# Power Supply check



## Tiamat (Feb 21, 2018)

Hi guys! Can u help me with a doubt?

Is it possible to evaluate the actual conditions of my XFX 550W PRO SERIES by checking the voltage offered in each connector using for this, the sensors detection showed in some software (like aida 64)


For example, , AIDA 64 shows

Voltage Values    
CPU Core    1.260 V
CPU VID    1.076 V
+12 V    12.221 V
VTT    1.044 V
DIMM    1.512 V

If yes, what are the expected values (and variation) in each case. Do u know any other program to do this?

Ty!!!


----------



## Mr.Scott (Feb 21, 2018)

Software cannot be trusted to test PSU voltages. Only a DMM can.


----------



## erocker (Feb 21, 2018)

If you can find a "Kil-A-Watt"/power meter, etc. ( you can get them at a hardware store) plug your system into that and see how much it's pulling under full load. Balance that with the age of the PSU and you can decide if you need a new one or not.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 21, 2018)

Tiamat said:


> If yes, what are the expected values (and variation) in each case.


The only conclusive way to test a PSU is with an oscilloscope or dedicated power supply analyzer - expensive and sophisticated test equipment. So for most users swapping in a known good spare is the best alternative. 

To answer your question, PC power supplies are required to output 3 primary voltages; +3.3VDC, +5VDC and +12VDC. The ATX Form Factor standard stipulates a maximum allowed ±5% tolerance. So, 

Acceptable Tolerances:
12VDC ±5% = 11.4 to 12.6VDC
5VDC ±5% = 4.75 to 5.25VDC
3.3VDC ±5% = 3.14 to 3.47VDC​Note using a multimeter is not conclusive either. For one, to test properly, the supply must be tested under a full range of expected loads, from an idle state all the way up to 100% load, at the supply's rated operating temperature (typically 40° - 50°C). This is difficult to do with a multimeter. But also, a PSU must be tested and analyzed for excessive ripple and other anomalies that affect computer stability. Most multimeters cannot test for ripple.


----------



## peche (Feb 21, 2018)

there are some decently priced items...


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 21, 2018)

Those are better than nothing. I have one like the one to the right of the X model I keep in my tool bag for house calls. But note those only have a small 10Ω load. They don't provide a full range of loads. And they don't test for ripple either. They can definitely tell you if a PSU is dead or missing a voltage, but they cannot conclusively tell you a supply is good.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 21, 2018)

Again though, its better than nothing, or software. We cant all be EE (not saying you are, just saying)  and have truly proper testing equipment. So, a simple dmm or those testers which essentially do the same thing, perhaps with a bit of resistance, will have to do....if its still wonky, send it in. Its just one of those boxes where we cant do much about it. 



erocker said:


> Balance that with the age of the PSU and you can decide if you need a new one or not.


What does this tell you?


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 21, 2018)

I no longer have a scope. And my shop is not that big that I need or can justify spending the money on a dedicated power supply analyzer.

Nope - swapping in known good spares is a tried and true troubleshooting method used by amateur and professional technicians alike for years. And you sure don't have to spend big money on a Titanium certified PSU as a spare. Any old PSU will easily verify if your old PSU is the problem or not - as long as it can handle the load. If you get the exact same symptoms with the spare PSU, the original PSU is conclusively not the problem. You can't say the same thing with a tester or multimeter. 

And while I do have a bunch of certs and a couple degrees in electronics, I am not an EE. Technicians make things work in the real world what EE's "claim" works on paper and in theory!  lol


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 21, 2018)

Weird... felt like most of that post was a repeat of a repeat...so here it is again...lets see if what i think will happen happens......

So in the end...

1. We know software isnt reliable for voltage readings, period.
2. A dmm is accurate for voltages and will tell you if voltages are out of whack at idle and load if you are able to put one on the unit.
3. We cannot test for ripple (derp).
4.  Psu testers, those listed above, except for perhaps that coolermaster, are no better than a dmm. 

Essentially there is little we can do. If people are lucky enough to have a second known good psu, is really a good way to iso test the unit in question. Otherwise, we use the tools that we have and understand their limitations. Its the best weve got.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 21, 2018)

How I test my PSU ...and yes never trust PSU software


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 21, 2018)

Use "Speccy" here:  https://www.ccleaner.com/download

When open, go to motherboard, values for voltage there.

CPU CORE    1.240 V
MEMORY CONTROLLER    1.736 V
+3.3V    3.312 V
+5V    4.944 V
+12V    11.598 V
VIN6    1.072 V
CPU    1.237 V
DRAM    1.654 V
ICH Core    1.111 V
ICH PCIE +1.5V    1.508 V
CPU PLL    0.026 V
IOH PCIE +1.5V    1.812 V
IOH Core    1.098 V
QPI    1.230 V


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 21, 2018)

Thats software. See half a dozen posts above you going over its concerns.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 22, 2018)

Any hardware solution that only has a pass/fail light is insufficient.
You need raw numbers, so I'll take a software solution as a first clue, then a DMM.

