# what is going on with my L3 Cache speed 46GB/s instead of over 650GB/s (5800X)



## GerKNG (Oct 4, 2021)

i wanted to see how my memory latency was and compare it against other 5800Xs.

Memory, L1 and L2 Cache is fine and in spec.
but my L3 Cache is more than 90% slower than all other benchmarks show.

Windows 11 Pro, latest update (Beta, release candidate .194) (fresh install after i first saw this issue)
latest chipset driver, latest everything.
latest Bios (win 11 ready a84 bios from MSI (B550 Tomahawk)
no power saving modes, same results even with a manual OC.
no software running in the background, flashed the bios again with flashback.
latest version of AIDA64 (reinstalled two times)
reseated CPU, ram memtest, P95.

CB Scores are fine but games tend to stutter and heavily drop frames sometimes.


here is my result. (stock, just XMP) 





And this is how it should look like.


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## Mussels (Oct 4, 2021)

Wasnt this an issue with certain AGESA updates?

googling says AGESA ComboAM4v2 1.2.0.1 fixed the issue

There are 3 Bios since that time that should fix your problem, for your board - including the beta you're on
MSI MAG B550 TOMAHAWK AMD AM4 DDR4 CF M.2 USB 3.2 Gen 2 HDMI ATX Gaming Motherboard

Drop down one BIOS to the latest official?


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## tabascosauz (Oct 4, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> CB Scores are fine but games tend to stutter and heavily drop frames sometimes.



Is the 5800X at completely stock settings?

A.84 (experimental 1203c) is still a beta BIOS isn't it? I'm still on A.30 on my Unify-X for that reason (stable 1203b). Might want to try A.70 with 1203b.

I'm not sure if you remember but I think I mentioned the problems with my old 2x16GB CJR kit to you once. Inexplicable stuttering that I threw the entire laundry list at for almost 2 years, only to fix it by switching to B-die. Not sure if it's of relevance here. I was also running a 3600 16-19-19 profile, but your latency seems a bit high at the same settings. I was about 59.9ns with a 5900X's 2CCD penalty? Subtimings shouldn't account for a 2-4ns difference, maybe 1ns tops on CJR.

CB shouldn't be affected, you'd be hard pressed to find a noticeable difference in R23 even dropping to JEDEC speed. It doesn't really care about memory.

edit: just saw you're on Win 11. 1203c is supposed to be designed for Win 11 support, but who knows if MS or AMD or MSI have borked something. 



Mussels said:


> googling says AGESA ComboAM4v2 1.2.0.1 fixed the issue



iirc the L3 Aida "fix" around that time mainly for APUs that displayed ~1/2 L3 read speed? I would be stuck at like 300-400GB/s read while write and copy were normal at 600GB/s. As for the L3 here, it just looks like a bad BIOS for all the bandwidth to be that low. And I don't think the fix had to do with L3 latency, his L3 latency is worse than terrible.


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## Mussels (Oct 4, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Is the 5800X at completely stock settings?
> 
> A.84 (experimental 1203c) is still a beta BIOS isn't it? I'm still on A.30 on my Unify-X for that reason (stable 1203b). Might want to try A.70 with 1203b.
> 
> ...


I specifically saw people talking about this issue, thats how i knew to google the L3 issue and which agesa fixed it

At a guess, the beta bios broke it again


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## Chomiq (Oct 4, 2021)

Isn't this W11 issue? I remember seeing this mentioned in the W11 discussion thread.









						Share your AIDA 64 cache and memory benchmark here
					

I would absolutely be all over stuff like that, except it is of no use to me :mad:  1:1 is best for my setup. My board doesn't really like anything passed 4533, or 1 tick from 4600.. and this CPU doesn't like anything more than 4400, and no point in that because I can only get my FCLK stable up...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 4, 2021)

OP living under a rock, yet he is brave enough to use beta software.

First place one has to search these things is Feedback Hub and upvote it.

It is a known issue. Dev builds do not suffer from it, only beta so far. Wait for the final release otherwise.


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## GerKNG (Oct 4, 2021)

i don't know how long you guys are following MSIs Bios distribution for AMD but EVERY SINGLE LATEST BIOS will be called "Beta" until the next one arrives.
then it gets its beta tag removed. (like the previous one which was beta until A84 released.)

my PC takes ages to boot, shutdown and some games are barely playable.



Ferrum Master said:


> It is a known issue. Dev builds do not suffer from it, only beta so far. Wait for the final release otherwise.


i tested my 10900k today and this issue does not exist. (on the same OS and SSD without any changes)


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## Chomiq (Oct 4, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> i don't know how long you guys are following MSIs Bios distribution for AMD but EVERY SINGLE LATEST BIOS will be called "Beta" until the next one arrives.
> then it gets its beta tag removed. (like the previous one which was beta until A84 released.)
> 
> my PC takes ages to boot, shutdown and some games are barely playable.


On top of that you're also running W11 beta.


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## GerKNG (Oct 4, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> On top of that you're also running W11 beta.


.194 is the release candidate and i wrote above that it only happens with an AMD CPU.



Mussels said:


> At a guess, the beta bios broke it again


seems to be right.


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## Chomiq (Oct 4, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> .194 is the release candidate and i wrote above that it only happens with an AMD CPU.


That's because it's probably some AGESA bs that can only be fixed by AMD releasing updated chipset driver for W11.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 4, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> That's because it's probably some AGESA bs that can only be fixed by AMD releasing updated chipset driver for W11.



How a Chipset driver influences a kernel behavior? Mhm?

