# Some e-cigarettes can increase risk of cancer by 5-15 times



## twilyth (Jan 24, 2015)

This seems to apply mainly to e-cigs that use a high voltage to vaporize the nicotine "juice."

Article from NIH.



> When used at low voltage, e-cigarettes did not create any formaldehyde-releasing agents, the researchers found.
> 
> *However, high-voltage use released enough formaldehyde-containing compounds to increase a person's lifetime risk of cancer five to 15 times higher than the risk caused by long-term smoking, the study said.*
> 
> ...


emphasis added.


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## 64K (Jan 24, 2015)

I know a guy that stopped smoking by chewing Nicorette gum but he's still chewing the gum 3 years later. Nicotine is a hell of a drug. I started smoking when I was 14 and smoked until I was 45. I went the Mark Twain route.





*“Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times.” *

― Mark Twain


Honestly they should just make a nicotine powder to place under the tongue for the quick fix without all of the harmful chemicals added to cigarettes. It's not as fast as absorption through the lungs for immediate gratification but sublingual absorption is the second fastest.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 24, 2015)

There has not been enough time to tell what E-cigs will do to people.


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2015)

With a bit of luck this problem will be sorted out and smokers will be able to use these aids to giving up, safely.

I hope the selling of cigarettes is made illegal one day, but that's probably wishful thinking.

I'm glad that smoking has never been one of my vices.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 24, 2015)

yeah cos prohibition rocks , why do some people feel the need to tell others how to live dude.

dont get me wrong i just Quit smoking via champix tablets and i do pine for a bit of nic still at the moment but i quit because they are not good for you but.

i should be able to injest, inhale what ever i want whenever i want without a nair do right piping up, there are too many on this planet anyway why the feck we need to prolong everyone's lives is beyond me, what the feck are all these old gets going to do in a 100 years anyway when jobs are in short supply as is food and housing and water.

if you wants to smoke yourself stupid crack on imho though i also concur, education on the issues is super important.


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## ...PACMAN... (Jan 24, 2015)

If I gave up smoking I could afford a much nicer rig, my body would thank me and so would my Dad who died of cancer.

Whilst typing this I was smoking a cigarette.


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## P4-630 (Jan 24, 2015)

I use an kangertech e-sig with dual coil since April last year, the batteries are 4.xx volts, not 5 or higher.


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Jan 24, 2015)

I just switched to a Kangertech e-cig with the hope of quiting. I have 2 e-cigs, one that has nicotine and one without. I am hoping to taper down the nicotine content lower and lower every couple weeks until I don't need it anymore. And there has been a big money savings.


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## P4-630 (Jan 24, 2015)

ThE_MaD_ShOt said:


> I just switched to a Kangertech e-cig with the hope of quiting. I have 2 e-cigs, one that has nicotine and one without. I am hoping to taper down the nicotine content lower and lower every couple weeks until I don't need it anymore. And there has been a big money savings.



At the moment I'm using menthol e-liquid with 18mg nicotine, I like a throat hit and there must be enough vapor.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

I stopped smoking on Dec 1st after a misdirected painkilling injection caused my lung to collapse.    I have smoked for 35 years, i fucking loved them.

I have been using patches which are great for stopping.

I firmly believe that nicotine isnt a particulary bad drug on the scale of things.   It is the method of delivery that is the problem and the many toxins in smoke.

Our lungs arent designed to smoke, they are designed to cough the shit out.  E cigarettes are too new for anyone to say, but again i think they are the wrong delivery system for nicotine.


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## HossHuge (Jan 24, 2015)

What I don't understand is what gets people to start smoking?  I  mean other than peer pressure as a kid or people thinking that it's cool or something, what is it?


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 24, 2015)

I have a custom dual 18650 unregulated box with a tugboat dripper. I only use high VG type liquids from makers close to were I live. I feel better and breath better than when I did on the analogs. I believe it does help and people will say its safe but I would say safer not as bad as the analogs.

Oh and BTW here are some more studies that debunk the formaldehyde posts

http://www.clivebates.com/?p=2706








http://video.foxnews.com/v/4007895304001/gutfeld-new-e-cig-study-goes-up-in-smoke/?#sp=show-clips
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/2014/188-frm-jp
http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/22/does-formaldehyde-make-e-cigarettes-wors
http://www.clivebates.com/?p=2706


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

HossHuge said:


> What I don't understand is what gets people to start smoking?  I  mean other than peer pressure as a kid or people thinking that it's cool or something, what is it?




I found them to be quite moreish.




And yes... without doubt THE most stupid thing i ever did.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 24, 2015)

Some people deal with stress and other depressants in their own way. They are many ways people start smoking and some are dumb and some are justifiable.


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## HossHuge (Jan 24, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> Some people deal with stress and other depressants in their own way. They are many ways people start smoking and some are dumb and some are justifiable.



Whatever helps you sleep at night.  But Like @CAPSLOCKSTUCK said,  it is the stupidest thing anyone can do.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

I speak wih a lot of experience,

it might not be the first smoke you have....it could be the first person to give you that smoke or where you had it that is the problem long term.

All schools know they have students who smoke, they cant stop that, what they can stop is their students putting themselves at risk from meeting freaks and pushers behind ASDA or wherever so theres usually a place in school the kids go.

Dont be fooled---of course the teachers know where it is, they also know where you are.  Get it ?

Smoking cigarettes in hideaway places enabled me to meet pushers of every kind who i would not have otherwise meet.

Cannabis isnt the gateway drug............... FUCKING cigarettes are.

I guarantee your kids will smoke a cigarette before they try a spliff.


