# Speaker cable length / degradation?



## twicksisted (Jan 27, 2012)

I have just bought some Wharfdale Xarus 5000 floorstanding speakers for my lounge.
I have an onkyo TX-SR308 in my projector room opposite the lounge running a tannoy 5.1 system.

This onkyo has a secondary speaker output zone that can drive another stereo pair of speakers, so I want to get some speaker wire to attach the lounge speakers to it. 

The distance between the two rooms would mean that I would need a maximum of 25metres (per speaker) of speaker cable to connect them up. I was thinking of buying this cable as its cheap enough but wanted to make sure that this was a good idea before I bought it and that I wasnt putting the amp at risk running such long lengths of cheap cable: http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B003CZD3I6/?tag=tec053-21


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 27, 2012)

Have a look at this- http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=48417


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## AsRock (Jan 27, 2012)

Should be ok.. See if Maplin has some 14-16G wire,  how ever i believe your on about zone 2 which i believe disables the sound in the other room when zone 2 is active.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 28, 2012)

Not sure what gauge that wire is but pretty much any oxygen free cable is gonna be fine, i would go for 10g/12g though as you're doing a lengthy run 25m = 75ft

I use Canare 4s11 in my main system (currently 5.2) and 12g Rocketfish for my analogue system, yes i play's record's 

You can check out avs.com or audiokarma.com both great audio forum's


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## twicksisted (Jan 28, 2012)

another question... the onkyo amp only has push spring tabs for the zone two speakers... would 10-12guage wire fit in this type of connection?










AsRock said:


> Should be ok.. See if Maplin has some 14-16G wire,  how ever i believe your on about zone 2 which i believe disables the sound in the other room when zone 2 is active.



Yeah thats not a problem, I will only be in one room at a time, dont need music playing in both rooms simultaneously. I only really use the 5.1 system when im watching movies on the projector.
At some point ill upgrade the onkyo to something bigger in their range but at this point its just after xmas and ive upgraded both my rigs recently to sandybridge, not much funds left for toys


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## AsRock (Jan 28, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> another question... the onkyo amp only has push spring tabs for the zone two speakers... would 10-12guage wire fit in this type of connection?
> 
> http://hifibest.com/wp-content/uplo...308-5.1-Channel-Home-Cinema-Receiver-Rear.jpg
> 
> ...



Ooh, i did not mean you needed to upgrade ..  Well just thought i say is all just in case that's what you were planing..

And yes be careful of how think the wire it as you said it might not fit..  You checked the manual if that says how thick it can or even if you know the what G your current wire is how much thinker it can be.

At a guess 14G be pushing it.


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## BumbleBee (Jan 28, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> another question... the onkyo amp only has push spring tabs for the zone two speakers... would 10-12guage wire fit in this type of connection?
> 
> http://hifibest.com/wp-content/uplo...308-5.1-Channel-Home-Cinema-Receiver-Rear.jpg
> 
> ...



go with 16 gauge.


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## twicksisted (Jan 28, 2012)

I been looking in the classifieds today and im very tempted with this offer:

NAD C320 BEE amplifier
NAD C521 BEE cd player 

The amp pushes continuous power of 50watt per channel at 8 ohms so should be plenty of juice for my 6 ohm Warfdale Xarus 5000 floorstanders for reasonable listening levels and I wouldnt have to run tonnes of cable around the house. (110W/160W/210W IHF dynamic power into 8/4/2 ohms )

Does anyone have any experience with this amp? what sort of price would you pay second hand for them both?


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## Frederik S (Jan 28, 2012)

It depends on the speakers, but normal quality speaker cable will be just fine for 25 meters.


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## AsRock (Jan 28, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> I been looking in the classifieds today and im very tempted with this offer:
> 
> NAD C320 BEE amplifier
> NAD C521 BEE cd player
> ...



I have had loads of amps and speakers over the years and for the most part they sounded different..  Although with A/V's i have noticed less differences.