It is a Win11 BETA BRANCH BUG.... if you have no idea how Microsoft divides their code base then do not use a product, that is not finished.

Here's more discussion about it that started in august.









						L3 Cache Performance on Windows 11?
					

I've seen isolated reports about the L3 cache performance being outright terrible with some CPUs on Windows 11 (mostly with Ryzen), and I confirmed...




					forums.mydigitallife.net
				






GerKNG said:


> i tested my 10900k today and this issue does not exist. (on the same OS and SSD without any changes)



Obviously if you test a different architecture you will not find anything as it is totally unrelated and AMD specific issue.

A honest question to all. Why are you not using feedback hub if you use a BETA product? What's the point?


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## Dr. Dro (Oct 4, 2021)

I have the same issue with my 5950X processor. Been looking at it for some time, it's not due to HVCI or virtualization-based security (though these place further penalties on the benchmark). My motherboard is very similar to yours, only a model up (B550*-E*), but I have friends who have been able to reproduce on the Crosshair 8 Dark Hero, Gigabyte B550 Aorus Master, B550i Aorus Pro AX etc.

It is not a beta BIOS issue, I can recall it happening at least since before the USB bugfix AGESA (so 1.2.0.0 at a minimum), and it does occur on the current stable BIOSes for the ROG Strix motherboards as well.

However, I would be lying if I felt the impact of this "issue", if it actually exists beyond AIDA64, because my experience has been fantastic thus far and all other benchmarks that I have run return normal results. I wonder if this is a bug with AIDA64 itself.



Ferrum Master said:


> How a Chipset driver influences a kernel behavior? Mhm?
> 
> It is a Win11 BETA BRANCH BUG.... if you have no idea how Microsoft divides their code base then do not use a product, that is not finished.



I have actually been experiencing this on Windows 10 stable as well... and I would argue one can't call Windows 11 (22000) beta anymore. The RTM final code is available and running on most W11-equipped PCs right now. By all intents and purposes, what you see is what you will get on production systems shipping with the OS beginning tomorrow.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 4, 2021)

Dr. Dro said:


> I have the same issue with my 5950X processor. Been looking at it for some time, it's not due to HVCI or virtualization-based security (though these place further penalties on the benchmark). My motherboard is very similar to yours, only a model up (B550*-E*), but I have friends who have been able to reproduce on the Crosshair 8 Dark Hero, Gigabyte B550 Aorus Master, B550i Aorus Pro AX etc.
> 
> It is not a beta BIOS issue, I can recall it happening at least since before the USB bugfix AGESA (so 1.2.0.0 at a minimum), and it does occur on the current stable BIOSes for the ROG Strix motherboards as well.
> 
> ...



You can open up the link in MDL forum, there are some game benchmarks as well.

Most bizarre thing is that if you do a virtual OS, the guest OS doesn't exhibit this bug anymore. It is more complicated than it seems and purely is windows kernel related. Blame Wintel if you wish too.

AFAIK no RTM is sent, is just an another RC.


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## freeagent (Oct 4, 2021)

I thought the discrepancy with Aida and L3 was because of win 11? Because my results look similar on the L3, but if I run 10 it’s normal.


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## P4-630 (Oct 4, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> Windows 11 Pro, latest update (Beta, release candidate .194) (fresh install after i first saw this issue)





> In our testing with pre-release builds of Windows 11, a feature called Virtualization-based Security (VBS) causes performance to drop. VBS is enabled by default after a clean install of Windows 11, but not when upgrading from Windows 10. This means the same system can get different benchmark scores depending on how Windows 11 was installed and whether VBS is enabled or not. We plan to add VBS detection to our benchmarks in a future update to help you compare scores fairly.








						UL benchmarks are ready for Windows 11
					

Find out more at benchmarks.ul.com




					benchmarks.ul.com
				




Maybe this has to do with your issue?









						Windows 11 General Discussion
					

Much appreciated




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Dr. Dro (Oct 4, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> You can open up the link in MDL forum, there are some game benchmarks as well.
> 
> Most bizarre thing is that if you do a virtual OS, the guest OS doesn't exhibit this bug anymore. It is more complicated than it seems and purely is windows kernel related. Blame Wintel if you wish too.
> 
> AFAIK no RTM is sent, is just an another RC.



Wow, that's news to me. If the VM is okay but the host OS isn't, then that's a pretty bizarre bug, my understanding was always that a VM's machine couldn't "exceed" what the host OS can technically do, the more you know... and yea build 22000 is pretty much it, the last few update packs have replaced most of the leftover bits that they were meant to change, and since launch is tomorrow, we might get another experience pack update on patch tuesday tomorrow but I would say that's about it, with as much confidence as I can. Cheers


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## Jdogdarkness (Oct 4, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Is the 5800X at completely stock settings?
> 
> A.84 (experimental 1203c) is still a beta BIOS isn't it? I'm still on A.30 on my Unify-X for that reason (stable 1203b). Might want to try A.70 with 1203b.
> 
> ...


Hey can you tell me more about what typenof symptoms you were experiencing when you had that Hynix DJR memory in with tour 5900x? I just sent back my 5900x. I was having cache problems. Particularly L2 and L3. So anything you can tell me would be appreciated. 

 *For others trying to fix this problem, i found adjusting voltage for CCD, IOD, and CLDO could negate the problems. Also even V core has an effect on L3 and L1 cache throughout.


