# Subtle micro-stutter, input lag, floaty mouse feel - computer feels off



## fatehasfans (Sep 30, 2020)

I've had a problem with my newly built PC for about 2 years+ now. The computer just feels 'off', as though there is some kind of very subtle bottlenecking occurring. Also, I'm getting input lag on mouse and keyboard (i.e. there will be the occasional no click registration on mouse or keyboard but there may also be double clicks or keypresses and the mouse feels very off - like floaty/heavy/inconsistent). Everything else on the computer is fine, the machine loads up quickly, I can play games and watch films (though I notice a bit of stuttering on the films) but I will get very subtle stuttering in all games (and desktop) but apart from that no issues, audio is fine as is the running of normal programs. I mean if you weren't a gamer and didn't know any different you'd think there was nothing wrong but once you start playing games it becomes quite noticeable - hard to aim (with floaty mouse --> mouse feels like I'm dragging it across glass, fluctuating constantly between heavy to light movements, so it feels more heavy and sluggish than it should be - not light, crisp and responsive like normal along with bouts of micro-stuttering (esp when panning camera) and the occasional micro-spastication of animations (particularly in sport games) etc.

My specs:
- PSU = Corsair 1200
- Mobo = MSI Z390 A Pro
- 16GB DDR4 3000mhz (Corsair Vengeance)
- GFX = MSI GTX 1080Ti
- HDD = Samsung SSD
- Water cooled




I've listed some of what I've tried below..

- Reinstalled windows
- Deleted mouse files
- Tested new hardware (tested everything one by one)  - except Ram (though I did buy 2x16GB sticks of same ram and nothing changed so I sent them back but I haven't tried different speed ram)
- Went through everything in bios - including flash etc etc
- Updated all drivers and even tried rolling back to previous drivers and older
- Mouse accel input code etc (accel 0/1 nonsense) + removed mouse drivers
- Tried new wall sockets + grounding
- Tested all Nvidia GFX settings - screen res, fixed Frame rate etc ..you name it I tried it
- Hpet timing and all that other fluff
- New keyboard and mouse (though that sort of falls under hardware)
- Windows optimization
- Checked performance, load, monitoring, heat, latency -- everything checks out fine

Problem still persists.

Now the thing is, trying the above things, particularly the bios and nvidia settings, do change the feel of the computer and the feel how games play (limiting frame-rates, v-sync, g-sync, reduce input lag option, etc etc) but the problem is it's only masking the issue because although the game changes slightly in some way the main problem is still underneath which is frustrating because you can achieve smoother outcomes but the input lag (keyboard and mouse and floaty mouse feel) the subtle stuttering/bottleneckning will still very much be there.


If anyone knows a solution or anything that helped please let me know because I want to take a hammer to my PC and I'm extremely depressed after spending a lot of money on creating this monster setup and its not even playable. Oh I also tried installing windows 7, same problem.


P.S. What makes it more frustrating is that to the naked eye everything appears fine, when my friend comes over he thinks nothing is wrong, but he's not a gamer. I also took it to get looked at by a computer shop but again they weren't gamers and they told me everything was fine, and that's the thing everything does seem fine (applications open as they should, videos play, music plays, everything works as normal) but when you move the mouse quickly and try to be precise it feels floaty and in games there feels like a micro-bottlenecking happening somewhere. Losing my mind here :'(


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 30, 2020)

We're to troubleshoot how a PC 'feels' (that others users who used it can't reproduce/feel? Oof.

I see you mention V-sync... if you're using that, it introduces input lag...

Have you tried swapping USB ports for the mouse and keyboard? Use the USB 2.0 ports?


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 30, 2020)

We have one certainty here, you suffer a latency hit somewhere.

So yeah... good luck 
I'd honestly start from scratch if you don't have any lead on where the problem could come from. Bare bones hardware and fresh Windows installation, no additional software. Then start installing drivers and keep on the lookout for latency changes. Build it back up slowly like that until you either find the culprit or it never comes back to begin with.

Prior to that you could try reverting to 'standard' hardware solutions for peripherals, like Earthdog mentioned, the (usually) two 2.0 ports at the top of your I/O panel on the back are a good place to plug mouse/kb first if you haven't already. Display settings: revert to defaults. Check your display cables, maybe replace to test. Check storage access times could be another one, though I doubt this is storage related to be fair.


----------



## fatehasfans (Sep 30, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> We're to troubleshoot how a PC 'feels' (that others users who used it can't reproduce/feel? Oof.
> 
> I see you mention V-sync... if you're using that, it introduces input lag...
> 
> Have you tried swapping USB ports for the mouse and keyboard? Use the USB 2.0 ports?


Yes bud, tried various combinations of options in nvidia control panel - v-sync on, off, fast, etc etc --- nothing. It just creates or removes additional stuttering or changes the 'feel' of the game while the original problems persist.

Also, I see the problem with trying to assess a 'my computer _feels_ different' issue so I could record the micro-stuttering etc. but as for the input lag and mouse click issues - I know they're not hardware related because I've tested the hardware elsewhere, and it's the same with the monitor I've a ROG swift with very low latency so it's not the monitor but the problem with looking for latency help online is that the industry seem obsessed with making it solely an issue with the monitor which limits the help because when I type 'input lag' into Google it's all monitor/hardware related and I know this isn't going to help my problem so I feel there is a real lack of alternative solutions out there as the industry focus on the solution being to do with you not having the latest low latency monitor! Or, it's the generic "your mouse/keyboard are to blame" -- again more hardware focus, but personally I feel that given the amount of software we use now (a lot of it I feel unnecessary) there is a much greater potential for conflict and I feel that this not being addressed and the generic responses online becoming all too common to a point where they're outdated and largely useless. This coincides with the serious rise of more and more people like me who suffer with input lag and/or micro-stuttering problems and who, like me, have tried all the 'common' solutions without success, so something is definitely happening. I feel there is something else causing these common problems, something that's not being solved/explored by the usual sources, I mean I think a lot of us are long beyond the "have you tried turning it on and off yet?" or "reinstall your drivers" type solutions. So it would be great to see some alternative approaches. 
Some would rightly point out that the common remedies work for a lot of people and fair enough yea they do. By all means reinstalling drivers can work for many just as buying a new mouse might work for others but I think there is a massive increase in the number of people who share my symptoms and yet we cannot find a solution from the offered remedies (the main culprits - reinstall windows, drivers, hardware, Hpet!!!) and for this something needs to be done because it's very tiring having to trawl through xxxx computer websites only to find the same three/four answers constantly being regurgitated. Shouldn't we be beyond this?

Sorry for going off-topic but I think is that there is input lag and micro-stuttering, to help sum up the 'feel', well it's essentially a high-end computer not running smoothly like it should.

P.S. Yes I tried switching USBs, thanks.


----------



## EarthDog (Sep 30, 2020)

Hmm... 

Run dpc latency checker and see what happens... 

Have you tried running something that measures input lag and seeing how far it's off?


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 30, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Run dpc latency checker and see what happens...


Came here to say the same.


----------



## fatehasfans (Oct 3, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Hmm...
> 
> Run dpc latency checker and see what happens...
> 
> Have you tried running something that measures input lag and seeing how far it's off?


I've looked at that before along with latencymon but couldn't really see anything.

I've pasted the results..

..let me know if you guys see anything wrong. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to computers.

Thanks.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Oct 3, 2020)

@fatehasfans I know you said you’ve reinstalled all drivers, but the general disposition of your machine really makes me immediately thinknof motherboard chipset drivers not being present. Are those among all the drivers you have installed?  The wrong version can also bring this general behavior as well.  

Just figured I would toss that out there.


----------



## INSTG8R (Oct 3, 2020)

I’m gonna say have a look at your USB drivers possible mixed vendors running on standard MS drivers(shouldn’t matter but something to check at least)


----------



## Grom0X (Oct 3, 2020)

What CPU do you have?


----------



## fatehasfans (Oct 3, 2020)

rtwjunkie said:


> @fatehasfans I know you said you’ve reinstalled all drivers, but the general disposition of your machine really makes me immediately thinknof motherboard chipset drivers not being present. Are those among all the drivers you have installed?  The wrong version can also bring this general behavior as well.
> 
> Just figured I would toss that out there.


You know that's exactly how it feels it's as if the mobo driver isnt installed - if anyone has used their computer without the mobo driver installed they'll know what I'm talking about.

But that's the thing, they are installed (refer to picture of device manager) but I do think it could be something along those lines but everything seems to be there... 



INSTG8R said:


> I’m gonna say have a look at your USB drivers possible mixed vendors running on standard MS drivers(shouldn’t matter but something to check at least)


Will take a look, thanks.



Grom0X said:


> What CPU do you have?


i9-9900K  --- but I had an i7-7820X before but then my friend told me it was that (because apparently the i7-7820X isn't a proper gaming chip) which was causing the problems and he kept imploring me to get a more game-centric chip so I did and guess what? Same problem! Friends  ehh?


----------



## mtcn77 (Oct 3, 2020)

fatehasfans said:


> I've looked at that before along with latencymon but couldn't really see anything.
> 
> I've pasted the results..
> 
> ...


It should hover near 50 us, not 1000us. Don't believe latencymon.
What is your gpu? We've heard Nvidia gpus doing it if all drivers are not set right.


----------



## fatehasfans (Oct 4, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> It should hover near 50 us, not 1000us. Don't believe latencymon.
> What is your gpu? We've heard Nvidia gpus doing it if all drivers are not set right.


I listed in OP, it's MSI GTX 1080Ti


----------



## killaa- (Oct 22, 2020)

fatehasfans said:


> I listed in OP, it's MSI GTX 1080Ti


have you figured out ? i've heard that 10th gen of nvidia cards are haveing latency issues. There's russian thread about this and they sent a link to nvidia driverthat should help. My friend was having floaty mosue issue but it fixed itself. he had 1050ti. i have 1060 ti and i have floaty mouse issue aswell. will try to wodnload this driver


			https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/discover/235611/announcing-geforce-hotfix-driver-368-95/


----------



## Spoon30 (Dec 21, 2020)

OP did you manage to fix the issue?

Having the exact same issue - Feels like I've lost all muscle memory when using my mouse while gaming.

Completely upgraded my whole system and the same thing happens on both systems...Thought it might have been one of the peripherals causing the issue, bought a new monitor, tried 4 new mice, and a new keyboard.

I've had a technician come out to make sure I'm not crazy, and they can feel it too but had absolutely no idea as to what may be causing it -They described it as feeling as if they were drunk.

The microstutters are insanely annoying. It happens during any game I play. If I'm on discord every 20 seconds or so if anyone is speaking, their voice will distort for a fraction of a second before returning to normal.

Scrolling up or down a website, everything jitters and jumps around for a fraction of a second before returning to normal...

Thoughts?


----------



## mechtech (Dec 21, 2020)

Not sure if process explorer would help?









						Process Explorer - Sysinternals
					

Find out what files, registry keys and other objects processes have open, which DLLs they have loaded, and more.



					docs.microsoft.com


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 21, 2020)

Spoon30 said:


> OP did you manage to fix the issue?
> 
> Having the exact same issue - Feels like I've lost all muscle memory when using my mouse while gaming.
> 
> ...


Nvidia driver issue.
Roll back to a previous known working driver or apply the latest hot fix just released.









						NVIDIA Releases GeForce Hotfix Driver Version 460.97
					

NVIDIA has recently pushed out a small hotfix that address 5 issues with the the latest 460.89 WHQL drivers. The fixes include ensuring apps using  NVIDIA Management Library (NVML) can detect GPUs, addressing stuttering issues in Marvel's Avengers, and fixing corrupted display on Lenovo Y740...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## jaggerwild (Dec 21, 2020)

Re installed windows, deleted all mouse files? So you didn't do a CLEAN install? Is Windows fully up to date? Why are you using a 1200Watt PSU? Water cooled? LOLZ, I assume its the CPU(assuming you do have one) cause you don't say what you are using here.


----------



## P4-630 (Dec 21, 2020)

jaggerwild said:


> Re installed windows, deleted all mouse files? So you didn't do a CLEAN install? Is Windows fully up to date? Why are you using a 1200Watt PSU? Water cooled? LOLZ, I assume its the CPU(assuming you do have one) cause you don't say what you are using here.



It's a necro, a new member @Spoon30 posted @ #15
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...e-feel-computer-feels-off.272779/post-4418985


----------



## Spoon30 (Dec 21, 2020)

Sorry I didn't mean to necro the thread - But the problem is insanely infuriating and good to know it's not just limited to me..

I've tried clean windows installs, new mice, new keyboards, new monitors, completely upgrading the whole system (specs below) - Problem exists on both systems..

Intel Core i9 10900K Processor Avenger Edition
Cooler Master MasterLiquid ML240R ARGB AIO Cooler
Gigabyte Z490 Aorus Pro AX Motherboard
Gigabyte GeForce RTX 3080 Vision OC 10GB
2 x Team T-Force Delta RGB 16GB (2x8GB) 3200MHz CL16 DDR4 Black (32GB Total)

Could this have something to do with power coming into the premises?
Internet speed is extremely fast, could there be something that extends to affecting mouse latency? Is that even possible?


Mouse misses clicks, feels as if at times it moves faster than it's supposed to, and other times slower - Feels extremely shaky and unstable when moving to click, you have to move much slower and overthink the movement to make sure you click on or near the target - Like the OP said, if you weren't a gamer you'd have no idea it exists.

