# I hope the new PS5 cooler still works well... awaiting more testing



## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2021)

*The first hardware revision of the PS5 looks like a step backwards*

_








						The first hardware revision of the PS5 looks like a step backwards
					

YouTuber Austin Evans was able to get one of the new CFI-11-series PlayStation units imported from Japan to compare it with a launch model (watch below), and...




					www.techspot.com
				



_
Source ^
the new updated PS5 is below...  this is just sad and pathetic how much cooling they took away... looks like I am sticking with PC for life after all.  Take care Sony, I am sorry I even tried to get a PS5, and am thankful I was never able to get one. Especially since Sony boosts frequency unlike Xbox Series X which has a static frequency... so yeah... RIP smooth frame rates.








Source for picture:  https://www.techspot.com/news/91003-first-hardware-revision-ps5-looks-like-step-backwards.html


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## Selaya (Aug 29, 2021)

Ah, the good ol' bait-and-switch, as old as the history of mankind itself.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2021)

Selaya said:


> Ah, the good ol' bait-and-switch, as old as the history of mankind itself.



Yep, Sony won't be getting a penny from me. PC for life!!!


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## P4-630 (Aug 29, 2021)

I posted this in GN https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/general-nonsense.232862/post-4594130


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## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> I posted this in GN https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/general-nonsense.232862/post-4594130



Sorry, didn't see that, also I feel it deserves it's own thread, and not in the lounge.  The public has a right to know they are getting ripped off.  5 Celsius warmer may not sound like much, but as the video shows, with the variable boost clock... yeah just sad...


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## GerKNG (Aug 29, 2021)

there are people that have any kind of respect or love for sony?


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## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> there are people that have any kind of respect or love for sony?



I grew up on PS1 and PS2 and really loved those days... and always respected them for creating and funding excellent exclusives over the decades.  

I did skip ps3 and ps4 due to other things in life going on, but was hoping to come back with PS5 to play some of the backlog I missed.

I won't be playing that backlog now. Sticking with PC.


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## DR4G00N (Aug 29, 2021)

I don't see the problem? It's pretty standard practice to streamline products over revisions.

I know the 360 started out with fancy heatpipe coolers and later turned to extruded aluminum ones. I had the latter, not like I cared though since it worked perfectly fine.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Aug 29, 2021)

DR4G00N said:


> I don't see the problem? It's pretty standard practice to streamline products over revisions.
> 
> I know the 360 started out with fancy heatpipe coolers and later turned to extruded aluminum ones. I had the latter, not like I cared though since it worked perfectly fine.


The PS5 is based on boost clocks, not fixed clocks like previous consoles. There has been no known silicon revision that would dramatically reduce power usage or heat generation. That means this PS5 revision with either be significantly louder, have worse performance and graphics then the original model, or more likely both.

The Xbox 360 revisions came along with lower power consumption as time went on. The Xenon was 203w, the falcon 175w, the jasper 150w, the trinity 133w, and the corona 115w. No such silicon revision has been seen here.

EDIT: fixed console variant names and wattages.


GerKNG said:


> there are people that have any kind of respect or love for sony?


Sony built up a huge fanbase with the PS1 and PS2. The PS3, despite it's cost issues, had a large library of fantastic titles. The PS4 was seen as a fantastic console despite it's lack of quality exclusive titles. There are a LOT of people that will go to bat for sony.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2021)

DR4G00N said:


> I don't see the problem? It's pretty standard practice to streamline products over revisions.
> 
> I know the 360 started out with fancy heatpipe coolers and later turned to extruded aluminum ones. I had the latter, not like I cared though since it worked perfectly fine.



Did the 360 have a static frequency CPU or a boosting one?

@TheinsanegamerN you beat me to it. lol


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## Aquinus (Aug 29, 2021)

Variable clock isn't a bad thing unless you begin to thermal throttle because it's boosting higher than the device can dissipate the heat for extended durations. Most CPUs and GPUs these days dynamically adjust clocks and it's getting harder and harder to force a clock frequency, and like with AMD's latest chips, that can also really hurt performance as well. So all in all, I think the issue with variable clocks is pretty dumb. The concern should be if the PS5 is overburdened because of its performance given its thermal capabilities (or limitations I should say,) but I'm not sure that's Sony's fault. If the thermal and boosting characteristics of the PS5 are known by engineers, they should understand that boost speeds will not be maintained. That's not Sony's fault to be honest. It's game devs who should be building the game to run within the capabilities of the device. Just my 2¢.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 29, 2021)

Aquinus said:


> Variable clock isn't a bad thing unless you begin to thermal throttle because it's boosting higher than the device can dissipate the heat for extended durations. Most CPUs and GPUs these days dynamically adjust clocks and it's getting harder and harder to force a clock frequency, and like with AMD's chips, that can also really hurt performance as well. So all in all, I think the issue with variable clocks is pretty dumb. The concern should be if the PS5 is overburdened because its performance given its thermal capabilities. If the thermal and boosting characteristics of the PS5 are known by engineers, they should understand that boost speeds will not be maintained. That's not Sony's fault to be honest. It's game devs who should be building the game to run within the capabilities of the device. Just my 2¢.



I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that 90% of console gamers are not gaming with a Freesync display, so there will be some stuttering here and there. Consoles are trying to act like PC's too much these days, and the end user is about to find out what that means. If they get a freesync display, I agree it probably won't be noticeable. Also though... its the bait and switch moral of the story here too... really crappy of Sony.


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## P4-630 (Aug 29, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> That means this PS5 revision with either be significantly louder, have worse performance and graphics then the original model, or more likely both.


The new version is about 1 dBA quieter, and it runs about 4 degrees Celsius warmer.


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## Aquinus (Aug 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that 90% of console gamers are not gaming with a Freesync display, so there will be some stuttering here and there. Consoles are trying to act like PC's too much these days, and the end user is about to find out what that means. If they get a freesync display, I agree it probably won't be noticeable. Also though... its the bait and switch moral of the story here too... really crappy of Sony.


I'm skeptical that people would notice regardless to be completely honest. Also, we don't really know how much overhead the original design had in terms of thermal headroom. There is a lot of speculation going on here beyond the smaller heatsink and running a little warmer. Whether or not that pans out into a tangible performance degradation remains to be seen. I wouldn't make that assumption quite yet.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 29, 2021)

3-5c hotter, not worth bothering over.


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## glsn (Aug 29, 2021)

whatever they need to cut cost
~5C are ignorable anyway


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## AsRock (Aug 29, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> 3-5c hotter, not worth bothering over.


But they might be boosting less too due to that extra heat.


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## glsn (Aug 29, 2021)

AsRock said:


> But they might be boosting less too due to that extra heat.


nobody will ever notice


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## Chomiq (Aug 29, 2021)

OP must have missed out on PSX, PS2, PS3 and PS4 revisions. Original model was overengineered, at least if they're finally putting better fan in it you no longer have to worry about swapping out those fans yourself. Either way, with current availability I'll consider it once Slim or new SKU comes out. Same with GPU's - unless it's at MSRP I might skip current gen for 4000/7000.


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## The red spirit (Aug 29, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> there are people that have any kind of respect or love for sony?


Sure there are, you certainly wouldn't want to see console forum.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> OP must have missed out on PSX, PS2, PS3 and PS4 revisions. Original model was overengineered, at least if they're finally putting better fan in it you no longer have to worry about swapping out those fans yourself. Either way, with current availability I'll consider it once Slim or new SKU comes out. Same with GPU's - unless it's at MSRP I might skip current gen for 4000/7000.



the PS1 and PS2 had static frequency cpu/gpu's to my knowledge... also it took many many years for the slim/updated models to release not less than a year...  context people...


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> *The first hardware revision of the PS5 looks like a step backwards*
> 
> _
> 
> ...


How's it perform, if they shrunk the chips and need to cool less than it could be ok, if it performs worse, well I'll be disappointed.
After reading it , doesn't sound good, more testing is needed but I can't see it going.well.


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## outpt (Aug 30, 2021)

death to consoles long live the PC Master race.


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## R-T-B (Aug 30, 2021)

DR4G00N said:


> I don't see the problem? It's pretty standard practice to streamline products over revisions.
> 
> I know the 360 started out with fancy heatpipe coolers and later turned to extruded aluminum ones. I had the latter, not like I cared though since it worked perfectly fine.


It also dropped it's TDP massively.  Has that happened here?  If so, storm in a teacup.


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## Flanker (Aug 30, 2021)

Some benchmarks to see the differences in performance would be nice


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

Flanker said:


> Some benchmarks to see the differences in performance would be nice



I want more than just benchmarks though, I want a side by side playthrough of the same game on same tv's, same settings across the board, and see if we see any hitching or stuttering during like big fight scenes when a lot of characters are on screen all of the sudden, etc.  if both systems hitch for 0.5 seconds at the same time during scenes like that, or if just the one running hotter does it... then we will have our answer.

just numbers benchmarks is not good enough imo, it needs to be a purely visual testing setup.


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## Flanker (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I want more than just benchmarks though, I want a side by side playthrough of the same game on same tv's, same settings across the board, and see if we see any hitching or stuttering during like big fight scenes when a lot of characters are on screen all of the sudden, etc.  if both systems hitch for 0.5 seconds at the same time during scenes like that, or if just the one running hotter does it... then we will have our answer.
> 
> just numbers benchmarks is not good enough imo, it needs to be a purely visual testing setup.


That would be even nicer


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## Blue4130 (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> ... its the bait and switch moral of the story here too... really crappy of Sony.


Is the cooling solution predominantly marketed when talking about the ps5? I don't think this falls under bait and switch, at least I don't see it as bait and switch. As long as it maintains performance... Wait and see before all of this outrage.


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## qubit (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Yep, Sony won't be getting a penny from me. PC for life!!!


I don’t blame you for boycotting Sony, but the thing is, PC component manufacturers pull stunts like this too, so you still have to be wary. See this video for details.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

Blue4130 said:


> Is the cooling solution predominantly marketed when talking about the ps5? I don't think this falls under bait and switch, at least I don't see it as bait and switch. As long as it maintains performance... Wait and see before all of this outrage.



considering the jet engine the PS4 Pro fan sounded like, yes it was talked about a lot actually. and temps were very important to the customers when they first marketed the PS5.


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## Fourstaff (Aug 30, 2021)

Not uncommon for Sony to streamline costs, PS3 cut PS2 backward compatibility. Cooling optimisation is one of the smaller things to complain about.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

qubit said:


> I don’t blame you for boycotting Sony, but the thing is, PC component manufacturers pull stunts like this too, so you still have to be wary. See this video for details.



I am smart enough to get around the PC industry pulling these stunts, since a PC is ultimately - my build, not someone elses build like a console is. A console is out of my control, a PC is not, long live PC.



Fourstaff said:


> Not uncommon for Sony to streamline costs, PS3 cut PS2 backward compatibility. Cooling optimisation is one of the smaller things to complain about.



That's fine, but they will no longer getting my money.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

I'm suddenly reminded of a phrase about mountains and mole hills... I'm also reminded of a boy and the crying of "wolf"...

Folks, Sony is NOT pulling a sneaky with this. They discovered that the original cooling design was a bit overkill and redesigned the cooler as a result to save some money. This is not only not "sneaky" or "evil", but is in fact good business practice. This is a non-issue. Full stop.

People let's stop with the making of mountains from moles hills, hmm?



Fourstaff said:


> PS3 cut PS2 backward compatibility.


To be fair they just switched from direct hardware compatibility(which was expensive) to a software emulation mode(almost free). PS2/PS1 compatibility is still there, it just runs differently.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'm suddenly reminded of a phrase about mountains and mole hills... I'm also reminded of a boy and the crying of "wolf"...
> 
> Folks, Sony is NOT pulling a sneaky with this. They discovered that the original cooling design was a bit overkill and redesigned the cooler as a result to save some money. This is not only not "sneaky" or "evil", but is in fact good business practice. This is a non-issue. Full stop.
> 
> People let's stop with the making of mountains from moles hills, hmm?



let's wait for the side by side reviews first to see if any hitches or stuttering occur. hopefully steve at gamersnexus will do some testing or hardware unboxed.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'm suddenly reminded of a phrase about mountains and mole hills... I'm also reminded of a boy and the crying of "wolf"...
> 
> Folks, Sony is NOT pulling a sneaky with this. They discovered that the original cooling design was a bit overkill and redesigned the cooler as a result to save some money. This is not only not "sneaky" or "evil", but is in fact good business practice. This is a non-issue. Full stop.
> 
> ...


Instead of lynx29 bitching about it he should just vote with his wallet.

I personally like having hardware to play old discs myself, just my preference.