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## OneMoar (Oct 4, 2021)

AIDA is bugged under Windows 11
Do nothing wait for Either AIDA or windows 11 update 
./thread


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## windwhirl (Oct 4, 2021)

The AIDA64 L3 cache issue happens in all Dev channel builds of Windows 10 and 11 since at least months ago, if not years. Not sure about Beta, but it's possible those are affected too.


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## ThrashZone (Oct 4, 2021)

Hi,
Just the high latency on amd shows some feilds and maybe the entire aida64 suite shouldn't be taken seriously lol


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## windwhirl (Oct 4, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Just the high latency on amd shows some feilds and maybe the entire aida64 suite shouldn't be taken seriously lol


This only happens on Dev builds, RTM releases are fine. I know, I tested this before.


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## ThrashZone (Oct 4, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> This only happens on Dev builds, RTM releases are fine. I know, I tested this before.


Hi,
So amd latency isn't above 50 ? love to see it lower if so otherwise yeah aida64 is full of it
Probably one of the worst stability test too.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 4, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> i don't know how long you guys are following MSIs Bios distribution for AMD but EVERY SINGLE LATEST BIOS will be called "Beta" until the next one arrives.
> then it gets its beta tag removed. (like the previous one which was beta until A84 released.)
> 
> my PC takes ages to boot, shutdown and some games are barely playable.
> ...



AGESA is one thing. Vendor implementation is another. I've seen BIOSes being severely botched by a specific vendor (Gigabyte and MSI) on multiple occasions, where the same AGESA revision in a different board works just fine, because the other vendor didn't fuck it up. Latest instance was Gigabyte's handling of 1203b on my ITX board.

My point was that release BIOSes are less likely to have outstanding bugs. But I guess the L3 bench results is just a zen3 x win11 thing.

Perhaps the stuttering is actually a separate issue, hence my concern about the memory and slightly high dram latency for your setup. Copy is also on the low side for 3600 16-19-19, on the CJR kit I've never had copy below 51GB/s on 3700X and 5900X.

AIDA can be an awful gauge of actual memory performance, but it's easy to run something else like membench or LinX. R/W and latency in membench shouldn't be far off.

Question hasn't changed. Have you tried the current stable BIOS or not?





Jdogdarkness said:


> Hey can you tell me more about what typenof symptoms you were experiencing when you had that Hynix DJR memory in with tour 5900x? I just sent back my 5900x. I was having cache problems. Particularly L2 and L3. So anything you can tell me would be appreciated.
> 
> *For others trying to fix this problem, i found adjusting voltage for CCD, IOD, and CLDO could negate the problems. Also even V core has an effect on L3 and L1 cache throughout.



CJR not DJR, although they are fundamentally similar and I have no exp with DJR. It wasn't to do with cache, it was memory-related, but the stuttering symptoms are similar that's why I mentioned it. I don't want to hijack gerkng's thread, so I'll just link my explanation in my thread:









						(Anti) SFF fun house
					

What is the volume of that tiny HT5 baby computer vs the ceberus? Make me wanna finish up my little case build but I am broke... How you got a 5900x? These things are so rare now! The current global chip shortage is not helping it too.  I know I should complain with my workstation laptop that is...




					www.techpowerup.com
				











						(Anti) SFF fun house
					

What is the volume of that tiny HT5 baby computer vs the ceberus? Make me wanna finish up my little case build but I am broke... How you got a 5900x? These things are so rare now! The current global chip shortage is not helping it too.  I know I should complain with my workstation laptop that is...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## freeagent (Oct 4, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Probably one of the worst stability test too.


I can agree to that.


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## ThrashZone (Oct 4, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I can agree to that.


Hi,
Yes it's just something to play with nothing more only paid 4.us on ebay for a cheap key.


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## freeagent (Oct 4, 2021)

I just use it for mem bandwidth and latency.. ball park numbers. That L3 has never been consistent for me with AMD. Probably because it’s all boosty and stuff


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## ThrashZone (Oct 4, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I just use it for mem bandwidth and latency.. ball park numbers. That L3 has never been consistent for me with AMD. Probably because it’s all boosty and stuff


Hi,
Reminds me of a limbo contest how low can you go lol


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## freeagent (Oct 4, 2021)

Wow that is amazing lol.. it’s a long way to the top if you want to make it in life


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## R-T-B (Oct 4, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> AIDA is bugged under Windows 11
> Do nothing wait for Either AIDA or windows 11 update
> ./thread


Happens across any software that benches l3 cache.

It seems to be a beta branch bug specific to AMD.


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## OneMoar (Oct 4, 2021)

The Schedular on AMD is broken leading to incorrect results when benchmarking
its been a known issue since June, ball is in amds court to fix it


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## Mussels (Oct 4, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> OP living under a rock, yet he is brave enough to use beta software.
> 
> First place one has to search these things is Feedback Hub and upvote it.
> 
> It is a known issue. Dev builds do not suffer from it, only beta so far. Wait for the final release otherwise.


Final W11 is out today, a day early.

Hell i'm on W11 and didn't know about this (i'm on Dev)


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## OneMoar (Oct 4, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Final W11 is out today, a day early.
> 
> Hell i'm on W11 and didn't know about this (i'm on Dev)


22000.194 IS RTM but rollup update probly wont release until tomarrow or next week


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 5, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Final W11 is out today, a day early.
> 
> Hell i'm on W11 and didn't know about this (i'm on Dev)



Don't update if you are on AMD, the bug is still present. 

You can thank anyone using beta and not doing proper feedback in the hub, thus the problem is acknowledged faster and gains more traction.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 5, 2021)

You all are correct, it is just a Win 11 thing. DRAM results look identical to Win 10 though, so point still stands @GerKNG, might be worth looking into the RAM a bit to see if that's responsible for the poor game performance/consistency. So far no issues in gaming performance for me on Win 11, exact same as Win 10.

