# Soundcard vs USB DAC



## Stinger2K (Nov 21, 2015)

Which is better?
I'm looking for a device that will provide me with an optical output for my HTPC, so I could plug it to my reciever.


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## Kursah (Nov 21, 2015)

Well honestly in your case, I'd use a digital output to your receiver from your sound card. Use something like EqualizerAPO if you want to tune the sound before the receiver or just handle it with the receiver.

I use a USB DAC and AMP for my headphones, but my previous setup was running optical to my Denon AVR-1613...which has since been relegated to entertainment center duties.

I don't see you getting much benefit from an external dac, unless you have a truly crappy sound card...but using an optical signal should pass through as bits (0's,1's) so you shouldn't deal with much processing from your onboard audio, leaving your receiver to act as the DAC instead. You don't provide system specs, but it has been quite a while since I've seen an HTPC build not use a board that already had optical out. If that is the case here, which it seems it might be judging by your post...I'd try to keep everything internal to the HTPC and use a cheap sound card like a cheaper Asus xonar or whatever will fit. 

Give us some more info on your current build if you would please and welcome to TPU!


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## Stinger2K (Nov 22, 2015)

Hey, thank you for the welcome and response.
My onboard sound-card produces bad sound quality and distortions (realtek), it is an old motherboard without an optical output.
I have seen some external USB dac+amps that do provide optical outputs and also replaceable OP-AMPs but if the receiver is going to be acting as the DAC this is all useless right? if that's the case am I better off with a simple soundcard like the Xonar DG (these are pretty cheap second hand) or even unbranded sound cards from ebay?


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## Kursah (Nov 22, 2015)

I'd go with a cheap Asus or even old creative card, there's some HT Omega cards that are pretty good..but if you're using digital out you're pretty much bypassing most of what cards do to the signal...though some can force EQ on that output still which is handy.


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 22, 2015)

I would recommend upgrading to an HDMI receiver and feed it an HDMI signal (up to 7.1 PCM).  Doing this will use the DAC in the receiver which is likely far better than anything you can reasonably get for a computer.  Optical/coaxial is limited to stereo lossless or 5.1 lossy.


I don't like any sound cards that are available on the market right now.  USB DACs tend to be better than internal DACs but the selection in terms of more channels than stereo is extremely limited/not good.


TL;DR:
2 channels = USB DAC/AMP
>2 channels = HDMI receiver


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## Stinger2K (Nov 22, 2015)

I would love to upgrade to an HDMI reciever however I am trying to make use of an old JVC reciever that I already have lying around.


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## Jetster (Nov 22, 2015)

Stinger2K said:


> Which is better?
> I'm looking for a device that will provide me with an optical output for my HTPC, so I could plug it to my reciever.



If your running optical it doesn't matter. A USB DAC will give you the same digital signal as a sound card.

Optical has limitations. HDMI as mentioned would be better

So a ASUS Xonar DG would work fine


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## Musician (Nov 27, 2015)

asus xonar essence ST, STX or ZXR + premuim headphones
for clearest sound quality


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## Batou1986 (Nov 27, 2015)

I would go with the soundcard, USB DSP's can be kind of hit an miss


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## FordGT90Concept (Nov 28, 2015)

Jetster said:


> A USB DAC will give you the same digital signal as a sound card.


USB can be electrically isolated from the computer while the sound card is in the thick of it.  Additionally, DACs run cool; computers are hot.


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## hat (Nov 28, 2015)

If you are going to use optical, the sound card doesn't matter. You could even use onboard sound. Optical will pass the digital signal to the receiver for processing, and everything will happen there.

Optical will be fine for Stereo. Optical will do up to 5.1, if you use Dolby or DTS... but that's really only for movies. If you want greater than Stereo audio without using something like Dolby or DTS, you need to use HDMI.


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## hat (Nov 30, 2015)

I thought I'd post this side-question here, since it is somewhat relevant.

Sound cards are, or at least, were, able to offload the sound processing from the CPU over to the sound card. In the case of SPDIF, or HDMI, where the digital signal is passed along to an external receiver, there shouldn't be any sound processing on the computer at all (barring any effects that may be present on the computer, like CMSS, crystalizer, etc), right?

What if you're passing along Dolby/DTS audio to the receiver? Does the computer decode that, or is it done on the receiver?


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## Jetster (Dec 1, 2015)

The only information that can be changed at the PC level is the number of channels. There is no processing that I'm aware of until it reaches the DAC.
I had an issue one time with the wrong sound driver in the card and was only getting two channels instead of eight. So DTS was not working at all.


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## Toothless (Dec 1, 2015)

Musician said:


> asus xonar essence ST, STX or ZXR + premuim headphones
> for clearest sound quality


Ran that, sounded worse than my onboard audio from my motherboard.

@OP can you fill out your specs so we can see what kind of hardware we're dealing with?


