# James Webb Space Telescope News



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Feb 5, 2016)

When it is launched in 2018, it will be the world's biggest and most powerful telescope, capable of peering back 200 million years after the Big Bang.
Today, Nasa engineers in Maryland installed the final mirror of the huge device - an important milestone following more than a decade of work.










Using a robotic arm reminiscent of a claw machine, the team meticulously installed all of Webb's primary mirror segments onto the telescope structure.
Each of the hexagonal-shaped mirror segments measures just over 4.2 feet (1.3 meters) across - about the size of a coffee table - and weighs approximately 88 pounds (40kg)







Once in space and fully deployed, the 18 primary mirror segments will work together as one large 21.3ft diameter (6.5 meter) mirror.









The telescope is expected to be 100 times more potent than its predecessor, Hubble, and three times larger. 
Webb will study every phase in the history of our universe, including the cosmos' first luminous glows, the formation of solar systems capable of supporting life on planets like Earth, and the evolution of our own solar system.


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## Drone (Feb 24, 2016)




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## Drone (Feb 27, 2016)




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## Drone (Mar 15, 2016)

New video


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## Drone (Mar 19, 2016)

Duh private video, wtf?!

Anywho new video


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## Drone (Mar 29, 2016)

four old videos






































and here's a new one:

James Webb Space Telescope's Instruments Removed From Super-Cold Chamber


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## Drone (Apr 6, 2016)




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## Drone (Apr 27, 2016)

NASA engineers recently unveiled the giant golden mirror of NASA's James Webb Space Telescope as part of the integration and testing of the infrared telescope.






The 18 mirrors that make up the primary mirror were individually protected with a black covers when they were assembled on the telescope structure. Now, for the first time since the primary mirror was completed, the covers have been lifted.






Standing tall and glimmering gold inside NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center's clean room in Greenbelt, Maryland, this mirror will be the largest yet sent into space. Currently, engineers are busy assembling and testing the other pieces of the telescope.

This widely anticipated telescope will soon go through many rigorous tests to ensure it survives its launch into space. In the next few months, engineers will install other key elements, and take additional measurements to ensure the telescope is ready for space.


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## Drone (Apr 30, 2016)

new image and video


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## Drone (May 8, 2016)

Still testing the beast:


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## Drone (Jun 7, 2016)

new videos:


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## Drone (Jul 12, 2016)

New video and infographics







The James Webb Space Telescope's "backplane" arrived Aug. 22, 2013 at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., carried aboard a Lockheed C-5 aircraft.


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## Drone (Aug 1, 2016)

New timelapse


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## Drone (Oct 7, 2016)

new images and timelapse


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## Drone (Nov 2, 2016)

Milestone: *Completion of Telescope Element*


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## Drone (Nov 3, 2016)

News:


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## Drone (Nov 6, 2016)

The two sides of the Webb Telescope


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## Drone (Nov 19, 2016)

James Webb Space Telescope Construction B roll


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## dont whant to set it"' (Nov 19, 2016)

That gold!  omg gold put to use ,who would of tought gold would be times exponentialy more usefull as a polished coating of mirrors in cosmos rather than the useless human invented "comodity"? (Going on a limb here but here it goes: retarded humas beeing retarded). Had that "brewing".


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## Drone (Dec 5, 2016)




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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 5, 2017)

The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST), expected to launch in 2018, has failed its latest test.

Computer sensors forced the shut-down of a machine during vibration testing to see whether the telescope could withstand the vibration expected during launch.

The telescope, the largest space telescope ever built, was not damaged and vibration tests are expected to resume later in January, Nasa has said.

During the vibration testing on 3 December at Nasa Goddard, accelerometers attached to the telescope detected unexpected responses and the test shut itself down to protect the hardware.







The shut-down came a fraction of a second after a higher-than-expected response was detected at a particular frequency of vibration, about one note lower than the lowest note on a piano. 

'Currently, the team is continuing their analyses with the goal of having a review of their findings, conclusions and plans for resuming vibration testing in January,' said Eric Smith, program director for Nasa's James Webb Space Telescope, in Washington.

'This is why we test -- to know how things really are, as opposed to how we think they are,' said Paul Geithner, deputy project manager – technical for the Webb telescope at Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland.

http://www.ibtimes.com/james-webb-s...lose-identifying-source-dec-3-anomaly-2469366


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Mar 29, 2017)

The James Webb Telescope has completed critical acoustic and vibration tests in a major step toward readying the craft for spaceflight.

These tests at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center simulated the shaking and ‘ear-splitting noise’ the telescope will experience during launch.

Next, it will move on to further environmental tests this spring before it is shipped to the Johnson Space Center, where it will be subjected to end-to-end optical testing in a vacuum.







For the vibration tests, the telescope was mounted on a system known as a shaker table, to simulate the vibration that will happen during launch on the Ariane V rocket.

In the test, it was subjected to vibrations ranging from 5 to 100 times per second.

Then, in the acoustic test, the researchers wrapped it in a clean tent and pushed it into the Acoustic Test Chamber, which is closed off by insulated steel doors that are nearly a foot thick.


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## Drone (May 31, 2017)

Webb Moves to Johnson Space Center. It will spend 100 days in a freezer.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Aug 4, 2017)

Nasa has completed its first end-to-end communication between the telescope and its mission operations centre. 


The team verified the telescope was recording and transmitting properly to the spacecraft bus, which is currently located at Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems in Redondo Beach, California.

These communications are required to support its launch and then operate it once it's in orbit.  







The ground segment test consisted of two parts—the Space Network (SN) portion and the Deep Space Network (DSN) portion. 
The DSN comprises three ground stations, located about 120 longitudinal degrees apart from each other on Earth - one each in Canberra, Madrid, and Goldstone. 

The placement of these guarantees the Webb telescope will be able to contact at least one station at all times, to remain in constant communication with Earth.

For this test, the telescope communicated with a specially designed trailer that mimics these ground stations, rather than the ground stations themselves.


Another communications test will take place at the telescope's planned launch site in Kourou, French Guiana, about a month before launch in late 2018.

This test will demonstrate the expected connectivity with the telescope at first contact with it, which will occur approximately three-and-a-half minutes after launch.


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## Drone (Sep 20, 2017)




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## Drone (Oct 27, 2017)




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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Nov 21, 2017)

James Webb Space Telescope has completed its nearly 100-day testing series in the cryogenic vacuum chamber, where temperatures dip hundreds of degrees below the freezing point.

The team unsealed the 40-ton door of Chamber A on Saturday, marking the end of a critical test stage ahead of the telescope’s launch.

The vault-like door was closed off on July 10, allowing researchers to assess the telescope’s optics and instruments all together in conditions simulating deep space









Inside the chamber, the telescope was cooled with liquid nitrogen and cold gaseous helium.

To detect infrared light from faraway objects, the telescope must be kept very cold, according to NASA.

The James Webb Telescope and most of its instruments have an operating temperature of roughly 40 Kelvin – about minus 387 Fahrenheit (minus 233 Celsius).

But, the mid-infrared instrument (MIRI) must be kept even colder.

This instrument uses a cryocooler to keep it below 7 Kelvin, or minus 447 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 266 degrees Celsius).

This summer’s tests were designed to see how the optical telescope and integrated science instrument module (OTIS) operated in the cold vacuum environment.










The 18 gold primary mirror segments were tested as well, to ensure they act as a single mirror.

The engineers began cooling the chamber on July 20 after removing the air. The process that took roughly 30 days; then the telescope remained in a cryo-stable state for another 30 days. The team began to warm the chamber back up on September 27, before pumping air back in.

Then, on November 18, they unsealed the door.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jan 11, 2018)

The $8.8 billion (£6.5bn) telescope has been successfully tested in a giant vacuum chamber at the Johnson Space Centre - proving it will function in deep space.

Engineers are now confident it will be able to capture starlight in focus and track astronomical targets describing the completion of tests as a 'significant milestone'






The James Webb Telescope and most of its instruments have an operating temperature of roughly 40 Kelvin – about minus 387 Fahrenheit (minus 233 Celsius). 
the mid-infrared instrument (MIRI) must be kept even colder. This instrument uses a cryocooler to keep it below 7 Kelvin, or minus 447 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 266 degrees Celsius). 


Inside the chamber, the team monitored the telescope using thermal sensors and specialised cameras, to track the temperature and the physical position as each component moved.

‘After 15 years of planning, chamber refurbishment, hundreds of hours of risk-reduction testing, the dedication of more than 100 individuals through more than 90 days of testing, and surviving Hurricane Harvey, the OTIS cryogenic test has been an outstanding success,’ said Dr Ochs. 

The engineers began cooling the chamber on July 20 after removing the air.

The process that took roughly 30 days; then the telescope remained in a cryo-stable state for another 30 days.


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## W1zzard (Jan 11, 2018)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> successfully tested in a giant vacuum chamber at the Johnson Space Centre


Yeah that was right during Hurricane Harvey. Engineers staid behind to ensure the cooldown process wasn't interrupted


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## Drone (Jan 11, 2018)




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## Drone (Jan 14, 2018)




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## Divide Overflow (Jan 14, 2018)

Still over a year to launch.  Eagerly waiting for the engineers to get this into space and handover a fully operational device.  The wait has been painfully long.


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## Drone (Jan 20, 2018)

New videos:


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## Divide Overflow (May 7, 2018)

In another potential setback to the James Webb Space Telescope program, engineers found some parts that came off the spacecraft after recent environmental testing.  The parts were “screws and washers” but they apparently came from the main bus and complex sun shield.  NASA is assessing to determine if there will be any further change to the current launch target of approximately May 2020. 

http://spacenews.com/jwst-suffers-new-problem-during-spacecraft-testing/


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## Space Lynx (May 12, 2018)

Divide Overflow said:


> In another potential setback to the James Webb Space Telescope program, engineers found some parts that came off the spacecraft after recent environmental testing.  The parts were “screws and washers” but they apparently came from the main bus and complex sun shield.  NASA is assessing to determine if there will be any further change to the current launch target of approximately May 2020.
> 
> http://spacenews.com/jwst-suffers-new-problem-during-spacecraft-testing/



Why are there screws and washers... shouldn't vast majority of all this be welded together at fine levels of detail...


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## Final_Fighter (May 12, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Why are there screws and washers... shouldn't vast majority of all this be welded together at fine levels of detail...



i believe its because welds are more susceptible to cracking in this case because of the design.


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## Divide Overflow (Jun 29, 2018)

The launch estimate for the James Webb space telescope has been pushed back from May 2020 to March 2021 and the development costs have increased by another 800 million.  "Better, faster, cheaper" went out the window a long time ago.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/...escope-review-commits-to-launch-in-early-2021


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## W1zzard (Jun 29, 2018)

Divide Overflow said:


> The launch estimate for the James Webb space telescope has been pushed back from May 2020 to March 2021 and the development costs have increased by another 800 million.  "Better, faster, cheaper" went out the window a long time ago.
> 
> https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/...escope-review-commits-to-launch-in-early-2021


Indeed, very sad. I've followed a lot of JWST related lectures over the years and everybody seemed to confident.


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## ARF (May 2, 2020)

JWST has to happen. Years of delays but let's hope once it's in position, it has all the cutting edge 2021 technology and maximum sensitivity.

Screws and washers, really? If not welding, any glue to help and fit them in place?


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## dont whant to set it"' (May 3, 2020)

Somethings are not as simple by just ductapeing some together.


