# Crazy seeing the mining operations in reddit



## xkm1948 (Feb 7, 2021)

First is some random guy based in US, Nobody can find GPU stock and this fellow managed to grab a crap load of 3060, 3070 and 3080


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		https://www.reddit.com/r/EtherMining/comments/leprmb

Do you think it is time TPU re-introduce crypto mining into the GPU benchmarks? @W1zzard








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## W1zzard (Feb 8, 2021)

xkm1948 said:


> Do you think it is time TPU re-introduce crypto mining into the GPU benchmarks?


No plans at this time


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## Khonjel (Feb 8, 2021)

Rather wizzard should dedicate a page to how wasteful crypto mining with GPU is and how cryptominers should sizzle in hell. Amen.


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## dgianstefani (Feb 8, 2021)

Khonjel said:


> Rather wizzard should dedicate a page to how wasteful crypto mining with GPU is and how cryptominers should sizzle in hell. Amen.


Yeah. Providing the foundation for the first decentralised, middleman free, fee free, international, secure, fast, 24/7, financial transaction and infrastructure network ever, is a bad thing, purely because it makes hardware harder to get. 

Gamers man.


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## JustAnEngineer (Feb 8, 2021)

Crypto currency exists to facilitate ransomware payments and money laundering and to enrich the creators of the schemes.  Name one other thing that isn't done ten thousand times better by VISA or Discover.


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## Khonjel (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Yeah. Providing the foundation for the first decentralised, middleman free, fee free, international, secure, fast, 24/7, financial transaction and infrastructure network ever, is a bad thing, purely because it makes hardware harder to get.
> 
> Gamers man.


Are you really trying to equate making two buck when the fad is relevant to some kind of democratic movement to "stick it to the man" or some such?

Stop it man lol. You'll make even seasoned prostitutes blush with that kinda praise.


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## Night (Feb 8, 2021)

Mining also brings malware, as in viruses that run in the background stealing your resources for someone elses gain, similar to botnets for DDoS attacks. Never been a fan of mining, ie. couldn't be bothered, also I'm not a fan of used GPUs hitting the used market again with different BIOSes, being near EOL and so on... not to mention hardware unavailabilty. Mining just adds more insecurity to the hardware market, nothing good has come of it.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Yeah. Providing the foundation for the first decentralised, middleman free, fee free, international, secure, fast, 24/7, financial transaction and infrastructure network ever, is a bad thing, purely because it makes hardware harder to get.
> 
> Gamers man.



hey care to loan me some of your Bitcoin so I can get a 30 year mortgage on a house? oh you can't help me with that... ah ok... I have to ask fiat banks to do that? oh i see...


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## dgianstefani (Feb 8, 2021)

So many cynics. 

Looked at what's happening in financial markets recently? 

Visa, PayPal, banks, corporatations, governments, all jumping on the crypto bandwagon. 

It will be free and open for maybe 5-10 more years. Then will get progressively more locked down, as establishments shift their powerbase. 

Live in the past with fear as your impulse and you will never be a first adopter of revolutionary technology. 

And to think this is a tech site lol.

I have 25k worth of mostly obsolete (1-4 years old) mining hardware set up at my camel milk farm in Australia. Powered entirely by off grid ex housing solar panels I bought for 10c on the dollar with 15 of their 25 year useful life left. 

Crypto makes sense when you solve the electricity problem.

That or you're china and dgaf about clean energy and just use coal to power farms. 

Watch what China does, they're pretty on point with shifting financial direction even as the USA declines.


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## Dinnercore (Feb 8, 2021)

Funny times, due to the price spike I used my 2080 Super to mine for a week and tweak it for efficiency. I managed to make it profitable even with my current power cost at 0,31€ per kWh.

I get 44MH/s at 112W power consumption. All the politics regarding krypto aside, it was a fun task to fine tune my hardware for optimal power efficiency.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Yeah. Providing the foundation for the first decentralised, middleman free, fee free, international, secure, fast, 24/7, financial transaction and infrastructure network ever, is a bad thing, purely because it makes hardware harder to get.
> 
> Gamers man.



Lol. 2012 called, it wants its ideas back.

Get with the program. This is pure speculative and will never go beyond it. Even if it does its a shadow economy, in other words, unprotected and unregulated. It won't ever fly. We used several thousands of years to figure out banks were a good idea.

Its called reinventing the wheel... no matter what you do, it'll once again turn into a wheel and all you did along the way was part many fools with money. That's what crypto has done until today. Its an economy of nothingness. What's being traded is the notion that somehow someday the idea of crypto will land in the real economy. It still hasn't, despite some examples of 'investments' - that's just speculating to make money, make no mistake. Its a self fulfilling prophecy that way.

Also
- its *not *secure. You lose wallet access (self managed! ergo vulnerable to all things in life, the very reason we wanted to not save money in old socks but put it in vaults), and you lose everything.
- its *not *free. The bill just didn't get paid yet or is not being calculated right. Energy usage of transactions is ramping up as the blockchain gets bigger.
- its *not *decentralised, because for trade you will still need exchanges and because there is no regulation right now, what you're seeing is millions and millions vanishing within exchanges. We've had numerous events already and they won't stop. Its the new bank heist often committed by its very founders, and therefore, you will want to regulate that, control it, especially as important people and organizations come in. Net result? You're right back where you started before crypto.
- It will be taxed, and it will be controlled and managed because that is how we manage societies, and money is integral to society.

- the infrastructure exists without crypto. The blockchain is not specific to financial currency. Currency can be anything that represents data.


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## dgianstefani (Feb 8, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Lol. 2012 called, it wants its ideas back.
> 
> Get with the program. This is pure speculative and will never go beyond it. Even if it does its a shadow economy, in other words, unprotected and unregulated. It won't ever fly. We used several thousands of years to figure out banks were a good idea.
> 
> ...


Secure - Hardware wallet/insured service with exchange. Loss of key/account is the same as losing your house keys and saying that the system isn't secure.
Free - The only fees are for using convenience services. There is 0 fee for sending crypto from one wallet to another, hence the peer to peer nature of the technology.
Decentralised - It's more convenient to trade using exchanges, but is absolutely _not _the only way to trade.
Taxed - already is bub. As you said, _get with the program_
Societies - Yeah, been proven to be real stable lately 

Infrastructure is literally the GP hardware that people mine with, and therefore is the most decentralised thing possible. So what if there's a lot of large scale mining farms, there's also a lot of one guy in garages as well. 

Remember Vayra, nothing ever changes and rules made from experience of the past apply to the future as well.

Have fun in your box.

"economy of nothingness"

As opposed to normal money which is backed by gold? Wait no...

In my view, conventional money is one of the biggest throw backs to an age that's passing. We've moved on from fax to VOIP/internet, we've moved on from gasoline to electric/hydrogen, we've moved on from steam trains to hyperloop, yet we still use national currencies?

I think there's a place for the equivalent of a "stock" where a nation has a tradable token/coin linked to it's GDP/fiscal status, but these need to be easily and conveniently converted into any other form of currency if the holder decides they want to.

