# Remember when "Building Your Own" Made Financial Sense ?



## John Naylor (Nov 12, 2018)

There were three major reasons why the "Build Your Own" culture developed:

1.  You had more control of parts selection
2.  You wound up knowing more about and could add an aesthetic flair to your build
3.  It was cheaper 

Well make that 2 reasons.... with tariffs looming here in US, heres' what we are facing

A.  Dell has a box built overseas at below living wage labor rates, imports it here .... a)  they pay no tariff charge and b) their tax rate was just cut from 39.6 to 20%.

B.  Mom and Pop shop builds to your specs, buys the parts individually and pays a 30 (or 35) % tariff on them ... far more than their typical 15% labor cost.  Their tax rates are much higher % wise.

C.  I buy the parts including the 30% tariff  and build it myself.   Despite my time investment, it's cheaper now to buy a Dell.

So how exactly is this tariff helping anyone here at home ?   It basically insures that all assembly labor will be done overseas.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/280356-if-youre-planning-to-build-a-pc-youd-best-build-soon


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## LFaWolf (Nov 12, 2018)

I thought tariff on China imports is only 10% until Jan 1 2019? Then it becomes 25%. How did you get 30%?


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I thought tariff on China imports is only 10% until Jan 1 2019? Then it becomes 25%. How did you get 30%?



I've always heard 30.


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## Divide Overflow (Nov 12, 2018)

Sounds like a rant against tariffs more than anything else.  Assembly labor was being done overseas long before any tariffs.  I'd still build my own due to points 1 & 2 and system builder markups are typically much higher than the temporary 10% tariff.


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## LFaWolf (Nov 12, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've always heard 30.


No? I am reading this wrong?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/us/politics/trump-china-tariffs-trade.html


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 12, 2018)

It's liable to get more expensive for Dell too if US-China don't reach an agreement soon.  Trump said he's going to put a tariff on virtually everything (about $500 billion worth of goods).

Many manufacturers are already moving component production to Taiwan to avoid the tariffs.


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## Bones (Nov 12, 2018)

I too would still build my own. 
Even if it's cheaper..... It's a Dell and I don't want that period.


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## hat (Nov 12, 2018)

I'd expect both the finished product (Dell) or the components to do it yourself to be tariffed... in any case, I've already been surprised by the affordability of those Dell desktops, for a basic system anyway. Now once you start getting into high power systems, the costs increase greatly.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

Divide Overflow said:


> Sounds like a rant against tariffs more than anything else.  Assembly labor was being done overseas before any tariffs.  I'd still build my own due to points 1 & 2.



Same here, 

political smear this topic is...


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## phanbuey (Nov 12, 2018)

building your own still makes financial sense... even if you buy a dell, you're getting a super crappy motherboard, no OC potential, bad PSU that cant support upgrades, and a case that looks like it belongs in a school library.

My friend just got a super cheap hp gtx 1060 i5 7400 rig... that thing overheats in a normal game.... and doesnt support the ram that i could give him.

If you're going super budge then buy used parts (cheaper, better performance), if you're going alienware + pricing $1k+up then building yourself still makes sense.

The only time it doesnt make sense is if you're going 2080ti and you need a rig from scratch, then buying a custom prebuilt might be better.


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> No? I am reading this wrong?
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/us/politics/trump-china-tariffs-trade.html



Nope, you aren't.  Just sayin' what the word on my street was.  Aparently, people on the street like to round up. 



eidairaman1 said:


> political smear this topic is...



It's also super relevant to our field.  Whether or not the orange man did it or not and regardless of the reasons, it hurts us all in the wallet and that is fact.

I mean, if that's smear...  I must be getting old.  I remember when smearing people used lies not facts.

That being said, I don't think it's been cost effective for a while.  I can afford 25% more for the ability to choose my parts personally.


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## AsRock (Nov 12, 2018)

Even if you pay more it's worth building your self, knowing what you own, learning experience.

As some one else said Tariff rant.



R-T-B said:


> Nope, you aren't.  Just sayin' what the word on my street was.  Aparently, people on the street like to round up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hurting us giving work to everyone but our self's, even more so when they screwing us on tariffs.  Same old shit in the UK.

The Orange man is a business man and tells it how it is and people get all Trump derangement.


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## dorsetknob (Nov 12, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I mean, if that's smear... I must be getting old. I remember when smearing people used lies not facts.


ain't that the best sort of smear


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

AsRock said:


> Even if you pay more it's worth building your self, knowing what you own, learning experience.
> 
> As some one else said Tariff rant.
> 
> ...



They all get butt hurt and need to get over themselves and grow up. Budget is better than none. 

Just save up when buying parts. I had to in 2014 when I built my rig, couldnt buy it all at once.


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## sepheronx (Nov 12, 2018)

Prior to the Tariff Threats, when the GPU mining was at its prime (what, half a year ago?) and GPU prices were through the roof - buying pre-made systems were also cheaper option.  Mix the RAM prices with GPU prices and it created just a mess for buyers of enthusiasts.  It was technically cheaper for me to purchase a Dell XPS that was on discount (sometimes $300 off) with a GTX 1060 6gb or a RX480 8gb than building a whole new system.

What I did was simply purchase old used dells, rip out the components I wanted/needed, and then individually purchased parts.  Mostly used graphics cards.  So far it worked in my favor.  Exception was the motherboard in my system specs which was good price, but coming from Netherlands ended up costing me an arm and a leg for shipping and border fees - came out to close to $200 for it.  But I got a 4770 for $150 and that came with a whole computer - 8gb of ram, 320gb HDD (can be re-used obviously), some old GPU that can be re-used, etc etc.