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## Bones (May 3, 2020)

dont whant to set it"' said:


> Somethings are not as simple by just ductapeing some together.


This is true - Just ask the guys that had to fix the Hubble Telescope. 
Cheaper and easier to do it here if possible.


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## ARF (May 3, 2020)

Are there any projections, expectations or a forecast about how many percentage points the launch will be successful?



dont whant to set it"' said:


> Somethings are not as simple by just ductapeing some together.




Yeah, and this is why screws and washers fly out of the device, and some membranes tear apart... 
You know when you make statements like the above one, you first make sure that everything you do is perfect.


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## W1zzard (May 3, 2020)

Bones said:


> had to fix the Hubble Telescope.


JWST won't be in LEO, but at L2, so no way to service it


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## ARF (May 3, 2020)

W1zzard said:


> JWST won't be in LEO, but at L2, so no way to service it




Is it really the distance a problem for potential astronauts journey to fix it? Or maybe the telescope itself is not subject to any kind of repair?

There is no plan B.
But given the expenses, there should be both plan B and plan C.

Why didn't they think about an idea to make it operational closer to Earth and then use some type of spacecraft or rocket to move it wherever they would like?


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## Bones (May 3, 2020)

ARF said:


> Is it really the distance a problem for potential astronauts journey to fix it? Or maybe the telescope itself is not subject to any kind of repair?
> 
> *There is no plan B.*
> But given the expenses, there should be both plan B and plan C.
> ...


Thats the thing - Once it's up there, it's up there. 
Only thing they can hope for is for it all to be right once in place so there is no need to worry about it. Unfortunately Murphy's Law has a hand in it too and is present all too often with.... Everything, like it or not.
I recall one of the NASA guys saying something along the lines of "All you can do is what you can do and hope for the best once it's done". 
That's the premise of any endeavor like it - esp on the latter part of it. 

Chances are they'll get it right and all will be fine but still.....
Nevermind plans B and C - Mr. Murphy is out there, waiting for his chance to strike and he'll take it if he can which constitutes a plan F no one wants.


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## ARF (May 3, 2020)

Bones said:


> Thats the thing - Once it's up there, it's up there.
> Only thing they can hope for is for it all to be right once in place so there is no need to worry about it. Unfortunately Murphy's Law has a hand in it too and is present all too often with.... Everything, like it or not.
> I recall one of the NASA guys saying something along the lines of "All you can do is what you can do and hope for the best once it's done".
> That's the premise of any endeavor like it - esp on the latter part of it.
> ...




This is so unprofessional. After all, it's all our taxpayers' money which are thrown out of the window for the luck sake.

Look at how well the New Horizons space probe dealt with the greatest distance to Pluto and beyond, and despite everything, it's still working.


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## Bones (May 4, 2020)

ARF said:


> This is so unprofessional. After all, it's all our taxpayers' money which are thrown out of the window for the luck sake.
> 
> Look at how well the New Horizons space probe dealt with the greatest distance to Pluto and beyond, and despite everything, it's still working.



I don't know why you think it's so easy to just go up to the space garage, pull the telescope in, pop the hood and fix it.
It's nowhere near that simple to do, extremely expensive AND risky each time you do it too.

Best to work out any problems down here IF you can before it goes up.

New Horizons was an example of how things go when it's all going right but even then, there was no and still is no plan B or C to bring it in for it's 1,000,000,000,000,000 mile service. Wherever it goes from here it's on it's own like the Voyager probes which, BTW both are still working to this day.

The Voyager probes are what I'd call "Done Right".


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## xrobwx71 (May 10, 2020)

#1. The Hubble from conception to launch took 50 years. https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/hubble-history-timeline

#2 Perhaps use the screws and washers from these devices? https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/frequently-asked-questions/fast-facts/


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## Drone (Jun 10, 2020)

Tower Extension Test a Success for NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope

Following augmented personal safety procedures due to COVID-19, the James Webb Space Telescope’s Northrop Grumman team in California continued integration and testing work with significantly reduced on-site personnel and shifts. The NASA/Northrop Grumman team recently resumed near-full operations. NASA is evaluating potential impacts on the March 2021 launch date, and will continually assess the schedule and adjust decisions as the situation unfolds.


















						Tower Extension Test a Success for NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope
					

To test the James Webb Space Telescope’s readiness for its journey in space, technicians successfully commanded it to deploy and extend a critical part of the observatory known as the Deployable Tower Assembly.




					www.nasa.gov


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## Drone (Jul 16, 2020)

JWST is Folded for Final Testing


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## Space Lynx (Jul 17, 2020)

Drone said:


> JWST is Folded for Final Testing



That was a fantastic demonstration at the end. I didn't realize how far out it would be. Very cool. So if we see light sources 16+ billion lightyears away, does that mean big bang theory is ******? lol


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## ARF (Jul 18, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> That was a fantastic demonstration at the end. I didn't realize how far out it would be. Very cool. So if we see light sources 16+ billion lightyears away, does that mean big bang theory is ******? lol



Probably it means that the Universe is older than the expected by the BB Theory.

But its start is further delayed, now for Q4 2021 as earliest.

*James Webb Space Telescope Delayed Again to October 31, 2021*








						James Webb Space Telescope Delayed Again to October 31, 2021 - ExtremeTech
					

The James Webb Space Telescope aims to vastly expand our understanding of the cosmos with its gigantic mirror and powerful suite of scientific instruments. However, we're going to have to wait a bit longer for the breakthroughs to start.




					www.extremetech.com


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## Space Lynx (Jul 20, 2020)

ARF said:


> Probably it means that the Universe is older than the expected by the BB Theory.
> 
> But its start is further delayed, now for Q4 2021 as earliest.
> 
> ...




dang... october 2021... this really does make me sad.


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## ARF (Mar 2, 2021)

NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope Completes Final Functional Tests to Prepare for Launch​








						NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope Completes Final Tests for Launch
					

Testing teams successfully completed two important milestones that confirmed the observatory’s internal electronics are all functioning as intended, and that the spacecraft and its four scientific instruments can send and receive data properly through the same network they will use in space.




					www.nasa.gov
				




Let's keep our fingers crossed to have a successful mission later this year.


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## ARF (Mar 15, 2021)

Hubble Finds Earth-Sized Planet That May Be on Its Second Atmosphere
					

The Earth-sized exoplanet may have lost its original atmosphere but gained a second one through volcanism. Orbiting a red dwarf star 41 light-years away is an Earth-sized, rocky exoplanet called GJ 1132 b. In some ways, GJ 1132 b has intriguing parallels to Earth, but in other ways it is very diffe



					scitechdaily.com
				






> NASA’s upcoming James Webb Space Telescope has the ability to observe this exoplanet. Webb’s infrared vision may allow scientists to see down to the planet’s surface. “If there are magma pools or volcanism going on, those areas will be hotter,” explained Swain. “That will generate more emission, and so they’ll be looking potentially at the actual geologic activity—which is exciting!”
> 
> The team’s findings will be published in an upcoming issue of _The Astronomical Journal_.


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## ARF (Mar 16, 2021)

> NASA’s new space telescope has had a rough go. Name a problem, and this telescope—meant to be the most powerful of its kind, a worthy successor to the famous Hubble—has faced it: poor management, technical errors, budget overruns, schedule delays, and a pandemic. So, naturally, the people responsible for the telescope’s safety are now thinking about pirates.
> 
> The topic came up at a recent meeting about NASA’s James Webb space telescope, named for a former administrator of the space agency. Later this year, the telescope will travel by ship to a launch site in South America, passing through the Panama Canal to reach French Guiana. Webb, with a mirror as tall as a two-story building and a protective shield the size of a tennis court, is too large for a plane. Its departure date will be kept secret, someone said at the meeting, to protect against pirates who might want to capture the precious cargo and hold it for ransom. Christopher Conselice, an astrophysicist at the University of Manchester who attended the meeting, was at first baffled by the concern because, well, _pirates_, but it quickly clicked.
> 
> “Why would you announce that you’re going to be shipping on a certain day something that is worth over $10 billion,” he explained to me, “that you could easily put in a boat” and sail away with?











						Who Would Kidnap a Space Telescope?
					

‘‘We hope pirates don’t take it,” one astrophysicist said.




					www.theatlantic.com


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## Space Lynx (Mar 16, 2021)

ARF said:


> Who Would Kidnap a Space Telescope?
> 
> 
> ‘‘We hope pirates don’t take it,” one astrophysicist said.
> ...



I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but I am pretty sure NASA has top security. lol


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## ARF (Mar 16, 2021)

Is it really too big for a plane?
I think if it fits in the cargo space of a rocket, then it definitely should fit in one of the larger cargo planes, too!


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## ARF (Mar 29, 2021)

> PSO J318.5-22 is quite a peculiar object: It’s a rogue planet — it orbits no star — but it has the characteristics (age and low mass) of young planets found around other stars.
> Astronomers believe this mystery is a case for the James Webb Space Telescope. One of Webb’s programs will take spectroscopic observations of this “orphan planet” to characterize its atmosphere.
> Learn more about how Webb will study exoplanets: https://bit.ly/3addSCm
> Top: Image by N. Metcalfe / Pan-STARRS 1 Science Consortium.
> Bottom: Artists' impression by MPIA / V. Ch. Quetz













NASA's James Webb Space Telescope | Facebook


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 29, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> That was a fantastic demonstration at the end. I didn't realize how far out it would be. Very cool. So if we see light sources 16+ billion lightyears away, does that mean big bang theory is ******? lol


To be fair, the theory of the big bang does not actually define the age of the universe, only the mechanism of it's creation. The math that predicts the age is based on the expansion and acceleration rates observed thus far. However there are still a lot of questions that need to be answered. We still don't know how big the universe actually is because the central region of the universe can not directly be observed as we have expanded and continue to accelerate away from it. On the other side, we can not observe the outer edge of the universe because it has expanded away from us and continues to accelerate further. Relative to our position, we are moving away from the center region of the universe at a speed greater than light. Therefore, light from the region will never reach us as we are accelerating away to quickly. Likewise the same dynamic exists in relation to the outer edge of the universe.

One of the more interesting aspects of study with the JWT that will hopefully show results is evidence of what is being playfully called "Red Shift Blink". This is a prediction that as the expansion of the universe continues, galaxies on the outer edge of the observable universe will, as we accelerate away, red shift into the extreme reach of the EMR specturm and will then blink out as that galaxy moves out of our observational range.

The ballpark estimate of 13.8 billion years is based on information that is a bit dated at this point in our understanding of the universe.


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## Space Lynx (Mar 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> To be fair, the theory of the big bang does not actually define the age of the universe, only the mechanism of it's creation. The math that predicts the age is based on the expansion and acceleration rates observed thus far. However there are still a lot of questions that need to be answered. We still don't know how big the universe actually is because the central region of the universe can not directly be observed as we have expanded and continue to accelerate away from it. On the other side, we can not observe the outer edge of the universe because it has expanded away from us and continues to accelerate further. Relative to our position, we are moving away from the center region of the universe at a speed greater than light. Therefore, light from the region will never reach us as we are accelerating away to quickly. Likewise the same dynamic exists in relation to the outer edge of the universe.
> 
> One of the more interesting aspects of study with the JWT that will hopefully show results is evidence of what is being playfully called "Red Shift Blink". This is a prediction that as the expansion of the universe continues, galaxies on the outer edge of the observable universe will, as we accelerate away, red shift into the extreme reach of the EMR specturm and will then blink out as that galaxy moves out of our observational range.
> 
> The ballpark estimate of 13.8 billion years is based on information that is a bit dated at this point in our understanding of the universe.