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## Jetster (Aug 30, 2021)

I remember the AMD HD 5870 was powerful. Then the AMD HD6870 came out. What a disappointment


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 30, 2021)

I truly feel this should be in the Lounge/general nonsense area



Jetster said:


> I remember the AMD HD 5870 was powerful. Then the AMD HD6870 came out. What a disappointment


I only dealt with a Sapphire 6770 which was a revision of the 5770. I guess the 6870 was a revision of the 5870.

With the way things are Consoles are cheaper than PCs for gaming now...


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> let's wait for the side by side reviews first to see if any hitches or stuttering occur. hopefully steve at gamersnexus will do some testing or hardware unboxed.


Or you can trust that Sony has done their due diligence with the engineering to make sure they don't sabotage their own product.. There is little if not nothing to be concerned about here. Seriously, look at those two heatsinks and let the sheer size of them both sink in. Do you honestly believe there's going to be a cooling problem with that new heatsink on what is effectively a 65w AMD APU? Come on folks, a little common sense here...

EDIT;
@lynx29 
I'm not attacking you personally, I hope it doesn't come off that way. Only trying to help you see the big picture and gain a bit of clarity.


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## eidairaman1 (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Or you can trust that Sony has done their due diligence with the engineering to make sure they don't sabotage their own product.. There is little if not nothing to be concerned about here. Seriously, look at those two heatsinks and let the sheer size of them both sink in. Do you honestly believe there's going to be a cooling problem with that new heatsink on what is effectively a 65w AMD APU? Come on folks, a little common sense here...


Its uncommon nowadays bro


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Or you can trust that Sony has done their due diligence with the engineering to make sure they don't sabotage their own product.. There is little if not nothing to be concerned about here. Seriously, look at those two heatsinks and let the sheer size of them both sink in. Do you honestly believe there's going to be a cooling problem with that new heatsink on what is effectively a 65w AMD APU? Come on folks, a little common sense here...



Steve at GamersNexus already showed the ram or VRM's were hitting 90+ celsius on the original PS5 cooling design.  Longevity is important to me in consoles, plus as the video I linked in post 1 showed... 5 celsius may not sound like much, but if it effects the frequency to much it could have negative impact on gaming experience, and no because Sony would have had to test every PS5 game from start to finish to see if there are certain areas of certain games that end up hitching due to a lower boost clock (if there is even a lower boost close remains to be seen... so we simply need more research and reviews at this point)

Also, the Gamers Nexuys thing, can't remember if it was ram or VRM's, but how does the 5 celsius on the APU increase effect those other temps? That's another set of research done we need... cause if we knocking on 100 celsius now on the VRM's... longevity...

also, just to clarfiy a bit:  I was actually waiting on a PS5 revision that would IMPROVE cooling not add 5 celsius more... based on steve from gamersnexus testing of the PS5 claiming it ran a little hot for comfort. so that's why I made this thread... it's not that 5 celsius is a massive deal (testing pending and more reviews etc) its mostly that I legit was hoping a future revision would improve the cooling, this is a step backwards imo, which ironically is the title of the article I linked, but it is true imo.


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## the54thvoid (Aug 30, 2021)

Please stop with the personal attacks. Straight reply bans moving forward. I'd LQ/delete but it's not my sub-forum.


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## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> *The first hardware revision of the PS5 looks like a step backwards*
> 
> _
> 
> ...


This was not the first time sony did this, the PS4 Pro got a new model with reduced fan speed for lower noice but increased tempretures, that was over 2 years ago and no complaints for new PS4 PRO so far.








						There's a new PS4 Pro and it's much quieter than the original
					

There’s a new Sony PS4 Pro and it’s much quieter than the original. Right now, it’s only available in a Red Dead Redemption bundle, but eventually, it will likely be available as a standalone product, too. The new CUH-7200 version reportedly dropped the console’s noise from 50 decibels to 44...




					techcrunch.com
				




This new PS5 model comes with the new custom 6nm chip right ? if so it should be slightly efficiant therefor a reduced heatsink woudnt hurt, in the end Sony have great engineers , they wouldn't make a decision like this unless it was calculated and tested for safety



DR4G00N said:


> I know the 360 started out with fancy heatpipe coolers and later turned to extruded aluminum ones. I had the latter, not like I cared though since it worked perfectly fine.


Yeah, even the Xbox one first launched with a copper heat pipe heat sink, but since the One S revision, its just a slap of aluminium with a fan over it like an intel stock heatsink, that was since 2016 and no complaints so far, as you said, its very common practices, as components get efficient and cheaper overtime, manufactures do revision to cut costs and increase profits


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> This was not the first time sony did this, the PS4 Pro got a new model with reduced fan speed for lower noice but increased tempretures, that was over 2 years ago and no complaints for new PS4 PRO so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this is good to know. I did not they had done this so recently. Still, I hope GamersNexus does another review of this model, cause I am NOT comfortable with my console hitting 90-95 Celsius on the VRM's and that was with the first cooling solution. (Yes I know VRM's can withstand a lot... but longevity wise can they?)


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## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> this is good to know. I did not they had done this so recently. Still, I hope GamersNexus does another review of this model, cause I am NOT comfortable with my console hitting 90-95 Celsius on the VRM's and that was with the first cooling solution. (Yes I know VRM's can withstand a lot... but longevity wise can they?)


Believe me launch model PS4 was always on those temps and i see ALOT of people still chugging along with their launch PS4 today without issues, like i said, Sony engineers did their research, the last thing sony wants is defective console on the market


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## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> Believe me launch model PS4 was always on those temps and i see ALOT of people still chugging along with their launch PS4 today without issues, like i said, Sony engineers did their research, the last thing sony wants is defective console on the market



This is a fair point then. Hopefully it all works out. I do know Sony and other console makers have admitted it's time to get rid the of the "BIOS Battery" or at least make it easier to replace so that consoles aren't useless in 10-20 years when those batteries on the console mobo die... so they do make some mistakes mind you, but yeah... I think your argumentation is fair here.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> the PS1 and PS2 had static frequency cpu/gpu's to my knowledge... also it took many many years for the slim/updated models to release not less than a year...  context people...


They also had a history of gimped revisions which removed hardware features. PCBs and overall design was also revised to reduce cost. So far we have no indiciation of reduced performance other than Austin screaming about reduced weight, reduced fan noise and temperature increased by 4C. What stopped him from running side by side performance comparison?


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> other than Austin screaming


Austin?


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Austin?





That guy, the punch in the face fella that's even worse than Linus.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> View attachment 214683
> That guy, the punch in the face fella that's even worse than Linus.


Right, ok. 

To be fair, if he and his crew did better fact-checking and roped in the "spazz" a little bit he'd be much more fun to watch.



Chomiq said:


> What stopped him from running side by side performance comparison?


For curiosity's sake alone a side by side would be great.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Right, ok.
> 
> To be fair, if he and his crew did better fact-checking and roped in the "spazz" a little bit he'd be much more fun to watch.
> 
> ...


You'd imagine that's what people want right? He probably left it for a second video so they can score more $$$ from clicks.

Anyway, folks from Digital Foundry are already planning a video on this. That will most definitely cover the performance aspect. GN will cover thermals and we're set.

Update from DF:


> At worst it will run hotter but the boost frequencies will not change. They are not governed by the cooler, but by an algorithm derived from a single 'model' SoC.


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## R-T-B (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> cause I am NOT comfortable with my console hitting 90-95 Celsius on the VRM's


VRMs are designed for temps well above that.


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## terroralpha (Aug 30, 2021)

i'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that it's possible that they did it because of the rising cost of raw materials. speaking from my work experience, our cost for raw aluminum has nearly doubled in the last year. just in Q1 of this year alone it went up 30%.  i think sony is just doing what they have to to make as many consoles as possible without raising prices.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 30, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Update from DF:



I don't understand what they are talking about, this doesn't make any sense, the algorithm takes into account temperature and power readings. It's not governed by the cooler but it's governed by things affected by the effectiveness of the cooling. 

Plus, how are they even able to tell that the frequencies will not change, do they have debug consoles that display this information ?


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> I don't understand what they are talking about, this doesn't make any sense, the algorithm takes into account temperature and power readings. It's not governed by the cooler but it's governed by things affected by the effectiveness of the cooling.
> 
> Plus, how are they even able to tell that the frequencies will not change, do they have debug consoles that display this information ?


You're talking about boost algo on modern GPU. They're talking about performance on a PS5 APU. More details:


> On PCs, boost is controlled by temperature and current readings off the SoC, but these are, in turn, impacted by factors like part binning and ambient temperature. Sony’s boost mode doesn’t take these factors into consideration. Instead, CPU and GPU clock rates are determined based on monitored system activity. Instead of monitoring the performance of your specific SoC, the boost model Sony deploys is based on a model SoC. Every console uses the same model for how and when to boost frequencies, *keeping performance identical even when air temperature or power draw might allow some chips to push higher*. This keeps performance identical, regardless of ambient temperature.


So if it's PS5 it's going to boost like a PS5 should and not as high as cooling allows it for your specific PS5.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 30, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> You're talking about boost algo on modern GPU. They're talking about performance on a PS5 APU. More details:
> 
> So if it's PS5 it's going to boost like a PS5 should and not as high as cooling allows it for your specific PS5.



So basically SoC temperature has no impact on clocks ? I find this very hard to believe.


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## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> So basically SoC temperature has no impact on clocks ? I find this very hard to believe.











						The PlayStation 5's method for SoC boost allows for dramatic increase in GPU clocks much higher than PCs, no matter the ambient temperature
					

Sony offered details into how the boost clocks of the Zen 2 CPU and RDNA 2 GPU in the PS5's SoC are regulated. Sony's approach of using a constant power but varying frequency should allow all PS5 units to process data in the same manner irrespective of ambient temperature. It also allows the GPU...




					www.notebookcheck.net


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## Vya Domus (Aug 30, 2021)

> In case of the PS5, however, things are a bit different. The console is given a certain power limit *based on the cooling system*.



So cooling does matter ? Worse cooling -> lower power limit -> lower clocks.

This is all extremely contradictory. I have a feeling Sony made these claims just so that nobody would question how the performance would change according to the cooling and ambient temperatures assuming that nobody could detect any difference if there was one. It's very bizarre that you would have an SoC with dynamic clocks that simply ignores temperatures and only takes into account power readings or workloads.


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## FireFox (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> also it took many many years for the slim/updated models to release not less than a year.


Sadly these days it has become standard to release a product and a few months later release an update of it or a new version 



outpt said:


> death to consoles long live the PC Master race.


I wouldn't like to see the death of the Consoles, some people cant afford to build a PC and a Console even they are expensive but still more affordable.



lynx29 said:


> Sony won't be getting a penny from me. PC for life!!!


Sony will still get some money from me because there are a few Games i play but are just for the PlayStation brand


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

Raw material cost increases are no doubt the main driver behind this. But I'd also expect Sony to have _tons_ of thermal metrics collected from PS5 users around the world in all kinds of usage scenarios, which has likely told them all they need to in order to cut the heatsink down significantly while still ensuring that it has sufficient cooling capacity.

It's entirely possible that the original design was over-engineered (though we've seen evidence of piss-poor RAM cooling, on the verge of being an issue, this change doesn't really affect that), so this might just be bringing things into a more sensible balance.

I'd be wary of linking airflow temps too closely to SoC temps though - that's a very complex interplay between airflow, thermal mass, surface area, ambient temperatures, etc. Hopefully someone can stick some thermocouples in there and actually take some readings.



Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> This new PS5 model comes with the new custom 6nm chip right ?


You mean 7nm, right? Or has there been a die shrink that literally nobody has written about? AFAIK there is no change in the underlying hardware of this.


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## P4-630 (Aug 30, 2021)

Sony recommends that both the PlayStation 5 and PlayStation 5 Digital Edition to be operated in a temperature range between 5°C to 35°C (which is *41°F to 95°F*)


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## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> Sony recommends that both the PlayStation 5 and PlayStation 5 Digital Edition to be operated in a temperature range between 5°C to 35°C (which is *41°F to 95°F*)


That's pretty standard, no? Most electronics tend to have specified operating temperatures.


