# Intel Scraps 10nm for Desktop, Brazen it Out with 14nm Skylake Till 2022?



## btarunr (Oct 14, 2019)

In a shocking piece of news, Intel has reportedly scrapped plans to launch its 10 nm "Ice Lake" microarchitecture on the client desktop platform. The company will confine its 10 nm microarchitectures, "Ice Lake" and "Tiger Lake" to only the mobile platform, while the desktop platform will see derivatives of "Skylake" hold Intel's fort under the year 2022! Intel gambles that with HyperThreading enabled across the board and increased clock-speeds, it can restore competitiveness with AMD's 7 nm "Zen 2" Ryzen processors with its "Comet Lake" silicon that offers core-counts of up to 10.

"Comet Lake" will be succeeded in 2021 by the 14 nm "Rocket Lake" silicon, which somehow combines a Gen12 iGPU with "Skylake" derived CPU cores, and possibly increased core-counts and clock speeds over "Comet Lake." It's only 2022 that Intel will ship out a truly new microarchitecture on the desktop platform, with "Meteor Lake." This chip will be built on Intel's swanky 7 nm EUV silicon fabrication node, and possibly integrate CPU cores more advanced than even "Willow Cove," possibly "Golden Cove." 






The HardwareLuxx article making these explosive revelations attributes the sudden change in Intel's plans to the company not being able to scale clock-speeds of "Ice Lake" high enough to establish product leadership. It feels "Skylake," which has IPC parity with "Zen 2," has enough scalability and clock-speed headroom to stay competitive with AMD at high clock-speeds. The company will augment next-generation uncore (revamped memory controllers, support for PCIe gen 4.0, Gen12 iGPU, etc.), with "Skylake" CPU cores, over time. Other areas where Intel could grow its mainstream desktop silicon is cache rebalancing similar to its HEDT chips, and implementing the Mesh Interconnect to maintain low latencies as core-counts enter two-figures.

Interestingly, 10 nm "Ice Lake" remains on Intel's enterprise roadmap, where the company appears more desperate not to cede market-share to AMD, especially as businesses around the world set their 5G plans rolling, springing a cycle of hardware updates in the data-center. 2020 could see the introduction of Xeon Scalable processors based on 10 nm "Ice Lake" microarchitecture with "Sunny Cove" CPU cores. In 2021, the company will introduce the "Sapphire Rapids" Xeon processor with even more cores and larger I/O connectivity, spearheaded with PCI-Express gen 5.0.

*Update Oct 15th*: Intel has released a statement, denying these claims, read more here.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

If it ain't broke... 
Oh, right...


----------



## phanbuey (Oct 14, 2019)

I think everyone saw this coming.  AMD Stock, here I come.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 14, 2019)

_Rolls 2D6 _... "come on lucky 7, lucky 7...."


----------



## Raendor (Oct 14, 2019)

Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.


----------



## dicktracy (Oct 14, 2019)

Intel can afford it and AMD needs the money. What’s not to like?


----------



## mashie (Oct 14, 2019)

So what about 10nm for the servers? Is that also scrapped?


----------



## sepheronx (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.


I don't see how AM4 is almost dead.  What makes it almost dead?


----------



## Muser99 (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> If it ain't broke...
> Oh, right...



But is this the big issue, it is broken!  There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown?  The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?


----------



## Dave65 (Oct 14, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I think everyone saw this coming.  AMD Stock, here I come.



Done did it


----------



## Raendor (Oct 14, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> I don't see how AM4 is almost dead.  What makes it almost dead?



well, it’s highly unlikely zen 3 will release on am4, and even so, it’s not expected to be any significant uplift over zen2. So amd will at best only match intel in gaming.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.


What do you mean, almost dead? There's a new CPU coming out next year.  Beyond that, we only have rumours of a move to DDR5, but it's not impossible to do a memory controller that supports two types of memory, we've had that several times in the past. No-one really knows what AMD has planned.


----------



## Tomorrow (Oct 14, 2019)

Yep told you so. My post from last week:



Tomorrow said:


> Sorry to break it to you but next year we will only get 14nm++++ Comet Lake that goes up to 10c/20t at 5Ghz. Nothing too exciting.
> 10nm products will only come to laptops for the next few years due low core counts. 10nm will not be released on desktop before 2022 and may well be skipped alltogether if Intel's 7nm picks up. But considering 10nm woes i would not hold my breath on that.
> 
> DDR5 will come to servers first in 2021 and mainstream problably 2022. No word on PCI-E 5.0 but considering how costly it was to implement 4.0 on X570 with signal repeaters and many layer PCB's i don't expect quick progress on that front in mainstream. Plus there are no mainstream devices yet that fully utilize 4.0 bandwidth.
> ...


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

mashie said:


> So what about 10nm for the servers? Is that also scrapped?


No, see the source link.



Muser99 said:


> But is this the big issue, it is broken!  There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown?  The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?


Sorry, it was a bit of a joke, considering all the issues Intel has had. It's not impossible that they'll fix all the known issues by the time this thing comes out.


----------



## Vya Domus (Oct 14, 2019)

mashie said:


> So what about 10nm for the servers? Is that also scrapped?



While on desktop their mindshare will still carry them for the next couple of years, on the server side of things this is starting to become something critical.

I can't see them being able to do anything without a new node. No matter what they'll do, discounts, price cuts, etc some will just need to buy the fastest thing out there and AMD seems to got it.


----------



## Rahnak (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too


By that logic, every Intel platform in the last decade or so has been DOA.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> well, it’s highly unlikely zen 3 will release on am4, and even so, it’s not expected to be any significant uplift over zen2. So amd will at best only match intel in gaming.


Sorry, what? Zen 3 will be AM4 with DDR4, so why is it highly unlikely?
Zen 3 is expected to be to Zen 2, what Zen 2 was to Zen 1/1+ in terms of performance increase.


----------



## Aquinus (Oct 14, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I think everyone saw this coming.  AMD Stock, here I come.


Buying now is probably a bad idea IMHO. It wasn't that long ago since I sold off my shares. I think AMD has hit a relative peak and the risk for more gain definitely didn't outweigh the improvement up to that point.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Buying now is probably a bad idea IMHO. It wasn't that long ago since I sold off my shares. I think AMD has hit a relative peak and the risk for more gain definitely didn't outweigh the improvement up to that point.



Uhm, they've dropped $6-7 in value over the past month...
They're still down about $4.50 from their peak valuation this year.


----------



## Hardware Geek (Oct 14, 2019)

mashie said:


> So what about 10nm for the servers? Is that also scrapped?



From the article: "2020 could see the introduction of Xeon Scalable processors based on 10 nm "Ice Lake" microarchitecture with "Sunny Cove" CPU cores."


----------



## Calmmo (Oct 14, 2019)

big ooof, 2 years away from being 1 year away. Could be worse I suppose, like ARM trying to break into desktop PCs.. oh wait.


----------



## Hardware Geek (Oct 14, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> I don't see how AM4 is almost dead.  What makes it almost dead?


It really depends on whether or not you think zen 3 will require a new socket, thereby ending upgradability on AM4 and TR4.
I don't think that will happen until zen 4, but with DDR5, PCIE 5, etc, I expect that to require a major upgrade and break socket compatibility.


----------



## Zareek (Oct 14, 2019)

Wow... I hope AMD doesn't take this as a signal they can let off the gas now.


----------



## DuxCro (Oct 14, 2019)

Pffffhahahhaha! This is embarrasing. So intel thinks of competing with AMD on 14nm until 2022? And AMD is switching to 7nm+ next year. By 2022 AMD will be on 5nm.


----------



## Tomgang (Oct 14, 2019)

Alright that's it. Goodbye shintel, I'm going amd and ryzen 9 3950X.

If Intel stays on 14 NM until 2022. There are really not coming much existing cpu releases the coming two years from Intel to desktop then and I will not support intels "old tech" they used since 2014/2015. I'm tired of Intel reusing old tech and milk the same cow over and over again.

Maybe I will return to intel when they get there 7 nm out. But for now, it's goodbye. I'm joining team red.


----------



## Aquinus (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> Uhm, they've dropped $6-7 in value over the past month...
> They're still down about $4.50 from their peak valuation this year.


I'm happy with my gain. I try not to worry about what could have been.


----------



## dont whant to set it"' (Oct 14, 2019)

"all hands on oem/Enterprise lineups" it would seem and yet, was I, the average Joe kept in the shady darkness of almost all node variants on the 14 nm node that those came to be in the diy/consumer market?


----------



## silentbogo (Oct 14, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> I don't see how AM4 is almost dead. What makes it almost dead?





TheLostSwede said:


> What do you mean, almost dead? There's a new CPU coming out next year.


Ryzen 3000-series is probably going to be the last sAM4 chip. AMD's initial plans were to support the platform throughout 2020.
Not sure what's coming next, maybe they'll change their mind and keep it for another gen. It's hard to believe, but starting w/ Bristol Ridge we are already past a 3-year mark. If EOL will be extended by another 3 years, sAM4 will beat LGA775 in terms of longevity.


----------



## Bones (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> well, it’s highly unlikely zen 3 will release on am4, and even so, it’s not expected to be any significant uplift over zen2. So amd will at best only match intel in gaming.


With Intel deciding to stay with 14nm and AMD is already nipping their heels.... Right now?
Putting things off until 2022 to even release another desktop arch?
Yeah, right........

