# Do you use Linux?



## Kissamies (Aug 18, 2022)

I do, though not in my desktops. But my laptops aren't gaming powerhouses, so I put Linux Mint for those by pure curiousity and well, I have nothing to complain. As I use those mostly for internet browsing, media playback and chatting in Discord, Linux does it fine.


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## outpt (Aug 18, 2022)

dual bootish more a curiosity thing really.


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## Kissamies (Aug 18, 2022)

outpt said:


> dual bootish more a curiosity thing really.


Depends on the machine, I'd say.


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## sam_86314 (Aug 18, 2022)

The funny thing is as of writing this, I'm preparing to image Manjaro KDE onto the boot drive for my Nostalgic PC (circa 2005) because Windows 7 is annoying. Hope it runs fine with 2GB of memory.

Obviously, my Steam Deck runs Linux, and I've determined that KDE is my favorite desktop environment.

I do want to switch to Linux at some point in the future, but all of my prior attempts have failed.


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## rethcirE (Aug 18, 2022)

Where's the "No" option?


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## Kissamies (Aug 18, 2022)

sam_86314 said:


> The funny thing is as of writing this, I'm preparing to image Manjaro KDE onto the boot drive for my Nostalgic PC (circa 2005) because Windows 7 is annoying. Hope it runs fine with 2GB of memory.
> 
> Obviously, my Steam Deck runs Linux, and I've determined that KDE is my favorite desktop environment.
> 
> I do want to switch to Linux at some point in the future, but all of my prior attempts have failed.


You have a Steam Deck? How it's been? 

And I know that Android = Linux, but I mean PC Linux in this thread.



rethcirE said:


> Where's the "No" option?


You don't need to vote then


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## sam_86314 (Aug 18, 2022)

Lenne said:


> You have a Steam Deck? How it's been?
> 
> And I know that Android = Linux, but I mean PC Linux in this thread.


Absolutely love it. I guess I happen to be exactly the target audience for it.

I love playing Dragon's Dogma, Skyrim SE, Minecraft Java, and whatever else on the go. It's also a decent media-consumption device.

I've also managed to get it to work based on my absolute hatred of DRM.







Apologies for derailing the thread.


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## Courier 6 (Aug 18, 2022)

not yet, but I just downloaded linux mint 21, I´m rebuilding an older pc just for that, I don't have any extra sata drives only IDE for now, it´s not finishied yet, need to do cleaning reinstalling fans, etc


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## Red_Machine (Aug 18, 2022)

I've tried several times over the last 15 years to get into it, but I'm just too entrenched in Windows.  At this point, I just tinker with old distros on one of my many legacy systems.


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## cvaldes (Aug 18, 2022)

Sadly there is no "Other" poll option so I did not vote.

I do use Linux but only as an embedded device OS; Linux as a desktop OS sucks. Right now Linux devices in my home that I'm aware of: a Raspberry Pi 4 running Libreelec/Kodi and a Nintendo Super NES Classic.

Devices I am not sure about are: DSL router, HP DeskJet printer, Roku Streaming Stick, Google Chromecast, Sony Blu-ray player.

Devices I know aren't running Linux: my Windows PCs, my Mac mini, various iOS/iPadOS devices, Nintendo Switch.

There's a Raspbian partition on my RPi4 only for updating firmware twice a year or so. That's the extent of my hands-on Linux usage these days.


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## INSTG8R (Aug 18, 2022)

Well funny thing…had an old HDD in an external I was successfully moving some old files I found on it. I remembered a file I lost through a PEBCAK a year or so ago, let’s call it my “Master Do” Well I found it and wouldn’t you know  it, it packed up.  
So I made a bootable Ubuntu amd crossed my fingers.  Unfortunately it was just too far gone BUT I really liked the look and feel, of Ubuntu. If didn’t use my PC purely for gaming I would no have problem using it as a daily driver.


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## johnspack (Aug 18, 2022)

Linux is my main OS.  I do have windows 10 as a dual boot,  but normally only use it once a week as an old game I like, the glide wrapper works best under windows.
Once wine can run that perfectly...  I will no longer have any need for windows.  Plus windows 11 asking you to sign in to do anything....  nope.


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## Solaris17 (Aug 18, 2022)

I run fleets of servers on linux. no gui SSH only. in production. Does that count? What about the VMs and ones in my cluster? 

ubuntu server
cent (before I migrated it)
alma
freebsd

I usually run ubuntu or openSUSE (my favorite) when im in need of a UI.


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## Chomiq (Aug 18, 2022)

No option for "No"?


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## ThrashZone (Aug 18, 2022)

Hi,
Second tour of mint cinnamon not sure it's dual boot technically since I disconnect all other os's and storage drives first and run linux by it's self.
First tour was way back to 17.3 now trying 20.1
Not much has changed 20.2 buggy added some stuff for streaming t.v and some movies sites from different areas
Not much worth watching though it's best to just go to the streaming site rather than messing with linux streaming interface app or what ever they call it
But ultimately went back to 20.1 and haven't gone back to 20.2 yet I'll give it another 6 months...


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## maxx2575 (Aug 18, 2022)

I use linux mint on one of my old office computers that has an A4-5000 apu as a bed-side media player because it's too slow for anything else.


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## P4-630 (Aug 18, 2022)

> *Do you use Linux?*



No.


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## qubit (Aug 18, 2022)

There should be a No option. I never use it.


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## Wirko (Aug 18, 2022)

Solaris17 said:


> I run fleets of servers on linux.


There really should be another checkmark in the poll: "on servers that I manage"


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 18, 2022)

Since the question is, "_Do you use Linux?_" there absolutely should be a "No" option. Otherwise, change the question to, "_Linux users, how do you use Linux?_"


Lenne said:


> You don't need to vote then


True but then it hardly gives a good picture of what is happening.

This is like asking the students in the school cafeteria, "_Do you like oranges?_" then leaving the option "No" off the list. 



outpt said:


> dual bootish more a curiosity thing really.





Lenne said:


> Depends on the machine, I'd say.


Why would it depend on the machine? It seems to me it totally depends on the needs (and/or wants) of the user.  

Oh, and Android ≠ Linux.


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## AnotherReader (Aug 18, 2022)

As you can see in my system specs, I dual boot Windows 10 and Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on my newest desktop. The smallest SSD in my system is dedicated to Ubuntu. While I have played around with Linux since the late 90s, I only started dual booting with it in 2020 due to problems that I thought were due to my Vega 64. After replacing my motherboard, all problems disappeared and Windows is perfectly stable now. Now, I occasionally use Ubuntu while using Windows more frequently. I think Linux is fine as a desktop OS for most things, but if you want to run non-Steam games, it is a pain.


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## puma99dk| (Aug 18, 2022)

On my personal gaming rig no, on my laptop I have done a Pop! OS usb test but I can't get use to run Linux even tried Ubuntu a long time ago.

But at work yes when I do servers most of them are Linux only some are Windows Servers.


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## Kissamies (Aug 18, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Since the question is, "_Do you use Linux?_" there absolutely should be a "No" option. Otherwise, change the question to, "_Linux users, how do you use Linux?_"
> 
> True but then it hardly gives a good picture of what is happening.
> 
> ...


Forgive me. I count Android as Linux as well.


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 18, 2022)

Lenne said:


> Forgive me. I count Android as Linux as well.


Many do. But that is like saying AMD = Intel because they share much of the same instruction set. 

If you are going to claim Android = Linux, then it seems to me you need yet another poll option (in addition to "No") that says, "_Yes - in my Android phone or tablet._"


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## Kissamies (Aug 18, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Many do. But that is like saying AMD = Intel because they share much of the same instruction set.
> 
> If you are going to claim Android = Linux, then it seems to me you need yet another poll option (in addition to "No") that says, "_Yes - in my Android phone or tablet._"


Naah. If you've had AMD CPU in your 8088-486 rig and if the CPU is from AMD, then it's from AMD.

Can a moderator  @tabascosauz edit this poll a little? Just put answers

-No
-In form of Android with my smartphone

as answers?


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## AnotherReader (Aug 18, 2022)

I don't think Android can be counted as Linux. Just using the kernel isn't enough. Bill's link, a few posts above, makes a convincing argument, especially this part :


> You cannot run Linux apps on Android — and vice versa​


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## Bill_Bright (Aug 18, 2022)

Lenne said:


> Naah. If you've had AMD CPU in your 8088-486 rig and if the CPU is from AMD, then it's from AMD.


"From AMD"? Where it's from is immaterial. The instruction set is code and AMD and Intel both share a lot of common code in their instruction set. Does that make AMD and Intel equal? No. And they even run the same apps!


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## Solaris17 (Aug 18, 2022)

Lenne said:


> Naah. If you've had AMD CPU in your 8088-486 rig and if the CPU is from AMD, then it's from AMD.
> 
> Can a moderator  @tabascosauz edit this poll a little? Just put answers
> 
> ...



Is this what you want?


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## Kissamies (Aug 18, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> "From AMD"? Where it's from is immaterial. The instruction set is code and AMD and Intel both share a lot of common code in their instruction set. Does that make AMD and Intel equal? No. And they even run the same apps!


I don't want that my thread goes to arguing.



Solaris17 said:


> Is this what you want?


If you can add those, it's fine.


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## T3RM1N4L D0GM4 (Aug 18, 2022)

Mini-pc HP: dual boot Ubuntu LTS 22.04.1 + Win 11 Pro
Emergency mini-pc: Opensuse Leaf 15.4
If only there were native DRM support for our beloved streaming services (no hd support :-\ ) ...


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## gffermari (Aug 18, 2022)

Years ago in the university, I tried suse.
Now I have linux mint in an old laptop.
For general use it doesn’t make any difference to me.


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## Shihab (Aug 18, 2022)

Fedora 36 on the main rig. Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on the work/study laptop.
[Insert an obligatory rant about Nvidia and Wayland here]


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## caroline! (Aug 19, 2022)

*ahem*
I use Arch btw

Been using it for years now, got tired of Windows tantrums because of a broken update, and of course the spyware included in 10 base edition, LTSC seems to be free of it but still.
I made Arch run the few games I play so I don't even need the dual boot anymore.


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## Easy Rhino (Aug 19, 2022)

yes


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## Selaya (Aug 21, 2022)

missing the





> [x] on all the fucking remote (web-)servers im responsible for


option


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## phanbuey (Aug 21, 2022)

I actually run an ubuntu vm on virtualbox for development and cloud ssh/docker testing/ etc. it works awesome.  I used to use WSL 2 for windows but it's too much hassle for networking docker clusters and it's not exactly the same as the stuff running in the cloud so not as good for testing on.


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## Ja.KooLit (Aug 22, 2022)

Yes - Arch is my main and remains my favorite. Just finish setting up Gentoo and been using for a week. I have also Fedora. I still have Windows 11 on other drive in case there are games which I need to compare performance with. Last time I boot windows though is like months ago


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## birdie (Aug 22, 2022)

My main OS has been Linux (Redhat then Fedora) since the late 90s but I game exclusively under Windows 10. Linux is just nowhere near Windows in terms of gaming features.

