive to replace. Or, just get a room humidifier.


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## John Naylor (Feb 6, 2018)

I have a 4770k here and have it set at 1.3875 VCore at 47 CPU Multiplier and 44 Cache Multiplier.  Originally had cache at 4.7 and tho many claim 'core is king:" I saw performance drops in graphics programs when cache was more than 3 below CPU multiplier.  I used the following BIOS settings

VCore    1.385
VCC Ring    1.410
VCCIN (Ev)    2.040
DRAM    1.70
Avg Max Core Temp = 72.0C (24.4C Ambient)
Average Core Temps (76, 71, 69, 64)
DRAM Voltage= 1.7

The thing to watch out for here is that whenever AVX instruction sets are present, there's a boost in Vcore from 0.10 to 0.13 volts.  This is why I advise aganst synthetic benchmarks.  Using RogG Real Bench, I'd see spikes up over 1.5 volts when running portions of the RoG benchmark but only for fractions of a second.  On average it would be 1.392 - 1.408 with sustained peaks at 1.424.  It's been ronning 24/7 since November 2013.  Coolant temps run about 8.3C over ambient wih 3 x 140mm and 2 x 140mm rads and 1200 rpm Phanteks 1200 fans running from 350 - 800 rpm.  Under Furmark, the 2 GFX cards have GPU temps @ 44C

From the original post, I got the impression that multiple CPUs were tested on the same board recently ... in which case I don't understand the worry about "old paste"

The number and specs on rads and fans w/ rpms would be helpful, as would coolant temp.  What TIM are you using ...,The 1st of the links below is a old roundup of 80 TIM products ... Shin Etsi and AS% tied for top honors the As5 has capacitance and curing issues so best avoided.  Nothing much has changed since other than Grizzly's entry into the market.  While Grizzly's top tier product is a better paste than Shin Etsu's $3 TIM, it's 5-6 times as expensive and hard to find ... not worth it for the small gain IMO.   Good reading here:

https://archive.benchmarkreviews.co...&id=150&Itemid=99999999&limit=1&limitstart=12
https://archive.benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=170

I'll add that leaving the voltage at it's auto setting gave me a test voltage of 1.248 @ stock settings ... at 4.o Ghz OC, it was only 1.216 when set manually.

As for the 4790k, might find some valuable info here:

http://www.overclock.net/forum/5-intel-cpus/1490324-intel-devil-s-canyon-owners-club.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eq47hMUI8A/htmlembed?usp=sharing&widget=false

I see several CPUs at 4.8 GHz @ 1.32V with 60 - 72C temps

Do temps change from Day 1 ?  Absolutely .... AS5 for example takes 7 - 8 weeks to finish curing and you will see the temps drop 1 - 3 C over that times the solvent gases off. ... so yes the TIM does change once the original bond is made.  Application force is important, many folks won't apply the recommend 60-70 pounds of clamping force.  If ya lay a the TIM too thick, this can also lead to deterioration ... on that note, the guy who came up with the pea thing musta had some pretty small peas.  From the above link, you can see the proper size drop via the "pea method"

https://archive.benchmarkreviews.co...est_CPU_Coolers_Q1-2008/TIM_Before_Spread.jpg

We do a quarterly run of tests on our test rig and look at this ... run RoG Real Bench using 6 thermal sensors (0.1C accuracy) and a 6 channel digital display...temps are monitored at 4 points in the loop and ambient and interior case temps.  Test is done after a routine cleaning.  What we found is yes, temps due chnage over time.... this rig is 4 years old.  A number of factors are considered contributory:

a)  TIM degradation - Considered very slight, maybe 0.1 with a good paste, lil more with crappy stuff.
b)  Oxidation / film buildup inside loop  - Again depends on quality of components, somewhat significant Id guess it at 0.1 - 0.2C
c)   Poor mount - w/ air bubbles. inadequate pressure - can be 2-4 C
d)  Galvanic action - This is H U G E on CLC type water cooling when aluminum rads are used with copper blocks.  Corrosion inhibitors have a useful life of 18 - 24 months ... when ya have no way to add new dose in closed loops... galvanic corrosion will begin and temp increases of 10C can be experienced.... its a law of chemistry, and not avoidable.  Here's how bad it can get .... warning, pics may be upsetting 

https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/corrosion-explored/

As for things to check ...

1.  If ya used a quality TIM, then try a remount.
2.  If ya used something crappy , try replacing it.
3.  Flush ya loop
4.  If a custom loop, look inside rads and if ya see any film or lacitance, give them the blitz kit treatment
5.  If ya have a 4-5 year old CLC, trash it and get an OLC with all copper components or custom loop.

Every two years I take my loop down and flush it.  Usually results in 1.0 - 1.5C eliminating any degrade which occured.  I have tried replacing TIM on our own systems, just for curiosity's sake,  after 2-3 years and have seen increases from 0.0 - 1.2C , bit more close to 0.0 than 1.2  We have also replaced TIM on boxes brought in as user was unwilling to tackle job themselves and seem significant improvements to to inadequate pressure, air bubbled, uncovered areas and yes. on rare occasions  even dried / cracked TIM.

To sum up, without knowing what the components are, BIOS settings, what the clamp down force is, and other factors, it's hard to point you to a small list of options.  But with numbers that high, it's not going to be what TIM you used.    Have you bled the loop ?  Do you have a means to capture "off-gassing" (reservoir) ?  Any mixed metals ?  Did MoBo get the latest  BIOS upgrade for Devils Canyon ?  These are the things I'd expect to get you to > 90C


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 6, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> AS5 for example takes 7 - 8 weeks


Weeks? Never seen it take that long. Usually several days and that is also affected by the number of heat-up/cool-down (power on/power off) cycles it goes through too. 

In any case, the point is the same; many TIMs do indeed provide a few more degrees of cooling once they have cured. But again, if you "need" those "few" degrees to move you far enough away from the thermal protection thresholds to prevent stability, throttling or shutdown issues, you have bigger problems than just your TIM.


