# Workers Riot at Foxconn Chengdu iPhone/iPad Plant



## btarunr (Jun 7, 2012)

If televised visits by Apple's top-brass to Foxconn's manufacturing facilities, and commitments to improve working conditions were mere PR exercises meant to cover up the issue of dismal working conditions, they failed. About 1,000 workers at Foxconn's manufacturing facility at Chengdu rioted on a large scale, which took the police several hours to subdue. According to media reports, the riot started when the facility guards were trying to stop a thief, while other workers who held grudges against the guards prevented them from catching the thief. Soon, the situation went out of control, as 1,000 workers started a riot. The workers were seen chucking pots, pans, garbage, and even fireworks from their dormitory windows. Public facilities sustained damage, the police made several arrests. The episode reveals that worker-management relations, at least at the Chengdu plant, which manufactures a massive amount of iPhone and iPad products for Apple, are at a breaking point. 





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## remixedcat (Jun 7, 2012)

thought they fixed that....


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## DannibusX (Jun 7, 2012)

Ah, yes.  Nothing to see here, move along people.


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## Mussels (Jun 7, 2012)

remixedcat said:


> thought they fixed that....



management probably thought their employess 'just worked'


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## SnoopKatt (Jun 7, 2012)

Things like this honestly need more light brought onto them. Chinese factory conditions will never improve unless enough people know about them, and if enough people are willing to disapprove of a product until the workers are treated better.


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## DOM (Jun 7, 2012)

I see Apple using this to jack up there prices even more


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## H82LUZ73 (Jun 7, 2012)

DOM said:


> I see Apple using this to jack up there prices even more



Me 2 ...yeah we have a plant in China that pays them $3.00 an hour and they riot about it ,And we will now charge you for an Ipad $600 =profit  Like the line in Pink Flyod`s song 

Money some say is the root of all evil today...


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## Wiselnvestor (Jun 7, 2012)

They got inspiration from that 1984 apple ad, that or the Futurama parody.


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## DannibusX (Jun 7, 2012)

SnoopKatt said:


> Things like this honestly need more light brought onto them. Chinese factory conditions will never improve unless enough people know about them, and if enough people are willing to disapprove of a product until the workers are treated better.



People don't care.  It doesn't effect them.  They get their iPhone, PlayStation, Xbox or Galaxy S device without blood on it.


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## punani (Jun 7, 2012)

Anyone here that wouldn't throw shit around if you're salary dropped 90% but you still need to work just as hard ?

If no one else is gonna help them then why not kick some ass until conditions improve.


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## Kantastic (Jun 7, 2012)

punani said:


> Anyone here that wouldn't throw shit around if you're salary dropped 90% but you still need to work just as hard ?
> 
> If no one else is gonna help them then why not kick some ass until conditions improve.



Wouldn't be so bad considering living expenses would drop about 70%.


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## natr0n (Jun 7, 2012)

apple will say it was a party.


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## erixx (Jun 7, 2012)

Consider this: if China undergoes a second revolution and kicks out the corporations the (western) world crisis is gonna be insane. A coup of generals is not impossible.There are some hard as steel contradictions in that country.


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## Lionheart (Jun 7, 2012)

Keep on rioting peeps


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## dj-electric (Jun 7, 2012)

Finally some people have the balls to riot. Keep on


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## DigitalUK (Jun 7, 2012)

btarunr said:


> The workers were seen chucking pots, pans, garbage, and even fireworks



must have been the motherboard department.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 7, 2012)

I guess their security doesnt look menacing enough







If he was holding a sledge hammer. I doubt any one of the staff would wanna fuck with him let alone riot for fear of getting a sledge hammer to the face!! but then again the first way to stop a uprising is by killing it and i guess thats where their glorious leaderdictatorboss forgot to call in backup and crowd control that shit till shit calmed down and made the workers fall back in line and sit the fuck down like the opressed people they are.

but i digress....China has always had issues with slave labour bad working conditions.

Either Apple or the other big firms they are contracted with dont pay the company enough to pay its staff a decent wage or the company bosses are greedy arseholes who go home and swim in a pool at night......

In any case companies who contract work to them are in a position of power and should demand that the company improve working conditions for the staff or risk losing the contract......Sadly this aint a perfect world. 

corporate scumbags would be less of a scumbag to care a little more about who is building their goods.

A happy worker always works better then one who is less satisfied with his work conditions. 

you could argue that oppressing them also makes them work harder as they fear an ass kicking if the managers/line managers etc etc think that potential individual isnt working hard enough but that doesnt count. 


jobs are so hard to come by in china given the huge population, and people have no choice but to live with it.


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## micropage7 (Jun 7, 2012)

so its like you open pandora box
there many problems that couldnt solve they ground it then when something small happen they gonna burn
if words can do nutting, words aint need anymore


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## Jurassic1024 (Jun 7, 2012)

Thought they fixed this?!  Apple can't build something for $250 and sell it for $700 using factory workers in Asian countries without cutting major corners.


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## Jegergrim (Jun 7, 2012)

It's just a matter of time before we begin seing much larger scale riots in China to be honest, their economy is blooming and living conditions (although not very high) is also improving for somewhat the lower parts of societical hierarchy..


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## brandonwh64 (Jun 7, 2012)

She was like "Im gonna burn this mother down" and I was like "You better not! You better not!"


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 7, 2012)

Jurassic1024 said:


> Thought they fixed this?!  Apple can't build something for $250 and sell it for $700 using factory workers in Asian countries without cutting major corners.



Its called.... 'making a profit'

though directors/bosses/managers of Foxconn are equally as guilty for not negotiating with Apple for more money so staff can be better paid and have better working conditions instead of being treated like stray dogs who have just swam half a mile up a sewer pipe full of runny human excrement

though apple would probably use it as a reason to increase prices. Im sure if the rest of the world knew the kind of conditions the factory workers have to live and work through, they'd think twice about buying another apple product.