Other CPU benches are benching about the same as Win 10 as well, so if I had to guess like the APU half L3 bug it's another AIDA-specific eccentricity that'll be patched for the sake of being patched and doesn't really relate to performance. AIDA also hasn't been updated in half a year, maybe the fix will roll out alongside Alder Lake support.

I hope MS has a day 1 patch lined up for tomorrow's launch though, it is Tuesday after all. Have come across a couple of little bugs/errors/missing stuff here and there on 22000.194, but nothing major.


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## windwhirl (Oct 5, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I hope MS has a day 1 patch lined up for tomorrow's launch though, it is Tuesday after all.


It's not the second Tuesday of the month, so probably not


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## Bomby569 (Oct 5, 2021)

Microsoft is making you beta test the new OS.


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## GerKNG (Oct 6, 2021)

nevermind.
fresh windows 11 pro installation, tried the last three bios versions.
cache is back to 48GB/s and performance is just awful.
tried to play the Battlefield 2042 Beta with a friend (he has a 9600k and a 3070 and runs the game (at 1080p) at around 140-150 FPS where we both stand side by side.
i have around 20-80 FPS (FPS are all over the place) with crazy stutter, audio cut outs and a crash after around 10 minutes.
i'll throw AMD out of my system and go back to my 10900k... i'm done with the constant BS around AMD.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 6, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> nevermind.
> fresh windows 11 pro installation, tried the last three bios versions.
> cache is back to 48GB/s and performance is just awful.
> tried to play the Battlefield 2042 Beta with a friend (he has a 9600k and a 3070 and runs the game (at 1080p) at around 140-150 FPS where we both stand side by side.
> ...



Sorry to hear that. Hope the 10900K performs well on Win 11. Will you still be using the CJR kit on Intel? The DRAM latency is even higher than your last bench result - as far as I can see Win 11 shouldn't have major issues with DRAM performance at least, so it seems like something is terribly weird either with that kit or the way the board firmware is configuring XMP/minor voltages/other. Read and copy both low and latency kinda obscenely high for CJR 16-19-19.

Mind sharing a Zentimings screenie for your current settings?


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## GerKNG (Oct 6, 2021)

This is not a "Windows 11 issue"
it happens since weeks and under windows 10 too.

i used the same ram and only switched to a 10900k in a z490 unify.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 6, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> This is not a "Windows 11 issue"
> it happens since weeks and under windows 10 too.
> 
> View attachment 219678



I know, I can vaguely recall reading somewhere that it's been giving you similar issues for a while now.

Timings seem fine for loose XMP but both VDDGs are outrageously out of line. Both derive from VSOC so they should be set at least 0.04-0.05V below "real" (get) VSOC. Even assuming 1.1V VSOC (which shouldn't really be necessary), CCD can probably make do at 1.0V or below (I run 0.95V at 3600). IOD can be brought up a bit to support IF if necessary, but still should not be over 1.05V at most in this case (I also run 0.95V at 3600, 1.06V at 3800, and used to 1.05V on my 3700X).

Are these auto settings for MSI? That's pretty surprising, MSI Asus and GB are all usually pretty good with these auto rules for minor voltages. iirc any VDDG or VDDP appearing to exceed VSOC is physically impossible and just means that the board is using some hidden number it's not telling you.


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## GerKNG (Oct 6, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> I know, I can vaguely recall reading somewhere that it's been giving you similar issues for a while now.
> 
> Timings seem fine for loose XMP but both VDDGs are outrageously out of line. Both derive from VSOC so they should be set at least 0.04-0.05V below "real" (get) VSOC. Even assuming 1.1V VSOC (which shouldn't really be necessary), CCD can probably make do at 1.0V or below (I run 0.95V at 3600). IOD can be brought up a bit to support IF if necessary, but still should not be over 1.05V at most in this case.
> 
> Are these auto settings for MSI? That's pretty surprising, MSI Asus and GB are all usually pretty good with these auto rules for minor voltages. iirc any VDDG or VDDP appearing to exceed VSOC is physically impossible and just means that the board is using some hidden number it's not telling you.


it's just XMP and a a -20 Curve Optimizer across all cores.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 6, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> it's just XMP and a a -20 Curve Optimizer across all cores.



Could try 1.0V for both VDDGs without changing anything else, shouldn't hurt.

Is that -20 all cores actually verified stable through OCCT or corecycler, or just felt stable in games? @freeagent is finding that Windows 11 is tougher on unstable CO settings than 10.


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## GerKNG (Oct 6, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> Could try 1.0V for both VDDGs without changing anything else, shouldn't hurt.
> 
> Is that -20 all cores actually verified stable through OCCT or corecycler, or just felt stable in games? @freeagent is finding that Windows 11 is tougher on unstable CO settings than 10.


i run this since over 6 months, it is prime stable and ran core cycler over night.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 6, 2021)

Double check if you disable Core Isolation also. Also check other exploit protection settings.

It also would be great to tame down drama and emotions.

From my experience -20 to all cores is the culprit of your problems and it will hinder the CPU of boosting high enough for the best cores. Revert everything, factory default BIOS and boot a fresh OS. Start from scratch.