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## OneMoar (Feb 6, 2018)

stating the obvious here
but is the pump working ... have you topped it up on coolant


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 6, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> stating the obvious here


Oh, you mean those things that are often overlooked?  Like is (are) the fan(s) spinning?


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## EarthDog (Feb 6, 2018)

Upgrayedd said:


> 4.4GHz on all cores is default if you have XMP enabled usually.
> 
> Likesomeone else said, .5v can add a lot of heat. Try stepping down to 1.25v and just go lower until it won't bench. If you still hit 90C then you might consider a delid.





peche said:


> +1



depends on the board... but again that isnt stock behavior. That is the motherboard overriding intel with MCE. It also can raise other voltages like SA and IO which can affect temps.

Also, adding .5V is a lot. Like a bit under 50% more. .05v is a different story...these things. Stock are around 1.2V. So .5v would be almost deadly there.... not sure where toy were going with that...


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## peche (Feb 6, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Weeks? Never seen it take that long. Usually several days and that is also affected by the number of heat-up/cool-down (power on/power off) cycles it goes through too.


Arctic Silver itself claims a 200 burn in period.... need a link ?



OneMoar said:


> stating the obvious here
> but is the pump working ... have you topped it up on coolant


this is senseless, op claims to run another 2 processors on same sys with better temps, for me is the processor, TIM between Bare die and IHS have a broken bond, making poor contact and heat transfer, i call a delid... but is just my opinion ...


Regards,


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## EarthDog (Feb 6, 2018)

That can be done in a week and a day... and its performance difference when 'burned in' doesn't change much. This has been tested on the web. And nobody (should be) wasting time burning in their paste. First, most don't have a burn in time, second, the difference is so little a slight change in ambient negates any gains or hope of empircal testing by the average forum goer.


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## Reeves81x (Feb 6, 2018)

my first thought is warpage, either with the IHS or the cpu PCB itself causing the TIM to separate. Happens when people tighten the heatsink too much. the pressure can squeeze and thin out the TIM, then it hardens in place, once removed the pressure is gone and the TIM separates as the IHS returns to its uncompressed state "talking thousands of inch". Can you check to see if the block is hot when it's overheating? That should give you a good idea of where the issue lies. If its cool, its either a physical cpu issue like warpage/TIM seperation or a bad senor in the CPU.


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## mouacyk (Feb 6, 2018)

Bought an i7-5775C recently, brand new and un-opened.  Delidded it straight away and found that the stock TIM has hardended.  It was coming off the die in chunks when removing with edge of a credit card.  The 4790K is older than the 5775C.  The TIM in combination with the extra gap from the adhesive adds variables you don't want, when trying to tame the temperature.  Vise-only method to delid is plenty safe -- youtube it and get it done today.


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## Outback Bronze (Feb 6, 2018)

mouacyk said:


> Bought an i7-5775C recently, brand new and un-opened.  Delidded it straight away and found that the stock TIM has hardended.  It was coming off the die in chunks when removing with edge of a credit card.  The 4790K is older than the 5775C.  The TIM in combination with the extra gap from the adhesive adds variables you don't want, when trying to tame the temperature.  Vise-only method to delid is plenty safe -- youtube it and get it done today.



This is exactly what I think the problem is.

A lot of guys here are saying  blah, blah, blah, about the loop etc, but if they are reading my op properly they would realize I did not get over heating problems on 2 x 4770k's at an OC setting of 4.5GHz @ 1.3v on the same board. Guys, the loop and pump are all sweet including the paste I'm applying.

So this begs the question why am I getting overheating problems on a stock 4790k when apparently intel fixed/improved the thermal paste between the two processors. The 4790k should not be overheating. Period.

All 3 CPU's were tested within half and hour of each other so fresh paste was applied each time.

I'm thinking about undervolting/underclocking the 4790k a tad just to see if it will still hit the 80-90°c range. Ill report back.


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## Reeves81x (Feb 6, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> This is exactly what I think the problem is.
> 
> A lot of guys here are saying  blah, blah, blah, about the loop etc, but if they are reading my op properly they would realize I did not get over heating problems on 2 x 4770k's at an OC setting of 4.5GHz @ 1.3v on the same board. Guys, the loop and pump are all sweet including the paste I'm applying.
> 
> ...



so again, my first thought is warpage, either with the IHS or the cpu PCB itself causing the TIM to separate. Happens when people tighten the heatsink too much. the pressure can squeeze and thin out the TIM, then it hardens in place, once removed the pressure is gone and the TIM separates as the IHS returns to its uncompressed state "talking thousands of inch". Can you check to see if the block is hot when it's overheating? That should give you a good idea of where the issue lies. If its cool, its either a physical cpu issue like warpage/TIM seperation or a bad senor in the CPU.

So, its not your loop. options are

a) Delid
b) tighten past recommended specs "I don't recommend."

I would delid and call it a day.

Undervolting will get you part of the way, but the only way to fix the problem properly is to delid.


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 6, 2018)

peche said:


> Arctic Silver itself claims a 200 burn in period.... need a link ?


Nah! Too minor a point. But I think it actually says 50 - 200 hours. But I also think that is dependent on the number of heat-up/cool down cycles too.


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## peche (Feb 6, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Nah! Too minor a point. But I think it actually says 50 - 200 hours. But I also think that is dependent on the number of heat-up/cool down cycles too.


pretty much, i use to tint cooler base, to minimize the brak in period, when use their paste...



Spoiler: 200hrs...



Important Reminder:
Due to the unique shape and sizes of the particles in Arctic Silver 5's conductive matrix, it will take a up to 200 hours and several thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity. (This period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink or with a low speed fan on the heatsink.) On systems measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, the measured temperature will often drop 2C to 5C over this "break-in" period. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool to room temperature. Once the break-in is complete, the computer can be left on if desired.

info taken: http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm





Outback Bronze said:


> This is exactly what I think the problem is.


why if you suspect that  still wondering monkey things and haven't delid it?

Regards,


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## Outback Bronze (Feb 7, 2018)

peche said:


> why if you suspect that still wondering monkey things and haven't delid it?