Android is _not_ Linux and I'm not sure what it's doing in this poll. The OP must be high on Linux.


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## bug (Aug 22, 2022)

rethcirE said:


> Where's the "No" option?


You can only vote "No" if you don't have an Android phone. Or a router 

Me, I'm a software developer, I'm most at home with Linux. Needing up-to-date packages for mostly anything, I'm on Arch. But whatever your use case, there's a distro for you out there.



birdie said:


> Android is _not_ Linux and I'm not sure what it's doing in this poll. The OP must be high on Linux.


Android is most definitely Linux. Linux is not a distro, it's a kernel (+drivers). Android uses that kernel. Sure, it's a modified version, but who doesn't  keep an out-of-tree set of patches for their Linux kernel anyway?


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## birdie (Aug 22, 2022)

bug said:


> Android is most definitely Linux. Linux is not a distro, it's a kernel (+drivers). Android uses that kernel. Sure, it's a modified version, but who doesn't  keep an out-of-tree set of patches for their Linux kernel anyway?


This poll does _not_ have the word "kernel" anywhere in its title or description. The kernel alone doesn't make Android Linux.

99% of people out there think of/imply Linux _distros_ when they talk about Linux. Juggling with words, terms, your understanding, purity will not change that. Secondly, the Linux kernel in Android is replaceable and will most likely be replaced with Zircon eventually. Thirdly, the kernel alone is 100% useless. It needs userspace and Android userspace has almost nothing in common with your Ubuntu (aside from using certain open source libraries, e.g. freetype, but freetype is also used by FreeBSD and even HaikuOS - no one calls them Linux). Fourthly, there's this guy, Richard Stallman, you may have heard about him, he outright refuses to call Android Linux: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/android-and-users-freedom.en.html Lastly, Windows 10/11 can run/include Linux components in a form of WSL. Shall we call Windows 10/11 Linux? No way on earth.


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## MrDweezil (Aug 22, 2022)

Not at home, but its what I run on my work laptop.


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## bug (Aug 22, 2022)

birdie said:


> This poll does _not_ have the word "kernel" anywhere in its title or description. The kernel alone doesn't make Android Linux.


I can easily turn this around and say "this poll does _not_ have the word "distro" anywhere in its title or description".

Leaving our own understanding of what Linux is (or isn't) aside, let's see what Wikipedia has to say about it:


> *Linux* (/ˈliːnʊks/ (
> 
> listen) _LEE-nuuks_ or /ˈlɪnʊks/ _LIN-uuks_)[11] is a family of open-source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel,[12] an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991, by Linus Torvalds.[13][14][15] Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution.



A clear separation between "Linux" and "Linux distro", if you ask me.


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## ERazer (Aug 22, 2022)

No other option? I run Linux as VM , I use arch, mint, and ubuntu servers.


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## GreiverBlade (Aug 22, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Oh, and Android ≠ Linux.


well you link an open debat that give no definitive answer and mention that the definite answer is per person and depend on how you see it ... 

thus for me 
"However, if your definition of a Linux distro is an operating system that’s based on the Linux kernel, then Android _is_ a Linux distro. It may be an unusual, highly-specialized distro, but it’s every bit as much of a distro as Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, and any other operating system that’s based on the Linux kernel." 

yes, it is  

anyhow, voted secondary PC (as i intend to install various distro on my SFFHTPCHARG!(tm) ) tinkering since i delved in Linux distros since the late 90s early 2000s (i still have a micro application beginner book which came with Red Hat iirc 5.2 or 4.4  ) and  since my point of view is of the 3rd choice  well .... tablet and smartphone ...


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## SchumannFrequency (Aug 31, 2022)

I have been using FreeBSD as my daily driver on the desktop for several years now. I have to say that the stability has been unreal.
It also has a lot of software, good performance and is easy to use once installed. The sound quality is better than what you get on windows with an expensive sound card, I use the bit-perfect mode that works in all audio apps.

I also have a mediaBOOK 14, and it currently contains Oracle Linux.

Then there's an old 12 year old laptop from my dad that I put Void Linux + XFCE on. For windows10 it takes around 140 seconds to boot, but thanks to Void Linux it only takes 47 seconds. Shutdown takes 4 seconds, which is often faster than some high-end Windows PCs. File manager, opening photos, PDFs is instant, and is faster than the fairly new Lenovo windows11 desktop PC that my father now has. That's just bizarre and that's why I find it weird that Void Linux isn't more popular. The system starts very quickly and also stops very quickly. And most importantly, the XFCE UI is remarkably responsive to that old hardware. Now if it gets the speed optimizations of Clear Linux for the browser it would be pure perfection in terms of performance.


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## bug (Aug 31, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> I have been using FreeBSD as my daily driver on the desktop for several years now. I have to say that the stability has been unreal.
> It also has a lot of software, good performance and is easy to use once installed. The sound quality is better than what you get on windows with an expensive sound card, I use the bit-perfect mode that works in all audio apps.


Ok, I have to nitpick: *BSD are *nix (Unix variants), not really Linux


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## SchumannFrequency (Aug 31, 2022)

GreiverBlade said:


> well you link an open debat that give no definitive answer and mention that the definite answer is per person and depend on how you see it ...


Linux (/ˈliːnʊks/ (listen) LEE-nuuks or /ˈlɪnʊks/ LIN-uuks)[11] is a family of open-source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel.

The only condition is that it must use the Linux kernel. It is 100% correct to claim that Android is as hard 'Linux' as Void Linux, Oracle Linux, Alpine Linux, Clear Linux, Yocto Project, ChromeOS, etc.


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## theFOoL (Sep 29, 2022)

Has anyone tried Linuxfx? 

Linuxfx is a Themed Ubuntu based KDE Plasma environment. I've dealt with it before but I can't remember and looking forward to seeing it again


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 29, 2022)

Tried it loads and forced to use it occasionally but it's learning curve isn't suiting mine still, I'm still trying though.


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## theFOoL (Sep 29, 2022)

Yeah.  I loaded it and installing. Hmm the UI isn't perfect but it'll do "I guess"


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## Aquinus (Sep 29, 2022)

I use a Mac as my daily driver for most things these days, but everything I interact with runs in Linux. My machine for gaming runs Ubuntu. My daughter's PC for school runs Kubuntu. The only Windows machine the house is my wife's laptop.


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## bug (Sep 29, 2022)

Aquinus said:


> I use a Mac as my daily driver for most things these days, but everything I interact with runs in Linux. My machine for gaming runs Ubuntu. My daughter's PC for school runs Kubuntu. The only Windows machine the house is my wife's laptop.


Just a small hint, but back when I was using it, Kubuntu was about the worst KDE distro. Neon (also Ubuntu based, albeit paired with up-to-date Qt and KDE is miles better).


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## Eskimonster (Sep 30, 2022)

When windows 10 is running out of support , i will. i wont bend my knee to windows 11 subscription hell.


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## Shihab (Sep 30, 2022)

Switched to Ubuntu 22.04 LTS on my main desktop a month ago. Something went wrong with the Fedora installation, the Nvidia driver update buggered something out. I was already annoyed by the lack of suspend/hibernate functionality (due to NV drivers), and this was the last straw.
Still must use x11 to get suspend working. -_-



Eskimonster said:


> When windows 10 is running out of support , i will. i wont bend my knee to windows 11 subscription hell.


You'll just end up going back to Windows.
If you plan to jump to linux as a main platform, you'd better start getting used to it starting now.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

Lenne said:


> -In form of Android with my smartphone


Glad you added that one. Just joining in the thread.

I use Mint XFCE as a goto version of Linux. If I were to ditch Windows entirely, that would be where I settle. I also use the LineageOS 14.1 version of  Android X86 as a primary OS for one of my Dell laptops.



Eskimonster said:


> i wont bend my knee to windows 11 subscription hell.


You don't have to. Windows 11 can be roped in just like Windows 10. It just takes a bit of know-how. If you want to know more, hit up the Windows 11 General discussion thread. I like 11 much more than 10 and would sooner go back to Windows 7 than to 10. If you know me, you know I don't make statements like that lightly.


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## R-T-B (Sep 30, 2022)

I would use it as my primary OS if they ever got HDR working right.  They don't have it at all to date ...


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

Bill_Bright said:


> Oh, and Android ≠ Linux.


On this point, there is more fine-grained nuance than just saying yes or no. In reality, Android uses the Linux kernel recompiled for ARM, generally. Anything that can generally run on Linux can be easily converted over to Android with minimal effort and vice-verse. To say that Android is not Linux is a loaded statement. To say Android is a Linux based distro is more accurate and correct.

Your own citation states the case well;


> 2. There’s no universally accepted definition of what makes a piece of software _Linux_.



However, some of the conclusions made by that article are dubious at best. For example..


> Android’s ‘open source’ status is up for debate


No it isn't. Anyone can grab the AOSP code and do whatever they want with it and this has always been true. What is not open source is the Google services, which are added on to the AOSP code.



AnotherReader said:


> I don't think Android can be counted as Linux. Just using the kernel isn't enough. Bill's link, a few posts above, makes a convincing argument, especially this part :


Not directly, but then again, Linux programs made for one distro of Linux often can not run on another. That is why compiling from source is a frequently practiced activity by seasoned Linux users. However, Android apps can and have been ported to Linux and Linux programs ported to Android. It's an involved but not difficult task.

Android absolutely is a code compatible distribution of Linux. This is fact, not opinion.



Lenne said:


> I don't want that my thread goes to arguing.


Ah, sorry. I'll shut up.


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## Dr. Dro (Sep 30, 2022)

Dual-booting Fedora 36 and Windows 11. Though, the experience with Fedora and the RTX 3090 is less than pleasant. The NVIDIA drivers for Linux are absolutely terrible and a gigantic pain. Also run Fedora 36 on my home server. Great OS.


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## bug (Sep 30, 2022)

Shihab said:


> Switched to Ubuntu 22.04 LTS on my main desktop a month ago. Something went wrong with the Fedora installation, the Nvidia driver update buggered something out. I was already annoyed by the lack of suspend/hibernate functionality (due to NV drivers), and this was the last straw.
> Still must use x11 to get suspend working. -_-


I wonder if you were bitten by indirect branch tracking (IBT), which was enabled in 5.18. It's about Intel CPUs, your specs say you're on AMD, but idk if they're up to date. If that's the case, you'll have the same problem again, once Ubuntu updates its kernel. Fortunately, the fix is as simple as passing ibt=off to the kernel. Not ideal, from a security point of view, but better than a system that won't boot.


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## Wirko (Sep 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I use Mint XFCE as a goto version of Linux. If I were to ditch Windows entirely, that would be where I settle. I also use the LineageOS 14.1 version of Android X86 as a primary OS for one of my Dell laptops.