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## xfia (Jan 24, 2015)

i could write a paper on all the worse things you could do than smoke a cig.. 

i would never smoke other brands for the sake of my health.. of course best not to but if your going to put stuff in your body..


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Jan 24, 2015)

P4-630 said:


> At the moment I'm using menthol e-liquid with 18mg nicotine, I like a throat hit and there must be enough vapor.


I am Using Va tobacco with 18mg of nicotine. I the other I have Cola with no nicotine. I also have grape, Strawberry, Boston Creme pie , Ice blast and a fruity tequila. The Tobacco is the only one with nicotine in it.


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## 64K (Jan 24, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> I speak wih a lot of experience,
> 
> it might not be the first smoke you have....it could be the first person to give you that smoke or where you had it that is the problem long term.
> 
> ...



In my experience you are correct. Our High School Circa 1979 had a "smoking pit" for cigarette smokers in between classes and that's where you could buy dope. Pot, Quaaludes, Valium, blotter acid etc.


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## erocker (Jan 24, 2015)

HossHuge said:


> What I don't understand is what gets people to start smoking?  I  mean other than peer pressure as a kid or people thinking that it's cool or something, what is it?





HossHuge said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night.  But Like @CAPSLOCKSTUCK said,  it is the stupidest thing anyone can do.



Yep, that's pretty much it. I was a dumb kid when I started, thought it was cool to smoke when hangin' around with my skater buddies. After 20 years I managed to quit with a lot of gum and nicotine patches. It was easier quitting cocaine.


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## xfia (Jan 24, 2015)

i firmly believe you more addicted to the hands full of chemicals in popular brands than nicotine itself.  i would smoke 15-20 before i switched to american spirit and now its 2-5. i dont care so much when i run out anymore.. like going out in the middle of night instead of going to bed so i could have one in the morning.


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## FireFox (Jan 24, 2015)

HossHuge said:


> What I don't understand is what gets people to start smoking?


I didn't understand too, I always said that I was happy because I had never smoked but unfortunately and unknown reasons I started to smoke at the age of 31 and today I am 35, I had to quit smoking for 6 months because I was doing
an Anabolic + steroids cycle due to the gym but after 1 month I finished the cycle
I started smoking again.

I am a Smoker but I really hate and bother me a lot if someone smoke beside me and I
can't stand close places where many people are smoking.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

I know theres inflation and all the rest of it but just for the sake of hopefully stopping one member here from  smoking.

This is just tobacco....................................... i am too frightened to factor in my weed consumption.



Lets say    £ 8.00     per pack

365 days of the year

multiplied by my 35 year career of smoking cigarettes


*£   102,200.00*



to put that into perspective........ i paid £ 120,00.00 for my 3 bedroom house


What a stupid prick i was to take up smoking  !!!


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## xfia (Jan 24, 2015)

yeah when i think about the eyefinity gaming rig and mustang i could have right now instead of cigs and weed its just sad


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## digibucc (Jan 24, 2015)

HossHuge said:


> What I don't understand is what gets people to start smoking?  I  mean other than peer pressure as a kid or people thinking that it's cool or something, what is it?


why does anyone drink alcohol? why eat fatty foods? lots of sugar? It's the rare individual who is not self-destructive in some way with what they put into their body. Luckily for myself I never really got into smoking cigarettes. don't get me wrong I did for a time, and have bought them plenty - but they're to this day not enjoyable and if i have one it's rare and i don't finish it. When I do it's for stress relief or social drinking. I think I am done for good now though .... which would be nice 



xfia said:


> View attachment 62049


that's what my buddy swears by. He gets the cans and rolls em.


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## Jetster (Jan 24, 2015)

Quit 9 years ago after buying as $700 mountain bike. I still ride


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

We do it because it s pleasurable.

Drugs feel nice thats why we do them.

They are damaging which is why we shouldnt do them.  

With the right education people are sensible enough to make their own minds up about nicotine, cafeine, alcohol weed, the list goes on.

 Do some research in to why marijuana was criminilised in the 20's, absolutely nothing to do with public health... absolutely everything to protect the interests of cotton growers who were being driven out of business by hemp production.

A very important part of US history.


When my pc started smoking the fookin PSU blew up.


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## Aquinus (Jan 24, 2015)

I smoked cigarettes for about 4-5 years until my wife gave me the option having her or cigarettes. I chose her.


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## FireFox (Jan 24, 2015)

My Girlfriend wouldn't give me any option because she smokes too


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

When my lung collapsed they put a chest drain in, its a clear bucket with a pipe from your lung to drain the liquid.

I quit after 35 years as i was walking to the reception desk in the hospital to ask where the smoking area was and thought just how stupid i looked.

It gets such a grip on you.    Dont do it, its a gateway to          aaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllll the others, i know i have been there,

the up ones ,
the down ones
and the round and fucking round ones.


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## Aquinus (Jan 24, 2015)

Knoxx29 said:


> My Girlfriend wouldn't give me any option because she smokes too


I did say I stopped smoking *cigarettes*. I'll leave that open to interpretation to some extent, but will say that I do enjoy a cigar now and again on special occasions but I can say that tobacco is definitely not my vice of choice. I also didn't find quitting hard, but I also never exceeded half a pack a day.

I started with Lucky Strikes, then moved on to camel filter, then camel filter wides (!!), then camel lights, then marlboro reds, then lights and ended there. I never really liked menthol either.


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## Champ (Jan 24, 2015)

I'm not a smoker, but I use a vaporizer. Some of the e liquid that are well made taste amazing. The cheap one's probably cause issues. Its essentially vapor and pg and vg. Same stuff in the food and drink we consume everyday. They want to regulate it, so they'll say anything.


