# Venezuelan Petro appears completely lifeless.



## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

Interesting article saying that in essence "the petro, at present, doesn’t exist as a functioning currency. "

So much for a "backed" crypto doing better, heh.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...currency-is-nowhere-to-be-found-idUSKCN1LF15U


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## hat (Aug 31, 2018)

Backed by a corrupt government of a suffering country... might as well invest in Zimbabwe dollars.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

hat said:


> Backed by a corrupt government of a suffering country... might as well invest in Zimbabwe dollars.



Corrupt government.... run by an ex-bus driver. Winning combo.

Also, it's kind of odd they even named the cryptocurrency "Petro". Their whole problem was not diversifying in the first place. So even when they do diversify, their still attached somehow.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Corrupt government.... run by an ex-bus driver. Winning combo.
> 
> Also, it's kind of odd they even named the cryptocurrency "Petro". Their whole problem was not diversifying in the first place. So even when they do diversify, their still attached somehow.



No its not that odd:






Regardless, Maduro falls for the same trap every time, the man is seriously not that intelligent and has no idea of economics.

Its similar to Erdogan of Turkey right now. Large amounts of foreign debt cripple these countries.


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## enxo218 (Aug 31, 2018)

not much into economics or cryptocurrency I admit but isn't "backed" currency supposed to be the true nature in definition of a cryptocurrency? 

also Venezuela have poorly implemented and communicated their petro and it also suffers from us sanction banishment. In essence taking account of the main topic of your thread , one does not make a statistic , if you wanted to wholly push your point across then mentioning the shortcomings of other physically backed cryptocurrencies like the rmg should have been done.

like I mentioned before I don't follow crypto much and I am very welcoming to the concept of backed cryptocurrencies they are more sensible to free money and if you are willing to engage then broaden the currencies in question.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> No its not that odd:
> 
> View attachment 106161
> 
> ...



I was being nice by saying "odd". Frankly, it's stupid. It was always stupid. Even when oil was booming. They intentionally destroyed other industries and thought they could ride on that one indefinitely.

The most retarded people in existence is the kind of "modern man" who somehow experiences famines, even when there aren't exterior factors causing it... when it's self-inflicted. Even Neo-Lithic men knew better.


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## sepheronx (Aug 31, 2018)

One has to take various forms into the equation here:
1) Venezuela is facing heavy sanctions to begin with.  While in essence their products should be in heavy demand outside of Venezuela (resources), it isn't because of multitude of reasons. Biggest one being their crude oil is full of sulfur and is very heavy, thus only two major plants can really refine that into petrol and both are located in Texas.
2) While it is true they are facing a food crisis, mostly because of heavy control of the import/export business done by the military (generals hold control of this), they actually now produce more in terms of food than they did before Chavez.  The whole point what Venezuela was trying to do was take full control of the food market in Venezuela and have more local production, which worked.  Issue was, their production rates are lot less than the demand that is needed.  Prices increased along with the drastic inflation.
3) Due to sanctions, cryptocurrency is a good alternative.  Tying it to something?  Well, dunno.  It worked as it made them $3B.  Regardless, input and cost vs what they got out of it I believe shows they made a profit, if we like it or not.  Issue is now, who will trade it?  It can probably be converted but a lot do not use it compared to the others.  Venezuela should have simply started increasing Monero and use that as a method to bypass sanctions rather than creating their own.  Now they plan for another cryptocurrency.  This time, doubt anyone will seriously look at it.

Everytime someone goes into the method of changing their economy from being a full capitalist one were they end up having few with all and rest have low life expectancy and very low education, to something that sounds good on paper but doesn't work (socialism) because of human nature, there is always major issues.  Actually, its the reason why initially Soviet Union and China was at war with each other in 1969, was because soviets really tried to push China not to collectivize farming like they did which cost them millions of lives.  Mao disagreed and believed fully what Lenin pushed for. Well, Venezuela is attempting the same futile method, but in a lot less grand method.  

Yes, they are borrowing too much money.  Borrowing isn't bad so long as the money is used to actually develop and create an industry.  If they cannot trade with many, then they must look at being an autarky in order to get themselves out of a mess and become nearly impervious to outside attacks.  BUT, that requires a lot of honest and skilled people to be able to make that happen, something that Venezuela lacks.  In tough times, most usually borrow money to develop themselves.  When times are good, usually people scale back a bit and save money in order to create a pillow so that if times are tough, it helps soften the blow.  Venezuela didn't do that.  They spent like drunken sailors on weapons and other systems (some of them were needed like Sukhoi's and AD systems, many others were not and were simply buying influence from China/Russia) and in that turn, they had lot less money to work with.

I could go on forever about Venezuela.  Have a few friends there.  Issue is much more complicated tbh.  They could have learned from Russia's mistake in 1998 and why they managed to not only get themselves out of a mess, but manage to make even sanctions pretty much useless.  But, maybe one countries solution wont work for another.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> One has to take various forms into the equation here:
> 1) Venezuela is facing heavy sanctions to begin with.  While in essence their products should be in heavy demand outside of Venezuela (resources), it isn't because of multitude of reasons. Biggest one being their crude oil is full of sulfur and is very heavy, thus only two major plants can really refine that into petrol and both are located in Texas.
> 2) While it is true they are facing a food crisis, mostly because of heavy control of the import/export business done by the military (generals hold control of this), they actually now produce more in terms of food than they did before Chavez.  The whole point what Venezuela was trying to do was take full control of the food market in Venezuela and have more local production, which worked.  Issue was, their production rates are lot less than the demand that is needed.  Prices increased along with the drastic inflation.
> 3) Due to sanctions, cryptocurrency is a good alternative.  Tying it to something?  Well, dunno.  It worked as it made them $3B.  Regardless, input and cost vs what they got out of it I believe shows they made a profit, if we like it or not.  Issue is now, who will trade it?  It can probably be converted but a lot do not use it compared to the others.  Venezuela should have simply started increasing Monero and use that as a method to bypass sanctions rather than creating their own.  Now they plan for another cryptocurrency.  This time, doubt anyone will seriously look at it.
> ...



