# cooling: blow more in or suck more out?



## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

i got a quick question for ya all.

currently, my case cooling setup is as follows. 
2x80mm rear blowing in
2x80mm front blowing out
1x120mm side in

in your opinion, is it better to be blowing more air in than sucking air out, or vice versa?

i'm planning on changing this setup, adding another 120mm fan blowing out on the back, changing the 2x80mm rear to blow out, the 2x80mm front blowing in, and perhaps a pci slot fan thingy blowing out in the back.


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## cjoyce1980 (Jul 25, 2006)

more out is better, as these fans will pull more air thorugh. mine is 4 in and 2 out and my athlon xp sits at 45c idle, before this it was 53c


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## pt (Jul 25, 2006)

Does your case is ATX/BTX?


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

atx. 

so higher flow out is better. hmm.
perhaps a 80mm-120mm fan adapter is in order.

btw, i have a raidmax scorpio case (don't remember the exact model #)


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## GLD (Jul 25, 2006)

I would offer my 2cents and say you should switch the direction of your 80mm fans. Hot air rises? Yes? OK, so you want your back fans exhausting, just like your power supply does, and haveing the front fans intaking air in to your case. The side fan is OK intaking air. This is how I set up all my builds. Intake front and side, exhaust back.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

yeah, i usually do that too.

after i finished ripping apart my computer, i had to remount the case fans. but i screwed up and mounted them backwards. and since the fans are a pain to get on and off, i felt too lazy to fix them.


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## bbriand (Jul 25, 2006)

I have often been wondering this as well.  I think it would depend on your case design.  I would be worried that with too many fans blowing out you might create "dead spots" in your case where air doesn't circulate to.

For just straight fans I have 4 intakes (3x80mm and 1x120mm) and 1 exhaust (120mm).  This doesn't count my PSU and I have an AC Silencer which blows air out.  I have contemplated switching my top mounted fan to exhaust.  But in the end I figured more cool air in would be better and I have an AC Freezer on my CPU that helps direct air at my exhaust fan.

My rationale was this.  On a regular heatsink would you place the fan blowing onto the fins or trying to suck air through them?  So the way I figured it my intake fans are all pretty much blowing directly at something to cool it down.

I think it is case dependant to a degree though.

Bill


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

in my case at least, i'm noticing quite a few "dead spots" where hot air will just sit and collect.

the front half of my case is staying pretty cool, the intake fans are doing their jobs.

but a ton of heat is being generated by my cpu and 7900gt, and especially with the gfx card, the hot air is just sitting there. same goes for the cpu to some extent. so, since i figure i'm already pushing air thru the heatsinks, i might as well suck out all that stagnant hot air.

does anyone know of any good pci-mounted fans that suck out?


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## bbriand (Jul 25, 2006)

I know what you're saying about the CPU and GPU pumping out a lot of heat.  It was my driving force in purchasing my two coolers.  The GPU heat gets directly blown out the back and the CPU heat gets blown directly into my 120mm exhaust fan.

I should have paid closer attention to my case temps before I installed those 2 coolers but I was so excited to get them in I never thought to check any other temps then the CPU and GPU directly.

I need a pair of infrared goggles so I can see the hotspots in my case 

Bill


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

ha! ir goggles would be cool.

you have an ati silencer rev2, right? those things blow directly out the back of the case.

problem is, i have a zalman vf700alcu, and hot air sorta blows out laterally all over.
this is compunded by the fact that its already really really hot in the room where it is (think, 90-95F), so i get really high idle temps. 50C for the GPU on a bad day, 45C for the cpu.

but on cooler days, its totally different. 39C for the cpu, 43C gpu.
perhaps i can get variable speed fans i can tone down for the winter.


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## error_f0rce (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, the golden rule is: Front = IN, Back = OUT, SIDE = IN, TOP = OUT.

You typically want _negative_ pressure in your case, this will eliminate the so-called "dead spots", which means you need more air exausting than intaking.
So do some simple math to calculate your air CFM (cubic feet per minute) ratio.  Go to the manufac website if you don't know what CFM your fans are rated at, it can differ _greatly_ even between the same size fans.

Example:
*IN:* 2x 80mm [front] @ 34 CFM + 120mm [side] @ 50 CFM = 118 CFM IN
*OUT:* 2x 80mm [rear] @ 34 CFM + 80mm [top] @ 34 CFM = 102 CFM OUT
118/102 = positive pressure inside the case.

So in the example you would want to increase the exhaust or reduce some of the intake.  This is made much easier if you can adjust your fan speeds (i.e. reduce your x2 80mm intakes from 34 CFM to 20 CFM, to achieve a negative pressure of 90/102).  The ideal scenario would be to increase the exhaust, therefor not compromising the rate of flow.

