# Mac Pro Gets Updated This Spring, Powered by Ivy Bridge-EP Xeon



## btarunr (Feb 7, 2013)

Apple's high-performance desktop Mac Pro will get its long overdue specifications overhaul this spring. The Mac Pro is being pulled off shelves in Europe due to lack of compliance with local regulations; but a French retailer believes the pull out is temporary, and that a new, rehashed Mac Pro will be reintroduced in Spring (March-April). The new Mac Pro pole-vaults Sandy Bridge-EP Xeon processor line to Intel's next-generation Xeon "Ivy Bridge-EP" dual-socket processors, SSDs being standard equipment, and the latest generation NVIDIA GeForce or AMD Radeon graphics cards. It's also quite likely that Apple to refresh its display lineup to support higher resolutions.





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Frick (Feb 7, 2013)

Is that what the retailer thinks or is this the actual thing?


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## Aquinus (Feb 7, 2013)

Warning: Be prepared to sell a kidney to afford one.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Aquinus said:


> Warning: Be prepared to sell a kidney to afford one.



Premium is not that much over comparable Dell/HP.


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## Aquinus (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Premium is not that much over comparable Dell/HP.



Yes, but you don't need to go with a vendor to legally obtain a tower if you go with a PC with Windows. In that case you can build it and not give HP or Dell (who has just been bought by Microsoft,) where you do with Apple. Granted skt2011 Xeons aren't cheap either.

Unless you get the Xeon E5-2620 though. Might only be 2Ghz (2.5Ghz turbo), but it's 6-core with hyper-threading with a 95-watt TDP for ~400 USD.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Aquinus said:


> Yes, but you don't need to go with a vendor to legally obtain a tower if you go with a PC with Windows. In that case you can build it and not give HP or Dell (who has just been bought by Microsoft,) where you do with Apple. Granted skt2011 Xeons aren't cheap either.
> 
> Unless you get the Xeon E5-2620 though. Might only be 2Ghz (2.5Ghz turbo), but it's 6-core with hyper-threading with a 95-watt TDP for ~400 USD.



Always cheaper when you can build it yourself, providing for 200 is a bit harder.


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## Aquinus (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> providing for 200 is a bit harder.



I don't think there are that many companies that would be considering buying 200 Mac Pros. Maybe laptops and Mac Minis, but the price tag on the Pro is simply way too high to buy in that kind of volume if your watching your budget. Doesn't sound like a wise business purchase. I doubt every employee needs that kind of power either.


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## BarbaricSoul (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Premium is not that much over comparable Dell/HP.



Huh? I'm looking at prices now. I can either get a MacPro with a 3.2ghz, 8 mb cache, 1st gen i7, 6 gig RAM, and a HD5770 for $2500 or a Dell Alienware X51 with a 3770, 8gigs of RAM, and a GTX 660 for $1150. The premium is rediculous.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Aquinus said:


> I don't think there are that many companies that would be considering buying 200 Mac Pros. Maybe laptops and Mac Minis, but the price tag on the Pro is simply way too high to buy in that kind of volume if your watching your budget. Doesn't sound like a wise business purchase. I doubt every employee needs that kind of power either.



Even if its 30 you will be dedicating quite a lot of space, time and effort which can probably be better spent elsewhere.


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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

Barbaricsoul,

you are comparing a Mac with xeon processor and ECC memory to a regular 3770 without ECC.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Also, due for updates which might change things a bit. Always better to buy cheaper stuff, but for those who cares about looks or image there is always Mac.


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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Even if its 30 you will be dedicating quite a lot of space, time and effort which can probably be better spent elsewhere.



You gotta look from a corporation's perspective. Hardware is cheaper than salary. Apple's propriety standards are closed and therefore less problems with compatibility. Where I work, you can choose to have apple or pc from any major manufacturer. IT support is rarely called for apple mac pros while there's constant problems with PCs equivalent. Yes! PC equivalent probably cost 40% less but an average IT support tech around here is over $80k/year.

In the end, mac pros are limited to what they can do but PCs are not. So if they have everything they need with the mac, the overall cost is actually much less.


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## BarbaricSoul (Feb 7, 2013)

No, I'm comparing what is available from Apple and what is available from Dell.


BTW, that 3770 outperforms that Xeon, ECC memory or not.


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## Kaynar (Feb 7, 2013)

Apart from the fact that this will be priced for 3-5x the price for an equivalent non-Apple product, who actually wants to buy Mac OS for high-end equipment? I mean... from my personal experience I've seen Autodesk products becoming slowly compatible with macs but half the options are missing due to poor software support from apple. Does photo-editing (or other) programs fully work and perform at least as fast on a Mac as on a Windows PC with equivalent specs (taking out the price factor).


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## remixedcat (Feb 7, 2013)

Ummm... you don't have to have a mac to be a media pro...

Tons of Trance Djs use windows PCs... Xtigma, Bass-t (and also his label Planet-Punk), Pulsedriver, Accuface, Thomas Petersen, and a few others... Universal studios uses Linux and Windows PCs. Pixar used SGI IRIX (Now they use Linux)


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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

BarbaricSoul said:


> No, I'm comparing what is available from Apple and what is available from Dell.
> 
> 
> BTW, that 3770 outperforms that Xeon, ECC memory or not.



In what? typical desktop environment yes. Do you not understand the difference between server grade parts and consumer parts?

I'm not defending apple here but you're comparing apples to oranges lol(unintentional pun)

I guess there's no convincing you here. Maybe workstations should arm themselves with GTX series instead of Quadro.


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## remixedcat (Feb 7, 2013)

My system would be 4000 if it were a mac... I paid 800 even.


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## Frick (Feb 7, 2013)

BarbaricSoul said:


> No, I'm comparing what is available from Apple and what is available from Dell.
> 
> 
> BTW, that 3770 outperforms that Xeon, ECC memory or not.



You are comparing a gaming platform to a workstation. If you want to compare realistically, add premium support (on site), two high end CPU's, at least 32GB RAM, some high end GPU's (Quadro/Firepro) and start look at general build quality and watch the premium shrink.


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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

Kaynar said:


> Apart from the fact that this will be priced for 3-5x the price for an equivalent non-Apple product, who actually wants to buy Mac OS for high-end equipment? I mean... from my personal experience I've seen Autodesk products becoming slowly compatible with macs but half the options are missing due to poor software support from apple. Does photo-editing (or other) programs fully work and perform at least as fast on a Mac as on a Windows PC with equivalent specs (taking out the price factor).



Overexaggeration! I fully agree Macs are overpriced but it is not 3-5x overpriced!!!!!!

too much fanboyism and ignorance. Macs are not good at everything but they do have decent software for media work like Final Cut Pro. It's actually widely used by professionals in the industry.

Come on guys, let's be subjective here.

Macs are 30-50% overpriced for the same spec. The thing saving them is their simplicity, aesthetic design, build quality and marketing. 

For an enthusiast and someone who knows their ways around a computer, you can save massive $$$ by building your own pc and troubleshoot problems yourself. What you think is just minor problems(eg. hardware compatibility, software updates, etc...) are major problems to most people who don't care/know much about those things. They just want their computer to work so they can use it without headaches. 
The existence of geeksquad and similar services should tell you that.


