# Crappy power supply is crappy



## Necrofire (Nov 1, 2007)

I need a new one, but I was actually googling an alternative to a whole new and expensive power supply.

I want to run two power supplies at once for one system, and I just had a couple of questions.

1. According to some places, I can just put both PS-ON wires together and two grounds and call it good, would that work with two different power supplies?

2. Would anything detrimental come about from powering a graphics card from one power supply and everything else from the other?

3. Is wiring grounds together (like in #1) a bad idea?

4. Would slightly-different voltages between the two power supplies cause something to go wrong? (i.e. let's say that graphics card is taking in 12.025V and mobo is taking in 11.995, will there be problems?)

Here's rig:

athlon x2 6000+, OC'd to 3.2GHz
2GB ddr-800
3 Harddrives
1 DVD drive
Nvidia 8800GTS Overclocked (slightly)
Biostar Nforce4-Ultra
Hauppage TV tuner

My main power supply is 450Watt, not the advertised 575W, the latter is the max rating, and the first is sustained. It was less than $40, so it's crappy as hell.

The second power supply is a 350Watt Cooler Master, and it's pretty old.

My main power supply puts out 25A on +12Volt, and the second one puts out 16A on the +12Volt rail.


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## AsRock (Nov 1, 2007)

Well some power supplys will not even turn and some really old ones will blow a fuse when the 20 pin is not connected. I'm on about old ones now as i'm not sure about todays but chances are they turn off.

Never tryed by passing it my self.


You be better of getting a $100+ power supply anyways as those cheap ones can mess your rig up.


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## panchoman (Nov 1, 2007)

you can pair em up, you'll need a relay switch and it'll work, and space for the psu's as well. the voltages wont really be a problem.

oh and welcome to the forums


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## DR.Death (Nov 1, 2007)

y not just buy one big psu it would be less hassle and then less can go wrong


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## panchoman (Nov 1, 2007)

DR.Death said:


> y not just buy one big psu it would be less hassle and then less can go wrong



yup, and of course you can get some really nice and efficent psu's now.


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## zekrahminator (Nov 1, 2007)

I'd get a $40 Thermaltake PurePower 430W for mobo/peripherals, and a $60 Thermaltake VGA Power Supply. Your $100 will get you all the power you need for a long time, as well as all the adapters you need to make that happen. 

Or, if you were to reconsider and get a single-PSU solution, I'd get a Mushkin power supply, or if you can spring for it, a Corsair .


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## panchoman (Nov 1, 2007)

i vote corsair..


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## Necrofire (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks for welcoming me. I'm glad to see that I'm actually getting answers. The problem with getting a new power supply is money. I don't exactly have $80 or so laying around. Then what would I do with the power supply I have now? It works, but not well.

The Graphics card power supply isn't worth it, and I couldn't upgrade the graphics card. According to my sources, the 8600GTS can pull ~200W or so on a full load.

On the topic of graphics card power supplies...If I can run a separate dedicated power supply for the graphics card, what would be the problem of making my second power supply into that dedicated supply?

That Corsair has nice specs, but costs more than I'm willing to spend.

The Thermaltake 450W is worse than mine. I was thinking that I need more amps on the +12V rail, since mine puts out 25A total, and the Thermaltake only puts out 18A. I would need two rails putting 18A or so out a piece.

If mixing power stuff is as dangerous as I've been seeing, then would it be better to run harddrives and fans with the second power supply, so that I could maybe take 50W of load off or something?

My biggest problem is heat from the power supply. It gets really hot, leading me to believe that it's being worked too hard, or HIGHLY inefficient. I can wait for a solution if need be, but I want a solution that involves two power supplies at the least, since it is what I have to work with right now.

I understand what volts and amps are, and have a basic understanding of how power supplies work. What I don't know is what happens when you try and put power supplies in parallel, or the detriments of putting grounds together, or the problems that would arise if the power supplies were vastly different in startup time or voltage under load.


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## zekrahminator (Nov 2, 2007)

Then you should definitely take out a loan or something, because you're not going to get stable, reliable results from anything less than something with a little oomph in the 12V+ department.


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## DR.Death (Nov 2, 2007)

ya a new psu would be the best bet for now because with 2 of them u never know  what will happen down the road


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## zekrahminator (Nov 2, 2007)

Here's something that I'd expect to last a while...

FSP 450W PSU (2x18A on the 12V+).


