# Ethernet against the elements



## Toothless (Jun 24, 2018)

Okay so my roomie gave me the go to where I can run a cable under the house and into my room so I can just wire my room up off my router or even much better wireless. Anywho the cable will be outside and has to be able to take on the elements of the evil outdoors so here I am asking for help on picking out a cable.

Now three people on the forum have been to my place of computer hell and anyone that knows Western Washington can get an idea of what the weather is. I'm guessing I'll need a 50ft cable to reach (unless a 25 would work, haven't measured) and I'm clueless on brands.

Tl;dr what's a good 50ft shielded ethernet cable.


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## Kursah (Jun 24, 2018)

You want some shielded/direct burial cable, which will be waterproof as-long-as you don't compromise the jacket of the cable during the pull.

I'd recommend buying a box, that way you can run the length you need, terminate the ends, and have extra if you ever need to do any other runs or create your own patch cables in the future.

Cable: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GYGNCPO/ref=psdc_9938477011_t1_B001B6C5H8
Ends: https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Cat6-Cat5E-Crimp-Connectors/dp/B003M5BIII
Crimper: https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-RJ-45-RJ-12-RJ-11-TC-CT68/dp/B0000AZK4G
T568-B termination how-to: https://info.pcboard.ca/how-to-crimp-rj45-connector/

You could just buy a cable too: https://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Waterproof-Ethernet-Direct-Shielded/dp/B002L7M4ZY

The caveat is that a rare occasion the termination might be screwed, or the end is damaged during the run (say a spot where the cable fits, but the tip doesn't), or the cable is damaged during the pull to the point that section needs removed and retipped at that spot. There's also the odds that the run is fine and this is a good way for you to go.

You could also see what it'd cost to have an electrician do the run for you, some in my area are actually pretty affordable for stuff like this. Especially if the run is a pain in the ass, or may require some experience and forethought for a successful run that lasts long-term.


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 24, 2018)

Anything for outdoor use, however you may consider using what is called drop wire which can be burried, it is twisted pairs, some come in 5 pairs. If you do it right you would have drop wire from 1 exterior wall to another going to a jack on each end so you can plug in your rj45 lines. I've used drop wire for ethernet and it works just like cat 5/6, just heavier guage of conductor used.


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## Toothless (Jun 24, 2018)

Kursah said:


> You want some shielded/direct burial cable, which will be waterproof as-long-as you don't compromise the jacket of the cable during the pull.
> 
> I'd recommend buying a box, that way you can run the length you need, terminate the ends, and have extra if you ever need to do any other runs or create your own patch cables in the future.
> 
> ...


When my store was being remodeled, the network guys gave me boxes of cat5e in boxes like that, and I got my own crimper and ends and taught myself to make my own cables. Only two out of like, 8 cables didn't work in the end. Fun stuffs.

I'm thinking of getting the pre-made cable since the cable is going in and out of the windows (I keep my window open even in winter because yay cold air) and it's just easier in the end. However I'll keep those links saved for when I can take on custom cables again. 




eidairaman1 said:


> Anything for outdoor use, however you may consider using what is called drop wire which can be burried, it is twisted pairs, some come in 5 pairs. If you do it right you would have drop wire from 1 exterior wall to another going to a jack on each end so you can plug in your rj45 lines. I've used drop wire for ethernet and it works just like cat 5/6, just heavier guage of conductor used.


So those are the more industrial wires? I can see how those would work. Issue would be pricing though.


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## Aquinus (Jun 24, 2018)

Toothless said:


> So those are the more industrial wires? I can see how those would work. Issue would be pricing though.


You get what you pay for. You can risk going cheap and getting standard cabling but, if water gets in there or if interference is too high then you'll need to buy it anyways *after* you've done all the work that you'll have to redo again. This is one of those things where if you cheap out, you'll probably regret it. It's like buying a crappy power supply, sure, it might work but, it might cost you more in the long run if it decides to fry some hardware. Also, instead of guessing as to the length, I would actually measure it to make sure that 50 feet is enough.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 24, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Only two out of like, 8 cables didn't work in the end. Fun stuffs.


Highly recommend getting a tester.  They can tell you in a matter of seconds if all 8 wires (+ground if applicable) are transmitting.

I've had one instance where all the wires were correctly in place but somehow one of the contacts actually created a short (went into the jacket, hit copper, left the jacket, entered another jacket, and hit copper).  Tester showed it easily, looked closely at the ends, saw the wire pulled out of alignment, cut it off, replaced it, and all was good.  Dunno how much damage a cable like that could do (especially if PoE) but it never came to that thanks to the tester.


