# NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Ti Founders Edition



## W1zzard (Apr 29, 2022)

The GeForce RTX 3090 Ti Founders Edition is NVIDIA's mightiest card from the Ampere lineup. We previously looked at various custom designs. Today, we're checking out the Founders Edition to test how well it does in terms of heat and noise, and whether it's an alternative to the even more expensive custom designs.

*Show full review*


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## Durvelle27 (Apr 29, 2022)

Wow the value of this is so bad


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## RedelZaVedno (Apr 29, 2022)

Ngreedia is exploring new horizons. $2000 room heater that can game. A winner on cold winter nights & a heatstroke challenger on hot summer days. What more can one ask for?


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## NDown (Apr 29, 2022)

lol and here i thought the 2080Ti value was BAD when it was launched


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## RedelZaVedno (Apr 29, 2022)

Joking aside, dGPU market is totally FU atm  I'm afraid AMD & Ngreedia are flirting more and more with "audiophile" territory. I can imagine dGPUs targeting only the rich & "kidney sellers", everyone else being sentenced to APUs or consoles in just a few years time


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## Just Some Noise (Apr 29, 2022)

This is why we need Intel Arc to be competetive.
NVidia clearly only wants a halo product with the 3090 Ti.
And lets be honest, i do not think that AMD will be any better with the refreshed RX6XXX Series.

So lets hope Intel will do something good for the market with their graphics cards.


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## ModEl4 (Apr 29, 2022)

3 slots 450W, i wonder if AD102 will be 4 slots then


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## PapaTaipei (Apr 29, 2022)

450 watts 82 degrees celcius 42 db = NO


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## wheresmycar (Apr 29, 2022)

Dear Nvidia,

Please ignore all the haters. All they do is complain.

I'm really impressed, its only $2000. Thanks NVIDIA!! you're the best  I sold my car last time to get a 2080 TI. I'm your biggest fan. For the 3090 TI i'm now selling my house, YAY. Love you lots, can't wait for the 4080 TI so I can throw myself under a bus and claim compensation. Should be enough I hope.

Yours sincerely,

X X X 
(thats not my name, *wink* *wink*)


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## mechtech (Apr 29, 2022)

"That's why we went the extra mile and purchased one of these $2000 cards to answer those questions."

Then returned it after testing for a full refund since it wasn't really what we wanted.


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## Valantar (Apr 29, 2022)

Durvelle27 said:


> Wow the value of this is so bad


The power consumption is worse 

@W1zzard i 
I have to point out the part of the conclusion where you say 


> Spending $2000 on a graphics card for your favorite hobby is possible for most middle-class workers in western countries, and those are not even considered "rich."


That's... dubious. Maybe for people with no other financial obligations. For anyone else, not even close. The median wage in the US is less than $20 000/year. Of course that's due to the US having a massive working class, many of which are better classified as working poor, with the middle class shrinking alongside stagnant wages for decades. But still, Saying "most middle class workers" can afford spending 10% of the country's median wage on a single item for a hobby? That's a significant stretch. There are absolutely plenty of not-rich people out there with expensive hobbies (cars, motorcycles, mountain bikes, photography, etc.), but that's still a relatively small group of relatively privileged people. "Most" is nowhere near accurate, and ultimately just serves to justify what is a ludicrous price for an overall ludicrous product.


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## venturi (Apr 30, 2022)

Actually, the temps on both cards in the same rig under max load have not gotten higher than 71C, ever. So I am not sure where the testers got up to 80C.
Most games, maxed graphics, max settings, 4k, 10bit color, don't get the cards warmer than 69C. but usually hover around 63C.  I get to 71C if I hammer them with some DL algorithms for over a few hours.

Bare in mind the temps might be lower if I was only using one card at a time.


at 4K


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## Fluffmeister (Apr 30, 2022)

Nvidia just don't care anymore, they are rolling in cash. And with AMD also milking the market, they can do as they please.

Well played.


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## TechLurker (Apr 30, 2022)

Frankly, I'm more amazed at how well the 6900XT aged, while being half the cost. I do wonder if the refreshed 6950XT might be a closer match while still being cheaper and relatively more efficient.


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## skizzo (Apr 30, 2022)

TechLurker said:


> Frankly, I'm more amazed at how well the 6900XT aged, while being half the cost. I do wonder if the refreshed 6950XT might be a closer match while still being cheaper and relatively more efficient.





as someone who got a RX 6900 XT just the other month, even paying extra $100 to the ebay scalper scheme.....but even with that said.....I feel I made the best purchase for "bang for your buck" compared to equivalent performance from Nvidia. why would I pay twice that for this card? the charts suggest RX 6900 XT is better in several games and at higher res when 3090 Ti pulls ahead, well the difference between getting 124FPS or 129FPS in a game (RE8), or 170FPS vs 180FPS (Doom Eternal)...again, why would someone pay double, another $1000, for such a minor improvement. This would amount to only about 5% or 6% real world improvement that no one could tell without using monitoring/measuring methods, no one can see that with their naked eye

so I learned something here, apparently an extra 8GB of totally unnecessary (for gaming) VRAM costs ~$1000


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## Valantar (Apr 30, 2022)

venturi said:


> Actually, the temps on both cards in the same rig under max load have not gotten higher than 71C, ever. So I am not sure where the testers got up to 80C.
> Most games, maxed graphics, max settings, 4k, 10bit color, don't get the cards warmer than 69C. but usually hover around 63C.  I get to 71C if I hammer them with some DL algorithms for over a few hours.
> 
> Bare in mind the temps might be lower if I was only using one card at a time.
> ...


I don't know what benchmark you're running there, but it's clearly not scaling all that well across two GPUs, considering they're both far from 100% utilization. 

As for the temps in the review, did you miss the post where they are noise normalized? This is the only way to do like-for-like comparisons across coolers, so that makes sense. The cooler can obviously do more, it'll just be noisy while doing so. What you're saying just de demonstrates that Nvidia has set a rather aggressive fan curve on this card.


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## Flydommo (Apr 30, 2022)

My hope is the upcoming (upper) mid-range cards such as the RTX 4060/70 will deliver good performance gains over my current GTX 1080 TI FE at a much lower TGP of around 300 Watt so that it will be physically much smaller and quieter than this 3090 TI behemoth of a graphics card. I would prefer a two slot design to fit in my Ghost S1 but maybe only the 4060 will be able to correspond to this form factor. We shall see...


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## W1zzard (Apr 30, 2022)

Valantar said:


> The power consumption is worse
> 
> @W1zzard i
> I have to point out the part of the conclusion where you say
> ...


Go through all your peers and ask yourself "could they buy a $2000 thing if they really wanted it"


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## Frick (Apr 30, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Go through all your peers and ask yourself "could they buy a $2000 thing if they really wanted it"


The key word here is peer. Valantar lives in Sweden and has a good job. His peers are much more well off than say an american working minimim wage, or a swede working minimum wage for that matter and the price for this is an entire months income.

But sure, technically you are probably correct, but for me too that phrasing is slightly problematic probably, but whatevs. vOv


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## W1zzard (Apr 30, 2022)

Frick said:


> but for me too that phrasing is slightly problematic probably


I know, right, for me too, but I just felt that I had to share that thought, because all I hear is "omg $x, so expensive, impossible, crazy, nobody can afford this, the world is going to end"


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## Valantar (Apr 30, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Go through all your peers and ask yourself "could they buy a $2000 thing if they really wanted it"


I already know that the vast majority of them would laugh out loud at that question. My parents' generation, sure, that's not unlikely. But millennials or younger? Not a chance. I make just about the median Norwegian income, in a two-person household with two incomes (which makes me better off economically than most of my peers), without a car and with relatively reasonable housing expenses. I could, maybe, do something like that every... 2-3 years, if I saved carefully? But most of the time life eats up those kinds of savings pretty quickly. I probably could if I gave up on all holiday travel and cut down severely on socializing, concerts, etc., but.... well, that's hardy "being able to afford it". If you have to sacrifice everything else to get something, you can't reasonably afford it.


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## W1zzard (Apr 30, 2022)

Valantar said:


> I probably could if I gave up on all holiday travel and cut down severely on socializing, concerts, etc.


I would say that's the definition of "being able to afford", I do get your point though. Still.. how is Apple raking in hundreds of billions, people apparently can afford $1000+ iPhones and spend another $1000 on shit apps/games/in-app-purchases. So you might buy a used Nokia instead but get RTX 3090 Ti instead? Isn't it just a matter of priority if you choose PC gaming over Instagram, Tiktok or Onlyfans? I look out on the streets (yes, in Germany, rich country, $30kish median), and see everybody with iPhone or big Android phones, and it's not like the situation is different in many places in India


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## Frick (Apr 30, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> I would say that's the definition of "being able to afford", I do get your point though. Still.. how is Apple raking in hundreds of billions, people apparently can afford $1000+ iPhones and spend another $1000 on shit apps/games/in-app-purchases. So you might buy a used Nokia instead but get RTX 3090 Ti instead? Isn't it just a matter of priority if you choose PC gaming over Instagram, Tiktok or Onlyfans? I look out on the streets (yes, in Germany, rich country, $30kish median), and see everybody with iPhone or big Android phones, and it's not like the situation is different in many places in India



People get phones with plans though. I do too, even if I could buy the phone. €30/month for 36 months is ok, €1080 in one go is a lot (my phone, Sony 5iii was actually cheaper with the plan).


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## Valantar (Apr 30, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> I know, right, for me too, but I just felt that I had to share that thought, because all I hear is "omg $x, so expensive, impossible, crazy, nobody can afford this, the world is going to end"


There are absolutely a lot of people who can afford that in some way. But given that, for example, the US is a country lf ~320 million people where some proportion has a household income of >$150 000, that's a given, especially with the increasing social acceptance and popularity of gaming. That doesn't make this even remotely affordable for "most" middle class workers, let alone most people. It's still a ludicrously expensive luxury product, and trying to "well, actually" that just makes you come off as severely out of touch with reality. 



W1zzard said:


> I would say that's the definition of "being able to afford".


Then we have very different understandings of that term. You did say it was "possible", and that's a very, very broad term, but if your meaning is "it would be possible if they made major sacrifices for it", then you're sabotaging your own argument, as that just illustrates that even for relatively well off people, this is mostly entirely out of reach. (Especially considering that it has a useful lifespan of... 5 years? I kept my Fury X for 6, and that was a stretch.)


W1zzard said:


> How is Apple raking in hundreds of billions, people apparently can afford $1000+ iPhones and spend another $1000 on shit apps/games/in-app-purchases. So you might buy a used Nokia instead but get RTX 3090 Ti instead? Isn't it just a matter of priority if you choose PC gaming over Instagram, Tiktok or Onlyfans? I look out on the streets (yes, in Germany, rich country, $30kish median), and see everybody with iPhone or big Android phones, and it's not like the situation is different in many places in India


Some severe differences here:
-the day-to-day importance of smartphones in people's lives vastly outstrips "hobby"
-the number of people spending $1000 on mobile purchases in a year is tiny. That is whale territory, and those represent a tiny proportion of players/users.
-smartphones, especially iphones, are relatively repairable and have an extremely active second-hand market, making for cheaper access to used premium devices
-phones are also regularly sold with significant rebates on what essentially amounts to zero-interest payment plans
-a lot of people get into serious debt due to society's push to always have the new, cool tech (and clothes, and other accessories)
-there is essentially no possible world where a GPU in your gaming PC will carry the same broad-reaching social capital as carrying a premium smartphone, making the threshold for entry much, much higher towards making severe sacrifices to get ahold of one.
-on the reverse of that, not everyone has the luxury of making these types of choices freely, especially in our tech-obsessed world. Buying a cheap phone might not see you ostracized, but what if all your friends have iphones and have an imessage group chat? Either you get an iPhone or you're left out.

The point being: everything is a question of priorities and balancing various factors, and the number of people who can either make these choices or have sufficient money to not need to make hard prioritizations to afford a $2000 GPU is overall very low. Arguing that "well actually, this is still within reach" is a shifting of the goal posts that just makes you sound incredibly out of touch with the increasing precarity and economic insecurity experienced by most people today.


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## Richards (Apr 30, 2022)

venturi said:


> Actually, the temps on both cards in the same rig under max load have not gotten higher than 71C, ever. So I am not sure where the testers got up to 80C.
> Most games, maxed graphics, max settings, 4k, 10bit color, don't get the cards warmer than 69C. but usually hover around 63C.  I get to 71C if I hammer them with some DL algorithms for over a few hours.
> 
> Bare in mind the temps might be lower if I was only using one card at a time.
> ...


The card is very efficient in non gaming  tasks


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## W1zzard (Apr 30, 2022)

venturi said:


> Actually, the temps on both cards in the same rig under max load have not gotten higher than 71C, ever. So I am not sure where the testers got up to 80C.
> Most games, maxed graphics, max settings, 4k, 10bit color, don't get the cards warmer than 69C. but usually hover around 63C.  I get to 71C if I hammer them with some DL algorithms for over a few hours.
> 
> Bare in mind the temps might be lower if I was only using one card at a time.
> ...


"Power: 263 W", this test you're running is CPU limited, also GPU load at 75%


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## enemys (Apr 30, 2022)

Valantar said:


> For anyone else, not even close. The median wage in the US is less than $20 000/year.


What? Median yearly worker salary in US in 2020 was $41,535, median full-time worker salary was $56,287, while median household salary was $67,521. The card's stupidly overpriced anyway, but your numbers are wayyy off.
Source: https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html + https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2021/demo/p60-273/figure4.pdf


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## SunMaster (Apr 30, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> I would say that's the definition of "being able to afford", I do get your point though. Still.. how is Apple raking in hundreds of billions, people apparently can afford $1000+ iPhones and spend another $1000 on shit apps/games/in-app-purchases. So you might buy a used Nokia instead but get RTX 3090 Ti instead? Isn't it just a matter of priority if you choose PC gaming over Instagram, Tiktok or Onlyfans? I look out on the streets (yes, in Germany, rich country, $30kish median), and see everybody with iPhone or big Android phones, and it's not like the situation is different in many places in India



I think the apple comparison is invalid. First - we're talking about a component of a computer, not a functional unit. Second, the customers of apples computer gear are absolutely not your average Joe born in 2000 and typically not the gaming kind. The fact that a certain % of a population can spend $2000 on a computer component doesn't mean they're in the target group.

The paradigm shift Nvidia (and - to a lesser extent AMD) seems to be trying to make is that the graphics card should cost at least 2/3 of your system cost. I'm not buying into that, I think it's all bullshit, and the more bang for the buck paradigm that has been driving the computing industry forward since its birth suddenly seems to end.

I really do believe Nvidia is severely misinterpreting the willingness of the gamers/gaming community/PC users to buy ludicrously expensive graphics cards. They may even have to deal with said customers impression of Nvidia as a company.


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## QUANTUMPHYSICS (Apr 30, 2022)

Anyone who buys this has the money to afford it. 
Regardless what you "think" the "value" is, they know how deep their own pockets are.
The 3090Ti is the most powerful video game gpu ever made. Full stop.



enemys said:


> What? Median yearly worker salary in US in 2020 was $41,535, median full-time worker salary was $56,287, while median household salary was $67,521. The card's stupidly overpriced anyway, but your numbers are wayyy off.
> Source: https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html + https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2021/demo/p60-273/figure4.pdf




Maybe people who are WORKING CLASS, shouldn't be busy playing video games?

Maybe these cards are reserved for OWNERS like myself?


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## trog100 (Apr 30, 2022)

there really is no need for gamers to buy these flagship cards.. i could afford one but am quite happy with my 3070 at 1440.. 

moaning about the price of such things is a waste of space..

trog


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## Chrispy_ (Apr 30, 2022)

RedelZaVedno said:


> Joking aside, dGPU market is totally FU atm  I'm afraid AMD & Ngreedia are flirting more and more with "audiophile" territory. I can imagine dGPUs targeting only the rich & "kidney sellers", everyone else being sentenced to APUs or consoles in just a few years time


It's fine, you can get 120fps at 4K on a $2000 3090Ti, or you can get the 120fps at 1080p on a $400 3060.

The gameplay isn't different at 4K
The plot isn't different at 4K
The people you play with aren't different at 4K
The texture detail and polygon count of the art assets aren't different at 4K

With FFX and DLSS you can get the resolution for slower-paced sightseeing games if you want, there's really no need to buy a graphics card that's designed, from the outset, to be a massive cash-grab to milk those so rich that they don't care about the value of a product. I wouldn't turn down a free 3090Ti but unless I was forced to use it personally, I'd immediately sell it to buy a much cheaper card and spend the rest of that money more wisely.


