# Linux and ease of use



## crazy pyro (Jul 30, 2009)

Right then, this is where we're going to discuss LInux being easy to use/ not easy enough as at least two news topics have managed to be driven OT by this.


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## Ammugonevil (Jul 30, 2009)

My person experiance is that Linux usage depends on what you want out in the end...gaming wise not so practice.. lan driver, wine, etc do kinda push my patence boundry... however for surfing, word processing, even some elements of GD it pretty good.


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## mordant80 (Jul 30, 2009)

My opinion is that it's easy to use...  until something doesn't work..  then it takes a bunch of research and head pounding if you're not intimately close with linux.


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## mlee49 (Jul 30, 2009)

One word: Ubuntu.  Its so easy your grandma could do it.  Built in apps, compatibility out the wazoo, and preloaded drivers for just about everything.  I love it!

Edit: Voted


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## Ammugonevil (Jul 30, 2009)

Yeah there is a learning curve, windows and even more with leopard (apple) is based more toward the end user so its more user freindly


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## crazy pyro (Jul 30, 2009)

There's hardly any learning curve to Ubuntu going from Windows, that's from my personal experience and discounting my first encounter (literally HOURS banging my head off the wall trying to figure out an error giving the error "bcm_microcode 43xxx")


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## 3870x2 (Jul 30, 2009)

Just to install drivers for a video card, I had to practically program everything.  Might have just programmed the drivers myself while I was at it.  It was at that point that i stopped caring for linux.  Nothing installs  by a simple double click.


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## Yukikaze (Jul 30, 2009)

Linux is great until something doesn't work. Then you're frakked if you don't know how to solve Linux issues. After using Red Hat and Ubuntu for over three years, I try to keep away from them as far as I can. Linux isn't for the common user, that's for sure.


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## TheLaughingMan (Jul 30, 2009)

I find that regardless of the distro it comes down to the initial setup.  Once all the hardware support quirks are worked out, install the basic needs software (media player, music player, protect codecs to play commercial DVD's and CD's) it is all easy from their.

Linux for me, has always been a slight challenge to get started and a breeze to maintain.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 30, 2009)

So it'd be great as an OEM system you're saying Laughing Man?


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## ASRockIQ (Jul 30, 2009)

the thing is with Linux you hear about using a lot of commands needed to be used regardless of the Linux Based OS such as Ubuntu. there's just so much you can do until Commands will be needed. that is why i stay away from Linux. yes, i could learn but there is just way too many commands out there to be learned.


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## Yukikaze (Jul 30, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> So it'd be great as an OEM system you're saying Laughing Man?



Considering OEM systems most often end up in the hands of people who are less knowledgeable in computers, if it is setup properly, it will work, until something breaks, at which point they might end up banging a head against a wall.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 30, 2009)

You can do ALOT without even opening the terminal, thing is though that it's frequently far quicker to copy and paste something from the software's website into the terminal and install like that.
If something breaks in an OEM system most people continue on with whatever it is messed up or send it back to the manufacturer.


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## Ammugonevil (Jul 30, 2009)

Inside a school common room there are 5 linux systems and 15 windows systems.. and the 5 linux systems are used to do basic stuff serfing etc.. however to get them onto the college network was say the least painful..


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## crazy pyro (Jul 30, 2009)

Did the network require specific software to run or was that just criticism of the networking on Linux? I wouldn't even BEGIN to put my laptop onto the school network with the RM MyConnect4 rubbishy thing they use, it's epic fail enough under Windows.


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## Ammugonevil (Jul 30, 2009)

yeah well that was what factored into it...

side note im in for linux..


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## crazy pyro (Jul 30, 2009)

Not surprised it was fun and games then! If you start off planning to use Linux and get compatible kit you're fine, it's not as easily adaptable as Windows in terms of obscure hardware (although it hibernates when Windows won't, no idea why).


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## unibrow1990 (Jul 30, 2009)

I agree with the people who have pointed out that linux is quite easy until something doesn't work. Last time I installed Kubuntu it took about 4 hours of working to get my sound and wireless working but once everthing was working I didn't have anymore problems doing anything.


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## TheLaughingMan (Jul 30, 2009)

*Yeah*



crazy pyro said:


> So it'd be great as an OEM system you're saying Laughing Man?



