# The Saga Of 'Star Citizen,' A Video Game That Raised $300 Million—But May Never Be Ready To Play



## R0H1T (May 8, 2019)

Surprised this didn't make it to TPU front page 


> t’s October 2018 and 2,000 video game fanatics are jammed into Austin’s Long Center for the Performing Arts to get a glimpse of _Star Citizen_, the sprawling online multiplayer game being made by legendary designer Chris Roberts. Most of the people here helped to pay for the game’s development—on average, $200 each, although some backers have given thousands. An epic sci-fi fantasy, _Star Citizen_ was supposed to be finished in 2014. But after seven years of work, no one—least of all Roberts—has a clue as to when it will be done. But despite the disappointments and delays, this crowd is cheering for Roberts. They roar as the 50-year-old Englishman jumps onto the stage and a big screen lights up with the latest test version of _Star Citizen_.
> 
> The demo starts small: Seeing through the eyes of the in-game character, the player wakes up in his living quarters, gets up and brews a cup of coffee. Applause quickly turns to laughter when the game promptly crashes. While his underlings scramble to get the demo running again, a practiced Roberts smoothly fills minutes of dead air by screening a commercial for the Kraken, a massive war machine spaceship. Eventually the Kraken, like all the starships that Roberts sells, will be playable in _Star Citizen_. At least that’s the hope. But for $1,650 it could be yours, right away.
> 
> ...


https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattpe...ed-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play/


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## kastriot (May 8, 2019)

I remember duke nuke  forever when it was out people had vertigo for 2-3 day  aftewr playing it for 15 min so yeah this one is same  c**p.


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## ShurikN (May 8, 2019)

kastriot said:


> I remember duke nuke  forever when it was out people had vertigo for 2-3 day  aftewr playing it for 15 min so yeah this one is same  c**p.


At least that game came out. This one, the way it's being (mis)managed, will most likely never see full release, and definitely not with everything that was promised...


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## DeathtoGnomes (May 8, 2019)

damn thats a long read.


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## Easo (May 8, 2019)

You should see the threads this story made on Star Citizen reddit. It was quite a sad sight.


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## londiste (May 8, 2019)

Read through the story. I do not really get the point.

There seems to be 2 main complaints:
1. It has taken 7 years and there is no full release. There are playable alpha bits of everything. Feature creep is hell of a thing, especially when they passed from tens to hundreds of millions.
2. They are selling ships for large amounts of money. Well, getting large amounts of money in general. Beyond hinting at buyers being idiots, why shouldn't RSI do that?

Yes, I funded Star Citizen for whatever the basic amount was. I strongly dislike the ship selling and insurance schemes etc. Unfortunately that is the spirit of the age right now and there is not much I can do about it. The bits of game that are playable are clearly very polished visually, basic mechanics are largely in place and the games are progressing.

Edit:
Personal life is a strange thing to drag into discussion about Star Citizen. Previous failed developments are a two-way thing, I loved Freelancer and Wing Commander movie was quite watchable for me.

I mean, dude definitely has vision. Maybe not the right management chops but I am not convinced that there are signs of failure yet. The "bad" example of getting the artist to do the shield effect just right does not sound bad at all to me, just the opposite. As long as they are able to fund their development this should turn out just fine.


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## blobster21 (May 8, 2019)

Is it possible to add a tldnr; for the people passing by ?


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## dj-electric (May 8, 2019)

Here's a tl;dnr - Star Citizen is possibly the most enthusiastic PC game project of all time with an incredibly long feature list, being simultaneously developed by about 5 small-medium sized studios around the globe. They were busy for about 3 years in just getting the (Then) Cryengine to cooperate with this kind of MMO space simulation. The teams reverse engineered the engine a lot to make it fit the project. Now days features get added in a stable, yet small in a microcosm of feature list they build. Will they ever finish it? I don't think anybody can know by now.


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## dorsetknob (May 8, 2019)

many View this as a Digital Ponzi game Development


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## Vayra86 (May 8, 2019)

This kinda reads like the discussion on this game over a year ago. And when it pops up again every time CIG announces a new fund raiser.

Still just sitting back and taking it all in, if it gets to the finish line, awesome. If it doesn't, thanks for trying I suppose. What I've seen so far, I would classify as 'promising'. It takes long, yes. We know it takes long. I also know people are impatient and a large portion of the MMO fanbase has mental issues and problems with impulsiveness and discipline (I could write books full of examples from many MMOs...). They're taking advantage of that, and at the same time, people are responsible for it themselves. Those lawsuits for refunds after spending thousands of dollars... that is looney bin material from beginning to end. The real question there is why did you spend it in the first place, and the answer is probably some sort of therapist.

Much of the dissatisfaction you read comes from exactly those people. They're extremely vocal about something that they never really had anyway, and act like someone stole from them - clearly people who cannot read fine print. I think there is some irony in all of this as well; it is exactly _because these people keep funding more, _that Roberts never gets a reality check and is forced to make choices. Right now he's probably still thinking 'what other pockets of air can we put in that store?'

As for managerial skills. The man's track record isn't fantastic; yet on the other hand it is filled with _finished _projects. You may or may not like the state of them, but still. He's doing better than Molyneux and that guy even still released Black&White anyway. So... relax, sit back, and enjoy your popcorn


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## Ferrum Master (May 8, 2019)

I play it now often after 3.5 patch. It is not that bad. I am having fun despite the bugs. 

The development sticks to the plan. It is clearly shown what and when.


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## XiGMAKiD (May 8, 2019)

They don't need to finish it quickly because they got the money and now all they have to do is doing something that if meaningful will deliver something to the backers and if not they can get away with something like "we are too ambitious and we failed, sorry".


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## rtwjunkie (May 8, 2019)

kastriot said:


> I remember duke nuke  forever when it was out people had vertigo for 2-3 day  aftewr playing it for 15 min so yeah this one is same  c**p.


So in addition to bringing up something that doesn’t even have a nexus to the topic, you bring ip some onscure factoid about vertigo that I never experienced nor has anyone else I know who played that game.


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## Splinterdog (May 8, 2019)

Roberts has a moral duty to divulge how much he and his family receive from the crowd funding. I'm not suggesting that there's fraud, but a show of good faith always goes a long way.


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## AlienIsGOD (May 8, 2019)

kastriot said:


> I remember duke nuke  forever when it was out people had vertigo for 2-3 day  aftewr playing it for 15 min so yeah this one is same  c**p.


lol smoke some more dude........


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## Vayra86 (May 8, 2019)

XiGMAKiD said:


> They don't need to finish it quickly because they got the money and now all they have to do is doing something that if meaningful will deliver something to the backers and if not they can get away with something like "we are too ambitious and we failed, sorry".



Well you can rest assured this was Roberts' last sort of successful fundraiser then. And all those devs involved... man. That would be some real damage. I don't know, it just doesn't seem plausible. Given what they have already today, they could almost just hand the project over or even sell the IP. All those man hours, the lore, the code is definitely not going straight into the bin.

I sincerely believe that Roberts is just a man with lots of energy and a strong drive, a bit like Elon Musk, both are micro managers and have a very detailed vision of what they want. I think it needs no clarification that Musk does the job a tad better, maybe even in full reverse, with a massive task that gets trimmed back from time to time.


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## moproblems99 (May 8, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Well you can rest assured this was Roberts' last sort of successful fundraiser then. And all those devs involved... man. That would be some real damage. I don't know, it just doesn't seem plausible. Given what they have already today, they could almost just hand the project over or even sell the IP. All those man hours, the lore, the code is definitely not going straight into the bin.
> 
> I sincerely believe that Roberts is just a man with lots of energy and a strong drive, a bit like Elon Musk, both are micro managers and have a very detailed vision of what they want. I think it needs no clarification that Musk does the job a tad better, maybe even in full reverse, with a massive task that gets trimmed back from time to time.



What they both lack is the notion that perfection is not achievable.  Perfection is a moving goal post that never stops.  Large Projects need an initial fixed goal post to get the initial product out the door so that investors get paid.  After that, you rely on iterative improvements to chase perfection.

If you refuse to launch a product until it is perfect, you will never fully launch it.  This is more scoped to the software domain than physical product.


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## theFOoL (May 8, 2019)

I knew this would happen. Eversince the developer made this and it was delayed so many times due to funding issues. I wish this would be completed but at least I had fun with a mod for a freelancer named Tow "Tides of War" a Star Wars Mod









						TOW Videos
					

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




					www.youtube.com


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## Dinnercore (May 8, 2019)

I´ve been one of the first backers of StarCitizen and from the start I knew this would A) take ages and B) may not even be completed ever.

But there was the slight chance that the many ideas would eventually form into a playable experience and what I did was bet on that chance. It was worth it for me to throw money down that way just to try to get a game that would be as immersive and joyful as I hoped it to be.
And after I played the alpha last year and went back to check it out this year I dropped more money on it because parts of the dream are done. They work and I can tell you walking up to my ship the first time on that station, climbing in and taking of with the looks, sounds and the feel of everything brought many tears to my eyes.
This already is an experience for me that is unmatched by current games and yes I have played elite and other stuff and funnily enough, these games like elite have finished content and many things to do yet still feel bland and boring to me. I can´t stand those, but in StarCitizen my immersion sucks a special kind of atmosphere in, it just feels 'real' in a sense.

Whatever will come out of it next, I already got paid back more than the 400$ I spend on it. 400$ for multiple moments of intense goosebumps, and whoa WTH moments. Tears of joy and awe. I´m in love. Yes many or even most people will not understand that since it is just my personal attachment to the game. But for me, the last 400$ I spend on modern titles and games like elite felt far more wasted than the 400$ I threw at this unfinished game.

Long story short, It may never finish but it is already 'ready to play' for me. You can have a lot of fun already. But this applies to a niche of players, like me, who look for a believable, immersive experience filled with atmosphere. Btw flying with high end joysticks is kind of mandatory for the experience, I mean common if you drop multiple hunderts of dollars on the game itself atleast get a joystick instead of trying to find any fun with a cheap controller.


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## Ferrum Master (May 8, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> Long story short



Are you in our TPU org? I haven't seen anyone online ever.


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## Deleted member 158293 (May 8, 2019)

Funny...

ALL good active multiplayer games are perpetually in development and will never be "Ready to play".

League of Legends being a prime example, as soon as development will stop, the game will die as people get bored after figuring out the mins & maxes.  It has to keep changing to keep player interest.


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## R-T-B (May 8, 2019)

londiste said:


> I mean, dude definitely has vision. Maybe not the right management chops but I am not convinced that there are signs of failure yet. The "bad" example of getting the artist to do the shield effect just right does not sound bad at all to me, just the opposite. As long as they are able to fund their development this should turn out just fine.



The most disturbing reality to me is the money is mostly gone, and the game hasn't left Alpha.  Let everything else fall aside, that's damning.  That's no time to be messing with shield cosmetics.


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## 64K (May 8, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> The most disturbing reality to me is the money is mostly gone, and the game hasn't left Alpha.  Let everything else fall aside, that's damning.  That's no time to be messing with shield cosmetics.



But the money keeps rolling in. Around 30 million dollars a year.


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## R-T-B (May 8, 2019)

64K said:


> But the money keeps rolling in. Around 30 million dollars a year.



That...  isn't what I'd call wise, considering he just nearly literally burned quite a ton more than that, but hey, that's just me.  Who questions the swarm anyways?  BUY BUY BUY.


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## 64K (May 8, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> That...  isn't what I'd call wise, considering he just nearly literally burned quite a ton more than that, but hey, that's just me.  Who questions the swarm anyways?  BUY BUY BUY.



Wise or not it's still money. One day the game will finished an it will probably be one of the greatest PC games ever made.


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## moproblems99 (May 8, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> But for me, the last 400$ I spend on modern titles and games like elite felt far more wasted than the 400$ I threw at this unfinished game.



I don't know anything about Star Citizen.  I won't support it until he reigns himself in but I 100% agree with you about that quote.  Good games are hard to come by now.  Most everything is just 'how fast and how little attention and resources can we put into this and still make money.'



64K said:


> One day the game will finished an it will probably be one of the greatest PC games ever made.



That certainly is a possibility but knowing what we know, I give it a higher chance of having development stop due to lack of money.  IF it gets finished, I have no doubts it will likely be one of the greatest games ever.  Assuming you like space themed sims/do it all games.  It can't not be given the breadth and scope of what they are trying to do.  

But, that breadth and scope, is the biggest reason it has the chance to run out of money and stall.  Plus, that breadth and scope don't seem to stop growing.  I would say they grow faster than the money comes in now.

The fact they don't have a full beta, heck even a full alpha is hugely concerning.  Not sure about some of the biggest AAA titles, but I would think that $300mil ought to be enough to get to alpha stage.


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## 64K (May 8, 2019)

But the money is still rolling in. Cloud Imperium is employing 500 people to develop this game. If it was a scam then why waste so much money on employees? Roberts could just pocket the extra money.


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## sepheronx (May 8, 2019)

My friend spent $500 on this kickstarter for a special kind of ship.  Don't know much about it but I ask him at least every 3 months or so about the game.  So far, he feels dissapointed.  Hopefully it does finish so he gets his ship.


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## erocker (May 8, 2019)

Lol. THE CONCERN!!!! Every year, this time someone writes an article telling people how to think and it gets posted. It's perpetual and a great exercise in expunging independent thought.

*I mean, I do agree that things definitely haven't been managed optimally. It's taking a long damn time.


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## 64K (May 8, 2019)

People get frustrated with how long Star Citizen is taking and they don't understand where all of the money went but some games are expensive to make. Heck, Destiny took 500 million dollars to develop.


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## Vario (May 8, 2019)

64K said:


> People get frustrated with how long Star Citizen is taking and they don't understand where all of the money went but some games are expensive to make. Heck, Destiny took 500 million dollars to develop.


The problem is the business model seems to be selling virtual ships and not actually selling a game.


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## moproblems99 (May 8, 2019)

64K said:


> But the money is still rolling in. Cloud Imperium is employing 500 people to develop this game. If it was a scam then why waste so much money on employees? Roberts could just pocket the extra money.



I never said scam.  It is clearly being mis-mananged.  Roberts probably has every desire in the world to make the greatest game ever.  But his inability to put a clamp on ambition and build a game has a very high chance of dooming him.

Money may be rolling in now but for how long?  Every time Roberts needs more money, they do a fundraiser promising new stuff.  Which of course adds more time, which means more money which means another fundraiser will be needed because each fundraiser is covering money for promises from the last fundraiser.  If this was a hedge fund, it would be called a Ponzi Scheme.

Again, I really hope he can get is shit together because it will likely be a fantastic game.  But he needs to learn how to stop promising.  His money is going to run out at some point.  Hopefully, he has a product that fits the expense.

GTA V cost less than $140 mil.  And that was for a complete game for Playstation, XBox, and PC.  They are double that now and don't even have an alpha of the game they promised if they made it to $100 mil.


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## Vario (May 8, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I never said scam.  It is clearly being mis-mananged.  Roberts probably has every desire in the world to make the greatest game ever.  But his inability to put a clamp on ambition and build a game has a very high chance of dooming him.
> 
> Money may be rolling in now but for how long?  Every time Roberts needs more money, they do a fundraiser promising new stuff.  Which of course adds more time, which means more money which means another fundraiser will be needed because each fundraiser is covering money for promises from the last fundraiser.  If this was a hedge fund, it would be called a Ponzi Scheme.
> 
> ...


Eventually people will stop buying the ships and then they will run out of cash.


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## rtwjunkie (May 8, 2019)

Vario said:


> Eventually people will stop buying the ships and then they will run out of cash.


Whether because of no more desire for ships or something else, eventually people’s limits will be reached and I fear you may be right about no mor influx of cash after that.  

Roberts is clearly not suited to heading a company.  He is a case of the developer needing a publisher to keep them on task.


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## moproblems99 (May 8, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> He is a case of the developer needing a publisher to keep them on task.



It's always a red flag (to me) when a creative is at the helm.  Doubly so when they are incredibly passionate about what they are doing.  When you working on your love, it is hard to make those tough decisions that need to be made.


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## 64K (May 8, 2019)

But the thing is he's not. He's just not.


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## Darmok N Jalad (May 9, 2019)

Hopefully they release a stable version someday, even if the whole vision is incomplete. I think there’s a market for something like that, where fans can commit years to a game knowing the adventure will grow. A stable release would be an immense boost of confidence. 

Not to get off in the weeds, but I wish we could see more studios expand on old work to make these mass open worlds. Like Destiny 2 should have expanded off Destiny so all of both worlds were still accessible. Instead they torched what made the game great.


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## moproblems99 (May 9, 2019)

64K said:


> But the thing is he's not. He's just not.



He's not what?


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## R-T-B (May 9, 2019)

64K said:


> Wise or not it's still money. One day the game will finished an it will probably be one of the greatest PC games ever made.



If the money keeps coming sure.  But the stream is not infinite, it's actually drying up.


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## 64K (May 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> If the money keeps coming sure.  But the stream is not infinite, it's actually drying up.



But it's not drying up. Gaming whales we keep this project going.


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## kapone32 (May 9, 2019)

The thing with Star Citizen is that I really looked forward to it. Then Squadron 52 was announced and got me even more hyped. Unfortunately Elite Dangerous is playable and is the exact same concept. Eve Online already does some of what Star Citizen promises as well. Then you have the  X series that has so much content it is not funny. It has been 7 years and games like Everspace are great. It is to the point where I updated my PC the other day and did not bother to re-install the launcher. It may be 2020 before this game gets released but I am not holding my breath.


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## Vayra86 (May 9, 2019)

64K said:


> But it's not drying up. Gaming whales we keep this project going.



Perhaps for a little while, but all good things come to an end someday.

There is another problem though. How will they monetize the PU. That question remains shady at best, and I have a feeling people won't like the harsh reality of it, the moment they get to see that in all its glory might be the game's demise. Its either going to be pay to win, or its pay to play. And I won't even mention all those ships that were purchased and will be translated into organizations with varying strength. People might have the idea its going to be another EVE, think again, because the concept of this game totally does not suit that type of scale and again, this will destroy a large part of the fanbase at the same time.

This is the biggest red flag for me. In the early days you could read 'ship insurance' as a subscription model of sorts that could/would scale alongside your playtime. But today I'm not so sure that's going to be enough. After all, if you can make all the currency 'by playing', ship insurance kinda falls away as a realistic and only monetization and income - and if you can only earn it through real money, bad players will be gone after a month of having blown up ships and still being at rock bottom + lost money in the process. They'll need more. Skins/cosmetics is another dead end because really, those are inherent to the ship models themselves already. So what's left? Paid DLC and content updates in a persistent MMO? Not gonna happen given their pace of releasing content and again it will fragment the playerbase. What remains is a big question mark.



64K said:


> People get frustrated with how long Star Citizen is taking and they don't understand where all of the money went but some games are expensive to make. Heck, Destiny took 500 million dollars to develop.



Yeah right. Only 2,5 million of that was budgeted annually since 2010 towards actual development of the game. The rest was _marketing._ And it shows, Destiny 1 barely had content.

I think World of Warcraft is more interesting comparison to make.
Vivendi stated it cost 63 million dollars to make over a period of 4.5 years. - not corrected for inflation! And 4.5~5 years is considered _looong_ in game development.


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## R-T-B (May 9, 2019)

erocker said:


> THE CONCERN!!!! Every year, this time someone writes an article telling people how to think and it gets posted.



This article is careful to distance itself from telling you whether or not the purchases are justified, meaning its not telling you how to think.  I'd suggest reading it as it's very well written.



Vayra86 said:


> Perhaps for a little while, but all good things come to an end someday.



My concern in the liquid funds as stated here are already showing signs of that.



kapone32 said:


> Unfortunately Elite Dangerous is playable and is the exact same concept.



This.  So much this.  Elite Dangerous is Star Citizen done competently.  Is it perfect?  No.  But I promise you it'll be a lot more perfect than whatever Star Citizen puts out when it comes out with a strange development waste/model like this.  Why?  Because for all it's faults, at least Elite has the brains to know perfection cannot be achieved.


