# Apple MacBook Pro 2018 Appears to Have a Serious Design Flaw



## btarunr (Feb 8, 2019)

Apple's MacBook Pro (2018) with the AMD Radeon RX Vega 20 graphics option appears to have a serious design flaw related to its video subsystem. The laptop tends to show severe screen flickering and lines crossing through the picture after waking up from extended periods of idling (after the display has turned off). The problem persists even through reboots. A reboot will make the flickering go away, however the next time the MacBook idles and decides to turn off its display, waking the machine will bring the flicker back. Most common remedies an enthusiast could think of, such as disabling the auto-switching between integrated- and discrete GPUs, and preventing the monitor from idling, don't appear to fix the problem. 

The problem was discovered on a brand new $4,500 15-inch MacBook Pro (Intel Core i9, AMD Vega 20, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD). Upon its discovery, it was taken to the Apple Store, where the employees immediately replaced it without further questions when they heard "display corruption after standby". The replacement process was hassle-free, it looks like others have faced this issue with this MacBook Pro model and Apple is trying to quickly resolve it to keep the lid on it. However, after a couple of days, the problem re-surfaced on the replacement MacBook, too. Both models were running MacOS "Mojave" version 10.14.2. 



 

 




TechPowerUp staff member Crmaris depended on this MacBook Pro to see him through the rigors of TechPowerUp's CES 2019 coverage, which includes image editing and video rendering on the move, which requires the serious CPU and GPU power on tap with this particular MacBook Pro variant. Video rendering and transcoding tasks can run up to hours, during which the MacBook usually sits unused, plugged in. By default, the monitor times out after a certain amount of time. Perhaps this is the key to reproducing the issue: let the display time out while the machine is utilizing the discrete GPU for something other than driving the display. Crmaris is also the editor of HardwareBusters, and has described the issue on a more personal level in the video linked below.

If you have encountered a similar issue, please do let us know in the comments below, so we can get an idea how widespread this problem is.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## krykry (Feb 8, 2019)

A problem with Apple products? UNBELIEVABLEH.

...Are you really tech news journalist?


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## bug (Feb 8, 2019)

You're obviously holding it wrong. $4,500+$379 (plus tax?) worth of wrong.


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## nemesis.ie (Feb 8, 2019)

@btarunner Is "Apple stuff" intentional or did you mean "staff"? 

I'd be returning it with such a glaring flaw, especially at the price.  Not that I would have bought one in the first place.


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## mad1394 (Feb 8, 2019)

I am guessing this tech journalist is not subscribed to Louis Rossmann on youtube. 
Ps:My friend bought a car last month...old audi a4 for 3800 euros


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## bug (Feb 8, 2019)

mad1394 said:


> I am guessing this tech journalist is not subscribed to Louis Rossmann on youtube.
> Ps:My friend bought a car last month...old audi a4 for 3800 euros


Go to craigslist and you can find cars for $2,000 or less


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 8, 2019)

Its all a set up. 

Apple deliberately engineer these faults and defects into their products so that you can take your faulty macbook to them in 3years time and they charge you $800-1000 for a '_new_' one. 'new' meaning a refurbed unit from the same year with the exact same 3 year old hardware specs.

Why do you think Apple are so against 'right to repair' and only have a select few of certified apple repair shops that are run by 3rd parties that can only use parts to repair faulty devices that come directly from them at a slightly cheaper price??

If you smashed up a samsung, sony, a huawei phone or any other brand of phone. any phone repair shop worth its salt could/would repair it for you with parts that theyve sourced themselves - any of these manufacturers have never really cared AFAIK. They wouldn't directly get involved and try to stop you replacing a battery or a screen/digitizer at any 3rd party phone repair shop. The onus is down to you that you find a repair shop that sources decent quality parts to replace your damaged/broken one with.

The only Pro consumer thing about Apple is when the time comes to take your money. Its only there and then where its the quickest possible transaction and no questions are asked about where you got the money from.


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## bonehead123 (Feb 8, 2019)

Apple products are designed and made by humans, just like every other mfgr's stuff is, so it is inevitable that some QA/QC issues will arise from time to time, even though they typically have, in general, been known for having a better track record than most other companies.

But in most cases, once an issue is identified, they also tend to stand behind their stuff somewhat better than some other companies too.

I remember years ago when my daughter's macbook pro of 2.5 years went kafooey... Since we had applecare, we took it to the local Apple store.  They checked it out, and promptly handed her a brand new one, no questions asked...and also did the data transfer too.

And yes, I have owned and used Macs in the past neveranottaproblemo, but that was before I started building my own windows rigs


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## repman244 (Feb 8, 2019)

This isn't the only flaw, the 6 core CPUs thermal throttle due to crap cooling and in some situations even the quad cores are faster.
I can't believe people pay so much for something that only looks good (even that is subjective) and can't even perform like it should.


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## bug (Feb 8, 2019)

bonehead123 said:


> Apple products are designed and *made by humans*, just like every other mfgr's stuff is, so it is inevitable that some QA/QC issues will arise from time to time, even though they typically have, in general, been known for having a better track record than most other companies.


Yes, every chassis and motherboard are handcrafted. Rolls Royce style 


bonehead123 said:


> But in most cases, once an issue is identified, they also tend to stand behind their stuff somewhat better than some other companies too.


Considering their inventory is one order of magnitude smaller than anybody else's, it would be really suspicious if they wouldn't.


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## Assimilator (Feb 8, 2019)

LOL. You buy s**t, you get s**t. Fools and their money are soon parted.


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## bug (Feb 8, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> LOL. You buy s**t, you get s**t. Fools and their money are soon parted.


Yeah, but in exchange he got a really powerful laptop that will last him for years. Oh wait...

Anyway, there are lemons everywhere, but it sucks when a company like Apple which keeps everything on a short leash sill manages to launch products having design flaws.


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## ArbitraryAffection (Feb 8, 2019)

Crapple

PS i'm surprised no one has tried to shift the blame to AMD


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## raptori (Feb 8, 2019)

Why would anyone buy a laptop for $4500 ?!!!  and the specs are nothing special.


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## ShurikN (Feb 8, 2019)

So what actually causes the issue? Both Vega 20 and HD630 work fine (as in, do not have this problem)


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## willace (Feb 8, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> So what actually causes the issue? Both Vega 20 and HD630 work fine (as in, do not have this problem)



LCD (LED) panel issue, Apple design issue (bad display cable, or bad screen controller chip), QA/QC problem, etc......

Mostly should be Apple not doing their job to make sure this kind of problem won't happen.


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## ryun (Feb 8, 2019)

This reads like a driver or even firmware problem. I'd be surprised if apple couldn't fix it with a software update so I'm not sure why this is labeled as a "serious design flaw".

Not defending apple, they should get a fix ASAP to users. But unless it's been confirmed that it can't be fixed in an update I think the title is hyperbolic.


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## bug (Feb 8, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> So what actually causes the issue? Both Vega 20 and HD630 work fine (as in, do not have this problem)


Some chip they tacked onto the LCD connection cable so you can't replace with "cheap knock-offs" maybe?
They put all sorts of proprietary stuff in there, who could tell what failed this time?


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## Midland Dog (Feb 8, 2019)

shitty rip off of space invaders 7nm edition


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## king of swag187 (Feb 8, 2019)

Imagine buying a $4900 machine and it does this.
Laughable.
His fault for going Apple in the first place


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## notb (Feb 8, 2019)

OMG. A thread about an Apple product and so much hatred. Unbelievable. Grow up guys.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 8, 2019)

I don't think there was ever a Mac without some major flaw. It's really hilarious they sell these crazy expensive laptops which they hardly change over the years and they're still always plagued by some sort of issue.


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## XXL_AI (Feb 8, 2019)

karma is a bitch.
apple picked a fight with nvidia years ago when nvidia gpus started melting in their terrible case design.


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## cdawall (Feb 8, 2019)

raptori said:


> Why would anyone buy a laptop for $4500 ?!!!  and the specs are nothing special.



There are other laptops with that profile with those same specs?


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## ZoneDymo (Feb 8, 2019)

notb said:


> OMG. A thread about an Apple product and so much hatred. Unbelievable. Grow up guys.



Growing up has little to do with it, its kinda seemingly in the human soul to hate on whatever is new, different and successful.
That said, Apple might do some things very well, but they are quite a crappy company as well.
But that crappyness might be the reason for their success.


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## XXL_AI (Feb 8, 2019)

ZoneDymo said:


> Growing up has little to do with it, its kinda seemingly in the human soul to hate on whatever is new, different and successful.
> That said, Apple might do some things very well, but they are quite a crappy company as well.
> But that crappyness might be the reason for their success.


nope, we're just amazed how people likes to get f*cked by a company which doesn't give a flying f. about it's customers. 
I don't hate apple, apple is forcing innovation, others following by creating "better" hardware. apple is the artist of the computer world, asus, msi, hp, dell are the engineers.


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## ZoneDymo (Feb 8, 2019)

XXL_AI said:


> nope, we're just amazed how people likes to get f*cked by a company which doesn't give a flying f. about it's customers.
> I don't hate apple, apple is forcing innovation, others following by creating "better" hardware. apple is the artist of the computer world, asus, msi, hp, dell are the engineers.



I mean, what do you base this on? quite consistently Apples products rise above what the competition puts out as a means to copy what Apple is doing, atleast thats what professional reviewers conclude time and time again.
And if others "like to get f*cked by a company" or maybe dont even see it as such, how does that impact anyone else? why do people feel the need to drop hate fueled comments every time anything is written about Apple, or Tesla, or Justin Bieber, etc etc etc etc? Its like people being against gay marriage or something.


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## Imsochobo (Feb 8, 2019)

ZoneDymo said:


> I mean, what do you base this on? quite consistently Apples products rise above what the competition puts out as a means to copy what Apple is doing, atleast thats what professional reviewers conclude time and time again.
> And if others "like to get f*cked by a company" or maybe dont even see it as such, how does that impact anyone else? why do people feel the need to drop hate fueled comments every time anything is written about Apple, or Tesla, or Justin Bieber, etc etc etc etc? Its like people being against gay marriage or something.



Apple have started copying others more lately.
They never have bad products per se but the difference is smaller now.

This might as well be on AMD and not apple, wouldn't be the first time an gpu manufacturer is the cause (Nvidia!) on some of the products it's apple's fault.
Overall apple has higher death rate of the products because of design over function at all cost.
Some poeple like that, I am not one of them, OSX is pretty ok (have hackintosh on my rig too  )


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## ShurikN (Feb 8, 2019)

cdawall said:


> There are other laptops with that profile with those same specs?


