# Sony to get nailed for removing OtherOS feature from PS3?



## qubit (Feb 22, 2011)

> japanese conglomerate  sony is facing accusations of breaching the us computer fraud and abuse act for removing the otheros feature from playstation 3s it had sold that saw linux able to run on the console.
> 
> The japanese technology and media giant has been fighting a class action lawsuit filed by 20 plaintiffs while simultaneously going after alleged ps3 hackers. While sony has so far succeeded in getting a judge to accept that it can sue one george holz for computer fraud and abuse, because he allegedly distributed advice on how to hack the ps3, the japanese mega-corporation itself has been unsuccessful in getting all of the plaintiffs' allegations against it dismissed in the same jurisdiction.
> 
> ...



I sure hope they get nailed for this dirty trick.

The Inquirer


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## m4gicfour (Feb 22, 2011)

Man I hope they get nailed for it. 

"Oh? One man published a way to get an insignificant elevated privilege via a current feature? This elevated privilege has no impact on anything at all, whatsoever? Well let's not patch it, or release a hardware revision making it impossible, let's remove a feature that hundreds or thousands are using completely within their rights."

I don't care if the percentage of users of OtherOs was 100% or 0.01% of all ps3 owners. Dick move Sony. Dick move.

PSFreedom uses a usb trick to boot into service mode from USB? what next, patch out support for anything but charging controllers from USB?


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 22, 2011)

Here's the tl;dr from Groklaw.

Sony is being charged with violating § 1030(a)(5)(A)(i):


> _(i) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;_


Pursuant to subsection (B) that damage must also result in:


> _(i) loss to 1 or more persons during any 1-year period (and, for purposes of an investigation, prosecution, or other proceeding brought by the United States only, loss resulting from a related course of conduct affecting 1 or more other protected computers) aggregating at least $5,000 in value;_



The court's ruling states:


> _Plaintiffs contend that Sony violated the CFAA by “knowingly caus[ing] the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally caus[ing] damage without authorization, to a protected computer.” 18 U.S.C. § 1030(a)(5)(A)(i). Sony argues that it did not act “without authorization” either because the terms of the software license permitted it to take the actions it did, or because plaintiffs’ “voluntarily” downloaded Update 3.21, knowing the effect it would have. At this juncture, Sony has not conclusively established that disabling a PS3 capability of the nature of the Other OS feature is within the scope of the license agreement provisions on which it relies, nor has it shown that those plaintiffs who downloaded the Update thereby necessarily “authorized” the removal of the feature within the meaning of the statute. Accordingly, this prong of the motion will be denied, without prejudice to Sony’s ability to challenge any CFAA claim in an amended complaint, based on the same or expanded arguments._



Sony then made a motion to strike because they did not believe plaintiff defined an appropriate class (AKA the group of people negatively effected by 3.21 firmware).  The motion will not be granted.

I did a quick google search and the statue of limitations is either 2 or 5 years for the section of the CFAA in question.


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## ShiBDiB (Feb 22, 2011)

i sat there for five minutes figuring out what otheros was... other-os.. they should get smacked for making up words


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## DaveK (Feb 22, 2011)

They deserve it, I'd be pissed if I bought something and one of it's features was removed. It's like if I updated my iPod and they removed the ability to update apps over the air or something.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 22, 2011)

http://geohot.com/


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## twilyth (Feb 23, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Here's the tl;dr from Groklaw.
> 
> Sony is being charged with violating § 1030(a)(5)(A)(i):
> 
> ...


Even if it turns out that removing a feature from PS3 WAS in fact covered by the license agreement, I think there are still limits on what sorts of provisions can be enforced.

IIRC, you can put pretty much whatever you want in a contract's "boilerplate" language (what most would call the fine print).  However what provisions are enforceable is another matter - especially when you have a so-called agreement that is for all intents and purposes one-sided.  It's one thing to enforce a provision in a negotiated contract and quite another to enforce one in a consumer contract that is really a take it or leave offer.  I know that in NJ this makes a difference (on due process grounds IIRC) but not so sure about the feds.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 23, 2011)

Did they fire their public relations team? They just keep fucking up left and right. I mean the idiocy alone of them going after everyone who even saw a post about the keys... it's just insanity.


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## Undead46 (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't understand why Sony can't remove functions/features they provided that weren't apart of the feature list as advertised.

And I bet the only reason they're facing these allegations was because they targeted a single "hacker" trying to prove a point...
They purchased your product, why the hell do you care what they do to gain "advantages"?


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## Phxprovost (Feb 23, 2011)

I always found the ps3 interesting as its the only consumer product i have ever seen steadily lose features through revisions and updates.  Its also amusing to note that legions of fans defend sonys actions every step of the way as their console regresses to an empty shell of what it used to be.


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## qubit (Feb 23, 2011)

Phxprovost said:


> I always found the ps3 interesting as its the only consumer product i have ever seen steadily lose features through revisions and updates.  Its also amusing to note that legions of fans defend sonys actions every step of the way as their console regresses to an empty shell of what it used to be.



Great post, love it.  I especially like the bit about the fans. Sounds just like Apple fans and their reality distortion field, doesn't it?


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## remixedcat (Feb 23, 2011)

I was actually considering a PS3..... This makes me not sho shure....


