# i9-10900k at +115 ‘C @5.1ghz



## Ferd (Sep 15, 2021)

I was watching a video on YouTube in which the host tested a cpu cooler which he claims comes with most of the prebuilts with locked cpus, the interesting part is that the cpu (10900k) was running at 4.9 ghz at minimum during bf gameplay, occasionally boosting to 5.1ghz all while sitting at well above 100 degrees Celsius , max was 115 ( possible that actual temp was higher but that 115 was the max possible reading of the thermal probes).

Any idea what’s going on?

The host thought it was a bad reading but they updated the bios with no change, and temps dropped to reasonable numbers when he attached a better fan , so I don’t think the readings were off ...  aren’t  those chips rated for 100C max, lol  It didn’t even stop turbo boosting .
(Video link : 







)


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## Hyderz (Sep 15, 2021)

it was at 5ghz and then thermal throttling. dropped down to 4.9ghz
that tiny cooler is not made for 10900k, strap in a bigger cooler and you will see the 10900k at 5.1ghz more often  while staying cool


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## joemama (Sep 15, 2021)

Either they loosened the thermal throttling conditions or the thermal throttling mechanism isn't working properly


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## ratirt (Sep 15, 2021)

The thermal capacity of the cooler is poor for something like OC'ed 10900K. No wonder it couldn't keep up.


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## Ferd (Sep 15, 2021)

it was at 5ghz and then thermal throttling. dropped down to 4.9ghz


Hyderz said:


> that tiny cooler is not made for 10900k, strap in a bigger cooler and you will see the 10900k at 5.1ghz more often  while staying cool


Problem is it wasn’t throttling, it was boosting to 5.1 and gets to 115C , without shutting down, it’s not my rig , I was sharing someone else’s video



joemama said:


> Either they loosened the thermal throttling conditions or the thermal throttling mechanism isn't working properly


There are many limits that have been violated, i have no idea how it kept running



ratirt said:


> The thermal capacity of the cooler is poor for something like OC'ed 10900K. No wonder it couldn't keep up.


It should’ve at least start throttling down the frequency to stay below 100 C ! Isn’t that how it works ? Idk if it’s a bios bug or what


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## lowrider_05 (Sep 15, 2021)

The Motherboard in that Video had a Default Thermal Limit of 115C and you could even disable the Limit if you wanted to fry your Chip fully. Just Watch the whole Video, he explains it.


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## Ferd (Sep 15, 2021)

lowrider_05 said:


> The Motherboard in that Video had a Default Thermal Limit of 115C and you could even disable the Limit if you wanted to fry your Chip fully. Just Watch the whole Video, he explains it.


I watched the whole video more than once , what about the dptf protection


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## ratirt (Sep 15, 2021)

Ferd said:


> It should’ve at least start throttling down the frequency to stay below 100 C ! Isn’t that how it works ? Idk if it’s a bios bug or what


hmm good point. I double checked with Intel's specs and the tjMAX is 100c so how on earth it showed 115c is mind bugling. They must have removed some thermal restrictions?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 15, 2021)

It is entirely possible that the software was reading the thermals improperly. All Intel CPU's are calibrated before leaving QC to be packaged. There is no way in hell that CPU was 115C without shutting itself off completely


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## Ferd (Sep 15, 2021)

ratirt said:


> They must have removed some thermal restrictions?


Yes in the video he shows that thermal throttling is disabled in bios , but there is intel’s own thermal protection that should’ve have kicked in , but instead nothing happened


lexluthermiester said:


> It is entirely possible that the software was reading the thermals improperly. All Intel CPU's are calibrated before leaving QC to be packaged. There is no way in hell that CPU was 115C without shutting itself off completely


yeah it doesn’t make any sense, but  looking at the cooling solution I don’t think it can keep up with the heat coming from a 10900k , the thing was pulling 130watts and 5ghz , with that cooler , assuming nothing is wrong I would at least expect the cpu to throttle


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## ratirt (Sep 15, 2021)

Ferd said:


> yeah it doesn’t make any sense, but looking at the cooling solution I don’t think it can keep up with the heat coming from a 10900k


definitely not. That cooler is like a stock cooler for i3's Considering the power required for a 10900K it is a total misunderstanding using it with such a processor.


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## Mussels (Sep 15, 2021)

Ah yes, so you can cook bacon while you game

after watching that video: never buy NZXT motherboards


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## Vayra86 (Sep 15, 2021)

Ferd said:


> I watched the whole video more than once , what about the dptf protection



That NZXT mobo is in fact an ECS board of bottom end quality - at 300 bucks or something. The implementation is quite different. Overclocking was also different on it than on most other Intel boards.









