# AMD HD 4850 launched



## W1zzard (Jun 19, 2008)

As of 3PM CET the NDA for the Radeon HD 4850 Series has been lifted. Since this came as a surprise to everyone our reviews are not finished yet now finished.

MSI HD 4850 | PowerColor HD 4850

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## candle_86 (Jun 19, 2008)

wait no preformance numbers


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## wolf2009 (Jun 19, 2008)

candle_86 said:


> wait no preformance numbers



will be added later .


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## candle_86 (Jun 19, 2008)

yea i just noticed it lol


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## OnBoard (Jun 19, 2008)

*lurks in this thread* Wonder how it does againts 8800GTS, that is now in the same price. But good for ATI to beat this time after the HD3870/8800GT loss.

edit: oh, quite even, although HD4850 steals the lead in higher resolutions.

edit2: what I don't get is why 800 shaders doesn't crush absolutely everything? Maybe Vantage would give bigger difference between 3850 and 4850. Should be future proof at least, if games keep getting more shader heavy.

edit3: seems it did do much better on some actual games beating the HD3850 with 3times higher framerate.


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## hrvoje (Jun 19, 2008)

tx wizz 4 info, wondering how 4870X2 will do when comes out


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Jun 19, 2008)

ati tool dev for these, hows it going?


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

Appetizing 3DM'05 scores indeed. It beats the 9800 GTX.


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## W1zzard (Jun 19, 2008)

lemonadesoda said:


> Nobody cares about 3dmar03 and 05. You can skip those, or do them LAST. What we want are some REAL numbers to chew over.



go watch some porn and come back in one hour


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## Cold Storm (Jun 19, 2008)

First off, I just want to thank w1zz for just posting. I mean, he could of stated that the reviews wheren't done, and we'd had to wait.. But, thats not w1zz way of doing it!
Now for the scores... I think I'll make this card or the big brother my back up!


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## AsRock (Jun 19, 2008)

OnBoard said:


> *lurks in this thread* Wonder how it does againts 8800GTS, that is now in the same price. But good for ATI to beat this time after the HD3870/8800GT loss.
> 
> edit: oh, quite even, although HD4850 steals the lead in higher resolutions.
> 
> edit2: what I don't get is why 800 shaders doesn't crush absolutely everything? Maybe Vantage would give bigger difference between 3850 and 4850. Should be future proof at least, if games keep getting more shader heavy.



Maybe because the less ROP's ?.


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## lemonadesoda (Jun 19, 2008)

W1zzard said:


> go watch some porn and come back in one hour


Yes sir!

P.S. Get back to your bench!


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## PaulieG (Jun 19, 2008)

W1zzard said:


> go watch some porn and come back in one hour



LOL.


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## selway89 (Jun 19, 2008)

Cold Storm said:


> First off, I just want to thank w1zz for just posting. I mean, he could of stated that the reviews wheren't done, and we'd had to wait.. But, thats not w1zz way of doing it!
> Now for the scores... I think I'll make this card or the big brother my back up!



+1 
Thanks W1zz


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

Excellent 1600x1200 scores! Looks like 16x12 is become a sweet-spot for HD4850. If the HD4870 performs at least 15% better, it will make the GTX 280 look like a joke. But we still have game tests left.


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

How long do you think it will take nflesher to have one up for sale 
I bet 2 weeks


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## Cold Storm (Jun 19, 2008)

Gam'ster said:


> How long do you think it will take nflesher to have one up for sale
> I bet 2 weeks



Its probably going to be a while... Getting married, and stuff like that.. He doesn't even have time to put in his water cooling systm...lol... But, I'd say 2 weeks if he's able to...


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## wiak (Jun 19, 2008)

W1zzard said:


> go watch some porn and come back in one hour


+1


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

Cold Storm said:


> Its probably going to be a while... Getting married, and stuff like that.. He doesn't even have time to put in his water cooling systm...lol... But, I'd say 2 weeks if he's able to...


Ahh thats cool,
But on the topic of scores the 4850 is having no trouble keeping up with the 8800/9800gtx's, Impressive to say the least.

Gam


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## calvary1980 (Jun 19, 2008)

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1470/radeon_hd_4850_in_crossfire_at_4ghz/index.html I saw this morning I wasn't impressed with crossfire, no "driver mature" comments please. they have been maturing since the company founded.

- Christine


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

This card is rocking in games too! Finally, ATI is beating NVidia convincingly in TWIMTBP titles.

So far, overall the HD4850 is performing very well at high-resolutions (1600x1200 and 2048x1536). Looks like the "HD" prefix is being honest with us.


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## panchoman (Jun 19, 2008)

look at those prices! 4870 is 300 bucks and the gtx 280 is 659.. and if the 4870x2 beats the gtx 280.. it cant be more then 600 bucks... so amd's gonna have faster cards that are cheap.. the only concern is that you can tri sli with the gtx 280 but you cant with the 4870x2 yet i think..


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## HTC (Jun 19, 2008)

First: thank you for this review, Mr. W1zzard.

I think you didn't include Vantage scores in this review (as well as the GTX280 cards reviews) because you were unable to procure the other (older) cards to do Vantage tests on them as well (so that we could compare them all) but, IMHO, you should start to include it in your reviews sooner or later: preferably, sooner rather then later, wouldn't you say.


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## DaMulta (Jun 19, 2008)

One hell of a card for the price. One hell of a card period.


