# Hard to make a Android Update



## theFOoL (Feb 27, 2018)

Hi Guys,

Why is it that it takes SO Long to make an update  to Android? A OS update like MM to NG

I'm no Developer just wondering


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 27, 2018)

Because its a phone and everything is slower from processor to storage.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 27, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Because its a phone and everything is slower from processor to storage.



I think he means for vendors to actually produce an update.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 27, 2018)

Haha.. oh.

Well there i ask, why does it take so long for windows to do incremental updates?

The problem is testing it across so many devices is one reason.


----------



## theFOoL (Feb 27, 2018)

Yeah like I'm on Verizon and it takes forever. They are like the Last carrier to get an Update out


----------



## Sasqui (Feb 27, 2018)

rk3066 said:


> Yeah like I'm on Verizon and it takes forever. They are like the Last carrier to get an Update out



It's not only Verizon, but the phone maker itself.  For major OS updates, the phone maker issues and update to Verizon, who then tests and tweaks for their network and agenda.  So yea, it maybe Verizon holding up the bus if other carriers have issued and update on the same phone model.


----------



## GreiverBlade (Feb 27, 2018)

why it take so long, or actually why people think it should be faster ...

to the initial question .... mmhhh hard to answer
to the alternate question... well .... Apple's fault, they did make the customer think their yearly phone and mOS release seems like something "absolutely" mandatory and "totally" needed

for android ... well it does not work like that .... really ....

as for everything, if it's not completely broken : don't fixe it completely, patch it! (uh... not "sounding" like it should...  ah, whatever, security patch were always up to date with my N5 )
the actual trend with Apple is : if it's still working: break it with a new OS revision or cripple it to make the user think they need a new one ...

enough with the Apple personal rant ...
a couple of example for Android (personal): my Minix Neo U1 is at best under 5.1.1, everything i need it to run runs perfectly, my Shield Tablet (backup i got for free in a "tinker" bundle ) work under 5.1.1 (thanks Nvidia for the Killswitch .... ) custom, does it work perfectly? well it does work perfectly fine (albeit the security patch .... but well ... nothing happened either )

my Nokia 5, run 8.0.0 since a little moment, since it's not a "carrier" branded the update came faster ... or actually it came the day it should have without any further delay for any stupid reason the carrier thought it would be great to add a bunch of idiotic bloatware, also a stock Oreo, actually carrier branded phone are just plain idiotic (just like contract, but, hey that's the only way to have the latest smartphone from overly expensive brands at a decent price .... or... is it ... the leasing might be more expensive than the initial price .... tho ) also, i should be happy that update had no glitch/bug/malfunction like some other update across various devices.

did the switch from 7.1.2 to 8.0.0 bring "HUGE" change? nope ... absolutely not, well the settings did change, a lot, but it's for the worst and not the other way (i will manage .... the other function still work perfectly) also for my Shield, 5.1.1 is deliberate, i could cook a custom 7.1.2 or 8.0 for it but it's fine as it is.

conclusion, aside from my N5, none of my Android devices run with the latest one, but they run just as fine as my N5 just 1 or 2 app does not run, those who don't give a backward compatibility down to 4.4 or lower ... or those who don't work on 8.0.0 (in the second case... i rather think the OS update wasn't necessary and it's not the fault of the app dev) luckily most of the time, it's not some app i used that often, most other apps are fine.




EarthDog said:


> Haha.. oh.
> 
> Well there i ask, why does it take so long for windows to do incremental updates?
> 
> The problem is testing it across so many devices is one reason.


that's also one answer ... for android, easily understandable, for the other "half" of the smartphone world, less (and it's the one that has less model that have the most issue on new mOS release  )


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Feb 27, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Haha.. oh.
> 
> Well there i ask, why does it take so long for windows to do incremental updates?
> 
> The problem is testing it across so many devices is one reason.


The broader problem is that carriers like AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, etc have to receive the update from google, preload their bullshit that you cant remove on it, test it out on the device, then push it and by the time they get to doing all that, the next update is out. 