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## GerKNG (Oct 6, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> Double check if you disable Core Isolation also. Also check other exploit protection settings.
> 
> It also would be great to tame down drama and emotions.
> 
> From my experience -20 to all cores is the culprit of your problems and it will hinder the CPU of boosting high enough for the best cores. Revert everything, factory default BIOS and boot a fresh OS. Start from scratch.


stock or not does not change anything. (tested it already)
with -20 i get around 4.8 Ghz all core in games. performance is slightly better than stock.

there is no core isolation available without virtualization (which is disabled)

and there is no "drama" i am just pissed that every time when there is a problem over the last 10 years it is caused by a product from AMD.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 6, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> stock or not does not change anything. (tested it already)
> with -20 i get around 4.8 Ghz all core in games. performance is slightly better than stock.
> 
> there is no core isolation available without virtualization (which is disabled)
> ...



Why you even think AMD is at fault here not Microsoft? Does AMD have their source code?

I do not believe you stating that the performance is better using -20, you may getter better multicore score, but way worse single, not seeing boost to 5.1GHz+ and that matters, also I do not believe it is PRIME stable. I have the same CPU and no issues whatsoever.
What power budget settings are you using? Any other speedup settings?


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## GerKNG (Oct 6, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> Why you even think AMD is at fault here not Microsoft? Does AMD have their source code?
> 
> I do not believe you stating that the performance is better using -20, you may getter better multicore score, but way worse single, not seeing boost to 5.1GHz+ and that matters, also I do not believe it is PRIME stable. I have the same CPU and no issues whatsoever.
> What power budget settings are you using? Any other speedup settings?


never said it's AMDs fault.

-20, stock PPT/EDC/TDC.
it is stable in everything (i have three 5800Xs this is my best one)

when i run R6 Siege for example at 360p to completely limit the FPS by the CPU i get around 805 in the benchmark and with -20 ~ 830 FPS.
Cinebench multicore is higher, single core a bit (because it sits at 4850 instead of ~ 4800-4825)

the curve optimizer does not "lower your single core performance" that's caused by a way too high powerlimit.

and i am not here to discuss an overclock. i have a problem with Ryzen that MANY other people have too. (just google Ryzen L3 cache and even then without being specific the first posts are about the same problem)

it happens with windows 10, windows 11, stock, overclocked. with different ram. on a different motherboard.
and it happens since the AGESA 1.2.0.3b constantly. and sometimes before that.


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## R-T-B (Oct 6, 2021)

Yeah, only happening with me on 11.  10 is fine.  AGESA, 1.2.0.3c

Also 11 dev builds are fine.

I personally don't see any effect in games.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 6, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> never said it's AMDs fault.
> 
> -20, stock PPT/EDC/TDC.
> it is stable in everything (i have three 5800Xs this is my best one)
> ...



Well OK. Leaving the OC issues aside. From your specs I understood you have a 5950X not a 5800X. On that CPU you may be lucky enough to do -20 on all core. OK that's clarified.

Well... shoot me... I have no problems. I agree I had to tinker around my RAM settings as it is first gen DDR4 and doesn't work on anything with stock timings. But after that. Just PBO settings, testing your limits and be PRIME stable.

Btw the more funny thing. If you do virtual OS when your host is Win10 the and guest the bugged Win11 the problem also disappears. It is a tough cookie. But as we see in Insider Hub, M$ is looking into it and it is not left unnoticed.


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## freeagent (Oct 6, 2021)

Really weird that you are having catastrophic performance problems like that even doing the most basic of tasks.


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## Mussels (Oct 6, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> This is not a "Windows 11 issue"
> it happens since weeks and under windows 10 too.
> 
> i used the same ram and only switched to a 10900k in a z490 unify.
> View attachment 219678


If you have these problems in multiple OS and software doesnt solve it, you've got a hardware problem

Have you done anything he hasnt, like enable Rebar in the BIOS, or changed the GPU scheduler in windows? Those definitely screw with some games
Hell even default Gsync/Freesync settings


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## OneMoar (Oct 6, 2021)

wayyy to many people in this thread confusing a issue with AIDA with there borked hardware config
./closethis


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## windwhirl (Oct 6, 2021)

AMD has posted an article on this


			https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-400
		


Windows® 11 Performance Variation in Certain Applications on Compatible AMD Processors​Article Number
PA-400
This documentation provides information on known performance impacts reported on Windows® 11 when running compatible AMD processors on certain applications.
Issue Description​AMD and Microsoft have determined that compatible AMD processors may exhibit reduced performance in certain applications when running Windows® 11.  

Known Performance Changes​Impact​Resolution​Measured and functional L3 cache latency may increase by ~3X. 
Applications sensitive to memory subsystem access time may be impacted.
Expected performance impact of 3-5% in affected applications, 10-15% outliers possible in games commonly used for eSports.

A Windows update is in development to address this issue with expected availability in October of 2021. 
UEFI CPPC2 (“preferred core”) may not preferentially schedule threads on a processor’s fastest core.
Applications sensitive to the performance of one or a few CPU threads may exhibit reduced performance.
Performance impact may be more detectable in >8-core processors above 65W TDP.

A software update is in development to address this issue with expected availability in October of 2021.


Additional Information and Workaround​AMD and Microsoft are actively investigating these known issues for resolution via software updates. This knowledge base article will be updated to include version numbers and delivery vehicle(s) when they are available. In the interim, customers using compatible AMD processors affected by these issues may continue to use a supported version of Windows® 10.


