# new methods ! :)



## xyz123 (Mar 8, 2012)

new methods !


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## hat (Mar 8, 2012)

What exactly did you do here?


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 8, 2012)

awesome thermal pics!   how did adding that fan ontop of the GPU workout?


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## OneMoar (Mar 8, 2012)

Moar pix moar


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## zargana (Mar 8, 2012)

Actually this pictures claims, the graphic card building style is not correct. All the components are on the wrong side of the pcb (looking down). Those should be up on the pcb, because only with this type of config u get better cooling. 

Otherwise u trying to break the "natural rule." That rule is heated air always go up and high. That why case makers changed the psu position from up to bottom in the first place. 

Today cooling solution looks like this





Future cooling solution needs look like that: "coolers up" like "top on the shelf"


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 8, 2012)

zargana said:


> Actually this pictures claims, the graphic card building style is not correct. All the components are on the wrong side of the pcb (looking down). Those should be up on the pcb, because only with this type of config u get better cooling.
> 
> Otherwise u trying to break the "natural rule." That rule is heated air always go up and high. That why case makers changed the psu position from up to bottom in the first place.
> 
> ...



that wouldnt work... your trying to push hot air down?


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## zargana (Mar 8, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> that wouldnt work... your trying to push hot air down?



The fan blowing direction needs also changes.  Sorry forgot to mention it. The blowing direction should be up, not down (towards the components on the pcb). The hot air should be kicked out of the case immediately.


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## Aquinus (Mar 8, 2012)

zargana said:


> The fan blowing direction needs also changes.  Sorry forgot to mention it. The blowing direction should be up, not down (towards the components on the pcb). The hot air should be kicked out of the case immediately.



I have a reference 6870 which actually blows air directly out the back of the case through a vent in the rear panel for the video card. Perhaps using an extra slot and a PCI-slot cooler might help or a custom home-brew solution.

I love thermal pictures, it really does help figure out what is running hot and where. Nice find.


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## twicksisted (Mar 8, 2012)

zargana said:


> That why case makers changed the psu position from up to bottom in the first place.



Although I agree that hot air rises, power supplys were moved into this bottom position so that they dont take in warm air from the rest of the components.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 8, 2012)

also the case is not so top heavy with the PSU at the bottem...



does heat really rise that fast? i mean would it even make a difference? cards are designed atm so air flows across them and out the rear of the case... the other side of the GPU will always be hot as heat will travel thru the PCB


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## zargana (Mar 8, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> also the case is not so top heavy with the PSU at the bottem...
> 
> 
> 
> does heat really rise that fast? i mean would it even make a difference? cards are designed atm so air flows across them and out the rear of the case... the other side of the GPU will always be hot as heat will travel thru the PCB



Ok. When fans blow to gpu, the heat from the heat-sinker or from cooler goes directly on pcb, which blocks the air circulation (see picture1). And pcb goes hotter as the first pictures on the top of the thread. That's why putting a fan to the opposite helps to take away the heat. 






As you see the pcb becomes heated. Not need to mention how heat affects oc. Here is a more sample pictures of pcb heat. Check Nvidia 480 under load. Cant be more worse...

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/787-6/temperatures.html

For this reason graphic card manufacturers must change looking design of the cards. The gpu heat-sinkers or coolers should look up. I horizontally flipped the above picture to give an idea how must the new design look. 






Ps: Also this type of solution it will not work well with "blowing" type cooling system. Like 7970 reference design.


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## brandonwh64 (Mar 8, 2012)

That is a good idea! I have never though of it. The only issue is that some GPU manufactures use a different thread of X clap screw so it would not work on all GPU's I may give this a test on my 560TI


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## Aquinus (Mar 8, 2012)

zargana said:


> Ok. When fans blow to gpu, the heat from the heat-sinker or from cooler goes directly on pcb, which blocks the air circulation (see picture1). And pcb goes hotter as the first pictures on the top of the thread. That's why putting a fan to the opposite helps to take away the heat.
> 
> http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4687/originalng.jpg
> As you see the pcb becomes heated. Not need to mention how heat affects oc.
> ...



The 7970 reference design blows out of the case through the rear, it's not an intake. It's just like the 6000-series reference coolers. Also blowing hot air into the case from the GPU is a horrible idea because with good enough air flow the ambient temperature inside the case should be reasonable and shouldn't cause cooling issue. If it is, you need more airflow inside your chassis.


