# Adding a tube amp to my solid state system.



## Techlover66 (Apr 22, 2018)

Hello Members. I am thinking of buying a mono price tube amp 27222. It has tubes on both the pre amp and the power amp side. It has pre outs on it. With a phono stage, aux and bluetooth. I would mainly use it as a phono pre amp and connecting it to my yamaha reciever. It has pre outs on it as does the tube amp.  Do i just connect rca cables from both pre outs ?


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## cornemuse (Apr 22, 2018)

Why a tube preamp??

I have this: TC-750LC, it works really well, though I dont use it a lot anymore.

https://www.phonopreamps.com/tc750lcpp.html


-c-


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## Ferrum Master (Apr 22, 2018)

Don't do it without schematics.

I really do not know how pre out is made, is it cap or transformer coupled past 6H3 tubes. (most boring piece of shit soviet tubes I've held in my hands).

If so, you loose the half of the amplifier functionality, the EL84 section. Even more, it could be coming from the DAC/Bluetooth stack also, then you loose all the amp and it just works as a room heater.

Don't play with things you don't understand, especially with old tube tech. Avoid buying them, it is all brainwash for most of things, that actually only sellers pretend to believe and some tech site reviewers do believe(same fashion thing as Flying Spaghetti Monster).

If you need a preamp buy a preamp designed specially for that. Tube or not. If you seek a tube sound you will be really disappointed with this setup, as low gain of the 6H3 and low driven pentode(basing opinion on the THD figure) will produce pretty straight sound signature, transistor like actually due to modern implementation, also there is no lack high voltage passive of parts anymore these days.

If you seek shitty warm sound seek for 12AX7 at the front, as their high gain stage will ramp up signature distortion figures and just do a preamp. They will cost much less too, and you will get the idea.


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## WhiteNoise (Apr 27, 2018)

Ferrum knows his shit.


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## Sasqui (Apr 27, 2018)

My $0.02, tube amps are great for nostalgia,  and getting a specific sound for things like live vocals and guitar amps, but for HiFi reproduction of recordings, stick with solid state.  You may have your own reasons for doing what you're doing, so take my advice with a grain of sodium chloride


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## WhiteNoise (Apr 29, 2018)

I'll step in and add that I am a tube lover. I prefer the tube sound. You just have to stay away from the junk. There are fantastic tube amps and preamps out there. Not sure about the nostalgia thing as there are plenty of high end tube gear that many prefer and love as well as vintage and well built tube amps too. I own everything from tube, hybrid, and solid state. Give me a good tube set up any day.

Now that mono price tube amp I would avoid.

I don't believe that is what Ferrum Master was saying. If I'm not mistaken he builds tube amps. I believe I have a video of one of his creations in the making and even through you tube I can tell it is lovely sounding.



Techlover66 said:


> Hello Members. I am thinking of buying a mono price tube amp 27222. It has tubes on both the pre amp and the power amp side. It has pre outs on it. With a phono stage, aux and bluetooth. I would mainly use it as a phono pre amp and connecting it to my yamaha reciever. It has pre outs on it as does the tube amp.  Do i just connect rca cables from both pre outs ?



To answer your question: Yes you just run RCA cables from the preout to the yamaha amp in. But you will have to add the source to the tube amp input to use the tube amp as a preamp. I'm not sure running it through the Yamaha would be ideal though. Not sure if you want to power your speakers from the tube amp or yamaha. Either way you can run the preout of either amp into the input of the other.

For phono though you should just skip the tube amp and buy a decent phono reamp.


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## Ferrum Master (Apr 29, 2018)

I also still do and construct tube amps, for certain tasks. But I am not loving anything, for certain scenarios tube amps are still good, fully agree. Personally I still use them for headphone amplifiers only, as I utilize their inherited pair(second order) harmonic distortion as an asset to fight listening fatigue. I cannot mimic and create something like that using solid state, it is construction wise impossible to emulate that kind of thing, no matter how mosfets are close to the design even. Guitarists are the second area, but that's not the topic this time, there you have the task to achieve most wildly goofy and shitty sound as your main task, the more it distorts the better.