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## Valantar (Apr 30, 2022)

enemys said:


> What? Median yearly worker salary in US in 2020 was $41,535, median full-time worker salary was $56,287, while median household salary was $67,521. The card's stupidly overpriced anyway, but your numbers are wayyy off.
> Source: https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html + https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2021/demo/p60-273/figure4.pdf


Yeah, you're right, I did the classic idiot error of basing myself off an early search result rather than doing my due diligence properly - the numbers even struck me as weirdly low when I found them, but I didn't really take that gut feeling seriously for some dumb reason - instead I thought that my assumptions before this were off due to currency conversions and so on. Heck, the list i found out the Norwegian median income at something like $21000, which when I actually convert it to NOK is also about half of the actual number. One guess is that that list was adjusted for taxes and other major expenses (health insurance in the US etc.), but that's just speculation. I'd have to dig up that search result from my history to find what its deal was.

Still, spending 5% of your annual income on a single, relatively short lived hobby item is only marginally more feasible than 10%, so the core or my argument is unchanged. It's entirely out of reach for the vast majority of people. 



QUANTUMPHYSICS said:


> Anyone who buys this has the money to afford it.
> Regardless what you "think" the "value" is, they know how deep their own pockets are.
> The 3090Ti is the most powerful video game gpu ever made. Full stop.


Is anyone disputing this? None of that makes it any less ludicrous.


QUANTUMPHYSICS said:


> Maybe people who are WORKING CLASS, shouldn't be busy playing video games?
> 
> Maybe these cards are reserved for OWNERS like myself?


I guess I have to preface this with the realization that it might be sarcastic? Doesn't seem that way tough, and if not: Wow, it's rare to see this kind of classist, elitist rhetoric out this bluntly. Thanks for being honest, I guess? Still, maybe try divesting yourself of the idea that you sonehow have the right to rule over what working class people are busy doing? They're not your property or your subjects, and have the same right to autonomy and freedom as you do. I'd strongly recommend asking yourself some hard questions around your belief system if you actually think you have the right to determine what other people spend their time doing. The subtext of moral superiority in this type of rhetoric ("they should be spending their time working, not slacking off!) is such a blatantly self-serving rhetorical trick (who gains the most off of workers working more? Their bosses!) that it  just makes you look bad. What should working class people be spending their time doing? Whatever makes them happy and lets them live a good life. If that is playing video games, who are you to deny them that? This is just absurd.


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## BarbaricSoul (Apr 30, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Go through all your peers and ask yourself "could they buy a $2000 thing if they really wanted it"


I'm part of that working class your talking about, and I do not know anyone that would spend $2k on a single computer component, online or in life.


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## Chrispy_ (Apr 30, 2022)

BarbaricSoul said:


> I'm part of that working class your talking about, and I do not know anyone that would spend $2k on a single computer component, online or in life.


I'm statistically multiple times more affluent than the average working class (I'm still working class) and I still refuse to splurge money on flagship things, even though I love tech and enjoy having the premium experience. You see, there's _premium_, and then there's just corporations scamming the ignorant rich, or those who have more funding than self-control.

Even if you halved the price of the 3090Ti it wouldn't be a good value product, it would merely match a used 2080Ti (which has been a horrible value proposition and middle-finger to consumers since launch) or 5700XT (which currently comes with an almost 50% increase over their 2019 MSRP because they're still fantastically-profitable ETH mining cards)






The cards you should actually buy if you don't want to be ripped off are way down at the bottom of the chart, and cards like the 6700XT are there, which are perfectly capable of playing games at 4K60 on near-maximum settings. All you have to do to get the 3090Ti experience without being ripped-off is swallow your ego and drop the settings down from the ultra preset to high on a card that costs 1/3rd as much. Probably. I don't know, I don't play every single game but I feel that _high_ usually runs at least 50% better than _ultra _in most AAA titles and the 3090Ti is about 50% faster than a 6700XT on average.


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## sillyconjunkie (Apr 30, 2022)

It's expensive, hot, has one of the ugliest pcb designs in history and utilizes way too much heat tape but you can't deny the performance.  

A solid design stretched to the limit.


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## SOAREVERSOR (Apr 30, 2022)

Fermi 2.0 it seems... again.

As for beautiful cards.... ehhh, I mean who really cares?   As long as it's not coated with anime girl pictures is there an issue?  Why do we all have windowed cases now?  I remember when full card heatsinks started to show up, I remember the 5800fx and people being shocked, shocked, shocked! at the raw brass it took to produce a dual slot card or the 6800ultra and "WTF dual molex connectors".   I'd dare say both of those cards looked better for what they were because they were obviously designed to be working parts and not "works of art".

I like the lack of LED RGB nonsense on this but still it's just odd.   Want to impress me?  Use clear plastic over the heatsink part of it so I can see when it's clogged and don't have to take the stupid thing apart.


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## Space Lynx (Apr 30, 2022)

Durvelle27 said:


> Wow the value of this is so bad



I have a hunch this will be deadweight within 6 months, the rtc 4080 will stomp it as it has to keep with rx 7000 series gpu's...  thank God for competition, otherwise Nvidia would just milk the living fuck out of it and we would never get progress in gaming. 



Richards said:


> The card is very efficient in non gaming  tasks




even so... deadweight when 4080 comes out, which won't be long off honestly. AMD is moving at incredible speed with their product line. I expect a rx 7000 card in my hand in November... IF i get lucky, but I was lucky last time... so maybe I will get lucky again


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## Valantar (Apr 30, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> I have a hunch this will be deadweight within 6 months, the rtc 4080 will stomp it as it has to keep with rx 7000 series gpu's...  thank God for competition, otherwise Nvidia would just milk the living fuck out of it and we would never get progress in gaming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, if rumors about the Radeon 7000 series are even remotely accurate, those cards are going to be some real beasts. And of course the rumored 600W-900W 4000-series SKUs only really make sense as a response to that.


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## mechtech (May 1, 2022)

Just Some Noise said:


> This is why we need Intel Arc to be competetive.
> NVidia clearly only wants a halo product with the 3090 Ti.
> And lets be honest, i do not think that AMD will be any better with the refreshed RX6XXX Series.
> 
> So lets hope Intel will do something good for the market with their graphics cards.


No offence but lol

now that they have been making those mark ups on gpus for so long do you really think we will see precovid pricing ever return to gpus??   I’m hopeful but not expecting anything to change much.  At least AMD lists an MSRP.   Intel will price their gpus as much as possible especially after their last earnings statement.

but fingers crossed though.  I do miss a decent midrange card for $250


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## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> I'm statistically multiple times more affluent than the average working class (I'm still working class) and I still refuse to splurge money on flagship things, even though I love tech and enjoy having the premium experience. You see, there's _premium_, and then there's just corporations scamming the ignorant rich, or those who have more funding than self-control.
> 
> Even if you halved the price of the 3090Ti it wouldn't be a good value product, it would merely match a used 2080Ti (which has been a horrible value proposition and middle-finger to consumers since launch) or 5700XT (which currently comes with an almost 50% increase over their 2019 MSRP because they're still fantastically-profitable ETH mining cards)
> 
> The cards you should actually buy if you don't want to be ripped off are way down at the bottom of the chart, and cards like the 6700XT are there, which are perfectly capable of playing games at 4K60 on near-maximum settings. All you have to do to get the 3090Ti experience without being ripped-off is swallow your ego and drop the settings down from the ultra preset to high on a card that costs 1/3rd as much. Probably. I don't know, I don't play every single game but I feel that _high_ usually runs at least 50% better than _ultra _in most AAA titles and the 3090Ti is about 50% faster than a 6700XT on average.



6700XT is a terrible deal, more expensive than 3060Ti which is much better for 4K gaming with DLSS at Balanced or Performance mode.

Anyways I sure was glad having a 3090 for the last 1.5 years of lock down , no work and all game...


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## EatingDirt (May 1, 2022)

This card is a colossal waste of money for... anyone. Costs $800 more than a 3080 Ti for a meagre 10% more performance. It's a joke.

24GB of ram is simply a waste of RAM on a gaming card, and Nvidia's marketing justifying it is quite frankly ridiculous (If you're a serious professional you'll be using a professional card, aka Quadro 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, all at a similar price range and RAM capacity of this card.) Just like the 3090 before it, this card almost exclusively for rich gamers, or ones that have too much ego to get anything but 'the best'.


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## DrCR (May 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> There are absolutely plenty of not-rich people out there with expensive hobbies (cars, motorcycles, mountain bikes, photography, etc.), but that's still a relatively small group of relatively privileged people. "Most" is nowhere near accurate, and ultimately just serves to justify what is a ludicrous price for an overall ludicrous product.


And even that’s not a true comparison, as the $2000 bicycle or whatever purchase may last a lifetime or at least hold much of its value for years until upgraded.

Consumer video cards approach e-waste status in a rather short timeframe.


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## Casinowilhelm (May 1, 2022)

"If you are a professional needing that much memory, do let us know. I'm curious what you are working on." 

I'm working on live show visual content for bands like g'n'r and ed sheeran. We have to render at very high res, be able to react quickly to changes and we have deadlines that cannot move, so I use real time renderers like unreal engine and notch because they are way faster than octane or redshift. For sims etc you export from 3d software as alembic files, which are basically geometry caches, into notch. But they all have to fit in vram, and they get very big. So 24gb is an OK size but I often hit that limit. (I'd prefer more but I am not convinced by quadros in any way other than the extra vram). 

Plus I can play games on the 3090 at weekends  

3090ti isn't looking like it's a worthwhile upgrade for me, maybe if it had more vram I'd consider it.


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## Valantar (May 1, 2022)

nguyen said:


> 6700XT is a terrible deal, more expensive than 3060Ti which is much better for 4K gaming with DLSS at Balanced or Performance mode.
> 
> Anyways I sure was glad having a 3090 for the last 1.5 years of lock down , no work and all game...


At least in Techspot/Hardware Unboxed's testing, and with current real-world pricing, the 6700 XT outmatches the 3060 Ti in cost-per-frame everywhere except in Europe.


----------



## Space Lynx (May 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> At least in Techspot/Hardware Unboxed's testing, and with current real-world pricing, the 6700 XT outmatches the 3060 Ti in cost-per-frame everywhere except in Europe.



especially if you get it at msrp for $479 direct from amd.com... which is not impossible, been in stock a lot lately.


----------



## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> At least in Techspot/Hardware Unboxed's testing, and with current real-world pricing, the 6700 XT outmatches the 3060 Ti in cost-per-frame everywhere except in Europe.



3060 Ti is cheaper here...by 30-50usd

HUB used 6 games for the cost per frame analysis as opposed to their 50 games where 3060Ti and 6700XT are basically tied. So yeah if you are _cherry picking_ games then 6700XT is better value

I really wonder how legitimate about HUB quoted pricing here, quick search on Mindfactory show there are good 3080 10GB models at 950-970eur, and HUB quote them as 1140eur LOL.

Quick look at US pricing and on Newegg there are 3080 10GB models at ~900usd, same as 6800XT, kinda crazy to pick 6800XT over 3080 10GB when the 3080 is 7% faster at 4K (also 6900XT is much much crazier)


----------



## Chomiq (May 1, 2022)

venturi said:


> Actually, the temps on both cards in the same rig under max load have not gotten higher than 71C, ever. So I am not sure where the testers got up to 80C.
> Most games, maxed graphics, max settings, 4k, 10bit color, don't get the cards warmer than 69C. but usually hover around 63C.  I get to 71C if I hammer them with some DL algorithms for over a few hours.
> 
> Bare in mind the temps might be lower if I was only using one card at a time.
> ...


346W on my 3080 Ti when gaming at 1080p says: X doubt


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 1, 2022)

nguyen said:


> 6700XT is a terrible deal, more expensive than 3060Ti which is much better for 4K gaming with DLSS at Balanced or Performance mode.
> 
> Anyways I sure was glad having a 3090 for the last 1.5 years of lock down , no work and all game...


"6700XT is a terrible deal" he says, suggesting people go and buy a worse deal.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have a 3060Ti, FFX is pretty close to DLSS in the games I've tried it in. I'd use neither unless I was hurting for FPS because neither of them are as quite as good as native.

I picked the 6700XT as _one example of many_, specifically I said "The cards you should actually buy if you don't want to be ripped off are way down at the bottom of the chart, cards like the 6700XT"

Don't try to make it like I'm recommending the 6700XT over everything else; I'm recommending ANY cards at the bottom quarter of that chart I've now linked for the third time. It's impressive how you manage to completely miss the point of "don't spend flagship money, but an upper mid-range card instead" and somehow turn it into a petty discussion of one mid-range card vs another, bickering over minor variations in regional pricing... :\


----------



## Valantar (May 1, 2022)

nguyen said:


> 3060 Ti is cheaper here...by 30-50usd
> 
> HUB used 6 games for the cost per frame analysis as opposed to their 50 games where 3060Ti and 6700XT are basically tied. So yeah if you are _cherry picking_ games then 6700XT is better value
> 
> ...


I can agree that their results are slightly skewed in the 6700 XT's favor, as their larger comparison shows a 3% advantage for it at 1080p compared to a 6% advantage in the value comparison at that resolution, and a 5.5% advantage at 1440p vs. being tied in the 50-game comparison. This still likely wouldn't shift the overall value judgement much, seeing how pricing varies between regions, but it might given how close pricing can be. You might also want to read the introduction to the value comparison article - I think some of your questions are answered there. Among other things, the 50-game roundups are run at high/ultra quality, while testing in the value roundup is done at medium so as to not inherently disadvantage lower-end GPUs (which also makes 2160p results more interesting/relevant for mid-range and upper mid-range GPUs).


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> I can agree that their results are slightly skewed in the 6700 XT's favor, as their larger comparison shows a 3% advantage for it at 1080p compared to a 6% advantage in the value comparison at that resolution, and a 5.5% advantage at 1440p vs. being tied in the 50-game comparison. This still likely wouldn't shift the overall value judgement much, seeing how pricing varies between regions. You might also want to read the introduction to the value comparison article - I think some of your questions are answered there. Among other things, the 50-game roundups are run at high/ultra quality, while testing in the value roundup is done at medium so as to not inherently disadvantage lower-end GPUs (which also makes 2160p results more interesting/relevant for mid-range and upper mid-range GPUs).


IMO they're pretty comparable if we're even having to justify the comparison this strictly. 
Buy the one that's the best deal - I'm 100% sure you'll be able to find places where the 6700XT is cheaper, and other places where the 3060Ti is cheaper. 
Unless you want something specific, like, say Ampere's NVENC or 12GB VRAM for doing work as well as gaming.


----------



## PapaTaipei (May 1, 2022)

I'd like to point out that the prices of the GPU market has nothing to do with crypto, as crypto mining is not efficient with GPU. It has everything to do with inflation and the fable of "Moore's law". They could have released 10 years ago sub nanometric semiconductors but you can't milk a market like that.


----------



## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> "6700XT is a terrible deal" he says, suggesting people go and buy a worse deal.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> I have a 3060Ti, FFX is pretty close to DLSS in the games I've tried it in. I'd use neither unless I was hurting for FPS because neither of them are as quite as good as native.
> 
> ...





Chrispy_ said:


> The cards you should actually buy if you don't want to be ripped off are way down at the bottom of the chart, and cards like the 6700XT are there, which are perfectly capable of playing games at 4K60 on near-maximum settings. All you have to do to get the 3090Ti experience without being ripped-off is swallow your ego and drop the settings down from the ultra preset to high on a card that costs 1/3rd as much. Probably. I don't know, I don't play every single game but I feel that _high_ usually runs at least 50% better than _ultra _in most AAA titles and the 3090Ti is about 50% faster than a 6700XT on average.



LOL yeah so you would use lower settings in order to gain more FPS, but refusing to use DLSS nor FSR to gain FPS which are very effective at 4K, that's just pure hypocrisy. Litterally any GPU can use lower settings to gain FPS too, 3090 Ti included. BTW I'm playing Elden Ring and 4K Ultra look like crap and High look noticeably worse for only 10% more FPS, really wish it has DLSS.

IDK why you would compare a 6700XT to 3090Ti instead of a 3060Ti, since 3060Ti and 3090Ti share all features. So yeah maybe I mistook you for someone who would only buy AMD . Anyways I don't want to play games on a RX570 even if you pay me, price to performance at the bottom tier don't interest me.


----------



## wolf (May 1, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> Dear Nvidia,
> 
> Please ignore all the haters. All they do is complain.
> 
> ...


You make it sound like unaffordable life saving medicine, it's a ridiculous luxury halo product meant for those with deep pockets and less sense / no cares or compromises.

I wont pretend like the market is affordable, but the 3090ti launched late in the gen, tops the outright performance charts at 4k, and represents the least value. This doesn't mean however, there aren't many other options in the meat of each camps lineups that are sane and offer reasonable value.

