# The Truth About CPU Soldering



## qubit (Mar 2, 2018)

According to this article, soldering the heatspreader to the CPU isn't all it's cracked up to be (literally) so using thermal paste can make sense. My question is, in that case, why doesn't Intel use the best thermal paste possible? Surely, the tiny bit extra that it might cost is negligible and the performance increase and lowered temperature, especially when overclocked more than makes up for it? See what you think.



> Skylake delidding seems to be very common by now. Every day I read postings from people complaining about Intel and the thermal paste between IHS and die. Even tho Skylake is performing great, people are not satisfied with the temperatures on load. Compared to older generations there is conventional thermal paste between the IHS and the die while Sandy Bridge and older CPUs were soldered. Why did Intel change the production and is the thermal paste really that bad?



https://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering


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## R-T-B (Mar 2, 2018)

Hasn't that link been posted in debates like a million times already?

It basically argues it's bad for small dies.  It doesn't mean it's bad for big ones like modern 6-core+ CPUs tend to be, however.

And Intel COULD be using better thermal paste, but honestly?  They have no real economic reason to do so.


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## las (Mar 2, 2018)

Yes I read that post a few years back and Intel is still having issues with temp spiking. Not sure why it has not been fixed yet. I hope Ice Lake will fix it. New arch / design. If not, Intel will start seeing problems as AMD clocks their Zen arch higher and higher. Current Intel's seem to spike after 4.8. 5 and more requires very good cooling or even delid + repaste.

1st gen Ryzen hits a wall around 4 GHz, but they are still fairly cool. I've clocked a 1600 to 4 GHz using cheap air and 65c max load on hottest core.. Meanwhile 7700K hits like 90c at 4.8 using same cheap air cooler (212 Evo).

Hopefully refreshed Ryzen will do 4.2-4.4 and force Intel's hand to do something about the temp spiking (it also limits boost clocks etc).


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## dorsetknob (Mar 2, 2018)

I have always wondered why they solder the heatspredder on some chips
and yet they will refuse a warranty if the CPU is over heated ????
Surely when soldering the heatspredder on ...>> the temp needed will be far inexcess of anything any average user will ever reach.
Does Intel have Some magic way of Soldering 

I have not Dellided since core2  so have no experence of soldered CPU's
IN My Opinion Soldering the heat spredder is a good idea  FOR INTEL and the Average user but they also should have a ( Pro line  not Soldered for people that wish to Delid and repaste ie Overclockers and high perfomance Benchers).

 They Could market Them as ""THE EXTREME RANGE"


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## delshay (Mar 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Hasn't that link been posted in debates like a million times already?
> 
> It basically argues it's bad for small dies.  It doesn't mean it's bad for big ones like modern 6-core+ CPUs tend to be, however.
> 
> And Intel COULD be using better thermal paste, but honestly?  They have no real economic reason to do so.



If you want to hear something a little different, I have gone the other direction. I have soldered the IHS to the heatsink under high pressure. I have had this this for a long time with no degrade in performance on my classic PC. It shows a 1C improvement over Liquid Metal Compound. You can see the result in the Motherboard Capacitor Changeover Thread.


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## Enterprise24 (Mar 2, 2018)

At first I believe der8auer. But I doubt when I saw what happen to 7980XE (428mm^2).


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## qubit (Mar 2, 2018)

Enterprise24 said:


> At first I believe der8auer. But I doubt when I saw what happen to 7980XE (428mm^2).


What happened to it?


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 2, 2018)

I voted other, be I want soldering back (what with soldering not being an actual thermal paste).


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## newtekie1 (Mar 2, 2018)

Going with the best thermal compound possible, a liquid metal variety, would definitely be too expensive to manufacturer.  That stuff is just not easy to work with.

On the other hand, I get why they don't solder, at least on the mainstream products.  I remember them having issues with the solder forming voids all the way back in the Pentium D days.  Extremists were delidding all the way back then because of the voids that would form in the solder.

The fact is that the TIM they use now is good enough so that 90% of their consumers will never even notice the difference.  We are enthusiasts, we overclocked, we check temperatures obsessively for some reason, so we notice the higher temperatures.  But Intel doesn't care about enthusiasts.  Enthusiasts don't make Intel rich.

That said, at the end of the day I would like to see them use a better thermal compound at least.  It doesn't have to be a liquid metal, but the paste they use now is really sub-par.  Delidding and replacing with even MX-4 shows a good improvements in temps.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 2, 2018)

Agreed, even using MX-4 would be an improvement for them, and not cost that much in the grand scheme.


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## mouacyk (Mar 2, 2018)

The answer is YES AND the gap needs to be eliminated.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 2, 2018)

mouacyk said:


> The answer is YES AND the gap needs to be eliminated.



I agree.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if eliminating the large gap between the heatspreader and die isn't the real reason behind the temp decrease when delidding and replacing with normal thermal paste.  The paste Intel uses could actually be good, but when it is so thick because of the gap between the die and IHS, it just looks bad.

I thought I read somewhere that when they did the Devil's Canyon refresh of Haswell they switched to using Shin-Etsu thermal paste under the IHS, which is actually some pretty good stuff.  And I kind of believe that is what they are using, because the last time I had a processor replaced by them, they sent me a tupe of Shin-Etsu to use with the cooler, so it makes sense to me that they are also using that under the IHS too.


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## IceShroom (Mar 2, 2018)

Intel need to use solder the cpus specially these coat more than $200. Deliding is not a feature, it is a burden.

One thing all people forgetting is "*Thermal Conductivity*".
In heat transfer the thermal conductivity of a subtance is an intensive poperty that indicates its ability to conduct heat. It is measured in watts per meter-kelvin(W*m-1*k-1). A subtance with higher thermal contuctivity will transfer more heat that a subtance with lower thermal conductivity.
That is why at same size, a Copper radiator performes better than a Aluminium radiator (cause *Copper’s thermal conductivity is 401 W*m-1*K-1*  and *Aluminium’s thermal conductivity is 237 W*m-1*K-1*).
Also intel may have good engineers that doesn't mean other company don't have good engineers.


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## natr0n (Mar 2, 2018)

With solder it's basically like direct die cooling/contact.

That's how I see it.


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

OFN....how many times does this need to get rehashed??

As an enthusiast, id like to see solder again. On the other hand the current Goop works fine at stock and allows overclocking. Sure, many are temp limited, but what does delidding and voiding your warranty get you? A whopping 100-200 mhz in most cases if you arent voltage limited.

I ran a 7900x at 4.5 ghz all cores/threads, not delidded. I currently run a 7960x at 4.5 ghz 16c/16t, not delidded (i can run all 32t at this speed w/o issue, just dont need HT threads). What will i gain from 4.7 ghz??? In a 8700k, what will i gain to 5.2ghz? People make waaaaay too much out of this. Ironically, people seem to have zero issues with amd chips using solder overclocking 400mhz from base. Without solder my chips are 1.2ghz and 1.7ghz over base...whats the issue? Just something to complain about?

Again, you are paying a premium for the unlocked multi and higher base clockspeed in the x...


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## Ebo (Mar 2, 2018)

I think the one they are using now is good enough for normal use. If you want high OC or bench extreme, just delid, replace with your own favorite tim and loos your warranty....its simply perfect .


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

Ebo said:


> I think the one they are using now is good enough for normal use. If you want high OC or bench extreme, just delid, replace with your own favorite tim and loos your warranty....its simply perfect .


You technically arent warranted anyway when overclocking unless you buy the extra plan....


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## cucker tarlson (Mar 2, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> ey solder the heatspredder on some chips
> and yet they will refuse a warranty if the CPU is over heated ????
> Surely when soldering the heatspredder on ...>> the temp needed will be far inexcess of anything any average user will ever reach.
> Does Intel have Some magic way of Soldering
> ...



I've got 5775c running at 1.416v in IBT at max preset, it barely touches 70 degrees. Thermal paste really ain't so bad if it's decent thermal paste.


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## phanbuey (Mar 2, 2018)

Richard lee said:


> I do believe usually the one they're applying now's sufficient for typical use. If you would like large OC or counter excessive, only delid, change with your own personal beloved tim and loos your warranty....its merely ideal



i mean... 'sufficient' is tough to say when a stock 7900x can overheat and throttle running avx 5 on a tower air cooler.






http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i9-7900x-skylake-x,5092-11.html


That's at stock... running instructions that are within design specifications (Sisoftware Sandra's multimedia benchmark is even worse);

if you delid and replace with a liquid metal tim you will drop 20C and all of the sudden, normal coolers are capable again... (at stock).  I get the argument that "it's fine if you don't OC" but this is really not the case with their $1000! chip...  That's really a design/manufacturing flaw now matter how you dice it.


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

phanbuey said:


> i mean... 'sufficient' is tough to say when a stock 7900x can overheat and throttle running avx 5 on a tower air cooler.


its a 140w chip....a cheap air cooler wont do it... i believe it. Welcome to HEDT requirements. 

Ive reviewed 15 different x299 motherboards using two different 7900x with an h110i cooler able to overclock each cpu to all cores 4.5 ghz before it crapped out temperature wise. Our test uses occt which also uses avx instructions.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 2, 2018)

I'm putting liquid metal on my 8700k next week, my only worry is will I need to re-paste it every 6-12 months, or will it last me a good 2-3 years... hmm i am considering just using Noctua thermal paste for the IHS and the outside... i know it won't be as good, but it should still keep temps down better than stock paste, plus i won't have to repaste it for a solid 3-4 years.


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## phanbuey (Mar 2, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> its a 140w chip....a cheap air cooler wont do it... i believe it. Welcome to HEDT requirements.



I mean I get that... but when you go from a cooler being "not viable" to "viable" with a 15C TIM paste change, on a $1k chip... it's hard not to think "yeah... they should have just soldered this".



lynx29 said:


> I'm putting liquid metal on my 8700k next week, my only worry is will I need to re-paste it every 6-12 months, or will it last me a good 2-3 years... hmm i am considering just using Noctua thermal paste for the IHS and the outside... i know it won't be as good, but it should still keep temps down better than stock paste, plus i won't have to repaste it for a solid 3-4 years.



It should last quite a while... silicon lottery has been selling liquid metal delidded chips that are much older than 2-3 years and they are still going strong.


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

See my edit... 

Not sure what the deal with Toms sample was, but my two for review are good under a corsair 2x120 aio.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 2, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> See my edit...
> 
> Not sure what the deal with Toms sample was, but my two for review are good under a corsair 2x120 aio.



I have my 8700k on a Noctua NH-D14 with 3x 140mm fans in push pull directly attached to the heatsink. --- its quite the beast.   i just can't wrap my head around risking water leaking on suhc expensive equipment, i know it most likely will never happen, but i just want worry free.


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## Tomgang (Mar 2, 2018)

In the overclockable CPU's deffently yes and infact they shut be soldered. In non oc CPU's it dosent matter as much.

Its to cheap ass in my oppinian that not even the 2000 USD I9 7980EX is soldered, but used the same cheap ass crap tim as the cheapest CPU´s. And its not like intel cant do it cause my old I7 980X as far i know is soldered.