I can only say that now you guys will get screwed on prices like we have up here in Canada.  I worry it will just get worst for us though.


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## Jetster (Nov 12, 2018)

Its never been cheaper to DIY. Not unless your buying used. Large companies buy in bulk and use cheap parts. A small PC business cannot complete with the big outlets like Dell and HP. They have to do better work using premium parts and customs builds

As reported by the BBC, the United States is set to impose a 25% tariff on over 800 categories of Chinese goods. Thousands of different products are covered under this new tariff, and by every account, electronic designers will be hit hard. Your BOM cost just increased by 25%.


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## trog100 (Nov 12, 2018)

a trade war is one shot short of shooting war.. trade and commerce is now being weaponized with the US arrogant enough to think it has the power to decide who trades with who.. 

build your own or not its all gonna cost more.. 

trog


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## sepheronx (Nov 12, 2018)

trog100 said:


> a trade war is one shot short of shooting war.. trade and commerce is now being weaponized with the US arrogant enough to think it has the power to decide who trades with who..
> 
> build your own or not its all gonna cost more..
> 
> trog



well, there wont be a shooting war between the powers (US, Russia & China) since you know, nuclear weapons.  So the next best thing? trying to tank each others economies.

US is worlds biggest consumers.  That is evident by their trade (im)balance (Almost $1T deficit in trade per year).  China has the advantage of population but not one that can be 1) Big spenders (currently) and 2) willing to have growing personal debt in order to have the goods.  But once average Chinese decides to spend more than they make (rely on credit) and or make significantly more money, then they will end up being the biggest consumers (will be a battle between them and India of course).

It will affect us in Canada too.  We have agreed to US demands in the NAFTA agreements and we no longer control our foreign relations.  US has decided for us if we can or cannot trade with who we want.  Cant say I blame the US for this.  It is our own governments fault.


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## Frick (Nov 12, 2018)

AsRock said:


> The Orange man is a business man and tells it how it is and people get all Trump derangement.



A country isn't a business so that wouldn't be a merit for him even if he was a good one.



Jetster said:


> Its never been cheaper to DIY. Not unless your buying used. Large companies buy in bulk and use cheap parts. A small PC business cannot complete with the big outlets like Dell and HP. They have to do better work using premium parts and customs builds



I think it's from a gamers perspective, in which case it absolutely has been true from a pure performance per [currency] perspective.


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## Basard (Nov 12, 2018)

The guy from Long Island complaining about component prices??  My 8700k is more valuable than a month of rent for this studio that I live in.


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## UnCaged (Nov 12, 2018)

For me,  a gamer, it was always about getting the best bang for the buck. Not getting the cheapest parts but performance based hardware that is stable, compatible (with the rest of the build) and upgradable which Dell, HP and most other off the self Pc builders are not. 

Personally, I am at a crossroads now with my build decisions. I just built a PC last year and planned to upgrade with a second 1080 next spring but after reading about the new Nvidia RTX 2070 I was going to wait for the cost to come down and just get one of the new cards as SLI doesn't really give you a 1-1 bump in performance anyway. But that may be out of the question with a 25-30% increase in price I might be out of luck next year and just put the upgrade off for another year which stinks for me and ticks me off.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

trog100 said:


> a trade war is one shot short of shooting war.. trade and commerce is now being weaponized with the US arrogant enough to think it has the power to decide who trades with who..
> 
> build your own or not its all gonna cost more..
> 
> trog



Actually it does.



UnCaged said:


> For me,  a gamer, it was always about getting the best bang for the buck. Not getting the cheapest parts but performance based hardware that is stable, compatible (with the rest of the build) and upgradable which Dell, HP and most other off the self Pc builders are not.
> What bothers me about the tariffs is how the money gained is going to be used or not used. Will it be used to bring back jobs to the U.S. or make our workers and our companies more competitive?
> I highly doubt it. The Orange man will find a way to line the pockets of the rich yet again giving the working man the shaft yet again...
> 
> Personally, I am at a crossroads now with my build decisions. I just built a PC last year and planned to upgrade with a second 1080 next spring but after reading about the new Nvidia RTX 2070 I was going to wait for the cost to come down and just get one of the new cards as SLI doesn't really give you a 1-1 bump in performance anyway. But that may be out of the question with a 25-30% increase in price I might be out of luck next year and just put the upgrade off for another year which stinks for me and ticks me off knowing the Orange man has found a way of screwing me over again.



Save up then duh.


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## Tom.699 (Nov 12, 2018)

IMO "Build Your Own" is still and always be less expensive that buying prebuild.
If you buy/build you first computer it may be not clear what is cheaper but in the long run whenever you upgrade you can upgrade only few components while buying prebuild you pay for whole new system
1. PSU and case will last you years. Invest in good PSU and it will serve you few years, maybe up to 10, biggest issue may be cabling if new system needs connectors that are not present on old PSU. Case you can keep forever until you feel like changing because you like new design.
2. Memory usually lasts thru couple of upgrades.
3. Storage, I always buy my hard drives (now only SSD-s) wherever I need more of faster storage. Pretty much always they stay in new system

So, yea, fist one is a toss but after that you save money buying only components you want to upgrade.


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## mcraygsx (Nov 12, 2018)

Only reason I would buy DELL or any other prebuild system is because of one stop Warranty/Tech Support. Something my parents would love to have. When something goes wrong in custom build system they will not have to deal with troubleshooting, diagnosis or repairs. There are many reasons to pick prebuild e.g. warranty, financing options, built to spec, compatibility assurance, customer support, etc.

But none of the above advantages are more exciting then building a custom PC yourself every once a year.  .