Solid state is a very very vast field. I like the less the better philosophy actually, but each classic design further evolved have their own strengths and flaws, there are not that many of them actually.... just like engines V8 or straight six. Multiple rail, dual current mirrors and most importantly how fast and deep the feedback is. Each of these designs do some sacrifices, it is intended to do so, it is electronics. In early days it was due of the poor element base, nowadays is vice versa what parts are the problem, the parts that were good are unobtainable and no replacement exist (small signal, high Rbe transistors for example, as renesas, KEC, Toshiba, National Semi is really dead in this area(say thanks to Texans, stock up LME49720/LM4562 if you like them, they will be killed)). We cannot expect anything more in certain things to improve the sound, lucky at least the only thing is better now are capacitors. Audio engineering is really a hard area, it is more hard than building PC electronics board as they allow deltas and forgive, have an error budget. Analog audio doesn't have that, it will start to "whistle" and blow out. The high currents, high frequency spectrum, part count makes it a dangerous path, and it is not loved by engineering tutors even and leave it out, people often misjudge it being a good start  for learning, it is not like that actually. The other thing that comes close to it is SMPS, but they are really close... especially now with DSP desgins, just the music is always the same.

Same with old tube amps, after putting side by side the purity of 50ties and 60ties tubes versus the dirty Russians or China(I mean it the elemental tungsten purity this time). Well, it is whole different math, operating points.... and thus sound... I cannot manage to drive them equally and the result is worse, the datasheet doesn't work, the data is wrong. It is such an specific area, without experience it is hard to get an objective idea of this field, the problem is, with years the parts die out it is even more hard to grasp the reality. I would use guitar amp counterparts as some of them are decent still, and 6H3 is not of them here the thing was created for TV's not for audio even Russians themselves didn't put it in audio paths often, they did, but because of the soviet deficit and no parts available at all, they built things with all they had at hand, thus many of their designs seem irrational from engineering stand point, the reason was poverty actually, and now the poverty has turned out to be a fashion trend sometimes and reused. They had a shitpload of them in post nuclear vaults(storage hangars) to build up transmitters so they are still plenty of them as nearly all cities had them, then it was all stolen and they float up somewhere now.

My recommendation is to go cheap really. It won't matter really. 12AX7 (JJ Tesla) at the front... at the end I suggest something like single ended KT88(any they differ a lot even from the same maker), it will show you the boomy and fat tube character as this thing. Those are still popular, that's the main reason. And... pick up used, cheap paper cone speakers with crazy high sensitivity... and pair them with the amp and have a separate setup for tube... like vinyl corner. 

Don't do receivers... those are like screwing with a rubber doll really. WhiteNoise should agree with that. They are made for comfort, lazy people wanting all in one place... in life it doesn't work like that, things consume space and power, you cannot build those things otherwise... unless you sacrifice something. For TV and Cinema it more than enough, music? Nope... I added this because of you idea to add something to the receiver as there is some sort of urge and unhappiness about the sound obviously and try to fix it.


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## John Naylor (Apr 29, 2018)

I remember trying a tube amp back in the later 1970s.  back then, I'd routinely visit local audio stores and wait for some 17 year old kid who just inheroted audio components from his dead uncle and would trade it in for the latest Pioneer Quadrophonic piece of crap.   I got started going in w/ a buddy who bought two old Dynakit tube amps  and a Marantz tube tuner (w/ Oscilloscope)   for $200 during day job's lunch break and before we got back to office, sold the tuner for $950 .... later he got $400 for the two amps.  So when I picked up that tube amp, I figured I'd try it out.

I distinctly remember being unimpressed and used for 6 weeks until I had sold it.  But when I put the old SS amp back in, it grated on my ears.  I actually found it "unlistenable".  Over the years I had many other SS and tube equipment, many of which I had modified (swapping caps and tubes) before re-selling.  Last purchase was a pair of Mesa Boogie triode / pentode amps that I should just pack up and sell as work and family demands had long ago left me with no time to indulge in my former hobby.  Hi end audio is a lot like the monitords... you really can't compre a $300 IPS and a $300 TN for Gaming ... and while most recordings today are designed for the lowest common denominator (read a smartphone w/ a $5 sound substsrem or a boom box), with a quality recording, (i.e. Fiona Apple vocals or Roy Buchanan guitar), there's an asily identifiable difference between hi end tube and SSS components.  Again, not so much going from SS to tube as from tube back to SS.   Again, like (IPS / TN) monitors, I don't find one or the others superior as a class in and of itself ... but I prefer hi end tube over hi end SS


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## Ferrum Master (Apr 29, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> while most recordings today are designed for the lowest common denominator (read a smartphone w/ a $5 sound substsrem or a boom box), with a quality recording, (i.e. Fiona Apple vocals or Roy Buchanan guitar), there's an asily identifiable difference between hi end tube and SSS components.



