# Water Chiller - that's her modified for Subzero ;-)



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 12, 2017)

*EDIT: 22/01/2017
*





*Frost ;-)*







-------------------------------------------



*
ORIGINAL MESSAGE: 12/01/2017*


Quite pleased with myself tonight, lol.
err... Google...... 

Never broke anything; and it's working perfectly _(so far lol -- I hope the wire I used, was thick enough)_ 

It might just be me, my excitement; but I am _actually_ sure, it is cooling _more_ powerfully too.  (Usually by now, with GPU & CPU fully loaded + overclocked, falling water temp would have slowed) 


Thermostat set to 32c -- but  Chiller *still* running at temp of 25c _(for demonstration)_ 








After my insulation order arrives, (and I've set it all up) I'll update this video showing sub-zero temps,

*Front cover off*



*

front panel & thermometer disconnected





First Attempt (brown wire)


 


What a donut; I never cut wire long enough


*


*That's more like it  *_*(outside left, to outside right, blue wire) *this bypasses thermostat; chiller now runs as soon as power is switched on; regardless of water temperature_
*

 
*


*to regain Temperature Control & still have sub-zero
and/or
Run off external temp controller*
-If I wanted; I could wire a Ranco Temperature Controller up to a Surge Protector/Extension.
-Plug the Water Chiller in to the Surge Protector/Extension.

-The Ranco Temperature Controller applies power to the SP/Extension socket when the temperature reaches what you set it to.
-You can learn how to wire a Surge Protector/Extension to a Ranco Temperature Controller at you-tube 
*





So far:
1) Pick a subzero compatible coolant *_*(**complete*, 2  picked out; 1 for backup*) *_
*2) Modify Chiller electrics for subzero (complete)

3) Insulation (never done this before -- research starts now) any advice?







*
_~My Dream Machine~_
*

 *


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## cdawall (Jan 12, 2017)

Fix the tubing so it isn't uselessly long in the case and run the same style insulation you have in the cooler on the tubing. The board is a bit more work.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 12, 2017)

Thanks,.. this is.. I suppose.. maybe going to be the scariest part of all 

especially where the GPU is concerned  _(insulation)_


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## phanbuey (Jan 12, 2017)

These are great... benchies and temps!


Would it help the chiller if you ran the triple rad prior to it hitting? or would that just create additional condensation?


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## cdawall (Jan 12, 2017)

It would help to remove the radiator.


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## Toothless (Jan 12, 2017)

Way too much tubing. More tubing seems like it would have more area for heat to get back in before it hits the chip.


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## basco (Jan 12, 2017)

i really dont want to spoil your enthusiasm.
just my opinion
i think you should have let the chiller be chiller and get a single stage for benching thats the only way for really going below 0° except ln² or dry ice
but i see you like pushing your hardware.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 12, 2017)

Radiator isn't connected.  Just left it in the top of the case.. its not affecting anything. Almost forgot it was there.  The fans are still left spinning at their lowest setting to help create good airflow (they're on exhaust) and the front is on intake.  Not that any of this will matter much during a subzero run...

Evening,

Last step on my little mission, is figuring out the insulation requirements for condensation.

After a bit of research, I placed orders tonight for all this:



*Armaflex *9mm thick - 4 metres to fit *tubing* 13mm OD (more than I need but it was cheap) £10 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282048228...49&var=580995397595&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


*Armaflex* 9mm thick- *Flat Sheet* 2m x 0.5m self adhesive (_for water tank, reservoir, tops of blocks & anything else I think of)_ £20 https://www.pipelagging.com/product...ulation-Sheet-Self-Adhesive-0.5m-wide-2m-Long


*Duct Tape* - self explanatory (this is also waterproof) £4


*Dielectric Grease* - 3x 5g tubes (not decided exactly *where* this will all be appropriate yet, but I only paid £5 for three tubes on Ebay ) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380370452070


*Total = £40* (after delivery costs about £55 due to all from different suppliers)

Can anyone think of anything I've missed?

Thanks 


Nick Peyton


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

Art eraser you said you have some is it the gray one?

You can knead it and it should get softer or also stretch it out or folded over and over just to make it softer to work with


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 14, 2017)

DOM said:


> Art eraser you said you have some is it the gray one?
> 
> You can knead it and it should get softer or also stretch it out or folded over and over just to make it softer to work with



I was scared to bump this.

Thank you, for following this up, after the other thread was closed.

I've found this on Ebay:
"Kneaded putty rubber which can be moulded and shaped by hand. Ideal for picking out highlights and erasing pencil, chalk or charcoal.
Approximate eraser dimensions: 48mm x 37mm"
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Koh-I-Noo...224323?hash=item360e2f71c3:g:mN4AAOSwB09YRvYS

Perfect, thank you.  I've ordered 7.




------------------------

On a similar note;


Dielectric Grease - anyone have an opinion on this? I've read conflicting information....

Is it easy to remove without corroding your equipment in the removal process?


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

phanbuey said:


> or would that just create additional condensation?



It won't create condensation.



cdawall said:


> It would help to remove the radiator.



As you can see i kept the Radiator.



 

The reason i kept the Radiator.

Keeping the radiator it's something positive in winter months, i have a 280mm Rad inside the case with 2 fans attached to it, the water that flows into the radiator makes the Rad very cold + 2 fans pushing air inside the Machine through the Rad at 1200rpm helps to keep temps inside the Machine at least 1c less than the room's temperature.

Right now the room's temperature is 17c and inside the Machine is 16.1c


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

You lose efficiency from the chiller when you leave the radiator in the loop. If the goal is the best water temps it needs to go.


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> ------------------------
> 
> On a similar note;
> 
> ...



Only place I use dielectric grease is in the socket. Yes, you can clean it out without damage.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> You lose efficiency from the chiller when you leave the radiator in the loop



Give me a good reason.

If you're looking for -c maybe it could be but for what i need it i don't think so.


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Give me a good reason.
> 
> If you're looking for -c maybe it could be but for what i need it i don't think so.



It's not a thought thing if you run chilled water through a radiator with higher temperature air pushed through it you literally heat the water.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> you literally heat the water.



How am i heating the water?


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> How am i heating the water?



If the air temperature is above the water temperature then using the radiator will heat the water.

Something about physics.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 14, 2017)

You're chiller will be working harder IF you're running the water temperature below your ambient.. If you're running it anywhere above ambient -- you're probably helping the Chiller... it all depends on ambient. I know you don't have a heater in your room 

Its entirely up to you, though, how you want to run it.. it depends on what suits your needs the most   The quick connect/disconnect was a very good idea.

Some people during gaming may have a water temp that will equalise at between 28-32c.  If you only plan on running at 18c (for peace of mind that you're a still 5-10c cooler than an extra radiator could ever, have managed) then I don't see a problem with that 

You probably paid the cost of 2 radiators for the "guaranteed" 18c(?) which you will always be able to match, regardless of day-to-day differences in ambient/weather.  You'd never have this level of consistency simply buying more radiators.. but with the Chiller.. you do 

So again it all depends what your goal is, if you're happy that's the main thing 

You still, of course.. have the extra power to go even lower if you are feeling more adventurous one day... again.. if you'd just upgraded your radiators... you'd of had to roll your rig outside to get _another_ 10c.  So again, the Chiller still wins.. in my eyes


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> If the air temperature is above the water temperature then using the radiator will heat the water.



It depends how you set the loop, if i would have the Rad between Chiller and CPU i would agree with you but i have the loop set this way: Pump/reservoir ---->Rad---->Chiller---->CPU
the last component in the loop is the Rad because in that way the water that goes from the Rad to the Chiller before it goes to the CPU it has been already cooled.