You don't innovate you don't compete, it's that simple and Intel just isn't getting it done. Intel right now is in a deep hole and it's getting really dim down there, they say 2022 and that's a bad sign. Things can change, no doubt but as things are now I don't see that changing anytime soon.
AMD has them by the proverbial nads and they know it.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

silentbogo said:


> Ryzen 3000-series is probably going to be the last sAM4 chip. AMD's initial plans were to support the platform throughout 2020.
> Not sure what's coming next, maybe they'll change their mind and keep it for another gen. It's hard to believe, but starting w/ Bristol Ridge we are already past a 3-year mark. If EOL will be extended by another 3 years, sAM4 will beat LGA775 in terms of longevity.


Sorry, but where did you get this information? That goes against everything that's known about AM4 and Zen.


----------



## Imsochobo (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but where did you get this information? That goes against everything that's known about AM4 and Zen.


Amd have said several times Am4 through 2020


----------



## silentbogo (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but where did you get this information? That goes against everything that's known about AM4 and Zen.








						AMD Community | AMD
					

Join AMD Community, a forum for members to discuss the hottest AMD topics or stop by to read the latest blogs & news about all things AMD. Check it out!




					community.amd.com


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

Imsochobo said:


> Amd have said several times Am4 through 2020





silentbogo said:


> AMD Community | AMD
> 
> 
> Join AMD Community, a forum for members to discuss the hottest AMD topics or stop by to read the latest blogs & news about all things AMD. Check it out!
> ...


Exactly, so Zen 3 in 2020 on AM4. Not on a new socket. I don't know how you two read.








						AMD Ryzen 2018-2020 Roadmap leaked: Castle Peak, Matisse, Picasso, Vermeer and Renoir | VideoCardz.com
					

AMD Ryzen 2000 AMD Ryzen Threadripper (Zen2) codenamed Castle Peak AMD has recently held a special event for retailers and distributors. A new roadmap has been shown




					videocardz.com
				











						CPU-Roadmap 2022/2023: Aktuelle und künftige AMD- und Intel-Prozessoren [Update]
					

Die Prozessor-Roadmap für 2022/2023: Welche AMD- und Intel-CPUs sind erschienen und werden voraussichtlich erscheinen? PCGH fasst für Sie zusammen!




					www.pcgameshardware.de


----------



## Dave65 (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.


AM4 is almost dead?
Someone better call AMD and tell them.


----------



## TTPPUU (Oct 14, 2019)

waiting till 2022+ then

more money saved


----------



## Raendor (Oct 14, 2019)

Dave65 said:


> AM4 is almost dead?
> Someone better call AMD and tell them.



they know it quite well, since they stated support ending in 2020 themselves from the beginning. We’re in October 2019, so 2020 says hello knocking on the door.


----------



## silentbogo (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> Exactly, so Zen 3 in 2020 on AM4. Not on a new socket. I don't know how you two read.


I read just fine. "Unofficial roadmaps", "leaks" and "rumors" are not my thing. Until AMD states that Zen3 is coming in 2020 and will be on AM4, all rumors and leaks are irrelevant. We are nearly at the due date and AMD still has lots of stuff to do for the current gen, like releasing 3950x, finishing work on TR-3000, getting some Zen2-powered APUs ready to go and sorting things out in mobile segment. Lots of work, not much time.
If supposed  Zen 3 (Ryzen-4000 series I mean) actually manages to launch next year and actually is on AM4, it'll be simply a 7nm+ refresh of Zen2 with minimal changes and hopefully a slight clock boost. 
I also do hope that AMD changes their mind and prolongs sAM4 EOL by another few years, but they did give us a heads-up many moons ago and they did officially repeat this EOL statement on many occasions, including this year.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

silentbogo said:


> I read just fine. "Unofficial roadmaps", "leaks" and "rumors" are not my thing. Until AMD states that Zen3 is coming in 2020 and will be on AM4, all rumors and leaks are irrelevant. We are nearly at the due date and AMD still has lots of stuff to do for the current gen, like releasing 3950x, finishing work on TR-3000, getting some Zen2-powered APUs ready to go and sorting things out in mobile segment. Lots of work, not much time.
> If supposed  Zen 3 (Ryzen-4000 series I mean) actually manages to launch next year and actually is on AM4, it'll be simply a 7nm+ refresh of Zen2 with minimal changes and hopefully a slight clock boost.
> I also do hope that AMD changes their mind and prolongs sAM4 EOL by another few years, but they did give us a heads-up many moons ago and they did officially repeat this EOL statement on many occasions, including this year.


So you refute rumours and then you throw in a bunch of assumptions with no basis on any facts... Right, makes total sense...


----------



## Vayra86 (Oct 14, 2019)

Woopsie, told ya  That didn't take long then.

Maybe they'll try to yank 14 gens out of 14nm now, just for the cohesion, I mean why not.



TheLostSwede said:


> So you refute rumours and then you throw in a bunch of assumptions with no basis on any facts... Right, makes total sense...



Well, paper launch is a real thing, right - but its still a launch. And that is an important nuance I think @silentbogo is overlooking here.

Definitely something other than 'an announcement' or 'a press release' like we've seen daily from Intel


----------



## chodaboy19 (Oct 14, 2019)

They will keep patching their 14nm+++++ with PCIe 4.0 and other standards to keep it up to date. I think if all this is true then it makes sense from a business perspective to stop wasting money and effort to get 10nm on track and just skip ahead to 7nm. Painful in the short term but intel doesn't really have a choice. Intel can't sell what it doesn't have!


----------



## Nihilus (Oct 14, 2019)

I doubt Zen 3 will be AM4.  Zen 2+ on the other hand, most definitely.


----------



## biffzinker (Oct 14, 2019)

Hopefully Intel works out the remaining kinks fabbing mobile chips on their 10nm process for the move to 7nm. Imagine this happening again with a repeat of delays, and cancellations of upcoming chips on the 7nm process.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

Nihilus said:


> I doubt Zen 3 will be AM4.  Zen 2+ on the other hand, most definitely.


There is no Zen 2+, just like there is no spoon...


----------



## silentbogo (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> So you refute rumours and then you throw in a bunch of assumptions with no basis on any facts... Right, makes total sense...


I'm stating that platform ends in 2020 and there is no official info on Zen 3 to verify that it's going to be sAM4. I see no assumptions or rumors here.


----------



## Vayra86 (Oct 14, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> Hopefully Intel works out the remaining kinks fabbing mobile chips on their 10nm process for the move to 7nm. Imagine this happening again with a repeat of delays, and cancellations of upcoming chips on the 7nm process.



Honestly I think part of the reason Intel's 10nm failed is exactly the time to market itself. Every year they had to postpone it was another year for 14nm to flourish and gain perf increases, reducing the gap to what 10nm would be balanced at. At the cost of power, but who cares about that for desktop or in the baby steps that figure takes over the years. I mean, it took Intel a decade to get their CPUs from 77W to 65W errrr 95W errr probably much more if you enter the BIOS...

And every year, the low-power optimized 10nm offering would turn more and more ridiculous. I mean who wants a low clocked low power chip that does worse but saves people 10 minutes of battery time? And also in marketing, how do you explain shedding as much as 25% of your clockspeeds to a simpleton? From AMD we accepted it because FX was so shit at 5Ghz and we had a decade to come to terms with it... though *even *for Zen, the main complaint was clockspeed limitations in the consumer segment!


----------



## notb (Oct 14, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> While on desktop their mindshare will still carry them for the next couple of years, on the server side of things this is starting to become something critical.


Worry less, read more. 

The 2 important platforms: servers and mobile get 10nm.
Desktops stay on 14nm.
IMO this was quite obvious from the start. We knew the new node will be problematic and not all segments will get it.

It shouldn't be a huge problem. Realistically, Intel will be able to make competitive 14nm CPUs up to 8 cores, so the mainstream is covered (office/home desktops). The high-end stuff that can benefit from 7/10nm is so small Intel just doesn't bother.
It could have been different if they were able to ask the prices they used to. AMD aggressive pricing means the margins are down and high-end desktops aren't attractive anymore.

What this will mean is: AMD will rule in this segment and likely increase their prices.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Oct 14, 2019)

silentbogo said:


> I'm stating that platform ends in 2020 and there is no official info on Zen 3 to verify that it's going to be sAM4. I see no assumptions or rumors here.


So what's this then?


silentbogo said:


> If supposed  Zen 3 (Ryzen-4000 series I mean) actually manages to launch next year and actually is on AM4, it'll be simply a 7nm+ refresh of Zen2 with minimal changes and hopefully a slight clock boost.


You're filling in blanks with your own assumptions and guesses there. Is that any better than the rumours?
Zen 3 is expected to offer the same boost in performance that Zen 2 did over Zen/Zen+, but you're free to believe otherwise.
So far, AMD has delivered and there's no reason to doubt that they'll not continue to do so for at least a little while longer.


----------



## Vayra86 (Oct 14, 2019)

notb said:


> Worry less, read more.
> 
> The 2 important platforms: servers and mobile get 10nm.
> Desktops stay on 14nm.
> ...



Mobile? Where's that product stack then? What they've got is a POC, at best.


----------



## Renald (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm laughing so hard right now 

I remember the Roadmap from 2 years ago : "it's ok, we're finishing the process in 10nm, and going further".
Then they got short on stock due their inability to provide laptops to businesses.
And know they totally flushed Desktop.