Yeah, basically.  I have one friend....he is well....stupid.  He has been using a laptop of mine with Ubuntu 9.04 for 3 months.  The only issue he ran into was his $90 "professional" USB mic didn't work.


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## Deleted member 3 (Jul 30, 2009)

mlee49 said:


> One word: Ubuntu.  Its so easy your grandma could do it.  Built in apps, compatibility out the wazoo, and preloaded drivers for just about everything.  I love it!
> 
> Edit: Voted



Interesting, earlier this week I ran into a compatibility issue with a 3com 905 NIC and Linux (not Ubuntu) , care to explain how easy it would be to get it to work on Ubuntu? (not 905b, c or anything else) I found the solution, which is a great example of how user unfriendly Linux is, it made me skip it and find me different NIC. Still, it makes me wonder what kind of solutions Ubuntu has for similar crap.
If you want more details, the 905 was detected as 95x series, which it isn't.

Windows is rather clear on the issue, get a driver and point the hardware wizard to it.


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## xfire (Jul 31, 2009)

To Dan
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=715896


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## Deleted member 3 (Jul 31, 2009)

Completely different issue and different card. Yet it still seems a fine example of how Linux is not exactly user friendly. Unless you consider that solution something you'd come up with as a new/intermediate Linux user.


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## Error 404 (Jul 31, 2009)

I've currently got a dual boot setup with Ubuntu 9.04 and Vista.
The first thing I ran into was that it beeped. When I shutdown, it made an ABSOLUTELY AWFUL BEEP! I worked for about half an hour to get rid of it.
Second was MP3 codecs. That took an hour to find where do get them, and how to get them working properly.
Other than that, everything ran smoothly: Opera and Amarok installed fine, still need to uninstall firefox, but I've found that I'm using Vista most of the time anyway :\

IMO, if Linux can have problems solved WITHOUT using terminal, and without the ugly startup screen (lots of code =/= nice startup), and they stopped being so anal about "DURRGH ITS NOT OPEN SOURCE WE WONT INCLUDE IT!" (MP3 and Video card drivers for starters), then they're going to be competitive.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

It's not nescessarily about it being open source, more about legality, if you want to compile a seperate version that meets US/ UK laws with all the drivers and .mp3 playback included as far as they care you can go for it, hell there might be a position on the dev team for you if you talk to someone there.


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## Wile E (Jul 31, 2009)

Linux is easy as long as you don't want to use something that the devs of your distro decide not to include. Once you have to add repos, or download apps from the wild, it's beyond the scope of most users.

If and when the Linux devs get their heads out of their asses, and agree on a unified installer, and make it double-click easy, Linux will gain market share by leaps and bounds, I'm willing to wager. Until then, it's reserved to those that are 100% happy with what their distro has to offer out of the box, or people willing to go thru the hassles of learning the intricacies of linux.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

Get a distro focused on what you need it for (mythbuntu for media purposes for example, although linux mint works great with media excepting subtitles on my copy of Cowboy Bebop.


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## Wile E (Jul 31, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> Get a distro focused on what you need it for (mythbuntu for media purposes for example, although linux mint works great with media excepting subtitles on my copy of Cowboy Bebop.



No single distro can serve all of my needs out of the box. I have to go to the command line in all of them to get them set up the way I prefer. Not that it bothers me, but it definitely effects people that are new to linux.

And I absolutely hate Ubuntu and Ubuntu based distros. I do like Debian (which is what Ubuntu is based on), but still largely prefer Fedora.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

I can't comment on Fedora/ SUSE as I've not used them (unless the PS3 runs on Fedora which I have a feeling it does). Windows also won't be able to run all the extra stuff you want out of the box. Linux can get more complicated/ more difficult to use very quickly (try extracting audio from a youtube video, that was fun last night trying to get the full length).


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## Wile E (Jul 31, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> I can't comment on Fedora/ SUSE as I've not used them (unless the PS3 runs on Fedora which I have a feeling it does). Windows also won't be able to run all the extra stuff you want out of the box. Linux can get more complicated/ more difficult to use very quickly (try extracting audio from a youtube video, that was fun last night trying to get the full length).



No, Windows doesn't, but then all I have to do is download and double-click installers to get what I want. Not need to go to the command line, or research and add additional repos, or anything of that nature.