The mouse feels like it gravitates more to the upper left of the screen, I start in the middle of my mousepad and I end up almost running off the side of my mousepad every 30 seconds after readjusting the cursor back to the middle of the screen...



Caring1 said:


> Nvidia driver issue.
> Roll back to a previous known working driver or apply the latest hot fix just released.
> 
> 
> ...



Will try this and report back - Thanks,

460.97 Drivers didn't change anything


----------



## Milo_the_Terminator (Dec 21, 2020)

I would make sure if your screen has a game mode option as that is the smoothest for my LG un730


----------



## Spoon30 (Dec 21, 2020)

Running an LG 27GL850, have tried in all different modes on both systems


----------



## Milo_the_Terminator (Dec 22, 2020)

thats a nice 144Hz screen. Under game adjust response time should say fast and in windows your refresh rate should be set to 144 and rechecked if in doubt as it likes to chose the higher resolution and scale. i believe a 1.1 ratio with the desktop is best. and under mouse settings turn the mouse  acceleration to off


----------



## Spoon30 (Dec 22, 2020)

Thanks for the reply - Confirming those settings are already being used. Problem doesn't seem to monitor or mouse setting based.

Micro stutter happens also with sound in-game, on-voice apps and listening to music (even music/videos that is saved on the hard drive).
It also seems to heavily affect keybinds that require more than one key and use the mouse at the same time, such as [shift+scroll wheel down/up] or [shift+SideMouseButton]. These binds often don't trigger any response and require multiple times to be pressed.
FPS in-game seems near-normal on both systems, but you can notice when the micro stutter kicks the mouse around that the game does drop FPS at the same before returning to normal FPS (The 3080 system shouldn't have that problem at all, but it does - That system should be waiting for me).
Can notice it even in apps like word when backspacing multiple lines of text too, every 10-12 characters the stutter kick in and slows down the deletion process and then goes back to normal.

At this point I've dropped about 7k AUD on the new system, monitors, keyboards and mice - Only to have the problem continue


----------



## Spoon30 (Jan 1, 2021)

Can my internet/modem cause mouse/sound input lag? It's the only thing both of my systems have in common, other than the power coming into the house?


----------



## fatehasfans (Jan 6, 2021)

jaggerwild said:


> Re installed windows, deleted all mouse files? So you didn't do a CLEAN install? Is Windows fully up to date? Why are you using a 1200Watt PSU? Water cooled? LOLZ, I assume its the CPU(assuming you do have one) cause you don't say what you are using here.


Hi there,

I've reinstalled Windows (clean) and not just Windows 10, I've tried 7 also. I've tried a lower Watt PSU, the issue is still there and the reason I use a 1200 is because my friend gave it to me. Yes, the CPU is water cooled. 

The problem is still very much there. When I look at other videos of people playing games on inferior setups they have buttery smooth gameplay whereas I have small very subtle-micro stuttering and slight input lag. I get on with it but it has cost me, I now accept I can't compete at the level I want because of it. Better than nothing I suppose but when you spent lots of money on upgrading and moving forward with newer technology you expect improvements not steps backward 

If anyone has any suggestions please let me know, thanks.


----------



## nuggdoctor (Jan 6, 2021)

Are you running you pc through power strips or are you plugged dirctly into the wall? it also sounds like you may have a windows setting on that would make it react likes its in safe mode. If your power delivery is off then the whole pc will suffer.


----------



## SomeOne99h (Jan 6, 2021)

Go to this thread and read:








						[Feature Request] Set Message-Signaled Interrupts
					

Requesting ability to enable message-signaled interrupts on GPU and related devices (sound, USB-C) after driver installation is complete.  On each driver install, Nvidia resets a registry key which disables MSI and forces devices to fall back to legacy INTx mode, presumably for compatibility...




					www.techpowerup.com
				



Download








						NVCleanstall (v1.14.0) Download
					

NVCleanstall lets you customize the NVIDIA GeForce Driver package by removing components that you don't need (or want). This not only keeps things ti




					www.techpowerup.com
				



Then try to enable Message-Signaled Interrupts. Or you could just do it the easy and fast way. Get "*MSI_util_v3.exe*" posted by Solaris17 in that thread (*NOT* MSI Mode Utility.exe that was posted by TikiThorsen) and then enable the setting in the fly, without the need to reinstall graphics drivers and all of that. But you need to restart for the settings to take effect. (You will see a tab about priority, don't change that.)

The post:








						[Feature Request] Set Message-Signaled Interrupts
					

Requesting ability to enable message-signaled interrupts on GPU and related devices (sound, USB-C) after driver installation is complete.  On each driver install, Nvidia resets a registry key which disables MSI and forces devices to fall back to legacy INTx mode, presumably for compatibility...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Byter (Feb 1, 2021)

I have a similar issue. My mouse feels delayed and "on ice". You can't spot it with bare eyes but it's there when you try it yourself. I tried most of the things listed here and still no success. If anybody has any idea please lmk!


----------



## jrm523 (Feb 18, 2021)

I have a 1080TI and have been struggling with this as well. I have tried many drivers over the last year and have done a fresh reinstall of windows. With my particular case, it seems to be significant when YCbCr422 10-bit color is selected. I notice when 422 is selected that my GPU spikes to 25% just to move the mouse. RGB 8 bit and YCbCr422 8 bit work fine. :/

*edit* I just tried enabling hardware scheduling and it fixed my issue once and for all! Wow!


----------



## Papahyooie (Feb 18, 2021)

I may be wrong, but I swear this person is creating multiple accounts, and posting these "puzzles" of mysterious latency and framerate issues. There have been like 30 of them over the past several months to a year. They always follow the same speech patterns, none of the issues are ever identifiable, and when solutions are suggested, they either don't do what you ask and ignore it, you never get the info back that was requested to help, or some random wrench gets thrown in that makes the suggestion not applicable, and the topic spider-webs. If it doesn't get much attention, new members show up and say they have the same problem.

Again, I'm not trying to flame, I could be totally wrong, and I'm sorry for the off-topic. But a mod might want to look into it. I don't suppose it really hurts anything if that's what he's doing, but this isn't a place for ARGs and puzzle games.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Feb 19, 2021)

A DOUBLE NECRO DARN that is impressive


----------



## fatehasfans (Apr 6, 2021)

nuggdoctor said:


> Are you running you pc through power strips or are you plugged dirctly into the wall? it also sounds like you may have a windows setting on that would make it react likes its in safe mode. If your power delivery is off then the whole pc will suffer.


It's plugged directly into the wall.



Papahyooie said:


> I may be wrong, but I swear this person is creating multiple accounts, and posting these "puzzles" of mysterious latency and framerate issues. There have been like 30 of them over the past several months to a year. They always follow the same speech patterns, none of the issues are ever identifiable, and when solutions are suggested, they either don't do what you ask and ignore it, you never get the info back that was requested to help, or some random wrench gets thrown in that makes the suggestion not applicable, and the topic spider-webs. If it doesn't get much attention, new members show up and say they have the same problem.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to flame, I could be totally wrong, and I'm sorry for the off-topic. But a mod might want to look into it. I don't suppose it really hurts anything if that's what he's doing, but this isn't a place for ARGs and puzzle games.


I think you need a tinfoil hat.


----------



## Spoon30 (Apr 6, 2021)

I'm following this thread too, there's been no fix so far, so I'd imagine that the necros are warranted?


----------



## oobymach (Apr 6, 2021)

Have you tried enabling message signaled interrupts like someone said above?

Download msi util v3 from here.

Run as admin, check the box for msi for your gpu and hit apply in the top right. Restart. If you're using an MSI motherboard go into bios during the restart and save and exit without making changes, this will cut latency a bit for your gpu. To confirm it is in msi mode run the util again after restart and your gpu should have a negative number under irq.

To reduce it further go into nvidia control panel, 3d settings, global settings, find low latency mode and select on or ultra and apply.

Mouse input lag is probably either your mouse or the software for it, there are some really good mice and some really bad mice out there, I like logitech because they are great performers for me. 

Also how is your power profile setup? Go to Control Panel\Power Options\Select a high performance one and Change Plan Settings\Change advanced power settings

Go to usb setting, disable selective suspend

Go to pci express, turn off link state power management

Does that improve things?


----------



## Mussels (Apr 6, 2021)

Did you... check the settings on your monitor itself?


----------



## phanbuey (Apr 6, 2021)

i bet it's something plugged into the system or some driver just being a pain.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 6, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> I may be wrong, but I swear this person is creating multiple accounts, and posting these "puzzles" of mysterious latency and framerate issues. There have been like 30 of them over the past several months to a year. They always follow the same speech patterns, none of the issues are ever identifiable, and when solutions are suggested, they either don't do what you ask and ignore it, you never get the info back that was requested to help, or some random wrench gets thrown in that makes the suggestion not applicable, and the topic spider-webs. If it doesn't get much attention, new members show up and say they have the same problem.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to flame, I could be totally wrong, and I'm sorry for the off-topic. But a mod might want to look into it. I don't suppose it really hurts anything if that's what he's doing, but this isn't a place for ARGs and puzzle games.



Well... I think its too easy to write this off as some random troll. I recognize what you're saying, at the same time, most of the time, there IS something off about the whole build/setup.

And 9 out of 10 times this is a PEBKAC problem. The thing is, there are so many software and hardware systems all getting regular updates, and many of them even doing it in idle cpu time, its pretty difficult to identify what's what sometimes. If you can't separate A from B in troubleshooting, its easy to get some sort of latency issue.



jrm523 said:


> I have a 1080TI and have been struggling with this as well. I have tried many drivers over the last year and have done a fresh reinstall of windows. With my particular case, it seems to be significant when YCbCr422 10-bit color is selected. I notice when 422 is selected that my GPU spikes to 25% just to move the mouse. RGB 8 bit and YCbCr422 8 bit work fine. :/
> 
> *edit* I just tried enabling hardware scheduling and it fixed my issue once and for all! Wow!



Example 1.


----------



## AusWolf (Apr 6, 2021)

Old topic, but I see it's still active, so...

Some random things I can think of:

You didn't mention what CPU you have. Is it strong enough to run your games, background apps and Windows services at the same time?
You didn't mention what input devices you have. Since the problem is input related, it's kind of important. If they're wireless, try connecting the dongle to the motherboard's USB 2.0 (black) ports, or the ones physically the nearest to your desk with the least obstruction between the PC and your input devices. If they're bluetooth, try reconnecting them. It might be worth trying a traditional wired keyboard and mouse as well.
Also, how old are your mouse and keyboard? The sensor and buttons might be dirty, and/or weakened by their age, or just generally old designs not suited for modern gaming.
Are your drivers (not only graphics) up to date?
Are you using any background apps? If so, what are them?
Try checking your Windows power settings for USB (selective suspend off), PCI Express (power savings off) and wireless (maximum power) suggested above.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 6, 2021)

Hey OP, I have the same issue-ish and didn't find a fix yet  What I'd suggest you doing would be to disable all RGB and see if the problem persists. If you replaced all hardware and the problem persists try to think about the common ground between all of the hardware. Are you using the same storage? Are you using the same peripherals (even headset, headphone or speakers, as well as any usb hubs, extensions, etc)? Is the problem still occurring when using other OS (such as linux) or when booting the Windows in minimal safe mode?
Unlike OP, I have measured my stutters and have a video with one happening so it's definitely something wrong with my pc or drivers, and not me, so I believe OP saying he has a legit issue with the build.
Edit: 
FPS drop caused by the stutter can be seen in the last 2 graphs here: 



http://imgur.com/a/ySiFaH0

A slow-mo of a stutter occurring (between 0:33 and 0:35): 







 - for me it is really hard to capture it on a video because the frames of the recording ar not synchronized with the game's output frames (60 vs 165, also tried with changing the monitor refresh rate but it's the same), so I was lucky to get this yesterday


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 6, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> Hey OP, I have the same issue-ish and didn't find a fix yet  What I'd suggest you doing would be to disable all RGB and see if the problem persists. If you replaced all hardware and the problem persists try to think about the common ground between all of the hardware. Are you using the same storage? Are you using the same peripherals (even headset, headphone or speakers, as well as any usb hubs, extensions, etc)? Is the problem still occurring when using other OS (such as linux) or when booting the Windows in minimal safe mode?
> Unlike OP, I have measured my stutters and have a video with one happening so it's definitely something wrong with my pc or drivers, and not me, so I believe OP saying he has a legit issue with the build.
> Edit:
> FPS drop caused by the stutter can be seen in the last 2 graphs here:
> ...



To me that looks like a game state change or something network related more so than a stutter that originates from your PC.

I'd chalk this up to the game. The moment your stutter occurs, I see some models on screen dissappear, exactly at 0:33.

Keep in mind game code is not a static thing. Depending on what happens in the game, you can have cpu load spikes as game logic is worked through. And if the game is online, you have an additional factor on top in network latency and communication. If the game has to wait for all clients to deliver some data, you can easily get a stutter.

Load spikes like that one - what you have here is a simple, good old game issue: single thread performance limit.


