# Unsatisfactory Mayhems Experience (Input Requested)



## theonedub (Mar 23, 2014)

First, thank you in advance for taking the time to read through this entire post. Its long, but I wanted to be detailed and make sure to paint the entire picture as best I can 

My PC has been running Mayhem's Pastel Coolant since November 2013. Mayhem's states this coolant should be good for as long as a 2 year cycle, but my coolant started having issues less than a month running in the loop- the coolant began changing color from bright yellow to orange juice orange. Since Mayhems has an online forum over @OCN, I decided to post and see what support they could offer.







Mayhems initial reply advised me that the color change must be because the radiator must have been contaminated and affected the pH of the system. They took the opportunity to pitch a new cleaning system they are selling to 'help' combat the problem.






The sensitivity to pH is news to me- nothing on the packaging mentioned pH levels. This PC was what I would call 'professionally' built and I made sure to flush the system multiple times according to the instructions on the bottle. So the contamination path really didn't seem to fit my particular case.  So I let him know:






Now Mayhems gets a little condescending with his next reply:






I replied anyway, keeping it professional:






A week of silence ensued, so I repost my message and get a reply:






First off, I have no idea what he means by answering my own questions. I am answering the exact question he asked me. Second, he is really leaning towards blaming pH and pitching this new cleaning product, but again, pH is never mentioned as having such a significant impact on the fluid. I feel that if the coolant is that sensitive to pH, they should say so in their literature.

I lay out my position in full in my next reply as well as my request for a dye not as sensitive to pH:





Here is his 'professional' reply:






*Passive aggressive? Check. Condescending? Double Check. Generally being an asshole? Absolutely. *

So I ask you guys: Am I out of line here? Are the replies from Mayhems what you as potential customers would call fair and professional? Let me know.

*Thanks!
*

*TLDR-*
-Used Mayhems Pastels Coolant which changed colors in less than a month
-Went to speak with Mayhem rep @OCN and was told either user error or someone else is at fault.
-Eventually the Mayhem rep denied me any support and told me to learn my hobby better.


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## Norton (Mar 23, 2014)

I've seen behavior like this from salespeople in other industries- wondering if this is taught at some workshop or something- the attitude seemed pretty excessive from his side 

Definitely a different experience than I got from Bryan at Swiftech- he was 100% professional, helpful, and courteous when he helped me resolve my H220 pump issue.

P.S> pH strips and cheap meters suck for accuracy....


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## Solaris17 (Mar 23, 2014)

This guy is a dickhead and needs to stand behind his product. Sure PH can affect anything in a closed system but you should inform customers thast slight discoloration may result over time or something. Instead he has no interest in helping you and treats you in a ver unprofessional manner. Honestly thats why I avoid people like this. I have seen many 1 man shows that run their "business" on forums of this nature and all I can say is over the years not one of them is still around. I would honestly keep going with what is good and grab some stuff from DD, EK etc trusted places.

Its a nickel more for the good stuff but stops shit like this.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 23, 2014)

Honestly, flushing the loop with just distilled water isn't enough here, I have to somewhat agree with the Mayhems' rep here.

Whenever I setup a new loop, or even just add a new part to an existing loop. I always flush with distilled vinegar, then distilled water 2-3 times.  The distilled vinegar is especially important if the loop has been filled, then drained and left empty for any period of time(like pre-tested then shipped empty) of if I'm using a 2nd hand radiator.  The reason for this is the copper in the rad will "patina".  Once copper is exposed to water, and then air, it will form an oxide layer.  Simply flushing with water will not remove this oxide layer.  However the distilled vinegar will.  And because the coolant in your system wasn't PH neutral, the coolant is what started to eat away at the oxide layer, and the contaminates from the oxide layer is what is actually changing the color of the coolant.

But at the same time you are right too, they should be more clear in the instructions for how to properly flush out the loop prior to using the product.  And he definitely was being someone of an ass by the end of the conversation.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Mar 23, 2014)

... I don't know what to say here.