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## Melvis (Jul 31, 2009)

Well I just had an experience with Ubuntu/Linux just the other day with my laptop. This old laptop had Windows XP installed on it and it needed a format real bad. So I thought well i'll re-install XP on it but I had one issue, the laptop I use has no DVD/CD Drive. 

First I tried a external CD drive but with no luck, had some sort of weird error. Next I got an external laptop enclosure and hooked it up to my PC and installed Windows onto it that way. Everytime I tried to do this for some odd reason I got a BSOD while installing XP. :shadedshu I also installed Windows on it using a different laptop, it worked but while it was loading it BSODed  and wouldn't boot into Windows at all.

After trying all this I was starting to get a little mad, then my GF said why dont you try Linux and I thought o ok yea thats a good idea, i'll give it a try. So I got the latest Ubuntu from my Brother and installed it on the HDD using my external enclosure on my PC. It installed fine then I booted it up in my laptop and it loaded up with no issues what so ever.  I was so happy and over the moon after trying for days to get XP to work on this laptop again. Even the wireless card worked off the bat 

I will never go back to Windows on this laptop after that experience  

Linux thanks for saving my ass on my old laptop


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## pr0n Inspector (Jul 31, 2009)

If you want to do anything useful you must learn how to use the terminal. it's mandatory. of course if all you ever do is browse the web and type a few docs anything will work for you.

The codecs issue is about patents(in the US and some other countries). It has nothing to do with code and there's no way around it.

Ubuntu does not update software after release unless there're severe issues and as such their repositories are full of outdated software. mplayer for example is f**king ancient and I ended up compiling the svn version myself. Imagine looking for all the required devel packages, how fun is that?
Oh and GNOME sucks donkey balls.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

Nope, it's not mandatory to use the terminal at all, I can get by quite easily once the system's set up without using the terminal as long as I'm not looking on google for solutions to problems (people seem to be overly eager to use the terminal), if it was supplied as an OEM system the average user would NOT have issues if developers etc didn't have an addiction to the terminal.


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## pr0n Inspector (Jul 31, 2009)

Like I said, if all you need is browser, office suite and maybe a music player, anything will do.
People are "overly eager" to use the terminal because it's fast and efficient. it also means one less thing to go wrong(the GUI).


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## Easo (Jul 31, 2009)

Linux (i shall speak about Ubuntu here, but it goes generally to all distributives) is good for browsing, office work and listening/watching things.
IF they EVER want to compete to MS, they have LOT of things to do.

1. NO DAMN TERMINAL, writing text commands was good in DOS times,after 25 years it is not.
2. I want EVERY SINGLE application into .deb, no excuses, no tar.bz2 bullshit, compiling, etc.
Double click or go to hell.
3. Normal uninstaller.
4. Hardware drivers, make the damn exceptions!!! Its the damn drivers, how stupid you (devs) have to be to not understand why they are needed so badly. Princips are one thing, reality with slow working devices other. And ATi/NVIDIA provides them... Always... For free...
5. To compete as mainstream OS, gaming needs to be better, no Wine. BUUUUT, it almost entirely depends from lazy ass game devs.
6. Repositories... lol, why normal user must learn how to add them...
7. Asking for password is crazier than in Vista with UAC (yes yes, there is no pass), to turn it off you have to go into nonfriendly options... Installing every single programm from .deb, drivers, UPDATES... asks for it. lol Reserve it to critical changes, not mainstream things.
8. bla bla bla....


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

It's there to stop eejits breaking the system, much the same as UAC except that it works.


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## Easo (Jul 31, 2009)

Installing Skype can hardly break system... :/
As i said, its for main things, not some core settings changing...


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

Skype took an install of vista with it for me, very strange, hell MS Office 2003 did too.


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## Easo (Jul 31, 2009)

crazy pyro said:


> Skype took an install of vista with it for me, very strange, hell MS Office 2003 did too.



The amazing world of PC still continue to surprise me...


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

Seriously, never let the laptop run out of battery while installing MS Office 2003, Run32.dll got screwed up somehow.


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## Deleted member 3 (Jul 31, 2009)

Easo said:


> 1. NO DAMN TERMINAL, writing text commands was good in DOS times,after 25 years it is not.


Quite ignorant, a CLI is very important, it's very essential for scripting and the likes. For an end user it isn't required, but for system admins and more advanced users it's a must.



