# AMD Confirms "Zen 3" with 64 MB 3DV Cache for Q1-2022, "Zen 4" Later, PCIe Gen5 + DDR5



## btarunr (Oct 12, 2021)

AMD today celebrated 5 Years of Ryzen, with a special video presentation by John Taylor, AMD Chief Marketing Officer, and Robert Hallock, Director of Technical Marketing. The company confirmed that its next Ryzen processors will come out only in Q1-2022. These processors will feature updated CPU core complex dies (CCDs) that combine the existing "Zen 3" microarchitecture with 64 MB of additional 3D Vertical Cache memory. AMD claims that this change improves performance by anywhere between 4% to 25% for games, amounting to the kind of performance uplifts you'd expect from a new processor generation. 

AMD did not reveal whether the updated processors will be branded within the existing Ryzen 5000 series, or newer Ryzen 6000 series. If you remember, the "Zen+" microarchitecture enabled AMD to come up with a whole new generation, the Ryzen 2000 series, despite modest 4% IPC uplifts, albeit significant improvements to the boosting behavior, resulting in improved multi-threaded performance. What remains unclear is whether the updated "Zen 3" chips with 3DV Cache will herald a new platform, or whether these chips will be built on the existing Socket AM4 with DDR4 memory and PCI-Express Gen 4. 






AMD's next truly next-generation Ryzen processor will come out within 2022, the company confirmed. Based on the new "Zen 4" microarchitecture, the company is targeting significant IPC uplifts, that will help it compete with Intel; but more importantly, introduce the new Socket AM5. An LGA package with 1,718 pins, AM5 will enable next-gen I/O. The "Zen 4" based next-gen Ryzen will indeed feature the combination of DDR5 memory and PCI-Express Gen 5, letting AMD level up to Intel on that front. 

AMD's 2022 roadmap for desktop Ryzen processors looks quite similar to its 2020 roadmap. The company had initially refreshed its Ryzen 3000 series with a trio of Ryzen 3000XT SKUs that missed the mark of being viable stopgaps; but followed it up with the groundbreaking Ryzen 5000 "Zen 3" series toward the end of the year. 2021 will go down as an year without any new Ryzen processor generation. 

Another aspect of Socket AM5 confirmed by AMD in the presentation was backwards compatibility of coolers with Socket AM4. You'll be able to retain your AM4-compatible coolers for AM5, without needing any adapters or upgrades to your coolers' retention modules. 

As for a concrete response to Intel's Hybrid CPU core designs that the company will be pioneering on the desktop PC with "Alder Lake," AMD doesn't appear to be having a hybrid core design of its own, but hinted at the possibility that it is working on a new power-management solution built from the ground up, which will probably run a homogeneous set of CPU cores across very different performance/Watt bands, while retaining a consistent ISA. AMD has given this a rather uninteresting name—Power Management Framework.

Find the AMD presentation here:










*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Chrispy_ (Oct 12, 2021)

Hopefully these are drop in replacements for AM4 sockets so that AMD platform owners have a safe option on mature hardware to avoid the first-gen paying beta-tester gauntlet (with added early-adopter tax); It rarely pays to be in the first wave of new tech and Alder Lake is the first wave of lots of things at once - PCIe 5.0, Dual-architecture CPU, new socket, new chipsets, 10nm in a desktop power envelope at desktop clockspeeds...

Adding 64MB of extra cache to Zen3 should be a difficult thing to screw up; Zen architecture and motherboards already handle CPUs with a huge range of different cache sizes, this shouldn't be any different.

I dunno, maybe I'm being too cynical and_ this time _Intel won't screw up the launch....


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## TheLostSwede (Oct 12, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Hopefully these are drop in replacements for AM4 sockets so that AMD platform owners have a safe option on mature hardware to avoid the first-gen paying beta-tester gauntlet


It very much sounded like it from the video.


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## zlobby (Oct 12, 2021)

I wonder what the iGPU in the APU models would be?


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## yotano211 (Oct 12, 2021)

My guess is zen 3+ will be on AM4 socket.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Oct 12, 2021)

Considering that Adler Lake is not big.LITTLE across the product stack, I still wonder about the merits of the most powerful CPUs in the stack being the only ones with E cores, at least in desktop applications. Desktop CPUs already have good idle characteristics, and it’s not like you aren’t going to need a good PSU, motherboard, and cooler to get the most out of the best SKUs in the stack. Until we have hybrids across the entire stack, it just seems like it’s not going to matter on the desktop. Mobile might be another story, but even there one can get a really long unplugged experience under low to moderate use with what is already out there.


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## freeagent (Oct 12, 2021)

This is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest


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## Tomgang (Oct 12, 2021)

Oh I hope zen 3 v-cashe is for AM4. That will give me and upgrade path I dit not exspexted to have.

Let's see what happens. Not because my 5950X will go on sale after launch. But in a few years it's nice to know I can maybe habe that possibility. Cheaper than replacing and converting to a new socket.


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## HTC (Oct 12, 2021)

freeagent said:


> This is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest



To put it another way:

Now i can have the best possible for this platform while i wait for the new platform's prices to "descend to reality".


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## neatfeatguy (Oct 12, 2021)

Seeing some of these posts, sometimes I forget some folk like to upgrade a lot.

I usually sit on a CPU/MB/RAM combo for 5-6 years before moving on. However, that was during the 4core days and now that I've got a 5900x, maybe it'll last me even longer? Personally, I'm in no rush to upgrade, but I do like seeing how tech progresses.


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## Erazor6000 (Oct 12, 2021)

+18% more fps in DOTA 2 compared to Ryzen 9 5900X, considering that no architectural changes were made and the clock speed is the same. 
That's impressive, just think about what Zen4 will be.


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## windwhirl (Oct 12, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Hopefully these are drop in replacements for AM4 sockets so that AMD platform owners have a safe option on mature hardware to avoid the first-gen paying beta-tester gauntlet (with added early-adopter tax); It rarely pays to be in the first wave of new tech and Alder Lake is the first wave of lots of things at once - PCIe 5.0, Dual-architecture CPU, new socket, new chipsets, 10nm in a desktop power envelope at desktop clockspeeds...
> 
> Adding 64MB of extra cache to Zen3 should be a difficult thing to screw up; Zen architecture and motherboards already handle CPUs with a huge range of different cache sizes, this shouldn't be any different.
> 
> I dunno, maybe I'm being too cynical and_ this time _Intel won't screw up the launch....





TheLostSwede said:


> It very much sounded like it from the video.


I don't really see the reason why they wouldn't launch this Zen3 + 3D V-Cache on AM4? It's just (and excuse this crude oversimplification) slapping more cache on the CPU. Basically doing that and adjusting the firmware coding to detect the extra cache.

Actually, why would they put it on a different socket, say AM5? Wouldn't they have to change the... socket-facing circuitry (for want of a better way to describe it) of Zen 3 for starters, maybe even other parts of the chip design?


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## Darmok N Jalad (Oct 12, 2021)

freeagent said:


> This is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest


Does what you have not meet your needs? Needing to always have the latest and greatest has always been expensive.


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## Ellertis (Oct 12, 2021)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> Considering that Adler Lake is not big.LITTLE across the product stack, I still wonder about the merits of the most powerful CPUs in the stack being the only ones with E cores, at least in desktop applications. Desktop CPUs already have good idle characteristics, and it’s not like you aren’t going to need a good PSU, motherboard, and cooler to get the most out of the best SKUs in the stack. Until we have hybrids across the entire stack, it just seems like it’s not going to matter on the desktop. Mobile might be another story, but even there one can get a really long unplugged experience under low to moderate use with what is already out there.