No one learns from Russia.... except maybe Russia (they're still learning, I guess).

Thanks for your insight though. Didn't know how they changed food production since Chavez.


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## sepheronx (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> No one learns from Russia.... except maybe Russia (they're still learning, I guess).
> 
> Thanks for your insight though. Didn't know how they changed food production since Chavez.



Russia's methods of learning from their past issues should be studied in every country on "what to do if you are bankrupt and want to save yourself".  I recall very well the 90's in Russia and 2018 is considered a completely different country than it was back then.  Now, they have order, industry, producing more food than soviet union (so 1 country vs multiple of them), and more disposable income then ever before.  That is why Putin gets the support he gets from his people.  Then you look at the mess that happened to my ancestral country of Ukraine after US supported coup?  Bankrupt (debt is now 80% of GDP or higher and continuing obtaining free handouts monthly), population decreasing by about 1 person every 2 mins (I think that was latest statistics), and average person in the country makes less than average person in Ghana.  Did they learn their mistakes? No, they continue to make even more mistakes.

Venezuela's food production and local ownership of farm land was possibly 10% of total local demand, now its over 30% (that was when Chavez ruled) and it was planned for much more until the crisis hit.  Oil production in Venezuela requires, for balance of cost, $125bbl.  It is what? ~$75bbl now?  Venezuela could make a complete turn around if they simply invested in newer technology to extract the resources at a cheaper cost, and look for partners willing to invest in more refineries with newer tech to refine the oil (the two Texas locations are apparently really old), and maybe even within the country.  The first step they made was the best one - removing subsidies on petrol.  That was costing them a lot of money. 

I could really go into how the US and EU along with UK are doing their best to cause havoc in the country and that is also major reason why Venezuela is facing a huge mess.  But I don't think mods would like that.  All I can add to it is - Stop complaining about others interfering in your politics when you are doing it, but 100x magnitude more.

Edit: as a note, I will not spare Canada either.  It is following along and bullying other nations too, and supporting some very horrible people.  You can say its "politics" but I am a man of faith and I think that playing such silly games is costing one their soul.  Doesn't matter to me if you (anyone else) believes in it or not.  Simply that it is wrong and should not be done, period.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Corrupt government.... run by an ex-bus driver. Winning combo.


He’s just driving the country to the next stop fam.


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## Steevo (Aug 31, 2018)

Venezuela had one problem, socialism never works in practice.

Sanctions from the government seized control of private investments made from trade partners home countries demolished the rest of their economy, they should have been investing in the means of production, but why when the president could have his own variety show?


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> I could really go into how the US and EU along with UK are doing their best to cause havoc in the country and that is also major reason why Venezuela is facing a huge mess.  But I don't think mods would like that.  All I can add to it is - Stop complaining about others interfering in your politics when you are doing it, but 100x magnitude more.


Any country that bases their economy around a single commodity is in for a world of hurt when that commodity falls out of fashion.  The 2008 $145/barrel caused less people to travel and demand for more fuel efficient vehicles to soar.  The speculators that drove it to crazy prices were also destroyed when oil plummeted to <$50/barrel.  Even the oil corporations took that as a sign: they fired a lot of people and modernized making it cheaper to produce oil from not-so-cheap sources.  Countries dependent on high oil prices (Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc.) were crushed by the low prices.  Add in Chavez's death in Venezuela and the government fell apart with the oil.

Venezuelan cryptocurrency was always doomed to fail.  It's a desperate move from a desperate country.  No one is going to invest in desperation unless they have a major stake in the success to offset risks.  Cryptocurrency is risk on top of risk.  It's not like investors could even make a withdrawal in oil because the infrastructure doesn't exist to do so. Oil is also a consumed commodity and it's not like Venezuela is going to hold 5 billion barrels of oil in reserves for you so when you decide to sell, it sells on your behalf.  It was venture capitalism with none of the plus sides and all of the negative sides.  They should have just sold the plot to Exxon Mobile, BP, etc. to exploit if they were serious about a cash infusion.  But no, that would be selling out to the evil capitalist pigs.

Venezuela needs a coup de tat to remove the idealists in power and replace them with realists.


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## Steevo (Aug 31, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Any country that bases their economy around a single commodity is in for a world of hurt when that commodity falls out of fashion.  The 2008 $145/barrel caused less people to travel and demand for more fuel efficient vehicles to soar.  The speculators that drove it to crazy prices were also destroyed when oil plummeted to <$50/barrel.  Even the oil corporations took that as a sign: they fired a lot of people and modernized making it cheaper to produce oil from not-so-cheap sources.  Countries dependent on high oil prices (Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc.) were crushed by the low prices.  Add in Chavez's death in Venezuela and the government fell apart with the oil.
> 
> Venezuelan cryptocurrency was always doomed to fail.  It's a desperate move from a desperate country.  No one is going to invest in desperation unless they have a major stake in the success to offset risks.  Cryptocurrency is risk on top of risk.  It's not like investors could even make a withdrawal in oil because the infrastructure doesn't exist to do so. Oil is also a consumed commodity and it's not like Venezuela is going to hold 5 billion barrels of oil in reserves for you so when you decide to sell, it sells on your behalf.  It was venture capitalism with none of the plus sides and all of the negative sides.  They should have just sold the plot to Exxon Mobile, BP, etc. to exploit if they were serious about a cash infusion.  But no, that would be selling out to the evil capitalist pigs.
> 
> Venezuela needs a coup de tat to remove the idealists in power and replace them with realists.



