# To network or not to network...  That seems to be the problem....



## phill (May 30, 2022)

I seem to be living in the networking section at the moment, so I thought one more post won't hurt...  Hopefully!!

I'm wondering if someone could enlighten me a little bit as I'm a little confused.  At the moment my home network is mostly on DHCP as its just easier for the moment.  Aside from the home server, and printer I believe, there's nothing else with a static IP address.  Everything is in the Workgroup workgroup as well, so its nothing special or difficult.

But, some of my PCs for some reason, don't see other PC shares that have been setup in under the My Network list.  Everything as I said is setup the same to my knowledge but it seems I must be missing something from certain installs.  So as an example - 

I believe this is taken from one of my Backup PCs






As you can see, there's a few different or missing in fact from the list on the right, but if you put in the UNC path, the share is there and you can access it without any issues at all.   It is just literally not showing in the Network tab..

I've got all the PCs set to private networks, they have the default Windows Firewall settings, the networking discovery on with no passwords just for ease but it seems that I believe I'm missing something but I've no idea what sadly.  What might anyone be able to suggest for anything for me to try with this issue?


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## FreedomEclipse (May 30, 2022)

Ever tried temporarily disabling the firewall on those hidden machines? I know that they can sometimes mess with stuff if not set correctly.

Have you also tried _'dialling in'_ to those hidden PCs via the ip address? - I ask because windows is funny sometimes and i cant see my NAS on my laptop till i manually put in the IP address and the username/password despite connecting to it many times before then will show up in the list - Its a case of letting one pc know that other PCs exist on the network. It sounds weird i know but its what worked for me.


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## eidairaman1 (May 30, 2022)

Homegroups maybe?


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## Mussels (May 30, 2022)

Windows likes to work best with shares for accounts that are logged in with a username and password - automating some steps for shares if they've got the same account and password on both systems.

Are these all using full accounts, online/offline/ with a password?


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## phill (May 30, 2022)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Ever tried temporarily disabling the firewall on those hidden machines? I know that they can sometimes mess with stuff if not set correctly.
> 
> Have you also tried _'dialling in'_ to those hidden PCs via the ip address? - I ask because windows is funny sometimes and i cant see my NAS on my laptop till i manually put in the IP address and the username/password despite connecting to it many times before then will show up in the list - Its a case of letting one pc know that other PCs exist on the network. It sounds weird i know but its what worked for me.


I've not tried disabling the firewall but I can go to each of the shares (UNC or as you say, typing the IP/Hostname in Explorer) to get to the machines without too much effort.  I've got the password protected side of things turned off so I take it that removes the need to have user access or user accounts to get on to the machines.   I don't setup my PCs with online accounts, I don't see the point or the need.  


eidairaman1 said:


> Homegroups maybe?


I didn't know that was a thing since Windows 7 but all currently use Workgroup at the moment.


Mussels said:


> Windows likes to work best with shares for accounts that are logged in with a username and password - automating some steps for shares if they've got the same account and password on both systems.
> 
> Are these all using full accounts, online/offline/ with a password?


Even with the shared folders set to Everyone and read/write seems to bring its problems but I'm struggling to understand why that would even be causing a problem.  It just feels like Windows is up to its usual tricks and what works on one machine, doesn't/won't on another  
Even my Windows Server installs have the issue.  Example they will see my Backup 1 machine but won't see my Backup 2 machine.  Even without any shares, surely they'd still be visable with the discovery ticked etc.


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## eidairaman1 (May 30, 2022)

Are the drives empty?


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## phill (May 30, 2022)

The drives have data on them, some are shared folders inside the C drive..  I really don't get it at all lol


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## Mussels (May 31, 2022)

Can you do the most simple test, and move one PC over to anothers location and use its network cable? You may find an in-between device is segmenting the network (more or less, a router you didnt realise is a router)

Wifi repeaters are a common way people get their home networks screwed up by that, same with homeplug wifi adaptors or using a router as a WAP without disabling it's DHCP (and incorrectly using the WAN port, instead of LAN only)


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## Powindah (May 31, 2022)

The lack of shared folder visibility could be due to Microsoft switching off the SMBv1 protocol, to reduce WannaCry virus infections spreading round your home network. Prior to mid-2017, Server Message Block version 1 was enabled in most versions of Windows and networked home computers in WORKGROUP soon become visible, when they'd sorted out which machine was the master browser. When SMBv1 was disabled, it became more difficult to see other computers on your home LAN.

