# Can someone help me find how plastic is made? From the source to the end product?



## Space Lynx (Feb 3, 2022)

I have been interested in this topic for many years, when I research it I find pictures of semi-trucks with like tiny little plastic beads in them, but I think that is recycled plastic, I am not interested in that.

I know most plastic is made from oil/coal byrpoduct, ok that is great, but what is the transformation of that into plastic? What does it look like? Is there a picture by picture diagram or a video anyone knows of that shows how it is done at each step of the way? Each time I watch a youtube video on this its always skipping the original source part, like the initial transition (the coal/oil byproduct itself, what does it look like, what is the machine it goes into, what does the machine do to make the plastic)...

I just find this fascinating that it is so hard to find this information (or I just suck at researching). It's such a vital part of our life... and we don't even really know how it is done... I mean we all have a general idea, ok thats great, but seriously how is it done? Pictures and videos or simple layman explanations only please, I don't was to read a grad school thesis on it...

Disclosure:  this is not for any sort of research project or anything that will benefit me, I just am genuinely curious and have been for many years about this.

side note:  i don't want to know about recycled anything. I want to only know about how is plastic made from start to finish.

also, for that matter how is aluminum done? like I want to see a video, of how aluminum is mined, then the trucks that take the aluminum to the factory, how does that ore get turned into to the chip bag or the can I am now drinking from?! Like some documentaries show the basics of the supply chain but they never show you the explicit details... I want to know how it all works, its fascinating - also it may help me answer some of my own questions about sustainability.

@FordGT90Concept @lexluthermiester @Andy Shiekh any input welcome


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## bug (Feb 3, 2022)

I'm not sure you'll find pictures or videos, the process itself is rather short and non-photogenic.

Crude oil is broken down into "fractions". One of the fractions is naphtha. Naphtha plus plus catalysts polymerizes into plastics. That's why plastics are everywhere: besides their desirable properties, they're cheap and damn easy to make.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 3, 2022)

bug said:


> I'm not sure you'll find pictures or videos, the process itself is rather short and non-photogenic.
> 
> Crude oil is broken down into "fractions". One of the fractions is naphtha. Naphtha plus plus catalysts polymerizes into plastics. That's why plastics are everywhere: besides their desirable properties, they're cheap and damn easy to make.



that's a shame no pictures or videos, especially if it really is that simple. and then the plastic is easy to shape and mold just like old style metallurgy using molds (cast iron historically) to mass produce something I guess?


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## bug (Feb 3, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> that's a shame no pictures or videos, especially if it really is that simple. and then the plastic is easy to shape and mold just like old style metallurgy using molds (cast iron historically) to mass produce something I guess?


There are many kinds of plastics each with their own properties.
When we did some polymerization is the lab, it was done in a liquid filled vessel. The thing that came out hardened when it soaked up, iirc. But yes, they're usually ductile when warmed up.


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## Deleted member 202104 (Feb 3, 2022)

A good read on injection molding with pics and vids:









						Injection moulding - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 3, 2022)

bug said:


> I'm not sure you'll find pictures or videos, the process itself is rather short and non-photogenic.
> 
> Crude oil is broken down into "fractions". One of the fractions is naphtha. Naphtha plus plus catalysts polymerizes into plastics. That's why plastics are everywhere: besides their desirable properties, they're cheap and damn easy to make.


This about covers it. The chemistry for different plastics varies depending on the properties you want in the final material, but generally plastic is easily made.


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## Frick (Feb 3, 2022)

For both plastics and aluminium you need to know some chemistry. Wikipedia is a good starting point on both.

Aluminium is quite rare as a raw material, despite it being a very common element and requires electrolyzation (among other things) in order to become aluminium the metal and not bauxite.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 3, 2022)

weekendgeek said:


> A good read on injection molding with pics and vids:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So whoever makes these plastic making machines controls the world?  jk lol  but yes at least finally some pics... hmm interesting.



lexluthermiester said:


> This about covers it. The chemistry for different plastics varies depending on the properties you want in the final material, but generally plastic is easily made.



I'd still like to see the coal/oil processing part, like that really interests me its so hard to find pictures of it, I guess I just find it difficult imagining in my mindseye coal/oil becoming this little ziploc bag my sandwich sits in, lol its so weird to think about



Frick said:


> For both plastics and aluminium you need to know some chemistry. Wikipedia is a good starting point on both.
> 
> Aluminium is quite rare as a raw material, despite it being a very common element and requires electrolyzation (among other things) in order to become aluminium the metal and not bauxite.



I wonder if our grandkids will never know what a 12oz aluminum can is... we might live in a golden age of convenience and not even know it... lol


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## sam_86314 (Feb 3, 2022)

Found this video from an Austrian petrochemical company.

No photos, but it does seem to go into a decent amount of detail on the process. Even talks about other petroleum products.










You might want to look into petrochemistry as a whole, which is what this entire process is called.

Cracking is the main part of the process that actually turns petroleum distillates into the end products, including plastics.









						Cracking (chemistry) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## newtekie1 (Feb 3, 2022)

Nile Red does a good video on making Nylon Plastic on a small scale, going through the chemistry and steps.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 3, 2022)

newtekie1 said:


> Nile Red does a good video on making Nylon Plastic on a small scale, going through the chemistry and steps.



Thanks giving it a watch now with my lunch

one reason I made this topic is because someone on this forum (I forget who) linked me this article below, and it got me thinking about Socrates, and asking the question 'How do we know what we think we know?'  so yeah very interesting stuff here.  