Anyway if the NAD amps are any thing like how they used to be it probably has a forward in your face bass which tends to be fair tight and nice with faster music.  So less rumble and more punch.

I like their amps although i like so many different types of music. Only other i known with the same kinda in ya face sound was TEAC although other companys did some like Technics but they did so many different sounding amps..

But anyways yes NAD are good reliable company\brand and been around for many years..  And by that review of it they sound like the same deal.


Noticed this pic of it's insides lol..  And as far as i can tell it's 8ohm = 110w
http://www.videohifi.com/nad_c320_eng.htm


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## BlackOmega (Jan 28, 2012)

m1dg3t said:


> Not sure what gauge that wire is but pretty much any oxygen free cable is gonna be fine, i would go for 10g/12g though as you're doing a lengthy run *25m = 75ft*


It's actually 82ft. However I totally agree with you on the gauge of wiring. Any lengthy run like that needs to have as little resistance in the wire as possible. A good quality brand cable that 12awg would be more than sufficient. 


twicksisted said:


> another question... the onkyo amp only has push spring tabs for the zone two speakers... would 10-12guage wire fit in this type of connection?



 From the Onkyo's that I've had and used, 10 and 12 awg should fit with nary in issue. 

 Please note, that the more strands a cable has the better. More paths for the signal to travel. 

 When I used to build custom car audio systems (professionally), we'd almost always use 10 awg cable for the speakers. The cable had so many strands that it literally felt like human hair when you removed the insulation. We'd also use shielded cable to help protect signal integrity since cars have LOTS of interference potential all over the place.


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## micropage7 (Jan 28, 2012)

Frederik S said:


> It depends on the speakers, but normal quality speaker cable will be just fine for 25 meters.



yep, but keep in mind that shorter cable is better. every cable has its own resistance so the longer cable the bigger resistance you have so it would affect to power that arrive to speaker


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## jsfitz54 (Jan 28, 2012)

These are good for terminating ends,  Monster Cable:

http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=4583

http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=4582

You should *use 12ga CL2 rated cable* such as:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-FT-12-A...623?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46007d70e7

You will need to search UK for supplier.

*OFC* copper is best and *look at how many strands per conductor*...the more the better.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 28, 2012)

# of strand's is not always an indication of better cabling, there are MANY, MANY more factor's involved. Hell you could spend $5k+ on a set of cable's if you so desired lol 

O/P your Onkyo should easily handle a 12g if not 10g. Speaker wire's and ALL audio equipment for that matter is subjective as every single person has a different experience but generally for run's of that length you want a 12g minimum. Never had personal experience with NAD but they are a well respected name in the audio realm, check out www.avsforum.com, www.audiokarma.org and www.audiogon.com for plenty of info regarding all thing's audio.

Discussion on speaker cable's has led to MANY a flame war  Just KISS and run some OFC 12g you'll be glad you did and if you have solid jumper's on the back of your speak's ditch those in favour of some speaker cable 

PS Thinner gauge cable's (especially "budget" cable's) have higher resitance than thicker gauge for any given length and the longer the cable run the higher the resistance which lead's to a loss of sound. Which i think you would notice given your Wharfdale's and source. If not terminating your end's i'd highly reccomend soldering them to prevent oxidation and maintain cable integrity.


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## Frederik S (Jan 28, 2012)

Please keep in mind that 99% of cable companies out there sell you stuff you do not need. Quality termination and a correct gauge is enough for any normal speaker setup. Microphones, high-power speakers and that type of applications require more careful selection of wires. Normal high-end home speakers do not.   

Monster Cables produce a lot of cables that claim all sorts of improvements, like their HDMI cables. Personally I would never buy anything from that company solely based on their obvious scam-like marketing. 

If you are going for a set of high quality cables with good workmanship and quality termination you could check out http://www.bluejeanscable.com

12 gauge seems a bit on the thick size, but will definitely get the job done.