These days I check the IP address assigned to a machine by DHCP, e.g. 192.168.1.22, then I enter that IP address in the top line in Windows Explorer on a different machine, preceded by double backslash, i.e. \\192.168.1.22. The shared folders on \\192.168.1.22 then become visible on the other machine. Alternatively, you can enter the network name assigned to a machine, e.g. \\Laptop1, \\Desktop2, etc., if you wish to access shares on another PC.

It's not a good idea to enable SMBv1 because this will make your LAN more susceptible to virus attacks.

Hope this works for you too.


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## phill (May 31, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Can you do the most simple test, and move one PC over to anothers location and use its network cable? You may find an in-between device is segmenting the network (more or less, a router you didnt realise is a router)
> 
> Wifi repeaters are a common way people get their home networks screwed up by that, same with homeplug wifi adaptors or using a router as a WAP without disabling it's DHCP (and incorrectly using the WAN port, instead of LAN only)


Just a simple switch is plugged into my router at the moment, the only other device is a Dell server that's plugged into my 10Gb switch for testing.  That doesn't dish out IP addresses so I'm guessing it's going to need a bit of tweaking to get that to work correctly...   No real WiFi in this house but the modem/router itself from the ISP..  I just tend to use mobile data on my phone, no point being unlimited if you don't use it 


Powindah said:


> The lack of shared folder visibility could be due to Microsoft switching off the SMBv1 protocol, to reduce WannaCry virus infections spreading round your home network. Prior to mid-2017, Server Message Block version 1 was enabled in most versions of Windows and networked home computers in WORKGROUP soon become visible, when they'd sorted out which machine was the master browser. When SMBv1 was disabled, it became more difficult to see other computers on your home LAN.
> 
> These days I check the IP address assigned to a machine by DHCP, e.g. 192.168.1.22, then I enter that IP address in the top line in Windows Explorer on a different machine, preceded by double backslash, i.e. \\192.168.1.22. The shared folders on \\192.168.1.22 then become visible on the other machine. Alternatively, you can enter the network name assigned to a machine, e.g. \\Laptop1, \\Desktop2, etc., if you wish to access shares on another PC.
> 
> ...


I'll have to check on which devices I've enabled that setting but if that's the only reason, is there anything else I could try and change to get it working?  It seems really daft to be able to access the damn devices but not see them in the network list.  Sadly I can't log into my Router to see what is connected and what has IPs or what IP which is annoying to say the least.  I really do need to email them to find out what I need to buy to replace the modem/router so I can at least get my damn port forwarding working for my Synology box again...

I'll have to try it but I don't recall what happens if they aren't there but I access them if they stay there or disappear after a reboot.  I'll give that a go and see what happens and report back 

Thanks guys for the help so far


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## Powindah (Jun 1, 2022)

With SMBv1 disabled, other computers on my home LAN sometimes show up in the Network list, but normally remain invisible which is annoying. This matches your experience. Prior to 2017 when SMBv1 was enabled on all my machines, the Network list would display most/all active computers in less than 5 minutes. If you're sure all your machines are virus free, you could enable SMBv1 temporarily to see if Network visiblity improves. To do this, open 'Control Panel', 'Programs and Features', 'Turn Windows features on or off', scroll down to 'SMB 1.0/CIFS File Sharing Support'. Enable all three sub-entries then reboot the computer. Repeat on any other Windows machines. Now try checking the Network list. You should see most/all the WORKGROUP computers and their network shares after a few minutes. As stated before, enabling SMBv1 is risky, because it allows ransomware viruses such as WannaCry to propagate round your network. 

Do not leave SMBv1 permanently enabled after the test if the LAN is connected to the internet. If, as on my TrueNAS backup system, part of your LAN is not connected to the internet, it's reasonably safe to leave SMB enabled. I backup my servers to 800GB LTO4 tape, an inexpensive option these days if you buy second hand.

Since you cannot access your router to check DHCP address assignments or enable port forwarding, try running a network scanner to list all devices on your LAN. For a simple scan I use MiTeC Network Scanner (Czech web site). Run the program, enter a relevant range of IP addresses to search, e.g. 192.168.0.1 to 192.168.0.255, then click 'IP Range Scan' button and wait a few minutes whilst the program scans your LAN for active devices. It should display the IP address of your router (e.g. 192.168.0.1), the IP address of the computer running the scan, plus any other powered on devices in the specified IP range. If you have more than one IP address range (as I do because of NAT), scan the other ranges too.

If you want a more thorough scan, try Nmap, a far more sophisticated program. Download and install 'nmap-7.92-setup.exe' from the .org web site. Run the 'Nmap - Zenmap GUI' program. In the Target field, (left hand side) enter 192.168.0.1/24 (or similar) to scan the range 192.168.0.1 to 192.168.0.255, then click the Start button (right hand side). A huge list of information will slowly appear. This can be confusing, but it contains a wealth of information. When the scan has finished, scroll down the list and make a note of any active IP addresses. Nmap shows the device name, manufacturer, operating system, etc., for each active IP address.

