# Thanks to Windows 11, Scalpers Buy Out Add-on TPM 2.0 Modules



## btarunr (Jun 25, 2021)

Most modern PC platforms include an fTPM (firmware trusted platform module) of some form. Those that don't, have a TPM 2.0 compatible header on the motherboards. Microsoft's requirement of a hardware TPM for Windows 11 has scalpers go after add-on TPMs, which are typically priced around $20, but now marked up to $100, according to price-tracking by Shen Ye, a senior HTC VIVE exec, who has been tracking prices of add-on TPMs on Twitter. 

Scalpers possibly anticipate a rush of ill-informed buyers out for add-on TPMs, who haven't spent 5 minutes digging through their UEFI setup programs for the fTPM toggle. Below is a screenshot of a Ryzen 7 2700X-based machine, paired with an AMD B450 chipset motherboard (a platform from 2018), with its fTPM toggle turned on. The PC now meets Windows 11 system requirements. Windows 11 uses hardware TPMs for secure storage of credentials. "Microsoft, can you not impose a TPM requirement during a silicon shortage? Especially considering most desktop motherboards support TPM only as a purchasable accessory," Shen Ye tweeted.



 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Space Lynx (Jun 25, 2021)

will be going to Linux anyway now, so scalpers and M$ can eat it.  damn, it feels good to be free once and for all.  Linux to the moon!


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## XiGMAKiD (Jun 25, 2021)

Another nail to my Windows 11 upgrade coffin


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## zlobby (Jun 25, 2021)

Laughs in built-in TPM (and not fTPM by AMD).



lynx29 said:


> will be going to Linux anyway now, so scalpers and M$ can eat it.  damn, it feels good to be free once and for all.  Linux to the moon!


Torvaldcoin? Hodl!


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## HisDivineOrder (Jun 25, 2021)

The reason I know Microsoft will walk this back for non-business users is because I ask myself the question, "Do I need Windows 11 more than Microsoft needs me to want it?" And the answer is no. I remember how desperate they were to get users to upgrade from Windows 7 and 8 to 10. They gave it away. They begged. They pleaded.

I don't think Windows 11 is going to have that TPM requirement by the end, not for consumers. Maybe for business versions where it makes more sense. I half-expect them to remove the requirement when users do an upgrade from an earlier version of Windows to 11.


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## Paganstomp (Jun 25, 2021)

*MSI B450-A Pro MAX motherboard. Passed.*


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## ironwolf (Jun 25, 2021)

Yup, checked the net last night for a TPM module for an ASRock H97 Performance board with a i7-4790K on it.  $40 from 3rd party on Newegg was cheapest I could find from a quick look.  Nuts!


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## BorisDG (Jun 25, 2021)

Humans are such a nasty thing.


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## TheOne (Jun 25, 2021)

You know on the bright side if you don't properly enable TPM 2.0 in BIOS you probably wont be "forced" to upgrade to Windows 11.


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## Makaveli (Jun 25, 2021)

ironwolf said:


> Yup, checked the net last night for a TPM module for an ASRock H97 Performance board with a i7-4790K on it.  $40 from 3rd party on Newegg was cheapest I could find from a quick look.  Nuts!


i'm curious to see how this will work for older motherboards that you can buy the TPM and add it. Because even with doing that Haswell doesn't meet the cpu requirements for windows 11.

Intel 8th gen and up.


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## trparky (Jun 25, 2021)

Are you f**kin' kidding me? Seriously, these scalpers need to burn in hell already.

Thankfully, I don't need a TPM chip; it's built into my processor.


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## opteron (Jun 25, 2021)

BorisDG said:


> Humans are such a nasty thing.



Greedy Scalpers are the bane of humanity...


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 25, 2021)

TheOne said:


> You know on the bright side if you don't properly enable TPM 2.0 in BIOS you probably wont be "forced" to upgrade to Windows 11.


As if, they'll likely auto update at some point, force wiping your shit, fail to put 11 on then fail a rollback.
BSD no drive found.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 25, 2021)

ironwolf said:


> Yup, checked the net last night for a TPM module for an ASRock H97 Performance board with a i7-4790K on it.  $40 from 3rd party on Newegg was cheapest I could find from a quick look.  Nuts!


Doesn't matter, as you apparently need an 8th gen Intel CPU at the very minimum as well...

The really amusing part here is that a Celeron (read Atom) N4000 is supported...








						Windows processor requirements Windows 11 supported Intel processors
					

This specification details the Intel processors that can be used with Windows 11 customer systems that include Windows products, including custom images.



					docs.microsoft.com
				



It would seem no non Zen architecture AMD CPUs are supported.








						Windows processor requirements Windows 11 supported AMD processors
					

This specification details the AMD processors that can be used with Windows 11 customer systems that include Windows products, including custom images.



					docs.microsoft.com


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## Zubasa (Jun 25, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> Doesn't matter, as you apparently need an 8th gen Intel CPU at the very minimum as well...
> 
> The really amusing part here is that a Celeron (read Atom) N4000 is supported...
> 
> ...


FYI there are no Zen+ APUs, all of the 2000 and 3000 series APUs are 14nm Zen1 Raven Ridge.
So yeah M$ just went and set some arbitrary cut off date.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 25, 2021)

Zubasa said:


> FYI there are no Zen+ APUs, all of the 2000 and 3000 series APUs are 14nm Zen1 Raven Ridge.
> So yeah M$ just went and set some arbitrary cut off date.


Sorry? I think you misunderstood my point. I was talking about anything older than Zen architecture processors from AMD, be that a CPU or APU or whatever they call them.


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## Metroid (Jun 25, 2021)

It seems my b450 gaming plus has also tpm, so looks like I will be able to upgrade to windows 11. I wonder how beneficial windows 11 will be, I guess right now, I'm only interested in direcstorage, loading times is important to me.


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## trsttte (Jun 25, 2021)

this is hilarious 

TPM modules are not hard to manufacture and their scarcity is dictated mostly by their uselessness so these scalpers will most likely only help retailers clear out old junk. specially when microsoft walks this back as they surely will

I honestly find this super amusing


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## Nash (Jun 25, 2021)

Haha, looking at you scalper should have gone artisan 5g Fighters Plus.  

Asus TPM on hand.


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## Anoniem (Jun 25, 2021)

People will figure out something to crack it, it's Windows  But damn, people were on the ball right after the announcement, A-holes. Imagine people walking into a store to get their PC updated and being told to pay another 50-150 besides the labour, that really sucks. Oh, and great eco friendly move from Microsoft now that I think of it. Wouldn't surprise me if people just bought a new laptop because their old one wasn't supported. Most older laptops can run Windows 10 just fine (2nd gen Intel and above, first gen Ryzen and above) provided that they have an SSD. I have no doubt that those machines can run Windows 11 just fine too. Thanks Microsoft! /s


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## Octopuss (Jun 25, 2021)

What does the TPM thing do anyway? I have never ever heard it mentioned as being useful for anything.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 25, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> i'm curious to see how this will work for older motherboards that you can buy the TPM and add it. Because even with doing that Haswell doesn't meet the cpu requirements for windows 11.
> 
> Intel 8th gen and up.





TheLostSwede said:


> Doesn't matter, as you apparently need an 8th gen Intel CPU at the very minimum as well...
> 
> The really amusing part here is that a Celeron (read Atom) N4000 is supported...
> 
> ...



It's not a hard requirement that you have the CPUs listed:



It'll still let you install, but it'll warn you of the risks (e.g. not actively supported) beforehand. Doesn't seem like much of a problem, the older CPUs (even Ryzen 1000 to an extent) never needed the level of intricate firmware/scheduler/hardware CPPC handshaking that goes on in Ryzen 3000 and 5000 these days.

However, the Secure Boot flag (not Secure Boot being enabled itself) is a hard requirement, so IIRC early pre-Secure Boot UEFI platforms like Sandy Bridge probably won't work without modding the installer. And obviously non-UEFI capable systems, but that's not new.


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## Zubasa (Jun 25, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry? I think you misunderstood my point. I was talking about anything older than Zen architecture processors from AMD, be that a CPU or APU or whatever they call them.


https://allthings.how/how-to-install-windows-11-on-legacy-bios-without-secure-boot-or-tpm-2-0/
Anyway, people have already managed to bypass whatever BS M$ tried to pull.


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## Frick (Jun 25, 2021)

Just gonna go ahead and quote myself:



> There are new minimum hardware requirements for Windows 11. In order to run Windows 11, devices must meet the following specifications. Devices that do not meet the hard floor cannot be upgraded to Windows 11, and devices that meet the soft floor will receive a notification that upgrade is not advised.
> 
> *Hard Floor:*
> 
> ...











						Compatibility for Windows 11- Compatibility Cookbook
					

Learn how to enable your apps are compatible for Windows 11



					docs.microsoft.com


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## TheDeeGee (Jun 25, 2021)

Well the TPM requirement was downgraded to 1.2 already.

Sooner or later it won't be needed at all.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 25, 2021)

Hillarious:
Microsoft asking for TPM 2.0 and then backtracking to 1.2  but in off channels and keeping the confusion up
People scalping the modules
Calling W11 to a update to W10 and calling it a day

What a show this is going to be


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## Makaveli (Jun 25, 2021)

TheDeeGee said:


> Well the TPM requirement was downgraded to 1.2 already.
> 
> Sooner or later it won't be needed at all.


Where was that officially posted?


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## erocker (Jun 25, 2021)

These scalpers are just wannabe future pharma CEO's.


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## Mac the Geek (Jun 25, 2021)

Octopuss said:


> What does the TPM thing do anyway? I have never ever heard it mentioned as being useful for anything.



It's an encryption module, whose function is to protect your data.  Works hand-in-hand with stuff like BitLocker to encrypt your hard drive, so that if your drive is stolen, the thief can't read your tax returns and passwords.


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## Deleted member 197223 (Jun 25, 2021)

Nobody really wants to support legacy hardware. But then I remember that white/blacklists where yeeted from the linux kernel because muh racism. Same with everywhere else i.e github.


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## Nash (Jun 25, 2021)

Anoniem said:


> People will figure out something to crack it, it's Windows  But damn, people were on the ball right after the announcement, A-holes. Imagine people walking into a store to get their PC updated and being told to pay another 50-150 besides the labour, that really sucks. Oh, and great eco friendly move from Microsoft now that I think of it. Wouldn't surprise me if people just bought a new laptop because their old one wasn't supported. Most older laptops can run Windows 10 just fine (2nd gen Intel and above, first gen Ryzen and above) provided that they have an SSD. I have no doubt that those machines can run Windows 11 just fine too. Thanks Microsoft! /s




Labor?

Seating one of these on a motherboard qualifies as _labor_?
(downsized pic)


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## Easy Rhino (Jun 25, 2021)

I have a 7th gen intel CPU so my PC  is not compatible but I run Linux anyway. Feels good to be free. Windows 11 will probably upload all of your computing history to the NSA. Just saying.


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## phanbuey (Jun 25, 2021)

Easy Rhino said:


> I have a 7th gen intel CPU so my PC  is not compatible but I run Linux anyway. Feels good to be free. Windows 11 will probably upload all of your computing history to the NSA. Just saying.



Your ISP and Cellphone already do it - M$ can't be left behind.

Also M$ will backtrack -- they're giving away the OS for marketshare, would make no sense to make a barrier to entry like this and stick to it.  They need as much data as they can sell get.


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## defaultluser (Jun 25, 2021)

My Sklake quad-core sytem with tpm 1.2 plus secure boot enabledin the bios, the tool still says no go.

This is a CLUNKY REQUIREMENT FOR CONSUMER DEVICES  (REALLY, WHO RUNS BITLOCKER ON HOME DEVICES?)

Thy can just change it for Enterprise, and nobody would be bitching about the issues this will bring,

The worst part about the TPM spec: its motherboard-specific (so theres no no healthy market of third-party TPM  modules available to handle this spike)


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## TheDeeGee (Jun 25, 2021)

Easy Rhino said:


> I have a 7th gen intel CPU so my PC  is not compatible but I run Linux anyway. Feels good to be free. Windows 11 will probably upload all of your computing history to the NSA. Just saying.


But you're using the Internet?


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 25, 2021)

I see ms facing antitrust suit again


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## Makaveli (Jun 25, 2021)

TheDeeGee said:


> But you're using the Internet?



lol let him believe he is safe on his linux machine.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 25, 2021)

trparky said:


> Are you f**kin' kidding me? Seriously, these scalpers need to burn in hell already.


Right there with you.


trparky said:


> Thankfully, I don't need a TPM chip; it's built into my processor.


Wait, on chip? Are they doing that now? Last time I checked TPM was a motherboard bound thing...


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## Makaveli (Jun 25, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wait, on chip? Are they doing that now? Last time I checked TPM was a motherboard bound thing...



Last I heard this was true, on the AMD side its built into AGESA.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jun 25, 2021)

trparky said:


> Are you f**kin' kidding me? Seriously, these scalpers need to burn in hell already.
> 
> Thankfully, I don't need a TPM chip; it's built into my processor.



It still doesn't work. I just tried the compatibility tool on my 8700k and with both PTT and dTPM enabled in BIOS neither option passed. So don't be too thankful.


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## Nash (Jun 25, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> It still doesn't work. I just tried the compatibility tool on my 8700k and with both PTT and dTPM enabled in BIOS neither option passed. So don't be too thankful.



Who made the module? I just got an Asus brand for an Asus board with an 8700K. Asus built two TPM's only one works with a Z390. Not meaning version levels, there are two distinct builds of V.2


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jun 25, 2021)

Nash said:


> Who made the module? I just got an Asus brand for an Asus board with an 8700K. Asus built two TPM's only one works with a Z390. Not meaning version levels, there are two distinct builds of V.2



All my board has is a slot for a module. the options in bios enable that slot, but needs to be populated. I have an MSI z370 board.


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## Anoniem (Jun 25, 2021)

Nash said:


> Labor?
> 
> Seating one of these on a motherboard qualifies as _labor_?
> 
> View attachment 205419


Nope, I mean getting the machine upgraded from Windows 10 to Windows 11 and making a backup of the original install. And yeah, I know it's labor  Had a long day.


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## AAF Optimus (Jun 25, 2021)

*Gentlemen, I learned today of a Library (DLL) capable of removing TPM 2.0/UEFI/SecureBoot requirements from Windows 11. Please let me know here if you also know anything about it. I'll look into the information.*


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## Easy Rhino (Jun 25, 2021)

TheDeeGee said:


> But you're using the Internet?


 Using a VPN that routes through two other countries.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 25, 2021)

Apparently you can just delete "appraiserres.dll" from your installation source and it will get rid of the check.


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## AAF Optimus (Jun 25, 2021)

Alan Finotty said:


> *Gentlemen, I learned today of a Library (DLL) capable of removing TPM 2.0/UEFI/SecureBoot requirements from Windows 11. Please let me know here if you also know anything about it. I'll look into the information.*


*Gentlemen, I think it worked for me.*
*Before:*





*Later:



*



Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Apparently you can just delete "appraiserres.dll" from your installation source and it will get rid of the check.


