# Razer Tomahawk Mini-ITX... flaw?



## wheresmycar (Oct 12, 2020)

I've been eyeing up the Li Lian TU150 for some time now, primarily for the bottom air intake to keep the GPU running cool and quiet + desiring my first slick looking Mini-ITX. The downside being, no top fan exhaust and I can't help it, I fancy some RGB fans floating about.

Then i found a God-send perfect solution... the recent announcement of the "Razer Tomahawk Mini-ITX" with top fan mounts and hinged tempered glass on both sides (yummy) and maintaining a similar form factor. https://d1lss44hh2trtw.cloudfront.n...pc-chassis-announced-at-razercon-2020-itx.jpg

2 days later, drooling over the images again, i was wandering how the case manages PSU exhaust if the back panel is full-glass (no perforated vents). On closer look it seems like it's blowing hot air inside the case. Am i seeing this correctly? https://www.notebookcheck.net/filea...90918678558_razer_tomahawk_m1_1500x1000_4.jpg

Please tell me Razor came up with a "great" solution which has evaded my first (or second) impressions or PSU's magically no longer generate a good deal of heat. Or, somewhere workably in-between for well-dressed thermal performance, otherwise i'm going to bed like an exasperated 5 year old kid.


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## xBruce88x (Oct 12, 2020)

inteake/exhaust seems balanced in terms of number of fans... 1 front plus 2 bottom intake, 1 rear plus 2 top exhaust through rad. seeing where the psu is mounted.. .yes heat goes into the system but its mid/high and closer to the exhaust. the amount of heat will depend on the wattage and of course efficiency of the unit. when it comes to itx, i usually prefer at least some of the gpu heat going out the back. the feet seem high enough on the case to get a decent amount of air into the case. so yes... hot air from the psu will go into the system but i don't think it'll be bad enough to cause major thermal issues, especially with it placed close to the exhaust. maybe a duct or partition could be added over the psu.


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## Khonjel (Oct 12, 2020)

There's also Cooler Master NR200. Take a look at that.


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## Vario (Oct 12, 2020)

I liked the Cooler Master Elite 130.  Very practical design rather than a looker, but it cools well, it's built well, it's cheap, and it's extremely compact.
Probably not your pick though if you want window and RGB.


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## Khonjel (Oct 12, 2020)

Vario said:


> I liked the Cooler Master Elite 130.  Very practical design rather than a looker, but it cools well, it's built well, it's cheap, and it's extremely compact.


Isn't that very old? Or am I remembering a different case?


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## Vario (Oct 12, 2020)

Khonjel said:


> Isn't that very old? Or am I remembering a different case?


It is but its still sold.


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## Caring1 (Oct 13, 2020)

A number of SFF cases mount the PSU in a similar fashion with no reported problems with heat.


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## wheresmycar (Oct 13, 2020)

xBruce88x said:


> inteake/exhaust seems balanced in terms of number of fans... 1 front plus 2 bottom intake, 1 rear plus 2 top exhaust through rad. seeing where the psu is mounted.. .yes heat goes into the system but its mid/high and closer to the exhaust. the amount of heat will depend on the wattage and of course efficiency of the unit. when it comes to itx, i usually prefer at least some of the gpu heat going out the back. the feet seem high enough on the case to get a decent amount of air into the case. so yes... hot air from the psu will go into the system but i don't think it'll be bad enough to cause major thermal issues, especially with it placed close to the exhaust. maybe a duct or partition could be added over the psu.





Caring1 said:


> A number of SFF cases mount the PSU in a similar fashion with no reported problems with heat.



I'm glad this sort of thing works.

I've never seen/come across a case which feeds power supply exhaust internally hence a little startled. I have seen a couple of PSU's in SSFs intaking internally and exhausting from a side panel/etc.



Khonjel said:


> There's also Cooler Master NR200. Take a look at that.



Absolutely loved that case but came at a little disappointment for me. Same story... saw optimum tech's review, got real excited, checked the specs and realised both of my 2 beefy air coolers don't fit the NR200p's cooler clearance profile. I was considering buying a new one... but can't shake off my scythe mugen 5's aesthetic/performance/cool as ice acoustics. Or simply put, a masculine looking cooler for a not so masculine looking man hehe.

