# Why not All carriers on one chip



## theFOoL (Aug 21, 2018)

Hi guys,

Why can't they make a chip to allow all carriers or have two chips for LTE. One for T-mobile, AT&T, and the other Verizon, sprint? (Forgot boost mobile) but yeah anyway. Why can't they just do that. I know I know it'll waste space on the PCB but... Just came to me this morning....


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## notb (Aug 21, 2018)

What exactly do you mean?
If you're thinking about SIM-lock, then it's a firmware thing and can be removed ("unlocked").
There's really no practical reason to make a SIM-lock allowing all carriers.


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## theFOoL (Aug 21, 2018)

I'm sorry lol I meant LTE. Just Verizon and the other can't use as they have different signal bands


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## RejZoR (Aug 21, 2018)

SIM/USIM card is literally a generic programmable chip that bootstraps you into the network it was programmed for. It has absolutely nothing to do with bands used for LTE or any other standard. That's phone's job and what operator allows to your specific phone number/plan once you're booted into their network.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 21, 2018)

Firmware on phones are locked down to specific carriers too. My phone is unlocked though


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## Steevo (Aug 21, 2018)

Attenuation.

The different frequency bands in a digital wireless signal is highly dependent on antenna length, attenuation and the chip plays a huge part in that, adding more circuits to an already high power piece of silicon makes it more expensive to produce, the device larger to ensure the antennas won't interfere with each other or the carrier, and lastly you will end up with significant harmonics that may cause issues within the chip itself. Smaller process nodes are making this more and more problematic for engineering, as interference can induce unwanted current that can put the chip well above it intended power envelope.

They used to make dual sim phones, some places still have them, but don't expect it on modern smart phones.


T-Mobile, AT&T and most of the world use a common frequency spectrum, Verizon uses a whole other range that may be used for other systems in other countries, and the fact that not all countries use common frequencies for the same type of communications increases that issue. For example I can buy 450Mhz devices but need a license in the US to use them, but my 900Mhz devices are all fine as long as I remain below a certain power in transmission. In most of the rest of the world 900Mhz is used for other things, so I cannot legally sell some devices to some countries.


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## cdawall (Aug 21, 2018)

Steevo said:


> Attenuation.
> 
> The different frequency bands in a digital wireless signal is highly dependent on antenna length, attenuation and the chip plays a huge part in that, adding more circuits to an already high power piece of silicon makes it more expensive to produce, the device larger to ensure the antennas won't interfere with each other or the carrier, and lastly you will end up with significant harmonics that may cause issues within the chip itself. Smaller process nodes are making this more and more problematic for engineering, as interference can induce unwanted current that can put the chip well above it intended power envelope.
> 
> ...



Tmobil won't be on the GSM band much longer their new stuff uses a weird band from the cable companies


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## Frick (Aug 21, 2018)

Steevo said:


> They used to make dual sim phones, some places still have them, but don't expect it on modern smart phones.



There are dual sim versions of the Galaxy S9/+, Oneplus phones, Huawei P20, Zenphone 5Z, some Sonys, Motorola, the new Nokias, a bunch of lower end Samsungs... They are quite common in some parts of the world.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 21, 2018)

USA is the only country that doesn't dictate networks so there's CDMA and GSM (maybe others).  The rest of the world is only GSM.  It's not just the phones that are different, the entire network is.  On the bright side, USA has some wireless redundancy.

Yeah, there's still dual SIM available but they can only connect to networks that match their antennas.  Dual SIM is generally for people that travel a lot.  For example, I know missionaries that have a SIM for Haiti's networks and a SIM for AT&T in USA.  Same phone will work in both countries.


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## notb (Aug 21, 2018)

RejZoR said:


> SIM/USIM card is literally a generic programmable chip that bootstraps you into the network it was programmed for. It has absolutely nothing to do with bands used for LTE or any other standard. That's phone's job and what operator allows to your specific phone number/plan once you're booted into their network.


Phone obviously limits the frequencies available and so on. 


Steevo said:


> They used to make dual sim phones, some places still have them, but don't expect it on modern smart phones.


There are variants of most, if not all, high-end phones that accept 2 SIMs. A lot of cheaper models do as well.