I think the only thing that can be said "positively" about positive pressure is that is keeps dust out, but that's about where the list of pros ends.  Cons: positive pressure will create "dead spots" where air is swirling, but unable to escape because the intake/exhaust ratio is tipped in favor of the intake.  Too much air in, not enough air out = dead spots.  Now picture "negative" pressure as a vacuum cleaner, there goes all the hot air right out the case... however, you want to maintain decent intake because if the ratio is tipped to far in favor of the exhaust, you will again lower you rate of airflow through the case.

Although truly you should calculate your PSU fan(s) into these equations, I've never seen it done.  This may be due to the fact that the PSU fan(s) spins at different speeds depending on load, ambient temp etc.

Hope you made it all the way through this and hope it helps 

EDIT: High pressure, or low pressure... it's all about the CFM's.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

higher pressure as in blowing more in?

lower pressure is blowing more out, correct?

the primary reason i'm thinking of blowing more out is because my case doesn't really have the capacity to blow more in.
it only has 2x80mm slots on the front, and a door and plastic crap covering everything else.

but on the back side, i can add a 120mm and some other stuff.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

thanks for the great post, error_f0rce.

i think i have too much positive pressure in my case right now. 2x80 rear in is like 50cfm combined, and my 120mm side is like 70cfm in.
my 2x80mm front is maybe 50cfm out.

so that would explain the dead spots.

i'm at work right now, but i'll try to make some changes tonight and see if that helps temps, etc. 

and thanks for all the help everybody! tpu rocks!


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## error_f0rce (Jul 25, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> thanks for the great post, error_f0rce.
> 
> i think i have too much positive pressure in my case right now. 2x80 rear in is like 50cfm combined, and my 120mm side is like 70cfm in.
> my 2x80mm front is maybe 50cfm out.
> ...


Sounds good, post and let us know how it goes!


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## bbriand (Jul 25, 2006)

Very nice post error_f0rce!  My only comment would be that if the case was air tight this would be bang on.  But most cases aren't even close.  I don't know how this would affect the equations.

I'm thinking if you had a bucket and two hoses.  One blowing 35CFM and one sucking 35CFM.  What would cool off a hot plate of chili on the bottom faster?
1. The hose thats sucking air placed in the center of the bucket, or
2. the hose thats blowing air placed in the center of the bucket blowing directly on the chili.

Logic tells me number 2 would be faster but I have never attempted this experiment.

The only thing I can to do is if its hot blast it with air from outside the case.  Then have a fan to remove the hot air as well as the vent holes.

Bill


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

bbriand, i see your point.

i think my primary problem is stagnant hot air. i have these dead spots in my case (under the gpu, between the cpu and ram) that get really hot. not the physical components themselves as much as the hot air let off just sits there.
so if i could figure out a way to suck all that hot air out, temps should lower.


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## bbriand (Jul 25, 2006)

Maybe if you took a 120mm fan and placed it at the bottom of your case and put just enough power to it to get the air circulating (maybe even a variable speed control).

The fan wouldn't be directly attached/mounted to the case in the traditional sense but just sitting in there to circulate air.  Possibly even angle it a bit so the air moves towards the exhaust.

Something like this:






Its a similar design for say my AC Freezer Pro.  Take the hot air and direct it towards the exhaust.

I don't know if this would work or not but don't we all have at least one spare fan kicknig around? 

I would say this might take all of 5 mins to setup - tops!  I'm thinking more like 45 seconds.  15 to get the side off, 15 to plug in and prop up the fan and 15 to get the side back on.

Anyhow good luck 

Bill


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

hmm that sounds like a good idea.

i was thinking something similar, except w/ a pci mounted fan thingie. i was at frys a few days ago and saw one. they mount in your pci slot, and exhaust hot air out the back. i was thinking of putting one next to the card.
but this'd work just as well i think. and then take off some pci covers on teh back to let it vent maybe????

problem is, i used my last spare fan (that i know of) for my pong clock.
so its back into the dark closet of RIP computers to go fan hunting!


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## bbriand (Jul 25, 2006)

Radio Shack has a fan assembly (with 3 fans) that mounts in a 5 1/4" bay.  I think I saw them there for $10.  Pretty good buy.

As for fans I swear I collect them whenever I see them on sale.  I have a box of odd sized fans/blowers (some with heatsinks) that I'll probably never use and never throw away.  My recent fan purchase was to see if I could make a homemade lens defogger for my paintball mask.

The PCI slot exhaust fans are pretty cool.  I think I have one in that box I just mentioned. (No free PCI slots on my case).

Bill


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## randomperson21 (Jul 25, 2006)

thats cool. 
problem is, i have a door over my front panel.

stupid raidmax cases.

i have a whole collection of p3 computers. dells, mostly. so theres gotta be something in there.


