# Microsoft Locks System Updates for Windows 7, 8.1 on Ryzen, Kaby Lake Systems



## Raevenlord (Mar 16, 2017)

It would seem Microsoft is ever looking for more creative ways of pushing its Windows 10 operating system towards the masses. Some Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 users have apparently encountered one of these: a lock on system updates. The error message, which reads "Your PC uses a processor that isn't supported on this version of Windows", points towards a hardware lock-in in exchange for added security and updates.

 A Microsoft Support page sheds some light on this issue: that Windows 10 is the only Microsoft operating system to support particular hardware configurations. Namely, systems based on Intel's "seventh (7th)-generation processors or a later generation" (Kaby Lake); "AMD seventh (7th)-generation ("Bristol Ridge") processor or a later generation"; and "Qualcomm "8996" processor or a later generation". This move on Windows 7 might make some sense; however, Windows 8.1 is still in its lease of life (and Microsoft support) until at least 2018.



 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Divide Overflow (Mar 16, 2017)

Isn't Ryzen running faster on a "non-supported" OS version than a "supported" one?
So much for MS support!


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 16, 2017)

Isn't this illegal?

You pay for this pos OS and are to receive updates as long as m$ supports the OS. They're defrauding customers. There's no technical reason.

I bet it doesn't say this if I install windows 8 on a pentium 1 (assuming I had enough ram).


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## XNine (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> Isn't this illegal?
> 
> You pay for this pos OS and are to receive updates as long as m$ supports the OS. They're defrauding customers. There's no technical reason
> 
> I bet it doesn't say this if I install windows 8 on a pentium 1 (assuming I had enough ram).




There's a very good technical reason, actually.  MS doesn't have persistent advertising riddling 7 and 8.  What better way to sink your ad generating claws into a consumer by forcing them to upgrade to their OS?


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## Vayra86 (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> Isn't this illegal?
> 
> You pay for this pos OS and are to receive updates as long as m$ supports the OS. They're defrauding customers. There's no technical reason.
> 
> I bet it doesn't say this if I install windows 8 on a pentium 1 (assuming I had enough ram).



No? When you bought Windows 7 or 8 you didn't have a Ryzen. You had a full year to upgrade to 10 if you had such a license. There is no realistic reason left to build a new Ryzen system and buy or use a license that is outdated and was intended for a different system not even considering the fact that your OEM license will be locked to your old motherboard and thus platform while Ryzen is on a new socket, and even if you have a full (non OEM/builders) license, you also had a free upgrade opportunity that you explicitly chose not to use.

Your choice to stay on 7 or 8 is entirely your own.

Nonetheless this 'no 7/8 support for new CPUs' is a complete non issue regardless, for 18-20 EUR you've got yourself a new license for 10, and the idea that you need to stay on 7 or 8 for whatever reason makes no sense when you build a new system.

It may also be worth noticing that the official support for 7 has already ended in 2015 and for 8 will end in 2018, all it gets now is 'extended' support which means critical security patches and that is all.

And here is the kicker: Microsoft has a best-in-business support cycle for its OS versions.


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 16, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> No? When you bought Windows 7 or 8 you didn't have a Ryzen. You had a full year to upgrade to 10 if you had such a license. There is no realistic reason left to build a new Ryzen system and buy or use a license that is outdated and was intended for a different system not even considering the fact that your OEM license will be locked to your old motherboard and thus platform while Ryzen is on a new socket, and even if you have a full (non OEM/builders) license, you also had a free upgrade opportunity that you explicitly chose not to use.
> 
> Your choice to stay on 7 or 8 is entirely your own.
> 
> ...



You didn't negate anything. You're just a m$ apologist.

The reason doesn't matter. You paid for it meaning you can use on the hardware you want. We should start killing phone apps if you don't buy a new phone to run them on.


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## YukikazeQ (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> Isn't this illegal?
> 
> You pay for this pos OS and are to receive updates as long as m$ supports the OS. They're defrauding customers. There's no technical reason.
> 
> I bet it doesn't say this if I install windows 8 on a pentium 1 (assuming I had enough ram).


"m$ supports the OS" MS doesn't support the OS on that hardware and support for anything but critical security updates ended for 7 in 2015. Also you couldn't install 8 on a p1 anyway because NX support is required to install 8.


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 16, 2017)

YukikazeQ said:


> "m$ supports the OS" MS doesn't support the OS on that hardware and support for anything but critical security updates ended for 7 in 2015. Also you couldn't install 8 on a p1 anyway because NX support is required to install 8.



Again, there's no reason other than to force people to upgrade.

Also, you can install without NX, but that's not the point. You're side stepping the point.


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## kruk (Mar 16, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> No? When you bought Windows 7 or 8 you didn't have a Ryzen.



This really isn't important for those who purchased a retail version of Windows 7. They are ending support *3 years prematurely* for the customers who bought/will buy Ryzen/Kaby Lake. It's *none of their business* on what type of CPU I install my retail Windows 7 copy. It's also *none of their business* why I *didn't upgrade to Windows 10*. End of story.


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## HD64G (Mar 16, 2017)

A purely evil decision, clearly related to their need to push their spyware OS and beyond any logic about getting more money by selling licences for Win10, as they gave it away for "free" in 2016. Blocking Win8.1 for example isn't legal even, as it is supported for updates. And sw updates have nothing to do with which CPU anyone has in its PC.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> You didn't negate anything. You're just a m$ apologist.
> 
> The reason doesn't matter. You paid for it meaning you can use on the hardware you want. We should start killing phone apps if you don't buy a new phone to run them on.



The reasons do matter.

You paid for a Windows VERSION number with a LIMITED support period of which in the case of 7, that support ended two years ago. It's really that simple.

Also, your phone app analogy is extremely flawed. There are TONS OF APPS that do not work unless you update your Android OS. And many, MANY phones don't get Android OS updates, hell this is one of the primary criticisms Android has always siuffered from, and one of the main reasons my phone is a Nexus 5 which gets stock Android directly from Google itself.

That is also why I said that Microsoft's lifecycle policy is one of the best in the business. And it really is, only MacOSX comes close to it. And when you look at W7 enterprise and embedded, it is truly unsurpassed. The only other OS in the world with a longer lfecycle is Linux, which is community driven for the most part.

Last, no need to get all touchy and personal at all....


                                                        Full support     VS    Extended (security only)
  Windows XP	 	 14 april 2009	     8 april 2014
  Windows Vista		 10 april 2012	    11 april 2017
  Windows 7*		 13 januari 2015	    14 januari 2020
  Windows 8	 	          9 januari 2018	    10 januari 2023

Now, we could have a debate on dropping the support for 8, but when it comes to 'is this illegal'.... I strongly doubt you'll get Microsoft convicted because of all the reasons I posted earlier.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

I'm building a manual updates usb key for Win 7 64bit now, I have one for 32bit already (No Telemetry).

Vayra86, I put custom roms in my G900T, the One thing I can't stand is AOSP gui, it's too basic and seems limited on functionality, feels like iOS.


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## TheOne (Mar 16, 2017)

Can you smell the desperation?

Not surprising since Win10's numbers have slowly been decreasing lately, Ryzen should have boosted them, but with the reports that it is faster in Win7 it may have lead people away.


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 16, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> The reasons do matter.
> 
> You paid for a Windows VERSION number with a LIMITED support period of which in the case of 7, that support ended two years ago. It's really that simple.
> 
> ...



Boy, you just ignored the point, again (as if I said anything about android or software updates when what I meant was hardware). You keep saying win 7 as if you have a point. You don't. Why does joe schmo with his 10 yr old dual core get updates, but I don't? You can't legitimately answer that, so you go off on tangents and say "support is ending soon."

Do us a favor and stop defending these assholes, mmkay?


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

TheOne said:


> Can you smell the desperation?
> 
> Not surprising since Win10's numbers have slowly been decreasing lately, Ryzen should have boosted them, but with the reports that it is faster in Win7 it may have lead people away.



What do you expect from a less demanding OS. MS should of just released Service packs with DX 12 etc and a theme creator for W7 users etc. MS has totally lost its way since W8


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## P4-630 (Mar 16, 2017)

If I want to upgrade and buy new computer hardware I'd like to decide myself what OS I want on it!!!


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

P4-630 said:


> If I want to upgrade and buy new computer hardware I'd like to decide myself what OS I want on it!!!



I feel the same lol. Instead of MS fixing the complexities of an OS they just launch a new one.


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## LDNL (Mar 16, 2017)

This is another illegal attempt by Micro$oft to force people to use their spyware operating system. If people want to run an older operating system, who cares. Last time they tried this with windows updates, they got fucked in court. Guess its time for round 2


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## iO (Mar 16, 2017)

Whats the fuss about? Its known for months that youll need Win10 for proper support on Kabylake and Ryzen.

Besides, someone will come up with an easy work around available really fast..