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> It depends how you set the loop, if i would have the Rad between Chiller and CPU i would agree with you but i have the loop set this way: Pump/reservoir ---->Rad---->Chiller---->CPU
> the last component in the loop is the Rad because in that way the water that goes from the Rad to the Chiller before it goes to the CPU it has been already cooled.


Doesn't matter. The order affects nothing. Fact is, that rad pumping ambient air into your chilled loop is heating it up slightly, and giving you a very large condensation target.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> Fact is, that rad pumping ambient air into your chilled loop is heating it up slightly,



There is no way that it will heat the water because the ambient air is cooler than the Chiller's water temp.



Nicholas Peyton said:


> You're chiller will be working harder IF you're running the water temperature below your ambient..



The water temp it is not running  below ambient.



Nicholas Peyton said:


> You'd never have this level of consistency simply buying more radiators.. but with the Chiller.. you do



I know that very well



Nicholas Peyton said:


> If you only plan on running at 18c



I will running it depending the Machine's needs, could be lower than 18c or maybe higher.


*Ambient temperature*






*Water temperature
*




*Temp inside Machine
*


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> There is no way that it will heat the water because the ambient air is cooler than the Chiller's water temp.


In your case, I concede. Normal people's ambient is usually between 20-23c. I had no idea that you live in a morgue.


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

Why is this even going on in the op thread?

And 4.5 oc with a chiller Knoxx?


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> In your case, I concede. Normal people's ambient is usually between 20-23c. I had no idea that you live in a chiller.



I don't use a Heater in the room where i have my Machines, that is why i have low ambient temps.



Mr.Scott said:


> Normal people's ambient is usually between 20-23c



Maybe i am not normal, i hate Heaters, it doesn't matter how cold it is i don't use the heater.

A big heater.

I just use it to decorate the room



 




DOM said:


> And 4.5 oc with a chiller Knoxx?



4.6GHz

The CPU it is not mine, that's why i don't OC higher.


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

What a waste I run 4.6 on air lol


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 14, 2017)

DOM said:


> What a waste I run 4.6 on air lol



5.0 on Air. And I'm running a "hotter, inefficient chip".


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

DOM said:


> What a waste I run 4.6 on air lol



But we don't have the same temps

And it looks like you don't pay attention at what i said before: *The CPU it is not mine*

Did you get it know?


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> In your case, I concede. Normal people's ambient is usually between 20-23c. I had no idea that you live in a morgue.



I would be curious the accuracy of the temp sensors all around +/-10% would mean all temps are more or less equal and its just more restriction in the loop.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> I would be curious the accuracy of the temp sensors all around +/-10% would mean all temps are more or less equal and its just more restriction in the loop.



You just tell me how the temps should be?


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> You just tell me how the temps should be?



Colder. 
You're burning an extra 400+watts of power running that chiller to give you roughly the same results as your regular water loop in your cold ambient.
There is no point. Use it or lose it.


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> Colder.
> You're burning an extra 400+watts of power running that chiller to give you roughly the same results as your regular water loop in your cold ambient.
> There is no point.






Knoxx29 said:


> You just tell me how the temps should be?



Quoted Mr.Scott for you make sure you read the post a couple of times so it sinks in.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> Colder.



You tell me how can get it colder?

Edit: which temps should be colder, Chiller temps, Ambient temps?


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

There's no point in making anything colder because you aren't using what you have to the fullest potential now. 4.6 you can do on air.
Yes, I understand it's not your CPU.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> Yes, I understand it's not your CPU



Thanks for your understanding 



Mr.Scott said:


> There's no point in making anything colder because you aren't using what you have to the fullest potential now.



Exactly, that's what i wanted to hear, *there is not point in making anything colder,* when i get my CPU then things are going to be different, btw, you never asked me at what temp i have the Chiller setup.


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

There is no point in having the chiller.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> There is no point in having the chiller.



Why not?


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Why not?



400w of additional power needed to maintain temps on something that could be watercooled to the same temperature in less space.


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

Not your cpu doesn't mean you can't play with it lol

Colder means less volts higher oc

And just looked at your rig $500 MBA $600 card but can't afford a cpu 

There's always rma lol


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

DOM said:


> Not your cpu doesn't mean you can't play with it lol
> 
> Colder means less volts higher oc
> 
> ...



Colder typically means less voltage per clock, but I have some that didn't clock higher in anyway.


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> Colder typically means less voltage per clock, but I have some that didn't clock higher in anyway.


Yeah but what's the coldest you used?chiller, Dice, ln2?


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## cdawall (Jan 14, 2017)

DOM said:


> Yeah but what's the coldest you used?chiller, Dice, ln2?



I have done tons of DICE and used someone else's multistage (once lol). There is a scaling point and some chips are just junk.

While we are off topic though where in TX are you?


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

cdawall said:


> 400w of additional power needed to maintain temps on something that could be watercooled to the same temperature in less space.



I dont know from where you got those number but are way wrong.

1.3W idle and 180W full load, how many times it has gone full load since i have it? never



DOM said:


> And just looked at your right 500 MBA 600 card but can't afford a cpu



Right, allow me to correct you, 850€ Card

It is too easy to judge someone you don't know.

The CPU is mine, i say it is not mine because i have promised to @peche that when the new CPU that i have ordered arrive i send the 6700K to him, it is a present.

You said i cant afford a CPU, well my 6700K costed 367€ and i am giving it for free to a friend of mine, do you still think i cant afford it?


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

Yeah that's also true but it's like me running my single stage just to get  .6ghz more lol

Might just hook it up but shit don't have time don't go home every day like I use to in Oklahoma right now Cuz a "storm" was coming but getting paid to do nothing isn't to bad lol



Knoxx29 said:


> I dont know from where you got those number but are way wrong.
> 
> 1.3W idle and 180W full load, how many times it has gone full load since i have it? never
> 
> ...


Not judging anyone don't see your point of arguing over something you don't use to its full extent lol 

And 850€ when it was just released?  There 600 usd now so don't see the point of spending that much if you spend most of your time talking on here push the cpu and card and post some runs lol


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

@DOM 

Just in case you have any doubts.


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## DOM (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> @DOM
> 
> Just in case you have any doubts.
> 
> View attachment 83071


Read what it says under motherboard? 

Bro I don't have doubts I had money at one time to buy all that stuff but decided to try for a boy and ended up with 5 girl's lol I wouldn't trade them for anything

But also left the hwbot.org game Cuz there's no air gas to get ln2


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

DOM said:


> And 850€ when it was just released?



Exactly, 3 days after it was released.



DOM said:


> There 600 usd now



In Germany cost a little bit more.





DOM said:


> don't see your point of arguing over something you don't use to its full extent lol



We are not arguing, we are sharing our points of view 



DOM said:


> push the cpu



Air cooled

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/intel-core-i7-owners-club.212933/page-
14#post-3576342
http://valid.x86.fr/qx81tn

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/intel-core-i7-owners-club.212933/page-15#post-3576352
http://valid.x86.fr/nqjy3x



DOM said:


> and card



The GPU it is not Watercooled







DOM said:


> I wouldn't trade them for anything



Me neither


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

I know who you are and your credentials Dom. 



Knoxx29 said:


> I dont know from where you got those number but are way wrong.
> 
> 1.3W idle and 180W full load, how many times it has gone full load since i have it? never



I took that figure off of one of Nick Peyton's threads. He had his on a kill-o-watt meter at a little over 400 watts. If you're running the same chiller, there is no reason that yours wouldn't use the same.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> I took that figure off of one of Nick Peyton's threads. He had his on a kill-o-watt meter at a little over 400 watts. If you're running the same chiller, there is no reason that yours wouldn't use the same.




@Nicholas Peyton Chiller






*My Chiller*













cdawall said:


> 400w of additional power needed to maintain temps on something that could be watercooled to the same temperature in less space.



What did you say?

Repeat it because I did not hear you well


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## dorsetknob (Jan 14, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> You tell me how can get it colder?