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## bbriand (Jul 25, 2006)

Yeah I have a door as well but I am reluctant to close it.  I don't want to get in a habit of closing it as I burn a lot of CDs/DVDs and they autoeject and I don't want the door latched when they do.

Sounds kinda silly I know but its one less thing to have to worry about when I tear my butt from my computer chair. 

Bill


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## error_f0rce (Jul 25, 2006)

bbriand said:
			
		

> Very nice post error_f0rce!  My only comment would be that if the case was air tight this would be bang on.  But most cases aren't even close.  I don't know how this would affect the equations.
> 
> I'm thinking if you had a bucket and two hoses.  One blowing 35CFM and one sucking 35CFM.  What would cool off a hot plate of chili on the bottom faster?
> 1. The hose thats sucking air placed in the center of the bucket, or
> ...


Thanks Bill,

I agree with your theory!  I also like the metaphor, although the chili doesn't constantly produce heat, therefor it doesn't require constant venting.  
I would liken a properly place side intake fan (above the CPU) to your hose idea blowing directly on the chili.  Now in a bucket, there is obviously no lid, so the hot air escapes effortlessly.  Unfortunately with most standard computer case, it needs a little "encouragement"  , ergo the air flowing through the case.  

I think it also worth mentioning that if your CPU's HS/HSF is doing it job, there should be no problem with the temperature of the CPU; the heat _wants_ to escape on its own, we just have to provide it a means, i.e. exhaust.  That is why I don't worry as much about "blowing" heat off the CPU with a fan, as much as exhausting the existing heat that is trapped in the case.  However, IMO it's most efficient to use both methods simultaneously.  The efficacy of _this_ method can also be enhanced by installing a "windtunnel" (aka ducting) going from the side intake to your CPU, channeling the air directly to it.  These come with some cases, but can also be purchased and bolted to the back of your side panel: http://www.xoxide.com/ovcokit.html (check out the heat graphs).

Whew, I'm all tuckered out for today I think...


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## randomperson21 (Jul 26, 2006)

well, i got home and started fiddling with my fans, and i discovered something horrendous.

the total air output of my fans was being reduced by about 50% by the fan grills on the case!

now if i had my digital cam, i'd post pictures, but since i don't, i'll do my best to discribe.

so there are 4x80mm slots for fans on the case. but instead of being just holes for fans, they are just peforated sections of sheet metal. problem, there is too much sheet metal and not enough holes. 
so when the fan is blowing by itself, it moves 40cfm. that number is cut in half as soon as its mounted. 
actually, its sooo bad that air is bounced back into the case by an exhaust fan. when i mount the fan, and then put my had over the intake end, i shouldn't feel air blowing back at my hand. but i do. and its because 50% of the air is bouncing off the grill and back at my hand.

so, i'm going to do some mods to the case:

Mods to do:
1. Cut out 2x80mm back grills for 100% airflow
2. Cut 80mm (120mm??) blowhole on top. not sure which one will fit yet.
3. cut out 2x80mm front (90% sure of this)
4. mount 1x120 mm back thru 80mm-120mm adapter
5. fan grille 80/120mm for new openings in back and top


Total CFM

IN: 2x80mm front in @ 80cfm + 120mm in side @ 70cfm == 150cfm - (impediance from
front grill)

OUT: 1x80mm back out @ 40cfm + 1x120mm out @ 70cfm + 1x80mm top out @ 40cfm +
120mm psu out @ ???cfm = greater than 150CFM

perhaps add a pci exhaust fan under gfx card to hit that dead spot.

so i'll be pulling more out than pushing in, if just by a little bit. If i mount a 120mm on the top instead of a 80mm, total out would be more like 180CFM. Also, all my 120mm fans can be set anywhere between 30-70cfm, so come winter, i can switch them all on low and still get pretty much the same ratios.

also, someone just posted that tigerdirect is selling an ultra $40 fan controller for $5-something, so might pick that up. too good a deal to miss out on.

comments?


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## randomperson21 (Jul 26, 2006)

one more thing:

about the ultra fan controller: it takes 7 3pin fans, up to 12v.

4 of the fans in my case have 4 pin molex connectors.

soooo

would it be possible just to splice the +/- on a 4 pin to the +/- on a 3 pin? and just ignore the rpm sense cable?


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## error_f0rce (Jul 26, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> one more thing:
> 
> about the ultra fan controller: it takes 7 3pin fans, up to 12v.
> 
> ...


Right... just keep in mind that the yellow molex wire is the 12v and the red wire is the 5v.  Probably don't want to mix those up   Yeah, ignore the rpm sense cable on the 3-pin (yellow?)