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## qubit (Feb 23, 2011)

*Judge guts suit against Sony for killing Linux in PS3*

This is bad news for the little guy, once again. Expect to see more underhand dirty tricks now from tech companies. 



> *Judge guts suit against Sony for killing Linux in PS3
> *
> A federal judge has dismissed all but one of the claims leveled against Sony for dropping Linux support from its PlayStation 3 game console, but gave the plaintiffs permission to refile an amended complaint that fixes the deficiencies.
> 
> ...



Read the rest at The Register


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## alexsubri (Feb 24, 2011)

some dude got $100 out of it though


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## hellrazor (Feb 25, 2011)

Yay, that'll pay for 1/3 of his console.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 25, 2011)

Phxprovost said:


> I always found the ps3 interesting as its the only consumer product i have ever seen steadily lose features through revisions and updates.  Its also amusing to note that legions of fans defend sonys actions every step of the way as their console regresses to an empty shell of what it used to be.



i admit im a bit of a ps3 fanboy but i will be the first to say that removing OtherOS was pathetic and i will not buy another sony product. that being said, it is an incredible blu-ray player, native trueHD and DTS-MAHD, so you don't need a $1000 receiver to get the best sound so long as you are using HDMI. also, the addition of netflix is a huge positive. the streaming hd 5.1 shows/movies are incredible. so i dont have a list in front of me but i can say for sure sony has added more features to the ps3 than they have removed. after all, the only functionality they removed is OtherOS.


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## qubit (Feb 25, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> i admit im a bit of a ps3 fanboy but i will be the first to say that removing OtherOS was pathetic and i will not buy another sony product.



There's that old saying that it takes a long time to build up a reputation, but only an instant to destroy it. Your boycott of Sony is a fine illustration of the balls-up they made. And they deserve it.

To be honest, I've found it very easy to boycott them, because I've never found their products all that compelling anyway, especially compared to Panasonic.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 25, 2011)

qubit said:


> There's that old saying that it takes a long time to build up a reputation, but only an instant to destroy it. Your boycott of Sony is a fine illustration of the balls-up they made. And they deserve it.
> 
> To be honest, I've found it very easy to boycott them, because I've never found their products all that compelling anyway, especially compared to Panasonic.



yea, i am a loyal customer and a bit of a fan of their corporate strategy, but taking away otherOS was pathetic. even if i understand why they did it and i agree that legally and ethically they are correct in doing so i will still not buy their branded products again.


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## CrackerJack (Feb 25, 2011)

So does this mean you can't fold on the PS3 anymore?


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 25, 2011)

they wouldnt be in the sh~t storm their now in with hackers if they had of left it in,considering what a samll minority used it,was it really worth the effort
and it was fully not right imagine the uproar if microsoft or apple decided the "W" key was superflouse to common use lol yet it is the same

ps yes is still fold with my ps3


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 25, 2011)

CrackerJack said:


> So does this mean you can't fold on the PS3 anymore?



as far as i know i can still fold although i have not in a long time since it uses a lot of energy and does not fold all that well.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 25, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> lot of energy and does not fold all that well.



i thought it quite good at 100watts tho ppd isnt gr8 but for the power?, i am fairly new to folding tho so if theirs a reason you think this ,why so?


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## cdawall (Feb 25, 2011)

i never used OtherOS so no big deal for me kinda sucks that they took it off for some people for me its whatever my HTPC is less than 2ft away


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 25, 2011)

This is making people not want to buy anymore sony products? This? Did everyone forget the whole let's install a rootkit on ever customers pc! Then get sued by every state, but it's ok cause we'll just re-purpose the tech into an utterly ineffective DRM that we can charges loads to license. And we won't even bother to standardize it, so the 20 different rootkits heavy gamers end up installing can all fight over control of your dvd drive. Genius I tell you!


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## qubit (Feb 25, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> This is making people not want to buy anymore sony products? This? Did everyone forget the whole let's install a rootkit on ever customers pc! Then get sued by every state, but it's ok cause we'll just re-purpose the tech into an utterly ineffective DRM that we can charges loads to license. And we won't even bother to standardize it, so the 20 different rootkits heavy gamers end up installing can all fight over control of your dvd drive. Genius I tell you!



Oh yeah, that made _me_ boycott them, I promise you! What a nasty, pathetic thing to do.


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## zithe (Feb 25, 2011)

I would be surprised if sony announced another console.


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## CrackerJack (Feb 25, 2011)

well i'm kinda lost, was otheros removed in a firmware update? or just on newer consoles?


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## qubit (Feb 25, 2011)

CrackerJack said:


> well i'm kinda lost, was otheros removed in a firmware update? or just on newer consoles?



Firmware update.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 25, 2011)

they have anoounced theyve shelved the ps4 for now and yes other os went with a firmware update


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## CrackerJack (Feb 25, 2011)

qubit said:


> Firmware update.



o wow, yea that sucks


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 25, 2011)

ShiBDiB said:


> i sat there for five minutes figuring out what otheros was... other-os.. they should get smacked for making up words



You and me both! 