From my perspective the E cores in alder lake in are there for a better multithread performance scaling in a given thermal package. Yes, power efficiency is more important in mobile where the power requirements are even more important. Though that doesn't mean you wouldn't get a performance uplift on desktop. 
I still see a lot of people complaining about the E cores, saying they are worthless, when in fact a well multithreaded application will perform better than the only P core cpu, because the E cores are much better in a die size/energy efficiency ratio. 4 E cores take as much die size as 1 P core, though perform about 50%ish better in restricted power environment.


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## blu3dragon (Oct 12, 2021)

TheLostSwede said:


> It very much sounded like it from the video.



More than sounded like.  The video confirmed that 3dv cache is coming to am4 in early 2022.

Only question I have now is what frequency they will be able to run at.  The benchmark slide shows a fixed 4GHz.  They will need to at least match current core clocks to hit that average 15% improvement in games.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 12, 2021)

So AMD think 3D cache is enough to counter Alder lake, I would agree at this vague point.


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## Ellertis (Oct 12, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> So AMD think 3D cache is enough to counter Alder lake, I would agree at this vague point.


In high end desktop, yeah, mobile though... probably not


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 12, 2021)

Ellertis said:


> In high end desktop, yeah, mobile though... probably not


AmD have a different CPU for mobile too you know, they haven't announced 3D cache for it, But, it will be due a update too.
I can still see AMD gaining market share on laptops , a lot of them are not used portably and you can get a day of work based battery use on an AMD lapy now already Soo I dunno, we will see.

And as for higher end laptops, they're not run on battery often and Intel won't compete so well here either.

Finally tangential argument that, the OP isn't about laptops.


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## Turmania (Oct 12, 2021)

They will fit existing socket.
They will be named 6xxxx series, so they can unify next gen cpu and gpu with same 7xxxx.
They will be priced above competitors rival offerings.
They will be slightly more power consuming.
They will offer slight performance increase at same clocks.
They will make AMD stock holders happy.
That is all folks.
Ohh and ...
They will not offer 4 core 8 threads parts again as it is just eating through their limited chips to maximise profits.


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## Nioktefe (Oct 12, 2021)

I hope AMD can make the bold move of releasing AM5 as soon as Q1 2022.
Their CPU being chiplet, I don't see anything blocking them from releasing an io die for DDR5 sooner than the cpu chiplet, especially considering the IO die will probably use an older/cheaper process.
They should even be able to release zen 4 on both AM4 and 5 if they go that way, although at this point it's way overly optimistic.


But maybe it's a pain in the ass to make a fabric that's retro-compatible so we'll never see this


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## freeagent (Oct 12, 2021)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> Does what you have not meet your needs? Needing to always have the latest and greatest has always been expensive.


It more than meets my needs make no mistake.. but I like to dabble a bit @ hwbot


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## mechtech (Oct 12, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Hopefully these are drop in replacements for AM4 sockets so that AMD platform owners have a safe option on mature hardware to avoid the first-gen paying beta-tester gauntlet (with added early-adopter tax); It rarely pays to be in the first wave of new tech and Alder Lake is the first wave of lots of things at once - PCIe 5.0, Dual-architecture CPU, new socket, new chipsets, 10nm in a desktop power envelope at desktop clockspeeds...
> 
> Adding 64MB of extra cache to Zen3 should be a difficult thing to screw up; Zen architecture and motherboards already handle CPUs with a huge range of different cache sizes, this shouldn't be any different.
> 
> I dunno, maybe I'm being too cynical and_ this time _Intel won't screw up the launch....


I wonder if the 5700G will be on the list for a cache boost??


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## Tomorrow (Oct 12, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> My guess is zen 3+ will be on AM4 socket.


Ofcourse it will. Im baffled that the author even questions this. AM5 is not yet ready. 

And ofcourse AM4 coolers will be AM5 compatible.

And AMD has hybrid architecture in the works. Its slated for Zen 5. They wont confirm this yet for obvious reasons.


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## Patriot (Oct 12, 2021)

Nioktefe said:


> I hope AMD can make the bold move of releasing AM5 as soon as Q1 2022.
> Their CPU being chiplet, I don't see anything blocking them from releasing an io die for DDR5 sooner than the cpu chiplet, especially considering the IO die will probably use an older/cheaper process.
> They should even be able to release zen 4 on both AM4 and 5 if they go that way, although at this point it's way overly optimistic.
> 
> ...




TSMC's 3nm delay is holding them back from getting Zen4 out earlier Niok.
Apple is currently Eating the 5nm supply that AMD needs. Delaying 3 means delaying Zen4's 5nm launch.
AMD has been enjoying refined processes being a fast follower to Apple's bleeding edge fabbed chips.


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## LabRat 891 (Oct 12, 2021)

All highly expected news. Very excited nonetheless. 
Hopefully the 12 and 16 core variants will adopt the 6900 and 6950 naming. 
Why?
Because I'm immature.


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## Ellertis (Oct 12, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> AmD have a different CPU for mobile too you know, they haven't announced 3D cache for it, But, it will be due a update too.
> I can still see AMD gaining market share on laptops , a lot of them are not used portably and you can get a day of work based battery use on an AMD lapy now already Soo I dunno, we will see.
> 
> And as for higher end laptops, they're not run on battery often and Intel won't compete so well here either.
> ...


For sure, Cezzane and Renoir are very good versus Tiger Lake, at 15w TGL is a joke. Though alder lake might change that


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## Space Lynx (Oct 12, 2021)

I wish AMD would make more than one 6800m laptop... they literally only have one laptop with a zen cpu and 6800m gpu. its a bit silly considering how much time they have had...


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## HisDivineOrder (Oct 12, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I wish AMD would make more than one 6800m laptop... they literally only have one laptop with a zen cpu and 6800m gpu. its a bit silly considering how much time they have had...



I wish AMD would make more GPU's. As in actually manufacture more.


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## Space Lynx (Oct 12, 2021)

HisDivineOrder said:


> I wish AMD would make more GPU's. As in actually manufacture more.



the reason i point out the laptop one specifically is it seems almost like a publicity stunt cause its literally singular laptop in an ocean of nvidia laptops... just annoys me


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## GURU7OF9 (Oct 12, 2021)

Ellertis said:


> From my perspective the E cores in alder lake in are there for a better multithread performance scaling in a given thermal package. Yes, power efficiency is more important in mobile where the power requirements are even more important. Though that doesn't mean you wouldn't get a performance uplift on desktop.
> I still see a lot of people complaining about the E cores, saying they are worthless, when in fact a well multithreaded application will perform better than the only P core cpu, because the E cores are much better in a die size/energy efficiency ratio. 4 E cores take as much die size as 1 P core, though perform about 50%ish better in restricted power environment.


So what you are really saying is alder lake on the desktop runs too hot to have all big cores !
Or are you saying e cores really should be used for all p core locations cos they are faster and more energy efficient?
And the p cores are only there for single thread performance !


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## Ellertis (Oct 12, 2021)

GURU7OF9 said:


> So what you are really saying is alder lake on the desktop runs too hot to have all big cores !
> Or are you saying e cores really should be used for all p core locations cos they are faster and more energy efficient?
> And the p cores are only their for single thread performance !