Crypto is the closest we've come to a technology that can do all of these things, is scalable and also early stages technology wise, there's so much development going on.

Just like in software development is much faster than hardware, I think that crypto will supercede national currencies sooner or later.

That or national currencies will change and become more like stocks/crypto. Compromise of the two extremes.


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## trog100 (Feb 8, 2021)

Dinnercore said:


> Funny times, due to the price spike I used my 2080 Super to mine for a week and tweak it for efficiency. I managed to make it profitable even with my current power cost at 0,31€ per kWh.
> 
> I get 44MH/s at 112W power consumption. All the politics regarding krypto aside, it was a fun task to fine tune my hardware for optimal power efficiency.


 
my 2080ti is giving me about 57 m/hs.. its in my daily use machine i just leave it running nicehash 24/7 in the background.. basically i dont know its running.. its making around 45 dollars per week which gets added to my bitcoin stash.. my bitcoin stash will go wherever bitcoin goes.. 

i do have a 3080 (normal upgrade) still in its box waiting for me to get round to installing it.. that should produce up to 90 m/hs... i paid what i consider a good scalper price for that.. £1045.. 

my advice to anyone that does own a half decent gpu is to accept reality for what it is and set it to mining.. 

trog


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## yotano211 (Feb 8, 2021)

Khonjel said:


> Rather wizzard should dedicate a page to how wasteful crypto mining with GPU is and how cryptominers should sizzle in hell. Amen.


I dont believe in hell.


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## kapone32 (Feb 8, 2021)

As the popcorn is bubbling in the sauce pan. The pros and cons of decidedly human activity. Is it right? Is it wrong? Is it really "free"?


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2021)

W1zzard said:


> No plans at this time


I'm too busy to start that up again anyways, was a fun run though.



Khonjel said:


> Rather wizzard should dedicate a page to how wasteful crypto mining with GPU is and how cryptominers should sizzle in hell. Amen.


Hell no.  Techpowerup is about technology not gaming.  Keep it that way.  Use case agnostic.


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## xkm1948 (Feb 8, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I'm too busy to start that up again anyways, was a fun run though.
> 
> 
> Hell no.  Techpowerup is about technology not gaming.  Keep it that way.  Use case agnostic.




I am using your old guide as my research now R-T-B.

My 3090 is needed to process sequencing data every week and usually only take about 26~30hrs per week. Looks like I will be putting it to mining use during the rest of the week.


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## Divide Overflow (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Yeah. Providing the foundation for the first decentralised, middleman free, fee free, international, secure, fast, 24/7, financial transaction and infrastructure network ever, is a bad thing, purely because it makes hardware harder to get.


Your exchange just called.  They got hacked / raided / shutdown / disappeared.
Oh, and Greta Thunberg is on the other line.  She wants a few words with you.

Miners man.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Crypto makes sense when you solve the electricity problem.



Crypto makes sense as long as you can exchange it for fiat, take that out the equation and it’s utterly worthless. Bitcoin began as an alternative currency for payments and nobody gave a shit but as soon as exchanges popped out that allowed you to cash out it’s value  skyrocketed.


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## the54thvoid (Feb 8, 2021)

Pump and dump. That's how Bitcoin's going at the moment. Investing is pushing the price up, at some ceiling, people start to sell, you get a domino effect. 
Tesla just bought $1.5b worth and Elon tweets it. How's that for market manipulation? The golden boy snaps his hyper-wealthy fingers and people pay attention. He could sell it again, Tweet something negative and it'd crash. Hell, if he smokes another blunt, he might do that for a joke.


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## trog100 (Feb 8, 2021)

i just read somewhere that tesla has 20 billion in cash... buying 1.5 billions worth of bitcoin is small change to them.. its just somewhere to put some spare investment cash..

the thing that most folks dont seem to grasp is that to the mega rich cash has to be made use of somehow otherwise its worth bugger all.. just figures on a balance sheet..

i have a small amount of crypto.. i could convert it into cash but why should i if i think crypto is gonna increase in its cash value.. there is only one reason.. i need the cash.. being as i dont i will hang onto my crypto and watch it go up in value.. something i think it will do..



trog

ps.. for what its worth i have just read that apple are about to convert some of its spare cash into crypto.. 5 billions worth this time.. he he


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## Space Lynx (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> So many cynics.
> 
> Looked at what's happening in financial markets recently?
> 
> ...





trog100 said:


> i just read somewhere that tesla has 20 billion in cash... buying 1.5 billions worth of bitcoin is small change to them.. its just somewhere to put some spare investment cash..
> 
> the thing that most folks dont seem to grasp is that to the mega rich cash has to be made use of somehow otherwise its worth bugger all.. just figures on a balance sheet..
> 
> ...




Time will tell if this is good decision making or not. Yellen may decide to tax BTC used in business transactions or exchanges, if she feels it threatens fiat and therefore government sovereignty, I could see a scenario where Yellen places 40%+ tax rates on any exchange made with BTC, time will tell if government embraces it or not, but my hunch is not. Being able to print, negotiate with it in trade deals, etc is too powerful an asset for government to simply give it up. Cryptocurrency does undermine Fiat, and once Yellen realizes that, it will be banned everywhere or taxed to death.


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## xrror (Feb 8, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Yeah. Providing the foundation for the first decentralised, middleman free, fee free, international, secure, fast, 24/7, financial transaction and infrastructure network ever, is a bad thing, purely because it makes hardware harder to get.
> 
> Gamers man.


Because crypto doesn't give a f*ck about the hobby it destroyed, and sorry - at this point it's grown into a speculative pump and dump for the big money to gamble in. The days where it made a difference to the "little people" who might have benefited from a decentralized currency are long behind it.

So yea, Gamers man. But don't worry, we've lost enough generations of kids to phones and consoles, let alone made the 2nd attempt at VR still-born due to lack of hardware availability that you won't have to worry about us annoying PC gamers anymore.


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## R-T-B (Feb 8, 2021)

xkm1948 said:


> I am using your old guide as my research now R-T-B.
> 
> My 3090 is needed to process sequencing data every week and usually only take about 26~30hrs per week. Looks like I will be putting it to mining use during the rest of the week.


Old guide was pascal based but still has some pretty cool and most likely relevant data in it.

Honestly, I know it's rather cliche, but I have had no desire to mine since stable employment.



xrror said:


> Because crypto doesn't give a f*ck about the hobby it destroyed


It didn't destroy it, last I checked.  This is nothing a proper retail queueing system can't solve.