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## twicksisted (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for all of the advice in this thread 

I have just ordered 25 metres of 18AWG oxygen free copper cable, a Fisual Rio 30cm gold plated phono cable and am waiting on a NAD C320 BEE amplifier & NAD C521 BEE cd player that should hopefully arrive soon.






Yes, I spent money again and was trying to get away without doing that, but I think its for the best... this NAD amp and CD player should bring out the best in most speakers and should hopefully have enough grunt to push my Wharfdale Xarus 5000 floorstanders. (I have a feeling that the floorstanders will be the next upgrade to get something that will take advantage of the NAD amps quality!).

I think ill stay away from using the seperate zone on this Onkyo for simplicity sake.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 30, 2012)

Nice component's but way, way to small speaker cable. I hope it was a typo, sound WILL suffer.


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## twicksisted (Jan 30, 2012)

hmmm... no it wasnt a typo... i assumed that 18 was a larger number and therefore a larger strand count cable... oh well it was cheap enough, I'll buy some other cable then... is everyone agreed on 12 AWG then?


what do you guys make of this cable:
http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B0034KDG40/?tag=tec053-21

VAN DAMME 12 AWG ... sounds like a gun lol 

or this.. this looks good and easy to use, could be a bit short with the new amp but im not sure:
http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B0009PTHOG/?tag=tec053-21


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## m1dg3t (Jan 30, 2012)

Either of those will be MUCH better suited for your use but make sure you get the right length! As a minimum i would get a 14g cable if either of those can't be had in your required length. Speaker/electrical cable is funny the higher the # the thinner the cable, the lower the # the thicker the cable. The VanDamme look's like it may have separate ground's built in to help with "crosstalk"/induced distortion


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## twicksisted (Jan 30, 2012)

Cool, I have already ordered that thin 18 AWG stuff (25 metres of it lol, perhaps ill use that for my home theatre speakers as they just using flex!).

I'll test out the speakers with it and the lengths I need, then order some good quality van damme stuff later when i have the positioning right


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## BumbleBee (Jan 30, 2012)

m1dg3t said:


> Either of those will be MUCH better suited for your use but make sure you get the right length! As a minimum i would get a 14g cable if either of those can't be had in your required length. Speaker/electrical cable is funny the higher the # the thinner the cable, the lower the # the thicker the cable. The VanDamme look's like it may have separate ground's built in to help with "crosstalk"/induced distortion



I think it's filler to help with tension.


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## twicksisted (Jan 30, 2012)

Just got an email from the guy im buying the NAD stuff from, looks like I will have it in the next 48 hours 

Getting excited!


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## m1dg3t (Jan 30, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> I think it's filler to help with tension.



Could be, it's hard to tell from the pic



twicksisted said:


> Just got an email from the guy im buying the NAD stuff from, looks like I will have it in the next 48 hours
> 
> Getting excited!



Sweet!



twicksisted said:


> Cool, I have already ordered that thin 18 AWG stuff (25 metres of it lol, perhaps ill use that for my home theatre speakers as they just using flex!).
> 
> I'll test out the speakers with it and the lengths I need, then order some good quality van damme stuff later when i have the positioning right



See if you can cancel that order 18g is pretty much useless, honestly, unless it is EXTREMELY high quality cable. 16g is what i would suggest as a minimum for nothing more than 25ft run. Good idea on setting everything up first! Plus i forgot you were by-passing the zone2 Onkyo idea as you ended up going with the NAD separate's. If you keep the end's un-terminated i would suggest soldering them to prevent oxidization


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## BumbleBee (Jan 30, 2012)

looks like cotton with a black pvc jacket.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 30, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> looks like cotton with a black pvc jacket.