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## cadaveca (Mar 2, 2018)

Tomgang said:


> In the overclockable CPU's deffently yes and infact they shut be soldered. In non oc CPU's it dosent matter as much.
> 
> Its to cheap ass in my oppinian that not even the 2000 USD I9 7980EX is soldered, but used the same cheap ass crap tim as the cheapest CPU´s. And its not like intel cant do it cause my old I7 980X as far i know is soldered.


980X isn't mounted to another PCB like the 7900X is, which has main PCB, then another PCB under the IHS. The complexity of soldering such a contraption is reason enough for them to not to. Typing away from my 7900X @ 4.6 GHz that barely hits 75c under AVX under a 280mm AIO... some people are making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is, and usually, its people who don't even have the item they are commenting on... go figure.  I'm pulling a bit over 300W here, without any problems.


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> 980X isn't mounted to another PCB like the 7900X is, which has main PCB, then another PCB under the IHS. The complexity of soldering such a contraption is reason enough for them to not to. Typing away from my 7900X @ 4.6 GHz that barely hits 75c under AVX under a 280mm AIO... some people are making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is, and usually, its people who don't even have the item they are commenting on... go figure.  I'm pulling a bit over 300W here, without any problems.


Thanks isn't enough... QFT (see my posts earlier).


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## R0H1T (Mar 2, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> its a 140w chip....a cheap air cooler wont do it... i believe it. Welcome to HEDT requirements.
> 
> Ive reviewed 15 different x299 motherboards using two different 7900x with an h110i cooler able to overclock each cpu to all cores 4.5 ghz before it crapped out temperature wise. Our test uses occt which also uses avx instructions.


It's still pretty bad wrt solder, maybe even worse on normal desktop chips. Compare that with AMD TIM ~


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## cadaveca (Mar 2, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> It's still pretty bad wrt solder, maybe even worse on normal desktop chips.



Yeah, and 2017 Huracan is faster than my 2017 Pacifica, but that doesn't mean it makes sense for me to drive the Huracan...

It's like using a flamethrower to kill a spider... OVERKILL.


Like look... nobody is going to claim that there are not better types of TIM materials... it's whether you NEED them or not that is the question, and many seem to not be able to seperate NEEDS from WANTS.


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## R0H1T (Mar 2, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> Yeah, and 2017 Huracan is faster than my 2017 Pacifica, but that doesn't mean it makes sense for me to drive the Huracan...
> 
> It's like using a flamethrower to kill a spider... OVERKILL.
> 
> ...


You'd think that a $350 top of the line desktop chip shouldn't come with below average TIM, but obviously Intel wouldn't want to spend that extra dollar or two to make their chips even better. I mean there's a separate line of super specialty stores they need to support, catering to the enthusiast crowd, like Silicon Lottery?


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## Tomgang (Mar 2, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> 980X isn't mounted to another PCB like the 7900X is, which has main PCB, then another PCB under the IHS. The complexity of soldering such a contraption is reason enough for them to not to. Typing away from my 7900X @ 4.6 GHz that barely hits 75c under AVX under a 280mm AIO... some people are making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is, and usually, its people who don't even have the item they are commenting on... go figure.  I'm pulling a bit over 300W here, without any problems.



Well 7900X is also only 10 cores. try oc an I9 7960X or 7980EX and se how many watts they pull. They can pretty easy chug away whit 500-600 watt at 4.6 GHz and then you need a very beefy custom water loop. A friend of mine has a I9 7980EX in a custom water loop with 4 radiators and at 4.6 GHz it still hits 75 C pretty easy.


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## cadaveca (Mar 2, 2018)

Tomgang said:


> Well 7900X is also only 10 cores. try oc an I9 7960X or 7980EX and se how many watts they pull. They can pretty easy chug away whit 500-600 watt at 4.6 GHz and then you need a very beefy custom water loop. A friend of mine has a I9 7980EX in a custom water loop with 4 radiators and at 4.6 GHz it still hits 75 C pretty easy.


I have mine 7980XE 4.6 also, draws 358 W. Cooled by a 240mm rad. You can find it in the last board review I posted... (hmm, which might not be live yet )
Again, I DO have these chips. That's why I comment. I have had every single one, and the ones I don't have now I sent to W1zz to do reviews with (which has it's own funny story too, W1zz did post about it recently  ). I had multiple 7900X.



R0H1T said:


> You'd think that a $350 top of the line desktop chip shouldn't come with below average TIM, but obviously Intel wouldn't want to spend that extra dollar or two to make their chips even better. I mean there's a separate line of super specialty stores they need to support, catering to the enthusiast crowd, like Silicon Lottery?



It's not below average. The problem with most TIMs that aren't this tooth-paste like stuff Intel uses under the IHS is that they dry out over time, but the toothpaste does not, because it's already dry. It's actually better, and more expensive, than most other pastes. Liquid metal TIM does not dry out, but has other issues.

I'll be honest.. I don't like Intel, at all. However, I can separate fact from fiction pretty easy, so I don't buy into a lot of the "popular" stuff, because I really don't care who is better or whatever.


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## mouacyk (Mar 2, 2018)

People who use these CPUs after EOL can be unpleasantly surprised.   Unlike a soldered die, the paste can become dried and cracked after repeated thermal cycles.  It obsoletes the CPU while the die is perfectly functional.   I don't see how a review site cares about this though.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 2, 2018)

mouacyk said:


> People who use these CPUs after EOL can be unpleasantly surprised.   Unlike a soldered die, the paste can become dried and cracked after repeated thermal cycles.  It obsoletes the CPU while the die is perfectly functional.   I don't see how a review site cares about this though.


Ummmmm.....who....what???


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> It's still pretty bad wrt solder, maybe even worse on normal desktop chips. Compare that with AMD TIM ~


Hey hey! Great TIM, but cant overclock past its own boost anyway! At least it runs cooler.


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## phanbuey (Mar 2, 2018)

Does anyone NEED a K series CPU?  I'm pretty sure this discussion has been purely about overclocking wants (very strong wants).


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## mouacyk (Mar 2, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> Ummmmm.....who....what???


 Long way of saying Intel accomplishes planned obsolescence on the side.


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## erocker (Mar 2, 2018)

Why are we being shown a 3 year old OC guide when we have a few years of empirical data from various review sites and have been shown many times by now what the actual difference is?

Someone bored?


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

phanbuey said:


> Does anyone NEED a K series CPU?  I'm pretty sure this discussion has been purely about overclocking wants (very strong wants).


But we can overclock them... pretty far, actually. Look at what Dave said... my posts before that as well. Again, there may be some meat left on the bone, but, to what end?


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 2, 2018)

mouacyk said:


> Long way of saying Intel accomplishes planned obsolescence on the side.


So this is for real? First I have heard of it drying out. Or of TIM being a problem anyway just because it has dried.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Mar 2, 2018)

IceShroom said:


> Intel need to use solder the cpus specially these coat more than $200. Deliding is not a feature, it is a burden.
> 
> One thing all people forgetting is "*Thermal Conductivity*".
> In heat transfer the thermal conductivity of a subtance is an intensive poperty that indicates its ability to conduct heat. It is measured in watts per meter-kelvin(W*m-1*k-1). A subtance with higher thermal contuctivity will transfer more heat that a subtance with lower thermal conductivity.
> ...




A moment before you jump off the deep end.
1) Thermal energy is conducted 3 ways; convection, conduction, and radiation.  
2) Thermal conductivity, as expressed, is conduction.  It depends upon an area of surface contact.  Thermal pastes, and solder, are designed to maximize functional area of contact.  They don't need to be great conductors, only increase surface area at a rate greater than they internally resist thermal energy transfer.  This is why materials like toothpaste actually match or beat higher quality TIM in tests.  The proof is in the interface not drying out, to maintain that heat transfer.
3) The best thermal pastes are still largely insulation.  You bang on about how important the value is, without really understanding the application.  Please, don't spread that kind of misunderstanding.  Take this as a personal request, as half understanding often leads to wholly incorrect statements.
4) Here's a moment to consider what you're saying.  If price is no object I can beat copper.  It's simple to suggest platinum and a manufacturing process of fricatively welding rods to platinum plate.  That would give us better performance, but the increase in performance doesn't match the huge increase in cost.  Likewise, soldering is a huge cost for a few degrees, which "nobody" in their consumer base (namely business, not enthusiasts) will see.  Why fix what is cheaper and demonstrably not broken?


To the other end of things.
Solder is a surface coating of liquified metals.  These metals form a mechanical bond by flowing into the surface imperfections, and creating a connection.  As the surface is being heated, and silicon isn't a great conductor, the components don't fry if soldered.  This is different when heat is applied for a long time, and the internal components have enough energy transfer to fry.

This is the problem, and why soldering is costly.  If you solder too long the chip fries, if you don't solder long enough the connection isn't made and thermal performance is poor.



Intel started using thermal paste because it's cheaper by an order of magnitude.  Assuming that you can get the IHS to slightly deform under the pressure applied by the heatsink, you wind up with an interface that very closely matches that of the die.  Why we're running into issues is that the dies and IHS are separated by too much distance.  This is likely due to regular variability in production of the dies, and IHS plates.  I'm just conjecturing here, but the push for lower prices generally leads to larger variation in quality.  Intel is likely pushing for those sweet profit margins, given the fact that AMD has actually made demonstrable market progress (whether you appreciate Ryzen or not).  Intel is always going to seek profit, and if they can cut a large cost while not negatively impacting their largest consumer base (namely business, not enthusiasts) it's a no-brainer.



If it isn't clear, I voted other.  Intel needs to better control their IHS production, or their IHS to die bonding process.  The TIM being replaced is interesting, but most people are forgetting that the very small amount of spacing from the adhesive (IHS to die) is being removed.  That doesn't sound like a lot, but radiation<convection<conduction.  I think that if Intel managed a closer bond, with their current paste, we'd see better performance.  Not solder performance, but good enough that delidding wouldn't be a thing (the risk to reward would be too low).


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## mouacyk (Mar 2, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> So this is for real? First I have heard of it drying out. Or of TIM being a problem anyway just because it has dried.


From time to time, posts pop up about a 3770K or 4790K CPU no longer behaving thermally. A delid solves the issue.


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## R-T-B (Mar 2, 2018)

mouacyk said:


> From time to time, posts pop up about a 3770K or 4790K CPU no longer behaving thermally. A delid solves the issue.



I feel this is a pretty rare occurance though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I feel this is a pretty rare occurance though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.


Exactly. No different than solder where it was 'broken' id imagine (but guessing..i know ive seen it before, lol).


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## R-T-B (Mar 2, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Exactly. No different than solder where it was 'broken' id imagine (but guessing..i know ive seen it before, lol).



I had a core 2 quad that would get pretty close to TJunction at idle.  Pretty sure that was a bad solder case.


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## mouacyk (Mar 2, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> I feel this is a pretty rare occurance though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.


Yes, few will actually post and attempt the delid. Your average reader will just accept the obsolescence and move on without making a fuss and we never hear about it.


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

Again, it does it with solder too...in fact that is one of its biggest drawbacks microcracking, etc. I think the article said as much?

*



			Conclusion
		
Click to expand...

*


> Whenever I read sentences like “What a ripoff – Intel doesn’t even solder a 300 USD CPU” or “Why does intel save 2 USD on soldering” I’m thinking
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## evernessince (Mar 2, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> So this is for real? First I have heard of it drying out. Or of TIM being a problem anyway just because it has dried.



