# "Pump-out Effect" Is it real or is it nonsense? Let's discuss...



## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2021)

The subject of "pump-out effect" has been discussed in another thread. We need to bring that discussion here.

I think it's nonsense and isn't something that we users/enthusiast need to worry about, but there is another school of thought. There needs to be testing and experimentation to prove this is a thing. Why? Because until lately it's never been heard of. I personally have never seen an instance of it and I've been working on desktops, laptops and ultra mobile devices since the 1980's.

The below response is in reference to the following;


nguyen said:


> Pretty sure this video has been posted before in this thread but it seems that you were "too experienced" to watch through it





nguyen said:


> Curing time is BS


They were wrong on that one. Please see ArcticSilver5. Curing time is even stated by the maker of it.





						Arctic Silver Incorporated - Arctic Silver 5
					






					www.arcticsilver.com
				





> Important Reminder:
> Due to the unique shape and sizes of the particles in Arctic Silver 5's conductive matrix, it will take a up to 200 hours and several thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity. (This period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink or with a low speed fan on the heatsink.) On systems measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, the measured temperature will often drop 2C to 5C over this "break-in" period. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool to room temperature. Once the break-in is complete, the computer can be left on if desired.


This is a known performance metric industry wide. Steve and Der8uer are smart guys, but they are not Gods, they don't know everything and they sometimes make mistakes. Additionally, when Der8uer was talking about "pump-out-effect" he described 2000 heat cycles. I'm certain that he was talking about load-heat cycles.


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## biffzinker (Jun 6, 2021)

I was having this problem with a 4790K running OCed using Noctua’s NT-H1 compound. The temperatures would start out normal. A couple weeks later the CPU would be throttling. After a repaste temperatures were back to normal. The cycle kept repeating for me.

Edit: The paste would appear squeezed out and there wasn’t nothing really on the IHS. The compound looked like it all was on the outer edge of the heatsink base.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2021)

biffzinker said:


> I was having this problem with a 4790K running OCed using Noctua’s NT-H1 compound. The temperatures would start out normal. A couple weeks later the CPU would be throttling. After a repaste temperatures were back to normal. The cycle kept repeating for me.


Really? I've never seen this before. Is your 4790k delidded and the heatsink plate lapped?


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## biffzinker (Jun 6, 2021)

I don’t have the 4790K anymore. I was using this heatsink. https://www.scytheus.com/aircooler-kotetsu

The 4790K was delidded with liquid metal.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2021)

Interesting. I currently have some NT-H1. Ran some tests with it. Perhaps it's time for some extensive and more extreme testing with it to see if I can replicate this effect...


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## Mussels (Jun 6, 2021)

biffzinker said:


> I don’t have the 4790K anymore. I was using this heatsink. https://www.scytheus.com/aircooler-kotetsu
> 
> The 4790K was delidded with liquid metal.


i had a 4770k with that issue, but the problem was always the paste being shifted by gravity under the IHS - that issue went away when i went to LM (conductonaut) but was a reoccuring problem with regular paste.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 6, 2021)

Mussels said:


> i had a 4770k with that issue, but the problem was always the paste being shifted by gravity under the IHS


That's heat induced TIM bleeding, not the same principle as what "pump-out" is described as.

See the following for how Der8uer describes it;








Time index 8:52


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## biffzinker (Jun 6, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Interesting. I currently have some NT-H1. Ran some tests with it. Perhaps it's time for some extensive and more extreme testing with it to see if I can replicate this effect...


I originally blamed it on the mounting hardware. I was hand tightening the two screws in the crossbar. I wasn’t over tightening the screws.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2021)

Mussels said:


> i had a 4770k with that issue, but the problem was always the paste being shifted by gravity under the IHS - that issue went away when i went to LM (conductonaut) but was a reoccuring problem with regular paste.



you use conductonaut with your 5800x now or no? i'd be to afraid of a single drop slipping out and frying mobo lol


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## nguyen (Jun 6, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> you use conductonaut with your 5800x now or no? i'd be to afraid of a single drop slipping out and frying mobo lol



Yeah I woud be worry about using LM on vertically mounted CPU too, same reason I wouldn't apply LM on laptop since I store the laptop vertically inside a backpack.
For horizontally mounted GPU there is no issue with LM


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## Mussels (Jun 6, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> you use conductonaut with your 5800x now or no? i'd be to afraid of a single drop slipping out and frying mobo lol


i did use it on the 2700x and 3700x, and it DID drip out with how often i changed coolers - i found some on my AX370 mobo near the unused USB 2.0 header, and decided to not use it on any more AM4 mobos


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## mtcn77 (Jun 6, 2021)

He used the wrong terminology. 'Pump out' empties the chamber, but 'caking' spikes up temperatures. If anything, 'Pump out' should lower resistance.

There is no difference between 'curing' during the set in period and in the long term, so it is a misnomer to depict the big picture. You cannot use the same term for two conflicting frames of references.


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## XT785 (Jun 6, 2021)

Hi! Has anybody experienced pump-out effect on laptops using gelid gc extreme thermal paste?


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jun 6, 2021)

I have question about this myself. Thermal paste "degrading" in laptops is a common problem I wonder if it was because of "pump out" or just simply the thermal paste drying out from the high temperarature reducing it thermal contact.

From what I read it seems to affect the more watery and less viscous paste that can spread easily example mx4 or thermal grizzly. Thermal paste that  are viscous and less easily spread like shin-etsu which was the standard that many manucfacturer like Dell and Acer use for example use are not affected much. I guess shin-etsu was used as even with poor application you still can a decent cooling due to its viscousness.


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## ThrashZone (Jun 6, 2021)

biffzinker said:


> I was having this problem with a 4790K running OCed using Noctua’s NT-H1 compound. The temperatures would start out normal. A couple weeks later the CPU would be throttling. After a repaste temperatures were back to normal. The cycle kept repeating for me.
> 
> Edit: The paste would appear squeezed out and there wasn’t nothing really on the IHS. The compound looked like it all was on the outer edge of the heatsink base.


Hi,
Coolers now days aren't flat that if noticed just looking at your links coolers base plate it doesn't look flat either the reflection looks funny
Neither are cpu's so if these two surfaces are off the paste will fill those inconsistencies pretty much what paste is supposed to do

If the cooler and cpu are flat it would be normal for most paste to be on outer edges
Water blocks are designed with bows in them to better mate with cpu tops because cpu's are usually convex like a bowl not sure what a 4790k is like but hedt chips are large and convex my 10900k was nearly flat just a little convex barely noticeable

Took some images a while back of an ek magnitude cold plate bow if this cold plate didn't mate well with a cpu would that be said to be pump out because no paste was in the center ?


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## Falkentyne (Jun 6, 2021)

MIRTAZAPINE said:


> I have question about this myself. Thermal paste "degrading" in laptops is a common problem I wonder if it was because of "pump out" or just simply the thermal paste drying out from the high temperarature reducing it thermal contact.
> 
> From what I read it seems to affect the more watery and less viscous paste that can spread easily example mx4 or thermal grizzly. Thermal paste that  are viscous and less easily spread like shin-etsu which was the standard that many manucfacturer like Dell and Acer use for example use are not affected much. I guess shin-etsu was used as even with poor application you still can a decent cooling due to its viscousness.



It can be both.
Kryonaut has been known to pump out on laptops and lose stability at >80C.  This loss of stability was apparently improved in Kryonaut extreme as well as MX-5 (TFX and SYY-157 also are stable).
This was a major complaint about Kryonaut.  In fact, one of HIDEvolution's system integrators (they are an OEM builder for several laptops) absolutely refuses to use Kryonaut because of temp degradation.
This is also one of the reasons people using delidded LGA CPU's have had bad stability using Kryonaut on the delid instead of Liquid Metal.
Laptops can be very prone to this because the CPU BGA die isn't flat.  It's convex.  The convexity is what causes core temp delta issues (usually, when the cores are 0-8 numbered, often cores 1,3 (on 4C/8T) and in addition, 5 (8C) end up a lot hotter than the others (those cores will always be slightly hotter even on a sanded die and great fitting heatsink).  Combine that with imperfect heatsinks and you have a problem.