Except true capitalism forces people to work together, and has brought more people out of poverty than everything else we have tried, and not just out of poverty, but astonishingly wealthy with longer lives.


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## bonehead123 (Aug 31, 2018)

Gump said:

"Stupid is as stupid does"

Patton said:

"History teaches us that history teaches us nothing"

'nuff said


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

bonehead123 said:


> Gump said:
> 
> "Stupid is as stupid does"
> 
> ...



But Patton hated commies. Probably even invented that word.


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## bonehead123 (Aug 31, 2018)

I'm sure the feeling was mutual, but at least Patton was smart enough to know why he hated them....

Commies of that era just hated everyone, including themselves, but never could figure out a good reason why....


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

bonehead123 said:


> I'm sure the feeling was mutual, but at least Patton was smart enough to know why he hated them....
> 
> Commies of that era just hated everyone, including themselves, but never could figure out a good reason why....



Fixating on Class (as the source of all problems.. as well as the means of love and loyalty to others)… would piss me off too. Or on a good day, it'd be incredibly boring. There's so much more to life than this. I want to say that Marx himself is the one communist who didn't sound so bad,  but he started this. Family, nation, culture, art, religion, etc.. None of these meant anything to him. And under Lenin and Stalin, one was called to literally kill any sign of those loyalties. Apparently we're all supposed to "evolve" past this and become a single organism united by the most boring shit ever: class. 

But they put on great shows.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Aug 31, 2018)

Steevo said:


> Except true capitalism forces people to work together, and has brought more people out of poverty than everything else we have tried, and not just out of poverty, but astonishingly wealthy with longer lives.


*Regulated Capitalism* not "true capitalism"
True Capitalism doesn't work that well either because sooner or later the markets fail when the capitalist's have all the money.
Regulated Capitalism allows a proper flow of money into a market that can then be well sustained.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

Steevo said:


> socialism never works in practice.



Europe would like a word with you.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

Socialism is just stage 1 according to Marx. A woman going through birth pangs and still carries remnants of class and capitalism.

It's probably more appropriate to say that it's Communism that truly never works. Because it'll never get past that first stage of socialism.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Aug 31, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> I could really go into how the US and EU along with UK are doing their best to cause havoc in the country and that is also major reason why Venezuela is facing a huge mess. But I don't think mods would like that. All I can add to it is - Stop complaining about others interfering in your politics when you are doing it, but 100x magnitude more.


so easy to blame everyone else.


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## R0H1T (Aug 31, 2018)

Hey at least this is better than the abomination in *canuck*land 
_NSFW_


Spoiler



https://www.auradolls.com/


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## rtwjunkie (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Europe would like a word with you.


Theirs is only limited, some more than others.  Real socialism has never worked yet.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Hey at least this is better than the abomination in *canuck*land
> _NSFW_
> 
> 
> ...



lol.. Really thought Japan would have beaten Canada to the punch on that.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Hey at least this is better than the abomination in *canuck*land
> _NSFW_
> 
> 
> ...



I can think of far worse abominations centered in America.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> Theirs is only limited, some more than others.  Real socialism has never worked yet.


Indeed, whenever socialism has been tried, their economies fell way behind the mixed capitalist economies.  Individuals fundamentally know what's best and capitalism empowers individuals to create demand and supply.  Government knows best mentality is what creates situations like Venezuela: their economy isn't adaptable at all so when the field changes drastically, the government falls apart unable to respond to the demands placed on it.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> Theirs is only limited, some more than others.  Real socialism has never worked yet.



Depends on how you define it.  I'd say Scandanavia pretty much hits the nail on the head personally.  Communism is a different animal than socialism IMO.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Indeed, whenever socialism has been tried, their economies fell way behind the mixed capitalist economies.



I mean, I'd argue socialism basicslly is mixed-capitalism...



FordGT90Concept said:


> Individuals fundamentally know what's best and capitalism empowers individuals to create demand and supply.



You do realize government is run by individuals in larger numbers, right?


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## Vayra86 (Aug 31, 2018)

Steevo said:


> Venezuela had one problem, socialism never works in practice.
> 
> Sanctions from the government seized control of private investments made from trade partners home countries demolished the rest of their economy, they should have been investing in the means of production, but why when the president could have his own variety show?



Socialism works fine, but as with any ideology, once taken to extremes, and unable to adapt to present realities, (realpolitik, hi) it will fail.

Many societies that use elements of socialism are much better off for it.

In Holland we have a pretty strong socialist influence and it seems to work out quite well.



R-T-B said:


> I mean, I'd argue socialism basicslly is mixed-capitalism...



Absolutely. People think in boxes and its so silly - even the US incorporates many socialist elements, and it is obvious to see the advantages of that. If you support people in times of need, their cost to society will decrease. If you support them when they do not need it, you create the inequality the US is well known for - the irony however is that the support given to the rich is because of a hardline capitalist influence. Its another form of extremism and one we often fail to see. Fighting regulation on financial markets is one of these extremes.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

Unfortunately, Scandinavia's birthrates are falling. This kind of thing inevitably encourages the government to look for more avenues of taxes... like the current migrant crises in some Euro countries. And then these people aren't as well integrated as the citizens who've been there for centuries. It'll lead to friction or just outright separate civilizations.. One that could even take over the very government that invited them in. No more taxes for you! No more nothing.

But it'll take awhile.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Unfortunately, Scandinavia's birthrates are falling. This kind of thing inevitably encourages the government to look for more avenues of taxes... like the current migrant crises in some Euro countries. And then these people aren't as well integrated as the citizens who've been there for centuries. It'll lead to friction or just outright separate civilizations.. One that could even take over the very government that invited them in. No more taxes for you! No more nothing.
> 
> But it'll take awhile.



The only constant in time is change 

Societies should and will always adapt.