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

It beats the 9800GTX in Splinter Cell...with an epic margin. I'm dying to see the relative performance chart.

This GPU has "Hi-Def Champion" written all over it.


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## mullered07 (Jun 19, 2008)

its leaving the 9800gtx/8800gts for dirt in most games, thats unbelievable at that price, go ATI


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

mullered07 said:


> its leaving the 9800gtx/8800gts for dirt in most games, thats unbelievable at that price, go ATI



UK price From an unkown e-tailer too me anyway. but tekhead has it for £150 near enough.


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## mullered07 (Jun 19, 2008)

Gam'ster said:


> UK price From an unkown e-tailer too me anyway. but tekhead has it for £150 near enough.



i think im gonna wait a month for things to die down and see if i cant pick one up for £100  that cards sweet


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## zOaib (Jun 19, 2008)

W1zzard said:


> go watch some porn and come back in one hour



W1zz ill be quoting this fosho =)


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

mullered07 said:


> i think im gonna wait a month for things to die down and see if i cant pick one up for £100  that cards sweet



Yeah if its £130- £150 now.. plus give the 4870 to get out and about should be good for us all, this will most def win the hearts of even the most hardened Nvidia fanboi .


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm very happy. Happy in fact because NVidia is lying on the floor after a stunning nutkick. Only a $199 8800GTS 512M or $220 9800GTX can help them....or if ATI screws up with the supply, until NVidia retaliates with a new product.


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## MrMilli (Jun 19, 2008)

ComputerBase did a full review (in German though):
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/2008/kurztest_ati_radeon_hd_4850_rv770/


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

btarunr said:


> I'm very happy. *Happy in fact because NVidia is lying on the floor after a stunning nutkick*. Only a $199 8800GTS 512M or $220 9800GTX can help them....or if ATI screws up with the supply, until NVidia retaliates with a new product.




But i would think/hope AMD/ATI have thought it through and didn't/don't underestimate supply, This is a prime opportunity for them to cash in and get on their feet.


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## HTC (Jun 19, 2008)

MrMilli said:


> ComputerBase did a full review (in German though):
> http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/2008/kurztest_ati_radeon_hd_4850_rv770/



You can always use google translate!


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## ShadowFold (Jun 19, 2008)

I think im gonna wait for better drivers before I decide if I want one or not.. Or I will wait for the 4870. So far it doesnt really seem worth it over my 8800GT right now. Thanks a ton for the review tho w1zz!


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## ShadowFold (Jun 19, 2008)

Im mainly look at the 1024x1280/1440x900 charts because thats the res I game at.


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## HTC (Jun 19, 2008)

In the review MrMilli provided, google translated, noticed this:







4850 and 9800 GTX are really close, with the nVidia card very slightly ahead.

Now, notice what happens when you increase the details @ the same resolution:






The 9800 GTX loses by nearly 14%: quite significant, IMO.


*And now, in an even higher resolution:*






In here, the GTX is losing by just 5.4%: a small lead for the 4850 card.

Now, notice what happens when you increase the details @ the same resolution:






The 9800 GTX loses by a whopping 41.7%: WOW doesn't quite cover it, really!


Question is: will W1zzard review back this up?


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## WarEagleAU (Jun 19, 2008)

Just freaking awesome. Finally something from the Red camp that is as good in reviews as it is on paper. I cant really believe some of the scores. When I read GPU reviews on here, I skip over the games and go straight to 3dmark. I find myself itching to see the next game put up. Simply awesome.


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## ShadowFold (Jun 19, 2008)

For the price this thing is a beast..


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## magibeg (Jun 19, 2008)

These cards are unbelievable for the price! I think the 4850 is performing even better than i originally expected.


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 19, 2008)

Wow i didnt Know PowerVR was behind one of the Benchmarks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR

Im really stoked now, UT3 runs excellent on the card.



HTC said:


> In the review MrMilli provided, google translated, noticed this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## HTC (Jun 19, 2008)

It's also noteworthy that, @ 1280x1024 8xAA 16xAF, the GTX280 is 52.6% ahead of 4850 but @1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF, that difference drops to 31.8.

Sure: GTX280 is the better card, no doubt, but the gap lowered by 20.8% and that's really significant, IMO.

I wonder what the gap would be @ 2048x1536 ...


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## mdm-adph (Jun 19, 2008)

I _was_ going to come in here with a smug "Big win for ATI," but no -- this is a big win for the *consumer*.  Nvidia will now HAVE to drop the prices on their cards, and everybody wins in the end!

But seriously -- did even ATI know the R700 was going to be this fast?   I hate to jinx it, but it's faster than the 9800GTX for almost a hundred bucks less in some cases...

Know what else I like about the 4850 that's been missing in a lot of other ATI cards?  The fact that it's fast in *ALL* games, not just a select few, leaving others where it's trounced by much cheaper nVidia chips (of course that could just be the old nvidia "partner" program showing it's colors).


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## ghost101 (Jun 19, 2008)

Omg, its ridiculous how people are cherry picking reviews to show the 4850 in a bad light.

The reviews showing the 4850 equal or better than the 9800gtx are techpowerup, computerbase.de, guru3d, legionhardware.