----------



## phanbuey (Apr 6, 2021)

League doesn't stutter like that on my POS walmart laptop with a R5 3500U in battery saver mode, it's one of the least demanding games out there.  There's definitely something going on specific to that build or that NIC/ network interface.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 6, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> To me that looks like a game state change or something network related more so than a stutter that originates from your PC.
> 
> I'd chalk this up to the game. The moment your stutter occurs, I see some models on screen dissappear, exactly at 0:33.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately this happens on all games I play, doesn't matter if they are single player or multi player. Even more so that this was not happening on my old rig which was significantly slower than what I have now (you can check on my profile the specs)
Edit:


> League doesn't stutter like that on my POS walmart laptop with a R5 3500U in battery saver mode, it's one of the least demanding games out there.  There's definitely something going on specific to that build or that NIC/ network interface.


Thank you


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 6, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> Unfortunately this happens on all games I play, doesn't matter if they are single player or multi player. Even more so that this was not happening on my old rig which was significantly slower than what I have now (you can check on my profile the specs)
> Edit:
> 
> Thank you



Be that as it may, I would focus your solution on that CPU spike, because like it or not, that is why you get that stutter.

Maybe its not the game but stuff happening concurrently, you mentioned RGB lighting, if it has a relation to game code, then certainly that can be a performance killer. USB is slow, especially if 2.0. The last place I'd look in any case, is hardware itself or 'a problem with my computer'. Its the combination of elements that causes stutter, not the elements by themselves.

The easiest way to figure this out:
Return to stock settings on everything.
Build your setup back up one piece at a time. If you used framerate tweaks or other non-stock settings in game or gpu settings, consider those all as separate pieces to analyze until you're back to where you want to be.

In this specific case you may want to swap all RGB peripherals with simpler stuff, just a standard mouse and kb. And uninstall the devices too, including the 3rd party software. Those are generally a cause for issues - shitty code, cheap programmers and tons of legacy.


----------



## phanbuey (Apr 6, 2021)

Simplifying is the way to go -- unplug everything - even case USB headers for the front, everything that you can from the MB, uninstall everything you don't need, kill all the startup stuff and see if the stutter is still there.

There was someone here recently that had stutter that was coming from faulty USB header on the case...


----------



## AusWolf (Apr 6, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> To me that looks like a game state change or something network related more so than a stutter that originates from your PC.
> 
> I'd chalk this up to the game. The moment your stutter occurs, I see some models on screen dissappear, exactly at 0:33.
> 
> ...


I agree.

To OP and @SweetPhilosophy: There is always some kind of stutter in all games on all platforms. If your PC is strong enough, you won't notice them, but they are there. Look at frametime pages in hardware reviews. You won't see any single game on any single hardware that produces a static framerate. In the example above, when a game asks for assets to be added/removed, or levels to be loaded, your CPU load will spike. Even if your CPU is strong enough to handle the load, executing code takes time, resulting in a frametime spike. You can reduce it with a stronger CPU, but you can't eliminate it entirely. It's just the nature of things.

My general rule of thumb: More GPU-bound scenarios usually result in lower, but more stable framerates, while more CPU-bound ones look like stutters, as it mostly affects adding assets and loading times. More powerful graphics cards and older / less demanding games create more CPU-bound scenarios. Again, I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 7, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> Hey OP, I have the same issue-ish and didn't find a fix yet  What I'd suggest you doing would be to disable all RGB and see if the problem persists. If you replaced all hardware and the problem persists try to think about the common ground between all of the hardware. Are you using the same storage? Are you using the same peripherals (even headset, headphone or speakers, as well as any usb hubs, extensions, etc)? Is the problem still occurring when using other OS (such as linux) or when booting the Windows in minimal safe mode?
> Unlike OP, I have measured my stutters and have a video with one happening so it's definitely something wrong with my pc or drivers, and not me, so I believe OP saying he has a legit issue with the build.
> Edit:
> FPS drop caused by the stutter can be seen in the last 2 graphs here:
> ...


your PC specs are so close to mine they should be almost the same in performance (my 3090 is undervolted to 3080 performance)

in that video you can easily see the lag occurs at the same time those models disappear, so thats a good focal point: loading and unloading assets
disconnect your mech drives, keep preferably just the OS drive with league on it and see what happens. that stutter reminds me of my good old WD green drives and their hardware power down timers lagging out my PC every time they woke up


----------



## SomeOne99h (Apr 7, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy,
Here is something easy and quick to try before doing the other ways:
-Go to the motherboard's bios and disable all of your HDDs. and then see from there? One of your storage devices seems to put your system that way.

If the problem still exists, I will do this myself:
-I will *UNPLUG* all of the storage devices, except that 1x 1TB M2 SSD, and then install both OS and games on it. And then see from there?

-Take a look at the motherboard manual and look at the storage section. Maybe you did something wrong.
-Get a tool from the vendor of your storage devices to scan for storage health.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 7, 2021)

and i'm gunna state something else semi obvious:
Reset your BIOS, leave it defaults  other than XMP (fan/boot settings allowed)
reinstall NV driver with clean install option
uninstall the bloaty crap you want but dont need - RGB software, overclocking software, anything that runs in the tray icons and boots with windows. one of em could be fucky, and if nothing else its a good chance to clean up - you'll lose em all if you have to reinstall windows anyway


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 7, 2021)

I wonder if the penny dropped 

This is what a gamer PC tray should look like. You can get even less, but PowerToys is one of those productivity things I really like. And it doesn't cost anything if you don't use desktop zoning.





Rivatuner, Afterburner, Windows sound options, Defender, NV settings, Realtek and Network.
Everything else is clutter.

And guess what... even this is not a 100% stutter free gaming experience. 98%? Close enough.

Another sanity check is what your idle PC looks like in task manager. This is how it should be:


----------



## xtreemchaos (Apr 7, 2021)

heres a long shot- a few months ago after a win update i had micro stuttering in vr, the short- windows game mode had rearmed its self after the update and was causing the stuttering i turned it back off and everthing was back to being stutter free.


----------



## Deleted member 205776 (Apr 7, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Everything else is clutter.


My Argus Monitor is offended

I could have a million things running there and my task manager would look like this on idle:







24 threads don't really care about what's running.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 7, 2021)

Alexa said:


> My Argus Monitor is offended
> 
> I could have a million things running there and my task manager would look like this on idle:
> 
> ...



Looks peachy. No disk activity is the biggest one. Its storage that usually kills system responsiveness especially in games with streamed assets. And then data transport through the system. ANY component you hit along the way that is otherwise busy doing stuff, can increase latency.

(To stress how easily you can get stutter somewhere and how hard it is to kill every single one)


----------



## c2DDragon (Apr 7, 2021)

Hey ! I wonder if people having this issue have their Windows power plan on high performance or on balanced (normal), if in high performance, do the stutters continue ?
If so, maybe it could be core parking while not in high performance mode ? Some reading here :








						Why does Windows 10 have CPU core parking disabled?
					

Why does Windows 10 come with core parking disabled?  It seems to me, that core parking is good in most cases. Especially considering Turbo Boost does not work until some cores are parked.  Also wh...




					superuser.com
				



& there :








						How to Access Hidden Power and Processor Options in Windows 10
					

What means are there to access and change hidden power and processor options in Windows 10? A way to find information on hidden globally unique identifier (GUID) power and processor options. A way...




					superuser.com
				




Also what's the state of the C-State feature in the bios ? Auto ? Activated ?
C1E will halt the cores when they are doing "nothing" for a short time but if they have the option to enhance it (in the bios), the halted cores will go to the lowest frequency with a low voltage, then, when they go back in C0 (in action), going from the lowest frequency to a normal (or highest) one, can be the reason of the stutters.
https://software.intel.com/content/...nergy-analysis-metrics-reference/c-state.html

The more the C-State is, the more your CPU cores will have latency before going in full speed (C0) but C1 is good enough be kept. Enhanced C1 (C1E) can be garbage depending on the bios.
Then in game, your cores would not go deeper than C1 so don't worry about the other ones, there should be a C-State Limit option in the bios to test C0/C1E as the deepest C-State if you are worried. With Enhanced disabled.

If the power plan is set to highest performance, no core should be parked by Windows so it could be C-State, disable C-State in the bios and test. If it's what kills your games, try another bios, if it's a nope, disable enhanced C-state only then.

If nothing helps, I can't help 

_[Edit] : Missing words and derp intel link about C-State, yeah it's not documented enough but hey. Also I shouldn't post before re-reading what I wrote before having enough coffee _


----------



## Deleted member 205776 (Apr 7, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Looks peachy. No disk activity is the biggest one. Its storage that usually kills system responsiveness especially in games with streamed assets. And then data transport through the system. ANY component you hit along the way that is otherwise busy doing stuff, can increase latency.
> 
> (To stress how easily you can get stutter somewhere and how hard it is to kill every single one)


All my games are on my three SSDs, while my OS runs on the C:\ drive (980 Pro NVMe). Drive activity doesn't even put a dent in my system.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Apr 7, 2021)

me too, ive not as fast c drive as you but the same applcation of drives.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 7, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Be that as it may, I would focus your solution on that CPU spike, because like it or not, that is why you get that stutter.
> 
> Maybe its not the game but stuff happening concurrently, you mentioned RGB lighting, if it has a relation to game code, then certainly that can be a performance killer. USB is slow, especially if 2.0. The last place I'd look in any case, is hardware itself or 'a problem with my computer'. Its the combination of elements that causes stutter, not the elements by themselves.
> 
> ...


I have returned to stock everything as it's the same. The only nonstock thing that I had anyways was the DOCP for RAM and fan curves. Returning them to default didn't amount to anything, only some performance loss because of lower RAM frequencies.



phanbuey said:


> Simplifying is the way to go -- unplug everything - even case USB headers for the front, everything that you can from the MB, uninstall everything you don't need, kill all the startup stuff and see if the stutter is still there.
> 
> There was someone here recently that had stutter that was coming from faulty USB header on the case...


Tried removing case usb, case fan controller, useless peripherals and using no rgb mouse and keyboard together with a clean windows install, same thing - the stutter is present in games.



AusWolf said:


> I agree.
> 
> To OP and @SweetPhilosophy: There is always some kind of stutter in all games on all platforms. If your PC is strong enough, you won't notice them, but they are there. Look at frametime pages in hardware reviews. You won't see any single game on any single hardware that produces a static framerate. In the example above, when a game asks for assets to be added/removed, or levels to be loaded, your CPU load will spike. Even if your CPU is strong enough to handle the load, executing code takes time, resulting in a frametime spike. You can reduce it with a stronger CPU, but you can't eliminate it entirely. It's just the nature of things.
> 
> My general rule of thumb: More GPU-bound scenarios usually result in lower, but more stable framerates, while more CPU-bound ones look like stutters, as it mostly affects adding assets and loading times. More powerful graphics cards and older / less demanding games create more CPU-bound scenarios. Again, I wouldn't worry about it.


I'm aware that fps can fluctuate and it's hard for it to be a static number all the time, but this is different. More so that on my old rig I was running League of Legends flawlessly on a 144hz monitor and never experienced something like this. And league is not a resource heavy game
Unfortunately I am worrying about it because I didn't spend 2500euros on this rig for it to stutter on a 11 year old low demanding game  



Mussels said:


> your PC specs are so close to mine they should be almost the same in performance (my 3090 is undervolted to 3080 performance)
> 
> in that video you can easily see the lag occurs at the same time those models disappear, so thats a good focal point: loading and unloading assets
> disconnect your mech drives, keep preferably just the OS drive with league on it and see what happens. that stutter reminds me of my good old WD green drives and their hardware power down timers lagging out my PC every time they woke up


This is something I also noticed, the stutter occurs when loading and unloading assets (but then again - not all the times). I already disconnected HDDs and other drives, as well as installing windows and league on m2 ssd, sata ssd and on both HDDs, the stutter is always there =/ 



SomeOne99h said:


> SweetPhilosophy,
> Here is something easy and quick to try before doing the other ways:
> -Go to the motherboard's bios and disable all of your HDDs. and then see from there? One of your storage devices seems to put your system that way.
> 
> ...


At the moment I ordered a Samsung EVO 970 1TB and I'm going to disconnect everything from my pc and install only this drive, install windows and league on it and test.



Mussels said:


> and i'm gunna state something else semi obvious:
> Reset your BIOS, leave it defaults  other than XMP (fan/boot settings allowed)
> reinstall NV driver with clean install option
> uninstall the bloaty crap you want but dont need - RGB software, overclocking software, anything that runs in the tray icons and boots with windows. one of em could be fucky, and if nothing else its a good chance to clean up - you'll lose em all if you have to reinstall windows anyway


I have reset it multiple times and it's the same with either all defaults or DOCP enabled. The only options I had modified in BIOS anyways were only DOCP activated and fan curves.
I have reinstalled display drivers multiple times using DDU, in safe mode and disconnected from the internet, and reinstalling it using a clean install, as well as installing all drivers since the first one which supports my GPU came out (I literally went and installed each one of them until the to date driver and tested)
The stutters occurs on clean windows install with only Nvidia drivers installed. The only thing software related I was able to fix was a stutter that was occurring when opening games, which was fixed by disabling RGB on my GPU (apparently armoury crate and rgbfusion were trying to modify the GPU RGB and they were conflicting), but unfortunately this did not fix the ingame stutter. I do not have other RGB on my components, other than on headset (by default I have it turned off anyway), mouse and keyboard, but I have tried disabling all of it, as well as not installing the Logitech G Hub, unfortunately it's the same.



Vayra86 said:


> I wonder if the penny dropped
> 
> This is what a gamer PC tray should look like. You can get even less, but PowerToys is one of those productivity things I really like. And it doesn't cost anything if you don't use desktop zoning.
> 
> ...