Frick said:


> They are quite common in* some parts of the world*.


Pretty much the whole world outside of North America can buy dual-sim phones.


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## silentbogo (Aug 21, 2018)

rk3066 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Why can't they make a chip to allow all carriers or have two chips for LTE. One for T-mobile, AT&T, and the other Verizon, sprint? (Forgot boost mobile) but yeah anyway. Why can't they just do that. I know I know it'll waste space on the PCB but... Just came to me this morning....


It's all about regional band locks. The hardware on almost all modern phones (including cheap Mediatek-based devices) can do pretty much everything, including GSM, CDMA, LTE in most (or in some cases all) band segments, but most countries have restrictions on whichever bands those devices (or carriers) can use. It all comes down to a modem firmware lock, but the hardware is absolutely identical. Some restrictions can be circumvented, but in most cases it's pointless for regular consumers.

Not sure if you are familiar with this, but it's similar to WiFi channel limitations for each country. For example, in US you can use channels 12 and 13 only for low-power devices like home routers. Channel 14 is restricted. If you use ch12 and ch13 on high-power devices (e.g. old directional parabolic long-distance 2.4G antennaes, Airlink wireless bridges, or high-power APs), then you can potentially get in trouble with FCC.



FordGT90Concept said:


> USA is the only country that doesn't dictate networks so there's CDMA and GSM (maybe others). The rest of the world is only GSM. It's not just the phones that are different, the entire network is. On the bright side, USA has some wireless redundancy.


If that was true, I wouldn't have had a chance to use GSM on my old phone, LTE on my new phone, and CDMA for our workphones and terminals. I can even use Wimax in my area, if I really want to. 
It's like saying "the rest of the world only drives Toyotas".



FordGT90Concept said:


> Yeah, there's still dual SIM available but they can only connect to networks that match their antennas.


It has nothing to do with antennaes. You don't see many dual-sim phones in NA due to lack of interest (and because comm services are expensive). Most people get one contract phone and keep using it until it gets old and they get another one at discount, hence getting pulled into an endless circle of being stuck with one provider for many-many years. 

In Asia, Eastern Europe and few other regions Wireless services are cheap, and it's even cheaper if you only use it for calls within carrier's network. This gives people an ability to, let's say, get a SIM from one carrier to talk to your family and friends, and get a SIM from another carrier cause that's what your co-workers use. Plus, you get more flexible plans. For example, my primary SIM has 4G and voice, and my other SIM is voice-only (but has unlimited minutes on all other cell networks). My total monthly bill is around 140UAH, which is around 5 american rupees.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 21, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> If that was true, I wouldn't have had a chance to use GSM on my old phone, LTE on my new phone, and CDMA for our workphones and terminals. I can even use Wimax in my area, if I really want to.
> It's like saying "the rest of the world only drives Toyotas".


LTE only works in places with 4G LTE.  3G and 2G, the phones fall back on their CDMA/GSM backbones (which is pretty much everywhere that isn't a city).

Pretty sure Verizon won't issue a SIM card to a phone with GSM antennas nor will AT&T for CDMA.  LTE may be universal between them but the networks are still separate.




silentbogo said:


> You don't see many dual-sim phones in NA due to lack of interest (and because comm services are expensive).


Most Americans don't leave the country so they're not exposed to different networks.  Additionally, most American contracts allow international roaming if you pay a little more per month.  On those plans, you can use the phone, for example, in Canada without changing SIM cards at all (provided the phone is GSM).


Why SIMs?  So they know who to bill for time on the network.


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## notb (Aug 21, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Pretty sure Verizon won't issue a SIM card to a phone with GSM antennas nor will AT&T for CDMA.  LTE may be universal between them but the networks are still separate.


How is this enforced? Don't you simply buy a plan and they give you a SIM?
How does the "won't issue a SIM" idea work? They ask you what phone you'll use? 


> Additionally, most American contracts allow international roaming if you pay a little more per month.  On those plans, you can use the phone, for example, in Canada without changing SIM cards at all (provided the phone is GSM).


I don't think I can imagine such everyday discomforts any more. Isn't roaming a standard since 90s?


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## silentbogo (Aug 21, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Pretty sure Verizon won't issue a SIM card to a phone with GSM antennas nor will AT&T for CDMA. LTE may be universal between them but the networks are still separate.


