# German police are chasing buyers of cheap Windows 10 licenses



## P4-630 (Mar 1, 2021)

_There are numerous websites where relatively inexpensive license keys can be purchased for, for example, Microsoft Windows 10.
For a fraction of the suggested retail price, you can obtain a valid license. However, the source of the keys is often dubious or illegal.

According to sources, the German police will actively approach buyers of cheap license keys in hopes of accusing them of money laundering and copyright infringement.
Although the German authorities have not provided confirmation, several users have reportedly confirmed that they received similar subpoenas from the police after purchasing cheap Windows 10 product keys online from various websites. Some say the keys were bought many years ago, so it's not clear yet what the police will do with this new campaign.

For now, however, it's important to deal with this information with a fair amount of skepticism, especially since it's all based on reporting with no official statement about it._









						Duitse politie gaat achter kopers aan van goedkope Windows 10-licenties
					

Er zijn tal van websites waar relatief goedkope licentiesleutels kunnen worden aangeschaft voor bijvoorbeeld Microsoft Windows 10. Voor een fractie van...




					nl.hardware.info
				











						Windows 10 Lizenzkeys: Staatsanwaltschaften verschicken Vorladungen
					

Noch immer erhalten Käufer von unseriösen Windows 10 Lizenzkeys von eBay & Co. Vorladungen für eine Aussage bei der örtlichen Polizei.




					tarnkappe.info
				











						Windows 10: Käufer von Billig-Keys werden zur Polizei vorgeladen
					

Es ist verlockend, wenn man für Windows nicht mehr als 100 Euro bezahlt, sondern sich auf eBay und Co. für einen Bruchteil davon einen Key holen kann. Doch die Quelle dieser Lizenzen ist meist dubios bis illegal und immer wieder ein Fall für die Staatsanwaltschaft.




					winfuture.de


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 1, 2021)

LOL WUT
i always though these keys where just bulk bought oem keys
Also i have never understod the "go after the people who bought the keys"
over go after the people who sell the keys


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 1, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Also i have never understod the "go after the people who bought the keys"
> over go after the people who see the keys


While I agree they need to go after the sellers, the problem is, most of the sellers are in China, Russia or some other country where the German police can't touch them. So the hope is, if they stop people from buying, it will force the sellers out of business. 

But it is a two-way street. These buyers know something ain't right when the prices are too good to be true. They just can't get away with saying they didn't know they weren't legit.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Mar 1, 2021)

I'd bet its more about the copyright infringement than the money laundering, something they likely tacked on to make it a more scarey thing.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 1, 2021)

meanwhile. down under


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## Caring1 (Mar 1, 2021)

Sounds like a scam, send us $500 and we won't charge you lol.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Mar 1, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Sounds like a scam, send us $500 and we won't charge you lol.


That's right, send me $500 and I wont blackmail you by not telling people what you didn't do to deserve it.


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## jboydgolfer (Mar 1, 2021)

might get some of their suspects from that scammy Goodoffer24 totally 'legit' windows licenses


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## GerKNG (Mar 1, 2021)

i am German and i checked the articles out.

basically it's an attempt to generate some cash for the state.
people are getting invites to "Self inflict"? (not sure if that's correct) and get sued for supporting money laundry. 

never heard something like that until i saw this post here. 

Ebay in Germany starts to remove every Windows Key offer as i can see right now. 

i don't think that it is anything serious tbh.


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## StrayKAT (Mar 1, 2021)

Must suck being the cop assigned to this.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Mar 1, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> i am German and i checked the articles out.
> 
> basically it's an attempt to generate some cash for the state.
> people are getting invites to "Self inflict"? (not sure if that's correct) and get sued for supporting money laundry.
> ...


They're expecting citizens to hand themselves in with proof to be sued.

Wtafffff.


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## GerKNG (Mar 1, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> They're expecting citizens to hand themselves in with proof to be sued.
> 
> Wtafffff.


yeah... kinda.  

it's basically just BS. when you get a letter to come to the local police station you just call them and say.. no thanks. in 99/100 cases you're done with it.
on the other side.

we had a similar "wave" of " you visited a streaming website that includes illegal streams of copyright protected content, pay 2000€.
throw the letter away and that's it.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 1, 2021)

i legit always tho


Bill_Bright said:


> While I agree they need to go after the sellers, the problem is, most of the sellers are in China, Russia or some other country where the German police can't touch them. So the hope is, if they stop people from buying, it will force the sellers out of business.
> 
> But it is a two-way street. These buyers know something ain't right when the prices are too good to be true. They just can't get away with saying they didn't know they weren't legit.


ught it was oem keys
My cheap key i bought in person off a freind
Dell gave it to them


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## StrayKAT (Mar 1, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> Must suck being the cop assigned to this.


I take this back, on second thought. Maybe these are single digit IQ guys off the street and they enjoy threatening non-violent "criminals". I mean, who willingly asks people to come to their station and present all of this tedious "proof" and paperwork. Why would you willingly put yourself through this unless you were already a loser that wanted an easy job?


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 1, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> basically it's an attempt to generate some cash for the state.
> people are getting invites to "Self inflict"? (not sure if that's correct) and get sued for supporting money laundry.


Nah!

That's not money laundering!

Money laundering is when you get rid of "cash" money you have already received through illegal activities - like selling drugs or stolen goods. You have to get rid of "launder" all that cash or risk getting the attention of the tax police. 



Isaac` said:


> ught it was oem keys



That does not mean anything. I buy OEM keys a lot. That just means it was purchased with the intent of being installed on specific hardware, and that license is meant to stay with that "o"riginal "e"quipment. And I typically pay around $100 - $130 for each license, not a few bucks. 

These illegal and unauthorized "too good to be true" keys are typically from "volume" licenses - where a company buys 1000 (for example) volume license, uses 500, then sells the other 500 to someone who sells the rest individually. That is illegal - or at least in violation of the terms of the license. Individual keys are not allowed to be broken out of volume licenses.


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## Fluffmeister (Mar 1, 2021)

Stupid, now jab the over 65's with the AZ vaccine you clowns.


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## GerKNG (Mar 1, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Nah!
> 
> That's not money laundering!
> 
> Money laundering is when you get rid of "cash" money you have already received through illegal activities - like selling drugs or stolen goods. You have to get rid of "launder" all that cash or risk getting the attention of the tax police.


Der Verdacht lautet auf leichtfertige Geldwäsche nebst strafbarer Urheberrechtsverletzungen, derer er sich schuldig gemacht haben soll. Er soll dazu eine Aussage machen, sich also selbst belasten.


The suspicion is of frivolous money laundering along with criminal copyright infringements, of which he is said to have been guilty. He should make a statement about this, that is, incriminate himself.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 1, 2021)

I DONT understand how buying a cheap windows key is money laundering



GerKNG said:


> The suspicion is of frivolous money laundering along with criminal copyright infringements, of which he is said to have been guilty. He should make a statement about this, that is, incriminate himself.i


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## StrayKAT (Mar 1, 2021)

This is still not as pathetic as UK's fapping license. I've been accused of being a prude myself, but come on.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 1, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> _There are numerous websites where relatively inexpensive license keys can be purchased for, for example, Microsoft Windows 10.
> For a fraction of the suggested retail price, you can obtain a valid license. However, the source of the keys is often dubious or illegal.
> 
> According to sources, the German police will actively approach buyers of cheap license keys in hopes of accusing them of money laundering and copyright infringement.
> ...


It should be noted, this is not Microsoft doing this. Microsoft has already stated they do not object to these keys being sold. This is German law enforcement acting poorly.


Isaac` said:


> I DONT understand how buying a cheap windows key is money laundering


It's not. There is no court OF JUSTICE anywhere in the world were such a purchase would be charged under money laundering criminal code and stand up to scrutiny. Then again, the German government(after decades of trying to suppress any mention of them) have begun to act like the NAZI order of the past. So who knows what twisted BS will happen there.



StrayKAT said:


> This is still not as pathetic as UK's fapping license.


Wait, is that a thing or are you just kidding?


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## StrayKAT (Mar 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wait, is that a thing or are you just kidding?


No.. It's basically a porn block that you apparently need to pay a "license" to get a key for on porn sites. I'm not sure how it could possibly work though. Sounds like a mess.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> t's not. There is no court OF JUSTICE anywhere in the world were such a purchase would be charged under money laundering criminal code and stand up to scrutiny. Then again, the German government(after decades of trying to suppress any mention of them) have begun to act like the NAZI order of the past. So who knows what twisted BS will happen there.


lol im kinda curioios if my windows key is kinda legit
I payed someone for a key that dell sent them cause they misunderstod the issue
It came on a peice of paper and everything


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## GerKNG (Mar 1, 2021)

you guys completely overthink stuff that does not even happen on your continent.

there is literally nothing except a post from a weird website and a case of ONE Person that said something in a telegram group.


i checked every single news website and there is not even a mention in that direction.


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## P4-630 (Mar 1, 2021)

What about


GerKNG said:


> Ebay in Germany starts to remove every Windows Key offer as i can see right now.


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## GerKNG (Mar 1, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> What about


well because they remove scams and shady offerings all the time. (and tbh i only checked the first page where almost all of them just lead to a "can't find what you're looking for" page.)

but now i see some 3€ windows 10 pro keys removed.

last week it was netflix vouchers, spotify codes and game keys.


they probably don't want to be the target since they are forced to act in this situation (even if it's just one person)

there are already new ones that are normally available.
even a few ones for less than 3 bucks.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 1, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> No.. It's basically a porn block that you apparently need to pay a "license" to get a key for on porn sites. I'm not sure how it could possibly work though. Sounds like a mess.


Doesn't seem all that likely to work..



GerKNG said:


> you guys completely overthink stuff that does not even happen on your continent.
> 
> there is literally nothing except a post from a weird website and a case of ONE Person that said something in a telegram group.
> 
> ...


To be fair, didn't actually look at the links as what was stated in the OP is not as bizarre as some of the other actions German government and law enforcement have been caught doing...


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## GerKNG (Mar 1, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Doesn't seem all that likely to work..
> 
> 
> To be fair, didn't actually look at the links as what was stated in the OP is not as bizarre as some of the other actions German government and law enforcement have been caught doing...


and that would be what?


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## qubit (Mar 1, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> _There are numerous websites where relatively inexpensive license keys can be purchased for, for example, Microsoft Windows 10.
> For a fraction of the suggested retail price, you can obtain a valid license. However, the source of the keys is often dubious or illegal.
> 
> According to sources, the German police will actively approach buyers of cheap license keys in hopes of accusing them of money laundering and copyright infringement.
> ...


And here's the precise reason why I don't buy any of these keys. I wanna be able to sleep at night without worrying that the copyright gestapo might come knocking at my door one day.

To clarify, I feel no sympathy for a faceless corporate behemoth like Microsoft that has more money than it knows what to do with, so it's not a morality issue for me, but I will look out for number one by steering clear of this.

Great post, thanks for putting it up.


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## Gmr_Chick (Mar 2, 2021)

When I built my Ryzen 5 1600 rig, we bought an OEM copy of Windows 10 from Central Computer for $99. Fast forward to last year when I built my 10700K rig. Tried using the same OEM W10 I had, and guess what? It wouldn't activate! So, I went to one of those key sites that TPU sponsors, bought a W10 Home key, linked it to my Microsoft account and it worked -- and still works now, with my 3600 rig, huzzah! 

Also, I'm curious about that program the Tech Yes Aussie was using to see which form of Windows 10 his keys were for. What is it?