						The NZXT N7 Z490 Motherboard Review: From A Different Direction
					






					www.anandtech.com
				




Gotta love youtube eh, for giving you a daily riddle that was already solved.


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## Ferd (Sep 15, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Gotta love youtube eh, for giving you a daily riddle that was already solved.


Hahahaha I feel dumb sometimes, but with the amount of information out there it can be overwhelming, it’s so nice to have people like you who know a bit of “ tech history “ .
Going through that link I see they complained about Power throttling, but nowhere they mentioned something close to this issue, a chip cooking itself



Mussels said:


> after watching that video: never buy NZXT motherboards


I think the board like this would still have users who will appreciate it ? Idk , if I wanted something that overrides all safety features this would be a good option, given that I know what am doing ofc


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## Vayra86 (Sep 15, 2021)

Ferd said:


> Hahahaha I feel dumb sometimes, but with the amount of information out there it can be overwhelming, it’s so nice to have people like you who know a bit of “ tech history “ .
> Going through that link I see they complained about Power throttling, but nowhere they mentioned something close to this issue, a chip cooking itself
> 
> 
> I think the board like this would still have users who will appreciate it ? Idk , if I wanted something that overrides all safety features this would be a good option, given that I know what am doing ofc



Don't feel dumb for not being overloaded with information. Its a curse 

Anandtech did get the 10900k to 105C before they stopped _their testing_, and they didn't speak of it shutting down. Also of note is this:

"The effect of the throttling at 5.1 GHz shows in our POV-Ray benchmark performance. This is despite the CPU temperature still well within the thermal limitations,_* even with this setting disabled within the firmware*_. One possibility is that there could be a power limitation issue on this board within the firmware itself."


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## Mussels (Sep 15, 2021)

Ferd said:


> Hahahaha I feel dumb sometimes, but with the amount of information out there it can be overwhelming, it’s so nice to have people like you who know a bit of “ tech history “ .
> Going through that link I see they complained about Power throttling, but nowhere they mentioned something close to this issue, a chip cooking itself
> 
> 
> I think the board like this would still have users who will appreciate it ? Idk , if I wanted something that overrides all safety features this would be a good option, given that I know what am doing ofc


really bad vdroop, issues with overclocking, safeties off by default

the only people who want it, are people willing to pay for the NZXT look and able to pay for new parts after the board kills them...


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## Caring1 (Sep 16, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Ah yes, so you can cook bacon while you game
> 
> after watching that video: never buy NZXT motherboards


I like my old NZXT Motherboard, never had a heat issue with it, but then I don't overclock on it.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 16, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> I like my old NZXT Motherboard, never had an issue with it, but then I don't overclock on it.


It's only been lately that NZXT has been having issues. How old is it?


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## Caring1 (Sep 16, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's only been lately that NZXT has been having issues. How old is it?


Z370 with a 9600KF as in my specs.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 16, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Z370 with a 9600KF as in my specs.


And there you go. NZXTs troubles have been more recent. BTW, That's a "K" series i5. Give that thing some OC love! It's built for it. You should be able to get 4.8ghz all-core with minimal effort and minimal extra heat.


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## newtekie1 (Sep 16, 2021)

Wait, I don't get it. He set the TJMax to 95°C, then wondered why the CPU was running cooler but not clocking as high as it was before?  And this guys a tech youtuber?!?


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

115 is mighty impressive. My 3770K can only make it to 105-110 

Yours kept going and mine just crashed 

It can be repeatable, they are pretty tough 

And holy fucking shit ECS is still around? And they still make boards??

I didn't think much of NZXT to begin with, turns out they are just another ECS.


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## tabascosauz (Sep 16, 2021)

I think it was either for Z490 or B550 that NZXT switched to ASRock for hardware and firmware? So basically now they're dressed up, overpriced ASRock boards inside and out, but at least they function normally now. Z370/Z390 NZXT had some Dell-level BIOS functionality going on, really was a laughingstock for a Z-series board. The new ASRock NZXT is much more passable (and iirc the Z490 also came down in price a bit?). Can't get the color scheme elsewhere except on Vision D/Aero anyways. 50A VRM is much better suited for B550 than Z490 though.

Not sure what "not even Dell uses a cooler like this" is supposed to mean though, they've been slapping that crap on all of their XPS 8000s since like Sandy Bridge all the way up until maybe Coffee Lake. And even now the lower-end CPUs still get the shitty cooler, 10400 and 11400 having a wonderful time.


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## Mussels (Sep 16, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> Wait, I don't get it. He set the TJMax to 95°C, then wondered why the CPU was running cooler but not clocking as high as it was before?  And this guys a tech youtuber?!?