I encountered this issue myself with Kryonaut on my MSI GT73VR.  This did NOT happen on my desktop CPUs however.  

MX-4 has been known to turn into soup at >90C on laptops that are thermal throttling.  I still can't find the picture but someone a few weeks ago posted a picture of this.  It was on a GPU though.  Nothing but liquid oils on the GPU Core in a wavy pattern and the actual paste was off to the edges.


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## Shrek (Jun 6, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> The subject of "pump-out effect" has been discussed in another thread. We need to bring that discussion here.
> 
> I think it's nonsense and isn't something that we users/enthusiast need to worry about, but there is another school of thought. There needs to be testing and experimentation to prove this is a thing.


How about this for testing; two blocks of metal separated by thermal grease and the top one with an out of balance wheel to achieve relative motion (pump out is supposed to be due to relative thermal expansion).

There is a certain logic, grease is carried out from the moving interface and caught on the edge when the motion returns.

I suspect that some thermal greases have lower thermal conductivity so that they remain sufficiently gooey to flow back into the crack using surface tension; this is where surfactants may play a role

Seems oleic acid may be a candidate (boiling point 360°C)
How To Make Ferrofluid (popsci.com)

I'm just playing with ideas here


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## unclewebb (Jun 6, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think it's nonsense


I think it is an issue for laptop CPUs that run for hours at 90°C or higher while gaming. Direct die or a heat spreader like desktop CPUs use seems to make a difference. 

Hard to argue with what this video shows. There is virtually no thermal paste left on the heatsink or on the CPU and GPU die where there obviously used to be paste.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> I think it is an issue for laptop CPUs that run for hours at 90°C or higher while gaming. Direct die or a heat spreader like desktop CPUs use seems to make a difference.
> 
> Hard to argue with what this video shows. There is virtually no thermal paste left on the heatsink or on the CPU and GPU die where there obviously used to be paste.



this must be why noctua made the nt-h2


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## unclewebb (Jun 6, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> nt-h2


I have heard from users that NT-H2 works much better long term in the laptop environment. TechPowerUp now uses NT-H2 on their test systems.


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## Shrek (Jun 6, 2021)

NT-H1 is good to 110°C
NT-H1 3.5g || Specifications (noctua.at)

NT-H2 is good to 200°C
NT-H2 3.5g || Specifications (noctua.at)


Even more interesting is they don't bother to list the thermal conductivity; I think this is a reflection that it is not that important.


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## Mussels (Jun 6, 2021)

"good to x" is by whatever metric the maker decided upon

Good to 200C for... a month? a year? Good thermal conductivity?

Even with quality brands like noctua, incomplete information can lead to very wrong assumptions about what the marketed specs mean


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## Fangio1951 (Jun 6, 2021)

I've had my i7-7700 k delided and using Conductonaut LM for about 3+ years, with the mobo mounted vertically, in a Thermaltake Core P5 case and the temps haven't varied = normal - 26-30 C and stress = 52-55 C max.

System is fully water cooled = mobo, GPU and CPU.


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## freeagent (Jun 6, 2021)

I haven't experienced it myself.. but curious if it could be from a lack of mounting pressure? Some guys are afraid to turn screws all the way, or cooler just has a weak mount? My LGMRT on Intel is super tight, but on AM4 I can deal out full titty twisters even after the screws are done turning.. No problem with my new cooler.. she's tight.. Again no pump out though, so it has to be something else.. maybe the formulation of the TIM itself, or some other QC issue somewhere down the line.

I understand thermal expansion cycles, but enough for it to pump out like the name implies leaves me with other questions, mainly on the design of the cooler itself and its mount, or the logic behind the engineering that went into it. I don't know.. I am no engineer.. but had I stayed in school and made better choices who knows lol.


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## delshay (Jun 7, 2021)

They talk about most thermal paste use aluminium powered, but Arctic Silver 5 has real particles of silver, tested in a lab many years ago. Real silver has a higher thermal conductivity than aluminum.

My personal choice when it comes to thermal paste is Arctic Silver 5. I just wish all of today's modern paste can be sent to lab to verify what's in them as some were caught cheating many years ago with what it contains & they thermal conductivity claim.   ...I just know OCZ at that time was one company caught lying what it contains, but there were other company's caught lying too.


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## Falkentyne (Jun 7, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I haven't experienced it myself.. but curious if it could be from a lack of mounting pressure? Some guys are afraid to turn screws all the way, or cooler just has a weak mount? My LGMRT on Intel is super tight, but on AM4 I can deal out full titty twisters even after the screws are done turning.. No problem with my new cooler.. she's tight.. Again no pump out though, so it has to be something else.. maybe the formulation of the TIM itself, or some other QC issue somewhere down the line.
> 
> I understand thermal expansion cycles, but enough for it to pump out like the name implies leaves me with other questions, mainly on the design of the cooler itself and its mount, or the logic behind the engineering that went into it. I don't know.. I am no engineer.. but had I stayed in school and made better choices who knows lol.



It's always due to a lack of mounting pressure OR due to a convex/concave heatsink/CPU/GPU Core (which means un-uniform mounting pressure).  Because if the contact isn't completely level, due to the almighty laws of physics, heat expands, cold contracts, the paste gets shifted around and eventually ends up outside the die.

This is different from paste degradation (separation) where the paste (heat conductive part) ends out outside the die while the die is still covered in silicon oil, which usually only happens with the extreme thermal stresses from direct die applications...I'm not sure if this was an issue with Kryonaut at very high temps (which is why it's only rated to 80C while Kryonaut Extreme isn't), but that was a problem with MX-4.

I don't think people even remember how MX-4 even came into existence.  MX-2 used to be the top dog (dethroning Arctic Silver 5--note that Ceramique was NOT made by "Arctic GMBH (or GBMH whatever that German thing is)" but by "Arctic Silver"), but then they made MX-3 which got horrible reviews because it did worse than MX-2 across the board and was sticky and too liquidy.  That's why it's so hard to even find information about MX-3, that's how bad it was.  So Arctic made MX-4 to fix the flaws in MX-3, but MX-2 actually performed better and seemed more durable!

So now we're back up to MX-5.


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## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

What thermal grease do the Aerospace industry use?


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> Hard to argue with what this video shows. There is virtually no thermal paste left on the heatsink or on the CPU and GPU die where there obviously used to be paste.


It is in fact very easy to argue with what that video shows. This I've seen many times and it's NOT some silly "pump-out effect". It's as simple as the baseplate is nearly perfectly flat and there's no room for much TIM after the heatsink is attached. This is common.


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## biffzinker (Jun 7, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's as simple as the baseplate is nearly perfectly flat and there's no room for much TIM after the heatsink is attached. This is common.


Would it make any difference if the surface had a slight roughness to it? Something for the paste to grab hold of.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2021)

biffzinker said:


> Would it make any difference if the surface had a slight roughness to it? Something for the paste to grab hold of.


Certainly. I think there needs to be some experimentation to flesh out what is really going on. The material behavior that would be required for "pump-out" to be a thing just does not jive.


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## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

For me it is the other way round, it is hard to understand how pump out does not happen. One surface moves and carries with it some thermal compound out of the gap, then things cool and the movement reverses, but the compound that was carried out will now find it hard to fit back and some will be scraped by the edge.

Here is more detail of how I visualize things:

When hot the heatsink bows outward as well as expanding since the heat is mainly generated around the center, this drives the compound to the periphery.
When cooling the heat sink flattens back out so helping chop off the compound that left the chip


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## Falkentyne (Jun 7, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Certainly. I think there needs to be some experimentation to flesh out what is really going on. The material behavior that would be required for "pump-out" to be a thing just does not jive.



I've already seen this myself on my 3090 FE.  This was with Thermalright TFX and Thermalright Odyssey 1.5mm pads.

