# MSI allegedly attempts to pay off a Youtuber not to post a negative review



## biffzinker (Jul 16, 2020)

Techspot said:
			
		

> A YouTuber claims that MSI tried to prevent a negative review by paying them off. If true, this compromises the integrity of a company that in general makes some pretty good hardware and (from our experience) doesn't resort to this kind of behavior. It's unknown at this point if these actions were sanctioned by the company or are the work of a rogue PR employee.











						MSI allegedly attempted to bribe YouTuber to prevent a negative review
					

Many of us rely on product reviews from trusted, independent sources to make informed purchasing decisions. Unfortunately, it seems that some manufacturers (or PR people) aren't willing...




					www.techspot.com
				




Well MSI is off my shopping list for a graphics card, and motherboard in the future.


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## thesmokingman (Jul 16, 2020)

Wow, that is bad. Put some effort into making a better product man, no excuses when you have the most efficient cpu to work with in years, smh.


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## Gmr_Chick (Jul 16, 2020)

If true, MSI is a bunch of spineless A-holes. Almost makes me want to return my 1660s Gaming X card. Almost...


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## freeagent (Jul 16, 2020)

MSi used to be right up there with chaintech, ecs, and pcchips. To me they are still junk, just lipstick on a pig. But I haven't used anything from them in years.. So I could be wrong. ASRock should be in that list too, but I am using one right now..  and its a bit of a beast


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## Mr McC (Jul 16, 2020)

Not a good look, but then again, all the big companies have released an occasional shoddy product that slipped through QA, the issue is more their response, and again, I am sure that all companies have resorted to such underhand behaviour, whether we hear about it or not. For instance, on Monday the "Today's News" on Techpowerup featured a link to the following article that listed the Corsair A500 as the top pick for a cooler in 2020:



			OCC Top 5 PC Coolers For 2020
		


I don't see that as a poor reflection on Techpowerup, I assume that links to articles on other sites is largely an automated process, I only mention it because I find it hard to believe that Overclockers Club were not "persuaded" by Corsair to list that as their number one pick, because the decision is at odds with the opinion of most other tech sites, including this one.

Returning to the issue at hand, I hope this is an isolated occurrence and I am glad that MSI were called out, but I would not go so far as to boycott their entire product line: they produce too much that has been proven to be top quality and as I have tried to suggest, all the big companies engage in similar practices, to a greater or lesser extent.

I praise TechteamGB  for the whistleblowing.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

one idiot in PR doesn't really change the way I look on their trio or tomahawk line.

lol,AMD are in on this
to clarify- they're (allegedly) on the reviewer's side

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283428192506851330


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## biffzinker (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> lol,AMD are in on this





			
				Techspot said:
			
		

> MSI apparently even asked AMD to take down the video (the laptop comes with a Ryzen 4000 series CPU). Fortunately, AMD sided with TechteamGB instead of MSI.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283455507269853185


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

There's got to be more to this story than meets the eye. MSI isn't perfect, but I'm not buying the "bribe" thing.



cucker tarlson said:


> lol,AMD are in on this
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283428192506851330


AMD can't and won't make anyone do that.

Here's the review in question;


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## biffzinker (Jul 16, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> There's got to be more to this story than meets the eye. MSI isn't perfect, but I'm not buying the "bribe" thing.
> 
> 
> AMD can't and won't make anyone do that.
> ...


I was just watching the video, the criticism seems valid, and not unreasonable too me at least.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> AMD can't and won't make anyone do that.


so he's not credible at all then


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

It is by far not the first time that MSI has done strange things like this. Anyone remember the scandals about a official Indian MSI spokesmans statements? This is the x-th time, MSI has done something like this. I don't buy anything from MSI anymore.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> It is by far not the first time that Nvidia has done strange things like this. Anyone remember the scandals about a official Indian MSI spokesmans statements? This is the x-th time, MSI has done something like this. I don't buy anything from MSI anymore.


yes they certainly did pose as amd calling people to take down their ryzen+radeon laptop reviews after the gaming experience was described as stuttering and full of driver related artifacts.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> yes they certainly did pose as amd calling people to take down their ryzen+radeon laptop reviews after the gaming experience was described as stuttering and full of driver related artifacts.


I'm not surprised, and it is very strange how the CEO of MSI has died, the newsline sounded as if he threw himself off a building, but who knows. It is a big scandal. MSI produces many good products, very strange they have to resort to things like this.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> I'm not surprised, and it is very strange how the CEO of MSI has died, the newsline sounded as if he threw himself off a building, but who knows. It is a big scandal. MSI produces many good products, very strange they have to resort to things like this.


seems like he later clarified that amd were on his side.his initial comment was ambiguous.sounded like msi had amd take care of it.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> seems like he later clarified that amd were on his side.his initial comment was ambiguous.sounded like msi had amd take care of it.


I can tell you one thing about AMD: they do not resort to things like this. AMD has to maintain a healthy profile in the market, they do not and can not resort to shady things like this. Much like Nvidia and Intel. The only thing they do, all 3, is post strange reviews or scores (sometimes, not always) when they announce their new products.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> I can tell you one thing about AMD: they do not resort to things like this. AMD has to maintain a healthy profile in the market, they do not and can not resort to shady things like this. Much like Nvidia and Intel. The only thing they do, all 3, is post strange reviews or scores (sometimes, not always) when they announce their new products.


frankly,I wouldn't vouch for what any of the big tech companies do behind the curtain.I don't think any of them put absolute honesty over profit.


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## phill (Jul 16, 2020)

Never really been a fan of MSI products anyways so I guess I'm ok here


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

One time, a 7800 GT I had broke down on me, just before the warranty was over. MSI then sent me a 7900 GT as replacement, but it was dirty and used. After that I didn't bother with the company anymore.


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## the54thvoid (Jul 16, 2020)

Looking at the MSI Duke 2080ti in my PC, thinking, 'Don't listen to the bad men.

I think like all companies - good days, bad days. As for the review issue - I'd like to hear more, see if it wasn't a rogue PR guy trying to pull a fast one, or if it was condoned from the top.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> Looking at the MSI Duke 2080ti in my PC, thinking, 'Don't listen to the bad men.
> 
> I think like all companies - good days, bad days. As for the review issue - I'd like to hear more, see if it wasn't a rogue PR guy trying to pull a fast one, or if it was condoned from the top.


quality product is a quality product.
trash is trash.
PR practices are a separate thing.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> I think like all companies - good days, bad days. As for the review issue - I'd like to hear more, see if it wasn't a rogue PR guy trying to pull a fast one, or if it was condoned from the top.


Normally you are absolutely right, but MSI had now multiple scandals with "rogue PR guys" as you call them. Multiple times with MSI India, then the accident with the CEO, and now this.



> Looking at the MSI Duke 2080ti in my PC, thinking, 'Don't listen to the bad men.


Like I said, they have a lot of good products, and still do shady things like this.


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## Chomiq (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> then the "accident" with the CEO, and now this.


Stay classy.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

Chomiq said:


> Stay classy.


Sorry, not my intention to be insensible to the loss.


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## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

Where are the screenshots or recordings?


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## kapone32 (Jul 16, 2020)

Well at least some of their GPUs run quiet and their AMD motherboards are pretty good too.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Can't say we've (my site and who I work for currently) have run into this over the last 10 years from anyone. When there is something wrong with a product, I reach out (as this dude did) and ask to work it out. If we can't, a fix usually happens or admitting that is the way it should work. Out of the hundreds of reviews I've written or edited and published, we haven't seen this.

I dont buy the msi is shady crap from some of the shoddy evidence posted here, thats for sure.



freeagent said:


> MSi used to be right up there with chaintech, ecs, and pcchips. To me they are still junk, just lipstick on a pig. But I haven't used anything from them in years.. So I could be wrong. ASRock should be in that list too, but I am using one right now..  and its a bit of a beast


MSI was never considered that tier of partner. Sorry.

ASRock also makes some good shiza...and has for a few/several years at this point.

The market is not totay dominated by Asus and Gigabyte.


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## Chomiq (Jul 16, 2020)

Where's the evidence? Does the video include anything like that or is it "I'm going to tell you a story... Don't forget to like share and subscribe!"?


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Chomiq said:


> Where's the evidence? Does the video include anything like that or is it "I'm going to tell you a story... Don't forget to like share and subscribe!"?


Your forgot...

If you dont subscribe right now, all your fortnite skins will disappear.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> I dont buy the msi is shady crap from some of the shoddy evidence posted here, thats for sure.


Sometimes people can't even see the most obvious things, when they simply don't want to. There are countless news sites which reported malbehavior of MSI, also youtubers who worked with MSI. I would say you lack information. Then there are thousands of people who reported bad support practices of MSI. It is rather a fact that MSI is dubious, than it is to be questioned if the company is not. 

As a counter example: Gigabyte was never involved in these dubious things. Neither was Asus or any other similar company, it is just MSI with these sorts of scandals. Things are more than obvious.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> Sometimes people can't even see the most obvious things, when they simply don't want to. There are countless news sites which reported malbehavior of MSI, also youtubers who worked with MSI. I would say you lack information. Then there are thousands of people who reported bad support practices of MSI. It is rather a fact that MSI is dubious, than it is to be questioned if the company is not.
> 
> As a counter example: Gigabyte was never involved in these dubious things. Neither was Asus or any other similar company, it is just MSI with these sorts of scandals. Things are more than obvious.


Let me clarify... i don't think it is a systemic problem within MSI. Shiza happens. Ive had companies ask me not to publish negative things, but never bribed us. 

Edit: I take that back... do you consider it to be bribery to withhold further samples? That has happened in the past...and not with MSI...


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## kapone32 (Jul 16, 2020)

The only thing I know for sure is that I would buy an MSI product before Gigabyte and that is based on experience. I just built a budget system using a Gigabyte Rx 570 and the card would run for about 15 minutes in a game and then shut down. I removed the 6 screws that hold the card together and lo and behold not enough TP on the chip.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Edit: I take that back... do you consider it to be bribery to withhold further samples? That has happened in the past...and not with MSI...


Bribery is always, if someone is giving you something, not if they don't do it. Of course it is shady, and that is exactly why a good reviewer or news site has to be independent, and never accept things. Either that, or he accepts things, and if one company doesn't send things, what then? He has to buy it then. HWUB the youtube channel, does not get things from Asus for example, and had to buy multiple things in the past, does it influence reviews? Yes. Apparently they get items from every important company but not Asus, and that leads them to be more critical with them. That's why i say, independence is very important. Humans are not neutral, they can only try to be as neutral as possible. If someone lays stones in front of you, you don't take it lightly, you will at least notice it.


> Let me clarify... i don't think it is a systemic problem within MSI.


And I think the contrary. My belief is, that MSI is lead by people that let negative things happen because they don't care, or even incenting their co workers to do it. If so much misbehavior is reported about one company, you can downplay it one time, two times, but it happened too often now with MSI.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

We'll agree to disagree. 




kapone32 said:


> The only thing I know for sure is that I would buy an MSI product before Gigabyte and that is based on experience.


Don't let a bad experience scare you off of an entire brand. You've been around here and posted enough to know every single user here has a horror story from [insert brand here] but the reality is quite high that you won't see the same issue.... look at the AMD black screen thing that has plagued Navi since release... it's bad that it still exists after so much time... but is it effecting 2.5 of every 100 which is how many more times normal problems (made up numbers there...note... just trying to say while the issue is real and effects a lot of people, % wise it is very little - but in this case, can be concerning).


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> The only thing I know for sure is that I would buy an MSI product before Gigabyte and that is based on experience. I just built a budget system using a Gigabyte Rx 570 and the card would run for about 15 minutes in a game and then shut down. I removed the 6 screws that hold the card together and lo and behold not enough TP on the chip.


Gigabyte now has a premium sub brand called Aorus, this is where their quality stuff is now, and everything else is possibly sub-par. Just saying.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> Gigabyte now has a premium sub brand called Aorus, this is where their quality stuff is now, and everything else is possibly sub-par. Just saying.


By their marketing... Aorus is a premium _Gaming_ brand of Giga. Like ROG, yep.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> By their marketing... Aorus is a premium _Gaming_ brand of Giga. Like ROG, yep.


Not only that, it is their best stuff now. It is situated a tier above everything they release as Gigabyte. Aorus is the equivalent to ROG or TUF.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> Not only that, it is their best stuff now. It is situated a tier above everything they release as Gigabyte. Aorus is the equivalent to ROG or TUF.


TUF took a dump, bud.... they are now on the low end the last couple of gens.

EDIT: Remember when TUF meant shrouds and armor and more robust power delivery, etc? It isn't that now.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> TUF took a dump, bud.... they are now on the low end the last couple of gens.


Not anymore, I have read numerous reviews about the mainboard I'm using atm, and it was analysed being high quality and having better power stages than everything else at the ~200 € mark, comparable to 250€ boards. @buildzoid did a proper analysis for example, if you are interested.  On the other hand, they released a 5700 XT model which was garbage, but then re-released it, after it was much criticized by various outlets.  This re-release was tested to be good. You could say TUF is a mess, but the quality, at least in these two examples, is good.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

biffzinker said:


> I was just watching the video, the criticism seems valid, and not unreasonable too me at least.


I have no problem with the review. I have a problem with the claims made on twitter. I have a VERY hard time believing that MSI would attempt to bribe anyone(for fear of this kind of crap if nothing else) and I have an equally hard time believing that AMD would be a party to it on any level. I'm calling BS on those claims.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> seems like he later clarified that amd were on his side.his initial comment was ambiguous.sounded like msi had amd take care of it.



tbh thats what it sounded like on the techspot article. It sounded like MSI got AMD involved and tried to make AMD do the dirty work and make the guy take down the review when their bribe failed but AMD sided with the reviewer after watching the review...


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> It sounded like MSI got AMD involved and tried to make AMD do the dirty work and make the guy take down the review when their bribe failed but AMD sided with the reviewer after watching the review...


That sounds so unlikely as to seem absurd(not you personally, just the notion of those events actually taking place). What I think is far more likely is that the Youtuber in question is over-exaggerating to stir the pot, making something out of nothing to get views and channel exposure.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> TUF took a dump, bud.... they are now on the low end the last couple of gens.
> 
> EDIT: Remember when TUF meant shrouds and armor and more robust power delivery, etc? It isn't that now.


he is actually right
aorus is equivalent to rog or tuf
and to strix
it's a gaming brand.and it's anywhere from mid-range to ultra high end.

but yeah,aorus stuff is better than tuf.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> Not anymore, I have read numerous reviews about the mainboard I'm using atm, and it was analysed being high quality and having better power stages than everything else at the ~200 € mark, comparable to 250€ boards. @buildzoid did a proper analysis for example, if you are interested.  On the other hand, they released a 5700 XT model which was garbage, but then re-released it, after it was much criticized by various outlets.  This re-release was tested to be good. You could say TUF is a mess, but the quality, at least in these two examples, is good.


You misiunderstood, I think. _Now_ they are pushed down the product stack than they were a few years ago. Don't mistake more robust VRMs on a platform (X570/B550) a mark of where a specific motherboard stands in the product stack.  Even the low end boards should support 3900x+ and more robust power delivery is required for such support.

Low-end may  be a bit harsh... mid-range at best? I don't know.. either way the TUF brand isn't what it used to be.

EDIT: ROG Maximus, ROG Strix, Prime/TUF, no?








						Asus x570 | Newegg.com
					

Search Newegg.com for Asus x570. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.




					www.newegg.com
				






cucker tarlson said:


> he is actually right
> aorus is equivalent to rog or tuf
> and to strix
> it's a gaming brand.and it's anywhere from mid-range to ultra high end.
> ...