Why did you choose Lineage over a[nother] Linux distro? Is that a laptop with a touch screen by chance, and you found the UI better suited to it?


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

Wirko said:


> Why did you choose Lineage over a[nother] Linux distro? Is that a laptop with a touch screen by chance, and you found the UI better suited to it?


Nope. I like the Android app ecosystem better than the Linux ecosystem as a daily driver for my needs on that system. I have another Dell laptop that has Mint XFCE as an exclusive OS, which I'm typing this comment on.


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## Shihab (Sep 30, 2022)

bug said:


> I wonder if you were bitten by indirect branch tracking (IBT), which was enabled in 5.18. It's about Intel CPUs, your specs say you're on AMD, but idk if they're up to date. If that's the case, you'll have the same problem again, once Ubuntu updates its kernel. Fortunately, the fix is as simple as passing ibt=off to the kernel. Not ideal, from a security point of view, but better than a system that won't boot.


I'm sure it was a graphics driver's fault. Some conflict during the update (IIRC) that left the system in a messed up state. Partially fixed with manual removal then reinstall. Really missed the DDU+Safe mode combo and Windows automatic driver fallback back then  .
Current machine is indeed on AMD.


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## bug (Sep 30, 2022)

Shihab said:


> I'm sure it was a graphics driver's fault. Some conflict during the update (IIRC) that left the system in a messed up state. Partially fixed with manual removal then reinstall. Really missed the DDU+Safe mode combo and Windows automatic driver fallback back then  .
> Current machine is indeed on AMD.


I'm pretty sure each Linux distro has a safe mode by now, you could have used that. Safe mode boots just the kernel and not much else, you can use that to repair pretty much everything. And to guard against the kernel itself becoming non-bootable, you can install an LTS kernel as a backup.

But the deed is done now, it's good you got your system back in working shape.


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## Shihab (Sep 30, 2022)

bug said:


> I'm pretty sure each Linux distro has a safe mode by now, you could have used that. Safe mode boots just the kernel and not much else, you can use that to repair pretty much everything.


Indeed, a command-line only mode is as "safe" as it gets, but it's not really as convenient as a gui mode with minimalist drivers like the way Windows does it. It would've been great if there was a quick, built-in method to switch to a cut down version of nouveau with a basic wm that doesn't involve editing launch params and system configs.
But I suppose when you're on 'nix, the cli is unavoidable. 



bug said:


> And to guard against the kernel itself becoming non-bootable, you can install an LTS kernel as a backup.


Fedora keeps two previous kernels installed by default for these cases. Although tbh I find it annoying. Clutters GRUB and especially annoying when dual booting.


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## bug (Sep 30, 2022)

Shihab said:


> Indeed, a command-line only mode is as "safe" as it gets, but it's not really as convenient as a gui mode with minimalist drivers like the way Windows does it. It would've been great if there was a quick, built-in method to switch to a cut down version of nouveau with a basic wm that doesn't involve editing launch params and system configs.
> But I suppose when you're on 'nix, the cli is unavoidable.


CLI is the better idea, for those cases when you absolutely cannot get the graphics subsystem up at all. From the CLI, you can load drivers and even start X, if needed. But I've never needed that, whenever I went into safe mode, all I needed was to trigger some package repair or reinstall something. A GUI wasn't really needed.


Shihab said:


> Fedora keeps two previous kernels installed by default for these cases. Although tbh I find it annoying. Clutters GRUB and especially annoying when dual booting.


Yeah, it feels cluttery and annoying. Until you need that other kernel


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## Lei (Sep 30, 2022)

I used to cheer about Linux and use Debian/Ubuntu around 2010. And an OS from Sun microsystems which I don't remember the name of .... Solaris

But, no, now I only use Windows and want full functionality. I think what matters is the _software _we use not the operating system. and a good operating system is the one that runs every software. 
I mean it was crazy to keep using wine on linux. 
Although a linux flash live drive is good when you can't boot into windows and want to backup those documents that are out of reach on C drive. 

Do the best with your time. Don't tinker around proving an OS is good but is not receiving the attention it deserves. 

I'm also against using GIMP and Blender. When I went for job interview, they flat out said : We don't use Blender. 
Learning Blender is 20% useful and 80% ruining your future. Although it's free, it makes you poor in the long run while industry standards like Maya and Photoshop fill your pocket much better than free/opensource software.

It is also hard to switch from Blender to Maya. it's not a software you can learn within a month or so. So although it gives you 3d modeling experience, switching to another software is really breaking hardcore habits. 
Years ago I used to say : if blender is a horsepower, then Maya is a herd of 100 horses. Just Quad-draw in Maya seems like a tool blender will have in 2030 

Life is too short for wasting time on becoming a fan of opensource. Sorry, I understand the passion and hardwork they dedicate for these stuff, but I push them away. Just kick the developers in the bosom and dismiss them.


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## bug (Sep 30, 2022)

@Lei I absolutely agree that working software trumps everything else. But since I'm a software developer, the platform that runs everything I need happens to be Linux (could be macOS as well, but I'm not paying the Apple tax). For some time, I had your experience in reverse: employer was doing software that was deployed on Linux, but wanted development to happen on Windows. So I would run most things in a VM and whatnot. Pretty crappy. These days, it's more about deploying in the cloud, but I still think Linux is the best dev platform.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 30, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> I don't think Android can be counted as Linux. Just using the kernel isn't enough. Bill's link, a few posts above, makes a convincing argument, especially this part :


To be fair, it totally can, it's just android does not give you the console to do so.  You can do this with root, though.


----------



## Lei (Sep 30, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> I don't think Android can be counted as Linux. Just using the kernel isn't enough. Bill's link, a few posts above, makes a convincing argument, especially this part :


the guys who made linux are finally happy their kernel is so widely used
Larry Ellison said :
"_When you write a program for Android, you use the Oracle Java tools for everything and at the very end, you push a button and say convert this"_

I'm sure Linux developers don't like you saying android is not their baby.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

Lei said:


> I think what matters is the _software _we use not the operating system


While that's true, if the OS is lackluster or repulsive, the software can not shine.



R-T-B said:


> To be fair, it totally can, it's just android does not give you the console to do so.


Not true. Any Android device can access and use the terminal.


R-T-B said:


> You can do this with root, though.


It can be done with or without root, but root is more useful.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> While that's true, if the OS is lackluster or repulsive, the software can not shine.
> 
> 
> Not true. Any Android device can access and use the terminal.
> ...


I suppose you are correct, it's just you are pretty limited in tools without root.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I suppose you are correct, it's just you are pretty limited in tools without root.


True, but that's not enough to consider it "not Linux".


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 30, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> True, but that's not enough to consider it "not Linux".


I'm pretty strict in my definition, in that if it uses the Linux kernel, it's linux.

No the layman does not use this definition, but the kernel authors of linux do, and that's who I'd trust.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I'm pretty strict in my definition, in that if it uses the Linux kernel, it's linux.


Agreed.


R-T-B said:


> but the kernel authors of linux do, and that's who I'd trust.


True, Linus himself has often referred to Android as a Linux distro. In my estimation, if the creator of Linux refers to something as a Linux distro, it's a Linux distro, end of discussion.


----------



## Wirko (Sep 30, 2022)

My explanation of why some people think Android is not Linux.

I've set up the OS myself and hold the keys to the admin account -> it is Linux
I bought it with the OS preinstalled and locked down -> it isn't Linux


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 30, 2022)

Wirko said:


> I've set up the OS myself and hold the keys to the admin account -> it is Linux
> I bought it with the OS preinstalled and locked down -> it isn't Linux


That's your personal perspective and while it might be true for you personally, but that is not what a professional viewpoint is based on.


----------



## Lei (Sep 30, 2022)

Wirko said:


> My explanation of why some people think Android is not Linux.
> 
> I've set up the OS myself and hold the keys to the admin account -> it is Linux
> I bought it with the OS preinstalled and locked down -> it isn't Linux


Why Huawei can't use android?
if it's linux, if it's opensource, then how can one big fat guy say others shouldn't use it?


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 30, 2022)

Lei said:


> Why Huawei can't use android?
> if it's linux, if it's opensource, then how can one big fat guy say others shouldn't use it?


They can use it.  They can't use any of the propietary bits that make it "google" though (The play store etc)


----------



## argon (Sep 30, 2022)

I used to play on PC with my old build (i5-4690k+r9-290x) I had the 290x from the beginning back in 2014 (before a 6950) then sold it for buying ps5, lucky I got it at launch and not from scalper, I like console gaming its so easy and relaxing but I still use m/k on fps games.
Recently I'm getting again into pc, I need a pc in my house for some things even if smartphone+console was ok, but so, few month ago I cannot stand anymore and I bought a Pentium Alder Lake dual core g6900 for 50€ also bought a 200€ case but its another story xD For gaming still using my ps5 so I didn't need Windows anymore, Firstly I got Debian but lately I had a lot of problems and the lack of AUR wasn't good. So I got Arch Linux, imho the best distro also it got installed in 10minutes with archinstall I use openbox +tint2 its my way to go. When I was young I used to install linux on my pc, It was hard but my dreams back in the days was arch linux you didn't had "archinstall" in that and it was hard as hell it was 2008/2009 I still have pages of me writing down the all arch wiki on paper (i didn't had a good smartphone for sure) and openbox was the way to go. more lately more the years passed I got into halo2 and Ut back in the day with friends so I had to use Windows and didn't got back to use linux Anymore till this summer.
TLDR yes i use arch linux on my main pc because I don't game anymore on pc but use PS5


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Oct 1, 2022)

I use Linux on the media pc in the living room. The main pc has two spectate drives, one Linux and one windows, because MS keeps royally screwing with UEFI boot partitions…

I swear if someone ever gets EAC working on proton without game dev input I’m ditching windows 11.


bug said:


> CLI is the better idea, for those cases when you absolutely cannot get the graphics subsystem up at all. From the CLI, you can load drivers and even start X, if needed. But I've never needed that, whenever I went into safe mode, all I needed was to trigger some package repair or reinstall something. A GUI wasn't really needed.
> 
> Yeah, it feels cluttery and annoying. Until you need that other kernel


every time I hear this argument, I can feel the neckbeard hairs growing.

yes, the CLI is powerful. If that works for you, fantastic. But most people are not going to memorize CLI commands and package names for if their system goes horribly wrong, the whole point of windows safe mode is that a normal end user can fix it without needing to type war and peace into thei CLI to make it work. 

It’s one of those things that sets windows and Mac OS X apart from Linux, and it flies right in the face of “well you don’t need to memorize CLI to use Linux” arguments.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 1, 2022)

Lei said:


> Why Huawei can't use android?
> if it's linux, if it's opensource, then how can one big fat guy say others shouldn't use it?


They can use AOSP. They just can't use Google Services.