Or replace it with an identical one, but from an earlier version of Windows 10.


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## Nash (Jun 25, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> All my board has is a slot for a module. the options in bios enable that slot, but needs to be populated. I have an MSI z370 board.



I don't know about MSI. I saw a couple of comments from people saying 'theirs' failed so they retried, retried and it finally worked, maybe try again?



lexluthermiester said:


> Right there with you.
> 
> Wait, on chip? Are they doing that now? Last time I checked TPM was a motherboard bound thing...



AMD built it in. The plugin module isn't in retail packages, they get another $20 for a separate box. Now MS is selling it for them for $39.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 25, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> Last I heard this was true, on the AMD side its built into AGESA.


Fair enough, did not know that.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 25, 2021)

I switched to Linux Mint latest beta about an hour ago... loving every damn second of it.  Seriously no need for Windows anymore, unless you only care about AAA latest games.









						I just switched to Linux Mint (latest beta release) I AM FREAKING IN LOVE!!! TAKE CARE WINDOWS 10 and 11 LMAO
					

So first impressions so far today... it's smooth!!! So smooth!  It's very user friendly... I have already installed Steam with two clicks, updated all my drivers from the welcome window that pops up on first install, installed proprietary Nvidia driver, got gsync working.  Steam has an awesome...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Makaveli (Jun 25, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I switched to Linux Mint latest beta about an hour ago... loving every damn second of it.  Seriously no need for Windows anymore, unless you only care about AAA latest games.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um some of us work on our machines and need windows?

So the last part about only if you care about AAA latest games not 100% accurate.


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## Camm (Jun 25, 2021)

People are dumb fucks, by the time of launch, TPM 1.2 will work for Windows 11, allowing anyone from Haswell up to run Windows 11.

Scalpers scalped themselves.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 25, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> Um some of us work on our machines and need windows?
> 
> So the last part about only if you care about AAA latest games not 100% accurate.



that's true. and i just said that a moment ago in the thread I made!  well done! congrats!


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 25, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> Um some of us work on our machines and need windows?
> 
> So the last part about only if you care about AAA latest games not 100% accurate.


Yup, pretty much this. Linux is good, but can't do everything Windows can.

Instead of rambling on about Linux(off-topic) let us all instead give microsoft the shaft by breaking/cracking/circumventing all of their bullshit limitations and intrusions. 
To be clear, I'm NOT promoting piracy. *Go buy a damn CDKey.* Then rip Windows 11 a few new ones and teach microsoft who's boss!(that would be us, the users)
HACK microsoft's PLANET!!





(While I'm being funny, I'm also totally serious. Hack, crack and rip all the microsoft stuffs. As long as you own it, you have the right to modify it. Legally protected right.)


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## yotano211 (Jun 25, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> will be going to Linux anyway now, so scalpers and M$ can eat it.  damn, it feels good to be free once and for all.  Linux to the moon!


I'll stay on windows 10 for at least 1.5yrs after win 11 is released. I'll wait until they iron out all the defects of windows 11. I wish I can still go back to win 7.


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## trparky (Jun 25, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> It still doesn't work. I just tried the compatibility tool on my 8700k and with both PTT and dTPM enabled in BIOS neither option passed. So don't be too thankful.


All I need was to flip that setting in my Gigabyte motherboard's UEFI and that was I needed to do to make that tool say that my system is supported.


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## RedBear (Jun 25, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> It still doesn't work. I just tried the compatibility tool on my 8700k and with both PTT and dTPM enabled in BIOS neither option passed. So don't be too thankful.


Did you disable CSM (and are you using a GPT partition)? I believe Windows 11 needs a pure UEFI environment. My 2600x passes the test alright after enabling fTPM in the bios.


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## InVasMani (Jun 25, 2021)

Windows 11 seems like Microsoft is going full Windows S Mode with the standard affair of them making a 1 or 2 changes they know people will actually want that should've and could've probably been done a decade or two ago if they weren't so busy doing questionable stuff instead like forcing CandyCrush, OneDrive, Edge, and Bing malware on systems.

I had to sign up for a Microsoft account on a Windows S Mode laptop just to get out of Windows S Mode to install Mozilla Firefox awhile back on a laptop and it was infuriating quite frankly it involved a bunch of hassle and was completely unnecessary and frankly intrusive as hell and should be made illegal to force that on customers. It's probably less involved actually to install Linux start to finish than removing Windows S Mode in some instances. It would depend a bit on the Linux variant and how hands off the installation process, but it goes to show you how bad Windows S Mode is.

All in order for Microsoft to force you into only using it's Windows store approved APPS. I don't think even something like Foobar music player works in Windows S Mode. I mean Mozilla Firefox doesn't so I can't imagine what programs work on Windows S Mode that aren't Microsoft products, but I imagine their own programs just work seamlessly which is rather anti competitive behavior I'd argue. It's of course under the guise of security. Nothing makes me feel more secure about my personal data than being forced to give it away to Microsoft to uninstall it's Window S Mode malware/ransomware.


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## Nash (Jun 25, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> Windows 11 seems like Microsoft is going full Windows S Mode with the standard affair of them making a 1 or 2 changes they know people will actually want that should've and could've probably been done a decade or two ago if they weren't so busy doing questionable stuff instead like forcing CandyCrush, OneDrive, Edge, and Bing malware on systems.
> 
> I had to sign up for a Microsoft account on a Windows S Mode laptop just to get out of Windows S Mode to install Mozilla Firefox awhile back on a laptop and it was infuriating quite frankly it involved a bunch of hassle and was completely unnecessary and frankly intrusive as hell and should be made illegal to force that on customers. It's probably less involved actually to install Linux start to finish than removing Windows S Mode in some instances. It would depend a bit on the Linux variant and how hands off the installation process, but it goes to show you how bad Windows S Mode is.
> 
> All in order for Microsoft to force you into only using it's Windows store approved APPS. I don't think even something like Foobar music player works in Windows S Mode. I mean Mozilla Firefox doesn't so I can't imagine what programs work on Windows S Mode that aren't Microsoft products, but I imagine their own programs just work seamlessly which is rather anti competitive behavior I'd argue. It's of course under the guise of security. Nothing makes me feel more secure about my personal data than being forced to give it away to Microsoft to uninstall it's Window S Mode malware/ransomware.



It's literally two steps to change from Windows S. That OS was never intended to be a general purpose consumer OS for powerful PC's. It's a purposefully locked down, secure, efficient OS for lower end laptops (aka chromebooks) in large enterprises, schools. Microsoft can't guarantee the security or performance for users who are downloading crapware and files from all over the net.


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## windwhirl (Jun 26, 2021)

Nash said:


> Haha, looking at you scalper should have gone artisan 5g Fighters Plus.
> 
> Asus TPM on hand.
> 
> ...


Why does that look like something someone would use to smoke their way to death?



phanbuey said:


> They need as much data as they can sell get.


If we're gonna go with that, Windows 10 already does it, and they also had those updates for Windows 7 with telemetry included.


lexluthermiester said:


> Wait, on chip? Are they doing that now? Last time I checked TPM was a motherboard bound thing...


Apparently there's a TPM implementation in AMD's Platform Security Processor (PSP), and Intel also has their own implementation of the same idea.


lexluthermiester said:


> Yup, pretty much this. Linux is good, but can't do everything Windows can.
> 
> Instead of rambling on about Linux(off-topic) let us all instead give microsoft the shaft by breaking/cracking/circumventing all of their bullshit limitations and intrusions.
> To be clear, I'm NOT promoting piracy. *Go buy a damn CDKey.* Then rip Windows 11 a few new ones and teach microsoft who's boss!(that would be us, the users)
> ...


NGL, it's weird reading that with Agent Smith's voice lol


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## m2geek (Jun 26, 2021)

eidairaman1 said:


> I see ms facing antitrust suit again


For making some security mandatory? Doubt it.


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## Caring1 (Jun 26, 2021)

erocker said:


> These scalpers are just wannabe future pharma CEO's.


Or stock market traders.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 26, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> will be going to Linux anyway now, so scalpers and M$ can eat it. damn, it feels good to be free once and for all. Linux to the moon!


Nah ill be sticking to windows 
my computers perfectly capable so i see no reason not to it is the better os for gaming after all


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## Frank_100 (Jun 26, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> As if, they'll likely auto update at some point, force wiping your shit, fail to put 11 on then fail a rollback.
> BSD no drive found.


Clonezilla.



TheLostSwede said:


> Doesn't matter, as you apparently need an 8th gen Intel CPU at the very minimum as well...
> 
> The really amusing part here is that a Celeron (read Atom) N4000 is supported...
> 
> ...


So an i9 7900X with a soldered lid is not powerful enough to run windows 11?  Ha Ha Ha. 

Guess I'll just have to forgo the upgrade.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 26, 2021)

Frank_100 said:


> So an i9 7900X with a soldered lid is not powerful enough to run windows 11? Ha Ha Ha.


its not power its security


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## AsRock (Jun 26, 2021)

HAHA no harm done, well not to me should clear up before 3-4 years pass by.


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## Frank_100 (Jun 26, 2021)

Nash said:


> Labor?
> 
> Seating one of these on a motherboard qualifies as _labor_?
> (downsized pic)
> View attachment 205419


and a masters degree.


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## ixi (Jun 26, 2021)

Sometimes I wondor. Are there scalpers between techpowerup users .

Looks like scalping will be a big problem for a while...


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## Frank_100 (Jun 26, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> its not power its security


When I want security I use Linux and an air Gap.


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## ThrashZone (Jun 26, 2021)

Frank_100 said:


> Clonezilla.
> 
> 
> So an i9 7900X with a soldered lid is not powerful enough to run windows 11?  Ha Ha Ha.
> ...


Hi,
7900x has pigeon poop inside not solder lol


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## Frank_100 (Jun 26, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> 7900x has pigeon poop inside not solder lol


I sent it off to be de-lidded.  So it has solder or maybe liquid metal. 

It runs really cool.


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## Xex360 (Jun 26, 2021)

It seems Microsoft doesn't want people to "upgrade" to Windows 10, this TPM requirement is just stupid, most people have no idea what a bios is let alone use it.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jun 26, 2021)

Xex360 said:


> It seems Microsoft doesn't want people to "upgrade" to Windows 10, this TPM requirement is just stupid, most people have no idea what a bios is let alone use it.



Most people buy prebuilts, laptops, surface's so this thing isnt exactly a super big problem for them.


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## ThrashZone (Jun 26, 2021)

Frank_100 said:


> I sent it off to be de-lidded.  So it has solder or maybe liquid metal.
> 
> It runs really cool.


Hi,
Liquid metal is not solder but indeed cooler it will be


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 26, 2021)

Frank_100 said:


> When I want security I use Linux and an air Gap.


You said a i9 was not powerful enough to run win 11 it's not powerful it's security


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## totalfreq (Jun 26, 2021)

Windows 10 IoT...LTSC 2019 will be good til 2029 and no Cortana...i know where ill be.

Plus 2011 requires a ms login at least on the non enterprise stuff so good bye local account and privacy..no thanks.

Im stockng up on 10 x64 pro oem DVDs and iot ltsc 2019 keys.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 26, 2021)

totalfreq said:


> bye


It's littreraly got a button for local accounts unlike windows 10


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## Bones (Jun 26, 2021)

trparky said:


> Are you f**kin' kidding me? Seriously, *these scalpers need to burn in hell already*.
> 
> Thankfully, I don't need a TPM chip; it's built into my processor.


I'm just waiting for the next *"Pro-Scalper" bullshit post* about them providing a source of what you want when no one else has them as if it's some kind of service, which it isn't.
OK and let's watch the dog chase it's own tail, the scalpers created the scarcity themselves and are turning around to exploit _us_ with it in return.

"Gee, that's a GREAT service Mr. Scalper - What else can you do for (to) us?"

I believe I mentioned elsewhere something scalper-related would be happening soon and it did, just like I'm predicting DDR5 once released WILL be scalped to hell and back too.
I said it and you saw it here before it happened. 
As for these modules, I'm sure MS themselves will feel the sting too when their planned release of Win 11 falls WAY short because there are no modules for anyone to buy for a fair price.

Geez - I mean it's like the release of Win 11 with it's issues and now this, MS is looking to run a train for real on us users and all the others are lining up for their turn to ride the user's "Choo-Choo".
No my name ain't Thomas either but sux for you if yours is.


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## trparky (Jun 26, 2021)

Bones said:


> I'm just waiting for the next *"Pro-Scalper" bullshit post* about them providing a source of what you want when no one else has them.


Exactly. These scalpers are a plague, nothing but a bunch of bottom feeders that price gouge us normal folk.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> NGL, it's weird reading that with Agent Smith's voice lol


Fair enough. Glad I could bring a smile to your face.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 26, 2021)

What if scalpers were just miners who are pissed off at gamers? Using the power of BC to ground pound the USD on web marketplaces everywhere..


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## sam_86314 (Jun 26, 2021)

Meh, I won't even touch Win11 until all this crap can be easily bypassed. I have my reasons to keep secure boot off and I see no reason to have a TPM in any of my personal desktops.

Laptops are a different story, but I still think I'll be staying away from 11 on them too.

Why is scalping a problem now, but it wasn't a problem years ago?


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 26, 2021)

sam_86314 said:


> secure


Secure boot is not mandatory


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Secure boot is not mandatory


microsoft says it is. See below.




They are *very welcome* to back-track on all this fraking nonsense. These are really my only complaints about 11 over 10. But good fraking grief are they whoppers!



sam_86314 said:


> I have my reasons to keep secure boot off and I see no reason to have a TPM in any of my personal desktops.


Right there with you. I also have very good reasons to keep TPM & SecureBoot disabled(and that's NOT going to change), and I know of many people who are in a similar position. These are nothing to do with user security. This is microsoft trying to assert more control over user machines.


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## sam_86314 (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> microsoft says it is. See below.
> View attachment 205480
> They are very welcome to back-track on all this fraking nonsense. These are really my only complaints about 11 over 10. But good fraking grief are that whoppers!



Here's the link to where @lexluthermiester got that image for those who want to check for themselves: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11


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## yotano211 (Jun 26, 2021)

ixi said:


> Sometimes I wondor. Are there scalpers between techpowerup users .
> 
> Looks like scalping will be a big problem for a while...


Yes there is, what do you want to know.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Right there with you. I also have very good reason to keep TPM & SecureBoot disabled, and I know of many people who are in a similar position. These are nothing to do with user security. This is microsoft trying to assert more control over user machines.


Or they are trying to establish a minimum age for hardware?


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Or they are trying to establish a minimum age for hardware?


Perhaps. Either way, it's unacceptable on every level.


----------



## InVasMani (Jun 26, 2021)

Nash said:


> It's literally two steps to change from Windows S. That OS was never intended to be a general purpose consumer OS for powerful PC's. It's a purposefully locked down, secure, efficient OS for lower end laptops (aka chromebooks) in large enterprises, schools. Microsoft can't guarantee the security or performance for users who are downloading crapware and files from all over the net.