I said exactly that already... 

...or are you supporting me? lol


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> You misiunderstood, I think. _Now_ they are pushed down the product stack than they were a few years ago. Don't mistake more robust VRMs on a platform (X570/B550) a mark of where a specific motherboard stands in the product stack.  Even the low end boards should support 3900x+ and more robust power delivery is required for such support.
> 
> Low-end may  be a bit harsh... mid-range at best? I don't know.. either way the TUF brand isn't what it used to be.
> 
> I said exactly that already...


tuf was pushed down cause the space it occupied was more suitable for fancier looks that don't go well with tuf branding
strix is the new tuf


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> You misiunderstood, I think. Now they are pushed down the product stack then they were a few years ago. Don't mistake more robust VRMs on a platform (X570/B550) a mark of where a specific motherboard stands in the product stack.


You are wrong again. TUF is directly situated under the ROG boards, and directly above the PRIME boards of Asus. As GPU stuff, there is not much and it is second tier again to ROG. And with monitors, it is the second highest as well. They have a great IPS 165 Hz Gsync monitor which is named TUF. I know it is hard for you to be wrong, but that shit can happen when you talk to someone who really knows his stuff.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> You are wrong again. TUF is directly situated under the ROG boards, and directly above the PRIME boards of Asus. As GPU stuff, there is not much and it is second tier again to ROG. And with monitors, it is the second highest as well. They have a great IPS 165 Hz Gsync monitor which is named TUF. I know it is hard for you to be wrong, but that shit can happen when you talk to someone who really knows his stuff.











						Asus x570 | Newegg.com
					

Search Newegg.com for Asus x570. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.




					www.newegg.com
				











						Asus B550 | Newegg.com
					

Search Newegg.com for Asus B550. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.




					www.newegg.com
				











						Asus Z490 | Newegg.com
					

Search Newegg.com for Asus Z490. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.




					www.newegg.com
				




Looks to me that the Prime and TUF boards are the least expensive, no? Sure some Strix mix in, but, my point remains. 

EDIT: Note I'm only talking motherboards... 

Gaming = Strix line... yes. lol. Strix isn't the TUF line though... not at all. TUF was more of a gimmick when it started, really and had one or two boards per chipset. TUF now is just...... mid-range at best.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Asus x570 | Newegg.com
> 
> 
> Search Newegg.com for Asus x570. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.
> ...


Meaningless, we talk about quality here and pricing is different everywhere. TUF as of late, has great quality. End of story.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> no way strix is there


Can you formulate a coherent sentence?


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> You are wrong again.* TUF is directly situated under the ROG boards*, and directly above the PRIME boards of Asus. As GPU stuff, there is not much and it is second tier again to ROG. And with monitors, it is the second highest as well. They have a great IPS 165 Hz Gsync monitor which is named TUF. I know it is hard for you to be wrong, but that shit can happen when you talk to someone who really knows his stuff.


no way,strix is there




Kanan said:


> Meaningless, we talk about quality here and pricing is different everywhere. TUF as of late, has great quality. End of story.











						LGA1200 VRM list
					

400-series  2020-09-05,LGA1200 VRM list by /u/qhfreddy,Thanks to asdkj1740 @OCN for compiling many sources in this thread: <a href="https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel-motherboards/1746916-1440a-madness-z490-vrm-discussion-thread-v2-5-6-5-20-a.html">https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel-mot...




					docs.google.com
				




tuf - B quality vrm and B quality overall.strix's are A/B+
aorus elite is A-quality vrm and A-quality overall


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> no way strix is there


Strix has several boards... it's for 'gaming'. Some are cheap, others cross into the high-end territory.


Kanan said:


> Can you formulate a coherent sentence?


Weren't you banned for quite a while for things like this... let's stick to facts and a discussion instead of throwing out barbs....


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Asus x570 | Newegg.com
> 
> 
> Search Newegg.com for Asus x570. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.
> ...


I dont think you understand the situation at Asus. They have many ROG boards now, and after them, there comes TUF and then PRIME. Really simple. 


cucker tarlson said:


> no way strix is there
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I already said TUF is second after ROG, reading is really hard today it seems.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> I dont think you understand the situation at Asus. They have many ROG boards now, and after them, there comes TUF and then PRIME. Really simple.
> 
> I already said TUF is second after ROG, reading is really hard today it seems.


strix is after rog
tuf is low end/mid range
lower than strix,better than cheap prime p,worse than better prime a

and you're earning yourself another warning from mods


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Strix has several boards... it's for 'gaming'. Some are cheap, others cross into the high-end territory.
> Weren't you banned for quite a while for things like this... let's stick to facts and a discussion instead of throwing out barbs....


You are lucky, you manipulated everyone here into thinking you are a good guy, but exactly now again, you show your real face. Please, I'm way above you, and at least a honest guy and not a delusional troll.



cucker tarlson said:


> strix is after rog
> tuf is low end/mid range
> lower than strix,better than cheap prime p,worse than better prime a
> 
> and you're earning yourself another warning from mods


Wrong. TUF is second now after ROG, like it was before. Read reviews and watch videos, I posted one 5 minutes ago.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> You are lucky, you manipulated everyone here into thinking you are a good guy, but exactly now again, you show your real face. Please, I'm way above you, and at least a honest guy and not a delusional troll.


you're going to talk down to everybody and ignore obvcious facts cause you bought a tuf ?
look at the tier level

tuf is classified as worse quality than strix
doesn't mean it's bad.it's just not as good as more expensive strix.


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> you're going to talk down to everybody and ignore obvcious facts cause you bought a tuf ?
> look at the tier level
> 
> tuf is classified as worse quality than strix
> doesn't mean it's bad.it's just not as good as more expensive strix.


Bullshit, I have said multiple times now in this thread that the reviews showed the board to be good. I bought it because of the reviews not the other way around. Way to switch my words around to please your lies.


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## kapone32 (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> By their marketing... Aorus is a premium _Gaming_ brand of Giga. Like ROG, yep.


 Well I had the X470 Aorus Gaming 7 and that died within 6 months of use with the famous 00 code.


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## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> Bullshit, I have said multiple times now in this thread that the reviews showed the board to be good. I bought it because of the reviews not the other way around. Way to switch my words around to please your lies.


lol,care to read more carefully.
no one said your board is bad.
but strix's are better.

lol,you've got issues.



kapone32 said:


> Well I had the X470 Aorus Gaming 7 and that died within 6 months of use with the famous 00 code.


lol,from rgb overdose judging from the pictures


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## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> lol,care to read more carefully.
> no one said your board is bad.
> but strix's are better.
> 
> lol,you've got issues.


I didn't say anything else. I've said multiple times now here that TUF comes after ROG, what do you think Strixx is?  

This happens when someone without a clue is permitted to do whatever he wants in a forum.


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## Mindweaver (Jul 16, 2020)

Guys, get along or move along.


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## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Well I had the X470 Aorus Gaming 7 and that died within 6 months of use with the famous 00 code.


That sucks. 

But all things have failures.. from the $100 boards to the $1000 boards.


cucker tarlson said:


> lol,care to read more carefully.
> no one said your board is bad.
> but strix's are better.


SOME Strix boards may be better... not all. They have a large lineup....

That said, we're drifting OT here as this is about MSI... so, we'll let the reporting do its work. I digress.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> I didn't say anything else. I've said multiple times now here that TUF comes after ROG, what do you think Strixx is?


yes but rog line is split too.
and it's still not exactly true since Prime-A's are better
only prime-p is worse than tuf


----------



## kapone32 (Jul 16, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Strix has several boards... it's for 'gaming'. Some are cheap, others cross into the high-end territory.
> Weren't you banned for quite a while for things like this... let's stick to facts and a discussion instead of throwing out barbs....


 Earthdog you are absolutely right about TUF. I hearken back to my Asus 990FX TUF which was the most expensive AM3+ board you could buy. The only thing below TUF from Asus is Prime. What some people are not understanding is that the TUF lineup is not new in anyway. What is relatively new is Crosshair has been replaced by Extreme and Strix is considered Extreme minus the extras you would pay for a premium board. In terms of VRM quality I think people are also forgetting that most VRMS are overkill for today's CPUs. I was able to OC the 3300X and 3100X to 4.5 GHZ using a Prime B450 board. Back on topic though my favourite X399 board was MSI Pro Carbon and the TwinFrzor GPU cooler is one of the quietest and best performing dual fan coolers I have used. I do not have any illusions that MSI is not run by humans capable of making mistakes but I find it dubious that that review pales in comparison to some from Gamers Nexus and Hardware Unboxed.


----------



## Mindweaver (Jul 16, 2020)

Guys, drop it. I don't want to see anymore back and forth over who knows more or thinks they do. I'm not asking again. This is the last warning, stay on topic, or move on.


----------



## Frick (Jul 16, 2020)

I'll happily take money from them to not do negative reviews.


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## Bones (Jul 16, 2020)

Any brand can be either good or bad at the time something is reviewed. Any model within a brand's lineup can be the same way.

Example:
I do not have a favorable view overall of MSI due to past issues which have been long proven as fact, namely with the FX790 and 890 AMD boards dying of blatant VRM deaths all over the place. MSI tried to play it off as nothing but nothing quickly piled up to alot of something and didn't help at the time they were using the lowest quality possible components too (Nikos) for VRMs and so on.

However there is also the very real thing about a make becoming better, ASRock was one considered middle to getting towards the low at first but now they are clearly "Up there" with the rest. Can't say their customer service is all that but at least the overall quality of their boards did improve noteably from then up until now.

I can't say by how much or state the exact models within the MSI lineup have improved but a few have. I recently purchased an X570 MEG ACE and so far it's been a really good board but realize it's only one model out of the entire lineup - It certainly doesn't mean MSI has bumped things up across the board.

Now you have the allegation of them bribing someone not to release a critical review. That still needs to be proven as fact but with history as it is concerning MSI I'd have to say it's plausible.... Not that's it fact but certainly possible like it is for all the rest.


----------



## freeagent (Jul 16, 2020)

I just saw someone say Asus mobos were shit. The ASRock I’m using now is my first non Asus board since x58 was new lol. I was floored. But then I think of my recently deceased p8z77v. Maybe he was on to something. Or maybe that’s just the way the cookie crumbles? Not everything a manufacturer makes is going to be awesome. Up until l recently I would have never considered an Assrock, but I’ve got one now and kind of like it. I’m still going to call it Assrock though. Because I think it’s funny. But it’s still better then the Asus it replaces..


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jul 16, 2020)

Bones said:


> Any brand can be either good or bad at the time something is reviewed. Any model within a brand's lineup can be the same way.
> 
> Example:
> I do not have a favorable view overall of MSI due to past issues which have been long proven as fact, namely with the FX790 and 890 AMD boards dying of blatant VRM deaths all over the place. MSI tried to play it off as nothing but nothing quickly piled up to alot of something and didn't help at the time they were using the lowest quality possible components too (Nikos) for VRMs and so on.
> ...


exactly.per case scenario.


----------



## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

freeagent said:


> I just saw someone say Asus mobos were shit. The ASRock I’m using now is my first non Asus board since x58 was new lol. I was floored. But then I think of my recently deceased p8z77v. Maybe he was on to something. Or maybe that’s just the way the cookie crumbles? Not everything a manufacturer makes is going to be awesome. Up until l recently I would have never considered an Assrock, but I’ve got one now and kind of like it. I’m still going to call it Assrock though. Because I think it’s funny. But it’s still better then the Asus it replaces..


Asus, in my experience is by far the steadiest and also oldest of the manufacturers. Of course they are not perfect. But I had many Asus boards now and they were all great so far. I also had MSI and Gigabyte. All good. But I won't support a brand, which is in shady businesses. As simple as that.


----------



## kapone32 (Jul 16, 2020)

I cannot believe how people are hating on MSI after the post about their CEO dying brought nothing but praise. In terms of one mistake no more purchase would have killed every company in the space. If this was 2009  would not in anyway recommend As Rock. As I have stated before I have never had any issues with MSI products and talking about MSI laptops my friend at the computer store told me that he would always pick MSI before Asus due to build quality.


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## Bones (Jul 16, 2020)

Unfortunately _they all_ play the game - It's just a matter of who gets caught and who's smart enough to avoid it.

No company is innocent - It's business and that takes care of itself by whatever means..... Legal, illegal, ethical, unethical or however it wants and they already know the risks of it.
Since we are not the CEO's CFO's UFO's, F-U's or anything about that we have no direct say on the board of directors and our opinions only amount to that and nothing else.

However _as customers_ we do have the power of our wallet and that vote when cast is powerful.
It's just too bad it's rare to see so many wallets all "Vote" the same way or things would certainly be better overall.


----------



## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Bones said:


> Unfortunately _they all_ play the game - It's just a matter of who gets caught and who's smart enough to avoid it.
> 
> No company is innocent - It's business and that takes care of itself by whatever means..... Legal, illegal, ethical, unethical or however it wants and they already know the risks of it.
> Since we are not the CEO's CFO's UFO's, F-U's or anything about that we have no direct say on the board of directors and our opinions only amount to that and nothing else.
> ...


Another great point, bones... If anyone thinks any of these companies are looking out for our best interests, have someone kindly help that someone remove their head from the sand.

Being a reviewer, I've had bad experiences with every partner and every kind of part at some point in this career. Nobody is immune from failure. I understand how personal experiences can affect thinking, but more critical thought should yield statistics and math that X likely won't happen to you.

RE: your last line... that is the thing... if a product is bad 10% of the time (which is a lot). 90% of people will be happy... its tough to do that.

Shady companies are all around us, no doubt.... oh the stories I could tell................................................


----------



## Kanan (Jul 16, 2020)

Bones said:


> Unfortunately _they all_ play the game - It's just a matter of who gets caught and who's smart enough to avoid it.
> 
> No company is innocent - It's business and that takes care of itself by whatever means..... Legal, illegal, ethical, unethical or however it wants and they already know the risks of it.
> Since we are not the CEO's CFO's UFO's, F-U's or anything about that we have no direct say on the board of directors and our opinions only amount to that and nothing else.
> ...


We live in a shady world, it is a fact. And I believe Covid is a matter of bad karma. Still, MSI is the worst, won't buy it. It is not like anything you told me is new, but of course you're right. I didn't say anywhere that Asus etc are innocent, to the contrary, I told the example of Asus and HWUB. I will just prefer "more innocent" companies. It is simple.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jul 16, 2020)

Reply bans issued. Glad to hand out more.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> Reply bans issued. Glad to hand out more.


Thank You.



Bones said:


> No company is innocent - It's business and that takes care of itself by whatever means..... Legal, illegal, ethical, unethical or however it wants and they already know the risks of it.
> Since we are not the CEO's CFO's UFO's, F-U's or anything about that we have no direct say on the board of directors and our opinions only amount to that and nothing else.


This is true, no company is perfect and the reason is simple, they all have human beings running them.

Point of all of this is not whether or not a company is innocent, but whether or not we want to believe that market leaders like AMD and MSI would effort such detestable shenanigans. I'm not willing to accept these claims at face value. Evidence, such as unaltered emails and the like, are required. Until that happens, it is little more than hear-say, which is not evidence.


----------



## EarthDog (Jul 16, 2020)

Every company has their issues... and I understand perception if something bad happened to a user... but I need proof too. Would it surprise if it is true? A little... 

Would it surprise me if this is one PR manager (i.e a rogue marketing guy) who said it... not in the least.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 16, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> I cannot believe how people are *hating on MSI after the post about their CEO dying* brought nothing but praise. In terms of one mistake no more purchase would have killed every company in the space. If this was 2009  would not in anyway recommend As Rock. As I have stated before I have never had any issues with MSI products and talking about MSI laptops my friend at the computer store told me that he would always pick MSI before Asus due to build quality.