Honestly I understand why Sony did this. I can respect the reasons. I'm also sure they are within the law. However its fucking retarded to think there would be no backlash for something like this. IMO Sony would have been better off just keeping the alternate OS capability. I mean people who install Linux on a console are people you don't wanna fuck with so "removing" this capability was like putting a band-aid on a leaky dam. Its not going to stop anyone. Its just going to piss them off.

Ether that or Sony's security engineer team is using Apples marketing machine because the people who make the decisions at Sony bought into the hype.  You can't stop Linux nerds. They would put that shit on a microwave if they could.



theoneandonlymrk said:


> they have anoounced theyve shelved the ps4 for now and yes other os went with a firmware update



I don't buy the whole shelving the PS3 thing for a minute.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 25, 2011)

Not confirmed but people think Microsoft might have donated to GeoHotz to cover the cost of his much needed lawyers against Sony.

http://psgroove.com/showthread.php?...made-a-major-donation-to-Geohot#ixzz1EkWU8G71


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 25, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Not confirmed but people think Microsoft might have donated to GeoHotz to cover the cost of his much needed lawers against Sony.
> 
> http://psgroove.com/showthread.php?...made-a-major-donation-to-Geohot#ixzz1EkWU8G71



Thats dirty!......I love it!


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 25, 2011)

Well that's great. Sony is already negative -500 PR points and now MS is looking to steal a few more to add to their pile.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 26, 2011)

GeoHotz Interview

He really thinks he is going to win.


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## HossHuge (Feb 27, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> GeoHotz Interview
> 
> He really thinks he is going to win.



Watching the video "I see" George Holz, but "I hear" Woody Allen.

Why do I think that girl is hot?


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 27, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> Watching the video "I see" George Holz, but "I hear" Woody Allen.
> 
> Why do I think that girl is hot?



Because she is?


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## Phxprovost (Feb 27, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> the only functionality they removed is OtherOS.



by my count since the release of the ps3 it has lost through revisions and updates:

Other Os
PS2 emulation, both hardware and software
SACD playback
flash memory card readers
2 usb ports


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 27, 2011)

Phxprovost said:


> by my count since the release of the ps3 it has lost through revisions and updates:
> 
> Other Os
> PS2 emulation, both hardware and software
> ...



those are if you bought a slim. i own the original 80 gig model. the only feature i lost is otherOS.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 27, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> those are if you bought a slim. i own the original 80 gig model. the only feature i lost is otherOS.



I have a 80Gig Phat and lost all the stuff stated by Phxprovost. So its not just the slim.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 27, 2011)

Phxprovost said:


> by my count since the release of the ps3 it has lost through revisions and updates:
> Other Os
> PS2 emulation, both hardware and software
> SACD playback
> ...


sony the company that keeps giving lol,its certainly advanced the console beyond gameing to entertainment,with just a few new exceptions DO WOT WE SAY GODANIT er no

iv a mk 2 faty with nowt but ps3 orig n blu ray thank the gods for pcs, no one takes nowt off ya, that someone just as smart cant pass ya back


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I have a 80Gig Phat and lost all the stuff stated by Phxprovost. So its not just the slim.



you lost 2 USB ports?


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## zithe (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> you lost 2 USB ports?



I thought of that too. 80GB model doesn't have the two ports that the 60gb had, which precedes it. I think that's how it was.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

interesting... but to me, buying a console with 2 less USB ports, you know it comes with only 2. buying a console with a flash reader, you know that it was missing. Sony was just saving a few bucks and giving a price drop to the customers. Hardware PS2 emulation, same thing. Software emulation idk how it went though.

I didn't know about SACDs before today, let alone that they removed it. it depends, again, if it went through firmware or through a new revision. Sucks for people who bought it thinking it had that but in the fine print it was removed though.

But at least, PS2 and SACD are 2 formats that should have died a long time ago... OtherOS on the other hand, is not.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I have a 80Gig Phat and lost all the stuff stated by Phxprovost. So its not just the slim.



huh? did a sony rep come to your house and manually remove the usb ports and memory card reader?  and i can still play SACD as normal and ps2 games.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> huh? did a sony rep come to your house and manually remove the usb ports and memory card reader?  and i can still play SACD as normal and ps2 games.



maybe SACD and ps2 were taken out of the 40GB?


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

Look at the Model Comparison 


Watch what happens to the Features list From 2006 (PS3's First Release) to Present. 

With the exception of the slims current aesthetics, Power saving, and wireless features. The Console has been retrogressing in terms of features.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Look at the Model Comparison
> 
> 
> Watch what happens to the Features list From 2006 (PS3's First Release) to Present.
> ...



yea, but it's not like you don't know you are buying a stripped down model. people can't complain about that.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> yea, but it's not like you don't know you are buying a stripped down model. people can't complain about that.



Perhaps? Some people might think that their PS3 should play PS2 games. I'd like to think most everyone knows what they are getting but I can't say that everyone does cause I don't know everyone.

But the argument here isn't really the USB ports, heck not even the lack of PS2 backwards compatibility, but its the OtherOS Feature (Linux).

This is a situation where people did buy something they didn't know would later become stripped away from them. 