Take it outside and put it in unheated wooden shed  " i hear Central Europe is having  an Alaska winter style Weather Event "
All>>> " you need is Mucklucks Fur Coat and Dead racoon hat and fur mittens ""
Hope this helps


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

So Lads, it was a pleasure to chat with you but now it is time to play *Titanfall 2 online mode*

If you have a question or for  additional critics send me a PM, i will answer you as soon as i have a cigarette break.

Love you all, C'ya


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

K. Smaller unit. My bad.
Still 200 unnecessary watts though.


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## FireFox (Jan 14, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> Still 200 unnecessary watts though.


 Where do you see 200?


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 14, 2017)

It's half the capacity of the 500 model that we know draws 400 watts. Hence, roughly 200 watts. Doesn't matter what it is anyway. It's not necessary to run a cooler that draws almost the same wattage as the entire rest of the system, when for the overclock involved and your ambient conditions, you could get the same result with a cheap air cooler and 1 fan.

It's fine though, enjoy yourself. It still has novelty value.


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## FireFox (Jan 15, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> It's half the capacity of the 500 model that we know draws 400 watts. Hence, roughly 200 watts. Doesn't matter what it is anyway. It's not necessary to run a cooler that draws almost the same wattage as the entire rest of the system, when for the overclock involved and your ambient conditions, you could get the same result with a cheap air cooler and 1 fan.
> 
> It's fine though, enjoy yourself. It still has novelty value.



No offence but if you compare this temperatures with Air cooled temperatures you are a fool.






I had this Machine running Air cooled with the same ambient temperature that i have right now and testing it with OCCT the CPU temps were 70c/75c and while playing 46c/49c.

Note: since i have the Chiller it has never used more than 2.0W


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 15, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> No offence but if you compare this temperatures with Air cooled temperatures you are a fool.
> 
> View attachment 83081
> 
> ...



You better OC that CPU at least 400MHz more with that cooler.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 15, 2017)

Draws closer to 300-325w

But it ONLY switches on when it needs to.  It's barely runs at all *unless* with CPU & GPU intensive tasks.






Going to do this to *control whether thermostat is bypassed or not* (getting sick of having to do it manually all the time when I'm not pushing temperature down) and its a cheaper/simpler method than an external temp controller method, that I mentioned in the opening post on this thread.





I'll post new pictures up showing how I implement this after its done.


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## FireFox (Jan 15, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> You better OC that CPU at least 400MHz more with that cooler.



Sorry to disappoint you but it won't happen, not with this CPU, want to see big numbers? You have to wait.



Nicholas Peyton said:


> But it ONLY switches on when it needs to. It's barely runs at all *unless* with CPU & GPU intensive tasks.



Since i have mine it hasn't switched on even when i play, it has to go to 19c before it starts to work but until now max temp is 18.1c


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 15, 2017)

My insulation order:

Condensation protection
*
£55


*


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## FireFox (Jan 15, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> My insulation order:
> 
> For condensation protection
> 
> ...








One day when Hardware will be waterproof i will go Subzero, means while i stay at 18c


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 15, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> View attachment 83097
> 
> One day when Hardware will be waterproof i will go Subzero, means while i stay at 18c


I have a cunning plan I'll share when it's built Fishtank pc next lol.


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## FireFox (Jan 15, 2017)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> I have a cunning plan I'll share when it's built Fishtank pc next lol.



I cant wait to see that


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 15, 2017)

i thought about doing that, quite strongly.. but when I thought about what would happen if the tank ever burst I chickened out..

would of been nice though; would of solved condensation problem forever; apart from maybe a little condensation on the tubes not under the oil, this water would drip down the tubes which would have to of been periodically removed from the top of the oil.

EVGA also don't honour warranties for equipment dunked in mineral oil.#
Not because the oil does any harm, but because they can't fix it up and ship it off to another customer as refurbished.  So they changed their policy.


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 15, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but it won't happen, not with this CPU, want to see big numbers? You have to wait.
> 
> 
> 
> Since i have mine it hasn't switched on even when i play, it has to go to 19c before it starts to work but until now max temp is 18.1c



so whats wrong with that chip?


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## dorsetknob (Jan 15, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> so whats wrong with that chip?



 Man with elephant's foreskin leather  wallet finds it to heavy to open to buy one  so borrows friends CPU


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## FireFox (Jan 16, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> so whats wrong with that chip?





dorsetknob said:


> Man with elephant's foreskin leather  wallet finds it to heavy to open to buy one  so borrows friends CPU



Read post #42

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...dified-for-subzero.229527/page-2#post-3586184


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 16, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Read post #42
> 
> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...dified-for-subzero.229527/page-2#post-3586184



To answer your reply. Yes I did knox lol


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## FireFox (Jan 16, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> To answer your reply. Yes I did knox lol



I just wanted to be sure


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## peche (Jan 16, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> *My insulation order:
> 
> For condensation protection
> 
> ...


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 16, 2017)

Anyone know if testing has ever been done; to determine the impact of tubing size. on pressure and flow?

For example; pressure & flow rate difference between 10mm & 13mm ID tubing?

I know this wouldn't "normally" make a lot of difference to temps, but _could_ it make a notable difference when running a higher viscosity coolant?


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 16, 2017)

It makes no discernible difference.


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## dorsetknob (Jan 17, 2017)

Example for the sake of it
Pump A thru 10mm tubeing 30lts per hour
Same pump thru 13mm tubing 30.5 ltr per hour

or you can Argue same flow on each but Smaller bore may/will have higher pressure and therefore pump has to work slightly harder

Tangareen's or Satsuma's   there is a Difference but it wont Really matter ( they are both small oranges ....)

If your that Bothered fit A Flow meter and monitor it yourself
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331796756941?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 18, 2017)

Evening lads,

Got my loop apart tonight to perform insulation prep for my subzero quest.

Turned my EK pump/reservoir combo upside down and noticed _(to my surprise_) that its rated at a maximum of 24 volts.

Its the:
"EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 PWM (incl. pump)"
Max L/hr: 1500
Max Head: 3.9m

*See pic*:




Anyone know if running it at this higher voltage would increase its performance?

I always thought these were rated at 12v as standard, so still surprised.

It begged this question; so i had to ask 

Ty.

Nick Peyton


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 18, 2017)

Looks to be pulse width modulated so it's speeds likely set


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## FireFox (Jan 18, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> Evening lads,
> 
> Got my loop apart tonight to perform insulation prep for my subzero quest.
> 
> ...



You should pay a little more attention to what you buy mine is the same as your, the only difference is that i knew that it was rated 8-24V, your max is 30W mine 37W


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## Arrakis9 (Jan 18, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> Evening lads,
> 
> Got my loop apart tonight to perform insulation prep for my subzero quest.
> 
> ...



Yes you can run it up to 24v with a max of 0.80 amps at its max voltage. it will increase your flow rate substantially but if your only running a single rad and a single block you won't need all of that flow. Maybe if you were running that pump in conjunction with 3 or 4 rads were you have substantial pressure drop it would make sense to bump the voltage / flow rate. In other words yes it can run at a higher voltage/flow, do _you _need it? Answer is probably no.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 18, 2017)

Arrakis+9 said:


> yes it can run at a higher voltage/flow, do _you _need it? Answer is probably no.



Maybe he needs it because he has a Chiller with 6L/7L coolant that goes from the Machine to the Chiller and that's a lot of coolant.

Note: my Chiller has 5L coolant and the pump is running at full speed ( 4998Rpm )


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 18, 2017)

I have a much thicker coolant too. About 25% of the mix will be glycol product & 75% distilled.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 18, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> I have a much thicker coolant too. About 25% of the mix will be glycol product & 75% distilled.



That's why stronger the pump and better it's.