Newtekie1 has a point.  Copper does oxidize rather quickly when exposed to an oxygen deprivation cell.  At the same time, this isn't a pH problem, so much as a contamination problem.  The liquid is either partially or very reactive to copper salts, and the salts have a high solubility.  I'd say that is a big problem, as no matter if the radiator was 100% clean prior to use these salts would eventually build-up.  The question of whether this would be in a week, or six months, should not matter.

Honestly, this guy is responding to a valid long term concern by citing a short term problem and getting defensive.  I'd assume nothing more from them, and choose a new group to supply your coolant.  There isn't a shortage of people looking to sell you better products.


As an aside, this dude seems to be an idiot.  Giving somebody phosphoric acid, in order to clean a PC water loop, is insanely stupid.  That type of pH is dangerous in a lab setting, let alone in an enclosed PC case.  When the products you sell need to have a hazardous chemical label, but you don't take the time to explain proper usage, you deserve the law suit you're going to receive.



Edit:
Never mind, this dude is a huge idiot.  The phosphoric acid, once dillute, is supposedly rated at 2.2 pH.  He then indicates to run this for 1-2 hours, and then to pour it down the drain.  Copper salts, and very low pH material down the drain is a big no-no.  That'll screw up a septic system fast, let alone the problems it'll cause for you municipal waste water disposal.


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## FX-GMC (Mar 23, 2014)

Ridiculous on his part.

I know who I won't be doing business with (if I ever get the time to do a loop.)


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## the54thvoid (Mar 23, 2014)

Overpriced crap anyhow.  

Just stick to the purest coolant you can (add anti-corrosives if you must) and run it through coloured (and/or UV) tubing.

Dye might look great but it also looks like a flat colour.  The same result is obtained through tubing without the added problem of dyes and ignorant and patronising reps.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Mar 23, 2014)

This is why I stick with plain ol distilled water and colored tubing.


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## brandonwh64 (Mar 24, 2014)

Those so called coolants are shit. Just use distilled water


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## theonedub (Mar 24, 2014)

I appreciate all the replies this far, great to know I'm not the only one thinking he has an attitude problem.

I'd like to know if anyone had maybe used Mayhems product before with similar results?

I'm running distilled now and really like it. No dyes or coolant in my plans anymore, that's for sure.


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## RCoon (Mar 24, 2014)

the54thvoid said:


> Overpriced crap anyhow


 
Yep. Never understood why people pay that much $$$ per litre of coloured liquid. Distilled water from the local car garage is cheaper and arguably a better coolant anyway. Besides the fact the rep is entirely wrong on the pH thing, it's actually more of a contaminent thing. He's right about certain rad manufacturers not cleaning their rads properly, but the pH nonsense is an impressive straw-man act from them. Mayhems has always been for looks and not function anyway. I've only ever used pastel white coolant and distilled water.
Even my white coolant changed colour after a few months, and my loop had been flushed and biocided about 6 times within a year. These pastel coolants all seem to have issues.


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## Tatty_One (Mar 24, 2014)

Whether the company's advice is good or bad is irrelivant when they adopt this kind of defensive/offensive attitude to customers and support, sadly support threads on well known tech sites seems to be going that way in some cases, to be honest too may of them are not support threads anymore, just marketing gimmicks otherwise why would they get so defensive and unpleasant, you only need to look at one or two of ours to see that they started all pleasant and happy, then as soon as one or two have some issues they get nasty, personally I would keep on to them publically, staying professional, you may not get a resolution to your issues but at least you will show them for what they are..... good luck and hope it works out for you!


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## Sinzia (Mar 24, 2014)

He also dicked around with TTL on his personal build, the black coolant turned more like chocolate brown after I think a month.

Might have been his orca build.


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## RCoon (Mar 24, 2014)

Tatty_One said:


> you only need to look at one or two of ours to see that they started all pleasant and happy, then as soon as one or two have some issues they get nasty


 
While I kinda agree with that, and there's the extremely obvious example of that, I think most of our reps have been pretty great. The NZXT and Corsair reps on TPU are probably some of the best I've had the pleasure to meet.