"Runs too hot" really depends on how pushed is it from the box, for example, zen 3 is more efficient than zen2, but its being pushed very hard with its boost algorithm. Does it mean zen3 is bad, no, because any cpu can be way more power efficient simply by underclocking and undervolting a tiny bit. Imo, pushing any cpu/gpu just for those 5-10% is a bit useless. What am I trying to say is, any cpu can run very hot, and every cpu can run very cool, while still performing decently. The E cores in alder lake are there for better multithread performance scaling in a given power package, not because it's too hot, it would be with only P cores, though not necessarily. Man it turns in a hell of a ramble, ehh. Basically, P and E cores strategy is very precise balancing act between cost(die size)/Power/Performance


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## GURU7OF9 (Oct 12, 2021)

Ellertis said:


> "Runs too hot" really depends on how pushed is it from the box, for example, zen 3 is more efficient than zen2, but its being pushed very hard with its boost algorithm. Does it mean zen3 is bad, no, because any cpu can be way more power efficient simply by underclocking and undervolting a tiny bit. Imo, pushing any cpu/gpu just for those 5-10% is a bit useless. What am I trying to say is, any cpu can run very hot, and every cpu can run very cool, while still performing decently. The E cores in alder lake are there for better multithread performance scaling in a given power package, not because it's too hot, it would be with only P cores, though not necessarily. Man it turns in a hell of a ramble, ehh. Basically, P and E cores strategy is very precise balancing act between cost(die size)/Power/Performance


Well it will certainly be very  interesting to see how it all turns out !  Roll on Nov  4th !
Just got to sort through all the spin from the  facts!


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## nemesis.ie (Oct 12, 2021)

freeagent said:


> This is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest


Erm, AMD's motherboard stay current a lot longer than the "other folks".
If you buy a board with a socket that has been out for several years already, what do you expect?
Or do you just mean you didn't anticipate the new thing coming so soon?  At least you'll be able pop in a new CPU and just sell the old one as a stop-gap if you like.


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## Selaya (Oct 12, 2021)

Ellertis said:


> "Runs too hot" really depends on how pushed is it from the box, for example, zen 3 is more efficient than zen2, but its being pushed very hard with its boost algorithm [ ... ]


That's just the 5800X tho, and only for MT (unless I'm missing something?), but that SKU (the -800X is that) has had been _Bad Ideas About Ryzen_ since forever basically, so.


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## windwhirl (Oct 12, 2021)

Tomorrow said:


> Ofcourse it will. Im baffled that the author even questions this.


Better to leave it shrouded in doubt just in case AMD isn't completely clear on the matter. Better safe than sorry.


lynx29 said:


> I wish AMD would make more than one 6800m laptop... they literally only have one laptop with a zen cpu and 6800m gpu. its a bit silly considering how much time they have had...


It also depends on laptop makers being actually interested, sadly. And Nvidia has a near absolute hold of the market, so AMD will have to invest heavily in that sector.


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## freeagent (Oct 12, 2021)

nemesis.ie said:


> Erm, AMD's motherboard stay current a lot longer than the "other folks".
> If you buy a board with a socket that has been out for several years already, what do you expect?
> Or do you just mean you didn't anticipate the new thing coming so soon?  At least you'll be able pop in a new CPU and just sell the old one as a stop-gap if you like.


Their boards are current because they haven't changed anything 

Seems like a good way to save money on R+D..

I knew they were dropping a new line of CPU's, and I heard it was for AM4, but part of me was hoping that was not true. I have been on AM4 for 11 months now. I own a 5600X and a 5900X, soon I guess I will own an XT or whatever its called. Just a little miffed that's all. You drop 800 bucks on a CPU only to have a new one come out just a few months later and lemme know how you feel about it


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## windwhirl (Oct 12, 2021)

freeagent said:


> You drop 800 bucks on a CPU only to have a new one come out just a few months later and lemme know how you feel about it



Uh, there's been like a new launch every year for years now, it was kinda foreseeable.


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## Arc1t3ct (Oct 12, 2021)

whatever they release for am4 it won’t be enough to counter alder lake.


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## Space Lynx (Oct 12, 2021)

Arc1t3ct said:


> whatever they release for am4 it won’t be enough to counter alder lake.



it should be some interesting benches this Fall.


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## Ellertis (Oct 12, 2021)

Arc1t3ct said:


> whatever they release for am4 it won’t be enough to counter alder lake.


Zen3d will beat it in single threaded and multithreaded, maybe not in power efficiency though


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## Nephilim666 (Oct 12, 2021)

Did they say anything about threadripper? Surely the delays to that means they're implementing 3d cache with Zen 3 on trx40... Please AMD


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## AVATARAT (Oct 12, 2021)

Arc1t3ct said:


> whatever they release for am4 it won’t be enough to counter alder lake.


Zen3+ will be faster in games and cache programs, Intel will be faster in multithread because of more cores.
If Zen3+ came on AM4 this will be a plus because we will need to change only CPU but not mobo(+ram).
So both companies will be in a win-win situation.


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## Wirko (Oct 12, 2021)

AMD could potentially combine one chiplet with V-Cache and another one without it on a single Ryzen package, which would result in ... yeah, eight P cores and eight E cores!


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## freeagent (Oct 12, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Uh, there's been like a new launch every year for years now, it was kinda foreseeable.


Yeah well not for me, this was my first real upgrade in like 10 years, sorry if I am a little miffed.


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## PYRO1125 (Oct 12, 2021)

Currently using an ASrock x470 taichi with a 5950x and it's been amazing. Now being this is still Zen 3 and the same socket I don't see why this shouldn't work in all AMD 400 series boards. Did AMD say anything about 400 series being supported?  Can't find any info about it.


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## Minus Infinity (Oct 12, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> AmD have a different CPU for mobile too you know, they haven't announced 3D cache for it, But, it will be due a update too.
> I can still see AMD gaining market share on laptops , a lot of them are not used portably and you can get a day of work based battery use on an AMD lapy now already Soo I dunno, we will see.
> 
> And as for higher end laptops, they're not run on battery often and Intel won't compete so well here either.
> ...



Given Cezanne is mentioned in the AMD roadmap as featuring Zen3+just like Warhol  it seems certain to have 3D cache. They have the lower end Barcelo that will be Zen3 + Vega8, while Cezanne is Zen3+ + RDNA2. Some analysts have categforically stated Warhol/Cezanne will be AM4 only Zen4 is AM5.

I think the reason why Zen3+ is Q1 2022 is it's on 6nm, new node will need more time to get tested.


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## glsn (Oct 12, 2021)

why don't they make a skinned cpu, so it can watercool with the rising sealevel?


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## mechtech (Oct 12, 2021)

Erazor6000 said:


> +18% more fps in DOTA 2 compared to Ryzen 9 5900X, considering that no architectural changes were made and the clock speed is the same.
> That's impressive, just think about what Zen4 will be.


Probably game dependant.  I was kind of surprised that the 5800x vs the 5700g in borderlands 3 was about 20% difference, with basically the cache being the only major difference and clocks only a minor difference.








						AMD Ryzen 7 5700G Review - Great Performance & Integrated Graphics
					

With the Ryzen 7 5700G, AMD is finally bringing their most powerful APU to the retail DIY channel. With 512 graphics cores based on the Vega architecture, the IGP is over twice as fast as Intel's Rocket Lake graphics. Thanks to the Zen 3 architecture, the eight CPU cores are blazing fast, too.




					www.techpowerup.com


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## First Strike (Oct 13, 2021)

One question remains. Will they use 3D V-Cache on zen4?

My guess is probably not. That would make things interesting.


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## freeagent (Oct 13, 2021)

First Strike said:


> One question remains. Will they use 3D V-Cache on zen4?
> 
> My guess is probably not. That would make things interesting.


I don't see what they wouldn't.. its probably the one thing they could carryover from AM5..


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## windwhirl (Oct 13, 2021)

glsn said:


> why don't they make a skinned cpu, so it can watercool with the rising sealevel?


Liquid immersive cooling of entire builds (mobo+CPU+RAM+etc.) is a thing, just so you know.


