# Hot take: B550 is DOA for enthusiasts. Your thoughts?



## Assimilator (Jun 20, 2020)

The only features it has over X570 are (possibly, depending on the board) WiFi 6 and 2.5Gb LAN (and the lack of a chipset fan, if that really bothers you). Motherboard manufacturers are trying to sell B550 by claiming it has better VRMs and memory overclocking but let's face it, OC on Ryzen is pretty much non-existent and due to the Infinity Fabric wall there's no reason to want to run RAM any faster than DDR-4000, which pretty much every X570 board does already. And the VRM argument is mostly moot because (most) X570 boards, being flagship products, have strong VRMs anyway - unless you're on a 3900X/3950X it really isn't going to matter.

B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each. Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports, and only a handful come with a front USB-C header. And yet they're consistently priced around the same price, or even higher, than X570 boards with better feature sets. Heck, there are many B450 boards with superior IO connectivity!

In short, I don't see any reason why you'd want to choose B550 over X570. Supplies of X570 boards are somewhat restricted due to le COVID, but the B550 launch has effectively been a paper one (the boards are out of stock almost everywhere) for the same reason, so once again it's a moot point.

I also have a strong suspicion that we're going to see refreshed X570 boards, with all of B550's features and more, drop at the same time that Zen 3/Ryzen 4000 launches (still supposedly later this year). Those will certainly be pricier than the current crop of X570, but in terms of features they'll have it all.

I'll be sticking with my 3600X/X370 combo until the next socket from AMD, so I won't be affected, but for anyone putting together a new system in the near future, tell us: what are you going to choose, and why? Do you disagree with my opinion on B550, or not?

p.s. please try not to derail this thread with irrelevant BS about AMD's driver quality and such.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 20, 2020)

I think you went a bit too high on the RAM clocks, as 3800MHz is the peak on the currently available CPUs. Maybe we'll see 4000MHz come the XT or 4000-series APUs, but I doubt it.

DOA, nah, it'll sell, I just don't think anything over $160-180 will sell in any quantity, as those boards have way too many limiting factors.

The chipset really need two more PCIe lanes and four more USB 3.x ports to be "good enough" for those that want a decent alternative to the X570 though.

What disappointed me, is the lack of a solid mATX board based on the B550 chipset, as there are none based on X570.
*Edit:* Turns out MSI actually has an ok mATX board, but I really loathe their current UEFI design... It's even priced pretty fairly at $170.





						MSI MAG B550M MORTAR WIFI AMD AM4 DDR4 CF Lightning Gen 4 M.2 USB 3.2 Gen 2 HDMI WiFi6 mATX Gaming Motherboard
					

Powered by AMD Ryzen AM4 processors, the MSI MAG B550M MORTAR WiFi inspired by the military armor design, tuned for better performance by Core boost, DDR4 Boost, WiFi 6, Lightning Gen 4 M.2 with M.2 Shied, 2oz copper PCB




					www.msi.com


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## dont whant to set it"' (Jun 20, 2020)

I oscilated between an b450 Chipset and a b350 one , just to settle for the later on this build matx footprint and all that , although serious considerations I gave to the top of the line x570 Chipset only to be disappointed by the lack of extra pci-e lanes be it gen. 3 or 4 x8 more than the full 16 lanes .
X570 boards are in stock here and there, all be it not a plethora off them, still one can be had vas the paper launched b550 ones although I expect them to see them in stock soon because otherwise the point of the paper launch would be moot at best , PR stunt not quite. 2cents out.over.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 20, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I think you went a bit too high on the RAM clocks, as 3800MHz is the peak on the currently available CPUs. Maybe we'll see 4000MHz come the XT or 4000-series APUs, but I doubt it.
> 
> DOA, nah, it'll sell, I just don't think anything over $160-180 will sell in any quantity, as those boards have way too many limiting factors.
> 
> ...



Both Mortars are a big step up from their B450 predecessors, but the memory support is pretty lacking with dual rank sticks topping out at 3733, probably from the 4-layer PCB in part. The Steel Legend mATX is decent in feature set but the heatsinks should have been a bit bigger. The TUF has memory support between the MSI and ASRock models. I'm just confused as to why MSI decided to go above and beyond with 60A smart power stages on the Mortar, yet didn't give it a 6-layer PCB and make it a smaller Tomahawk.

All of them are pretty well-featured. All of them have 8 or more doubled phases for Vcore with 50A DrMOS or 60A SPS. As to the "overclocking" argument, you don't need to be OC'ing a 3950X to run into thermal or power limit issues on shitty Sinopower/Onsemi/even worse discrete MOSFETs with not enough heatsink mass and not enough phases. B450 mATX boards have proven that many times over.

The only mATX board for X570 is the Pro4, which we all know is hot garbage that now sells for more $$ than any of the mATX boards.

I mean, if only looking at higher end ATX boards like all reviewers seem to be doing, then sure, B550 doesn't make a lot of sense. But there's a lot going on here at lower segments that's better than has previously been on any AM4 chipset.


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## thebluebumblebee (Jun 20, 2020)

They're "B" boards.  They're not supposed to replace the X570's.


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## DemonicRyzen666 (Jun 20, 2020)

I don't think the word enthusiast, and B550 where not truly ment to be together. Not that I don't believe you can't have an enthusiast B550. It fits the bill for most people without the chipset fan, that everyone complains about.

Ryzen's ram problem has to do with chiplet's fighting over ram access. It might even go down to Core complexes Fighting for it. Since there seems to be only one link to the memory controller for each chiplet. High ram speeds in certain games show gains, but unless you can out weigh the 6-9ns bump in latency beyond 3800mhz. Meaning of you get 60GB/s @ 3800mhz and you go higher in the ram say 4200mhz you need to make up for the bump in ns in bandwidth with at minimum 66GB/s-70GB/s or much higher. Well at least in theory. Threadripper bandwidth with out Numa is actually lower on 3000 series then 2000 series. I've seen the 2000 Threadripper series yet up to 144GB/s vs something like 80-100GB/s on the 3000 Threadripper

As for overclocking I've done but of my own research it seems Threadripper 3960x (4.4ghz-4.5ghz) out clock 3950x (4.2ghz-4.3ghz) by 100mhz-200mHz on all cores. With PB, PBO, auto-overclock either you get a lower single core score with all core overclock or just use one of those three with an offset it seems. If perhaps we had more control over how far each state could be changed it could be better.

I really personally hate seeing that Crossfire and SLI dead. As mGPU is going no where because developers would rather not waste the time in implementing it, and just cash in on the game. Single card is basically all anyone is recommended for gaming anymore.

As for the m.2 drives People rarely RAID them 0 or better anyways.

If you think B550 an x570 have had IO connectivity check TRX40 they are by far the worst for IO possible choices. Yet the TRX40 is suppose to be just an x570 chipset.


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## Gmr_Chick (Jun 21, 2020)

Just going to add my 2 cents here and say I think the biggest issue with B550 boards compared to the enthusiast X570 boards (excluding the MSI Godlike and AORUS Extreme from my point due to the fact that they're both stupid-expensive for MSDT; I've seen Threadripper boards cheaper than them, and that's HEDT!) is the price. I'm sorry, but there's something not quite right when you see the "mainstream" B550 AORUS Master and ASrock B550 Taichi going for MORE than what my X370 Crosshair VI Hero ($230, got it on sale) was going for at the time -- at $280 and $300 respectively!  At those prices, you may as well get an X570 board for about the same price.

So yeah, I definitely think prices are one of B550's biggest fails. Going to end my opinion piece here.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 21, 2020)

Both the people I did systems for this month went from waiting to B550 to going X570 due to the shit pricing but I think us a consumers need to get use to the fact the X570 and Z490 is the new pricing standard for mainstream boards. I don't think anyone should be surprised by B550 pricing as each new release for the last couple years has gotten more expensive in the diy pc space.

I also think AMD is trying to separate itself from the budget brand moniker it has held for the majority of the last decade. They have the more expensive consumer Hedt platform (if you don't count Xeon), the most expensive mainstream CPU the 3950X, all that is left is GPU but I don't see them beating Nvidia anytime soon so that will likely have wait a couple more generations assuming they keep up their success in their other divisions.

I personally gravitate towards The $350-500 motherboards and have so since Z390 for my personal systems so B550 was never on my radar but I do a lot of budget systems for people with less than $1000 for a complete system so the pricing kinda sucks for them.


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## INSTG8R (Jun 21, 2020)

Just bought an X570 so honestly was never on my radar considering the pricing I’ve seen and availability.


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## John Naylor (Jun 21, 2020)

I have never given a though to any of the "lesser" chipsets .  Forgetting what the chipsets offers with regard to PCI Lanes and other advantages. the chipsets were almost always [paires with sunstandard audio and LAN subsystems, such that by the time you found a board with a decent gamng audio subsystem, you could fund the higher level chipset boards at the same price.    B550 seems to be no exception:

 ASUS PRIME B550M-A (WI-FI) @ $150

1.  If you are serious about gaming, you are npt using WiFi unless limited by rental agreeemnt or some outside requirement.
2.  ALC 887
3.  Realtek LAN 

The MSI X570 pro is about the same proce, has ALC 1220 ... still a Realtek LAN subsystem , but again ... why bother, the value just isn't there.


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## Cranky5150 (Jun 21, 2020)

Yeah this chipset was dead at launch..It arrived way to late to the party, and was overpriced from the beginning.


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## INSTG8R (Jun 21, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> I have never given a though to any of the "lesser" chipsets .  Forgetting what the chipsets offers with regard to PCI Lanes and other advantages. the chipsets were almost always [paires with sunstandard audio and LAN subsystems, such that by the time you found a board with a decent gamng audio subsystem, you could fund the higher level chipset boards at the same price.    B550 seems to be no exception:
> 
> ASUS PRIME B550M-A (WI-FI) @ $150
> 
> ...


I don’t often go with your posts but this is as short and sweet and factual!


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## newtekie1 (Jun 21, 2020)

thebluebumblebee said:


> They're "B" boards.  They're not supposed to replace the X570's.



B for budget.

I think we are seeing inflated priced due to them being new and Covid. Once the initial launch hype settles down they should fall into place taking over for the B450 boards.  They'll be good value, offering everything most people will need.  Most of the Ryzen systems I've built have been B450(or B350 before that) because there really wasn't any reason to go with a more expensive X470(or X370).


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## thesmokingman (Jun 21, 2020)

Cranky5150 said:


> Yeah this chipset was dead at launch..It arrived way to late to the party, and was overpriced from the beginning.



Pay more for less...


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 21, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> 3.  Realtek LAN


No need to knock Realtek these days, it was a very long time since their Ethernet controllers were crap.
If anything, Intel should be getting crap now for their poor 2.5Gbps implementation that meant it wasn't compatible with all switch ICs. They claim to have fixed it, but do we really know that for a fact?
Realtek didn't have any of those issues with their 2.5Gbps implementation.


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## enxo218 (Jun 21, 2020)

I always thought that it was rather obvious if observed from manufacturers perspective ie amd has no competition right now (features, performance and price) not even on popularity so by default a significant margin of the market in cpu is currently monopolised and board makers tried to leverage obscene prices on consumers but it turned them off x570, however by making the b550 near identical in specs and slightly price the buyer will opt to pull the trigger on x570 rationalising the small price difference as irrelevant and emboldened by the concept of future proofing (manufacturer and amd willingness to support bios updates has been a consistent recurring issue with zen and may play a role here)

personally I'm still mulling x470 but the main reasons I hadn't done so sooner were memory compatability and availability in my region fears and os support I hate windows 10 (I wonder if distros have matured and stabilised for new hardware I use manjaro currently)


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 21, 2020)

B550 prices will come down as lower end models debut but apparently there's a limited supply of chips so all the AIBs are pushing them out in premium products with lots of added on features not native to the chipset (like wifi).  B550 was never meant to compete with X570.


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## Metroid (Jun 21, 2020)

I said this 2 weeks ago, b550 was born dead because it came without pcie 4.0 storage and that will be very important in few months and price is close to x570.


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## thebluebumblebee (Jun 21, 2020)

Metroid said:


> because it came without pcie 4.0 storage


Huh?


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## Metroid (Jun 21, 2020)

thebluebumblebee said:


> Huh?











						AMD Chipset Comparison: B550 Specs vs. X570, B450, X370, & Zen 3 Support (2020)
					

This includes the intent of the 500-series chipsets to support Zen 3 architecture (reminder: that’s not the same as Ryzen 4000 mobile, nor is it the same as Ryzen 3000 desktop), while the existing B450 and X470 boards are left to cap-out at Ryzen 3000 series (Zen 2) parts. -




					www.gamersnexus.net
				





ChipsetX570B550


Chipset LinkPCIe 4.0 x4PCIe 3.0 x4


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## thebluebumblebee (Jun 21, 2020)

> While the B550 chipset is PCIe 3.0 only, B550 motherboards support PCIe 4.0 from the CPU to the primary PCIe slot as well as the primary M.2 slot (dependent on a PCIe 4.0 ready CPU).


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## HD64G (Jun 21, 2020)

B550 will sell for many people that  do not want chipset fan (X570) and want support out of the box for Zen3. That is a fair amount of people in that category me thinks. It would have sold much more if it was in the market earlier but it isn't a DOA product by any means imho.


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## Metroid (Jun 21, 2020)

You see that is still in debate if it really supports or will support in the bios, till we get a pcie 4 m2 we are never sure and even if it supports, will be just the primary m2, storage wise x570 is a better deal and price wise not much, only downside is that macabre fan.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 21, 2020)

HD64G said:


> B550 will sell for many people that  do not want chipset fan (X570) and want support out of the box for Zen3. That is a fair amount of people in that category me thinks. It would have sold much more if it was in the market earlier but it isn't a DOA product by any means imho.


Describes me.  I had a chipset fan back with the NVIDIA nForce 4 Ultra and ugh it was a PITE (Pain In The Ear).  I refuse to buy another actively cooled chipset.


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## INSTG8R (Jun 21, 2020)

Metroid said:


> You see that is still in debate if it really supports or will support in the bios, till we get a pcie 4 m2 we are never sure and even if it supports, will be just the primary m2, storage wise x570 is a better deal and price wise not much, only downside is that macabre fan.


See I “almost“ bought a Gen4 SSD(MX500) but ended up going Gen3(970 Evo Plus) because despite being just Gen 3 it’s still  faster across the  board except in reads. So while I can make use of Gen4 it doesn’t actually benefit me in  the end. Nor will my 5700XT benefit from a  Gen4 slot. Nice to have but offers no ”extras value” or was part of my purchase decision(okay it was until I searched for an M2)


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## Hyderz (Jun 21, 2020)

i think the b550 motherboard will remain a good option and it all comes down to the price. 
For somebody considering buying a new system they might think well there are some of the features on x570 on the b550 and they might not even that bothered with x570 due to a higher price.
With the price difference they could use it for more/better ram, bigger capacity ssd, better gpu

if money was tight, it will be a serious consideration.


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## EarthDog (Jun 21, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> In short, I don't see any reason why you'd want to choose B550 over X570.


Flr those who know its single gpu 1/2 m.2 users who don't quite need all the bells and whistles of x570 and wants to save a few bucks while having better than b450 vrms (on average).


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 21, 2020)

HD64G said:


> B550 will sell for many people that  do not want chipset fan (X570) and want support out of the box for Zen3. That is a fair amount of people in that category me thinks. It would have sold much more if it was in the market earlier but it isn't a DOA product by any means imho.


Uhm, I don't remember AMD promising out of the box support for Zen 3. I think you've read something into this that was never promised.
What AMD promised, was that there will be Zen 3 support, but that will almost guaranteed require a UEFI update.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Describes me.  I had a chipset fan back with the NVIDIA nForce 4 Ultra and ugh it was a PITE (Pain In The Ear).  I refuse to buy another actively cooled chipset.


I can't say I have ever heard the fan on my board. YMMV.


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## xrror (Jun 21, 2020)

My biggest issue with B550 is it still feels like a more expensive re-warmed B450... which itself just seemed like a newer stepping of B350.
It also didn't help AMD's arguement back when B450 was a brand new chipset when people were able to crossflash B350 boards with B450 firmware (short version - not worth the effort / minimal perf difference + peripheral chips / temp fan control broken).

It'd be interesting to see comparisons of die photos between B450/B550a and B550 to see if this is the case (again).
It's not that I mind them re-using old designs it's that I don't like paying more for the same old design + it makes certain chipset limitations really stand out as market segmentation vs. genuine limitations.

As for the original thread my goto was B450 (though they are getting expensive now???) or just the cheapest X570 (Both AsRock and MSI have X570 starting at $160) because stupidly B550 seems determined to start at $190+.

Though one big caveat for me (but probably not you all) is that 5xx boards don't officially support old Ryzen 1xxx chips (our group has a few of those bouncing around - which are useful as "placeholder" processors if they want to upgrade a few parts at a time and/or are waiting to see what Ryzen 4000 does - either upgrade to it or see if 3xxx gets cheaper, etc).

EDIT ADD: Just wanted to clarify I'm not against getting a high end mobo, it's just with Ryzen it doesn't really make much difference as far as overclocking, which is what I care about.


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## Apocalypsee (Jun 21, 2020)

There is no bad product, just bad price.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 21, 2020)

xrror said:


> My biggest issue with B550 is it still feels like a more expensive re-warmed B450... which itself just seemed like a newer stepping of B350.
> It also didn't help AMD's arguement back when B450 was a brand new chipset when people were able to crossflash B350 boards with B450 firmware (short version - not worth the effort / minimal perf difference + peripheral chips / temp fan control broken).
> 
> It'd be interesting to see comparisons of die photos between B450/B550a and B550 to see if this is the case (again).
> ...


There are obviously similarities, but the older chipsets and the B550 are NOT the same. The key difference is the move from PCIe 2.0 to PCIe 3.0 and it's quite significant. Then there's support for Crossfire, not that I think that really matters. The rest, is indeed mostly the same, as the additional USB port support, is hardly significant.

This is obviously a market segmentation thing, but AMD should really, imho, added a couple of extra PCIe lanes to the spec to make "competitive" vs. Intel's B360, as in some ways it's a more direct competitor to the H310, at least in terms of PCIe lane count.

I guess one way to look at it, is that the X570 is too high-end for a consumer platform, at least vs. what Intel has done so far, whereas the B550 is a bit too low-end to be a mid-range chipset.

B550 boards don't start at $190. The cheapest available board in Sweden right now seems to be $158, but that includes 25% VAT/sales tax, so that would be around $126 without tax. There are seven cheaper models that are not in stock. The same retailer's cheapest X570 board is $180, or $144 without VAT/sales tax.








						För AMD-processor Moderkort
					

Kolla in För AMD-processor Moderkort hos Inet! Sveriges bästa datorbutik med det senaste för gaming- & teknikentusiaster.




					www.inet.se
				




Cheapest board available in Taiwan is the equivalent of $111 including 5% VAT/sales tax.





						PChome線上購物 -
					






					24h.pchome.com.tw


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## thebluebumblebee (Jun 21, 2020)

Ya know, AMD may have hurt themselves by making the B550 motherboards too capable, combined with AMD's commitment to all, well, mostly anyway, overclocking features available on all motherboards.  If there's no real reason to purchase an "X" motherboard, the sales of the "X" motherboards will drop, which will push the prices of those "X" motherboards up, since there will be fewer sales to amortize the development costs.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 21, 2020)

thebluebumblebee said:


> Ya know, AMD may have hurt themselves by making the B550 motherboards too capable, combined with AMD's commitment to all, well, mostly anyway, overclocking features available on all motherboards.  If there's no real reason to purchase an "X" motherboard, the sales of the "X" motherboards will drop, which will push the prices of those "X" motherboards up, since there will be fewer sales to amortize the development costs.


AMD doesn't sell motherboards, but whatever...
Also, just because Intel has arbitrary limitations on their multitude of chipsets, why should AMD when they technically only offer three chipset per generation?


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## xrror (Jun 21, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> The ky difference is the move from PCIe 2.0 to PCIe 3.0 and it's quite significant.


Fair enough, I'd forgotten about that change.