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## randomperson21 (Jul 26, 2006)

3 pin fan cables/ whatever are usually 12v, right?

and if the molex fans are running at 12v anyways...
i could most likely just cut the fan where its coming out of the molex adapter, then solder on directly the red/black wires from the 3 pin. that wouldn't be so bad...

thanks for all the help everyone!


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## error_f0rce (Jul 26, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> 3 pin fan cables/ whatever are usually 12v, right?
> 
> and if the molex fans are running at 12v anyways...
> i could most likely just cut the fan where its coming out of the molex adapter, then solder on directly the red/black wires from the 3 pin. that wouldn't be so bad...
> ...


Yup, run red to yellow and black to black.  Just make sure to insulate the connection point after soldering (i.e. electrical tape, etc), you don't want that touching anything metal  

GL!


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## randomperson21 (Jul 26, 2006)

ha yeah.

my fans are set up like a molex passthru deal. so if i snip them before they get to the molex adapter, i'll just have the red and black.
as well as a nifty 2" molex extension cable.....


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## error_f0rce (Jul 26, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> ha yeah.
> 
> my fans are set up like a molex passthru deal. so if i snip them before they get to the molex adapter, i'll just have the red and black.
> as well as a nifty 2" molex extension cable.....


Another option is an adapter.  They have some at Xoxide for $2 each:
http://www.xoxide.com/3to4pinadaptor.html


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## _33 (Jul 26, 2006)

I'd recommend to equally push as much air as you pull, that way the air will flow freely and the fans won't make as much noise as they will suffer a little less pressure.  A 120mm front and 2 X 80mm back is probably an ideal config.  If you got a blower on the side, that's perfect.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 26, 2006)

i calculated the cfm intake and outtake, and its going to be pretty balanced by the time i'm done. roughly 150cfm in and out at 100% power.

My PSU will add a bit more out, but not much.


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## error_f0rce (Jul 27, 2006)

_33 said:
			
		

> I'd recommend to equally push as much air as you pull, that way the air will flow freely and the fans won't make as much noise as they will suffer a little less pressure.  A 120mm front and 2 X 80mm back is probably an ideal config.  If you got a blower on the side, that's perfect.


Very true, pos/neg pressure does create more fan noise.  
As for an equal flow ratio, yes it will increase the rate of flow... however, I would still hold that a negative pressure (however slight/great) will more effectively eliminate dead-spots and trapped heat.  Hot air will rise to the top of your case and sit there while the cooler air passes/flows beneath it.  Creating a vacuum (neg pressure) will displace the hot air that is trapped up top. Perhaps the exception would be if you had a blowhole, this would free the trapped air as well.  

My 2 cents


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## _33 (Jul 27, 2006)

error_f0rce said:
			
		

> Very true, pos/neg pressure does create more fan noise.
> As for an equal flow ratio, yes it will increase the rate of flow... however, I would still hold that a negative pressure (however slight/great) will more effectively eliminate dead-spots and trapped heat.  Hot air will rise to the top of your case and sit there while the cooler air passes/flows beneath it.  Creating a vacuum (neg pressure) will displace the hot air that is trapped up top. Perhaps the exception would be if you had a blowhole, this would free the trapped air as well.
> 
> My 2 cents



Currently I have a very slow 120mm front that blows like 20 CFM.  I got a very normal 80mm side intake that probably gets another 30 CFM (it's got a filter).  Thoe I got a really fast 80mm in the back that used to be a PSU fan and it's quite effective (maybe 50 CFM).  I got another 80mm that's quite less effective (20 CFM approx).  I got the AC Silencer 5 rev 2 blowing air out.  And finally the PSU is blowing air out.

I'm a little like what you described.  But I think I'll get a stronger 120mm intake.

With this setup, I can enjoy a 32°c idle / 45°c load on a 1050 mhz overclock, while having ambient temp of 27°c.


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## _33 (Jul 27, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> i got a quick question for ya all.
> 
> currently, my case cooling setup is as follows.
> 2x80mm rear blowing in
> ...



BTW, you should blow air in from the front, and out to the back, not the other way around.  Unless you have something particular you want to do.  But the rule is:  Cool your hard drives first, and then send that air to the back and out.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 27, 2006)

_33 said:
			
		

> BTW, you should blow air in from the front, and out to the back, not the other way around.  Unless you have something particular you want to do.  But the rule is:  Cool your hard drives first, and then send that air to the back and out.



i figured that too. in my haste to get my computer back together, i mounted the fans backwards.

i've stripped my case, and i'm just waiting till i can run to the hardware store to pick up a 3" holesaw for a blowhole.
also going to drill out the front and back grills for better airflow.


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## error_f0rce (Jul 27, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> i figured that too. in my haste to get my computer back together, i mounted the fans backwards.
> 
> i've stripped my case, and i'm just waiting till i can run to the hardware store to pick up a 3" holesaw for a blowhole.
> also going to drill out the front and back grills for better airflow.