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## Aquinus (Jan 24, 2015)

Champ said:


> I'm not a smoker, but I use a vaporizer. Some of the e liquid that are well made taste amazing. The cheap one's probably cause issues. Its essentially vapor and pg and vg. Same stuff in the food and drink we consume everyday. They want to regulate it, so they'll say anything.


Some more recent studies have found nicotine itself to be carcinogenic aside from smoking. Considering how such a small amount of nicotine can be toxic, I'm more likely to believe that it will harm you even if you ingest it in a safer way.
Source 1
Source 2
Source 3


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## RealNeil (Jan 24, 2015)

HossHuge said:


> What I don't understand is what gets people to start smoking?  I  mean other than peer pressure as a kid or people thinking that it's cool or something, what is it?



For me, it was peer pressure that got me started. (14 years old) As a young man I wanted to fit in, so I smoked like all of the other kids.

When I quit, (at 38 years old) it was the birth of my third child combined with my sister (a nurse) taking me to an autopsy of a man who smoked for 50+ years.
When I saw the inside of his lungs, I never smoked again.


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## Aquinus (Jan 24, 2015)

RealNeil said:


> When I saw the inside of his lungs, I never smoked again.


Did it look something like this? Obviously the on the left is the healthy one.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 24, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> Some more recent studies have found nicotine itself to be carcinogenic aside from smoking.




 nicotine vs caffeine

http://www.livestrong.com/article/91383-caffeine-nicotine/


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## ste2425 (Jan 24, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> Did it look something like this? Obviously the on the left is the healthy one.


Can't be that healthy , where's the rest if them?  I started at 16, was very drunk at a house party. Found some cigs and thought what the hell. Now I'm 24 and smoke 6-7 a day. Personally I couldn't give a shit. I do think that others shouldn't be subjected to my habits however so I don't smoke in the car/house or in groups of none smokers. The only reason I'm trying to quit is I want to learn how to weld and buy a Capri.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

> *Chemicals in tobacco cigarette smoke*
> 
> Acetaldehyde: suspected carcinogen.
> Acetone: irritant: can cause kidney and liver damage.
> ...


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## 64K (Jan 25, 2015)

Marlboro Reds were my choice back in the day (cowboy killers). When they went with the box that was great for my pocket and solved bent and broken cigarettes





Leave them alone. It's not worth the consequences.


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## qubit (Jan 25, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> Did it look something like this? Obviously the on the left is the healthy one.


This is a great pic. If this doesn't put a smoker off I don't know what will.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 25, 2015)

chemicals in nicotine
                     nicotine




nicotine...... please try patches if you want to give up . i smoked 35 yrs.     Keep the nicotine, ditch the smoke.

patches for nicotiine.

Vape for THC


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> chemicals in nicotine
> nicotine
> 
> 
> ...



Dude I am not trying to quit! Vaping for me is not quitting.... its being able to continue to smoke but being safer. I never said in any of my posts that I am doing it to quit.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 25, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> Dude I am not trying to quit! Vaping for me is not quitting.... its being able to continue to smoke but being safer. I never said in any of my posts that I am doing it to quit.




you vape pure nicotine?

I dont want to give up nicotine just chemical laden smoke.  Patches are a nice release.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> you vape pure nicotine?
> 
> I dont want to give up nicotine just chemical laden smoke.  Patches are a nice release.



NO dude do even know anything about vaping? there is only a small amount in it according on what you get, 0/3/6/9/12/16/18/24-MG out of whatever ml you buy.






So 12MG is 0.25ml of the 30 ML Ejuice I smoke, (I actually use 6mg or below)


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 25, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> NO dude do even know anything about vaping? there is only a small amount in it according on what you get, 0/3/6/9/12/16/18/24-MG out of whatever ml you buy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed i know nothing about vaping nicotine, never claimed to. I do know about the efficacy of nicotine patches as a safe delivery system.  I am using them, they are good.

I have extensive experience of THC vape methods having been a med user for over 6 years as a treatment for chronic pain. And a recreational user for 30 years.

Each to their own, one of your opening posts mentioned the unknowns regarding vaping tobacco substitutes, i agree with you, the tech is new and the long term effects are still unknown.

I love nicotine and THC.......... i am not a big fan of lung cancer.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

We will not know the long term effects of vapor for a long time. there is study after study after study and one says its bad the other says its not then its back and forth. From my experiences it made me feel better from smoking tobacco. I do not cough up black or green shit anymore, I do not get winded from walking long distance or up stairs, and I do not smell like a french butthole.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 25, 2015)

First there was snuff, it gave people brain cancer.
Then smoking in pipes, it gave people lip, mouth and throat cancer.
Then people chewed it, it gave them gum, cheek , tongue and throat cancer,
Then big business put it in pretty packs riddled it with untested chemicals and you could get cancer anywhere all of a sudden.

All that took 450 years and it has killed millions and lined the pockets of a few and thats without the shit of slavery that made it all cheaper !!!

If you smoke thats your choice, make an educated decision and consider the financial and health costs  ITS A MUGS GAME  ...... have kids, you;ll learn.


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## Champ (Jan 25, 2015)

well if you can control the wattage on your vape, its damn near like a breathing treatment. Like I said, no nicotine, just a hobbyist. It an interest way to experience new taste.


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Jan 25, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> I never said in any of my posts that I am doing it to quit.


I did and it is working so well. I am going to cut the nicotine down till there is none and just vape for the cool flavors. I am at 18 mg now down from 24. Next stop 12.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 25, 2015)

So the formaldehyde is an additive in the vape? as per the thread title 

If your doc can give  patches to you like they do in the uk, try them . its a nice dose of nicotine with NO other shit. Its not social admittedly but equally its not anti social.