A) If I had a robot that somehow was powered forever
B) placed robot in rocket that somehow never ran out of fuel
C) launched rocket and waited 5 trillion years
D) would there actually be an edge to the Universe the robot would discover? would it hit a brick wall? if so, who made the brick wall, why can't I get around it?
E) it seems like the universe is infinite
F) the grades I got in high school, so I don't know
G) now sing the alphabet song with me


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 30, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> D) would there actually be an edge to the Universe the robot would discover?


Yes. However you would need to find a way to exceed the speed of light to reach it. It is theoretically possible, we humans just haven't figured it out...yet.


lynx29 said:


> would it hit a brick wall?


No. But it would hit what is theoried to be a very high energy barrier, the outwardly expanding blast wave of the big bang.


lynx29 said:


> why can't I get around it?


It should be possible to get through such a region of space, but one theory posits that you would only find empty space until you were to reach the inward falling event horizon of the original black hole our universe once was. After that it is thought that one would see the the rest of the Cosmos at large.


lynx29 said:


> E) it seems like the universe is infinite


It only seems that way. However, if you were to find a way to throw time in reverse, everything we can see would fall back into a single point in space outside our current observational range.


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## ARF (Mar 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yes. However you would need to find a way to exceed the speed of light to reach it. It is theoretically possible, we humans just haven't figured it out...yet.



No. We have figured it out - it's called time travel and teleportation, either through holes in the space-time fabric.



lexluthermiester said:


> To be fair, the theory of the big bang does not actually define the age of the universe, only the mechanism of it's creation. The math that predicts the age is based on the expansion and acceleration rates observed thus far. However there are still a lot of questions that need to be answered. We still don't know how big the universe actually is because the central region of the universe can not directly be observed as we have expanded and continue to accelerate away from it. On the other side, we can not observe the outer edge of the universe because it has expanded away from us and continues to accelerate further. Relative to our position, we are moving away from the center region of the universe at a speed greater than light. Therefore, light from the region will never reach us as we are accelerating away to quickly. Likewise the same dynamic exists in relation to the outer edge of the universe.
> 
> One of the more interesting aspects of study with the JWT that will hopefully show results is evidence of what is being playfully called "Red Shift Blink". This is a prediction that as the expansion of the universe continues, galaxies on the outer edge of the observable universe will, as we accelerate away, red shift into the extreme reach of the EMR specturm and will then blink out as that galaxy moves out of our observational range.
> 
> The ballpark estimate of 13.8 billion years is based on information that is a bit dated at this point in our understanding of the universe.




I think it's much more important to observe the nearby planets for suitable living conditions, and then travel to there to see if there are other forms of life.

The Universe is too large for our small brains to even have the imagination for what it actually is!


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## Divide Overflow (May 29, 2021)

Closely tracking the JWST status and there may be another delay to it's launch later this year.  This time it's not the fault of the telescope itself!  Here's a great recap:


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## Space Lynx (Jun 4, 2021)

Highly recommend Dr. Becky... she talks with an actual person working on the project. Excellent watch.


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## ARF (Sep 28, 2021)

18 December?

NASA Readies James Webb Space Telescope for December Launch | NASA


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## Space Lynx (Sep 28, 2021)

ARF said:


> 18 December?
> 
> NASA Readies James Webb Space Telescope for December Launch | NASA



yep December 18th is going to be a good day.


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## 1freedude (Sep 29, 2021)

Just saw this on twit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442961745098653701
A couple hours notice this time!  I have no idea what twitterspaces are...


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## Space Lynx (Sep 29, 2021)

I have no idea what twitterspaces are either. I guess we are old and outdated.  /shrug


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 2, 2021)

This happened yesterday.








Destin being his usual smart self..


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## Space Lynx (Oct 2, 2021)

So one week ago tomorrow my grandpa died, and we were looking forward to the JWST launch, we have talked about it a few times over the years but it kept getting delayed.

Was really hoping he would have made it long enough for the first images to come back. I remember installing astronomy starchart software on his PC in like the early 2000's.  lol

Launch day for JWST is going to be a very emotional day for me.


----------



## ARF (Oct 12, 2021)

NASA's James Webb Space Telescope | Facebook


----------



## ARF (Nov 3, 2021)

James Webb: Hubble telescope successor faces 'two weeks of terror' - BBC News


----------



## ARF (Dec 18, 2021)

It is coming 




james webb space telescope launch date - Google Search


----------



## xrobwx71 (Dec 19, 2021)

ARF said:


> It is coming
> 
> View attachment 229368
> james webb space telescope launch date - Google Search


Rescheduled for the 24th. https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/about/launch.html


----------



## INSTG8R (Dec 19, 2021)

I have waited so long for this to be put into service. I can’t wait to see what it can do. I’m glad it’s finally almost ready


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 19, 2021)

xrobwx71 said:


> Rescheduled for the 24th. https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/about/launch.html



I hope we wake up to a good Christmas present! I'm so scared the rocket is going to fail... the way the world is going, it just would be the final shit show icing on the cake... sigh

I am hopeful though, if anyone can give humanity redemptions its the astronomical sciences. It's be that way for many decades now, the rally of Hope itself always centering around this stuff, and I think that is because deep down we truly are self-aware entities and astronomical observances enhance this state of existence.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 20, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I hope we wake up to a good Christmas present!


To be fair, it will take several months for the JWT to get into it's orbital position and get fully deployed.


lynx29 said:


> I'm so scared the rocket is going to fail...


I think EVERYONE is right there with you.


----------



## INSTG8R (Dec 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think EVERYONE is right there with you.


Indeed! I’ve been excited about this telescope since it was announced  over 20 years ago…


----------



## qubit (Dec 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I think EVERYONE is right there with you.





INSTG8R said:


> Indeed! I’ve been excited about this telescope since it was announced  over 20 years ago…


+1 to both of you. It will be the Hubble on steroids.

Fun fact: some galaxies are so faint, that only _one photon_ hits the detector at a time! Yup, there's literally nothing there to see in realtime so the picture has to be built up by having the telescope stare at it for long enough. That's some technical feat, I tell you.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> To be fair, it will take several months for the JWT to get into it's orbital position and get fully deployed.
> 
> I think EVERYONE is right there with you.



the Christmas present is implied as being the rocket not blowing up and it actually makes it it to where its flying to. and the way the world is going, honestly I won't be surprised if some Starlink satellite accidently hits it and was tracked wrong and it all ends cause of our basic hubris thinking we could put thousands of satellites into orbit, not to mention all the stuff that has been blown up in orbit, some things I am sure can't be tracked from those... sigh, humanity...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 20, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I won't be surprised if some Starlink satellite accidently hits it and was tracked wrong and it all ends cause of our basic hubris thinking we could put thousands of satellites into orbit


Not going to happen. The orbits of the Starlink constellation are few hundred KM away from JWT ascent trajectory.


----------



## xrobwx71 (Dec 20, 2021)

How many of you are going to have Santa as a *secondary *thought on Christmas Eve?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 20, 2021)

xrobwx71 said:


> How many of you are going to have Santa as a *secondary *thought on Christmas Eve?


Not me, but the JWT launch is going to be a close second... I do the Santa thing for my family and enjoy every minute of it. My family comes first.


----------



## ARF (Dec 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> To be fair, it will take several months for the JWT to get into it's orbital position and get fully deployed.
> 
> I think EVERYONE is right there with you.



Several weeks.

Keeping my fingers crossed for full successful deployment in these 14 days!


----------



## ARF (Dec 22, 2021)

New launch window on Saturday, Christmas day:



> The new targeted launch date is December 25, as early as possible within the following launch window:
> 
> Between 12:20 p.m. and 12:52 p.m. Universal (UTC)


James Webb Space Telescope Launch Postponed – Here’s Why and the New Launch Date (scitechdaily.com)


----------



## xrobwx71 (Dec 22, 2021)

ARF said:


> New launch window on Saturday, Christmas day:
> 
> 
> James Webb Space Telescope Launch Postponed – Here’s Why and the New Launch Date (scitechdaily.com)


To be expected but.... Arrrgh


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 22, 2021)

ARF said:


> Several weeks.
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed for full successful deployment in these 14 days!


The following is why I stated several months. 





						James Webb Space Telescope Post-Launch Deployment Timeline
					






					webbtelescope.org
				



The timeframe, if everything goes well, will be June 2022 before the deployment phase is complete and the science mission begins. The JWT is not your everyday satellite launch. Start to finish is a very involved process and every step has to be done in careful order.


----------



## ne6togadno (Dec 24, 2021)




----------



## ARF (Dec 24, 2021)

> After decades of planning, engineering, many delays, and some controversy, it’s finally happening: The James Webb Space Telescope is set to launch at 7:20 am Eastern on Saturday, December 25, making it a long-awaited Christmas present for scientists around the world. (Though further delays are possible. Earlier this week, NASA was eyeing a Christmas Eve launch but changed plans due to bad weather.)
> 
> After the telescope launches from French Guiana to a point nearly a million miles away from Earth, it will become the largest telescope in space, capable of showing humanity regions of space (and time) never seen before.
> 
> NASA, which is launching the telescope in collaboration with the European Space Agency and Canada, will broadcast the launch live, with a feed scheduled to start at 6 am Eastern. You can stream it below.



James Webb Space Telescope Deployment Sequence (Nominal) - YouTube

The James Webb Space Telescope is finally launching on December 25. Here’s how to watch. - Vox


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 24, 2021)

Does humanity deserve to know more?


We will find out soon.


----------



## ARF (Dec 24, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Does humanity deserve to know more?



It is inevitable, sooner or later, there has always been some progress.

The question should rather be - do we want to travel physically to other worlds? Maybe there are better planets somewhere out there.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 24, 2021)

ARF said:


> It is inevitable, sooner or later, there has always been some progress.
> 
> The question should rather be - do we want to travel physically to other worlds? Maybe there are better planets somewhere out there.



I think those that truly understand physics know this is an impossible task, but you can keep dreaming as the only habitable world you have keeps burning, I suppose.


----------



## ARF (Dec 24, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I think those that truly understand physics know this is an impossible task, but you can keep dreaming as the only habitable world you have keeps burning, I suppose.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Dec 24, 2021)

I'm both excited by the potential opportunities the JWST offers and terrified at everything that needs to go right to realize those opportunities.  
I'm eager for the team to turn over a fully operational telescope for science observations.  
Merry Christmas to all!


----------



## xtreemchaos (Dec 24, 2021)

ive me fingers crossed for sure, im sure it will go fine its not like they have sent anything up there before broken eh .


----------



## neatfeatguy (Dec 24, 2021)

They'll get that telescope up and running and the first image they report back will be this:


----------



## delshay (Dec 25, 2021)

I should be watching the launch LIVE, but here is my quick link sofar but i'm sure there will be better LIVE launch.

LIVE - Launch of the James Webb Space Telescope - YouTube


----------



## ARF (Dec 25, 2021)

Time to launch: a little over hour and a half! 

