# F-35: Still no end in sight



## GorbazTheDragon (Mar 30, 2018)

http://www.pogo.org/straus/issues/weapons/2018/f-35-still-no-finish-line-in-sight.html


> Despite all of the effort, time, and money—17 years and over $133 billion—spent to date on the F-35 program, it is doubtful it will ever live up to the lavish promises made all those years ago when the Defense Department and Congress committed to the program. Hidden within the pages of the DOT&E report is this litotic summation:
> 
> “Finally and most importantly, the program will likely deliver Block 3F [the untested, allegedly “fully combat-capable” F-35 model now entering production] to the field with shortfalls in capabilities the F-35 needs in combat against current threats.”



No comment


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## silentbogo (Mar 30, 2018)

It's akin to gambling... You pour in so much cash, that your only chance at redemption is to pour some more and hope for an eventual jackpot.


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## GoldenX (Mar 30, 2018)

What about a traditional cheaper strike fighter? The USA didn't won WWII with a Me-262, it was with the P-51.


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## MyTechAddiction (Mar 30, 2018)

Its common among the military to lie about the real performance of their equipment.I remember a qoute from a war reporter " they lied about what they ( cruise missiles ) could do ; I´ve seen them literally turning in intersections"  .


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 30, 2018)

The problem with F-35 is feature creep.  It started with using the same airframe for three separate functions.  Then came the orders from other countries, each with their own requirements.  Then they wanted to replace the A-10 with it so they engineered the cannon pod.  Hell, the thing even shares engines with the LSR-B program for part commonality.  The aircraft is a million and one compromises now; ergo, it shall exceed at nothing.


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## bug (Mar 30, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> What about a traditional cheaper strike fighter? The USA didn't won WWII with a Me-262, it was with the P-51.


That's a thought that has bugged me for years. Unless you resolve everything in a blitzkrieg, production capacity is more important than technical prowess (see Tiger vs T-34 or Sherman; or anything with wings if you get my drift  ).
Yet for decades all USAF does is buy a number of units and then let the manufacturer literally dismantle the production lines. They probably know what they're doing, but for me, as an outsider, it feels like I'm missing something.

Edit: And something on topic, while the F-35 will probably never hit all the objectives that keep piling up, it has already hit a large number of them.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 30, 2018)

From what I've seen and heard, they should just keep the A-10s,  F-16s, F-15s and F-18s. Sure they are old but they were pretty effective.

It seems like ay this point they've invested so much money into it that they might aswell keep throwing money at it till its finished then cry about how mediocre it is


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## bug (Mar 30, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> From what I've seen and heard, they should just keep the A-10s,  F-16s, F-15s and F-22s. Sure they are old but they were pretty effective


Every one of those is still flying. They're not scraping the whole air force to make room for the F-35. Also, the F-15 and F-22 are air superiority fighters, one of the few roles the F-35 was never meant to fill.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 30, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> From what I've seen and heard, they should just keep the A-10s,  F-16s, F-15s and F-22s. Sure they are old but they were pretty effective.
> 
> It seems like ay this point they've invested so much money into it that they might aswell keep throwing money at it till its finished then cry about how mediocre it is



Is it possible for the Russians or Chinese to develop tiny/mobile limited range EMP devices? So lets say they use no electronics in some jets in a surprise move, even though the American jets are more advanced, would they be able to detonate those EMP's mid flight and basically cause the entire sky to be raining F-35's since those jets rely so heavily on electronics?


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 30, 2018)

bug said:


> Every one of those is still flying. They're not scraping the whole air force to make room for the F-35. Also, the F-15 and F-22 are air superiority fighters, one of the few roles the F-35 was never meant to fill.



Sorry i meant F-18s, i havent really seen f-15s as air superiority fighters. Mostly in ground pound roles


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## BarbaricSoul (Mar 30, 2018)

FreedomEclipse said:


> From what I've seen and heard, they should just keep the A-10s,  F-16s, F-15s and F-22s. Sure they are old but they were pretty effective.



Those are Air Force jets, the F35 is primarily a Navy/Marines jet (meaning they are used on Navy Carriers). No Air Force jets are capable of landing or launching on a carrier. Their
chassis can't handle the strain.



FreedomEclipse said:


> Sorry i meant F-18s, i havent really seen f-15s as air superiority fighters. Mostly in ground pound roles



The F15 is *THE BEST *Air Superiority fighter ever. Nothing has even came close to it's record*.*


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## bug (Mar 30, 2018)

BarbaricSoul said:


> Those are Air Force jets, the F35 is primarily a Navy/Marines jet (meaning they are used on Navy Carriers). No Air Force jets are capable of landing or launching on a carrier. Their chassis can't handle the strain.