----------



## FR@NK (Jan 18, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> i thought about doing that, quite strongly.. but when I thought about what would happen if the tank ever burst I chickened out..
> 
> would of been nice though; would of solved condensation problem forever; apart from maybe a little condensation on the tubes not under the oil, this water would drip down the tubes which would have to of been periodically removed from the top of the oil.
> 
> ...



You dont use mineral oil. There is a new synthetic fluid from 3M that doesnt leave any residue on the hardware. Its designed for immersion cooling large data centers.

My tank is almost done:







Still need to get it in a case and make a chiller for the fluid.


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 18, 2017)

FR@NK said:


> You dont use mineral oil. There is a new synthetic fluid from 3M that doesnt leave any residue on the hardware. Its designed for immersion cooling large data centers.
> 
> My tank is almost done:
> 
> ...



Wow. Nice.

I will look this up once my PC is running again.

Im in thr painsteaking process (as we speak) of insulating my GPU for a full cover block & sub-zero



 



Arrakis+9 said:


> Yes you can run it up to 24v with a max of 0.80 amps at its max voltage. it will increase your flow rate substantially but if your only running a single rad and a single block you won't need all of that flow. Maybe if you were running that pump in conjunction with 3 or 4 rads were you have substantial pressure drop it would make sense to bump the voltage / flow rate. In other words yes it can run at a higher voltage/flow, do _you _need it? Answer is probably no.



Also regarding *running my pump at 24v*. I will have a look on ebay and see if i can find a cheap '12v to 24v step up' or something i can plug a molex into.

Never thought id ever be able to "overclock" my pump, lol


----------



## Arrakis9 (Jan 19, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Maybe he needs it because he has a Chiller with 6L/7L coolant that goes from the Machine to the Chiller and that's a lot of coolant.
> 
> Note: my Chiller has 5L coolant and the pump is running at full speed ( 4998Rpm )



the amount of coolant in the loop is not going to make a bit of difference how well the pump preforms or how cold your loop will get, its a matter of how many pressure dropping components your using and/or the amount of vertical pressure your putting on your pump. those pumps you guys are using are usually rated to about 8/10 feet of head pressure which is seriously a lot of pressure for a 12v pump. flow rate is not everything when it comes to liquid cooling of any caliber. you have to remember that the more flow rate you put in a loop the less time the coolant also has to dissipate heat in the exchanger as well. you need to find balance in your loop, not everything is the same for every loop.

i'd recommend looking up some articles @skinneelabs or @martinsliquidlab if your truly interested in getting your setup done correctly. 



Nicholas Peyton said:


> I have a much thicker coolant too. About 25% of the mix will be glycol product & 75% distilled.



you can run a 50/50 mix just fine. that isn't considered very viscous, maybe if it was something like mineral oil i'd consider bumping the voltage.

if you really are dead set on bumping the voltage on your pump use one of these
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KTJE3L4/?tag=tec06d-20

people normally use those for peltier setups and from what I've read they're reliable, you just need to setup a relay to use one which should be easy to find a guide online to do that with that exact unit.


----------



## cdawall (Jan 19, 2017)

I ran 75/25 of Dexcool for years in my cold water build. I had a d4/d5 combo and never touched the voltage. Even had to bump the variable pump down.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 19, 2017)

Today we had -7c

My Room temperature was 13.7c






Temperatures inside the Machine.


----------



## m1dg3t (Jan 19, 2017)

Didn't read the thread, too lazy  Have any of these old toads suggested conformal coating spray or 'dragon skin' silicone?


----------



## FireFox (Jan 19, 2017)

m1dg3t said:


> Didn't read the thread, too lazy  Have any of these old toads suggested conformal coating spray or 'dragon skin' silicone?



Are you talking to me?


----------



## m1dg3t (Jan 19, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Are you talking to me?



You & Nick I guess, or anyone else interested in options for protection when going sub ambient/zero


----------



## FireFox (Jan 19, 2017)

m1dg3t said:


> You & Nick I guess, or anyone else interested in options for protection when going sub ambient/zero



@Nicholas Peyton would be interested.

I don't want to have anything to do with Subzero temps


----------



## m1dg3t (Jan 19, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> @Nicholas Peyton would be interested.
> 
> I don't want to have anything to do with Subzero temps



Wait till your ambient increases and you start getting condensation inside your rig then I guess? Long as you keep your PC temps below ambient, or within 1c or 2c - depending on RH of course, you'll be Ok


----------



## cdawall (Jan 19, 2017)

m1dg3t said:


> Wait till your ambient increases and you start getting condensation inside your rig then I guess? Long as you keep your PC temps below ambient, or within 1c or 2c - depending on RH of course, you'll be Ok



They just have to match dew point.


----------



## m1dg3t (Jan 19, 2017)

cdawall said:


> They just have to match dew point.



Isn't that what I said, or are we talking different words here? What is it with people and semantics? LoLoLoL


----------



## cdawall (Jan 19, 2017)

m1dg3t said:


> Isn't that what I said, or are we talking different words here? What is it with people and semantics? LoLoLoL



Man you had letters and numbers. I am simple word man.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 19, 2017)

cdawall said:


> They just have to match dew point.



Exactly.



m1dg3t said:


> Long as you keep your PC temps below ambient, or within 1c or 2c - depending on RH of course, you'll be Ok



My temp are at least 10c above the dew point.


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 19, 2017)

This is taking AGES lol. (Insulation work) and other prep.
So far so good though!
I'm using my mobile phone to get onto techpoweup, here.

I'll post pics later, after she's up & running.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 19, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> This is taking AGES lol. (Insulation work) and other prep.



That's not a job you do in 5 minutes, it takes time and patience


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 19, 2017)

*GPU Insulation*
Thermal pads will be on memory and VRM



Full-Block on top of card.

*EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 CLASSIFIED
*






*is 'frost' conductive?*

*at least it can't 'drip' *


----------



## DOM (Jan 22, 2017)

Frost is just frosted confiscation so i would think yes so i would cover them areas with arlmafluex


----------



## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> View attachment 83304
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And finally you got Subzero temperatures 

What about the CPU, and what happens with the frost when temperatures goes back to normal?


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 22, 2017)

Frost just seems to dissipate (sometimes it turns into a bit of moisture, which I just wipe away)

Only seeing it at the 'compression fittings' really (I could easily add a bit more Armaflex  -- but I kind of like it; none of the fittings are positioned to allow dribble onto important areas).

oh & I finally broke through 
*2303 MHZ* on GTX 1080 _(*stock* boost on a Nvidia Founders Edition 1080 is 1733 MHZ)_





Not entirely stable but it was a quick dirty run, at stock voltages and only -4 water temp

I need to revisit the back of the PCB next, before I push lower.

P.S. not tried anything with the CPU yet.  Not had time.  I will tomorrow


----------



## cdawall (Jan 22, 2017)

I would say do a 3dmark run, but I feel like the cpu would disappoint...


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 22, 2017)

cdawall said:


> I would say do a 3dmark run, but I feel like the cpu would disappoint...



it would 

I'm delighted I got this far.

It begun to get soo cold moisture begun to appear on the *BACK* of the PCB. _And not just where the block touches on the front via pads._

My memory temps were even sitting at 0c, idling lol.
I never insulated the back of the GPU because the block is on the front. (and I'm still a n00b to this; its my first ever sub-zero.  I make no claims to be an expert -- farrr from it).

Anyway it cooled the *entire* PCB, _so well,_ the entire card was beginning to go into the minus, on the I/O side.
VRM side was still about 5-10c.

VRM is idling far too high though (compared to water temp) a lot higher than before I insulated.  I think too much liquid electrical tape got down there underneath the pads OR I need to re-seat with an extra 0.5mm on the VRM to get better compression again.

I'm going to need to think about that lol.