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## Deleted member 212040 (Oct 6, 2021)

Meanwhile on Arch Linux:






Sub 10ns, and that memory latency is with all my stuff open + compiling a kernel in the background


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## Mussels (Oct 7, 2021)

This has made many news sites as a windows 11 bug
One of the releases said its the worst on 8 core, 65W CPU's. No explanation why that is.
(Ah, windwhirls thing above covers it)

It's fixed in the dev channel, so the fix is coming to the main release soon enough


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## Jdogdarkness (Oct 11, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> AIDA is bugged under Windows 11
> Do nothing wait for Either AIDA or windows 11 update
> ./thread


I have windows 10 though. =/ 
I would write off AIDA's results but it seems to line up with when i experience game problems. Games that are memory intensive is where i see the problem present itself most clearly. At around 14Gbps I see the problems. Its like the CPU isn't able to pass along data fast enough or isn't being fed data fast enough. I lean towards the CPU


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## windwhirl (Oct 12, 2021)

Jdogdarkness said:


> I have windows 10 though


Which version of Windows 10? Please provide full version number (you may find that in Settings, System, About). Mostly to know if this specific bug somehow made its way there or not.

Also, there was an older issue involving the cache, that got fixed through BIOS updates.
My motherboard fixed that back in March:


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## GerKNG (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> From your specs I understood you have a 5950X not a 5800X.


i own the whole zen 3 lineup (some CPUs multiple times)

but i have an update.
i reinstalled windows 10 and 11 again. (second time) and the two pictures are the results (Win 10 test was actually with steam, spotify, Logitech G Hub and Dropbox open)

since it's a known windows 11/AMD Issue now i'll stick to windows 10 for now since Windows 11 feels more like a very early beta rather than a full product.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Oct 12, 2021)

My 3200g is loosing a bit of performance under windows 11 could this be a similar problem
talking like game running at 40 fps (average) instead of 60


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 12, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Which version of Windows 10? Please provide full version number (you may find that in Settings, System, About). Mostly to know if this specific bug somehow made its way there or not.
> 
> Also, there was an older issue involving the cache, that got fixed through BIOS updates.
> My motherboard fixed that back in March:



That was in march. It was OS agnostic actually and for non ASUS boards. ASUS boards incorporated some tweaks, that are actually crap, but because of that was immune to that bug.


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Now that I tested it, should the L3 be this slow on a 3600?


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 12, 2021)

Jill Christine Valentine said:


> Now that I tested it, should the L3 be this slow on a 3600?



40.9ns shows it.

It should be in the tenths 1x ns

Btw. Do some benchmarking now, leave numbers, after some updates compare, if it really did slow down other apps. So far AIDA and Sandra synthetics are the obvious culprits showing dramatic differences.


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> 40.9ns shows it.
> 
> It should be in the tenths 1x ns
> 
> Btw. Do some benchmarking now, leave numbers, after some updates compare, if it really did slow down other apps. So far AIDA and Sandra synthetics are the obvious culprits showing dramatic differences.


I have crap on background tho... just jumped from CS to windows just to check TPU and saw this thread etc.


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## Mussels (Oct 12, 2021)

Jdogdarkness said:


> I have windows 10 though. =/
> I would write off AIDA's results but it seems to line up with when i experience game problems. Games that are memory intensive is where i see the problem present itself most clearly. At around 14Gbps I see the problems. Its like the CPU isn't able to pass along data fast enough or isn't being fed data fast enough. I lean towards the CPU


There was a similar bug with certain AGESA versions.

You haven't filled out your system specs, what motherboard, BIOS and CPU do you have


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Mussels said:


> There was a similar bug with certain AGESA versions.
> 
> You haven't filled out your system specs, what motherboard, BIOS and CPU do you have


Thanks for reminding, my board has also got a bios update. I'll install that later.


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## eidairaman1 (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> You can open up the link in MDL forum, there are some game benchmarks as well.
> 
> Most bizarre thing is that if you do a virtual OS, the guest OS doesn't exhibit this bug anymore. It is more complicated than it seems and purely is windows kernel related. Blame Wintel if you wish too.
> 
> AFAIK no RTM is sent, is just an another RC.


RTM/RC are still Betas


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

I have a B450 GAMING PLUS, waiting msi and amd to fix this. Any news if manufactures started releasing bios to fix this issue in windows 11?


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> I have a B450 GAMING PLUS, waiting msi and amd to fix this. Any news if manufactures started releasing bios to fix this issue in windows 11?


Hard to say. I also installed Win11 yesterday and overall performance seems to be similar to what it was on Win10.


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

Jill Christine Valentine said:


> Hard to say. I also installed Win11 yesterday and overall performance seems to be similar to what it was on Win10.



I'm using the latest bios MSI has provided for my board, everything works good so far however there are few strange issues time to time, some software shut my computer off, strange indeed, not sure if this is related to the l3 cache or something else. Aida64 itself shut down my pc when conducting the memory benchmark, memory is very stable on other stability software, temperature is also not an issue.


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> I'm using the latest bios MSI has provided for my board, everything works good so far however there are few strange issues time to time, some software shut my computer off, strange indeed, not sure if this is related to the l3 cache or something else. Aida64 itself shut down my pc when conducting the memory benchmark, memory is very stable on other stability software, temperature is also not an issue.


Sounds hella weird. Can't be sure what causes that but that's everything but normal behavior.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> I'm using the latest bios MSI has provided for my board, everything works good so far however there are few strange issues time to time, some software shut my computer off, strange indeed, not sure if this is related to the l3 cache or something else. Aida64 itself shut down my pc when conducting the memory benchmark, memory is very stable on other stability software, temperature is also not an issue.



It maybe be stable on stress, full load. Problems with bad OC using PBO that because Win11 doesn't boost the right cores it stresses out poor OC or even default motherboard settings that are often not so default at all, and not the instability on full load but on medium no or weak load, ie the voltage is not enough for some bad cores. Sudden death, without bsod is usually culprit for not enough voltage.