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## DR.Death (Nov 2, 2007)

or look what antec has to offer


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## Necrofire (Nov 2, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> Here's something that I'd expect to last a while...
> 
> FSP 450W PSU (2x18A on the 12V+).



Wow, that's exactly what I've been looking for, but I've never heard of the company. Will this be enough though?

EDIT: Strange, I clicked the right quote button, but it turned out the wrong quote, eh.


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## zekrahminator (Nov 2, 2007)

Necrofire said:


> Wow, that's exactly what I've been looking for, but I've never heard of the company. Will this be enough though?
> 
> EDIT: Strange, I clicked the right quote button, but it turned out the wrong quote, eh.



Oh yeah .


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## panchoman (Nov 2, 2007)

fsp's a great oem, and they sell their own psu's as well, i'd say grab that psu.


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## Necrofire (Nov 2, 2007)

It looks interesting, I think it will suffice. I don't exactly have 2 8800 Ultras I need to power. The efficiency is a little low for what I'm looking for, but 80+ ones are expensive.

Most of my system was built using Newegg, including my current power supply...

But really, I need a definitive, highly technical answer for the dual-power supply thing. Is it viable?

On another subject, though, my second computer was beat down by a short on 12V line repeatedly. Do you guys know the likely culprit that died? The short was the P4 connector on the mother board, I think. Power supply still works, and I *think it's the mobo.


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## patton45 (Nov 2, 2007)

The egg has a pc p&c has a 40$ psu its the best cheap option


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## niko084 (Nov 2, 2007)

You "can" do that... But make sure you wire it right.


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## DrunkenMafia (Nov 2, 2007)

mate you are playing with fire though..  I mean you have some expensive parts in there and when psu's die they can often take out other components with them...

Just fork out the $80 or so bucks and grab a decent one..  You may even be able to buy a second hand decent one on ebay..  A lot of junkies upgrade all the time..

Here is a brand new antec eartthwatts 500w . Removed from a new case for $49...  Thats not bad and will be good enough to power your system..

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antec-EARTHWATT...ryZ42021QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## niko084 (Nov 2, 2007)

DrunkenMafia said:


> mate you are playing with fire though..  I mean you have some expensive parts in there and when psu's die they can often take out other components with them...
> 
> Just fork out the $80 or so bucks and grab a decent one..  You may even be able to buy a second hand decent one on ebay..  A lot of junkies upgrade all the time..
> 
> ...



Just to second this-
Earth Watts 500 is the same as my Smart Power 2 450 in one of my machines..
I have put a 1950pro, and now a heavily clocked 2600xt and e6750 on it, doesn't even get warm


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## Mussels (Nov 2, 2007)

Necrofire said:


> I need a new one, but I was actually googling an alternative to a whole new and expensive power supply.
> 
> I want to run two power supplies at once for one system, and I just had a couple of questions.
> 
> ...



pretty much yes to all your questions.

Most people use two PSU's, and have the second for fans/cooling - you CAN have issues if the voltages go different, for exampel - video cards use power from the mobo and a secondary lead, so you dont really want to mix them up and have two sets of different voltages going in there.

merging grounds would help i think, but i personally wouldnt do it.


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## Necrofire (Nov 2, 2007)

You guys are great, I used to frequent TechPowerup for the reviews and stuff, but never ventured to the forums. This is the first place I've had so many people answering so fast..

Anyway, I have a test rig that I can test my "new" idea on. Until I get some money for a better power supply, I'm going to do the following...

1. Wire both PS-ON wires together, and two grounds together. It seems like this power supply has no problem doing so. (just look at the 4th and 5th images)

2. Instead, I'm just going to take the load off from the harddrives and fans, which would be around 50 Watts or so.

3. Test this on my test rig before hand, I don't care if I kill the rig, since something in it is already dead. (The 12V line shorted somewhere after I put a new heatsink on (sounds weird) and after I reseated the heatsink a couple of times, it would turn on, and nothing else. (too bad I don't have a speaker lying around anywhere))

4. If it works, hook it up to my current rig. I don't use my DVD drive AT ALL anymore, so I was just thinking of taking it out, and mounting the power supply in the 4-bay gap.

btw, Since the fan would be facing outward blowing air out the front, I'm going to invert the fan so it blows in.

5. Take pics if anyone wants to see my rig, either before or after. 1.3MP Phone camera, with plenty of lighting...(It gets the job done, I think)

6.???