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## dirtyferret (Aug 31, 2018)

_World of Warcraft's' virtual gold is seven times more valuable than Venezuela's real money _

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/08/worl...more-than-venezuelas-currency-trnd/index.html


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> The only constant in time is change
> 
> Societies should and will always adapt.



Letting something populate out of sight (especially in ghettos), not integrate, and then sitting around not building your own numbers.... isn't much of an adaptation. That's just suicide. 

edit: Actually, I know Denmark is making some efforts at actual integration. Not sure about others.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> You do realize government is run by individuals in larger numbers, right?


Governments, like any collective, are governed by groupthink, not individualistic thought. Where an individual may only want food, a government will look at exportability and decide, as a collective, that wheat is the best crop to grow.  But individuals grow tired of wheat and the group becomes dependent on wheat revenue so individuals suffer a bland, malnutritional diet because the group decided on profit over individual needs.  If the individual, instead, was given options by entrepreneurs, say, bananas (something exotic that a government focused on self sustenance refuses to import) he/she may determine that additional cost of obtaining bananas is worth it because wheat is so bland.  A new market for goods is then created by individuals, for individuals that's against the collective's goals.

What if the price of bananas jumps up $0.20?  The individual may decide that is too much so the sellers are incentivized to find a way to make it cheaper.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Unfortunately, Scandinavia's birthrates are falling.



So are America's.  That's a sign of a succeful economomy and falling poverty, not vice-versa.



StrayKAT said:


> like the current migrant crises in some Euro countries.



Which I would point out, Europe seems less concerned with than America.



StrayKAT said:


> Actually, I know Denmark is making some efforts at actual integration. Not sure about others.



You'd be correct, they even went so far as to rebuke some Trump-tweets with actual crime statistics in their "immigrant ghettos."  In short, they aren't any worse off than non-immigrant regions.



StrayKAT said:


> As for why it happens, I think it's because of more negative reasons, than positive.



Not sure I can agree with that.  People don't need to use children as farm hands anymore is generally the region you don't see 2+ kid families anymore.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> So are America's.  That's a sign of a succeful economomy and falling poverty, not vice-versa.



I know! But it's a different type of economy as well (with it's own problems), so I didn't mention it. 

As for why it happens, I think it's because of more negative reasons, than positive.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> But it's a different type of economy as well (with it's own problems), so I didn't mention it.



I think the prinicipal remains the same, and thus, we can't ignore it.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> So are America's.  That's a sign of a succeful economomy and falling poverty, not vice-versa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure what Trump has to do with it. Or what he said. But he'd probably be happy of what they're doing. They're forcing Muslim migrants to learn about Danish culture.. and even making the kids learn about Christmas (so not merely Danish culture). They're compelling them even, and adding penalties to welfare if there isn't compliance.

Whatever it is they said to Trump, that isn't the behavior of a country very lax about it's migrant issue. It's afraid.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Not sure what Trump has to do with it. Or what he said. But he'd probably be happy of what they're doing. They're forcing Muslim migrants to learn about Danish culture.. and even making the kids learn about Christmas (so not merely Danish culture). They're compelling them even, and adding penalties to welfare if there isn't compliance.
> 
> Whatever it is they said to Trump, that isn't the behavior of a country very lax about it's migrant issue. It's afraid.



I can believe it.  Denmark isn't perfect and has a lot of political turmoil in regards to the muslim religion (similar to france with their burka ban), but they do try to "accept" fellow human beings at least in principal.

As for what Trump has to do with it, he has pretty much made himself the posterchild for "turn them away" immigration policies, so that should answer it.  I'm actually more curious how immigration came out of the petro, now that I think about it.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

Wait, so, you are telling me a dictatorial government can't do economy, and blames others for their mistakes? Shocking.
To hell with Europe anyway. Go get your own resources.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> To hell with Europe anyway. Go get your own resources.



This isn't a Tropico game man. 

Seriously, why the euro hatred?  I'm genuinely curious.  I'd think America has mucked about more in South American politics than anyone and would actually like to hear your side.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

I, for one, love all of these places  But tend to be cynical about many modern political matters. It's usually not the fault of citizens themselves either.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> This isn't a Tropico game man.
> 
> Seriously, why the euro hatred?  I'm genuinely curious.  I'd think America has mucked about more in South American politics than anyone and would actually like to hear your side.


Everybody hates America, there is no longer a need to make it vocal.
Even Americans hate America.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

I think I'm mostly a Texan. Not American. Maybe even I hate America.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2018)

I don't think people in this thread realize how desperate the situation is in Venezuela:
Venezuelans are starving amid economic crisis, food shortages

They've basically not been able to afford food for two years now. Government doesn't give a shit:
Let Them Eat Rabbit Is Venezuelan President's Response To Food Shortages

Venezuela's poor management is dragging neighbors down:
Colombia, Peru pledge joint response to Venezuela exodus


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## alexander brett (Aug 31, 2018)

sepheronx said:


> One has to take various forms into the equation here:
> 1) Venezuela is facing heavy sanctions to begin with.  While in essence their products should be in heavy demand outside of Venezuela (resources), it isn't because of multitude of reasons. Biggest one being their crude oil is full of sulfur and is very heavy, thus only two major plants can really refine that into petrol and both are located in Texas.
> 2) While it is true they are facing a food crisis, mostly because of heavy control of the import/export business done by the military (generals hold control of this), they actually now produce more in terms of food than they did before Chavez.  The whole point what Venezuela was trying to do was take full control of the food market in Venezuela and have more local production, which worked.  Issue was, their production rates are lot less than the demand that is needed.  Prices increased along with the drastic inflation.
> 3) Due to sanctions, cryptocurrency is a good alternative.  Tying it to something?  Well, dunno.  It worked as it made them $3B.  Regardless, input and cost vs what they got out of it I believe shows they made a profit, if we like it or not.  Issue is now, who will trade it?  It can probably be converted but a lot do not use it compared to the others.  Venezuela should have simply started increasing Monero and use that as a method to bypass sanctions rather than creating their own.  Now they plan for another cryptocurrency.  This time, doubt anyone will seriously look at it.
> ...