It really depends on how much the CPU has been used.  All TIM has a limited thermal lifecycle.  Under heavy use it's about 3 years.  Solder lasts at least 10 under heavy use.  There's also a chance that the TIM can dry up and loose contact area or create bubbles in between.  After their thermal lifecycle performance is reduced as well as possible issues mentioned previously.



R-T-B said:


> I feel this is a pretty rare occurrence though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.



Yes, it is rare.  But it is less rare than solder issues.  Out of all the CPUs I've used or tested, I've had zero that had issues with solder.  You also have to remember that Intel didn't start using TIM until the 3000 series and even then I can tell you I've seen FAR more posts concerning thermal issues regarding TIM CPUs than solder.  You are talking about a 1:500 occurrence rate compared to a 1:100000.  Maybe they had more issues back in the day with soldering but I havent't seen any issue on anything within the last 10 years.

Just for metrics, I've easily tested over 2,000 CPUs certifying CPUs for resale for business clients.  It's a mix of server CPUs and consumer CPUs.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 2, 2018)

Well 5-1/2 years on my daily driver 3770k. I think it actually has better thermal performance now than when new.


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## evernessince (Mar 2, 2018)

Also, I forgot to point out that Intel used solder for their Clarkdale processors, which has a die size about half that of Coffee Lake or Skylake consumer processors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i3_microprocessors#"Clarkdale"_(MCP,_32_nm)

If Micro-cracking was not an issue with these small dies, they most certainly would not be an issue for any other Intel processor.  Micro-cracking is a bigger issue on smaller dies but you can use different metal layering for different processor lines to offset this issue.  If they knew the correct layering for small die CPUs, why not just use that on newer processors?


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## EarthDog (Mar 2, 2018)

Dont know. Im still waiting to hear an actual problem that needs to be fixed.


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## cadaveca (Mar 3, 2018)

evernessince said:


> Also, I forgot to point out that Intel used solder for their Clarkdale processors, which has a die size about half that of Coffee Lake or Skylake consumer processors
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i3_microprocessors#"Clarkdale"_(MCP,_32_nm)
> 
> If Micro-cracking was not an issue with these small dies, they most certainly would not be an issue for any other Intel processor.  Micro-cracking is a bigger issue on smaller dies but you can use different metal layering for different processor lines to offset this issue.  If they knew the correct layering for small die CPUs, why not just use that on newer processors?


The micro fissures are a result of the added layer on the IHS leaching away the gallium/indium. It's a well-documented problem with these types of solders. The larger the patch of gallium/indium, the more prone to being problematic, not the other way around.


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## GoldenX (Mar 3, 2018)

To me it should be segregated, similar to what AMD is doing. I don't care that a Celeron, Pentium o normal iX has TIM, but an unlocked K should always be soldered.


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## Solaris17 (Mar 3, 2018)

qubit said:


> especially when overclocked more than makes up for it



Id think not since

cents x CPUs = millions of dollars and

especially when overclocked more than makes up for it

Intel isnt targeting us at all and enthusiast users are literal grains of rice to the thousands of chips OEMs are ordering by the pallet. The chips run at or under TJ max during full load during testing and this checks all the boxes.

Clarification: Not biased, just thinking logical biz sense. Currently own what might be the most expensive consumer level CPU from them.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 3, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> Id think not since
> 
> *cents x CPUs = millions of dollars and*
> 
> ...


Sorry but Intel doesn't sell billions of unlocked chips, that equation doesn't make sense.

Again, Intel only sells unlocked chips in the tens of millions ~ even assuming a dollar or two per enthusiast chip the figure won't breach the 8 digit mark. The locked chips can still be their usual TIM but there's no good reason why unlocked chips should be using the same TIM, of course as *Dave* said the others dry out faster but there must be some other TIM(s) that can last their warranty period & perform better.


----------



## Solaris17 (Mar 3, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Sorry but Intel doesn't sell billions of unlocked chips, that equation doesn't make sense.
> 
> Again, Intel only sells unlocked chips in the tens of millions ~ even assuming a dollar or two per enthusiast chip the figure won't breach the 8 digit mark. The locked chips can still be their usual TIM but there's no good reason why unlocked chips should be using the same TIM, of course as *Dave* said the others dry out faster but there must be some other TIM(s) that can last their warranty period & perform better.



maybe but even so it would'nt matter in the slightest. If we go by your logic they don't even sell enough unlocked chips for it to make a difference. It also wouldnt make a ton of sense to dispute it because if soldering the IHS which they have done in the past did improve it to a point that more people wanted to bu unlocked CPUs then why did they switch away from it?

Its clear that the segment is too small for it to make a difference. Unlocked chips by nature may be over clockable but on white paper only offer increased default clocks and boost rates most of the time. Intel does not support overclocking. My argument still stands. If even unlocked CPUs hold thermal specification under load in the lab then they wont change it.

Arguing that Intel has to change it because there "perceived" target audience for unlocked chips is overclockers is a fallacy. If its too hot to OC thats not their problem.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 3, 2018)

Solaris17 said:


> maybe but even so it would'nt matter in the slightest. If we go by your logic they don't even sell enough unlocked chips for it to make a difference. It also wouldnt make a ton of sense to dispute it because if soldering the IHS which they have done in the past did improve it to a point that more people wanted to bu unlocked CPUs then why did they switch away from it?
> 
> Its clear that the segment is too small for it to make a difference. Unlocked chips by nature may be over clockable but on white paper only offer increased default clocks and boost rates most of the time. Intel does not support overclocking. My argument still stands. If even unlocked CPUs hold thermal specification under load in the lab then they wont change it.
> 
> *Arguing that Intel has to change it because there "perceived" target audience for unlocked chips is overclockers is a fallacy. If its too hot to OC thats not their problem*.


This reminds me of one particular news item ~ https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...tels-core-i7-7700-i7-7700k-processors.233018/

Also an unlocked chip is for OCers, to be precise targeting them, & that's not a logical fallacy.


----------



## cadaveca (Mar 3, 2018)

R0H1T said:


> Also an unlocked chip is for OCers, to be precise targeting them, & that's not a logical fallacy.



Actually, it kind of is. I agree with you in a way, but you have to look at the fine print, as always. This is what Intel says about overclocking:



> Overclocking your unlocked Intel® Core™ processor, RAM, and motherboard is a way to custom tune your PC. You can adjust the power, voltage, core, memory settings, and other key system values for ultimate performance. It speeds up your components—and your gameplay. It can also help with processor-intensive tasks such as image rendering and transcoding



but then fine print says:



> Altering clock frequency or voltage may damage or reduce the useful life of the processor and other system components, and may reduce system stability and performance. Product warranties may not apply if the processor is operated beyond its specifications. Check with the manufacturers of system and components for additional details.



https://www.intel.ca/content/www/ca/en/gaming/overclocking-intel-processors.html

Intel also provides a guide for overclocking.

The second item lsited says:



> 1.2 - Apply* aggressive* cooling
> Utilize a robust cooling solution which can cool the processor* well beyond the minimum processor requirement*s. Liquid cooling is ideal, and added chassis fans will further improve overclocking potential.



https://www.intel.ca/content/www/ca/en/gaming/how-to-overclock.html


So yeah... they say you need "aggressive" cooling, and liquid is ideal... and if you don't understand what "well beyond the minimum processor requirements" means, well...


So, let's look at the 8700K. Specification (minimums, mind you) calls for a 130W cooler for a 95W CPU. And if you want to overclock, they say you need cooling that is WELL BEYOND minimum, which is 130W. Well beyond. You can find the specifications for cooling in their whitepapers for the platform.

So if you aren't using watercooling, according to Intel, your cooling solution is NOT ideal. Air coolers need not apply.


----------



## R0H1T (Mar 3, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> Actually, it kind of is. I agree with you in a way, but you have to look at the fine print, as always. This is what Intel says about overclocking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The thing is even with aggressive cooling the limiting factor will always be TIM, more so with liquid cooling or the more exotic dry ice, liquid helium, LN2 et al. So you need to go *bare die or delid & replace the TIM* to get the best results, though it has to be said that's mainly for the top 10% of the enthusiast crowd.

Essentially Intel is gimping their own products, now I can't comment on the economics of it ~ as in how selling a few million unlocked K chips with better TIM affects their bottomline wrt 10x more of the locked variety they'd sell with regualr TIM. In essence this is what I want from them, it's not a necessity nor is it a deal breaker for others, but repaying the enthusiast crowd who've stood by them for the last decade goes a long way in redeeming their brand name, especially these days with the constant stream of bad PR.


----------



## RejZoR (Mar 3, 2018)

What's the point of using top of the line TIM on top when it's always that turd useless toothpaste underneath IHS making everything suck. You can do whatever you want and that TIM underneath will be the limiting factor, not what you use on top. Given they use that crap even on top of the line processors that cost strong triple digit prices is worrying and crappy. And perfectly explains why my old 5820K at 4.5GHz runs cooler than newest 14nm processors with same core count and same clocks. It's that toothpaste underneath IHS. Coz 5820K was still soldered and the new stuff isn't.

Who cares about micro cracks, chances of happening are equal to winning a lottery, but to avoid that you run an inferior product every single day. How does that make any sense? Solder the damn thing.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 3, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> So if you aren't using watercooling, according to Intel, your cooling solution is NOT ideal. Air coolers need not apply.


There are plenty of good 200w and higher air coolers that work quite well. Just in our house we use Enermax T-40 Fit and Enermax T-50A., 200w and 250w thermal capacities respectively.


----------



## las (Mar 3, 2018)

GoldenX said:


> To me it should be segregated, similar to what AMD is doing. I don't care that a Celeron, Pentium o normal iX has TIM, but an unlocked K should always be soldered.



I agree. A CPU meant for OC, should be able to OC well without needing to delid. K models should be soldered for sure.

Not many 8700K/8600K/7700K/7600K comes close to 5 GHz without delid or insane load temps, even on high-end cooling solutions.

People are delidding tho. Warrenty gone. Intel happy. If they break a CPU doing it, they simply buy a new CPU... Win/Win for Intel. Even with all the delid tools, lots of people are fucking up.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 3, 2018)

Better yet just go back to exposed dies like P3 and Athlon


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 3, 2018)

las said:


> I agree. A CPU meant for OC, should be able to OC well without needing to delid. K models should be soldered for sure.
> 
> Not many 8700K/8600K/7700K/7600K comes close to 5 GHz without delid or insane load temps, even on high-end cooling solutions.
> 
> People are delidding tho. Warrenty gone. Intel happy. If they break a CPU doing it, they simply buy a new CPU... Win/Win for Intel. Even with all the delid tools, lots of people are fucking up.


So, wait... 4.5ghz on 10c/20t or 16c/32t is not a good overclock? Thats 900 mhz over its all core boost. I believe 1.1ghz over all core boost on the other chip. 8700k are mostly 5ghz chips. Running one now not delidded on corsair h110i.


----------



## IceShroom (Mar 3, 2018)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> A moment before you jump off the deep end.
> 1) Thermal energy is conducted 3 ways; convection, conduction, and radiation.
> 2) Thermal conductivity, as expressed, is conduction.  It depends upon an area of surface contact.  Thermal pastes, and solder, are designed to maximize functional area of contact.  They don't need to be great conductors, only increase surface area at a rate greater than they internally resist thermal energy transfer.  This is why materials like toothpaste actually match or beat higher quality TIM in tests.  The proof is in the interface not drying out, to maintain that heat transfer.
> 3) The best thermal pastes are still largely insulation.  You bang on about how important the value is, without really understanding the application.  Please, don't spread that kind of misunderstanding.  Take this as a personal request, as half understanding often leads to wholly incorrect statements.
> ...