No, and there isn't even a MacBook Pro with those same specs considering how much it throttles.


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## XXL_AI (Feb 8, 2019)

ZoneDymo said:


> I mean, what do you base this on? quite consistently Apples products rise above what the competition puts out as a means to copy what Apple is doing, atleast thats what professional reviewers conclude time and time again.
> And if others "like to get f*cked by a company" or maybe dont even see it as such, how does that impact anyone else? why do people feel the need to drop hate fueled comments every time anything is written about Apple, or Tesla, or Justin Bieber, etc etc etc etc? Its like people being against gay marriage or something.



We want people to read, search and commit to buying products with intelligence. Almost all intelligent beings tends to hate stupid ones.
Most of the ignorant people likes to get carried away by their idiom and they want to continue their life like they used to. Intelligent people can adapt and improve. Stupid can talk and criticize nothing more, youtube full of these people, one of the biggest tech/channels on youtube pewdiepie, ltt, gamersnexus instigate this instinct on homo sapiens.


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## raptori (Feb 8, 2019)

cdawall said:


> There are other laptops with that profile with those same specs?



DELL Precision 5530 @ *$2,709 *I didn't went deep in customizing the specs just the main components : * Intel Core i9-8950HK*  + *32GB,DDR4-2666MHz Non-ECC *+ *M.2 1TB NVMe PCIe SSD *+ *Nvidia Quadro P2000 w/4GB GDDDR5*

https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/sho...iOlt7IklkIjoiRzhCWFdZSSJ9XX1dfQ==&cartItemId=



ThinkPad P1 Mobile Workstation @ *$2,904* with *Intel® Xeon® E-2176M *( Not i9 but Comparable)*  (6 Core (2.70GHz, up to 4.40GHz))* + *32 GB DDR4 2666MHz ECC* + *1TB PCIe-NVMe OPAL2.0 M.2*  + *Nvidia Quadro P2000 4GB *

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/20MD...8f45c-0230-4b30-bbf0-aad903e96099&options_11=


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## king of swag187 (Feb 8, 2019)

For $4800, you can get a fully configged P870TM1 with a 8700K+Dual 1080's




ZoneDymo said:


> I mean, what do you base this on? quite consistently Apples products rise above what the competition puts out as a means to copy what Apple is doing, atleast thats what professional reviewers conclude time and time again.
> And if others "like to get f*cked by a company" or maybe dont even see it as such, how does that impact anyone else? why do people feel the need to drop hate fueled comments every time anything is written about Apple, or Tesla, or Justin Bieber, etc etc etc etc? Its like people being against gay marriage or something.


If you mean rise above in purely how many flaws there are, sure


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## cdawall (Feb 8, 2019)

raptori said:


> DELL Precision 5530 @ *$2,709 *I didn't went deep in customizing the specs just the main components : * Intel Core i9-8950HK*  + *32GB,DDR4-2666MHz Non-ECC *+ *M.2 1TB NVMe PCIe SSD *+ *Nvidia Quadro P2000 w/4GB GDDDR5*
> 
> https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/pdr/precision-15-5530-laptop/xctop5530hwus?selectionState=eyJPQyI6InhjdG9wNTUzMGh3dXMiLCJNb2RzIjpbeyJJZCI6MywiT3B0cyI6W3siSWQiOiJHSk1TVDRLIn1dfSx7IklkIjo2LCJPcHRzIjpbeyJJZCI6IkcwU01ZNTkifV19LHsiSWQiOjgsIk9wdHMiOlt7IklkIjoiR0s5SjE4TiJ9XX0seyJJZCI6MTEsIk9wdHMiOlt7IklkIjoiR1dJOTg2WSJ9XX0seyJJZCI6MTQ2LCJPcHRzIjpbeyJJZCI6IkdDQldaVTIifV19LHsiSWQiOjE0OSwiT3B0cyI6W3siSWQiOiJHNUdBSUM4In1dfSx7IklkIjo3NDksIk9wdHMiOlt7IklkIjoiRzhCWFdZSSJ9XX1dfQ==&cartItemId=
> 
> ...



Those laptops are as thick as my 2014 MBP.


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## ZoneDymo (Feb 8, 2019)

XXL_AI said:


> We want people to read, search and commit to buying products with intelligence. Almost all intelligent beings tends to hate stupid ones.
> Most of the ignorant people likes to get carried away by their idiom and they want to continue their life like they used to. Intelligent people can adapt and improve. Stupid can talk and criticize nothing more, youtube full of these people, one of the biggest tech channels on youtube pewdiepie, ltt, gamersnexus instigate this instinct on homo sapiens.



I dont think its very intelligent to hate on the less intelligent....
Also cannot believe you called pewdiepie a "tech channel" and called it in the same sentence/breath as gamersnexus.
Lastly non of it answered anything I said


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## bug (Feb 8, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Those laptops are as thick as my 2014 MBP.


Here's the thing, outside Apple nobody buys laptops by the mm or kg.
You're seriously telling me two similarly configured laptops priced over $1k apart aren't comparable because one of them is like 5mm thicker? Well, here's something for your thought: the thicker laptop will do better job cooling that CPU and actually give you better performance.


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## cdawall (Feb 8, 2019)

bug said:


> Here's the thing, outside Apple nobody buys laptops by the mm or kg.
> You're seriously telling me two similarly configured laptops priced over $1k apart aren't comparable because one of them is like 5mm thicker? Well, here's something for your thought: the thicker laptop will do better job cooling that CPU and actually give you better performance.



Quite a few people buy laptops based on size. Mainly people who travel and don't want a 14lb brick carried around with them.

A huge number of modern companies also fully engulf the applesphere of tech so using Apple products becomes basically expected and almost impossible to do without them.

Most people using these or even the ones you linked are doing a 4hr render of whatever. Having the added cooling capacity is wasted space for a large portion of the people actually purchasing these. My 4980HQ based MBP absolutely throttles. It also wipes the floor with anything in its class.

I don't care your opinion on Apple. The laptops are brilliant feats in engineering. Makes the MSI and Dell products look like they were designed by toddlers with crayons.


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## king of swag187 (Feb 8, 2019)

You're one funny man is all I can say...


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## XXL_AI (Feb 8, 2019)

ZoneDymo said:


> I dont think its very intelligent to hate on the less intelligent....
> Also cannot believe you called pewdiepie a "tech channel" and called it in the same sentence/breath as gamersnexus.
> Lastly non of it answered anything I said


-intelligent hates the ignorant and they use them worldwide, you have to see the big picture.
-you missed the / between tech and channel.
-in the end it is all related to ignorance or knowledge, if you can't understand this I don't think you'll understand anything at all.


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## cdawall (Feb 8, 2019)

king of swag187 said:


> You're one funny man is all I can say...



Ever taken apart the pair? MSI is the closest laptop in size and probably quality and you take it apart and it looks like a 2008 MBP design. Tons of terrible nonsense all over that gets brittle and fails.

The logic boards also seem to have 3-4 the lifespan an alienware of a similar gen. I can't tell you just how many Dell boards I replaced because the dumb things went bad.


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## Totally (Feb 8, 2019)

ZoneDymo said:


> I mean, what do you base this on? quite consistently Apples products rise above what the competition puts out as a means to copy what Apple is doing, atleast thats what professional reviewers conclude time and time again.
> And if others "like to get f*cked by a company" or maybe dont even see it as such, how does that impact anyone else? why do people feel the need to drop hate fueled comments every time anything is written about Apple, or Tesla, or Justin Bieber, etc etc etc etc? Its like people being against gay marriage or something.



That hasn't been the case for years, Steve jobs was still alive and cancer free when that was remotely true.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Feb 8, 2019)

I’ll tell you what, I’ve owned a lot of hardware over the years, and Apple has had a really good track record of durability for me. Maybe things have changed in recent years—especially on ultra-thin laptops, but every iOS device I’ve owned has worked well for years, and my desktop Macs ran just fine (had a perfectly functional 2009 cMP that I just sold last year). I always found Apple hardware to be quite well engineered to be honest. Compared to the many MS devices I’ve owned (Surfaces, Bands, Xbox, Lumia), the differences are night and day. I’ve RMAed more MS hardware than I can count. I won’t tell you Apple is perfect, but they have produced a lot of worry free devices for me. 

That said, I do think Apple tried to stick too much hardware into too thin a chassis, so I’m not surprised that there are thermal or other issues. I do wonder about the GPU, too—are there even any other Vega 20 laptops on the market?


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 8, 2019)

It's not a design flaw, it's a driver/firmware/operating system bug which will likely get fixed pretty quick.


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## Aquinus (Feb 9, 2019)

A single device failed? My god, call in the military, we desperately need assistance!


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## TheinsanegamerN (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Those laptops are as thick as my 2014 MBP.


Oh NO! An extra .3 inches thick! My POOR BACK! Wont somebody think of those without muscles!


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## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Oh NO! An extra .3 inches thick! My POOR BACK! Wont somebody think of those without muscles!



Dude I barely wear clothes when I travel. Which is more often than probably a lot of people on here. Trust me 0.3" and half a pound for something with similar performance, but somehow worse battery life? Lol yea y'all keep hating apple products. I'm going to keep using my 2014 MBP which still maintains solid performance today. Something I cannot say about any thin and light windows machine.


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## jonnyGURU (Feb 9, 2019)

"TechPowerUp staff member Crmaris depended on this MacBook Pro to see him through the rigors of TechPowerUp's CES 2019 coverage, which includes image editing and video rendering on the move, which requires the serious CPU and GPU power on tap with this particular MacBook Pro variant."

Why would anyone knowingly do this to themselves when it's obvious there are more capable laptops on the market?


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## Assimilator (Feb 9, 2019)

jonnyGURU said:


> "TechPowerUp staff member Crmaris depended on this MacBook Pro to see him through the rigors of TechPowerUp's CES 2019 coverage, which includes image editing and video rendering on the move, which requires the serious CPU and GPU power on tap with this particular MacBook Pro variant."
> 
> Why would anyone knowingly do this to themselves when it's obvious there are more capable laptops on the market?



The master has spoken.


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## Patriot (Feb 9, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's not a design flaw, it's a driver/firmware/operating system bug which will likely get fixed pretty quick.


Which is why they hastily traded out the device, you need X amount to root cause the issue.
As an engineer, when something fails... you want as many devices that reproduce as possible.