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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

remixedcat said:


> My system would be 4000 if it were a mac... I paid 800 even.



looking through your system....no it wouldn't even be close to 4k if it was a mac.


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## Patriot (Feb 7, 2013)

Frick said:


> You are comparing a gaming platform to a workstation. If you want to compare realistically, add premium support (on site), two high end CPU's, at least 32GB RAM, some high end GPU's (Quadro/Firepro) and start look at general build quality and watch the premium shrink.



I will do that later for you.... but ecc ram is dirt cheap.
The base is overpriced...  the margins do get slightly more narrow in comparison with the other vendors...  but the gap between what you can build vs them... does not.

Right now its cheaper to get a dual cpu SB-E HP red workstation over a decked out Mac Pro... and the HP would run circles around it in every aspect.

As for building stuff yourself.... I have built a 4p g34 rig for < 2k ...


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## Frick (Feb 7, 2013)

Patriot said:


> I will do that later for you.... but ecc ram is dirt cheap.
> The base is overpriced...  the margins do get slightly more narrow in comparison with the other vendors...  but the gap between what you can build vs them... does not.
> 
> Right now its cheaper to get a dual cpu SB-E HP red workstation over a decked out Mac Pro... and the HP would run circles around it in every aspect.
> ...



Of course it'll be cheaper to build yourself, but it's not always people have the time for it. And workstations often *have *to work, so you should also take a close look at how breakdown would be handled where you live, hence the premium support. Sometimes Apple Care might be a better option than HP or Dell. And if you build it yourself with parts from Newegg, can you afford to loose the time it would take to RMA the motherboard, or any other critical component?

But all is moot anyway if they don't update the Mac Pro soon. It really is pretty outdated, so now it's the worse option no matter how you look at it. IMO.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Patriot said:


> Right now its cheaper to get a dual cpu SB-E HP red workstation over a decked out Mac Pro... and the HP would run circles around it in every aspect.



I can't believe you manage to ignore the fact that Mac Pro severely needs an update right now


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## Beertintedgoggles (Feb 7, 2013)

Maybe I'm behind on the news but what local regulations (doesn't seem very local if it's all of Europe) caused the Mac Pros to be pulled off store shelves?


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## Galas (Feb 7, 2013)

ITT:
Apple haters trying to evangelize custom building.


The #1 reason for a company paying premium for a Mac Pro, is SOFTWARE, not hardware.
Anyway, most companies are buying minis instead. Much better performance/price ratio.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Beertintedgoggles said:


> Maybe I'm behind on the news but what local regulations (doesn't seem very local if it's all of Europe) caused the Mac Pros to be pulled off store shelves?



Its Europe, if cat hair was found in your office toilet the entire block will be sealed and marked for Hazmat squad.


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## remixedcat (Feb 7, 2013)

Ummm apple software isn't perfect... it crashes and burns just like windows and also the UI is very dated looking now and hasn't changed and not many new features have been added to the OS for years.... From Vista era tons of new features have been added to windows... but just a handful have been added to OSX. Apple is a stagnant company.


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## RCoon (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Its Europe, if cat hair was found in your office toilet the entire block will be sealed and marked for Hazmat squad.



This is humorous but true.
Should have seen the panic when they saw blood on one of the fire door windows


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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

*Economics*

I don't think anyone is trying to evangelize anything. It's a matter of economics. Any contract to do anything IT related is at least $300 per hour(normally ~$500/hr) on what amount of estimated work. Do these people care about saving a few thousand dollars on hardware? absolutely not! Considering projects are often well above the $1million mark and often tens of millions. They just want the hardware immediately in a whole package and it has to work or they lose time. Their earnings per hour is greater than time spent on saving money. 

A regular pc enthusiasts wants the best bang for buck. His opinion is different. His view of $300 3770k = great value and faster than $800 xeon whatever. However he is not getting $300-1000 per hour on a contract. and does not need his hardware to work perfectly if it saves him 50% to build/fix everything himself.

This is a matter of efficiency. One person is better at making more money while another does so by saving. There's very few people/businesses that can do both because they will have statisticians that will draw them a chart showing them their production possibility curves, maximum profit/revenue/net income. Saving money cost money since you have to hire someone to do that. For businesses, normally reaching maximum revenue first is more important than reducing expense. Therefore, maximizing production(eg. reducing downtime) is usually more important than cost savings.


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## ensabrenoir (Feb 7, 2013)

.......first Apple i'd ever consider


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## xenocide (Feb 7, 2013)

remixedcat said:


> Ummm apple software isn't perfect... it crashes and burns just like windows and also the UI is very dated looking now and hasn't changed and not many new features have been added to the OS for years.... From Vista era tons of new features have been added to windows... but just a handful have been added to OSX. Apple is a stagnant company.



A lot of people overlook this.  OSX is getting pretty old, Apple has basically ignored their PC lines since they make so much god damn money off iPhones and iPads these days.  OSX has gotten almost no new functionality in the past 2-3 years.


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## Disparia (Feb 7, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> This is a matter of efficiency. One person is better at making more money while another does so by saving. There's very few people/businesses that can do both because they will have statisticians that will draw them a chart showing them their production possibility curves, maximum profit/revenue/net income. Saving money cost money since you have to hire someone to do that. For businesses, normally reaching maximum revenue first is more important than reducing expense. Therefore, maximizing production(eg. reducing downtime) is usually more important than cost savings.



That's why I loved being an admin at a couple small businesses (25 - 80 employees) - was able to have my cake and eat it too. Workstations and servers much nicer than we needed because we built them in-house. No analyst naysayer because you don't argue with the department that brings in 1/3rd of the company's revenue


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## Patriot (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> I can't believe you manage to ignore the fact that Mac Pro severely needs an update right now



I can't believe you managed to ignore it cost more while needing an update...
hence the premium is extraordinarily high.

I really don't see a price decrease with the advent of IB-E, I only see an increase.
So the competitiveness will not necessarily increase with the performance.
That said... IB-E is going to be fun... 

I also don't run a 1155 as a daily driver... its a cute platform and great for gamers... but I prefer the server workstation class.
I run an E5-2680,  So I am going to enjoy when those chips come out... going from 8 to 12 cores in the same tdp... mmmm.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 7, 2013)

Patriot said:


> I can't believe you managed to ignore it cost more while needing an update...
> hence the premium is extraordinarily high.



No one in their right mind will buy Mac Pro without waiting for an upgrade: there is no saving grace at its current state. We don't know anything about the upgrade yet, I will refrain from recommending it until I see how the pricing goes.


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## Depth (Feb 7, 2013)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Huh? I'm looking at prices now. I can either get a MacPro with a 3.2ghz, 8 mb cache, 1st gen i7, 6 gig RAM, and a HD5770 for $2500 or a Dell Alienware X51 with a 3770, 8gigs of RAM, and a GTX 660 for $1150. The premium is rediculous.
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/130207/apple.jpg
> 
> ...



$250 for a 2TB HDD
$500 to upgrade from 3.2GHz to 3.33GHz
$975 for 32GB RAM

Holy shit.

Edit: Disregard the $500, just noticed it also upgrades from 4 to 6 cores


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## Patriot (Feb 7, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> No one in their right mind will buy Mac Pro without waiting for an upgrade: there is no saving grace at its current state. We don't know anything about the upgrade yet, I will refrain from recommending it until I see how the pricing goes.



