# realtech onboard hd or x-fi xtreme audio



## exodusprime1337 (Feb 20, 2008)

so i got a choice here, my g/f was walking around compusa and since they're closing figured she'd see if there was anything good layin around.  so she comes home and bam x-fi xtreme audio.  not a very special card i'd say but it's not onboard and i've always like creative's stuff soo the question is?

1. my realtek has a lot of "extra crap" that runs with it hogging resources... does the x-fi too?

2. i dont' use high def headphones or great speakers, just a nice set of altec lansings no sub. does this matter??

3. will i see any benefit in pc performance with this card?? cpu/resources/fps

that's basically all i want to know, before you answer, don't flame creative, that's not what i was asking, don't tell me to ditch this card and get another card altogether if she didn't come home with it i'd stick with onboard and call it a day.  just tell me the facts please?? thanks in advance people.


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## Nitro-Max (Feb 20, 2008)

For gaming xfi because it has EAX so you will hear more in games and can be an advantage over players that dont have eax.


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## panchoman (Feb 20, 2008)

imo, i suggest just getting a good audigy se.. as it'll provide clean and like x-fi sound but without the x-fi chip (which only really helps when you have an x-fi game). and since you wont be using like dts etc you know


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## ktr (Feb 20, 2008)

I would go for the X-fi, it slightly improves game performance in FPS (1-5fps), and you will enjoy EAX 5.0 in gaming.


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## exodusprime1337 (Feb 20, 2008)

ok cool, yeah this isnt' the xtreme music or gamer, just the auido, i hear it's not really a card for gaming but i wanted to know

is that ok that it's not the music or gamer card, will it still sound better in a way??


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## panchoman (Feb 20, 2008)

if im not mistaken, the x-fi xtreme audio card contains a fake x-chip.. basically an audigy chip emulating x-fi functions and does a crap job at it.. and if thats the case.. dont expect gaming performance etc.


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## exodusprime1337 (Feb 20, 2008)

so you'd say if i had a chance the audigy se card might be better? i think i have one of the 7.1 versions of those?? anybody got one and like it??


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## imperialreign (Feb 21, 2008)

exodusprime1337 said:


> so i got a choice here, my g/f was walking around compusa and since they're closing figured she'd see if there was anything good layin around.  so she comes home and bam x-fi xtreme audio.  not a very special card i'd say but it's not onboard and i've always like creative's stuff soo the question is?
> 
> 1. my realtek has a lot of "extra crap" that runs with it hogging resources... does the x-fi too?
> 
> ...




Well the Xtreme Audio is on par with onboard - audio quality is a little bit better than HD onboard in most cases.  You might notice a little bit of an improement in audio quality, though - I can't remember if the XA is capable of EAX 3,4 and 5; I think it offers the positional audio and crystallizer, though.

It makes use of a Creative chipset, as compared to the X-Fi audio processor, so don't expect any real type of performance gain with it.  It's really just a re-branded Audigy card, but still decent for your average use.

I'd say give it a shot, see if you like it or not before finally deciding.


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## panchoman (Feb 21, 2008)

reviews are very helpful in this case.. 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16829102007

yup its a fake x-fi 

no acceleration, no eax.


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## Hawk1 (Feb 21, 2008)

Also, if it does it, don't expect EAX in any games in Vista. It's not supported and, so far, there hasn't been any workaround proposed by Creative (although I havent kept up with the latest from them).


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## imperialreign (Feb 21, 2008)

Hawk1 said:


> Also, if it does it, don't expect EAX in any games in Vista. It's not supported and, so far, there hasn't been any workaround proposed by Creative (although I havent kept up with the latest from them).



yeah, there are work arounds - still buggy, though.

Creative have issued the ALchemy drivers, which can be found on Creative's download page, and there's also OpenAL, which brings out other functions and has been under progressive development for a few years now: http://openal.org/


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## kenkickr (Feb 21, 2008)

The only issue I have seen with Audigy SE-ZS cards is if they have a gameport, well Vista will not let you use it.  Limitation of the OS.


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## exodusprime1337 (Feb 21, 2008)

well we went back and they were nice enough to let me trade it for the audigy se and i must say it's very very nice sounding compart to my crap onboard, a lot crisper and more distinct sounding.  thanx for all the advice guys.  now the audigy isn't going to hurt performance is it??


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## trog100 (Feb 21, 2008)

i have just ditched my Audigy 4 card to use onboard sounds.. i aint short of system resources so i cant use that argument for keeping it.. i would dispute the fact my realtek onboards are crap thow.. 

trog


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## panchoman (Feb 21, 2008)

exodusprime1337 said:


> well we went back and they were nice enough to let me trade it for the audigy se and i must say it's very very nice sounding compart to my crap onboard, a lot crisper and more distinct sounding.  thanx for all the advice guys.  now the audigy isn't going to hurt performance is it??



it shouldn't


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## mrhuggles (Feb 21, 2008)

i have one of those x-fi extreme audio PCIe cards, it sucks, but its way better than my realtek onboard audio was, it only has EAX4 not 5, and it doesnt accelerate anything in any way, pure software just like the realtek, it has good output, I'd say, if you can get it for 20 dollars its great, otherwise dont bother cuz its only a 20 dollar sound card.


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## exodusprime1337 (Feb 21, 2008)

do the audigy cards offer any hardware accelleration?


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## department76 (Feb 21, 2008)

audigy 2 definately has hw acceleration, not sure about others.  audigy 4 was a POS from what i remember and not even much of a real release.  audigy se will be no better than the xtreme audio from my perspective, it has inferior i/o, and is older.

from the sounds of your situation, i'd porbably jsut get the xtreme audio.  it probably wont sound better in terms of audible quality than your onbaord, but it will offer exteneded software featuers such as EAX, crystallizer, headphone positioning, etc, as well as good i/o that your onbaord may or maynot have.  xtreme audio isn't much of a great card, but they're cheap and do offer better support than onboard will.

hope that helps


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## imperialreign (Feb 21, 2008)

exodusprime1337 said:


> well we went back and they were nice enough to let me trade it for the audigy se and i must say it's very very nice sounding compart to my crap onboard, a lot crisper and more distinct sounding.  thanx for all the advice guys.  now the audigy isn't going to hurt performance is it??