I'm just about to mate. I would really like to know if anybody else has come across this problem before. Is this a common problem with the 4970k?

Was doing some more testing this morning. 4790K hit 81°C @  1.268v 4.4Ghz which was default. Ambient was 22°C.

Chucked in a 4770k after that. It's max was 71°C at 1. 262v. I overclocked it to 4.4Ghz and overvolted it to match the 4790k. Ambient was 22°C. Difference of 10°C. Shouldn't the TIM on the 4790k work better at the same speeds? I thought intel improved the TIM over the 4770k. Am I wrong?

Please explain? I'm calling the TIM is Fubar. Will Delid over the weekend and see what happens.

Thanks for all responses : )


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## Toothless (Feb 7, 2018)

Sounds like you have a bad lotto on the chip.


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## dcf-joe (Feb 7, 2018)

As far as the paste goes, the MX4 that I put on my 2600K back in 2012 was finally redone, with new MX4, two weeks ago. After the reinstallation, I did not notice any temperature differences. The initial installation was using the pea method and the method used two weeks ago was the single line down the middle. Seems like six years did not phase that paste.


----------



## peche (Feb 7, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Chucked in a 4770k after that. It's max was 71°C at 1. 262v. I overclocked it to 4.4Ghz and overvolted it to match the 4790k. Ambient was 22°C. Difference of 10°C. Shouldn't the TIM on the 4790k work better at the same speeds? I thought intel improved the TIM over the 4770k. Am I wrong?


completely right, paste should be better, that was the main fact about the proccesor, and OC potentials if not wrong,



Outback Bronze said:


> Will Delid over the weekend and see what happens.


delid tool? razor method?
i always use razor method, all you need is a sharpen razor blade and lot of patience, be careful and patient, start in a corner, them move to the other one, pushing softly the blade, pretty easy,
Coollaboratory liquid ultra, for the bare die, between bare die and I.H.S. , then over IHS use your desired or trusted TIM, since you saw processor naked, now you know where to use small line method for Tim appliance,





dcf-joe said:


> As far as the paste goes, the MX4 that I put on my 2600K back in 2012 was finally redone, with new MX4, two weeks ago. After the reinstallation, I did not notice any temperature differences. The initial installation was using the pea method and the method used two weeks ago was the single line down the middle. Seems like six years did not phase that paste.


Arctic itself claims as minimal 8 years of life for this TIM, click image for moar info !




Regards,


----------



## Vario (Feb 7, 2018)

Just sell the 4790K and buy another.  Differential between high priced Buy It Now on ebay and the lower priced auction snipe covers the fees.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 7, 2018)

peche said:


> Arctic itself claims as minimal 8 years


Key words being "minimal" and "at least" 8 years. No where does it say it should be replaced after 8 years. Frankly, I think they just picked 8 as an arbitrary number. Large enough to be impressive, without getting their shyster... err... legal department riled up with some "life time" claim or such. The fact is, most users who would actually buy and use after market TIM don't keep their computers for 8 years. Or for sure, don't go 8 years without removing the cooler - which would then require a new application of TIM anyway.


----------



## peche (Feb 7, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Key words being "minimal" and "at least" 8 years. No where does it say it should be replaced after 8 years. Frankly, I think they just picked 8 as an arbitrary number. Large enough to be impressive, without getting their shyster... err... legal department riled up with some "life time" claim or such. The fact is, most users who would actually buy and use after market TIM don't keep their computers for 8 years. Or for sure, don't go 8 years without removing the cooler - which would then require a new application of TIM anyway.



totally agreed, but the thing is thay they at least say that for 8 years will be working, something they tried i guess, duno how or when but to state something like that they must a raw proof,  also i had a pc for 5 years, without manitenance, thats the longest time i know one of my machines or familly ones, in my office there was an old alien ware with core 2 duo that was pluged and serving for 10 years, never fgot maintenance, i wish i could have had some minutes with it....


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 7, 2018)

I've gone on trouble calls where really old Dell, HP or Compaq systems have been sitting in the same spot for 10 years or longer and never had the side panel opened once for cleaning or any maintenance. And the OEM TIM "pads" still worked fine in spite of the fact the heat sinks were caked with all kinds of nasties. I reluctantly have to give credit to those old, off-brand generic PSUs too.


----------



## Vario (Feb 7, 2018)

I had Arctic Silver 5 on a 939 machine I sold to a friend in 2008.  I got the machine back in 2015 and the AS5 was like a dried up tough painted on powder and was fairly hard to remove, soaked it in alcohol until it came off.  I couldn't check the temps with the old paste because the machine had died due to failed capacitors.  That particular Arctic Silver 5 was probably applied in 2006.  Would have been interesting to see what the temps were.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 7, 2018)

As noted above, it does not matter if the TIM dries. It is the solids that remain behind that do the heat transfer work while preventing insulating air from getting in those microscopic pits and valleys.

FTR, I use 91-93% Isopropyl alcohol to clean the mating surfaces. The typical Isopropyl alcohol is around 73-75%. The lower concentration will work, but often take a little more elbow grease. And the lower concentrate may leave a film too. That film probably causes no harm - but I don't like it. The higher concentrate is not always that easy to find but most pharmacies carry it.


----------



## peche (Feb 7, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I've gone on trouble calls where really old Dell, HP or Compaq systems have been sitting in the same spot for 10 years or longer and never had the side panel opened once for cleaning or any maintenance. And the OEM TIM "pads" still worked fine in spite of the fact the heat sinks were caked with all kinds of nasties. I reluctantly have to give credit to those old, off-brand generic PSUs too.


i have seen some older machines, that also perform better compared so many others, even moar recently build ones,  those are the things that logic and knowledge cannot explain,



Vario said:


> I had Arctic Silver 5 on a 939 machine I sold to a friend in 2008.  I got the machine back in 2015 and the AS5 was like a dried up tough painted on powder and was fairly hard to remove, soaked it in alcohol until it came off.  I couldn't check the temps with the old paste because the machine had died due to failed capacitors.  That particular Arctic Silver 5 was probably applied in 2006.  Would have been interesting to see what the temps were.



i have also have some time with dried almost dusty TIM, on died PC's, and electronics, gotta confess that sometimes we forget to check a computer like that and see numbers, you clean and take out all crap of it and repaste / replace to return it,



Bill_Bright said:


> As noted above, it does not matter if the TIM dries. It is the solids that remain behind that do the heat transfer work while preventing insulating air from getting in those microscopic pits and valleys.


not always dried paste means problems, agree on that....