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## Vayra86 (May 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> This.  So much this.  Elite Dangerous is Star Citizen done competently.  Is it perfect?  No.  But I promise you it'll be a lot more perfect than whatever Star Citizen puts out when it comes out with a strange development waste/model like this.  Why?  Because for all it's faults, at least Elite has the brains to know perfection cannot be achieved.



Competently? They've made some pretty nasty adjustments in content, pushing a lot into paid expansions. It says alot about game development and promises made  Its almost impossible to scope such a project accurately.

I mean what did the Vanilla game really have? Two starbase models, a handful of ships and lots of RNG.


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## moproblems99 (May 9, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> There is another problem though. How will they monetize the PU.



Don't forget you can buy land!


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## Vario (May 9, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Perhaps for a little while, but all good things come to an end someday.
> 
> There is another problem though. How will they monetize the PU. That question remains shady at best, and I have a feeling people won't like the harsh reality of it, the moment they get to see that in all its glory might be the game's demise. Its either going to be pay to win, or its pay to play. And I won't even mention all those ships that were purchased and will be translated into organizations with varying strength. People might have the idea its going to be another EVE, think again, because the concept of this game totally does not suit that type of scale and again, this will destroy a large part of the fanbase at the same time.
> 
> ...


Whatever game comes out from this is not going to be a game that is going to be fun for anyone to play.  Peasants won't play it because the content will be behind paywalls or it will be repetitive fly back and forth grinding to do the same emergent quests repeatedly.  Whales won't have any peasants to impress with their extravagant lack of impulse control.  The enjoyable content will not be there.  At best it will be like how GTA Online is now.


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## R-T-B (May 9, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Competently?



Yes.  I didn't say "perfectly, or even " done well," I said competently, meaning at baseline, most of what they said is finally there.  It was/sometimes still is bumpy but it exists.



Vayra86 said:


> I mean what did the Vanilla game really have? Two starbase models, a handful of ships and lots of RNG.



It was more like six starbase models, but I am looking at the end result today.  It was admitedly a rough launch.

Still, it's budget was much much less.  And yet there is a playable game.  That is the difference.


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## moproblems99 (May 9, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> Still, it's budget was much much less. And yet there is a playable game. That is the difference.



I don't think you can just compare budgets.  I don't know anything about Elite Dangerous but I would surmise the scope, if not just the vision, are probably not comparable.  If we wanted to look at budget only, I would look at GTAV and say: I expect 1.5x to 2x GTAV.  Either in content, scale, or something like that.



64K said:


> Heck, Destiny took 500 million dollars to develop.



By the way, according to wiki, Destiny only cost less than $140mil to develop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop


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## R-T-B (May 10, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> I don't think you can just compare budgets. I don't know anything about Elite Dangerous but I would surmise the scope, if not just the vision, are probably not comparable.



They are actaully quite comparable.  If anythingz the Elite Dangerous Universe is far (exponentionally, it's the complete milky way to scale) bigger but utilizes RNG to achieve that.  I'm pretty sure that's part of why they succeeded whereas SC has "almost 2 planets and a handfull of moons and asteroids" done.


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## danbert2000 (May 10, 2019)

I'm in for $35 since forever ago. I actually have to make sure I still have access to my RSI account to get the game if/when it actually releases. If Squadron 42 comes out and is as entertaining as Freelancer was, I will be tickled pink. If it happens to have a huge persistent MMO going on in the background, even better. If it never comes out, well, I spent that $35 like 8 years ago. I'll be fine. I'll be a bit mad, but at least they tried.

People buying $500 ships for an unreleased game though... please stop. That's ridiculous. Make sure the loss if this game never comes out is akin to buying a shitty game, not buying a shitty game and console that break immediately.


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## moproblems99 (May 10, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> They are actaully quite comparable.  If anythingz the Elite Dangerous Universe is far (exponentionally, it's the complete milky way to scale) bigger but utilizes RNG to achieve that.  I'm pretty sure that's part of why they succeeded whereas SC has "almost 2 planets and a handfull of moons and asteroids" done.



Ah, color me stupid.  I didn't think Elite Dangerous was that 'big'.  I really thought the scope of SC dwarfed most titles.


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## R-T-B (May 10, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Ah, color me stupid.  I didn't think Elite Dangerous was that 'big'.  I really thought the scope of SC dwarfed most titles.



The scope of Elite Dangerous is really all it has.  The gameplay is arguably more like a day as a freeway trucker than a video game at least in some of the common trade routes.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 10, 2019)

Freelancer was meant to be like Star Citizen in scope...then they kicked Roberts out...and narrowed it to mostly just a single player campaign experience.  Fast forward 15 years and Roberts in a position to make his original vision a reality.  I don't think he wants to squander the opportunity and the fact the game is still making a ton of money means there's still a lot of people willing to open their wallet to support that vision.  I hope he succeeds this time because what he's aiming to make is like the holy grail of sci-fi games: something too ambitious for publishers to bankroll.  If Roberts fails again, it will be decades before we see an immersive space sim.


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## bbmarley (May 10, 2019)

A video i watched earlier about Star Citizen


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## Deleted member 24505 (May 10, 2019)

I think he is a dreamer, who is fleecing others to fund his dream, which may never even arrive.


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## the54thvoid (May 10, 2019)

There are people defending the delay but the reality is, when I bought my $75 ship, way back, just after the crowdfunding stopped, it was said to be out in a couple of years. There was a very early roadmap that was missed. It's like Orwell's 1984 now, where it seems to be denied that was ever the case (destroy history to obscure the truth). But I'm not that patient, to wait 5,6,7 years for a game. There are many folks here who have found priorities change as we age and the older some of us get, the less inviting such an immersive game seems to be.

But, he's not a theif or a fraudster. He's simply a very driven, idealistic creative mind that doesn't know when to stop. And that is not good business. As Bob Ross used to say, you need to know when to leave things alone. Maybe there'll be a squirrel living in a nice little tree somewhere in the SC universe.


----------



## ShiBDiB (May 10, 2019)

Publishers exist for many reasons, but an understated one is keeping a studio focused. If Star Citizen had to answer to a publisher about the amount of feature creep that has occured it would be in a much better state than it is right now.


----------



## Ferrum Master (May 10, 2019)

ShiBDiB said:


> Publishers exist for many reasons, but an understated one is keeping a studio focused. If Star Citizen had to answer to a publisher about the amount of feature creep that has occured it would be in a much better state than it is right now.



We don't want a bad product and then bash again for being gimped...

For example how Eidos killed Deus Ex HR, by gimping it and thus making the story stupidly short and full of holes.


----------



## ShiBDiB (May 10, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> We don't want a bad product and then bash again for being gimped...
> 
> For example how Eidos killed Deus Ex HR, by gimping it and thus making the story stupidly short and full of holes.



Eh blaming publishers for bad games is overblown, unless a games release date gets pushed up drastically there's really no excuse in today's use of cookie cutter engines to not be able to meet deadlines. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the alternative being never ending feature creep being tacked onto a framework that barely works definitely isn't any better.

A game the size of SC is the perfect example of where DLC/Expansions should be used.


----------



## Ferrum Master (May 10, 2019)

ShiBDiB said:


> Eh blaming publishers for bad games is overblown, unless a games release date gets pushed up drastically there's really no excuse in today's use of cookie cutter engines to not be able to meet deadlines. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the alternative being never ending feature creep being tacked onto a framework that barely works definitely isn't any better.
> 
> A game the size of SC is the perfect example of where DLC/Expansions should be used.



Couch critique. 

Risking to kill off a franchise, a guaranteed income, with a bad product is greater. And in case with DX:HR, they did it, butchered a fine game in the core. Thus the announcement for not making sequel because it sold poor, disbanded studio. Well it is chicken or egg? Well... wasn't it an obvious outcome? Why did they hurry then?

For example Final Fantasy 15 was in the make like 10 years. Last DLC came out recently, thus making 13 year dev cycle? Isn't it a problem with perception of things? I am not hurrying anywhere either way.


----------



## 64K (May 10, 2019)

He is a dreamer but real game creators are. He just needs to be supervised.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I hope he succeeds this time because what he's aiming to make is like the holy grail of sci-fi games: something too ambitious for publishers to bankroll. If Roberts fails again, it will be decades before we see an immersive space sim.



Nobody wants him to fail (I hope).  People just want to make sure he doesn't get lost.



64K said:


> He is a dreamer but real game creators are.  He just needs to be supervised.



Exactly.  He has the chance to make the greatest game of all time.  If he fails, it will be a long time, if ever, that another attempt is made.


----------



## Sora (May 10, 2019)

Games doing fine, the usual shitpiece that the gaming journo's crap out for easy advertising revenue and the usual ignorant completely detached people who comment and opinionate over it.

SQ42's coming out in 2020 which will inject more cash into finishing SC, everything is on track, all money is accounted for as per german reporting regulations and the haters just continue to do narrow minded crap like cmpare it to elite flop.

the people who whinge about pledging probably should have kept track of the project and voted when the community decided to push the stretch goals and not release an unfinished product.



ShiBDiB said:


> Publishers exist for many reasons, but an understated one is keeping a studio focused. If Star Citizen had to answer to a publisher about the amount of feature creep that has occured it would be in a much better state than it is right now.



Publishers exist to make money.

nothing more.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2019)

Sora said:


> Games doing fine, the usual shitpiece that the gaming journo's crap out for easy advertising revenue and the usual ignorant completely detached people who comment and opinionate over it.
> 
> SQ42's coming out in 2020 which will inject more cash into finishing SC, everything is on track, all money is accounted for as per german reporting regulations and the haters just continue to do narrow minded crap like cmpare it to elite flop.
> 
> ...




If you are going to piss on people then you should proof read.


----------



## dorsetknob (May 10, 2019)

Sora said:


> Games doing fine, the usual shitpiece that the gaming journo's crap out for easy advertising revenue and the usual ignorant completely detached people who comment and opinionate over it.


And the people that "MIGHT" invest or invest further would like Opinions Independent of the developer who has an AVID interest in promoting his wares


----------



## Sora (May 10, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> If you are going to piss on people then you should proof read.



Pissing on people is your job, every time you make a comment about an active development studio doing work that you don't like is to piss on them.

Publishers are not there to reign anyone in, their job is to allow a product to reach markets it couldn't otherwise and plan marketting and events.

The only time a publisher has 'reigning in' control is when they have bought into the studio and many often lack the insight into what the product is intended to achieve.

The real scams are the rehashed trash game series that keep getting pumped out with no real evolution over the last, such as cod, battlefield and the assasins creed series.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 10, 2019)

Sora said:


> Publishers are not there to reign anyone in, their job is to allow a product to reach markets it couldn't otherwise and plan marketting and events.



I thought they only existed to make money?



Sora said:


> The real scams are the rehashed trash game series that keep getting pumped out with no real evolution



Don't disagree with you on that.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 11, 2019)

Sora said:


> The real scams are the rehashed trash game series that keep getting pumped out with no real evolution over the last, such as cod, battlefield and the assasins creed series.


Except you’re wrong on that. Some have evolved and basically reinvented themselves. Maybe if you weren’t armchair quarterbacking from the corner you’d know that.


----------



## Vya Domus (May 11, 2019)

I don't know if it's scam or not but I have to say, these guys figured out a really innovative way to keep drawing money in endlessly. That's impressive.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 11, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> I don't know if it's scam or not but I have to say, these guys figured out a really innovative way to keep drawing money in endlessly. That's impressive.



It can't be a scam because they do have something to show for it.  Just not as much as I would expect for nearly a third of a billion bucks.


----------



## Vario (May 11, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> I don't know if it's scam or not but I have to say, these guys figured out a really innovative way to keep drawing money in endlessly. That's impressive.


they are in the business of selling 2d and sometimes 3d models of space ships, its really lucrative.


----------



## R-T-B (May 11, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> If Roberts fails again, it will be decades before we see an immersive space sim.



I'm already playing one.  It's so real it even suffers from boredom.  It was mentioned earlier:  Elite Dangerous.


----------



## 64K (May 11, 2019)

Besides how many people Roberts is employing as evidence that Star Citizen isn't a scam there's also to take in consideration that he will probably make additional hundreds of millions of dollars when the games are finished and go for sale. He would be foolish to not finish the games. I think he wants the games to be epic and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Too many games get rushed out by Developers and have too many bugs and badly need polishing. I'm not a backer though and I can understand the frustration of all of the delays.

When he started out on these games he never expected to get 40 million dollars from backers and he asked the backers to vote on whether they wanted him and his team to expand on Star Citizen and most voted yes.  He's now raised 225 million dollars. The goals kept changing and time takes time but I'm not a backer and will just wait until the Squadron 42 is finished to buy it.


----------



## Vario (May 11, 2019)

64K said:


> Besides how many people Roberts is employing as evidence that Star Citizen isn't a scam there's also to take in consideration that he will probably make additional hundreds of millions of dollars when the games are finished and go for sale. He would be foolish to not finish the games. I think he wants the games to be epic and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Too many games get rushed out by Developers and have too many bugs and badly need polishing. I'm not a backer though and I can understand the frustration of all of the delays.
> 
> When he started out on these games he never expected to get 40 million dollars from backers and he asked the backers to vote on whether they wanted him and his team to expand on Star Citizen and most voted yes.  He's now raised 225 million dollars. The goals kept changing and time takes time but I'm not a backer and will just wait until the Squadron 42 is finished to buy it.


When RSI youtube channel features a new update, the update usually is something cosmetic and superficial like either a new ship advertisement or a change to the lighting or texture or sound effects rather than concrete gameplay development.  I doubt there will ever be much of a game from this, or atleast a game worth playing that isn't just eye candy and boredom.  Sure it isn't a scam as something is being built, but I don't think it is of much substance.  He makes enough money selling virtual ships, thats the core business model.


----------



## 64K (May 11, 2019)

Vario said:


> When RSI youtube channel features a new update, the update usually is something cosmetic and superficial like either a new ship advertisement or a change to the lighting or texture or sound effects rather than concrete gameplay development.  I doubt there will ever be much of a game from this, or atleast a game worth playing that isn't just eye candy and boredom.  Sure it isn't a scam as something is being built, but I don't think it is of much substance.  He makes enough money selling virtual ships, thats the core business model.



You may be right. I think I read that they took 46 million dollars more last year. They even offer a DLC for $27,000 that includes every ship in the game. Can you imagine spending $27,000 on a DLC? I guess if you were rich you wouldn't mind.


----------



## Chomiq (May 11, 2019)

You gave me $40 mil for nothing? Do you want to give me more? Yes?! *jackpot*

No studio in its right mind would fund this, but thx to the magic of crowdfunding thousands of people have entered the never ending saga of "but wait, there's more". As for $27,000 for a single DLC - I believe there are folks that payed much more in total before that DLC was announced. They also offered that DLC to people that have already spent more than a $1000 on the ingame items.



> The Legatus Pack is purchasable on this page, but to do so or even just to view its contents, you’ll need to have already paid $1,000 USD. Without that, you’ll need to take it up with Star Citizen’s Customer Service.


----------



## Sora (May 14, 2019)

64K said:


> You may be right. I think I read that they took 46 million dollars more last year. They even offer a DLC for $27,000 that includes every ship in the game. Can you imagine spending $27,000 on a DLC? I guess if you were rich you wouldn't mind.



This package is for an Organisation, which is star citizen lingo for a Guild.
multiple users put forth cash into a pool and buy what is essential a flight wing and carrier class ships to use.



Chomiq said:


> You gave me $40 mil for nothing? Do you want to give me more? Yes?! *jackpot*
> 
> No studio in its right mind would fund this, but thx to the magic of crowdfunding thousands of people have entered the never ending saga of "but wait, there's more". As for $27,000 for a single DLC - I believe there are folks that payed much more in total before that DLC was announced. They also offered that DLC to people that have already spent more than a $1000 on the ingame items.



As far as the game is concerned, German accounting/tax officials have no problem with whats going on and if anyone would complain about it its them.

Everything is above board is a thrid party is willing to inject additional funds to cover the finishing of the SP campaign, which in turn will fund the finalization of the MP universe once it goes for sale.



moproblems99 said:


> I thought they only existed to make money?



Reaching additional markets's sole purpose is to profit in those markets.

There are already some big wins in the crowdfunding / free of publisher drama scenario,  SC will be the largest and give studio's the courage to follow suit which is terrifying for publishers looking to fund and take a slice of the pie from the profits of smaller studios.

PSA: The Derek smart fanclub are well known for faking reviews on glassdoor and there is no real way to confirm a person has worked with CIG or not,  a flaw that Lizzy Finnegan stumbled on and ruined her journalism career over when she did the escapist article in 2015.



rtwjunkie said:


> Except you’re wrong on that. Some have evolved and basically reinvented themselves. Maybe if you weren’t armchair quarterbacking from the corner you’d know that.



No, they really haven't.

What you see is DLC being sold as a new product in the series,  for example, the new Farcry is just what should have been an expansion pack for FC5 - no real improvement to gameplay or features.
Nothing has changed with battlefield gameplay, they just added a hd graphic pack and SJW content.
Assassins creed is still a climbing simulator, and has basically no real story direction since 3.

GTA5 was the last actual game which featured evolution over the previous product.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2019)

Sora said:


> There are already some big wins in the crowdfunding / free of publisher drama scenario, SC will be the largest and give studio's the courage to follow suit which is terrifying for publishers looking to fund and take a slice of the pie from the profits of smaller studios.



Unfortunately, humans can't hold their breath as long as will be necessary but I wish Star Citizen the best.  I would love to see nothing more than studios to take owner ship of their IP and Destiny.  Hope they have a solid plan.


----------



## Assimilator (May 14, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> And in case with DX:HR, they did it, butchered a fine game in the core.



How so?


----------



## Ferrum Master (May 14, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> How so?



Cut down the plot. There was an additional chapter meant to be set in Montreal in addition to Prague. They cut it, so leaving the plot with more holes than a swiss cheese and the game was really short.

Something like that... the microtransactions... well also a point.









						Deus Ex: Mankind Divided sequel is in development - PlayStation Universe
					

A Deus Ex: Mankind Divided sequel has been in development for over a year, according to an Eidos Montreal source …



					www.psu.com


----------



## XiGMAKiD (May 14, 2019)

I have seen post about how paying for DLC is robbery and how microtransaction ruins gaming world, but with SC that is somehow acceptable


----------



## kapone32 (May 14, 2019)

Sora said:


> This package is for an Organisation, which is star citizen lingo for a Guild.
> multiple users put forth cash into a pool and buy what is essential a flight wing and carrier class ships to use.
> 
> 
> ...




I cannot agree with Assassins Creed Black Flag, Origins and Odyssey are all great games on their own.


----------



## rtwjunkie (May 14, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> I cannot agree with Assassins Creed Black Flag, Origins and Odyssey are all great games on their own.


It’s obvious he has played none of them.  Like I said, armchair quarterbacking from the corner.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2019)

rtwjunkie said:


> It’s obvious he has played none of them.  Like I said, armchair wuarterbacking from the corner.



Clearly they are not hardcore enough.  Or ambitious enough.  Or delayed enough...


----------



## Vayra86 (May 14, 2019)

XiGMAKiD said:


> I have seen post about how paying for DLC is robbery and how microtransaction ruins gaming world, but with SC that is somehow acceptable



No, this is fine, these transactions are anything but 'micro'


----------



## R0H1T (May 14, 2019)

*Star Citizen sells 'Concept Motorcycles' at $36 and $48*


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (May 14, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> I don't know if it's scam or not but I have to say, these guys figured out a really innovative way to keep drawing money in endlessly. That's impressive.



I wish i could come up with something, £20,000,000 in bank the disappear



Chomiq said:


> You gave me $40 mil for nothing? Do you want to give me more? Yes?! *jackpot*
> 
> No studio in its right mind would fund this, but thx to the magic of crowdfunding thousands of people have entered the never ending saga of "but wait, there's more". As for $27,000 for a single DLC - I believe there are folks that payed much more in total before that DLC was announced. They also offered that DLC to people that have already spent more than a $1000 on the ingame items.