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## xyz123 (Mar 9, 2012)

http://forum.donanimhaber.com/m_58464655/tm.htm


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## xyz123 (Mar 9, 2012)

open Pc case !


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## Aquinus (Mar 9, 2012)

xyz123 said:


> open Pc case !
> 
> http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/acpc4_smoke.jpg​



Hello dust.  Also just because it is open doesn't mean the air around it is moving a whole lot.


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## AphexDreamer (Mar 9, 2012)

Yeah most video cards are positioned like in PIC one because the coolers on them breath in cool air from the bottom and exhaust out the back. 

In your case your card has a passive heatsink. Most high end cards don't have a passive heat sink and are fine the way they are.


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## NdMk2o1o (Mar 9, 2012)

Run your pc upside down, perform the same tests then post back your results?


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## xyz123 (Mar 9, 2012)




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## MGF Derp (Mar 9, 2012)

Look at cases like the Silverstone Raven series and some of the ones from Bitfenix and others where the graphics are moutned near the top of the case or perpendicular to the top of the case. Flipping graphic cards around is nothing new.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 9, 2012)

sucking air away from the PCB wont work.... you need to blow air onto it...44

zargana, thats 2nd pic with the air coming from outside into the GPU and then into the case will just make things worse... not only will it not cool the card very well it is also putting more heat into the case...





also if your going to have an open case you need a large fan blowing over the whole thing to move the surrounding are away and bring in new fresh cool air...


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## Aquinus (Mar 9, 2012)

Honestly, I like my Antec 1200 case. There are 3x120mm fans on the front of the case that act as intake fans, additionally there are 2x120mm on back and a 200mm on top acting as exhaust. There is also room for an optional side panel fan.

Antec Twelve Hundred V3 Black Steel ATX Full Tower...

I actually just got my replacement Zalman LGA2011 bolts and torque driver from Zalman and re-orienting the cooler to face back instead of up and using a little less thermal compound dropped temperatures by 10*C. Keep in mind that there are more factors than just airflow that determines your temperatures.


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## twicksisted (Mar 9, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> sucking air away from the pcb wont work.... You need to blow air onto it...



+1


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## Aquinus (Mar 9, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> +1



Unless you have two openings, one for intake and one of exhaust, a single fan isn't going to do you any good at all. Once you have two openings, it doesn't really matter if you're blowing cold air in or hot air out, it will still move the same amount of air in and out of your case. It's a matter of having balance and proper locations of openings and fans.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 9, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Unless you have two openings, one for intake and one of exhaust, a single fan isn't going to do you any good at all. Once you have two openings, it doesn't really matter if you're blowing cold air in or hot air out, it will still move the same amount of air in and out of your case. It's a matter of having balance and proper locations of openings and fans.



this is not correct.... you will always cool something faster with air blowing against it rather then trying to suck it away...


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## OneMoar (Mar 9, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> this is not correct.... you will always cool something faster with air blowing against it rather then trying to suck it away...



that depends on the speed of the air and the static tension of the 'air' over the heat sink
slower moving air picks up more heat then faster moving air BUT that depends on the heat-sinks thermal capacity


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## Aquinus (Mar 9, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> this is not correct.... you will always cool something faster with air blowing against it rather then trying to suck it away...



It won't do you any good if the air has nowhere to go...


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 9, 2012)

air already has somewhere to go... out the back of your case if we are talking about GPUs. faster air cools the chip down more due to the larger temp difference...


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## zargana (Mar 9, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> sucking air away from the PCB wont work.... you need to blow air onto it...44
> 
> zargana, thats 2nd pic with the air coming from outside into the GPU and then into the case will just make things worse... not only will it not cool the card very well it is also putting more heat into the case...
> 
> ...



My answer for that is, you are right. Because the common and almost 20 year old MB design doesn't help us to do this. If we change the air flow today, all the heat will be inside the case and etc. That's why we need a revolution, almost on all pc components. The old pc's didn't have cooling issues. Because they didn't need to much energy as today. A simple example, pentium 120, which was my first rig, had a 300w PSU. Today 1600w PSU are out! Today pc's sucks more energy and gives us heat. 