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## Jegergrim (Jun 7, 2012)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Its called.... 'making a profit'
> 
> though directors/bosses/managers of Foxconn are equally as guilty for not negotiating with Apple for more money so staff can be better paid and have better working conditions instead of being treated like stray dogs who have just swam half a mile up a sewer pipe full of runny human excrement
> 
> though apple would probably use it as a reason to increase prices. Im sure if the rest of the world knew the kind of conditions the factory workers have to live and work through, they'd think twice about buying another apple product.



Couldn't agree more, but I still think it isn't enough. The fact that the factory workers are litterally suffering for a small profit, just doesn't seem to affect most people I see with iPhone's, when they want one, they want one, and litterally happily pay more than they actually cab afford that specific month, just to have what everyone else has. Personally I don't support any apple product - but for the bigger part of population, they need a better reason for not buying what they want, people suffering half way across the world simply don't affect most people, they struggle 'enough' everyday thinking about what to wear, and how to set the hair today, let alone struggle/"think" about other people's problems, ignorance is bliss, no?.... I would like to lastly say this my subjective point of view...ofcourse I know this isn't how everyone thinks, but the majority just acts that way


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## Sh00t1st (Jun 7, 2012)

Just wanted to say nice job on the news bta  checked cnn and their post is several hours later than your post   bta is officially faster than cnn !!
and right ON foxconn employees, maybe this will make some waves, probably not though.


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## Black Hades (Jun 7, 2012)

Am I the only one who wouldn't care the slightest if Apple jacked up the prices?
I don't own a single device made by them, nor do I desire one to be honest.


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## AphexDreamer (Jun 7, 2012)

Maybe they can bring the Jobs here? Oh noes they'd have to pay people decent wages. Maybe apple fans can see what an apple device really costs.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 7, 2012)

Jegergrim said:


> Couldn't agree more, but I still think it isn't enough. The fact that the factory workers are litterally suffering for a small profit, just doesn't seem to affect most people I see with iPhone's, when they want one, they want one, and litterally happily pay more than they actually cab afford that specific month, just to have what everyone else has. Personally I don't support any apple product - but for the bigger part of population, they need a better reason for not buying what they want, people suffering half way across the world simply don't affect most people, they struggle 'enough' everyday thinking about what to wear, and how to set the hair today, let alone struggle/"think" about other people's problems, ignorance is bliss, no?.... I would like to lastly say this my subjective point of view...ofcourse I know this isn't how everyone thinks, but the majority just acts that way



as an enduser/consumer we are in a position of power. one person boycotting Apple wont be enough. but if this information about how foxxconn treat their staff at the factory to be made more public and a team of reporters and surveyors sent in there to get more information, then im sure more people would be less supportive and willing to buy products from that manufacturer/brand as it only encourages the poor treatment to continue.

How many people do you know that would buy addidas, Rebok or Nike products if they knew that, that $300 pair of football boots/training shoes or that $30-50 T-shirt was made by a group of 5year olds that are barely fed enough to keep rats alive let alone be given basic human rights like an education?

Make more of this information available to the public. show hardcore supporters that wont touch anything if it isnt white or doesnt start with an 'i'. Im sure people would be less forthcoming when it comes to purchasing apple products new or old. 

more people that draw a line in the sand the more apple will listen as soon as it starts eating into their quarterly profits.


but youre right, Most people could really care less about how their iphone or ipad is made or the conditions surrounding its manufacture.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

Man I hope this doesn't delay the new iPhone. That would suck!


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## treehouse (Jun 7, 2012)

lol at the kiddie comments. 

this is foxconn's fault not apple's. there are many other companies apple can get their stuff made by, foxconn provided better margins to apple so they got the deal. simple

and you guys do realise foxconn make the xbox 360 too right? 

the irony is that the blind hate for apple on this forum does not change a thing and never will. apple are the worlds most valuable company, tough luck dudes. 


_sent from my iPad _

edit- saw a comment that i had to quote "At least half the stuff you own that is not from apple is also made/assembled by foxconn.

I wouldn't be surprised if the computer you're using is not at least partially touched by foxconn."

_edited from my iPhone_


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## Black Hades (Jun 7, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Man I hope this doesn't delay the new iPhone. That would suck!



Haha! Nice. I actually stopped for a second to think "wait, what if he's not being sarcastic?"


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## D007 (Jun 7, 2012)

Is that a sledge hammer with a spike in it? Wow...



treehouse said:


> lol at the kiddie comments.
> 
> this is foxconn's fault not apple's. there are many other companies apple can get their stuff made by, foxconn provided better margins to apple so they got the deal. simple
> 
> ...



And you cry   /why? You sound like you work for them.. Or you're just super, ultra, mega fanboy..

"sent from my idc device"


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## treehouse (Jun 7, 2012)

D007 said:


> Is that a sledge hammer with a spike in it? Wow...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



who's crying? just cuz i dont sound like you so that must mean i work for them? sure kiddy. i could not care less what happens to apple, i just like pointing out contradictions in forum trends 

_sent from my iPad_


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## hardcore_gamer (Jun 7, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> Maybe they can bring the Jobs here?



They can't. He's dead Jim!!


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## AphexDreamer (Jun 7, 2012)

I don't condone any companies product that uses another companies cheap/cruel  labor to make more profit themselves. Or try not to at least. 

So that means no apple product or xbox for me. Alternatively the PS3/PC and Droid has been doing the job just fine.


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## Kreij (Jun 7, 2012)

It's nice to think that if no one bought [insert mfgr] products that conditions would change in China, but it would make zero difference. 
The Chinese government/corps have been oppressing their people long before these manufacturers came on the scene.
The only thing that would have any effect would be a massive uprising by the people of China.