I am not spreading wrong information. Maybe you need to learn how solder and TIM works.
You may not see it but, I wrote at same size means same surface area. At same area Solder with high thermal conductivity will perform better than the best TIM, even better than liquide TIM. 
And about burning chips, that happen faster with crappy TIM than solder.(And don't give the crappy Xbox soldering(different kind of soldering) problem as example).
And about cost, i5, i7 and i9 are not cheap cpus. They are mid-high to high end cpus. According to intel fanboy intel has best foundary, that means less chip get wested. Also intel's i5 and i7 are samll cpu, which has less chance of being deffective. So how it would cost to intel to solder a cpu? I bet its negligible. Its not like intel is not making any profit.


----------



## cadaveca (Mar 3, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> There are plenty of good 200w and higher air coolers that work quite well. Just in our house we use Enermax T-40 Fit and Enermax T-50A., 200w and 250w thermal capacities respectively.


A single 120mm rad is capable of 350w -500W. 200, 250, is not ideal. That's how you get rid of temperature spiking problems... you cool the CPU to the point those spikes are well within limits.


las said:


> People are delidding tho. Warrenty gone. Intel happy. If they break a CPU doing it, they simply buy a new CPU... Win/Win for Intel. Even with all the delid tools, lots of people are fucking up.


At manufacturing time, just attaching solder to CPU can kill it, or create a hot spot because of uneven application. You do understand that attaching solder means melting metal? You get one attempt, and then you may not be able to remove the IHS ever again. A paste doesn't have that problem. Yeah, people are breaking shit with paste... imagine the added deaths from solder being present.


I simply see this as a case of people being the most selfish, self-centered pieces of crap ever. ME ME ME, DO IT MY WAY OR YOU SUCK!

Worst part of humanity, right here, acting like they know better.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 3, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> A single 120mm rad is capable of 350w -500W. 200, 250, is not ideal. That's how you get rid of temperature spiking problems... you cool the CPU to the point those spikes are well within limits.
> 
> At manufacturing time, just attaching solder to CPU can kill it, or create a hot spot because of uneven application. You do understand that attaching solder means melting metal? You get one attempt, and then you may not be able to remove the IHS ever again. A paste doesn't have that problem. Yeah, people are breaking shit with paste... imagine the added deaths from solder being present.
> 
> ...


Lol, ok, I’m guessing the final 90% of that didn’t apply to me?

First couple yes.  We’re fine with our coolers, and don’t have temp spiking.  Everything is well within control.


----------



## HTC (Mar 3, 2018)

I've never delidded a CPU but my understanding of the problem is that the TIM Intel uses is just bad VS other TIMs currently available. If intel used ... say ... noctua's TIM or MX4 under the IHS, there would be no need to delid @ all, except for those very few that use liquid metal TIMs to squeeze that last bit of performance out of the chip. As such, this whole TIMed VS soldered would be mostly moot, no?

Or is my reasoning flawed? I admit, i don't know much about this topic so i may very well be saying something totally preposterous.


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## rtwjunkie (Mar 3, 2018)

HTC said:


> I've never delidded a CPU but my understanding of the problem is that the TIM Intel uses is just bad VS other TIMs currently available. If intel used ... say ... noctua's TIM or MX4 under the IHS, there would be no need to delid @ all, except for those very few that use liquid metal TIMs to squeeze that last bit of performance out of the chip. As such, this whole TIMed VS soldered would be mostly moot, no?
> 
> Or is my reasoning flawed? I admit, i don't know much about this topic so i may very well be saying something totally preposterous.



This too is a subject of much debate.  Yes, some TIM’s are higher quality than others.  All however, really are adequate, and performance is fairly close temperature wise between them.  

So sure, some may reduce a couple of degrees more than another.  In the grand scheme of things, IMHO, it matter not at all, but is enough for people to have their favorite brands. 

To ultimately answer your question, it wouldn’t have made much real difference in the brand used inside the ihs.  Just 2-3 degrees at most IMO.


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## qubit (Mar 3, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> 8700k are mostly 5ghz chips. Running one now not delidded on corsair h110i.


Are you gonna delid it at some point then? I reckon you're hardcore enough to do it.


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## HTC (Mar 3, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> This too is a subject of much debate.  Yes, some TIM’s are higher quality than others.  All however, really are adequate, and performance is fairly close temperature wise between them.
> 
> So sure, some may reduce a couple of degrees more than another.  In the grand scheme of things, IMHO, it matter not at all, but is enough for people to have their favorite brands.
> 
> *To ultimately answer your question, it wouldn’t have made much real difference in the brand used inside the ihs.  Just 2-3 degrees at most IMO.*



Only? Since i've heard 15-20 degrees when using liquid metal (not 100% sure of this, nor if this is celsius or farenheit), i was expecting more, tbh. Not as much as liquid metal but something in the range of ... say ... 10 degrees?


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## DRDNA (Mar 3, 2018)

The delid scenario really is for the extreme overclocker and the high end laptop segment where both are worth the risks, there are even Professional Businesses that will do the CPU, GPU, VRM and with very impressive results on the laptops with high end gear in them. That means a High end laptop with NO throttling, some with desktop processors in them and desktop gpu's too.

EDIT, granted it is all stuff most every one here could do as well.


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## Vario (Mar 3, 2018)

HTC said:


> I've never delidded a CPU but my understanding of the problem is that the TIM Intel uses is just bad VS other TIMs currently available. If intel used ... say ... noctua's TIM or MX4 under the IHS, there would be no need to delid @ all, except for those very few that use liquid metal TIMs to squeeze that last bit of performance out of the chip. As such, this whole TIMed VS soldered would be mostly moot, no?
> 
> Or is my reasoning flawed? I admit, i don't know much about this topic so i may very well be saying something totally preposterous.


The TIM that intel uses is fine, the problem is the gap between the heatspreader and the die that the TIM fills.  Some chips have more gap than others.  I believe my 8600K has a really ideal minimum gap because my processor sits at 26 idle and 60 load at 4.8 Ghz.  Don't have any heat problems with it, it is a great processor.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 3, 2018)

HTC said:


> Only? Since i've heard 15-20 degrees when using liquid metal (not 100% sure of this, nor if this is celsius or farenheit), i was expecting more, tbh. Not as much as liquid metal but something in the range of ... say ... 10 degrees?


From all I have heard of liquid metal, yes, that may be an exception. Cannot personally verify tho, the huge decrease in temps.


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## EarthDog (Mar 4, 2018)

qubit said:


> Are you gonna delid it at some point then? I reckon you're hardcore enough to do it.


Nope.


----------



## hat (Mar 4, 2018)

I voted yes because even using something like MX-4 brings good improvement over their thermal gunk. However, mass production thermal paste applications are rarely good. I know someone who had a jet engine PS4 until he took it apart and re-pasted it... and we all know better paste can bring improvement of a few degrees (unless you use something extreme like coollab liquid pro/ultra), but the biggest improvements are usually credited to the better application you get doing it yourself than done in a factory that does thousands/day.


----------



## las (Mar 5, 2018)

cadaveca said:


> You get one attempt, and then you may not be able to remove the IHS ever again.



If AMD can manage, Intel should too. Ryzen temps are stable across cores and much lower during load than Intel's paste crap.

Intel has temp spiking and huge variance across cores. Last week I build a 8700K rig, during full load, Core 2 was 13C hotter than the rest. Haha



EarthDog said:


> 8700k are mostly 5ghz chips. Running one now not delidded on corsair h110i.



No they are not, many people are struggling to reach 5 stable with DECENT TEMPS on normal cooling, but even with 240mm AIO's people are closing in on 90C load, insane temps if you ask me.
Delid and temp is down to 60-70....

CFL run terribly hot, just like Kaby Lake did.


----------



## Dia01 (Mar 5, 2018)

I just delided my 7820X last night.  The thermals were just terrible going beyond 4.5 for my chip with minor increases in voltages.  For the price anyone pays for a decent main stream upwards to the HDET platform processors I think at least a better thermal interface should be used or simply solder and be done with it.  Besides, why make 'K or X' models if you were not expecting them to be overclocked?


----------



## evernessince (Mar 5, 2018)

rtwjunkie said:


> This too is a subject of much debate.  Yes, some TIM’s are higher quality than others.  All however, really are adequate, and performance is fairly close temperature wise between them.
> 
> So sure, some may reduce a couple of degrees more than another.  In the grand scheme of things, IMHO, it matter not at all, but is enough for people to have their favorite brands.
> 
> To ultimately answer your question, it wouldn’t have made much real difference in the brand used inside the ihs.  Just 2-3 degrees at most IMO.



Bad TIM under the IHS has an exponential affect on temperature.  You are adding another bottleneck preventing maximum heat transfer.  If the paste under the IHS can't effectively transfer all the heat to the IHS then in turn your paste on top will be less effective and so will your CPU cooler.  Intel's stock paste is designed with stock settings in mind.  Once you start overclocking the stock paste is very ineffective at transfering heat over the rated TDP of the processor.

There's really no need to guess at this either, there have already been plenty of people who have replaced Intel's stock paste with higher quality paste and gotten 12-18c temperature drops.  I personally got a 25c drop with liquid metal and 17c drop with GC-1.



Vario said:


> The TIM that intel uses is fine, the problem is the gap between the heatspreader and the die that the TIM fills.  Some chips have more gap than others.  I believe my 8600K has a really ideal minimum gap because my processor sits at 26 idle and 60 load at 4.8 Ghz.  Don't have any heat problems with it, it is a great processor.



Do you have anything to support this?  "I believe" isn't really objective data or a professional review.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Mar 5, 2018)

evernessince said:


> Bad TIM under the IHS has an exponential affect on temperature.  You are adding another bottleneck preventing maximum heat transfer.  If the paste under the IHS can't effectively transfer all the heat to the IHS then in turn your paste on top will be less effective and so will your CPU cooler.  Intel's stock paste is designed with stock settings in mind.  Once you start overclocking the stock paste is very ineffective at transfering heat over the rated TDP of the processor.
> 
> There's really no need to guess at this either, there have already been plenty of people who have replaced Intel's stock paste with higher quality paste and gotten 12-18c temperature drops.  I personally got a 25c drop with liquid metal and 17c drop with GC-1.
> 
> ...


Thing is, it’s not a scientific conclusion. We have no way of knowing if the better temps at replacing the TIM are due to TIM differences (of which there really are very few differences) or in fact just better application of TIM that effectively closes the gap between chip and IHS.

Even cpu interior aside, most TIM repastes which result in better temps are just as likely to be from proper application as from “better” TIM.


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

las said:


> If AMD can manage, Intel should too. Ryzen temps are stable across cores and much lower during load than Intel's paste crap.
> 
> Intel has temp spiking and huge variance across cores. Last week I build a 8700K rig, during full load, Core 2 was 13C hotter than the rest. Haha
> 
> ...


AMD really has little to do with it. Temps may be lower for more reasons than just paste, you know. 