Hi,
He committed suicide or got thrown off a building I'd hardly call that dying 

Dying insinuates he had a half a chance of recovery 
He was dead milliseconds after the abrupt stop


----------



## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

4 pages of posts, lots of articles and threads on the Internet. But so far, 0 evidence provided to support this claim.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Jul 16, 2020)

Chomiq said:


> Where's the evidence?


I agree. This is all hearsay at best. 

I don't believe a genuine MSI official offered anyone a bribe. "IF" it happened at all, it more likely was some low-level marketing/PR weenie working on his or her own behalf, or maybe even a sales rep who works on commission.


----------



## thesmokingman (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> 4 pages of posts, lots of articles and threads on the Internet. But so far, 0 evidence provided to support this claim.



MSI's lack of a rebuttal speaks volumes. The reviewer is backed by AMD. That clearly puts pressure on MSI in the case that they do try to deny the claim made against them.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> MSI's lack of a rebuttal speaks volumes.


No it doesn't. It says exactly nothing.


thesmokingman said:


> The reviewer is backed by AMD.


Says the reviewer. A statement from AMD has not(yet) been made.


thesmokingman said:


> That clearly puts pressure on MSI in the case that they do try to deny the claim made against them.


It does not. The burden of proof is on the youtuber who made the claim.


----------



## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

Can be a PR agent, of a PR agency, of a PR agency.

Without screenshots/recordings this is just a rumor. Another UFO sighting.


----------



## thesmokingman (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> Can be a PR agent, of a PR agency, of a PR agency. Without screenshots/recordings this is just a rumor.



Are you MSI's lawyer or something? It is what it is. You can keep denying it, that's your prerogative.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Jul 16, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> It is what it is.


No it isn't. Just because one person says someone else said something, that does NOT make it a fact!


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> Are you MSI's lawyer or something? It is what it is. You can keep denying it, that's your prerogative.


No, there is only one person making the claims, without any evidence to support such claims. That is not "prerogative".


----------



## kapone32 (Jul 16, 2020)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> He committed suicide or got thrown off a building I'd hardly call that dying
> 
> Dying insinuates he had a half a chance of recovery
> He was dead milliseconds after the abrupt stop


 Dying is used in the past tense regardless of circumstance. It is purely conjecture to use words like suicide. Unless we were right there we don't know. For all we know it could be the Chinese Government but that statement has no evidence so it would not be something to say either.


----------



## milewski1015 (Jul 16, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> No it isn't. Just because one person says someone else said something, that does NOT make it a fact!


Signature checks out: "You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Do NOT assume what you think to be true, is true. Or what was true in the past, still is. Do your homework. Verify your facts. Then post."


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jul 16, 2020)

I dont understand the point of review samples if youre not allowed to give negative feedback. That is supposed to be the point to try and improve a product. Why make everyone say good things about something that is shit? That just gives a bad rep for the reviewer and the company that made the product.


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## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> I dont understand the point of review samples if youre not allowed to give negative feedback. That is supposed to be the point to try and improve a product. Why make everyone say good things about something that is shit? That just gives a bad rep for the reviewer and the company that made the product.





The company hands over a free unit and pay for international shipping. They expect something in return. If you trash their product, don't expect to get any more samples.

All hardware reviewers are on a leash.

Best thing is to buy the products then you don't owe anyone anything. But that's impossible for 0-day products.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> The company hands over a free unit and pay for international shipping. They expect something in return. If you trash their product, don't expect to get any more samples.


You just illustrated the problem with many reviews - "_The company hands over a free unit_". Who's to say that "free unit" was not specifically cherry picked to shine beautifully in the reviews? Plus, is the review of one sample unit a fair review? I say, "no". The more samples, the more accurate the review. 

As far as expecting something in return, I do believe most, not all of course, but most expect a "fair", unbiased review. 


> All hardware reviewers are on a leash.


That is definitely NOT true. Consumer Reports, for example, buy their review samples (as in more than one unit) from Walmart, Amazon, BestBuy, etc. just as you and I would. They do not accept review samples directly from the manufacturer.


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## sneekypeet (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> If you take a girl on a date, you expect something in return by the end of the night.
> 
> The company hands over a free unit and pay for international shipping. They expect something in return. If you trash their product, don't expect to get any more samples.
> 
> ...



Depends on the site (Alexa rating/traffic) to be honest. While they do expect good things in return, you cannot ask a reviewer to gloss over glaring issues.
Even bad press is press, it gets your name into minds! Six months from now, you will still have that name in your head, but you may have forgotten why....win-win.

@Bill_Bright  Not all samples come from the factory. In instances like motherboards, CPUs, GPUs, and systems, sure. But even then, nine out of ten times it is sealed in the box, not that they couldn't reseal a box, but since it is peeled for images, why bother. Many samples of what I cover come from retail channels the maker has partnerships with.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> The company hands over a free unit and pay for international shipping. They expect something in return. If you trash their product, don't expect to get any more samples.
> 
> All hardware reviewers are on a leash.
> 
> Best thing is to buy the products then you don't owe anyone anything. But that's impossible for 0-day products.


Thats just bullshit. The point of a review sample should include both positive and negatives. Otherwise there is no benefit to the consumer. LTT does this and so do other reviewers and they dont get bit in the ass when posting something negative.


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## Assimilator (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> The company hands over a free unit and pay for international shipping. They expect something in return. If you trash their product, don't expect to get any more samples.



The only thing they should expect is an unbiased review. If that's negative, so be it, it's not like every product every company produces is solid gold.

Any company that blacklists a reviewer because of a negative review is a company with idiots as staff, and I don't particularly want to buy products from idiots. Any reviewer that gets blacklisted for posting a negative review should call out the company in question on as many social media channels as possible, to discourage them from continuing to do the same stupid shit.

Until or unless reviewers, small and large, start pushing back against these abusive practices (and that goes for other industries too), the situation won't get better.


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## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> Thats just bullshit. The point of a review sample should include both positive and negatives. Otherwise there is no benefit to the consumer. LTT does this and so do other reviewers and they dont get bit in the ass when posting something negative.



LTT is a famous YouTube channel with 11 million subscribers and probably enough money to buy all samples.



sneekypeet said:


> Depends on the site (Alexa rating/traffic) to be honest. While they do expect good things in return, you cannot ask a reviewer to gloss over glaring issues.
> Even bad press is press, it gets your name into minds! Six months from now, you will still have that name in your head, but you may have forgotten why....win-win.
> 
> @Bill_Bright  Not all samples come from the factory. In instances like motherboards, CPUs, GPUs, and systems, sure. But even then, nine out of ten times it is sealed in the box, not that they couldn't reseal a box, but since it is peeled for images, why bother. Many samples of what I cover come from retail channels the maker has partnerships with.



Positive or negative exposure is still exposure.

I stopped reading hardware reviews because all review sites sound too "politically correct" for my taste.

I expect some trashing/flaming there and then for the LOLs.

I look at users' reviews on Amazon when I need feedback for a product.



Assimilator said:


> The only thing they should expect is an unbiased review. If that's negative, so be it, it's not like every product every company produces is solid gold.



Put yourself in their shoes. Would you support someome who says that you and your product suck?


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## sneekypeet (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> LTT is a famous YouTube channel with 11 million subscribers and probably enough money to buy all samples.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can only speak for myself, but if I see a shitbox, I call it such. I had a review years ago with a page titled "The Failure Continues!"

In my experience, I get samples, and if I trash them, I get a reply like (not quoting here, summarizing)  thanks for all of the points you made, we will look into this when releasing our next product. Next thing I know, they ask if I want to see something else they make. Of course, we have a good rating for the site I'm with, which helps keep manufacturers from pulling anything funny, as they need us as much as we need them to exist.

Amazon reviews: you mean where a company sends a free sample to a user to post on Amazon.....Common practice!


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## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

Amazon tags reviews with "Verified Purchase", but hey, a company can buy their own product and then write a review.

Your review is still too polite. VGA cooler that doesn't fit on any card?! I'd say whoever designed that product deserves to be electrocuted in the shower.


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## sneekypeet (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> Amazon tags reviews with "Verified Purchase", but hey, a company can buy their own product and then write a review.
> 
> Your review is still too polite. VGA cooler that doesn't fit on any card?! I'd say whoever designed that product deserves to be electrocuted in the shower.



I cannot say you are wrong, but that review resulted in the rest of the world getting a V2 cooler, and not dealing with what I had to go through. So a bad review played well for both sides of the coin. We got traffic for it, the company reacted properly and did not take a hit.

I do not believe I said the cooler would not fit any card, just that it was designed to fit my GTX 470, which it obviously did not. It also goes to show the lengths a reviewer will go through to have to solve an issue. In that instance, I had to chat with my boss, the manufacturer, and even Nvidia so that I had all my ducks in a row to publish my findings.


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 16, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> Many samples of what I cover come from retail channels the maker has partnerships with.


Yeah, that's good to know. That goes a really long way in removing the possibility of, or even the appearance of any impropriety thus ensuring the integrity of TPU reviews! 


sneekypeet said:


> In my experience, I get samples, and if I trash them, I get a reply like (not quoting here, summarizing) thanks for all of the points you made, we will look into this when releasing our next product. Next thing I know, they ask if I want to see something else they make.


Yeah, I used to do evaluations of products we were considering purchasing when we were standing up the Wide Area Network for the Air Force Base here. And while all reviews and evaluations were never available for public consideration, we always shared them with the manufacturers. And as you said, they typically were appreciative of our honest critique and very often our suggestions were put in the next revisions. 

HOWEVER, I think much of that depends on the reputation of the reviewers. As government reviewers prepared to spend taxpayer's dollars, no bias or preferential treatments were ever tolerated (***). I believe the same can be said for TPU. But there are some review sites that clearly demonstrate a preference for one brand, or a biased against another. That's pretty obvious to the makers, and those who do professional reviews. But sadly, it can tarnish all review sites with the less informed. 

And then there are so called review sites that simply repeat (often verbatim) the marketing "fluff" provided by the manufacturers. Those are about as reliable as many "user reviews". 

*** I say that as the technical reviewers - not as the one's making the actual purchases. Sadly, there were times we would recommend the AF buy Brand A but they went with Brand B for reasons beyond our understanding or knowledge. All I can say is, I never recommended buying a $600 hammer!


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## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> I cannot say you are wrong, but that review resulted in the rest of the world getting a V2 cooler, and not dealing with what I had to go through. So a bad review played well for both sides of the coin. We got traffic for it, the company reacted properly and did not take a hit.
> 
> I do not believe I said the cooler would not fit any card, just that it was designed to fit my GTX 470, which it obviously did not. It also goes to show the lengths a reviewer will go through to have to solve an issue. In that instance, I had to chat with my boss, the manufacturer, and even Nvidia so that I had all my ducks in a row to publish my findings.



Actually when I think about it, your review was a bit unfair.

GELID was founded after one of the owners of Arctic Cooling took over the company. The same guy was also the main engineer. The other partners left and started their own company. That cooler was one of their first products... expected to fail given the circumstances.


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## sneekypeet (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> Actually when I think about it, your review was a bit unfair.
> 
> GELID was founded after one of the owners of Arctic Cooling took over the company. The same guy was also the main engineer. The other partners left and started their own company. That cooler was one of their first products... expected to fail given the circumstances.



If the product makes it to retail, first or last product of any company, if they expect you to pay for it, it needs to work for whatever it is said to work with. Otherwise it falls into false advertising, which is a whole other topic.


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## Regeneration (Jul 16, 2020)

GELID founders are actually really nice guys. They'll send samples even if you trash the product, or won't publish a review at all . No blacklists and no discrimination. If anyone deserves a break it's them. If I remember correctly, the takeover was full of drama and insanity. Even the police was involved.


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## moproblems99 (Jul 16, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> gaming brand



Gaming brand = sucker.

Edit: In most cases.


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## sneekypeet (Jul 16, 2020)

Regeneration said:


> GELID founders are actually really nice guys. They'll send samples even if you trash the product, or won't publish a review at all . No blacklists and no discrimination. If anyone deserves a break it's them. If I remember correctly, the takeover was full of drama and insanity. Even the police was involved.



So because a company is full of nice guys, I'm supposed to not berate the product due to that? I do not see where leeway should be given to a review due to hardships or personalities.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Jul 16, 2020)

i think msi had a compo to see who can make the worst lappy, i like MSI kit but ill be keeping my GP72MVR Leopard Pro a while longer its got better performance and its 2 n half years old. good to see that guy telling its going to stop some folks a lot of disspointment .


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## moproblems99 (Jul 16, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> I don't believe a genuine MSI official offered anyone a bribe. "IF" it happened at all, it more likely was some low-level marketing/PR weenie working on his or her own behalf, or maybe even a sales rep who works on commission.



This reminds me of a news article some time back that many prominent members swore that anyone that worked at MSI could speak for the company in an official manner....(no accusations here).


Edit: here we go.  Not a bad example: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...n-300-series-motherboards.254669/post-4031773


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## Fouquin (Jul 16, 2020)

lexluthermiester said:


> That sounds so unlikely as to seem absurd(not you personally, just the notion of those events actually taking place). What I think is far more likely is that the Youtuber in question is over-exaggerating to stir the pot, making something out of nothing to get views and channel exposure.



I've collaborated with Andrew on reviews in the past. He's not one that strikes me as being out to get quick views and exposure by any means possible. During the Ryzen launch we noticed OC numbers weren't matching and reran a bunch of tests, even getting Wendell from L1T involved to corroborate. Andrew was very keen on making sure variables were retested for accuracy before posting anything. 

My judgement of his character could be wrong, but we need more information to draw any conclusions at this point.


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## neatfeatguy (Jul 16, 2020)

Social Media - where the accused is judged as guilty by people before any kind of facts are provided to prove if the accused is guilty or not.

We are no longer the land of "Innocent until proven guilty." We let stupidity and social media ruin the lives of people and companies before any facts are provided or even before any intelligent thoughts are shared.


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## milewski1015 (Jul 16, 2020)

neatfeatguy said:


> Social Media - where the accused is judged as guilty by people before any kind of facts are provided to prove if the accused is guilty or not.
> 
> We are no longer the land of "Innocent until proven guilty." We let stupidity and social media ruin the lives of people and companies before any facts are provided or even before any intelligent thoughts are shared.


Stupidity and social media will take you quite far these days apparently 

Wouldn't call myself a literature buff by any means, but I feel like as time goes on, Bukowski's "Dinoasuria, We" becomes more and more probable.




__





						Literary Analysis of "Dinosauria, We"
					

Dinosauria, We       Born like this  Into this  As the chalk faces smile  As Mrs. Death laughs  As the elev...




					psuedobukowski.blogspot.com


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## kiriakost (Jul 16, 2020)

Kanan said:


> Asus, in my experience is by far the steadiest and also oldest of the manufacturers. Of course they are not perfect. But I had many Asus boards now and they were all great so far. I also had MSI and Gigabyte. All good. But I won't support a brand, which is in shady businesses. As simple as that.


I have identical experiences , ASUS seems having also the steadiest CEO president among with chairman's team, this translates to mature decisions making.
MSI replaced the CEO few months ago, the new CEO he had a strange accident and he is now dead.
What the people are unable to see this is the ethical quality of the people (management) which making money from the MSI logo.

