# WINDOWS XP??? WAKE UP PEOPLE.



## Atomic77 (Jul 24, 2015)

*I Just noticed at my doctors office and some other places ive been too there are still people using windows xp.  I think its time for people to wake up and at least get as far as windows 7 or 8.1. What is your opinion on this?*


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## erocker (Jul 24, 2015)

I think if it works, it works. A business shouldn't bother wasting money on things they do not need.

Do you have a reason as to why a small office needs to "wake up" and give Microsoft more money?


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> *I Just noticed at my doctors office and some other places ive been too there are still people using windows xp.  I think its time for people to wake up and at least get as far as windows 7 or 8.1. What is your opinion on this?*


I think if it's not broke, don't fix it.   Half the atm machines on earth use XP embedded.


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## Atomic77 (Jul 24, 2015)

Well I know of one reason. Microsoft no longer supports and updates XP so there is always a risk a business using Windows XP could get hacked or have a bigger risk of viruses.


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## Toothless (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> Well I know of one reason. Microsoft no longer supports and updates XP so there is always a risk a business using Windows XP could get hacked or have a bigger risk of viruses.


Antivirus programs will have to work slightly harder? Y'know the United States Navy is still using XP, right?

I was considering on putting XP on my netbook again instead of 7, because y'know what? It works.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> Well I know of one reason. Microsoft no longer supports and updates XP so there is always a risk a business using Windows XP could get hacked or have a bigger risk of viruses.


Security Updates don't stop viruses. That's entirely in the hands of the end user.    And Hackers aren't really interested in mom and pop's 20 yr old beige desktop.

Generally companies who could attract the unwanted attention of hackers or have data  systems which need to be maintained have inhouse IT or else a managed service provider. 

That's what I do at Fujitsu. We usually do deployments every 3-4 years.


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

> Security Updates don't stop viruses. That's entirely in the hands of the end user. And Hackers aren't really interested in mom and pop's 20 yr old beige desktop.



They are interested in anything they can get a keylogger on (for gathering credit cards, any kind of personal records, etc).  That includes mom and pop's desktop and your local doctor's office.

XP embedded and POS is still supported for a tiny bit, though.  But I wouldn't use XP pro/home on anything connected to a network.

One can hope the machine you saw was heavily firewalled and/or not online.  It was probably an embedded or point of sale edition of XP, however, which still has a little support left.


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## Atomic77 (Jul 24, 2015)

Ok you all have a good point so I guess Ill just leave this topic at that.


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> Ok you all have a good point so I guess Ill just leave this topic at that.



I wouldn't assume they are correct so fast.  The security at some small medical establishments to even as high up as government is absolutely atrocious.  There's a reason identity theft is always in the news.

You can HOPE they know what they are doing, but...  I wouldn't count on it.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> They are interested in anything they can get a keylogger on (for gathering credit cards, any kind of personal records, etc).  That includes mom and pop's desktop and your local doctor's office.
> 
> XP embedded and POS is still supported for a tiny bit, though.  But I wouldn't use XP pro/home on anything connected to a network.
> 
> One can hope the machine you saw was heavily firewalled and/or not online.  It was probably an embedded or point of sale edition of XP, however, which still has a little support left.


Hackers don't spread viruses, clicking on dodgy porn sites and p2P files spread viruses.  Hackers take over machines or servers with sensitive data..  
Which is why I just said anyone who could attract the interest of such parties has a managed services provider or in-house system administration.


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## Blue-Knight (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> What is your opinion on this?


People (still) have the right to use what they want.

LOL!


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## micropage7 (Jul 24, 2015)

actually for OS that run more than 10 years, its pretty solid
what you cant do with XP? usb, SLI/crossfire. sata support

i think xp still rock for more years


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> Well I know of one reason. Microsoft no longer supports and updates XP so there is always a risk a business using Windows XP could get hacked or have a bigger risk of viruses.


They're domain systems which means there is a mainframe filtering internet and program access.  Nothing gets installed unless an administrator approves it.  An XP user on a domain is usually more secure than a Windows 8.1 system with internet access and administrator account in your average home.


A lot of them are slowly switching to Windows 7.  A lot of domains have no intent to change to Windows 10 any time soon (if at all).


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## qubit (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> Well I know of one reason. Microsoft no longer supports and updates XP so there is always a risk a business using Windows XP could get hacked or have a bigger risk of viruses.


^^This. You've actually made a very good point and shouldn't give up.

Sure, the system is still working, but the world is changing and evolving around it, especially security threats. As there are no more security patches for XP, this is a timebomb waiting to go off.

XP should only be used now where there's an absolute need for it, niche uses only, basically.


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## Steevo (Jul 24, 2015)

Old doesn't mean less secure, it many times means more secure, but less available to provide multiple services.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

Did someone just ask me about my avatar? Maybe I'm seeing things....lol


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## Kursah (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> *I Just noticed at my doctors office and some other places ive been too there are still people using windows xp.  I think its time for people to wake up and at least get as far as windows 7 or 8.1. What is your opinion on this?*



Most of our medical office customers (medium to large ones) utilize XP still for their exam-room PC's because of software compatibility or not wanting to spend the $10,000's that it can cost to upgrade the license and upgrade the infrastructure to support it. Honestly with decent AVAM, it is still usable but definitely long in the tooth for anyone outside of the medical or industrial/manufacturing arenas imho. Other places I've seen still use it because of the cost of newer equipment when current equipment is still affordable to service but requiring legacy software. Upgrades have to make dollars and sense to many companies...at least in this region that's what I've seen. Just my two cents. XP is still useful, I don't prefer it by any means...


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Hackers don't spread viruses, clicking on dodgy porn sites and p2P files spread viruses.  Hackers take over machines or servers with sensitive data..
> Which is why I just said anyone who could attract the interest of such parties has a managed services provider or in-house system administration.



Potatoe potato.  It's all programers with bad intentions, and the bottom lime is having an up to date OS helps on all fronts.



Steevo said:


> Old doesn't mean less secure, it many times means more secure, but less available to provide multiple services.



Old does tend to mean time has worn on it.  What I mean by this is that time has been passing and people have discovered the vulnerabilities that exist.


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## Disparia (Jul 24, 2015)

This doesn't apply to_ every _industry but keep up or face larger problems in the future. I've been contracted at one place for over 4 years now and have seen what can happen to a company without a proactive view on technology. They're much better off now with the new guy in charge and will continue to improve but it would have saved them so much time and money if it had happened sooner. I've also been with market leaders -- the strongest department in each one? IT.


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## Jetster (Jul 24, 2015)

Stop with the all caps


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## SK-1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Maybe Doctors just cant afford such a fancy os.


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## puma99dk| (Jul 24, 2015)

Problem is many companies uses outdated programs that can't run in Windows 7, even XP Mode don't always work it needs a real XP computer or a virtuel one to work, but that costs money so they just use it every day until the computer dies and u can't find spare parts and the new computers don't support XP than they have to use money on upgrading everything.


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## Mussels (Jul 24, 2015)

my work uses XP. to upgrade to a newer OS would require a dozen new PC's.


no security risk, as apart from one server they're all kept offline.


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## ZeDestructor (Jul 24, 2015)

Steevo said:


> Old doesn't mean less secure, it many times means more secure, but less available to provide multiple services.





R-T-B said:


> Potatoe potato.  It's all programers with bad intentions, and the bottom lime is having an up to date OS helps on all fronts.
> 
> Old does tend to mean time has worn on it.  What I mean by this is that time has been passing and people have discovered the vulnerabilities that exist.



Aquite the contrary Steevo: unlike something like a house or a car, old software (especially widely-used, decent-quality stuff like Windows) are usually more secure than the versions they replace. In the case of XP, a lot of assumptions that made perfect sense in the late 90s to the mid 2000s stopped holding, the most obvious ones being that running with full admin permissions is bad, and that drivers as modeled in Windows NT at the time, were hoplessly broken well and truly beyond repair and sanity.

The result was Vista (a perfectly fine OS if you run in on good hardware), and a side effect of Vista making very deep, extensive architectural changes to how Windows designed, modeled and enforced it's OS and security principles meant that both a lot of stuff broke overnight (especially drivers) and it needed a much beefier machine that what people ran XP on (admittedly some of it is just more features and shine, not OS-related stuff, but I digress).

In recent times, XP has become effectively unpactchable to Mixrosoft, which is why they are charging huge amounts of money for an extra maximum of 3 years from end of support, regardless of the amount of money shoved at them.

I can also point to open-source projects, like OpenSSL, where most of the releases are about fixing some security hole or another, meaning the new version is by definition more secure because an existing security risk has been removed.



Kursah said:


> Most of our medical office customers (medium to large ones) utilize XP still for their exam-room PC's because of software compatibility or not wanting to spend the $10,000's that it can cost to upgrade the license and upgrade the infrastructure to support it. Honestly with decent AVAM, it is still usable but definitely long in the tooth for anyone outside of the medical or industrial/manufacturing arenas imho. Other places I've seen still use it because of the cost of newer equipment when current equipment is still affordable to service but requiring legacy software. Upgrades have to make dollars and sense to many companies...at least in this region that's what I've seen. Just my two cents. XP is still useful, I don't prefer it by any means...



Yup. Budget and availablity is the issue, and more often than not all together: you're not gonna replace a million dollar microscope because it's interfacing PC is on XP or older, nor will you spend the thousands of dollars getting their devs to update the software. Instead, you work around it by isolating that machine and locking it down so hard it becomes an appliance instead.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Potatoe potato.  It's all programers with bad intentions, and the bottom lime is having an up to date OS helps on all fronts.


Instead of repeating someone else's words I'm just going to reply with this quote from Ford  ..



FordGT90Concept said:


> *They're domain systems which means there is a mainframe filtering internet and program access.  Nothing gets installed unless an administrator approves it.  An XP user on a domain is usually more secure than a Windows 8.1 system with internet access and administrator account in your average home.*
> 
> 
> A lot of them are slowly switching to Windows 7.  A lot of domains have no intent to change to Windows 10 any time soon (if at all).


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Instead of repeating someone else's words I'm just going to reply with this quote from Ford  ..



That's assuming privilege escalation can't be done in XP.  Newsflash, it can, and isn't being fixed anymore.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> That's assuming privilege escalation can't be done in XP.  Newsflash, it can, and isn't being fixed anymore.