As far as mobo pricing yea regional differences will make a huge difference. I was just talking from my limited midwestern U.S. perspective and a quick look at the big e-tailers.

Right now it seems like things like motherboards and PSU's here are in a big flux, not sure why. It also doesn't help that at least for this area, Amazon still has screwy shipping where some things won't show up until like a month later due to "COVID prioritization" which makes them a non-option if you don't want to take the gamble of them canceling your order _after_ you wait 3 weeks for it.

On the other hand, right now DDR4 memory is dirt cheap in the U.S. market. You can get actual decent kits (16GB 3600 CAS16) for like $70 right now which is nuts.


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## erocker (Jun 21, 2020)

I don't consider low/mid tier motherboards to be for "enthusiasts".


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## xrror (Jun 21, 2020)

erocker said:


> I don't consider low/mid tier motherboards to be for "enthusiasts".


Somebody missed out on the era of soldering volt-mods to crappy ECS/PCChips mobos apparently


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## HD64G (Jun 21, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Uhm, I don't remember AMD promising out of the box support for Zen 3. I think you've read something into this that was never promised.
> What AMD promised, was that there will be Zen 3 support, but that will almost guaranteed require a UEFI update.


My mistake. I meant official support for Zen3 from day 1 without delayed beta UEFI versions.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 21, 2020)

xrror said:


> Fair enough, I'd forgotten about that change.
> 
> As far as mobo pricing yea regional differences will make a huge difference. I was just talking from my limited midwestern U.S. perspective and a quick look at the big e-tailers.
> 
> ...


Have you looked at the cost/availability of web cams recently? Either you can't get one, or they cost a small fortune.

Also, those boards seem quite over priced.


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## erocker (Jun 22, 2020)

xrror said:


> Somebody missed out on the era of soldering volt-mods to crappy ECS/PCChips mobos apparently


That is not this era.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 22, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> trying to sell B550 by claiming it has better VRMs


Agree


Assimilator said:


> memory overclocking


For Matisse also agree, however I would expect Renoir and Vermeer to make better use of faster memory speeds.


Assimilator said:


> B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each.


Most people don't need/use more than a GPU and a SSD, most people don't use a capture card or other PCIe slot, and most people don't run more than one or two drives (often they will be holdovers from previous builds as well so at best gen 3 drives and likely SATA). Also PCIe 4.0 SSDs are a waste of money at the moment IMHO.


Assimilator said:


> Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports


This is probably one of my biggest gripes about B550 (and Z490 tbh)... Though it seems like a common theme on most modern platforms unless you are willing to shell out over $400...


xrror said:


> B550 seems determined to start at $190+.


This is the other sticking point for me on B550, my current board is a very well rounded board for my daily use and I got it for €110... There's basically no B550 or other AM4 board that is a substantial upgrade for me unless I spend well over $200.

Overall I think B550 has it's place but I don't think it has a place for me... I will likely be going for a Zen 3 or Rocket lake, current X570 and B550 board offerings don't actually interest me much at all, so I would likely either slot a Zen 3 part into my current X470 board, or look for something like a Z490/590 Apex/Hero/Dark mostly for shits and giggles...


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## Assimilator (Jun 22, 2020)

erocker said:


> I don't consider low/mid tier motherboards to be for "enthusiasts".



That's one of the points I intended to make, although likely it got lost in my ramblings: many of these B550 boards are priced, and (over-)engineered, to look like enthusiast boards. But B550 isn't (intended to be) an enthusiast chipset, it just so happens that it's not launching alongside a companion enthusiast chipset, so motherboard manufacturers are going ham, and it seems that consumers are eating it up hook line and sinker. It doesn't bode well for the prices of future "mid-range" boards.

It doesn't help that you have influential figures like Buildzoid doing multiple videos analyzing B550 VRMs and complaining it has less connectivity than X570. WAY TO MISS THE POINT DUDE.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 22, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> B550 isn't (intended to be) an enthusiast chipset


I kinda disagree on this, IMO there's no reason to exclude B550 boards from having really high end features for both "normal" and extreme OCing... I'd love to see a priced down Crosshair 2-dimm board or a return to MSI's old Mpower line of budget XOCing boards.

The real problem for me is that board vendors are making you pay more for useful features that cost them very little to implement (stuff like USB ports and other sensible I/O, and basic troubleshooting stuff like clear CMOS buttons) by bundling them with a bunch of junk most people don't want or need: Rear I/O covers, RGB, mediocre but overengineered onboard audio, and absurdly overbuilt VRMs.


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## EarthDog (Jun 22, 2020)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> n Crosshair 2-dimm board or a return to MSI's old Mpower line of budget XOCing boards.


Those are enthusiast class boards... in particular the MPower.

B550 is not an enthusiast chipset.



Assimilator said:


> That's one of the points I intended to make, although likely it got lost in my ramblings: many of these B550 boards are priced, and (over-)engineered, to look like enthusiast boards. But B550 isn't (intended to be) an enthusiast chipset, it just so happens that it's not launching alongside a companion enthusiast chipset, so motherboard manufacturers are going ham, and it seems that consumers are eating it up hook line and sinker. It doesn't bode well for future "mid-range" boards.
> 
> It doesn't help that you have influential figures like Buildzoid doing multiple videos analyzing B550 VRMs and complaining it has less connectivity than X570. WAY TO MISS THE POINT DUDE.


The funny part is these boards are still expected to overclock the flagship enthusiast processor so they kind of have to be overbuilt.....or built properly. TPU only tested a 2700X on some boards, HWu (or someone) called them out on it and part of the reply was that nobody who's buying b450 is going to put a 3900x in it.... a poll was taken and an overwhelming majority expected that to happen and be OK for w/e board. So... in that light it makes sense.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 22, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Those are enthusiast class boards... in particular the MPower.
> 
> B550 is not an enthusiast chipset.


Does it make a difference for those kinds of boards whether they have a B550 or X570 chipset on them? Especially the MPower was intended as a low cost XOCing board, basically a XPower-lite... When you run that kind of board you really couldn't care less about having extra PCIe 4.0 m.2 slots, a few extra 10Gb/s USB ports (some of which are just upgraded from 5Gb/s), and 4 more SATA ports...

An enthusiast board doesn't need to have completely decked out I/O.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Jun 22, 2020)

too little for too much sums them up, ive nothing to take advantage ill be sticking to what ive got untill theres something better coming along that do not break the bank.


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## puma99dk| (Jun 22, 2020)

NVME SSD's with Gen4 speeds are nice and if the B550 chipset offered more than 1 lets say 2 or 3 the X570 wouldn't be what people would buy because SLi and Crossfire for the main user is dead specially in games.

No GPU really needs PCI-E 4.0 to run even the RTX 2080 Ti doesn't max out PCI-E 3.0 x8.


----------



## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 22, 2020)

Most users aren't going to use more than 1 PCI-E x16 nor are they going to use more than 1 NVMe.
For those people a b550 is for them.

If you want more get a cheap x570.

If you want a board for aesthetics spend more.

If you want a board to OC your 3600...etc
Don't bother this series pretty much comes at their limit.
 Just my opinion and my justification for buying a cheap x570 a few months ago..I might also add that I got my x570 cheaper than any b550's I've currently seen in stock.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 22, 2020)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Does it make a difference for those kinds of boards whether they have a B550 or X570 chipset on them? Especially the MPower was intended as a low cost XOCing board, basically a XPower-lite... When you run that kind of board you really couldn't care less about having extra PCIe 4.0 m.2 slots, a few extra 10Gb/s USB ports (some of which are just upgraded from 5Gb/s), and 4 more SATA ports...
> 
> An enthusiast board doesn't need to have completely decked out I/O.


Yes because that is what defines the two classes. MPower was always part of the enthusiast chipset ftr. It was never low cost. IIRC, the MPower was either 2nd or 3rd in line behind the XPower for cost? It was not a mainstream board by price or chipset bud. Sorry.

MPower is more like a track car (stripped some features for OC ability)... XPower was a fast luxury vehicle. MPower is, by all accounts, an enthusiast level board.



puma99dk| said:


> No GPU really needs PCI-E 4.0 to run even the RTX 2080 Ti doesn't max out PCI-E 3.0 x8.


It doesn't? Then why does it lose a couple % when dropping down to 3.0 x8?








						NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti PCI-Express Scaling
					

It takes a lot of bandwidth to support the fastest graphics card, especially one that can play anything at 4K 60 Hz, with an eye on 120 Hz. The GeForce RTX 2080 Ti could be the most bandwidth-heavy non-storage PCIe device ever built. PCI-Express gen 3.0 is facing its design limits.




					www.techpowerup.com
				



2-3%... while not significant, it certainly seems to take a hit, no?


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 22, 2020)

puma99dk| said:


> No GPU really needs PCI-E 4.0 to run even the RTX 2080 Ti doesn't max out PCI-E 3.0 x8.


Ah, but wait for the next gen of cards, they'll all need PCIe 4.0 x16 or the system won't boot


----------



## r.h.p (Jun 22, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> The only features it has over X570 are (possibly, depending on the board) WiFi 6 and 2.5Gb LAN (and the lack of a chipset fan, if that really bothers you). Motherboard manufacturers are trying to sell B550 by claiming it has better VRMs and memory overclocking but let's face it, OC on Ryzen is pretty much non-existent and due to the Infinity Fabric wall there's no reason to want to run RAM any faster than DDR-4000, which pretty much every X570 board does already. And the VRM argument is mostly moot because (most) X570 boards, being flagship products, have strong VRMs anyway - unless you're on a 3900X/3950X it really isn't going to matter.
> 
> B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each. Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports, and only a handful come with a front USB-C header. And yet they're consistently priced around the same price, or even higher, than X570 boards with better feature sets. Heck, there are many B450 boards with superior IO connectivity!
> 
> ...



i would only buy it for a cheap , backup or 1080p system .  Not to say its a bad chip , i would just wait or spend a bit more for x 570 .... uno?


----------



## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 22, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> MPower was always part of the enthusiast chipset ftr. It was never low cost. IIRC, the MPower was either 2nd or 3rd in line behind the XPower for cost?


Mpower could not have been on anything other than intel's enthusiast chipsets because after P68 intel disabled all useful OCing on all but Z series chipsets... And at least here in the Europe the Z97 MPower retailed for around half the price of the XPower...

Just because you want to get every last bit of performance OCing on your board doesn't mean you want to be able to run 4 PCIe 4.0 m.2 drives, 8 SATA drives, have 2 GPUs and a PCIe 4.0 add-in card... OCing features, VRM current capability (beyond a certain point), and extensive I/O options are separate features and the exclusion of one doesn't necessitate the exclusion of the others.


----------



## Assimilator (Jun 22, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> The funny part is these boards are still expected to overclock the flagship enthusiast processor so they kind of have to be overbuilt.....or built properly. TPU only tested a 2700X on some boards, HWu (or someone) called them out on it and part of the reply was that nobody who's buying b450 is going to put a 3900x in it.... a poll was taken and an overwhelming majority expected that to happen and be OK for w/e board. So... in that light it makes sense.



The overwhelming majority of people on an enthusiast forum should not be trusted to set the policy for midrange boards.

My personal opinion is that any CPU should run at stock in any board. Any midrange board should be fine to overclock anything up to 8 cores, but only enthusiast boards should be able to handle overclocking the 12- and 16-core monsters.

Once again it comes back to market segmentation. Intel's midrange chipsets cannot overclock at all, which neatly prevents mobo designers from creating a mess like this B550 vs X570 situation.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 22, 2020)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Mpower could not have been on anything other than intel's enthusiast chipsets because after P68 intel disabled all useful OCing on all but Z series chipsets... And at least here in the Europe the Z97 MPower retailed for around half the price of the XPower...
> 
> Just because you want to get every last bit of performance OCing on your board doesn't mean you want to be able to run 4 PCIe 4.0 m.2 drives, 8 SATA drives, have 2 GPUs and a PCIe 4.0 add-in card... OCing features, VRM current capability (beyond a certain point), and extensive I/O options are separate features and the exclusion of one doesn't necessitate the exclusion of the others.


As I said, there was likely one board, maybe two between them... that's it. The MPower isn't a mainstream board, but an enthusiast class board. The XPower was a whooooooooole 'nother level above that and why it was so expensive.

I get your point. This is why boards like the Apex exist. 2 DRAM slots for example... But there is hardly a market for such overclocking focused motherboards like those we've seen in the past.


Assimilator said:


> The overwhelming majority of people on an enthusiast forum should not be trusted to set the policy for midrange boards.
> 
> My personal opinion is that any CPU should run at stock in any board. Any midrange board should be fine to overclock anything up to 8 cores, but only enthusiast boards should be able to handle overclocking the 12- and 16-core monsters.
> 
> Once again it comes back to market segmentation. Intel's midrange chipsets cannot overclock at all, which neatly prevents mobo designers from creating a mess like this B550 vs X570 situation.


1. lol, right?!
2. That's a good opinion and, it works out in an overwhelming marority of cases. But the least expensive board needs to keep in mind things like a 3950X... that's going to raise the floor on cost too.

3. It is messy...the lines are blurred. AMD is good at doing that (mainstream and HEDT core count and their chipsets). Board vendors must love it, lol.


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## R0H1T (Jun 22, 2020)

You also have to remember that the lowest quality/least pricey x570 boards are actually much worse than quality/top tier B550 boards. So if you don't want all the bells & whistles of x570, not to mention a separate fan as a point of potential failure, there's always B550 as a nice *alternative*!


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## puma99dk| (Jun 22, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Ah, but wait for the next gen of cards, they'll all need PCIe 4.0 x16 or the system won't boot



They will properly be listed as such but not a requirement because like the RTX 2080 Ti as @EarthDog wants to correct me on is 2-3% but as I read is that maxing out on x8 not really.

If the GPU itself was only made for x8 the performance would be 99% identical running it in a x16 but the RTX 2080 Ti is really the only card that comes close to use up the whole x8 bandwidth that's why there is 2-3% as @W1zzard tested with his scaling review and I like the review it just shows how much the card really needs x16 and it's not really that much.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 22, 2020)

puma99dk| said:


> They will properly be listed as such but not a requirement because like the RTX 2080 Ti as @EarthDog wants to correct me on is 2-3% but as I read is that maxing out on x8 not really.
> 
> If the GPU itself was only made for x8 the performance would be 99% identical running it in a x16 but the RTX 2080 Ti is really the only card that comes close to use up the whole x8 bandwidth that's why there is 2-3% as @W1zzard tested with his scaling review and I like the review it just shows how much the card really needs x16 and it's not really that much.


Honestly... we don't know as as we haven't seen testing on RTX 2080 or 2080 Super. But the writing is on the wall, no doubt.

That said, a 5700XT loses ~1%. If it wasn't an average across so many tests, I'd call it nothing. A 5700 XT is slower than a 2080Ti by quite a bit so... seems like the threshold is there... upper mid-range.









						PCI-Express 4.0 Performance Scaling with Radeon RX 5700 XT
					

PCI-Express 4.0 has been one of the main new features prominently brandished on the product boxes of both the 3rd generation Ryzen desktop processors and Radeon RX 5700 series graphics cards. We examine the performance impact of running these cards on older generations of PCIe.




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 22, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> The MPower isn't a mainstream board, but an enthusiast class board.


It was an enthusiast board with the fluff cut away... *It sold for around $150*... The whole problem with boards like the current Apex and Crosshairs is they are priced beyond what a lot of people are willing to spend on a board... And especially in the case of the Apex, it loses out on everyday features relative to other boards in that price range.


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## Gmr_Chick (Jun 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Ah, but wait for the next gen of cards, *they'll all need PCIe 4.0 x16 or the system won't boot *



When I had my Ryzen system the first half of this year, that's exactly what kept happening to me with that cursed 5700 XT. Went from my original Crosshair VI (which later died) to a Crosshair VIII Hero, then an AORUS X570 Master, and lastly, the Crosshair VIII Impact   

Perhaps the weirdest thing about that whole experience was the fact that my RX 580 and a GTX 1660 Ti I had for a little while both worked without any of those issues. Kinda of ironic that the gen 4 card refused to work in a gen 4 mobo lol

Do you guys get the feeling there was *something *about my system the GPU/CPU didn't like and thus refused to boot?


----------



## thevisi0nary (Jun 23, 2020)

Am I missing something? Isn't the only substantial difference the Pcie 4 restrictions? The vrm's look to be comparable on b550 depending on the board.









						AMD B550 Motherboard First Look & VRM Temperature Test
					

At long last AMD more budget-oriented B550 motherboards will finally go on sale. There's been plenty of talk about the B550 chipset and all the supporting boards...




					www.techspot.com


----------



## xrror (Jun 23, 2020)

thevisi0nary said:


> Am I missing something? Isn't the only substantial difference the Pcie 4 restrictions?


No I think you've got it. That and it's supposed to be a lower priced chipset than X570 for the mobo makers. Whether or not they use that lower BOM to hit a lower price point or instead add more options at the same price as X570 is up to the mobo maker.


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## EarthDog (Jun 23, 2020)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> It was an enthusiast board with the fluff cut away... *It sold for around $150*... The whole problem with boards like the current Apex and Crosshairs is they are priced beyond what a lot of people are willing to spend on a board... And especially in the case of the Apex, it loses out on everyday features relative to other boards in that price range.


It was/is still a enthusiast level board, lol. Which one sold for $150? Z77 was $210, Z87 was $229. I think there was a price drop on the Z97 that brought it down to sub-$200. $200+ motherboards in 2013, 2014, 2015 were pricey.


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## Vayra86 (Jun 23, 2020)

Cranky5150 said:


> Yeah this chipset was dead at launch..It arrived way to late to the party, and was overpriced from the beginning.



Yet another example of AMD not managing its platform right. They have all the good cards in hand, and yet they play them in the worst possible order.

GPU is stuck in that as well. AMD Is very good at sprinting when its about to release something or go under... and then follows it up with a string of bad events. Strange.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 23, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Yet another example of AMD not managing its platform right. They have all the good cards in hand, and yet they play them in the worst possible order.


You're aware that the B550 is made by ASMedia right? They were reportedly very late getting it done, hence why it only launched now.


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## Vayra86 (Jun 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> You're aware that the B550 is made by ASMedia right? They were reportedly very late getting it done, hence why it only launched now.



Do we need to care? There is an AMD sticker on it. Average Joe doesn't give a damn about all this right? They compare, and they find a well managed product stack versus a messy one.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 23, 2020)

Also the Pandemic is messing with supply chains.


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## puma99dk| (Jun 23, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Yet another example of AMD not managing its platform right. They have all the good cards in hand, and yet they play them in the worst possible order.
> 
> GPU is stuck in that as well. AMD Is very good at sprinting when its about to release something or go under... and then follows it up with a string of bad events. Strange.



Problem with the GPU side is that you have a million different systems to put the cards into and not every system takes everything the same.

So you cannot blame it all on AMD because they do not make every motherboard them self's they make chips but it's also manufactures because AMD and Intel only make the chipsets not the boards if they did we properly won't have the weird issues some people are seeing.



TheLostSwede said:


> You're aware that the B550 is made by ASMedia right? They were reportedly very late getting it done, hence why it only launched now.



Correct @TheLostSwede and to @Vayra86 it's the same with Intel and Nvidia.

Blame Intel they also release their Z chipsets first and Nvidia their top tier Ti and Titan cards first when the depending for better performance ain't $1000.


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## Vayra86 (Jun 23, 2020)

puma99dk| said:


> Problem with the GPU side is that you have a million different systems to put the cards into and not every system takes everything the same.
> 
> So you cannot blame it all on AMD because they do not make every motherboard them self's they make chips but it's also manufactures because AMD and Intel only make the chipsets not the boards if they did we properly won't have the weird issues some people are seeing.
> 
> ...



No its not the same. Intel and Nvidia release in tightly organized cadence for the whole stack. With AMD, everything is always subject to change.

We can predict what an Intel gen release looks like and how the stack is organized, but we can't do that for an AMD release. Last minute changes, late communication (also to suppliers/OEM), changing requirements... Its a big box of problems.