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## newtekie1 (Jun 24, 2018)

I've seen people cheap out and try to use normal CAT5e/6 cabling outside.  It will work at first. However, the elements eventually break down the insulation on a standard cable, it starts to get hard and brittle, and start to crack, and then bad things start to happen.

Get direct burial/outdoor cable for sure.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 24, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> You get what you pay for.
> but, if water gets in there or if interference is too high


I agree with the get what you pay for part, but if "under" the house (unless prone to flooding), I don't see how water will be an issue. Same with interference. There are typically more sources of interference inside the home than out (microwave ovens, adjacent power and data cables, TVs and other electronic devices). That said, you do want to make sure you don't run this under-house cable parallel to other cables running under the house too.

The bigger problem with exterior cables are UV damage from the sun (but again, probably not a problem being under the house) and rodentia and insect damage. 

Another option, besides external grade Ethernet cable is running the cable inside flexible conduit. Besides minimizing damage from critters, using conduit makes it much easier to replace the cable should you need to in the future as you can much more easily just pull it through without having to craw under the house again. Just make sure both ends of the conduit appear inside the "dry" home and there are no breaks in between. 

I have a friend who lives in Mississippi where very high humidity is a problem. To avoid condensation from collecting in the conduit during wide swings in temperature, he has the conduit terminating in a box, and a simple 5VDC box fan mounted to the box, constantly blowing air through the conduit. It takes very little CFM to keep the conduit dry inside. The fan is powered by a small USB power adapter. Something to think about. 

If you forgo conduit and go with exterior grade Ethernet cable, "invest" in top quality. The insulation will like better resist hungry critters, and be less resistant to kinks and bends.

@Kursah - do you have personal experience with those specific crimpers? I ask because years back, I wasted a bunch of money by failing to "invest" in quality crimpers from the start. My first pair  were budget crimpers like those. After 3 or 4 cables, I could only get a good crimp 1/2 the time. I started going through a bunch of RJ-11 and RJ-45 connectors. So I stepped up and spent about $25 on what I thought was a better crimper. But after a few cables, it too started failing to give a proper crimp. So I gave up and finally  invested in a Jensen crimper. I have probably made over a 100 cables (200+ crimps) since and have never got a bad crimp. So while those $45 crimpers ended up costing me nearly $100 (due to the 2 crappy crimpers and spent connectors I threw away), they have been well worth it in terms of no more wasted connectors and cable, as well as reduced blood pressure and a halt in hair line recession! 

That said, a cable tester is highly recommended for anyone who builds their own cables. A proper crimp is useless if you accidentally swapped Blue with White Blue on one end. Fortunately, you don't have to spend a fortune on a decent tester. You do still need nimble fingers and good lighting.


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## Aquinus (Jun 24, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I agree with the get what you pay for part, but if "under" the house (unless prone to flooding), I don't see how water will be an issue. Same with interference. There are typically more sources of interference inside the home than out (microwave ovens, adjacent power and data cables, TVs and other electronic devices). That said, you do want to make sure you don't run this under-house cable parallel to other cables running under the house too.


I agree but, not all of it is going to be under the house, as stated by the OP:


Toothless said:


> Anywho the cable will be outside and has to be able to take on the elements of the evil outdoors so here I am asking for help on picking out a cable.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 24, 2018)

If any is exposed to the sun and weather, then all precautions should be taken. It needs to also be secured so it does not flap around in the wind.


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## Toothless (Jun 24, 2018)

Hoooooly okay this got more relies than I thought. 

So since it's going under the house I was thinking of getting those little things you screw in to hold it up.







Since it's UNDER the house I'm sure no one would mind and there would be much less issue with water. The only two parts of the cable above ground are the ones going in and out the windows so that's where the direct sunlight would play effect.


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## Aquinus (Jun 24, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Since it's UNDER the house I'm sure no one would mind and there would be much less issue with water. The only two parts of the cable above ground are the ones going in and out the windows so that's where the direct sunlight would play effect.


...and that part outside is most likely the part that will fail. The cable under the house will do you no good if the small section outside degrades.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 24, 2018)

It would be much better to come up through the floor boards. You could much more easily seal and insulate those holes from the weather and insects.


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## Toothless (Jun 24, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> It would be much better to come up through the floor boards. You could much more easily seal and insulate those holes from the weather and insects.