Lol OK then, sure.   Lets assume you somehow teleported into this building and managed to sit down at a client machine without anyone noticing.
I'll make it easier and  give you the logon ID and password for the AD domain. Now what do you do?  How does this Privilege Escalation take place?

Remember you have no user rights other than what's been assigned by the administrator.  That means next to none.  Normally meaning you can't access anything not on the desktop.


This is going to go nowhere.. and there's really no point dragging it on. 

The bottom line is if the doctor mentioned in the OP has a machine stolen or the secretary loads gayhorse porn onto it , so what? Maybe he doesn't care.  And if he does, that's his  own fault.   Next time secure the machine.  But it's not our problem. 
You wouldn't visit your neighbour and insist he installs a security alarm because the house may get burgled.  So why care how a company runs it's own IT affairs.......


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Lol OK then, sure.   Lets assume you somehow teleported into this building and managed to sit down at a client machine without anyone noticing.
> I'll make it easier and  give you the logon ID and password for the AD domain. Now what do you do?  How does this Privilege Escalation take place?
> 
> Remember you have no user rights other than what's been assigned by the administrator.  That means next to none.  Normally meaning you can't access anything not on the desktop.
> ...



http://www.cs.du.edu/~ramki/courses/security/forensics/notes/XP Privilege Escalation.pdf

You really don't understand the concept of "security vulnerable, unpatched OS" do you?

Priviledge escalation means normal user to admin.  You of course need an account first, but there are many ways of getting backdoor access to XP with all it's unpatched services.  I am privy to none of them (not my jobm the above is from a google search), and so can't elaborate, but I was on the reverse end of an entire company that I tried to bail out due to it's 2k3 controller being compromised as well as it's entire network of machines via this route.

Yes, you could argue the IT department was incompetent...  and you'd be right.  After all, they were running XP a year after it's service date EOL'd for no reason other than to save money.

In the end, their ticket records (this was a theater, the old school kind with real actors) were crypto sealed by a crypto locker variant, and being unable or unwilling to pay, they eventually lost them, resulting in a large mess that ended in their dissolution.

The only thing I was able to determine?  This the whole thing orginated from the ticketing computer and somethng was ran to start the process on the remote desktop ticket accountant (which by the way, is a limited account):



> You wouldn't visit your neighbour and insist he installs a security alarm because the house may get burgled. So why care how a company runs it's own IT affairs.......



It becomes EVERYONES business when identity theft is at the level it's at, and a business is handling personal records.  This is not a coincidence.


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## Batou1986 (Jul 24, 2015)

Mussels said:


> no security risk, as apart from one server they're all kept offline.


This is really the problem as a lot of these company's do not keep these machines offline, see http://www.networkworld.com/article...es-exploited-windows-xp-flaw-report-says.html

The worst offenders are big company's that can actually afford to update to a secure os.
Using an XP machine to run old software or hardware like a plotter for example is fine, in an instance where peoples personal and financial information that are involved the "well it works/ I don't have the money" excuse don't fly.


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## erixx (Jul 24, 2015)

I just come from a flight to Suisse aka Helvetic Confederation, and at Zurich airport all terminals use XP. A hyperrich country.

Consider this: big part of PC park are dumb terminals or simple environment, and not all PC connect to internet, many only intranet. So, we, tech-enthusiasts, are a tiny minority in a small segment of the market!


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## micropage7 (Jul 24, 2015)

Mussels said:


> my work uses XP. to upgrade to a newer OS would require a dozen new PC's.
> 
> 
> no security risk, as apart from one server they're all kept offline.



yeah, in my place likely the same, the newer os is just the brand new pc, most of them still run XP


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Of course if you aren't wired to the internet, the rules change entirely.  I will concede that point as it's perfectly valid.


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## GreiverBlade (Jul 24, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Of course if you aren't wired to the internet, the rules change entirely.  I will concede that point as it's perfectly valid.


using XP here on some computer ... hooked on internet ... oh god i am vulnera.... wait ... i never got anything and my AV DB is up to date ... i guess it's all about user behavior ... 
well i also have a W7Pro and a W8.1Pro alongside my XP retro rigs



erixx said:


> I just come from a flight to Suisse aka Helvetic Confederation, and at Zurich airport all terminals use XP. *A hyperrich country*.


i am SWISS ... and it's a freaking huge CLICHÉ, oh well we handle the global monetary crysis a bit better, tho i work in tourisme : way less people than before and also even the confédération need to do budget cuts and other things. (tho i doubt XP is one of them ....)


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## micropage7 (Jul 24, 2015)

GreiverBlade said:


> using XP here on some computer ... hooked on internet ... oh god i am vulnera.... wait ... i never got anything and my AV DB is up to date


yeah, behavior is important
and antivirus as backup


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## xorbe (Jul 24, 2015)

Even if they are not directly online, someone hacks into the gateway machine, then it's all over for the reachable XP boxes.


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## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

GreiverBlade said:


> using XP here on some computer ... hooked on internet ... oh god i am vulnera.... wait ... i never got anything and my AV DB is up to date ... i guess it's all about user behavior



Yep, it is by and large, but you can't rely on that in an office environment.  People can, will, and do install the latest exploits disguised as a screensaver full of puppies...  And on xp what's scary is they often don't even need admin rights to compromise you.


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## Ahhzz (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> *I Just noticed at my doctors office and some other places ive been too there are still people using windows xp.  I think its time for people to wake up and at least get as far as windows 7 or 8.1. What is your opinion on this?*


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## Jatheon (Jul 24, 2015)

They are not ready to update themselves. I don't think they don't have enough powerful machines to run Win7.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 24, 2015)

A doctor's office should know better. I would hate to be slapped with those massive fines because somebody thought upgrading from XP to Windows 7 was too much of a hassle. I am sure whoever their IT support contractor is tried their hardest.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

Hmmm I haven't used an AV in years, nor has anyone in my family.....should I  worry?


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## azngreentea01 (Jul 24, 2015)

If you work in a big industry that started a long time ago, example your doctor office. The software they are running is very old and hard to support on newer version of windows. A lot of work place still using windows XP and most of them are still using old internet explorer because the software was built on it. 

The cost of the software  its  in millions of dollars, you might not see it but cost a lot even for old software that still running on windows XP, because it does the job that people needed.

Also, Migrating to new version of windows is risky. There is a lot of thing i might not explain all, but there are a lot of problems, it not easy as you think.


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## Nosada (Jul 24, 2015)

This discussion is painful to read mere days after Microsoft patched a horrible hole in an Adobe font driver that allowed full control of a machine after simply viewing a small piece of text using said font in a pdf or on a webpage.

The idea that you are somehow immune to viruses because you are on a Mac, have an AV or dont browse for porn, needs to die a swift death. Common sense and sensible browsing habits are part of the solution, for sure, but they are not alone. An up-to-date OS and a reasonable AV are just as important.

By the way: Yes, XP has this weakness, and no, it wont be patched.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 24, 2015)

So, the simplest answer that I've ever come up with is that if it isn't broken it doesn't need fixing.

Dentists and doctors usually utilize substantial databases to log their patients information.  As a lot of those DB access programs are custom built, they've also got a myriad of structures and stored data.  Translating that data from an ancient database, into something a new one could read, is often a time consuming process.  As time equals money, you've got the hardware investment, software investment, inconvenience during switch-over, and insane cost of a specialist which all adds to an insane expenditure to fix what currently works.

Likewise, let's look at manufacturing.  Surprisingly enough, Allen Bradley currently sells hardware which only connects to computers via serial port, and runs off of software which is only compatible with windows XP.  A several hundred dollar controller, produced in 2015, can only be accessed via a port that was superseded by USB a decade ago, on and OS that was EOLed last year.  Consider that for just one moment.  True, there are other PLC manufacturers that are less idiotic, but AB has one of the largest footprints and the most frequently utilized hardware due to cost.  Despite this, every tech I've ever met basically says working with AB is an exercise in frustration.  That's a "world class" company, which requires XP still be available to do anything with their products. 



XP, connected to the internet, is a ticking time bomb.  XP, without any connection to the outside world, is the workhorse that keeps on giving.


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## Jborg (Jul 24, 2015)

My dad still uses XP on the rig in my signature....

Plain and simple: Dont fix whats not broken


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 24, 2015)

Just hit the space bar.


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## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> http://www.cs.du.edu/~ramki/courses/security/forensics/notes/XP Privilege Escalation.pdf
> 
> You really don't understand the concept of "security vulnerable, unpatched OS" do you?


 Don't try and condescend me mate.




R-T-B said:


> *Priviledge escalation means normal user to admin.  You of course need an account first,*.


 Exactly, so you have no point. 
I know what Privileged Escalation is, you apparently do not.  It's worthless unless u already have admin rights. And it won't give you access to plant a keylogger.

Users do NOT have admin rights. That's why we have administrators. I explained twice to you and so did Ford how System Administration works. Ford nailed it right on the head. 
But no you were going to hit us with keylogger through a gaping hole in security. 

I don't mind have friendly discussion but one thing which really annoys me is when someone carrys on an argument when they don't know the subject.   Why do people do that?

Nothing to see here...


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## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Hackers don't spread viruses, clicking on dodgy porn sites and p2P files spread viruses. Hackers take over machines or servers with sensitive data..



Ever hear of drive by downloads and worms?  XP is far more vulnerable to these types of attacks.  You don't have to click on something to get the virus, just the act of visiting a sight can infect the computer.  And the virus can then spread to other XP machines on the network.  A corporate hardware firewall on the internet connection won't stop this.



Blue-Knight said:


> People (still) have the right to use what they want.
> 
> LOL!



In the case of Doctor's offices, at least in the US, no they don't.  XP is not HIPAA compliant.  So they do not have the right to run it in a Doctors office.



SK-1 said:


> Maybe Doctors just cant afford such a fancy os.



Too bad.  But maybe instead of new BMWs they should be putting some money back into their clinic to protect their patient's privacy.



lilhasselhoffer said:


> Dentists and doctors usually utilize substantial databases to log their patients information. As a lot of those DB access programs are custom built, they've also got a myriad of structures and stored data. Translating that data from an ancient database, into something a new one could read, is often a time consuming process. As time equals money, you've got the hardware investment, software investment, inconvenience during switch-over, and insane cost of a specialist which all adds to an insane expenditure to fix what currently works.