----------



## Bones (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Steve at GamersNexus already showed the ram or VRM's were hitting 90+ celsius on the original PS5 cooling design.  Longevity is important to me in consoles, plus as the video I linked in post 1 showed... 5 celsius may not sound like much, but if it effects the frequency to much it could have negative impact on gaming experience, and no because Sony would have had to test every PS5 game from start to finish to see if there are certain areas of certain games that end up hitching due to a lower boost clock (if there is even a lower boost close remains to be seen... so we simply need more research and reviews at this point)
> 
> Also, the Gamers Nexuys thing, can't remember if it was ram or VRM's, but how does the 5 celsius on the APU increase effect those other temps? That's another set of research done we need... cause if we knocking on 100 celsius now on the VRM's... longevity...
> 
> also, just to clarfiy a bit:  I was actually waiting on a PS5 revision that would IMPROVE cooling not add 5 celsius more... based on steve from gamersnexus testing of the PS5 claiming it ran a little hot for comfort. so that's why I made this thread... it's not that 5 celsius is a massive deal (testing pending and more reviews etc) its mostly that I legit was hoping a future revision would improve the cooling, this is a step backwards imo, which ironically is the title of the article I linked, but it is true imo.


Longevity has already been affected by the choice of TIM used (LM) so it's most likely not going to last 5 years without an issue.
EDIT:
If the coolers are using nickel plating, then LM won't be a factor in terms of longevity but if not..... That means it won't end well in a few years - We'll see.

Sony still uses the lead free solder (Silver Solder) that was used in the older PS3's that has massive problems with it cracking due to thermal expansion and contraction over time. The only real solution is to reball the chips with standard 60/40 Tin/Lead solder so hopefully it never happens again.
People that's has it done so far say no issues once the reballing has been done that way.

Also the thing about how high thermals are being allowed to get is only contributing to that problem, the hotter it gets the more thermal expansion you'll have and that just "Works" the solder even more per heating and cooling cycle.
I'd not be as worried about the VRM's as much but that isn't an issue you just sweep under the rug either, it's actually smart to pay it a bit of mind and improve that too if possible.


----------



## Naito (Aug 30, 2021)

Would like to see a comparison between the original and the revision in terms of die temperatures and boost clocks. It seems counterintuitive to reduce the cooler's effectiveness in a system that relies on boost clocks. Surely it'd be even less likely to hit the maximum specified clocks now?


----------



## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

Naito said:


> Would like to see a comparison between the original and the revision in terms of die temperatures and boost clocks. It seems counterintuitive to reduce the cooler's effectiveness in a system that relies on boost clocks. Surely it'd be even less likely to hit the maximum specified clocks now?


As far as I'm aware you have no way to measure boost clocks on PS5. The only thing you can do is wire it up with thermocouples to measure temperature at the component level and then do a pure performance comparison against the older SKU.


----------



## ppn (Aug 30, 2021)

You shouldn't be getting PS5 nonPro regardless. Just wait for the Pro on 5nm and play on higher FPS, don't ruin the experience with this early model capped performance. That cooler is suboptimal, the heatsink should run around the fan, now 5cm away from it. Whether 1200 grams or 1500 grams, it's worse than regular videocards. A lot of lost efficiency there. Just make it look 1:1 like the RTX 3090 or 3070, it is 250 watts after all, so similar cooling would do. And can't you just make your own water loops and get rid of the stock cooling anyway.


----------



## Aquinus (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> also, just to clarfiy a bit: I was actually waiting on a PS5 revision that would IMPROVE cooling not add 5 celsius more... based on steve from gamersnexus testing of the PS5 claiming it ran a little hot for comfort. so that's why I made this thread... it's not that 5 celsius is a massive deal (testing pending and more reviews etc) its mostly that I legit was hoping a future revision would improve the cooling, this is a step backwards imo, which ironically is the title of the article I linked, but it is true imo.


I'm pretty sure that we all understand that. The real question is if that difference in temperature will actually result in a tangible performance degradation. Without knowing how much thermal headroom there is or how much compute headroom there is, then there really is no way to know for certain without having both devices and running the same scene on them multiple times while using some HDMI capture thing to do some analysis on the outputted frames.

All in all, I bet the difference will be minimal. I seriously doubt that Sony would dump all of this money into the PS5 only to gimp it. Sony as a company isn't dumb and understands what bad PR can do.


----------



## P4-630 (Aug 30, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That's pretty standard, no? Most electronics tend to have specified operating temperatures.


That's what I mean.


----------



## AsRock (Aug 30, 2021)

90c is crazy now they lessened the cooling more, and i bet these people who are doing these tests are in a well air conditioned room too. There is even less chance of me getting one now even if these changes make no performance difference.


----------



## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Aug 30, 2021)

Valantar said:


> You mean 7nm, right? Or has there been a die shrink that literally nobody has written about? AFAIK there is no change in the underlying hardware of this.


No, Sony was i discussion with TSMC to book custom 6nm node for future PS5 models 









						Sony Reportedly Prepping PS5 With 6nm AMD CPU
					

Sony's partners are gearing up for a redesigned PS5.




					www.tomshardware.com
				






Chomiq said:


> Anyway, folks from Digital Foundry are already planning a video on this. That will most definitely cover the performance aspect. GN will cover thermals and we're set.


Consoles are fixed performance, developers do extensive optimization to extract as much fidelity with what performance a console has, variable console performance would make matters more complicated.

New console revisions are just temperatures, acoustics, power consumption , weight, ect...



AsRock said:


> 90c is crazy now they lessened the cooling more, and i bet these people who are doing these tests are in a well air conditioned room too. There is even less chance of me getting one now even if these changes make no performance difference.


these temps are not that uncommon among consoles, even pre built PCs often and reference GPUs run at those temps


----------



## AsRock (Aug 30, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> No, Sony was i discussion with TSMC to book custom 6nm node for future PS5 models
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure, and i do what i can to stay well away from those temps too, how ever with the terrible design which clearly they cared more for comes first.


----------



## Rahnak (Aug 30, 2021)

Not too surprising if you consider how much the price of raw materials has been rising. I don't think Sony would do this if they didn't think they had the headroom. The other option was to raise the price and that wasn't gonna happen.

For anyone concerned wait until the inevitable slim re-design. Those are usually more efficient.


----------



## Kissamies (Aug 30, 2021)

Well, I haven't had any interest at all in any point so nothing to lose here. 

But it's simply so damn common for manufacturers to make changes to hardware without any notice.


----------



## dorsetknob (Aug 30, 2021)

Aquinus said:


> Sony as a company isn't dumb and understands what bad PR can do.


Seem to Remember that a few years ago that the above Comment is misleading

anyone else remember Sony's Audio CD Rootkit Debacle
For those young'in's Read this








						Sony BMG copy protection rootkit scandal - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dragontamer5788 (Aug 30, 2021)

I'm on PS4-Pro model. So unlike a lot of PS4 fans, I only bought my PS4 a few years ago, and still have a decent backlog. I think I'll be able to wait for the PS5-refresh, bit it a hypothetical slim model or "pro" edition. Either way, I'd expect the hardware to be a bit better by then.

This heatsink is definitely cheaper and worse. There's a couple of crap articles who clearly don't understand thermodynamics going around the internet, so I feel like putting my $0.02 into the discussion. But a "worse heatsink" isn't necessarily a worse design. We'll need to investigate a bit more to see if the few degrees-C changes anything. I doubt it however, I expect the original heatsink was probably just over-built.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 30, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> No, Sony was i discussion with TSMC to book custom 6nm node for future PS5 models
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting! IMO quite unlikely to be used for such a low-key refresh though - if the power savings from a node shrink are so minor as to barely warrant a heatsink update, and not a wholesale console shrink (especially given the _gargantuan_ size of the PS5), they likely wouldn't be willing to pay the (potentially tens of) millions of dollars needed to make it happen. It would also be the first large die mass produced on the N6 node, which ... I guess they could be, but it seems early considering that N6 volumes are only just picking up compared to N7. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw an update/slim/whatever at CES or similar though, given that TSMC is promising N6 output to match N7 output by the end of the year. I could always be wrong, but this doesn't seem like change on the scale of a die shrink.


----------



## Colddecked (Aug 30, 2021)

Sony probably found out they overengineered the original cooling solution.  As long as it makes it past the warranty period, what do they care.
Highly doubt this will affect boost clocks, Sony never said clock speeds were based on temps, but based on power.    Yes it'll run closer to the thermal limit, but don't believe it's anywhere close enough where you're in danger of thermal shutdown.


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that 90% of console gamers are not gaming with a Freesync display, so there will be some stuttering here and there. Consoles are trying to act like PC's too much these days, and the end user is about to find out what that means. If they get a freesync display, I agree it probably won't be noticeable. Also though... its the bait and switch moral of the story here too... really crappy of Sony.



Weren't consoles always a stuttery mess? I mean, the PS3 with sub 30 fps framerates in, truth be told, graphically intensive titles is something I remember vividly. Fallout 3... Heavenly Sword... Holy crap man. It doesn't even matter if its first party or not. I mean... even PS2's Shadow the Colossus was an odd deal in terms of framerates and stutter. Whole sequences as long as a second could just run like staggered frames, as if the half of them got skipped in between. Turn around too fast, and similar things happen in tons of titles. Even on the PC... except we have more flexibility to fix that.

Maybe they're just trying to continue the norm eh, much like how Ubisoft tried to tell the world 30 fps was the best framerate for gaming. Nudges to accomodate an easy and low bar to achieve for people to call things 'Okay'. After all, you do get used to shitty framerates. You adjust to them. Its just a tiny subset of people that won't adjust because they know better.

But whatever it is... Playstations have been problematic since the PS3 onwards. Loud or hot, or just breaking down after rather short time in one way or another. Major design fails are not uncommon either, such as plastic (cheap) lenses for the bluray drive...

Expecting otherwise, to be fair... is surprising. Consoles will always be mass produced and tweaked to give as little as possible for as much money as possible. Just enough to keep people in the ecosystem. And the main differentiator for that, is really not hardware... its the content. Like you said, too. The content is what I like about Sony too... and most likely its the content that'll make them get away with it once more.


----------



## Chomiq (Aug 30, 2021)

Well here's an interesting note - that teardown was done on a PS5 Digital, not the drive model. People actually own B chassis of the full fat PS5 say it weighs the same as the original one.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Aug 30, 2021)

Jill Valentine said:


> Well, I haven't had any interest at all in any point so nothing to lose here.


I do, but I'm going to wait for a PS5 Slim. That current hulking monstrosity is just too much..


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 30, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Weren't consoles always a stuttery mess? I mean, the PS3 with sub 30 fps framerates in, truth be told, graphically intensive titles is something I remember vividly. Fallout 3... Heavenly Sword... Holy crap man. It doesn't even matter if its first party or not. I mean... even PS2's Shadow the Colossus was an odd deal in terms of framerates and stutter. Whole sequences as long as a second could just run like staggered frames, as if the half of them got skipped in between. Turn around too fast, and similar things happen in tons of titles. Even on the PC... except we have more flexibility to fix that.
> 
> Maybe they're just trying to continue the norm eh, much like how Ubisoft tried to tell the world 30 fps was the best framerate for gaming. Nudges to accomodate an easy and low bar to achieve for people to call things 'Okay'. After all, you do get used to shitty framerates. You adjust to them. Its just a tiny subset of people that won't adjust because they know better.
> 
> ...



I never owned PS3 and PS4 as I mentioned in previous posts.

PS1 and PS2 were just fine to me.


----------



## Naito (Aug 31, 2021)

Colddecked said:


> Highly doubt this will affect boost clocks, Sony never said clock speeds were based on temps, but based on power. Yes it'll run closer to the thermal limit, but don't believe it's anywhere close enough where you're in danger of thermal shutdown.



Even if they don't directly make use of temperature readings in the equation for the boost clocks, it will still have an affect. The hotter the chip, the higher the power usage. Voltage and clocks then come into play to help prevent damage to the chip. If the console is running hot all the time, not only would it shorten the life it, you'd also experience less performance in operation


----------



## Colddecked (Aug 31, 2021)

Naito said:


> Even if they don't directly make use of temperature readings in the equation for the boost clocks, it will still have an affect. The hotter the chip, the higher the power usage. Voltage and clocks then come into play to help prevent damage to the chip. If the console is running hot all the time, not only would it shorten the life it, you'd also experience less performance in operation



Higher temps dont necessarily mean higher power target. Sony wouldnt risk the outrage theyd get if they lower their boost clock.  They wont change just because its 15 degrees to TJmax instead of 20.  Theyll let them run hotter and yes it could have an impact on lifespan but itll still last past the warranty.


----------



## R0H1T (Aug 31, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> There has been no known silicon revision that would dramatically reduce power usage or heat generation


They'll probably move to 6nm or 5nm eventually, they'll just have to as is tradition in the console market. Not necessarily this year or even the next, though it will happen.

Smaller node, better yields, less heat, more efficiency ~ what's not to like?

The only think stopping AMD is really TSMC's capacity!