When I had Thermalright Odyssey pads, temps rose steadily after a few weeks.  First was the core to core hot spot delta increasing.  Started at 10C, then ended up at 16C After three weeks.
Then the overall temp increasing under the same ambients (77C-->82C load).

Took off the heatsink and investigated.
There were small sections along the VERY EDGE of the core with no paste on the die at all.  Welp, there's your hotspot problem.  And there were sections where the paste seemed to have great contact and areas with it poor, in a concentric shape.  Igor's lab explains all of this.

Just look at the pictures.  You do know who Igor is, right?  he used to write reviews for Tom's Hardware.









						GeForce RTX 3080 and RTX 3090 with bended package - why water and air coolers have such a hard time | Investigative | igor'sLAB
					

Of course, you'll be amazed if, for example, three supposedly identical cards from one manufacturer have completely different temperatures or fan speeds and this is then reflected very similarly in…




					www.igorslab.de
				




There's an obvious contact problem.  Take a look at the plots and the high resolution scans.  Normal people don't have access to such expensive equipment to measure this stuff.



			https://www.igorslab.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Die-01-1024x594.jpg
		




			https://www.igorslab.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Die-02.jpg
		


This is what causes your "pump out" which is accelerated by low PSI pressure.
Heatsink contacts paste, thermal cycling shifts the paste around, areas with low contact end up getting even lower contact, some sections get pushed out.  Heatsink expands/contracts, paste gets shifted around, until the end user notices something isn't right.

When I tested Kryonaut Extreme on my 3090 FE with the Thermalright pads, the problem was even worse.
Kryonaut Extreme was about 1C worse than TFX starting out (as expected on direct dies, just like shown here):






						TechnologyGuide
					

Thank you for visiting the TechnologyGuide network. Unfortunately, these forums are no longer active. We extend a heartfelt thank you to the entire community for their steadfast support—it is really you, our readers, that drove




					forum.notebookreview.com
				




But after just ONE week, temps had worsened by 5C.  FIVE C.  Is massive.  And it just took one week of gaming and looping Heaven benchmark for it to happen.

I took off the heatsink and was horrified by what I saw.
While the entire die had "paste" on it, the KE was in a really 'swimmy" type pattern, absolutely nothing like what it looked like when I had tested and removed it on my CPU or my other video cards.  It looked very similar to what the "soupy MX4" looked like, except the paste was still fully intact (probably was reusable too but I never re-use).  The paste was simply too thin for the terrible contact pressure that was happening, but was naturally thicker  at first since it was spread thick and had to compress.

Note: I saw this exact same 'swimmy' pattern on my dead Vega 64, when I applied Kryonaut to it and mounted the PCB to the heatsink, but didn't screw in the X-bracket around the die.  Left it there for a month, took it off, and saw that same weird "wavy" pattern.   And without the X-bracket, mounting pressure was extremely low, so there you go (I noticed this long after I fixed my 3090 FE deltas; I was preparing the dead Vega 64 for selling on ebay as parts).

The cause:
The TR Odyssey 1.5mm pads.  1.0mm were too thin (there would be no contact with the VRM's or VRAM) but the Thermalright pads had a too high shore rating for the leaf spring (unlike AMD cards, only the leaf spring screws helped with mounting pressure!) to compress the pads enough and to keep proper contact with the core!  A quick test with "Fujifilm Ultra Low Prescale" contact paper determined my worst fears--there wasn't 'even a mark left on the contact paper!

So yes, extremely low contact pressure also causes pump out (paste flattens, no longer makes proper 'complete' contact due to convex cores, problem exasperated by too hard thermal pads).

Solution:
Stuck with Thermalright TFX, switched out the Thermalright Odyssey 1.5mm pads for Gelid Extreme 1.5mm pads.  These pads are much softer and thus compress more easily, giving the leaf spring less work to do.
I didn't take a picture, but a test with Fujifilm Ultra Low Prescale (25-85 PSI rating) showed some nice bright red marks fully around the die, showing MUCH better contact was being made.  While it wasn't completely uniform everywhere, at least it was mostly in the pattern of the die, there were actual red marks around the edges, and remember--the first test showed literally no firm contact at all (<25 PSI obviously), so that means changing to softer pads made a gigantic difference. In fact the pressure was showing up as better on the 3090 FE now, than on my (sanded die + IHS relidded) 9900k + NH-D15!

End result:
10-11C Core temp->Core hotspot deltas after 24 days.

I think that's a big win and shows that pump out is a real thing, and is worse with runny paste on imperfect dies and heatsinks.
This was not cheap for me to test.  I spent a LOT of money buying different thermal pastes and pads, and I never would have solved this without reading other people's comments about 3080 FE's and 2mm Gelid Extreme pads 'working' vs 2mm Thermalright pads 'having terrible core contact', and eventually put 2 and 2 together (3090 FE's use thinner pads, but it was the same thing re Odyssey hardness vs Gelid Extreme softness).


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## joemama (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> For me it is the other way round, it is hard to understand how pump out does not happen. One surface moves and carries with it some thermal compound out of the gap, then things cool and the movement reverses, but the compound that was carried out will now find it hard to fit back and some will be scraped by the edge.
> 
> Here is more detail of how I visualize things:
> 
> ...


Then the pump out effect should be more significant on coolers without heat pipes direct contact or even without heat pipes at all since the temperature gradient would be higher.


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## unclewebb (Jun 7, 2021)

Falkentyne said:


> I've already seen this myself


Thank you for the informative post.



Falkentyne said:


> but that was a problem with MX-4


I have had multiple users tell me about problems with MX-4 when used on laptop CPUs. Things are great at first but in some cases, within one week, the temperatures are already going up and up.



lexluthermiester said:


> some silly "pump-out effect".


You can come up with a new name for what is going on if you like. This problem is definitely not silly in the world of high performance gaming laptops. Not all pastes are created equal when used at high temperatures with less than great contact pressure between the heatsink and die.

Instead of pump out how about thermal paste that quickly goes to crap? Most thermal paste review sites round up 20 different pastes and test each one for 5 minutes and then move on to the next. They use desktop processors with an integrated heat spreader. These kind of tests are meaningless for laptop owners. Long term tests for laptops running consistently at high temperatures are hard to find.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 7, 2021)

unclewebb said:


> This problem is definitely not silly in the world of high performance gaming laptops.


I have plenty of experience with performance laptops.


unclewebb said:


> Not all pastes are created equal when used at high temperatures with less than great contact pressure between the heatsink and die.


True on both points!



unclewebb said:


> Instead of pump out how about thermal paste that quickly goes to crap? Most thermal paste review sites round up 20 different pastes and test each one for 5 minutes and then move on to the next. They use desktop processors with an integrated heat spreader. These kind of tests are meaningless for laptop owners. Long term tests for laptops running consistently at high temperatures are hard to find.


This is what needs testing.

There needs to be some lab grade R&D work on this subject to discover what is actually taking place.


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## Athlonite (Jun 7, 2021)

I've never experienced pump-out on any of the systems I've built over the years but then I've always been a proponent of spreading just enough paste to very thinly cover a GPU or CPU IHS when ever I've had to remove a cooler to clean it I pay particular attention to how the paste has acted If I see a fair bit around the edges and bog all in the middle then I use less paste when reapplying


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## nguyen (Jun 7, 2021)

Athlonite said:


> I've never experienced pump-out on any of the systems I've built over the years but then I've always been a proponent of spreading just enough paste to very thinly cover a GPU or CPU IHS when ever I've had to remove a cooler to clean it I pay particular attention to how the paste has acted If I see a fair bit around the edges and bog all in the middle then I use less paste when reapplying



Most of the time the surface of IHS are not hot enough to cause issue, and you don't even need the cooler to cover the entire IHS (Intel stock heatsink just has a copper center). On bare die, even if you miss one small part of the die that is enough to cause issue (1 core will exhibit much higher temperature than the others).

I have seen Kryonaut degraded after 3 months on 1080Ti with stock blower (load temp ~ 80C) and after just a few thermal cycles on my laptop with 10875H (load temp ~ 90C). Meanwhile Kryonaut can last a long time on desktop CPU (load temp ~ 60C) and watercooled GPU (Load temp ~40C).