So, AMD is already crushing on Desktop market, and they will start to attack on Mobile since they have no real opposition in Desktop (Zen 3 is on the rails).


----------



## notb (Oct 14, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> You're filling in blanks with your own assumptions and guesses there. Is that any better than the rumours?
> Zen 3 is expected to offer the same boost in performance that Zen 2 did over Zen/Zen+, but you're free to believe otherwise.


I don't see how his pessimistic guess is any worse than your optimistic one.

At this point there aren't even sensible leaks about Zen 3. It's all just hopes and sarcasm - depending on which side of bed you prefer.


> So far, AMD has delivered and there's no reason to doubt that they'll not continue to do so for at least a little while longer.


In the 10% market share their able to cover with TSMC supply. 


Vayra86 said:


> Mobile? Where's that product stack then? What they've got is a POC, at best.


Mobile segment means laptops.


----------



## HD64G (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> well, it’s highly unlikely zen 3 will release on am4, and even so, it’s not expected to be any significant uplift over zen2. So amd will at best only match intel in gaming.


Zen3 will be for AM4 for sure. And will have both IPC and clock improvements. Intel is already behind in IPC, efficiency and pricing and just a bit ahead in gaming and will get in a tougher position soon with 3950X and TR4 launching imminently. So, you were saying?


----------



## simdeb123 (Oct 14, 2019)

sepheronx said:


> I don't see how AM4 is almost dead.  What makes it almost dead?


Well AM5 and DDR5 will both most likely be releasing 2021, so 2020 which is quite close frankly will be the last year for AM4 and ryzen 4000 series


----------



## sepheronx (Oct 14, 2019)

simdeb123 said:


> Well AM5 and DDR5 will both most likely be releasing 2021, so 2020 which is quite close frankly will be the last year for AM4 and ryzen 4000 series



Unless you have a source, you are just guessing.  AM5..... Now thats funny.  Let us wait for AM4 to release before we guess more, ok?


----------



## Frick (Oct 14, 2019)

Just rebrand 10nm+n to 7nm. She'll be fine.


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 14, 2019)

HD64G said:


> Zen3 will be for AM4 for sure. And will have both IPC and clock improvements. Intel is already behind in IPC, efficiency and pricing and just a bit ahead in gaming and will get in a tougher position soon with 3950X and TR4 launching imminently. So, you were saying?



yep rumors are 10% bump IPC since it will be 7nm EUV this time. prob summer 2020 release for ryzen 4700x, which is what i am going to buy.


----------



## Metroid (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm very happy I went with ryzen 5 3600 and you will be too for the same reason why this article was written.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Oct 14, 2019)

HD64G said:


> Zen3 will be for AM4 for sure. And will have both IPC and clock improvements. Intel is already behind in IPC, efficiency and pricing and just a bit ahead in gaming and will get in a tougher position soon with 3950X and TR4 launching imminently. So, you were saying?


ah the mythical ipc and the endless argument.who cares about ipc.
and from what I can see in the tpu review 9600k is not only faster than 3900x in games but in a whole bunch of other typically single thread heavy office tasks.other ones use multi threading at least to some extent so it's a pointless comparison.

that said,I can see ryzen 4000 deliver really good performance.with 3000 they made good improvements so hopefully they'll continue on the right track.


----------



## Tomorrow (Oct 14, 2019)

Relax. Ryzen 4000 will be AM4 compatible. I would rather worry about chipset compatibility. Ryzen 4000 on a B350 board? Maybe. A320 - problably not.
AM5/DDR5 will be 2021 at the earliest.

When it comes to Zen 3 then current leaks point to unified 32MB L3 for one chiplet (currently each CCD within a chiplet has it's own 16MB cache) and 3-way SMT on desktop and 4-way in servers. Supposedly also 200Mhz clock bump and 8-10% IPC uplift. So more meaningful upgrade than Zen+ was to Zen but not as major as Zen 2 was to Zen+.

Besides considering the massive AM4 install base i would not rule out the possibility of cross socket compatible Ryzen 5000 series that has both DDR4 and DDR5 capable memory controller built in.


----------



## TheGuruStud (Oct 14, 2019)

Hardware Geek said:


> From the article: "2020 could see the introduction of Xeon Scalable processors based on 10 nm "Ice Lake" microarchitecture with "Sunny Cove" CPU cores."



Aka glue quad cores together from mobile and hope they can give them away for free to hold the mass exodus to epyc.

But they will be in very limited supply, so game over man.


----------



## biffzinker (Oct 14, 2019)

In the mean time it would appear Intel is up to their usual tactics against the competition. Not officially confirmed yet.








			
				Guru3D said:
			
		

> Intel has been reserving 3 billion dollars aside to offer 'discounts' to its customers, and there actually is a photo to back that claim. The recent official unveiling of Cascade Lake X might already the result of that program as the CPUs are selling twice as low per core compared to the chips from Intel's previous generation.
> 
> The intended effect if the 3B reservation would include price reductions that would make AMD less profitable.











						Intel reportedly reserved $ 3 billion in 2019 to competitively block AMD
					

Intel has been reserving 3 billion dollars aside to offer 'discounts' to its customers, and there actually is a photo to back that claim. The recent official unveiling of Cascade Lake X might alread...




					www.guru3d.com


----------



## cucker tarlson (Oct 14, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> In the mean time it would appear Intel is up to their usual tactics against the competition. Not officially confirmed yet.
> 
> View attachment 134150
> 
> ...


cascade lake is nothing special really.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Oct 14, 2019)

Intel constantly changes up sockets - folks don't really complain and accept it.

AMD is on the verge of changing sockets after 2020 and folks are freaking the F out!


----------



## kumbandit (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.



Yeah you're solid with 6700K until new AM socket and DDR5 come out for the masses, and then you should make the jump. Also, what????????? Zen 3 will not be an improvement over Zen 2? Maybe if you listen to intel fanboys, but any market analyst will tell you we're expecting some 30% increase in performance, and better yet, improvement in the efficiency and latency, stop believing what intel wants you to believe, that GHz and 300+ FPS in 1080p is all that matters, cuz it's ridiculous... Ryzen is already ridiculously powerful for anything, game devs need to get their ass in gear and make games that can utilize the power...
Food for thought:


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 14, 2019)

Called this years ago, as expected they're jumping straight to 7nm so all those schedule table's with 10,,nm eternally just around the corner were hogwash, total balls.
2022 , wow not great news so were getting two more years of optimised skylake.


----------



## Frick (Oct 14, 2019)

cucker tarlson said:


> ah the mythical ipc and the endless argument.who cares about ipc.
> and from what I can see in the tpu review 9600k is not only faster than 3900x in games but in a whole bunch of other typically single thread heavy office tasks.other ones use multi threading at least to some extent so it's a pointless comparison.
> 
> that said,I can see ryzen 4000 deliver really good performance.with 3000 they made good improvements so hopefully they'll continue on the right track.



A higherIPC is the reason for your second sentence. Am I missing your point maybe?


----------



## Super XP (Oct 14, 2019)

AMD needs to capitalize on this news as much as possible. 
I expect triple digit % gains in CPU market share.


----------



## phanbuey (Oct 14, 2019)

Super XP said:


> AMD needs to capitalize on this news as much as possible.
> I expect triple digit % gains in CPU market share.



The question is... Will Jim Keller and Meteor Lake deliver?  Or will they have density/process issues again?

It will get really spicy if they push ML to 2023.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 14, 2019)

Raendor said:


> Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.


Here is AMD's QUOTE:
*



			With the launch of the AM4 platform in 2016, we at AMD made a commitment to maintain and support socket AM4 through 2020.
AMD - May 26, 2019
		
Click to expand...

*
That said, ZEN 3 will be on Socket AM4. ZEN 4 may see Socket AM4+. But 99% of the user base that builds there own PCs usually always upgrade there CPUs and Motherboards together. To get to my point, if AMD releases a new socket, that doesn't make AM4 obsolete. Never did in the past and never will in the future, LOL 



phanbuey said:


> The question is... Will Jim Keller and Meteor Lake deliver?  Or will they have density/process issues again?
> 
> It will get really spicy if they push ML to 2023.


I think Jim Keller will deliver but it will take 4 - 5 years from when he was hired. The question is when and like you said, density/process issues may also be a limiting factor overall.
AMD has the perfect opportunity to continue to deliver and increase its market share while Intel is struggling.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 14, 2019)

Frick said:


> Just rebrand 10nm+n to 7nm. She'll be fine.


you forgot the "@INTEL" in that. 



neatfeatguy said:


> Intel constantly changes up sockets - folks don't really complain and accept it.
> 
> AMD is on the verge of changing sockets after 2020 and folks are freaking the F out!


IF, and thats a big IF, its likely to be minor change to AM4+ until 2022-23.


----------



## ShurikN (Oct 14, 2019)

I doubt there will be major improvements between Zen2 and Zen3 aside from 7nm EUV... maybe some small tweaking like in the Zen>Zen+ transition.
So why would AMD release a new socket for just one year when DDR5 (and therefore AM5) is most likely slated for 2021.
It makes absolutely no sense... They'll just release X670 and a new B board on AM4 and those'll be the last AM4 parts.
I mean, they could,  if they can make it compatible with Zen4 and DDR5 and Zen 3(DDR4). But what are the likes of that.