No, he questioned why the behaviour was erratic


1. The TJmax on auto was 65-115C, meant to read from the CPU - but it did not, it just went to 118C as if it was disabled

2.He then threw the delta fan on top, which dropped the temps... and the clocks for no reason

3. He disabled thermal throttling entirely at 7:30 and... it clocked lower. Like... the settings are backwards?


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

I


tabascosauz said:


> I think it was either for Z490 or B550 that NZXT switched to ASRock for hardware and firmware? So basically now they're dressed up, overpriced ASRock boards inside and out, but at least they function normally now. Z370/Z390 NZXT had some Dell-level BIOS functionality going on, really was a laughingstock for a Z-series board. The new ASRock NZXT is much more passable (and iirc the Z490 also came down in price a bit?). Can't get the color scheme elsewhere except on Vision D/Aero anyways. 50A VRM is much better suited for B550 than Z490 though.


I do have to say I like my Z77 OC Formula and its archaic bios  EATX kinda sucks though.. have to use a monster case.

Ahh it doesn't really bother my that they still live, I am impressed though.. I thought they were dead. They must be doing something right


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## unclewebb (Sep 16, 2021)

Ferd said:


> Any idea what’s going on?


My Asus desktop board allows me to set the thermal throttling (PROCHOT) temperature to a maximum of 115°C.
Some boards use 115°C as the default value which is a little crazy.






This is a useful feature for enthusiasts. People that love to get the most out of their hardware would give their right arm for a better 3DMark or Cinebench score. They could care a less about the long term health of their CPU.

ThrottleStop reports this correctly and I seem to recall testing this feature once or twice.  





At 114°C, the CPU will continue to use full turbo boost and will run as fast as possible. If 115°C is reached, the CPU only slows down as much as necessary to keep the CPU from exceeding 115°C. Intel thermal throttling works fantastic whether it is set to 100°C or 115°C.

I have set the throttling temperature as low as 32°C. The practical minimum seems to be approximately 45°C.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 16, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> Wait, I don't get it. He set the TJMax to 95°C, then wondered why the CPU was running cooler but not clocking as high as it was before?  And this guys a tech youtuber?!?



Every video posted on Youtube with your own face in it inflicts an IQ debuff of twenty points.

The first appearance is generally acceptable and then it goes downhill


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2021)

Is there a famous YouTuber here?


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## newtekie1 (Sep 16, 2021)

Mussels said:


> No, he questioned why the behaviour was erratic
> 
> 
> 1. The TJmax on auto was 65-115C, meant to read from the CPU - but it did not, it just went to 118C as if it was disabled
> ...


Thats the thing though. He put the delta fan on after he went into the BIOS and set a TJMax of 95°C. From what it looks like in the video he made both of those changes at the same time.  So the lower temps and lower clocks make sense.  The lower temps might not even be from the Delta fan.  His entire testing process with a mess and he didn't even seem to have a basic understanding of how these systems work.


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## Ferd (Sep 16, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> Some boards use 115°C as the default value which is a little crazy.


So clearly board manufacturers know the cpu will be fine above 100 C , what I don’t understand is intel’s own ratings , they still stick to 100C max on the website, is that playing it safe ? I also thought the chips are forced to throttle by dptf


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## newtekie1 (Sep 16, 2021)

Ferd said:


> So clearly board manufacturers know the cpu will be fine above 100 C , what I don’t understand is intel’s own ratings , they still stick to 100C max on the website, is that playing it safe ?


The board manufacturers don't know anything. If the CPU dies, it isn't their problem, it's Intel's.


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## unclewebb (Sep 16, 2021)

Ferd said:


> board manufacturers know the cpu will be fine above 100 C


I would not say that. More like, board manufacturers know that if an Intel CPU blows up, Intel will likely replace it and it will not cost the motherboard manufacturer any money.

Intel has always said that they cannot guarantee long term reliability if you decide to operate their CPUs outside of their published spec. The max temperature spec for the majority of Intel CPUs is 100°C. Your CPU might run wonderful for years after it runs at 110°C or 115°C or it might run unreliably after that. Random BSOD or it might need more voltage to be stable. 



Ferd said:


> forced to throttle by dptf


I do not have that driver installed on my computer. Thermal throttling is built into and controlled by the hardware.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 16, 2021)

Hi,
Anyone liking 100c or over clearly is trying to warm up their igloo lol


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## Ferd (Sep 16, 2021)

newtekie1 said:


> The board manufacturers don't know anything. If the CPU dies, it isn't their problem, it's Intel's.