Jill Christine Valentine said:


> Sounds hella weird. Can't be sure what causes that but that's everything but normal behavior.



It ain't.


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

Jill Christine Valentine said:


> Sounds hella weird. Can't be sure what causes that but that's everything but normal behavior.



yes, now i'm afraid to use that aida64 again, for memory and cpu stability I used this program occt https://www.ocbase.com/


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> yes, now i'm afraid to use that aida64 again, for memory and cpu stability I used this program occt https://www.ocbase.com/


I use Testmem5 for checking memory OC stability, normally I'm paranoid with Russian software but that works like a charm.


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> It maybe be stable on stress, full load. Problems with bad OC using PBO that because Win11 doesn't boost the right cores it stresses out poor OC or even default motherboard settings that are often not so default at all, and not the instability on full load but on medium no or weak load, ie the voltage is not enough for some bad cores. Sudden death, without bsod is usually culprit for not enough voltage.



Well for what is worth, cpu is at default settings, no overclocking at all. I used to let it overclocked to 4.5ghz all cores but as I needed a better single core performance, so I let mine 5900x at default to get up to 4.8ghz.


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> Well for what is worth, cpu is at default settings, no overclocking at all. I used to let it overclocked to 4.5ghz all cores but as I needed a better single core performance, so I let mine 5900x at default to get up to 4.8ghz.


Yeah OC'ing Ryzens is kinda meh, I just have PBO +200 on my 3600 instead of manual OC. Boosts up to 4300 nicely.


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

Jill Christine Valentine said:


> Yeah OC'ing Ryzens is kinda meh, I just have PBO +200 on my 3600 instead of manual OC. Boosts up to 4300 nicely.



I never used pbo, always manual overclocking, people used to say that pbo is bad, I guess it might have been in the past, they may have fixed some issues it had when it came out, going to try that , thanks.


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## Kissamies (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> I never used pbo, always manual overclocking, people used to say that pbo is bad, I guess it might have been in the past, they may have fixed some issues it had when it came out, going to try that , thanks.


I guess people think that it's bad as it uses high voltages but in light loads = no worries. If it would use those 1.4V+ on heavy loads, we would had hella lot of dead Ryzens. 

edit: This went at 4400 without problems but I rather use PBO..


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> Well for what is worth, cpu is at default settings, no overclocking at all. I used to let it overclocked to 4.5ghz all cores but as I needed a better single core performance, so I let mine 5900x at default to get up to 4.8ghz.



These days there are no no overclocking as such, the the board and CPU always does it for you and is included by default and you call it boost, thus the updates are even coming. Leaving Auto often introduces unwanted results.

Ryzen OC is done normally only with PBO, otherwise you break all the thing that makes the CPU better, most just doesn't know how to do it, because it takes hell of a lot of time to do per core adjustments.

Thinking that default is default for certain motherboard makers is utterly wrong. Some do even overvolt the CPU for the sake stability and less RMA or notoriously stupid VRM design as it is slow to react, it is very board specific and each has to find their own solution.


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

Jill Christine Valentine said:


> I guess people think that it's bad as it uses high voltages but in light loads = no worries. If it would use those 1.4V+ on heavy loads, we would had hella lot of dead Ryzens.
> 
> edit: This went at 4400 without problems but I rather use PBO..



Funny, not sure if is an issue, but on windows 10, my 5900x used to get up to 4.8 but in windows 11 it only reaches 4.6 max, just checked, temperature is at 62c, there is no reason to hold it back like that. I will try pbo then.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 12, 2021)

Metroid said:


> Funny, not sure if is an issue, but on windows 10, my 5900x used to get up to 4.8 but in windows 11 it only reaches 4.6 max, just checked, temperature is at 62c, there is no reason to hold it back like that.



Known issue dude... do you read the news? UEFI CPPC2 (“preferred core”) does not work for now. Welcome to the extended beta test.

You can blame The beta testers who don't properly report and file problems to Microsoft as the problem didn't gain enough traction during the Win11 preview.


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## Metroid (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> Known issue dude... do you read the news? UEFI CPPC2 (“preferred core”) does not work for now. Welcome to the extended beta test.
> 
> You can blame The beta testers who don't properly report and file problems to Microsoft as the problem didn't gain enough traction during the Win11 preview.



Yeah I read that, even though I read that, I completely forgot about that. When you said it, I then remembered it, reason I said if motherboards manufactures issued a new bios in order to fix that, I had checked mine and the bios is not out yet. So basically right now, manual overclocking is the best case scenario in my case. I have been playing overclocking it manually, got up to 4.6ghz 1.25 all cores, better than default for sure, anyway, doing some stability tests.


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## fb020997 (Oct 12, 2021)

Disclaimer: the 10 part of the photo is from around 3-4 months ago, and 3 UEFIs back. But it was the only one I had for 10, and subsequent UEFIs didn’t change the scores that much in 10.
As you can see, with my rig, my L3 is awful in write and copy, and bad in read and latency.
The thing is, BTW, I play at 1080p75 max settings, since my oldie but goldie Vega 64 can’t do more and I have a cheap monitor, and I didn’t notice anything strange in 11 vs 10.

EDIT: Despite having a prehistorically old Aida (for running both OSs with the same Aida), nothing significant changed with the latest one, same bad L3 results.