Really $27k for a non existent dlc? my word there are some retards still.


----------



## Vario (May 14, 2019)

R0H1T said:


> *Star Citizen sells 'Concept Motorcycles' at $36 and $48*


None of that content will make for a better game.  If this and eye candy is all they are developing, it won't be something worth playing let alone paying thousands of dollars for.  A proper sandbox game needs a compelling world with a lot of characters, machinery, and a plot to interact with.  If Rockstar's  Red Dead development team had focused on creating a million different horse varieties rather than creating an interesting world, it would not be a very good game.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2019)

Vario said:


> If Rockstar's Red Dead development team had focused on creating a million different horse varieties rather than creating an interesting world, it would not be a very good game.



Well, in fairness to RockStar, they were thinking about how long they had to delay the PC release so they could sucker in more people to buy it twice and keep the purchase price at full much longer.


----------



## Assimilator (May 14, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Cut down the plot. There was an additional chapter meant to be set in Montreal in addition to Prague. They cut it, so leaving the plot with more holes than a swiss cheese and the game was really short.
> 
> Something like that... the microtransactions... well also a point.
> 
> ...



So you're talking about Mankind Divided, not Human Revolutions...


----------



## Vario (May 14, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> Well, in fairness to RockStar, they were thinking about how long they had to delay the PC release so they could sucker in more people to buy it twice and keep the purchase price at full much longer.


No one is forcing people to buy it twice.  I am just glad that there is an option to buy it on multiple platforms.  I don't own a PS4 nor an Xbox One.


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2019)

Vario said:


> No one is forcing people to buy it twice.  I am just glad that there is an option to buy it on multiple platforms.  I don't own a PS4 nor an Xbox One.



Remember, Chris Roberts said all you need to be able to play Star Citizen is the base $45 game.'

Although, I guess what he didn't tell you is that if everyone only bought the base game, they wouldn't have been able to build the Virtual Spaceship Dealership Simulator.


----------



## 64K (May 14, 2019)

I've been thinking all along that Star Citizen isn't a scam and it will be finished one day and be something very special for PC gamers. My faith got shaken a bit when Roberts started selling virtual plots of land a while back but I still believe the game will be finished one day.


----------



## Ferrum Master (May 14, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> So you're talking about Mankind Divided, not Human Revolutions...



Oh. My bad. I was thinking of the latest one.


----------



## wiyosaya (May 14, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> I´ve been one of the first backers of StarCitizen and from the start I knew this would A) take ages and B) may not even be completed ever.
> 
> But there was the slight chance that the many ideas would eventually form into a playable experience and what I did was bet on that chance. It was worth it for me to throw money down that way just to try to get a game that would be as immersive and joyful as I hoped it to be.
> And after I played the alpha last year and went back to check it out this year I dropped more money on it because parts of the dream are done. They work and I can tell you walking up to my ship the first time on that station, climbing in and taking of with the looks, sounds and the feel of everything brought many tears to my eyes.
> ...


As I understand it, this "story" is a rehash of a similarly poorly written article by The Escapist magazine a few years back. The Escapist was forced to take down that article. Perhaps CIG will file a lawsuit against Forbes, too, because if this is a rehash of the same tired arguments, it has little basis in reality. 








						Why is a video game website feuding with a crowdfunding superstar?
					

Why is a video game website feuding with a crowdfunding superstar?




					mashable.com
				



https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2017/...zen-articles-removed-from-the-escapist/27419/

BTW - what joystick are you using?


----------



## moproblems99 (May 14, 2019)

64K said:


> I've been thinking all along that Star Citizen isn't a scam and it will be finished one day



The only thing that will prevent the game from being finished is Roberts.  Either never stopping the scope creep and never releasing because it can't ever be finished or because it is still 'rough' and therefore not done.  I think the latter will likely be what holds him up.  He said it himself when he said something along the lines of I don't want to show anybody anything until it's perfect.  That will be what gets him.  A video game is never perfect.  It can always use tweaking.

But will he get something out the door in a B or B+ state instead of chasing the impossible perfection?


----------



## Dinnercore (May 15, 2019)

wiyosaya said:


> BTW - what joystick are you using?



I use the Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog with throttle and a single stick. Suits my ship very well, as with my connie I don´t need a two stick setup for max. dogfighting ability.


----------



## 64K (May 15, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> The only thing that will prevent the game from being finished is Roberts.  Either never stopping the scope creep and never releasing because it can't ever be finished or because it is still 'rough' and therefore not done.  I think the latter will likely be what holds him up.  He said it himself when he said something along the lines of I don't want to show anybody anything until it's perfect.  That will be what gets him.  A video game is never perfect.  It can always use tweaking.
> 
> But will he get something out the door in a B or B+ state instead of chasing the impossible perfection?



I think he will bring Squadron 42 in the A range at some point and that's all I really want. I have always heard that multiplayer games are much more challenging to make so I'm not sure how Star Citizen is going to turn out but I agree with your points. That's why I've said for years that Roberts needs to be supervised. He's got talent, creativity and knowledge about how to make a great game but he needs to be supervised.


----------



## Assimilator (May 15, 2019)

Ferrum Master said:


> Oh. My bad. I was thinking of the latest one.



You should probably go back and edit your posts then, because they are HELLA confusing for people like myself who are fans of the rebooted Deus Ex. Human Revolution was great, Mankind Divided far less so.


----------



## Ferrum Master (May 15, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> You should probably go back and edit your posts then, because they are HELLA confusing for people like myself who are fans of the rebooted Deus Ex. Human Revolution was great, Mankind Divided far less so.



you cannot do that, there's a time limit.


----------



## R-T-B (May 19, 2019)

Doom...  eternal?


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 6, 2019)

Here's another story, this time from Forbes (31/5/2019) about Star Citizen which doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I'd definitely give it a crack if I felt that it really would be finished by 2020.
This article is very well written too, and even if it's seen as scaremongering, alarm bells surely should be ringing.
*Exclusive: The Saga Of 'Star Citizen,' A Video Game That Raised $300 Million—But May Never Be Ready To Play*


----------



## phanbuey (Jun 6, 2019)

I have a friend who plays it, and it "looks", to the untrained eye, like it's pretty close.


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> I have a friend who plays it, and it "looks", to the untrained eye, like it's pretty close.


Like it's pretty close to being finished, you mean?


----------



## phanbuey (Jun 6, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> Like it's pretty close to being finished, you mean?



Yeah I meant there is FPS game play there, the ships are beautiful, there's a space fight mode, and you can fly around exploring and do  stuff in it now.  The core infrastructure is definitely in place to a 'playable' degree they just need to add some content and it would look like a finished game.

Still not sure i would shell out $$ for the ships tho.

It also needs some heavy optimization work, but otherwise it doesnt seem to be as bleak as the forbes story is making it out to be.


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 6, 2019)

Hold my beer...
Here's Bored Gamer about an hour ago, hinting at a possible release candidate, which means you may well be right.


----------



## Eskimonster (Jun 6, 2019)

When Starcitizen launched i was hyped, Im having a hard time beeing hyped over anything in Starcitizen now, the ships selling for large ammounts of money in a dubious way to make money.
In my mind this is a wrecked game, dead by no managment and no progress.
Love to see the game finnish, but i have no hopes.


----------



## bug (Jun 6, 2019)

Lol, this guy was fired before for being unable to follow through and we still have 5 pages of discussions when he does it again.

To me, things are quite simple: you want to fund software to show support, wait for it to at least reach beta first. And keep in mind buying finished products (yeah, that's still a thing) is also showing support.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 6, 2019)

I spent $24 on the Kickstarter, so glad I never spent more, haha. I won't be doing Kickstarter again.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 6, 2019)

Imo the best ship ever designed is the Borg cube, there is no need for streamlined ships in space, that's what shuttles are for. 

But any way, might be worth a look for just the cost of the base game without lining the shillsters pockets any more than necessary


----------



## Kursah (Jun 6, 2019)

I don't see anything wrong with funding via KS, I still back the occasional product or game that I feel catches my interest. Just have the common sense to realize its an investment in a gamble. No different from a volatile stock in my eyes, once you're in, you could lose it all. Or you could end up with something worth more than you paid and others have to pay more to get the same experience you do.

I haven't actually played SC in a while, but its come a long ways since I did. Hoping to see SQ42 released first in all honesty. And really, I'm not too worried at this point...this title's getting way too much attention, both good and bad. Clearly the marketing is working. It is taking a while sure, as an original backer I've followed the project, albeit loosely since what? 2011? 2012? I don't even know anymore. if it comes great, if it doesn't, well that's a wrap folks. 

One thing I don't agree with is folks spending thousands on ship designs, that being said I did purchase a cheap combat ship once years ago that was loads of fun to play with in the old arena commander module. I place the blame on folks buying the ships as much as CIG selling them in all honesty. The market is there and persists because folks keep buying these expensive ships and extra goodies hand over fist, can you blame CIG for wanting to continue selling these? If folks can't have the wherewithal and self control to manage their spending, that's not CIG's fault, but that does put them in the position of perspective many place on them the way I see it. But if that financial drive gets these teams spread throughout the world to release this product, then more power to everyone involved. At worst everyone loses their investment, be it time, money, expectations, etc. At best, we all get what we want. Most likely the actual result will be somewhere in the middle. Just have to keep waiting and see. 

Luckily I have enough other games to play to keep me entertained, between that and adulting and parenting lol. I do highly suggest folks look at Angels Fall First and Void Destroyer 2 if they want some cool games to play in the interim. Depends on what you want though, neither may be acceptable for some folks...but I find both to be pretty damn good.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> Yeah I meant there is FPS game play there, the ships are beautiful, there's a space fight mode, and you can fly around exploring and do  stuff in it now.  The core infrastructure is definitely in place to a 'playable' degree they just need to add some content and it would look like a finished game.
> 
> Still not sure i would shell out $$ for the ships tho.
> 
> It also needs some heavy optimization work, but otherwise it doesnt seem to be as bleak as the forbes story is making it out to be.



I have to disagree with this sentiment. I have been gaming on PC since 1982 and I have never seen a game take so long to reach Alpha stage. As I stated in this thread before Elite Dangerous is not very different in concept than Star Citizen but it has been released, patched, DLC and updates since Star Citizen has been on Alpha. Sure there is more to do now than 3 years ago. Star Citizen was supposed to bring gamer's back into the space sim genre but there have been plenty of games that have satisfied this itch. Maybe Roberts should hire the person that created Evochoron Mercenary.



lynx29 said:


> I spent $24 on the Kickstarter, so glad I never spent more, haha. I won't be doing Kickstarter again.



There is nothing wrong with Kickstarter in theory it is how it was used in this instance that is the problem.


----------



## phanbuey (Jun 6, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> I have to disagree with this sentiment. I have been gaming on PC since 1982 and I have never seen a game take so long to reach Alpha stage. As I stated in this thread before Elite Dangerous is not very different in concept than Star Citizen but it has been released, patched, DLC and updates since Star Citizen has been on Alpha. Sure there is more to do now than 3 years ago. Star Citizen was supposed to bring gamer's back into the space sim genre but there have been plenty of games that have satisfied this itch. Maybe Roberts should hire the person that created Evochoron Mercenary.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing wrong with Kickstarter in theory it is how it was used in this instance that is the problem.



Yeah but much larger studios have choked on procedurally generated space (ex. Mass Effect Andromeda)... Also elite dangerous doesn't have an FPS mode as far as I am aware; which makes it much smaller in scope.

The game took forever, but it's definitely not dead.  Plus many games take years and years to develop, they're just kept under wraps better.  Kingdom Come Deliverance released in 2018, they started development in 2012 - even before that as the studio was founded in 2011.  And their game is comparatively smaller in scope, but still when it released it was a buggy mess that needed patching.

The issue is professional investors understand this; have contracts and mechanisms in place to cover them (Warhorse had a Billionaire for an owner); but kickstarters want to see steady and insanely fast progress for not that much money...  At the end of the day, I think this was an over-scoped investor relations nightmare wrapped around what will be a decent game.


----------



## Khanivore (Jun 6, 2019)

IMO I think the game has come a long way, it's much more playable, has that awesome space-genre feel to it and it just looks absolutely stunning *drooling*. The only snag I see is the delay in completing the product... but I think - and hope! - that the project will be completed soon, at least in the next 2-3 years and Roberts and his fans could then finally sit back and truly admire the masterpiece: _Star Citizen_.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> Yeah but much larger studios have choked on procedurally generated space (ex. Mass Effect Andromeda)... Also elite dangerous doesn't have an FPS mode as far as I am aware; which makes it much smaller in scope.
> 
> The game took forever, but it's definitely not dead.  Plus many games take years and years to develop, they're just kept under wraps better.  Kingdom Come Deliverance released in 2018, they started development in 2012 - even before that as the studio was founded in 2011.  And their game is comparatively smaller in scope, but still when it released it was a buggy mess that needed patching.
> 
> The issue is professional investors understand this; have contracts and mechanisms in place to cover them (Warhorse had a Billionaire for an owner); but kickstarters want to see steady and insanely fast progress for not that much money...  At the end of the day, I think this was an over-scoped investor relations nightmare wrapped around what will be a decent game.




Chris Roberts was quoted as stating that he wanted "100 Star Systems in the Game" Elite Dangerous has mapped every star we can see in the night sky, There was a release from the makers of Elite that they were making a FPS mode for the game. If you look up the game Evochoron Mercenary you will see it was created by one person. The last point I will make is that no game has made as much money as Star Citizen (before launch) and the fact that you can buy Capital Ships for a game that is in Alpha and designed for fighter ship use justifies the sentiment that the focus of this project is raising money.



Khanivore said:


> IMO I think the game has come a long way, it's much more playable, has that awesome space-genre feel to it and it just looks absolutely stunning *drooling*. The only snag I see is the delay in completing the product... but I think - and hope! - that the project will be completed soon, at least in the next 2-3 years and Roberts and his fans could then finally sit back and truly admire the masterpiece: _Star Citizen_.




https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Development_Plans 

a nice link to show how a over arching space sim should be handled.


----------



## phanbuey (Jun 6, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> Chris Roberts was quoted as stating that he wanted "100 Star Systems in the Game" Elite Dangerous has mapped every star we can see in the night sky, There was a release from the makers of Elite that they were making a FPS mode for the game. If you look up the game Evochoron Mercenary you will see it was created by one person. The last point I will make is that no game has made as much money as Star Citizen (before launch) and the fact that you can buy Capital Ships for a game that is in Alpha and designed for fighter ship use justifies the sentiment that the focus of this project is raising money.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Evochoron Mercenary looks like it was made by one guy - but that's besides the point.

I see what your point is, they did amass an INSANE $496million over 8 years for a game that is estimated to cost $200 million...  And it's shady and full of mismanagement.

My point is Raising Money = Making Money when it comes to Kick-starter.  Whether you have a Billionaire investor pour a few hundred million into your studio a la Warhorse, or you do it by pimping one game and selling piecemeal since you don't have a game, like Chris Roberts.  At the end of the day it's money that's going into the studio - but they are developing a real product.

To me that still seems preferable than doing what EA does -- set the budget at a hard $100 million (Andromeda), work some people into retirement, and release an absolute turd of a game.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

phanbuey said:


> Evochoron Mercenary looks like it was made by one guy - but that's besides the point.
> 
> I see what your point is, they did amass an INSANE $496million over 8 years for a game that is estimated to cost $200 million...  And it's shady and full of mismanagement.
> 
> ...



EA is a bad example to use they are one of the worst gaming companies to work for. They have certainly fallen low from the days of Sierra. As much as I would like to agree that they are making a real product. Your point about lack of direction hits home but I still believe that selling capital ships for the insane prices they are at is nothing more than a grab.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jun 6, 2019)

Star Citizen has been very public with their plans.  I'll just drop this here.








						Star Citizen Roadmap - RSI
					

The Roberts Space Industries Star Citizen and Squadron 42 roadmaps.




					www.robertsspaceindustries.com


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

Divide Overflow said:


> Star Citizen has been very public with their plans.  I'll just drop this here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see that is an update one from the original that was supposed to be released in 2014. so now we have to wait until Q2 2020 for a beta of Squadron 42.


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 6, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> I see that is an update one from the original that was supposed to be released in 2014. so now we have to wait until Q2 2020 for a beta of Squadron 42.


I was hoping to give SQ42 a whirl before then as well. Oh well, I waited long enough for Black Mesa...


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> I was hoping to give SQ42 a whirl before then as well. Oh well, I waited long enough for Black Mesa...



I know what you mean I only have $45 invested so it's no biggie to me. Trust me when i say that it is not that I no longer want the game but I am being honest in saying that if Cyberpunk 2077 and Star Citizen got released on the same day I would not even look at SC.


----------



## Assimilator (Jun 6, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> Here's another story, this time from Forbes (31/5/2019) about Star Citizen which doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I'd definitely give it a crack if I felt that it really would be finished by 2020.
> This article is very well written too, and even if it's seen as scaremongering, alarm bells surely should be ringing.
> *Exclusive: The Saga Of 'Star Citizen,' A Video Game That Raised $300 Million—But May Never Be Ready To Play*



That's the same article linked in the first post of this thread...



Splinterdog said:


> Oh well, I waited long enough for Black Mesa...



Which was trash, but at least it didn't cost $300 million.


----------



## kapone32 (Jun 6, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> I was hoping to give SQ42 a whirl before then as well. Oh well, I waited long enough for Black Mesa...



Yeah I remember being very hyped for SQ42. About the same as I felt after watching the Cyberpunk 2077 game play video. Gaming with visuals and interactions that are uber immersive. I even almost bought a new ship as a result but didn't fall into the trap of having more content for the greatest Wing Commander ever made..........................If you were a kid or teenager with a good computer back in the day Wing Commander was like nothing before it.


----------



## bug (Jun 6, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> Yeah I remember being very hyped for SQ42. About the same as I felt after watching the Cyberpunk 2077 game play video. Gaming with visuals and interactions that are uber immersive. I even almost bought a new ship as a result but didn't fall into the trap of having more content for the greatest Wing Commander ever made..........................If you were a kid or teenager with a good computer back in the day Wing Commander was like nothing before it.


Hell yeah. It took me a while figure out my performance actually mattered in the first WC. When you had to defend the Tiger's Claw, you knew you were on the wrong slope


----------



## Sora (Jun 22, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> https://elite-dangerous.fandom.com/wiki/Development_Plans
> 
> a nice link to show how a over arching space sim should be handled.



Elite dangerous is garbage.
Shoo.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 25, 2019)

Sora said:


> Elite dangerous is garbage.
> Shoo.



I like garbage then.  Especially garbage that improves massively over time.  Garbage that simulates the whole milky way to scale, like Elite.  It shows vision and amazing techological advancement from the garbage of yesteryear.  Seriously, the progress from the old bannapeel garbage is nothing short of astounding...


----------



## Kursah (Jun 25, 2019)

Sora said:


> Elite dangerous is garbage.
> Shoo.



Poor choice of words, be more constructive and useful with your posts please, otherwise there's really no point to posting. Thousands of folks like Elite for numerous reasons, so a simple blanket statement that its garbage is neither useful nor welcome, please refrain from posting this kind or I'll be the one asking you to shoo.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 25, 2019)

Sora said:


> Elite dangerous is garbage.
> Shoo.



Really? I paid 20 bucks and had a pretty good 20-30 hours floating around in space. A good part of that was simply just flying out in a general direction, taking pictures along the way. Very immersive and unique at that, and it has some smart gameplay elements too with scooping fuel and all.

Did the fun last for me, no, its too empty for me in terms of scripted/handmade stuff, you really do notice its an RNG machine at work after a while. But... gameplay wise, the flight system is very nice, combat works well, and interdictions are pretty exciting.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 25, 2019)

Kursah said:


> Poor choice of words, be more constructive and useful with your posts please, otherwise there's really no point to posting. Thousands of folks like Elite for numerous reasons, so a simple blanket statement that its garbage is neither useful nor welcome, please refrain from posting this kind or I'll be the one asking you to shoo.



But I mean I kinda like the idea that Frontier literally advanced from making boxes full of hot rotten garbage to something as awesome as Elite though.  I mean seriously, that'd be like a world record in progression.