Fair enough.


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 7, 2013)




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## tokyoduong (Feb 7, 2013)

Depth said:


> $250 for a 2TB HDD
> $500 to upgrade from 3.2GHz to 3.33GHz
> $975 for 32GB RAM
> 
> ...



That is ridiculous yes, that is something I would have my IT staff do. this is where cost savings > lost productivity. If I was in a higher executive position, a few thousands in IT expense is still much less than my 1-2 hr of down time.


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## Octavean (Feb 7, 2013)

Its been speculated for a while now that Apple would update the Mac Pro using Ivy Bridge-EP Xeons.  

The Mac Pro has been neglected but you'll also notice that the update cycle for the iMac, while not as bad, was poor too.  All while the iPad has had its last update within about ~6 month (not including the inclusion of the 128GB iPad) so it would seem the larger computer hardware is simply falling out of favor with Apple. 

Still, my question is a simple one of continuity. The reason that Sandy Bridge-E / EP doesn't have Intel Thunderbolt support is because an integrated Intel video subsystem (iGPU) is a requirement of the spec.  This is why the lower-end Z77 / LGA1155 platform has Thunderbolt support and the higher-end professional / Pro-consumer X79 / C606 LGA2011 platform does not. 

It was my understanding that there would be no new chipset for Ivy Bridge-E / EP so I don't see how Apple could add Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 on a Mac Pro unless some odd things happened.  Such as Apple supporting third party USB 3.0 chipsets and or Intel dropping the Intel iGPU requirement for Thunderbolt.  Either that or there will be a new chipset for Ivy Bridge-E / EP.  There is also the possibility that there simply wont be USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt support on new Mac Pro models.

There are other possibilities too I guess.


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## sand0oski (Feb 7, 2013)

Everybody knows that Apple computers are overpriced for the components you get, can we just move on from the subject already?  You have to think of apple computers as more pieces of industrial design that happen to also be computers.  Sure a Mac Pro is going to cost more than a comparable Dell desktop.  That's like saying a diet of Chicken and broccoli is better for you then Twinkies and Cheetos.  Everybody knows it.  Sure you could get a more powerful Dell for cheaper...but then you'd have a dell.  You have to think of things from a design stand-point, some people happen to like good clean minimalist design, some people believe form before function, and some people have the extra cash to afford it.  When you walk in to an art gallery or some place that's obviously been done by an interior designer, the furniture looks uncomfortable as hell but it looks nice.  A Lexus doesn't have a magical engine that poops rainbows and sunshine any more then a toyota.  If anything you know that when you buy a macbook or imac, they retain there resell value.


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## Frick (Feb 7, 2013)

sand0oski said:


> Everybody knows that Apple computers are overpriced for the components you get, can we just move on from the subject already?  You have to think of apple computers as more pieces of industrial design that happen to also be computers.  Sure a Mac Pro is going to cost more than a comparable Dell desktop.  That's like saying a diet of Chicken and broccoli is better for you then Twinkies and Cheetos.  Everybody knows it.  Sure you could get a more powerful Dell for cheaper...but then you'd have a dell.  You have to think of things from a design stand-point, some people happen to like good clean minimalist design, some people believe form before function, and some people have the extra cash to afford it.  When you walk in to an art gallery or some place that's obviously been done by an interior designer, the furniture looks uncomfortable as hell but it looks nice.  A Lexus doesn't have a magical engine that poops rainbows and sunshine any more then a toyota.  If anything you know that when you buy a macbook or imac, they retain there resell value.



but they are generally not when compared to actual counterparts. A bit more expensive, but its not outrageous (maybe apart from the upgrades). This goes for pretty much everything they do with the possible exception of the Mac Mini.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 7, 2013)

Galas said:


> ITT:
> Apple haters trying to evangelize custom building.
> 
> 
> ...



Software? Maybe some Audio stuff but that's about it. Everything else runs just fine on a Windows platform. As a matter of fact Apple just got Photoshop 64-bit after the PC has been enjoying it for years.


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## NC37 (Feb 7, 2013)

Galas said:


> ITT:
> Apple haters trying to evangelize custom building.
> 
> 
> ...



That and the Minis would be cheaper to replace. My bro in law has just about had it with Apple. He's had to replace his Pro every couple years now. The things keep breaking down. Which I've been speculating for years now that Apple has lost a lot of quality, at least in the Mac area. They've been cutting corners and getting by with it by keeping looks fashionable. Using their past reputation of longevity to keep things going. Just don't think they care about Macs anymore.

So in the end...really gotta ask if that massive premium is worth it for OSX. All your getting is a cheaply built PC with server processors.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 7, 2013)

NC37 said:


> That and the Minis would be cheaper to replace. My bro in law has just about had it with Apple. He's had to replace his Pro every couple years now. The things keep breaking down. Which I've been speculating for years now that Apple has lost a lot of quality, at least in the Mac area. They've been cutting corners and getting by with it by keeping looks fashionable. Using their past reputation of longevity to keep things going. Just don't think they care about Macs anymore.
> 
> So in the end...really gotta ask if that massive premium is worth it for OSX. All your getting is a cheaply built PC with server processors.



Ive been saying that for a while now. The quality of the build just isn't what it used to be in the Quicksilver/Mirror door days. I STILL HAVE a working Quicksilver. I have gone through 3 Intel iMacs.


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## timta2 (Feb 8, 2013)

xenocide said:


> A lot of people overlook this.  OSX is getting pretty old, Apple has basically ignored their PC lines since they make so much god damn money off iPhones and iPads these days.  OSX has gotten almost no new functionality in the past 2-3 years.



What new functionality does OS X need? A metro interface? 

Both Mac OS X and Windows are both so good these days, that it's really become hard for Apple and Microsoft to improve them. That's rather obvious to lot of us.


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## tokyoduong (Feb 8, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive been saying that for a while now. The quality of the build just isn't what it used to be in the Quicksilver/Mirror door days. I STILL HAVE a working Quicksilver. I have gone through 3 Intel iMacs.



I can't say much about Mac desktops. I can only attest to the Macbook pros solid chassis. I don't think I've found a better built laptop in those form factor. The premium is a bit too high though. For 2k+, I think I would just buy an ugly Sager super laptop that can do everything + replace my desktop.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 8, 2013)

tokyoduong said:


> I can't say much about Mac desktops. I can only attest to the Macbook pros solid chassis. I don't think I've found a better built laptop in those form factor. The premium is a bit too high though. For 2k+, I think I would just buy an ugly Sager super laptop that can do everything + replace my desktop.



Then you have never used a high end Levono.


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## 3870x2 (Feb 8, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then you have never used a high end *Lenovo*.



IBM had a really good thing going on with the thinkpads back in the day, but I haven't seen one in quite a while so I can't comment on them now.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 8, 2013)

3870x2 said:


> IBM had a really good thing going on with the thinkpads back in the day, but I haven't seen one in quite a while so I can't comment on them now.



Yeah those old IBM's were tanks.


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## Octavean (Feb 8, 2013)

Meh,....

I don't really need a system that's built like a tank.  I'm not driving it into battle,....

And for the record I have seen some fairly beaten-up Macs.  I don't know what some people are using these things for but I think they are using them "wrong" if build quality is that kind of issue.   They need to stop hammering out a new front deck and back porch with their laptops / desktops as a blunt instrument,....