						How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled
					

An NPR and PBS Frontline investigation reveals how the oil and gas industry used the promise of recycling to sell more plastic, even when they knew it would never work on a large scale.




					www.npr.org


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## bug (Feb 3, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> Thanks giving it a watch now with my lunch
> 
> one reason I made this topic is because someone on this forum (I forget who) linked me this article below, and it got me thinking about Socrates, and asking the question 'How do we know what we think we know?'  so yeah very interesting stuff here.
> 
> ...


Honestly, that title screams click bait. I mean, if you're seriously looking to find out whether plastic can be recycled or nor, you're not going to ask big oil.
But since it got you asking questions, I suppose that's the silver lining.


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## DoH! (Feb 3, 2022)




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## Space Lynx (Feb 4, 2022)

DoH! said:


>



something like this is exactly what i was looking for, a dummy's guide to understand it.  

oil is expected to run out in 150 years right?  so we really do live in a golden age of convenience... we fucked in 150 years though 



bug said:


> Honestly, that title screams click bait. I mean, if you're seriously looking to find out whether plastic can be recycled or nor, you're not going to ask big oil.
> But since it got you asking questions, I suppose that's the silver lining.



I am aware of the article title, but I did read all of it, and it is a surprisingly well researched article, sometimes even bad titles can be good reads.


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 4, 2022)

There are many in the industry that believe oil is not derived from rotting bio matter over millions of years. They instead think the planet is generating it from within...interesting concept. Like Sheldon of "The Big Bang Theory" when he is quizzed on Noah's fantastical zoo boat story lol...it just doesnt seem plausible that there could be that much bio matter.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 4, 2022)

rickss69 said:


> There are many in the industry that believe oil is not derived from rotting bio matter over millions of years. They instead think the planet is generating it from within...interesting concept. Like Sheldon of "The Big Bang Theory" when he is quizzed on Noah's fantastical zoo boat story lol...it just doesnt seem plausible that there could be that much bio matter.



even if you are correct, and lets say there is plenty to go around for thousands of years, we def need to figure out a diff way of doing it... i mean you can see the pacific ocean plastic pollution from outer space ffs... plastic has killed so many birds and fish, or made them super unhealthy for us to eat (and we prob eat them without knowing it sometimes too), ecological systems getting destroyed, the ripple effects of that, and so on and so forth.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> oil is expected to run out in 150 years right?


Not completely run out, but become economically unviable.  Bell curves, and all that.



rickss69 said:


> it just doesnt seem plausible that there could be that much bio matter.


I sure as heck don't see why not.  Look around us now.  Keep in mind, geologically ancient times had HIGHER atmospheric density levels than we have now.  ie more energy for many forms of life.

And guess what?  Everything that lives, at some point, it dies.  And sits.  Underground.  A long time.



rickss69 said:


> They instead think the planet is generating it from within...interesting concept.


This however I find pretty fantastical and hard to buy.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 4, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> And guess what?  Everything that lives, at some point, it dies.  And sits.  Underground.  A long time.



yeah that combined with its very hard for the human brain to contemplate 2000 years of history, let alone 100 million, 2 billion, these numbers are just impossible for the human brain to really truly understand. we can try all we want, and even have a general idea of it, but yeah


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2022)

rickss69 said:


> There are many in the industry that believe oil is not derived from rotting bio matter over millions of years. They instead think the planet is generating it from within...interesting concept.


This is true. Oil is not a "fossil fuel". It is generated as a result of geological reactions from magma formations. Earth itself is creating Oil & Natual Gas. In contrast, coal actually is a fossil fuel.



CallandorWoT said:


> its very hard for the human brain to contemplate 2000 years of history, let alone 100 million, 2 billion, these numbers are just impossible for the human brain to really truly understand.


Not at all. Just requires context & understanding. For example I have no problems whatsoever understanding the history of humanity, the Earth & Solar System and even the Universe. I can picture it all clearly and accurately in my mind. Not everyone can. And the ability or inability too is not an indicator of level of intelligence, only the abilities and talents of the individual in question. Not everyone has the same abilities and talents.


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is true. Oil is not a "fossil fuel". It is generated as a result of geological reactions from magma formations. Earth itself is creating Oil & Natual Gas. In contrast, coal actually is a fossil fuel.


I have read that the general reasoning has always been the presence of "bio markers" present in oil. Abiotic contends these markers are simply organisms that feed on oil as it migrates closer to the surface.

If it is true that oil is projected to run out in 47 years then why the hell is there not a huge push towards nuclear power. We can do without a lot of things, but electricity is not one of them. Solar and wind can assist I know, but these are just minor players in my mind...not enough for the long haul so to speak.


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## Shrek (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oil is not a "fossil fuel". It is generated as a result of geological reactions from magma formations. Earth itself is creating Oil & Natual Gas.



Do you have a reference to support this claim?


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## bug (Feb 4, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Do you have a reference to support this claim?


Natural gas is pretty obvious: farmers don't harvest all the beans, some fall down and into the ground.
Oil, I can't explain.


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 4, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> This however I find pretty fantastical and hard to buy.


As fantastical as Noah's zoo boat?


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

rickss69 said:


> As fantastical as Noah's zoo boat?


Actually in the neighborhood, but admitedly it looses to that one.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Do you have a reference to support this claim?








						Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Shrek (Feb 4, 2022)

Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




"Theories explaining the origin of petroleum as abiotic are generally not well accepted by the scientific community, and are rejected by most researchers and scientific theories on the subject."