If you like vaping, shit man we would probably have a fucking scream vapeing together


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## silkstone (Jan 25, 2015)

I'm a little confused about why voltage is an issue. Surely it should be the power? and 5 V at 10 ohms gives the same amount of heat as 3.6 V at 5 ohms.
It also reads like "If you use this device incorrectly, it can cause cancer!" Kind of like: Omg! beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide!
The article is scaremongering. I know that the pharmaceutical industry is really worried about the growing popularity of e-cigs, I'd like to know how the study was funded.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> So the formaldehyde is an additive in the vape? as per the thread title
> 
> If your doc can give  patches to you like they do in the uk, try them . its a nice dose of nicotine with NO other shit. Its not social admittedly but equally its not anti social.
> 
> If you like vaping, shit man we would probably have a fucking scream vapeing together



No thats not what it means, formaldehyde is def not a an additive. They are claiming that with higher heat the chemical compound of eliquid is changed and may put out formaldehyde.


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## johnspack (Jan 25, 2015)

I have been doing a huge amount of research on this.  The confusion lies in the cloud chasers environment.  They go for extreme sub-ohm coils,  below .5 ohm,  and extreme high wattage,  not voltage.  Actually at high wattage the voltage is quite low,  the amperage is quite high.  These people are reaching combustion temperatures,  that produce toxins.  Very stupid.  I have been vaping for a year now,  I do not ever use my ecigs like that,  even though I have the equipment to do so.  Very irresponsible of them,  and puts a bad face on ecigs,  as these do save lives,  not take them.
Edit:  these are guys running 100 watts or more as well,  your little spinner batteries can't do this......


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## Laurijan (Jan 25, 2015)

This study caused dry hits - a situation where most ppl would turn off the e-cigarette and refill or change atomizer.
The used high voltages certain atomizers are not supposed to work with too..
http://www.clivebates.com/?p=2706


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 25, 2015)

*125-150°C  temp at which nicotine vapes*
*
180 - 210 °C temp at which THC vapes
*
in the early days of THC vapeing resourceful hippies made vapourizers out of light bulbs and dimmer switches. When a vapour appeared above the weed the dimmer was at the right setting. other than being bone dry and completlly devoid of THC the vegetable material was untouched.

Thats how people vaped before industry got involved.

I am not advocating their use i am encouraging education.


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## johnspack (Jan 25, 2015)

I agree.  I also have a vaporizer that operates at up to 210c,  and no more.  But build ecig coils is user preference,  and you can choose to use a sane amount of wattage,  like 30 max out of 100 which my mod can produce.
I don't like toxins.  I use 1.1 to 1.3 ohm coils,  get nice clouds,  and tons of flavor.  I don't understand the cloud chasers....  I just saw a 400 watt mod doing .04 ohm builds...  that's cancer city,  I'm sorry.  An educated
user,  is a safe user,  and hopefully a smart user.


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## Champ (Jan 25, 2015)

I put on my big boy pants and just step up to a Seven 22. That a lot to me. 22 watts and the battery holds a 4.2 voltage max. Likely lower after a couple of hits. And I'm gonna be using 1.5 to 2 ohm coils. Article is full of crap. Now I believe the 100 watts vapes are silly. That should feel like inhaling fire. I believe that causes damage.


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## Jetster (Jan 25, 2015)

I think they might know what they are talking about

SOURCES: James Pankow, Ph.D., professor, chemistry and civil and environmental engineering,
Portland State University, Portland, Ore.;
Gregory Conley, J.D., M.B.A., president, American Vaping Association;
Eric Jacobs, Ph.D., strategic director of pharmacoepidemiology, 
American Cancer Society; Jan. 22, 2015, _New England Journal of Medicine_


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

johnspack said:


> I have been doing a huge amount of research on this.  The confusion lies in the cloud chasers environment.  They go for extreme sub-ohm coils,  below .5 ohm,  and extreme high wattage,  not voltage.  Actually at high wattage the voltage is quite low,  the amperage is quite high.  These people are reaching combustion temperatures,  that produce toxins.  Very stupid.  I have been vaping for a year now,  I do not ever use my ecigs like that,  even though I have the equipment to do so.  Very irresponsible of them,  and puts a bad face on ecigs,  as these do save lives,  not take them.
> Edit:  these are guys running 100 watts or more as well,  your little spinner batteries can't do this......



I run around 110W with a my parallel 18650 @ 4.2v and a build of 0.15ohms and I use is daily


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## twilyth (Jan 25, 2015)

I don't think there's any disagreement about the fact that vaping CAN be better than smoking cigarettes. The issue seems to be about break down products created at high temperatures, at least I'm assuming that's where the formaldehyde comes from.  So if anything, what the article is really about is the need for some sort of oversight regarding the products that are sold.

We have safety regulations for most things we consume with the exception of things like nutritional supplements, alcohol and probably a few others.  Right now, there are no checks on nicotine juice and vaping products.  Most nicotine comes from China and there are no inspections or testing of those products.  People won't even feed their pets food from China any more but people don't think twice about nicotine.  They assume that if they bought the end product from a US source that it must be fine, except that's not the case.

So for now, you have to try to watch out for yourself.  That's where information like this can be useful.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jan 25, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> nicotine vs caffeine
> 
> http://www.livestrong.com/article/91383-caffeine-nicotine/


Nicotine is far worse in terms of habit formation than caffeine.  I've never met someone that couldn't kick caffeine if they wanted to.  The key word is "want."




CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> So the formaldehyde is an additive in the vape? as per the thread title


No, it sounds like heating the liquid excessively causes formaldehyde to form.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

Here is an example for people that do not know what higher wattage vaping looks like. I just uploaded this with my daily vape


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## johnspack (Jan 25, 2015)

I still prefer to stick to 30 watts,  good enough for me.  Also,  acetoin will create diecetyl at high temps.  Of course if you mix you own eliquid like I do,  I avoid all harmful ingredients
just to be sure.  No food dyes ect,  it's just common sense if you really want to be safe.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

johnspack said:


> I still prefer to stick to 30 watts,  good enough for me.  Also,  acetoin will create diecetyl at high temps.  Of course if you mix you own eliquid like I do,  I avoid all harmful ingredients
> just to be sure.  No food dyes ect,  it's just common sense if you really want to be safe.



Yes I always avoid liquids with rich colors like those smurf style liquids cause most manufacturers put dye in it to make it that smurf blue color


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## Champ (Jan 25, 2015)

Funny because Smerf Vendetta is one of my top 3 favors.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 25, 2015)

Champ said:


> Funny because Smerf Vendetta is one of my top 3 favors.



Yea even though it tastes like blue berry does not mean the flavoring they used was blue. Most flavorings I have seen from lorann, FA, or TFA are clear and some kinda with a tint. Nicotine as it ages breaks down kinda like soda when it goes flat. This makes the nicotine turn yellow. I have two type of Hawaiian Punch flavors and one is about a month old and its yellowish when the one thats about a week old is crystal clear.

Here is a list of flavors from lorann that are safe to vape. 

http://bestvaporflavors.com/best-lorann-oils-vaping/


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## ThE_MaD_ShOt (Jan 25, 2015)

What I use for my daily's are 2 Kangertech Evod batts with Kangertech T3D heads with 1.5 dual coils. My juice comes from a small shop in the town I work in. The tobacco one they mix for me has a tint of cherry in it. It's so good.


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## johnspack (Jan 25, 2015)

100 watt mod here,  you can see I run 30 watts,  and above 1 ohm.  Just don't need any more!


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## johnspack (Jan 25, 2015)

Also,  you may glean some information from my still very alpha info site.  I'm abouts to take it down and have a friend redo it in dreamweaver,  as I've used the default godaddy tempate arg....
www.nelsonvapes.com


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## Aquinus (Jan 25, 2015)

johnspack said:


> I'm abouts to take it down and have *a friend redo it in dreamweaver*


 Friends don't let friends make websites in Dreamweaver. If you want to make it pretty, just use Bootstrap to get started and write some HTML from scratch and it will look good by default.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 27, 2015)

twilyth said:


> I don't think there's any disagreement about the fact that vaping CAN be better than smoking cigarettes. The issue seems to be about break down products created at high temperatures, at least I'm assuming that's where the formaldehyde comes from.  So if anything, what the article is really about is the need for some sort of oversight regarding the products that are sold.
> 
> We have safety regulations for most things we consume with the exception of things like nutritional supplements, alcohol and probably a few others.  Right now, there are no checks on nicotine juice and vaping products.  Most nicotine comes from China and there are no inspections or testing of those products.  People won't even feed their pets food from China any more but people don't think twice about nicotine.  They assume that if they bought the end product from a US source that it must be fine, except that's not the case.
> 
> So for now, you have to try to watch out for yourself.  That's where information like this can be useful.



Have another read what twylth said.



Nicotine is harmful but we know a lot about it. It has some beneficial effects and is used medicinally in pharmaceuticals.

Nicotine vapes within a certain temp it seems to that if you exceed that temp you are smoking all sorts of unlicensed, untested and unknown chemicals.

One of the known long term damaging effects of cannabis use is that t is inhaled differently, big puffs of smoke that are held deep in the lungs.

Typically, being a social thing, the stoner would then sit about or whatever and probably not take another deep breath till the next spliff arrives.

The people i see vaping nicotine draw this shit deep into their lungs and hold it there.
It is bad for you, the shit sits there deep in your lungs. Thats where emphasema starts. You might be coughing but your
not clearing that part of your lungs.

I wonder how they make the exotic flavours.
Those smelly chunks you find in urinals are available in china in all sorts of flavours..

Big breaths...hold it in.....then visit the consultant who CT scanned my lungs 3 weeks ago.

young kids smoke this shit because it tastes nice.
 Whos fucking brilliant idea was that?

Remember the problem with alcopops?

A few people are making a fortune out of this and i bet they couldnt care less about the crap thats in them or what is created when it burns.


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## R-T-B (Jan 27, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> There has not been enough time to tell what E-cigs will do to people.



There's been plenty of time to understand what *formaldehyde *does to people however.  Pretty simple leap of faith from there.



> Whatever helps you sleep at night. But Like @CAPSLOCKSTUCK said, it is the stupidest thing anyone can do.



No, it's not the stupidest.  But it's not smart.

EDIT:  Didn't read the whole thread, but if people truly are confident formaldehyde isn't in their vapes, then I will conceed:  E-cigs may cause no bodily harm.  You may not have an increased risk of cancer.  There may be no ill side effects.  You might be alright.

That's intentionally vague...  and if it still worries you, it should.


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## Lopez0101 (Jan 27, 2015)

Worth considering that at normal voltages there was no detectable formaldehyde. Formaldehyde was only seen when running the vape they used to an extreme no user is going to use. They even said that at 5.0v it was a 'dry hit'. Dry hits are horrible. They taste foul. No human is going to purposefully suck down dry hit after dry hit. This study actually proved that there is no formaldehyde at normal ranges, therefore, better than cigarettes in that case.


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## fullinfusion (Jan 27, 2015)

I almost fell outa my seat when I seen this thread.

I'm a vapor, in fact I build my own funky coils, I use only Japan cotton that's been boiled and then dried.