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## StrayKAT (Mar 2, 2021)

Gmr_Chick said:


> When I built my Ryzen 5 1600 rig, we bought an OEM copy of Windows 10 from Central Computer for $99. Fast forward to last year when I built my 10700K rig. Tried using the same OEM W10 I had, and guess what? It wouldn't activate! So, I went to one of those key sites that TPU sponsors, bought a W10 Home key, linked it to my Microsoft account and it worked -- and still works now, with my 3600 rig, huzzah!
> 
> Also, I'm curious about that program the Tech Yes Aussie was using to see which form of Windows 10 his keys were for. What is it?


OEM is kind of a ripoff. It's tied to whatever hardware it's first installed on, I believe? The more expensive "retail" labeled version can be endlessly used.


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## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

I went OEM because I tend to keep my systems 5+ years.

Before going AM4 I was on socket 1366 for 10 years. So I don't change hardware enough for it to matter.

For those that change hardware alot I recommend going retail.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 2, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> I went OEM because I tend to keep my systems 5+ years.
> 
> Before going AM4 I was on socket 1366 for 10 years. So I don't change hardware enough for it to matter.
> 
> For those that change hardware alot I recommend going retail.


This is actually really good advice.



StrayKAT said:


> OEM is kind of a ripoff. It's tied to whatever hardware it's first installed on, I believe?


Sort of. While that is defined to a degree in the EULA, that part of the EULA has already been determined to be unlawful(in the USA) as it requires the surrender of statutory rights that no contract can lawfully require the surrender of. The part of the OEM EULA that is enforceable is that an OEM license can only be used on one PC at any given time. Simply put, you are well within your rights to use an OEM key on a PC you've done a platform upgrade to(mobo, cpu, ram) as long as you are using it for only that system.



StrayKAT said:


> The more expensive "retail" labeled version can be endlessly used.


This is true and what is not well known, it can be used on any PC you personally own. Again because individual rights supersede the terms of any EULA.


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## FireFox (Mar 2, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> For those that change hardware alot I recommend going retail.


There's always a way around for almost everything, i have reused my OEM license in 3 different Builds


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## freeagent (Mar 2, 2021)

I got mine for free straight from the source.. back when they were giving them away 

Crazy stuff man. I thought they were legit keys too.. I bought my copy of office from a site that advertises specials here..


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## StrayKAT (Mar 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is actually really good advice.
> 
> 
> Sort of. While that is defined to a degree in the EULA, that part of the EULA has already been determined to be unlawful(in the USA) as it requires the surrender of statutory rights that no contract can lawfully require the surrender of. The part of the OEM EULA that is enforceable is that an OEM license can only be used on one PC at any given time. Simply put, you are well within your rights to use an OEM key on a PC you've done a platform upgrade to(mobo, cpu, ram) as long as you are using it only that system.
> ...


Legal or not, the hassle is still there and I've been technically locked out of using the key again. Since I don't have lawyers to challenge it, OEM Windows might as well be worthless for me.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 2, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> Legal or not, the hassle is still there and I've been technically locked out of using the key again. Since I don't have lawyers to challenge it, OEM Windows might as well be worthless for me.


All you have to do is call Microsoft's phone activation center. I have never had them deny an activation for an OEM key. Ever. It takes all of 5 minutes to do.


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## StrayKAT (Mar 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> All you have to do is call Microsoft's phone activation center. I have never had them deny an activation for an OEM key. Ever. It takes all of 5 minutes to do.


It's Windows Home, and I've since moved on to Pro, so I haven't even bothered using it again. Maybe if I build some secondary machine I'll try again.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> All you have to do is call Microsoft's phone activation center. I have never had them deny an activation for an OEM key. Ever. It takes all of 5 minutes to do.


i had to call the microsoft line once
because my laptop had died and i had tried to bring windows across
backup and restore stlye and ofc it deactivated almost as soon as it booted
and even though it was a diffrent machine they reactivated for me


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## Khonjel (Mar 2, 2021)

Like I said before, just run Windows unactivated. Download the iso from the ESD thread here on TPU and just skip when it asks you to input the serial code. The watermark needs getting adjusted to but like everything that us buggy in W10, sometimes the watermark doesn't even show up.

I've been running unactivated for years at this point. You only lose some personalization and customization options.


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## StrayKAT (Mar 2, 2021)

Khonjel said:


> Like I said before, just run Windows unactivated. Download the iso from the ESD thread here on TPU and just skip when it asks you to input the serial code. The watermark needs getting adjusted to but like everything that us buggy in W10, sometimes the watermark doesn't even show up.
> 
> I've been running unactivated for years at this point. You only lose some personalization and customization options.


I've gotten too used to dark mode (you can't personalize unactivated windows), and actually like some things in their eco system (One Drive, Office, and Forza especially). But I'm probably a minority. Besides, if I'm not going to even use Windows to it's fullest, I'd just use Linux. I'd lose the MS games, but looks like I could get by with most other things. Lately I've been actually considering it, because billgates.exe has been reactivated. He's been acting like the same psychopathic Borg piece of shit he was in the 1990s.


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## sepheronx (Mar 2, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> This is still not as pathetic as UK's fapping license. I've been accused of being a prude myself, but come on.


I think I would be sent into the can for 20 - life if this law existed here.


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## StrayKAT (Mar 2, 2021)

sepheronx said:


> I think I would be sent into the can for 20 - life if this law existed here.


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## sepheronx (Mar 2, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> View attachment 190587


This is uh, my school project officer!  I am learning about the female anatomy and how babies are made.

And this is just a hot dog in my hand.

On serious note though, I remember watching the video by Bryan at TechYes where he verified that the keys are legit and that MS doesn't care.  So the German Police are being rather questionable on this.  I can understand the Ebay key listings though.

Don't they have real issues to worry about though?


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 2, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> you can't personalize unactivated windows


Yes you can, I do it all the time. I always set Windows up and config it just right before I activate. Windows has a 30day grace period. It's been that way since Vista.


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## Hardcore Games (Mar 2, 2021)

I have spoken to Microsoft about this and they are not worried about some peasant with a lower cost license than some big corporation that is not licensed properly

There are now over 1 billion using Windows 10 and many used windows 7 and 8 keys to upgrade with


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## R-T-B (Mar 2, 2021)

Microsoft indeed does not care anymore.

They stopped caring when Russia started selectively reporting certain groups to Microsoft so they could then sue them out of existence.  Funny, it was all opposition party and environmental watchdog groups though...

Turns out since basically everyone in Russia in this timeframe pirated windows, they were just reporting groups they did not like.  No evidence required, it would come later certainly.

Have a read:









						Russia Uses Microsoft to Suppress Dissent (Published 2010)
					

One of the authorities’ new tactics for quelling dissent in Russia is confiscating computers under the pretext of searching for pirated Microsoft software.




					www.nytimes.com
				




When microsoft realized they were being used this way and it looked awful, they stopped actually meddling in license affairs, largely.  Today if you hear a license case being prosecuted it is almost always overzealous police, rather than MS.


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## StrayKAT (Mar 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yes you can, I do it all the time. I always set Windows up and config it just right before I activate. Windows has a 30day grace period. It's been that way since Vista.


Wallpaper and everything is completely blocked out.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 2, 2021)

LOL

Right. Whats next, we get those yellow stars back from back when?! 



R-T-B said:


> Microsoft indeed does not care anymore.
> 
> They stopped caring when Russia started selectively reporting certain groups to Microsoft so they could then sue them out of existence.  Funny, it was all opposition party and environmental watchdog groups though...
> 
> ...



This.


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## birdie (Mar 2, 2021)

I won't be surprised if it's found out that the rumor was started by either Microsoft or one of its official resellers who noticed a dip in earnings.

There's no way the police can go ahead with these charges as they will be thrown out of the court immediately.


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## xtreemchaos (Mar 2, 2021)

i thought thay have done away with the you need to activate 30 day thingy cos its been over 3 months since i installed without a key and nothings come up and i downloaded this copy straight from MS and everythings working "touch wood".


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## TheLostSwede (Mar 2, 2021)

GerKNG said:


> we had a similar "wave" of " you visited a streaming website that includes illegal streams of copyright protected content, pay 2000€.
> throw the letter away and that's it.


There was some of that going on in Sweden too, albeit not from the police, but from "law firms", turns out it was illegal.


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## PooPipeBoy (Mar 2, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> i thought thay have done away with the you need to activate 30 day thingy cos its been over 3 months since i installed without a key and nothings come up and i downloaded this copy straight from MS and everythings working "touch wood".



Interesting, does it show up that "Windows is activated" in the My PC properties?


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## xtreemchaos (Mar 2, 2021)

im at home at the mo, i will check it out as soon as im at my workshop bud.


PooPipeBoy said:


> Interesting, does it show up that "Windows is activated


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## r9 (Mar 2, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> _There are numerous websites where relatively inexpensive license keys can be purchased for, for example, Microsoft Windows 10.
> For a fraction of the suggested retail price, you can obtain a valid license. However, the source of the keys is often dubious or illegal.
> 
> According to sources, the German police will actively approach buyers of cheap license keys in hopes of accusing them of money laundering and copyright infringement.
> ...


The fucking world we live in, let's not go after the product owner that didn't make it secure, let's not go after the companies who sell this, let's go after the end users.
You enter the fucking key MS says is valid everybody can go fuck themselves.


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## cyberloner (Mar 2, 2021)

all about the money


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## BSim500 (Mar 2, 2021)

Biggest problem with cheap keys is they can come from multiple sources (resold used OEM keys, resold unused OEM keys, stolen credit card purchased keys, KMS (Volume License) keys, cheap region keys, MSDN keys, etc), and there's zero way for the end user to tell what's legit and what isn't. Some can work for years without issue, others just a few months before suddenly throwing up a "Not genuine" deactivation message. MSDN developer keys can be activated on 10x PC's at once, but the seller will often resell the same key to 9x other people and all it takes is for one to activate on a 2nd (11th) PC, and all 10x people using the same key may suddenly be deactivated. KMS based keys may well activate from a server in China or be an former education key for a University that gets deactivated after 3-4 years.



StrayKAT said:


> Wallpaper and everything is completely blocked out.


It's possible to still change wallpaper even when inactivated by right-clicking directly on a .JPG file and clicking "Set as Desktop Background". However other things like certain taskbar / color personalization is indeed locked until activation.


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## FireFox (Mar 2, 2021)

cyberloner said:


> all about the money


Indeed, i live in Germany and see what is really happening


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It should be noted, this is not Microsoft doing this. Microsoft has already stated they do not object to these keys being sold.


 You are right that this is not Microsoft, but Microsoft never stated they do not object to these keys being sold this way - as far as I know, or can find. I've researched this extensively multiple times over the years - for myself, and as a consultant representing business (and government) clients. Got a link where Microsoft stated they don't object to this? I bet not.

In fact, when pressed, Microsoft will point you to the EULAs which state that volume license keys are to stay together, not sold separately. And then they try to push companies to "audited" versions - that is, where a company uses authorized auditing software that monitors and tracks how many licenses are being used, then pay based on that number. It is "dynamically" monitored - that is, if they hire 10 new people today and assign them 10 new Windows computers, they use 10 more keys and then are charged for those 10 more keys. If they fire 5 people tomorrow and and take those computers off-line and put them in storage, they pay for 5 less licenses.

Microsoft has taken the approach of just staying quiet about it for two reasons. (1) If they make a stink, the Microsoft haters and those who buy such "too-good-to-be-true" keys will start bad-mouthing Microsoft, calling them evil big brother, etc. etc. And bad press, even when undeserved, is not good for business. And (2), Microsoft does not want to bring attention to those cheep keys. Instead, they point potential buyers to the Microsoft Store and other "authorized" and "partner" sellers.

****

Just ask yourself, don't you think if those ultra cheap prices were totally legitimate that Newegg, Best Buy, Micro Center, B&H Photo and especially the cutthroat retailers Amazon and Walmart would get in on that action too? Contrary to what some claim, URCDKeys and Kinguin and others like them are NOT authorized Microsoft software resellers. Just because a retailer says they are, that does not mean they are.