Not everyone buys a computer to restricted to Microsoft's store and apps and it's web browser and search engine. Then you don't want or like that they want to proceed to collect data information on you in order to turn it off and use. Technically more steps especially if you haven't done it before. Just because it's cheaper system doesn't mean you should be penalized and forced to only use Microsoft Edge web browser and Bing search on it.

Not everyone using more affordable hardware is infested with malware simply because they run great programs that aren't on the Microsoft Store things like Foobar, Firefox, LMMS, MIXXX, BB4WIN, GIMP, Audacity, VLC Media Player, Shortcut, SumatraPDF, VirtualBox, Notepad++, FileZilla, DropBox, Blender 3D, Handbrake, 7-Zip, and many others I missed none of which will run by Windows S Mode standards at least w/o first being converted over to the Window Store into app. I'm sorry, but it's absurd. That's just open source mind you there Steam and your entire Steam library which never mind if the system could play the game or not Microsoft will not allow it in the name security. Apparently security only matters in Windows S Mode though to Microsoft. If you've got a expensive RTX laptop by all means you're just asking to be the victim of malware hence no Windows S Mode laptop on best buy at all. Apparently if you want to run DAW or DJ software on a laptop you should be expected to dish out for a RTX Windows 10 malware laptop.

Step 1) Look up how to switch out of S Mode.
Step 2) Download Microsoft store app to switch out of S Mode.
Step 3) Launch setup Microsoft Account thru email verification process in browser because they force it on the end user and a bit of multi-step process itself with all the hurdles of that.
Step 4) Sign into Microsoft Account.
Step 5) Launch the Store app to turn of S Mode.
Step 6) Turn off Microsoft Account sign in so so it boots straight into Windows without a password prompt because it's a home computer and it's way more convenient. (More a Windows 10 general issue really)


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## Bones (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> microsoft says it is. See below.
> View attachment 205480
> They are very welcome to back-track on all this fraking nonsense. These are really my only complaints about 11 over 10. But good fraking grief are they whoppers!
> 
> ...


Exactly, and don't forget how with Ryzen USB ports quit working with Win 7 but do fine with Win 10 even though the hardware itself is fully capable of supporting them with ease as has been long proven as fact by now.
My ports were working fine with Win 7 and my Ryzen so I know it's a total crock about the drivers and Ryzen - MS told AMD to include the microcode in their chips for not allowing/disabling USB drivers to newer hardware to forcibly make us switch to Win 10 and all it's crap. 
It's just MS trying to force people into doing what THEY WANT us to do and they don't give a shit, much less two about the cost of it to us which we, not them has to bear the burden of.
With this if you think MS is going to back off, think again. 
It's been planned all along and they already knew folks would be finding ways to work around it and with each one found they'll happily close that loophole. 

And let's also not forget the forced updates, lack of user control out of the box, features you could not get rid of (Cortana), user settings/preferences being zapped with each and every update and the same for drivers too getting borked. 

Speaking of drivers, it would be beyond funny (NOT) if the driver for your TPM module gets zapped in an update.
They knew once the word got out these modules would be sought after but didn't think (Or care) that scalpers would be watching too. 

And the same for having anything that is trusting enabled by default as it is with remote registry as an example, that's a real security risk and you'd better believe that registry setting gets disabled everytime here along with alot of others that's "On" by default. 

Yet another reason why I will not use Windows from now on for anything.


----------



## Jack1n (Jun 26, 2021)

Just stay on Windows 10 until 2025 when official support for it ends, Windows 11 is just 10 with more telemetry.


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## Tomgang (Jun 26, 2021)

Scalpers will never change. Where there are a chance of making money, scalpers will be.

Scalpers sucks and I will never change my opinion on them. It might not be illegal. But it's so morally wrong.

I mean scalpers hurt the market by buying up all or at least as much inventory as possible and that raising prices and those greddy bastards can make a profit and us that really need it. Either can't run windows 11 or just as with gpu's, have to pay way over msrp.

At least this time, I am prepared for windows 11 with my new zen 3 build. So I don't have to be concerned about that. 

But scalpers still sucks. I hope they burn in with all there inventory and have a big lose on profit. Don't support scalpers, by buying from them. What ever it's a Tom module, gpu, a console or any other thing. Buying from them, only motivate them to continue there doing.


----------



## ypsylon (Jun 26, 2021)

Scalpers are hot air skulls. When W11 hits the market every new motherboard will have it on board or come with module included. That's 1. TPM is buzzword now because only selected corporations ever employed that.

2. I have no intention being sucked into W11. It clearly is designed to create M$ walled garden a la Apple, but at least Apple is not hell bent focused on spying on you every second of your life like M$ or Google.

3. Will never activate Secure Boot under any circumstances. Feature conceived (+UEFI) to take away all control over the system from the user.

4. TPM is relevant in corporate environment. For home PC it's completely meaningless (unless you're mafia Don, banker or a politician which is the same thing), to make a requirement out of it is a travesty.

5. Yet again M$ stole UI ideas from MacOS and implemented them badly into Winblows. 

W11 announcement = for me nothing more that sticking with 10 for as long as possible and exploring how I can move stuff to Linux, I know that 3D modelling software native to Winblows is not exactly thrilled to work under WINE.

I really expected that this (in the end laughable) keynote will deliver something really tangible. Removing ancient compatibilities for things which are no longer supported (floppies or A: partition still cannot be assigned to the system partition, 20 years after floppies died which is beyond retarded, user control over User directory during install process so it doesn't require sideloading script to work) or introducing new file system which will be more suitable for NAND and NVMe than ancient NTFS. F M$ all I have to say about W11.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

Jack1n said:


> Windows 11 is just 10 with more telemetry.


Actually, that's one thing they haven't done. At least with the leaked dev build. The telemetry is the same and just as easily disabled.


----------



## Aura24 (Jun 26, 2021)

Microsoft is going to back track on this (just watch), because the average PC user is not going to know what the hell is "TPM" Tonight, I use the "PC Health Check" only to get the result that I don't meet the requirement because I don't have TPM. I know that my motherboard has a TPM Header, but I said to myself, "Why the hell would I need a TPM Module when I have a Ryzen 3900XT" Sure enough, after researching, the Ryzen 3900XT has a built-in TPM, but it is disabled by default in the BIOS on my ASRock B540 Steel Legend. I enabled it and now I meet the requirements. Again, the average PC users is not going to take the time to research or have the "know how" and enabling TPM. So what is going to happen is someone is going to panic and buy a overprice TPM module (when they don't need it) plug into their motherboard, turn on the PC, and nothing happens (thinking that this a plug and play device), not realizing that the module needs to be enabled in the BIOS. 

Ohh... this is not going to go well...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

Aura24 said:


> Ohh... this is not going to go well...


True!

Welcome to TPU!


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 26, 2021)

This is just stupid, as the external TPM modules are most likely not needed for any CPU that's supported by Windows 10. Whoever scalped the modules are most likely just going to lose money.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1408133909896777729


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## qubit (Jun 26, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> i'm curious to see how this will work for older motherboards that you can buy the TPM and add it. Because even with doing that Haswell doesn't meet the cpu requirements for windows 11.
> 
> Intel 8th gen and up.


I’ve got a 2700K. Pity me.


----------



## Solid State Soul ( SSS ) (Jun 26, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> will be going to Linux anyway now, so scalpers and M$ can eat it.  damn, it feels good to be free once and for all.  Linux to the moon!


Linux is fine, if your time is worthless


----------



## InVasMani (Jun 26, 2021)

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:


> Linux is fine, if your time is worthless


Have you seen the number of people on smartphones...


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## RJARRRPCGP (Jun 26, 2021)

Aura24 said:


> I know that my motherboard has a TPM Header, but I said to myself, "Why the hell would I need a TPM Module when I have a Ryzen 3900XT" Sure enough, after researching, the Ryzen 3900XT has a built-in TPM, but it is disabled by default in the BIOS on my ASRock B540 Steel Legend. I enabled it and now I meet the requirements. Again, the average PC users is not going to take the time to research or have the "know how" and enabling TPM.


I think you mean "B450" for the chipset. Look in the security section and look for the "fTPM" option and enable it.


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## xtreemchaos (Jun 26, 2021)

i think all my riggs support apart from a old lappy i keep for reading cds and dvds. ive just got used to win10 and now ive got to learn 11 suppose its not that diff to 10 but being a aspie im not keen on change unless its hardwear   .


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## BSim500 (Jun 26, 2021)

*- If W11 needs TPM*, then MS won't be able to force an upgrade on those who don't have it

*- If W11 doesn't need TPM*, then scalpers have just wasted their money.

^ Either way sounds like a win to me.


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## trparky (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Perhaps. Either way, it's unacceptable on every level.


Tell that to the likes of both Google Chrome and Firefox in which they deprecated older processors because of support for SSSE3. People bitched then and they'll bitch now. You can't keep supporting old hardware all the time when you want to start taking advantage of newer processor instruction sets.


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## Jism (Jun 26, 2021)

Octopuss said:


> What does the TPM thing do anyway? I have never ever heard it mentioned as being useful for anything.



You can call it hardware based security. More about it on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module#History


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## Mussels (Jun 26, 2021)

Octopuss said:


> What does the TPM thing do anyway? I have never ever heard it mentioned as being useful for anything.


Now, this is coming from someone who never used this, read up on it, or gives a single shit about it, but since i've seen it tied into file encryption, bitlocker and so on i assumed it was a bunch of locally stored security keys, so if someone cloned your data/hard drives they'd be unable to decrypt it. Could be extended to prevent stuff like ransomware, maybe?


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## Aura24 (Jun 26, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> I think you mean "B450" for the chipset. Look in the security section and look for the "fTPM" option and enable it.


It's a typo (wrote this post at 2 am) , but yes it is a B450 and its now enabled.


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## r9 (Jun 26, 2021)

People get all worked over a win 10 theme.


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## Zubasa (Jun 26, 2021)

tabascosauz said:


> It's not a hard requirement that you have the CPUs listed:
> 
> View attachment 205414
> 
> ...





Frick said:


> Just gonna go ahead and quote myself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BTW M$ edited the page again, and no mention of soft-floors now.
I guess we must give Microsoft some slack as an indie studio instead of a multi-billion dollar company. /s


----------



## Totally (Jun 26, 2021)

Zubasa said:


> BTW M$ edited the page again, and no mention of soft-floors now.
> I guess we must give Microsoft some slack as an indie studio instead of a multi-billion dollar company. /s
> View attachment 205517



Jeeze...

Company ignoring the consumer input and delivering exactly what they didn't ask for is pure evil
Company listening to the consumer and trying to compromise is an embarrassment


----------



## Skylinestar (Jun 26, 2021)

r9 said:


> People get all worked over a win 10 theme.


Stardock : Time to work harder


----------



## Zubasa (Jun 26, 2021)

Totally said:


> Jeeze...
> 
> Company ignoring the consumer input and delivering exactly what they didn't ask for is pure evil
> Company listening to the consumer and trying to compromise is an embarrassment


This is even worse, flip-flopping between lifting the arbitrary limit and then edit it back out.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1408580116393848839


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## Bones (Jun 26, 2021)

Aura24 said:


> Microsoft is going to back track on this (just watch), because the average PC user is not going to know what the hell is "TPM" Tonight, I use the "PC Health Check" only to get the result that I don't meet the requirement because I don't have TPM. I know that my motherboard has a TPM Header, but I said to myself, "Why the hell would I need a TPM Module when I have a Ryzen 3900XT" Sure enough, after researching, the Ryzen 3900XT has a built-in TPM, but it is disabled by default in the BIOS on my ASRock B540 Steel Legend. I enabled it and now I meet the requirements. Again, the average PC users is not going to take the time to research or have the "know how" and enabling TPM. So what is going to happen is someone is going to panic and buy a overprice TPM module (when they don't need it) plug into their motherboard, turn on the PC, and nothing happens (thinking that this a plug and play device), not realizing that the module needs to be enabled in the BIOS.
> 
> *Ohh... this is not going to go well...*


And for now it's looking even worse.
ATM it seems TPM 1.2 itself isn't good enough.
Microsoft does away with 'soft floor', updates minimum Windows 11 specs with TPM 2.0 requirement - MSPoweruser

Of course this may not be the case now since things can change on a dime and MS right now is dancing to try and make the new OS more appealing with all the controversy over it. 
However with the latest requirements we've seen published there is no longer any mention of TPM 1.2, only TPM 2.0 so for now, just take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## totalfreq (Jun 26, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> It's littreraly got a button for local accounts unlike windows 10


"Windows 11 Home edition requires internet connectivity and a *Microsoft account* to complete device setup on first use.

Switching a device out of Windows 11 Home in S mode also requires internet connectivity.

For all Windows 11 editions, internet access is required to perform updates and to download and take advantage of some features. *A Microsoft account is required for some features*."

Enterprise likely wont, but if its on home...pro will likely require it.

I just bought a pro 10 workstation license from the MS store. It didnt have a product key in the download section normally where download software is.

I contracted MS and they said they no longer offer product keys with the digital downloads. They forced me to activate it against the MS account I purchased the license from. Im in the process of getting it refunded as im upgrading a computer that isnt mine, but the Microsoft rep was totally unprofessional and said that isnt how windows works and that anyone who knows how to use a computer knows you need an MS account.

While my MCSE, Azure Certs, Action Pack, SPLA and decades as a professional tech since NT3.5/3.11 would say otherwise.

I escalated to internal team. I was trying to buy a retail version as this was a friends not buisness computer...no good deed goes unpunished i guess.


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## TheUn4seen (Jun 26, 2021)

I have to give it to Microsoft: No other company can turn what is essentially a graphical theme into such a crap shoot. All the stupidity and misinformation probably works in their favor - after all, best advertising is free advertising - but at this point it just reeks of incompetence.


----------



## totalfreq (Jun 26, 2021)

Windows 11 is the precurser to SaaS. Once they have everone on an MS account, office 365, and onedrive they will over a free remote VM workstations to access all your stuff from anywhere. Once you sign that...your machinenwill be a remote terminal, and they will then run DRM and software conpatibility checks agajnst everything you run and do. Youll lose control over your data and be enslaved to a small but ever growing fee. Think icloud...free storage to back up your pictures, gontacts and files...of you hit your limit...$1/mo...oh you need more space....$10/mo...its where all this is headed.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 26, 2021)

Hi,
Yeah the thing most companies love is stuff going viral is the term still allowed after covid  lol


----------



## rhaoul (Jun 26, 2021)

I don't understand this kind of choice.


----------



## Makaveli (Jun 26, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> Have you seen the number of people on smartphones...



So were comparing smartphones running andriod to Desktop PC's running Linux?


----------



## Bones (Jun 26, 2021)

totalfreq said:


> Windows 11 is the precurser to SaaS. Once they have everone on an MS account, office 365, and onedrive they will over a free remote VM workstations to access all your stuff from anywhere. *Once you sign that...your machinenwill be a remote terminal*, *and they will then run DRM and software conpatibility checks agajnst everything you run and do. Youll lose control over your data and be enslaved to a small but ever growing fee.* Think icloud...free storage to back up your pictures, gontacts and files...of you hit your limit...$1/mo...oh you need more space....$10/mo...its where all this is headed.