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## AVATARAT (Oct 13, 2021)

PYRO1125 said:


> Currently using an ASrock x470 taichi with a 5950x and it's been amazing. Now being this is still Zen 3 and the same socket I don't see why this shouldn't work in all AMD 400 series boards. Did AMD say anything about 400 series being supported?  Can't find any info about it.


I suppouse that Zen3+ will be available only for 500 chipset.


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## First Strike (Oct 13, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I don't see what they wouldn't.. its probably the one thing they could carryover from AM5..


I think they may choose yield over cache when Apple is stilling hogging TSMC 5nm production, when this packaging technology is still new. 
In that case, they can still use the process improvement to fit more cache in. But not as many as 3x though.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 13, 2021)

glsn said:


> why don't they make a skinned cpu, so it can watercool with the rising sealevel?


So we get moaning about school and this, on a tech forum, go you


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## AVATARAT (Oct 13, 2021)

glsn said:


> why don't they make a skinned cpu, so it can watercool with the rising sealevel?


It's not so new but:
TSMC Mulls On-Chip Water-Cooling for Future High-Performance Silicon​


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## PYRO1125 (Oct 13, 2021)

AVATARAT said:


> I suppouse that Zen3+ will be available only for 500 chipset.


Well crap lol I mean they should support it it's the same socket and still zen3, maybe if some board manufacturers make a beta bios


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## First Strike (Oct 13, 2021)

zen3+ is delayed (compare to previous Q4 2021 / "before end of the year") and thus missing the holiday season. Alder Lake is also delayed to November. Chip shortages, meh.

Just hope those interesting chips next year won't be affected much. Most importantly, zen4.


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## AVATARAT (Oct 13, 2021)

PYRO1125 said:


> Well crap lol I mean they should support it it's the same socket and still zen3, maybe if some board manufacturers make a beta bios


EVGA join AMD with the last train, and they will produce only X570S, and because of that, I suppose this.
I can't see any other reason why they will produce AM4 at all.


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## PYRO1125 (Oct 13, 2021)

AVATARAT said:


> EVGA join AMD with the last train, and they will produce only X570S, and because of that, I suppose this.
> I can't see any other reason why they will produce AM4 at all.


Time will tell if ASRock will support the new zen3 chips or this will be the end of the line.


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## Ellertis (Oct 13, 2021)

Nephilim666 said:


> Did they say anything about threadripper? Surely the delays to that means they're implementing 3d cache with Zen 3 on trx40... Please AMD


Of course they are, if I recall correctly, it comes out


Minus Infinity said:


> Given Cezanne is mentioned in the AMD roadmap as featuring Zen3+just like Warhol  it seems certain to have 3D cache. They have the lower end Barcelo that will be Zen3 + Vega8, while Cezanne is Zen3+ + RDNA2. Some analysts have categforically stated Warhol/Cezanne will be AM4 only Zen4 is AM5.
> 
> I think the reason why Zen3+ is Q1 2022 is it's on 6nm, new node will need more time to get tested.


Zen 3+ is Rembrandt, and it has Rdna2


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## yotano211 (Oct 13, 2021)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> Considering that Adler Lake is not big.LITTLE across the product stack, I still wonder about the merits of the most powerful CPUs in the stack being the only ones with E cores, at least in desktop applications. Desktop CPUs already have good idle characteristics, and it’s not like you aren’t going to need a good PSU, motherboard, and cooler to get the most out of the best SKUs in the stack. Until we have hybrids across the entire stack, it just seems like it’s not going to matter on the desktop. Mobile might be another story, but even there one can get a really long unplugged experience under low to moderate use with what is already out there.


Intel still has to address their high idle watts on laptops. On battery power AMD kills it in battery length.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 13, 2021)

LabRat 891 said:


> All highly expected news. Very excited nonetheless.
> Hopefully the 12 and 16 core variants will adopt the 6900 and 6950 naming.
> Why?
> Because I'm immature.


I would call that logical, but what do I know, right?


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## InVasMani (Oct 13, 2021)

Zen3+ will be on AM4 with official support on x570/x570S and likely B550 chipsets. I wouldn't expect it, but extended support for x470 and B450 by AIB's isn't entirely improbable as well. Beyond that point I'd be skeptical of it being supported short of bios mods similar to Z170 and coffee lake.

It would make no practical sense for AM4 to force a new chipset for Zen 3+ on a new socket then switch the socket support to DDR5 and/or another new chipset shortly after for Zen4. That's just added expensive and with supply logistics right now with chip shortages would be asinine as well.

Risking losing a CPU sale to Intel for a newer socket and low margin chipset that's still based around DDR4 isn't worth it unless Zen3+ also bumps up memory channel support beyond dual channel. If they went with triple/quad channel DDR4 it's a long shot far fetched possibility, but with chip shortages I doubt very much for that to be the case. Let's just consider x570/x570S/B550 chipset all, but confirmed for Zen3+ because odds it isn't are in the order of 10 to 1 or greater. I'd absolutely like to be wrong on this though. I really wouldn't mind at all.

No worries tomorrow we'll see a leaked rumor by AdoredTV re-hashing more or less exactly what I said above with rumor mill in full hype mode. There are only so many viable options can take with this and a Zen 3+ on a new chipset and socket for DDR4 that just dual channel and PCIE 4.0 would be viewed horribly and be a bad chess move at the same time especially with chip shortages. Some people literally wouldn't be able to afford that transition and AMD could lose a sale to Intel as a direct result of trying to force their hand on MB transition.



windwhirl said:


> Liquid immersive cooling of entire builds (mobo+CPU+RAM+etc.) is a thing, just so you know.


Submerged mineral oil builds are among the most fascinating think outside the box cooling builds to consider. As a enthusiast the different angles you can take with one are a fun consideration. The ways to go about and why you might do one methodology over another is fun to contemplate. In fact you could combine liquid cooling with radiator with it. You might submerge a SFF case that can mount a radiator on the top right into a fish tank. In turn that would allow you to pump heat thru the radiator to dissapate into the air so the mineral oil ambient temperature doesn't rise as much.


----------



## glsn (Oct 13, 2021)

@TheoneandonlyMrK  I don't see any rule that does prohibit what to post under profile updates. my previous comment was an half joke, what sort of comment do you expect to be under some news article?


----------



## ViperXTR (Oct 13, 2021)

hmm i guess i wouldn't mind upgrading my 5800X to 6900X with 3d vcache after several years


----------



## sillyconjunkie (Oct 13, 2021)

It's a logical move to stay competitive. TSMC delay is ~3 months (for equipment build-out) for 3nm runs at present.  Apple isn't hogging production runs as they are scheduled in advance and different vendor runs are completed on dedicated lines with that much volume/demand. 

One important item of note:  The move to 3d cache will most likely result hotter running cores when compared with similar current offerings. 

Cache is the only item being stacked in the  update.  To keep the die flat, the rest of the space is a layer of fill/empty silicon which will insulate the remaining elements of the cores from the IHS to some degree(s)..

Why not just make the die size larger?  That would be better (cooler) but would necessitate a redesign.  The second layer  of cache piggybacks the substrate cache connections already in place in the current design.

Can't wait to see the results.  Competition drives progress.


----------



## PLSG08 (Oct 13, 2021)

I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?


----------



## Tomorrow (Oct 13, 2021)

PLSG08 said:


> I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?


In terms of SSD's PCIe 4.0 is actually saturated already. We have SSD's that do nearly 7500MB/s reads and nearly 7000MB/s writes. Theoretical limit is 8000MB/s but due to encoding and signaling losses this will never be reached. GPU's were never really bottlenecked even by PCIe 3.0 (atleast with 8 or more lanes) nor do they benefit massively from 4.0, 5.0 or 6.0

There are always standards that are shortlived and other that are long standing. For example DDR2 was fairly shortlived. As was GDDR4.


