# Solar energy stored for up to 18 years.



## DeathtoGnomes (Apr 13, 2022)

Sounds too good to be true, but  proof of concept is at hand.

So expect new battery tech to use solar energy, not to be confused with other forms of energy, read on....










						Major solar breakthrough means energy can be stored for up to 18 years
					

The future of solar has just got brighter with this ‘ultra-thin’ device for converting stored energy into electricity.




					www.euronews.com
				




Its interesting really, if its developed into a battery container, just how long will a battery like this last in actual usage? Granted is a couple decades to fruition.


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## Shrek (Apr 13, 2022)

Thermoelectric efficiency is very low


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## qubit (Apr 13, 2022)

The basic way that this works is to "wind up the molecules" a bit like a coiled spring stores energy using the sunlight and when they unwind them with the catalyst, the energy is released.

Very clever and I hope they can make a useful commercial version sooner rather than later.


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## Shrek (Apr 13, 2022)

How is this different from sodium acetate supercooling?

Click Heat Science - YouTube


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## qubit (Apr 13, 2022)

Shrek said:


> How is this different from sodium acetate supercooling?
> 
> Click Heat Science - YouTube


It’s storing solar energy.


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## looniam (Apr 13, 2022)

chalmers university of technology? 








						Swedish site rolls out ‘green steel’
					

LULEA, Sweden -- For hundreds of years, raging blast furnaces -- fed with coking coal -- have forged steel used in cars, railways, bridges and skyscrapers.




					www.arkansasonline.com
				











						Residual water from the food industry gives seaweed cultivation a boost
					

Process water from the food industry is an excellent fertilizer in land-based seaweed cultivation. Not only does the seaweed grow faster; its protein content also multiplies. In this way, process water can go from being a cost to becoming a resource in the food industry.



					www.sciencedaily.com
				











						How e-Scooters Can Safely Operate in a City
					

Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden, presents a framework for comparing how different micromobility vehicles, such as e-scooters safety




					cleantechnica.com
				




i think i like that place.


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## Minus Infinity (Apr 28, 2022)

So why would you choose this over storing the energy in a battery? I doubt it will store much energy and how will it delvier the enrgy in a useful manner like a battery?


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## R-T-B (Apr 28, 2022)

Minus Infinity said:


> So why would you choose this over storing the energy in a battery? I doubt it will store much energy and how will it delvier the enrgy in a useful manner like a battery?


What battery holds a charge for 18 years without trickle charging?


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## defaultluser (Apr 28, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> What battery holds a charge for 18 years without trickle charging?




Why does anyone care?

You're starting-out with 2/3 the efficiency of straight cells->electricity, the cut that by another 35-40% TEC efficiency.

Might as well pay the high costs of local battery installations  at power plants*(because most stored energy will get used within days, negating the whole purpose!)

As-for your laptop battery replacement, at total efficiency of under 10%, these things would be like the Wireless charges of the cell phone world! * They might have trouble being competitive with the energy density of Liion


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## ThrashZone (Apr 28, 2022)

Hi,
Not sure much would be stored seeing much of the production isn't enough to supply demand.


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## r9 (Apr 28, 2022)

Storing energy has always been the biggest problem moving away from fossil fuels.


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## Pawelr98 (Apr 28, 2022)

Energy storage is several things:
-cost
-capacity
-efficiency
-longevity

Currently, the best storage solution is still the pumped hydro.
80% efficiency, can last for decades, big capacity although high cost.

Hydrogen for example is too low on efficiency, as the gas has to be compressed, requiring energy.
Electrolysis takes some efficiency off as well, so do the fuel cells.

Batteries are too high cost and too short lived.

This thing utlizes thermoelectric generator, which has even lower efficiency.
Sure, you can store the energy, but the cost of that output energy will be say 10 times higher than input price.
Then you go into the payback period, this has to pay for itself and those renewable systems.


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## R-T-B (Apr 28, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> Why does anyone care?


I dunno.  I'm sure there is some obscure use case.