Isaac` said:


> I DONT understand how buying a cheap windows key is money laundering


It's not. That was bad reported - or something lost in translation. It is closer to (but still not the same thing as) "receiving stolen goods", "bootlegging" software, or "software piracy" than it is to money laundering.



StrayKAT said:


> OEM is kind of a ripoff. It's tied to whatever hardware it's first installed on, I believe?


Its not a rip off. It is designed for "System Builders" to install on their systems they are selling. In fact, it is called "System Builder OEM" software. And yes, it is meant to stay with the "O"riginal "E"quipment. That's one reason why it costs less. The other reason it costs less is the System Builder assumes responsibility for support the first year. If you are the system builder, that's you. If not willing to assume support, don't build the system yourself, or buy the full retail license. Microsoft is giving us choices. That's a good thing. 

Then of course, there's Linux. 



Gmr_Chick said:


> When I built my Ryzen 5 1600 rig, we bought an OEM copy of Windows 10 from Central Computer for $99. Fast forward to last year when I built my 10700K rig. Tried using the same OEM W10 I had, and guess what? It wouldn't activate! So, I went to one of those key sites that TPU sponsors, bought a W10 Home key, linked it to my Microsoft account and it worked -- and still works now, with my 3600 rig, huzzah!


Well the fact is, you violated the terms of the license agreement (a binding contract, by the way) that you agreed to abide by when you first used that software with your R5 rig. With OEM software, you can legally upgrade all the hardware, except the motherboard since a new motherboard constitutes a new computer.

The fact the cheap 2nd key you used works does not mean it is an authorized used of that key, or that Microsoft approved it be used that way.


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## ThrashZone (Mar 2, 2021)

Hi,
Yeah microsoft doesn't care wish they would drop the prices at ms store to reflect that though 10 home and pro are stupid priced lol
Link to your ms account and you're the product they make money on.

I've used many cheap keys win-7 and 10 pro's in the last couple years 
I do not use a ms account though.


----------



## newtekie1 (Mar 2, 2021)

Wait! There were people that bought $12 Windows 10 licenses and actually thought they were legit? Wow, there really is a sucker born every minute.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

I don't think they are stupid prices. If you look back, Windows 95 had a suggested price of $209.99. And that was on top of the price you paid for DOS which was required to run W95.

Windows 10 Home from Microsoft is $139 - no DOS required.


----------



## DAWMan (Mar 2, 2021)

_M$oft website claims it’s a service and I downloaded from them for free.
Still running an offline 7 and 8.1 DAW. But Windows 10 Home upgrades itself in downtime hours.
Works great.
Is there an advantage to buying Windows as opposed to the free M$oft download?_


----------



## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> Wait! There were people that bought $12 Windows 10 licenses and actually thought they were legit? Wow, there really is a sucker born every minute.



Then I guess call me a sucker.









						Microsoft Windows 10 Pro OEM CD KEY GLOBAL, Buy Microsoft Windows 10 Pro OEM CD KEY GLOBAL in Urcdkeys
					

Buy Microsoft Windows 10 Pro OEM CD KEY GLOBAL at Urcdkeys with immediately delivery now. Full of stock, Fantastic Prices.




					www.urcdkeys.com
				




I paid $15.61 USD for Win 10 OEM

$36.50 USD for Win 10 Retail

And i've had no issues for years.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

Sucker is not the word I would use. 



Makaveli said:


> And i've had no issues for years.


But if you think that is the point, then perhaps sucker fits because that's the bet (bluff?) the seller is hoping you will buy into.


----------



## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Sucker is not the word I would use.
> 
> 
> But if you think that is the point, then perhaps sucker fits because that's the bet (bluff?) the seller is hoping you will buy into.



i've been using OEM keys now from 5+ years from that site and have not had a problem so again what is the issue?


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

For one, it appears you don't know what OEM means in terms of software licensing. 

For another, if you think there's no issue buying something at ridiculously low prices from someone who is not an authorized retailer, then that's the issue.


----------



## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> For one, it appears you don't know what OEM means in terms of software licensing.
> 
> For another, if you think there's no issue buying something at ridiculously low prices from someone who is not an authorized retailer, then that's the issue.



I'm well aware of what the OEM license is.

When MS rejects my Key which has never happened to me then maybe I will care.

No point crying over this to be honest. You want to pay full retail price for it knock yourself out. I will continue to buy the keys the way i've been doing so for years. And considering I don't live in Germany what they do there or think of it is irrelevant to me.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> No point crying over this to be honest.


"_Honest_"? What an ironic choice of words.


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 2, 2021)

Kinda reminds me of my happy college years. Back in a day we had surprise police raids, hunting for pirated software in educational institutions and private businesses. Just like this thing
Except, back in those days they could check S/N stickers, retail boxes, and store receipts. As sad as it sounds, at least it started to move things in the right direction (like factoring-in price of software into PC build BOM, or using legit software for legit business).
Nowadays checking such things is near impossiburu.
New laptops have Windows keys stored in firmware, and digital licenses make things more complicated (you can't do a "surprise" email or MS account check without breaking a few constitutional rights). 
Fool's errand. 

Funny, right now I'm catchin' myself on a ridiculous thought that it's easier for me to find my Windows 7/10 key by opening up a TXT file on my PC, than to look for MS email from 11 years ago or attempting to find it in the deepest depths of my MS account. Any such check would deem me a filthy pirate, at least until I can find my receipts.


----------



## newtekie1 (Mar 2, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Windows 10 Home from Microsoft is $139 - no DOS required.



And you can regularly find it on retailer's websites for $99.



Makaveli said:


> Then I guess call me a sucker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you think that is a completely legit key?  I'm not asking if it works, I'm asking if you think it is 100% legal and legit.  If you do, then you are a sucker.


----------



## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> And you can regularly find it on retailer's websites for $99.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that is a completely legit key?  I'm not asking if it works, I'm asking if you think it is 100% legal and legit.  If you do, then you are a sucker.



Well my "non legit" key have never been rejected by Microsoft and until that happens I'm good!

You guys are free to label it whatever you want at the end of the day my wallet wins and that is all I care about.

I've given that link to numerous IT people over the years and not 1 single complaint.


----------



## kapone32 (Mar 2, 2021)

Are we really complaining about Microsoft being ripped off? Even today you can install Windows 10 and get a key from the Microsoft site or the SCDkeys site and the same thing happens. Windows is activated. Modern hardware is expensive already. Especially if you are a part time builder trying to make a little cash from your hobby.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

kapone32 said:


> Modern hardware is expensive already.


What??? 

So it is okay to rip off fuel companies like Exxon Mobile and BP because cars are expensive already?


----------



## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

kapone32 said:


> Are we really complaining about Microsoft being ripped off? Even today you can install Windows 10 and get a key from the Microsoft site or the SCDkeys site and the same thing happens. Windows is activated. Modern hardware is expensive already. Especially if you are a part time builder trying to make a little cash from your hobby.



Yup ever since windows 10 release that ms was giving away as free upgrades to windows 7 the first year, the OS is now a service. They make alot more money from the office suite than windows licenses and their other products. This billion dollar company is not losing money because you can get license keys for cheap for windows 10.


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 2, 2021)

Hi,
Doubt it 
I believe best argument is the user is the product in win-10 so microsoft makes money off them no matter how much they spend on win-10.


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 2, 2021)

kapone32 said:


> Modern hardware is expensive already.


So, basically you are giving scalpers a free pass, and MS has to pay the price? That doesn't make any sense. Hardware at its normal levels is more than adequately priced. Heck, I live in a most corrupt countries in the world, with GDP worse than El Salvador, and with a part-time job and a tiny electronics repair business I can afford things like that powerhouse in my profile spec. And don't forget that we live in wonderous times where kids can get $100 chromebooks, workers can get $300 high-performance laptops, and gamers can buy something decent for under $750. Just to put it into perspective, my very first entry-level laptop with a puny single-core Pentium M and 256M of RAM cost me nearly all of my yearly savings (over $1000 at the time, or nearly $1400 adjusted for inflation). My stepdad's first laptop was almost 2.5 times more expensive than mine. Don't confuse prices with short-term speculative prices.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> the OS is now a service.


No its not. That just yet another technical term that's been bungled and bastardized by misguided Microsoft marketing weenies and wannabe tech journalists. 

Windows is not a service. It's an operating system.


----------



## Makaveli (Mar 2, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> No its not. That just yet another technical term that's been bungled and bastardized by misguided Microsoft marketing weenies and wannabe tech journalists.
> 
> Windows is not a service. It's an operating system.



All your responses seem to pick one sentence or  word and you miss the point.

Obviously its still an Operating system, however MS doesn't view windows 10 the same as it did previous operating systems. And the direction they are going with Windows 10 is different that previous OS's.


----------



## FireFox (Mar 2, 2021)

Why not to blame those like Ebay for letting/allowing those called non authorized retailers to sell non legit key on their platform, or maybe you will tell me that Ebay didnt know that it is illegal?


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 2, 2021)

Makaveli said:


> All your responses seem to pick one sentence or old word and you miss the point.


LOL - one word can change the entire meaning of the whole comment. I didn't miss the point. I said the point was wrong. 



Makaveli said:


> MS doesn't view windows 10 the same as it did previous operating systems.


No they don't. But that does not make the OS a service. Just because their marketing department calls it so, does not make it so. You could call Windows Update a service, but Windows itself is not. You might even be able to call Office 360 a service. But again, the OS is not. 


Knoxx29 said:


> Why not to blame those like Ebay for letting/allowing those called non authorized retailers to sell non legit key on their platform, or maybe you will tell me that Ebay didnt know that it is illegal?


eBay turns a blind eye to lots of things. That's why "buyer beware" applies to just about everything they sell.


----------



## Steevo (Mar 2, 2021)

I have bought a few keys for Office, I know they are bulk or part of a subscription, but they worked for some older versions that were on really old machines and required the use of older office for specific reasons. 

They wouldn't activate automatically, I had to phone in to the system but they worked. 

Everything is worth what the buyer will pay, its no different than the sites selling music MP3s by the Kb, someone wanted to pass a law in a country that made the internet fair and equitable, and it worked out for awhile. Its just all the middle men who don't get their cut for being middle men.


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 2, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> Windows is not a service. It's an operating system.





Makaveli said:


> Obviously its still an Operating system, however MS doesn't view windows 10 the same as it did previous operating systems. And the direction they are going with Windows 10 is different that previous OS's.



Windows may be an Operating System at the Moment but long Term Microsoft want to turn/run it as a Service (with an Annual fee)
Don't Believe me.............well just Consider Windows Office Suite of Software.
was A Stand alone Addition to Windows..............now its Office 360 and its a yearly Subscription.
Microsoft want this as a yearly Revenue Stream


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 2, 2021)

Hi,
Why else would microsoft create new ways to pester people to make or Switch to a microsoft account.
So microsoft can sell your usage of win-10 to it's partners via all the ms apps it provides 

Of course ms will do this anyway even with a local account too.
But wake up, saying the microsoft marketing department is wrong is just beyond wrong lol


----------



## Steevo (Mar 2, 2021)

Microsoft wants teh annual revenue stream, but the marketplace has become so competitive with versions of Linux and people willing to use older versions of Windows and alternate paid Anti-Virus they have themselves painted into a corner, and until they can make some new amazing features they can charge a yearly fee for they will never get that Windows as a service model off the ground.

They really did themselves in (for me and a lot of others) when they killed off Windows Media Center, it had the ability to run on a second screen while still using windows for gaming, I loved that feature, my wife could watch netflix or movies while I was gaming on another screen with no noticeable effects.