There have been numerous events in the past few years that underline all of that;
- No AIB boards available for GPUs, so you're stuck with reference blowers that are known to be shit. AMD happily releases them months prior to the AIBs. Result: bad press, and sales immediately lead to customer dissatisfaction. And even WHEN AIB's release... its a god damn minefield of good and not-so-good products. It usually comes down to one or two 'good' choices among all of those boards for a specific card. Its ridiculous.
- Last minute driver changes, even up to and including 'optional 14Gbps BIOS'. You couldn't even make it up!
- Launch state of new product is rather weak and prone to early adopter woes, and it can easily take weeks/months for a fix. In this, AMD is not unique... except for the time fixes generally take.

- Order of releases is one thing, but product segmentation is another. We have a topic full of comments here saying B550 is dead in the water because it has no real place in the market. Its a bit of everything. With Intel, you know you want a Z-board and you know why. Or an H/B board for other reasons. With AMD... it could become whatever. This B450/550 is a repeat of what happened with FX procs overloading the VRM. Customers didn't know because there was no clear segmentation.

- A big part of all this seems entirely customer driven, and this is worrying. AMD wants its testing done cheap, the result is you're always trailing press. They can never keep their problems in-house, fix them and then release. This also hurts the brand, I doubt its 'cheaper' than just testing inhouse.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 23, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Yes because that is what defines the two classes. MPower was always part of the enthusiast chipset ftr. It was never low cost. IIRC, the MPower was either 2nd or 3rd in line behind the XPower for cost? It was not a mainstream board by price or chipset bud. Sorry.
> 
> MPower is more like a track car (stripped some features for OC ability)... XPower was a fast luxury vehicle. MPower is, by all accounts, an enthusiast level board.
> 
> ...


read the individual results not just the avg.


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## puma99dk| (Jun 23, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> No its not the same. Intel and Nvidia release in tightly organized cadence for the whole stack. With AMD, everything is always subject to change.
> 
> We can predict what an Intel gen release looks like and how the stack is organized, but we can't do that for an AMD release. Last minute changes, late communication (also to suppliers/OEM), changing requirements... Its a big box of problems.
> 
> ...



You cannot do the VRM because really there are some shitty entry and middle range X570 and Z490 board where the VRM are jokes for this time of chipset and same goes for the B chipsets.


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## EarthDog (Jun 23, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> read the individual results not just the avg.


I felt spelling out that each title would be different wasn't necessary... but yes, look at the details as some titles may be effected more/less than others.


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## Assimilator (Jun 23, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> No its not the same. Intel and Nvidia release in tightly organized cadence for the whole stack. With AMD, everything is always subject to change.
> 
> We can predict what an Intel gen release looks like and how the stack is organized, but we can't do that for an AMD release. Last minute changes, late communication (also to suppliers/OEM), changing requirements... Its a big box of problems.
> 
> ...



It also seems like AMD's own AIB partners don't test their products either. An example is how many of the AMD GPUs that were released that had VRM overheating problems, or the BIOSes that broke fan speeds. That, coupled with the driver issues, gives the perception of a brand that (rightly or wrongly) is overall lower quality than competitors. This perception is something AMD still needs to address, particularly if they want to break into the corporate market, and I don't feel like they're putting enough effort there.


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## bonehead123 (Jun 23, 2020)

Antything with "B" in the series is/was a snoozefest/DOA to me even before it launched, back when they were 50, 150, 250 or whatever 

"Z" for me, otherwise y/A/w/N..........


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 23, 2020)

z490,x570,b550 - they're all so god damn pricey.I'm building a new system and frankly I'm very satisfied with the price of cpu and ram but the board - the cost went up by a 100% compared to my z97.I got 16 gigs of 3733 c17 bdie ram for about the same as I got a 2400 c11 kit for my 4790k which is better than last time actually.I got an i5 that matches prev gen 9700K/8700K for about 60% of what they cost and isn't starved on threads like 4690k was - super sweet deal,last two cpus had to be i7s and both cost me 1400pln.Now I got one for 970pln thanks to amd brining back that bang for the buck sweet spot back in the game.
The board is the only thing that stands out,and it's bad.For a similar class board I'm paying a 1000 while z97 gaming 5 cost me 500.

is b550 doa for enthusiasts -nope.
it'll come to an individual choice of boards imo.some b550s will be more suitable for some people than other x570s.
6-layer pcb is now required for pci-e 4.0 and cheapest z490 to cheapest z390 are over 700pln to what used to be under 500pln.same thing happened to b450->b550.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> What disappointed me, is the lack of a solid mATX board based on the B550 chipset, as there are none based on X570.
> *Edit:* Turns out MSI actually has an ok mATX board, but I really loathe their current UEFI design... It's even priced pretty fairly at $170.
> 
> 
> ...


I find it on the contrary. The only mATX X570 motherboard available in my regular store is the ASRock X570M Pro4, whereas there's an abundance of decent B550 ones. All the X570 features the OP ( @Assimilator ) discussed don't interest me*, so I might very well build my next system around the MAG B550M that you linked.

*: I consider overclocking for a 5-10% extra performance pretty much useless, and I don't need more than one x16 PCI-e slot for my graphics card, and maybe one m.2 for an SSD. Extra USB ports can be sorted out with a hub or an add-in card, and... what else is there?


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## milewski1015 (Jun 23, 2020)

I've no interest in the B550 boards really. My 2600 and B450 Gaming Pro Carbon and doing just fine. Was toying with the idea of jumping up to an X570 Tomahawk and maybe 3700X, but no rush for any of that as I'm happy with current performance. Probably best to hold off until AM5 or DDR5 comes around unless there's a really great deal somewhere. I enjoyed OC'ing my 2600, but given how little headroom there is for the Zen 2 chips, it almost doesn't feel worth it buying a high-end board that'll just auto since static OCs on Ryzen (at least for the time being) are basically dead. 

Is the X570 chipset fan really that big of an issue? I haven't heard anybody complaining about noise. Some have said that it's more of an endurance issue and that it'll get louder years down the road as it wears out.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 23, 2020)

milewski1015 said:


> Is the X570 chipset fan really that big of an issue? I haven't heard anybody complaining about noise. Some have said that it's more of an endurance issue and that it'll get louder years down the road as it wears out.




On my Aorus Master or Crosshair Hero VIII it never comes on other than during boot. 

I also dont remember it being audible on the Asus Tuf/Stix E/Msi unify systems I've done.

I think it's only actually neccessary if using pcie 4 nvme drives in raid.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 23, 2020)

milewski1015 said:


> Is the X570 chipset fan really that big of an issue? I haven't heard anybody complaining about noise.


I have.
If you have gpu covering it it's hot and loud as hell.
funniest thing is it can be solved with a 5 dollar heatsink.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 23, 2020)

milewski1015 said:


> Is the X570 chipset fan really that big of an issue? I haven't heard anybody complaining about noise. Some have said that it's more of an endurance issue and that it'll get louder years down the road as it wears out.


I'll say no here. After reviewing over a dozen boards, I recall only one that was loud/audible. After I reviewed this board, a new BIOS was released that allowed the fan to spin down and have user control. Outside of that, few have complained that I have run across in a few forums.


----------



## jayseearr (Jun 23, 2020)

I'm currently hunting a suitable board for my 3700x and h510 that i have ordered.

I have been looking for several days now and any time a budget X570 board pops up in stock, it's gone within hours. Stock is being literally wiped out before it's even present in the warehouse.
As for the b550's i don't think I've seen a single one in stock or order-able yet. From what i have gathered the b550's seem very comparable in price to the x570's despite them having less features.
Perhaps as more boards become available and in stock and the prices return to normal across the board it will be easier to distinguish a clear price gap between the two, but apart from that happening, the b550's seem to potentially be a waste of space.

I wouldn't consider myself an enthusiast by any means I'm just somebody who likes value/potential future value for my money. My thing is personally, sure the gen 4 seems like overkill NOW, but why not squeeze THE OPTION it into your machine if you can do it without paying a premium? Just because not many people are running gen4 now doesn't mean it won't be alot more common/relevant/affordable in the future. I don't upgrade machines or boards very often at all so when i do it's important to squeeze as many features as possible (within reason) even if i think i may not need them. With that said, both the b550's and x570's will support ryzen 4000 so they are both winners in that regard.

I have until July 14th before my case gets shipped so I am going to wait patiently wait until then at the latest but if i see a good deal on a decent quality budget x570 board I'm snagging it because realistically speaking there is no telling when this crazy world and economy will go back to normal.


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 23, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> I find it on the contrary. The only mATX X570 motherboard available in my regular store is the ASRock X570M Pro4, whereas there's an abundance of decent B550 ones. All the X570 features the OP ( @Assimilator ) discussed don't interest me*, so I might very well build my next system around the MAG B550M that you linked.
> 
> *: I consider overclocking for a 5-10% extra performance pretty much useless, and I don't need more than one x16 PCI-e slot for my graphics card, and maybe one m.2 for an SSD. Extra USB ports can be sorted out with a hub or an add-in card, and... what else is there?


I think you misread my post, as I said there are NO solid mATX boards based on the X570 chipset and I was disappointed by most mATX B550 boards.


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## AusWolf (Jun 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I think you misread my post, as I said *there are NO solid mATX boards based on the X570 chipset* and I was disappointed by most mATX B550 boards.


Sorry, my bad. With this, I agree. Although, I don't know how good the mATX B550 boards are until I try one. Some of them (e.g. the Mortar) look promising tbh.

It just appears to be a very AMD-esque problem. As far as I remember, every solid generation of CPUs they came up with were crippled by poor motherboard choices (compared to Intel).


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## TheLostSwede (Jun 23, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> Sorry, my bad. With this, I agree. Although, I don't know how good the mATX B550 boards are until I try one. Some of them (e.g. the Mortar) look promising tbh.
> 
> It just appears to be a very AMD-esque problem. As far as I remember, every solid generation of CPUs they came up with were crippled by poor motherboard choices (compared to Intel).


I guess it's up to the motherboard makers to make what they expect to sell, but imho, most of them seems to have a rater odd lineup of products these days...


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## AusWolf (Jun 23, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I guess it's up to the motherboard makers to make what they expect to sell, but imho, most of them seems to have a rater odd lineup of products these days...


True. I don't understand why there's a need for 3-4 different "gamer" brands from a single maker. As for me, if a board has a solid VRM, decent cooling and a nicely configurable BIOS/UEFI, it's good to go.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 23, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> True. I don't understand why there's a need for 3-4 different "gamer" brands from a single maker. As for me, if a board has a solid VRM, decent cooling and a nicely configurable BIOS/UEFI, it's good to go.


they're just tiers.

e.g. asus has tuf,prime,strix and maxiums
they're each a tier higher in terms of quality and features

back in z77 days asrock had extreme from 4 to 11 as well as oc formula.this is the same thing except the choice is bigger.
when I was buying my z97 gigabyte had the gaming line,the ud line and the soc line,each had 3,4,5 boards.same thing here.
point is - going by the line name never bought you the best product for the money,you always had to analyze boards on a case to case basis.same applies here.

ppl who say things like "tuf line is crap" or "taichi line is best" are absolutely clueless individuals.too lazy to do the research.gigabyte z390 and z490 aorus boards are among the best for the money,yet they never get a mention in recommendations.why - cause ppl think gigabyte's bad.same for some tuf boards.but I bet you there's gonna be ppl who'll recommend asrock z490 boards even though they're awful simply cause they heard asrock is good.


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## Assimilator (Jun 23, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> True. I don't understand why there's a need for 3-4 different "gamer" brands from a single maker. As for me, if a board has a solid VRM, decent cooling and a nicely configurable BIOS/UEFI, it's good to go.



There's a "need" because "gamer" sells best. Because most people have no taste in things that are actually important.


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## jayseearr (Jun 23, 2020)

Does anybody with experience in x570 boards have any solid budget options or makers that they would recommend that i can keep my eye out for over the next month? I'm willing to spend up to 280$ on a board but the enthusiast $500-$700 dollar boards are out of the question. The case is a h510 so it can fit both atx and microatx any input appreciated. Sorry, i hope I'm not straying from the thread but it seems like a good pool of people to ask.


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## zoulztealer (Jun 23, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> The only features it has over X570 are (possibly, depending on the board) WiFi 6 and 2.5Gb LAN (and the lack of a chipset fan, if that really bothers you). Motherboard manufacturers are trying to sell B550 by claiming it has better VRMs and memory overclocking but let's face it, OC on Ryzen is pretty much non-existent and due to the Infinity Fabric wall there's no reason to want to run RAM any faster than DDR-4000, which pretty much every X570 board does already. And the VRM argument is mostly moot because (most) X570 boards, being flagship products, have strong VRMs anyway - unless you're on a 3900X/3950X it really isn't going to matter.
> 
> B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each. Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports, and only a handful come with a front USB-C header. And yet they're consistently priced around the same price, or even higher, than X570 boards with better feature sets. Heck, there are many B450 boards with superior IO connectivity!
> 
> ...



hey, at least you've got the illusion of oc'ing on ryzen. now thats something! %) also like the mutliple menus and options that probably crossfire each other...


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## Gmr_Chick (Jun 24, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> they're just tiers.
> 
> *e.g. asus has tuf,prime,strix and maxiums*
> they're each a tier higher in terms of quality and features
> ...



Wouldn't it be Prime, TUF, Strix, Maximus (Crosshair on the AMD side) instead? And I wouldn't even really consider the Prime series "gamer" boards, but more of a jack of all trades type of series.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

Gmr_Chick said:


> Wouldn't it be Prime, TUF, Strix, Maximus (Crosshair on the AMD side) instead? And I wouldn't even really consider the Prime series "gamer" boards, but more of a jack of all trades type of series.


prime series is big,prime a is better than tuf.


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## sepheronx (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> Does anybody with experience in x570 boards have any solid budget options or makers that they would recommend that i can keep my eye out for over the next month? I'm willing to spend up to 280$ on a board but the enthusiast $500-$700 dollar boards are out of the question. The case is a h510 so it can fit both atx and microatx any input appreciated. Sorry, i hope I'm not straying from the thread but it seems like a good pool of people to ask.



I built three Ryzen systems so far.  One with a MSI X570, a Gigabyte Aorus Elite and then one with ASUS TUF.  The ASUS TUF is actually quite good and its cheaper.  The MSI one was cheaper but its VRM aren't really good and thus anything above 3700X may be pushing the board too much.  The best one was obviously Gigabyte Aorus Elite but it cost $300 CAD.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

I still find this pretty impressive though. Pitted against two of the best B450 boards and really the only 2 I recommended in the past  it obliterates both of them...... The Pro Carbon basically needs a best case scenario to match the Mortar being passively cooled by just its heatsink.

This also outperforms the majority of the budget X570 Boards as well for around $159 I don't really see that as a problem especially if prices settle around $20-30 cheaper like they did with X570 post launch.


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## Xex360 (Jun 24, 2020)

IMO the biggest problem of B550 it came too late, AMD should've launched last year with Zen2 or at least a few months later, now they are in an odd situation, B450 are offering good value while B550 are quite expensive. The only saving grace is X570's stupid fan.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Jun 24, 2020)

Honestly, all this hate for a tiny 20mm fan that I can't hear over any fan in my system.
I have my gfx mounted vertically and tbh I don't know if it even spins.


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## AusWolf (Jun 24, 2020)

Xex360 said:


> IMO the biggest problem of B550 it came too late, AMD should've launched last year with Zen2 or at least a few months later, now they are in an odd situation, B450 are offering good value while B550 are quite expensive. The only saving grace is X570's stupid fan.


I disagree. It came at the right time to mature before Zen 3 comes out. I'm for one, waiting for Zen 3 to make the switch from Kaby Lake.


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I built three Ryzen systems so far.  One with a MSI X570, a Gigabyte Aorus Elite and then one with ASUS TUF.  The ASUS TUF is actually quite good and its cheaper.  The MSI one was cheaper but its VRM aren't really good and thus anything above 3700X may be pushing the board too much.  The best one was obviously Gigabyte Aorus Elite but it cost $300 CAD.



Thanks for the advice sepheron...i've been doing alot of reasearch on vrms and thermals of some budget x570 boards in my range(when paired with a 3900x which would likely be my upgrade a few years down the road) and i actually ordered the x570 Elite like you suggested for 220$. I cancelled the order not because it isn't a great deal but because I'm hoping to score a tomahawk x570 for a similar price if i wait it out and have a little more patience. My case doesn't ship til july14th so i figure there is no sense in rushing a purchase of a mobo until then because i wont even be able to use it.



oxrufiioxo said:


> I still find this pretty impressive though. Pitted against two of the best B450 boards and really the only 2 I recommended in the past  it obliterates both of them...... The Pro Carbon basically needs a best case scenario to match the Mortar being passively cooled by just its heatsink.
> 
> This also outperforms the majority of the budget X570 Boards as well for around $159 I don't really see that as a problem especially if prices settle around $20-30 cheaper like they did with X570 post launch.
> 
> View attachment 160015



I agree rufio that is interesting and looks a little more favorable in terms of b550 but the thing is the pro carbon is literally known for being one of the worst x570 boards on the market in terms of vrm and thermals when coupled with a higher core 3900 or 3950. I wouldn't touch the carbon pro with a 10 foot pole after seeing some of the reviews that I've seen. Hardware unboxed did a good review a while back showing how terrible the thermals were and MSI essentially agreed with his findings and launched the Unify as a improved response. Here's the link for anyone who is bored or cares:









Edit* Imagine buying a pro carbon gaming or gaming edge wifi mobo with a 3700x only to find that your board is literally burning up after an hour load only 2-3 years down the road when you upgrade to a 12 core....

I respect msi's decision to agree with the findings and release a improved budget option but in my honest opinion that isn't good enough. they need to literally take it off the market and keep it off or put a huge warning on the box labeled: WARNING! DO NOT BUY THIS BOARD IF YOUR INTENTION IS FOR IT TO BE USABLE IN THE FUTURE WHEN YOU UPGRADE.

That's just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt but i would be PISSED if i bought a msi pro carbon/gaming edge today and went to upgrade to a 3900 in a couple years only to find that its running hotter than the sahara. I don't care if it's budget or not, that's flat out unacceptable. Unless of course they released some magical bios update in the last few months that somehow lowers the temps by about 40 degrees (lol)


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

It was comparing the B450 pro carbon not the X570 one..... but even if it was the x570 version it would still outperform it.


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

oh my mistake, i thought the thread was comparing x570 and b550 , not b450's


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> oh my mistake, i thought the thread was comparing x570 and b550 , not b450's




Its mostly people upset over the cost increase from b450 to b550


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

That's another story and personally I don't think that's a valid reason for anyone to be upset. The cost increase from a b450 to a b550 is fairly marginal actually and i would say it's well worth the negligible price increase when you consider the increase of thermal performance + gen4 storage. Once again though, i think this threaded is more geared towards x570 vs b550 rather than b450.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> The cost increase from a b450 to a b550 is fairly marginal actually


dude are you seeing the numbers right ?

tuf b450 to tuf 550 is 450 to 770 pln

it's 1.70x 
when intel does this there's a bashing party right away.
amd does it - negligible.worth it.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> dude are you seeing the numbers right ?
> 
> tuf b450 to tuf 550 is 450 to 770 pln




I'm not disagreeing with them I wouldn't touch the majority of the b550 boards but I also wouldn't touch the majority of the x570 boards either.....


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> That's another story and personally I don't think that's a valid reason for anyone to be upset. The cost increase from a b450 to a b550 is fairly marginal actually and i would say it's well worth the negligible price increase when you consider the increase of thermal performance + gen4 storage. Once again though, i think this threaded is more geared towards x570 vs b550 rather than b450.


You may want to actually look and compare before you say something like that..... especially using the term negligible.

Aorus Pro Wifi compared to Aorus Pro AC = ~$85. That is ~70% more than the $115 Pro Wifi, for example. Gaming Pro carbon wifi... $140 to $220. $80 difference..over 50%.

These value are hardly negligible even when considering the (MEH) bump to 4.0 GPU and storage (one of each, note).


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

perhaps not...the numbers are fairly skewed at the moment if you hadn't noticed...

My understanding of the quality mid b450 boards were in the range of 120-200$ versus the b550 which some are selling for less than 200$ as well. 