Exactly what I was thinking.

The current thing with scalpers ATM is just a nusicance to MS and us, that's why in time, everything will have it built-in to ensure you've got it whether you want it or not and this is what I'm thinking here.

TPM modules are used in a business, for a home application it doesn't make alot of sense.....
Unless you intend to transform these machines INTO home versions (Workstations) of these business type machines with no local storage of data.

To even access your machine or data you'd need an account to log in just as it is at your workplace.....
And guess what MS has waiting for you for that purpose _once you create it_?

The machine is forced to go out, ping the master server and retrieve what it needs to operate as it is in a business that has a network with workstations using a login account. MS has always been big about networking ever since it was started, the cloud itself being a step in that direction to slowly but surely move things in that direction.

Since it now seems they are setting up the basic structure of this for ALL users of Winblows, the thing about TPM itself and TPM modules makes perfect sense.

No more local storage of anything - If you name it, won't be local to your machine anymore once all this is in place nor will your control be local either.
That may take another Win version or two to get going for real but _I do see it coming_.


----------



## Frick (Jun 26, 2021)

totalfreq said:


> Windows 11 is the precurser to SaaS. Once they have everone on an MS account, office 365, and onedrive they will over a free remote VM workstations to access all your stuff from anywhere. Once you sign that...your machinenwill be a remote terminal, and they will then run DRM and software conpatibility checks agajnst everything you run and do. Youll lose control over your data and be enslaved to a small but ever growing fee. Think icloud...free storage to back up your pictures, gontacts and files...of you hit your limit...$1/mo...oh you need more space....$10/mo...its where all this is headed.



I don't know. It's just not a sane thing to do as it would exclude a whole lot of people from using their systems, and that would actually be worse for them even if they did manage to make some money on some users. Windows Home being free even if you aren't upgrading is far more likely IMO. It's all about ecosystems and they want as many people in them as possible. Suddenly charging people for being in it is a bit like Google suddenly charging $10/month for just using a Google Android phone. But want to skip the MS account thing or want to use it in a business setting? Gotta pay for Pro.

Also, what you are describing wouldn't be a wholly bad idea. Have a low power AIO on a desk and just rent power and space as needed. I'd be fine with having that option, but that being the _only _way to have PC's is a _long _way off.


Bones said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> The current thing with scalpers ATM is just a nusicance to MS and us, that's why in time, everything will have it built-in to ensure you've got it whether you want it or not and this is what I'm thinking here.
> 
> ...



So it's literally decades away then. A lot of stuff can happen before then. And again, I'd be fine with having the option described above, but it being the only way to have computers is a really long way away.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 26, 2021)

Kind of like the CNC machines at work. You cant just reload its OS if there is a bug, you cant do anything without a code from the office. You cant move some of them more than 6 feet because of geo tagging. And for the CMM you are not allowed to move it at all. You have to get Mitutoyo to come do it at a steep cost.


----------



## Bones (Jun 26, 2021)

Frick said:


> I don't know. It's just not a sane thing to do as it would exclude a whole lot of people from using their systems, and that would actually be worse for them even if they did manage to make some money on some users. Windows Home being free even if you aren't upgrading is far more likely IMO. It's all about ecosystems and they want as many people in them as possible. Suddenly charging people for being in it is a bit like Google suddenly charging $10/month for just using a Google Android phone. But want to skip the MS account thing or want to use it in a business setting? Gotta pay for Pro.
> 
> Also, what you are describing wouldn't be a wholly bad idea. Have a low power AIO on a desk and just rent power and space as needed. I'd be fine with having that option, but that being the _only _way to have PC's is a _long _way off.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if it can really be said as being "Decades off" maybe a decade for sure, perhaps two but no more and (To me) that's _really_ stretching it.

Right now trying to get folks to move on won't be easy.
The scalpers will be slowing things down hogging all the TPM modules for unreal profits.
Of course MS didn't think of or even care about this with the modules, they do know in time all hardware dies or just becomes ususeable and the need to replace will occur and since they ain't having to pay for it.....

All these "Moves" have been done with a goal in mind, developement of new tech just doesn't happen with no objective in mind - You have to know WHAT the tech is supposed to do and it's purpose for being made when you go to create it.

The cloud has been around for a few years now, AI learning stuff going on, self-driving cars now starting to appear for real....
The kinds of advances all this needs are right around the corner, much closer than many realize and what we're seeing with the TPM modules and their purpose is just one small facet of it, all of which adds up to a singular purpose and I can promise you, MS is one that does KNOW what the end-game/purpose is all about.


----------



## totalfreq (Jun 26, 2021)

Frick said:


> I don't know. It's just not a sane thing to do as it would exclude a whole lot of people from using their systems, and that would actually be worse for them even if they did manage to make some money on some users. Windows Home being free even if you aren't upgrading is far more likely IMO. It's all about ecosystems and they want as many people in them as possible. Suddenly charging people for being in it is a bit like Google suddenly charging $10/month for just using a Google Android phone. But want to skip the MS account thing or want to use it in a business setting? Gotta pay for Pro.
> 
> Also, what you are describing wouldn't be a wholly bad idea. Have a low power AIO on a desk and just rent power and space as needed. I'd be fine with having that option, but that being the _only _way to have PC's is a _long _way off.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately its not decades away...office365 was the testbed for this. Ive been running cloud stacks sjnce 2012 and was a satacentr facility manager prior...we are all headed owards headless ends. CloudXR is just another way of moving compute from VR/AR across 5g or AX to do precomoute st the edge and rhe massize processjng at the DC core. 

You have a cellphone, internet. Maybe cable TV, spotify or pandora...how many services do you pay for monthly that you didnt pay for 20 years ago? There was a lot of mneybin creating code and then selljng milkions of copies...but then the overhead of constantly updating, pstchjng and improving became cumbersome and new users figured out how to keep their existing systems functional on old versions. This will force people into a required update situstion...ever notice very few ohon3 have enough onboard memepry to last more than 3 or so years worth if OS updates. 

Its not decadss away...we are alrwady here. Bte, i charge $0.50/gb of enterprise cloud storage...and people dont delete anythjbg so every month the bill gets higher...and for me addjng a few disks to the san is relatively cheap.


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## InVasMani (Jun 26, 2021)

Windows S Mode should be reserved strictly for Apple users that want to dual boot to PC.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

trparky said:


> Tell that to the likes of both Google Chrome and Firefox in which they deprecated older processors because of support for SSSE3. People bitched then and they'll bitch now. You can't keep supporting old hardware all the time when you want to start taking advantage of newer processor instruction sets.


Oh please... That is a sad, tired old argument and completely out of context here. Firefox and Chrome both STILL support and run fine on every CPU/system that Microsoft has just declared "unsupported".


Zubasa said:


> BTW M$ edited the page again, and no mention of soft-floors now.
> I guess we must give Microsoft some slack as an indie studio instead of a multi-billion dollar company. /s
> View attachment 205517


Hmm.. That's interesting. The following hasn't changed:








						Meet Windows 11: The Newest Windows Version
					

Meet Windows 11, the newest Windows version from Microsoft. Upgrade your PC to Windows 11, or explore which devices come equipped with its versatile features.



					www.microsoft.com
				




Also, this is an interesting read. Pay attention to section 3.6.1.


			https://download.microsoft.com/download/7/8/8/788bf5ab-0751-4928-a22c-dffdc23c27f2/Minimum%20Hardware%20Requirements%20for%20Windows%2011.pdf


----------



## StaticVapour (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm so fed up of Windows 10 already that I don't even care about Windows 11. 

Nothing is going to block me from moving over using Linux. Every damn time my machine acts up, it eats away tiny bit of that trust I got to tinker with this sloppy OS. 

I even have Macbook Pro that Apple considers vintage and that thing for some reason just works. I use it rarely, but when I absolutely need it, that thing just works... Same thing with Thinkpad I had, put Linux on that and kept it as secondary PC in case I need to take computing power on the go.

I'm on my 3rd reinstall of Windows already on this rig, and looks like 4th one is coming soon as this thing boots slowly even with moderately speedy SSD and low amount of programs to start up. Some sort of "Windows rot'

Small rant. Sorry.


----------



## mechtech (Jun 26, 2021)

You mean scalpers did everyone a favour??


----------



## Makaveli (Jun 26, 2021)

mechtech said:


> You mean scalpers did everyone a favour??


I only see price increases if you are trying to buy these things from ebay.

My local retailer price is this.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 26, 2021)

_Kind of funny to me the conspiracy theories and such._
Windows terminals, shit some companies are already on that and have been for year's.
They're not going to be successful jamming it down consumer throats until it's killer app shows up that's impossible on a normal desktop, who could guess when and what would cause that, not me.
I wanted uefi mode and secure boot, encrypted drive's etc on win 10 and now I have it working TPM is a no brainer to me with My perspective, others differ and I do agree it should be a choice though.


----------



## Frick (Jun 26, 2021)

totalfreq said:


> Unfortunately its not decades away...office365 was the testbed for this. Ive been running cloud stacks sjnce 2012 and was a satacentr facility manager prior...we are all headed owards headless ends. CloudXR is just another way of moving compute from VR/AR across 5g or AX to do precomoute st the edge and rhe massize processjng at the DC core.
> 
> You have a cellphone, internet. Maybe cable TV, spotify or pandora...how many services do you pay for monthly that you didnt pay for 20 years ago? There was a lot of mneybin creating code and then selljng milkions of copies...but then the overhead of constantly updating, pstchjng and improving became cumbersome and new users figured out how to keep their existing systems functional on old versions. This will force people into a required update situstion...ever notice very few ohon3 have enough onboard memepry to last more than 3 or so years worth if OS updates.
> 
> Its not decadss away...we are alrwady here. Bte, i charge $0.50/gb of enterprise cloud storage...and people dont delete anythjbg so every month the bill gets higher...and for me addjng a few disks to the san is relatively cheap.



Office is a wholly different beast though. It was always optional with some free alternatives. There is no free alternative to Windows and it's not really optional if you buy say a laptop.


----------



## Zubasa (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Hmm.. That's interesting. The following hasn't changed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The entire situation is more confusing then it ever has been, even considering its M$.
The requirement for TPM to be enabled by default is baffling, given that I am not aware of any DIY AM4 motherboard that have fTPM enable be default.
I assume that applies to OEM systems only.

Zen1 CPUs have no functional difference regarding software compare to their Zen+ counter parts.
Zen1 CPUs support every instruction and security feature that Zen+ offers and the only notable difference are cache lateness and clock speeds.
Especially the fTPM is tied the the firmware/Agesa of the platform, and putting a 3950X into a X370 or B450 motherboard doesn't magically make it not support Win11 either.
Same thing is true between most of the Intel X299 CPUs.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Jun 26, 2021)

Just going to put this out here, since I guess everyone's forgotten about it.








						TPM-FAIL vulnerabilities impact TPM chips in desktops, laptops, servers
					

TPM-FAIL lets attackers steal private keys from TPMs. Attacks take from minutes to a few hours.




					www.zdnet.com


----------



## Totally (Jun 26, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> Just going to put this out here, since I guess everyone's forgotten about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Afftects Intel PTT fTPM and hardware solutions based on  STMicroelectronics ST33 TPM Chips. Another Intel vuln why am I not surprised and does anyone know how widespread is the ST33 chip usage?


----------



## Easo (Jun 26, 2021)

The more I read comments on this and other W11 news posts, the more I laugh. No, not at Microsoft, but about people.
P.S. 
Writing _M$_ just makes one look like a relict who never grew up.


----------



## dogwitch (Jun 26, 2021)

i hope they support a 1950x cpu.... really salty on that..
also the tpm for consumer .. yeah no...


----------



## Hiner101 (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Also, this is an interesting read. Pay attention to section 3.6.1.
> 
> 
> https://download.microsoft.com/download/7/8/8/788bf5ab-0751-4928-a22c-dffdc23c27f2/Minimum%20Hardware%20Requirements%20for%20Windows%2011.pdf
> ...


about these documents of minimum requirements for windows 11, I wanted to report since I have not yet read here messages about it, the fact that, apart CPU support and TPM there is also an additional possibility of incompatibility that at the moment seems pretty much ignored (unfortunately mine).

The section dedicated to the minimum requirements for a system to be considered compatible with windows 11 under TPM is identical to that dedicated to windows 10 and valid from July 2016 for manufacturers.
section 3.7 (page 33)


			https://download.microsoft.com/download/c/1/5/c150e1ca-4a55-4a7e-94c5-bfc8c2e785c5/Windows%2010%20Minimum%20Hardware%20Requirements.pdf
		


I have a system introduced to the market in 2020 (mini pc ZOTAC ZBOX CA621) with a Ryzen 3200U (that has TPM inside like all recent CPU's) indicated as compatible in the win 11 list. You might think it's all ok. Unfortunately in my semi-assembled PC from Zotac the option to enable the fTPM of the ryzen has been removed from the BIOS and clearly there are no headers or anything else on the motherboard. Zotac refuse to do something about this and say the TPM is not supported anymore on this 2020 model. Microsoft...what we have to do in cases like this?  something to claim against these unfair manufacturers?

What a shame of windows 11 launch


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jun 26, 2021)

I have 0 interest in 11. The only PC I have running 10 is my tv PC, which is haswell based and thus isn't eligeable anyway. Everything else is running linux, even my gaming rig thanks to valve and proton. 

All this for a service pack. We didn't get a new file system that fixes NTFSs flaws nor did we finally get all the control panel options I to settings, or any of the blatant issues with the registry fixed.  But hey, now you have to have TPM and a MS account, YAY!


Easo said:


> more I read comments on this and other W11 news posts, the more I laugh. No, not at Microsoft, but about people.
> P.S.
> Writing _M$_ just makes one look like a relict who never grew up.


And writing comments like this, trying to look "cool", make you look like a shill, and not a particularly Intelligent one


----------



## sweethoneybee (Jun 26, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Apparently you can just delete "appraiserres.dll" from your installation source and it will get rid of the check.


I have deleted the "appraiserres.dll" file and got rid of the check but instead i get the message "this pc can't run windows 11" now. I´m absolutely shure that i fulfill the hardware requirements of power but my CPU and motherboard just don´t have TPM and UEFI at all. Any idea how i could also get rid of this check or message? Windows 10 is running very well since many years on my machine, even with new games. Or is it just not enough to only delete the "appraiserres.dll" file in my case?

*EDIT:* I know now what my problem with installing Win11 is: I tried it on an empty SSD that always stopped with the message that i don´t meet the requirements but when i try to install it on an SSD that has Win10 already, it works like a charm. I guess now that it will work only with the final version to install it on an empty SSD.