TBH considering the price-point, rather than paying more for Razer brand tax or RGB, i'm also considering NR200P + compatible cooler



Vario said:


> I liked the Cooler Master Elite 130.  Very practical design rather than a looker, but it cools well, it's built well, it's cheap, and it's extremely compact.
> Probably not your pick though if you want window and RGB.



yep it's sad... nowadays i see myself favouring tempered glass, RGB, uniform colour/themes, etc. Not the most cost effective way forward and sometimes having to compromise on performance/thermals. What is the world coming to.


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## Turmania (Oct 13, 2020)

Sg13 is a legend and cheap.


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## Khonjel (Oct 14, 2020)

wheresmycar said:


> Absolutely loved that case but came at a little disappointment for me. Same story... saw optimum tech's review, got real excited, checked the specs and realised both of my 2 beefy air coolers don't fit the NR200p's cooler clearance profile. I was considering buying a new one... but can't shake off my scythe mugen 5's aesthetic/performance/cool as ice acoustics. Or simply put, a masculine looking cooler for a not so masculine looking man hehe.
> 
> TBH considering the price-point, rather than paying more for Razer brand tax or RGB, i'm also considering NR200P + compatible cooler


Well check again. Hardware Canucks were able to put in a Hyper 212 Evo which is 158mm height-wise inside it. Don't give too much credence to official height restriction figures. Case manufacturers usually do 5-10mm to spare. A better way to check clearance is to check builds in e.g. PcPartPicker and confirm that people have been able to put similar or higher height CPU coolers in the cases.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 14, 2020)

wheresmycar said:


> I'm glad this sort of thing works.
> 
> I've never seen/come across a case which feeds power supply exhaust internally hence a little startled. I have seen a couple of PSU's in SSFs intaking internally and exhausting from a side panel/etc.
> 
> ...



If this is the Mugen 5 or 5B and the website is correct that it's at 154.5mm tall, then it'll fit just fine.

Reddit verified that the NH-U12A fits just fine with either the vented panel (NR200, NR200P) or the tempered glass panel (NR200P). The U12A is a 158mm tall cooler. The tempered glass panel does offer less clearance, but the U12A still fits just fine with a millimetre or two to spare. No contact.

As far as I am aware, there is no other mainstream production case like the NR200P if you're looking for 1) 120mm tower cooler compatibility, 2) conventional tower (aka NCASE M1) layout, 3) vertically oriented PSU in either orientation that allows it to exhaust upwards naturally, 4) volume that still fits under 20L, 5) tempered glass.

A vertically oriented PSU works extremely well in these conventionally laid-out SFF cases, as hot air naturally is allowed to rise and exit the case through the vented top panel. 

The Razer case makes zero sense as to the PSU placement. The TU150 is similar, but at least Lian Li offers a small vented area on the side panel adjacent to the PSU exhaust. Razer literally has the PSU exhausting onto glass. SFF builds already run hot during gaming with midrange-high end hardware, and a run of the mill, decent 550-650W Gold PSU will dump a fair bit of heat at 300W+ power draw.


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## wheresmycar (Oct 14, 2020)

Khonjel said:


> Well check again. Hardware Canucks were able to put in a Hyper 212 Evo which is 158mm height-wise inside it. Don't give too much credence to official height restriction figures. Case manufacturers usually do 5-10mm to spare. A better way to check clearance is to check builds in e.g. PcPartPicker and confirm that people have been able to put similar or higher height CPU coolers in the cases.





tabascosauz said:


> If this is the Mugen 5 or 5B and the website is correct that it's at 154.5mm tall, then it'll fit just fine.
> 
> Reddit verified that the NH-U12A fits just fine with either the vented panel (NR200, NR200P) or the tempered glass panel (NR200P). The U12A is a 158mm tall cooler. The tempered glass panel does offer less clearance, but the U12A still fits just fine with a millimetre or two to spare. No contact.
> 
> As far as I am aware, there is no other mainstream production case like the NR200P if you're looking for 1) 120mm tower cooler compatibility, 2) conventional tower (aka NCASE M1) layout, 3) vertically oriented PSU in either orientation that allows it to exhaust upwards naturally, 4) volume that still fits under 20L, 5) tempered glass.



Khonjel and Tabascosauz, 

.......immensely appreciated!!!

