# Can the car engine stop and go be disabled?



## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

I can't stand the new car feature where the engine stops and starts itself when the car is stationary; can this be disabled?


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## sneekypeet (Oct 30, 2022)

Depends on the car, check the manual.


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## P4-630 (Oct 30, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I can't stand the new car feature where the engine stops and starts itself when the car is stationary; can this be disabled?


It's good for the environment, don't tell me you let your engine run while waiting at a bridge or train crossing...

You can probably disable it. (I know my dads car can)


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## Tomgang (Oct 30, 2022)

In most cars, you can disable it. Many cars has a button you can push somewhere around the steering wheel. While in other cards you have to go in to the settings on a the media center screen or consol screen where speedometer is as well. Read your cars instructions manual or go on you and search for your specific car. There are a lot of helpful youtube tortirial videos on how to do something about cars.


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## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> It's good for the environment, don't tell me you let your engine run while waiting at a bridge or train crossing...



As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), it uses a dedicated small AGM battery that wears out and needs replacing so I am not sure it saves much; also puts wear on the starter motor.


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## 1freedude (Oct 30, 2022)

Do you have such a car?  I do.  It has a small AGM battery.  It is disabled when that battery is not connected.


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## Tomgang (Oct 30, 2022)

Shrek said:


> As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), it needs a dedicated small AGM battery that wears out and needs replacing so I am not sure it saves much.


I'm not sure on amarican cars. But in Europe where I live. Most cars use the same battery for stop and start as to the primary functions. Meaning it only has 1 battery for it all. 

More luxury orianted cars that needs more power to feed all its equipment. May have 2 batteries. But norm in Europe is 1 battery only.


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## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

1freedude said:


> Do you have such a car?  I do.  It has a small AGM battery.  It is disabled when that battery is not connected.



Interesting.

No, I don't have such a car, that is exactly why I am asking (for when I need a new car).


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## P4-630 (Oct 30, 2022)

Shrek said:


> As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), it needs a dedicated small AGM battery that wears out and needs replacing so I am not sure it saves much.


Don't know about that and don't know your car/brand....

As far as I know it's powered by the regular 12V battery (with my dads car it's like this), however it's a more powerful 12V battery than a car without start/stop option.
I think all European cars are like that as I described,,,


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## Tomgang (Oct 30, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Don't know about that and don't know your car/brand....
> 
> As far as I know it's powered by the regular 12V battery (with my dads car it's like this), however it's a more powerful 12V battery than a car without start/stop option.
> I think all European cars are like that as I described,,,


Yes most European cars is like that. Has 1 battery for it all. The battery is just as you say, has more capacity and designed for stop start use. But it also makes it more expensive when or if the battery fails in the time you have the car.


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## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

My present car is 25 years old (I had it from new) and maybe I can hold out till I get electric.


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## P4-630 (Oct 30, 2022)

Tomgang said:


> But it also makes it more expensive when or if the battery fails in the time you have the car.


True.


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## 3x0 (Oct 30, 2022)

Some cars have the start/stop system set up such that if you apply small force on the brakes the car will not turn off, but if you step on the brake harder when stationary it will turn off the engine.


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## Night (Oct 30, 2022)

Could be done via diagnostics software, depends on the manufacturer. If you have a seperate smaller battery it's possible it'll turn off permanently (by removing it), but on some cars it can cause to display all kinds of engine fault codes. What car is it?

For EU cars, like VAG grupation for example that have EURO5 norm, it can be disabled using VCDS. EURO6 is harder and will require additional mapping. Note that if you permanently disable Start/Stop function you'll still need a battery designed for Start/Stop function, also you should know that in some countries it's illegal to have Start/Stop disabled (if your car has it) when stationary.

My view of Start/Stop:
+ You're producing less exhaust gases
- They cost more than usual batteries
- Could lead to electrical issues once the system is not working properly (getting old)


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## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

I don't have such a car; I'm trying to understand BEORE I buy a car with an issue I don't want.

I definitely don't want to wear the starter motor out prematurely and I'm the sort that does more than 200,000 mi on a car.


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## Night (Oct 30, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I don't have such a car; I'm trying to understand BEORE I buy a car with an issue I don't want.
> 
> I definitely don't want to wear the starter motor out prematurely and I'm the sort that does more than 200,000 mi on a car.


I don't think there are new cars available without Start/Stop anymore, not in the EU at least. It used to be optional. It's a matter of ecology. Basically, it's cheaper maintanance if you don't have it. Most cars have the option to disable Start/Stop, but you'll have to do it every time after you start the ignition, afaik there's no option in the car settings to turn it off completely.


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## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

Carrying around a heavier battery... I wonder if this offsets any saving.


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## Frick (Oct 30, 2022)

Shrek said:


> Carrying around a heavier battery... I wonder if this offsets any saving.



No.


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## Wirko (Oct 30, 2022)

Shrek said:


> No, I don't have such a car, that is exactly why I am asking (for when I need a new car).


But you want to start worrying NOW!?

My experience with start/stop in my 2015 VW (manual transmission, diesel) has only been good. The battery is only one, it's bigger than in a petrol car but this is true for diesels in general. The engine starts instantly as it's already warm - I'd say in half a second or faster. It won't automatically stop when the engine is still cold or when the A/C works hard to cool the cabin. The car has 200,000 km on the odometer but it's been 90% on highways, therefore little city driving.


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## Shrek (Oct 30, 2022)

Wirko said:


> But you want to start worrying NOW!?



It's a bit later AFTER I bought the wrong car!


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## the54thvoid (Oct 31, 2022)

There are clean air advantages to this system. At lights, when a car would be idling and venting out hazardous exhaust gases, the stop/start is used to reduce emissions at street level. In Europe, there are far more closely built cities and urban space is jam-packed. My car has it and it causes no issues to me. In terms of maintenance, none so far, but I've only done 56k. But, I think I can turn it off from inside the cabin. My car's stop/start also needs the engine temp to be warm - doesn't work when it's winter temps until I've driven several miles.