The gratuitous comment about being software was not needed as you can't download hardware.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

We agree.. and said as much multiple times earlier in thread. 

Another software suggestion wasnt needed either, especially considering all the bunking that method garnered in this same thread...the user has software already. Speccy reads from the same registers as others. Is there a reason its better? Please share.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 22, 2018)

Software is completely inaccurate, they all get their info from the same Mobo IC.  I have an Antec PSU on a gigabyte Mobo that states my 12v rail is only at 50% of spec.  Yet if I swap out PSU with another PC then the Antec is well within spec.  All software tells you is how accurate or inaccurate your mobo is, not your PSU.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 22, 2018)

That's funny , because the first post doesn't show 3 and 5v rails, in the software solution.  Only the 12v was displayed.

So perhaps a secondary software solution that's more expansive, is a help.



dirtyferret said:


> Software is completely inaccurate, they all get their info from the same Mobo IC.  I have an Antec PSU on a gigabyte Mobo that states my 12v rail is only at 50% of spec.  Yet if I swap out PSU with another PC then the Antec is well within spec.  All software tells you is how accurate or inaccurate your mobo is, not your PSU.



You can also look at the voltages directly in the BIOS, or was that mentioned already?


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 22, 2018)

BIOS gets it from the same IC


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> That's funny , because the first post doesn't show 3 and 5v rails, in the software solution.  Only the 12v was displayed.
> 
> So perhaps a secondary software solution that's more expansive, is a help.
> 
> ...



Sorry, Fitz, the OP likely just didn't post the 3.3V readings as AIDA64 does read that. I am staring at it now as a matter of fact. If its readable, AIDA (and Speccy) will likely catch it.

As DF just said, and I said above, they (software) get their information from the same register, that includes the BIOS.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 22, 2018)

dirtyferret said:


> BIOS gets it from the same IC



Without the contended inaccurate secondary software solution.  Cut to the chase.  If the software numbers appear wrong, as Bill said in post 4, then look to a DMM to back that up.  The software is not as bad as claimed by some.  And it shows numbers under load.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

Isn't the BIOS the same 'intermediary' as software is to the register?

If we are cutting to the chase... Software can be accurate, but the only way to confirm is through a DMM, not through an additional piece of software (Speccy) which reads off the same registers.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 22, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> Without the contended inaccurate secondary software solution.  Cut to the chase.  If the software numbers appear wrong, as Bill said in post 4, then look to a DMM to back that up.  The software is not as bad as claimed by some.  And it shows numbers under load.


The software is not as good as claimed either and can easily state information of a PSU in spec when it's not.  It's the equivalent of using web md to diagnose the flu.  Just because you have flu like systems does not mean web md is an accurate replacement for a flu test at the doctor's office.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 22, 2018)

You keep arguing over minutiae.  Are you really proving anything?  The software is a first good indicator that something is wrong.  The first post only showed the 12v rail.  Tiamat may have omitted the other rails because he thinks the 12v is the only important V rail, when in fact, if the others are bad, he can have a bad PSU.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 22, 2018)

I am not arguing over anything.  I'm stating a fact as others have already said that all software that reports PSU from the Mobo IC is not an accurate measure.  That fact seems to bother you because you feel at times it can be accurate.  So I will make you feel better and state yes sometimes speccy can be accurate in the same way a broken clock can be accurate twice a day.  I'm done with the thread as now it's completely off topic.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 22, 2018)

So what exactly is your internet armchair diagnosis?  AND What pill should the OP take?

So far, you haven't offered a cure.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

Is Speccy, a piece of software which we all know can be inaccurate (like others), really more helpful? Ive had software read fine but with a MM attached was out of spec.

What the OP may have omitted or why, who knows. Your initial point was that AIDA didnt read it. I corrected that telling you it does and he just left it out. Now you've moved on to something else. You are spot on in this _different_ discussion about all the rails being important. My point was that we bunked the use of software which he already used to get 'an idea' of the voltages. Then, a post comes in without context saying to use different software (which reads from the same registers). I noted it was software and referenced earlier posts going over the efficacy of software in general. So, a "secondary software that is more expensive" isn't really a help as you stated? DId I miss something?

Yeah, rehashed, just like any other software suggestion... I think the point has been made ad nauseum without a paid solution showing the same thing being injected. God Bless TPU........



jsfitz54 said:


> So what exactly is your internet armchair diagnosis?  AND What pill should the OP take?
> 
> So far, you haven't offered a cure.


And your solution was a "more expensive piece of software" that shows the same exact information. And here we are spinning our tires over it rehashing points already made both about testing and that software isn't a great barometer....

Oye Vey. Unsubscribed.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 22, 2018)

So you solved his problem?

I will say it LOUDER, THE SOFTWARE IS A *FIRST* GOOD INDICATOR THAT SOMETHING MAY BE OFF.

I never said the software was inaccurate.  I said it was a tool to use.  Just like a stethoscope.