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## Assimilator (Feb 4, 2022)

Yes, it's called "Google".


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> "Theories explaining the origin of petroleum as abiotic are generally not well accepted by the scientific community, and are rejected by most researchers and scientific theories on the subject."


Interesting choice of quote. My response is as follows:

If oil is a "fossil fuel" how does it get so deep underground in the lower crust and lithosphere, a layer well below the crust? Most of the deposits are in the layers of the crust where life has never existed at any point during Earth's history. So how did it all get down there? Coal is easily explained, it's not very deep, but oil is magnitudes of distance deeper. It didn't seep it's way down there only to be put under immense pressures. No, the only plausible explanation is that oil is a product of the Earth itself. Oil and the natural gas deposits that are found together are not a result of a fossilization process.

EDIT:
For example, the Bertha Rodgers Oil well in Oklahoma is 30,000+ feet deep just to reach the top of the field. No life has ever existed at that layer of the crust. It's a BIG oil field. Oil deposits like that are fairly common.  So unless someone can logically explain how fossilization got down to a layer where life has never and could never exist, we have to accept that oils and petroleum like materials are made by the Earth as a result of magma-carbon deposit reactions.



Assimilator said:


> Yes, it's called "Google".


If it were something easy, I'd agree with you. To be fair, this is not an easy subject to Google. You have to be versed in the subject and know what to look for to find relevant information.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

Assimilator said:


> Yes, it's called "Google".


But google tells me the earth is flat and the covid is caused by 5g jewish space lasers...


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## Steevo (Feb 4, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> So whoever makes these plastic making machines controls the world?  jk lol  but yes at least finally some pics... hmm interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lookup fractional distillation of crude oil to see the general process of how they get the raw materials.
You seem to think this is a one factory operation to make plastics from oil when it’s really a collaborative effort by about 10 different locations.

US oil is drilled, pumped, transported by rail or truck since goddamn hippies don’t understand that pipelines are far better.

Refineries pump the crude through some basic separation then the acceptable parts go into a huge column where they are steam and pressure distilled into their fractional components, those are pumped back onto rail cars and sent to a plastics company.

The plastics company receives raw products from their suppliers, like the refinery, catalysts from other companies, and as stated before mix the refined petroleum base with additives in a catalyst chamber that then extrudes the plastic base product, they might mix in colors, UV stabilizers and then they too package and ship the product to a end use manufacturer.

Look at each step, and then also realize the huge role transporting everything has and the lack of it that would quickly stop the whole process


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## silentbogo (Feb 4, 2022)

Those granules you've seen may be from the raw manufacturing as well. Looks the same.
I grew up in a "bermuda triangle" of the soviet chemical manufacturing. Most plants in and near my hometown are defunct nowadays, though....

It's weird, but the only decently detailed thing I could find, is a very-very old educational video from USSR on polyethylene manufacturing. It's in russian, but you'll get the basics (similar for most plastics, and it hasn't changed that much except computers and precise control).


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## Steevo (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Interesting choice of quote. My response is as follows:
> 
> If oil is a "fossil fuel" how does it get so deep underground in the lower crust and lithosphere, a layer well below the crust? Most of the deposits are in the layers of the crust where life has never existed at any point during Earth's history. So how did it all get down there? Coal is easily explained, it's not very deep, but oil is magnitudes of distance deeper. It didn't seep it's way down there only to be put under immense pressures. No, the only plausible explanation is that oil is a product of the Earth itself. Oil and the natural gas deposits that are found together are not a result of a fossilization process.
> 
> For example, the Bertha Roders Oil well in Oklahoma is 30,000 feet deep. No life has ever existed at that layer of the crust. It's a BIG oil field. Oil deposits are like that are fairly common.  So unless someone can logically explain how fossilization got down to a layer where life has never and could never exist, we have to accept that oils and petroleum like materials are made by the Earth as a result of magma-carbon deposit reactions.



Don't forget our planet is now much cooler than it once was, far less violent with the crust that we know, and remember the ocean is very deep.









						Kerogen - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Most of our oil and natural gas is from far before coal deposits were made. The coal is tropical forests in the hills of Montana under 200 ft of soil and rock left by changes to the oceans and land as the earths rotation and land masses moved many times as just one example. The peat in northern europe would become coal eventually if we left it alone for a few thousand or hundred thousand years. 

Our average earth crust heave per year is 7cm on the vertical and updates to the GPS math form most navigation has been updated since Australia can't sit still and is instead drifting https://theconversation.com/austral...-up-with-a-continent-in-constant-motion-71883


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2022)

Steevo said:


> US oil is drilled, pumped, transported by rail or truck since goddamn hippies don’t understand that pipelines are far better.


Pipelines have serious problems of their own. Transporting by train and truck is actually the safer and more eco-friendly method.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My chief thing I note right away:



> Theories explaining the origin of petroleum as abiotic are generally not well accepted by the scientific community, and are rejected by most researchers and scientific theories on the subject.[1]


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## Steevo (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Pipelines have serious problems of their own. Transporting by train and truck is actually the safer and more eco-friendly method.











						Which Is Safer For Transporting Crude Oil: Rail, Truck, Pipeline Or Boat?
					