The problem is that when you have a miltary that has no qualms about killing their own people (who are basically unarmed and dirt poor) it makes it very difficult to get anything going.

There are dissidents who attempt to effect change through reporting things like living conditions and government oppression, but the Chinese government simply does not care what the rest of the world thinks or they would have changed long ago.

This is why so many Americans fight so hard to keep our 2nd Amendment rights.

Just my 2 cents. Carry on ....


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## treehouse (Jun 7, 2012)

Kreij said:


> It's nice to think that if no one bought [insert mfgr] products that conditions would change in China, but it would make zero difference.
> The Chinese government/corps have been oppressing their people long before these manufacturers came on the scene.
> The only thing that would have any effect would be a massive uprising by the people of China.
> 
> ...



completely agree, and now with china becoming more powerful with each passing year and america becoming weaker, they have even less of a reason to care these days


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## D007 (Jun 7, 2012)

treehouse said:


> who's crying? just cuz i dont sound like you so that must mean i work for them? sure kiddy. i could not care less what happens to apple, i just like pointing out contradictions in forum trends
> 
> _sent from my iPad_



So you're a troll.. 
Congratulations


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## treehouse (Jun 7, 2012)

D007 said:


> So you're a troll..
> Congratulations



if pointing out contradictions in forum trends makes me a troll then yes, yes i am a troll


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## KainXS (Jun 7, 2012)

apple and foxconn and most importantly the chinese government, are at fault, they need to protest(which is something you don't wanna do in china) more but the problem is that the chinese government does NOT side with its citizens, they side with the corporations 99% of the time because thats whats profitable to the country, america does this also but nowhere even close to the way the chinese do it.

If you think apples not a fault then you need to wake up and take those apples out of your soul.

and foxconn has been doing this for a LONG time, its just that since its apple this time pushing them everyone wants to look and go like oh looky looky and its sad that its like that, apple is pushing them, which makes the problem a little worst but this has been happening for a long time at foxconns facilities.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

Kreij said:


> It's nice to think that if no one bought [insert mfgr] products that conditions would change in China, but it would make zero difference.
> The Chinese government/corps have been oppressing their people long before these manufacturers came on the scene.
> The only thing that would have any effect would be a massive uprising by the people of China.
> 
> ...



China is a prime example of how big government is evil and we are on a highway to the same lifestyle. However I am enjoying the cycle of mans short term memory.


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## treehouse (Jun 7, 2012)

KainXS said:


> apple is pushing them, which makes the problem a little worst but this has been happening for a long time at foxconns facilities.



i dont see how its apple's fault that foxconn are saying 'yes'??

assuming that apple are actually pushing them in the first place


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## erixx (Jun 7, 2012)

last couple mobo's (Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte) I installed had all written "foxconn" on serveral parts, so I feel equally guilty and I don't have Apples (for other reasons than Foxconn).

Sure it is not always a free freemarket, but finally to sign you need two parties. It is like drug dealers or whorehouses.... client and seller are both taking part in criminality.  And that is what capitalism has turned into, a dozed pleasure addiction infestation... and we don't know for exactly what! Now the religions can come back from the basement to give people a cheap explanation!
Oh, era of reason, what have you become!

Ok, ok, I'll lay the pipe down...


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

erixx said:


> last couple mobo's (Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte) I installed had all written "foxconn" on serveral parts, so I feel equally guilty and I don't have Apples (for other reasons than Foxconn).
> 
> Sure it is not always a free freemarket, but finally to sign you need two parties. It is like drug dealers or whorehouses.... client and seller are both taking part in criminality.  And that is what capitalism has turned into, a dozed pleasure addiction infestation... and we don't know for exactly what! Now the religions can come back from the basement to give people a cheap explanation!
> Oh, era of reason, what have you become!
> ...



Honestly most religions have been preaching "I told ya so" for years now. Its the "era of reason" that has everyone "living for today" and not giving a crap about their fellow man. I personally think we are in an intellectual dark age and I have to look no further then twitter, facebook or even 4chan for proof.


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## erocker (Jun 7, 2012)

I love how so many people are bashing Apple due to this when everyone here most likely owns something that is made by Foxconn. Hypocrites.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

erocker said:


> I love how so many people are bashing Apple due to this when everyone here most likely owns something that is made by Foxconn. Hypocrites.



I'm loving it. Sheeple as usual.


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## manson_ze (Jun 7, 2012)

The Modern Age Slavery


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## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 7, 2012)

erocker said:


> I love how so many people are bashing Apple due to this when everyone here most likely owns something that is made by Foxconn. Hypocrites.



Yes, all Chinese products are made with evil but Not all facilities are as bad as the Foxconn/Apple facility....

They let the vendor choose the working conditions and whatnot and soulless Apple takes it to extremes...

BTW except what I have no choice on all my Electronics are made in Taiwan/Korea/Japan


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> Yes, all Chinese products are made with evil but Not all facilities are as bad as the Foxconn/Apple facility....
> 
> They let the vendor choose the working conditions and whatnot and soulless Apple takes it to extremes...
> 
> BTW except what I have no choice on all my Electronics are made in Taiwan/Korea/Japan



Have you ever been to a textile factory in Asia? Foxconn looks like a Utopia compared to those places yet I see no one turning down 5$ dollar shirts from Walmart. I once saw a man LIVING under one of the presses in Pakistan.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 7, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Have you ever been to a textile factory in Asia? Foxconn looks like a Utopia compared to those places yet I see no one turning down 5$ dollar shirts from Walmart.



No I haven't but I personally refuse to shop at Walmart...
I also don't buy clothes made in China or shoes....
My clothes are made in the USA, Dominican Republic, Mexico and El Salvador....