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## Shihab (Mar 16, 2017)

At this point, the urge to refuse giving Microsoft the acknowledgement that they can coerce consumers to do what they want is becoming the sole reason I'm staying away from 10 for personal use.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

iO said:


> Whats the fuss about? Its known for months that youll need Win10 for proper support on Kabylake and Ryzen.
> 
> Besides, someone will come up with an easy work around available really fast..



 yeah it is known as grabbing all the updates manually that work for your system that do not cause weirdness and putting them on a USB key


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## exodusprime1337 (Mar 16, 2017)

The butt hurt is real in this thread.  Entertaining.. butt real. lol


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## Darmok N Jalad (Mar 16, 2017)

So I guess I'm a little confused. Is it saying that if you have Kaby Lake or Ryzen, you won't get any updates of any kind on Win7/8? If that's true, I fear that that Windows 10 isn't going to slow the decline of PC sales, but accelerate it. I've been thinking about building my own PC lately, but the idea of using W10 just isn't very appealing.


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## siluro818 (Mar 16, 2017)

Now this is some BS :S


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## Shihab (Mar 16, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> yeah it is known as grabbing all the updates manually that work for your system that do not cause weirdness and putting them on a USB key



Until they bundle one of those security rollups with special update to the Update Agent making this platform check local. MS has shown to have little against including non-security "modifications" with security updates. Or eve simpler make all new MSU packages work that way.

It's becoming more and mroe difficult to trust MS when it comes to updates.


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## etayorius (Mar 16, 2017)

Win7 x64 is more than enough for me, i own no DX12 game in my list and Doom Multiplayer who i been playing obsessively supports Vulkan, which works on Win7. So no, i don't see myself using Win10 unless Bethesda (Or Rockstar) starts using DX12 and dumps everything else.... oh wait, Bethesda announced they will start using Vulkan in their next projects.


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## ssdpro (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> Isn't this illegal?
> 
> You pay for this pos OS and are to receive updates as long as m$ supports the OS. They're defrauding customers. There's no technical reason.
> 
> I bet it doesn't say this if I install windows 8 on a pentium 1 (assuming I had enough ram).


This is wild buffoonery and sets this thread off on the wrong track.  Reasons:
1)  "You pay for this pos OS".  If I believed Windows was a pos, I wouldn't buy it and use an alternative.  This is buffonery. 
2)  "are to receive updates as long as m$ supports the OS" Read the TOS/License Agreement.  MS has no obligation to distribute or provide updates for a retail or OEM version of Windows.  A security patch doesn't exist until it is created.  If such language was in the agreement you would have a limited right to something that doesn't exist or no quantity is known. 
3)  "they're defrauding customers".  Source?  Fraud is a legal term. 
4)  "there's no technical reason" Source? 

Also, if you read your Windows 7 or 8 retail agreement you will also see MS has the right to modify the terms at any time.  You agree to this by using the product.  People have to be reasonable in their arguments.  MS is greedy.  MS is constantly finding ways to be annoying.  MS screws up Windows updates.  MS created Zune.  MS spies on you under default settings in all versions of Windows.  MS really spies on you on default settings in W10.  MS is using a primary file system that is 24 years old.  With all that, is it the most universally accepted productive OS available?  Yes.  When you get bogged down in silly arguments you undermine the valid reasons to hold MS feet to fire for the sake of improvement.


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## wiyosaya (Mar 16, 2017)

TheOne said:


> Can you smell the desperation?
> 
> Not surprising since Win10's numbers have slowly been decreasing lately, Ryzen should have boosted them, but with the reports that it is faster in Win7 it may have lead people away.


Personally, I think this is the best comment on this story that I have seen. It is FASTER on Win 7. Why? Because M$ has been in the practice of releasing successively slower OSs over time. I have a dual core Opteron running Win XP x64 that boots faster than a 6-core Xeon 1650v2 on both Win 7 and Win 10.


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## las (Mar 16, 2017)

etayorius said:


> Win7 x64 is more than enough for me, i own no DX12 game in my list and Doom Multiplayer who i been playing obsessively supports Vulkan, which works on Win7. So no, i don't see myself using Win10 unless Bethesda (Or Rockstar) starts using DX12 and dumps everything else.... oh wait, Bethesda announced they will start using Vulkan in their next projects.



And thats because Bethesda often used OpenGL before and Vulkan is replacing OpenGL - Which is why Doom had Vulkan patch, but ran OpenGL on release. There will be loads of DX12 titles coming out. It will be the default game API like DX11 is now, it's only a matter of time. People will be forced to go Win 10 over time unless they hang on to old hardware and games.


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## chaosmassive (Mar 16, 2017)

suffice to say, M$ simply want to push all of their user to one big, nice, neat boxes of consumer in Windows 10 ecosystem
where M$ want to unload ads, steam-like apps, with untold amount of dollars revenue potentials
thats was the plan, but a hiccup happened with ryzen apparently defying M$ commandment, which windows 7 was forbidden for KL/Ryzen CPU
so M$ now need to 'fix' their master plan in order to hasten their vision !


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

Shihabyooo said:


> Until they bundle one of those security rollups with special update to the Update Agent making this platform check local. MS has shown to have little against including non-security "modifications" with security updates. Or eve simpler make all new MSU packages work that way.
> 
> It's becoming more and mroe difficult to trust MS when it comes to updates.




 I use The MS Defcon system By Ask Woody.com  4 all updates


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## alucasa (Mar 16, 2017)

Well, as someone who get to use Unix from time to time, I am just glad Windows exists.


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## Shihab (Mar 16, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> I use The MS Defcon system By Ask Woody.com  4 all updates



You and all of those who google their KBs before applying. I'm starting to wonder if anyone but that guy checks everything that comes out of Wupdate!

Still, I doubt that that would help, thanks to the "convenience" of update rollups.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

Shihabyooo said:


> You and all of those who google their KBs before applying. I'm starting to wonder if anyone but that guy checks everything that comes out of Wupdate!
> 
> Still, I doubt that that would help, thanks to the "convenience" of update rollups.



Yeah i dont use those, thats why im building my toolkit.


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## Shihab (Mar 16, 2017)

eidairaman1 said:


> Yeah i dont use those, thats why im building my toolkit.


Interesting! Care to expand?


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## xorbe (Mar 16, 2017)

That's just desperate.  Not the kind of company I want for my OS.


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## Hood (Mar 16, 2017)

How is it that those who claim to hate Microsoft's OS support and update policies, insist on using Windows 7 after support has officially ended?  I costs money to update obsolete software, are you willing to pay for it?  Windows 10 is a good OS, and it's "spyware" elements are easily avoided, if you take the time to learn instead of spending all your time  writing online rants.  Also, lack of online privacy is a fact of life, in case you haven't noticed, so don't do anything illegal and you won't have anything to worry about.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

Shihabyooo said:


> Interesting! Care to expand?



Just the updates that I fine combed on a usb drive with a batch script. A starters kit for 7 32bit users, i add additional updates when need be. Im now working on my 7 64 kit, aka new os install kits.

Im considered category b, updates without telemetry

@Hood, there are firms that still use NT3.5/4.0 2000, Win 7, they just enter a contract with them to continue updates.


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## laszlo (Mar 16, 2017)

seems i had to post again my usual reply to M$ ..:


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## BrainCruser (Mar 16, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> The reasons do matter.
> 
> You paid for a Windows VERSION number with a LIMITED support period of which in the case of 7, that support ended two years ago. It's really that simple.
> 
> ...



Microsoft is using their monopoly on the desktop OS market to push their new product that users don't want. They got sued once for that. They should get sued again for this windows 10 shit.


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## ManofGod (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> You didn't negate anything. You're just a m$ apologist.
> 
> The reason doesn't matter. You paid for it meaning you can use on the hardware you want. We should start killing phone apps if you don't buy a new phone to run them on.



Yeah right dude.  I see it is easier to attack, eh? So, do not buy a Ryzen or Kabylake based CPU then if you want to run Windows 7 or 8.1, perceived problem solved. Heck, I have not read the article yet and I bet you it is really much to do about nothing and all about FUD.


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## ManofGod (Mar 16, 2017)

Oh, I also noticed that there is no news story about how Windows 7 updates are now working extremely fast. In fact, they are faster than I have ever seen them before but, I guess that does not paint MS in a negative light now, does it?


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## yogurt_21 (Mar 16, 2017)

lets see

1. this is pretty much targeted at windows 7 and its 48% market share... windows 8.1's 6% share is tiny already and the amount who use ryzen on it has to be even tinier. So I'd expect this to be a way to try and get people to move off of 7, trouble is enthusiasts aren't really the bread and butter of the 48% and few others are going to care they buy computers fully loaded software and all, not processor/mobo/memory upgrades.

2. Microsoft is up +40.71% since windows 10 was released. I get some enthusiast here don't like it, but stock holders do and the adoption rate is quite high in consumers as well.

3. Microsoft has always considered the motherboard the machine. If you changed motherboards and used the same license you're to blame when it's not supported, not the other way around. If you purchased a new windows 8.1 one for just ryzen then it's microsoft's fault because yes that OS is still fully supported. Just remember you're in the extreme minority, not that being in the minority makes it right to mistreat you, just something to keep in mind. 
If you purchased a "security only" updates OS for a brand new hardware configuration well then you need to go check out some Sam Elliot memes online.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 16, 2017)

ManofGod said:


> Yeah right dude.  I see it is easier to attack, eh? So, do not buy a Ryzen or Kabylake based CPU then if you want to run Windows 7 or 8.1, perceived problem solved. Heck, I have not read the article yet and I bet you it is really much to do about nothing and all about FUD.





