# who wants to help build a dual stage cascade?



## cdawall (Mar 2, 2008)

i just read through this and realized that a cascade wouldn't be as hard as i thought it would be. anyone in the houston, TX area want to build one and start a team houston or something?


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## Necrofire (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry, but I just had one question.
Why do you want to build this?


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## cdawall (Mar 3, 2008)

Necrofire said:


> Sorry, but I just had one question.
> Why do you want to build this?



why not? super cool a PC and set WRs for TPU sounds like a win win for me


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## Necrofire (Mar 3, 2008)

I mean, it'd be cool to set a WR for highest something, or lowest something, but doesn't this use a lot of power, and cost a lot?

It's not like you can use this as a permanent solution to cooling, and what about condensation?


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## Disparia (Mar 3, 2008)

Not my thing...







But good luck to you!


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## Necrofire (Mar 3, 2008)

The radiator is beastly, what's wrong with using a regular radiator as a heatsink, using water cooling, and simply keeping anything you want around room temp, instead of at a terribly low temp where you're prone to damage from condensation?


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## pt (Mar 3, 2008)

easier to buy some cooper containers and dry ice
a cascade will come as cheap as 200€ (with luck)


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## TechnicalFreak (Mar 3, 2008)

> _The Prescott goes to 5.1 Ghz_



Ok, now that looks rather "cool"..
I guess that if you lived in sweden, your "dreams" would come true. I can actually get most of the parts needed for the cooling process....


...for free.


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## cdawall (Mar 3, 2008)

Necrofire said:


> The radiator is beastly, what's wrong with using a regular radiator as a heatsink, using water cooling, and simply keeping anything you want around room temp, instead of at a terribly low temp where you're prone to damage from condensation?



hmmm well lets see -111C or room temp...



TechnicalFreak said:


> Ok, now that looks rather "cool"..
> I guess that if you lived in sweden, your "dreams" would come true. I can actually get most of the parts needed for the cooling process....
> 
> 
> ...for free.



now do you live in the houston area 

its not that hard to get one or two you just pick up some old window AC units there are tons of those in junk yards


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## Rapid (Mar 3, 2008)

I would be very interested to see this build documented dude 
If your going to do this then good luck dude! Looks like one heck of a project!!


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## cdawall (Mar 3, 2008)

i will be doing this as soon as i can source the parts


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## Necrofire (Mar 4, 2008)

Good luck. Not something I'm into, but awesome nonetheless.


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## cdawall (Mar 4, 2008)

hopefully this works out im hoping for 3.6ghz+ on my venice 3000+


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## Saakki (Mar 5, 2008)

dudes around finland build them pretty much so why not u too..go for it i say..and torture that poor 3000+ !!


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## cdawall (Mar 5, 2008)

Saakki said:


> dudes around finland build them pretty much so why not u too..go for it i say..and torture that poor 3000+ !!



if all else fails i will just make my 3000+ explode


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## Necrofire (Mar 6, 2008)

The venice you're getting, is it just the single core?

I had a 3200+ I was able to get to 2.5GHz easy with these settings:
crappy ram, slightly above 200MHz (>400 effective)
HT clock at 5x, 1000MHz
cpu core at 1.35V, it was the limit on the mobo.

I'm sure you could crank that thing up.

EDIT: It was also a Venice, and I've stayed with Venice cores for a very long time, my X2 6000+ is a Venice (obviously)


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## blkhogan (Mar 6, 2008)

Hahahaha.... I was wondering when I would see this thread.  I own a HVAC/R company here in the pacific northwest. So I have actualy played with this area of "potental" cpu / gpu cooling.  I have been successful on some, and not so on others. I havent actualy done a "cascade" system but I do work on them.  The problem that most peeps run into is not being able to control condensation. That is the biggest problem with this type of cooling. It can be minimized but not really 100% stoped. Where you have a temp difference you will have condensation in one way or another. You also have to figure in what type of refrigerant are you going to use? Window a/c's run R-22 not a real good choice for this application. Can be done, but not real effiiciently at the temps you are talking about. 