----------



## Totally (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm surprised no one really caught on the sinister reason for the TPM requirement. Having it MS finally achieves their dream of tying a specific key to a specific to a specific PC. Privacy reasons alone that is a bad thing. I don't like it because if you cook your mb, you might as well just kiss your install goodbye because you can't simply swap in a backup and even if there is a board with TPM 2.0 on hand, Windows won't boot since the keys on the TPM aren't valid. The internet requirement is probably so Windows can phone home and check against a database if the registered mb and Windows key match.


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 26, 2021)

Totally said:


> I'm surprised no one really caught on the sinister reason for the TPM requirement. Having it MS finally achieves their dream of tying a specific key to a specific to a specific PC. Privacy reasons alone that is a bad thing. I don't like it because if you cook your mb, you might as well just kiss your install goodbye because you can't simply swap in a backup and even if there is a board with TPM 2.0 on hand, Windows won't boot since the keys on the TPM aren't valid. The internet requirement is probably so Windows can phone home and check against a database if the registered mb and Windows key match.



I fail to see why it's so sinister. Piracy isn't a good thing, and I say that as someone who used pirated keys enough to memorize them. Besides, they'd probably tie your license to the account you used at MS Store. For physical keys, I imagine you can simply get on the phone and talk it out with a MS representative. Ultimately, consumer defense groups would come up with lawsuits.

Besides, someone will find a way to circumvent all these protections. No security system is invincible.


----------



## dogwitch (Jun 26, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> I fail to see why it's so sinister. Piracy isn't a good thing, and I say that as someone who used pirated keys enough to memorize them. Besides, they'd probably tie your license to the account you used at MS Store. For physical keys, I imagine you can simply get on the phone and talk it out with a MS representative. Ultimately, consumer defense groups would come up with lawsuits.
> 
> Besides, someone will find a way to circumvent all these protections. No security system is invincible.


which is fine. i just donnt want it to knee cap my ability to install it onto my machine. if that the only limiting factor


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 26, 2021)

dogwitch said:


> which is fine. i just donnt want it to knee cap my ability to install it onto my machine. if that the only limiting factor



I agree about the potential headache, if anything.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jun 26, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> I fail to see why it's so sinister. Piracy isn't a good thing, and I say that as someone who used pirated keys enough to memorize them. Besides, they'd probably tie your license to the account you used at MS Store. For physical keys, I imagine you can simply get on the phone and talk it out with a MS representative. Ultimately, consumer defense groups would come up with lawsuits.
> 
> Besides, someone will find a way to circumvent all these protections. No security system is invincible.


These types of anti piracy measures cause headaches for legitimate users while doing nothing to stop pirates. The Russians have already bypassed the TPM and secure boot restrictions and windows 11 isnt even out. 

Given how willingly MS has given out windows 10 and how frankly piss easy 10 is to pirate this is a major shift in the opposite direction.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 26, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> I fail to see why it's so sinister. Piracy isn't a good thing, and I say that as someone who used pirated keys enough to memorize them. Besides, they'd probably tie your license to the account you used at MS Store. For physical keys, I imagine you can simply get on the phone and talk it out with a MS representative. Ultimately, consumer defense groups would come up with lawsuits.
> 
> Besides, someone will find a way to circumvent all these protections. No security system is invincible.


None of this crap is about piracy or security. This is about limiting the control users have over the OS so we can not forcibly remove apps or programs we don't want or change the OS to work in a way microsoft disapproves of. These moronic requirements are all about microsoft trying to assert control over the user.


----------



## trparky (Jun 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> None of this crap is about piracy or security. This is about limiting the control users have over the OS so we can not forcibly remove apps or programs we don't want or change the OS to work in a way microsoft disapproves of. These moronic requirements are all about microsoft trying to assert control over the user.


Maybe it’s about securing a platform that many see as a virus filled cesspool of filth. You don’t have to go very far to read of things like ransomeware to know what I mean.

Apple does it and yet nobody seems to have an issue, in fact their users welcome a more secure computing platform and Microsoft knows this. They’re copying Apple here.


----------



## Frank_100 (Jun 27, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Now, this is coming from someone who never used this, read up on it, or gives a single shit about it, but since i've seen it tied into file encryption, bitlocker and so on i assumed it was a bunch of locally stored security keys, so if someone cloned your data/hard drives they'd be unable to decrypt it. Could be extended to prevent stuff like ransomware, maybe?


It appears from some quick reading that Linux can't tell the difference between BitLocker encrypted data and free hard drive space. If this is true, it looks like Windows 11 is a move against dual boot systems and system backups that clone the drive outside of windows..

If I am wrong about this (and I hope I am) Linux will only be available on a Windows configured PC as an emulation.

It is also worrying how will 3rd party drive encryption work in Windows 11. Will Microsoft have access to all keys in TPM Module.

After more reading: BitLocked drives can be cloned but it is slow and you need a really big backup drive because the whole drive has to be copied, and not all cloning software can do it.

Dual boots can be installed on BitLocked systems but the drive has to be decrypted first. 

Will windows 11 even allow BitLocker to be turned off, I don't know.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 27, 2021)

trparky said:


> Maybe it’s about securing a platform that many see as a virus filled cesspool of filth. You don’t have to go very far to read of things like ransomeware to know what I mean.


Can't have liberty and freedom without dealing with some unpleasantness from d-bags that want to do bad things. Fact of life. Learn to live with it, learn how to properly protect yourself digitally(with proper understanding of utilities and computing ethic) or crawl under a rock and stay there.
(that last part was not aimed at you personally)


trparky said:


> Apple does it and yet nobody seems to have an issue


Rubbish nonsense. I do not and will not use Apple products for the very reason that I can not gain control over my own device. I do not and will not play in a walled garden and I am *FAR* from alone in that opinion.


trparky said:


> in fact their users welcome a more secure computing platform and Microsoft knows this.


And some of those people are ignorant sheep.


trparky said:


> They’re copying Apple here.


There are MUCH better ways to secure a platform. microsoft is too lazy to put in the work and creative thinking to do it right.



Frank_100 said:


> If I am wrong about this (and I hope I am) Linux will only be available on a Windows configured PC as an emulation.


Yet another reason to refuse to accept microsoft's dumbass limitations. With SecureBoot enabled, multi-boot system configurations(systems setup with multiple bootable drives with differing OSes on each) are nearly impossible to use. This is one of the reasons I will not be tolerating these limitations.


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## trparky (Jun 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Can't have liberty and freedom without dealing


Well if people would quit pissing in the Cornflakes maybe we might be able to have nice things.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 27, 2021)

trparky said:


> Well if people would quit pissing in the Cornflakes maybe we might be able to have nice things.


In a perfect society that would be a thing. Unfortunately, this is the real world, a world in which bad people do bad things. It is a world were we the people need to learn to protect ourselves instead of relying on government and corporations to protect us like pathetic little sheep.


----------



## trparky (Jun 27, 2021)

Yes, I practice safe computing habits but for once I'd like to be able to let my guard down without everyone trying to destroy my systems while doing so.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 27, 2021)

trparky said:


> Yes, I practice safe computing habits but for once I'd like to be able to let my guard down without everyone trying to destroy my systems while doing so.


Install and learn how to properly use a firewall other than the windows firewall. You will then be able to browse and use the net without much worry.


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## VEGGIM (Jun 27, 2021)

if it will make anyone happy, windows 11 pro doesn't require you to have a Microsoft account to sign in


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## Mussels (Jun 27, 2021)

VEGGIM said:


> if it will make anyone happy, windows 11 pro doesn't require you to have a Microsoft account to sign in


I'm all for that... and now we know which one the pirates will aim for too


----------



## Easo (Jun 27, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> And writing comments like this, trying to look "cool", make you look like a shill, and not a particularly Intelligent one


As opposed to people talking about sheeps and big bad corpos in comments? Hah... Years in IT support painted a very clear picture of the average computer user and where majority of issues comes from, no matter the OS. People either do nothing or listen to the so called enthusiasts and tech experts writing "Winblows" and suggesting doing stuff like disabling Windows Update so that "_M$ does not spy on them_". Afterwards there is surprise about why their data was encrypted/stolen, "Windows became slow" or why the computer in question is another node of some botnet.


lexluthermiester said:


> Install and learn how to properly use a firewall other than the windows firewall. You will then be able to browse and use the net without much worry.


Almost as if firewall alone fully protects you. No, no they do not. Firewall is not going to stop anything if you open a breached webpage, or a specifically crafted one. Add to it vulnerability chaining for more _fun_.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 27, 2021)

VEGGIM said:


> if it will make anyone happy, windows 11 pro doesn't require you to have a Microsoft account to sign in


Do you have a link where you read this?



Easo said:


> Almost as if firewall alone fully protects you. No, no they do not.


No, not fully. But a good firewall is a solid method of defense. Discounting the value of one is a fools errand.


Easo said:


> Firewall is not going to stop anything if you open a breached webpage, or a specifically crafted one.


As I said, properly configured firewall. A good and properly configured browser is important. However a good computing ethic is important too.


----------



## trparky (Jun 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> A good and properly configured browser is important.


Yes. With a good adblocking extension and a good filter list. That and employing Windows Defender's Exploit Protection Technology that injects a special DLL into the memory space of the browser to protect it with a number of protection types such as blocking untrusted fonts, code integrity guard, control flow guard, disabling of extension points, disabling of Win32k system calls, export address filtering, mandatory ALSR, import address filtering, and others that help block known exploit types even against zero-day exploits. These protections basically harden the program in question to protect it from a whole class of exploit techniques.

You can read about these protection techniques at the Microsoft article linked below...
Customize exploit protection | Microsoft Docs


----------



## sweethoneybee (Jun 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Do you have a link where you read this?


It´s written in the system requirements that only Win11 Home requires a MS account:








						Windows 11 Specs and System Requirements | Microsoft
					

Find an overview of Windows 11 specs and features from Microsoft. Learn about the device specifications, versions and languages available for Windows 11



					www.microsoft.com
				




Btw: NTLite is a very good tool to create your own Win11 as soon as the final version is out at the end of this year. I´m using it for Win10 since many years and throw out everything that i don´t want from MS:


			NTLite


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 27, 2021)

trparky said:


> Yes. With a good adblocking extension and a good filter list. That and employing Windows Defender's Exploit Protection Technology that injects a special DLL into the memory space of the browser to protect it with a number of protection types such as blocking untrusted fonts, code integrity guard, control flow guard, disabling of extension points, disabling of Win32k system calls, export address filtering, mandatory ALSR, import address filtering, and others that help block known exploit types even against zero-day exploits. These protections basically harden the program in question to protect it from a whole class of exploit techniques.
> 
> You can read about these protection techniques at the Microsoft article linked below...
> Customize exploit protection | Microsoft Docs


Some people trust microsoft. Some do not.



sweethoneybee said:


> It´s written in the system requirements that only Win11 Home requires a MS account:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn't mean they won't try to enforce it.


----------



## sweethoneybee (Jun 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Doesn't mean they won't try to enforce it.


Shure, we have to wait for the final anyway...


----------



## dorsetknob (Jun 27, 2021)

As its now A Windows 11 Requierment ...........will motherboard manafactures Now include a TMP module in the box ? or Hard wire one into Motherboard..


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## Athlonite (Jun 27, 2021)

Atleast some of you can find one to buy I can't even find a single one here in Gougelandastan (New Zealand)


----------



## Mussels (Jun 27, 2021)

dorsetknob said:


> As its now A Windows 11 Requierment ...........will motherboard manafactures Now include a TMP module in the box ? or Hard wire one into Motherboard..


been hardwired at a firmware level for many years now


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 27, 2021)

dorsetknob said:


> As its now A Windows 11 Requierment ...........will motherboard manafactures Now include a TMP module in the box ? or Hard wire one into Motherboard..


Doesn't matter, AMD & Intel CPUs have a TPM integrated on die these days.

I imagine that some motherboards do not expose the option to enable it, though.


----------



## Totally (Jun 27, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Doesn't matter, AMD & Intel CPUs have a TPM integrated on die these days.
> 
> I imagine that some motherboards do not expose the option to enable it, though.



It isn't just firmware tpm, otherwise it the add-ons wouldn't be needed for x570 boards. e.g.: next to the safe boot and retry buttons


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 27, 2021)

Totally said:


> It isn't just firmware tpm, otherwise it the add-ons wouldn't be needed for x570 boards. e.g.: next to the safe boot and retry buttons


You can use the fTPM,since it's a TPM 2.0 implementation. The slot is there if you want to use a different TPM or a previous one you already had.


----------



## RedBear (Jun 27, 2021)

Totally said:


> It isn't just firmware tpm, otherwise it the add-ons wouldn't be needed for x570 boards. e.g.: next to the safe boot and retry buttons


It's not needed for Windows 11. The TPM header is there because firmware TPM is relatively more vulnerable and some people might just require the additional security of a discrete TPM module.

Still, it looks like this is indeed going to cause quite a bit of confusion.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 27, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Secure boot is not mandatory


Why do you think this?  The official compatability tool suggests otherwise.



Jism said:


> You can call it hardware based security. More about it on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module#History


We seriously need to wake up and realize hardware security is a flawed model.


----------



## Zubasa (Jun 27, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> I imagine that some motherboards do not expose the option to enable it, though.


It is the opposite, many OEM machines do not have the option to disable TPM.


----------



## totalfreq (Jun 27, 2021)

Zubasa said:


> It is the opposite, many OEM machines do not have the option to


For intel (my experience with dells mostly...but hundreds of them, the person ordering always ordered vPro and since we didnt need OOB access I would always kill it). Download intel managment and security software and enable MEBx. Reboot hit ctrl+p. For dells youll have to go through a passsword reset (just google the procedure). Then in mebx disable AMT.

When you go back in the OS it will be disabled. This will kill TPM and vPRO

This has worked on every dell Ive cone acrkss in the past 2 decades...cant sspeak for other pkatgorms though and most of the machines were precisions, latitudes and servers...not home versions like vostro.


----------



## Aleksandar_038 (Jun 27, 2021)

Seriously, people, which smartphones you are using? 

Judging by outcry against "Microsoft Espionage" via damned Microsoft account and hysteria against TPM, I assume those who commented are using some very special OS on their smartphone?

Or you all using Android and iOS, have there Facebook, proper Google and Apple account (because you have to) and now you just fall into hysteria because you can?

If Windows is so unimportant, go install Linux and stop babbling about it... For Christ sake, every second post is about "I am switching to Linux, Linux is great, Linux, Linux...", and very few about subject. 

And, finally, Microsoft will surely force TPM requirements only on Pro and upper versions, Home versions will be left without it, because it is not in their interest to slow down upgrade - quite contrary, they want as many people as possible, as fast as possible, to switch to 11...


----------



## dogwitch (Jun 27, 2021)

totalfreq said:


> For intel (my experience with dells mostly...but hundreds of them, the person ordering always ordered vPro and since we didnt need OOB access I would always kill it). Download intel managment and security software and enable MEBx. Reboot hit ctrl+p. For dells youll have to go through a passsword reset (just google the procedure). Then in mebx disable AMT.
> 
> When you go back in the OS it will be disabled. This will kill TPM and vPRO
> 
> This has worked on every dell Ive cone acrkss in the past 2 decades...cant sspeak for other pkatgorms though and most of the machines were precisions, latitudes and servers...not home versions like vostro.


bet then hp....