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## R0H1T (Apr 30, 2022)

The biggest issue with batteries or really anything related to "storing energy" is energy density. If you can store energy for a decent amount of time without using too much space, or wasting much of it through conversion you're likely going to be the next $100 billionaire


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## cvaldes (May 1, 2022)

Aren't dead dinosaurs technically a storage medium for solar energy? After all, most of them were herbivores, right?


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## DrCR (May 1, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Aren't dead dinosaurs technically a storage medium for solar energy? After all, most of them were herbivores, right?


Wha?! That’s like saying solar panel manufacturing isn’t pollution free nor are they (at least in the U.S.) renewable.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 1, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Aren't dead dinosaurs technically a storage medium for solar energy? After all, most of them were herbivores, right?


Well yeah, but the manufacturing takes a tad bit longer than most solar storage mediums.


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## R0H1T (May 1, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> After all, most of them were herbivores, right?


Where did you get that from? Also if Brontosaurus Rex eats a tree branch & ingests a 1000 insects on it does that technically count as an omnivore or herbivore


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## Space Lynx (May 1, 2022)

This looks fantastic... honestly there is a chance humanity will still make it in the end. Lots of progress in lots of fields. Hopefully its just not too late.


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## Shrek (May 1, 2022)

Humanity will make it, just not while doubling the population every 50 years.


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## cvaldes (May 1, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Where did you get that from? Also if Brontosaurus Rex eats a tree branch & ingests a 1000 insects on it does that technically count as an omnivore or herbivore


The definition of an herbivore is an animal whose diet is mostly plants or exclusively plants. The majority of dinosaurs were herbivores with the theropods being the best known class of carnivores.

Refer the Wikipedia entry if you want or the various sources listed in the entry's bibliography.

Note that this distinction isn't specific to dinosaurs. A cow grazes on plants and will also consume the random insect here or there but it's still an herbivore according to scientists because most of its diet comes from plants.

It's not like these animals can carefully take plants to a big sink, rinse off the bugs and carefully inspect them before taking a bite.


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## R-T-B (May 18, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Aren't dead dinosaurs technically a storage medium for solar energy? After all, most of them were herbivores, right?


I'd say the plants moreso than the dinos, the dinos just ate the plant batteries.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> What battery holds a charge for 18 years without trickle charging?


Why would you want to produce electrity today, only to bottle it up and not use it for 18 years?  Why not just wait 18 years _then_ produce the electricity? 

If you want electricity for 18 years without any new inputs, you're going to use an RTG (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator) or "nuclear battery" (also radioactive decay but diamonds convert the particles into electricity):








						U.S. Startup Unveils Safe Diamond Nuclear Battery That Could Last Up To 28,000 Years
					

The radioactive diamond battery will be made from nuclear waste and would be available for demo in 2023.




					www.techtimes.com
				




To the OP, it's a thermal system and thermal systems are always big/bulky.  I can't see any practical applications.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 19, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I can't see any practical applications.


Its too early to tell to really agree with that statement.


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## ThrashZone (May 19, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Why would you want to produce electrity today, only to bottle it up and not use it for 18 years?  Why not just wait 18 years _then_ produce the electricity?
> 
> If you want electricity for 18 years without any new inputs, you're going to use an RTG (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator) or "nuclear battery" (also radioactive decay but diamonds convert the particles into electricity):
> 
> ...


Hi,
Indeed for some odd reason some think there is some sort of excess green energy around not being used


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 19, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Indeed for some odd reason some think there is some sort of excess green energy around not being used


There is, we just need to capture it all!


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## ThrashZone (May 19, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> There is, we just need to capture it all!


Hi,
Yep Germany couldn't do it and they tried, now has a deal for oil pipeline with RUS.


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## looniam (May 19, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Indeed for some odd reason some think there is some sort of excess green energy around not being used


well theoretically mass is energy at rest, so they aren't wrong.


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## R-T-B (May 19, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Why would you want to produce electrity today, only to bottle it up and not use it for 18 years? Why not just wait 18 years _then_ produce the electricity?


