# Extremely Quick Thermal Paste Degradation, 15°C Increase - Bad Batch?



## Wet_Paint (Jul 28, 2018)

Approximately a month ago i "upgraded" all my thermal paste from MX-4 to Thermal Grizzly Hydronaut. Temperatures improved by approx. 3-5 degrees °C but after two to three weeks temperatures started to increase to much higher levels. 

*MX-4: 63-67°C while gaming
Hydronaut initially: 59-63°C while gaming
Hydronaut now: 74-82°C while gaming (Same game as test scenario, in identical place)

MX-4: 78-87°C in Cinebench
Hydronaut initially: 73-85°C in Cinebench
Hydronaut now: 94-97°C in Cinebench (4.7Ghz caused temps over 100°C and throttled, previously would go up to 90°C max)*

_All tests ran at 4.6Ghz 1.180V and Mesh at 3.2Ghz 1.1V, CPU InputV 1.84V, SysAgent 0.93V._

Even when Windows boots up the temps hover around the 70°C mark for like a minute and eventually goes down to 55-58°C (before 42-46°C).

Liquid in the watercooler is filled to the max, and Pump runs in range of 2930-2980RPM all the time.

Ambient temps 28-30°C, they are always high no matter what, as far as i can tell they didnt change much recently, definitely not a upto Δ15°C.

One of my GPUs is watercooled and has been repasted with Hydronaut too, temps originally ranged from 42 to 45°C max, now they go all the way up to 52°C.

When i first noticed these issues i took off the CPU cooler and the middle part had almost "factory new" look, perfectly clean on both CPU and the waterblock in the center and only small tracers of thermalpaste on the edges of the CPU. After applying more thermalpaste to the center of the CPU temperatures improved to "initial" temperatures but after about a day the temps started rising again so i added new thermal paste again which improved the temps back to initial values again but this time there was thermalpaste spread properly between the IHS and waterblock. I ran the PC in horizontal position for about 3 days and temps stayed abut the same, after putting PC into standard vertical positions the temperature degraded back to much higher levels in about a day and half. So i added smaller amount of thermal paste into the center of IHS again and the temps didnt improve this time at all. The biggest issue is that i dont think ive enough thermalpaste left for more than one re-apply. 

I've also tried 3 different motherboard BIOSes (v1201, v1301, v1401) and the temperatures were identical.

Temperatures on my laptop which i repasted too have increased by approx. 8°C over initial temps but my laptop has very low power parts. 



*Im sorry for a long post but my goal was to give you guys as much information as possible, thanks for any suggestions about how to decrease the temperature.*


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## Final_Fighter (Jul 28, 2018)

those temps are already on the high side to begin with. something isnt seated right, i would reapply the thermal paste again.


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## Wet_Paint (Jul 28, 2018)

Final_Fighter said:


> those temps are already on the high side to begin with. something isnt seated right, i would reapply the thermal paste again.


I did re-seat the waterblock & re-applied thermal paste like one hour before writing this post, literally no difference, maybe 1-2°C which i would consider margin of error since the PC was off while doing it and the liquid couldnt have reached stable temp. But thanks for suggestion, ig I'll have to do re-apply it again if i dont get any other suggestions but i doubt it will help, i also checked the waterblock's screws on the back of the motherboard and they were all evenly screwed. Tried even lifting the PC by the CPU waterblock and it didnt show any sign of being loose at all.


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## nomdeplume (Jul 28, 2018)

When in doubt send an email out?  To Thermal Grizzly and see what they reply.


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## John Naylor (Jul 29, 2018)

I'm not sure how 'all" relates to the test scenario.... assuming 1st test if GPU and 2nd CPU ?  And one GPU is water cooled,  the other isn't ?  Even using the same scenario, I wouldn't use a gaming test.

For CPU test I like to use Asus RoG Real Bench.  I have had p95 24 hour stable OCs fail under multi tasking stress tests like RB.  Most P95 busers will employ the older version of P95 so as to pose no danger to CPU but Im not comfy knowing my OC is stable only if mo modern instruction sets are used.  And since it uses real world applications , it actually lets you set the PC higher than a synthetic test would allow.

Since voltage isn't in the equation, anything you can set in MSI AB is safe, I'll use Furmark.  These insure that as I test the box at 3 month intervals its an insured  apples and apples comparison against the day 1 baseline.

As to the horizontal / vertical thing, this normally points to air in the loop which should not be an issue with a  CLC.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 29, 2018)

The cooler might've moved slightly,that's all it takes. reseat and reapply.Also, please note that ambient temps influence cpu/gpu temps very significantly.


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## enxo218 (Jul 29, 2018)

either the thermal paste is of poor quality or method of application is incorrect...I suspect the latter since there was initially an improvement on temperature reads but later began to degrade also this trend applies to all repasted devices even laptop. Clear all the paste off with alcohol and reapply


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## FireFox (Jul 29, 2018)

@Wet_Paint 

Did you forget that it's summer time?


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## Aquinus (Jul 29, 2018)

How sure are you that it's the thermal compound? Are you sure there isn't something weird going on with your liquid cooling loop that might impact the flow of liquid? How about the radiator(s), is there any dust? Coincidences happen but, I don't trust them.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 29, 2018)

Question your using an Eisbaer + Eiswolf>

Are GPU and CPU in the same loop with the 360 + 120 rad. If setup that way is the Eiswolf one of the models that includes a secondary pump? Meaning your loop has the original Eisbaer pump + a pump for the GPU block or are you using a single pump to push all that?

If your using the original eisbaer pump its only rated for 70l/hr or 0.30 Gallons per minute. That is the pumps rating now add 2 radiators + 2 blocks its likely a great deal lower than that. With that much strain on the pump I have to wonder if its beginning to break down.  There is a reason Alphacool has GPU blocks with built in pumps to help.


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## Wet_Paint (Jul 29, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> @Wet_Paint
> 
> Did you forget that it's summer time?


Yeah ik its summer *obviously* but my room is 26-30°C the whole year (multiple PCs in the room and brick walls with thermal isolation). Temps like these have been here literally for 2 months, i dont see reason why would the temp change now after all that time.



crazyeyesreaper said:


> Question your using an Eisbaer + Eiswolf>
> 
> Are GPU and CPU in the same loop with the 360 + 120 rad. If setup that way is the Eiswolf one of the models that includes a secondary pump? Meaning your loop has the original Eisbaer pump + a pump for the GPU block or are you using a single pump to push all that?
> 
> If your using the original eisbaer pump its only rated for 70l/hr or 0.30 Gallons per minute. That is the pumps rating now add 2 radiators + 2 blocks its likely a great deal lower than that. With that much strain on the pump I have to wonder if its beginning to break down.  There is a reason Alphacool has GPU blocks with built in pumps to help.



Yes they are both connected to the same loop and only CPU pump is running, i had to cut off the second pump cable bcuz it was interfering with motherboard's "TUF plastic shield" (idk what else to call it), it has been running like this for over a year, before i had this motherboard i tested the temps with both pumps and the temperature was identical. 



Aquinus said:


> How sure are you that it's the thermal compound? Are you sure there isn't something weird going on with your liquid cooling loop that might impact the flow of liquid? How about the radiator(s), is there any dust? Coincidences happen but, I don't trust them.



Well I used MX-4, MX-2, Alphacool stock one that came with the watercooler and all of them were "stable" temperature wise. I apply much more paste than average person does, it usually drips on the bracket which holds the CPU. I refill the loop every 90 days with destilled water so there shouldnt be any problems. Radiators were "de-dusted" with pressurized air like 3 weeks before any issues appeared, and they are dust free, just checked. 

When i applied the hydronaut for first time i manually spread it with my finger across the whole CPU (which is something i never did before so dont judge) and then added big blob right in the center, and 4 smaller blobs into each corner, then i spread the excess from my finger on the waterblock. 