Live coverage: Countdown begins for launch of James Webb Space Telescope – Spaceflight Now


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 25, 2021)

Well , clean ,norminal launch, noice.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 25, 2021)

Just saw the first solar wing pop out earlier than planned. Hope that's not a glitch.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 25, 2021)

well I was not expecting to watch a religious sermon for this launch, but there it is... lol

bill nelson? no idea who that is... eh. glad its over.  well, i missed all the good parts of the launch and tuned in during the religious sermon part, weird. well back to bed i go

this is all to hip for me, i'll just wait for the pictures in 6 months.


----------



## ARF (Dec 25, 2021)

14 days to planned deployment:





JWSTDeployment - James Webb Space Telescope - Wikipedia
James Webb Space Telescope - Wikipedia


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Does humanity deserve to know more?



I think so; it is sobering and helps stop us make up a story of the world that is just not true.


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Dec 25, 2021)

A quick rundown to bring likes of me more up to speed on that by wonderful Anton Petrov










If someone doesn't yet, I recommend his channel, he does great job as science communicator, making it fairly simple to understand for non-experts like myself.


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

Still trying to understand why fuel is needed for orbiting the Lagrange point.


----------



## ARF (Dec 25, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Still trying to understand why fuel is needed for orbiting the Lagrange point.



For changing and updating the trajectory. After all, you need a controlled movement, not free movement.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 25, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Still trying to understand why fuel is needed for orbiting the Lagrange point.


It's orbit, includes a further rotational circuit sort of vertically to the solar system , not sure why ,kinda orbiting Lagrange point , probably for communication reasons.


----------



## ARF (Dec 25, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> It's orbit, includes a further rotational circuit sort of vertically to the solar system , not sure why ,kinda orbiting Lagrange point , probably for communication reasons.



There should be some type of minimum energy required to keep its scientific mission operational. It needs to change its orientation, of course, it will be directed and focused in different directions, not at one point in space in whole its life,...


----------



## Steevo (Dec 25, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Still trying to understand why fuel is needed for orbiting the Lagrange point.


Pressure from the sun like solar wind, solar eruptions of plasma those would be good to avoid so some fast steering/propulsion is required.


----------



## authorized (Dec 25, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> It's orbit, includes a further rotational circuit sort of vertically to the solar system , not sure why ,kinda orbiting Lagrange point , probably for communication reasons.





> And Webb will orbit around L2, not sit stationary precisely at L2. Webb's orbit is represented in this screenshot from our deployment video (below), roughly to scale; it is actually similar in size to the Moon's orbit around the Earth! This orbit (which takes Webb about 6 months to complete once) keeps the telescope out of the shadows of both the Earth and Moon. Unlike Hubble, which goes in and out of Earth shadow every 90 minutes, Webb will have an unimpeded view that will allow science operations 24/7.











						Orbit - Webb/NASA
					

The James Webb Space Telescope (sometimes called Webb or JWST) is a large infrared telescope with a 6.5-meter primary mirror.  Webb is the premier observatory of the next decade, serving thousands of astronomers worldwide. It will study every phase in the history of our Universe, ranging from...



					www.jwst.nasa.gov


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

Ah yes! those big heat shields would pick up a lot of light pressure.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Dec 25, 2021)

A quick link to Goddard Space FLight Center's mission status page for the James Webb Space Telescope showing where it currently is and what stage it's at in deployment:








						Where Is Webb?  NASA/Webb
					

During Webb's launch, deployment and commissioning, 'WhereIsWebb' tracked Webb's 'flight' to L2 orbit, its state and progress during its deployment and commissioning process, and finally the release of its first images. This process is now complete. During this process, the page constantly...



					www.jwst.nasa.gov


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

ARF said:


> It needs to change its orientation, of course, it will be directed and focused in different directions, not at one point in space in whole its life,...



Which reminds me of the falling cat paradox... this is a way to alter orientation without using fuel, just solar energy.


----------



## Beertintedgoggles (Dec 25, 2021)

This quick article explains the need for fuel/thrusters at the L2 point of the Earth / Moon system but the same applies to L2 point of the Earth / Sun system which the James will be orbiting:









						Ask Astro: How and why do satellites orbit Lagrange points?
					

Astronomy.com is for anyone who wants to learn more about astronomy events, cosmology, planets, galaxies, asteroids, astrophotography, the Big Bang, black holes, comets, constellations, eclipses, exoplanets, nebulae, meteors, quasars, observing, telescopes, NASA, Hubble, space missions...



					astronomy.com


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

Ah, unstable... thanks that explains it all.


----------



## ARF (Dec 25, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Ah, unstable... thanks that explains it all.



Of course, that it is unstable. The communication satellites at 35,000 km above the Earth also use fuel for position maintenance, otherwise other forces will destabilise them to something not planned.


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

Perturbations and instabilities are two different things


----------



## ARF (Dec 25, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Perturbations and instabilities are two different things



To a great extent these two terms overlap each other:



> a deviation of a system, moving object, or process from its regular or normal state or path, caused by an outside influence.
> "these shifts and swings in wildlife populations are possibly related to climatic perturbations"


Perturbation - Google Search


----------



## Shrek (Dec 25, 2021)

Not here to argue, just discuss.

The Earth's orbit is stable, and while it is perturbed by the other planets it will not be thrown out of the Solar system (there are caveats to this); but an unstable orbit will be lost without a careful balancing act. i.e., it is easy for me to stay at the bottom of a valley despite being buffered by the wind, but not so easy for me to stay at the top of a hill if buffeted.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 25, 2021)

ARF said:


> There should be some type of minimum energy required to keep its scientific mission operational. It needs to change its orientation, of course, it will be directed and focused in different directions, not at one point in space in whole its life,...


Yeah but also, it's not stationary at Lagrange point it orbits Lagrange point by quite a margin above and below the solar systems rotational axis so orbiting two points simultaneously and Accurately , probably to maintain sunlight on its panels and to stop the earth obstructing the sun's light.

I quote
"Webb will orbit around L2, not sit stationary precisely at L2. Webb's orbit is represented in this screenshot from our deployment video (below), roughly to scale; it is actually similar in size to the Moon's orbit around the Earth! This orbit (which takes Webb about 6 months to complete once) keeps the telescope out of the shadows of both the Earth and Moon. Unlike Hubble, which goes in and out of Earth shadow every 90 minutes, Webb will have an unimpeded view that will allow science operations 24/7."

From @authorized s link.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Dec 25, 2021)

ARF said:


> It needs to change its orientation, of course, it will be directed and focused in different directions, not at one point in space in whole its life


The JWST has six reaction control wheels which are responsible for keeping the telescope pointed in the desired direction.  It's limited fuel supply is used for mid course correction burns and station keeping once it is in L2 orbit.  This fuel supply will last for approximately 10 years.

From NASA:
"Webb continues in coast phase, and is now oriented correctly with respect to the Sun. The six reaction wheels of the spacecraft’s attitude control system have been powered on, and they are now responsible for keeping the spacecraft pointing in the right direction – so that its massive sunshield, which is the size of a tennis court and which will deploy over the course of the next week – will be able to keep the telescope protected from solar radiation and heat."

UPDATE:
At 7:50 pm EST, Webb’s first mid-course correction burn began. It lasted 65 minutes and is now complete. This burn is one of two milestones that are time critical — the first was the solar array deployment, which happened shortly after launch. 

This burn adjusts Webb’s trajectory toward the second Lagrange point, commonly known as L2. After launch, Webb needs to make its own mid-course thrust correction maneuvers to get to its orbit. This is by design: Webb received an intentional slight under-burn from the Ariane-5 that launched it into space, because it’s not possible to correct for overthrust. If Webb gets too much thrust, it can’t turn around to move back toward Earth because that would directly expose its telescope optics and structure to the Sun, overheating them and aborting the science mission before it can even begin.  

Therefore, we ease up to the correct velocity in three stages, being careful never to deliver too much thrust — there will be three mid-course correction maneuvers in total. 

After this burn, no key milestones are time critical, so the order, location, timing, and duration of deployments may change.


----------



## delshay (Dec 26, 2021)

For those interested, not sure if it's important but here's a LIVE tracker

LIVE! James Webb Telescope Tracker #NASA #WEBB - YouTube


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 26, 2021)

This is the direct link to the JWST deployment page from NASA.









						Deployment Explorer Webb/NASA
					

Interactively explore Webb's deployments on this page. Webb is NASA's largest and most powerful space science telescope ever constructed. Webb’s enormous size and frigid operating temperature present extraordinary engineering challenges. After launching from French Guiana, the observatory will...



					www.jwst.nasa.gov


----------



## ARF (Dec 26, 2021)

James Webb Space Telescope notches crucial maneuver to set its path | Space



> According to NASA, this burn, dubbed Mid-Course Correction Burn 1a or MCC1a, was the most important of the three burns the spacecraft will make during its journey to L2, and the only one that needed to be particularly carefully timed.
> 
> A spacecraft often needs to conduct a trajectory maneuver in the hours after launch to account for slight differences in where its rocket deposits the machinery, however, this burn for Webb included a crucial constraint, according to NASA: *The spacecraft can't slow itself down because doing so would require turning around, exposing its super-heat-sensitive instruments to the Sun.*
> 
> Instead, the observatory can only increase its speed, so the observatory's launch sequence was designed to err on the side of the Ariane 5 rocket providing just a little less power than required, rather than just a little more. The MCC1a burn was the observatory's opportunity to finetune its trajectory toward L2.



Does this mean that the JWST will never look at the direction of the Universe towards the Sun?
That would significantly limit its scientific mission.

It basically means that it would wait for the Earth to pass to that position on its orbit around the Sun exposing its availability to look at that part of the space.

Well, I think we need at least one more JWST sent to the opposite position on the Earth's orbit


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 26, 2021)

ARF said:


> James Webb Space Telescope notches crucial maneuver to set its path | Space
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's effective arse end / football field sized sun shade will always face the sun.


----------



## Bones (Dec 26, 2021)

ARF said:


> James Webb Space Telescope notches crucial maneuver to set its path | Space
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it woudn't, the Earth itself orbits the Sun and that part of the universe becomes "Viewable" 6 month from any given time.

Right now what can't be viewed (Lets use Dec 25th as the date here) is because of that. That part of the universe *can be* partially viewed as of around three months from that date (March 25th) and becomes *fully viewable* half a year from that date (June 25th).
Then the visibilty slowly falls back until it's once again fully blocked by the Sun as it was on that date (Dec 25th).

Same basic effect of the constellations and how they become viewable and seem to go away, but in reality they never really go away, just blocked by the Sun's light so we can't see them.

If expecting the Sun itself to BE an objective, that's not gonna happen. 
These light sensitive insturments as indicated will become damaged by the Sun if exposed that way, eliminating their ability to detect distant objects and those will be extremely faint and require the telescope to be sensitive to light for even finding them.


----------



## ARF (Dec 26, 2021)

Bones said:


> No it woudn't, the Earth itself orbits the Sun and that part of the universe becomes "Viewable" 6 month from any given time.
> 
> Right now what can't be viewed (Lets use Dec 25th as the date here) is because of that. That part of the universe *can be* partially viewed as of around three months from that date (March 25th) and becomes *fully viewable* half a year from that date (June 25th).
> Then the visibilty slowly falls back until it's once again fully blocked by the Sun as it was on that date (Dec 25th).



Yeah, and it will miss the events that happen during its "shadow" pass period.


----------



## Bones (Dec 26, 2021)

ARF said:


> Yeah, and it will *miss the events* that happen during its "shadow" pass period.


That true but any insturment can only do so much. 