I agree  I have even less 
System tray: 



http://imgur.com/a/xseOnMv

Task manager: 



http://imgur.com/a/4nE1wxD

On my old rig I had less performance but league was constant 144fps at 144hz without any kind of stuttering  



xtreemchaos said:


> heres a long shot- a few months ago after a win update i had micro stuttering in vr, the short- windows game mode had rearmed its self after the update and was causing the stuttering i turned it back off and everthing was back to being stutter free.


The stutter for me it's still present with it either on or off  At the moment it's off anyways, I've read some forums where people fixed the stutter turning it on, so yeah 



c2DDragon said:


> Hey ! I wonder if people having this issue have their Windows power plan on high performance or on balanced (normal), if in high performance, do the stutters continue ?
> If so, maybe it could be core parking while not in high performance mode ? Some reading here :
> 
> 
> ...


It is the same for me in both balanced, high performace and ultra (or ultimate?) performance. Tried them all.
CPU Core parking is disabled from windows, all cores perform as expected.
The C-State feature in BIOS is set on Auto, however I have tried disabling it and there is no different when it comes to this stutter. However I did not find enhanced C-state option, I'm not really sure how that would look like under my BIOS because there was nothing similar to that where I have the Global C-States option. 
I also have the latest BIOS version and tried different versions since I first noticed the stutter until now - I basically updated it every time there was a new version but none of the version fixed it  

Thank you everyone for you replies here and sorry for my late reply!! 
Your feedback was and is most appreciated and I hope that even if I'm not able to fix it we're in some good discussion here and some of the advices will help other people.
I actually searched the entire internet and all possible forums and that's when I started posting my own posts - that's why I'm saying that I literally tried almost everything that is there.
My next steps are in the following order: 
1. I ordered a new M2 SSD, a Samsung 970 EVO 1TB and I'm going to remove every storage I have in my PC, together with SATA and power cables (idk maybe cables are faulty), install it and install windows and league on it and test.
2. Disassemble the PC and assemble it again and test it out in open air.
3. Order a new Motherboard and/or CPU and test. I have already ruled out GPU, RAM and PSU as being the cause because I have tried my GPU and RAM in a friend's computer and his in mine - no stutter on his side but my stutter continued; I also bought a new, better PSU, and ran it for a week while the stutter continued, in the end I returned it since it didn't fix it 
4. No idea what I could do from this point on?

Thank you again


----------



## c2DDragon (Apr 7, 2021)

I was thinking about the pagefile.
You can see the settings typing *SystemPropertiesPerformance.exe* into Run (Win + R keys), run it, go to advanced, Virtual Memory, change.
If you got "Automatically manage paging file size for all drives" checked, untick it, choose your drive, click on "System managed size" then the "Set" button, "OK" and reboot.
If you already are in "System managed size", then try to set your pagefile in "Automatically manage paging file size for all drives".
If nothing changes, you can try the "No paging file" to see if it comes from this, for the fun of having a nice crash in a game


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 7, 2021)

c2DDragon said:


> I was thinking about the pagefile.
> You can see the settings typing *SystemPropertiesPerformance.exe* into Run (Win + R keys), run it, go to advanced, Virtual Memory, change.
> If you got "Automatically manage paging file size for all drives" checked, untick it, choose your drive, click on "System managed size" then the "Set" button, "OK" and reboot.
> If you already are in "System managed size", then try to set your pagefile in "Automatically manage paging file size for all drives".
> If nothing changes, you can try the "No paging file" to see if it comes from this, for the fun of having a nice crash in a game


Hello! I have changed all the options and it makes no difference. At the moment is set to "Automatically manage paging file size for all drives", by default after a clean windows install. Thanks for advice!


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 7, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> I have returned to stock everything as it's the same. The only nonstock thing that I had anyways was the DOCP for RAM and fan curves. Returning them to default didn't amount to anything, only some performance loss because of lower RAM frequencies.
> 
> 
> Tried removing case usb, case fan controller, useless peripherals and using no rgb mouse and keyboard together with a clean windows install, same thing - the stutter is present in games.
> ...


@Papahyooie  your judgment, sir? Trolling or real? Not to put you on the spot there, but I think this handily spells out how difficult a stutter problem really is to be conclusive about. Still - I agree its good to be vigilant.

@SweetPhilosophy
First order of business: stop spending money on this rig. You can make do with less and still get the performance right, this isn't a performance problem in terms of hardware. Its like you say: old game. How the F. I agree. The problem is finding the issue and your steps are going in the right direction, even if the SSD might not be required, you can at least chalk it off as a source and SSD performance is never wasted really.

Clean install with your new storage, that is what I would do. Then you build back up from scratch. I'd not jump on step 2 and 3. There is no reason a component/assembly fault is causing such a minor stutter behaviour and no other symptoms like shutdowns and CTDs. Impossible. From a clean OS install, the next step is installing drivers, double check chipset drivers and getting stuff updated. Make no mistake - you will want to check your game performance after an OS update too. Windows has a tendency to return settings to defaults after big feature updates.

But the big one here: everything STOCK. You revert your BIOS to optimized defaults. The whole shebang.

Another route to explore is how an old game actually does with hardware thats way beyond overpowered for it. I mean, LoL SHOULD have something to mitigate that, but if a game is very light and FPS is running uncapped or very high, a load spike can cause stutter simply due to major frametime variance from the high FPS target, if you catch my drift. The gap between normal and lows is simply bigger so it is more pronounced.

Testing with different hardware is testing a different system. Pointless. You want your solution within the hardware setup you have.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 7, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> @Papahyooie  your judgment, sir? Trolling or real? Not to put you on the spot there, but I think this handily spells out how difficult a stutter problem really is to be conclusive about. Still - I agree its good to be vigilant.
> 
> @SweetPhilosophy
> First order of business: stop spending money on this rig. You can make do with less and still get the performance right, this isn't a performance problem in terms of hardware. Its like you say: old game. How the F. I agree. The problem is finding the issue and your steps are going in the right direction, even if the SSD might not be required, you can at least chalk it off as a source and SSD performance is never wasted really.
> ...



Sounds good, thanks for input. Tomorrow when the SSD will arrive I will clean install OS without anything else but the essentials: 1 monitor, wired keyboard and mouse and that's it - no internet, no headset, no speakers, no other storage, no usb cables, no fan controller, no case wires connected to mobo. Before installing windows I return everything from BIOS to stock settings and after it is installed I will also disable windows' automatic drivers update before connecting to the internet.

The problem occurs in every games unfortunately. I also play Apex Legends a lot and notice it there to, as well as Warzone, Cold War and to name some singleplayer games - Aim lab, Immortals Fenyx Rising, It takes two, AC Valhalla. In league I noticed it first because I play it since launch and I played it on 2 older PCs and I play it kinda competitively and I immediately notice if something is off. I actually tried on different refresh rates as well, raging from 60 (min) to 165 (max), the stutter still occur but it's harder to notice on lower refresh rates - the FPS drop is actually a side effect of the stutter and League captures it because of how their FPS counter outputs data (something of an average between last times) - in another games for example, Apex legends, the stutter still occurs but I can't see it in FPS after that because the FPS counter there updates in real time (I would say, I'm aware it's not realtime) so it is really hard to catch like 2 digits changing so fast.

Trust me I wish I was trolling but I'm not, I know it's not a BIG PROBLEM and I have really good benchmark scores and all that but this little thing drives me mad and hopefully I can fix it. My friend who I tested different components with didn't see the actual stutter but saw the side effect - FPS drop - after it happened, only after I showed him the slow motion video he was able to observe it better when it happened
Thanks for your implication guys!!


----------



## xtreemchaos (Apr 7, 2021)

bud it could be worse trust me stuttering on a monitor is bad but in VR its painfull it make some puke. hope you get it fixed.


----------



## Deleted member 205776 (Apr 7, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> bud it could be worse trust me stuttering on a monitor is bad but in VR its painfull it make some puke. hope you get it fixed.


can confirm, i spent 18 hours in VR my first day and felt nothing, but once it started stuttering it gave me headaches


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 7, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> @Papahyooie  your judgment, sir? Trolling or real? Not to put you on the spot there, but I think this handily spells out how difficult a stutter problem really is to be conclusive about. Still - I agree its good to be vigilant.



I'm sorry, I know that this whole thing is technically off topic, and I wasn't going to continue the discussion. But since I'm asked directly... As I said in my post before, I don't KNOW that this is fake. All I know is, I've gone through nearly identical threads before, with brand new users, and this thread follows the exact same pattern with different hardware and a different game. Perhaps it's real, and if that's the case, I'm sorry to the OP that you got caught in the crossfire of what someone else is (or maybe isn't) doing. I'm not accusing you of anything. Just saying the mods might want to check. I suppose it's not hurting anything even if he is doing what I'm saying, but it *is* technically against the rules. If he's not, I'm sorry. I truly don't mean to flame. Maybe he just happens to write and act exactly like several other brand new users with mysterious latency and stuttering issues.

As for the problem itself, my advice would be to capture some ACTUAL frame time data using something like nvidia's Frameview, rather than relying on a video. The truth is, many games have waits in their code on certain events like loading of assets and network transmissions. These can PRESENT to the user's eyes as stutters when in reality the graphics card is spitting out frames... it's just the same frame over and over. (Obviously I'm talking to the OP here, since the "other guy" you're replying to there actually did this.) But even with his frametimes, we also need to see what his network is doing at the same time. Other than that, you've given him good advice. We will see how it goes from here.

The problem is, I've gone around this circle several times in the past, and none of the suggestions that could actually solve the problem were actually ever heeded. If @SweetPhilosophy does what you tell him to, he'll likely get his problem solved. We will see.

EDIT: and don't get me wrong... I get it. I'm very sensitive to framerate myself. Can't even go to the theatre anymore because it will make me sick. So IF your problem is real, I hope it gets fixed.  

EDIT AGAIN: @SweetPhilosophy , looking closer at your frame data, your GPU is sitting at less than half usage, your active CPU cores are basically pegging out. Seems a classic example of CPU cache bottleneck. I realize that you have a monster CPU, but the game probably can't use any more cores (as evidenced by the large amount of "sleeping" cores) and the ones it is using are getting pegged. (Pegged at the peaks, but very stop/go rather than a solid ~99% usage, which says to me the cores themselves are not being fed fast enough.) Going down the chain, could also indicate your ram isn't feeding the CPU fast enough. Troubleshoot ram speeds, turn off xmp etc etc. I'm sure this has all already been said. Do a mem check. Going further down the chain, storage. From what little I read, it looks like you've gotten rid of any mechanical drives and are using good SSDs, so that's good. Make sure you're using a connector that is connected to your CPU and not to the south bridge. (sata/pcie/whatever) to reduce latency there. And last, as I said... make sure your network ping/jitter is good, because a lot of games have suspect code that can cause issues exactly like that.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 7, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> I'm sorry, I know that this whole thing is technically off topic, and I wasn't going to continue the discussion. But since I'm asked directly... As I said in my post before, I don't KNOW that this is fake. All I know is, I've gone through nearly identical threads before, with brand new users, and this thread follows the exact same pattern with different hardware and a different game. Perhaps it's real, and if that's the case, I'm sorry to the OP that you got caught in the crossfire of what someone else is (or maybe isn't) doing. I'm not accusing you of anything. Just saying the mods might want to check. I suppose it's not hurting anything even if he is doing what I'm saying, but it *is* technically against the rules. If he's not, I'm sorry. I truly don't mean to flame. Maybe he just happens to write and act exactly like several other brand new users with mysterious latency and stuttering issues.
> 
> As for the problem itself, my advice would be to capture some ACTUAL frame time data using something like nvidia's Frameview, rather than relying on a video. The truth is, many games have waits in their code on certain events like loading of assets and network transmissions. These can PRESENT to the user's eyes as stutters when in reality the graphics card is spitting out frames... it's just the same frame over and over. (Obviously I'm talking to the OP here, since the "other guy" you're replying to there actually did this.) But even with his frametimes, we also need to see what his network is doing at the same time. Other than that, you've given him good advice. We will see how it goes from here.
> 
> ...


Sorry beforehand if I broke any rule - I also created a new thread but got no replies there and kind of "parasited" this thread and another one. As I said I started asking questions specific to my issue and what I've troubleshoot after I tried almost everything I could find by myself - I started other threads on different forums as well as talking to Nvidia customer support (which told me to try my gpu in another pc and another gpu in my pc - which was still the same and on the other system there was no stutter) and AMD customer support (which basically told me I did everything there was and told me to send the CPU to warranty), not sure if I should share the threads since that could be against rules.

I can also confirm to mods I'm a legit person I guess? And with all the recording stuff I'm ready to prove more that my issue exists and is legit.

I'm in to test and record anything you guys want or need to understand and observe the issue - I installed the Frameview just now but I'm not sure how to use it. Should I just leave the overlay and record a game? I'm aware that there are loading times in games that could happen while actually gaming and I'm aware of different techniques of loading assets such as lazy asset loading which could cause problems like this BUT my biggest issue is I wasn't experiencing anything of this kind on my old rig so this is what makes me think it's something related to some hardware or some drivers or I don't know.

Network should be good I have really high speeds and constant traffic, let me know how to record it best and I will share - although it also happens when playing in singleplayer and disconnected from the internet (played some Immortals Fenyx Rising and disabled the internet connection to test at some point).