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## the54thvoid (Mar 24, 2014)

RCoon said:


> While I kinda agree with that, and there's the extremely obvious example of that, I think most of our reps have been pretty great. The NZXT and Corsair reps on TPU are probably some of the best I've had the pleasure to meet.



The Seasonic man was nice too! And I am happy with my replacement unit.


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## micropage7 (Mar 24, 2014)

Norton said:


> I've seen behavior like this from salespeople in other industries- wondering if this is taught at some workshop or something- the attitude seemed pretty excessive from his side
> 
> Definitely a different experience than I got from Bryan at Swiftech- he was 100% professional, helpful, and courteous when he helped me resolve my H220 pump issue.
> 
> P.S> pH strips and cheap meters suck for accuracy....


yeah, sometimes they defending their product and point their customer do something wrong and "its all your fault", our product is good and we use high standard for our products



the54thvoid said:


> Overpriced crap anyhow.
> 
> Just stick to the purest coolant you can (add anti-corrosives if you must) and run it through coloured (and/or UV) tubing.
> 
> Dye might look great but it also looks like a flat colour.  The same result is obtained through tubing without the added problem of dyes and ignorant and patronising reps.





brandonwh64 said:


> Those so called coolants are shit. Just use distilled water



ive heard distulled water is one way to avoid any problem, just use it with color tubing and it all be good.


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## Tatty_One (Mar 24, 2014)

RCoon said:


> While I kinda agree with that, and there's the extremely obvious example of that, I think most of our reps have been pretty great. The NZXT and Corsair reps on TPU are probably some of the best I've had the pleasure to meet.


 
 I agree and generally we are very lucky and the examples you gave are clearly the way it should be done, but in context we don't have that many, especally in comparison to some other sites but the odd one or two we have that have turned bad make it quite a high ratio if you get my meaning.  Once you get to the point tha even manufacturers support forums get closed down for weeks on end because feedback is negative you know you are facing an uphill struggle!


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## Wrigleyvillain (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't know…I don't agree either with how he handled it (plus this dude once said he'd send me a sample when it was first starting out and it never happened which was meh) but most if not all of the "big boys" of this hobby use Mayhems and have for years now and do so for good reason(s).

All I'm saying is that it seems pretty clear by now that his products are not generally shoddy. And while I generally agree with Phenom's statement Mayhem's does allow very customizable and essentially unique color that you won't get from any tubing.


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## vega22 (Mar 24, 2014)

i dont rate pastel tbh, everyone i know who has used has had it change colour.

fyi mick is mayhem, he is an ok bloke from my dealings with him.

i have tried a few of their lines and i rate xt 1 as good as anything out there. 

it is my understanding that right now the big boys in the wc market are blaming the lining on some tubing for causing discolourations to the liquid.

i would keep spamming their facebook tbh pointing out how poor the documentation is and that the instructions need to be much clearer.


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## Kaynar (Mar 24, 2014)

I cleaned my HWLabs rad really well when I bought them (using very hot distilled water) but they still caused the water in my loop to go greenish after a month even when I tried to put 5 times more biocide than the standard amount in order to combat the algae. I had to empty everything after 2 months cause I was afraid this was gona turn bad so I used distilled malt vinegar to wash everything (including the blocks pump etc) and then flushed with distilled water to make sure there was no vinegar left inside (could corrode the rads, who knows). I haven't had a problem since then.

Both times I used Mayhems Pure H2O water and Mayhems biocide. I wrote to mayhems to tell them that their biocide was not doing its job but they also gave me a cold answer that I should have flushed my rads better. I had such a big problem that I even had greenish foam developing on the surface of the water in the reservoir. Truth is, after I flushed them properly, I didn't have the issue again (6+ months now) and 1 drop of the biocide per month is largely enough.

On another note, I would never buy colours for my loop, it is said that the residues of the colours get stuck on the inside of the blocks and the pumps and degrade way too fast. In other words, colours are just for the looks but not good. If you read around you will see many ppl are disappointed with Pastel colours specifically.