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## trog100 (Feb 9, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Time will tell if this is good decision making or not. Yellen may decide to tax BTC used in business transactions or exchanges, if she feels it threatens fiat and therefore government sovereignty, I could see a scenario where Yellen places 40%+ tax rates on any exchange made with BTC, time will tell if government embraces it or not, but my hunch is not. Being able to print, negotiate with it in trade deals, etc is too powerful an asset for government to simply give it up. Cryptocurrency does undermine Fiat, and once Yellen realizes that, it will be banned everywhere or taxed to death.



governments are caught in a money printing trap they cant get out of... fiat currencies are being debased into nothingness.. the bottom line being they have lost control of the situation.. they have to keep printing.. they have no other way..

none of this has a good ending but the likes of yellen can no longer do much about it..

bitcoin is on its way to the moon.. good or bad i really dont know but times they are a changing.. apple will be the next big bitcoin buyer.. after that there is no stopping it..

bitcoin is now at 47K and rising.. 

trog


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## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Secure - Hardware wallet/insured service with exchange. Loss of key/account is the same as losing your house keys and saying that the system isn't secure.
> Societies - Yeah, been proven to be real stable lately


Secure like a house? So you can get the crowbar to break into your wallet after your keys are lost? I see. Don't dodge the obvious point here. This alone is a major issue, it could be circumvented, but guess what, you'd need.... a third party holding something for you as a backup. A bank?

Societies being unstable is exactly the reason this coin surges every now and then. Another one is people like Musk jumping onto the social media bandwagon, something the man is not unfamiliar with. Are these all really signs of big change? I beg to differ. Change moves slowly. Bitcoin is erratic.



the54thvoid said:


> Pump and dump. That's how Bitcoin's going at the moment. Investing is pushing the price up, at some ceiling, people start to sell, you get a domino effect.
> Tesla just bought $1.5b worth and Elon tweets it. How's that for market manipulation? The golden boy snaps his hyper-wealthy fingers and people pay attention. He could sell it again, Tweet something negative and it'd crash. Hell, if he smokes another blunt, he might do that for a joke.


+1


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## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Secure like a house? So you can get the crowbar to break into your wallet after your keys are lost? I see. Don't dodge the obvious point here. This alone is a major issue, it could be circumvented, but guess what, you'd need.... a third party holding something for you as a backup. A bank?
> 
> Societies being unstable is exactly the reason this coin surges every now and then.



I don't think people realize (or rather some do and are intentionally quite about it) just how grim the situation can get, if things continue to evolve as they do right now we might witness probably the worst crash ever of any asset in history and a lot of people are going to lose an astronomical amount of cash.

Bitcoin has a clear pattern to it, every 4 years or so it's price is estimated to go up by about ~32 times because of the way it was designed to be mined. Obviously more and more people will speculate on this and by people I don't mean your forum dweller who buys 1000$ worth of bitcoin or mines it with a couple of GPUs. I mean the sort of people who invest millions of dollars or even billions.

The inevitable outcome of these estimations is that bitcoin will reach completely absurd levels and at some point these people will want to cash out causing a chain effect. The problem will be that since none of this shit is actually covered by real assets or capital that comes even close to being of equal value the whole thing will collapse on itself and exchanges/trading services will go bust. It will be a similar thing to what happened in 2008 when banks lent out money that couldn't be covered by the assets they owned. Remember that whenever you see "bitcoin has a cap worth X zillion billion dollars" that's utter bollocks and means nothing, there is probably not even a fraction of that in real capital involved into it.


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## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> This alone is a major issue, it could be circumvented, but guess what, you'd need.... a third party holding something for you as a backup. A bank?


Nah man, your overthinking it.  It's as simple as Paper.



Vayra86 said:


> Change moves slowly. Bitcoin is erratic.


Longterm, not really.  If you look at it longterm the trend is growth, period.  Not erratic.  You can site this dip and that instant, but that is NOT looking longterm.



Vya Domus said:


> The problem will be that since none of this shit is actually covered by real assets or capital that comes even close to being of equal value the whole thing will collapse on itself and exchanges/trading services will go bust.


Why?  Most exchanged are backed by the US dollar now.  Is it going bust or something?


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## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Most exchanged are backed by the US dollar now.


The question is by how much as to not implode when shit (inevitably in my opinion) hits the fan.


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## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> The question is by how much as to not implode when shit (inevitably in my opinion) hits the fan.


Some less legit ones may not be 100% value backed, but that's a fools gambit, and coinbase isn't doing that at least.  It's not where the money is anyways.  The money is in withdrawal fees.  In most exchanges they are a percentage, not a small fixed fee.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 9, 2021)

I seriously doubt any of these services are fully backed and I am talking about a future that's speculated where they couldn't possibly be able to cover it all.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 9, 2021)

trog100 said:


> governments are caught in a money printing trap they cant get out of... fiat currencies are being debased into nothingness.. the bottom line being they have lost control of the situation.. they have to keep printing.. they have no other way..
> 
> none of this has a good ending but the likes of yellen can no longer do much about it..
> 
> ...



we'll see.    i'll be back in 6 months to chime in.


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## Hachi_Roku256563 (Feb 9, 2021)

Why is the 580 faster then the 1080ti at mining??????????????????


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## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> I seriously doubt any of these services are fully backed and I am talking about a future that's speculated where they couldn't possibly be able to cover it all.


The exchange on coinbase uses mostly open books (I say mostly because it's not individual names, obviously).  It's fully backed.  You do know how exchanges work, right?  It doesn't go up/down because of some magic opinion fairy dust.  It does so because someone is willing to pay that with a buy order.  Coinbase isn't dealing in anything they don't have.  I doubt any remaining sensible exchange is.

Plus that's called fractional-reserve trading, and I'm pretty sure in scenarios like this it's illegal.  One audit would kill them.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Nah man, your overthinking it.  It's as simple as Paper.
> 
> 
> Longterm, not really.  If you look at it longterm the trend is growth, period.  Not erratic.  You can site this dip and that instant, but that is NOT looking longterm.
> ...


Maybe.


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## R-T-B (Feb 9, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Maybe.


That I could CONCEIVABLY buy.  That the dollar crashing would suddenly wound bitcoin.  But I don't think it would kill it.  Actually, it's possible it may do the opposite, even.

I really don't see it dying at this point.  Say what you will.


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## Vayra86 (Feb 9, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> That I could CONCEIVABLY buy.  That the dollar crashing would suddenly wound bitcoin.  But I don't think it would kill it.  Actually, it's possible it may do the opposite, even.
> 
> I really don't see it dying at this point.  Say what you will.


If it dies, none of us will have seen it coming, that's the thing.

The current scheme will go fine until it goes wrong. We've already heard talk about a new stance on economy , spending and that we shouldn't care at all about debt. We already have a situation where interest rates are sometimes even below zero. Goal posts have been moved time and time again, and somewhere along the way, people do pay for it. That's why we have what we have in the world right now. Money and its value has become more abstract than it ever was - if you're on the receiving end of money that is. The rest of those suckers just gotta work for minimum wage or less.

That is also why these coins can soar and dive so hard and all is well in the world. We're deep down this rabbit hole already, but we're all invested together, really.