For many people Linux was the primary reason of owning the PS3 or if not primary a good bonus to owning the PS3 (even advertised by SONY). Feels great to buy something only to have the thing you bought it for forcefully taken away from you. Your forced to now either just use your PS3 as a Ps3 or to just use it for its Linux PowerPC and buy another PS3 to play your PS3 games you own online.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> yea, but it's not like you don't know you are buying a stripped down model. people can't complain about that.



That argument would be fine if the old models were still produced, but they aren't.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Perhaps? Some people might think that their PS3 should play PS2 games. I'd like to think most everyone knows what they are getting but I can't say that everyone does cause I don't know everyone.
> 
> But the argument here isn't really the USB ports, heck not even the lack of PS2 backwards compatibility, but its the OtherOS Feature (Linux).
> 
> ...



which is why i mentioned what i did. the only thing actually "taken away" from a ps3 owner is otherOS. everything else has been sold as advertised.



LAN_deRf_HA said:


> That argument would be fine if the old models were still produced, but they aren't.



huh? then you are simply complaining about something you cannot change. waste of time and immature.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> which is why i mentioned what i did. the only thing actually "taken away" from a ps3 owner is otherOS. everything else has been sold as advertised.



Yes but my point sill is that when they created the orginal PS3 product with extra features that we no longer get, get its like losing them. 

So although we bought a product with 2 USB ports, it was originally designed and sold with four. So not getting the ports and backwards compatibility is in fact losing them, especially now that I have to pay Sony extra to get USB expansion ports and possible pay them extra to receive PS2 backwards compatibility (if the ever decide to implement it) which originally was standard.


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Yes but my point sill is that when they created the orginal PS3 product with extra features that we no longer get, get its like losing them.
> 
> So although we bought a product with 2 USB ports, it was originally designed and sold with four. So not getting the ports and backwards compatibility is in fact losing them, especially now that I have to pay Sony extra to get USB expansion ports and possible pay them extra to receive PS2 backwards compatibility (if the ever decide to implement it) which originally was standard.



well to me you sound like you are whining. you did not have to buy this stripped down version of the playstation. sounds to me those people should be mad at themselves rather than sony.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> well to me you sound like you are whining. you did not have to buy this stripped down version of the playstation. sounds to me those people should be mad at themselves rather than sony.



I'm not whining, I find that insulting. Is this what you resort to? 

I did in fact buy the stripped down version, cause thats all that is on the market today. I have no choice, no say, only 2 USB ports and no backwards compatibility.

And no, we have no one to blame but Sony for designing, redesigning, adding and taking away features at their will and their discretion.

And if you plan to tell me to go look on ebay if I want 4 USB ports so baddly then you sir fail to see my point and I will gladly stop here. (Just in case...)


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## Jstn7477 (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'm not whining, I find that insulting. Is this what you resort to?
> 
> I did in fact buy the stripped down version, cause thats all that is on the market today. I have no choice, no say, only 2 USB ports and no backwards compatibility.
> 
> And no, we have no one to blame but Sony for designing, redesigning, adding and taking away features at their will and their discretion.



They did it with the PlayStation 2 in 2005. When SCPH-70000 came out, no more hard drive (which means no PS2 linux and a few games were rendered unusable), Firewire console linking and old-model multitap support. Sony's been changing its features on its consoles practically forever.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

Jstn7477 said:


> They did it with the PlayStation 2 in 2005. When SCPH-70000 came out, no more hard drive (which means no PS2 linux and a few games were rendered unusable), Firewire console linking and old-model multitap support. Sony's been changing its features on its consoles practically forever.



And I'ts safe to say they will continue to do so. To what extent would be the question? 

Unless your deeply impacted with the loss of a certain feature nothings going to be said or done. Linux on the PS3 was more popular and probably higher in demand on the PS3 then it is/was for the PS2 causing it to be a bigger issue for Sony then it was taking it out on the PS2. 

It was after all, the trigger than led to the current hacking of the PS3 we see today.


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## Jack Doph (Feb 28, 2011)

I may, perhaps, be a little out of place here, but I do agree with AphexDreamer.
If you have a choice in the matter, then there's no argument.
But when a company offers you less for the same money, one starts to wonder about motives.

TBH, my own experiences with S**y aren't very good either, and that company has cost me a great deal of money on written promises they never intended to keep (back in the day when I was still a PC reseller).

I understand there's no-one forcing anyone to buy the current crop of PS3s, but you have no choice in what version you do purchase. It's called "forced consumer-purchase training".

Less features for the same money is just bad PR and, unfortunately, typical of S**y ever since the old "mr. S**y" (my apologies for forgetting his name) retired from the company.

It's true, again, no-one need buy the current version of the PS3, but when the option of certain games only comes out on the one platform, you are forced to purchase said platform with reduced features, or go without the intended pleasure/pass-time it's supposed to provide.

That is a cause for scrutiny in itself...


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'm not whining, I find that insulting. Is this what you resort to?
> 
> I did in fact buy the stripped down version, cause thats all that is on the market today. I have no choice, no say, only 2 USB ports and no backwards compatibility.
> 
> ...



I don't think he meant it as an insult. He meant that you are complaining uselessly with no real goal. On top of that, the features that you complain are lost weren't really lost more than became unavailable. You didn't lose it, you just don't have the choice to buy that feature anymore unless you go used.