Comparing the cost of a b550 to a b450 NOW is not a fair price comparison. if you want to compare the two more reasonably go by what people were paying for the b450 when they were newer..not now when they are borderline almost out of production...-_-


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> perhaps not...the numbers are fairly skewed at the moment if you hadn't noticed...
> 
> My understanding of the quality mid b450 boards were in the range of 120-200$ versus the b550 which some are selling for less than 200$ as well.
> 
> Comparing the cost of a b550 to a b450 NOW is not a fair price comparison. if you want to compare the two more reasonably go by what people were paying for the b450 when they were newer..not now when they are borderline almost out of production...-_-


Who's comparing prices now? Not me......... I looked up B450 reviews/roundups which listed MSRP and compared it to B550 MSRP of like boards.

It isn't negligible. Not even close for most boards (not all, however). 

But do look and compare...


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

Ok so from what i am seeing now the msrp for the tomahawk b450 tomahawk wifi is $150 whereas the tomahawk b550 was available for $180 or $190 on preorder...

Once again, i think that's fairly marginal when you consider the improved thermals on higher cores and gen 4 storage capabilities...it's not like you are paying more and getting less...
Anyway let's not get off topic and argue over my idea of negligible versus yours..there's literally no point. I clearly stated that was just my opinion and anyone who reads it is free to disagree just like they are free to stay on the b450 platform.


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 24, 2020)

The b550 was never targeted to enthusiasts. So, you have no point in your argument to begin with, unless you mean something else and you didn't manage to explain your thoughts properly or I'm missing something. The problems I see with the b550 are the board makes and the customers, the board makes are saturating the market by selling the same basic product by changing minute details purely aesthetical because they want to sell as many chips as possible with the least cost and the customers want one board for everything while paying 100$ for it. And AMD is trying to accommodate everyone because it doesn't have the market % of Intel in order to dictate more sensible solutions. So basically this is what happens when you give people "freedom", people fail miserably to handle it and create a chaotic situation for no reason whatsoever.


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

Give the b550's some time before you just throw a blanket over them and say they are out of the question for enthusiasts...jeez they haven't even hit the market yet and you're shutting them down? I'm willing to say i think x570 is a better value than the b550(RIGHT NOW) but I'm also not willing to completely write the b550's off at this state either. The b450's and x750's have had years to iterate and release new makes and the b550s can't even touch your hands yet....settle down a little bit.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> My understanding of the* quality* mid b450 boards were in the range of 120-200$ versus the b550 which *some* are selling for less than 200$ as well.


he's the problem with your understanding.you're not comparing apples to apples.

here it is:
630pln and 830pln for b450 strix F and E
950 and 1250 for b550 strix F and E

1.50x both


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 24, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> he's the problem with your understanding.


You are misrepresenting his point but yeah.. whatever floats your boat.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> You are misrepresenting his point but yeah.. whatever floats your boat.


no.read the numbers.can't put opinions over numbers even tho you're both trying.

I'll go on -

aorus elite b450 v 550 - 440 vs 680 pln, 1.55x

that's already four boards between 1.50x-1.70x price increase


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

Cucker are you just going to ignore the numbers that i presented or.....?
I already verified the b450 tomahawk wifi was 150$
I also verified the b550 tomahawk was 180$ on pre order.

That's a 30$ difference for a board with significantly better thermals on high cores and gen 4 storage capability...Is that really so preposterous as you are trying to make it seem?


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

are ignoring mine that show a consistent pattern and try to present one anectodal example as evidence ?

another one - mortar b450 vs 550 - 1.6x price here


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> Cucker are you just going to ignore the numbers that i presented or.....?
> I already verified the b450 tomahawk wifi was 150$
> I also verified the b550 tomahawk was 180$ on pre order.
> 
> That's a 30$ difference for a board with significantly better thermals on high cores and gen 4 storage capability...Is that really so preposterous as you are trying to make it seem?


What about the rest? The several examples we've listed where pricing has a more serious increase? Are you ignoring those?

The examples I ran into (solely because I happen to have these for review this second) are clearly not negligible regardless of better thermals (what does that mean?) and gen 4 storage (which few would notice a difference in the first place).

What IS preposterous to me is most boards show a significant % price increase as we've listed so far. Not all are like that, but a majority have increased significantly in price and is not close to negligible difference. It depends on the board!

EDIT: Also note, the MSRP for the B450 Tomahawk was $110. The b550 tomahawk is $180. Your also comparing a more expensive part (with Wifi) against B550 tomahawk which has none. Apples to apples, please!


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

I listed five.Can't provide more as those five are the only 5 available b550s atm here.

five boards,two at 1.50x,one at 1.55x,one at 1.60x,one at 1.70x


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

I figured using one of the all around most popular boards both for budget/enthusiast was a good example rather than busting out the calculator and running thru a long list but perhaps i should gather a few more numbers first I will give you that...

Nonetheless, If people on b450 are disappointed by what b550 offers them in features versus price increase, then once again, settle down and wait for the b550's to produce some more makes and if they still feel that way after a while just get a x570 instead...OR just stay on your b450!


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> I already verified the b450 tomahawk wifi was 150$
> I also verified the b550 tomahawk was 180$ on pre order.



Afaik there never was a b450 Tomahawk wifi..... unless you're confusing it with the B450 Pro carbon AC.....


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> I figured using *one* of the all around most popular boards both for budget/enthusiast was a good example rather than *busting out the calculator and running thru a long list *but perhaps i should gather a few more numbers first I will give you that...
> 
> Nonetheless, If people on b450 are disappointed by what b550 offers them in features versus price increase, then once again, settle down and wait for the b550's to produce some more makes and if they still feel that way after a while just get a x570 instead...OR just stay on your b450!


it's exactly what is wrong with your example
what I listed is called a consistent pattern.what you presented is called anecdotal.
go tell people to get this one board  see how that goes


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> I figured using one of the all around most popular boards both for budget/enthusiast was a good example rather than busting out the calculator and running thru a long list but perhaps i should gather a few more numbers first I will give you that...
> 
> Nonetheless, If people on b450 are disappointed by what b550 offers them in features versus price increase, then once again, settle down and wait for the b550's to produce some more makes and if they still feel that way after a while just get a x570 instead...OR just stay on your b450!


Cherry picking a single result is never a good idea when applying it to 49+ other boards. 

Essentially, WYSIWYG on B550. Sure another board or two will pop up in time, but you aren't going to see a big difference in price between B450 and B550. Your advice is to wait for something that won't happen (price drops on 'new' B550) or pay for the more an even more expensive board?

EDIT: And B550 has been out for over a week now.... 

My friend, take some time and be a sponge, let's not wring it out quite yet.


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

Did you miss the second part of my last post Cucker? If people on b450 are not happy with the b550 features versus price increase then that is their prerogative and they have the right to feel that way....
But it isn't as though there aren't other options...No one is forcing them onto the b550. As long as they speak with their wallet and stay on the b450 or go with x570..that will surely drive the b550 prices down to somewhere they perhaps feel is more acceptable in the future...

I don't disagree that the b550 is an overall bad value on the market right now, i never did. My point was that IF YOU CAN upgrade from a b450 to a b550 at price that is neglible (TO YOU) then it could (PERHAPS) be worthwhile...

Edit* Earthdog you are getting rather redundant and tiresome quickly. I already admitted perhaps i should have gathered more numbers but nonetheless my underlying point holds true. If you don't like it. don't get it. period.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> Did you miss the second part of my last post Cucker? If people on b450 are not happy with the b550 features versus price increase then that is their prerogative and they have the right to feel that way....
> But it isn't as though there aren't other options...No one is forcing them onto the b550.


no I didn't miss anything I was just staying on topic


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## Assimilator (Jun 24, 2020)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> The b550 was never targeted to enthusiasts.



Really?

The GIGABYTE B550 Aorus Master's MSRP is $280. The first thing you see when you go to its product page is "Direct 16 Phases Digital VRM".

Tell me again how that's not targeted at enthusiasts.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> I don't disagree that the b550 is an overall bad value on the market right now, i never did.


yes you did


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

No i didn't...i used an anecdotal example to show that the upgrade could potentially be worthwhile in certain scenarios remember? Now you are starting to disagree with yourself....think about it.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> No i didn't...i used an anecdotal example to show that the upgrade could potentially be worthwhile in certain scenarios remember? Now you are starting to disagree with yourself....think about it.


not really but I get your point.it's doable.if stars align.

I disagree with the premise of the thread tho.not cause b550 are good value.cause look at x570 and z490 and then look at b550 again......


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

Ok well at least you are backtracking like a sold out politician and coming off in a reasonable manner now rather than crucifying me instantly without understanding the heart of what i was really trying to say...


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> Ok well at least you are backtracking like a sold out politician and coming off in a reasonable manner now rather than crucifying me instantly without understanding the heart of what i was really trying to say...


how am I backtracking.

you presented one example
I presented five

it's you who needs a fact check


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> Edit* Earthdog you are getting rather redundant and tiresome quickly.


Funny. I was thinking the same thing about your posts that were lacking the qualifiers you just recently posted. If you said what you meant out of the gate (and looked at more boards) we wouldn't be here. This isn't a chicken or the egg. I know the cart came before the horse. 



jayseearr said:


> My point was that IF YOU CAN upgrade from a b450 to a b550 at price that is neglible (TO YOU) then it could (PERHAPS) be worthwhile...


If that was your point, with respect, you did a poor job getting it across. You started out with one example while others showed several the other way (and even mentioned it wasn't every board).

If there is anyone backtracking, it's you bud. Read your posts. 

That said, I agree with your amended point. IF you can find a board that isn't as horribly priced, that upgrade can be worth it. Otherwise......it isn't negligible in most cases and PCIe 4.0 storage few care about in the first place.

Move on. I'm done here.


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## kapone32 (Jun 24, 2020)

Gmr_Chick said:


> Just going to add my 2 cents here and say I think the biggest issue with B550 boards compared to the enthusiast X570 boards (excluding the MSI Godlike and AORUS Extreme from my point due to the fact that they're both stupid-expensive for MSDT; I've seen Threadripper boards cheaper than them, and that's HEDT!) is the price. I'm sorry, but there's something not quite right when you see the "mainstream" B550 AORUS Master and ASrock B550 Taichi going for MORE than what my X370 Crosshair VI Hero ($230, got it on sale) was going for at the time -- at $280 and $300 respectively!  At those prices, you may as well get an X570 board for about the same price.
> 
> So yeah, I definitely think prices are one of B550's biggest fails. Going to end my opinion piece here.


 The high end of B550 and X570 does pale even in comparison to TR4 but the top end boards are not for enthusiasts as there is no value in the B550 Taichi from As Rock vs all X570 boards. Those kinds of boards are for people that want to believe that the board's quality and ability are directly tied to price.


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## AusWolf (Jun 24, 2020)

No intention to join the battle (or start another one) here, but can someone explain to me how the B550 is less of an enthusiast platform than the X570 besides the name?


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

One example , 5 examples, 10 examples...Doesn't matter
Once again, i never said anybody using b450 should instantly upgrade to b550 because it's a phenomenal value across the board. Like both of you are trying desperately to insinuate

what i was TRYING to say was the increase of features from b450 to b550 is worthwhile (IF) you can upgrade for a marginal cost. 

Evaluating the b550 at it's current price point given the other options on the market and the fact that the b550 just released is unfair. Once again, they JUST released good grief, give it a little while for more boards to come out and let people speak with their wallet. If they are overpriced in general NOW that will change.

I could just keep repeating myself until you understand what my actual point was but apparently you are not reading between the lines. Let's stop harping on what you THOUGHT i meant and just move on, shall we?


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## kapone32 (Jun 24, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> No intention to join the battle (or start another one) here, but can someone explain to me how the B550 is less of an enthusiast platform than the X570 besides the name?


 It depends on your definition of enthusiast e.g. if you are someone that looks at value the best B550 board is the Asus Prime WIFI for $189.99 but someone else could look at the Asus Strix-F for $289 as the most common sense. Propaganda (and board quality) has made the Tomahawk and Mortar popular. At the end of the day though there is less expansion potential on B550 and even though it is a new launch it is not better than X570 in any way, which makes the prices are stupid for the flagship boards period.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> One example , 5 examples, 10 examples...Doesn't matter


does.
it's exactly what matters in a thread that reads 


Assimilator said:


> B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each. Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports, and only a handful come with a front USB-C header. And yet they're consistently priced around the same price, or even higher, than X570 boards with better feature sets. Heck, there are many B450 boards with superior IO connectivity!


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> Like both of you are trying desperately to insinuate


I won't speak for cucker, my post was to show you that your single example means little compared to the majority of boards. If you were more clear on your point (below) we wouldn't be here.


jayseearr said:


> what i was TRYING to say was the increase of features from b450 to b550 is worthwhile (IF) you can upgrade for a marginal cost.


Cool. Say that out of the gate, next time. 

I've already moved on... I was simply adding information to your example, then it turned into a shitstorm of backpeddling and moving the goal posts (clarifying the point you were trying to make).

GL to you. 



AusWolf said:


> No intention to join the battle (or start another one) here, but can someone explain to me how the B550 is less of an enthusiast platform than the X570 besides the name?


Price is, on average, lower. There are less PCIe lanes and therefor less flexibility on PCIe lane bifurcation for storage etc. They needed to bump the VRMs up (what I think jays is calling 'better thermals') to support the processors so 'all' of them got that bump.


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## AusWolf (Jun 24, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> It depends on your definition of enthusiast e.g. if you are someone that looks at value the best B550 board is the Asus Prime WIFI for $189.99 but someone else could look at the Asus Strix-F for $289 as the most common sense. Propaganda (and board quality) has made the Tomahawk and Mortar popular. At the end of the day though there is less expansion potential on B550 and even though it is a new launch it is not better than X570 in any way, which makes the prices are stupid for the flagship boards period.


I see your point. My definition of enthusiast is something that has no problem running *any* compatible CPU out of the box, besides my usual GPU, SSD and HDD(s). I don't need a million PCI-e lanes for petabytes of SSD storage, but I do need a solid VRM with good cooling on it, just in case I want to upgrade to the best compatible CPU. That makes the £170 MSI B550M Mortar just as desirable in my eyes as the £300 ASRock X570 Taichi (only that the latter is ATX, which doesn't fit into my case).


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## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> does.


It matters in general if you are evaluating the overall price difference of b450 vsb550 sure i agree with you there cucker. but for like the tenth time that was not my goal, you still aren't getting it, If you haven't by now you are not going to.



EarthDog said:


> I won't speak for cucker, my post was to show you that your single example means little compared to the majority of boards. If you were more clear on your point (below) we wouldn't be here.
> Cool. Say that out of the gate, next time.
> 
> I've already moved on... I was simply adding information to your example, then it turned into a shitstorm of backpeddling and moving the goal posts (clarifying the point you were trying to make).



"Cool say the out of the gate next time"
Haha wow, somebody woke up feeling self-righteous this morning...Check yourself dude, forgive me for not perfectly conveying my complicated view on the matter that would resonate with your particular mind in the first couple of sentences or paragraph of a discussion...

"i've already moved on"...are you sure about that? it doesn't seem like it...


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> but for like the tenth time that was not my goal, you still aren't getting it, If you haven't by now you are not going to.


----------



## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

saying something for the tenth time VS backpedaling? hm...interesting juxtaposition.

If you are gonna resort to cheesy memes to support your ghost argument at least be original about it...I just called you out for backtracking like 10 minutes ago come on dude, surely you can do better.



			https://media.makeameme.org/created/one-does-not-45mdua.jpg


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> saying something for the tenth time VS backpedaling? hm...interesting juxtaposition.
> 
> If you are gonna resort to cheesy memes to support your ghost argument at least be original about it...I just called you out for backtracking like 10 minutes ago come on dude, surely you can do better.
> 
> ...


Get lost dude


----------



## jayseearr (Jun 24, 2020)

No problem, Don't let your meatloaf and keep in touch with yourself.

I hope you learned a valuable lesson in the proper way to conduct a fair discussion today...If something doesn't add up in your mind instantaneously next time maybe ask a question or engage the discussion so you can have a better understanding of what someone was perhaps trying to say rather than instantly disagreeing or coming off like an arrogant turd stain. We're chatting a on a forum just reading a bunch of letters, it's not always possible for someone to convey exactly what they think or how they feel about a multi-layered idea or subject in a sentence or two, much less a paragraph.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 24, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> The only features it has over X570 are (possibly, depending on the board) WiFi 6 and 2.5Gb LAN (and the lack of a chipset fan, if that really bothers you). Motherboard manufacturers are trying to sell B550 by claiming it has better VRMs and memory overclocking but let's face it, OC on Ryzen is pretty much non-existent and due to the Infinity Fabric wall there's no reason to want to run RAM any faster than DDR-4000, which pretty much every X570 board does already. And the VRM argument is mostly moot because (most) X570 boards, being flagship products, have strong VRMs anyway - unless you're on a 3900X/3950X it really isn't going to matter.
> 
> B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each. Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports, and only a handful come with a front USB-C header. And yet they're consistently priced around the same price, or even higher, than X570 boards with better feature sets. Heck, there are many B450 boards with superior IO connectivity!
> 
> ...



well B550 is still sold out everywhere, Amazon and Newegg, so I guess its not DOA at all.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 24, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> well B550 is still sold out everywhere, Amazon and Newegg, so I guess its not DOA at all.


it isn't.
I'd take b550 were I building an amd system now


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 24, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> it isn't.
> I'd take b550 were I building an amd system now



I think the Gigabyte Aurous mini ITX b550 mobo looks great personally, TPU reviewed it with a 3900x, its vrm thermals are insanely good for mini itx. i have always wanted a cute mini itx build. might go for it


----------



## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 24, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> Really?
> 
> The GIGABYTE B550 Aorus Master's MSRP is $280. The first thing you see when you go to its product page is "Direct 16 Phases Digital VRM".
> 
> Tell me again how that's not targeted at enthusiasts.


I also made a distinction between AMD and the board makers. AMD didn't create the b550 for enthusiasts, they have the x570 for exactly the enthusiast audience. Gigabyte, and any other manufacturer for that matter, can put it in a board and market it to whoever they like.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 24, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> The high end of B550 and X570 does pale even in comparison to TR4 but the top end boards are not for enthusiasts as there is no value in the B550 Taichi from As Rock vs all X570 boards. Those kinds of boards are for people that want to believe that the board's quality and ability are directly tied to price.



Especially when the price of the B550 mid end is about same as that of a x570 Asus TUF motherboard which is a good motherboard and has both PCIe 4.0 M.2, not 1 and the other being PCIe 3.0.  Plus it has a good audio chip compared to most of the B550's from what I can tell.  Only thing it lacks is a USB-C header on the motherboard which for me is necessary (I know that is nitpicking).  But otherwise, its a fantastic board and with that price, makes no sense to buy a B550.

Overall prices need to be dropped in order to be competitive.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> I think the Gigabyte Aurous mini ITX b550 mobo looks great personally, TPU reviewed it with a 3900x, its vrm thermals are insanely good for mini itx. i have always wanted a cute mini itx build. might go for it




That's a pretty impressive board for $180 actually. 8 phase vrm with 90 amp power stages.... A couple more USB would be nice but otherwise it seems even slightly better than the X570 variant.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 24, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> That's a pretty impressive board for $180 actually. 8 phase vrm with 90 amp power stages.... A couple more USB would be nice but otherwise it seems even slightly better than the X570 variant.



its only 6 phases to the cpu, 2 to igpu from what i heard buildzoid say.  but regardless, the tpu review used a 3900x, and stress thermal load on vrm's never broke 42 celsius, and everything else is stable. honestly have no idea why anyone would need these $280 direct 16 phases mobo's... seriously ryzen oc's on its own easily based on thermals, the old days of cpu overclocking our gone and its just time to accept that.  200mhz boost on one core once in awhile is most you will get on any decent board high end or mid range from what i have read.

the 6 phases is only reason i am hesitant but again i dont know much about this stuff. im assuming though its just fine... as mentioned above the tpu review used a 3900x with it and it was fully stable. i think max clock it said was 4.4 ghz though? i thought 3900x was supposed to boost to 4.6? so maybe itx does limit performance? i don't know, i have no knowledge on itx. below image is from the tpu review found here:









						Gigabyte B550I AORUS Pro AX Review
					

The B550I AORUS Pro AX from Gigabyte comes with a lot of hardware packed into a small package. Among the features are 2.5 Gb/s Ethernet, WiFi 6, dual M.2 slots, and top-tier 90 A power stages. Let's see just how good this new SFF option from Gigabyte really is!




					www.techpowerup.com


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 24, 2020)

During normal usage it rarely boost to 4.6 I typically see mine at 4.1-4.3 depending on what I'm doing... That is on 2 of the best x570 boards. Aorus Master/Crosshair 8

You can technically overclock the CPU to 4.4 but the gains vs the power and heat difference isn't worth it.