You got better eye's than me! That damn glaucoma, where's my med's


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## AsRock (Jan 30, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Thanks for all of the advice in this thread
> 
> I have just ordered 25 metres of 18AWG oxygen free copper cable, a Fisual Rio 30cm gold plated phono cable and am waiting on a NAD C320 BEE amplifier & NAD C521 BEE cd player that should hopefully arrive soon.
> 
> ...



Should check out some Tannoy speakers.. they will own wharfdales speakers lol.  but of course all sound is subjective and all..

Maybe check Richer Sounds and Superfi if there is one in london.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 30, 2012)

Tannoy and Wharfdale are both class, IMHO of course. i don't have the cash right now to upgrade my speaker's on any of my system's  Running 5.2 in the living room, 4ch Stereo on my vintage analogue, and 5.0 in my bedroom and one more vintage receiver in the closet lol


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## BumbleBee (Jan 30, 2012)

m1dg3t said:


> You got better eye's than me! That damn glaucoma, where's my med's



the material inside the jacket is bright white. cotton is often used as a filler. 







also the smaller gauge cables don't have it which tells me it's definitely filler because without it you would be able to do some nasty things to a cable that thick.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 30, 2012)

Is that the same cable BB? If so it is better than i expected! Has the foil shield, nice, nice


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## BumbleBee (Jan 30, 2012)

no it's not the same cable.

the cotton acts as a dampening material and the outer jacket probably helps fill in the gaps.


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## m1dg3t (Jan 31, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> the cotton acts as a dampening material and the outer jacket probably helps fill in the gaps.



Help's keep it flexible to, for when you get nasty with it


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## twicksisted (Jan 31, 2012)

AsRock said:


> Should check out some Tannoy speakers.. they will own wharfdales speakers lol.  but of course all sound is subjective and all..
> 
> Maybe check Richer Sounds and Superfi if there is one in london.



I had some really nice Tannoy Reveal studio monitors a few years back... I do like the sound of those speakers. These wharfdale Xarus 5000 were a swap I did last week for an old bluray player of mine. I'll see how i get along with them but i suspect that this NAD amp could do with much better quality speakers than these wharfdales, which appear to be made for high volume for cheap rather than quality. I do like the physical look of some real wood floorstanding speakers and will probably be looking at some KEF, Monitor Audio, Mission or DALI  Floorstanders to go in my lounge when I have more expendable money


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## AsRock (Jan 31, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> I had some really nice Tannoy Reveal studio monitors a few years back... I do like the sound of those speakers. These wharfdale Xarus 5000 were a swap I did last week for an old bluray player of mine. I'll see how i get along with them but i suspect that this NAD amp could do with much better quality speakers than these wharfdales, which appear to be made for high volume for cheap rather than quality. I do like the physical look of some real wood floorstanding speakers and will probably be looking at some KEF, Monitor Audio, Mission or DALI  Floorstanders to go in my lounge when I have more expendable money



I reallyy like Tannoy speakers as long as the tweeter is not built into the woofer. If you get new speekers try get some front ported ones as this will help to fill the room with bass greatly even more so with that NAD and might have to watch out for a thump in the chest lol.

KEF is another brand i like and been thinking about a pair of those to once they are on sale.
KEF C7 Floorstanding Speakers (Black Ash) Each

Mission i have liked them but make sure you try them in a shop 1st even more so if the have rubber done tweeters.

Audio monitor they using that see though plastic tweeter still dam things always blow on me although the sounded nice.. 



As for Deli thats a new one to me but i guess thats what happens when you live the country for over 10 years lol.


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## m1dg3t (Feb 4, 2012)

I auditioned those Kef's before getting my Polk's good all round speak, good mid - high blend but lacking low's IMO. Could just have been the setup, you know how it goes in brick/mortar shop's. Sometime's they don't get thing's optimal. Plus what my ear's like could be (probably is) different from what your ear's like, also we may have different taste's in music which further complicate's thing's  I still don't think you can go wrong with those Kef's 

Agreed regarding the Tannoy's, the one's with the massive driver's and separate tweet's are amazing SQ


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

the difference between front and rear ported speakers is minor. 

a front ported speaker will not fill the room with bass anymore than a rear ported speaker. I like rear ported speakers because they look better and you have more control positioning the speaker. front ported speakers don't have that option.