UPDATE: So i didnt move my PC at all for about 24hrs (literally didnt move by even single milimeter) and the temperatures went down by +-5°C, ambient temperature is the same (around 30°C, using the same thermometer).

I cant take the cooler off right now since i'll be lucky if ill be able to re-paste it one more time and i keep that one "try" for the time when my Corsair 750D (the airflow edition) arrives on wednesday/thursday.

//Side-note: When i was re-applying the thermal paste last time i noticed "bulge" in center of the processor in shape of square, very slight one but it was visible mostly thanks to the thermal paste which formed "ring" around it. Also no matter in which order i screw the CPU waterblock screws in one always seems to be screwed in less than the others , which makes me feel like something could be bent between the CPU/waterblock. But this is probably really just me being paranoid.


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## Athlonite (Jul 29, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> I apply much more paste than average person does, it usually drips on the bracket which holds the CPU



By doing that you are defeating the whole purpose of thermal paste which is to fill in the tiny hills & valleys on the mated surfaces use to much and you end up with a thermal blanket



> When i applied the hydronaut for first time i manually spread it with my finger across the whole CPU (which is something i never did before so dont judge) and then added big blob right in the center, and 4 smaller blobs into each corner, then i spread the excess from my finger on the waterblock.



That is way to much thermal paste a thinly spread coating is all you need


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## TheGuruStud (Jul 30, 2018)

You're assuming the pump is working...we all know they're THE failure point. Idk about the other stuff. You'll have to reapply everything and see if they drop to your original values to know it's the paste. Damn scientific procedures...


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 30, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Yeah ik its summer *obviously* but my room is 26-30°C the whole year (multiple PCs in the room and brick walls with thermal isolation). Temps like these have been here literally for 2 months, i dont see reason why would the temp change now after all that time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With the second pump removed from the loop your basically limited to 70 l/h which is basically a best case scenario. In reality its probably closer to 50 and you have extra blocks and a non working pump to push fluid through. I am guessing its the single pump just working way to hard. Thats my guess tho having tested multiple AIO including expandable ones. Typically the low L/H and low head pressure designs just don't hold up well. its why as i said before Alphacool makes expansion systems for there loops with a pump built in. It maintains the typical flow rate you would expect. 

If temps skyrocket try squeezing the tubing off and on a few times. The pressure from the squeeze should help the pumps flow rate especially when your first boot up. Seen the issue with Alphacool products before when they released low wattage dual bay dual pump reservoirs.

At this point if the pump is working properly your flow rate is likely anemic. If the pump is on its way out then your looking at even further degraded performance.


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## Beertintedgoggles (Jul 30, 2018)

If you still have some MX-4 left, try applying it and verify that you get the same "before" temperatures.  That will rule out things such as mounting pressure, dust, fans, ambient, etc.


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## Athlonite (Jul 30, 2018)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> With the second pump removed from the loop your basically limited to 70 l/h which is basically a best case scenario. In reality its probably closer to 50 and you have extra blocks and a non working pump to push fluid through. I am guessing its the single pump just working way to hard. Thats my guess tho having tested multiple AIO including expandable ones. Typically the low L/H and low head pressure designs just don't hold up well. its why as i said before Alphacool makes expansion systems for there loops with a pump built in. It maintains the typical flow rate you would expect.
> 
> If temps skyrocket try squeezing the tubing off and on a few times. The pressure from the squeeze should help the pumps flow rate especially when your first boot up. Seen the issue with Alphacool products before when they released low wattage dual bay dual pump reservoirs.
> 
> At this point if the pump is working properly your flow rate is likely anemic. If the pump is on its way out then your looking at even further degraded performance.



Somehow I don't think it's a pump problem as it's the same setup as before but look at where he admits to overusing thermal compound .... _*I apply much more paste than average person does, it usually drips on the bracket which holds the CPU & When i applied the hydronaut for first time i manually spread it with my finger across the whole CPU (which is something i never did before so dont judge) and then added big blob right in the center, and 4 smaller blobs into each corner, then i spread the excess from my finger on the waterblock*_.

I'd say it's more a case of to much thermal compound rather than a flow problem


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## Wet_Paint (Jul 30, 2018)

Athlonite said:


> By doing that you are defeating the whole purpose of thermal paste which is to fill in the tiny hills & valleys on the mated surfaces use to much and you end up with a thermal blanket
> 
> 
> 
> That is way to much thermal paste a thinly spread coating is all you need


Im fully aware of that, i just didnt want to bother having to re-paste it if it was too little, so for sake of not wanting to re-do it i applied much more, i just didnt trust the "spread with finger" method.




crazyeyesreaper said:


> With the second pump removed from the loop your basically limited to 70 l/h which is basically a best case scenario. In reality its probably closer to 50 and you have extra blocks and a non working pump to push fluid through. I am guessing its the single pump just working way to hard. Thats my guess tho having tested multiple AIO including expandable ones. Typically the low L/H and low head pressure designs just don't hold up well. its why as i said before Alphacool makes expansion systems for there loops with a pump built in. It maintains the typical flow rate you would expect.
> 
> If temps skyrocket try squeezing the tubing off and on a few times. The pressure from the squeeze should help the pumps flow rate especially when your first boot up. Seen the issue with Alphacool products before when they released low wattage dual bay dual pump reservoirs.
> 
> At this point if the pump is working properly your flow rate is likely anemic. If the pump is on its way out then your looking at even further degraded performance.



I really appreciate your advices, but if the pump was too weak for the loop wouldnt there be some difference after connecting the second pump? I tried this many times and there was simply no improvement. And its basically impossible to bend the tubes to a point where they would stop the flow of the liquid, bcuz the tubes are wrapped in really hard metalic wire and pushing it too much is too risky, im worried about it snapping and cutting up the tube.

Also, would getting "proper" pump with >600L/hour help at this point? I know its easily said for someone who has a lot of experience in this but ive literally never connected any fully custom loop together and im really nervous about doing it especially if the money and risk could give zero improvement.



Beertintedgoggles said:


> If you still have some MX-4 left, try applying it and verify that you get the same "before" temperatures.  That will rule out things such as mounting pressure, dust, fans, ambient, etc.



I dont have any MX-4 left but ive the alphacool stock one, but it was really bad, i dont know if it would be any different from the "bad" temperatures ive now but *Ill try it tomorrow and post results as soon as possible.*




Athlonite said:


> Somehow I don't think it's a pump problem as it's the same setup as before but look at where he admits to overusing thermal compound .... _*I apply much more paste than average person does, it usually drips on the bracket which holds the CPU & When i applied the hydronaut for first time i manually spread it with my finger across the whole CPU (which is something i never did before so dont judge) and then added big blob right in the center, and 4 smaller blobs into each corner, then i spread the excess from my finger on the waterblock*_.
> 
> I'd say it's more a case of to much thermal compound rather than a flow problem



I dont have as much money and time as Steve from GN but his results show that it doesnt matter if its too much. 

“Too Much Thermal Paste” – Benchmark of Thermal Paste Quantity

But okay, ill remove all the paste, clean it off properly and ill apply just pea sized amount of thermalpaste in the center of the IHS.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 30, 2018)

if second pump does nothing then you likely have a pressure issue i would clean the thermal paste off, and use cheap stuff remount the blocks and see how the paste spreads via a single pea sized dot method. This will determine how well the paste is spreading and by extention determine how much mounting pressure is being exerted. higher mounting pressure you should see less paste with the copper base plate showing through. Hard to explain but try a mount with cheap paste then remove the block and take a picture.