League is not a demanding game so I'd say GPU not having a stress with it is expected - also the CPU 2 cores bottleneck still wouldn't explain it happening in other games which use multiple cores, such as Apex Legends, Warzone or Cold War, right? I could record a game of Apex as well so we could see how the graphs behave there. Also when I'm running only CPU benchmarks such as Cinebench or prime95 the system doesn't stutter even if the CPU is maxed out. I even tried playing a game of league while running prime95 and the game ran perfectly except for the random stutter which was still present

Memtest86 returned no errors after several nights when I ran it (just to be sure) and as well it happens with other RAM sticks and it doesn't happen on another system with my ram (same CPU and exactly same MOBO actually).

I will come back tomorrow with results of the new SSD and if I can do it tonight I will record with FrameView or anything or any game you guys think it's best to record.

Thanks again very much!!


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 7, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> Sorry beforehand if I broke any rule - I also created a new thread but got no replies there and kind of "parasited" this thread and another one. As I said I started asking questions specific to my issue and what I've troubleshoot after I tried almost everything I could find by myself - I started other threads on different forums as well as talking to Nvidia customer support (which told me to try my gpu in another pc and another gpu in my pc - which was still the same and on the other system there was no stutter) and AMD customer support (which basically told me I did everything there was and told me to send the CPU to warranty), not sure if I should share the threads since that could be against rules.
> 
> I can also confirm to mods I'm a legit person I guess? And with all the recording stuff I'm ready to prove more that my issue exists and is legit.
> 
> ...



You don't have to prove anything to me. If the mods care, they'll look into it, if not they won't. I was more referring to the OP anyway, you just happen to be one of the new users who showed up in the thread (which is part of the pattern of what I believe to be "fake" threads, at least in the past.) So... sorry if you legit have an issue lol. I don't mean to dissuade you from seeking help. Far from it, in fact. I care more that someone who DOESN'T have a legit issue might be taking the community's resources away from those that do have legit issues. 

To be honest, Frameview won't give YOU anything that you haven't already gotten. Was referring to the OP to provide actual data. I'm more inclined to believe your issue is real since you DID in fact provide frametime data. So you're good. I wouldn't bother with frameview, you've already got what you need. Though, I'd run more tests in more games and share here so we can see them as well. Your data, while not synced up with gameplay video, is more useful anyway if it's not used in conjunction with recording software, which brings its own issues. 

Yea league is not a graphical intensive game. Unfortunately, I don't play it so I have no clue what typical CPU usage patterns look like, nor do I know what framerates are generally considered "good." But it stands to reason that you WILL be cpu bottlenecked (or some other bottleneck) in the game since it's not graphically intensive. More games with more data would def be helpful. 

I'd wait and see what results you get after setting up a completely clean machine like @Vayra86 said, and go from there if it's still around.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 7, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> League is not a demanding game so I'd say GPU not having a stress with it is expected - also the CPU 2 cores bottleneck still wouldn't explain it happening in other games which use multiple cores, such as Apex Legends, Warzone or Cold War, right? I could record a game of Apex as well so we could see how the graphs behave there. Also when I'm running only CPU benchmarks such as Cinebench or prime95 the system doesn't stutter even if the CPU is maxed out. I even tried playing a game of league while running prime95 and the game ran perfectly except for the random stutter which was still present



This is a wrong assumption.

Game logic is a realtime process and it directly feeds what you see on screen. Game threads are not - even if your OSD says so - capable of splitting up any way they like to get maximum performance out of a CPU. A cinebench run however, does exactly that. And if you want to do something in Windows alongside those stress tests, unless you fully peg the memory, you will see Windows find ways to schedule that right for you and minimize the latency - it can happily utilize different cores for different threads. That's interaction between separate applications - another radical difference from your in-game situation: the only management for performance is done by the game engine.

Many games even today are still single- or X- number of threads limited. It really depends on the engine used and how well newer APIs are implemented. Older games will run into CPU single thread bottlenecking simply because the GPU performance has increased leaps and bounds, but that single core hasn't.

A simple frame limiter can solve stutter in that case. Yes, maybe LoL doesn't like being run over, say 100, or 120 fps. I can also imagine there is a relation to server tick rates.

In my personal experience, for good, smooth gaming, you never really want to chase the _highest_ performance number, you want to hit the number that fits the application at hand and the capabilities of your system alongside it. There are _tons of games_ with limitations in FPS. Some kick you to 30. Others do 60 vsynced only. Again others happily run 1000 fps. And many games allow you to go anywhere, but there are no guarantees you get what you want.

Similar stuff occurs with monitor refresh rates and ingame FPS. You want them synced, and if not, you want half- sync or something along those lines, so the frame times are evened out and aligned with the refresh of the monitor. That, in the end, is key: frametimes need to align. Peaking high doesn't help that at all  Also, its good to admire the precision of frame delivery as it is even with a stutter here or there. We're talking a dozen or less _milliseconds _in precision here, in a continuous sequence of calculations. Code isn't perfect.



SweetPhilosophy said:


> Sorry beforehand if I broke any rule - I also created a new thread but got no replies there and kind of "parasited" this thread and another one.



Wouldn't worry about that - this can easily evolve into a bigger topic regarding stutter, no OP seems particularly active, rather people necro'd it


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> I agree  I have even less
> System tray:
> 
> 
> ...


Wait is that F.lux?

F.lux is a known cause of stutter

One relevant quote from an early result
"I tried disabling f.lux in its menu but that didn't help, I have to completely close f.lux to recover."


----------



## SomeOne99h (Apr 8, 2021)

Nice find *Mussels*!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... and what is that icon in the top-right?
Can you keep your system as simple as possible?
Completely uninstall f.lux and then restart even though they didn't say you have to restart, just in case if somehow it needed a restart for your system to take effect, who knows?

Also, what else are you installing in this machine?
Try uninstalling nvidia's HD audio then disabling it.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

SomeOne99h said:


> Nice find *Mussels*!
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... and what is that icon in the top-right?
> Can you keep your system as simple as possible?
> Completely uninstall f.lux and then restart even though they didn't say you have to restart, just in case if somehow it needed a restart for your system to take effect, who knows?
> ...


top right is logitechs software, i run that and GFE which is his other icon with no issues


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> This is a wrong assumption.
> 
> Game logic is a realtime process and it directly feeds what you see on screen. Game threads are not - even if your OSD says so - capable of splitting up any way they like to get maximum performance out of a CPU. A cinebench run however, does exactly that. And if you want to do something in Windows alongside those stress tests, unless you fully peg the memory, you will see Windows find ways to schedule that right for you and minimize the latency - it can happily utilize different cores for different threads. That's interaction between separate applications - another radical difference from your in-game situation: the only management for performance is done by the game engine.
> 
> ...


Indeed, you are right on how games work. League indeed has big issues if you exceed like 300-400 FPS, things will randomly appear and disappear from the screen and stuff like that. 165 fps shouldn't be a problem, I have friends running it at 240fps on 240hz monitor and they have 0 issues. And even myself I was running it 144 fps on 144hz monitor on my old rig and everything ran flawlessly. Even more so that I tried changing the refresh rate of the monitor from 165hz to 60, 100, 120, 144 and granted the game will be choppier at lower refresh rates, which is expected, but the stutter will still be there, so I don't thing this is related to the game code and how it runs at common high refresh rates - even pro players play it at 144-240hz and they don't have any issue.
And I agree, it is amazing how so many calculations are done in such a small time frame with such accurate results  wonder what future holds



Mussels said:


> Wait is that F.lux?
> 
> F.lux is a known cause of stutter
> 
> ...





SomeOne99h said:


> Nice find *Mussels*!
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... and what is that icon in the top-right?
> Can you keep your system as simple as possible?
> Completely uninstall f.lux and then restart even though they didn't say you have to restart, just in case if somehow it needed a restart for your system to take effect, who knows?
> ...


Yes, that is F.lux, but unfortunately it is not the cause of my stutter. I have disabled it many times in the past thinking that could be the cause. The stutter is also present after I cleaned installed windows so I didn't have flux installed. I have also tried fiddling with its settings, especially the hardware acceleration related one - no result. I also had it installed on my old rig and I had no issues with it except when it was changing colors and that indeed caused stuttering - this doesn't happen on this new build as it is more powerful. 
The top-right is logitech G hub for my mouse and keyboard - I also tried without it installed and it makes no difference. 
At the moment I had Nvidia HD Audio installed but disabled - I disabled the windows automatic drivers install and removed it. In the past I have also uninstalled the default HD audio driver and the headset audio driver - heck, at one point I have uninstalled every audio driver that I had and played with no sound and the stutter still continued.
I'll be honest with you guys and tell you I have a lot of random stuff installed now, which I don't usually have, just because of all the things I tried software related - most notable things related to asus armoury crate with rog live services and all that as well as rgbfusion with rgb software for the ram and such. My PC is with as little as possible RGB but I installed them to disabled it completely (and apparently it fixed a freeze that I was having when opening games)

I didn't receive a message from the courier company yet so I don't think the SSD will arrive today, but in the meanwhile I have recorded a game of League of Legends with more graphs in RTSS, and a game of Apex Legends. I have uninstalled flux, g hub, nvidia hd audio drivers and restarted PC. I had nothing else running while playing except MSI Afterburner without any settings changed and RTSS for monitoring.
I'm also logging the RTSS recording file on my current M2 SSD to avoid any writing issues that could bloat my system (even though they shouldn't matter, but I'm trying to eliminate every little thing)
A league game: 



http://imgur.com/a/KGiM5qN

 . Happening at the beginning several times and then towards the end. Can be seen in the frametime graphs which correlates to a small dip in fps in the graph above that.
An Apex game: 



http://imgur.com/a/5VWPp0h

 . Note: I have highlighted when a stutter occurred vs a normal lower fps happened, Apex is more demanding than League and I'm playing it on very high 1440p so I'm not expecting it to run at capped FPS all the time, which is normal, however the stutters are different and this can be seen in frametime with the problematic frames taking a whooping ~200ms to be rendered (considering 222 is max when alt tabbed to start and close RTSS recording). I also think the first frametime spike is a stutter but I'm not 100% sure as I wasn't paying attention in the beginning. I also won this match lol 

Another thing I noticed is that on this run of RTSS I recorded less stuttering than on my previous runs. The different thing I did was that I put the recording of RTSS on another drive than C (which is there by default). This kind of makes me think it could be a storage problem in the end but I'm not sure. I'm waiting for the new SSD to arrive to test and post more results.

Thanks guys!!


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

Just confirming based on the quote i got earlier, did you *uninstall* F.lux and leave it removed? please leave it off the system entirely for now

You could have more than one cause of stutter and remove one to replace it with another so we really want things clean

Can you trigger a stutter outside of a game? Like if you fire up OCCT's power test (or just CPU or GPU test alone) would the mouse stutter, or youtube?
What media are you installing Windows from? Legit MS OS or modded ones? what build?
Are you installing Windows in UEFI/GPT mode, or CSM/MBR mode?


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 8, 2021)

We really cannot troubleshoot your hardware. The specifics are up to you.
I looked around if we said it, it has been going since #5th post - you have to get latencymon(or dpc latency whichever suits you best) in order.
You cannot have a responsive computer if it is >250. It is just not possible. If you have 100 it is good, if it is 50 even better. The keypoint is it has to remain there, if there are any jumps - a higher level latency eithout those spikes is preferrable to a lower latency with the spikes.
I had a G600 that would spike if I set the presets on the mouse memory. You have to troubleshoot all causative drivers - no less - before we can remark usefully.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Just confirming based on the quote i got earlier, did you *uninstall* F.lux and leave it removed? please leave it off the system entirely for now
> 
> You could have more than one cause of stutter and remove one to replace it with another so we really want things clean
> 
> ...


Yes, I confirm I uninstalled Flux, restarted PC and also left it removed, as well as removing logitech's G hub.
I actually tried many times to trigger a stutter outside of a game but I can't. At the moment I'm running OCCT CPU test and the mouse doesn't stutter, not even youtube. Yes, some things are slower like loading my youtube feed but mouse is fine as well as running videos from youtube. No video or audio stutter.
Currently I'm having Windows 10 Pro version 20H2 build 19042.906 and it is installed in UEFI/GPT. Downloaded from microsoft.com and created a bootable stick with their MediaCreationTool20H2 which also downloads the windows image and prepares the stick

Edit:


mtcn77 said:


> We really cannot troubleshoot your hardware. The specifics are up to you.
> I looked around if we said it, it has been going since #5th post - you have to get latencymon(or dpc latency whichever suits you best) in order.
> You cannot have a responsive computer if it is >250. It is just not possible. If you have 100 it is good, if it is 50 even better. The keypoint is it has to remain there, if there are any jumps - a higher level latency eithout those spikes is preferrable to a lower latency with the spikes.
> I had a G600 that would spike if I set the presets on the mouse memory. You have to troubleshoot all causative drivers - no less - before we can remark usefully.


I also ran LatencyMon and the highest spikes are on nvlddmkm.sys. I can post a report of latency mon here if you think it would be helpful. I already tried disabling a lot of drivers and other things which could cause spikes based on what I've read until now when troubleshooting. 
Related to peripherals - that's the thing, because I used the same peripherals on my last rig, with same configuration, same DPI, same keyboard effects and I had no issues there (I had a 6600k + 980)


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 8, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> I also ran LatencyMon and the highest spikes are on nvlddmkm.sys. I can post a report of latency mon here if you think it would be helpful.