From personal experiences I will say that when the management this is Made in Taiwan  (born in Taiwan) , then there is much more honesty within it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2020)

Fouquin said:


> I've collaborated with Andrew on reviews in the past. He's not one that strikes me as being out to get quick views and exposure by any means possible. During the Ryzen launch we noticed OC numbers weren't matching and reran a bunch of tests, even getting Wendell from L1T involved to corroborate. Andrew was very keen on making sure variables were retested for accuracy before posting anything.
> 
> My judgement of his character could be wrong, but we need more information to draw any conclusions at this point.


Ok, let's presume that you're right. The next question we need to ask is could this a be a culture/language barrier thing and a wild misunderstanding?


----------



## Regeneration (Jul 17, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> So because a company is full of nice guys, I'm supposed to not berate the product due to that? I do not see where leeway should be given to a review due to hardships or personalities.



That, the extreme difficulty designing a universal VGA cooler, and the GELID-Arctic soap opera. I remember reading that some people were banned from the workplace. One guy brought his mother to work. Really crazy stuff... things you don't see often in the industry.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Jul 17, 2020)

Heres a 3rd party perspective from someone who reached out to the youtuber. This guy forwarded him messages & whatever screenshots of the interactions to hardware unboxed so its pretty safe to say it happened.










I guess MSI and AMD held back from commenting or responding to the accusations because MSI didnt know if he would be brave enough to speak out about it and for AMD - Its not their problem. it wasnt their fight to begin with.

Now the news is out there and its been confirmed. MSI are going to have to issue a response and yeah they are probably gonna blame it on some PR guy or PR agency they hired to do their promotions etc etc so therefore its not actually them that did the dirty business. Either way not a very good look for MSI


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 17, 2020)

Hi,
If it gets too sticky msi might just charge people for using msi afterburner


----------



## Bill_Bright (Jul 17, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> This reminds me of a news article some time back that many prominent members swore that anyone that worked at MSI could speak for the company in an official manner....(no accusations here).


Show us an official MSI statement posted on MSI's website, then I'll believe it. For now, NO WAY do I believe any and every  MSI employee can "speak for the company" in any manner, official or unofficial. Period. 

There is a HUGE difference between "representing" a company and being a company "spokesperson". If you are their PR person, or one of their executives, then you can speak for the company. 

But if you simply wear a badge or uniform, then you may "represent" the company but you don't "speak" for them - other than what the company tells you you allowed to say. 

For example, when I was in the Air Force, if I stopped off at the grocery store when I got off-duty, I was "representing" the Air Force. And if my uniform was a wrinkled, dirty mess, that would reflect poor on the Air Force (and I could actually have gotten in trouble if reported). But if my uniform looked "sharp", pressed, clean, and my "gig line" was straight, I was making a good impression and representing the Air Force in a good manner. But I still could not "speak" for it.


----------



## Bones (Jul 17, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> Show us an official MSI statement posted on MSI's website, then I'll believe it. For now, NO WAY do I believe any and every  MSI employee can "speak for the company" in any manner, official or unofficial. Period.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between "representing" a company and being a company "spokesperson". If you are their PR person, or one of their executives, then you can speak for the company.
> 
> ...


This. 

If you have the authority to speak for them that's one thing, if not it's another but in either case the fact if you are associated with them, you do represent them and that does carry a measure of responsibility. 
That responsibility in itself does carry consequense and if it's true in this case I'd have to imagine someone's backside is gonna burn over it whether they have actual authority to speak on their behalf or not. Only thing I can say as an absolute truth about it is it wasn't me.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 17, 2020)

I like what Jay has to say on the subject;


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 17, 2020)

The only MSI laptops I have encountered have been awful. Cheap, nasty plastics that cracked - not from impact, but fatigue cracks in the garbage-tier plastics that slowly grew over the course of a few months of opening and closing the screen. Nasty materials and stiff, low-quality hinges sealed the deal there. My lesson? MSI's plastics are too cheap.

The next one was plagued by faulty drivers. Removing all of the MSI software stack and replacing with generic drivers solved the issue. This time, the lesson was that MSI can't do software. I have a low opinion of the Killer NIC software stack, and that was one of the culprits, but can't excuse MSI because the killer NIC was only one of three misbehaving drivers.

Finally, my most recent MSI laptop experiece was one of overheating. Too much TDP and not enough cooling. Throttled when new, throttled worse as the dust built up, eventually died to heat-stress cycles as it yo-yo'd between 40C and 100C every time windows did something in the background. My lesson that time was that MSI laptops run too hot.

I only bought the first one with my own money and the second and third failures just cemented my opinion on MSI laptops; All about the looks but not really designed to live with, or to last.


----------



## Fouquin (Aug 1, 2020)

Steve throwing in his own experiences with MSI to add to Andrew's recent experience. Includes conversations with MSI from both parties.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Aug 1, 2020)

No more MSI parts for me then it seems


----------



## TheLostSwede (Aug 1, 2020)

Well, a local Gigabyte rep tried to bribe me many many moons ago, to make sure Gigabyte won a motherboard group test (when they were still a thing) in the magazine I worked for at the time. I simply went and told my editor, as if you're going to work as a "journalist" you need to have some kind of morals or you might as well just do paid for reviews in the first place.

I mean, a lot of companies does just this, especially in SE Asia and India, but the paid for content is being disguised as reviews, since nowhere does it say that it's paid for content.

Having started out at a magazine back in what could only be called as the good old days when it comes to reviewers and writers getting paid at least half decent money for the content they produced, but today it's not the case. People are happy to earn $10 for a news post or $100 for a review. That's simply not something you can live on, so I'm also not surprised that many people accept some extra money for skewing a review in favour of the company.

Then again, the industry as a whole shot itself in the foot when online advertising took off, it was a race to the bottom. Magazines used to charge $20-30k for a full page ad. Suddenly all these new tech websites appear and they charge $500 a month for a banner ad. Where do you think the companies put heir ad money? Sadly it's hard to go up from there...


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## robot zombie (Aug 1, 2020)

It's funny... and I can't place it, but for me MSI has always been that often makes decent to very good products, usually a slightly better value... and yet whenever I've been working up a build or looking at upgrades, for myself or anyone else, they've never been on my radar. I've never really known why. Just is.

If this is really all true (and it honestly never sounded that out there to me, regardless,) then they were already hurting themselves anyway. We can talk good optics/bad optics all day. But those are general impressions, which of course influences purchases. But ultimately good customers don't come back when they have bad experiences. So you can play the image game all day, but if the product/service is leading people to have bad experiences, you will have to work harder to keep what you gain over what you lose. It's damaging to your business. Doesn't matter if people know about it. They'll know when they buy, and then never come back. And you'll know when the margins aren't where they should be... and then you'll scramble to boost your image in order to draw in more new customers who won't come back.

It's a vicious cycle. Spending money to look better may work initially and seem much cheaper, but spending money to be better is an investment. But that's a dirty word these days. This idea of investing in a future of any sort. It's always now or never. I think it's foolish, but then maybe that's why I don't own a business.


----------



## hat (Aug 1, 2020)

As far as I know, I've only ever had one MSI product: my old H67 motherboard. It was fine, but it was also a no-frills H67 board. I've overclocked on ASUS, Gigabyte, Biostar, and even DFI motherboards. To me, the end result was always similar... except the Biostar board I blew up, but that was my own fault for trying to overclock a then power hungry quad core on a cheap budget board with crappy power circuitry. 

Nobody is in this business, or any business, to play nice. If you look, I'm sure you'll find that they all did something shitty at some point. If you want computer parts that come from a good, clean place... you'll probably have to start by mining raw materials yourself.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Aug 1, 2020)

I should mention that I have also worked for MSI in the past, albeit at one of their "foreign" offices. The company culture is shite. One of the big bosses came over from Taiwan to have one on ones with everyone in the office. My colleague comes out bawling her eyes out. Turns out he ripper her a new one for no apparent reason and told her that she was shit at her job. That's not really how you treat your staff, regardless of how good or poorly they do their job. I mean, she was pretty clueless about tech, but didn't do a bad job otherwise. Besides, they hired me to do the tech part, so not sure what the problem was...

They were and maybe still are crap at maths. This was around the time when AMD launched the Opteron. Lady from HQ comes over to go visit potential customers for their new dual socket Opteron board, quite an expensive product for what it was. We visit a few places and finally end up at a company where I know the owner quite well for having reviewed their systems in the past. He says he's not too keen on MSI due to poor experiences in the past, but because it's me, they want to buy a sample order of five boards and if they're good, they'll buy 10 or so boards a month. Get back to the office and I get told that the quantity sin't high enough...
The funny thing here, they were selling a bottom tier board to a different customer at lots of 100 boards a month, that made them exactly the same amount of money as selling 10 of the Opteron boards a month would've made them... c'est la vie...

I guess it's a good thing I didn't work there for too long. It's funny, this seems to be a reoccurring theme for me when it comes to working for Taiwanese companies, it never seems to last longer than about six months and I don't think it's me...

The sad thing is that there's a lot of really good people in the industry in Taiwan, but most of them are underappreciated and overworked. They're also rarely listened to and they tend to be bypassed when its time for a promotion, so in the end they leave and go and do something entirely different. The tech industry is far worse off because of it.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Aug 1, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> The sad thing is that there's a lot of really good people in the industry in Taiwan, but most of them are underappreciated and overworked. They're also rarely listened to and they tend to be bypassed when its time for a promotion, so in the end they leave and go and do something entirely different. The tech industry is far worse off because of it.


That attitude is why I have no problem watching Intel self-destruct, and do not care for other "too big to fail" market leaders much either. Once a company reaches a certain size it usually loses the "let's make cool things that people will want" ethos and turns into "how can we maximise our share value" business that does questionable things to hurt the industry as a whole.


----------



## Kissamies (Aug 1, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Gaming brand = sucker.
> 
> Edit: In most cases.


These days it's pretty hard to get high end hardware without any stupid gaming branding.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 1, 2020)

Fascinating how all the "where is the evidence, all we have seen is a few claims with no backing" people seemed to disappear once this was corroborated by other (highly trustworthy) sources.

I've never bought an MSI product (they just never seem to fit my wants, always seem to be either too much or too little of something), and this definitely isn't making that any more likely in the future. Sounds like the company culture needs a scrubbing. Preferably with the kind of detergent that's effective at removing bad managers and executives.


----------



## thesmokingman (Aug 1, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Fascinating how all the "where is the evidence, all we have seen is a few claims with no backing" people seemed to disappear once this was corroborated by other (highly trustworthy) sources.
> 
> I've never bought an MSI product (they just never seem to fit my wants, always seem to be either too much or too little of something), and this definitely isn't making that any more likely in the future. Sounds like the company culture needs a scrubbing. Preferably with the kind of detergent that's effective at removing bad managers and executives.



What's even more ridiculous is that those wannabe lawyers act like this type of shit doesn't happen everyday. And then as you wrote when the proof comes out corroborated by peers, they go silent. It's really insane that these companies threaten reviewers regularly. smh


----------



## Hardcore Games (Aug 1, 2020)

I am of the opinion that a laptop and gaming do not mix. For that reason I use a thin laptop for field work and the desktop at the shop for gaming.

Thermal management in a laptop is an exercise in futility


----------



## storm-chaser (Aug 1, 2020)

The MSI RX 5700 XT Gaming X is totally sick. No doubt about it, it's one of the best GPUs on the market at this time.

-It runs cooler than any other 5700 XT
-It runs quieter than any other 5700 XT
-This is nearly impossible, to combine both attributes listed above
-The backplate is lukewarm, never really gets higher than 90*F (even after heavy gaming)

For example, the backplate on my RX 580 ran at about 150-160*F, huge difference and huge impact on temps.

For me, MSI is the clear choice. They make quality products and you are missing out on the best hardware on the market if you shut the door on them.

EDIT: Not saying all MSI products are great, so take my message with a grain of salt. But if you weed through this, and through the product marketplace, you will find that their super high end products are very competitive and very respectable in terms of performance.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 1, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> What's even more ridiculous is that those wannabe lawyers act like this type of shit doesn't happen everyday. And then as you wrote when the proof comes out corroborated by peers, they go silent. It's really insane that these companies threaten reviewers regularly. smh


That's what gets me. We all know how corporate culture can be... the types of games they will play for that bottom line. I'm all for 'innocent until proven guilty.' But with this sort of thing already being prevalent, it's not like it's a HUGE stretch that it would happen again. Most people assume it's happening all of the time. Does anybody not have misgivings about trusting mainstream reviews of products in highly competitive markets? But suddenly accusations surface and the credibility of the claims are immediately doubted. Meanwhile, you can go read a top 10 list for any type of product out there that is actually just a promotional article. I'd say that's more the norm. There are major incentives on both sides. It's pretty much guaranteed to be exploited. In other news, water is wet and fire is hot.

When you don't know, it's a question of motives. You ask where it's coming from, and what they would gain from smearing MSI. It's a big risk for a reviewer to take. They don't just make accusations like that for clout or whatever. Nobody wants to be sued for defamation. Especially when your whole business depends on maintaining a consistent level of integrity. I'm sure many times reviewers do take low-key bribes and engage in shill-like behavior. But to do the opposite and say you were bribed when you weren't doesn't serve you. It puts you in the hotseat. Nobody wants to be in that hotseat. I'm sure many people on the inside saw this and hoped not to get involved for that very reason. I mean, if you watch the GN video, Steve spends a lot of time talking about past dealings they never mentioned before. Generally the smart thing to do in their position would be to not take it and not speak of it. Path of least resistance. To go against that suggests pretty big issues... to the point where simple avoidance is no longer favorable. The last thing anybody in their business wants to be known for is unfairly stepping on toes. Other vendors may look at it and think it could be them next. Fair or not, that's the game.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 1, 2020)

I love my MSI X570 Tomahawk.  meh


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## robot zombie (Aug 1, 2020)

At the end of the day, people are still gonna buy what works for them. MSI does make some good products. Big picture, if you only buy from honest companies, you aren't buying anything.

Be nice to see that change a little, though.


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## BlaezaLite (Aug 1, 2020)

It was on Gamer's Nexus and Stephen doesn't mince his words, so more power to him.


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## Assimilator (Aug 1, 2020)

The fact that Tech Jesus just ripped MSI a new one, with email evidence of this behaviour going back half a decade, pretty much nailed the coffin shut.

This is very much an east Asian culture thing, whereby criticism of any sort is seen as taboo (the concept of "constructive criticism" essentially doesn't exist in those cultures, it's why they react so negatively). MSI could easily fix this by hiring PR people who are willing to actually engage with reviewers and get their feedback relayed to engineering so as to make a better product, but they choose not to. And that choice has consequences.



storm-chaser said:


> The MSI RX 5700 XT Gaming X is totally sick. No doubt about it, it's one of the best GPUs on the market at this time.
> 
> -It runs cooler than any other 5700 XT
> -It runs quieter than any other 5700 XT
> ...



How much is MSI paying you for that?


----------



## storm-chaser (Aug 1, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> How much is MSI paying you for that?



Ummmm.... this is a little awkward. 






Techpowerup is the source  

IDLE




UNDER LOAD




Direct quote from Techpowerup review:



> Gaming noise levels are much improved over the AMD reference card and better than what we've seen on most other RX 5700 XT custom designs. What I would also highlight here is that MSI achieves the lowest temperature of all tested Navi cards while still being the second quietest.





> MSI's cooler not only looks gorgeous but also delivers the best temperatures we've seen on any Navi card so far. With only 70°C at full load, the card runs so much cooler than the reference design, it's hard to believe both are built upon the same GPU chip. Noise levels are excellent, too, reaching 32 dBA in heavy gaming. This is the second-best noise result of all custom Navi cards we've tested so far, and MSI achieves that with just a single BIOS—no switching to a "quiet" BIOS required (which often runs the card at lower clocks or power limit). I have to compliment MSI for this approach as it gives gamers the best settings right out of the box. On top of that, MSI's Dragon Center App has a "silent mode" you can enable, if you choose to install that software. As expected, MSI includes the idle-fan-stop feature with the Gaming X, which completely shuts off the fans during idle, desktop work, Internet browsing, and light gaming.