That is where paying for XP extended support comes in.  They have to weight the cost of converting their software vs. the cost of paying Microsoft to continue to give them security patches for XP.  Yes, there is a program that allows companies to pay Microsoft to continue to patch XP for them, and Microsoft is still making XP security patches, they just aren't releasing them to the general public.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 24, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Ever hear of drive by downloads and worms?  XP is far more vulnerable to these types of attacks.  You con't have to click on something to get the virus, just the act of visiting a sight can infect the computer.  And the virus can then spread to other XP machines on the network.  A corporate hardware firewall on the internet connection won't stop this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Much truth. Such facts.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 24, 2015)

The two hospitals/clinics I visit are both running Windows 7.  The dentist I was just at earlier this week is also running Windows 7.


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## BUCK NASTY (Jul 24, 2015)

Lol, my company flat-out bought IBM's AS400 POS software from circa 1988. Best thing we ever did. We now tweak it in-house and it scales wonderfully across 550 branches nationwide and it's very fast.  Just cause it's old does not mean it has to be upgraded. We run Win 7 on every desktop and Citrix on some of the terminals.


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## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm pretty sad that Microsoft have f*cked all free support for Windows XP, so far one of the really best OS, as many know I work on tech support, so I have to deal with several computers of millions of people per year, Microsoft windows XP has shown to be the most compatible system with several applications, systems and also prints of most used points of sales, data base and many other applications, so I'm here missing one of the simplest and easiest platforms for all kind of people out there no matters how good they are for computers, WinXP had something for everyone,


The most liked fact: almost any PC ca run that loved os, the old rig like Petium 3, 4,  4HT, celeron and centrino humble rig with almost 512MB of ram memory can run it! well, I still have some old installers, service packs and other for giving a chance to some old computers,


unfortunately the time for another great OS Win7 is running … it’s a matter of time for  Microsoft to  decide to shut down all the support for it,


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 24, 2015)

peche said:


> unfortunately the time for another great OS Win7 is running … it’s a matter of time for  Microsoft to  decide to shut down all the support for it,


 
2019 I believe.  Its time is getting close too!  And they already ended mainstream support, so it's just security updates remaining.


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## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> 2019 I believe. Its time is getting close too! And they already ended mainstream support, so it's just security updates remaining.


well, the time to start using linux has arrive... lets start the training!


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## micropage7 (Jul 24, 2015)

peche said:


> well, the time to start using linux has arrive... lets start the training!


yeah, i like linux but sometimes it gives me headache
linux developed so well but they need simplify some aspects on their OS


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 24, 2015)

Linux is for professionals who are paid and guys who cant get laid. No woman will stay with someone who wants to willingly learn Linux for the lulz.


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## Frick (Jul 24, 2015)

Wait what am I seeing? People defending XP? Steevo saying old often = more secure? Has the forum merged with Toms Hardware or something?  (I jest, I know there are legitimate reasons for using XP)

Doesn't most bigger folks pay MS for security updates anyway?


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## Blue-Knight (Jul 24, 2015)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The dentist I was just at earlier this week is also running Windows 7.


All public schools and universities here use Linux. 



TheMailMan78 said:


> Linux is for professionals who are paid and guys who cant get laid. No woman will stay with someone who wants to willing learn Linux for the lulz.


100% ignorance. LOL!


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## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> 100% ignorance. LOL!


yes, also is strong with that one ....


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## redeye (Jul 24, 2015)

The problem is not the XP OS, it is the hardware it is running on.  it is hard or close to impossible to find new hardware to install XP. So when the computer breaks down, the problems arrive in a  tsunami size portions...

with the serious privacy issues Doctors office face... That XP computer probably only runs the appointment program...


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## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

peche said:


> I'm pretty sad that Microsoft have f*cked all free support for Windows XP, so far one of the really best OS, as many know I work on tech support, so I have to deal with several computers of millions of people per year, Microsoft windows XP has shown to be the most compatible system with several applications, systems and also prints of most used points of sales, data base and many other applications, so I'm here missing one of the simplest and easiest platforms for all kind of people out there no matters how good they are for computers, WinXP had something for everyone,
> 
> 
> The most liked fact: almost any PC ca run that loved os, the old rig like Petium 3, 4,  4HT, celeron and centrino humble rig with almost 512MB of ram memory can run it! well, I still have some old installers, service packs and other for giving a chance to some old computers,
> ...



There is no "when they decide" about it.  Microsoft sets the end of life date when the product is released.  They flat out say 10 years is all you are going to get.  They said this with XP too, but extended it multiple times to allow business to get their act together and get moved to something more modern.



rtwjunkie said:


> 2019 I believe.  Its time is getting close too!  And they already ended mainstream support, so it's just security updates remaining.



January of 2020 actually.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 24, 2015)

@newtekie1 thanks! I was trying to guesstimate the date from memory and was unable to check at the time.


----------



## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> but extended it multiple times to allow business to get their act together and get moved to something more modern.


yeah right .... 

i guess thats why they made Win Vista and Win 8 all the rest of crappy versions...


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 24, 2015)

peche said:


> yeah right ....
> 
> i guess thats why they made Win Vista and Win 8 all the rest of crappy versions...


 
Actually 8 turned into a fantastic operating system with 8.1!


----------



## CJCerny (Jul 24, 2015)

I think it's important to realize that a lot of the "new OS is gonna make my life a lot better" group think is just a result of constantly hearing that kind of talk from Microsoft (and the other offenders). In reality, there isn't that much in Win 7 or Win 10 that is new and makes me want to pay to get it. The OS is really just code to make all the hardware play nice with each other. The real fun (and/or productivity) is in the apps that you load on your PC, and the OS doesn't really play a big role in that. XP is still chugging along fine on an old machine I have. Granted, I use Firefox now and Avira in place of IE and MSE but, I wouldn't get any real bang for my buck by plunking down $100 to update to a newer OS.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> @newtekie1 thanks! I was trying to guesstimate the date from memory and was unable to check at the time.



NP, I thought it was in 2019 too, I had to look it up.



peche said:


> yeah right ....
> 
> i guess thats why they made Win Vista and Win 8 all the rest of crappy versions...



You know there was a time when people thought 2000/XP was the crappy version of Windows and there was no reason to get rid of 98SE...



rtwjunkie said:


> Actually 8 turned into a fantastic operating system with 8.1!



Vista did too with SP2, but W7 Previews were already about by the time SP2 game out, and W7 was released a couple months after SP2 game out.  So everyone was talking about W7.

In fact my Mom's computer was running Vista up until earlier this year when I replaced it with W8.1.


----------



## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> Actually 8 turned into a fantastic operating system with 8.1!


Start 8 installed?


newtekie1 said:


> You know there was a time when people thought 2000/XP was the crappy version of Windows and there was no reason to get rid of 98SE...


gooooood point ....


----------



## Basard (Jul 24, 2015)

We still have one xp machine where i work..... it's slower than hell.... not because it's xp, but because its just old... i say upgrade its hardware and it will be fine....


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 24, 2015)

@peche, yes, I've had Start8 since W8.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Exactly, so you have no point.



Several processes run on Windows XP as network services.  Several of them have unpatched vulnerabilities.  If you really think I have no point that gaining access to a service account can't be escalated to SYSTEM level access, I'm done here.

I'm not even a hacker, and I'm willing to bet I could compromise an XP workstation that's not properly firewalled off completely within 48 hours.



> I know what Privileged Escalation is, you apparently do not. It's worthless unless u already have admin rights. And it won't give you access to plant a keylogger.



Please read that PDF again.  It works from a guest account... and I'm curious why you believe priviledge escalation requires admin rights when admin rights are already one tier below SYSTEM level rights?  That's...  really not true.  Privilege escalation is escalation of privileges you are not authorized to have, plain and simple.



> Don't try and condescend me mate.



I didn't mean that in a condescending fashion...  however you are accusing me of not knowing a subject I most certainly am well-versed in.  In addition, you are giving bad advice here if you think a networked XP machine is remotely acceptable in a doctors office.  One can hope it was offline.



peche said:


> I'm pretty sad that Microsoft have f*cked all free support for Windows XP, so far one of the really best OS, as many know I work on tech support, so I have to deal with several computers of millions of people per year, Microsoft windows XP has shown to be the most compatible system with several applications, systems and also prints of most used points of sales, data base and many other applications, so I'm here missing one of the simplest and easiest platforms for all kind of people out there no matters how good they are for computers, WinXP had something for everyone,




There isn't really much going for XP above OS/2 warp 4 from a technological perspective...  it's built on several obsolete assumptions.  At least Warp 4 had kernel level virtualization built in!  It was great in it's heyday but it really needs to be put down now.

XP is good to use in a properly firewalled VM for old apps...  as is OS/2 Warp 4 if you want to run 16-bit applications awesomely.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> All public schools and universities here use Linux.
> 
> 
> 100% ignorance. LOL!


Not ignorance. Experience. Linux sucks for 99.999999999% people who have lives and don't have time to learn commands to install a GPU driver.

Linux is for men who get paid and or for neck beards who haven't seen their penis in years and have an inferiority complex.

I see ZERO reason for your everyday user to use Linux. People still call desktop wallpapers "Screen Savers". Not the crowd that needs to learn command codes.


----------



## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Not ignorance. Experience. Linux sucks for 99.999999999% people who have lives and don't have time to learn commands to install a GPU driver.
> 
> Linux is for men who get paid and or for neck beards who haven't seen their penis in years and have an inferiority complex.
> 
> I see ZERO reason for your everyday user to use Linux. People still call desktop wallpapers "Screen Savers". Not the crowd that needs to learn command codes.


how much have you been in a cave? 
linux is not the hard wall you see fella, is used for many people around... not all geeks and geniuses are the ones who use linux, t ... 
srlsy take a watch on linex prior to bring a pointless argument fella...

Ubuntu is mostly like Mac OSX....pretty easy to use...
Regards,


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 24, 2015)

peche said:


> how much have you been in a cave?
> linux is not the hard wall you see fella, is used for many people around... not all geeks and geniuses are the ones who use linux, t ...
> srlsy take a watch on linex prior to bring a pointless argument fella...
> 
> ...


Nope.

Used a few distros. All sucked.


----------



## peche (Jul 24, 2015)

well .....