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## RealNeil (Jul 30, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> //Side-note: When i was re-applying the thermal paste last time i noticed "bulge" in center of the processor in shape of square, very slight one but it was visible mostly thanks to the thermal paste which formed "ring" around it.


This isn't normal. It should be flat with tiny imperfections if any.


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## Vayra86 (Jul 30, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Yeah ik its summer *obviously* but my room is 26-30°C the whole year (multiple PCs in the room and brick walls with thermal isolation). Temps like these have been here literally for 2 months, i dont see reason why would the temp change now after all that time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What the hell man.

Why are you being so creative with your thermal compounds. You are literally creating your own potential issues... and making it MUCH harder to find the real problems.

Either use a big blob in the center (pea sized if you want to 'overdo it', a little more than a rice grain size if you're sensible) or use a plastic card or something like that to evenly spread a THIN layer across the whole surface - which means applying some good pressure during the process - again to prevent air bubbles from getting caught underneath. The latter is mostly useful when the CPU die is not dead center, ie for bigger (HEDT) chips and stuff with multiple chip solutions under the IHS.

There are no sensible other ways to do it without risking a bad mount. After a proper application and mount you can start worrying about your pump and WC solution.

'Using my finger'...lmao


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## Wet_Paint (Jul 30, 2018)

I repasted it with the alphacool paste which came in the box with the cooler, and did some test runs in Cinebench. Ran each test 3 times and waited 20 minutes after boot.

Hydronaut: 89-93°C, 91°C average, 30.0°C ambient
Alphacool #1: 88-91°C, 89°C average, 30.6°C ambient
Alphacool #2: 89-91°C, 90°C average, 31.6°C ambient





crazyeyesreaper said:


> if second pump does nothing then you likely have a pressure issue i would clean the thermal paste off, and use cheap stuff remount the blocks and see how the paste spreads via a single pea sized dot method. This will determine how well the paste is spreading and by extention determine how much mounting pressure is being exerted. higher mounting pressure you should see less paste with the copper base plate showing through. Hard to explain but try a mount with cheap paste then remove the block and take a picture.



Hope these pictures are good enough.



Edit: took a picture of the mounting screws, the remaining two look exactly like the one on the left, but the one on the right is impossible to "screw in fully", ive tried and even with a lot of pressure i couldnt move it even little bit, actually i stripped the screw(just a little bit, still can unscrew/screw it as usually but it has some wiggle room).


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 30, 2018)

That's bad coverage, seen almost the same picture on my 4790k when it started to heat up more than it used to before, just put a  big round drop in the center and try to apply the pressure slowly and evenly.


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## Ferrum Master (Jul 30, 2018)

shaite... are you replacing TIM on a running machine? The LED are glowing... it is on...


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## Wet_Paint (Jul 30, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> shaite... are you replacing TIM on a running machine? The LED are glowing... it is on...


The LEDs are on even if the PC is off. They usually run for +- 1-2 minutes after disconnecting the PC from the wall.



cucker tarlson said:


> That's bad coverage, seen almost the same picture on my 4790k when it started to heat up more than it used to before, just put a  big round drop in the center and try to apply the pressure slowly and evenly.


 
Gonna use more thermalpaste then but this will be probably the last application of that alphacool paste since its almost empty and i really need to save up the remaining hydronaut for when the 750D arrives.


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## Vya Domus (Jul 30, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> *Im sorry for a long post but my goal was to give you guys as much information as possible, thanks for any suggestions about how to decrease the temperature.*



Well first of all these Skylake-X CPU will imply run very hot due to their nature and the fact that they aren't soldered , that 4.7 Ghz overclock doesn't help your cause either.

That been said I have seen the pictures you posted with the TIM applied and nothing looks out of place to me. A blob in the middle is all you need to do , you can spread it however you want in a million different ways it will make no difference , this has been proven time and time again. To me it sounds like there is something wrong with the surface of the block or maybe even the IHS. Maybe the block isn't fully in place.



Wet_Paint said:


> took a picture of the mounting screws, the remaining two look exactly like the one on the left, but the one on the right is impossible to "screw in fully", ive tried and even with a lot of pressure i couldnt move it even little bit, actually i stripped the screw(just a little bit, still can unscrew/screw it as usually but it has some wiggle room).



I think you have your problem right there.



Wet_Paint said:


> Gonna use more thermalpaste then



Don't , it's enough.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 30, 2018)

Ferrum Master said:


> shaite... are you replacing TIM on a running machine? The LED are glowing... it is on...


Right? That's what I was just thinking.

@Wet_Paint 
Do you always apply thermal compound while the system is running? Thermal throttling or not, the temp spikes are going to hurt that CPU die. That might be your problem right there. Always, and I mean *ALWAYS*, unplug the PSU before working on a system. Better safe than sorry.


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## crazyeyesreaper (Jul 30, 2018)

Looking at the TIM spread its not awful however the bottom right could be better. It seems that somewhat knackered screw is resulting in less than optimal pressure on that side. Pressure means a great deal in terms of heat transfer. A good example is the Scythe Fuma cooler its a dual tower dual fan heatsink that was about $50 but was nearly in the same league as the Noctua NH-D15 and 240mm AIO coolers and that is because it had a much higher mounting pressure. Enough so it could cause the thinner PCBs on the newer CPUs from Intel to bend which was obviously a bad thing. However it did result in a cheaper cooler offering far more performance than it had any right to. So the issue could be a mounting pressure problem if the screws are not seating properly. Try turning the pump (change its mounting orientation and see if the problem screw goes all the way in on a different hole if not you may want to contact Alphacool about the mounting hardware. Another option is to use your hand and apply pressure on the problematic area by pushing on the bracket (not the screw) you can apply greater pressure and see if it makes a difference. At this point without physically being there I can't really help you any further than that. However I will note i have an AIO here from a different vendor different mounting hardware same problem. Performance was not what it should be. Traced it to bad threads took it apart and carefully got the hardware to fully seat outside the case. Then reintalled it. With full pressure on all 4 corners performance improved by about 3C under Aida64 FPU load (extreme torture test). 





Wet_Paint said:


> I repasted it with the alphacool paste which came in the box with the cooler, and did some test runs in Cinebench. Ran each test 3 times and waited 20 minutes after boot.
> 
> Hydronaut: 89-93°C, 91°C average, 30.0°C ambient
> Alphacool #1: 88-91°C, 89°C average, 30.6°C ambient
> ...


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## Wet_Paint (Jul 30, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Well first of all these Skylake-X CPU will imply run very hot due to their nature and the fact that they aren't soldered , that 4.7 Ghz overclock doesn't help your cause either.
> 
> That been said I have seen the pictures you posted with the TIM applied and nothing looks out of place to me. A blob in the middle is all you need to do , you can spread it however you want in a million different ways it will make no difference , this has been proven time and time again. To me it sounds like there is something wrong with the surface of the block or maybe even the IHS. Maybe the block isn't fully in place.
> 
> ...



I read the post after i repasted it, gave it tiny bit more and made the blop more round, now im out of alphacool paste and ive only one "re-paste" with hydronaut left.

While re-pasting it i checked all the nuts on the mounting screws and some of them got loose, tightened them up and all 4 mounting screws are now properly screwed in. Temperatures are still identical, zero difference outside of margin of error (-1°C avg).



lexluthermiester said:


> Right? That's what I was just thinking.
> 
> @Wet_Paint
> Do you always apply thermal compound while the system is running? Thermal throttling or not, the temp spikes are going to hurt that CPU die. That might be your problem right there. Always, and I mean *ALWAYS*, unplug the PSU before working on a system. Better safe than sorry.