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## MxPhenom 216 (Dec 1, 2015)

Musician said:


> asus xonar essence ST, STX or ZXR + premuim headphones
> for clearest sound quality



The key with high end headphones is the amperage being fed to them. I don't know what type of amp is in those sound cards, but an external amp is usually the best way to go like a FiiO.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 1, 2015)

hat said:


> Sound cards are, or at least, were, able to offload the sound processing from the CPU over to the sound card. In the case of SPDIF, or HDMI, where the digital signal is passed along to an external receiver, there shouldn't be any sound processing on the computer at all (barring any effects that may be present on the computer, like CMSS, crystalizer, etc), right?


There is sound processing in the computer, yes.  For example, if you enable "All Speakers," the CPU is applying the effect before sending the PCM wave signal.



hat said:


> What if you're passing along Dolby/DTS audio to the receiver? Does the computer decode that, or is it done on the receiver?


The computer encodes it and the receiver decodes it.  The above still applies.


Remember that PCM is audio in its rawest digital format.  It doesn't contain any header information telling the DAC to do this or that.  All the DAC does is convert the sound (represented as bits) into an actual wave (driving speakers).  Sound cards usually have an APU (Audio Processor Unit) in addition to the DAC.


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## R-T-B (Dec 1, 2015)

Kinda on topic:

Today, I noticed a background buzz sound in game menus.  Started in Elite Dangerous, and once I heard it, I couldn't tune it out, and began to hear it everywhere when using 3d clocks.  Turns out my supposedly "electrically isolated" sound section of my fancy gigabyte mobo is picking up on when my GPU throttles up, in particular on high FPS menu scenes that aren't vsynced.  I don't have a DAC lying around, but there is one built into my viewsonic monitor.  It sounds loads better dumping the HDMI bitstream to that and letting it process it.

I'm seriously questioning why onboard sound is a thing at all, as I supposedly have one of the best isolated ones available on a z170 mobo in reviews.

2 questions, semi on topic:

1.)  Is what I am experiencing with my gigabyte mobo "normal?"

2.)  What would I gain by using a DAC that costs a little more than the probably 5 buck on in my monitor?  Keep in mind I am no audiophile, and use a $50 set of headphones (well reviewed, but still).


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 1, 2015)

Onboard sound is more than enough in 95% of cases.  I have my Klipsch 5.1s plugged into the Realtek onboard in my system and it handily beats the HT|OMEGA Striker 7.1 I had (it had similar problems to what you described).

Obvious noise in onboard audio is not "normal."

USB DAC?  Not much other than isolation.  The big gains come from an amp and analog volume control.  Do you need a really fancy amp?  Not unless a) you need a lot of volume or b) your speakers/headphones are difficult to drive.

For headphones, your average in computer DAC is good enough.


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## Ferrum Master (Dec 1, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> The key with high end headphones is the amperage being fed to them. I don't know what type of amp is in those sound cards, but an external amp is usually the best way to go like a FiiO.



Not only the amperage lol. It is like you only need gasoline to drive... without a car. Don't recommend such vague things that you actually don't know.

Note. High Independence - like my Beyerdynamic DT-150 needs higher voltage thus drive the set with lower distortion. And lower ones needs specially low output Z thus thus gain the same lower distortion. There is always balancing and trade-offs.

Each device is constructed for their own task. Some internal sound cards and DAC have dedicated headphone amplifier section, some just rely on venerable POS 4556, some just don't have such thing at all like me Ti HD, I don't need it. I use Tube OTL amp for headphones if I really wan't something tasty.

HDMI vs Toslink vs USB.

Depends on... drivers... each of them has some funny things connected to sync, jitter and interrupts. Okay, you may think it is digital... but that doesn't exclude crackles, pop ups and driver stupid on forced re-sampling etc things, that suddenly starts living on your own. HDMI now seems to be most stable, but those are only for AV devices, and the royalties pay... no no. But the latter two tend to make funny things on some funny hardware/software setups. USB suffers when you use many devices and if you have some nasty device and it suddenly chokes up, like external HDD spinning up, DPC latency spikes so much and it gives a pop in speakers. It only may occur once a week... but I despise it. I had some(like 3-4) poor motherboards, that despite the isolation, it caused noise, you could hear mouse moving, it could be anything, resonation in inductors, piezoelectrics in some caps, interference, bad power supply on mobo etc. TOSLINK is stable on creative cards, had some issues on Realtek, like pop ups during boot, sync loss, issues setting right bitrate mode, Xonar's had some trouble in switching sample rates, C-Media horrid drivers. And yes, only for stereo. But... it offers great lengths for placing up stuff thou... It is a valuable argument vs USB in your case especially.

Most of peps lately just take some SB-Z (due to Surround, DTS etc features that some like) and via toslink to external DAC. So they get the best of both worlds.

Personally I? I still stick to fully analog setup... Robust as hell, zero issues, each part is handpicked and checked in my route from A to Z. And that is why I am still sitting on my old card... there aren't really better DAC's in the wild that I like sound wise... PCM1794A is still my favorite and it is old as shaite... The audio industry is kind of on ice producing rubbish crap(like Beats) instead of really making affordable the custom DAC's and DSP's.

On hardware assisted audio, that is dead only on PC and thank Microsoft to that.