----------



## phanbuey (Oct 14, 2019)

ShurikN said:


> I doubt there will be major improvements between Zen2 and Zen3 aside from 7nm EUV... maybe some small tweaking like in the Zen>Zen+ transition.
> So why would AMD release a new socket for just one year when DDR5 (and therefore AM5) is most likely slated for 2021.
> It makes absolutely no sense... They'll just release X670 and a new B board on AM4 and those'll be the last AM4 parts.
> I mean, they could,  if they can make it compatible with Zen4 and DDR5 and Zen 3(DDR4). But what are the likes of that.



If they get a tiny IPC lift (7-8%) but can boost the clockspeeds then they will be on top by a decent margin.  If they can lower latency even more then it will be tough for intel to keep up.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 14, 2019)

cucker tarlson said:


> ah the mythical ipc and the endless argument.who cares about ipc.
> and from what I can see in the tpu review 9600k is not only faster than 3900x in games but in a whole bunch of other typically single thread heavy office tasks.other ones use multi threading at least to some extent so it's a pointless comparison.
> 
> that said,I can see ryzen 4000 deliver really good performance.with 3000 they made good improvements so hopefully they'll continue on the right track.


Everyone And you cared about IPC back in the day and all of us still do ?





ShurikN said:


> I doubt there will be major improvements between Zen2 and Zen3 aside from 7nm EUV... maybe some small tweaking like in the Zen>Zen+ transition.
> So why would AMD release a new socket for just one year when DDR5 (and therefore AM5) is most likely slated for 2021.
> It makes absolutely no sense... They'll just release X670 and a new B board on AM4 and those'll be the last AM4 parts.
> I mean, they could,  if they can make it compatible with Zen4 and DDR5 and Zen 3(DDR4). But what are the likes of that.


They appear to have joined the Ccx's into a mega ccx of 8 ,I think there will be more than a few changes in their for performance and I think smt4 is at least in dark silicon on some possibly working on some.
They're both working on on die cach but Intel can not change their designs as easily as their competition, not just Amd here.


----------



## biffzinker (Oct 14, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> If they get a tiny IPC lift (7-8%) but can boost the clockspeeds then they will be on top by a decent margin.  If they can lower latency even more then it will be tough for intel to keep up.


A new rumor says Zen 3 will have a 10% IPC uplift over Zen 2, and engineering samples have a rumored frequency gain of 100-200 MHz.









						Rumor: Zen 3 sees yet another IPC Significant gain
					

AMD is paving on that processor road hard. The recent Ryzen 3000 series processors have seen a pretty bump in nice instructions per clock (IPC) improvement wise that is, and that is about to happen ag...




					www.guru3d.com


----------



## Hifihedgehog (Oct 14, 2019)

Zareek said:


> Wow... I hope AMD doesn't take this as a signal they can let off the gas now.



Hardly. They may make a superior product for now (I have my eyes set on that tasty 3950X!), but AMD has a mountain of mind share and market share that you cannot believe they have to contend with so you won't see them slowing anytime soon. They are still very much David against Goliath and they only make a tenth of Intel's mega-revenue. We still see potentially hundreds of thousands of loyalists in IT departments across all kinds of industries (school districts, financial institutions, airlines, department stores, factories, shipping services, etc.) dotting the globe who are sticking to Intel because of tradition (It's in our blood and our rich history and it's who we are.), track record (It's battle tested in the field so why change brands now and risk more help desk calls?), and brand image and recognition (Who's AMD? Oh, are they the guys with the hot, slow processors?). You can also thank the clueless Dell, HP, and Lenovo representatives who insist on Intel when people ask for AMD for continue these trains of thought.  We may get it, but most people are generally slow to change, absorbing and adapting to it. They have a ways to go--likely three to five years before they absorb a half of the market if they keep at their current clip--before they can safely let off the gas. Until then, they have to fight Intel's marketing and their own stigma.


----------



## ShurikN (Oct 14, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> A new rumor says Zen 3 will have a 10% IPC uplift over Zen 2, and engineering samples have a rumored frequency gain of 100-200 MHz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im guessing that's 100-200 over Zen2 engineering samples and not production parts.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 14, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Here is AMD's QUOTE:
> 
> 
> That said, ZEN 3 will be on Socket AM4. ZEN 4 may see Socket AM4+. But 99% of the user base that builds there own PCs usually always upgrade there CPUs and Motherboards together. To get to my point, if AMD releases a new socket, that doesn't make AM4 obsolete. Never did in the past and never will in the future, LOL
> ...


It's probably safe to say he will be instrumental in the 7,nm core design from intel , there are rumours of Intel making their next design BIG with far more resources but we'll see, I am eager to see the PC of that generation for deffo.
For both Intel and AMD a big L4/5 cache has to be on the cards and that plus extra internal cache should accelerate IPc gains a bit.


----------



## Agentbb007 (Oct 14, 2019)

Great now it will be easy to convince myself to keep my 9900k until 2022, saving money yay!


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Oct 14, 2019)

I kinda wondered what the desktop was going to look like when their mobile 10nm lineup had a boost clock deficit to 14nm. Sure, it had an IPC uplift, but they just gave it back on frequency. I don’t think 10nm is clocking well at all, and mobile is the only place they can even try to sell it, and they are doing that with a stronger GPU. The GPU might have even been an afterthought considering how long the 10nm delay is.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 14, 2019)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> I kinda wondered what the desktop was going to look like when their mobile 10nm lineup had a boost clock deficit to 14nm. Sure, it had an IPC uplift, but they just gave it back on frequency. I don’t think 10nm is clocking well at all, and mobile is the only place they can even try to sell it, and they are doing that with a stronger GPU. The GPU might have even been an afterthought considering how long the 10nm delay is.


10nm is coming to servers with icelake ,28 core parts initially in 2020, but obviously they're high margin and lower frequency anyway ,just to keep Tdp in check with god knows what to follow , probably not more than two generation's then 7nm?.

Though at this point I am not confident this isn't nonsense since so many of intels timelines have been fantastical products of pr.


----------



## tony359 (Oct 14, 2019)

Tomorrow said:


> Ryzen 4000 on a B350 board? Maybe. A320 - problably not.



As a 320 owner I enjoyed all the people staying that the 320 wouldn't be 3000 compatible because <put a random reason here not backed up by any technical background>. While everything is possible, I think I'll sit back, relax and enjoy!


----------



## Vya Domus (Oct 14, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> 10nm is coming to servers with icelake ,28 core parts initially in 2020, but obviously they're high margin and lower frequency anyway ,just to keep Tdp in check with god knows what to follow , probably not more than two generation's then 7nm?.
> 
> Though at this point I am not confident this isn't nonsense since so many of intels timelines have been fantastical products of pr.



You know what no one takes into consideration ? Yields. I have a feeling they're still horrible hence these mediocre mobile 10nm mobile parts being the only real thing out there at this moment. More importantly what that would imply is volume production of huge monolithic dies for their Xeons could still be a far dream at this point. They're certainly no near what TSMC has right know, you can be sure of that. I doubt AMD can make something huge in volume on their 7nm node right now as well.

Unless they have something akin to AMD's chiplets they are going to need a hell of an asspull to get anything remotely competitive. The more you look into it the bleaker it gets.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 14, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> You know what no one takes into consideration ? Yields. I have a feeling they're still horrible hence these mediocre mobile 10nm mobile parts being the only real thing out there at this moment. More importantly what that would imply is volume production of huge monolithic dies for their Xeons could still be a far dream at this point. They're certainly no near what TSMC has right know, you can be sure of that. I doubt AMD can make something huge in volume on their 7nm node right now as well.
> 
> Unless they have something akin to AMD's chiplets they are going to need a hell of an asspull to get anything remotely competitive. The more you look into it the bleaker it gets.


Hopefully Jim Keller doesn't share trade secrets with Intel, seeing how he was the lead in the of the ZEN micro-architecture design. Anyhow Intel will have a great struggle to keep pace with AMDs current processors and the upcoming ZEN3, ZEN4 and ZEN5 designs.


----------



## ppn (Oct 14, 2019)

A wise decision. Next big thing. 10nm is already obsolete, not being released 2016 when it should. 2019 skip 7nm, so in 2022 is time for 5nm. Which is precisely what 7nmEUV really is. Because it is 5.5 times the density of 14 nm.


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Oct 14, 2019)

AMD lacks frequency IMO. I miss the 5ghz club.....


----------



## newtekie1 (Oct 14, 2019)

"Skylake derived" ha, that's funny.  These cores date back to Sandybridge. Intel's been relying on optimizations and node shrinks to gain performance since then.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Oct 14, 2019)

ppn said:


> A wise decision. Next big thing. 10nm is already obsolete, not being released 2016 when it should. 2019 skip 7nm, so in 2022 is time for 5nm. Which is precisely what 7nmEUV really is. Because it is 5.5 times the density of 14 nm.


AMD could well be on 5,nm GAA FETs by then ,im seeing a two horse race minimum from here on in./10years minimum.


----------



## danbert2000 (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm not surprised that they're just going to try to forget 10nm was even a thing. It was a failed node from the start, and they have thrown millions of dollars at it and it still can't support the clocks that they need to match Coffee Lake. I've said this before, but it's a lot like Haswell to Broadwell. They almost didn't release Broadwell desktop because the clocks were lower and the small IPC bump couldn't make up for it. But the customers were tetchy so they did release it, and it was a sidegrade at best. Eventually they got the node up to speed but at that time they could afford one dud generation, and that's from someone with the "dud" gen chip in my PC. Now with an actual competitor out there, they wouldn't dare put out a processor that they couldn't guarantee to be faster at everything. And without a future for 10 nm with 7 nm coming as the actually usable node, it doesn't even make sense to put effort into 10 nm at this point. They'll sell mobile chips on it as long as they are competitive with AMD, which should be a couple years until AMD finally figures out the idle power and voltage issues and irons out all of the mobility kinks, and they they'll write off the rest of the capital expense loss as the biggest failure in modern business history.