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 2, 2021)

dorsetknob said:


> Windows may be an Operating System at the Moment but long Term Microsoft want to turn/run it as a Service (with an Annual fee)


I've been hearing that since 2015, and so far this "evil plan" made-up by marketeers hasn't come to fruition. MS has absolutely nothing to turn an OS into service, especially with other OSes being free and all (and not being a service either, including server stuff).
It can be good a *platform* for paid services (essentially it is already), but that's a big topic for another day. 


Makaveli said:


> And the direction they are going with Windows 10 is different that previous OS's.


Yep. That direction is making Windows free and regain total dominance. It already happened many years ago.
Grandfathered licenses, heavily discounted keys for laptop manufacturers, free OEM keys for tablets and netbooks under 10" (that's how Chuwi, Teclast and many other chinese tablet manufacturers came to be) etc. etc. etc.
The model didn't work as expected, so they came back to the good-ole $100 and it's yours. It's fair to argue whether MS price is fair or not, but...
It's stupid to argue whether some shady guys from China/Russia registered as business at residential area on the outskirts of London (which has tons of other businesses registered in the same building/apt., far outgrowing it's capacity and breaking the laws of spacetime), and selling software and gift-cards at a fraction of a fraction of their price are legit or not. Spoiler: they aren't. You may hear some vague statements, like it's "leftover corporate VLs" or "unused OEM keys" or some other shit, but you ultimately don't know whether it's true or not. Maybe they snatched it from a botnet of unaware poor bastards, or maybe those keys have been resold to 5 other people. Shit happens. If it's too good to be true - it ain't. 


ThrashZone said:


> Why else would microsoft create new ways to pester people to make or Switch to a microsoft account.


Because Google and Apple do. That's about it. And just like Apple or Google, they are trying to sell you cloud services and software/games subscriptions. 
OS as a paid service is a lie. There is no cake.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 3, 2021)

StrayKAT said:


> Wallpaper and everything is completely blocked out.


Is this after the 30 days or is this a new installation?



R-T-B said:


> Microsoft indeed does not care anymore.
> 
> They stopped caring when Russia started selectively reporting certain groups to Microsoft so they could then sue them out of existence.  Funny, it was all opposition party and environmental watchdog groups though...
> 
> ...


Wow, didn't know about that mess. Interesting.



Bill_Bright said:


> You are right that this is not Microsoft, but Microsoft never stated they do not object to these keys being sold this way - as far as I know, or can find.


We've had this discussion Bill and I feel no need to rehash it here. Microsoft has stated that they will activate any valid key that is presented to them. All you have to do is call them to verify.


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 3, 2021)

silentbogo said:


> Spoiler: other content
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,
I have an iphone besides installing apps I sign out after and can still use all the apps
No telling about android what happens

Bulk of MS apps you can not use unless you're using a ms account which doesn't matter I bulk uninstall with power shell.


----------



## silentbogo (Mar 3, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Bulk of MS apps you can not use unless you're using a ms account which doesn't matter I bulk uninstall with power shell.


I think you are confusing something. Most apps don't require an MS account even for installation.
I don't think I've ever had to sign in to MS Store 'till this day, and yet I run UWP versions of iTunes, VLC and Skype. Played around with mobile ports of various trashy apps. If my memory serves me right, I even have an UWP version of Arduino IDE and of course WSL. Heck, even some windows features are simply UWP apps that get updates from MS store directly, which is exactly how it works in MacOS, Android or iOS.
Most MS Store problems boil down to one thing : content quality control.
So, next time try opening AppStore or PlayMarket without apple or google account. Tell me how it goes.

And if you mean cloud apps, well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. You can't use google docs without a google accout, just like you can't use office365 without ms account. The rest is up to devs to decide whether they want an MS account requirement or not, so it does not pertain to store or OS flaws. MS store is not perfect, but by now it's perfectly functional.
The only thing MS has to do is pull their head out of their collective ass, implement quality requirements and QA, and start providing incentives for devs (like Samsung did for Tizen back in a day).



R-T-B said:


> Microsoft indeed does not care anymore.
> 
> They stopped caring when Russia started selectively reporting certain groups to Microsoft so they could then sue them out of existence. Funny, it was all opposition party and environmental watchdog groups though...
> 
> Turns out since basically everyone in Russia in this timeframe pirated windows, they were just reporting groups they did not like. No evidence required, it would come later certainly.


Russian police can stage a raid on anyone for a number of ridiculous reasons. Windows licenses are just the lamest excuse they could make in public (political equivalent of flexing, which lately has been even more daring). 

The main reason why things work the way they work is this ruling in EU





						CURIA - Documents
					






					curia.europa.eu
				



There was even a blogpost from MS back in a day regarding this thing. 
So, MS can't go after a reseller with a valid EU registration (for some reason most of them are still in UK, even after brexit, but I guess this ruling still applies over there), and that's why eBay can't delist software resale (which includes "digital" or "without a physical medium").


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 3, 2021)

Hi,
I didn't say all ms apps you need to use a ms account dude so no I'm not confused at all


----------



## Deleted member 205776 (Mar 3, 2021)

Imagine not activating Windows 10 through command prompt in a few seconds 

Before you jump at me, Micro$oft makes money off of you using their OS even if you do this. They don't care. Windows is the one thing I'm not gonna pay for.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 3, 2021)

Bill_Bright said:


> And that was on top of the price you paid for DOS which was required to run W95.


Minor nitpick but DOS was included in W95.  Windows 3.1 was seperately bundled.


----------



## Hardcore Games (Mar 3, 2021)

I use Office 2019 instead of subscribing mostly as I use excel's advanced functions and build a lot of graphs etc

I also use Access when I need to dump a database etc


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Mar 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yes you can, I do it all the time. I always set Windows up and config it just right before I activate. Windows has a 30day grace period. It's been that way since Vista.


Nope, 10 is the first version to penalize you for not being activated for 1 second! Will deny personalization, even when 30 days isn't elapsed! IIRC, even 8.1 allowed personalization when not activated in the first 30 days.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 3, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Minor nitpick but DOS was included in W95.


True. Windows 95 did not need a copy of DOS to run. It was the first build of Windows that was all-inclusive and self-contained.


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Mar 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> True. Windows 95 did not need a copy of DOS to run. It was the first build of Windows that was all-inclusive and self-contained.


Windows 95 and Windows 98 are pretty much a 32-bit OS with 16-bit parts and a DOS-based boot loader.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 3, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> Nope, 10 is the first version to penalize you for not being activated for a 1 second! Will deny personalization, even when 30 days isn't elapsed! IIRC, even 8.1 allowed personalization when not activated in the first 30 days.


Then you are doing something wrong. Whether you are failing to completely wipe the HDD/SSD(which includes deleting all of the partitions and creating a new partition to be freshly installed to) or you are connecting to the internet and doing something silly directly after installation, if the personalization options are not available to you, the mistake is yours.


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Mar 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Then you are doing something wrong. Whether you are failing to completely wipe the HDD/SSD(which includes deleting all of the partitions and creating a new partition to be freshly installed to) or you are connecting to the internet and doing something silly directly after installation, if the personalization options are not available to you, the mistake is yours.


As soon as the activation went through, I'm no longer denied personalization. Microsoft took away the grace period that existed from Vista to 8.1.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 3, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> As soon as the activation went through, I'm no longer denied personalization. Microsoft took away the grace period that existed from Vista to 8.1.


No, it hasn't. You just have to remove any trace of a previous installation from the drive being installed to. That's the catch. I literally install a copy of Windows 10 daily, I know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Deleted member 202104 (Mar 3, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> As soon as the activation went through, I'm no longer denied personalization. Microsoft took away the grace period that existed from Vista to 8.1.





lexluthermiester said:


> No, it hasn't. You just have to remove any trace of a previous installation from the drive being installed to. That's the catch. I literally install a copy of Windows 10 daily, I know what I'm talking about.



You're both right.

Previously, windows would allow 30 days before locking stuff out even when connected to the internet.

Windows 10 locks you out as soon as you connect to the internet without a key entered during setup.  If you entered a key, or if Windows pulls is from the BIOS of an OEM board, it activates as soon as you connect.


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Mar 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> No, it hasn't. You just have to remove any trace of a previous installation from the drive being installed to. That's the catch. I literally install a copy of Windows 10 daily, I know what I'm talking about.


I haven't checked that, I guess I need to have the cat unplugged, LOL. I always do a clean install with no traces of an OS. On January 3, 2020, it was a clean install to a Crucial MX500 500 GB SATA SSD and on February 4, 2021, a clean install of 20H2 to my brand new Samsung 970 Pro 512 GB NVMe SSD.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 3, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> Windows 95 and Windows 98 are pretty much a 32-bit OS with 16-bit parts and a DOS-based boot loader.


Yep, but dos was included, which was my point.



Alexa said:


> Imagine not activating Windows 10 through command prompt in a few seconds
> 
> Before you jump at me, Micro$oft makes money off of you using their OS even if you do this. They don't care. Windows is the one thing I'm not gonna pay for.


Without a KMS server this isn't possible, nor is this the place for discussing software piracy.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 3, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> You're both right.
> 
> Previously, windows would allow 30 days before locking stuff out even when connected to the internet.
> 
> Windows 10 locks you out as soon as you connect to the internet without a key entered during setup.  If you entered a key, or if Windows pulls is from the BIOS of an OEM board, it activates as soon as you connect.


Wait, that might be the problem. No one should be network connected while installing Windows. That's just inviting a whole host of problems, including not being able to create a local user account, which is completely asinine on the part of Microsoft. It should ALWAYS bee the choice of the user which type of account to create.



R-T-B said:


> Without a KMS server this isn't possible, nor is this the place for discussing software piracy.


Using KMS is not strictly piracy.


----------



## Deleted member 202104 (Mar 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Wait, that might be the problem. No one should be network connected while installing Windows. That's just inviting a whole host of problems.



While I agree, Microsoft doesn't.  They really prefer you're connected so that you can only use a Microsoft account.  No local account for you! 

The biggest difference is that even if disconnected throughout the setup process, as soon as you connect to the internet, Windows attempts to activate.  WIthout a key in place you lose all of the customization options immediately rather than in 30 days with previous versions of Windows.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 3, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> While I agree, Microsoft doesn't. They really prefer you're connected so that you can only use a Microsoft account. No local account for you!


I don't give a flying rats bum what Microsoft thinks, the ruddy twats.(See edit)


weekendgeek said:


> The biggest difference is that even if disconnected throughout the setup process, as soon as you connect to the internet, Windows attempts to activate. WIthout a key in place you lose all of the customization options immediately rather than in 30 days with previous versions of Windows.


Well, stop connecting to the internet until you're ready to activate then! Not a difficult thing really. Seriously, install your drivers, programs and customizations offline. There is never a good reason to connect to the internet while setup is running or until you have everything the way you want it.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Using KMS is not strictly piracy.


True, but he was implying such so I went with it.

I use legit KMS daily.


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 3, 2021)

Hi,
I prefer cheap 7 & 10 pro retail keys 30.us so far only one has failed and they replaced it with just one screen shot of windows saying activate now with black wallpaper.
With all the windows 10 malware cheap is all she wrote lol


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Mar 4, 2021)

I did a new install of Windows 10 on one of my computers after creating a USB boot drive using the media installation tool from Microsoft's website. During setup I selected "I don't have a license". Once it was all set up I checked what it said under the My PC properties, and it says "Windows is activated with a digital license". To me there's absolutely no indication that it's an unlicensed copy of Windows. I was able to customise the appearance preferences and everything. So unless there's an unspoken grace period it really does seem like you don't need to activate Windows these days. Huh....