News of increased crude oil transportation by rail from Canada has raised this question again. The short answer is: truck worse than train worse than pipeline worse than boat. But it depends on your definition of worse - human deaths, property destruction or environmental impact. You choose.




					www.forbes.com
				




Pipelines are safer as far as human life and CO2 emissions go once they are operational, and the mistakes can be engineered out of them, whereas you can't stop idiots from pulling in front of trains, bearings locking up in extreme cold, rails distorting from the same extreme temperatures. The amount of extra stress transporting oil by rail has put on other industries (ag grain shipments for example) and cost increases, the manufacturing of the rail cars has never been taken into account, none of the studies I have seen take into account eh heating of the rail cars to get them to flow.

A specific pipeline was shut down as some peole were scared of it like they are scared of nuclear but have no issue drinking themselves to death (I live near a few reservations, my wife grew up on one) and because the owner of a rail company paid the presidents party. 









						OpenSecrets
					






					www.opensecrets.org


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> If oil is a "fossil fuel" how does it get so deep underground in the lower crust and lithosphere, a layer well below the crust?


A metric buttton of time is the generally accepted means.  The whole layer generally mineralized.



Steevo said:


> but have no issue drinking themselves to death


If you think native Americans aren't keenly aware of the havoc alcohol has caused their people due to a genetic tendency towards alcoholism, you are very mistaken.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 4, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> My chief thing I note right away:


Seriously? Are you trolling or did you miss a few things? Andy already pointed that out AND I responded...


R-T-B said:


> A metric buttton of time is the generally accepted means.  The whole layer generally mineralized.


Again, review the above response.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Pipelines have serious problems of their own. Transporting by train and truck is actually the safer and more eco-friendly method.



i know it will never happen here, but lets hypothetically say we were starting from a clean slate in a new country, no roads exist, nothing but one major port city - i would honestly try to build a single integrated hyperloop system for the entire country, and when that was done, upgrade the port city as well, no roads, no trains, etc:

plastic is actually a key reason why, as plastic encompasses all of the hyperloop, meaning maintenance from wind/erosion/rust... massive increase in longevity of the magnets and mechanical parts, etc.


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## silentbogo (Feb 4, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> i know it will never happen here, but lets hypothetically say we were starting from a clean slate


The reason it's not gonna work is not because of "big oil" or existing infrastructure, or yet another global conspiracy. It's a simple matter of cost, efficiency, maintenance, and ease of operation.
This horse has been beaten to death a million times by transportation enthusiasts, experts and "experts". You can't have a public transportation inside a tube that has to be pressurized and de-pressurized on every stop. And you can't have public transportation that only works in express-mode(that's what we have planes for).
Sorry for sarcasm and OT, but only in America you guys think of new and revolutionary ways to improve public transportation, when your existing systems are barely used and at all-time low.
I spent some time stateside(many-many moons ago), and I remember 'till this day how I took my first bus ride... I was going to work and at the time I had no ride and my bicycle was broken. Walking takes about 40mins, but I figured - whattahell, let's try that yankee bus for a change. Looked up schedule on the internet. A bus goes nearby once an hour, the next one is in 20 min. Gotta take 2 transfers on the way with a huge detour on the final stage. According to website it should take around 50min, so just a tad over an hour to get from point A to point B. It was slower than walking, but I took a chance since I still had enough time and really didn't feel like walking...
So, 2 hours later I finally made it to work, because the first bus was 15 minutes late, and I missed both of my transfers.   
One of my co-workers used to take a bus to lightrail to another bus every day... Which was even worse... She used to get up at 5AM in order to make it to work by 8:30-ish.

So called Hyperloop is a novelty toy. It's only feasible as a small-scale publicity project, kinda like that AirTrain at JFK, only less useful.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Seriously? Are you trolling or did you miss a few things? Andy already pointed that out AND I responded...


I missed a page, yes.


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## Steevo (Feb 4, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> A metric buttton of time is the generally accepted means.  The whole layer generally mineralized.
> 
> 
> If you think native Americans aren't keenly aware of the havoc alcohol has caused their people due to a genetic tendency towards alcoholism, you are very mistaken.


I’m aware some of them are taking steps, but considering I employ 30 of them and am friends with many more…. A good many have problems that is rooted in their culture, the ones who don’t have the issues are treated poorly and called  “white” as an insult.

I’m very aware of the alcohol and drug issues on the reservation.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

Steevo said:


> I’m aware some of them are taking steps, but considering I employ 30 of them and am friends with many more…. A good many have problems that is rooted in their culture, the ones who don’t have the issues are treated poorly and called  “white” as an insult.


Even the ones who are addicted are aware the alcohol is bad, was my point.



> I’m very aware of the alcohol and drug issues on the reservation.



As am I.  Pretty sure not the same reservation though, YMMV to a degree.


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## bug (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Interesting choice of quote. My response is as follows:
> 
> If oil is a "fossil fuel" how does it get so deep underground in the lower crust and lithosphere, a layer well below the crust? Most of the deposits are in the layers of the crust where life has never existed at any point during Earth's history. So how did it all get down there? Coal is easily explained, it's not very deep, but oil is magnitudes of distance deeper. It didn't seep it's way down there only to be put under immense pressures. No, the only plausible explanation is that oil is a product of the Earth itself. Oil and the natural gas deposits that are found together are not a result of a fossilization process.
> 
> ...


Actually, I believe that's quite easy to explain seeing how the tectonic plates are constantly going one under another.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2022)

bug said:


> Actually, I believe that's quite easy to explain seeing how the tectonic plates are constantly going one under another.


Subduction is a helluva force.


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## kapone32 (Feb 4, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Abiogenic petroleum origin - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I guess Mars and Venus are awash with Oceans of oil then?


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## Steevo (Feb 4, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Even the ones who are addicted are aware the alcohol is bad, was my point.