I would be very wary to be an Intel shareholder at this point. This 10 nm boondoggle was a decade-long conspiracy of lies and "technically" meeting public commitments. I don't know it there's any possibility of 7 nm news being taken seriously from Intel until they actually show us the goods. Intel squandered a nearly five year fab advantage and I doubt they'll ever have that chance again. No wonder they snapped up Jim Keller, at this point even their IP is out of date. All that's left is inertia and cash. Let's just hope Intel avoids bankruptcy so AMD doesn't turn into the monster they're in the process of slaying.


----------



## Mephis (Oct 15, 2019)

Intel just denied this rumor to Tom's Hardware, so looks like it wasn't true.









						Intel: Yes, There Will be 10nm Desktop CPUs (Updated)
					

Intel refutes rumors that it is skipping the 10nm process for desktop processors




					www-tomshardware-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## neatfeatguy (Oct 15, 2019)

Mephis said:


> Intel just denied this rumor to Tom's Hardware, so looks like it wasn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We'll believe it when we see it.


----------



## TheGuruStud (Oct 15, 2019)

Mephis said:


> Intel just denied this rumor to Tom's Hardware, so looks like it wasn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They also denied 10nm was dead. A vegetable on life support is functionally dead lol


----------



## Prima.Vera (Oct 15, 2019)

How about DDR5 or PCI-EX 4.0 ? Any news about that? Currently I see less and less reasons to go for an uber expensive Intel platform...


----------



## ShurikN (Oct 15, 2019)

Prima.Vera said:


> How about DDR5 or PCI-EX 4.0 ? Any news about that. Currently I see less and less reasons to go for an uber expensive Intel platform...


Both AMD and Intel plan to intorduce DDR5 in 2021. Servers first of course.


----------



## Mephis (Oct 15, 2019)

TheGuruStud said:


> They also denied 10nm was dead. A vegetable on life support is functionally dead lol



Let's see, 10nm is shipping now, there are more designs and chips on the roadmap for laptops, desktops and server, you are right it is dead. 

I know you are a fanboy, but even through your red colored glasses you should be able to see that 10nm isn't "dead."


----------



## biffzinker (Oct 15, 2019)

Prima.Vera said:


> How about DDR5 or PCI-EX 4.0 ? Any news about that. Currently I see less and less reasons to go for an uber expensive Intel platform...


Seen something about Intel skipping over PCIe 4.0.

Intel's going PCIe 5 starting with the Sapphire Rapids Platform.









						Intel server platform going for Socket LGA4677 with PCIe 5.0 and DDR5 memory
					

While AMD just recently implemented PCIe Gen 4.0 on the latest motherboards and graphics cards, we've already seen some PCIe Gen 5 announcements. As it seems, Intel is already working on some PCIe Ge...




					www.guru3d.com


----------



## Platinum certified Husky (Oct 15, 2019)

14nm+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ when???


----------



## R0H1T (Oct 15, 2019)

Mephis said:


> Let's see, 10nm is shipping now, there are more designs and chips on the* roadmap for laptops, desktops and server*, you are right it is dead.
> 
> I know you are a fanboy, but even through your red colored glasses you should be able to see that *10nm* isn't "dead."


You do know that ICL on 10nm is pretty much a CC of Broadwell launch, talking about CL ~ well I wouldn't even know where to begin 

Yes yes let's not go there, I can show you the _*ever changing*_ roadmaps of Intel with 10nm *projected* release date about 3 (4?) years back? Anyone thinking server chips on 10nm will just fly off the fabs need to have a good hard look at what Intel has achieved on 10nm thus far, real hard look & that's with a *less aggressive* 10nm node than what was originally planned


----------



## notb (Oct 15, 2019)

Super XP said:


> AMD needs to capitalize on this news as much as possible.
> I expect triple digit % gains in CPU market share.


You know this is physically not possible, right?


----------



## JalleR (Oct 15, 2019)

This Starts to smell like P4, with good performance though


----------



## Vayra86 (Oct 15, 2019)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> 10nm is coming to servers with icelake ,28 core parts initially in 2020, but obviously they're high margin and lower frequency anyway ,just to keep Tdp in check with god knows what to follow , probably not more than two generation's then 7nm?.
> 
> Though at this point I am not confident this isn't nonsense since so many of intels timelines have been fantastical products of pr.



Where is the product? 

A page or so back we had lots of posts about AM4 and Zen 3 and how it would or wouldn't happen, but we know for sure it'll happen on *A* socket. With Intel right now, we have not even a remote clue what an Ice Lake enterprise part even *looks *like. All we really know is that they have something that's not entirely shit for a laptop. Well yay, they can make a quad core on 10nm... 

And here's the funniest part. Look at the TDP increase they need to not have an utterly abysmal (Atom comes to mind) baseclock and include turbo beyond 4 Ghz.






In other words, this scales like shit. A many core enterprise part will easily surpass 200W and for what? 2.3 base? teehee

But let's try to find some products then....  @notb  you will love this, too

___
*When can I buy Intel's 10th Gen Core CPUs?*

Intel hasn't provided a timeline for when its 10th Gen Core chips will be available to buy on their own yet. However, we expect the first batch of laptops to be available with these new processors soon.

Intel says it expects around 35 laptop designs from various manufacturers to debut throughout the rest of 2019. We expect to see an influx of new and refreshed laptops sporting these chips in the holiday season.
___




Aha! OK. China. But that 2.3 Ghz part... hmmm

Anything else? I clicked DuckDuckGo 'more results' about 10 times, this XPS product is all I could find...









						Computers, Monitors & Technology Solutions | Dell USA
					

Shop the latest Dell computers & technology solutions. Laptops, desktops, gaming pcs, monitors, workstations & servers. FREE & FAST DELIVERY



					www.dell.com
				







Painful, I say. The best part they can make apparently is the 1.3 Ghz one. We're close to 2020 already. Only 34 laptop models to be released 



notb said:


> Mobile segment means laptops.



You mean laptop, singular not plural? 



Mephis said:


> Let's see, 10nm is shipping now, there are more designs and chips on the roadmap for laptops, desktops and server, you are right it is dead.
> 
> I know you are a fanboy, but even through your red colored glasses you should be able to see that 10nm isn't "dead."



Come again?



notb said:


> You know this is physically not possible, right?



If AMD doubles they'll have 100% growth in share... right?


----------



## 1d10t (Oct 15, 2019)

Hifihedgehog said:


> Hardly. They may make a superior product for now (I have my eyes set on that tasty 3950X!), but AMD has a mountain of mind share and market share that you cannot believe they have to contend with so you won't see them slowing anytime soon. They are still very much David against Goliath and they only make a tenth of Intel's mega-revenue. We still see potentially hundreds of thousands of loyalists in IT departments across all kinds of industries (school districts, financial institutions, airlines, department stores, factories, shipping services, etc.) dotting the globe who are sticking to Intel because of tradition (It's in our blood and our rich history and it's who we are.), track record (It's battle tested in the field so why change brands now and risk more help desk calls?), and brand image and recognition (Who's AMD? Oh, are they the guys with the hot, slow processors?). You can also thank the clueless Dell, HP, and Lenovo representatives who insist on Intel when people ask for AMD for continue these trains of thought.  We may get it, but most people are generally slow to change, absorbing and adapting to it. They have a ways to go--likely three to five years before they absorb a half of the market if they keep at their current clip--before they can safely let off the gas. Until then, they have to fight Intel's marketing and their own stigma.



This statement are right on the heels.For long time, Intel known to be good at building brand awareness, it's hard to get over with it.Their money is well spend toward marketing and "rebate". It's not a secret that OEM and channel partner are giving rebates and offering rewards if you engaging with particular product.
Time will tell, let's see if Fiat Multipla clouded with billions of dollar can run another year


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 15, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> If they get a tiny IPC lift (7-8%) but can boost the clockspeeds then they will be on top by a decent margin.  If they can lower latency even more then it will be tough for intel to keep up.


i'm more in favor of latency being a priority.


----------



## NicklasAPJ (Oct 15, 2019)

Muser99 said:


> But is this the big issue, it is broken!  There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown?  The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?



like any normal person Care about that...


----------



## Super XP (Oct 15, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> AMD lacks frequency IMO. I miss the 5ghz club.....


ZEN3 will see a 200MHz + boost in CPU Frequency.



1d10t said:


> This statement are right on the heels.For long time, Intel known to be good at building brand awareness, it's hard to get over with it.Their money is well spend toward marketing and "rebate". It's not a secret that OEM and channel partner are giving rebates and offering rewards if you engaging with particular product.
> Time will tell, let's see if Fiat Multipla clouded with billions of dollar can run another year


Offering rewards is what got Intel is legal trouble which they were forced to pay AMD Billions in damages. 
Incentives is OK to a certain extent,  but rewards for knocking out the competition is illegal.



Muser99 said:


> But is this the big issue, it is broken!  There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown?  The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?