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

Hey BB that cable you linked earlier was that Furutech stuff? Overpriced kaka IMO.

I get my cable from http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/default.asp I do my own <Arnold voice> terminating </Arnold voice>


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

what cable?


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> http://www.audiyo.com/images/img_products/up2.jpg



This cable


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know. I grabbed it off of Google Images.


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

Goddamn Google! lol Look's to me like Furutech stuff anyways  There product's are notoriously overpriced, i wouldn't buy them with your money


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

um, okay. thanks?


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

In a bad mood today? Or did ya leave your sense of humor at home with your lunch? Turn that frown upside down!


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## AsRock (Feb 5, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> the difference between front and rear ported speakers is minor.
> 
> a front ported speaker will not fill the room with bass anymore than a rear ported speaker. I like rear ported speakers because they look better and you have more control positioning the speaker. front ported speakers don't have that option.



Although front ported if powerfull enough will give you more direct bass in fact if the speakers are made correctly the bass will move though you,  with bass coming from a rear port the effect is weakened much more.


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

if you say so...


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

Sealed cab's are best, promotoe the best attack/decay. These are generally used in higher end speak's as they use better driver's (woofer's/mid's/tweet's) better crossover's and better cabinet material's/design. Vented/ported cabinet's help in extending frequency range's, thereby increasing the "performance" of lesser quality gear, not shit gear just lesser quality. Basically port's/vent's give you the ability to increase low range freq (Hz) from a given speak without using the best component's. Just my opinion's of course 

The debate between front port/rear port is dependant upon room placement/setup, in some situation's a front port would be more beneficial as opposed to a rear port and vice versa. Audio is a lovely hobby


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

Jesus Christ you guys don't know what you're talking about.


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> Jesus Christ you guys don't know what you're talking about.



That's what they told me before they gave me a raise!


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## BumbleBee (Feb 5, 2012)

Furutech makes some of the best cables in the world. expensive yes, "kaka" no.

AsRock and his magic bass


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## m1dg3t (Feb 5, 2012)

I can get the same performance from a myriad of other cable mfg's at a fraction of the price, that, in my book's make them kaka. people who use there stuff are compensating for something. There is a point of diminishing return's.


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## AsRock (Feb 6, 2012)

BumbleBee said:


> Furutech makes some of the best cables in the world. expensive yes, "kaka" no.
> 
> AsRock and his magic bass



OMG, tunes like this have the traveling bass i am on about.. IF the bass is tight enough the bass will move though the room with a good quality pair of speakers..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wt1nvsoKno


Because you never had a pair of speakers that could project a good stereo sound  with out the need  of a sub aint my fault.

Tell you one thing for sure speakers are not made 1/2 as good as they used to be mainly since most relay on surround speakers and subs and the speakers are getting smaller too.


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## m1dg3t (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank's! Nice classic tune 

Here's one for ya Asrock:


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## twicksisted (Feb 24, 2012)

Just an update...

Finally my NAD C320BEE amplifier & C521BEE CD Player have arrived 
They sound awesome with the wharfdale Xarus 5000 floorstanders and I had nothing to worry about as this amp more than drives them way above any sane levels I'll ever set them at normally.

In the end I got two 5m Van Damme speaker cables terminated with some gold banana plugs and a high spec Fisual gold plated interconnect for the CD to amp connection. I'm a very happy man with the result!