Some are, some have almost a frat boy attitude towards it. A small town close by has a regular bunch of drunks passed out by a park most are too afraid to use due to their continued presence. A friend had quads, a truck and guns stolen and was almost killed following them waiting for police to show up, since it was on the res he got back a wrecked truck and was told not to pursue it or they might come back and burn down his house with his family inside. It’s happened before and will continue to happen.

I had to fire a few people for showing up drunk or hungover. I encouraged them to get clean.



kapone32 said:


> So I guess Mars and Venus are awash with Oceans of oil then?


Methane which given the right temp and pressure could become longer chain hydrocarbons.


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## kapone32 (Feb 4, 2022)

Steevo said:


> Methane which given the right temp and pressure could become longer chain hydrocarbons.


So Titan is the goal then?


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

Steevo said:


> Methane which given the right temp and pressure could become longer chain hydrocarbons.


If you buy into this at all which I frankly don't.

I'm not even entirely sure non atmospheric large bodies of methanes exist on those bodies.  There's been circumstantial evidence for the presence of small amounts of ground level methane on Mars, but thats really it.

I could be wrong of course.  That is why science is great.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> If you buy into this at all which I frankly don't.
> 
> I'm not even entirely sure non atmospheric large bodies of methanes exist on those bodies.  There's been circumstantial evidence for the presence of small amounts of ground level methane on Mars, but thats really it.
> 
> I could be wrong of course.  That is why science is great.



It does seem logical that Mars might have oil, its very clear it used to have rivers, etc. So it is possible hundreds of millions of years it did have life, and there is a lot of oil buried very deep... I don't know.

If we could access oil and water on Mars and live in domes, I suppose it would be possible to be a two planet species.

I still say Elon has the wrong of it though, well maybe he doesn't, he is advancing his robots fast... cause it makes more sense to send robots to do work even if they are remote controlled...


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> If we could access oil and water on Mars and live in domes, I suppose it would be possible to be a two planet species.


Certainly possible, but one colony could not survive without the other.  Mars would very much depend on earth.


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## Shrek (Feb 5, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> If we could access oil and water on Mars and live in domes, I suppose it would be possible to be a two planet species.



What would you do with the oil? No oxygen in the atmosphere to burn it.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 5, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> What would you do with the oil? No oxygen in the atmosphere to burn it.



nuclear power plants need lots of cooling right? well outer space is super cold, maybe there could be a nuclear power plant for the energy, then that power could make factories that make the plastics from the oil and that energy could separate the oxygen from the water... from what I remember we do know there is ice on Mars, didn't they announce that a few years ago? I'd bet money there is a lot more somewhere deeper you go


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## plastiscɧ (Feb 5, 2022)

should we ever (want to, should) set our feet on another planet, we will have to use and, above all, master purely renewable forms of energy by then.
i read here a lot about finite fossil fuels like oil and gases in various forms. but that will not happen. finite is and remains finite.
in the EU, research has been going on for decades on a different approach:

_*CORE fusion*_* EU*


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## kapone32 (Feb 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> If you buy into this at all which I frankly don't.


Titan has oceans of Methane in the form of lakes. Of course there is nowhere on Earth that compares to


R-T-B said:


> A metric buttton of time is the generally accepted means.  The whole layer generally mineralized.
> 
> 
> If you think native Americans aren't keenly aware of the havoc alcohol has caused their people due to a genetic tendency towards alcoholism, you are very mistaken.


As if the Europeans "trading" them did not know what they were doing. 

It is actually not that difficult. There is a province in Canada called Saskatchewan that produces a product called Potash. It is a highly prized fertilizer. One interesting fact about that place is when the Millions of Buffalo ran up and down North America that place was where they rutted and would raise their young (spend 3 months dormant) How much dung trampled over millenia could there be? Most islands of the Pacific were scraped for the poop of sea birds (Guano). Nothing is outside of it. The very hardware we love to use on these forums comes from Mother Earth but nothing of value is easy to come by. 

It is obvious that Coal is the forests and oil is the remains of the lifeforms that have been on this Earth before. I guess we should call our engines Dinosaur power. Of course there will be people who may want to deny it but it is true. When you are letting your car warm up so your butt won't be cold you are contributing to our malaise. We let our conceit convince us that the quest for convenience was worth it but it seems to be catching up to us. They will continue to do these things though because even though Covid closed most offices. Skip the Dishes, Mcdonalds and many other establishments that use delivery are causing a certain amount of traffic to be on the road at all times so the Game just keeps going. 

The issue I have with all of this is we learned in Grade 7 about the 3 stages of water. Is it part of it that the media focuses on Ocean Levels when water vapour is much more dangerous for us Humans. I know there will be those that don't want to believe. I promise, a weather event starting in Florida and dumping 45 CM of snow across the entire Eastern Seaboard including Toronto and then the tremendous penetration of the Blast of moist air from the Arctic that has put us(North America) in the deep freeze over the last month is not a dream. Toronto is cold like Ottawa today and in so many ways that makes no sense. It was interesting watching the Rolex 24 at Daytona (last weekend) with a track temp of 2 to 5 Celsius for most of the race. So yes in the last 30 years cities in America that never worried about it now have had to add snow plows to their infrastructure. Indeed the Water vapour penetration may be contributing to the tremendous amount of volcanic activity, is Earth trying to regulate itself?