I do my best to support the Local economy and our South American food trading partners...

Oh and I'm 100% against Steel from Pakistan....wont even haul it.


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## Aquinus (Jun 7, 2012)

I'm proud (and glad) to be an American citizen?

This isn't Apple's problem, it's Foxconn's, and you know that if they can't deliver, Apple will just sell their business to the next lowest bidder. I feel bad for a lot of the working conditions in China, but there isn't much I can do about it and the more you hear about things like this the more I can confidently say that the Chinese people are going to find a way to fix this themselves. I would just hate to see what a modern day civil war in China would do. 

Also keep in mind that some people don't have the money or the time to be able to always support local business and to exclusively ignore products made in China and sometimes it's just unavoidable.


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## Dent1 (Jun 7, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> Yes, all Chinese products are made with evil but Not all facilities are as bad as the Foxconn/Apple facility....






FreedomEclipse said:


> Its called.... 'making a profit'
> 
> though directors/bosses/managers of Foxconn are equally as guilty for not negotiating with Apple for more money so staff can be better paid and have better working conditions instead of being treated like stray dogs who have just swam half a mile up a sewer pipe full of runny human excrement
> 
> though apple would probably use it as a reason to increase prices. Im sure if the rest of the world knew the kind of conditions the factory workers have to live and work through, they'd think twice about buying another apple product.



The issue is bigger than Foxconn and Apple. It isn't just about profit either. The issue is a political one. It's China's government, China has very few strong laws that enforce basic rights for employees regarding pay and working conditions. 

You realise that China's Government has made it illegal to protest. So even if employees form a union or lobby for more pay they will be arrested and might even face the death penalty.  

So yes, Apple and Foxconn want profit, but ultimately the buck stops with China's corrupt Government for not putting in place basic legislation and enforcing it.


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## trickson (Jun 7, 2012)

Man this could all be avoided if we just stop making shit in CHINA! All we ever hear about is the poor people over there and how down troden they are! Too bad! Suck it up! This is the kind of government you wanted! Man how it is so time to put made in America back on the goods!


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## erocker (Jun 7, 2012)

trickson said:


> Man this could all be avoided if we just stop making shit in CHINA! All we ever hear about is the poor people over there and how down troden they are! Too bad! Suck it up! This is the kind of government you wanted! Man how it is so time to put made in America back on the goods!



People need to stop buying these goods, stop going to places where these goods are sold. It's not going to happen anytime soon.


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## trickson (Jun 7, 2012)

erocker said:


> People need to stop buying these goods, stop going to places where these goods are sold. It's not going to happen anytime soon.



I so agree! It is tragic that made in America is now made in China, And all we hear about is how bad they have it! Well piss off with that crap. Riot and maybe things will change for you? I say we need to bring the good times back to America!


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## Dent1 (Jun 7, 2012)

trickson said:


> Man this could all be avoided if we just stop making shit in CHINA! All we ever hear about is the poor people over there and how down troden they are!



There is a bigger world outside America, only 30% of you guys have passports, which puts American's in a weak position to talk criticially about other cultures.



trickson said:


> I so agree! It is tragic that made in America is now made in China, And all we hear about is how bad they have it! Well piss off with that crap. Riot and maybe things will change for you? I say we need to bring the good times back to America!



What good times was that? When did America make stuff. Tell me what America manufactured please?



trickson said:


> Too bad! Suck it up! This is the kind of government you wanted! Man how it is so time to put made in America back on the goods!



The Chinese people don't want that Government. It isn't like America where you vote and have a fair system. You honestly think the Chinese people want to be oppressed?

The problem with manufacturing in America is it doesn't have enough natural resources for manufacturing. In a way China is holding America and the rest of the western world ransom because we need their natural resources. 

In a few decades to a century China will be economically as powerful as America, maybe more so. The Chinese will be exporting products to America at 10x the price and there will be nothing America can do. So enjoy it now because China will get the last laugh.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> What good times was that? When did America make stuff. Tell me what America manufactured please?



You do realize America is still one of the largest producers of goods in the world? We make most the tools other countries build things with. We make a VAST amount of industrial equipment. We make the things that make things basically.


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## Dent1 (Jun 7, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You do realize America is still one of the largest producers of goods in the world? We make most the tools other countries build things with. We make a VAST amount of industrial equipment. We make the things that make things basically.



Indeed. USA is doing very well for manufacturing. But compared to South East Asia on a whole they far dominates USA for manufacturing to the point where  USA isn't on the radar. 

I believe China as an independent country is just behind or on par with USA for manufacturing, which says alot considering China is almost like a third world country in certain districts. 

It's amazing a country which has a weak economy (but growing rapidly) and is near third world has equal manufacturing than a superpower like America. Think how things will be in a few decades


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> Indeed. USA doing very well for manufacturing. But compared to South East Asia on a whole they far dominates America for manufacturing to the point where America isn't on the radar.
> 
> I believe China as an independent country is just behind or on par with USA for manufacturing, which isn't saying much considering China is almost like a third world country in certain districts.
> 
> It's amazing a country which has a weak economy (but growing rapidly) and is near third world has equal manufacturing than a superpower like America. Think how things will be in a few decades



Within a few decades it will collapse in on itself. Japan was in FAR better shape in the 80's and look what happen there. India has a FAR better chance of being a powerhouse in the long run. China is manipulating its currency and is severely oppressing its people. Its a powder keg. A LOT of US companies have been pulling out of Hong Kong because of the writing on the wall.