Years ago I made the mistake of trying to help track down fail state on drive carriers... they wanted 4 drive carriers with fail states...
Found 1 carrier in 2k drives...  I made myself unavailable for future research sessions.


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## xtreemchaos (Feb 9, 2019)

the last good macbook pro was the 2012-14 the all alloy one with the i7 quad core since then thay have gone down hill and up in price. charl.


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## XXL_AI (Feb 9, 2019)

jonnyGURU said:


> "TechPowerUp staff member Crmaris depended on this MacBook Pro to see him through the rigors of TechPowerUp's CES 2019 coverage, which includes image editing and video rendering on the move, which requires the serious CPU and GPU power on tap with this particular MacBook Pro variant."
> 
> Why would anyone knowingly do this to themselves when it's obvious there are more capable laptops on the market?


if you are good at programming you can utilize the Nvidia's rendering capabilities to accelerate your video processing by 3x@4K, 10x@1080p. You don't need to use anything special, you just need a lot of space to save raw footage from premiere pro as AVI then compress it with ffmpeg to get the perfect result.
for image editing, you can always use opencv & python.
I have never needed anything more than core i5 & gtx1050 as a mobile workstation, my previous machine had i7&960M almost similar performance.


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## TheGuruStud (Feb 9, 2019)

Fun fact: all of them have multiple, serious, intentional design flaws to make sure it fails. And then they do everything they can to lie to the customer and block repair shops.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2019)

So after bendgate and antennagate we now have... wakeygate?

I wonder how long Apple can keep this up. Their product portfolio is rapidly deteriorating.


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## ssdpro (Feb 9, 2019)

I think the article gets the serious design flaw wrong. The serious design flaw is OSX. You can't have common sense and figure out how to make that OS work efficiently. My boss is a Macnut and I am forced to use a Mac Pro at work. It is so painful to use I routinely get work done at home then port it over. Everything takes 3x longer using OSX.


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## ensabrenoir (Feb 9, 2019)

....apple greatest strength is its ecosystem which gets you locked in.  It starts with a cool phone and  then boom you gotta get everything to match.........Whooaaa Apple is the Garanimals of the tech world.   Just another case of  brand recognition  being more powerful/valuable than the reality of the product.


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## raptori (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Those laptops are as thick as my 2014 MBP.











At the thickest point DELL is thicker by 0.05 inch (*1.27 millimeters* ).


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 9, 2019)

Most people don't understand and choose to hate on Apple for being overpriced. Tell me something, what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one? None of them. They have had a bit of bad press recently and I think that has to do with lack of real leadership. But it seems more and more all tech companies are coming under greater scrutiny these days. But why? The tech advances are piling up and people still find something to complain about. People who can't do basic calculus acting like they have a right to complain about engineering problems.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one?



They do that because they're laptops are mostly 
unrepairable.


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## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

raptori said:


> View attachment 116112
> 
> 
> 
> At the thickest point DELL is thicker by 0.05 inch (*1.27 millimeters* ).



It's also a plastic case and we'll known for logic board failures.



Vya Domus said:


> They do that because they're laptops are mostly
> unrepairable.



Ever worked on them to make that claim?


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## XXL_AI (Feb 9, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> Most people don't understand and choose to hate on Apple for being overpriced. Tell me something, what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one? None of them. They have had a bit of bad press recently and I think that has to do with lack of real leadership. But it seems more and more all tech companies are coming under greater scrutiny these days. But why? The tech advances are piling up and people still find something to complain about. People who can't do basic calculus acting like they have a right to complain about engineering problems.


Lenovo and Dell does replace your Thinkpad or Precision.


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## TheGuruStud (Feb 9, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> Most people don't understand and choose to hate on Apple for being overpriced. Tell me something, what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one? None of them. They have had a bit of bad press recently and I think that has to do with lack of real leadership. But it seems more and more all tech companies are coming under greater scrutiny these days. But why? The tech advances are piling up and people still find something to complain about. People who can't do basic calculus acting like they have a right to complain about engineering problems.



You haven't been paying attention. Many times they don't and just lie blaming the user. You can buy applecare all you want and you still won't get a repair/replacement. This gets you a replacement b/c it's too new and undeniable and they already have enough class actions.


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## Assimilator (Feb 9, 2019)

raptori said:


> View attachment 116112
> 
> 
> 
> At the thickest point DELL is thicker by 0.05 inch (*1.27 millimeters* ).



Apple fanboys: "DELL IS LITERALLY UNUSABLE".



Easy Rhino said:


> Most people don't understand and choose to hate on Apple for being overpriced. Tell me something, what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one? None of them. They have had a bit of bad press recently and I think that has to do with lack of real leadership. But it seems more and more all tech companies are coming under greater scrutiny these days. But why? The tech advances are piling up and people still find something to complain about. People who can't do basic calculus acting like they have a right to complain about engineering problems.



"You can't criticise something if you can't design it"... seriously? Are you and your nonexistent debating skills for real?


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 9, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> "You can't criticise something if you can't design it... seriously? Are you and your nonexistent debating skills for real?



You really can't. It just sounds like complaining. Now if you can layout an engineering trace of the problem and explain why their mistake was so bad then I will listen. Tell me how you would have approached the problem from an engineering perspective and what steps would you take at this point to ensure the problem does not happen.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Feb 9, 2019)

Apple products are indeed serviceable. It’s not always easy, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Many claim you can’t replace iPhone batteries, but I’ve done it multiple times. Apple can open a late model MacBook /Pro and replace the keyboard, screen, battery, speakers, ports, logic board, etc. Whether they elect to do so might come down to something as simple as “hey, your repair will take 1-2 weeks to troubshoot and get parts, or you can just swap it out for one we have in stock today. We can transfer your files and settings over and send you on your way.” That seems like a customer service win to me. 

Honestly, customer service is quite variable, and most companies respond differently depending on the situation. A part of my job involves customer service, and the way I respond often depends on how the customer is behaving. Some customers can’t communicate well or misunderstand what my company does, others lie compulsively or get belligerent to try to force my hand. Some go to social media, the news, or a lawyer when they don’t like what they hear and claim they got crapped on by the company that they just tried to get one over on. I deal with enough of it that I take any of these customer experience stories with a big grain of salt.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

XXL_AI said:


> Lenovo and Dell does replace your Thinkpad or Precision.



No they don't. They absolutely just do a repair and send a refurb out if it is a replacement. 

Now Lenovo will hold onto you matching for 6 months until you complain loud enough for them to send you a new one out.


----------



## R0H1T (Feb 9, 2019)

Yeah Lenovo's not known for their CS & neither is Dell much better these days. Though depending on region or country your mileage will vary wrt after sales & CC support.


----------



## raptori (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> It's also a plastic case and we'll known for logic board failures.



I like that you keep finding a new "feature" to hold on after failing to justify the previous ones ,"plastic case" and "logic board failures" hahahaa , it's a lost cause trying to reason with Apple fanboys.


----------



## XXL_AI (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> No they don't. They absolutely just do a repair and send a refurb out if it is a replacement.
> 
> Now Lenovo will hold onto you matching for 6 months until you complain loud enough for them to send you a new one out.


your proof? did you order the extended warranty to make that claim? Thinkpad's and Precision models are workstations and they are mission critical computers. Don't confuse them with cheapass notebooks. I've seen hundreds of notebooks from msi, asus failed at the field.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Ever worked on them to make that claim?



Even if I did, would it matter ? There are businesses out there that specialize in repairing Apple products only and even they will be unable to fix certain problems.

You only have to see one of them apart and it becomes pretty obvious that they are not just difficult to repair they are specifically designed that way.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

XXL_AI said:


> your proof? did you order the extended warranty to make that claim? Thinkpad's and Precision models are workstations and they are mission critical computers. Don't confuse them with cheapass notebooks. I've seen hundreds of notebooks from msi, asus failed at the field.



Yea I actually own a business class Thinkpad with an extended warranty. I know exactly how the situation goes. It's not a cheap model. 

I also worked as a level 3 tech at a major repair shop so y'all consistently arguing which machines are hard or easy to repair without ever touching them literally blows my mind. This whole I saw a picture on Google nonsense is a joke. Tell you what find me a working slimline precision or XPS 15 from 3-4 years ago. I can tell you they don't exist because every single one of them that was sold came back with a bad logic board. 



Vya Domus said:


> Even if I did, would it matter ? There are businesses out there that specialize in repairing Apple products only and even they will be unable to fix certain problems.
> 
> You only have to see one of them apart and it becomes pretty obvious that they are not just difficult to repair they are specifically designed that way.



It absolutely matters. Please stop telling me what's easy to repair without doing it.



raptori said:


> I like that you keep finding a new "feature" to hold on after failing to justify the previous ones ,"plastic case" and "logic board failures" hahahaa , it's a lost cause trying to reason with Apple fanboys.



What on earth are you talking about? Plastic laptops piss me off. I have a $2500 acer predator on my desk right now... It's built like garbage.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Please stop telling me what's easy to repair without doing it.



I ain't telling anyone anything but you are aware that this "but did you do it?" argument is one of the weakest you can have, right ? Literally conveys no proof of anything or reason on why I shouldn't say something.


----------



## repman244 (Feb 9, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> Most people don't understand and choose to hate on Apple for being overpriced. Tell me something, what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one? None of them.



HP, Lenovo, Dell (looking at workstations of course), and whats the point of Apple replacing it if it has design flaws? You will end up with same problems (like crap cooling).


----------



## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> I ain't telling anyone anything but you are aware that this "but did you do it?" argument is one of the weakest you can have, right ? Literally conveys no proof of anything or reason on why I shouldn't say something.



The argument is better than "I saw a picture of it on the internet".

Would you like me to get specific as to why the apple ones are easier to work on? I absolutely can.


----------



## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Would you like me to get specific as to why the apple ones are easier to work on? I absolutely can.



You can but it would still not outweigh the plethora of contradictory claims that have piled up over the years. I would much rather trust the hundreds of reports, videos and yes even images that paint a different picture than the one you describe.

You are quite literally one of the only people that I have heard claim Apple products are easily serviceable.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> You can but it would still not outweigh the plethora of contradictory claims that have piled up over the years. I would much rather trust the hundreds of reports, videos and yes even images that paint a different picture than the one you describe.
> 
> You are quite literally one of the only people that I have heard claim Apple products are easily serviceable.



Are those claims saying you can't change the ram, ssd and gpu? Because that is absolutely true. It's a single pcb to replace everything in the current ones. This isn't any different than anything else in its class.

The board change is cake. You remove the torx screws that everyone copied apple and uses now.