No fix will mitigate Intel's CPU malware and security issues. It's was a deliberate design technique to squeeze out more performance and years later got caught. 
Intel needs a new design built from the ground up. That's most likely why they hired Jim Keller. I can see something new by 2023 to 2025.


----------



## notb (Oct 15, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> You mean laptop, singular not plural?


"Mobile segment" is singular... whatever the importance of that is.


> If AMD doubles they'll have 100% growth in share... right?


Yes. But they won't. They can't make that many 7nm CPUs.

That's the fundamental background of this Intel-AMD battle.
AMD can make very advanced designs that depend on very limited technology - because they're fine selling 10% of what Intel does.
Intel has to design CPUs that they can make in quantities their partners demand.
That's why the existing 10nm supply goes to fairly low-volume products: mobile multimedia SoCs and Nervana.

Intel could redesign Skylake for TSMC's 7nm, but what's the point? I doubt it'd even saturate demand coming from Dell alone.


Super XP said:


> No fix will mitigate Intel's CPU malware and security issues. It's was a deliberate design technique to squeeze out more performance and years later got caught.
> Intel needs a new design built from the ground up. That's most likely why they hired Jim Keller. I can see something new by 2023 to 2025.


Speculative execution was invented in the 80's and utilized by almost all CPU makers - including AMD that you worship so much.

And yes: it was expected that this technique will make some type of attack possible, but no one managed to exploit it until 2016.
It happened, se we had to sacrifice some of the gains. That's all. Stop whining.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 15, 2019)

notb said:


> "Mobile segment" is singular... whatever the importance of that is.
> 
> Yes. But they won't. They can't make that many 7nm CPUs.
> 
> ...


You must be new around here, seeing how you think I umm warship AMD so much. Interesting to even suggest such a thing.  
Nobody is whining but those that prefer Intel CPU's and Intel themselves.


----------



## notb (Oct 15, 2019)

Super XP said:


> You must be new around here, seeing how you think I umm warship AMD so much. Interesting to even suggest such a thing.


Lets say you don't. Or whatever. I don't care.

You like to talk about speculative execution. Why not spend an evening learning what it is?


----------



## yeeeeman (Oct 15, 2019)

This is just a PR hit from hardwareluxx and unfortunately all respectable media outlets copy pasted it since it generates traffic. Niiiice


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Oct 15, 2019)

Super XP said:


> ZEN3 will see a 200MHz + boost in CPU Frequency.
> 
> 
> Offering rewards is what got Intel is legal trouble which they were forced to pay AMD Billions in damages.
> ...



 will see 200mhz increase?
That would be nice and yield the 10% gain without changing anything except frequency.....


----------



## INSTG8R (Oct 15, 2019)

Needs more +...


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 16, 2019)

TheLostSwede said:


> No, see the source link.
> 
> 
> Sorry, it was a bit of a joke, considering all the issues Intel has had. It's not impossible that they'll fix all the known issues by the time this thing comes out.



Hardware fixes for meltdown have been in place since coffee lake.  Spectre is another matter, on both sides.


----------



## notb (Oct 16, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Hardware fixes for meltdown have been in place since coffee lake.  Spectre is another matter, on both sides.


As visible here:




__





						The Mitigation Impact Difference On AMD Ryzen 9 3900X vs. Intel Core i9 9900K Performance - Phoronix
					






					www.phoronix.com
				



9900K means Meltdown is taken care of in hardware, so it's Spectre vs Spectre.

Phoronix also did a few comparisons of earlier CPUs (also Xeon vs EPYC), where Intel side has both Spectre and Meltdown mitigations (AMD just Spectre).


----------



## hat (Oct 16, 2019)

It's looking grim at Intel. Scrapping the 10nm node (at least on desktop) and jumping to 7nm lends credence to a few inferences that are not so good for Intel. Their 10nm node is still crap, and if they can't make desktop parts with it, that means either they can only crank out low power, low performance (mobile) parts with it, and/or the yields are terrible. The latter, at least, is true if they manage to make higher performing parts for the server market, but not the desktop market. Laptops might be a bigger market then desktops, but plenty of desktops are still being sold, yeah? It would be a mistake to shrug off the desktop market like it's nothing. Now, I realize I'm on an enthusiast forum of sorts, but I can't be the only one in the world who prefers desktops to laptops, or worse, tablets and such.

Of course, we know next to nothing about Intel's 7nm node at this time... who's to say they won't have the same problems with their 7nm node?


----------



## jgraham11 (Oct 16, 2019)

Muser99 said:


> But is this the big issue, it is broken!  There still no full Intel hardware fix for Spectre/Meltdown?  The architecture is still vulnerable? And enabling multi-threading again makes this worse?



Yeah most of the big server companies have come out and said they are disabling Hyper-Threading on all their Intel servers, Google, Microsoft, Amazon... its the same problem on their desktop CPUs...

Don't forget the other ones other than spectre and meltdown: Foreshadow, ZombieLoad, Fallout, RidL

Also remember that most of these issues were known when they released their 7th and 8th Gen Processors... So they released a knowingly broken product.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Oct 16, 2019)

btarunr said:


> In a shocking piece of news



I love some grade-A dry sarcasm!



btarunr said:


> *Update Oct 15th - *Intel has released a statement, denying these claims



I am _shocked_.
/deadpan


----------



## Jorge Nascimento (Oct 16, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I think everyone saw this coming.  AMD Stock, here I come.



I bought 2000 shares of AMD when the price was 1.98 a piece back when they anounced Polaris, when the stock reached a price of 27 dollars i sold them. EZ money, the only tech company that raised 400% in the last decade.



Raendor said:


> Haha, oh wow. And here I was hoping to hold out a little and get 10nm cpu from intel to upgrade for the new console gen from my 6700k. I don’t want to buy into am4 as it’s almost dead too, so it’s very curious to see how hardware releases will play out next year alongside new ps/xbox release.



Your 6700k is already dead since ryzen came out, keep waiting on the side walk while everyone else moves along and evolves past the One brand cpu market.



Raendor said:


> well, it’s highly unlikely zen 3 will release on am4, and even so, it’s not expected to be any significant uplift over zen2. So amd will at best only match intel in gaming.



AMD surpased Intel in everything that gives billions, the server market, and is almost at the same lvl of Intel at gaming with the funny fact of having lower clocks that almost match a vulcano Shintel at 5.0 with a extra chiller on the side.

get your facts straight pls!!


----------



## notb (Oct 17, 2019)

hat said:


> It's looking grim at Intel.


It really doesn't. They're fine in mobile and servers with new arch and 10nm arriving soon.
Mainstream desktops (4-6 cores) can remain on 14nm.

High-end desktop is a weird market. With current margins it isn't very attractive anymore and Intel would love to dump it. If AMD is fine with those margins - let them have it.
But that would only work in an ideal world where people do conscious decisions based on full information. And the world it's not like that.

In reality, high-end desktop is doing most of the PR. These CPUs are covered in reviews and that's what people read and talk about.
Also, everyone knows a PC geek and he will likely have a powerful desktop - and that's the person we turn to for PC advice.

So Intel will try to stay relevant in this game by all means possible - most likely pushing HEDT down to make it more popular. And lowering prices.
Because $1 lost on desktops may mean $3 earned somewhere else.



> Their 10nm node is still crap, and if they can't make desktop parts with it, that means either they can only crank out low power, low performance (mobile) parts with it, and/or the yields are terrible.


Even if their 10nm can't do high frequencies, it's not a big deal for their product profile. Mobile and servers will work fine.
It was a bit different with AMD and Zen/Zen+. AMD focuses on gamers. They were very dependent on TSMC providing chips with higher clocks.


> Laptops might be a bigger market then desktops, but plenty of desktops are still being sold, yeah? It would be a mistake to shrug off the desktop market like it's nothing.


But most desktops are OEM home/business machines. Intel can cover that with 14nm.
You're really thinking about high-end gaming desktops (the stuff forums like this one focus on). And that market is relatively small for Intel.


> Of course, we know next to nothing about Intel's 7nm node at this time... who's to say they won't have the same problems with their 7nm node?


Because they started very early with 10nm. They were alone and they had some ideas that didn't work well. But it's a big investment, so they kept working on it...
With Intel there's always the issue of scale. They don't need a 10nm node that just works in some products. They need a 10nm node that will work for 400 mln - very diversified - chips yearly.
In the meantime TSMC and Samsung caught up and went straight past.

Intel's 7nm is expected to be launched with competing 5nm for Samsung and TSMC. No rushing this time. Let's hope it works. 


Jorge Nascimento said:


> I bought 2000 shares of AMD when the price was 1.98 a piece back when they anounced Polaris, when the stock reached a price of 27 dollars i sold them. EZ money, the only tech company that raised 400% in the last decade.


I'm pretty sure there are other tech companies in the world that moved from dog shit level to actually making some money.
The fact that a huge, mainstream company like AMD moved from $2 in 2015 to $30 in 2019 is not something to be proud of.


----------



## Hardware Geek (Oct 18, 2019)

TheGuruStud said:


> Aka glue quad cores together from mobile and hope they can give them away for free to hold the mass exodus to epyc.
> 
> But they will be in very limited supply, so game over man.


Agreed. Their 10nm has been a disaster. I suspect ASML has orders from Intel for their 7nm. I do love the competition though, we are finally seeing improvement after years of stagnation! I'm not an Intel or an AMD fanboy. I buy what is best for my needs and budget at the time, but I'm pretty sure my next upgrade will be to threadripper.