My GF has Apple 27" iMAC which we purchased from BB and cost over $1950 but systems spec are nothing compare to my custom build PC with far better specs for similar price.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 12, 2018)

The only pre built i ever owned was a pentium75 olivetti envision, it looked like a hifi seperate and got repossessed due to a payment dispute.
Taught me one thing, they are built to a price and without later upgrades in mind at all.
Me built all the way since then.


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## dirtyferret (Nov 12, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I've always heard 30.



Depends on the product.  We make and import small electronics (non-PC related) from China and our tariffs are going up from 3.9 to 13.9 on 1-1-19.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> The only pre built i ever owned was a pentium75 olivetti envision, it looked like a hifi seperate and got repossessed due to a payment dispute.
> Taught me one thing, they are built to a price and without later upgrades in mind at all.
> Me built all the way since then.



My first was a Slot 1 Celeron 333 in a Mid/Baby AT case from a Local PC shop in Houston back in 98


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 12, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> My first was a Slot 1 Celeron 333 in a Mid/Baby AT case from a Local PC shop in Houston back in 98


Nice ,you posh git i could only dream of such power , think I was rocking a cyrix 286 homebuilt tatty thing with if i recall at that time.


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

AsRock said:


> The Orange man is a business man and tells it how it is



This need not be political.  Thats all I was saying.  However comments like this assure it most certainly will be...  please keep them away.


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## Deleted member 178884 (Nov 12, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> This need not be political.


Well technically it's already political by mentioning tariffs in the first post - you can't ignore the politics here they're going to come up and that's how it is.


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## Vario (Nov 12, 2018)

I remember a decade ago, Cyberpower PC had lower prices than Newegg on the same hobbyist parts and you got the machine prebuilt.  I serviced a friend's cyberpower machine and they did a good job building it.  

I don't think its ever been the greatest deal to build yourself.  For the average person, you can buy Dell outlet machines for a huge discount on building it yourself.  If they play games, just throw in a midrange graphics card.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 12, 2018)

Frick said:


> A country isn't a business



tell that to the clintons & obama

i think it is important to keep a realistic head when dealing with what might happen, or what will happen. right now, on newegg.com, a GTX2070 is $499. thats about 3 times less than when miners killed enthusiast PC culture for those of us without the massive budget to continue our hobby, so if it goes up another 20%, im cool with that, since i build a PC once every few years. If it gets too expensive to build one more often, id say to those bothered, "lets be glad were only talking about a hobby price hike, and not a "feeding our families" price hike". *first world problems*


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

Xx Tek Tip xX said:


> Well technically it's already political by mentioning tariffs in the first post



No.  You can discuss the economic pains of it without taking a political stance.  Not that I have confidence that will happen, but you can.



jboydgolfer said:


> tell that to the clintons & obama



Yep.  Not going to happen.


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## king of swag187 (Nov 12, 2018)

It still makes perfect financial sense, given that OEM's and Boutique's overprice their items by around 10% give or take compared to building it yourself. Besides making just financial sense, the customization options are literally endless


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> Nice ,you posh git i could only dream of such power , think I was rocking a cyrix 286 homebuilt tatty thing with if i recall at that time.




I Believe cyrix might of had a Superior part at that point too



R-T-B said:


> This need not be political.  Thats all I was saying.  However comments like this assure it most certainly will be...  please keep them away.



Tell that to the others then not just 1.


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Tell that to the others then not just 1.



It applies to everyone, obviously.  I was only replying to him because he quoted me directly.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 12, 2018)

I think the topic is interesting. And ironical in a way too.

Financially interesting to DIY PCs it was not really ever, though, was it? DIY PCs were never really cheaper than a store bought OEM box. I remember my parents buying one at the local supermarket one time, cheapest they could find for what it offered.

At the same time, from an enthusiast point of view, DIY PCs are definitely not financially interesting (let's keep mining out of this for now), its a waste of power, effort and money. We piss away money on overpriced components all the time. Look at the RGB craze. Look at the premium brands that consumer space has so many of in DIY parts.

I think the real motivation to DIY something has never changed and will not change in the future. You DIY because you believe it provides a greater sense of control and higher quality.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Nov 12, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> There were three major reasons why the "Build Your Own" culture developed:
> 
> 1.  You had more control of parts selection
> 2.  You wound up knowing more about and could add an aesthetic flair to your build
> ...


For small office boxes for basic content, pre built has been cheaper then hand assembled for a LONG time. $300 complete boxes have been available for years now, building your own with similar specs always led to a box that cost a bit more AND was much larger physically, often with a cheap, bad looking case to top it off. Tariffs have nothing to do with those suddenly being cheaper then homemade PCs, they have been cheaper for the last 5-6 years at least. You just cant compete with chinese slave labor

(and lets be honest here, if you want a box for basic content, a used office desktop off of EBAY can be had for a fraction of new computer's costs. You can get an optiplex 7020 with a core i5 and 8GB of RAM for $150, practically brand new. Paying for a brand new content box is just silly).

That leaves high performance boxes. And honestly, are you really going to sit here and try to convince me that dell's alienware PCs are going to be somehow cheaper then a home assembled model? No way, go look at alienware's prices, or any pre built high end machine. Insane prices compared to home built.


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## Splinterdog (Nov 12, 2018)

I used to buy off the shelf from Evesham Micros many years ago because I was running a business and didn't have time to build them. But once I started upgrading components like memory and gfx, I got the bug and was smitten.
For me, it's not the cost but the flexibility. Besides, it's criminal the crap that big stores throw at unsuspecting non tech savvy customers, many of which come in for repair and it's often complete rubbish.


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> No way, go look at alienware's prices, or any pre built high end machine. Insane prices compared to home built.