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## D007 (Jun 7, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> Indeed. USA is doing very well for manufacturing. But compared to South East Asia on a whole they far dominates USA for manufacturing to the point where  USA isn't on the radar.
> 
> I believe China as an independent country is just behind or on par with USA for manufacturing, which says alot considering China is almost like a third world country in certain districts.
> 
> It's amazing a country which has a weak economy (but growing rapidly) and is near third world has equal manufacturing than a superpower like America. Think how things will be in a few decades



China is just going to fold under the pressure it creates. America manufactures like an animal and anyone who says otherwise has no idea where goods come from on this planet and should likely not even be talking about gross exports and the economy. How can anyone even say "America is not even on the radar"? that is just ridiculous and sounds like plain old America bashing.. Nothing more, nothing less..


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## Dent1 (Jun 7, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Within a few decades it will collapse in on itself. Japan was in FAR better shape in the 80's and look what happen there. India has a FAR better chance of being a powerhouse in the long run. China is manipulating its currency and is severely oppressing its people. Its a powder keg. A LOT of US companies have been pulling out of Hong Kong because of the writing on the wall.



India has scope to do well. Japan is already doing well.

China has a lot of issue surround its Government, but will become a superpower by default. The sheer size of the country and quantity of citizens means its bound to happen, look at any financial article and there are plenty of statistics on this matter.  

Do not confuse China with Hong Kong, Hong Kong is culturally different and their government is completely different, they are more socialist and have good working conditions for employees, basic human rights, animal rights, respect for copyright and privacy and actively enforce it. They have things you expect from a civilised society in the 21st century.




D007 said:


> How can anyone even say "America is not even on the radar"? that is just ridiculous and sounds like plain old America bashing.. Nothing more, nothing less..



Compared to South East Asia on a whole yes. I.e. China, Cambodia, Mongolia, Vietnam, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand, East Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Singapore etc

It's not America bashing I'm telling 100% documented facts. Would you rather I lie?


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 7, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> India has scope to do well. Japan is already doing well.
> 
> China has a lot of issue surround its Government, but will become a superpower by default. The sheer size of the country and quantity of citizens means its bound to happen, look at any financial article and there are plenty of statistics on this matter.



Ive been to China a few times. I know exactly what Hong Kong WAS and is becoming. The only reason Hong Kong was relatively civilized by western standards was due to British occupation. But that ship has sailed. The Chinese government is gonna milk it for all it can to maintain power. Pretty soon that nest egg will be depleted and you will see a mass exodus of foreign investors. Also Japan is doing well? Guess you haven't seen their debt to GDP ratio in the last 20 years. They have taken Keynesian eco. to a new level of fail. Germany is doing FAR better.



Dent1 said:


> It's not America bashing I'm telling 100% documented facts. Would you rather I lie?



Yeah we are not even on the map?


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## erixx (Jun 7, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Honestly most religions have been preaching "I told ya so" for years now. Its the "era of reason" that has everyone "living for today" and not giving a crap about their fellow man. I personally think we are in an intellectual dark age and I have to look no further then twitter, facebook or even 4chan for proof.



You should have included gamers, lol. Sorry Mailman, but in the centuries before people like always also lived like crazy "for the day", please don't pretend to sell 'good ole times of granddady'. Tolkien wrote novels not history.
And the internet sheep do not represent by a huge distance the vision, practice and morals of the rationalist humanity and movement, it's geniuses and conquests. Today is not an intellectual dark age, just remove your shades... The power of Money is just to omnipresent and determinant in life, just look inside churches backyards and backsquadrons, lol.


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## Dent1 (Jun 7, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive been to China a few times. I know exactly what Hong Kong WAS and is becoming. The only reason Hong Kong was relatively civilized by western standards was due to British occupation.



The reasoning will sidetrack the conversation. But I agree. It's a very westernised place. When I went there were more KFCs and McDonalds per mile than in London and their English is very good unlike China's.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Also Japan is doing well? Guess you haven't seen their debt to GDP ratio in the last 20 years. They have taken Keynesian eco. to a new level of fail. Germany is doing FAR better.



But you say that like America is doing well and aren't in debt also. Japan is doing well relative to America, if America is your benchmark.




TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah we are not even on the map?
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...inal_and_ppp_2005_world_map_single_colour.png



That is very interesting. But doesnt show much.




> It’s true that U.S. manufacturing value added – basically, the value of the U.S.’ manufacturing output – is still bigger than China’s, but only by about 13 percent.  And the value of China’s manufacturing output has been rising much faster than the U.S.’



http://www.chinaglobaltrade.com/article/us-manufacturing-and-trade-with-china

So only 13% separates a super power like USA compared to a country where its citizens are living like a third world in China. Now if we add South-East Asia on a whole, then yes USA isn't on the radar as China by self is almost on par.

Also to add, USA is slow down manufacturing (for cheaper labour elsewhere and because of diminishing natural resources) whereas China is speeding up manufacturing. One is slowing down where another is speeding up!


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> Also to add, USA is slow down manufacturing (for cheaper labour elsewhere and because of diminishing natural resources) whereas china is speeding up manufacturing. One is slowing down where another is speeding up!



Actually China's economy has been slowing lately.

The US is also the largest exporter of firearms in the world. Also keep in mind that a lot of these products being made in China were designed and developed in the USA.


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## Dent1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Actually China's economy has been slowing lately.



We are talking about China's manufacturing growth, not china's general economy growth.




Aquinus said:


> The US is also the largest exporter of firearms in the world. Also keep in mind that a lot of these products being made in China were designed and developed in the USA.




Being the largest exporter of firearms in the world is nothing to be proud of. America and their killing machines. Shameful.

Yes, a lot of good ideas came from USA and Europe, being a highly developed countries they have the well educated scientists and researchers. But it doesn't take away that manufacturing is decreasing in the western world. They depend on Asia to mass produce their designs.


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## slybunda (Jun 8, 2012)

waiting for china to undergo civil war. only way to stop the commies.


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## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (Jun 8, 2012)

slybunda said:


> waiting for china to undergo civil war. only way to stop the commies.