Yes, thank you for inserting information into a typically misunderstood situation.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Everybody hates America, there is no longer a need to make it vocal.
> Even Americans hate America.



I think people mistake criticism for hatred.

I love America.



FordGT90Concept said:


> I don't think people in this thread realize how desperate the situation is in Venezuela:



I did...  about a year ago when they started breaking into zoos and eating exotic animals.  Unfortunately as had been said, the issue is much more complicated than just one easy fix away.


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## alexander brett (Aug 31, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> Theirs is only limited, some more than others.  Real socialism has never worked yet.



If you can say this about socialism you can say this about any pure form of any economic system. Or are you not aware that capitalism is failing millions of Americans and that we also have food "shortages" otherwise known as, millions of people too poor to properly feed their families in the "richest" country in the world?


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

alexander brett said:


> If you can say this about socialism you can say this about any pure form of any economic system. Or are you not aware that capitalism is failing millions of Americans and that we also have food "shortages" otherwise known as, millions of people too poor to properly feed their families in the "richest" country in the world?



I don't know that we actually have starving people in any widespread number in America.  Homelessness is definitely an issue though.


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## alexander brett (Aug 31, 2018)

jmcslob said:


> *Regulated Capitalism* not "true capitalism"
> True Capitalism doesn't work that well either because sooner or later the markets fail when the capitalist's have all the money.
> Regulated Capitalism allows a proper flow of money into a market that can then be well sustained.


Problem is, as long as US corporations have all the legal protections of a US person, we can not properly regulate capitalism. It is doomed to failure. Those of you who think the US economic and political system is not failing are in for a shock.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2018)

This thread is about Venezuela, not America.  If you want to bash America, start a thread in The Lounge.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

alexander brett said:


> Problem is, as long as US corporations have all the legal protections of a US person, we can not properly regulate capitalism. It is doomed to failure. Those of you who think the US economic and political system is not failing are in for a shock.



I think it's going down the wrong path, particularly right now.

I do believe it has a good chance to right itself though, as it has done many times historically.



FordGT90Concept said:


> This thread is about Venezuela, not America.  If you want to bash America, start a thread in The Lounge.



Actually it's about the petro, but I'll be broad and say Venezuela applies.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2018)

Lack of Petro rather, but fair enough.


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## alexander brett (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know that we actually have starving people in any widespread number in America.  Homelessness is definitely an issue though.


Please note, I said "properly feed" not starving to death. And if one thinks that being malnourished in the USA despite us having FAR MORE than enough food to feed everyone is OK, I pity them.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

They should make Petro good for mining with Intel IGPs .

Call Castro, tell him it's time to go back to the drug business.


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## alexander brett (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I think it's going down the wrong path, particularly right now.
> 
> I do believe it has a good chance to right itself though, as it has done many times historically.
> 
> ...



I think it has a chance. I don't think the chances are particularly good if you include our enviromental and surveillance state. And GT90 car guy, Venezuela's current situation is very very much about the USA as is the rest of the Americas due to our tremendous economic and military power being projected around the globe and especially central and south America.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I don't think people in this thread realize how desperate the situation is in Venezuela:
> Venezuelans are starving amid economic crisis, food shortages
> 
> They've basically not been able to afford food for two years now. Government doesn't give a shit:
> ...



I've paid attention for awhile now on and off. Sometimes I sympathize, sometimes I wonder if certain protestors have ulterior motives (like I've heard some say they outright want American intervention. That doesn't sound right to me. I've seen this trick before -- and when America gets involved, it's this very reason why people hate Americans. Because it inevitably screws up... like clockwork). I won't deny though that Maduro is woefully incompetent.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> I've paid attention for awhile now on and off. Sometimes I sympathize, sometimes I wonder if certain protestors have ulterior motives (like I've heard some say they outright want American intervention. That doesn't sound right to me. I've seen this trick before -- and when America gets involved, it's this very reason why people hate Americans. Because it inevitably screws up... like clockwork). I won't deny though that Maduro is woefully incompetent.


It's in your blood, the british had the same problem.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Because it inevitably screws up... like clockwork



That's because America can't have a war last more than one presidential office without voting in a new administration that will prematurely end it, leaving people hangining in horrible circumstances.

Still, if you are eating exotic zoo animals to survive, american intervention probably does not sound so bad.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

alexander brett said:


> If you can say this about socialism you can say this about any pure form of any economic system. Or are you not aware that capitalism is failing millions of Americans and that we also have food "shortages" otherwise known as, millions of people too poor to properly feed their families in the "richest" country in the world?



At the moment, America has one of the strongest economies and lowest unemployment rates in it's history. Capitalism definitely isn't perfect, but I don't think it's the greatest time to say how horrible it is either. Maybe wait awhile? 

And the vast amount of amount of homeless oddly live in heavily taxed areas. You'd think they'd have the cash to spare, but they don't. NYC, Chicago, LA, SF, Seattle, New Orleans, etc.. Go figure.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> It's in your blood, the british had the same problem.



I don't think blood has anything to do with it.  It's more that large republics don't function well in wartime without a united populace, something we completely lack.

In the british empire, it was a different issue.  Their very size worked against them without electronic communication.  Administration because diffilcult, and corruption became a big issue.



StrayKAT said:


> And the vast amount of amount of homeless oddly live in heavily taxed areas. You'd think they'd have the cash to spare, but they don't. NYC, Chicago, LA, SF, Seattle, New Orleans, etc.. Go figure.



As true as this may be, none of them are starving, and most of them have severe mental health issues.  I'd argue in other places they simply die.