Your looking at the wrong brands (Alienware has been cost effective since never).  You can easily find OEMs that will knock the socks off any home built build from a price/performance standpoint.  And it's been that way for a bit, really.  We do this (or at least I do) for the customization, control, and learning.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Nov 12, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Your looking at the wrong brands (Alienware has been cost effective since never).  You can easily find OEMs that will knock the socks off any home built build from a price/performance standpoint.  And it's been that way for a bit, really.  We do this (or at least I do) for the customization, control, and learning.


I do a lot of part new ,part old builds for people, to get them exactly what they want and need but to save money.
I tend to have more bits than i need and pass them out at good prices for example i bought 3 Rx580s to mine on as it ended, wasted money but three mates who actually gsme got less than half price bargains, that were in near new nick.


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## AsRock (Nov 12, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I Believe cyrix might of had a Superior part at that point too
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the others then not just 1.



He started the Orang man BS, then brings that up,  i have no issue with talking politics. but as you said everyone cannot deal with it their for cannot be talked about even though it is part of what's going on here with silly name calling which i am sure if you called it to his face he would just simply wave to them ).

Anyways done with this one sided crap.


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## John Naylor (Nov 12, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I thought tariff on China imports is only 10% until Jan 1 2019? Then it becomes 25%. How did you get 30%?



It was 30% ... then after complaints was dropped to 10% till after holidays ... then it goes back to 30% with some sources reporting 35% ... That's why I said "with tariffs **looming** here in US, heres' what we are facing [soon] "  We already are being hit with the 10%



Divide Overflow said:


> Sounds like a rant against tariffs more than anything else.  Assembly labor was being done overseas long before any tariffs.  I'd still build my own due to points 1 & 2 and system builder markups are typically much higher than the temporary 10% tariff.



If you want to call it a rant, be my guest if ya makes ya feel better.   But if you want to be accurate and stay within the stated focus of the post, it's solely about the reverse logic as it relates to the application of tariffs on this industry and this community.  While the tariff stategy as a whole is questionable, that has nothing to do with this thread.   This thread is about "why tariifs are being applied to PC parts and not entire PC's ?"

1.  What effect will a tariff on parts have ?   Logically a tariff is supposed to have the effect of encouraging the consumer to by an alternative made product.     How does that tariiff do that ?  Please go to PCpartpicker and make us a list off 100% made in USA products so we can all do the right thing.

2.  How does making entire PCs exempt from a tariiff serve to promote "Buy American" ?   If anything, it's going to promote buying ONLY from companies that do NOT make anything here.

The tariff as applied here does the exact opposite of what tariffs are intended to do.

1.  It's not creating American jobs, it's eliminating them
2.  It's taking purchasing power out of the hands of consumers resulting in them buying less.




LFaWolf said:


> No? I am reading this wrong?
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/us/politics/trump-china-tariffs-trade.html



Over the last month i saw +20% (over then 10%), then + 25% then + 15% ...



phanbuey said:


> building your own still makes financial sense... even if you buy a dell, you're getting a super crappy motherboard, no OC potential, bad PSU that cant support upgrades, and a case that looks like it belongs in a school library.



Dell, especially in laptops, will make some perty hi end stuff ... not what you find at Best Buy but the intent here was to address any major box builder... let's face it most PCs sold wind up in offices and and I don't see how exempting them from tariffs fits the role of tariifs.
\


eidairaman1 said:


> Same here,
> 
> political smear this topic is...



And yet, your only response is to attack the messenger ... only because the facts are unassailable.  I'll give ya another shot .... care to address the facts this time  ?   If it 's smear, you should be easily able to refute it with a logical factual response.


1.  I have orders for 6 new builds after people get their tax refunds.  I want to support the American economy so can you list the  companies I can buy the MoBos, SSDs, SSHDs and GFX cards from ?

2. Can you explain why exempting full built PC's should be excemp from the tariffs ?  How many jobs will this create ?




Jetster said:


> Its never been cheaper to DIY. Not unless your buying used. Large companies buy in bulk and use cheap parts. A small PC business cannot complete with the big outlets like Dell and HP. They have to do better work using premium parts and customs builds



I'm directing the question to the forum audience here .... which for the most part bulds their own PCs... but there is also Cyberpower and all the other US businesses who will be crushed by this.  How does Cyberpower and all the other custom builders compete when they and they alone are subject to a 25% penalty ?  What happens to all the people they employ.




Basard said:


> The guy from Long Island complaining about component prices??  My 8700k is more valuable than a month of rent for this studio that I live in.



I live out in farm country in a  200 year old dairy bar, I'm semi-retired, no mortgage and drive a 13 year old car and co-signed on $180k of college debt.  Why shouldn't having to spend 30% extra be a concern for me ?



R-T-B said:


> This need not be political.  Thats all I was saying.  However comments like this assure it most certainly will be...  please keep them away.



Agreed.  The concept of tariffs as a whole was never brought up. The duality and reverse logic of selectively applying tariffs to only parts was.    Tariffs have a specific function.  If you want to accomplish that intended function, then:

1.  Don't lay the tariffs on the products that will kill the American tech industry and reduce jobs; want to create more jobs then Cyberpower gets no tariffs since the build products here... just like the auto industry does.

2.  Lay the tariffs on companies that are using 100% Chinese labor instead of American Labor

3.  Putting a tariff on products that are available only from one source serves no purpose.  What's the game pan here... Keep increasing the tariff until US companies build fab plants here ?   What do we do in the interim ?

What can we do about it ?   There's no defense here, as we have already seen there is not one economic argument that makes sense  other than Dell, HP and company have some linked in lobbyists. But if this starts to be talked about by the mainstream media, I see both sides of the aisle questioning the logic here.   Reverse the applicability here, (tariff on assembled PCs / no tariff on parts) and everything makes sense again.