Or something,....


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 8, 2013)

lol at all of the tpuers talking about "wasting" money. please, most of you spend WAY too much money on your rigs just so you can play video games. give me a break.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 8, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> lol at all of the tpuers talking about "wasting" money. please, most of you spend WAY too much money on your rigs just so you can play video games. give me a break.



Yeah to play games.....games you CAN'T PLAY on a Mac. Most buy a Mac to post on facebook.


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## Depth (Feb 8, 2013)

Options are:

1) Spend a shitload of money to play games on max settings, browse youtube/facebook, twitter etc. Buy components as they release to improve computer or replace faulty components

2) Spend a shitload of money to browse youtube/facebook, twitter etc. Spend another shitload of money for a component upgrade or mail it somewhere for 1 month if anything fails

3) Embrace a religion and go on TPU telling everyone how great option 2 is, while following option 2


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## Fourstaff (Feb 8, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah to play games.....games you CAN'T PLAY on a Mac. Most buy a Mac to post on facebook.



Humbly disagree, there are quite alot of Mac gamers I know. No they don't play all games out there, they know what games they will be playing before settling for Mac. Or Bootcamp.


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## Depth (Feb 9, 2013)

I'd like to see this.

Name a AAA game that runs on Mac.

Or are you saying that because I want to casually play Bejeweled, I should opt for a Mac?


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Humbly disagree, there are quite alot of Mac gamers I know. No they don't play all games out there, they know what games they will be playing before settling for Mac. Or Bootcamp.



Why run bootcamp when you can just buy a PC?


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 9, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah to play games.....games you CAN'T PLAY on a Mac. Most buy a Mac to post on facebook.



why is spending $2000 to play console ports at 200 FPS of higher dollar value than spending $2000 to browse the web ? at some point people need to grow up and realize every individual has their own reason for choosing the computer that they buy and they aren't fanbois for doing it.


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## Kantastic (Feb 9, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Then you have never used a high end Levono.



Funny you mention, my cousin's boyfriend ordered a ThinkPad X1 Carbon with all the bells and whistles over a month ago. It arrived last Monday and half the keyboard wasn't registering. The trackpad was also "glitchy" as well, but from someone who came from a Macbook Pro, I'm willing to bet it was working just fine and that the glitches he mentioned were just inferior drivers. Solution? Ship it back and wait another few weeks for a replacement. 

Edit:



TheMailMan78 said:


> Why run bootcamp when you can just buy a PC?



Because one would still benefit from both the unrivaled Apple customer support and product build quality.


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## jihadjoe (Feb 9, 2013)

I'm guessing it will come with dual 8-core IVB-EPs and a GK110 based Quadro.
Should be interesting!


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 9, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> why is spending $2000 to play console ports at 200 FPS of higher dollar value than spending $2000 to browse the web ? at some point people need to grow up and realize every individual has their own reason for choosing the computer that they buy and they aren't fanbois for doing it.



If you spend $2000 dollars for 200FPS in games you don't know what you are doing. Apple offers ZERO value for average user and ZERO value for a gamer. They have become all status. The days of the PowerPC are over sir. They day they went Intel they become irrelevant.



Kantastic said:


> Funny you mention, my cousin's boyfriend ordered a ThinkPad X1 Carbon with all the bells and whistles over a month ago. It arrived last Monday and half the keyboard wasn't registering. The trackpad was also "glitchy" as well, but from someone who came from a Macbook Pro, I'm willing to bet it was working just fine and that the glitches he mentioned were just inferior drivers. Solution? Ship it back and wait another few weeks for a replacement.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...



Ive had THREE iMacs die on me in three years? Your point?


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 9, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> They day they went Intel they become irrelevant.



the day they went intel is the day they started to become the richest corporation in the world. remind me to never go into business with you


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## Depth (Feb 9, 2013)

Kantastic said:


> Because one would still benefit from both the unrivaled Apple customer support and product build quality.



Doesn't third party software violate the EULA?


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## xenocide (Feb 10, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> the day they went intel is the day they started to become the richest corporation in the world. remind me to never go into business with you



They have only become the richest because of devices such as the iPod and iPhone.  If you look at their computer revenue it is still incredibly low.


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## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2013)

xenocide said:


> They have only become the richest because of devices such as the iPod and iPhone.  If you look at their computer revenue it is still incredibly low.



This. The desktop market is losing steam pretty bad since most everyday tasks can be done on a tablet or a laptop, a lot of people don't want to dedicate the space or money or having a desktop. I disagree with this but I'm also a programmer/system admin, I spend more time in front of a computer than I do sleeping so enjoying the machine I use is a must. Where having to enjoy your machine isn't different, the reason for why the average consumer wants a computer and why I want a computer are two very different things. So we (members of TPU and those who enjoy towers and upgrading them,) are a small niche and it's getting even smaller.

However I always see there being a use for workstations, I never see them going away but I do see them becoming less and less common.



Easy Rhino said:


> lol at all of the tpuers talking about "wasting" money. please, most of you spend WAY too much money on your rigs just so you can play video games. give me a break.


I spent a lot on my SB-E rig because I had not upgraded my rig in 3 years and I had particular things I wanted in my upgraded rig, something 1155 couldn't offer (VT-d + the ability to overclock, and 8-dimm slots is nice when 16Gb in 4 dimms isn't enough anymore). I suspect I won't be touching this machine for at least that long as well (except maybe a new monitor because one of mine appears to be failing but never seems to actually fail). At this point I really only play SC2 and Minecraft and even Minecraft I haven't played in a while, but gaming is one of the things I least do with this machine, not because I don't want to but because I'm usually using it to do something else.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 10, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Why run bootcamp when you can just buy a PC?



Why not get both? After all, TPU's mantra is "when in doubt get all"

Do I need 3570K? not really, no, but just in case. Do I need 7970? not really at 1080p, but just in case etc.


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## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Why not get both? After all, TPU's mantra is "when in doubt get all"
> 
> Do I need 3570K? not really, no, but just in case. Do I need 7970? not really at 1080p, but just in case etc.



...and when money grows on trees, I will become a tree farmer.


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## Tatty_One (Feb 10, 2013)

I always get entertained when reading mac related threads..... thank you all once again for your contributions in brightening up what would otherwise be a wet and dreary Sunday Morning..... on topic....... someone works hard.... 30..... 40...... 50 hours per week, saves up to buy some hardware........ takes them a year or two...... and then they get criticised for making their own choice in their purchase?   Really, has freedom of choice completely left our doorsteps


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 10, 2013)

Tatty_One said:


> someone works hard.... 30..... 40...... 50 hours per week, saves up to buy some hardware........ takes them a year or two...... and then they get criticised for making their own choice in their purchase?   Really, has freedom of choice completely left our doorsteps



My little nephew whose 7 or 8 wants a Macbook or Apple Mac, Hes doesnt know why he wants one but all he see's are well marketed ads on TV and billboards advertising it and think he wants one because it looks cool - He downloaded some software onto his laptop that mods the W7 Ui to look like an apple macs. He installed so much junk on it trying to make it into apple mac that in the end it was just totally unusable and there were a shit load of problems with it, 

you would think he learnt his lesson, but no... After he trashed his own laptop he proceeded to do the same thing to his family's PC which isnt exactly the most well specced machine in the world then complains to me about it running so slow...