Source:  I live in Olympia, WA.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I don't think blood has anything to do with it.  It's more that large republics don't function well in wartime without a united populace, something we completely lack.
> 
> In the british empire, it was a different issue.  Their very size worked against them without electronic communication.  Administration because diffilcult, and corruption became a big issue.


Easy to solve:
1. Don't do war.
2. Use all that saved money on education and gun control.
3. ????
4. PROFIT.

Just called Castro, he says if Maduro can't solve the food shortage, he is going to be replaced soon.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Easy to solve:
> 1. Don't do war.
> 2. Use all that saved money on education and gun control.
> 3. ????
> ...



You are acting like I disagree with that idea (well, other than gun control, which I think is only good in limited ways).  I'm talking about interventions that have already happened though.  The last thing you want to do is dump them on their ass.  The soviets already did that with Afghanistan and we don't want to repeat that mistake.


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## StrayKAT (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> As true as this may be, none of them are starving, and most of them have severe mental health issues.  I'd argue in other places they simply die.
> 
> Source:  I live in Olympia, WA.



Hah.. very true in some cases I've seen. I actually have a pic of a 400 lb woman wandering butt naked in the middle of Seattle yelling at the top of her lungs. She was definitely sick.... but well fed 



GoldenX said:


> It's in your blood, the british had the same problem.



Not my blood. I didn't support these wars, except Afghanistan (after 9/11....which was immediately squandered into invading Iraq... and then my head sunk). I'm beginning to think even Afghanistan (and even 9/11) need to be reexamined... tbh. Never had a moment of optimism about the Arab Spring. Same goes for the silly documentaries that spread everywhere about how great the Ukrainian revolution was... and all of the calls since then to side with either Putin or Ukraine. It isn't that damn simple.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

Funny thing is, here in Argentina there are a lot of Maduro supporters (a lot of populism supporters, too many of them...). You tell them to take some vacations on Venezuela, and they simply insult you.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 31, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Societies *should *and will always adapt.



Not always, not for the sake of "acceptance". Sometimes you are doing just fine and you don't need to adapt, others should adapt to your conditions.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Not always, not for the sake of "acceptance". Sometimes you are doing just fine and you don't need to adapt, others should adapt to your conditions.


So, the new society adapts. You just proved it.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> Hah.. very true in some cases I've seen. I actually have a pic of a 400 lb woman wandering butt naked in the middle of Seattle yelling at the top of her lungs. She was definitely sick.... but well fed



The magic phrase to set off most of the homeless people here is "dragon."

Most of them seem convinced the government is run by them.  Don't ask me why.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> The magic phrase to set off most of the homeless people here is "dragon."
> 
> Most of them seem convinced the government is run by them.  Don't ask me why.


False, the right term is Reptilian or Lizard People.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> False, the right term is Reptilian or Lizzard People.



Only if you respect them.  They hate them.  The dragons are "keeping them down."

I made an honest effort to understand one of the homeless guys here once.  Was confusing.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> So, the new society adapts. You just proved it.



I don't follow. There is no new society, no change took place.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Only if you respect them.  They hate them.  The dragons are "keeping them down."
> 
> I made an honest effort to understand one of the homeless guys here once.  Was confusing.


We have a whole town/city full of them, it's called El Bolsón (The Shrine). Not joking.



Vya Domus said:


> I don't follow. There is no new society, no change took place.


 Society adapted for those that didn't want to change, society changed.


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## dorsetknob (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> It's in your blood, the british had the same problem.



Your Getting too political and Racist
This Thread is getting Toxic


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Your Getting too political and Racist
> This Thread is getting Toxic


Brits always hate when you throw history books at them.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Your Getting too political and Racist
> This Thread is getting Toxic



I know right, the lizzards are getting offended !



GoldenX said:


> Brits always hate when you throw history books at them.



Brits of today aren't the brits of yesteryear though.  Best keep that in mind.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Society adapted for those that didn't want to change, society changed.



That's just an illusion. Inclusion doesn't change the definition of something.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Brits of today aren't the brits of yesteryear though.  Best keep that in mind.


Good to know.


Vya Domus said:


> That's just an illusion. Inclusion doesn't change the definition of something.


Society is not defined by it's current state, it's defined as a whole, past, present and future. Any change in it's members is a change on society.


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## Vya Domus (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Society is not defined by it's current state.



It's very much defined by its current state, what's outside of that is called an ideal. And it may or not cause a change in due time.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

This is getting too philosophical for me...  taking a break.


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

True, I'm at my limit.
Send Castro my regards.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Send Castro my regards.



As long as he doesn't shoot me with a sonic weapon... 

Just kidding.  (I have no idea what's going on with that, only that castro isn't involved)


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

Who do you think is the real leader of Venezuela, and of the drug business in th entire continent?


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## alexander brett (Aug 31, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> Brits always hate when you throw history books at them.


LOL That's like criticizing Israel!
Me: Israelis sure get a lot of money from the USA and shoots a lot of Palestninians.
Them: Anti-semite!
Me: I'm Jewish.
Them: Self-hating anti-semite!



R-T-B said:


> As long as he doesn't shoot me with a sonic weapon...
> 
> Just kidding.  (I have no idea what's going on with that, only that castro isn't involved)


You have no idea? Sure you do. I'll give you an idea. DARPA etc. etc. I don't mean that to sound condescending BTW.


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## Norton (Aug 31, 2018)

Any posts not relating to the crypto discussion initiated by the OP may be subject to infractions past this point.

Members are requested to return to topic and to give the forum guidelines a good review prior to further posting in this thread.

Consider this the only public warning


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## GoldenX (Aug 31, 2018)

I still think they should have made Petro Intel UHD friendly...

http://www.elpetro.gob.ve/#home
They have a site for it, it doesn't work well with Firefox.