Remove about 14 screws, 5-6 well built cables and the cooler.

I'm sorry if you find that more difficult than the 8 layers of plastic in most modern laptops to just get to the logic board.

Most of the complaints about "serviceability" of a Mac have zero to do with replacing parts and everything to do with a closed ecosystem for parts.

Now if we were talking 2009 and older model macs? Absolutely terrible products to work on. The newer ones are cake.


----------



## bug (Feb 9, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> Most people don't understand and choose to hate on Apple for being overpriced. Tell me something, what other company will replace your laptop with a brand new one? None of them.



https://hexus.net/tech/news/systems/21300-apple-denies-smokers-warranties/


----------



## cdawall (Feb 9, 2019)

bug said:


> https://hexus.net/tech/news/systems/21300-apple-denies-smokers-warranties/



Is this legal, because if it is I am absolutely down. It ruins computers.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 10, 2019)

Apple is obligated to fix it:
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties

The product obviously has a design flaw so the consumer is entitled to repair, replace, or refund.  Hope the individuals were able to get it sorted.  If Apple didn't willingly take care of it, take Apple to small claims court.  Apple probably won't send lawyer to appear and the court will order Apple to pay the value of the computer to the plaintiff.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Apple is obligated to fix it:
> https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties
> 
> The product obviously has a design flaw so the consumer is entitled to repair, replace, or refund.  Hope the individuals were able to get it sorted.  If Apple didn't willingly take care of it, take Apple to small claims court.  Apple probably won't send lawyer to appear and the court will order Apple to pay the value of the computer to the plaintiff.



They are replacing them. I thought we already went over that? We aren't talking about dell or hp here.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 10, 2019)

I was talking about the smoker warranty voiding.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I was talking about the smoker warranty voiding.



If smoking caused the failure it absolutely would void the warranty. Thats a simple thing to prove. Fan bearings full of tar don't happen in a smoke free environment. Any subsequent failure caused by that wouldn't be covered.

Just because someone smoked by choice doesn't mean the manufacturer has to cover that in the same way they kill warranties for non-spill related corrosion. Your environment doesn't meet normal product usage standards. 

I would actually love to see this in court. Means I could have told so many people to bugger off in the past that I fixed out of pure niceness.


----------



## Rockarola (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Are those claims saying you can't change the ram, ssd and gpu? Because that is absolutely true. It's a single pcb to replace everything in the current ones. This isn't any different than anything else in its class.
> 
> The board change is cake. You remove the torx screws that everyone copied apple and uses now.
> 
> ...


Torx, as in the de facto standard for professional electrical equipment, in general use since the early nineties, that Torx?
How did everyone copy that from Apple? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx?wprov=sfla1


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

Rockarola said:


> Torx, as in the de facto standard for professional electrical equipment, in general use since the early nineties, that Torx?
> How did everyone copy that from Apple?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx?wprov=sfla1



Which laptop prior to the MacBook pro used torx fasteners to secure the lower case to the body?

I didn't say they invented torx. I said they used it and everyone else all of a sudden did. Prove that untrue.


----------



## Rockarola (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Which laptop prior to the MacBook pro used torx fasteners to secure the lower case to the body?
> 
> I didn't say they invented torx. I said they used it and everyone else all of a sudden did. Prove that untrue.


Perhaps you should have specified that...besides Torx is a de facto standard, being the first to adopt it does not make everyone else a copycat. It just means that you have a more flexible line of supply and production. PLC controllers, relays and other industrial gear started using Torx in the early nineties. 
(bad argument, burden of proof does not belong to the one arguing against your point, it belongs to you)


----------



## shadad (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> You're obviously holding it wrong. $4,500+$379 (plus tax?) worth of wrong.



now this.. free plastic cover wont fix lol


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

Rockarola said:


> Perhaps you should have specified that...besides Torx is a de facto standard, being the first to adopt it does not make everyone else a copycat. It just means that you have a more flexible line of supply and production. PLC controllers, relays and other industrial gear started using Torx in the early nineties.
> (bad argument, burden of proof does not belong to the one arguing against your point, it belongs to you)



Really? Because I remember when they came out with torx screws attaching the lower case and the entire tech industry was up in arms about apple making products impossible for consumers to repair. Admittedly the design was the pentelobe and is considered a security bit.


----------



## Shambles1980 (Feb 10, 2019)

just gonna say this the only smoke to destroy a laptop would be the smoke coming out of it, and even then it wasnt the smoke.


----------



## Rockarola (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Really? Because I remember when they came out with torx screws attaching the lower case and the entire tech industry was up in arms about apple making products impossible for consumers to repair. Admittedly the design was the pentelobe and is considered a security bit.


As in T(for tamperproof) Torx, the one that requires a hollow screw-bit? Those bits were not available to the general public for quite a while, so I get the uproar. Back in ancient times they were used to make things tamper/theft proof in public installations.
(edit) Just checked, the Pentalobe is not a Torx drive, we might have been miscommunicating all along.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

Rockarola said:


> As in T(for tamperproof) Torx, the one that requires a hollow screw-bit? Those bits were not available to the general public for quite a while, so I get the uproar. Back in ancient times they were used to make things tamper/theft proof in public installations.
> (edit) Just checked, the Pentalobe is not a Torx drive, we might have been miscommunicating all along.



Yea very strongly could have they still label them as TS series bits, but they do appear to be a bit more limited usage.


----------



## Totally (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Ever worked on them to make that claim?



With all the videos on YT, does he/she?


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

Totally said:


> With all the videos on YT, does he/she?



I can make chocolate milk look difficult on YouTube. Just saying maybe some people should live on the outside of a computer for a day or two and see the outside world a bit. 

Apples aren't hard to physically work on.


----------



## Totally (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Are those claims saying you can't change the ram, ssd and gpu? Because that is absolutely true. It's a single pcb to replace everything in the current ones. This isn't any different than anything else in its class.
> 
> The board change is cake. You remove the torx screws that *everyone copied apple and uses now.*
> 
> ...



As compared to a laptop where you replace 4-5 to remove a panel that conveniently gives access to user serviceable components? If looking to completely open up the shell, to say replace the motherboard add in another 6-8 more.

*I haven't seen any of those godawful torx screws with peg in the middle on anything that isn't an Apple product.*




cdawall said:


> I can make chocolate milk look difficult on YouTube. Just saying maybe some people should live on the outside of a computer for a day or two and see the outside world a bit.
> 
> Apples aren't hard to physically work on.



Yeah, if they're aren't broken. The problem is when they break no matter how minor, it's easier/less hassle to replace the entire thing.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 10, 2019)

Totally said:


> As compared to a laptop where you replace 4-5 to remove a panel that conveniently gives access to user serviceable components? If looking to completely open up the shell, to say replace the motherboard add in another 6-8 more.
> 
> *I haven't seen any of those godawful torx screws with peg in the middle on anything that isn't an Apple product.*
> 
> ...



Just as a heads up. There is not a single laptop in remotely the same class as Apple that has a door to replace parts on it. We aren't talking about $350 throw away units right now. 

The second statement you made is true for the entire ultrabook lineup of all brands.


----------



## Shambles1980 (Feb 10, 2019)

il give you this. getting to the internals of a mac is easier than most laptops. But when your there then what??
wanna change the keyboard?? good luck with most moddels they were plastic riveterd in place. 
rams bad? well thats soldered on the board. 
need to get your data off the ssd because you cat peed on the mac and killed it? sorry soldered the ssd on the board on the newer modde;s. sure the data is there and you could have just removed the ssd and put it in your new mac. but nah solder that sucker in there..

there are a multitude of issues with mac books and you probably know them but dont want to admit it.
yeah you can get to the components easy enough. but when you have to physically drill and tap holes in to the case to replace a keyboard whats the point having easy access.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> If smoking caused the failure it absolutely would void the warranty. Thats a simple thing to prove. Fan bearings full of tar don't happen in a smoke free environment. Any subsequent failure caused by that wouldn't be covered.


If tar was permitted to make its way into the bearings then the fan was poorly designed.


----------



## Assimilator (Feb 10, 2019)

Apple next-level engineering: design a backlight protected by a fuse such that when a situation occurs that should trip the fuse, the backlight explodes but the fuse remains intact, thus necessitating a far more expensive repair than if the fuse was actually able to do its job.

THINK.
DIFFERENT.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Feb 10, 2019)

Totally said:


> *I haven't seen any of those godawful torx screws with peg in the middle on anything that isn't an Apple product.*


That's a Security Torx screw head.  Just buy a driver set to handle them.  I got one from Amazon for like $15 with many sizes.

More than Apple uses them.  Xbox 360 controllers use them.  I had one to get my controller apart and then gave it to my grandpa because he ran into them on one of his projects.  I think he just broke the peg off using a needle nose pliers and used a normal Torx bit to get it out.


----------



## Shambles1980 (Feb 10, 2019)

xbox 1 controllers have them too. you can just pop the nub off with a screwdriver most times.


----------



## XXL_AI (Feb 10, 2019)

cdawall said:


> Yea I actually own a business class Thinkpad with an extended warranty. I know exactly how the situation goes. It's not a cheap model.
> 
> I also worked as a level 3 tech at a major repair shop so y'all consistently arguing which machines are hard or easy to repair without ever touching them literally blows my mind. This whole I saw a picture on Google nonsense is a joke. Tell you what find me a working slimline precision or XPS 15 from 3-4 years ago. I can tell you they don't exist because every single one of them that was sold came back with a bad logic board.
> 
> ...


I'm a multilayer pcb designer with a years worth of experience of designing industrial iot devices with nvidia jetson processors, I can fix any notebook with my eyes closed.


----------



## notb (Feb 10, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> No, and there isn't even a MacBook Pro with those same specs considering how much it throttles.


You see - there's a kind of people that care about benchmarks and throttling and there's a kind that actually use computers.
I won't advocate for Apple and I don't use their products on daily basis. But I admit they are very comfortable to use. You don't have to tinker much - everything is mostly plug&play and does everything for you.
I expect people on this forum to not like this approach, looking at so many here oppose Windows 10 auto updating. But why the aggression? Seriously?

Just a simple example: Apple computers actually choose the resolution and scaling for you, when you plug in a monitor. Compared to what's available on Linux and Windows, it's the only approach that really works. And monitors with sub-optimal dot size have been around for a decade.
But yeah... I'm sure some people will hate this idea just because it takes away some control over the OS, right? 