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## Hyderz (Oct 31, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> There are clean air advantages to this system. At lights, when a car would be idling and venting out hazardous exhaust gases, the stop/start is used to reduce emissions at street level. In Europe, there are far more closely built cities and urban space is jam-packed. My car has it and it causes no issues to me. In terms of maintenance, none so far, but I've only done 56k. But, I think I can turn it off from inside the cabin. My car's stop/start also needs the engine temp to be warm - doesn't work when it's winter temps until I've driven several miles.


what car do you drive?


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## Space Lynx (Oct 31, 2022)

My Dad has start and stop car, I find it really annoying in the summer time, cause it always shuts off the air conditioner even though its blistering hot outside, and the car does heat up quickly if I am at a stoplight longer than 10 seconds. 

It only really annoys me on super hot days though where the air con literally has to be on very high to work.



Shrek said:


> I can't stand the new car feature where the engine stops and starts itself when the car is stationary; can this be disabled?



my dads Ford has the ability to turn it off with the push of a button. but you have to do it every single fucking time you start the car. its annoying and i always forget.


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## AusWolf (Oct 31, 2022)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a diesel-only feature, right?

If you haven't bought the car, just look for a petrol (gasoline) version of it. Modern petrol engines are far more efficient than old ones, so you wouldn't be saving much with diesel anyway, unless you do long journeys on a regular basis.


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## Hyderz (Oct 31, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a diesel-only feature, right?
> 
> If you haven't bought the car, just look for a petrol (gasoline) version of it. Modern petrol engines are far more efficient than old ones, so you wouldn't be saving much with diesel anyway, unless you do long journeys on a regular basis.



nah im using gasoline and my car has it, i can disable the feature if i want


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## Night (Oct 31, 2022)

Wirko said:


> My experience with start/stop in my 2015 VW (manual transmission, diesel) has only been good. The battery is only one, it's bigger than in a petrol car but this is true for diesels in general. The engine starts instantly as it's already warm - I'd say in half a second or faster. It won't automatically stop when the engine is still cold or when the A/C works hard to cool the cabin. The car has 200,000 km on the odometer but it's been 90% on highways, therefore little city driving.


It's definitely not annoying on highway and you don't really use it, and therefore the system will last longer than on cars that use it in city driving. I don't have it in my car, but when I drive the company's car, I'm always like: "What the f* happened, the engine stopped", and I look at the instrument table to look for any faults and then I realize that the Start/Stop is on after I press the clutch


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## Space Lynx (Oct 31, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a diesel-only feature, right?
> 
> If you haven't bought the car, just look for a petrol (gasoline) version of it. Modern petrol engines are far more efficient than old ones, so you wouldn't be saving much with diesel anyway, unless you do long journeys on a regular basis.



my dads car is also gasoline and has it.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 31, 2022)

Would refrain from anything diesel now, price wise you wont be happy. Diesel and petrol are at a similar price level already and that wont improve... Also, emission limitations in cities will some day bite you; possibly when you want to sell it off again.



Shrek said:


> It's a bit later AFTER I bought the wrong car!


Start stop is beneficial for emissions and waste of fuel from about 8 seconds of stationary onwards. Wouldnt worry, it is beneficial.


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## Shrek (Oct 31, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Would refrain from anything diesel now, price wise you wont be happy. Diesel and petrol are at a similar price level already and that wont improve...



But a diesel engine is more efficient.


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## Night (Oct 31, 2022)

Shrek said:


> But a diesel engine is more efficient.


Highway/open road use yes, city no. City driving is really bad for diesel engines.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 31, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I can't stand the new car feature where the engine stops and starts itself when the car is stationary; can this be disabled?


Yeah, I dislike that crap too.


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## AusWolf (Oct 31, 2022)

Shrek said:


> But a diesel engine is more efficient.


This was true maybe 10 years ago, but petrol has come a long way. Even my sporty Fiesta ST can match some less efficient diesel engines in fuel economy at motorway speeds.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 31, 2022)

Night said:


> Highway/open road use yes, city no. City driving is really bad for diesel engines.


That was true decades ago. Not so much after the advances made in the late 1990's. Modern diesel engines are very efficient regardless of use-case-scenario.



AusWolf said:


> This was true maybe 10 years ago, but petrol has come a long way. Even my sporty Fiesta ST can match some less efficient diesel engines in fuel economy at motorway speeds.


This is also true, but not as much as you'd think.


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## Bomby569 (Oct 31, 2022)

trust me, you get used to it


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## Vayra86 (Oct 31, 2022)

Shrek said:


> But a diesel engine is more efficient.


Barely today. And it really depends where you drive too. For its efficiency you pay initially in extra engine/car prices, generally.

Diesel always only paid off at long distance/high mileage situation combined with a lower price per unit.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 31, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> trust me, you get used to it


No thanks. I want the engine in my vehicle running until I shut it off, not until then.


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## Night (Oct 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was true decades ago. Not so much after the advances made in the late 1990's. Modern diesel engines are very efficient regardless of use-case-scenario.


My Octavia II RS Facelift sees around 8-9L per 100 km ratio during city driving when there's heavy traffic. I get around 3.2-3.5L/100 km while driving 100 km/h on the open road. It's a 2.0 TDI. Yes, I would agree they're more efficient now, but there's more things to consider if you're using a diesel powered engine when driving mostly through city traffic. Diesel engines in cars were designed to be most efficient at highway/open road use, that efficiency drops down terribly when you're in city traffic. The most important part is that you're clogging the engine in general, that includes clogging the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, EGR valve(s), DPF system. You'll also get more ash in the engine oil, diesel engines prefer high exhaust gas movement. None of those repairs will be cheap if you decide to use a car with a diesel engine primarily for city use. Worst thing you can do to a diesel engine (for first ignition of the day) is driving just a few kilometers/miles while oil and antifreeze haven't reached working temperatures, and then turning it off. Do that a few times, and you'll be getting a DPF regeneration cycle in no time acompanied by soot buildup on the parts I already mentioned. Have fun completing that DPF regeneration cycle while in traffic 

Gasoline engine with mild hybrid system ALL the way for city.