Care to read more, you can see it here and according to techpowerup, it's a pretty good video card. 









						MSI Radeon RX 5700 XT Gaming X Review
					

The factory-overclocked MSI Radeon RX 5700 XT Gaming X is a large triple-slot, dual-fan design with a completely new cooler that achieves the best temperatures of all Navi cards we've tested so far. Even at its low temperatures, the card runs very quietly, and idle-fan-stop is included, too.




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Assimilator (Aug 1, 2020)

storm-chaser said:


> Ummmm.... this is a little awkward.
> 
> View attachment 164244
> 
> ...



And what, exactly, does any of that have to do with this thread?

Zip.
Zilch.
Nil.
Nada.

There's only one conceivable reason why, in a negative thread about a company, someone would come along and post ridiculously positive things about one of that company's products. It's called astroturfing, and you're way too obvious.

So I'll ask again: how much is MSI paying you?


----------



## storm-chaser (Aug 1, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> And what, exactly, does any of that have to do with this thread?
> 
> Zip.
> Zilch.
> ...


Damage control much??? 

ROFLCOPTER I said the card ran cooler and quieter than pretty much any other 5700 XT... if you can recall that, I posted it about 22 minutes ago. Then you asked how much MSI was paying me to say that... 

Then I posted results that proves I was correct, and my information was accurate, *from the very same people who run the forum you are posting on right now LOL*

Sounds like you need to read it again... if you dare!

*Why not ask Techpowerup how much they are getting paid by MSI? LOL *


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## Arctucas (Aug 1, 2020)

Can I get paid?


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 1, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Fascinating how all the "where is the evidence, all we have seen is a few claims with no backing" people seemed to disappear once this was corroborated by other (highly trustworthy) sources.


Why is that fascinating? If they asked for evidence, and were presented with evidence, would they be expected to stick around and deny that evidence? 



Assimilator said:


> And what, exactly, does any of that have to do with this thread?
> 
> Zip.
> Zilch.
> ...


Agreed. 

MSI makes 100s a products at any given point in time. Just because some don't meet rigorous testing/review standards, that does not mean all would fail. As Steve in that GN video correctly points out, a good reviewer, one with integrity will point out the good with the bad. And he did. 

@storm-chaser - you’re convinced your sample-size-of-one example of a good renders moot the whole point. It doesn't. It just shows that one product got a good review. But that has absolutely nothing to do with MSI's attempted strong-arm tactics over negative comments results received in other reviews. 

*CONCLUSION* - the integrity of the company behind the product is certainly a key factor (or should be) in any purchase decision - regardless the quality of their products.


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## robot zombie (Aug 1, 2020)

storm-chaser said:


> Damage control much???
> 
> ROFLCOPTER I said the card ran cooler and quieter than pretty much any other 5700 XT... if you can recall that, I posted it about 22 minutes ago. Then you asked how much MSI was paying me to say that...
> 
> ...


Because that review wasn't given under the context that MSI uses coercion tactics in order to get favorable reviews. Nobody actually thinks you're shilling here, nor that the TPU review was paid-off. Just pointing out that it's weird to be in a conversation about MSI's now corroborated dishonesty just to speak well of their products. The TPU review isn't relating itself to claims of shady deals. You are, simply by including your points about the quality of MSI products you've used in this specific conversation. In the former, foul play isn't implicit - it's just a review with some benchmarks. It went well, so that was pointed out. No here or there and no reason to suspect that TPU was bought out. Whereas the implications of what you're saying is that MSI's bad-faith actions are irrelevant because the product is good, neglecting that none of this discussion would be on the table if the product was ALWAYS good. So it comes off as negating MSI's attempts at dishonesty in order to sing thier praises.

I mean, how else are people supposed to react, you know? This is like if someone committed murder and you wanted to talk about how good their burgers were. It's not about what they did right, but what they did wrong, and changing the focus to what they did right comes off like you think the wrong is permissible because the right better suits you.


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## storm-chaser (Aug 1, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> And what, exactly, does any of that have to do with this thread? ============= talking about the quality and performance of the
> Zip.
> Zilch.
> Nil.
> ...





Assimilator said:


> And what, exactly, does any of that have to do with this thread?
> 
> Zip.
> Zilch.
> ...


Someone was bashing MSI pretty bad back there. So I posted the specs on my 5700XT Gaming x, so I wanted to relate my experience with the card is GOOD


----------



## blobster21 (Aug 1, 2020)

I'm still proud of my MSI Z97 gaming 5 mobo / i7 4790k, this going strong after 4-5 years (5 years already !?)

And this summer i'm having plenty of fun with my MSI GP73 Leopard 8RE gaming laptop (playing demanding games such as Doom, Hellblade Senua's Sacrifice, Assetto Corsa, Control, Antigraviator and so on....) Throttlestop even managed to give this i7 8750H an extra performance bump.

tldnr; owning 2 MSI products, me happy camper for the past 5 years.


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## storm-chaser (Aug 1, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> Why is that fascinating? If they asked for evidence, and were presented with evidence, would they be expected to stick around and deny that evidence?
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> ...



Look I will be honest. I dont know a whole bunch about the MSI's strong airm tacktics
can you flll me in?


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 1, 2020)

storm-chaser said:


> Look I will be honest. I dont know a whole bunch about the MSI's strong airm tacktics
> can you flll me in?


Did you watch that video? Are you following this thread? I guess that would be a no and no.


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## Fouquin (Aug 1, 2020)

storm-chaser said:


> Look I will be honest. I dont know a whole bunch about the MSI's strong airm tacktics
> can you flll me in?



Sure you can read about it more here.


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## storm-chaser (Aug 1, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> Did you watch that video? Are you following this thread? I guess that would be a no and no.


Just begginners  I saw that one question and just had to respond to it.


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## biffzinker (Aug 1, 2020)

The RTX 2060 GamingZ has been a great GPU card, and the B450 Tomahawk. I take issue with MSI not willing to listen to constructive criticism when there is glaring issues with their product.


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## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

Do I feel bad for buying two MSI B450 Mobo's and an RTX 2070 Super recently...........Nope.
Underhanded tactics come in all flavours where money is concerned.


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## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> Do I feel bad for buying two MSI B450 Mobo's and an RTX 2070 Super recently...........Nope.
> Underhanded tactics come in all flavours where money is concerned.


Indeed, but when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, an example has to be set. To do otherwise is basically passively condoning it. Just because it happens all of the time doesn't mean it should be accepted when it pops out in the open.

Of course there is no responsibility on the part of customers. No reason to feel guilt for buying their products if the products work for you. That is the point of the exchange. Whether or not you want to buy their products is a personal choice that I don't think anyone else can really make for you or rightly hold against you.

But nor is that grounds for dismissal of repeated bad-faith behavior. "Everybody's doing it." ain't gonna cut it. If we stopped prosecuting people caught committing common crimes simply because they are common, what happens to the standard for behavior in our society? If anything, that is the best reason for making an example out of that behavior. When a situation is out of control, passively abiding it only makes it worse. People may still buy thier products, but it's still worth talking about. They still deserve the hit to their reputation. Others do the same and get away with it, no doubt. But it can't be proven. In this case, the wrongdoings are blatant and grounds for trial by public opinion at a minimum. They ought to feel the heat for this. Maybe it will motivate them to make better products instead.

Think of it this way... this is behavior that ultimately hurts me and you, it hurts the industry, it hurts reviewers. If you still buy the products that's fine, but lets not pretend like it's fine and dandy that companies conduct themselves in a way that leaves the consumer mislead with a lower quality product than they expected and diminished trust in the markets they support. I don't care how many people do it and get away with it. It's never okay. If caught, there should still be a price to pay. Companies who do this and reviewers who go along are basically stealing from us. That they have good products too is meaningless, because they'll just as easily try to pawn crap on you as they will sell you something that's actually worth it. One doesn't cancel out the other. They may have been straight-up with you, but they ripped off the next guy. No reason why that couldn't have been you.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 2, 2020)

MSI seems to be improving a lot of their hardware, my MSI X570 Tomahawk for example is number 1 sought after mobo right now and for good reason.  MSI I listened to all the complaints and fixed them.  Competition is fierce, they got a little desperate on communication side of things. As long as they don't do it again I have no issue with them.


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## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> MSI seems to be improving a lot of their hardware, my MSI X570 Tomahawk for example is number 1 sought after mobo right now and for good reason.  MSI I listened to all the complaints and fixed them.  Competition is fierce, they got a little desperate on communication side of things. As long as they don't do it again I have no issue with them.


That's the ultimate takeway I think. They can and should improve. We've seen companies turn around before. MSI already has plenty going for it. No need for these tactics. Hopefully they now see that it's the wrong choice.


----------



## Caring1 (Aug 2, 2020)

I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.


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## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.


Seen this many times now. To me it is meaningless. When you do business internationally, you need to mind what is and is not acceptable where you choose to do business. Buyers have no obligations to accept how you do things where you're based. If that's how they want to operate, they can do it where it's standard practice. But otherwise they can only expect to be held to the same standard as those competing in the same market. They ignore the rules at their own peril. It's on them to recognize the problem and deal with it... not for us to accept how they operate. No special treatment.


----------



## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> Indeed, but when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, an example has to be set. To do otherwise is basically passively condoning it. Just because it happens all of the time doesn't mean it should be accepted when it pops out in the open.
> 
> Of course there is no responsibility on the part of customers. No reason to feel guilt for buying their products if the products work for you. That is the point of the exchange. Whether or not you want to buy their products is a personal choice that I don't think anyone else can really make for you or rightly hold against you.
> 
> ...



Shall we all tear Windows 10 from our computers then?,  becuase we all seem to forget how anti-competition Microsoft were labelled, and allegedly still are.



Caring1 said:


> I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.



It's called business. Every country does it.


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> Shall we all tear Windows 10 from our computers then?,  becuase we all seem to forget how anti-competition Microsoft were labelled, and allegedly still are.


Lets not conflate a completely separate issue that isn't nearly as cut and dry. Not to mention there are fewer alternatives.

Even if we are to assume they are the same, I didn't say the buyer has no responsibility for the company for no reason. My whole point was that just because it is common practice doesn't mean that it has to be accepted or hand waved as the way things are and will always be. If you're comfortable being used and lied to, feel free to be quiet and complicit in it. I say let it at least be known. I see no good reason to forgive it. All that says to them is that they can get away with more and the very people they take advantage of will rise to their defense.


----------



## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> Lets not conflate a completely separate issue that isn't nearly as cut and dry. Not to mention there are fewer alternatives.
> 
> Even if we are to assume they are the same, I didn't say the buyer has no responsibility for the company for no reason. My whole point was that just because it is common practice doesn't mean that it has to be accepted or hand waved as the way things are and will always be. If you're comfortable being used and lied to, feel free to be quiet and complicit in it. I say let it at least be known. I see no good reason to forgive it. All that says to them is that they can get away with more and the very people they take advantage of will rise to their defense.



I'm not defending MSI, nor would I defend any other company tech related or otherwise.
But there really is no defending the indefensible. My conscience tells me to discard (vehicles included) every consumable I own. because I bet nearly all manufacturers have been involved in underhaded tactics in one way or another to enrich themselves.
I could go on - and on, and on and  on...............................................


----------



## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> I'm not defending MSI, nor would I defend any other company tech related or otherwise.
> But there really is no defending the indefensible. My conscience tells me to discard (vehicles included) every consumable I own. becuase in some way shape or form I can bet nearly all of them have been involved in underhaded tactics in one way or another to enrich themselves.
> I could go on - and on, and on and  on...............................................


Well sure, but sometimes if there is enough push, things do change. People say vote with your wallet. All of the money I will make in my life is a very small vote. It's pointless. But if all shareholders see when they read about a company they back is bad press, they may start thinking about distancing themselves before they are drawn in. And what they contribute in a relatively short time is many times more than I will spend in my entire life. Not to mention, public companies are legally beholden to answer to those folks. If buyers don't have confidence, investors see that and get nervous... the band does tighten. It's not for nothing. Even Microsoft isn't immune to this, and I'd bet they like being sought after on wall st. There is a lot of money riding on that trust, and I'm not talking about what's in OUR wallets. Nobody will back a company that is hated. It puts their financial future into question. Even if there is no competition at the time, it puts them in a position to eventually see a successor rise up. The longer it goes on, the worse it looks. So companies do tend to jump on it. And if people aren't satisfied, they know it's in their best interest to do even more.

Or in this case, we have a company that tried to go behind people's backs to maintain a competitive image. It seems fitting that their image would suffer when it was brought out. And that serves as a good incentive to stop doing it. If people just let it go, they'd have no reason to stop. But if what they're doing to improve thier image is having the opposite effect and people are speaking out about it, there's a whole lot less motivation to continue. It forces people higher up to get involved and hopefully make it at least a little more favorable for us. It has become thier problem, because people above them are going to want to have answers on where all this bad press that's messing with their bottom line is coming from and what is going to be done about it. What counts is that they know that when they do that, people get mad. Pissed off customers eventually go elsewhere, so their focus now has to be on course correcting. It's not all about immediate sales. A company willing to stoop to this for the sake of image clearly values that as much as sales. So whether people buy or not, the bad press hits where it hurts. Now all eyes are on them. It will be harder for them to get away with it. And that's exactly how it should be.


----------



## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> Well sure, but sometimes if there is enough push, things do change. People say vote with your wallet. All of the money I will make in my life is a very small vote. It's pointless. But if all shareholders see when they read about a company they back is bad press, they may start thinking about distancing themselves before they are drawn in. And what they contribute in a relatively short time is many times more than I will spend in my entire life. Not to mention, public companies are legally beholden to answer to those folks. If buyers don't have confidence, investors see that and get nervous... the band does tighten. It's not for nothing. Even Microsoft isn't immune to this, and I'd bet they like being sought after on wall st. There is a lot of money riding on that trust, and I'm not talking about what's in OUR wallets. Nobody will back a company that is hated. It puts their financial future into question. Even if there is no competition at the time, it puts them in a position to eventually see a successor rise up. The longer it goes on, the worse it looks. So companies do tend to jump on it. And if people aren't satisfied, they know it's in their best interest to do even more.
> 
> Or in this case, we have a company that tried to go behind people's backs to maintain a competitive image. It seems fitting that their image would suffer when it was brought out. And that serves as a good incentive to stop doing it. If people just let it go, they'd have no reason to stop. But if what they're doing to improve thier image is having the opposite effect and people are speaking out about it, there's a whole lot less motivation to continue. It forces people higher up to get involved and hopefully make it at least a little more favorable for us. It has become thier problem, because people above them are going to want to have answers on where all this bad press that's messing with their bottom line is coming from and what is going to be done about it. What counts is that they know that when they do that, people get mad. Pissed off customers eventually go elsewhere, so their focus now has to be on course correcting. It's not all about immediate sales. A company willing to stoop to this for the sake of image clearly values that as much as sales. So whether people buy or not, the bad press hits where it hurts. Now all eyes are on them. It will be harder for them to get away with it. And that's exactly how it should be.



I like your passion but people have very short memories, and this alleged bribe my MSI is a drop in the ocean that will soon be forgotten, Just like the GTX 970 VRAM fiasco. and Intel's CPU patching, and Apple and Samsung's alleged slowing of phone's. Yet people still flock to buy their goods when they hit the shelves. MSI will be around for years to come.