Like i said the LEDs run for some time after the PSU is unplugged, I can even attempt to boot without PSU plugged in, fans start to spin up but quickly drain the PSU capacitors and turn off in about 1 second before POST completes.



crazyeyesreaper said:


> Looking at the TIM spread its not awful however the bottom right could be better. It seems that somewhat knackered screw is resulting in less than optimal pressure on that side. Pressure means a great deal in terms of heat transfer. A good example is the Scythe Fuma cooler its a dual tower dual fan heatsink that was about $50 but was nearly in the same league as the Noctua NH-D15 and 240mm AIO coolers and that is because it had a much higher mounting pressure. Enough so it could cause the thinner PCBs on the newer CPUs from Intel to bend which was obviously a bad thing. However it did result in a cheaper cooler offering far more performance than it had any right to. So the issue could be a mounting pressure problem if the screws are not seating properly. Try turning the pump (change its mounting orientation and see if the problem screw goes all the way in on a different hole if not you may want to contact Alphacool about the mounting hardware. Another option is to use your hand and apply pressure on the problematic area by pushing on the bracket (not the screw) you can apply greater pressure and see if it makes a difference. At this point without physically being there I can't really help you any further than that. However I will note i have an AIO here from a different vendor different mounting hardware same problem. Performance was not what it should be. Traced it to bad threads took it apart and carefully got the hardware to fully seat outside the case. Then reintalled it. With full pressure on all 4 corners performance improved by about 3C under Aida64 FPU load (extreme torture test).



Even tho the nut wasnt properly tightened the spring on the other side gave it enough force. The only thing it improved were random temperature spikes when idle, which went down by couple degrees.


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## John Naylor (Jul 30, 2018)

1.  You are experiencing a problem common to all CLCs in that the rated pump flow is on;y a fcartion of a gpm.... for custom loops, the minimum is considered 1,0 to 1.25 ... more doesn't help but less does.  And that rated 0.3 is w/o all the extra tubing, fittings for the GPU so it's far less than the rated flow.

2.  Marketing types love to play with numbers.  When a package reads 0.30 gpm / 2.0 psi that doesn't mean what it says ... it means it can produce 0.30 gpm @ 0 plsi and 0 gpm at 2 psi in marketing speak.  So the reality is you are likely down around 0.1 to 0.15 gpm at best.

3.a  If I understood correctly, you have a Open Loop type AIO with a GFX card cooler designed to be connected together and using 2 pumps.    I don't understand where / how the NH-D15 fits in.  What type of bleed mechanism did you employ and what procedure did you employ to remove air and "off gasses" ?  Without doing so, there will be air trapped in the system which will inhibit flow.  In a custom loop, the best method is to install a rider on one of the spare rad ports on the top side of the top rad.  If the rad has no spre ports, one mist install a tee at the highest point in the loop with the branch side pointing up.   Here one can attach a valve and a rigid acrylic tube with valve on top.  Tilt the system as necessary to have the tee at the highest point, fill the tube 90% of the way and close the valve .  Typically as the fluid traverses the loop, air / gas will come out of solution or any bubbles that would have formed will collect on the tube and you will have a visible drop in the water level in the tube.  Shut down the system, open the valve and top off as necessary, rinse and repeat.   Not that any high points in the system may have trapped air.... you will need to work these out by bending tubing or tilting the system.

3.b  Not using the 2nd pump presents a significant flow restrictiion as pump 1 is being forced to spin the 2nd's pump and motor

4.  While not optimal, there's nothing terribly wrong with your application method.  However, introducing finger oils to the TIM is a bad idea.  You can use a plastic glove ot some TIMs (i.e. Gelid) come with an application "spatula",  However once spread around (smoothly spread method came in 2nd place in 2nd link) , use a plastic credit or hotel lock card to scrape off the excess, leaving behind only the stuff that is left in nooks and crannies.  This method is often used on HDT type coolers after the two line application method is used.  What method you use depends upon the cooler / block type.

https://archive.benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=170&Itemid=4
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Thermal-Paste-Application-Techniques-170/

5.  Note that many blocks are designed to prevent overtightening by including a "stop" mechanism ... you screw them down till you can't go any more w/o abnormal pressure.  Try and go beyond this point and you will strip or break the screw.  It also allows for absolutely even contact pressure.

6.  Other than Ivy Bridge, I have not encountered an Intel CPU that requires delidding to reach the highest OC using custom water cooling or OLC type AIOs.  

I don't see this being resolved w/o addressing the problems above  .  I know money is tight, but ultimately there are a whole lot of deficiencies to overcome.  While I applaud AC for producing a AIO w/ a copper rad, going cheap on the pump was abad idea.  Yes it saves money but that is immediately offset when you have to add a pump for the GFX card.  AFAIK, Swiftech and EK are making the only AIOs that both provide all copper systems (not sure about the GFX system) and provide a pump with the necessary flow capacity to adequately do water cooling.  The EK system is the only one that doesn't (theoretically) require bleeding.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Jul 30, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> 1.  You are experiencing a problem common to all CLCs in that the rated pump flow is on;y a fcartion of a gpm.... for custom loops, the minimum is considered 1,0 to 1.25 ... more doesn't help but less does.  And that rated 0.3 is w/o all the extra tubing, fittings for the GPU so it's far less than the rated flow.
> 
> 2.  Marketing types love to play with numbers.  When a package reads 0.30 gpm / 2.0 psi that doesn't mean what it says ... it means it can produce 0.30 gpm @ 0 plsi and 0 gpm at 2 psi in marketing speak.  So the reality is you are likely down around 0.1 to 0.15 gpm at best.
> 
> ...



3.a The NH-D15 is in completely different system. Its really difficult to bleed the system, so i usually do it in parts. I open the "plug" on CPU waterblock and only other "hole" which is on GPU Rad. This causes most of the liquid to shoot out of the lower positioned "hole". Then i just fill the rest with destilled water, liquid seems clean but there are occasionaly "oils spots" on top of the liquid if that makes any sense. When refilling the only way i can make sure its fully filled is when I run the whole system (in BIOS), lay it on its side, open the CPU waterblock hole and pour destilled water into it. There is no better way to refill this thing, but i dont mind. I sometimes do this multiple times, changing the position of the radiators and pump until there is no "watery" sound when wiggling them. 

3.b Like i said, i tested it, tried all combinations CPU/GPU pump, X/GPU, CPU/X and all were completely identical. 

4. interesting articles, ill definetly try the X method if get new thermal paste.

5. yes there are springs in each mounting screw which prevent overtightening

6. Given the right cooling the CPU can hit 5Ghz @ 1.32V without throttling (without delid) but i had to drop my ambient temperature to -5°C to achieve that.
I didnt buy this as "cheap" option, at the time there wasnt anything else avaible, only this or CLCs. Even now the avaibility of such parts is close to none. Literally only one shop has EKWB radiators and they are all sold out, and they have only two variants avaible, 280mm and 360mm. And SwiftTech doesnt sell anything at all in my country.

To be honest i guess ill just start saving up for new 280mm rad and pump while ill keep the waterblocks as they are.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 30, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Like i said the LEDs run for some time after the PSU is unplugged, I can even attempt to boot without PSU plugged in, fans start to spin up but quickly drain the PSU capacitors and turn off in about 1 second before POST completes.


Yeah saw that, you posted it right before I posted. Still after unplugging the PSU, press the system power button to drain all the capacitors in the system. You don't want that voltage leaking/shorting to other parts potentially causing damage.


----------



## Durvelle27 (Jul 31, 2018)

Your coverage is pretty pad in the center of the IHS which is what generates the most heat due to the CPU die being in the center 
If pea size isn’t working for you, you could do a X with the TIM and ally even pressure on the cooler to spread the TIM


----------



## Wet_Paint (Jul 31, 2018)

Durvelle27 said:


> Your coverage is pretty pad in the center of the IHS which is what generates the most heat due to the CPU die being in the center
> If pea size isn’t working for you, you could do a X with the TIM and ally even pressure on the cooler to spread the TIM



Did some research, Skylake-X chips arent "flat", the middle of the CPU is bit taller, kinda explains why the thermal paste just slides to the less tall part of the CPU.