We already have a satellite orbiting the Sun gathering data on it now anyway but it's a few years old too, I suspect there is already a newer one in the works by now. As for trying to peek behind the Sun at any give time I'm not aware of anything they have capable of doing that.


----------



## ARF (Dec 26, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Does humanity deserve to know more?
> 
> 
> We will find out soon.



I hope they will publish all the discoveries and findings and not classify new things because of politics.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 26, 2021)

ARF said:


> To a great extent these two terms overlap each other


No they really don't.

A "Perturbation" directly infers an outside influence perturbing the object in question.

An "Instability" directly infers that said object is not stable regardless of outside influence. 

The differences might be subtle, but they are distinct.


----------



## ARF (Dec 26, 2021)




----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 26, 2021)

ARF said:


> I hope they will publish all the discoveries and findings and not classify new things because of politics.




Does anyone know if anything from the Hubble was classified? I suppose they would never tell us if something was... being a huge field of academics, I doubt anything can be classified... hmm... it would be quite sad if they discovered evidence, likely evidence I should say, of other civilizations but kept it hidden from us. I suppose government does tend to lean on 1984 metrics though, why they are obsessed with power is beyond me, they should instead be more obsessed with their 30 trillion in debt and declining value of the dollar, hehehehe

all nations fall... ah Rome... how I miss traversing the realms of thee halls


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 26, 2021)

I would think it'd be hard to classify anything re hubble or James Web due to the huge amount of academic types involved that would likely whistleblow such an action.



lynx29 said:


> all nations fall... ah Rome... how I miss traversing the realms of thee halls


But Ancient Rome's space program sucks (I'm kidding people, I'm well aware it was pretty astrologically aware for its time)


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 26, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> I would think it'd be hard to classify anything re hubble or James Web due to the huge amount of academic types involved that would likely whistleblow such an action.
> 
> 
> But Ancient Rome's space program sucks (I'm kidding people, I'm well aware it was pretty astrologically aware for its time)



^^ I actually have a lot of respect for the navigators of ancient/medieval times, being so connected to the Cosmos you could navigate the realms with simply the stars and not even a compass... I find truly truly special and something that is quite sad that has been lost to us. Being that connected with nature and the Cosmos must have been very special indeed...


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 26, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> ^^ I actually have a lot of respect for the navigators of ancient/medieval times, being so connected to the Cosmos you could navigate the realms with simply the stars and not even a compass... I find truly truly special and something that is quite sad that has been lost to us. Being that connected with nature and the Cosmos must have been very special indeed...


I think you'd find it is not as lost as you think amonst the scientific community.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 27, 2021)

Stay on-topic all.

This is about JWST.


----------



## KLiKzg (Dec 27, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Does anyone know if anything *from the Hubble was classified?* I suppose they would never tell us if something was... being a huge field of academics, I doubt anything can be classified... hmm... it would be quite sad if they discovered evidence, likely evidence I should say, of other civilizations but kept it hidden from us. I suppose government does tend to lean on 1984 metrics though, why they are obsessed with power is beyond me, they should instead be more obsessed with their 30 trillion in debt and declining value of the dollar, hehehehe
> 
> all nations fall... ah Rome... how I miss traversing the realms of thee halls


A Hubble itself came from classified project & that is why it was "short-sighted". & it has got twins, several ones.

But back to topic. Some 2 years back, when Hubble started to fail - an idea came to retrofit Hubble twin & launch it in space. But the NASA persisted to JWST & we are just some ~10 days away from getting 1st images from new telescope. Looking forward to it!


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 27, 2021)

KLiKzg said:


> A Hubble itself came from classified project & that is why it was "short-sighted". & it has got twins, several ones.
> 
> But back to topic. Some 2 years back, when Hubble started to fail - an idea came to retrofit Hubble twin & launch it in space. But the NASA persisted to JWST & we are just some ~10 days away from getting 1st images from new telescope. Looking forward to it!



You still have about 4-6 months to wait for the first JWST images to be released. Dr. Becky verified this on her youtube channel if I remember correctly.


----------



## ARF (Dec 27, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> You still have about 4-6 months to wait for the first JWST images to be released. Dr. Becky verified this on her youtube channel if I remember correctly.



That is quite poor wasting of time. If the telescope itself has only ten years of planned life, then if you subtract these six months, you get dark perspective.

Expensive and cannot be used optimally.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> That is quite poor wasting of time. If the telescope itself has only ten years of planned life, then if you subtract these six months, you get dark perspective.
> 
> Expensive and cannot be used optimally.



I think you misunderstand, the scientists will be getting the pictures within a month, but they have rights to them to do their research, but public pictures will take 4-6 months.

I sort of wish they would just release them right away though, but the scientists do bid/take turns getting turns with the telescope, and it makes sense they deserve alone time with them to get their papers written and published in journals before releasing to public.


----------



## ARF (Dec 27, 2021)

Four-six months is an extremely long period of time. I hope you do agree that the scientists who work with it don't need thaaat much time..


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> Four-six months is an extremely long period of time. I hope you do agree that the scientists who work with it don't need thaaat much time..



I imagine the images from the JWST will require a lot of math to interpret them in regards to each individuals hypothesis, but overall yes I agree with you, most could probably summarize and release the image to the public within a few weeks.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 27, 2021)

Folks, @lynx29 is correct. It will be mid April at the earliest before the first in-focus images are are expected to roll in. That's the timeline;





						James Webb Space Telescope Post-Launch Deployment Timeline
					






					webbtelescope.org
				




The first images taken will begin at the end of Jan as the first set of mirrors are deployed and they start the alignment process. The first few months worth of images will be wildly out of focus until alignment is complete.


----------



## Lindatje (Dec 27, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> the scientists will be getting the pictures within a month, but they have rights to them to do their research, but public pictures will take 4-6 months.


They can release it directly to the “public” and the same time they can do their  research. So i see no problems at all.


----------



## Frick (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> That is quite poor wasting of time. If the telescope itself has only ten years of planned life, then if you subtract these six months, you get dark perspective.
> 
> Expensive and cannot be used optimally.



It's not like the data will be purged. And what would you do with massive data dumps anyway if you don't have the tools to interpret them? The telescope won't send jpgs ready to watch on your phone.


----------



## ARF (Dec 27, 2021)

Frick said:


> It's not like the data will be purged. And what would you do with massive data dumps anyway if you don't have the tools to interpret them? The telescope won't send jpgs ready to watch on your phone.



I do not watch anything on my phone  And even less so images from the JWST.. lol


----------



## Divide Overflow (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> That is quite poor wasting of time. If the telescope itself has only ten years of planned life, then if you subtract these six months, you get dark perspective.



NASA isn't sitting around with their thumb up their ass "wasting time".  This isn't like walking into a room and flicking a switch.  This is an incredibly complex device that needs time to reach required thermal, power and physical configuration levels that don't happen overnight.  The JWST needs intensive calibration and qualification processes to check out and verify all the instrumentation before it is turned over for scientific use.  Trying to use science data before this is meaningless. 

Data will be constantly gathered and transmitted back to earth for post processing and analysis.  It's not like it will be sitting idle for the first picture to be released to the public before it goes on for more observations.  And keep in mind that most of this data won't be in the visible optical range, meaning it will require heavy processing in order to make those beautiful pictures.


----------



## ARF (Dec 27, 2021)

Ok, if you say so...


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> Ok, if you say so...


He's right though, it is not even unfolded yet and is not in position.
I don't get your doubts on timing personally.


----------



## Beertintedgoggles (Dec 27, 2021)

I think the biggest reason that was given for the 6 month waiting time is that the telescope needs time to cool.  This telescope will be operating in the very long wavelength spectrum (IR and much lower).  In order to do this, the background thermal noise must be very low.  Imagine using a telescope near a city with all the light pollution, you have to block all that "noisy" light in order to get good results. That's the equivalent of using this telescope before it has reached its operating temp.  Any residual heat will pollute the "images" with IR noise.  I know, put it in the shade and just use it..... The operating temp is 45 Kelvin (-380 F).  It takes a while to shed that much thermal radiation into space to get to that operating temperature even with a huge sunshade blocking the thermal radiation of the Sun (and also Earth).


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> Ok, if you say so...


He DIDN'T say so. NASA did. Can we have done with the attitude? This is a thread about science. It is not a place to be brandishing the ego...


----------



## Shrek (Dec 27, 2021)

ARF said:


> Four-six months is an extremely long period of time. I hope you do agree that the scientists who work with it don't need thaaat much time..



They have a right to data they collected, and not give it right away to competitors.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 28, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> They have a right to data they collected, and not give it right away to competitors.



Yeah, I agree with this to a degree

I think the better argument is sensationalist astronomers wanting to get their 15 mins of fame might contact news organizations, and be like 'oooo look at these new images this is possible and this is possible', and hyping up a false narrative for their 15 mins of fame, where as the scientist who actually scheduled the time needs time to run the math, write a proper thesis, etc. 

The lack of trust in science is at an all time high, and I think a big part is the media and situations like this in all fields of science, so the findings need to be protected at first, then disseminated properly over time. I think we should all be happy that deep down, people, most people, seem to have this thirst inside of them for wanting to know more about the Cosmos.

-------

I propose a question to all of you now:

Does this thirst for wanting to know come from a fear of not understanding who we are? Would an image showing highly likelihood of another civilization or even just a habitable planet satisfy our thirst or cause us distress? What are we seeking really by peering so deep into the Cosmos? I know the scientist will answer this easily, but the thirst of the Common Person's answer... of why they are excited to get the images as fast as possible... 

I consider myself a Common Person, I am still seeking my own answer to this question.


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 28, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I propose a question to all of you now:
> 
> Does this thirst for wanting to know come from a fear of not understanding who we are? Would an image showing highly likelihood of another civilization or even just a habitable planet satisfy our thirst or cause us distress? What are we seeking really by peering so deep into the Cosmos?


Neither.
Finding a habitable planet or another civilization out there will only create more questions and a deeper need for answers.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 28, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Neither.
> Finding a habitable planet or another civilization out there will only create more questions and a deeper need for answers.



This is actually what I was trying to get at, I just worded it very vaguely, "understanding who we are".

I wonder... what is this feeling across time, this thirst for exploration? Why is this innate in so many of us as we continue to age? Does it truly all come back to fear of death, and knowing something new erases that fear, always pursuing that something new? I wonder what the Buddha would say about feeling and desire of exploration, maybe he would disagree with me it is not innate... we are born with a few things innate, disgust, fear, etc. What if there are other innate things we are born with, but they don't manifest until certain points in life, that can't be explained by John Locke's tabula rasa theory?

hmm...

What if exploration is enough of an answer, of always creating more questions and more answers in a never ending loop? What if that is the purpose of our frontal cortex development? much to ponder...


----------



## KLiKzg (Dec 28, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I think you misunderstand, the scientists will be getting the pictures within a month, but they have rights to them to do their research, but public pictures will take 4-6 months.
> 
> I sort of wish they would just release them right away though, but the scientists do bid/take turns getting turns with the telescope, and it makes sense they deserve alone time with them to get their papers written and published in journals before releasing to public.


FLAT-EARTHERS would say that this censorship is to prohibit the pictures of "alien round world" in another star system. 

Just needed to be a little funny about them. 