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## robot zombie (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> I like your passion but people have very short memories, and this alleged bribe my MSI is a drop in the ocean that will soon be forgotten, Just like the GTX 970 VRAM fiasco. and Intel's CPU patching, and Apple and Samsung's alleged slowing of phone's. Yet people still flock to buy their goods when they hit the shelves. MSI will be around for years to come.


People may forget, but MSI won't have the luxury. They will have to think twice next time, or run the risk of refreshing people's memories. To me it's enough that they will now have to be on their toes when it comes to dealing with reviewers, who now also have things to lose by associating with MSI. MSI clearly wants the reviews and can't lose them, and so will have to make some changes.

I get what you're saying though. People get all hopped up but in the end return to sort of buying against their best interests. Said it many times before and I'll say it again: people are generally terrible at dealing with anything beyond the present. Our minds simply aren't built for it - we reach the wrong conclusions. I myself do this. I know I do! It can't fully be avoided. But I still think that's not all that's at stake. The psychological component is still to be wrestled with and Apple and Samsung spend big money to stay on top. When they take hits like that, they may still get more than enough sales, but it will never be what it could've been.

They are in a vulnerable position where if a suitable competitor for any particular product pops up post-image-dip, people will subconsciously give it more consideration, which would normally not have been given had the pull of the big guy's reputation not been dealt blows. It does stick around and trickle, even if people stop talking about it and many still buy. And they don't just want good sales. They want to continually maximize and increase them. So they have to care at least a little. A loss is a loss, especially when we're dealing with bean counters. Not to mention, the second time around stings more.

The way I see it, consumers only stand to benefit by things like this happening. It directly puts some fire to MSI's asses and makes their competition more careful to not be next. Of course people would still buy from them, but at least they will have to tweak thier strategy. Especially when it gets picked up by press they rely on to keep mindshare up. Remember, people are forgetful. If you're not getting good coverage they might just start to forget that you exist. Not a position any of them want to be in, ever. MSI is pretty big, but still smaller than Apple or Samsung. They are big enough to not be forgotten overnight, but definitely not big enough to not gradually lose ground.

I think they'll have to take it seriously. Better than nothing. Our powers as consumers are limited. Any victory we get is worth it. This like a shadow boycott. Any loss of sales is too much for any company. Not to mention risk of future losses. It's not going to start a revolution or anything but it may just lead to products and services from a big brand improving a little bit. Still good to keep em a little on thier toes. Ideally, that's what reviewers do. Consumers turn to them because they work for consumers to help them make better purchases. Anything that keeps that whole process a little more honest is good.

Totally understand why people don't have faith, but every now and then this kind of thing works and companies do respond with attempts to fix problems. More in the PC enthusiast world than I've seen in most other places, at times.


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## Caring1 (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> Apple and Samsung's *alleged* slowing of phone's. Yet people still flock to buy their goods when they hit the shelves. MSI will be around for years to come.


Lol at alleged.  
And not everyone flocks to buy the latest and "greatest", only the brainwashed do that.


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## storm-chaser (Aug 2, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> There's only one conceivable reason why, in a negative thread about a company, someone would come along and post ridiculously positive things about one of that company's products. It's called astroturfing, and you're way too obvious.
> 
> So I'll ask again: how much is MSI paying you?



You might ask me why I am posting this? Because people have been bashing MSI quality as well, throughout entire thread and I wanted to offer some positive evidence of the quality of some of their high-end products, and that they do in fact make great products and excellent contributions to the overclocking/enthusiast market place.

Some people here seem to think what MSI did was sac religious or something, like MSI crossed an invisible line and the show is over with them, blacklisted, for good. *People don't seem to realize that pretty much every hardware maker has made similar, if not identical, moves just like this. *Intel, AMD, etc all have been accused and called out on similar behavior. This is nothing new in the industry. MSI is simply trying to compete in a cutthroat, competitive marketplace. To put this in perspective, there are literally hundreds of products on amazon.com where the seller offers an incentive/benefit/discount to leave a positive review. This practice goes on at a high level, and it's nothing new. Nobody here should be perturbed by this behavior. It's been going on for thousands of years -- ever since Eve sold Adam on the forbidden fruit 

I also like the balanced aesthetics MSI brings to the table. For example, the MSI Core Frozr 120mm air cooler offers an excellent balance between performance and aesthetics. And while not up to par with some of the super high end 120/140 mm air coolers, it still managed to hold my six core 9600KF at 5.0 GHz. I think the heat pipes look absolutely sick, as do the red colored fans relative to the grey housing. Offers an excellent contrast in color. Take a look at that heatpipe art work. Very impressive to say the least.

(other noctua setup in pic is a 120mm rad made by alphacool, which has a thickness of 80mm for something else) (and no, I don't work for Alphacool either) (Or Noctua, for that matter) (and, ironically, I don't work for techpowerup either... get it?)








And this begs another question... You seem to like to accuse people of being paid by MSI. Little bit trigger happy I see. I would counter you are just fishing around, or even you yourself may be here to manipulate the truth, perhaps you work for one of MSI's competitors?  Going out and knocking their products -- lol wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened.  I recommend you point your tremendous powers of perception directly at something we all want to know – something that has remained a mystery up until this point at least. *Why don't you ask Linus how much he paid for the giant life size red MSI dragon he has sitting in his office right now?*





 ROFL


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> Why is that fascinating? If they asked for evidence, and were presented with evidence, would they be expected to stick around and deny that evidence?


They might, you know, stick around to acknowledge that the basis for the discussion has changed, making their previous stance untenable? There are options beyond clamming up or doubling down, you know. That was the entire point of my comment, that people questioning the credibility of this all of a sudden seemed to go *poof* when it was corroborated, rather than saying something to the point of "Okay, that's settled then" and continuing the debate from there. It's hard not to read this as somehow trying to save face or avoid embarassment - as if changing your opinion when presented with evidence is somehow embarassing...


storm-chaser said:


> Someone was bashing MSI pretty bad back there. So I posted the specs on my 5700XT Gaming x, so I wanted to relate my experience with the card is GOOD


Sorry, what? You saw a thread about a subject you knew nothing about, and decided to jump in to say "MSI MAKES GOOD PRODUCTS TOO"? Sorry, that doesn't add up. My guess: you saw a very negative thread about a company you have bought things from and been happy with. Rather than seeing these two things as entirely unrelated (which they are), you linked the two in your mind and immediately went on the defensive, as you then felt a strong need to justify your purchase of an MSI product to avoid some sort of perceived embarrassment from having somehow made a wrong decision. While fully understandable, this is a steaming heap of poorly managed irrational defensive psychological patterns: you are not your purchase decisions; you can't reasonably be held accountable for making a decision in the past that when presented with this new evidence might be reconsidered if it were to happen today; this debate isn't about customers or purchase decisions at all, but about MSI's ethical standards; this debate isn't about MSI's products either, but about MSI's ethical standards. Etc., etc.

The next time you see something like this and feel the urge to jump in, I would recommend you take a minute to think about why you are feeling the way you do. Chances are it has nothing to do with you whatsoever.


lynx29 said:


> MSI seems to be improving a lot of their hardware, my MSI X570 Tomahawk for example is number 1 sought after mobo right now and for good reason.  MSI I listened to all the complaints and fixed them.  Competition is fierce, they got a little desperate on communication side of things. As long as they don't do it again I have no issue with them.


That is a woefully naive stance in light of GN's video. "As long as they don't do it again" - they have consistently been doing this for the better part of a decade. There is _zero_ chance of them not repeating this pattern of behavior. Not to mention that this stance is effectively saying "whatever, now we know, but it shouldn't have any consequences". After all, you can't prove a negative, so there is no way to actually know that MSI hasn't done it again. They are well deserving of a period in the proverbial doghouse. IMO, MSI needs to address this publicly and directly, and promise to change their company culture. If not, I see no reason to expect it not to continue as it has up until now.


storm-chaser said:


> *snip*


Okay, this thing needs a part-by-part breakdown:


storm-chaser said:


> You might ask me why I am posting this? Because people have been bashing MSI quality as well, throughout entire thread and I wanted to offer some positive evidence of the quality of some of their high-end products, and that they do in fact make great products and excellent contributions to the overclocking/enthusiast market place.


What you are demonstrating here is a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic. This came to light precisely because MSI has made and continues to make flawed products. There is nothing special about that - _every company on earth_ that makes a product has made a flawed product. Perfection is impossible. But as I said, that isn't what this topic is about - it's about *how MSI responds to criticism of their products. *And their default response from this seems to be bribery, strong-arm tactics and other underhanded tactics to avoid bad PR, rather than _actually fixing their flaws_.

To be abundantly clear: *whether or not MSI has made products with no major flaws is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.*


storm-chaser said:


> Some people here seem to think what MSI did was sac religious or something, like MSI crossed an invisible line and the show is over with them, blacklisted, for good. *People don't seem to realize that pretty much every hardware maker has made similar, if not identical, moves just like this. *Intel, AMD, etc all have been accused and called out on similar behavior. This is nothing new in the industry. MSI is simply trying to compete in a cutthroat, competitive marketplace. To put this in perspective, there are literally hundreds of products on amazon.com where the seller offers an incentive/benefit/discount to leave a positive review. This practice goes on at a high level, and it's nothing new. Nobody here should be perturbed by this behavior. It's been going on for thousands of years -- ever since Eve sold Adam on the forbidden fruit


Nobody here is saying this is new and unheard of. But there have been thorough and well-formulated arguments posted previously in this thread addressing why accepting this as "just the way things work" is a deeply problematic stance. Go back and read those, please. If you want the PC component industry to be a healthy industry where product quality improves over time and components succeed on their merits rather than their marketing, evidence of actions like these should matter to you. If not, then you are effectively saying that you don't care if this industry goes to shit and component quality drops. But if that's the case, what are you doing on forums like these?



storm-chaser said:


> I also like the balanced aesthetics MSI brings to the table. For example, the MSI Core Frozr 120mm air cooler offers an excellent balance between performance and aesthetics. And while not up to par with some of the super high end 120/140 mm air coolers, it still managed to hold my six core 9600KF at 5.0 GHz. I think the heat pipes look absolutely sick, as do the red colored fans relative to the grey housing. Offers an excellent contrast in color. Take a look at that heatpipe art work. Very impressive to say the least.
> 
> (other noctua setup in pic is a 120mm rad made by alphacool, which has a thickness of 80mm for something else) (and no, I don't work for Alphacool either) (Or Noctua, for that matter) (and, ironically, I don't work for techpowerup either... get it?)


... and how is this at all relevant to the discussion? Seriously, I'm asking. Please try to put into words how this is relevant to this thread. You have been challenged.



storm-chaser said:


> And this begs another question... You seem to like to accuse people of being paid by MSI. Little bit trigger happy I see. I would counter you are just fishing around, or even you yourself may be here to manipulate the truth, perhaps you work for one of MSI's competitors?  Going out and knocking their products -- lol wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened.  I recommend you point your tremendous powers of perception directly at something we all want to know – something that has remained a mystery up until this point at least. *Why don't you ask Linus how much he paid for the giant life size red MSI dragon he has sitting in his office right now?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While not the worst example in the world, you're trying to take a cheap shot here rather than actually arguing for anything. Linus has over the years made quite a few videos addressing this subject and related ones. As have many other tech 'tubers. Surrounding yourself with branded merch is pretty much par for the course for these people, as it's ultimately a "mandatory" part of the "tech youtuber" aesthetic that is necessary to attain any sort of success in this field today. I'd also ask you this: when was the last time you saw that dragon in one of their videos? I sure haven't seen that for quite a while. The point being: unless it's prominently placed and frequently seen, it's ultimately irrelevant. Sure, it amounts to an ad, but of the "subliminal messaging" kind that attempts to subtly influence which brands people think of rather than directly selling a product. In the sea of branded merchandise seen in LTT's studios, this barely stands out. For this to be any type of egregious, it would need to be part of a pattern of prominent placement of MSI logos and products in many if not all LTT videos. That isn't happening. So while it's a bit weird to have a huge 2-meter-tall ad in your studio, ultimately it's not that problematic. (On the other hand, if said ad was a roll-up advertising a specific MSI product, that _would_ be problematic due to its specificity - unless they disclosed that the video was sponsored by MSI, of course.


----------



## micropage7 (Aug 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> one idiot in PR doesn't really change the way I look on their trio or tomahawk line.
> 
> lol,AMD are in on this
> to clarify- they're (allegedly) on the reviewer's side
> ...


i guess the message is clear, if you still want review samples from us just write the good things


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## storm-chaser (Aug 2, 2020)

Valantar said:


> They might, you know, stick around to acknowledge that the basis for the discussion has changed, making their previous stance untenable? There are options beyond clamming up or doubling down, you know. That was the entire point of my comment, that people questioning the credibility of this all of a sudden seemed to go *poof* when it was corroborated, rather than saying something to the point of "Okay, that's settled then" and continuing the debate from there. It's hard not to read this as somehow trying to save face or avoid embarassment - as if changing your opinion when presented with evidence is somehow embarassing...
> 
> Sorry, what? You saw a thread about a subject you knew nothing about, and decided to jump in to say "MSI MAKES GOOD PRODUCTS TOO"? Sorry, that doesn't add up. My guess: you saw a very negative thread about a company you have bought things from and been happy with. Rather than seeing these two things as entirely unrelated (which they are), you linked the two in your mind and immediately went on the defensive, as you then felt a strong need to justify your purchase of an MSI product to avoid some sort of perceived embarrassment from having somehow made a wrong decision. While fully understandable, this is a steaming heap of poorly managed irrational defensive psychological patterns: you are not your purchase decisions; you can't reasonably be held accountable for making a decision in the past that when presented with this new evidence might be reconsidered if it were to happen today; this debate isn't about customers or purchase decisions at all, but about MSI's ethical standards; this debate isn't about MSI's products either, but about MSI's ethical standards. Etc., etc.
> 
> ...



*Dude, I didnt have to watch the video to understand what went on there. LOL* It was described in about three sentences at the top of the page. It's super simple: Every major tech brand/vendor/manufacturers do the exact same thing, not sure why you are not seeing this clearly.

I jumped on board because I did read numerous pages of the thread as well. Thats the whole point here: Contained within the thread are people bashing MSI quality, so I simply countered with positive feedback. Not sure why you are writing a book about it, this subject is a moot point anyway. But apparently, you like the bashing just not the good stuff. That's called a non level playing field, fyi.



Valantar said:


> ... and how is this at all relevant to the discussion? Seriously, I'm asking. Please try to put into words how this is relevant to this thread. You have been challenged.


Seriously? Here goes...

People were bashing some MSI products... Get that? Some people were bashing MSI aesthetics, get that? I was responding to the negativity with a positive experience. Not sure why you are censoring the topic if it goes in the opposite direction of your intent for the thread.  It's called a review, and it can be good or bad, in case you didn't know! And product experience. You can find thousands on amazon, and amazon does not censor reviews (or do they? good question...) If you chose to only deal with and nominate brutal attacks against a decent tech company, I suppose it's not worth wasting my time here.

Im showing people the MSI products that I like, and demonstrating their quality and looks - and why I like them. doesn't mean you have to go out and buy one, and sure it's applicable to the thread. People have been talking about specific hardware since page one, what I'm doing is no different. I'm especially excited about my next rig, which will have the very sick looking *MSI MEG Z490 Unify* under the hood. It will make for some sick overclocking, no doubt about that! *Check out that VRM stack for starters.* 400W TDP? No problem  The top-tier 90A power stages really do make a difference. This motherboard also has some of the coolest running VRMs out of any Z490 Motherboard currently on the market.