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

The usability of Linux largely depends on how much you want to do with it.  It is pretty easy to get going get basic office tasks working as well as web browsing.  But when you start doing more than that it starts to become a pain in the ass.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 24, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> But when you start doing more than that it starts to become a pain in the ass.


Give one or more example...


----------



## Easo (Jul 24, 2015)

Ok, fully isolated XP machine with no network? Sure, why not ( it most likely being quite slow, depends on the hardware and software used though).
But dont tell me that XP is at least a bit secure if it's connected to outside, or that it is useful.
I cant call it useful just because it is the only platform being able to run old software, its headache and potentional torrent of issues.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Give one or more example...



Installing and configuring a FTP server.
Installing and configuring a HTTP server.
Installing any piece of software that isn't available through the repository.

And you know what, the whole argument for Linux in this thread has been wrong from the beginning.  The argument for linux was that it some how gets support for longer than Windows.  Well, it doesn't.  Ubuntu has LTS(Long Term Support) versions.  Guess how long they are support with security patches.  5 Years...  Microsoft guarantees 10 years.  The normal non-LTS versions are only guaranteed for 1 year.  Most of the distros are the same.  The corporate versions receive longer support, but you pay for, just like you pay Microsoft, so there is no advantage.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 24, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Installing any piece of software that isn't available through the repository.




Main problem with any distro of linux is the general lack of hardware support
you can get drivers for most hardware under windows (even XP Drivers still ) but try installing that printer you bought or that webcam or that what ever piece of hardware you just bought
Linux will NEVER be Mainsrteam untill there is better hardware driver support
Most people will not be able to compile their own drivers  AND THUS the LINUX FAILURE


----------



## CJCerny (Jul 24, 2015)

Easo said:


> Ok, fully isolated XP machine with no network? Sure, why not ( it most likely being quite slow, depends on the hardware and software used though).
> But dont tell me that XP is at least a bit secure if it's connected to outside, or that it is useful.
> I cant call it useful just because it is the only platform being able to run old software, its headache and potentional torrent of issues.


 
Use Firefox and Avira or Avast and Malwarebytes with XP and your odds of being infected are still pretty low, especially if you stay away from porn. You don't spend all your time worrying about a lack of anti-lock brakes or side curtain air bags or electronic stability control when you're driving around in a 12 year old car, do you?

I guess the point is that security concerns are overblown for a typical user, and that's exactly how Microsoft wants you to think, since they get $100 from you if they succeed in convincing you that your older OS is wide open to attack. Would I want my nuclear missile launch codes on a machine that runs XP? No, of course not, but my chances of having a virus issue with XP are still pretty low as long as I'm cautious about what I do with the machine. Am I going to run XP on that machine forever? No, of course not, but replacing it isn't critical either--yet.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 24, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Installing and configuring a FTP server.
> Installing and configuring a HTTP server.
> Installing any piece of software that isn't available through the repository.


Installing a FTP or HTTP server is not a thing the average user will do but... All that can be installed on a Linux system... You just need to have the patience to read the installation instructions given by the supplier (if any). It is just not like Windows: Next >> Next >> Done! (most of the time). Pre configured packages and script can be found as well.

It can all be done and most of the time is not a pain as you mentioned as long as you read the manual.



dorsetknob said:


> Main problem with any distro of linux is the general lack of hardware support


Complain to the developers. I do not have any problems with drivers at the moment but one thing that scares most users away is the lack of eye-candy GUI to control the hardware features and/or incomplete drivers.

LOL!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Installing a FTP or HTTP server is not a thing the average user will do but... All that can be installed on a Linux system... You just need to have the patience to read the installation instructions given by the supplier (if any). It is just not like Windows: Next >> Next >> Done! (most of the time). Pre configured packages and script can be found as well.
> 
> It can all be done and most of the time is not a pain as you mentioned as long as you read the manual.
> 
> ...


Its not like Windows where you just click "next" for EVERYTHING. Thank you for making my point.

Took me six freaking hours to get the wifi to work on a system using "mint" one of the more user friendly distros.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Installing a FTP or HTTP server is not a thing the average user will do but... All that can be installed on a Linux system... You just need to have the patience to read the installation instructions given by the supplier (if any). It is just not like Windows: Next >> Next >> Done! (most of the time). Pre configured packages and script can be found as well.
> 
> It can all be done and most of the time is not a pain as you mentioned as long as you read the manual.




I never said these were things the average user will do.  The average person won't do more than get on the internet and do basic office tasks, those features are built into Ubuntu when you install it.  The point is that when you start to do anything beyond what a basic average user will do it starts to become a pain in the ass.  Running commands and scrips and editing text files to set up programs is the definition of pain in the ass, I don't care if how to do it is in the manual.

And even still, there are plenty of things the average user _will_ do that are a pain in the ass.  I'm guessing the average user would like to use WiFi.  Getting the driver installed for that Wifi card? Good f'n luck.  It might work right out of the box, or you might have to compile the drivers for your distro.  That shouldn't be to complicated for the average user, right?


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Complain to the developers. I do not have any problems with drivers at the moment but one thing that scares most users away is the lack of eye-candy GUI to control the hardware features.



well that nice new Shiny Sexy  graphics card you just bought from AMVIDA and you want the drivers to install it so you put the install disk into your pc

Where the F**K are the linux Drivers  they are not on the Install Disk

Oh you say go to the website  fine try finding them there   (small print Windows only this product has no linux support)


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 24, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Running commands and scrips and editing text files to set up programs is the definition of pain in the ass


As I said it all depends on the developer... Some will ease things for you with automated configuration, compiled binaries, some will not.



newtekie1 said:


> I don't care if how to do it is in the manual.


But you should always read the manual. Especially if you found a problem. LOL!



newtekie1 said:


> I'm guessing the average user would like to use WiFi. Getting the driver installed for that old WiFi card in the PC? Good f'n luck.





TheMailMan78 said:


> Took me six freaking hours to get the wifi to work on a system using "mint" one of the more user friendly distros.


I think wifi usually had problems because of all the proprietary stuff (not sure)... With newer versions, it worked out of the box for me. 

Not sure for ancient cards, the one I tested is from 2009.



dorsetknob said:


> Oh you say go to the website fine try finding them there (small print Windows only this product has no linux support)


As I said: Complain to the hardware maker, they are the responsible for drivers.

Check for Linux support before buying... Some will work (maybe not fully) even when the box claims "Windows only".


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 24, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its not like Windows where you just click "next" for EVERYTHING. Thank you for making my point.
> 
> Took me six freaking hours to get the wifi to work on a system using "mint" one of the more user friendly distros.



It's time to call some bullshit.


In instance one, you say people are complaining about a "free" upgrade (the thread about windows 10 automatic updates).  In instance two, you complain about taking some time to do tasks in an entirely free operating system (this thread).  In instance one you claim that we can, as power users, muck about within our registry and make updates non-automatic.  In instance two, you say spending the time to find and install drivers that work is a pain.  You are either willfully ignorant, or the dichotomy of your statements has eluded you.


I'd assume at this point there will be more bile spewing about idiocy.  I'm not asking you to justify your point, only recognize that by your own admissions you are completely blind to the truth of the situation.  Perhaps a review of your points is in order.  So we're clear, I know where I stand on the issue.  Time is time, money is money, and you have to expend one of these resources somewhere to expect to get anything back.


----------



## Atomic77 (Jul 24, 2015)

Im not a person to upgrade but I had a computer with windows vista for about 5 years then for Christmas 2014 I got my Hp Envy. But anyhow its basically common sense that most people would be on a windows 7 system or a 8.1 by now.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 24, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> But anyhow its basically common sense that most people would be on a windows 7 system or a 8.1 by now.


I tested Windows 8.1 this week (for the first time)... It is horrible. I would keep with 7 until 10 comes out. 

Edit: Just my opinion.


----------



## FireFox (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Windows 8.1


What's that?


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> I tested Windows 8.1 this week (for the first time)... It is horrible. I would keep with 7 until 10 comes out.
> 
> Edit: Just my opinion.



What didn't you like about it.

Give one or more examples...


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 24, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Check for Linux support before buying... Some will work (maybe not fully) even when the box claims "Windows only".



Yes you state the bleeding obvious  whoopie
trouble is there is fuck all usualy Available for linux  thats why people give up on that dead/dieing flightless bird and buy for windows
It works out of the "BOX"

People that is your average "Best Buy Customer" want kit that works out of the Box


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> People that is your average "Best Buy Customer" want kit that works out of the Box


But you can configure it to work "Out of the Box".

Remember, after you install Windows (from disc) it does not work out of the box... You have to install drivers, third part browsers, anti-viruses, office, and much more...

GNU/Linux can be configured with all that and it will work "Out of the Box" after 1 simple installation from disc.



newtekie1 said:


> What didn't you like about it.
> 
> Give one or more examples...


I did not like it. LOL!


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> But you can configure it to work "Out of the Box".



your taking the piss now
you install Hardware
you put disk in drive
you try to install software
you find no linux software to install its either windows or Apple

anything else for joe public consumer is not good enough they are not interested in
configure it to work "Out of the Box"

REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT JOE PUBLIC WHO IS NOT AS COMPUTER LITERATE AS MOST OF THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE ARE


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING ABOUT JOE PUBLIC WHO IS NOT AS COMPUTER LITERATE AS MOST OF THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE ARE


But the configuration part is to be done by the OEM not by Joe.

The Joe will have everything he needs to do common tasks: Office, Music, Video, Internet, Printing, CD/DVD/BD Burning, Image Retouching, Video and Audio Editing, 3D modeling and more... He will have the "Software Manager" to choose other programs and games he can install or even buy. 

Just include a detailed "User's Manual" and I guess it is more than ready for the Joe. LOL!


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

When did it go from consumer joe buying from Best buy and the lack of linux support to OEM  
""you lost track of the thread and the plot""


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> When did it go from consumer joe buying from Best buy and the lack of linux support


You are looking for support in the wrong place... Big software companies (e.g. Cyberlink, Sony, Adobe, Microsoft) will never invest in making their latest software for an operating system few people use.

Oh, but they make for Apple OS because >> They know Apple users have a lot of money even with it being a relatively small market... 

This thing of support from proprietary software makers will only change when there are more users migrating to Linux... See mobiles.

Not sure. Just random opinion. LOL!