Makes sense , they’re main concern should be the ability to provide enough power through vrms reliably, heat management is for the user to take care of



unclewebb said:


> Thermal throttling is built into and controlled by the hardware.


Yet in that video nothing is stoping that cpu , guess we can’t blame nzxt , nor intel , perhaps it’s okay for overclocking oriented boards



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Anyone liking 100c or over clearly is trying to warm up their igloo lol





ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Anyone liking 100c or over clearly is trying to warm up their igloo lol


I mean he intentionally put a tiny cooler on the cpu , just a test I guess nothing to be worried about


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## phill (Sep 22, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I
> 
> I do have to say I like my Z77 OC Formula and its archaic bios  EATX kinda sucks though.. have to use a monster case.
> 
> Ahh it doesn't really bother my that they still live, I am impressed though.. I thought they were dead. They must be doing something right


Love mine too, just works and is brilliant for overclocking 

Wow A small cooler on a big CPU giving poor temps...  Who'd have thought??  


newtekie1 said:


> Wait, I don't get it. He set the TJMax to 95°C, then wondered why the CPU was running cooler but not clocking as high as it was before?  And this guys a tech youtuber?!?


I think this is the quality of most tech Youtubers.....


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## Mussels (Sep 22, 2021)

The whole video was him putting a terrible stock cooler on and showing how it'd go bad, the BIOS being erratic and not obeying the temp limits was the real talking point


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## The red spirit (Sep 23, 2021)

ratirt said:


> The thermal capacity of the cooler is poor for something like OC'ed 10900K. No wonder it couldn't keep up.


Well sure it's clearly not adequate, but it's impressive that it did as well as this. Over 5Ghz on OEM aluminum pancake is nothing to scoff at.



lexluthermiester said:


> And there you go. NZXTs troubles have been more recent. BTW, That's a "K" series i5. Give that thing some OC love! It's built for it. You should be able to get 4.8ghz all-core with minimal effort and minimal extra heat.


It's NZXT, they never had proper QC and engineering. I thought it was a common knowledge.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 23, 2021)

Ferd said:


> So clearly board manufacturers know the cpu will be fine above 100 C , what I don’t understand is intel’s own ratings , they still stick to 100C max on the website, is that playing it safe ? I also thought the chips are forced to throttle by dptf





Ferd said:


> Makes sense , they’re main concern should be the ability to provide enough power through vrms reliably, heat management is for the user to take care of
> 
> 
> Yet in that video nothing is stoping that cpu , guess we can’t blame nzxt , nor intel , perhaps it’s okay for overclocking oriented boards
> ...



In the Anandtech review I linked it shows that the firmware on this board is wonky AND that it can turn off safety features. 

As for Intel and its limitations, you can push beyond but you will degrade the CPU much faster. The limits are there to keep them in good order for a looong time. Hitting 100C still wont damage it 'much' but keep exceeding and it'll surely want more volts sooner rather than later. Also, you have to consider other ICs around the socket...



Mussels said:


> The whole video was him putting a terrible stock cooler on and showing how it'd go bad, the BIOS being erratic and not obeying the temp limits was the real talking point



Shame there is zero in depth info or research added to his conclusion the temp was 115C. Its all about clickbait really.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 23, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> It's NZXT, they never had proper QC and engineering.


That is an opinion only. You can't possibly know that.


The red spirit said:


> I thought it was a common knowledge.


It's not because that is assumption and rumor.


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## The red spirit (Sep 23, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That is an opinion only. You can't possibly know that.
> 
> It's not because that is assumption and rumor.


And they failed to make airflow in H510 case... To be honest, NZXT really has a reputation of shoddy engineering. With cases, fans, AIOs and now with boards, they have never striked me as dependable brand.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 23, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> To be honest, NZXT really has a reputation of shoddy engineering.


Only recently.


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## The red spirit (Sep 23, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Only recently.


Depends on how recently is your "recently", I haven't had a positive impression about them for a very long time, like since 2012 or so.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 23, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Depends on how recently is your "recently", I haven't had a positive impression about them for a very long time, like since 2012 or so.


That is your experience. Not everyone has had the same.


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## Ferd (Sep 24, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Hitting 100C still wont damage it 'much' but keep exceeding and it'll surely want more volts sooner rather than later. Also, you have to consider other ICs around the socket...


Yeah the vrms will probably fail earlier than they should ... that cpu is probably getting less and less efficient at those temps , pulling more and more power ..
As you said it’s a shame that he didn’t go in depth , I posted this out of curiosity and I got a lot of useful answers....