We dont need to do much; just need to follow the "nature order or law". We need to move the coolest piece to bottom and the hotter piece higher in the case. This will help, but only if the MB, any pci or pci-e and case design change. To give an idea here is my solution.  







Cheers.


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## twicksisted (Mar 10, 2012)

You guys really think that all of the graphics card OEM's havent experimented with different coolers, fan positioning and cooling techniques?


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 10, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> You guys really think that all of the graphics card OEM's havent experimented with different coolers, fan positioning and cooling techniques?



i know they have  hence why we have aftermarket coolers.


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## zargana (Mar 10, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> You guys really think that all of the graphics card OEM's havent experimented with different coolers, fan positioning and cooling techniques?



I just wanted to answer question with the evolution of the MB's. 






To much experiment but same result.


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## Aquinus (Mar 10, 2012)

zargana said:


> I just wanted to answer question with the evolution of the MB's.
> 
> http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8283/mbevol.jpg
> 
> To much experiment but same result.



I don't think the socket layout and location is for cooling purposes exactly, considering pin count has been going through the roof since the P2 (the slot idea was incredibly stupid imho).


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## newtekie1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Flipping the card over doesn't help. People thing the PCB gets hot because heat rises, but heat only rises in a fluid/gas, it doesn't rise through solids.  Heat conducts through solids, so the back of the PCB is hot because the it is touching the GPU and the heat is conducted away from the GPU into the PCB.

Changing the orientation of the motherboard actually makes GPU temperatures worse, that is why no one does it(except dell tried it and switch back after a while).  When you change the orientation of the motherboard by flipping it upside down, you are taking the GPU from an area with relatively cool air, the bottom of the case, and putting it into an area with relatively hot air, the top of the case.  The heat from the CPU is rising, the heat from the PSU is rising, and it is all going to the top of the case, so the GPU is being cooled by already hot air.


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## zargana (Mar 10, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> Flipping the card over doesn't help. People thing the PCB gets hot because heat rises, but heat only rises in a fluid/gas, it doesn't rise through solids.  Heat conducts through solids, so the back of the PCB is hot because the it is touching the GPU and the heat is conducted away from the GPU into the PCB.
> 
> Changing the orientation of the motherboard actually makes GPU temperatures worse, that is why no one does it(except dell tried it and switch back after a while).  When you change the orientation of the motherboard by flipping it upside down, you are taking the GPU from an area with relatively cool air, the bottom of the case, and putting it into an area with relatively hot air, the top of the case.  The heat from the CPU is rising, the heat from the PSU is rising, and it is all going to the top of the case, so the GPU is being cooled by already hot air.



I looked to your system and you have an i7 cpu, 2xsli reactors. Your cpu and MB, in normal room temperatures runs around (without OC) 30-35 and at load 50-55 Celsius. But your gpus can go up to 80 Celsius and more, that heat impacts direct on your cpu, cpu-cooler, rams and your MB chokes and you still say flip cant do the work?

I am not so sure...


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## xyz123 (Mar 11, 2012)




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## slyfox2151 (Mar 11, 2012)

most of the heat is being blow out the back of the case....  especially if he has another fan on the top Rear of his case.. the air for the CPU should be coming from the front... not from below.

any decent case these days has fairly high air-flow speeds through the case... "Rising heat" doesn't have a chance as its blown with the air out of the case.



xyz123 said:


> http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5608/idealmb.jpg





why do you keep posting pics with no information?


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## Deleted member 3 (Mar 11, 2012)

zargana said:


> Future cooling solution needs look like that: "coolers up" like "top on the shelf"
> http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6845/reversed.jpg



That's a refreshing idea. Perhaps they should call it something like BTX. Because after A comes B.


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> That's a refreshing idea. Perhaps they should call it something like BTX. Because after A comes B.



BTX already exists. Might want to check these things first. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTX_(form_factor)

IIRC, it's a Dell thing from many years ago.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 11, 2012)

xyz123 said:


> http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5608/idealmb.jpg





Aquinus said:


> BTX already exists. Might want to check these things first.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTX_(form_factor)
> 
> IIRC, it's a Dell thing from many years ago.



i think you missed the sarcasm lol..


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> i think you missed the sarcasm lol..



I think I did. 

I honestly like my setup, 3 intake 120mm in front, 2x120mm exhaust in back and 1x200mm exhaust on top, and exhaust on the PSU on the bottom. Including the exhaust on both 6870s.