Vayra86 said:


> I think the topic is interesting. And ironical in a way too.
> 
> Financially interesting to DIY PCs it was not really ever, though, was it? DIY PCs were never really cheaper than a store bought OEM box. I remember my parents buying one at the local supermarket one time, cheapest they could find for what it offered.



It is if we talking apples and apples ...same parts list, to the letter

1.  I build myself
2.  I give local store the parts list and they build it for me for $125
3.  I buy from Computrade, CyberpowerPC or any other company that build PCs here in the states.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

AsRock said:


> He started the Orang man BS, then brings that up,  i have no issue with talking politics. but as you said everyone cannot deal with it their for cannot be talked about even though it is part of what's going on here with silly name calling which i am sure if you called it to his face he would just simply wave to them ).
> 
> Anyways done with this one sided crap.


 Agreed,

Better to be a free thinker than a communist where the gov tells when to blink and breathe, then they tax you for the air.


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## infrared (Nov 12, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Agreed,
> 
> Better to be a free thinker than a communist where the gov tells when to blink and breathe, then they tax you for the air.



You're basically calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a communist... Just take a moment and think about that.

As far as I can see these tariffs won't benefit you, and it won't hurt China either since only the buyer gets stung.. I'm glad you're so happy about paying more, just because your leader wants a 'trade war'. Thing is until you guys can mass produce electronics, you HAVE to buy parts from China. Putting a tariff in place when you don't have an in-house alternative is just ridiculous imo.


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## Kissamies (Nov 12, 2018)

Since I overclock anything I can, almost every PC which I've had has been built by me. I can choose a case which suits for my needs, I can get cables run nicely, I can get a good quality PSU..

Though I still need to change my case, because this Corsair Air 740 isn't that great for water cooling. 

edit: Damn! Checked the prices if I'd build a similar loop, it would be over 400eur.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

infrared said:


> You're basically calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a communist... Just take a moment and think about that.
> 
> As far as I can see these tariffs won't benefit you, and it won't hurt China either since only the buyer gets stung.. I'm glad you're so happy about paying more, just because your leader wants a 'trade war'. Thing is until you guys can mass produce electronics, you HAVE to buy parts from China. Putting a tariff in place when you don't have an in-house alternative is just ridiculous imo.



I didn't call anyone a communist I just set it out right.


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## R-T-B (Nov 12, 2018)

AsRock said:


> He started the Orang man BS



No, I actually said it was possible to talk about it without being political.  The exact statement you claim "started it" is.



> Whether or not the orange man did it or not and regardless of the reasons, it hurts us all in the wallet and that is fact.



If you have issue with that you have an issue with the facts and not the politics.

PS:  The current "Orange man bad" meme is generally used to mock liberals, not the other way around.  I was specifically trying not to offend by not referencing anyone by namev and saying politics could be avoided, but it seems that simply isn't going to happen here.



eidairaman1 said:


> Agreed,
> 
> Better to be a free thinker than a communist where the gov tells when to blink and breathe, then they tax you for the air.



Time for me to pull out my favorite chart.  Sad to have to use it here, I usually reserve it for reddit.  Let's see which logical violation you have commited today:

Looks like "Either/or" today, (with a possible side of straw man?):








eidairaman1 said:


> I didn't call anyone a communist I just set it out right.



I'm not a communist.  Begging the claim, above.

Can we return to the non-political discussion that was almost succesfully happening here before everyone got all off-track again?



R-T-B said:


> Your looking at the wrong brands (Alienware has been cost effective since never).  You can easily find OEMs that will knock the socks off any home built build from a price/performance standpoint.  And it's been that way for a bit, really.  We do this (or at least I do) for the customization, control, and learning.


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## rtwjunkie (Nov 12, 2018)

Xx Tek Tip xX said:


> Well technically it's already political by mentioning tariffs in the first post - you can't ignore the politics here they're going to come up and that's how it is.


It’s actually completely possible to talk about tarrifs without being political.  They are a fact of life and history. They’ve been around in most leading nations back over a thousand years.  One can make all comments fact based without personal opinion.


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## Frick (Nov 12, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> tell that to the clintons & obama



Sure, and every other preesident since what, the 20's? And every other government on the planet.


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 12, 2018)

infrared said:


> As far as I can see these tariffs won't benefit you, and it won't hurt China either since only the buyer gets stung.. I'm glad you're so happy about paying more, just because your leader wants a 'trade war'. Thing is until you guys can mass produce electronics, you HAVE to buy parts from China. Putting a tariff in place when you don't have an in-house alternative is just ridiculous imo.



i agree a trade war is never great, but, no nation could ever hope to win a trade war with the USA. And , although tariffs have the ability to cause price hikes, its also a way to spur competition between retailers/manufacturers. i wouldnt be surprised to see manufacturers start cutting their profit, instead of hiking their retail prices, for the privledge to compete in the Largest market in the world (making $90/unit profit, instead of $100/unit profit), for fear of another manufacturer doing it and cutting out the ones who wont. Tarriffs have hurt the USA in the past, so the precedent is there for bad things, but i refuse to make assumptions based on what HAS happened, & instead i look forward with hope for good outcomes, with a realization of the possibility of bad outcomes. in short, we'll see.


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## Frick (Nov 12, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I didn't call anyone a communist I just set it out right.



Just own up to the insult. No one will get it anyway as they're communist zombies!



jboydgolfer said:


> i but i refuse to make assumptions based on what HAS happened, & instead i look forward with hope for good outcomes, with a realization of the possibility of bad outcomes. in short, we'll see.