The OtherOS on the other hand is a completely different matter and is "worth" complaining about

The 2 USB ports are enough for most people and saves a bit of $$ and the PS2 emulation is a business decision. both valid reasons, true or not.


And it isn't less features for the same $$. The price went down for practically every revision. the "forced consumer" thing you talk about is true for every console. An exclusive title is the same thing.


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## Jack Doph (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> I don't think he meant it as an insult. He meant that you are complaining uselessly with no real goal. On top of that, the features that you complain are lost weren't really lost more than became unavailable. You didn't lose it, you just don't have the choice to buy that feature anymore unless you go used.
> 
> The OtherOS on the other hand is a completely different matter and is "worth" complaining about
> 
> ...



I agree with a lot of what you say here, for sure.
But in my neck of the woods, the price change was negligible and mostly inherent due to the exchange rate, rather than actual console price reductions :/


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> I don't think he meant it as an insult. He meant that you are complaining uselessly with no real goal. On top of that, the features that you complain are lost weren't really lost more than became unavailable. You didn't lose it, you just don't have the choice to buy that feature anymore unless you go used.
> 
> The OtherOS on the other hand is a completely different matter and is "worth" complaining about
> 
> The 2 USB ports are enough for most people and saves a bit of $$ and the PS2 emulation is a business decision. both valid reasons, true or not.



Unavailable = lost to me. It doesn't for you?

My goal here isn't to complain about the loss of the USB ports or Backwards compatibility. It is merely to state that they are in fact losses no matter how you see it and to emphasize the retrogression of the Console from its former self. Now I'm sure Sony had valid excuses to remove certain features but the doesn't change the fact they removed them. Linux on the other hand was a completely unnecessary removal.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

Jack Doph said:


> I agree with a lot of what you say here, for sure.
> But in my neck of the woods, the price change was negligible and mostly inherent due to the exchange rate, rather than actual console price reductions :/



50 or 100$ is alot of money! and I will point out PS3 still has the most features out of all the consoles

EDIT: ^ lost is something you had that you don't have anymore. sure you had the CHOICE of buying something or another, but you didn't HAVE that thing and lost it. You only lost a choice, NOT a feature


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## Jack Doph (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> 50 or 100$ is alot of money! and I will point out PS3 still has the most features out of all the consoles



Quite true, if that were the case.
Where I am, the PS3 was $599, with 4 games and 1 controller shortly after release.
Now it costs $599, with 4 games, 1 controller and a 'free' HDMI cable.
Hardly a price reduction :/
Yes, I'm aware the HDD changed in size, but a 320GB now, costs less than the 80GB cost back then..


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> 50 or 100$ is alot of money! and I will point out PS3 still has the most features out of all the consoles
> 
> EDIT: ^ lost is something you had that you don't have anymore. sure you had the CHOICE of buying something or another, but you didn't HAVE that thing and lost it. You only lost a choice, NOT a feature



A. We have no choice.

B. These are features, removed features. 

C. Lost because if you lose something it is unavailable to you. 

Now maybe not necessarily lost to me, but most defiantly lost to the Ps3. However, it could be said that if it is taken from the PS3 and I own a PS3 then it was in fact taken from me not directly but indirectly through time via Sony's decisions.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry, I meant you lost the CHOICE of having the feature and not the feature itself. It wasn't taken from YOUR PS3, therefore you did not lose it.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> Sorry, I meant you lost the CHOICE of having the feature and not the feature itself. It wasn't taken from YOUR PS3, therefore you did not lose it.



But it was taken from the PS3 in general, correct? And I own a PS3 therefore I lost it, cause I could have had it but don't. And it was never a choice, it was only available one point in time and then not available later. At no point in time was I offered the Choice to get a PS3 with Features A or a PS3 with Features B. They either had the ps3 with Feature A or had the PS3 with Features B. 

Am I not right with that reasoning?


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## Jack Doph (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> But it was taken from the PS3 in general, correct? And I own a PS3 therefore I lost it, cause I could have had it but don't. And it was never a choice, it was only available one point in time and then not available later.
> 
> Am I not right with that reasoning?



I understand what you're saying here, but the issue lies with what's available if you were to purchase one right now, and that purchase doesn't included the older versions' features..
Compared to the original version(s), yes you lose out.
If you buy one now, those features were never there, thus no loss in features..


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> But it was taken from the PS3 in general, correct? And I own a PS3 therefore I lost it, cause I could have had it but don't. And it was never a choice, it was only available one point in time and then not available later. At no point in time was I offered the Choice to get a PS3 with Features A or a PS3 with Features B. They either had the ps3 with Feature A or had the PS3 with Features B.
> 
> Am I not right with that reasoning?



You lost the* choice* to have features A, you did not lose Feature A. Get what I'm saying ?  Our argument is really pointless though lol


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

Jack Doph said:


> I understand what you're saying here, but the issue lies with what's available if you were to purchase one right now, and that purchase doesn't included the older versions' features..
> Compared to the original version(s), yes you lose out.
> If you buy one now, those features were never there, thus no loss in features..