Pardon the grainy picture, the sun was coming in the room when I took the picture.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 11, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> I think I did.
> 
> I honestly like my setup, 3 intake 120mm in front, 2x120mm exhaust in back and 1x200mm exhaust on top, and exhaust on the PSU on the bottom. Including the exhaust on both 6870s.
> 
> ...



i wish i still had my antec 1200


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> i wish i still had my antec 1200



I love it, it's the most solid case I've ever owned. I just hate how much the case weighs. I feel like I'm lifting weights every time I've had to move it. It's so worth it, though. I just wish it supported EATX boards, considering it is a full tower chassis.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 11, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> I love it, it's the most solid case I've ever owned. I just hate how much the case weighs. I feel like I'm lifting weights every time I've had to move it. It's so worth it, though. I just wish it supported EATX boards, considering it is a full tower chassis.



man... its not as heavy as the case POS case i went to lol...xaser 6..... wishing i never swapped.


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> man... its not as heavy as the case POS case i went to lol...xaser 6..... wishing i never swapped.



Before my Antec 1200, I had a ThermalTake TsunamiDream and it was a nice case to start but the Aluminum made it feel flimsy and over time it just deteriorated and started to look worse and worse. The build quality of the Antec case is nice and it doesn't have a shred of aluminum on it. Also the Lazer6 weighs 10 lbs (~4.5kg) less than the 1200.

Ever since I've used Antec chassis for all computers I've built. For others and myself, and honestly I've been happy with the 300, 900, and 1200. I don't think I'll ever by a ThermalTake chassis ever again after using Antec. However I do have a 120mm push-pull cpu cooler on my old Phenom II 940 and I'm perfectly happy with that, even if it is mostly aluminum.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 11, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Before my Antec 1200, I had a ThermalTake TsunamiDream and it was a nice case to start but the Aluminum made it feel flimsy and over time it just deteriorated and started to look worse and worse. The build quality of the Antec case is nice and it doesn't have a shred of aluminum on it. Also the Lazer6 weighs 10 lbs (~4.5kg) less than the 1200.
> 
> Ever since I've used Antec chassis for all computers I've built. For others and myself, and honestly I've been happy with the 300, 900, and 1200. I don't think I'll ever by a ThermalTake chassis ever again after using Antec. However I do have a 120mm push-pull cpu cooler on my old Phenom II 940 and I'm perfectly happy with that, even if it is mostly aluminum.



yeah... till you put water in it


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

slyfox2151 said:


> yeah... till you put water in it



By the time I choose to use water cooling, I will own a house and in that case I won't be mounting the radiator inside the chassis, it will be external. Until then, I am perfectly happy with the Zalman CPNS9900MAX, even more so since it doesn't even cover any of the DIMM slots and cools my 3820 @ 4.75ghz without a problem. I have no reason to get water at the moment.


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## claylomax (Mar 11, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Unless you have two openings, one for intake and one of exhaust, a single fan isn't going to do you any good at all. Once you have two openings, it doesn't really matter if you're blowing cold air in or hot air out, it will still move the same amount of air in and out of your case. It's a matter of having balance and proper locations of openings and fans.





slyfox2151 said:


> this is not correct.... you will always cool something faster with air blowing against it rather then trying to suck it away...



This. How do you use a fan in the summer when it's hot? Extracting air from you? or Blowing air towards you?


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

claylomax said:


> This. How do you use a fan in the summer when it's hot? Extracting air from you? or Blowing air towards you?



Computers don't sweat so there is no phase change occurring on a computer unlike the human body. It depends on the external temperature and the ambient internal temperature. Don't go comparing a computer cooling system to a "human cooling system." It's largely inaccurate.

Edit: The human body also isn't in a room that is completely sealed except for a single opening with a fan blowing air in from the outside. The air needs somewhere to go or it will do you no good. Hence air *flow*. This only works if your computer isn't in an enclosed case, and most of the time, people don't like running hardware on their desk without a chassis.


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## claylomax (Mar 11, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> Computers don't sweat so there is no phase change occurring on a computer unlike the human body. It depends on the external temperature and the ambient internal temperature. Don't compare comparing a computer cooling system to a "human cooling system." It's largely inaccurate.
> 
> Edit: The human body also isn't in a room that is completely sealed except for a single opening with a fan blowing air in from the outside. The air needs somewhere to go or it will do you no good. Hence air *flow*. This only works if your computer isn't in an enclosed case, and most of the time, people don't like running hardware on their desk without a chassis.