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## R-T-B (Aug 31, 2018)

Norton said:


> Any posts not relating to the crypto discussion initiated by the OP may be subject to infractions past this point.
> 
> Members are requested to return to topic and to give the forum guidelines a good review prior to further posting in this thread.
> 
> Consider this the only public warning



Thanks, it was getting a little out of hand for even me, and I enjoy a little banter.

My feeling is that the petro was doomed to fail not only due to governments own issues, but because of a complete lack of transparency from the government.  What is blockchain if not transparent?  It violates a lot of crypto principles.


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## Frick (Aug 31, 2018)

Steevo said:


> Venezuela had one problem, socialism never works in practice.
> 
> Sanctions from the government seized control of private investments made from trade partners home countries demolished the rest of their economy, they should have been investing in the means of production, but why when the president could have his own variety show?



No government works in practice. No economic system works in practice. In real life every single one of them depends on some being on top and others being on the bottom.


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## R-T-B (Sep 1, 2018)

Frick said:


> No government works in practice. No economic system works in practice. In real life every single one of them depends on some being on top and others being on the bottom.



I guess there's only one answer then:

Lower your standards.  Yay!


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## GoldenX (Sep 1, 2018)

Frick said:


> some being on top and others being on the bottom.


Lewd.


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## notb (Sep 1, 2018)

Steevo said:


> Venezuela had one problem, socialism never works in practice.


Could people stop this socialism nonsense?
Veneluzela's problems have nothing to do with socialism. It's just bad central planning. Or to put it different: the administration is formed by morons.

This crypto idiocy is another example. It's like if they had Monday gov meeting when everyone can propose another way of making money.
And at some point someone said: "hey, there's a thing called crypto - you don't have to know or have anything to start it and people buy it like crazy".
So they did, because why not? Crypto IPO is almost free.

And had they done it a year earlier, it might have actually worked - which says a lot about crypto in general...

They should have gone for Pokemon Go tourism back in 2016...


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## Vayra86 (Sep 1, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> I don't follow. There is no new society, no change took place.



He is quite right. An example. Here in NL we have a guy called Geert Wilders. He is keen to point out we / society should NEVER adapt to islamic influences; has a strong anti-immigrant stance, etc.

At the same time, his presence and his opinion causes change in the way we approach people. Whether you'd want to or not, his presence has caused polarization in society. Thus, it has changed. Its too simple to say 'the new guys gotta change to our ways'. That is not how changes happen, change happens due to inevitability and cause and effect.

*just read the warning... apologies I'll drop it now.



notb said:


> Could people stop this socialism nonsense?
> Veneluzela's problems have nothing to do with socialism. It's just bad central planning. Or to put it different: the administration is formed by morons.
> 
> This crypto idiocy is another example. It's like if they had Monday gov meeting when everyone can propose another way of making money.
> ...



^ This. Bolivia is another rather recent example, had a similar crisis.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 1, 2018)

notb said:


> Could people stop this socialism nonsense?
> Veneluzela's problems have nothing to do with socialism. It's just bad central planning. Or to put it different: the administration is formed by morons.


You’re still too young to remember.  This crypto currency problem ruining the economy is just the latest iteration of their socialist society not working.  Central planning is one of its tenets, and is too rigid to work in the real world.  And trying to hang hopes on volatile crypto market?  Icing on the cake.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 1, 2018)

When it all boils down to it...… if you take the politics out, take the history out, take ideology out then you are left with just leadership, my point being that just some leaders are just crap in all walks of life, many who have been elected are placed in those positions because they appear the strongest candidate representing a political party but that will never stop them being poor leaders, leadership is a valuable commodity, possibly one of the most valuable but rarely rated that highly until things go significantly wrong..... or right.


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## notb (Sep 1, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> You’re still too young to remember.  This crypto currency problem ruining the economy is just the latest iteration of their socialist society not working.  Central planning is one of its tenets, and is too rigid to work in the real world.  And trying to hang hopes on volatile crypto market?  Icing on the cake.


LOL on the "too young". I was born in a communist country and you've read about them on wikipedia. :-D
Maybe you're too American to understand?  You don't have any experience with socialism in US. All your opinions are based on decades of propaganda. 
Socialism instantly brings discussions about communism, CCCP or North Korea.

If a country has a very poor government, then it doesn't really matter what model is being implemented - it won't work.
It's just that Americans simply don't know much about European policies and society (and cars ).

Socialist countries do work in real world. They're not that much different from US. And they don't try to fill budget deficits with crypto IPOs.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 1, 2018)

notb said:


> LOL on the "too young". I was born in a communist country and you've read about them on wikipedia. :-D
> Maybe you're too American to understand?  You don't have any experience with socialism in US. All your opinions are based on decades of propaganda.
> Socialism instantly brings discussions about communism, CCCP or North Korea.
> 
> ...


Thing is, you actually know nothing about me or my knowledge or education or my history or where I’ve lived or what I experienced living there.  Nice assumptions and U.S. bashing, though.

You are too young.  You weren’t even a teenager when your country changed.  For the record, though, the too young was in reference to Venezuela, the topic at hand.  It has had problems over 20 years trying to be socialist.

I also believe the entire post you replied with is full of all the unnecessary BS that has been warned against.


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## R-T-B (Sep 1, 2018)

notb said:


> And had they done it a year earlier, it might have actually worked - which says a lot about crypto in general...



No, I don't think so.  Too many crypto core tennets were ignored, thus pissing off their biggest buyers.


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## StrayKAT (Sep 1, 2018)

notb said:


> Could people stop this socialism nonsense?
> Veneluzela's problems have nothing to do with socialism. It's just bad central planning. .



You realize how contradictory that is, right?

It's socialists who over-emphasize central planning.


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## R-T-B (Sep 1, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> It's socialists who over-emphasize central planning.



That's more communist than socialist.  Socialism to me and how I was taught is basically high state taxes to fund various social state welfare programs, not necessarily high levels of state control.  The economy is taxed, not directed.