Source (der8auer vid)


As for my problem there doesnt seem to be any other solution than just saving some money for better pump and more radiators to improve the temperature.


----------



## sepheronx (Jul 31, 2018)

This is one of many reasons I avoid liquid cooling.

Please update us when/if you get a new pump and radiator please.  Would like to know if it fixes your issue.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Jul 31, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> This is one of many reasons I avoid liquid cooling.
> 
> Please update us when/if you get a new pump and radiator please.  Would like to know if it fixes your issue.



Aios are what the pain is.


----------



## Aquinus (Jul 31, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Aios are what the pain is.


Speak for yourself, my H100i v2 works fine.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Aug 16, 2018)

UPDATE: So i managed to get official "expansion kit" for eisbaer for really cheap. It was pre-filled 280mm (30mm thick) radiator with fittings and quick-disconnect connectors. After i connected in into the loop the temperatures improved but only for the GPU (decrease by approx 5-8°C) but the CPU is about the same. I tried having only the CPU block and radiators in the loop but the results were identical.

I even tried two different orders of components in the loop: 
CPU → 120mm → 280mm → GPU → 360mm →
and
CPU → 120mm → GPU → 280mm → 360mm → 
but the temperatures were identical.

This is still with the "bad" hydronaut, there was more than i predicted so i was able to do full "X" on the CPU.

Also im considering getting _XSPC Ion Pump/Reservoir _in the future. Would that be fine? Im concerned that it might cause some issues since there would be two pumps in the loop with different flow rate (70 L/h and 420 L/h).

Do you guys have any other ideas what could cause this problem other than the thermal paste?


----------



## micropage7 (Aug 17, 2018)

have you checked the contact area between processor and the heatsink?


----------



## Komshija (Aug 17, 2018)

Bad mount, defected cooler base, greasy CPU lid or greasy cooler base.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Sep 23, 2018)

UPDATE: After replacing the thermal paste the temperatures didnt improve much. Later I flushed my loop and refilled it with distilled water, the temperatures were really good right after flushing, about 15°C drop (low 30s) at idle and 20-25°C drop (mid 80s) during load, the temperatures werent as good as when the loop was new but it wasnt that far off. 

The next day my temperatures went to 50-60°C idle and +105°C under load. During that time i didnt even move the PC physically or made any alterations, just turned the PC off. 

Ive also noticed abnormal CPU Pump RPM. According to the manufacturer the pump is supposed to run at 2600RPM. My pump is running at 3250-3350 RPM, before the latest flushing it was running at +- 2900RPM. My friend has a similiar loop with the same pump and he is getting about 2700RPM. 
*Is this a sign of dying pump?*


----------



## Vya Domus (Sep 23, 2018)

At his point I would try another cooler. Anything, doesn't matter just to see if the temperatures modify over time and then you can sort out that the cooler is indeed the problem and not the paste or whatever.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 23, 2018)

Are you certain that there isn't anything gunking up the blocks or radiator? It sounds like flow rate starts good but, gradually [quickly] gets worse.

The thing with it getting better immediately after flushing the liquid makes me think that there might be something obstructing liquid flow. If the RPM of the pump is increasing, it's possible that the impeller could be damaged but, that doesn't explain why it starts good and gets bad over time unless it's a combination of something gunked up and a damaged impeller. It's possible that flushing the loop might be un-gunking enough to operate properly but, only for it to get gunked back up after a little while.

I guess a question I would have is, what kind of coolant have you run in this loop? Has it only been filled with distilled water plus maybe some additive or have you used something like a colored coolant before? I've heard horror stories of colored coolant gunking up loops.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Sep 23, 2018)

try disabling the specter and meltdown patches. seriously. download inspecter,disable then restart (not shut down-power on,restart).

my temps dropped by 10 degrees.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Sep 23, 2018)

cucker tarlson said:


> try disabling the specter and meltdown patches. seriously. download inspecter,disable then restart (not shut down-power on,restart).
> 
> my temps dropped by 10 degrees.


Ive disabled those months ago. (still disabled, just checked)



Aquinus said:


> Are you certain that there isn't anything gunking up the blocks or radiator? It sounds like flow rate starts good but, gradually [quickly] gets worse.
> 
> The thing with it getting better immediately after flushing the liquid makes me think that there might be something obstructing liquid flow. If the RPM of the pump is increasing, it's possible that the impeller could be damaged but, that doesn't explain why it starts good and gets bad over time unless it's a combination of something gunked up and a damaged impeller. It's possible that flushing the loop might be un-gunking enough to operate properly but, only for it to get gunked back up after a little while.
> 
> I guess a question I would have is, what kind of coolant have you run in this loop? Has it only been filled with distilled water plus maybe some additive or have you used something like a colored coolant before? I've heard horror stories of colored coolant gunking up loops.



Yesterday I spent about 4 hours total flushing each radiator 3 times (the 360mm one 5times). The liquid always came out clear with nothing in it except for the initial bleed of the loop, which was little bit white and with smaller-than-sand-sized copper "bits".
I should also mention that some of the "quick disconnects" are unable to be disconnected anymore, no idea why, i hope it doesnt mean that they are corroded by algae. 

For first year the loop was used only with the pre-filled unknown liquid. After it started making wierd noises (similar to car being unable to start) and the liquid level decreasing i just kept topping it off with distilled water without any additives. Currently its on only distilled water with nothing in it.

When playing the temperatured seemed stable between 60-70°C for first two hours but over the span of next hour started going to 70s and even peaking in 80s. Taking the CPU waterblock/reservoir/pump combo and turning it upside down seems to have reduced the temperatures by 7-10°C but i expect it to rise again eventually and even now cinebench run will cause the CPU to throttle even at 4.5ghz.




Vya Domus said:


> At his point I would try another cooler. Anything, doesn't matter just to see if the temperatures modify over time and then you can sort out that the cooler is indeed the problem and not the paste or whatever.


The only other cooler that i could try is the NH-D15. Not sure if such a cooler would be able to handle 7820X at reasonable clocks but if the temperature "degrades" even more then i guess ill have to try it.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Sep 23, 2018)

d15 will do fine


----------



## Wet_Paint (Sep 23, 2018)

My temps when gaming went up to 96°C most of them time around 89°C, so i changed the cooler to NH-D15, 95°C in cinebench but 50s when gaming with no temperature spikes and the temperature "variance" was extremely small, about 6°C at most, with the watercooling it was >15°C.

Single GPU was still in the loop with pump running and all three radiators connected and it still reached 50°C after couple minutes of gaming.

Im fairly certain that its probably the pump, i just hope i can re-use the CPU waterblock, but what do you guys think?


----------



## zenlaserman (Sep 23, 2018)

Greetings fellow Bohemian (my family came to US in the 1890s)!  Having read this thread up to this point, here's my observations:

1) You were using too much TIM.  It appears you may have that fixed now, but just for reference, roughly 1x15-20mm is a fine line.
-Less is more!

2) You are using way too many radiators.  I'm no expert in hydrodynamics, but I've worked on automotive cooling systems often.
-That funny car-starting sound you heard was all the air finally bleeding out of your system.  Now you have a lot more resistance.
-Your pump likely aint up to all the superfluous 180 degree turns.  Try removing the 120 and 240.  Or 120 and 360.  Run just 1 radiator.

Snad to pomůže!


----------



## Vya Domus (Sep 23, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> My temps when gaming went up to 96°C most of them time around 89°C, so i changed the cooler to NH-D15, 95°C in cinebench but 50s when gaming with no temperature spikes and the temperature "variance" was extremely small, about 6°C at most, with the watercooling it was >15°C.