----------



## zlobby (Jun 27, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Why do you think this?  The official compatability tool suggests otherwise.
> 
> 
> We seriously need to wake up and realize hardware security is a flawed model.


Only dynamic root of trust has the theoretical potential to achieve good security, if done right, that is.



trparky said:


> Yes, I practice safe computing habits but for once I'd like to be able to let my guard down without everyone trying to destroy my systems while doing so.


Sorry. For as long as there are systems there will be people who will try to break in into them. Letting our guard down is not a luxury we have.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 27, 2021)

zlobby said:


> if done right


That will never happen.  It's precisely why hardware security is such a bad idea.

It's like saying "everything will be ok as long as we write a perfect, flawlwess, bug free program."

That never happens.  And while you can patch software easily, hardware is...  not as easy.


----------



## Athlonite (Jun 27, 2021)

for those with AMD platforms with supported AMD CPU's check your UEFI settings try finding the setting that chooses which TPM device to use you should see two options available 
option 1: dTPM = Discrete TPM module plugged into your mobo choosing this setting disables fTPM
option 2: fTPM = AMD's built in TPM2.0 compliant module 

If it's set to option 1 then choose option 2 save and reboot once into windows rerun the health ap and it should tell you YES instead of NO for being able to run Windows 11 

You'll also find a new Device listed under Security Devices in Device Manager like this


----------



## Deleted member 211695 (Jun 27, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> i'm curious to see how this will work for older motherboards that you can buy the TPM and add it. Because even with doing that Haswell doesn't meet the cpu requirements for windows 11.
> 
> Intel 8th gen and up.


I'm one of the few that got ahold of a TPM 2.0 20-pin for my motherboard, I ignorantly thought my 4th gen 4.3 GHz i7-4790K would be supported. I was mistaken. while I may have been able to acquire the TPM, my CPU and any intel cup below 8th gen are not supported because they feel like it.


----------



## Athlonite (Jun 27, 2021)

FoxinuhhBox said:


> I'm one of the few that got ahold of a TPM 2.0 20-pin for my motherboard, I ignorantly thought my 4th gen 4.3 GHz i7-4790K would be supported. I was mistaken. while I may have been able to acquire the TPM, my CPU and any intel cup below 8th gen are not supported because they feel like it.


Well atleast you can more than your money back for it so sort of makes up for the waste of time


----------



## Deleted member 211695 (Jun 27, 2021)

ironwolf said:


> Yup, checked the net last night for a TPM module for an ASRock H97 Performance board with a i7-4790K on it.  $40 from 3rd party on Newegg was cheapest I could find from a quick look.  Nuts!


I had to order a TPM too, but i neglected to see that our i7-4790Ks will not be supported. the same goes for any intel chip below 8th gen. dumb ass Microsoft

Have a TPM 2.0 now but still not supported 



Athlonite said:


> Well atleast you can more than your money back for it so sort of makes up for the waste of time


I guess you are right my friend. do you think i should just sell it or maybe hold out hope that the requirements will change?


----------



## Athlonite (Jun 27, 2021)

FoxinuhhBox said:


> I guess you are right my friend. do you think i should just sell it or maybe hold out hope that the requirements will change?


yeah I'd just sell it MS are not going to change their minds and back track on allowing older CPU's


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 27, 2021)

FoxinuhhBox said:


> do you think i should just sell it or maybe hold out hope that the requirements will change?


I don't think they will back down on this. If nothing else, you're not missing out much by staying on Windows 10.

EDIT: BTW, they're also putting similar restrictions on Windows 10 feature upgrades.
Windows Processor Requirements Windows 10 21H1 Supported Intel Processors | Microsoft Docs
You say you have a 4790K, so Devil's Canyon, so Haswell. If you don't get the 21H1 (or May 2021) update, it's probably because your CPU is not on the supported list.
EDIT2: Disregard the previous statement, since it seems this restriction is even older but has not applied. My old Core i3-4330 doesn't show up in those lists but I have a rig with that processor that has been updated to the 20H2 version.


----------



## VEGGIM (Jun 27, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> yeah I'd just sell it MS are not going to change their minds and back track on allowing older CPU's


Well thing is windows 11 will be uefi only and they are stripping the 32bit from it. This means any 16 bit applications you have will not work with windows 11. 32 bit applications however will. This also means any windows before windows 8 era computer if not upgraded is dead.


----------



## First Strike (Jun 27, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It is a world were we the people need to learn to protect ourselves instead of relying on government and corporations to protect us like pathetic little sheep.


That's security through ignorance, literally, if you are following updates in the field of security. For a very basic one, how the hell are you going to protect yourself from a website hosting JS-based Spectre attacks? How can you be so sure that the top website you visited has not been hacked to host such attacks?

For physical security, if you failed to protect yourself, well, the worst case scenario is getting injured or killed. I mean, criminals or bad luck can only do so many stuff in a day. World won't burn.
In the digital world, millions of devices or accounts are at stake. You are feeling safe not getting Spectre attacks, not because you are genius, but because this thing is undetectable and is (probably) patched early on, or because the criminals thought targeting less-experienced users is easier and more profitable for now.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 27, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Why do you think this? The official compatability tool suggests otherwise.


a yt video clearly demonstrating its not mandatory


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 27, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> a yt video clearly demonstrating its not mandatory


A youtube?  Of a beta?  Gotcha.  Don't count on that working forever.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 27, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> A youtube?  Of a beta?  Gotcha.  Don't count on that working forever.


Thats true but im willing to be there will be some way to give you a local acount anyway


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 27, 2021)

I might go all XP-ish over this Windows 10 installation I have going right now. Growing attached to it. Stahp, MS, please.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 27, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Thats true but im willing to be there will be some way to give you a local acount anyway


Local account is a seperate thing from making it install without the hardware root of trust it wants.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 28, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> here in Gougelandastan (New Zealand)


That just made me laugh..



First Strike said:


> how the hell are you going to protect yourself from a website hosting JS-based Spectre attacks?


Simple: NoScript(or disabling JS). However, and I KNOW I've said this in other treads, Spectre/Meltdown attack *CAN NOT SUCCEED REMOTELY*! Physical presence is REQUIRED.


First Strike said:


> How can you be so sure that the top website you visited has not been hacked to host such attacks?


I'm not going into a dissertation on how and why that is easily protected from.


First Strike said:


> For physical security, if you failed to protect yourself, well, the worst case scenario is getting injured or killed.


You seem to be taking this to an extreme NO ONE will ever face.

Protecting ones self on the internet is somewhat involved, it's not rocket science.

Quit with your sad flame baiting.


----------



## First Strike (Jun 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> However, and I KNOW I've said this in other treads, Spectre/Meltdown attack *CAN NOT SUCCEED REMOTELY*! Physical presence is REQUIRED.


Yes, they absolutely do. I'm curious where you hear the physical presence part from. Most likely you are referring some other vulnerabilities released around the same time. Not the Spectre.

Spectre only exploits CPU microarchitectures. Any code gets running on the target platform can theoretically perform the attack. The range of attack is dependent on the specifc variant and attack vectors. However your browser password is definitely within reach for JS-based Spectre attacks. That's why the very first fixes lands on Chrome and Firefox with big warning signs if you don't swallow the update.



lexluthermiester said:


> Simple: NoScript(or disabling JS).


This is a solution indeed. But that's a "Internet surfs you" solution in 2021.


Let me present my ideas better. User expertise is never the best strategy in security. It is kind of like the last line of defense while the attacks are extermely scalable and still evolving. Long gone are the days of "up a firewall and good to go", and "Spectre CAN SUCCEED REMOTELY" is the new reality. Self protection only is like using pistols against enemies from street thugs all the way up to Russian tank hoards. Normally, the tanks are fended off by the Army as it should be.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Jun 28, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> will be going to Linux anyway now, so scalpers and M$ can eat it.  damn, it feels good to be free once and for all.  Linux to the moon!



Made it one reply before the "LOL LiNuX is BeTtEr, M$ BaD" post...

Nix has its uses, but literally no one besides the other 7 daily linux users care that you suffer thru inconvenience because "M$ iS BaD"


----------



## breakfromyou (Jun 28, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> i'm curious to see how this will work for older motherboards that you can buy the TPM and add it. Because even with doing that Haswell doesn't meet the cpu requirements for windows 11.
> 
> Intel 8th gen and up.


I'd hope it would work, at least if you picked up a TPM2.0 module and have it on. Does the system meet the other requirements as well? If not, a few tweaks in BIOS might be needed.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You seem to be taking this to an extreme NO ONE will ever face.


oh yes that time i forgot to enable TPM 2.0 and i got killed
Realisticly that chip cant do anything so i 100% agree with this 
it dont need to be enabled 
Seems to just be artifical eof to me


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 28, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> yes that time i forgot to enable TPM 2.0 and i got killed



Physical Security != hardware security


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 28, 2021)

First Strike said:


> "Spectre CAN SUCCEED REMOTELY"


No, it can NOT. And even if it could, TPM and SecureBoot would do NOTHING to stop such an exploit. However, such is off-topic for this thread. Hush up about it.


----------



## Mussels (Jun 28, 2021)

I think modders will find ways to get W11 to install on older hardware very very quickly

MS having official support saves them a lot of work and effort, but sheeit, we know they wouldnt bother blocking it unofficially working - they WANT people on their OS, they just want to save on costs patching and fixing shit on old hardware

I bet they're going to use this as a new security method, to try and give W11 a better security reputation


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 28, 2021)

Mussels said:


> I think modders will find ways to get W11 to install on older hardware very very quickly


Oh yeah. There is a modding group already working on it.



Mussels said:


> MS having official support saves them a lot of work and effort, but sheeit, we know they wouldnt bother blocking it unofficially working - they WANT people on their OS


Oh, that's a good point! Not offically supported but they won't stop anyone from doing it anyway? I'd be ok with that on a personal level. I still think it's total humbuggery to even post such requirements.



Mussels said:


> they just want to save on costs patching and fixing shit on old hardware


Typical lazy-a$$ microsoft..



Mussels said:


> I bet they're going to use this as a new security method, to try and give W11 a better security reputation


Perhaps.


----------



## trparky (Jun 28, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Isaac` said:
> 
> 
> > Secure boot is not mandatory
> ...


I don't have Secure Boot enabled on my motherboard and the compatibility checking tool says that my system can be upgraded to Windows 11 just fine.

As for why I don't have Secure Boot enabled, I have no idea how to enable it on my motherboard. I tried to enable it in UEFI but it gave me some cryptic message about it not being able to be enabled and that's when I said, 'fuck it' and went on my merry way.


----------



## woom (Jun 28, 2021)

Upgraded my AMD 3800X to windows 11 all good ,also did my 4790k with Z79X MB AND A 3570K all ugraded from w10 pro.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 28, 2021)

woom said:


> Upgraded my AMD 3800X to windows 11 all good ,also did my 4790k with Z79X MB AND A 3570K all ugraded from w10 pro.


Any issues or difficulties?

BTW, Welcome to TPU!


----------



## woom (Jun 28, 2021)

Small thing at the start when i went to put w11 on the AMD pc it said i had to download and put a appraiserres,dll in the file SOURCES in the iso file on my USB stick 
and after that w11 installed fine ,dont know what the,dll file did just did it like it said.this is the link for it,https://tekdeeps.com/how-to-download-and-install-leaked-windows-11/


----------



## Athlonite (Jun 28, 2021)

trparky said:


> I don't have Secure Boot enabled on my motherboard and the compatibility checking tool says that my system can be upgraded to Windows 11 just fine.
> 
> As for why I don't have Secure Boot enabled, I have no idea how to enable it on my motherboard. I tried to enable it in UEFI but it gave me some cryptic message about it not being able to be enabled and that's when I said, 'fuck it' and went on my merry way.


there's two things you need to do to enable Secure Boot 
1: Turn it on in your UEFI/BIOS settings 
2: Make sure your Boot Drive is using a GPT partition type not the old MBR type


----------



## Easo (Jun 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Do you have a link where you read this?
> 
> 
> No, not fully. But a good firewall is a solid method of defense. Discounting the value of one is a fools errand.
> ...


What I meant is security in layers/defense in depth/call it whatever you want. Firewall is just one thing out of many. This hardware level security push by Microsoft is another (and MS are not the only ones doing it, it starts from CPU manufacturers themselves). And really, trusting users with this is pointless. Any work in customer service, not just IT, should already tell you everything you need to know how failed such an attempt would be.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jun 28, 2021)

woom said:


> Upgraded my AMD 3800X to windows 11 all good ,also did my 4790k with Z79X MB AND A 3570K all ugraded from w10 pro.


How to get beta builds


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 28, 2021)

trparky said:


> I don't have Secure Boot enabled on my motherboard and the compatibility checking tool says that my system can be upgraded to Windows 11 just fine.
> 
> As for why I don't have Secure Boot enabled, I have no idea how to enable it on my motherboard. I tried to enable it in UEFI but it gave me some cryptic message about it not being able to be enabled and that's when I said, 'fuck it' and went on my merry way.


If I turn it off I get a failure in the compatability tool.



Easo said:


> This hardware level security push by Microsoft is another (and MS are not the only ones doing it, it starts from CPU manufacturers themselves).


This is true but it's still a really flawed model.  It just gives malware an avenue to become persistent across reinstalls.


----------



## Makaveli (Jun 28, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> How to get beta builds


The insider build doesn't get released until this week or next to that is probably the leaked iso.


----------



## Arcdar (Jun 28, 2021)

It's funny and sad that MS tries to block still absolutely fine hardware "just because" .... I've got two machines up and running which don't really need
any upgrade for what they are needed for (some office work and light gaming) - one of them is a dual x79 with two 2900v1's and the other one is a
dual x99 board with two 2698v3 .....

both of them do more than just fine for gaming and work. But neither of the two boards has the option to include a TPM (1.2 or 2) module sadly ....
and even if they would, they are not on the list of supported CPU's and thus even with tpm2.0 they wouldn't be "eligible to use Windows11" ...





Also, my Microsoft Surface Book (v1.0) with it's tpm1.2 module is NOT supported for windows11 .... and as far as I read nearly 50% of all  MS "in-house-
products" are not compatible with windows 11...... yeah. awesome. That's why I got a MS "laptop" ............ to be locked out of future windows versions....
amazing.....


----------



## trparky (Jun 28, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> there's two things you need to do to enable Secure Boot
> 1: Turn it on in your UEFI/BIOS settings
> 2: Make sure your Boot Drive is using a GPT partition type not the old MBR type


I get something mentioning something about hardware keys when I try and turn it on and something called user mode in UEFI.


----------



## Athlonite (Jun 28, 2021)

trparky said:


> I get something mentioning something about hardware keys when I try and turn it on and something called user mode in UEFI.