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## theonedub (Mar 24, 2014)

Kaynar said:


> Both times I used Mayhems Pure H2O water and Mayhems biocide. I wrote to mayhems to tell them that their biocide was not doing its job but they also gave me a cold answer that I should have flushed my rads better. I had such a big problem that I even had greenish foam developing on the surface of the water in the reservoir. Truth is, after I flushed them properly, I didn't have the issue again (6+ months now) and 1 drop of the biocide per month is largely enough.
> 
> On another note, I would never buy colours for my loop, it is said that the residues of the colours get stuck on the inside of the blocks and the pumps and degrade way too fast. In other words, colours are just for the looks but not good. If you read around you will see many ppl are disappointed with Pastel colours specifically.





marsey99 said:


> i dont rate pastel tbh, everyone i know who has used has had it change colour.
> 
> fyi mick is mayhem, he is an ok bloke from my dealings with him.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing that information with me. Do you know what forum you guys were looking at where you saw other people disappointed with Pastels in specific?


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## Wrigleyvillain (Mar 24, 2014)

Well the OCN Watercooling Club is a very busy thread with very experienced people many of whom use or have used Mayhem's products.

http://www.overclock.net/t/584302/ocn-water-cooling-club-and-picture-gallery/


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## Sasqui (Mar 24, 2014)

Good string of pics.  I only use distilled water myself now (as you have learned).  Check out this thread:  http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/primochill-dye-bomb-fail.178530/


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## Kaynar (Mar 24, 2014)

theonedub said:


> Thanks for sharing that information with me. Do you know what forum you guys were looking at where you saw other people disappointed with Pastels in specific?


forums of overclockers.co.uk, where they also have a Mayhems rep.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah he (and the company) is in the UK.



Sasqui said:


> Good string of pics.  I only use distilled water myself now (as you have learned).  Check out this thread: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/primochill-dye-bomb-fail.178530/



Yeah but, generally speaking, comparing Mayhems to Primo Chill Dye Bomb is akin to comparing a Thermaltake Big Water Kit to an XSPC one.

Before Mayhem's no one used really used dyes at all except noobs who hadn't yet learned the hard way why to avoid. Surprised that so many are even still on the market.


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## RCoon (Mar 24, 2014)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> all except noobs who hadn't yet learned the hard way why to avoid. Surprised that so many are even still on the market.



Me too, the odd thing is I believe it's mayhem who are making display coolant, which specifically clogs up your components with small particles that are used to make the coolant look spectacular when it's flowing through the system. Literally made for show systems for no longer than a day or two, then you spend a few hours scrubbing your £3000 custom build afterwards of particles.

EDIT: Found it - http://www.mayhems.co.uk/front/aurora.html


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## Norton (Mar 24, 2014)

RCoon said:


> Me too, the odd thing is I believe it's mayhem who are making display coolant, which specifically clogs up your components with small particles that are used to make the coolant look spectacular when it's flowing through the system. Literally made for show systems for no longer than a day or two, then you spend a few hours scrubbing your £3000 custom build afterwards of particles.
> 
> EDIT: Found it - http://www.mayhems.co.uk/front/aurora.html



Thanks for the link rcoon!

That's for the Aurora coolant, which is 85% Biodegradeable- the Pastel line states a 3 yr lifespan. I did check their MSDS sheets on the Pastel line and they contain 20-80% "vegetable extracts" (CAS # listed is for Glycerol, a type of sugar alcohol). I'm not sure how that much Glycerol would react with clear tubing?

@theonedub- do you know if that clear tubing you're using is Tygon? Mayhem's Pastel page mentions discoloration of Tygon tubing by this product


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## RCoon (Mar 24, 2014)

Norton said:


> Thanks for the link rcoon!
> 
> That's for the Aurora coolant, which is 85% Biodegradeable- the Pastel line states a 3 yr lifespan. I did check their MSDS sheets on the Pastel line and they contain 20-80% "vegetable extracts" (CAS # listed is for Glycerol, a type of sugar alcohol). I'm not sure how that much Glycerol would react with clear tubing?
> 
> @theonedub- do you know if that clear tubing you're using is Tygon? Mayhem's Pastel page mentions discoloration of Tygon tubing by this product



http://mayhems-aurora.wikispaces.com/


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## Steevo (Mar 24, 2014)

He does seem like an arse, but cleaning with vinegar or other acid and a soap is a must.