That wasn't the question nor the point.  I'm sure there is some obscure use case.



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Indeed for some odd reason some think there is some sort of excess green energy around not being used


I mean there plainly is.  Ever seen the sun?  We can measure it's output.  It's enormous.  However the question is if capturing it is really practical or worth it.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> mean there plainly is. Ever seen the sun? We can measure it's output. It's enormous. However the question is if capturing it is really practical or worth it.


If we had the capability to build a Dyson Sphere capturing it would be the easy part. 

Afterall, the Moon is a Dyson sphere. Did any see that new movie, MoonFall? If its in a movie its real, right?


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## ThrashZone (May 19, 2022)

Hi,
Welp if you've ever went fishing the sun reflection will blind you so harness that wasted energy asap


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Welp if you've ever went fishing the sun reflection will blind you so harness that wasted energy asap


If you want to harvest all the energy ever to hit the earth I hope you have one hell of a place to store it.


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## Count von Schwalbe (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> If you want to harvest all the energy ever to hit the earth I hope you have one hell of a place to store it.


For 18 years


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> For 18 years


For safety.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> For safety.


For Science!


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> For Science!


It glows!


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## DoLlyBirD (May 20, 2022)

Didn't Tesla figure out unlimited free electricity before they killed him off and stole his research?


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## FordGT90Concept (May 20, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Welp if you've ever went fishing the sun reflection will blind you so harness that wasted energy asap


It's not wasted.  It's part of what drives weather patterns to irrigate continents and islands.  It is also fuel for all plant life on Earth which is a foundational food supply for all animals on Earth.  Humans have to be _very_ careful with repurposing solar energy for non-solar use because it shifts the balance of the ecosystem. It really is a butterfly effect: even placing solar panels in a desert with no plants/no animals will still cause localized warming which can change wind patterns which can affect life downwind. Every acre converted to human use is disrupting something even if we can't easily identify it now.

The only place where it makes sense to deploy solar is on already black roofs (no change in albedo); however, the 25% capacity factor always rears its ugly head with solar which is why most electric companies don't want you putting it in the grid because it costs them a lot of money to deal with it.  Solar is the worst form of electricity unless you're far removed from the grid...and then you're forced to adopt your usage patterns to align with the sun.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 20, 2022)

DoLlyBirD said:


> Didn't Tesla figure out unlimited free electricity before they killed him off and stole his research?


yes.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> yes.


Scientists hate this!



FordGT90Concept said:


> The only place where it makes sense to deploy solar is on already black roofs


or space.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Scientists hate this!


that.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> that.


I mean I was just poking fun at the fascination with Tesla.  He came up with (or largely marketed at least) AC polyphase power, but he didn't make free electricity, and was also a bit of an eccentric nut.  At the end of his life, he legit believed he was romantically in love with a common pigeon, and largely had no money to show for his creations and wonders.  He also sunk tons of money into largely unfeasible laser deathray ideas for the government.

Edison wasn't much better being an asshole in his own right who stole more ideas than he created, but Tesla was a bit off too.

Heroes are often less heroic when you get to know them, though...  Almost like they too, are human or something.


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 20, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I mean I was just poking fun at the fascination with Tesla.  He came up with (or largely marketed at least) AC polyphase power, but he didn't make free electricity, and was also a bit of an eccentric nut.  At the end of his life, he legit believed he was romantically in love with a common pigeon, and largely had no money to show for his creations and wonders.  He also sunk tons of money into largely unfeasible laser deathray ideas for the government.
> 
> Edison wasn't much better being an asshole in his own right who stole more ideas than he created, but Tesla was a bit off too.
> 
> Heroes are often less heroic when you get to know them, though...


Tesla did dream of free electricity, one experiment with an energy collector, something I dont remember anything about, but wardenclyffe tower was supposed to be part of, lets call it theory, wireless electricity concept that might have lead to free electricity.  The tower as a transmitter and the collector to turn into usable power.  