It's a rental. Putting holes in might not be an option, unless the owner wanted the house to be updated.


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## Aquinus (Jun 24, 2018)

Any reason why you wouldn't consider putting an access point in the basement? I know that you mentioned in the past that the WiFi doesn't really reach your part of the house, so why not have an AP really close to your room? My laptop will speedtest 220MBit down when I'm about 15-20ft away from the AP with a single wall between the laptop and the AP. It literally minimizes any need for modifying the house or running cables outside, using a PoE-powered AP would also mean just one wire too.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 24, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Hoooooly okay this got more relies than I thought.
> 
> So since it's going under the house I was thinking of getting those little things you screw in to hold it up.
> 
> ...


That looks like a ground clamp.  You don't want that.  If you're looking for something similar, then you're looking for lil plastic ones you nail in place like this: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Can usually buy 100 of those for a few bucks at hardware stores.


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## Toothless (Jun 25, 2018)

Aquinus said:


> Any reason why you wouldn't consider putting an access point in the basement? I know that you mentioned in the past that the WiFi doesn't really reach your part of the house, so why not have an AP really close to your room? My laptop will speedtest 220MBit down when I'm about 15-20ft away from the AP with a single wall between the laptop and the AP. It literally minimizes any need for modifying the house or running cables outside, using a PoE-powered AP would also mean just one wire too.


No place between the two points to put it. I'd have to maybe stick it in the laundry room if there was an outlet in there.


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## Kursah (Jun 25, 2018)

Toothless said:


> No place between the two points to put it. I'd have to maybe stick it in the laundry room if there was an outlet in there.



You could consider using a UniFi AP that includes a PoE injector, that way all you have to do is run the Ethernet wherever you'd like the AP to be mounted/installed, data and power from one cable. The PoE injector could stay next to the router and feed off the same surge strip/power source. There are other AP's and PoE injector options, I just prefer UniFi, especially the AC Pro for solid value and performance.

+1 to what Ford shared, those work great and are super cheap to get a bunch of, great way to help keep your cables out of harm's way.


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## Aquinus (Jun 25, 2018)

Toothless said:


> No place between the two points to put it. I'd have to maybe stick it in the laundry room if there was an outlet in there.


You only need power by the router or where ever you decide to inject the power over PoE (Power over Ethernet.) When you get to the AP, you only need one wire, the Ethernet cable, because it will supply both power and data. That's why I suggested it because it makes it feasible to put things in places without power but, with an Ethernet cable.


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## Frick (Jun 25, 2018)

Could you clarify how you intend to pull the cable (unless you go with the PoE AP idea Aquinus mentioned, which frankly is the most sensible option)? I assume by "under the house" you mean through the basement? And will it originate in the basement or will you start on the first floor, go down to the basement and then out again? And you speak about open windows. I thought you lived in a cold climate? If yes, keeping windows open year round is nothing but a waste of energy.

But again, the PoE AP idea is probably the way to go in this case, unless you hire someone to make a proper job out of it (IE install outlets in the apartments). AFAIK PoE has gotten pretty affordable.


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## Athlonite (Jun 25, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> If any is exposed to the sun and weather, then all precautions should be taken. It needs to also be secured so it does not flap around in the wind.



Was just going to say something about that but you beat me to it although I'd like to add if it's going outside and you have alot of adverse weather or it's in a sunny exposed place then running it through conduit would be better than just using cable tacks to hang it off the wall


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## newtekie1 (Jun 25, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That looks like a ground clamp.  You don't want that.  If you're looking for something similar, then you're looking for lil plastic ones you nail in place like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It kind of looks like a grounding clamp, but it isn't.  It is really just a more robust version of what you posted.  The screw type is generally used for attaching cables on the outside of the building.


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## Toothless (Jun 25, 2018)

Frick said:


> Could you clarify how you intend to pull the cable (unless you go with the PoE AP idea Aquinus mentioned, which frankly is the most sensible option)? I assume by "under the house" you mean through the basement? And will it originate in the basement or will you start on the first floor, go down to the basement and then out again? And you speak about open windows. I thought you lived in a cold climate? If yes, keeping windows open year round is nothing but a waste of energy.
> 
> But again, the PoE AP idea is probably the way to go in this case, unless you hire someone to make a proper job out of it (IE install outlets in the apartments). AFAIK PoE has gotten pretty affordable.


Trailer home. 