Well that's weird could that be any more cryptic oh wait yes it could Hmmm I'd be looking at things CSM if it's on turn it off


----------



## trparky (Jun 28, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> Well that's weird could that be any more cryptic oh wait yes it could Hmmm I'd be looking at things CSM if it's on turn it off


I can't remember exactly what it said, I'd have to go back into UEFI but I have a long-running process that's going on that I can't interrupt at this time. I can't reboot the system to go into UEFI right now. Maybe I'll make a thread in the Motherboard forum about this when I can.


----------



## totalfreq (Jun 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That just made me laugh..
> 
> 
> Simple: NoScript(or disabling JS). However, and I KNOW I've said this in other treads, Spectre/Meltdown attack *CAN NOT SUCCEED REMOTELY*! Physical presence is REQUIRED.
> ...


Spectre may require local access but there are ways to remotely access the MEBx. And do so proir to bios password or bitlocker.

Im not going to outline all the details as it is still a wide spread problem. A critical update went out Sept 2020 patching the AMT/ISM system that you should apply immediately if you have not. But most OEMs still use the default MEBx password, and if PXE boot, AMT with Wifi, windows remote management or a whole slew of other settingsl could leave your MEBx exposed and remotely accessible. Furthermore a lot of OEMs havnt changed the MEBx password from default, or they have a universal password that can found easily on a google search.

Im not saying that every machjne is vulnerable, but alk ot takes is one of the above to be enabled and not secured properly and MEBx will be accessible remotely, bypassing Bios password lock, bitlocker, etc.

Im personally going to clip one tpm pin at a time (i think there are 20) to see which one windiws accepts as active/installed, but then doesnt actually work


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 28, 2021)

Easo said:


> What I meant is security in layers/defense in depth/call it whatever you want. Firewall is just one thing out of many. This hardware level security push by Microsoft is another (and MS are not the only ones doing it, it starts from CPU manufacturers themselves). And really, trusting users with this is pointless. Any work in customer service, not just IT, should already tell you everything you need to know how failed such an attempt would be.


There are so many things wrong with that statement...



Makaveli said:


> The insider build doesn't get released until this week or next to that is probably the leaked iso.


It's out now apparently..


----------



## totalfreq (Jun 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> There are so many things wrong with that statement...
> 
> 
> It's out now apparently..


Yep win 11 preview is available. Its not yet in my action pack but build 22000.51 is available as a preview.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 28, 2021)

totalfreq said:


> Yep win 11 preview is available. Its not yet in my action pack but build 22000.51 is available as a preview.


Someone reviewed it:








Thanks to @rk3066 for the link over in the GN thread..


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 29, 2021)

Update on Windows 11 minimum system requirements
					

Windows Insiders,  Today we’re releasing our first Insider build for Windows 11, and we’re looking forward to the insight that comes from you installing and using on a variety of your PCs. Last week’s




					blogs.windows.com
				



Microsoft's blog post about the requirements.

Main takeaways (may read like PR, take what you will from this):

On TPM, SecureBoot, etc.:


> Windows 11 raises the bar for security by requiring hardware that can enable protections like Windows Hello, Device Encryption, virtualization-based security (VBS), hypervisor-protected code integrity (HVCI) and Secure Boot. The combination of these features has been shown to reduce malware by 60% on tested devices. To meet the principle, all Windows 11 supported CPUs have an embedded TPM, support secure boot, and support VBS and specific VBS capabilities.



On their decision of supporting only 8th gen Intel and Zen+ AMD CPUs and newer:


> Devices upgraded to Windows 11 will be in a supported and reliable state. By choosing CPUs that have adopted the new Windows Driver model and are supported by our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.


They might review that decision to support the previous generation to those (no promises though)


> *As we release to Windows Insiders and partner with our OEMs, we will test to identify devices running on Intel 7th generation and AMD Zen 1 that may meet our principles. We’re committed to sharing updates with you on the results of our testing over time, as well as sharing additional technical blogs.*



Acknowledging their PC Health check app was kinda a confusing mess:


> the PC Health Check app was intended to help people check if their current Windows 10 PC could upgrade to Windows 11. Based on the feedback so far, we acknowledge that it was not fully prepared to share the level of detail or accuracy you expected from us on why a Windows 10 PC doesn’t meet upgrade requirements. We are temporarily removing the app so that our teams can address the feedback. We will get it back online in preparation for general availability this fall. In the meantime, you can visit our minimum system requirements page here to learn more.


----------



## Makaveli (Jun 29, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Someone reviewed it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


review here also.









						Windows 11 Preview Hands-On: Much Ado About Menus
					

Windows 11 looks fresh, but often prioritizes form over function.




					www.tomshardware.com


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 29, 2021)

trsttte said:


> this is hilarious
> 
> TPM modules are not hard to manufacture and their scarcity is dictated mostly by their uselessness so these scalpers will most likely only help retailers clear out old junk. specially when microsoft walks this back as they surely will
> 
> I honestly find this super amusing


The same thing could be said about desktop webcams 18 months ago. 
Nobody had a need to buy one until they suddenly did, and it took 6 months of scalping before supply overtook demand to bring the prices down again.


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 29, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> The same thing could be said about desktop webcams 18 months ago.
> Nobody had a need to buy one until they suddenly did, and it took 6 months of scalping before supply overtook demand to bring the prices down again.


Not like it matters much in this case. With TPM being built in CPUs, there's no need to get a discrete one.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 29, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Not like it matters much in this case. With TPM being built in CPUs, there's no need to get a discrete one.


I think there are going to be a bunch of people using CPUs that predate integrated TPM. You only have to look at how many people are still on 7 and even XP still has significant marketshare despite being out of support for 12 years at this point.


----------



## windwhirl (Jun 29, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> I think there are going to be a bunch of people using CPUs that predate integrated TPM.


Nah, if Microsoft holds their position, all the supported CPUs have a TPM integrated.
Actually, I'm gonna check on that.

Well, after a while of searching, it's not completely clear, but it seems Intel's PTT (which is a TPM implementation) was introduced in some Haswell chips, and later brought into the rest of their CPUs in their sixth generation (so Skylake). Though others say that it was introduced in all Haswell and later chips, so it's not completely sure.

Funny thing, though, Intel Macs will not be able to dual boot to Windows 11, as they do not support TPM.


----------



## Adam Krazispeed (Jun 30, 2021)

opteron said:


> Greedy Scalpers are the bane of humanity...


you got that right... im sick of the scalpers and MS can go and die for all i care.. GAMING IS GOING TO HELL ON PC..  im about done thanks to scalpers ( mainly on CPUs and Graphics Cards. Ram and SSDs (nvme especially) the good ones

but so does first gen 1000 series ryzen and Threadripper, A,B,&X 300 + X399 Threadripper 1st gen ryzen has TPM2.0 because iv always turned it on in the bios, so wtf Zen1 Unsupported>> WHY MS?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 30, 2021)

Adam Krazispeed said:


> you got that right... im sick of the scalpers, and MS can go and die for all i care.. GAMING IS GOING TO HELL ON PC..  im about done thanks to scalpers ( mainly on CPUs and Graphics Cards. Ram and SSDs (nvme especially) the good ones
> 
> but so does first gen 1000 series ryzen and Threadripper, A,B,&X 300 + X399 Threadripper 1st gen ryzen has TPM2.0 because iv always turned it on in the bios, so wtf Zen1 Unsupported>> WHY MS?


We feel your frustration. You're not alone. However, your missing something. It's called customizing your installation media. It's been a thing for decades, works on 11 now and will be a thing when 11 is released. The enthusiast & power user community will NOT be tolerating microsoft's nonsense. I've been customizing Windows installs since XP. Look into it.

BTW, folks, MJD just reviewed the newest build, 22000.51. Looks interesting;


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 30, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Funny thing, though, Intel Macs will not be able to dual boot to Windows 11, as they do not support TPM.


That's okay, Windows 11 looks like an OSX clone so there's no point in dual-booting any more....
/s


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 30, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> That's okay, Windows 11 looks like an OSX clone so there's no point in dual-booting any more....
> /s


Try using it.


----------



## Mussels (Jun 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Try using it.


Just did. Seems like W10, but easier on the eyes.
Only thing i dislike is that i gotta right click the windows button for task manager, instead of the task bar


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Try using it.


I have. Hence the /s
It's not really anything like OSX, just that first impressions, colourscheme and centralised dock are such blatant copies


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Only thing i dislike is that i gotta right click the windows button for task manager, instead of the task bar


That one doesn't bother me. It's just moved. I usually call up the task manager with CTRL+SHFT+ESC anyway...


----------



## Samdbugman (Jun 30, 2021)

my computer is long in the tooth but still runs games quite well at 1080 and most games at 1440 with good frame rates.
i will not be able to rum windows 11 even with the TPM module as my processor is too old.
i am planning to build another computer when the chip shortage is over and prices come down but that may some time from now, lol
the $10 TPM module for my is now $100 on ebay and i refuse to pay that price as i will more likey than not to ever use.
and by the way i could care less if microsoft sends my on line activity to the government, as the most damning thing will be the porn sites i check out and the sites like tech power up.


----------



## Mussels (Jun 30, 2021)

Samdbugman said:


> my computer is long in the tooth but still runs games quite well at 1080 and most games at 1440 with good frame rates.
> i will not be able to rum windows 11 even with the TPM module as my processor is too old.
> i am planning to build another computer when the chip shortage is over and prices come down but that may some time from now, lol
> the $10 TPM module for my is now $100 on ebay and i refuse to pay that price as i will more likey than not to ever use.
> and by the way i could care less if microsoft sends my on line activity to the government, as the most damning thing will be the porn sites i check out and the sites like tech power up.


I mean... you can bypass the TPM thing. You can see how like 5 posts ago.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 30, 2021)

Mussels said:


> you can bypass the TPM thing.


UEFI and SecureBoot as well. All three of those limitations are completely artificial.


----------



## Hiner101 (Jun 30, 2021)

Adam Krazispeed said:


> you got that right... im sick of the scalpers and MS can go and die for all i care.. GAMING IS GOING TO HELL ON PC..  im about done thanks to scalpers ( mainly on CPUs and Graphics Cards. Ram and SSDs (nvme especially) the good ones
> 
> but so does first gen 1000 series ryzen and Threadripper, A,B,&X 300 + X399 Threadripper 1st gen ryzen has TPM2.0 because iv always turned it on in the bios, so wtf Zen1 Unsupported>> WHY MS?


You are not alone.

Incidentally since you have a Ryzen 1st Gen. Threadripper or maybe a Ryzen (1800x/1700x/1xxx)? If you have a Ryzen on your system, in windows 10, after enabling the fTPM in the BIOS motherboard, so not external module, which version of TPM is shown to you in Windows 10 security? 2.0? I would be interested to have a confirmation that TPM 2.0 is indicated. Thank you

According their blog statement "we will test to identify...AMD Zen 1 that may meet our principles". What do they want to test again? They already identified that Zen1 "meet their principles" because in their Windows 11 CPU compatibility list every Ryzen 2000 and every Ryzen APU 3000 are Zen 1!! they don't know the difference, or pretend they don't know it, between Zen1/Zen2 with Gen1/Gen2.

Remove all these limits that are so useless in terms of safety! No computer will ever be safe if the person using it does not seek him to use it "safely". Worse, in millions of excluded PCs will be used, to allow installation, .iso (retrieved "wherever they are") that will be patched to remove these limits . Certainly a nice improvement to general safety.

In any case, more security threats will surely come in the following years. If tomorrow a new threat will be discovered  which could affect a CPU, chipset, or other connected devices (among other things the TPM 2.0 has already been bypassed by hackers) what they do? with subsequent windows yearly update, they will remove these devices from the compatibility list? It is ridiculous and also demonstrates the absurdity of the thing. Everything can be added to improve security, well but optional not mandatory...


----------



## Athlonite (Jul 1, 2021)

@Hiner101 all of the Ryzen 1xxx series and Threadripper 1xxx have TPM2.0 built in to them as for zen 2 and or 3 Ryzen 2xxx/3xxx cpu's well I do have TPM enabled on my Ryzen 7 3700X and it says TPM2.0  in the MS Security ap


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> UEFI and SecureBoot as well. All three of those limitations are completely artificial.


Hi,
Only if one manipulates the iso otherwise it's a hard stop.


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## Mussels (Jul 2, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Only if one manipulates the iso otherwise it's a hard stop.


Yeah, but its stupidly easy to remove. You can slap a single file from the W11 ISO onto a W10 USB, and bam: unlocked W11 installer, with all legit MS files


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 2, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Yeah, but its stupidly easy to remove. You can slap a single file from the W11 ISO onto a W10 USB, and bam: unlocked W11 installer, with all legit MS files


And even if ms finds a way to put a stop to that, the community of modders WILL find a way around these dumbass limitations. Work is already underway.


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## plastiscɧ (Jul 3, 2021)

bois instead of complaining just do some research!
*or just ask a friendly German:

*

we have bypassed it


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## windwhirl (Jul 3, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> bois instead of complaining just do some research!
> *or just ask a friendly German:
> 
> *
> ...


Yes, that has already been known for a week.

Besides, people would rather not have to bother bypassing it


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## plastiscɧ (Jul 3, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Yes, that has already been known for a week.
> 
> Besides, people would rather not have to bother bypassing it


true!
but the german one is just 1 registry entry additional to the iso data. the rest is untouched. for me it would mean; not the real big deal if u have older hardware.
nothing cheesy to put in and need to delete. just switch a "1" to a "0". then cleaninstall

many ways leading to rome.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 3, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> bois instead of complaining just do some research!
> *or just ask a friendly German:
> 
> *
> ...


My German is a bit rusty. Care to translate or show the actual file and entry to that file modified?


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## plastiscɧ (Jul 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> My German is a bit rusty. Care to translate or show the actual file and entry to that file modified?


of course not! i was unsure if i am allowed to post those "mechanics" here in the forum
but i first ask for permission. if not i'll send u a link to my fellas site and u need to figure out on your own. but i assure this is not that hard then.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 3, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> of course not! i was unsure if i am allowed to post those "mechanics" here in the forum
> but i first ask for permission. if not i'll send u a link to my fellas site and u need to figure out on your own. but i assure this is not that hard then.


You are and please do. Windows Tweaks are not illegal, nor against forum policy. They are, in fact, encouraged as long as doing so does not promote piracy. Windows installer tweaks are welcome.


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## plastiscɧ (Jul 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You are and please do. Windows Tweaks are not illegal, nor against forum policy. They are, in fact, encouraged as long as doing so does not promote piracy. Windows installer tweaks are welcome.


alright then!
i will work on it. gimmie some time


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Jul 3, 2021)

Oh no Classic shell don't override the original one


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 3, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Oh no Classic shell don't override the original one  View attachment 206465


Give them time. The OpenShell project will very likely have something ready for final release. Remember, 11 is still in alpha.


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## plastiscɧ (Jul 3, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Oh no Classic shell don't override the original one  View attachment 206465



Activate the old start menu in the registry
Enter Windows key + R regedit and start it
Go to the path:

*HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced*

In the right part of the window a right click -> New -> Create new DWORD value (32-bit) with the name

* Start_ShowClassicMode*

A double click on Start_ShowClassicMode

Value = 0 The new start menu is shown
Value = 1 The old Windows 10 Start menu is displayed.
Now either press Ctrl + Shift + ESC key and restart explorer.exe once. The window will be dark for a short time and the old start menu is back. Or you can simply restart the program.