That's a carrier restriction enforced by the company itself, and it exists everywhere.  Not a regional restriction.
In regards to GSM fallback, that's true but it slowly works its way up to full coverage. At least in Ukraine most major players have almost finished upgrading old Nokia cell towers to new Huawei equipment.
It's already installed, but only partially deployed 'cause benchmarking, QA, and analysis isn't complete yet (my new employer takes care of that part)



FordGT90Concept said:


> TE only works in places with 4G LTE. 3G and 2G, the phones fall back on their CDMA/GSM backbones (which is pretty much everywhere that isn't a city).


And isn't it the same in US? Getting great coverage in Colorado Rockies, or Florida farmtowns? Any 4G in Nebraska?
I'm not talking about those pretty maps on Verizon and AT&T websites, I'm talking actual connectivity and benchmarked speeds.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 21, 2018)

notb said:


> How is this enforced? Don't you simply buy a plan and they give you a SIM?
> How does the "won't issue a SIM" idea work? They ask you what phone you'll use?


They request the IMEI number baked into the phone (example support form for checking it) you have to give them which they use to activate it.  If they don't approve the IMEI, no SIM card and no activation for the device.



notb said:


> I don't think I can imagine such everyday discomforts any more. Isn't roaming a standard since 90s?


On contract phones, usually (but not internationally).  On contractless phones, no (emergency calls only).



silentbogo said:


> That's a carrier restriction enforced by the company itself, and it exists everywhere.  Not a regional restriction.
> In regards to GSM fallback, that's true but it slowly works its way up to full coverage. At least in Ukraine most major players have almost finished upgrading old Nokia cell towers to new Huawei equipment.
> It's already installed, but only partially deployed 'cause benchmarking, QA, and analysis isn't complete yet (my new employer takes care of that part)


Because you're outside the USA.  Outside of USA, there is only GSM.  When the rest of the world adopted GSM, CDMA was pretty terrible.  CDMA isn't terrible anymore but only Verizon and co deploy it and mostly only in the USA.



silentbogo said:


> And isn't it the same in US? Getting great coverage in Colorado Rockies, or Florida farmtowns? Any 4G in Nebraska?
> I'm not talking about those pretty maps on Verizon and AT&T websites, I'm talking actual connectivity and benchmarked speeds.


There's pockets of 2G around me.  Wireless performance really doesn't matter because bandwidth is heavily metered.


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## notb (Aug 21, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Because you're outside the USA.  Outside of USA, there is only GSM.  When the rest of the world adopted GSM, CDMA was pretty terrible.  CDMA isn't terrible anymore but only Verizon and co deploy it and mostly only in the USA.


Not true. CDMA used to be available in many countries, but is being phased out.
It really makes no sense to support 2 systems. GSM won long time ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CDMA2000_networks
If this list is correct, USA, China and South Korea are the last significant CDMA operators. Korea's CDMA might close down in 2021, not sure about China.

Why exactly is CDMA so strong in USA? Carriers can't cooperate or what?



> Wireless performance really doesn't matter because bandwidth is heavily metered.


Again, "heavily metered" LTE seems like a bad memory from the past.
Sure, there are still some limitations, but they're hardly noticeable in everyday life - unless one wants to use the phone as an access point at home (which is exactly the reason limits still exists).

Metering becomes a problem when going abroad, but should be fixed few years from now.


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## theFOoL (Aug 21, 2018)

How'd y'all feel about these Wi-Fi on poles being developed? Saw this on news awhile back

I know this will be in like city's only but it has a long way to go


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 21, 2018)

"Wi-Fi on poles?"  You mean long-range 802.11?




notb said:


> Why exactly is CDMA so strong in USA? Carriers can't cooperate or what?


Verizon already had the CDMA network deployed decades ago.  Instead of replacing their entire network, they worked on fixing CDMA issues.  CDMA now is highly competitive with GSM (in some regards, better).  There is 0% chance of CDMA going away in the USA in the next 10 years.



notb said:


> Again, "heavily metered" LTE seems like a bad memory from the past.


Wired and wireless data is expensive in the USA.  Only rural and poor are subsidized...and barely at that.