Sadly, I liked Zoo Tycoon as a kid so can't say that either though...


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 25, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> Which was trash, but at least it didn't cost $300 million.


According to you.


----------



## Sora (Jun 26, 2019)

Kursah said:


> Poor choice of words, be more constructive and useful with your posts please, otherwise there's really no point to posting. Thousands of folks like Elite for numerous reasons, so a simple blanket statement that its garbage is neither useful nor welcome, please refrain from posting this kind or I'll be the one asking you to shoo.



Perfect choice of words,  the game came out with no content and using it as a benchmark to say "this how X should have been" is inane and demonstrates how stockholmed game  buyers are to getting games that are actually complete on release.

Not my fault you're all "i want it now" consumers with no concept of design time or money involved.



Vayra86 said:


> Really? I paid 20 bucks and had a pretty good 20-30 hours floating around in space. A good part of that was simply just flying out in a general direction, taking pictures along the way. Very immersive and unique at that, and it has some smart gameplay elements too with scooping fuel and all.
> 
> Did the fun last for me, no, its too empty for me in terms of scripted/handmade stuff, you really do notice its an RNG machine at work after a while. But... gameplay wise, the flight system is very nice, combat works well, and interdictions are pretty exciting.



I can do that from my backyard with a telescopic camera,  stop defending a barren release and wake up to the reality of real game development.

Ya'll are the perfect example of why No Mans sky didn't end in mass refunds and a lawsuite.

Electronic Arts has done a real number on you.


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 26, 2019)

Sora said:


> Perfect choice of words,



Nope, being brief like that will never be a wise choice of words.



> the game came out with no content



That's an appeal to a past, not present state...  and regardless'  It had little replay value, but hardly no content.  I played it, enjoyed it and yes, burned out.  But also, I bought in fully understanding I was supporting an ongoing project.  Kind of like Star Citizen only they now have a meaningful game (unlike Star Citizen).



Sora said:


> Electronic Arts has done a real number on you.



Or you know, not everyone thinks like you and that's a fact one day you are going to realize isn't due to some sort of mental deficiency, but just enjoying different things.  Sorry you didn't like the game, don't take it our on everyone who did.


The game isn't trash simply because trash doesn't generate what Elite has.



Sora said:


> Ya'll are the perfect example of why No Mans sky didn't end in mass refunds and a lawsuite.



That game is actually decent now too.  Maybe a lawsuit would've made it better though, who knows?


----------



## INSTG8R (Jun 26, 2019)

Sora said:


> Perfect choice of words,  the game came out with no content and using it as a benchmark to say "this how X should have been" is inane and demonstrates how stockholmed game  buyers are to getting games that are actually complete on release.
> 
> Not my fault you're all "i want it now" consumers with no concept of design time or money involved.
> 
> ...


Whoah whoah!! Stockholm? ED is a finished product with consistent content updates. Anyone defending SC is someone wth a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome. Holding on for yet another Alpha release and another ships pledge drive. 
Just give me my SQ42 and. You take another decade farting about with your “grand vision”


----------



## Tatty_One (Jun 26, 2019)

We appear to be drifting away from SC and it's evolution to other games, lets not, on topic please.


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 26, 2019)

This is a very balanced assessment of Star Citizen funding, past, present and future from Bored Gamer.
Well worth a watch all the way through.


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 27, 2019)

Star Citizen is both an expose into modern funding principles and an exercise in psychology.  Fun to watch and worth all zero pennies I have invested.  I will happily invest $60 in 2030 when the beta comes out.


----------



## StrayKAT (Jun 27, 2019)

Sad, sad, sad.. since the Wing Commander series is in my top 10. But he's one of those developers who needs someone to keep him in line, I think. People could have seen the writing on the wall just by looking at Freelancer. Microsoft gave him a wide berth at the time, but he was inclined to the same aspirations as Star Citizen back then: He wanted a huge MMO type space for the game, and it was just about to suffer from feature creep. MS pulled the plug and just rushed a basic space shooter release. People blamed them at the time (evil Microsoft/evil game publishers blah blah blah), but there's a reason why they do what they do. It's not always their fault. Some creative geniuses are chaotic and need to be managed. Tim Schafer is another example. Some of his games (Grim Fandango, Full Throttle) are some of my favorites too.. but he has a hard time getting things done on his own.


----------



## 64K (Aug 31, 2019)

Well, here we go again...

Squadron 42 beta delayed 3 months.

Chris needs another 100 million dollars.......for _work_














						Squadron 42, Star Citizen's single-player campaign, beta has been delayed by 12 weeks
					

Cloud Imperium has announced that Staggered Development is coming to both Star Citizen and Squadron 42. However, and due to this development model, the beta date for Squadron 42 has been delayed by 12 weeks. In case you aren’t aware of, Staggered Development is an approach that splits the...




					www.dsogaming.com


----------



## moproblems99 (Aug 31, 2019)

To me, all the delays ultimately mean nothing if the game is brilliant. Doubly so if the game is brilliant _on release_.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Aug 31, 2019)

I see nothing wrong in that article.  Switching to a staggered development schedule would cause a three month delay on the first release.


----------



## 64K (Aug 31, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> I see nothing wrong in that article.  Switching to a staggered development schedule would cause a three month delay on the first release.



Assuming this is the last delay of course which doesn't coincide with previous Developer performance.



moproblems99 said:


> To me, all the delays ultimately mean nothing if the game is brilliant. Doubly so if the game is brilliant _on release_.



Same here. I'm very patient. Most gamers are not.

If the game gets finished then all is good. If the game doesn't get finished then I've lost nothing as well. I didn't crowdfund and I never will anymore than I will ever pre-order. I'm no gambler.


----------



## blobster21 (Aug 31, 2019)




----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 31, 2019)

I wish I could get a refund on my $25. I backed this game at its original Kickstarter. What a load of lies.


----------



## Vario (Aug 31, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I wish I could get a refund on my $25. I backed this game at its original Kickstarter. What a load of lies.


The space stuff is cool but much like No Man's Sky, I think its just not possible for this type of space sandbox multiplayer game to be anything but boring and empty.  So I didn't back it.  Then it became obvious it was a scam with the high priced ship sales and the cult like fan base.


----------



## Assimilator (Aug 31, 2019)

moproblems99 said:


> To me, all the delays ultimately mean nothing if the game is brilliant. Doubly so if the game is brilliant _on release_.



What about if the delays are infinite?


----------



## LFaWolf (Aug 31, 2019)

I hope the game will be out by 2040. That is when I will be retiring and finally have time to play a good game. I am not being sarcastic. I have a feeling that with NVIDIA pushing Raytracing, and AMD on the wing talking about it, this game will get the Raytracing treatment and there will be more delays to add Raytracing support. 2040, that is what I am hoping.


----------



## Kovoet (Aug 31, 2019)

Thank God I never got involved in this one


----------



## Divide Overflow (Aug 31, 2019)

I'm disappointed by the feature delays, but am familiar with how common they are in a software development program of this size.  I can see a lot of progress and there's great communication from the development team.  I also regularly spend quite a bit of time in the PTU and Live servers watching game mechanics being deployed and refined.  There's a long way to go, but it's pretty amazing already!


----------



## Space Lynx (Aug 31, 2019)

Divide Overflow said:


> I'm disappointed by the feature delays, but am familiar with how common they are in a software development program of this size.  I can see a lot of progress and there's great communication from the development team.  I also regularly spend quite a bit of time in the PTU and Live servers watching game mechanics being deployed and refined.  There's a long way to go, but it's pretty amazing already!



thats not the issue... the Kickstarter said a timeline way before now... while some delays are acceptable, this long of a delay is blatant false advertising and I should have a right to get me $25 kickstarter back.  especially since this guy has plenty of time to enjoy his mansion and mini yacht looking boat


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Aug 31, 2019)

Reminds me Gran Turismo on Playstation. Polyphony spends an eternity perfecting those titles, and Playstation owners wait years for a first party racing title to play on the latest generation consoles. Then the games don't even end up that great. 

I wonder if a big-name studio will swoop in and make a similar style of game to see if they can capitalize on what is clearly a "want" for a group of well-heeled gamers.


----------



## theFOoL (Aug 31, 2019)

The development of this game was just too much for me to wait on. Like I mean I loved Freelancer and the developer wanted this game to be 100% Graphical, story and world space wise to explore as what Freelancer was when you complete the story

I loved the Freelancer Mod I played with called Tow "Tides of War" a StarWars Mod. I so much fun but it had to go to. Here's my journey... 









						TOW Videos
					

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




					www.youtube.com


----------



## moproblems99 (Sep 1, 2019)

Assimilator said:


> What about if the delays are infinite?



I don't care because I don't have any money invested in it.  Space Sims aren't really my thing either so my heart won't be broken either.

That said, the ambitions are large enough that it could be a great game.  I don't have much faith in the studio.


----------



## 64K (Sep 1, 2019)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> I wonder if a big-name studio will swoop in and make a similar style of game to see if they can capitalize on what is clearly a "want" for a group of well-heeled gamers.



Doubtful......the buzz around the Star Craft Squadron 42 release is dying out for some years now. It's not a game that the vast majority of people give a damn about anymore anyway. Roberts has been slowly slipping in to a has-been forgotten Developer for years now and a joke.

Maybe that will change. I hope so.


----------



## INSTG8R (Sep 1, 2019)

64K said:


> Doubtful......the buzz around the Star Craft Squadron 42 release is dying out for some years now. It's not a game that the vast majority of people give a damn about anymore anyway. Roberts has been slowly slipping in to a has-been forgotten Developer for years now and a joke.
> 
> Maybe that will change. I hope so.


Says you...All I bought in for is SQ42...the rest can go fly off into space...


----------



## Khonjel (Sep 1, 2019)

Let me preface by saying that I have no stake on this game other than being amazed at their initial promise. But as an outsider it felt kinda irresponsible (to me) hiring hollywood actors for mocap cutscene.


----------



## bug (Sep 1, 2019)

Divide Overflow said:


> I'm disappointed by the feature delays, but *am familiar with how common they are in a software development program of this size*.  I can see a lot of progress and there's great communication from the development team.  I also regularly spend quite a bit of time in the PTU and Live servers watching game mechanics being deployed and refined.  There's a long way to go, but it's pretty amazing already!


Please do share, because I'm a software developer and I'm not. Google itself didn't take 8 years to get something working that was better than the competition out the door, but hey, I don't know everything.


----------



## Mescalamba (Sep 2, 2019)

I remember hearing about D3, when we still played D2.

It took some time to actually play D3.

And thats A LOT easier game to do than absurdly big MMO in space.

People are spoiled.


----------



## bug (Sep 2, 2019)

Mescalamba said:


> I remember hearing about D3, when we still played D2.
> 
> It took some time to actually play D3.
> 
> ...


I remember Blizzard took _one year_ between competing D2 and releasing the game to the public. They only did balancing during that year. But that obviously doesn't apply here.
And stop bringing in the scope as an argument: project management has cracked this problem decades ago, it's called iterative development. I.e. you can release a game where you can fly your ship in space and undertake missions and later on add the ability to land on planets and trade and further down the line implement the ability to buy plots of land and whatnot without affecting the quality of title.
This game is not huge in scope, it's a textbook case of how not to manage a software project.


----------



## dorsetknob (Sep 2, 2019)

Call me Stupid or a fan of Descent but 
they could have borrowed from that platform and updated/rewrote Engine.
You would have had a dam good basic level multi player Arena
use of the ftl/jump engine to move/spawn in another area ( different maps and Micro transaction/  access)
Use of Different maps /levels/Regions  as they could be called would be add on (paid Content) and would be inifinatly Expandable ( only limited by Game Servers).
This Could have been Accomplished for a Fraction of what has/will been invested and it would probably have been on the retail Shelves 18 to 24 months ago.

I think of this game as a form of Electronic Ponzi scheme ( just update enough to keep the investors pumping in their $£).


----------



## bug (Sep 2, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> Call me Stupid or a fan of Descent but
> they could have borrowed from that platform and updated/rewrote Engine.
> You would have had a dam good basic level multi player Arena
> use of the ftl/jump engine to move/spawn in another area ( different maps and Micro transaction/  access)
> ...


Honestly, there's probably a zillion ways this could have been done that would have put something in the hands of backer by now, with a higher quality than what we see right now.
I'm reluctant to call the whole thing a Ponzi scheme, it's just consistent with what Mr Roberts does (see his history with Freelancer).


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 2, 2019)

bug said:


> I remember Blizzard took _one year_ between competing D2 and releasing the game to the public. They only did balancing during that year. But that obviously doesn't apply here.
> And stop bringing in the scope as an argument: project management has cracked this problem decades ago, it's called iterative development. I.e. you can release a game where you can fly your ship in space and undertake missions and later on add the ability to land on planets and trade and further down the line implement the ability to buy plots of land and whatnot without affecting the quality of title.
> This game is not huge in scope, it's a textbook case of how not to manage a software project.



The scope is pretty significant though.

Another big part of this, is that its a scope consisting of 100% moving elements. As in, the only thing they really had was a version of CryEngine, that later got switched to Lumberyard. Support came and went, Crytek nearly came and went, even.

But its not just the engine that's moving. People too. Dev teams were incomplete, located in the wrong place or lacking crucial skills. And then there is the project itself. The earlier years were not just building up the lore and game setting/world (easy to do without coding much, and independant of how you code game mechanics or handle them in the engine), but also doing what was possible with the people available at the time. There is also not the luxury of a copy pasted 'base' for the game. Literally everything is done from scratch. You can't do iterative development without a solid base. Well you can, but the result is a horrible mess you'll never get out of again. Its easy to get stuck in your own ground rules later on.

If you do 'a project' within a larger company that does lots of similar projects, or has already done one or two of them with existing teams and having some collective experience then sure, Star Citizen is the worst example of how to do it right. But if you consider all those moving parts... I think what we've got today is quite the achievement.

The element of time is a problem, but its mostly our impatience with that than anything else that causes the problem. Not the way the project is managed. We're just waiting too long for it - like you say, we need a product in backer's hands. And apparently, what's there today is not enough for many... but many also don't see how much is already built into that content we do have. The code base for iterative development is just about ready.

Besides, would you REALLY want an iterative singleplayer campaign? Its the worst possible invention in gaming. See Hitman. Totally didn't work. I'll take my campaign without cliffhangers... The iterative dev process starts and continues on the PU - they've figured out that a single star system or hub is quite a bit of work, so we'll get that spoonfed to us - and that seems fine to me, as long as they're not paid expacs...

And yeah one more thing that WOULD help is Roberts who needs to stop moving the goal posts all the time. Because I do agree that is one huge factor in this whole story.


----------



## bug (Sep 2, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> The scope is pretty significant though.
> 
> Another big part of this, is that its a scope consisting of 100% moving elements. As in, the only thing they really had was a version of CryEngine, that later got switched to Lumberyard. Support came and went, Crytek nearly came and went, even.
> 
> ...


And again, we only have to look at Path of Exile to see how this was actually done iteratively. Sure, you'd be hard pressed to find similarities between the single player PoE campaign today and single player PoE v1.0, but really, who cares?

Also, iterative development only ends up in a mess if you're doing it wrong.

And if all you've said is true and there were challenges wrt the team, those would be reasons to bring scope under control asap, not expand it. So, again, mismanagement.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 2, 2019)

bug said:


> And again, we only have to look at Path of Exile to see how this was actually done iteratively. Sure, you'd be hard pressed to find similarities between the single player PoE campaign today and single player PoE v1.0, but really, who cares?
> 
> Also, iterative development only ends up in a mess if you're doing it wrong.
> 
> And if all you've said is true and there were challenges wrt the team, those would be reasons to bring scope under control asap, not expand it. So, again, mismanagement.



When working with people its pretty difficult to straight up compare projects. And even GGG didn't have a smooth ride... but let's face it, they're making a simple 2D ARPG that's been made a hundred times over, and even that one suffered from severe networking issues right up until a few years ago. The game was already feature complete but they still didn't manage to fix server desync. Whole sets of skillgems were unusable for a looong time. Tried a Flicker Strike build? It was good fun... not.

And let's not speak of the game's economy, because that one is pretty fundamentally broken. A separate trading site to find people ingame? What is this, Diablo 2 or is it 2019 by now? Whales dominate the online game and they've been doing that ever since it was released. GGG had some pretty shitty rebalancing going on, and there is a whole hoard of completely broken items out there, that will never be deleted. Lovely, that iterative development ey 

So yeah... mismanagement? I think some nuance should be applied. The only reason to conclude that, is because _you _feel its taking too long. Not because the project is failing, because its really not. Content gets produced, builds get released, people see progress.


----------



## bug (Sep 2, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> When working with people its pretty difficult to straight up compare projects. And even GGG didn't have a smooth ride... but let's face it, they're making a simple 2D ARPG that's been made a hundred times over, and even that one suffered from severe networking issues right up until a few years ago. The game was already feature complete but they still didn't manage to fix server desync. Whole sets of skillgems were unusable for a looong time. Tried a Flicker Strike build? It was good fun... not.
> 
> And let's not speak of the game's economy, because that one is pretty fundamentally broken. A separate trading site to find people ingame? What is this, Diablo 2 or is it 2019 by now? Whales dominate the online game and they've been doing that ever since it was released. GGG had some pretty shitty rebalancing going on, and there is a whole hoard of completely broken items out there, that will never be deleted. Lovely, that iterative development ey
> 
> So yeah... mismanagement? I think some nuance should be applied. The only reason to conclude that, is because _you _feel its taking too long. Not because the project is failing, because its really not. Content gets produced, builds get released, people see progress.


Hey, I've only been into this software development thing for almost two decades now, but if you're telling me SC is not taking too long, you probably know better.


----------



## Vario (Sep 2, 2019)

The only thing that Star Citizen seems to do well is very well detailed graphical models.  The screenshots and carefully choreographed videos present the image of a successful game project. Its clearly focused around hype generation and selling virtual property.  The actual gameplay is shallow.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 2, 2019)

bug said:


> Hey, I've only been into this software development thing for almost two decades now, but if you're telling me SC is not taking too long, you probably know better.



Nah, I dont... I guess I still give CIG the benefit of the doubt, especially because Ive also seen lots of successful projects that really didnt turn into great products either. You named POE.. as good as it is, it also carries flaws that relate to replayability in a big way. And those stem directly from early iterative development...


----------



## bug (Sep 2, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Nah, I dont... I guess I still give CIG the benefit of the doubt.


Well, Freelancer was great even unfinished. With that in mind, SC may deliver as well at some point. But as brilliant as Mr Roberts is, project management is just not his thing.
I just chose not to follow the title at all (save for threads like this that pop up from time to time) and be pleasantly surprised if anything gets released eventually, rather than the other way around.


----------



## moproblems99 (Sep 2, 2019)

I don't really know what to think about to be honest.

On the one hand, I think people should have an out to get their money back because this process IS taking too long.  On the other, I feel people should be punished for their stupidity.  Investing thousands of dollars in a game that had not been built is not the smartest thing to do and they should be held accountable.

Honestly, I wish for the best from here out and the game development to intensify and release cadence increase.  I want to see ambitious projects succeed because the industry will benefit as a whole.  I just recently became aware of Ashes of Creation that sounds pretty cool but I just don't like subscription based games.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 2, 2019)

bug said:


> Well, Freelancer was great even unfinished. With that in mind, SC may deliver as well at some point. But as brilliant as Mr Roberts is, project management is just not his thing.
> I just chose not to follow the title at all (save for threads like this that pop up from time to time) and be pleasantly surprised if anything gets released eventually, rather than the other way around.



Doing the same to be honest with you


----------



## Khonjel (Sep 2, 2019)

Vario said:


> The only thing that Star Citizen seems to do well is very well detailed graphical models.  The screenshots and carefully choreographed videos present the image of a successful game project. Its clearly focused around hype generation and selling virtual property.  The actual gameplay is shallow.


Yeah. I envisioned the game kinda to be like Eve. That street vendor? Yeah that's a real person not an NPC. Or that shady guy who wanted to buy you a drink? Not an NPC either.