Its also making me think again.. about that "bag" idea the other day. (obviously not for prolonged use)....?

God knows, but I'm impressed by the results.. and that was only between -4c & -8c

Chiller *was* *still* dropping but *REALLY beginning to slow.*
For some reason the chillers draw on power seems to drop from 325w-350w to eventually only 225w (and turning on/off doesn't reset).. _no idea why because that's a 1/3rd performance loss._  :-(

If I return to normal ambient temps it's fine.

_*Next Steps:?*_
*1. Have some fun with CPU next.
2.* re-seat to fix VRM temps on *GPU*..
*2b*. revisit insulation especially on BACK of GPU.
*3. *Research ----> Either upgrade Chiller to a full 1 HP unit, or start researching how to create a "sealed" chillbox to house the PC to prevent air circulation + humidity. (or both).


P.S.
-A big thank you to everyone at tech-power up who has leant there advice and expertise, motivation and inspiration 
-Especially Knoxx; having someone to bounce off/talk to about this has been great 






*More pics:*

*Spraying £800 GPU *

it peels off just like tape by the way 
*



*

*
Insulating CPU









Picture of my Sub-Zero setup



 


Slab of Armaflex on bottom of block



 *


----------



## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> Especially Knoxx; having someone to bounce off/talk to about this has been great



What i haven't done in many years of Water cooling building you did it in a few months? And that's something admirable and impressive, well done @Nicholas Peyton


----------



## silkstone (Jan 22, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> Frost just seems to dissipate (sometimes it turns into a bit of moisture, which I just wipe away)
> 
> Only seeing it at the 'compression fittings' really (I could easily add a bit more Armaflex  -- but I kind of like it; none of the fittings are positioned to allow dribble onto important areas).
> 
> ...



Very nice.

If I were you, I'd still work on getting rid of the frost. Water has a nasty habit of finding its way everywhere (it's an inherent property).


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 22, 2017)

*


silkstone said:



			Very nice.

If I were you, I'd still work on getting rid of the frost. Water has a nasty habit of finding its way everywhere (it's an inherent property).
		
Click to expand...


thanks 

yeah, true ;-)

Plenty Armaflex, left over, lol:*






FAO: _I never bought the Armaflex from Aqua-Tuning, (that box is just laying there)-- its terribly expensive from Aqua-tuning.. I ordered 0.5m x 4m from a company called 'pipelagging'_




*I actually initially bought it to insulate the Chiller (to swing every last shred of performance out of her) lol: *_(it ended up being INVALUABLE to help insulating everything else including blocks - it's self adhesive)_



 




_Anyone know how I'd mod it further, to increase its 'cooling power' without spending £££££ ?
_
It draws up to 350w from wall but seems to calm down and only draws 225w after being on a while

Anyone know what the lowest possible temperature is for a fridge/freezer/water chiller that uses R134a gas as the refrigerant? (in theory)?

I can't seem to get lower than -8c water temp, (despite insulating the tank) *and *switching the PC off _*and*_ only running the pump.

The Chiller has a 1/2 HP compressor and a huge evaporator (and you can see from the pics above the tank is *MUCH* smaller than a regular freezer). It's rated at 790w cooling capacity.

A regular chest freezer probably only has a 1/6 HP (horse power) compressor (and a smaller evaporator & smaller condenser); so I don't understand why I can't get lower.

The flow-rate also seems to decrease considerably by about -4, but I can clearly see the fluid still moving around the system, (especially in my EK reservoir/pump combo).

I have enough coolant (glycol) mixed in to allow as low as -14c before freezing.

Trying to understand what is going on. As I said; even with the PC off (only running the pump) the water temp still won't go below -8c 

I can get that low with the PC powered on (and idling).  If I bench only the CPU or only the GPU the chiller also does a good job at holding -8c.... just can't get below it


----------



## Mr.Scott (Jan 23, 2017)

How warm is the compressor? Point a box fan at it.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 23, 2017)

Don't forget that your Chiller HC-500a and my Chiller HC-250a are both rated to operate to a minimum of 4c and you got it to run at -8, that's 12c difference.



Nicholas Peyton said:


> Anyone know what the lowest possible temperature is for a fridge/freezer/water chiller that uses R134a gas as the refrigerant? (in theory)?



A Chiller it's not a Freezer, Chiller is simply a smaller, weaker Refrigerator/fridge, a freezer is colder than a refrigerator/fridge,
so far as i know the R134a gas refrigerant can reach -26c what it means that shouldn't be the problem,




Nicholas Peyton said:


> I have a much thicker coolant too. About 25% of the mix will be glycol product & 75% distilled.



The glycol that you are using with the destilled water is it pure or mixed with something else? maybe the glycol with destilled water it's not enough and that's what is holding the temperature back, or maybe you need to use more glycol and less destilled water.

( This is only a hypothesis )



Maybe you need a bigger unit like the HC- 1000A or maybe the Chiller has reached it's limits?

I have found this:

Think this way: both the refrigerator and the freezer are working based on the same concept, but one is doing 4-8C and is called refrigerator; the other is doing -20C and is called a freezer..

You should read this:

https://rog.asus.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-34649.html


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks.

A refrigerator and a freezer work in the exact same way.  Same technology.  The only difference is the thermostat. (as far as I know).

You could turn a refrigerator into a freezer and vice versa simply by changing the thermostat out.

Last time I had the chiller to subzero the compressor was actually cold (and frost started to appear on the bottom of the compressor; but only at the bottom/front of it).

I'll double check tonight and make sure I have that right (about if the compressor is warm or not).

I read that rog.asus link.  Some guys are claiming to get down past -35c and Mayhems claims their coolants work down to -58c in "re-circulating chillers".  So it must be possible.

My Chiller is still a lot more powerful than even a 200L chest freezer. (which probably only has a 1/4 HP compressor).

*I've been thinking; about how the flow rate decreases when I get down quite low* (despite the fact the water hasn't actually frozen).... I wonder if the water at the bottom of the Chillers tank is becoming frozen (while the water at the top continues to cycle around my loop).

The mixture I have just now; only allows for -14c.  So its possible.... I might try adding some more coolant and seeing if that gets me a few more degrees.  If it does - I'll know what the issue is. I've got another 500mL here (which is enough to get to -20).  If water in the bottom is freezing first (with 6c between *still re-circulating water* and water getting frozen in the bottom of the tank) that should be enough to get to -14).


I'll let you know how I get on 



*Edit: (important)*
Been carrying on with research tonight and it looks like *"Frost" isn't conductive.*

*Pure* water isn't actually conductive.  Distilled water isn't even conductive.  But distilled water loses its purity as soon as it is combined with air as ions form in the water.  It is the free movement of ions in water that allows it to be conductive.

Since ice is frozen solid the ions aren't free, there for ICE is actually a very poor conductor. (as is frost).

This is a good knowledge to have, as usually only frost has been forming on my equipment.  It only gets wet when I allow the water temperature to rise again.

*On future runs, I plan to switch the computer off before allowing the frost to thaw*.


----------



## DR4G00N (Jan 24, 2017)

The coolant freezing would be a possibility. Though I think it might just be the glycol thickening as it gets cold and reducing the flow rate, mine does the same. 

You could also just be at the limit of what the compressor & condenser can do. My chiller has a 2HP rotary compressor w/ R22 gas and gets down to -24C (or around 40C below ambient).


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 24, 2017)

DR4G00N said:


> The coolant freezing would be a possibility. Though I think it might just be the glycol thickening as it gets cold and reducing the flow rate, mine does the same.
> 
> You could also just be at the limit of what the compressor & condenser can do. My chiller has a 2HP rotary compressor w/ R22 gas and gets down to -24C (or around 40C below ambient).