----------



## nguyen (Aug 31, 2021)

Look like a big downgrade in cooling capacity, like going from 240mm rad to 120mm rad by looking at fins count.
Without the copper base, VRAM and VRM thermal are gonna be sky high.
What the warranty duration on these PS5? 1 year?


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 31, 2021)

nguyen said:


> Look like a big downgrade in cooling capacity, like going from 240mm rad to 120mm rad by looking at fins count.
> Without the copper base, VRAM and VRM thermal are gonna be sky high.
> What the warranty duration on these PS5? 1 year?



I just googled it, it is only 1 year... that is a little... disconcerting...


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I just googled it, it is only 1 year... that is a little... disconcerting...



I believe Xbox 360 was the same.  That warranty aged well...  lol.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Sep 4, 2021)

In general, all these companies want their shit to break more(up to a certain point) so you buy more shit. They really don't care about waste. Its not like years ago how stuff was built to last & if and when something breaks, you can get it repaired at a reasonable price or have the repairs covered by an extended warranty.


----------



## simlife (Sep 4, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I want more than just benchmarks though, I want a side by side playthrough of the same game on same tv's, same settings across the board, and see if we see any hitching or stuttering during like big fight scenes when a lot of characters are on screen all of the sudden, etc.  if both systems hitch for 0.5 seconds at the same time during scenes like that, or if just the one running hotter does it... then we will have our answer.
> 
> just numbers benchmarks is not good enough imo, it needs to be a purely visual testing setup.


why... like why.... that is super analizing stuff... that is ment for pc... and your crying about something HIGH paid ppl who know stuff more then you before you SEEANYTHING...


lynx29 said:


> This is a fair point then. Hopefully it all works out. I do know Sony and other console makers have admitted it's time to get rid the of the "BIOS Battery" or at least make it easier to replace so that consoles aren't useless in 10-20 years when those batteries on the console mobo die... so they do make some mistakes mind you, but yeah... I think your argumentation is fair here.


who da hell is regularly playing on consoles 10-20 or so years old... that that would be a issue.. are you playing on the ps2 right now?  do you comprehend backswords compatibility....

perhaps if your... odd and toxic crying about daddy with that end of your name you helped him invest and not over invest with the 8,000 post  and cry about using a console "10-20" years later... a 400 dollar ps4 running 20 years later you should be praying to sony for something that is under 5 cents a day still working...  under 5 cents its 2.50 to 3.00 for soda a a restaurant right now...pick your battles kid....( and comprehend extended math at least a little...)

heck ppl pay 1.5-3times more for phones they give up under 3 year and have regular for over a decade... i assume with the 10-20 years you crying about you have a old old flip phone? if not then wtf... for real...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2021)

simlife said:


> who da hell is regularly playing on consoles 10-20 or so years old..


I do. I play on my SNES regularly.


simlife said:


> that would be a issue..


Why?


simlife said:


> are you playing on the ps2 right now?


What's wrong with PS2? Lots of great games there..

Old doesn't mean worthless or useless..


simlife said:


> perhaps if your... odd and toxic crying about daddy with that end of your name you helped him invest and not over invest with the 8,000 post and cry about using a console "10-20" years later... a 400 dollar ps4 running 20 years later you should be praying to sony for something that is under 5 cents a day still working... under 5 cents its 2.50 to 3.00 for soda a a restaurant right now...pick your battles kid....
> 
> heck ppl pay 1.5-3times more for phones they give up under 3 year and have regular for over a decade... i assume with the 10-20 years you crying about you have a old old flip phone?


Oh please stop with the nonsense...


----------



## Tardian (Sep 4, 2021)

> According to reports, the new PS5—essentially a PS5 Pro—would use a new “semi-customized” 6-nanometer CPU from AMD instead of the 7nm custom 8-core AMD Zen 2 CPU found in the current PS5. This would mean a more powerful, more efficient console, though it’s unclear why these new semiconductors would be easier to come by than the current ones. Perhaps it just makes more sense to implement the mid-lifecycle upgrade sooner than later given current shortages. (The PS4 Pro came out 3 years into the PS4’s lifecycle).











						When The New PS5 Pro Could Hit Shelves And What To Expect
					

A faster, redesigned PlayStation 5 could hit shelves sooner than anyone predicted.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 4, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> View attachment 214683
> That guy, the punch in the face fella that's even worse than Linus.


Nah, Linus is a stooge



Tardian said:


> When The New PS5 Pro Could Hit Shelves And What To Expect
> 
> 
> A faster, redesigned PlayStation 5 could hit shelves sooner than anyone predicted.
> ...



I see it like this just buy a v1 ps5 lok


----------



## Batou1986 (Sep 8, 2021)

Guess its time for everyone in this thread to eat crow, looks like the giant heatsink in the V1 was overkill and actually restricting airflow.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2021)

Batou1986 said:


> Guess its time for everyone in this thread to eat crow, looks like the giant heatsink in the V1 was overkill and actually restricting airflow.



Call me when Steve from GamersNexus use his advanced equipment to test the VRM's in the new one.  Steve tested 95 Celsius on the VRM's on first PS5 review he did, and he had way more advanced equipment than this guy... so I mean... I am taking that 44 celsius VRM temp here with a grain of salt... I trust Steve from GamersNexus way more...


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

I have used all my magic and will hopefully soon own a new PS5. However, for the 'time poor' souls on TPU who didn't click the link in my above post, I will manage up to provide this quote:



> According to reports, the new PS5—essentially a PS5 Pro—would use a new “semi-customized” 6-nanometer CPU from AMD instead of the 7nm custom 8-core AMD Zen 2 CPU found in the current PS5. This would mean a more powerful, *more efficient console*, though it’s unclear why these new semiconductors would be easier to come by than the current ones.


----------



## xkm1948 (Sep 9, 2021)

I had a gut feeling this is one of lynx29 post from the title. I am not disappointed


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2021)

xkm1948 said:


> I had a gut feeling this is one of lynx29 post from the title. I am not disappointed



I'm bit eccentric I know, but y'all love me anyway.

For the record I still love Sony in general - PS branding, the title of this thread is simply that moment when your crush tells you she is not interested in you.

Steve from GamersNexus said he was not impressed with cooling on original PS5 model... so when I saw those pics of the heatsink comparison, I was hoping for just the opposite... more copper not less. lol


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I'm bit eccentric I know, but y'all love me anyway.


True!


lynx29 said:


> more copper not less. lol


Copper is way expensive ATM.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> True!
> 
> Copper is way expensive ATM.



and this is free market capitalism! what are they waiting for? Sony, raise the price to $699 and call it the Copper Edition PS5!  hire me as a copper miner! play metal music, give me a pick axe!!! HERE WE ******* GO BOYS!!!! THIS IS THE FREE MARKETS!!! WHAT THEY WAITING FOR!!!! I'LL FORGE IT TOO! CREATE A FORGE LEXXY BOYO!!!

*jumps on desk and headbangs*  ah if only the free markets worked the way they do in my fantasies! what glory we would behold!


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> and this is free market capitalism! what are they waiting for? Sony, raise the price to $699 and call it the Copper Edition PS5!  hire me as a copper miner! play metal music, give me a pick axe!!! HERE WE ******* GO BOYS!!!! THIS IS THE FREE MARKETS!!! WHAT THEY WAITING FOR!!!! I'LL FORGE IT TOO! CREATE A FORGE LEXXY BOYO!!!
> 
> *jumps on desk and headbangs*  ah if only the free markets worked the way they do in my fantasies! what glory we would behold!


LOL Free Market? Try and get your mitts on a PS5 in the real world. You could pay scalpers $$$$ for a 'new' PS5.


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 9, 2021)

Title updated per OP's request.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2021)

Tardian said:


> LOL Free Market? Try and get your mitts on a PS5 in the real world. You could pay scalpers $$$$ for a 'new' PS5.



ye. I meant it sarcastically. but also the offer is on the table Sony. just let me know when my plane ticket and pick axe arrive, I will single handedly stop this shortage, with the Dwarves of the Second Age!!!    We will sing and we will mine! Copper PS5 will be ours!



Fourstaff said:


> Title updated per OP's request.



Thank you!!!   



Tardian said:


> When The New PS5 Pro Could Hit Shelves And What To Expect
> 
> 
> A faster, redesigned PlayStation 5 could hit shelves sooner than anyone predicted.
> ...



I still don't understand what the future 6nm PS5 has to do with the heatsink change though we are discussing here? The 6nm is not here yet.


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 9, 2021)

Quick, everyone jump the 6nm train so you'll avoid 7nm node being overbooked by everyone!


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2021)

Batou1986 said:


> Guess its time for everyone in this thread to eat crow, looks like the giant heatsink in the V1 was overkill and actually restricting airflow.


If accurate (it's not like they detail their test methodology or thermocouple placements) that is pretty impressive. Still need to know where they measured those temperatures though. Though it's mainly an indictment of the original heatsink rather than praise for the new one - if the improvements come from the new design no longer being massively restrictive, that's more fixing a major flaw than _improving_ the console. Still, that also makes many of us rather naive in arguing from the assumption of an already good heatsink (and thus discussing the possibility of this being better/worse than a competently made baseline), rather than arguing from "the stock heatsink is crap, (how) does this improve things?" It is after all much, much harder to go from "good" to "better" than "bad" to "good" in heatsink design.

Edit: oh, I see in the video description that what they mean by "memory" is the SSD - and the NAND, not the controller. Tbh, who cares? That's a pretty stupid measurement to make IMO. RAM temperatures would have been _far_ more interesting.


lynx29 said:


> Call me when Steve from GamersNexus use his advanced equipment to test the VRM's in the new one.  Steve tested 95 Celsius on the VRM's on first PS5 review he did, and he had way more advanced equipment than this guy... so I mean... I am taking that 44 celsius VRM temp here with a grain of salt... I trust Steve from GamersNexus way more...


Aris is the same person who does TPU's PSU reviews, so I would say he's pretty trustworthy. That being said, the massive differences in VRM and VRAM temperatures between his numbers and GN's numbers makes me wary - there's no way they are measuring the same thing. GN did explicitly seek out parts they thought looked poorly cooled, which Aris might not have.

(edit: see above regarding "memory" temperatures)


Tardian said:


> I have used all my magic and will hopefully soon own a new PS5. However, for the 'time poor' souls on TPU who didn't click the link in my above post, I will manage up to provide this quote:


What relevance does that have to this? That post is discussing a future "PS5 Pro", not this minor refresh. There is zero indication of this refresh having a new APU.


Tardian said:


> LOL Free Market? Try and get your mitts on a PS5 in the real world. You could pay scalpers $$$$ for a 'new' PS5.


That is exactly how "free" (as in unregulated) markets tend to work. Those with resources are free to screw over those lacking them.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 9, 2021)

simlife said:


> who da hell is regularly playing on consoles 10-20 or so years old... that that would be a issue.. are you playing on the ps2 right now?


I still play on my Super Nintendo, PS1/PS2, nothing wrong with that


----------



## TheLostSwede (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> If accurate (it's not like they detail their test methodology or thermocouple placements) that is pretty impressive. Still need to know where they measured those temperatures though. Though it's mainly an indictment of the original heatsink rather than praise for the new one - if the improvements come from the new design no longer being massively restrictive, that's more fixing a major flaw than _improving_ the console. Still, that also makes many of us rather naive in arguing from the assumption of an already good heatsink (and thus discussing the possibility of this being better/worse than a competently made baseline), rather than arguing from "the stock heatsink is crap, (how) does this improve things?" It is after all much, much harder to go from "good" to "better" than "bad" to "good" in heatsink design.
> 
> Edit: oh, I see in the video description that what they mean by "memory" is the SSD - and the NAND, not the controller. Tbh, who cares? That's a pretty stupid measurement to make IMO. RAM temperatures would have been _far_ more interesting.
> 
> ...


All details can be found here








						Sony Playstation 5 - Why the new PS5 is even better than the old one and a superficial view is dangerous | Important Update | igor'sLAB
					

Disclaimer: The following article is machine translated from the original German, and has not been edited or checked for errors. Thank you for understanding!




					www.igorslab.de
				




It's a bit hard to test the memory temperature with the EMI shield in place.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> If accurate (it's not like they detail their test methodology or thermocouple placements) that is pretty impressive. Still need to know where they measured those temperatures though. Though it's mainly an indictment of the original heatsink rather than praise for the new one - if the improvements come from the new design no longer being massively restrictive, that's more fixing a major flaw than _improving_ the console. Still, that also makes many of us rather naive in arguing from the assumption of an already good heatsink (and thus discussing the possibility of this being better/worse than a competently made baseline), rather than arguing from "the stock heatsink is crap, (how) does this improve things?" It is after all much, much harder to go from "good" to "better" than "bad" to "good" in heatsink design.
> 
> Edit: oh, I see in the video description that what they mean by "memory" is the SSD - and the NAND, not the controller. Tbh, who cares? That's a pretty stupid measurement to make IMO. RAM temperatures would have been _far_ more interesting.
> 
> ...