And don't think for a second if the camps were reversed, we wouldn't have a broadly equal product. This is the new world we live in, ultra boutique high end products and variations of products for those with deep pockets / will spend big for their niche and desires. It can and does suck, but I doubt its changing anytime soon.


----------



## Valantar (May 1, 2022)

wolf said:


> You make it sound like unaffordable life saving medicine, it's a ridiculous luxury halo product meant for those with deep pockets and less sense / no cares or compromises.
> 
> I wont pretend like the market is affordable, but the 3090ti launched late in the gen, tops the outright performance charts at 4k, and represents the least value. This doesn't mean however, there aren't many other options in the meat of each camps lineups that are sane and offer reasonable value.
> 
> And don't think for a second if the camps were reversed, we wouldn't have a broadly equal product. This is the new world we live in, ultra boutique high end products and variations of products for those with deep pockets / will spend big for their niche and desires. It can and does suck, but I doubt its changing anytime soon.


You're not entirely wrong, but the problem with this as a counterargument to the post you quoted is that it fails to address the ever-shifting prices of GPUs, the constant creep towards unaffordability and "premium"ness that we've seen for a decade now. "Well, what's the harm in also providing products to people with more money than sense?" you (and many others) would probably ask. The problem with that is that over time, this shifts the window of what is considered sensible pricing and overall value. And this is precisely what the corporations want - that over time, price increases outstrip inflation sufficiently to increase their margins, but sufficiently slowly that people fail to really notice that they're suddenly paying twice as much for the same product category as ten years ago. (Of course they also wholeheartedly embrace other factors pushing in the same direction, such as crypto.) The effects on consumer expectations and ideas of reasonable pricing are _very_ different in a market where flagship, ultra-premium products are $700 than one where those products are $2000. And, to be clear, all notable effects from a change like this are negative towards mainstream users - less affordability/less value for cheaper products; an increased price floor for entry level products; increased fetishization of premium products (which has always been a massive issue in the PC hardware scene, but is only getting worse), and increased social pressure to over-spend in order to keep up.


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 1, 2022)

nguyen said:


> LOL yeah so you would use lower settings in order to gain more FPS, but refusing to use DLSS nor FSR to gain FPS which are very effective at 4K, that's just pure hypocrisy. Litterally any GPU can use lower settings to gain FPS too, 3090 Ti included. BTW I'm playing Elden Ring and 4K Ultra look like crap and High look noticeably worse for only 10% more FPS, really wish it has DLSS.


That really isn't what I said at all. "I'd use neither unless I was hurting for FPS" obviously means I'd enable it if I needed it to boost framerates, but prefer to run without it for a crisper, shimmer-free/artifact-free experience.

If you want to twist my words and make an argument where there is none, we're done here.


----------



## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> You're not entirely wrong, but the problem with this as a counterargument to the post you quoted is that it fails to address the ever-shifting prices of GPUs, the constant creep towards unaffordability and "premium"ness that we've seen for a decade now. "Well, what's the harm in also providing products to people with more money than sense?" you (and many others) would probably ask. The problem with that is that over time, this shifts the window of what is considered sensible pricing and overall value. And this is precisely what the corporations want - that over time, price increases outstrip inflation sufficiently to increase their margins, but sufficiently slowly that people fail to really notice that they're suddenly paying twice as much for the same product category as ten years ago. (Of course they also wholeheartedly embrace other factors pushing in the same direction, such as crypto.) The effects on consumer expectations and ideas of reasonable pricing are _very_ different in a market where flagship, ultra-premium products are $700 than one where those products are $2000. And, to be clear, all notable effects from a change like this are negative towards mainstream users - less affordability/less value for cheaper products; an increased price floor for entry level products; increased fetishization of premium products (which has always been a massive issue in the PC hardware scene, but is only getting worse), and increased social pressure to over-spend in order to keep up.



It's a free market, don't like it, don't buy it, Nvidia and AMD will get the memo when no once is buying their overpriced crap, heck even the 6500XT is considered overpriced despite how cheap it is.

If the free market decide that premium products are here to last, so be it. If gaming ever became too expensive for you, just stop gaming. Lol the PC gaming space was declared dead decade ago when cheap Consoles came out but here it is, still going strong.


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 1, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> I sold my car last time to get a 2080 Ti


Username checks out


----------



## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> That really isn't what I said at all. "I'd use neither unless I was hurting for FPS" obviously means I'd enable it if I needed it to boost framerates, but prefer to run without it for a crisper, shimmer-free/artifact-free experience.
> 
> If you want to twist my words and make an argument where there is none, we're done here.



LMAO, so you yourself is an "Native is best" elitist, yet saying others should just lower the settings to enjoy higher FPS, pure hypocrisy if you ask me.

BTW I enable DLSS when it's available, maybe I'm some DLSS peasant to you


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 1, 2022)

PapaTaipei said:


> I'd like to point out that the prices of the GPU market has nothing to do with crypto, as crypto mining is not efficient with GPU. It has everything to do with inflation and the fable of "Moore's law". They could have released 10 years ago sub nanometric semiconductors but you can't milk a market like that.


Have you tried doing this yet?









nguyen said:


> LMAO, so you yourself is an "Native is best" elitist, yet saying others should just lower the settings to enjoy higher FPS, pure hypocrisy if you ask me.
> 
> BTW I enable DLSS when it's available, maybe I'm some DLSS peasant to you


Native is best, I don't think that's ever been up for debate,  but once again, you're inferring stuff incorrectly that I never wrote, that seems to be a running theme with you.

I choose to lower the resolution instead of enabling DLSS in many instances. The TV I have is freesync up to 120Hz and my personal choice is to go for higher framerates at 1080p than to try an get playable framerates at 4K using upscalers. If I only had a 60Hz TV I'd probably choose DLSS more often.

If you refer back to this post, I think you'll find it changes nothing I care about.



You'd get into a lot fewer pointless and silly arguments off-topic if you stopped name-calling like a five year old and making baseless generalisations / incorrect assumptions about people you have no information on.


----------



## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Have you tried doing this yet?
> 
> 
> View attachment 245763
> ...



Nah the more info you provided the more I'm sure that you are just a hypocrit, sure play 720p Low with an RX570 on a 4K screen, doing that sure doesn't degrade the gaming experience for you  , yet save you some money too, why do you even need a 3060Ti?


----------



## chrcoluk (May 1, 2022)

I noticed TPU's comment on the FE design.

My opinion the FE ampere gpu's are the most nice looking and most sturdy GPU's I have ever seen, no sag due to the structural strength of the card, you can hold it with a iron tight grip without worrying about the shroud falling to pieces.

On the 3090 TI itself however, horrible product.  The only nice thing is the VRAM capacity but at a way too big price premium.


----------



## Valantar (May 1, 2022)

nguyen said:


> It's a free market, don't like it, don't buy it, Nvidia and AMD will get the memo when no once is buying their overpriced crap, heck even the 6500XT is considered overpriced despite how cheap it is.
> 
> If the free market decide that premium products are here to last, so be it. If gaming ever became too expensive for you, just stop gaming. Lol the PC gaming space was declared dead decade ago when cheap Consoles came out but here it is, still going strong.


"It's a free market" - the go-to adage for people running out of arguments when talking about market dynamics and actors within markets. And as always, both utterly devoid of value in the debate and utterly transparent as a rhetorical device attempting to shut down criticism of dysfunctional markets.

Also, "free" as in unregulated markets are wide open for manipulation and abuse. There is nothing "free" about them. They're a playground for the rich and unscrupulous trying to enrich themselves, unless someone has oversight and authority to ensure fair dealings.

And, of course, the age-old "if you can't afford it, just stop" - a double whammy of poor shaming, both implicitly arguing that it's entirely fine for rich people to determine the limits of poorer peoples freedom, and denying any external factors having an effect on these things. All the while trying desperately to shift the focus onto the person bringing up a problem, rather than discussing the problem itself. Just wonderful, really.


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 1, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> I noticed TPU's comment on the FE design.
> 
> My opinion the FE ampere gpu's are the most nice looking and most sturdy GPU's I have ever seen, no sag due to the structural strength of the card, you can hold it with a iron tight grip without worrying about the shroud falling to pieces.
> 
> On the 3090 TI itself however, horrible product.  The only nice thing is the VRAM capacity but at a way too big price premium.


Nividia's FE coolers have really been on-point since about the 900-series IMO.

I know the 900 and 10xx series were blower cards, but they were damn fine blower cards for the blower era of coolers. Well made, good-looking, high-quality materials, quieter fans than other blowers etc.


----------



## nguyen (May 1, 2022)

Valantar said:


> "It's a free market" - the go-to adage for people running out of arguments when talking about market dynamics and actors within markets. And as always, both utterly devoid of value in the debate and utterly transparent as a rhetorical device attempting to shut down criticism of dysfunctional markets.
> 
> Also, "free" as in unregulated markets are wide open for manipulation and abuse. There is nothing "free" about them. They're a playground for the rich and unscrupulous trying to enrich themselves, unless someone has oversight and authority to ensure fair dealings.
> 
> And, of course, the age-old "if you can't afford it, just stop" - a double whammy of poor shaming, both implicitly arguing that it's entirely fine for rich people to determine the limits of poorer peoples freedom, and denying any external factors having an effect on these things. All the while trying desperately to shift the focus onto the person bringing up a problem, rather than discussing the problem itself. Just wonderful, really.



haha yeah maybe you should ask your government to forbid sale of any GPU more expensive than an 6900XTXH LOL


----------



## Valantar (May 1, 2022)

nguyen said:


> haha yeah maybe you should ask your government to forbid sale of any GPU more expensive than an 6900XTXH LOL


... Or maybe there are more options for how markets can work in between "corporate hellscape" and "totalitarian government tells you what you are allowed to buy"? Yeah, no, you must be right, it sounds completely impossible to come up with anything in between those two.

I mean, it's fun arguing with you. Laughing responses to every post, straw man arguments, shifting goal posts, and the general tone of your "arguments" boiling down to "stop complaining". Not arguing in bad faith, oh no, not at all.


----------



## Dr. Dro (May 1, 2022)

Surprised that despite the significantly higher power limit out of the box, it only manages 5-8% over a 3090 FE. It seems in line with what I get out of my 3090 TUF OC, actually, maybe a wee bit faster. Not worth it for $2000... this card gives me major GeForce 8800 Ultra vibes. Which totally was worth it over the 8800 GTX, right?  

This card exists purely so Jensen can claim "first" on 12VHPWR connector for "PCI Express 5.0 compliant power delivery", imho. Not even sure how that's a positive 



PapaTaipei said:


> I'd like to point out that the prices of the GPU market has nothing to do with crypto, as crypto mining is not efficient with GPU. It has everything to do with inflation and the fable of "Moore's law". They could have released 10 years ago sub nanometric semiconductors but you can't milk a market like that.



Could have fooled me... I can't imagine how single individuals buying 100+ GPUs would have strained the market supply... or companies buying five hundred thousand cards, like it's happened before. Then you add a pandemic, people at home... yeah, it was nasty. But the cryptocurrency Ponzi scheme did, does and looks like it will have an active impact in GPU pricing and supplies going forward for as long as this scam is viable and there are suckers to buy into it.


----------



## wolf (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> fails to address the ever-shifting prices of GPUs, the constant creep towards unaffordability and "premium"ness that we've seen for a decade now.


Price creep, as you've somewhat covered is influenced and contributed to by many many things, the 3090Ti specifically, being a minor one if that. I'm not really interested too much in a discussion of all of the contributing factors, if we could even collectively name and quantify them.

I hate the price creep too, don't get me wrong, but to the people looking at the 3090Ti as some sort of price creep lighting rod and like Nvidia has some figurative gun to their head to buy it, and that's a pretty average take if not made in jest.


Chrispy_ said:


> Native is best, I don't think that's ever been up for debate


It's been demonstrated time and time again that Native image quality can be exceeded. 

I didn't think people were still debating that it can't be.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> The power consumption is worse
> 
> @W1zzard i
> I have to point out the part of the conclusion where you say
> ...


Ummmm.....

"The real median personal income in the US in 2019 was $35,977/year."
"The median household income in the US in 2019 was $68,703"






						What Is the Average American Income in 2021? | PolicyAdvice
					

What is the average American income? What is considered a good income in the USA? Check out these interesting facts and stats!




					policyadvice.net
				




Where did you find that less then $20,000 number from?


----------



## Mussels (May 2, 2022)

Right, so how long before i can get my hands on a 3090-> Ti crossflash BIOS 

Funnily enough, the VRAM on my 3090 does in fact clock higher than the 3090Ti (This is 24/7 stable, although i dont run it normally to save power)




Next all i gotta do is worry about that 256 shader difference - that 0.024% performance difference is going to be devastating


----------



## nguyen (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... Or maybe there are more options for how markets can work in between "corporate hellscape" and "totalitarian government tells you what you are allowed to buy"? Yeah, no, you must be right, it sounds completely impossible to come up with anything in between those two.
> 
> I mean, it's fun arguing with you. Laughing responses to every post, straw man arguments, shifting goal posts, and the general tone of your "arguments" boiling down to "stop complaining". Not arguing in bad faith, oh no, not at all.



Oh yeah I wonder why Nvidia stop making 2500usd GPUs like the Titan V and Titan RTX, maybe it's the free market that decided they are not worth making anymore .

Didn't look like you came up with a reasonable solution between "corporate hellscape" and "totalitarian government" to me, instead you are just complaining about something you cannot change.



wolf said:


> It's been demonstrated time and time again that Native image quality can be exceeded.
> 
> I didn't think people were still debating that it can't be.



We are dealing with someone who think _1080p upscaled_ on a 4K screen is still considered Native here, probably doesn't know what Native means


----------



## wheresmycar (May 2, 2022)

wolf said:


> You make it sound like unaffordable life saving medicine, it's a ridiculous luxury halo product meant for those with deep pockets and less sense / no cares or compromises.
> 
> I wont pretend like the market is affordable, but the 3090ti launched late in the gen, tops the outright performance charts at 4k, and represents the least value. This doesn't mean however, there aren't many other options in the meat of each camps lineups that are sane and offer reasonable value.
> 
> And don't think for a second if the camps were reversed, we wouldn't have a broadly equal product. This is the new world we live in, ultra boutique high end products and variations of products for those with deep pockets / will spend big for their niche and desires. It can and does suck, but I doubt its changing anytime soon.



"life saving medicine" thats just a fancy word for "gaming" lol 

Nah I partly agree. I'm just blowing steam (a 5-6 year build-up of blow-worthy steam) since 1st Gen Nvidia cards. I was enthusiastically compelled to fork out an extortionate £700 for a 1080 TI. Even back then (5 years ago) £700 for a graphics card was murder ....  What can you do, I wasn't going to shift to 1440p 144hz without a card capable of achieving high/ultra quality settings and an avg. 90fps (specific, played games). Similarly with the performance targets intact but newer games demanding more, eventually ended up going for a 2080 TI "used build" for a reasonable charge.

It's not about affordability, fortunately for me i'm financially all-hands-on-deck but the dilemma being I just want the best performance possible (relevantly realistic goals) without being an absolute succumbing consumerist MUG. That should be possible now in 2022 with 2-gens ahead but surprisingly now the mid-segment 3070 TI is going for a whopping £700 and there's a bunch of people suggesting "thats reasonable" - I think not, far from it IMO! That's the problem with XX90's flagship extortionism, the pre-engineered sneaky trickery effects follow through on the lower pecking order of cards and eventually we lose track of what is justifiably reasonable. Forget crypto or the pandemic, these signs were evident prior to the wildly feverish market shake-up.. then again thats smart thinking for the men in suits, excessive corporate progress for the milking profiteering cumulative nature of business. We can't blame them but we can complain amongst ourselves and gather like-minded affirmatives with some level of protesting-awareness for the price to performance conscious. It's definitely helped me over time and so on.


----------



## Casinowilhelm (May 2, 2022)

EatingDirt said:


> This card is a colossal waste of money for... anyone. Costs $800 more than a 3080 Ti for a meagre 10% more performance. It's a joke.
> 
> 24GB of ram is simply a waste of RAM on a gaming card, and Nvidia's marketing justifying it is quite frankly ridiculous (If you're a serious professional you'll be using a professional card, aka Quadro 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, all at a similar price range and RAM capacity of this card.) Just like the 3090 before it, this card almost exclusively for rich gamers, or ones that have too much ego to get anything but 'the best'.


I'm what you'd call a "serious professional" (freelance for over 20 years). The value proposition of quadros is worse even than 3090 etc as their performance is lower at the same price point as the geforce equivalent. Using unreal engine etc for visualisation/3d rendering as we do, or gpu based renderers like redshift,  it makes most sense to get the best gaming cards available rather than quadros, and every single freelancer I know doing the same job as me does this. We ALL run 3090s not quadros. 