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## theonedub (Mar 25, 2014)

@Norton- I'm fairly certain the tubing is Primochill.


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## brechan69 (Mar 25, 2014)

theonedub said:


> I appreciate all the replies this far, great to know I'm not the only one thinking he has an attitude problem.
> 
> I'd like to know if anyone had maybe used Mayhems product before with similar results?
> 
> I'm running distilled now and really like it. No dyes or coolant in my plans anymore, that's for sure.




I tried Mayhem's  Aurora (Blue Nebula) coolant once, just once; within a week it had gunked up pretty much my entire loop, and most of the "particulates" had settled near my drain port. After getting the same attitude from "Mick"; I said goodbye and went back to using Feser coolants.

Tom Logan used Mayhem's (pastel) coolants for years; Mick even sponsored his "Orca" build, here's the result of that experience - mind your ears children, there's a wee bit of profanity in the video *start at the 20:09 mark if you would


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## HammerON (Mar 25, 2014)

I stopped using colored coolant about 4 years ago and started using distilled water and a silver kill coil (been water cooling since 2006). However I actually had an issue with just using distilled water and a silver kill coil about two years ago. It may have been a fault of not cleaning the rads, blocks, pump or res completely - I just don't know. However I decided at that time that I would start using Koolance liquid coolant and have not had a problem since. Yes it is more expensive than distilled water I can buy at the store, but for the peace of mind it is worth the price. I have been using this one:
http://koolance.com/liq-702-liquid-coolant-bottle-high-performance-700ml-clear


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## Snakec88 (Dec 29, 2015)

This is what happened to mine after 2 days


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## DarthBaggins (Dec 29, 2015)

I've personally had zero issues w/ Mayhems Fluids, currently run Mayhems X1 BloodRed (red and yellow are their most sensitive colors and are prone to changing)  so far zero color change in the red (been running for 9mo's in a Acrylic tubed loop and Bitspower Nickle blocks).  I've also run their Pastel Mint Green and again zero issues and used Primochill's Advanced LRT.  Now Mick can be a good guy don't get me wrong, but this kind of response has been seen way too often from him (Should see the recent vlog from JayzTwoCents).  Problem is, as I said, Yellow and reds in their fluids are overly sensitive to ph imbalances and heat (certain temps are known to cause these colors to change).  Now I know they've released a new Pastel Extreme (Nano fluid) that is supposed to be alot better.  Then who knows how long that Litre of coolant sat on a shelf somewhere and more than likely wasn't kept at the proper temps as stated on the bottle.   After certain recent events w/ Mayhems' and how they've been poorly handling customer service I wont be buying anymore products of theirs until I see a change.


Side Note on my loops I tend to do a vinegar/distilled flush on the rads for 24hrs, then straight distilled flush for 12hrs, then Baking soda/distilled on all components for another 12-24hrs, and again a 12hr distilled flush.  After the final flush I run distilled for a couple hours then pH test to ensure I'm at 6.8-7 (which is what Mayhems recommends for prevention of color change in their fluids).  This is alot of work to ensure their fluids work properly, but I also do this process for when I run straight Distilled w/ biocide to ensure now growth etc.


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## theonedub (Dec 29, 2015)

Nothing has changed over at Mayhems. Mick has no idea how to talk to people or provide even average customer service. I'm glad jayz2cents called him out on his horrendous support and attitude. This happened about a year ago to me and its still slightly upsetting to read his replies.

Don't buy his product- had he not been exposed by someone with a large Twitter/Social Networking presence he would be delivering the same lackluster service he gave me to everyone.


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## Snakec88 (Dec 29, 2015)

ya i agree very poor customer service and i am very happy with jayz video. im guessing i should be going with just distilled water now?