Maybe this is how we finally maintain world peace. We just have such a massive debt pit none of us can crawl out of it again, keeping each other under permanent curation. One could defend China and the US have already reached that state of limbo. Neither of them wants to start shooting. So maybe this is the new world order right here


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## trog100 (Feb 9, 2021)

how much is money (lets say the dollar) worth when you can borrow as much of it as you want at negative interest rates and never have to pay it back..

there is something called a crack up boom.. this occurs when everyone realizes that "money"  is becoming worthless and swaps it for "stuff".. this occurs just before the real collapse.. 

when this sh-t happens nobody knows but some think it aint far away.. 

trog


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## xrror (Feb 9, 2021)

Yea my ranting isn't really to be anti-cryptocurency, it's more the extreme irritation that by "happenstance" it pretty much annihilates the one hobby I enjoy.

I was really hoping the ASICs would come along and crypto-mining would have moved on, but it looks like they just make "new" currencies now and unfortunatly GPU arch will still remain viable to mine the currency of the month with.


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## Hardcore Games (Feb 10, 2021)

Waste of power, video cards and criminal in nature. Three strikes so off to death row......... Send a few miners that way and prices fall faster than a rock.


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## hat (Feb 10, 2021)

Quite a lot of hate in this thread. I'm a miner too, albeit a very small one with only two GTX1070s that I've had for like, 4 years? Maybe 3... anyway, guess who also can't get a new GPU?

If you take a step back, it looks to me like this is more about the haves and have nots, rather than miners vs gamers. We're all in the same boat here.


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## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

hat said:


> Quite a lot of hate in this thread. I'm a miner too, albeit a very small one with only two GTX1070s that I've had for like, 4 years? Maybe 3... anyway, guess who also can't get a new GPU?
> 
> If you take a step back, it looks to me like this is more about the haves and have nots, rather than miners vs gamers. We're all in the same boat here.



yes the haves being those who own a graphics card that can mine and those who dont but would like one.. 

there must be loads of gamers who are also miners.. 

trog


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## xrobwx71 (Feb 10, 2021)

trog100 said:


> i just read somewhere that tesla has 20 billion in cash... buying 1.5 billions worth of bitcoin is small change to them.. its just somewhere to put some spare investment cash..
> 
> the thing that most folks dont seem to grasp is that to the mega rich cash has to be made use of somehow otherwise its worth bugger all.. just figures on a balance sheet..
> 
> ...


Tesla will also start accepting BC as payment for their products.


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## yotano211 (Feb 10, 2021)

All I read on here are lots of mad angry gamers who can't find their graphics card. And mad angry gamers who are mad at miners.


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## kapone32 (Feb 10, 2021)

trog100 said:


> yes the haves being those who own a graphics card that can mine and those who dont but would like one..
> 
> there must be loads of gamers who are also miners..
> 
> trog


Well I know that I am a Gamer. I have over 2000 hours in Total War Shogun 2. The thing is I don't Game while I am working. There are sites like Nice Hash that make the process seamless. Why would I not take advantage of my GPU that cost $1300 (CAD) paying me (right now) $15 US a day while I am working? This BTC venture is a very different animal than the last one as there are plenty of institutional investment houses and corporations that are signing up. Indeed the economy is also fueling it as investors look for ways to maintain their profit margins while many traditional vehicles flounder (Coca Cola lost 90+% of it's revenue in 2020). The mind share effect is very powerful though. There are plenty of people that  got into PC in 2020 from watching Youtube. Think of it this way. Even though Intel has chips in laptops, OEM and DIY and AMD only has DIY and yet still made up market share vs Intel in most of 2020. Anyone who watches Youtube knows about the 2080TI and they also know that the 2080TI is no longer the fastest card on the planet. Meanwhile BTC is at 30 whatever thousand a coin?


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## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2021)

xrror said:


> Yea my ranting isn't really to be anti-cryptocurency, it's more the extreme irritation that by "happenstance" it pretty much annihilates the one hobby I enjoy.
> 
> I was really hoping the ASICs would come along and crypto-mining would have moved on, but it looks like they just make "new" currencies now and unfortunatly GPU arch will still remain viable to mine the currency of the month with.


I'm in the same boat as you man.


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## Final_Fighter (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> That I could CONCEIVABLY buy.  That the dollar crashing would suddenly wound bitcoin.  But I don't think it would kill it.  Actually, it's possible it may do the opposite, even.
> 
> I really don't see it dying at this point.  Say what you will.


it would actually make btc stronger because btc is backed by more than the dollar. besides, the world revolves around the U.S. less each passing day. china is projected to overtake it by 2025. current policy's in the U.S. stunt economic growth and more regulation wont solve that. the U.S. is literally swimming in debt, and printing money out and handing it to people. btc is not the savior by any means but its already to big to pull down. the current U.S. admin isnt going to touch it because it will piss a bunch of people off. and, they already tax it as capital gains when you pull. its staying put.


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## phill (Feb 10, 2021)

xrror said:


> Yea my ranting isn't really to be anti-cryptocurency, it's more the extreme irritation that by "happenstance" it pretty much annihilates the one hobby I enjoy.
> 
> I was really hoping the ASICs would come along and crypto-mining would have moved on, but it looks like they just make "new" currencies now and unfortunatly GPU arch will still remain viable to mine the currency of the month with.


If you have seen the price of the miners themselves and the 'sites' you need to visit to get orders, you'll possibly understand why miners use GPUs rather than the ASIC miners    It's a sad state of affairs that's for sure.  I'm a miner ish and I'm also missing out on GPUs, trying to buy something even half way house at the moment is crazy but all of the cards I do have are mining away quite happily.  I make sure the efficiency is there first and foremost, that's more important to me than anything.  

I'm now of the school of believing I will try and track down something like a 5700XT, 3080 or even a 3090 to get some more stock into mining but also then I can at least pass it on to my Mrs's and my daughters cos you know, what soon to be 9 (going on 16) and 2 year old doesn't need a 3090 in their gaming PC??


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

the UK ebay going price for a 3080 seems to be £1400 quid phil.. which makes the £1045 i paid for one three weeks or so back a bargain.. it also makes the rrp price a joke..

i recon a 3080 would be making around $10-11 dollars a day right now.. in one year that would be about £4000 dollars..

mine is still sat in its box unopened where its likely to stay for a while.. he he

i would like to swap my 8 x 1070 cards for some 3060s but at current ebay prices it would set me back near 10K... way too much..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2021)

Divide Overflow said:


> Your exchange just called. They got hacked / raided / shutdown / disappeared.


Good thing everyone knows not to keep their earnings in exchanges.

Seriously though, people are finally starting to learn.  I thought they'd learn after Mt Gox, but people are slow I guess.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Good thing everyone knows not to keep their earnings in exchanges.
> 
> Seriously though, people are finally starting to learn.  I thought they'd learn after Mt Gox, but people are slow I guess.



i still see it all as monopoly money to be honest rtb.. in a years time i may be monopoly rich or i may have lost the lot.. its all interesting to watch but it wont impact my real life in any way..

i may be lucky but i have no debt and all the basic necessities i need.. i dont want for much except maybe eternal life cos i am getting a bit old.. he he..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2021)

trog100 said:


> i still see it all as monopoly money to be honest rtb.. in a years time i may be monopoly rich or i may have lost the lot.. its all interesting to watch but it wont impact my real life in any way..
> 
> i may be lucky but i have all the basic necessities i need i dont want for much..
> 
> trog


People can view it as whatever they want.  What it's traded for at any given time is it's worth at that point in time, though.