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## Vayra86 (Sep 24, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Depends on how recently is your "recently", I haven't had a positive impression about them for a very long time, like since 2012 or so.



NZXT is and has always been form over function... but never outright 'bad', even this board isn't bad, its just weird af. You're just paying a premium for unique design language and mediocre product.


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## The red spirit (Sep 24, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> NZXT is and has always been form over function... but never outright 'bad', even this board isn't bad, its just weird af. You're just paying a premium for unique design language and mediocre product.


And I perceive that as bad.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2021)

Ferd said:


> Yeah the vrms will probably fail earlier than they should ...


Lots of boards are built that way, not just NZXTs. And for the record, VRMs are designed to operate at a temp range of -140C to 170C, depending on the brand and specs. 110C is not going to do them any harm, short or long term. However, adding heatsinks to them is an option of anyone is not comfortable with that temp range.

EDIT: Forgot the " - " before the 140C to indicate a negative temp value..


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## Ferd (Sep 24, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Lots of boards are built that way, not just NZXTs. And for the record, VRMs are designed to operate at a temp range of 140C - 170C, depending on the brand and specs. 110C is not going to do them any harm, short or long term. However, adding heatsinks to them is an option of anyone is not comfortable with that temp range.


Yes , usually they hover around 115C “recommended rating “ , but there’s no specific number, each mosfet is designed differently and has a specific rating set by the manufacturer...
If I remember correctly smd mosfets have higher ratings, because they dissipate some heat through the pcb , but that can sometimes become a problem if there are other circuits dumping heat to the pcb , mosfets start absorbing heat from the board and adding that to their own heat leads to a drop in current capability (According to a few datasheets I’ve read before ) ... that’s the only reason I was thinking it could lead to problems, otherwise you’re right , most of the times they’re fine


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## The red spirit (Sep 24, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Lots of boards are built that way, not just NZXTs. And for the record, VRMs are designed to operate at a temp range of 140C - 170C, depending on the brand and specs. 110C is not going to do them any harm, short or long term. However, adding heatsinks to them is an option of anyone is not comfortable with that temp range.


I highly disagree with that. If you break down VRMs by components and look at their lifespan ratings at specific temperatures, you will most likely going to see 50k hours at 85 or 105C. Also chokes, caps and MOSFETs have like massively higher lifespan for each degree lost. Just losing 10C can make them last 150k hours. Here is Asus being cheerful about doing VRM lifespan calculations:


			ASUS Motherboard - 78 Times Longer Lifespan than Expected!
		


If you go above 105C, then your VRM lifespan is cut dramatically. At 150-170C range VRMs start to discolour, distort or straight up melt PCB. 140-170C is absolutely not acceptable and is way out of spec. 110C is bearable, obviously poor temperature, but shouldn't fail exactly fast, still board with such temps will not last long. Not to mention, that higher temperatures lead to less efficiency, which further increases temperatures.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 24, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I highly disagree with that.


You may disagree all you want. The manufacturing specs will just smile and keep right on going.


The red spirit said:


> Also chokes, caps and MOSFETs have like massively higher lifespan for each degree lost.


I didn't mention those parts, I was talking exclusively about Voltage Regulation Modules. Other parts have their own tolerances.


The red spirit said:


> If you go above 105C, then your VRM lifespan is cut dramatically.


That depends on how they are made, what they are made of and who is making them. MOST motherboard makers choose VRMs that have the upper temp range tolerances. 105C is nothing to many of them.


The red spirit said:


> At 150-170C range VRMs start to discolour, distort or straight up melt PCB.


That is complete BS. Leave the engineering to the experts.


The red spirit said:


> 140-170C is absolutely not acceptable and is way out of spec.


Ok. Sure thing there..



The red spirit said:


> ASUS Motherboard - 78 Times Longer Lifespan than Expected!


BTW, that is a page talking about capacitors(electrolytic VS Solid State), not VRMs. Stop with the deceptive posting or the mods will be asked to rope you in.


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## The red spirit (Sep 24, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You may disagree all you want. The manufacturing specs will just smile and keep right on going.


No manufacturing spec says that it's oaky to run VRMs at anywhere near 150C, let alone 170C. That's crazy.




lexluthermiester said:


> I didn't mention those parts, I was talking exclusively about Voltage Regulation Modules. Other parts have their own tolerances.


Dude, VRM contents are:
MOSFETs
chokes
capacitors
driver ICs

That's literally what your VRM consists of. With capacitors being the least tolerant of heat and with no way to dissipate it faster.




lexluthermiester said:


> That depends on how they are made, what they are made of and who is making them. MOST motherboard makers choose VRMs that have the upper temp range tolerances. 105C is nothing to many of them.