Of course if you're doing Cad then quadros have those specific viewport accelerations, same for science etc. Doesn't apply to me. 

I don't think this card makes much sense either though tbf. 3090 is the sweet spot if you can get it for MSRP (I was lucky at the start)


----------



## W1zzard (May 2, 2022)

Casinowilhelm said:


> I'm what you'd call a "serious professional" (freelance for over 20 years)


Very much appreciate that you took the time to register here and share your experience. Have you tried to bring down the VRAM requirements by using lower resolution models/textures? Would your clients ever notice?


----------



## wolf (May 2, 2022)

nguyen said:


> I wonder why Nvidia stop making 2500usd GPUs


Another thing that seems quickly or conveniently forgotten, the cost of previous products that effectively fit this niche (within 10-20% of sane high end products, but with a lot more memory) being similarly priced, sometimes a bit more, sometimes less, like the Titans. Also the power consumption/TDP/available board power of silly halo products, but somehow the 3090Ti is the outrage lightning-rod for both and is making everyone worried for the future, despite a rich history of similar level products is the last decade or so. Ahh well, I suppose next time Nvidia or AMD make something that fits in this space, history will repeat itself yet again?


----------



## Bzuco (May 2, 2022)

@W1zzard that is possible only if you prepare those models from scratch for your self. Plenty of models you can buy on market or for free have exaggerated polycounts. Remodeling cost additional time. With textures it is easier, textures from market with 4pix. per one milimeter can be easily resized to something reasonable.

@Casinowilhelm + cooling solution on quadros is also not ideal


----------



## ratirt (May 2, 2022)

The power consumption is so high with this one. More than a 100W comparing to 3090 without being much faster. The price kills too.


----------



## Chrispy_ (May 2, 2022)

Casinowilhelm said:


> I'm what you'd call a "serious professional" (freelance for over 20 years). The value proposition of quadros is worse even than 3090 etc as their performance is lower at the same price point as the geforce equivalent. Using unreal engine etc for visualisation/3d rendering as we do, or gpu based renderers like redshift,  it makes most sense to get the best gaming cards available rather than quadros, and every single freelancer I know doing the same job as me does this. We ALL run 3090s not quadros.
> 
> Of course if you're doing Cad then quadros have those specific viewport accelerations, same for science etc. Doesn't apply to me.
> 
> I don't think this card makes much sense either though tbf. 3090 is the sweet spot if you can get it for MSRP (I was lucky at the start)


I'm in the same boat, I wear many hats but when I'm not in datacenters I spec machines for architects, engineers, and 3D modelers. I occasionally buy a Quadro or ask Nvidia to sample us a Quadro to check if there's anything we're missing out on by buying Geforces. Most of the CAD packages that were the realm of Quadros 20+ years ago now all run fine on even Intel IGPs. 

Autodesk, Bentley, Dassault, McNeel, PTC Creo - all of their stuff might have specific viewport acceleration but viewport at 60fps or 20fps doesn't really change the user experience that much. I've yet to see even our most complicated models (that require 16GB+ cards just to open the file) fail to render viewports at less than 15fps on a lowly 3060 and modelling isn't exactly like a twitch shooter, even 10fps would be plenty. The reality is that 90% of what architects and engineers work on will run at >30fps viewport speeds in best quality with a pretty pedestrian GPU *as long as there's enough VRAM* for the entire model.

Like you, I'm seeing a shift to realtime rendering with Unreal/Unity/Enscape/Twinmotion taking the place in many instances of what CPU rendering used to do. All that really matters is GPU VRAM which is why we've been buying 2080Ti, 3060 12GB, and 3090 cards. I'd have bought RX6800 in quantity when they launched if I could have found any but retail availability was scarce, not even account managers could help. My two SI distributors weren't even optioning RX 6xxxx cards. They were paper-launched over here for the first 8 months, it would seem.



W1zzard said:


> Very much appreciate that you took the time to register here and share your experience. Have you tried to bring down the VRAM requirements by using lower resolution models/textures? Would your clients ever notice?


It's a case of effort and whether that effort is cost-effective.

The people doing the modelling are usually on deadlines and simplifying the models wastes their time that could and should be spent on doing something more useful. Half the time they're not the creator of the whole model, it's a collaborative effort where they're forced to work with a bunch of externally-provided models or sub-models, all in a constant state of update. They could simplify the models to make it work better on their hardware, but the next revision of all that external data would just overwrite their simplifications and render it "time wasted"

When the employee costs $4000/month and the software license costs an additional $800/month, having them halve their workload just to save $1000 on a GPU isn't really the way it's done.
This is part of the justification for a Quadro's price tag, but unless you cannot actually open a file within the VRAM quota of a consumer GPU, there's no real incentive to spend 3x the money on the equivalent Quadro.


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Ummmm.....
> 
> "The real median personal income in the US in 2019 was $35,977/year."
> "The median household income in the US in 2019 was $68,703"
> ...


Yep, I derped and used some shitty sources. Pure lazyness. Addressed above too: here. Went looking for an international comparison (rather than sourcing number individually) and apparently stumbled onto something dubious that I really ought to have known better about. Still, as I said above, it hardly changes the crux of the argument - spending 5% of your annual income on a single PC component isn't much more realistic than 10%. Thought I would go back and strike out the poor sourcing and update it, but apparently there's a time limit on editing posts now?




nguyen said:


> Oh yeah I wonder why Nvidia stop making 2500usd GPUs like the Titan V and Titan RTX, maybe it's the free market that decided they are not worth making anymore .


... or maybe they saw an opportunity to work towards pushing public expectations for GPU pricing higher through removing the "semi-pro" segmentation that the Titan brand carried? After all, the Titan brand worked quite well as a disincentive towards considering them gaming cards (not to mention the rather tiny differences over the top gaming cards, of course) - it was a clear "this isn't for you" demarcation line. So, in a basic predatory capitalist move, they stop calling them Titans, and instead pretend as if it's perfectly reasonable for "consumer" GPUs to sell for $1500+. It's not like this strategy is difficult to analyze or understand - for them, pushing peak pricing upwards is beneficial across the stack as it shifts the basis of comparison for lower end cards. $300 looks okay-ish, but perhaps a bit high, if the most expensive product in the range is $700. If that product is $1500, or $2000? $300 is a steal!


nguyen said:


> Didn't look like you came up with a reasonable solution between "corporate hellscape" and "totalitarian government" to me


Did I claim that I did? AFAIK, all I did was attempt to discuss something in between the two, while you were strawmanning me into some kind of totalitarian position. You seem to be incapable of telling the difference between _discussing something_ and _having the answers already_.


nguyen said:


> instead you are just complaining about something you cannot change.


Ah, we're getting to the "debate is useless" argument for shutting down discussion now I see. You're running down the bad-faith arguing tactic checklist pretty quickly, you better pace yourself or you'll run out soon! But then again, we might as well shut down the forums, considering the vast majority of discussions here are just talking about things we cannot change. Go figure.


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## Dr. Dro (May 2, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Oh yeah I wonder why Nvidia stop making 2500usd GPUs like the Titan V and Titan RTX, maybe it's the free market that decided they are not worth making anymore .



Out of the bunch the Titan V was the only one whose price was more or less justified, I feel. GV100 is such an absolutely massive piece of silicon. It was also an early warning as to why didn't want 815 mm² + HBM GPUs to become the norm.



Bzuco said:


> @Casinowilhelm + cooling solution on quadros is also not ideal



Quadro/RTX enterprise cards run at much milder clocks, so their cooling solutions are not that underdimensioned, imho



ratirt said:


> The power consumption is so high with this one. More than a 100W comparing to 3090 without being much faster. The price kills too.



From experience, the extra wattage merely prevents the card from throttling, which is a *huge* deal in some games.


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

wolf said:


> Price creep, as you've somewhat covered is influenced and contributed to by many many things, the 3090Ti specifically, being a minor one if that. I'm not really interested too much in a discussion of all of the contributing factors, if we could even collectively name and quantify them.
> 
> I hate the price creep too, don't get me wrong, but to the people looking at the 3090Ti as some sort of price creep lighting rod and like Nvidia has some figurative gun to their head to buy it, and that's a pretty average take if not made in jest.


Yeah, I don't view it that way either, but given that it's the most extreme example so far (of what has been a rapidly accelerating trend for two generations now) is IMO a valid reason to discuss it. Not doing so will inevitably lead to the normalization of these kinds of prices, after all - you get used to the world being how it is unless you are regularly reminded that it doesn't have to be that way. So for me it's more about being able to maintain a critical distance to the operations of these corporations than anything else.


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## nguyen (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... or maybe they saw an opportunity to work towards pushing public expectations for GPU pricing higher through removing the "semi-pro" segmentation that the Titan brand carried? After all, the Titan brand worked quite well as a disincentive towards considering them gaming cards (not to mention the rather tiny differences over the top gaming cards, of course) - it was a clear "this isn't for you" demarcation line. So, in a basic predatory capitalist move, they stop calling them Titans, and instead pretend as if it's perfectly reasonable for "consumer" GPUs to sell for $1500+. It's not like this strategy is difficult to analyze or understand - for them, pushing peak pricing upwards is beneficial across the stack as it shifts the basis of comparison for lower end cards. $300 looks okay-ish, but perhaps a bit high, if the most expensive product in the range is $700. If that product is $1500, or $2000? $300 is a steal!



Lol yeah so according to you the existence of 3090 Ti make the 3060Ti a steal, and not because the 3060Ti by itself has awesome price-to-perf and features set, sound pretty stupid reasoning to me .


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Lol yeah so according to you the existence of 3090 Ti make the 3060Ti a steal, and not because the 3060Ti by itself has awesome price-to-perf and features set, sound pretty stupid reasoning to me .


... sigh. Is reading comprehension really that much of a challenge? Because that's a _really_ poor paraphrasing of my argument, to the degree that it entirely misrepresents what I'm saying. My point is that the higher the flagship-tier pricing, the more sensible "normal" prices _will appear_ to potential customers, all other factors being equal. (Also, why specifically bring up the 3060 Ti, a $399 MSRP, ~$600 street price GPU?) I'm not saying anything about whether any given product is a good buy or not at its price point in its real-world competitive situation, I'm talking about how this affects public perceptions and expectations. I.e. _marketing_, not _sales_. It's essentially the same idea as the Overton Window, and how public performances of extreme points of view serve to shift it over time. Consistent exposure over time on a large enough scale inevitably leads to shifting perceptions of acceptability. It's admittedly a rough analogy (mostly because of the differences between product pricing and organized politics), but it's still a useful tool for describing how PR can work in non-immediate timeframes.

So, to get back to your poorly formulated example: the existence of the 3090 Ti serves to make the 3060 Ti look less bad, but more to the point it will lower expectations of acceptable value at lower price points and shift expectations for what is "reasonable" pricing higher over time. So, the existence of a $2000 3090 Ti makes the $400-cum-$600 3060 Ti look _less bad_ (it could be more than 3x more expensive, after all), but far more importantly it would both ready the ground for >$2000 4090 Tis, as well as make any future price increase for the 60 Ti-tier look more understandable. This of course also combines with the excessive street prices we're seeing today, and the two can't readily be separated, but the effect is nonetheless there.


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## nguyen (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... sigh. Is reading comprehension really that much of a challenge? Because that's a _really_ poor paraphrasing of my argument, to the degree that it entirely misrepresents what I'm saying. My point is that the higher the flagship-tier pricing, the more sensible "normal" prices _will appear_ to potential customers, all other factors being equal. (Also, why specifically bring up the 3060 Ti, a $399 MSRP, ~$600 street price GPU?) I'm not saying anything about whether any given product is a good buy or not at its price point in its real-world competitive situation, I'm talking about how this affects public perceptions and expectations. I.e. _marketing_, not _sales_. It's essentially the same idea as the Overton Window, and how public performances of extreme points of view serve to shift it over time. Consistent exposure over time on a large enough scale inevitably leads to shifting perceptions of acceptability. It's admittedly a rough analogy (mostly because of the differences between product pricing and organized politics), but it's still a useful tool for describing how PR can work in non-immediate timeframes.
> 
> So, to get back to your poorly formulated example: the existence of the 3090 Ti serves to make the 3060 Ti look less bad, but more to the point it will lower expectations of acceptable value at lower price points and shift expectations for what is "reasonable" pricing higher over time. So, the existence of a $2000 3090 Ti makes the $400-cum-$600 3060 Ti look _less bad_ (it could be more than 3x more expensive, after all), but far more importantly it would both ready the ground for >$2000 4090 Tis, as well as make any future price increase for the 60 Ti-tier look more understandable. This of course also combines with the excessive street prices we're seeing today, and the two can't readily be separated, but the effect is nonetheless there.



You are describing people who buy stuff based on PR material and not the actual reviews, well suck to be those people I guess. But here you are talking to a bunch of techie who read through multiple reviews before making a purchase.

No one here would have any problem with 2000usd GPU if it had the same price-to-performance as the 3060 Ti, we are in a tech enthusiast forum after all.

So yeah the 3090Ti is a stupid GPU at 2000usd, but I'm open to future 2000usd GPU that completely decimate lower SKUs (like 1080 Ti vs 1080). I bet future 400usd GPU would provide good uplift over 3060Ti too, otherwise it make no sense to buy.


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## wolf (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> but given that it's the most extreme example so far


Is it? I'd make the case that these products effectively replace TITAN class products, given they're absent from the current lineup, and a good proportion of similar buyers would consider them.

2017, TITAN V - $2999 USD
2018, TITAN RTX - $2499 USD

maybe they lowered the price of the 3090 relative to those to attract more buyers back to TITAN-esque products? Who knows, but examples of extreme price and power consumption aren't new to the 3090Ti, it's the product du jour.


Valantar said:


> is IMO a valid reason to discuss it. Not doing so will inevitably lead to the normalization of these kinds of prices, after all - you get used to the world being how it is unless you are regularly reminded that it doesn't have to be that way. So for me it's more about being able to maintain a critical distance to the operations of these corporations than anything else.


I mean, I certainly like your sentiment there, and boy do I wish we could make an impact. But I suppose I'm just too cynical to see this making a meaningful impact. People with deep pockets/willing to spend big/treat themselves for their hobbies will buy these products, you and I cannot talk them out of that. So to me, a lot of the ... lets say complaints and worry about these products is misplaced, they're never good value, and they almost never are the most efficient. 

I think the best we can hope for is voting with wallets en masse and buying products in the 'meat' of the lineups, closer to the efficiency and price to performance sweetspot, but again, the cynic in me doesn't think the relative few of us who are super into this and are invested in the market can really make the difference you seek. Especially given the vast majority of gamers sit in that category, and already are at least trying to do that, and prices are still creeping up, and average people have paid crazy inflated market prices... the creep just feels ... inevitable, which of course to some extent it was always going to be.

In any case like I said I like your sentiment and I hope and wish we can influence the market, I just won't hold my breath for it.


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

nguyen said:


> You are describing people who buy stuff based on PR material and not the actual reviews, well suck to be those people I guess. But here you are talking to a bunch of techie who read through multiple reviews before making a purchase.


No. I am not describing any particular group of people whatsoever - and that takes us a significant step towards identifying why you're so dead set on derailing what is otherwise a relevant and useful point of discussion: you're essentially enacting the neoliberal/late stage capitalist move of individualizing everything as much as possible, denying the existence of larger-scale structures. What I am describing is the large-scale movement of expectations and ideas over time, for a large-scale population. This includes _everyone_ given sufficient time and exposure. Heck, due to the degree of technofetishism and upgrade mania typically found in tech enthusiast circles, one could make an equally strong argument for enthusiasts being _less_ prone to criticise price hikes (as long as they come along with a perceived increase in absolute performance). Which is exactly what we're seeing with people making the "It might be expensive at $2k, but at least it's the fastest GPU around" argument.


nguyen said:


> No one here would have any problem with 2000usd GPU if it had the same price-to-performance as the 3060 Ti, we are in a tech enthusiast forum after all.


Nonsense. There are absolutely reasonable arguments to be made as to why the very existence of such a product tier is directly harmful to the overall PC (gaming or not) enthusiast scene. There are also arguments to be made for them being beneficial, and we can agree or disagree on those, but saying "no one here would have any problem" is some _real_ overreach.

(Of course, a $2000 SKU delivering the same perf/$ of a nominally $400 SKU would also taint the value proposition of cheaper cards, going against the near-ubiquitous expectations that (down to a certain point) lower-priced SKUs deliver better overall value (in part due to economics of scale).)


nguyen said:


> So yeah the 3090Ti is a stupid GPU at 2000usd, but I'm open to future 2000usd GPU that completely decimate lower SKUs (like 1080 Ti vs 1080). I bet future 400usd GPU would provide good uplift over 3060Ti too, otherwise it make no sense to buy.