I use a sigelei 100 watt box mod with 70 amp combined cells.. I've got spinners, and an Istick with an assortment of kanger and aspire tanks..

I love dripping on my all american made 454 bigblock baby! On a .2ohm twisted dual 28 gauge wire I'm firing 60-70/watts but it all depends on my mood.

Now down to the bullshit.. These fuck tards and there so called tests on ejuice, IMO they must use that shitty Chinese juice.. Look what they put in your kids toys and ppl have the nerve to scream that ecigs are bad.. Don't take me wrong, I do agree that some juice may be harmful and the american media always give out numbers of nicotine poisoning, but 99% of them don't say what or how the poisoning happened. Leave it up to parents that leave there juice bottles open and easy to get at for kids.. A kid smells cotton candy for example, what do they do? They take the dripper and lick the dam juice and most of the poisoning happened that way. Its government paying idiots to publish shit on e-cigs to sway the ppl from using the electronic version of smoking... Why? Tobacco tax!!! They can't tax something that it isn't.. Just like certain states want to ban ecigs.. The ppl bitch that its nasty and whatnot but like a person said, judge it for what it is and not WHAT you think it is. It just pisses me off how disrespectful some are over this.. Cigs are a death sentence by all means and vaping is a much healthy option. I used to Vape 24mg of nic, now I'm bouncing between 3-6mg and it all depends on what Atty I'm using. My dripper at 3mg is almost to much at times but I know the cut off and stop.

Forgive me for bouncing all over, its late and I did a lot of miles so bare with me.

I used to smoke tobacco for years, so much in fact it gave me a heart attack a few years ago. Troubled and depressed from it all and the time off work I smoked off and on over many months. I was turned on to ecigs and dabbled back n forth between the electronic and the tobacco and some time both for some time. One day I said fuck it because I can't have both and never touched a cigarette for the past few years. Vaping was my crutch away from the nasty stinky tobacco and I now look back and think what a dam fool I was to smoke. Vaping I can atest to has saved my life.. I can breath and not cough up a lung like I did when using tobacco.. Food tastes great.. The house don't stink and my health has done a complete 180 

Another thing, I haul livestock, hogs, and you know how much those fuckers stink on a 90°f summer day. All the pissing and having the shavings soak it up and the ammonia that's released is unbearable to breath when unloading when someone smokes. Now its not an issue with me vaping.. Lungs are clear and I laugh at the 2 fister smokers at my work coughing and spitting when they come out of that trailer.. But hey the internet never lies right! A guy at work smokes 3 packs a day and he tells me, I'll never Vape that shit! Why I ask? Because I read it online that its worse then smoking... Omfg!!! And he's serious too lol. But whatever humans will never change. They only believe in what they want and most have never even vaped, but they're sure on the anti Vape wagon..

I'm going to bed, fuck this for tonight... But before I do im going to rip a huge ass lung hit of some real tasty ruthless ejuice and rip it at 80watts just to say fuck all the BS on this anti Vape BS.

Good night and sorry for the bad words but I'm passionate on this subject so later


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## R-T-B (Jan 27, 2015)

To try to curb the animosity here, I don't think anyone is arguing that ecigs are WORSE than cigarettes (though they could be, I find this really unlikely).  It is however, quite possible they are still doing you harm and they are no substitute for quitting unless quite frankly, you just can't do that.

The idea is foreign to me because I can't envision many things I'd willfully smoke or ingest on the premise that it "might not hurt me, we just don't know yet."  Sounds shady.  But if you already smoked, you've already made that mistake and your options are limited, I totally get that.  Addiction is tough.  People need to have some compassion on that front as well.


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## fullinfusion (Jan 27, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> To try to curb the animosity here, I don't think anyone is arguing that ecigs are WORSE than cigarettes (though they could be, I find this really unlikely).  It is however, quite possible they are still doing you harm and they are no substitute for quitting unless quite frankly, you just can't do that.
> 
> The idea is foreign to me because I can't envision many things I'd willfully smoke or ingest on the premise that it "might not hurt me, we just don't know yet."  Sounds shady.  But if you already smoked, you've already made that mistake and your options are limited, I totally get that.  Addiction is tough.  People need to have some compassion on that front as well.


No I'm not arguing with anyone here at all. Its the ppl that say its wrong by twisting there testing that gets to me. Think about this, tobacco has thousands of chemicals in its combustion. Vaping ingredients are pg and vg. Look at your food, a lot have vg already in it.. Pg is the safe alternative that , well look at it this way... If your dog drinks propylene it dies.. This is the safe kind alone other uses.. The flavoring is if its a good juice maker uses USDA grade food flavorings and nothing else.. Nicotine in low levels have been proven to slow down Alzheimer's ... Tbh I don't think they've proven that nicotine in low levels harm the human body at all besides being a stimulant and addictive.. Just like the morning coffee and the caffeine 

To me its a hobby, the nicotine is just an added benefit to the flavor. There's a lot of time I don't even use nicotine and it doesn't bother me. 

Smoking is a nasty killer but MHO this vaping is going somewhere and has helped a lot of ppl kick the habit. Like I said before my opinion is the government is loosing a pile of money in taxes every year and they hate it.. Canada its illegal to sell juice with nicotine in it but there's shops popping up everywhere.. Blu brand ecigs used to be legal until the government seen a dramatic drop in tobacco tax in British Columbia a number of years ago and banned them from being sold. How can you ban something that's legal in one way and not the other. Nicotine is present in both but they say its illegal!? Screw them! The Canadian sergon general was interviewed a few months back and he honestly said that ecigs are a safer way of getting nicotine into the body.. But couldn't comment on the effects of vaping and good for him.. Its about time someone wasn't the mans puppet in this matter and was straight up honest by saying its going to take a large number of years to see if any what side affects may or may not arise.