It's actually everything you said _and_ an air force jet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Variants


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## BarbaricSoul (Mar 30, 2018)

thought the AF backed out of getting them, guess I'm wrong

my biggest problem with the F35 is that the Navy needs a 5th gen carrier-based air superiority fighter to replace the Super Hornets, and the F35 is not it.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 30, 2018)

bug said:


> Every one of those is still flying. They're not scraping the whole air force to make room for the F-35. Also, the F-15 and F-22 are air superiority fighters, one of the few roles the F-35 was never meant to fill.


F-35 was intended to replace AV-8B, F-16, and F-18.  Army would love for it to replace A-10 too but that's wishful thinking.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Mar 30, 2018)

adjust your volume


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## bug (Mar 30, 2018)

FordGT90Concept said:


> F-35 was intended to replace AV-8B, F-16, and F-18.  Army would love for it to replace A-10 too but that's wishful thinking.


Replacing the A-10 is like trying to replace carbon as the basis of life as we know it. It does its thing _that_ well.
And just to brag a little, I still remember my time in Tucson, AZ, mainly because of how many A-10s I used too see every day.


BarbaricSoul said:


> thought the AF backed out of getting them, guess I'm wrong
> 
> my biggest problem with the F35 is that the Navy needs a 5th gen carrier-based air superiority fighter to replace the Super Hornets, and the F35 is not it.


With the sheer number of changes the program had, nobody can blame you for not keeping up to date 
And I also have no idea what's supposed to replace the Super Hornets.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 30, 2018)

bug said:


> Every one of those is still flying. They're not scraping the whole air force to make room for the F-35. Also, the F-15 and F-22 are air superiority fighters, one of the few roles the F-35 was never meant to fill.



Well speaking for the Dutch, yes the F16's are still flying but don't ask how. The cost of keeping them maintained & in the air is tremendous by now, these planes are way past expiry date.

'We' jumped in on the F35 early as well, but the resistance to doing so has existed since the start and the reasons are exactly what you see today. It still isn't what it should be.

The whole thing's giving me that familiar 'Duke Nukem Forever' vibe. So long in development that time makes it obsolete.


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## droopyRO (Mar 30, 2018)

The Israelis are selling some F-16s to Croatia. That could mean some F-35s will be operational and if they are good for the Israelis, than they are good.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 30, 2018)

droopyRO said:


> The Israelis are selling some F-16s to Croatia. That could mean some F-35s will be operational and if they are good for the Israelis, than they are good.



Speculation  as its well published that F35 Maintenance is to be done in "Special Maintenance Sites "
Regional one for Europe and Near East is reported to be in Turkey  ( Do you See the Problem there )


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## bug (Mar 30, 2018)

droopyRO said:


> The Israelis are selling some F-16s to Croatia. That could mean some F-35s will be operational and if they are good for the Israelis, than they are good.


Look at the link I've posted above. They are operational for more than one country. But they aren't produced in significant numbers just yet.

@dorsetknob Turkey is the second largest army in NATO and also the largest buyer of F35s outside the US. Not saying there isn't a problem, but the placement of the maintenance center was probably a good idea at the time.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 30, 2018)

with out getting into religion and politics (Difficult and awkward)
Turkey is also Procuring weapon systems From Russia and is a Muslim Nation
This is posing questions within Nato and other Interested Partners


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 30, 2018)

Off topic but Saudi Arabia is buying some BAE Typhoons


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 30, 2018)

F-35 comes in 3 Versions, A, B, C

A is CvTOL, B is STOVL, C is CrTOL; Air Force, Marine Corp, Navy.

F-35s are designed to replace the Oldest Aircraft in each Fleet.

A model for oldest F-16A and some C Models, not CG/CJ.

F-22 Replaces the F-15A and Oldest F-15Cs

USAF never fitted the F-15A/C model for A-G ops like Israel did, hence the F-15E for USAF.

F-35C Replaces the F/A-18A/C

F-35B replaces the AV8-B and F/A-18A/C

I got to See F-35 #AA-1 in 2009 in person while I was In, hence my Avatar Picture, Saw It Land in Florida.


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## Norton (Mar 31, 2018)

To those members wondering where their posts went, I direct you to the forum guidelines (recently refreshed):

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/forum-guidelines.197329/post-3056287

Highly recommended reading


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 31, 2018)

bug said:


> Yet for decades all USAF does is buy a number of units and then let the manufacturer literally dismantle the production lines.


Yep! That’s the situation now with the A-10.  The decision has been made to keep the 235 of them into the 2030’s, yet they need new wings to do it.  The Air Force didn’t want it anymore, but the Army begged for them to keep them. Congress stepped in and here we are, keeping the awesome A-10.