Unicorn = PS5 both to mere mortals are never/rarely seen in real life. I had to pull some real strings today to get my hands on one.  

Free market for PS5? Scalpers and Big Business account for what % of the total.  

Regarding the test: exhaust gas temperature is fairly reliable.



> Measured temperatures in comparison​First, let’s look at the temperature evolution as warming continues. We can already see here that the supposedly bad cooler keeps the processor over 10 degrees cooler! This is almost a small galaxy and the 27.6 percentage points almost have the character of a small sensation. The NAND memory (partially labeled as Memory in the charts) does suffer a bit and gets over 7 degrees warmer on the new PS5, but still remains in the perfectly safe range. The voltage converters of the new PS5 are not even 1.5 degrees warmer, only at the air outlet it is about 2.4 degrees more.
> Let’s compare the final temperatures after heating again as a clearer bar graph. Of course, the assessments just made apply here as well. So, the new cooling solution can be said to perform better, not worse, and it was this very fact that prompted Aris’ video and today’s article. You can really only judge a product if you have actually tested it, everything else is superfluous and wrong.
> *Fan load and operating noise*
> One can only attest one thing to the fan operation: absolute equality! The assumption that the smaller cooler would need more revs to keep up has once again been very impressively disproved with this measurement. It also underlines that the new cooler works partially even better than the cooler of the old PS5 under the same conditions. You can only congratulate the engineers at Sony.


Thank you TheLostSwede. The premise for the article is now in ruins.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2021)

Tardian said:


> Free market for PS5? Scalpers and Big Business account for what % of the total.


Hm? Either you didn't read what I wrote, or you didn't understand it at all.


TheLostSwede said:


> All details can be found here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link! Definitely a lot of useful detail there.

I have to question the reasoning when they say 


> if you miss the RAM in the listing, I can reassure you. Clamping probes between the memory module and the thermal pads below the heatsink is a bad idea, because the cooling works a degree worse. We have tested this and found it to be questionable because it is too inaccurate. The values would be significantly higher than in real operation.


That is superficially reasonable, but why not then measure RAM temperatures in the same way as the others - on the other side of the RF shield? If that's somehow good enough for SoC core temperatures (which IMO it isn't, though I guess for the sake of a like-for-like comparison it's likely sufficiently reliable), it should definitely be for the RAM, no? At least that's located on the same side of the PCB as the sensors, unlike the SoC.

I overall completely agree that trying to insert a thermocouple between a heat source and heatsink is a bad idea, but IMO they could have found better placements for the sensors here. Why not on the cold plate, next to the heatpipes or heatsink? Stick some blue-tack or similar putty over it and you won't get notable interference from airflow, and you'll have a direct thermal pathway to the core, unlike measuring from the RF shield on the opposite side of the PCB. And I still don't get why SSD temperatures are interesting at all. Unless they're running a game with _tons_ of asset streaming or crazy long load times, the SSD is likely to be idle 99% of the time while playing.

I don't doubt their findings, but that methodology still seems pretty flawed.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Hm? Either you didn't read what I wrote, or you didn't understand it at all.
> 
> Thanks for the link! Definitely a lot of useful detail there.
> 
> ...


What part of the infrared first portion didn't you understand? This looks like: Ooops we made a mistake  ...  smoke and mirrors  ... classic misdirection.  I vote the whole article gets deleted.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Hm? Either you didn't read what I wrote, or you didn't understand it at all.
> 
> Thanks for the link! Definitely a lot of useful detail there.
> 
> ...


I guess the reason the SSD temperature is interesting is because Sony did their own controller for it. It's really the only thing I can think of.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> I guess the reason the SSD temperature is interesting is because Sony did their own controller for it. It's really the only thing I can think of.


Yeah, that's likely. Still pretty odd though, especially given that according to both Aris' video and the article they're measuring the NAND and not the controller.



Tardian said:


> What part of the infrared first portion didn't you understand? This looks like: Ooops we made a mistake  ...  smoke and mirrors  ... classic misdirection.  I vote the whole article gets deleted.


What article? The Igor's lab one? Why? Also, what are you talking about overall? I was responding to your response to my "free" market comment, yet you're addressing me about ... infrared measurements? How is that relevant to what I said to you? To reiterate: I responded to your "LOL free market?" comment saying that this is exactly how "free" (as in unregulated) markets work, by allowing anyone with resources to exploit anyone and anything. That's what happens in unregulated markets. Always. So, what we are seeing now is the predictable and entirely normal consequence of the "free" market that conservatives and neoliberals (not that the two aren't the same most places today) love: exploitation by the rich/able for their own gain, with zero consequences.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Yeah, that's likely. Still pretty odd though, especially given that according to both Aris' video and the article they're measuring the NAND and not the controller.
> 
> 
> What article? The Igor's lab one? Why? Also, what are you talking about overall? I was responding to your response to my "free" market comment, yet you're addressing me about ... infrared measurements? How is that relevant to what I said to you? To reiterate: I responded to your "LOL free market?" comment saying that this is exactly how "free" (as in unregulated) markets work, by allowing anyone with resources to exploit anyone and anything. That's what happens in unregulated markets. Always. So, what we are seeing now is the predictable and entirely normal consequence of the "free" market that conservatives and neoliberals (not that the two aren't the same most places today) love: exploitation by the rich/able for their own gain, with zero consequences.


WoW your grasp of economics is soooo humbling!


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2021)

Tardian said:


> WoW your grasp of economics is soooo humbling!


... It was a semi-snarky comment to your "LOL free markets" post. As simple as that. I'm not claiming to know much about economics at all. That unregulated markets tend towards exploitation, oligarchy and monopoly is hardly a new idea. But it is often prudent to repeat when someone seems to conflate "free markets" with "fair/open markets", as you did in that post. Take that as you will.

I still have no idea what you mean about deleting some article though.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> All details can be found here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It doesn't explain how GamersNexus got 90+ celsius on the VRM's in the original PS5 and this guy only had 44 Celsius... I am not saying this guy is wrong exactly, but the discrepancy is to much to be believed imo... still waiting for Steve from GamersNexus.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> It doesn't explain how GamersNexus got 90+ celsius on the VRM's in the original PS5 and this guy only had 44 Celsius... I am not saying this guy is wrong exactly, but the discrepancy is to much to be believed imo... still waiting for Steve from GamersNexus.


Tech Jesus is overrated imho.
As for results, it all comes down to how you test and where you place the thermal probes in this instance.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> It doesn't explain how GamersNexus got 90+ celsius on the VRM's in the original PS5 and this guy only had 44 Celsius... I am not saying this guy is wrong exactly, but the discrepancy is to much to be believed imo... still waiting for Steve from GamersNexus.


Steve is shit. He will talk ad infinitum about his favourite brand and 'not' report on frametime spikes when he does not want to lose credit of his master.
Anyway, 3d design has improved fan kinetics a great deal, nowadays they can separate wake floe from head flow and only focus on impeller designs that generate good laminar flow. In a couple of years we will have fans as quiet as backward curved impellers with the pressure of forward and air volume of axial fans.


----------



## IceShroom (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I am taking that 44 celsius VRM temp here with a grain of salt... I trust Steve from GamersNexus way more...


Looks like it is delta temperature. Add your ambient temperature and you will get your standard temperature.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 9, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Steve is shit. He will talk ad infinitum about his favourite brand and 'not' report on frametime spikes when he does not want to lose credit of his master.


Got anything to back that up? Also, his "master"? Is there any semi-prominent hardware reviewer _less_ afraid to explicitly call out bad actors when they see them than GN?


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> ... It was a semi-snarky comment to your "LOL free markets" post. As simple as that. I'm not claiming to know much about economics at all. That unregulated markets tend towards exploitation, oligarchy and monopoly is hardly a new idea. But it is often prudent to repeat when someone seems to conflate "free markets" with "fair/open markets", as you did in that post. Take that as you will.
> 
> *I still have no idea what you mean about deleting some article though.*





> Defamation is a statement that injures a third party's reputation.


I think that this thread formerly entitled: "Sony and Playstation 5 have just lost all my respect and desire to want one. Terrible move Sony..." should be deleted.
As I stated above "The premise for the article is now in ruins." 


> Defamation is the publication of material that could lead an ordinary, reasonable person to think less of you.
> Defamatory matter can be published by any means of communication – spoken or written words, signs, social media posts, pictures or gestures. Defamation can take place anywhere.
> Publication is the communication of the defamatory material to any other person, excluding the person whom it is alleged has been defamed. This may be private conversations, letters, radio, television, newspapers and anything online. This includes Facebook comments, article comments, Twitter and email.
> 
> ...


Now the TPU legal team needs to consider:


> *Defences*
> Even if a statement is defamatory, there are circumstances in which such statements are permissible in law.
> Proving adverse public character statements to be true is often the best defense against a prosecution for libel or defamation. Statements of opinion that cannot be proven true or false will likely need to apply some other kind of defense.
> Another important aspect of defamation is the difference between fact and opinion. Statements made as "facts" are frequently actionable defamation. Statements of opinion or pure opinion are not actionable. Some jurisdictions decline to recognize any legal distinction between fact and opinion. To win damages in a libel case, the plaintiff must first show that the statements were "statements of fact or mixed statements of opinion and fact" and second that these statements were false. Conversely, a typical defense to defamation is that the statements are opinion, relying on opinion privilege. One of the major tests to distinguish whether a statement is fact or opinion is whether the statement can be proved true or false in a court of law. If the statement can be proved true or false, then, on that basis, the case will be heard by a jury to determine whether it is true or false. If the statement cannot be proved true or false, the court may dismiss the libel case without it ever going to a jury to find facts in the case.
> ...


Free speech and protection of the press are not unfettered. Was the factual basis of the original article sufficiently grounded in truth? I am trying to encourage TPU to protect itself.

Do you want the Gaming/Console market to be regulated? I think most would regard the rights of consumers as more important than those of criminal gangs?


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I never owned PS3 and PS4 as I mentioned in previous posts.
> 
> PS1 and PS2 were just fine to me.



Agreed. They had much more reliable performance.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 9, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Agreed. They had much more reliable performance.


I found the three PS3 consoles we have owned to be exceptionally reliable. They also worked well as blu-ray players in the early days. PS4 minus the UHD blu-ray player was a mistake.  PS5 rectifies this error.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 9, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Agreed. They had much more reliable performance.



yep those were the good days, no patches, no internet, just enjoying life. those were days boys those were the days.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 9, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Is there any semi-prominent hardware reviewer _less_ afraid to explicitly call out bad actors when they see them than GN?


I have just one comment with your stupid remark: if you are going to take sides, don't try to be the judge.


Valantar said:


> Got anything to back that up? Also, his "master"?


Of course, I have something to back that up. Go to his gpuboost reviews and how he omits those "huge" spikes being verbally mentioned in the article.
He is no better at shilling than you are.


> The clock-rate remains mostly stable throughout the majority of the test, but is not a perfectly flat line – that's the ideal output.



PS: if you are looking for journalism, you might want to stick around myself as I, too, was a journalist until someone didn't want to upset relations to announce the stock crash of 2018 two years prior...


----------



## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Sep 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I just googled it, it is only 1 year... that is a little... disconcerting...


wow really?
1 year is an aweful warranty


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 10, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> wow really?
> 1 year is an aweful warranty



yep. not sure wth Sony is thinking honestly, they should be more proud of their flagship product than that. if I buy a PS5 it will be with the extra 4 year warranty for an extra 70 bucks through Allstate or w.e the company is called now during checkout. small price to pay for peace of mind.


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Sep 10, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> True!
> 
> Copper is way expensive ATM.


Yeah, really. I've heard of houses that were advertised for sale in the paper having all of their copper piping ripped out and carted off by thieves with the water left running all over the place inside. They even sometimes steal it from construction sites if its left there accessible at the work site unguarded.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 10, 2021)

Fake News?


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 10, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> wow really?
> 1 year is an aweful warranty


It's been like that since at least PS3 days. Apple pulls the same thing with their products so I guess Sony thinks it's fine. You should still be covered by your local consumer laws once the 12 months are over.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 10, 2021)

*Gold plating *is the phenomenon of working on a project or task past the point of diminishing returns.






						Gold plating (project management) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




First-generation PS consoles.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 10, 2021)

Tardian said:


> I think that this thread formerly entitled: "Sony and Playstation 5 have just lost all my respect and desire to want one. Terrible move Sony..." should be deleted.
> As I stated above "The premise for the article is now in ruins."
> 
> Now the TPU legal team needs to consider:
> ...