What's the definition of insanity again? 
(that was seriously a joke and actually not a political statement)


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## jboydgolfer (Nov 12, 2018)

Frick said:


> What's the definition of insanity again?



if thats how you define insanity.


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## John Naylor (Nov 13, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> Since I overclock anything I can, almost every PC which I've had has been built by me. I can choose a case which suits for my needs, I can get cables run nicely, I can get a good quality PSU..



Can't speak to Finland ... but here in US... Cyberpower is one of those that will build just about anything, many even overclock

1.  You can buy PCs overclocked
2.  You can choose your Case and PSU
3.  You can chose every single one of your components ... even on a lappie after starting with one of several Chassis / Screen Combos
4.  You can choose your case.
5.  You can even choose the cables.
6.  You can have them installed w/ combs and routed.

Some of those are gonna cost ya where extra labor is involved (1 and 6) but the others usually come at no additional cost other than parts prices.  I can see over in your neck of the woods, smaller population and significantly higher prices, there might not be room for this business model to succeed.

https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/CyberPower-Z370-i7-Configurator

While a few have been trying to make this a political discussion in and of itself, despite the narrowness of the original post .... the question remains ...

Assuming we are going to have a tariff, and forgetting the sensibility of that question, the scope here is limited ... *If you are going to put a tariff on PC related items ... Why put it on parts instead of pre-builts .. or tariff on both ?*  That's it.

1. Most parts aren't even made outside of China and those that are, at least partially, are not made in the USA.  If you have an economic justification for this, let's hear it.   How does this do anything more than cost consumers more money ?   Will 30% surcharge on parts shift jobs to the US ?  Are we really expecting fabs to be built, commissioned, workers trained here in the US in this decade ?  Where do trained employees come from (Immigrants via Class 1B Visas ?) What's the impact on US businesses like Cyberpower ?  What's the impact of the 10's of thousands of PC related service companies and mom / pop stores ?     Will not this just leave a lot of US workers unemployed ?

2.  OTOH, what does putting a tariff on pre-builts do..... it provides an opportunity for even more obscene profits.   Alienware was mentioned where upgrading from 8 to 16GB can cost you $275.   The lemmings that walk into BestBuy see a recognized name like Dell and scoop them up having no idea as to what they are buying won't notice.  But if that $2200 Alienware equivalent to that $1800 Cyberpower build is obscene, Alienware can now add $450 to the price because their US based competition is paying $480 more for their parts.   Put tariff on the pre-builts and there's an actual incentive for companies to move the labor / assembly here.

It's not about whether tariffs are a good idea; it's not a political "should they exist or not exist" discussion ... there's enough political propaganda in members avatars and sigs.  I don't see the value in responses consisting of nothing but name calling  w/o even addressing the topic.    We have to deal with ridiculous statements every day from both sides of the aisle in the press ... this week's best example "_By that do you mean sped up?   Well that's not altered.  That's sped up. They do it all the time in sports to see if there's actually a first down or a touchdown."_

It's simply about, if it's a given that there's gonna be a tariff to improve American jobs situation putting it on parts instead of pre-builts has the opposite effect.  It's gonna do the opposite of what they are saying it's gonna do ... just like the above ...  they don't speed up the film to see if it 's a first down, *they do the opposite; they slow it down* to see of the knee hit ground before the ball passed the line.   Again, I'm making no comment about the event which was being referred to so I hope folks can refrain from bringing in non-relevant propaganda regarding the event on either side.  What happened in that room is irrelevant.   The only relevance of that statement in this context i .... _ They do it [speed up the film] all the time in sports to see if there's actually a first down or a touchdown."_ .... is what was said and that is the direct opposite of what actually takes place with sports films.  Same here... a tariff on parts will not create jobs it will eliminate them.  No tariff on prebuilts will also eliminate jobs as it destroys any incentive to assemble here.

I dare say when this hits the mainstream press, elected leaders will have  a hard time defending this duality.  Not saying I agree with it but I can see and argument for a "tariff on pre-builts", I can see a "tariff on both parts and prebuilts" ... a tariff on parts only makes as much sense as speeding up a film helps you see better.  Somebody goofed with the statement and someone goofed w/ the parts only idea.


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## Kissamies (Nov 13, 2018)

It sucks how politics have effect on normal people's purchases.


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## rtwjunkie (Nov 13, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> Can't speak to Finland ... but here in US... Cyberpower is one of those that will build just about anything, many even overclock
> 
> 1.  You can buy PCs overclocked
> 2.  You can choose your Case and PSU
> ...


In summary you got a lot of the points correct, and even tried to make it just a discussion on the results. Bravo

However, your premise for a tarrif is wrong. It is not about getting jobs back.  Tarrifs are about access.  China has been very limiting about what the U.S. can import to China.  Costs are astronomical to export to China. They mostly only allow U.S. products to be sold if they are produced there.  

But they have always insisted the U.S. allow their products to be exported to the U.S.  past U.S. governments run by both parties have always been more than happy to just bend over and get their ass kicked, and let it continue and continue, until the trade imbalance was completely bonkers.  

The tarrif is a punitive measure that should eventually cause China to relent on their unfair actions, allowing more imports.  Once they realize they can’t bully the U.S., because A) they need the huge market, and B) they need to feed their people, then tarrifs can be removed and everyone is happy.  

To have continued to allow the Chinese to have whatever they want in trade “agreements” would have amounted to economic suicide eventually.