Would be interesting to see. Don't live even close to you, but i would be happy to help out with the project if you would like. I have been doing refrigeration for about 10 years and have experiance with about everything out there. Keep us posted if you decide to go ahead and try it.

-Hogan


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## cdawall (Mar 6, 2008)

i will probable do R22 for the high stage and R410a as a second refrigerant they are pretty cheap and maybe if i can some R1150 to replace the R410a


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## blkhogan (Mar 8, 2008)

R-22 would be good for your top end. I wouldnt suggest using R-410A though.  It runs to high of head pressures, it wouldnt be the best choice.  I would look at some of the retrofit refrigerants for R-12 and R-502. They have better efficiencies at lower temps. If it were my system I would look at R-134A or R-22 for my top end cooling and probably R-404A, Hotshot or maybe MP-39 for a sencond stage cooling. These refrigerants are more efficient at lower temps. If you really get fancy maybe get a 3rd stage going with some R-11 but it is very expensive. 
This thread is getting me all excited  I got some equipment laying around the shop I might try another setup soon. I'll keep you posted if I do. Maybe put together a step by step log thread.

-Hogan


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## cdawall (Mar 8, 2008)

haha it has me excited to


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## boshuter (Mar 17, 2008)

blkhogan said:


> R-22 would be good for your top end. I wouldnt suggest using R-410A though.  It runs to high of head pressures, it wouldnt be the best choice.  I would look at some of the retrofit refrigerants for R-12 and R-502. They have better efficiencies at lower temps. If it were my system I would look at R-134A or R-22 for my top end cooling and probably R-404A, Hotshot or maybe MP-39 for a sencond stage cooling. These refrigerants are more efficient at lower temps. If you really get fancy maybe get a 3rd stage going with some R-11 but it is very expensive.
> This thread is getting me all excited  I got some equipment laying around the shop I might try another setup soon. I'll keep you posted if I do. Maybe put together a step by step log thread.
> 
> -Hogan



No offense to either of you, but you guys shouldn't be thinking about building a cascade. It's pretty obvious that neither of you have a clue about this stuff. I build custom phase systems for the last few years, but have only done one cascade due to not being able to aquire/afford the gas for the second stage, I used CO2 as the second stage gas but ran into a lot of problems with the CO2 subliming (freezing and turning into dry ice) and blocking the cap tube. To be effective a cascade needs something like r1150 (ethylene), r23, or r508b; All of those are VERY high pressure gases and are dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. Most cascades are built using r507,r404a, or r402a as a first stage gas, suggesting using r11 as a 3rd stage gas tells me you don't need to be considering a build like this (r11 has a boiling point of +24c). 

Do a lot more reading, ask a lot of questions, and please try a couple of simple single stage systems before you tackle a cascade. 

Please understand I'm not trying to put you guys down.... it's just that what you are considering can be very dangerous if you don't understand exactly what is going on.


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## cdawall (Mar 17, 2008)

boshuter said:


> No offense to either of you, but you guys shouldn't be thinking about building a cascade. It's pretty obvious that neither of you have a clue about this stuff. I build custom phase systems for the last few years, but have only done one cascade due to not being able to aquire/afford the gas for the second stage, I used CO2 as the second stage gas but ran into a lot of problems with the CO2 subliming (freezing and turning into dry ice) and blocking the cap tube. To be effective a cascade needs something like r1150 (ethylene), r23, or r508b; All of those are VERY high pressure gases and are dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. Most cascades are built using r507,r404a, or r402a as a first stage gas, suggesting using r11 as a 3rd stage gas tells me you don't need to be considering a build like this (r11 has a boiling point of +24c).
> 
> Do a lot more reading, ask a lot of questions, and please try a couple of simple single stage systems before you tackle a cascade.
> 
> Please understand I'm not trying to put you guys down.... it's just that what you are considering can be very dangerous if you don't understand exactly what is going on.



thanks i understand your probably just trying to keep us from killing ourselves 

what would you recommend for a good single stage?