... so if AMD and Nvidia in the future just cripple their lower-tier GPUs sufficiently, you'll be fine with the well performing one costing $2000? Yeah, I know that's not what you're meaning to say, but your wording makes that an equally valid reading as the opposite. There's good reason to be careful with how you formulate your arguments.

As for future $400 GPUs delivering a good uplift over the 3060 Ti - that would be the hope, but developments over the past few years have been towards performance/$ stagnation more than anything else. Equally likely as things stand today is that the 4060 Ti will launch at $500-600 and deliver a performance increase equivalent to that price increase in %. It would be very nice to be wrong about that, but I'm not very hopeful.

Heck, the GTX 1080 Ti vs. the 1080 is an excellent example of the literal opposite of price creep. The non-Ti 1080 launched at "$599" with the real base price being the $699 FE pricing (as nearly all AIB models matched or exceeded that price, with only a few, low-stock exceptions). The 1080 Ti then launched a few months later _at the same price_, while delivering a 19%/28%/35% performance increase (1080p/1440p/2160p). _For the same price_. That is great value, and it's the opposite of price creep. Of course the 1080 on its part had pushed MSRPs for 80-tier cards $50-150 (non-FE and FE/most AIBs respectively), even exceeding the $650 MSRP of the 980 Ti, so there was some price creep there, but the 1080 Ti largely counteracted that, bringing the 1080 Ti within $50 of the 980 Ti launch price. Thus, the 1080 Ti is a perfect example of the exact opposite of what you're arguing.

On the other hand, for this generation of GPUs, even the MSRPs - which have mostly been way lower than street prices - have represented same-or-less perf/$ compared to previous-gen alternatives. This generation has been dominated by stagnant or dropping performance/$, which is unprecedented within the GPU space.

Another crucial distinction here that has disappeared with the death of the Titan moniker: xx80 Ti SKUs, despite their overall poor value compared to lower tier products, used to represent a "value" proposition compared to those, with >95% of their performance at half the price or less. Now, instead of that borderline consumer-friendly segmentation (that still had plenty of room for "if you have the money..." type of products), we have a never-ending runoff towards ever-higher "consumer" flagship prices. This is of course beneficial to profit-seeking corporations that don't care whatsoever about their customers, but ... well, I'm not beholden to them, nor do I have to accept the harmful, extremist ideology that type of dogma represents. Just because it's the dominant ideology currently, and legally required in some areas, does not make it inevitable or any less harmful.



wolf said:


> Is it? I'd make the case that these products effectively replace TITAN class products, given they're absent from the current lineup, and a good proportion of similar buyers would consider them.
> 
> 2017, TITAN V - $2999 USD
> 2018, TITAN RTX - $2499 USD
> ...


There is definitely an interesting discussion to be had around the effects on pricing and customer perception that come with the death of the Titan sub-brand, and you can see some of my points of view on that above. It's a bit of a side discussion, but overall I see this as a conscious move aimed at normalizing these products and their prices as "consumer" rather than "prosumer" oriented (which was the target of the Titan brand in what little marketing it got - the Quadro for those not wanting to pay Quadro prices). I think the removal of the mental cut-off point of the Titan brand (signalling "this isn't for you, relax, go look at Geforce cards") is exactly what Nvidia were aiming for with this move, even if the 3090 and 3090 Ti are so to speak spiritual successors to that line of products. The absence of separate branding is, IMO, exactly the point, and exactly what makes it problematic.


wolf said:


> I mean, I certainly like your sentiment there, and boy do I wish we could make an impact. But I suppose I'm just too cynical to see this making a meaningful impact. People with deep pockets/willing to spend big/treat themselves for their hobbies will buy these products, you and I cannot talk them out of that. So to me, a lot of the ... lets say complaints and worry about these products is misplaced, they're never good value, and they almost never are the most efficient.


I can definitely understand that, as I generally understand pessimism and cynicism towards the world in general as it stands today. I just refuse to give up and lay down and die, so to speak - 'cause the options are either giving up entirely, assimilating, or attempting resistance. And I don't want to give up on my favourite hobby, nor would I ever want to assimilate into this set of beliefs - so I don't have much of a choice.

It's the classic situation of those with money and other privileges always having an easier time overall - they are louder, more visible, typically lead easier lives and have more resources to spend in order to ensure that, giving them more freedom to speak up about their beliefs. Of course the PC scene also to some degree inherently privileges these positions through its constant chasing of performance, which thus inherently also privileges those with the fastest hardware to some degree. I mean, if everyone still gaming on a GTX 1060 and reasonably happy with that spent as much time arguing their point of view as those with high end flagship GPUs today do arguing for theirs, the discourse here would look quite different.


wolf said:


> I think the best we can hope for is voting with wallets en masse and buying products in the 'meat' of the lineups, closer to the efficiency and price to performance sweetspot, but again, the cynic in me doesn't think the relative few of us who are super into this and are invested in the market can really make the difference you seek. Especially given the vast majority of gamers sit in that category, and already are at least trying to do that, and prices are still creeping up, and average people have paid crazy inflated market prices... the creep just feels ... inevitable, which of course to some extent it was always going to be.


Yeah, that's the problem with the concept of "voting with your wallet" - it essentially requires a utopian combination of engaged and concsious customers sufficiently informed to make conscious choices and sufficiently privileged to _not_ choose what might otherwise fulfill their desired. Heck, there has been _one single_ successful large-scale boycott in the history of the world - that against apartheid South Africa. Of course that also had a far larger target than the GPU industry, but that example tells us quite a lot about what is required for that type of movement to succeed. And, of course, history is littered with examples of failed attempts at similar movements with similar goals.

Of course, that feeling of inevitability that you describe is precisely the point - and one that corporations and corporate-friendly ideologues are explicitly and concertedly working towards. Disillusionment in your opposition is a far, far easier and more effective tool towards getting what you want than actively and openly fighting them. That's pretty much the entire reason why neoliberalism has grown to become the dominant economic system in the world today, despite essentially nobody outside of a small group of hardliners (the Nixon-Reagan-Thatcher idolizers) really believing that this economic system is good at all. It's a mode of politics that is predicated on tiring out your opposition by making seemingly logical claims ("cutting government expenses is good") that require complex explanations of why they are wrong, while also winning over a public that is suffering from an increasing attention overload and is effectively rendered unable to process long-ranging, complex processes and ideas through the sheer sensory and mental overload of how their day-to-day lives are. If people are too tired to listen to complex counter-argumnets, they're more likely to not disagree or agree with your position. If people need to work three jobs to pay rent, and thus can't afford to strike or attend a protest, you're less likely to have massive protests staged against your self-serving legislation. Distractions and straw men are extremely important parts of this ideology, and that's exactly what ludicrously priced products like this serve as. That they also come with an undertone of "man, it would be great if I could afford one of those" only helps their cause.


wolf said:


> In any case like I said I like your sentiment and I hope and wish we can influence the market, I just won't hold my breath for it.


Yeah, me neither. But while I can't predict any kind of positive outcome of my own actions, I know that my inaction will _definitely_ not have any postive outcomes. So, as long as I have the energy, I'll gladly be the difficult one pointing out the systemic problems of things like this. I might even get through to a couple of people. Then again, there's also a reason why I'm far less active on the forums now than I have been previously.


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## Chrispy_ (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Did I claim that I did? AFAIK, all I did was attempt to discuss something in between the two, while you were strawmanning me into some kind of totalitarian position. You seem to be incapable of telling the difference between _discussing something_ and _having the answers already_.


Just put him on ignore like I did and enjoy your Monday. He's dragging two more of you further off-topic with straw man arguments and stupid shit that you never said, intentionally misunderstanding your words for the purpose of trolling, AFAICT....


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## dayne878 (May 2, 2022)

Regarding the value proposition of this card, I agree with the poster talking about how the high prices of newer SKUs is bringing up the "acceptable minimum" of lower SKU cards.

For example, if the 3090ti is MSRP $2000 and actually goes for $2400 street price then that becomes the new "ceiling" for a non-Titan SKU. That then allows them to increase the MSRP of the 3090, the 3080ti, etc. down the until even the 3060 becomes $400, etc. I'll be interested to see the pricing tiers of the 4000 series later this year (assuming it comes later this year).

Someone brought up cell phones as an example of how people can afford $1000 phones. Yes, they CAN, but it's on payment plans. It's added to their cell phone bill and then over the course of 2 years they pay it off or they trade it in after a year, etc. and add the new phone to a payment plan. That doesn't mean every phone buyer has $1000 cash ready to go that isn't obligated somewhere else. Paying $35-$40/month as payments is far more "feasible" for the average middle-class buyer.

Personally, when I'm ready to buy, I'll probably end up using something like Affirm, etc. to create a "payment plan" for whatever model I buy, such as the 3080 or 3080ti. Yes, it will probably cost me more due to interest payments, but it allows me to get the card "now" instead of saving for months or years to be able to pay cash. I pay it off over 2 years and can pay it off early with no penalty. That's not the best mindset, I know (I should be setting cash aside to pay for it eventually), but that's all I can do for now.


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

dayne878 said:


> Regarding the value proposition of this card, I agree with the poster talking about how the high prices of newer SKUs is bringing up the "acceptable minimum" of lower SKU cards.
> 
> For example, if the 3090ti is MSRP $2000 and actually goes for $2400 street price then that becomes the new "ceiling" for a non-Titan SKU. That then allows them to increase the MSRP of the 3090, the 3080ti, etc. down the until even the 3060 becomes $400, etc. I'll be interested to see the pricing tiers of the 4000 series later this year (assuming it comes later this year).
> 
> ...


That's IMO a pretty sensible approach - selectively and critically using downpayments to get stuff you can't afford outright is essentially mandatory in today's society. The days of people having the kind of economic security that the statement "just save up for it" made any real sense are long gone for the vast majority of people - with stagnant wages and ever-increasing costs of living, it's much more feasible to handle something "mandatory" (a bill, with consequences for not paying) than putting away money on your own accord. Saving is ultimately something only the reasonably wealthy can afford to do. That is of course not a wholesale endorsement of using downpayments - a lot of them come with absolutely horrible interest and late fees, so being selective is crucial, and it's equally crucial to not go overboard and sign up for something you might not be able to afford. But to put it this way: I'm not spending 6000 SEK on a Xbox Series X when I have a powerful PC, but if I qualified for Xbox All Access (I don't because the stupid credit check here in Sweden requires me having lived here for three years), I would have had one a year ago. It's the same with phones, like you say. Paying for $1000 phones outright is a privilege only a few people can afford (which is also a large part of why the phone repair industry is so vibrant - most people can't afford to replace their $1000 phone if it breaks!).

GPU makers have a vested interest in pushing public perceptions of how much a mainstream GPU is "worth" ever higher, as this increases average selling prices and has the potential to boost their margins significantly. Which, ultimately, means that they're looking for more ways to squeeze more money out of customers, ideally while giving as little back as possible.


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## Chrispy_ (May 2, 2022)

dayne878 said:


> Regarding the value proposition of this card, I agree with the poster talking about how the high prices of newer SKUs is bringing up the "acceptable minimum" of lower SKU cards.
> 
> For example, if the 3090ti is MSRP $2000 and actually goes for $2400 street price then that becomes the new "ceiling" for a non-Titan SKU. That then allows them to increase the MSRP of the 3090, the 3080ti, etc. down the until even the 3060 becomes $400, etc. I'll be interested to see the pricing tiers of the 4000 series later this year (assuming it comes later this year).


You're right - what matters is the median cost.
The flagships can be as much as they want, but as long as the popular models that "do the job adequately" aren't massively increasing in price, we're all good.

The $200 sweet spot isn't $200 any more for various economic reasons I've gone into many times before (a 2016 $200 card costs as much to manufacture and sell as a $350 card in 2022), but if the mainstream card that tops the Steam hardware survey like the GTX 1060 has for years costs $500, then we, as consumers, have lost the fight against the corporations.


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## MxPhenom 216 (May 2, 2022)

EatingDirt said:


> This card is a colossal waste of money for... anyone. Costs $800 more than a 3080 Ti for a meagre 10% more performance. It's a joke.
> 
> 24GB of ram is simply a waste of RAM on a gaming card, and Nvidia's marketing justifying it is quite frankly ridiculous (If you're a serious professional you'll be using a professional card, aka Quadro 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, all at a similar price range and RAM capacity of this card.) Just like the 3090 before it, this card almost exclusively for rich gamers, or ones that have too much ego to get anything but 'the best'.


This 100% depends on the professional app being used. Majority of the time there isnt much benefit in a Quadro especially if the app is just OpenGL based. For instance my buddy that i build his workstations for uses CAD, and we are in close contact with the devs of the software he uses and they dont even recommend a Quadro to us so his newest rig got a RTX3090 in it for the VRAM. Which was cheaper and higher performing than any Quadro with 24gb or more VRAM we could get.


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## Pypitr (May 2, 2022)

Can somebody tell me if I do wrong.
I have old HP z840 workstation with dual e5-2667v3 processors. Would it work together with 3090ti? Or cpus are too old?
I use it for 3d modeling mainly, viewport performance really matter with heavy scene and files over 1Gb. I have 128gb ddr4 memory to handle big files.


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## EatingDirt (May 2, 2022)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> This 100% depends on the professional app being used. Majority of the time there isnt much benefit in a Quadro especially if the app is just OpenGL based. For instance my buddy that i build his workstations for uses CAD, and we are in close contact with the devs of the software he uses and they dont even recommend a Quadro to us so his newest rig got a RTX3090 in it for the VRAM. Which was cheaper and higher performing than any Quadro with 24gb or more VRAM we could get.


There's a small use case for the 3090, yes. It hovers in that sweet spot price-to-performance+RAM range between the A4000(16GB), A4500(20GB), A5000(24GB) & A6000(48GB). The 3090 Ti on the other hand really doesn't lie in any sweet spot, mostly due to its excessive power consumption and it's price. 

There are a lot of advantages to the  A5000 over the 3090 Ti. It will be slower in the vast majority of rendering tasks, but it also: has the same amount of RAM, ECC RAM if needed, similar price, lower power consumption(200W less), better support if needed, and is a 2 slot card so can be bridged 3x for added performance if raw GPU power is needed.  AMD's W6800, has similar pro's and cons, likely similar performance to the A5000, and even more VRAM than either at 32GB.


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## tussinman (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> As for future $400 GPUs delivering a good uplift over the 3060 Ti - that would be the hope, but developments over the past few years have been towards performance/$ stagnation more than anything else. Equally likely as things stand today is that the 4060 Ti will launch at $500-600 and deliver a performance increase equivalent to that price increase in %. It would be very nice to be wrong about that, but I'm not very hopeful.


Was actually talking to someone last week about this. The current rumor/word from nvidia is that they want to keep producing 3000 series cards once the 4000 series comes out.

That if anything makes it way more likely they'll nerf the 4060. Heard alot of people the last few months say "oh i'll just wait till I can get 3080 performance on a $400 4060" but I doubt that comes close to truth.

If anything I think they'll keep producing the 3050, 3060, 3060ti at MSRP prices ($250, $329, $399) or maybe slightly under MSRP prices then jack the prices up on the 4060/4070. 

That third party 4060 might be $500-529 range (basically 3070 original MSRP prices) but only 5-10% faster than the 3070. That if anything is more realistic then "$400 3080 coming soon"


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## nguyen (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> No. I am not describing any particular group of people whatsoever - and that takes us a significant step towards identifying why you're so dead set on derailing what is otherwise a relevant and useful point of discussion: you're essentially enacting the neoliberal/late stage capitalist move of individualizing everything as much as possible, denying the existence of larger-scale structures. What I am describing is the large-scale movement of expectations and ideas over time, for a large-scale population. This includes _everyone_ given sufficient time and exposure. Heck, due to the degree of technofetishism and upgrade mania typically found in tech enthusiast circles, one could make an equally strong argument for enthusiasts being _less_ prone to criticise price hikes (as long as they come along with a perceived increase in absolute performance). Which is exactly what we're seeing with people making the "It might be expensive at $2k, but at least it's the fastest GPU around" argument.



IDK if you are being hypocritical like @Chrispy_ or not but you bought an 6900XTXH, a very _capitalistic_ GPU from AMD while preaching how the market is moving to the wrong direction. "Do as I say, not as I do" eh.


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

tussinman said:


> Was actually talking to someone last week about this. The current rumor/word from nvidia is that they want to keep producing 3000 series cards once the 4000 series comes out.
> 
> That if anything makes it way more likely they'll nerf the 4060. Heard alot of people the last few months say "oh i'll just wait till I can get 3080 performance on a $400 4060" but I doubt that comes close to truth.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sadly I think you're probably close to the truth. Which would be a damn travesty - but recent history shows us that things like these absolutely do happen.