R-T-B said:


> They can use it.  They can't use any of the propietary bits that make it "google" though (The play store etc)


Oops.. I replied before reading this.. my bad..



TheinsanegamerN said:


> I use Linux on the media pc in the living room.


Really? XBMC? Or something else?(No offense was intended here, only curious.)


----------



## Aquinus (Oct 1, 2022)

bug said:


> Just a small hint, but back when I was using it, Kubuntu was about the worst KDE distro. Neon (also Ubuntu based, albeit paired with up-to-date Qt and KDE is miles better).


I just needed something that works, it doesn't have to be the best. All my daughter really uses on it is a web browser. She probably could have gotten away with a chromebook, but I already had a decent low-power laptop laying around that she could use and it feels a bit more friendly than Gnome.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 1, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Really? XBMC? Or something else?



XBMC has been known as Kodi since 2014 when the name changed.

Kodi is the user-facing media box application. While it _can_ run on Linux systems Kodi itself has nothing to do with Linux as it runs on a variety of platforms (Xbox, Windows PC, Macs, various iDevices, FreeBSD, etc.). Remember that the original XBMC project was for Xbox (custom Pentium III running custom Windows NT). Linux support came later.

The operating system that I am running Kodi on is LibreELEC which is a great OS choice if you don't want to run anything but Kodi and you want to keep Linux at an arm's distance and not have to look at it.

LibreELEC is technically Linux (as in it runs the Linux kernel) but it's not a full fledged distribution. It's really an embedded device operating system like the Linux that runs my DSL router and my Super NES Classic. Gas pump POS terminals, et cetera. There is very limited functionality in LibreELEC beyond its support for Kodi and associated add-ons. Even some very common terminal commands like 'history' are missing from LibreELEC.

The pollster didn't include a poll choice that accommodates these embedded device situations. In my house there's a Roku and unused Chromecast (2nd gen) which might have Linux kernels. Not sure what my MFP (HP DeskJet printer) runs. My LG TV uses webOS which is also technically Linux but I don't think of myself as "running Linux" when I turn it on.

Despite the fact that I use devices every day that have Linux kernels, I don't feel like I am "running Linux" because I don't have to interact with it as a desktop operating system, something I'd like to keep. I boot Raspbian twice a year to check for Raspberry Pi 4's firmware updates and that's more than enough contact with desktop Linux for me.


----------



## theFOoL (Oct 1, 2022)

So I see Kodi as Emby. Just saying. I switched to Emby from plex


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 1, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> XBMC has been known as Kodi since 2014 when the name changed.


I still call it XBMC. Old habit.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 1, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I still call it XBMC. Old habit.



That's fine but this is a Linux discussion and poll. There's no way for me or anyone else here to know whether or not you were aware the name changed eight years ago. And if some random reader decides to search for XBMC, they will soon learn that the name changed making your recommendation look possibly outdated.

Again, it's important to distinguish between the media center application and the operating system. XBMC/Kodi is not Linux.

It's just like Mozilla/Firefox isn't Linux either.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 1, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> That's fine but this is a Linux discussion and poll. There's no way for me or anyone else here to know whether or not you were aware the name changed eight years ago. And if some random reader decides to search for XBMC, they will soon learn that the name changed making your recommendation look possibly outdated.
> 
> Again, it's important to distinguish between the media center application and the operating system. XBMC/Kodi is not Linux.
> 
> It's just like Mozilla/Firefox isn't Linux either.


Hmmm...


lexluthermiester said:


>


The creator of Linux disagrees with you. But whatever, carry on.


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 1, 2022)

Well Linus isn't always right. The world isn't black and white and no one is right all of the time.

No matter what Mr. Torvalds says, XBMC/Kodi aren't Linux. And neither is Mozilla/Firefox.

Go look at the Kodi source code and see if you can find the Linux kernel code. Trust me, whoever is compiling Kodi for iOS isn't building a Linux kernel along with it. Hell, I doubt if Apple's App Store guardians would let a foreign OS kernel into the downloadable binary. It likely violates their App Store T&C.

We've already covered the origin of XBMC. Mozilla traces its lineage to NCSA Mosaic which first ran on proprietary Unixes back in the early Nineties. It too did not run on Linux at its start.

Again,

*KODI ISN'T LINUX. IT'S A MEDIA PLAYER.*

LibreELEC is Linux.

Sorry to disappoint you.

_"Act accordingly."_


----------



## Solaris17 (Oct 1, 2022)

We should be civil now


----------



## cvaldes (Oct 1, 2022)

Kodi doesn't include a Linux kernel unless you download a Kodi-focused Linux build like LibreELEC or GeeXboX.

If you go to kodi.tv/download, those packages don't include the operating system.

Again, Kodi is not dependent on the Linux kernel nor does the Kodi source code include the Linux kernel. Remember that the Linux kernel by itself is not enough to provide full functionality for Kodi.

I think the main problem is that some people here don't understand fundamentally what an operating system actually is.


----------



## bug (Oct 1, 2022)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> I swear if someone ever gets EAC working on proton without game dev input I’m ditching windows 11.
> 
> every time I hear this argument, I can feel the neckbeard hairs growing.
> 
> ...


Well, you're arguing fewer users are able to use the CLI, whereas my argument was that the CLI can actually get you out of situations where a GUI won't start.

And yes, I'm fully aware in the user friendliness department Linux is the last of the three major operating systems.


----------



## DrCR (Oct 2, 2022)

I’m actually gaming on Linux exclusively at the point. Steam plus disinterest in most modern era AAA games made it rather easy.


----------



## mechtech (Oct 29, 2022)

Nope

I have tried and used Mint a long time ago probably 8+ years?  With the way windows 11 is going, and more games getting Linux support and more legacy systems piling up, I have been thinking of putting Mint, or Ubuntu or Zorin OS lite on some of them though.

Anyone here try/use Zorin Pro OS??


----------



## DrCR (Oct 29, 2022)

mechtech said:


> Nope
> 
> I have tried and used Mint a long time ago probably 8+ years?  With the way windows 11 is going, and more games getting Linux support and more legacy systems piling up, I have been thinking of putting Mint, or Ubuntu or Zorin OS lite on some of them though.
> 
> Anyone here try/use Zorin Pro OS??


I’m the opposite. WinOS at work but Linux at home for quite a number of years now. After lots of distro hopping (which I’d recommend as there’s a distro out there that will seem spot on to your taste), I’d recommend on one partition going with stock Ubuntu for Steam et al., as you can get whatever hand holding you’d ever want with it. That’s what I do for gaming, and then spend 99% of my non-gaming time in a different distro.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Oct 30, 2022)

desktop: FreeBSD
netbook: MX Linux (XFCE)
old laptop: Void Linux
VirtualBox VM's on FreeBSD: MX Linux (Fluxbox) and Alpine Linux (XFCE)

99% of the time I use my desktop but sporadically I also use Linux.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Oct 31, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> desktop: FreeBSD
> netbook: MX Linux (XFCE)
> old laptop: Void Linux
> VirtualBox VM's on FreeBSD: MX Linux (Fluxbox) and Alpine Linux (XFCE)
> ...


FreeBSD as a desktop OS! That's kinda hardcore..


----------



## ThrashZone (Oct 31, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> FreeBSD as a desktop OS! That's kinda hardcore..


Hi,
He's a rebel


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 31, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> He's a rebel


FreeBSD is actually less rebel and more like old school unix mainline hardcore compile your shit from source type stuff, but sure.  I think a rebel would use something goofy like one of those oddball OS/2 distros that can boot on modern hardware.  Why?  Who knows.  Because rebel.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Oct 31, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> FreeBSD is actually less rebel and more like old school unix mainline hardcore compile your shit from source type stuff, but sure.  I think a rebel would use something goofy like one of those oddball OS/2 distros that can boot on modern hardware.  Why?  Who knows.  Because rebel.


I've hardly ever compiled anything, except for 'automatic compilations' that happen when installing default packages.
I used to use Arch and therefore also the AUR and then I always lost a lot more time because of the AUR packages.

What I mean is that FreeBSD has more default packages than the popular Arch:






						Arch Linux - Package Search
					






					archlinux.org
				



*13597* matching packages found






						FreshPorts -- The Place For Ports - Most recent commits
					

Most recent commits




					www.freshports.org
				



Port count    *57482*


----------



## Vario (Oct 31, 2022)

I have been using it more now to run some scientific computing software on a lab computer, but I am not fluent in it yet.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 31, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> I've hardly ever compiled anything, except for 'automatic compilations' that happen when installing default packages.
> I used to use Arch and therefore also the AUR and then I always lost a lot more time because of the AUR packages.
> 
> What I mean is that FreeBSD has more default packages than the popular Arch:
> ...


My bad, I thought FreeBSD only had ports in source form similar to gentoo.  Learn new things here everyday.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Oct 31, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> My bad, I thought FreeBSD only had ports in source form similar to gentoo.  Learn new things here everyday.


On Gentoo, you also don't have to compile much if you don't feel like doing that:





						Gentoo Packages
					

Gentoo Packages Database




					packages.gentoo.org
				



I suspect you'll also be able to use Flatpak, Snap, AppImage and Nix on Gentoo, so that's over 110 000 packages that you can install without having to compile anything.
Although I understand what you mean. Gentoo is indeed widely used by people who like to compile their own packages. This is not so ecological because compilation requires a lot of CPU time.

FreeBSD is actually relatively simple to use as a desktop system. Like Void Linux, it's something that is undervalued by many computer users, but is capable as an everyday desktop.
For Office software: 







He doesn't list all the options, but some of the main ones. You also have eg Gnumeric which is better than MS Excel.
Of course you have plenty of choice in clients for email. You have Chromium, Epiphany, and Firefox, among a number of other browsers. You have plenty of audio and video player apps. You have many PDF viewers, Emacs, Vim, etc. You have GIMP, Inkscape, Krita and other software similar to Photoshop. For photographers you have RawTherapee and Darktable, digiKam and RawTherapee have some algorithms that give more detail than what the expensive Lightroom offers. For music producers you have Ardour, Audacity, LMMS, Qtraktor, and I've also made Ableton Live 9 work perfectly for what I need through Wine.