But they were there. The PS3 did have those features thats why if I buy one now they aren't there cause they are gone. AKA lost.




n-ster said:


> You lost the* choice* to have features A, you did not lose Feature A. Get what I'm saying ?  Our argument is really pointless though lol



I agree lol. Entirely pointless lol

But I lost the choice and the features. Cause I don't have either


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'm not whining, I find that insulting. Is this what you resort to?



im just calling it as i see it.




> I did in fact buy the stripped down version, cause thats all that is on the market today. I have no choice, no say, only 2 USB ports and no backwards compatibility.



so? you are acting like a child stamping his foot because he can't get his way. you bought the stripped down version. you chose to pay for something you knew had less features than the older version. you made that decision. now take responsibility for it.  



> And no, we have no one to blame but Sony for designing, redesigning, adding and taking away features at their will and their discretion.
> 
> And if you plan to tell me to go look on ebay if I want 4 USB ports so baddly then you sir fail to see my point and I will gladly stop here. (Just in case...)



you don't have a point. you are complaining. typical consumer who thinks he deserves everything he desires. obviously there are factors beyond your own little world that impacted sony's decision to offer a stripped down version of the original ps3. get over it. they didnt come into your house and remove usb slots or the card reader. you bought a product AS ADVERTISED and complain about it like you didn't know what you were buying. unfortunately you sound like the typical dumb consumer who is always out to blame someone else because they purchased something they now regret. very sad.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

I could give a rats ass what Sony does. I regret nothing. I like my PS3 the way it is and I'm glad sony took out linux  so I can now hack my ps3. I am one happy customer. Now that thats out of the way.... 

You still can't neglect the fact that the PS3 had So and So Features and now it doesn't. Meaning its lost those features because it is missing those features because it no longer has those features like it originally once did. And although sony didn't physically take away my USB ports they did take away my OtherOS Feature I had when I first bought my PS3.  

That is all.


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## Wile E (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> those are if you bought a slim. i own the original 80 gig model. the only feature i lost is otherOS.



DTS output for SACD over optical.



LAN_deRf_HA said:


> That argument would be fine if the old models were still produced, but they aren't.





Jack Doph said:


> I may, perhaps, be a little out of place here, but I do agree with AphexDreamer.
> If you have a choice in the matter, then there's no argument.
> But when a company offers you less for the same money, one starts to wonder about motives.
> 
> ...




The stripped down models are also considerably cheaper. As the features were removed, the price went down. Fair trade.

If they aren't cheaper in your area, I somehow doubt it's Sony to blame. It's most likely the places selling them.

If you want the features of the older model, you still have the option of buying used, so yes, you still do have a choice. Sony is not wrong for releasing a stripped down model for a lesser price, they are only wrong for removing a feature from consoles already sold to a consumer that came with it originally.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I could give a rats ass what Sony does. I regret nothing. I like my PS3 the way it is and I'm glad sony took out linux  so I can now hack my ps3. I am one happy customer. Now that thats out of the way....
> 
> You still can't neglect the fact that the PS3 had So and So Features and now it doesn't. Meaning its lost those features because it is missing those features because it no longer has those features like it originally once did. And although sony didn't physically take away my USB ports they did take away my OtherOS Feature I had when I first bought my PS3.
> 
> That is all.



We all agreed on the OtherOS.

The PS3 in general has different features than when it 1st came out, yes. Apart from OtherOS however, a SINGLE PS3 hasn't lost any features. While PS3s did cut a few MINOR features (again I'm excluding OtherOS) from it's newer revisions, they had valid reasons and they were accompanied by a substantial price-cut. They would have kept selling the original PS3 if it were more profitable for them, but it isn't. 

You have to look at it like this:
There once was PS3 1.0 with ps2 hardware emu and SACD playback
then there was PS3 1.1 with ps2 software emu and SACD play and a 100$ less expensive
etc etc

It's like Lian-li's Lancool line-up
There was once the KX2 series (ie:K62), which looked good and had sturdy construction etc etc
then came the KX3 series (ie: K63), which looked horible and had so-so construction
Yes the Lian-li Lancools lost it's looks, but nothing was TAKEN from the K63, but the K62 had better features (ie: looks and quality)


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 28, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> huh? then you are simply complaining about something you cannot change. waste of time and immature.



That is a mind bogglingly moronic statement. A world where people don't complain simply because they can't personally change something is a world of ignorance. And your basic point doesn't even make sense. Who says it can't be changed? A large enough number of complaints would likely lead to a change. If you love your ps3 so much that you have to defend it in an unreasonable manner then fine, but don't go around name calling because of your illogical obsession.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> That is a mind bogglingly moronic statement. A world where people don't complain simply because they can't personally change something is a world of ignorance. And your basic point doesn't even make sense. Who says it can't be changed? A large enough number of complaints would likely lead to a change. If you love your ps3 so much that you have to defend it in an unreasonable manner then fine, but don't go around name calling because of your illogical obsession.



Complaining won't magically make 2 USB ports pop into your PS3 

Also, if Sony would have put the original 60GB PS3 for sale at 699$, would anyone buy it? would they make any profit?


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> We all agreed on the OtherOS.
> 
> The PS3 in general has different features than when it 1st came out, yes. Apart from OtherOS however, a SINGLE PS3 hasn't lost any features. While PS3s did cut a few MINOR features (again I'm excluding OtherOS) from it's newer revisions, they had valid reasons and they were accompanied by a substantial price-cut. They would have kept selling the original PS3 if it were more profitable for them, but it isn't.
> 
> ...