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## boshuter (Mar 18, 2008)

cdawall said:


> thanks i understand your probably just trying to keep us from killing ourselves
> 
> what would you recommend for a good single stage?



I'm glad you took it the way I meant.... I hate to sound like I'm trying to preach, or put someone down, but a cascade is just not something a new builder should jump into.

A good simple single stage can easily be done by most people with minimal tools. Try to use at least 1/3hp compressor, the small rotary compressors in most newer window ac units are excellent and have plenty of power for even a quad cpu. Very good deals on compressors can be found on Ebay, and I've seen some of those 5000BTU window ac units in pawn shops for around $40-$50. For evaps, condensers, misc. parts, check out Undertheice (dot) com it's a phase change store owned by Ron McAll (RunMC) from XS. He has a very good list of some of the parts that are hard to find elsewhere.

If you want some specific info, feel free to pm me, or post questions in this thread and I'll be glad to help all I can. If you would like I can post a build I did with a 3/4hp rotary that is about as simple as it gets, it was meant as a benching unit so we kept it simple, no case, controller, or anything it didn't need.

Good luck.... it's a lot of fun building phase units, and it feels good when you know you did it yourself


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## boshuter (Mar 18, 2008)

Here are some single stages I've done for people. The first one would be the simplest way to go and is best for a benching system, especially with a quad. The guy that has it now runs a QX9650 at 4.65ghz completely stable and can bench at 4.8ghz, he runs this unit at least 8-12hrs a day running a chess program. 










This next one is 2 single stages in one case, it's made to sit under a UFO Duality Case and 
cool both systems.... this was not an easy build  It was also not cheap, it has controllers on both systems and is made to run 24/7 if he wants.






Here are a couple shots of the inside, space was at a premium 










This last one is also a very simple build, it's the first time I've built my own case. The case is made from aluminum and it uses a simple temp reader instead of a controller to keep cost down....
















Hope you like them...


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## PrudentPrincess (Mar 18, 2008)

Nice work!


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## Wile E (Mar 18, 2008)

That last one looks a lot like a Vapoli SS.

What kind of loads can a single stage be built to handle?


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## DaMulta (Mar 18, 2008)

boshuter you should start a for sale thread here for people that want them

Just an idea, prepay before build of course.


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## boshuter (Mar 18, 2008)

DaMulta said:


> boshuter you should start a for sale thread here for people that want them
> 
> Just an idea, prepay before build of course.



Sometimes I just build one and list it, most forums don't allow listing services. Most of the time I just get a PM or contacted via email or IM if someone wants a build. Normally I ask for 50% up front, then the rest when the build is finished and ready to ship, that way I'm not out a lot for parts if they back out.



> That last one looks a lot like a Vapoli SS.
> 
> What kind of loads can a single stage be built to handle?



I made that case the same size as the Vapo LS so it would fit under a Lian Li case. You can build a single stage to handle almost any load you want. They need to be tuned to a max load, you want to tune for a load that is enough, but not too high. Capacity and temps are directly related, the higher the capacity, the higher the temps. That rotary in the first pic was tuned for 235-250w, with the QX9650 he is running it on at 4.65ghz it is putting out approximately 210-215watts and that singe stage is holding it at -46c.


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## cdawall (Mar 18, 2008)

would one of these work to snag the compressor out of?


http://cgi.ebay.com/FEDDERS-A6X08F2...ryZ79625QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Wile E (Mar 18, 2008)

boshuter said:


> Sometimes I just build one and list it, most forums don't allow listing services. Most of the time I just get a PM or contacted via email or IM if someone wants a build. Normally I ask for 50% up front, then the rest when the build is finished and ready to ship, that way I'm not out a lot for parts if they back out.
> 
> 
> 
> I made that case the same size as the Vapo LS so it would fit under a Lian Li case. You can build a single stage to handle almost any load you want. They need to be tuned to a max load, you want to tune for a load that is enough, but not too high. Capacity and temps are directly related, the higher the capacity, the higher the temps. That rotary in the first pic was tuned for 235-250w, with the QX9650 he is running it on at 4.65ghz it is putting out approximately 210-215watts and that singe stage is holding it at -46c.