If people just bought phones from google (ie Pixel) you would get the updates straight away the second google has them available because there is no bloatware on their phones much like Apple does with their iPhone. 

Or if people started bitching loud enough to the phone carriers to either stop putting the bloatware no one wants on their phones or gave us the option to remove it without needing to root the device, we would actually be able to get updates sooner.


----------



## IceShroom (Feb 27, 2018)

Android update gets pushed differently.
First Google make the update available for the SoC manufacturer. Then SoC manufacturer makes driver for that version of OS and send the driver to the Mobile phone manufacturer. Then phone manufacturer makes the OS and driver compitable for the phones. Then they test it and after testing the release the update. It generally takes 2 to 4 months. 
But if you add mobile carrier on then will take 1 to 3 months more.


----------



## theFOoL (Feb 27, 2018)

IceShroom said:


> But if you add mobile carrier on then will take 1 to 3 months more.


That's what grinds my gears


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 27, 2018)

Or, they can release it to millions with a shorter window and bork people's phones. Then a thread will be created wondering how they can release a new OS with 'so many issues'. 

Pick a side.


----------



## trparky (Apr 11, 2018)

GreiverBlade said:


> Apple's fault, they did make the customer think their yearly phone and mOS release seems like something "absolutely" mandatory and "totally" needed


No, I think that the so-called "fault" is on Microsoft and other companies as well. Think about it... with Microsoft *every* second Tuesday of *every* month we have Patch Tuesday, it's when Windows systems the world over get security patches. Every month there's a new version of Mozilla Firefox that's chock full of security patches and new features, the same can be said about Google Chrome and practically every piece of software that a lot of us rely on every day get similar updates on a monthly schedule.

So the question is, if every other software vendor on the planet has the whole update system practically down to a science why in God's name do the Android OEMs not have it? On Windows I click Windows Update and a new patch comes down. I click About in Firefox and it downloads a new version and installs it, the same can be said about Google Chrome. Yet there's no "Android Update" where the same can be done on the Android side. I'm not talking about full Android version updates, I'm talking about basic security patches that need to be applied as quickly as possible yet that doesn't happen in the Android camp at all. Instead you're at the mercy of the OEM and your carrier to decide to _grace_ your device with an update, that is, if your device is good enough. If not, yeah... we don't give a rat's ass about you.

If the Windows Update system was designed like what occurs in the Android camp we all would have to beg and plead the likes of HP, Dell, and other various OEMs to deliver the Windows security update that was released six months ago meanwhile our system has already been p0wned.

And you can't sit there and tell me that just because Android is open source it magically makes it more secure and that it doesn't need monthly security patches. Yeah right. If anything because it *IS* open source more flaws will be found more quickly thus more security patches are needed. There is something to be said about security through obscurity.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 11, 2018)

To keep it simple:

Android's ecosystem in terms of updates is horrible, and its one of Google's most ridiculous business plans. While Android itself is pretty awesome as a phone OS. I always find phones that are as close to stock Android as possible. Had an LG Nexus 5, now I've got a Moto G6 Plus which is nearly vanilla.

That said, we do have some sort of agreement now that security updates are being pushed and are separated from OS updates. Its progress... The partners still are late on those security updates too, but we do get them now for a reasonable amount of time after release.

About who's fault it is: Google of course. How the hell is this Apple or MS... some twisted logic  All Google had to do was say to phone makers look: here is the core OS, the only way you are going to add your bloat to it is if you keep it up to date and stable. The thing that sticks here is that Google never did this because they want to provide incentive for consumers/partners to keep buying new phones, and an up to date Android that keeps getting more lightweight and efficient really counters that in a huge way.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 11, 2018)

rk3066 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Why is it that it takes SO Long to make an update  to Android? A OS update like MM to NG
> 
> I'm no Developer just wondering



Google has already announced a fix for the slowness of it all, all new phones that come out with Andorid O and Android P have something called "bla bla I forget" but basically this is theoretically going to make it much much easier for people to update their devices, will it prove true? Time will tell mates.