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## Jetster (Jan 27, 2015)

Its not hard to see that putting anything in your lungs is bad. Back in the 60s they said filtered cigarettes were a safe alternative to the non filter. Nicotine its not good for you and if you must use, try an alternative route. Any other argument is just justification for addiction. I know that's not what you want to hear but I quite because it was killing me. I know if I take one hit off a e cig I will be hooked.


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## Lopez0101 (Jan 27, 2015)

Sports are bad for your joints. Running on concrete is bad for your knees in the long run. To live is also to slowly waste away in old age. Is vaping better than smoking tobacco? The consensus, so far, seems to be that yes, it is better for you. Is it better than not inhaling anything? No. We inhale tons of bad things just existing in this modern age. Being obese is demonstratably unhealthy. I'd rather people be a healthy weight and vape than be obese and not smoke anything.

Everything can be harmful to a degree.


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## Tatty_One (Jan 27, 2015)

Increases risk of cancer by 5 - 15 times?  I would think that's good if smoking cigarettes in the long term increases the risk 100 fold?


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 27, 2015)

fullinfusion said:


> Nicotine in low levels have been proven to slow down Alzheimer's ... Tbh I don't think they've proven that nicotine in low levels harm the human body at all besides being a stimulant and addictive.. Just like the morning coffee and the caffeine



Seems like fullinfusion has extensive experience of the real "evil weed"

I also smoked for over 35 years.. yes 35 years.   I fucking loved smoking, everything about it.

The best bit when i started was just how much it pissed my parents off.  That was a good idea wasnt ? proper punk then wasnt i ?

Then my brother went to work for Camel in the UK.  Guess what, they HAD to smoke in meetings.
Fortunately lt meant unlimited smokes for me. Oh, thats handy.

Try pleurosy,    i have,    its when the lining of the lung seperates from the wall of the lung. Every breath fels like a stab from a knife, Guess what, i didnt stop smoking.

Cigarettes are highly adidtive, i have genuine personal experience.

In my own personal experience nicotine is more addictive than
alcohol
Weeed
Smack
Coke
Speed
or any of the vast menu of painkilers i have taken for years

The one drug i MUST have everyday is caffeine.

I will say it again... taking up smoking is the stupidest thing you can do, no, i will rephrase that because obviously there are other stupid things out there.
I have done many many stupis things. taking up smoking was the stupidest thing i think i ever did.

This topic is about vaping.
What i am trying to say is please dont smoke, try not to smoke as much as you do and please educate yourself.

Im on the patches so i still get my fix and a nice fix it is too. I smoke copious amounts of weed but i smoke it neat with a filter.

As with everything the choice is yours, if you decide to be ignorant of the facts placed before you so be it.

Remember Governments couldnt give a fuck if we smoke. They want our money, they also have interests in the tobacco companies.

If i could be bothered i would find out how much the UK govt makes in tobacco tax every year, but im ready for a spliff now.


To all my chums in the US.   Do a bit of reading about your " founding Fathers"  fucking hell they LOVED tobacco money.


In my opinion vaping is not safe. I think people smoking vapes in public look idiotic. 

have you seen that stupid thing that Snoop Dog is selling.....Jump on the band wagon make yourself a fortune.

http://www.gpen.com/products/snoopdogg

my mate has one .  Guess what .....its shit.


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## Lopez0101 (Jan 27, 2015)

Probably because tobacco was a cash crop back then, like cotton.


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## Aquinus (Jan 27, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> In my own personal experience nicotine is more addictive than
> alcohol
> Weeed
> Smack
> ...


If you're into medical science at all, you might find this little wiki article on the FOSB protein interesting as scientist believe it plays in addiction with respect to long term DNA transcription changes in our genes that regulate this particular protein.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB

It's important to remember though, while all of those listed drugs are addictive, how addictive they are and their potential for abuse are very different. For example, someone who tries Cocaine for the first time might get addicted that night. For a cannabis user to get addicted, it requires long term constant use before the body start changing how it works because of the drug.

Then you compare something like a psychostimulant (I'll use Methylphenidate as an example, as it has a very specific mechanism of action and is commonly abused as a nootropic) where withdrawal consists of the opposite of what the drug does. The same is true of alcohol. The difference is their target. Methylphenidate (Ritalin) is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, as a result coming down results in sedation and typical occurrences of a sub-performing dopamine system, basically lack of energy and motivation; sedation. Alcohol on the otherhand down-regulates GABA in your brain which is the primany inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. Abusing alcohol will substitute alcohol for endogenous GABA and your brain starts producing less GABA. As a result, when you stop, you brain basically goes into overdrive and certain neurotransmitters like Glutamate start firing extra fast, which is in part controlled by GABA, and can cause excitotoxcitity which you can die from, because your body can't counteract other neurotransmitter systems properly.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that the addictive aspect of drugs is directly tied to what it does in the body and how much you use it, but being dependent on a depressant is one of the worst things you can do to your body whereas ingesting cannabis is relatively benign compared to all of the others your listed. Although to say that cannabis isn't addictive at all would be irresponsible and untrue. It's just harder to judge cannabis because it has a lot of contradictory actions and doesn't impact all people the same way, probably due to different ratios of THC to CBD as well as variation in anadamide levels in the brain and CB1 receptor expression, but that's a discussion for another time.

Going cold turkey with nicotine might make you feel like crap, but it's not going to harm you nearly as much as withdrawing from a depressant like alcohol or a benzodiazepine.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 27, 2015)

Lopez0101 said:


> Probably because tobacco was a cash crop back then, like cotton.