Aquinus said:


> You only need power by the router or where ever you decide to inject the power over PoE (Power over Ethernet.) When you get to the AP, you only need one wire, the Ethernet cable, because it will supply both power and data. That's why I suggested it because it makes it feasible to put things in places without power but, with an Ethernet cable.


I remember hearing about PoE before. I'll look into it. My concern is if doing that still won't get the 60mbps+ that wired will give.


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## Norton (Jun 26, 2018)

You can use a bit of UV resistant pipe insulation to protect any section that may be exposed to the sun- should be able to get 1/2" EPDM foam insulation for a few $ at a local hardware store.


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## Toothless (Jun 26, 2018)

Norton said:


> You can use a bit of UV resistant pipe insulation to protect any section that may be exposed to the sun- should be able to get 1/2" EPDM foam insulation for a few $ at a local hardware store.


So like a wrap-around?


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## Norton (Jun 26, 2018)

Toothless said:


> So like a wrap-around?


I think we're talking about the same thing

This stuff:


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## Athlonite (Jun 26, 2018)

They may say it's UV resistant but really it's nothing of the sort it'll perish in 2 to 3 years with any amount of sun on it


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## Aquinus (Jun 26, 2018)

Toothless said:


> I remember hearing about PoE before. I'll look into it. My concern is if doing that still won't get the 60mbps+ that wired will give.


100Mbit ethernet only uses two of the 4 twisted pairs so, the two unused ones get used for PoE so, you'll at least get full-duplex 100Mbit. Gigabit shares two of the twisted pairs with power so it might not be as fast but I can assure you that it will be at least 100mbit fast if not faster (when using gigabit.) I personally find the concern unfounded. A lot of businesses will use PoE for access points throughout an office building and you'll easily see more than 100Mbit over something like that when driving a wireless AP.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 26, 2018)

Athlonite said:


> They may say it's UV resistant but really it's nothing of the sort it'll perish in 2 to 3 years with any amount of sun on it


More like 5 or 6 years, but I agree, it will start to disintegrate in 2 or 3 years. I use that stuff on the coolant pipes from my AC compressor unit outside that runs into the house and they certainly don't last forever. 

In all fairness, mine are not protected from the rain so that may not help - especially when it drops below freezing at night. Water can get trapped inside those foam tubes. Plus, they provide zero protection from insect or other critters. 

I think regular PVC "conduit" would be better and more importantly, it can be completely sealed from the elements. And, if you take the time to "dress" it up properly with 90° vertical and 180° horizontal runs, it will certainly look more professional than foam tubes. 

Don't forget to make a drip loop if there will be any down angle. 

Last, I cannot emphasis enough that it would be MUCH BETTER to go through the wall instead of a window opening. Simple exterior grade feed-through bushings can be used and easily sealed with silicone sealant/caulking. Your local tool rental store will most likely have 18 to 24" drill bits just for this task.


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## jsfitz54 (Jun 26, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I think regular PVC "conduit" would be better and more importantly, it can be completely sealed from the elements. And, if you take the time to "dress" it up properly with 90° vertical and 180° horizontal runs, it will certainly look more professional than foam tubes.



By *regular* you mean the *Grey electrical conduit*: https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Schedule-40-Conduit-67462/202295893

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electri...uit-Fittings-Conduit/PVC/N-5yc1vZbohlZ1z0usnc

https://www.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cab...llic-Liquidtight-Conduit-6002-30-00/202286688


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 26, 2018)

Well, it comes in different colors, ridged or [somewhat] flexible as you showed, but yeah, that's what I meant. It's cheap, easy to work with, and it works.


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 26, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> That looks like a ground clamp.  You don't want that.  If you're looking for something similar, then you're looking for lil plastic ones you nail in place like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah and they are a pain to put in at times


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## jsfitz54 (Jun 26, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Well, it comes in different colors, ridged or [somewhat] flexible as you showed, but yeah, that's what I meant. It's cheap, easy to work with, and it works.



The White is usually drain/ vent pipe.  Color can change by location or age of when installed such as yellow/ tan for drain /vent pipe.
To be clear, we are not talking about PEX:  https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Pipes-Fittings-PEX-Pipe-Fittings/N-5yc1vZbuty
and we are not talking about sprinkler pipe/ underground water which is black:  https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-in-x-100-ft-IPS-100-psi-NSF-Poly-Pipe-X2-1100100/205903465


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 26, 2018)

Toothless said:


> It's a rental. Putting holes in might not be an option, unless the owner wanted the house to be updated.