Meanwhile... we don't see real audio processors anymore in the PC area. Some say the CPU is enough... yes it is for general usage kitten videos, but that doesn't solve the latency issues using some audio tasks, like even simple crossover... in heavy multitasking scenarios, like gaming even. There are no info how really the CPU chews the audio data(in how many cycles). There are audio DSP CPU's like SHARC, TI DA series seen in very pricey AV systems... and... Qualcomm Hexagon as a prime example as one the most evolving things lately in my books... due to nature of mobile industry... Yes CPU is enough, but a general purpose CPU will never as good a specialized one. The Snapdragons start to evolve so that they have one, and it is really nice design wise. It is thought out from the start, that audio tasks for human being will be always processed and thus requiring attention in processing, due to possible power savings and efficiency increase to load off main cores, as they are tweaked to do many things in one CPU cycle and less time a win win situation.

Conclusion.

For HTPC... use only HDMI, or get a any Creative/Asus card that has DTS etc processing license. Many people use it, as their AV device also is capable of understanding it, and most integrated audio chips without hacks don't work with that.

Headphones? Music? Use a special external device. Coupled and picked up basing on the specs of each other. USB preferred lately...

Headphones? Gaming? Use a sound card via SPDIF to external device, or pick up a sound card with a decent headphone amplifier... you can stick up many effects etc things that the cards offer, and some find them useful.

Kitten videos - don't care... even a AM transmitter is fine.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 1, 2015)

I'd amend gaming (>stereo):
if cheap, just use onboard
if expensive, use HDMI to receiver

I can't recommend sound cards anymore.  

Personally, I prefer stereo headphones for gaming.  They tell you what you need to know.


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## Ferrum Master (Dec 1, 2015)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I can't recommend sound cards anymore.
> 
> Personally, I prefer stereo headphones for gaming.  They tell you what you need to know.



Yea agree on the first one. If you still have one, use it... albeit on ebay... creative titaniums can be fetched for 15-20$... I ain't a bad deal... their win10 drivers are okay now too.

About gaming on headphones... How you can do it for longer time like few hours... the sweat, I get neck pain also, as you have to hold them on for long... For music you just lie comfy in chair holding your head against it... But in gaming you tend to take such stressed poses sometimes . Well... usually you are killing someone... no wonders the beast awakens.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 1, 2015)

I only take mine off when I leave the computer and I generally only leave the computer for three reasons: food, restroom, drink.  I often I don't even realize I have them on.  I even habitually put them on when I sit down even if my speakers are going.


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## R-T-B (Dec 1, 2015)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Obvious noise in onboard audio is not "normal."



It's not really "obvious" but it's hardly ignorable once you hear it at the same time.

Hmmm...  Now I have to debate if a little hiss in my onboard audio is worth an RMA to gigabyte..  Thanks... I guess.


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## Ferrum Master (Dec 1, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> It's not really "obvious" but it's hardly ignorable once you hear it at the same time.
> 
> Hmmm...  Now I have to debate if a little hiss in my onboard audio is worth an RMA to gigabyte..  Thanks... I guess.



I bet the hiss is either unmuted MIC input. Or poor cables, inproper cable wiring (ground shield only from one side). Very high gain second pre-amplifier stage.


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## R-T-B (Dec 1, 2015)

Ferrum Master said:


> I bet the hiss is either unmuted MIC input. Or poor cables, inproper cable wiring (ground shield only from one side). Very high gain second pre-amplifier stage.



Not unfiltered mic input, as that would still apply when switching to my monitors DAC.

It could be the others I guess.  But I mean, I'm hooking into the back panel of my mobo, not sure how much more direct it gets.  Plus it only happens when my GPU reaches 3d clocks.


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## Moofachuka (Dec 1, 2015)

so far I'm pretty happy with my X7 LE's


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## Musician (Dec 2, 2015)

in all sites, the stx is the best sound card ever
forget that dac\amp. the stx gives all that


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## Musician (Dec 2, 2015)

Toothless said:


> Ran that, sounded worse than my onboard audio from my motherboard.
> 
> @OP can you fill out your specs so we can see what kind of hardware we're dealing with?



are you sure that your onboard gives clearer sound than the STX?


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## Toothless (Dec 2, 2015)

Musician said:


> are you sure that your onboard gives clearer sound than the STX?


I can't remember which one it was to be honest.


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## Musician (Dec 2, 2015)

the essence STX (133$)


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## Stinger2K (Dec 5, 2015)

i have read that in the case of using optical, the type of sound card doesn't matter because the reciever will do the decoding and digital analog conversion.

but is that really true? there is no strict answer about this topic. some claim there is a difference in terms of quality and some claim there isn't.



basically my question is, when going optical, what will be the difference between a 50$, and a 200~300$ sound card?


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## R-T-B (Dec 5, 2015)

Stinger2K said:


> i have read that in the case of using optical, the type of sound card doesn't matter because the reciever will do the decoding and digital analog conversion.



Spot on.  There is no difference:  It's a binary bitstream, so there can't be.  The DAC does all the work and the burden will be shifted to your receiver.


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