ManofGod said:


> Oh, I also noticed that there is no news story about how Windows 7 updates are now working extremely fast. In fact, they are faster than I have ever seen them before but, I guess that does not paint MS in a negative light now, does it?



 please use the multiple quote button and insert quotes button


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## HugsNotDrugs (Mar 16, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> Boy, you just ignored the point, again (as if I said anything about android or software updates when what I meant was hardware). You keep saying win 7 as if you have a point. You don't. Why does joe schmo with his 10 yr old dual core get updates, but I don't? You can't legitimately answer that, so you go off on tangents and say "support is ending soon."
> 
> Do us a favor and stop defending these assholes, mmkay?



Joe Schmo gets updates because there are millions of machines with 10-year old dual core CPUs already running Windows 7.  Nobody likes systems being bricked, so Microsoft has an obligation to continue that support for those CPUs.  

Quite different is spending money to introduce new features to Win7 so that new hardware architectures work on old OS software.  Validation costs a lot of money and that money has already been spent on Windows 10.

I hope that makes sense.


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## R-T-B (Mar 16, 2017)

That there is some plain old BS.  Can't wait until they add Skylake to the list.


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## TheDeeGee (Mar 16, 2017)

Windows 10 runs butter smooth... why are people so stubborn to stick with an ancient OS?


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## Dethroy (Mar 16, 2017)

kruk said:


> This really isn't important for those who purchased a retail version of Windows 7. They are ending support *3 years prematurely* for the customers who bought/will buy Ryzen/Kaby Lake. It's *none of their business* on what type of CPU I install my retail Windows 7 copy. It's also *none of their business* why I *didn't upgrade to Windows 10*. End of story.


Bollocks. Windows 7's mainstream support did end on 01/13/2015. Therefore MS doesn't have to provide the necessary code, drivers or whatever is needed to run Ryzen on Windows 7. Microsoft has never lied to you, let alone betrayed its users in this regard. No, people are simply in denial, when in fact MS informs users years in advance.
Windows 8.1 is a different story though. Its mainstream support lasts until 01/09/2018.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Mar 16, 2017)

yogurt_21 said:


> lets see
> 
> 2. Microsoft is up +40.71% since windows 10 was released. I get some enthusiast here don't like it, but stock holders do and the adoption rate is quite high in consumers as well.



But isn't MS having its growth elsewhere, and not on OS sales? Nadela is overall taking the company to good places, but "Windows" is just one piece of a very large company.


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## Easo (Mar 16, 2017)

This thread... 
I loved the guy who said it does not matter which CPU runs the system. Yes. Yes it does.
You all should chill down for a moment.


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## R-T-B (Mar 16, 2017)

Easo said:


> This thread...
> I loved the guy who said it does not matter which CPU runs the system. Yes. Yes it does.
> You all should chill down for a moment.



From the perspective of simply issuing security updates?  No, not really.


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## TheOne (Mar 16, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> That there is some plain old BS.  Can't wait until they add Skylake to the list.



Lets hope Microsoft doesn't change their mind about supporting Skylakes to the end of Win7.


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## Easo (Mar 16, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> From the perspective of simply issuing security updates?  No, not really.


I would say it pretty much depends on what the security updates fixes. 
Another bug in IE? Probably does not matter. Something that talks with hardware? Very much so.
I still fail to see the reason for outrage. Don't do unsupported stuff. Kaby Lake and Ryzen are NOT supported with W7. Do you really thing MS needs support requests about someones failed computer because he thought he knew better?
I already saw one post in SCCM (MS computer management software) subreddit about someone trying to make Win7 work on Kaby Lake and asking for help in regards for drivers (which will never come). Why? To have even more issues in the future?


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 16, 2017)

Shihabyooo said:


> You and all of those who google their KBs before applying. I'm starting to wonder if anyone but that guy checks everything that comes out of Wupdate!
> 
> Still, I doubt that that would help, thanks to the "convenience" of update rollups.


I'm one of the few apparently that looks up the kb articles for each update.


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## Lionheart (Mar 16, 2017)

exodusprime1337 said:


> The butt hurt is real in this thread.  Entertaining.. butt real. lol



People making valid points = butthurt?


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## wagana (Mar 16, 2017)

That some next level BS from M$ and I'm pretty sure it's illegal in some places.
Pentium IIs didn't meet W7s minimun specs nor had the same "support" at all yet they didn't lock them... Seems like they didn't learn that forcing shit down people's throat doesn't work


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## Deleted member 24505 (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't understand all the bitching about win 10, I don't mind it, and just disable all the crap. 

Maybe you should all just stick to vista.


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## evernessince (Mar 16, 2017)

tigger said:


> I don't understand all the bitching about win 10, I don't mind it, and just disable all the crap.
> 
> Maybe you should all just stick to vista.



Most people don't hate windows 10, it is a good operating system.  What people do hate is microsoft's constant bull crap.  If a half decent company owned the windows operating system and simply stopped being dicks that alone would increase windows 10 adoption by a large amount.


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## Melvis (Mar 16, 2017)

That is the biggest load of BS ive ever seen come out of MS, this is just another reason im starting to really hate MS. Let the law suits begin!


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## mcraygsx (Mar 17, 2017)

ASUS Crosshair VI originally showed drivers for 7, 8.1 and 10 since I purchased it on 2nd of march. As of yesterday it is only showing drivers for 10. And here I was about to do fresh install of Windows 8.1 while waiting for bigger m.2 to ship.

But they still have Windows 7/8.1 drivers and software available for Z270 series maybe because they are compatible with Skylake series.

_
_


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## newtekie1 (Mar 17, 2017)

Simple solution, don't use outdated OSes. Problem solved.


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## Melvis (Mar 17, 2017)

newtekie1 said:


> Simple solution, don't use outdated OSes. Problem solved.



Windows 8/8.1 isnt outdated, no OS is outdated really the ONLY reason there "classed" as out dated is because MS has made them outdated, simple. 

MS need to fix this issue as its already been confirmed that Ryzen works just fine on 7/8/8.1, and the drivers are there from all motherboard venders also. (I just checked yesterday)


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## newtekie1 (Mar 17, 2017)

Melvis said:


> Windows 8/8.1 isnt outdated, no OS is outdated really the ONLY reason there "classed" as out dated is because MS has made them outdated, simple.



Once there is a better new version out, the OS is outdated.


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## Melvis (Mar 17, 2017)

newtekie1 said:


> Once there is a better new version out, the OS is outdated.



Then I guess most of us are still waiting for that better OS to come out


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2017)

Melvis said:


> That is the biggest load of BS ive ever seen come out of MS, this is just another reason im starting to really hate MS. Let the law suits begin!


For what? From a business point of view, continuing to support a never ending stream of products on an old OS doesn't make sense.  It costs tie, personnel, money and resources that could be better applied elsewhere.


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## ssdpro (Mar 17, 2017)

rtwjunkie said:


> For what? From a business point of view, continuing to support a never ending stream of products on an old OS doesn't make sense.  It costs tie, personnel, money and resources that could be better applied elsewhere.


Exactly.  You can't allocate resources to keep 10 year old products working optimally with new stuff.  

What I don't understand is how these people accept the Win 7 handicap.  When I build a system I want it to be able to do anything well.  How can you build a new system then put a 10 year old OS on it?  "Sorry guys, I have old OS can't run that."  "No, does it have an old Win7 version?"  "Hmmmm... let me see if there is a Win 7 hotfix!"  Windows 7 was a great OS.  But it is dated now, MS has bugged it out, and it is slow.  I use both (notebook W7, desktop W10).


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## Melvis (Mar 17, 2017)

rtwjunkie said:


> For what? From a business point of view, continuing to support a never ending stream of products on an old OS doesn't make sense.  It costs tie, personnel, money and resources that could be better applied elsewhere.



Well that doesnt add up with Windows 10 then as it was a free upgrade for a whole yr, I cant see them making any money of a OS that was free for 12months? and it takes yrs of work and development to make a new OS. They could of spent all that money/time on just continuing on with the current OS's and be way infront, its pretty clear that W10 wasnt as big success as they wanted it to be, otherwise there be over 50% using it, and there just isnt.

@ ssdpro I have found that to be the opposite way around, its more like oh you have W10? sorry that software wont work on that OS, pretty much EVERYTHING works on 7, but no not on 10, hell I got software from 2013 that wont work on 10, disgusting. People pay for expensive software from only a few yrs ago and then find out it wont work on 10, guess what, they will stick with an older OS as its cheaper.


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## timta2 (Mar 17, 2017)

A company, that was founded on dishonest and dirty business practices, continues to participate in dishonest and dirty business practices. 

SHOCKER!



ManofGod said:


> Oh, I also noticed that there is no news story about how Windows 7 updates are now working extremely fast. In fact, they are faster than I have ever seen them before but, I guess that does not paint MS in a negative light now, does it?



Didn't Microsoft intentionally cripple the updates, in order to try and get people to upgrade to Windows 10? I think that's been the common sense consensus.


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## notb (Mar 17, 2017)

TheGuruStud said:


> The reason doesn't matter. You paid for it meaning you can use on the hardware you want.



Not true.

You paid for an OS that supported a specific set of hardware - not everything that will come out in the future (not even everything existing at the moment of OS release).
Windows can (both technically and legally) block updates on a new platform (they didn't for the older ones).