Knowing all active devices on your LAN won't improve visibility in the Network list, but at least you'll know the IP address of each computer. You can then type a machine's IP address into Windows Explorer (preceded by \\), to make the shares for that machine visible. Windows home networking machine visibily was not perfect with SMBv1 enabled, but it's even less friendly without SMBv1.


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## Mussels (Jun 2, 2022)

phill said:


> Just a simple switch is plugged into my router at the moment, the only other device is a Dell server that's plugged into my 10Gb switch for testing.  That doesn't dish out IP addresses so I'm guessing it's going to need a bit of tweaking to get that to work correctly...   No real WiFi in this house but the modem/router itself from the ISP..  I just tend to use mobile data on my phone, no point being unlimited if you don't use it
> 
> I'll have to check on which devices I've enabled that setting but if that's the only reason, is there anything else I could try and change to get it working?  It seems really daft to be able to access the damn devices but not see them in the network list.  Sadly I can't log into my Router to see what is connected and what has IPs or what IP which is annoying to say the least.  I really do need to email them to find out what I need to buy to replace the modem/router so I can at least get my damn port forwarding working for my Synology box again...
> 
> ...


Managed switches can still screw with things, even if they dont have DHCP or give out IP addresses. That's why it's good to try physical relocation, so you can find out if that is happening

I was at a 48 person LAN party a few weeks back, and despite the admins insistence the managed switches did nothing, we found that all four tables were segmented, blocking file transfers and UDP games from working. TCP games and anything using steam? just peachy. I dont think they ever resolved it, but it felt like a subnet issue or user isolation policy and overall it's waving red flags of similarity to your setup. 10Gb switches arent cheap or simple, so the odds on it being managed or having fancy settings is right up there.


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## neatfeatguy (Jun 2, 2022)

I've got my computer and my plex server at home. I can remote into the plex server and I can path to it from from my main computer, but it never shows up under the network section for me. Both computers are on Windows 10, both are under the same account and I've tried disabling the Windows firewall and so on, but my htpc computer never shows up when I look at the network window.

I don't use a switch, only wired devices are my computer and htpc, both are direct into the router. Everything is DHCP.

I blame Windows 10. I never had this issue under Win 7.


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## Mussels (Jun 4, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> I've got my computer and my plex server at home. I can remote into the plex server and I can path to it from from my main computer, but it never shows up under the network section for me. Both computers are on Windows 10, both are under the same account and I've tried disabling the Windows firewall and so on, but my htpc computer never shows up when I look at the network window.
> 
> I don't use a switch, only wired devices are my computer and htpc, both are direct into the router. Everything is DHCP.
> 
> I blame Windows 10. I never had this issue under Win 7.


They both need to be in the same homegroup settings (either using homegroup or user accounts, gotta be the same)
They need to be set to 'private' connections and the workgroup needs to be the same

and then for actually logging in, you need to have matching usernames/passwords on the machines for some situations


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## neatfeatguy (Jun 4, 2022)

Mussels said:


> They both need to be in the same homegroup settings (either using homegroup or user accounts, gotta be the same)
> They need to be set to 'private' connections and the workgroup needs to be the same
> 
> and then for actually logging in, you need to have matching usernames/passwords on the machines for some situations


Same workgroup, set to private and have the same username/password.

MS just basically broke shit and they haven't fixed it on Windows 10. It's weird, every once in a great while I'll see my htpc server showing up on the network, but more often than naught it doesn't. Never had these glitchy issues in Windows 7.


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## Mussels (Jun 5, 2022)

It always frustrates me because my systems always work for file sharing.
Other peoples never seem to, and i can't figure out what the hell they do differently - usually they've ran automated tweak programs to 'fix their security' or 'disable unwanted services' or a shitty antivirus did it for them

One key: *you MUST restart the PC or at least log out and back in*, for these changes to actually activate.

What you need to do is go find 2-3 working systems that can see each other, and check/write down what they have in common here.
Then go find one of the dud systems, and compare them.