The comments at  the beginning regarding " well, you need a heavy duty expensive oscilloscope" to solve your problem is way off the mark in the context of the advice given in this thread.  If the OP owned it, he wouldn't have to ask here.

This thread is not a place to brag/boast about your self knowledge.

You guys should step back and take a broader look at how you "help" people.  Such as, keep it simple to start, and not scare the OP off.  1st post and run.

The OP never got back to any of you.

Bill's advice in post #4 was the best because it gave the OP a range of what the real numbers should look like.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

Shows up in new posts... I love train wrecks...

The reality is, we are all, mostly, saying the same thing. Software can be inaccurate, however, is the first thing we look at. It needs to be confirmed via multimeter. Post 4 was thorough, but is also the one that mentions you need expensive equipment to "properly" test so I am a bit confused there. Nobody who is asking that question has the equipment. So in that light, why mention it? Doesn't that scare someone that they cannot test it?? I don't follow that logic. Yes, he mentioned to swap as an alternative, but no other soul mentioned this later in the thread like that.


Bill_Bright said:


> The only conclusive way to test a PSU is with an oscilloscope or dedicated power supply analyzer - expensive and sophisticated test equipment.



Nobody is bragging or boasting here. At least I'm not... and don't see anyone else trying to do the same.

As far as taking a step back. I have to agree on many fronts. I ask you why you would drop another piece of software in to a thread where everyone notes software isn't accurate. I asked if it was better in some way, no response to that. Once it was clarified immediately AIDA64 had what was needed, it should have ended there. Instead, it felt like a bunch of saving face and straw man arguments going over shit we covered already (see post 4 and post 9).

Anyway, for reals.. .donezo with this garbage. If you (anyone) would like to continue, my PM box is always open.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 22, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> The reality is, we are all, mostly, saying the same thing.


I agree.


> 3. We cannot test for ripple (derp).


Derp? Any other method used to measure voltages may show the voltage to be well within tolerances. But if ripple is excessive, system stability is likely to occur resulting in unexplained reboots, shutdowns and freezes even though every thing appears to be good. If ripple suppression was stupid or meaningless as the derp comment suggests, ripple suppression would not be a key element of the ATX Form Factor standard that all ATX Form Factor PSUs must comply with. Nor would it be a key testing criteria for voltage regulation and PSU quality in PSU reviews by the top review sites, like TPU as seen here. Or here where a poor score is due, in part, from poor ripple suppression on the 3.3V rail.

So as I noted way back in post #4, "conclusive" testing requires sophisticated test equipment. That leaves swapping in a known good PSU to see if the same problem recurs. Of course, not everyone has extra PSUs laying around. But most people have a trusting friend or relative they can temporarily swap with. If not, most repair shops will test a PSU for a nominal fee.

Regardless, because EVERYTHING inside the computer case depends on good, clean, stable power, the condition of the PSU should be determined before spending money on anything else.



> Software is completely inaccurate


The problem with absolute blanket statements is they typically are not always correct. The facts are, software may, or may not be accurate. And if wrong, it may or may not be the fault of the software, but rather the sensor.

For example, I like Speccy for other things like temps, but not voltages. It is currently reporting the following for this computer:

+3.3V = 2.028 V
+5.0V = 3.367 V
+12V = 0.048 V​
If any of those were true, this computer would not be running.

HWiNFO64, on the other hand, currently shows on the same computer:

+3.3V = 3.305 V
+5.0V = 5.010 V
+12V = 12.168 V​
I have confirmed these later readings to be quite accurate with my multimeter - at least at this idle load level. 

@Tiamat - sorry this thread seems to have run away but there really is some good information presented. I realize you were asking about voltages other than +3.3, 5, and 12V but we cannot answer that. Those other voltages were created on your specific motherboard by various voltage divider circuits and are based on the specific components that motherboard supports, such as the specific CPUs and RAM. 

If your PSU voltages are good, and you have not made any user changes to your voltages in your BIOS Setup menu, there is a good chance your CPU Core, CPU VID, etc. voltages are good too. 

If your goal is just to verify what AIDA says, I recommend HWiNfo64. Check "Sensors only" when it starts or you will be overwhelmed with too much information - until you get used to the program. But as noted by many above, all these software based hardware monitors depend on cheap, low tech sensors and therefore are not conclusive.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Derp? Any other method used to measure voltages may show the voltage to be well within tolerances. But if ripple is excessive, system stability is likely to occur resulting in unexplained reboots, shutdowns and freezes even though every thing appears to be good. If ripple suppression was stupid or meaningless as the derp comment suggests,


Sorry I wasn't clear there... the 'derp' part was in reference to an average user not being able to test ripple without expensive equipment most do not have (the words preceding derp. ). I agree it is a factor and important, but, we can't test it... 

So while relevant, we can't test for it in the first place.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 22, 2018)

Thanks for clarifying. 


EarthDog said:


> So while relevant, we can't test for it in the first place.


Right. So beg, borrow or steal a spare from somewhere and see if the problem recurs. Okay don't steal one. 