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## AusWolf (Oct 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is also true, but not as much as you'd think.


Well, 45-55 mpg (UK) was definitely diesel territory 10 years ago.


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## 1freedude (Oct 31, 2022)

A well engineered S/S system should be invisible to the driver.  Ours keeps all systems running, including cabin HEVC, while engune is not burning.  If the cabin gets too warm, the engine kicks back on to run the compressor. Or, in winter, get the core temp back up.

Personally, diesel engines are good for extreme performance, and for me, high mpg is not a metric.  0-100, yes.  24k lb towing, yes.  20kw generator, yes.

And, mpg for diesel now doesnt consider the stupid premium price of the fuel.  Almost doubke the price for 10% more mpg?


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## dragontamer5788 (Nov 7, 2022)

This feature saves a shit-ton of gasoline. I get that people don't like it, but if it works, it works.

I dunno, maybe get a PHEV / Hybrid vehicle next, that doesn't need to do the stop-and-go thing? ICE engines are least efficient at 500rpm or so. By stopping entirely and using an electric motor for that period (however brief), you cut out the least-efficient portion of your travels. Its kind of absurd how much gasoline this stupid trick saves, especially in stop-and-go traffic.

Hybrid/PHEV has enough "oomph" that the gasoline engine doesn't need to turn on (you use reserve battery power instead). So its a bit smoother in practice. But if you're a mild-hybrid / mostly-ICE car, you don't have large enough battery banks to do anything but basic stop-and-go every time. (These engines have a beefier starter, unlike the old Lead-acid batteries of yore. So these engines can be start-stopped safely and repeatedly. The extra battery-oomph also helps keep the air-conditioner running, radio, etc. etc. running when the engine shuts off. )


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 7, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> This feature saves a shit-ton of gasoline.


Most vehicles use very little fuel while at idle. It saves very little fuel in fact. All vehicles use most of the fuel for acceleration, maintaining speed and cruise operations. A very small fraction is used during moments at idle.


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## dgianstefani (Nov 7, 2022)

Pointless technology that introduces wear unless it's integrated with a hybrid system IMO.

AFAIK you can get a mechanic to modify or tune your ECU to change settings like this.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 7, 2022)

dgianstefani said:


> Pointless technology that introduces wear unless it's integrated with a hybrid system IMO.


Even then, the starter motor is receiving much more wear than it needs.


dgianstefani said:


> AFAIK you can get a mechanic to modify or tune your ECU to change settings like this.


That would be nice


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## Frick (Nov 7, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Most vehicles use very little fuel while at idle. It saves very little fuel in fact. All vehicles use most of the fuel for acceleration, maintaining speed and cruise operations. A very small fraction is used during moments at idle.



A cold engine in -25C is not exactly effectient. And it's not really about saving fuel, it's about minimizing exhausts in cities, which probably is a good thing.


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## dgianstefani (Nov 7, 2022)

Modern cars are significantly over engineered, with way too much electronics, in order to offer "features" and provide 1-2% greater fuel efficiency. They could be a lot cheaper, more reliable and simpler to work on if they cut out BS like this feature. At the cost of what, 1-2% of efficiency? Combustion engines peaked in the early 2000s, and since then every advancement has been excuses to make the system more locked down and impossible to work on, forcing consumers to pay for OEM parts, IMO.

I drive a 2002 2.2L Renault Movano with 70,000 miles, zero issues, MOT and insurance is cheap, economy and power is great.

Ideal car = Solid state battery with 500 km + range, Skoda approach to electronics (minimal), Toyota approach to reliablility and Kia approach to cost.

If you're going to take this approach CDA, cylinder deactivation is superior.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 7, 2022)

EV's also don't have S/S 

Press pedal, poof youre gone... whenever I step into an ICE now, I'm like 'jesus man, so much to do, so many buttons in the interior, wtf...'

I mean yes there is still the range problem, but in every other way... what an upgrade, damn.


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## dragontamer5788 (Nov 7, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Most vehicles use very little fuel while at idle. It saves very little fuel in fact. All vehicles use most of the fuel for acceleration, maintaining speed and cruise operations. A very small fraction is used during moments at idle.





			https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/which_is_greener.pdf
		


Break-even point is 10-seconds in this particular Department of Energy test. Any red-light that lasts longer than 10 seconds is better to have shut-off the engine rather than keep idling.

Start/stop is surprisingly "fine" for the engine. Most of the "costs" associated with startup is with regards to the "cold start" scenario (which is very bad for engine parts / other stuff). But because a 15-second start/stop or 30-second start/stop pattern has the engine remain the same temperature (indeed: engines remain warm for 30+ minutes), you're really not losing much with regards to "cold start" issues. The oil is still circulating through the engine, the parts are warm / hot and still functioning, etc. etc.

------

I think that Hybrid/PHEV technology to simply not use gasoline below XXX RPM (probably 1000 RPM or so??) is a better idea of course. Full electric at the lowest RPM saves even more fuel and "subsumes" the start/stop methodology. Still, the science seems set, even for very small passenger cars, the ~10 second break-even point shows that start/stop is surprisingly a good strategy.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 7, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/which_is_greener.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In that PDF, Table 1 & 2 tell the real story, their own numbers seem to tell a different tale. Also, that was just a 4 cylinder engine. Makes me wonder what the effect with 6 and 8 cylinder models might be.


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## dragontamer5788 (Nov 7, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> In that PDF, Table 1 & 2 tell the real story, their own number seem to tell a different tale. Also, that was just a 4 cylinder engine. Makes me wonder what the effect with 6 and 8 cylinder models might be.



The first tests were done on larger vehicles, for some reason.