FYI we are not in the 60s anymore


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## Cruise51 (Jun 8, 2012)

DigitalUK said:


> must have been the motherboard department.



lmfao that was great.


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## xkm1948 (Jun 8, 2012)

The workers there must be really pissed off to go on the violent way. As far as I know, Chinese workers are known for their high level of tolerance.


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## Prima.Vera (Jun 8, 2012)

Ever wonder why Apple is a multi billion $ company?? This is the answer. Cheap labor to maximize profit. Until they snap...


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## Laurijan (Jun 8, 2012)

This is not the first time Foxconn´s China plant is in the news - last time there were suicides for Foxconn workers there


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## Prima.Vera (Jun 8, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> So even if employees form a union or lobby for more pay they will be arrested and *might even face the death penalty*.



No they wont. They will be fined or do some voluntary labor work for community. Communism is not only about death penalty you know...



trickson said:


> I say we need to bring the good times back to America!



And triple the price of ALL products?!? Good bankruptcy!



TheMailMan78 said:


> You do realize America is still one of the largest producers of goods in the world? We make most the tools other countries build things with. We make a VAST amount of industrial equipment. We make the things that make things basically.



Interesting. I have travel all over the Europe and some countries in Asia, and in which I never found 1 (one) product made in US. 
Ex:
clothing: all made in China, Vietnam
electronics: all made in China, Taiwan or Japan
toys: all made in China
house tools: all made in China, Swiss, Sweden, Germany, etc
consumables: as above...


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> Interesting. I have travel all over the Europe and some countries in Asia, and in which I never found 1 (one) product made in US.



Maybe that is because the 5 primary countries the US exports to is Canada, Mexico, China, Japan, and the UK.

Maybe this will help shed some light on the topic.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/03/14/148460268/what-america-sells-to-the-world


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## Prima.Vera (Jun 8, 2012)

LOL. You mean those:






You don't want me to put China exports list, hahaha. I think 10 pages of this forum wont be enough.... LOL


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## Dent1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> No they wont. They will be fined or do some voluntary labor work for community. Communism is not only about death penalty you know...



Or they might just disappear. 

Yes, death penalty is a bit extreme, they usually reserve that for Citizens that lobby for political change lol



Prima.Vera said:


> You don't want me to put China exports list, hahaha. I think 10 pages of this forum wont be enough.... LOL



I think its needed. Post China. A lot of Americans are still in denial about both China's export and manufacturing power.


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> You don't want me to put China exports list, hahaha. I think 10 pages of this forum wont be enough.... LOL



Is that why the US' GDP is 15 trillion USD and China's is 5.93 trillion? You make it sound like material exports determine a countries' economic status.


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## Prima.Vera (Jun 8, 2012)

No, this is why US debt is *~16 trillion*. Greece was bankrupted for A LOT less....


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## Dent1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Is that why the US' GDP is 15 trillion USD and China's is 5.93 trillion? You make it sound like material exports determine a countries' economic status.



Why do you fight it. I already posted an article earlier from a reputable source saying that manufacturing in China is increasing and almost near USA. I posted the link and everything. Are you saying the article is wrong?

GDP isn't good measurement in this situation. If you use GDP you are actually showing that USA is worse off.

The way GDP measurements are based around the cost of material, supplies and services used to produce final goods or services. 

Naturally products in USA will cost more overal due to higher labour costs, higher material costs, thus the end product will cost more in retailers/shops so profit can be made. Therefore because American produced product sell for more in retail outlets the GDP is higher.

So really 15 trillion USD vs 5.93 trillion is just showing that products made in USA cost more to produce and sell for more and that products made in China are made cheap and are sold cheaply. It really has nothing to do with whether manufacturing is growing, stabilising or increasing (unless you compare trending metrics over long durations)

An example of GDP could be:

I can build 1,000 budget computers costing £500 per unit, grossing per year £500,000 (China)

Where whereas you can build 6,000 high end computers costing £1500 per unit, grossing per year 9000,000 (USA)

Even though I manufactured more PCs than you and sold for cheaper, you still grossed more than me (GDP). It doesn't mean you manufacture more it means you gross more due to higher prices and labour.


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> Why do you fight it. I already posted an article earlier from a reputable source saying that manufacturing in China is increasing and almost near USA. I posted the link and everything. Are you saying the article is wrong?
> 
> GDP isn't good measurement in this situation. If you use GDP you are actually showing that USA is worse off.
> 
> ...



That assumes that 100% of the US' GDP reflects only exports, which isn't true. There is a lot of products produced in the US that are used internally which reduces how much we need to import. You can't deny that the US is an economic power house weather physical products are created here and exported or not. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the US is perfect, but the only reason things cost less in China is because they treat their citizens like crap. The quality of life in the US for most average Americans is pretty good and the cost to maintain that style of living requires higher wages.


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## acerace (Jun 8, 2012)

Gosh, stop it. We live in a same small world. We need each other, don't fight anymore, it's not healthy.


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

acerace said:


> Gosh, stop it. We live in a same small world. We need each other, don't fight anymore, it's not healthy.



It's surprising how many people don't realize that.


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## Prima.Vera (Jun 8, 2012)

acerace said:


> Gosh, stop it. We live in a same small world. We need each other, don't fight anymore, it's not healthy.



Tell that to my brother who almost died in Afganistan fighting other nations (read US) wars...
Question is, for what, why, what is the purpose??:shadedshu




Aquinus said:


> but the only reason things cost less in China is because they treat their citizens like crap. The quality of life in the US for most average Americans is pretty good and the cost to maintain that style of living requires higher wages.