While some people are foucusing on reviews from pcper and pcgh which are showing awful results for the 4850. For pcper its mainly because they are using a heavily oced 8800gt to conclude the 4850 isnt much better. The PCGH benchmarks are completely incosonsistent with the above ones. Just look at the call of duty 4 benchmarks where the 9800gtx destroys the 4850.

NB im talking about other sites.


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## KainXS (Jun 19, 2008)

mdm-adph said:


> I _was_ going to come in here with a smug "Big win for ATI," but no -- this is a big win for the *consumer*.  Nvidia will now HAVE to drop the prices on their cards, and everybody wins in the end!
> 
> But seriously -- did even ATI know the R700 was going to be this fast?   I hate to jinx it, but it's faster than the 9800GTX for almost a hundred bucks less in some cases...
> 
> Know what else I like about the 4850 that's been missing in a lot of other ATI cards?  The fact that it's fast in *ALL* games, not just a select few, leaving others where it's trounced by much cheaper nVidia chips (of course that could just be the old nvidia "partner" program showing it's colors).



I'm gonna have to agree, unless Nvidia drops the price of the 9800GX2 and GTX 280 to the 400 dollar mark, then they are screwed this time around

You can buy 2 4850's for almost 200 dollars less than 1 GTX 280 and get equal performance which means the 4870X2 is going to be the fastest single pcb card for a while

I wonder if 1 4870 will outperform 1 GTX260


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## newtekie1 (Jun 19, 2008)

This is the moment I've been waiting for.  Finally something from ATi that can compete with nVidia price/performance.  AND it not only competes, it destroys the competition.  Looks like it is time to finally ditch my eVGA 780i and 9800GTX.


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

It's official, the 9800 GTX (And G92 on the whole) is dethroned by a $199 card.


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## bwrobins (Jun 19, 2008)

The only thing that bothers me about the 4850 is the 100c (212f) that it reaches, which is stated in the conclusion... While it is within limits, its just really hot!! Otherwise all else is glorious!


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## yogurt_21 (Jun 19, 2008)

lemonadesoda said:


> Results so far (note odd result in Quake 4)



adding in wizz's crysis results should balance out the quake 4 ones.


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## Kreij (Jun 19, 2008)

I must admit that I am impressed with the 4850. I did not think it would perform as well as the benches show.

Great reviews W1zz! 

I think that we should all pitch in and get W1zz a 30" monitor so we can get some 2560x1600 results too.


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## W1zzard (Jun 19, 2008)

i bought a 24" tft today for exactly that reason .. BenQ G2400W .. but no 2560x1600


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

I wonder how many GS/GT/GTX orders have been canceled ?, by people who thought ATI wouldn't  have done so well as they have today.
I bet w1zz broke into a sweat today.
Gam


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## MrW (Jun 19, 2008)

Looks like I finally have a reason to throw out my CRT monitor.


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

Could the difference in GPU base-plate design (for the heatsink) be the reason for difference in power consumptions between the MSI and TUL PowerColor cards?


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## evil bill (Jun 19, 2008)

Gam'ster said:


> UK price From an unkown e-tailer too me anyway. but tekhead has it for £150 near enough.




I wouldnt trust these guys to actually have them. I "bought" an E8400 from them when no-one else seemed to have them, and despite assurances that it wasn't a pre-order, once they had my cash and failed to deliver on time the came back and said they were "having difficulty with suppliers".

To be fair, they did refund me straight away when I went mental at them ............


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Jun 19, 2008)

Amazing a card that cheap can kill an expensive card!  I'm gettin it!


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## ArkanHell (Jun 19, 2008)

I just wanna say that is so nice to have place where we can share ultmate news about a topic that all of us have interest into. It can be noted how no one can wait to have all the information.
Keep going guys!


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## Gam'ster (Jun 19, 2008)

evil bill said:


> I wouldnt trust these guys to actually have them. I "bought" an E8400 from them when no-one else seemed to have them, and despite assurances that it wasn't a pre-order, once they had my cash and failed to deliver on time the came back and said they were "having difficulty with suppliers".
> 
> To be fair, they did refund me straight away when I went mental at them ............



Yeah i usually only by from recommended retailers but that was the first hit i had with the 4850, but thanks for the heads up, we should have a dodgy trader thread .

Gam


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## Darkmag (Jun 19, 2008)

http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-ati-radeon-hd-4850-review-force-3d--powercolor/19

Check out the crossfire it out paces the GTX280 in some games. Hopefully drivers will mature and the card will scale better in most games.


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## miksanity (Jun 19, 2008)

DDAAMMNN look at those numbers! It beats a 8800GTX, which, as some remember, was all the rave a year ago - and it only costs 200 bucks! I will sell my 850xtPE to my friend for 150, and add 50 bucks, and be playing cod4 maxed on a 22! ATI- 1up for you guys!


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## btarunr (Jun 19, 2008)

ghost101 said:


> p45 and x48 comparison
> 
> http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1472/7/intel_p45_vs_x48_crossfire_performance/index.html
> 
> ...