						An Engine Start/Stop System for Improved Fuel Economy
					

During city traffic or heavily congested roads, a vehicle can consume a substantial amount of fuel idling when the vehicle is stopped. Due to regulation enforcement, auto manufacturers are developing systems to increase the mileage and reduce emissions. Turning off the engine at traffic lights and r




					www.sae.org
				





> In 2004, this system was designed for and integrated into a 2003 GMC Envoy and is capable of starting the vehicle's engine very quickly and quietly.





> Baseline vehicle fuel economy was measured for the OEM configuration and after installation of the start/stop system using standard chassis dynamometer fuel economy test procedures. This testing demonstrated 5.3% improvement in the city cycle and found approximately a 4.0% improvement in the highway drive cycle due to regenerative braking.



I dunno what kind of engine a GMC Envoy is, but probably bigger than the 4-cylinder of the other test.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 7, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> I dunno what kind of engine a GMC Envoy is, but probably bigger than the 4-cylinder of the other test.


It seems there were two variants, inline 6 and V8.








						GMC Envoy - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Good article BTW. It does highlight one of my other concerns with this technology, the electrical load on the battery.



dgianstefani said:


> Modern cars are significantly over engineered, with way too much electronics, in order to offer "features" and provide 1-2% greater fuel efficiency. They could be a lot cheaper, more reliable and simpler to work on if they cut out BS like this feature.


Could not agree more with this point!


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## Bones (Nov 7, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> trust me, you get used to it


In reference to an actual engine or was it about someone's motor running while their "Exhaust system" was being "Inspected and certified" for use?

Glad I wasn't there in either case..... 


This on/off feature is the same thing as a Robyn 2 cylinder/2 stroke engine used in a gas powered golf cart.
This has been around for decades now but only recently applied to motor vehicles on the road so it's a bit strange to most.
Personally I don't like it in a vehicle that's on the road but for something else like a golf cart or offroad ATV, it's fine.


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## tabascosauz (Nov 7, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> In that PDF, Table 1 & 2 tell the real story, their own numbers seem to tell a different tale. Also, that was just a 4 cylinder engine. Makes me wonder what the effect with 6 and 8 cylinder models might be.



Gen3 5.0 S/S wasn't so great - pretty sluggish to get back going again, lots of NVH (really the 5.0 simply having a lot of NVH at start and idle). Easy enough for me to break out my Forscan dongle and laptop and disable it in 5 minutes...........however iirc the procedure also disabled BMS (battery management) which had some potentially negative ramifications.

In any event, S/S on the Ecoboosts seemed a bit smoother to me. But it's also been many years since then and the 5.0 is on its Gen4 iteration now, wouldn't be surprised if it's a much better experience now.

GM also is embracing S/S on their gassers, but at least on the 5.3 L84 in the Yukon/Tahoe the start-stop experience was extremely underwhelming - but I'd chalk it up to the L84 just being a very underwhelming and underpowered engine for its applications.



Bomby569 said:


> trust me, you get used to it



In smaller displacements, fully agree - I have no complaints with S/S on smaller engines, they've made big strides in recent years to make it seamless with dedicated electric start motors on mild hybrids, response is good and you don't notice it. Even on older hybrids, engine startup is barely noticeable

For bigger gassers, stuff like S/S and cylinder deactivation is honestly a waste of time. I had direct comparison between the Gen2 (no S/S) and Gen3 (S/S) motors, in reality the difference is negligible and there are a lot of things that make a vastly bigger difference to fuel economy - terrain, driving habits, higher octane gas, not putting on heavier wheels+tires, etc.

The HD gassers (L8T, Godzilla) have the right idea - stop trying to make them into something they're not, and just sell em until they inevitably go the way of the dodo


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## Steevo (Nov 7, 2022)

The real world testing I have read on it, unless you are stopped more than a minute the wear on the starter, engine components from lack or pressurized lubricant, heating and cooling cycles on the exhaust manifold and catalytic system, and the minuscule amount of fuel used by most cars it doesn’t make any tangible difference.

I can find the video, but they tried multiple cars, used fuel cells, wideband O2 sensors and found it to be a gimmick used by auto makers to claim better fuel efficiency


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## Shrek (Nov 7, 2022)

dragontamer5788 said:


> This feature saves a shit-ton of gasoline.



Links?


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## dragontamer5788 (Nov 7, 2022)

Shrek said:


> Links?











Specifically at that point...


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## Shrek (Nov 7, 2022)

7 seconds is the magic figure

Link is MUCH appreciated.


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## Steevo (Nov 7, 2022)

Fact #861 February 23, 2015 Idle Fuel Consumption for Selected Gasoline and Diesel Vehicles
					

Idle fuel consumption rates for selected gasoline and diesel vehicles vary widely.




					www.energy.gov
				




.16 gallon per hour for a 2L engine equals less than 20Oz per hour, or .34 Oz per minute, assuming you sit in traffic for 10 minutes per day idling that’s 3.4Oz per day, or about a gallon of fuel a month. Note that some of this time may not be time the engine would shut off. But an extra 4 start cycles per day worth of wear on the starter and engine, more importantly the heat cycling of the catalytic system, being shut down and then relatively cold air being pumped into the system will cause catalyst matrix to experience more thermal stress and poorer efficiency while it reheats.


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## Bomby569 (Nov 7, 2022)

When i said "you get used to it" it just means you get used to it, i was not making anymore out of it. I don't know much about motors to make a informed opinion.

I would say it's like trying to stop a river with your hands, but it makes someone sleep better somewhere because they "did something", it obviously does nothing for the big problem. But it also is proved, as far as i read, that it doesn't do any harm to the car, so who cares i would say. Don't make more of it then what it is. As a user i got used to it.

As a side note modern cars are tools to me, i lost most of the fun of driving when i sold my old car long ago, that was fun to drive. It was also a death trap so there is that.