No capacitor will survive more than 105C for long. That's essentially a limit of how long they can last, 50k hours at 105C, assuming that they don't lie in specs. Maybe there are some rare and quite expensive more temperature resistant caps, but you will not find them on any affordable boards. Sometimes you will see only 85C 50k hours caps even. They must be low ESR too. MOSFETs also have similarly finite lifespans. It's obvious after looking at their data sheets.




lexluthermiester said:


> That is complete BS. Leave the engineering to the experts.


Any source to strengthen your claim?




lexluthermiester said:


> Ok. Sure thing there..


I bet you never had your VRMs that hot and have no idea what happens if they get that hot. 




lexluthermiester said:


> BTW, that is a page talking about capacitors(electrolytic VS Solid State), not VRMs. Stop with the deceptive posting or the mods will be asked to rope you in.


Caps are a part of VRM, so wtf are you talking about here? How is that deceptive? Have you ever seen motherboard?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm done arguing. Believe whatever you want..


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## The red spirit (Sep 25, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'm done arguing. Believe whatever you want..


I don't think that you have any sources to confirm your claims and you seem to not even be aware of VRM components. Not to mention that you have an attitude.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 25, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I don't think that you have any sources to confirm your claims and you seem to not even be aware of VRM components.


Why would I bother? All you're going to do a pick it apart and discount it like you do to everyone else. So no, not going to waste my time.


The red spirit said:


> Not to mention that you have an attitude.


Sure do...


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## The red spirit (Sep 26, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> So no, not going to waste my time.


I wish that you would actually learn instead of spreading misinformation. You know, I have burnt motherboard at 159C on VRM area. Anyway, there are main resources about learning about VRM temperatures matters and why it matters and what is optimal temperature:

























TL;DR
Most VRMs are not designed for high temperatures, many of them throttle badly if they reach more than 100C. Temperatures above 110C are very degrading (if throttling doesn't kick in yet) and must be avoided. For long term usage, generally you want to stay at no more than 85-95C range. Obviously lower temperatures are always preferred as lower temperatures mean longer lifespan.

Here's a simple explanation of VRM components:








						What is VRM and How it Affects CPU Performance - Make Tech Easier
					

Your motherboard's VRM is a crucial but underappreciated piece of hardware. Find out what a VRM is, and how it affects processor performance.




					www.maketecheasier.com
				




And a bit more advanced one:





						[Tutorial] Graphics Card Voltage Regulator Module (VRM) Explained | Geeks3D
					

[Tutorial] Graphics Card Voltage Regulator Module (VRM) Explained




					www.geeks3d.com
				




TL;DR
They are just MOSFETs, inductors and capacitors, which together make a buck converter.

Here is more info about buck converter:








						Buck converter - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




And there are many other sources saying that MOSFETs have maximum operating temperature of 150C, but that is not for long term usage. Capacitors are rated for 85C or 105C and are susceptible to soaking up heat from MOSFETs and CPU nearby. Exceeding that leads to accelerated damage (I will link very advanced paper about that). It's not that heat just kills them, but it can ruin ESR, capacitance characteristics, therefore they may run out of manufacturer's specification, if not cooled properly. There are special capacitors made for hot environments and those can survive 175C, 200C, but no motherboard maker uses those. Inductors are commonly rated up to 125C. Concluding all that, capacitors are usually a weak link, meanwhile MOSFETs heat up the most. Despite some parts in VRM being able to handle higher heat output, you shall not exceed rated temperature of capacitors. Sorry mate, but 140-170C is not acceptable temperature and at that point PCB gets brown and could warp. PCBs are only rated to withstand 135C, meanwhile improved ones, can survive 150C. Anything more and you will eventually reach one of several failure points, including loss of strength, warping, distorted circuits on it, uneven expansion of materials on it, oxidation. 

Additional resources:


			https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/calculating-the-lifespan-of-electrolytic-capacitors-with-de-rating/
		



			https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/tec2.pdf
		









						A question about capacitor type and temperature limits
					

Is it possible for a 100u or 10u electrolytic capacitor to operate at -30C ambient temperature?  What type of capacitors can this be replaced for such low temperatures to operate fine and better




					electronics.stackexchange.com
				











						Basic Electronics 19 – Properties of inductors
					

Learn about different technical specifications of inductors like self-resonant frequency, electromagnetic interference, DC current, DC resistance, etc.




					www.engineersgarage.com
				





			https://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/AGP0000/AGP0000CE1.pdf
		






						PCB Temperature
					






					www.goldphoenixpcb.com
				











						Electrolytic capacitors determine the lifetime of a power supply
					

Electrolytic capacitors are an essential ingredient in AC-DC power supplies, providing high Capacitance x Voltage (CV) and low Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) in low-volume packages that simply cannot be achieved cost-effectively using alternative parts. The service life of these electrolytic...




					www.xppower.com
				





BTW there's one cool trick, for each 10C reduced, capacitors' lifespan doubles


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## Mussels (Sep 27, 2021)

105C is the max i've seen before throttling over the years on VRM's regardless of brand, design, or knowing jack shit about the electronics in use


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 27, 2021)

Mussels said:


> 105C is the max i've seen before throttling


That's on the CPU dies themselves, not the voltage delivery system powering them.