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> You are looking for support in the wrong place



Buying hardware from "Best buy"as joe public
installing hardware
Software Support for the hardware should be on the install disk included with the purchase
It is for Windows or Apple   it is not for linux
Joe public when he buys hardware wants software supplied with his hardware SO IT WORKS
not to have to go online to try and find software and drivers that works


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Joe public when he buys hardware wants software supplied with his hardware SO IT WORKS


What you mean here is hardware controlled by software (remember the eye-candy GUI I talked about earlier?)...

And add what I said in the previous post: Big software companies (e.g. Cyberlink, Sony, Adobe, Microsoft) will never invest in making their latest software for an operating system few people use.

That includes the software shipped with drivers... I remember ZTE had their software available for both Windows and Linux on their installation modem. That is still rare though.

They were the only one I saw so far to make this. LOL!


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

Then there is NO incentive what so ever for joe public to use linex
his hardware is not supported out of the box
which is what he /she wants
linex is for techicnal enthusasts not the public

Just Ask Mike Dell how he got on with linex as an OEM (probably the only OEM that tried)



Blue-Knight said:


> What you mean here is hardware controlled by software (remember the eye-candy GUI I talked about earlier?)...



like sliders to control that sound card or graphics card settings basic controls not eye candy


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Then there is NO incentive what so ever for joe public to use linix


There are many incentives: Price, freedom, entertainment, and development of a better future are just a few.



dorsetknob said:


> his hardware is not supported out of the box


It is. 



dorsetknob said:


> linix is for techicnal enthusasts not the public


My brother has been using GNU/Linux on a netbook for 2 years without complaints... 



dorsetknob said:


> linix is for techicnal enthusasts not the public


GNU/Linux is made for everyone.

LOL!


----------



## ZeDestructor (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Just Ask Mike Dell how he got on with linex as an OEM (probably the only OEM that tried)




Working quite well actually. Their XPS13 laptops are much-loved by those of us using Linux on it since it has the full set of drivers either mainlined into the kernel or available in a single, central repository, complete with custom patches, configs, workarounds and the like.

On the less well-documented side, since those machines almost never get sold to Joe Public in Best Buy, the Dell Precision/Latitude/Optiplex, HP EliteBook/Elite Desktop, and Lenovo ThinkPad/ThinkStation support Linux extremely well either in the default configuration or after some minor speccing (Intel wifi cards in particular being the item you look for) since several years now. And yes, those are used by actual end users in a few companies. Too few, sadly. Eitherways, the end user does NOT care what it runs, since any competent sysadmin will lock those machines down tight with FDE enabled and lots of other security related stuff, meaning that it doesn't matter what the user wants to install - they get the corporate loadout and deal with it.

On the consumer/slef-managed side, I will agree that Linux is still a ways out (wifi and GPU drivers, really), but if my dad only used Linux for basic web browsing/video watching/email, Linux would be fine once I set it up, locked it down and enabled the auto-update magicks. He works using the machine though, including some very obscure, poorly-maintained, Windows-only, field-specific software, as well as an utter reliance on Office for document creation (familiarity + unoficcial standards, yay.. I prefer LaTeX myself).


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

ZeDestructor said:


> but if my dad only used Linux for basic web browsing/video watching/email, Linux would be fine once I set it up





ZeDestructor said:


> He works using the machine though, including some very obscure, poorly-maintained, Windows-only, field-specific software, as well as an utter reliance on Office for document creation


You see, people are more trapped in Windows than anything else. That is why is so hard to change.

I had to forget many Windows only programs and games I enjoyed and learn to use other, as useful as that could also run on Linux in order to make the full time transition.

No pain, no gain. LOL!


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> That includes the software shipped with drivers... I remember ZTE had their software available for both Windows and Linux on their installation modem. That is still rare though.
> 
> They were the only one I saw so far to make this. LOL!





Blue-Knight said:


> It is.



Massive self contradiction

Please tell me where on the software install disk for any Current  AMD or Nvida graphics card  are the linux drivers
So that they can be installed out of the RETAIL BOX



Blue-Knight said:


> No pain, no gain. LOL!



People dont want pain they want hardware that works out of the retail box


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Massive self contradiction


Where!? LOL!



dorsetknob said:


> Please tell me where on the software install disk for any Current AMD or Nvida graphics card are the linux drivers


They do not care to include... Do you know why? It has no interesting user base for them (yet).

Otherwise they would improve as much as they do for their Windows counter part.



dorsetknob said:


> So that they can be installed out of the RETAIL BOX


You know the included drivers are often "jurassic" to say the least. I would say included just "to work".

LOL!


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> They do not care to include... Do you know why? It has no interesting user base for them (yet).





Blue-Knight said:


> You know the included drivers are often "jurassic" to say the least. I would say included just "to work



At least they include them and the hardware works out of the box

and linux never will   because hardware is not supported by the manafactures on the Retail side  ie from in the retail box

its Cart and horse stuff

the public wont embrace linux because of lack of manufacture support
The manufacturer wont support linux because the public dont support it

Result one dead Penguin (horse ) that you cannot flog with a whip any more


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> and linux never will because hardware is not supported by the manafactures on the Retail side ie from in the retail box





dorsetknob said:


> the public wont embrace linux because of lack of manufacture support
> The manufacturer wont support linux because the public dont support it
> 
> Result one dead Penguin (horse ) that you cannot flog with a whip any more


I am done for today. Too many replies with no success.

LOL!


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I see ZERO reason for your everyday user to use Linux. People still call desktop wallpapers "Screen Savers". Not the crowd that needs to learn command codes.



And that's precisely the audience that needs to be given a locked down linux install.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> I did not like it. LOL!



Please give one or more examples of why you did not like it...:rollseyes:

Otherwise, your just saying you didn't like it without any reason why, so the statement is meaningless.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Installing and configuring a FTP server.
> Installing and configuring a HTTP server.
> Installing any piece of software that isn't available through the repository.
> 
> And you know what, the whole argument for Linux in this thread has been wrong from the beginning.  The argument for linux was that it some how gets support for longer than Windows.  Well, it doesn't.  Ubuntu has LTS(Long Term Support) versions.  Guess how long they are support with security patches.  5 Years...  Microsoft guarantees 10 years.  The normal non-LTS versions are only guaranteed for 1 year.  Most of the distros are the same.  The corporate versions receive longer support, but you pay for, just like you pay Microsoft, so there is no advantage.



Linux is a kernel...  and the linux kernel still supports frickin' Motorola processors and things so old they'd make your eyeballs burn.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Otherwise, your just saying you didn't like it without any reason why, so the statement is meaningless.


I simply cannot find words to describe how bad it is. I guess it is the same feeling I had when Ubuntu launched Unity.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 25, 2015)

running xp is tantamount to worshiping Satan while shooting up a daycare,riding a whorse while playing Death Metal at 95DB


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

newtekie1 said:


> Please give one or more examples of why you did not like it...:rollseyes:



duh it was not linux mint   reason enough for you



OneMoar said:


> running xp is tantamount to worshiping Satan while shooting up a daycare,riding a whore



OH sounds like FUN


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Oh you say go to the website  fine try finding them there   (small print Windows only this product has no linux support)



I can't think of a GPU that doesn't have linux support either from AMD or NVIDIA, or right in the kernel these days.



> running xp is tantamount to worshiping Satan while shooting up a daycare,riding a whorse



What's a whorse...  oh god that sounds bad...  

Linux can be customized to any situation.  It's biggest issue is it is usually done badly by the various distros...

that, and the fuckin' penguin logo thing is a fatass.  Never liked tux.  He doesn't LOOK fast, let me tell you.  He looks like he actually has trouble walking:


----------



## ZeDestructor (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> At least they include them and the hardware works out of the box
> 
> and linux never will   because hardware is not supported by the manafactures on the Retail side  ie from in the retail box
> 
> ...



Support is there hardware-side, mostly.. but some companies fuck up even the simplest parts of specs (I'm looking at your UEFI bootloader in particular, Toshiba - even though it works on Windows does NOT mean it complies to spec) and ruins everything for everyone else.



R-T-B said:


> Linux is a kernel...  and the linux kernel still supports frickin' Motorola processors and things so old they'd make your eyeballs burn.



Yup.. it still supports the system/360, doesn't it?


----------



## Easo (Jul 25, 2015)

I am waiting for the day when Linux fans will understand that it will never take off unless everything in it is as easy as on Windows - next, next, finish.
Average computer for average Joe - the same as majority in the world, not tech specs. Market is not made by them, but by Joe.
It doesn't matter what you can do with it, it doesnt matter what is written on manual, it has to work out of the box, in 99% cases, simple as that.
But it doesn't, not even Ubuntu.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 25, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> I can't think of a GPU that doesn't have linux support either from AMD or NVIDIA, or right in the kernel these days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think one part centar and one part cheap hooker in her 40's


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

Heck, it's filesystem section is fun.  Want to install linux with an HPFS root (OS/2's default file system)?  Sure!  You can do that!

It's dumb as hell, but that's linux's biggest issue.  It gives you the freedom to be a retard without holding your hand and saying "that's a bad idea timmy!"



> I am waiting for the day when Linux fans will understand that it will never take off unless everything in it is as easy as on Windows - next, next, finish.



It's already beaten windows in the server market, where it belongs in force, IMO.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)




----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


>



They still look more agile than Tux.



OneMoar said:


> Think one part centar and one part cheap hooker in her 40's




Damnit OneMoar stop sending me pictures.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 25, 2015)

also best command ever
dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda bs=4k


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 25, 2015)

my eyes my eyes i wanna be blind damm you @OneMoar

I'm going to have nightmares now


----------



## ZeDestructor (Jul 25, 2015)

Easo said:


> I am waiting for the day when Linux fans will understand that it will never take off unless everything in it is as easy as on Windows - next, next, finish.
> Average computer for average Joe - the same as majority in the world, not tech specs. Market is not made by them, but by Joe.
> It doesn't matter what you can do with it, it doesnt matter what is written on manual, it has to work out of the box, in 99% cases, simple as that.
> But it doesn't, not even Ubuntu.



Installing common software on various distros:

Archlinux: sudo pacman -S <name of soiftware>
Debian/Ubuntu: sudo apt-get install <name of software>
Suse: sudo zypper install <name of software>

Or use one of the numerous GUIs sitting on top of the underlying package manager (complete with search! Though even the commandline version have search functionality).