So there you have it, something is wrong with your watercooling setup, probably something to do with the pump as you are thinking, I am not an expert. But we've concluded there is nothing wrong with the paste and there is nothing weird with the CPU itself. Should have done that from the beginning, would have saved a lot time.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Sep 24, 2018)

zenlaserman said:


> Greetings fellow Bohemian (my family came to US in the 1890s)!  Having read this thread up to this point, here's my observations:
> 
> 1) You were using too much TIM.  It appears you may have that fixed now, but just for reference, roughly 1x15-20mm is a fine line.
> -Less is more!
> ...


Thanks (or should i say Děkuji) for the advices. I've started using a lot less thermal paste after this "experience" so i think i got that covered now and that "car sound" was basically constant, the only way to get rid of it was opening the reservoir with running system and "overfilling" it as the surface level of the liquid would always go down when the system was on. Even this solution worked only for couple days, requiring another overfilling to fix it again. Ive actually tried running with less components in the loop but the results were identical, i think the damage was already done. 



Vya Domus said:


> So there you have it, something is wrong with your watercooling setup, probably something to do with the pump as you are thinking, I am not an expert. But we've concluded there is nothing wrong with the paste and there is nothing weird with the CPU itself. Should have done that from the beginning, would have saved a lot time.


Now that i look back at it i wouldve done stuff differently, this was definetly learning exprience for me as this is my first proper "custom loop".


*Conclusion: *I would like to thank to all of you for your advices. I'll save up some money and buy _EK-XRES 100 SPC60 _and I'll pray that it will solve this issue once and for all.



_*I guess the thread can be closed, no idea how it works.... maybe some moderator will notice?_


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Thanks (or should i say Děkuji) for the advices. I've started using a lot less thermal paste after this "experience" so i think i got that covered now and that "car sound" was basically constant, the only way to get rid of it was opening the reservoir with running system and "overfilling" it as the surface level of the liquid would always go down when the system was on. Even this solution worked only for couple days, requiring another overfilling to fix it again. Ive actually tried running with less components in the loop but the results were identical, i think the damage was already done.
> 
> 
> Now that i look back at it i wouldve done stuff differently, this was definitely learning experience for me as this is my first proper "custom loop".
> ...


I would say buy a better/more powerful pump rather than removing a radiator.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 15, 2018)

Update: So i got EK XRES 100 pump (450L/h) + reservoir combo, it eventually improved the temperature but again only for a short while. I thought that the flow couldve been restricted by the quick disconnects that couldnt be fully screwed in so i replaced them by female-to-female G1/4" fittings, this didnt effect temperatures at all. 

Next i tried disconnecting the CPU block pump and using only the EK one in "reverse flow". This improved the temperatures by 20°C (still worse than NH-D15, which is ridiculous since its _120mm x 45mm + 360mm x 30mm + 280mm x 30mm_). I tried running only the EKWB pump before (non-reversed) and it was the same as running both (→bad). 

Any ideas of what could be wrong with my loop?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 15, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Update: So i got EK XRES 100 pump (450L/h) + reservoir combo, it eventually improved the temperature but again only for a short while. I thought that the flow couldve been restricted by the quick disconnects that couldnt be fully screwed in so i replaced them by female-to-female G1/4" fittings, this didnt effect temperatures at all.
> 
> Next i tried disconnecting the CPU block pump and using only the EK one in "reverse flow". This improved the temperatures by 20°C (still worse than NH-D15, which is ridiculous since its _120mm x 45mm + 360mm x 30mm + 280mm x 30mm_). I tried running only the EKWB pump before (non-reversed) and it was the same as running both (→bad).
> 
> Any ideas of what could be wrong with my loop?


Are you sure your blocks are clean and free of oxidation?


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 15, 2018)

lexluthermiester said:


> Are you sure your blocks are clean and free of oxidation?


Clean 100% yes, free of oxidation? if u mean if there is no air in them then yes, i did my best, i had them all individually filled (each radiator) outside the case, shaked them to determine if they have air in them, flipped them upside down many times and then if the water was still at the top of the tube then i put them back together. Even after doing that i was adding even more liquid to the reservoir on the CPU block and later added the reserovoir/pump which is basically still almost full. I dont know about any better way to get rid of the air.

Edit: After changing the flow orientation the maximum GPU temperature over two hours of playing was 38°C, most of the time at 36°C with jumps to 37°C.  This leads me to think that there is issue not with the flow but something in the CPU block, the radiators were actually really cold.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 17, 2018)

Update: Took the whole loop outside the system (in one piece), having only the pump powering the loop, while having it running i checked all the raidators (shaked and flipped them while checking if it makes any sounds or if the weight distribution change) and all i got out of it was +- 40ml of air. I checked the "window" on the CPU waterblock and it looks like there are some sort of white particles stuck on the "window" in a place where the lower "chamber" and the upper "chamber" are connected in exact pattern of the support thats between lower and upper "chamber". GPU still reaches peak 38°C, meanwhile CPU throttles at >90°C at stock (4,0Ghz 1.02V). 

At this point i dont think it could be anything other than the CPU block itself, but maybe im not seeing the full picture.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 17, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> At this point i dont think it could be anything other than the CPU block itself, but maybe im not seeing the full picture.



Which CPU block you are using?


----------



## Durvelle27 (Oct 18, 2018)

That seems really werid
Could it be improper mounting


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 18, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Which CPU block you are using?


this one: https://www.alphacool.com/shop/cpu-cooler/intel-amd/20228/alphacool-eisbaer-solo-2600rpm-black it was part of a pre-made set, all filled up and connected. If you look closer in the first picture there is white star shaped "thing". If i reverse the liquid flow white spots will start appearing on the "window" in a pattern of that star thingy.  Putting the flow back to normal sucks theses particles back into the lower chamber without window. 



Durvelle27 said:


> That seems really werid
> Could it be improper mounting


I've had this mount on for long time on my 5820K without any issues, even with this CPU it was fine half a year ago. Since im using only X99/X299 i literally just need to screw in the 4 long screws which are held in by thick metalic parts that can be put in orientation (at least on intel CPUs). There is nothing that could go wrong. I recently took it apart and put back with no difference.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> this one: https://www.alphacool.com/shop/cpu-cooler/intel-amd/20228/alphacool-eisbaer-solo-2600rpm-black it was part of a pre-made set, all filled up and connected. If you look closer in the first picture there is white star shaped "thing". If i reverse the liquid flow white spots will start appearing on the "window" in a pattern of that star thingy. Putting the flow back to normal sucks theses particles back into the lower chamber without window.



Is it possible to change the block?


----------



## Durvelle27 (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> this one: https://www.alphacool.com/shop/cpu-cooler/intel-amd/20228/alphacool-eisbaer-solo-2600rpm-black it was part of a pre-made set, all filled up and connected. If you look closer in the first picture there is white star shaped "thing". If i reverse the liquid flow white spots will start appearing on the "window" in a pattern of that star thingy.  Putting the flow back to normal sucks theses particles back into the lower chamber without window.
> 
> 
> I've had this mount on for long time on my 5820K without any issues, even with this CPU it was fine half a year ago. Since im using only X99/X299 i literally just need to screw in the 4 long screws which are held in by thick metalic parts that can be put in orientation (at least on intel CPUs). There is nothing that could go wrong. I recently took it apart and put back with no difference.


There is something that can go wrong 

Over fighting the block


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 18, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Is it possible to change the block?


Technically yes, but only by cutting the tubes. None of the Pre-installed G1/4" fittings will come loose, they are most likely glued in. So once i cut it off there is no way to make it work again because i wont be able to connect it. When i tried to open it with high amount of force the plastic around started to bend a little bit and from the place where the G1/4" connect to the block came out something i could describe as fairly hard white glue/plastic.