----------



## Guwapo77 (Oct 13, 2021)

freeagent said:


> This is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest


I'm in the same boat.  When I bought the 5950x, I thought it was the last of the AM4 generation.  Then I saw this v-cache crap...I must upgrade since I won't be apart of the AM5 crew until it matures.  4-25% is nothing to sneeze at either.  So I'm right there with you... /sigh


----------



## freeagent (Oct 13, 2021)

Guwapo77 said:


> I'm in the same boat.  When I bought the 5950x, I thought it was the last of the AM4 generation.  Then I saw this v-cache crap...I must upgrade since I won't be apart of the AM5 crew until it matures.  4-25% is nothing to sneeze at either.  So I'm right there with you... /sigh


That’s pretty much how I feel. Zen 3 was supposed to be the crown jewel for AM4.. not. I may just pass entirely on AM5.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 13, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Zen 3 was supposed to be the crown jewel for AM4.. not.


Wait, what now? Zen 3 is bad-ass and makes most of what is on offer by Intel look like amateur-hour. I'm deeply confused by your statement...



freeagent said:


> I may just pass entirely on AM5.


THAT would be a mistake...


----------



## freeagent (Oct 13, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wait, what now? Zen 3 is bad-ass and makes most of what is on offer by Intel look like amateur-hour. I'm deeply confused by your statement...
> 
> 
> THAT would be a mistake...


That is all true, not going to contest that.. but I was under the assumption (ha) that Zen3 would be the cap to AM4, and no more after that.. I got comfy with that idea lol..


----------



## windwhirl (Oct 13, 2021)

sillyconjunkie said:


> One important item of note: The move to 3d cache will most likely result hotter running cores when compared with similar current offerings.


From what was said, the temperature difference is supposed to be rather negligible. I don't quite remember for sure, but I think the V-Cache was going to be put on top of the existing L3 cache area, not on top of the cores. And the cache apparently doesn't really heat up as much as the cores.



PLSG08 said:


> I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?


Enterprise wants PCIE5, and since Ryzen uses the same chiplets than EPYC, it could be available to consumers too, simply because the design is the same. However, that will also depend on board manufacturers being interested in offering it to mainstream consumer market, since PCIE5 has tighter requirements, which might drive the motherboard costs even higher.


----------



## _Flare (Oct 13, 2021)

- Zen3D Q1 if said so explicit, means end of march, maybe early april
- AM5 "plattform" PCIe 5 able
- not clear if Zen4 is PCIe 5 able
- not clear if initial AM5 chipset is PCIe 5 able


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 13, 2021)

freeagent said:


> That is all true, not going to contest that.. but I was under the assumption (ha) that Zen3 would be the cap to AM4, and no more after that.. I got comfy with that idea lol..


Fair enough, but still confused. I thought Zen3 was the final iteration for AM4 and that Zen4 would be AM5 with DDR5 support. Is that not still true?


----------



## windwhirl (Oct 13, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fair enough, but still confused. I thought Zen3 was the final iteration for AM4 and that Zen4 would be AM5 with DDR5 support. Is that not still true?


AFAIK, that's sorta true. This Zen3+VCache would be the last product series for AM4.


----------



## AVATARAT (Oct 13, 2021)

freeagent said:


> That’s pretty much how I feel. Zen 3 was supposed to be the crown jewel for AM4.. not. I may just pass entirely on AM5.


Steps till now were Zen->Zen+ so we won't wonder that they release the Zen3+. The only lacking information was, whether they would do it on AM4 or put it on AM5.
It was supposed that these can be on AM4 because it is the refresh but at all, no one knows it.


----------



## InVasMani (Oct 13, 2021)

Well there was the recent x570S I don't think that was coincidental. Seems like advanced planning just ahead of Zen 3+ launch. It's a way to offer something a little more modern than the X570 to people adopt Zen 3+ and a motherboard even though it's largely the same.


----------



## Erazor6000 (Oct 13, 2021)

mechtech said:


> Probably game dependant.  I was kind of surprised that the 5800x vs the 5700g in borderlands 3 was about 20% difference, with basically the cache being the only major difference and clocks only a minor difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found DOTA 2 to be a highly CPU-Intensive game, just like League of Legends.

Zen3 CPUs are an excellent choice for these two MOBA games, in which the fps do matter.


----------



## sillyconjunkie (Oct 13, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> From what was said, the temperature difference is supposed to be rather negligible. I don't quite remember for sure, but I think the V-Cache was going to be put on top of the existing L3 cache area, not on top of the cores. And the cache apparently doesn't really heat up as much as the cores.



The temperature difference remains to be seen, obviously.  You are correct regarding placement as previously stated.  The different gate groups, with their associated logical functions, are arranged across a flat plane.  With the update, there is now everything on one plane and then an additional stack of cache which sits higher than the remainder of the die design.

To use standard cooling methods and keep the die flat, all of the area which sits next to the raised layer of cache needs to be filled with something..ie..silicon.  Silicon is not an ideal conductor of heat; transfers heat at a slower rate when compared to other materials.  Additionally, the lower of the two cache arrangements will most certainly run warmer than the stack closest to the heatsink.

Negligible or not, stacking is not ideal.  It's a move to curb ADL gains.  I surmise the next iteration of Zen will begin to move away from disparate chiplets back to a more monolithic design.


----------



## windwhirl (Oct 13, 2021)

sillyconjunkie said:


> Negligible or not, stacking is not ideal.


Can agree with that.


sillyconjunkie said:


> I surmise the next iteration of Zen will begin to move away from disparate chiplets back to a more monolithic design.


Seems unlikely, though I definitely think that AMD is considering trying to consolidate larger core numbers per chiplet. Though that will come more as a consequence of having good enough yields, IMO.


----------



## sillyconjunkie (Oct 13, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Can agree with that.
> 
> Seems unlikely, though I definitely think that AMD is considering trying to consolidate larger core numbers per chiplet. Though that will come more as a consequence of having good enough yields, IMO.



Regarding the first point.  I'm sure AMD had the option to fill the (non-cache) gap with a thin layer of copper insulated by silicon.  That option would transmit heat from lower layer to the IHS more efficiently but costs more to produce.

Regarding the second point..  Im pretty sure we're saying the same thing (again). Substrate Infinity fabric limitation is the long pole in the tent with the current design.  DDR5 should facilitate faster fabric speeds but memory controller efficiency and fabric design come into play.  Especially if denser core count chiplets are the go-forward plan.  I'm interested to see what happens with TR.  The lower core count Ryzen designs shouldn't be a huge issue.


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Oct 13, 2021)

Regarding thermals, the 3D cache is going to sit on top of the existing L3 cache, so the thermal hotspots of the CPU at least won’t be transmitting through anything but “thermally efficient” support silicon, according to AMD.

See the June 1 update on the link below.








						AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at 2 TB/sec
					






					www.anandtech.com


----------



## freeagent (Oct 13, 2021)

Well.. if these are going to be like XT CPU's then I will get one 

My 3600XT was great, hope its new owner feels the same.

I just want that 2000 FCLK 1:1, and the cache


----------



## Wirko (Oct 13, 2021)

sillyconjunkie said:


> Regarding the first point.  I'm sure AMD had the option to fill the (non-cache) gap with a thin layer of copper insulated by silicon.  That option would transmit heat from lower layer to the IHS more efficiently but costs more to produce.


A couple reasons why silicon might be a better choice, beside economics:
* issues with differences in thermal expansion between Cu and Si (you don't want to create a bimetallic strip)
* methods of bonding Si to Si may be less costly or less problematic than methods of bonding Si to Cu.