Even living in Toronto I have seen rain like I saw in Louisiana and that only caused people to be swimming out the 2nd floor Windows of the Affluent public Train service. Indeed around the world water vapour is becoming more and more noticeable. An interesting thing about the cold across North America right now is how the humidity level feels. Anyone that smokes or riding public transit knows what I mean. Whether we want to believe it or not we are the purveyors of own doom. The most unfortunate thing in all of this is the same Greed co-efficient is the root of all of our problems. Don't worry about Earth though. Chernobyl is a Garden of Eden (after Adam got booted) in Europe. The Great Barrier Reef has for some reason (in some places) begun to regenerate. The best story I have read about Mother earth lately was that 2 female California condors (The face of the Environmental movement) had chicks without any male influence.  

There was an experiment they did around 20 years ago where I live. They would direct the human refuse from the sewer system and pump it into trucks that would distribute it to farms across Southern Ontario. Indeed in the grocery store you suddenly saw carrots the size of turnips and strawberries the size of plums. That is the energy that powers our combustion engines too. That has nothing to do with processes we cannot even pretend to understand about the inner workings of Earth.



CallandorWoT said:


> nuclear power plants need lots of cooling right? well outer space is super cold, maybe there could be a nuclear power plant for the energy, then that power could make factories that make the plastics from the oil and that energy could separate the oxygen from the water... from what I remember we do know there is ice on Mars, didn't they announce that a few years ago? I'd bet money there is a lot more somewhere deeper you go


And what would you do with the waste? Send it to the Sun? The proposition of Mars as real as it seems in Media is fiction. We have to survive what Earth has in store for us first anyway.


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Titan has oceans of Methane in the form of lakes. Of course there is nowhere on Earth that compares to


I meant the whole argument.  Which seems to be that some process converts Methane to oil, and furthermore that Mars (amongst other worlds) may have some significant amount of methane.  Mars at least is very questionable.



kapone32 said:


> As if the Europeans "trading" them did not know what they were doing.


They did.


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## Shrek (Feb 5, 2022)

Earth has vast reserves of methane that are unfortunately starting to release themselves.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 5, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Earth has vast reserves of methane that are unfortunately starting to release themselves.



new article I just read yesterday









						A satellite finds massive methane leaks from gas pipelines
					

A satellite has detected massive leaks of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, from natural gas plants and pipelines. Most of these releases are deliberate, resulting from sloppy pipeline repairs.




					www.npr.org


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> I guess we should call our engines Dinosaur power. Of course there will be people who may want to deny it but it is true


Technically no.  Dinosaurs are still fossilized, not oil.  What you are burning is far earlier than even the dinos.

But that doesn't change the fact that everyone knows Dinosaur Chicken Nuggets are made of real dinosaur.


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## kapone32 (Feb 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Technically no.  Dinosaurs are still fossilized, not oil.  What you are burning is far earlier.


Just because we are digging up some that were burned alive when the Asteroid that destroyed them means nothing for how long dinosaurs roamed the Earth. We see the same thing In Pompeii. Did no one live there before the Volcano destroyed them?


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 5, 2022)

If one is to believe that oil is mostly derived from bio you have to agree that it would most certainly be almost completely derived from plankton. That is a tall hurdle for me...please spare us the dead dinosaur theory lol. Remember these?


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Just because we are digging up some that were burned alive when the Asteroid that destroyed them means nothing for how long dinosaurs roamed the Earth. We see the same thing In Pompeii. Did no one live there before the Volcano destroyed them?


It's pretty general knowledge Dinosaurs are not what composes our oil.  Seriously.  First result on googling the question:









						Sorry, folks, oil does not come from dinosaurs
					

Petroleum is made from aquatic phytoplankton and zooplankton, and because petroleum is created by biomass, plastic also is a form of biomass.




					www.plasticstoday.com
				






> Petroleum, natural gas and coal come from biomass, primarily from plankton and decaying marine organisms, and “single-celled bacteria” that “evolved in the Earth’s oceans about three billion years ago.” Over millions of years, layers of sediment built up, along with plants (plankton and algae) and bacteria. Heat and pressure began to rise. The degree of heat and the amount of pressure, along with the type of biomass, determine if the material becomes petroleum or natural gas.



Furthermore not all we dig up were killed in the impact event.  Probably not even the majority.

I sort of feel like this meme is relevant here, from a group I frequent:


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I missed a page, yes.


Fair enough.



bug said:


> Actually, I believe that's quite easy to explain seeing how the tectonic plates are constantly going one under another.


Ok, explain Oklahoma, Texas, the Dakota's, Alaska, Canada, Central and eastern Russia and all of the other deep layer oil fields that are nowhere near subduction zones have not been for billions of years.

The Abiogenic Petroleum theory is the only postulation that meets merit. Even though the process is not fully understood, it is the only theory that fits the facts. The "Fossil Fuel" theory does NOT explain known fact, for simple reasons and the biggest being that life has not, can not and will never exist at those depths and pressures in enough concentrations and volume to create the amounts of oil we find and continue to discover.



Andy Shiekh said:


> What would you do with the oil? No oxygen in the atmosphere to burn it.


To make plastics you only need a heat source, atmospheric oxygen is not required.



R-T-B said:


> It's pretty general knowledge Dinosaurs are not what composes our oil. Seriously. First result on googling the question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another deeply flawed theory, pun intended.