Durvelle27 said:


> There is something that can go wrong
> 
> Over fighting the block


Not really as the springs compress so much that screw cant overtighten.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Technically yes, but only by cutting the tubes. None of the Pre-installed G1/4" fittings will come loose, they are most likely glued in. So once i cut it off there is no way to make it work again because i wont be able to connect it. When i tried to open it with high amount of force the plastic around started to bend a little bit and from the place where the G1/4" connect to the block came out something i could describe as fairly hard white glue/plastic.



Would something like this work?


----------



## Durvelle27 (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Technically yes, but only by cutting the tubes. None of the Pre-installed G1/4" fittings will come loose, they are most likely glued in. So once i cut it off there is no way to make it work again because i wont be able to connect it. When i tried to open it with high amount of force the plastic around started to bend a little bit and from the place where the G1/4" connect to the block came out something i could describe as fairly hard white glue/plastic.
> 
> 
> Not really as the springs compress so much that screw cant overtighten.


You’d be surprised 

I had a block that would over tighten even with springs in place

And when you tighten do you do it in a cross config


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 18, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Would something like this work?
> 
> View attachment 108907



I guess, yeah, as long as it fits LGA2011/2066. Whats the full name of the waterblock? I could find many similiar ones.



Durvelle27 said:


> You’d be surprised
> 
> I had a block that would over tighten even with springs in place
> 
> And when you tighten do you do it in a cross config



I always start screwing them in in cross pattern just so they can barely hold in and then i screw them in fully in cross pattern once again.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> I guess, yeah, as long as it fits LGA2011/2066. Whats the full name of the waterblock? I could find many similiar



EK Supremacy Evo 

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-supremacy-evo-gold


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 18, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> EK Supremacy Evo
> 
> https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-supremacy-evo-gold



Looks great but it seems old, these are from 2012? 
Wont the gold plating cause any problems?
And what about the price? 
EK products here are relatively cheap, new EK Supremacy (for LGA115X/2011/2066 only) is less than 50€ and new universal one +- 65€.


----------



## FireFox (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Looks great but it seems old, these are from 2012?
> Wont the gold plating cause any problems?
> And what about the price?
> EK products here are relatively cheap, new EK Supremacy (for LGA115X/2011/2066 only) is less than 50€ and new universal one +- 65€.



Many people uses that block including myself, i have been using it for many years and i never had any problem, great product.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Oct 18, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Many people uses that block including myself, i have been using it for many years and i never had any problem, great product.


For a second there i assumed you had spare one trying to sell it, my bad. I guess ill go with the EKWB Supremacy MX (intel only version: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-supremacy-mx), there is no difference (in performance) compared to the other ones, just the mounting mechanism, right?


----------



## FireFox (Oct 18, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> there is no difference (in performance) compared to the other ones, just the mounting mechanism, right?



That is right.


----------



## Wet_Paint (Nov 14, 2018)

Update: Yesterday i got my Supremacy MX. Instalation was horrible but the temperatures are really really good, idling in low 20s, ingame temps about mid 50s, under cinebench load about 70-80°C, thats at 4.7Ghz.

I was curious and i took apart the alphacool CPU block and what i found was really shocking for me.

Is this galvanic corrosion or just a lot of gunk that got cought in the tightest part of the loop? How does this even happen? Did alphacool prefill these with just distilled water without any anti-bacterial stuff?


----------



## Vario (Nov 14, 2018)

Those temperatures with the Supremacy MX that you now have seem acceptable.

I can't really tell if its algae or corrosion from the photo.  What does it look like after you clean it? If its still nasty looking its corrosion and if it wipes out its probably algae.


----------



## FireFox (Nov 14, 2018)

Vario said:


> I can't really tell if its algae or corrosion



Maybe i am mistaken but it looks like corrosion
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Wet_Paint said:


> I was curious and i took apart the alphacool CPU block and what i found was really shocking for me.



For how long did you use that CPU Block?


----------



## Wet_Paint (Nov 15, 2018)

Vario said:


> Those temperatures with the Supremacy MX that you now have seem acceptable.
> 
> I can't really tell if its algae or corrosion from the photo.  What does it look like after you clean it? If its still nasty looking its corrosion and if it wipes out its probably algae.


Tried cleaning it but it wont come off (tried isopropyl alcohol too) but after lightly scratching the surface with screwdriver it almost immediately exposed the copper underneath. From the center hole of the block i was able to dig out something that looks like roots of plant about 1cm long with many smaller roots attached.



Knoxx29 said:


> Maybe i am mistaken but it looks like corrosion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ive this CPU block since January 2017. It was using the "stock" liquid until Q2 2018 until then i only added distilled water to the the reservoir since opening these quick disconnects always causes small leak.


EDIT: I should also note that after i replaced the liquid with distilled water and Mayhems X1 i was finally able to unscrew G1/4" fittings with ease, before using this liquid it was impossible. After further inspection it didnt seem like it was held in by any sort of glue or anything.


----------



## FireFox (Nov 15, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> I was curious and i took apart the alphacool CPU block and what i found was really shocking for me, How does this even happen? i only added distilled water to the reservoir



Maybe the distilled water you added?


----------



## Vario (Nov 15, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Tried cleaning it but it wont come off (tried isopropyl alcohol too) but after lightly scratching the surface with screwdriver it almost immediately exposed the copper underneath. From the center hole of the block i was able to dig out something that looks like roots of plant about 1cm long with many smaller roots attached.
> 
> 
> Ive this CPU block since January 2017. It was using the "stock" liquid until Q2 2018 until then i only added distilled water to the the reservoir since opening these quick disconnects always causes small leak.
> ...


If its copper then try using ketchup and a toothbrush.  Ketchup cleans copper really well.  Of course, clean the ketchup off with first soap and water and lastly isopropyl.


----------



## FireFox (Nov 15, 2018)

Vario said:


> Try using ketchup and a toothbrush








Sorry i couldn't resist


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## Wet_Paint (Nov 15, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Maybe the distilled water you added?


These small "re-fill-ments" that i did couldnt have been more than 100ml over the whole time, usually even 5ml was enough to fill it back up. Plus over time as i added new radiators they were also pre-filled with their liquid so the effect of the added distilled water should be even smaller. But as far as i can remember the liquid in it was pure and looking like water, even before i did anything with it as the reservoir has quite huge window. 



Vario said:


> If its copper then try using ketchup and a toothbrush.  Ketchup cleans copper really well.  Of course, clean the ketchup off with first soap and water and lastly isopropyl.


Thanks for the advice, ill remember this for future events but im really not looking to "fix" the old waterblock, the pump is almost dead and the "fins" barely covered half of the IHS. 

Im really just trying to find out if i should look more into it for some extra protection, i checked the technical details of the 360mm rad and 280mm, both state copper but the XT45 120mm radiator seems bit odd as the site describes it as "Material internal: Mostly copper ". I really dont know what to think after seeing that to be honest. I dont want the same thing to happen to my Supremacy MX block.
Source: https://www.alphacool.com/shop/radi...acool-nexxxos-xt45-full-copper-120mm-radiator


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## Vario (Nov 15, 2018)

Knoxx29 said:


> Sorry i couldn't resist


It cleans copper really well, trust me.

You could use Antifreeze and distilled water mixture that was used back in the day, I believe the automotive antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors in addition to polyethlyene glycol, I think it was 20% PEG antifreeze to 80% distilled water mixture but I could be wrong.  This was from like 15 years ago when I fooled with watercooling.


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## DR4G00N (Nov 15, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> but the XT45 120mm radiator seems bit odd as the site describes it as "Material internal: Mostly copper ".