You only ever very briefly see 4.6 but the overall performance is still there especially with good cooling.


----------



## Blaazen (Jun 24, 2020)

@ Especially when the price of the B550 mid end is about same as that of a x570 Asus TUF motherboard which is a good motherboard and has both PCIe 4.0 M.2, not 1 and the other being PCIe 3.0. Plus it has a good audio chip compared to most of the B550's from what I can tell. Only thing it lacks is a USB-C header on the motherboard which for me is necessary (I know that is nitpicking). But otherwise, its a fantastic board and with that price, makes no sense to buy a B550.

But $15 cheaper than TUF X570 is ASUS ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING (WI-FI) - which has the same audio, 2.5Gb LAN and 802.11ax wifi + Bluetooth5.


----------



## Edwired (Jun 24, 2020)

I know this isnt somewhat related as a friend of mine just builded his pc with the ryzen 5 3600 with msi b450 max pro i think what happened really he put it together and it never worked correctly after that even did the flashback bio via usb it refused to post at all. I had a look around the board with the dmm to see if anything is failed turned out the vrm section on the left side of the cpu there's four vrm chips went to short to ground causing the no post problem as the build was only barely a week old. But judging the fact the b450 series is showing alot of hits on the internet relation to issues and failures


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

Edwired said:


> I know this isnt somewhat related as a friend of mine just builded his pc with the ryzen 5 3600 with msi b450 max pro i think what happened really he put it together and it never worked correctly after that even did the flashback bio via usb it refused to post at all. I had a look around the board with the dmm to see if anything is failed turned out the vrm section on the left side of the cpu there's four vrm chips went to short to ground causing the no post problem as the build was only barely a week old. But judging the fact the b450 series is showing alot of hits on the internet relation to issues and failures


You can google anything and get hits... B450 is OLD... there are going to be hits on everything.


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## Edwired (Jun 24, 2020)

I know it old @*EarthDog* but it was his money that he bought it brand new so i told him to send it back where he got it from and get a replacement or refund. As he got it from amazon uk so i told him once he get a replacement board and i rebuild the pc the correct way as he had wires everywhere in the case it was a mess


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

Edwired said:


> I know it old @*EarthDog* but it was his money that he bought it brand new so i told him to send it back where he got it from and get a replacement or refund. As he got it from amazon uk so i told him once he get a replacement board and i rebuild the pc the correct way as he had wires everywhere in the case it was a mess


I think you missed the point. Regardless if it is new to him, B450 and that board have been out for years... so of course you will find hits. That doesn't mean it is a systemic problem, however. 

I don't see how this experience is at all related with the thread title, but...... I digress.


----------



## Edwired (Jun 24, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> I think you missed the point. Regardless if it is new to him, B450 and that board have been out for years... so of course you will find hits. That doesn't mean it is a systemic problem, however.
> 
> I don't see how this experience is at all related with the thread title, but...... I digress.


I know and i didnt miss the point either


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 24, 2020)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> I also made a distinction between AMD and the board makers. AMD didn't create the b550 for enthusiasts, they have the x570 for exactly the enthusiast audience. Gigabyte, and any other manufacturer for that matter, can put it in a board and market it to whoever they like.


Again this "X570 = enthusiast, B550 = not enthusiast" distinction, and I still don't understand how different the two are, apart from the number of PCI-e lanes and USB ports, which not everybody needs a lot of, being a hardware enthusiast or not.

Edit: Is it a placebo effect that some people use to explain why they spent so much money on a motherboard that they don't need?


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## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> Again this "X570 = enthusiast, B550 = not enthusiast" distinction, and I still don't understand how different the two are, apart from the number of PCI-e lanes and USB ports, which not everybody needs a lot of, being a hardware enthusiast or not.


That is, for all intents and purposes, the difference. There are other subtle differences like aesthetics, different VRM's, maybe more have 6+ sata ports and 3 M.2... etc. An 'enthusiast' platform has all the bells and whistles the platform has to offer while mainstream chipsets are limited in different ways. That doesn't mean an enthusiast can't buy a B550 board...

The distinction is in marketing, not by user. HEDT, Enthusiast, Mainstream, etc...


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 24, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> That is, for all intents and purposes, the difference. There are other subtle differences like aesthetics, different VRM's, maybe more have 6+ sata ports and 3 M.2... etc. An 'enthusiast' platform has all the bells and whistles the platform has to offer while mainstream chipsets are limited in different ways. That doesn't mean an enthusiast can't buy a B550 board...
> 
> The distinction is in marketing, not by user. HEDT, Enthusiast, Mainstream, etc...


This is why I tend to avoid using the word "enthusiast" when I describe a piece of hardware.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 24, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> This is why I tend to avoid using the word "enthusiast" when I describe a piece of hardware.


Not sure why you'd avoid that so long as you/people you are talking to understand you are talking tiers of hardware. Don't get lost in the minutia.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 25, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Especially when the price of the B550 mid end is about same as that of a x570 Asus TUF motherboard which is a good motherboard and has both PCIe 4.0 M.2, not 1 and the other being PCIe 3.0.  Plus it has a good audio chip compared to most of the B550's from what I can tell.  Only thing it lacks is a USB-C header on the motherboard which for me is necessary (I know that is nitpicking).  But otherwise, its a fantastic board and with that price, makes no sense to buy a B550.
> 
> Overall prices need to be dropped in order to be competitive.


Exactly, I wouldn't buy any of the high end B550 boards but I have to admit that I am looking at the Asus Prime M WiFI B550 it is $199 Canadian. It would replace my current HTPC which has the B450 Prime. For the $80 premium the B550 Prime has way more features (ARGB + 1 RGB header(s), PCIE 4.0 GPU & M2, WIFI 6. I have a 3300X and I was able to get a 4.5 GHZ OC using the B450 Prime so I am not worried about temps.


----------



## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> Again this "X570 = enthusiast, B550 = not enthusiast" distinction, and I still don't understand how different the two are, apart from the number of PCI-e lanes and USB ports, which not everybody needs a lot of, being a hardware enthusiast or not.
> 
> Edit: Is it a placebo effect that some people use to explain why they spent so much money on a motherboard that they don't need?


Well, if you don't understand the distinction, I think you are in the wrong thread, and maybe forum.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 25, 2020)

I will never own more than one gpu and one nvme drive, and I need no addon cards, my audio comes from high dac Modius and amp Asgard 2. so really B550 is great for me. i have no use for other features.

MSI B550 Tomahawk just came in stock at newegg briefly... I nabbed it 3 hours ago and its already shipped. I am going to leave it sealed until July 7th or whenever the new 3000 refresh series chips come out. my ram, psu, and case are all being re-used


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## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 25, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> I will never own more than one gpu and one nvme drive, and I need no addon cards, my audio comes from high dac Modius and amp Asgard 2. so really B550 is great for me. i have no use for other features.
> 
> MSI B550 Tomahawk just came in stock at newegg briefly... I nabbed it 3 hours ago and its already shipped. I am going to leave it sealed until July 7th or whenever the new 3000 refresh series chips come out. my ram, psu, and case are all being re-used


I'm thinking of doing the same thing for my HTPC setup. I'm going to wait for prices to normalize though so 3-4 months, it's not an emergency anyway for me..


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 25, 2020)

$ReaPeR$ said:


> Well, if you don't understand the distinction, I think you are in the wrong thread, and maybe forum.


That is not an answer to the question.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> That is not an answer to the question.


cause a 280 dollar board that'll take a 16 core cpu and pci-e 4.0 gpu is apparently mid range for this guy


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Not sure why you'd avoid that so long as you/people you are talking to understand you are talking tiers of hardware. Don't get lost in the minutia.


I avoid the term, because generally speaking, _people_ can be enthusiasts. _Hardware_ can't, it's just hardware.  

Also, looking at a few B550 boards out there, they might very well have been designed for enthusiasts who don't need a myriad of nvme drives.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> _Hardware_ can't, it's just hardware.


That's where we disagree. And though it is 'marketing' that's how it is done and classed. HEDT (X299/X399), Enthusiast (Z490/X570), Mainstream (B460/B550), Business (H class for Intel), Potato (lol). Remember the platform is defined by its chipset specifications/potential, not what AIBs put on the board/or not after. Board XXX is an enthusiast class motherboard.... features will vary within each bucket. Enthusiasts can find B550 (read: mainstream) attractive, it just depends on their uses/needs. But generally, an enthusiast class motherboard comes with all the features the platform offers, versus mainstream it is cut down. 

Are 3 NVMe drives a myriad? Because many B550 have two which is plenty already.


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jun 25, 2020)

Some B550 boards out there look very nice. GIGABYTE B550M Aorus Pro looks solid board for $129.  A 10+3 phase power delivery, PCIE4, two M.2 slots, and a Realtek ALC1200 HD audio codec, 9x USB/1x USB C, max DDR4-4733 capacity of 128 GB. I think it has what most users need.  I'll wait for the reviews and if thermals/OC are good I'll buy it in Q4 when prices fall and we can get it for around 100 bucks hopefully. Anything above 130 bucks is too much for B type of board imo.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> That's where we disagree. And though it is 'marketing' that's how it is done and classed. HEDT (X299/X399), Enthusiast (Z490/X570), Mainstream (B460/B550), Business (H class for Intel), Potato (lol). Remember the platform is defined by its chipset specifications/potential, not what AIBs put on the board/or not after. Board XXX is an enthusiast class motherboard.... features will vary within each bucket.
> 
> *Are 3 NVMe drives a myriad?* Because many B550 have two which is plenty already.


Depends on the person. For me it is, as I only ever need 1 maximum.

So basically B550 is mainstream (because it has no X in it?), even though it offers almost the same functionality as X570 does. Marketing or not, IMO a real enthusiast looks for quality, not for what the media tries to push down on people's throats with their silly categories.



RedelZaVedno said:


> Some B550 boards out there look very nice. GIGABYTE B550M Aorus Pro looks solid board for $129.  A 10+3 phase power delivery, PCIE4, two M.2 slots, and a Realtek ALC1200 HD audio codec, 9x USB/1x USB C, max DDR4-4733 capacity of 128 GB. I think it has what most users need.  I'll wait for the reviews and if thermals/OC are good I'll buy it in Q4 when we can get it around 100 bucks hopefully. Anything above 130 bucks is to much for B type of board imo.


Can someone tell me how this board is not an "enthusiast" board? Oh, no X in the chipset name, I get it.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> So basically B550 is mainstream (because it has no X in it?), even though it offers almost the same functionality as X570 does. Marketing or not, IMO a real enthusiast looks for quality, not for what the media tries to push down on people's throats with their silly categories.
> 
> Can someone tell me how this board is not an "enthusiast" board? Oh, no X in the chipset name, I get it.


I'm not sure you're understanding my posts (more so the distinction between a class of motherboard and a person). 

1. Please look up the differences between the B550 and X570 platform. From CPU support to PCIe lanes, it is NOT the same functionality...there is less of it.
2. I'm not trying to define PEOPLE here.... I'm trying to show the difference between the platforms and why they are labeled as such.
3. It isn't the media doing this, lol... read my posts! This is AMD and Intel defining the tiers of their chipsets which are allllllllllllllllllllllll different.

EDIT: There has always been and will always be crossover of features between chipsets. Just because B550 has similar bells and whistles, most of those (audio, Wi-Fi, power delivery, etc) are NOT defined by the chipset in the first place!


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> Can someone tell me how this board is not an "enthusiast" board? Oh, no X in the chipset name, I get it.


I get your point. To be truthful, B550 chipset is good enough for 99% of the users. I always buy only what I need, but most of PC enthusiasts get caught on branding & flashy look unfortunately. Thermals of some B550 $180 MB are on pair or even better than some $300 X470/X570 MBs out there, yet ppl still buy them, most of them for the look & prestige. Friend who owns retail PC shop told me be that he has to build flashy PCs full of leds in order to sell them... Top notch but dull workstations just won't sell. Good tech specs don't sell a product as much as good marketing/flashy look does unfortunately. That's why DIY PCs look more and more like toys for kids.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

RedelZaVedno said:


> I get your point. To be truthful, B550 chipset is good enough for 99% of the users. I always buy only what I need, but most of PC enthusiasts get caught on branding & flashy look unfortunately. Thermals of some B550 $180 MB are on pair or even better than some $300 X470/X570 MBs out there, yet ppl still buy them, most of them for the look & prestige. Friend who owns retail PC shop told me be that he has to build flashy PCs full of leds in order to sell them... Top notch but dull workstations just won't sell. Good tech specs don't sell a product as much as good marketing/flashy look does unfortunately. That's why DIY PCs look more and more like toys for kids.


B550 is good enough for most users... agreed!

It's funny because, to me, an enthusiast can look past the glitz and glam and understand what each platform is and what it offers you as a user. I'd expect someone "highly interested in a particular subject (as the word enthusiast is defined) would want to know the underlying hardware bits from the platform to the power delivery. That said, looks are important to many users... and VRM quality can be overrated. AMD can't overclock worth a hoot so is there really a difference besides a perfectly capable 10-phase 600A VRM and a 12-phase 600A? The end result (overclock) will be the same when using ambient cooling... but hey, moar phases = better to some. What about 10-phase 500A vs 12-phase 600A? On paper the latter 'wins' but in the end it means almost nothing to the end user.

The people buying the PCs likely aren't in the market for a workstation... typically those are provided by your company to do the work, first of all.

You also have to remember, B550 came after X570... and because of this, AIBs had the opportunity to learn from X570 experiences... larger heatsinks, similarly robust VRMs... and is it any better or worse running at 50C as opposed to 60C if both temperatures are well within operating range of the MOSFETs (remember, you're still cooling off a similar amount of wattage - temperature is different...).


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> That's where we disagree. And though it is 'marketing' that's how it is done and classed. HEDT (X299/X399), Enthusiast (Z490/X570), Mainstream (B460/B550), Business (H class for Intel), Potato (lol). Remember the platform is defined by its chipset specifications/potential, not what AIBs put on the board/or not after. Board XXX is an enthusiast class motherboard.... features will vary within each bucket. Enthusiasts can find B550 (read: mainstream) attractive, it just depends on their uses/needs. But generally, an enthusiast class motherboard comes with all the features the platform offers, versus mainstream it is cut down.
> 
> Are 3 NVMe drives a myriad? Because many B550 have two which is plenty already.


b460 and b550,lol.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> I'm not sure you're understanding my posts (more so the distinction between a class of motherboard and a person).
> 
> 1. Please look up the differences between the B550 and X570 platform. From CPU support to PCIe lanes, it is NOT the same functionality...there is less of it.
> 2. I'm not trying to define PEOPLE here.... I'm trying to show the difference between the platforms and why they are labeled as such.
> 3. It isn't the media doing this, lol... read my posts! This is AMD and Intel defining the tiers of their chipsets which are allllllllllllllllllllllll different.


1. As far as I know, CPU support is the same, X570 offers more PCI-e 4.0 lanes which not everybody needs. Based on this, both platforms are OK for enthusiasts and others alike.
2. That's what I mean!  The labelling is wrong as there are enthusiasts (people) and others who don't care much about PCs, just want something that works. Product labels shouldn't mean a thing to either group.
3. Sorry, I worded it wrong. AMD might be doing it _through_ the media, but it doesn't mean that a certain chipset branded as "enthusiast" can't be good for someone who just wants a generic PC, and another labelled as "mid-range" won't do for an enthusiast. Some boards with "mid-range" chipsets can offer enthusiast level of quality, especially nowadays.

All I'm saying is, this kind of product labelling is totally inaccurate regardless of whether AMD does it or the users themselves.


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> B550 is good enough for most users... agreed!
> 
> It's funny because, to me, an enthusiast can look past the glitz and glam and understand what each platform is and what it offers you as a user. I'd expect someone "highly interested in a particular subject - as the word enthusiast is defined) would want to know the underlying hardware bits from the platform to the power deliver. That said, looks are important to many users... and VRM quality can be overrated. AMD can't overclock worth a hoot so is there really a difference besides a perfectly capable 10-phase 600A VRM and a 12-phase 600A? The end result (overclock) will be the same when using ambient cooling... but hey, moar phases = better to some. What about 10-phase 500A vs 12-phase 600A? On paper the latter 'wins' but in the end it means almost nothing to the end user.
> 
> ...


The problem is that some X570 MBs throttle when paired with 3900x/3950X which is totally unacceptable in this price range. I can live with B450 Tomahawk/PRO4 temp throttling on 12C/16C CPU, but throttling on $200+ MBs is just unacceptable.


----------



## AusWolf (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> B550 is good enough for most users... agreed!
> 
> It's funny because, to me, *an enthusiast can look past the glitz and glam and understand what each platform is and what it offers you as a user*. I'd expect someone "highly interested in a particular subject (as the word enthusiast is defined) would want to know the underlying hardware bits from the platform to the power delivery. That said, looks are important to many users... and VRM quality can be overrated. AMD can't overclock worth a hoot so is there really a difference besides a perfectly capable 10-phase 600A VRM and a 12-phase 600A? The end result (overclock) will be the same when using ambient cooling... but hey, moar phases = better to some. What about 10-phase 500A vs 12-phase 600A? On paper the latter 'wins' but in the end it means almost nothing to the end user.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point!  That's why I'm saying that not every X570 board should be labelled "enthusiast", as well as not every B550 is "mid-range".

As for me, I care about VRM quality and cooling for longevity and space restriction-related reasons (overclocking is overrated anyway). You might have 60 C on your MOSFETs in a certain case with good airflow, but if you take a mini-ITX board with the same VRM configuration in a small chassis, you're going to have a much harder time dealing with temperatures. Swapping to a larger micro-ATX case with more fans did wonders with the VRM temperature on my ROG Strix B250i (it's still not great sometimes, but that's another story).


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> 1. As far as I know, CPU support is the same, X570 offers more PCI-e 4.0 lanes which not everybody needs. Based on this, both platforms are OK for enthusiasts and others alike.
> 2. That's what I mean!  The labelling is wrong as there are enthusiasts (people) and others who don't care much about PCs, just want something that works. Product labels shouldn't mean a thing to either group.
> 3. Sorry, I worded it wrong. AMD might be doing it _through_ the media, but it doesn't mean that a certain chipset branded as "enthusiast" can't be good for someone who just wants a generic PC, and another labelled as "mid-range" won't do for an enthusiast. Some boards with "mid-range" chipsets can offer enthusiast level of quality, especially nowadays.
> 
> All I'm saying is, this kind of product labelling is totally inaccurate regardless of whether AMD does it or the users themselves.


1. Of course not everyone needs that. HOwever, that doesn't take away the fact the platform labeled 'enthusiast' doesn't have more flexibility to use more M.2, run TWO PCIe slots at PCIe 4.0 with full bandwidth, etc.  Again you are mixing up a class of PEOPLE, verus a PLATFORM definition.
2. The labeling isn't wrong though. You keep saying enthusiast in reference to people.....which I could give two hoots about.
3. Jesus man... they aren't doing anything THROUGH the media!!! These are internal designations of platforms from Intel and AMD, lol!!!!!! I've said what you are saying after that repeatedly..welcome.

This kind of product labeling is spot on accurate. I'm sorry you seem to be unable to discern the difference. You can lead a horse to water, so they say. 


RedelZaVedno said:


> The problem is that some X570 MBs throttle when paired with 3900x/3950X which is totally unacceptable in this price range. I can live with B450 Tomahawk/PRO4 temp throttling on 12C/16C CPU, but throttling on $200+ MBs is just unacceptable.