BTW, having a spare power supply handy, along with one of those PSU testers is great for testing fans, drive motors, RGB lighting, pumps, and more outside your computer case and on your test bench. Something to think about if trying to justify in your head (or to the better half) spending money on a spare power supply. 

And yes, technically you can start a PSU outside your case using a paperclip, but many power supplies don't like running without a load. It is not an ATX requirement to run without a load. They can become unstable. So while those little testers only provide a small "dummy" load, that's enough to keep the output of the supply stable.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 22, 2018)

Yes, let's not steal... haha!!

Agreed, jumpered isn't a load. Those supplies are able to keep them 'stood up' that is about it. If users are able to put a load on the PSU with a DMM attached, they can see how the 12V/5V rails react at least (I am not sure how to test 3.3V). Otherwise, they are good to read voltages at idle, which of course, doesn't tell the whole story. 

Anyhoo... lol... hopefully the OP has plenty to go on. In looking, thankfully, he hadn't seen the mess created as he only saw the first two posts (which is funny because of what someone(else) said earlier and the OP never coming back because of the mess...lolololol). The OP hasn't gotten back to any of us because he only saw two posts. I would imagine a reply when he returns... and if not, who knows why.


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 22, 2018)

Wow, excelent discussion guys. I'm glad i could rise this questions!



Bill_Bright said:


> o answer your question, PC power supplies are required to output 3 primary voltages; +3.3VDC, +5VDC and +12VDC. The ATX Form Factor standard stipulates a maximum allowed ±5% tolerance. So,
> 
> Acceptable Tolerances:
> 12VDC ±5% = 11.4 to 12.6VDC
> ...



Tyvm! That was exactly one of my doubts!


peche said:


> there are some decently priced items...


lol. just cant afford that for now . It's just for my own use, so i guess i cant invest on those for now. But ty!



EarthDog said:


> Essentially there is little we can do. If people are lucky enough to have a second known good psu, is really a good way to iso test the unit in question. Otherwise, we use the tools that we have and understand their limitations. Its the best weve got.


I have to agree with u. The problem is whem testing the system just ends destroying it ...



dirtyferret said:


> How I test my PSU


I'll try that 



jsfitz54 said:


> Use "Speccy" here:  https://www.ccleaner.com/download
> 
> When open, go to motherboard, values for voltage there.



Ty man. I've donwload it now. It actually shows some data that i was not finding in Aida64

For ex:
CPU TERMINATION    1.044 V
+12V    12.270 V
+VCC    5.001 V
CPU CORE    1.008 V
DRAM    1.512 V
+3.3V    3.384 V

Despite it doenst show all the data u found. I guess my MB doesnt have all those sensors.



EarthDog said:


> just didn't post the 3.3V readings as AIDA64


I feel shame, but i actually didnt find those in my AIDA64. Did u find them? Where?



jsfitz54 said:


> Tiamat may have omitted the other rails because he thinks the 12v is the only important V rail, when in fact, if the others are bad, he can have a bad PSU.


I just lost a ATI HD 7850. it was presenting problems for a long long time. I used lived in a city that voltage was a real problem. I had an Antec PSU that started presenting problems a few years ago. It burned a GTX 560 ti that i had. After that i got the HD 7850 and the antec just kicked that VGA too. Only than i realized the problem was with my PSU. My HD 7850 lost its standard fan control, but i could overpass that by using MSI AFTERBURNER. The VGA port was damage too. Anyway, the HD 7850 hold on for almost 3 years. 15 days ago it just went off... i'm concerned in turning on my new GTX 1060 on my PSU, and have problems with it, like i did with the ATI.

sorry for the english 



jsfitz54 said:


> will say it LOUDER, THE SOFTWARE IS A *FIRST* GOOD INDICATOR THAT SOMETHING MAY BE OFF.



I agree with u. I understand that is not perfect (by far). But in my case, i'll just have to use it cause it is what i can use for now.



EarthDog said:


> Doesn't that scare someone that they cannot test it??


Yes!



Bill_Bright said:


> For example, I like Speccy for other things like temps, but not voltages. It is currently reporting the following for this computer:
> 
> +3.3V = 2.028 V
> +5.0V = 3.367 V
> ...



lol thats strange..



Bill_Bright said:


> @Tiamat - sorry this thread seems to have run away but there really is some good information presented. I realize you were asking about voltages other than +3.3, 5, and 12V but we cannot answer that. Those other voltages were created on your specific motherboard by various voltage divider circuits and are based on the specific components that motherboard supports, such as the specific CPUs and RAM.
> 
> If your PSU voltages are good, and you have not made any user changes to your voltages in your BIOS Setup menu, there is a good chance your CPU Core, CPU VID, etc. voltages are good too.
> 
> If your goal is just to verify what AIDA says, I recommend HWiNfo64. Check "Sensors only" when it starts or you will be overwhelmed with too much information - until you get used to the program. But as noted by many above, all these software based hardware monitors depend on cheap, low tech sensors and therefore are not conclusive.




Tyvm. I agree, there are a lot of good info here. I'm checkin HWiNfo64 just now.