But tbh I don't know what I imagined either. Maybe the game's taking so long because of people like me but who actually paid thousands of dollars per capita.


----------



## Vario (Sep 2, 2019)

Khonjel said:


> Yeah. I envisioned the game kinda to be like Eve. That street vendor? Yeah that's a real person not an NPC. Or that shady guy who wanted to buy you a drink? Not an NPC either.
> 
> But tbh I don't know what I imagined either. Maybe the game's taking so long because of people like me but who actually paid thousands of dollars per capita.



Yeah it sounds good in theory.  I understand buying into the fantasy of having a total immersion in a sci-fantasy world.  But when it comes to a realistic implementation, just imagine as a developer, translating these minute characters into playable roles.   If implemented, it would be grind based like every MMORPG.  You aren't going to get a virtual Star Wars where everyone is Han Solo.  You are going to get Star Wars Galaxies instead.

Don't blame yourself and your monetary contributions for the delay in game development.  The game development schedule is suffering because the developer Chris Roberts is not competent at managing a project of this size.

The other flip side of this genre is the idea of infinitely created worlds such as No Mans Sky.  In practice, the worlds look aesthetically different due to random seed generation but the gameplay is the same on every world.


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## ador250 (Sep 2, 2019)

Isn't this game marked as the biggest scam in gaming community, Why people still get excited about this ?


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 3, 2019)

ador250 said:


> Isn't this game marked as the biggest scam in gaming community, Why people still get excited about this ?



This whole thread would show you it's arguably still a hot debate.


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## Splinterdog (Sep 3, 2019)

ador250 said:


> Isn't this game marked as the biggest scam in gaming community, Why people still get excited about this ?


If it was a scam, why do the devs issue regular game updates and roadmaps?
It's contentious, certainly, but I wouldn't say it was a scam.


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## bug (Sep 3, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> If it was a scam, why do the devs issue regular game updates and roadmaps?
> It's contentious, certainly, but I wouldn't say it was a scam.


I've already posted I don't think this is a scam, but if it was that exactly how scam works: give/show you bits and pieces, but you never get the real deal.


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## erocker (Sep 3, 2019)

Vario said:


> The only thing that Star Citizen seems to do well is very well detailed graphical models.  The screenshots and carefully choreographed videos present the image of a successful game project. Its clearly focused around hype generation and selling virtual property.  The actual gameplay is shallow.


I think this sums it up pretty well.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 3, 2019)

On a side note, every time this thread pops up I get the odd urge to see what Elite: Dangerous is up to.


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## RainingTacco (Sep 3, 2019)

Overambitious project, bad fund management by Chris Roberts and you got current situation. Well at least they can sell the "game" in the future as a glorified tech demo in lines of 3D Mark. Slap some sequence, crank the details and voila you have testing benchmark


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## Vya Domus (Sep 3, 2019)

Vario said:


> The only thing that Star Citizen seems to do well is very well detailed graphical models.



For what that's worth. Eventually all of this will become outdated as this thing keeps dragging on forever.


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## INSTG8R (Sep 3, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> For what that's worth. Eventually all of these things will become outdated as this things keep dragging on forever.


Right? We’re a couple engine changes in at this point already...


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## Flogger23m (Sep 4, 2019)

Khonjel said:


> Yeah. I envisioned the game kinda to be like Eve. *That street vendor? Yeah that's a real person not an NPC. Or that shady guy who wanted to buy you a drink? Not an NPC either.*
> 
> But tbh I don't know what I imagined either. Maybe the game's taking so long because of people like me but who actually paid thousands of dollars per capita.



Nothing more interesting that working retail in a video game or standing around for hours so you can wait for another person to pass by so you can buy them a virtual drink and type at them. Or hear their poor mic and terrible voice acting which isn't immersion breaking at all. 

They had the chance to make a good space combat game but decided to put way too much boring crap in it.


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## Vario (Sep 4, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Nothing more interesting that working retail in a video game or standing around for hours so you can wait for another person to pass by so you can buy them a virtual drink and type at them. Or hear their poor mic and terrible voice acting which isn't immersion breaking at all.
> 
> They had the chance to make a good space combat game but decided to put way too much boring crap in it.


The player roles should be exciting and built around a micro game of dog fighting, piracy, smuggling, and a macro strategic fleet command for the clan leader types.


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## Dinnercore (Sep 4, 2019)

Flogger23m said:


> Nothing more interesting that working retail in a video game or standing around for hours so you can wait for another person to pass by so you can buy them a virtual drink and type at them. Or hear their poor mic and terrible voice acting which isn't immersion breaking at all.
> 
> They had the chance to make a good space combat game but decided to put way too much boring crap in it.


Then look somewhere else? This 'boring crap' is the key element why I still pay for this. Mindless combat bs is what everyone does these days, that is the boring crap for me.

Even with no gameplay elements I had dozens of hours of pure joy and fun, I spend 5 full hours with a friend just walking on an unfinished generic planet surface and I was enjoying every second of it. It was so much more to me and my mind than all the gameplay filled crap that is out there these days. It hit the soft spot in me that tickles my creativity and fantasy, to fill this open canvas of just an environment with my own imagination. The forest area and the big desert, it all was just there. Like a real place you can touch and feel. If you take a walk in a forest in real life there is no 'gameplay' to be had there either. It is just a forest, no quests, no action, nothing. You and your environment, and I think there are people who can enjoy these things in a digital space, because it lets you explore and touch your imagination in way you never could before.

From my view they could stop the delevopment right now, and release the alpha content they have and I would be happy. This insane attention on details and immersion in just the visual presentation is already worth every $ for me, because it is unique and I can not have had this experience with any other game or medium out there today and in the foreseeable future. You can´t put a price/budget on something like Star Citizen, things like these are so rare they should have all the freedom they can get. Of course that is utopic, but I can dream right?

This game is not a mainstream title for everyone, it is for a selected few who can appreciate this kind of stuff. So I don´t get why people are angry about this, just let it be if you don´t like it? After all this is my money I 'waste' and not yours. Seems to me like you are afraid of new things, a similar hate like homophobia.
Maybe you did pay for it, but if you did you should have used your brain and it would have been clear from the start how ambitious this project really is and how unlikely it is to stay in the shape they initially portrayed.


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## Splinterdog (Sep 4, 2019)

Vya Domus said:


> For what that's worth. Eventually all of this will become outdated as this thing keeps dragging on forever.


Like Brexit, you mean.
...grabs coat.


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## kapone32 (Sep 4, 2019)

Then look somewhere else? This 'boring crap' is the key element why I still pay for this. Mindless combat bs is what everyone does these days, that is the boring crap for me.

Even with no gameplay elements I had dozens of hours of pure joy and fun, I spend 5 full hours with a friend just walking on an unfinished generic planet surface and I was enjoying every second of it. It was so much more to me and my mind than all the gameplay filled crap that is out there these days. It hit the soft spot in me that tickles my creativity and fantasy, to fill this open canvas of just an environment with my own imagination. The forest area and the big desert, it all was just there. Like a real place you can touch and feel. If you take a walk in a forest in real life there is no 'gameplay' to be had there either. It is just a forest, no quests, no action, nothing. You and your environment, and I think there are people who can enjoy these things in a digital space, because it lets you explore and touch your imagination in way you never could before.

From my view they could stop the delevopment right now, and release the alpha content they have and I would be happy. This insane attention on details and immersion in just the visual presentation is already worth every $ for me, because it is unique and I can not have had this experience with any other game or medium out there today and in the foreseeable future. You can´t put a price/budget on something like Star Citizen, things like these are so rare they should have all the freedom they can get. Of course that is utopic, but I can dream right?

This game is not a mainstream title for everyone, it is for a selected few who can appreciate this kind of stuff. So I don´t get why people are angry about this, just let it be if you don´t like it? After all this is my money I 'waste' and not yours. Seems to me like you are afraid of new things, a similar hate like homophobia.
Maybe you did pay for it, but if you did you should have used your brain and it would have been clear from the start how ambitious this project really is and how unlikely it is to stay in the shape they initially portrayed. 



Well I am glad that you are having fun. That for me is the problem with this project. It was supposed to have provided fun for everyone who invested in it. The promise of this game has already been implemented in Elite and the latest update to No Man's Sky. My issue with Star Citizen is that it has no clear direction or finish line. We were originally promised this game in 2016 and then we were supposed to wait so that they could finish Squadron 42 for 2017. It is good that there are more things to do now but has the game even finished in the Alpha stage? Oh but wait there are always more ships to buy.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 4, 2019)

R-T-B said:


> On a side note, every time this thread pops up I get the odd urge to see what Elite: Dangerous is up to.


Elite is doing okay. If you haven't dipped into it for a couple of years it's _definitely _worth a revisit. Here are some of the highlights from when I poked it in 2018 and picked it up again a couple of weeks ago.


New ships, Cheiftain family (3 ships), Krait family (2 ships), Mamba, Type-10 
New interface with far better new-player experience, in-game help and training. It's still not great but I wish I'd had that when I started.
Wing missions for co-op play, ship-launched fighters that a buddy can pilot with multiple players per ship. Fixing most of the old v1.5 wing bugs was a big deal.
New types of missions, scenarios (passenger missions and megaship-based missions)
Completely revamped combat zones. They're finite and more engaging rather than being an infinitely-respawning furball with 'surprise' megaships and sub-missions.
Overhauled and expanded mining and exploration experience - both are good  and the exploration overhaul includes a way to  take the tedious RNG out of USS searching.
Significant expansions and growth in Colonia outside the bubble, if that's your thing.
Thargoid hunting and Guardian quest chain with lore and stuff worth unlocking from it, even if you don't care about the Thargoids/Guardians.
Updated graphics engine with better lighting and performance. It sucked at launch of the new system but they've adjusted based on user feedback for the most part.

There's nothing game-changingly new but Elite is *slowly and steadily *becoming a better game and being fleshed out into the MMORPG that was promised whilst being enjoyable enough to survive as a franchise in it's interim states. I give Elite Dangerous a 50% chance of being the game that Star Citizen backers actually want, as opposed to a 10% chance that a release-version of Star Citizen will ever happen at all.

In terms of upcoming content, there's nothing major planned for around 12 months now, as Frontier have said that the 2020 expansion is going to be massive and they're bunkering down to work on that rather than do little tweaks and individual additions.


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## Vario (Sep 4, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> Then look somewhere else? This 'boring crap' is the key element why I still pay for this. Mindless combat bs is what everyone does these days, that is the boring crap for me.
> 
> Even with no gameplay elements I had dozens of hours of pure joy and fun, I spend 5 full hours with a friend just walking on an unfinished generic planet surface and I was enjoying every second of it. It was so much more to me and my mind than all the gameplay filled crap that is out there these days. It hit the soft spot in me that tickles my creativity and fantasy, to fill this open canvas of just an environment with my own imagination. The forest area and the big desert, it all was just there. Like a real place you can touch and feel. If you take a walk in a forest in real life there is no 'gameplay' to be had there either. It is just a forest, no quests, no action, nothing. You and your environment, and I think there are people who can enjoy these things in a digital space, because it lets you explore and touch your imagination in way you never could before.
> 
> ...


I hope it was worth the money you put in to walk around for 5 hours on a generic planet. For most people, it won't be, and if so, there won't be a lasting playerbase.
There are a few other games out there with similar planet exploration: Space Engineers, Astroneers, No Man's Sky, Empyrion, Osiris New Dawn.  Subnautica has a similar exploration feel though its an aquatic planet.  In fact, its probably one of the best exploration games I've played.  These were made with a fraction of the budget and cost a fraction to purchase of what the average 'Citizen has paid in.

As an aside, I am very interested in this upcoming game StarBase


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## 64K (Sep 4, 2019)

The funding won't stop because people really, really want this game.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 4, 2019)

Heh, I already own it (got a £50 pack with a GPU purchase years ago) so I'm interested in progress but have rock-bottom expectations. I'm certainly not giving Cloud Imperium any money at this point.

I've downloaded the current alpha a couple of times over the last few years and it's miles off being ready. Feels like a decade or more to go still.


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## Khonjel (Sep 4, 2019)

Vario said:


> I hope it was worth the money you put in to walk around for 5 hours on a generic planet. For most people, it won't be, and if so, there won't be a lasting playerbase.
> There ...


And that's O-K! Just because so many people backed the game for so much doesn't mean that the game should be for everybody. I really think the game if it fully releases will be darling child for RP aficionados.


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## Dinnercore (Sep 4, 2019)

Vario said:


> There are a few other games out there with similar planet exploration: Space Engineers, Astroneers, No Man's Sky, Empyrion, Osiris New Dawn. Subnautica has a similar exploration feel though its an aquatic planet.


I have tried half of those titles and sadly they dont even come close for me. I wish I could enjoy the exploration in those games on the same level as I do with SC. There is a distinct difference between SC and those games, even when just exploring a planets surface. Don´t know exactly what it is, from the sound to the 'feel' of space and volume. The physics and optical effects seem just about right for SC to be believable while in those other games you can instantly spot so many things wrong and implausible, breaking the illusion of a 'real' place.

And yeah the time I spend in the alpha was really worth it. I was only invested with 50€ before and dropped a multiple of that afterwards. The places in SC I saw and breathed in really impressed me, which never happened like that before in any other title. I can´t stress that enough, since it seems so exchangeable for you and other people. And believe me, I have seen many videogame worlds in the past 20 years as I come from a family with multiple collectors and enthusiasts, I dived deep into those worlds for hours a day before I went to school even. I can´t make you see the same things I see nor make anyone feel the same enthusiasm about Star Citizen that I feel.

I just hope you will some day stop looking only at costs and value for art and entertainment. This seems like a very limited mindset to have.


----------



## Vario (Sep 4, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> I have tried half of those titles and sadly they dont even come close for me. I wish I could enjoy the exploration in those games on the same level as I do with SC. There is a distinct difference between SC and those games, even when just exploring a planets surface. Don´t know exactly what it is, from the sound to the 'feel' of space and volume. The physics and optical effects seem just about right for SC to be believable while in those other games you can instantly spot so many things wrong and implausible, breaking the illusion of a 'real' place.
> 
> And yeah the time I spend in the alpha was really worth it. I was only invested with 50€ before and dropped a multiple of that afterwards. The places in SC I saw and breathed in really impressed me, which never happened like that before in any other title. I can´t stress that enough, since it seems so exchangeable for you and other people. And believe me, I have seen many videogame worlds in the past 20 years as I come from a family with multiple collectors and enthusiasts, I dived deep into those worlds for hours a day before I went to school even. I can´t make you see the same things I see nor make anyone feel the same enthusiasm about Star Citizen that I feel.
> 
> I just hope you will some day stop looking only at costs and value for art and entertainment. This seems like a very limited mindset to have.


Thank you for this reply, you have a lot of passion.  I'll admit, my exposure to Star Citizen has been limited to watching player's youtube and twitch gameplay (avoiding the slick propaganda videos and big name youtubers, rather I like to see what a typical experience is without commentary) which felt empty and dull and was not sufficient for me to buy in.  About a year ago, a friend of mine streamed his experience flying around in space and having the game crash multiple times during dogfights.  It felt very disappointing. The one point that I really was impressed with, however, was his flight from space to a planets surface.


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## Dinnercore (Sep 5, 2019)

Vario said:


> Thank you for this reply, you have a lot of passion.  I'll admit, my exposure to Star Citizen has been limited to watching player's youtube and twitch gameplay (avoiding the slick propaganda videos and big name youtubers, rather I like to see what a typical experience is without commentary) which felt empty and dull and was not sufficient for me to buy in.  About a year ago, a friend of mine streamed his experience flying around in space and having the game crash multiple times during dogfights.  It felt very disappointing. The one point that I really was impressed with, however, was his flight from space to a planets surface.


I do have a lot of passion for it and I hope you understand that I do not mean to belittle your point of view and criticism. You do mention a lot of valid facts that apply to many players and backers and I can definitly get myself to see your side as well. I just wanted to show my side of things as a counterweight to the many voices I hear and read that just brush off SC as a big scam or completly empty game with no life or passion behind it.


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## 64K (Sep 5, 2019)

All I want is Squadron 42 but I won't crowdfund it.


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## R-T-B (Sep 5, 2019)

Chrispy_ said:


> Elite is doing okay. If you haven't dipped into it for a couple of years it's _definitely _worth a revisit. Here are some of the highlights from when I poked it in 2018 and picked it up again a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> 
> New ships, Cheiftain family (3 ships), Krait family (2 ships), Mamba, Type-10
> ...



Oh, I know.  I last played roughly 6 months ago so not THAT out of date, heh.


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## 64K (Oct 12, 2019)

I was just reading that Star Citizen Alpha 3.7 has released. The game that I'm really interested in is Squadron 42. The last I read it is targeted for a Beta release some time next year but I don't want the buggy Beta release. I want the finished patched game so I guess I have over a year to wait.

I've never thought that the Star Citizen project was a scam but I do think it's mismanaged by Roberts. According to what I've read the project began in 2011. So 8 years later and according to their site they've taken in 237 million dollars and all that's available is an Alpha version of the game. I know that the scope of the game changed radically and that's why it didn't get released in 2014 and Cloud Imperium supposedly has around 400 people working on developing the game but 8 years in development is a long time to only have yet another Alpha release.


















						Star Citizen Alpha 3.7 available to all backers, adds new gameplay features, full patch notes revealed
					

Cloud Imperium has released Star Citizen 3.7 to all backers. This new alpha version adds numerous new gameplay features, improves other gameplay aspects, and fixes various bugs.




					www.dsogaming.com


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## INSTG8R (Oct 12, 2019)

64K said:


> All I want is Squadron 42 but I won't crowdfund it.


Me too and that’s the only reason I threw any money at it to begin with, seem that was a few years ago now...


----------



## Frick (Oct 12, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> Then look somewhere else? This 'boring crap' is the key element why I still pay for this. Mindless combat bs is what everyone does these days, that is the boring crap for me.
> 
> Even with no gameplay elements I had dozens of hours of pure joy and fun, I spend 5 full hours with a friend just walking on an unfinished generic planet surface and I was enjoying every second of it. It was so much more to me and my mind than all the gameplay filled crap that is out there these days. It hit the soft spot in me that tickles my creativity and fantasy, to fill this open canvas of just an environment with my own imagination. The forest area and the big desert, it all was just there. Like a real place you can touch and feel. If you take a walk in a forest in real life there is no 'gameplay' to be had there either. It is just a forest, no quests, no action, nothing. You and your environment, and I think there are people who can enjoy these things in a digital space, because it lets you explore and touch your imagination in way you never could before.
> 
> ...



You did fine until the last paragraph.


So serious question: Is this a game one can just buy and play, regardless its Alpha status? EDIt: Oh one post up. So you can.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 12, 2019)

Dinnercore said:


> I do have a lot of passion for it and I hope you understand that I do not mean to belittle your point of view and criticism. You do mention a lot of valid facts that apply to many players and backers and I can definitly get myself to see your side as well. I just wanted to show my side of things as a counterweight to the many voices I hear and read that just brush off SC as a big scam or completly empty game with no life or passion behind it.



Heh funny how you say that. I myself am convinced that its exactly the passion in the project that is causing its delays. That and lack of decentralization, as in, Roberts is far too omnipresent micromanaging things. They have self managed teams and yet, budget is getting reallocated and added all the time.

If I tried that in my workplace Id find myself fired in days... it kills accountability when goal posts keep getting moved. Its actually quite amazing how they can still keep some sort of release schedule going.


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## bug (Oct 12, 2019)

64K said:


> I was just reading that Star Citizen Alpha 3.7 has released. The game that I'm really interested in is Squadron 42.



You know there can't be a Squadron 42 until they hit at least Alpha 99.999. Because scope.


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## INSTG8R (Oct 12, 2019)

bug said:


> You know there can't be a Squadron 42 until they hit at least Alpha 99.999. Because scope.