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## Steevo (Nov 7, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> When i said "you get used to it" it just means you get used to it, i was not making anymore out of it. I don't know much about motors to make a informed opinion.
> 
> I would say it's like trying to stop a river with your hands, but it makes someone sleep better somewhere because they "did something", it obviously does nothing for the big problem. But it also is proved, as far as i read, that it doesn't do any harm to the car, so who cares i would say. Don't make more of it then what it is. As a user i got used to it.
> 
> As a side note modern cars are tools to me, i lost most of the fun of driving when i sold my old car long ago, that was fun to drive. It was also a death trap so there is that.


I sold my last sports car after taking it out to pickup a kid from school, it was hit while parked and they totaled it out.


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## erocker (Nov 7, 2022)

I just press a button on my center console and it turns it off. Once my scan tool gets updated for 2022 I'll just permanently disable it. Bad for starters, starter solenoids and flywheels.


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## dragontamer5788 (Nov 7, 2022)

Shrek said:


> 7 seconds is the magic figure
> 
> Link is MUCH appreciated.



On that car and youtube video 7-seconds was the magic figure. On some other car + study, it was 10 seconds. Either way, the point where benefits start to add up is surprisingly short (far shorter than a typical red-light). Just keep in mind it changes from car-to-car. 

But we can safely assume that the people who designed your particular car with start/stop technology at least put some thought into the whole thing.


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## Calenhad (Nov 7, 2022)

Steevo said:


> .16 gallon per hour for a 2L engine equals less than 20Oz per hour, or .34 Oz per minute, assuming you sit in traffic for 10 minutes per day idling that’s 3.4Oz per day, or about a gallon of fuel a month. Note that some of this time may not be time the engine would shut off. But an extra 4 start cycles per day worth of wear on the starter and engine, more importantly the heat cycling of the catalytic system, being shut down and then relatively cold air being pumped into the system will cause catalyst matrix to experience more thermal stress and poorer efficiency while it reheats.


Do you seriously believe there is any significant cooling happening during the seconds the engine is stopped? Engines (and to a lesser degree exhausts) are still rather substantial lumps of metal, so they do in fact not cool down in seconds.
The starter and battery are significantly uprated compared to non start/stop engines, to handle any extra load. In many cases there are no dedicated starter motor anymore, instead they have a starter-generator combo unit.
Oil does not magically drain into the sump in seconds either. If it does, you need to replace the cooking oil with proper engine oil.
Wear and tear? I believe there are engineers smarter than both of us that have thought long and hard about this problem. I know they have figured out some pretty fancy cylinder coating to reduce friction as one example.

And why do every new car have this start-stop stuff? Because emission laws around the world have made it mandatory.

But seriously, there is so much caveman mentality in this thread that my gearhead is hurting from reading it. I consider myself an old school gearhead. I do like my carburettors and what not. But at the same time I understand that evolution is not all bad. This is a net plus for the environment. And right now we are literally killing it on that front, so yay for start-stop and all the other small improvements.


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## Steevo (Nov 7, 2022)

Calenhad said:


> Do you seriously believe there is any significant cooling happening during the seconds the engine is stopped? Engines (and to a lesser degree exhausts) are still rather substantial lumps of metal, so they do in fact not cool down in seconds.
> The starter and battery are significantly uprated compared to non start/stop engines, to handle any extra load. In many cases there are no dedicated starter motor anymore, instead they have a starter-generator combo unit.
> Oil does not magically drain into the sump in seconds either. If it does, you need to replace the cooking oil with proper engine oil.
> Wear and tear? I believe there are engineers smarter than both of us that have thought long and hard about this problem. I know they have figured out some pretty fancy cylinder coating to reduce friction as one example.
> ...


Hi

I have certificates from Bosch & FPT engine control systems and know for a fact that stop start saves fuel, but the engine components are the same, they only increase any component to the minimum service level for a percent of failure that is allowable.

Just like GM Active Fuel Management that kills otherwise perfectly fine engines after 200K miles or so, DEF/Adblue there are ideas that look good on paper but fail to consider the full effect VS the cost.

One of the hardest things on catalytic systems is frequent heat cycles, their ceramic matrix is especially sensitive to heat and cooling, they are made that way to reach temperature quickly, and rely on them engine exhaust heat to maintain that temp and thus efficiency. Most catalytic systems are manufactured to the minimum warranty period, and have enough clauses to void the warranty that it’s almost uncovered (for example using air tools on a catalytic converter voids the warranty, if it shows signs of impact, heat stress, excessive vibration, contamination (engine is burning more oil that allowed, wrong fuel used) and a plethora of other reasons) except where it’s base efficiency on enough  vehicles can be demonstrated. The cooling effect of 3.5 liters of 200F air (3 revolutions of a 2L engine before ignition occurs while the ECU watches cam and crankshaft positions) VS a 800F matrix temperature will cause the ceramic substrate to shrink in the center. Turbocharged vehicles have/had “turbo timers” to allow them to cool after use. Same idea.

Let’s review this in 5 years when either the stop start feature has saved the average user $300 in fuel and hopefully not cost them thousands in other parts.


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## Psychoholic (Nov 7, 2022)

My truck has a button to turn it off (2022 RAM 1500)
I'm not a huge fan of it, in my truck's case it has its own electric motor (and 48V batteryt) that starts the engine when its active (normal starter for cold starts)
I'd rather not have this "feature" but the truck i liked had it, so its there.

One concern is, when the engine is off the oil drips down out of the bearings, probably doesnt do alot of harm, but i've thought about it.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 7, 2022)

Calenhad said:


> And why do every new car have this start-stop stuff? Because emission laws around the world have made it mandatory.


Absolute nonsense. No States require this level of functionality.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 7, 2022)

Steevo said:


> Hi
> 
> I have certificates from Bosch & FPT engine control systems and know for a fact that stop start saves fuel, but the engine components are the same, they only increase any component to the minimum service level for a percent of failure that is allowable.
> 
> ...