Beertintedgoggles said:


> I think the biggest reason that was given for the 6 month waiting time is that the telescope needs time to cool.  This telescope will be operating in the very long wavelength spectrum (IR and much lower).  In order to do this, the background thermal noise must be very low.  Imagine using a telescope near a city with all the light pollution, you have to block all that "noisy" light in order to get good results. That's the equivalent of using this telescope before it has reached its operating temp.  Any residual heat will pollute the "images" with IR noise.  I know, put it in the shade and just use it..... The operating temp is 45 Kelvin (-380 F).  It takes a while to shed that much thermal radiation into space to get to that operating temperature even with a huge sunshade blocking the thermal radiation of the Sun (and also Earth).


If the "deep space" within a Solar system is about 3K, while out of it is about 1,5K. Then it has enough temperature delta to achieve 45K within less then a day, if and only if the shields are working.

But we will see...maybe it needs some special alignment of sensors. Hubble was short sighted, how this one is NOT.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 28, 2021)

KLiKzg said:


> If the "deep space" within a Solar system is about 3K, while out of it is about 1,5K. Then it has enough temperature delta to achieve 45K within less then a day, if and only if the shields are working.


Thermal dissapation via radiation in space is incredibly slow.  I'm curious how you reached this conclusion.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 28, 2021)

From NASA's own page:



Spoiler: Long detailed breakdown



WHAT HAPPENS AFTER LAUNCH, HOW LONG UNTIL THERE WILL BE DATA?
In the first hour: Starting at liftoff, the Ariane rocket will provide thrust for about 26 minutes. Telemetry from Webb begins after payload fairing separation, almost 3 and a half minutes after launch. Webb will separate from the Ariane 5 launch vehicle a half hour after launch and the solar array will deploy automatically immediately afterward. We will also command the release of several systems that were locked for launch in preparation for deployments.

In the first day: Two hours after launch we will deploy the high gain antenna. Twelve hours after launch there will be the first trajectory correction maneuver by small rocket engines aboard Webb itself.

In the first week: The second trajectory correction maneuver will take place at 2.5 days after launch. We will start the sequence of major deployment just after that. The first deployments are the fore and aft sunshield pallets, followed by the release of remaining sub-system launch locks. The next deployment is the telescope in which the telescope and the spacecraft bus move apart from each other by about 2 meters when the deployable tower assembly extends. The full sunshield deployment with unfolding and tensioning of the membranes can then be initiated. At 6 days we deploy the secondary mirror, followed by the side wings of the primary mirror.

In the first month: As the telescope cools down in the shade of the deployed sunshield, we will turn on the warm electronics and initialize the flight software. At the end of the first month, we will do the mid-course correction that ensures that Webb will achieve its final orbit around L2. Although the telescope cools to near its operating temperature, the ISIM is warmed with electric heaters to prevent condensation on the instruments as residual water trapped in the materials making up the observatory escapes to the vacuum of space.

In the second month: At 33 days after launch we will turn on and operate the Fine Guidance Sensor, then NIRCam and NIRSpec. The first NIRCam image will be of a crowded star field to make sure that light gets through the telescope into the instruments. Since the primary mirror segments will not yet be aligned, the picture will still be out of focus. At 44 days after launch we will begin the process of adjusting the primary mirror segments, first identifying each mirror segment with its image of a star in the camera. We will also focus the secondary mirror.

In the third month: From 60 to 90 days after launch we will align the primary mirror segments so that they can work together as a single optical surface. We will also turn on and operate the MIRI. By the end of the third month we will be able to take the first science-quality images. Also by this time, Webb will complete its journey to its L2 orbit position.

In the fourth through the sixth month: At about 85 days after launch we will have completed the optimization of the telescope image in the NIRCam. Over the next month and a half we will optimize the image for the other instruments. We will test and calibrate all of the instrument capabilities by observing representative science targets.

After six months: Webb will begin its science mission and start to conduct routine science operations.



@lexluthermiester has already posted a similar link. We've got the timescales covered so curve ball opinions about what's going on aren't helping the science discussion.


----------



## KLiKzg (Dec 28, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Thermal dissapation via radiation in space is incredibly slow.  I'm curious how you reached this conclusion.


No, it is not. Thermal conduction is incredibly slow, as there is no medium to transfer heat.

Thermal radiation on other hand is electromagnetic radiation, so no medium is needed:


----------



## Shrek (Dec 28, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Would an image showing highly likelihood of another civilization or even just a habitable planet satisfy our thirst or cause us distress?



Chances are that civilization would we far ahead of us and then why would we strive for a James Webb 2 knowing it had already been done.


----------



## ARF (Dec 28, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Finding a habitable planet or another civilization out there will only create more questions and a deeper need for answers.



We are obviously not alone. Even our own origins are questionable because the likelihood that we were created by the Anunnaki is real.
Anunnaki - Wikipedia

The list of exoplanets already found without the JWST is quite long.



> This is a *list of exoplanets*. As of 1 December 2021, there are 4,878 confirmed exoplanets in 3,604 planetary systems, with 807 systems having more than one planet.[1] Most of these were discovered by the Kepler space telescope. There are an additional 2,366 potential exoplanets from Kepler's first mission yet to be confirmed, as well as 889 from its "Second Light" mission and 1,385 from the Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite (TESS) mission.[2]
> 
> For yearly lists on physical, orbital and other properties, as well as on discovery circumstances and other aspects, _see § Specific exoplanet lists_.


Lists of exoplanets - Wikipedia


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 28, 2021)

KLiKzg said:


> No, it is not.


Yes, it is. When temps get below -200K, heat bleed-off is a very slow process. This is KNOWN science *fact*.

Please review;


			https://space.nss.org/settlement/nasa/spaceresvol2/thermalmanagement.html
		

While this is not directly related to JWT, it contains information that will help a reader understand the principles of thermodynamics in space.


----------



## ARF (Dec 28, 2021)

But if it burns its fuel for some trajectory corrections, that also should warm it up...
How is it possible at all to wait for a cool down when its function alone dissipates heat?!


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 28, 2021)

ARF said:


> But if it burns its fuel for some trajectory corrections, that also should warm it up...
> How is it possible at all to wait for a cool down when its function alone dissipates heat?!


I suggest you do some research instead of speculative impossibility statements.

If I light a match do my fingers instantaneously set on fire or is that constrained by how long my dumb ass holds the match?!.

And how is a force expelled in heat going to double back and heat the satellite, it is not, and any heat radiated through the body of the satellite from its engines is obviously pre considered and radiated away.

Plus the six reaction wheels would do the majority of angular adjustment with engine's used for trajectory corrections.


----------



## ARF (Dec 28, 2021)

Ok, so we need to assume that its scientific instruments don't warm up, like our phones do, our notebooks do, hell, all chips do... and it has solar photovoltaics array to supply its instruments with power...


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 28, 2021)

ARF said:


> Ok, so we need to assume that its scientific instruments don't warm up, like our phones do, our notebooks do, hell, all chips do... and it has solar photovoltaics array to supply its instruments with power...



All we're saying is let NASA do its science and stop second guessing it's methods. Move on, please.


----------



## ARF (Dec 28, 2021)

the54thvoid said:


> All we're saying is let NASA do its science and stop second guessing it's methods. Move on, please.



I didn't say the opposite. I just say - let them do it faster


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 28, 2021)

ARF said:


> I didn't say the opposite. I just say - let them do it faster


Crack on with getting a job there, doing better than them and Changing things up then.

Or assume NASA didn't hire idiots, and indeed do know what they're doing and how best to do it, and under what timeframe.


----------



## KLiKzg (Dec 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yes, it is. When temps get below -200K, heat bleed-off is a very slow process. This is KNOWN science *fact*.
> 
> Please review;
> 
> ...


Of course it does, as the thermal radiation is on *4th power of temperature difference.* Lower the difference, lower the thermal radiation.
Just plain & simple physics.  



ARF said:


> But if it burns its fuel for some trajectory corrections, that also should warm it up...
> How is it possible at all to wait for a cool down when its function alone dissipates heat?!


Guys, lets check out a little photo with pointers. Everything will be nicely shown (engines on the bottom, telescope on top):


----------



## birdie (Dec 29, 2021)

Where is Webb?

In real time: https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html?units=metric


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 29, 2021)

birdie said:


> Where is Webb?
> 
> In real time: https://www.jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html?units=metric



I've had that bookmarked for awhile now, its fun to watch the little animation at the top... haha


----------



## Divide Overflow (Dec 29, 2021)

NASA Says Webb’s Excess Fuel Likely to Extend its Lifetime Expectations​After a successful launch of NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope Dec. 25, and completion of two mid-course correction maneuvers, the Webb team has analyzed its initial trajectory and determined the observatory should have enough propellant to allow support of science operations in orbit for significantly more than a 10-year science lifetime.  (The minimum baseline for the mission is five years.)

The analysis shows that less propellant than originally planned for is needed to correct Webb’s  trajectory toward its final orbit around the second Lagrange point known as L2, a point of gravitational balance on the far side of Earth away from the Sun. Consequently, Webb will have much more than the baseline estimate of propellant – though many factors could ultimately affect Webb’s duration of operation.

Webb has rocket propellant onboard not only for midcourse correction and insertion into orbit around L2, but also for necessary functions during the life of the mission, including “station keeping” maneuvers – small thruster burns to adjust Webb’s orbit — as well as what’s known as momentum management, which maintains Webb’s orientation in space.

The extra propellant is largely due to the precision of the Arianespace Ariane 5 launch, which exceeded the requirements needed to put Webb on the right path, as well as the precision of the first mid-course correction maneuver – a relatively small, 65-minute burn after launch that added approximately 45 mph (20 meters/sec) to the observatory’s speed.  A second correction maneuver occurred on Dec. 27, adding around 6.3 mph (2.8 meters/sec) to the speed.

The accuracy of the launch trajectory had another result: the timing of the solar array deployment. That deployment was executed automatically after separation from the Ariane 5 based on a stored command to deploy either when Webb reached a certain attitude toward the Sun ideal for capturing sunlight to power the observatory – or automatically at 33 minutes after launch. Because Webb was already in the correct attitude after separation from the Ariane 5 second stage, the solar array was able to deploy about a minute and a half after separation, approximately 29 minutes after launch.


----------



## defaultluser (Dec 29, 2021)

Divide Overflow said:


> NASA Says Webb’s Excess Fuel Likely to Extend its Lifetime Expectations​After a successful launch of NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope Dec. 25, and completion of two mid-course correction maneuvers, the Webb team has analyzed its initial trajectory and determined the observatory should have enough propellant to allow support of science operations in orbit for significantly more than a 10-year science lifetime.  (The minimum baseline for the mission is five years.)
> 
> The analysis shows that less propellant than originally planned for is needed to correct Webb’s  trajectory toward its final orbit around the second Lagrange point known as L2, a point of gravitational balance on the far side of Earth away from the Sun. Consequently, Webb will have much more than the baseline estimate of propellant – though many factors could ultimately affect Webb’s duration of operation.
> 
> ...



And if the hardware survives the now extended fuel lifetime, there's always this option for replacing that missing station-keeping thrust

https://news.northropgrumman.com/ne...extension-vehicle-with-intelsat-901-satellite

I'm sure Northrop made certain this thing could easily dock with the MEV


----------



## Shrek (Dec 29, 2021)

I am wondering how the mirrors will withstand micro-meteorites.