You may find you have two (or more) 'working' combinations that's seperated them into groups (one group has password protected on while one has it off, etc)


Getting the highlights from the interwebs:





either be on private network, or disable firewall for public. I have seen systems where third party programs like AV forced the network to public, and it wouldnt stay on private.





computer browser service must be running





I've been on 11 for a while, but i tend to have public sharing disabled, 128 bit on, password protected sharing on (This means that user accounts with no password CANNOT access shares. You need a user name with a password! I use auto-login with a basic account for 99% of my systems)




You might need to add/re-enable samba in add/remove


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## phill (Jun 7, 2022)

Powindah said:


> With SMBv1 disabled, other computers on my home LAN sometimes show up in the Network list, but normally remain invisible which is annoying. This matches your experience. Prior to 2017 when SMBv1 was enabled on all my machines, the Network list would display most/all active computers in less than 5 minutes. If you're sure all your machines are virus free, you could enable SMBv1 temporarily to see if Network visiblity improves. To do this, open 'Control Panel', 'Programs and Features', 'Turn Windows features on or off', scroll down to 'SMB 1.0/CIFS File Sharing Support'. Enable all three sub-entries then reboot the computer. Repeat on any other Windows machines. Now try checking the Network list. You should see most/all the WORKGROUP computers and their network shares after a few minutes. As stated before, enabling SMBv1 is risky, because it allows ransomware viruses such as WannaCry to propagate round your network.
> 
> Do not leave SMBv1 permanently enabled after the test if the LAN is connected to the internet. If, as on my TrueNAS backup system, part of your LAN is not connected to the internet, it's reasonably safe to leave SMB enabled. I backup my servers to 800GB LTO4 tape, an inexpensive option these days if you buy second hand.
> 
> ...





Mussels said:


> Managed switches can still screw with things, even if they dont have DHCP or give out IP addresses. That's why it's good to try physical relocation, so you can find out if that is happening
> 
> I was at a 48 person LAN party a few weeks back, and despite the admins insistence the managed switches did nothing, we found that all four tables were segmented, blocking file transfers and UDP games from working. TCP games and anything using steam? just peachy. I dont think they ever resolved it, but it felt like a subnet issue or user isolation policy and overall it's waving red flags of similarity to your setup. 10Gb switches arent cheap or simple, so the odds on it being managed or having fancy settings is right up there.


Well everyone, apologies for my lack of presence on the forum of late, kinda been hung up with Forza Horizon 2, so I thought as I had a break from it, I needed to put up an update ! 

With all the hassles I was having I decided to try another option and that was to put everything back to basics.   I've found some of the PCs had SMB installed and all 3 options ticked so I literally went around uninstalling it all on each of the PCs.  Since then bar one of my Server 2012 R2 installs, everything is working as expected which is amazing considering....

I'm still not sure what is going on with the 2012 R2 install, the other install I have works fine and you can see that within the network list.  The most frustrating part is down to the fact you can UNC to the device so, \\Name\Share Name and it works just fine, but for whatever damn reason it never shows up properly until you've done that (I believe that's with every restart) I am lost..  I need to go over that again but weather hasn't been great here last few days so no servers been on during the day.    Any suggestions on that one would be very grateful.

The 10Gb switch I have is an unmanaged one, so its not going to do much at all, although I think I am going to have to setup my network differently, so I'm looking into that.  Sadly at the moment not being able to move very smoothly shall we say, makes climbing over desks and trying to plug in cables into network ports etc. isn't going to happen    But I have figured out, I've not got enough network ports in the damn house....   I will be setting up my WCG/FAH/Rosetta PC's on a dummy switch that will share a single 1Gb connection, they really don't need anything more as the network usage for the crunchers are small and won't be transferring big files about either.  Everything with those PCs are saved on the home server out the way anyways 

I need to work out how to get both switches working together so they are both linked to the router from my ISP, so hopefully both will receive an IP address.    I have been toying with the idea of giving devices a static address over giving out dynamic ones.  Another thread I think for another day...

Thank you to all that have helped    Glad that the majority of the issue is now fixed.  I just need to master Server 2012 R2 and I should be golden!!    Some free electric to do that would be a great help!


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## Mussels (Jun 8, 2022)

Being a server OS could one of the services be disabled that normally scans or announces the master server list?


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## phill (Jun 10, 2022)

Mussels said:


> Being a server OS could one of the services be disabled that normally scans or announces the master server list?


I'd have to double check but I think the four services that I found that needed to be on, are on...  I'm sure its something somewhere in the settings cos the other server has the same install, so something I just need to copy and enable...  Its so frustrating its so close   

I just need to organise the home network correctly and I should be up and running. I think a few more 10Gb cards might be needed but otherwise we should be on a winner


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## chrcoluk (Jun 10, 2022)

Whats funny is SMB works great from TrueNAS which is a BSD OS, latency is like a local mount as well, whilst native windows to windows sharing always been a little flaky for me, especially on latency.

Windows firewall turn it off temporarily as a quick fire to see if thats the problem, if it isnt, then check the file sharing options accessible via network and sharing centre.


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