Android: go to Google Play Store, Amazon Market or something else, find thing, press button, thing is installed sometime later.
iOS: open iTunes, find thing, press button, thing is installed sometime later.

Menawhile, in Windows:


Google software
Find non-malware link
Find download section
Find download
Click correct download button
Try n times until successful downalod (where n >= 1)
Install software

Then you have system and software updates:

On Linuxes:

Archlinux: sudo pacman -Syu
Debian/Ubuntu: sudo apt-get distupgarde
Suse: sudo zypper upgrade

Or use one of the numerous GUI tools, again, which will come with a nice little popup when it finds updates too.

Android: click popup in notification center (if not auto-updating), press "Update All" button, some time later everything is up to date. Also applies to firmware/OS updates.
iOS: similar to Android I assume.. I have not personally used an iOS device long enough to know it' s app/OS update UI.

On Windows:

Run Windows Update once
Install 20 updates

Run it again, finds more updates
Install these never seen before updates

Repeat steps 3 and 4 until no more windows updates
Update software that isn' t in Windows Update
Repeat step 6 until all software is updated
I' m sorry, how is Windows easy again? Sure, this is a little extreme (the retry DL n times until successful, but it happens regularly enough on slow connections), but both are real, actual experiences I have semi regularly.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

ZeDestructor said:


> I' m sorry, how is Windows easy again?


It is not that it is easier, people are just used to it.

LOL!


----------



## ZeDestructor (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> It is not that it is easier, people are just used to it.
> 
> LOL!



Then Easo doesn't get to use the easier argument, he gets to use the familiarity argument, which we can then call out as being utter and complete horseshit considering we've had good, reliable package managers for at least 10 years now.

Oh, and I' m being nice and not even mentioning package signing here.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> my eyes my eyes i wanna be blind damm you @OneMoar
> 
> I'm going to have nightmares now



I had the NSFW version...  trust me, it's worse.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 25, 2015)

linux: installing software
1. run package manager
2. attempt to deciper what package corresponds to what software
3. attempt to install said software, wait for it to install 20 dependencys
4. proceed to fix breakage caused by said dependencys
5. realize package maintainer is a moron, and curse him out in a email
6. give up and boot into windows
  linux upgrading:
1. steps 1 though 3 from the above
2. reboot:
3. spend 45M figuring out why xorg won't start
4. realise that every package on the system is trashed because the upgrade  script written by some retard botched every package in the system
5. format and reinstall from a .iso
6. watch gpart completely fuckup every boot-able partition in the system
7. give up and reinstall windows


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 25, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> It's time to call some bullshit.
> 
> 
> In instance one, you say people are complaining about a "free" upgrade (the thread about windows 10 automatic updates).  In instance two, you complain about taking some time to do tasks in an entirely free operating system (this thread).  In instance one you claim that we can, as power users, muck about within our registry and make updates non-automatic.  In instance two, you say spending the time to find and install drivers that work is a pain.  You are either willfully ignorant, or the dichotomy of your statements has eluded you.
> ...


Its actually quit simple. You are calling BS on two points to two different subjects that have only some shared traits.

Ill itemize because that's what I like to do when making my points.

1. People are complaining about a free upgrade that is non mandatory and unnecessary. Their biggest complaint is that it will have automatic updates which at this time we don't know what exactly they are. They could just be the recommended security updates. The complaint isn't about its (W10) usability. Its friendly user interface or anything else. Its all about a unreasonable fear of big brother watching their porn habits. Diver update issue isn't even reasonable to concern. So I figured, as always there will be a *SIMPLE* work around *IF* there is even an issue. Chances are there will even be an option on install to turn some things off. People who have been running Windows 10 for months haven't been complaining or there would already be massive blow back.

2. With all the unreasonable fear surrounding W10 at this point people are actually mentioning another FREE alternative Linux. Nothing is simple in Linux without spending hours reading manuals and browsing master race neck beard forums. A simple task such as installing a new driver in Linux could take HOURS if its even possible. My point to this was yes its free but, figuring out a simple workaround for a perceived, subjective windows 10 flaw is FAR more easy than say learning an entirely new OS and coding.

Bottom line is MS doesn't give a crap about the maybe .00001% of its market that fear mandatory updates to its new free non-mandatory OS. A *SIMPLE* work around for a *SINGLE* issue will be solved in no time. Linux even though its free is difficult. LOTS of tasks even more somewhat savvy users are damn near impossible to figure out with any real confidence. It sucks and doesn't support crap. Is that subjective? Of course but, Ill take Windows over Linux any day of the week. My time is more enjoyed playing games, painting in photoshop or trolling TPU than spending a day trying to figure out how to install my keyboard drivers in Linux.

Call BS on anything you like. That's all the healing balm for the butt hurt I'm gonna give.

EDIT: While I was writing this OneMour was apparently replying also. Look OneMour and I do not see eye to eye on much ANYTHING. I have him muted in TeamSpeak to this day.......EVEN HE AGREES LINUX SUCKS. I agree with OneMour..........I need to shower.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 25, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> People are complaining about a free upgrade that is non mandatory and unnecessary. Their biggest complaint is that it will have automatic updates which at this time we don't know what exactly they are. They could just be the recommended security updates. The complaint isn't about its (W10) usability. Its friendly user interface or anything else. Its all about a unreasonable fear of big brother watching their porn habits. Diver update issue isn't even reasonable to concern. So I figured, as always there will be a *SIMPLE* work around *IF* there is even an issue. Chances are there will even be an option on install to turn some things off. People who have been running Windows 10 for months haven't been complaining or there would already be massive blow back.



Fallacy.  We know exactly what they are...  rtm is out.  They (the testers) haven't complained before now because this feature was only recently starting being used in it's intended fashion.  Pretty much ends that argument, doesn't it?

The big brother stuff is BS but that's off topic.

The topic is Windows XP.  But now we're on Linux so I'll indulge you for a moment.  Linux doesn't suck.  It's not a desktop OS.  Using it as one or attempting to make it one has been similar to complaining that toothpaste does not work as deodorant.


----------



## Atomic77 (Jul 25, 2015)

Oh my gosh this discussion really got derailed.


----------



## Jetster (Jul 25, 2015)

It was pointless after the first page


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> Oh my gosh this discussion really got derailed.


What!? We are still talking about operating systems.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 25, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its actually quit simple. You are calling BS on two points to two different subjects that have only some shared traits.
> 
> Ill itemize because that's what I like to do when making my points.
> 
> ...




I don't give a single whit about how you want to read my response, and I don't appreciate you interpreting what I am saying.  Every time you respond you manage to twist my wording to mean something I've not implied.

I'll make the point clear.  If you want to say that MS is offering a free "upgrade" to windows 10, therefore people should be quiet about a very real potential issue, then you can't really turn around and bash a completely free OS.  You compound the duplicity by stating that any possible issues in Windows can be solved, by a registry edit that is non-trivial, and calling Linux a refuge for "neck beards."  After insults, baseless accusations, and an argument built upon fluff you claim that the two topics (EOL XP and a suggested upgrade to an unproven new OS) are only tangentially related.  The leaps in logic to avoid linking these two topics are absolutely astounding.


I don't care about your opinions on Linux.  They don't matter, because saying I'd have to spend an hour and $120 on a W10 install, but have to spend four hours on a Linux install is a trivial difference.  One of the greatest hurdles going from one MS OS to another is discovering where exactly they moved everything you used to use, and I don't think either of us could argue against that.  Linux is only one step more than that, as you've got to learn all of the basics before doing anything.  For your invested time you get a far more flexible system, and don't have to pay a cent for it.  Flexibility, in practice, is on a see-saw with ease of use.  The more you can do, the more complicated a system needs to be.  

You are 100% correct when you cited Apple.  Their systems a locked down, but easy to use.  MS going in the same direction with forced updates is the same thing, and should be feared.  I don't want to have to jump ship to Linux (it still has too many issues), but if I can't manage my own computer any more then I have no choice.  Assuming MS actually comes out with a logical update system (as we seem to agree, security is required but everything else is optional), I'll bite.  Unfortunately their track record speaks otherwise, so allowing them to know that forced updates will be something the community watches is only prudent.  You can reasonably argue that discussing it on a technical forum is less than impactfull, but the more people who know about it, the more can respond if MS manages to make an error.



For the record, we agree on Linux.  It's got too many flavors to be useful to an average user, the commands are obfuscated behind idiotic naming that each flavor determines, and the drivers are even worse than the MS automatic options.  I've experienced the pain of installing the Nvidia Linux driver (having to black flag the old one still raises my eyebrow).  Linux needs orthodoxy.  Somebody needs to step forward, design a UI for some of these features that isn't dependent upon a mile of syntax that can be destroyed by a single incorrect keystroke, and it all needs to be packaged so that most users have access to basic functions (word processing, spreadsheets, e-mail, browsing, and media playback) right out of the box.  What Linux needs is an XP; a system where competent users can do just about anything to the OS, but basic users don't have to swim to the deep end of the pool.  Ubuntu is trying to do that, but they've got a lot of distance left to go.  Mint and Puppydog are great for low impact experimentation.  Redhat is doing a decent job with the "neck beard light" business community.  Meanwhile Arch, Backtrack, and thousands of other distributions exist in the confusing realm between generalist and one use flavors that make Linux both amazing and confusing.

Seriously though, there are distros of Linux that do FEA better than programs that are licensed to universities for $100,000 per year.  Once they're installed and running they require almost no maintenance, can be locked down for security, and their cost is only the time required to learn their intricacies.  Given the hours you'll be spending learning any CAD program, Linux blows them out of the water with functionality, cost, and features.  All engineers aren't "neck beards," and stating otherwise shows a crass nature which brings the voracity of any comments you make rather easy to dismiss as ignorant ravings.


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 25, 2015)

well that escalated quickly


----------



## johnspack (Jul 25, 2015)

XP?  Pos2009 reg trick.  MS doesn't care.  It'll keep getting security updates.  But why?  Win7 will run better and faster on the same old hardware.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 25, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> I don't give a single whit about how you want to read my response, and I don't appreciate you interpreting what I am saying.  Every time you respond you manage to twist my wording to mean something I've not implied.
> 
> I'll make the point clear.  If you want to say that MS is offering a free "upgrade" to windows 10, therefore people should be quiet about a very real potential issue, then you can't really turn around and bash a completely free OS.  You compound the duplicity by stating that any possible issues in Windows can be solved, by a registry edit that is non-trivial, and calling Linux a refuge for "neck beards."  After insults, baseless accusations, and an argument built upon fluff you claim that the two topics (EOL XP and a suggested upgrade to an unproven new OS) are only tangentially related.  The leaps in logic to avoid linking these two topics are absolutely astounding.
> 
> ...