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## theFOoL (Aug 21, 2018)

Umm I forgot what they mentioned. Just I was In the room while walking to my room


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 21, 2018)

Long range 802.11 needs line of sight to work.  In other words, it's terrible for cities, great for rural.  That's how I'm connected now, in fact.


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## theFOoL (Aug 21, 2018)

Hmm if I remember correctly I think they mentioned for places that can't get LTE or Wi-Fi (like internet where they live) at all. Good idea I'd say


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## notb (Aug 21, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Verizon already had the CDMA network deployed decades ago.  Instead of replacing their entire network, they worked on fixing CDMA issues.


Verizon is ~15 years old, so is the currently used CDMA2000.
CDMA protocol itself was introduced in 90s.
Where are you getting these "decades ago" from? Why are you trying to defend CDMA so much? :-D

No offense, but 2 hours ago you seemed to think that CDMA is a US exclusive system. Are we discussing some national pride issues or what? 


> CDMA now is highly competitive with GSM (in some regards, better).


In what aspects is it better?

Still, why keep both if they are "highly competitive"?
I might understand you if they were vastly different or one was much worse (hence, cheaper).


> Wired and wireless data is expensive in the USA.


Maybe that's partly because you have so many systems? :-D

Seriously: different protocols, some weird IMEI showing and all this stuff.
You're writing from a country proud for its free market and yet it's so hard to change the mobile carrier. :-D
I just have to sign a contract with a new operator and it's his job to contact the current one and do the formalities. Most people in Europe don't even know what IMEI is.

BTW: do you at least get to keep the same number?


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## hat (Aug 22, 2018)

Mobile phones truly are a mess in this country. It's not uncommon for carriers to lock you in forever by offering a ridiculously expensive phone for pennies on the dollar per month until it's eventually paid off 1000 years later. At which point the iPhone 20 will be out and good luck taking that phone anywhere else, anyway.

When I moved to FreedomPop, I was currently using a plan from TextNow with one of their cheap phones (LG Volt 4G). I was still okay with the phone, so I looked it up with FreedomPop's tool that determines whether or not you can bring it to their network. The result: the phone was incompatible, and I had to buy one of theirs... even though both carriers are MVNO's that piggyback off the same carrier - Sprint.

It's a ridiculous mess to try to figure out. You should be able to just buy a phone and take it to any carrier. Even if you get that phone from a contract with your carrier, once it's paid off you should be able to take that phone to another carrier. Imagine leasing your PC from your ISP and never being able to get service from another ISP without leasing _their_ PC? Seems a bit absurd...


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## theFOoL (Aug 22, 2018)

I mean before my car accident I bought cheap phones from companies like Doogee, Etc and it ran fine and it was only $89! Though was MediaTek cpu and only 1GB RAM (Though ATT was only Android KK) but it worked! Yes the camera has bad though still are. Once my contract is up with Verizon I'll be switching to PCS carrier. Companies like OPPO and Xiaomi are the real deal now and will work with 4G with GSM networks


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## Komshija (Aug 22, 2018)

There are such phones which allow dual-sim. It's certainly not an iPhone. You'll have to look towards phones that are not locked and there are plenty of them - Huawei, ZTE, Lenovo, Oppo, Xiaomi, OnePlus, Meizu, Elephone... Phones are one thing where China, considering quality and performance, excels.
Not to even mention that few of their flagships come with pre-installed anti-spying app which can block or deny unauthorised access (read: direct spying) about your location, microphone or camera by known violators like google, facebook, instagram, viber, whatsapp.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 22, 2018)

notb said:


> Verizon is ~15 years old, so is the currently used CDMA2000.
> CDMA protocol itself was introduced in 90s.


Verizon is formerly Bell Atlantic Corporation which has been around since 1989.  They rebranded in 2000.  CDMA2000 is the protocol that's competitive with GSM.



notb said:


> No offense, but 2 hours ago you seemed to think that CDMA is a US exclusive system.


USA is the only country with no intent to get rid of CDMA.



notb said:


> You're writing from a country proud for its free market and yet it's so hard to change the mobile carrier. :-D


If it's GSM to GSM or CDMA to CDMA, all it takes is giving them the IMEI, them sending you a new SIM card, and pay for at least the first month of phone service (including activation fee).  Not difficult to change carriers.



notb said:


> BTW: do you at least get to keep the same number?