Yeah I understand, I think you mean without instead of with for the PS3 1.1. 

Now I'm not trying to troll and respect and understand the logic behind those stating we did not lose those features (except for Linux of course). So even though I agree that I didn't directly lose those features on my PS3 (cause I got what I paid for) the PS3 as a whole over time did (This is another fact which can not be denied). 

Now with that in mind

I kind of see it like this. 
If a thief (Company) takes money (Features) away from your parents (Older PS3 Models) is it not like they are taking money away from you ( Modern PS3 you Own)? 

Again I don't mean to be annoying so please don't be frustrated with my persistence.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Yeah I understand, I think you mean without instead of with for the PS3 1.1.
> 
> Now I'm not trying to troll and respect and understand the logic behind those stating we did not lose those features (except for Linux of course). So even though I agree that I didn't directly lose those features on my PS3 (cause I got what I paid for) the PS3 as a whole over time did (This is another fact which can not be denied).
> 
> ...



flawed logic... the older ps3 (parents) don't provide for the newer PS3 (kids)

Would you call Lian-Li thiefs because the K63 model is less superior than the K62 model?


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> flawed logic... the older ps3 (parents) don't provide for the newer PS3 (kids)
> 
> Would you call Lian-Li thiefs because the K63 model is less superior than the K62 model?



Well its more like the kids are the ps3, parents are sony and the kids allowance are the PS3 Features.

The parents took away the kids allowance. 
Which is what has happened its just that, that example fails to include us in it.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Well its more like the kids are the ps3, parents are sony and the kids allowance are the PS3 Features.
> 
> The parents took away the kids allowance.
> Which is what has happened its just that, that example fails to include us in it.



still flawed logic....

in the kids example, he actually loses something, while someone with a PS3 will not. The allowance thing works for OtherOS though


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## Easy Rhino (Feb 28, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> And although sony didn't physically take away my USB ports they did take away my OtherOS Feature I had when I first bought my PS3.
> 
> That is all.



i know, which is why i said i was no longer buying sony products. that is the only legit reason to have beef with sony over the ps3 at this time.

i just dont see how any consumer can have a problem with a manufacturer who sells a product as advertised... 



LAN_deRf_HA said:


> That is a mind bogglingly moronic statement. A world where people don't complain simply because they can't personally change something is a world of ignorance. And your basic point doesn't even make sense. Who says it can't be changed? A large enough number of complaints would likely lead to a change. If you love your ps3 so much that you have to defend it in an unreasonable manner then fine, but don't go around name calling because of your illogical obsession.



i said he was complaining about something "he cannot change." i didnt say he is complaining about something he can change. context clues and all...


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 28, 2011)

n-ster said:


> maybe SACD and ps2 were taken out of the 40GB?



yeh you may be right mine was bought 2nd hand and is a 40 with those bits gone

and i would have liked a choice of new ones, not just their latest cheepest with some more bits missing (was my orig point), consoles shouldnt change so much as not everyone is tech savy i bet most dont know whats on theirs or not till they need it.

and for me thats not fair,what a company like sony sells you  as a lifestyle choice(consoloeing is an individual and fashion choice) should essentially stay the same within that generation, im sick of hearing rumours the new slim is faster/better, i didnt buy one when they came out because i got a ps2 for 300 odd uk pounds 1st day, few years later there was a new 1 for 10p that looked like it was worth 10p but played better not something i appreciated or thought fair.


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## n-ster (Feb 28, 2011)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> yeh you may be right mine was bought 2nd hand and is a 40 with those bits gone
> 
> and i would have liked a choice of new ones, not just their latest cheepest with some more bits missing (was my orig point), consoles shouldnt change so much as not everyone is tech savy i bet most dont know whats on theirs or not till they need it.
> 
> and for me thats not fair,what a company like sony sells you  as a lifestyle choice(consoloeing is an individual and fashion choice) should essentially stay the same within that generation, im sick of hearing rumours the new slim is faster/better, i didnt buy one when they came out because i got a ps2 for 300 odd uk pounds 1st day, few years later there was a new 1 for 10p that looked like it was worth 10p but played better not something i appreciated or thought fair.



if they aren't techsavvy, SACD and linux are gibberish for them, they would never use more than 2 USB ports, and some won't even know there was backwards compatibility to begin with!

The Slim = bigger HDD, cooler PS3 (no Yellow light of death), faster load times, smaller size.

Also, PS2s even today aren't 10pounds, they sell alot still


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Mar 1, 2011)

n-ster said:


> The Slim = bigger HDD, cooler PS3 (no Yellow light of death), faster load times, smaller size.
> 
> Also, PS2s even today aren't 10pounds, they sell alot still



exactly what i hate about sony, if i buy 1st day its out at max price i dont want no jonny come lately getting a faster bit of kit for half the price i feel jipped

and i said 10p pence not pound hence and either  way clearly sarcasm, wow way over your head eh 10p


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## AsRock (Mar 1, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'm not whining, I find that insulting. Is this what you resort to?
> 
> I did in fact buy the stripped down version, cause thats all that is on the market today. I have no choice, no say, only 2 USB ports and no backwards compatibility.
> 
> ...