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 23, 2018)

Tiamat said:


> lol. just cant afford that for now . It's just for my own use, so i guess i cant invest on those for now. But ty!


$20? Ok.



Tiamat said:


> I have to agree with u. The problem is whem testing the system just ends destroying it ...


No.



Tiamat said:


> Despite it doenst show all the data u found. I guess my MB doesnt have all those sensors.


That or AIDA can't read them... did HWInfo show it or no? If not, then the software isn't reading the register. 



Tiamat said:


> lol thats strange..


It isn't.


----------



## kn00tcn (Feb 23, 2018)

i was going to mention hwinfo, it seems to try to get as many sensors as possible, hopefully not made up ones, gamersnexus recommends it as first choice

by comparison, cpuid's hwmonitor has regressed, though i preferred its interface



erocker said:


> If you can find a "Kil-A-Watt"/power meter, etc. ( you can get them at a hardware store) plug your system into that and see how much it's pulling under full load. Balance that with the age of the PSU and you can decide if you need a new one or not.


this is a strange response, how does measuring wall AC show if a psu's DC output is ok? how does OP know what to do with the numbers?

i've got a killawatt along with hopefully working chinese noname psus & old parts that can be compared to an old seasonic, so i can test if there is an actual calculation, but doesnt seem right


----------



## erocker (Feb 23, 2018)

kn00tcn said:


> i was going to mention hwinfo, it seems to try to get as many sensors as possible, hopefully not made up ones, gamersnexus recommends it as first choice
> 
> by comparison, cpuid's hwmonitor has regressed, though i preferred its interface
> 
> ...


Since no real issue was brought up I was making a suggestion in terms of what many do with power supplies. You buy one that meets your needs/power draw and replace them after an extended time (when warranty is up, etc)

Things like using a multimeter for actual readings was already covered by another poster.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 23, 2018)

Tiamat said:


> I guess my MB doesnt have all those sensors.


That is not uncommon. There is no industry standard dictating if motherboards will have sensors or where located if they have them. Same with temperature sensors. I have noticed several motherboards don't even have a +5VDC sensor, which I think is really odd.


Tiamat said:


> lol thats strange..


It is strange that Speccy sometimes reports voltages so far off. I make a point of reporting that strange behavior because, sadly, I have seen more than one user purchase a new power supply just because of those readings, only to discover Speccy reported the same way-off voltages with the new supply.  It is disappointing because otherwise, Speccy (and its sister products, CCleaner, Recuva and Defraggler) are all excellent products.

What is really odd to me is that different hardware monitoring programs would show different voltages (or temperatures) at all. These sensors just report some hexadecimal number to the system. The system then converts that number to a unit value (volts, °C, °F). It's not rocket science. If a sensor reports a value of A5D33F10 and that value = 12.012VDC with one sensor, A5D33F10 should represent 12.012VDC with any monitoring program - including the BIOS. 

Some difference is expected because the monitor takes a snapshot in time. Voltages and and especially temps are constantly varying and it is highly unlikely two monitoring programs would sample the exact same point in time. If the system is running with the same load when the samples are taken (at idle for example), both the temps and voltages readings should be pretty darn close, IMO.


----------



## Tiamat (Feb 23, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> These sensors just report some hexadecimal number to the system. The system then converts that number to a unit value (volts, °C, °F). It's not rocket science.


 
Indeed


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 24, 2018)

That's why you try different software.  Sometimes 3 different ones.
Not everyone has an open air test bench with easy access to voltage measurement points.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 24, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> That's why you try different software. Sometimes 3 different ones.


Yes, but different software relies on the same low tech, potentially faulty (if present at all) sensors. And software only takes a snapshot of a single point in time - not across a full range of loads. Not to mention, software requires the computer and Windows to boot successfully in order for the software to run. Not an easy task if the PSU is not outputting all required voltages within specs. 

Catch-22: the software needs the PSU to work in order to see if the PSU is working. 

Point? Not conclusive. 



> Not everyone has an open air test bench with easy access to voltage measurement points.


No, but most users do have access to a kitchen or dinning room table (desktop or even a floor), and another PSU or another computer they can temporarily swap PSUs with. Whether they want to impose on a friend or relative is another issue.

Point? Conclusive. 

Frankly, any user who has the initiative and desire to conduct his or her own computer troubleshooting should have access to a spare PSU, either through a partnership with a trusting friend or relative, or even if they buy one themselves. It does not have to be an expensive 80 PLUS certified supply from a reputable maker. Any PSU of sufficient power can be used to determine conclusively if the original PSU is the problem, or not. It would be a shame to spend big money on a new graphics card or motherboard only to discover the problem still exists because the PSU had too much ripple, poor regulation, or a voltage too far out of tolerance.

That said, my spare is an 80 PLUS Bronze from a reputable maker because if I find the original supply is bad, I want to put something good in there until a new replacement can be obtained. So investing in a quality spare is not a bad idea either. 

If you are the "go to" family, friend, or neighborhood computer guy (either by choice or by circumstances), get yourself a nice spare PSU. 