How much would you charge for a unit tuned for 250-275W, in a box like the last one (the Vapoli looking one) with a controller?


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## boshuter (Mar 19, 2008)

cdawall said:


> would one of these work to snag the compressor out of?
> 
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/FEDDERS-A6X08F2...ryZ79625QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



That would be an excellent compressor. The compressor in that rotary system I posed was 7800btu (around 3/4hp), this one is almost the same if not slightly more powerful. That is more than enough to handle any quad at single stage oc's.




> How much would you charge for a unit tuned for 250-275W, in a box like the last one (the Vapoli looking one) with a controller?



I don't think we should be discussing that in open forum.   I'll send you a pm.


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## blkhogan (Mar 19, 2008)

boshuter said:


> No offense to either of you, but you guys shouldn't be thinking about building a cascade. It's pretty obvious that neither of you have a clue about this stuff. I build custom phase systems for the last few years, but have only done one cascade due to not being able to aquire/afford the gas for the second stage, I used CO2 as the second stage gas but ran into a lot of problems with the CO2 subliming (freezing and turning into dry ice) and blocking the cap tube. To be effective a cascade needs something like r1150 (ethylene), r23, or r508b; All of those are VERY high pressure gases and are dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. Most cascades are built using r507,r404a, or r402a as a first stage gas, suggesting using r11 as a 3rd stage gas tells me you don't need to be considering a build like this (r11 has a boiling point of +24c).
> 
> Do a lot more reading, ask a lot of questions, and please try a couple of simple single stage systems before you tackle a cascade.
> 
> Please understand I'm not trying to put you guys down.... it's just that what you are considering can be very dangerous if you don't understand exactly what is going on.




Wow I dont know anything? Thats strange its my name I see when I sign a check for the company that I own. Stange I dont know anything when I hold a state board certification for HVAC/R technology. Wow I didnt know I was so stupid? I guess I better shut down my HVAC/R (stands for Heating venting a/c & refrigeration) company because I dont know anything about it. Hmmmm... I just didnt work on a 3 stage one at the hospital that I wasnt at today. Man Im glad there are really smart people like you out there to save my uneducated ass, thank you so much. LoL 

-Hogan


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## boshuter (Mar 19, 2008)

blkhogan said:


> Wow I dont know anything? Thats strange its my name I see when I sign a check for the company that I own. Stange I dont know anything when I hold a state board certification for HVAC/R technology. Wow I didnt know I was so stupid? I guess I better shut down my HVAC/R (stands for Heating venting a/c & refrigeration) company because I dont know anything about it. Hmmmm... I just didnt work on a 3 stage one at the hospital that I wasnt at today. Man Im glad there are really smart people like you out there to save my uneducated ass, thank you so much. LoL
> 
> -Hogan



Sorry you were offended.... all I had to go by what what you posted, and that was enough to convince me that you didn't know what you were talking about. Tell you what, you explain how r11 would be a good gas for the 3rd stage in a 3 stage cascade and I'll apologize(we won't even go into the rest of what you said). Or better yet, post some of your builds, it's easy to post about anything, showing some actual results is a little harder. 

Your attitude only confirms my first impression, if you were a professional, you would take the time to explain why I was wrong and you were right.... not just add another post like the last one. I took the time to explain why r11 is not suitable as a 3rd (or any stage) gas in a cascade.... if I'm wrong I would love to hear why you think so, and I promise not to throw a little fit over it. If you worked on a 3 stage commercial cascade today, give me the make and model number and I'll look it up and see what gases they are using.... bottom line.... I explained why I thought  you didn't know what you were talking about, tell me why I was wrong.