----------



## sillyconjunkie (Oct 14, 2021)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> Regarding thermals, the 3D cache is going to sit on top of the existing L3 cache, so the thermal hotspots of the CPU at least won’t be transmitting through anything but “thermally efficient” support silicon, according to AMD.
> 
> See the June 1 update on the link below.
> 
> ...



Damn marketing folks!  They're gonna run hotter..period!  You can mark, save, shortcut these words..



Wirko said:


> A couple reasons why silicon might be a better choice, beside economics:
> * issues with differences in thermal expansion between Cu and Si (you don't want to create this)
> * methods of bonding Si to Si may be less costly or less problematic than methods of bonding Si to Cu.



I know enough not to click on "this" links.  If stacking was a viable, non-stop-gap solution, multiple chip designers would be using it already.  Why is this so hard to understand without marketing blurbs and fancy words?

Are we doing the periodic table of elements now?  Sweet!

Si is a go-to choice for processing dies because it doesn't "thermally expand".  It retains its atomic structure when heat stressed (to a logical processor construction/operation threshold). 

Si based dies are full of Cu traces!  Why do yall insist on this bs spin gibberish..?


----------



## MWK (Oct 14, 2021)

Thank God  at least my x570 crosshair 8 hero can get a 2 years of  CPU upgrade from a 3950x. 
Games will be optimised better for rDNA 2 and Ryzen - Xbox series x and ps5 has a the cpu and GPU. Never underestimate AMD.


----------



## Wirko (Oct 14, 2021)

sillyconjunkie said:


> I know enough not to click on "this" links.


Corrected.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 14, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> My guess is zen 3+ will be on AM4 socket.


Lets hope its not a AM4+ socket which would die off instantly after the new AM5 is released. AMD would do better to ensure this is a drop in processor.  



lynx29 said:


> I wish AMD would make more than one 6800m laptop... they literally only have one laptop with a zen cpu and 6800m gpu. its a bit silly considering how much time they have had...


Sometimes it feels like they have such opportunities & they don't seem to take advantage of them fully.


----------



## InVasMani (Oct 14, 2021)

The L3 doesn't get significantly hot anyway relative to L2 and L1 cache. The portion that is added will draw heat towards the IHS either way and probably adds a degree or two of heat at best anyway which is more than a NVME sticker would help cool.



Super XP said:


> Lets hope its not a AM4+ socket which would die off instantly after the new AM5 is released. AMD would do better to ensure this is a drop in processor.
> 
> 
> Sometimes it feels like they have such opportunities & they don't seem to take advantage of them fully.



The alternative is AM4 dies off now. I don't think that's a better alternative. A lot of people could potentially upgrade from their AM4 board if supported. Yes MB lifespan for someone buying into AM4 motherboard with a Zen3+ chip is halted, but if the performance is good not a bad option especially if it's the best option consideration for the DDR4 memory standard for dual channel at least. Waiting on Zen 4 would probably be better, but also require DDR5. AMD Zen 4 doesn't support DDR4 however so Zen 3+ AM5 board that wouldn't be able to support Zen 4 either way due to the memory issue nor would the motherboard support Zen4. Here's yet another angle at the situation someone could buy a high end AM4 motherboard that supports Zen3+ and a earlier Ryzen chip and later upgrade to a higher end Zen 3+ chip and it wouldn't die off instantly yet provide them with a affordable upgrade path plus the weaker chip might get passed along to another person as a upgrade.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 14, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> The L3 doesn't get significantly hot anyway relative to L2 and L1 cache. The portion that is added will draw heat towards the IHS either way and probably adds a degree or two of heat at best anyway which is more than a NVME sticker would help cool.
> 
> 
> 
> The alternative is AM4 dies off now. I don't think that's a better alternative. A lot of people could potentially upgrade from their AM4 board if supported. Yes MB lifespan for someone buying into AM4 motherboard with a Zen3+ chip is halted, but if the performance is good not a bad option especially if it's the best option consideration for the DDR4 memory standard for dual channel at least. Waiting on Zen 4 would probably be better, but also require DDR5. AMD Zen 4 doesn't support DDR4 however so Zen 3+ AM5 board that wouldn't be able to support Zen 4 either way due to the memory issue nor would the motherboard support Zen4. Here's yet another angle at the situation someone could buy a high end AM4 motherboard that supports Zen3+ and a earlier Ryzen chip and later upgrade to a higher end Zen 3+ chip and it wouldn't die off instantly yet provide them with a affordable upgrade path plus the weaker chip might get passed along to another person as a upgrade.


My Sentiments Exactly


----------



## DonQuixoteIII (Oct 15, 2021)

Lessee...  AMD has, what, 4 different main sockets?  AM4, WRX 8 and TRX4, and SP3.  This bit of marketing fluff ONLY addressed the EOL AM4 socket.  What about products for WRX8?  Or TRX4? Not mentioned...  Why?Because they come from the EPYC stack, and AMD can't fill the EPYC orders as it is. So don't talk about fight club, OK?


----------



## GURU7OF9 (Oct 15, 2021)

DonQuixoteIII said:


> Lessee...  AMD has, what, 4 different main sockets?  AM4, WRX 8 and TRX4, and SP3.  This bit of marketing fluff ONLY addressed the EOL AM4 socket.  What about products for WRX8?  Or TRX4? Not mentioned...  Why?Because they come from the EPYC stack, and AMD can't fill the EPYC orders as it is. So don't talk about fight club, OK?


You are just being a dick up on your high horse!  
It would be very hard for them to do fab orders. They have a limited supply from TSMC and if the product is super good then it probly won't be enough and throw in chip shortages,  then  its probly well short of the amount needed.
If the product is not so good then you have probly over ordered and will be stuck with excess and trying to flog it off to recoup some of your loss. They are not any where near as big especially financially as Intel who could absorb it much better . Plus they make their own chips. 
If AMD  weren't so successful with Epyc and Thread Ripper then Intel would still be shoving 4core cpus down our throats and make you pay through the nose!  
It has reinvigorated a very stagnant industry!


----------



## RoutedScripter (Oct 17, 2021)

Yeah kinda makes sense to polish the newer archs and give it more time and also not skimp out on PCIe5 like it was rumored to not be, one more AM4 upgrade is good because we can stick with Win10 and the older set, I don't want to move to Win11 anytime soon and even if AM5 and next gen goes ape-crazy mode with Win11-only, and besides for marketing if nothing else at least they can meme all the number fives, AM5, DDR5, PCIe5 ... tripple 5 actioooon!!!!

With the whole TPM and security obsession more programs could be locked out of support even if they don't necessairly need Win11 it self as an OS platform, it's really all subjective in programming what the program is designed to support and it's usually someone's decision to not support something, singleplayer games or those with SP modes shouldn't outright warrant all of this, only should enforce the requirement when multiplayer and anti-cheat's are launched.


----------



## trsttte (Oct 18, 2021)

PLSG08 said:


> I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?



Because the development got several delays, by the time they finally shipped it 5.0 was almost out the door as well (the spec for 5.0 was ready before the first implementations of 4.0 even got to market)


----------



## InVasMani (Oct 18, 2021)

Not to mention NVME changed the desire for faster PCIE speeds fairly dramatically. Even though it do a real lot on access latency beyond a SSD the bandwidth and I/O is still a lot higher so you reduce load times significantly especially at higher resolutions.


----------



## seth1911 (Oct 19, 2021)

Blah blah blah, since they shit of persons like mine.
Without release Renoir or the 5300G on the retail market, il piss on AMD too.

Shithole Company


----------



## yotano211 (Oct 19, 2021)

seth1911 said:


> Blah blah blah, since they shit of persons like mine.
> Without release Renoir or the 5300G on the retail market, il piss on AMD too.
> 
> Shithole Company


If you dont like AMD that much, why are you using a A10 7870K for your processor.