Make no mistake, the dollar has value and is evaluated by these same metrics.  It gains and looses too.  But it's much older, and has the backing of a large nation, so of course it has more stability.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> People can view it as whatever they want.  What it's traded for at any given time is it's worth at that point in time, though.



true but i aint trading it just adding a bit through small scale mining and hanging on to the rest watching where it goes.. 

unlike you i never got out the first time around..

trog

ps.. one thing has changed i am not putting any more "cash" into it.. back in 2017/18 i did put around £11000 into it.. i have seen that original investment show a big gain and then a  big loss and its now showing a bigger gain.. up and down it goes and my life goes on pretty much the same..


----------



## jaggerwild (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> People can view it as whatever they want.  What it's traded for at any given time is it's worth at that point in time, though.
> 
> Make no mistake, the dollar has value and is evaluated by these same metrics.  It gains and looses too.  But it's much older, and has the backing of a large nation, so of course it has more stability.


Were movng towards NWO=New World Order. In effect it means one money, one country. The Dollar has not had backing for a long long time, FIAT money they print any time they feel like it.  I see no disadvantage of Mining, banks are getting into it. Investors are, whats it at right now lol $28000? To just bad mouth it and say it is speculation, is to bad mouth Wall Street as well. Ah There using this time, to raid peoples retirements and to eliminate the middle class. Why you think there impeaching Trump a second time while 1/2 a Million people are dead from Covid?


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

jaggerwild said:


> Were movng towards NWO=New World Order. In effect it means one money, one country. The Dollar has not had backing for a long long time, FIAT money they print any time they feel like it.  I see no disadvantage of Mining, banks are getting into it. Investors are, whats it at right now lol $28000? To just bad mouth it and say it is speculation, is to bad mouth Wall Street as well. Ah There using this time, to raid peoples retirements and to eliminate the middle class. Why you think there impeaching Trump a second time while 1/2 a Million people are dead from Covid, aside from being DEMS(thats no excuse).



its around $45000 at the moment but whats 20 grand or so in a bitcoin world.. it might be 65k next week.. he he

RTB is way wrong to put faith in the dollar though its currently being printed into oblivion..

trog


----------



## Vario (Feb 10, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> All I read on here are lots of mad angry gamers who can't find their graphics card. And mad angry gamers who are mad at miners.


As an amateur environmentalist, it bothers me.  Certainly gamblers could just day-trade penny stocks instead and generate less waste.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2021)

jaggerwild said:


> The Dollar has not had backing for a long long time,


Of course it has.  It's backing is the US economy.

I'm not going to comment on the rest because politics are banned.


----------



## Vario (Feb 10, 2021)

Looking forward to seeing all the burned out graphics cards being reshrink-wrapped and sold on eBay, and the subsequent editorials from miners about how they are a better value proposition than buying it new or from preowned from a gamer, as if running it 24/7 at 80% for an unintended purpose in a closely packed shithole farm is somehow better than occasionally using it 100% for a few hours a week.  Then reading all the gloat posts from you lot about reselling it for a price above your (MSRP) basis.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2021)

Vario said:


> As an amateur environmentalist, it bothers me.  Certainly gamblers could just day-trade penny stocks instead and generate less waste.


This part bothers me too, no lie.  But I don't see gaming as any worse on an individual basis, the problem is scale.  Mining is way bigger.  We need to find some way to limit that.



Vario said:


> Looking forward to seeing all the burned out graphics cards being reshrink-wrapped and sold on eBay, and the subsequent editorials from miners about how they are a better value proposition than buying it new or from preowned from a gamer, as if running it 24/7 at 80% for an unintended purpose in a closely packed shithole farm is somehow better than occasionally using it 100% for a few hours a week.


Honestly, it's not that damaging, or even more damaging to any part but the fans really.  Treat it as what it is:  a used card.


----------



## Vario (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> This part bothers me too, no lie.  But I don't see gaming as any worse on an individual basis, the problem is scale.  Mining is way bigger.  We need to find some way to limit that.
> 
> 
> Honestly, it's not that damaging, or even more damaging to any part but the fans really.  Treat it as what it is:  a used card.


If its like the last couple bubbles, for the next three years what we have to look forward to are used (abused) cards sold at two times MSRP.  I guess we should be satisfied with the table scraps.  Consoles really make a lot of sense.  AMD/Nvidia could just lock out mining at a hardware level but they make too much money from it.


----------



## mouacyk (Feb 10, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> Pump and dump. That's how Bitcoin's going at the moment. Investing is pushing the price up, at some ceiling, people start to sell, you get a domino effect.
> Tesla just bought $1.5b worth and Elon tweets it. How's that for market manipulation? The golden boy snaps his hyper-wealthy fingers and people pay attention. He could sell it again, Tweet something negative and it'd crash. Hell, if he smokes another blunt, he might do that for a joke.


+9000

Stay away from this stuff if you want to keep the value or your fiat currencies.  There's a lot of actors benefiting from this that don't deserve it, because the dumb herd has never been connected to the world like this before.  We have the pandemic to thank for keeping the gullible glued to a social media screen.


----------



## Vario (Feb 10, 2021)

trog100 said:


> i just read somewhere that tesla has 20 billion in cash... buying 1.5 billions worth of bitcoin is small change to them.. its just somewhere to put some spare investment cash..
> 
> the thing that most folks dont seem to grasp is that to the mega rich cash has to be made use of somehow otherwise its worth bugger all.. just figures on a balance sheet..
> 
> ...


Honestly, fuck the mega rich.  That's proof that the taxation system is not adequate.  They don't care about you, you should have no reason to care about them.  They aren't going to make you mega rich because you like their policies.  Obviously to be mega rich in the first place means they vacuumed it out of everyone else's pocketbook.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

there is a certain large mining pool probably where all the whales are.. currently doing some large bitcoin sells... they are trying to drive the price down but the buying strength is holding them back.. or so i hear..

dips along the way are normal for bitcoin.. but the general trend is up..

trog


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 10, 2021)

Vario said:


> for the next three years what we have to look forward to are used (abused) cards sold at two times MSRP.


Thing is, the cards weren't really all that worn out.  The problem was people flashing mining bioses and leaving them on there.  Truth be told, that's impossible in modern cards, and though I miss being able to mod my bios, I do NOT miss having to wade through that.  It was indeed awful, and spoke to human laziness and greed all at the same time.


----------



## Vario (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Thing is, the cards weren't really all that worn out.  The problem was people flashing mining bioses and leaving them on there.  Truth be told, that's impossible in modern cards, and though I miss being able to mod my bios, I do NOT miss having to wade through that.  It was indeed awful, and spoke to human laziness and greed all at the same time.