Bill_Bright said:


> FTR, I use 91-93% Isopropyl alcohol to clean the mating surfaces. The typical Isopropyl alcohol is around 73-75%. The lower concentration will work, but often take a little more elbow grease. And the lower concentrate may leave a film too. That film probably causes no harm - but I don't like it. The higher concentrate is not always that easy to find but most pharmacies carry it.


ether~! thats all we need


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 7, 2018)

peche said:


> not always dried paste means problems, agree on that....


Yeah - again, as long as the cured bond has never been broken. 

Ironically, that cured bond is often broken by some users twisting the HSF assembly too hard to see if it loose - thus breaking it loose! 

Ether works, but leaning over an open case while working with ether can result in unexpected naps, bonked faces, and headaches!


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 7, 2018)

peche said:


> delid tool? razor method?



delid tool? razor method?

*Rockit Cool Rockit 88* 

Ive done the razor method a couple of times and killed one 3570k in the process. So I purchased a delid tool. I have a plethora of CPU's to delid, starting with a 4790k : )

Intel are not soldering anymore so thought a delid tool will come in handy. Also purchased the relid with it. 

Pretty sure it will do Coffee Lake also so gota get me one of those processors and give it a whirl, when the time comes.


----------



## John Naylor (Feb 7, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Weeks? Never seen it take that long. Usually several days and that is also affected by the number of heat-up/cool-down (power on/power off) cycles it goes through too.
> 
> In any case, the point is the same; many TIMs do indeed provide a few more degrees of cooling once they have cured. But again, if you "need" those "few" degrees to move you far enough away from the thermal protection thresholds to prevent stability, throttling or shutdown issues, you have bigger problems than just your TIM.



1.  Have ya ever visited the AS5 website ?

http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm

_"Important Reminder:__
Due to the unique shape and sizes of the particles in Arctic Silver 5's conductive matrix, it will take a up to 200 hours and several thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity.   (This period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink or with a low speed fan on the heatsink.) On systems measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, the measured temperature will often drop *2C to 5C *over this "break-in" period. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool to room temperature. Once the break-in  is complete, the computer can be left on if desired."_

I see posts saying "1 - 2C  doesn't matter" and while I don't agree, I can understand why it may not matter "to them".  But 2 - 5C ... no, 5C matters.  Take a typical Home PC with a user who works for a living and has a life outside video games ... 200 hours / 4 hours per day = 7+ weeks.  ... On a 2011 2600k build w/ 4.8GHz OC (adjusted for ambient temps) we measured dropped temps at 1, 2 ,3 and 6 months later tho, as expected, most of the drops were in the 1st 2 months, 3rd had different numbers but same average temp and 6 months average was only 0.4 lower.  Over that 6 months, the average only dropped about 2.3 C but one core dropped a whopping 4.4 C and that matters a a lot.  And no, ... leaving the PC in idle 24 hours a day is not putting it thru the necessary paces.  In fact, that AS5 statement is a revision .. it used to say "200 hours of thermal cycling".  It's the heating up and cooling down cycle that accomplish the curing.

Reason No. 2

_"Arctic Silver 5 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity.
(While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 5 should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. While it is not electrically conductive, the compound is very slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridges two close-proximity electrical paths.)"_

As for the final statement ... first question is what does this have to do with AS5 ? ... they both have the same ultimate thermal performance. The issue is when setting the PC, you can't create a performance base point at Day 1.  Can you take your own desired temp limits (or the person you are building for) and set up the best OC w/o exceeding those limits  ?  If your personal goal is 75C will that 4.8 Ghz OC that produces 79C drop down to 75C in 1 ... 3 ... 6 months ?   ... who knows ?   Even at 8 hours a day, you are 25 days away from undertaking the task of getting the final dial in on your OC.

Let me rephrase because i don't "get" the comment.  How is that any different from saying ...

_But again, if you "need" to d*rop your OC a few notches*  to move you far enough away from the thermal protection thresholds to prevent stability, throttling or shutdown issues, you have bigger problems ...._

or 

_But again, if you "need" to *add a 3rd party cooler*  to move you far enough away from the thermal protection thresholds to prevent stability, throttling or shutdown issues, you have bigger problems ...._

That 5C is bigger than the difference between mnay $30 coolers and $90 coolers.

_But again, if you "need" to  *build your own PC*  to get better performance you have bigger problems ..._

No, I don't have any problems at all.  The PC is out the door, user is happy and he walked out with the best OC that that box is capable of.   he don't have to disassemble it and bring it back and I don't have to spend another weekend dialing in their OC.    I have never let a system out the door that was *anywhere near* _"thermal protection thresholds to prevent stability, throttling or shutdown issues_". But as anyone who takes pride in their work, I strive to own or deliver the best product possible.  I would not do business with anyone who believed "good enough" was a goal to strive for.  So the logic of the statement escapes me.

When building a PC for someone, within the confines of his budget I will strive to deliver the best completed build I can and with the best OC I can.  That means selecting the best electronics options within budget and also selecting the best cooling options within budget.   

Picking a $37 Mugen Max gets me 3C over a $30 Cryorig C7.  If a $20 Noctua AF-14 fan delvers a CPU temp at 1200 rpm of 56C and a $10 Phantekls PH-140SP delivers 50C, which one do you buy ?  With the fans, cooler and TIM, regardless of the magnitide of the improvement, what is the logic of ever paying more for a product that delivers less ? 

Now paying more for a better product requires an evaluation... 

Is it worth $7 paying more for a cooler that drops temps 3C ?   I would
Is it worth paying is it worth paying 5 times more for  a hard to find TIM (Grizzly Kyonaut) that delivers a fraction of a degree more ?  Most of the time no.