Valantar said:


> While not the worst example in the world, you're trying to take a cheap shot here rather than actually arguing for anything. Linus has over the years made quite a few videos addressing this subject and related ones. As have many other tech 'tubers. Surrounding yourself with branded merch is pretty much par for the course for these people, as it's ultimately a "mandatory" part of the "tech youtuber" aesthetic that is necessary to attain any sort of success in this field today. I'd also ask you this: when was the last time you saw that dragon in one of their videos? I sure haven't seen that for quite a while. The point being: unless it's prominently placed and frequently seen, it's ultimately irrelevant. Sure, it amounts to an ad, but of the "subliminal messaging" kind that attempts to subtly influence which brands people think of rather than directly selling a product. In the sea of branded merchandise seen in LTT's studios, this barely stands out. For this to be any type of egregious, it would need to be part of a pattern of prominent placement of MSI logos and products in many if not all LTT videos. That isn't happening. So while it's a bit weird to have a huge 2-meter-tall ad in your studio, ultimately it's not that problematic. (On the other hand, if said ad was a roll-up advertising a specific MSI product, that _would_ be problematic due to its specificity - unless they disclosed that the video was sponsored by MSI, of course.



Okay, well hopefully you are up for the challenge then! *We will all be waiting with baited breath.* BTW the video is still on youtube (







) and is still a fairly popular video, so it's out there and visible right now.  Heck, I might have even watched that entire video myself at one point or another. Let's hope you can come back with good results since you are striking out round after round with your trigger finger accusations here (not directed to you personally, but to the people who thought because I posted something positive about MSI I must work for them. And then was slammed to the ground after realizing the data actually came from techpowerups personal review. Apparently, you guys really hate seeing positive reviews here for some reason and simply get your feathers ruffled when faced with direct opposition with people who like MSI products. 

*Yeah, I like MSI so I must work for them.*

Brilliant logic 

ROFL


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## Calmmo (Aug 2, 2020)

Must say I didn't see this becoming a Fanboys vs World thread


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## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> People may forget, but MSI won't have the luxury. They will have to think twice next time, or run the risk of refreshing people's memories. To me it's enough that they will now have to be on their toes when it comes to dealing with reviewers, who now also have things to lose by associating with MSI. MSI clearly wants the reviews and can't lose them, and so will have to make some changes.
> 
> I get what you're saying though. People get all hopped up but in the end return to sort of buying against their best interests. Said it many times before and I'll say it again: people are generally terrible at dealing with anything beyond the present. Our minds simply aren't built for it - we reach the wrong conclusions. I myself do this. I know I do! It can't fully be avoided. But I still think that's not all that's at stake. The psychological component is still to be wrestled with and Apple and Samsung spend big money to stay on top. When they take hits like that, they may still get more than enough sales, but it will never be what it could've been.
> 
> ...





robot zombie said:


> People may forget, but MSI won't have the luxury. They will have to think twice next time, or run the risk of refreshing people's memories.


 Really??. People seem to have forgotten what the others I mentioned in my last post did and still flock to buy their hardware. It's like a kind of Stockholm Syndrome and it will remain that way. Only a handful of buyers will go elswhere.



robot zombie said:


> Said it many times before and I'll say it again: people are generally terrible at dealing with anything beyond the present. Our minds simply aren't built for it


 Brand snob sheeple perhaps, but not not everyone thinks the same.



robot zombie said:


> The way I see it, consumers only stand to benefit by things like this happening. It directly puts some fire to MSI's asses and makes their competition more careful to not be next.


 Benfit how? Nothing will change, the marketing departments are up to their eyes in consumer psychology books and AI. 
Replace the word consumer with customer and then I might just have some faith in their faux sincerity.



robot zombie said:


> I think they'll have to take it seriously. Better than nothing. Our powers as consumers are limited. Any victory we get is worth it


Nah. They'll make a partial robotic apology like some of the others have in the past then it'll be back to business as usual. The only thing that will change any of their ways is when the consumer stops buying altogether. And in this day and age where many have no job to go back to it's looking highly likely sales will plummet for all of them. 



robot zombie said:


> Totally understand why people don't have faith, but every now and then this kind of thing works and companies do respond with attempts to fix problems.


 Until the next scandal. Then the one after that, then the next one, and so on..........



Caring1 said:


> Lol at alleged.
> And not everyone flocks to buy the latest and "greatest", only the brainwashed do that.



I try and tread carefully. Brain before keyboard rants 



lynx29 said:


> MSI seems to be improving a lot of their hardware, my MSI X570 Tomahawk for example is number 1 sought after mobo right now and for good reason.  MSI I listened to all the complaints and fixed them.  Competition is fierce, they got a little desperate on communication side of things. As long as they don't do it again I have no issue with them.



I've never had any bad hardware from them or any of the other big guns for that matter. I'd only have faith in MSI if they fixed their broken website.


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## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

storm-chaser said:


> *Dude, I didnt have to watch the video to understand what went on there. LOL* It was described in about three sentences at the top of the page. It's super simple: Every major tech brand/vendor/manufacturers do the exact same thing, not sure why you are not seeing this clearly.


Wait, did I say anything to you about watching the video? Or are you taking on the responsibility of responding for everyone I quoted?

As to your argument here: asked and answered - quite eloquently - previously in this thread. Check out @robot zombie's posts.


storm-chaser said:


> I jumped on board because I did read numerous pages of the thread as well. Thats the whole point here: Contained within the thread are people bashing MSI quality, so I simply countered with positive feedback. Not sure why you are writing a book about it, this subject is a moot point anyway. But apparently, you like the bashing just not the good stuff. That's called a non level playing field, fyi.


So you missed the part where a moderator stepped in _twice _to clean up the off-topic back-and-forth bashing in this thread? Because that is what you are continuing here, not an on-topic discussion. To remind you, as it is clearly necessary at this point: *this thread is about MSI's PR team attempting to suppress negative reviews through underhanded tactics*. It is not _in any way whatsoever_ about the quality (or lack thereof) of MSI's products. I made that pretty clear in my previous post:


Valantar said:


> To be abundantly clear: *whether or not MSI has made products with no major flaws is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.*


Either you didn't read my post at all, you don't understand what this topic is about, or you are doubling down on an irrational defensive stance. Either way, please stop. You're not adding anything of value here.


storm-chaser said:


> Seriously? Here goes...
> 
> People were bashing some MSI products... Get that? Some people were bashing MSI aesthetics, get that? I was responding to the negativity with a positive experience. Not sure why you are censoring the topic if it goes in the opposite direction of your intent for the thread.  It's called a review, and it can be good or bad, in case you didn't know! And product experience. You can find thousands on amazon, and amazon does not censor reviews (or do they? good question...) If you chose to only deal with and nominate brutal attacks against a decent tech company, I suppose it's not worth wasting my time here.


Again: this is fundamentally irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is not a "post your reviews of MSI products" thread. It is not a "what do you think of MSI as a company?" thread. It is a discussion of specific actions MSI has taken in a specific context, springing from but otherwise unrelated to specific products and their quality. And how exactly am I "censoring the topic"? By attempting to keep us _actually discussing the topic at hand_, rather than veering off into irrelevant and uninteresting back-and-forths about whether or not MSI has made/makes good products? This is _not_ the topic of this thread, and again, a moderator has been here to clean up the other nonsense. You continuing it doesn't help anything.

Also, what am I "nominating"? For what? Is there an election or award related to this thread? As for "brutal attacks": beyond criticizing MSIs now thoroughly documented bad behavior, what exactly in my posts qualify as that? And isn't criticism of bad behavior warranted? I haven't commented on either side of this part of the debate; I purposely left it alone as it is - once again, with feeling now! - _not relevant to the topic_. It seems you entirely misunderstand why I am arguing against you: I'm not arguing against you because I believe that MSI makes bad quality products or something similar, I am arguing against you because _what you are saying doesn't affect the topic of this thread_. Your posts are in a similar vein to entering a topic discussing an accused criminal and saying "but look how handsome he is, and he's really good at playing CoD!"

As for MSI being a "decent tech company", I would argue that the actions brought to light here severely damage any claim they might have to _decency_.


storm-chaser said:


> Im showing people the MSI products that I like, and demonstrating their quality and looks - and why I like them. doesn't mean you have to go out and buy one, and sure it's applicable to the thread. People have been talking about specific hardware since page one, what I'm doing is no different. I'm especially excited about my next rig, which will have the very sick looking *MSI MEG Z490 Unify* under the hood. It will make for some sick overclocking, no doubt about that! *Check out that VRM stack for starters.* 400W TDP? No problem  The top-tier 90A power stages really do make a difference. This motherboard also has some of the coolest running VRMs out of any Z490 Motherboard currently on the market.
> 
> View attachment 164305


Again: how is this relevant to how MSI PR treats reviewers? How does this reflect on the ethics of MSI as a company? _*Not at all*_.


storm-chaser said:


> Okay, well hopefully you are up for the challenge then! *We will all be waiting with baited breath.*


What challenge? Did you challenge me to do anything? Where? The only request or question I can see in your post is to "check out that VRM", which, yes, looks decent. I don't see how a decent VRM setup alleviates bad behavior though. Virtue ethics through PC hardware quality is not part of how I view the world, though it seems that is what you are arguing for.



storm-chaser said:


> BTW the video is still on youtube (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did I say the video wasn't on YouTube? No. I just said it isn't particularly relevant. Why? Well, it's a livestream from 2018. I would guess it got >95% of its views in the first two weeks, and that the number of people watching it each week now can likely be counted on one hand. Livestreams tend to lose relevance far more quickly than more topical content, after all. As for "fairly popular video"? Their Dell XPS 15/17 video, posted _17 hours ago_ as I write this, has 66% of its views. Their video about a 40TB SSD from _three days ago_ is nearing the same view count. Looking over their uploads, the majority of LTT videos posted in the past couple of weeks have >900k views. In other words, for an LTT video, this is entirely unremarkable in terms of popularity.

As for the rest of this: don't put words in my mouth. Yes, you come back with a "not directed to you personally" - well, then direct it at the people you intend it to be directed at. FFS. _Everything_ else you write here is directed at me. This is just lazy.

And to repeat myself once again (really getting tired of this now ...): product quality, whether it be good or bad, _is entirely irrelevant to this discussion_. The only reason I'm singling out you in responding to you is that you are the only one still beating this long-dead, half-rotten, off-topic horse. Everyone else got their act together after the mods stepped in.
*


storm-chaser said:



			Yeah, I like MSI so I must work for them.
		
Click to expand...

*


storm-chaser said:


> Brilliant logic
> 
> ROFL


Again: see above. Don't quote me if you're responding to someone else.


----------



## Assimilator (Aug 2, 2020)

storm-chaser said:


> *Dude, I didnt have to watch the video to understand what went on there. LOL* It was described in about three sentences at the top of the page. It's super simple: Every major tech brand/vendor/manufacturers do the exact same thing, not sure why you are not seeing this clearly.
> 
> I jumped on board because I did read numerous pages of the thread as well. Thats the whole point here: Contained within the thread are people bashing MSI quality, so I simply countered with positive feedback. Not sure why you are writing a book about it, this subject is a moot point anyway. But apparently, you like the bashing just not the good stuff. That's called a non level playing field, fyi.
> 
> ...



Whether you're merely an extremely stupid fanboy or a paid shill, it doesn't matter:

*THIS.
THREAD.
IS.
NOT.
ABOUT.
MSI'S.
PRODUCTS.*

It is about MSI's unethical practices in relation to hardware reviewers.

*NONE* of your posts have been relevant to that topic.

As such I have reported them and hope they will be removed ASAP.

A monkey throwing its poop would be a more useful contribution to this thread than your posts.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> Really??. People seem to have forgotten what the others I mentioned in my last post did and still flock to buy their hardware. It's like a kind of Stockholm Syndrome and it will remain that way. Only a handful of buyers will go elswhere.
> 
> Brand snob sheeple perhaps, but not not everyone thinks the same.
> 
> ...


I don't think the two of you actually disagree all that much, though you do seem to differ in your degree of belief in "consumer power". The issue is, as you pretty much say, that "conscientious consumption" changing anything at all is a pure myth. AFAIK the _only_ large-scale boycott to ever (significantly contribute to) achieve(ing) its goals was the anti-apartheid boycott of South Africa. Beyond that, it's barely a drop in the bucket. This kerfuffle certainly isn't going to lead to coordinated consumer action on a scale significant enough to change MSI's company culture.

Other things can effect this change, though: press attention and regulation/litigation. While this doesn't amount to outright anticompetitive behavior, it is nonetheless under the jurisdiction of agencies like the US FTC. Of course they are entirely ineffectual after decades of being dismantled by "business-friendly" administrations, but that doesn't change the fact that they _should_ be handling things like this. That's what we have governments for: to protect people in ways in which they are themselves powerless.

Still, I don't expect this to change much. But at least the attention might serve to push MSI _slightly_ in a better direction. And even that is better than nothing.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Aug 2, 2020)

If anyone is curious, Linus charges around US$10,000 per video. This is not a recent figure, so maybe it's even more now.


----------



## storm-chaser (Aug 2, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> Whether you're merely an extremely stupid fanboy or a paid shill, it doesn't matter:
> 
> *THIS.
> THREAD.
> ...


The relevant topic is not relevant. Get it now? Make sense? They all do it, this is old news, your about 4000 years late to the game my friend.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> If anyone is curious, Linus charges around US$10,000 per video. This is not a recent figure, so maybe it's even more now.


Not surprising. He/they tend(s) to be pretty clear about what is and what isn't a sponsored video though, as well as typically avoiding sounding like outright shills even in sponsored videos. I definitely find GN's approach better, but you can't deny that LTT beats them hands down when it comes to polish and entertainment value. Each has their place, but one should also obviously be conscious of which of the two one lets inform ones opinions the most.


storm-chaser said:


> The relevant topic is not relevant. Get it now? Make sense? They all do it, this is old news, your about 4000 years late to the game my friend.


"Knowing" something to be common practice and being presented with specific evidence of this are not the same thing. One is an assumption (mostly) without proof, possibly based on previous evidence, but at best a generalization without real basis in fact. The other is a factual event or series of events. It should be obvious that the former can't actually be acted on without significant resources (such as an investigative team, lawyers, etc., which I assume none of us have access to), while the latter could and should be acted upon. If not, you are for all intents and purposes condoning said behavior. And, as both I've said and GN was quite clear on in this video: this is behavior that hurts the PC industry, hurts end users, and doesn't even really gain MSI in the long run. I get that one can become jaded by repeated showings of bad practices by various industry actors (hello, Intel, MS, Nvidia, etc.!), but at best your response reads as fatalism, and at worst (which IMO is the more accurate reading of your posts) apologism and arguing that as long as some of their products are good their other actions are of no importance.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Aug 2, 2020)

Valantar said:


> They might, you know, stick around to acknowledge that the basis for the discussion has changed, making their previous stance untenable? There are options beyond clamming up or doubling down, you know. That was the entire point of my comment, that people questioning the credibility of this all of a sudden seemed to go *poof* when it was corroborated, rather than saying something to the point of "Okay, that's settled then" and continuing the debate from there. It's hard not to read this as somehow trying to save face or avoid embarassment - as if changing your opinion when presented with evidence is somehow embarassing...


Nobody wants to be proven wrong and yes, in many cases it is embarrassing - especially if the true facts were easily verifiable. I don't find that fascinating. I see that as human nature.