I think you are way, way, way underestimating the threshold needed for something to be defamatory. For example, does the thread starter here have any kind of standing or authority that can make them meaningfully affect Sony's reputation? I sincerely doubt that. I see where my confusion stems from though: you're referring to a forum thread as an "article", which ... it isn't. A forum post is a forum post, and a forum post is not an article. Regardless fo this though, "someone on a forum said that Sony made a bad heatsink" is not something that would _ever_ get anyone convicted for defamation. Also, you know that forums and online platforms can't be held responsible for content posted by their users, right (at least in the US)? Even in countries with ridiculously biased (towards those in power) defamation laws like the UK, many commonwealth countries, or Sweden I sincerely doubt that this would ever even be considered by a court. Most likely the person/party bringing the suit would be chided (or even sanctioned) for wasting the court's time.

As for the gaming/console market being regulated: regulations to control scalping and predatory pricing would be a pretty good idea IMO, yes. It would of course be a complicated endeavor, but far better than our current situation, especially as it would allow for legal action against scalpers. Most countries have laws regulating black market ticket sales, for example, so I don't see an issue with similar laws being used to regulate other hard-to-come-by products. Remember, regulations come in many, many, many different forms.


mtcn77 said:


> I have just one comment with your stupid remark: if you are going to take sides, don't try to be the judge.


I'm not judging, I'm asking you to back up your statements as they run contrary to my own experiences. Also, can you at least try to keep a civil tone? 


mtcn77 said:


> Of course, I have something to back that up. Go to his gpuboost reviews and how he omits those "huge" spikes being verbally mentioned in the article.
> He is no better at shilling than you are.


So, you're not willing to actually link to your source? That's a bit ... weird. Though after googling a bit I can make a guess at why: your quote is _extremely_ selective, to such a degree that I can't think of any reason for omitting the source beyond actively trying to mislead people. Either that or you didn't actually read what you're quoting. After all, the sentences following the one you quoted are as follows (my emphasis):


> The GTX 1060 FE is able to maintain temperatures around 67C to 72C. *There are a few sudden spikes that plunge clock-rate to a couple hundred MHz, which manifest as sudden frame drops. These last a fraction of a second and are noticeable, but aren't frequent enough to get mad about. The GTX 1080 had bigger issues with this when running OC endurance tests on the FE card.*


That's pretty clear, no? The video review contains the same exact wording when discussing this. In the overall context of a GPU review, this seems like a reasonable handling of something they didn't see as significant enough to be an actual problem. Is this shilling? Obviously not. They're making a judgement on whether or not this is an issue. You're entirely welcome to disagree with that - people perceive things differently. That doesn't make GN a shill or you somehow more 'right', it just means you have differing opinions.

Also, what am I shilling? For who? How?


mtcn77 said:


> PS: if you are looking for journalism, you might want to stick around myself as I, too, was a journalist until someone didn't want to upset relations to announce the stock crash of 2018 two years prior...


... uh ... okay? IDGAF about stock markets tbh (beyond a general belief that they are massively overvalued in society and ought to be ignored far more), nor do I put much weight into vaguely worded conspiratorical language, so ... meh. If you've got damning evidence showing someone doing something that sinister, publish it? The internet is open after all. Please don't drag me into your drama.


Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> wow really?
> 1 year is an aweful warranty


1-year warranties are entirely normal on mass-market consumer electronics overall. Literally every smartphone in the world has a one-year warranty, though some allow you to buy extensions. Laptops rarely come with anything more. It's the industry norm, which sucks, but it is what it is. As such, warranty length is no indication whatsoever of quality for these things. (This is also why some countries mandate longer warranty coverage for production faults etc.)


----------



## Rahnak (Sep 10, 2021)

@lynx29 Is your opinion still the same after that showcase event yesterday?

I was beginning to think I could skip this Playstation gen. But then Insomniac throws Venom in the mix. And Wolverine. I can't resist.  And Ragnarok. Aww, man. I was never gonna skip it, just deluding myself.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 10, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I'm not judging, I'm asking you to back up your statements as they run contrary to my own experiences. Also, can you at least try to keep a civil tone?


I was very civil until you engaged your search and rescue mode.
Good to see you are off track and retreated from your previous position which was heavily defamatory towards me without even knowing the first thing about journalism.



Valantar said:


> So, you're not willing to actually link to your source? That's a bit ... weird.


Quit fud. I gave a direct citation which are a dime in a dozen _unless you are looking the other way._



Valantar said:


> They're making a judgement on whether or not this is an issue.


See, that is why there is a discussion. Unlike your noble ideas, everything he publishes is repeated verbatim and not his opinion. He is a mouthpiece and that is what you have to get used to in comparison to editorials - which is not what he publishes since it has to be approved first.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 10, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I was very civil until you engaged your search and rescue mode.
> Good to see you are off track and retreated from your previous position which was heavily defamatory towards me without even knowing the first thing about journalism.
> 
> 
> ...



You're not making the slightest bit of sense. He literally quoted how you shopped selectively to support your failure of an argument. You don't need to know journalism for that, just read.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 10, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> You're not making the slightest bit of sense. He literally quoted how you shopped selectively to support your failure of an argument. You don't need to know journalism for that, just read.


Well, ignore as you want. I won't spill the beans for you since I'm done arguing trolls for not seeing through the same tinted glasses.
I said he does it in every review where his master instructs him to treat with kid gloves. I'm sure you haven't also heard journalistic practices and favouritism, so no need to fall on deaf ears.
I just scrolled the first article where he does it and you're already in denial mode.


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 10, 2021)

Rahnak said:


> @lynx29 Is your opinion still the same after that showcase event yesterday?
> 
> I was beginning to think I could skip this Playstation gen. But then Insomniac throws Venom in the mix. And Wolverine. I can't resist.  And Ragnarok. Aww, man. I was never gonna skip it, just deluding myself.


I think most of it is coming in March/Spring 2022 right? By then we'll probably have another revision to fuss over.

Edit.
Spidey won't come until 2023 and Logan doesn't even have a release window set.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 10, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Well, ignore as you want. I won't spill the beans for you since I'm done arguing trolls for not seeing through the same tinted glasses.
> I said he does it in every review where his master instructs him to treat with kid gloves. I'm sure you haven't also heard journalistic practices and favouritism, so no need to fall on deaf ears.
> I just scrolled the first article where he does it and you're already in denial mode.



You havent got any beans to spill, but you think you do. No FOMO here, no worries...


----------



## Tardian (Sep 10, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I think you are way, way, way underestimating the threshold needed for something to be defamatory. For example, does the thread starter here have any kind of standing or authority that can make them meaningfully affect Sony's reputation? I sincerely doubt that. I see where my confusion stems from though: you're referring to a forum thread as an "article", which ... it isn't. A forum post is a forum post, and a forum post is not an article. Regardless fo this though, "someone on a forum said that Sony made a bad heatsink" is not something that would _ever_ get anyone convicted for defamation. Also, you know that forums and online platforms can't be held responsible for content posted by their users, right (at least in the US)? Even in countries with ridiculously biased (towards those in power) defamation laws like the UK, many commonwealth countries, or Sweden I sincerely doubt that this would ever even be considered by a court. Most likely the person/party bringing the suit would be chided (or even sanctioned) for wasting the court's time.
> 
> As for the gaming/console market being regulated: regulations to control scalping and predatory pricing would be a pretty good idea IMO, yes. It would of course be a complicated endeavor, but far better than our current situation, especially as it would allow for legal action against scalpers. Most countries have laws regulating black market ticket sales, for example, so I don't see an issue with similar laws being used to regulate other hard-to-come-by products. Remember, regulations come in many, many, many different forms.
> 
> ...





> *Article* /ˈɑːtɪk(ə)l/ a piece of writing included with others in a newspaper, magazine, or other publication.


The definition seems very broad.


> Thread /θrɛd/ (in online communication) a sequence of _linked_ posts or messages.


and yet many of the posts are TC'd and are not linked?


----------



## Rahnak (Sep 10, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> I think most of it is coming in March/Spring 2022 right? By then we'll probably have another revision to fuss over.
> 
> Edit.
> Spidey won't come until 2023 and Logan doesn't even have a release window set.


He said he wasn't going to get it anymore, I was curious if yesterday had changed his mind at all. As far as revisions go, the PS4 Slim came out a bit before the 3rd anniversary, so late 2023 is very likely (there are some rumors about a pro version by late 2023/24). I'll be aiming for that, as I'm not a huge fan of the current external design. Don't really care about the internals as much, I'm sure it works just fine.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 10, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> You havent got any beans to spill, but you think you do.


There is even a published guideline on how to do it. You aren't too credible upon the weight of the evidence sourced by industry revelations.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 10, 2021)

Rahnak said:


> @lynx29 Is your opinion still the same after that showcase event yesterday?
> 
> I was beginning to think I could skip this Playstation gen. But then Insomniac throws Venom in the mix. And Wolverine. I can't resist.  And Ragnarok. Aww, man. I was never gonna skip it, just deluding myself.



i'm not a fan of superhero stuff in general sense, but i need to see more first party stuff.  ragnarok will be good that was a given before ps5 even came out though. i need to see what new first party will be exclusive to ps5... horizon sequel and ragnarok are my only two must plays at the moment though. as far as racing goes i'd rather play a dirt rally game or forza.  gran turismo 7 looks a little weak and dated honestly.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 11, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> wow really?
> 1 year is an aweful warranty


Seriously? Warranty's were once 90 days. 1 year is a vast improvement.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Seriously? Warranty's were once 90 days. 1 year is a vast improvement.




_Microsoft Complete covers your Xbox for *“up to 3 years”* against both defects and accidental damage. They say “up to 3 years” because, if you read the fine print, their coverage is limited to 2 claims. With Microsoft Complete after two claims, no matter their size or cost, your warranty is over._

I like the way M$ does it more to be honest.  1 year is a bit crappy in comparison


----------



## Calmmo (Sep 11, 2021)

I don't mind the warranty, assuming the soldered storage doesn't fail..  

I'm tempted to try the old MP600 1tb (4900read) once firmware allows it, and i doubt it will prove insufficient. Maybe on some late gen releases 6-7 years from now that push the system to its limits, but in this.. extended cross gen joke period especially it should be more than fine.

Anyway, call me crazy but i like that mine has a big fat heatsink, just means i gotta find an aftermarket fan with better SP right?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 11, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I was very civil until you engaged your search and rescue mode.


Really? All I saw was a bunch of vague conspiratorial statements with nothing to back them up. Hardly civil, it just wasn't directed at me until I called you out.


mtcn77 said:


> Good to see you are off track and retreated from your previous position which was heavily defamatory towards me without even knowing the first thing about journalism.


Oh man, this made me laugh. Defamatory? Don't be ridiculous. If it is, take me to court. Or at the very least report my post to forum admins. I asked you to back up your claims. You provided a quote with no sourcing, which turned out to be extremely selective to such a degree that the only reasonable conclusion is that you were actively trying to mislead people.


mtcn77 said:


> Quit fud. I gave a direct citation which are a dime in a dozen _unless you are looking the other way._


"A dime a dozen" means something is cheap, of little value, common to the point of being entirely unremarkable. I'm guessing that isn't what you wanted to say about your own argument? Either way, your quote was highly selective and thus misleading, which was easily demonstrated by tracking down the source of the quote and showing its context. 


mtcn77 said:


> See, that is why there is a discussion. Unlike your noble ideas, everything he publishes is repeated verbatim and not his opinion.


What? Of course it's his (or GN's) opinion. What else would it be? Are you seriously claiming that some third party writes their scripts for them? Again: please stop posting vague conspiratorial nonsense unless you have some actual proof to back that up.


mtcn77 said:


> He is a mouthpiece and that is what you have to get used to in comparison to editorials - which is not what he publishes since it has to be approved first.


Mouthpiece for whom? Approved by whom? Do you have even a shred of evidence to back that up?


mtcn77 said:


> Well, ignore as you want. I won't spill the beans for you since I'm done arguing trolls for not seeing through the same tinted glasses.


Ah, the classic "no, I won't present any proof for my claims, you doubt me and are thus trolls and not worthy of my time" line. So, if people believed you you wouldn't need to provide proof, and if we don't then you can't be bothered to argue your points or provide it. So... I'm taking a wild guess here, but the logical answer seems to be that you have no proof, seeing how you're creating conditions where no matter what you won't have to provide it.


mtcn77 said:


> I said he does it in every review where his master instructs him to treat with kid gloves. I'm sure you haven't also heard journalistic practices and favouritism, so no need to fall on deaf ears.
> I just scrolled the first article where he does it and you're already in denial mode.