Its not the first time ive had to bring both laptop and PC back to mine to have everything reinstalled and configured from the ground up. but as long as he knows that i'll keep taking away and fixing it then he'll keep breaking it...

So.... I fixed the issue for good by charging my uncle (his dad) a fee to fix the computers because he dont know shit about computers and nor does his son. I didnt want to do this but Ive already warned my nephew about installing all that crap and he just doesnt listen.


Macs poison the minds of the younger generation.

Even if i was to give my nephew one for his birthday or christmas, I know for a fact that the little runt wont know how to use it and will go back to his own Win7 laptop once he finds out that not all software is compatible with Macs.


So for that reason, People will bash other people for their decisions. Also this forum is quite anti-Apple so that doesnt help either.


People that build their own rigs understand the meaning of value and performance while others that dont and dont care to learn and could care less about value and what their hard earned cash really gets spent on.


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## Fourstaff (Feb 10, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> My little nephew whose 7 or 8 wants a Macbook or Apple Mac, Hes doesnt know why he wants one but all he see's are well marketed ads on TV and billboards advertising it and think he wants one because it looks cool - He downloaded some software onto his laptop that mods the W7 Ui to look like an apple macs. He installed so much junk on it trying to make it into apple mac that in the end it was just totally unusable and there were a shit load of problems with it,
> 
> you would think he learnt his lesson, but no... After he trashed his own laptop he proceeded to do the same thing to his family's PC which isnt exactly the most well specced machine in the world then complains to me about it running so slow...
> 
> ...



Retards will always be retards, no matter what circumstances. If there is no Apple do you think he will just let the PC sit as is without installing all that junk? Yes this forum is quite anti Apple because its much easier to "diss the odd one out". I am willing to bet an arm and a leg that most of the people here have never bothered to spend some time with Mac OS.


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## BarbaricSoul (Feb 10, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> I am willing to bet an arm and a leg that most of the people here have never bothered to spend some time with Mac OS.



Tried, too damn expensive compared to a PC. I'd love to try the current MAC OS, but I'm not willing to spend $2000+ to do so.


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## ensabrenoir (Feb 10, 2013)

*Sterotypes*

I think the biggest prob with apple.....isnt apple but the few elitist jerks (that we all seem to know) that trumpet apples absolute superiority and infallibility or use it as a status symbol.   Will prob get one just to see what all the fuss is about.  Do like their build / presentation though....but it all comes down to the software....


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## Fourstaff (Feb 10, 2013)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Tried, too damn expensive compared to a PC. I'd love to try the current MAC OS, but I'm not willing to spend $2000+ to do so.



You don't need to own one, just borrow it off someone for a few hours when you visit them etc.


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## BarbaricSoul (Feb 10, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> You don't need to own one, just borrow it off someone for a few hours when you visit them etc.



Again, too damn expensive, all my friends feel the same as I do, so they bought PCs also.


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## Tatty_One (Feb 10, 2013)

FreedomEclipse said:


> My little nephew whose 7 or 8 wants a Macbook or Apple Mac, Hes doesnt know why he wants one but all he see's are well marketed ads on TV and billboards advertising it and think he wants one because it looks cool - He downloaded some software onto his laptop that mods the W7 Ui to look like an apple macs. He installed so much junk on it trying to make it into apple mac that in the end it was just totally unusable and there were a shit load of problems with it,
> 
> you would think he learnt his lesson, but no... After he trashed his own laptop he proceeded to do the same thing to his family's PC which isnt exactly the most well specced machine in the world then complains to me about it running so slow...
> 
> ...



Not quite sure what that has to do with choice and working 50 hours a week but I know where your coming from


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## buildzoid (Feb 10, 2013)

*It is overpriced*

the current mac pros are slower than a 3970x at stock even the ones with 24 threads because they are on the westmere architecture and and max speed is 3.33Ghz SB-e is about 25-30% faster than westmere clock per clock. If you buy some mid range X79 board 32GB of 1600mhz ram and a HD7850/gtx 660 a 650w PSU and 2TB drives in raid 5 then you will totally destroy the Mac pro in price and performance as well as in software compatibility. And if you want cheaper throw out the 7850 and use a 6670 and you even cheaper.
BTW I am writing this of a Macbook PRO (it is one shitty shitty laptop)


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## Widjaja (Feb 10, 2013)

If I didn't know anything about computers and had money to burn, I would go for the Apple.
They are always well presented and the 'cool' people in the movies are always using them.

I would want to be cool too.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2013)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Tried, too damn expensive compared to a PC. I'd love to try the current MAC OS, but I'm not willing to spend $2000+ to do so.



You don't need to buy a current Mac to experience OSX. It really hasn't changed all the much in almost 10 years.


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## BarbaricSoul (Feb 10, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You don't need to buy a current Mac to experience OSX. It really hasn't changed all the much in almost 10 years.



Just a couple months ago, you advised me not to get a $150 older Mac to try out the Mac OS, because it was to outdated(it was like 5 years old).

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176552


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2013)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Just a couple months ago, you advised me not to get a $150 older Mac to try out the Mac OS, because it was to outdated(it was like 5 years old).
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176552



No it had a PowerPC processor. A G4 no less. Nothing will run on it. That's why I said that. If you just wanna mess with OSX that would be fine but I would hate for you to blow 150 bucks just to play with an OS.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 11, 2013)

Tatty_One said:


> I always get entertained when reading mac related threads..... thank you all once again for your contributions in brightening up what would otherwise be a wet and dreary Sunday Morning..... on topic....... someone works hard.... 30..... 40...... 50 hours per week, saves up to buy some hardware........ takes them a year or two...... and then they get criticised for making their own choice in their purchase?   Really, has freedom of choice completely left our doorsteps



this is tpu...where pc elitists spend thousands of dollars every year to upgrade their rig to play console ports at 200fps.. if you aren't using windows then you are a lamer who has bought into the apple fad!!111!!  nevermind that microsoft has been changing its entire direction to match apple's massively profitable business model. and nevermind that the next generation of consoles is going to put an end to pc gaming as we know it.  linux will be the last vestige for the pc gamer when only massive companies like EA,sony, and microsoft can afford to publish titles. gabe said linux is our get of jail free card so you better starting torrenting some distros


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## xenocide (Feb 11, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> this is tpu...where pc elitists spend thousands of dollars every year to upgrade their rig to play console ports at 200fps.. if you aren't using windows then you are a lamer who has bought into the apple fad!!111!!  nevermind that microsoft has been changing its entire direction to match apple's massively profitable business model. and nevermind that the next generation of consoles is going to put an end to pc gaming as we know it.  linux will be the last vestige for the pc gamer when only massive companies like EA,sony, and microsoft can afford to publish titles. gabe said linux is our get of jail free card so you better starting torrenting some distros



What on Earth are you talking about???

For starters, while there are a lot of users that spend thousands every year on hardware, those same users also pad the expenses by sellling rather modern hardware they are replacing to other users.  Suddenly going from a GTX580 to a GTX680 only costs $1-200 for a pretty nice performance bump.  On top of that, not everyone pays out the ass for top of the line systems to play console ports at 200fps.  The most popular games (based on topics and observation) on TPU are The Witcher 2, Far Cry 3, Skyrim, Battlefield 3, and DayZ.  Of those, most of them have PC versions that fully support modding and/or have DX11 support.  A few are even PC exclusives (for the time being in some cases).