The original production lines are gone, so a new contract has been let with a new manufacturer just to replace the very stressed wings.  It will be more expensive because it is considered an entirely new construction, whereas if they had lines always producing something it would just be an upgrade, which is cheaper.

The same situation will eventually happen 20-30 years from now with the F-35 airframe, in some form.


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## Ebo (Mar 31, 2018)

Well we ordred it some time ago for delivery in 2020. The price for the airplane dosent really concirn me, just give us the planes we have paid fore.


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## bug (Mar 31, 2018)

Norton said:


> To those members wondering where their posts went, I direct you to the forum guidelines (recently refreshed):
> 
> https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/forum-guidelines.197329/post-3056287
> 
> Highly recommended reading


Once again I would like to take the opportunity to say that when you warn someone, delete one of their posts and whatnot, a PM is in order. Otherwise, what's the point of slapping one's wrist if they don;t know it?


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## Norton (Mar 31, 2018)

bug said:


> Once again I would like to take the opportunity to say that when you warn someone, delete one of their posts and whatnot, a PM is in order. Otherwise, what's the point of slapping one's wrist if they don;t know it?


Could have deleted the post and gave you some points along with a PM- deleting and posting in the thread was your "_PM_".

If you wish to discuss feel free to PM me- further off-topic discussion in a thread is not necessary


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## DuckbillTurkopus (Mar 31, 2018)

BarbaricSoul said:


> my biggest problem with the F35 is that the Navy needs a 5th gen carrier-based air superiority fighter to replace the Super Hornets, and the F35 is not it.





bug said:


> And I also have no idea what's supposed to replace the Super Hornets.



Super Hornets will not be replaced for a long time.  They're still being produced and are expected to stay in service until at least the 2040s, possibly the 2050s.  The sheer adaptability of the Super Hornet cannot be replaced by something as immature as the F35, as it's still even in its incipient stages.  Aircraft, especially fighters, take so long after their initial production to have a fully functional (as intended) aircraft ready for what it was originally designed for.  It's not so much the company's fault, but rather the nature of the business.  There are so many factors and problems that have to be tweaked as it goes along and they will still be fixing problems in the JSF a decade from now.  They've been deployed but not in full capacity since there are still plenty of tweaks.  Since it's already late and way over budget (as are most programs) they had to quickly slap together a functional version for the Services to use overseas while they perfect the model back at home.  But most aircraft are like this.  They're still tweaking and fixing some problems in the Super Hornet (while also coming out with the advanced model).  Hopefully they find a balance in between the JSF and Super Hornets.  Besides, my whole goal is to end up in a Super Hornet, hopefully not a Lightning II.  (But I'm more of a beggar so I can't be a chooser).  Cheers


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## bug (Mar 31, 2018)

Thanks @DuckbillTurkopus . I figured that might be the case when I read about the treatment Super Hornets received to lower their radar cross section. That doesn't look like something you do for stuff that's on its way out. I just wasn't sure.


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## Easo (Mar 31, 2018)

Reading that page I cannot shake the feeling that the author has some bias...
In any case, do note some things:
1. There are close to 300 F-35's delivered now. Nobody would deliver so many planes if they were not usable/in protoype state.
2. A lot of those were delivered to US allies. For example, if Israel chose them, then the plane has to be good enough. Do remember, Israel has one of the most experienced air force in the world.
3. You also kinda HAVE to replace the F-15/16, no matter how good they might be. Problem with USA airforce is that it doesn't fly stuff like F-16 E/F Block 60, but older, upgraded variants. The airframes are worn out and have been constantly refurbished to extend their service lives. Years and years of flying above Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere has led to acceleration in wearing the planes out faster than they were supposed to.
You could go and replace the entire park with just newer models, but that still means staying on 4th gen planes while others move forward.
4. Look at Su-57. It also has suffered from various problems, failures and delays in new component delivery plus the scale is very, very small compared to the giant that is the F-35 program. But the problems are not 100% unique to F-35. Stealth is hard, yo.


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## TheGuruStud (Mar 31, 2018)

How else do you expect them to increase spending indefinitely, so they can give it to their criminal financiers? Traitors all the way up.

Aside from the obvious plot to spend money, it's impossible for a general purpose design to accel at anything. Think general purpose CPU like we're using...

They've already had to literally strongarm countries into buying this pile of crap LOL. Yeah, what a winner.


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## Divide Overflow (Mar 31, 2018)

Just imagine the ridicule for the first enemy pilot shot down by an F-35!


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## eidairaman1 (Apr 1, 2018)

Divide Overflow said:


> Just imagine the ridicule for the first enemy pilot shot down by an F-35!



Yup gotta love the amateurs here, aka the keyboard warrior...


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