Also, 90c is fine for these cpus. They do not throttle for another 10c. Ive also never seen a more than 20c drop. Thats being incredibly optimistic...10c-20c is the average.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 5, 2018)

it is how its applied more than the tim.. all tim is bad.. nothing is better than direct metal to metal contact.. tim is there to get rid of any air gaps.. if properly put together there should not be many air gaps..

intels mass production dollop of tim and dollop of glue and then pres together isnt that clever.. it often ends up with too much tim to fill  too much of an air gap..

also 90C isnt insanely hot for these intel chips.. its normal for the high end ones.. intel set the throttle point at 100 C.. they set it there for reason.. they think its okay.. 

4.8 seems a sweet spot.. both for kabylake and coffeelake.. 5 or just over is doable but pushing it from a temp point of view..

a relid is probably good for another 200 mhz.. but i cant be arsed the difference isnt noticable..

trog


----------



## las (Mar 5, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> AMD really has little to do with it. Temps may be lower for more reasons than just paste, you know.
> 
> Also, 90c is fine for these cpus. They do not throttle for another 10c. Ive also never seen a more than 20c drop. Thats being incredibly optimistic...10c-20c is the average.



90c is fine, lol. I prefer my builds cool and quiet. Your system probably runs twice as loud as it would have been with delid and repaste.
Also, you would be able to OC 200-400 MHz more.


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

las said:


> 90c is fine, lol. I prefer my builds cool and quiet. Your system probably runs twice as loud as it would have been with delid and repaste.
> Also, you would be able to OC 200-400 MHz more.


90C is fine according to Intel. My build is quiet. Static fan speed FTW. 

Also, 200 mhz is tops in what you will gain from delidding. Again, most delids shave off 10-20c on average (mosy a lot closer to 10c). Anything more is gravy and rare. 

Your ignorance on the subject is preceding you...


----------



## las (Mar 5, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> 90C is fine according to Intel. My build is quiet. Static fan speed FTW.
> 
> Also, 200 mhz is tops in what you will gain from delidding. Again, most delids shave off 10-20c on average (mosy a lot closer to 10c). Anything more is gravy and rare.
> 
> Your ignorance on the subject is preceding you...



Several people are running 5.3-5.5 on OCN 24/7 on normal cooling and acceptable voltages. You are hold back by the terrible paste job and gap between your IHS and die. Your system is not quiet. A cheap AIO like Corsairs are never quiet.


----------



## trog100 (Mar 5, 2018)

i recon in the end what it comes down to is a %5 gain in clock speed (lets say 4.8 to 5) is a delid worth the hassle..  i dont think so but some may do..

my system is quiet at 4.8 or 5 with no delid.. it runs near 80 C worked hard on all cores at 4.8 gig or near 90 C at 5 gig.. i choose the lower option.. 

a relid would enable me to use the 5 gig option for the same temps i now get at 4.8.. is it worth it.. ??

trog


----------



## HTC (Mar 5, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i recon in the end what it comes down to is a %5 gain in clock speed (lets say 4.8 to 5) is a delid worth the hassle..  i dont think so but some may do..
> 
> my system is quiet at 4.8 or 5 with no delid.. it runs near 80 C worked hard on all cores at 4.8 gig or near 90 C at 5 gig.. i choose the lower option..
> 
> ...



I think it would also enable the use of lower speed fan(s) on the CPU to achieve the same temps. This would provide a quieter experience which, for some, is quite preferable over max overclock.


----------



## qubit (Mar 5, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Nope.


You big softie.  Myself I'm not a fan of delidding due to the risk of wrecking my expensive new CPU.

If I was buying a CPU now, I'd get one of those that's been delidded and re-timmed (is that a word?) by the retailer that comes with a full warranty. They're usually rated at some overclocked frequency, too. There's also a fair price premium on it, but it's worth it in my opinion.


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

Haha, lol! I don't need to delid. 

Again I ask (to all), what is the difference between 5 GHz and 5.2 GHz? Or 4.7Ghz from 4.5 GHz? It isn't much. I mean with 16c/16t at 4.5 GHz, my hottest core while gaming was 59C (2 hour session). P95 is in the low 80s. This is with a simple 3x120 rad and Yate Loon fans at 800 RPM....whisper quiet!


----------



## dyonoctis (Mar 5, 2018)

I'm just curious, why exactly desktop cooler don't use a system similar to laptop to avoid over tightening of the screws, or why intel isn't just making the new socket with a simple "delid guard" ? 
A naked cpu seems to be what would make everyone happy, less cost for intel, and better temperature for enthuisast.


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

dyonoctis said:


> I'm just curious, why exactly desktop cooler don't use a system similar to laptop to avoid over tightening of the screws,


Some do...



dyonoctis said:


> or why intel isn't just making the new socket with a simple "delid guard" ?
> A naked cpu seems to be what would make everyone happy, less cost for intel, and better temperature for enthuisast.


One word for you, and its the same word to descrive why intel doesn't officially support overclocking... ready for it..........?


.........you sure..........?

Liability.


----------



## dorsetknob (Mar 5, 2018)

dyonoctis said:


> or why intel isn't just making the new socket with a simple "delid guard" ?
> A naked cpu seems to be what would make everyone happy, less cost for intel, and better temperature for enthuisast.



 to young to Remember the Multitude of threads complain/moaning
"" i Accdently cracked the  Die on my CPU (  irca  Athlon) when i attach the CPU Cooler"" 
and the smiles of those running willimite and prescot P4's at those unlucky AMD users 
Die Cracking was the Reason CPU's started wearing the Hat


----------



## trog100 (Mar 5, 2018)

a few years back a good intel  overclock meant about a %30 performance gain.. now near the end of the line its about %10... in some ways hardly worth the effort.. 

i still overclock my cpus out habit more than anything esle.. but only in the easy way.. which for me does not include a relid or a delid it really aint worth the hassle.. 

okay i dont do much video editing but i really cant tell the any difference between my current coffeelake chip and my (yet to sell on ebay) kabylake chip.. benchmarks tell me i have a %50 performance gain but apart from that i would not be able to tell one chip from the other.. he he

as for gaining an extra %5 with a relid.. hmm.. nuff said about that i recon..

the thing most folks need to do is to stop thinking of 90C as insanely hot.. once people do that the problem goes away.. 

trog


----------



## dyonoctis (Mar 5, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Some do...
> 
> One word for you, and its the same word to descrive why intel doesn't officially support overclocking... ready for it..........?
> 
> ...


I see now,  from a corporation point of view it's making sense. It's better to spend some money on tankier cpu rather than dealing with panicked customer because they "broke" the cpu.
But it's a shame, those 10- 20 °c can be a big deal when going SFF.



dorsetknob said:


> to young to Remember the Multitude of threads complain/moaning
> "" i Accdently cracked the  Die on my CPU (  irca  Athlon) when i attach the CPU Cooler""
> and the smiles of those running willimite and prescot P4's at those unlucky AMD users
> Die Cracking was the Reason CPU's started wearing the Hat


Ah yes, i wasn't lurking in tech forum in this era, nor do i had any idea what a computer looked like inside. It's looks like even the shipping of computers was a delicate matter...


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

If you are going SFF, it really isn't an ideal environment to overclock in the first place.


----------



## qubit (Mar 5, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> to young to Remember the Multitude of threads complain/moaning
> "" i Accdently cracked the  Die on my CPU (  irca  Athlon) when i attach the CPU Cooler""
> and the smiles of those running willimite and prescot P4's at those unlucky AMD users
> Die Cracking was the Reason CPU's started wearing the Hat


The die on my ancient Athlon 3200+ is ever so slightly chipped on one corner, but I was lucky and the thing carried on working perfectly, including a decent overclock.  I was real careful after that.


----------



## RejZoR (Mar 5, 2018)

My AXP 2400+ was also all chipped on the edges as I was fiddling with coolers and thermal pastes a lot. It was working fine till I sold it.


----------



## Vario (Mar 5, 2018)

evernessince said:


> Bad TIM under the IHS has an exponential affect on temperature.  You are adding another bottleneck preventing maximum heat transfer.  If the paste under the IHS can't effectively transfer all the heat to the IHS then in turn your paste on top will be less effective and so will your CPU cooler.  Intel's stock paste is designed with stock settings in mind.  Once you start overclocking the stock paste is very ineffective at transfering heat over the rated TDP of the processor.
> 
> There's really no need to guess at this either, there have already been plenty of people who have replaced Intel's stock paste with higher quality paste and gotten 12-18c temperature drops.  I personally got a 25c drop with liquid metal and 17c drop with GC-1.
> 
> ...


I believe that my CPU's above average performance is due to a lucky minimum gap.  I have the same TIM as everyone else.  And my VID is nothing special.  I am also using an air cooler and arctic silver 5, so nothing exotic to cool it either.

As far as the theory relating to the gap, that is a pretty popular idea.  You can use google and find people claiming that the chief benefit of moving from the original paste + RTV glue to delidding and using gallium on the die and superglue to reattach the lid is that the gap is narrower so the lid is closer to the die.

If you ever repaste a laptop, you will find that you need to use a copper shim to replace the original thermal pad to close the gap between the die and the heatsink. Running a thick layer of thermal paste does not work very well, you need a shim to transfer. It is a similar idea.

The problem is the black RTV adhesive that Intel uses to adhere the lid to the circuit board.  It is thick, possibly to reduce damage to the die from overclamping.  The thick glue causes the lid to be further from the die, so the thermal paste is excessively thick or even gapped and does not perform well at transferring between the die and the lid.



EarthDog said:


> Haha, lol! I don't need to delid.
> 
> Again I ask (to all), what is the difference between 5 GHz and 5.2 GHz? Or 4.7Ghz from 4.5 GHz? It isn't much. I mean with 16c/16t at 4.5 GHz, my hottest core while gaming was 59C (2 hour session). P95 is in the low 80s. This is with a simple 3x120 rad and Yate Loon fans at 800 RPM....whisper quiet!


There isn't any.  Just imaginary E-Peen.


----------



## MrGenius (Mar 5, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Also, 90c is fine for these cpus. They do not throttle for another 10c.


We've had this conversation before...

They don't "throttle". That's a totally inaccurate and misleading word to use to describe what really happens. Since it implies a reduction in speed. As in backing off the throttle in your car to reduce engine/vehicle speed. Nothing like that actually happens. They run, at whatever speed they've been set to run at, until Tj Max is exceeded and then immediately shutdown. The processor shutting itself off is not reducing its speed. You can't reduce speed to 0MHz. 0MHz is not a speed. 0MHz is the absence of speed.

Intel doesn't help matters by referring to it as "throttling". Further spreading the myth and misconceptions. But at least they include the part about the shutdown that actually happens instead.