And the problem of buying used obsolete graphics cards at above MSRP with no warranty two years after their release.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 10, 2021)

Vario said:


> As an amateur environmentalist, it bothers me.  Certainly gamblers could just day-trade penny stocks instead and generate less waste.


and what is an, amateur environmentalist, is that another made up word.


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 10, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Of course it has.  It's backing is the US economy.
> 
> I'm not going to comment on the rest because politics are banned.



Its staggering how people think money is worth anything without people and people live in a certain place with all of its rules and limitations. People are not invested in money. People are invested in places, in things, in a livelihood, a house, a car. Bitcoin, like all things that represent money, is not worth a thing until you withdraw it and use it to trade it into something else. We don't earn our salaries in Bitcoin, so the only way more of it enters the market is through mining. It cannot escape that loop really, until people create Bitcoin Country with its own Bitcoin-currency to pay out salaries.

That is why national currencies are here to stay. Even if they fail completely, they'll still stay. Many coins have known hyperinflation and still survive to this day.



trog100 said:


> there is a certain large mining pool probably where all the whales are.. currently doing some large bitcoin sells... they are trying to drive the price down but the buying strength is holding them back.. or so i hear..
> 
> dips along the way are normal for bitcoin.. but the general trend is up..
> 
> trog


Yes, the trend is up because that's the only way it'll go in a market with finite goods.

So why would you ever want to spend your Bitcoin? You just know you're pissing away profit. The only way to spend it and not lose profit, is to speculate with it.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 10, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Its staggering how people think money is worth anything without people and people live in a certain place with all of its rules and limitations. People are not invested in money. People are invested in places, in things, in a livelihood, a house, a car. Bitcoin, like all things that represent money, is not worth a thing until you withdraw it and use it to trade it into something else. We don't earn our salaries in Bitcoin, so the only way more of it enters the market is through mining. It cannot escape that loop really, until people create Bitcoin Country with its own Bitcoin-currency to pay out salaries.
> 
> That is why national currencies are here to stay. Even if they fail completely, they'll still stay. Many coins have known hyperinflation and still survive to this day.
> 
> ...



in a way its a trap.. you cant get rid of it because as you say you lose profit along the way... i am lucky in the sense i have enough fiat and dont need to sell crypto to get buy on..

trog


----------



## Vayra86 (Feb 10, 2021)

trog100 said:


> in a way its a trap.. you cant get rid of it because as you say you lose profit along the way... i am lucky in the sense i have enough fiat and dont need to sell crypto to get buy on..
> 
> trog


Not in a way - it really is a trap. Its a self-defeating principle, a paradox if you will. This is why I never trusted it from the get-go. It is based on the wrong things. Mining something out of nothing can only serve to siphon the real economy dry to make a few whales very rich, and then possibly and probably very poor again. That is the hidden bill. It is the actual value of Bitcoin, all the work and power that went into it, is what Bitcoin represents. That bill gets paid by investing in it from the real economy. Its why you can't buy a GPU.

So, the only way to 'have crypto' is by not doing it with Bitcoin, but with its technology, to support and use actual currencies. That is what those ICOs in part try to paint for us. A picture that there is an actual market that is more stable and capable of carrying an economy in the real world. All of them have shown not to be such a thing, they just move up and down along with the rest. They're not linked to the real world - they're linked to Bitcoin.

Another way to phrase this problem is: 'What mathematical problem does mining actually solve'

There is none.


----------



## mouacyk (Feb 10, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Another way to phrase this problem is: 'What mathematical problem does mining actually solve'
> 
> There is none.


The proof of work blockchains are exactly that.  It's a number guessing competition -- the first one to get guess the right number, based on a set condition wins while all the other guessing work is discarded.  Unfortunately most coins use proof of work.

ETH is moving away to proof-of-stake to eliminate the wastefulness of work.  I would like to see other coins go that route as well.  Literally, *put your money where your mouth is*, if you believe it so much.


----------



## Vario (Feb 10, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> and what is an, amateur environmentalist, is that another made up word.


Very aggressive with your use of "another"... it is my attempt at expressing that I am concerned about the planet as we all should be, but I am not a "tree hugger".  I have bigger issues with the carbon cost of bitcoin than I do of expensive pc gaming.  I don't game much these days and when I do it is games that my 1060 can handle easily.  As a rejoinder, I could rightly criticize you for the endless bragging about your boat, which most of us probably do not care much about nor do most people attribute boat ownership to be much of a status object.

Furthermore, generating pollution to produce a "currency" used by the blackmarket is just overall a net negative for the world.  As an example, the local hospitals and the city itself have been hit with ransomware attacks with the expectation of payment in crypto, if there was no promise of anonymous payment, this type of crime would occur less often.  I don't see very many legitimate uses outside of crime, gambling, or pump and dump schemes.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 11, 2021)

i can maybe except a lot of the negative things being said about bitcoin but i would love someone to tell me how printing trillions out of thin air is good for an economy or the environment..

bitcoin just like gold sucks money out of an economy.. money spent on bitcoin or gold is dead money it ceases to play a part in an economy.. its pretty much a form of saving..  a nest egg put away for the future..

spent spend spend and here is some freshly created helicopter "money" to help you along the way.. i aint so sure about..

trog


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 11, 2021)

Vario said:


> Very aggressive with your use of "another"... it is my attempt at expressing that I am concerned about the planet as we all should be, but I am not a "tree hugger".  I have bigger issues with the carbon cost of bitcoin than I do of expensive pc gaming.  I don't game much these days and when I do it is games that my 1060 can handle easily.  As a rejoinder, I could rightly criticize you for the endless bragging about your boat, which most of us probably do not care much about nor do most people attribute boat ownership to be much of a status object.
> 
> Furthermore, generating pollution to produce a "currency" used by the blackmarket is just overall a net negative for the world.  As an example, the local hospitals and the city itself have been hit with ransomware attacks with the expectation of payment in crypto, if there was no promise of anonymous payment, this type of crime would occur less often.  I don't see very many legitimate uses outside of crime, gambling, or pump and dump schemes.


There is nothing wrong with owning a sailboat, I travel with the wind. Its how that young girl greta thunberg traveled back to Europe over a year ago. I don't care what people think about sailboat ownership, its a dream of my to own one and go sailing.
Any currency can be used for the black market, the USD is the most used currency for the black market. Let's make the USD illegal.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> There is nothing wrong with owning a sailboat, I travel with the wind. Its how that young girl greta thunberg traveled back to Europe over a year ago. I don't care what people think about sailboat ownership, its a dream of my tobown one and go sailing.
> Any currency can be used for the black market, the USD is not most used currency for the black market. Let's make the USD illegal.



the difference is that ransomware on hospitals, schools, utility companies etc can't be done with cash, or at least not in the same brazen amount as cryptocurrency allows.



trog100 said:


> i can maybe except a lot of the negative things being said about bitcoin but i would love someone to tell me how printing trillions out of thin air is good for an economy or the environment..
> 
> bitcoin just like gold sucks money out of an economy.. money spent on bitcoin or gold is dead money it ceases to play a part in an economy.. its pretty much a form of saving..  a nest egg put away for the future..
> 
> ...



they do have limits in how much they print, otherwise Bernie would be convincing them to print 10 trillion right now. lol  Japan is in more debt per capita than any other country in world, USA isn't even close to being in as much debt as them per capita. - and Japan has been this way for decades and nothing bad has really come of it.  there is a tipping point of course. and Japan doesn't go over that tipping point.