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 11, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> The thing that sticks here is that Google never did this because they want to provide incentive for consumers/partners to keep buying new phones, and an up to date Android that keeps getting more lightweight and efficient really counters that in a huge way.



Not forgetting its in the Interest of the Phone Maker and the Carrier Service For you to Ditch Your Outdated Phone and Buy /contract the latest and  Greatest Bevelless with a notch and no Headphone's Socket,!!!!
YOU Got to Think of the Slumping economy BUY BUY BUY


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 11, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Not forgetting its in the Interest of the Phone Maker and the Carrier Service For you to Ditch Your Outdated Phone and Buy /contract the latest and  Greatest Bevelless with a notch and no Headphone's Socket,!!!!
> YOU Got to Think of the Slumping economy BUY BUY BUY



Don't get me started on notches


----------



## trparky (Apr 11, 2018)

Vayra86 said:


> Android's ecosystem in terms of updates is horrible


Oh yeah, most definitely.


Vayra86 said:


> we do have some sort of agreement now that security updates are being pushed and are separated from OS updates. Its progress...


Yeah, but as @lynx29 said it's only for newer devices that already have Android Oreo or the newer Android P (whatever it's going to be called).


Vayra86 said:


> How the hell is this Apple or MS... some twisted logic


I'm just bringing some examples of companies that do software patches the right way. Microsoft, Apple, and Mozilla are very good examples of companies that do it well. Google does it well but for only one product... Google Chrome.


Vayra86 said:


> All Google had to do was say to phone makers look: here is the core OS, the only way you are going to add your bloat to it is if you keep it up to date and stable.


I think that issue came about because of a sort of idealism. I see this a lot in the geek culture, the idea that just because the platform is open it means that everyone is going to have an equal footing or a level playing field. Unfortunately when it comes to the business world and the never ending need to make money it doesn't work like that. Pinky-swears only work in grade school, they don't work in the adult world.


Vayra86 said:


> While Android itself is pretty awesome as a phone OS.


You get no argument from me on that one, Android is a magnificent platform but it's got some serious issues with how updates are pushed. It comes from how Android as a platform was built from the ground up. I used to be deep into the rooting and ROMing scene a number of years ago and I even contributed some source changes to the ROM community that I was part of. That was what opened my eyes to just how monumentally stupid Android was made. Every time Google came out with a new version of Android it was back to square one, back to the drawing board, back to starting from scratch with implementing a lot of the changes that the ROM I had chosen to use had in its feature set. There was no "Oh, we'll just apply this big DIFF file and we'll be good to go". Far from it!

Like I said before, I contributed some code changes to include a feature; a very minor feature. To do this I had to hack a hell of a lot of XML and Java source code to make it possible. There was no plugin architecture much like what Google Chrome and Firefox has where you can install an extension and it just works. Even Windows has an extension API. If you want to add something to the right-click context menu in Windows Explorer all you have to do is add some appropriate Registry entries and you're good to go. If you want to add a panel/tab to the File Properties window all you have to do is write an extension, compile it to a DLL, add the appropriate Registry entries, and it's loaded with relatively no effort at all. With Android there is none of that... if you want to add something you have to get down and dirty with the code. No wonder why Android as a platform is a mess.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Apr 11, 2018)

I feel sorry for you, Verizon locks their bootloaders like AT&T does, really can't put custom roms on their phones or have custom backup. You could check out XDA forums and ask there too.


----------



## Space Lynx (Apr 11, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> I feel sorry for you, Verizon locks their bootloaders like AT&T does, really can't put custom roms on their phones or have custom backup. You could check out XDA forums and ask there too.



I tried installing Lineage OS 15.1 on my Leco Pro 3 phone, its one of the few phones that supports the new andoid oreo 15.1 Lineage ROM - i followed every step... cant figure it out for the life of me, i run command prompt but dont know how to navigate tot he right adb folder to start the flashing process... ugh. i just gave up lol

i mail my phone to you, you flash it to Lineage 15.1 for me for $5 i pay shipping both ways?