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 30, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I am wondering how the mirrors will withstand micro-meteorites.



its probably same as with regular sized meteors, they are just crossing their fingers the odds are in their favor it won't be hit with anything. gravity tends to gather everything, between the planets and the moons and their unique orbits, the odds are good JWST will be ok

if not, I'll volunteer to go on a one way trip to my death to clean them if they train me.  small sacrifice to pay for the last Light of our failed species.

my life is pretty **** anyway, been alone my entire life. would be one hell of a ride.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 30, 2021)

Andy Shiekh said:


> I am wondering how the mirrors will withstand micro-meteorites.


At that part of the orbit, micro-meteorites are an extreme rarity. This is one of the reasons that orbital location was chosen.


----------



## Steevo (Dec 30, 2021)

The heat shield is one source of protection, and I'm sure that a few minor chips in a mirror won't affect the images as they will only make up a small percent of the total photon reflecting ability. 

Hubble would have suffered the same by now if earth orbit were that detrimental, the sun and our own moon and earth have acted as a huge vacuum to space debris locally in the last few billion years as well. After watching the video it will be orbiting the earths "shadow" for more solar protection (Dustin from Smarter every day did some great interviews and his father worked on the solar shield) and is already at -240F on the cold side without the shield in place. The -370F they are looking for isn't that far off when you consider the 5 layers of aluminized and siliconized kapton material that is angled to disperse heat from solar radiation. 

I just hope the whole contraption unfolds in the extreme cold and temperature differential so it functions without another launch to fix.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jan 1, 2022)

Steevo said:


> The heat shield is one source of protection


The heat shield offers zero protection from micro-meteorites.  It offers thermal, not ballistic protection.
As @lynx29 and @lexluthermiester have already said, the area the observatory operates and luck are the only real defense available.


----------



## Shrek (Jan 1, 2022)

I wonder if there is a way to 'blank out' contributions from damaged parts of a mirror.


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Jan 1, 2022)

More info from wonderful Anton


----------



## birdie (Jan 2, 2022)

How the JWT unfolded:


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 2, 2022)

Can someone show me a visual representation of how close JWST will be to Mars when it is in its stable orbit at day 29?

if not thats cool, just thought it would be interesting to see.


----------



## ARF (Jan 2, 2022)

lynx29 said:


> Can someone show me a visual representation of how close JWST will be to Mars when it is in its stable orbit at day 29?
> 
> if not thats cool, just thought it would be interesting to see.



You can follow the positions of the Planets using a website:
The Planets Today : A live view of the solar system

The JWST won't be anywhere near Mars in the close future.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 2, 2022)

ARF said:


> You can follow the positions of the Planets using a website:
> The Planets Today : A live view of the solar system
> 
> The JWST won't be anywhere near Mars in the close future.
> ...



this still doesn't help me. i just want a simple picture like NASA has here, this makes it easier for me to visualize, I just want this bigger, and Mars on it so I can get a better picture in my head:


----------



## authorized (Jan 2, 2022)

I don't know if you can find such a picture... 
Next opposition of Earth and Mars is in December 2022 and the distance between the planets will be over 80 million km, so Mars will be about 55x farther away than L2 at that moment.


----------



## ARF (Jan 2, 2022)

I guess their idea is to stare with the telescope at Mars?! But what would the point of such an exercise be?!


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 2, 2022)

lynx29 said:


> my life is pretty **** anyway, been alone my entire life. would be one hell of a ride.


OT:  but so have I.  Don't make the mistake of linking your self worth to your social success.  I am sure you have more to offer than that.


----------



## ARF (Jan 2, 2022)

lynx29 said:


> this still doesn't help me. i just want a simple picture like NASA has here, this makes it easier for me to visualize, I just want this bigger, and Mars on it so I can get a better picture in my head:



Well, I try to visualise it:


----------



## Shrek (Jan 2, 2022)

Confused, the diagram seems to suggest that JWST and Mars could get very close.


----------



## ARF (Jan 2, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Confused, the diagram seems to suggest that JWST and Mars could get very close.



They will when the Earth on our orbit and Mars on its orbit are closest, that will be the so called "opposition" in December.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 2, 2022)

authorized said:


> I don't know if you can find such a picture...
> Next opposition of Earth and Mars is in December 2022 and the distance between the planets will be over 80 million km, so Mars will be about 55x farther away than L2 at that moment.


I agree with this mars isn't getting near to JWst


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 3, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> Confused, the diagram seems to suggest that JWST and Mars could get very close.


JWT will only be 1.5millionish KM away. Mars, even at closest approach, is another 53million KM further on. So not even close..


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 3, 2022)

well thanks for trying everyone... also lex I know Mars isn't even close. i just was asking about a linear visual representation because i thought it would be neat.

i suppose i will leave my imagination to it.


----------



## ARF (Jan 3, 2022)

The distance between the Sun and Earth is 147 million km.

The minimum distance from Earth to Mars is about 54.6 million kilometers.
Current distance according to Google is 350 million km.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 3, 2022)

lynx29 said:


> well thanks for trying everyone... also lex I know Mars isn't even close. i just was asking about a linear visual representation because i thought it would be neat.
> 
> i suppose i will leave my imagination to it.


The telescope won't even be able to observe Mars when it's closest. "JWST's thermal design only allows Solar System targets to be observed near quadrature; observations at opposition are not feasible."




__





						JWST Moving Target Observations - JWST User Documentation
					

JWST can track and observe planets, satellites, and nearly all comets and asteroids more than 1 AU from the Sun.   On this page JWST offers the capabilities nec



					jwst-docs.stsci.edu
				




Also, interestingly, the JWST doesn't seem to have any additional cameras to monitor the very complex sequence of its deployment, and maybe later assess damage done by micrometeorites.








						Does the JWST have a camera to monitor its deployment progress?
					

The James Webb Space Telescope has a complicated deployment sequence.  Beyond data from sensors aboard the spacecraft, does it have any cameras to take pictures of the process?




					space.stackexchange.com
				






ARF said:


> Current distance according to Google is 350 million km.


Don't know why but I overlook the word "according" every time I read that.


----------



## ARF (Jan 3, 2022)

Wirko said:


> Don't know why but I overlook the word "according" every time I read that.



Why? Because there can be a mistake. Google doesn't give the correct answers in some cases.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 3, 2022)

ARF said:


> Why? Because there can be a mistake. Google doesn't give the correct answers in some cases.


I meant something else - I misread the last sentence of your previous post as "Current distance to Google is 350 million km."


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jan 3, 2022)

Webb Team Moving Forward With Sunshield Tensioning​The Webb mission operations team began the first steps in the process of tensioning the first layer of Webb’s sunshield this morning around 10 a.m. EST.
It will take the team two to three days to tension the five-layer sunshield. The plan for today is to focus on the first layer, the largest and the one closest to the Sun.

Upon completion of sunshield tensioning, JWST will be passed about 75% of the single point failures in it's deployment.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 3, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> At that part of the orbit, micro-meteorites are an extreme rarity. This is one of the reasons that orbital location was chosen.


What part of the orbit do you mean? The path of L2 around the Sun specifically? The L2 point can catch slower dust particles from comets etc. in a temporary orbit but it doesn't necessarily reduce their speed relative to JWST, and it affects faster ones even less, so I don't see how if could reduce the danger of something hitting the telescope at high speed.


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## lexluthermiester (Jan 3, 2022)

Wirko said:


> What part of the orbit do you mean? The path of L2 around the Sun specifically? The L2 point can catch slower dust particles from comets etc. in a temporary orbit but it doesn't necessarily reduce their speed relative to JWST, and it affects faster ones even less, so I don't see how if could reduce the danger of something hitting the telescope at high speed.


There is nowhere in the solar system that is immune to risk of impact. However, L2's favorable gravimetric qualities make it very much less prone to such impact risks, which ends up being a Win/Win location for the JWT.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 3, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> There is nowhere in the solar system that is immune to risk of impact. However, L2's favorable gravimetric qualities make it very much less prone to such impact risks, which ends up being a Win/Win location for the JWT.


That's what I'm trying to understand. What are those gravimetric qualities that matter here?

A planet has cleared its neighbourhood around its orbit of smaller bodies, and that's part of the definition of a planet. As Wikipedia describes, a large body will tend to cause small bodies either to accrete with it, or to be disturbed to another orbit, or to be captured either as a satellite or into a resonant orbit. L1, L2 and L3 do not have the ability to do that ... or do they? Or does the orbit-clearing effect of the Earth extend to L2?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 3, 2022)

Wirko said:


> What are those gravimetric qualities that matter here?


It's a place where gravity is in a careful balance that will allow the JWT to just "hover" in orbit with little or no adjustment needed. The region surrounding the L2 has gravity pulling in a way that has the effect of deflecting objects and debris away from the area. Other Lagrange points in orbit share similar characteristics but lack the benefit of being in the shadow of the Earth most of the time. L2 is an ideal location for the JWT.



Wirko said:


> Or does the orbit-clearing effect of the Earth extend to L2?


It's actually much more complicated, but yes, that is the general effect.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 3, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's a place where gravity is in a careful balance that will allow the JWT to just "hover" in orbit with little or no adjustment needed. The region surrounding the L2 has gravity pulling in a way that has the effect of deflecting objects and debris away from the area. Other Lagrange points in orbit share similar characteristics but lack the benefit of being in the shadow of the Earth most of the time. L2 is an ideal location for the JWT.
> 
> It's actually much more complicated, but yes, that is the general effect.


Thanks!

A small correction, though - the JWST won't be anywhere close to Earth's shadow, its orbit around the L2 will be giant compared to the size of Earth. I found some nice drawings at Stack Exchange.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 3, 2022)

Wirko said:


> Thanks!
> 
> A small correction, though - the JWST won't be anywhere close to Earth's shadow, its orbit around the L2 will be giant compared to the size of Earth. I found some nice drawings at Stack Exchange.


Maybe I misread an article. Thought I read somewhere that the shadow of earth would be a factor of the cooling effect of JWT...

Yup, I misunderstood.








						Orbit - Webb/NASA
					

The James Webb Space Telescope (sometimes called Webb or JWST) is a large infrared telescope with a 6.5-meter primary mirror.  Webb is the premier observatory of the next decade, serving thousands of astronomers worldwide. It will study every phase in the history of our Universe, ranging from...



					webb.nasa.gov


----------



## ARF (Jan 5, 2022)

The cruising speed is decreasing, it will eventually get there but very slowly.
Now less than 0.5 km/s and declines.





Where Is Webb? NASA/Webb


----------



## Wirko (Jan 5, 2022)

I find it funny that the space vessel has a port side and a starboard side (these terms were used in the description of deployment of sunshield). Does an average Joe from UK or USA, with no experience in navigation, know what they mean?


----------



## WonkoTheSaneUK (Jan 5, 2022)

At 16:20 Central European Time today, the boom supporting the secondary mirror will begin unfolding.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478729739137425413


----------



## ARF (Jan 5, 2022)

The temperature difference between the cold and the warm side can be used to generate electricity  Naturally and for free 

That's how the Peltier element works 
Thermoelectric generator - Wikipedia
A *thermoelectric generator* (*TEG*), also called a *Seebeck generator*, is a solid state device that converts heat flux (temperature differences) directly into electrical energy through a phenomenon called the _Seebeck effect_ [1](a form of thermoelectric effect). Thermoelectric generators function like heat engines, but are less bulky and have no moving parts. However, TEGs are typically more expensive and less efficient.[2]

Thermoelectric generators could be used in power plants to convert waste heat into additional electrical power and in automobiles as automotive thermoelectric generators (ATGs) to increase fuel efficiency. Radioisotope thermoelectric generators use radioisotopes to generate the required heat difference to power space probes.[2]



Orbit - Webb/NASA


----------



## Wirko (Jan 5, 2022)

ARF said:


> The temperature difference between the cold and the warm side can be used to generate electricity  Naturally and for free


The cold side of the Peltier element would become warm. The infrared telescope would be not amused.