The Audigy SE is indeed capable of hardware accelearation, and it won't hurt performance at all, but don't expect to see any massive improvement, either.  It's hard to tell you what exactly it compares to from the X-Fi line, though - which Audigy SE is it?  Audigy 2 SE, Audigy 4 SE, Audigy SE?  Either way, they're still very good cards, especially considering their current prices, and _should_ continue to be supported by Creative for another year or two.  Honestly, I think you made a better choice here, as I can't recommend the X-Fi Xtreme Audio cards to anyone when the Audigys still on the shelf are better.


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## candle_86 (Feb 21, 2008)

my realtek HD sounds great to me, and supports EAX3, and remember most games dont support EAX 4 or 5 just yet.


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## imperialreign (Feb 21, 2008)

candle_86 said:


> my realtek HD sounds great to me, and supports EAX3, and remember most games dont support EAX 4 or 5 just yet.





EAX 4 has been around since 2002, and EAX 5 since 2005

more games than you would think make use of the EAX DSPs . . .

Also - I didn't realize there was any hardware outside of Creative's branded lines that supported anything above EAX 2.0 . . .


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## btarunr (Feb 21, 2008)

panchoman said:


> if im not mistaken, the x-fi xtreme audio card contains a fake x-chip.. basically an audigy chip emulating x-fi functions and *does a crap job at it*.. and if thats the case.. dont expect gaming performance etc.



Wrong, you're mistaken.

A. It's not a fake X-Fi chip. X-Fi is not the name of a chip, it the name of an audio output standard laid down by Creative Labs. You have sound cards, iPod docks, headphones, external audio fiters using the X-Fi technology.

B. Sure the controller is the same as that of the Audigy SE but that doesn't make it fake. It performs the all said X-Fi output functions as in CMSS-3D and X-Fi 24bit Crystalizer, that makes it as much an X-Fi as an Elite Pro. Just that all the hardware acceleration features come with the cards that run the CA20-K1 processor. 

BUT....

Clearly on the box they mention the suggestive usage of the cards as in Music, Movies, Gaming, Audio Creation and the latter two are greyed out on the Xtreme Music box. 

The Xtreme Audio clearly is better than a Realtek codec, the CMSS-3D is worth the hype, at least I felt that way, and this doesn't come with the Audigy SE. Crystalizer is worth it too. I can only convince current X-Fi users with a test: play this stream using Winamp 5: http://somafm.com/groovesalad48.pls  and listen to the difference between using Crystalizer and not. It's a ~64 kbps stream.

There are certain PCI vendor/device ID modded Xtreme Audio drivers that can give those features to an Audigy SE but believe me, you'll be in for a bumpy ride with choppy audio and other issues, there clearly is certain other difference than just a PCI device ID between the Audigy SE and Xtreme Audio.


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## erocker (Feb 21, 2008)

The Audigy SE and the Xfi Extreme Audio are the exact same card, except the Xfi has a few more capacitors on it and a blue pcb.  I use it for gaming and the sound quality is excellent.


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## btarunr (Feb 21, 2008)

The differences are the in the PCI Device ID, and the DAC made by Cirrus Logic Inc., the Xtreme Audio has a later revision I don't have a high-res pic to show that but yes, I read that. And that's probably why despite using a driver-mod for Audigy SE to Xtreme Audio, it makes upto an Xtreme Erratic card.


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## 2112 (May 4, 2008)

It's not erratic at all.

I got FLAC rips of vinyls and MFSL of things like Zappa's Hot Rats or Rush 2112 and they all sound fine. Actually the sound is fuller, I can hear a bit more distinctly each instrument. Still, not much of a difference respect normal Audigy drivers, but worth enough to use the modded drivers. In games seems fine as well, positional sounds precise enough. If there really was any deterioration in the sound, I would have easily spotted it listening to songs like Peaches an regalia, songs I know from like forever... no way I wouldn't notice.

and CMSS-3D is a joke. If you use anything more than 2.1, don't use it or the sound gonna be some kind of horrible cacophony that I hope you never have the misfortune to hear.


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## Specsaver (May 6, 2008)

CMSS 3D  is great for having good positional audio in games when using headphones, sure you can mess up any option so that it is unbearable, but if set up properly CMSS-3D does a great job. 

Oh you bumped 3 month old thread?


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## jonmcc33 (May 6, 2008)

Nitro-Max said:


> For gaming xfi because it has EAX so you will hear more in games and can be an advantage over players that dont have eax.



EAX is dead. OpenAL is the future.


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## btarunr (May 6, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> EAX is dead. OpenAL is the future.



ROFLMAO

EAX 1~5 are extensions under an OpenAL environment, are DSP layers in a DirectSound environment.

So what you refer to as 'the future' is but an API for audio with technologies such as EAX being extensions of it. Games that support it (such as Quake 4) will exploit EAX under OpenAL while others that use DirectSound (such as BF 2) will use EAX under it, if the OS doesn't feature DirectSound, the option is to use ALchemy to translate DirectSound commands to OpenAL.


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## cdawall (May 6, 2008)

off topic but does anyone konw why the 5.1 out on my HD wont output sound from anything but the  realtec HD box?


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## btarunr (May 6, 2008)

Could be because some cards don't use colour coding of the ports as per Intel Azalia specifications. So, a case of connections or maybe that you have to configure the card's driver to run 5.1 after installation. Onboard 'HD' Audio is 100% Intel Azalia compliant and hence come with all the jack-sensing features that can autodetect a 5.1 set plugged in (and also properly colour coded with the ports). The worst part of Creative is that they don't follow such standards, I'm left with a green, gray and orange port, to run 7.1 sets I need a special 1+3 head 3.5mm jack which I can't find here.


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## jonmcc33 (May 6, 2008)

btarunr said:


> ROFLMAO
> 
> EAX 1~5 are extensions under an OpenAL environment, are DSP layers in a DirectSound environment.
> 
> So what you refer to as 'the future' is but an API for audio with technologies such as EAX being extensions of it. Games that support it (such as Quake 4) will exploit EAX under OpenAL while others that use DirectSound (such as BF 2) will use EAX under it, if the OS doesn't feature DirectSound, the option is to use ALchemy to translate DirectSound commands to OpenAL.



ROFLMAO? Really?

http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html

http://www.openal.org/extensions.html

Maybe you don't understand that very well. There is no hardware EAX in Windows Vista with OpenAL. 