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## intel igent (Mar 19, 2008)

guys please keep the peace and be creative 

i dont know much about this stuff but this link might help you 

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80

wasnt shure if you were aware of it or not


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## blkhogan (Mar 19, 2008)

boshuter said:


> Sorry you were offended.... all I had to go by what what you posted, and that was enough to convince me that you didn't know what you were talking about. Tell you what, you explain how r11 would be a good gas for the 3rd stage in a 3 stage cascade and I'll apologize(we won't even go into the rest of what you said). Or better yet, post some of your builds, it's easy to post about anything, showing some actual results is a little harder.
> 
> Your attitude only confirms my first impression, if you were a professional, you would take the time to explain why I was wrong and you were right.... not just add another post like the last one. I took the time to explain why r11 is not suitable as a 3rd (or any stage) gas in a cascade.... if I'm wrong I would love to hear why you think so, and I promise not to throw a little fit over it. If you worked on a 3 stage commercial cascade today, give me the make and model number and I'll look it up and see what gases they are using.... bottom line.... I explained why I thought  you didn't know what you were talking about, tell me why I was wrong.




Wow I guess you didnt see this LoL  

Not worth my time or effort to explain something to someone who of course already knows everything about it. This started as a fun thread between a couple people and it changed to this. It wasn't a who's wrong or right post, but I see you took it that way. No problem, I'm not here to get into pissing matches with people over the internet. 

-Hogan


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## DaMulta (Mar 19, 2008)

BACK ON TOPIC FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

This looks just flipping sweet.






----


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## TechnicalFreak (Mar 19, 2008)

cdawall said:


> hmmm well lets see -111C or room temp...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True..
Question, what parts (cooling) do you need to start the "project"?
I know that they have actually bought some parts from US, they were there during last summer. And they also did rent a Dodge Viper and were doing donuts until the cops showed up 

<edit>
If you ever would need spareparts (electronics) for the cooling system - let me know (send a PM)..


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## boshuter (Mar 19, 2008)

@ DaMulta.... I saw the thread on XS where you had purchased that unit. Like everyone else that builds phase units, I'm anxiously awaiting your results with it.  That review on Tweaktown just wasn't much good, you can't test a phase unit with a TEC. We use load testers that are copper blocks with cartridge heaters inside them and use a variac to vary the voltage to the heater for different loads. Of course the real test is just bolt it to a cpu and see what happens. 

@ TechnicalFreak.... For a basic "ghetto" single stage, most of the parts you would need can be salvaged out of a small window ac unit. The hardest part to come up with is the evaporator, a new Chilly1 evap and mount kit runs $85. It's possible to make your own evap and there are many ways to do this, the best way I've found is to use a Maze4 gpu block, take the top off and brace some copper caps to it, I made a couple of those and they actually performed very well against the commercial ones. If you are interested, lmk and I'll post pics of how to do that. 

The best solution is grab the compressor out of the ac unit (and maybe the condenser, if  you don't mind the size), and get the rest of the parts from someplace like "Under the Ice", he has all those little misc parts that are hard to chase down, and some nice small condensers (like the ones in the builds I posted) that will fit in a single stage case. 

If you are good with electronics, there is a big demand for someone that can design a reliable phase change controller that can be made at a decent price. A couple of people have done this, but the controllers always end up costing $150.


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## cdawall (Mar 19, 2008)

boshuter said:


> @ DaMulta.... I saw the thread on XS where you had purchased that unit. Like everyone else that builds phase units, I'm anxiously awaiting your results with it.  That review on Tweaktown just wasn't much good, you can't test a phase unit with a TEC. We use load testers that are copper blocks with cartridge heaters inside them and use a variac to vary the voltage to the heater for different loads. Of course the real test is just bolt it to a cpu and see what happens.
> 
> @ TechnicalFreak.... For a basic "ghetto" single stage, most of the parts you would need can be salvaged out of a small window ac unit. The hardest part to come up with is the evaporator, a new Chilly1 evap and mount kit runs $85. It's possible to make your own evap and there are many ways to do this, the best way I've found is to use a Maze4 gpu block, take the top off and brace some copper caps to it, I made a couple of those and they actually performed very well against the commercial ones. If you are interested, lmk and I'll post pics of how to do that.
> 
> ...



the chilly1 evap is just a chunk of copper thats got a spiral around it correct?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49848

so basically i could get a hunk of leftover copper and machine it at my grandfathers shop...for free

does anyone have a 3D CAD shot of that block?