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 4, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> I did a new install of Windows 10 on one of my computers after creating a USB boot drive using the media installation tool from Microsoft's website. During setup I selected "I don't have a license". Once it was all set up I checked what it said under the My PC properties, and it says "Windows is activated with a digital license". To me there's absolutely no indication that it's an unlicensed copy of Windows. I was able to customise the appearance preferences and everything. So unless there's an unspoken grace period it really does seem like you don't need to activate Windows these days. Huh....


that is not normal lol


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Mar 4, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> that is not normal lol



I would normally expect to see something like this:



Spoiler










But there's nothing on my desktop like that. No "Activate Windows" buttons in the settings, no notifications saying "30 days remaining to activate" or..... anything. I remember older versions of Windows made it blindingly obvious that they weren't activated, but now it seems like Microsoft doesn't give a damn.

Maybe they're making good money just by collecting and selling our private information


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 4, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> that is not normal lol


It's fairly close to my experience, the exception being the auto "activated with a digital license" thing. That's what my shop techs get as well. However, they are trained NOT to connect to the internet until after drivers, programs and configs are installed.
And as a rule we have been selling the inexpensive keys for those customers who can not afford the retail package. However they know that Microsoft does not directly support those installations. That's what we do, and that's the way it's intended to be.


----------



## Caring1 (Mar 4, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> I did a new install of Windows 10 on one of my computers after creating a USB boot drive using the media installation tool from Microsoft's website. During setup I selected "I don't have a license". Once it was all set up I checked what it said under the *My PC* properties


That's what it used to be called, when you owned your PC.


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Mar 4, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> That's what it used to be called, when you owned your PC.



Ah yes of course, now they call it "This PC". The devil is in the details.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 4, 2021)

t


PooPipeBoy said:


> I would normally expect to see something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


in all my years once it gets on the network you have 24hrs before its gone


----------



## DAWMan (Mar 6, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> I did a new install of Windows 10 on one of my computers after creating a USB boot drive using the media installation tool from Microsoft's website. During setup I selected "I don't have a license". Once it was all set up I checked what it said under the My PC properties, and it says "Windows is activated with a digital license". To me there's absolutely no indication that it's an unlicensed copy of Windows. I was able to customise the appearance preferences and everything. So unless there's an unspoken grace period it really does seem like you don't need to activate Windows these days. Huh....



Microsoft considers Windows as a service, therefore it’s free. Been this way for a while.

Only pain is constantly having to disable notifications every time you upgrade.

Since my builds are Audio Workstation‘s, getting rid of the audio is more important than the annoying pop ups.

Other than that for years it works well. I used 7/8.1 up until 2018, didn’t want to upgrade but once my ASIO Drivers were upgraded to 10 I dove in. Like it much better than Mac OS’s that drive developers nuts trying to stay current.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 6, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> Microsoft considers Windows as a service, therefore it’s free.


Only it's literally not free.  They do describe their model as "Windows as a service" though since 10.


----------



## qubit (Mar 7, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Only it's literally not free.  They do describe their model as "Windows as a service" though since 10.


Yup, a great example is Office 365. That's SaaS, so try subscribing to it without payment...


----------



## DAWMan (Mar 7, 2021)

Well it cost me nothing. Media Creation Tool, then download & install.
Maybe it’s for years of retail purchases from ‘95-8.1.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 7, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> Well it cost me nothing. Media Creation Tool, then download & install.
> Maybe it’s for years of retail purchases from ‘95-8.1.


But that is basicly a demo mod with certain features disabled


----------



## DAWMan (Mar 7, 2021)

Maybe that’s why my streaming has no background services interupting the process.
Perfect set of features for me.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 7, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> Maybe that’s why my streaming has no background services interupting the process.
> Perfect set of features for me.


But it's still a demo mode you have the water mark and the please activate windows it's clearly not free if it's asking for you to pay


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 7, 2021)

good thing I am moving to Linux Ubuntu soon as most of the games on my backlog are supported fully there. I will miss out on a couple titles, but its all good.  will be nice, shedding M$ once and for all.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 7, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> good thing I am moving to Linux Ubuntu soon as most of the games on my backlog are supported fully there. I will miss out on a couple titles, but its all good.  will be nice, shedding M$ once and for all.


Ubuntus not worth it trust me I've tried for how broken windows is it does have a tendency to just Work


----------



## sepheronx (Mar 7, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Ubuntus not worth it trust me I've tried for how broken windows is it does have a tendency to just Work


What about mint is or pop is?


----------



## DAWMan (Mar 7, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> But it's still a demo mode you have the water mark and the please activate windows it's clearly not free if it's asking for you to pay


I have no please activate, no nagware like 8.1.

It just works with all of my drivers and never blinks.

If I need a social media or internet PC maybe missing features would be helpful.
But for audio servers you need hassle free stability.

So is it a Please Activate Water Marked Demo?
I don’t inow, and really don’t care.
Reminds me of XP. A real workhorse...


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 7, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> Ubuntus not worth it trust me I've tried for how broken windows is it does have a tendency to just Work



I have a laptop I run ubuntu on it and its rock solid for me, I only run steam and indie games on it though. So maybe for your use case ubuntu is junk, but for mine it works fine.


----------



## qubit (Mar 7, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> I have no please activate, no nagware like 8.1.
> 
> It just works with all of my drivers and never blinks.
> 
> ...


It will ask you to activate and disable personalisation.

Have you done an upgrade install over Win 7 or 8? The activation from that will activate W10. Totally legit.


----------



## P4-630 (Mar 7, 2021)

qubit said:


> It will ask you to activate and disable personalisation.
> 
> Have you done an upgrade install over Win 7 or 8? The activation from that will activate W10. Totally legit.



Or you can just do a clean install of windows 10 if you are just using the same motherboard with previous windows 7/8/8.1 installed, that's how I did it.


----------



## qubit (Mar 8, 2021)

P4-630 said:


> Or you can just do a clean install of windows 10 if you are just using the same motherboard with previous windows 7/8/8.1 installed, that's how I did it.


Yeah that will work. Microsoft calls it a Digital License.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 8, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> I have no please activate, no nagware like 8.1.
> 
> It just works with all of my drivers and never blinks.
> 
> ...


They are still allowing free upgrades from 8.1 unofficially.  You probably got one.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 8, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> They are still allowing free upgrades from 8.1 unofficially.  You probably got one.


And win 7


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 8, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> They are still allowing free upgrades from 8.1 unofficially.  You probably got one.





Isaac` said:


> And win 7


Both true. They are allowing it and that's their choice to make if they so wish.


----------



## INSTG8R (Mar 8, 2021)

I’m still on my Win7 “upgrade“ OEM key tied to my MS account that apparently went full retail. I recently switched from Intel to AMD and bought a new key fully expecting to need it(Cheap key that of course needed a phone call)But my OG key just rolled over to my new rig much to my surprise.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 8, 2021)

INSTG8R said:


> I’m still on my Win7 “upgrade“ OEM key tied to my MS account that apparently went full retail. I recently switched from Intel to AMD and bought a new key fully expecting to need it(Cheap key that of course needed a phone call)But my OG key just rolled over to my new rig much to my surprise.


I've been seeing that too but not fully consistently. I wonder what the particulars are of what does and does not qualify for conversion.


----------



## INSTG8R (Mar 8, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I've been seeing that too but not fully consistently. I wonder what the particulars are of what does and does not qualify for conversion.


I was genuinely surprised  It’s so old so I fully expected to need a new key and had one at the ready.


----------



## PooPipeBoy (Mar 14, 2021)

Okay so I've tried out a fresh install of Windows 10 Pro to see what the unactivated version is like. Latest version was downloaded with the Microsoft Media Creation Tool. I've learned a couple of things:

With a fresh install,

Windows will not communicate with the activation servers until the internet is connected (well duh) and essentially provides full functionality with personalization.
After connecting to the internet,

Any options under the Personalization section are greyed out. This includes Start Menu and Taskbar personalization options. Once it's locked by going online, you can't get it back unless Windows is activated.
Windows updates and all other functionalities (i.e. anything except personalization) still work as normal and don't seem to be neutered.
There are no "Activate Windows" watermarks, or activation notifications, or any indications that there is a trial period (e.g. 30 days).
Under the Settings > Update & Security > Activation section, it claims that: "Running a non-genuine copy of Windows can put you at greater risk for viruses and other security threats". This seems like a bogus claim when considering that Windows Defender still updates itself as normal and there's no reason why anti-virus programs would not work.
In that same section, it shows the last five digits of a 25-digit product key. I guess it already generates one by default?
I'm going to continue testing this unactivated Windows 10 over a month or so to see if anything changes.


----------



## HTC (Mar 14, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> good thing I am *moving to Linux* Ubuntu soon as most of the games on my backlog are supported fully there. I will miss out on a couple titles, but its all good.  will be nice, *shedding M$ once and for all*.


Our club is growing ...


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 14, 2021)

HTC said:


> Our club is growing ...



Don't let the door hit you on the way out M$


----------



## qubit (Mar 14, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> good thing I am moving to Linux Ubuntu soon as most of the games on my backlog are supported fully there. I will miss out on a couple titles, but its all good.  will be nice, shedding M$ once and for all.


It's nice to kick product activation to the curb, isn't it?


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 14, 2021)

Hi,
Yeah been using mint cinnamon 20 and now 20.1 for a little while 
It's just okay for some things linux in general is still too much of a pita for most people and hasn't really advanced since I first used it years ago on Mint ... 17 lol  

Most will not use linux because they already despise simply clicking past a windows UAC popup lol so using a password for linux won't fly


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 14, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yeah been using mint cinnamon 20 and now 20.1 for a little while
> It's just okay for some things linux in general is still too much of a pita for most people and hasn't really advanced since I first used it years ago on Mint ... 17 lol
> 
> Most will not use linux because they already despise simply clicking past a windows UAC popup lol so using a password for linux won't fly


I use windows because while I understand and know how to use CMD line's they annoy me


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 14, 2021)

Isaac` said:


> I use windows because while I understand and know how to use CMD line's they annoy me



I have never once used a single CMD line ins Linux Ubuntu. Everything I need came pre-installed and auto-updates. I only game on Steam though, so eh.


----------



## Kissamies (Mar 14, 2021)

My laptop accepted Win10 Pro without a hiccup, it had Win8 Pro originally and doesn't laptops usually have their OS licenses built-in on their motherboards?


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 14, 2021)

Chloe Price said:


> My laptop accepted Win10 Pro without a hiccup, it had Win8 Pro originally and doesn't laptops usually have their OS licenses built-in on their motherboards?


Some do yes


----------



## Jism (Mar 14, 2021)

Germany is a bit weird on licencing and laws. This is no exception.


----------



## GerKNG (Mar 14, 2021)

you guys are still discussing about a random website posting shit?

i even talked to ebay in germany and they said they NEVER heard anything like this... not a single customer ever contacted ebay for having issues or something similar.
i checked a bunch of german PC Forums and there is not a single post or even a comment of a single person talking about this.

you are going crazy with this crap post from a dodgy website that has no source for it's claims.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 14, 2021)

Chloe Price said:


> My laptop accepted Win10 Pro without a hiccup, it had Win8 Pro originally and doesn't laptops usually have their OS licenses built-in on their motherboards?


It's generally built into the BIOS, but yes.


----------



## DAWMan (Mar 15, 2021)

PooPipeBoy said:


> Okay so I've tried out a fresh install of Windows 10 Pro to see what the unactivated version is like. Latest version was downloaded with the Microsoft Media Creation Tool. I've learned a couple of things:
> 
> With a fresh install,
> 
> ...


I’ve used it for years, it will work fine. I use a custom power scheme, multiple monitors, no need for the personal assistant or any other gunk.
Most of my needs reside in the ASRock Server boards BIOS.

They sell your data by extracting it during “upgrades.”

The only drawback seems to be on older CPUs like i7 5775/i7 4790k, when you stay offline the CPU works extra hard as it searches for files it cannot find.
They dont like being offline more than a week.