You remind me of those guys from "The Big Bang Theory".


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## Aquinus (Mar 11, 2012)

claylomax said:


> You remind me of those guys from "The Big Bang Theory".



I'm not sure if I should take that as insult or a compliment. 
I do try to keep myself well informed and well rounded and when you get a degree in Computer Science, you do have to take a lot of science courses which includes physics which covers thermodynamics.


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 11, 2012)

Aquinus said:


> I'm not sure if I should take that as insult or a compliment.
> I do try to keep myself well informed and well rounded and when you get a degree in Computer Science, you do have to take a lot of science courses which includes physics which covers thermodynamics.



Defiantly compliment


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## newtekie1 (Mar 11, 2012)

zargana said:


> I looked to your system and you have an i7 cpu, 2xsli reactors. Your cpu and MB, in normal room temperatures runs around (without OC) 30-35 and at load 50-55 Celsius. But your gpus can go up to 80 Celsius and more, that heat impacts direct on your cpu, cpu-cooler, rams and your MB chokes and you still say flip cant do the work?
> 
> I am not so sure...



Actually they hit 90°C in SLI.  But the heat is exhausted out the back of the case.  And if it didn't it would rise in the case to the CPU, yes.  However the CPU doesn't need the extra cooling power of cool intake are, the GPUs do.  If the air going into the GPUs was 10°C hotter, then the cards would run about that much hotter.


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## xyz123 (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC-ky8p_xdo


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## Aquinus (Mar 13, 2012)

xyz123 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC-ky8p_xdo



Obviously they would breakdown, you're putting >30 volts on 6.3v capacitors.


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## baris (Mar 13, 2012)

im buying Zalman Z11 Plus Case in two weeks and i think you should really check it out:
http://www.zalman.com/eng/product/Product_Read.asp?Idx=476


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## Solaris17 (Mar 13, 2012)

OneMoar said:


> that depends on the speed of the air and the static tension of the 'air' over the heat sink
> slower moving air picks up more heat then faster moving air BUT that depends on the heat-sinks thermal capacity



this.

i actually think this is a good idea. if you made some sort of shroud lifted off the pcb and a fan you could probably cool it alot better than using an open fan style. this would make it more effective than dragging air across the top of an open pcb.


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## xyz123 (Mar 17, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83tQuX7x5Zw

http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/search.php?page=1&BusInterface=Fusion&ClockGPU=900+-+1000+MHz

http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/search.php?page=1&BusInterface=Fusion&ClockGPU=1000+-+1100+MHz


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## xyz123 (Mar 24, 2012)

http://img.donanimhaber.com/upfiles/194281/FF408FB8B20F49149CAAF2F213C1318A.jpg​


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## slyfox2151 (Mar 24, 2012)

What?


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## Aquinus (Mar 24, 2012)

xyz123: Please don't double post, if you have something to add before someone replies, just edit your last post.




xyz123 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83tQuX7x5Zw
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/search.php?page=1&BusInterface=Fusion&ClockGPU=900+-+1000+MHz
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/search.php?page=1&BusInterface=Fusion&ClockGPU=1000+-+1100+MHz



Also would you stop posting links without saying anything? You do it a lot and no one seems to understand what you're trying to say.


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## xyz123 (Mar 30, 2012)




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## slyfox2151 (Mar 30, 2012)

xyz123 said:


> http://assets.overclock.net.s3.amazonaws.com/a/a9/a9f84e16_vbattach206371.jpeg



and did this actually help with temps???..... or as i bet if you rotate the case 90 degrees nothing changes.


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## xyz123 (Apr 4, 2012)

1. model ! for GPU ( bad 








2. model ! for GPU + PCB ( best


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## slyfox2151 (Apr 4, 2012)

xyz123 said:


> 1. model ! ( bad
> http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/510/thermaltake_tmg_nd1_box.jpghttp://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/510/thermaltake_tmg_nd1_back.jpg
> 
> 2. model ! ( best
> http://mediafiles.xfxforce.com/MMD_Tech_Images/dd_ghost_diagram.jpg



awesome.. now all the heat gets blown around back inside the case....

this thread should be closed =.=


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