----------



## windwhirl (Apr 11, 2018)

Between the bloatware by OEMs and Carriers, and how slow Android updates are (or just non-existent, depending on your device), I'd rather keep using a Windows Phone... At least until I can get my hands on a Nokia phone.


----------



## theFOoL (Apr 11, 2018)

Being once we switch carriers from Verizon (costing too much) to another I'll be Happy. AT&T or walmarts phones which I think you can root and install custom roms. Either that or I'll be buying a Chinese phone that does support the AT&T bands


----------



## dorsetknob (Apr 14, 2018)

Fruit ( Prunes and figs  ) for your Rant

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/13/slow_android_security_fixes/


----------



## theFOoL (Apr 14, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Fruit ( Prunes and figs  ) for your Rant
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/04/13/slow_android_security_fixes/


I get why. Android is basically Linux thus Linux has no viruses / spyware but some people have found a way from Android to break the OS. Just if you be careful which some aren't and some are, I can understand why these security updates are important


----------



## Shihab (Apr 14, 2018)

Because hardware vendors make for bad software ones (and vice versa), with perhaps the sole exception being Apple.



trparky said:


> Every time Google came out with a new version of Android it was back to square one, back to the drawing board, back to starting from scratch with implementing a lot of the changes that the ROM I had chosen to use had in its feature set. There was no "Oh, we'll just apply this big DIFF file and we'll be good to go". Far from it!



That's what you get from a strategy that prioritizes rapid introduction of new "features" at the expense of long term stability. Which is sadly is becoming the trend with most major vendors these days (Looking at you, Microsoft).



rk3066 said:


> I get why. Android is basically Linux thus Linux has no viruses / spyware but some people have found a way from Android to break the OS. Just if you be careful which some aren't and some are, I can understand why these security updates are important



A malware is basically a code wrote with malicious intents. Any OS that allows the execution of external code has malware, Linux is no exception. It just has a small list of [consumer targeting] malware due to its VERY low market share, and their effects tend to be minimal due to the higher awareness of linux users and large manpower behind its development relative to user base.
But they do exist, nevertheless. Even before Android skyrocketed Linux's popularity (and gained its own share of Android-specific malware).


----------



## BiggieShady (Apr 14, 2018)

The more bloatware phone maker has on the phones, slower the updates are rolled out ... you gotta test and make sure all that garbage works with updates OS


----------



## trparky (Apr 14, 2018)

Shihabyooo said:


> That's what you get from a strategy that prioritizes rapid introduction of new "features" at the expense of long term stability. Which is sadly is becoming the trend with most major vendors these days (Looking at you, Microsoft).


It also comes from the fact that in Android there's no real API framework to plug stuff into the system with. As I stated before with Windows, if you want to add something to Windows all you need to do is add a DLL or add some stuff to the Registry and you are done. From a purely technical point of view Windows is superior in every way to other operating systems because it allows for a lot of customization without having to do anything with core code. Even the driver framework of Windows is superior to Linux because drivers aren't part of the kernel, they're loaded into kernel-space at kernel initialization time. This of course make it so that drivers that were for Windows 7 can (in theory) work in Windows 10. This is brought about by what is sometimes referred to as an ABI or Application Binary Interface, Linux does not have one.

Had Google shipped Android with a skinning engine of sorts (think WindowBlinds) you could build your entire UI in XML and have that XML file loaded at boot time thus completely changing the way the whole entire UI is displayed to the user along with an extension system similar to what every single modern web browser has to extend the system. This, unfortunately, wasn't done when Android was released and that's why adding just about anything to Android is a complete pain in the ass. Google desperately needs to build these frameworks so that you can change everything about Android without having to touch core Android code, the moment you touch the core code is the moment you make patching a complete headache.