@DR4G00N What chiller do you have?

aye, I just read somewhere that in a system using R134a gas, the cooling efficiency takes a drop after -7.  I'm not a refrigeration engineer so I'm not sure why.  They were talking about the system "running in a vacuum" but I've no idea what that means really or the science behind it (or even if I was interpreting it correctly).

I aimed an extra case fan at the condenser (helping the fan already there).  Think Mr Scott might of been thinking back, years ago, last time he done it and meant, the condenser.

The compressor is *cold* (and the chiller isn't even blowing out warm air anymore.. its blowing out cold air).

I managed to get to -10c tonight, by down-clocking my CPU and undervolting it to 1.0v _and_ running both CPU & GPU in idle.

-I also insulated the rest of the fittings and any other metal bits, that were showing.

*-And* added an extra 500ml of glycol. (Meaning I should be able to get to about -28c).

*But still can't get past -10c.*  This seems to be the limit of what my Chiller can do.

Still don't understand how a 200L freezer, with a 1/5th HP compressor, manages to get to -22c.  When I can only get to -10, on a system with a 1/2 HP compressor, (a huge evaporator) _and_ a condenser that is aided by a fan!!

I think it must be due to insulation.  But there isn't anymore I can do insulation wise.. I even insulated the inside of the bloody chiller.

Quite disappointed; I could of saved about £40 on coolant if I knew I was only going to get to -9. 

I was aiming to get 2300 MHZ _(2302MHZ_) *stable* on my GTX 1080.  I got to fucking 2189MHZ.  lol.  Another 10c would of got me *stable* at 2300MHZ.

I can get a 30s run but it crashes everytime.

SO F******G CLOSE! argh!!


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 24, 2017)

FR@NK said:


> You dont use mineral oil. There is a new synthetic fluid from 3M that doesnt leave any residue on the hardware. Its designed for immersion cooling large data centers.
> 
> My tank is almost done:
> 
> ...



Flourinert. Damn that stuff is expensive. The DOD uses like 50 thousand gallons of it too haha.


----------



## basco (Jan 24, 2017)

i am still sanding with dont buy a bigger chiller.
if you are not satisfied now then go with a singlestage.
you need moaar cooling power-yeah

but hats off to what you have already done


----------



## DOM (Jan 24, 2017)

Your wrong on the freezer getting Colder then your chiller, do you think that frezzer can keep your rig that cold?

Back in the days i put my wcing rig in the ice box type frezzers and guess what happen the frost along the walls inside stared to melt 

So are you giving the card more volts?


----------



## FireFox (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> You could turn a refrigerator into a freezer and vice versa simply by changing the thermostat out.



It's not said that if you turn a fridge into a freezer or vice versa it will work, they may work in the exact way but the components/hardware or whatever it is are not built in the same way, i guess that the freezer's components in some way are built differently.


----------



## jaggerwild (Jan 24, 2017)

@nick
 Id be careful using plactic res while going sub zero, or any plastic for that matter....................................But what do I know


----------



## FireFox (Jan 24, 2017)

jaggerwild said:


> @nick
> Id be careful using plactic res while going sub zero, or any plastic for that matter....................................But what do I know



You quoted the wrong user ( @nick )

@Nicholas Peyton

As i told you before you have done an impressive job, now all what i can suggest you is to try a different Coolant? and as i have said before too maybe the Chiller has reached it's limit/capacity, one more thing, maybe you're not mixing the right amount of Glycol and destilled water.

Note: if i wouldn't have a 500€ motherboard and a 850€ Graphic Card i would try the Subzero temp.


----------



## Mr.Scott (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> *Edit: (important)*
> Been carrying on with research tonight and it looks like *"Frost" isn't conductive.*



LOL. If that were actually true you wouldn't be insulating your components.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 24, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> LOL. If that were actually true you wouldn't be insulating your components.



+1

Exactly.


----------



## DR4G00N (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> @DR4G00N What chiller do you have?



Mine was made from an old (and free) 5000BTU window air conditioner. Rechi 39R131D (R22) compressor with a 192 cubic inch condenser (16x12x1) and a 28cm 900RPM fan. The evaporator is around 100 to 120 ci and it chills ~10 to 15L of coolant down to -24C after a few hours.



Getting down to around -8c is not too bad for that honestly considering it was not designed with the intent to go below 0c at all let alone with a heat load placed on it. The fact that the condenser is not producing any noticeable heat basically means what you have is the best your going to get.


----------



## jaggerwild (Jan 24, 2017)

@Knoxx29 
 You'll do well to get a real Water Pump/rad/res/blocks, as they will out preform what ever that unit is that someone sold you.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 24, 2017)

DR4G00N said:


> Mine was made from an old (and free) 5000BTU window air conditioner. Rechi 39R131D (R22) compressor with a 192 cubic inch condenser (16x12x1) and a 28cm 900RPM fan. The evaporator is around 100 to 120 ci and it chills ~10 to 15L of coolant down to -24C after a few hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting down to around -8c is not too bad for that honestly considering it was not designed with the intent to go below 0c at all let alone with a heat load placed on it. The fact that the condenser is not producing any noticeable heat basically means what you have is the best your going to get.



Let's say that is the same thing i am telling him but with different words.



jaggerwild said:


> @Knoxx29
> You'll do well to get a real Water Pump/rad/res/blocks, as they will out preform what ever that unit is that someone sold you.





Why are you telling this?


----------



## DR4G00N (Jan 24, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Let's say that is the same thing i am telling him but with different words.



It doesn't hurt anything to have more than one opinion on the matter.


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 24, 2017)

Ice isnt conductive. But it doesnt turn to ice (frost) straight away.

There's a period (time lapse) before it turns to ice where the moisture could still do damage. Also not all areas are frosty. The VRM side of the car tends to accumulate moisture while the I/O side gets frosty.

So i still need to insulate.

Regarding not being able to get lower. (And "do i think a freezer could keep my components that cold" -- i see what you mean, but the point i was making is even when I ONLY run the pump (with PC powered down) i still can't seem to get lower than -10c. (That was the comparison i was making with a freezer; i wasn't taking the heat output of the PC into account) .

Also i think you're all right!! I have reached the limit of my chiller.

I suppose 2 weeks ago i would of been delighted to have gotten this far!!

But i ger to -10 now i want more.

The chiller cost £200 on Ebay. (250 U.S dollars). -10 for £200 (not counting cost of coolant and shipping and insulation) is not bad at all. 

Someone siggested buying a phase chsnge system. Those cost £1000+ and only do the CPU. My chiller cost £200. And does GPU too.

So never going to happen.

Maybe the next step for me is DRY ICE.

On the other hand I was SOO CLOSE to getting to my target overclock of 2300 MHZ on my GTX 1080.

If anyone can think of any way of getting another 10c-15c out the chiller please share

What about changing the gas to R22?


----------



## FireFox (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> Also i think you're all right!! I have reached the limit of my chiller.





It doesn't matter if you have the Machine on 
or off.



Nicholas Peyton said:


> Someone siggested buying a phase chsnge system. Those cost £1000+ and only do the CPU. My chiller cost £200.
> 
> So never going to happen.



I agree with you.


----------



## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 24, 2017)

Soneone said when i begun this experiment that i wanted "MORE COOLING NOW" and that actually made me smile.

I seen the funny side to it.

And now that im at -10c and i STILL WANT MORE COOLING NOW!! it is even more comical. Lol.


----------



## DR4G00N (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> What about changing the gas to R22? But R22 isnt even legally sold in the U.K anymore so another gas? I'm not sure.
> R134a was brought out as it does less damage to the ozone layer. But costs u more on ur electricity bill due being less efficient.



The compressor may not work with any other type of gas, it may work okay or it may blow it up.

Changing the gas yourself would be quite an undertaking. You would need to do many things to it like brazing on high & low side service ports as well as have the equipment on hand to drain, flush, vacuum & then recharge the system with the appropriate amount of gas (or gas mixture) and oil.
Not worth doing unless you already have everything.