FTR, basic electronics troubleshooting 101 every student of electronics is taught from the beginning starts out with (1) Is it plugged in? (2) Is it turned on? And (3) are voltages correct? I'm just saying.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 24, 2018)

Bill, the obvious is that motherboard manufactures build in these sensors for a reason and that they can be read in the Bios for a reason.
You would need to explain in great detail why these are not needed, to convince me otherwise.
An entire industry can't be wrong.

A third party software that helps in reading these is a good tool.
Your preference for HWiNFO64 adds another choice here to the mix.  That indicates that you do use software!

You make valid points about a spare on hand and being actually able to boot the PC to make a read or borrowing a spare from a friend.

On the other hand I doubt you would tell your mom to go get a DMM (Digital Multi Meter), and by the way mom don't electrocute yourself  or short out the the other components while you do this.

FREE software is the first choice in keeping it simple, especially when others may lack the capacity to purchase other tools or don't have the advanced knowledge that you do.

A simple mouse trap might be a better choice for most over an oscilloscope.  Remember that there is only a suspicion that something might be off and we are looking for clues.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 24, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> Bill, the obvious is that motherboard manufactures build in these sensors for a reason and that they can be read in the Bios for a reason.
> You would need to explain in great detail why these are not needed, to convince me otherwise.
> An entire industry can't be wrong.


What are you talking about? I NEVER EVER said they are not needed! I said motherboard sensors can not conclusively tell you if your PSU is outputting voltages that are within required specifications.



jsfitz54 said:


> On the other hand I doubt you would tell your mom to go get a DMM


Again, what are you talking about? I NEVER EVER said anyone should use a multimeter. Again, I said a multimeter can not conclusively tell you if your PSU is outputting voltages properly (no ripple and not a variety of loads). And besides the fact my mom passed over 20 years ago, when my folks had computer problems, they called me as the family "go to" computer guy.

For the last time, the facts are thus:

Sensors are very low tech, very inexpensive, not robust devices,
Sensors can be bad from the start,
Sensors fail,
Not all motherboards include sensors (there is no ATX Form Factor requirements for them),
Software (as I showed with Speccy) can be wrong,
Software does NOT report power anomalies like ripple or poor regulation that cause system instability, crashes, and failures to boot,
Software requires the PSU to be operational so the computer can boot and run the software so the software can report the voltages, 
Software does not measure voltages under a full variety of loads,
Multimeters do not measure ripple,
Multimeters need to measure voltages while the computer is under a full range of loads,
PSU testers do not measure ripple,
PSU testers only provide a small (typically only 10Ω) "dummy" load.

Therefore, *NO sensor, software, multimeter, or tester can conclusively verify if a PSU is working properly. *Period! That can only be done with an oscilloscope or dedicated power supply analyzer (expensive and sophisticated test equipment) and a properly trained technician capable of understanding their results. Therefore, for the normal user, that only leaves swapping in a known good power supply to conclusively verify if the original PSU is good, or bad.

Consequently, to avoid the risk of needlessly wasting money and time on a new motherboard, graphics card or CPU, etc., it is imperative to verify conclusively they are being fed good, clean power first, since every device inside the computer depends on good clean, stable power to operate properly. 

So you can keep defending the software, motherboard makers, sensors, whoever or whatever all you want. That list of facts (not my opinion - facts!) will not not change.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 24, 2018)

Bill, you are an advanced user.

When the OP posts about his power supply maybe causing issues and needs help and only posts the 12v rail and* omits the 5v and 3.3v, why didn't you notice?*

I have NEVER said that the software is *absolute*, just a tool. A tool to aid in diagnosing a problem.

You even have a hard time using a mother as an example.  Right away, it's your mother. It could be any mother.

God Bless.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 24, 2018)

Me being an advanced user (or a qualified electronics technician for that matter) has nothing to do with this - except maybe to explain how I know what I am talking about here. 

And what are you expecting my mother, your mother or any mother would do? Are they advanced enough to run and understand such hardware monitoring software? Are they then to assume that software is correct and the PSU is good? Are they then to order a new motherboard or graphics card, etc. and proceed to replace it on their own? You are suggesting they are so inept they cannot swap out a PSU but they are fully qualified and capable of swapping out a motherboard! ??? That is what your argument is leading to, whether your intent or not. 

And what if their monitoring program correctly reports their voltages are wrong? Are they then suddenly going to know how to swap out PSUs?

Your points are not making any sense.

Swapping out power supplies is one of the easiest and often the first hardware maintenance task newbies perform. 4 screws and its unmounted. After that, it is just following and replacing cables with like cables. All connectors are keyed so they can only go in one way (without excessive force). All a user needs is a #2 Phillips screwdriver and good lighting.


jsfitz54 said:


> When the OP posts about his power supply maybe causing issues and needs help and only posts the 12v rail and* omits the 5v and 3.3v, why didn't you notice?*


Wow! Once again, what are you talking about? Let me say LOUDER like you did above, *WHY DIDN'T YOU NOTICE* in my post #28 above where I said,


Bill_Bright said:


> @Tiamat - I realize you were asking about voltages other than +3.3, 5, and 12V but we cannot answer that. Those other voltages were created on your specific motherboard by various voltage divider circuits and are based on the specific components that motherboard supports, such as the specific CPUs and RAM.
> 
> If your PSU voltages are good, and you have not made any user changes to your voltages in your BIOS Setup menu, there is a good chance your CPU Core, CPU VID, etc. voltages are good too.