I think inflation is occurring though, once inflation gets too bad - fiat will correct itself and the dollar will get stronger again, its a constant balancing act, right now Covid messed up that balancing act, but I think this is the last bill we will see giving handouts. I fully expect pfizer and moderna vaccine to get us all back to normal by start of Fall 2021. I am surprised government hasn't offered these two companies $ to massively expand though, its pretty clear these are the two vaccines the entire world needs... so yeah the fact countries are spending their money on dumb crap, instead of tripling up on these two vaccines with new facilities producing them around the clock is a little baffling to me.


----------



## yotano211 (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> the difference is that ransomware on hospitals, schools, utility companies etc can't be done with cash, or at least not in the same brazen amount as cryptocurrency allows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I once read that most of Japan's debt it owned locally unlike the US debt where its owned internationally. I don't know if it makes a difference but I'll try to find the article. Read it many years ago.


----------



## trog100 (Feb 11, 2021)

most of the free money so far lynx has gone into the hands of the rich.. as for inflation.. why do you think the stock market keep showing record highs.. the money moves from the hands of the rich into the stock markets.. oddly the stock market it one place where high inflation is considered good.. he he..

when the free money gets given to the poor to try and stop the coming social unrest they will simply spend it.. that is when real world inflation will kick in..

the bottom line being.. give a government the ability to print money and they will.. they will print in ever increasing amounts until it all blows up in there face.. 

you may think your government is in control of the situation but take my word for it they are not.. 

trog



yotano211 said:


> I once read that most of Japan's debt it owned locally unlike the US debt where its owned internationally. I don't know if it makes a difference but I'll try to find the article. Read it many years ago.



japan is not the USA.. most of japans debt is owed to itself and the japanese are careful with their money.. they save it as opposed to spending it..

trog


----------



## phill (Feb 11, 2021)

trog100 said:


> the UK ebay going price for a 3080 seems to be £1400 quid phil.. which makes the £1045 i paid for one three weeks or so back a bargain.. it also makes the rrp price a joke..
> 
> i recon a 3080 would be making around $10-11 dollars a day right now.. in one year that would be about £4000 dollars..
> 
> ...


It's horrendous money for a card that's RRP is about 650 to 700 quid...  But then I suppose looking at some of the prices for the 3090's they are an even bigger joke..  I've seen some up for £4000..  I mean who or what would anyone spend that on a £1500 or so card??

The lack of graphics cards around us and the worlds lost its mind...  Maybe that could be another meme or something later....


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> the difference is that ransomware on hospitals, schools, utility companies etc can't be done with cash, or at least not in the same brazen amount as cryptocurrency allows.


These are issues with the current implementation more than the tech though.  Requiring one to register a name to a bitcoin account would solve all of that, while stopping short of blanket illegalization, which I view as overreach.

Would it be popular with the current crypto-anarchy crowd?  No.  But some parts of "anarchy" have to go if you want to go mainstream, for frick sake.



Vayra86 said:


> Its staggering how people think money is worth anything without people and people live in a certain place with all of its rules and limitations. People are not invested in money. People are invested in places, in things, in a livelihood, a house, a car. Bitcoin, like all things that represent money, is not worth a thing until you withdraw it and use it to trade it into something else.


I know this is going to blow your mind, but untrue.  You can even pay your government taxes in bitcoin in some jurisdictions.  It's literally legal tender in some places.  It's not some abstract thing that outright has to be traded...  certainly not everywhere.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

trog100 said:


> japan is not the USA.. most of japans debt is owed to itself and the japanese are careful with their money.. they save it as opposed to spending it..
> 
> trog



isn't that even worse though? USA relies on its reputation they WILL pay you back if you buy our bonds etc. Japan just literally self-printed their own debt with no accountability.  and people are still buying our bonds and such for the loans - if anything Japan can't print anymore money but we still have reputation otherwise they would not be buying our debt.


R-T-B said:


> These are issues with the current implementation more than the tech though.  Requiring one to register a name to a bitcoin account would solve all of that, while stopping short of blanket illegalization, which I view as overreach.
> 
> Would it be popular with the current crypto-anarchy crowd?  No.  But some parts of "anarchy" have to go if you want to go mainstream, for frick sake.



it would not stop this at all, bitcoin gets "laundered" through anon currencies like Monero. and most of the ransomware is done requiring anon currencies like Monero which then get shuffled around is my guess to various other currencies. and we still need to consider the environment as well... BTC and other currencies wattage needs are only going to go up and up and up as blocks become harder and harder to mine. its a very bad snowball effect.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> it would not stop this at all, bitcoin gets "laundered" through anon currencies like Monero. and most of the ransomware is done requiring anon currencies like Monero which then get shuffled around is my guess to various other currencies.


So make anonymous currencies illegal.  Then say "you sent bitcoin to a Monero Exchange Address, Joe Schmo, you are under arrest."

My point is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> So make anonymous currencies illegal.  Then say "you sent bitcoin to a Monero Exchange Address, Joe Schmo, you are under arrest."
> 
> My point is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.



you didn't address the snowball effect, which imo is the greatest issue. Say what you want about China but they are moving green faster than anyone else, and yeah we are all in this climate thing together. humans are an amazing species, I used to think we were too small to cause that much change, but then when you start to think about our ingenuity etc... mountain tops cut off for quicker coal, etc... its kind of mind blowing really how much we have changed this world when you really dive deep into it all.


----------



## Vario (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> you didn't address the snowball effect, which imo is the greatest issue. Say what you want about China but they are moving green faster than anyone else, and yeah we are all in this climate thing together. humans are an amazing species, I used to think we were too small to cause that much change, but then when you start to think about our ingenuity etc... mountain tops cut off for quicker coal, etc... its kind of mind blowing really how much we have changed this world when you really dive deep into it all.


The Anthropocene, as it were.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> you didn't address the snowball effect,


Taxes.  We're already taxing it as earnable income, but it's underreported.  Enforce it.  Bring it to a razor edge of profitable, and watch the snowball melt.  People don't like putting in tons of labor for minimum wage, and running a large mining op does involve labor.  Tax it to that level.


----------



## Vario (Feb 11, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Taxes.  We're already taxing it as earnable income, but it's underreported.  Enforce it.  Bring it to a razor edge of profitable, and watch the snowball melt.


IRS has enough trouble enforcing taxation presently.


R-T-B said:


> So make anonymous currencies illegal.  Then say "you sent bitcoin to a Monero Exchange Address, Joe Schmo, you are under arrest."
> 
> My point is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


I would love to throw it out because it truly is worthless.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2021)

Vario said:


> IRS has enough trouble enforcing taxation presently.