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 15, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> The only drawback seems to be on older CPUs like i7 5775/i7 4790k, when you stay offline the CPU works extra hard as it searches for files it cannot find.
> They dont like being offline more than a week.



thank goodness AMD made a comeback.


----------



## Hachi_Roku256563 (Mar 15, 2021)

DAWMan said:


> I’ve used it for years, it will work fine. I use a custom power scheme, multiple monitors, no need for the personal assistant or any other gunk.
> Most of my needs reside in the ASRock Server boards BIOS.
> 
> They sell your data by extracting it during “upgrades.”
> ...


Unless you disable it as the ask you on install


----------



## masterdeejay (Mar 18, 2021)

How do i know if my currently used keys are legal? Is there a way to check it?

I bought a used brand pc that have a win10 key sticker (or bios integrated key - dell, hp brand...) - it is legal?

I found a used pc in trash that have win10 key sticker (or bios integrated key - dell, hp brand...) - it is legal?

I bought a few chinese motherboard that have integrated bios key (chinese mobo chipset is from recycled brand workstations or server that may have keys) - it is legal?
(i chose "I don't have a license" on windows install, but after installed it says activated)
i have a lot of pc case that have win7 pro sticker and working keys from trash and from corporate scrapping. I even found a working unopened boxed windows 7 ultimate edition. And i have a lot of original pc/ps1/xbox games from trash.

I dont have any bill or invoice, so all my keys are stolen and i am a criminal?


----------



## FireFox (Mar 18, 2021)

masterdeejay said:


> so all my keys are stolen and i am a criminal?


Kinda, you didn't pay for it  ( JOKE )anyway you aren't in Germany, that said you are safe, instead I'm screwed


----------



## StartofEnding (Mar 23, 2021)

THIS is the most illogical and funny news I read today (and the day is over)


----------



## AsRock (Mar 23, 2021)

Steevo said:


> Microsoft wants teh annual revenue stream, but the marketplace has become so competitive with versions of Linux and people willing to use older versions of Windows and alternate paid Anti-Virus they have themselves painted into a corner, and until they can make some new amazing features they can charge a yearly fee for they will never get that Windows as a service model off the ground.
> 
> They really did themselves in (for me and a lot of others) when they killed off Windows Media Center, it had the ability to run on a second screen while still using windows for gaming, I loved that feature, my wife could watch netflix or movies while I was gaming on another screen with no noticeable effects.



Wait until the day come that MS takes over Linux, it's going to happen.


----------



## Caring1 (Mar 24, 2021)

AsRock said:


> Wait until the day come that MS takes over Linux, it's going to happen.


They can amalgamate the names and it shall be known as Microsux.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 24, 2021)

AsRock said:


> Wait until the day come that MS takes over Linux, it's going to happen.


Perhaps, but on that day many other things will also happen. For example, the Sun will turn green, the Martians(who have been hiding from us behind the rings of Saturn) will drop in and give us all pizza and the magical world will finally reveal themselves to us mere muggles...


----------



## basco (Mar 24, 2021)

can i have extra cheese and maybe some super chilly´s from behind the sun


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 24, 2021)

basco said:


> can i have extra cheese and maybe some super chilly´s from behind the sun


Sure, why not. Grand fantasy, isn't it?


----------



## freeagent (Mar 24, 2021)

So, if you live in Germany, and you bought a key from say.. goodoffer24, they advertise here.. would that key be ok to the authorities?


----------



## skizzo (Mar 24, 2021)

this reminds me of the Adult Swim show Metalocalypse with the band Dethklok. They had an episode where the band and their hired guns would bust into peoples homes while they were downloading music and beat the crap out of them or bring them into their dungeon like prisons lol. Clearly was a joke on the whole Metallica flipping out over Napster ordeal. I can only imagine someone installing Windows 10 to have German Police with a SWAT like response bust into their computer rooms guns drawn and all


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 24, 2021)

freeagent said:


> would that key be ok to the authorities?


You'll be fine. Unless the NAZI's have returned, the police will not care about you buying an inexpensive CDKey.


----------



## xrobwx71 (Mar 24, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> All you have to do is call Microsoft's phone activation center. I have never had them deny an activation for an OEM key. Ever. It takes all of 5 minutes to do.


This has always been my experience as well. It's the easiest robocall you'll ever make.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 24, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You'll be fine. Unless the NAZI's have returned, the police will not care about you buying an inexpensive CDKey.


Honestly, the nazis didn't either.  Just saying.

Sort of before their time.


----------



## AudiQ7 (May 9, 2022)

Hello!
Has there been any development regarding illegal keys?  Has it become a police case ??


----------



## kapone32 (May 9, 2022)

AudiQ7 said:


> Hello!
> Has there been any development regarding illegal keys?  Has it become a police case ??


Buying a discount key from a retailer with your Paypal account and having Microsoft verify your copy of Windows is not a crime.


----------



## AudiQ7 (May 9, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Buying a discount key from a retailer with your Paypal account and having Microsoft verify your copy of Windows is not a crime.


Not what I asked. Now, specifically, I ask the Germans, what has become of any police case?


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 9, 2022)

I have bought 3 over the last few years, never for more than $20. If they sell them cheap, someone will buy them, human nature, even if you know it is too cheap.


----------



## qubit (May 9, 2022)

Yeah, of course these cheap keys are bent. They're obviously way too cheap. Unless the letter of the law is stuck to in the license conditions, it's technically pirate, no matter how edge case it may seem. I think that this should be a settled question.

Having said this, the marketplace is rife with sellers of such keys and heck, they're even promoted on TPU with locked threads, so what's the deal? To me, that strongly suggests that Microsoft looks the other way as market dominance is everything to them because of a bigger payoff than someone not paying for Windows. A multibillion dollar company like Microsoft could easily clamp down on this practice if they wanted to. So, if Microsoft isn't bothered by it, or tacitly accepts it as a cost of doing business, who are we to start worrying exactly how legit these keys are? I say, buy the keys and enjoy the products, no need to worry about exactly how legit they are even though they activate.


----------



## dirtyferret (May 9, 2022)

So the email I got from Franz titled Achtung Abschaum was legit?


----------



## kapone32 (May 9, 2022)

Disciunt Windows Keys exist for the same reason Discount Gaming sites exist. Scales of economy. The Internet is Worldwide though so in richer economies we can also buy "discount, cheap (even if you want illegal) legitimate keys for Windows programs....among others. The fact that there is a digital transaction for the key is registered on the Microsoft ecosystem before we the consumer even buy the key. There are not that many economies that can afford $200 Canadian for a copy of Windows from their Website.


----------



## Frick (May 9, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> It should be noted, this is not Microsoft doing this. Microsoft has already stated they do not object to these keys being sold. This is German law enforcement acting poorly.



Late reply, but do you have a source on this?


----------



## AudiQ7 (May 9, 2022)

So you don’t know of any cases where someone is summoned by the police or fined?


----------



## Jetster (May 9, 2022)

They're also going after drugs and internet crime (dark web). I suspect the Windows cases will all be dropped

German authorities behead dark web Hydra Market (techtarget.com)


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 9, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Buying a discount key from a retailer with your Paypal account and having Microsoft verify your copy of Windows is not a crime.


Exactly. German Law Enforcement seems to have their heads firmly lodged in their bum..



Frick said:


> Late reply, but do you have a source on this?


Yes, microsoft themselves. This discussion took place in one of the cdkey threads where we debated until I reached out to microsoft and they confirmed their stance. I will not repeat it here, you'll have to look up that thread.



freeagent said:


> So, if you live in Germany, and you bought a key from say.. goodoffer24, they advertise here.. would that key be ok to the authorities?


According to German authorities, no. According to EU law, yes. German law enforcement seems to be acting outside EU law, which in a way, makes them an outlaw agency bordering treasonous behaviour.


----------



## Kissamies (May 10, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> According to German authorities, no. According to EU law, yes. German law enforcement seems to be acting outside EU law, which in a way, makes them an outlaw agency bordering treasonous behaviour.


There's many examples when that same crap happens in Finland as well. Though never heard that grey market keystores have been criticized here.


----------



## Vayra86 (May 10, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Disciunt Windows Keys exist for the same reason Discount Gaming sites exist. Scales of economy. The Internet is Worldwide though so in richer economies we can also buy "discount, cheap (even if you want illegal) legitimate keys for Windows programs....among others. The fact that there is a digital transaction for the key is registered on the Microsoft ecosystem before we the consumer even buy the key. There are not that many economies that can afford $200 Canadian for a copy of Windows from their Website.



This. And I'm going to believe this whole topic's premise when someone can post a documented case of someone actually picked up for court to talk about an illegal Windows 10 key.

Please, someone humour me. Otherwise this topic necro has no purpose other than fearmongering 
Grey market sales like this are completely, utterly irrelevant, MS even said so and their policy echoes it as it has done since Windows XP. The cost of hunting this down by far exceeds just spraying Windows licensing over all consumers happily like golden showers. There is a group that believes otherwise, they call them sheep  The same principle applies to piracy in gaming. You don't fight this per-case despite all the lobby you see from the entertainment industry. That whole idea never really went any further than a few edge cases in which the public outrage and just general common sense dictates this makes no sense whatsoever. I vaguely remember one from France. In the Netherlands, we have 'Brein' and their biggest achievement has been blocking some torrent IPs and mirrors, but you can still access them regardless, even without a VPN.

This whole anti piracy/grey/black market battle is a back and forth with no end, no solution, and the only realistic stance is 'live and let live'. It exists. It covers a few percent of any marketplace. So what. I call it a healthy consumer anti-corporate practice that keeps some form of sanity in the market, and also is an enabler for us to preserve data irrespective of whatever companies think is right over time. That last part is of greater value to us than the economical damage of piracy. Its for that reason we have companies like GoG, but also Steam and its pretty comfortable DRM and access to content. The market is better with piracy.

/thread


----------



## looniam (May 10, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> The same principle applies to piracy in gaming. You don't fight this per-case despite all the lobby you see from the entertainment industry. That whole idea never really went any further than a few edge cases in which the public outrage and just general common sense dictates this makes no sense whatsoever. I vaguely remember one from France. In the Netherlands, we have 'Brein' and their biggest achievement has been blocking some torrent IPs and mirrors, but you can still access them regardless, even without a VPN.
> 
> /thread


i guess its a topic for another thread* that fortunately the RIAA doesn't get far on that side of the pond:





						RIAA & Rightscorp Defeat Renewed ‘False & Fraudulent’ Piracy Notice Claims * TorrentFreak
					

The RIAA and anti-piracy partner Rightscorp have successfully countered allegations that they sent 'false and fraudulent' piracy notices.




					torrentfreak.com
				



they go after ISPs after decades of pursuing collage kids:





						RIAA Sues 477 More People
					

The music group continues its lawsuit blitz, targeting dozens more college students and hundreds of other computer users. The industry has now filed 2,454 suits since last summer, although none of the cases has yet gone to trial.




					www.wired.com
				



got a torrent of a big budget movie (esp cam/TS) thats bombing at the box office?: better not be from a public tracker or your ISP will get a notice - from personal exp.


*maybe not considering policy,


----------



## AudiQ7 (May 10, 2022)

So who lives in Germany. Has anyone ever been severely punished?


----------



## AudiQ7 (May 28, 2022)

AudiQ7 said:


> So who lives in Germany. Has anyone ever been severely punished?


?


----------



## P4-630 (May 28, 2022)

AudiQ7 said:


> So who lives in Germany. Has anyone ever been severely punished?



The worst they can do is send you to labor camp..


----------



## qubit (May 28, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> The worst they can do is send you to labor camp..


Totally worth it.


----------



## chrcoluk (May 28, 2022)

Dont know about German laws, but in UK buying an illegal product key is not illegal.  The sellers on the other hand.