Easo said:


> 4. Hardware drivers, make the damn exceptions!!! Its the damn drivers, how stupid you (devs) have to be to not understand why they are needed so badly. Princips are one thing, reality with slow working devices other. And ATi/NVIDIA provides them... Always... For free...


Like you said, they are provided by hardware manufacturers, it is not fault of the Linux community.



Easo said:


> 5. To compete as mainstream OS, gaming needs to be better, no Wine. BUUUUT, it almost entirely depends from lazy ass game devs.


Gaming isn't bad, just as with drivers manufacturers simply don't make most games for Linux.
It's a chicken/egg thing really. Either way it's not a flaw of Linux.



I don't consider Linux exactly user friendly, that's the main downside. The issue with installing/uninstalling is mostly true. (although there are some nice solutions available) Most problems with Linux aren't Linux' fault though.


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## pr0n Inspector (Jul 31, 2009)

The only real problem is how some people keep pushing it like it's some kind of panacea with a sweet flavor and no side-effects.


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## crazy pyro (Jul 31, 2009)

Occasionally you're forced to be a bit more inventive with your methods, generally there's no problem with it though.


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## Dippyskoodlez (Jul 31, 2009)

Easo said:


> Linux (i shall speak about Ubuntu here, but it goes generally to all distributives) is good for browsing, office work and listening/watching things.
> IF they EVER want to compete to MS, they have LOT of things to do.
> 
> 1. NO DAMN TERMINAL, writing text commands was good in DOS times,after 25 years it is not.
> ...



1.) CLI is there for a reason. Power.  It can stay, OS X has one and it is extremely potent: It's just hidden from normal users. Linux is getting closer to this.
2.) Deb is nice, but people cry about it. From an end user standpoint, it's near perfect for what Linux needs. dpkg -i <deb> and you win.

4.) Ati is partially at fault for theirs.. Nvidias is now extremely cake to install. I'm not holding my breath to ever get my laptop GPU, my x1800xl, or my x850xt to ever see 3d support again, however.

7.) This is called "security" and is only prompted when necessary. Linux and OS X do this correct. Windows, not so much.

Getting close, but Linux is not there yet. Fix xorg into a unified release, and ati pulling their head out of their rear would bring things back in line with where they need to be.. drivers are coming along nicely.

Just not.. quite.. there.


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## MilkyWay (Jul 31, 2009)

most thigns are easy to do on linux it has usualy got a built in browser and office or word processing suit built into the distro a lot of apps to configure thigns too but NETWORKING IS A BITCH!

if it dosnt support your lan or wireless card out of the box so to speak it can be hard to set it up, on windows its a lot easier to setup things tbh

on linux tho it is getting better


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## HalfAHertz (Jul 31, 2009)

Installed Kubuntu 9.04 and everything worked right off the bat with this lappy. I deffinately prefer KDE over Gnome. The only issue I have with linux is no Dx support. This means no propper support for Autodesk products and no games of course 
Wine just isn't a viable solution at this point. It's just too buggy and if it does work, it still has too big of a slowdown compared to a program working under windows

I also have puppy linux on a stick. It's a really fast to load, but still lacks some basic drivers


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## mtosev (Jul 31, 2009)

Ubuntu is slowly getting bloated. some are not happy about that.


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## Wile E (Aug 1, 2009)

Ubuntu has been bloated from the beginning.

If I'm going for a Debian based distro, I'm grabbing the real-deal, Debian itself. I hate Ubuntu, and Ubuntu based distros.

But personally, I prefer rpm distros, so I run Fedora.

All of this is well and good, but Windows (and even OS X) are both easier to use.


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## btarunr (Aug 1, 2009)

Linux has come a long way, though desktop (client) Linux is still crawling. This is a nice (long) dev video about why Linux sucks as a client OS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s


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## Dippyskoodlez (Aug 1, 2009)

btarunr said:


> Linux has come a long way, though desktop (client) Linux is still crawling. This is a nice (long) dev video about why Linux sucks as a client OS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s



Perfect.

That guy needs a sticker.

EDIT: Found this a bit ago, thought it was oddly fitting.



> The Linux elder and the convert.
> 
> A play by .net jerkface.
> 
> ...



My audio cuts out all the time in Mint


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