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## nguyen (May 2, 2022)

tussinman said:


> Was actually talking to someone last week about this. The current rumor/word from nvidia is that they want to keep producing 3000 series cards once the 4000 series comes out.
> 
> That if anything makes it way more likely they'll nerf the 4060. Heard alot of people the last few months say "oh i'll just wait till I can get 3080 performance on a $400 4060" but I doubt that comes close to truth.
> 
> ...



Not gonna happen, the market is gonna get saturated with old Ampere GPU soon enough that in order to sell new GPU, both AMD and Nvidia have to make the new gen more appetizing: higher efficiency, better price to performance. Nvidia and AMD know from experience the blow back from crypto mining boom is coming soon
Nvidia stock drop 31% in 2018


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## Valantar (May 2, 2022)

nguyen said:


> IDK if you are being hypocritical like @Chrispy_ or not but you bought an 6900XTXH, a very _capitalistic_ GPU from AMD while preaching how the market is moving to the wrong direction. "Do as I say, not as I do" eh.


Shows how you shouldn't be presumptive, I guess? Yes, I am lucky enough to have one of those in my PC, though that is purely down to a once-in-a-lifetime circumstance, rather than my personal disposable income. The same applies to the whole system build, really. Also, before that I had kept my previous GPU for six years, FWIW. And outside of those special circumstances, I wouldn't have been able to afford a GPU at all in the market at that time. If things had been more normal I would most likely quite recently have bought a 6600, or at best a 6600 XT, and been using it with my old Ryzen 1600X. Still, I'm well aware of my privilege - which is of course not limited to this one lucky chance, but also includes things like being born in one of the richest, happiest, and most egalitarian countries on earth, among other things. Does that make me a hypocrite? Obviously, to some extent. Then again there is literally no person on earth who isn't. Owning an exorbitantly expensive GPU that I could never afford on my own this doesn't make me sleep any worse at night. I don't claim to be a paragon of non-hypocrisy, nor do I think being lucky like this robs me of the right to criticize harmful structures - quite the opposite, as someone in a very privileged position I have more opportunity to do so than most, and should take on that burden.

Also, describing a GPU as capitalistic gave me a good giggle. I get your meaning, but to use that word that way just betrays the complete lack of understanding beneath your arguments. I sincerely doubt that GPU holds to any particular ideology, though of course you're free to ask it.


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## wheresmycar (May 2, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Not gonna happen, the market is gonna get saturated with old Ampere GPU soon enough that in order to sell new GPU, both AMD and Nvidia have to make the new gen more appetizing: higher efficiency, *"better price to performance"*. Nvidia and AMD know from experience the blow back from crypto mining boom is coming soon
> Nvidia stock drop 31% in 2018



lol really?

I knew Dr Strange's multi-verse cross dimension transgressions were real... you're definitely not from our neck of the heavenly constellations.


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## nguyen (May 2, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Shows how you shouldn't be presumptive, I guess? Yes, I am lucky enough to have one of those in my PC, though that is purely down to a once-in-a-lifetime circumstance, rather than my personal disposable income. The same applies to the whole system build, really. Also, before that I had kept my previous GPU for six years, FWIW. And outside of those special circumstances, I wouldn't have been able to afford a GPU at all in the market at that time. If things had been more normal I would most likely quite recently have bought a 6600, or at best a 6600 XT, and been using it with my old Ryzen 1600X. Still, I'm well aware of my privilege - which is of course not limited to this one lucky chance, but also includes things like being born in one of the richest, happiest, and most egalitarian countries on earth, among other things. Does that make me a hypocrite? Obviously, to some extent. Then again there is literally no person on earth who isn't. Owning an exorbitantly expensive GPU that I could never afford on my own this doesn't make me sleep any worse at night. I don't claim to be a paragon of non-hypocrisy, nor do I think being lucky like this robs me of the right to criticize harmful structures - quite the opposite, as someone in a very privileged position I have more opportunity to do so than most, and should take on that burden.
> 
> Also, describing a GPU as capitalistic gave me a good giggle. I get your meaning, but to use that word that way just betrays the complete lack of understanding beneath your arguments. I sincerely doubt that GPU holds to any particular ideology, though of course you're free to ask it.



Well AMD locks down the normal 6900XT in order to sell the 6900XTXH, that's what I call a capitalistic move. FYI I'm from a communist country so all your preaching sound extremely hypocritical to me. 



wheresmycar said:


> lol really?
> 
> I knew Dr Strange's multi-verse cross dimension transgressions were real... you're definitely not from our neck of the heavenly constellations.



Well let see how the crypto blow back is panning out shall we


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## wolf (May 3, 2022)

nguyen said:


> that's what I call a capitalistic move


Which is why I care far less about the companies themselves and just want to buy and enjoy kickass products. Neither are my friend, and I have little issue separating any feelings about either of them from the products they make, judged on their own merits.


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## ratirt (May 3, 2022)

@Valantar You bro are totally right. The perception of people seeing 3090 and Ti's for this price and being OK with it is going to harm them sooner or later, considering where things are going. But how to explain people who even protect this type of travesty?
I see some are saying that the perf/$  is the same or higher. well if you bump the price for lower tier cards to make them less desirable sure. Well, with that approach, if (same people) say that the 4090 lets say, is going to be 2 times faster than a 3090, we should have the 4090 sold for $3.9k? It would still be a good value in some people's eyes, won't it? That thinking is so demeaning or simply plain stupid. I'm sure when it comes to that all those above saying it is OK will literally bite their tongues. There is finite resources people have. I can buy a card for $4k not a problem but I don't want to do that for whatever reason and definitely not gonna say it is OK because there is a value there. Value, has something more than perf/$ mark. We cant also put the blame on inflation that's for sure. It is a planned approach for companies that has been developing for years. It needs time and by reading some of the posts here it is definitely working.

BTW, Titan cards had a different driver which was enabling features other consumer cards did not have. This has been brought to discussion when 1000 series cards were released and titan was missing. Of course the top consumer card reached the titan price point obviously.


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## Valantar (May 3, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well AMD locks down the normal 6900XT in order to sell the 6900XTXH, that's what I call a capitalistic move.


... so a major international corporation being expressly capitalist (what a shocker!) inherently taints their products on a per-product basis, a taint that also then transfers to individuals? Yeah, sorry, I don't follow that logic. Questions like this can't be atomized into individuals and single decisions. As I said above, I as every other human being on earth am absolutely hypocritical in a number of ways. I still try to act in line with my views to the best of my abilities - and IMO, taking a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get to use a high-end GPU when my old one was barely scraping by is barely a blip on that scale. There might - just might! -be more meaningful actions one can take, such as ... oh, I don't know, voting, being in a union, leading a low-waste, low-consumption lifestyle, etc. But there's a crucial point you're misisng here, that was explicit in my above posts: individualizing questions like this is a diversionary tactic on your part, nothing more. Individual actions _don't matter_ in the grand scheme of things. Individualization of responsibility for societal ills is a key tactic of neoliberal capitalism, moving the focus from reforming our economic systems and putting responsibility onto major actors and instead onto individual people and making them feel a need to living "responsible lives". While consumption overall is a major problem on many front, the major driver of consumption isn't some innate desire to consume, but rather the manufacturing of this desire through marketing and cultural production. In order to change society for the better, one needs to start reforms from the top, putting pressure on major actors with resources and access - that's how you enact meaningful change. Starting from the bottom, guilt-tripping individuals into "buying better" is diversionary nonsense that only serves to undermine any effort towards real change.


nguyen said:


> FYI I'm from a communist country so all your preaching sound extremely hypocritical to me.


Cool. I ... don't quite see how that matters? Does where you're from somehow afford you a total insight into my actions as an individual? Because if not, then you're just making dumb judgements based on too little information. And, once again, you're completely missing the point of this whole discussion.

(And, for the record, AFAIK there aren't and have never been any _actual_ communist countries - there have been attempts, and many have claimed to be communist, but they have all been undermined either entirely or significantly by corruption, nepotism, unprincipled (or just plain non-communist) leaders, overly strict hierarchies, or outside intervention (the CIA says hi!), causing them to typically morph into some kind of totalitarian autocratic/oligarchic state instead. Now, I'm not a communist, but the classic hand-waving "look how messed up _those_ countries are/were" move is hardly convincing as an argument for the virtues of capitalism.)



nguyen said:


> Well let see how the crypto blow back is panning out shall we


Stock prices essentially only represent the (quasi-random) feelings of stock brokers and traders, and have _very_ little to do with the actual performance or value of a company. Heck, just look at stock traders' preference for shouty macho men on TV giving trading advice - it's all about being made to feel powerful. Also, given that the vast majority of crypto is held and traded by people in the financial industry, it's hardly surprising that they also support (through pushing share prices up) the companies supporting this """industry""" in boom periods. They are inherently biased, as they have a vested interest in crypto maintaining or growing in value, making share prices a fundamentally flawed method for gauging overall reactions to companies investing in crypto. And, of course, this all traces back to the inherent misunderstanding of treating the stock market as somehow indicative of "the health of the economy", rather than being a large-scale gauge for how secure (or panicked) stock brokers are feeling that day. The stock market writ large has next to nothing to do with the overall economic sustainability of the companies traded there.


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## Shatun_Bear (May 3, 2022)

There's going to be people with more money than sense gaming on these and being surprised when it literally spits out the same heat as a mini electric heater. My small office heater is 500W.


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## Chrispy_ (May 3, 2022)

Pypitr said:


> Can somebody tell me if I do wrong.
> I have old HP z840 workstation with dual e5-2667v3 processors. Would it work together with 3090ti? Or cpus are too old?
> I use it for 3d modeling mainly, viewport performance really matter with heavy scene and files over 1Gb. I have 128gb ddr4 memory to handle big files.


It depends on what software you're using, and what you're modelling.

In some software, viewports are heavily accelerated by the GPU, in other software (notably Autodesk/Bentley) the viewports are limited almost entirely by the CPU.

Your CPUs are old but high-end and should be fine, if not the fastest thing going any more.

The best thing to do is search the forums of the specific software you're using and find out what resources it needs to improve. Sometimes it's single-threaded CPU performance (Autodesk, Bentley), Sometimes it's GPU speed or features (McNeel, Dassault, PTC Creo), Sometimes it's a mix of both.

Sorry but there's no one-size-fits-all answer; It depends on too many factors.


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## EatingDirt (May 3, 2022)

Pypitr said:


> Can somebody tell me if I do wrong.
> I have old HP z840 workstation with dual e5-2667v3 processors. Would it work together with 3090ti? Or cpus are too old?
> I use it for 3d modeling mainly, viewport performance really matter with heavy scene and files over 1Gb. I have 128gb ddr4 memory to handle big files.


I'm not entirely certain a HP z840 workstation PSU could handle a 3090 Ti combined with 2 e5-2667v3 CPU's. It depends on what PSU it has in it. I suggest checking that first. Keep in mind continuous Peak power draw for your setup with a 3090 Ti would be over 720w(720w is just the CPU & GPU, ignoring all other components).


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## nguyen (May 3, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... so a major international corporation being expressly capitalist (what a shocker!) inherently taints their products on a per-product basis, a taint that also then transfers to individuals? Yeah, sorry, I don't follow that logic. Questions like this can't be atomized into individuals and single decisions. As I said above, I as every other human being on earth am absolutely hypocritical in a number of ways. I still try to act in line with my views to the best of my abilities - and IMO, taking a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get to use a high-end GPU when my old one was barely scraping by is barely a blip on that scale. There might - just might! -be more meaningful actions one can take, such as ... oh, I don't know, voting, being in a union, leading a low-waste, low-consumption lifestyle, etc. But there's a crucial point you're misisng here, that was explicit in my above posts: individualizing questions like this is a diversionary tactic on your part, nothing more. Individual actions _don't matter_ in the grand scheme of things. Individualization of responsibility for societal ills is a key tactic of neoliberal capitalism, moving the focus from reforming our economic systems and putting responsibility onto major actors and instead onto individual people and making them feel a need to living "responsible lives". While consumption overall is a major problem on many front, the major driver of consumption isn't some innate desire to consume, but rather the manufacturing of this desire through marketing and cultural production. In order to change society for the better, one needs to start reforms from the top, putting pressure on major actors with resources and access - that's how you enact meaningful change. Starting from the bottom, guilt-tripping individuals into "buying better" is diversionary nonsense that only serves to undermine any effort towards real change.



Well from my perspective the 3090 Ti has less of an environmental impact than the e-waste 6500XT/6400 that people are gonna use for a year then throw away en masse, so I guess I should make a petition asking AMD to stop polluting the earth with those dGPU, let see how that turn out.



ratirt said:


> @Valantar You bro are totally right. The perception of people seeing 3090 and Ti's for this price and being OK with it is going to harm them sooner or later, considering where things are going. But how to explain people who even protect this type of travesty?
> I see some are saying that the perf/$  is the same or higher. well if you bump the price for lower tier cards to make them less desirable sure. Well, with that approach, if (same people) say that the 4090 lets say, is going to be 2 times faster than a 3090, we should have the 4090 sold for $3.9k? It would still be a good value in some people's eyes, won't it? That thinking is so demeaning or simply plain stupid. I'm sure when it comes to that all those above saying it is OK will literally bite their tongues. There is finite resources people have. I can buy a card for $4k not a problem but I don't want to do that for whatever reason and definitely not gonna say it is OK because there is a value there. Value, has something more than perf/$ mark. We cant also put the blame on inflation that's for sure. It is a planned approach for companies that has been developing for years. It needs time and by reading some of the posts here it is definitely working.
> 
> BTW, Titan cards had a different driver which was enabling features other consumer cards did not have. This has been brought to discussion when 1000 series cards were released and titan was missing. Of course the top consumer card reached the titan price point obviously.



I will tell you what, if 4090 were 4k usd and Navi31 were 2k usd and they offer the same rasterization/RT, I will definitely buy Navi31, not like I'm forced to buy Nvidia am I  

Are you gonna say the Navi31 is stupid a GPU at 2k? I guess you won't


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## wolf (May 3, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Native is best, I don't think that's ever been up for debate


Not sure you saw my quote in a previous reply, you believe this is the case? From what I've seen and know, it's not debated anymore that Native _can _be exceeded, the first example that springs to mind is traditional supersampling.

Take this example, you have a 1080p monitor, you render at 4k, downsample that to 1080p and display it. Yet to see that not look better (cleaner, more detail)


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## Chrispy_ (May 3, 2022)

wolf said:


> Not sure you saw my quote in a previous reply, you believe this is the case? From what I've seen and know, it's not debated anymore that Native _can _be exceeded, the first example that springs to mind is traditional supersampling.
> 
> Take this example, you have a 1080p monitor, you render at 4k, downsample that to 1080p and display it. Yet to see that not look better.


The context of the discussion was specifically ways to improve framerate, making a card like the 6700XT or 3060Ti playable at 4K when native framerates weren't good enough.
so in context it's "native vs upscaled" and nothing else.

Supersampling is genuinely great for image quality but if you're struggling to get playable framerates at 4K, turning on supersampling and rendering the game internally at 8K sure as heck isn't going to be of any use. I would have thought that was such a blindingly obvious fact that it didn't need specifically mentioning.


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## wolf (May 3, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Native is best, I don't think that's ever been up for debate





Chrispy_ said:


> The context of the discussion was specifically ways to improve framerate


Seems to me like that statement is inferring image quality, and if we agree that;


Chrispy_ said:


> Supersampling is genuinely great for image quality


And what DLSS aims to do is supersampling, it mustn't be impossible that at least aspects of the image can be a positive for image quality over native.

I'm not saying it doesn't have negatives, but I turn DLSS on not only because framerate goes up, but because it looks genuinely better to my eyes/tastes.


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## ratirt (May 3, 2022)

nguyen said:


> I will tell you what, if 4090 were 4k usd and Navi31 were 2k usd and they offer the same rasterization/RT, I will definitely buy Navi31, not like I'm forced to buy Nvidia am I
> 
> Are you gonna say the Navi31 is stupid a GPU at 2k? I guess you won't


You are missing the point and you yourself bring arguments which are total nonsense. 
The price gauging that has happened and is still in effect till this day, was terrible and I dont want to see it. Looking for an excuse to justify incredible price increase with new GPUs is foolish and I wont say it is OK, no matter which producer is behind it, especially if the demand is dropping and situation is stabilizing slowly. But obviously for you is just looking for an excuse ain't that right? 
You would buy it because you are blind and a hypocrite and all you do here is troll and fail to admit you are wrong. Which makes sense considering your communistic ideology which you have announced yourself. Good luck with that.


nguyen said:


> Well from my perspective the 3090 Ti has less of an environmental impact than the e-waste 6500XT/6400 that people are gonna use for a year then throw away en masse, so I guess I should make a petition asking AMD to stop polluting the earth with those dGPU, let see how that turn out.


