# AVR with pre out has better value than Separates?



## sourcebound (Jul 28, 2016)

I recently bought an RXV 677 and I am using Tannoy Mercury F4 as my front. For improving the speakers Should i use the surround back output as biamp for front speakers in a 5.1 setup or is it possible to buy an amplifier just for the front channels and use the receiver's pre out for just the front channel? if so which amplifier is recommended?


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 28, 2016)

This is really too hard for anyone else to answer. We don't have your ears, know your sound environment or the rest of your setup (for example, sub, center, and rears). Nor do we know how you use your speakers (watching movies, background music or critical listening). And we don't know your budget. Nor your age. But even if we knew all that, we still don't have your ears.

Note in most scenarios, the rears are of much less importance than the fronts with music or movies.

Total separates (if you spend the money and buy wisely) will always provide better ear candy. But most people don't have the budgets or the discernable ear (especially as they get older) to really hear the differences compared to a decent receiver. And note our (humans) hearing sensitivity naturally begins to degrade starting around 18 - 20 years old - this is particularly true in the mids to high extremes.

Just about anything is possible if you have the money. But the RXV 677 is a decent receiver and the F4s are good speakers. You say you want to improve the speakers, how? What don't you like about them?

I have a nice set of front speaker and a Onkyo receiver in my own setup. I was actually very happy with the low ends of my speakers with music. But I wanted to improve the LFE while watching movies. I found a decent powered Velodyne subwoofer worked perfectly for that. With that setup, I could set the receiver to roll-off the low frequencies to the powered sub before the final amps in the receiver. This left all the receiver's power and dynamic range for the mids and highs to go to my main fronts, center and rears and it sounded great, much better than before I added the sub. I was surprised how much it improved.  

I suppose part of the total sound quality improvement was due to the "placebo effect" and my own personal biases and expectations. That's why proper listening tests and comparisons are "double blind" the listener/reviewer does not know and cannot see what they are listening to. But to my ears, just adding a good powered sub greatly improved the overall audio quality (frequency response and dynamic range) of my entire 5.1 setup.


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## sourcebound (Aug 1, 2016)

Thank you for the reply, yeah you are right its all very subjective.  My experimentation with different equipment brought me to Marantz NR 1605, its just 50W at 8ohms and it blew the RXV 677 in both music and movies. I was surprised at how a 50w amp can sound so much better. I realized that there are many things that i don't know yet about audio equipment. I came across a good pair of Definitive Pro monitor 350 and sold my Tannoy MERCURY F4, and bought a new POLK tsx 150c for the center channel
My SUB is a Yamaha SW216 and surrounds are some 10 years old Yamaha satellites with acoustic suspension design.

I recently got a chance to listen to MONITOR AUDIO BRONZE 2 and they sounded so good in the shop, can you tell me which one is good for the front speakers the Definitive or the Bronze 2 they almost have the same specs.

The marantz 1605 has pre outs for the fronts, so may be in the future i can buy a power amp too, but now its enough for my room.

The first 10 minutes of  'UNBROKEN'  really showed what the Yamaha Lacks - depth


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## AsRock (Aug 1, 2016)

Bill_Bright said:


> This is really too hard for anyone else to answer. We don't have your ears, know your sound environment or the rest of your setup (for example, sub, center, and rears). Nor do we know how you use your speakers (watching movies, background music or critical listening). And we don't know your budget. Nor your age. But even if we knew all that, we still don't have your ears.
> 
> Note in most scenarios, the rears are of much less importance than the fronts with music or movies.
> 
> ...




So true,  as i think the TANNOY M4's suck ass.  I have a pair here and not used them for over a year. The speaker are to small for the box and they don't even use the whole box as 3-5 inches of the box is blocked off. There is upgraded one of the M4's but i believe it's just the cross overs.

TANNOY used to make awesome speakers in fact some of their's from the 80's-90's were really good but when the company sold to Europe the quality dropped.

As for ONKYO though personally experience are not as lively sounding as Yamaha they are a bit more up front with the sound. The M4's defiantly sound better on the Yamaha and even better on a Marantz as it livens up the mid \ top end of the speakers.