Mostly due to a lack of real effort or push beyond "show us your files... no? ok."

Seriously, that's pretty much what happened when they tried with coinbase.  All their want ended in a settlement that mostly kept everyone earning under a fortune anonymous.  That is NOT enforcement.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Taxes.  We're already taxing it as earnable income, but it's underreported.  Enforce it.  Bring it to a razor edge of profitable, and watch the snowball melt.  People don't like putting in tons of labor for minimum wage, and running a large mining op does involve labor.  Tax it to that level.



ya, it needs taxed more, problem is will government spend that tax rightly on reducing cost of solar panels and tesla power cells for example. subsidizing stuff like that with a direct tax on bitcoin would be healthy imo. anything to speed up the adoption of solar is a good thing imo.


----------



## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> ya, it needs taxed more, problem is will government spend that tax rightly on reducing cost of solar panels and tesla power cells for example. subsidizing stuff like that with a direct tax on bitcoin would be healthy imo. anything to speed up the adoption of solar is a good thing imo.


I would be completely for that.

I just don't want to lose it's usecase as a useful money transmitter.  It has some use there.  But mining?  Nah.  I'm past that, and it can go to the few and far between IMO.


Vario said:


> I would love to throw it out because it truly is worthless.



To be worthless, something has to have no worth. That is clearly not true here. If nothing else, it has worth to me.  It's use case has just been perverted beyond recognition.


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I would be completely for that.
> 
> I just don't want to lose it's usecase as a useful money transmitter.  It has some use there.  But mining?  Nah.  I'm past that, and it can go to the few and far between IMO.
> 
> ...




the problem with government is they will say yeah lets legalize marijuana and tax it federally, or place an extra tax here on bitcoin, but then they never show transparency. there should be a website all USA citizens can go to, that shows you where the money generated ends up getting spent on, specifically tie items together like the bitcoin tax and solar panels, don't make it so that money goes to other places too. they make it complicated on purpose. it should be really simple imo. it all goes into this one account and that account is for solar panel subsidization, and if we meet are target goals and any money is left over we will re-vote on how to spend it in future.  it really should be that simple imo, but they love to complicate things and make it not transparent. really annoys me. lol  we all want the world to be a better place... but no one seems to have common sense anymore.









						United Airlines orders 200 vertical-takeoff electric airplanes
					

Startup Archer received investments from United Airlines and Stellantis.




					arstechnica.com
				




for example this article here... why is United taking our tax money for covid if it has excess to invest in RND like this... umm ok...


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## yotano211 (Feb 11, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> So make anonymous currencies illegal.  Then say "you sent bitcoin to a Monero Exchange Address, Joe Schmo, you are under arrest."
> 
> My point is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


You can sell the bathwater to gamers for $30. I can call it RTB BTC gamer bath water.

I'm taking orders now, accept all crypto coins, no fiat money.


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## dgianstefani (Feb 11, 2021)

Make fun of it all you want lol, it's steadily risen for 10 years, and will continue to do so. Mastercard just joined Visa in confirming they will accept payments in crypto this year.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

dgianstefani said:


> Make fun of it all you want lol, it's steadily risen for 10 years, and will continue to do so. Mastercard just joined Visa in confirming they will accept payments in crypto this year.



that's all well and good, but if the price stays stable between 40-50k permanently you will make no money from it. and it will have more taxes and fees (compared to regular visa/mastercard) etc. I think it's all saturated now, unless a big buyer like Apple comes in, but I don't see that happening. I think it will stay 40-50k range long term, and the only way to really make money off BTC is to mine ethereum and trade it, even then the fees, the fees at the exchanges, the taxes, the electricity costs, it almost becomes worthless before you actually buy something with that Crypto Visa or MC.   unless the bulls are right and it hits 100k someday, but I don't see that happening, the big buyers are done on their bull run for this year. Elon won't risk more than 1.5 billion and Apple doesn't seem interested after all.


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## Night (Feb 11, 2021)

Only way to get the GPU availability and pricing (if the shortage of chips stops) back to normal would be that AMD and Nvidia limit mining on the hardware level for the GPUs meant for gamers with little to no use in mining, and making another version that is designed for mining only. When the chip shortage ends I don't think we'll see any better availability and/or pricing that it already is, as long as bitcoin, etherium and such seem profitable to miners. They're just going to buy more and more GPUs while the value of cryptocurrencies increases. I think that's why there was such a high demand issue with Ampere and RDNA2 GPUs, because bitcoin started rising rapidly in the last few months. Though seeing AMD and Nvidia doing something for the gamers is highly unlikely, they're after profit anyway, sale is a sale, not that I condone them for this, any company would do the same.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 11, 2021)

I've checked prices out of curiosity locally and get this : a 3060ti is about 1000 euro (yes, 1000, that's not a typo) and a 570, a card that is what, 3-4 years old, is about 600 euro. It's by far the worst it has ever been.



Night said:


> Only way to get the GPU availability and pricing (if the shortage of chips stops) back to normal would be that AMD and Nvidia limit mining on the hardware level for the GPUs meant for gamers with little to no use in mining, and making another version that is designed for mining only.



First of all it's not really possible to restrict mining at the hardware level, it's just code that runs on the GPU, you can't block it.

Secondly not matter how you spin it this comes down to available wafers, even if you make special versions designated for mining they're still being built from the same pool of chips.


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## Space Lynx (Feb 11, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> a 570, a card that is what, 3-4 years old, is about 600 euro. It's by far the worst it has ever been.



I really regret selling my 580 last month for dirt cheap. lulz. could have traded it for a PS5 at this rate.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 11, 2021)

And they are all out of stock, obviously, I can only presume that miners did actually pay 600 euro for a 570, which is amazing.


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## Night (Feb 11, 2021)

Vya Domus said:


> First of all it's not really possible to restrict mining at the hardware level, it's just code that runs on the GPU, you can't block it.


It would be possible to make GPUs less effective in certain mathematical operations that may not be too important for normal use or gaming. But yes, I don't see AMD or Nvidia doing this.


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## Vya Domus (Feb 11, 2021)

Like I said, it doesn't work, if you make them slower for mining you'll make them slower over all. The algorithms are implemented using generic instructions, there is nothing special in them.

And on top of it, Nivida/AMD has no interest in solving this even if there was a solution.


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## trog100 (Feb 11, 2021)

supply and demand is real.. ebay is a means of true price discovery.. ebay prices are the real prices everything else is pretend..

the UK ebay going price for a 3080 gpu is around £1400 quid..  a 3060 close to 1200..  this is the real price and its what enough people are prepared to pay.. with a very limited supply "enough" can be a relatively small number of people..

the "enough" number is directly related to the availability number.. the two equal out and a real price is arrived at.. tis the way free markets work..

trog


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## R-T-B (Feb 11, 2021)

yotano211 said:


> You can sell the bathwater to gamers for $30. I can call it RTB BTC gamer bath water.
> 
> I'm taking orders now, accept all crypto coins, no fiat money.


Get out of my frogpond, you freak.


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