Actually I said and I quote "Linux is for professionals who are paid and guys who cant get laid. No woman will stay with someone who wants to willingly learn Linux for the lulz.". Linux has a place. An important one at that. However people who use it for non-professional reasons are neck beards.......never said a darn thing about engineers.


----------



## Sir B. Fannybottom (Jul 25, 2015)

everyone should just use macs because they are better and you dont need to upgrade them like shit windows pcs


----------



## johnspack (Jul 25, 2015)

Not sure what all the banter was about,  but I'm a windows whore...  and even I like playing with linux.  It has it's uses.  I like off the mainstream distros like opensuse,  where you can install a driver in seconds.  You can install multimedia codecs to play anything,  in again,  seconds.  Linux could be much better if software developers supported it,  but MS has billions to spend,  and everyone follows them like the proverbial carrot at the end of the stick.  Win 10 sucks,  and I will avoid it like the plague,  my take on that.  And I was able to delete my GWX folder on my win7 install not long ago,  so that issue is resolved.  VMs are useful....  try them!


----------



## Frick (Jul 25, 2015)

CJCerny said:


> I think it's important to realize that a lot of the "new OS is gonna make my life a lot better" group think is just a result of constantly hearing that kind of talk from Microsoft (and the other offenders). In reality, there isn't that much in Win 7 or Win 10 that is new and makes me want to pay to get it. The OS is really just code to make all the hardware play nice with each other. The real fun (and/or productivity) is in the apps that you load on your PC, and the OS doesn't really play a big role in that. XP is still chugging along fine on an old machine I have. Granted, I use Firefox now and Avira in place of IE and MSE but, I wouldn't get any real bang for my buck by plunking down $100 to update to a newer OS.



This is true, up to a point. Software needs updates, and sooner or later it makes sense to break off from the old version. They could update XP forever, but it would'nt make sense from any perspective, not with how things were done back then.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 25, 2015)

The docs offices here mostly use 7 since they are mostly new offices and PCs... Hell I saw a machine with server 2012 as a workstation and it even had a G500 mouse and a higher end logitech KB! ha ha. This was one of the receptionist's computers. 

Lots of windows 7 and 8 systems here. As well as higher end cisco networking hardware or aruba networks access points.


----------



## Atomic77 (Jul 27, 2015)

I thought I saw somewhere some one was still on windows 2000 or windows ME.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 27, 2015)

No way would I connect to the internet on W2000, not even with the huge community service pack!


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 27, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> No way would I connect to the internet on W2000


And do you feel safer with Windows 10!?

Different versions, same risk. LOL!


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> And do you feel safer with Windows 10!?
> 
> Different versions, same risk. LOL!



Uh, not really...  The kernel has way more unpatched vulnerabilities in 2000...  mostly due to the longstanding lack of MS support.


----------



## Steevo (Jul 27, 2015)

BUCK NASTY said:


> Lol, my company flat-out bought IBM's AS400 POS software from circa 1988. Best thing we ever did. We now tweak it in-house and it scales wonderfully across 550 branches nationwide and it's very fast.  Just cause it's old does not mean it has to be upgraded. We run Win 7 on every desktop and Citrix on some of the terminals.


AS/400 is secure at the hardware level, and no rights are granted except those explicitly listed in a admin only access file. I used to love our old one, 3270 emulator setup on Windows Vista was a chore when it was brand new, but I managed to get it to work and then had a large company (who provided the AS/400 and their own POS/Inventory management/Payroll etc... software running on it) try to get me to give them the fix, for free of course.


----------



## micropage7 (Jul 27, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> No way would I connect to the internet on W2000, not even with the huge community service pack!


yeah, theres no perfect os, as long as you can deal with it and run it nicely you can keep it longer than it should


----------



## Atomic77 (Jul 28, 2015)

The perfect OS is actually the one you are currently using as long as it works and you don't have issues with using it for whatever you do. But it is better to be a windows 7 or a 8.1 at this point anyways in reguards to support and Microsoft updates.


----------



## ChristTheGreat (Jul 29, 2015)

Actually, if the computer got no internet, it's fine. ALso, you can still buy security updates at microsoft if I remember, but cost like 100 to 200$ a year per computer.

Also, sometimes people use old software, which isn't support on newer version, which make them not wanting to change.


----------



## tabascosauz (Jul 29, 2015)

Eons ago in this thread, someone mentioned that the US Navy still uses Windows XP. If that is true, it's still quite different from a business like a doctor's office using Windows XP, since the latter is merely a small business. With applications that involve the military, government agencies, or aeronautics such as NASA, even the use of Windows 2000 as a base for its software would not be unacceptable, since stability (not likely to behave bizarrely), reliability (won't sprout a bug that no one knows about) and protection (surviving hits from various ordnance or withstanding the dangers of space) are much more important than speed. Plus, the UI can be super simple and non-demanding on hardware because it must be intuitive.

In a doctor's office, however, I imagine the usage of such a computer would be to access and maintain databases of client information. This would not be too dissimilar to what computers are used for in a law office (with which I have experience), albeit with a little less internet usage. There are plenty of performance penalties to be had with using XP, since I find that with the same HDD, a Pentium E5200 or C2D E7400 system performs better in the relevant legal software with Windows 7. Assuming that the database software in doctors' offices gets updated when necessary, there should be no reason why Windows 7 wouldn't be a viable choice for the clinic; of course, they can still use XP, though it might only afford a fraction of the performance (and this is not a debate over whether an i3-2120 performs as well as a i7-4790K in office applications; it's a question of whether you would want to wait 2 seconds after pressing a button or 60 seconds, and this is from personal experience). 

There is a distinction to be made between a doctor's office and a hospital. Hospital applications are mission-critical and mirror those of the military. Reliability over modernization, especially when someone's life hangs in the balance.


----------



## Atomic77 (Jul 29, 2015)

I don't really have anything more to add to this matter but It is common sense that businesses and clinics and hospitals would want to be as up to date on things as possible.


----------



## MilkyWay (Jul 29, 2015)

Does anywhere still use Warp OS/2? I know a few embedded systems did but most of them seem to have upgraded to XP overtime.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 29, 2015)

MilkyWay said:


> Does anywhere still use Warp OS/2? I know a few embedded systems did but most of them seem to have upgraded to XP overtime.



It's been dead for some time, despite numerous attempts to revive it.  It was last used in older ATM machines IIRC.  There may still be some floating around somewhere...

It's kernel is on par with XP and even ahead in some areas though, but make no mistake, everything else about it is dated and dead in the water.


----------



## Aquinus (Jul 29, 2015)

OneMoar said:


> linux: installing software
> 1. run package manager
> 2. attempt to deciper what package corresponds to what software
> 3. attempt to install said software, wait for it to install 20 dependencys
> ...



Aptitude has a GUI interface that lets you search packages like it were the App Store. Not exactly hard to use.
Resolved by GUI interface as stated above.
At least Linux handles dependencies for you. Be glad you don't have to screw with stuff like that in Windows.
99% of the time deps are fine. I've almost never have gotten a legitimate dependencies issue that couldn't be resolved with "apt-get update" which GUI aptitude runs when you start it.
Now your just ranting and not making a point.
Same as #5.



OneMoar said:


> linux upgrading:
> 1. steps 1 though 3 from the above
> 2. reboot:
> 3. spend 45M figuring out why xorg won't start
> ...



Remember, GUI. Single button saying "Distro upgrade," on Ubuntu.
Sure.
Ugh, drivers. This is the only thing I'll agree upon. Managing drivers in Linux sucks but, if you don't upgrade, they always seem to work. You run into the most issues when manually installing drivers and not using the package manager though...
Haven't seen this happen in 5 years.
At this point you gave up *if something went wrong*.
GParted usually does an okay job, however, I'll agree that it gparted tends to bork up however, if it's making drives unbootable, you probably did something on installation to make that happen. I've had a lot of issues with GParted but, destroying data isn't one of those problems unless you told it to.
Sure.
My point here is that you explained everything that can go wrong and in most cases it doesn't. Ubuntu has been getting a lot better with usability over the years and I have seen normal people use Ubuntu. People complain because they're not used to it but, if a normal person if forced to use it, they'll learn how to update, use a browser, and do thing very quickly. Before I graduated from college I saw a lot of non-technical people who would ask for help on their laptop and it would be running Ubuntu because daddy installed it or it came with their Dell.

Side note: I've seen people kill drives with the Windows installer partitioning tool too.


OneMoar said:


> dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda bs=4k


Too slow. Zeros are faster to generate and most drives don't do 4k chunks very quickly. 

```
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=4M
```



Blue-Knight said:


> It is not that it is easier, people are just used to it.


I don't agree with blue knight on things often, but this is one of those things. People like what is familiar. I've seen plenty of people learn how to use Ubuntu without too much issue to do regular things (browser, office, music, etc.)

However, I'm still a little annoyed that blue-knight won't even describe why he doesn't like Windows 8.1 while saying that it's so bad. Something can't be so bad if you can't say what's bad about it. I think someone needs to read Dr. Suess' Green Eggs and Ham; "I do not like them, Sam-I-Am!" When in reality, he hasn't ever tried green eggs and ham and when he does, they're delicious.

So I'm siding with @newtekie1 on this one. I'm calling you out until you explain to us why you feel so strongly because without reason, you just look like someone who doesn't like change.


TheMailMan78 said:


> Its actually quit simple. You are calling BS on two points to two different subjects that have only some shared traits.
> 
> Ill itemize because that's what I like to do when making my points.
> 
> ...


Linux has gotten a bit easier to use over the years. Most of the time, pointing and clicking does most of what you need it to do. If some girl who's an education major and isn't technical in any way, shape or form, can learn to use Linux and not have a problem with it, I think other people can too. Just like Blue-Knight, you're getting super worked up about this when you probably haven't dived into Linux recently. It sounds like your experience may be dated.