In China unemployment rate is ZERO(0%), they offer free apartments to all graduates, free schools, some areas have free local transportation, etc. Lower wedge? Yeah....they don't pay rent, mortgage, 1 million taxes, etc...Let's not judge before knowing all the facts


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> In China unemployment rate is ZERO(0%), they offer free apartments to all graduates, free schools, some areas have free local transportation, etc. Lower wedge? Yeah....they don't pay rent, mortgage, 1 million taxes, etc...Let's not judge before knowing all the facts



Just because everything is free, doesn't mean that it is good. I would like to be able to actually own my house, thank you. 

If it is so good, why don't you move to China?


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## Frizz (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> In China unemployment rate is ZERO(0%), they offer free apartments to all graduates, free schools, some areas have free local transportation, etc. Lower wedge? Yeah....they don't pay rent, mortgage, 1 million taxes, etc...Let's not judge before knowing all the facts



I heard medical bills are also free, if someone hits you with their car, they're liable for all expenses. Don't be surprised if your daughter gets run over by a poor man's car who will most likely choose to kill her then run, rather than injure her and pay her medical bills the rest of his life.


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## Mussels (Jun 8, 2012)

from what i see on news sites reporting on chinas living conditions, those 'free' accomodation that students get, is worse than the homeless in other countries. food vendors using sewage as cooking oil, 'fresh' produce soaked in contaminated river water to make it weigh more before sale...

everywhere has its own problems, and chinas are certainly worrying. its no wonder people there have problems with the conditions.


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## hardcore_gamer (Jun 8, 2012)

If all big countries are in debt, then who has all the money ?


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## Frizz (Jun 8, 2012)

hardcore_gamer said:


> If all big countries are in debt, then who has all the money ?



banks


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## entropy13 (Jun 8, 2012)

random said:


> I heard medical bills are also free, if someone hits you with their car, they're liable for all expenses. Don't be surprised if your daughter gets run over by a poor man's car who will most likely choose to kill her then run, rather than injure her and pay her medical bills the rest of his life.



A Chinese truck driver already ran over a young boy twice to save himself from medical costs.

A young girl was ran over by at least 4 different vehicles but eventually died after a few days.



Mussels said:


> from what i see on news sites reporting on chinas living conditions, those 'free' accomodation that students get, is worse than the homeless in other countries. food vendors using sewage as cooking oil, 'fresh' produce soaked in contaminated river water to make it weigh more before sale...
> 
> everywhere has its own problems, and chinas are certainly worrying. its no wonder people there have problems with the conditions.



Sewage for cooking oil, fermented human hair for soy sauce, exploding watermelons, exploding sewers, sidewalks suddenly collapsing, crashing bullet trains, no safety measures in place to prevent bullet trains from crashing with another, a lot of fake products, walnuts made of cement, exploding coins, red/yellow/orange (literal) rivers, slimy and green beaches, high-rise apartments with shoddy foundations, randomly exploding apartments, exploding monitors, pillows filled with rubbish, punching bag filled with garbage, Chinese pet shops injecting puppies with heroin, exploding toilets, seaweed that is actually plastic, bridge partially made of rubbish, hairbands made from condoms, etc.


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

entropy13 said:


> A Chinese truck driver already ran over a young boy twice to save himself from medical costs.
> 
> A young girl was ran over by at least 4 different vehicles but eventually died after a few days.
> 
> ...



I suddenly became a lot happier to be an American citizen.


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Good Morning America on ABC here in America just showed a sink hole in the middle of a street in China that swallowed a full size SUV.


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## Prima.Vera (Jun 8, 2012)

Wow!!! So many hypocrites in one place! People that never lived 1 minute in other country thinks they know everything only by watching YouTube and 6o'clock news!! Great! You guys are very "enlightened". In deed!
Personally I'm work traveling a lot into Asia to know how things REALLY are. And that Filipino guy should be the last person saying bad things about China. We both know why ...


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## entropy13 (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> And that Filipino guy should be the last person saying bad things about China. We both know why ...



They have ships in our territory and I'm supposed to be the last person saying bad things about them?


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## HossHuge (Jun 8, 2012)

I guess the rioters figured that nothing has changed since the people were killing themselves so they are rioting instead.   No sense killing yourselves when nothing is going to happen.



Prima.Vera said:


> Wow!!! So many hypocrites in one place! People that never lived 1 minute in other country thinks they know everything only by watching YouTube and 6o'clock news!! Great! You guys are very "enlightened". In deed!
> Personally I'm work traveling a lot into Asia to know how things REALLY are. And that Filipino guy should be the last person saying bad things about China. We both know why ...



I've never really understood why everyone has a hate-on for China.  Every country is fucked up somehow.

Remember, they have 1/4 of the world's population to deal with.  What other organization has to manage that many people?



entropy13 said:


> They have ships in our territory and I'm supposed to be the last person saying bad things about them?



The Philippines extradited 10 Taiwanese to  China last year and not back to Taiwan.  So should I be saying bad stuff about The Philippines?


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## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (Jun 8, 2012)

entropy13 said:


> Sewage for cooking oil, fermented human hair for soy sauce, exploding watermelons, exploding sewers, sidewalks suddenly collapsing, crashing bullet trains, no safety measures in place to prevent bullet trains from crashing with another, a lot of fake products, walnuts made of cement, exploding coins, red/yellow/orange (literal) rivers, slimy and green beaches, high-rise apartments with shoddy foundations, randomly exploding apartments, exploding monitors, pillows filled with rubbish, punching bag filled with garbage, Chinese pet shops injecting puppies with heroin, exploding toilets, seaweed that is actually plastic, bridge partially made of rubbish, hairbands made from condoms, etc.



As far as i know, at least some of them are rumors


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> Wow!!! So many hypocrites in one place! People that never lived 1 minute in other country thinks they know everything only by watching YouTube and 6o'clock news!! Great! You guys are very "enlightened". In deed!
> Personally I'm work traveling a lot into Asia to know how things REALLY are. And that Filipino guy should be the last person saying bad things about China. We both know why ...