And another example: eGPU. Few days ago some guy asked about an eGPU solution for his MacBook. I looked into it what Apple provides (in tandem with Blackmagic - a well known maker of solutions for video production). Honestly? Given all the problems eGPU cases make with Windows and Linux, IMO the Apple/Blackmagic solution is *by far* the best one. Again: plug&play, perfect compatibility (of course), good design, good built quality, everything over USB-C. This is how computers should look like in 2019.


bug said:


> Here's the thing, outside Apple nobody buys laptops by the mm or kg.


Seriously, how can you even say that? Do you even track the notebook market?
Mainstream allround notebooks went thin, with things like ASUS Vivobook/Zenbook, MacBook Air and Dell XPS dominating their price brackets.
We're even seeing some thinner gaming laptops lately - a sign that gamers are getting fed up with thick, plasticky boxes.


> You're seriously telling me two similarly configured laptops priced over $1k apart aren't comparable because one of them is like 5mm thicker? Well, here's something for your thought: the thicker laptop will do better job cooling that CPU and actually give you better performance.


Again: if CPU performance is all you care for, you won't get a MacBook anyway. And possibly none of the slim ultrabooks available.
These are not the kind of products you buy for raw oomph.


ensabrenoir said:


> ....apple greatest strength is its ecosystem which gets you locked in.  It starts with a cool phone and  then boom you gotta get everything to match.........Whooaaa Apple is the Garanimals of the tech world.   Just another case of  brand recognition  being more powerful/valuable than the reality of the product.


Yeah, if someone wants to be happy with his Apple products, he'll have to get used to the ecosystem. But it's not that bad in the end, because the ecosystem actually works.
I had an iPhone 5s for about 1.5 years. I didn't like many things: overheating, bad battery life in cold weather and so on. And since I only had the phone, it was a burden for things like file transfer.
I take a lot of photos using my phones and I didn't like the fact that I can't just copy them over network or USB cable. They have to be moved via their server (iCloud). But it really works. You just have to get over the initial mental block.
I really got used to the fact that I don't have to think about some things. I really liked the fact that photos appear on my PC (Windows) minutes after I get home.
I moved back to Android few months ago and I find myself not copying photos from the phone for days...


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Feb 10, 2019)

notb said:


> You see - there's a kind of people that care about benchmarks and throttling and there's a kind that actually use computers.
> I won't advocate for Apple and I don't use their products on daily basis. But I admit they are very comfortable to use. You don't have to tinker much - everything is mostly plug&play and does everything for you.
> I expect people on this forum to not like this approach, looking at so many here oppose Windows 10 auto updating. But why the aggression? Seriously?
> 
> ...


I agree with all of your comments. I was a diehard Windows Mobile guy for years—and I even gave Surface RT a chance. When those platforms died, I went Android. Funny enough, it wasn’t until we got an iPad Air on a good Black Friday deal that I saw how refined iOS was—the apps were so much better on iPad versus my Galaxy Note 10, and the 4:3 display made so much sense for portrait mode versus 16:9, which happened to make it way more comfortable to hold as well. I had used iPhones in the past, but it wasn’t until I saw the integration across devices that I got it. Get to today, and iPad is the real only tablet to really sell as a tablet in volume. It’s hard to put Surface  in that category, simply because the a wide selection of touch-driven programs in Windows just don’t exist. Incidentally, that iPad Air still works today after 4+ years, even with 2 cracks in the screen.


----------



## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

notb said:


> Seriously, how can you even say that? Do you even track the notebook market?
> Mainstream allround notebooks went thin, with things like ASUS Vivobook/Zenbook, MacBook Air and Dell XPS dominating their price brackets.
> We're even seeing some thinner gaming laptops lately - a sign that gamers are getting fed up with thick, plasticky boxes.



Well, I didn't mean that. But the thing is all laptops got thinner, size isn't a major concern when buying one. I got a new Acer laptop 2-3 years ago and it was like half the width of the one I bought 10 years ago. It's no Macbook for sure (in fact assembly was a little subpar - but I fixed that), but for $800 I got a Skylake CPU, 8 or 16 GB of RAM. And I spent an extra $200 to swap the HDD for a SSD. That thing runs everything I need to this day.

@Darmok N Jalad The iOS is so refined, the last time I tried I could figure out how to move the cursor in the middle of a word to fix a spelling error. And no back button, I can't wrap my head around that.



shadad said:


> now this.. free plastic cover wont fix lol


Sure it will. Put the cover over the screen - no more flicker!


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> @Darmok N Jalad The iOS is so refined, the last time I tried I could figure out how to move the cursor in the middle of a word to fix a spelling error. And no back button, I can't wrap my head around that.


Hold your finger on the screen and it will give you a cursor that you can put between letters. It magnifies where the cursor is so it's easier to position it correctly. You can do the same thing when you're dragging a selected area. Having owned an iPhone for several years, you learn how to do these things.


----------



## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Hold your finger on the screen and it will give you a cursor that you can put between letters. You can do the same thing when you're dragging a selected area. Having owned an iPhone for several years, you learn how to do these things.


True (and I was expecting the functionality was there). But my point is, for an OS that is supposed to be so refined, it sure has functionality that's hard to discover.


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> True (and I was expecting the functionality was there). But my point is, for an OS that is supposed to be so refined, it sure has functionality that's hard to discover.


Holding your finger on the screen doesn't seem very hard to discover to me considering that just tapping on the screen and hoping the position is correct seems like bad UX. It doesn't make sense for it to work that way (unless you're used to bad UX design.)

Edit: That's me though. I've used Macs and PCs. There really isn't much wrong with Apple and as @notb said, they typically just work. Some people *really* like it when their technology "just works". Not everyone has the inclination or the time to fiddle around with a laptop or something. Believe it or not, there is a market for that and it's rather large.


----------



## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Holding your finger on the screen doesn't seem very hard to discover to me considering that just tapping on the screen and hoping the position is correct seems like bad UX. It doesn't make sense for it to work that way (unless you're used to bad UX design.)


The keyboard I'm using on Android has actual arrow keys


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> The keyboard I'm using on Android has actual arrow keys


How many times do you have to tap the screen to get where you're going though? 

My point is, if you know how to use the device correctly, it's not an issue.


----------



## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

Can we just agree that there's a lot of things that Apple gets right and then on the flip side there's a lot of things that Apple gets wrong? We can say that about another company that's hated a lot around these parts, Microsoft. When Microsoft's stuff works, it's great! But when things go wrong, look out; you end up getting a thread like this but with the subject being Microsoft. The same can be said about Apple, hence this thread.


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> Can we just agree that there's a lot of things that Apple gets right and then on the flip side there's a lot of things that Apple gets wrong? We can say that about another company that's hated a lot around these parts, Microsoft. When Microsoft's stuff works, it's great! But when things go wrong, look out; you end up getting a thread like this but with the subject being Microsoft. The same can be said about Apple, hence this thread.


I think that this is the most rational comment I've read so far in this thread. Every product has its issues and every person has their preference in what they want out of their purchase. Simply put, Apple isn't for everyone, but they cater to a pretty large market.


----------



## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Every product has its issues and every person has their preference


Exactly. For instance, when it comes to the Mac I wouldn't even be caught dead using a Mac. I absolutely love the idea that I can trick out, personalize, and tweak my Windows-based desktop out until my heart's content. However when it comes to my phone I'll buy nothing but an iPhone. I like how iOS is such a smooth user experience and not only that but I can be confident that my device will receive proper software and security patches every single time regardless of what carrier I choose to use (I'm on T-Mobile US).


----------



## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> Can we just agree that there's a lot of things that Apple gets right and then on the flip side there's a lot of things that Apple gets wrong? We can say that about another company that's hated a lot around these parts, Microsoft. When Microsoft's stuff works, it's great! But when things go wrong, look out; you end up getting a thread like this but with the subject being Microsoft. The same can be said about Apple, hence this thread.


Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. In order to get Apple fans to admit Apple products are mostly just like any other (still above average), they'd also have to admit they're being overcharged. Which is this whole discussion started


----------



## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. In order to get Apple fans to admit Apple products are mostly just like any other (still above average), they'd also have to admit they're being overcharged. Which is this whole discussion started


Trust me, I know that Apple users are getting overcharged (including myself with the iPhone) but that's about where my Apple support ends. Like I said in a previous post, I wouldn't even be caught dead using a Mac. Overpriced and over-engineered garbage. Can we say the same thing about another company the rhymes with... nGreedia? Yeah... 

I know... I'm bad. 

I have absolutely no use for fanboys of any kind regardless of what company they play cheerleader for. I don't care if it's Apple, nVidia, AMD, Seagate, Western Digital, Intel, ASUS, Gigabyte, Samsung... I could go on and on. Fanboys of any camp generally suck. I'll admit though that for the longest time I was an Intel fanboy, Intel or nothing at all.


----------



## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. In order to get Apple fans to admit Apple products are mostly just like any other (still above average), they'd also have to admit they're being overcharged. Which is this whole discussion started


You're underestimating what people will pay for something that will typically just work though. People like us might be content customizing things and making things work exactly the way we want them, but that's not the majority of the market. Otherwise everyone would be like me and would run Linux.  For what you get with respect to hardware, I would agree that the price doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but you're not really just buying a laptop with no software on it, are you? You can't buy OS X, but you pay for it via the cost of the laptop. So, only until recently did I use a Mac laptop for work for almost a decade. I've almost never had an issue with the OS not doing what I wanted it to do. When it comes to a machine that's hands off, that's music to a lot of people's ears. For work, it's even better because when your machine isn't working, you're not being productive.

Don't get me wrong, Apple products are expensive, but from the Apple products I have used, my issues have been very minimal and they tend to just work. There is value in that to the general market.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> You're underestimating what people will pay for something that will typically just work though. People like us might be content customizing things and making things work exactly the way we want them, but that's not the majority of the market. Otherwise everyone would be like me and would run Linux.  For what you get with respect to hardware, I would agree that the price doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but you're not really just buying a laptop with no software on it, are you? You can't buy OS X, but you pay for it via the cost of the laptop. So, only until recently did I use a Mac laptop for work for almost a decade. I've almost never had an issue with the OS not doing what I wanted it to do. When it comes to a machine that's hands off, that's music to a lot of people's ears. For work, it's even better because when your machine isn't working, you're not being productive.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Apple products are expensive, but from the Apple products I have used, my issues have been very minimal and they tend to just work. There is value in that to the general market.


Exactly. I understand that not all people are going to want to get their hands dirty, scraped up, cut up, etc. when building their own PCs. Some people just want what's often called a turn-key solution; buy the product, take the product out of box, turn the product on and quite simply get to work. There are definitely merits to both kinds of thinking.