Just because the bandwidth of PCI-E 1.1 x16 equals PCI-E 2.0 x8 theoretically, doesn't mean it should affect devices in the same way. A video-card primarily is an output device, 250MB/s  x16 is what 1.1 x16 gives while 500MB/s x8 is what 2.0 x8 gives. But do GPU's fully utilise the bandwidth of a lane in one direction? Questionable. The GeForce 9800 GX2 uses PCI-E 2.0 aribiters (nForce 200), the card doesn't significantly bottleneck as such with PCI-E 1.1 x16. On the card's PCB, (on a standard 8800 GT), note the wiring heading to the edge of the interface. Does a 8800 GT really need PCI-E 2.0 x16? Don't think so. 1.1 x16? Yes, that's why the wiring is all the way up till the last lanes' interface Why didn't they leave the wiring half way through (though it's found that PCI-E 1.1 x8 doesn't bottleneck it)? Because of the efficiency of PCI-E lanes in transporting data. 250 MB/s doesn't mean it transports 250 MB/s all the time. 

Apparently PCI-E 2.0 x8 might not be as efficient in transferring data as 1.1 x16. I'm talking to the walls but the odd benches should prove it. Which benches? The ones most ignored (as in the negligible differences of PCI-E 2.0 GPU's used/benched on 1.1 boards, in SLI/Crossfire setups where GPU's get x8 lanes each).

W1zzard did all his benching on a P35 board, including GT200 and 9800 GX2.


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## EastCoasthandle (Jun 19, 2008)

bwrobins said:


> The only thing that bothers me about the 4850 is the 100c (212f) that it reaches, which is stated in the conclusion... While it is within limits, its just really hot!! Otherwise all else is glorious!





> Some notes before the testing. The fan speed very low on the factory bios, I haven't been able to use any fan control to raise the speed so far. The temp is most likely fine even with an Idle of 79c but Being an XS'er I removed the factory thermal goop and replaced it with A.S. Ceramique. the idle temps are now 55c most of the time. That was a huge jump and I wonder if all of the cards suffer from this as I have seen rumors of other 4850's with similar temps (IE: FUD).
> The card makes no capacitor squealing noise even during ATI TOOL scanning. I also ran 3d01 which makes most cards squeal if they are going to, not a peep out of it.
> During testing I have noticedThis card seems very smooth. VPU recover works perfectly and the overclocking seems very rewarding. clock speed seems to play a huge role in performance of this card.


Source

When you get your 4850, etc replace the thermal paste with something better.


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## ShadowFold (Jun 19, 2008)

Anyone know if HIS is doing any IceQ versions?


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## kylew (Jun 19, 2008)

panchoman said:


> look at those prices! 4870 is 300 bucks and the gtx 280 is 659.. and if the 4870x2 beats the gtx 280.. it cant be more th*a*n 600 bucks... so amd's gonna have faster cards that are cheap.. the only concern is that you can tri sli with the gtx 280 but you cant with the 4870x2 yet i think..



Don't forget AMD have said they want to keep their cards at under $499! 

You won't be able to crossfire 3 4870X2s because crossfire X is only upto 4 GPUs, and as far as I know, vista only supports 4 AFR devices maximum.


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## wolf2009 (Jun 19, 2008)

ghost101 said:


> p45 and x48 comparison
> 
> http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1472/7/intel_p45_vs_x48_crossfire_performance/index.html
> 
> ...



WOW, i'm so glad i didn't wait for p45 when it was delayed , and went for x38.


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## kylew (Jun 19, 2008)

miksanity said:


> I will sell my 850xtPE to my friend for 150



That's just harsh!


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## kylew (Jun 19, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> WOW, i'm so glad i didn't wait for p45 when it was delayed , and went for x38.



! Would you think I'd be better off getting an X38 motherboard for crossfire 48XXs? 

I'm on P35 at the moment, and I know they're supposed to bottleneck 3800s (even if it is slightly) too nevermind 4800s .


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## lemonadesoda (Jun 19, 2008)

*UPDATED FIGURES*

OK, final results of summary scores from 34 sources:







Results of ATI vs. ATI

1./ 4850 is 31.9% faster than 3870 when scaling to a high resolution with low shader demand (Hardware.fr at 1920x1200)
2./ About 45.5% faster than 3870 at über resolutions like Apple Cinema 30" (Erenumerique.fr at 2560x1600)
3./ About 48.1% faster than 3870 at common resolutions with low shader demand (TPU at 1600x1200)
4./ About 64.8% faster than 3870 at common resolutions with high shader demand (Computerbase.de 1600x1200).

Conclusion

A. 4870 SOLVES the performance brick wall that hit 3870 at 1600x1200 when scaling shaders
B. 4870 improves but doesnt solve performance scaling to very high resolutions e.g. 1920x1200 and above

Results of nVidia vs. nVidia

1./ Across all benchmarks 8800GTX and 9800GTX are identical (although some differences in any one test)
2./ GTX280 is 60.0% faster on average than 8800GTX/9800GTX

Results of ATI vs. nVidia

1./ 4850 is faster than 8800/9800 by 4.9% on average
2./ GTX280 remains king by a lead of 50.8% over 4850
3./ At über resolutions 2560x1600 GTX280 is 70% faster than 4850

Conclusion ATI vs. nVidia
A. With GTX280>4850 by 50.8% and 4850>3870 by 45.5% then GTX280 is approximately "one generation ahead" in performance terms over 4850
B. With price point of $199 for 4850, nVidia need to get 8800/9800 down to $199 pretty fast or everyone (in the know) will move over to ATI
C. The GTX280 is simply an amazing performer in every case, even more so at über resolutions like Cinema 30"

***
.xls attached for anyone that wants to play with the figures


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## wolf2009 (Jun 19, 2008)

kylew said:


> ! Would you think I'd be better off getting an X38 motherboard for crossfire 48XXs?
> 
> I'm on P35 at the moment, and I know they're supposed to bottleneck 3800s (even if it is slightly) too nevermind 4800s .



absolutely , didn't u read the article .the performance numbers speak for themselves .