It's safe to assume that high temperature will affect the lifespan of TIM, especially high performance/ low visosity TIM that appear to be wet and easy to spread.


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## MIRTAZAPINE (Jun 7, 2021)

Falkentyne said:


> It's always due to a lack of mounting pressure OR due to a convex/concave heatsink/CPU/GPU Core (which means un-uniform mounting pressure).  Because if the contact isn't completely level, due to the almighty laws of physics, heat expands, cold contracts, the paste gets shifted around and eventually ends up outside the die.
> 
> This is different from paste degradation (separation) where the paste (heat conductive part) ends out outside the die while the die is still covered in silicon oil, which usually only happens with the extreme thermal stresses from direct die applications...I'm not sure if this was an issue with Kryonaut at very high temps (which is why it's only rated to 80C while Kryonaut Extreme isn't), but that was a problem with MX-4.
> 
> ...



Call me old school I trust MX2 got 65G of this paste. Like you said it just durable and thick like the paste of the old days like Artic Silver 5 or Shin-etsu.


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## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

I am pumped (couldn't resist) that we have finally gone past the equivalent of

"This car is faster by 1 mph, so it is better"

and are finally considering other factors such as long term reliability.

Hard to understand why some pastes are aging if based on silicone oil which should be good to around 500°C unless it is metal powders that are being used (silver or aluminum) rather than oxides (ceramics)



lexluthermiester said:


> There needs to be some lab grade R&D work on this subject to discover what is actually taking place.



How to Avoid Pump-out and Achieve Efficient Heat Transfer - Electrolube
"it’s not all about thermal conductivity"

Reliability Testing Of Thermal Greases | Electronics Cooling (electronics-cooling.com)
"To simulate the pump-out effect of grease layers due to the dimensional changes in the package, an accelerated mechanical cycling test was adopted."

Advanced Thermal Management Materials, Jiang, Guosheng, Diao, Liyong, Kuang, Ken, eBook - Amazon.com


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## freeagent (Jun 7, 2021)

500c is a pretty big number.. I would be impressed if it could handle water boiling temps without running away from the heat.


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## mtcn77 (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Hard to understand why some pastes are aging if based on silicone oil which should be good to around 500°C *unless it is metal powders that are being used *(silver or aluminum) rather than oxides (ceramics)
> 
> 
> I cannot imagine that this has not already been done by the aerospace industry, military or even electronics industry.
> ...


Don't believe anything that doesn't use the term 'caking'.
The testing has to incorporate evaporative loss of solvate integrity like it happened with the diamond product. Oils are considered non-evaporating, but that is not a tested observation.


----------



## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

260°C will do for me


----------



## mtcn77 (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> 260°C will do for me


Viscosity, covalent bond strength are the primary variables, not what they brandish on the product.


----------



## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

I think surface tension also plays an important role with pump-out and this can be augmented with surfactants.

Not sure about viscosity; one wants the oil to be able to find its way back in after pump-out and surfactants will also help the oil not separate from the thermal filler.


----------



## mtcn77 (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Not sure about viscosity; one wants the oil to be able to find its way back in after pump-out and surfactants will also help the oil not separate from the thermal filler.


I didn't know about the surfactant part. Perhaps, it is the same with you on viscosity;


> Resistance to Shear Stress:​When synthetic or mineral oils pass through narrow gaps under pressure, shear stress destroys the oil molecules, causing a drop in viscosity.








						Shin-Etsu Silicone : Silicone Fluids：The Unique Properties of Silicones
					

Shin-Etsu Silicone is totally committed to meeting the needs of our customers. You have the choice of around 5,000 different kinds of high-performance silicone products to meet your needs, as they are suited to be used in various fields such as electrical, electronics, automotive, machines...



					www.shinetsusilicone-global.com


----------



## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I didn't know about the surfactant part. Perhaps, it is the same with you on viscosity;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One thing I recall from a course on tribology years back was that some long chains introduced for viscosity align under shear and so no longer function for this purpose, but here we don't really have shear, and as I mentioned above, I don't know if high viscosity is desirable.

My thoughts are on wettability at the moment
Wetting - Wikipedia
and for that the solid-liquid interaction strength should be strong and the liquid-liquid interaction strength should be weak. By solid I have in mind not just the heat-sink and chip but also the thermal filler. Surfactants
Surfactant - Wikipedia
should help and I wonder if they are already being used in thermal greases.


----------



## mtcn77 (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> and for that the solid-liquid interaction strength should be strong and the liquid-liquid interaction strength should be weak.


I agree surfactants increase solvant interactions, but don't they increase emulsion/suspension interactions between liquids, had me questioning their value...


----------



## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

Isn't that what we want? to keep the filler from separating from the oil and keep the whole lot stuck to the metal interface.


----------



## mtcn77 (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Isn't that what we want? to keep the filler from separating from the oil and keep the whole lot stuck to the metal interface.


Your source is saying liquid interactions are bad, I'm just basing on your good judgement. I didn't go to tribology engineering, wish I had.


----------



## Shrek (Jun 7, 2021)

Which source is that? and anyhow surfactants are for the liquid solid interface. Ah, you mean the liquid-liquid interactions should not overwhelm the liquid-solid ones?

Tribology; worst course I ever took...


----------



## mtcn77 (Jun 7, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Which source is that? and anyhow surfactants are for the liquid solid interface. Ah, you mean the liquid-liquid interactions should not overwhelm the liquid-solid ones?
> 
> Tribology; worst course I ever took...


Yes.

There was a friction formula involving "1/50" can you find that? It was neat.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> How to Avoid Pump-out and Achieve Efficient Heat Transfer - Electrolube
> "it’s not all about thermal conductivity"


This seemed more like a company promotion piece than an actual testing document. No testing parameters, methodologies or results were described or declared. Not an article we can cite for any conclusion.



Andy Shiekh said:


> Reliability Testing Of Thermal Greases | Electronics Cooling (electronics-cooling.com)
> "To simulate the pump-out effect of grease layers due to the dimensional changes in the package, an accelerated mechanical cycling test was adopted."


While this article goes into more detail, it does not exclusively examine the the effect as it is a more broad effort of looking at, as the article title states, "Reliability Testing Of Thermal Greases". Their own conclusion says it all on the subject:


> These tests typically overestimate the reliability of a thermal grease layer, primarily since they do not simulate the pump-out mechanism accurately.


Again, not an article we can cite for a conclusion.



Andy Shiekh said:


> Advanced Thermal Management Materials, Jiang, Guosheng, Diao, Liyong, Kuang, Ken, eBook - Amazon.com


I'm familiar with that book, though it's been a few years. Don't remember them discussing anything related to "pump-out", though to be fair, I did just skim through it looking for other information. As the link you provided is just a purchase link, it's not something we can cite for conclusion.

I have also been looking for examples of research and testing on this subject and don't think anyone has done any extensive research on this effect that has been published.
This lack of information allows us to arrive at a set of preliminary conclusion possibilities.
1. No one has done extensive research because it is not an effect that can be reliably tested due to wide variations in both testing environments as well as TIM formulations.
2. No one has done research because is just not a big enough problem that requires the expenditure of time and resources to test.
3. No one has done research because no one knows about the effect due to the difficulty of testing and examining the effect.
4. No one has researched the matter due to some other unknown reason.
5. A combination of all or some of the above.



MIRTAZAPINE said:


> Call me old school I trust MX2 got 65G of this paste.


Stick with it! TIM's are not like the technologies they are applied to, they don't become obsolete over time. They continue to perform at the same level as when they were first released.


----------



## Shrek (Jun 8, 2021)

Seems we have ascertained that pump-out is real.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Seems we have ascertained that pump-out is real.


Not really. We have confirmed that it's a term that has been used to a minor degree. However the cause/effect/process has not been properly researched. The cause is only theorized, it has not been proven. 