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## trog100 (Nov 13, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> In summary you got a lot of the points correct, and even tried to make it just a discussion on the results. Bravo
> 
> However, your premise for a tarrif is wrong. It is not about getting jobs back.  Tarrifs are about access.  China has been very limiting about what the U.S. can import to China.  Costs are astronomical to export to China. They mostly only allow U.S. products to be sold if they are produced there.
> 
> ...



could well be its a bit late.. it was said years ago that power is moving from the west to the east.. we have benefited with all the cheap stuff from china they work harder than we do and they work cheaper..

economic warfare will lead to bad things for every bugger concerned.. the future aint looking very bright.. he he

trog


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## rtwjunkie (Nov 13, 2018)

trog100 said:


> could well be its a bit late.. it was said years ago that power is moving from the west to the east.. we have benefited with all the cheap stuff from china they work harder than we do and they work cheaper..
> 
> economic warfare will lead to bad things for every bugger concerned.. the future aint looking very bright.. he he
> 
> trog


I’m not getting pulled into a pro or con. I merely identified what the tarrifs are about and why it got to that point.


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## R-T-B (Nov 13, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> if thats how you define insanity.



It was Einstiens definition, if I can attribute correctly.  But I give up.  Lock this thread.  We've completely lost sight of the non-political issues at stake here.


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## eidairaman1 (Nov 13, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> Can't speak to Finland ... but here in US... Cyberpower is one of those that will build just about anything, many even overclock
> 
> 1.  You can buy PCs overclocked
> 2.  You can choose your Case and PSU
> ...



You do realize no one is going to read a wall of text like that


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## Divide Overflow (Nov 13, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> If you want to call it a rant, be my guest if ya makes ya feel better.   But if you want to be accurate and stay within the stated focus of the post, it's solely about the reverse logic as it relates to the application of tariffs on this industry and this community.  While the tariff stategy as a whole is questionable, that has nothing to do with this thread.   This thread is about "why tariifs are being applied to PC parts and not entire PC's ?"
> 
> 1.  What effect will a tariff on parts have ?   Logically a tariff is supposed to have the effect of encouraging the consumer to by an alternative made product.     How does that tariiff do that ?  Please go to PCpartpicker and make us a list off 100% made in USA products so we can all do the right thing.
> 
> ...


Just calling a spade a spade.  I get no satisfaction out of this one way or the other.  
You're now bringing up American made components, buying American, creating American jobs and the purchasing power of American consumers.  If that isn't the topic of a political discussion, I don't know what is.  What effect will the tarrif have?  That's very clear.  A temporary increase in prices.  But the industry is already looking to adapt and adjust to this, as evident in this recent Digitimes article.


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 13, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> Assuming we are going to have a tariff, and forgetting the sensibility of that question, the scope here is limited ... *If you are going to put a tariff on PC related items ... Why put it on parts instead of pre-builts .. or tariff on both ?*  That's it.


Because tariffs are scheduled.  Electronic components are scheduled, consumer electronics are not.  Tarriffed or not, respectively, but as I said, the latter is liable to change.  The tariffs started off narrow in scope (steel and aluminum, then industrial equipment, then components) and Trump has threatened to expand the tariffs to include just about everything China exports to the USA if they aren't getting close to an agreement by the end of the year.

The tariffs are having their intended affect.  China's manufacturing sector barely grew in the last quarter (down to 0.2% on October).

Production spiked in 2017 and early 2018 because of preparation for the tariffs.  The peak is likely not to be as high by the end of this year and much lower next year:


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## R-T-B (Nov 13, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> You do realize no one is going to read a wall of text like that



*sighs*

I remember when people actually appreciated thought out posts.  I do,  still.  And hate to break your theory but his post is more on topic than 90% of them here and thus got a read from me.

Yes, there are politics in it.  But I mean, that ship sailed long ago...


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## Frick (Nov 13, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> You do realize no one is going to read a wall of text like that



Rather that than posts without punctuation and grammar.


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 13, 2018)

It should be added that tariffs are taxes levied and collected by Uncle Sam.  Taxes can be refunded or invested.  Case in point: Trump responded to China's asinine import tariffs on soybeans with increased subsidies to farmers that were hugely impacted by their retaliatory tariffs.  In other words, your purchase of tariffed computer components is going towards making sure we don't lose skilled laborers that keep our bellies full.  Tariffs are fantastic compared to estate, property, and death taxes.  Not for free trade, of course, but China earned this by leeching off of the USA for decades.  Free trade must be a two way street or it is not mutually beneficial; it's parasitic.


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## GlacierNine (Nov 13, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> You do realize no one is going to read a wall of text like that


Here's a post that's short enough you might be able to digest it:

It's 842 words. It's not that long. Get a grip.


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## Mac2580 (Dec 24, 2018)

I would never go for a pre-built PC for one reason. I always (Since my Pentium 4) mismatch GFX card and CPU at first, and upgrade GPU over time. I live in South Africa, so comparisons are difficult. For reference, a GTX 1060 is currently 50%-60% of the price I paid last year.

Edit: Pre-builts are definitely cheaper here as well and better value/peace of mind for parents, and cheaper short term. I wont deny that a i3-7100 would perform equal for cheaper right now.
Since its only been a year and a half and core count on the new i7 has doubled, I have some worries, but CPU still pushes over 100FPS at everything.


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 24, 2018)

Mac2580 said:


> I would never go for a pre-built PC for one reason. I always (Since my Pentium 4) mismatch GFX card and CPU at first, and upgrade GPU over time. I live in South Africa, so comparisons are difficult. For reference, a GTX 1060 is currently 50%-60% of the price I paid last year.



Ryzen Raven Ridge is Changing that.