> Tjunction Max is the maximum temperature the cores can reach before thermal throttling activates. Thermal throttling happens when the processor exceeds the maximum temperature. *The processor shuts itself off in order to prevent permanent damage.*


https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005597/processors.html


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## trog100 (Mar 5, 2018)

MrGenius said:


> We've had this conversation before...
> 
> They don't "throttle". That's a totally inaccurate and misleading word to use to describe what really happens. Since it implies a reduction in speed. As in backing off the throttle in your car to reduce engine/vehicle speed. Nothing like that actually happens. They run until Tj Max is exceeded and immediately shutdown. The processor shutting itself off is not reducing its speed. You can't reduce speed to 0MHz. 0MHz is not a speed. 0MHz is the absence of speed.
> 
> ...



i dont think so.. they run (full speed) until they hit the magic 100C.. when they hit the magic 100C they start to throttle down just like a car would if the gas pedal is eased off just a tad..

they throttle back just enough to maintain that magic 100C.. they do it core by core as well.. no more no less.. they ease off the throttle just enough to maintain that max of 100 mph.. whoops i meant that max of 100 C..  mostly they dont have to throttle down that much.. normally about 2 or 3 hundred mhz does the job..

now if the heatsink falls off or some other daft thing happens and they cant throttle back enough to maintain that magic 100C  they will shut down.. but it does require extreme circumstances for them to shut down..

in the real world full of poorly maintained PCs.. fully crudded up and operating in less than ideal environments there must be many an intel cpu running up near or at that magic 100C..

trog


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## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

MrGenius said:


> We've had this conversation before...
> 
> They don't "throttle". That's a totally inaccurate and misleading word to use to describe what really happens. Since it implies a reduction in speed. As in backing off the throttle in your car to reduce engine/vehicle speed. Nothing like that actually happens. They run, at whatever speed they've been set to run at, until Tj Max is exceeded and then immediately shutdown. The processor shutting itself off is not reducing its speed. You can't reduce speed to 0MHz. 0MHz is not a speed. 0MHz is the absence of speed.
> 
> ...


@MrGenius - We did go over this before. IIRC, we pointed out CPUs throttling (lowering clockspeed) at a set point and didnt hear from you again in that thread. The thermal shutdown point is higher.

Nobody said 0 Hz. Ever.

Also, that statement you quoted from Intel, it is two different sentences. You would think  Intel is intelligent enough to know what Thermal Throttling is and thermal shutdown. Assuming you think they have a handle on those things. The two sentences describing two different actions makes sense. 

Here is a shot of it in action...please note all thermal throttling functions in the BIOS have been set to off.



You should be able to note from both the XTU screen and the Coretemp windows the processor speed lowered as well as the voltage in order to keep temperatures below that 100C point. If I managed to get it to 110C, I would be it would shut off. But, with the AIO block on and the pump not running, it managed to drop to around 2.63GHz with voltage around .7V before I plugged it back in.

Edit: whats funny...i looked back on that conversation. I quoted you that intel passage and bolded both the throttling part and shutdown. A couple of posts later, someone else came in and quoted what Reeves did below.
Post 45 on -https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/can-pcs-overheat.237739/page-2#post-3737459

I wonder if you'll reply this time......


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## Reeves81x (Mar 5, 2018)

"Tjunction Max (TjMax) is different than the TCC Activation Temperature. TCC offset represents where the processor starts to throttle, relative to the TjMax value. Tjunction can be the same temperature as TCC if the TCC offset equal to zero."
Why can't people understand this simple paragraph from intel. TCC can be ANYTHING they choose it to be if they introduce an offset. And some oem setups have appx 20c offset. So TCC kicks in around 75-80. 
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005597/processors.html

@EarthDog most do throttle at 100c and have a 0c offset, like your setup, but for some it's not 100c some throttle pretty much anywhere between 70-90 depending on the offset. Ive seen a few "not many" desktops that i have repaired that would throttle at random temps above 70. From what I read over the years, some just do that, and when you ask mobo manufacturers why, they wont say, they inevitably link you to the link above and quote TCC activation offset. From what i can tell imho they just do it to reduce warranty claims, running 90c+ 24/7 will damage a processor as we all know, oem's use subpar bins also, cheapo oem's don't want to have to replace expensive cpu's and they don't want their products failing prematurely on the world stage, so they build in a temp buffer in the form of TCC offset. I just want people to know that the 100c magic number isn't always the magic number.


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 5, 2018)

You'll want to link where you found that passage Reeves. 

Note if it was 20C offset, I would have throttled at 80C. I started throttling at 100C. I guess Coretemp is reading/listing TJmax wrong if I am throttling at 100C (or it and realtemp are listing tcc). We know tjmax is a shutdown point. 

Unrelated to that point, I also know, and have shown, in two different threads now, throttling of the CPU  (before the abrupt shutdown described)...but many apps seem list tjmax when its really reading tcc. As when i hit those values, across multiple generations of cpus, they have always throttled with the prochot.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Mar 5, 2018)

IceShroom said:


> I am not spreading wrong information. Maybe you need to learn how solder and TIM works.
> You may not see it but, I wrote at same size means same surface area. At same area Solder with high thermal conductivity will perform better than the best TIM, even better than liquide TIM.
> And about burning chips, that happen faster with crappy TIM than solder.(And don't give the crappy Xbox soldering(different kind of soldering) problem as example).
> And about cost, i5, i7 and i9 are not cheap cpus. They are mid-high to high end cpus. According to intel fanboy intel has best foundary, that means less chip get wested. Also intel's i5 and i7 are samll cpu, which has less chance of being deffective. So how it would cost to intel to solder a cpu? I bet its negligible. Its not like intel is not making any profit.



?

I'm going to speak in what might sound condescending, but I'm going to have to make sure the words are clear.

1) The two surfaces that matter are the IHS and processor.  The processor produces heat, and the IHS dissipates it to the surrounding environment.
2) TIM could be foregone entirely if the IHS and processor were smoothed infinitely.  In effect, the surface area of contact between processor and IHS is increased with TIM.  Mathematically, a 10mm^2 processor contacts an IHS in far fewer places than two smooth surfaces, and effectively transfers heat on only a small portion of the surface.
3) Even the best TIM is an insulator compared to metals.  It's a trade-off between massively increasing contact area and providing a mild resistance to heat flow.  Check those figures again, and you'll see that thermal energy transfer, via conduction, is expressed in surface area and material thickness.   (Q/t = k*A*(T2-T1)/d.  This means a minor change to d and A (thickness of material and contact area) will quickly outstrip any minor increase in k (the thermal constant).  Thus, my recommendation to minimize d and increase A through deformation.

4) You seem to not understand costs.  Let's review.  The cost to apply a thermal paste is, at most, a precision injector and the material.  A couple of cents maybe.  Soldering requires flux, solder, heating, cooling, testing, and QC to demonstrate the process is in control.  In raw materials the cost may be minor, but Intel manufactures these parts.  It's like complaining that a banana costs more than the water and fertilizer required to grow it, despite having to travel thousands of miles and be harvested.  The lack of understanding seems to be bridging manufacturing cost with material cost.
5) Why exactly are you bringing up the Xbox?  I didn't use it as an example.  As a point of discussion it had poor thermal management, and over time the internal stresses from heating and cooling cycles caused issues.  It wasn't about poor TIM, but a design flaw of thermal management.  The technique of baking the board reseated components, and allowed minor reflow.  Replacing the TIM on it was a stop-gap, as you'll note that better thermal management (read: bigger coolers and less heat output) solved the issue in subsequent releases without replacing the TIM.  Sometimes poor designs are just poor designs.
6) For the purposes of business, Intel's largest client base, an i3 and i5 is cheap.  Allowing you that point for kicks, imagine your $200 processor suddenly costing you $250.  TIM allowed for better yields, less scrap, and a cheaper process.  Intel didn't exactly pay it back to consumers, but you'd better bet they'd charge a premium, and earn back the same margins.  Maybe you'd be willing to pay a 25% upcharge for a processor, heck the k series already asks for 10-20 USD more anyways.  I'd gladly pocket the difference and invest in a good aftermarket cooler.  Those extra 500 MHz of overclocking aren't worth the problem, as demonstrated by the miniscule percentage of delidding.  

7) Buy AMD.  It solves your problems.  They solder.  If your next response is "but AMD isn't leading performance," then go weep in a corner.  This is the real world, either speak with your wallet, or stop talking.  The way we get Intel to solder is to support AMD.  When their sales take a hit they'll listen, until then their profits are large.  Why would you invest in expensive and risky things if you're already fat and happy?


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## trog100 (Mar 6, 2018)

my coffelake chip at 5 gig.. running the furmark cpu burner 12 threads.. only one core is hitting the magic 100C.. the chip is just beginning to throttle.. not much but it is only just hitting 100 C

the last three intel chips i have had.. 4790K   7700K and now my 8700K... have all behaved in exactly the same way when they hit the magic 100 C.. 

prime 95 small blocks would have them throttling down by 300mhz or maybe 400mhz.. at no point will the chip go over 100 C.. cpu Z hits about 90 C with my chip.. gaming would be no more than 70 C..

my cooling is set to silent mode.. jet engine mode would drop the temps some but i dont run at 5 gig and dont like noisy fans..

this is very easy to reproduce.. quite why its in any doubt i havnt a clue.. 






trog


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

Lol, ive already showed it, and clearly (see thumbnails). Yours doesnt show anything trog buddy, sorry. A 3mhz variance is spread spectrum doing its thing. 

Shut off the pump and watch the magic happen.


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## trog100 (Mar 6, 2018)

i could make the magic happen more obviously by clocking at 5.1 or 5.2 or simply running prime 95 on its max heat generation setting.. in fact i just did.. the clock drops to around 4.6 gig to maintain the 100C max with prime 95 small block running..

the chip is doing the downclocking i didnt have any offset in the bios for this run.. i am now going back to 4.8 gig with a 200mhz offset which is my normal running speed..

but you and i should both know by now.. folks believe what they want to in these threads.. there aint no changing their minds.. he he

trog


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## John Naylor (Mar 6, 2018)

1.  The article is 2.5 years old so 1st question is relevance.

2.  There's real world temperature impacts and imagined impacts.  Prime95 and other synthetic utilities don't provide real world impacts ... only in the imaginary world for 99.97% of the population who aren't dedicating a PC to finding the next Merseene Prime.  If ypou are usoing real world apps, then test tem[ps on real wporld apps.  If ya not sire what ya might use, then use an application based stress test like RoG Real Bench

3.  In my experience, my OC limits are being determined not by temperature but by voltage limits.  Everyone has to set their own numbers based upon what they use their PC for and how importanbt it is that it run xx hours per day/ y days per week for z years with * hours of downtime.

4.  So with voltage (1.3875 in BIOS for me) being the limiting factor, at least for what we are building (1.42 max average over 10 seconds, 1.51 instantaneous spikes). I don't much care what they are using as it is not impacting anything.


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

John Naylor said:


> 1.  The article is 2.5 years old so 1st question is relevance.
> 
> 2.  There's real world temperature impacts and imagined impacts.  Prime95 and other synthetic utilities don't provide real world impacts ... only in the imaginary world for 99.97% of the population who aren't dedicating a PC to finding the next Merseene Prime.  If ypou are usoing real world apps, then test tem[ps on real wporld apps.  If ya not sire what ya might use, then use an application based stress test like RoG Real Bench
> 
> ...


1. Plenty.
2. Sure it does. For anything that uses AVX instructions... Blender is one application. PoVRay for rendering also does.
3. Its a crapshoot... but mostly temps... it does depend on the cpu though. If you artificially lower the voltage for your needs, I suppose there is a glass ceiling at that point.


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## R-T-B (Mar 6, 2018)

MrGenius said:


> Intel doesn't help matters by referring to it as "throttling". Further spreading the myth and misconceptions. But at least they include the part about the shutdown that actually happens instead.