X570 motherboards range from $120-zOMG too much... I'm not surprised some boards choke with a 3950x......you'll likely find the same with B550 motherboards too. You'd need to be more specific on which board to make a more valid point here.


AusWolf said:


> Exactly my point!  That's why I'm saying that not every X570 board should be labelled "enthusiast", as well as not every B550 is "mid-range".


lol...I can't help that your head cannot separate a platfrom definition from the features. BUt they are absolutely NOT inaccurate if you actually understand how platforms are defined (as most 'enthusiasts' can).

Good luck to you...we'll agree to disagree. 

EDIT: Here is a great article showing all of the differences between the platforms....








						AMD Chipset Comparison: B550 Specs vs. X570, B450, X370, & Zen 3 Support (2020)
					

This includes the intent of the 500-series chipsets to support Zen 3 architecture (reminder: that’s not the same as Ryzen 4000 mobile, nor is it the same as Ryzen 3000 desktop), while the existing B450 and X470 boards are left to cap-out at Ryzen 3000 series (Zen 2) parts. -




					www.gamersnexus.net
				



.


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## AusWolf (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> lol...I can't help that your head cannot separate a platfrom definition from the features. BUt they are absolutely NOT inaccurate if you actually understand how platforms are defined (as most 'enthusiasts' can).
> 
> Good luck to you...we'll agree to disagree.
> 
> ...


I understand the difference, but *it's minor*! It's not like comparing Intel's X299 and Z470 that are fundamentally different. We're talking about a few extra PCI-e 4.0 lanes and a slightly different USB layout, which in my eyes, cannot make the difference between "enthusiast" and "mid-range". CPU support is the same, RAM support is the same, BIOS/UEFI features are essentially the same (e.g. overclocking support), and they're both targeted at desktop users.

But ok, let's agree to disagree.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> I understand the difference, but *it's minor*! It's not like comparing Intel's X299 and Z470 that are fundamentally different. We're talking about a few extra PCI-e 4.0 lanes and a slightly different USB layout, which in my eyes, cannot make the difference between "enthusiast" and "mid-range". CPU support is the same, RAM support is the same, BIOS/UEFI features are essentially the same (e.g. overclocking support), and they're both targeted at desktop users.
> 
> But ok, let's agree to disagree.


Well, your mind didn't define these and taken its own liberties to blur the lines... your choice. 

Peace out.


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> X570 motherboards range from $120-zOMG too much... I'm not surprised some boards choke with a 3950x......you'll likely find the same with B550 motherboards too. You'd need to be more specific on which board to make a more valid point here.


VRM throttled (+100C) with R9 3900X, auto Vcore (open case test - 1H stress test):
MSI X570-A PRO - $150
MSI MPG X570 Gaming Edge WIFI -$290
________________________
Close to VRM throttling on 3900X (80C+) & throttled on 3950X:
Asrock X570 PRO4 - $200
Asrock X570 Steel Legend - $220
Gigabyte X570 Gaming X - $200

All of these boards should be able to sustain 3900X/3950 especially the ones with PRO label. That's why uneducated consumer buys X570. Not everyone is tech nerd to know all the details about the board. I can easily see encoding something not knowing that I'm losing precious time, because my CPU is working on lower frequency then it should.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

Some inexpensive B550s will do that same, bud... though since this is the second go around they likely won't make that mistake (as often). But this has been going on since as long as I can remember. Again, the chipset and what comes with it DOES NOT define features which include the VRM. The sooner those questioning this segmentation realize that, the better off they'll be.

I'm sorry you guys don't like grey areas...there is something to be said for being an educated consumer...this isn't rocket science for anyone who considers themselves 'enthusiasts'.

PS - Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear warefare. If it isn't throttling, it isn't throttling. 

You realize that almost every board you listed there are bottom of the barrel X570, right?


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Some inexpensive B550s will do that same, bud... though since this is the second go around they likely won't make that mistake (as often). But this has been going on since as long as I can remember. Again, the chipset and what comes with it DOES NOT define features which include the VRM. The sooner those questioning this segmentation realize that, the better off they'll be.
> 
> I'm sorry you guys don't like grey areas...there is something to be said for being an educated consumer...this isn't rocket science for anyone who considers themselves 'enthusiasts'.
> 
> ...


Isn't throttling yet.  Run some app that utilizes Nvidia's cuda cores to full extend besides CPU's cores and you get eggs baking temps soon enough  Joking aside "PRO" naming in my eyes means prosumer ready MB and as such it should support prosumer CPUs (3900X/3950X) to full extend.


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## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

RedelZaVedno said:


> Isn't throttling yet.  Run some app that utilizes Nvidia's cuda cores to full extend besides CPU's cores and you get eggs baking temps soon enough


I'm not going to debate the merits of case airflow here...

Just understand that you've cherry picked (mostly) the least expensive boards from X570. And while I agree with the overall sentiment that they shouldn't throttle, this begs the question of why the hell is anyone pairing the cheapest X570 board they could find with a flagship CPU in the first place?

That, and...again........ the chipset/platform does NOT define how the BOARD PARTNERS implement their VRM.

Knowledge is power. And for those who don't/won't look can get burned. Your other choice was to go B450 with, overall has lesser VRM's than X570 so you had even more potential to be screwed there, but now B550 came out with the best of BOTH worlds...

I really feel like the big picture perspective is missing for some.


----------



## $ReaPeR$ (Jun 25, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> That is not an answer to the question.


Yes it is. I don't like to repeat myself. Check my previous comments and try do differentiate between AMD and mobo makers, they are not the same entity. 


cucker tarlson said:


> cause a 280 dollar board that'll take a 16 core cpu and pci-e 4.0 gpu is apparently mid range for this guy


AMD has a chipset segmentation, now, if gigabyte or other companies want to make 280 dollar b550 board that is not AMD s problem. Get it? Board makers want to saturate their respective market and they do it by creating 30987776666778 boards with the same damn chipset. Unless you would prefer AMD to artificially lock the b550 like Intel does. IMO that would be moronic.


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jun 25, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Some inexpensive B550s will do that same, bud... though since this is the second go around they likely won't make that mistake (as often). But this has been going on since as long as I can remember. Again, the chipset and what comes with it DOES NOT define features which include the VRM. The sooner those questioning this segmentation realize that, the better off they'll be.
> 
> I'm sorry you guys don't like grey areas...there is something to be said for being an educated consumer...this isn't rocket science for anyone who considers themselves 'enthusiasts'.
> 
> ...



It would have been nice for the board vendors to have put some disclaimers with their 3900x/3950x CPU compatibility lists like "Requires advanced VRM cooling or with ECO mode recommended".
I'm surprised that aftermarket "enthusiast" grade heat-sinks didn't become more a thing with AM4 considering all the attention that VRM's have gotten with that platform.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 25, 2020)

A Computer Guy said:


> It would have been nice for the board vendors to have put some disclaimers with their 3900x/3950x CPU compatibility lists like "Requires advanced VRM cooling or with ECO mode recommended".


No doubt... but this has been an issue generation after generation after generation, and more so from AMD (Looking at FX 8350+ and those motherboards spanning generations where only a handful of boards could manage without additional cooling).


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## Gmr_Chick (Jun 26, 2020)

@EarthDog, save your breath, my dude. I'm not sure AusWolf and RedelZaVedno will ever quite get it no matter how much you attempt to clarify it. Let it be, and save yourself a headache in the process


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## AusWolf (Jun 26, 2020)

Gmr_Chick said:


> @EarthDog, save your breath, my dude. I'm not sure AusWolf and RedelZaVedno will ever quite get it no matter how much you attempt to clarify it. Let it be, and save yourself a headache in the process


So just because I disagree with badging motherboards as "enthusiast-grade" based only on what chipset they have on them, you think I have no understanding of how a VRM can overheat. No offence, but that's an extremely dumb conclusion.

On the other hand, I was never even mentioned in this conversation, so what I will _never ever quite get_ is why you had to bring my name up this time.

Edit: BTW, I agree with @EarthDog on this, as I used to own an FX-based system, and overheating was definitely an issue (VRM included). It wouldn't hurt to wait for an answer before you point out how ignorant people are.


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## A Computer Guy (Jun 26, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> So just because I disagree with badging motherboards as "enthusiast-grade" based only on what chipset they have on them...



I probably also have a similar point of view as I have always thought of "enthusiast-grade" boards as having more niche or specialty features compared to mainstream boards within the same class (regardless if that feature is supplied by the chipset or not).  For example boards having more exotic embedded controllers (SCSI/SAS, Creative Audio, Corsair RGB, Thunderbolt 3, 10G LAN, etc...) or rare features not typically found on mainstream boards (LN2, extra sensors, bios flashback, extra layers,  unique design features, etc...) Sometimes 3rd party add-ons might contribute to a boards "enthusiast-grade" such as availability of exotic water blocks or other specialty hardware or mods for that board.

Of course when certain things become popular then the industry starts to follow and things become more common like RGB controllers are found in a lot of motherboards these days.


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## jayseearr (Jun 26, 2020)

RedelZaVedno said:


> VRM throttled (+100C) with R9 3900X, auto Vcore (open case test - 1H stress test):
> MSI X570-A PRO - $150
> MSI MPG X570 Gaming Edge WIFI -$290
> ________________________
> ...



Agree with you there, you left out the pro carbon too which has exceptionally terrible thermals on higher cores...

Call me crazy, but i think if a board says compatible with with ryzen 3000 series cpus...i expect it not to throttle with a stock ryzen 3000  series cpu...?..
In cases like the pro carbon and gaming edge they are upwards of 250-300$ USD...that's a fairly pretty penny to be paying for a board with atrocious thermals.

Obviously it's too late to go back in time and fix existing packaging or user manuals but you would expect in situations like these that the manufacturer would at least go back and rectify the information on their website right? it's never too late to fix that...but in this case maybe i missed it but i browsed the manufacturer website and i didn't notice any amendments. But i definitely noticed the part where they boasted these boards "heavy duty heatsinks, and reliable processor power delivery".
-_-






						MPG X570 GAMING EDGE WIFI
					

Worth buying AMD AM4 X570 ATX gaming motherboard, lightning PCIe 4.0, lightning M.2, lightning M.2, Frozr heatsink, WiFi, USB 3.2 Gen 2, M.2 heatsink, good overclocking, extended heatsink, pre-install I/O, MSI GAMING




					www.msi.com
				








						MPG X570 GAMING PRO CARBON WIFI
					

Best AMD AM4 X570 ATX gaming motherboard, lightning PCIe 4.0, two lightning M.2, Frozr heatsink, Intel LAN, WiFi 6, USB 3.2 Gen 2 and Mystic Light, M.2 heatsink, powerful overclocking, pre-install I/O, MSI GAMING




					www.msi.com
				




Not intentionally trying to single out MSI, i actually just bought an msi board.. but truth is truth. 
I guess it's why (to earthdog's point) it's always important to do the consumer homework before making a purchase. If we all just took the manufacturers word for it every time (regardless of whether they are generally known for having good products or not) then alot of us would only be asking for disappointment


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## EarthDog (Jun 26, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> So just because I disagree with badging motherboards as "enthusiast-grade" based only on what chipset they have on them, you think I have no understanding of how a VRM can overheat. No offence, but that's an extremely dumb conclusion.
> 
> On the other hand, I was never even mentioned in this conversation, so what I will _never ever quite get_ is why you had to bring my name up this time.


Gmr was talking about how you designate motherboards... nothing else. Hackles down... move on. 



A Computer Guy said:


> I probably also have a similar point of view as I have always thought of "enthusiast-grade" boards as having more niche or specialty features compared to mainstream boards within the same class....


Now you know how they are actually classified. 

Features bleed within mainstream/enthusiast/hedt etc. We can make some generalizations about the platforms, but features which are not tied to a chipset will show on different segments of boards.


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## A Computer Guy (Jun 26, 2020)

jayseearr said:


> ....
> Call me crazy, but i think if a board says compatible with with ryzen 3000 series cpus...i expect it not to throttle with a stock ryzen 3000  series cpu...?..
> In cases like the pro carbon and gaming edge they are upwards of 250-300$ USD...that's a fairly pretty penny to be paying for a board with atrocious thermals.
> ....



I agree and am quite frankly surprised that the vendors didn't try to segment their product lines a bit more (in marketing) between boards that can comfortably use 8 cores vs 16 cores.  This would have been helpful for the consumer to make a better choice in motherboard selection.  



jayseearr said:


> ....
> I guess it's why (to earthdog's point) it's always important to do the consumer homework before making a purchase. If we all just took the manufacturers word for it every time (regardless of whether they are generally known for having good products or not) then a lot of us would only be asking for disappointment



Unfortunately sometimes the consumer doesn't always find the right information at the right time when they need it.  For example when I bought my motherboard I did't realize the extent to which there was misrepresentation among vendors regarding advertised motherboard VRM's.
And you can imagine my surprise after building my system only to see these videos later.


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## jayseearr (Jun 26, 2020)

I understand computer guy...I wouldn't necessarily say it's ALWAYS a bad idea to buy a board as soon as it first comes out, but i think it's fair to say it's inherently more "dangerous" in these regards. Sure, a small sample of reviewers may get the product before it launches but it's always better to have a wider pool of reviews in terms of realistic consumer applications,experiences and such.


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## A Computer Guy (Jun 26, 2020)

Humm...trying to get back to the original OP question.

DOA...yea I think so...agreed.

If I was a new buyer I might choose B550 cause the idea of returning to the need for a chipset fan kinda bothers me however if I needed the extra PCIe lanes that would be the determining factor for sure.  Most importantly if the price point difference was close enough in comparison (between boards with equal VRM quality) then X570 wins hands down.  After all why pay the same price for less?

A possible factor in favor of B550 might be a bit more quality and stability in terms of BIOS updates since it doesn't have to worry about as much as X570 having to support older CPU's but only time will tell.  Also with the delay of B550 the vendors had gotten some time to see what didn't work with X570 and hopefully any lessons learned there would allow them to make B550 boards better.

For now I'll be sticking with my X470 and will wait and see what the next socket offers mainly because my setup has been rock stable and I've settled for using it for my daily.


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## Gmr_Chick (Jun 27, 2020)

AusWolf said:


> So just because I disagree with badging motherboards as "enthusiast-grade" based only on what chipset they have on them,* you think I have no understanding of how a VRM can overheat. No offence, but that's an extremely dumb conclusion.*
> 
> On the other hand, I was never even mentioned in this conversation, so what I will _never ever quite get_ is why you had to bring my name up this time.
> 
> Edit: BTW, I agree with @EarthDog on this, as I used to own an FX-based system, and overheating was definitely an issue (VRM included). It wouldn't hurt to wait for an answer before you point out how ignorant people are.



Firstly, don't put words in my mouth. I never said you DIDN'T have any understanding of how VRMs can overheat. Second, yeah I think you are failing to miss the points @EarthDog has attempted to get across to you, and that is that "Mainstream", "Enthusiast" and "HEDT" are merely board* tiers *and in no way dictate *WHO* can purchase them, which is what you seem to think -- i.e average user can only buy boards that are "mainstream"; more particular user can only buy "Enthusiast" and/or "HEDT". My dude, these terms are *just used to describe different motherboard tiers*, but at the end of the day, you're free to buy whatever the fuck you want.


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## terroralpha (Jun 27, 2020)

the problem with b550 is not capabilities, expansion or any technical spec. the problem is *THE PRICE*

b550 cost only like 10% less than their X570 counter parts. it doesn't make sense saving $20 on a $200 and lose a lot of potential expansion.

for example, my VR rig (pic attached) has a gigabyte X570i ITX board. i paid about $220 for it. the B550 version is $200, only $20 less, and you lose the second M.2 PCI-E 4.0 slot. it becomes a 3.0 slot. you leave a lot of potential on the table. my rig is running a RAID 0 config which i'm planning to upgrade to 4.0 once samsung finally drops their 4.0 drives.

on a full size board, you are giving up the ability to use multi GPUs in PCI-E 4.0 config. you are giving up the second PCI-E 4.0 M.2 slot. it's dumb. the savings aren't worth it.

if B550 boards were better priced, i would have no problems recommending them to people and buying one myself, because most builds will be using 1 expansion slot and 1 M.2 slot anyway. but right now it makes no sense.


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## Caring1 (Jun 27, 2020)

Gmr_Chick said:


> but at the end of the day, you're free to buy whatever the fuck you want.


 You sure you're a Lady?


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## Gmr_Chick (Jun 27, 2020)

Yes. I'm a lady who just happens to swear like a sailor. It's like breathing for me, honestly.


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## A Computer Guy (Jun 27, 2020)

Gmr_Chick said:


> Yes. I'm a lady who just happens to swear like a sailor. It's like breathing for me, honestly.


I know some sailors too but that's getting a little off topic.


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## CubanB (Jun 28, 2020)

Personally, I think AMD have done a great job in the last few years with their Ryzen CPU's but sort of messed up the motherboard/chipset side of things, and I've had a hard time finding something that fits my needs.  Money isn't an issue, but even without that.. I've had a hard time finding something that fits my needs compared to a 6 year old Haswell motherboard that I've never had a problem with.

X370 is actually my preferred choice in terms of peripherals, USB, SATA, PCIE etc.  X470 is good too.  Not a fan of X570 (get it? haha).  I was going to stay with X370 but AMD said recently they wouldn't support them.  Maybe there will be unofficial or beta BIOS.  So I picked up a an X470 as a backup.  Now I'm looking at B550, and I understand the general premise of this thread and pretty much agree with it.  But not just for B550, but for all of them.

The compatibility and upgrade options for AM4 are great, but it's also kind of a mess.  There's one B550 that appeals to me, the rest are undesired.  But it's a bit like that with all of them.. a series of compromises.  The reason I care about 4000 series compatibility is because it's the last CPU for AM4 socket.. and years from now, I'll most likely wish I had one.  Or to the very least.. I will wish for the potential of that option.. whether it be buying used, at a discounted price.. whatever.  It's the strength/advantage of AMD over Intel, but it's become so complicated with so many question marks.  And the B550 series doesn't do much to solve it.

By the way, there's more than just a chipset fan issue with X570.  There's an idle wattage inefficiency compared to other chipsets, and since I use my CPU 24/7 a lot of the time.. that matters (over the years, the extra wattage adds up).  There's also a SATA transfer bottleneck when it comes to random 4k reads and writes.  There's been improvements in other things over the last 12 months (PCB, VRM, asthetics), but in a lot of ways, they've gone backwards for my needs.  There's more options when it comes to using m.2 drives in raid at high speeds, but outside of that.. some of the other options have regressed.  Maybe I should be looking at Threadripper platform and what I/O options are out there but that's a huge jump in price.. when all I really need is 8-16 cores.

So it's a big thumbs up for me on the CPU side, and a big thumbs down on the motherboard/chipset side.  I don't even need PCIE4.0, but I need plenty of PCIE and SATA expandability.  If you look at the B550 Gigabyte Auros Master, that is the exact polar opposite of what I need.  Where as the ASUS Crosshair Hero VI is perfect.  Perhaps the answer is to keep the 3000 series CPU and be happy with it, but in a few years the lower latency and extra performance of the 4000 series could be beneficial.  While waiting for the DDR5 based systems to improve effeciency and for the price to reduce.  On the plus side, I'll have lots of spare parts to build a second "spare parts" Ryzen system, and having two systems is great for troubleshooting if any hardware problems arise.  And 5 years from now.. who nows what the motherboards will look like.  Who knows if you will even be able to buy a case or a mouse that doesn't have glittering lights all over it.



INSTG8R said:


> See I “almost“ bought a Gen4 SSD(MX500) but ended up going Gen3(970 Evo Plus) because despite being just Gen 3 it’s still  faster across the  board except in reads. So while I can make use of Gen4 it doesn’t actually benefit me in  the end. Nor will my 5700XT benefit from a  Gen4 slot. Nice to have but offers no ”extras value” or was part of my purchase decision(okay it was until I searched for an M2)


 Same, I prefer Samsung Gen3 over the Gen4 options.  Samsung will have Gen4 options out soon but they won't be cheap.