Start stop has been around for a longer time than 5 years, we know by now how it works.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Nov 8, 2022)

Perhaps Get a Hybrid car?
Somthing like Toyota hybrid system will have the engine stop
however you still have the ability to start driving when the engine is off


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## RJARRRPCGP (Nov 8, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Would refrain from anything diesel now, price wise you wont be happy.


IIRC, even 93 AKI gas is less expensive than Diesel, LOL.


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## Steevo (Nov 8, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Start stop has been around for a longer time than 5 years, we know by now how it works.


Nissan Rogue catalytic converters and start stop would disagree. Not all might fail, but it only takes a few to offset the “gain”.

It’s easy to connect the dots, just like DEF/Adblue, it will never clean more than the energy used to distill the water, or create the urea, let alone plastic packaging, transport and degradation losses will lose, thermodynamics is a law.



RJARRRPCGP said:


> IIRC, even 93 AKI gas is less expensive than Diesel, LOL.



Diesel is more expensive in a lot of places, and the short supply in some places.


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## caroline! (Nov 8, 2022)

My FIAT has this feature, except it stops at a traffic light in the middle of a busy road and doesn't starts again until I hit the engine with a wrench.


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## Steevo (Nov 8, 2022)

The US and Europe aren’t the main polluters in the world anymore, it’s countries starting or in the middle of their industrial revolution. It’s lifting people out of poverty.


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## Super Firm Tofu (Nov 8, 2022)

caroline! said:


> My FIAT has this feature, except it stops at a traffic light in the middle of a busy road and doesn't starts again until I hit the engine with a wrench.



And this is the only reason I have a problem with start/stop.  Too many years of driving hoopties.  There's that rush of panic every time it stops.  Total 1st world PTSD.


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## caroline! (Nov 8, 2022)

Super Firm Tofu said:


> And this is the only reason I have a problem with start/stop.  Too many years of driving hoopties.  There's that rush of panic every time it stops.  Total 1st world PTSD.


It's an '88 so it makes sense it has its quirks, the only good thing is that it runs on CNG that's cheap compared to petrol. Other than that... it's a FIAT, I mean, can't expect it to be an Audi.


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## Jism (Nov 8, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Absolute nonsense. No States require this level of functionality.



It's the total picture. And i'm sure a "stop" comes to testing as well. Honestly, an idling engine emits gasses; if you ever lived in a big city you know what i'm talking about and how much gas is emitted on heavy traffic stops in the middle of the city just waiting for red lights.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 8, 2022)

Steevo said:


> Nissan Rogue catalytic converters and start stop would disagree. Not all might fail, but it only takes a few to offset the “gain”.
> 
> It’s easy to connect the dots, just like DEF/Adblue, it will never clean more than the energy used to distill the water, or create the urea, let alone plastic packaging, transport and degradation losses will lose, thermodynamics is a law.
> 
> ...


But its not about the total energy required, entirely. The offensive to reduce exhaust from vehicles is simply a health issue. Air pollution places a toll on public health, which makes healthcare more expensive. Its a simple cost/benefit thing. AdBlue is a similar measure. It serves to reduce NOx.

A lot of things we do now use _more_ energy in production, but gain efficiency or other advantages in _usage_. Meanwhile, the total carbon/energy footprint of the globe still steadily increases YoY. We can't reduce. The world population is growing, not shrinking, and higher wealth means more of the above solutions come into play for larger groups of people.

We'll gain efficiency. It won't fix a thing, except reducing pollution in high pop density areas where it matters most. The EV is of a similar nature. It won't save the planet...

The US for example might not be the biggest polluter anymore, but that's only because China has surpassed it, and not because of strong reductions in energy usage.


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## AusWolf (Nov 8, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Most vehicles use very little fuel while at idle. It saves very little fuel in fact. All vehicles use most of the fuel for acceleration, maintaining speed and cruise operations. A very small fraction is used during moments at idle.


This!

My '16 Fiesta ST uses 0.1 litre per hour when idling with a warm engine, and significantly more than that during starts, especially cold starts. I'm glad it doesn't have any of the start-stop bollocks.



Vayra86 said:


> But its not about the total energy required, entirely. The offensive to reduce exhaust from vehicles is simply a health issue. Air pollution places a toll on public health, which makes healthcare more expensive. Its a simple cost/benefit thing. AdBlue is a similar measure. It serves to reduce NOx.
> 
> A lot of things we do now use _more_ energy in production, but gain efficiency or other advantages in _usage_. Meanwhile, the total carbon/energy footprint of the globe still steadily increases YoY. We can't reduce. The world population is growing, not shrinking, and higher wealth means more of the above solutions come into play for larger groups of people.
> 
> ...


I have two things to say to that:
1. I think it's best to avoid stop-and-go traffic altogether, not just for air quality, but also to preserve my mental integrity. I have a policy for myself: if I absolutely have to go to a big city, I use public transport. It tends to be quicker as well.
2. Instead of cutting back personal consumption and condemning ourselves to (sometimes extreme) inconveniences just to support population growth, maybe we could tackle the underlying cause and cut back on population growth itself? If it's an essential need for some people to reproduce like vermin, then a sporty petrol (gasoline) car with no start-stop crap is my essential need, and no one should tell me that there's anything wrong with it.


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## Vayra86 (Nov 8, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> This!
> 
> My '16 Fiesta ST uses 0.1 litre per hour when idling with a warm engine, and significantly more than that during starts, especially cold starts. I'm glad it doesn't have any of the start-stop bollocks.
> 
> ...


2. Yes, and war isn't fast/effective enough, unless we start tossing WMDs. Now, try to tell people they should get less kids, when in most countries 2+ per family is still some strange norm or target. And even then its highly problematic; China has a rapidly growing population pyramid problem due to their one child policy (now they stimulate getting more) and we already have it because of the boomer wave. Migration is a solution, but then where do those people come from? Low income countries where more kids are considered better...