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## Mussels (Sep 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's on the CPU dies themselves, not the voltage delivery system powering them.


No, that's VRMs. I've been sticking temp probes and using IR thermometers on them for over a decade with OC'ing adventures. Until recently going past 100C on various components just outright killed boards, so it was something to be wary of when using watercooling or AIOs.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 28, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Until recently going past 100C on various components just outright killed boards


Hold that thought;




These temps were verified with a laser thermometer. They run that hot all the time. This isn't even under load. Granted, they run a bit warmer without the VRM heatsink on. Some parts run that hot by design. It's not unusual.


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## Ferd (Sep 28, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Inductors are commonly rated up to 125C


Inductor are a thick enameled copper wires , nothing serious to worry about... I would worry about the solder holding them to the pcb melting before they break , or the insulation layer burning and ruining their inductance



lexluthermiester said:


> These temp were verified with a laser thermometer


Sheesh , that’s a lil hot especially if it’s on idle


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## las (Sep 28, 2021)

Those temps are insane. Something is not right for sure.


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## The red spirit (Sep 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Hold that thought;
> View attachment 218480
> These temp were verified with a laser thermometer. They run that hot all the time. This isn't even under load. Granted, they run a bit warmer without the VRM heatsink on. Some parts run that hot by design. It's not unusual.


That's way beyond okay. Something is definitely wrong there. I don't get temps like that in prime95 small FFT load ever. My VRM tops out at low 70s, CPU similar to VRMs. Even my graphics card and its VRMs don't ever get past low 70s. You have some lucky hardware sure, otherwise your computer would be at e-waste recycling already. Anyway, I find it really hard to believe that are are legit idle temperatures, even lowest end motherboards run at way lower temperatures at idle with way too powerful CPUs than they could reasonably handle. You say it was measured with laser thermometer, but over 100C at idle is bonkers.



Ferd said:


> Inductor are a thick enameled copper wires , nothing serious to worry about... I would worry about the solder holding them to the pcb melting before they break , or the insulation layer burning and ruining their inductance


Don't they lose inductance once they get too hot?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 28, 2021)

Ferd said:


> Sheesh , that’s a lil hot especially if it’s on idle





las said:


> Those temps are insane. Something is not right for sure.


Not really. Again, some parts are designed to run that hot. It's fine. You should see the temps industrial electronics run at. That would tweak your melon..


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## The red spirit (Sep 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not really. Again, some parts are designed to run that hot. It's fine. You should see the temps industrial electronics run at. That would tweak your melon..


Another poor argument. Computers are different for each purpose and have specific temperature ranges:





						Operating temperature - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Anyway, at idle your temps are too high. I would suspect broken sensor somewhere and tons of thermal throttling under load.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 28, 2021)

Although in the past most motherboards used generic capacitors rated at 125°c, in more recent years mlcc capacitors are more widely used which can be rated up to 200°c

Same for many inductors temperature ratings have gone up to the 200°c mark. Many motherboard manufacturers advertise military grade components ( in my experience this means it will break faster) I'm Guessing it's another way of saying they have higher working temperatures though saying this no typical domestic electronics should be run past the 100°c mark for any length of time.


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## The red spirit (Sep 28, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Although in the past most motherboards used generic capacitors rated at 125°c, in more recent years mlcc capacitors are more widely used which can be rated up to 200°c


MLCCs are nothing new. I have ATi X800 Pro from 2004 and it had MLCCs on it. It still works. But as far as motherboards go, most of them are still with electrolytic caps and rated at no more than 105C. Electrolytics are still used even on expensive boards. Intel CPUs and sockets have MLCCs, but at VRMs they still use electrolytics. Thus barely anything has changed, only in very hot locations, they put better caps. VRMs, just like before, still can't stand high temperatures. 




ThaiTaffy said:


> Same for many inductors temperature ratings have gone up to the 200°c mark. Many motherboard manufacturers advertise military grade components ( in my experience this means it will break faster) I'm Guessing it's another way of saying they have higher working temperatures though saying this no typical domestic electronics should be run past the 100°c mark for any length of time.


