# Computer does not start. Amazing discovery why.



## Artas1984 (Jul 4, 2013)

Yesterday i was assembling my parts into Thermaltake Element V Black Edition case.

After the assembly the computer did not start. A quick power surge, the fans spun for a second, and then just silence. There were no error indicators on the system board like bad dram_led and the stand by lights were on. The same system was running just fine in my previous Chieftek case that same morning, so the first thought was "something is wrong with the Thermaltake case". 
I have disconnected all the sata devices, all fans, controllers, cables from ports as well as from the system panel connector and turned the computer on with the button on the motherboard itself, but it did not start - a quick power surge with fans spinning just for a moment and then shutting down. 
After this i have removed the computer parts from the case and placed them bare on the table, turning the computer on with the integrated power button in the motherboard - it worked.

After this i understood that the case itself somehow prevents the computer from starting. Cursed case? The only logic conclusion came to mind - the computer was shortcuting with the case and i had to find out why. The answer did not take long to figure out...

First of all, place only those hexagonal screws on the case, those will be needed for mounting the motherboard. Do not attach unnecessary hexagonal screws for microATX, BTX and other formats of motherboards if you won't be placing those motherboards.

Second, attach an antistatic sheet between the case and the motherboard, so that no part of the case touches the motherboard.

These 2 key features were the problem solvers. This is how it should be done:





And this is how it looks after:


----------



## tacosRcool (Jul 4, 2013)

Looks a bit tacky


----------



## jagjitnatt (Jul 4, 2013)

It is a very common issue with computers. Faced it 100s of times. 

The best thing to do is to place the plastic washer between the screws, most cases come with them. And its not just cases shorting the motherboard, sometimes too much application of thermal paste, specially on a delidded CPU, or on a laptop CPU also results in similar behaviour, that one is really tough to diagnose.


----------



## vega22 (Jul 4, 2013)

my money is on you not fitting the 8 pin 12v cpu power correctly and it was only when you removed it from the case and rebuilt it on the box it went in all the way again.

if it was anything on the mobo tray which was causing a short you would still see it now, poking up into the foam sheet you have across it.


----------



## Artas1984 (Jul 4, 2013)

marsey99 said:


> my money is on you not fitting the 8 pin 12v cpu power correctly



Wrong. The 8 pin EPS 12V CPU cable had been secured at all times as well as the 24 pin MB cable..

The motherboard has many protruding metal pieces. One of those pieces, probably the bottom part of condenser, was touching an unnecessary hexagonal screw. The antistatic sheet is just an additional precaution.


----------



## NdMk2o1o (Jul 4, 2013)

There's absolutely no need for the antistatic sheet in between if you use spacers, the issue was likely a spacer in the wrong place as you mentioned shorting the board, I've had this issue once, though it's user error and normally fairly easy not to repeat once you have done it once as it will likely have taken a couple of hours of head scratching and swearing before you figure out what the issue was the first time


----------



## RCoon (Jul 4, 2013)

Why such a good cooler on a processor that isnt for overclocking?
Also if your case is shorting the MoBo then there is a fault with the case structure, because those standoffs should single handedly do what that sheet of fluff is doing right now.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Jul 4, 2013)

Why would you put in more standoffs than your motherboard has holes for?

More, is not better, in this case.

Most case makers give you one or two extras for spares or different configurations.


----------



## NdMk2o1o (Jul 4, 2013)

jsfitz54 said:


> Why would you put in more standoffs than your motherboard has holes for?
> 
> More, is not better, in this case.
> 
> Most case makers give you one or two extras for spares or different configurations.



Not more than your case has  in the holes that are also in the case for other size motherboards


----------



## erixx (Jul 4, 2013)

Many shops place those antistatic sheets there, just to prevent returning clients. i don't like it in my builds, but, hey it works.


----------



## Artas1984 (Jul 4, 2013)

NdMk2o1o said:


> There's absolutely no need for the antistatic sheet in between if you use spacers, the issue was likely a spacer in the wrong place as you mentioned shorting the board



Aha.



RCoon said:


> Also if your case is shorting the MoBo then there is a fault with the case structure, because those standoffs should single handedly do what that sheet of fluff is doing right now.



The corner of the empty backplate space is also bend 1 mm inwards and can touch the MB if pressed enough, that is why i took no risk and attached that anti-static sheet, but as i have said, the main problem was the additional hexagonal screw touching the bottom of the condenser. Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).



jsfitz54 said:


> Why would you put in more standoffs than your motherboard has holes for?



Because it looks cool. A case fully filled with standoffs is ready for any type of MB. Unfortunately this can cause shortcuts as in my case.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2013)

I imagine that anti-static Styrofoam like material could create heating issues--especially on the backside of the CPU.  I would not recommend that.