And I certainly wouldn't swap out the two products if already installed, well at least the TIM, but when making the choice up front,  why not get the safe, cheaper and less hassle product from the getgo ?  If asked to change the Cooler, add quiet fans (Noctua or Phanteks) and TIM on a fiend's PC would you ....

Cryorig H7 ($30) w/ (2) Noctua AF-14s ($40) and AS5($6.38) =  $76.38
Mugen Max ($37 w/ -3C)  / (2) Phanteks F140SPs (($120 w/-6C)  and Shin Etsu G751 ($3.88 w/ up to -5C Day 1) =  $60.88

I can spend $16 less and walk away with as much as 14C combined advantages on build day ... for LESS money dday

I just don't see why the same thought shouldn't go into TIM as any other component.  Again, this dicussion is not about the TIM's ultimate performance; and bringing stability and throttling into any "reasonable build" discussion is simply irrelevant;  What the 3 issues here are:

a)  1 hour curing or 200 hours curing ... some might not care ... but for me, one  hour is the easy choice because:

-    If it's my build, I get to do the build on my workbench and do all the over clocking with all my tools available in one session.  I don't have to place it in service on a  desk and leave it there for 1, 2 months or more and then have to take my primary PC out of service for 2 days.  While it's not a lot of manhours making the adjustments, stability tests run for hours.  Final Memtest takes 12 hours all by itself.  So while I'm re-testing, I'm left with just my lappie for all my puter needs for 2 days.

-    If it's a build I'm doing for someone else, I can send the PC out the door fully overclocked to max OC within user's desired temp limits and not have them come back in 2 - 3 months to redo it all.

b)  Picking a TIM with a risk of damage, however small, or no risk ... no risk wins in a no contest decision

c)  $3.88 or $6.88  ... $3.88 wins in another "no contest" decision


----------



## Reeves81x (Feb 7, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> I'm just about to mate. I would really like to know if anybody else has come across this problem before. Is this a common problem with the 4970k?
> 
> Was doing some more testing this morning. 4790K hit 81°C @  1.268v 4.4Ghz which was default. Ambient was 22°C.
> 
> ...


Im speechless.... READ THIS
o again, my first thought is warpage, either with the IHS or the cpu PCB itself causing the TIM to separate. Happens when people tighten the heatsink too much. the pressure can squeeze and thin out the TIM, then it hardens in place, once removed the pressure is gone and the TIM separates as the IHS returns to its uncompressed state "talking thousands of inch". Can you check to see if the block is hot when it's overheating? That should give you a good idea of where the issue lies. If its cool, its either a physical cpu issue like warpage/TIM seperation or a bad senor in the CPU.

So, its not your loop. options are

a) Delid
b) tighten past recommended specs "I don't recommend."

I would delid and call it a day.

Undervolting will get you part of the way, but the only way to fix the problem properly is to delid. 

YES it is common....


Amazing how you can write the same explanation 3 times and the op still asks for explanation. -_- now I remember why i deleted my 2006 account a couple years back... lol.


----------



## peche (Feb 7, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Ironically, that cured bond is often broken by some users twisting the HSF assembly too hard to see if it loose - thus breaking it loose!


this like a certified fact, well played, 



Outback Bronze said:


> delid tool? razor method?
> 
> *Rockit Cool Rockit 88*
> 
> ...


how did ya killed that little ivy? have done several without problems so far, wish this superpower remain in me, 

dunno about soldering, as far as i knew intel did solder extreme core i7 editions, for example 5960X or so,  wish they continue soldering and delivering products that could achieve better clocks without the need of delid,


----------



## Upgrayedd (Feb 7, 2018)

Did you ever push on it while it was running? If you can push on it and temps go down immediately then yeah definitely something wrong with the mating surfaces.

Pushing might also do nothing, worth a shot though.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 8, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Weeks? Never seen it take that long.


Arctic Silver 5 can take up to 6 weeks to fully cure and reach optimal thermal performance. Gelid formulations can take about a month. CoolerMaster's formulations are designed to stay soft and slightly fluid-like and never fully "cure".


Bill_Bright said:


> I think they just picked 8 as an arbitrary number.


Or the scientists who actually know the formulae and have done rigorous testing naturally know what to expect from the compounds and gave the marketing department realistic numbers. That seems a lot more likely and plausible.


----------



## Vario (Feb 8, 2018)

I've heard the weeks to cure argument, but purely anecdotally, it generally stays the same temperature when first applied and a year later in my experience.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Feb 8, 2018)

Vario said:


> I've heard the weeks to cure argument, but purely anecdotally, it generally stays the same temperature when first applied and a year later in my experience.


The temperature variance is naturally small, at the most %5, but that wasn't really the point. The point being discussed was the curing times.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 8, 2018)

peche said:


> how did ya killed that little ivy? have done several without problems so far, wish this superpower remain in me,



Beats me.

I didn't even harm/Scratch the PCB. It was clean as a whistle. Maybe got over confident that my razor skills were good and its too easy.

Tested the CPU on a few 77 boards with no joy, hence I bought the delidding tool.

Damn shame too. It was one of the better 3570k I had. Did 4.5 @ 1.17v


----------



## peche (Feb 8, 2018)

Vario said:


> I've heard the weeks to cure argument, but purely anecdotally, it generally stays the same temperature when first applied and a year later in my experience.


well, based on experience on most computers i have repasted and their owners have choosen AS5, numbers are interesting to see, paste lowers like 1or2 c over days, i usally try 5 thermal cicles or shutdowns, then compare numbers and see the drop, get yourself a tube of AS5 and check the numbers, also if you tint cooler base you could lower the curing time, is also stated at their site...
Personally i preffer AC MX2 or 4 over this and plenty moar TIM's....



lexluthermiester said:


> Arctic Silver 5 can take up to 6 weeks to fully cure and reach optimal thermal performance. Gelid formulations can take about a month. CoolerMaster's formulations are designed to stay soft and slightly fluid-like and never fully "cure".


to be exact like 2 months indeed, also depending on usage and how high temps reach for a big timelapse this curing time gets reduced, 



lexluthermiester said:


> Or the scientists who actually know the formulae and have done rigorous testing naturally know what to expect from the compounds and gave the marketing department realistic numbers. That seems a lot more likely and plausible.