Exactly ....    * CASH *... and it is still a cash crop now. You cant even feed the by products to live stock, its illegal.
Talk about hipocritical.    Our kids can smoke it but our cows cant eat it.


tobacco was marketed as a health product initially.

research the early LEGAL marijuana production in the US

research what the world had to say about it in 1912


It takes about 5 minutes to WIKI and it makes for an interesting read.


I would say for me cannabis is habit forming and not addictive. i definitely dont crave it like nicotine.

I can go days without weed and a few hours without nicotine.  Hey we are all different. I think personal experience is a lot more valid than hearsay and speculation.








AN APPLE A DAY KEEPS THE DOCTOR AWAY.............


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## Lopez0101 (Jan 27, 2015)

Hemp production cut into cotton profits.


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## AsRock (Jan 27, 2015)

No surprise here, i bet they all do just the others are at acceptable levels BS.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 27, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> Exactly ....    * CASH *... and it is still a cash crop now. You cant even feed the by products to live stock, its illegal.
> Talk about hipocritical.    Our kids can smoke it but our cows cant eat it.
> 
> 
> ...



I have to say thats the saddest roll job I have ever seen. A blind man with no hands could have did better.

Oh and BTW, The american heart association posted that vaping is safer

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-american-heart-association-says-vaping-is-safer-than-smoking


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 27, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> I have to say thats the saddest roll job I have ever seen. A blind man with no hands could have did better.




you make no sense with that statement. And i think you will agree we are all entitled to an opinion without prejudice  ( you know..... "the American way" )




brandonwh64 said:


> Oh and BTW, The american heart association posted that vaping is safer



Operative word being SAFER.... not safe.

*Some e-cigarettes can increase risk of cancer by 5-15 times*

may i remind you of the title of this thread


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## Lopez0101 (Jan 27, 2015)

It's safer not to drive a car than it is to drive one. I don't think anybody here is going to argue that vaping is harmless.


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## Iceni (Jan 27, 2015)

I've seen that article a few times. What it doesn't tell you is what coils, voltage, and wicking material was used. It also does not tell you how the voltage was pulsed, And what the pull count was per cycle.

It is known that if you dry burn then the PG part of the E-liquid it can break down into nasty chemicals. It has to get quite hot for it to break down like this, And when it does break down the taste is unbearable.

Most regulated mods have a 10 second puff limit. And they have ohms, and wattage limits as well. You can set any coil to burn hot enough to produce the break down effect with enough power, And some people will push the coils in search of clouds. For the every day vaper this is not the case.

The biggest problem atm is not that vaping may have dangers. We know it does. The biggest problem is big money is working to try ban vaping or regulate it to the point of been useless. And it's not just big tobacco that are in on the act, Big Pharma are loosing out on nic replacement sales. As Ecigs have a higher cessation rate at a lower cost, Governments are loosing out because there is no tax like with tobacco and the laws to tax Ecigs have been slow to appear. And the final problem is Health Organizations like WHO that are attempting to shape research to make ecigs out to be more dangerous than they are.

I've been vaping myself 6 months now, I've gone from 24mg to 0mg. And the hardest part of the process. The initial switch. Once you have done 3-5 days on vape you will not want a tobacco cigarette. And then stepping down the nic content can be done without even noticing any side effects. You don't vape more, You don't crave more. It's almost like pure nic isn't addictive.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 27, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> you make no sense with that statement. And i think you will agree we are all entitled to an opinion without prejudice  ( you know..... "the American way" )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That maybe the title of this thread but do you really believe everything on the internet is true cause it can't be posted on the internet if its not true...


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 27, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> Oh and BTW, The american heart association posted that vaping is safer
> 
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-american-heart-association-says-vaping-is-safer-than-smoking






brandonwh64 said:


> do you really believe everything on the internet is true cause it can't be posted on the internet if its not true



Nuff said

Education and experience, thats my angle.. 

 A wise man once told me                    " learn from* other* peoples mistakes"                i am hoping people may learn from my mistakes.


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## brandonwh64 (Jan 27, 2015)

anything will kill you its just some thing will kill you faster.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 27, 2015)

brandonwh64 said:


> anything will kill you its just some thing will kill you faster.




enjoy your formaldehyde.


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## Lopez0101 (Jan 27, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> enjoy your formaldehyde.



I'll enjoy the absence of formaldehyde, which is right there in the research, because I don't dry hit or vape above 5.0v.


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## Iceni (Jan 27, 2015)

Lopez0101 said:


> I'll enjoy the absence of formaldehyde, which is right there in the research, because I don't dry hit or vape above 5.0v.



Your wrong if you think it's voltage alone that will cause the problem.

Heat is the problem. It doesn't matter what voltage you use if your coils are trying to get to white hot then your going to have trouble. The truth is when it's bad it's unvape-able. You can tell instantly something is not right because it tastes so bad you almost gag. There is very little chance that you would ever vape a device that is trying to kill you for more than 1 pull.

I can build a hot nano coil at 1mm on 30awg kanthal that is silly hot. In order to make it vape nice you have to know the airflow of the RDA, and be able to either bed down or over-wick effectively. They juice and airflow will stop the coil getting to the level of producing chemical breakdowns. If you get that build wrong you will know instantly.

As for the testing, If your not a vaper, and you just setup a coil on cotton and blast it for 20 min it's going to build enough heat to go bad, regardless of the build. It's not how we vape, but the article doesn't specify how long the pulse was, what the airflow was, what the average coil temp was. Without that information the article is useless.


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## erocker (Jan 27, 2015)

Perhaps this discussion is better suited for www.generalnonsense.net.


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