If you look at how Apple does things with iOS you'll see what I mean. Things like PhoneKit, ARKit, and the various other "kits" that iOS has that allows apps to plug into iOS without having to change core iOS code. Think of all of these "kits" as nothing more than an extension framework that allows apps to do things and plug into the OS. This, from a purely technical standpoint, is superior in every way to having to hack stuff into the core code of the OS. Google has learned this lesson the hard way and you can see this in Android Oreo, though they are baby steps.


----------



## Shihab (Apr 15, 2018)

trparky said:


> From a purely technical point of view Windows is superior in every way to other operating systems because it allows for a lot of customization without having to do anything with core code.


Wasn't modularity a mantra for Linux?



trparky said:


> Even the driver framework of Windows is superior to Linux because drivers aren't part of the kernel, they're loaded into kernel-space at kernel initialization time.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I isn't this true for all micro and hybrid kernel systems?



trparky said:


> If you look at how Apple does things with iOS you'll see what I mean. Things like PhoneKit, ARKit, and the various other "kits" that iOS has that allows apps to plug into iOS without having to change core iOS code. Think of all of these "kits" as nothing more than an extension framework that allows apps to do things and plug into the OS. This, from a purely technical standpoint, is superior in every way to having to hack stuff into the core code of the OS. Google has learned this lesson the hard way and you can see this in Android Oreo, though they are baby steps.



The way you put it makes me think more of user-space applications than stuff the are directly implemented in the kernel, which is basically what you can do with the standard Android SDK and its API(s), no?


----------



## trparky (Apr 15, 2018)

Shihabyooo said:


> Wasn't modularity a mantra for Linux?


Linux userland is like that but for the most part the kernel isn't.


Shihabyooo said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I isn't this true for all micro and hybrid kernel systems?


Linux much prefers you to compile drivers directly into the kernel, they even prefer you to submit your driver's source code to the kernel source tree so that they can support it if and when the kernel APIs change which can often break drivers. Yes, they do allow binary only drivers but much of the community frowns upon them (to say the least).

Obviously companies like Qualcomm, nVidia, AMD and the like wouldn't want their crown jewels to be out there for all the world to see so generally they only release drivers are binary only drivers which if you upgrade the kernel you'll more than likely end up breaking said driver in the process. That's generally why you'll find that most Android devices share a common Linux kernel version because of things like SoC drivers.


Shihabyooo said:


> The way you put it makes me think more of user-space applications than stuff the are directly implemented in the kernel, which is basically what you can do with the standard Android SDK and its API(s), no?


If that was the case than why the hell do we have things like TouchWiz, SensiUI, and the like that pretty much bastardizes Android to the point where it's a shell of its former self? If there was truly an API to extend and customize Android in the ways I envision it should be done there would not be a need for things like TouchWiz, SensiUI, and the like; all the changes would be done in a sort of Android skinning engine with XML and anything else would be loaded like Chrome extensions. That right there would make patching infinitely much easier to do so since no core code was changed.

That's the problem with a lot of Android. Applying patches all the while making sure that it doesn't break your custom code is a complete pain in the ass. This needs to change if Android is to evolve into a modern modular operating system which at this point is far from it. There are rumors that something called Google Fuchsia is going to be more modular and replace Android but that's years from now, it's still very young and not even close to replacing Android and until that happens Android is going to continue to be the mess that it is.


----------



## The_DriverX (Apr 15, 2018)

One issue is the various kernel versions being used on many Android powered devices. Not all drivers or environment attributes work across the board. It seems like phone/tablet manufacturers don't take charge with rewriting "special" drivers (if needed) and testing them with newer kernels (which usually goes hand-in-hand with newer versions of Android). It takes more work than most manufacturers are willing to invest (like no name brands or less common phone/tablet manufacturers). Company like Samsung for example, provides updates (and some times upgrades), but Samsung has a large user base. As others have stated above, even company's like Samsung do seem to take their time after Google releases updates. Just my thoughts...


----------