Why is it some TIM's seem to react this way and not others of similar composition? 

Why is it the effect is seen in one situation and not another very similar situation?

At the moment, there are WAY to many unknowns for people of any level of expertise to say with any measure of authority " This is what this is and it is not that. ".


----------



## Mussels (Jun 8, 2021)

Some TIMs get runny when too hot.

Thats confirmed, thats the real issue

We as geeks, now need to find a thermal paste with good results that handles high temps well long term, since hardwares gotten hotter these days (good old 3090 VRAM at 110C and 5800x at 85C...)


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Some TIMs get runny when too hot.
> 
> Thats confirmed, thats the real issue
> 
> We as geeks, now need to find a thermal paste with good results that handles high temps well long term, since hardwares gotten hotter these days (good old 3090 VRAM at 110C and 5800x at 85C...)




what about some kind of electrical tape, cut very tiny so that it can fit where the cpu/heatsink merge, but a much stronger bond on the tape than normal electrical tape - and it wraps the entire way around. then we could all use Conductonaut safely (assuming heatsink is not aluminum but most aren't most have that copper bottom), have the best temps, and 0 worries.

thoughts?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Some TIMs get runny when too hot.
> 
> Thats confirmed, thats the real issue


Well yes, but that's just runny TIM getting to hot and leaking out of the area of application. That is not the same is what is claimed to be happening in "pump-out effect". With that it is theorized that the TIM will vacate the area of application due to differentials taking place under heat induced expansion and contraction cycles between the IC die and the baseplate of the heatsink. This is what needs research.



lynx29 said:


> what about some kind of electrical tape, cut very tiny so that it can fit where the cpu/heatsink merge, but a much stronger bond on the tape than normal electrical tape - and it wraps the entire way around. then we could all use Conductonaut safely (assuming heatsink is not aluminum but most aren't most have that copper bottom), have the best temps, and 0 worries.
> 
> thoughts?


That is been tried before. The adhesive for the "tape" would need to be on both sides and made of compounds that are thermally conductive. As a general rule adhesives do not make good thermal conductors because they need to have certain characteristics not compatible with thermal conduction.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 8, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That is been tried before. The adhesive for the "tape" would need to be on both sides and made of compounds that are thermally conductive. As a general rule adhesives do not make good thermal conductors because they need to have certain characteristics not compatible with thermal conduction.



why does it need to be sticky on both sides? i don't understand and why does it need to be conductive, I don't get that either


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jun 8, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> why does it need to be sticky on both sides?


Because you would need to have the pliable compound on both surfaces. Otherwise you would not get good filling effect of the imperfections of each surface.


lynx29 said:


> i don't understand and why does it need to be conductive, I don't get that either


Thermally conductive. Otherwise it becomes a thermal insulator and that would not work well to transmit heat away from the source.


----------



## Mussels (Jun 8, 2021)

you could just slap a layer of blutack around your CPU and enjoy it as it melts from the heat


----------



## Caring1 (Jun 8, 2021)

A heat resistant silicon sealant would do the job around the cpu and cold plate to prevent pump out.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Some TIMs get runny when too hot.
> 
> Thats confirmed, thats the real issue
> 
> We as geeks, now need to find a thermal paste with good results that handles high temps well long term, since hardwares gotten hotter these days (good old 3090 VRAM at 110C and 5800x at 85C...)


Hi,
I can see the comparison with 5800x but 3090 vram/... you're in thermal pad land now and they don't get runny so comparison is not good for this topic.


----------



## Mussels (Jun 8, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> I can see the comparison with 5800x but 3090 vram/... you're in thermal pad land now and they don't get runny so comparison is not good for this topic.


well yes it is, because it causes the thermal pads themselves to leak out their oil - it's a totally valid example of how modern hardware is hotter than previous gens and requires different cooling solutions


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> well yes it is, because it causes the thermal pads themselves to leak out their oil - it's a totally valid example of how modern hardware is hotter than previous gens and requires different cooling solutions


Hi,
Only thermal pads I've had issues with are evga's they really do suck greesy double stick tape lol


----------



## Falkentyne (Jun 8, 2021)

Mussels said:


> well yes it is, because it causes the thermal pads themselves to leak out their oil - it's a totally valid example of how modern hardware is hotter than previous gens and requires different cooling solutions



What's sort of funny is that the 3090 FE's backplate causes Gelid Extremes (only on the backplate side, NOT on the core side which is much cooler) to melt and turn into sticky gooey putty (can't remove the backplate at that point unless you pre-heat it to 100C with a miner and quickly power off and disassemble, or use a hairdryer on it), but it affects performance by a whopping 0C.  There was no oil leaked anywhere, just melted pads.  Then again, I guess that's why TG-PP10 thermal putty works so well.  I don't believe that happens to the harder (higher shore) Gelid Ultimates, but I'm not taking off my backplate to check the Ultimates on it (Until my next repaste when I try SYY-157 on the core).


----------



## Shrek (Jun 10, 2021)

How many devices come with solid thermal paste from the factory? (this would reduce the pump-out effect)

TPM350/550 Thermal Phase Change Material
TPM350 Thermal Phase Change Material - Electrolube
TPM550 Thermal Phase Change Material - Electrolube

One 'paints' this on and it then dries; however this does not stay solid.

Perhaps a thermal paste that dries and stays dry would be best.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

now the weird german comes again and preaches; thermalpaste is not suitable for every device.


I use a completely different product and am still convinced that it is superior to any thermalpaste. just because it conducts 5 times more heat. it is a carbon fiber network. it is dry. reusable. costs less than premiumpaste and easy to handle. especially in FLAT objects...


what do you think I might have had for once nen good advice in stock??!


----------



## Mussels (Jun 20, 2021)

plastisch said:


> now the weird german comes again and preaches; thermalpaste is not suitable for every device.
> 
> 
> I use a completely different product and am still convinced that it is superior to any thermalpaste. just because it conducts 5 times more heat. it is a carbon fiber network. it is dry. reusable. costs less than premiumpaste and easy to handle. especially in FLAT objects...
> ...


it doesnt conduct 5x more heat.

Have you read reviews on it, or just seen the marketing?


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> it doesnt conduct 5x more heat.
> 
> Have you read reviews on it, or just seen the marketing?


it depends on the paste u use. paste are between 12-18w/mK.

okay u are kinda sceptic. thats totally okay. i use it personally and my CPU temps are lower and its just comfortable



Mussels said:


> it doesnt conduct 5x more heat.
> 
> Have you read reviews on it, or just seen the marketing?








						Frage - Wärmeleitpads - unabhängige Tests?
					

Hallo ihr Lieben,  ausgelöst durch die neue Möglichkeit (für Endkunden) die GDDR6X-Temperaturen auszulesen habe ich mir ein paar Gedanken gemacht und will gerne mal die Pads auf meiner Karte tauschen - der allgemeine Verbesserungsdrang eben  Bisher hatte ich mit den Thermal Grizzly Minus Pad 8...




					www.igorslab.de
				




there are many of those sites. but german. IF U ARE INTERESTED i could make a summary for u in english ofc

Thermal Grizzly specifies a thermal conductivity value of 62.5 W/mk. This means that the thermal conductive pad, which consists of carbon fibers, achieves an almost identical value to liquid metal and is accordingly also electrically conductive. Therefore, the correct size should always be applied so that no neighboring electronic component is touched by it. The temperature range of the pad is specified as -250 to +150 °C Celsius. The thickness of the Carbonaut is 0.2 mm - so it is very thin.

Practice
Test system    
Mainboard ASUS ROG STRIX X299-E GAMING II / MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE
Processor INTEL CORE i7-7800X / AMD RYZEN 7 3800X
Memory 4x CORSAIR DOMINATOR PLATINUM RGB - DDR4 - 3600 MHz - 8 GB
Processor cooler ASUS ROG RYUJIN 360
Graphics card KFA2 GeForce GTX 1650
M.2 SSD / SSD / External SSD CRUCIAL BX250 / CORSAIR MP600 / SAMSUNG PORTABLE T5

We tested the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut thermal pad on an Intel CORE i7-7800X. The processor was decapitated and liquid metal was applied between the DIE and the heatspreader. We also test it on an AMD RYZEN 7 3800X which is mounted on a MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE.