Yeah but it/was supposed to be FIRST until Roberts went full idiot with his grandiose never ending feature creep that’s taken over all the focus or lack thereof. Give me my SQ42 and you can faff around for another decade for all I care with the rest of that nonsense list of “content”


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## bug (Oct 12, 2019)

INSTG8R said:


> Yeah but it/was supposed to be FIRST until Roberts went full idiot with his grandiose never ending feature creep that’s taken over all the focus or lack thereof. Give me my SQ42 and you can faff around for another decade for all I care with the rest of that nonsense list of “content”


That would be sane way to do things. That ship has sailed. (And my HOTAS is still waiting for Squadron 42)


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## INSTG8R (Oct 12, 2019)

bug said:


> That would be sane thing to do things. That ship has sailed. (And my HOTAS is still waiting for Squadron 42)


Yeah it’s literally been tossed aside for Roberts ever changing “Grand Vision”


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## 64K (Oct 13, 2019)

I've been saying for years that Cloud Imperium should just finish what they already have and release it. Then continue to expand the game and release those as updates. What Roberts obviously wants to do is release the greatest PC game ever made whenever that can be accomplished. He said he doesn't want to release the game until it's perfect but perfection isn't possible. There will always be something else that could be improved. There are the core fans that are fine with his vision but more than a few are getting pissed that they don't get the finished game by now when they bought a package years and years ago.

Roberts seems to want to keep selling ships, hangar bay decorations, ship weapons and armor upgrades and plots of virtual land to keep the cash rolling in. All of this pulls part of his team off of just finishing the game. Why keep making ships to sell? Because people are spending a lot on them. Cloud Imperium a while back offered a Ship Package for $27,000 that contained every ship in the game. I read recently about one guy that spent $30,000 on ships. That's insane to gamble that much money on a game that might never be finished. On the other hand if he can't keep the cash rolling in then the game is certain to never be finished.


----------



## INSTG8R (Oct 13, 2019)

64K said:


> I've been saying for years that Cloud Imperium should just finish what they already have and release it. Then continue to expand the game and release those as updates. What Roberts obviously wants to do is release the greatest PC game ever made whenever that can be accomplished. He said he doesn't want to release the game until it's perfect but perfection isn't possible. There will always be something else that could be improved. There are the core fans that are fine with his vision but more than a few are getting pissed that they don't get the finished game by now when they bought a package years and years ago.
> 
> Roberts seems to want to keep selling ships, hangar bay decorations, ship weapons and armor upgrades and plots of virtual land to keep the cash rolling in. All of this pulls part of his team off of just finishing the game. Why keep making ships to sell? Because people are spending a lot on them. Cloud Imperium a while back offered a Ship Package for $27,000 that contained every ship in the game. I read recently about one guy that spent $30,000 on ships. That's insane to gamble that much money on a game that might never be finished. On the other hand if he can't keep the cash rolling in then the game is certain to never be finished.


Yeah considering the most I’ve done with my one ship is walk around it n the hanger and tour the cockpi. “All he Ships Guy” must spend A LOT more time doing that...


----------



## the54thvoid (Oct 13, 2019)

For a dispassionate expose on Star Citizen, I'd like to know how many people have already 'bought' their copy of SC. I did, way back with a $75 ship purchase. Point being, when it's released, for marketing and profit; how many more people will buy in? If it's already swallowed hundreds of millions, and that investment is prepayment, how can it possibly pull in such a niche crowd? It's an fps space sim. The development model is ingenuous, but the post development sales model is hideously broken. Marketing will cost tens of millions alone. I don't think SC will work as a business, even when it's 'perfect'.


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## 64K (Oct 13, 2019)

the54thvoid said:


> For a dispassionate expose on Star Citizen, I'd like to know how many people have already 'bought' their copy of SC. I did, way back with a $75 ship purchase. Point being, when it's released, for marketing and profit; how many more people will buy in? If it's already swallowed hundreds of millions, and that investment is prepayment, how can it possibly pull in such a niche crowd? It's an fps space sim. The development model is ingenuous, but the post development sales model is hideously broken. Marketing will cost tens of millions alone. I don't think SC will work as a business, even when it's 'perfect'.



I'm one who never bought a package. I've never pre-ordered and I don't crowd fund. I want to know what I'm paying for before I buy it. I will certainly buy Squadron 42 when it's finished and patched. I will gladly pay full price if the game is as good as I think it will be when finally finished. Now I'm just one person but I have seen numerous people over the years say the same thing. According to the Star Citizen site they claim around 2.4 million Star Citizens. If that represents the number of unique people who have bought a package then my estimate is that Star Citizen will sell several million more copies when complete so if the finished game sells for $60 and sells another 3 million copies then that's another 180 million dollars in revenue. imo they could sell even more than 3 million copies after the game is completed and then there are ships that people will potentially buy, weapon and armor upgrades purchases, insurance, extras and such so who knows how much more revenue Star Citizen could generate when finished.

That is the main reason that I have never considered Star Citizen a scam. There's just too much money yet to be made when completed. When is the million dollar question.


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## Whitestar (Oct 18, 2019)

Digital Foundry:


----------



## dorsetknob (Dec 22, 2019)

*Star Citizen: Is this £200m game becoming too ambitious?*
Article from BBC.








						Star Citizen: Is this £200m game too ambitious?
					

In development since 2012 Star Citizen wants to build an entire universe for game players.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Vayra86 (Dec 22, 2019)

dorsetknob said:


> *Star Citizen: Is this £200m game becoming too ambitious?*
> Article from BBC.
> 
> 
> ...



Jesus, again? How many outlets chewed on this story now? BBC being fashionably late at it too

Ah nvm what I said  Its a neutral piece, neat! Title is a tad misleading


----------



## Khonjel (Dec 22, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Jesus, again? How many outlets chewed on this story now? BBC being fashionably late at it too
> 
> Ah nvm what I said  Its a neutral piece, neat! Title is a tad misleading


It's actually more positive piece than I thought. If it was neutral they'd interview that derreck guy and/or some confirmed refundees.

On one hand I understand the frustration this game is. Just think about it, how many backers might be dead now before being able to fully play the game.

On the other hand, the scope of this game merits the long cooking time imo. It's basically released but in early access form.
But I kinda don't get the pay2win gripe people have with outright buying ships. In real world, rich people have advantage. Same rules apply here.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 22, 2019)

Khonjel said:


> It's actually more positive piece than I thought. If it was neutral they'd interview that derreck guy and/or some confirmed refundees.
> 
> On one hand I understand the frustration this game is. Just think about it, how many backers might be dead now before being able to fully play the game.
> 
> ...



I still say the very first backers on kickstarter, aka me, should be granted like a bonus ship or two for making all this possible when no one ever heard of this game to begin with, and for them lying on when the game would ship. I have been waiting x amount of years now and no end in sight. I deserve some bonus ships.

But just like you said, the real world is corrupt, and so is this game, so eh I doubt that ever happens for me.


----------



## Vayra86 (Dec 22, 2019)

Khonjel said:


> It's actually more positive piece than I thought. If it was neutral they'd interview that derreck guy and/or some confirmed refundees.
> 
> On one hand I understand the frustration this game is. Just think about it, how many backers might be dead now before being able to fully play the game.
> 
> ...



Totally agree apart from the p2w aspect, there are ramafications to that and they influence the game experience even for those that have no interest in accruing lots of power or wealth. Its a pitfall many many MMOs have fallen into. Even without P2W there will be lots of asymmetry in the game economy and faction strengths etc. just because people have varying amounts of time to invest in it.

The presence of great asymmetry in faction power and influence may be intentional, but still, introduce a direct monetary conversion into gameplay advantage and what you get is all the filth that belong to power and money; it corrupts, and it makes things a tad too real for many who think their presence in a video game can be a substitute for whatever they lack in the real world; that is what games intend to do, but that is also why any ties with that real world are dangerous, volatile psychology.



lynx29 said:


> I still say the very first backers on kickstarter, aka me, should be granted like a bonus ship or two for making all this possible when no one ever heard of this game to begin with, and for them lying on when the game would ship. I have been waiting x amount of years now and no end in sight. I deserve some bonus ships.
> 
> But just like you said, the real world is corrupt, and so is this game, so eh I doubt that ever happens for me.



Not really. Your bonus ships are the same urge to 'cheat' in a multi player environment and the fact they sell them is also paid cheating. Its the axe on the roots of the PU as a fair playground.

The lifetime insurance on its own was bad enough already.

This whole topic comes down to: do you want whales to govern the game economy and progression rate, or would you like it tailored to healthy and sane investments of time? If you want the latter, you should oppose any and all P2W influences. If you support the former, what you will get is yet another bot infested grind and zergfest and rat race plus massive evonomy inflation and a constant race to the next best exploit. And a game that is not immersive, but feels like a rat race.

As a student of philosophy, you cannot possibly miss this..


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 22, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Totally agree apart from the p2w aspect, there are ramafications to that and they influence the game experience even for those that have no interest in accruing lots of power or wealth. Its a pitfall many many MMOs have fallen into. Even without P2W there will be lots of asymmetry in the game economy and faction strengths etc. just because people have varying amounts of time to invest in it.
> 
> The presence of great asymmetry in faction power and influence may be intentional, but still, introduce a direct monetary conversion into gameplay advantage and what you get is all the filth that belong to power and money; it corrupts, and it makes things a tad too real for many who think their presence in a video game can be a substitute for whatever they lack in the real world; that is what games intend to do, but that is also why any ties with that real world are dangerous, volatile psychology.
> 
> ...



Oh I am against P2W models of every kind, I'm just being realistic that the CEO of Roberts Space Industries doesn't give a damn about what me or you think, quite frankly, if I could get my $25 kickstarted investment back from 7 years ago I'd gladly do so. This game has not interested me in the slightest, I tried it once last year and it was so unoptimized... horrible experience on gtx 1070. eh. screw it at this point.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Dec 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Oh I am against P2W models of every kind, I'm just being realistic that the CEO of Roberts Space Industries doesn't give a damn about what me or you think, quite frankly, if I could get my $25 kickstarted investment back from 7 years ago I'd gladly do so. This game has not interested me in the slightest, I tried it once last year and it was so unoptimized... horrible experience on gtx 1070. eh. screw it at this point.


Like all p2w models in all games, the only time the devs care about it is when the community as a whole starts barking wildly about it and it starts costing the developers profits. It's no surprise thats the CEO's current attitude, he will be that way until he starts losing money when the player base starts to disappear. Look what Archeage was "forced" to do, [sadly] they madescammed enough players to make a non-p2w version.


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## bpgt64 (Dec 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Oh I am against P2W models of every kind, I'm just being realistic that the CEO of Roberts Space Industries doesn't give a damn about what me or you think, quite frankly, if I could get my $25 kickstarted investment back from 7 years ago I'd gladly do so. This game has not interested me in the slightest, I tried it once last year and it was so unoptimized... horrible experience on gtx 1070. eh. screw it at this point.



You really should give it another go, they just introduced SOCS(server side object container streaming).  I am getting about 60 FPS at 4K on a 2080 ti... it’s still buggy but it’s a lot better than it was....


----------



## moproblems99 (Dec 23, 2019)

bpgt64 said:


> You really should give it another go, they just introduced SOCS(server side object container streaming).  I am getting about 60 FPS at 4K on a 2080 ti... it’s still buggy but it’s a lot better than it was....



S42 or Open Worldy kind of stuff?


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## R-T-B (Dec 23, 2019)

bpgt64 said:


> You really should give it another go, they just introduced SOCS(server side object container streaming).  I am getting about 60 FPS at 4K on a 2080 ti... it’s still buggy but it’s a lot better than it was....



That's nice and all, but I literally ran Elite with "high" settings at first on a GTX 580...

Granted, this game is probably prettier than the elite beta.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Oh I am against P2W models of every kind, I'm just being realistic that the CEO of Roberts Space Industries doesn't give a damn about what me or you think, quite frankly, if I could get my $25 kickstarted investment back from 7 years ago I'd gladly do so. This game has not interested me in the slightest, I tried it once last year and it was so unoptimized... horrible experience on gtx 1070. eh. screw it at this point.



Doesn't that investment still get you SQ42? I also pledged 35 and it included that, at least.


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## bug (Dec 23, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Doesn't that investment still get you SQ42? I also pledged 35 and it included that, at least.


And by "included" you mean you got about squat so far


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## Space Lynx (Dec 23, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Doesn't that investment still get you SQ42? I also pledged 35 and it included that, at least.



I only pledged 25, so I am not sure. I will have to login to my kickstarter and check.


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## kapone32 (Dec 23, 2019)

This is absolutely insane. The one truism for me is that if Star Citizen releases after CP 2077 it will wait even longer for me to play.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 23, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> This is absolutely insane. The one truism for me is that if Star Citizen releases after CP 2077 it will wait even longer for me to play.




even if it is released before then it will not be fully done, they will constantly be polishing and adding stuff. really it's a never ending early access concept of a game.  /shrug

but hey, the CEO gets to home to a mansion and a nice mini-yacht from the pictures I seen he lives very very well, so more power to him for being able to scam everyone legally.


----------



## kapone32 (Dec 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> even if it is released before then it will not be fully done, they will constantly be polishing and adding stuff. really it's a never ending early access concept of a game.  /shrug
> 
> but hey, the CEO gets to home to a mansion and a nice mini-yacht from the pictures I seen he lives very very well, so more power to him for being able to scam everyone legally.



Exactly I am actually surprised (or I think there has been) that a class Action lawsuit has not been filed against Cloud Imperium. How long has it been 10 years? I am not even sure anymore.


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## londiste (Dec 23, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> This is absolutely insane. The one truism for me is that if Star Citizen releases after CP 2077 it will wait even longer for me to play.


Cyberpunk 2077 has been in planning to some degree since 2011 or 2012.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 23, 2019)

londiste said:


> Cyberpunk 2077 has been in planning to some degree since 2011 or 2012.



but they didn't tell us it would be out in two to three years while taking my money upfront either... so...


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## kapone32 (Dec 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> but they didn't tell us it would be out in two to three years while taking my money upfront either... so...



Yes but look at the Game and we actually have a real release date, there is nothing to compare it to while SC has Elite and a bunch of other Space SIms to contend with.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 23, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> Yes but look at the Game and we actually have a real release date, there is nothing to compare it to while SC has Elite and a bunch of other Space SIms to contend with.



I think that just makes it sadder, since they had more things they could just copy paste... lol


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## dj-electric (Dec 23, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> This is absolutely insane. The one truism for me is that if Star Citizen releases after CP 2077 it will wait even longer for me to play.


FTFY.

Honsely, i think that technologically SC is amazing, but the feature creep is so gigantic, i do not see the game as being final before some years ahead. Looking at the content they provided in the past 12 months compered to the final goals of the game, it would technically take another 6-7 years.


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## kapone32 (Dec 23, 2019)

dj-electric said:


> FTFY.
> 
> Honsely, i think that technologically SC is amazing, but the feature creep is so gigantic, i do not see the game as being final before some years ahead. Looking at the content they provided in the past 12 months compered to the final goals of the game, it would technically take another 6-7 years.



Just to put that in perspective we were promised the game in 2012 then they announced Squadron 42 and therefore the game would release in 2014 it is now 5 years later. In terms of content yes I agree with you but what is the point of all of this content if you cannot actually play the real game. I too would love to have $20000 of disposable income to buy that Capital ship(s) they are offering. Don't get me wrong Space Sims are one of my favourite genres but SC reeks of a true lack of logistics.


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## INSTG8R (Dec 23, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> This is absolutely insane. The one truism for me is that if Star Citizen releases after CP 2077 it will wait even longer for me to play.


Just for perspective because I checked again today....


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## Chomiq (Dec 23, 2019)

Surprised to see BBC make a 12 minute video about it:








						Star Citizen: Is this £200m game too ambitious?
					

In development since 2012 Star Citizen wants to build an entire universe for game players.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 23, 2019)

kapone32 said:


> Just to put that in perspective we were promised the game in 2012 then they announced Squadron 42 and therefore the game would release in 2014 it is now 5 years later. In terms of content yes I agree with you but what is the point of all of this content if you cannot actually play the real game. I too would love to have $20000 of disposable income to buy that Capital ship(s) they are offering. Don't get me wrong Space Sims are one of my favourite genres but SC reeks of a true lack of logistics.



I think they forgot how expansion packs work... give us a polished smaller game now, then add expansions later... instead of a buggy mess


----------



## moproblems99 (Dec 23, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I think they forgot how expansion packs work... give us a polished smaller game now, then add expansions later... instead of a buggy mess



Why wait for expansions when people will keep shelling out now?  Pretty soon oxygen reserves on Mars will be for sale for a low, low price of $39.95.


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## Vayra86 (Dec 24, 2019)

bug said:


> And by "included" you mean you got about squat so far



Sure but then I never set a 'due date' for myself when I tossed my 35 bucks at Roberts. I did that only because of the brilliance and scope of the concept, as it read like a dream coming true - with the knowledge most dreams are called as such because that's what they are 

Regardless, legally, I do believe I was sold a service/product with a summary of things it contained and SQ42 was in it along with the starter ship and early access. In fact most if not all pledges were like that. The earliest versions also included a lifetime insurance on the included in it, but that was somehow altered, or at least they stopped selling that. And rightly so. But I think I'm entitled to a full refund if the product is not as advertised anyway... 



INSTG8R said:


> Just for perspective because I checked again today....
> View attachment 140198



Did it count down from last time? If so, all is well 



kapone32 said:


> Just to put that in perspective we were promised the game in 2012 then they announced Squadron 42 and therefore the game would release in 2014 it is now 5 years later. In terms of content yes I agree with you but what is the point of all of this content if you cannot actually play the real game. I too would love to have $20000 of disposable income to buy that Capital ship(s) they are offering. Don't get me wrong Space Sims are one of my favourite genres but SC reeks of a true lack of logistics.



See this is the sentiment I don't quite understand. Did you log in yet?

The game is being developed with a wide open build for the community. As in, alpha. You can actually SEE the progress that is being made and anyone who's gone into it, I'm sure has to agree there is quite a lot already done. I mean, I've already played deathmatches in FPS mode, I've walked around space stations in a live player hub and I could dogfight with other players at a glorious 100+ FPS in max settings and with impeccably detailed ships all around. What's really missing, in the larger scheme of things, is the actual content. But really, that is the easy part. The harder part is creating the framework to build your content around and they did start from scratch; no assets from past titles, no nothing, and even some mid-development engine woes with CryEngine > Lumberyard and also major adaptations to it.

Another thing that will have likely happened with Lumberyard is a performance/graphical shift. When dev work started, the scope for GPU development and the progress in it was different from today. Also, new API's have come round. Windows 10 is now the thing instead of 7. Etc etc. All of these things pile onto a long dev cycle.

Regardless, what we've been getting lately has been regular new builds with actual content updates, new things, and fixes. This points at work being done, at a decent 'burn rate' for the project tasks, which translates to actual progress towards a set end goal. Teams and projects need those goals, and trust me they have them, otherwise you can't run a project.

Now, does Roberts keep wanting more? Sure! Will he get everything? Hell no. Is some of it purely there to milk more? Obviously, I dare say most of it. But, the crowd seems to be a fantastic cash cow so far. What more can you ask for as a project leader, when you can just conjure up more budget?

The moment those sales start to die down is the moment we oughta worry, and thát will be the moment Roberts is forced to shut the hell up and get product out. You have to understand: this is _a crowd funded project. _If the crowd stops funding, the project must finish. The alternative really isn't pretty for the gaming biz, for Roberts, faith in the industry and all of its employees, etc. I doubt that's the intention.


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## bug (Dec 24, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Sure but then I never set a 'due date' for myself when I tossed my 35 bucks at Roberts. I did that only because of the brilliance and scope of the concept, as it read like a dream coming true - with the knowledge most dreams are called as such because that's what they are
> 
> Regardless, legally, I do believe I was sold a service/product with a summary of things it contained and SQ42 was in it along with the starter ship and early access. In fact most if not all pledges were like that. The earliest versions also included a lifetime insurance on the included in it, but that was somehow altered, or at least they stopped selling that. And rightly so. But I think I'm entitled to a full refund if the product is not as advertised anyway...