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## kapone32 (Feb 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> It's pretty general knowledge Dinosaurs are not what composes our oil.  Seriously.  First result on googling the question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed calling Dinosaurs alone may not be right but it still does not take away form the fact that Oil is the remains of Sentient Organic matter.



lexluthermiester said:


> Ok, explain Oklahoma, Texas, the Dakota's, Alaska, Canada, Central and eastern Russia and all of the other deep layer oil fields that are nowhere near subduction zones have not been for billions of years.
> 
> The Abiogenic Petroleum theory is the only postulation that meets merit. Even though the process is not fully understood, it is the only theory that fits the facts. The "Fossil Fuel" theory does NOT explain known fact, for simple reasons and the biggest being that life has not, can not and will never exist at those depths and pressures in enough concentrations and volume to create the amounts of oil we find and continue to discover.


We have no idea how Green this planet has been and how much life has abounded here. Have you ever thought about what 1,000,000 Buffalo would look like? Was not where you are talking about tropical forests at one point?


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> So I guess Mars and Venus are awash with Oceans of oil then?


Quite possibly.


kapone32 said:


> We have no idea how Green this planet has been and how much life has abounded here.


Yes we do. In fact we have a LOT of information about how much and how long life has been here.


kapone32 said:


> Have you ever thought about what 1,000,000 Buffalo would look like?


Sure. How would they get 30,000+ feet underground?


kapone32 said:


> Was not where you are talking about tropical forests at one point?


Nope, I never mentioned tropical forests.


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 5, 2022)

Come on people...sediments are needed if you want to explain bio and the only viable place for the magnitude we are speaking of is the ocean floors. Like I said before, that's a crap load of freakin plankton.

I have no doubt the truth about it will be revealed in the future. Sadly, none of us here will be alive to tell the others "I told ya so" lol!


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2022)

rickss69 said:


> and the only viable place for the magnitude we are speaking of is the ocean floors


Except the oil fields are not on the ocean floors, nor anywhere near the surface of the oceans floors. Nor would it explain the vast oil fields found in areas that have never been in contact with the oceans in any point in Earths history.


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 5, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Except the oil fields are not on the oceans floors, nor anywhere near the surface of the oceans floors. Nor would it explain the vast oil fields found in areas that have never been in contact with the oceans in any point in Earths history.


Yeah, kind of my point. They are drilling at incredible depths in oceans as we speak. Just seems to me that to explain the bio theory one has to also endorse Noah's fantastical zoo boat.


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Sure. How would they get 30,000+ feet underground?


A long, long time.



rickss69 said:


> Like I said before, that's a crap load of freakin plankton.


Which is what is believed to be the originator that composes oil (more or less, small organic life is the point, see my link above).

You both seem to be having a difficult time with the idea of geologic layering.  What is now crust, is most likely fossilized matter from past topsoil.  This planet is one giant life sandwhich.



lexluthermiester said:


> Another deeply flawed theory, pun intended.


You seem to like challenging mainstream science here but with all due respect I've yet to see either of you effectively refute any of it.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> A long, long time.


Never going to happen. Ever. That is NOT how plate movement works. Biomatter does not and will never "sink" to the depths we find oil fields. Full frakking stop(another pun intended).


R-T-B said:


> but with all due respect I've yet to see either of you effectively refute any of it.


That is because you have failed to pay a attention or you failed to understand context. Either way, this is on you. The evidence is out there to find if you really want to understand the subject matter.


R-T-B said:


> You seem to like challenging mainstream science here


I challenge anything that has no merit or flies in the face of known fact & reason. I couldn't care less about what is, or is not, mainstream. Only care about factual and reasonable information.


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## silentbogo (Feb 5, 2022)

Oh, man. We went from plastic to near-flat-earth conspiracies real quick  
Sorry for sarcasm and further fueling the OT... Just couldn't help myself 



lexluthermiester said:


> Ok, explain Oklahoma, Texas, the Dakota's, Alaska, Canada, Central and eastern Russia and all of the other deep layer oil fields that are nowhere near subduction zones have not been for billions of years.


Apparently they were, otherwise there wouldn't be any oil there )))








						Western Interior Seaway - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Bazhenov Formation - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






lexluthermiester said:


> I challenge anything that has no merit or flies in the face of known fact & reason.


Well, at least you should've done your due-diligence back in high school. I suspect geology isn't a big part of geography course stateside, but I'm pretty sure it's at least mentioned in the curriculum


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2022)

silentbogo said:


> Well, at least you should've done your due-diligence back in high school.


Yeah, University as well, not to mention undergrad and grad studies... but whatever.


silentbogo said:


> Apparently they were, otherwise there wouldn't be any oil there )))
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Context is important and you've missed some... 


silentbogo said:


> I suspect geology isn't a big part of geography course stateside, but I'm pretty sure it's at least mentioned in the curriculum


Was that you trying to be clever? It wasn't.


silentbogo said:


> Sorry


Yup, true. Don't try too hard.


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## xrobwx71 (Feb 5, 2022)

This has a lot of detail.








						How Is Plastic Made? A Simple Step-By-Step Explanation
					

Synthetic plastics are derived from crude oil, natural gas or coal. Whilst biobased plastics come from renewable products such as carboydrates, fats &...




					www.bpf.co.uk


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 5, 2022)

It wasnt that long ago that the flat earth theory was accepted and those that challenged it were ridiculed...knowledge and time progresses.


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## bug (Feb 5, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Ok, *explain* Oklahoma, Texas, the Dakota's, Alaska, Canada, Central and eastern Russia and all of the other deep layer oil fields that are nowhere near subduction zones have not been for billions of years.
> 
> The Abiogenic Petroleum *theory* is the only postulation that meets merit. Even though the process is not fully understood, it is the only theory that fits the facts. The "Fossil Fuel" theory does NOT explain known fact, for simple reasons and the biggest being that life has not, can not and will never exist at those depths and pressures in enough concentrations and volume to create the amounts of oil we find and continue to discover.