+1



Outback Bronze said:


> Beats me.
> 
> I didn't even harm/Scratch the PCB. It was clean as a whistle. Maybe got over confident that my razor skills were good and its too easy.
> 
> ...


thats so sad to know, i did made a scratch on a 4790K i did for a mate, though i did killed the processor, right know stills @ 4.9, 1.25V full time, reached 5.0 GHZ @ 1.33v, 5.5 GHZ 1.38V owners decided to stay under 1.30v,  i was afraid i did killed this b*tch....


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 8, 2018)

peche said:


> 5.5 GHZ 1.38V



WOW sweet CPU!


----------



## peche (Feb 8, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> WOW sweet CPU!


dude there are Devils canyon with the devils inside indeed, i5's are well known for great clocks, 

Regards,


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

Update guys.

Successfully delided : )

Here are the results. 

Before:

The Loop

















After  Liquid Pro between Die and IHS













Notice the Ambient is 3°C higher and the core voltage is .03v higher and its *still* 10°C cooler.

Now here are some shots at the same speed but with an offset voltage of - 0.03 set in the bios. 









This setting did pass a 15m RealBench test.

*Ok case closed.*

What shits me guys is that Intel sell these Processors as an enthusiast grade overclocking CPU and we have to pay a premium for them.

I find this *PATHETIC INTEL*!


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

Good results. 

Intel knows what they are doing. Id think if the paste broke down between die and ihs, your temps would have been a lot worse. 

Screencaps are hilarious though. Why do so many people seem unaware of prt scn and pasting the file in paint. I feel like its the 90s whwn i see screencaps, lol!


----------



## Ferrum Master (Feb 9, 2018)

ATI Radeon X800 as a monument


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Good results.
> 
> Intel knows what they are doing. Id think if the paste broke down between die and ihs, your temps would have been a lot worse.
> 
> Screencaps are hilarious though. Why do so many people seem unaware of prt scn and pasting the file in paint. I feel like its the 90s whwn i see screencaps, lol!



I have to resize my files off my phone because the files are too big to upload to TPU. Most of (all) the photos that I had taken are like 5mb. TPU can only take 2mb yeah?

Is there any other way of resizing? It is a pain in the arse.

BTW I just tried your method and the print screen came in at 10mb... What to do?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> I have to resize my files off my phone because the files are too big to upload to TPU. Most of (all) the photos that I had taken are like 5mb. TPU can only take 2mb yeah?
> 
> Is there any other way of resizing? It is a pain in the arse.
> 
> BTW I just tried your method and the print sceen came in at 10mb... What to do?


Paint and its better, free alternative, Paint.Net both allow you to resize your image before saving and earlier while editing.

However, there is an even easier tool I use if all I want to do is resize: Image Resizer.

https://filehippo.com/download_image_resizer_for_windows/


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

10MB??? Save it as a jpg dude. Resize.

The basics.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> I have to resize my files off my phone because the files are too big to upload to TPU. Most of (all) the photos that I had taken are like 5mb. TPU can only take 2mb yeah?
> 
> Is there any other way of resizing? It is a pain in the arse.
> 
> BTW I just tried your method and the print screen came in at 10mb... What to do?



Holy crap, and this is an enthusiast forum? PAINT?! Print screen?!?

1. Hit START
2. Type 'SNIP'
3. Hit ENTER

Enjoy.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> 10MB??? Save it as a jpg dude. Resize.
> 
> The basics.



Mate, I just saved as a jpeg and it still saved it as 3.41mb...


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

Same amount of steps... 

Prt scn
open paint
paste

Typing, lol...(not a kb shortcut guy except in office, lol)



Outback Bronze said:


> Mate, I just saved as a jpeg and it still saved it as 3.41mb...


RESIZE IT....GOOD GAWD MAN...lol

Do yoy have 4k monitor or multiple monitors???? Why is that file size so big????


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Same amount of steps...
> 
> Prt scn
> open paint
> ...



I got a 4k Monitor and the photo is from a iPhone 7+..

Sorry if I aint any good at posting pictures yet. I aint no guru yet : (


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

4k...ok. Again... resize it down. 1920x1080 should be fine.

This is not guru level knowledge.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Same amount of steps...
> 
> Prt scn
> open paint
> ...



Except... the snipping tool also automatically saves as jpeg / web friendly sizes and you can instantly copy/paste the snip to any application you want to use it in, without saving it somewhere. You can also make custom selections and screengrab anything you want instead of the whole screen..

Your three steps only get you into paint, next is resizing, saving, choosing format, location, etc etc etc

#Firstworldenthusiastproblems


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> 4k...ok. Again... resize it down. 1920x1080 should be fine.
> 
> This is not guru level knowledge.



When I resize I cannot get 1920 x 1080. It will only do 1920 x 1440.

This is why I chose 1680 x 1260. Its so a 1920 x 1080 screen will be able to view the whole picture. 

Default pixel resize is 4032 x 3024 when I open.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

Good to know. I will check it out...and sounds lime the OP should as well. 

i feel like im on AOL looking at some pics from newsgroups when i see screencaps...hahaha
r


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> When I resize I cannot get 1920 x 1080. It will only do 1920 x 1440.
> 
> This is why I chose 1680 x 1260. Its so a 1920 x 1080 screen will be able to view the whole picture.
> 
> Default pixel resize is 4032 x 3024 when I open.



Paint for dummies, if you must use it - here's a snipping tool at work for ya. Took all of five seconds


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Paint for dummies, if you must use it - here's a snipping tool at work for ya. Took all of five seconds
> 
> View attachment 96940



I'm doing the same shit, just pixels..


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> I'm doing the same shit, just pixels..



So uncheck the box to keep aspect ratio.