I might have done the same had I not had this rule that says "if you must show support, wait for the beta at least".


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## INSTG8R (Dec 25, 2019)

Vayra86 said:


> Did it count down from last time? If so, all is well


It does continue to decrease, at least someone knows how to stick to schedule


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## Whitestar (Feb 11, 2020)

Impressive tech


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## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2020)

Whitestar said:


> Impressive tech



Meh.  As far as scale Elite has already had the entire milky way for years now, hard to contend with that.

I don't wish it ill, mind, I hope you do all get a game.  My point is it's "impressive featurelist" is slowly being implemented elsewhere, making it less impressive overall.


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## AsRock (Feb 11, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Meh.  As far as scale Elite has already had the entire milky way for years now, hard to contend with that.
> 
> I don't wish it ill, mind, I hope you do all get a game.  My point is it's "impressive featurelist" is slowly being implemented elsewhere, making it less impressive overall.



yeah i don't think  should even aim any thing close to ED size as the content required as it would need a epic amount.

Recently been getting the itch to play that game again, only reason i stopped playing was due to getting controllers that i liked with it.

They would added a to of new things since i last played too. started to notice more people from here playing it as of late.

I do not even dare to check what's changed over the last 16 months or i being wanting a new controller again haha, already have 1147 hours in it and it was a blast even more when they added landing o other planets.


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## Ferrum Master (Feb 11, 2020)

I just checked up yesterday late night. It was pretty stable btw and full of active people.


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## Whitestar (Feb 11, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> As far as scale Elite has already had the entire milky way for years now, hard to contend with that.


I don't really think of it as one competing with the other (even if they might be in reality), just two different games with different features/experiences.


> I don't wish it ill, mind, I hope you do all get a game.


Why "you"? Don't you want it yourself?  I don't have any money invested in it btw.


> its "impressive featurelist" is slowly being implemented elsewhere, making it less impressive overall.


Do you have any specific game in mind, or do you just mean dev tech progress in general? Either way I still think this tech is impressive, regardless of how many others are making use of it.


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## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2020)

Whitestar said:


> Why "you"? Don't you want it yourself?



No, not really.  There are some design decisions that bug me.  I personally got what I wanted with Elite.


----------



## Splinterdog (May 22, 2020)

According to PC Gamer, Star Citizen is free to try for eleven days. Quite how you do that is anyone's guess because this page asks for your money, or maybe I'm getting this wrong?


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## Eskimonster (May 22, 2020)

The saga of 300 mill $ continiued..... i cant even imagine how to waste soooo many money..


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## Vayra86 (May 22, 2020)

Splinterdog said:


> According to PC Gamer, Star Citizen is free to try for eleven days. Quite how you do that is anyone's guess because this page asks for your money, or maybe I'm getting this wrong?



Yeah, no, that link doesn't really go places for me  Just a 45 dollar package

So... 3.9 now huh. I've kinda lost interest here, or, just blocked it out until I see some news post about it going live at last  Is there a milestone ahead of us now where they might move to that point? Or still in limbo? Anyone?



R-T-B said:


> No, not really.  There are some design decisions that bug me.  I personally got what I wanted with Elite.



Yeah that impression is growing with me too. Do I really need a PU and hyper detailed ships...I wonder. Its not like Elite is lacking in the flightsim department, or immersion wise... and the game is pretty fleshed out now.



Whitestar said:


> Impressive tech



Really cool and blindingly obvious that they NEED something like this to populate the universe. Which inevitably leads us to the harsh conclusion this is likely to devolve into the same RNG we know procedural games for; if you've seen every tile set, you've seen everything. Even No Man's Sky still can't avoid that problem today. Its a fundamental issue of procedural generation... we are too good at recognizing things, patterns, structures. If its not unique, we will notice.


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## Dinnercore (May 23, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Even No Man's Sky still can't avoid that problem today. Its a fundamental issue of procedural generation... we are too good at recognizing things, patterns, structures. If its not unique, we will notice.


My hope is that the PU-MMO can fill the gap, like it does in EVE. Huge player-based Corps building bases, structures, politics.


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## r.h.p (Jun 17, 2020)

Eskimonster said:


> The saga of 300 mill $ continiued..... i cant even imagine how to waste soooo many money..



i was 1 of those , in 2012 i gave 40 bucks as a startup backer , haven't even tried to play it for 5 years lol


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 17, 2020)

r.h.p said:


> i was 1 of those , in 2012 i gave 40 bucks as a startup backer , haven't even tried to play it for 5 years lol


I am a backer since 2014 with (apparently) a:

Mustang Alpha
1,000 UEC
3 Month Insurance
Digital Star Citizen Manual
Star Citizen Digital Download
Squadron 42 Digital Download
It seems that what I backed for $39 is now selling for $78.00. I guess Squadron 42 has been split out from Star Citizen and they decided to charge once for each?

Apart from one brief wander around an empty hangar a few years ago, I haven't actually loaded the game. Is it even remotely worth downloading yet?


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## Dinnercore (Jun 17, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Apart from one brief wander around an empty hangar a few years ago, I haven't actually loaded the game. Is it even remotely worth downloading yet?


Depends what kind of experience you are looking for. If you want to get a grasp of what Star Citizen is doing at the moment it is worth the download. There is a lot to see and a few things you can do in the alpha at the moment, but it is still rather limited. 
For some fun dog-fights and testing out your ship or getting some nice screenshots of beautiful environments its well worth the time. 

Your ship is flight-ready so you can join on the alpha and go explore it.

If you want to actually play something, don't bother. There are a few test-missions but no progress is really saved, there will be another big wipe clearing everything atleast once before the beta rolls out and while that is still far away you might regret building up credits now, buying some ships ingame only to find out you will loose it all again.

Sadly you also just missed fleet-week. A free-fly event where you can join the game and test out a few of the flyable ships for free. (well maybe not so sad that you missed it, it was a connection nightmare with server errors left and right).


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## WhiteNoise (Jun 17, 2020)

I'm a backer since 2013 when i purchased the
*Colonel - LTI Pledge*
I later purchased the super hornet upgrade (the Colonel pack came with a standard Hornet)
I don't even remember how much i spent on the upgrade but the main pledge was $125


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## R-T-B (Jun 17, 2020)

That estimated delivery is kinda cringe though...


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## Dinnercore (Jun 17, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> That estimated delivery is kinda cringe though...


Yeah it is. But put it in perspective, at that time the funding was below 20 million and they did not expect that people kept throwing cash at them ultimatly expanding all of the stretch-goals. If they had stopped at 20m$ they would have atleast run out of money years ago and might have gone for a slightly less complex approach. 

But they got just another 15 million $ in may this year. One month equal to the sum they gathered over the whole first year.

People keep throwing money at it and increase the sum they spend with each passing year, while at the same time demanding more and more features and asking to implement every idea that anyone on the team ever had. RSI is in a comfortable spot, as long as the crowd keeps throwing money.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 17, 2020)

Dinnercore said:


> Depends what kind of experience you are looking for. If you want to get a grasp of what Star Citizen is doing at the moment it is worth the download. There is a lot to see and a few things you can do in the alpha at the moment, but it is still rather limited.
> For some fun dog-fights and testing out your ship or getting some nice screenshots of beautiful environments its well worth the time.
> 
> Your ship is flight-ready so you can join on the alpha and go explore it.
> ...


Thanks for the info. I'll be waiting for the beta I think, perhaps indefinitely but I can hope!


----------



## WhiteNoise (Jun 17, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> That estimated delivery is kinda cringe though...



Yes and I don't even expect to receive any of the hard stuff like the thumb drive, map, hard cover manual, etc. I mean maybe I will like when I'm 70 and happen to check the mail and find my damn game map and stuff. Hopefully I'll still be gaming then. Hell maybe I'll leave my account to my son. He's 5 so when i croak maybe sometime in my son's twenties or so, he can play my game when it releases.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jun 17, 2020)

just waiting for the Crowdfunding request for the VR Version..............................


----------



## Splinterdog (Jun 18, 2020)

Dinnercore said:


> RSI is in a comfortable spot, as long as the crowd keeps throwing money.


...for a game that is not even practical to play, it seems.
I had considered it but even the cheapest deal at $45 seems like a complete waste when it's not even at the beta stage yet.


----------



## bug (Jun 18, 2020)

Splinterdog said:


> ...for a game that is not even practical to play, it seems.
> I had considered it but even the cheapest deal at $45 seems like a complete waste when it's not even at the beta stage yet.


It's not even clear what you're supporting at this point. Crowdfunding makes some sense for independent, poor developers with good/great ideas that don't want to deal with a publisher. Crowdfunding for a company that has raked in $300mn+ and still hasn't delivered a beta version years later is a bit harder to explain.


----------



## Decryptor009 (Jun 18, 2020)

What is this irrelevant game you speak of?


----------



## bug (Jun 18, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> What is this irrelevant game you speak of?


It's not irrelevant, it could be a great title if it ever comes to fruition. It's just that discussing anything about it has become pointless in the meantime.


----------



## Assimilator (Jun 18, 2020)

bug said:


> It's not irrelevant, it could be a great title if it ever comes to fruition. It's just that discussing anything about it has become pointless in the meantime.



It's relevant because it's the biggest scam ever perpetrated in the videogame industry, and quite possibly one of the largest in history. A scam that idiots continue to buy into.

I would love to work for Cloud Imperium Games. I imagine that a typical day at the office involves 7 hours of jacking off and an hour laughing at people who paid money for the game.

And yes, if you backed this game, I did call you an idiot. That was not a mistake and I will not apologise for it. You are an idiot if you preorder something, you are a bigger idiot if you back a KickStarter because at least with the former you are guaranteed to get something for your money at the end of the day.


----------



## R0H1T (Jun 18, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> It's relevant because it's the biggest scam ever perpetrated in the videogame industry, and quite possibly one of the *largest in history*. A scam that idiots continue to buy into.


I'd argue (modern day) *Capitalism* is also a *scam* but that's a much larger "philosophical" debate with no obvious light at the end of the tunnel, ciao


----------



## bug (Jun 18, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> It's relevant because it's the biggest scam ever perpetrated in the videogame industry, and quite possibly one of the largest in history. A scam that idiots continue to buy into.
> 
> I would love to work for Cloud Imperium Games. I imagine that a typical day at the office involves 7 hours of jacking off and an hour laughing at people who paid money for the game.
> 
> And yes, if you backed this game, I did call you an idiot. That was not a mistake and I will not apologise for it. You are an idiot if you preorder something, you are a bigger idiot if you back a KickStarter because at least with the former you are guaranteed to get something for your money at the end of the day.


I was just saying there's nothing discussion-worthy about SC. Nothing in your post suggests otherwise.
And I will not call those that backed the game names. They're free to do with their money as they see fit.


----------



## dont whant to set it"' (Jun 18, 2020)

Anyhow, it's in the budget realm of an in Earth's orbit space imaging telescope.


----------



## r.h.p (Jun 20, 2020)

r.h.p said:


> i was 1 of those , in 2012 i gave 40 bucks as a startup backer , haven't even tried to play it for 5 years lol



ok so after 2 days ive dl the star citizen . So far i have left the planet and jumped to positions in the galaxy . The game is Very Resources hungry , but my system did it all good at 1440p ultra 
so after 8 years i spent 40 bucks , to fly around in space which is what i wanted anyway ...


----------



## dorsetknob (Jun 20, 2020)

r.h.p said:


> so after 8 years i spent 40 bucks , to fly around in space which is what i wanted anyway ...


Space is pretty Empty ........>>>> and no one can hear you SCREAM "wot i wasted 40 Bucks on this"
Sorry for bringing the mike


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 20, 2020)

My friend who I built the new PC for was playing the game last night and I never actually saw the gameplay itself.  So he streamed it for me on discord and it looks alright.  The NPC's are bland from what I saw in most of the space stations except for one city on one of the planets.  And there is no NPC dialogue from what I can tell.  And he told me there are no monsters (aliens) so I was kind of disappointed.  Although, he said they are adding in some kind of Yeti on one of the planets as a monster so that sounded kinda cool.

He told me he ended up spending quite a bit more than $500 on the game initially.  I said that he told me it was $500.  But he refused to tell me how much cause he knows I and his roommate will ridicule him for it.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 20, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> My friend who I built the new PC for was playing the game last night and I never actually saw the gameplay itself.  So he streamed it for me on discord and it looks alright.  The NPC's are bland from what I saw in most of the space stations except for one city on one of the planets.  And there is no NPC dialogue from what I can tell.  And he told me there are no monsters (aliens) so I was kind of disappointed.  Although, he said they are adding in some kind of Yeti on one of the planets as a monster so that sounded kinda cool.
> 
> He told me he ended up spending quite a bit more than $500 on the game initially.  I said that he told me it was $500.  But he refused to tell me how much cause he knows I and his roommate will ridicule him for it.



I must say, for all this drama it was 35 dollars well spent by now.

I mean, this just keeps on giving 

On a more serious note; what I've seen from the game, the dogfights and the FPS mode... was just very smooth and good gameplay. I managed to get into the flow of dogfighting quite well, even if there are a ton of things to know and get used to; but I actually managed to hit stuff, the skill cap is high, and you can do crazy stuff with your ship. The FPS thing was buttery smooth and responsive. FWIW... that was all solid game design I saw.

I'm holding on to that, desperately, by now.


----------



## Decryptor009 (Jun 20, 2020)

Won't we need something along the lines of RTX 5090 recommended spec with Ryzen 4950XT ?

1,000,000,000 writes / reads per second storage.


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 20, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> I must say, for all this drama it was 35 dollars well spent by now.
> 
> I mean, this just keeps on giving
> 
> ...



I know nothing of the game.  Just what he tells me and shows me.  I found it interesting but it runs terribly.  His 3700X machine is fine but that Vega 56 is just lacking at the game on high details (he has it at max at 1080p, I told him to lower it and he said no).  He was showing me his space ship and I just kinda laughed.  I told him if I ever pick it up, I'll be his Scotty in the game.


----------



## r.h.p (Jun 20, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I know nothing of the game.  Just what he tells me and shows me.  I found it interesting but it runs terribly.  His 3700X machine is fine but that Vega 56 is just lacking at the game on high details (he has it at max at 1080p, I told him to lower it and he said no).  He was showing me his space ship and I just kinda laughed.  I told him if I ever pick it up, I'll be his Scotty in the game.


yeah my 5700xt just keeps up , and the game uses 12gb of mem ,...


----------



## Dinnercore (Jun 20, 2020)

r.h.p said:


> yeah my 5700xt just keeps up , and the game uses 12gb of mem ,...


You are already hitting your memory limit, I have 32GB and it uses 24GB right from the start and climbs up to 28GB.


----------



## Decryptor009 (Jun 20, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> Won't we need something along the lines of RTX 5090 recommended spec with Ryzen 4950XT ?
> 
> 1,000,000,000 writes / reads per second storage.


128GB ram too.


----------



## Dinnercore (Jun 20, 2020)

Decryptor009 said:


> Won't we need something along the lines of RTX 5090 recommended spec with Ryzen 4950XT ?
> 
> 1,000,000,000 writes / reads per second storage.





Decryptor009 said:


> 128GB ram too.


Oh cmon its not that insane. More and more games start to push 16GB RAM to the limit.

For what it is, SC is not super hardware intensive. The issue with performance atm is the alpha-state of the game. No config can push far beyond 60fps, doesn't matter what you have and at the same time an RTX 2060 can hold 40fps at 1440p for me. In fact it performed very similar to my RTX 2080 Super.

We can't say where the requirements will land, but the optimization stage has yet to come in so if you can play it now above 30fps you should be fine for the future. 32GB RAM and installed on an SSD and you are good to go. Even 16GB can run ok, they did a good job to make use of what your system has. 

Seeing so many voices trashing the alpha for not having features or e.g. the NPCs walking funny and not interactable. Guys, its still an alpha. Of course its rough. Yes its super delayed and the people who see it as a scam have their valid points, but stop expecting a full game from a project in alpha.

Just to throw something out there, Cyberpunk 2077 took the same time to develop so far (maybe even longer) and it was build with a team only modifying an engine they knew the ins and outs of. They were already a connected group with work experience together and still took 7 years to, not even yet, finish.
Star Citizen is one step above a game like Cyberpunk in complexity and density and adds the persistant MMO aspect on top. And the whole staff had to grow into it, they had to modify and partly rebuild a game-engine that was previously unknown to the team members.

As little as there is to see and play, I'm still impressed that they did come up with something for the alpha and that they actually aim to implement all of the mindbending content. As it stands the alpha is already super enjoyable if you are into the simulation aspect of sci-fi and maybe enjoy a bit of role-play and deep diving into the atmosphere. 
The designwork that went into the ships for example is beyond anything I have ever seen before. 

Will it ever be complete? I don't know. I hope not, because it would imply they stop working on it at some point in the future. I'd rather like to see them establish a long term funding plan and continue to expand this project for decades. 
So far it looks very promising. They got in a lot of new players during fleet-week and despite people trashing the alpha-state of the game and the super long 'perceived' development period, more and more people get interested and decide to drop money on it. 

If you think this is a cheap project with no results and all just pooling money for roberts yacht-collection, then why do people who play the buggy alpha for the first time during fleet-week and experience heavy server issues and disconnects, still decide to spend 200-1500$ on this? And you have to sign off that you know this is burned money, they warn you that you may not ever receive anything. 
It has the ghost of something huge starting to show through. If this project continues in the direction its heading, no matter the pace, it will be something super unique. I also don't see anything beyond it ever touching the same level of detail-density any time soon. Maybe we will be there some day when AI takes over coding, if civilisations even hold up the next few decades. 

Sorry for the wall, wanted to drop some thoughts off


----------



## moproblems99 (Jun 20, 2020)

Dinnercore said:


> to throw something out there, Cyberpunk 2077 took the same time to develop so far (maybe even longer) and it was build with a team only modifying an engine they knew the ins and outs of.



The difference is hardcore programming didn't start until after TW3 and expansions were delivered, so 4-5 years.  And it has a release date, sort of.

Cloud Imperium's biggest mistake is not finishing the game promised in the beginning and then adding the add-ons.  However, I believe they did it this way to keep extracting money and creating an infinite development timeline.  I do believe the game will be completed but not until people stop throwing stupid money at them which will force them to make hard decisions.  That will prove whether it was a scam or just mismanagement.


----------



## bug (Jun 20, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> My friend who I built the new PC for was playing the game last night and I never actually saw the gameplay itself.  So he streamed it for me on discord and it looks alright.  The NPC's are bland from what I saw in most of the space stations except for one city on one of the planets.  And there is no NPC dialogue from what I can tell.  And he told me there are no monsters (aliens) so I was kind of disappointed.  Although, he said they are adding in some kind of Yeti on one of the planets as a monster so that sounded kinda cool.
> 
> He told me he ended up spending quite a bit more than $500 on the game initially.  I said that he told me it was $500.  But he refused to tell me how much cause he knows I and his roommate will ridicule him for it.


Oh goodie. I mean, what space sim is worth anything if it doesn't feature Yeti on a planet? Clearly that was a major roadblock in getting SC released


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 20, 2020)

bug said:


> Oh goodie. I mean, what space sim is worth anything if it doesn't feature Yeti on a planet? Clearly that was a major roadblock in getting SC released



Don't be knocking the galactic yeti.

I asked him if those Dune spice worms was in the game as shown in the trailer years ago. Apparently not either. I was excited to see them.

I know it's alpha. But with the budget they got, I would expect a bit more than what exists now.  Although, maybe I'm expecting too much.


----------



## Dinnercore (Jun 21, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> The difference is hardcore programming didn't start until after TW3[...]


I don't see the 'difference'? SC could not start 'hardcore' programming of keypoints right away too. In fact they had a bigger roadblock then just getting another game on a known engine out first, they had to get involved with the community and put everything on a drawing board. They started from absolute 0.

SC still can't start development on certain functions because of roadblocks in the timeline. You can't start building a house by going roof first. While triple A titles just move into a ready made home and start decorating it by using the underlying engine.

So what I was saying is that SC is a completly new construction from nothing. They had to assemble every minor resource from office chairs to Windows 10 keys.