Gaming is where FreeBSD might be the least good at, but I've been using it for gaming for a while too and it's good enough for me.
You have 1237 native games. You can install these games with the package manager like any other package.
Then you have cloud gaming, which gives you access to a lot of games:








						11 Best Cloud Gaming Services for Everyone
					

The future of gaming lies in streaming games rather than running them on your machine. Find out what's the best cloud gaming service for you.




					geekflare.com
				



You have https://www.freshports.org/games/linux-steam-utils/ which gives access to quite a few additional quality games.
You also have Suyimazu: https://codeberg.org/Alexander88207/Suyimazu
You can use VirtualBox or bhyve to virtualize windows in FreeBSD. You can probably play that way too.
Finally, you have quite a few emulators that you can use in FreeBSD that make many additional games available:





						FreshPorts -- games/retroarch: Cross-platform entertainment system based on libretro API
					

RetroArch is the reference frontend for the libretro API. Popular examples of implementations for this API includes videogame system emulators and game engines, but also more generalized 3D programs. These programs are instantiated as dynamic libraries. We refer to these as "libretro cores".




					www.freshports.org
				








						FreshPorts -- emulators/dolphin-emu: Gamecube and Wii Emulator
					

Dolphin is a free Gamecube and Wii emulator.




					www.freshports.org
				











						GitHub - derrod/legendary: Legendary - A free and open-source replacement for the Epic Games Launcher
					

Legendary - A free and open-source replacement for the Epic Games Launcher - GitHub - derrod/legendary: Legendary - A free and open-source replacement for the Epic Games Launcher




					github.com
				








						FreshPorts -- emulators/rpcs3: PS3 emulator/debugger
					

RPCS3 is an open-source Sony PlayStation 3 emulator and debugger written in C++ for Windows and Linux. The project began development on May 23rd, 2011 and currently sports modern Vulkan, Direct3D 12 and OpenGL graphic APIs. The emulator is capable of booting and playing hundreds of commercial...




					www.freshports.org
				



Etc.

In general, it's surprisingly easy to switch to FreeBSD as a daily driver. I have a Microsoft LifeCam HD-3000 and it no longer works in windows, but it does work in FreeBSD even though this is an MS product that supposedly, according to the sticker, would have windows10 support. There are also some other strange things where I see FreeBSD having better support than windows/Linux. Think for example of 32 bit systems, which most Linux systems no longer wish to support.

If you're a computer user with intermediate or advanced skills, FreeBSD is quite competent on the desktop, but less so on laptops. (due to less hardware support for laptops)


----------



## redeye (Oct 31, 2022)

yes i use linux 

```
lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID:    Ubuntu
Description:    Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS
Release:    22.04
Codename:    jammy
```
for interfacing (downloading)to my seedbox. i call that my main system
although if web surfing defines the main system, then my ipad 9.7 pro would be the main system.
on my watercooled PC i use Win 10. (gaming) and for aquacomputer stuff.

i prefer linux, if only because it is easy to see the speed of downloading (vnstat)... but Window for system specs. and i think (believe) linux it is more "secure" (probably a myth, but ubuntu is straight foreword for data movement)


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Oct 31, 2022)

redeye said:


> I think (believe) linux it is more "secure" (probably a myth, but ubuntu is straight foreword for data movement)











						Windows Computers Were Targets of 83% of All Malware Attacks in Q1 2020
					

AV Test shows that Windows computers are the most vulnerable to malware attacks and are targeted more than any other operating system.




					www.pcmag.com
				



_Windows Computers Were Targets of *83% of All Malware Attacks* in Q1 2020
Android only made up 2.75 percent in 2019 but has increased to *3.24 percent* this year. All other systems, including iOS, macOS, and Linux, accounted for just *2.35 percent* last year; that number has since dropped to 1.91 percent in the beginning of 2020._

There are rumors that Linux has been getting more and more malware lately. 

This is a list of vulnerability statistics for FreeBSD and Linux. The generally lower amount of security issues on FreeBSD doesn't necessarily mean that FreeBSD is more secure than Linux, even though I do believe it is, but it can also be because there is a lot more eyes on Linux. However, the attack surface on most Linux distributions are considerably higher that on FreeBSD.

+---------+---------+-------+
| Year    | FreeBSD | Linux |
+---------|---------|-------+
| 1999    | 18      | 19    |
| 2000    | 27      | 5     |
| 2001    | 36      | 22    |
| 2002    | 31      | 15    |
| 2003    | 14      | 19    |
| 2004    | 15      | 51    |
| 2005    | 17      | 133   |
| 2006    | 27      | 90    |
| 2007    | 9       | 62    |
| 2008    | 15      | 71    |
| 2009    | 11      | 102   |
| 2010    | 8       | 123   |
| 2011    | 10      | 83    |
| 2012    | 10      | 115   |
| 2013    | 13      | 189   |
| 2014    | 18      | 130   |
| 2015    | 6       | 86    |
| 2016    | 6       | 217   |
| 2017    | 23      | 454   |
| 2018    | 29      | 177   |
| 2019    | 18      | 170   |
| 2020    | 31      | 126   |
| 2021    | 25      | 158   |
| 2022    | 1       | 73    |
|---------|---------|-------|
| Total   | 430     | 2780  |
+---------+---------+-------+

For further information about the specific vulnerabilities you can take a look at the CVE Details website for FreeBSD and Linux


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 31, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> On Gentoo, you also don't have to compile much if you don't feel like doing that:


I'm a gentoo admin man, nearly everything in gentoo packages/portage is distributed in source form...



SchumannFrequency said:


> I suspect you'll also be able to use Flatpak, Snap, AppImage and Nix on Gentoo, so that's over 110 000 packages that you can install without having to compile anything.


Yes but this is widely looked at as blasphemy...  lol.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Oct 31, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I'm a gentoo admin man, nearly everything in gentoo packages/portage is distributed in source form...


I think work is underway to make more binary packages easier to access for Gentoo:








						Experimental binary Gentoo package hosting (amd64)
					

As an experiment, I've started assembling a simple binary package hosting mechanism for Gentoo. Right now this comes with some serious limit...




					dilfridge.blogspot.com
				




For KDE, most packages are available in binary form I believe.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 31, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> I think work is underway to make more binary packages easier to access for Gentoo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're probably correct, truth be told it's hard for me to drop the "gentoo admin" title anymore when all I haven't touched it for 2 years lol...


----------



## shovenose (Oct 31, 2022)

I manage multiple web servers on which I do run Linux. But for desktop/laptop I have tried Linux over and over throughout the years and always end up frustrated and switching back to Windows.


----------



## Space Lynx (Oct 31, 2022)

I just installed the latest Ubuntu that came out a few days ago, I think I will be leaving Linux Mint for a bit and enjoying this OS for awhile.

I imagine in summer 2023 or fall 2023, I will go back over to Linux Mint.

periodically I will boot up windows on a separate SSD. I am trying to move to Linux permanently though. so far its been a great transition.


----------



## DrCR (Nov 1, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> I suspect you'll also be able to use Flatpak, Snap, AppImage and Nix


Please keep the forum family-friendly and avoid such foul language. 

I’ll have to check ou Void at some point. Recent Slackware release still shows love to 32bit.



CallandorWoT said:


> I just installed the latest Ubuntu that came out a few days ago


Did that on a box just the other day.
PSA: Getting the Desktop version (Ubuntu 22.04.1 Desktop) to install to a software raid 1 is annoying but doable if you’re interested.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2022)

DrCR said:


> Please keep the forum family-friendly and avoid such foul language.
> 
> I’ll have to check ou Void at some point. Recent Slackware release still shows love to 32bit.
> 
> ...



I don't mess around with raids, just casual gamer here, all I care about at this point is beating the fucking bots of third party sellers and getting RDNA3 at launch at MSRP.  going to be a bloody fucking nightmare on launch day refreshing the web page I know it already. i'm done after this. its already past the point of stupid. but i don't want to "settle" on the gpu side of things for what may very well be my last build for 7+ years.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Nov 1, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> I just installed the latest Ubuntu that came out a few days ago, I think I will be leaving Linux Mint for a bit and enjoying this OS for awhile.
> 
> I imagine in summer 2023 or fall 2023, I will go back over to Linux Mint.


Ubuntu has not been doing so well lately:


















The systems I would recommend for beginners right now:
Nobara Project, Mint, EndeavourOS, MX Linux

For intermediate/advanced users:
Void Linux, NetBSD, Devuan, FreeBSD, Clear Linux

Those are the best Unix-like systems in my opinion.


----------



## Shihab (Nov 1, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> Ubuntu has not been doing so well lately:


Just the Snaps crap, but other than that it's still one of the widest supported distros out there. Just look at the hits for any linux-related queries on Google. Doubt anything comes close, except perhaps for the strong documentation Arch has.
The OOMD issue was fixed months ago.
Ubuntu has probably been "declining" since at least Unity days, in the same vain PC gaming has been dying since someone invented gamepads...

That said, I agree that snaps suck. One of the reasons that had my try ditching it for Fedora. I still hate Canonical for the deceptive Firefox deb packages in official repos. Doesn't seem like there is much hope it will go the Unity way anytime soon, sadly...


----------



## Zareek (Nov 1, 2022)

Great thread, a large part of my job is administration of Linux servers. All CLI, RHEL and CentOS and mostly in AWS. I have Linux running on a lot of things at home. It's mostly tinkering, but some of it is home network. I have a little Ubuntu Server box as my Unifi Controller. It's not Linux, but a few other people have mentioned FreeBSD. I use that too, PfSense Firewall.  A few R Pis I mess with, mostly for emulation. A few random PCs running CentOS and Mint. More recently, I put Zorin OS on an old laptop to check it out. I won't even attempt to count the number of embedded Linux and Android devices I have. I am also contemplating jumping to Linux as my primary desktop OS. There are too many things I dislike about Windows 11 and the direction Micro$oft is going.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Nov 1, 2022)

Shihab said:


> Just the Snaps crap, but other than that it's still one of the widest supported distros out there. Just look at the hits for any linux-related queries on Google. Doubt anything comes close, except perhaps for the strong documentation Arch has.
> The OOMD issue was fixed months ago.
> Ubuntu has probably been "declining" since at least Unity days, in the same vain PC gaming has been dying since someone invented gamepads...
> 
> That said, I agree that snaps suck. One of the reasons that had my try ditching it for Fedora. I still hate Canonical for the deceptive Firefox deb packages in official repos. Doesn't seem like there is much hope it will go the Unity way anytime soon, sadly...


It's not just Snaps. Ubuntu has been steadily declining in quality for the desktop since the year 2010. That's twelve years of decline now.
Their focus is IoT and they don't spend much time on their desktop anymore. Their own engineers usually use macOS or windows on the desktop, and it shows.

Ubuntu OOMD just isn't that good as a technology I guess: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Mint-17-No-OOMD
You're right they solved a big problem but other things keep popping up:








						oomd fails during pid1 daemon-reexec · Issue #20330 · systemd/systemd
					

When I do 'systemctl daemon-reexec' in a Fedora rawhide VM, I get: Jul 28 11:52:54 rawhide-uefi systemd-oomd[685]: Failed to connect to /run/systemd/io.system.ManagedOOM: Connection refused...




					github.com
				











						Why is my Firefox so unstable on Ubuntu LTS 22.04?
					

Four days ago I upgraded my laptop from Ubuntu 20.04 LTS to 22.04 LTS.  While this upgrade generally went very smoothly, a pop-up paused the process to tell me that henceforth Firefox would be pack...




					askubuntu.com
				



The technology is just unstable right now, not ready at all to force it on people.

