# No Code Programming



## moproblems99 (Aug 10, 2020)

Great, let's put more programmers out of work.  Because hey, who needs jobs?  Not only that, WordPress made websites easy! Amirite?  Not only were those websites easy but they were also secure, fast, and efficient.  Did I mention how secure they were?  What could go wrong with drag and drop programming (Not that doesn't already exist but not for the complication implied here).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriqu...no-code-movement-put-programmers-out-of-ajob/


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## Solaris17 (Aug 10, 2020)

I don’t think so. They say sysadmins are gonna die every year, but our field just evolves. Someone’s gotta program those joomla plugins.

I dabble in the DC space from time to time and man let me tell you. I’ve dealt with some big name media outlets that host on our boxes including some tech sites.

you would be appalled at the amount of technical experience the people running this big $$$ sites have. Not to mention some of the others where I receive emails from “sales@“ because those people run and control the server.

Same goes for the teams Iv had to work with public and private that host their own gear.

I don’t think it will happen in the apocalyptic way that they seem to indicate. Like I said, admins and engineers have been on the brink of “replacement “ for years.

Puppet, chef, ansible, terraform, MDT, chocolaty, PDQ.

My job was supposed to be replaced by like all of those.

While computers programming themselves isnt exactly the same as what I deal with. Middle managers and bean counter arent going to know what to do when the cancel button on the software made by autogen :TM: doesnt work. Then programmers will need to fix it.

People and users are still just as stupid.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 10, 2020)

Solaris17 said:


> I don’t think so. They say sysadmins are gonna die every year, but our field just evolves. Someone’s gotta program those joints plugins.



Well, even if it cuts real programmers in half per project, that is a shitty thing.  I love how everyone clamors about jobs, jobs, jobs, we need to bring our jobs back but we actively develop more methods to cut jobs.



Solaris17 said:


> you would be appalled at the amount of technical experience the people running this big $$$ sites have.



Because you said I would be appalled, I am assuming you mean the 'lack' of technical experience.  And, yes, I am.  When you have to explain why you should encode/escape/parametrize queries that depend on user input to lead developers, the panic alarms start going off.  Doubly so when these are people are producing are financial applications.


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## dragontamer5788 (Aug 10, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> Well, even if it cuts real programmers in half per project, that is a shitty thing.  I love how everyone clamors about jobs, jobs, jobs, we need to bring our jobs back but we actively develop more methods to cut jobs.



If a job is proved to be redundant, it should be cut. Yes, that includes programming (which is my field as well).

The alternative: continuing to do a worthless job (that continues to lose value as machines get better) until eventually you're fired anyway. Instead of using that time to retrain to something useful, you've been obsoleted and are pushed out anyway. At a minimum, if a new tool makes your job easier to the point that you'll be replaced, you should become the master of the new tool, while the laypeople complain about losing their job, you should be on top replacing other people's jobs.



Solaris17 said:


> I don’t think so. They say sysadmins are gonna die every year, but our field just evolves. Someone’s gotta program those joints plugins.



Agreed. If this new "no-code" methodology is in fact useful (and I find it unlikely...), then we'll need sysadmins to take care of such systems. Managers are incompetent when it comes to understanding the nuance of technical systems, why they're not working or whatever. (Ex: The network is down and its out of our hands. Still IT-guy's fault for some reason).

A lot of sysadmin / programming work these days is telling the boss who to blame for a mistake or failure. That sort of stuff will never go away, no matter how automated our jobs get.


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## moproblems99 (Aug 10, 2020)

dragontamer5788 said:


> A lot of sysadmin / programming work these days is telling the boss who to blame for a mistake or failure. That sort of stuff will never go away, no matter how automated our jobs get.



GitHub doesn't have a blame feature for nothing lol



dragontamer5788 said:


> If a job is proved to be redundant, it should be cut. Yes, that includes programming (which is my field as well).



I've never seen a redundant developer.  I've seen worthless developers but never a developer without a use.  Seems like I've never seen a project scoped appropriately either.  I take that back.  I see a project get scoped appropriately and then have management say: "That's too expensive.  Make it cheaper"


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## R-T-B (Aug 11, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> GitHub doesn't have a blame feature for nothing lol



Blame is a file comparison tool.  I don't think it can be used to actually "blame" someone, lol.


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## sepheronx (Aug 11, 2020)

I am still working on my website (a wordpress one and let me tell you, it really does suck using wordpress on how bloated it can be, yet basic in functions) and constantly I am asking my wife for her coding expertise to help either build modules or just fix issues I cannot seem to figure out.  I know coding but its really basic (well, yes I have coded in basic long ago).  But I just do not see programmers going out of business.  Actually, with things like wordpress - most programmers who make modules for it are making lite and pro versions where Pro can be either a yearly subscription to use it or a one time payment.  That is all I see.  The free versions are so basic that they aren't that useful but what they show as potential is there thus it becomes attractive to purchase.  I told my wife she could do that and probably make more money than she does now with her current job programming for someone else.