Application/Application


A thermal paste can be applied in different ways and costs a bit of work to remove and can mess up one or the other component. This is different with the Carbonaut, which simply has to be applied to the processor or the component to be cooled. Thus, the replacement of a processor can't be made easier. Furthermore, the thermal pad can still be used after the exchange. However, you should be careful when removing it if the carbonaut sticks to the processor or cooler, otherwise the heat conduction pad can be damaged. In the picture, the thermal pad is on an AMD RYZEN 7 3800X. It looks similar with Skylake-X or Cascade-Lake-X processors.


Test with Intel i7-7800X


As we can see, the CPU temperature with the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut on is 4 °Celsius higher at the maximum temperatures. But not only the maximum CPU temperature is higher but also the average CPU temperature. This also tells us how well the thermal pad conducts the heat. This looks quite different for the tested thermal pastes. The difference between the coolest and warmest CPU core is 9 °Celsius for the PHANTEKS PH-NDC and 8 °Celsius for the NOCTUA NT-H2. The difference for the Carbonaut is 6 °Celsius. We like the first result very much, as the temperatures are not that much higher and save us the hassle of cleaning the CPU and applying thermal paste.


Test with AMD RYZEN 7 3800X


We achieve a slightly better result in the test on the AMD RYZEN 7 3800X. Here, the difference between the Carbonaut and the PHANTEKS PH-NDC and NOCTUA NT-H2 is a maximum of 3.5 °Celsius. It is even only 3.2 °Celsius for the CCD temperature. We find the result impressive here as well.


Conclusion
The thermal grizzly Carbonaut is available from 9 €, but costs 12 € in the 38 x 38 mm variant we tested. This puts the price in a range where we can also buy good thermal pastes. However, we cannot compare the whole thing since thermal paste is consumed and we can use the Carbonaut more often. Thus, the price/performance is better in our opinion. Especially when we consider that the temperature difference is small, and this despite the fact that we compared the Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut with two of the current best thermal pastes on the market. Applying the Carbonaut is very easy and saves us from having to clean the CPU or GPU. Furthermore, we don't have to apply anything awkwardly. The latter can be a bit annoying depending on the thermal paste. What should also be considered is that the carbonaut never needs to be changed. With thermal paste, the contained liquid can escape and thus the heat transfer can become worse. Since the Carbonaut is a carbon fiber thermal pad, this is not a problem.
We award 9.0 out of 10 points. Furthermore, we can express our price/performance recommendation, since we can continue to use the Carbonaut heat conduction pad even after the processor has been replaced and thus only a one-time purchase is necessary.

Pros:
+ Good thermal conductivity for a thermal pad.
+ Good price
+ Very easy to apply
+ Can be used several times
+ Cheap, because reusable up to 50x (50x estimated)
+ Clean connection of heatspreader and CPU cooler
+ No residues after higher temperature
+ Does not attack surface structures

Cons:
- Electrically conductive







okayish so far? i u need more there are plenty sites of it


----------



## Mussels (Jun 20, 2021)

That thermal conductivity only works sideways, not vertically.

They cool worse than thermal paste, you're falling for marketing based on the source material and not the results of the actual product...

Heres one - where they say it matches cheap thermal paste, and only for low heat situations





And a youtube review: Ah yes, 5x the thermal conductivity.... for stock paste performance. Hmm.





Then we have derbauer himself with a direct quote about how its worse:









Carbonaut is a good product, and a decent competitor to thermal paste, especially for long term, lower wattage uses. But it is not at all thermally superior.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> That thermal conductivity only works sideways, not vertically.
> 
> They cool worse than thermal paste, you're falling for marketing based on the source material and not the results of the actual product...
> 
> ...




*Ty for this different point of view! appreciate it!*





*can we meet in the middle and say. it is not crappy and useful in special situations?*





_I have read the report and believe that it is truthful but not objective enough and one-sided moderated._

_the material carbon fiber is one of the most versatile that we have available in our time. small excursion to WIKIPEDIA.

nevertheless

in the comparison of materials carbon is better than silicone oil









						Carbon fibers - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



__








						Thermal paste - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



_


----------



## Mussels (Jun 20, 2021)

You're just ranting about the material, which has nothing to do with the actual product.
It's useful, but inferior to thermal paste for almost all applications except a small niche.


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Mussels said:


> You're just ranting about the material, which has nothing to do with the actual product.
> It's useful, but inferior to thermal paste for almost all applications except a small niche.



TRUE period




Mussels said:


> You're just ranting about the material, which has nothing to do with the actual product.
> It's useful, but inferior to thermal paste for almost all applications except a small niche.



i was somehow always unsure about the use of thermalpaste, too much, too little, not moderate enough, squeezes out at the sides. dries out.
i think it's my personal type of comfort that chose this product.
so far i have not regretted. i am quite happy about this-

what I'm also glad that there are also people here in the portal who have a different point of view and rich experience that can be individually and in a pleasant atmosphere sometimes crossed without the other immediately loses his mind and face.
you NEVER stop learning.


----------



## Shrek (Jun 20, 2021)

A thermal pad is thicker than grease and this counters the thermal conductivity.

However, it does solve the pump-out effect.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> A thermal pad is thicker than grease and this counters the thermal conductivity.
> 
> However, it does solve the pump-out effect.



short and painless conclusion, mate


----------



## delshay (Jun 20, 2021)

@plastisch​
Can you point me to thermal paste that have 18W m/k?


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

delshay said:


> @plastisch​
> Can you point me to thermal paste that have 18W m/k?



i apologize i cant find it anymore in that short time window. the highest was 16 i could locate real quick. but i am pretty sure the was a 18 as well. i could swear...

_*BUT let me be clear: I NEVER tested them and i def. will not put my hand for these products into fire. Nore i will use paste ever again for my setup.*_


----------



## Bones (Jun 20, 2021)

I guess I'll throw in and you guys know what I do. I'm always reTIM'ing my stuff anyway so I get to see what it does, both from things getting hot AND cold (Subzero) so if it has been seen before I certainly have.

The pump out effect is just that, it's an effect due to the thermal expansion and contraction of the components involved and depending on the conditions these pieces operate within that will determine what goes.
It's really nothing more than stating a natural effect of this repeated heating and cooling, when the pieces get warm they expand and want to squeeze to each other a little tighter displacing the TIM, when they cool they don't squeeze as hard so less TIM displacement happens - If they get cold thats when you see the opposite effect.
The extreme expression of it happens when things are subzero, in that event it's known as "Cracking" of the TIM. That's when the pieces get so cold they actually begin to pull away from each other and since the TIM is present (And frozen too) it becomes solid and can then be cracked by the force of this separation effect, leading to actual loss of cooling conduction.
XOC guys like me deal with this all the time BTW.

You must remember things like the CPU's lid/core and the cooler are solid, not liquid or even "Soft", the amount of movement from this thermal effect you can't perceieve yet it's there. As for the TIM, it's in a liquid or semi-liquid state so it "Flows" and that's what it's supposed to do by what it is and how it has to work.

Once TIM is present and the pieces have been installed with the expected mounting pressures the natural squeeze effect takes place, displacing some of the TIM to another spot. This means it moves along, either to just another spot or outside of the area where the cooler and CPU lid/core are together under pressure.

_Since TIM is supposed to fill in the microscopic pits and valleys of these machined surfaces_ it will either find one to settle into or just keep moving along.

With each heating and cooling cycle it gets moved a little further, it can't move into a pit or valley that already has TIM settled in it largely because you can't compress a liquid/semi-liquid so it's forced to keep moving along, eventually finding a place it can settle into or winding up outside the surface area of the cooler and CPU lid/core.
It can _displace_ what's there but you can never get more of it packed within the same spot period, something has to give or remain. If it's displaced that bit of it moves along too like the rest does.