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## DarthBaggins (Dec 29, 2015)

And the funny thing is J2C wasn't rude about it and was very professional, which makes Mayhems look worse

Another thing you might want to taker note on is the EKWB's fluids (more current ones released w/in this past year (was actually in 2014) are made by Mayhems.

https://www.ekwb.com/company/history/ (8th bulletpoint in 2014)

so really this will effect more than Mayhems in a way


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## OneMoar (Dec 29, 2015)

threads like this are reason we don't have a lot of vendor reps on tpu
we don't put up with there marketing-speel bullshit
-that being said
it seems like common sense to me that heat and PH would affect a dye particularly a solid-based dye with flake


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## newtekie1 (Dec 29, 2015)

OneMoar said:


> it seems like common sense to me that heat and PH would affect a dye particularly a solid-based dye with flake



I think it comes down to the heat really.  Jay's experience kind of confirms that, IMO.  His hotter loop changed color a lot quicker than the cooler running loop.  The pastel fluids just can't handle heat, and Mayhems is just making the situation worse with their poor handling of it.


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## DarthBaggins (Dec 29, 2015)

Mick actually made a formal apology over on OCN and even stated he definitely handled it unprofessionally so he's hiring/hired a real PR person/tema to handle this from now on (he's needed to do this for a few years now)  But yes Pastels are very sensitive fluids that they produce


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## newtekie1 (Dec 29, 2015)

DarthBaggins said:


> Mick actually made a formal apology over on OCN and even stated he definitely handled it unprofessionally so he's hiring/hired a real PR person/tema to handle this from now on (he's needed to do this for a few years now)  But yes Pastels are very sensitive fluids that they produce



To little too late. And burying it in a thread with 12,000+ posts is a chicken shit way to apologize.

If he really wanted to apologize he'd put it out on the front page of his website, and on the same social media outlets he used to blast Jay in the first place.  Not some, relatively, obscure web forum in a massive thread.


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## DarthBaggins (Dec 29, 2015)

Oh I know, now he's having to back pedal hard but again it's too late for that and will take alot of time to fix the damage that's been done.  Especially with the reach J2C has and as far as the ever spreading reach of digital media


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## GreiverBlade (Dec 29, 2015)

strange enough i use Mayhems X1 Blood Red, while in my modified Raijintek Triton i have no issue at all, in the GPU custom loop i had some gunk build up, which are gone now (still have to clean one tube, when i will change the fitting) 
i was quite surprised about that, tho i still have a 1LT bottle of it at home 


btw i had the same issue with pretty much all coolant that say "biocide/inhibitor/corrosion" additives already added, i guess i just forgot to run the loop, without the rig, filled with distilled water to flush it and that's what caused the build up


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Dec 29, 2015)

Here is the video for anyone that doesnt know who Jay is or aware of the video he just recently posted. 









It's a known issue amongst a lot of pastel coolant made by Mayhem.

Issues like this (not the PR but just the cleaning in general) required when issues like this arise in loops is why I will NEVER go a full loop system. Ill stick to AiO's for the CPU and GPU when they make those in the future. 

(fully aware of addon's I can buy for unused CPU AiO's)


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## Alex B (Sep 16, 2017)

Hi all.

I've been a very happy pastel purple user for 6 months until my EKWB pump stopped working due to an internal fire. The fluid leaked through an O ring causing the PCB to short out. The day i noticed it had broken both my 1080ti's got very hot 95 degrees. A few days after i had fitted the new pump the purple changed to light pink. I then drained the system but did not flush. 2 weeks after it went pink again.

I'm not pointing fingers, only offering up my observations. Could color change  be affected by high fluid temp?

Flushing loop as i type getting it ready for my new X1 UV Purple


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## OneMoar (Sep 16, 2017)

don't use anything other then distilled water and a anti-corrosive in your loop 
also nice thread necro


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## vega22 (Sep 16, 2017)

mayhems xt1 is easily the best fluid i have used.

pastel and aurora have known issues but also have a narrow ideal usage and it is not for day to day systems in use 24/7


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