At the end of his life there was several conspiracy theories why he lost his mind, out side of his, *gasp*, old age.  Think about this, in that period of time how many people actually lived well into their 80s that didnt have some sort of mental dysfunction. TBH I feel bad for Tesla, his ideas were great for humanity, but pure shit for business side of them.  There is no doubt he was a target of financial ruin, it was no secret Edison had it out for him ever since the AC/DC war. Edison would never let that grudge go.



R-T-B said:


> Heroes are often less heroic when you get to know them, though...


True. True.


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## R-T-B (May 20, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> At the end of his life there was several conspiracy theories why he lost his mind, out side of his, *gasp*, old age. Think about this, in that period of time how many people actually lived well into their 80s that didnt have some sort of mental dysfunction. TBH I feel bad for Tesla, his ideas were great for humanity, but pure shit for business side of them. There is no doubt he was a target of financial ruin, it was no secret Edison had it out for him ever since the AC/DC war. Edison would never let that grudge go.


I'm on the same page here.  I just like to bring people back down to earth sometimes.  Like I edited in at the end, remember we are all human.  I think it helps to keep our heroes in that context.

I do agree that if we judged everyone by their final years, we'd all likely be senile argumentative old folks...  and not surprising.  End of life just isn't a fun time.  I'm certain that was a lot to do with Teslas older life phase eccentricities.


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## Assimilator (Jun 11, 2022)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If you want electricity for 18 years without any new inputs, you're going to use an RTG (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator) or "nuclear battery" (also radioactive decay but diamonds convert the particles into electricity)


You seem to be wilfully ignoring the fact that this is far safer than anything that uses radioactive fuel sources.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 11, 2022)

I honestly see no use for this, i can't imagine a case where we need to store energy in that time frame, or even 10, or 5 years or even less. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

The more we had the more we would use. Long storage capacity is like trying to invent a ice cream that isn't cold, what would be the point then.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jun 12, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> I honestly see no use for this, i can't imagine a case where we need to store energy in that time frame, or even 10, or 5 years or even less. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.


I can see a potential use for storing energy for as long as it takes to build a new power plant. Not longer.


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## InVasMani (Jun 12, 2022)

We already have a power plant it's called the Sun we just to harvest that energy closer to it capture it and return with it.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 12, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> I can see a potential use for storing energy for as long as it takes to build a new power plant. Not longer.



what? i didn't understood. Why would we need to store energy in that specific case? Why would we need a new power plant if we had that much excess of energy to have to store it for decades?


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jun 12, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> what? i didn't understood. Why would we need to store energy in that specific case? Why would we need a new power plant if we had that much excess of energy to have to store it for decades?


Store when the load on the grid is light. As grid load increases past what can be supplied, use the stored energy to take care of the excess load until you can build a power plant to support that load. Rinse and repeat.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 12, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> What battery holds a charge for 18 years without trickle charging?


I think one kind of battery is out now that can theoretically hold for decades and is pliable technology now.

Gravity storage battery s, and they're fairly green.

Using a lifted wieght, similar in principle to hydro pumped energy storage yet useful without a mountain or reservoir.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 12, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> Store when the load on the grid is light. As grid load increases past what can be supplied, use the stored energy to take care of the excess load until you can build a power plant to support that load. Rinse and repeat.


but that's very short term storage, at most 6 months, from one season to another, not decades.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jun 12, 2022)

"They were so concerned with whether they could, they did not stop to think whether they should"


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## R-T-B (Jun 12, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I think one kind of battery is out now that can theoretically hold for decades and is pliable technology now.
> 
> Gravity storage battery s, and they're fairly green.
> 
> Using a lifted wieght, similar in principle to hydro pumped energy storage yet useful without a mountain or reservoir.


Yes those have literally been around for centuries.  They used to make grandfather clocks that ran on this principle.

Size limitations, etc.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jun 12, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Yes those have literally been around for centuries.  They used to make grandfather clocks that ran on this principle.