For that unit it would be not worth doing anyway since it has a relatively weak compressor.

////

A single-stage phase change unit is not too expensive if you can do it yourself or have a buddy that has HVAC experience. Old used 5000 to 10000 BTU window a/c units are good for phase change units as they can be bought locally for dirt cheap. If the unit is strong enough you can even put multiple evap blocks in parallel to cool both the cpu & gpu.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> I was aiming to get 2300 MHZ _(2302MHZ_) *stable* on my GTX 1080. I got to fucking 2189MHZ. lol. Another 10c would of got me *stable* at 2300MHZ.



You mean 2189MHz max boost?


----------



## Mr.Scott (Jan 24, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> Ice isnt conductive. But it doesnt turn to ice (frost) straight away.
> 
> There's a period (time lapse) before it turns to ice where the moisture could still do damage. Also not all areas are frosty. The VRM side of the car tends to accumulate moisture while the I/O side gets frosty.
> 
> So i still need to insulate.


As a sub zero bencher for more than a decade, I'm gonna give you a little lesson right now. That frost/ice you see on your board is only on the surface. It doesn't go all the way to the board. Components on the board make enough heat to keep whatever's around them in a liquid state. Doesn't matter how minute it is, it's still wet.....and conductive. That is why you insulate.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 24, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> You mean 2189MHz max boost?



No i meant 2303 MHZ (pascal goes up in 13 mhz increments) so 2303 MHZ ;-)

I am rock solid stable at 2265 MHZ. Stable at 2277 mhz. Managed an OCCT run (with FPS limiter enabled) at 2190. And i got a few seconds  (non stable) run at 2303 MHZ (long enough to say I broke through, maybe) ;-)

All only possible due to the chiller. Before the chiller i was only semi-stable at anything over 2151 MHZ.



Mr.Scott said:


> As a sub zero bencher for more than a decade, I'm gonna give you a little lesson right now. That frost/ice you see on your board is only on the surface. It doesn't go all the way to the board. Components on the board make enough heat to keep whatever's around them in a liquid state. Doesn't matter how minute it is, it's still wet.....and conductive. That is why you insulate.



I hear what you're saying. 

@Mr.Scott got to -20 using the same model of chiller *(?)*

I'm interested in the comment you made earlier about pointing an extra fan.

However the compressor is actually cold (with frost appearing on the bottom of it) not warm... (at low temps) just wanted to know if you wanted me to aim the fan at the compressor (knowing it would travel through the unit helping the fan on the Condenser), but save explaining all that, you just asked me to point a fan at the compressor?
Then again; you did mention the compressor getting warm; which it was not...

I also recall (faintly); when first begun this little journey a few months ago and you mentioned having the same model as me (or did have at some point).. was that just a Hailea (maybe a more powerful one) or was it the Hailea HC-500a?  Can you recall whether your model used the newer more environmentally friendly R134a gas or the older R22?

The reason I'm curious; is because I have enjoyed this journey.  But I don't want it to end here.

I either need to find a way to get -20 out of my Chiller; or go on and begin researching something else.... 

Where did you go after your Chiller experience?  What was the next step for _you? 
_
As a new "bencher" I can't get to -10 and just stop...

But I also only paid £200 for my Chiller.  I'm willing to spend that again.. maybe a bit more... but nothing insane.

I don't have any friends who work in the air-conditioning industry.


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## Mr.Scott (Jan 24, 2017)

It was Hailea, but the model numbering was different then, but mine was a hair smaller than yours. Probably why my compressor ran warm. Anyhow, R22. It was not a new model by any means.

After chiller, I went to dice for a while. Single stage was too expensive back then.
That was when socket A was raging. This was normal prep back then, eraser front and back, plus dielectric in the socket.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 24, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> It was Hailea, but the model numbering was different then, but mine was a hair smaller than yours. Probably why my compressor ran warm. Anyhow, R22. It was not a new model by any means.



That explains it then; R134a takes a "significant" efficiency loss after -7c.

That loss due to R134a gas, I fear is what is holding me back (compared to your R22 model).

All of the Haileas (even the bigger ones) appear to run off R134a now.

They still list the biggest one as being under R22 on the Hailea website ; but the variants available in the U.K (from online shops) aren't listed on Haileas site; and feature slightly changed model names (I.E. 2200 instead of 2000).

I think it's illegal to sell any refrigeration equipment in the U.K now that uses R22.

So that begs the question; if I upgraded to a bigger model; I may still not get down low enough to justify the cost (seeing as they are all limited by this R134a gas).

Which is a shame; because I could have sold my HC-500a to offset the cost of an upgrade.

The U.K is a relatively cold & wet country. Second hand air-conditioning parts are probably also, much harder to come by here.

I couldn't even find a 2nd hand compressor on Ebay as powerful as the one in my Chiller. (unless I imported from the U.S; even then; I wouldn't have the first notion of how to rig everything up to build a cooler).
I might have to call it a day with the Chiller; and start looking into DICE... unfortunately it does seem to require a lot more attention (rather than insulate it and forget it).

Still; it would be interesting to see how far down people have got using bigger; R134a chillers.

Does the boiling point of the gas matter?;

The boiling point of R134a is -26.3c

R22 boiling point is -40.9c

/\ that may be important when *trying* to shop for an upgraded Chiller.  If it runs off R134a it's a definite no-go; no matter how powerful it is.... _(if the boiling point of the gas matters)._


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## FireFox (Jan 25, 2017)

Hailea HC chillers have strong metal chassis with a housing of
  contemporary design,ensuring the chiller does not look out of place in
  any surroundings and as with other cooling units,our chillers-the HC
  series use the environmental friendly refrigerant R134a.


Lower noise design,whilst the digital temperature ontroller ensures
  that the selected temperature is maintained.


The rate of flow is decided according to the max jet of the pump

(immersible power filter) and the circulation equipment.















 HC-2200BH 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2000L






 2HP 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 R22/R407C






 220~240V(110~120V) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 3000~6000L/H






 50Hz(60Hz) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 47kg






 7A 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 634×468×590mm


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 25, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Hailea HC chillers have strong metal chassis with a housing of
> contemporary design,ensuring the chiller does not look out of place in
> any surroundings and as with other cooling units,our chillers-the HC
> series use the environmental friendly refrigerant R134a.
> ...



It says in the description at the top its R134a.

But the specs at the bottom claim R22/R047C (ro47c doesn't even have its own boiling point and i can't seem to be able to find anything on google listing the boiling point when a blend of both are used).

More i think about it. It makes sense that efficiency drops the colder (closer) you get to the gas's boiling point; as if you reach that point (cold enough) the gas would cease to boil and evaporate altogether.

Same as water boiling on a stove, the hotter it is the faster it boils off.

So the colder you are in a chiller the harder its got to work (or the more boiling/evaporating cycles you've got to make to lose the same heat.

Its when the gas boils & evaporates that it picks up the heat;

So to summarise that. The lower the boiling point of the gas (refrigerant) used. The more efficient it is at lower temperatures. And R134a just doesn't cut it.

That explains why Mr. Scott was able to get lower, despite having a slightly less powerful machine. Because it ran on R22 gas. Which has a boiling point of -40.9c
At temps above sub-zero (what the chillers were intended to do) this efficiency loss would be negligible.

But for my sub-zero modified chiller, its a big performance drop.

You do indeed, learn something new every day. ;-)

UPDATE:

Just confirmed my hypothesis in my last message with someone more knowledgeable on this, than me.  I was right. 

The closer you get to the boiling point of the refrigerant used; the less efficient the system becomes.  That's also why the temperature drops faster from 30c to 20c than it does from 10c to 0c.