----------



## MarcusNumb (Oct 19, 2021)

I'm so happy that my gaming rig based on 3600x and 3070ti has an upgrade path now. I'm imagining a Zen3+ CPU and my 3070ti, with them I can keep gaming (1080p) in 5 to 7 years with no worries.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 19, 2021)

MarcusNumb said:


> I'm so happy that my gaming rig based on 3600x and 3070ti has an upgrade path now.


Well, technically, it has two. The Ryzen 5xxx CPU's and these new ones.


----------



## N3M3515 (Oct 20, 2021)

Q1 2022?, so when is ryzen 4 going to arrive? 2023? i smell trouble for AMD.


----------



## windwhirl (Oct 20, 2021)

N3M3515 said:


> Q1 2022?, so when is ryzen 4 going to arrive? 2023? i smell trouble for AMD.


According to TPU's Upcoming Hardware Launches, Mid/Late 2022








						Upcoming Hardware Launches 2022 (Updated Nov 2022)
					

This article serves as a continuously updated summary of currently known leaks and official announcements regarding upcoming hardware releases in 2022 and beyond. We cover and keep track of developments for Intel Meteor Lake, AMD Zen 4 X3D, NVIDIA's new GeForce 40 GPUs, DDR6 and GDDR7 memory...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




So, that's like 9 months to choose


----------



## N3M3515 (Oct 20, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> According to TPU's Upcoming Hardware Launches, Mid/Late 2022
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what's zen 3 with 3d cache for?, no smart person would buy it when zen 4 is around the corner...


----------



## Tomorrow (Oct 20, 2021)

N3M3515 said:


> So what's zen 3 with 3d cache for?, no smart person would buy it when zen 4 is around the corner...


Umm all AM4 owners who do not wish to change platform and RAM?


----------



## windwhirl (Oct 20, 2021)

N3M3515 said:


> So what's zen 3 with 3d cache for?, no smart person would buy it when zen 4 is around the corner...


Zen4 will not work on AM4, so this Zen3+VCache will be the last product line for AM4. I'm considering getting one to upgrade my 3600 to whatever the equivalent for a 5900X + Vcache is named


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 20, 2021)

N3M3515 said:


> So what's zen 3 with 3d cache for?, no smart person would buy it when zen 4 is around the corner...


I dunno ddr5 isn't going to be cheap for a year or two post release.
And some of us allowed for in step upgrades until a board swap is actually needed.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 20, 2021)

N3M3515 said:


> Q1 2022?, so when is ryzen 4 going to arrive? 2023? i smell trouble for AMD.


Then you should not trust your sense of smell. AMD will be fine.



N3M3515 said:


> So what's zen 3 with 3d cache for?, no smart person would buy it when zen 4 is around the corner...


That's your opinion and not a very good one. Current Ryzen CPU's are a great purchase choice as they will provide excellent performance for at least the next 4 years and the new lot with the VCache will be even better.


----------



## N3M3515 (Oct 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's your opinion and not a very good one. Current Ryzen CPU's are a great purchase choice as they will provide excellent performance for at least the next 4 years and the new lot with the VCache will be even better.


It's like you did not even know what i'm talking about. You did not understand.


----------



## MarcusNumb (Oct 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Well, technically, it has two. The Ryzen 5xxx CPU's and these new ones.


I know but upgrading 3600x to 5600x is not really worth it, imo. The 5800x is kinda too hot and 5900x o 5950x  are absolutely way too much. BTW, it will be the last cpu for am4 so I'm looking foward to something worth upgrading then stay with them for the next 5 to 7 years before thinking about changing my rig.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 20, 2021)

MarcusNumb said:


> I know but upgrading 3600x to 5600x is not really worth it, imo. The 5800x is kinda too hot


The 5800X is not that hot, even under load and while you're right, the 5600X is not a good upgrade from a 3600X, a 5800X is. With the VCache models coming it might be wise to see what they have to offer.


MarcusNumb said:


> BTW, it will be the last cpu for am4 so I'm looking foward to something worth upgrading then stay with them for the next 5 to 7 years before thinking about changing my rig.


True, the VCache models will be the last for socket AM4. That does not mean that AM4 is a bad choice. I just means that people getting into a rig based on it will have to accept that the upgrade path will be limited to faster CPU's in the that lineup. This dynamic has been the same since the days of the 40pin 8086.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 20, 2021)

MarcusNumb said:


> I know but upgrading 3600x to 5600x is not really worth it, imo. The 5800x is kinda too hot and 5900x o 5950x  are absolutely way too much. BTW, it will be the last cpu for am4 so I'm looking foward to something worth upgrading then stay with them for the next 5 to 7 years before thinking about changing my rig.


Great that's you covered!?.

Intel buyers take it for granted they'll update board every other week 

Others bought the upgrade path like me 5990x or weva with 3dvcache is a decent upgrade from a 3800X, and before the reply I don't just Game either, it will be used here.


Then wait till ddr5 is actually better than top bin ddr4 and the right price, then update again.


----------



## windwhirl (Oct 20, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Great that's you covered!?.
> 
> Intel buyers take it for granted they'll update board every other week
> 
> ...


Kinda planning the same: get a 5900X with Vcache to replace my current 3600 (non-X) and hold on to that system for a few years. I'll give it some use with WCG, a VM or two, and some gaming too, but it doesn't justify going for a 5950X so, I'm willing to go up to a 12core and call it a few years lol


----------



## seth1911 (Oct 20, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> If you dont like AMD that much, why are you using a A10 7870K for your processor.


AMD was a good Company in Old Days, but today its in my opinion totaly garbage


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 20, 2021)

seth1911 said:


> AMD was a good Company in Old Days, but today its in my opinion totaly garbage


And the relevance of that answer to his question is?! Or the relevance of it to this thread is?!.

Hold up, Are you saying that Kaveri was the golden age?! I gotta big, belly laughing wtaf for that thought.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 20, 2021)

seth1911 said:


> but today its in my opinion totaly garbage


I can not agree with this AMD is knocking it out of the park in many area's of computing. Innovative products, solid product advancement, customer based support AND taking customer input onboard. AMD is a great company presently!


----------



## InVasMani (Oct 20, 2021)

Tomorrow said:


> Umm all AM4 owners who do not wish to change platform and RAM?


This and even just the latter situation of not wanting to discard ram though due to frequency scaling, PCIE 5.0, pricing, and IMC performance I have a feeling Alder Lake will be more compelling for me personally. It's better suited for what I'm after.


----------



## medi01 (Oct 20, 2021)

Please, AMD, do not do the "mix size cores" bazinga.

What the heck is the point in a world where H series CPU notebooks last 10+ hours???


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 20, 2021)

medi01 said:


> Please, AMD, do not do the "mix size cores" bazinga.
> 
> What the heck is the point in a world where H series CPU notebooks last 10+ hours???


I think you're missing some context. This article & thread is about the desktop CPU line. They didn't focus on the mobile lineup.


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## yotano211 (Oct 20, 2021)

seth1911 said:


> AMD was a good Company in Old Days, but today its in my opinion totaly garbage


AMD was last good over 10yrs ago, today its a good company that has been turned around. 
Why do you hate them, give a reason.


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## Wirko (Oct 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> True, the VCache models will be the last for socket AM4. That does not mean that AM4 is a bad choice. I just means that people getting into a rig based on it will have to accept that the upgrade path will be limited to faster CPU's in the that lineup. This dynamic has been the same since the days of the 40pin 8086.