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## boshuter (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't have a Cad shot of them, but here are some various designs used by some very well known builders. The Kayle evap would be the easiest to make on a lathe and IMO works better than the Chilly evap.


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## TechnicalFreak (Mar 20, 2008)

boshuter said:


> I don't have a Cad shot of them, but here are some various designs used by some very well known builders. The Kayle evap would be the easiest to make on a lathe and IMO works better than the Chilly evap.



Do you buy these or did you do "manufacture" them with help of say a CNC machine (lathe/milling)??
What's the size of one of them?

<edit>
Sorry I forgot to ask you some more questions.. 
The "gas" for cooling (R something), which one of them is best for cooling? Yeah, I know the pressure on the tubes, that's why I would rather have professionals deal with that part.

As for the compressor, I think I can get a hold of one. Does the "size" matter? This one is from a cooling system to cool a house or something like that...


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## boshuter (Mar 20, 2008)

TechnicalFreak said:


> Do you buy these or did you do "manufacture" them with help of say a CNC machine (lathe/milling)??
> What's the size of one of them?
> 
> <edit>
> ...



I've been buying my evaps, I've use the Chilly1 the most and a Cryostar (not in pic). Anyone with a manual or CNC lathe could make their own. Most evaps are 1 1/2" diameter and 1 1/4"-1 1/2" tall.

For a single stage, r507 is the most popular, r404a is almost identical in performance and usually easier to find at local refrigeration shops. R402a is also good, it has a little better temps, but also a little higher pressure.

For a compressor, it depends on what you are building the single stage for; For a unit that has to be cased, a reciprocation compressor is best due to the size, and they run cooler. Try to get at minimun 1/4hp, 1/3 to 3/8hp is better. The Danfoss NL11FX is very popular and they are 3/8hp. For a benching single stage, a rotary is the way to go, the larger the better as long as you stay with 110v. (unless you just want to run 220v). A rotary is more powerful than a reciprocating compressor, but do run hotter and a little louder. Keep in mind that the more power the compressor has and the more load you plan to cool with it will dictate the condenser size as well. Thats why a cased unit is sometimes limited by what size condenser you can fit in it.


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## cdawall (Mar 21, 2008)

boshuter said:


> I don't have a Cad shot of them, but here are some various designs used by some very well known builders. The Kayle evap would be the easiest to make on a lathe and IMO works better than the Chilly evap.



thanks we have a cnc at my school so i can even use it as a contest entry


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## cdawall (Mar 24, 2008)

boshuter said:


> I don't have a Cad shot of them, but here are some various designs used by some very well known builders. The Kayle evap would be the easiest to make on a lathe and IMO works better than the Chilly evap.



do you have dimensions for those i am going to draw it in 3D so i can machine it out


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## boshuter (Mar 26, 2008)

The Chilly1 is 1 1/2" diameter X 1 1/4" tall, the Kayle stepper is 1 1/2"D X 1 1/2"T. I don't have exact measurements for the Kayle evap, but have a couple of new Chilly1's sitting here if you need measurements off of them. (just pm me).

I recommend making the stepper type (like Kayle's). I'm ordering a 1' bar of 1 1/2" copper and will be machining some stepper evaps. The stepper is by far the easiest to make, groove size is not "set in stone", something around 1/8" is fine. I'm going to start the drawing of it, and see how various groove widths fit in with the overall height. I'll be doing mine on a manual lathe, not CNC though.


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## cdawall (Mar 26, 2008)

i might end up doing it manually to


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## boshuter (Mar 27, 2008)

Very cool... be sure to post some pics of the finished evap. I'll post mine, but I'm not sure how long it will be, has to be before the end of May, but I want to do a Dice/LN2 pot first. 

Where are you planning on ordering your material from?


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## cdawall (Mar 27, 2008)

my grandfathers shop uses copper and often chunks outs scraps more than big enough to make the evap


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