Holy crap. Just stop talking dude. For real, because what you are saying is surreal.


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## Valantar (May 3, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well from my perspective the 3090 Ti has less of an environmental impact than the e-waste 6500XT/6400 that people are gonna use for a year then throw away en masse, so I guess I should make a petition asking AMD to stop polluting the earth with those dGPU, let see how that turn out.


And then we can check whataboutism off the bad-faith arguing tactic sheet too! Cool! I can't believe I still haven't had a bingo, but I must be getting close. In a way, this is both a straw man argument _and_ whataboutism - it's a twofer! What a deal! I mean, have I even argued that the 6500 XT/6400 are better for the environment than this? I mean, I _could_, but... please, please stop making up fictitious positions to argue against. If you've got nothing better to bring to the table, maybe consider that there's a reason why you're running out of arguments?


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## nguyen (May 3, 2022)

Valantar said:


> And then we can check whataboutism off the bad-faith arguing tactic sheet too! Cool! I can't believe I still haven't had a bingo, but I must be getting close. In a way, this is both a straw man argument _and_ whataboutism - it's a twofer! What a deal! I mean, have I even argued that the 6500 XT/6400 are better for the environment than this? I mean, I _could_, but... please, please stop making up fictitious positions to argue against. If you've got nothing better to bring to the table, maybe consider that there's a reason why you're running out of arguments?



Yeah sure when you stop being a hypocrite then I will stop arguing, but I guess that argument will last for eternity.



ratirt said:


> You are missing the point and you yourself bring arguments which are total nonsense.
> The price gauging that has happened and is still in effect till this day, was terrible and I dont want to see it. Looking for an excuse to justify incredible price increase with new GPUs is foolish and I wont say it is OK, no matter which producer is behind it, especially if the demand is dropping and situation is stabilizing slowly. But obviously for you is just looking for an excuse ain't that right?
> You would buy it because you are blind and a hypocrite and all you do here is troll and fail to admit you are wrong. Which makes sense considering your communistic ideology which you have announced yourself. Good luck with that.
> 
> Holy crap. Just stop talking dude. For real, because what you are saying is surreal.



I had education in the US, so I yearn for freedom to buy whatever I want without hearing from hypocrite like you saying paying 2000usd for a GPU is bad (while you paid ~1500usd for a GPU is totally okay)

I guess because there are people who live in third world country with more disposable income than you kinda make you feel bad about yourself huh, too bad then.

But hey one of my friend is famous modder that make awesome builds that cost ~20k usd, maybe I should get him to make me one like this  .


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## Valantar (May 3, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Yeah sure when you stop being a hypocrite then I will stop arguing, I guess that argument will last for eternity.


I have yet to see you present a compelling argument as to why my individual decisions, the context of which you know exactly nothing about, actually matter to this discussion. But I guess it's rather obvious that your goal here is exactly to detail the discussion rather than to bring anything useful to the table.

As I said before: we're all hypocrites on some level. That I happened to take an opportunity that could get me off the PC upgrade bandwagon for something like 5 years IMO does nothing to undermine the value of my anticapitalist arguments, nor does it go against my politics more broadly. We as individuals have no direct choice towards the economic systems in which we live out our lives (we can only work to try and change or uphold them, but nothing is guaranteed) and as such are forced by circumstance to act in ways that often go against our principles or larger scale desires. This renders arguments for the individual evils of overconsumption for all but the most extreme cases entirely irrelevant. I see no issue with occasionally splurging on creature comforts if they allow me more happiness or a better life somehow - and if that's the standard you're holding people to for even acknowledging their arguments, then there literally doesn't exist a single person on earth who would meet that standard.


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## nguyen (May 3, 2022)

Valantar said:


> This renders arguments for the individual evils of overconsumption for all but the most extreme cases entirely irrelevant. I see no issue with occasionally splurging on creature comforts if they allow me more happiness or a better life somehow - and if that's the standard you're holding people to for even acknowledging their arguments, then there literally doesn't exist a single person on earth who would meet that standard.



Well I have been splurging on high end GPUs for 20 years now and still love doing so, my wife is not complaining since I'm happy at home playing games instead of going out drinking and hooking up with other girls  (very popular activity in my country).

I love it when my country is opening up to capitalism, allowing free trade is so beneficial for everyone. Decade ago I had to travel to Singapore or Japan to even buy high end GPU and now I could buy 3090 Ti from retail for MSRP (sound crazy when median income here is only 8k usd/year ).

I studied in the US for 4 years from 2002-2006 and boy I swapped GPU like crazy during those time . So yeah, seems super counter-intuitive to me when people from capitalist country wishing for less capitalism


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## qubit (May 3, 2022)

@W1zzard Great review, as always. This is an impressive card at a reassuringly unaffordable price, sigh.

Anyway, could you please do all of us enthusiasts a little favour? I bet this card is powerful enough to game at 8K decently, especially less demanding ones, so could you please do a couple of quickie benchies at that resolution? Perhaps one with maxed details like you do for a regular review and another with reduced details to see what kind of framerate it can reach at 8K? I'd love to know how good it is at that resolution.

And by 8K, I mean a 4K monitor with 8K Dynamic Super Resolution set to 4x so you don't have to rush out and buy an 8K monitor.


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## Valantar (May 3, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Well I have been splurging on high end GPUs for 20 years now and still love doing so, my wife is not complaining since I'm happy at home playing games instead of going out drinking and hooking up with other girls  (very popular activity in my country).
> 
> I love it when my country is opening up to capitalism, allowing free trade is so beneficial for everyone. Decade ago I had to travel to Singapore or Japan to even buy high end GPU and now I could buy 3090 Ti from retail for MSRP (sound crazy when median income here is only 8k usd/year ).
> 
> I studied in the US for 4 years from 2002-2006 and boy I swapped GPU like crazy during those time . So yeah, seems super counter-intuitive to me when people from capitalist country wishing for less capitalism


Since we're getting pretty OT here I'll stick this in a spoiler tag.


Spoiler



The reason for that is quite simple: some of us living under capitalism can see the massive harm it causes. That obviously doesn't negate the harm done by people and regimes representing non-capitalist ideologies, but the harms caused by capitalism still utterly dwarf those others - by orders of magnitude.

The problem with this discussion, as with most relating to this, is that "free trade" can mean many, many, many different things, and doesn't even necessarily mean capitalism. Capitalism is a relatively recent invention; trade has existed for thousands of years. On the other hand our current branch of capitalism, the globally dominant one typically known as late stage capitalism, is characterized by massive environmental harms, massive and increasing wealth inequality, rampant pseudo-slavery in the global South, overconsumption of finite resources, stagnant wages for workers, the rich hoarding wealth and power, the weakening of democratic institutions and societal trust, and a lot more. It is, in essence, a death cult, where a handful of the ultrarich and their ideologues have managed to convince a shocking number of people that it's perfectly fine to burn the planet to the ground in order to make these people even richer.

Of course there's a common chorus of "but capitalism has lifted so many people out of poverty", about which the only problem is that there is essentially zero causal evidence for this. The world has seen a massive increase in living standards over the past couple of centuries, and has seen massive increases in quality of life due to developments in medicine and healthcare, infrastructure, agriculture, and a ton more. Very little of that can be causally attributed to capitalism per se, and while most of it has happened within capitalist countries, most of the world has also been capitalist during this time, meaning we have essentially no control group, and thus no way of determining whether capitalism actually is causally related to this or not. The same goes for the "competition and wealth are the strongest incentives" line supporting this. Or, that one's easily refuted, actually. Most people are more motivated by doing good by their own ethics, whatever they might be, than by wealth - or by security, kinship, interest, curiosity, and much more. (There is of course a group where gaining wealth _is_ doing good by their own ethics, but that's a relatively small group.) The capitalist explanation of how it is supposedly beneficial to the world is, in a broad sense, simplistic and lacking in evidence.

There is of course also the _limits_ on trade imposed by capitalist countries on non-capitalist ones - the US blockade of Cuba is an apt example of this that applies to this day. The main hindrance to Cuban prosperity has been and continues to be US sanctions and restrictions on trade, far more than its regime and politics. So pretending as if capitalism is somehow universally for "free trade" is a misnomer  - it's intentionally a closed-off in-group where someone is defined as the outsider. This also applies in a weaker sense to the factory nations of the world, which produce the vast majority of the goods sold in rich Western countries, yet see exceedingly little benefit from this. Imperialist exploitation of labor and resources in poorer countries is also an inherent part of capitalism - it is entirely predicated on there existing some poorer place from which cheap labor and resources can be extracted.

So, while there are absolutely benefits to the opening up of various regimes across the globe - insular politics are rarely good for anyone - any move towards the currently dominant mode of capitalism is one that will be deeply harmful in the long term.


From what you're saying here it sounds like you've lived a pretty privileged life compared to most of your compatriots - and pretty much anyone I know. Of course that's all a matter of perspective, and I'm well aware of the _massive_ privilege I have just from being born where I was. Still, sounds like you've got a lot to be grateful for. Given how important games have been and are for me, I have a far more vested interest in gaming becoming more accessible rather than us privileged few getting more expensive stuff to spend our money on. Sadly the signs are pretty clear, including the pricing and positioning of the 3090 Ti, that GPU makers are going the opposite way. And that's a damn shame, for the games industry, for us games lovers, and for people in general.


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## Chrispy_ (May 3, 2022)

wolf said:


> And what DLSS aims to do is supersampling, it mustn't be impossible that at least aspects of the image can be a positive for image quality over native.


You're confusing supersampling (AKA DSR, VSR) and subsampling (AKA DLSS/FFX/upscaling)

It doesn't help that Nvidia calls DLSS "Deep Learning Super Sampling" in a way to make their subsampling upscaler tech sound better than it it is, but it's not your GPU that's performing supersampling; Your GPU is upscaling.

Nvidia's excuse for calling it "Deep Learning Super Sampling" is that they took 16K reference samples, fed that into their deep learning supercomputers, and used that information to generate AA profiles on a per-game basis. Those 16K reference samples sure were supersampled, but that all went out of the window with DLSS 2.0 which basically abandoned that dubious brag and switched to a more generic motion-vector-aware + temporal AA run on the otherwise unused tensor cores in RTX architecture. Your Geforce RTX has never ever been involved with any supersampling by using DLSS.

The thing that makes DLSS "better than native" in some scenarios is that the AA algorithm used for DLSS is very very good, and it's better than TAA. Some games now support this - it's called DLAA and at native resolution it's the most expensive and best-looking AA you can get in modern game engines. I put "better than native" in quotes because _if an image is simple enough_, the benefit of DLAA vs regular FXAA or TAA is enough to offset the blur and interpolation of upscaling. If the game has loads of 1-pixel wide details, DLSS sucks. If the game doesn't, DLSS can hide the upscaling pretty well. YMMV depending on the actual game, and also from scene-to-scene depending on what sort of things are being rendered at the time.


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## wolf (May 4, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> You're confusing


No, I'm not confusing them.


Chrispy_ said:


> It doesn't help that Nvidia calls DLSS "Deep Learning Super Sampling" in a way to make their subsampling upscaler tech sound better than it it is, but it's not your GPU that's performing supersampling; Your GPU is upscaling.


It's reconstruction, not upscaling, but I get where you're going with it.


Chrispy_ said:


> Your Geforce RTX has never ever been involved with any supersampling by using DLSS.


I wouldn't be too sure about that 


Chrispy_ said:


> The thing that makes DLSS "better than native" in some scenarios


So, it is _possible_, on this we can agree.


Chrispy_ said:


> If the game has loads of 1-pixel wide details, DLSS sucks. If the game doesn't, DLSS can hide the upscaling pretty well.


DLSS excels at sub-pixel detail, it's strengths are often in 1 pixel wide details. You talk with a lot of authority about it, but from what I can see that authority is somewhat misplaced.

In any case, I think that probably does it for me, I don't see this conversation continuing and benefitting either of us, as I neither require nor desire your spurious explanations, and I doubt you'll legitimately take on board anything I have to say about it.


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## ratirt (May 4, 2022)

nguyen said:


> I had education in the US, so I yearn for freedom to buy whatever I want without hearing from hypocrite like you saying paying 2000usd for a GPU is bad (while you paid ~1500usd for a GPU is totally okay)
> 
> I guess because there are people who live in third world country with more disposable income than you kinda make you feel bad about yourself huh, too bad then.
> 
> But hey one of my friend is famous modder that make awesome builds that cost ~20k usd, maybe I should get him to make me one like this  .


Well, the education didn't give you a lot that's for sure. I guess you are losing arguments since you bring my GPU up. I didnt have a choice did I and I had to get one when during the pandemic where the shortage of the GPU's was astronomical. But I guess that is not important right?
Please google what freedom is since you absolutely have no idea. The difference between you and me, I don't need to show off how much money I have and brag about how many famous people I know. You will always be from a 3rd world not because you don't have money but you don't have respect for it and other's without it.
You are someone that will never understand. No matter how many schools and where you finish. Please google also what a hypocrite is because you call everyone that but that is you. You don't acknowledge any argument.
It is not just about paying 2000USD. Why do you keep twisting words huh? derail everything people say? Read again and again until you understand. Didn't you have reading classes at the school?



qubit said:


> @W1zzard Great review, as always. This is an impressive card at a reassuringly unaffordable price, sigh.
> 
> Anyway, could you please do all of us enthusiasts a little favour? I bet this card is powerful enough to game at 8K decently, especially less demanding ones, so could you please do a couple of quickie benchies at that resolution? Perhaps one with maxed details like you do for a regular review and another with reduced details to see what kind of framerate it can reach at 8K? I'd love to know how good it is at that resolution.
> 
> And by 8K, I mean a 4K monitor with 8K Dynamic Super Resolution set to 4x so you don't have to rush out and buy an 8K monitor.


I remember Linus had a video playing 8K DOOM on the 3090 back then. It ran pretty solid but considering the game is well optimized no wonder.
To be fair, not all games will run OK at 8K no matter what card you use available today.


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## Valantar (May 4, 2022)

nguyen said:


> I had education in the US, so I yearn for freedom to buy whatever I want without hearing from hypocrite like you saying paying 2000usd for a GPU is bad (while you paid ~1500usd for a GPU is totally okay)


Apparently I missed this part, but this is precisely how you're missing the point. Nobody is arguing that "paying X for a GPU is bad per se, paying Y would be good". That is a pure-bred straw man argument, neither more nor less. You're attempting to simplify the arguments presented, but instead you're twisting them into something literally nobody has argued either for or against in this thread. We're talking about the _effects of the existence of consumer GPUs at these price points_, long term, on things like how accessible PC gaming is, its overall value proposition, how it affects the people who care about it, how much they have to sacrifice for it, how much they are being exploited by corporations, etc. And, to simplify things (as you apparently have a strong desire for that), IMO the ever-increasing price ceiling of consumer GPUs will affect every single one of those aspects negatively - less accessible, lower value, more stressful and requiring more significant sacrifices, more exploitation. And for what? For a small segment of relatively wealthy and privileged people to have _even fancier_ GPUs. As I have argued above, there is good reason to expect this top-end price development to have knock-on effects for mainstream and even low-end GPUs. Which will hurt essentially everybody.

Sadly it seems like that education also came with a set of blinders for the context and consequences of thta "freedom to buy whatever you want" - or just a complete lack of caring about the harm it causes. Either way, those are some beliefs worth revisiting. Unchecked consumption is inherently harmful on a planet with finite resources. As I said above, there's nothing _wrong_ with buying or doing whatever you want - as the saying goes, there is no etihcal consumption under capitalism. It's logically and materially impossible. But the overall direction of your choices, actions and expressed opinions still matter, and from your arguments here it seems like you're perfectly fine with a world of increased exploitation, increasingly massive wealth gaps, increased precarity, continued material overconsumption, and more.


wolf said:


> No, I'm not confusing them.
> 
> It's reconstruction, not upscaling, but I get where you're going with it.


"Reconstruction" is a bit of a misnomer too though. It's _speculative_ reconstruction - adding "back" detail that it _assumes_ was supposed to be there, based on a best-guess model trained on various images. These models can be _very _good, and can identify missing detail based on very small traces, but it's still a form of upscaling, as it starts with a lower resolution image and scales it to a higher resolution.


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## wolf (May 4, 2022)

Valantar said:


> "Reconstruction" is a bit of a misnomer too though. It's _speculative_ reconstruction - adding "back" detail that it _assumes_ was supposed to be there, based on a best-guess model trained on various images. These models can be _very _good, and can identify missing detail based on very small traces, but it's still a form of upscaling, as it starts with a lower resolution image and scales it to a higher resolution.