People who get internet and tv services in rentals would need holes drilled etc, it is a matter of sealing the outsise using all weather silicon to keep bugs and water out.


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## Toothless (Jun 26, 2018)

Will the protective cover be worth it if the cable isn't on the ground? I can have it hang in the rafters on the belly of the house, leaving the only two exposed areas being in and out of the windows.


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## Frick (Jun 26, 2018)

I still think going through windows is a terrible idea. Do you get cold winters? How do you heat up the house? Having windows open in cold weather is just a waste of energy.


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## Kursah (Jun 26, 2018)

Frick said:


> I still think going through windows is a terrible idea. Do you get cold winters? How do you heat up the house? Having windows open in cold weather is just a waste of energy.



Agreed, do some crawling and ID-ing what's under the floor, drill some holes near the corners, easier to hide with carpeting and wall trim. Use some caulk to seal the holes from the bottom once you've secured the run. 



Toothless said:


> Will the protective cover be worth it if the cable isn't on the ground? I can have it hang in the rafters on the belly of the house, leaving the only two exposed areas being in and out of the windows.



Protective covers for the cable will also help keep critters from chewing on it as well. Under houses in crawl spaces or under trailers are great areas for chewing through stuff to occur. 

As said above, using windows as outlets makes little sense. Get a small drill bit, some caulk, and go through the floor as close to the wall as possible, even if you need to temporarily remove any trim to do so.


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 26, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Will the protective cover be worth it if the cable isn't on the ground? I can have it hang in the rafters on the belly of the house, leaving the only two exposed areas being in and out of the windows.



It would keep critters or other animals from chewing on it. Most runs typically are mounted on the head boards or soffits of homes because it is easier than trying to navigate an attic.

If you go with straight cat5e and not direct burial type make sure it is for outdoor vertical use.

You could probably find a video of an ATT installation too. Make sure you leave drip loops too


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## Aquinus (Jun 26, 2018)

I still think that a PoE AP in the basement right under your room would be the easiest option. If you already have the space in the basement to run the cable, it eliminates any issue with going outside and it doesn't require any modifications to the house. You also get to be able to connect any other wireless device to the AP closest to your room. You also have the added benefit of being able to take it with you should you decide to move and it won't degrade from being outside or anything. The only down side is that it's an added cost but, it's a solution that solves a lot of problems and makes things easier across the board.

Also, wire going through a window won't let you shut the window all the way unless you modify the window, which is a thing.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 26, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Make sure you leave drip loops too


Make damn sure you do this.  Water will destroy everything given the chance and enough time.


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## Toothless (Jun 26, 2018)

Kursah said:


> Agreed, do some crawling and ID-ing what's under the floor, drill some holes near the corners, easier to hide with carpeting and wall trim. Use some caulk to seal the holes from the bottom once you've secured the run.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





eidairaman1 said:


> It would keep critters or other animals from chewing on it. Most runs typically are mounted on the head boards or soffits of homes because it is easier than trying to navigate an attic.
> 
> If you go with straight cat5e and not direct burial type make sure it is for outdoor vertical use.
> 
> You could probably find a video of an ATT installation too. Make sure you leave drip loops too


Issue with those ideas is I can't drill or cut anything. It's the summer and the window next to the modem is open for the AC, and my window is always open for fans. In the winter that's a different story since it can get pretty cold, though I still leave my window open.


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## Kursah (Jun 27, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Issue with those ideas is I can't drill or cut anything. It's the summer and the window next to the modem is open for the AC, and my window is always open for fans. In the winter that's a different story since it can get pretty cold, though I still leave my window open.



Can't and won't are two different things. 

I understand not modifying someone else's property though, but a small hole in a discreet location can be easily patched and sealed. Still would be a better long term solution than routing out the window, along the siding. But I digress, you see your situation from one perspective, all we can do is offer our experienced opinions from our perspectives on what we'd do in your situation. No pictures, floor plans, blue prints, on-site visits, that leaves room for speculation and assumption. I'm thinking you'll be fine no matter how you do it, but how long you'll be fine for is up to what suggestions you choose to go with. Frankly, I think it'll be a great experience for you no matter what! 

Sounds like you need to order some supplies, roll up your sleeves, and get after it. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 27, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Will the protective cover be worth it if the cable isn't on the ground?


If not exposed to direct sunlight, or insect or rodent activity, probably okay - at least for a few years.