----------



## John Naylor (Oct 18, 2019)

Why give a hoot about die size, core count or anything else that doesn't necessarily affect application performance ?   All that is relevant is performance in the apps that you wanna run, and core counts, and die size are clearly not determining what serves the needs of 99.5% of PC users.   If the manufacturers is focusing it's marketing on this stuff, they clearly do not want to talk about application performance.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Oct 19, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> Why give a hoot about die size, core count or anything else that doesn't necessarily affect application performance ?   All that is relevant is performance in the apps that you wanna run, and core counts, and die size are clearly not determining what serves the needs of 99.5% of PC users.   If the manufacturers is focusing it's marketing on this stuff, they clearly do not want to talk about application performance.



I also care about power consumption, temperatures, noise levels, performance/$, exploit vulnerabilities, regular driver/firmware/utility updates, and platform longevity.

Price and core counts sure are important, but they are far from everything that matters.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 19, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> will see 200mhz increase?
> That would be nice and yield the 10% gain without changing anything except frequency.....


Agreed. 
Multiple sources state that ZEN 3 could see IPC gains of over 8% and up to 200 MHz faster clock speeds over ZEN2. 
Looking forward to ZEN3, as it stands that may be my next upgrade. At the moment, my ZEN is doing just fine in and out of PC Gaming....


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Oct 19, 2019)

Super XP said:


> Agreed.
> Multiple sources state that ZEN 3 could see IPC gains of over 8% and up to 200 MHz faster clock speeds over ZEN2.
> Looking forward to ZEN3, as it stands that may be my next upgrade. At the moment, my ZEN is doing just fine in and out of PC Gaming....



Im happy with my Zen+ 100%!!
Never do I use all 16 threads.
Never does it get hot unless I bench on it or F@H ect.

And lately, been running a low pwer state which enables me to passively cool the processor. 
Still games even at 3.0ghz 0.9v. 
Still maintains max settings CODBO IV and around 80 fps at 1080p.

Good stuff.


----------



## notb (Oct 19, 2019)

Chrispy_ said:


> I also care about power consumption, temperatures, noise levels, performance/$, exploit vulnerabilities, regular driver/firmware/utility updates, and platform longevity.


Things you've mentioned here are important for clients.

But die size? Core count? IPC?
It's really sad that people care about such things. It shows that the group that likes to mock marketing is just as susceptible as everyone else.


ShrimpBrime said:


> Im happy with my Zen+ 100%!!
> Never do I use all 16 threads.


Why would you be 100% happy if you can't use all threads?


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Oct 19, 2019)

notb said:


> Things you've mentioned here are important for clients.
> 
> But die size? Core count? IPC?
> It's really sad that people care about such things. It shows that the group that likes to mock marketing is just as susceptible as everyone else.
> ...



Because its a vast improvement over previous socket AMD processors. It was/is fairly priced. 
It more than covers my needs. 
Very good effeceincy in lower power states. 
And thats all I can really ask for in an AMD product.

Yep 100% satisfied.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 19, 2019)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Im happy with my Zen+ 100%!!
> Never do I use all 16 threads.
> Never does it get hot unless I bench on it or F@H ect.
> 
> ...


That's Great,
And my 1700x running stock speed is more than enough for my needs. 
Runs cool and quiet.



DeathtoGnomes said:


> *i'm more in favor of latency being a priority.*


. 
Ryzen's would benefit a lot more if they somehow prioritized latency. 
Agreed.


----------



## svan71 (Oct 20, 2019)

"Meteor Lake." This chip will be built on Intel's swanky 7 nm EUV silicon fabrication node",  why exactly should we believe this statement ?


----------



## notb (Oct 20, 2019)

svan71 said:


> "Meteor Lake." This chip will be built on Intel's swanky 7 nm EUV silicon fabrication node",  why exactly should we believe this statement ?


Honestly, nothing is sure about the naming or (sadly) date.
But we know for sure that Intel is buying a lot of 7nm EUV equipment from ASML. So something will be launched. 


ShrimpBrime said:


> Because its a vast improvement over previous socket AMD processors. It was/is fairly priced.


That's not a huge achievement when you think that Ryzen was the first good AMD design since 2007's K10.
And 6 years since the awful Bulldozer.

If you compare Intel CPUs from 2017-2018 and 2011 (not to mention 2007), the architecture is similar, but the performance and efficiency are in 2 different worlds as well.


> It more than covers my needs.
> Very good effeceincy in lower power states.
> And thats all I can really ask for in an AMD product.


No one says it's a bad CPU. But you paid for 8C/16T and you said yourself you never used 16 threads (and you said it like if it was good...?)
Would you be so happy about 2700X benchmark results (Cinebench etc) if they were 10-20% lower? 

So the question I asked was: wasn't this a suboptimal choice? Maybe 2600X would be better for you?


----------



## candle_86 (Oct 20, 2019)

notb said:


> Honestly, nothing is sure about the naming or (sadly) date.
> But we know for sure that Intel is buying a lot of 7nm EUV equipment from ASML. So something will be launched.
> 
> That's not a huge achievement when you think that Ryzen was the first good AMD design since 2007's K10.
> ...



Did you ask folks in 2007 why they bought a dual core if they only need a single? The point is someone with an i7 from 2012 is still fine while an i5 from 2012 is painful today, same reason a core 2 quad lasted longer than a duo, it had room to grow.


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Oct 20, 2019)

notb said:


> Honestly, nothing is sure about the naming or (sadly) date.
> But we know for sure that Intel is buying a lot of 7nm EUV equipment from ASML. So something will be launched.
> 
> That's not a huge achievement when you think that Ryzen was the first good AMD design since 2007's K10.
> ...



Firstly, your thoughts about Ryzen not being a huge achievement have absolutely nothing to do with why I'm 100% satisfied. 
You asked why, I told you and there's really nothing more to it.

Secondly.... Cinebench is NOT the TELL ALL of computing power lol. 
So we are comparing it to Intel? My 2700X unzips much faster than my 8700K. But don't tell anyone I know that bit of information.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 21, 2019)

notb said:


> Honestly, nothing is sure about the naming or (sadly) date.
> But we know for sure that Intel is buying a lot of 7nm EUV equipment from ASML. So something will be launched.
> 
> That's not a huge achievement when you think that Ryzen was the first good AMD design since 2007's K10.
> And 6 years since the awful Bulldozer.


Intel is in a pickle, they are in big trouble. They know they are in big trouble. Especially when AMD is outperforming Intel by 400% per dollar with ZEN 2 EPYC CPUs.

As for Bulldozer, there's history as to why AMD went that route. Bulldozer was OK, Piledriver squeezed out a lot more performance and efficiencies and gave AMD just enough of a push to remain somewhat competitive till its superior ZEN micro- architecture was ready for release. Sure Bulldozer was OK, but I wouldn't call it awful per say.


----------



## seronx (Oct 21, 2019)

AMD is going to get rolled over by Tanner Ridge.  Zen is garbage.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 21, 2019)

seronx said:


> AMD is going to get rolled over by Tanner Ridge.  Zen is garbage.


Great contribution! 

Please keep up the good work.


----------



## Super XP (Oct 21, 2019)

seronx said:


> AMD is going to get rolled over by Tanner Ridge.  Zen is garbage.


That's why ZEN are selling like Hot Cakes. 
That's why Intel hired Jim Keller (Designer of ZEN) because according to you Zen is garbage lmao. 
Competition is great, that's what drives Innovation. By saying Zen is garbage, you are against fair competition and innovation. 

Interesting,



DeathtoGnomes said:


> Great contribution!
> 
> Please keep up the good work.


He's angry because ZEN is very successful. I would think that's a good thing ya know? Lol


----------



## seronx (Oct 21, 2019)

Super XP said:


> That's why ZEN are selling like Hot Cakes.


They aren't.


Super XP said:


> He's angry because ZEN is very successful.


It isn't.

Tremontx(TannerRidge) > Zen
Willowcove(Tigerlake-S) > Zen2/3


----------



## Super XP (Oct 21, 2019)

seronx said:


> They aren't.
> It isn't.
> 
> Tremontx(TannerRidge) > Zen
> Willowcove(Tigerlake-S) > Zen2/3


Facts are facts, 
To each there own I suppose.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Oct 21, 2019)

Super XP said:


> That's why ZEN are selling like Hot Cakes.
> That's why Intel hired Jim Keller (Designer of ZEN) because according to you Zen is garbage lmao.
> Competition is great, that's what drives Innovation. By saying Zen is garbage, you are against fair competition and innovation.
> 
> ...


angry or not, its really about the substance of his post. Why not explain why he thinks Zen is garbage? A Troll cant.


----------



## Keviny Oliveira (Oct 21, 2019)

Shintel and yours falses promises again


----------



## AusWolf (Oct 21, 2019)

I am actually happy for this news. Lack of development from Intel means I can stay with my Kaby Lake i7 longer, unless AMD comes up with something that shakes up the gaming CPU market, which I think is unlikely. Fortunately, in the mainstream segment, per-core performance is far more important than having 8/10/12 cores, which makes the shiny new i9s and such completely irrelevant products for me, even without the hefty price tag (which they have). So instead of wasting money on the core count race, I'll just wait for true innovation and stay happy with my KL i7 until then. Thank you Intel!


----------



## seronx (Oct 22, 2019)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> Why not explain why he thinks Zen is garbage?