Read more here: http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/default.aspx

"In Windows Vista, Microsoft has decided to remove the Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) for DirectSound and DirectSound3D. The HAL is the software layer that in previous Windows operating systems enabled an audio accelerator such as the Sound Blaster X-Fi to provide DirectSound3D applications with hardware accelerated audio. This enabled soundcards to perform tasks such as sample-rate conversion, mixing, 3D spatialization using HRTFs, filtering, and effects processing. Without the HAL, *DirectSound on Windows Vista will be rendered in software with no advanced functionality such as EAX*."

"Although OpenAL has arguably replaced DirectSound3D, particularly in many modern PC Games (e.g. Battlefield 2142, Doom3, Quake 4, Prey, etc.), there are hundreds of older PC games that support DirectSound3D and EAX technology. All of these games will sound empty and lifeless on Vista. As *most DS3D games only enable 3D Audio and EAX if a hardware accelerator is present, most of these games will be reduced to a stereo output*."







Point being? There are games now that don't use EAX and games in the future aren't going to either. Trying to sell someone on a Creative Labs pile of crap with simply the basis of EAX is an utter failure.


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## imperialreign (May 7, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> ROFLMAO? Really?
> 
> http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html
> 
> ...




perhaps you've only read what you wanted of those articles to support your claim?




> . . . As *most DS3D games only enable 3D Audio and EAX if a hardware accelerator is present, most of these games will be reduced to a stereo output*."



what that means is that without OpenAL in WIN Vista, you'll be reduced to stereo output, even if you do have a card capable of hardware acceleration.  What about the countless users still running XP because they find their gaming experience to be better than with Vista?  TBH, I have no need to have OpenAL installed on my rig, nor does any other XP user - as DirectSound does it's job properly.  Only reason I, or any other XP users should have OAL installed is for increased compatibility; otherwise, it's worthless as far as gaming is concerned.

Now, for Vista users - it's a whole other story.  If you want to keep running audio hardware acceleration, you *NEED* OAL - there's no way around it.  But, keep in mind that XP users still outnumber Vista users - and now with official word of MS already having the next incarnation of WIN underway, and that they'll continue support of XP until 2011 (IIRC), there are many users that will continue to use an OS that has no need for OAL.

In general, the average Vista user also has no need for OAL - as long as you're running your motherboards audio solution - Vista can directly work with those audio solutions without a hitch . . . surprisingly.

OpenAL is not "the future" ATM - it's a software workaround that gives full compatibility and use of hardware accelerated sound card features; which is what DirectSound did within WINXP.  OpenAL will not, and cannot replace EAX - although it does replace DirectSound, which MS so convienently trashed during Vistas design process.  MS has even hug to the excuse that moving all the audio to the user level, instead of the kernel, will eliminate many of the crashes, hangs and bugs associated with XP (although, I believe this excuse to be the biggest load of tripe I've heard the last few years - throughout all my many years of using XP, I have yet to have one single crash, system hang, reboot or otherwise that was related, or directly caused by the audio subsystem).

What they don't tell you, though, is that moving the audio stack to the user level has opened a flood gate for poorly written audio code - it takes less skill to write for the user level, as compared to the kernel; and MS - being the experts that they are on this - can verify that shoddy code does not a great user experience make.


Creative is the sole biggest supporter of the OpenAL API, along with a few other companies and countless other individual developers.  Creative continues to push EAX with game developers as well.  To run EAX in Vista, you need OpenAL to translate the calls - but running OpenAL + EAX allows game developers to continue to code for the hardware and OS level; meaning we're left with a solid, uniform coding system almost near across the board.

Besides, there are still quite a few modern, current to 2008 games being released with EAX 5.0/HD support as well, and I forsee that trend continuing, also.  Here, you can check out the most current games that have been added/featured, and the ongoing list of EAX capable games here: http://www.soundblaster.com/technology/welcome.asp?j1=eax  Until Creative officialy dumps the EAX protocols, game developers will continue to use it.


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## jonmcc33 (May 7, 2008)

Sorry, I skipped your post after your first sentence. I know how to read. What it means is that there is no hardware accelerated DirectSound in Windows Vista so there is no EAX, period. You're about the only person here that thinks otherwise. 

You should really go to the Creative Labs forums and read some more.


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## imperialreign (May 7, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Sorry, I skipped your post after your first sentence. I know how to read. What it means is that there is no hardware accelerated DirectSound in Windows Vista so there is no EAX, period. You're about the only person here that thinks otherwise.
> 
> You should really go to the Creative Labs forums and read some more.



I appreciate the arrogance - it really boosts my ego quite a bit.


There is NO DirectSound within Windows Vista.  There is no support for DirectSound within Windows Vista.  There is no software accelerated DirectSound, nor is there hardware accelerated DirectSound - it simply does not exist, nor is it supported within the Vista OS.


Please pinpoint where I stated that it did exist in Vista . . . please.  Go on, I'll wait . . .



. . . in the meantime, why don't you drop your high horse and actually read what I posted before shooting yourself in the foot?

EAX *can* exist within the Vista OS, due to the addition of the OpenAL API - without the user installing OAL, there is no native EAX _*support*_ within Vista.

TBH, I'd spend more time dredging through Creative's forums, if not for the fact that they're packed slam full of Creative bashers who'd rather go beat down someone's door for tepid, petty issues than actually take the time to peacefully get to the root of their concern - and then be willing to help other users out who come across similar issues.  Truth be told, at this point, I find Creative's forums for the most part to be a waste of the infinite that is the internet's resources.


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## btarunr (May 7, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> ROFLMAO? Really?
> 
> http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html
> 
> ...



You have a low understanding of how this works.

Remember OpenGL? Remember Forceware and Catalyst? What makes the OpenGL that ATI gives you different from the one NVidia gives you? Some vendor-specific extensions. How? because your display-driver brings OpenGL _along_ with it. Each display driver installs what is known as a *ICD* or _Installable Client Driver_ So each driver brings its own OpenGL, its own set of vendor-neutral and vendor-specific extensions...that's what makes it 'open'...because each vendor can release his version of it. Same way, while OpenAL doesn't have a well-defined ARB (architecture review board), dominant players such as Creative Labs, NVidia (duning the epic SoundStorm days), Microsoft, etc define standards. So, OpenAL is something you _get_ with your audio driver, not something that's fully loaded with the OS. Yes, your OS (Windows XP/Vista) _do_ ship with basic ICD's for OpenAL just as thay do with OpenGL 1.0 (that software-accelerates your '3D screensaves'), but that the device driver installs a client driver over it. OpenGL and AL are unrelated to eachother though both function as ICD's. In Vista, DirectSound apps use ALchemy (if installed) to communicate with OpenAL and make EAX work. In XP, both DS and OAL are there so each API has its own set of takers (games) that support either API to make EAX work.