If you want to save it as a reg key: Just copy it into a text file and save it. Then rename from New Textfile.txt to Startmenu.reg


*Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced]

"Start_ShowClassicMode"=dword:00000001

*




lexluthermiester said:


> You are and please do. Windows Tweaks are not illegal, nor against forum policy. They are, in fact, encouraged as long as doing so does not promote piracy. Windows installer tweaks are welcome.


done!









						Installing Windows 11 without TPM 2.0 and Secure Boot -- (registry Bypass)
					

Windows 11 also without TPM 2.0 and Secure Boot install   Microsoft has increased the hardware system requirements for Windows 11. If you want to reinstall Windows 11, then TPM 2.0 and also SecureBoot is now one of the hardware requirements.  However, you can also install Windows 11 without...




					www.techpowerup.com
				






show that scalpers now your FINGER...


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## Mussels (Jul 4, 2021)

The only thing not allowed here is direct piracy discussion, such as activation methods, links to cracks and so on

Tweaks hacks and modding the OS? hit us allllll day.


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## Athlonite (Jul 4, 2021)

I can understand why MS are saying 8th gen Intel CPU's and above as it comes down to security ie: Intel built spectre and Meltdown and Zombieload mitigations into the hardware whereas previous gens relied on software mitigations which slowed them down but as for AMD's Ryzen 1xxx 2xxx and 3xxx CPU's I'm not so sure did AMD build in mitigations to these CPU's I pretty sure Ryzen 1xxx CPU don't have it built in not so sure about 2xxx and 3xxx but who really cares most of us will just hack it to run on the hardware we have and not give a shit about what or why MS have said no to it


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 4, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> and above as it comes down to security ie: Intel built spectre and Meltdown and Zombieload mitigations into the hardware whereas previous gens relied on software mitigations which slowed them down


Total rubbish. Spectre/Meltdown/Zombieland/etc/etc all REQUIRE physical access to the system at some point in the exploitation stage of an attack and then are so difficult to pull off that it's a wasted effort on the general populace. Additionally, for Intel CPU's turning off hyperthreading solves the problem is one simple step without affecting IPC. While it's true that you loose some performance from disabling hyperthreading, most people wouldn't notice and doing so has no effect on IO performance that the software mitigations do.



Athlonite said:


> but who really cares most of us will just hack it to run on the hardware we have and not give a shit about what or why MS have said no to it


This, yes!


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## fb020997 (Jul 4, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Just did. Seems like W10, but easier on the eyes.
> Only thing i dislike is that i gotta right click the windows button for task manager, instead of the task bar


I’ve installed it through in my XPS15 laptop. The first thing I did was reverting the start to the left, and the second was reverting to the good ol’ 10 start menu via regedit.
And yes, it’s an awful thing that I can’t access the task manager from anywhere in the task bar. I usually do it in the middle of it.
Apart from that (and half of it that isn’t translated to Italian, and that the upper part of any window is white even if I change the colour and enable it I like it, and it runs great. The settings are a bit more logical to navigate, more iPadOS-like (good thing), but some settings are in different places (bad thing). 
The 7300HQ in the lappy isn’t technically supported, but it isn’t a problem for now.


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## windwhirl (Jul 4, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> I can understand why MS are saying 8th gen Intel CPU's and above as it comes down to security ie: Intel built spectre and Meltdown and Zombieload mitigations into the hardware whereas previous gens relied on software mitigations which slowed them down but as for AMD's Ryzen 1xxx 2xxx and 3xxx CPU's I'm not so sure did AMD build in mitigations to these CPU's I pretty sure Ryzen 1xxx CPU don't have it built in not so sure about 2xxx and 3xxx but who really cares most of us will just hack it to run on the hardware we have and not give a shit about what or why MS have said no to it


According to Microsoft, it comes down to a driver model, not mitigations. I'll let someone else research that, it's way out of my knowledge.


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## Mussels (Jul 5, 2021)

fb020997 said:


> I’ve installed it through in my XPS15 laptop. The first thing I did was reverting the start to the left, and the second was reverting to the good ol’ 10 start menu via regedit.
> And yes, it’s an awful thing that I can’t access the task manager from anywhere in the task bar. I usually do it in the middle of it.
> Apart from that (and half of it that isn’t translated to Italian, and that the upper part of any window is white even if I change the colour and enable it I like it, and it runs great. The settings are a bit more logical to navigate, more iPadOS-like (good thing), but some settings are in different places (bad thing).
> The 7300HQ in the lappy isn’t technically supported, but it isn’t a problem for now.


task manager annoys me for sure, i just moved to the keyboard shortcut of ctrl-shift-esc


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## plastiscɧ (Jul 5, 2021)

Mussels said:


> task manager annoys me for sure, i just moved to the keyboard shortcut of ctrl-shift-esc


right click create --- new -- shortcut --- insert_ *taskmgr.exe* --- follow the instuctions.
this shortcut can be placed nearly everywhere. even on multiple places. symbols can be changed to invisble pics

maybe its more comfortable for u-


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## Hiner101 (Jul 5, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> I can understand why MS are saying 8th gen Intel CPU's and above as it comes down to security ie: Intel built spectre and Meltdown and Zombieload mitigations into the hardware whereas previous gens relied on software mitigations which slowed them down but as for AMD's Ryzen 1xxx 2xxx and 3xxx CPU's I'm not so sure did AMD build in mitigations to these CPU's I pretty sure Ryzen 1xxx CPU don't have it built in not so sure about 2xxx and 3xxx but who really cares most of us will just hack it to run on the hardware we have and not give a shit about what or why MS have said no to it


But they are wrong. Intel for example have added hardware and firmware mitigations regarding Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities only to its Coffee Lake-R processors and onwards (announced on Oct 2018). So *Intel 8th Gen* KabyLake-R processors that are on the win11 compatibility list *must be excluded as well* (ex. i5-8350U).


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## windwhirl (Jul 5, 2021)

Hiner101 said:


> But they are wrong. Intel for example have added hardware and firmware mitigations regarding Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities only to its Coffee Lake-R processors and onwards (announced on Oct 2018). So *Intel 8th Gen* KabyLake-R processors that are on the win11 compatibility list *must be excluded as well* (ex. i5-8350U).


The mitigations have nothing to do with it. Driver model is the reason mentioned by Microsoft.


> *Reliability.* Devices upgraded to Windows 11 will be in a supported and reliable state. By choosing CPUs that have adopted the new Windows Driver model and are supported by our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.


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## ThrashZone (Jul 5, 2021)

Hi,
Oc'ing tends to lead to crashes anyone ever tell MS that lol it's for fun, reported driver has little to do with it but they whack a driver listed as the cause in a silly bsod report real issue is user created


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## windwhirl (Jul 5, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Oc'ing tends to lead to crashes anyone ever tell MS that lol it's for fun, reported driver has little to do with it but they whack a driver listed as the cause in a silly bsod report real issue is user created


I doubt Microsoft isn't aware. The engineers are not idiots, unlike what some people assume. And not making a BSOD report when a BSOD happens because you guess that it was caused by overclock will just lead to less actually important reports being created and sent to MS. More trouble down the line.

Also


> our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.



Overclockers and a great deal of DIYers and tinkerers not included in that statement.


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## ThrashZone (Jul 5, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> I doubt Microsoft isn't aware. The engineers are not idiots, unlike what some people assume. And not making a BSOD report when a BSOD happens because you guess that it was caused by overclock will just lead to less actually important reports being created and sent to MS. More trouble down the line.
> 
> Also
> 
> ...


Hi,
Yeah doesn't stop the driver police but you give the ms engineers way too much credit lol


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## Hiner101 (Jul 5, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> The mitigations have nothing to do with it. Driver model is the reason mentioned by Microsoft.



I think it can be said that Ryzen 1xxxX and Ryzen APU 2xxxG are supported and in reliable state at the moment. How could it be otherwise, since they are all part of the "same" Zen platform for AM4 and they were "born" with and for windows 10. Also *all* Rzyen motherboard chipsets obviously have recent drivers (at the moment Jun 2021). Again...same platform. Whether they decided to exclude them through an arbitrary decision is another matter. They are trying to say anything to justify the fact that it is an arbitrary decision made by them to try to push the replacement of PCs that are only older than two or three years.

Also require a new windows driver model for a CPU? Probably is more common for other devices or for example the WDDM of the GPUs recently updated to 2.7 on Win10 2004 and now 3.0 aanounced. In any case even for this, AMD's Ryzen APUs GPU are also perfectly supported with very recent drivers, so there will be no problems, as long as they don't try to create the problem themselves...

Also "our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience". I don't know if I have to laugh or cry. I have an OEM PC of a reputable brand, bought some months ago, naturally with a CPU on their win11 list, no chance of having the TPM enabled due to an error by the manufacturer.


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## windwhirl (Jul 5, 2021)

Hiner101 said:


> I think it can be said that Ryzen 1xxxX and Ryzen APU 2xxxG are supported and in reliable state at the moment. How could it be otherwise, since they are all part of the "same" Zen platform for AM4 and they were "born" with and for windows 10. Also *all* Rzyen motherboard chipsets obviously have recent drivers (at the moment Jun 2021). Again...same platform


Agreed so far. Why original Zen was excluded is not clear (I understand leaving FX and everything else before it behind, if anything), same with Intel's side.



Hiner101 said:


> Whether they decided to exclude them through an arbitrary decision is another matter. They are trying to say anything to justify the fact that it is an arbitrary decision made by them to try to push the replacement of PCs that are only older than two or three years.



That might be reading too much. Push for the replacement of PCs? Honestly, why exactly are people so interested into moving to Windows 11? It's not for new features for sure. Because so far, the only things worth talking about would be DirectStorage (which so far is not available, and when it is I'd rather see a third-party review rather than MS' numbers), which already requires a somewhat high end PC, and the Android stuff (which is the most unpredictable due to being based on Amazon's store and Android apps themselves rarely if ever being developed to run on desktop-live environments). So, yeah, realistically, you're not missing much by staying with Windows 10 so far.



Hiner101 said:


> Also require a new windows driver model for a CPU? Probably is more common for other devices or for example the WDDM of the GPUs recently updated to 2.7 on Win10 2004 and now 3.0 aanounced. In any case even for this, AMD's Ryzen APUs GPU are also perfectly supported with very recent drivers, so there will be no problems, as long as they don't try to create the problem themselves...


I do not know if AMD/Intel are using the standard WDM (which is a possibility, but it's been criticized for being extremely complex) or if they're using KMDF (which is considered far easier) for their CPU drivers. Of WDM I have not found a changelog of sorts, but KDMF has been updated almost with every Windows version. Versions 1.31 (introduced with Windows 10 2004) and 1.33 (expected to be introduced with Server 2022, which makes me think it will also be introduced with Windows 11) add certain power management functionality. I guess Microsoft is pushing for that?












						KMDF Version History - Windows drivers
					

This topic lists versions of Kernel-Mode Driver Framework (KMDF), the corresponding versions of the Windows operating system, and the changes made in each release.



					docs.microsoft.com
				













I know at least AMD has already started using Directed Power Management Framework. It's cited in their release notes for their AMDPSP driver.








Hiner101 said:


> Also "our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience". I don't know if I have to laugh or cry. I have an OEM PC of a reputable brand, bought some months ago, naturally with a CPU on their win11 list, no chance of having the TPM enabled due to an error by the manufacturer.


Well, TPM not being able to be enabled because the OEM did not include a switch in UEFI or whatever isn't exactly a crash. Though it's rather annoying and stupid on the OEM's part.


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## Hiner101 (Jul 5, 2021)

It's not a problem to "want" to install windows 11, but not to "be able" to do it. This is a different thing.

I think it can be shared that after all that has been said in these days post announcement one thing is clear. The replacement of a PC in the future will be dictated not so much by its general performance, as in principle it has been until today, but by the lack of a functionality or worse by a version of it. You know how many functionalities, instructions, fixes, revisions of these,etc. can there be in a system and its components? Or speaking of security, how many new security threats may be discovered in the coming years?..that's it.

So everyone involved in this "game" will be able to say and do what they want. I don't mean that it's not already so, but in the future It will be even worse.

Someone announce the XYZ revision of the XYZ functionality or the fix for a new security threat recently discovered and also there will be an announcement that the new outgoing operating system will work (or install as in this case) only if these latest ones are present on the components of the PC for "the good of all mankind".

Moreover applying this reasoning, everything changes from now.

Considering what happened this time (and also what I have reported of OEM systems that don't comply even with very recent hardware) who will buy again a new pc (or components), even if very recent, in the last year before a "probably" new OS announcement? It's not better to be sure that you know what it will take.
Or also who will buy the first available products (I mean something as an entire platform...) for the new OS (in this case win11)? They are probably the first one which will be excluded from let's say a future windows 12 around five years later, as it is now for the Skylake/Ryzen 1st (now the situations is worse, the AMD Ryzen APU 1st zen is of mid-2018). The purchase market will become such a figure:
NEW OS_/\_NEW OS_/\_  (forgive the drawing)

I hope it's clear what I want to say.


----------



## Athlonite (Jul 7, 2021)

Ah beat me to it I was just going to throw this here 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors


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## Mussels (Jul 8, 2021)

Hiner101 said:


> It's not a problem to "want" to install windows 11, but not to "be able" to do it. This is a different thing.
> 
> I think it can be shared that after all that has been said in these days post announcement one thing is clear. The replacement of a PC in the future will be dictated not so much by its general performance, as in principle it has been until today, but by the lack of a functionality or worse by a version of it. You know how many functionalities, instructions, fixes, revisions of these,etc. can there be in a system and its components? Or speaking of security, how many new security threats may be discovered in the coming years?..that's it.
> 
> ...


the limits they put in are so easily bypassed i could talk my mother through it - meaning all these angry rants are from people who never read past the headline

MS has rolled back the limits, and then people downright removed them within 24 hours of finding out they existed


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## R-T-B (Jul 8, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> The mitigations have nothing to do with it. Driver model is the reason mentioned by Microsoft.


CPUs don't use drivers, they run them.  The most driver like thing they load is microcode.

I smell BS.


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## windwhirl (Jul 8, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> CPUs don't use drivers, they run them.  The most driver like thing they load is microcode.
> 
> I smell BS.


Do tell then why they show up in Device Manager with their own driver file.

EDIT: Yes, I agree that at least for most if not all of the core functionality of a CPU there's no driver needed. The extra functionality of this driver, if there's any, is unknown to me, though. And maybe the reason why Microsoft is asking for specific processor generations as a minimum.


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## R-T-B (Jul 8, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Do tell then why they show up in Device Manager with their own driver file.


It's a generic probe driver for the brand features written by microsoft.  All it does is "poke" the cpu to find out what ISA commands it supports.


----------