Oh, no, it doesn't work like that.
That thing is not a theory, it's hypothesis (huge difference). As such, the burden of proof lies on its proponents, not me.



rickss69 said:


> It wasnt that long ago that the flat earth theory was accepted and those that challenged it were ridiculed...knowledge and time progresses.


And that's quite interesting as well. The flat earth theory is wrong, we know that now.
But if you lived in the old world, where you wouldn't travel thousands of miles in a matter of hours or have a need to put things in orbit, the flat earth was a pretty good approximation for almost anything you needed to do.

If you have a background in engineering, you'll know many formulae we use are actually simplifications we use, because, within some boundaries, they yield results close enough to the real ones. like Newtonian mechanics that work perfectly fine when you don't move faster than the speed of sound. Flat earth of the old is just such an approximation, to me.


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## Jacky_BEL (Feb 5, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> Thanks giving it a watch now with my lunch
> 
> one reason I made this topic is because someone on this forum (I forget who) linked me this article below, and it got me thinking about Socrates, and asking the question 'How do we know what we think we know?'  so yeah very interesting stuff here.
> 
> ...


Chemcycling is now starting to catch on.

Chemical plants will be recycling materials that can not be mechanically recycled, by use of a thermochemical process called pyrolysis, to transform plastic waste into secondary raw material which can be further used in making new products.


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That is because you have failed to pay a attention or you failed to understand context.


And aparently, all of mainstream science has too?



silentbogo said:


> Well, at least you should've done your due-diligence back in high school. I suspect geology isn't a big part of geography course stateside, but I'm pretty sure it's at least mentioned in the curriculum


It was in mine, but ymmv.



lexluthermiester said:


> Context is important and you've missed some...


I love this.  Please, name it.


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## Steevo (Feb 5, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Except the oil fields are not on the ocean floors, nor anywhere near the surface of the oceans floors. Nor would it explain the vast oil fields found in areas that have never been in contact with the oceans in any point in Earths history.



Except the oceans and land have traded places more times than we can count. I live on a hill a thousand feet above Billings and the oceanic fossils in the layered sediment stone is proof for me that this whole area was under water at one time. It was tropical based off the coal that’s less than 200 miles away.

You seem to think in terms of thousands of years instead of millions.


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## R-T-B (Feb 5, 2022)

bug said:


> you have a background in engineering, you'll know many formulae we use are actually simplifications we use, because, within some boundaries, they yield results close enough to the real ones.


Yep.  Like how 15 digits of pi is good enough to calculate a radius out to the edge of the milky way galaxy...  so NASA don't bother with more.


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## kapone32 (Feb 5, 2022)

rickss69 said:


> It wasnt that long ago that the flat earth theory was accepted and those that challenged it were ridiculed...knowledge and time progresses.


Flat Earth? Really? Before COVID came I would have challenged you to make note of the the position of the Constellation of Orion in the night sky. Then fly to Barbados or Curacao on the same day (this time of year) and make note of the position of Orion. You will notice that it is much closer to 90 degrees than the 45 to 60 we get in the Northern Hemisphere.



Steevo said:


> Except the oceans and land have traded places more times than we can count. I live on a hill a thousand feet above Billings and the oceanic fossils in the layered sediment stone is proof for me that this whole area was under water at one time. It was tropical based off the coal that’s less than 200 miles away.
> 
> You seem to think in terms of thousands of years instead of millions.


The entire Island of Barbados was once the Ocean floor.


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## Deleted member 74752 (Feb 5, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> Flat Earth? Really? Before COVID came I would have challenged you to make note of the the position of the Constellation of Orion in the night sky. Then fly to Barbados or Curacao on the same day (this time of year) and make note of the position of Orion. You will notice that it is much closer to 90 degrees than the 45 to 60 we get in the Northern Hemisphere.


Did you actually construe that I was a flat earth believer? Lol! The percentage of water covering the planet is roughly 75% and I suspect it has always been around that amount. Sure, land masses come and go, but in totality at any given point in time I would expect there to be that much coverage...with the exception of the time period of Noah's fantastical zoo boat voyage.


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## lexluthermiester (Feb 5, 2022)

bug said:


> As such, the burden of proof lies on its proponents, not me.


Nonsense. When standing theory does not meet with scrutiny, those that support the theory are required to explain why the theory still makes sense and has merit. So either explain how biomatter gets 30,000+ feet underground or concede that you might be wrong.

Magma-hyrdocarbon reactions sufficiently explain oil production at such depths.

This goes for all of you.



R-T-B said:


> I love this. Please, name it.


I have already explained in previous posts. Will not be doing so again.


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## kapone32 (Feb 6, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nonsense. When standing theory does not meet with scrutiny, those that support the theory are require to explain why the theory still make sense and has merit. So either explain how biomatter gets 30,000+ feet underground or concede that you might be wrong.
> 
> Magma-hyrdocarbon reactions sufficiently explain oil production at such depths.
> 
> ...


How Old is Earth? How long has it been Organic? How does mass on Earth escape the pull of Gravity? Where does Gravity on Earth come from? Construction in European cities like London can be expensive for the very same reason. You might get even the remains of Roman settlements underneath.As the pressure increases. When my dentist told me that you focus flossing on the bottom because Gravity effects your top row I was blown away.


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