IMHO, don't use a hole bit and drill for the top, unless you have a drill press.  If you do it by hand, that SOB could slip & slide all over the top of your case and scratch it badly.    If you have a jig saw, or a dremel use that instead.  Also, whenever cutting a case use masking tape all over where you are cutting/drilling.  This not only makes it easier to draw/trace on top of, but if your blade jumps, or you slip, it will ensure you case doesn't get scratched.  Also be sure to DENT the case with an awl or something where you intend to drill your case fan mounting holes.  This will help the drill bit stay where it is supposed to, otherwise it will also play slip & slide.  

Also I would recommend some type of grill for the blow hole, that seem to be the one that the most stuff tried to fall in  

Good luck, be patient, post some picks when you're done so we can see k?


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## randomperson21 (Jul 27, 2006)

thanks for the excellent advice, error_f0rce.
this is my first time drilling a blowhole, so it should be interesting.
the only reason i was thinking 3" holesaw is that i don't have a dremel, and my jigsaw is about 10 years old.......
so i'm off to the hardware store this afternoon to see what i can dig up. perhaps i can find a cheap dremel somewhere.

i heard that putting a little oil down around the area you're going to cut helps the hole saw cut better. true?


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## error_f0rce (Jul 27, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> thanks for the excellent advice, error_f0rce.
> this is my first time drilling a blowhole, so it should be interesting.
> the only reason i was thinking 3" holesaw is that i don't have a dremel, and my jigsaw is about 10 years old.......
> so i'm off to the hardware store this afternoon to see what i can dig up. perhaps i can find a cheap dremel somewhere.
> ...


I'd be carful, the oil might just make it slide around.  If you are drilling aluminum, that's a lot easier than rolled steel.  If you mask up the top of the case with a bunch of layers of masking tape, that will help a little with the bit staying put.  Still would not recommend doing it that way though.

Maybe you could borrow someones dremel/jig saw?  If you use the jigsaw make sure to start the cut with a few drill holes, overlapping eachother.  That will let the jigsaw blade get in there.

Here is my case: that's an 80mm blowhole up top and a 17" tall window on the side
http://forums.techpowerup.com/showpost.php?p=126533&postcount=316


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## randomperson21 (Jul 27, 2006)

wow nice...

i emailed some buddies to see if i can borrow a dremel, haven't heard back yet.

what do you think of 2x80mm blowholes right next to each other? i know with a dremel, you can cut with a lot less vibrations propagating thru the metal. so 2 80mm fans, mounted parallel to each other, with about 2cm of space in between?

sorry if i'm not real clear...


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## bbriand (Jul 27, 2006)

I don't know if this would work or if it would bend the case but you could try:
- cut the same size hole in a piece of 2x4 (or 1x4)
- drill the mounting screw holes in the case and in the 2x4
- mount the 2x4 to the case with bolts (using the biggest washers you can find)
- use the hole in the 2x4 as a guide.  No slippage (I'd still use tape though).

maybe even use a piece of 2x4 on the other side of the case.  So you would have a 2x4 sandwich with your case as the meat 

In fact using the 2x4 on the other side without a hole in it might be a good thing.  If your hole cutter has a mandrel bit (or whatever its called but basically a bit in the center of the hole saw) the wod would also help keep it centered.

Anyone tried this before?

Also I remember someone mentioning not to purchase the cheapest hole saw you could.  Pay a bit more and they tend to do a better job on metal.  The oil would be a good idea too if you can keep the saw from slipping.

Remember WD-40 is NOT an oil 

Good luck,
Bill


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## error_f0rce (Jul 27, 2006)

bbriand said:
			
		

> I don't know if this would work or if it would bend the case but you could try:
> - cut the same size hole in a piece of 2x4 (or 1x4)
> - drill the mounting screw holes in the case and in the 2x4
> - mount the 2x4 to the case with bolts (using the biggest washers you can find)
> - use the hole in the 2x4 as a guide.  No slippage (I'd still use tape though).


As crazy as it sounds, that just might work!!  If all you can get your hands on is the drill and have to buy a bit, then you might want to try what Brian said.  You could probably pick up the bolts and washers for a buck or two when you're there to buy the bit, and some wood if you need it.

Nice idea Brian!!


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## error_f0rce (Jul 27, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> wow nice...
> 
> i emailed some buddies to see if i can borrow a dremel, haven't heard back yet.
> 
> ...