Can you get power under the house? Maybe a better (hole free) solution is to put a WAP (wireless access point) under the floor of your room.


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## Caring1 (Jun 28, 2018)

Toothless said:


> Will the protective cover be worth it if the cable isn't on the ground? I can have it hang in the rafters on the belly of the house, leaving the only two exposed areas being in and out of the windows.


I've been running an ethernet cable to my room like that for a number of years, slung under the house as it is on stumps a metre above ground. The only difference is I drilled holes through the floor adjacent to the skirting boards to put the cable through. The cable shows no sign of weathering.


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## Toothless (Jul 13, 2018)

Okay so I want to have a closing to this thread. My store was having some good sales so I went for some 16GB flashdrives, two pack for $15 I think which was fine, probably paid too much but rewards card+employee benefits is pretty good. I saw the 50ft ethernet was $18.60 and went for it. Came out the cable was $12-something which was even better. Roomie said I can route it in the house so no going outside and around the house. 

I pay for 80/10 and this is what I get _with a few things streaming, like remote desktop and Spotify._





I'm going to keep this thread saved in case where I move next comes a reason to go to the great outdoors. Thanks everyone!


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 14, 2018)

Thanks for the update but I must add if you pay for 80/10, that's what you should be getting. Not 71.8 and 9.9!

The 9.93Mbps upload speed is probably within some margin of error so you probably can let that one slide. But 71.78Mbps is more than 10% below what you should be getting.

I recommend you test your speeds a few more times with all other connected devices powered off. If your download speeds are consistently low, that should be contested. 

So check your contract again and make sure it does not say "up to" 80/10. In my opinion that "up to" clause should be illegal but that's for another discussion. If your contract does not have such a consumer unfriendly term, you need to contact your ISP and demand they comply with the service contract. If they cannot improve the bandwidth, then IMO, you should get a 10% discount on your monthly bills.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 14, 2018)

They always advertise it as "up to."  Networking equipment is always marketed that way.


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## jboydgolfer (Jul 14, 2018)

you could use something like this to shield the cables, & pretty cheap too. ive done it in the past. They are usually PVC, and come with corners, and straight runs. You can also get tube type shielding as well.


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## Frick (Jul 14, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Thanks for the update but I must add if you pay for 80/10, that's what you should be getting. Not 71.8 and 9.9!
> 
> The 9.93Mbps upload speed is probably within some margin of error so you probably can let that one slide. But 71.78Mbps is more than 10% below what you should be getting.
> 
> ...



As Ford says, that's not really how it works.


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 14, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They always advertise it as "up to."  Networking equipment is always marketed that way.



Yeah its called tolerance percentile, he is within range.


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## Kursah (Jul 14, 2018)

Agreed with everyone above @Bill_Bright , that's not how it works with ISP bandwidth guarantees nor what can be demanded, at least in my experience. Please read on. 

In my area for example, if you're within 80% of your advertised bandwidth, then the ISP's state that's within acceptable tolerances. There will be no free work or support provided and if you truly demand they fix it, you'll pay outta pocket. I've also been told that from other ISPs around the nation when working with clients. It actually males sense to me IMO a d probably cuts way down on field tech costs and on site scheduling.

You can demand the ISP find an issue, but they can and will decline to fix it for free nor do more than reboot/reprovision your modem if its above that 80% threshold. Again that's in the areas I've lived and supported clients.

That all being said, I'm lucky at home, my Charter Spectrum 100/10 cable tests 120/13 most nights.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 14, 2018)

My ADSL provider advertises "up to 6 Mbps," you will either get 6 Mbps, 3 Mbps, 1 Mbps, or 256 kbps.  The amount of money you pay is the same for all four.  What speed your line is set to depends on the SNR.

I had another ISP that sold me "up to 10 Mbps" and QoSs users to 5 Mbps after using more than 5 Mbps for more than two minutes.  I even complained to the FCC about that one and they didn't care.

In USA, you have no rights in regards to internet performance.  It really only comes down to "do you have service?"  If yes, the telcomm is upholding their end of the contract.


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## Aquinus (Jul 14, 2018)

Kursah said:


> You can demand the ISP find an issue, but they can and will decline to fix it for free nor do more than reboot/reprovision your modem if its above that 80% threshold. Again that's in the areas I've lived and supported clients.


When I lived in northern NH, the acceptable limit was 50% of what the plan calls for. That was with Time Warner and that was also their self imposed threshold. I paid for 15, got 2 and for 9 months I got free internet until they fixed it, granted we had to call them to get our free month... every month.