----------



## RCoon (Jul 4, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).



Your case has serious grounding issues then. If you still feel the electricity despite that antistatic sheet, you have worse problems.


----------



## Raw (Jul 4, 2013)

*I don't think so... not for me anyhow.*

If the pc industry (ie: mfgs.) thought using anti-static sheets was a good idea it would have done it a long time ago.

Not only does it not look cool, IMO it's ugly and it is a *FIRE HAZARD.*
Has anyone ever seen electronics go bad? Usually there is heat involved when they do.
Good luck with that.
There's something else going on in there that needs to be corrected regarding a short.
Fix it the right way before someone gets hurt.

Originally Posted by Artas1984  
Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).

Sounds like possibly the electric service in your house is not grounded correctly if you have the pc turned off and the wall plug connected. Something's back feeding power, however slight, through that power line. Disconnect it and see what happens. If you still have juice, it probably is a leaking capacator in the PSU itself.


----------



## erocker (Jul 4, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> First of all, place only those hexagonal screws on the case, those will be needed for mounting the motherboard. Do not attach unnecessary hexagonal screws for microATX, BTX and other formats of motherboards if you won't be placing those motherboards.


That's computer building 101. A standoff making contact with a motherboard component is.. well.. bad.

[/quote]Second, attach an antistatic sheet between the case and the motherboard, so that no part of the case touches the motherboard.[/quote]

No part of the case should be touching the motherboard if it is installed correctly. It might be a decent "quick fix" while waiting for a non-defective case... if that is the case.


----------



## mjdart (Jul 5, 2013)

Just put a replacement motherboard and no nothing on power up, it's an old Alienware tower (2005) but the replacement motherboard came with an Intel P4 3.8GHz and it's watercooled. Was interested to see how much I could overclock it. Now that I see it could be the mobo grounded (I thought it was a bad board) I may go back and play with that old rig and get it running.


----------



## btarunr (Jul 5, 2013)

Foam sheet could have air-pockets that trap heat. Not recommended. Besides, it doesn't have any anti-static properties. The plastic pouch your motherboard came in, has it. The foam sheet is added only for cushioning, and for preventing sharp solder points from tearing into the anti-static bag and cardboard box.


----------



## Jetster (Jul 5, 2013)

btarunr said:


> Foam sheet could have air-pockets that trap heat. Not recommended. Besides, it doesn't have any anti-static properties. The plastic pouch your motherboard came in, has it. The foam sheet is added only for cushioning, and for preventing sharp solder points from tearing into the anti-static bag and cardboard box.



It will also melt when it gets hot


----------



## btarunr (Jul 5, 2013)

Jetster said:


> It will also melt when it gets hot



I doubt if 100°C is enough to melt it. This same material is used for insulation in the refrigeration and heating industry. The backside of a CPU socket doesn't get that hot.


----------



## vega22 (Jul 5, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> Wrong. The 8 pin EPS 12V CPU cable had been secured at all times as well as the 24 pin MB cable..
> 
> The motherboard has many protruding metal pieces. One of those pieces, probably the bottom part of condenser, was touching an unnecessary hexagonal screw. The antistatic sheet is just an additional precaution.



so your mobo has a condenser?

is it phase cooled?

so you fitted too many stand offs is what you are saying?

only thats an obvious cause of shorts right there...


----------



## de.das.dude (Jul 5, 2013)

something is short circuiting.
it the motherboard backside contacts must have touched the extra un used mounting screws. not amazing discovery 

the anti static has no part to play as the mother board is grounded through the mounting screws.


gah erocker beat me to it again.


----------



## BiggieShady (Jul 5, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> Even now, when the computer is turned off, but the PSU cable is attached, i can feel weak voltage ripping through my arm if i touch the case metal with my skin surface (not palms).



If that's the case, make sure you are using grounded outlet. This is a must.


----------



## Artas1984 (Jul 10, 2013)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I imagine that anti-static Styrofoam like material could create heating issues--especially on the backside of the CPU.  I would not recommend that.





btarunr said:


> Foam sheet could have air-pockets that trap heat. Not recommended. Besides, it doesn't have any anti-static properties. The plastic pouch your motherboard came in, has it. The foam sheet is added only for cushioning, and for preventing sharp solder points from tearing into the anti-static bag and cardboard box.



Nonsense. There is no heat accumulating around my CPU. It's pretty well vented. And the foam sheet does have anti-static properties.


----------



## RCoon (Jul 10, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> Nonsense. There is no heat accumulating around my CPU. It's pretty well vented.



Then wrap your entire motherboard with the stuff. See what happens to a "well vented" CPU when insulators are crammed in close proximity.

Dont fill your case with standoffs you dont need.
Dont use a case that is faulty (bent) and may touch the Motherboard when you press it. OR UNBEND IT.
Dont use insulators around expensive hot components.
Dont forget to ground the damn case if you can feel electricity when you touch it.