Fedora is as much supported as Ubuntu, it has packages that Ubuntu doesn't have. RPM is about as popular as DEB. SUSE and Red Hat are the two largest Linux companies and both use RPM..

I don't know but I just want to say it's about time Ubuntu is abandoned by desktop users. It has simply become one of the very worst Linux systems.

UBUNTU CONTINUES FALLING LIKE A ROCK AS A GAMING DISTRO








						Ubuntu Continues Falling Like a Rock as a Gaming Distro - Boiling Steam
					

Ubuntu continues to decline as a gaming distro, according to the market share seen in the protonDB database...




					boilingsteam.com
				




Linux Mint Makes Improvements Around Flatpaks With Update Manager Integration





						Linux Mint Makes Improvements Around Flatpaks With Update Manager Integration - Phoronix
					






					www.phoronix.com
				




Ubuntu To Abandon Unity 8, Switch Back To GNOME





						Ubuntu To Abandon Unity 8, Switch Back To GNOME -  		 		Phoronix Forums
					

Phoronix: Ubuntu To Abandon Unity 8, Switch Back To GNOME  Canonical has announced via Mark Shuttleworth they are ending their development of the Unity 8



					www.phoronix.com
				




Privacy in Ubuntu 12.10: Amazon Ads and Data Leaks








						Privacy in Ubuntu 12.10: Amazon Ads and Data Leaks
					

See part 2 of Privacy in Ubuntu 12.10: Full Disk Encryption. Earlier this month the eagerly awaited free software operating system Ubuntu 12.10 was released, and it includes a slew of new features (YouTube link), some of which have infuriated users because of privacy concerns. Over the last...




					www.eff.org
				




Are We Witnessing the Decline of Ubuntu?





						Are We Witnessing the Decline of Ubuntu? | Datamation
					

History is written years after the events it describes. But when the history of free software finally is written, I am increasingly convinced that this




					www.datamation.com
				




Ubuntu abandons Unity8/Mir/Phones… WHAT?








						Ubuntu abandons Unity8/Mir/Phones... WHAT?
					

Wow!!! I just read this… Totally unexpected!!! I’ve been reading comments on phoronix for years that Canonical will just drop the whole project, but I always thought that the investment to this project is too much to just drop it. I was totally wrong… Any thoughts??  Phoronix Article  Mark...




					ubuntu-mate.community
				




What a mess is Ubuntu 22.04

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ujn838

The fact is, a small company like Canonical doesn't have the resources to specialize in more than one thing, and that thing is IoT. As a desktop user you are going to be (usually) better on Mint, Fedora, Void, MX Linux, Devuan, EndeavourOS.


----------



## Space Lynx (Nov 1, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> It's not just Snaps. Ubuntu has been steadily declining in quality for the desktop since the year 2010. That's twelve years of decline now.
> Their focus is IoT and they don't spend much time on their desktop anymore. Their own engineers usually use macOS or windows on the desktop, and it shows.
> 
> Ubuntu OOMD just isn't that good as a technology I guess: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Mint-17-No-OOMD
> ...



thank you for this. I had no idea.

well I guess I will stick with Linux Mint after all. bloody hell lol


----------



## Shihab (Nov 1, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> You're right they solved a big problem but other things keep popping up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





SchumannFrequency said:


> What a mess is Ubuntu 22.04
> What a mess is Ubuntu 22.04 from linux


The first linked issue is marked closed and fixed already. Besides, it's not Ubuntu specific (the conditions specifically name Fedora).
Random posts on some forums or boards hardly constitute a mass issue. Name any distro and I can pull posts with the worst bugs and issues you can imagine in seconds.



SchumannFrequency said:


> UBUNTU CONTINUES FALLING LIKE A ROCK AS A GAMING DISTRO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ubuntu as a gaming platform is going steady and sometimes even going up, despite SteamOS pushing all competition against it. Check Steam's hardware survey, which is more relevant considering ProtonDB's stats are most likely a fraction of what Steam has, given that the former's users are subset of the latter.
That said, the figures are fickle. Ubuntu sometimes ranks lower and higher than Arch/Manjaro, but there is nothing that can be used to infer that it's "declining."

I'm inclined to believe the field has somewhat leveled in the past couple of years. Looking at random dates from Wayback machine's records, Linux overall market share did jump since 2019 (naturally). The bulk of the growth seems to have gone to Arch/Manjaro.

It goes without saying, of course, that we are comparing marketshare percentages here, not the actual size of the userbase.



SchumannFrequency said:


> Linux Mint Makes Improvements Around Flatpaks With Update Manager Integration
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what's the relevance here. A user can integrate flatpak with the software store on Ubuntu and update flatpak (and snap) packages from there. The software updater is a front end for .deb updater/upgrader by design. It's probably just a preference, but I'd argue it's better to keep the two separate. Prioritize updating system packages and important security patches to major components without potentially tempt the user to postpone them because the updater lists gigabytes of some low-priority programs' updates.



SchumannFrequency said:


> Ubuntu To Abandon Unity 8, Switch Back To GNOME
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ancient history. And I honestly can't find why this can be used in anyway to infer that the distro is declining. Gnome itself has gone through drastic design (aesthetic and under-the-hood) changes, don't hear anyone calling its demise (gnome-haters popping every major release notwithstanding).
If anything, I'd say going back to Gnome counts *for* Canonical here.



SchumannFrequency said:


> Privacy in Ubuntu 12.10: Amazon Ads and Data Leaks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And it was practically killed even before Unity's head hit the chopping block.



SchumannFrequency said:


> Are We Witnessing the Decline of Ubuntu?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yet another page from the distant history, this one does prove my point from my previous post: This doomsaying has been going around for ages, yet here we.
But don't take my word for it, let's see how Google trends are faring:






SchumannFrequency said:


> Ubuntu abandons Unity8/Mir/Phones… WHAT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Microsoft ditched Windows Phone, because that's what companies do when a project is clearly going no where: Cut your losses it and focus on what's working. You'd be hard pressed to name any company, successful or not, that hasn't dropped a project or two (or a _googol_). This has nothing to do with the state of another product that is still going strong half a decade after this decision.



SchumannFrequency said:


> The fact is, a small company like Canonical doesn't have the resources to specialize in more than one thing, and that thing is IoT. As a desktop user you are going to be (usually) better on Mint, Fedora, Void, MX Linux, Devuan, EndeavourOS.


That's conjecture, not facts, considering we neither can measure said resources nor tell if there is any allocation issues.


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Nov 2, 2022)

> The first linked issue is marked closed and fixed already. Besides, it's not Ubuntu specific (the conditions specifically name Fedora).
> Random posts on some forums or boards hardly constitute a mass issue. Name any distro and I can pull posts with the worst bugs and issues you can imagine in seconds.


There are init systems that are faster and more secure and for which bugs are almost never reported.
Systemd is basically bloatware. There is no other init system that has as many lines of code. And complexity isn't good for security.



> Ubuntu as a gaming platform is going steady and sometimes even going up, despite SteamOS pushing all competition against it. Check Steam's hardware survey, which is more relevant considering ProtonDB's stats are most likely a fraction of what Steam has, given that the former's users are subset of the latter.
> That said, the figures are fickle. Ubuntu sometimes ranks lower and higher than Arch/Manjaro, but there is nothing that can be used to infer that it's "declining."


ProtonDB is a decent indicator. Anyway, you don't seem to believe it. Let's consult a second source:





						User stats | GamingOnLinux
					

Statistics generated from the users of the GamingOnLinux website




					www.gamingonlinux.com
				




Arch is used twice as much as Ubuntu currently, and Manjaro is also slightly more popular than the 'pure' Ubuntu.
Outside of Mint, there are no really popular derivatives of Ubuntu anymore for gaming.



> Not sure what's the relevance here. A user can integrate flatpak with the software store on Ubuntu and update flatpak (and snap) packages from there. The software updater is a front end for .deb updater/upgrader by design. It's probably just a preference, but I'd argue it's better to keep the two separate. Prioritize updating system packages and important security patches to major components without potentially tempt the user to postpone them because the updater lists gigabytes of some low-priority programs' updates.


Mint does not follow Ubuntu with Snaps, and instead will help to better integrate Flatpak. Mint also does not follow Ubuntu with systemd OOMD. Those are two core technologies that are not competitive/acceptable according to a large distro such as Mint.. 



> Ancient history. And I honestly can't find why this can be used in anyway to infer that the distro is declining. Gnome itself has gone through drastic design (aesthetic and under-the-hood) changes, don't hear anyone calling its demise (gnome-haters popping every major release notwithstanding).
> If anything, I'd say going back to Gnome counts *for* Canonical here.


A large company that is very diversified can afford these kinds of mistakes. But these are three things they've invested in that they're just dropping completely. When did Fedora create these kinds of major failed projects? This also means that they have not put their limited resources to good use. In the end you can say that Ubuntu has done little more than make existing tech worse for the last ten years, and they don't even develop their own desktop anymore, which Mint does. You should also not forget that this is not a pleasant experience for users, that the desktop environment you are familiar with is suddenly no longer properly supported. When did Mint users experience this? What elements does Ubuntu still have from a relevant distro? Nothing at all.



> And Microsoft ditched Windows Phone, because that's what companies do when a project is clearly going no where: Cut your losses it and focus on what's working. You'd be hard pressed to name any company, successful or not, that hasn't dropped a project or two (or a _googol_). This has nothing to do with the state of another product that is still going strong half a decade after this decision.


But Ubuntu is not a big company. If you have limited resources, you have to see that you don't invest them in completely useless things, or you will be immediately out of the market. What do you think would happen to Canonical if Mark Shuttleworth is gone?



> Yet another page from the distant history, this one does prove my point from my previous post: This doomsaying has been going around for ages, yet here we.
> But don't take my word for it, let's see how Google trends are faring:


Are these specific to the desktop, or about 'general use'? That Ubuntu is declining despite the strong growth that IoT has seen in the last 10 years says everything you need to know.

I tried to put Ubuntu on a computer I wanted to sell. I encountered a disaster.

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/xnds8x

Ubuntu 22.04: Beautiful Outside, Ugly Inside!








						Ubuntu 22.04: Beautiful Outside, Ugly Inside!
					

Ubuntu 22.04 Jammy Jellyfish looks gorgeous but there are some problems Let’s have a look at them in this Ubuntu 22.04 review.




					averagelinuxuser.com
				



*Overall, Ubuntu 22.04 brings many attractive improvements and the problems I mentioned are not devastating. But given that there are other Linux distros without these problems, I would not look at Ubuntu 22.04 as my daily driver.
If you are an Ubuntu user, I recommend waiting at least 3 months before you upgrade so most of the bugs get fixed.*

why is ubuntu so bad and buggy.

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/t33p01

I know enough distros where I've never even seen questions like this asked. 
I follow the reddit of some distros on a daily basis and I've never, ever seen this kind of question.