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## HD64G (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> Known issue dude... do you read the news? UEFI CPPC2 (“preferred core”) does not work for now. Welcome to the extended beta test.
> 
> You can blame The beta testers who don't properly report and file problems to Microsoft as the problem didn't gain enough traction during the Win11 preview.


Why should you blame anyone but MS themselves? They named as win11 a major incoming update of win10. Win11 should work with all hw combos as well as win10 since they have the same kernel. MS changed something and totally broke the working almost well cpu scheduler ONLY for Ryzen CPUs and I am not sure it was an accident now that AL is around the corner. There is no excuse of this mess.


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## Ferrum Master (Oct 12, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Why should you blame anyone but MS themselves? They named as win11 a major incoming update of win10. Win11 should work with all hw combos as well as win10 since they have the same kernel. MS changed something and totally broke the working almost well cpu scheduler ONLY for Ryzen CPUs and I am not sure it was an accident now that AL is around the corner. There is no excuse of this mess.



Imagine the zoo of hardware M$ has to test. It ain't closed walled Apple with few devices. It is hard to blame them.

They mostly code on VM's not on real machines. This specific bug exposes only on bare metal, the whole beta testing attitude is rather funny sometimes. Like whining in some random forum will ever help.


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## jayjr1105 (Oct 12, 2021)

I have similar very poor L3 results with Windows 11.  Is there a fix out soon or what?  How does everyone not have the Trial version of AIDA64?  Are you guys actually buying the software?


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## freeagent (Oct 12, 2021)

I’ve had a key for like 17 years..


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## windwhirl (Oct 12, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I’ve had a key for like 17 years..


Those are lifetime? Seriously asking.


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## freeagent (Oct 12, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Those are lifetime? Seriously asking.


You betcha


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## seth1911 (Oct 12, 2021)

Poor L3 Cache 60-80 GB/s


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## windwhirl (Oct 12, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Why should you blame anyone but MS themselves?


And I'd argue that to a point the blame rests mostly on the CEO and bean counters that decided to cut the resources for QA.



HD64G said:


> MS changed something and totally broke the working almost well cpu scheduler ONLY for Ryzen CPUs


Yeah, that's strange as hell. Why or how they broke the Ryzen part of the scheduler I have no idea. It's too damn suspicious, and I don't really like to don the tinfoil hat or whatever.



Ferrum Master said:


> This specific bug exposes only on bare metal, the whole beta testing attitude is rather funny sometimes. Like whining in some random forum will ever help.


And when I discovered the bug I reported it. Can't do much more than that, I'm not Nadella's neighbor.


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## seth1911 (Oct 12, 2021)

Good a long time ago beta testers got money for that and now u got a temeltric OS and play for free beta testers, thanks to you all.

Greentings a Win 10 LTSC 1809 User (Without Consumer Temeletry, Cortana and Store crap)


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## RJARRRPCGP (Oct 12, 2021)

Ferrum Master said:


> It maybe be stable on stress, full load. Problems with bad OC using PBO that because Win11 doesn't boost the right cores it stresses out poor OC or even default motherboard settings that are often not so default at all, and not the instability on full load but on medium no or weak load, ie the voltage is not enough for some bad cores. Sudden death, without bsod is usually culprit for not enough voltage.


I often get "IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL" BSOD with not enough Vcore. Sometimes, it just crashes, like you said.


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## Mussels (Oct 13, 2021)

To all the people still making a fuss about this:




AMD Ryzen CPU's L3 Latency Performance Fix To Be Resolved By Microsoft Through Windows 11 Update on 19th October, CPPC Driver on 21st (wccftech.com)


Yes it's an issue. But it's a known one with a fix already existing on the dev branch and a known release date.
Use 10, or deal with it. I see no issues with gaming on 11 despite being hit by this.


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## R-T-B (Oct 13, 2021)

Mussels said:


> To all the people still making a fuss about this:
> 
> View attachment 220566
> AMD Ryzen CPU's L3 Latency Performance Fix To Be Resolved By Microsoft Through Windows 11 Update on 19th October, CPPC Driver on 21st (wccftech.com)
> ...


That's nice, just after Intel reviews hit, right?  If so, wtf...


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## jayjr1105 (Oct 22, 2021)

How is this?


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## Bomby569 (Oct 22, 2021)

so is it solved?


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## jayjr1105 (Oct 22, 2021)

Bomby569 said:


> so is it solved?


For the most part.  Some claim bandwidth is still a little low.


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## windwhirl (Oct 22, 2021)

Bomby569 said:


> so is it solved?


Provided you received the required updates (Windows update + chipset driver update), it should be.


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## Dr. Dro (Oct 22, 2021)

jayjr1105 said:


> For the most part.  Some claim bandwidth is still a little low.



Yeah, this is my experience as well. The bandwidth and latency actually varies quite a bit, between 60-75 ns memory and 300 GB/s to almost 1 TB/s on the L3. It's kind of wobbly.

One run I get this:





Just for the very next, get this:





and then it's suddenly fine again. Performance is noticeably improved, though. AMD also released a chipset driver update to address the UEFI CPPC2/core scheduling issue.


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## outpt (Oct 23, 2021)

on w11 and i don't know what to thank of AIDA64.last night my L3 cache was ~660 today
going to put aida 64 in the toilet.


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## Dr. Dro (Oct 23, 2021)

outpt said:


> on w11 and i don't know what to thank of AIDA64.last night my L3 cache was ~660 today
> going to put aida 64 in the toilet.



AIDA is not the problem, as far as I can tell. It's Windows itself, and the performance hit does seem to affect other applications, however mild that hit might be. We might see more performance fixes coming in the future.


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