The majority of radiators use copper fins and tubes with brass end caps or just copper fins and brass tubes & end caps. Though I believe the XT45's are all copper.


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## Wet_Paint (Nov 15, 2018)

DR4G00N said:


> The majority of radiators use copper fins and tubes with brass end caps or just copper fins and brass tubes & end caps. Though I believe the XT45's are all copper.


After further inspection i found out that the 120mm radiator isnt exactly the same as the one on their site. It has only one "hole" with plastic screw-in plug, dimensions and appearence are exactly the same. I couldnt find anything like this anywhere on their site. 

If all parts are made from copper then the corrosion cant happen, right?


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## FireFox (Nov 15, 2018)

Vario said:


> It cleans copper really well, trust me.



40 Years old and i am still learning new things  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Wet_Paint said:


> If all parts are made from copper then the corrosion cant happen, right?



It should be that way

https://www.overclock.net/forum/61-water-cooling/1463989-corrosion-water-cooling-components.html


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## John Naylor (Nov 15, 2018)

It's hard to tell from the pic as the plate appears to block view of the channels.  Here's a pic of an extreme case

https://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/copperaluminumcorrosion.jpeg

On  aside note, the owner of Mayhems can tend to be a bit explosive and has agressively commented on the quality of Alphacool post production QC... they have a "Blitz Kit" that is recommended for acid cleaning radiators before use with Mahems products.... my Mayhmes red pastel changed from red to purple to black over time.

Bronze is "mostly copper".  The above link is exerpted from martin's article here. So no, it's not all copper but it's perty down close.

https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/corrosion-explored/

So when we talk corrosion, we have three major  issues to discuss between CLCs and custom loops:

1.  We are looking at a galvanic potential of any bronze parts of 0.35 for the copper block and 0.40 for the copper/ brass radiator which thereby has a galvanic corrosion potential of 0.05.  With a  CLC and aluminum rad, those numbers are 0.35 and 0.75  which has a a galvanic corrosion potential of 0.40 ... 8 times greater.  The higher number acts as the electron donor or 'sacrificial anode" and it corrodes away, the electrons comining with any impurities to form the gunk you see in the channels of the water block.

2.  So ya already starting out in a condition that has 8 times the rate of corrosion.  On top of that, all systems would (should) have a corrosion inhibitor present in the coolant.  These have an effective useful life of 18 - 24 months.  Much like today's political scene, this disadvantage, is proclaimed as a "feature" ... "no maintenane required". 

The automotive equivalent would be no drain in ya car's oil pan.    Crud builds up in the system reducing performance... sometimes so much so that they system explodes from over pressure due to restriction.  But the bean counters have calculated that failures during the warranty period won't be that great and the cost of replacing those that fail is part of the purchase price.  With a  custom loop or an OLC type AIO, you have access to either change out the system with resh coolant or just adding a few drops of inhibitor every 18 monthsor so. 

3.  The CLCs weak pumps generally about 10% of the flow of a custom loopl or OLC model are a bit better at keeping any settled out particles in suspension.


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## Wet_Paint (Nov 15, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> It's hard to tell from the pic as the plate appears to block view of the channels.  Here's a pic of an extreme case
> 
> https://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/copperaluminumcorrosion.jpeg
> 
> ...



Woah that was a lot of information. I didnt know that alphacool is that bad but yeah the radiators have been flushed 2 times so that should be taken care of, i hope. Isnt the Mayhems X1 corrosion inhibitor? Or are there some special ones needed? If so, which one do you recommend?

Ive read about issues with Mayhem's products but as far as i know its only related to those fancy ones, the X1 was marketed as anti-algea and anti-corrosion, it was also the cheapest one. When i had the loop opened i didnt notice any "gunk" in radiators or the tubes, thats why i was shocked when i saw what was inside the coldplate. 
Is there any way of being able to tell that stuff is going bad before it goes as bad as it went with the alphacool waterblock?


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## John Naylor (Nov 16, 2018)

Wet_Paint said:


> Woah that was a lot of information. I didnt know that alphacool is that bad but yeah the radiators have been flushed 2 times so that should be taken care of, i hope. Isnt the Mayhems X1 corrosion inhibitor? Or are there some special ones needed? If so, which one do you recommend?
> 
> Ive read about issues with Mayhem's products but as far as i know its only related to those fancy ones, the X1 was marketed as anti-algea and anti-corrosion, it was also the cheapest one. When i had the loop opened I didnt notice any "gunk" in radiators or the tubes, thats why i was shocked when i saw what was inside the coldplate.
> 
> Is there any way of being able to tell that stuff is going bad before it goes as bad as it went with the alphacool waterblock?



I didn't say they were... Mayhems did  

I like Alphacool rads .... screw protectors, 7 connections, great performance.  But I do acid treat and flush them before using ... as i would any rad.

You can take the block apart and clean it ... I use a solution of vinegar and hot  water, or you could use the Mayhems Blitz Kit.  An Aquarium gravel cleaner suction kit makes  great flushing device.... close the suction port to use in "fill mode".

https://www.marineandreef.com/Python_Aquarium_Gravel_Vac_python_no_spill_clean_and_fill_s/174.htm

1.  Flush rads with tap water in kitchen sink or tub.... 2 minutes hot / 2 minutes cold / 2 minutes hot 
2.  Fill with vinegar water solution, let sit 2 hours.  (or use Blitz Kit as per instructions)
3.  Repeat Step 1.

For the water block....

1.  Disassemble and wipe clean with towelette to remove grease on O-rings and points of contact.
2.  Disassemble and place parts in bowl with vinegar solution for 2 hours.
3.  If any remaining crud, dip toothbrush in solution and scrub clean.
4.  Repeat Steps 2 and 3 with new solution, till satisfied ... usually won't be needed to repeat and 10 minutes should suffice.
5.  Give them a water bath in distilled water.... 
6.  Let dry, lubricate O-Rings with a  food grade silicone grease such as Trident LP20 and reassemble.

https://www.ekwb.com/blog/how-to-clean-water-blocks/

If desired you can also flush an entire system using that fish tank thingie before doing any of the above... . Without connecting to faucet as yet,  I connect the end to the top radiator and fill the aquarium tool tube to avoid air pockets before connecting to faucet.  I then connect a 2nd tube I made from the same tubing with a  QD fitting which connects to a QD drain port on the bottom rad.  I start the faucet slow flow rate and then the pump with a small 12v power supply w/o stating up puter.

After disassembling and blocks and treating / cleaning rads ....

1.  Fill the system with DW and run for an hour using 12v power supply so system remains off
2.  Repeat step 1
3.  Fill with coolant
4.  Bleed system thru reservoir top port leaving small air gap at top (1") to observe any changes in water level.
5.  To the tilty thing to shake loose any trapped air bubbles.
6.  I use a fill tube attached to the top port on the top rad with a 40mm brass riser which extends rad port to just below top case grille, then 12" acylic tube riser, valve and funnel.
7.  With say 6" of water in the 1/4" riser tube, will let it run 24 hours after which level in tube will drop.  Fill as necessary to make sure water level can be seen in tube.
8.  Once satisfied that no air remains in system, will crack the valve on the resrrvoir top just a hair so that remaining coolant in riser tube gradually drops then close reservoir valve so that fill tube is empty and water level is just below the top of the 400mm brass riser.  Shut down and remove the acrylic riser and cap the brass riser.  At this point will be visible 15 - 35mm air gap in 250mm reservoir which can be monitored with a glance over time.  Air will continue to 'outgas' from th coolant in small amounts over time.   This will get trapped in the 40mm riser9s) on top of the rad and the void replaced by the coolant which was occupying that space.  You can check it every 6 months or so and 'top off' witha  squeeze bottle .


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