Your selectively quoted article didn't show anything - they did discuss the frametime drops in the next sentences, that you conveniently omitted from your quote. You're welcome to disagree with their judgement there, but claiming they didn't mention the drops is a plain-faced lie. So, again, unless you can actually back up your statements with something substantive, please stop digging this hole for yourself.

Given the target of your wrath I'm guessing the "master" you speak of is Nvidia, which... not only is it absurd to claim GN is on the take from them (considering their GPP coverage, their self-sourcing of review cards to avoid consequences from pissing off Nvidia (and others)), but you called me a shill as well (presumably also for them), which... man, have you looked at my system specs? Or even paid any attention to the dozens of discussions we've had here? I have literally never bought or owned an Nvidia GPU. Don't be ridiculous.


Tardian said:


> The definition seems very broad.
> 
> and yet many of the posts are TC'd and are not linked?


TC'd? You're going to have to spell that out for me. As for linked: literally every post in a forum thread is linked to the thread and the OP. That's what makes them into a thread.

As for that definition, it seems you're interpreting "publication" far too broadly. 'Publication' implies some form of organization or editorial control, at least in the legal sense. TPU is a publication, TPU's forums are a semi-public (privately controlled, but open to anyone who hasn't been banned, and partially community moderated) discussion board and not under any editorial control. Nobody controls what is posted here, and what is posted here is generally not TPU's responsibility.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> i'm not a fan of superhero stuff in general sense, but i need to see more first party stuff.  ragnarok will be good that was a given before ps5 even came out though. i need to see what new first party will be exclusive to ps5... horizon sequel and ragnarok are my only two must plays at the moment though. as far as racing goes i'd rather play a dirt rally game or forza.  *gran turismo 7 looks a little weak and dated honestly*.


I resemble that remark. 

_A little weak_: I have been stronger and had more authority. That is about to change for the better.
_Dated_: Yes, unlike some I've been on plenty and then married one of them.
_Honestly_: The unvarnished truth (with the occasional error [cosmic ray]).

GT7 4/3/22 I can't wait. GT Sports will get its first workout on my new PS5 when it arrives in the very near future.



Valantar said:


> Really? All I saw was a bunch of vague conspiratorial statements with nothing to back them up. Hardly civil, it just wasn't directed at me until I called you out.
> 
> Oh man, this made me laugh. Defamatory? Don't be ridiculous. If it is, take me to court. Or at the very least report my post to forum admins. I asked you to back up your claims. You provided a quote with no sourcing, which turned out to be extremely selective to such a degree that the only reasonable conclusion is that you were actively trying to mislead people.
> 
> ...


I doubt if a five-star poster could tell you anything? Thread Crap = TC, but you knew that? 


> Publication /ˌpʌblɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/: the action of making something generally known.


I don't think that TPU is a secret squirrel site? TPU rules: how is that relevant? BTW, TPU RULES!


> every post in a forum thread is linked to the thread


Except the many that aren't  ... as in TC'ing. Your above post, how is that linked to the topic of the 6nm PS5 and its alleged tested cooling performance.

The initial post in a thread isn't that an _article_?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 11, 2021)

This is getting _very_ OT, so I'm putting this in a spoiler tag so as not to bog down the thread entirely.


Spoiler






Tardian said:


> I doubt if a five-star poster could tell you anything? Thread Crap = TC, but you knew that?


Not a term I'm familiar with, no 


Tardian said:


> I don't think that TPU is a secret squirrel site? TPU rules: how is that relevant? BTW, TPU RULES!


You're conflating different meanings of 'publication' here. The definition you're using here is in the meaning of something _being or having been published_. The meaning that your definition of article pointed to is separate and different from this; the meaning that makes it roughly equivalent to the two other examples mentioned, newspaper or magazine. I.e. the output of some sort of organization with some form of editorial control over the things published there. It could be a zine, a TV news broadcast, an online news site or magazine, etc. A forum is _run_ by some form of organization (not necessarily of course - anyone can set up their own forum that they control individually, but once you give it a name and recruit moderators to help you that's an organization in a very broad sense), but there is zero editorial control. Sure, the forums have rules, but those rules are not editorial rules, but rules of conduct within what is mainly a semi-public social space. Of course, nobody is stopping anyone from posting an article in its entirety as a forum post, but at least I've never seen that (beyond some community review sites that can border on a quasi-article form).

Of course this gets us solidly into extremely complex discussions of editorial and authorial control and how this affects things along the lines of "are blogs publications" or "are blog posts articles", which mainly highlights that all such categorizations are a) simplifications, b) generalizations, and c) never entirely accurate in all cases. It is entirely impossible to create perfect definitions and delineations of phenomena such as these. That does not make those categorizations invalid or not useful though - one simply has to accept that place, context and content matters, and judge accordingly. What defines an article as opposed to a forum post is determined by not only where it was published, but the author's relation to that venue, the author's relation to their audience (is it as an author/editor/journalist/commentator, or as an ordinary member of a community?), and applicable context and norms both in society at large as well as specifically for that venue. For example, if an article is posted somewhere with a comments seciton it's entirely reasonable for the author to never take part in the discussion below (though many still do), while it would be borderline absurd for someone to post a thread to a forum and then never take part in the discussion. It happens, but it's extremely rare, and not generally expected. And there are of course lots of weird borderline cases, like when TPU uses their forums as comments sections for their news posts, in which the normal "thread starter is a part of the discussion" norms do not necessarily apply to the same degree (though many on the editorial team of TPU are great at responding to feedback and questions).

Getting back to the point: for something to be a 'publication' in the meaning that what they publish is 'articles', there needs to be some form of organizational structure and editorial policy in place. There will always be exceptions and weird offshoots that don't quite fit this categorizations, but forums very clearly do not fit, and are thus not publications in this way. Social media are not publications either, nor is a town hall meeting even if everyone there can make a statement. If that town hall meeting is livestreamed on Facebook or Twitch that still isn't a publication, but if it's broadcast live on TV or through the web site of a newspaper or other publication, it falls under their editorial purview (though again, responsibility for the contents of live transmission of public debates is not the same as for content created by the editorial team).

Something being a 'publication' in the meaning "something that has been published" does not make that thing an article, as literally anything that can convey information can be "published". Is a post-it note stuck to a lamppost on the town square an article? No, but it is technically a publication in that meaning.


Tardian said:


> Except the many that aren't ... as in TC'ing. Your above post, how is that linked to the topic of the 6nm PS5 and its alleged tested cooling performance.


Again, you're misunderstanding. Every post in a thread is linked to the thread. Not thematically linked or by their content, but by the HTML (or similar) infrastructure of the forum. Of course this doesn't technically require a forum, and you could achieve the same with just plain old hyperlinks. But the base concept of a BBS, which is where current forums originated, is a codified structure for posting discussions where each post is linked to previous posts and/or the original post for that thread.


Tardian said:


> The initial post in a thread isn't that an _article_?


No. It is a forum post. The same text could obviously be an article, but then it would need to be posted somewhere with some form of editorial control (even if only the author's), and not on a semi-public forum.


----------



## puma99dk| (Sep 11, 2021)

I really hope the normal PS5 Disk version will still be around when I can finally be able to buy one and it's not like a first gen unicorn.


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 12, 2021)

GN and DF doing a colab


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 12, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> GN and DF doing a colab


I have to agree with many of GNs points.

BTW, this is happening;


			https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChIs72whgZI9w6d6FhwGGHA/community?lb=UgxCRgt-KylkJOmRv8F4AaABCQ


----------



## Tardian (Sep 12, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> GN and DF doing a colab


27 minutes and more and yet no PS5 test. Running interference?


----------



## Palindrome (Sep 12, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> GN and DF doing a colab


saw their Hardware News video where they mentioned they were working on this. Haven't watched it yet but it should be a good one


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> So, again, unless you can actually back up your statements with something substantive, please stop digging this hole for yourself.


Again, the burden of proof that you called me out on, being;


Valantar said:


> I'm not judging, I'm asking you to back up your statements as they run contrary to *my own experiences*.


"Out of line" is on you.

What you are claiming is *utter nonsense*. You can't have experience by claiming to never have owned a product, as you say here;


Valantar said:


> I have literally never bought or owned an Nvidia GPU. Don't be ridiculous.


Yet, you claim what GN reports is true. It does not follow any logical sequence for you to make these assumptions when you have no experience and the party you are talking to(me) was a journalist _who can make these calls_ and you need to heed what comes out from your troll mouth.

I don't have to conform to your ignorant standards as, even if, you 'had' the previously mentioned gpus - it would be the blind leading the deaf... You must have mistaken yourself for someone who makes the news - you cannot shift the goalpost by asking further evidence...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 12, 2021)

Tardian said:


> 27 minutes and more and yet no PS5 test. Running interference?


I think he was setting expectations and helping people understand the reality of science based testing. IR camera's are great for visualizing heat and heat patterns, which can be useful within the context of understand a heatpump system. However, IR cameras do little for providing specific data & details needed for reaching conclusions that have merit..


----------



## Valantar (Sep 12, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Again, the burden of proof that you called me out on, being;
> 
> "Out of line" is on you.


Sorry, what? You're the one making new claims here - that GN is biased, untrustworthy, or a shill for some nebulous and mysterious "master" - so the burden of proof is on you. You did _try_ to show some proof for this, but this "proof" was provided without sourcing and when the source was scrutinized turned out to be a highly selective quote with significant relevant context removed, rendering it invalid.


mtcn77 said:


> What you are claiming is *utter nonsense*. You can't have experience by claiming to never have owned a product, as you say here;


I never claimed to have experience with Nvidia GPUs, I claimed to have experience with the quality of GN's coverage.


mtcn77 said:


> Yet, you claim what GN reports is true. It does not follow any logical sequence for you to make these assumptions when you have no experience and the party you are talking to(me) was a journalist _who can make these calls_ and you need to heed what comes out from your troll mouth.


I neither know nor care if you are a journalist. You are on these forums as a user, same as me, and unless you're able to provide some sort of backing for your statements, I (or anyone else) have no reason to take them as anything more authoritative than random statements by some random forum user.

And I never commented on the truth (or lack thereof) in this specific case of GN's reporting (clock/frametime spikes with GPU boost), I simply looked at the source and found that they did indeed discuss what you claimed that they omitted. I explicitly said that I have no grounds on which to make a judgement towards the truth of this, but I trust the quality of GN's reporting from previous experience, and don't see that you are providing anything significant to change that.


mtcn77 said:


> I don't have to conform to your ignorant standards as, even if, you 'had' the previously mentioned gpus - it would be the blind leading the deaf... You must have mistaken yourself for someone who makes the news - you cannot shift the goalpost by asking further evidence...


Shifting goalposts? _Further_ evidence? (That would require you to have provided any evidence at all, which you haven't.) I've asked you to back up your claims, seeing how you are making new claims that break from general norms and perceptions. You have failed to do so, providing one highly selective quote that collapsed under scrutiny, and then shifted to making some claim to authority by saying you are a journalist (where? covering what? and how is this relevant?), implicitly saying that I (and others here) should take your word as truth simply because you say so. On top of that, isntead of providing sources or evidence, you resort to insults, personal attacks and foul language. Yet you call me "out of line"? Don't make me laugh.



Tardian said:


> 27 minutes and more and yet no PS5 test. Running interference?


Uh... did you watch the beginning of the video? They go into quite some detail as to what this video is. It is a methodology piece on how IR photography is a poor and potentially misleading way of reporting component thermals. They literally didn't have the new PS5 at the time of filming (again, stated in the video), so what could they have tested? They are educating viewers + preparing the ground for their future PS5 thermals video, attempting to make their viewers understand better how the IR thermals relate to whatever thermal results they find by better methods of measurement.


lexluthermiester said:


> I think he was setting expectations and helping people understand the reality of science based testing. IR camera's are great for visualizing heat and heat patterns, which can be useful within the context of understand a heatpump system. However, IR cameras do little for providing specific data & details needed for reaching conclusions that have merit..


Exactly. They're attempting to educate viewers and make them understand why IR photography is a poor way of measuring component thermals, and why this thus makes the original data here untrustworthy - while simultaneously underscoring that this in no way legitimizes the hate directed towards Austin Evans for this video.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Sorry, what?


You were making *anectodal references* of a subject you* know nothing about*. I think, this ends here.
You're not a newscast director, you cannot 'weight evidence' when you are referring to anectodal ones which, upon further uncovering, you have not provided credence for. Notice, all of this came out of you - not me - so you aren't the slightest in the mindframe of the discussion you are trying to stir up.