AMD have put a whole lot of stock into Gen 4 (with a ton of downsides) that doesn't even have many real world benefits, outside of 4K video editing or other similar things.  In a few years, the GPU side might kick in and there might be an advantage but even then, it might only be on the top end GPU's that most can't afford.  In the meantime.. it's all a bit "blah" for me.

Something else that's rarely talked about.. is that these m.2 drives run hot vs SATA SSD.  The Gen 4 drives run even hotter.  Especially if you have a heap of them.  Heat inside of a case is a bad thing.  Especially for noise.  During a game, the GPU fan noise might be blocked by the sound of the game itself but when working on something, there's less noise to cover it up.  There's an arguement for SATA SSD, if you don't mind the slower speeds.  In terms of Windows loading times, it's not that much slower than M.2 NVME.  I went with the same Gen 3 drive as you did (one of them).. but my point is.. I'm not in a rush to add three of them onto a board, having Gen 4 would be even worse.  But that seems to be where the motherboards are headed.. where they are assuming that everyone wants to do that.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 28, 2020)

CubanB said:


> Personally, I think AMD have done a great job in the last few years with their Ryzen CPU's but sort of messed up the motherboard/chipset side of things, and I've had a hard time finding something that fits my needs.  Money isn't an issue, but even without that.. I've had a hard time finding something that fits my needs compared to a 6 year old Haswell motherboard that I've never had a problem with.
> 
> X370 is actually my preferred choice in terms of peripherals, USB, SATA, PCIE etc.  X470 is good too.  Not a fan of X570 (get it? haha).  I was going to stay with X370 but AMD said recently they wouldn't support them.  Maybe there will be unofficial or beta BIOS.  So I picked up a an X470 as a backup.  Now I'm looking at B550, and I understand the general premise of this thread and pretty much agree with it.  But not just for B550, but for all of them.
> 
> ...


In this wall of text, did you actually mention what you need or what was messed up on the chipsets? I see the mention of a fan... but, on almost all boards they are inaudible and adjustable. Whats the beef?

Idle power use? A couple watts is an issue?

Sata 4k transfer problem? Link...please! 

What other options have regressed?

What do you actually need that is missing? What are you compromising? I see you mention board A doesnt work, but board B does. Whats tbe dofference?

I'd be more onboard, but this feels like a lot of text with few details.


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## CubanB (Jun 28, 2020)

I'm not looking for advice, it's not like I need to you solve my problem.  There's not really anyway that anyone can, other than scaling down my expansion options.. which is strange that a 6 year system can do it, an X370 can kind of do it.. but since X470, it's become more and more restrictive.  PCI slots, SATA slots, USB slots.. and the combination of these things.  It's the advantage of a PC, vs a console or a laptop.  The ability to customize or expand.. or have many different options.  The Gigabyte flagship B550 doesn't even have a USB3.1 Gen 2 internal header, it's 2020 for pete sake.

What's missing is options.. I don't use my PC soley for gaming.  I use it for a bit of everything.  Audio editing (or recording), Video editting (or capturing), Media Center with automated recording, network storage, and on and on.  Instead, I'll have to be swapping out PCIE all of the time, want a DVB-T2 card?  Better take the capture card out, or the audio MIDI card.. etc etc.  Perhaps I'm supposed to buy multiple systems, one for audio stuff, one for gaming or video stuff, but I've never had to do this in the past.

What I expect over time is improved efficiency and performance.  More options, not less.  Better idle performance.  Better peak performance.  Less power consumption.  A constant evolution of improvements.. maybe I'm wrong but I thought this was to be expected and is self explanatory.  The CPU's achieve most of these goals (even though the first six months was a bit rough because of the advertised boost speeds and constant AGESA updates), but the motherboards don't.

There seems to be a priority over aesthetics, lights and peak gaming performance, and now.. for some strange reason.. storage speeds, which are kind of important, but also kind of a niche thing.  To put it into perspective.. a SATA SSD will load Windows a few seconds slower than a Gen 3 NVME.  Four or five to the most.  Games.. it's more like a second or two difference.  Going from Gen 3 to Gen 4, you're only going to notice it in niche situations like 4K video editing.  Benchmark numbers in CrystalDiskMark make the difference seem quite larger but side by side running two PC's at the same time, the difference is quite small for most things.  Regressions.. higher idle wattage (and voltage), both from the CPU itself and especially for the motherboards (this is probably fixed in B550), SATA transfer problem (minor but still a thing), higher cost, less SATA or PCIE expansion, and this is unprovable at this point.. but my guess is less longevity in the long term.  Because the smaller a fan is, the more prone it is to fail.  Even GPU fans aren't ideal but at least ordering replacements is possible.  I've only seen Noctua's last the test of time in terms of lasting more than 5 years.  It might not be an issue for some people, but throwing a whole GPU or motherboard away into a landfill because a $10 plastic fan doesn't work anymore is very wasteful.  As opposed to a hand me down to a family member or selling it on the used market where someone else can make use of it.  If it's six years from now and those X570's are going strong, I'll stand corrected.


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## EarthDog (Jun 28, 2020)

That's a bit better... lol... and I didn't say you were looking for advice. That long post left me longing for any/more/detailed information on what you were saying, it like skipped across the surface.

It simply seems for your options you need to be in an enthusiast or HEDT level platform where all of the lanes etc are available.  A majority of users aren't trying to run capture cards and DVB-T2 cards and [insert card here] on these more basic platforms which is why B550 exists.

Repeating issues without sources (sata speed you keep mentioning) isn't supporting them. Im sure it exists, but I'd like to read about it through a reputable source. 

RE: X570 fans... mobo vendors support them... and truthfully, unless you are using gobs of PCIe 4.0 connectivity (as most are not), it isn't needed in the first place. And again, most aren't even audible. 

Anyway, not going down this hole again... especially dancing around vague assertions. 

Cheers.


----------



## CubanB (Jun 29, 2020)

I'm sure for a majority of users, they could be happy with anything.  For them X570 is great.  Anything could be great especially if the marketing says so.  But isn't it a bit wierd, that for my needs X370 flagship board is best, X470 board is ok (but not ideal) and that X570 and B550 is compromised?  I would have thought it would be the other way around.

Again, money is not the issue (AMD take my money), but after a few years out of the game.. I've followed AMD Reddit quite closely in the last 12 months.  I've seen lots of patterns.  Firstly.. they want everything cheap.  Guess what AMD isn't a budget brand anymore, they are close to being the superior platform.  If you look at the next few years, you could argue they ARE the superior platform if you factor the next few years into it.  But I've seen other things.. for example, if it's newer it HAS to be better.  Or B550 HAS to be worse than X570 because the numbers and letters say so.  It's more complicated than that.  And I've also seen a lot of X570 users reject any criticisms of the platform, because it was released with the great 3000 series processors.. therefore it ALL has to be great.  Or they just want to ignore any buyers remorse.  Which isn't fun.. but it's nice to be aware of what you got and what is out there.  My argument is that AMD has taken their CPU's to the next level.. however both X570 and B550 are disappointments.  Not because they don't work.. but because they aren't an evolution/progression.. it's more of a compromise with lots of flaws.  Now with COVID, older boards are becoming rare and prices are being gouged.  So it's like "newer platform or nothing".  Not ideal..

I want AMD to succeed, but I've seen a lot of flaws in the last 12 months.  One the one hand, I'm happy because I want them to succeed and they are gaining more support.  They are more consumer friendly.  I think the variety they offer.. where they let you run different boards or chipsets is great.  It's such a huge advantage over Intel.  Rather than being "stuck".  It creates good faith within the community.. it makes it easy to recommend them to friends.  You have many different upgrade paths.  On the other hand.. it's been a disorganized illogical mess.. where for example.. they claim that a 32MB BIOS chip is needed, yet there are X570 boards that shipped with a 16MB chip.  They announced B450 and X470 wouldn't support 4000 series chips and then went back on their word based on a bunch of convoluted double talk.  They delayed B550 and basically forced everyone onto a motherboard that has a chipset fan.  I want to support you AMD, but you gotta work with me here.  X670 could be great if they optimized their chipset.  But you could argue, they should have done that all along.  3000 series chips in X470 boards would have already been great.  One final note.. it's pretty funny that board makers use high end VRM as an excuse to jack up price.. yet the strength of the chips is that they are so energy efficient compared to Intel and don't require a high VRM in the first place.  Things that make you go hmmm.

edit - here is a graph about the minor SATA issue.. I could go back and trace where it came from (somewhere on AMD Reddit).. but it's hard to find.. because for whatever reason.. X570 is seen as best.  Even if it's flawed.



http://imgur.com/0mVfjeO


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jun 29, 2020)

CubanB said:


> ......
> edit - here is a graph about the minor SATA issue.. I could go back and trace where it came from (somewhere on AMD Reddit).. but it's hard to find.. because for whatever reason.. X570 is seen as best.  Even if it's flawed.
> .....



I think I found the reddit post you are referring to....


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/fwh7q0


----------



## Gmr_Chick (Jun 29, 2020)

CubanB said:


> I'm sure for a majority of users, they could be happy with anything.  For them X570 is great.  Anything could be great especially if the marketing says so.  But isn't it a bit wierd, that for my needs X370 flagship board is best, X470 board is ok (but not ideal) and that X570 and B550 is compromised?  I would have thought it would be the other way around.
> 
> Again, money is not the issue (AMD take my money), but after a few years out of the game.. I've followed AMD Reddit quite closely in the last 12 months.  I've seen lots of patterns.  Firstly.. they want everything cheap.  Guess what AMD isn't a budget brand anymore, they are close to being the superior platform.  If you look at the next few years, you could argue they ARE the superior platform if you factor the next few years into it.  But I've seen other things.. for example, if it's newer it HAS to be better.  Or B550 HAS to be worse than X570 because the numbers and letters say so.  It's more complicated than that.  And I've also seen a lot of X570 users reject any criticisms of the platform, because it was released with the great 3000 series processors.. therefore it ALL has to be great.  Or they just want to ignore any buyers remorse.  Which isn't fun.. but it's nice to be aware of what you got and what is out there.  My argument is that AMD has taken their CPU's to the next level.. however both X570 and B550 are disappointments.  Not because they don't work.. but because they aren't an evolution/progression.. it's more of a compromise with lots of flaws.  Now with COVID, older boards are becoming rare and prices are being gouged.  So it's like "newer platform or nothing".  Not ideal..
> 
> ...



OK, first, Intel's 10th gen CPUs don't have an efficiency problem compared to AMDs. The problem lies solely on the motherboard makers (excluding Asus) and their refusal to adhere to the guidelines Intel put in place for these 10th Gen chips (but it sounds like it's been going on since Z270, according to the GN article I'm citing) because moar power equals better performance in reviews. 

Just going to leave this here.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/...erboards-with-default-settings-for-your-build


----------



## A Computer Guy (Jun 29, 2020)

CubanB said:


> .... One final note.. it's pretty funny that board makers use high end VRM as an excuse to jack up price.. yet the strength of the chips is that they are so energy efficient compared to Intel and don't require a high VRM in the first place.  ....



Better VRM's do add more cost to make.  I think part of the reason for the better VRM's in 500 series is because the 3900x/3950x actually exist and people will buy them.  With so many cores motherboards eventually going to have a meltdown without an efficient VRM and/or cooling solution to help manage heat.  (I'm exaggerating a bit I know)  Prior to 500 series it might have been a bit of a pipe-dream among the vendors to think AMD was going to pull off what they have accomplished today in core count.   Nowadays the situation is different and I suspect to protect from bad press they really need to make sure their new boards can really take a 12/16 core practically (without thermal issues) now that people are much more likely to drop in a higher core CPU due to reduced prices.


----------



## CubanB (Jun 29, 2020)

But 3950X uses less power than 2700X.  Actually, it's probably more power.. it just depends on the settings and which AGESA version you are using.  It's just that I saw a review early on where that was the case.  But most of the time, it's the other way around.

But still, it usually uses less power than 3900X (better binning).  The 7nm process is quite efficient, considering 3950X has double the cores of 2700X and is only a few years older for example.  Obviously when you push things and OC, it's nice to have capable VRM for lower temps inside the case.  More stable power delivery etc.  A powerful VRM isn't a bad thing.. but yeah.  Ryzen 3000 doesn't really benefit from OC.  So you can run things stock and not really lose much.  I actually like strong VRM because it comes back to my "more options" philosophy of PC.  You might not think you need it, but a few years from now.. you might change your mind, and pick up a 3950X for example, and if you decide to OC.. you are already good to go.  My main point is that wattage hasn't really changed, the efficiency has improved on each generation meaning the power consumption for the CPU's in general has (roughly) stayed the same.  So the focus on VRM within the last 12 months is more about AMD getting more recognition of a great product, rather than extra power requirements.  The recent Asrock boards for Intel were bad, but quite good for B550.  It seems Asrock put more focus into the AMD side of things.  Maybe they all are.

And yeah, the 3950X does use more than 2700X but not that much more.. within the same ballpark.  My X370 can run a 3950X fine, people with the board have done it and said there are no problems with VRM temps or anything.  There's also plenty of X470 that can run it.  IMO it's a really great CPU, but most of the 3000 series are.









						AMD Ryzen 9 3950X review
					

The review today hardly will need an introduction, the monolith has arrived, the consumer, and not even HEDT, the sixteen-core processor in the Ryzen 3000 family, the Ryzen 9 3950X. It is fast, feist... Power Consumption and temperatures




					www.guru3d.com
				




And here's a thing about the idle performance.  For example, why is an 8 core 2700X on 12nm+ have so much better idle consumption than a 6 core 7nm.









						AMD Ryzen 9 3950X Review - Benchmarks: Power Consumption
					

The pinnacle of AMD's Zen2 architecture, at least in the AM4 format, is the 16-core, 32-thread behemoth codenamed the AMD Ryzen 9 3950X. Today we take a look and show you just what it's capable of....



					www.vortez.net
				




I believe it's partly the way AMD uses the boost with high voltages (to avoid a lawsuit, reaching peak boost speeds under low loads) and partially the inefficiencies of the latest gen of motherboards.  I haven't seen any B550 reviews talk about power consumption, but I assume they are fixed.

Yeah it's fixed..









						Gigabyte B550 Aorus Master review
					

Finally, B550 Chipset based motherboards are here. We start off with a very premium B550 Aorus Master, loaded with 2.5 GigE Ethernet, AX WIFI6 and three M2 NVMe slots we wonder if this awesome mother... Power Consumption




					www.guru3d.com
				









I am a fan of these CPU's.. and to an extent the platform itself.. it's just that I can't unsee a lot of stuff that's been glossed over in the last 12 months.  I hope that AMD can iron this stuff out before switching to AM5 socket.  4000 series is set to be really good.


----------



## Filip Georgievski (Jun 29, 2020)

What is all this fuss about B550 and X570?
I mean, yea, there are all kinds of boards out there from these 2 chipset lineups, but why fuss over something that is so simple to see and realise?

Lets brake down on VRM design for most CPUs:

6 - 8 VRMs - Athlon 3000 to Ryzen 3 3300x
10 VRMs - Ryzen 5 3400g to Ryzen 7 3700
12 - 14 VRMs - Anything above Ryzen 7 3700 

This is my table of choise when i go shoping for a mobo for a specific CPU.

Me, specificaly have a X570 A PRO from MSI which has a 10 VRMs and a Ryzen 5 3600 on it, going strong with all core 4.1Ghz boost, and a chipset fan that keeps my chipset at 48c nomatter what i do. 

Now for comparison i've seen b450 boards with 8 VRMs that also run ryzen 5 3600 that cant get past 3.850Ghz on all core boost, which indicates lower VRM quality, design and cooling as well.

I imagine B550 boards will be similar to B450s, but ive seen boards that have better design like for ex. B550 Tomahawk which has 10 VRMs on it and probably will be similar price to my X570, but it is still a nice board non the less.


----------



## EarthDog (Jun 29, 2020)

Filip Georgievski said:


> What is all this fuss about B550 and X570?
> I mean, yea, there are all kinds of boards out there from these 2 chipset lineups, but why fuss over something that is so simple to see and realise?
> 
> Lets brake down on VRM design for most CPUs:
> ...


If only it was that easy...going by vrm count. There are significant differences between them. Are they doubled? What about MOSFET Amperage? Id take 6-phase 90A FETs than 10-phase doubled w/ 50A FETs... for example. 

B550 boards are, generally, more robust than b450. Reviews have been all over for weeks and part of what this thread talked about already.


----------



## milewski1015 (Jun 30, 2020)

Filip Georgievski said:


> What is all this fuss about B550 and X570?
> I mean, yea, there are all kinds of boards out there from these 2 chipset lineups, but why fuss over something that is so simple to see and realise?
> 
> Lets brake down on VRM design for most CPUs:
> ...


What do you mean what is all the fuss about between B550 and X570? The entire point of the thread is discussing whether B550 is DOA and a large part of that is the feature overlap/price similarity to X570. As @EarthDog said, not all VRMs are created equal. You imply that the difference between B550 and X570 is "simple to see and realize", citing VRM phase count as a point of differentiation, but then go on to double back on that by bringing up high phase-count B550 boards. I can't tell what you're arguing for or against here.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 30, 2020)

In a void absent of human emotion no one would objectively buy a B550 priced the same as it's X570  variant. I give you the As Rock Taichi in Canada the B550 is $489.99 and the X570 is $489.99 (I do believe it has a mail in rebate too). However the argument for B550 does exist in give scenarios (emotion). B550 is perfect for HTPC. Given that the lower end boards are justified in their price markup for what you get. A Wifi 6 adapter card is $45 on Amazon. You cannot rewire a B450 board to run PCIe 4.0 anything and B550 gives you the flexibility of taking your PCIe 3.0 drive and keep using it as your OS. Then you have to factor in the low end Ryzen parts. 3100X (4.5 GHZ OC), 3300X (4.5 GHZ OC), 1600AF (4.3 GHZ OC), 2600 (4.2 GHZ OC), 3600 and 3400G are all well priced CPUs that will surprise you in their ability, especially Gaming but $300 to $400 (Canadian) for a MB and CPU today is not too shabby at all. People can say what they want about core counts in consoles that haven't  launched yet. The other side is productivity as one thing that a Ryzen3 CPU gives you is better RAM compatibility but the benchmarks show that Ryzen CPUs walk all over Intel in productivity. Just ask the creators (especially now) that are jumping to Threadripper or read a review of Ryzen.  I am not rushing but I will be getting specifically (I have said it before) getting the Asus PrimeM WIFI B550. For $189.99 it will be great for me. Anyone who knows me would not say I am not an enthusiast. There is also the thought process that for a main replacement for X470, in some scenarios B550 makes sense. One thing the upgraded VRMs (on most boards) does is allow for any CPU up to the 3950X to be used so 5 months, 1 year or even 2 years down the road you will have an upgrade path. You could also wait for PCIe 4.0 drives to fall in price before doing that upgrade. Having said that the problem with B550 is (I have said this before too) it is a late launch but I guess AMD wanted to sell as many X570 boards as possible.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jun 30, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> In a void absent of human emotion no one would objectively buy a B550 priced the same as it's X570  variant. I give you the As Rock Taichi in Canada the B550 is $489.99 and the X570 is $489.99 (I do believe it has a mail in rebate too). However the argument for B550 does exist in give scenarios (emotion). B550 is perfect for HTPC. Given that the lower end boards are justified in their price markup for what you get. A Wifi 6 adapter card is $45 on Amazon. You cannot rewire a B450 board to run PCIe 4.0 anything and B550 gives you the flexibility of taking your PCIe 3.0 drive and keep using it as your OS. Then you have to factor in the low end Ryzen parts. 3100X (4.5 GHZ OC), 3300X (4.5 GHZ OC), 1600AF (4.3 GHZ OC), 2600 (4.2 GHZ OC), 3600 and 3400G are all well priced CPUs that will surprise you in their ability, especially Gaming but $300 to $400 (Canadian) for a MB and CPU today is not too shabby at all. People can say what they want about core counts in consoles that haven't  launched yet. The other side is productivity as one thing that a Ryzen3 CPU gives you is better RAM compatibility but the benchmarks show that Ryzen CPUs walk all over Intel in productivity. Just ask the creators (especially now) that are jumping to Threadripper or read a review of Ryzen.  I am not rushing but I will be getting specifically (I have said it before) getting the Asus PrimeM WIFI B550. For $189.99 it will be great for me. Anyone who knows me would not say I am not an enthusiast. There is also the thought process that for a main replacement for X470, in some scenarios B550 makes sense. One thing the upgraded VRMs (on most boards) does is allow for any CPU up to the 3950X to be used so 5 months, 1 year or even 2 years down the road you will have an upgrade path. You could also wait for PCIe 4.0 drives to fall in price before doing that upgrade. Having said that the problem with B550 is (I have said this before too) it is a late launch but I guess AMD wanted to sell as many X570 boards as possible.