I find NAD more of a punchy sound, and SONY more like YAMAHA with a little extra.

This is more typically as amps\ AV's do change, in sound over the years but some like the YAMAHA keep to the natural sound.

Best way is to find a Hi Fi shop and if you can one with a sound room.  If they do not have any M4's in the shop ask if they would mind you bringing your own in if you can that is as they are small floor standing speakers.

BIC all so do some nice Subs.


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 1, 2016)

Only a couple hours ago (in response to your other thread here) I watched a little review of that Marantz NR1605 "slim" receiver at C|Net. It received high praise. Back in the early 70's when I was really into audio reproduction electronics, Marantz was considered a top-tier "audiophile" quality product maker. But like many manufactures, tried to live off their name and past laurels they really got cheap (or maybe just the rest of the world caught up and zipped past). But in recent years, they've made a significant improvements are worth considering again.



> can you tell me which one is good for the front speakers the Definitive or the Bronze 2


As I answered in your other thread, you have to go by your ears! And by the way, please don't ask the same questions in multiple threads. That is not considered proper forum etiquette.



> I was surprised at how a 50w amp can sound so much better.


Today's speakers tend to be much more efficient than those made years ago. This means they can easily be pushed to reference levels with much less power.


AsRock said:


> As for ONKYO though personally experience are not as lively sounding as Yamaha


It really depends on the model - or at least series of receivers (and speakers you are driving). I compared a lot of receivers before settling down with my Onkyo, including Yamahas, Denon, Marantz and more. And in my price range, the Onkyo won out.

I really like Onkyo's auto speaker calibration system (Audyssey). It worked great. And when compared to my handy-dandy Radio Shack SPL meter, it was spot on.

My only complaint with my Onkyo is the HDMI 1.9 support. I hate it. It works great once it all finally syncs up. For example, when switching back and forth to or from Blu-ray or Roku to the cable/DVR box, it can take 10 - 15 seconds before it all syncs up properly and the right display appears on the TV and right audio source plays through the speakers. I've seen this with other brands so I know it is an HDMI thing and not a brand thing.

I almost wish my 7 year old Onkyo would die so I had an excuse to buy a new receiver with current HDMI standards.


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## AsRock (Aug 1, 2016)

Bill_Bright said:


> Only a couple hours ago (in response to your other thread here) I watched a little review of that Marantz NR1605 "slim" receiver at C|Net. It received high praise. Back in the early 70's when I was really into audio reproduction electronics, Marantz was considered a top-tier "audiophile" quality product maker. But like many manufactures, tried to live off their name and past laurels they really got cheap (or maybe just the rest of the world caught up and zipped past). But in recent years, they've made a significant improvements are worth considering again.
> 
> As I answered in your other thread, you have to go by your ears! And by the way, please don't ask the same questions in multiple threads. That is not considered proper forum etiquette.
> 
> ...




Well only had 4 of them over the last 10 years, again like you said it's a matter of preference and depends on the manufacture too as i known some like Technics to be  very varied.

My ONKYO  TX-SR608 is getting on too, it does the job but i personally i  am waiting for DP and such to pop up on AV's before jumping.  Unless i can get one cheap, i have 0 issue's with syncing with mine unless you want to complain about 1 second that is lol.

Only reason i don't use the Yamaha unit as some thing failed in it other wise i be using a $200 AV over some thing that cost me at the time $500.

I all so noticed less bass going from analog to digital too which MAY bother some.

As for buying another ONKYO i don't believe i ever will even none of the units i have had failed which is nice even if they are HOT units give good features for price.

How ever i like the Yamaha sound much more even there low end ones sound better to me with much more life in the sound.

This is why i say he needs to get to a Hi Fi shop.


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## cdawall (Aug 1, 2016)

I still prefer my H/K units, but those seem to be a bit of a dead breed now. I would agree with him needing to go sit down with an actual hifi shop as well.


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## WhiteNoise (Aug 1, 2016)

If in need of a great sub then have a look at Hsu Research. Dr. Hsu does amazing things with subs. I've been to their shop twice now and I always walk away impressed and with less money.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/


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