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## MrW (Jun 19, 2008)

lemonadesoda said:


> Conclusion
> 
> A. 4870 SOLVES the performance brick wall that hit 3870 at 1600x1200 when scaling shaders
> B. 4870 improves but doesnt solve performance scaling to very high resolutions e.g. 1920x1200 and above



Perfect card for high-res monitors.


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## kylew (Jun 19, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> absolutely , didn't u read the article .the performance numbers speak for themselves .



Not properly no 

AH, wow that's actually quite a bottleneck, there goes a P45 motherboard off my shopping list!


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## crow1001 (Jun 19, 2008)

Are the quake 4 benches right, the fps seem way to low on NV hardware, even the GX2 looks crap.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 19, 2008)

mdm-adph said:


> *Know what else I like about the 4850 that's been missing in a lot of other ATI cards?  The fact that it's fast in ALL games, not just a select few, leaving others where it's trounced by much cheaper nVidia chips (of course that could just be the old nvidia "partner" program showing it's colors).*



Oh... What a disapointment.  I thought that the fact that this new card performed well at all games was going to finally show people the truth and make them get rid of the myth (fallacy I would even say) that there was any involvement in that performance discrepancy other than the actual weaknesses of the R600/RV679 architecture. 

Seems not. If a new released card with new (and probably unpolished) drivers and NO game support AT ALL (the card was not available to developers), performing quite well across all games where it's predessor failed*, doesn't demostrate that the only factor for R600's erratic performance was it's own limitations, I don't know what is going to demostrate it.

*While not doing extremely well in 3Dmark 06 in comparison BTW, also important to note, as further demostrates that R600 didn't do qite well on games, because it couldn't and nothong more than that.


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## ShadowFold (Jun 19, 2008)

I can only imagine how powerful the 4870 is gonna be.. 4870X2 is probably gonna be the performance crown. I myself am gonna buy a 4850 with a nice cooler and OC it..


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## crow1001 (Jun 19, 2008)

4870 will probably just be a higher clocked 4850 so performance gains will not be that significant.


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## Urbklr (Jun 19, 2008)

ShadowFold said:


> I can only imagine how powerful the 4870 is gonna be.. 4870X2 is probably gonna be the performance crown. I myself am gonna buy a 4850 with a nice cooler and OC it..



+1

I'm ordering from FX tonight...if they have any left. I plan on replacing cooler, and overclocking

Edit: Just ordered a VisionTek HD4850....I'm excited


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## niko084 (Jun 19, 2008)

RAWR just sold my 3870, time to order a 4850 I think


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## farlex85 (Jun 19, 2008)

crow1001 said:


> 4870 will probably just be a higher clocked 4850 so performance gains will not be that significant.



DDR5 and 1gb of memory on the 4870. Its more than just an oc'd 50 this time around.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 19, 2008)

lemonadesoda said:


> OK, final results of summary scores from 3 sources:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice comprehensive conclusions. Also we could dive into memory and compare 8800 to 7900/X1900 back when it was launched and right now. And remember how overall 8800 was around 50% faster than the old ones at launch and now is twice as fast if not more. That also means IMHO:

A. RV770 is probably at least twice as fast as RV670.

B. GT200 is probably twice as fast as RV770.

C. There's a big bottleneck around the performance shown by the 9800 GX2, which more or less coincides (strangely enough) with the performance of GTX 280, 9800 GTX SLI, 8800 GT/GTS SLI and even 9600 GT SLI and many times the HD3870 X2 and GTX 260 (on the low), while we know that there's a big difference between the single cards. CrossfireX and Tri/Quad SLI didn't scale a lot better than that "mark", despite it's total power being theoretically a lot higher. In the recent past we talked about (and blamed) multi-GPU scaling, but it happens now that single cards with double the theoretical power run as fast as the dual GPU configurations of "half" powered cards in both Nvidia and Ati. Take into account that a bottleneck is not an static cap, but rather a limiter that is more severe as you increase the power and you have the answer right there. 

That's my opinion anyway.


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## W1zzard (Jun 19, 2008)

crow1001 said:


> Are the quake 4 benches right, the fps seem way to low on NV hardware, even the GX2 looks crap.



please read the comments .. i preemptively posted a comment stating that those numbers are valid. i was surprised myself. might be the strange way q4 does aa and the new way ati does aa on the rv770


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## lemonadesoda (Jun 19, 2008)

*RESULTS UPDATED FOR 2560x1600 ÜBER RESOLUTIONS*


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## quasar923 (Jun 19, 2008)

when will the 4850s be on sale on NE?


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## candle_86 (Jun 19, 2008)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=48&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

we have them at the egg


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## AsRock (Jun 19, 2008)

lemonadesoda said:


> *UPDATED FIGURES*
> 
> OK, final results of summary scores from 34 sources:
> 
> ...



Thing is you can get 3 4850's for the price of the GTX 280.  In my case could get 2 and be pretty setup.the GTX 280 is a better card but not at it's price range which makes it a worse card.