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## fullinfusion (Dec 24, 2018)

@John Naylor, building a computer.... it has been nothing more then a leaky tap.... (money trap) always buying!  I myself ride the wave and WAIT! I just wish I could Get the wave right now.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 24, 2018)

Mac2580 said:


> I would never go for a pre-built PC for one reason. I always (Since my Pentium 4) mismatch GFX card and CPU at first, and upgrade GPU over time. I live in South Africa, so comparisons are difficult. For reference, a GTX 1060 is currently 50%-60% of the price I paid last year.
> 
> Edit: Pre-builts are definitely cheaper here as well and better value/peace of mind for parents, and cheaper short term. I wont deny that a i3-7100 would perform equal for cheaper right now.
> Since its only been a year and a half and core count on the new i7 has doubled, I have some worries, but CPU still pushes over 100FPS at everything.


My problem with prebuilts is they love to use proprietary components which makes servicing them a pain.  If it's not proprietary, it's BTX, and there's little in the way of BTX support in the aftermarket.  What it boils down to is a simple question for me: do I want an appliance or not?  Prebuilts are appliances where custom built can evolve over time.  Short term prebuilt is usually cheaper but long term, it is not.  Gaming consoles are cheaper up front for the same reason.


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 24, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> My problem with prebuilts is they love to use proprietary components which makes servicing them a pain.  If it's not proprietary, it's BTX, and there's little in the way of BTX support in the aftermarket.  What it boils down to is a simple question for me: do I want an appliance or not?  Prebuilts are appliances where custom built can evolve over time.  Short term prebuilt is usually cheaper but long term, it is not.  Gaming consoles are cheaper up front for the same reason.



Some prebuilts can be upgraded.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 24, 2018)

Vendors like Cyberpower that build machines from off the shelf parts, yeah.  Most OEMs have free PCIe and (SO-)DIMM slots.  I'm talking motherboard and power supply mostly.  If the motherboard or power supply fails, either you have to buy the replacement part second hand or spend a small fortune to have the OEM repair it.  The latter, the system might as well be considered totaled if it is out of warranty.


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 24, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Vendors like Cyberpower that build machines from off the shelf parts, yeah.  Most OEMs have free PCIe and (SO-)DIMM slots.  I'm talking motherboard and power supply mostly.  If the motherboard or power supply fails, either you have to buy the replacement part second hand or spend a small fortune to have the OEM repair it.  The latter, the system might as well be considered totaled if it is out of warranty.



I know a lot of hps were like that, dells not so much


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## Bones (Dec 24, 2018)

One thing I hate about Dell's and HP's is the fact many of their key components are proprietary which basically means "Bend Over" if you need a component to be upgraded or replaced. Some models they make are fairly user-friendly that way but some are not. The thing is since many Dell's and such are made of proprietary components they can charge a much higher price since they would be the only source for said parts period and that's how they want it. 

After I paid $1700 for the very first computer I ever owned back in the good 'ol days of Socket 370/A I learned how and been doing it ever since for far less. 
Still have the case, board and CPU from it, the board and CPU still works to this day but beyond useless by now for anything that one could use it for.


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## AurumExtreme3_870 (Feb 16, 2019)

Hey I know this be a young thread necro but power supplies on prebuilt units are usually made by Delta/Hipro and they have good build quality excluding the bad capacitor era (Until 2006).
Hell,excluding the Motherboard killing ATX-250E Bestec makes decent Oem power supplies. The only thing limiting them in upgradeability is mostly the lack of pci-e connectors or they lack the headroom due to being tailored only for the stock hardware configuration.


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## John Naylor (Feb 16, 2019)

Yes, this is true of most things you find on big box store shelves.   But, if you choose a custom builder, things change.

Since the post has been made, more and more companies have been speaking out, some have decided to close up shop.  NZXT's Jim Carlton said ""If it's a $2,000 purchase on 25 percent tariffs, it's going to be a $2,500 purchase\, .... So we are very concerned with the direction of where this is going,,,"I don't have a 10 percent [profit] margin I can just throw away and absorb the tariffs," he added. "And certainly no one has a margin for 25 percent."

Cyberpower's CEO Eric Cheung said "In our company's 20-year history, the proposed Section 301 Tariff Action is the greatest threat to our company's survivability to ever arise," Cyberpower said in a public letter to US trade authorities. ... As a small business, we are already facing tremendous pressure from large global manufacturers like HP/Dell/Apple, which has a greater capacity to absorb these increased costs from the new tariffs".

So what that essentially means is .... the option of getting a pre-built w/a PSU of your choosing is getting harder.    How many are gong to pay that premium when getting a box built on US by US labor is $2500 and the tariff free one in BestBuy with the same primary components is $2000 ?

MSI, Asus, Gigabyte, Intel etc are moving manufacturing to Taiwan and other places which doesn't help anything here.  Back in 2010 "Other" manufacturers were shipping 36 million units a year.  Te big boys were doing less than half that each ...HP (36), Acer (12), Dell (10), Lenovo (8), Asus (4), Toshiba (4).  In 2018 "Others" were down to 16 million, HP and lenovo (14), Dell (10) and the rest  ... Acer, Asus, and Apple (4)... That decline can be traced to many reasons, part of it being the 'build your own" has gotten much easier, but PC builders will not be able to compete with a 30% penalty for building things here.

I haven't heard much on the topic since they agreed to a 90 day extension which I guess keeps the tariff set at 10% till end of March.  That's the good news, ... newgg just started charging tax in my state so I'm up 18.62% for parts since last year.... which was never a big deal as when taxes were paid I could decuct them ... but for 2018, that deduction also went bye bye.  The logic of the tariifs on a whole is arguable and not the subject of this discussion ... but the levying of the tariiff on parts ONLY is just counter productive.  I expect they can weather the 10% for a short time, but if companies that build here in US will suffer a 25% penalty for using US labor,  to the US business community and the US labor force in this tech sector is in serious trouble.   Will put a big hurt on our economy in "factory" towns like City of Industry and more families will lose a wage earner.


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