Good thing you mentioned. You must now search for that. You can develop on that question, however you aren't giving any leads on that. This is an issue you can solve on your own. Do an internet search. Don't leave it unresolved. There are many forums specialized on many topics, you aren't alone in your quandry. Somebody must have answers, just look over them. Everybody isn't experienced in it, but somebody definitely is. These aren't limited hardware.

I don't want to say it could be a cpu spike, or gpu but you can find leads in the internet. You already have the causative driver. You have already solved the hard part.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

Okay so if everythings ruled out except the video card driver at this stage, we need to focus on the physical GPU, its driver, or some physical shenanigans (overheating? slot issue? power issue? monitor??)


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Good thing you mentioned. You must now search for that. You can develop on that question, however you aren't giving any leads on that. This is an issue you can solve on your own. Do an internet search. Don't leave it unresolved. There are many forums specialized on many topics, you aren't alone in your quandry. Somebody must have answers, just look over them. Everybody isn't experienced in it, but somebody definitely is. These aren't limited hardware.
> 
> I don't want to say it could be a cpu spike, or gpu but you can find leads in the internet. You already have the causative driver. You have already solved the hard part.


I'm pasting the LatencyMon report below. I have already did my own research but nothing seems to help - I have checked for driver conflicts, IRQ conflicts, tried to set my gpu on MSI (even if it was already set). I have tried disabling different services and processes to no avail. I also ran performance monitor to monitor processes' processor time and I got spikes from things like System, svchost and some I don't remember now, but every time I googled those they were related to things like Windows Update or Windows defender or notifications, which in time I disabled them all and that made no difference. 


> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> CONCLUSION
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.
> ...





Mussels said:


> Okay so if everythings ruled out except the video card driver at this stage, we need to focus on the physical GPU, its driver, or some physical shenanigans (overheating? slot issue? power issue?)


I agree - but I'm not sure, as I tried my GPU in another system and there were no stutters there with the same (latest) nvidia drivers. I also went through all drivers since the first came out for 3080 and the issue persists. The GPU doesn't really gets hot, you can see temperature in the screenshots I posted. I also tried changing its PCIe slot from the current PCIe 4 to a lower one PCIe 3 which just caused a loss of performance and didn't fix the stutters. I have 2 different power cables connected to it as well as I tried with different cables and a different PSU.

But I'm ready to test anything you guys suggest so that we can rule them out together.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> I'm pasting the LatencyMon report below. I have already did my own research but nothing seems to help - I have checked for driver conflicts, IRQ conflicts, tried to set my gpu on MSI (even if it was already set). I have tried disabling different services and processes to no avail. I also ran performance monitor to monitor processes' processor time and I got spikes from things like System, svchost and some I don't remember now, but every time I googled those they were related to things like Windows Update or Windows defender or notifications, which in time I disabled them all and that made no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats why i said shenaninanigans: whats different to the friends PC?
Are you using a PCI-E riser? shitty extension cables? a bad PSU?
Does your system have really really bad heating issues?

show us pics of the PC all together, if it hasnt been asked for earlier in the thread i'm not sure why


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> thats why i said shenaninanigans: whats different to the friends PC?
> Are you using a PCI-E riser? shitty extension cables? a bad PSU?
> Does your system have really really bad heating issues?
> 
> show us pics of the PC all together, if it hasnt been asked for earlier in the thread i'm not sure why


There is a whole host of things we could displace the subject to, however he already has the name of the offending driver. He just has to make a search for that. I mean, people at hw unboxed have dealt with much subtler issues and have identified nvidia thread optimisation, or the 3770 lag. There is none of those here, but I may be overlooking them. That is why I said he needs specialized troubleshooting which none of us could help with in this case.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> thats why i said shenaninanigans: whats different to the friends PC?
> Are you using a PCI-E riser? shitty extension cables? a bad PSU?
> Does your system have really really bad heating issues?
> 
> show us pics of the PC all together, if it hasnt been asked for earlier in the thread i'm not sure why


I'll post below the differences. With pictures I will come back later as I can't take it out right now.

My PCHis PCCPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800xCPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800xMotherboard: Asus TUF Gaming B550-PLUSMotherboard: Asus TUF Gaming B550-PLUS_GPU: GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 3080 GAMING OC 10GB GDDR6X 320-bit__GPU: GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 3080 VISION OC 10GB GDDR6X 320-bit__RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB DDR4 3600MHz CL18 Dual Channel Kit (CMK32GX4M2D3600C18)__RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 16GB DDR4 3200MHz CL16 Dual Channel Kit (CMK16GX4M2E3200C16) x2__Cooling: Noctua NH-D14__Cooling: Cooler CPU NZXT Kraken X73__PSU: Corsair RM850 2019, 80+ Gold, 850W, Full Modular (also tried his model for a week - same)__PSU: Super Flower Leadex III Gold, 80+ Gold, 850W__Case: Mid Tower__Case: Full Tower (don't know the exact model)_Storage: 1x 120GB SATA SSD for OS, 1x 1TB M2 SSD only for games, 2x 2TB HDD for random storageStorage: 1x 1TB M2 SSD for OS and games onlyMouse: Logitech G502 LIGHTSPEED WIRELESS GAMING MOUSEMouse: Logitech G502 LIGHTSPEED WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE_Keyboard: Logitech G PRO__Keyboard: Logitech G910__Audio device(s): HyperX Cloud Flight, stereo, USB, Wireless; Logitech 5.1 Z906 speakers__Audio device: Logitech G635_OS: Same Windows 10 pro latest updates, latest build, latest versionOS: Same Windows 10 pro latest updates, latest build, latest version
Edit: also temperatures seem fine to me. Doesn't really look like I have any temp spike that could cause throttling. Even when running prime95 which pushes the CPU to the highest temperatures I don't have stutter outside games



mtcn77 said:


> There is a whole host of things we could displace the subject to, however he already has the name of the offending driver. He just has to make a search for that. I mean, people at hw unboxed have dealt with much subtler issues and have identified nvidia thread optimisation, or the 3770 lag. There is none of those here, but I may be overlooking them. That is why I said he needs specialized troubleshooting which none of us could help with in this case.


I also tried disabling nvidia options such as threaded optimization and a bunch of others and the result is the same. I actually talked about this with nvidia customer support and basically they told me since I tried my gpu in another system is not Nvidia's fault and the DPC latency could be cause by other driver and be shown by latencymon as a side effect. Should I take it back to them and ask for level2 support or another look?


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

nvidia cant help you, if it works fine in another PC it'll work in their test PC as well

that list of yours vs friends is actually helpful and rules out a bunch of stuff

What BIOS is yours on, vs friends?
What VBIOS is yours on, vs friends?
Your ram is at 3600 vs 3200, run 3200 and see if its an instability issue (corsair LPX is well known as being garbage on ryzen, but 3200 should be trouble free)

You havent mentioned a GPU riser yet, but thats a concern


lets check that list out and go from there


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 8, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> I'll post below the differences. With pictures I will come back later as I can't take it out right now.
> 
> My PCHis PCCPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800xCPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800xMotherboard: Asus TUF Gaming B550-PLUSMotherboard: Asus TUF Gaming B550-PLUS_GPU: GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 3080 GAMING OC 10GB GDDR6X 320-bit__GPU: GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 3080 VISION OC 10GB GDDR6X 320-bit__RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 32GB DDR4 3600MHz CL18 Dual Channel Kit (CMK32GX4M2D3600C18)__RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 16GB DDR4 3200MHz CL16 Dual Channel Kit (CMK16GX4M2E3200C16) x2__Cooling: Noctua NH-D14__Cooling: Cooler CPU NZXT Kraken X73__PSU: Corsair RM850 2019, 80+ Gold, 850W, Full Modular (also tried his model for a week - same)__PSU: Super Flower Leadex III Gold, 80+ Gold, 850W__Case: Mid Tower__Case: Full Tower (don't know the exact model)_Storage: 1x 120GB SATA SSD for OS, 1x 1TB M2 SSD only for games, 2x 2TB HDD for random storageStorage: 1x 1TB M2 SSD for OS and games only*Mouse: Logitech G502 LIGHTSPEED WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE**Mouse: Logitech G502 LIGHTSPEED WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE*_Keyboard: Logitech G PRO__Keyboard: Logitech G910__Audio device(s): HyperX Cloud Flight, stereo, USB, Wireless; Logitech 5.1 Z906 speakers__Audio device: Logitech G635_OS: Same Windows 10 pro latest updates, latest build, latest versionOS: Same Windows 10 pro latest updates, latest build, latest version
> Edit: also temperatures seem fine to me. Doesn't really look like I have any temp spike that could cause throttling. Even when running prime95 which pushes the CPU to the highest temperatures I don't have stutter outside games
> ...


I think you missed the post where I said the mouse could be the culprit in case you stored your profiles ON the mouse memory. Honestly, it seems like you aren't doing the deeds.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> nvidia cant help you, if it works fine in another PC it'll work in their test PC as well
> 
> that list of yours vs friends is actually helpful and rules out a bunch of stuff
> 
> ...


I understand, and actually my biggest fear of sending components to warranty is that it won't happen on other system or the tester won't notice it.
We both have the same BIOS, latest on https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-C...ll-series/TUF-GAMING-B550-PLUS/HelpDesk_BIOS/ , but I have tried with different versions as well. We usually let each other know when there's a new version and upgrade.
Same VBIOS - F1 . It was how the GPU came and none of us cared to update it. I don't think VBIOS could be faulty on mine since there was no stutter when I plugged it in in his system, right?
I tried running different frequencies from stock to 3000, 3200, 3600 and the one right before 3600 (something like 3580, read that a guy fixed it like that), as well as changing the CL from 18 to 16 and manually setting DOCP settings of 18-22-22-42-1.35V and manually setting it again to 16-18-18-36-1.35V, as well as rising the voltage to 1.37, 1.39 even 1.4, but none of these fixed it. I had no instability with all of them, system ran fine and I could play any game, I just had a small performance loss on some cases.
Yes! Sorry about the GPU riser - I do not have one, neither does my friend. The GPU is connected directly to motherboard in the PCIe 4 slot (closest to the CPU)



mtcn77 said:


> I think you missed the post where I said the mouse could be the culprit in case you stored your profiles ON the mouse memory. Honestly, it seems like you aren't doing the deeds.


Sorry about that! I do not have anything stored on mouse memory and neither on keyboard's. Everything was set through Logitech G Hub and now that I have uninstalled it I'm running them on stock settings I guess - no effects on keyboard, only a static red light and nothing on mouse, I changed the DPI to what I need though its buttons which are the stock settings anyways. I didn't use the G Hub to do much anyway, only some lighting effects on keyboard and macros - which don't work right now since I uninstalled it.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I think you missed the post where I said the mouse could be the culprit in case you stored your profiles ON the mouse memory. Honestly, it seems like you aren't doing the deeds.


man it'd be funny if it was a piece of hair over a mouse sensor or something, all we can do is go OCD through every single piece of hardware at this rate


hell take the entire PC, use friends mouse keyboard monitor power cords etc and see what happens


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> man it'd be funny if it was a piece of hair over a mouse sensor or something, all we can do is go OCD through every single piece of hardware at this rate
> 
> 
> hell take the entire PC, use friends mouse keyboard monitor power cords etc and see what happens


It's actually funny because someone suggested at some point that it could be dust particles on some circuits, like GPU PCIe slot or RAM slot or even CPU socket that could cause this funky thing when executing some operations. I cleaned the GPU and GPU slot and same with RAM, there was nothing anyways. Didn't go so far to clean the CPU socket yet even though I think I would have bigger problems if there would be dust in the CPU socket lol.
Using his peripherals is actually a good idea, when I went at his place I took my mouse and keyboard and power cord. I used one of his monitors tho. So yeah definitely next time I can use his keyboard and his mouse as well. But again.. would this make sense? I had the same peripherals on old right and nothing like this happened so I'm not really sure how would these interact with this system in particular


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

If the GPU works in another system but not yours, then you know one other part of the system is the cause

So therefore, the goal is to swap parts one by one til you find the problem

Like if you two swapped GPUs what would happen? Swapped mobos? Swapped SSD's with your boot drive?


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> If the GPU works in another system but not yours, then you know one other part of the system is the cause
> 
> So therefore, the goal is to swap parts one by one til you find the problem
> 
> Like if you two swapped GPUs what would happen? Swapped mobos? Swapped SSD's with your boot drive?


I agree! That's what we started doing. We actually also swapped RAM and his system worked fine and mine had the stutters. I also tried another PSU and it was the same. After I try the new SSD, the last 2 things which will remain to be swapped would be CPU and Mobo which are the worst, but will do it if it comes to that


----------



## Mussels (Apr 8, 2021)

With the new OS install, dont install anything that isnt from windows update or the Nvidia driver at first, that'll help narrow things down to a physical problem


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> With the new OS install, dont install anything that isnt from windows update or the Nvidia driver at first, that'll help narrow things down to a physical problem


I mean he even has dpc latency at hand. Just install drivers on a fresh install and see what causes it.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 8, 2021)

Is the PCI-e Gen set to auto in the Bios or manually selecting Gen4?
Try Gen 3 and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## milewski1015 (Apr 8, 2021)

Have you tried using NVCleanstall to reinstall the Nvidia drivers?