I don't know what Intel's on, but as someone who has met TJ max, they do indeed throttle.


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## las (Mar 6, 2018)

I hope Intel fixes the issue with Ice Lake - Or AMD Ryzen will keep gaining market share as clocks go up. Intel is hitting a brick wall around 5 GHz with no delid.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> I hope Intel fixes the issue with Ice Lake - Or AMD Ryzen will keep gaining market share as clocks go up. Intel is hitting a brick wall around 5 GHz with no delid.



THE GHz WALL  has been known and talked about for some time
Both Intel and AMD  privately accept this and hence the push with more core's on Mainstream CPU's

Software writes/coders are also aware of this and also hense why New Software is generaly written and coded to use more core's
More Core's and more threads is the Future ( for the moment ). and not ever higher GHz's


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## las (Mar 6, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> THE GHz WALL  has been known and talked about for some time
> Both Intel and AMD  privately accept this and hence the push with more core's on Mainstream CPU's
> 
> Software writes/coders are also aware of this and also hense why New Software is generaly written and coded to use more core's
> More Core's and more threads is the Future ( for the moment ). and not ever higher GHz's



Most games that perform worse on Ryzen is because they prefer high clocks over many cores.

This is why high refresh rate gamers still choose Intel, but Ryzen clocks will improve over time. Ryzen at 4.5ish will be on par with Intel at 5ish in these games tho. AMD is catching up clockspeedwise AND performs better clock for clock.

Future is looking bright for AMD. Unless Ice Lake is a homerun, like Sandy Bridge was back then..


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## dorsetknob (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> Most games that perform worse on Ryzen is because they prefer high clocks over many cores.
> 
> This is why high refresh rate gamers still choose Intel, but Ryzen clocks will improve over time. Ryzen at 4.5ish will be on par with Intel at 5ish in these games tho. AMD is catching up clockspeedwise AND performs better clock for clock.


That may be true at the moment but as Desktop Core Count increases and more Software is written to use those extra core's and threads Shear GHz loses its Relevence   
and do not forget most CPU's are Sold for Desktop Productivity and not Gaming

Intel and AMD's Market is DESKTOP and not Gaming
and on the Desktop Core Count will Rule


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> AND performs better clock for clock.


Its still a few percent behind IPC. I believe what you meant to say was that it has more efficient SMT/HT than Intel. 


...but what does this have to do with solder?


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## las (Mar 6, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Its still a few percent behind IPC. I believe what you meant to say was that it has more efficient SMT/HT than Intel.
> 
> 
> ...but what does this have to do with solder?



This has everything to do with the crappy paste Intel is using. Better paste with no gap or solder would bump up clockspeeds with 200 MHz easy. Intel is tapped out, meanwhile AMD is gaining higher and higher clocks. Zen refresh should do 4.2-4-3 easy.

Ryzen is even more powerefficient. Intel needs to step up their game or lose marketshare. CFL was a panic-release.

I expect 10nm Ice Lake 8C/16T for mainstream 2H 2018.

BTW. I have delidded ~10 CPU's since Ivy Bridge came out. All delivered a HUGE temp decrease under load. Anywhere from 15c to 30c. Gaining a few hundred MHz more in the process. Up to 400 MHz more. And less system noise because of lower fans/pump RPM...


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## delshay (Mar 6, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Hasn't that link been posted in debates like a million times already?
> 
> It basically argues it's bad for small dies.  It doesn't mean it's bad for big ones like modern 6-core+ CPUs tend to be, however.
> 
> And Intel COULD be using better thermal paste, but honestly?  They have no real economic reason to do so.



If you still feel bored in hearing the same thing, I also have been working on a hybrid cooling solution for some time. Under the IHS is Liquid Metal Compound between die & IHS. But also under the IHS is "Thermal Pads".

The Thermal pads come into contact with the IHS & CPU PCB' ie it's not on the die. The die has Liquid Metal Compound. The idea here is the thermal pads spread heat across the IHS faster but also send heat though the CPU pins, dissipating the heat though the motherboard PCB.

This experiment is not fully working yet & there are problems to solve which I have partly fixed. The only differences between two identical CPUs is the weight. It's much heavier than normal.

watch this space for improvements.

Note: Not all experiments work here & some do fail.


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> This has everything to do with the crappy paste Intel is using. Better paste with no gap or solder would bump up clockspeeds with 200 MHz easy. Intel is tapped out, meanwhile AMD is gaining higher and higher clocks. Zen refresh should do 4.2-4-3 easy.
> 
> Ryzen is even more powerefficient. Intel needs to step up their game or lose marketshare. CFL was a panic-release.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we know the paste can be better, but its clearly good enough to overclock their chips quite a bit. Im sorry you are bitter a couple hundred mhz were left on the table. Even with that paste, the intel cpu overclocks more. AMD is whose clearly tapped out currently. Their cpus can get past their own xfr and like 200 mhz past their own all core boost. Intel can with their 'crappy' paste.

I dont care about power efficiency too much. Id rather have a 95w chip at 5 ghz (or 4.8 in your world) than a 65w chip locked at 4.1.  That refresh is really pushing the envelope gaining an extra 100-200 mhz, lol! I bet they wont be able to overclock much (100-200 mhz) past their xfr until Zen2 is released in 2019. 

Amd still has some work to do too. Competition is nice, but make no mistake about it, in some areas, including IPC and overclocking, they have some work to do. 



delshay said:


> watch this space for improvements.
> 
> Note: Not all experiments work here & some do fail


id start a thread of your own.


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## trog100 (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> I hope Intel fixes the issue with Ice Lake - Or AMD Ryzen will keep gaining market share as clocks go up. Intel is hitting a brick wall around 5 GHz with no delid.



intel is hitting a brick wall at around 5 gig and that is with pretty good cooling .. its a heat thing nothing else.. kind of reminds me of the old P4 days.. the chips are now end of line and clock speeds are now ramped up about as far as they can go.. they have had a good run with them though.. he he

what comes next is more cores at lower clock speeds.. which is exactly what happened ten years ago.. a safe bet cos most of the extra cores sit there doing bugger all.. it does look good in the benchmarks though..

and for what its worth my asus motherboard allows me to set my own throttle offset point in the bios.. i have never bothered using it buts the option is there.. the intel default is 100C though which makes me think 100C is safe..

trog

ps.. which goes back to what i said earlier.. a relid is good for a couple of hundred mhz extra clock speed.. its only being able to hit the magic 5 gig clock speed that makes it even worth thinking about..


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## las (Mar 6, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Amd still has some work to do too.



And so has Intel. Too many fanboys are defending their crappy pastejob tho. Accepting 90c load temps, just lol. Several reviews are showing 90c load temp on high end AIO's with no delid. After delid 300-400 MHz more and lower temp.. Ever been in OCN forum? Tons of people with same results; Lower temps (and more stable across cores), 200-400 MHz gained, a more quiet system. WIN/WIN/WIN.

My own 6700K could barely do 4.7 before delid. After delid it was a breeze and temps are lower at 5 GHz than 4.7 with lid. Bad? Yeah I would say so. Acceptable? For some it seems. Many went Ryzen because of these problems.


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

If many went ryzen because of those 'problems' as you say then they were clueless as all they got was a slower cpu by hundreds of mhz!!! If its speed they want, intel still has that crown.

....oh, but it has more cores (we cant take advantage of).

90c temps are ok. Intel says so. AMD and intel substrates are not the same!!!! Dont let your ignorance continue to precede you las!

It's amazing how you are hanging on to the inferior paste job when AMD, with solder, cant get past its own boost. I'd rather have intel's issue than AMD. At least it can be resolved with solder as opposed to an overhaul of the CPU architecture. 


Shouldn't you be tripping right about now? There are still a few brain cells that need jump started it seems. 

EDIT: Why do you still have an Intel CPU if AMD's are so great??!! Its awfully ironic to see you trumpeting AMD here, but still rocking that Intel CPU from 3 years ago.


----------



## Johan45 (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> And so has Intel. Too many fanboys are defending their crappy pastejob tho. Accepting 90c load temps, just lol. Several reviews are showing 90c load temp on high end AIO's with no delid. After delid 300-400 MHz more and lower temp.. Ever been in OCN forum? Tons of people with same results; Lower temps (and more stable across cores), 200-400 MHz gained, a more quiet system. WIN/WIN/WIN.
> 
> My own 6700K could barely do 4.7 before delid. After delid it was a breeze and temps are lower at 5 GHz than 4.7 with lid. Bad? Yeah I would say so. Acceptable? For some it seems. Many went Ryzen because of these problems.


I highly doubt people switched to AMD because of the paste that Intel uses. More likely for core count at a better price.


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## dyonoctis (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> And so has Intel. Too many fanboys are defending their crappy pastejob tho. Accepting 90c load temps, just lol. Several reviews are showing 90c load temp on high end AIO's with no delid. After delid 300-400 MHz more and lower temp.. Ever been in OCN forum? Tons of people with same results; Lower temps (and more stable across cores), 200-400 MHz gained, more quiet system.
> 
> My own 6700K could barely do 4.7 before delid. After delid it was a breeze and temps are lower at 5 GHz than 4.7 with lid. Bad? Yeah I would say so. Acceptable? For some it seems.


Intel the kind of company that will tell you to not overclock your K cpu if it get too hot. I doubt that they'll ever see this as something to actively work on.

And yhea, Before coffe lake AMD was just so much better for the price when you needed core count.
But now the 8700 got clock so high that it's more or less even with a 1700x in those task, while being way faster  in single thread. The price is where AMD ultimately win if you need multithread.


----------



## las (Mar 6, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> 90c temps are ok. Intel says so.



Intel says so, because their garbage TIM is making their CPU's hot. I'd never accept such high load temps, driving all fans up and heating internals.

Why are you mad?  Relax dude

How long before Ryzen 7 is beating 6c CFL in games?

Ryzen 5 1600/1600X is already beating i5-7600/i5-7600K in many AAA games, because of too low core count.


----------



## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> Intel says so, because their garbage TIM is making their CPU's hot. I'd never accept such high load temps, driving all fans up and heating internals.
> 
> Why are you mad?


What you accept and what they deem acceptable are, quite obviously, two different things. no offense, I'm going with the guy who made the CPUs telling me what is an acceptable range, versus some random forum member and what he thinks is 'acceptable'. Not to mention, those high temps are only seen during stress testing for all intents and purposes. 

Again, I am whisper silent here with a stock chip running a static fan speed of 800RPM on my 3x120 radiator. A stock 16c/32t chip running at 4.5GHz. I'm literally in the upper 50's when gaming. The 8700K I use for reviews sits under a Corsair 2x120mm AIO and hits 5 GHz without a delid. Its a quiet as can be unless I am stress testing with AVX, when the fans ramp up. Again, that can be changed as well.


Mad? LOL, you got me all wrong. I am not mad in the least. Honestly, its comical for me to sit back here and read your posts. The straw man arguments are getting quite ridiculous at this point.


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## las (Mar 6, 2018)

What pump are you using? Corsair AIO pumps are hardly considered silent?!

You just sound mad, that's all


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

What pump am I using on an AIO? LOL, the one that comes with it obviously. Again, it makes noise as does every other setup, and it ramps up by default like every other setup. But when I am running games for review, its no louder than anything else sitting in this room (which was also made for quiet, hence the Yate Loon Fans and low RPM on the daily driver). The same AIO will ramp up proportionately with an AMD CPU as well, don't forget. They run by temperature, not by power use.