OMG if ya want 4 USB ports get a powered USB unit..

I did not notice SONY ever saying it was a feature to be able to run another OS on there system so they done now wrong.  And if your so upset about buying a PS3 fully knowing that running another OS was most unlikely possible is your own fault.

Would be nice if SONY did support other OS's but it's their option and so is buying one.

To be honest i cannot see why people bitch about it so much there is nothing wrong with what it comes with.

If there is some thing to bitch about the PS3 it's the frigging  PS3 remote when playing Blu Ray \ DVD's.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Mar 1, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> i said he was complaining about something "he cannot change." i didnt say he is complaining about something he can change. context clues and all...



You quoted me and said "you". So I assumed you were responding to my comments.



n-ster said:


> Complaining won't magically make 2 USB ports pop into your PS3
> 
> Also, if Sony would have put the original 60GB PS3 for sale at 699$, would anyone buy it? would they make any profit?



What? Yes? You gonna tell me there's not tooth fairy next? It would have to be a new model, obviously. The second part I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me.


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## qubit (Mar 1, 2011)

*Poetic justice?*



> The long-running patent dispute between LG and Sony over Blu-Ray technology just got serious - a European court has approved a ten day ban on imports of Playstation 3s into Europe.
> 
> A court ruling in the Hague last week means Sony's game console and its Bravia TVs could disappear from the High Street in the next few weeks. European customs are obliged to block any imports of the popular consoles, and Dutch authorities have already seized devices.
> 
> ...



http://www.reghardware.com/2011/03/01/playstation_ban_europe/


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## HookeyStreet (Mar 3, 2011)

Good.  It was a bad move to remove OtherOS.


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## laszlo (Mar 3, 2011)

lol lost features lost usb lost other os lost ....

so what? sony sell a product and if is as advertised nobody can claim as buyer must read what is buying and when bought he agreed with the terms of sony;did sony forced someone to buy a console? no ;so what's the point of this huge frustration?

even if with firmware update they removed a free capability the product is still as advertised if is functioning for the bought tasks


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## n-ster (Mar 3, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> What? Yes? You gonna tell me there's not tooth fairy next? It would have to be a new model, obviously. The second part I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me.



What I'm saying is that they took out the USBs and the other features to save $$. If you wanted those features, they would have to come out with something similar to the 60GB fat PS3, which was priced at 699$ and sony was losing $$ off of it. Even if it is 500$ now or wtv, noone would buy it and sony would lose $$



laszlo said:


> lol lost features lost usb lost other os lost ....
> 
> so what? sony sell a product and if is as advertised nobody can claim as buyer must read what is buying and when bought he agreed with the terms of sony;did sony forced someone to buy a console? no ;so what's the point of this huge frustration?
> 
> even if with firmware update they removed a free capability the product is still as advertised if is functioning for the bought tasks



AFAIK Fat PS3s were sold advertising OtherOS, but people didn't really have a choice and didn't have OtherOS, sold not as advertised


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## HookeyStreet (Mar 3, 2011)

laszlo said:


> lol lost features lost usb lost other os lost ....
> 
> so what? sony sell a product and if is as advertised nobody can claim as buyer must read what is buying and when bought he agreed with the terms of sony;did sony forced someone to buy a console? no ;so what's the point of this huge frustration?
> 
> even if with firmware update they removed a free capability the product is still as advertised if is functioning for the bought tasks



What????


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## brandonwh64 (Mar 3, 2011)

This thread reminds me of this


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## TheMailMan78 (Mar 3, 2011)

The Euros just want free PS3's to play with.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Mar 4, 2011)

n-ster said:


> If you wanted those features, they would have to come out with something similar to the 60GB fat PS3, which was priced at 699$ and sony was losing $$ off of it. Even if it is 500$ now or wtv, noone would buy it and sony would lose $$



i think your missing the point sony were forever making whatever they make cheaper but they dont take the bluetooth off sureshots or the cameras out of walkman phones or the remotes off bravias cos they cant/couldnt without effin uproar yet they do this against supposed pirates but actually there own most loyal customers its about percentages yeh but for them about percentage complaints/disaprovers v money


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## AphexDreamer (Mar 4, 2011)

laszlo said:


> lol lost features lost usb lost other os lost ....
> 
> so what? sony sell a product and if is as advertised nobody can claim as buyer must read what is buying and when bought he agreed with the terms of sony;did sony forced someone to buy a console? no ;so what's the point of this huge frustration?
> 
> even if with firmware update they removed a free capability the product is still as advertised if is functioning for the bought tasks



I bought my PS3 for Linux. It is not functioning. 

I want to make MY ps3 function with Linux, but Sony doesn't like me doing that either.


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## n-ster (Mar 4, 2011)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> i think your missing the point sony were forever making whatever they make cheaper but they dont take the bluetooth off sureshots or the cameras out of walkman phones or the remotes off bravias cos they cant/couldnt without effin uproar yet they do this against supposed pirates but actually there own most loyal customers its about percentages yeh but for them about percentage complaints/disaprovers v money



sorry but I didn't get what you just said there  granted I slept maybe 4 hours the past 8 days but ... ya


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