----------



## bug (Jun 21, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Don't be knocking the galactic yeti.
> 
> I asked him if those Dune spice worms was in the game as shown in the trailer years ago. Apparently not either. I was excited to see them.
> 
> I know it's alpha. But with the budget they got, I would expect a bit more than what exists now.  Although, maybe I'm expecting too much.


Yeah, well, with the "focus" Mr Roberts is known for, all we can expect is more fundraisers. Everything else is a bonus


----------



## R-T-B (Jun 21, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Don't be knocking the galactic yeti.



Yeah, that's how Skywalker nearly got eaten.


----------



## robot zombie (Jun 21, 2020)

moproblems99 said:


> The difference is hardcore programming didn't start until after TW3 and expansions were delivered, so 4-5 years.  And it has a release date, sort of.
> 
> Cloud Imperium's biggest mistake is not finishing the game promised in the beginning and then adding the add-ons.  However, I believe they did it this way to keep extracting money and creating an infinite development timeline.  I do believe the game will be completed but not until people stop throwing stupid money at them which will force them to make hard decisions.  That will prove whether it was a scam or just mismanagement.


That's an interesting perspective. Maybe someone could have Triad members with AK-103's and MAC11's knock on Chris Roberts' door to say 'hi'?

I mean, maybe people are just using their money the wrong way?

For real though... this is the problem with crowdsourcing. This whole idea of "...and we could do it all, _if only we had the money!_" It simply isn't true. Problems don't go away by simply throwing money at them. At this point it is all sunk cost fallacy, meaning at some point, one party or another is going to have to cut their losses and walk away. The question is... who's first? _Somebody_ is getting burned here.


----------



## R0H1T (Jun 21, 2020)

Dinnercore said:


> If you think this is a cheap project with no results and all just pooling money for roberts yacht-collection, then *why do people who play the buggy alpha for the first time during fleet-week and experience heavy server issues and disconnects, still decide to spend 200-1500$ on this*?


Well just because Tom Cruise joined Scientology doesn't make it any less of a *cult*, does it? Herd mentality is still a thing, also when people say they're willing to wait are they really waiting for the game or just an outcome to this *saga*? If there's a ponzi scheme, heck MLM in the gaming realm this would arguably be the perfect example of it!


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 21, 2020)

Dinnercore said:


> I don't see the 'difference'? SC could not start 'hardcore' programming of keypoints right away too. In fact they had a bigger roadblock then just getting another game on a known engine out first, they had to get involved with the community and put everything on a drawing board. They started from absolute 0.
> 
> SC still can't start development on certain functions because of roadblocks in the timeline. You can't start building a house by going roof first. While triple A titles just move into a ready made home and start decorating it by using the underlying engine.
> 
> So what I was saying is that SC is a completly new construction from nothing. They had to assemble every minor resource from office chairs to Windows 10 keys.



This is not true, though. RSI started with CryEngine and they iterated on it, quite simply, and at some point it turned to Lumberyard. They may not have all functions but they definitely had a framework and its not as 'from scratch' as you might think. There was a codebase to work from. What is mostly new in there is not the code, its the team. Its a pretty big team, scattered across the world, with zero work experience, no company culture, nothing. Those minds had to come together and yes, create new _systems_. But they do it on an existing engine; they just tweak it. Their whole megaserver approach isn't frontier work either, even if they might name it differently. They're just borrowing what the market for MMO's is doing at large, making it fully scalable. Best practices.

CDPR though is using the same teams for a long time now, of course with personell changes over the years (devs did and do leave them for high work pressure and so-so planning of projects and impact analysis), and their engine is largely in-house, which means they know it through and through and _own the code. _That can be a big one, having core knowledge inhouse or not.

Major differences but neither started from nothing. Almost ALL work is derivative.

As to your question of why people sink thousands of dollars into it...








						Obsessive–compulsive disorder - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Loneliness - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Wishful thinking - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Gullibility - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The list is long, but let's just face it.

And the most important one, that also carries MTX and F2P-Pay2Win, lootbox etc. This is the angle, translate to video games and all of their sales components and aspects. The casino is the game you play.









						How Casinos Use Design Psychology to Get You to Gamble More
					

Everyone's heard that there are no clocks or windows in casinos so that gamblers won't realize how long they've been losing money. But is this actually design gospel? And does it work? According to research, it turns out that the most successful casino design may not be the dark, maze-like...




					io9.gizmodo.com
				




To save you a read:





Roberts makes sure people can always return to gamble. Its the essence of all those 'investments' people make.


----------



## Dinnercore (Jun 21, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> But they do it on an existing engine; they just tweak it.


You mistook my point there, the start from zero was meant not that they lacked an engine, I meant they had to start before even working with the engine. They had to take all the stretch goals they promised and sketched out a project workflow from that mess.
Yes they had the Cry-Engine to start with, but my point there is the same that you mentioned. They were new with all of this, they had a codebase but never worked with it before. Other studios usually are very familiar with their engine and know the ins and outs.

And it goes a bit beyond tweaking when you have to add so many new functions that did not exist before. I'd like to see you just 'tweak' the Cry-Engine into doing what it does for Star Citizen at the moment.

I get the gambling aspect, but I don't think all Star Citizen backers are depressed young adults in their 20s who try to get some serotonin out of wasting huge amounts of money. The audience is mostly 30+, and integrated in their families.

When I made my purchases I just wanted to fly the ship in the current alpha. I enjoy the alpha, I spend hundreds of hours in it and I just ended up wanting to fly another ship. For me the game is already there, but I'm a weirdo who enjoys soft roleplay and immersion over main gameplay features.


----------



## FremenDar666 (Jun 26, 2020)

I'd rather play ELITE: Dangerous.


----------



## r.h.p (Nov 10, 2020)

update on star citizen , actually starting to really like the game now. i have :

bought a new armour and helmet 
" pistol magazines 
" refreshed myself with a soda and muesli bar 
" installed new missile racks and missiles 
" went to the bar and drank beer and a whiskey  ( didn't get drunk , maybe that will come later ) 
all this was bought with money i had been accumulated since being a original backer , $40 aus in 2012 

Been slowly getting used to flying and spooling the drive to points picking up packages and making some money. Got fined several times for not stopping to be scanned by cops .
Picked a job to destroy a overrun mingy claim by pirates , and Man this were it got interesting , the hole ship lit up with warnings from hostile targets and fuck me it was on great battle 
and graphics even though i lost  the space sim gameplay was second to none . Se ya in the Verse hehe


----------



## sepheronx (Nov 10, 2020)

Was the Galactic Yeti added yet?


----------



## r.h.p (Nov 10, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Was the Galactic Yeti added yet?



lol fuck knows , but there is player with Alien head hehe some upgrade month thing .....


----------



## Whitestar (Nov 10, 2020)

Haven't been following this title for a while. How's the progress?


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 10, 2020)

bug said:


> It's not even clear what you're supporting at this point. Crowdfunding makes some sense for independent, poor developers with good/great ideas that don't want to deal with a publisher. Crowdfunding for a company that has raked in $300mn+ and still hasn't delivered a beta version years later is a bit harder to explain.



Why didn't the guy just disappear with the $300m instead of trying to fool himself that he could actually do this. nice to see he is spending the money on the game, instead of dumb doors for the offices


----------



## Chrispy_ (Nov 10, 2020)

r.h.p said:


> update on star citizen , actually starting to really like the game now. i have :
> 
> bought a new armour and helmet
> " pistol magazines
> ...


I will definitely not play it until at least the beta
Getting a half-baked, barely half-complete alpha is just going to leave me wanting, and then I'll jump on the bandwagon with impatience.
I've waited 8 years, I can probably put it off for at least a couple more....


----------



## r.h.p (Nov 11, 2020)

Whitestar said:


> Haven't been following this title for a while. How's the progress?





Chrispy_ said:


> I will definitely not play it until at least the beta
> Getting a half-baked, barely half-complete alpha is just going to leave me wanting, and then I'll jump on the bandwagon with impatience.
> I've waited 8 years, I can probably put it off for at least a couple more....



yeah same last night in the verse i discovered i cant missile lock and fire  change the buttons still didnt help .. also my purchases wont load onto my jet ... spewing big time
fuckin spending money on drinks and eating works but ! stuff that . Still its promising , se you in another year lol


----------



## 64K (Aug 8, 2021)

I know this thread is old but I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread for this. Cloud Imperium has just released Alpha 3.14.0
Incredibly the game is still in Alpha.

Here's the changelog:


Upon launching the game, the player may receive a 16008 error (Most likely requires a character reset and logging out of the launcher)
After logging out in a ship bed or crashing, logging in can result in Error 20018 or a long loading screen where ship/player spawns at Stanton star (Most likely requires a character reset and logging out of the launcher)
After a server connection timeout (Error 30K), a "Bad Token" error may be presented, preventing loading back into the Persistent Universe (requires game restart to workaround issue)
Star Citizen may crash immediately after pressing "Launch Game" in the Launcher (Recent potential app conflicts: Acronis Active Protection, Comodo, Sonic Studio Contact RSI Technical Support if the issue persists)
Elevators or environment content will occasionally be missing in the PU
Players are unable to leave a party from the Main Menu (Workaround: Open Star Marine Multiplayer (any mode) > select "Invite" > select "Leave Party" > exit back to main menu)
The chat window is positioned too low to be fully readable whilst in a vehicle on Ultrawide monitors
Using a medipen may occasionally have no effect
Swapping FPS weapons drops or removes the original weapon
Mineable commodities data in Scan Mode displays incorrect Percentage Values
The player may become unable to open Hammerhead turret doors, leaving them trapped inside
Constellation Andromeda co pilot unable to target while in missile operator mode
Elevators at Grim Hex fails to complete animations and elevator can lose functionality
Search missions such as shipment lost and lost cargo do not update once the player has collected the cargo box
Unable to complete box delivery missions in Area18, as kiosk rejects boxes
Distortion weapons can lead to the friendly fire threshold being met in only a few shots
Demon Fang Combat Knife asset is missing from the game
When entering the pilot's seat of the 100i, the animation may not complete, leaving the player facing away from the windscreen
Occasionally, the Quantum Drive may start spooling with no known cause
Sometimes, after spooling and calibrating the Quantum Drive and attempting to initiate the jump, nothing happens (Workaround: Move ship reticle away, then move back to recalibrate)
New Planet: Crusader
New City: Orison Landing Zone









						Spectrum - v5.17.2
					

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including         chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...




					robertsspaceindustries.com


----------



## AsRock (Aug 8, 2021)

ShurikN said:


> At least that game came out. This one, the way it's being (milked), will most likely never see full release, and definitely not with everything that was promised...


----------



## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2021)

64K said:


> I know this thread is old but I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread for this. Cloud Imperium has just released Alpha 3.14.0
> Incredibly the game is still in Alpha.
> 
> Here's the changelog:
> ...



BWHAHAHAHAA

That's a CHANGELOG?

I thought it was a known issues list. Holy shit. 'You may encounter bugs' No wait. 'You shall reboot, over and over'

Yeah, reading that list, I think I've now officially given up on the game and the team(s).


----------



## Dinnercore (Aug 8, 2021)

64K said:


> I know this thread is old but I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread for this. Cloud Imperium has just released Alpha 3.14.0
> Incredibly the game is still in Alpha.
> 
> Here's the changelog:
> ...


You only posted the known issues list. Why are you so salty?
Full features: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//18266-Star-Citizen-Alpha-3140

Its a huge overhaul of several systems at once and the new landing zone is a tech demo for the final cloud implementation, being floating in a gas giant and all. It looks stunning and I really like the pace this project picked up during the past 2 years.

Oh and: 

Major Bug Fixes​
Player friends list in game should no longer be capped at a maximum of 50 players
The Loading screens should no longer be enlarged and zoomed in on aspect ratios higher than 16:9 (i.e. 21:9 and 32:9)
Fixed an issue that could cause a Player’s cursor to get stuck on the game screen
Player emotes should now correctly play through slash commands and the inner thought wheel
Fixed an issue causing purchased carryable items to disappear very quickly after they are dropped or placed on the ground
Quantum Traveling to a party member close to a planet surface should no longer sometimes cause the player to fly into the planet
Miles Eckhart should now function correctly and update the mission
Ramming another player while in the borders of your own pad should no longer impound your ship
Ships should no longer fail to restock ammo and missiles/torpedoes when using restocking services
Player’s oxygen levels should no longer start to deplete after using QT in a ship
Fixed an issue causing players to damage their ships If the player exits their seat and re-enters their seat during quantum travel and then later exits the ship
Fixed an issue causing players to not spawn back inside their ship if their client crashed within an armistice zone.
Fixed the multi-tool dispensed from the Commissary units so that it will show the Orebit attachment in the PMA after they are stowed
Workaround fix for the SCU amount displayed for the 890’s cargo capacity so it should no longer be incorrectly at 32
Fixed an issue causing the ECN alert mission countdown timer to not display
Weapons placed in ship weapon lockers should now persist in all ships correctly when it has been stored and retrieved
Large ships attempting to autoland in Rest Stop/Orbital Station hangars should no longer become stuck
Mission givers AI will no longer break if an NPC sits in their designated seat before they do
There should no longer be very obstructive reflections on the 85X Canopy
When you throw a grenade it should no longer have a chance to reappear in your hand, or throw with a desync and with no VFX on the explosion
Vehicles with weapon gimbals should now correctly default to fixed mode when the setting is turned on
Fixed an issue where players could not fire an FPS weapon directly after reloading or switching weapons until the second ( LMB ) press
Players should no longer remain in ADS when reloading an FPS weapon and have let go of ADS key
NPCs should no longer be able to push a player away from kiosks / ASOP terminals while using them
The Hot tub in the Constellation Phoenix should no longer be missing some geometry
The 2951 Auspicious Red Paint should no longer be displayed as PLACEHOLDER in the VMA and should now correctly change the appearance of the ship when applied to it
Friendly AI ships during missions should now quantum away correctly after all hostile AI ships in the area have been destroyed and the user completed the mission
Fixed an issue causing many inner thought prompts to be missing or broken from ship beds and non-pilot seats which may prevent standing up or logging out functions
Tevarin War Dress White Uniform Jacket texture should no longer appear zoomed in
Bartenders should no longer be missing from Rest Stop bars
Fixed an issue causing players to be unable to claim their ships using the ASOP terminal’s claim button
When performing an Unlawful delivery mission, pilot’s drug box should now get despawned correctly after a Security AI ship finishes scanning their vehicle
Armor shop mannequins should no longer be T-posed in Garrity Defense and other armor stores
Underground Facility turrets should no longer be missing
Cruise Control speed should no longer ignore the limiter when player is not in the pilot seat
Player’s head should now correctly remain looking at ceiling upon respawning in a bed
Wiping the helmet visor should now correctly clear Icing VFX impairing player vision
Fixed a noticeable performance drop of up to 10 FPS when navigating around the lower rear section of the Prowler when on a planetary surface
The power triangle should now function and be interacted with within the MFD inside ships
SparkJet Pro power plants should now show the correct size and grade
Turning ship into no fly zones at Area18 should no longer result in auto pilot pulling player to the ground
Ships should no longer be able to continue to throttle when their hydrogen fuel has been depleted completely
Fixed an issue that sometimes caused ship parts to duplicate when blown off of the ship
CryAstro services should now function correctly at the New Babbage Commons Garage
Fixed an issue causing players to not be able to stand up from New Babbage tram seats
Fixed an issue causing players to desync inside the Constellation Taurus and the Constellation Aquila
Technical​
Fixed 8 Client crashes
Fixed 5 Server crashes
Fixed a Server Deadlock
Made Multiple Backend Service stability fixes and optimizations


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2021)

Dinnercore said:


> You only posted the known issues list. Why are you so salty?
> Full features: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link//18266-Star-Citizen-Alpha-3140
> 
> Its a huge overhaul of several systems at once and the new landing zone is a tech demo for the final cloud implementation, being floating in a gas giant and all. It looks stunning and I really like the pace this project picked up during the past 2 years.
> ...



Well, the salt is well deserved, picking up pace... I'm not seeing it. The best projection right now is that you have about 5-6 player hubs and some space to instance towards for missions. Yay. So much for a grand space sim. And that's 2023 by then, if we're being optimistic. Very. Optimistic.

What struck me is the sort of bugs they feel are okay to release with. CTDs, just straight up assets not loading or working, those are core issues that are considered blockers (after all, the game's actual features can't be tested proper if you're not all getting the same simulation). You don't release with blocking issues and if you do, its because its the best you've got. In H2 2021.



64K said:


> My bad it's a list of known issues. The original site I read it on called it wrongly a changelog.


Yeah I checked the Spectrum link and noticed that too.  Still, good laugh.


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## 64K (Aug 8, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> BWHAHAHAHAA
> 
> That's a CHANGELOG?
> 
> ...



My bad it's a list of known issues. The original site I read it on called it wrongly a changelog.


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## Dinnercore (Aug 8, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Well, the salt is well deserved, picking up pace... I'm not seeing it. The best projection right now is that you have about 5-6 player hubs and some space to instance towards for missions. Yay. So much for a grand space sim. And that's 2023 by then, if we're being optimistic. Very. Optimistic.
> 
> What struck me is the sort of bugs they feel are okay to release with. CTDs, just straight up assets not loading or working, those are core issues that are considered blockers (after all, the game's actual features can't be tested proper if you're not all getting the same simulation). You don't release with blocking issues and if you do, its because its the best you've got. In H2 2021.
> 
> ...



Fair points, I just don't feel that way. Good thing we can have different views. I hope you did not support Star Citizen then, sounds like you would be very disappointed.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 8, 2021)

Dinnercore said:


> Fair points, I just don't feel that way. Good thing we can have different views. I hope you did not support Star Citizen then, sounds like you would be very disappointed.



Oh I did... but with just a starter package, I'm just lurking and whenever it does get good, winner  I mean... IF they pull off what they said they would, this is my new home.


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## bug (Aug 8, 2021)

Any day now...


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## Nordic (Aug 9, 2021)

I have been playing some Star Citizen this last few months. It is very much in a buggy alpha state. Looking at their roadmap, it is going to be years before they get to a beta. That said, the alpha is fun right now.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 9, 2021)

Nordic said:


> I have been playing some Star Citizen this last few months. It is very much in a buggy alpha state. Looking at their roadmap, it is going to be years before they get to a beta. That said, the alpha is fun right now.



I played it like 3 or 4 years ago and it was horrible alpha state. I remember when I backed it in 2012 or 2013 I think it was... so glad I only gave them $25 for the lowest tier... promised Nov 2014 delivery... Kickstarter should have automatic refunds for those that don't deliver on time if they want it.


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## Flogger23m (Aug 10, 2021)

I doubt the 2022 beta target will be met. Especially with COVID related delays. Probably 2024-2025 for a beta. But it is getting to the point where so many people are likely coming and going, so many things are upgraded and fixed, changed, and pulled out that it will never be done.


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## Space Lynx (Aug 10, 2021)

Flogger23m said:


> I doubt the 2022 beta target will be met. Especially with COVID related delays. Probably 2024-2025 for a beta. But it is getting to the point where so many people are likely coming and going, so many things are upgraded and fixed, changed, and pulled out that it will never be done.



yeah it's Kickstarter's loss more than it is mine. I decided to stop backing stuff a long long long time ago because of this game.


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## Vayra86 (Aug 10, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> yeah it's Kickstarter's loss more than it is mine. I decided to stop backing stuff a long long long time ago because of this game.



Yeah this is the ultimate example of mindless waste of resources to produce very little, if anything. And time, holy shit.

There is no sane company in the world taking this time to market with a project of such uncertainty, its just not happening, well maybe bar Sweeney's EGS. Companies that did.... well, hi Duke Nukem Forever and many others that ultimately saw the fridge. Hell even Nuclear Fusion has a higher chance of success and better time to market, and the prototypes actually are functional.

By the by... I just lolled so hard, look! You can also waste money in the exact same way here:
The homepage is this - note the console versions they mention. Then you enter the site and... well, scroll down. LMFAO


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