If you want the same number, yes, they can transfer that.


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## notb (Aug 22, 2018)

Komshija said:


> There are such phones which allow dual-sim. It's certainly not an iPhone.


iPhone's are famously made with a US client in mind (well - Californians - to be precise). It works for the rest of the world, because we're used to adopting american way of living. 
I'm pretty sure every other manufacturer makes a dual-sim phone (certainly the larger brands do).


> You'll have to look towards phones that are not locked and there are plenty of them - Huawei, ZTE, Lenovo, Oppo, Xiaomi, OnePlus, Meizu, Elephone...


What do you mean by "not locked"? If you buy a phone from a carrier, it'll certainly have a sim lock. If you buy it in a store, it will be unlocked.
Unlocking phones is fairly easy and fully legal.


> Phones are one thing where China, considering quality and performance, excels.


They're just cheap with good performance. They save money on qualitative things that aren't obvious.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 22, 2018)

When it comes to LTE I would be more concerned about the useless and relentless push for faster radios inside phones that drive the price higher when in most places we barely even get close to saturating  the 100mbps LTE standard.

My S8+ supposedly can do 1Gbps, I will probably change 2-3 more phones till I will see anything close to that from carriers. Thanks for nothing.


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## notb (Aug 22, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Verizon is formerly Bell Atlantic Corporation which has been around since 1989.  They rebranded in 2000.  CDMA2000 is the protocol that's competitive with GSM.


So by "network deployed decades ago" you've precisely meant 2 decades. Nice. 
And could the original CDMA transmitters be reprogrammed for CDMA2000?


> USA is the only country with no intent to get rid of CDMA.


As mentioned before: I believe China plans to keep it as well (as a niche solution, but still).

But why keep CDMA at all? Isn't it just a irritating quirk for the customers? Wouldn't you want to have a unified protocol on which every phone works? And no roaming problems when travelling?



> If it's GSM to GSM or CDMA to CDMA, all it takes is giving them the IMEI, them sending you a new SIM card, and pay for at least the first month of phone service (including activation fee).  Not difficult to change carriers.
> If you want the same number, yes, they can transfer that.


Yeah, I've found these instruction from Sprint: :-D
https://www.sprint.com/en/support/s...ing/bring-your-existing-number-to-sprint.html

"You should have the following on hand when processing your transfer request: 

Name and address on old service provider account
Account number from your old service provider
Account password from your old service provider (if applicable)"
They want you to give login information to your current provider? Seriously? Is that even legal? 
So there is no systematic solution? They just login as you and manually close the plan?

And why do they want the address of your carrier?! O-M-G


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 22, 2018)

notb said:


> So by "network deployed decades ago" you've precisely meant 2 decades. Nice.
> And could the original CDMA transmitters be reprogrammed for CDMA2000?


No, 1990.  They updated their network from CDMA to CDMA2000.  Transmitter cost doesn't matter, it's maintaining service for customers with CDMA phones without having to run parallel networks.  It was cheaper to upgrade CDMA than to switch to GSM.



notb said:


> But why keep CDMA at all? Isn't it just a irritating quirk for the customers? Wouldn't you want to have a unified protocol on which every phone works? And no roaming problems when travelling?


All carriers have roaming problems in the USA.  It's a huge country with a lot of holes, often created by geography and population density.


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## notb (Aug 22, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> When it comes to LTE I would be more concerned about the useless and relentless push for faster radios inside phones that drive the price higher when in most places we barely even get close to saturating  the 100mbps LTE standard.


Seriously? You don't saturate 100 Mbps in 2018?
My cable connection at home is 240 Mbps and I'm currently switching to double that. Websites and services are getting larger and larger, while our acceptation of lags and long downloads is shrinking rapidly.


> My S8+ supposedly can do 1Gbps, I will probably change 2-3 more phones till I will see anything close to that from carriers. Thanks for nothing.