What does it mean? That the driver that Creative gives me for my X-Fi has all the extensions that Creative as a vendor is giving me, that Realtek as a vendor cannot...such as EAX 5.0 

Before doing a copy-pasta job with some el-cheapo demotivator, try using your own logic and talk mature.


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## DaedalusHelios (May 7, 2008)

panchoman said:


> imo, i suggest just getting a good audigy se.. as it'll provide clean and like x-fi sound but without the x-fi chip (which only really helps when you have an x-fi game). and since you wont be using like dts etc you know



With the extra "voices" you will hear more in games that don't even support EAX.


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## DaedalusHelios (May 7, 2008)

Jonmc33,

The support that was lost, has since then been patched in with drivers, SP1 etc.

And the fix was old news. The only Fail is you and the lack of research before making a comment like that. :shadedshu


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## Luke (May 7, 2008)

i have a X-Fi xtreme audio PCI-e i like it 
better then my on-board
but my on-board is a realtek ac-97


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## jonmcc33 (May 7, 2008)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Jonmc33,
> 
> The support that was lost, has since then been patched in with drivers, SP1 etc.
> 
> And the fix was old news. The only Fail is you and the lack of research before making a comment like that. :shadedshu



Fixed with SP1? Wow. 

The only thing that "fixes" EAX support is ALchemy, as shown in the links above. It translates EAX calls into OpenAL. The problem, as I have already discussed, is that there are major games now (Call of Duty 4) that do not use EAX at all and there aren't any games in the future that are going to use it. 

EAX really is a dead standard. Still (somewhat) in use now but it has no future. Unless you can show proof otherwise then please do not add your comments in regards to this.


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## btarunr (May 7, 2008)

Let me spoon-feed:

EAX is a DSP, OpenAL is an API.

EAX can operate with the hardware acceleration provided by either API's, DirectSound or OpenAL. 

Applications that used to use DirectSound for passing commands to the EAX DSP ended up in a fix when under Vista. Hence, all that ALchemy does is translates DirectSound commands (and not data) to OpenAL (whose ICD is installed by the audio driver). So there's no loss of signal/quality, etc. And yes, there's 100% hardware acceleration for OpenAL in Vista because the abstraction layer is installed by OpenAL and not the OS kernel. So technically <insert DS app here> enjoys hardware acceleration in Vista albeit  higher latencies.


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## imperialreign (May 7, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Fixed with SP1? Wow.
> 
> The only thing that "fixes" EAX support is ALchemy, as shown in the links above. It translates EAX calls into OpenAL. The problem, as I have already discussed, is that there are major games now (Call of Duty 4) that do not use EAX at all and there aren't any games in the future that are going to use it.
> 
> EAX really is a dead standard. Still (somewhat) in use now but it has no future. Unless you can show proof otherwise then please do not add your comments in regards to this.




ALchemy, by itself, doesn't fix EAX support in Vista - OpenAL by itself doesn't fix EAX support in Vista.  You need both drivers to re-enable EAX support.

And neither of those two driver sets are considered mandatory for proper X-Fi operation within Vista - they're optional, up to the user.

As to the comment of modern games - does it really matter that CoD4 and Crysis don't support EAX?!!  Here's a small list of modern games (a year old, at the most) that support EAX:

Bioshock (2007)
Universe at War (2007-2008)
STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl (2007) (more than likely STALKER: Clear Skies will suppoprt EAX as well)
Timeshift (2007)
Frontlines: Fuel of War (2008)
Unreal Tournament 3 (2007)
FEAR: Perseus Mandate (2007) (as well as the original FEAR, and FEAR: Extraction Point - I reckon Project Origin will support EAX as well)


We will continue to see further EAX supported releases - as I said before, until Creative drops their own technology, or someone else comes along with a better extension, game developers will still continue to use it


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Let me spoon-feed:
> 
> EAX is a DSP, OpenAL is an API.
> 
> ...



Funny, because without ALchemy I haven't seen a single game with EAX actually have EAX effects. 

Sure doesn't work with my Audigy2 ZS at all.


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## btarunr (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Funny, because without ALchemy I haven't seen a single game with EAX actually have EAX effects.



That's because some people beleive in the imaginary power of 'defaults'


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## jammy86 (May 8, 2008)

USE IT! onboard sound is not worth ever using!

JAmes.


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> As to the comment of modern games - does it really matter that CoD4 and Crysis don't support EAX?!!  Here's a small list of modern games (a year old, at the most) that support EAX:
> 
> Bioshock (2007)
> Universe at War (2007-2008)
> ...



Like I said, there are games now that do not support EAX and games in the future will not as well. That means as Window Vista (and DX10) is more adopted. I never said that any games released in the past year did not support EAX, of which you only noted one game released this year and hasn't even done so well.

I guess EAX isn't dead per se but it sure is hanging on my a thread. It really does have no future.

Call of Duty 4 is one of the hottest selling games to come out recently and for it to lack EAX at all is huge.


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

btarunr said:


> That's because some people beleive [sic] in the imaginary power of 'defaults'



Not sure what you mean by that at all.


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## btarunr (May 8, 2008)

Just because a only a handful of games support it doesn't mean it's a dying technology, it's always been that way, that only a handful games fully supported Creative's technologies. For example, just about the same number of games support Ageia-NVidia PhysX API, does it mean it's a dying technology?



jonmcc33 said:


> Not sure what you mean by that at all.



You start a game and expect all settings to be enabled by default. Most people don't even realise they have options to enable EAX features in the audio settings of the game, hear no difference between having EAX and not, then go on telling the world 'EAX is crap'.


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## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Funny, because without ALchemy I haven't seen a single game with EAX actually have EAX effects.
> 
> Sure doesn't work with my Audigy2 ZS at all.



DId you make sure to use to ALchemy drivers for the Audigy series?  The X-Fi ALchemy drivers aren't compatible as far as I'm aware.


But, again, as to your comment - like has been mentioned, you won't have EAX capability within Vista without the use of both ALchemy and OpenAL.  The ALchemy drivers translate the DirectSound calls of the EAX library being implimented by a game into OpenAL calls; which OpenAL then works with at the OS level instead of the user level.  It's a workaround to enable hardware acceleration - and it works, although, as btarunr pointed out, it works at the cost of higher latency.