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> With the new OS install, dont install anything that isnt from windows update or the Nvidia driver at first, that'll help narrow things down to a physical problem


Sure, sounds good. Will do that and come back with results.


mtcn77 said:


> I mean he even has dpc latency at hand. Just install drivers on a fresh install and see what causes it.


Will do that and see after what installation the stutter occurs, even though if I remember right it was the same with only the GPU driver installed. Do you know how could I troubleshoot what latencymon tells me more?


Caring1 said:


> Is the PCI-e Gen set to auto in the Bios or manually selecting Gen4?
> Try Gen 3 and see if that makes a difference.


It is auto, I have tried to manually setting it to 4 and then 3 and it doesn't make any difference


milewski1015 said:


> Have you tried using NVCleanstall to reinstall the Nvidia drivers?


In the past I have used only NVSlimmer which does something similar to this. I will try this out and let you know


----------



## mtcn77 (Apr 8, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> Do you know how could I troubleshoot what latencymon tells me more?


For starters, I said 'dpc latency'.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 9, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> For starters, I said 'dpc latency'.


I know what you said and I appreciate your trying to help, however I also said that I have tried everything on forums with what I found in relation to latencymon results, how to interpret them and how to fix them and unfortunately nothing that I have tried worked, that's why I asked if you have any suggestions or if you could point me to those specialized forums where I could ask and share more details on this, hoping someone will help.

@Everyone else, the shop contacted me today and told me they ordered the SSD because they didn't have in stock so it will take several days until it reaches me, unfortunately. However at the moment I'm focusing on drivers and software, hopefully magically I find something that fixes it. Today I also flashed BIOS again, tried different version of LAN, Audio and Nvidia drivers (with the NVCleanInstall what @milewski1015  suggested), so far no positive result. Will keep you guys posted
Thanks!


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 14, 2021)

Hey guys,
I'm back with an update - today came the 970 evo 1TB ssd and I tested with it. What I did: disconnected both 2tb hdds, sata ssd and completely removed the old m2 ssd, as well as disconnected case fan controller, case usb cables 2.0 and 3.0, 1080p monitor, headset, speakers, other non essential USB thingies connected. The only things connected together are Motherboard, CPU, GPU, new ssd, CPU fan and PSU. I have plugged in only keyboard, mouse, 1440p monitor and the windows bootable usb stick. I have created 2 partitions from within windows' setup - 194 gb and 736 gb - and installed windows on the 194gb one. I had to connect to the internet after the setup was complete because I didn't save driver or games' setups before doing everything. The only driver I installed was the latest Nvidia driver. The other things installed are League of Legends, c++ redist for it to work and latencymon.

The results after a league game are... not good? Unfortunately it is still happening BUT it is less subtle and less frequent. LatencyMon still detects high DPC latency but it's 1000us less than before.
Before: 



http://imgur.com/a/WYSbAY4

After: 



http://imgur.com/a/g7fXvtK

Friend's PC with no issues (after 2h of heavy gaming): 



http://imgur.com/a/09c2LUS


@Mussels here's a pic of the PC's insides at the current state with most of the things disconnected, sorry for the delay and for the current mess from within the PC: 



http://imgur.com/a/8OqELsb


Does this mean the problem is 100% isolated to Motherboard or CPU?
Thanks!!

EDIT: NEVERMIND I just ran a benchmark and the latency went back up during it: 



http://imgur.com/a/eaCyoDR


----------



## Mussels (Apr 15, 2021)

well your fans are all oriented the right ways, at least - common problem

in those images i see the CPU fans spinning but not the others, i assume they're just off for short term testing to eliminate them as an issue?

We do see networking as one of your high latency tasks - what network adaptor? the onboard ethernet, or a wifi adaptor?
Disable it and see what happens

If you open up HWinfo64 and fire up an all core CPU benchmark like Cinebench R23, what does it show the 'current' clocks as? Do they slow down over time?
(thinking VRM overheating, with the massive air cooler it wouldnt take much for a deadspot, or a bad thermal pad to cause erratic CPU clocks)


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 15, 2021)

Mussels said:


> well your fans are all oriented the right ways, at least - common problem
> 
> in those images i see the CPU fans spinning but not the others, i assume they're just off for short term testing to eliminate them as an issue?
> 
> ...


Yep, all fans should be good. The reason the case fan are not spinning is because at the time of the photo the fan controller was disconnected for installing the new windows and testing. Usually and now they are running are flowing air as expected - 2 front and 1 bottom for pulling air and 2 top and 1 on the back for pushing air.
I'm running the onboard network adapter which is Realtek RTL8125B 2.5Gb Ethernet, through cable. No wifi adapter of any sorts. I have disabled it and installed different driver version as well as installing versions directly from realtek or from the mobo vendor site - no difference. I also tested with the internet cable pulled out completely but it still makes no difference. 
From what I've seen they don't slow down over time. I'm leaving a screenshot below: 



http://imgur.com/a/ybIf3zr

But for example when I'm playing league the CPU sits at ~60C and I still get random stutters when there shouldn't be any throttling at that temperature..

Should I try with another motherboard or CPU? Or do you still think is it worth to change the thermal paste on CPU and run the motherboard striped out from case?


----------



## Mussels (Apr 15, 2021)

those temps and clocks all look good - they're hot, but not a cause for performance issues


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 15, 2021)

Mussels said:


> those temps and clocks all look good - they're hot, but not a cause for performance issues


Usually in normal usage they don't get that hot, only in benchmarks so that's even better. I'm at a loss to what to now honestly, the only things which remain are to change motherboard and/or CPU and I'm not even 100% sure that will fix the issue - heck, I don't even know what exactly causes it.
Latencymon tells me it's drivers related, but I changed all the drivers possible and the issue still persists, normal hardware troubleshooting tells me it could be ram, gpu, storage or psu which I managed to exclude all of them. I've read that if a CPU is faulty I would have bigger issues than this so I think the only thing that remains is the Motherboard but I can't wrap my head around what could be faulty on it so that it causes this specific subtle issue.

Thanks for your effort guys, I really appreciate it!! If you could advise me on the next steps that would be great - the only things left for me to do are stripping the mobo out of case and testing the pc like that and ordering a new motherboard. I just want to know if the overhead for this would be worth or if there are other things which maybe I overlooked.


----------



## Papahyooie (Apr 15, 2021)

Has anyone suggested turning off all "power saving" features, both in bios and in windows? Specifically turn off pci-e link state management in windows, then off usb select suspend in windows , and use the "high performance" power plan. Also make sure nvidia drivers are set to maximum performance in nvidia control panel. 

Also try disabling all audio devices and run your games that way and see what happens.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 15, 2021)

Papahyooie said:


> Has anyone suggested turning off all "power saving" features, both in bios and in windows? Specifically turn off pci-e link state management in windows, then off usb select suspend in windows , and use the "high performance" power plan. Also make sure nvidia drivers are set to maximum performance in nvidia control panel.
> 
> Also try disabling all audio devices and run your games that way and see what happens.


Not sure if someone suggested here but I definitely tried disabling everything you mentioned already. Nvidia driver is set to maximum performance as well as high performance plan from windows (I also tried enabling and using ultra performance mode) and it's the same.
Just tried with all audio devices and drivers disabled and it makes no difference. 

More than this my friend with similar build didn't do anything else extra, he's using vanilla windows, bios (only DOCP activated) and nvidia settings, so I don't really know  it's just frustrating


----------



## Mussels (Apr 16, 2021)

SweetPhilosophy said:


> Not sure if someone suggested here but I definitely tried disabling everything you mentioned already. Nvidia driver is set to maximum performance as well as high performance plan from windows (I also tried enabling and using ultra performance mode) and it's the same.
> Just tried with all audio devices and drivers disabled and it makes no difference.
> 
> More than this my friend with similar build didn't do anything else extra, he's using vanilla windows, bios (only DOCP activated) and nvidia settings, so I don't really know  it's just frustrating


you really gotta involve that friend more and figure things out by swapping parts - such as using your system with his monitor, mouse, keyboard etc


----------



## AsRock (Apr 16, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> @Papahyooie  your judgment, sir? Trolling or real? Not to put you on the spot there, but I think this handily spells out how difficult a stutter problem really is to be conclusive about. Still - I agree its good to be vigilant.
> 
> @SweetPhilosophy
> First order of business: stop spending money on this rig. You can make do with less and still get the performance right, this isn't a performance problem in terms of hardware. Its like you say: old game. How the F. I agree. The problem is finding the issue and your steps are going in the right direction, even if the SSD might not be required, you can at least chalk it off as a source and SSD performance is never wasted really.
> ...



Yes i remember GTA 1 HAHAHA,  maybe he has to slow the system down to make it more playable ^^, maybe though a tool.


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (Apr 20, 2021)

Small update: I have been in talks with Nvidia's customer support and they escalated the issue to level 2 support who, after asking me some details and info and logs, told me they are almost 100% sure it's the motherboard. When I asked them what could be the issue with the motherboard they told me that something so subtle as this could could be caused by a lot of things such as vrm issues, micro tearings from factory, lower quality silicon on IC (?) etc. They also told me to contact Asus about this and/or send the motherboard to warranty - I don't really want this because I'm sure they won't notice the issue if they will actually test it out.
I don't see a reason why would they just tell me this to just get over with me, so I'm asking you guys if these things could really cause something subtle like this?
I'm planning to buy a new motherboard and test it out, and for this I have two questions in choosing a new motherboard: should I go for the same chipset B550 or should I go for x570? Aaand should I choose another manufacturer or submanufacturer (don't know how to call them I'm thinking TUF vs ROG which are both made by Asus)?


----------



## Mussels (Apr 21, 2021)

VRMs overheating can cause weird stutter, the rest of the things they said - no

x570 gives you more bandwidth to the entire board, so if you're keeping it a long time it'll let you use faster expansion cards in the future (a PCI-E 1x 4.0 card will have double the bandwidth on one of these boards, for future wifi, ethernet, USB cards etc)


----------



## bbacks26 (May 18, 2021)

Any updates?


----------



## SweetPhilosophy (May 22, 2021)

bbacks26 said:


> Any updates?


Hello everyone,
I'm coming with an update. Unfortunately I did not manage to get a new motherboard because of personal issues that came up in the meanwhile, however what else I did was to run the PC removed from the case and there was no result; I also changed the CPU thermal paste, made sure the CPU socket is extra clean and reseat the cooler, still to no effect.
Interesting thing is that 2 days ago I have installed the new nvidia driver which is game ready 466.47 - I had just received a notification from the geforce experience and I was like hell why not - didn't really care much about it to test stuff again because I didn't have any hope BUT a friend asked me if I managed to fix it, decided to open up latencymon and play around and lo and behold my dpc latency was not getting over 300us. I was like what's going on??? I payed extra attention to how ingame behaves (after switching ssd's the stutters were really hard to notice) and there was no stutter during an entire league game 



http://imgur.com/a/jnwd65y

(it was usually spiking to ~2300us literally after 10seconds and now 16minutes of nothing??)

The only thing I noticed tho is that it still spikes to ~2300us when I alt-tab but I don't care about that that much.
It's really strange!!! I mean.. I have read the release notes on this driver's version and there's nothing related to what I was experiencing. I just installed it through nvidia geforce checking the clean installation, no ddu, no nothing else fancy.
Why would the Nvidia guys tell me it's the motherboard when clearly now it was something strange with the drivers? Smh
I'm glad, guys, but at the same time it's bittersweet thinking how I was pulling my hair off and nothing was even remotely making it better.
Thank you very much for all of your help and time and sorry again for such a late reply!! If you have any questions let me know I'm glad to clarify things if there's any


----------



## fatehasfans (May 22, 2021)

Sorry guys/gals for not getting back. I still have the problem. I have such a suspicion though that it's something to do with the electricity/earthing etc or some kind of bottlenecking - you know that 'off' feeling your computer has when you don't install your motherboard drivers after a fresh windows installation? Well, it feels like that.

Anyway, I disconnected everything like another poster said and nothing, no change but I just want to point out that the problem with this issue is not only pinning it down but also highlighting it. What I mean by that is that because my computer is quite powerful (for the games I play at least) the micro-stutter and input lag is so subtle that you only notice it when trying to play at a competitive level, so when you need to press 4-5 key combinations lightning quick I'll find the keyboard will often miss a key OR double tap one thus messing up the entire sequence. In fact I find the double-tap (either keyboard or mouse) thing happens quite a lot. When playing games it's a killer. Same with trying to make sharp, abrupt and decisive movements with the mouse it just feels a little 'floaty or heavy'.

Over time I've kinda gotten used to it but my skill level in games has taken such a hit and I'm getting tired of explaining to my friends that it's to do with my input lag (gah!), you know how forgiving friends can be about this stuff :/

Anyway, I appreciate the help and I'll keep plugging away but it's such a hard issue to pinpoint that I'm actually beginning to think I'll just be stuck with it or that this is the new norm with computers and everyone else adapts to it fine.


----------



## ThatWeirdInputLag (Jun 21, 2021)

@fatehasfans Hello,
You are not alone in this, I have the exact same problem unfortunately. There's always this weird stuttering when looking around with the mouse even if the FPS is higher than my refresh rate or just capped at my refresh rate. 
I've tried almost everything that you did, and even more. I've changed my electric socket and added even another grounding line to act for my PC only lol. Problem was still there. 
I have changed motherboards, ssd and nvme, cooling solution, repasting, gpu's, Ram sticks, keyboards & mice & headsets "usb and analog", so many bios and OS tweaks its insane, i've been trying to find the solution for the past year and a half. the only thing I have not changed is the CPU.. but more and more i think its really not a cpu issue, its just something with z390 boards. because i went from Aorus Ultra to ROG MAXIMUS HERO XI and they are both high end motherboards that costed me alot of money, and both did not help solving the problem.