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 14, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Networking equipment is always marketed that way.





Frick said:


> As Ford says, that's not really how it works.


 It IS how it works. Please read again what I said. I am not talking about the network "equipment". My comments had nothing to do with the equipment. It was all about the service contract.

And please note I said to check the contract to see what it says and I specifically said to look for that "up to" clause. That clearly indicates I have a clue how it work. So please, cut me some slack here.

And there is no industry standard for what is considered acceptable tolerances. Just because one ISP in your state says they can rip you off of 20% of your contracted bandwidth, that does not mean other ISPs in other states can. And yes, each state can set their own rules and regulations here. Whether you can get your AG to enforce them or not is another issue.

And obviously, there are many factors beyond the ISP's control that must be considered too. If the computer in question has an antique 10Mbps NIC, or is using an 802.11b wifi adapter, it would be lucky to get 10Mbps speeds. This is why I also specifically said to test, "with all other connected devices powered off" because that too can make a difference.

My contract, for example, clearly says "up to" 50 Mbps download and 5Mbps upload so I am aware that "up to" is commonly used. But if I was only getting 40Mbps (80% of 50) between my location and my ISP's PoP (point of presence) - and that PoP distinction is important here - I sure would be on the phone complaining - especially if I was representing one of my business clients.







I obviously have nothing to complain about. My PoP is 10 miles away. That test is to a sever 1000 miles away. So I'm happy.


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## Frick (Jul 14, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> It IS how it works. Please read again what I said. I am not talking about the network "equipment". My comments had nothing to do with the equipment. It was all about the service contract.
> 
> And please note I said to check the contract to see what it says and I specifically said to look for that "up to" clause. That clearly indicates I have a clue how it work. So please, cut me some slack here.
> 
> ...



"Up to" especially applies to ISPs.


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 14, 2018)

Frick said:


> "Up to" especially applies to ISPs.


Yeah, it sure is often used, but not just by ISPs. I just got a promotional ad in the mail for a local store that says to scratch some spot for, "Huge discounts up to 50% off". But when scratched, it was just 10%.


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## Toothless (Jul 14, 2018)

So the test was done with a few things running as stated in my last post. Typically I can get 75/9.8-9.9 in speedtests which is a lot better than before and with other ISPs in the area. Honestly the project was to get more out of what I was paying and total cost is like, $18 since I had to get picture holders to hold the cable up high and out of the way.


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## jboydgolfer (Jul 14, 2018)

Kursah said:


> In my area for example, if you're within 80% of your advertised bandwidth, then the ISP's state that's within acceptable tolerances.




your 100% correct....my "speed guarantee" is a bit lower though
Charter (in my area) will guarantee no more than 75% of advertised bandwidth.  That's not an opinion, or an idea that I have formulated out of thin air, it's an absolute fact which as of the last I spoke with them about a month and a half ago ,was still accurate.  I've had issues with Internet bandwidth on multiple occasions over the past 10 or 15 years.  My current speed package is 100/5,  as far as charter is concerned as long as I get no less than 75 Mb per second, or the same fraction in up speed, they are providing the service within the terms of their contract. I'm not saying i like it ,but it's true

 I have to admit though, I've been lucky over the past few years because my bandwidth actually exceeds what my modem is provision for


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 14, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> you could use something like this to shield the cables, & pretty cheap too. ive done it in the past. They are usually PVC, and come with corners, and straight runs. You can also get tube type shielding as well.




I just use T25 u-shaped Staples about 2 ft apart...


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 14, 2018)

Frick said:


> "Up to" especially applies to ISPs.


Gigabit NICs are "up to 1000 Mbps."

Like I said, consistent across all network equipment.  Hammer any network device with enough packets and the network throughput is going to decline.  Doesn't matter if it is a LAN, WAN, PAN, UAN, etc., there's only so much bandwidth, so much switching capacity, and so much routing capacity.  If enough devices on the network decide to all stream something at once, the limitations become apparent.



Toothless said:


> So the test was done with a few things running as stated in my last post. Typically I can get 75/9.8-9.9 in speedtests which is a lot better than before and with other ISPs in the area. Honestly the project was to get more out of what I was paying and total cost is like, $18 since I had to get picture holders to hold the cable up high and out of the way.


I did say WLAN sucks, didn't I? 