I'm in the process of buying another house and not sure exactely when my moving day is but cant wait to finally set this all up in my new lounge. It has a much better layout to the room im using them in now which is actually my home office. The layout is bad and its full of shelving for stock and other junk... I think in the new lounge the speakers will sound a lot different and have legroom. only a few more weeks to go


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## BumbleBee (Feb 24, 2012)

good to hear


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## AsRock (Feb 24, 2012)

twicksisted said:


> Just an update...
> 
> Finally my NAD C320BEE amplifier & C521BEE CD Player have arrived
> They sound awesome with the wharfdale Xarus 5000 floorstanders and I had nothing to worry about as this amp more than drives them way above any sane levels I'll ever set them at normally.
> ...



Thanks for the update,  and happy you like it..  Those NAD's know how to dish out bass that's for sure..


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## twicksisted (Feb 24, 2012)

Rediscovering my love of music again. Spent the last 6 years working in the music industry and being bombarded with music that I diddnt neccessarily want to listen to all day long.
I never listened to music at home because of this and only started working with music as I loved it so much, what a catch 22 lol. Been out of it for about a year and its definately good to have decent sound and time to listen to stuff that I want to hear


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## m1dg3t (Mar 2, 2012)

Right on! Glad you're enjoying everything, you have a nice lil' setup there and it should last you quite a while  Not sure how much of an interest it is to you but you may want to add a TT in the future and spin some vinyl  I love vinyl 

I know what you mean about music, it's all so shitty these day's! You really have to look for the good stuff otherwise it's all the same auto tuned pop crap 

Congratulation's on the new house and good luck with your move! I'd offer to help but i think i'm on the wrong side of the pond?


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## twicksisted (Mar 2, 2012)

For sure! I used to DJ with vinyl back in the day... I've been looking at some turntables on the local classifieds but since I moved to the UK I dont have my vinyl collection anymore and I'd like to get a quality deck with a decent tonearm, cartridge and stylis which seems hard to come by!

I wouldnt mind getting some tunes on wax again


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## twicksisted (Mar 6, 2012)

UPDATE:

These Wharfdale Xarus 5000 speakers are huge! Much larger than normal floorstanders with a tweeter, 5.25" midrange & two 5.25" bass cones. The results when seated directly on my wooden floor is way too much bass. 
Dont get me wrong, I like bass but with this system i'd rather get a more natural & neutral sound (If I want to hear overloaded bass I have my onkyo / wharfdale 5.1 surround system with a seperate subwoofer to play music on in the other room 

The solution:

I bought some "Atacama Speaker Stand Gel Isolation Pads" for £5.99 on amazon and stuck them to the bottom of the speaker cabinets to isolate them from the wooden floor.
I was a bit dubious as to how much it would improve things but wow what a difference!
The overall sound is so much sharper and cleaner!!! Previously i couldnt turn thre volume up past a quarter as it was way too boomy and now I can go up to half way (just before my ears bleed) and get clean accurate bass! very happy.

Still havent moved into my new house yet but that also has solid oak wooden flooring so should sound the same and probably better as the room will be much larger and more suited to these beastly speakers


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## m1dg3t (Mar 8, 2012)

A lot of great table's to be had for less than $1k brand new and even less if sought on the 2nd hand market  Vinyl is making a comeback and new pressing's are constantly coming out as well as original pressing's finding their way into the "used" market, i'm up to about 300 title's with the majority being previously enjoyed, about 75/25 ratio of old > new  My TT was scored 2nd hand and i have modified it to improve it's sonic's and TBH for what i have invested in it i am pleased, my RCM (record cleaning machine) cost more than my TT with mod's! lol

Rega, Project, MusicHall, ClearAudio (to name a few) all make great product's for the price and most of them include the stylus/cartridge so it's just a plug & play thing! Going vintage can save you some scratch but be prepared for anything because of that, i went 2nd hand vintage and have been lucky so far  

It's amazing the effect the enviroment can have on sound reproduction! Glad you found an economical AND effective "fix" for your system  My Polk's have something similar on the bottom of their feet, not silicone but still, i would however like to spike the feet but i can't justify the cost of the disc's ATM  I have the spike's, but a set of disc's is like $40/speaker


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