----------



## Artas1984 (Jul 10, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Then wrap your entire motherboard with the stuff. See what happens to a "well vented" CPU when insulators are crammed in close proximity.



I am not an idiot, but you make a pretty big shot out of yourself. As if i do not understand such simple *THIGNS* as that...

Of course the foam prevents the heat from dissipating backwards. However, the effect is so minimal that it does not make a difference.

Next time don't  try so sound like a smart ass.



RCoon said:


> Why such a good cooler on a processor that isnt for overclocking?



My, it does bother you that i put a mid range performance CPU with the top of the line cooler. Perhaps i just struck a good deal for that cooler. Besides, every CPU is overclock-able with the right MB.


----------



## RCoon (Jul 10, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> I am not an idiot



Puts too many standoffs in case
Puts insulator behind hot components
Fails to realise something is wrong when you can feel electricity to the touch on case

AMAZING DISCOVERY


----------



## Artas1984 (Jul 10, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Puts too many standoffs in case
> Puts insulator behind hot components
> Fails to realise something is wrong when you can feel electricity to the touch on case
> 
> AMAZING DISCOVERY



1) I always did put all possible stad-offs, never had problems before.

2) As i said, it does not cause me any heat problems, because i have a temperature reader. 

3) I realized that ASAP and knew that it needs better grounding. I had this in some of the previous builds.

Now move along and don't annoy me. You start to sound like a forum troll.


----------



## RCoon (Jul 10, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> 1) I always did put all possible stad-offs, never had problems before.
> 
> 2) As i said, it does not cause me any heat problems, because i have a temperature reader.
> 
> ...



Also as far as I'm aware, that sheet is not anti-static. Get a hold of it between two hands and rub them together. You will probably find it is fully capable of generating and conducting static.

Show me one other PC where this "antistatic sheet" is required for it to work properly. I'll bet you cant.


----------



## Artas1984 (Jul 10, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Show me one other PC where this "antistatic sheet" is required for it to work properly. I'll bet you cant.



Of course not. Was not my intention. And don't need to.
Now let me explain something about that sheet. As i have said, i felt weak voltage ripping through my arm when i touched the case. That is why i put an non conductive material between the case and the MB, so that there would be no risk of a protruding case edge (1 mm) touching the MB. 

Think of the sheet not as of anti-static, rather thaN as of non conductive material first, anti-static second. However, last time i checked, the foam is a material that does not generate static, so i think it is safe.


----------



## RCoon (Jul 10, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> a protruding case edge (1 mm) touching the MB.



Fix/Return your case, then there is no need for any of this


----------



## Artas1984 (Aug 2, 2013)

RCoon said:


> Fix/Return your case, then there is no need for any of this



This sort of voltage ripping i felt with many different cases, made of steel before (Thermaltake Armor, Antec 1200). The case alone is not the problem. Strange, the power plug does have a ground unit, but i still have grounding problems, can't explain why is this happening...


----------



## BiggieShady (Aug 2, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> This sort of voltage ripping i felt with many different cases, made of steel before (Thermaltake Armor, Antec 1200). The case alone is not the problem. Strange, the power plug does have a ground unit, but i still have grounding problems, can't explain why is this happening...



There can be number of reasons with grounding:

Wall outlet is not grounded
Wall outlet has ground but it's not connected properly
PSU has grounding issues - leaking current to its casing
Unwanted contacts from components to the case
If you had same experience with different cases on the same outlet, it's not the case.
It is the wall outlet or the PSU. I suspect the wall outlet.


----------



## Vario (Aug 3, 2013)

Wall outlet is certainly the simplest to test, try a friends outlet.


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Aug 3, 2013)

Last time I had a mysterious issue like this it turned out a fan or led wire built into the case was exposed and touching the side panel, it was shorting out the whole case.


----------



## GLD (Aug 3, 2013)

To be clear...DO NOT put any EXTRA standoffs BENEATH the motherboard. Only put them in the positions that the motherboard has holes for. I have left standoffs in cases that are not near the board, like pulling an atx and then putting in a matx. Those standoffs will not be a problem. 

ALWAYS count the # off mounting holes on a board and place that # of standoffs in their proper location. Hold the board in the case over the standoffs if you have to visually insure alignment. 

Never once have I ever put the plastic sheet of fluff in a build. If the mfg. wanted that they would have pre cut and aligned holes in it for you. I would remove it asap, for any number of reasons.


----------



## Arctucas (Aug 4, 2013)

Use nylon standoffs, no chance of shorting the board.

Make sure the PSU, monitor, and any other components that plug into a wall receptacle outlet are connect to the same receptacle (through an outlet strip if necessary) and that the receptacle is properly wired.