My impression is that Ubuntu desktop users will be the Linux users who will see the most things crash on their desktop. 
Unfortunately, there are no statistics for this.


----------



## Shihab (Nov 2, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> Systemd is basically bloatware. There is no other init system that has as many lines of code. And complexity isn't good for security.​


I can't comment on this specific topic, but I can point out that reservations about systemd are not Ubuntu's issue, at least not in this context. Practically every major Linux distro uses systemd at this point. Can't use it to smear only Ubuntu now, no?​


SchumannFrequency said:


> There are init systems that are faster and more secure and for which *bugs are almost never reported.*​


A lesser used software with less eyeballs on it will definitely have less bugs, the base premise of Linus's law. Having little or no bugs reports is not necessarily a good thing, it could also mean a software is poorly audited/tested. Betting on uncertainty can go either way...
Again, not exactly defending Systemd here, but this is not argument against it.​


SchumannFrequency said:


> ProtonDB is a decent indicator. Anyway, you don't seem to believe it. Let's consult a second source:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice stats, but they still represent a fraction of the population Steam has access to. Your link states a population of about a 12k total, Steam's active, relevant population is probably in the million range. Ironically got this estimate from a different article on the same website you linked to.​


SchumannFrequency said:


> Mint does not follow Ubuntu with Snaps, and instead will help to better integrate Flatpak. Mint also does not follow Ubuntu with systemd OOMD. Those are two core technologies that are not competitive/acceptable according to a large distro such as Mint..​


And that's the choice of Mint's maintainers, which its user base may be supporting of. But that doesn't automatically make other distros with different choices bad. 
Ad verecundiam hardly applies to Mint here. First because Ubuntu is "larger," older, and definitely better funded. Second, because there are other "large" distros that did choose to implement systemd-oomd (Fedora comes to mind).

Choosing flatpaks over snaps or vice-versa isn't a critical choice, no different than a distro choosing to go plasma over gnome. Probably even less, seeing how you can run both snaps and flatpaks and easily install on with the other.​


SchumannFrequency said:


> A large company that is very diversified can afford these kinds of mistakes. But these are three things they've invested in that they're just dropping completely. When did Fedora create these kinds of major failed projects? This also means that they have not put their limited resources to good use. In the end you can say that Ubuntu has done little more than make existing tech worse for the last ten years, and they don't even develop their own desktop anymore, which Mint does. You should also not forget that this is not a pleasant experience for users, that the desktop environment you are familiar with is suddenly no longer properly supported. When did Mint users experience this? What elements does Ubuntu still have from a relevant distro? Nothing at all.​


Fedora is not a company though, it's a community-run project, same as Mint. Compare companies to companies.
Canonical maintains multiple versions of Ubuntu with different DEs, including one that is based on Unity.​


SchumannFrequency said:


> But Ubuntu is not a big company. If you have limited resources, you have to see that you don't invest them in completely useless things, or you will be immediately out of the market. What do you think would happen to Canonical if Mark Shuttleworth is gone?​


Strange question, tbh. Might as well ask what would happen to Linux at all if Torvalds is gone (probably less memes to use as reaction to Nvidia+Linux news, which would be devastating indeed).
Doing a quick research, Canonical has about 500 employees and >US$140 mill (> €120mil?) in revenues. That well fits the EU's criteria for "large enterprise."
As for investing in useless thing, that's a tricky part for a business (or any project owner or manager, really) to determine. Projects begin on some ambitious (and optimistic) premise, and, at least for the smartphone forays, that criteria was met. Who wouldn't want a slice of that pie? It wasn't just Canonical who tried jumping on the smartphone OS bandwagon, you have Moblin, Tizen, FirefoxOS, Meego, and others from various sized companies and initiatives that either were dropped entirely or repurposed for other applications.
When things later turned out not to be going anywhere, Canonical did what any other sane product owner would do, axe it. That's not a bad thing by any measure, only natural (and I'd argue healthy, else nothing would be developed at all).​


SchumannFrequency said:


> I know enough distros where I've never even seen questions like this asked.


That's where the trend ratings come into play. Perhaps you're seeing this because there are many more people using and are interested on Ubuntu than other distros?
Also, again, I invoke Linus's law...
And I can't resist not including this...


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Nov 2, 2022)

Shihab said:


> Practically every major Linux distro uses systemd at this point. Can't use it to smear only Ubuntu now, no?​



There are plenty of popular Linux distros that don't use systemd:

MX Linux
PCLinuxOS
Slackware Linux
Alpine Linux
Devuan GNU+Linux
ArchBang
Funtoo
Nitrux
AntiX
GNU Guix System
Void Linux
Artix Linux
ChromeOS
Android

MX Linux has been at the number one position of DistroWatch for over a year.
If you compare this system to how Ubuntu is running now, most people will immediately understand why it is in this position.



> Nice stats, but they still represent a fraction of the population Steam has access to. Your link states a population of about a 12k total, Steam's active, relevant population is probably in the million range. Ironically got this estimate from a different article on the same website you linked to.



I have a degree in statistics. The size of a sample is not going to be the only factor.
The sample simply has to be large enough and representative and meet some assumptions.

2736 people have replied to the question.
That is a fairly large number of users. It can be fairly representative for _all_ Linux gamers.


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## ShiBDiB (Nov 2, 2022)

Thread title should probably be "How do you use linux" instead of the current. Given it's in the linux section of the forum you're going to get skewed answers if you base it off the current title.

I run ubuntu on my home server. It's mainly a plex/torrent/sonarr/radarr box right now as I don't really have anything else to use it for.


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## claes (Nov 2, 2022)

You’re probably right, guy just doesn’t understand that Ubuntu is by far the most popular Linux distribution in both consumer and enterprise markets and is searching Reddit for an agenda as to why the largest user base reports bugs more often than small user bases.

I mean, the focus of Ubuntu is IoT? Think you meant web servers but whatever. Let’s ask 2,000 random users rather than the tens of thousands of corporate websites, databases, and other servers that rely on Ubuntu LTS with no real issue.


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## R-T-B (Nov 2, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> popular


I think you are kind of abusing that term with your distro list, honestly.


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## claes (Nov 2, 2022)

“Slackware, a popular Linux desktop environment for the casual user, great for gaming and known for it’s bug-free, transparent development”

sorry I’m in a mood


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## Shihab (Nov 3, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> I have a degree in statistics. The size of a sample is not going to be the only factor.
> The sample simply has to be large enough and representative and meet some assumptions.


True, and perhaps the most important of those assumption is the sample being _*unbiased*_.
Now consider: *A*: A website for enthusiasts and users who are more technically oriented, and *B*: a service that practically every gamer subscribes to.
*A* relies on conscious participation and self reporting, while *B* is -partially- automated.
*A* samples forum users, *B* samples gamers directly, regardless of whether they even know what the hell a forum is.
So, which, from your experience as a trained statistician, would provide a, shall we say, "less" biased sample, assuming -for the sake of argument- ceteris paribus?

Suppose we can't even begin to quantify this bias, so we'll have to settle with what have. And what have is one result from a population that is more than 130 times the size of another, that paints a complete different picture. I don't believe we need to start swinging degrees around to at least agree that something isn't right here...


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## DrCR (Nov 3, 2022)

I recently got to geek out a bit with some engineers about Linux and why Ubuntu will basically never be used (industrial environment) by them vs Red Hat.

I haven’t touched an rpm distro since trying Fedora Core 2 forever ago. And I skip on it almost immediately since it seemed all wrong vs the Slackware I cut my teeth with. It basically has been Debian or Slackware based distros ever sense for me. (I tried Arch when it was a new distro, but it’s not for me.)

I have tinkering with Fedora (maybe Fedora Spotlight, whatever twist that is) and Rocky on my to do list now due to that conversation, but I’m curious— am I the only one here who found/finds Fedora and co weird?


----------



## SchumannFrequency (Nov 3, 2022)

Shihab said:


> Check Steam's hardware survey, which is more relevant considering ProtonDB's stats are most likely a fraction of what Steam has, given that the former's users are subset of the latter.


You're talking about sample size here.
It's clear that you think 'The steam hardware survey' has the larger sample size. The problem with your idea is that there isn't any hard evidence for this. If you ever followed the GamingOnLinux website, you would know that this survey is frequently discussed here and its reliability is questioned by many/most users. Mainly because most people seem to have never received this survey.









						Steam Hardware Survey For January 2015
					

Here is the Steam Hardware survey for January 2015, starting the year with not many changes as expected.




					www.gamingonlinux.com
				



_As always, remember this is a survey, so *it won't ask every single one of you to do it. It would only be truly accurate if it did it behind the scenes, but that's not what a survey is for this is just to get a general idea*._

The steam hardware survey bias against linux

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/7h48rw
_I am using linux since more than 2 years, with steam open nearly every day. I didn't get the survey once. Now I set up a windows VM with GPU passthrough and all the nice stuff, and after a few weeks of opening steam there, it asks me for a hardware survey on windows. What the fuck steam?_



> Now consider: A: A website for enthusiasts and users who are more technically oriented, and B: a service that practically every gamer subscribes to.
> A relies on conscious participation and self reporting, while B is -partially- automated.
> A samples forum users, B samples gamers directly, regardless of whether they even know what the hell a forum is.
> So, which, from your experience as a trained statistician, would provide a, shall we say, "less" biased sample, assuming -for the sake of argument- ceteris paribus?



You forget that the Steam Hardware Survey is too selective to give an overall picture. Not every gamer uses Steam, and this is probably more the case with Linux gamers than with other types of gamers. You have the Linux gamers who always stay with GOG. Some only use Lutris without ever using steam. Some use wine + dxvk without ever using steam. 

The GamingOnLinux users is a more 'general' sample that does not have this particular bias. They don't have to use steam per se..

The three different sources (GOL, steam hardware survey, ProtonDB) all confirm that Ubuntu is no longer the most popular Linux distro in their statistics.

"SteamOS Holo" 64 bit 24.98%
Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS 64 bit 12.27%
"Arch Linux" 64 bit 9.12%
"Manjaro Linux" 64 bit 6.92%
Freedesktop.org SDK 22.08 (Flatpak runtime) 64 bit 5.71%
Other 40.99%

SteamOS Holo and Manjaro are derivatives of Arch Linux. If we want to calculate the percentage of Arch-based distros, we see the following:
Arch-based distros: *41.02%*
Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS: *12.27%*

You also have EndeavourOS and a number of other distro's based on Arch. You have Fedora and Nobara Project that are gaining popularity.Those are not listed. And of course you also have other Ubuntu versions and derivatives of Ubuntu that are not specifically mentioned. You wouldn't be a useful statistician. The survey you always defend as the 'most valuable' is in reality a very incomplete statistic that says almost nothing at all.