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## Assimilator (Aug 11, 2020)

Programmers (good ones at least) are never going to go away. Just like all fields, there will always be the need for specialists and troubleshooters who can be brought in to fix the fuckups.

Those fuckups are primarily caused by two things: cutting corners (fast, cheap, good - pick two); and incomplete specifications.

Code that generates code can help with the first problem, but cannot help with the second. (Until or unless true, strong AIs are developed - but that will essentially make all jobs obsolete.) Bad specs = code that doesn't do what you expect, or appears to do what you expect but has side effects. And here's the rub: creating good specifications is *hard*. It's why analysts, or programmers that can also do analysis, are so well-paid - and will continue to be.

Because the foundation of any software system is the specification, it means the implementation - i.e. turning the spec into code - is (usually) relatively trivial. Which is where this "no-code coding" comes in, and why it's not particularly revolutionary: all it's doing is replacing the warm human body with an algorithm. But it's worse: whereas a human can at least look at a specification, say "this makes no fucking sense", and prevent implementing something useless... the algorithm lacks any ability to *reason* about the code it's being told to generate.

In other word, no-code coding is going to create *more* fuckups, not less. Which means *more* work for programmers, not less. I can guarantee you that big corporates are going to embrace "no code" systems en masse and rewrite their entire current systems using them, which will result in a steaming pile of shit that will bring them so close to bankruptcy that they'll have to hire ordinary programmers to come in and fix, and then the corporate will never use no-code coding again, and it will die.

tl;dr it's yet another fad that will fade away over time, as all fads do.


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## dragontamer5788 (Aug 11, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> In other word, no-code coding is going to create *more* fuckups, not less. Which means *more* work for programmers, not less. I can guarantee you that big corporates are going to embrace "no code" systems en masse and rewrite their entire current systems using them, which will result in a steaming pile of shit that will bring them so close to bankruptcy that they'll have to hire ordinary programmers to come in and fix, and then the corporate will never use no-code coding again, and it will die.



Hmm, I don't see things quite like that.

I see things closer to the 3d-printing fad. A new tool (3d printers) come out, and manufacturers become hyped for good reason. *However*, the internet hype machine gets overloaded, and too many people start to get into the 3d printing hype without understanding its context. This leads to a huge number of people becoming amateur mechanical engineers, and failing at it, for years, trying to get decent 3d printed results.

However, a few people stick with the hobby, become good CAD designers, learn the basics of mechanical engineering, and become true experts with the tool. The rest of the internet hype machine fades into the next fad. The world of mechanical engineering is improved for the better (new tool: 3d printer), there is an influx of new users interested in the field, and win/win for everyone (although a bunch of people wasted their time with the venture).

Mechanical engineers and craftsmen (ie: amateur furniture makers and handimen) really did benefit from 3d printers and 3d scanners. There's also a few weird use cases (orthodontists using a 3d mouth-scanner) that came about that I'm sure no one expected. But for the most part, manufacturers continue to manufacture as they did 10 years ago.

That's how I see this fad playing out. There's probably something useful in the "no-code coding" experience. But we don't really know what it is yet. The hype has to play itself out. Things will probably stay the same (or mostly the same), but some things will change.

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Ex: No-code programming might make programming easier. But will it be easier than the "beginner languages" Python / Javascript / Pascal / BASIC / COBOL? Probably not, and people will continue to use the beginner languages in production settings. That's my bet.


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## silentbogo (Aug 15, 2020)

Over the years there were tons of things that would put programmers out of job, but truth of the matter is, most of those things ultimately created more jobs for IT industry, or gave talentless people the opportunity to occupy the chair at the office that no one wanted. Automated testing and test-driven development was supposed to be a cure for bugs and give faster development times and reduce labor requirements, instead it created millions of entry-level jobs and made development slower. Visual programming was an attempt to bring programming to masses, but without the right mind set an "average" person can't grasp it regardless whether it's code or pretty colorful charts and blocks on the screen. ML is a good example of machines programming themselves, but they still require highly-skilled professionals to manually code and tweak those training/conditioning sequences. 
Plus, we forget that programming is not about the "cutting edge" stuff. I can still get a job programming outdated AVR micros in assembly, or writing device drivers for linux in plain-old C (AFAIK, that's the "new" hot thing right now, with rise of IoT and big comeback of embedded development).
Even webdev hasn't changed in its core over the past 10+ years, regardless of all marketing gimmicks.


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