Not only those models, but viewport/pixel jittering and access to the historical buffer give it more information than simply taking a lower resolution image and scaling it to higher resolution, this is how it is able to excel at sub-pixel and very fine details, and as many reviewers have covered, those aspects can certainly be better than native.

I can fully agree the sort of 'end goal' here is what people would call upscaling, but the devil is in the details (huehue), and those details can and do take on a super sampled appearance.


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## Valantar (May 4, 2022)

wolf said:


> Not only those models, but viewport/pixel jittering and access to the historical buffer give it more information than simply taking a lower resolution image and scaling it to higher resolution, this is how it is able to excel at sub-pixel and very fine details, and as many reviewers have covered, those aspects can certainly be better than native.
> 
> I can fully agree the sort of 'end goal' here is what people would call upscaling, but the devil is in the details (huehue), and those details can and do take on a super sampled appearance.


Yep, this is absolutely true. But the base process is still an upscaling process, just upscaling + secret detail creation sauce. Motion vectors are a huge help in this, clearly, though it still won't overcome fundamental per-game issues like engines that cut various details and elements from a scene as render resolution is lowered. But in the best implementations, it can absolutely take on a quasi-supersampled look.

Ironically, DLAA might be more deserving of the DLSS name than DLSS is


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## nguyen (May 4, 2022)

ratirt said:


> Well, the education didn't give you a lot that's for sure. I guess you are losing arguments since you bring my GPU up. I didnt have a choice did I and I had to get one when during the pandemic where the shortage of the GPU's was astronomical. But I guess that is not important right?
> Please google what freedom is since you absolutely have no idea. The difference between you and me, I don't need to show off how much money I have and brag about how many famous people I know. You will always be from a 3rd world not because you don't have money but you don't have respect for it and other's without it.
> You are someone that will never understand. No matter how many schools and where you finish. Please google also what a hypocrite is because you call everyone that but that is you. You don't acknowledge any argument.
> It is not just about paying 2000USD. Why do you keep twisting words huh? derail everything people say? Read again and again until you understand. Didn't you have reading classes at the school?



I have never been contradictory in my argument and action, you did. So yeah, too bad you aren't fully aware of your hypocrisy, at least @Valantar accepts that he's by some degree.

Let me explain why you are a hypocrite, you have no problem spending a lot of money on GPU yourself, yet you denounce when more expensive GPU come out. It's like you only look up in contempt while never looking down. You feel belittled when other people spend more money on PC hobby than you, which is a worrying trait if you want to live a happy life.

For me I just happily play game, detached from the massive inequality that exist in my society .



Valantar said:


> Apparently I missed this part, but this is precisely how you're missing the point. Nobody is arguing that "paying X for a GPU is bad per se, paying Y would be good". That is a pure-bred straw man argument, neither more nor less. You're attempting to simplify the arguments presented, but instead you're twisting them into something literally nobody has argued either for or against in this thread. We're talking about the _effects of the existence of consumer GPUs at these price points_, long term, on things like how accessible PC gaming is, its overall value proposition, how it affects the people who care about it, how much they have to sacrifice for it, how much they are being exploited by corporations, etc. And, to simplify things (as you apparently have a strong desire for that), IMO the ever-increasing price ceiling of consumer GPUs will affect every single one of those aspects negatively -* less accessible*, lower value, more stressful and requiring more significant sacrifices, more exploitation. And for what? For a small segment of relatively wealthy and privileged people to have _even fancier_ GPUs. As I have argued above, there is good reason to expect this top-end price development to have knock-on effects for mainstream and even low-end GPUs. Which will hurt essentially everybody.



Hm, we have more than enough gaming GPU for everyone on earth already, why do you think more people should have more GPUs, leading to more e-waste?

You are denoucing one aspect of capitalism while encourage the other: over consumption, that's why I brought out the 6500XT/6400 example.

If next gen GPUs are overpriced, what's to stop people from buying used GPU? Do you think buying used GPU is a sin or something   .

Like I said many times now, if next gen don't bring any benefit in efficiency and price to performance, there is no reason to buy them, just look away. Nvidia and AMD will get the memo, they need customers, we don't need them.

In short, fighting for more accessible gaming GPU is just useless endeavour, completely meaningless IMO. Gaming is a luxury, not a necessity.


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## ratirt (May 4, 2022)

nguyen said:


> I have never been contradictory in my argument and action, you did. So yeah, too bad you aren't fully aware of your hypocrisy, at least @Valantar accepts that he's by some degree.
> 
> Let me explain why you are a hypocrite, you have no problem spending a lot of money on GPU yourself, yet you denounce when more expensive GPU come out. It's like you only look up in contempt while never looking down. You feel belittled when other people spend more money on PC hobby than you, which is a worrying trait if you want to live a happy life.
> 
> For me I just happily play game, detached from the massive inequality that exist in my society .


You are doing it again. Twist what i said. I never said you contradict your arguments you literally do not take anyone else's arguments in the conversation and you claim that I'm accusing you of contradiction to your statements and you keep calling people hypocrites while you are one. You have a proof in your statement twisting what people said and what opinions they have been putting so you can see their point of view. Just because I bought a 6900XT in a pandemic and shortages, because I didnt have a choice, but I still don't like the pricing and where it leads too, makes me a hypocrite? For the last time google what a hypocritical person means.
I don't need your explanations. Focus on the topic.
If you only want to play your games then play games and stop calling people hypocrites because they disagree with your vision of GPUs pricing and what it already does. You have the dough? Great, buy a card, go play games.

Still price gauging of the GPUs pricing no matter what the perf/$ is, is going to diminish the better value of the entry and mid range cards since the price for those will triple and it already did. How is anyone OK with it except you? Just because you have cash it is ok? Well news flash buddy. If this is going to keep up than you will need more lucrative job as well so do not celebrate yet. Or do celebrate while you still can


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## nguyen (May 4, 2022)

ratirt said:


> You are doing it again. Twist what i said. I never said you contradict your arguments you literally do not take anyone else's arguments in the conversation and you claim that I'm accusing you of contradiction to your statements and you keep calling people hypocrites while you are one. You have a proof in your statement twisting what people said and what opinions they have been putting so you can see their point of view. Just because I bought a 6900XT in a pandemic and shortages, because I didnt have a choice, but I still don't like the pricing and where it leads too, makes me a hypocrite? For the last time google what a hypocritical person means.
> I don't need your explanations. Focus on the topic.
> If you only want to play your games then play games and stop calling people hypocrites because they disagree with your vision of GPUs pricing and what it already does. You have the dough? Great, buy a card, go play games.
> 
> Still price gauging of the GPUs pricing no matter what the perf/$ is, is going to diminish the better value of the entry and mid range cards since the price for those will triple and it already did. How is anyone OK with it except you? Just because you have cash it is ok? Well news flash buddy. If this is going to keep up than you will need more lucrative job as well so do not celebrate yet. Or do celebrate while you still can



Sorry but what was the topic again? I thought this thread was about the 3090 Ti, not about the dark future of PC gaming that you and some others are dreaming of .

IMO 3090 Ti is a crappy GPU for 2000usd, hopefully Nvida get it right with their next 2000usd GPU. End of discussion.


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## Valantar (May 4, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Hm, we have more than enough gaming GPU for everyone on earth already, why do you think more people should have more GPUs, leading to more e-waste?
> 
> You are denoucing one aspect of capitalism while encourage the other: over consumption, that's why I brought out the 6500XT/6400 example.
> 
> ...


Wait, what? I am explicitly arguing _against_ overconsumption. On several levels, even. If you're reading what I'm saying as if I'm reading for "more people having more GPUs", you're misreading what I'm saying. More equal access to beneficial hobbies and pastimes, such as gaming, is generally beneficial, yes, and is an argument for democratizing access to gaming-capable computers in general. That amounts to a public good. So I'm arguing (although indirectly - there are more ways to game than by having a dGPU) for more people having access to GPUs, but not more people having _more_ GPUs like you put it, as that strongly implies rapid replacement rates for said GPUs as well. I'm a strong proponent of keeping hardware in service as long as possible, which is also reflected in my own hardware choices - as I said before, my previous GPU was a Fury X, bought in 2015, and while I've done a relatively rapid system upgrade now (4 years, 2017 to 2021), my previous CPU and motherboard lasted me nearly a decade, from late 2008 to mid 2017, and I generally always advise against upgrading unless actually necessary (and if necessary, upgrading selectively and critically).

As for how this ties back into the 3090 Ti and its pricing: the knock-on effect of higher flagship prices pulling low-end and midrange pricing up will make gaming less accessible. This might have the unintended side effect of people keeping their GPUs for longer as they can't afford to upgrade, but that's both impossible to control and at best an indirect benefit of a larger harm. Relegating gaming to only the wealthy is not beneficial in any way - not to players, not to the game industry, not to gaming as a cultural phenomenon. And, of course, the potential cut in consumption from unaffordable lower end GPUs is likely offset by the increased prestige in higher end GPUs, leading to higher replacement rates among a larger wealthy audience (which we've already seen alongside the growth of gaming as a more broad-reaching activity). And, crucually, while many enthusiasts will sell or give their used GPUs to someone who will use them, massive amounts of fully usable, still decently performing hardware is discarded every year. More status and prestige surrounding high end hardware will only accelerate this, as the reverse of this will always be negative sentiments surrounding hardware perceived as out-of-date, even if these are rarely expressed. (Though looking around these forums, you won't have to look much to find these sentiments.)

I've never said anything against buying used GPUs whatsoever - I think a more active used hardware market is something PC gaming needs. But what stops people from buying used GPUs is, typically, the prevalence of scams, insecurity around hardware longevity, lack of warranties, lack of protections against scams or unscrupulous sellers, lack of knowledge, lack of maintenance skills, and of course the massive hype and status surrounding new hardware. IMO, anyone buying used rather than new hardware is doing the world a favor.

As for the "if next gen don't bring any benefit in efficiency and price to performance, there is no reason to buy them, just look away" - as has been pointed out plenty of times earlier in this thread, that's nothing more than a cop-out. The hype around new products is essentially always sufficient to ensure sales, as long as they aren't complete trash. And you don't need improvements in either efficiency or price/perf as long as absolute performance is higher and there are people with more money than sense out there - which is why the rumors of 600+W flagships are so scary. Of course, that's also part of what I think Nvidia is doing with the 3090 Ti (and, to some extent, was doing with the 3090) - readying the ground for a "better value" 4090 Ti by producing a predecessor that is such abominably bad value that it's laughable. Anything can be made to look good with sufficient planning.

As for that elitist spiel you end your post with: whether something is a "luxury" or a necessity is extremely dependent on context, and immensely variable, outside of basic needs like food and shelter. Nobody _needs_ to game, but then nobody _needs_ mechanised transportation either. Nobody _needs _electric lighting. Whatever your cut-off point for "luxury" is, it will always necessarily be arbitrary, making it a slippery slope towards ever-increasing demarcation of what other people don't deserve because it's a "luxury". IDGAF whether you think gaming is a "luxury" - what you're saying here is that you believe that you have the right to modes of enjoyment in life that others don't. That is an explicitly harmful stance, and of course a deeply unegalitarian one. In short: elitist. You're welcome to believe that your circumstances have somehow given you the right to enjoy life in ways that others don't, but that belief will always be predicated upon some deeply flawed and harmful logic.


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## nguyen (May 4, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Wait, what? I am explicitly arguing _against_ overconsumption. On several levels, even. If you're reading what I'm saying as if I'm reading for "more people having more GPUs", you're misreading what I'm saying. More equal access to beneficial hobbies and pastimes, such as gaming, is generally beneficial, yes, and is an argument for democratizing access to gaming-capable computers in general. That amounts to a public good. So I'm arguing (although indirectly - there are more ways to game than by having a dGPU) for more people having access to GPUs, but not more people having _more_ GPUs like you put it, as that strongly implies rapid replacement rates for said GPUs as well. I'm a strong proponent of keeping hardware in service as long as possible, which is also reflected in my own hardware choices - as I said before, my previous GPU was a Fury X, bought in 2015, and while I've done a relatively rapid system upgrade now (4 years, 2017 to 2021), my previous CPU and motherboard lasted me nearly a decade, from late 2008 to mid 2017, and I generally always advise against upgrading unless actually necessary (and if necessary, upgrading selectively and critically).
> 
> As for how this ties back into the 3090 Ti and its pricing: the knock-on effect of higher flagship prices pulling low-end and midrange pricing up will make gaming less accessible. This might have the unintended side effect of people keeping their GPUs for longer as they can't afford to upgrade, but that's both impossible to control and at best an indirect benefit of a larger harm. Relegating gaming to only the wealthy is not beneficial in any way - not to players, not to the game industry, not to gaming as a cultural phenomenon. And, of course, the potential cut in consumption from unaffordable lower end GPUs is likely offset by the increased prestige in higher end GPUs, leading to higher replacement rates among a larger wealthy audience (which we've already seen alongside the growth of gaming as a more broad-reaching activity). And, crucually, while many enthusiasts will sell or give their used GPUs to someone who will use them, massive amounts of fully usable, still decently performing hardware is discarded every year. More status and prestige surrounding high end hardware will only accelerate this, as the reverse of this will always be negative sentiments surrounding hardware perceived as out-of-date, even if these are rarely expressed. (Though looking around these forums, you won't have to look much to find these sentiments.)
> 
> ...



I gave all my used stuff to my relatives and only keep one PC and one laptop, so yeah i also try to avoid over-consuming to keep my mind sane.  

I think TPU reviews and some others are more than detailed enough to educate potential buyers about the pro and con of any new GPU, so you are refering to unrelated and uninformed crowds outside of the tech circle that buy GPU based on hype.

Anyways it has been fun and refreshing arguing with you, but yeah maybe I should come back to playing games now , have fun.


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## Chrispy_ (May 4, 2022)

wolf said:


> DLSS excels at sub-pixel detail, it's strengths are often in 1 pixel wide details. You talk with a lot of authority about it, but from what I can see that authority is somewhat misplaced.
> 
> In any case, I think that probably does it for me, I don't see this conversation continuing and benefitting either of us, as I neither require nor desire your spurious explanations, and I doubt you'll legitimately take on board anything I have to say about it.


Fundamentally, I don't think we disagree at all. We're both aware of what DLSS can and can't do - whether it provides great image quality or unsatisfactory image quality depends an awful lot on the version of DLSS used, the implementation of DLSS for the game in question, and to a great extent the scene at that particular moment, because DLSS is a _compromise_ that generates excellent, native (and occasionally better-than-native) detail for _some_ things whilst adding motion artifacts and failing to always hide the true, lower, rendering resolution for other things. It's not always universally better or worse, it's situational and at least we have the choice to enable or disable it based on personal preferences.

Desperately trying to get back on topic, DLSS is fancy upscaling that *can* make a game unplayable at 4K look pretty close to 4K. If you can't afford a $2000 GPU there's a lot to be said for buying a $500-600GPU and just using DLSS or FXAA to get you the playable framerates at 4K in that small handful of games that a current-gen $500-600 GPU at 4K won't handle acceptably at 4K native.


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## tussinman (May 4, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Not gonna happen, the market is gonna get saturated with old Ampere GPU soon enough that in order to sell new GPU, both AMD and Nvidia have to make the new gen more appetizing: higher efficiency, better price to performance.


I don't think it will have as much of an effect as you think it will.

New PC owners won't risk it (no warranty, limited places to buy, reputation for the used market isn't great)

More enthuasist people like us will logically skip it because we were active in the community summer of 2014 and summer of 2018 so we all saw first hand the backlash that happened the last 2 times used crypto cards flooded the markets (bricked and artificating cards being send out by the hundreds of thousands).


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## wolf (May 5, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Fundamentally, I don't think we disagree at all.....


Perhaps I had you mistaken, that paragraph was fairly agreeable


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## Joe90sw (Nov 1, 2022)

I know this is an old post but I drive a £55k bmw. Bmw do a near £90k version of my car. The performance of the M3 isn't 70% better than mine and certainly to 60mph the rwd m3 is actually slower than my 4wd. Either way, you can only go so fast on the road anyway and nearly all people that buy the m3 don't get near its potential, so one could ask why do people pay this money for it when you could have my version and get where you're going in the same time with practically the same interior lay out.
Point is, these things do exist and people do but them. You all got too hung up on the price thing in this discussion board.


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## Mussels (Nov 2, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Desperately trying to get back on topic, DLSS is fancy upscaling that *can* make a game unplayable


DLSS auto/quality can look so close to native when done right, that you just get free FPS for nothing.

Deep rock galactic is like this, where the only time it's visible in certain computer screen displays in the pre-game lobby area (the space rig) - in mission, you cant tell at all and get a good 30% speed boost


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