Ok I just deleted the other message I posted, got a little confused for a second.  It's up to you what you want to do.  If you have a 150CFM in and out, then it just depends if you want a negative pressure in your case (which I would recommend).  If you put in another blowhole that will give you another 34cfm or so exhaust.  You could, it's up to what you want.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 27, 2006)

bbriand said:
			
		

> I don't know if this would work or if it would bend the case but you could try:
> - cut the same size hole in a piece of 2x4 (or 1x4)
> - drill the mounting screw holes in the case and in the 2x4
> - mount the 2x4 to the case with bolts (using the biggest washers you can find)
> - use the hole in the 2x4 as a guide.  No slippage (I'd still use tape though).



that sounds pretty good! if i can get my hands on the hardware tonight, i'll try it out.


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## randomperson21 (Jul 28, 2006)

snap! i found me a dremel tool!
i'm going to pick it up from a friend tonight, then start cutting. 

i'll post pics as soon as i'm done.

thx for all the help everyone


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## cdawall (Jul 29, 2006)

you could always just mount a box fan  like this one $12 http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDU...earchResults.jsp&MID=9876&N=2984+3573&pos=n05
w/ the side of your case off bet that would drop temps. plus it is the AMERICAN way to do things


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## randomperson21 (Aug 8, 2006)

ok its been awhile, but i got the mods done.

drilled out all the fan grilles, 2x80mm blowholes, new 120mm in back, and some other stuff.

temps went down a ton! booted it up this morning and...






thanks for all your help guys. tpu rocks!


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## cdawall (Aug 8, 2006)

good you managed to beat my amzingly stock ultra case i get about 29C-32C for system temp but i am in houston (hasnt been under 100F in a month) but i have 
3x 30cfm in
1x 30cfm out
1x 60cfm out (ex. processor fan)
psu out


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## randomperson21 (Aug 8, 2006)

yeah, its only 60F out today, so thats most likely why.

i have 2x30cfm in + 70cfm in = 130cfm in
3x30cfm out + 70cfm out + psu = <160cfm out.

plus a 120mm cpu fan, 80mm gpu fan, and a tiny whiny chipset fan.


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## pt (Aug 8, 2006)

My Aeroengine will have 1x140mm fan with a 45cfm and an exhaust of 120mm with a 60cfm+PSU, i will probabily put my current fans on the side of the case for better intake


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## randomperson21 (Aug 8, 2006)

wow nice


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## cdawall (Aug 8, 2006)

cool how much you want for the as5


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## pt (Aug 9, 2006)

cdawall said:
			
		

> cool how much you want for the as5



is that question for me?


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## g12rxz (Aug 9, 2006)

I found this an interesting topic, so i guess i'll post my question concerning cooling.  I have a Gigabyte poseidon case, 1x120 intake, 1x120 exhaust, motherboard has a small low cfm fan taking heat directly off the processor and exhausting it where the parallel port normally is... also i have a dual fan PSU exhausting.... i hear you mentioning negetive and positive pressure ( just in the sense of more in than out or vis versa)  this case also has a decent sized metal mesh ventilating side panel, would it be better in the end then to replace that with a glass side, i was just curios, cause the case did come with a glass side to replace the mesh if you want to, and if that would help cooling ever so slightly, i suppose i'd do it.


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

pt said:
			
		

> is that question for me?


yes it is


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## randomperson21 (Aug 9, 2006)

you know, you can get a 3.5g tube of as5 for $6 of newegg........

and it lasts forever. you don't need much.


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

lol lazy on my end oh well i guess i take it back then i just didnt feel like shopping


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## stealthfighter (Aug 9, 2006)

I just run my case open. I have one 80mm exhaust fan, one 80mm fan that blows in, intel heatsink & fan on processor and heatsink and fan on the GPU. RAM has heatsinks, notrhbridge has a big heatsink on it.


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

sooo


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## pt (Aug 9, 2006)

I don't have AS5 for sale, even if i do it will probabily cost you more the freight and taxes, where do you live?


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

texas buddy


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

sweet case btw


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## randomperson21 (Aug 9, 2006)

hehe i think its cheaper to do newegg.......

pt lives in portugal.


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

randomperson21 said:
			
		

> hehe i think its cheaper to do newegg.......
> 
> pt lives in portugal.


yeah ill just goes to fry's when i go to get a new hsf for the intel im getting


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## randomperson21 (Aug 9, 2006)

yeah. frys is good. but they're a bit more expensive. i think....


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## cdawall (Aug 9, 2006)

ehh it is cheaper than shipping  and fry's sales are always nice like today i could show get a s am2 x2 3800 and ecs mobo for $180


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## error_f0rce (Aug 12, 2006)

stealthfighter said:
			
		

> I just run my case open. I have one 80mm exhaust fan, one 80mm fan that blows in, intel heatsink & fan on processor and heatsink and fan on the GPU. RAM has heatsinks, notrhbridge has a big heatsink on it.