Even after Zen 4 launches, AMD probably won't be able to order as many 5 nm wafers as they would like, so supply will be tight. It's only logical that they keep improving whatever they have on 7 nm, for both desktops and servers. Some HPC customers might be _very _interested in Epyc Milan processors with three times the cache.


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## MarcusNumb (Oct 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> The 5800X is not that hot, even under load and while you're right, the 5600X is not a good upgrade from a 3600X, a 5800X is. With the VCache models coming it might be wise to see what they have to offer.
> 
> True, the VCache models will be the last for socket AM4. That does not mean that AM4 is a bad choice. I just means that people getting into a rig based on it will have to accept that the upgrade path will be limited to faster CPU's in the that lineup. This dynamic has been the same since the days of the 40pin 8086.


I'm not saying AMD is a bad choice, on the contrary my last gpu was the 5700xt, I totally support them to challenge Intel the way they are doing with Zen CPUs. On the gpu side, I upgraded to a 3070ti simply because I was able to sell my 5700xt for 600euros, after 1 year using it, and bought that 3070ti for 850euros. BTW, I'm gaming on 1080p so I'm really hoping for a 5700 version with V Cache so it will be perfect for my rig. If not then I'll have to consider the 5600x o 5800x with V Cache. Let's see how AMD surprises us.


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## medi01 (Oct 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think you're missing some context. This article & thread is about the desktop CPU line. They didn't focus on the mobile lineup.


Intel is about to introduce smaller cores for desktop.
If it doesn't make sense for mobile world, it makes even less sense in desktops.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 21, 2021)

medi01 said:


> Intel is about to introduce smaller cores for desktop.
> If it doesn't make sense for mobile world, it makes even less sense in desktops.


We'll see. Some say it's a good idea. I personally see potential if they do it right. Time and testing will tell.


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## seth1911 (Oct 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> And the relevance of that answer to his question is?! Or the relevance of it to this thread is?!.
> 
> Hold up, Are you saying that Kaveri was the golden age?! I gotta big, belly laughing wtaf for that thought.


Dont tell things that im not write and say. Ignored


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## Wirko (Oct 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> We'll see. Some say it's a good idea. I personally see potential if they do it right. Time and testing will tell.


I agree. I expect four E cores to be able to process more instructions per seconds than one P core, possibly at lower power consumption, while taking up the same chip area.

And yes, the "time" component matters a lot here. Chances of Intel + MS having an (almost) flawless scheduler ready by 4th November 2021 are small.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 21, 2021)

Wirko said:


> I expect four E cores to be able to process more instructions per seconds than one P core, possibly at lower power consumption, while taking up the same chip area.


This is why we need testing. I suspect that 4 e-cores will be able to do a bit better than 1 p-core, but only just. The rumor is that one e-core has the same performance as one old Core2 Conroe core, which would not be shabby. If this is true, then Intel might be on to something because a Core2Quad can Windows 11 smoothly all by itself. And with the new i5 you add 6 p-core on top of that and you have the potential for something really interesting. And with the i7 you double those 4 e-cores and add 8 p-cores, then you're talking potential for something game-changing, without breaking anyone's bank..


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 21, 2021)

seth1911 said:


> Dont tell things that im not write and say. Ignored


Noice, you wrote things no one understands the point of.

As for the shit posting above @lexluthermiester 

There's a thread for that, never mind Ahhzz will nuke the shit out of alll.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Noice, you wrote things no one understands the point of.
> 
> As for the shit posting above @lexluthermiester
> 
> There's a thread for that, never mind Ahhzz will nuke the shit out of alll.


What did I miss?


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is why we need testing. I suspect that 4 e-cores will be able to do a bit better than 1 p-core, but only just. The rumor is that one e-core has the same performance as one old Core2 Conroe core, which would not be shabby. If this is true, then Intel might be on to something because a Core2Quad can Windows 11 smoothly all by itself. And with the new i5 you add 6 p-core on top of that and you have the potential for something really interesting. And with the i7 you double those 4 e-cores and add 8 p-cores, then you're talking potential for something game-changing, without breaking anyone's bank..


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## InVasMani (Oct 21, 2021)

The 2c 8c design actually looked most interesting if Intel made that unlocked for both core types as like a Pentium Gold style chip it would probably be good affordable option. I can see pushing 2 of those P cores to 5.2/5.3GHz at lot more readily and easily than 8 of them. I actually think Intel should've gone further on the little cores a 2c 16c design probably could've been feasible or at least a 3c 12c design. We won't know the full extent and capability until independent benchmarks have a chance to experiment with the hardware further. If the little cores aren't more efficient it would be the most counterintuitive architecture design since Bulldozer.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 21, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> The 2c 8c design actually looked most interesting if Intel made that unlocked for both core types as like a Pentium Gold style chip it would probably be good affordable option. I can see pushing 2 of those P cores to 5.2/5.3GHz at lot more readily and easily than 8 of them. I actually think Intel should've gone further on the little cores a 2c 16c design probably could've been feasible or at least a 3c 12c design. We won't know the full extent and capability until independent benchmarks have a chance to experiment with the hardware further. If the little cores aren't more efficient it would be the most counterintuitive architecture design since Bulldozer.


Ah, but if AMD wanted to do the big/little thing with VCache, they could lean on the fact that each CPU already has room for multiple dies and they could do 8 Ryzen cores on one die connected to the CCX and a die with 8 Zambezi cores connected to the CCX through the other die connection. The Zambezi cores were decently power efficient for their time and would be drastically more so now on 7nm. All they'd need to do is recycle/retool the die design, change the power profile and BAM, BOB's your uncle!


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## InVasMani (Oct 21, 2021)

The mixed chip approach will get better in time especially as the OS evolves and is better at leveraging the hardware approach. I can see plenty of options for AMD with how they could approach it. It's only a matter of time before AMD similarly adopts big little especially if Intel has struck a delicate balance with it some positive results. 

We've already seen plenty that it works for mobile and that a market that AMD hasn't tapped into aggressively enough at the same time. I think it's probably something AMD would start with on the mobile side and later adapt to the desktop after a trial run with mobile platform for a architecture revision or two to iron out some of the quirks with it.


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## trsttte (Oct 24, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> The mixed chip approach will get better in time especially as the OS evolves and is better at leveraging the hardware approach. I can see plenty of options for AMD with how they could approach it. It's only a matter of time before AMD similarly adopts big little especially if Intel has struck a delicate balance with it some positive results.
> 
> We've already seen plenty that it works for mobile and that a market that AMD hasn't tapped into aggressively enough at the same time. I think it's probably something AMD would start with on the mobile side and later adapt to the desktop after a trial run with mobile platform for a architecture revision or two to iron out some of the quirks with it.



I don't think it's about if it will get better or not, it's about do we need it? On a regular desktop, there's a couple services that can "benefit" from having a low power core to them, but otherwise what do we need efficiency core for, to constantly run the ads algorithms?


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## InVasMani (Oct 24, 2021)

Notch filters are awesome that's why. If I have to explain that further you don't get it.


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## GURU7OF9 (Nov 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> This is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest


So youre saying its ok when Intel does it with Rocket Lake and Alder Lake but not AMD.

  At least you can get an upgrade with drop in 3D V cache.  Rocket Lake people are screwed after only 6 months!


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## nico_80) (Nov 21, 2021)

as a x570 owner i will try the  zen 3 + as a upgrade to the zen 2 3700x i got should be a good upgrade.


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## GURU7OF9 (Nov 21, 2021)

nico_80) said:


> as a x570 owner i will try the  zen 3 + as a upgrade to the zen 2 3700x i got should be a good upgrade.


I will probly  give it a go too. 
They say on average it's approx 15% better for gaming. Will wait for some reviews first but ... to see how much it helps. Maybe even switch up with more cores from my 5600x.


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