So I did address those other voltages. *WHY DIDN'T YOU NOTICE?* 

And for the record and backing up a bit, to your comment that motherboard makers must include voltage monitoring sensors for a reason, they do. But not because the sensors are needed for the motherboard to operate properly. They are not. Those voltage monitoring sensors are there because users like to see them. From the motherboard maker's viewpoint, they just add to the cost of manufacturing - they are there for "marketing reasons", not any "technical" or "operational" reasons. Those sensors are not used by the very sensitive voltage regulation and divider circuits.

Now this thread is going the same route as your arguments - no where. So I'm done here.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 24, 2018)

Bill, my posts were deleted by moderator inferno before your post # 28.

*I raised the issue first here, with regards to omitted voltages. To Earthdog and you and all reading here at the time.*

*So you are lying at this point as to whom brought it up when and how.*


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 24, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> my posts were deleted by moderator inferno
> So you are lying at this point as to whom brought it up when and how


Moderator inferno? I'm lying?

Wow. Okay, if it makes you feel vindicated to say that, fine. I think folks can see for themselves what has been said - especially since everything you said that I quoted is still there for all to see.

Have a good day.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 24, 2018)

I purposely misspelled the moderators name as that is a closed issue.  You know who it is. He doesn't need to be mentioned directly.

At your level, you should have caught the lack of reported rails in post #4 not #28.  Not after I brought it up in post #16.
Riding my coat tails, after your miss.  You missed it because you want so badly to impress others that you are right and knowledgeable firstly, instead of looking at the problem in a practical manner for the OP.  Instead you decided to talk about oscilloscopes as an opener.  ( Is this about you or the OP?) The other info in post #4 regarding what voltages should be, in the realm of error, *was most helpful.*  Here's another example:



Bill_Bright said:


> Me being an advanced user (or a qualified electronics technician for that matter) has nothing to do with this - except maybe to explain how I know what I am talking about here.



Self-aggrandizement is not needed, to make a point.

Later, after I'm belittled, told I should't post as a latecomer, and 





EarthDog said:


> Shows up in new posts... I love train wrecks...


 (and other digs) for suggesting another software, other than AIDA 64 used by the OP, you chime in post #28 that *you like FREE HWiNFO64 better*, and point out discrepancies between that and my suggested FREE "Speccy".  *You admit to using software.  How IRONIC!*

Now you say the sensors are cosmetic and don't serve a useful function post #43. 


Bill_Bright said:


> they are there for "marketing reasons", not any "technical" or "operational" reasons.



So are they broken?  Hey, I want a refund.

You then go on to say I keep defending the use of software. Yes, let everyone see it.

Yes, I will continue to defend and advocate the use of software to help diagnose potential PSU problems.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 24, 2018)

Lack of reported rails? Again, what are you talking about? I didn't miss anything. I replied to the question which was about _"checking the voltage" of the XFX 550W PSU at each connector_. That is the 3 rails I mentioned in my first reply!!!!!!

I further elaborated in a later post, in part because of the confusion and misinformation you were presenting.

Riding _your_ coat tails? 

You seem delusional here and I am sorry about that. The point about oscilloscopes was to illustrate the same point I've talking about from the beginning that you just don't seem able to grasp - and that is about conclusively verifying if a PSU is good or bad. Yes, software can "help" diagnose - I NEVER said it couldn't - yet you seem to keep arguing that I have said otherwise.  But "help" diagnose and "conclusively" diagnosing are two different things. And important to distinguish if the desire is to find out what actually is wrong before spending money on something else!



jsfitz54 said:


> So are they broken? Hey, I want a refund.


I don't know. Get yourself a multimeter and find out. That will tell you if the sensor and software are accurate.

Of course, it is not likely the multimeter can measure ripple since most multimeters don't. So you will need to get yourself an oscilloscope or power supply analyzer to confirm one way or another. Or you could just swap in a known good supply to find out conclusively.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 24, 2018)

The very first post by the OP, only indicates a 12v measure.
When did you first ask him what the other 2 measurements were, as an aid to assist him?


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 24, 2018)

What is your point here? It seems like you are just trying to argue about anything. 

His first post indicates a lot more than just 12V. He gave "examples" but all of those voltages, except the +12V are seen on the motherboard only, not as PSU supplied voltages.

But most importantly, he specifically asked (my *bold underline* added), 





> Is it possible to evaluate the actual conditions of my XFX 550W PRO SERIES *by checking the voltage* offered *in each connector*


You cannot use software to check voltages at a PSU's connector. I explained what voltages a PSU outputs, and their allowed tolerances. Sorry if that was not good enough for you.