Like I said before, I love being able to tweak and build my own desktops but when it comes to my phone I quite simply need it to work when I need it to work. I need to know that my phone will function when it comes to crunch time like if I'm stuck somewhere out in the cold and for whatever reason I'm having car trouble. Yeah, I can change a flat tire if I need to but it would probably take some time to do so and when it's 19 degrees outside with a windchill I don't want to be frustrated while trying to get the car jack into place on the side of the road while contending with cars zipping by me.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

Well, I guess we all agree on that. Apple products do have their (sizeable) market segment.
The initial idea in this thread was that for the _hardware_ you can always get a better deal elsewhere, but that got quickly derailed.

Fwiw, my main beef with Apple is their tight grip on their ecosystem. It's what makes their products work so well, but from a consumer point of view it's also what takes away your right to tinker/repair. And when you control everything from software to hardware and keep your SKUs to a minimum, your costs are lower. Yet Apple's end user prices are anything but.


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## ssdpro (Feb 10, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Don't get me wrong, Apple products are expensive, but from the Apple products I have used, my issues have been very minimal and they tend to just work. There is value in that to the general market.


The question is why does Apple remain so valuable as a company (cheap labor) but not grow beyond minority market shares? This article is about a MBP that fits into the desktop/notebook segment and Apple maintains a paltry 9-12% market share depending on the study group and metric. In the mobile device segment Apple maintains 18-24% market share depending on the study group and metric. Most of Apple's mystique stems from marketing and business model as the usage experience hasn't allowed their market shares to grow.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> my main beef with Apple is their tight grip on their ecosystem


In some ways it's why, for instance, Apple iOS isn't nearly as bad as the infected app security nightmare that is Android. Not a day goes by when you don't hear about how some security researcher found dozens of apps in the Google Play Store that were infected with this or that kind of malware yet they were downloaded by millions. Google really needs to get a handle on this, they need to start vetting the apps better than they have been as of late.



bug said:


> but from a consumer point of view it's also what takes away your right to tinker/repair


I agree with you on that in some ways but to be honest how many of us would be able to do anything but swap out a part in our desktop systems? We're not going to break out the soldering station like that one guy with his YouTube channel. We're going to simply take out the offending part, ask for an RMA, ship it out, and await a new part.

As for the lack of repair-ability of Apple Mac systems it's a symptom of what people want from their systems namely they want them thin and light. Unfortunately to make them "thin and light" you have to trade something away for it, namely the ability to repair it since in order to make it thin and light you have to throw the idea of modular components out the window and make motherboards with everything built onboard. We can say the same thing about most Windows notebooks as well, you'll never be able to replace your mobile GPU in your notebook with a newer and faster one since it too is built onboard the motherboard. Yes, some notebook makers toyed with the idea of modular mobile GPUs but that idea was pretty much a flop since it too was proprietary as all hell.


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## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> Fwiw, my main beef with Apple is their tight grip on their ecosystem. It's what makes their products work so well, but from a consumer point of view it's also what takes away your right to tinker/repair. And when you control everything from software to hardware and keep your SKUs to a minimum, your costs are lower. Yet Apple's end user prices are anything but.


Unfortunately that's how you can make things "just work" without having weird issues unless you do things "the right way". Locking down the ecosystem gives their hardware predictable characteristics that they can build an OS around. It's also not necessarily cheaper to make everything proprietary because that means development is mostly all in-house. A locked down ecosystem is part of what makes Apple products appealing to their market. People who want hardware that just works aren't likely to want to tinker with it in terms of what's inside the machine.

Simply put, the type of people Apple is marketing towards isn't you.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> In some ways it's why, for instance, Apple iOS isn't nearly as bad as the infected app security nightmare that is Android. Not a day goes by when you don't hear about how some security researcher found dozens of apps in the Google Play Store that were infected with this or that kind of malware yet they were downloaded by millions. Google really needs to get a handle on this, they need to start vetting the apps better than they have been as of late.



Hear, yes. Experience, no. Never.
90%+ of the horror stories are about 3rd party app stores. I've been on Google's app store for years and never had a security issue with that. Once in a while a rogue app will slip in there, too, but Google will take care of it rather quickly.



Aquinus said:


> Unfortunately that's how you can make things "just work" without having weird issues unless you do things "the right way". Locking down the ecosystem gives their hardware predictable characteristics that they can build an OS around. It's also not necessarily cheaper to make everything proprietary because that means development is mostly all in-house. A locked down ecosystem is part of what makes Apple products appealing to their market. People who want hardware that just works aren't likely to want to tinker with it.


Well, when instead of targeting hundreds of CPUs and GPUs, you only hate to target a dozen or so, I'm pretty sure your development and QA costs are a fraction of everybody else's. Sure, having an in-house language to develop everything will add to the costs, but that's what the App Store is for, right?
Like @ssdpro pointed out above, Apple doesn't have a significant percent of any market they're in. But they still top the profit charts. If that's not due to higher margins than I don't know what it is.


Aquinus said:


> Simply put, the type of people Apple is marketing towards isn't you.


You got that right


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> Hear, yes. Experience, no. Never.
> 90%+ of the horror stories are about 3rd party app stores. I've been on Google's app store for years and never had a security issue with that.


Wait. What? The security researchers have found rogue apps not just in third-party app stores but in the Google Play Store itself as well.

https://thevpn.guru/more-adware-apps-google-play-store/
https://blog.trendmicro.com/trendla...hishing-websites-and-collects-their-pictures/
https://blog.trendmicro.com/trendla...ing-malware-use-motion-based-evasion-tactics/

All found in the Google Play Store itself.


bug said:


> Once in a while a rogue app will slip in there, too, but Google will take care of it rather quickly.


If you ask me, if their app vetting process was better then the app wouldn't have made it to the Play Store to begin with. Much of this stems from the fact that anybody and everybody can develop and submit apps to the Google Play Store whereas with the iOS App Store you need to purchase a developer license to submit apps. A person who simply wants to infect some users won't be willing it shell out the cost to buy a developer license for the iOS App Store, they're going to go the cheap route and plaster the Google Play Store with scam apps to do that since there's no cost to do so.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> If you ask me, if their app vetting process was better then the app wouldn't have made it to the Play Store to begin with. Much of this stems from the fact that anybody and everybody can develop and submit apps to the Google Play Store whereas with the iOS App Store you need to purchase a developer license to submit apps. A person who simply wants to infect some users won't be willing it shell out the cost to buy a developer license for the iOS App Store, they're going to go the cheap route and plaster the Google Play Store with scam apps to do that since there's no cost to do so.



I don't think you can publish on Google Store without paying. But you can develop for free, which is a big plus in my book.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

OK, I was _slightly_ wrong about my no cost requirement to publish apps to the Google Play Store. According to this Android Authority article there's a *one-time* fee of a measly $25. Apple charges $99 *per* year for the ability to publish to the iOS App Store. So if I were a scammer I'd choose the Google Play Store since I could, at least in theory, set up a couple of dummy accounts to publish apps under since its cheap to do so. If my account gets banned by Google due to publishing "bad apps" I can just go and create a new account, pay the measly $25, and watch Rome burn again.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> OK, I was _slightly_ wrong about my no cost requirement to publish apps to the Google Play Store. According to this Android Authority article there's a *one-time* fee of a measly $25. Apple charges $99 *per* year for the ability to publish to the iOS App Store. So if I were a scammer I'd choose the Google Play Store since I could, at least in theory, set up a couple of dummy accounts to publish apps under since its cheap to do so. If my account gets banned by Google due to publishing "bad apps" I can just go and create a new account, pay the measly $25, and watch Rome burn again.


I doubt a scammer has a problem ponying up $99/year. It's probably the scrutiny process that makes the difference here.
But imagine you were a student or a high school kid trying to learn programming. Between Google and Apple, where would you start?


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> But you can develop for free, which is a big plus in my book.


You can write apps for iOS for free all you want, Apple gives away XCode for free. You just need to have a developer license to publish to the iOS App Store. Hell, you can even write iOS apps with Microsoft Visual Studio using Xamarin, you just need a Mac to compile it and any old Mac can do that; even a cheap Mac Mini from a couple of years ago can do that. Using Xamarin you can take all your Microsoft .NET programming experience and use it to write iOS apps. Hell, one of my most used iOS apps (BitWarden) is written in .NET and compiled to be an iOS app.

Oh and Microsoft Visual Studio is given away for free too. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that writing Android apps is better and easier to do so in Microsoft Visual Studio than Google's own Android Studio which is an unstable pile of hot garbage.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> You can write apps for iOS for free all you want, Apple gives away XCode for free. You just need to have a developer license to publish to the iOS App Store. Hell, you can even write iOS apps with Microsoft Visual Studio using Xamarin, you just need a Mac to compile it and any old Mac can do that; even a cheap Mac Mini from a couple of years ago can do that. Using Xamarin you can take all your Microsoft .NET programming experience and use it to write iOS apps. Hell, one of my most used iOS apps (BitWarden) is written in .NET and compiled to be an iOS app.
> 
> Oh and Microsoft Visual Studio is given away for free too. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that writing Android apps is better and easier to do so in Microsoft Visual Studio than Google's own Android Studio which is an unstable pile of hot garbage.


So, at some point, you need to cough up the dough for a Mac


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> So, at some point, you need to cough up the dough for a Mac


True but again, any old cheap Mac Mini can do that which can be had for $799 or you can find older Mac Minis for a hell of a lot cheaper.

As for Microsoft Visual Studio you really have to hand it to Microsoft for that, they've made the best damn developer tool in the industry. You can make Mac apps, Windows apps, Android apps, iOS apps, even Linux apps (with Mono and .NET Core) and share code between them all. Pretty much nobody can touch the quality and abilities of Visual Studio, it's just that damn good. And to think you can get Visual Studio for free. Wow.


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## notb (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> Well, I didn't mean that. But the thing is all laptops got thinner, size isn't a major concern when buying one. I got a new Acer laptop 2-3 years ago and it was like half the width of the one I bought 10 years ago. It's no Macbook for sure (in fact assembly was a little subpar - but I fixed that), but for $800 I got a Skylake CPU, 8 or 16 GB of RAM. And I spent an extra $200 to swap the HDD for a SSD. That thing runs everything I need to this day.


Which model do you have?

I think it comes down to how you use your laptop. Or rather: how you live with it.
Laptops may be getting thinner in general, but they're still big and heavy. You feel them in your backpack or bag.