I have no problem with you using Ubuntu or anything else. I think that's the advantage of Linux that everyone can choose what they prefer in many more areas. But I started on Linux sometime in 2008 and then used Ubuntu for years, and for the last few years I've still tried to use Ubuntu on my netbook and laptops, but I've now gotten to the point where it's no longer on _any_ system .

I would recommend people who have medium or high quality requirements to leave Ubuntu for what it is and give the following systems a chance:
Nobara Project, Void Linux, Mint, EndeavourOS, MX Linux, NetBSD, Devuan, FreeBSD and Clear Linux


----------



## The King (Nov 3, 2022)

Technically almost "everyone" uses Linux everyday, they just don't know that they do!

Example almost all routers run Linux. Numerous other devices that people encounter in their daily lives mostly run on Linux.


----------



## Shihab (Nov 3, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> The steam hardware survey bias against linux
> The steam hardware survey bias against linux from linux_gaming _I am using linux since more than 2 years, with steam open nearly every day. I didn't get the survey once. Now I set up a windows VM with GPU passthrough and all the nice stuff, and after a few weeks of opening steam there, it asks me for a hardware survey on windows. What the fuck steam?_​


I've personally was asked to participate in Steam's hardware survey at least once in every distro I've installed it on.
1, 2, 5 or even a 100 complaining they haven't received requests out of a million is hardly something to focus on. Good samples are randomly selected. It would thus mean, by virtue of being randomly picked, you don't get a 100% chance of being included, no?​


SchumannFrequency said:


> You forget that the Steam Hardware Survey is too selective to give an overall picture. Not every gamer uses Steam, and this is probably more the case with Linux gamers than with other types of gamers. You have the Linux gamers who always stay with GOG. Some only use Lutris without ever using steam. Some use wine + dxvk without ever using steam.​


True, but, for the lack of any reliable insight on the actual segmentation of the gaming market, we can only infer distribution, and hence significance of other stores, using other (platform-agnostic) measures. Let's try revenue. For FY2020, gog's revenue was at ~US$71mill (page 62), Steam had US$7.3 billions, that's ~100 times more revenue. I agree it's not an exact measure for the size of the user base, but it is a good indicator. And then you have -when you consider that only Steam support linux- native support, reduced complexity, low bar of entry, etc, etc.

I do not deny that there are probably many who game outside the steam ecosystem, but there are two factors to consider here: 1- It's not mutually exclusive. ProtonDB itself is a good evidence of that (database includes gaming on Wine/Bottles/Lutris, yet all its users are also Steam users). 2- Steam can function as a launcher for non-steam games.

I cannot find any stats for Lutris, and would appreciate reliable ones for it. As for manually setting up environment for gaming, I don't think we need to point out why those users would be a minority...​


SchumannFrequency said:


> The three different sources (GOL, steam hardware survey, ProtonDB) all confirm that Ubuntu is no longer the most popular Linux distro in their statistics.​


I did state that Steam's offerings are putting the screws on Ubuntu. I avoided focusing on it because it's -probably- entirely driven by the Deck's adoption, which would make it moot to compare to desktop distros installed by conscious user choice (i.e. all the other distros we're talking about). ProtonDB does the same by treating the Deck as it's own niche with its own grouping (which is annoying, when you're trying to check how a game performs on the desktop. Have to scroll past a dozen of posts to get there! -_-). The GamingOnLinux dataset counts SteamOS separately.

I think it's unwise to start moving goal posts from talking about specific distros to "it's based on x" and then grouping several different products against one. This would, for starters, make (even more) moot your previous comparisons between Mint and Ubuntu. Heck, I could just say this entire discussion is pointless, and the most superior distro overall is Debian!​


SchumannFrequency said:


> You wouldn't be a useful statistician.​


I know.​


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## claes (Nov 3, 2022)

Shihab said:


> Heck, I could just say this entire discussion is pointless, and the most superior distro overall is Debian!


This seems like the correct answer? I honestly don’t know what Schumann’s argument is anymore but admire your patience and thoughtfulness in entertaining this… discussion


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## lexluthermiester (Nov 3, 2022)

claes said:


> This seems like the correct answer? I honestly don’t know what Schumann’s argument is anymore but admire your patience and thoughtfulness in entertaining this… discussion


I'm having no issues following along. I think it's been interesting and insightful from both parties. Schumann has stated a few things I didn't know about and went to read up on. But I've also enjoyed reading Shihab's perspectives as well. I disagree that this discussion was pointless.


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## claes (Nov 3, 2022)

I understand the words, but Shihab is right about the shifting of goal posts. It is no longer an argument about the quality of Ubuntu for desktop users but a one-sided “discussion” of which Linux distro is best for gaming, which was not the premise. And, well, the statistics are really bad, but I guess that depends on what your goal post is.

Glad you’re having fun following along.


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## mplayerMuPDF (Nov 3, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> You're talking about sample size here.
> It's clear that you think 'The steam hardware survey' has the larger sample size. The problem with your idea is that there isn't any hard evidence for this. If you ever followed the GamingOnLinux website, you would know that this survey is frequently discussed here and its reliability is questioned by many/most users. Mainly because most people seem to have never received this survey.
> 
> 
> ...


 My experience with NetBSD on AMD64 (multiple versions and computers) was absolutely horrendous. I don't remember the specifics but it mostly had to do with the installer being fatally buggy. Really wanted to like it and never had an issue with on a Raspberry Pi B+ (armv6hf) but it was not to be. FreeBSD has serious quality issues too. If you want a quality *BSD then OpenBSD is the best option but using it as a desktop OS (which I personally did a couple versions ago for some months) comes with its own challenges.


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## SchumannFrequency (Nov 4, 2022)

mplayerMuPDF said:


> My experience with NetBSD on AMD64 (multiple versions and computers) was absolutely horrendous. I don't remember the specifics but it mostly had to do with the installer being fatally buggy. Really wanted to like it and never had an issue with on a Raspberry Pi B+ (armv6hf) but it was not to be. FreeBSD has serious quality issues too. If you want a quality *BSD then OpenBSD is the best option but using it as a desktop OS (which I personally did a couple versions ago for some months) comes with its own challenges.


NetBSD is relatively good. But this is not something that applies in every situation and for every user. Two years ago I had several European wi-fi USB sticks that didn't work on FreeBSD. In itself this is not a super big problem because I also had a (cheap) extender that I could connect via an ethernet cable.

I had then tested NetBSD and_ all _these wi-fi USB sticks were working, and I've only used NetBSD for a few days but had no problems with anything. NetBSD's wi-fi USB support is sometimes better than FreeBSD, although I don't know if it still applies as it's been worked on for the last year.

Another NetBSD advantage: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355017418238816257
_on a lightly loaded NetBSD system, compute bound code is 10%+ faster than on a Linux box with same CPU. One big difference, the number of involuntary context switches is much higher on Linux - maybe due the hundreds of kernel processes in Linux.

In fact, I consistently show #netbsd runs applications faster than Linux - these are not systematic tests, but Linux has a huge overhead now from the vast number of system processes running all the time_

It's always said that installing NetBSD is a good learning experience and things like that, and that the installation can be difficult, but I don't know. I didn't find installing NetBSD especially more difficult than other systems. It hadn't occurred to me. The Register recently reviewed it: https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/10/netbsd_93/

The above article is completely subjective. He says things that he actually contradicts in his article later. He could have just installed XFCE directly and then most of his article no longer applies..

Another benefit of NetBSD is security so it is arguably the most underrated system in the universe.

OpenBSD excels in hardware support and security, but has the major flaw that it only has half the performance of FreeBSD. FreeBSD is already a very secure system and can be made as secure as OpenBSD with some extra work.

In terms of quality, I don't think there is anything better than FreeBSD. So I don't know what problems you experienced.


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## DrCR (Nov 9, 2022)

was cleaning out some of my notes and came across this link. Not sure where I came across it (it may have been this thread), but posting here to share since I found it an interesting read.

https://ludocode.com/blog/flatpak-is-not-the-future


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## Easy Rhino (Nov 9, 2022)

DrCR said:


> was cleaning out some of my notes and came across this link. Not sure where I came across it (it may have been this thread), but posting here to share since I found it an interesting read.
> 
> https://ludocode.com/blog/flatpak-is-not-the-future



Yes, there have been a lot of hot takes around flatpak over the years. I think the concept is the future but the implementation needs work.


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## SchumannFrequency (Nov 9, 2022)

Easy Rhino said:


> Yes, there have been a lot of hot takes around flatpak over the years. I think the concept is the future but the implementation needs work.


In terms of boot times, performance after boot, and disk space usage, AppImage outperforms Snap and Flatpak.

Somehow, it's a bit odd that Canonical and Red Hat don't just have a chat about using AppImage together. Thus finally solving the old compatibility problem with something that is most acceptable. You also have GNU Guix and Nix which may also be a better concept than Snap and Flatpak.

So that's a strange phenomenon to watch. That two companies you would expect to have smart engineers fill their days pushing inferior tech and making it the norm. A bit like MS.


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## DrCR (Nov 12, 2022)

SchumannFrequency said:


> smart engineers fill their days pushing inferior tech and making it the norm. A bit like MS.


Well, Red Hat will Red Hat. (We could talk init systems…) And Canonical is too small of a player comparatively.


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## vectoravtech (Nov 17, 2022)

I use linux mint mate in a dualboot with windows 11 for gaming.


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## Goodman (Dec 15, 2022)

I choose *as my main operating system *even if I'm using "dual boot" on separate SSD (just choose in Bios which one I want to boot from)
But I rarely boot into windows maybe 2 or 3 times a year lol! (Win7 Ultimate)

True that I rarely game anymore so windows is not important to me but my Dos games works super fast in Linux  joking! , quite frankly except for a very small number of games pretty much all my games works good in Linux using Wine , Playonlinux , Steam/Proton , Lutris , etc...
If you got a good "recent" PC 5 years or less you could probably play pretty much all the (recent) games out there in Linux specially if you got an AMD GPU with Nvidia you may be a bit faster but you will have to install their proprietary drivers and you'll get more games not working with Nvidia than you would with AMD GPU because of AMD open source drivers

Anyhow I tried Linux in mid 90's but was to hard (Red Hat) then I give up until I tried Ubuntu in around 2006 or 2008 much easier but I didn't like the Unity thing moved on to Mint liked it a lot use it for a while then tried some more distro's like Arch , Debian , or Ubuntu based , you name it I probably tried it before also different DE , XFCE , Mate (really don't like it) Cinamon , Budgie and now using only KDE that is best for me

What got me into KDE was Feren OS easy to use and learn and quite frankly probably best KDE out there but it is often to late in the kernels and some packages so now i'm using only Kubuntu on my main PC there is also KDE Neon of course but to "lite" for my taste

KDE is so nice and so much customization that you can do with it that once you are used it , using anything else seams like you're missing on a lots of things that you can do with a distro and you fell like going backwards with any other DE but that just my opinion


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