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> So uncheck the box to keep aspect ratio.



Ahh that's whats I was missing 

Thanks pal.

Edit: Righto, can I be part of the enthusiast forum now? : )

Anyways as I was saying, its still a pain in the arse having to resize the photos all the time. Really puts me off posting pictures here hey.



EarthDog said:


> Intel knows what they are doing. Id think if the paste broke down between die and ihs, your temps would have been a lot worse



You think so mate? I'm not so sure. The 4770k's I was testing were 10°C cooler than the 4790K at the same speed and volts. Thats bs. It was supposed to be manufactured for being cooler and OCing further.

What BS!


----------



## rtwjunkie (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Anyways as I was saying, its still a pain in the arse having to resize the photos all the time. Really puts me off posting pictures here hey.


Image Resizer is nearly as quick as Snip.  Simply right click, hit resize, then finished. Whatever your personal preference.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

If the TIM was separated, your temps would instantly skyrocket to 100C. The fact that you dropped around 10C tells me it was making acceptable contact as 10C  is about a 'normal' improvement. Its the samples which drop 20C where they were smashing Tjmax before that tells me it was making decent contact. 

I don't ever recall a mention of them being cooler... They use the same thermal paste IIRC...


----------



## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> If the TIM was separated, your temps would instantly skyrocket to 100C



My stock 4790K temps were 80°C on a custom loop (Screencaps pictured ) that you see in the picture. Its a 280mm rad cooling CPU only with 22°C ambient.

What would the stock heat sink do?? My guess it will overheat, no?


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

Every CPU is different man.. You could have a very leaky CPU which tends to run warmer (but loves sub ambient!!!). As I said, if the paste was making poor contact, your temps would be much worse.

As far as the stock cooler... it blows anyway, but should still keep that CPU under the throttling point. Its not 20C worse than a 2x140mm AIO. Your expectations are out of whack a bit.


----------



## Jetster (Feb 9, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> As noted above, it does not matter if the TIM dries. It is the solids that remain behind that do the heat transfer work while preventing insulating air from getting in those microscopic pits and valleys.
> 
> FTR, I use 91-93% Isopropyl alcohol to clean the mating surfaces. The typical Isopropyl alcohol is around 73-75%. The lower concentration will work, but often take a little more elbow grease. And the lower concentrate may leave a film too. That film probably causes no harm - but I don't like it. The higher concentrate is not always that easy to find but most pharmacies carry it.



Do yourself a favor. Try Artic Silver Artic Clean remover and purifier. I would have never believed how well it works.


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## peche (Feb 9, 2018)

@Outback Bronze , would like to ask, when delidded, how was TIM? seemed broken ? separated or miss-applied? 
your processor is not doing that bad, but could be doing better... 




Jetster said:


> Do yourself a favor. Try Artic Silver Artic Clean remover and purifier. I would have never believed how well it works.


well said, that product is amazing, pretty fashioned, but amazing,


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## mouacyk (Feb 9, 2018)

Case closed indeed.  Great work for science.

The stock TIM + gap was bad enough that only your custom loop was able to contain the temperature.  The stock heatsink would have throttled at some point.  It doesn't really pay to speculate how or why Intel did this or that now.  On OCN, we've been delidding CPUs since the I7-3770K in 2012 with reproducible results.  

There was a member (IDontKnow) who experimented with various replacement pastes, including toothpaste.  In the end, it was found that only reducing/eliminating the gap made a difference with just re-using the stock TIM.  However, eliminate the gap and throw in a liquid metal, and you're set for the best possible heat transfer.  A few brave souls even took the opportunity to run bare-die for an additional 5C improvement.


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## Folterknecht (Feb 9, 2018)

My experience with the UD5-BK from maybe 3 years back.

- selected components and built a system (UD5-BK + 4970K + good aftermarket cooler + 16GB RAM ...) for a local farmer who runs specialized software and hardware for his buisness (PCI add in card) - 24/7 operation
- checked everything and stress tested (Memtest, Prime, HDD read/write ... )
- not 5 minutes after starting Prime95 system shuts down because of overheating
- further investigation reveals cooler (Scythe Grand Kama Cross 2) is mounted properly and stock voltages (no OC because of use case) are way too high around 1.3V under load in windows (was BIOS F4 I think)
- updating to latest BIOS back than didn't change a thing
- so I spend a full day after that just making sure my dialed in voltage of 1.15V is fully stable with the temperature being where you would expect it (mid 70°C ) under Prime without delidding
- didn't have the time or the energy to find the undervolting limit for that particular chip.

Since then the system is running without issues.

--->>> GB fucked up (again) with their stock voltages. No 4790/4770K needs 1.3V load voltage to run stable at stock, fucking nonsense.


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 9, 2018)

Jetster said:


> Try Artic Silver Artic Clean remover and purifier. I would have never believed how well it works.


I have tried that and you are right, it works great. But so does 91% Isopropyl alcohol and a 32oz bottle costs just pennies in comparison, lasts much longer and it can be used to clean and sterilize many other things around the house and shop too. 

That specialized cleaner may be a little faster but it is uni-tasker. Isopropyl alcohol is not. The alcohol is also not a biohazard for your skin - in fact, its common name is "rubbing alcohol".

I use a cotton swab dipped in the alcohol. Then I dry and polish the surfaces with a small microfiber cloth, then a quick blast of compressed dusting gas just before applying new TIM and mounting the heatsink in case any last second dust decided to fall on the CPU die. Then I'm good to go.


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## Jetster (Feb 9, 2018)

Isopropyl Alcohol is a hazardous chemical. It's on the list. Flammable, toxic if shallowed and reactive. But it is cheap. I've even used acetone which is even worse


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 9, 2018)

Jetster said:


> Isopropyl Alcohol is a hazardous chemical.