7. PROFIT!!!


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## JrRacinFan (Nov 2, 2007)

If you plan on doing this make sure you use a UPS. Also, just one small tip because I HAVE done this before. 

Let's call the power supply that powers the motherboard, the master psu, and the other the slave psu. 

The master psu you will have to make sure it is screwed tightly onto your pc case and make sure their are no obstructions for any wires at all.

The slave psu is usually best mounted on the bottom of a full size ATX case in conjunction with use of an mATX motherboard.

As far as how to wire them together, pins 14 & 15 do the trick.


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## keakar (Nov 2, 2007)

when its all said and done your going to spend damn near the same $ to get 2 psu and the switches you need and wire them up, then you have the timing of both coming on and going off at the same time is also a risk of not being right plus you have to take into account all the wiring involved are always a risk to fail and when that happens bad things can occur. 

one good high quality power supply = no troubles cost $100-$150

two power supplies = lots of things can go wrong and screw up your system plus you spend the same $ (this way would cost about $100-$150) as if you would just buy 1 good quality psu with enough amps to serve your needs.

its always better to use one psu instead of two as long as you can get all the power you require from that one psu.


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## Wile E (Nov 2, 2007)

If you want to run 2 psus, just use this: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5..._Supply_Adapter.html?tl=g11c28s91&id=WhrqKGHG

No cutting and splicing involved. And pretty cheap, too.


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## niko084 (Nov 2, 2007)

Wile E said:


> If you want to run 2 psus, just use this: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/5..._Supply_Adapter.html?tl=g11c28s91&id=WhrqKGHG
> 
> No cutting and splicing involved. And pretty cheap, too.



Aww there it was... I was looking for that...

That a good option too, makes sure things are done right so you don't need to worry, make a mess etc.


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## Necrofire (Nov 2, 2007)

Actually, I wouldn't spend any money, save for the cost in electricity, which I don't pay for anyway.

And as for that Lian-Li dual power supply thing, it's the same thing I plan on doing, but instead of an adapter, there would be stripped wire and lots of hot-glue and heat shrink tubing.


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## niko084 (Nov 2, 2007)

Necrofire said:


> Actually, I wouldn't spend any money, save for the cost in electricity, which I don't pay for anyway.
> 
> And as for that Lian-Li dual power supply thing, it's the same thing I plan on doing, but instead of an adapter, there would be stripped wire and lots of hot-glue and heat shrink tubing.



Use solder and heat shrink...


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## Wile E (Nov 2, 2007)

niko084 said:


> Use solder and heat shrink...



OMG, I just caught that.

@Necro - Do not use hot glue to hold the wires together, PERIOD! I cannot stress that enough.  Use solder, as niko mentioned. If you don't have a soldering iron, borrow one, if you can't borrow one, buy the frickin adapter. The hot glue approach may not cost you anything at first, but it will cost you more in the long run, when you burn your house down.


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## DrunkenMafia (Nov 2, 2007)

^  lol

Please don't glue wire together bro..  If you do can you post some pics of your house on fire so we can tell all our mates..  

you can grab a cheap soldering iron for around $5....


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## Kasparz (Nov 2, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> I'd get a $40 Thermaltake PurePower 430W for mobo/peripherals, and a $60 Thermaltake VGA Power Supply. Your $100 will get you all the power you need for a long time, as well as all the adapters you need to make that happen.
> 
> Or, if you were to reconsider and get a single-PSU solution, I'd get a Mushkin power supply, or if you can spring for it, a Corsair .


Is that comes from the moderator? Oh snap.
Both thermaltake PSU's are crap as it were.
Mushkin too.
Corsair is fine, but heavily overpriced.
This will handle your system with ease.
http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=PS-E5150GH

Using two ATX PSU's can damage hardware or PSU's. Why? Because if you use one PSU for motherboard, all 3.3/5/12 lines will be in use. But if you use PSU just for peripherals, 3.3V line will be unused and crossloads are dangerus for PSU.


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## Ketxxx (Nov 2, 2007)

This sucker should give you all the power you need for some time.


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## Kasparz (Nov 2, 2007)

Ketxxx said:


> This sucker should give you all the power you need for some time.


Guy with 4k posts in tech forum recommends rosewill. Oh my god, oh my.


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## zekrahminator (Nov 2, 2007)

Tone down the insults, Kasparz...I've had the Thermaltake PSU for a little over two years now, and I have yet to hear so much as a squeal come from it.