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## claes (Nov 8, 2022)

You know I have a lot to say about these things but not only off-topic but damn stop with the doomerism you hippies


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## AusWolf (Nov 8, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> 2. Yes, and war isn't fast/effective enough, unless we start tossing WMDs. Now, *try to tell people they should get less kids*, when in most countries 2+ per family is still some strange norm or target. And even then its highly problematic; China has a rapidly growing population pyramid problem due to their one child policy (now they stimulate getting more) and we already have it because of the boomer wave. Migration is a solution, but then where do those people come from? Low income countries where more kids are considered better...


OK, I'll start now:
People! Have less kids! Or have as many kids as you want, but leave my driving, gaming and spending habits alone!


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## Easy Rhino (Nov 8, 2022)

Ill turn on the stop/stop feature when the polticians stop buying waterfront second homes and flying around in enormous carbon spewing jets. And yes, you can disable the start/stop. It's software controlled.


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## AusWolf (Nov 8, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> Ill turn on the stop/stop feature when the polticians stop buying waterfront second homes and flying around in enormous carbon spewing jets. And yes, you can disable the start/stop. It's software controlled.


Exactly. Lead by example as they say. The only examples we've been getting lately are how to lie about everything, how to spread mass hysteria, how to cheat on your wife at work, and how to organise secret parties during covid lockdown.


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## wolf (Nov 8, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I'm trying to understand BEORE I buy a car with an issue I don't want.


I'll admit I haven't read all of the thread before posting, but I also hate this ... 'feature'

I currently own two GM vehciles, both Australian delivered Holden branded ones, both have auto engine stop/start.

One has a button to disable it, but it doesn't persist between drives, so I often forget until the first time it happens, but at least it has the button. The second vehicle has no button at all! you can do a funky thing with the gear selector but that's a per-drive thing to worry about too.

The solution for both was a <$20 AUD cable from Aliexpress that plugs in under the hood and permanently disables stop start.

Bliss.


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## Easy Rhino (Nov 8, 2022)

wolf said:


> I'll admit I haven't read all of the thread before posting, but I also hate this ... 'feature'
> 
> I currently own two GM vehciles, both Australian delivered Holden branded ones, both have auto engine stop/start.
> 
> ...



I am guessing it varies from country to country based on 'rules.' I always disable it because I hate the latency of hitting the gas and waiting for the engine to start back up. It feels unnatural and like something is broken.


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## wolf (Nov 8, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> I am guessing it varies from country to country based on 'rules.' I always disable it because I hate the latency of hitting the gas and waiting for the engine to start back up. It feels unnatural and like something is broken.


I also hate it in Australia because the moment the engine turns off, the AC slowly starts getting warmer and warmer.

But yeah for sure, lag with engine restart, excess wear on the starter, a special battery to support so many start cycles, big old meh.

If I actually commuted in a car, in peak hour I might leave the feature intact, but I ride an e-scooter... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


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## the54thvoid (Nov 8, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> I am guessing it varies from country to country based on 'rules.' I always disable it because I hate the latency of hitting the gas and waiting for the engine to start back up. It feels unnatural and like something is broken.


I can see it being slow on an automatic transmission. I drive manual, so at lights the gear is in neutral and the stop/start activates. To pull away, I have to depress the clutch to shift gear before I touch the accelerator. The clutch depress starts the engine before the accelerator, so there's no lag there.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 8, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> I can see it being slow on an automatic transmission. I drive manual, so at lights the gear is in neutral and the stop/start activates. To pull away, I have to depress the clutch to shift gear before I touch the accelerator. The clutch depress starts the engine before the accelerator, so there's no lag there.


That sounds like it would be alright. Sadly, many cars are automatic these days.


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## Easy Rhino (Nov 8, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> I can see it being slow on an automatic transmission. I drive manual, so at lights the gear is in neutral and the stop/start activates. To pull away, I have to depress the clutch to shift gear before I touch the accelerator. The clutch depress starts the engine before the accelerator, so there's no lag there.



I didn't even know they could do that with manual...


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## the54thvoid (Nov 8, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That sounds like it would be alright. Sadly, many cars are automatic these days.





Easy Rhino said:


> I didn't even know they could do that with manual...



UK used to be predominantly manual transmission but automatics are growing in number these days. TBH, I like the ease of an auto (drove them in Canada vacation) but I like the ability to shift gears to maximise engine rev for acceleration. Then again, I know expensive automatics are very responsive.


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## Tatty_One (Nov 8, 2022)

I think automatics in the UK now account for around half of all new sales, a decade ago it was only around 20%, as for start stop, I have it and use it but not really when I should, if I am driving through a large city I turn it off because you could be stopping 30 or 40 times in half an hour, although EU and UK legislation requires a higher capacity battery to cope with the additional load of stop start it just don't feel right, everyday driving I leave it on.  Some cars have customisable drive profiles that allow the user to input how they want to set up their driving experience, for example I have "normal", sport" and "eco" plus a custom setup so the feature could be permanently turned off.


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## dragontamer5788 (Nov 8, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> UK used to be predominantly manual transmission but automatics are growing in number these days. TBH, I like the ease of an auto (drove them in Canada vacation) but I like the ability to shift gears to maximise engine rev for acceleration. Then again, I know expensive automatics are very responsive.



The main advantage to manual transmission is ease of maintenance.  But in practice, today's vehicles (even automatics), last 150,000+ miles even without much maintenance. With automatics so reliable, the simpler design of manual transmissions isn't a big deal anymore.

I personally still prefer manual. But I think my current car will be the last manual I drive. Its getting harder-and-harder to find good manual transmissions, especially with these newer Hybrid / PHEVs / Electrics coming out. There's an elegance to the simplicity of maintenance, and the extra hand / leg I need to use for the clutch/gearbox really isn't a big deal, even in stop-and-go traffic IMO.


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## AusWolf (Nov 8, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> I can see it being slow on an automatic transmission. I drive manual, so at lights the gear is in neutral and the stop/start activates. To pull away, I have to depress the clutch to shift gear before I touch the accelerator. The clutch depress starts the engine before the accelerator, so there's no lag there.