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## Megasty (Jun 19, 2008)

candle_86 said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=48&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=
> 
> we have them at the egg



Lets see how long they last


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## quasar923 (Jun 19, 2008)

that link doesnt work,  oh i see them now nvm


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## crow1001 (Jun 19, 2008)

Congrats to ATI on this release, they really have taken the fight to NV now, i still cant get over the cards AA/AF performance, its simply amazing, i didn't think i would go back to ATI after my GT but the 4870 is on the cards for me now.


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## ShadowFold (Jun 19, 2008)

I want that HIS one unless PALiT releases theirs in the next week.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 19, 2008)

candle_86 said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=48&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=
> 
> we have them at the egg



It wasn't Nvidia who had dictated advertised video card pricing or was Ati? 

Wow so many cards and all selling for the exact same price.


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## johnnyfiive (Jun 19, 2008)

Man, I love AMD/ATi.  I bet anyone with $400 to blow on a new video card is *very* happy right now. CrossFire FTMFW. Get that GTX280 mess outta here.

*Edit:* Anyone looking for some 3870's? I may have a couple for sale.


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## VroomBang (Jun 19, 2008)

*beats the 8800GTS for less $$$, nice!*

Very pleasantly surprised with those first game benchies. The 4850 actually beats the 8800 GTS in most tests, especially at 1600x1200 and above. It didn't look like it at first sight with 3DMark, which just shows you can't really rely on it. Very exciting little product we've got here .


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## H82LUZ73 (Jun 20, 2008)

I would like some AMD 790FX benchmarks with the 9850 Phen.

VroomBang the pic in you avatar is that a recent wreck?


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

Click 

More HD4850's hit the market, along with the Palit HD4850


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## wolf2009 (Jun 20, 2008)

Urbklr911 said:


> Click
> 
> More HD4850's hit the market, along with the Palit HD4850



i'm waiting for the palit cooler on that card , not reference crap.


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## Vincy Boy (Jun 20, 2008)

*Desperation of the fallen*

A Newegg "review"

Reviewer  	Product Review

Bobby D
    Tech Level: high
    Ownership: 1 day to 1 week


6/19/2008 4:52:02 PM
He gave it 2 eggs and says "its OK"

Pros: Its an OK card, nothing special.

Cons: Old tech. I would rather have a 8800GT from the other guys. Cheaper and same performance

Other Thoughts: Nice try, but no cigar. I am already selling it to get a GT. I had my hopes up for this series, but it looks like AMD loses again :/

0 out of 27 people found this review helpful. Did you? Yes No 


WTF! This is utter desperation. I hope it's just some pathetic nvidia fanboi. funny how many folks found the review helpful. "I would rather have a 8800GT", I have an 8800GT and so wish i could get rid of it for some 4850 sweetness. Thumbs way up to the boys in red. Get a life Bobby D and stay off the crack or meth, whatever it is:shadedshu


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## TooFast (Jun 20, 2008)

Vincy Boy said:


> A Newegg "review"
> 
> Reviewer  	Product Review
> 
> ...




what a loser. ATI WINS THIS TIME!


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## Megasty (Jun 20, 2008)

Vincy Boy said:


> A Newegg "review"
> 
> Reviewer  	Product Review
> 
> ...




Needless to say, the minds of some nvidiots are twisted fallacies


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## Cold Storm (Jun 20, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> i'm waiting for the palit cooler on that card , not reference crap.



Lets just order from Canada, and get the Palit card! Only way to get those babies! Unless Palit_Guy has something in store for us US people!?!?


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## DaMulta (Jun 20, 2008)

Cold Storm said:


> Lets just order from Canada, and get the Palit card! Only way to get those babies! Unless Palit_Guy has something in store for us US people!?!?



I heard they are coming. Non-reference design well I don't know about that one.


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## Cold Storm (Jun 20, 2008)

DaMulta said:


> I heard they are coming. Non-reference design well I don't know about that one.



Well, whenever they come out..whatever card for the US.. I'll be going to grab one! All ways wanted to have a ATI Palit card!


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## wolf2009 (Jun 20, 2008)

DaMulta said:


> I heard they are coming. Non-reference design well I don't know about that one.



hope its comes out as soon as possible, these reference coolers r crap. world needs to know wat palit coolers can do and i need to sell my current palit card and buy a new palit card.


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## Cold Storm (Jun 20, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> hope its comes out as soon as possible, these reference coolers r crap. world needs to know wat palit coolers can do and i need to sell my current palit card and buy a new palit card.



Here, here... I want to have another Palit card myself! I didn't have my 8800gt 1gb card long! lol


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> hope its comes out as soon as possible, these reference coolers r crap. world needs to know wat palit coolers can do and i need to sell my current palit card and buy a new palit card.



I wouldn't say their crap, AMD just sacrificed temperature for noise level. The coolers are capable of the cooling the card much better with a higher fan speed.


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## wolf2009 (Jun 20, 2008)

Urbklr911 said:


> I wouldn't say their crap, AMD just sacrificed temperature for noise level. The coolers are capable of the cooling the card much better with a higher fan speed.



any place or anyone showing the temps at 35% or 100% fan spped . 

for comparison my current palit card remains at 40 C with 35% fan speed at default, thats with all the cable clutter in the case .


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

wolf2009 said:


> any place or anyone showing the temps at 35% or 100% fan spped .
> 
> for comparison my current palit card remains at 40 C with 35% fan speed at default, thats with all the cable clutter in the case .