Keep in mind that speedtests are easy to fool by ISPs.  They often give QoS priority to speed testing websites and set up network rules so that speed tests have a large enough window to finish and display advertised speed.  A better test is a large sustained file transfer (e.g. downloading GTAV through Steam).  If ISPs throttle traffic or your entire connection, it will become apparent by the time the download finishes.  As I mentioned before, I caught my previous ISP doing this red handed.  I complained, he tried to blame my equipment.  I told him it's not my equipment (no QoS rules set).  Then he asked if I wanted to discontinue service.  I declined and filed a complaint with the FCC.  FCC didn't care.  ISP didn't care.  I was stuck with it until I could change ISPs again.  The ISP I'm on now doesn't throttle at all; however, they also block all incoming packets.  I ended up having to buy a static IP just so the ISP could forward incoming packets to my IP.

TL;DR: you wouldn't believe what ISPs can get away with in regards to rural customers.  I'm paying >$50/mo for 6 Mbps connection.  The best I can get is 15 Mbps and that will run north of $80/mo.


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## Toothless (Jul 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Gigabit NICs are "up to 1000 Mbps."
> 
> Like I said, consistent across all network equipment.  Hammer any network device with enough packets and the network throughput is going to decline.  Doesn't matter if it is a LAN, WAN, PAN, UAN, etc., there's only so much bandwidth, so much switching capacity, and so much routing capacity.  If enough devices on the network decide to all stream something at once, the limitations become apparent.
> 
> ...


Steam downloads at about 65-75 so I think it's not bad.


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Gigabit NICs are "up to 1000 Mbps."


 
Sorry, but no. You are talking about IEEE 802.3 Ethernet hardware standards. Not what a "service" provides. If you can show us in the IEEE 802.3ab standard (.3ab is the specific standard for Gigabit Ethernet over copper UTP) where hardware makers can deviate and make such disclaimers, I would be very interested in seeing that. I just looked and could find no such exceptions. The standard just says Gigabit Ethernet supports data transfer rates of 1Gigabit (1000 megabits) per second over CAT-5 cable. The only "up to" mentioned refers to the cable length which is "up to" 100 meters.  (See Gigabit Ethernet)

A device cannot claim to be compliant with the IEEE 802.3 Gigabit Ethernet standards if it cannot support 1000Mbps. Does that mean it must obtain 1Gbps speeds in every real world application? Of course not! There are too many variables beyond the makers or adapter's control - starting with the cable connector and cable.

Sorry, but I just looked at NICs from Netgear, D-Link and Linksys, two switches, and one router. And just like this D-Link, none said "up to" in their Ethernet specs. 

Of course there may be some exceptions, but those would be exceptions to the rule, not the rule. So I am not saying some shady Ethernet hardware makers won't try to weasel out of their requirement to meet the standards they claim to support. But I will say I cannot find any Gigabit NIC that claims "up to" in their published technical specs as you suggest (wifi is another story, however).

But this thread is not about hardware meeting industry standards. 



FordGT90Concept said:


> TL;DR: you wouldn't believe what ISPs can get away with in regards to rural customers.


Rural support in many areas is abysmal but not sure it is fair to blame the ISPs. It costs a lot of money to bring cable or DSL access out to those rural/remote locations where customers may be 100s of yards or even miles apart. The ISPs either have to charge those customers more, or force (or be forced by more government regulations) to have the rest of us in urban and suburban areas subsidize those who live out in the boonies. 

And FTR, while my plan is for 50Mbps, I sure would not say the $72 per month I have to pay is chump change - especially since the cable company has had to come out just once in 30 years to replace the drop after a storm in 2009 took out a tree that took out the cable. I am just saying you should not feel discriminated against. The ISPs are ripping off every one.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 15, 2018)

NICs auto-negotiate rate (IEEE 802.3).  They'll drop performance (Annex 28B) if the line conditions or switching equipment warrants it.


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## Bill_Bright (Jul 15, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> NICs auto-negotiate rate (IEEE 802.3). They'll drop performance (Annex 28B) if the line conditions or switching equipment warrants it.


No disputing that. But now you are talking about line conditions and "other end" equipment. I already mentioned above variables beyond the devices control, "starting with the cable connector and cable". Those are different scenarios from your initial claims. Gibabit NICs still must support 1Gbps if they claim to be 802.3 compliant. 

But again, this thread is not about the hardware. Let's move on.


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## sneekypeet (Jul 15, 2018)

OP has requested closure, so....


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