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## Caring1 (Mar 17, 2017)

notb said:


> Windows can (both technically and legally) block updates on a new platform (they didn't for the older ones).


As long as it functions fine, why bother with updates, most M.S. updates seem to cause issues, which then needs more updates.
From my viewpoint the O.S. should only need a firewall and decent anti-virus if it is running fine.


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## kruk (Mar 17, 2017)

Dethroy said:


> Bollocks. Windows 7's mainstream support did end on 01/13/2015. Therefore MS doesn't have to provide the necessary code, drivers or whatever is needed to run Ryzen on Windows 7. Microsoft has never lied to you, let alone betrayed its users in this regard. No, people are simply in denial, when in fact MS informs users years in advance.
> Windows 8.1 is a different story though. Its mainstream support lasts until 01/09/2018.



I very well know when the mainstream support ended, but the extended support should provide *security fixes* for *another 3 years*. And Ryzen/Kaby Lake users aren't getting them. Are you saying that fixing *all* vulnerabilities requires *processor specific code* which would not run on Ryzen or Kaby Lake? I doubt that, but you are welcome to prove me otherwise.


----------



## R-T-B (Mar 17, 2017)

Easo said:


> Something that talks with hardware? Very much so.



I can't think of one update that has ever done this.  That would be driver or microcode's domain.


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## notb (Mar 17, 2017)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> But isn't MS having its growth elsewhere, and not on OS sales? Nadela is overall taking the company to good places, but "Windows" is just one piece of a very large company.



Correct. MS company value has little to do (directly) with Windows sales. They have stable market share. The OS recycle duration is most likely also fairly constant.
Even if they force an earlier update to W10, it's just the cashflow modification - not a change in total sales of anything. When MS announced the initial 10 update will be free, their stock value didn't react at all. That's because Windows update licences for home users are basically invisible in financial statements. It is very unlikely that someone would delay the replace of his PC, because he got a more modern OS. So the total cashflow from OEM licences didn't change.

MS value increases because they developed a very good and wide offer of products.
Today it's possibly the most robust and easiest to use ecosystem out there (for both home and pro use).

I guess the move to dump phones also helped...


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## Vayra86 (Mar 17, 2017)

evernessince said:


> Most people don't hate windows 10, it is a good operating system.  What people do hate is microsoft's constant bull crap.  If a half decent company owned the windows operating system and simply stopped being dicks that alone would increase windows 10 adoption by a large amount.



That's the irony here.

"FUCK YOU MICROSOFT, I AM USING YOUR OLDEST POSSIBLE OS BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SHIT" ...............

Back when Win 7 came out, THE BEST OS was Win XP and Vista was the main reason to never upgrade a thing even though in reality, it was a huge step forward and basically Win 7 pre-release. 

When Win 8.0 came out, Win 7 was the number one OS because everyone dreaded having a tablet PC sitting on their desktop and it showed a Microsoft in disarray (I do agree on that one). 

Then came 8.1 which is basically 10 pre-release.... and now we are on 10 and people have to have Win 8.1, because 10 is full of spyware (even though you get the exact same telemetry files sent to you when you update Win 7 and 8).

I can see how it takes awhile for this to sink in with people, but after a good 20 years of Windows versions, I'm still not using an other OS because I hate MS so much, but never took the hard decision of running Linux and basically introducing a huge time investment for having to figure out everything myself.

People need to own up a bit for their own laziness, in the first place for giving MS the monopoly they say they hate, and second for not getting a Linux distro to solve their own problems. Instead, they resort to creating rant threads like this one while they're shopping for their Kaby Lake/Ryzen setup that HAS TO HAVE THE OLDEST POSSIBLE OS on it, even though MS has clearly pointed out it won't support it.

You know what all this looks like, right? Its like a five year old throwing a tantrum over nothing 'I want this because you say I can't have it' -style. And when I point this out, I am an M$ (watch the dollar sign here) 'apologist'.

LOL

Good luck with that court case though


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## Big_Vulture (Mar 17, 2017)

It is fraud, they cannot do this, it is illegal!


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## xorbe (Mar 17, 2017)

notb said:


> Not true.
> 
> You paid for an OS that supported a specific set of hardware - not everything that will come out in the future (not even everything existing at the moment of OS release).
> Windows can (both technically and legally) block updates on a new platform (they didn't for the older ones).



We know it's an artificial limitation, geared for someone else's benefit.  It's a two way street.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 17, 2017)

Big_Vulture said:


> It is fraud, they cannot do this, it is illegal!


Legal source?


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## Darmok N Jalad (Mar 17, 2017)

Melvis said:


> Then I guess most of us are still waiting for that better OS to come out



I think that's the situation. Windows 10 is a pretty significant departure from 7. If you look at the progression of the other OS'es out there, the overall product changes in small ways. Just look at how the appearance changes from XP to Vista/7 to 8 to 10. Most people I know don't like that kind of change on their devices, and virtually every major Windows update changes the look, changes the location of everyday things like the shut down buttons (or removes the Start button all together) or moves the control panel settings around, etc. This is all good and fine if the changes make sense, but in the case of Windows 8 and 10, it almost feels like they are rearranging the deck chairs. Every new OS release requires unnecessary reeducation. MS set that trend, and now people are resisting it.


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## notb (Mar 18, 2017)

Caring1 said:


> As long as it functions fine, why bother with updates, most M.S. updates seem to cause issues, which then needs more updates.
> From my viewpoint the O.S. should only need a firewall and decent anti-virus if it is running fine.



For example to fix Ryzen issues (everyone waiting for a microcode to fix - e.g. - the "deadly FMA3" bug ).

Updates on Windows include (are dominated by) fixes for hardware problems and incompatibilities. They are pretty essential.
However, you're right about them causing a lot of issues, but that's difficult to avoid in an open platform. It's much the same with Linux, Android and so on.

Only companies like Apple have the possibility to make full tests of update implications, because they control the hardware.
And even Apple f..ks up from time to time, like with iOS updates that make older phones slow and power-hungry (although most people believe it's done on purpose).


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## Vayra86 (Mar 19, 2017)

Melvis said:


> Then I guess most of us are still waiting for that better OS to come out



All those people are literally 'living the dream' then. Windows 10 is what it is and its here to stay.

W10 is a huge improvement over 7 in many ways. It has some minor drawbacks too. Just like 7 had a couple, and 8. The funny thing is, this thread is entirely NOT about wanting a better OS, its about staying on the same one that is outdated, even beyond its supported timeframe. Again, I feel MS should definitely be supporting Ryzen and Kaby on 8.1, but to request/demand this for 7 is the exact sentiment you can see with people that were still on XP when it went EOL - its pure and utter laziness and a very conscious attempt to pass the limits of what is deemed common sense, while at the same time pointing the finger at the software builder for being evil. It's hypocrisy.

Y'know I was also someone that held off the upgrade until the last possible moment, because I don't feel like early adopting a new OS at all. But when I did move to 10, it had a few hiccups and took some getting used to, but I was also quick to realize that its an improvement over everything that came before it. It is flexible, intuitive, does things automagically that you had to do manual in 7/8, and even does those things in a way that you would probably also do it yourself. When you let 10 do its thing when it wants, like it is designed, you NEVER, and I mean n-e-v-e-r get harassed by Windows Update at some most inconvenient time anymore, you have a rig that boots faster than it ever did before, secures itself well on all ends, and lets you be productive without clicking twenty tabs and option lists to really get it to what you want it to be. The beauty of 10 is that it has been decluttered in every possible way, and adds functionality in its place, while still being customizable and 'open' like every version that preceded it.

Its also mostly in the smaller things, like when you hook up your phone on USB, you don't get this super annoying dialog box forcing you to 'choose' what to do with your media. It recognizes you plugged the same device as before, and does what you want it to do.  You need to actually use 10 for a few months to really feel the improvements under the hood as well, like its improved responsiveness which only happens after 10 has done some serious work on your system disk, something it does while your PC is idling.


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## Arjai (Mar 20, 2017)

I have a 10 machine, older dual core Intel, with an HDD and it boots FAST! In fact, I am sure it is faster, way faster, than when I first updated it. 7OS is a HOG, compared to 8.1 and 10. The more 10 runs the better it runs. I did all the youtube tweaks I thought were necessary. In the beginning, it would update all the time and hang on reboot. I would wake up and it would be turned off. But now? No issues I can think of, however, it has been off for a few months, no wifi at home, for the time being.

Whereas, my Linux machines? That was a process of learning, over months, trying to get them 'Tuned'. Which Distro, I have some older CPU's and some of them couldn't handle newer Distro's!

Point being, I concur with the statement above. Just use it as you normally do, and it gets better!! Tunes itself to you and your uses. MS is not the Ideal, neither is Linux or iOS. But, 10 is without doubt the best MS has done. Hell, I have 8.1 on this laptop I am using and still can't find a fault. It does everything I want it to, not the least of it being a smaller footprint that doesn't hog my mid-sized SSD!

I appreciate the vitriol. But, getting all worked up about it is just a waste of energy. Lawsuit? Good Luck.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 20, 2017)

Windows 7 is on extended support which translates to critical security updates only.  Rather than patch them to support the latest hardware, they're saying "LOL NOPE."  AMD and Intel can release updates via drivers if they want to but odds are they won't.  A lawsuit wouldn't go anywhere because Microsoft has already made it very clear what the product lifecycle is.