What is fascinating to me (and it certainly is not limited to this thread) is how some, once shown definitive proof, refuse to accept or even acknowledge it. Many will continue to post total, unsubstantiated falsehoods. And they do so for 1 of 2 reasons. (1) They refuse to accept they could possibly be wrong and/or (2) they have engrained prejudices and biases against the company, person, country, etc. For example, some on this site will bash Microsoft or Intel any and every chance they get simply because they don't like those companies. Even when the subject has nothing to do with Microsoft (or Bill Gates) or Intel. Even if the "crime"    they are accused of is totally made up. They even make their own false claims - assuming all will believe them and not do our own research to verify the facts. We see this all the time here.

And worse, when provided proof they cannot refute, instead of debating the facts (or admitting they were wrong) , some launch into personal and puerile tirades  against the other poster. 


Hemmingstamp said:


> nor would I defend any other company tech related or otherwise.


If you see an injustice, you won't step up to defend against it?

I do and will defend any company (or person) who is falsely accused! Take Microsoft again. There are some on this site who automatically trash every MS product or policy, often with totally false claims, simply because they "don't trust Microsoft". Microsoft has done plenty genuinely offensive, stupid, misleading and shady stuff that they don't need anyone to make up false offensives. So I will defend MS when falsely accused, as I will Intel or anyone else. And then what happens? It often degrades with personal and puerile comments instead of presenting substantiating facts. 


TheLostSwede said:


> If anyone is curious, Linus charges around US$10,000 per video.


Oh? Got a link? I can't find any. Who is he charging? Are you claiming he charges companies to produce reviews? Is that what you are saying?

I don't think it is about what he charges, I think it is about what he "earns". And his videos "earn" about $10,000/day - but that is through viewers watching his videos. The more views, the more sponsors pay. And in his case, many of his videos have direct advertising at the end of his videos, just as a print magazine or TV show would have "ads" and "commercials". That is standard operating procedure and is NOT a reflection, one way or another, on the results of the review.  That's generally how it works - as seen here. 

****

Back to the topic of bad company behavior.

I had a 4 year old Gigabyte motherboard fail due to cheap, inferior, leaky caps. Gigabyte replaced the board for free even though the 3-year warranty expired. I like Gigabyte. I will continue to buy Gigabyte. 

I've used several different MSI motherboards and graphics cards over the years - with no problems. But now with this evidence of "*recurring*" bad behavior by the company, I don't like MSI. I likely will not buy MSI until I see things change.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> Nobody wants to be proven wrong and yes, in many cases it is embarrassing - especially if the true facts were easily verifiable. I don't find that fascinating. I see that as human nature.
> 
> What is fascinating to me (and it certainly is not limited to this thread) is how some, once shown definitive proof, refuse to accept or even acknowledge it. Many will continue to post total, unsubstantiated falsehoods. And they do so for 1 of 2 reasons. (1) They refuse to accept they could possibly be wrong and/or (2) they have engrained prejudices and biases against the company, person, country, etc. For example, some on this site will bash Microsoft or Intel any and every chance they get simply because they don't like those companies. Even when the subject has nothing to do with Microsoft (or Bill Gates) or Intel. Even if the "crime"   they are accused of is totally made up. They even make their own false claims - assuming all will believe them and not do our own research to verify the facts. We see this all the time here.
> 
> And worse, when provided proof they cannot refute, instead of debating the facts (or admitting they were wrong) , some launch into personal and puerile tirades against the other poster.


Well, "human nature" is highly debatable. Saying that is essentially just a fatalist response, saying people can't be better than knee-jerk responses. I don't believe that even for a minute. Sure, it's (a lot!) more difficult to admit you're wrong than to keep arguing or just go silent. But that is also why admitting fault actually says something about one's character - and why failing to do so thus says something in the opposite direction. One might say something about emotional maturity and so on here, but I'll just leave it at that. But there's hardly anything at all that can be called "human nature". There are behaviors that are easier than others to achieve, but that doesn't make them any more or less natural to us. Heck, given how we humans live these days, I'd say there are very few "natural" things about us beyond sleeping, breathing, eating and s*****ng. The rest is human _culture_.

And I agree that the doubling down on biases and falsehoods holds its own fascination - I'm quite fond of arguments like that precisely because they utterly fascinate me. I'm by no means free of biases, semi-conscious beliefs or even irrational yet conscious beliefs, but at least I try to know myself enough to actually identify those when they kick in. Some people seem to entirely lack that ability. Hatred of MS is a classic, hatred of Intel is indeed similar (though there are IMO more and better reasons to dislike Intel - but dislike or being consistently critical of someone isn't hatred, and definitely shouldn't lead to off-topic bashing!). Apple too, to a degree. Of course this also works in reverse; a lot of people have such an irrational adoration for something, or have an antagonism towards a specific line of argumentation that they bring it up and argue in defense of something that nobody else has even mentioned.


----------



## 95Viper (Aug 2, 2020)

Stay on the Topic!
Stop insulting others!
Have a Civil discussion.

Thank You, and, Have a good day


----------



## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> If you see an injustice, *you won't step up to defend against it?*
> 
> I do and will defend any company (or person) who is falsely accused! Take Microsoft again. There are some on this site who automatically trash every MS product or policy, often with totally false claims, simply because they "don't trust Microsoft". Microsoft has done plenty genuinely offensive, stupid, misleading and shady stuff that they don't need anyone to make up false offensives. So I will defend MS when falsely accused, as I will Intel or anyone else. And then what happens? It often degrades with personal and puerile comments instead of presenting substantiating facts.



No. I see no difference between them when it comes to business ethics.



Bill_Bright said:


> I've used several different MSI motherboards and graphics cards over the years - with no problems. But now with this evidence of "*recurring*" bad behavior by the company, I don't like MSI. I likely will not buy MSI until I see things change.



Just put some tape over the MSI logo. I doubt you'll notice after a while. 
And when the next scandal arrives, be sure to do the same with other brands you own.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> No. I see no difference between them when it comes to business ethics.
> 
> Just put some tape over the MSI logo. I doubt you'll notice after a while.
> And when the next scandal arrives, be sure to do the same with other brands you own.


... You get that feeling bad for previous decisions due to new information not specifically related to those decisions is quite irrational, right? If you have an MSI GPU and now feel like you wouldn't buy one in light of these revelations... then don't buy one. But don't feel bad about the one you own either - one can't be expected to act on information that one doesn't have, after all. Thinking "damn, I should maybe have picked another brand back then" would make sense, but then you move on. Let new knowledge inform future decisions, not make you regret past ones.

Also, while there is definitely truth to all large businesses being problematic, you're saying they're all the same, which is demonstrably untrue. This is not an either-or question, but a matter of degree. And of course there is a point to picking the lesser of two/five/ten/whatever evils. The brand of fatalism you're selling is the kind of attitude that ensures nothing ever gets better.


----------



## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

Valantar said:


> ... You get that feeling bad for previous decisions due to new information not specifically related to those decisions is quite irrational, right? If you have an MSI GPU and now feel like you wouldn't buy one in light of these revelations... then don't buy one. But don't feel bad about the one you own either - one can't be expected to act on information that one doesn't have, after all. Thinking "damn, I should maybe have picked another brand back then" would make sense, but then you move on. Let new knowledge inform future decisions, not make you regret past ones.
> 
> Also, while there is definitely truth to all large businesses being problematic, you're saying they're all the same, which is demonstrably untrue. This is not an either-or question, but a matter of degree. And of course there is a point to picking the lesser of two/five/ten/whatever evils. The brand of fatalism you're selling is the kind of attitude that ensures nothing ever gets better.



No. I don't do guilt trips and regret nothing. If I did, I'd discard everything I own and live in a cave lit by candles made from my own ear wax.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> Just put some tape over the MSI logo. I doubt you'll notice after a while.


This may have been said in jest but there is a lot of truth to it when it comes to computers. What components on a motherboard do the motherboard manufacturers actually make themselves? Very few, if any. They buy most if not all their components from other sources, then simply assemble them on the PCB. And not only that, because that PCB must fit inside a standard ATX compliant case, the assembly of those components are often standardized too. Protocols are standard. Code is licensed to ensure standardization and compliance to other codes, protocols and standards. 

The exact same chipsets, USB hubs, NICs, sound devices, VRMs, etc. are often used on boards from many different manufacturers. The same Seagate drives and Micron RAM is used. So is MSI at fault if one of those components fails in one of their systems? Does that mean an ASUS computer that uses the exact same component that doesn't fail is a superior computer? No. 

So yeah, once you assemble the computer, install the OS and your favorite programs, it is not likely you will notice the brand of the drive, RAM or motherboard anymore - at least not until you reboot and are reminded when you see the splash screen during the boot process. 

So this circles us back around to the thread topic and how the company's behavior affects us when things go wrong. 


Hemmingstamp said:


> No. I see no difference between them when it comes to business ethics.


But there is a difference. If Company A makes a great, very reliable and affordable thingamabob but has poor business ethics, you would say nothing if someone made false claims about that thingamabob? Even if you knew for a fact that thingamabob was a great, reliable product? Even though you knew that false information could lead another to make a poor purchase decision?


----------



## Hemmingstamp (Aug 2, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> This may have been said in jest but there is a lot of truth to it when it comes to computers. What components on a motherboard do the motherboard manufacturers actually make themselves? Very few, if any. They buy most if not all their components from other sources, then simply assemble them on the PCB. And not only that, because that PCB must fit inside a standard ATX compliant case, the assembly of those components are often standardized too. Protocols are standard. Code is licensed to ensure standardization and compliance to other codes, protocols and standards.
> 
> The exact same chipsets, USB hubs, NICs, sound devices, VRMs, etc. are often used on boards from many different manufacturers. The same Seagate drives and Micron RAM is used. So is MSI at fault if one of those components fails in one of their systems? Does that mean an ASUS computer that uses the exact same component that doesn't fail is a superior computer? No.
> 
> ...



If we all witnessed how these minerals to make these components are gained I dare say barely any piece of tech would be sold. Same goes for all consumables.
What you don't know won't hurt you and all that..........

Regarding the boot splash. I disabled it because it looked as if a kid had made it in MS paint. 
Said it before so I'll say it again. Non of them have ethics when money is involved.  It's better, it's faster, buy it, buy it now. Then it's, hang on, there isn't much difference from it's predecessor. Then it's all forgotten.



Bill_Bright said:


> But there is a difference. If Company A makes a great, very reliable and affordable thingamabob but has poor business ethics, you would say nothing if someone made false claims about that thingamabob? Even if you knew for a fact that thingamabob was a great, reliable product? Even though you knew that false information could lead another to make a poor purchase decision?



I never recommend products to anyone. The only thing I will say if asked is this. "It works fine for me, buy it at your peril"


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> No. I don't do guilt trips and regret nothing. If I did, I'd discard everything I own and live in a cave lit by candles made from my own ear wax.


You apparently didn't read my post at all. Did I say you should regret your previous actions? Quite the opposite:


Valantar said:


> Thinking "damn, I should maybe have picked another brand back then" would make sense, but then you move on. Let new knowledge inform future decisions, not make you regret past ones.


Again: you seem to see the world in black or white rather than shades of grey. It is entirely possible to have a nuanced perspective on both goings-on in the world and one's own actions without succumbing to regret, doubt and self-loathing, while still avoiding the kind of blasé fatalism you're espousing.


----------



## Vario (Aug 2, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> I see this as the norm in most Asian industries where a bribe is often overt and expected.



Pay to play seems to happen with a lot of tech.  Another issue is slave labor for assembly.  Furthermore, there are only a few big companies actually manufacturing these components for the different brands.


storm-chaser said:


> *MSI MEG Z490 Unify*


Very OT, but while the board VRM is tantalizing for its specifications, consider that most of the reviews I have seen for that board have it overclocking either exactly the same or worse as other Z490 boards.  Additionally I believe that it does not have an IGPU, if that is a feature you want (surprisingly useful if your videocard fails and you need to troubleshoot or eliminate possible culprits in an unstable system).


----------



## Bill_Bright (Aug 2, 2020)

Hemmingstamp said:


> I never recommend products to anyone. The only thing I will say if asked is this. "It works fine for me, buy it at your peril"


I sure cannot find fault in that. But my point is not about recommending products. It is about ensuring others have the true facts (not false hoods), and all the facts so they can made informed decisions on their own. 

Here's a generic example we often see in these forums. 

A poster comes in saying he is getting a CPU that comes with a supplied OEM cooler, and he states he has no intention of overclocking. There will still be some who jump in exclaiming something to the effect that all OEM coolers are junk and the OP needs to buy an aftermarket cooler. That's just nonsense. The OP would end up spending good money on something he or she does not need. The true facts are, today's OEM coolers are more than adequate at providing decent cooling, if properly mounted, if not excessive overclocking and when used in a properly cooled case. So I will defend the use of OEM coolers when posters are given misinformation like that. 

Having said that - we have drifted OT again. This is about MSI, the company and not their products. And I personally think that topic has run its course. So I'm hitting the bicycle trails. Have a good day.


----------



## 95Viper (Aug 2, 2020)

Again, one last time... discuss the topic and not each other.

Thank You


----------



## John Naylor (Aug 2, 2020)

I totally ignore youtubers, unless they have on online "written reviews site".     It's all about hits ... and every one wants to get to the point where they can move out of  mom's basement, collect the dough and live  alife like the "Girld Gone Wild" guy.   The faith that folks put in you tube reviews despite what they show is behond me.  How does JayZ, for example, have any credibility left after drilling thru a MoBo to mount a cooler.  I don't understand the thought process which has folks writing off a claim by a forum poster or youtuber w/o verification and corroboration.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> I totally ignore youtubers, unless they have on online "written reviews site".     It's all about hits ... and every one wants to get to the point where they can move out of  mom's basement, collect the dough and live  alife like the "Girld Gone Wild" guy.   The faith that folks put in you tube reviews despite what they show is behond me.  How does JayZ, for example, have any credibility left after drilling thru a MoBo to mount a cooler.  I don't understand the thought process which has folks writing off a claim by a forum poster or youtuber w/o verification and corroboration.


Did you mean to say "I don't understand the thought process which has folks writing off *a company based on a* claim from a forum poster or youtuber w/o verification and corroboration"? That's the only way that sentence makes sense to me in light of the rest of your post. And if that is what you meant to say, we do have verification and corroboration from GamersNexus (post #117 in this thread), which while being a YT channel started out as (and continues to be) a written article site, and is generally seen as about as unbiased and trustworthy as tech reviewers get.


----------



## Assimilator (Aug 2, 2020)

Valantar said:


> Did you mean to say "I don't understand the thought process which has folks writing off *a company based on a* claim from a forum poster or youtuber w/o verification and corroboration"? That's the only way that sentence makes sense to me in light of the rest of your post. And if that is what you meant to say, we do have verification and corroboration from GamersNexus (post #117 in this thread), which while being a YT channel started out as (and continues to be) a written article site, and is generally seen as about as unbiased and trustworthy as tech reviewers get.



GN only switched to YT because too many people don't read nowadays.


----------



## Valantar (Aug 2, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> GN only switched to YT because too many people don't read nowadays.


Pretty much, yeah. I also find their written articles a bit ... tedious, to be honest. And this is from someone who _loves _to read 10-page technical deep dives on AnandTech. GN just reads a bit dry. On the other hand, Steve is eminently charismatic in his own way, and is perfectly suited for hosting and presenting their type of content. Just my opinion though; there are obviously still (good!) reasons to prefer the written articles.


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 3, 2020)

robot zombie said:


> I've never had any bad hardware from them or any of the other big guns for that matter. I'd only have faith in MSI if they fixed their broken website.




I have 0 issues with their website, when I got all the stuff I needed for my MSI X570 tomahawk it all downloaded fine and was easy to navigate.  nothing else from their site i need so meh


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