Checked user feedback (or completed builds) on pcpartpicker and found this: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/tQK48d 

Covert undisclosed headroom... this is government level conspiracies in full force. A little annoyed that I didn't know prior to sending the "all-amazing" NR200P to the subs bench. On top you guys just saved me £80. I'm definitely going the NR route although currently out of stock but doesn't matter I'm hoping to pull the trigger when Zen 3 and RTX 30/RDNA 2 hit the shelves



tabascosauz said:


> A vertically oriented PSU works extremely well in these conventionally laid-out SFF cases, as hot air naturally is allowed to rise and exit the case through the vented top panel.
> 
> The Razer case makes zero sense as to the PSU placement. The TU150 is similar, but at least Lian Li offers a small vented area on the side panel adjacent to the PSU exhaust. Razer literally has the PSU exhausting onto glass. SFF builds already run hot during gaming with midrange-high end hardware, and a run of the mill, decent 550-650W Gold PSU will dump a fair bit of heat at 300W+ power draw.



I have the same reservation. (as you rightly put) the front facing internal exhaust just didn't feel right even if thermals are workable (as suggested by others). In the least I would have waited for performance/thermal reviews before pulling the trigger. Doesn't matter anymore... the cooler fits, PSU exhaust up and out, PSU intake from back "vent", super nice reviews for GPU/CPU thermals - NR200P it is 

------------------

If you guys don't mind me asking... for a first time SFF build, any recommendations on sleeved cable sizes? Or just any extension/full size ones and just route them as best as I can for a clean look?


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## tabascosauz (Oct 14, 2020)

@wheresmycar If you're buying a SFX PSU and are getting a Corsair SF600 or SF750 Platinum (not a whole lot else out there, the original SF Gold and now SF Plat have been the all-stars for years), they already come with SFF-length (read: short) sleeved black cables. What you saw in the PCPartPicker build are the stock cables that come with the SF750.

It's a nice touch that I didn't get back in the day with the 1st gen Gold SF Corsairs. To get the right length cables in 2016 for my NCASE, I went with Cablemod and got a rather expensive kit of custom colors and custom configured lengths to fit. Hence, the current Corsair SF Plats are of incredible value, since the pricing hasn't changed much over the original Golds.

Generally, all SFX PSUs come with appropriately short cables. Don't make the mistake of trying to use regular length Cablemod sets (or even worse, cables + extensions) in a SFF build; it won't end well.




If you're looking for some inspiration in the NR200P, here's my secondary M1 build that's only waiting to receive my 3700X when I buy a Vermeer chip. Exact same layout, just a bit smaller in every direction. 8-pin EPS goes along the top, I found a spot in the top right corner of the board for a zip tie around the motherboard standoff to hold the 8-pin. 24-pin just bends the way it wants to, with one velcro tie to hold it together and one to hold it to the PSU bracket. You can look for a similar anchor in the NR200 to secure your 24-pin and/or 8-pin. The PCIe 8-pin will probably depend on the length of the GPU you choose, and I'm not sure you'll find an anchor point for it in the front of the NR200. That, and you can probably manage a neater 24-pin if yours is longer. Most AM4 boards should have their 8-pin and 24-pin in very similar locations to my B550I Aorus AX.

I just hope you've managed to do away entirely with SATA drives. NVMe-only is incredibly clean, cabling for SATA data and power gets diabolically messy.


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## moproblems99 (Oct 14, 2020)

wheresmycar said:


> Please tell me Razor came up with a "great" solution which has evaded my first (or second) impressions or PSU's magically no longer generate a good deal of heat. Or, somewhere workably in-between for well-dressed thermal performance, otherwise i'm going to bed like an exasperated 5 year old kid.



Take a look at the InWin A1+


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## wheresmycar (Oct 15, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> @wheresmycar If you're buying a SFX PSU and are getting a Corsair SF600 or SF750 Platinum (not a whole lot else out there, the original SF Gold and now SF Plat have been the all-stars for years), they already come with SFF-length (read: short) sleeved black cables. What you saw in the PCPartPicker build are the stock cables that come with the SF750.
> 
> It's a nice touch that I didn't get back in the day with the 1st gen Gold SF Corsairs. To get the right length cables in 2016 for my NCASE, I went with Cablemod and got a rather expensive kit of custom colors and custom configured lengths to fit. Hence, the current Corsair SF Plats are of incredible value, since the pricing hasn't changed much over the original Golds.
> 
> ...