Windows 8.1 has mainstream support until the beginning of 2018 so I'm surprised they're not patching that.  A lawsuit could be effective there.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> The reasons do matter.
> Now, we could have a debate on dropping the support for 8, but when it comes to 'is this illegal'.... I strongly doubt you'll get Microsoft convicted because of all the reasons I posted earlier.



The problem with your argument is that Extended Windows support is a time point they are LEGALLY liable for. Microsoft is NOT lawfully allowed to dictate what hardware that a user may, or may not, run the software on. They have a legal obligation to provide the support they have committed to for ALL users of their OS lines regardless of platform progression.

Your conclusions are without merit.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Mar 20, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> Microsoft is NOT lawfully allowed to dictate what hardware that a user may, or may not, run the software on.


Actually, they are.  Microsoft is under no legal obligation to support any hardware.  It is usually the hardware vendor that has to make their hardware compatible with Windows.  In the case of Kaby Lake and Ryzen, it is the vendors deciding to discontinue legacy Windows 7/8.1 support.  Microsoft is only providing a courtesy note and mirroring their position.  Intel and AMD are aware that Microsoft is continuing to update those older operating systems (especially Windows 8.1).  Microsoft isn't calling the shots here.


----------



## Dethroy (Mar 20, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> The problem with your argument is that Extended Windows support is a time point they are LEGALLY liable for. Microsoft is NOT lawfully allowed to dictate what hardware that a user may, or may not, run the software on. They have a legal obligation to provide the support they have committed to for ALL users of their OS lines regardless of platform progression.
> 
> Your conclusions are without merit.


Sorry, but do you even listen to yourself?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> Windows 10 is what it is and its here to stay.


Not if the world refuses to accept it. We, the people, have the ultimate say. We vote with our choices and wallets. And people are NOT voting for Windows 10. Most people dislike it.



Vayra86 said:


> W10 is a huge improvement over 7 in many ways.


YOUR opinion and not one supported by certain facts, nor supported by popular opinion.



Vayra86 said:


> It has some minor drawbacks too.


Let's be fair, it has a TON of drawbacks. The keystroke logging[which is blatantly illegal without a warrant where I live], spying and general disregard for user privacy for starters. The cumbersome, unintuitive and at times clunky UI for second. The sheer lack of customization options and the fact that access to a lot of admin options and settings have been hidden or removed for thirds. I could keep going like this, but the general point is that Microsoft is showing us all that they have ZERO respect for us. We do NOT have to tolerate such behavior.



Vayra86 said:


> Just like 7 had a couple,


Yes a couple, not a TON of them.



Vayra86 said:


> and 8.


8 was a train wreck of a launch, and made the Vista launch and problems look simply delightful by comparison. And 8.1 was just a slap in the face. The public asked for the start button back, but we wanted the menu that went with it. Instead we click the button and we're taken straight away back to that "tiles" crap. In case you're wondering, that was the Microsoft UI designers way of saying "eff u". And we the public responded accordingly.



Vayra86 said:


> The funny thing is, this thread is entirely NOT about wanting a better OS


You're right, it's about wanting to stay with an OS that is MUCH easier to use, much more configurable, looks better, and doesn't spy on us[so long as everyone removes the "diagtrack" service that was included in a recent update].



Vayra86 said:


> its about staying on the same one that is outdated, even beyond its supported timeframe. Again, I feel MS should definitely be supporting Ryzen and Kaby on 8.1, but to request/demand this for 7 is the exact sentiment you can see with people that were still on XP when it went EOL


Except that 7 is one of the most well loved OS's in history[though with Android that is changing]. Windows 8/8.1 was Microsoft's too-little-too-late-me-too grab at the mobile computing market. It was fully crap, rubbish and few liked it. Windows 10 is Microsoft's belligerent unwillingness to accept that the public does not have to like it when they put complete trash on the market.



Vayra86 said:


> - its pure and utter laziness and a very conscious attempt to pass the limits of what is deemed common sense


Oh? How is it common sense to accept such invasive and disrespectful intrusions to our privacy and rights?



Vayra86 said:


> , while at the same time pointing the finger at the software builder for being evil. It's hypocrisy.


As mentioned above, much of the telemetry Microsoft is using has already been ruled unlawful in some courts, and the keystroke logging is downright illegal in many areas. How is that not evil? They're committing crimes and because they're a large corporation they are getting away with it. That will not last for long.



Vayra86 said:


> Y'know I was also someone that held off the upgrade until the last possible moment, because I don't feel like early adopting a new OS at all. But when I did move to 10, it had a few hiccups and took some getting used to, but I was also quick to realize that its an improvement over everything that came before it. It is flexible, intuitive, does things automagically that you had to do manual in 7/8, and even does those things in a way that you would probably also do it yourself. When you let 10 do its thing when it wants, like it is designed, you NEVER, and I mean n-e-v-e-r get harassed by Windows Update at some most inconvenient time anymore, you have a rig that boots faster than it ever did before, secures itself well on all ends, and lets you be productive without clicking twenty tabs and option lists to really get it to what you want it to be. The beauty of 10 is that it has been decluttered in every possible way, and adds functionality in its place, while still being customizable and 'open' like every version that preceded it.


Most of what was said in this paragraph was so lacking in accuracy that it would be laughable if it were not so sad. Clearly you have but a tenuous grip on reality.

This is exactly the kind of "bend me over and do what you like" mentality that is so dangerous to digital security on a personal level. Microsoft is NOT trustworthy. They prove that with every move like this that they make. Is it any wonder that the most dominant OS in use on the planet is Android? Microsoft is killing the PC market, and people like you are helping them. GET a CLUE!


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

Dethroy said:


> Sorry, but do you even listen to yourself?


Do you mean do I proof read my posts, yes. Want to make a point? Use a bit more detail.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 20, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> Extended Windows support is a time point they are LEGALLY liable for


critical security updates only.

See how I finished your sentance? That's the actual limit of what they are liable for. Period.

Did you read what you wrote before you hit "post reply"?


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

rtwjunkie said:


> critical security updates only.
> 
> See how I finished your sentance? That's the actual limit of what they are liable for. Period.
> 
> Did you read what you wrote before you hit "post reply"?


By using the term "Extended Support" I was directly implying only security and critical bug fixes. But that is what they've cut off. When I purchased all 5 of my retail copies of Windows 7 I am legally entitled to use those copies of Windows on any system *I* define. Microsoft does NOT have the authority to refuse support for a product they have already made a public commitment to supporting. That is a point that is supported by several pieces of case law. This action IS unlawful. But let's see if anyone takes them to court. And thank you for reiterating my point.

FYI, perhaps your reading comprehension needs slight improvement.. Just throwing it out there...


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## Dethroy (Mar 20, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> By using the term "Extended Support" I was directly implying only security and critical bug fixes. But that is what they've cut off.


They didn't. Users of Windows 7 will still receive security related updates and bugfixes until the end of Windows 7's extended support. Only the users with unsupported hardware won't receive 'em - which leads to your next point:


lexluthermiester said:


> When I purchased all 5 of my retail copies of Windows 7 I am legally entitled to use those copies of Windows on any system *I* define.



As long as the hardware makers provide working drivers for its product(s), then yes, feel free to build a machine that uses said hardware. Microsoft is not to be held responsible to ensure that every single piece of hardware works in tandem with its software.
Microsoft is not obliged to provide said drivers for its software that is beyond its mainstream support lifecycle.



lexluthermiester said:


> Microsoft does NOT have the authority to refuse support for a product they have already made a public commitment to supporting.


Microsoft never claimed to add support for the Zen Architecture. AMD did. If you still insist on blaming someone for not supporting software that is on extended support, than it's AMD that is to blame. 

Quote from http://www.pcmag.com/news/351565/amd-ryzen-processors-will-support-windows-7:
"_As Microsoft will not add support for new processor architectures to Windows 7, it's up to AMD to produce all of the necessary drivers itself for both the processor and the AM4 socket chipset. It's unclear exactly why AMD would go to the trouble of doing this beyond making Ryzen accessible to the widest possible market. Even so, surely consumers upgrading to a Ryzen-based desktop PC would also opt for a move to Windows 10._"


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

Dethroy said:


> They didn't. Users of Windows 7 will still receive security related updates and bugfixes until the end of Windows 7's extended support. Only the users with unsupported hardware won't receive 'em - which leads to your next point:
> 
> 
> As long as the hardware makers provide working drivers for its product(s), then yes, feel free to build a machine that uses said hardware. Microsoft is not to be held responsible to ensure that every single piece of hardware works in tandem with its software.
> ...


You really missed the point of that post. The point is, it is still Microsoft's responsibility to provide the security and critical bug fixes within the scope of "extended support" *REGARDLESS* of the platform chosen by the user.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 20, 2017)

Microsoft's responsibility begins and ends with the operating system.  Outside of generics (read: SATA, audio, VGA, etc.), Microsoft is not responsible for drivers at all.  If AMD and Intel opt not to support that hardware on the operating system you choose to use, then it just isn't going to work or work poorly.