----------



## R-T-B (May 29, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> The worst they can do is send you to labor camp..


I doubt it's more than a fine IF they could even enforce it...  No one is being sent to a gulag over this.


----------



## AudiQ7 (May 31, 2022)

I agree. Prison is an exaggeration.


----------



## Vayra86 (May 31, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> The worst they can do is send you to labor camp..



Cheaper gas than in NL... 

I'll see myself out


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 31, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> The worst they can do is send you to labor camp..



Nah German labour camps are notoriously deadly.

All the keys for windows i have ever used bar one ( i actually have a genuine win 10 disc/license key ) have worked across multiple motherboards with no problems. These have all been bought from the cheapo retailers.


----------



## AugeK (May 31, 2022)

Being German and buying keys online since Windows7 I never had any issues with the authorities concerning such keys.

My two cents so far ...


----------



## MarsM4N (May 31, 2022)

AudiQ7 said:


> So who lives in Germany. Has anyone ever been severely punished?



There are *thousands of lawsuits* running right now. Punnished will be only those without legal expense insurance and/or a good lawyer, or those who don't have the cash for a lawyer & just agree to the charges with the lack of knowledge to defend themselfs from these dubious charges.

The whole process pretty much goes as follows: *eBay seller* gets busted & charged, PC's/data confiscated, customers lists secured from the drives, then the info will be handed over to the local courts which will file the charges. Of course only if criminal activity from the eBay seller is confirmed. For the buyers it's kinda like *a scam from the government*, they just try to charge you with anything and if you're too dumb to defend yourself they make money from your ignorance. Doesn't matter if you thought the offer is legit or not.  Charges include: software piracy, money laundering, copyright infringement, etc. & fines will be balanced out on very detailed legal nuances, _actus reus__ & mens rea, intent oder intention, knowledge, recklessness und negligence._

If you want to dive more into, there is a famous German lawyer (Christian Solmecke) on Youtube who also did defend someone, heck he was even himself a victim of it a while ago, lol:









(try subtitles, don't know if it works in english too)

As a German I wouldn't buy any Windows key from eBay or any German shop, it's just not worth the hazzle.  There are enough keyshops that are out of legal reach of these GOV maniacs.


----------



## ThrashZone (May 31, 2022)

Hi,
Most if not all of these cheap keys come from China and resold at various places like ebay
Example TPU sponsored godeals24 and a couple others I've noticed popup recently of similar names like "keysoff" lol are posted as news articles locked of course for good measure

I've found them to be a tad misleading on the windows 10 pro keys they sell 
Some if not all are likely win-8 pro keys but sold as win-10 and maybe 11 pro keys 
Really depends on the install instructions they sometimes disclose 

Cheap office keys are also a can of worms seeing they state msdnr retail if you run this command 






			Redirecting


----------



## Vayra86 (May 31, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> There are *thousands of lawsuits* running right now. Punnished will be only those without legal expense insurance and/or a good lawyer, or those who don't have the cash for a lawyer & just agree to the charges with the lack of knowledge to defend themselfs from these dubious charges.
> 
> The whole process pretty much goes as follows: *eBay seller* gets busted & charged, PC's/data confiscated, customers lists secured from the drives, then the info will be handed over to the local courts which will file the charges. Of course only if criminal activity from the eBay seller is confirmed. For the buyers it's kinda like *a scam from the government*, they just try to charge you with anything and if you're too dumb to defend yourself they make money from your ignorance. Doesn't matter if you thought the offer is legit or not.  Charges include: software piracy, money laundering, copyright infringement, etc. & fines will be balanced out on very detailed legal nuances, _actus reus__ & mens rea, intent oder intention, knowledge, recklessness und negligence._
> 
> ...


Pffff its a sad state of affairs then. Totally pointless waste of taxpayer money and institutional capacity. Going after the little guys... solving nothing.

Perhaps reason for protest ? I can say that in Netherlands there is no such ridiculous witch hunt. BREIN officially states it will only go after those that release the content and torrent sites. And they always chase reality. Most recent 'victory' is they 'blocked' 1337x.to and numerous proxies. Okay... so we use 1337xxx.to now.


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 31, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> There are *thousands of lawsuits* running right now. Punnished will be only those without legal expense insurance and/or a good lawyer, or those who don't have the cash for a lawyer & just agree to the charges with the lack of knowledge to defend themselfs from these dubious charges.
> 
> The whole process pretty much goes as follows: *eBay seller* gets busted & charged, PC's/data confiscated, customers lists secured from the drives, then the info will be handed over to the local courts which will file the charges. Of course only if criminal activity from the eBay seller is confirmed. For the buyers it's kinda like *a scam from the government*, they just try to charge you with anything and if you're too dumb to defend yourself they make money from your ignorance. Doesn't matter if you thought the offer is legit or not.  Charges include: software piracy, money laundering, copyright infringement, etc. & fines will be balanced out on very detailed legal nuances, _actus reus__ & mens rea, intent oder intention, knowledge, recklessness und negligence._
> 
> ...


That is seriously messed up! Seems like history might be repeating itself after all..


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 3, 2022)

*Why are Microsoft cheap licenses from Lizengo (for example) illegal?*
It is obvious to everyone that software offers at ridiculous prices, which one can stumble across on the pages of opaque Internet providers from the Far East, should be treated with caution. However, hardly any buyer worries about the fact that something he can get in any supermarket might be illegal. However, this is exactly the case here, since the Asian license keys, which were distributed by Lizengo on the European market at a tenth of the original price, allow the activation of the respective Windows software, but not its unrestricted use.

From this the public prosecutor's office now derives the charges of copyright infringement, data theft and money laundering.


W*hat do the accusations leveled against Lizengo purchasers mean?*
Copyright infringement under Section 106 of the German Copyright Act (UrhG) is the reproduction or distribution of a work without the consent of the author. In this case, it is the illegal distribution of software.
Data theft pursuant to Section 202d of the German Criminal Code (StGB) occurs when data that is not generally accessible and that has been obtained illegally is procured for oneself or someone else, given to another, disseminated or otherwise made accessible in order to enrich oneself or a third party or to harm another.
Money laundering (in the present case, reckless money laundering is assumed) occurs under Section 261 of the Criminal Code if someone conceals an object derived from an unlawful act, conceals its origin, or frustrates or endangers the determination of the origin, the location, the confiscation, or the seizure of such an object.

*What are the penalties for copyright infringement, data theft or money laundering?*
Data theft and copyright infringement, as defined above, are punishable by a fine or imprisonment of up to 3 years. Those guilty of reckless money laundering are also usually subject to fines, and according to the letter of the law, imprisonment for up to 2 years. So the matter is no joke. The public prosecutor's office does not shy away from showing up at the front doors of Lizengo buyers with a search warrant, and seizing whatever data carriers they find. It is certainly worth discussing whether and to what extent the above-mentioned accusations can be made against buyers of cheap licenses at all.


*What is problematic about the accusations made against buyers of the Lizengo licenses?*
That a copyright infringement according to § 106 UrhG exists in the case of mass sales of software at a fraction of the original price by Lizengo can be confidently affirmed. However, the extent to which the purchasers should be guilty of distribution and/or duplication may not be clear.

*It is similar with the accusation of data theft*: It is doubtful whether the accusation of illegally obtaining data for one's own enrichment or to harm others can be made against someone who has purchased and paid for something freely available at the supermarket checkout. The accusation of money laundering only makes sense if one assumes that every customer should have suspected an illegal origin of the license keys offered by Lizengo in view of the ridiculous price. In fact, this cannot be assumed for a freely sellable item. Especially not since neither Microsoft nor the German courts had made a clear statement in 2019 about whether the cheap licenses were legal or not.


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## R-T-B (Jun 3, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Cheap office keys are also a can of worms seeing they state msdnr retail if you run this command
> View attachment 249425


That's just a change directory command...


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## 95Viper (Jun 3, 2022)

Keep the conversation on topic.


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## javagir (Aug 7, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> _There are numerous websites where relatively inexpensive license keys can be purchased for, for example, Microsoft Windows 10.
> For a fraction of the suggested retail price, you can obtain a valid license. However, the source of the keys is often dubious or illegal.
> 
> According to sources, the German police will actively approach buyers of cheap license keys in hopes of accusing them of money laundering and copyright infringement.
> ...


A couple of months ago I've bought a key; so far it is working well and it is activated online. after reading this thread I am afraid and skeptical.


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## lexluthermiester (Aug 7, 2022)

javagir said:


> A couple of months ago I've bought a key; so far it is working well and it is activated online. after reading this thread I am afraid and skeptical.


Fear not. No one is going to bang down your door for buying that product key. It's been some time since the event of the OP took place and I believe that German authorities have been clued in to the fact that such is not unlawful in the EU and is, in fact, a protected right and thus lawful in Germany. Use your PC with a clear conscience.

And BTW, welcome to TPU!


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

Unless Microsoft going broke after all their keys being leaked as it wouldn't surprise me one bit, people selling keys are making quick money as prison itself is overcrowded not enough to cover the population of whole world at any given moment


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## Audioave10 (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> Unless Microsoft going broke after all their keys being leaked as it wouldn't surprise me one bit, people selling keys are making quick money as prison itself is overcrowded not enough to cover the population of whole world at any given moment


Not to worry - Microsoft (and it's monopoly) will NOT go broke. 

Microsoft said it had $49.4 billion in sales in the first three months of the year, up 18 percent from a year earlier. *Profit rose 8 percent to $16.7 billion*. Microsoft, like many tech companies, enjoyed a surge in demand from the pandemic, but unlike Netflix and others, it has seen its growth continue.Apr 26, 2022


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## qubit (Aug 7, 2022)

Audioave10 said:


> Not to worry - Microsoft (and it's monopoly) will NOT go broke.
> 
> Microsoft said it had $49.4 billion in sales in the first three months of the year, up 18 percent from a year earlier. *Profit rose 8 percent to $16.7 billion*. Microsoft, like many tech companies, enjoyed a surge in demand from the pandemic, but unlike Netflix and others, it has seen its growth continue.Apr 26, 2022


Clearly, these evil, pirated keys are blowing a hole in Microsoft's finances, tsk.

Chuck anyone who peddles or buys them in jail and throw away the key!


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

If Microsoft sold a genius key one time use for €/£/$25 for the 100,000 people that already totalled to €/£/$2.5 million gained or lost to pirated


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 7, 2022)

all thing being right in the Universe should'nt Microsoft have to pay us every time they mess our riggs up with a update' i mean fairs fair init.


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 7, 2022)

I would not say they are lawful - just not unlawful, maybe. 

These licenses, like all software licenses, are sold to someone who agrees to use them according to the terms of the agreement they just made with developer. That makes it a binding contract. 

Note these licenses are part of volume license agreement. A big company may buy a 1000 license package, but only use 700. What happens to the unused 300 is the issue. 

I am not going to get dragged into another pointless argument over the legalities of a company selling to 3rd parties, those unused licenses. I will just say the agreement they made does not allow it. 

Regardless, I agree that as individuals, Microsoft is NOT going to waste their time or money, or risk all the bad publicity going after individuals using those licenses for personal use. But buyers should understand that Microsoft could invalid the license at any time.


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

xtreemchaos said:


> all thing being right in the Universe should'nt Microsoft have to pay us every time they mess our riggs up with a update' i mean fairs fair init.


No they don't because the update shouldn't affect the key it the hardware changes that trigger the activation like you changed the motherboard for something better you get greeted with a logo on the bottom right of the screen


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## P4-630 (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> like you changed the motherboard for something better you get greeted with a logo on the bottom right of the screen



Buy the "better" motherboard in the first place!


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 7, 2022)

im not on about the key bud im on about compo for when they break some of our softwear we use with updates' its happend to most of use at some point ive lost many hours of work over the years while having to fix stuff after updates im just saying fairs fair if thay want to do people for buying keys then it works both ways thay should be held for when they mess up.