What remains is just that, the TIM that did manage to settle into such a pit or valley and it will remain there, esp after the expected drying out takes place with that making it more of a solid than it was when first applied since when it's more of a solid so it doesn't get displaced readily if at all.

Obviously thicker TIMs will not move along as readily, thinner ones will in comparison.
The thinning that takes place from heat helps it to find and get into these places to fill in these gaps that exists on the surfaces of the cooler and CPU lid/core and it's supposed to do that. If there is no longer any spots it can settle into, it has no choice but to keep moving until it does wind up being outside the area the cooler and CPU lid/core "Meets" and you see it as TIM squeeze-out, hence the "Pump-Out" effect.

This can also be determined by just how flat these surfaces are _to each other_, the flatter/better they are to each other the more TIM you'll see getting outside the area. By the same token the less perfect or in this case, square to each other the less you'll have coming out.
Yes, it's possible for a cooler to not be perfectly square due to machining imperfections such as a wavy or slightly curved cooler surface for example - We've all seen it before to know it's a reality.

Another thing is in how flat/smooth these surfaces are when made in the first place.
Even with surfaces that are flat to each other, that in itself doesn't mean you don't have alot of places/spot it can settle into for holding it.
_A more perfectly machined surface will have less spots (pit and valley's)_ so you'll have less TIM settling in since it's not needed in this case.

You also have to remember the thermal expansion and cooling of these pieces/surfaces doesn't stop, if it's being used you'll have that happening. Once enough has been "Pumped Out" with all the little pits and valley's filled, things will stabilize and this effect related to the TIM no longer happens.

Perhaps my explanation isn't perfect but that's what I've noticed over time and experience with it and believe me, I can go through some TIM in a very short amount of time with what I do.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Bones said:


> I guess I'll throw in and you guys know what I do. I'm always reTIM'ing my stuff anyway so I get to see what it does, both from things getting hot AND cold (Subzero) so if it has been seen before I certainly have.
> 
> The pump out effect is just that, it's an effect due to the thermal expansion and contraction of the components involved and depending on the conditions these pieces operate within that will determine what goes.
> It's really nothing more than stating a natural effect of this repeated heating and cooling, when the pieces get warm they expand and want to squeeze to each other a little tighter displacing the TIM, when they cool they don't squeeze as hard so less TIM displacement happens - If they get cold thats when you see the opposite effect.
> ...











						DeepL Translate: The world's most accurate translator
					

Translate texts & full document files instantly. Accurate translations for individuals and Teams. Millions translate with DeepL every day.




					www.deepl.com
				




deepL! my best friend with those complex textes! perfect written text.

and this is just the perfect describtion how it works!
like the sand and stones in a river. they move not themselves. they get moved by external motion


----------



## Bones (Jun 20, 2021)

plastisch said:


> DeepL Translate: The world's most accurate translator
> 
> 
> Translate texts & full document files instantly. Accurate translations for individuals and Teams. Millions translate with DeepL every day.
> ...


Thanks!
For what I do, understanding how TIM works is important like all else related.
To make the point I took a screenie and it shows I'm right there with Der8auer himself, maybe I had to run more MHz (Due to lack of dual channel with the chip) but I got it. If you can't get everything right when on the edge you won't get anything in return for your efforts.
He's #1 all-time for FX in 1M Super PI, I'm #2 for the same but know the MHz I was running IS currently the WR for the clockspeed ran in any benchmark period regardless of chip/socket to get an actual result, not just for a CPU-Z validation. There are validations that are higher in MHz but not for benchmark results with the clockspeed I was running.

To catch him I have more work to do and ATM I'm working on a few things for that.
Maybe I will, maybe not but should be fun anyway.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Bones said:


> Thanks!
> For what I do, understanding how TIM works is important like all else related.
> To make the point I took a screenie and it shows I'm right there with Der8auer himself, maybe I had to run more MHz (Due to lack of dual channel with the chip) but I got it. If you can't get everything right when on the edge you won't get anything in return for your efforts.
> He's #1 all-time for FX in 1M Super PI, I'm #2 for the same but know the MHz I was running IS currently the WR for the clockspeed ran in any benchmark period to get an actual result, not just for a CPU-Z validation. There are validations that are higher in MHz but not for benchmark results with the clockspeed I was running.
> ...




haha. *der Bauer*! well he has BEEF with another very smart older Guy/man which is famous for his PC-Tech blogs as well on Youtube. they are so salty nearly SULFUR to eachother. Igor said about the Bauer that he is a true Marketing-Whore.

let me find out what he says.

the screenshot is impressive.





this is DER Bauer's biggest Opponent _IGOR_
gimmie some time to make some research. but i wanted to show u the nightmare for this young guy in person.


----------



## Bones (Jun 20, 2021)

I woudn't doubt it.
Some of what happens is sheer luck, some is skill and knowing how to tweak.
I've always known for each of us that does what we do there is another out there that could be even better at it, so I bear in mind what one has done another can do too. 

I'm not the best by any means, I just know what I know and hope it's enough whenever I go for it.


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Bones said:


> I woudn't doubt it.
> Some of what happens is sheer luck, some is skill and knowing how to tweak.
> I've always known for each of us that does what we do there is another out there that could be even better at it, so I bear in mind what one has done another can do too.
> 
> I'm not the best by any means, I just know what I know and hope it's enough whenever I go for it.



i think we all are enthusiasts. and if there is something not precise enough there is always space to correct it in a fair and positive way. no master has ever fallen from the sky by just random..


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> However, it does solve the pump-out effect.


Well, there IS that! 

Folks we're getting a bit off topic here. Let's rope it in..


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## freeagent (Jun 20, 2021)

I may have had some pump out on my 980 with the TIM I had in there before.. was used to a 62c load that turned into 72c.. I've got some thick stuff in there now, load is now mid 50s with a hotspot in the mid 60s I think? I haven't spent a ton of time on it..


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## Falkentyne (Jun 20, 2021)

Bones said:


> I woudn't doubt it.
> Some of what happens is sheer luck, some is skill and knowing how to tweak.
> I've always known for each of us that does what we do there is another out there that could be even better at it, so I bear in mind what one has done another can do too.
> 
> I'm not the best by any means, I just know what I know and hope it's enough whenever I go for it.



One thing I should say is that Conductonaut is nowhere near 73 w/mk.  Just like Thermalright Silver King's 79 w/mk is even more in outer space.
I made my own Galinstan (liquid metal) from raw materials, and Galinstan is 16.5 w/mk, and I was only 1C behind Conductonaut when tested on the same laptop.
When you have an Eutectic alloy, the w/mk of the entire mixture is always going to be lower than the lowest w/mk of the individual components.
In some deep buried post on notebookreview forums, that I have no hope of finding, someone said that Conductonaut was tested in a lab to around 30 w/mk.

Another property of LM is its thermal conductivity increases as temp rises, while with normal TIM, it decreases.


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Falkentyne said:


> One thing I should say is that Conductonaut is nowhere near 73 w/mk.  Just like Thermalright Silver King's 79 w/mk is even more in outer space.
> I made my own Galinstan (liquid metal) from raw materials, and Galinstan is 16.5 w/mk, and I was only 1C behind Conductonaut when tested on the same laptop.
> When you have an Eutectic alloy, the w/mk of the entire mixture is always going to be lower than the lowest w/mk of the individual components.
> In some deep buried post on notebookreview forums, that I have no hope of finding, someone said that Conductonaut was tested in a lab to around 30 w/mk.
> ...



and u put this liquid-metal fed mixture on the head of a CPU?
help me alittle bit. i am not that familiar with extreme OC "sports"


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## Shrek (Jun 20, 2021)

Here is an AMD report on Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease
Thermal Interface Material Comparison: Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease (chipdb.org)
and it mentions the _*pump-out effect*_, so I guess we can finally take it as real.