Instead of being outrospective and looking for who to blame, maybe you ought to try introspection instead: why would you buy an 8 year old operating system and installing on hardware that is less than a year old?  Hell, it makes more sense to install Windows 10 on 8 year old hardware than it does to install Windows 7 on new hardware.  I've done it, repeatedly, and it works great.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Microsoft's responsibility begins and ends with the operating system.  Outside of generics (read: SATA, audio, VGA, etc.), Microsoft is not responsible for drivers at all.  If AMD and Intel opt not to support that hardware on the operating system you choose to use, then it just isn't going to work or work poorly.


I never said they're responsible for drivers. SECURITY and CRITICAL BUG fixes within the scope of EXTENDED SUPPORT.



FordGT90Concept said:


> Instead of being outrospective and looking for who to blame, maybe you ought to try introspection instead: why would you buy an 8 year old operating system and installing on hardware that is less than a year old?  Hell, it makes more sense to install Windows 10 on 8 year old hardware than it does to install Windows 7 on new hardware.  I've done it, repeatedly, and it works great.


You seem to have missed[or deliberately avoiding] the points made earlier.


----------



## Dethroy (Mar 20, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> I never said they're responsible for drivers. SECURITY and CRITICAL BUG fixes within the scope of EXTENDED SUPPORT.


But only on hardware that is supported in the first place. Just like Apple only supports its latest IOS versions on newer hardware.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 20, 2017)

Dethroy said:


> But only on hardware that is supported in the first place. Just like Apple only supports its latest IOS versions on newer hardware.


What rubbish! That analogy fails in two important ways. First; PC's are modular and upgradable by design, generally. iPhones/iPads are not. Second, Apple has faithfully and diligently supported their iOS devices as long as the hardware can support the software. And before you say it, Windows 7 runs flawlessly on KabyLake/Ryzen hardware, as does Windows Vista and XP for that matter.

Stop arguing at points that have no sensible logic. This decision is one in a LONG series of blunders and pathetic choices Microsoft has made. Quit defending them.


----------



## Dethroy (Mar 20, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> What rubbish! That analogy fails in two important ways. First; PC's are modular and upgradable by design, generally. iPhones/iPads are not.


Even though PCs are modular and upgradable, that doesn't mean that already succeeded software needs to support any possible future hardware release. And in Windows 7's case, Microsoft has no obligation to support new hardware for its software that is running on extended support.


lexluthermiester said:


> Stop arguing a points that have no sensible logic.


Phycisian, heal thyself.


----------



## Melvis (Mar 22, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> All those people are literally 'living the dream' then. Windows 10 is what it is and its here to stay.
> 
> W10 is a huge improvement over 7 in many ways. It has some minor drawbacks too. Just like 7 had a couple, and 8. The funny thing is, this thread is entirely NOT about wanting a better OS, its about staying on the same one that is outdated, even beyond its supported timeframe. Again, I feel MS should definitely be supporting Ryzen and Kaby on 8.1, but to request/demand this for 7 is the exact sentiment you can see with people that were still on XP when it went EOL - its pure and utter laziness and a very conscious attempt to pass the limits of what is deemed common sense, while at the same time pointing the finger at the software builder for being evil. It's hypocrisy.
> 
> ...



Again your saying its outdated, its not outdated, the only reason any OS is outdated is because MS has made it out dated, you have to realise this. This is how we the consumer have been pushed and forced to use an OS which is and was running perfectly fine with even less issue then W10 ever has. I for one like an OS to do what I tell it to do, not the other way around. I run a W10 PC and use it every day ever since it came out, its my main work station, does it do the job? yes it does, does it do it well? no it doesnt. I have to continually move back to or boot into W7 for tasks W10 wont let me to do, sorry...... again I tell the OS what to do, not it tell me what to do. 

I have to disagree on the whole never  get hassled by Windows updates as if you want to do a quick restart or turn the computer off u have no choice but to apply the updates that are sitting there, so annoying!! and since W10 (unless your on a SSD) is such a slow OS it can take some serious time to update. At least with 7 I can tell the OS to restart without doing the updates, anyone should know that Windows loves been rebooted after installing or uninstalling a program, but to then have to wait for the updates to install because I cant get around it with W10, fuck me.

Again i totally disagree I think W10 is a cluster fuck, it is in no ways a simple OS, it is even harder to use out of the box then 7. All you have to do is sit down with customers and clients to realise this, just been able to do basic tasks now is made harder as you have to go find them as there hidden away, the entire lay out is a disaster, nothing is grouped together in sections to find what your looking for its spread between two different panels and which one is hidden, it just makes it confusing for the every day user WHICH the OS is intender for, not us tech savvy people who can find these things and then set it up so the end user can now get to this and that without pulling there hair out trying to find it. 

Try changing the folder structure in windows 10 (Documents/Music/Photos etc) and tell the OS to save (automatically) into that folder structure to a different location, ever since the Anniversary update it is now impossible to do so, again its telling me what i can do when I should be telling it what to do.  Also there might be some update that W10 wants you to install and every time the OS boots its coming up on screen to say hey update here do it!, I dont want to W10 hence why I have ignored it so stop telling me very friggin time I boot. At least W7 wont annoy the shit out of you for that, if there is an update you go have a look and then decided if you want to apply it or not, its not going to stick its head out every time you turn on your PC. Yes I know i can tell it to stop but the point is I shouldnt have to in the first place! 

Yes W0 has got some features that are better then 7 thats a no brainer but they could of simply implemented that into an older OS that has already proven its self time and time again to be a stable, simple, non confusing OS for the every day users. Will I have to use W10 in the future? yes of course I will, why? because im forced to do so. Does W10 run like a beast on new hardware? yes it does ive built a Intel 6700 system on an SSD and it was very fast and smooth, does it run as good on older hardware? no it doesnt, which then inturns forces me to upgrade my allready powerful Hardware to use with an OS that has made even 3yr old Software obsolete. 

I had really high hopes for W10 I really did, I was hopeing this was going to be the OS that knocks W7 out of the park and be the most user friendly and most compatible OS to date and have within a yr and a half been the most used OS on the planet like 7 was, but sadly it hasnt lived up to my expectations at all and many other people around the world also hence the 48% of people still on W7, numbers win!


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 22, 2017)

Melvis said:


> Try changing the folder structure in windows 10 (Documents/Music/Photos etc) and tell the OS to save (automatically) into that folder structure to a different location, ever since the Anniversary update it is now impossible to do so,


Negative. You can still change all those locations of those libraries mentioned, and W10 continues to save to those locations, be it the download folder, pictures, documents, etc. And all since the Anniversary update.


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## Melvis (Mar 22, 2017)

rtwjunkie said:


> Negative. You can still change all those locations of those libraries mentioned, and W10 continues to save to those locations, be it the download folder, pictures, documents, etc. And all since the Anniversary update.



Well they must of patched that recently as that wasnt the case when the Anniversary edition first came out.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 22, 2017)

Melvis said:


> Well they must of patched that recently as that wasnt the case when the Anniversary edition first came out.


Yep, that's entirely plausible. I stayed on 1511 until January.  I figured they needed 6 months th work out 1607 bugs.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 24, 2017)

rtwjunkie said:


> Yep, that's entirely plausible. I stayed on 1511 until January.  I figured they needed 6 months th work out 1607 bugs.


As much criticism as I've rendered at Win10, I have been playing around with it. I'm using 1607 ATM and have been force tweaking it to run in a manner that is acceptable from a personal security perspective. It's close but not quite there. The UI problems are being worked on as well but it's slow going. I am just not willing to let go of options, controls and utilities that I use. This is my PC and I'm NEVER going to let anyone else[Microsoft included] control it.


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## notb (Mar 24, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is my PC and I'm NEVER going to let anyone else[Microsoft included] control it.



Just think how frustrated you'll be in the IoT / BigData / autonomous car future.
This is a good (if not the last) moment to soften your approach at least a bit.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 24, 2017)

notb said:


> Just think how frustrated you'll be in the IoT / BigData / autonomous car future.
> This is a good (if not the last) moment to soften your approach at least a bit.


That's an interesting point of view. And by IoT you mean internet connected refrigerators, microwaves and what not? Those kinds of things are going to be wifi and to keep them off the net you simply don't setup the wifi. And if that appliance "needs" inter to start up, then it goes right back to the store to be exchanged for something that doesn't require an internet connection. As for cars, NEVER GONNA HAPPEN! I will never buy, drive or ride in an autonomous car. Several reasons. If an accident happens, the DRIVER still gets the blame, legally. And I will not trust a computer that can be hacked and controlled remotely with my safety and the safety of my loved ones. Technology is a great thing, but like everything else in life, it much be taken in moderation. It is meant to enhance our existence, not take it over and control it.


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## notb (Mar 24, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's an interesting point of view. And by IoT you mean internet connected refrigerators, microwaves and what not?


Pretty much anything. Look around you and think about what smart houses/offices already offer. It's both appliances (where the IoT funcionality is an addition) and IoT-specific things (like sensors and controllers).


lexluthermiester said:


> Those kinds of things are going to be wifi and to keep them off the net you simply don't setup the wifi. And if that appliance "needs" inter to start up, then it goes right back to the store to be exchanged for something that doesn't require an internet connection.


10 years ago we still though that smartphones will exist along more traditional phones in all segments. People were afraid of tracking, poor battery life, vulnerable screens and so on. And what happened? Traditional phones survived only in the cheapest segment.
What you've written is very bold. What if in 10 years only the cheapest fridges are non-IoT? You buy a poor quality appliance just to avert having to connect it to Internet?