If this is the same B550M-A Prime you've mentioned before, there is no VRM upgrade. 4 undoubled/untwinned phases with relatively uncommon Vishay SIRAs places it in around the B450 Mortar, which can probably be trusted with a stock 3900X, but the Asus has far less heatsink mass. If you ask the VRM database maintainers or BZ, they'd probably recommend an 8 core and no more for the budget boards with 4 true phases + 2 low-side on each phase.

I went with a Steel Legend which is ASRock's best mATX but the firmware needs work, so I'm gonna go pick up a B550M TUF today since the Mortar I ordered is on backorder. If you don't care at all about using an Ivy Bridge era audio codec and use HDMI audio instead I guess the Prime works, but the TUF/Mortar/Steel Legend collectively represent the best mATX boards AM4 has seen so far, and honestly I'd argue that they're not any less cost effective than the entry level Pro4/Prime/Bazooka boards.

The problem with B550 raising the entire price floor is that the budget boards stop being budget boards. At that point, they're asking close to $200 for a literal copy paste B450 board on the same PCB that has PCIe 4.0 enabled and Wifi 6 (not even, on some models). The top mATX SKUs are $220-250 with a much more well-rounded feature set.

Also, sellers up here took advantage of B550 to push X570 prices up even further and fit B550 in its former place, especially the ITX boards.


----------



## milewski1015 (Jun 30, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Having said that the problem with B550 is (I have said this before too) it is a late launch but I guess AMD wanted to sell as many X570 boards as possible.



If I remember correctly, the delay was because ASMedia had setbacks regarding their PCIe 4.0 tape-outs. That's why AMD designed the X570 chipset in-house. 



tabascosauz said:


> The problem with B550 raising the entire price floor is that the budget boards stop being budget boards. At that point, they're asking close to $200 for a literal copy paste B450 board on the same PCB that has PCIe 4.0 enabled and Wifi 6 (not even, on some models). The top mATX SKUs are $220-250 with a much more well-rounded feature set.



Yeah, a big problem with B550 is the price and how it's no longer "budget" territory. However, I believe it was GamersNexus that mentioned that part of the price hike is due to increased manufacturing costs. I would also imagine that part of the price hike is likely due to the rising popularity of Ryzen and it's competitiveness in the CPU space. AMD is no longer the underdog when it comes to CPUs - they've almost caught Intel when it comes to gaming and have (in general) surpassed them in terms of multithreaded workloads. They've got good products in high demand and are taking advantage of that in terms of pricing.


----------



## kapone32 (Jul 1, 2020)

milewski1015 said:


> If I remember correctly, the delay was because ASMedia had setbacks regarding their PCIe 4.0 tape-outs. That's why AMD designed the X570 chipset in-house.
> 
> You mean the excuse, as the B550 chipset is no different than B450 in terms of PCie. Trust me AMD is in this to make money if you remember when X570 launched some of the boards were more expensive than X399 and no one can tell me that an X399 boards costs less to manufacture than a X570. Even today there is an MSI STRX Carbon for $559 Canadian and that entire board has PCie 4.0 wiring and WIFI 6.





tabascosauz said:


> If this is the same B550M-A Prime you've mentioned before, there is no VRM upgrade. 4 undoubled/untwinned phases with relatively uncommon Vishay SIRAs places it in around the B450 Mortar, which can probably be trusted with a stock 3900X, but the Asus has far less heatsink mass. If you ask the VRM database maintainers or BZ, they'd probably recommend an 8 core and no more for the budget boards with 4 true phases + 2 low-side on each phase.
> 
> I went with a Steel Legend which is ASRock's best mATX but the firmware needs work, so I'm gonna go pick up a B550M TUF today since the Mortar I ordered is on backorder. If you don't care at all about using an Ivy Bridge era audio codec and use HDMI audio instead I guess the Prime works, but the TUF/Mortar/Steel Legend collectively represent the best mATX boards AM4 has seen so far, and honestly I'd argue that they're not any less cost effective than the entry level Pro4/Prime/Bazooka boards.
> 
> ...


 Even if there is no VRM update the current B450 Prime allows for a 4.4+ GHZ OC on both the 3100X and 3300X so that does not bother me. The Steel Legend is a nice but at $259.99 that for me is too expensive for what it really is let's remember that Ryzen does have 65 W parts I never see the 3300X or 3100X go past 50W when Gaming though (MSI Afterburner).


----------



## lukart (Jul 2, 2020)

What I see is that you have as good B550 as X570 premiums for less, like this time around, steel legend and even the Extreme4 is priced under 180$ with awesome features and a very solid VRM. I would disagree that the B550 is pointless, to me make the X570 a worse choice.


----------



## CiroConsentino (Aug 19, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> The only features it has over X570 are (possibly, depending on the board) WiFi 6 and 2.5Gb LAN (and the lack of a chipset fan, if that really bothers you). Motherboard manufacturers are trying to sell B550 by claiming it has better VRMs and memory overclocking but let's face it, OC on Ryzen is pretty much non-existent and due to the Infinity Fabric wall there's no reason to want to run RAM any faster than DDR-4000, which pretty much every X570 board does already. And the VRM argument is mostly moot because (most) X570 boards, being flagship products, have strong VRMs anyway - unless you're on a 3900X/3950X it really isn't going to matter.
> 
> B550 loses out big time on connectivity, with only a single PCIe 4.0 slot for the GPU and M.2 each. Most B550 boards also have vastly lower numbers of USB ports, and only a handful come with a front USB-C header. And yet they're consistently priced around the same price, or even higher, than X570 boards with better feature sets. Heck, there are many B450 boards with superior IO connectivity!
> 
> ...


I just bought a ASUS TUF Gaming B550-Plus board because the X570 models are a lot more expensive than B550 here in Brazil... I have no complaints about this board so far.


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## king of swag187 (Aug 19, 2020)

I'm going to be honest. There aren't any real AM4 enthusiast boards anyways, so it's irrelevant


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## milewski1015 (Aug 19, 2020)

king of swag187 said:


> I'm going to be honest. There aren't any real AM4 enthusiast boards anyways, so it's irrelevant


Closest thing I can think of is maybe the MSI Unify - but it's basically pointless since Zen 2 has no OC headroom


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## kapone32 (Aug 19, 2020)

The biggest difference is the 2nd M2 slot is usually PCIe 4.0 and that's it. X570 boards have been artificially inflated since B550 boards have launched. The new X570 Prime Pro is probably the best deal as it gives you a 2nd PCIe 4 x8 slot and a backplate with white accents but at $329.99 (Canadian) it is at least $60 cheaper than any similar X570 board.


----------



## Deleted member 193596 (Aug 19, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> , OC on Ryzen is pretty much non-existent



my 9900k could be overclocked by 300 Mhz.

my 3800x by 350 Mhz (all core) (with less VCore than fit voltage)

why is overclocking "non existent" on Ryzen? because you don't know how?


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## king of swag187 (Aug 19, 2020)

milewski1015 said:


> Closest thing I can think of is maybe the MSI Unify - but it's basically pointless since Zen 2 has no OC headroom


Not even close lol, all of the MSI boards suck absolutely dog


----------



## Bones (Aug 19, 2020)

_I'm no fan of MSI by any means_, I've had my share of problems and early deaths from the make.

However I will give credit where it's due, the MSI board I have did this with PC3600 rated sticks: 








						Bones`s Memory Frequency score: 2232.8 MHz with a DDR4 SDRAM
					

The DDR4 SDRAM @ 2232.8MHzscores getScoreFormatted in the Memory Frequency benchmark. Bonesranks #432 worldwide and #370 in the hardware class. Find out more at HWBOT.




					hwbot.org
				




As far as I'm concerned with what I've seen enthusiast use is more of a luxury now than a standard. Performance has always come at a price but it's much more expensive vs the lower tier boards now and the CPU's themselves don't go up as far above stock as they did before. 
Those days I'm afraid are gone and unless something changes with the tech or we get lucky somehow and whatnot I just don't see it being the same as it was before - In fact I woudn't count on it.


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## CiroConsentino (Aug 19, 2020)

If the X570 price was the same as B550, I would have gotten the X570 board, no doubt. But I live in Brazil where computer hardware prices are beyond abusive


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## Owe (May 1, 2021)

As I read through this post I have to wonder how many of the respondents are experienced IT people.. I have run the zen2 chips on x570 and b550, the truth of the matter is, and this has been stated on this thread, Zen2 chips do not overclock very well and while you can easily squeeze a few hundred mhz overclock out of the ships pretty easily, without an aggressive cooling solution, even that is not recommended. In terms of IO and PCI options on the B550, I do not find the B550's lacking much over the X570s beyond some of the lower end sound options. Unless you are crypto mining, one 16x 4.0 graphics slot is enough with the current generations of available graphics solutions. In fact if you are looking at an ITX build there is really no reason to steer away from B550, there is no lack of USB ports and again unless you need the best possible sound quality, B550 offers everything you will need to build a reasonably priced high-end system.

Far from DOA, B550 has brought an option to enthusiasts that x570 did not offer and that is a cooler southbridge operating temperature negating the need for that additional fan on the southbridge heatsink. I have tested my B550 3900X build and monitored the southbridge with an IR gun and found the thermal operating temps well within tolerable limits, rarely exceeding 80c. My build is ITX SFX with an AIO 240 and it is plenty cool enough. I will say that stock bios settings on these boards do tend to slightly overvolt the cpu (nothing that puts the chip at risk) and produces slightly higher idle temps, but this is nothing a few manual settings will not resolve with ease.


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## xrror (May 3, 2021)

"There are no bad products, just bad pricing" I think the initial complaint against B550 was launch boards for it were often above that of even X570 boards - which was a bit of a change vs say the B450/X470 gen.

This also at time before it was confirmed by AMD that 4xx boards would be able to run 5xxx Ryzen - so it seemed a bit of a "forced" mobo upgrade if you wanted 5xxx compatibility in the future.

Now it's just a bit of a historical trivia since it doesn't really matter what mobo you have if you can't get a GPU for it ;p


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## GorbazTheDragon (May 3, 2021)

B550-A pro

This board should be the go to reference point for any AM4 build


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## RealKGB (May 3, 2021)

B550 is a great chipset, it just doesn't have the features that I need (SLI support, at least 8 SATA ports), which X570 does. The X570-E in particular checks all the boxes.
For a regular build, a decent B550 build is perfect.


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## king of swag187 (May 3, 2021)

SLI is dead anyways, 8 Sata ports can easily be fixed with a HBA or Sata PCIE card, which is basically what most X570 boards use anyways but onboard


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## RealKGB (May 3, 2021)

king of swag187 said:


> SLI is dead anyways, 8 Sata ports can easily be fixed with a HBA or Sata PCIE card, which is basically what most X570 boards use anyways but onboard


The only problem is when you don't have spare PCIe slots (like me).


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## freeagent (May 3, 2021)

I like my B550, it rips.. Another M.2 wouldnt be bad though..


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## Owe (May 3, 2021)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> B550-A pro
> 
> This board should be the go to reference point for any AM4 build


not sure I would agree with that, msi is falling from grace. Seems like if you were using full atx it would just be better to run X570, more options/peripherals, better power phases and mid to full atx doesnt really limit your internal space so cooling isn't an issue. I think B550 has its niche with the small form factors over anything else, with the commonality of the 90A chokes on the SFF boards.


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## GorbazTheDragon (May 4, 2021)

Owe said:


> not sure I would agree with that, msi is falling from grace


In what sense? Gigabyte boards are often full of half broken features in BIOS, asrock is even worse and doesn't give you good VRMs. Asus is reasonably reliable but usually overpriced, and MSI basically always gives you a good balance at a decent price. It's a 2 horse race between MSI and Asus imho.

The VRMs don't matter at all once you get to the level of the B550-A Pro or the 8 phase DrMOS setups, this is for zen2 and zen3, not comet and rocket lake or cascade lake... You'll be hard pressed to find any sustainable way to push more than 150 amps or so into the CPUs.


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## Gmr_Chick (May 4, 2021)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> In what sense? *Gigabyte boards are often full of half broken features in BIOS, asrock is even worse and doesn't give you good VRMs. Asus is reasonably reliable but usually overpriced, and MSI basically always gives you a good balance at a decent price. It's a 2 horse race between MSI and Asus imho.*
> 
> The VRMs don't matter at all once you get to the level of the B550-A Pro or the 8 phase DrMOS setups, this is for zen2 and zen3, not comet and rocket lake or cascade lake... You'll be hard pressed to find any sustainable way to push more than 150 amps or so into the CPUs.



I'd argue and say that there's no winner in the category - Asus isn't better than MSI; ASRock is no worse than Gigabyte, etc -- though I will say ASRock's current and past Z490 boards are and were atrocious save for their higher-end offerings (PG Velocita, Taichi, etc.) and that's inexcusable, but that's for another discussion. Fact is, ALL of the board makers have some good boards, some bad boards, and some straight up ugly (as in the "I wouldn't trust that thing to run anything higher than a dual core" sense) boards. None of them are any better than each other.


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## GorbazTheDragon (May 4, 2021)

With giga/asrock it's mostly half arsed bios "features" and stuff like that, update to newer bios and something is fixed and something else breaks. I'm not talking at all about overall featureset/price comparison.

If it was a mere featureset/price comparison again the B550-A pro takes the cake unless you for whatever ungodly reason find it necessary to run multiple PCIe 4.0 drives (sorry if it's offensive to you but it's really pointless, the difference between nvme 3.0 and SATA is already marginal in practice).

Asus and particularly MSI I have found to have very consistent validation on the BIOS/reliability side, more than half of their motherboard lineups are really pointless fluff, either overpriced copies of boards lower down in the lineup or straight up dropping good features from cheaper boards. However, those boards are relatively easy to avoid just by doing your research when buying and when you pick from their boards you have to worry much less about random (non-beta) BIOS releases bricking your Taichi or breaking sleep functions... Yes you can USB flashback and whatever but why does one of those BIOSes even get onto the public releases to start with.


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## PaulieG (May 4, 2021)

I had to return 2 x570 motherboards. One with a bad fan, and the other wouldn't run any set of memory I own at XMP. Those boards were replaced with a Asus Strix B550-f and a MSI B550 Carbon. Rock solid boards that clock every bit as good as the X570 boards they replaced and no problems with either board. Then again, I'm currently not worried about PCI-E 4.0 and I don't feel the lack of it makes it "DOA". Just my experience and opinion.


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## Deleted member 178884 (May 4, 2021)

Don't see how B550 is dead..... It's substantially better on the board side of things here at least - £180 for a B550 Unify X which is cheaper than basically any "decent" X570 board along with a miles better VRM and miles better RAM overclocking amongst other things, I don't see any reason why B550 is bad in any manner other than increased pricing from the useless PCIe 4.0


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## Owe (May 4, 2021)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> With giga/asrock it's mostly half arsed bios "features" and stuff like that, update to newer bios and something is fixed and something else breaks. I'm not talking at all about overall featureset/price comparison.
> 
> If it was a mere featureset/price comparison again the B550-A pro takes the cake unless you for whatever ungodly reason find it necessary to run multiple PCIe 4.0 drives (sorry if it's offensive to you but it's really pointless, the difference between nvme 3.0 and SATA is already marginal in practice).
> 
> Asus and particularly MSI I have found to have very consistent validation on the BIOS/reliability side, more than half of their motherboard lineups are really pointless fluff, either overpriced copies of boards lower down in the lineup or straight up dropping good features from cheaper boards. However, those boards are relatively easy to avoid just by doing your research when buying and when you pick from their boards you have to worry much less about random (non-beta) BIOS releases bricking your Taichi or breaking sleep functions... Yes you can USB flashback and whatever but why does one of those BIOSes even get onto the public releases to start with.


I disagree. I used MSI for many years and over the past few I have switched to Gigabyte and Asrock because of the fact their bios is more robust. I have over 23 years as an IT professional and half of that is hardware specific. MSI had the lead for a good while, but like I said, MSI is falling from grace and they don't really seem to care all that much anymore.


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## Hemmingstamp (May 4, 2021)

Owe said:


> I disagree. I used MSI for many years and over the past few I have switched to Gigabyte and Asrock because of the fact their bios is more robust. I have over 23 years as an IT professional and half of that is hardware specific. MSI had the lead for a good while, but like I said, MSI is falling from grace and they don't really seem to care all that much anymore.


No issues here with my MSI B450 / B550 boards.


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## Owe (May 4, 2021)

Hemmingstamp said:


> No issues here with my MSI B450 / B550 boaI actually built


I actually built 2 Zen2 systems back to back one using MSI X570 and one using Gigabyte X570. Not only did the Gigabyte system run smoother, it handled the power requirements better and offered some fine tuning tweaks for the CPU that MSI did not, resulting in slightly higher overclocking ability and a more stable, cooler system. Subsquently I recently built an Asrock B550i and it has very similar functionality to the Gigabyte boards I have worked with, the ONLY issue I have with B550 is the vcore issues that are well known but can be addressed by manually clocking the system.

Respectfully I have to agree to disagree, my experience tells me that while MSI is a quality product they are no longer an industry reference point.


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## Hemmingstamp (May 4, 2021)

Owe said:


> I actually built 2 Zen2 systems back to back one using MSI X570 and one using Gigabyte X570. Not only did the Gigabyte system run smoother, it handled the power requirements better and offered some fine tuning tweaks for the CPU that MSI did not, resulting in slightly higher overclocking ability and a more stable, cooler system. Subsquently I recently built an Asrock B550i and it has very similar functionality to the Gigabyte boards I have worked with, the ONLY issue I have with B550 is the vcore issues that are well known but can be addressed by manually clocking the system.
> 
> Respectfully I have to agree to disagree, my experience tells me that while MSI is a quality product they are no longer an industry reference point.


Whatever works for you my friend. I can only go on what I've used now and in the past.


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## Owe (May 4, 2021)

Hemmingstamp said:


> Whatever works for you my friend. I can only go on what I've used now and in the past.


I would agree with that, and 3 years ago I would have been singing the same tune as you. I have been fortunate enough to have been able to build several high end systems over the past couple years. I will say that if you are building mid-range, like Ryzen 5 or even Ryzen 7, it really just boils down to your UI preference. But if you are building on the high end, unless you plan to get the highest priced/capable board MSI offers, there are other, much better options out there.


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## GorbazTheDragon (May 4, 2021)

_L_ said:


> Don't see how B550 is dead..... It's substantially better on the board side of things here at least - £180 for a B550 Unify X which is cheaper than basically any "decent" X570 board along with a miles better VRM and miles better RAM overclocking amongst other things, I don't see any reason why B550 is bad in any manner other than increased pricing from the useless PCIe 4.0


180 quid for a unify X is a f-ing steal lol

And yeah 4.0 is hugely overrated, particularly when it comes to storage...


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## Hemmingstamp (May 4, 2021)

Owe said:


> I would agree with that, and 3 years ago I would have been singing the same tune as you. I have been fortunate enough to have been able to build several high end systems over the past couple years. I will say that if you are building mid-range, like Ryzen 5 or even Ryzen 7, it really just boils down to your UI preference. But if you are building on the high end, unless you plan to get the highest priced/capable board MSI offers, there are other, much better options out there.


I've owned many boards from X this to P that over the years and it's been a tough call recommending any in all fairness.
The only motherboard I would praise was my old EVGA X79 Dark. 

Can't say any more than that because I don't build what I used to for 3D stuff and other demanding progs any longer.
I've settled for an ITX system and do light gaming and some video editing. Nothing more.
Like I said it's whatever works for you.


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