Nextly, people like Windows (primarily 7) because it does everything well enough.  It's a jack of all trades OS that is hugely common and allows for you to do whatever you want.  Games?  Go for it.  Editting?  Go for it.  Graphic Design?  Shine on you crazy diamond.  OSX on the other hand, can do a few things very well, but has almost no support in other areas.  The reason Games are so common for TPU users, is because if you buy a $3-400 GPU, why wouldn't you play a lot of games?  It doesn't make sense to have that hardware if you're not going to use it.  Microsoft has been trying to get into the Tablet market, but who the hell hasn't?  You can buy tablets at Rite Aid for god sake...

The next-gen of consoles killing PC gaming?  Never happen.  PC Gaming will never die, as long as it offers the freedom to customize that consoles absolutely do not.  Also, software sales for PC games have been trending upwards for years, and for the past few years console software sales have trended _down_.  All a new generation of consoles will do is get consumers to buy a new console and maybe a few games this year.  The people who play consoles a lot will never be PC Gamers anyway, so it won't exactly hurt sales on the PC side of things.  I'd rather spend a few hundred every couple years upgrading my PC and buying software for dirt cheap than pay full price for games and a single investment of a few hundred dollars.  Especially when PC allows for upgrades, higher resolutions, and increased image quality thanks to things like MSAA and FXAA.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 11, 2013)

xenocide said:


> PC Gaming will never die, as long as it offers the freedom to customize that consoles absolutely do not.  Also, software sales for PC games have been trending upwards for years, and for the past few years console software sales have trended _down_.



pc game sales have been trending upwards because there hasn't been a new high end consoles since 2006. the wii u just came out and you already see an explosion in console games sales! once the ps4 and xbox 720 come out gamers will shift their purchases toward consoles. it happens every time. you already see very few games developed solely for the pc and that trend will continue so long as microsoft continues to wall off its environment making it even harder for independent devs (the future of pc gaming) to develop and have their titles released at a low cost. valve knows this. they have already laid the groundwork for an easy way to get your new game out there (greenlight) and have been actively developing steam for linux and getting some of their older titles out there for linux. that is the future of pc gaming. look at all the bloat in the huge game houses like EA.  they keep consolidated. THQ had to sell off its game houses. Everyone has been complaining about the major drop in quality of UBIsoft games. The ones that are surviving are the ones directly linked to the console creators. microsoft, sony, ninentdo all have several of their own game dev studios pumping out games that are raking in the big bucks. at the same time they have all rolled out their own content delivery platform to rival what steam has done for the PC. these are dark days but as gabe pointed out, we have a way out of it. a free and open platform is the future for pc gaming. adapt or die.


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## xenocide (Feb 11, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> pc game sales have been trending upwards because there hasn't been a new high end consoles since 2006. the wii u just came out and you already see an explosion in console games sales! once the ps4 and xbox 720 come out gamers will shift their purchases toward consoles. it happens every time.



There is *not* and explosion of console sales--software or hardware--surrounding the Wii U.  It's already being threatened as a flop because the console is selling so poorly, and there are no real games for it.  Check out the top software sales for this past week (globally).  There's only 2 Wii U games in the entire top 50.  One of which is packaged with the console.  So I don't buy for a second that consoles are driving sales through the roof in recent months.  The reason is probably because the Wii U is kind of a poorly marketted underpowered "next-gen" console.  Look at the hardware sales.  It hasn't even passed the PS Vita in sales numbers, a system that is widely considered a failure.  Just look up sales numbers for the Wii U, it's not pretty.



Easy Rhino said:


> you already see very few games developed solely for the pc and that trend will continue so long as microsoft continues to wall off its environment making it even harder for independent devs (the future of pc gaming) to develop and have their titles released at a low cost. valve knows this. they have already laid the groundwork for an easy way to get your new game out there (greenlight) and have been actively developing steam for linux and getting some of their older titles out there for linux. that is the future of pc gaming.



How is Windows walled off for Indie Dev's?  As far as I can see there is a huge Indie Dev presence on Windows, and it's part of the reason why PC Gaming is thriving.  I think you're misreading Valves intentions.  Valve more than anything loves creating markets.  When they started Steam digital distribution was not a feasible thing, and they now are the biggest and most valuable digital distribution platform on the internet.  I've seen interviews where Gabe Newell cites analysts telling him in meetings that expanding Steam to Russia and China was suicide because there was "no market" due to piracy, and explaining that they have continually turned a profit in these territories.  Linux is no different, there's a whole host of gamers that use Linux, or want to use Linux, but simply can't because nobody supports it.  This could really force Microsoft to abandon dragging Windows and by extention the PC into a tablet-centric universe.



Easy Rhino said:


> look at all the bloat in the huge game houses like EA.  they keep consolidated. THQ had to sell off its game houses. Everyone has been complaining about the major drop in quality of UBIsoft games.



They are publically traded companies.  They are held accountable to the stock holders, which means their hands are tied for the most part.  If CoD sells $1B every year, they would be crazy not to keep making them.  Ubisoft has always been a publisher drowning in crap, but they are actually one of the companies turning it around--Watch Dogs looks great, Far Cry 3 was awesome, the new Rayman looks awesome, and even AC3 wasn't too bad.  THQ went under because they were making interesting but mediocre games and spending an arm and a leg to do it.  I loved their Warhammer games, and SR3 was amazing, but outside of that they had almost nothing of quality--but still paid insanely to produce games.



Easy Rhino said:


> The ones that are surviving are the ones directly linked to the console creators. microsoft, sony, ninentdo all have several of their own game dev studios pumping out games that are raking in the big bucks. at the same time they have all rolled out their own content delivery platform to rival what steam has done for the PC.



That is entirely not true.  For _Nintendo_ only 1st Party games sell.  Mario anything will sell a crapload, but Sony and Microsoft aren't the only people making money.  Activision is making a ton of money off Call of Duty, EA made decent money on Mass Effect and BF3, 2K Games is always doing fine and Borderlands 2 was a huge success, Zenimax had a lot of success with Skyrim and associated DLC--and keep in mind, these are just Publishers.  The studios and publishers that are going under for the most part had underlying problems.  Usually paying way too much to make games that just aren't that good.

On top of that, the digital distribution on consoles is garbage.  PSN is a pile of crap, I'll admit that.  Xbox Live is okay, but when you're paying monthly just to use the service you're essentially overpaying for every aspect of the service.  If Steam charged monthly nobody would use it--okay, maybe they would, but nobody compares when it comes to Steam Sales.



Easy Rhino said:


> these are dark days but as gabe pointed out, we have a way out of it. a free and open platform is the future for pc gaming. adapt or die.



When exactly did he point that out?  Everything I've read has him pretty optimistic about the future of the PC as a platform, to the extent of him expanding PC presence to the living room with small cost-effective HTPC's.  Free and Open is ideal, but that's what PC Gamers are all about.  Steam is DRM, I'll admit that, but it also offers more tools and better functionality than any other platform out there.  Things like Steam Workshop and Steam Green Light are leading to amazing things in the world of PC Gaming, what does Xbox Live or PSN have by comparison?