There's no magic trick, it's no slight of hand - it's a guerilla fix to a shoddy audio kernel design on MS' part.

As much as you might dislike EAX, or it's inevitable continuation - keep in mind that the primary developer behind OpenAL is Creative Labs.

Besides, like EAX, OpenAL doesn't mean squat if the _hardware_ doesn't support it, and as of right now, it's still a rather small list.  All Creative's hardware support OpenAL, as well as the Auzentech Prelude.  The ASUS Xonar D2X (PCIE-x1) supports OpenAL, but the Xonar D2 (PCI) does not.  The Razer Barracuda AC-1 also does not support OpenAL.  Oddly enough, the nVidia SoundStorm still does  

Anyhow . . . OpenAL does have definite promise, much as OpenGL does - but very few open source programs, libraries, or APIs really take off and become "the future"  Biggest reason is typically lack of hardware support and/or software development and support.  EAX has been a 'special' implimentation for game developers, and not every single game since EAX 1.0 has supported it.  Developers have to pay extra for the licensing, and it also require mode coding on their part, and longer development.  Besides, not all game developers have felt it necessary for their software, either, and TBH, many games that don't have EAX support, I can't really imagine just how much it would change the game's audio for the better if it did.


----------



## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> DId you make sure to use to ALchemy drivers for the Audigy series?  The X-Fi ALchemy drivers aren't compatible as far as I'm aware.



ALchemy is not a part of Windows Vista. Thanks for backing up what I've already said.

ALchemy is not a driver: http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/default.aspx

"ALchemy is a software application that translates audio calls from one API to another.  ALchemy is NOT a hardware driver..."



imperialreign said:


> But, again, as to your comment - like has been mentioned, you won't have EAX capability within Vista without the use of both ALchemy and OpenAL.  The ALchemy drivers...



Sorry, I stopped reading after you called ALchemy a "driver" again.


----------



## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> ALchemy is not a part of Windows Vista. Thanks for backing up what I've already said.
> 
> ALchemy is not a driver: http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/default.aspx
> 
> ...



dude . . . get off your high-horse.  Quite arrogant to brood over a grammatical technicality such as that, and especially so to dismiss a whole post by a user for it as well.

I can't say that your used terminology has been that dead-on 100% accurate throughout this page, either; but I find it funny how quick you'll call someone else out.

Petty, IMO. :shadedshu


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

I'm on no high horse. Just trying to properly inform people...unlike you. Not sure if it's hard for you to understand the differences between a driver and application?

Edit- Not sure if I pointed it out but the ALchemy *application* must support the game in order to provide EAX through OpenAL. It doesn't provide instant support at all...as it is not a "driver". 

Look for the "no" under ALchemy support. This is directly from Creative Labs.

http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/Games/AllItems.aspx

Didn't someone say that S.T.A.L.K.E.R. supports EAX? Seems to use OpenAL audio with no support for ALchemy according to Creative Labs.


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## exodusprime1337 (May 8, 2008)

wow jonmcc33.... you um... don't own a card that supports ALchemy... so you probably can't experiment.... you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about because you're taking a proprietary dsp(eax) and saying it's a dying breed where basically it's never really be supported by a wide range of games and applications. The worst is that you're just so damn rude.  You should go find another forum to troll, and stop wasting our time, you don't know what you're talking about. 


oh and thanx for hijacking my thread asshole


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## KainXS (May 8, 2008)

Well, if you haven't decided yet then don't buy the X-fi Xtreme Audio, buy the xtreme music or gamer instead


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

exodusprime1337 said:


> wow jonmcc33.... you um... don't own a card that supports ALchemy... so you probably can't experiment.... you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about because you're taking a proprietary dsp(eax) and saying it's a dying breed where basically it's never really be supported by a wide range of games and applications. The worst is that you're just so damn rude.  You should go find another forum to troll, and stop wasting our time, you don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> oh and thanx for hijacking my thread asshole



Rude? So trying to properly inform you is me being rude? Whatever you say.

What do you mean that I don't own a card that supports ALchemy. Last time I checked Creative Labs did make ALchemy for the Audigy as well.

http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/ALchemy for Audigy/Home.aspx

Yep, I was correct again!


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## btarunr (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Edit- Not sure if I pointed it out but the ALchemy *application* must support the game in order to provide EAX through OpenAL. It doesn't provide instant support at all...as it is not a "driver".





It merely translates commands from one API to another, where's the question of 'instant support'? The translation happens real-time as you're playing a game. Think of it as a compatibility layer.


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## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> I'm on no high horse. Just trying to properly inform people...unlike you. Not sure if it's hard for you to understand the differences between a driver and application?
> 
> Edit- Not sure if I pointed it out but the ALchemy *application* must support the game in order to provide EAX through OpenAL. It doesn't provide instant support at all...as it is not a "driver".
> 
> ...





So, you're saying that I'm not trying to properly inform people (or let me re-phrase that: *correct your incorrect statements*) simply because I goofed on the type of software that ALchemy is?  Pathetic.

Just because a game isn't listed under ALchemy yet does not mean that it won't work, many users have found that if they add the game to the listing on their system, EAX works just fine.  The only difference is that it hadn't been officially added by Creative yet.

And anyhow, not all drivers provide instant support for applications and the like - one would be a fool to believe otherwise 100% of the time.

STALKER does support EAX, and OpenAL.  Sadly, even with the most current patched version of the game, both included libraries are majorly out of date (the EAX library is dated 2001, OpenAL dated 2006).  If a game supports OpenAL, it does not need to have ALchemy support - notice on Creative's games list that DOOM3 isn't listed . . . that's beause it's been patched to directly support OpenAL.


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

btarunr said:


> It merely translates commands from one API to another, where's the question of 'instant support'? The translation happens real-time as you're playing a game. Think of it as a compatibility layer.



Already posted the link but I'll give it to you again...

http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/Games/AllItems.aspx

Yes, you do have to select the game out of the ALchemy application.

http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Downloads/ALchemy Quick Start.pdf


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## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Already posted the link but I'll give it to you again...
> 
> http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/Games/AllItems.aspx
> 
> ...



no, no, no you do not:

http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Downloads/ALchemy%20Quick%20Start.pdf

specifically read the section entitled "*adding/editing games*"


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> So, you're saying that I'm not trying to properly inform people (or let me re-phrase that: *correct your incorrect statements*) simply because I goofed on the type of software that ALchemy is?  Pathetic.