Yes, I believe TPU shows them at that speed. That would not be a fair comparison anyway, you don't own a R770.


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## NinkobEi (Jun 20, 2008)

gotta wait til june 25th for shipping..grr. thats way too long. hopefully there will be at least a hand full of good overclocking cards out there.


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## robodude666 (Jun 20, 2008)

Does anyone know if the HD 4850 or HD 4870 will support CrossFire with a HD 3870? CrossFireX is supposed to allow CrossFire between GPUs outside of the same family but that wasn't seen much according to the chart on AMD GAME. If they can CrossFire, then I am sold for one + a X48 motherboard. If not, I'll have to see how the 9800 GTX+ performs.

Cheers,
-robodude666


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## candle_86 (Jun 20, 2008)

well if my CPU wasn't such a bottleneck id consider it, i think after i get my 3870 running good for me next step is CPU but can't decide to go x2 6000 or Core2, the 6000 is cheaper to go to of course for me as ECS gurantee's 125w support and so does the local shop that sold me this Nforce4 AM2 board


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## InnocentCriminal (Jun 20, 2008)

W1zzard said:


> go watch some porn and come back in one hour



That's far too much time for him. 

@Candle - how are you finding the 3870, thought you only had eyes for nVIDIA?


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## candle_86 (Jun 20, 2008)

isnt here yet


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

robodude666 said:


> Does anyone know if the HD 4850 or HD 4870 will support CrossFire with a HD 3870? CrossFireX is supposed to allow CrossFire between GPUs outside of the same family but that wasn't seen much according to the chart on AMD GAME. If they can CrossFire, then I am sold for one + a X48 motherboard. If not, I'll have to see how the 9800 GTX+ performs.
> 
> Cheers,
> -robodude666



Crossfire between family's is supported. You can run a 48xx alongside your 3870.


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## kylew (Jun 20, 2008)

InnocentCriminal said:


> @Candle - how are you finding the 3870, thought you only had eyes for nVIDIA?



I was wondering the same. What made you get a 3870 after hating them so much?


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## candle_86 (Jun 20, 2008)

my 7950GT can't keep up and 120 wasn't a bad deal for close to 9600gt power


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## btarunr (Jun 20, 2008)

That's exactly why people buy ATI products...everything is priced right, prices fall when market doesn't receive them well.


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 20, 2008)

ah man im gob smacked over what these things can do for the price, im serisously thinking of gettin shot of my 3850 512MB for one of these things, i thought i'd be safe for at least a year but the price and almost double performance. holy god!


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## candle_86 (Jun 20, 2008)

btarunr said:


> That's exactly why people buy ATI products...everything is priced right, prices fall when market doesn't receive them well.



lol i got it on here, if i bought from the egg it would have been a 9600GT there priced the same


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 20, 2008)

To be honest i am getting massively confused with all the names and such, i think it was about time both companies started a new naming scheme; someone  on here (can't remember who) posted in what rank nVidia cards went and i took one look at it and passed out.

So what do these cards match in the nVidia camp? on price and performance? or is this a question that quite simply cannot be answered?


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## btarunr (Jun 20, 2008)

WhiteLotus said:


> To be honest i am getting massively confused with all the names and such, i think it was about time both companies started a new naming scheme; someone  on here (can't remember who) posted in what rank nVidia cards went and i took one look at it and passed out.
> 
> So what do these cards match in the nVidia camp? on price and performance? or is this a question that quite simply cannot be answered?



A company does _not_ name its products to retaliate to a competing company. Everything becomes 'current generation' once it hits the market. The HD4000 is not a series of products out to compete with NVidia's offerings on a particular generation's basis but more of on a price domination. Currently there's _no_ product from NVidia under $400 that can beat the $199 HD4850.


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## candle_86 (Jun 20, 2008)

to relate your question

4850 compares to 9800GTX/Ultra in preformance


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

btarunr said:


> A company does _not_ name its products to retaliate to a competing company. Everything becomes 'current generation' once it hits the market. The HD4000 is not a series of products out to compete with NVidia's offerings on a particular generation's basis but more of on a price domination. Currently there's _no_ product from NVidia under $400 that can beat the $199 HD4850.



I'm excited to see what Nvidia is gonna put out to compete with the HD4870, it's gonna wreck at only $299


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## DarkMatter (Jun 20, 2008)

btarunr said:


> A company does _not_ name its products to retaliate to a competing company. Everything becomes 'current generation' once it hits the market. The HD4000 is not a series of products out to compete with NVidia's offerings on a particular generation's basis but more of on a price domination. Currently there's _no_ product from NVidia under $400 that can beat the $199 HD4850.



Overclocked 8800 GTS and 9800 GTX and by a substantial margin. HD4850 doesn't overclock as well as those too, so in the end they would be around the same performance, despite the Radeon being a bit faster and cheaper.

And to be fair, it's worth mentioning they are going to go down in price and get an incredible boost with 177.35.
Also 8800 GT is marginally slower and price is a lot lower, you can have two 9600GT/HD3870 for around the same price which performa lot better, etc...


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## btarunr (Jun 20, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Overclocked 8800 GTS and 9800 GTX and by a substantial margin. HD4850 doesn't overclock as well as those too, so in the end they would be around the same performance, despite the Radeon being a bit faster.