Ive been to Asia more the a "few" times and let me tell you there isn't American hiding in shipping containers for a chance to live in China.


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> As far as i know, at least some of them are rumors



Even a hand full of these are pretty bad, some might be rumors but what about the rest that aren't. Some of these are really bad.


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## Dent1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> That assumes that 100% of the US' GDP reflects only exports which isn't true. There is a lot of products produced in the US that are used internally which reduces how much we need to import.



You are getting confused. There are three equations for calculating GDP. 

You are talking about the government expenditure formula which factors in import and export. 

The formula I'm talking about is aimed at production in a given country. All my examples are based on production not government expenditure or citizen income level which has a different formula and has a different set of statistics.



Aquinus said:


> You can't deny that the US is an economic power house weather physical products are created here and exported or not. Now don't get me wrong.



Of course US is an economic power house.



Aquinus said:


> the only reason things cost less in China is because they treat their citizens like crap.



That's not totally true. Yes the government can do more, but another reason things are cheaper in China is because western societies like America and Europe have set up companies abroad in China and have manipulated unskilled workers, underage workers into working long and unsociable hours for a low wage. Plus  China has access to natural materials like coal, iron ore, magnetite, petroleum, aluminium so their value is very cheap due to it's availability thus making the end product cheaper to produce, whereas in USA  those materials are rare thus the end product cost more.




Aquinus said:


> The quality of life in the US for most average Americans is pretty good and the cost to maintain that style of living requires higher wages.



So if a poor Chinese person lives with 3 uncles, an 2 aunties, and have 8 babies between them in a bedroom flat with no heating, internet or electricity because its all hey can afford,  it's OK for them to be exploited because their standard of living doesn't require a high wage?




TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive been to Asia more the a "few" times and let me tell you there isn't American hiding in shipping containers for a chance to live in China.



I've met plenty of western people whom have decided to live in China and South East Asia full time. They wanted a better quality of life (you can live like a millionaire on a average western salary)


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## Aquinus (Jun 8, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> So if a poor Chinese person lives in with 3 uncles, an 2 aunties, and have 8 babies between them in a bedroom flat with no heating, internet or electricity because its all hey can afford, it's OK for them to be exploited because their standard of living doesn't require a high wage?



I never said I condone what is happening to the Chinese people and I truly feel for them. Something has to change but it won't be the rest of the world to bring upon that change. I'm also sure that they didn't choose that standard of living. Just because some very wealthy Americans can afford 10 cars and a private jet doesn't mean all Americans can and quite frankly I don't condone the actions of the super rich either. I believe that all people have a right to a reasonable quality of life and I do mean everyone, Chinese, American, Taiwanese, you name it. We're all human beings and none of us are any better than the next man or women.


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## xkm1948 (Jun 8, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> Tell that to my brother who almost died in Afganistan fighting other nations (read US) wars...
> Question is, for what, why, what is the purpose??:shadedshu
> 
> 
> ...



Completely BS. I have lived in China for more than 5 yrs and what you described was the red China in 1960s under Mao's rule.


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## xkm1948 (Jun 8, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> You are getting confused. There are three equations for calculating GDP.
> 
> You are talking about the government expenditure formula which factors in import and export.
> 
> ...



Experienced it first hand. Mostly because Chinese/Asian people have this strange admiration of US.


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## Dent1 (Jun 8, 2012)

xkm1948 said:


> Experienced it first hand. Mostly because Chinese/Asian people have this strange admiration of US.



Like in China, as a foreign guy I could go to the most upper-class seafood restaurant in town without reservation and dine on a 3 course meal. Have a constant flow of beer and tea and struggle to spend 60 Yuan, which is equivalent to £6 in English money. In contrast in England I would have to reserve a table, turn up in a suit and tie and squint when the bill arrives because it will be in the ballpark of £100.

You can rent a top class hotel for 100 Yuan a night which is about £10 in English money. The equivalent hotel in England would be closer to £80 a night.

For this reason, many people have decided to emigrate from Europe to South East Asia to live like a millionaire!


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## acerace (Jun 9, 2012)

You know, ancient China is a very great country. But now, IMO, I don't think so.


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## entropy13 (Jun 9, 2012)

HossHuge said:


> The Philippines extradited 10 Taiwanese to  China last year and not back to Taiwan.  So should I be saying bad stuff about The Philippines?



That was done as response to Taiwan limiting the entry of *legal* Filipino workers. You reap what you sow. All we've done was respond, whether it was that debacle with Taiwan (which the government doesn't officially even recognizes LOL) or with mainland China (Scarborough Shoal; even Taiwan apparently makes the same claims too LOL).


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## SIGSEGV (Jun 9, 2012)

Dent1 said:


> Like in China, as a foreign guy I could go to the most upper-class seafood restaurant in town without reservation and dine on a 3 course meal. Have a constant flow of beer and tea and struggle to spend 60 Yuan, which is equivalent to £6 in English money. In contrast in England I would have to reserve a table, turn up in a suit and tie and squint when the bill arrives because it will be in the ballpark of £100.
> 
> You can rent a top class hotel for 100 Yuan a night which is about £10 in English money. The equivalent hotel in England would be closer to £80 a night.
> 
> For this reason, many people have decided to emigrate from Europe to South East Asia to live like a millionaire!


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## erixx (Jun 10, 2012)

please stop the bs and go revolutionize your countries.


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## Deadlyraver (Jun 10, 2012)

There goes the neighborhood.


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## TheLaughingMan (Jun 11, 2012)

iBathSalts


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## Aquinus (Jun 11, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> iBathSalts



Do you like to cannibalize homeless people's faces? We don't need real zombies, damn it!


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