Call it anal if you want. You calling ALchemy a driver at any point is a complete lack of understanding of what you are talking about. I've been using Vista for quite some time and had to put up with massive headaches from Creative Labs with my Audigy2 ZS. Still amazing that some guy named Daniel_K had to release hacked drivers just to implement features that Creative just decided to leave out to force people to buy the newer sound cards.

EAX is nothing to boast about anyway. It is only of use for games that really use positional audio if you have a real 5.1 or better audio system. Battlefield 2 it was great because it put afterburners to the rear speakers so you could actually track aircraft you were tailing just by using your fronts and center speakers. 

But really, I have no need for it now. It was a slight perk but lack of having it hasn't prevented me from dominating in games. 

I just wanted people here to be aware that EAX has no future. That's all. ALchemy isn't for future support but merely so people with older games can use EAX within Windows Vista. If I corrected you or anyone else, don't take it as an insult. I will back up my statements with proof so make sure you can do the same.


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> no, no, no you do not:
> 
> http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Downloads/ALchemy%20Quick%20Start.pdf
> 
> specifically read the section entitled "*adding/editing games*"



Holy crap! I gave you the link and you feed it back to me? That's just too much...


```
When launched, the Creative ALchemy application will search the system for supported DirectSound3D enabled games. All the games found will be listed in the left pane (titled "Installed Games"). The right pane (titled "ALchemy-enabled Games”) will show any games which have already been converted to use ALchemy.

To enable ALchemy support for a particular game, select it from the left panel, and press the “>>” button. To undo ALchemy support, select the game from the right panel and press the “<<” button. You can select multiple games at once and then use the directional arrow buttons to update them all.
```

Like I said! You need to add the freaking game! It doesn't do it by default. Pay attention please. 

Edit- I see why you are so hard headed about this though. X-Fi Support Syndicate? Wow. Creative Labs fanatic...


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## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Call it anal if you want. You calling ALchemy a driver at any point is a complete lack of understanding of what you are talking about. I've been using Vista for quite some time and had to put up with massive headaches from Creative Labs with my Audigy2 ZS. Still amazing that some guy named Daniel_K had to release hacked drivers just to implement features that Creative just decided to leave out to force people to buy the newer sound cards.
> 
> EAX is nothing to boast about anyway. It is only of use for games that really use positional audio if you have a real 5.1 or better audio system. Battlefield 2 it was great because it put afterburners to the rear speakers so you could actually track aircraft you were tailing just by using your fronts and center speakers.
> 
> ...



we're back to square one - go back and actually read the first post I made in this revived thread.  EAX has a fully supported and promising future.  I'd like to see Creative start licensing support for EAX 3 and 4 to increase competition, though . . .




			
				jonmcc33 said:
			
		

> Holy crap! I gave you the link and you feed it back to me? That's just too much...
> 
> 
> Code:
> ...



I fed it back to you as you seem to have confused yourself.  You've been claiming the ALchemy application must support the game for EAX to work, and then you further went on to say that certain games aren't listed in Creative's official list, so they won't work . . .

and after btarunr flogged your idea of instant support by equating the ALchemy software to a running compatibility layer between the in-game EAX calls and the OpenAL API in the Vista OS, you jump the topic by saying that you have to "select the game from within the application"


here, let's roll this back some:



			
				jonmcc33 said:
			
		

> Edit- Not sure if I pointed it out but the ALchemy application must support the game in order to provide EAX through OpenAL. It doesn't provide instant support at all...as it is not a "driver".





			
				btarunr said:
			
		

> It merely translates commands from one API to another, where's the question of 'instant support'? The translation happens real-time as you're playing a game. Think of it as a compatibility layer.





			
				jonmcc33 said:
			
		

> Already posted the link but I'll give it to you again...
> 
> http://connect.creativelabs.com/alch.../AllItems.aspx
> 
> Yes, you do have to select the game out of the ALchemy application.



so, based on me throwing the link back to you - what would you gander based upon that pdf what a user could attempt to do if the game isn't automatically detected by the ALchemy application?

And editing a game in . . . does that mean that the application officially supports that game?!  No, it does not.  Although, the application does support the game, if by editing the game into the app and it works correctly.  

Now, I find it funny only a few posts ago you were criticizing me about unspecific terminology usage - even more so considering that you never initially mentioned that one needs to add the game to the application . . . at least, not until your last post.  Perhaps you should follow some of your own advice as well, and tkae the time to actually read and understand what is being posted here also.


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

Sorry, not going to waste the time reading the post of a Creative Labs fanatic. You're sort of talking with blinders on when you make it that obvious. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinders


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## btarunr (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Sorry, not going to waste the time reading the post of a Creative Labs fanatic. You're sort of talking with blinders on when you make it that obvious.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinders



____________^ Exhibit A1...a troll.


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## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Sorry, not going to waste the time reading the post of a Creative Labs fanatic. You're sort of talking with blinders on when you make it that obvious.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinders



Kinda funny, as I in no way have ever stated, nor do I try to come across as a Creative fanatic, nor fanboi.  I'll stand by their hardware, but the company as a whole have gone down the shitter the last few years.  The whole reason I started the X-Fi thread here was due to the fact that Creative's tech and customer support is an absolute joke.  I saw a need, and I do what I can to help others out when they can't find help elsewhere.  I've never stated that I can defi help fix any X-Fi issue, but damned if I won't try.  Some issues are beyond help, and that's the only time I ever refer another user back to Creative's tech support.


But, that's alright - perhaps you no longer responding to my posts will cut back on the senseless dribble in this thread.  It's alright, I understand - I mean, hell, I wouldn't want you to be wrong or come across foolishly at all.  Just trying to correct false statements and help you and others out, but obviously . . . your knowledge is so vastly superior in these regards that you can be comfortable enough to resort to direct insults.  I'll consider that insulting acknowledgement a privelage that I should be so humbly graced by one so egotistically superior to me . . . I'm so honored, I think I'm gonna cry!


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

Troll? No, just admitting that I am wasting my time talking to the both of you. I should have noticed your signatures earlier. It would have prevented a lot of time burned on my part. 

A member of the X-Fi Syndicate calling ALchemy a driver though? Amazing understanding of the product you supposedly "support".


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## jonmcc33 (May 8, 2008)

imperialreign said:


> ....your knowledge is so vastly superior in these regards that you can be comfortable enough to resort to direct insults.



Direct insults? I didn't use the word "fanboy" like so many kids do these days. Fanatic is not an insult. 