----------



## Mussels (Aug 4, 2013)

marsey99 said:


> my money is on you not fitting the 8 pin 12v cpu power correctly and it was only when you removed it from the case and rebuilt it on the box it went in all the way again.
> 
> if it was anything on the mobo tray which was causing a short you would still see it now, poking up into the foam sheet you have across it.





Artas1984 said:


> Wrong. The 8 pin EPS 12V CPU cable had been secured at all times as well as the 24 pin MB cable..
> 
> The motherboard has many protruding metal pieces. One of those pieces, probably the bottom part of condenser, was touching an unnecessary hexagonal screw. The antistatic sheet is just an additional precaution.




i'm with marsey. sounds like something wasnt connected properly. systems do that quick power on and power off under very specific cirumstances - a true short wouldnt do that.


----------



## micropage7 (Aug 4, 2013)

have you tried to put your board off from case and try it
does it run normally


----------



## Vario (Aug 4, 2013)

Is the power supply securely screwed in at the back? Does your house have bad grounds?


----------



## Artas1984 (Aug 31, 2013)

I have found out that my whole apartment has grounding issues. I can feel weak voltage even when i wash hands with bruised finger skin  or touch a gas hose with the softest part of the body.. 

The problem of the PC not starting was the unnecessary stadofs, but now, it seems, there are more serious problems.


----------



## MightyMission (Aug 31, 2013)

touched a gas hose with softest part of the body? you trollin', right?


----------



## SaiZo (Aug 31, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> This sort of voltage ripping i felt with many different cases, made of steel before (Thermaltake Armor, Antec 1200). The case alone is not the problem. Strange, the power plug does have a ground unit, but i still have grounding problems, can't explain why is this happening...



I don't know how you connect your PSU, if it's directly to the mains (wall) or via an extension of some sort. I did have the similar issue,- when touching the case and there was power to the PSU. However, I did have it connected to an extension cord.

I do _not_ have a grounded wall connection. They are only available in the kitchen and the bathroom. But I do not have the problem any more.


Also, if you want to make sure there is no metal from the case touching the backside of the motherboard I suggest going with liquid isolation tape (PlastiDip is a good one).

If you don't know if it is ESD protective or if it's marked AirCap or similar - don't use it.
In my eyes it looks like ordinary packing material.


----------



## Vario (Aug 31, 2013)

MightyMission said:


> touched a gas hose with softest part of the body? you trollin', right?



I don't think your supposed to put the gas hose inside the human body's methane exhaust port.


----------



## Raw (Sep 1, 2013)

*Want to elaborate a little bit here*



Artas1984 said:


> I have found out that my whole apartment has grounding issues. I can feel weak voltage even when i wash hands with bruised finger skin  or touch a gas hose with the softest part of the body..
> 
> but now, it seems, there are more serious problems.




What... 'eh? Huh? OMG... a gas hose?


Gas and electricity = bad combo pal.
Very bad as in boom BOOM boom BOOM.

Come on pal, your pulling our leg here, no?
I sure hope so.


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 1, 2013)

Artas1984 said:


> My, it does bother you that i put a mid range performance CPU with the top of the line cooler. Perhaps i just struck a good deal for that cooler. Besides, every CPU is overclock-able with the right MB.



Clearly, otherwise he wouldn't ask. What is the point of spending money on a top of the line cooler when there is nothing to cool? 

Last time I felt static on my case it fried my ram, my PSU and some other parts within a few days (or is it the other way round?). You should pay more attention to these kind of static imo.


----------



## sneekypeet (Sep 2, 2013)

Let me see if I can help sort things out.

1. Anyone is free to discuss anything they want here and not get trolled for limited understanding of the product they are trying to use.

2. Does not need to be called names for what he puts forward in his information.

3. I thought members at TPU were helpful and did not "attack" members where their very well may be a language barrier (since OP is not from the US).

Please either try to help them understand their issues, and help to fix them, or go to another forum to get your 2 cents in and troll someone!


----------



## Frick (Sep 2, 2013)

Fourstaff said:


> Last time I felt static on my case it fried my ram, my PSU and some other parts within a few days (or is it the other way round?). You should pay more attention to these kind of static imo.



Static doesn't kill over time, it was something else related to bad power.

But yeah grounding issues are a bitch. Call the electrician.


----------



## _Zod_ (Sep 2, 2013)

Static isn't an issue if you have everything grounded properly. The OP's issue was that he shorted out the motherboard by putting in standoffs in places that would make contact with the traces and or solder joints on the PCB. 100% user error akin to putting each end of a paperclip into a wall outlet and wondering why the circuit breaker popped or house burned down.


----------



## Fourstaff (Sep 2, 2013)

Frick said:


> Static doesn't kill over time, it was something else related to bad power.
> 
> But yeah grounding issues are a bitch. Call the electrician.



Static doesn't but the fact that you have static means something is wrong, and usually related to grounding (and power) issues.


----------