There's also the challenge of shifting into gear and pulling off as quickly as possible (especially when you're in one lane, but you need the next one that already has traffic in it).


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Nov 8, 2022)

I hate that shit too. My wife has a Ford Explorer that does this. She actually has a button that she can press that disables this feature. But it only disables it for that drive. Once she turns off the car and turns it back on again, it's re-enabled and you have to press the button again to disable for that specific ride.


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## Frick (Nov 8, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I have two things to say to that:
> 1. I think it's best to avoid stop-and-go traffic altogether, not just for air quality, but also to preserve my mental integrity. I have a policy for myself: if I absolutely have to go to a big city, I use public transport. It tends to be quicker as well.



You live in the UK which basically is one big city.

As for your second point, the problem isn't exactly population but resource allocation, and the idea of eternal growth and the brainless sanctified chase of money and shinies (like GPUs), and the "careers" people absolutely must have for some god forsaken reason. And plain ol' greed. Far more practical to implement strict global birth control schemes and forced emmigration/immigration to adjust population levels as needed than to even try to work against that. "Appeal to their better natures" implies there is such a thing.


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 8, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> There's also the challenge of shifting into gear and pulling off as quickly as possible (especially when you're in one lane, but you need the next one that already has traffic in it).


That's the biggest problem I've seen. Locally here, vehicles that have start/stop are always the one's holding up traffic, even the trucks & SUV's.


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## AusWolf (Nov 8, 2022)

Frick said:


> As for your second point, the problem isn't exactly population but resource allocation, and the idea of eternal growth and the brainless sanctified chase of money and shinies (like GPUs), and the "careers" people absolutely must have for some god forsaken reason. And plain ol' greed. Far more practical to implement strict global birth control schemes and forced emmigration/immigration to adjust population levels as needed than to even try to work against that. "Appeal to their better natures" implies there is such a thing.


I agree with that. We can't grow everything (population, economy, etc) eternally as the planet isn't growing. I think it would be a lot more sensible to keep population in check and have relatively comfortable lives than for everybody to reproduce beyond measure and have even our basic necessities denied from us. Today it's internal combustion engines we have to give up, tomorrow it's gas heating, and after that it may be food.

As for eternal growth in career, I don't understand that myself. My manager keeps asking me where I imagine myself in 5 years, and all I can think of is some Mediterranean beach with a beer in my hand.  All this career pursuit people are pushing for only gives me the impression that they're unhappy where they are at the moment and all they want from their jobs is another line in their CVs/resumes. But if they're unhappy, then why do it at all, and why not just do something different altogether?


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## the54thvoid (Nov 9, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> As for eternal growth in career, I don't understand that myself. My manager keeps asking me where I imagine myself in 5 years, and all I can think of is some Mediterranean beach with a beer in my hand.  All this career pursuit people are pushing for only gives me the impression that they're unhappy where they are at the moment and all they want from their jobs is another line in their CVs/resumes. But if they're unhappy, then why do it at all, and why not just do something different altogether?



I'm jacking in my job on the 23rd December. Worked since I was at Uni, 27 years in the Fitness Industry (not great but comfortable salary), and 19 years from state pension. Leaving it all behind to be free to pursue my own destiny. I'll be poorer for a while, maybe forever, but I'll not spend 5-days a week pacing around being bored and feeling empathy with Pavlov's dogs.


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## 1freedude (Nov 9, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> I'm jacking in my job on the 23rd December. Worked since I was at Uni, 27 years in the Fitness Industry (not great but comfortable salary), and 19 years from state pension. Leaving it all behind to be free to pursue my own destiny. I'll be poorer for a while, maybe forever, but I'll not spend 5-days a week pacing around being bored.......


Sounds like you created a different S/S feature.....stop/stop!

Congrats


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## Bones (Nov 9, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's the biggest problem I've seen. Locally here, vehicles that have start/stop are always the one's holding up traffic, even the trucks & SUV's.


I'm waiting for the day traffic gets held up because start/stop didn't start....
And possibly gets rear-ended because the ones behind it didn't know it was broken down until they hit it, expecting it to go instead.

My wife, after I told her about start/stop said the same thing someone else did about the AC dropping out, she is NO fan of that happening!
And what are you gonna do during Summer, stuck in a traffic jam and you can't disable this "Feature"?

Ain't gonna be me, what I've got now without all this crap I'm keeping.


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## DoH! (Nov 9, 2022)

Shrek said:


> I can't stand the new car feature where the engine stops and starts itself when the car is stationary; can this be disabled?


Read your car manual, there could / should be a button on your centre-console to enable/disable this feature. Doesn't matter if you car is petrol or diesel.


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## AusWolf (Nov 9, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> I'm jacking in my job on the 23rd December. Worked since I was at Uni, 27 years in the Fitness Industry (not great but comfortable salary), and 19 years from state pension. Leaving it all behind to be free to pursue my own destiny. I'll be poorer for a while, maybe forever, but I'll not spend 5-days a week pacing around being bored and feeling empathy with Pavlov's dogs.


Wow, good luck to you, and post how it's going every now and then! 

The only reason I'm not doing that is because I have an awesome boss, who by the way, works day shifts, and I work nights, so I'm sort of my own boss even though I'm technically not. If he quits, I'll probably quit too. Luckily, he's not planning to.


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## kilo (Nov 9, 2022)

On Hondas, idle stop engine can be enabled/disabled using the button that looks like an A with a clockwise arrow around it.  On my 2022 CRV, it's located on the center gear shifty stick.

I prefer to keep it on. Where I live (more rural), when you do come to a light, it's usually 60 seconds.  In the city where traffic lights are 30 seconds or less (?), I disable it.  And easing up to stop signs is a pain with it turning off every 2 seconds.


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## KLiKzg (Jan 6, 2023)

That is why I bought a hybrid...no problems with ON&OFF...engine runs when it needs to, driving on battery as much as I can.


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