I never said that my knowledge was superior to anyone. I'm just using my references. Go yell at Creative Labs or OpenAL if you don't want to hear the truth. 

If you really wanted to do something about the lack of support for Creative products then why not suggest alternatives?


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## btarunr (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> A member of the X-Fi Syndicate calling ALchemy a driver though? Amazing understanding of the product you supposedly "support".



He's not a Vista guy, I am. I anyway answered (rather spoon-fed) you on the ALchemy part. So the support on XSS is somewhat redundant. People who sought support from us in the past will attest this and so will Google


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## imperialreign (May 8, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Troll? No, just admitting that I am wasting my time talking to the both of you. I should have noticed your signatures earlier. It would have prevented a lot of time burned on my part.
> 
> A member of the X-Fi Syndicate calling ALchemy a driver though? Amazing understanding of the product you supposedly "support".



the whole driver misconception was due to the fact that for the longest time, Creative themselves were calling it a driver, and, TBH, I haven't much kept up with current issues in the ALchemy realm as 1) I don't use WIN Vista, 2) There really hasn't been that many user issues with the software at all.  Vista issues have revolved around the X-Fi and Audigy drivers themselves and their usage within Vista, not with any of their other software, nor with OpenAL.

It wasn't until reading through the information posted on the ALchemy sub-site that I've seen that it's been changed, and I intend to correct those terms in the XSS post #1 this weekend to reflect that.  

<edit> and I'll at least offer you a "thank you" for that post - no hard feelings.



> Direct insults? I didn't use the word "fanboy" like so many kids do these days. Fanatic is not an insult.
> 
> I never said that my knowledge was superior to anyone. I'm just using my references. Go yell at Creative Labs or OpenAL if you don't want to hear the truth.
> 
> If you really wanted to do something about the lack of support for Creative products then why not suggest alternatives?



I was being sarcastic, anyhow.  TBH, though, be careful about using the word fanatic, as that can easily be taken similar to being called a fanboi.

As far s trying to discuss anything with Creative, that's a no-go.  Been there, done that.  They don't even acknowledge your email when they respond.  Creative's forums are a joke unto themselves, and are a breeding ground of Creative bashers.  Asides from having to deal with people spamming a new thread, the forum administrators don't respond 95% of the time, either.

Suggest alternatives for Creative's lack of tech support?!  Where else on the net are there alternative's to their tech support in regards to WIN XP or Vista?  I can only think of MSN's forums, aside from the XSS here, and Creative's forums.  Asides, you'll find I've covered many of the most common issues, and I have more that I need to add to the thread as well - but otherwise, there really isn't much else in the way of support for Creative's products.

If you mean suggest alternatives to Creative's hardware, I do that as well - that is really based on what another user claims they want out of their card, and what they need or intend to use it for.  I have no qualms, though, recommending a competitors card if it would suit another user, and if they were willing to pay for the hardware; as well as I have no qualms with steering some users away from certain Creative hardware all together.


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## 2112 (May 9, 2008)

Specsaver said:


> CMSS 3D  is great for having good positional audio in games when using headphones, sure you can mess up any option so that it is unbearable, but if set up properly CMSS-3D does a great job.
> 
> Oh you bumped 3 month old thread?




OMG I really did that eheh. CMSS seems to work so-so with stereo headset, but with 5.1 or better I don't recommend it. At least here instead of helping positioning, it fucked it up. 

People it's not a discussion about EAX/OpenAL.
But if you want go on eheh...


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## bim27142 (May 10, 2008)

creative hardware is good but their driver support has always been crappy... especially if you use vista and with an older creative cards (the great audigy series)... audigy vista drivers are terrible (if not worst)... i am now just using the on-board realtek alc850 chip on my vista machine, sounds better...

it didn't help using the unofficial driver package (by daniel k).... still it sounded horrible...


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## imperialreign (May 10, 2008)

bim27142 said:


> creative hardware is good but their driver support has always been crappy... especially if you use vista and with an older creative cards (the great audigy series)... audigy vista drivers are terrible (if not worst)... i am now just using the on-board realtek alc850 chip on my vista machine, sounds better...
> 
> it didn't help using the unofficial driver package (by daniel k).... still it sounded horrible...




I completely agree with you on Creative's support - since the Live! series, it's slowly gone downhill into what we have today . . .

. . . and the whole issue revolving around the Daniel_k drivers doesn't help their image at all, and only further cemented many users impressions of Creative Labs.  TBH, I find that really disapointing, looking at how I remember them being through the 90s.  I get the impression not many users who frequent Creative's forums have been around the tech industry that long, and have never experienced Creative as a great, customer friendly company.


A thought on your other statement about the onboard sounding better: if the drivers were somehow causing poor audio quality, that reasonable - but the components on the PCB (especially the capacitors) will degrade over time, especially if the card has been used heavily, and that can lead to poor audio quality as well.


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## btarunr (May 10, 2008)

bim27142 said:


> it didn't help using the unofficial driver package (by daniel k).... still it sounded horrible...




Click on 'default' in consoles of all three modes, Run sndvol32.exe,  push the _wave_ to 100%, make sure keep both the console and sndvol32 windows open, make sure that when the 'rotary knob' volume in the console is at 50, the volume slider in sndvol32 is at half as well, if it isn't, turn the rotary knob to max, the slider will go max as well, at this point, turn the rotary knob to 50% , set your preferences with CMSS-3D, Crystalizer, EQ, etc.


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## theonetruewill (May 10, 2008)

exodusprime1337 said:


> so you'd say if i had a chance the audigy se card might be better? i think i have one of the 7.1 versions of those?? anybody got one and like it??



Just got myself an Audigy SE to replace the realtek onboard. I did notice a difference, mp3's especially sound crisper, while there's a whole lot less noise. The latter is a real boon as the shoddy onboard signal to noise ratio just couln't cut it when playing a loud volumes or funnily enough when using a microphone. For the cost - I;m liking this card.