I did that for a while back in the day, but then read a few things that changed my mind.  Not only does an open case encourage the entry of foreign matter, but it won't actually keep you case as cool.  It's like standing outside on an average day, but with no breeze.  Enter the breeze: ah, it wisks away heat, both from cases (cooling) and people (windchill).  So an open case, and therefore a lack of airflow, will be less efficient than a closed case that in intaking and exhausting air properly.


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## stealthfighter (Aug 12, 2006)

I keep a fan blowing in it.


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## randomperson21 (Aug 12, 2006)

error_f0rce said:
			
		

> I did that for a while back in the day, but then read a few things that changed my mind.  Not only does an open case encourage the entry of foreign matter, but it won't actually keep you case as cool.  It's like standing outside on an average day, but with no breeze.  Enter the breeze: ah, it wisks away heat, both from cases (cooling) and people (windchill).  So an open case, and therefore a lack of airflow, will be less efficient than a closed case that in intaking and exhausting air properly.



agreed. although, if the side is open, with a very large-ish box fan blowing in.....hehe. 


btw, finished all the mods. dropped temps about 10C. very happy with the results.


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## cdawall (Aug 12, 2006)

make sure you route all your cables well that alone droped my temps a lot almost 5C from 29C-30C to 24C just cuase i tucked some wires out of the way


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## randomperson21 (Aug 13, 2006)

yep, everything sleved and stealthed.

idle temp today is 32C. gfx idling at 38C. compared to 45C, 50C before. and its hot out today, and i don't have a/c.


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## cdawall (Aug 13, 2006)

lol i just tried to oc to 2.48 that didnt work and it heated my case up what an ass stupid processor


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## trog100 (Aug 13, 2006)

i recon "blow more in" is the best way.. only cos u can blow it directly at some things.. its more aimable.. he he

but as a general rule.. in at the bottom front.. out at the top rear.. and what come in has to find a way out.. it needs to be "balanced".. 

but a big extra "blow more in" fan stuck on the side blowing directly at my toasty1900xtx grfx card is what i have as well as the front and rear fans..

trog


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## Mediocre (Aug 13, 2006)

Front - Always IN (over HDD's should be)

Side - Always IN (for GFX and CPU)

Rear - OUT 

PSU - OUT

If you still don't get enough air, buy a PCI slot blower. Bottom line is this:

Find what ambient temp is INSIDE your case. Then find out your CPU and GFX. Take the difference for each. That delta will be VERY consistent for any ambient case temp...

Case - 30C, GFX - 40C, CPU 38C.... Your CPU will always hover around 8C higher than your case (delta) and the GFX will hover around 10C (delta = 10).

We spend 40-50 engineering hours trying to figure out how to cool a Prescott 3.2 (800MHz bus) in a micro ATX case with a 1U heatsink/fan. The best option was to add a 120mm AC (120V) fan. It keeps the case 1C or 2C above room temp, and the prescott idles around 50C. I hate P4...they run sooo hot.


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## cdawall (Aug 13, 2006)

case sit 28C idle maybe gets up to 33C load cpu sits at 45C idle and 55C load (o/c'd @2.44ghz) w/ a stock amd hsf


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## randomperson21 (Aug 14, 2006)

hehe 33C idle, 45-50C load......

da da da da dum! i'm lovin it!


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## error_f0rce (Aug 14, 2006)

trog100 said:


> i recon "blow more in" is the best way.. only cos u can blow it directly at some things.. its more aimable.. he he
> 
> but as a general rule.. in at the bottom front.. out at the top rear.. and what come in has to find a way out.. it needs to be "balanced"..
> 
> ...



The only problem with your theory is that regardless of how much air you have blowing into your case, unless it exhausts as fast, or faster than your intake, the hot air will still be trapped in you case.  Back to square one...


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## cdawall (Aug 14, 2006)

that is why i love my cooler master adj. fan the s.o.b. is loud as heck when it gets up and goes at like 70-80cfm (not bad for an 80mm) but is near silent at 55-60cfm with that and another coolermaster silent 80mm (only 30cfm) and the psu make up my exhuast then i have 3x 30cfm intake fans (1x side over vid card 2x in the front but not over my hdd it made the drive unstabe go figure stupid maxtor) my case sits at idle almost silent and cool as can be in houston summer


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## trog100 (Aug 14, 2006)

"Back to square one"

not entirely.. a general case temp is one thing..  cooling a particularly hot area (my 1900 card for example) by blowing outside air onto it can help.. its not the actual case temp that matters  but the temp of the bits inside the case..

a bad area in most cases is the bottom rear corner where a few toasty pci cards can sit.. the general airflow can kinda bypass it.. 

trog


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## cdawall (Aug 14, 2006)

no pci cards so im a ok


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## error_f0rce (Aug 15, 2006)

trog100 said:


> "Back to square one"
> 
> not entirely.. a general case temp is one thing..  cooling a particularly hot area (my 1900 card for example) by blowing outside air onto it can help..