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 11, 2013)

when the ps4 and xbox 720 are released pc gaming will be dead in the water. sales will be so low that the inevitable will happen. the big bloated companies will have to abandon the very expensive task of developing games for both the consoles and the pc. it's all over dude. the future of pc gaming is in linux where the open environment will produce some of the most talented young indie developers along with some of the most exciting action games of all time. the big companies can only keep turning out the same old crap year after year while the indie developers are creating fresh games with new ideas.


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## tokyoduong (Feb 11, 2013)

PC gaming will never be dead. Games like Company of Heroes can never do well in consoles. RPG games are better on PC. Indies titles are definitely going to be PC and it looks like this is one area that will bloom. I'm playing Chivalry and it's a great game despite some annoying bugs. I'm certainly seeing more indie games than ever before. The quality has also improved.

I don't think the problem with PC gaming is that it's dying, it's just that it's not growing as quickly as consoles and therefore seems like a shrinking marketshare.

Economically, on the supply side the curve will go up. If prices goes up then supply will go up. This is what is happening on the console market right now. There is a shift in the equilibrium to the right because of higher demand and higher prices. If you ever wonder and kept complaining about why developers shifted their resources to making console games first. They will go where it will most benefit them and it's all about $$. 

The other factor in the reduction of market share for PC is that console is considered inferior goods. Since 2008, it is a better economic choice for most people. Inferior goods have an inverse effect compared to market trend. People with no jobs, less money, that has a ton of free time on their hands will want a $300 console to entertain them instead of a $1000 computer. I was out of the job for a few months along with a few friends and this was a no brainer decision. We were not broke, it's just wise not to waste money when you're in between jobs in a tough economy.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 11, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> when the ps4 and xbox 720 are released pc gaming will be dead in the water. sales will be so low that the inevitable will happen. the big bloated companies will have to abandon the very expensive task of developing games for both the consoles and the pc. it's all over dude. ...



Man, you sound worst than those Apocalypse predictors or profets. Get a grip. PC gaming wont disappear and desktops wont disappear. :shadedshu


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 11, 2013)

Prima.Vera said:


> Man, you sound worst than those Apocalypse predictors or profets. Get a grip. PC gaming wont disappear and desktops wont disappear. :shadedshu



since microsoft continues to close off its environment to match apple's incredible business strategy pc gaming will cease to exist in its current form. 

what is ironic is that a lot of people hate apple because they are a walled garden. now that microsoft is moving rapidly in that direction will those same haters jump to linux where gabe and the entire valve/steam enterprise is putting their chips?


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 11, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> since microsoft continues to close off its environment to match apple's incredible business strategy pc gaming will cease to exist in its current form.
> 
> what is ironic is that a lot of people hate apple because they are a walled garden. now that microsoft is moving rapidly in that direction will those same haters jump to linux where gabe and the entire valve/steam enterprise is putting their chips?



You really think Gabe is putting all his chips in Linux because they decided to open that market?!  Yeah um sure. Steam will have a Windows 8 app soon.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 11, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You really think Gabe is putting all his chips in Linux because they decided to open that market?!  Yeah um sure. Steam will have a Windows 8 app soon.



no. stop trolling. valve has been very vocal about its support for linux. gabe called it a get out of jail free card. and, they said there will be more development for games for linux than for mac. the tide is turning and not even the trolls can stop it


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 11, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> no. stop trolling. valve has been very vocal about its support for linux. gabe called it a get out of jail free card. and, they said there will be more development for games for linux than for mac. the tide is turning and not even the trolls can stop it



Dude your running on wishful thinking more than anything. Linux over taking MS market share in the next 10 years? Not a chance and Gabe likes to make money. Remember when he said he hated the PS3 then 6 months later Steam debuted on it? Yeah welcome to reality.


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## xenocide (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> when the ps4 and xbox 720 are released pc gaming will be dead in the water. sales will be so low that the inevitable will happen. the big bloated companies will have to abandon the very expensive task of developing games for both the consoles and the pc. it's all over dude. the future of pc gaming is in linux where the open environment will produce some of the most talented young indie developers along with some of the most exciting action games of all time. the big companies can only keep turning out the same old crap year after year while the indie developers are creating fresh games with new ideas.



Except that in recent years companies have started *expanding* their support for PC Versions after realizing they can make good money as long as the game is properly supported.  Between 2009 and 2011 there wasn't a single AAA Game that came out that wasn't clearly a port, now there are plenty of games with things like High Resolution textures, multiple thread support, proper graphics settings, and mod support.  Sleeping Dogs, Borderlands 2, Skyrim, Far Cry 3, DmC, and quite a few other games are infinitely more enjoyable on PC.

PC already _has_ some of the best and most talented Indie Developers in the industry.  With games like Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, The Binding Of Isaac, Jamestown, The Legend of Grimrock, Natural Selection 2--the list goes on and on.  Sure a lot of these games have appeared on consoles, but most of them started on the PC, and really shine there.



Easy Rhino said:


> no. stop trolling. valve has been very vocal about its support for linux. gabe called it a get out of jail free card. and, they said there will be more development for games for linux than for mac. the tide is turning and not even the trolls can stop it



You're taking his words out of context.  He said that when Windows 8 was ready to release and Microsoft had their own "App Store" built into it, he feared it meant Microsoft would lock other companies out of distributing apps through Windows.  If that were the case Steam would pretty much cease to exist, and would be forced to move to a different OS or develop their own.  None of that ended up happening so as far as we know Steam is secure on Windows.

As for more development for games on Linux than Mac, that's because Mac-users generally aren't gamers.  There are plenty of tech-loving individuals that want to use Linux but are stuck with Windows because Linux has literally no support for games.  On top of that, to make Steambox cost-effective they need to cut out anything that adds to cost--like an operating system from a third party.  It will also allow them to work with a more streamlined PC Operating System, a customized version of Linux dedicated to running games is a lot more ideal than a bloated general purpose operating system like Windows.

I remember people said PC Gaming was dead when the Xbox 360 launched, and after 7-8 years the revenue has continued to go up.


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## Frick (Feb 12, 2013)

Why are you talking about gaming in a thread about a workstation?


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 12, 2013)

Widjaja said:


> If I didn't know anything about computers and had money to burn, I would go for the Apple.
> They are always well presented and the 'cool' people in the movies are always using them.
> 
> I would want to be cool too.



I always laugh when I see those, and have a snobbish and pathetic feeling for those characters...


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 12, 2013)

Frick said:


> Why are you talking about gaming in a thread about a workstation?



because apparently it is ok to spend $2000 on a gaming rig but not ok to spend the same amount of money on a mac pro.


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## Frick (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> because apparently it is ok to spend $2000 on a gaming rig but not ok to spend the same amount of money on a mac pro.



So they are not really worth arguing with. It's a workstation, compare it to workstations. Apples and oranges.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> because apparently it is ok to spend $2000 on a gaming rig but not ok to spend the same amount of money on a mac pro.



But it could play crysis!


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## 3870x2 (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> because apparently it is ok to spend $2000 on a gaming rig but not ok to spend the same amount of money on a mac pro.



It is just that the average PC has much more usefulness to the average person.  To me it is an inferior product because all I can really do with it is web surfing and play maybe a few games.  The fact is I could buy two PCs for the price of 1 mac, and sure the mac is probably built a bit better, but if I need to fix the mac, it could take the better part of a day (if I'm lucky and don't break something), whereas I can be in and out of any other laptop in an hour.