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## AssimilatorX (May 10, 2008)

*Onboard Realtak or X-FI Notebook / X-MOD*

Hello all!
I'm new here but may could help for some one particularry, because i got X-MOD USB audio and X-FI Extreme Audio Notebook too.
First of all they not really gamer products but sounds carrying what the name say "CREATIVE" The X-MOD is just the name, inside is an Texas Instruments DSP Processor with creative bios not need any driver at all... 
The X-FI Extreme Audio Notebook is got a real creative IC inside called "CA0110-1BG" is a real xfi chip sorry for the bad pics...I dont think too many user that bold took appart a brand new creative card what just recently bought from creative...
I find out the X-FI notebook is possible to link back to the laptop speakers,but after yr lappi will use 2 soundcard at time ohwell:
I have got a little truble first little run around how to get it work.
I pluged in and vista sed #2 HD audio card i get 
Install the driver and sound is gone ???
Unplug and put back anything fine 
I culd say worth to buy is CREATIVE the name will speak its bahalf.
My Lappy is an MSI GX-700:
CPU: C2D X7800 2.6G,
HDD: 250GB WD Scorpio,
RAM: 4GB Apacher DDR2 667M,
GPU: Nv 8600M GT OC 512MB
ITM: 1 GB Robson, worth to stick in 
Sound:
creative X-MOD USB
Creative X-FI Extreme Audio Notebook
OS Vista x64 HomePrem.
Thanks.


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## jonmcc33 (May 11, 2008)

theonetruewill said:


> Just got myself an Audigy SE to replace the realtek onboard. I did notice a difference, mp3's especially sound crisper, while there's a whole lot less noise. The latter is a real boon as the shoddy onboard signal to noise ratio just couln't cut it when playing a loud volumes or funnily enough when using a microphone. For the cost - I;m liking this card.



Odd because I didn't notice any difference between the onboard audio of my Abit IP35-E (Realtek ALC888) and my Audigy2 ZS when listening to MP3s. For you to notice a difference between your onboard audio and a budget sound card from Creative that doesn't even use an Audigy chipset? Maybe the difference is all in your mind? 

About the only thing I heard that was different was lack of hiss as onboard audio suffers from interference. Nothing sounded "crisper" though.


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## theonetruewill (May 11, 2008)

jonmcc33 said:


> Odd because I didn't notice any difference between the onboard audio of my Abit IP35-E (Realtek ALC888) and my Audigy2 ZS when listening to MP3s. For you to notice a difference between your onboard audio and a budget sound card from Creative that doesn't even use an Audigy chipset? Maybe the difference is all in your mind?
> 
> About the only thing I heard that was different was lack of hiss as onboard audio suffers from interference. Nothing sounded "crisper" though.



It's not in my mind- I definetely noticed a difference. The signal to noise ratio is just better and I notice it. It maybe subtle but I am definetely impressed. The largest difference, however, is with FLAC's at really loud volumes- now thats quality. I'm tempted to spend more now, on a more expensive card


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## jonmcc33 (May 11, 2008)

theonetruewill said:


> It's not in my mind- I definetely noticed a difference. The signal to noise ratio is just better and I notice it. It maybe subtle but I am definetely impressed. The largest difference, however, is with FLAC's at really loud volumes- now thats quality. I'm tempted to spend more now, on a more expensive card



That will be better because you are not using onboard audio, a lot less noise in that department.


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## btarunr (May 11, 2008)

Once again, you're putting forward observations that aren't universal. Everyone thinks Audigy SE is an improvement over onboard audio, and they observed an improvement, just as you didn't. So there's nothing 'odd' with her observation.


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## Specsaver (May 11, 2008)

dunno about xtreme audio but the gamer card was defenitely an improvement over realtek onboard. Considering both use the same DAC it should be better, too. Realtek codecs have improved though and the latest ones are good enough if you dont pay attention to sound quality you wont notice a difference, possibly. But if you do, then onboard sound can't match accuracy of a dedicated sound card. X-Fi FTW


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## KainXS (May 11, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Once again, you're putting forward observations that aren't universal. Everyone thinks Audigy SE is an improvement over onboard audio, and they observed an improvement, just as you didn't. So there's nothing 'odd' with her observation.



I have the Realtek, audigy se, and an x-fi gamer and the audigy sounds a little better than the realtek but the gamer blows them both away


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## jonmcc33 (May 11, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Once again, you're putting forward observations that aren't universal. Everyone thinks Audigy SE is an improvement over onboard audio, and they observed an improvement, just as you didn't. So there's nothing 'odd' with her observation.



I'm pretty picky with my audio. I can identify the difference in sound quality between single driver satellites with a phase plug (Logitech Z-5500) and 2-way satellites with a tweeter and woofer (Klipsch ProMedia Ultra). 

I can actually hear the distortion from using onboard audio where most people may not and think I am imagining things. 

I went from Realtek onboard audio to an actual Audigy2 ZS sound card which uses a real Audigy chipset (EMU10K2) and quality Cirrus Logic CS4382 DACs. The only difference was no hiss/distortion that I could hear at higher volume levels from using the onboard Realtek HD audio. 

Please, stop assuming!


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## imperialreign (May 11, 2008)

my only thought, just like with an audio card, a users experience with onboard has a lot to do with their specific system, and the speakers they're using.  Onboard components are a lot more susceptible to EMI, and how one has their components arranged can play a lot to do with that as well.

TBH, though, I think there are more differences also in the actual chipset components of onboard system.  I don't think board manufacturers hold those components (or even the manufacturers of the chipsets) hold the components to the same level of quality that most audio card manufacturers do.  Component quality itself has a major impact on audio quality.

Using onboard with good speakers, and you'll more than likely hear a difference when upgrading to a PCI card.

And then there's always the factor of what the individual user is capable of hearing as well.  Not everyone is the same, so each user should be given the benefit of the doubt in regards to what differences they hear.


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## AssimilatorX (May 12, 2008)

Aye. May some users here remember that name "Aureal Semiconductor". and AU8810 , AU8820 "Diamond Monster Sound"  A3D.dll ??? .. But they cant keep up now part of the creative ...So jonmcc33 uu sad DR give uu placebo and say it'll work uu take it and is worked?? I think sound chips , OEM's , ears are suspectable different some happy wth onboard because cant ear it, others buy separate card for it.But is true onboard chips except nvidia APU all craply handle your cpu resources...i never experienced any problem wth creative cards top of that, my old Audigy PRO still working in my desktop all the parts around him new wth vista if you dont like creative just let as be.Personally 13years ago i use creative cards.
Regards,


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## Xazax (May 12, 2008)

If you dont like Creative, Try ASUS Xonar


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## theonetruewill (May 12, 2008)

Get an Audigy SE and mod it to the Xtreme audio. I've just done this after being told about it by KainXS. The Xtreme Audio is probably not worth it's retail price, but at the price of the Audigy SE it is


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