The whole point of making notebooks smaller was to get them to the size and weight that we find somehow familiar and neutral. Like a normal paper notebook. And we're getting close.
And for people that tolerate heavier luggage, there will always be a potential to get something larger and cheaper / more powerful.

I had a 2.5 kg notebook when I was studying. It took half of my backpack and was heavy, but OK for commuting between home and university.
But that's not always the case, right? Sometimes you go shopping after work. Sometimes you just go for a walk. And walking around with additional 2.5kg is definitely uncomfortable.

Currently I carry an HP EliteBook 840 (physically similar to the MacBook Pro). Just 1 kg and maybe 1cm of thickness less than what I had 10 years ago, but the difference is night and day.


bug said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. In order to get Apple fans to admit Apple products are mostly just like any other (still above average), they'd also have to admit they're being overcharged. Which is this whole discussion started


They don't. You don't look at prices as you should.
With Apple you pay a premium for their work. Their products are really easy to use. They do many things for you.
Apple competes with other manufacturers by making their products friendly and tinker-free.
Makers of Windows laptops don't compete by making their products friendly and tinker-free. They compete by finding the cheapest way to combine the same generic parts and make them run under the same OS.

Simple fact is: if you're 100% in Apple ecosystem and use Apple-certified accessories, it's very unlikely you'll ever have any compatibility issues. No tinkering, no asking on forums, no need to learn how something works. It may not be that important for tech-savvy people, but for everyone else Apple is actually very good value. You computer or phone just works - exactly like your car, your TV, your fridge. You just use it. You don't have to think how it works.


bug said:


> True (and I was expecting the functionality was there). But my point is, for an OS that is supposed to be so refined, it sure has functionality that's hard to discover.


Honestly, when I got my iPhone, it took me few days to find out how to do this kind of things.
It's a touch interface. You can only touch, hold, swipe or pinch. It's not that hard to discover how things work. And thanks to very strong Apple policy, all apps work more or less the same.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

notb said:


> And walking around with additional 2.5kg is definitely uncomfortable.


Come on man, that's just around five pounds (for those of us in the United States). That's not a lot at all.


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## Tom_ (Feb 10, 2019)

raptori said:


> Why would anyone buy a laptop for $4500 ?!!!  and the specs are nothing special.



Because they have money and you don't.


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## notb (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> Come on man, that's just around five pounds (for those of us in the United States). That's not a lot at all.


Actually 2.5 kg or 5 lbs is more or less the weight of recommended dumbbell for people getting into serious exercises. It's the weight that's supposed to get them tired after few minutes.
OK, you don't lift your notebook. But you carry it with you. Sometimes it's hot, sometimes you're in a suit, sometimes you're ill or just very tired. Sometimes you're shopping after work and you have 15kg of food on top of your normal stuff.

Sometimes the gravity is against you.
Just a simple test. Get to 4th floor with and without additional 2.5kg in your backpack. You'll notice the difference.

Light notebooks (...cloths, bags, gadgets, shoes) are easier to live with. No way around it.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

Five pounds is nothing to me, I've carried heavier stuff in my life. I've carried heavier and bigger notebooks in the past including so-called desktop replacement notebooks just because I wanted one for the on the go power.


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## Berfs1 (Feb 10, 2019)

Yea that’s what happened when you go custom everything because you want to be different.... what can I say? Apple is that person on a cruise ship that will jump off and swim the entire way!


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## Darmok N Jalad (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> The keyboard I'm using on Android has actual arrow keys



You can also hold 2 fingers on the keyboard in iOS and it basically turns into a trackpad and will allow you to control the cursor location. While some features require a bit of discoverability, once you get it, it becomes second nature.


ssdpro said:


> The question is why does Apple remain so valuable as a company (cheap labor) but not grow beyond minority market shares? This article is about a MBP that fits into the desktop/notebook segment and Apple maintains a paltry 9-12% market share depending on the study group and metric. In the mobile device segment Apple maintains 18-24% market share depending on the study group and metric. Most of Apple's mystique stems from marketing and business model as the usage experience hasn't allowed their market shares to grow.


Apple’s Mac market share is no riddle. Apple has no desire to sell budget Macs, and they pretty much never have. Instead, they sell to the higher end of the market. It means more profit per device, and the hardware chosen will be a good-performing experience. If you only have $350 to spend, Apple will not offer you a Mac, but they will point you to the iPad. Is it a desktop? No, but Apple makes the SOC and can ensure performance is good in all available circumstances—much like a game console favors consistency over superior graphics. Netbooks and cheap Android tablets and phones have not done Windows or Android any favors when it comes to reputation. Everyone in this thread knows that it’s not the OS’s fault that budget systems’ performance sucks, but talk to all the people who don’t know anything about hardware specs, and they will blame Windows or the OEM who made the device. Apple is aware of this perception. They know they aren’t for everyone, and they simply don’t care. They have a fraction of the market share of Android, but they make way more profit than any Android OEM, year in and year out. People can call Apple customers sheep all they want, but those sheep don’t care because Apple’s vertically integrated ecosystem does what they want without complications. Use iCloud, everything syncs from iPhone to iPad to MacOS—photos, documents, text messages, etc. I think people care less that the solution is the best, what they want is for it to work.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

notb said:


> Actually 2.5 kg or 5 lbs is more or less the weight of recommended dumbbell for people getting into serious exercises. It's the weight that's supposed to get them tired after few minutes.
> OK, you don't lift your notebook. But you carry it with you. Sometimes it's hot, sometimes you're in a suit, sometimes you're ill or just very tired. Sometimes you're shopping after work and you have 15kg of food on top of your normal stuff.
> 
> Sometimes the gravity is against you.
> ...


Let me throw a monkey wrench into your argument there: unless you carry your Macbook in your hand, you're also carrying a bag that adds to those numbers 



trparky said:


> True but again, any old cheap Mac Mini can do that which can be had for $799 or you can find older Mac Minis for a hell of a lot cheaper.


Yes, but you can always get a PC or laptop for less money 


trparky said:


> As for Microsoft Visual Studio you really have to hand it to Microsoft for that, they've made the best damn developer tool in the industry. You can make Mac apps, Windows apps, Android apps, iOS apps, even Linux apps (with Mono and .NET Core) and share code between them all. Pretty much nobody can touch the quality and abilities of Visual Studio, it's just that damn good. And to think you can get Visual Studio for free. Wow.


And I don't know about VS (haven't checked it out in over a decade), but only its community edition is free.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

bug said:


> And I don't know about VS (haven't checked it out in over a decade), but only its community edition is free.


So? Free is free! You can do damn near everything with the free version that you can do with the paid versions. It's not stripped down at all.


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## bug (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> So? Free is free! You can do damn near everything with the free version that you can do with the paid versions. It's not stripped down at all.


As i was saying, I haven't checked it out in a while. Usually community editions are lacking many important features, I'm glad to hear that's not the case here.


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## Aquinus (Feb 10, 2019)

trparky said:


> So? Free is free! You can do damn near everything with the free version that you can do with the paid versions. It's not stripped down at all.


VS Code is not Visual Studio and it's a very different editor. VS isn't written using Electron, VS Code is. Don't get me wrong, VS Code isn't bad, but it's definitely not a replacement for VS if you're doing .NET development. VS Code is a good option if you're doing stuff with TypeScript or if you're in Linux and are allergic to editors like Emacs and VIM... but @bug is right, only the community edition of VS is free, but VS Pro is definitely not.


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## ssdpro (Feb 10, 2019)

Tom_ said:


> Because they have money and you don't.


All the kids sitting in the coffee shop checking their facebook on a 4500 mac have credit card debt, not money.


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## FordGT90Concept (Feb 10, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> VS Code is not Visual Studio and it's a very different editor. VS isn't written using Electron, VS Code is. Don't get me wrong, VS Code isn't bad, but it's definitely not a replacement for VS if you're doing .NET development. VS Code is a good option if you're doing stuff with TypeScript or if you're in Linux and are allergic to editors like Emacs and VIM... but @bug is right, only the community edition of VS is free, but VS Pro is definitely not.


Yup.  Community Edition of Visual Studio is just for free/open source/learning.  If the code being created is for profit, they need to hand over the big bucks.


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## trparky (Feb 10, 2019)

Yeah the free Community Edition version does have that stipulation in the license agreement. This I understand.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 11, 2019)

Easy Rhino said:


> You really can't. It just sounds like complaining. Now if you can layout an engineering trace of the problem and explain why their mistake was so bad then I will listen. Tell me how you would have approached the problem from an engineering perspective and what steps would you take at this point to ensure the problem does not happen.



You saying this sounds just about as arrogant as others saying they should have designed it better. Until YOU have the answer, this comment has no place. If you can't design it properly, you shouldn't design it in the first place, how about that? If a product is released with faults like these, 'it just sounds like complaining' when people point it out. Yeah, us and all our first world problems, poor Apple. 

Honestly sometimes reading your comments is just perplexing and they are borderline flamebait more often than not. You're not adding anything of substance either but tell others to shut up unless they can. I mean... wth?!

Also... this



Easy Rhino said:


> _Most people don't understand_ and choose to hate on Apple



....is textbook 'Apple fanboy' rhetoric right here. You might want to go see a doctor for being that 'enlightened person who does understand Apple'.

Apple - a _multi billion dollar company that releases what, three different products per year and still can't get it right after a dozen iterations_. Such fantastic engineering!


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## notb (Feb 11, 2019)

bug said:


> Let me throw a monkey wrench into your argument there: unless you carry your Macbook in your hand, you're also carrying a bag that adds to those numbers


I think this is exactly the part where we don't understand each other very well. 

The whole point of light, slim notebooks is that *you don't need a special laptop bag* (or backpack). You can put it in whatever you normally use. Even if there's no laptop compartment/pocket, you can put it in the main one with other things. Ultrabooks are usually very well built, so you don't have to worry about damage. If you can't live with scratches, you just buy a light sleeve.
And with 8+ hours of battery life, you don't have to take the charger with you. 
13" ultrabooks (like MacBook Air or Asus Zenbook) are so small most women can easily carry them in a purse.

Back in the day it used to look differently. We used to buy special laptop bags with separate compartments for the laptop and charger. Not only were they heavy, but you usually ended up carrying 2 bags, which is just an idiotic idea.
And yeah, I assume this is still an issue for most owners of gaming laptops (bulky, bad plastic, a lot of bending, large vents, huge power bricks). That's exactly why people buy expensive ultrabooks with worse performance.