I can't even find myself recommending macs to people who only surf the web, because I am afraid that they might try and do something they know a PC can do, that a mac can't, and be disappointed.


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## Frick (Feb 12, 2013)

3870x2 said:


> It is just that the average PC has much more usefulness to the average person.  To me it is an inferior product because all I can really do with it is web surfing and play maybe a few games.  The fact is I could buy two PCs for the price of 1 mac, and sure the mac is probably built a bit better, but if I need to fix the mac, it could take the better part of a day (if I'm lucky and don't break something), whereas I can be in and out of any other laptop in an hour.



Because it is not of use to you does not make it a bad product. And they are not less useful than a PC for the avarage person, unless they are a hardcore games, but then they would probably default to Windows anyway. It's fine if you don't like them, but they are usually decent and the premium is not as big as people make it out to be when you compare them to equals. Are they for your facebooking grandma? No, not really, but neither is any computer for more than $400-500. So the real issue you have is that they don't do low end things?


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 12, 2013)

3870x2 said:


> It is just that the average PC has much more usefulness to the average person.  To me it is an inferior product because all I can really do with it is web surfing and play maybe a few games.  The fact is I could buy two PCs for the price of 1 mac, and sure the mac is probably built a bit better, but if I need to fix the mac, it could take the better part of a day (if I'm lucky and don't break something), whereas I can be in and out of any other laptop in an hour.
> 
> I can't even find myself recommending macs to people who only surf the web, because I am afraid that they might try and do something they know a PC can do, that a mac can't, and be disappointed.



well we are talking about this new mac pro, not the macbook pro. 

this new mac pro is pretty sweet and part for part only costs about $400 more than a PC if you built it yourself.  now obviously OSX costs a little bit more than Windows 8, the build quality of the mac pro is very good and the first year of support that comes with the purchase is considered the best in the industry. those three things alone make a big difference to someone considering this or a pc.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> well we are talking about this new mac pro, not the macbook pro.
> 
> this new mac pro is pretty sweet and part for part only costs about $400 more than a PC if you built it yourself.  now obviously OSX costs a little bit more than Windows 8, the build quality of the mac pro is very good and the first year of support that comes with the purchase is considered the best in the industry. those three things alone make a big difference to someone considering this or a pc.



How is the build quality better? I keep hearing this but from what I understand it uses most types of OEM parts of intel?


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 12, 2013)

brandonwh64 said:


> How is the build quality better? I keep hearing this but from what I understand it uses most types of OEM parts of intel?



The build quality IS NOT BETTER. That USED to be true. Not anymore.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The build quality IS NOT BETTER. That USED to be true. Not anymore.



This is what I had thought cause there are MANY cases out there that are much nicer than any of the MAC's I have seen also the hardware is very close to the intel components we use in PC's so that is were I was questioning the "Quality"?


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## ensabrenoir (Feb 12, 2013)

Its all about image......Bill Gates was a rock star and his products had a great presentation


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

After looking at the latest iMac and Mac Pro, These are build on all PC hardware... The only thing different between Mac Pro and a Dell Workstation is the OS

They are also still using a 2003 case design LOL


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 12, 2013)

brandonwh64 said:


> After looking at the latest iMac and Mac Pro, These are build on all PC hardware... The only thing different between Mac Pro and a Dell Workstation is the OS
> 
> They are also still using a 2003 case design LOL



which dell workstation are you comparing this mac pro to?


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> which dell workstation are you comparing this mac pro to?



T5600's Roughly the same when configured. Only difference is OS


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## Frick (Feb 12, 2013)

brandonwh64 said:


> After looking at the latest iMac and Mac Pro, These are build on all PC hardware... The only thing different between Mac Pro and a Dell Workstation is the OS
> 
> They are also still using a 2003 case design LOL



Sigh. Ok. The Mac Pro has not had an update since like 2010. Which is what this thread is about, a supposed refresh plus a hope that the entire thing will be updated. And all Macs have had PC hardware since 2006. I really have no idea what your point is.

And the only difference is not only the OS. You have to look at how it is to upgrade, support etc.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

Frick said:


> Sigh. Ok. The Mac Pro has not had an update since like 2010. Which is what this thread is about, a supposed refresh plus a hope that the entire thing will be updated. And all Macs have had PC hardware since 2006. I really have no idea what your point is.
> 
> And the only difference is not only the OS. You have to look at how it is to upgrade, support etc.



It shows on their page the new updates to Mac Pro such as the newer xeons so my point is that the hardware compares to a Dell workstation and that they seem to have only different OS's

I know dell support is quite good especially here at my company. If we have a dell workstation die, its replaced same day through dell local support.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 12, 2013)

brandonwh64 said:


> T5600's Roughly the same when configured. Only difference is OS



no, how exactly did you configure it? because if you look at the mid-range Dell it is $2000 WITHOUT THE SERVICE AGREEMENT.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> no, how exactly did you configure it? because if you look at the mid-range Dell it is $2000 WITHOUT THE SERVICE AGREEMENT.



Most workstations that are purchased are through tech level agreements with companys. I do not see anyone needing these for home use.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 12, 2013)

brandonwh64 said:


> Most workstations that are purchased are through tech level agreements with companys. I do not see anyone needing these for home use.



i can't seem to make a good one to one comparison. the companies offer different solutions to similar problems. one happens to cost a little bit more. it just so happens that the more expensive one is the mac pro and you can chalk that up to brand recognition, build quality, superior technical support, and the operating system (whether you like it or not.)


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 12, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> i can't seem to make a good one to one comparison. the companies offer different solutions to similar problems. one happens to cost a little bit more. it just so happens that the more expensive one is the mac pro and you can chalk that up to brand recognition, build quality, superior technical support, and the operating system (whether you like it or not.)



Really were I was coming from is it goes off what your company needs. Windows or IOS


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## buildzoid (Feb 13, 2013)

the Mac pros suck they use cheap AMD GPUs with processors selling 2x the true price like seriously a max speced custom LGA2011 system will destroy (gaming also) it and cost less 9k$ vs 8k$


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## Aquinus (Feb 13, 2013)

buildzoid said:


> the Mac pros suck they use cheap AMD GPUs with processors selling 2x the true price like seriously a max speced custom LGA2011 system will destroy (gaming also) it and cost less 9k$ vs 8k$



Don't post if all you're going to do is troll.

If you're getting a Mac for gaming than you need to get your head examined. More often than not, a person getting a Mac Pro has a particular use case and most likely can benefit from having more than 4-6 cores. Most people aren't like, "LOL! I want to waste between 3k USD and 10k USD on a Mac for shits and giggles!" A 2P Mac Pro will eat most machines alive as far as CPU power as well. You make it sound like Xeon processors are cheap as well.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 13, 2013)

well i think my work here is done. i guess i probably confuse a lot of people and they think i am trolling. after all, i prefer linux as a desktop OS, i really like mac products, and i need a windows rig for gaming. people like me do exist.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 13, 2013)

Easy Rhino said:


> no, how exactly did you configure it? because if you look at the mid-range Dell it is $2000 WITHOUT THE SERVICE AGREEMENT.



FYI AppleCare is invalid in a lot of states.


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