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## niko084 (Nov 2, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> Tone down the insults, Kasparz...I've had the Thermaltake PSU for a little over two years now, and I have yet to hear so much as a squeal come from it.



Exactly, although it may not be a super quality psu, the fact comes down, you buy one strong enough and take care of it, don't push on it too hard, they will under normal circumstances run for years...

I have an Antec Smart Power 2 450watt that is now 4 years old, had 1950pro's, a 1950xt, 2600xt now...

I also have an old Antec 350 watt *16amps on the 12volt*, running a e6420, 4x512mb ddr2 sticks a 2600xt, 3 hard drives, 2 *yes 2* sound cards, and about 6 fans, that psu is about 6 years old. The poor thing lacks so much power with this setup that the computer will reboot if you try to run 3dmark06, and yet the voltages are perfectly stable, and no squeals...

*It's getting replaced but goes to show, just because its not a top line psu doesn't mean its crap, companies don't make products "To fall apart".


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## Kasparz (Nov 2, 2007)

zekrahminator said:


> Tone down the insults, Kasparz...I've had the Thermaltake PSU for a little over two years now, and I have yet to hear so much as a squeal come from it.


Thermaltake Toughpowers that are built by Channel Well Technology are good. All other are CRAP CRAP CRAP.
Niko, Antec Smart Power 2 are built by CWT too, but it have Fuhjyyu caps. These are very heat sensitive caps(read-crap) and Antec had 10% RMA rate with these PSU's. Lets say, thats just RMA rate, real failure rate ir much bigger. Now Antec moved to Seasonic as OEM and these are very strong PSU's.
I have seen and have expierence with lot more than your two Antecs and to be honest PSU is first thing in PC to care. PSU feeds your components and weak PSU can blow up all your system.


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## niko084 (Nov 2, 2007)

Kasparz said:


> Thermaltake Toughpowers that are built by Channel Well Technology are good. All other are CRAP CRAP CRAP.
> Niko, Antec Smart Power 2 are built by CWT too, but it have Fuhjyyu caps. These are very heat sensitive caps(read-crap) and Antec had 10% RMA rate with these PSU's. Lets say, thats just RMA rate, real failure rate ir much bigger. Now Antec moved to Seasonic as OEM and these are very strong PSU's.
> I have seen and have expierence with lot more than your two Antecs and to be honest PSU is first thing in PC to care. PSU feeds your components and weak PSU can blow up all your system.



No thats true, and myself I have had experience with probably near 300-400 Antec Psu's over the past around 10 years.


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## Kasparz (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm working in very big computer shop as RMA guy and i know failure rates of this and that.


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## zekrahminator (Nov 2, 2007)

Kasparz said:


> Thermaltake Toughpowers that are built by Channel Well Technology are good. All other are CRAP CRAP CRAP.
> Niko, Antec Smart Power 2 are built by CWT too, but it have Fuhjyyu caps. These are very heat sensitive caps(read-crap) and Antec had 10% RMA rate with these PSU's. Lets say, thats just RMA rate, real failure rate ir much bigger. Now Antec moved to Seasonic as OEM and these are very strong PSU's.
> I have seen and have expierence with lot more than your two Antecs and to be honest PSU is first thing in PC to care. PSU feeds your components and weak PSU can blow up all your system.



Now, that's a much better/harder to argue with response than "Is that comes from the moderator? Oh snap.
Both thermaltake PSU's are crap as it were." . 


I think that all the recent TT purepowers are made by CWT, based on a lot of positive Newegg reviews of said late TT purepowers. Sorta like how Sapphire used to suck eggs when it came to making video cards, they changed their formula, and make really good cards now.

But yeah, for a steady dose of reliable power, I'd go for Corsair, FSP...etc .


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## Necrofire (Nov 4, 2007)

No, oh god no. I was never going to use hot glue to hold the wires together. I have a soldering station, and I have enough experience soldering to know what to do.

The hot glue would be for insulation, or more as a separation between wires. I have heatshrink, but I don't like wires actually touching whether or not they have insulation.

So, solder, heatshrink, then hot glue for separation.


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## Wile E (Nov 4, 2007)

Necrofire said:


> No, oh god no. I was never going to use hot glue to hold the wires together. I have a soldering station, and I have enough experience soldering to know what to do.
> 
> The hot glue would be for insulation, or more as a separation between wires. I have heatshrink, but I don't like wires actually touching whether or not they have insulation.
> 
> So, solder, heatshrink, then hot glue for separation.


Phew! I feel a LOT better now.


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