My Specs + changes:
- CPU = i9900KS
- Motherboard = Aorus Ultra Z390 --> ROG MAX Hero XI
- Graphics Card = Aorus 2080 Super --> Aorus 2080TI xtreme
- Ram = HyperX Predator 4000cl19 --> Trident Neo 4000cl15
- CPU cooler = Kraken 52 ---> Noctua 15 "something something twin tower black one"
- Storage = SSD --> Nvme.2 Back and forth

What actually made me know that we both have the same problem is that everytime I change something in the bios mainly for the CPU that forces a restart the computer will behave normal and as it should, and the games start acting smoother with way less stutters "still there" but something normal and within reason. ORRRR if i change something in nvidia 3D settings and hit apply.
All things comes to an end "Mostly" when i shut my PC down. I tried to disable fast boot both from windows and bios, but still the same problem always comes back. I'm not sure why I was thinking its electricity even though i've had a PC before that sitting in the same place hooked to the same power sockets and never had this issue with. Even when you described how its hard to try combination key presses on the keyboard and some of them will just not go through I was like daaaym man i know the feeling its suckssss, made me literally go through 4 keyboards man, razer huntsman, ducky one 2 mini, razer huntsman elite 60% "now" and i was done, im like its not the keyboard for sure. 

more observations is if you play csgo or any fps for that matter, switching weapons back and forth is just sluggish, and for some reason everytime i alt tab and go back to the game its smooth and responsive for a bit then it goes back to shit..

Hopefully you find a solution, and i'll make sure to update you if i do too.. But for now, i'm done spending more money on this setup, I just can't do it anymore for my own sanity. I'll just wait and probably just buy an entire new setup next year or something.


----------



## fatehasfans (Jul 6, 2021)

ThatWeirdInputLag said:


> @fatehasfans Hello,
> You are not alone in this, I have the exact same problem unfortunately. There's always this weird stuttering when looking around with the mouse even if the FPS is higher than my refresh rate or just capped at my refresh rate.
> I've tried almost everything that you did, and even more. I've changed my electric socket and added even another grounding line to act for my PC only lol. Problem was still there.
> I have changed motherboards, ssd and nvme, cooling solution, repasting, gpu's, Ram sticks, keyboards & mice & headsets "usb and analog", so many bios and OS tweaks its insane, i've been trying to find the solution for the past year and a half. the only thing I have not changed is the CPU.. but more and more i think its really not a cpu issue, its just something with z390 boards. because i went from Aorus Ultra to ROG MAXIMUS HERO XI and they are both high end motherboards that costed me alot of money, and both did not help solving the problem.
> ...



I think I may have found something. I just tested it on a game and the game plays very different than normal, almost quicker and more responsive than normal.

It's late so I will do more tests tomorrow when I have time. But this is what I did, I went into Nvidia settings and turned off V-sync and also turned off G-sync. But also my change resolution settings were different than I normally set - rather than "Ultra HD, HD, SD 1920x1080 (native)" @ 120Hz they were on "PC @ 1920 x 1080" @ 144Hz - loaded up PES and the game feels much smoother as if the animations and input is matching the controls much more - the game feels much more responsive. Will look at other settings also. When I have more time tomorrow I will give you all my settings Nvidia/Bios etc.

Thanks.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 7, 2021)

fatehasfans said:


> I think I may have found something. I just tested it on a game and the game plays very different than normal, almost quicker and more responsive than normal.
> 
> It's late so I will do more tests tomorrow when I have time. But this is what I did, I went into Nvidia settings and turned off V-sync and also turned off G-sync. But also my change resolution settings were different than I normally set - rather than "Ultra HD, HD, SD 1920x1080 (native)" @ 120Hz they were on "PC @ 1920 x 1080" @ 144Hz - loaded up PES and the game feels much smoother as if the animations and input is matching the controls much more - the game feels much more responsive. Will look at other settings also. When I have more time tomorrow I will give you all my settings Nvidia/Bios etc.
> 
> Thanks.


Wait, so you went from 1080p 120Hz to 1080p 60Hz and its smoother?

you still havent filled out your system specs to make this easier for us, what model monitor is it? How is it connected, HDMI or displayport?


----------



## fatehasfans (Jul 7, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Wait, so you went from 1080p 120Hz to 1080p 60Hz and its smoother?
> 
> you still havent filled out your system specs to make this easier for us, what model monitor is it? How is it connected, HDMI or displayport?


Hi there,

Sorry my specs are AOC 27G2 27 144hz using display port.

Btw, it was false alarm anyway, after further testing it turns out that when you change v-sync (which I had switched from default i.e. application controlled to off) and then turn off G-sync, turning off G-sync actually turns V-sync back on in the Nvidia settings so when I thought I was testing with both off I wasn't, though the game I was playing felt 'different' in other words a little more natural to the way I#d normally have played it - hard to explain.

Anyway, when I went back in and did it in the reverse order (G-sync first then V-sync) there was significant screen tearing in the game.

Now the problem with testing is that there are other things that affect my games in small ways also, they are changing Bios to XMP profile for ram, using XMP profile for CPU (in other words using the auto-overlock option on your bios), changing the Power and Sleep options from balanced to performance and vice versa, also changing Nvidia power options from Optimal Power to Maximum Performance. Each of these settings produces a different outcome in terms of how the game plays, even though they are small it's noticeable these things range from small glitches to changes in animation speed to small increases/decreases in response AND strangely AI reactions - some combinations can change how aggressive the AI is but this could be due to missing animations or a delay in processing allowing the AI small advantages in reaction to outcomes.

So when I test something else I have to go through a myriad of combinations which makes things extremely time consuming to pinpoint. I'll do more testing of options and get back. Thanks.

P.S. I'm not sure where you got 60hz from as I stated I went from 120hz to 144hz but if you could explain that would be fantastic as I'm no computer buff, thanks.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 8, 2021)

Because the way you wrote it was confusing, so i was clarifying

G-sync requires Vsync, always has

I suggest disabling Gsync and forcing Vsync off, and using the nvidia driver option to lock your FPS at  140FPS (while on 144Hz)

See what happens


----------



## ThatWeirdInputLag (Jul 9, 2021)

fatehasfans said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Sorry my specs are AOC 27G2 27 144hz using display port.
> 
> ...


 Im having flashbacks of all those times that i did something similar that made the game run nice and smooth only for it to go bad again in a day or 2! 
i’ll most probably just reset everything back to normal and call it a day lol..


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 9, 2021)

five pages and over 6 months for a non problem problem can we not ?


----------



## fatehasfans (Jul 14, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> five pages and over 6 months for a non problem problem can we not ?


That 'non problem problem' is the difference between playing games at a competitive level and not. It's a world of difference, and that's the other issue - that it's so hard to pinpoint. For example browsing and everything else is fine you would think the computer is fine but if you are a gamer and play at a high level these then these small things become monumental, game breaking. being to able to 'flickshot'  (instant reaction head-shot) in a first person shooter is the difference between being able to play and not being able to play. It's like being a fine detail artist and someone hands you a broken crayon add to this the cost, I paid a lot of money and expected the smoothest result. Am I wrong to expect this?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 14, 2021)

fatehasfans said:


> That 'non problem problem' is the difference between playing games at a competitive level and not. It's a world of difference, and that's the other issue - that it's so hard to pinpoint. For example browsing and everything else is fine you would think the computer is fine but if you are a gamer and play at a high level these then these small things become monumental, game breaking. being to able to 'flickshot'  (instant reaction head-shot) in a first person shooter is the difference between being able to play and not being able to play. It's like being a fine detail artist and someone hands you a broken crayon add to this the cost, I* paid a lot of money and expected the smoothest result. Am I wrong to expect this?*


Well... maybe, yes.
I'm here on a 5800x with a 3090 and know exactly what i'm doing - and i still get lag spikes, the odd game crash and even the odd screwup (like premium PSU cables literally melting)
Playing Ghost recon: wildlands i vary from 200FPS to 60FPS, and i feel laggy and slow at that 60... yet my friend i'm playing with only has a 60Hz monitor, so he sees that same lag as smooth.
the problem here is we dont know your expectations, nor can we really narrow down the issue here after so long, which is uncommon


----------



## deviiiiiiiiii (Jul 17, 2021)

I am having the exact same problem as described above by fatehasfans and ThatWeirdInputLag.


ThatWeirdInputLag said:


> @fatehasfans Hello,
> You are not alone in this, I have the exact same problem unfortunately. There's always this weird stuttering when looking around with the mouse even if the FPS is higher than my refresh rate or just capped at my refresh rate.
> I've tried almost everything that you did, and even more. I've changed my electric socket and added even another grounding line to act for my PC only lol. Problem was still there.
> I have changed motherboards, ssd and nvme, cooling solution, repasting, gpu's, Ram sticks, keyboards & mice & headsets "usb and analog", so many bios and OS tweaks its insane, i've been trying to find the solution for the past year and a half. the only thing I have not changed is the CPU.. but more and more i think its really not a cpu issue, its just something with z390 boards. because i went from Aorus Ultra to ROG MAXIMUS HERO XI and they are both high end motherboards that costed me alot of money, and both did not help solving the problem.
> ...


This description matches perfectly with my own problem and vast list of attempts to fix the issue. I have swapped out every single hardware component in my PC and yet the problem remains. I am completely stumped. What makes it worse is that I stream and play professionally for a living.


----------



## SuperTweaker (Jul 17, 2021)

More than likely it's your CPU.  This is happening all the time whether you're are gaming or just doing mundane tasks, right?  I would RMA that CPU if that is indeed the case.


----------



## deviiiiiiiiii (Jul 17, 2021)

SuperTweaker said:


> More than likely it's your CPU.  This is happening all the time whether you're are gaming or just doing mundane tasks, right?  I would RMA that CPU if that is indeed the case.


In my case, I've gone and bought a new CPU and my PC has the same problems, not sure about the other posters.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 17, 2021)

start your own thread don't come here and thread jack this one thanks


----------



## deviiiiiiiiii (Jul 17, 2021)

OneMoar said:


> start your own thread don't come here and thread jack this one thanks


Just chiming in to say I have the same issue and am also seeking answers thanks


----------



## agn (Jul 18, 2021)

Im seeking for this answer since 2011, since then i spend more than 8k on different pc setups. I suscept to be electricity problem, but the thing is even if i power up pc , monitor and router from just a ups battery the problem is still here so i think it may be some kind of noise that fuck up caps or crystal oscillators and that fuckups timing of theese things and the damage is permanent now the last thing i plan to try in future is changing digital smart meter since it may be strongest source of emi/ rfi noise for analog one aswell as buying new motherboard.


----------



## SuperTweaker (Jul 19, 2021)

Another consideration.  If you HD games installed on your PC and they can play 'offline' just fine, the most logical deduction is your Internet connection - especially if any Internet games' connection is below 20mpbs down and 2mpbs up. (megabits per second). Wireless connections can make playing an online game incredibly glitched with lag.

Good place to start is speedtest.net and return and tell us your Ping/Latency, Download and Uploads speeds.


----------



## Staijoscaine (Jul 24, 2021)

Hi, I have the same problem, I bought my pc 3 months ago and yet the mouse moves inaccurate and its really annoying cuz I can t play fps games like this.
Did u guys find the problem?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 25, 2021)

Staijoscaine said:


> Hi, I have the same problem, I bought my pc 3 months ago and yet the mouse moves inaccurate and its really annoying cuz I can t play fps games like this.
> Did u guys find the problem?


no, we just keep getting heaps of new users making one post and never coming back, and they never answer questions -.-

some really basic stuff like your monitor resolution and refresh rate (and checking it's actually set to use its max refresh rate) your mouse, mouse DPI settings and mousepad... we cant even get people to answer that


----------



## cvaldes (Jul 25, 2021)

This is prevalent behavior all over the Internet, not just here at TechPowerUp, not just technology forums, and not just recently.

These drive-by one-hit wonders have easily been going for 7-8+ years. It also coincides when the number of people using search engines for basic inquiries started declining.

Poorly composed inquiry. Scant information. No reply to requests for additional detail. No followup if someone's advice worked. No contribution to the community. No gratitude.

I see this selfish behavior all over the Web. Sadly it's really no different on a cooking Q&A forum.

It's a basic lack of manners. Me, me, me. Now, now, now. Take, take, take.

Look at the "what ___ should I buy?" questions. Often there is NO BUDGET and NO USAGE CASE. "Which car should I buy?" leads to "Do you have a budget? Do you have family? Do you care about gas mileage?"

If it bothers you, you should consider quitting moderation. There is zero indication that it will get any better.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 25, 2021)

like I said non problem problems 
@Mussels  lock ?


----------



## Mussels (Jul 25, 2021)

Following OneMoars reminder, thread locked.

This is the 2nd or third on the same topic, and its always new users over and over without any information.

If you have a problem and want help, make a new thread for your own issue - and give us all the details! the hardware models, the settings you have applied, and pics of the setup.
We cant help by guesswork alone, especially when its 20 different users talking over each other.


----------