Zen is garbage for some reasons:
1. Tactically it failed to compete with Intel cores.  --Skylake is better than Zen, then there is the ultra-wide cores(Willowcove/Goldencove) simply breaking Zen2/Zen3's back.
2. Strategically it fails to compete with ARM cores. --Neoverse has more cores, more IPC, and lower power.
3. It isn't innovative or competitive. --Only innovation has been outside of AMD.  They tried to do SMT2 before and it failed, they tried to SMT2 now and it also failed.
4. It is followed up by a list of failures from the foundries it was built at. -- TSMC is lack of performance, GlobalFoundries is lack of capacity.
5. The architecture is already dead with a new Family of cores replacing it. -- Another ARM core turned into an x86-SMTx core... *sigh* GARBAGE!


----------



## Keviny Oliveira (Oct 23, 2019)

seronx said:


> Zen is garbage for some reasons:
> 1. Tactically it failed to compete with Intel cores.  --Skylake is better than Zen, then there is the ultra-wide cores(Willowcove/Goldencove) simply breaking Zen2/Zen3's back.


lol This not is trust a Ryzen 5 3600 has same performance in multitasking and games of a i7-8700K/i7-9700K and Ryzen 5 3600 consumes less and costs much less too!!!



seronx said:


> 2. Strategically it fails to compete with ARM cores. --Neoverse has more cores, more IPC, and lower power.



lol Zen2 consumes much less than a iCore processor and ARM not competes with processors x86.


seronx said:


> 3. It isn't innovative or competitive. --Only innovation has been outside of AMD.  They tried to do SMT2 before and it failed, they tried to SMT2 now and it also failed.


lol this is only your hater for AMD, like will fail if AMD has not tried yet?


seronx said:


> 4. It is followed up by a list of failures from the foundries it was built at. -- TSMC is lack of performance, GlobalFoundries is lack of capacity.


But worse is Intel than even the ability to manufacture 10nm processors in 2016 it has, it's 2019 and she's given up on 10nm because it knows it's a failure, AMD has at least proved that it will always try to innovate as much as possible. may differ from Intel.



seronx said:


> 5. The architecture is already dead with a new Family of cores replacing it. -- Another ARM core turned into an x86-SMTx core... *sigh* GARBAGE!


lol you use x86_64 instructional processor that was created by AMD not Intel or "ARM", LMAO.


----------



## notb (Oct 27, 2019)

Keviny Oliveira said:


> lol you use x86_64 instructional processor that was created by AMD not Intel or "ARM", LMAO.


By all means, AMD was not the first company to introduce 64-bit processors.
AMD was simply the first to launch x86 64-bit specification for consumer CPUs. This specification became the standard.


----------



## candle_86 (Oct 27, 2019)

seronx said:


> Zen is garbage for some reasons:
> 1. Tactically it failed to compete with Intel cores.  --Skylake is better than Zen, then there is the ultra-wide cores(Willowcove/Goldencove) simply breaking Zen2/Zen3's back.
> 2. Strategically it fails to compete with ARM cores. --Neoverse has more cores, more IPC, and lower power.
> 3. It isn't innovative or competitive. --Only innovation has been outside of AMD.  They tried to do SMT2 before and it failed, they tried to SMT2 now and it also failed.
> ...



1. Clock for clock Zen was faster in slot of things compared to Skylake, the reviews showed that, it lost in games which for 95% of the buying public is irrelevant.

2. Arm and x86 cover two different areas, if arm was a better chip I'm sure don't and Microsoft would be doing the next generation consoles on it, but they aren't because arm can't reach the same performance as x86 without going large and power hungry.

3. Innovation is what infinity fabric actually is, it's even being adopted by Intel.

4. To label tsmc and global foundries failures is the most moronic statement I have ever read. Your statement implys that everyone but samsung and apple that make microchips are clueless.

5. It is far from dead, it's now faster per clock than anything Intel has outside of games. Workstation and server loads are faster on zen2 than on Intel's parts.

Your entire post reminds me of the garbage I used to read when people defended the Pentium D or Pentium 4.



notb said:


> By all means, AMD was not the first company to introduce 64-bit processors.
> AMD was simply the first to launch x86 64-bit specification for consumer CPUs. This specification became the standard.



When it comes to x86 there is a reason they call it AMD64 even on Intel chips, it's because Intel hadn't started on a 64bit x86 chip, they put all of their resources into the failed itanium design.


----------



## notb (Oct 27, 2019)

candle_86 said:


> 2. Arm and x86 cover two different areas, if arm was a better chip I'm sure don't and Microsoft would be doing the next generation consoles on it, but they aren't because arm can't reach the same performance as x86 without going large and power hungry.


ARM and x86 use different instruction sets, so compatibility is a challenge. But behind the interface they are just processors. They perform arithmetic operations.

What you had in mind are results of conscious choices. ARM is mostly made with mobile devices in mind, so the cores are optimized for this scenario.
But it is possible to make "big" ARM CPUs and we'll see them fairly soon
Similarly, it is possible to make "mobile" (small, frugal) x86 CPUs (like Intel Atom lineup).


> 3. Innovation is what infinity fabric actually is, it's even being adopted by Intel.


Adopted? What? 


> Your entire post reminds me of the garbage I used to read when people defended the Pentium D or Pentium 4.


Your entire post is a perfect example of what fanboyism can do with - I assume - fairly normal person. You've been here for a long time, so I bet you used to write a lot more balanced posts about CPUs before Zen came out.
Why so much hate? What's your problem?


> When it comes to x86 there is a reason they call it AMD64 even on Intel chips, it's because Intel hadn't started on a 64bit x86 chip, they put all of their resources into the failed itanium design.


Well I just said that AMD was first with a consumer standard. But that doesn't mean they invented 64-bit 

And Itanium was far from "failed". It worked perfectly fine, but Intel switched to the common standard that already got a lot of traction.
Otherwise we would have multiple instruction standard for x86 and huge compatibility issues.


----------



## candle_86 (Oct 27, 2019)

notb said:


> ARM and x86 use different instruction sets, so compatibility is a challenge. But behind the interface they are just processors. They perform arithmetic operations.
> 
> What you had in mind are results of conscious choices. ARM is mostly made with mobile devices in mind, so the cores are optimized for this scenario.
> But it is possible to make "big" ARM CPUs and we'll see them fairly soon
> ...



Actually the one off balance is you, Intel has stagnated since Sandy bridge much as they did during Pentium 4


----------



## notb (Oct 27, 2019)

candle_86 said:


> Actually the one off balance is you, Intel has stagnated since Sandy bridge much as they did during Pentium 4


In the previous comment I said something about x86 vs ARM (where you were very imprecise) and IF adoption + AMD64 (where you were wrong).

And all you can come up with is "Intel stagnated since Sandy Bridge"...
It seems you aren't really interested in discussing anything.


----------



## candle_86 (Oct 27, 2019)

notb said:


> In the previous comment I said something about x86 vs ARM (where you were very imprecise) and IF adoption + AMD64 (where you were wrong).
> 
> And all you can come up with is "Intel stagnated since Sandy Bridge"...
> It seems you aren't really interested in discussing anything.



No I simply don't waste slot of effort on Intel zombies


----------



## SaLaDiN666 (Nov 7, 2019)

candle_86 said:


> Actually the one off balance is you, Intel has stagnated since Sandy bridge much as they did during Pentium 4



Ivy Bridge delivered up to 15% over Sandy Bridge, average perfomance gain was something about 9-10%.

Haswell delivered up to 8%, average perfomance gain was something around 5%.

Skylake was something similar like Haswell.

So pretty much, you have no clue what you are talking about.


----------



## candle_86 (Nov 7, 2019)

SaLaDiN666 said:


> Ivy Bridge delivered up to 15% over Sandy Bridge, average perfomance gain was something about 9-10%.
> 
> Haswell delivered up to 8%, average perfomance gain was something around 5%.
> 
> ...



You mean similar gains we saw when Intel went willimate to Northwood, then to Prescott, and then to Prescott 2m. Maybe you shoulda been around in 2000-2006.

Seems my point is valid


----------



## SaLaDiN666 (Nov 7, 2019)

candle_86 said:


> You mean similar gains we saw when Intel went willimate to Northwood, then to Prescott, and then to Prescott 2m. Maybe you shoulda been around in 2000-2006.
> 
> Seems my point is valid



Your point is completely invalid because those gains were mainly caused by increased frequency, not by  architectural changes. Pentium 4 was a failure and had it achieved such gains, it would have been  actually faster clock to clock than the AMD counterparts. Not to mention, there was performance regression between the gens you mentioned when compared clock to clock depending on workloads. Prescott was actually often slower than Northwood.

My gains, which I mentioned, are compared clock to clock.


----------



## candle_86 (Nov 7, 2019)

SaLaDiN666 said:


> Your point is completely invalid because those gains were mainly caused by increased frequency, not by  architectural changes. Pentium 4 was a failure and had it achieved such gains, it would have been  actually faster clock to clock than the AMD counterparts. Not to mention, there was performance regression between the gens you mentioned when compared clock to clock depending on workloads. Prescott was actually often slower than Northwood.
> 
> My gains, which I mentioned, are compared clock to clock.



so are mine, Northwood P4 vs Willimate was a 15% improvement, and northwood C was another 8-10% faster making it faster than athlon XP, and PRescott was faster than northwood in SSE aware software, you just wernt around i suppose


----------