I said I don't discuss with trolls. I stand by it. When you know who to discuss, maybe you will get responses without devolving to ad hominem.



Valantar said:


> this "proof" was provided without sourcing


You keep repeating this like it is some sort of mystery when the quote is present and you are somehow unable to source this like your personal perspective has anything to do with it. If you cannot google it, find someone who can...

I think I have said, "don't move the goalposts": TL;DR; it means factual evidence don't need your explaining and your perception of them to be real.
It is on the net, you are just blind and on coolaid. I don't know when you dropped out of the trends, but you cannot hold me liable to inform you on what is present.



Valantar said:


> I explicitly said that I have no grounds on which to make a judgement towards the truth of this


That is the punchline you somehow need to repeat to yourself until it sits well with you, but not to me, of course... I'm done with your tail chasing.


----------



## Morgoth (Sep 12, 2021)

i wonder why they needed to change that stamped sheet metal, making a hole new press die is quite a cotly endouver


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 12, 2021)

Morgoth said:


> i wonder why they needed to change that stamped sheet metal, making a hole new press die is quite a cotly endouver


That's quite straightforward.
They were trying to improve the product, likely to improve its profitability or viability as a product while using the learned experience of millions of user's for example changing the fan design to give a better audio and cooling profile.

As for the cost of making the heatsink, they'll make millions, it'll be fine.

I have seen a few attempts to assess the change, so far it's not the case that it's considerably worse so i appreciate the OP changing the title to a less confrontational one.

Still isn't absolutely answered beyond doubt though.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I have to agree with many of GNs points.
> 
> BTW, this is happening;
> 
> ...




nom nom!


----------



## Valantar (Sep 12, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You were making *anectodal references* of a subject you* know nothing about*. I think, this ends here.
> You're not a newscast director, you cannot 'weight evidence' when you are referring to anectodal ones which, upon further uncovering, you have not provided credence for. Notice, all of this came out of you - not me - so you aren't the slightest in the mindframe of the discussion you are trying to stir up.
> 
> I said I don't discuss with trolls. I stand by it. When you know who to discuss, maybe you will get responses without devolving to ad hominem.
> ...


... sigh. Have I claimed to be a "newscast director" or anything similar? Have I claimed anything more than having a general impression of GN being trustworthy? No. You, on the other hand, have made new claims, claims of them _not_ being trustworthy, and when asked to back them up came up with one context-less, source-less quote that upon even minor scrutiny turned out to not be demonstrative of what you said at all. Here's a tip: if you refuse to link to your sources, and people then find those sources and look them up and find they say something different than what you claim, it's pretty obvious that you're trying to hide your sources so that you can twist things and misrepresent facts.

You claimed that GN "omits those "huge" spikes being verbally mentioned in the article" - yet looking at the article (and the accompanying video), those spikes are explicitly discussed t_wo sentences after the part you quoted_. It's right there, staring you in the face. You're entirely welcome to disagree with how they discussed it or their conclusions, but claiming they didn't is an outright lie.

Oh, and just to reiterate: the reason I keep repeating that you posted your (misleadingly selective) quote without sourcing, is that doing so is actively hindering readers from scrutinizing your claims. When such scrutiny then makes it clear that what you said is just not true, that lack of sourcing changes from "lazy" or "a tad disrespectful of your readers" to "actively misleading" and "disingenuous". And in case you didn't notice, I did google it, found the exact article you quoted from, and showed how your quote was misleadingly selective and your claims about it were wrong. Which IIRC is when the personal attacks started flying. Hm. Almost as if you didn't want your claims checked?

And I haven't moved any goalposts - they have always stood firmly planted at "if you make new claims, provide new evidence backing them up, and allow others to scrutinize said evidence". You have consistently failed to meet this bar, and instead resorted to personal attacks when challenged. This isn't moving the goalposts, it's maintaining a minimum standard of accountability.

I'm frankly sad to see you go, as I would _love_ to see any actual evidence for GN being biased. If that were true, I would need to adjust my impression of them, but that would require some form of evidence that stands up to even a modest amount of scrutiny. So far all I've seen from you is "they are shills and so are you" and "you can't question my word because I'm a journalist and you aren't". Neither of that is evidence, neither of that is even an _argument_, and if that's the level your journalism was at ... oh dear.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> ... sigh. Have I claimed to be a "newscast director" or anything similar? Have I claimed anything more than having a general impression of GN being trustworthy? No. You, on the other hand, have made new claims, claims of them _not_ being trustworthy, and when asked to back them up came up with one context-less, source-less quote that upon even minor scrutiny turned out to not be demonstrative of what you said at all. Here's a tip: if you refuse to link to your sources, and people then find those sources and look them up and find they say something different than what you claim, it's pretty obvious that you're trying to hide your sources so that you can twist things and misrepresent facts.
> 
> You claimed that GN "omits those "huge" spikes being verbally mentioned in the article" - yet looking at the article (and the accompanying video), those spikes are explicitly discussed t_wo sentences after the part you quoted_. It's right there, staring you in the face. You're entirely welcome to disagree with how they discussed it or their conclusions, but claiming they didn't is an outright lie.
> 
> ...



Don't feed the looney


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Almost as if you didn't want your claims checked?


No, you actually didn't check them and review you opinion even with the data presented on how the fraud is done. I gave '1' example. You don't need me to do the deed and look for the rest.

This is no place for a flood which I'm not doing. If you had better sense, you wouldn't need me to point at the issue in the first place and to quote what you don't want to accept of them, "They do it everywhere on every review". So, I don't need to list a specific one since it is so ubiquitous and even with the internet under your fingers, you choose to be defensive which is why no further reasoning necessarily spent on you.



Valantar said:


> Have I claimed anything more than having a general impression of GN being trustworthy? No.


That is when your defamation started. Quit arguing ad nauseum, imo. You aren't fooling anyone.
Notice I was very specific on who I claimed this for. It was only your perspective that you took it personal which is beyond me why you are in such vulnerable defense.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 12, 2021)

When i was a child of 10 or 11 there was an elderly dishevelled gentleman that yelled at the cars driving by. Day after day he stood in the same spot. Screaming incoherently at traffic.

Sometimes, its just best to keep your distance and walk away.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

@Valantar
PS: it is more as if you are 'upset' that _I did _what you told me when you wanted the evidence, but you weren't ready to accept it? Don't judge people with your perspective because facts are not opinions and internet anonymity does not give you the right to weigh in on a subject about experience.

Again, if you scroll my posts I specifically said "Sony wouldn't do such a thing" and some trolls on the GN bandwagon tried to push their biased view onto the mainstream *which turned out to be incorrect afterall*.

I'm not at all surprised how they are trying to backtrack while saving face... What a bunch of trolls carrying the banner of cancel culture. They "would" be ashamed of themselves by now if they had any decency.


----------



## Tardian (Sep 12, 2021)

I recommend that senior TPU personnel _review_ the toxicity of the above and below thread posts. 

Whilst a case can be made that it is a fine example of "freedom of speech" it could also be an example of "How not to do it in the future". 

I still recommend the thread be deleted. Is this_ really_ the TPU brand? When I say 'deleted' it could be 'reshelved' in part of TPU that is rarely accessed, as in:



> “But the plans were on display…”
> “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
> “That’s the display department.”
> “With a flashlight.”
> ...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 12, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Shifting goalposts? _Further_ evidence?


Quit arguing with that user. He's just winding you up for reaction. They don't care about arriving at meritful conclusions or logical fact-finding. They argue for ego...



Valantar said:


> They're attempting to educate viewers and make them understand why IR photography is a poor way of measuring component thermals, and why this thus makes the original data here untrustworthy


That's the thing, it's not that IR data is untrustworthy, its that it is only useful in a certain set of circumstances and within particular context.


Valantar said:


> while simultaneously underscoring that this in no way legitimizes the hate directed towards Austin Evans for this video.


Agreed. Austin was very clearly wrong in several ways, but those mistakes were not out of malice. They are sincere and genuine concerns for the cooling principles employed by the engineering of the heatpump action of the new design. The mistakes were in the measurements and collection of data and the conclusions. He was deliberately being an alarmist, but his failure was not doing due-diligence testing. While the hate he's getting is undeserved, no one can argue with any level of credibility that he didn't make a few mistakes.



mtcn77 said:


> Notice I was very specific on who I claimed this for. It was only your perspective that you took it personal which is beyond me why you are in such vulnerable defense.


Except that Valatar didn't make it personal, you did. You need to take an exit here...


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Except that Valatar didn't make it personal, you did.


I won't argue further.
Facts are,

Trolls spearheaded by 'GN' tried to paint a skewed picture on a product not on GN's shortlist of treatment with kid gloves.
I was correct in calling that is BS. Even now you cannot say GN was right.
Yet, bias blinds you from the truth that they are on the koolaid and I'm just getting blame for your fall. Sorry that it does not make sense.
GN reported a false news article which "they" and "their trolls" should have accepted total responsibility for, and already made exits from previous their previous stance,
And yet, their trolls cannot accept their masters could be in any wrongdoing which forms the basis of their bias as "PS5 is not hotter" and trolls need to vent steam on some other venue.
I hope this 'internet hate' gets the flag it needs and GN zealots fall for the the frame they tried to cast for the normal mainstream people that didn't give in to their petulence.
PS: I think trolls really think they can win in their masters' lost cause. Pretty pathetic!



lexluthermiester said:


> You need to take an exit here...


Trolls do need to take the exit, those that argued against facts during all this time. Can't spin the facts on a matter of redacted article! 

It is disgusting how awful people get with their preferential treatment and calling them out brings the worst in them. 

Anybody who tries to argue with me is pretty nonsensical, as I don't write without a factual basis and I can always present more facts that you cannot silence.


----------



## Blue4130 (Sep 12, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I can always present more facts that you cannot silence.


That is all everyone is asking for. But you continue to not present what you say that you can...


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

Blue4130 said:


> That is all everyone is asking for. But you continue to not present what you say that you can...


I don't want to flood. I thought it would be simpler if I presented people with evidence, but it strayed from the thread since people don't even accept the conclusion for this thread, let alone the hate squad who comes up with such hate speech.
Therefore I layed it even simpler: you can read the OP and how it was debunked to see the truth.

I just said it in simple terms - GN is not the mainstream. Don't treat them preferentially.

I want to sympathise with you good people with high opinion with them. It is just we are at a crossroads - you treat GN crap as bible and not even PS5 not turning up as hot as they previously claimed can deter you from your mental slumber. You see through their eyes - which I don't. I don't think it needs more moderation. I like it when they get called out for once for all the dealings they try to sway the public opinion on.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 12, 2021)

Blue4130 said:


> That is all everyone is asking for. But you continue to not present what you say that you can...


Not to mention that they continue with more personal jabs and insults. As I stated earlier, arguing ego not merit.



mtcn77 said:


> It is disgusting how awful people get with their preferential treatment and calling them out brings the worst in them.


Irony.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 12, 2021)

PS5 is not hotter and GN reported bull crap. I will say it and no amount of zealotry can hide the fact that they just push cancel culture and hate speech on anything not on their NDA list. They push libel, okay?



lexluthermiester said:


> Not to mention that they continue with more personal jabs and insults.


Which is what we should be on the same page with each other, me thinks.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 13, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Which is what we should be on the same page with each other, me thinks.


Except I only dish out the jabs when people throw insults my way, as a general rule. That didn't happen here. You started with the insults and then laid more on thick when other users pointed out the flaws in your arguments and logic.

The fact is, GN pointed out the very serious flaws in the methodology of not just Austin Evans but Intel and everyone else who use IR camera's improperly and wildly out of context. You seem to be defending those flawed methodologies and making it personal with all the insults. You're not arguing merits because your conclusions have no merit. You're arguing ego and personal pride, little more.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 13, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> The fact is, GN pointed out the very serious flaws in the methodology of not just Austin Evans but Intel and everyone else who use IR camera's improperly and wildly out of context. You seem to be defending those flawed methodologies and making it personal with all the insults.


See, you really devolved what started as a factual statement into the same personal scapegoating arguments.
What you are seeing as insults are facts that are challenging to your perception. GN is trying to backtrack from initial statement in grace. They initially hopped on the bandwagon and no amount of excuses can shift their responsibility.

Do I need to cite which unfounded defamatory claim they streamed this time? - I think I don't. They just search for a fall guy. That is not me, since I have nothing to do with their doing.

It is really amusing how this sums up their and all their trolls' viewpoint: when contradicted by evidence, everyone else is to blame, except for them... how stereotypical of a biased media source.

When IR should in fact be the most standardised benchmark, they argue the opposite like they have somehow put blackbody radiation on recess... I don't think people are dumber for not wearing their own blinders.


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