Already got the SF 750 plat in mind. Had someone else recommend the same from one of the ASUS forums. Glad to get a second vote of confidence!!

Depending on selected parts for the build, I'm looking to grab made-to-order white + "build matching colour" (dark grey to be safe) for the sleeves. Might even opt for the white NR200P. With £80 saved from the glass heating Li Lian (lol) more the reason to look into custom sized cables (didn't know that was possible). Hope I can find someone in the UK delivering the same quality of product/service like cablemod.

Nice build (M1) - this definitely helps! I haven't seen a single build without a huge cooler concealing half or more of the back wall.  as most of the builds. We're on a similar white+second-colour sleeved war path hehe. To think of it, i'm also a huge fan of EVGA cards with that white lit up font on the front and chunky heatsink exposure... none of the other cards impress from an aesthetics point of view (for me anyway). I've had the EVGA 3080 FTW in mind... just gotto check whether the 3 pci-slot hanging metal grill will be compatible with 2 slim fans below (any recommendations for slim fans? When it comes to cooling/noise I'm not bothered about cost hence Noctua/etc options are welcome).

Yep, zero 2.5/3.5 inch storage units. All M.2 for me... I only need around 1TB for gaming and the casual use but knowing me might just grab a 2TB NVME and leave the second M.2 for a later upgrade (if ever needed).



moproblems99 said:


> Take a look at the InWin A1+



I already have the A1 in my list of small case options. I didn't know "plus" was available and don't know what the newer variant brings to the table. It's something I would definitely consider for a mid-ranged or lower power consumption build (i dunno a part of me says "it looks girlie"). My next upgrade is a juicy one with a power hungry RTX 3080 and might even end up going with the rather expensive 8-core Ryzen 5000 (i know 6 is plenty for gaming but I was built the wrong way). Therefore... needing maximum airflow performance and nothing short of something like the NR200P and it's dual-fan mount top exhaust. Other than "heat travels upwards" lol, I don't even know the nitty-gritty to suggest what is best but have full faith in optimum tech and his abundant reviews which puts the NR200P amongst the SFF airflow gods (don't even know if the NR is/correctly classed as an SFF)


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## moproblems99 (Oct 15, 2020)

wheresmycar said:


> It's something I would definitely consider for a mid-ranged or lower power consumption build (i dunno a part of me says "it looks girlie").



I don't care for the rgb base but the + has the qi charger on the top but more importantly the 650 gold PSU.  A lot of people complain about it but I have not had an issue with it.  It currently has a 3700x and rx 580 but I am thinking about putting my 3900x and vega in it.  Or big Navi.

I actually have the rear and bottom as intake and side as exhaust.  The 3700x stays in the mid 70s on a 120 aio and the machine is pretty quiet, but I am not very picky on sound.


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## tabascosauz (Oct 20, 2020)

@wheresmycar just noticed you asked about cables. If you don't like the SF750's, the UK's (probably) best known cable maker would be Pexon for keyboards and PSU cables. You can probably find a bunch of smaller shops around these days local to the UK, but over there I can only vouch for Pexon. I have three Pexon cables for my boards and they are excellent  They are, however, very expensive on PSU cables, where cables are sold individually - although, they are fully made to order, so it's a bit like using the Cablemod configurator.

It's up to you. Looking back, I would only do custom order, made-to-fit Cablemod or Pexon if I was *absolutely* sure I would stay with the same case for at least 3 years. It's a pain when you suddenly have to migrate to an ATX case or a testbench and woefully realize that your cables will only ever fit that case you had.

However, you will only need a CPU 8-pin, a 24-pin and two PCIe 8-pins so perhaps the cost won't be insane.

As for fans in the bottom, it'll probably be A12x25s if you can fit them and A12x15s if you can't. Not sure exactly how much more space the NR200 has down there. Optimum tech and someone else were testing 3080s in the NR without bottom fans and seemed fine.

With 3slot GPUs in these types of cases, it's generally a bad idea to jam fans up against the GPU fans. Hence the popularity of deshrouding.


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