I'm not talking about what a board-partner has to offer, I'm talking about what NVidia has to offer. HD4850's OC is limited arguably by  the fact that it shares the same core as a HD4870, and OC is supposed to be limited, add to that, the core runs hot and the reference cooler just about keeps it operational. When HIS jumps in with their blue-PCB and IceQ cooler, things will change (see, how I'm talking about what a board-parter has to offer, using your logic?). Remember how the initial BIOS of HD3850 restricted you from taking the core beyond ~730MHz ?


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Overclocked 8800 GTS and 9800 GTX and by a substantial margin. HD4850 doesn't overclock as well as those too, so in the end they would be around the same performance, despite the Radeon being a bit faster.



I'm thinking it will overclock fairly well, 90+ degrees temperatures might be what is holding it back.


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## InnocentCriminal (Jun 20, 2008)

I've said this quite of a bit of late, but if ATi release a 4850 in AGP (highly doubtful) I won't know if I should laugh or cry.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 20, 2008)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression the guy was asking with the intent of buying a card soon. To that purpose my post is helpful, your's is missleading IMO at the least.


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## btarunr (Jun 20, 2008)

That doesn't look a bad overclock, does it? (On stock-cooling, considering the core reaches 100C sometimes)







taken from W1z's review. Wonder what it performs like at those speeds.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 20, 2008)

btarunr said:


> That doesn't look a bad overclock, does it? (On stock-cooling, considering the core reaches 100C sometimes)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does (9% OC on Wizz review), when g92 does more than 15% on same conditions.


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

InnocentCriminal said:


> I've said this quite of a bit of late, but if ATi release a 4850 in AGP (highly doubtful) I won't know if I should laugh or cry.



It's possible....ATi have been showing AGP users the love where Nvidia won't, one more area ATi could score.


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> It does (9% OC on Wizz review), when g92 does more than 15% on same conditions.



With a loud dual-slot cooler. Give ATi props for fitting this amount of power in a quiet, single-slot package. If any of the manufacturers cool it better, it'll give better yields, me think.


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## Megasty (Jun 20, 2008)

Urbklr911 said:


> With a loud dual-slot cooler. Give ATi props for fitting this amount of power in a quiet, single-slot package. If any of the manufacturers cool it better, it'll give better yields, me think.



The cooler is nice & quiet, even @ 100%, but it still sucks. My niece has a system with 2 3850s in it. They got up to 80C pretty damn often. I ripped the red casing off the coolers & stuck some quiet delta fans on the heatsinks. The temps dropped to 40C. I'm just glad for Maximus MBs. The spacing between the pci-e slots let you do things like that. The coolers are really holding those single slot cards back.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 20, 2008)

Urbklr911 said:


> *With a loud dual-slot cooler.* Give ATi props for fitting this amount of power in a quiet, single-slot package. If any of the manufacturers cool it better, it'll give better yields, me think.



According to Wizz's review both 8800 GT's and GTS's cooler is quieter than the HD4850 under load. Mine is completely silent.

Anyway what the HD4850 could do with aftermarket coolers doesn't matter in this discussion. Plus they guy asked to compare the card to current Nvidia offerings. bt said HD4850 has no competition until $400 Nvidia cards, which is NOT TRUE AT ALL, and should be embarrased of saying something like that to someone with no knowledge.


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## Urbklr (Jun 20, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> According to Wizz's review both 8800 GT's and GTS's cooler is quieter than the HD4850 under load. Mine is completely silent.
> 
> Anyway what the HD4850 could do with aftermarket coolers doesn't matter in this discussion. Plus they guy asked to compare the card to current Nvidia offerings. bt said HD4850 has no competition until $400 Nvidia cards, which is NOT TRUE AT ALL, and should be embarrased of saying something like that to someone with no knowledge.



Well, if the guy games with AA or at a high res, the 4850 takes the win.


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## DarkMatter (Jun 20, 2008)

Urbklr911 said:


> Well, if the guy games with AA or at a high res, the 4850 takes the win.



Yeah but the difference is not that big. Indeed it's a lot smaller than the one that exists between 8800 GT and HD3870 and of the same nature. If it was legit to say HD3870 competed with the GT is even more legit to say 9800 GTX competes with the HD4850, considering that the AA and resolution achieved by 9800 GTX or 8800GTS, without taking a hit is a lot higher.


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## NinkobEi (Jun 20, 2008)

correct me if I am wrong, but wont new drivers make the 4850 even better?


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## WhiteLotus (Jun 20, 2008)

Ninkobwi said:


> correct me if I am wrong, but wont new drivers make the 4850 even better?



you can only hope! saying that i should get the new ones!


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## niko084 (Jun 20, 2008)

100c, no thanks.... I throw a fit once my cards hit 70c...


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## eidairaman1 (Jun 20, 2008)

If i recall Stock Fans were never meant for overclocking- hence why there is Zerotherm and Arctic Cooling, just to get you by stabily, besides, My 1950 Pro i never hear the cards fan beyond system boot, and there is no quirks, so the card is operating well within tolerance.


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## Megasty (Jun 21, 2008)

The Visiontek I just bought idles @ 65c with no OC. I haven't even tried an OC but while in Crysis it got up to 97c :shadedshu I'm in the process of ripping the casing off so I can stick one of my jyuni's on the thing. Heat is one thing but 97c when the card is using all its shaders is crazy


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