That's just (MSI?) marketing. They don't know how to market low end boards, so they give them Ultra Durable, Military Grade or other meaningless name, meanwhile on them you can find the most anemic looking (as well as performing) VRMs. There's nothing exceptionally durable or reliable in those cheap junkers. Board makers don't even care if CPUs throttle with those boards, as that's technically not a fail. They don't care if VRM is frying itself to death, as long as that thing somewhat functions, it passes their QA. 

Currently, sad situation with LGA 1200 boards is nearly identical to what happened in AM3+ era, when many boards throttled with FX 8350s. Some were exploding, some had melted PCBs, some caught on fire. Lower end boards didn't last at all. I went through 3 boards, they all died after 2-3 years and I only had FX 6300.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 28, 2021)

The majority of brands use the marketing ultra durable and military grade Asus have done for many many years. As far as e-caps having a max rating of 105°c was a long time ago and mainly due to the polymer not so much the electrolyte now with especially the automotive industry pushing the temps of components it's easy to find 150°c tantalum e-caps.

Also I'm still replacing wax paper capacitors in some projects to this day so mlcc caps are reasonably new to me.


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## The red spirit (Sep 28, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> The majority of brands use the marketing ultra durable and military grade Asus have done for many many years. As far as e-caps having a max rating of 105°c was a long time ago and mainly due to the polymer not so much the electrolyte now with especially the automotive industry pushing the temps of components it's easy to find 150°c tantalum e-caps.


That's car industry, they absolutely need that, meanwhile motherboard makers still use 105C caps, sometimes 85C caps. I'm not even sure what's the point of continuing this discussion. It's no brainer that VRMs are sensitive to heat and if it's not caps, then MOSFETs shouldn't exceed 105C. Maybe you can find 125C caps, that's great, but that doesn't mean that rest of VRM or PCB can handle high temperatures as well.


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## Mussels (Sep 29, 2021)

x58 was flagship. all premium parts... and *any* x58 still running to this day, had to have been made with quality components, or aggressive thermal throttling (and a lot of boards back then had really, REALLY bad thermal throttling with only one off-centered sensor)


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 29, 2021)

Mussels said:


> x58 was flagship. all premium parts... and *any* x58 still running to this day, had to have been made with quality components, or aggressive thermal throttling (and a lot of boards back then had really, REALLY bad thermal throttling with only one off-centered sensor)


Or like the Dell range for that time, the cooling was over-engineered. I've never had a CPU in any of my Tx500 series PC overheat. The closest I got was when I was OCing my W3680 to 4.1ghz and it topped out at 78C.


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## Ferd (Sep 29, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Don't they lose inductance once they get too hot?


It’s possible if the coating on the wires burns ,tbh  I have no idea what is the exact temps at which the coating starts to burn , and it can vary depending on the coat quality and thickness of the layers applied , chokes are the last thing to worry about imo , but they can easily become a problem when they start dumping heat to other smd through the layers of the pcb


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## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2021)

Ferd said:


> It’s possible if the coating on the wires burns ,tbh  I have no idea what is the exact temps at which the coating starts to burn , and it can vary depending on the coat quality and thickness of the layers applied , chokes are the last thing to worry about imo , but they can easily become a problem when they start dumping heat to other smd through the layers of the pcb


They are likely not a problem, but I meant overheating and loss of inductance in temporal matter. I remember that in physics class we were taught that magnets lose their forces if heated, so I wonder if that's true for inductor. It's not a permanent magnet, but once electricity flows it becomes a temporary magnet.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 29, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> They are likely not a problem, but I meant overheating and loss of inductance in temporal matter. I remember that in physics class we were taught that magnets lose their forces if heated, so I wonder if that's true for inductor. It's not a permanent magnet, but once electricity flows it becomes a temporary magnet.


Higher the temp greater the nanoHenry/Ohms


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## Ferd (Sep 29, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> They are likely not a problem, but I meant overheating and loss of inductance in temporal matter. I remember that in physics class we were taught that magnets lose their forces if heated, so I wonder if that's true for inductor. It's not a permanent magnet, but once electricity flows it becomes a temporary magnet.


Oh I see , well that’s a problem too , expect it is not as serious as other problems , mainly internal resistance starts causing problems before the inductance starts to go out of spec
And it’s very minimal if I remember correctly it’s something like 2% increase in resistance for every 5 degrees Celsius increase in temperature


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 29, 2021)

And  a 5°c rise causes 0.015% rise in inductance not a drop temporal or not


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