Ok, I see your point as far as the cooling application for a card/component with direct air current.



trog100 said:


> its not the actual case temp that matters  but the temp of the bits inside the case..


Not sure what you mean by "bits", but high case temps can actually reduce your PSU rated wattage by up to 50% and cause lower performance in all your other components as well... I'd say _that_ matters.  
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/technology/myths/

I've seen situations where people have aftermarket cooling on their graphics cards/processors and can't figure out why they are still so hot, then they correctly ventilate their case (slight negative pressure) and see a 10C-15C drop in CPU/GPU temps.


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## randomperson21 (Aug 15, 2006)

err0r_force is right: i got a 10C drop in gpu temps with the neg pressure stuff he was helping me with.

the only noticable thing that heats up in my case now (i.e. warm to the touch) is my psu, believe it or not. the 120mm fan in it, although silent, doesn't push a ton of air...


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## jakax (Aug 20, 2006)

wait..
i have a question so you should have the more powerful fan in intake or exaust


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## pentastar111 (Aug 20, 2006)

I noticed that, in cooling this less than adequately cooled case(in stock form) of mine(Gateway 5032GT case). I had to cut a 80mm hole and install an intake fan blowing directly over my HDD. That sucker never gets hot. I then "punched" another hole (a 120mm) to "exhaust the hot air coming from the video card. So here it is in a nutshell:::::One 120mm TTsmartfan as CPU cooling(front mount), one 80mmTTsmartfan2,as HDD cooling (side mount). One 80mm Vantec tornado as primary case exhaust(rear mount)and another 120mm TTsmartfan as the video card exhaust(side mount). All intakes are filtered. My case temps never and I mean never reach over 36C! The case and the CPU temps are pretty much the same as well as the HDD temps. According to Speedfan my temps for all three of the above mentioned locations average between 27 to 30C except under extreme "protein folding" use. Then the CPU might reach 37 to 42C. LOL. As far as the video card is concerned. This EVGA 7900GT(stock clocked) for doing simple tasks such as typing this reply, the temp is at 44C and under gaming load between 45 and 55C. The cooling solution is UGLY at best as the case is far too narrow to mount the fans in the case, so external measures had to be taken. UUUGGGLLLY, but effective. As far as the question more intake vs more exhaust? I get superb cooling running 1 primary intake and two exhaust's the other intake "only"cools the HDD. it would definitely depend on the case. I believe that the more CFM in both areas is the best bet. So long as as you move air in and you move air out. I prefer more air moving "out"!


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## randomperson21 (Aug 20, 2006)

jakax said:


> wait..
> i have a question so you should have the more powerful fan in intake or exaust



if you look at the previous posts, you'll see my temps+fan config.

i personally like more cfm out than in, allows for "negative" pressure that sucks out any dead spots.


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## pentastar111 (Aug 20, 2006)

randomperson21 said:


> if you look at the previous posts, you'll see my temps+fan config.
> 
> i personally like more cfm out than in, allows for "negative" pressure that sucks out any dead spots.


 Amen. Keeping in mind that AMBIENT air temps play a vital role if you are using traditional "fan" cooling solutions. I mean if you are in the mohave desert or in "Death Valley" in a little tin shack with no A/C., and the temps are 130 degree's F you'll never get anything below that air temp. I keep my room between 72 to 74 F. It really helps. One other thought, the negative pressure depends upon the case design too. I doubt very highly that I'd ever be able to get negative pressure in the LIan Li V1000 because of the thousands of ventalation holes on the front of this unit.


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## error_f0rce (Aug 21, 2006)

pentastar111 said:


> One other thought, the negative pressure depends upon the case design too. I doubt very highly that I'd ever be able to get negative pressure in the LIan Li V1000 because of the thousands of ventalation holes on the front of this unit.


That's a very good point, I hadn't even considered that.  I wonder... if you blocked all those vents, like in the front where the drive bays are, if it would actually lower your case temps since you are, in essence, increasing your negative pressure.  If anyone tries this, please post your temp results!  I'd like to see if it would be worth "insulating" your case's air vents...


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## pentastar111 (Aug 21, 2006)

error_f0rce said:


> That's a very good point, I hadn't even considered that.  I wonder... if you blocked all those vents, like in the front where the drive bays are, if it would actually lower your case temps since you are, in essence, increasing your negative pressure.  If anyone tries this, please post your temp results!  I'd like to see if it would be worth "insulating" your case's air vents...


 This case is sitting in my room waiting to be filled with "goodies". As soon as it is up and running I'll do some messing around in that area. i'll let you know


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