And we can easily imagine IoT appliances to be mandatory in some situations (e.g. gas stove monitoring).


lexluthermiester said:


> As for cars, NEVER GONNA HAPPEN! I will never buy, drive or ride in an autonomous car. Several reasons.


And what if only autonomous cars (in self-driving mode) are allowed on some highways or city centres? Can you live with that?


lexluthermiester said:


> If an accident happens, the DRIVER still gets the blame, legally.


Based on current law - yes. This will change very soon - few years at most.
Many countries are already preparing new legislation, while car manufacturers are hiring people from insurance business, who will prepare the new products (because car/AI manufacturer will be responsible).


lexluthermiester said:


> And I will not trust a computer that can be hacked and controlled remotely with my safety and the safety of my loved ones.


Do you fly? I mean: as a passenger, in large aircrafts.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 24, 2017)

Actually glad you brought up these points.


notb said:


> Pretty much anything. Look around you and think about what smart houses/offices already offer. It's both appliances (where the IoT functionality is an addition) and IoT-specific things (like sensors and controllers).


True, but they still need a LAN/WiFi connection. And so far, when denied such they run fine.



notb said:


> 10 years ago we still though that smartphones will exist along more traditional phones in all segments. People were afraid of tracking, poor battery life, vulnerable screens and so on. And what happened? Traditional phones survived only in the cheapest segment.


If by "traditional" you mean feature phones, then ok. That's not really what I meant though. And for the record, I have a very nice Android phone but only have a talk&text plan. No data. The phone only gets internet over WiFi.



notb said:


> What you've written is very bold. What if in 10 years only the cheapest fridges are non-IoT? You buy a poor quality appliance just to avert having to connect it to Internet?


It's not likely to happen, but if it does I'd likely find a way to hack it. Or yes, I'd buy a cheaper non-IoT model. There's no practical need for those kinds of things. 



notb said:


> And we can easily imagine IoT appliances to be mandatory in some situations (e.g. gas stove monitoring).


Rubbish, and again, I don't care. NOT gonna happen in my home. I recently bought a car that had an early version of the automotive "black-boxes" in it. It was swiftly, permanently, removed.



notb said:


> And what if only autonomous cars (in self-driving mode) are allowed on some highways or city centers? Can you live with that?


No, but it's unlikely to happen were I live and if it does, I'll just take the subway. 



notb said:


> Based on current law - yes. This will change very soon - few years at most.
> Many countries are already preparing new legislation, while car manufacturers are hiring people from insurance business, who will prepare the new products (because car/AI manufacturer will be responsible).


Not anytime soon in the United States. As I said elsewhere, technology is a great thing, in moderation. It's wonderful when it enhances our lives, not when it replaces us. 



notb said:


> Do you fly? I mean: as a passenger, in large aircraft's.


Glad you mentioned aircraft. As a pilot myself, how technology on aircraft works is something very familiar to me. Aircraft, until recently, could not even be accessed remotely. Only UAV's fly remotely. And as for Auto-pilot, there have been a number of accidents where pilots depended way too much on automation and didn't fly the aircraft themselves. Computers and technology can make flying safer, but it can not replace an experienced and seasoned pilot. Likewise an automobile driver can not truly be replaced. It's an interesting idea, but it's not practical and I do not trust computers completely for one simple reason; they can not "think" for us. And they should be allowed to try.


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## notb (Mar 25, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> True, but they still need a LAN/WiFi connection. And so far, when denied such they run fine.



I'm talking about something else: situations, when you'll decide to have an IoT-enabled devices online. There could be very different reasons, but I'll repeat the main three:
1) you decide you can benefit from IoT,
2) someone will make you do it (e.g. fire safety regulations or whatever),
3) some non-IoT related issues will win over - e.g. you'll decide that having a top-of-the-line fridge that is IoT-only (that only works online) is the most interesting option anyway - despite the potential spying, that you could block by getting a more basic model that can work offline.

And the fridge example is already fairly subjective, while I think there are a lot of IoT devices that will be much easier to accept.
For example - do you have anything against flood sensors? Do you find it a threat that someone unprivileged could hack into and check whether you're house has been flooded?


lexluthermiester said:


> Glad you mentioned aircraft. As a pilot myself, how technology on aircraft works is something very familiar to me. Aircraft, until recently, could not even be accessed remotely. Only UAV's fly remotely. And as for Auto-pilot, there have been a number of accidents where pilots depended way too much on automation and didn't fly the aircraft themselves.


As a person from insurance business, I actually know a bit about crash statistics, but let's leave that. We agree that at this point there must be a pilot in the plane.
But I'm also doing a lot of research in computational decision making methods, so now the discussion is really moving into my comfort zone. 


lexluthermiester said:


> Computers and technology can make flying safer, but it can not replace an experienced and seasoned pilot. Likewise an automobile driver can not truly be replaced.


This is not a proper comparison and you're making a mistake here. 
Pilots are trained not to operate planes when everything works (because autopilot is doing that). They're precisely prepared to take over when the autopilot is malfunctioning or can't do something necessary.

It's actually the exact opposite with cars: drivers are thought to operate cars in the most probable situations.
Cars have security systems that are there to handle extreme situations and malfunctioning, because drivers can't. It's not possible to teach an average person e.g. how to safely handle sliding on a wet surface. This would take months and still eliminate many applicants.

And BTW: because cars don't drive on their own (yet), they're not designed to avert crashes.
Car safety is all about minimizing the results of a crash, when it happens (because the designers assume it will).
Such approach clearly can't be used in planes. Here it's all about staying in the air and landing safely.



lexluthermiester said:


> they can not "think" for us. And they should be allowed to try.



By contrary, they can. 
You're thinking about "thinking" as a creative process, that computers can't do reliably (yet...).
However, "thinking" in general is mostly about fairly programmable reactions, which computers are designed to do. Your brain:
1) gets input: task to do and current state of the world around you,
2) processes it based on what it knows and the historical outcomes (experience) -> neural network,
3) chooses the best solution.

Think about games.
Computers are fairly rubbish in designing them, because this is a creativity task. They can, however, play many games very well.
The important fact is that if a game has finite number of states, theoretically a computer will always win with a human, because it can choose the optimal strategy. It's just a matter of processing power and storage for the states (inputs) and strategies (outputs).
For example: computers are already superior in simple games (e.g. checkers) and are surpassing us in more complicated ones like chess.
But Go has too many states - you can't teach a computer to handle all possibilities. As a result the AI has to, for example, rely on a neural-network ("intelligence") approach and these are still not as efficient as the biological ones we have.

So going back to driving (but staying in game theory language): if you have a system with both AI and humans "playing", you have infinite number of states, which have to be approximated by a finite set - just to let an AI do anything useful. And it's still a huge set, because there are countless possible situations on roads.
As a result it's a difficult task just to program a car to drive between humans that follow the game rules. On top of that you have to teach a car to handle situations, where humans are breaking the law.
However, if you *limit the game* to a smaller area with less states (e.g. a single city) and all players are playing according to the same rules, you can teach cars to always drive safely. In other words: if every car is autonomous, you can give each of them precise, deterministic instructions for each situation (e.g. each junction).
At that point you're only left with unpredictable objects to cover: pedestrians, pets and so on. And here also the autopilot will win, because, despite having an inferior "intelligence", it gathers a lot more information than a human can. It will, for example, "see" people hidden behind an obstacle.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 27, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not if the world refuses to accept it. We, the people, have the ultimate say. We vote with our choices and wallets. And people are NOT voting for Windows 10. Most people dislike it.
> 
> 
> YOUR opinion and not one supported by certain facts, nor supported by popular opinion.
> ...



Some insight for you then to consider;

- You get the same telemetry stuff in Windows 7 and 8, the only new feature is Cortana in 10. But in Win 7 and 8  most of that telemetry data sent to MS, does not serve you in any way, while in 10, it does through its new features. Whether you'll use them or not is another thing, but the idea that 'you're free from spying on 7' is utter nonsense.

- 10 is a safer OS on kernel level than 7 can possibly become.

- 'Popular opinion', where are those numbers? The adoption rate of 10 is pretty solid, especially when compared to previous OS versions. https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0
25% is extremely decent at this point in time.

- Same link from above shows nearly 9% of users STILL on Windows XP, which entirely supports my argument that people are just being idiots for not upgrading. There is NO sensible excuse to still use XP when connected to the internet.

- 'Such invasive blablabla of our rights'. Support that with facts please. Show us how MS has 'violated' our privacy in ANY of its OS iterations including 10, please do, I'm curious... FWIW Microsoft relies heavily on its business, cloud (Azure) and services divisions, all of whom value privacy incredibly high. And then there are examples like this: 
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/trustcenter/compliance/eu-model-clauses
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/14/microsoft_wins_landmark_irish_warrant_case_against_usa/

- A TON of drawbacks you mentioned (3, 4?) are old news. All power user functionality in 10 is accessible, and can be made easily accessible too. Customization is better in 10, most notably of its Start menu. 10 is more flexible in every way.

I could go on, but most of what you have put forward is not supported by sources or facts, the other half is old news and what remains is purely personal taste. To each their own, but my Bullshit alarm went off bigtime when reading your response.