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## Aquinus (Feb 11, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> You saying this sounds just about as arrogant as others saying they should have designed it better. Until YOU have the answer, this comment has no place. If you can't design it properly, you shouldn't design it in the first place, how about that? If a product is released with faults like these, 'it just sounds like complaining' when people point it out. Yeah, us and all our first world problems, poor Apple.
> 
> Honestly sometimes reading your comments is just perplexing and they are borderline flamebait more often than not. You're not adding anything of substance either but tell others to shut up unless they can. I mean... wth?!


I don't agree with how @Easy Rhino described his question and statement, so lets reframe it. How many Apple laptops have you owned and for how long? I've used Apple laptops for most of my professional career until recently (not because I had an option, I do now which is why I have a laptop with Linux on it.) I even at one point was a system administrator that had to deal with these laptops for the organization and very few of them failed (considering how many that company had.) That doesn't mean that I like Apple products or that I'd even buy one for myself, but it does give me some insight into the quality and possible issues that Apple laptops have had in the last 10 years.

I suspect that like a lot of other people in this thread are like you. You're not an Apple person, which makes sense. I would say that most people here aren't looking for what an Apple product provides in a laptop. With that said though, if you've never owned an Apple laptop, you seem to have a lot of opinions about them and why they are bad. Such scathing remarks without owning the thing is like a person writing a review for hardware that they don't even have but heard things on the internet that validates their narrative.


notb said:


> And yeah, I assume this is still an issue for most owners of gaming laptops (bulky, bad plastic, a lot of bending, large vents, huge power bricks). That's exactly why people buy expensive ultrabooks with worse performance.


Hold your horses there, bub. I got a HP Spectre to replace a baseline model 15" MBP from several years ago. The HP Spectre is easily as fast if not faster than the MBP I used to have when it comes to CPU speed.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Feb 11, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> I don't agree with how @Easy Rhino described his question and statement, so lets reframe it. How many Apple laptops have you owned and for how long? I've used Apple laptops for most of my professional career until recently (not because I had an option, I do now which is why I have a laptop with Linux on it.) I even at one point was a system administrator that had to deal with these laptops for the organization and very few of them failed (considering how many that company had.) That doesn't mean that I like Apple products or that I'd even buy one for myself, but it does give me some insight into the quality and possible issues that Apple laptops have had in the last 10 years.
> 
> I suspect that like a lot of other people in this thread are like you. You're not an Apple person, which makes sense. I would say that most people here aren't looking for what an Apple product provides in a laptop. With that said though, if you've never owned an Apple laptop, you seem to have a lot of opinions about them and why they are bad. Such scathing remarks without owning the thing is like a person writing a review for hardware that they don't even have but heard things on the internet that validates their narrative.
> 
> Hold your horses there, bub. I got a HP Spectre to replace a baseline model 15" MBP from several years ago. The HP Spectre is easily as fast if not faster than the MBP I used to have when it comes to CPU speed.


I agree. I’ve owned my share of many tech brands, and I’ve had zero trouble with anything Apple. Their stuff seems to last a long time and feels solidly built. The only hardware brand I’ve sworn off is Microsoft. From Surface, Band, Xbox, and Lumia, I think my RMA rate with them is probably over 50%. Like you, I get why some folks don’t like Apple, but I think their quality issues get overblown. Our current way of communicating brand quality is very flawed. A few people talk about a bad experience and then it’s hyperbole city. And let’s face it, any time Apple is in the crosshairs, it’s multiple pages of comments and click-gold for the tech sites. No other brand draws a crowd like Apple, good or bad.


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## XXL_AI (Feb 11, 2019)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> I agree. I’ve owned my share of many tech brands, and I’ve had zero trouble with anything Apple. Their stuff seems to last a long time and feels solidly built. The only hardware brand I’ve sworn off is Microsoft. From Surface, Band, Xbox, and Lumia, I think my RMA rate with them is probably over 50%. Like you, I get why some folks don’t like Apple, but I think their quality issues get overblown. Our current way of communicating brand quality is very flawed. A few people talk about a bad experience and then it’s hyperbole city. And let’s face it, any time Apple is in the crosshairs, it’s multiple pages of comments and click-gold for the tech sites. No other brand draws a crowd like Apple, good or bad.



You are missing the point here, apple creates devices for daily use in office or white collar environment. if you use an apple computer in an air conditioned room with a riser stand, it will probably last longer but, most of the notebook users and programmers using their hardware literally everywhere, apple can't stand to that punishment, their hardware is so fragile, that you can break any apple computer at the field, robotics competition in its 1st day, maybe in the 1st hour. the reason why we use Thinkpad's or Precisions's are we need reliability across the workspace, not just at the office, we must be able to get our gear, go to the field, use there all day long, charge with 3rd party power supply, left at direct sun, and get back to the office for debugging etc. 

Surface sucks, I don't seek neither intelligence nor knowledge about hardware or software on the people who buys them, its better to get thinkpad tablet and use it. Lumia phones WERE great, they had tons of features years before android or ios had (scanning documents, hyperlapse my favorites). Xbox 360 (after they fixed the RROD) is the most stable hardware I've ever used. I have own one from 2008 and it still works with original controllers, I just replace batteries and hit play, that's it (although, the time of HALO is passed and I don't use it anymore like I used to, but running for 10 years? I haven't seen any apple hardware last that long, even in a household environment.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Feb 11, 2019)

XXL_AI said:


> You are missing the point here, apple creates devices for daily use in office or white collar environment. if you use an apple computer in an air conditioned room with a riser stand, it will probably last longer but, most of the notebook users and programmers using their hardware literally everywhere, apple can't stand to that punishment, their hardware is so fragile, that you can break any apple computer at the field, robotics competition in its 1st day, maybe in the 1st hour. the reason why we use Thinkpad's or Precisions's are we need reliability across the workspace, not just at the office, we must be able to get our gear, go to the field, use there all day long, charge with 3rd party power supply, left at direct sun, and get back to the office for debugging etc.
> 
> Surface sucks, I don't seek neither intelligence nor knowledge about hardware or software on the people who buys them, its better to get thinkpad tablet and use it. Lumia phones WERE great, they had tons of features years before android or ios had (scanning documents, hyperlapse my favorites). Xbox 360 (after they fixed the RROD) is the most stable hardware I've ever used. I have own one from 2008 and it still works with original controllers, I just replace batteries and hit play, that's it (although, the time of HALO is passed and I don't use it anymore like I used to, but running for 10 years? I haven't seen any apple hardware last that long, even in a household environment.


I just sold a 2009 Mac Pro last year. Chassis was beat up, but that machine still held up well today with the fastest available Xeons installed along with a modern GPU and SSD. Still, I won’t deny that in your particular use cases a Mac isn’t going to hold up. I can only tell you that the Apple stuff I have owned has survived my usage just fine for years. I do tend to think Apple chases thin too hard, so I have not purchased a MBP, but I love my 5K iMac. As for MS, no argument on Nokia Lumias. I loved every one of them I owned, from the 521, 925, 1020 to 1520. The MS-made 950 with W10M made me sad though. My 360 E is still going strong, but my past XboxOne hardware experiences have been less than stellar, from disc read errors to controller and accessory failures. It’s a shame, cause I prefer the XboxOne controller, but when I built my gaming HTPC, I went with a DS4 controller.


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## Shambles1980 (Feb 11, 2019)

Tough Book FTW!
(yes this is a low quality post)


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## Totally (Feb 12, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That's a Security Torx screw head.  Just buy a driver set to handle them.  I got one from Amazon for like $15 with many sizes.
> 
> More than Apple uses them.  Xbox 360 controllers use them.  I had one to get my controller apart and then gave it to my grandpa because he ran into them on one of his projects.  I think he just broke the peg off using a needle nose pliers and used a normal Torx bit to get it out.


I know, I thought about getting a set but I carry enough around and I just drill out and use a normal torx bit


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## MiltonQ (Mar 12, 2019)

I have the same problem. Seems like if the Macbook has been sleeping for much longer periods of time I will get static-like white, horizontal lines or (once) colored blocks on the lower half of the screen. Most of the time the screen blinks like crazy. If I shut the lid and open it back up, it sometimes goes away. Other times I have to restart. It's a pain in the ass and I wish Apple would just cop to it already.


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## evan.bovie (Jul 30, 2019)

My friend and I are seeing this issue on our 2019 MacBook Pros with Vega 20 GPUs while connected to an external display via a USB-C to HDMI adapter. Very similar to this: 



http://imgur.com/a/NXyXcKr

 and https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-i7-32gb-1tb-vega-20-screen-flicker.2156679/


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## Assimilator (Jul 30, 2019)

evan.bovie said:


> My friend and I are seeing this issue on our 2019 MacBook Pros with Vega 20 GPUs while connected to an external display via a USB-C to HDMI adapter. Very similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the level of quality you get for shelling out the big bucks. Please, vote with your wallet - return that and buy something that isn't ridiculously overpriced and actually works correctly.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 31, 2019)

Three days old...take it back to Apple.
I see the link is necro'd (much like this thread).

They disabled hardware acceleration in Chrome browser.  Have you tried that?


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## karolina.lea (Oct 23, 2019)

I have problem like that. Fight with Apple in last 4 months. They sending me new advice like: update system, we checked and all is cool etc. After many contacts and diagnistics... today they told me that problem is because of Mojave and I have to install Catalina.
It’s really help???
One sometimes two second, lines in diffrent part of screen..  Few times per minute sometimes...
I don’t know what to do... 




Please help ! I have that problem ! I have many movies also ...
The mac tends to show severe screen flickering and lines crossing through the picture....


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## FordGT90Concept (Oct 23, 2019)

That definitely isn't software.  Something is wrong with the computer hardware wise.  That kind of regular pattern may be indicative of something wrong with the GPU.


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## karolina.lea (Oct 23, 2019)

I think like that also... What can I do with that? I have quarantee to the end of october. Problem is still and they don’t do anything...
Tommorow I will install Catalina and wait for results...
What you suggest to do? what write/say to them??!!


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## hat (Oct 23, 2019)

Sounds like they're trying to run out the warranty. Demand they replace it ASAP.


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## trparky (Oct 23, 2019)

And if you still don't get a fix that's satisfactory to you, email Tim Cook himself at tcook@apple.com. Explain to him the situation with as many details as to what's happening and what support has told you along with a good way to contact you (include a phone number). Some users have said that things have been fast-tracked big time after emailing him.


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## karolina.lea (Oct 24, 2019)

Thank you so so much !!!


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