Whether or not that is healthy is of course it's own debate.


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## R0H1T (Sep 1, 2018)

Meh, socialism didn't work not because it was inherently bad or worse than capitalism, rather IMO in large part due to the lack of *adequate* checks & balances (also *planning*) in many of the nations that are "considered" socialist. Capitalism on the other hand is all about profits & recently profiteering, btw if it weren't for taxes (socialism right?) the mega billionaires would be trillionaires today & us plebs ~ slaves in all but name.


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 1, 2018)

In the most basic of terms:
Capitalism = people work for themselves (entrepreneurs are principle employer)
Socialism = people work for the government (government is principle employer)
Communism = government tells you what job you're going to do (everyone is a government employee)

Saudi Arabia is highly socialist, for example because some 90% of their work force are government employees.  They're not communist though because people own their own stuff and can choose their career.


Fundamentally the problem is that big governments are unresponsive (they bicker rather than do).  Socialism and communism require bigger governments than capitalism which is why capitalism wins in terms of economic performance.  Venezuela has a big government relative to its economy.  Their government isn't responsive to the needs of people (does instead what its leaders want to do) so the entire country falls apart.


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## notb (Sep 1, 2018)

StrayKAT said:


> It's socialists who over-emphasize central planning.


It has nothing to do with socialism. It's a different space of ideologies. 
Of course, since socialism's purpose is to redistribute wealth, central planning is essential. You're basically deciding, who gets the taxpayers' money.

But capitalistic economies can (and are) central planned as well. You're not giving away that much (since you collect less), but you can decide who has a successful private business and who doesn't. You think that's not happening in US? Guess again.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 1, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> No its not that odd:
> 
> View attachment 106161
> 
> ...


As a fellow Turkish citizen, we had a similar made-up national cryptocurrency, "Turcoin", that made headlines 3 months ago for credit fraud. The so-called inventor had been feigning confidence by making appearances on their own advertisements.


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## notb (Sep 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Socialism = people work for the government (government is principle employer)


What do you mean by this? Taxes? My employer still earns on my work way more than my country does. 

If you meant the actual rate of people working in public sector, than it has nothing to do with a country being socialist or not. Socialism is about taxes and public spending. A socialist country may have close to 0% employment in public sector. 

Germany and Austria have very high taxes and can easily be called "socialist". Yet, they have very small public sector (13 and 15%) - even smaller than in USA (16%).
UK, on the other hand, is considered a free-market, capitalist country compared to the rest of EU (Brexit and everything). Yes, the gov employs 22% of the active work force. 
Even more extreme is Singapore - a country often named a golden standard of economic freedom - with 32% of public sector!


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 1, 2018)

notb said:


> What do you mean by this? Taxes? My employer still earns on my work way more than my country does.
> 
> If you meant the actual rate of people working in public sector, than it has nothing to do with a country being socialist or not. Socialism is about taxes and public spending. A socialist country may have close to 0% employment in public sector.
> 
> ...


It's about ownership.  In a capitalist economy, most businesses are privately owned and operated.  In a socialist economy, most businesses are owned and operated by the government.  There's no much point in taxes in a socialist economy because most of the countries GDP is fundamentally owned the government (government literally gets the revenue and wages are paid out from it).  To tax in a socialist economy is for the government to double-dip (government should just lower wages instead of adding taxes on top--effectively the same thing).

Taxation is how a capitalist economy pays for public services and infrastructure.


I think you're talking more about economic freedom:
https://www.heritage.org/index/about


> Economic freedom is the fundamental right of every human to control his or her own labor and property. In an economically free society, individuals are free to work, produce, consume, and invest in any way they please. In economically free societies, governments allow labor, capital, and goods to move freely, and refrain from coercion or constraint of liberty beyond the extent necessary to protect and maintain liberty itself.


----------



## notb (Sep 1, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It's about ownership.  In a capitalist economy, most businesses are privately owned and operated.  In a socialist economy, most businesses are owned and operated by the government.


Nope. Socialism is about wealth redistribution. It's not related to business ownership.


> There's no much point in taxes in a socialist economy because most of the countries GDP is fundamentally owned the government (government literally gets the revenue and wages are paid out from it).


That is just a totally bonkers idea. :-D
Government-owned companies have the same financial and legal environment as everyone else. They report their results and they're either profitable or not. Many are publicly traded.

Gov doesn't get the revenue and it doesn't pay wages. You're describing communism here (in a pretty extreme / pure form).


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## FordGT90Concept (Sep 1, 2018)

notb said:


> Nope. Socialism is about wealth redistribution. It's not related to business ownership.


That's an effect, not a cause.  I think you need brushing up on what socialism is.  No one can get ahead in socialism because areas of the economy that are strong is routed to areas that need propping up (in theory, rarely in practice).  When business is booming under a socialist economy, employees don't see it in their paychecks because everyone is on a wage.



notb said:


> Government-owned companies have the same financial and legal environment as everyone else. They report their results and they're either profitable or not. Many are publicly traded.


Because they're public entities in a capitalist economy.  They behave as an actor in the economy just like any other private company.



notb said:


> You're describing communism here (in a pretty extreme / pure form).


Nope.  In Communism, you're just a drone.  You do whatever the government tells you to do to the best of your ability.  You don't own anything because everything is owned by the government.  If you have a car the government gave you and it breaks down, you take it to a government facility where another drone fixes it so you can go about doing your business for the government.  It's not just GDP that's government-based, it's the entire worth of the country (all assets and liabilities).


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## Norton (Sep 1, 2018)

Issued some reply bans to those members who didn't heed the public warning to stay on topic, have room for more if necessary

Points to follow if it continues


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## bogmali (Sep 2, 2018)

Thread closed as some of you chose to derail the thread and keep it derailed even after others tried to steer it back.


----------