						The J. H. Miller II Floor Clock
					

Model 611-031 pictured here features a Kieninger cable-driven, triple-melody, nine-tubular chime movement and features 36 bushings (24 bronze and 12 jeweled) and an automatic nightime chime shut-off option.




					m.colemanfurniture.com


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## R-T-B (Jun 12, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> The J. H. Miller II Floor Clock
> 
> 
> Model 611-031 pictured here features a Kieninger cable-driven, triple-melody, nine-tubular chime movement and features 36 bushings (24 bronze and 12 jeweled) and an automatic nightime chime shut-off option.
> ...


Yeah, I knew someone would still be making them when I said that.  Still, mass production has stopped.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jun 13, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Yeah, I knew someone would still be making them when I said that.  Still, mass production has stopped.




I just realized that I forgot my sarcastic/amusing comment...

@Bomby569 does it only take 6 months to build a new power plant? If/when nuclear becomes dominant, I reckon 3 years is more like it (for larger ones at least).


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## Bomby569 (Jun 13, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> @Bomby569 does it only take 6 months to build a new power plant? If/when nuclear becomes dominant, I reckon 3 years is more like it (for larger ones at least).



I honestly still don't get your point about a new power plant? If you have more then what you need why build another power plant.

I was saying, there is a real problem with renewables, you may have more then what you need in the day and not enough in the late afternoon or something like that, that's when we need storage, but that's very short term.
I guess it could still be a thing if you have too much in the winter and not enough in the summer, or vice versa, but again short term

Storing power because we are bulding a new power plant, i don't see what your point is?

Nuclear is not a solution, never will be, to expensive, takes ages to build a power plant, and no one wants one near them. Fusion will be a thing way before we would ever consider nuclear everywhere.


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## Count von Schwalbe (Jun 13, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> I honestly still don't get your point about a new power plant? If you have more then what you need why build another power plant.
> 
> ...
> 
> Storing power because we are bulding a new power plant, i don't see what your point is?


As a buffer, so you can deliver power to meet load over capacity. If you have X MW capacity and .98X MW load, you can fill storage. As Average load increases by say 5% as a new industrial park is built, your average load will be higher than capacity, so you add power generation capabilities (power plant, dam, solar field, etc.). The storage would supply the excess need until more generation came online. 

However, the only place in North America that it would be maybe needed is Texas as their grids are comparatively small.


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## InVasMani (Jun 13, 2022)

So basically a 18 year time window to store/retrieve energy that's huge. That combined with AI robotics is a big potential.


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## Bomby569 (Jun 13, 2022)

Count von Schwalbe said:


> As a buffer, so you can deliver power to meet load over capacity. If you have X MW capacity and .98X MW load, you can fill storage. As Average load increases by say 5% as a new industrial park is built, your average load will be higher than capacity, so you add power generation capabilities (power plant, dam, solar field, etc.). The storage would supply the excess need until more generation came online.
> 
> However, the only place in North America that it would be maybe needed is Texas as their grids are comparatively small.



At least in Europe all the grid is connected (except for Iberia but that's still 2 countries connected). That's how you manage that, one place closes a factory, the other opens a factory. Big numbers management of the grid capacity. It is wasteful to be managing a grid on a local level.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 15, 2022)

Most electric utilities have smart grid tech that cuts off air conditioners and water heaters when demand is high.  That's local level power management which reduces the height of the peaks.

Molten sodium acts as a battery in the Natrium reactor.

The problem with all battery tech is portability.  Li-ion remains king in that regard.

I saw somewhere (can't remember where) that for a 100% renewable grid, you'd need 2 weeks worth of battery capacity.  It's not really longevity that matters (especially if portability is reasonable: just replace it), but Twh/$ capacity.

I know my power utility installed two Tesla battery units on their grid to act as a short term buffer at a transfer facility.  Basically prevents brown outs while natural gas turbines spool up. Can also fill any gaps in upstream generation/switching.

Fun fact: you'd only need 30% more base load electric generation in the USA to power 100% electric vehicle economy.  Reason: they can charge off peak.


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