What solvent, besides water, isn't? That Artic Silver Artic Clean remover and purifier is even more hazardous than Isopropyl alcohol. If you read the SDS datasheets, it is a:

Skin Irrit. 2 H315 Causes skin irritation.​Eye Irrit. 2A H319 Causes serious eye irritation.
Skin Sens. 1 H317 May cause an allergic skin reaction.
STOT SE 3 H335 May cause respiratory irritation.
Flam. Liq. 4 H227 Combustible liquid.​
All solvents should be treated with care and assumed to be hazardous. And yeah, Acetone is much worse and should never really be used indoors unless wearing a properly filtered respirator face mask - especially not inside a computer case with you leaning over it.


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## Vario (Feb 9, 2018)

I have a few bottles of arctic clean and 92% isopropyl, and 92% isopropyl works better for me.  Usually the arctic clean leaves a film behind, isopropyl removes that film, but if I use isopropyl from the start it removes the thermal paste and doesn't leave a film.  So I don't use the arctic clean anymore.


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## Outback Bronze (Feb 9, 2018)

peche said:


> would like to ask, when delidded, how was TIM?



I don't think it was broken. It still seemed to be making contact with the die. It was very dry tho. It just flaked off the back off the IHS when I had to clean it off.

Also, not one bit of TIM was left on the die when I delided. It all remained on the IHS. Basically I didn't even really need to clean the die of any TIM. Maybe it wasn't making very good contact in the end?

I find this extremely piss poor design by Intel for an apparently top dog K model CPU. Its only 3.5 years old..


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> Also, not one bit of TIM was left on the die when I delided. It all remained on the IHS. Basically I didn't even really need to clean the die of any TIM. Maybe it wasn't making very good contact in the end?


It is not uncommon for the TIM to stick to one surface and not another. It could, however, suggest the surface it did not stick to was not thoroughly clean - perhaps with some unseen residue film over it. Or it could just be smoother with fewer microscopic pits and valleys for the TIM to grip on too. As long as you are sure both surfaces are thoroughly clean now, I would say don't worry about it.


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## peche (Feb 9, 2018)

Outback Bronze said:


> I don't think it was broken. It still seemed to be making contact with the die. It was very dry tho. It just flaked off the back off the IHS when I had to clean it off.
> 
> Also, not one bit of TIM was left on the die when I delided. It all remained on the IHS. Basically I didn't even really need to clean the die of any TIM. Maybe it wasn't making very good contact in the end?
> 
> I find this extremely piss poor design by Intel for an apparently top dog K model CPU. Its only 3.5 years old..


actually makes sense, the temps you were having and this situation, when i delid, most processors have a little stick on it, then the rest to IHS, TIM was dusty? cuz might be a little hole in the adhesive layer, helped to dry it out, like a breath action, was hard to delid? or easier at some specific points, most i have done are harder at corners but easier in straight edges,


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## Upgrayedd (Feb 9, 2018)

1.189v @ stock well done. The stock voltage really is overkill.


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## EarthDog (Feb 9, 2018)

Its always dry.. that is normal.

People have this thing where they think when they see a dry flaky paste its bad. SOMETIMES this can be the case, but, too much blanket statement here....


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 10, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> People have this thing where they think when they see a dry flaky paste its bad.


I agree. And sadly, many then haphazardly zap their processors with ESD, or bend a CPU or socket pin due to mishandling when the best thing would have been to just leave it alone! Give it (the heatsink fan assembly) a blast of compressed air to clear it of dust and move on. 

The only time TIM needs to be replaced if it has dried is if the cured bond was broken. Otherwise, as stated before, the only reason TIM is in a fluid state to begin with is so you can squeeze it out of the tube and spread it out evenly.


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## mouacyk (Feb 10, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Its always dry.. that is normal.
> 
> People have this thing where they think when they see a dry flaky paste its bad. SOMETIMES this can be the case, but, too much blanket statement here....





Bill_Bright said:


> I agree. And sadly, many then haphazardly zap their processors with ESD, or bend a CPU or socket pin due to mishandling when the best thing would have been to just leave it alone! Give it (the heatsink fan assembly) a blast of compressed air to clear it of dust and move on.
> 
> The only time TIM needs to be replaced if it has dried is if the cured bond was broken. Otherwise, as stated before, the only reason TIM is in a fluid state to begin with is so you can squeeze it out of the tube and spread it out evenly.


That would be fine and dandy if the paste is the only problem.


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## EarthDog (Feb 10, 2018)

Nobody said it was the only problem. We are trying to clarify that many times a dry paste is actually quite normal. Ive seen it a lot on gpus, chipset heatsinks...etc. 

People seem to blindly believe dry is bad.


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 10, 2018)

mouacyk said:


> That would be fine and dandy if the paste is the only problem.


That goes without saying, don't you think? I did mention it has to be replaced "_if the cured bond was broken_". If something else was wrong, like the cooler's fan bearings seized and you needed to replace the cooler, then that bond would be broken to remove the old cooler. So the TIM would have to be replaced. 

The point is, as long as the cured bond remains intact, there is no need to replace the TIM because it has dried or because X number of years have passed. It does not wear out, or decompose. It can over extended periods of time lose a few degrees of effectiveness. But if you need those few degrees to prevent thermal protection features from kicking in, then you have other, more serious problems to deal with.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 10, 2018)

I usually use this at home  

In different ways


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 10, 2018)

95% alcohol? That will do it! Either that or you sure won't care!


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## Nuckles56 (Feb 10, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> I usually use this at home
> 
> In different ways
> 
> View attachment 97023


When someone gets a bottle of that out, you know the next morning is going to be bad


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## Bill_Bright (Feb 10, 2018)

I'm no newbie when it comes to drink, but I think after a few rounds of that stuff, not sure I would even wake the entire next day!


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## jboydgolfer (Feb 10, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Except... the snipping tool also automatically saves as jpeg / web friendly sizes and you can instantly copy/paste the snip to any application you want to use it in, without saving it somewhere. You can also make custom selections and screengrab anything you want instead of the whole screen..
> 
> Your three steps only get you into paint, next is resizing, saving, choosing format, location, etc etc etc
> 
> #Firstworldenthusiastproblems


 I also use the snipping tool. It seems like a lot of people overlook it but it's just easier in most cases. Plus it has a highlighter built in, so it's really easy to show the point you're trying to make


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