Oh yes, the modern day idiots that think that they can do a studio at home and record anything. The quality is actually raped versus the old analog days when sound engineers sweat bullets doing their job... now it is all plastic DSP based filter, compressor, and bang... we have a record... Then Sony did his job screwing all the industry with stupid 44.1Hz and spoiling all their tape records, when they were still usable.

Problem is that the trend has poisoned even the big recording studios, the engineers just died out and are replaced with uneducated deaf people not understanding even a bit about the hardware part of the recording. The biggest fact that contributes to it that it has been years that a decent ADC even is produced and used in PRO gear. The PCM4220/CS5381, they are not bad actually, but hey... AK5397EQ is new but when it will enter mainstream recording gear? Never... why spend more on that? Most people are deaf and that's a rule.

If you would ask a modern recording engineer what really is inside his recording gear it will not answer it, why it is important? Because each oh them adds a distinctive layer of distortion that should be tuned down and fought... just as lens correction for DSLR's and everyone and their dog know what it is. And then we have these home recording trends... and these minuscle details that actually should be captured, should be pointed out and thought as a specialist to the musician actually... in the end we have crap.

Okay there is also one trend like Opeth did, they recorded an album in the old Rockfield Studio(imagine Bohemian Rhapsody that was recorded there), they claim that it somehow will do something good capturing the vibe(that's the brainwash)... oh well... the repaired instruments replaced with china tubes totally won't work and you will not achieve the old sound no matter how you try... so naive... the result and the Sorceress record was utter crap sonic wise, well song wise also lol.

But there are exceptions... funny enough I've noticed that afterwards searching up the sound engineers I stumble on the same persons and find the culprit.


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## Bones (Apr 29, 2018)

Sasqui said:


> My $0.02, tube amps are great for nostalgia,  and getting a specific sound for things like live vocals and guitar amps, but for HiFi reproduction of recordings, stick with solid state.  You may have your own reasons for doing what you're doing, so take my advice with a grain of sodium chloride



Reading this made me think of the old Challenger amp I have from about 1954 or so. As far as I know it works BUT I've never had it hooked to a set of speakers since I've had it.

I'll have to grab a few pics of it so you guys will know exactly what I'm talking about.

EDIT:


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## Ferrum Master (Apr 29, 2018)

Ah it looks that it needs a lot of love, it could be that some parts of if are simply rotten already. But is manageable to fix it as long the transformers haven't got moist. If so they will strike through isolation and short cut.


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## Bones (Apr 29, 2018)

It's been in the dry the entire time I've had it. 
I have applied power to it before and all the tubes did light up BUT with the power cord in the condition it's in I'm not going to do that again until I replace it - Looks to be the original cord too. Would need to open it up, clean it/blow it out and replace the cord along with checking for any potential problems. Noted it had at least 3 6L6G tubes in it, didn't get to see what was driving those but will know when I do open it up and may do that today or tomorrow just to have something to do. 
Whether it actually works as in amplifying sound I can't say but maybe one day I'll be able to find out. 

The hookups to it are way different that anything used today.


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## Ferrum Master (Apr 30, 2018)

This thing could have the so called death cap. Do not forget to cut it off... 

US design marvel... put your chassis on mains lol....


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## Bones (Apr 30, 2018)

Proper precautions will be observed, I'm well aware the caps may still have a charge in them and be careful about that.
I've dealt with such things many times including ones that would kill you outright if you didn't discharge them first. Whenever possible I always short the ends together for that reason with every cap I can reach to do it with.

Maybe it's not an old cathode tubed TV but still dangerous enough for me to be viligant. Being that I used to work on anything from 12v to 600v 3-phase high amperage stuff I'm in the habit of assuming it's live/charged.


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## Ferrum Master (May 2, 2018)

Nope, it is not about charged caps and handling device after turning off, it is an old stupid design made by some sort of masochist that turns your chassis charged to the mains voltage.


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## Bones (May 2, 2018)

Gotcha - Way different that I was thinking.


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## Space Lynx (May 3, 2018)

You can build a Starving Student Millet amp like mine for around $90 in parts. You will need a lot of patience though. It sounds better than Lyr 2 ($500 amp) imo. I love mine.


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