If the OP replies and asks for my information, I will reply. Otherwise, I really am out of here.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 25, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> What is your point here?



You did not ask him about his problem or what were his other readings until I broached the subject.
I asked about his specific problem by pointing out that he was not looking at the full picture.
2 major voltage points were missing.
He never got back to anyone until I made it obvious about the lack of response.  I'm not claiming anything on my part as to why he finally responded but he started another post prior to this one getting a response.  Earthdog prodded him to respond to this thread in the other thread.
Post #2 and 6: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/ssd-adata-raid-0-with-other-ssd.241773/#post-3803559
"lol that's true! Last time, it had only 3 answers haha. That is what i call a debate haha"
You can Google all the info you provided.  Does this example speak to his specific needs, most likely not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)
You didn't personalize your response to his specific need.  There was a lack of information on his part that went unrecognized by you and others.
I did complement you on providing information as to what proper readings should be. That part was great.
*The wall of text written by you and others to anyone that has basic needs is overwhelming, standoffish and uninviting.
Never mind your technical prowess.*
There are a ton of PSU questions in the archives here.  Everything you answered has already been done.
New(er) members need softer handling.  I don't know that he's not a minor. I don't know his comfort level.
You can tell me, "stop screwing with the software and get out your meter" and I understand.  I've been around the block a few times.
This site is getting that "Elitist" feel and I feel it drags things down.  Especially when I get rebuffed for trying to make it easier by suggesting a secondary software in addition to the one he used.  I'm also OK with you saying you prefer one software for any given reason over another but I should not be rebuked for doing so.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Feb 25, 2018)

i hear software is a decent tool for checking PSU's....has anyone tried any


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 25, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> He never got back to anyone until I made it obvious about the lack of response.


Lol, see post 31. I checked at that time to see when the OP logged in. When i wrote that, he saw the first two posts of this thread. Anything after he could not have seen as he hadnt logged in until l shortly after that and started another thread. In that thread, i posted and encouraged him to check out this thread again as you noticed. Dont flatter yourself fitzy... he hadnt seen this at the time. 

Also, the posts that were deleted of yours from here were the ones with personal insults. Perhaps there was relevant info there too, but, its what happens when you do that.


----------



## jsfitz54 (Feb 25, 2018)

EarthDog said:


> Lol, see post 31. I checked at that time to see when the OP logged in. When i wrote that, he saw the first two posts of this thread. Anything after he could not have seen as he hadnt logged in until l shortly after that and started another thread. In that thread, i posted and encouraged him to check out this thread again as you noticed. Dont flatter yourself fitzy... he hadnt seen this at the time.
> 
> Also, the posts that were deleted of yours from here were the ones with personal insults. Perhaps there was relevant info there too, but, its what happens when you do that.



You don't have to be logged in to read posts here.  I already said I make no claims as to why he finally responded.  Is that not clear?


----------



## EarthDog (Feb 25, 2018)

jsfitz54 said:


> You don't have to be logged in to read posts here.


Indeed you dont, my bad. However, you are making an assumption he read it while not logged in (and appear to be trying to take credit/setting a record straight for something nobody but you really gives a crap about)! Maybe it was, maybe it wasnt. But nobody cares either way, i assure you. 



jsfitz54 said:


> I already said I make no claims as to why he finally responded. Is that not clear?


Oh, you didnt???? What i quoted of yours above means something different than what the words say? Surely reads like a claim as to why he responded... ...and yes, the next sentence said the opposite. So....go with that?? Confused.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Feb 25, 2018)

jboydgolfer said:


> i hear software is a decent tool for checking PSU's....has anyone tried any


 

But apparently it would be *"IRONIC!*" to do so - at least for me to use hardware information software. I guess programs like the suggested "FREE"  Speccy and HWiNFO64 (which, BTW is also "FREE" as clearly indicated on the link he even included ) can only be used by someone like me to check voltages.  They are not something someone like me would use to check for the OS version, CPU specs and utilization, motherboard specs, graphics specs, installed RAM amounts, RAM specs or RAM utilization, SMART status, system temps and a whole lot more. Yeah, that would sure be "*IRONIC*". 

*****

And to address the accusations placed against me, "I will say it LOUDER"  this time, I did answer the OP's questions in my first reply.

(1) He asked, is it possible to evaluate the voltages at a PSU's *connectors*? 
I answered how to conclusively evaluate voltages, what voltages should be there, and the allowed tolerances which are needed when "evaluating" voltages.

(2) He asked, is there any other program to do this? 
I answered that too by saying the only ways to conclusively evaluate a PSU's voltages are with test equipment or, alternatively, swapping in a good PSU. 

My answer indeed addressed his specific need based on the questions ask. I added additional information later for clarification after unnecessary and confusing information was added. 

Please note I didn't "personalize" my response in the 2nd part of this reply to the "specific needs" of the intended recipient  because this thread has already gone ugly enough.


----------