*I need to look for a chiller that uses a gas with a lower boiling point. Maybe R404;* which has a boiling point of -46c at normal atmospheric pressure.


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## Random Murderer (Jan 25, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Just confirmed my hypothesis in my last message with someone more knowledgeable on this, than me.  I was right.
> 
> ...


R404 and R407c would both be decent choices. R407c is supposed to be a more environmentally-friendly replacement for R22, but you may still have trouble finding it.
The boiling point for R407c is -43.6C, btw. I saw in an earlier post you were having trouble finding it.


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 25, 2017)

Random Murderer said:


> R404 and R407c would both be decent choices. R407c is supposed to be a more environmentally-friendly replacement for R22, but you may still have trouble finding it.
> The boiling point for R407c is -43.6C, btw. I saw in an earlier post you were having trouble finding it.




*What about something like this?

It looks identical to my Water Chiller (except I can't see a water tank / not sure about the evaporator). And runs off R404. -Single phase. (I've not performed any research on single phase yet).







 


*
Still has 1500W + cooling power at -5c and under 500 bux.

There's also a 1/4 HP unit there that still has 365w cooling power at -20c.. which would be perfect (its half the price).

I need to do a bit of research before I phone them, so I at least *sound like* I know what I'm talking about.

Not sure what it means by "liquid receiver".

*If anyone can give me a 'steer' please do   Would appreciate that very much *


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## revin (Jan 25, 2017)

To change gas would been very extensive undertaking. As with auto ac unit's the oil has to be completely removed and sizing of various tubing and valves must be changed.
Very few models were able to switch over when R22 was phased out. But on some it was possible to do but at a reduced efficacy. Also the size of the exchanger was a big issue thus needing a lot of math to get the R134 even close to working as R22. Maybe look for a way to see if the exchanger can be enlarged to help increase the gas change as on most freezers and refrigerators but most country's laws you must be able to capture and vacuum  to recharge the system.
 Speaking of which the vacuum is very important for proper operation especially as where you are now to get lower temps if it's just border line it will interfere/limit how well the gas will operate.
If there's a way to check the charge it will give you some data on how to proceed with what you have now.

Our van we had back in the mid 90's had a re-man pump installed but it would only go down to 4, spec was like 0-8. Thing is the original was able to pull 0-3, but also had trouble on high side. I put it back on for a while waiting for a factory new replacement since the re-man could not get cold enough. Just that small difference was huge effect  on cooling.
Looking t the size of the last pic and comparing jaggerwilds with yours it could be that is the limit of your exchanger to handle. Probably easer to just get the newer unit you posted.
Any way absolutely awesome job on getting done with what you have now


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks 

I am at a crossroad now; I need to make a decision to continue pursuing the Water Chiller route (and research how to rig a R404 condenser unit (like in the picture above) with a water tank.
or
Follow in Mr Scotts footsteps (and advice/inspiration) and start looking into DRY ICE. (also a million thanks, to everyone else, who has posted and contributed to my thread) 

Not sure what way I'm going to go yet; but my journey from rookie to 'intermediate cooler/bencher' definitely isn't ending here. 

P.S.
I also just created an account at hwbot. 

_It's 2c outside tonight; I'm thinking of moving the Chiller to the window (to be seated at the Windows height) and window WIDE OPEN) to see if I can beat -10c._


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## FireFox (Jan 25, 2017)

Nicholas Peyton said:


> It's 2c outside tonight; I'm thinking of moving the Chiller to the window (to be seated at the Windows height) and window WIDE OPEN) to see if I can beat -10c.



2 days ago we had -14c, that would be the right temperature for you


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## dorsetknob (Jan 25, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> 2 days ago we had -14c, that would be the right temperature for you




 you offering Nick Board and lodging for the winter  
i suppose its cheaper than Nome AK (-6c tonight ) or Nuuk Greenland ( -13c tonight )


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 25, 2017)

Lets see if this gets me to -20.

Ambient temp  (for chiller) is now 20c cooler. Lets see if that can translate into at least another 10c for me. 




The chillers condenser fan, will be blowing cold air through the chiller and into my house.




Dew point 1.4c
Temperature  (ambient) 6.4c


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## Nicholas Peyton (Jan 26, 2017)

That tubing looks like it could shatter into a hundred pieces.


Got another 4c out of her with 20c lower ambient temp. (Ambient of 3.5c)

So -14c best recorded sub-zero on a Hailea HC 500a.

-10c best recorded at an ambient of 24c


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

Arrakis+9 said:


> the amount of coolant in the loop is not going to make a bit of difference how well the pump preforms or how cold your loop will get, its a matter of how many pressure dropping components your using and/or the amount of vertical pressure your putting on your pump. those pumps you guys are using are usually rated to about 8/10 feet of head pressure which is seriously a lot of pressure for a 12v pump. flow rate is not everything when it comes to liquid cooling of any caliber. you have to remember that the more flow rate you put in a loop the less time the coolant also has to dissipate heat in the exchanger as well. you need to find balance in your loop, not everything is the same for every loop.



I have found this:

The chiller can only function properly if the cooling loop is equipped with a sufficiently powerful pump.

What would that mean?

If the water flow too slow the heat will sit longer on the CPU socket and if the water flow too fast it has less time to dissipate the heat

I am lost.


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## jaggerwild (Feb 5, 2017)

Some of my best runs where with, window open and rad out of the window!!!My Phase doesn't or hadn't taken me too far cause under load on a 2011 6 core CPU it leveld out at -48, so my water cooler pretty much did what ever my Phase change could do. I can post the info or PM you Nick of a guy in Texas that made mine. He hangs out at extreme systems, he's not cheap though........


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

Shit, i have asked something and you reply to @Nicholas Peyton


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## Mr.Scott (Feb 5, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Shit, i have asked something and you reply to @Nicholas Peyton


I will answer your question.

It makes very little difference. As long as you have flow around 1.5 gpm you'll be fine. No less than 1.0 gpm.


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> I will answer your question.
> 
> It makes very little difference. As long as you have flow around 1.5 gph you'll be fine. No less than 1.0 gph.



And how do i know that i have a flow of 1.5GPh?


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## Mr.Scott (Feb 5, 2017)

Sorry for that typo, it's actually gpm not gph.
A stopwatch and a 1 gallon container will pretty much let you know your flow rate. Fill that bucket in a minute or less and you're good.


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

I didn't get your theory, let's forget about it.

While Googling i have found this:

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/alphacool-vpp655-low-medium-or-high-rpm.203295/

What a coincidence, i am the OP


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## Mr.Scott (Feb 5, 2017)

It's not rocket science. Time how long it takes your pump to fill a 1 gallon container. If it fills it in 1 minute, that's 1.0 gpm. So if you want 1.5 gpm you need to adjust your pump speed (if you can) to fill that same container 1 1/2 times in the same minute.

Honestly, you guys are way over thinking this. For a competitive bencher the 1-2c difference might make a difference, but for what you guys are doing 24/7 it doesn't matter.


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

Mr.Scott said:


> It's not rocket science. Time how long it takes your pump to fill a 1 gallon container. If it fills it in 1 minute, that's 1.0 gpm. So if you want 1.5 gpm you need to adjust your pump speed (if you can) to fill that same container 1 1/2 times in the same minute.



Thanks for the advice.

There is now way i will disassemble the loop just to fill a 1 gallon container in a minute



Mr.Scott said:


> Honestly, you guys are way over thinking this. For a competitive bencher the 1-2c difference might make a difference, but for what you guys are doing 24/7 it doesn't matter.



Fair enough

Btw, the pump it's running at 2500rpm.


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## Mr.Scott (Feb 5, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> There is now way i will disassemble the loop just to fill a 1 gallon container in a minute



You asked. This is the easiest way.




Knoxx29 said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Btw, the pump it's running at 2500rpm.



Honestly, you're fine.


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