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> Buy the "better" motherboard in the first place!


Do what I normally do is build the system without the key until I'm happy with the overall performance then buy the genius key than rather wasting time on sketchy keys in hope that it activates

As for people complains about the updates breaking stuff that Microsoft's way of telling you that your key isn't genius and rightly so they can do that without your permission


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> Do what I normally do is build the system without the key until I'm happy with the overall performance then buy the genius key than rather wasting time on sketchy keys in hope that it activates
> 
> As for people complains about the updates breaking stuff that Microsoft's way of telling you that your key isn't genius and rightly so they can do that without your permission


Are you joking, I paid £156 legit to have my personal folders completely wiped at least once, I had backup's but none the less far to conspiational IMHO.


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Are you joking, I paid £156 legit to have my personal folders completely wiped at least once, I had backup's but none the less far to conspiational IMHO.


How you managed to get it to wipe out the folders in question unless you ended up resetting the whole system with data deletion. You can't blame Microsoft for that


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> How you managed to get it to wipe out the folders in question unless you ended up resetting the whole system with data deletion. You can't blame Microsoft for that


You know nothing of what happened clearly, I wasn't alone.


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## P4-630 (Aug 7, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> You know nothing of what happened clearly, I wasn't alone.


I do remember, a windows update caused it, just can't find it on google now atm..


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> You know nothing of what happened clearly, I wasn't alone.


None of the updates ever deleted anything on my system since day one


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## P4-630 (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> None of the updates ever deleted anything on my system since day one


You were one of the lucky ones then, at that time I was still on win8.1.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> None of the updates ever deleted anything on my system since day one


Lack of experience isn't  confirmation, I haven't had a lot of things happen, do they not exist.

As I said, an update reverted my two PC's at the time to day one wiped, and I wasn't alone there's a thread here in all likelihood.


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Lack of experience isn't  confirmation, I haven't had a lot of things happen, do they not exist.
> 
> As I said, an update reverted my two PC's at the time to day one wiped, and I wasn't alone there's a thread here in all likelihood.


I worked on computers repairs for 11 years that isn't lack of experiences I dealt with all sort by software and hardware related


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> I worked on computers repairs for 11 years that isn't lack of experiences I dealt with all sort by software and hardware related


So still fairly new to it then.


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> So still fairly new to it then.


What that you seems to know everything known to man all hats off to you


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Aug 7, 2022)

Edwired said:


> What that you seems to know everything known to man all hats off to you


All I'm saying is I wouldn't discount others experience so lightly either, your the one implying you Know how my PC's both messed up better than me!!


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## Edwired (Aug 7, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> All I'm saying is I wouldn't discount others experience so lightly either, your the one implying you Know how my PC's both messed up better than me!!


At least I wasn't there to see it happen so back to topic


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## Assimilator (Aug 7, 2022)

Microsoft doesn't particularly care that people are buying these keys because it increases their marketshare (Intel, take note re Arc). This is nothing more than a massive waste of time and resources by the German police service.


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## qubit (Aug 7, 2022)

Assimilator said:


> *Microsoft doesn't particularly care that people are buying these keys because it increases their marketshare* (Intel, take note re Arc). This is nothing more than a massive waste of time and resources by the German police service.


Exactly. If Microsoft doesn't care about this then why should we?


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## KLiKzg (Aug 7, 2022)

It is true, that Microsoft doesn't care. As they have SOLD those key at some point of time, so re-selling those keys is totally OK.

Anyhow, only home users do use those keys. I would not use those keys in company of any sort, then you might fall into problems.
But as a private citizen, would Microsoft pursue the: illegal key hacks of activation or this resold key? Of course, they would pursue those illegal keys & concentrate on those citizens.

All those resold keys have been sold & a tax has been collected. So even the state has got some extra on those keys, taxed those keys twice (though not the same amount).

So, all in all...it is better for German police to pursue the illegal key activations, then to bother people which actually purchased key on a discount.
& if somebody asks me about any of such keys, I would point them out: I just bought them, payed the tax, so go & pursue the seller.


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 8, 2022)

Microsoft absolutely DOES care!!!! They just accept that this rampant scourge of software theft and piracy is so widespread it is too late to do anything about it - now. At least for individuals. 

What needed to happen decades ago was governments needed to honor their United Nations member agreements to protect the IP rights and copyright laws of their fellow member nations. But they failed to do that in part because many of those governments were actively using unauthorized licenses on their own government computers too! 

Way back in the day, there were software swap parties at local rec centers and churches - essentially government and church sanctioned piracy meets where people openly stole software! Many claim it was software piracy that killed, or at least help kill Commodore and many other products. It wasn't until it was too late before the realization of the affects of software piracy became apparent - and then it took even longer for laws to be put in place. And then even to this very day, the resources needed to fund law enforcement agencies so they can enforce those laws are still woefully inadequate. 

It really is akin to shoplifting at Walmart or our local grocery store - where theft by others directly results in higher costs for the products we buy. 

Microsoft bashers are quick to claim it is greed that drives Microsoft and no doubts, back in the day they did want to rule the world. But it was not long before Microsoft was being blamed - relentlessly - for everything! Even things totally out of their control! And that included being blamed for malware infections on pirated copies of Windows - systems that were then used as threats to the rest of us! 

Security is a perfect example. Norton, McAfee, TrendMicro and others at the time whined and cried to Congress and the EU that Microsoft trying to include AV code in XP was MS trying to monopolize the industry. They further claimed it was their job to rid the world of malware. Congress and the EU agreed and MS was forced to leave that code out. So what happened? Norton, McAfee, etc. rejoiced, then failed to protect us! But who got blamed? The bad guys? Nope. Norton and McAfee? Nope. Microsoft? Yep. 

It should have been obvious that Norton, McAfee, etc. and zero incentive to rid the world of malware. If malware goes away, those companies go out of business. Duh! 

Why do you think Congress, the EU, Norton, McAfee have kept mum when MS put Defender in W8/W10/W11? 

The reality is, bad guys, the scumbags who develop and distribute malware, love illegal copies of Windows. And Microsoft cares about that because they are sick and tired of being blamed for the actions (or inactions) of others. And frankly, I don't blame them. I sure don't like being blamed for something going wrong when I have no control over it. 



xtreemchaos said:


> all thing being right in the Universe should'nt Microsoft have to pay us every time they mess our riggs up with a update' i mean fairs fair init.


Here's the problem with that. Even in the worst case of Windows Update breaking computers, the number of affected computers has been tiny - really tiny when you consider there are well over 1.0 billion Windows10/11 systems out there. Even if it affects 1,000,000 users (and AFAIK, no Update has broken that many) that is less than 0.1 percent of all users! 

Plus, you have to remember that essentially each and every one of those systems became unique within the first couple minutes of its first boot - as users configured their accounts, networks, drivers, security, installed applications, and user preferences - and no doubt many of those were systems where users dinked with and changed the recommended default settings too. 

If an Update broke 100s of millions of computers, it would be fair to expect some sort of compensation - assuming you are not using a free, or unauthorized license.


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## kapone32 (Aug 8, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Microsoft absolutely DOES care!!!! They just accept that this rampant scourge of software theft and piracy is so widespread it is too late to do anything about it - now. At least for individuals.
> 
> What needed to happen decades ago was governments needed to honor their United Nations member agreements to protect the IP rights and copyright laws of their fellow member nations. But they failed to do that in part because many of those governments were actively using unauthorized licenses on their own government computers too!
> 
> ...


Microsoft has sort of solved the problem anyway. If you use one of those keys and have to change your MB, that change hardware program will work 1 time after that you will need to buy another key. If you have an "official" key you can change your MB as many times as you want. This is especially true for Windows 11.


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 8, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> If you have an "official" key you can change your MB as many times as you want.


Kinda. If your key goes with a full "Retail" license, then you are correct and your can change your motherboard as many times as you like (as long as Windows is not installed on more than one system at a time). 

But if an OEM license, it is tied to the original equipment (often in the UEFI BIOS) and to remain in compliance with the EULA, you can only change motherboards as part of a repair action if the old board died.


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## mechtech (Aug 8, 2022)

Like the deals they post here on TPU?? Lol

I think my PCs unofficially supported by windows 11 will move to Zorin OS when win 10 support ends.


P4-630 said:


> _There are numerous websites where relatively inexpensive license keys can be purchased for, for example, Microsoft Windows 10.
> For a fraction of the suggested retail price, you can obtain a valid license. However, the source of the keys is often dubious or illegal.
> 
> According to sources, the German police will actively approach buyers of cheap license keys in hopes of accusing them of money laundering and copyright infringement.
> ...


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## xtreemchaos (Aug 8, 2022)

use rufus and disable the checks and TPM needs.


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## ibace (Oct 25, 2022)

Edwired said:


> None of the updates ever deleted anything on my system since day one


Weren't *YOU* lucky? 

Happened to me last Saturday...using an OEM HP AIO with legit Win 10 Home....tried the Win 11 for about 30 minutes...HATED IT...used M/S tool to revert to Win 10 Pro from Win11...seemed the time for the restore was quicker than the "upgrade to 11" but once system rebooted...BSODs every time I tried to restart the PC. I tried everything to fix the issue [really glad I decided to back up all my Personal Data to an external drive before I commenced the upgrade]_* BUT*_ if I hadn't backed my data to external drive...would've lost everything as due to the fact I could not "repair" the Win 10 after the restore...I _*HAD*_ to do a fresh install...wouldn't even let me do an install "over the top" so I would have the "windows.old folder" to access once working...I had to delete every partition on the drive for Windows to allow a new Win 10 installation...and then of course - hours to onfigure it with the additional software I wanted...


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## kapone32 (Oct 25, 2022)

ibace said:


> Weren't *YOU* lucky?
> 
> Happened to me last Saturday...using an OEM HP AIO with legit Win 10 Home....tried the Win 11 for about 30 minutes...HATED IT...used M/S tool to revert to Win 10 Pro from Win11...seemed the time for the restore was quicker than the "upgrade to 11" but once system rebooted...BSODs every time I tried to restart the PC. I tried everything to fix the issue [really glad I decided to back up all my Personal Data to an external drive before I commenced the upgrade]_* BUT*_ if I hadn't backed my data to external drive...would've lost everything as due to the fact I could not "repair" the Win 10 after the restore...I _*HAD*_ to do a fresh install...wouldn't even let me do an install "over the top" so I would have the "windows.old folder" to access once working...I had to delete every partition on the drive for Windows to allow a new Win 10 installation...and then of course - hours to onfigure it with the additional software I wanted...


Home and Pro are very different in terms of allowance, especially OEM. Windows 11 basically locks your HD into it's ecosystem and makes you wipe that drive before going to 10 outside of the Windows environment. You tried to revert to a Pro licence from a Home backup. You are indeed lucky that you saved your data on an external drive.


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## Vario (Oct 25, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Home and Pro are very different in terms of allowance, especially OEM. Windows 11 basically locks your HD into it's ecosystem and makes you wipe that drive before going to 10 outside of the Windows environment. You tried to revert to a Pro licence from a Home backup. You are indeed lucky that you saved your data on an external drive.


 Damn that sounds terrible.  Personally I am waiting for an enterprise 11 release before I upgrade from 10.


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## R-T-B (Oct 29, 2022)

Vario said:


> Damn that sounds terrible.  Personally I am waiting for an enterprise 11 release before I upgrade from 10.


11 enterprise already exists.  I use it for my workstation.  LTSC/LTSB does not however.


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## Vario (Oct 29, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> 11 enterprise already exists.  I use it for my workstation.  LTSC/LTSB does not however.


Yeah that's the one I am hoping for.


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 29, 2022)

Windows 11 LTSC? Ohhh, yes please!


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