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## las (Mar 6, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> What pump am I using on an AIO? LOL, the one that comes with it obviously



Yeah, then it's not what I would consider silent. Far from it.

Yep they run by temp and Intel cpu's run hotter which means more RPM on pump. Cheap low-end pump struggling = Noisy.

You can replace fans all you want, but the loudest part of those cheap AIO's are the pump.

Yate Loon fans are pretty much as low end as it gets

I prefer my D5 vario


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

This back and forth is useless. Clearly your intent here is to be declarative and nothing will stop you from getting what you want to say out, even if it based on nothing. Enjoy your Intel CPU while you are reaching around juggling AMD in the other hand. 

Cheers.


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## qubit (Mar 6, 2018)

Just pause it there for a minute lads, I'm off to get another giant bucket of popcorn!


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## EarthDog (Mar 6, 2018)

I'm done... this kid is off his rocker.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 6, 2018)

@las
Over several threads you seem to be trying to "pick a fight "
suggest you dial it back or try those tactics with a few of our Mods
I will Say it now before its to late
"Thank you for Participating here on the Forums"


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## qubit (Mar 6, 2018)

I think it's safe to say that the bottom line is that the Intel CPUs have the better performance and it doesn't matter how they did it. You want the best performing CPU? Go Intel. Could they work even better? Sure, but the beancounters there did their sums (cost-benefit analysis) and figured out that there was still enough performance left with the current cheaper thermal paste that it wasn't worth spending more to get that better performance. Not great for us enthusiasts, but that's how it is.

In my opinion, had AMD come out with a CPU that used a soldered die, had a better IPC and better clock rates, more cores and obliterated Intel in benchmarks, then you can bet your bottom dollar that Intel would have eeked every last ounce of performance out of their CPUs with better paste etc and likely updated their architecture to improve IPC too. But alas, that's not where we are today. It looks like Ryzen v2 will go some way to address this. We can only wait (impatiently).


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## RCoon (Mar 6, 2018)

las said:


> I prefer my D5 vario


Lowest noise level on a D5 Vario I've seen is 31 dB, and that's decoupled from the case at a very low flow rate.
Your system specs say ~20.



las said:


> Yate Loon fans are pretty much as low end as it gets


mkay we'll take your opinion as gospel despite three reviews I have to hand that say otherwise.


las said:


> Why are you mad?


This kills the crab.

In short: When will the world start posting information with citations. Tech forums require science-based evidence as opposed to "lol your fans suck. y u mad bro" - which has absolutely nothing to do with solder vs paste I might add.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 7, 2018)

hey guys I just finished my build with an 8700k last night, 3 hours of 5ghz 1.365v -2 avx and no crashes, and temps never went past 76 celsius. no delid, but i did put conductonaut on the cpu and noctua heatsink. (i was very safe, not my first rodeo with the stuff).  

my only problem is, i downclocked to 4800 mhz the entire time it was on prime95, as soon as i end prime95 it goes back up to umm 5ghz even the entire time, what exactly am I doing wrong, and how come the vcore is not staying at 1.365v, but only maxing out at 1.34v? man i suck at OC'ing... i used to be so good on sandy bridge, all this new stuff though... ugh


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## EarthDog (Mar 7, 2018)

Should have started your own thread...

Its likely the AVX offset of -2 you set. Check bios and set to zero. If that doesnt do it, try running intel xtu and look at the bottom for throttle reasons (power limit, thermal, vrm throttling), you may need to resize the area its in to see it all.

Re: vcore...probably vdrop and vdroop. LLC combats this... just know now you are stable at a load of 1.34v.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 7, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Should have started your own thread...
> 
> Its likely the AVX offset of -2 you set. Check bios and set to zero. If that doesnt do it, try running intel xtu and look at the bottom for throttle reasons (power limit, thermal, vrm throttling), you may need to resize the area its in to see it all.
> 
> Re: vcore...probably vdrop and vdroop. LLC combats this... just know now you are stable at a load of 1.34v.



Thank you senpai, I will tinker for a few more days and a make a topic if I don't get it hammered down by then.


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## evernessince (Mar 7, 2018)

Vario said:


> I believe that my CPU's above average performance is due to a lucky minimum gap.  I have the same TIM as everyone else.  And my VID is nothing special.  I am also using an air cooler and arctic silver 5, so nothing exotic to cool it either.
> 
> As far as the theory relating to the gap, that is a pretty popular idea.  You can use google and find people claiming that the chief benefit of moving from the original paste + RTV glue to delidding and using gallium on the die and superglue to reattach the lid is that the gap is narrower so the lid is closer to the die.
> 
> ...



Thermal pads are thicker than thermal paste by nature.  Using them as an example for desktop CPUs is Apples to Oranges, it simply isn't the same thing.  Don't think random people on forums counts as anything remotely considered evidence.

If it were really as simple as using super glue, don't you think Intel would have done that when a bunch of randos on the internet can?



qubit said:


> I think it's safe to say that the bottom line is that the Intel CPUs have the better performance and it doesn't matter how they did it. You want the best performing CPU? Go Intel. Could they work even better? Sure, but the beancounters there did their sums (cost-benefit analysis) and figured out that there was still enough performance left with the current cheaper thermal paste that it wasn't worth spending more to get that better performance. Not great for us enthusiasts, but that's how it is.
> 
> In my opinion, had AMD come out with a CPU that used a soldered die, had a better IPC and better clock rates, more cores and obliterated Intel in benchmarks, then you can bet your bottom dollar that Intel would have eeked every last ounce of performance out of their CPUs with better paste etc and likely updated their architecture to improve IPC too. But alas, that's not where we are today. It looks like Ryzen v2 will go some way to address this. We can only wait (impatiently).



This is pretty questionable, given that AMD's SMT implementation is superior and that they can pack more cores on a single CPU thanks to their infinity fabric.  Intel CPUs win in a single metric, single threaded performance, and loose in every other one.  Power Consumption, Price, Temps, Core density, ect.  AMD's top end CPU sells for half the price of Intel's and packs 6 more cores and  better multi-threaded performance.  Your comment is just that opinion devoid of fact.

Now get back on topic, because this thread has nothing to do with AMD vs Intel.


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## delshay (Mar 8, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Yeah, we know the paste can be better, but its clearly good enough to overclock their chips quite a bit. Im sorry you are bitter a couple hundred mhz were left on the table. Even with that paste, the intel cpu overclocks more. AMD is whose clearly tapped out currently. Their cpus can get past their own xfr and like 200 mhz past their own all core boost. Intel can with their 'crappy' paste.
> 
> I dont care about power efficiency too much. Id rather have a 95w chip at 5 ghz (or 4.8 in your world) than a 65w chip locked at 4.1.  That refresh is really pushing the envelope gaining an extra 100-200 mhz, lol! I bet they wont be able to overclock much (100-200 mhz) past their xfr until Zen2 is released in 2019.
> 
> ...



I only posted that information for the user that got bored of seeing the same boring thing over & over again. Now I am going to post another idea.

How about side contact with the IHS. ie you have a normal heatsink that have four side bars built into the heatsink. The idea here is you mount the heatsink as normal, then you use a allen key to screw tighten two of the four side bars to clamp the IHS. The idea here is you not only got contact from the top of the IHS, but also from the side. The heatsink now has a bigger contact patch with the IHS which should transfer more heat to the heatsink. In other words you are squeezing the IHS from all four sides.

I have other strange/weird modifications here, some are fully working, but I have not posted much information on them & some have never being done before, it's a first. Some of these modifications are on my main classic computer, as it works so well.


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## dorsetknob (Mar 8, 2018)

SORRY BUT THIS IDEA IS SO FUNNY AND A QUICK WAY OF BORKING A MODERN CPU



delshay said:


> How about side contact with the IHS. ie you have a normal heatsink that have four side bars built into the heatsink. The idea here is you mount the heatsink as normal, then you use a allen key to screw tighten two of the four side bar to clamp the IHS. The idea here is you not only got contact from the top of the IHS, but also from the side.



All you would do is BELL the IHS and Break the TIM Bond Resulting in a Runaway cooking CPU

PS if you want to keep posting these ideas CREATE YOUR OWN THREAD thank you


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## delshay (Mar 8, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> SORRY BUT THIS IDEA IS SO FUNNY AND A QUICK WAY OF BORKING A MODERN CPU
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do not overtighten it. Have you seen AMD IHS delidded, you are not going to bend that so easy unless you go crazy on it.

EDIT: Let me see if I can grab a screenshot of a AMD IHS delidded, it's pretty thick not easy to bend or bow.

EDIT2: Added AMD IHS


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## qubit (Mar 8, 2018)

evernessince said:


> Now get back on topic, because this thread has nothing to do with AMD vs Intel.


Cheers for telling me what to do, bud. 

I guess this gives me a second reason for not bothering to reply to the rest of your post other than to say that you're coming off as another AMD apologist.


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## dyonoctis (Mar 8, 2018)

delshay said:


> I only posted that information for the user that got bored of seeing the same boring thing over & over again. Now I am going to post another idea.
> 
> How about side contact with the IHS. ie you have a normal heatsink that have four side bars built into the heatsink. The idea here is you mount the heatsink as normal, then you use a allen key to screw tighten two of the four side bars to clamp the IHS. The idea here is you not only got contact from the top of the IHS, but also from the side. The heatsink now has a bigger contact patch with the IHS which should transfer more heat to the heatsink. In other words you are squeezing the IHS from all four sides.
> 
> I have other strange/weird modifications here, some are fully working, but I have not posted much information on them & some have never being done before, it's a first. Some of these modifications are on my main classic computer, as it works so well.


To me that sound overly complicated for a gain that would be minimal...


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## delshay (Mar 8, 2018)

dyonoctis said:


> To me that sound overly complicated for a gain that would be minimal...



It's not complicated. It will all be pre-attached to the heatsink. You mount heatsink as normal, then tighten two additional screws for clamping.

But if this all sounds too crazy I will delete posting.


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## DRDNA (Mar 8, 2018)

delshay said:


> This experiment
> 
> watch this space for improvements.
> 
> Note: Not all experiments work here & some do fail.


I love it that you are taking time to see if there is room for improvement in this area!


dyonoctis said:


> To me that sound overly complicated for a gain that would be minimal...


Well this guy seems like a real TPU-er from the old days where we ALWAYS were looking for any edge to help the overclock or the bench or the simple FPS.....glad to see still some folks like this left on TPU. delshay


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## delshay (Mar 8, 2018)

DRDNA said:


> I love it that you are taking time to see if there is room for improvement in this area!
> 
> Well this guy seems like a real TPU-er from the old days where we ALWAYS were looking for any edge to help the overclock or the bench or the simple FPS.....glad to see still some folks like this left on TPU. delshay



I like to experiment with different ways of doing things. Not the same thing over & over. I hardware mod on an old computer & if it works I then transfer it to my main computer. So my main computer is never at risk.


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## EarthDog (Mar 8, 2018)

Kudos and all, but, I guess in my computing life I'm a bit past these adventures and chasing after that last Mhz or FPS.... always cool to see though.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 8, 2018)

Since the OP cannot contain himself to keep the thread on topic.... I'm closing up shop.


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