Edit: I'm getting the distinct impression that people are making mountains out of mole hills when it comes Windows 10 and Linux. So many of these claims are simply astonishing.

On topic: I happen to know that the local hospital is moving to Win7 as we speak, they may have already upgraded even.


----------



## Basard (Jul 29, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Give one or more example...



Everything other than "basic office tasks and web browsing...."

Some people work on their own car, some people don't or can't.  I messed around with Linux Mandrake back in the late 90's... everything was a pain in the ass compared to windows (I'm sure a lot has changed since then). 

It depends how much you enjoy having pains in your ass, I guess. haha


----------



## OneMoar (Jul 29, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> Aptitude has a GUI interface that lets you search packages like it were the App Store. Not exactly hard to use.
> Resolved by GUI interface as stated above.
> At least Linux handles dependencies for you. Be glad you don't have to screw with stuff like that in Windows.
> 99% of the time deps are fine. I've almost never have gotten a legitimate dependencies issue that couldn't be resolved with "apt-get update" which GUI aptitude runs when you start it.
> ...


I was being sarcastic
zelot confirmed


----------



## Aquinus (Jul 29, 2015)

OneMoar said:


> I was being sarcastic


Could have fooled me.


OneMoar said:


> zelot confirmed


----------



## ChevyOwner (Jul 29, 2015)

Until a few years ago (3-5 IIRC) the mail inserters where my dad works ran on Windows 3.1. Not sure if they use XP or Seven now.


----------



## johnspack (Jul 29, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> It's been dead for some time, despite numerous attempts to revive it.  It was last used in older ATM machines IIRC.  There may still be some floating around somewhere...
> 
> It's kernel is on par with XP and even ahead in some areas though, but make no mistake, everything else about it is dated and dead in the water.


Actually it's called eComStation now,  and 2.2 beta was released in 2013.  It's another os I play with in vms.......


----------



## Cybrnook2002 (Jul 29, 2015)

puma99dk| said:


> Problem is many companies uses outdated programs that can't run in Windows 7, even XP Mode don't always work it needs a real XP computer or a virtuel one to work, but that costs money so they just use it every day until the computer dies and u can't find spare parts and the new computers don't support XP than they have to use money on upgrading everything.


Nailed it!


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## v12dock (Jul 29, 2015)

Windows XP is no longer HIPPA compliant. It's only time before they start failing meaningful use because of it. I work for a medical software company and for that reason we can no longer provide support for Windows XP.


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## Blue-Knight (Jul 30, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> So I'm siding with @newtekie1 on this one. I'm calling you out until you explain to us why you feel so strongly because without reason, you just look like someone who doesn't like change.


I disliked Windows 8/8.1.

I tested Windows 10 today, and I liked it.

Thank you!



Spoiler: Unnecessary comments (about Windows 10)



There were a few things I disliked but those were mere details, nothing is perfect.

One thing that caught my attention was that finally Windows users will be able to enjoy the benefits of having "Multiple Virtual Desktops" (a.k.a. workspaces in Linux) out of the box. I feel suffocated when I have just 1 desktop to organize numerous windows.

Finally, they included out of the box support for FLAC files. But I miss WAVPACK.

What I miss:
Out of the box support for foreign file systems.
Probably much more if I think about it... LOL!


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## R-T-B (Jul 30, 2015)

johnspack said:


> Actually it's called eComStation now,  and 2.2 beta was released in 2013.  It's another os I play with in vms.......



I'm aware of ecomstation, I even was a licensee until recently.  I still consider it dead in the water.  It doesn't even have an up to date browser anymore...


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## ShiBDiB (Jul 30, 2015)

Toothless said:


> Antivirus programs will have to work slightly harder? Y'know the United States Navy is still using XP, right?
> 
> I was considering on putting XP on my netbook again instead of 7, because y'know what? It works.



DOD uses 7


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## Frick (Jul 30, 2015)

Aquinus said:


> At least Linux handles dependencies for you. Be glad you don't have to screw with stuff like that in Windows.



This is ... often true, but sometimes (or quite often in my experience) you come across something that for some reason doesn't work and you have to add repositories manually. The latest example was on Lubuntu ... was it 13/14? Anyway I tried to install something from the package manager (I think it was a mine sweeper game ... or something, it was last year), and some dependencies only existed in older repos, which I had to add manually to some list somewhere. This has happened on most distros I've tried. Sometimes an apt-get update solves it, but how would one know that if you're new to it?

Another annoying thing is when you're looking for something as simple as something that tells you the temps on your system and you install something that gets the sensors (after some serious googling) and then you realize you ALSO need a GUI for that package, and the name for that package is something completely unrelated to the sensor package and if you're new to Linux any descriptions might as well be written in ancient hebrew. I looked for that this winter, so that is a new experience. At least synaptic is actually really damned terrible to use unless you grew up with it.







But things are definitely better than they used to be, that's extremely true.


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## micropage7 (Jul 30, 2015)

back to title

*" WINDOWS XP??? WAKE UP PEOPLE. "*


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## xorbe (Jul 30, 2015)

I'm awake! I'm awake!


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## Arjai (Jul 30, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> I tested Windows 8.1 this week (for the first time)... It is horrible. I would keep with 7 until 10 comes out.
> 
> Edit: Just my opinion.


Dude, you think WIN 10 is gonna be better than 8.1? Eventually, maybe.


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## R-T-B (Jul 30, 2015)

Arjai said:


> Dude, you think WIN 10 is gonna be better than 8.1? Eventually, maybe.



It pretty much already is even with all the microsoft update-BS IMO.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 30, 2015)

micropage7 said:


> back to title
> 
> *" WINDOWS XP??? WAKE UP PEOPLE. "*


Told ya just hit the space bar. Problem solved.


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## Aquinus (Jul 30, 2015)

Arjai said:


> Dude, you think WIN 10 is gonna be better than 8.1? Eventually, maybe.


It feels pretty solid to me. No BSODs or crashes yet which is usually a good sign.


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## Blue-Knight (Jul 31, 2015)

Arjai said:


> Dude, you think WIN 10 is gonna be better than 8.1? Eventually, maybe.


I already tested it, and I can tell you: It is better, much better.


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## ZeDestructor (Jul 31, 2015)

Frick said:


> This is ... often true, but sometimes (or quite often in my experience) you come across something that for some reason doesn't work and you have to add repositories manually. The latest example was on Lubuntu ... was it 13/14? Anyway I tried to install something from the package manager (I think it was a mine sweeper game ... or something, it was last year), and some dependencies only existed in older repos, which I had to add manually to some list somewhere. This has happened on most distros I've tried. Sometimes an apt-get update solves it, but how would one know that if you're new to it?
> 
> Another annoying thing is when you're looking for something as simple as something that tells you the temps on your system and you install something that gets the sensors (after some serious googling) and then you realize you ALSO need a GUI for that package, and the name for that package is something completely unrelated to the sensor package and if you're new to Linux any descriptions might as well be written in ancient hebrew. I looked for that this winter, so that is a new experience. At least synaptic is actually really damned terrible to use unless you grew up with it.
> 
> ...



Ahh, games.. a massive PITA to package on literally any OS. The only way to really get around that is to just pack everything with the game and have it run entirely standalone (Windows does that, as do most *nix games) or just pack all the deps with your game library management layer (which is how Steam does it on Linux for a bunch of "common" deps).

The GUI to a sensor being completely unrelated to the sensor's library is completely normal as well: on *nix, it's common to build small utilities that do one thing and only one thing and then build another (very often a completely different person/team to the creator of the original thing) thing to show it in a prettier way. On Windows, the tendency is for everyone to just re-implement the same thing over and over again all the time, with the same bugs implemented over and over again.


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## Frick (Jul 31, 2015)

ZeDestructor said:


> The GUI to a sensor being completely unrelated to the sensor's library is completely normal as well: on *nix, it's common to build small utilities that do one thing and only one thing and then build another (very often a completely different person/team to the creator of the original thing) thing to show it in a prettier way. On Windows, the tendency is for everyone to just re-implement the same thing over and over again all the time, with the same bugs implemented over and over again.



Aye and the *nix way is often a PITA IMO. This is one of the reason Linux is not a success to the avarage end user until you take away much of what makes it Linuxy (ie Android), and I make the argument it cannot be a mainstream sucess until the majority of traditional Linux users hate it.


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## ZeDestructor (Jul 31, 2015)

Frick said:


> Aye and the *nix way is often a PITA IMO. This is one of the reason Linux is not a success to the avarage end user until you take away much of what makes it Linuxy (ie Android), and I make the argument it cannot be a mainstream sucess until the majority of traditional Linux users hate it.



Yes and no... Everything is turning more and more appliance-like, and web-based, and while I don't particularly like it, it may well be the tipping point of moving a decently large user base to one of the major distros.

I think it's a good thing the *nixes favour a very layered approach of many small (and not so small.. I'm looking at you systemd) utilities, but much like it has been the case over the past 15 years, the UI needs improvement. The thing is, current day Linux is miles ahead of say XP or Vista in the UI and ease of use categories, but Apple and MS keep improving too, so for all the strides made, it still needs work, even though the remaining gaps are steadily closing.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 31, 2015)

ZeDestructor said:


> Yes and no... Everything is turning more and more appliance-like, and web-based, and while I don't particularly like it, it may well be the tipping point of moving a decently large user base to one of the major distros.
> 
> I think it's a good thing the *nixes favour a very layered approach of many small (and not so small.. I'm looking at you systemd) utilities, but much like it has been the case over the past 15 years, the UI needs improvement. The thing is, current day Linux is miles ahead of say XP or Vista in the UI and ease of use categories, but Apple and MS keep improving too, so for all the strides made, it still needs work, even though the remaining gaps are steadily closing.


Not going to happen.


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## de.das.dude (Jul 31, 2015)

Atomic77 said:


> *I Just noticed at my doctors office and some other places ive been too there are still people using windows xp.  I think its time for people to wake up and at least get as far as windows 7 or 8.1. What is your opinion on this?*


  a lot of offices use software that are probably discontinued and would not work on newer versions. also sometimes you would have to pay to upgrade to a new OS version. waste of a lot of money.
if it aint broke dont fix it.

not to mention the hardware changes that would need to be undertaken. most xp machines would have ddr2 based setups, and now windows 7 if youre in an office 4gb is minimum. so think of the countless systems needed to be upgraded. again, waste of money.


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