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## notb (Mar 27, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> - 'Popular opinion', where are those numbers? The adoption rate of 10 is pretty solid, especially when compared to previous OS versions. https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0
> 25% is extremely decent at this point in time.


While I agree with most you've said (W10 is in fact an excellent OS), we must be very careful with this one.
Structure of PC market has changed. Notebooks and tablets have dominated the landscape and with them you usually get the latest OS available.
Direct comparison to times when a lot more people had custom-built desktops is risky at best.

Also the Windows' versions quality varies and impacts the adoption rate - especially in commercial segment.
Windows XP/2000, 7 and now 10 were great and became popular in business PCs. The rest (Vista, 8) were not.
Windows 7 is still a standard OS in large corporations which are now slowly transitioning to 10.
8 was totally ignored as being very poor productivity-wise (yes, it's mostly about the Start menu).
Even today, when ordering a business PC directly from large vendors (Dell, Lenovo, HP etc), you can easily get Windows 7 and it has full support (drivers, service etc).

I still remember getting a business notebook from HP in 2007 (in a normal store, no business-style ordering). It had the Vista Business (released 2006) preinstalled, but HP also bundled XP Pro, which was almost 6 years old at that point.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 27, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> Things you said



Windows 7 can easily be made secure. Windows 10 can not. Windows 7 has no keystroke logging functions built into it. Windows 10 does and is not easily removed. 

People still using XP either have no reason or no desire to upgrade. In many cases doing so causes problems that have no solution in newer OS's. The cost of a complete system overhaul is not worth the trouble. 

You keep thinking what you want to think. I'll rely on experience through proven methodologies and evidence obtained to make my decisions and recommendations.


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## Frick (Mar 28, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> That there is some plain old BS.  Can't wait until they add Skylake to the list.



That was the original idea, as seen over a year ago.

People should move from Windows 7, or we'll have another XP situation again. Or move to Linux/Mac. If it sees new hardware I would not mind a reminder when running Windows Update (because why indeed are you running spanking new hardware on a near-decade old OS?) Fully blocking Windows Update is too much though.

Windows 8.1 should definitely get the updates though, as it's still on mainstream support. Class action lawsuit anyone? Another one?


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## Vayra86 (Mar 28, 2017)

lexluthermiester said:


> Windows 7 can easily be made secure. Windows 10 can not. Windows 7 has no keystroke logging functions built into it. Windows 10 does and is not easily removed.
> 
> People still using XP either have no reason or no desire to upgrade. In many cases doing so causes problems that have no solution in newer OS's. The cost of a complete system overhaul is not worth the trouble.
> 
> You keep thinking what you want to think. I'll rely on experience through proven methodologies and evidence obtained to make my decisions and recommendations.



Fact that your Windows opinion is even in your signature does not add to your legitimacy, just sayin'.

'Proven methodology' wut? Reading a few things on the web isn't a methodology.

About that keylogging...
http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/

As usual it is a bit more nuanced than that, and it is something you can easily turn off... Also keep in mind this was about whether or not upgrading was a bad thing. I still have trouble finding a legitimate reason not to when you're upgrading your hardware - the Windows XP argument isn't going to fly


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 28, 2017)

Vayra86 said:


> Fact that your Windows opinion is even in your signature does not add to your legitimacy, just sayin'.


My sig clearly states my point of view. Your child-like ramblings clearly show yours.



Vayra86 said:


> 'Proven methodology' wut? Reading a few things on the web isn't a methodology.


More childish nonsense. Clearly you understood.. /sarcasm\



Vayra86 said:


> About that keylogging...
> http://www.zdnet.com/article/does-windows-10-really-include-a-keylogger-spoiler-no/


ZDNET often can't tell the difference between their bum and a hole in the ground and frequently stick their head in both. They certainly are not worthy of offering authoritative information on the subject of Windows security. And the article you cited is as irrelevant as it is misguided[and mis-quoted]. Microsoft has ADMITTED to the keystroke logging in two parts of the OS, a service called "diagtrack" and Cortana. 



Vayra86 said:


> As usual it is a bit more nuanced than that, and it is something you can easily turn off...


OK



Vayra86 said:


> Also keep in mind this was about whether or not upgrading was a bad thing. I still have trouble finding a legitimate reason not to when you're upgrading your hardware


That was kind of the point, which you completely missed, again.



Vayra86 said:


> - the Windows XP argument isn't going to fly


Thanks mommy. Do you honestly think the folks hanging on to XP care, at all, whether YOU approve? Do you think they care about Microsoft?


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## kruk (Apr 19, 2017)

Some work has been done already on a workaround: https://github.com/zeffy/kb4012218-19
The author patched the device checking function IsDeviceServiceable to always return true and thus skipping the CPU check.

The modified updates might break things so use with care.


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## CGB (May 25, 2017)

I'm really getting tired of reading about why I shouldn't have built a new computer with the new generation Intel processors.  AT NO TIME did any hardware company, especially Intel, MSI, Corsair, and Asus, warn me that M$ will not update their new expensive hardware and motherboards, if I want to run a paid for, full copy of W7.  Nor did M$ warn me that they had no plans to service the new computers and would be blocking any critical updates.  I have not read anywhere, that W7 had gone the way of XP already.

I use M$ for one reason, it's the only OS that will run the software applications that I need for my business.  Now I find out, after spending 1.5k for a new rig, that I can't get needed updates.  And if it wasn't for their pathetically written, full of holes software, I wouldn't need their constant critical update fixes anyway.  They don't' even care enough about their long time costumers to at least explain what's at risk, just buy W10 or else.  Am I open for anyone who wants to attack my computer?  Will the Intel chip not function on rare occasions?  Will it stop my Asus board from running?  Let me know what the hell I'm going to miss and then let me decide what to buy before I spend the money!   I guess to be worth one trillion dollars isn't enough for Gates to at least have some respect for his long time customers.

I'm not a programmer or techie, I'm a contractor with a business to run, and really don't need to spend any more time than necessary messing with my computer software.


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## eidairaman1 (May 25, 2017)

CGB said:


> I'm really getting tired of reading about why I shouldn't have built a new computer with the new generation Intel processors.  AT NO TIME did any hardware company, especially Intel, MSI, Corsair, and Asus, warn me that M$ will not update their new expensive hardware and motherboards, if I want to run a paid for, full copy of W7.  Nor did M$ warn me that they had no plans to service the new computers and would be blocking any critical updates.  No where did I read that W7 had gone the way of XP already.
> 
> I use M$ for one reason, it's the only OS that will run the software applications that I need for my business.  Now I find out, after spending 1.5k for a new rig, that I can't get needed updates.  And if it wasn't for their pathetically written, full of holes software, I wouldn't need their constant critical update fixes anyway.  They don't' even care enough about their long time costumers to at least explain what's at risk, just buy W10 or else.  Am I open for anyone who wants to attack my computer?  Will the Intel chip not function on rare occasions?  Will it stop my Asus board from running?  Let me know what the hell I'm going to miss and then let me decide what to buy before I spend the money!   I guess to be worth one trillion dollars isn't enough for Gates to at least have some respect for his long time customers.
> 
> I'm not a programmer or techie, I'm a contractor with a business to run, and really don't need to spend any more time than necessary messing with my computer software.



Buy prebuilt, or send the CEO, CTO, of ms a letter, because ranting here doesn't get anything done.


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## TheOne (May 25, 2017)

CGB said:


> I'm really getting tired of reading about why I shouldn't have built a new computer with the new generation Intel processors.  AT NO TIME did any hardware company, especially Intel, MSI, Corsair, and Asus, warn me that M$ will not update their new expensive hardware and motherboards, if I want to run a paid for, full copy of W7.  Nor did M$ warn me that they had no plans to service the new computers and would be blocking any critical updates.  I have not read anywhere, that W7 had gone the way of XP already.
> 
> I use M$ for one reason, it's the only OS that will run the software applications that I need for my business.  Now I find out, after spending 1.5k for a new rig, that I can't get needed updates.  And if it wasn't for their pathetically written, full of holes software, I wouldn't need their constant critical update fixes anyway.  They don't' even care enough about their long time costumers to at least explain what's at risk, just buy W10 or else.  Am I open for anyone who wants to attack my computer?  Will the Intel chip not function on rare occasions?  Will it stop my Asus board from running?  Let me know what the hell I'm going to miss and then let me decide what to buy before I spend the money!   I guess to be worth one trillion dollars isn't enough for Gates to at least have some respect for his long time customers.
> 
> I'm not a programmer or techie, I'm a contractor with a business to run, and really don't need to spend any more time than necessary messing with my computer software.



There is a patch someone made that will allow you to update with Kaby and Ryzen, though I think he warns you that you use it at your own risk.

Activating Windows 10 with a Windows 7/8/8.1 key supposedly still works with Creator Update.

You could also try to return your Kaby Lake CPU and get a Skylake, it isn't currently blocked, though you many need to buy Windows 7 again.


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## notb (May 25, 2017)

CGB said:


> I'm not a programmer or techie, I'm a contractor with a business to run, and really don't need to spend any more time than necessary messing with my computer software.


Why not buy a prebuilt workstation (if you need more performance) or go mobile (if you don't)?
It has multiple advantages over custom builds. E.g. the onsite (in-home) service can be such a life-saver if you're running a business.


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