It also recognizes the need for the "Long-Term Stability and Reliability of the Material"


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## Falkentyne (Jun 20, 2021)

plastisch said:


> and u put this liquid-metal fed mixture on the head of a CPU?
> help me alittle bit. i am not that familiar with extreme OC "sports"



Yes you apply it to a BGA Direct die CPU and you insulate the area around the CPU so the LM won't spill off onto something and destroy the laptop.  As long as the heatsink is a copper base and is reasonably flat, with somewhat decent mounting pressure, it works.


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Here is an AMD report on Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease
> Thermal Interface Material Comparison: Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease (chipdb.org)
> and it mentions the _*pump-out effect*_, so I guess we can finally take it as real.
> 
> It also recognizes the need for the "Long-Term Stability and Reliability of the Material"




this article can be def. considered pro-pad (carbon sleeve).

at least it is written objectively and benevolently towards the "genre" and does not treat these materials as stepmotherly as die-hard paste fans would possibly do because they suspect that the "age of oil" is coming to an end and the mass with which some like to "lubricate" the CPU will soon be a thing of the past...

yes well now the objectivity is already lost to me again.     
to be fair. some numbers would have been nice as well


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## Shrek (Jun 20, 2021)

Here are some numbers for thermal grease

Power 100 W
Area 3 cm^2
Thickness 0.05 mm
Thermal conductivity 5.6 W/K m
resulting temperature drop ~1°C; so why sweat going much above 5 W/K m for thermal grease



A graphite pad is thicker, perhaps 0.2mm uncompressed but has a thermal conductivity of 35 W/K m which brings us back to a little under 1°C (better if it compressed).

Had I used 4cm x 4cm, things would be a good bit better compared to the 3cm x 3cm I actually used.


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Here are some numbers
> 
> Power 100 W
> Area 3 cm^2
> ...





Carbon fibers are electrically and thermally very good conductors, the electronegativity EN has a very high value of 2,50. The difference to iron (EN=1.64) is very high at 0.86, which is already considerably corrosive in the presence of an electrolyte. By comparison, the difference between iron and aluminum (EN=1.47) is only 0.17. Carbon fibers also have a negative coefficient of thermal expansion in the longitudinal direction at lower temperatures. *When heated, they therefore initially become shorter and thicker.***

The two aforementioned properties result in the compelling need to insulate carbon fiber-based components from other metallic components both mechanically and electrically

** ergo they DO NOT move and stay between the materials and "block" their position


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Here is an AMD report on Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease
> Thermal Interface Material Comparison: Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease (chipdb.org)
> and it mentions the _*pump-out effect*_, so I guess we can finally take it as real.


Agreed. 

So now the question is: How serious of a problem(if any) is it for PC components and DIY/Boutique/Enthusiast PC builders?



plastisch said:


> this article can be def. considered pro-pad (carbon sleeve).


No, this thread is about "Pump-out" effect of fluidic/paste based TIM. Discussion of Thermal Pads needs it's own thread of discussion if users want to flesh out more information about them.


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## Shrek (Jun 20, 2021)

Now things get complicated... then again some people here say they have experienced elevating temperatures with age, and I can only guess that is due to pump-out, but it is only a guess. I'm still wondering about surfactant additions to have the grease fight its way back in.

Well graphite pads might be argued to be a solution to pump-out, but at about $3 a pad compared to the thermal grease I use (about 1¢ an application) I also need to be convinced.


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## lexluthermiester (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> but at $3 a pad


WOW! That's cheap! The least expensive quality pad I can find is $8 for 40x40mm.


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## robot zombie (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Here is an AMD report on Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease
> Thermal Interface Material Comparison: Thermal Pads vs. Thermal Grease (chipdb.org)
> and it mentions the _*pump-out effect*_, so I guess we can finally take it as real.
> 
> It also recognizes the need for the "Long-Term Stability and Reliability of the Material"


I kind of wonder if this is part of the reason for their 'concave' IHS.



Andy Shiekh said:


> Now things get complicated... then again some people here say they have experienced elevating temperatures with age, and I can only guess that is due to pump out, but it is only a guess.


I always just chalked that up to the gradual deterioration of the paste.


Andy Shiekh said:


> 260°C will do for me


I like that Super Lube for many things. It's a good general dielectric grease. Gotta love that teflon stuff. Good at keeping moisture out. Really great on bikes and really any similar mechanisms. Maybe even the more rugged low voltage contacts outdoors. Never thought to plop it around a cpu socket though


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Agreed.
> 
> So now the question is: How serious of a problem(if any) is it for PC components and DIY/Boutique/Enthusiast PC builders?
> 
> ...




your question is relatively easy to answer. i hope

big components = paste ofc. the good/proper one
thin, slim and narrow build components = carbon

it should make sense in some manner and serve the ppls needs (andy has budged e.g.).


maybe i can make a technical comparison with a different example:

normal cars run with accu-batteries in the future. fair!
trucks, trains, and busses just can't - too heavy. they need the stronger hydrogenium H1 BUT it's only 50% as effective and quite expensive to create like nowadays engines.

taking advantage of costs is a must here. then this will be the right patch to success.

squeezed out pasted and ruined components are expensive to restore.
present GPU for notebooks ~850€


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## Shrek (Jun 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> WOW! That's cheap! The least expensive quality pad I can find is $8 for 40x40mm.


Amazon.com: IC Graphite High Compression Thermal Pad (40X40mm 5-Pack) …: Computers & Accessories



robot zombie said:


> I like that Super Lube for many things. It's a good general dielectric grease. Gotta love that teflon stuff. Good at keeping moisture out. Really great on bikes and really any similar mechanisms. Maybe even the more rugged low voltage contacts outdoors. Never thought to plop it around a cpu socket though


I meant the SuperLube thermal grease, not the straight silicone grease or the one with PTFE.


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

robot zombie said:


> I kind of wonder if this is part of the reason for their 'concave' IHS.
> 
> 
> I always just chalked that up to the gradual deterioration of the paste.
> ...


we/I use this for anything whats electric to clean and lube. even the bycicles chain. keep out liquids and delete rust as well


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## robot zombie (Jun 20, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Amazon.com: IC Graphite High Compression Thermal Pad (40X40mm 5-Pack) …: Computers & Accessories
> 
> 
> I meant the SuperLube thermal grease, not the straight silicone grease or the one with PTFE.


Ahhhh, haha. Gotcha. Why do the tubes all look the same? 


plastisch said:


> we/I use this for anything whats electric to clean and lube. even the bycicles chain. keep out liquids


Good stuff. I have so much CRC around though. Nasty stuff. Probably canned cancer. But then so is brake cleaner and that gets a lot done. Completely different products from anything in this thread though


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 20, 2021)

robot zombie said:


> Ahhhh, haha. Gotcha. Why do the tubes all look the same?
> 
> Good stuff. I have so much CRC around though. Nasty stuff. Probably canned cancer. But then so is brake cleaner and that gets a lot done. Completely different products from anything in this thread though



this is a hit product in germany and has 1.000.000 varieties to use since i can think. it is US army stuff... like many things were at first









						WD-40 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






Andy Shiekh said:


> I tend to overthink everything; a bad habit of mine.
> 
> Please excuse me while I apply a little thermal paste...
> View attachment 204745
> that should do it... I've been meaning to make this silly joke for some time now.



good thing: no sunburn! def.´none


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## Shrek (Jun 21, 2021)

Some people complain about separation, where the oil separates from the filler in storage; I am beginning to think this is a bigger issue than I at first thought, as the same will happen in use with the filler being pumped out and only the oil returning.

A demand for high thermal conductivity will drive the manufacturers to a high proportion of filler and this may not be best for longevity. Reminds me of the long chains they added to oil to improve its viscosity but those chains were straightened out in the running bearing and the viscosity effect lost. So straight measurements were showing a viscosity improvement that was not actually present in use. So here we may be seeing great day one performance that may not hold up during prolonged use.

I support my criticism of straight temperature performance by falling back on how well 40% diaper cream performs under this criterion; there is so much more to a TIM. So we look at ways to identify a good thermal grease and I would say one that does not separate in storage is a criterion that goes beyond just 'its cooler'


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