Gigabit LTE is already here. 5G is on its way.
And aren't you a big advocate of future proof hardware? Ryzen and stuff? :-D


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## yotano211 (Aug 22, 2018)

silentbogo said:


> That's a carrier restriction enforced by the company itself, and it exists everywhere.  Not a regional restriction.
> In regards to GSM fallback, that's true but it slowly works its way up to full coverage. At least in Ukraine most major players have almost finished upgrading old Nokia cell towers to new Huawei equipment.
> It's already installed, but only partially deployed 'cause benchmarking, QA, and analysis isn't complete yet (my new employer takes care of that part)
> 
> ...


Dont expect to get any 4g service on the i40 highway in Arizona.


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## R-T-B (Aug 22, 2018)

notb said:


> If this list is correct, USA, China and South Korea are the last significant CDMA operators.



Verizon is phasing out CDMA already, turning it off in 2020.  They are the only user stateside honestly.



FordGT90Concept said:


> There is 0% chance of CDMA going away in the USA in the next 10 years.



Uh, no.  Verizon even recently stopped activating none-LTE devices this June.  CDMA stateside is dead.



notb said:


> BTW: do you at least get to keep the same number?



Yes, but speaking from experience, it can be a major PITA.



yotano211 said:


> Dont expect to get any 4g service on the i40 highway in Arizona.



I'd be expecting it soon or you will literally have nothing.


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## delshay (Aug 22, 2018)

You can buy a dual sim card & fit it to most phones. I still have couple of these adaptors lying around somewhere.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 22, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Verizon is phasing out CDMA already, turning it off in 2020.  They are the only user stateside honestly.
> 
> Uh, no.  Verizon even recently stopped activating none-LTE devices this June.  CDMA stateside is dead.


Haven't really researched it in years.  It shows.


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## v12dock (Aug 22, 2018)

Big brother Verizon is so horrible... but at least I have service everywhere


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## R-T-B (Aug 22, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Haven't really researched it in years.  It shows.



Hey ford, a bit OT but been meaning to say: we disagree a lot but given both of us are willing to admit when are wrong (well, at least blatantly so  ), I have a lot of respect for our discussions.

Thanks for taking the higher road when possible.


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## Komshija (Aug 23, 2018)

notb said:


> iPhone's are famously made with a US client in mind (well - Californians - to be precise). It works for the rest of the world, because we're used to adopting american way of living.


 iPhones are made to sell a brand name and apple logo so that people could spent their last coin to show others that they are someone who they are not - that's the case with probably 95% of iPhone users.
Completely disregard the fact that an iphone is the best privacy invader on the market and also the most expensive phone with average built quality which gives terrible value for the money. It has only one good thing considering its OS - its better optimized than android, so it doesn't need a 2,5+ GHz 8-core CPU and 6 GB RAM to run fluently.

Every culture has some good things, but every person who fully or completely assimilates other "culture" (note: culture vs "culture") trying to be somebody that they are not and who fights for the implanted ideals, which are usually counterproductive for them and/or their country, is an brainwashed idiot.



notb said:


> What do you mean by "not locked"? If you buy a phone from a carrier, it'll certainly have a sim lock. If you buy it in a store, it will be unlocked.
> Unlocking phones is fairly easy and fully legal.


 That depends on regulations of a certain country, but yes, unlocking can be done at pretty much every small phone store/shop for a small fee of approx. 10-20€ or by yourself.



notb said:


> They're just cheap with good performance. They save money on qualitative things that aren't obvious.


 I wouldn't say it that way. Thier top-end and even high-end models are well made phones with very good price-to-value ratio and a lot better privacy protections. Apple products are so expensive because of a brand name and logo, meaning that Apple has enormous profit margin which topples every other smartphone manufacturer on the planet.

This is how the things approximately work:
* Top-end Chinese smartphone -> development & production costs: 150 €, marketing 50 €, shipping & handling: 20 €, total: 220 €, end-price for the consumer: 400 €  profit margin: 180 €
* Top-end Korean smartphone -> development & production costs: 170 €, marketing 150 €, shipping & handling: 20 €, total: 340 €, end-price for the consumer: 850 €, profit margin: 410 €
* iPhone -> development & production costs: 170 €, marketing 300 €, shipping & handling: 20 €, total: 490 €, end-price for the consumer: 1200 €, profit margin: 710 €


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