----------



## ARF (Jan 5, 2022)

Wirko said:


> The cold side of the Peltier element would become warm. The infrared telescope would be not amused.



Very weak argument for a so expensive, innovative piece of equipment.
It is like saying that we can't build cars running on hydrogen, because we cannot produce hydrogen safely lol


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 5, 2022)

Wirko said:


> I find it funny that the space vessel has a port side and a starboard side (these terms were used in the description of deployment of sunshield). Does an average Joe from UK or USA, with no experience in navigation, know what they mean?


When looking "forward", port is to the left and starboard is to the right.








						Why do ships use 'port' and 'starboard' instead of 'left' and 'right?'
					

Unlike left and right, port and starboard refer to fixed locations on a vessel.



					oceanservice.noaa.gov
				






ARF said:


> Very weak argument for a so expensive, innovative piece of equipment.
> It is like saying that we can't build cars running on hydrogen, because we cannot produce hydrogen safely lol


You are missing some context. There are thermal limits to how effective a Peltier type thermo-electric circuit will be. At the extreme low temps that are needed by the JWT, such a system would introduce heat to an area that needs an absence of heat.

Folks, John made a very informative video.


----------



## Bones (Jan 6, 2022)

ARF said:


> Very weak argument for a so expensive, innovative piece of equipment.
> It is like saying that we can't build cars running on hydrogen, because we cannot produce hydrogen safely lol


With this I guess we blow up a few people a week, maybe a few buildings/facilities a year to get them made because the tech is just "So New" it's worth it.
That's gonna work out _really_ well..... Not.

But hey - At least we're making hydrogen (Bombs?). 



lexluthermiester said:


> You are missing some context. There are thermal limits to how effective a Peltier type thermo-electric circuit will be. *At the extreme low temps that are needed by the JWT, such a system would introduce heat to an area*_* that needs an absence of heat.*_



This means the entire purpose of the craft is diminished to the point of it's findings are not reliable or even useful, defeating the entire purpose of why it even exists or was launched if heat is introduced to that arrea of it.
If it's not gonna work that way, it's not gonna work that way.

It requires a very cold region around these instruments to operate as designed and intended to.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 6, 2022)

Since there is no resistance in outer space, can someone please explain to me why the JWST keeps slowing down? every day it seems to be getting slower? is that an active device on the JWST slowing it down for its orbit insertion in 10 days or so, so it doesn't overshoot it?


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 6, 2022)

Gravity. It's still being affected by that of the Earth and the Sun. Orbits keep things mostly stable but in a linear path there is no (as such) centrifugal pull. And yes, centrifugal isn't the right term but it  describes what I mean.


----------



## ARF (Jan 6, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> You are missing some context. There are thermal limits to how effective a Peltier type thermo-electric circuit will be. At the extreme low temps that are needed by the JWT, such a system would introduce heat to an area that needs an absence of heat.



The introduced heat will be very negligible and it can be isolated from the instruments that need to work at close to 0K.
I am quite sure that you are not a specialist in the area, nor it has been attempted.



lynx29 said:


> Since there is no resistance in outer space, can someone please explain to me why the JWST keeps slowing down? every day it seems to be getting slower? is that an active device on the JWST slowing it down for its orbit insertion in 10 days or so, so it doesn't overshoot it?



There should be at least partial resistance since it isn't perfect vacuum, and also the telescope itself is so large that it introduces resistance.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 6, 2022)

ARF said:


> There should be at least partial resistance since it isn't perfect vacuum, and also the telescope itself is so large that it introduces resistance.



Found this to explain.









						Photons Are a Drag
					

Any object in motion feels a bit of friction as it moves through the sea of radiation that is constantly emitted by its surroundings.




					physics.aps.org
				






> Their calculations show that a lone object in motion experiences friction. It comes from the sea of real photons emitted by everything around it. Night vision goggles prove that any warm body emits infrared light, but even frigid intergalactic space is awash in microwave photons that would gradually slow a drifting space traveler. The friction occurs because the moving object absorbs more photons at its front surface than at its rear. The object slows from the flow of photons, just as a cyclist is slowed by the wind she feels in her face.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jan 6, 2022)

In thermal related news from actual spacecraft engineers:
Webb’s Specialized Heat Radiator Deployed Successfully​At about 8:48 a.m. EST, a specialized radiator assembly necessary for Webb’s science instruments to reach their required low and stable operating temperatures deployed successfully. The Aft Deployable Instrument Radiator, or ADIR, is a large, rectangular, 4 by 8-foot panel, consisting of high-purity aluminum subpanels covered in painted honeycomb cells to create an ultra-black surface. The ADIR, which swings away from the backside of the telescope like a trap door on hinges, is connected to the instruments via flexible straps made of high-purity aluminum foil. The radiator draws heat out of the instruments and dumps it overboard to the extreme cold background of deep space.

The deployment of the ADIR – a process that released a lock to allow the panel to spring into position – took about 15 minutes.

Webb’s final series of major deployments is planned to start tomorrow, Jan. 7, with the rotation into position of the first of two primary mirror wings. The second primary mirror wing – Webb’s final major spacecraft deployment – is planned for Saturday, Jan. 8.


----------



## authorized (Jan 6, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Found this to explain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Although the radiation emitted by the sun, pushing outward, dwarfs any such effect from all the other directions combined.


----------



## _Flare (Jan 6, 2022)

sailing in the solar wind, all the cosmos to larboard and starboard


----------



## WonkoTheSaneUK (Jan 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> The introduced heat will be very negligible and it can be isolated from the instruments that need to work at close to 0K.
> I am quite sure that you are not a specialist in the area, nor it has been attempted.


The people who built JWST are experts in the area, and decided against using a peltier system.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> The introduced heat will be very negligible and it can be isolated from the instruments that need to work at close to 0K.


Incorrect. You clearly do not understand how thermoelectric coupling functions. There is no way to isolate a Peltier type system from a certain amount of heat. Don't argue with me, Argue with the laws of physics.


ARF said:


> I am quite sure that you are not a specialist in the area


And that is where you are incorrect again. I worked with thermoelectric systems, including Peltier types, for a number of years professionally. Such a system has practical applications in many areas of industry and technology. However, such is a poor choice in the design of a satellites as the power requirements are unacceptably high and in the case of JWT, the thermal performance would not get the parts needing to be cooled anywhere near the ideal operation range.

This is not an argument you can win. The overwhelming amount of science surrounding thermoelectric systems is against you. Let it go.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 7, 2022)

ARF said:


> View attachment 231274


All temperatures were accurate to 0.01 C or F two days ago when you took the screenshot but changed to whole degrees soon after. That's strange. And NASA would better switch to Kelvins now, it's the only scale that makes sense from now on.


----------



## Divide Overflow (Jan 8, 2022)

Primary Mirror Wings Deployed, All Major Deployments Complete​Today, at 1:17 p.m. EST, NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope completed all of its large-scale deployments with the extension and latching of its starboard primary mirror wing. Now that the telescope is structurally fully deployed – with the secondary mirror tripod and both primary mirror wings in place – the three-month process of aligning all of Webb’s telescope optics into a precise system can now commence. Learn more.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 8, 2022)

Divide Overflow said:


> Primary Mirror Wings Deployed, All Major Deployments Complete​Today, at 1:17 p.m. EST, NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope completed all of its large-scale deployments with the extension and latching of its starboard primary mirror wing. Now that the telescope is structurally fully deployed – with the secondary mirror tripod and both primary mirror wings in place – the three-month process of aligning all of Webb’s telescope optics into a precise system can now commence. Learn more.


Now begins the process of alignment and calibration of the mirror assembly. THAT is going to take a long time.


----------



## Wirko (Jan 8, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Now begins the process of alignment and calibration of the mirror assembly. THAT is going to take a long time.


It probably needs more time to cool beforehand. This report describes how they simulated the cooling process, and the results. They built a physical model of the telescope ("thermal model") just to study that and put it in a cryogenic vacuum chamber.
"As seen from Figure 6, many of the more massive components, such as the primary mirrors, rapidly cooled at the outset but took up to 32 days from the start of cooldown to begin to exhibit asymptotic behavior to their steady cryogenic temperatures and achieve the 27 mK/hr stability required for optical testing."


----------



## WonkoTheSaneUK (Jan 11, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Now begins the process of alignment and calibration of the mirror assembly. THAT is going to take a long time.


Indeed, the team have been saying around 5-6 months of calibrations before "first light"


----------



## Wirko (Jan 11, 2022)

WonkoTheSaneUK said:


> Indeed, the team have been saying around 5-6 months of calibrations before "first light"


Hopefully they will release some uncalibrated images, with 18 blurry stars in place of one, to the hungry public earlier than that.

I wonder if it was even possible to test single mirror segments on Earth. Probably not, for several reasons - they deformed under gravity, there is no object on Earth that is distant enough to focus on, and there's distortion in the air.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 11, 2022)

Wirko said:


> Probably not, for several reasons - they deformed under gravity, there is no object on Earth that is distant enough to focus on, and there's distortion in the air.


From what I read, they did early testing on the moon and then other objects in the Solar system.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 24, 2022)

JWST is in orbit now, its 100% complete in destination and already in orbit.

So what's plan now? Wait 6 months for calibration and first photos?









						Where Is Webb?  NASA/Webb
					

During Webb's launch, deployment and commissioning, 'WhereIsWebb' tracked Webb's 'flight' to L2 orbit, its state and progress during its deployment and commissioning process, and finally the release of its first images. This process is now complete. During this process, the page constantly...



					www.jwst.nasa.gov


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jan 24, 2022)

lynx29 said:


> So what's plan now? Wait 6 months for calibration and first photos?


Yup. That's going to be a long process. Though I suspect that it'll take only 4 months.


----------



## Chomiq (Feb 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489319970324496386


----------



## birdie (Feb 11, 2022)

James Webb Space Telescope just sent back its first image - of itself
					

NASA engineers working to align the 18 hexagonal mirrors of the James Webb Space Telescope have released its first pictures. One shows the same star appearing 18 times, while a camera also took a 'selfie' of the mirrors




					www.newscientist.com


----------



## Space Lynx (Feb 12, 2022)

birdie said:


> James Webb Space Telescope just sent back its first image - of itself
> 
> 
> NASA engineers working to align the 18 hexagonal mirrors of the James Webb Space Telescope have released its first pictures. One shows the same star appearing 18 times, while a camera also took a 'selfie' of the mirrors
> ...



y'all boys share it in such a boring way.

this is how you share something exciting boys!!!











YEEEEHHAAA DR BECKY KNOWS HOW TO DO IT!


----------



## Divide Overflow (Mar 16, 2022)

Great news on the successful completion of fine mirror alignment:








						NASA’s Webb Reaches Alignment Milestone, Optics Working Successfully
					

Following the completion of critical mirror alignment steps, NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope team expects that Webb’s optical performance will be able to meet or exceed the science goals the observatory was built to achieve.




					www.nasa.gov
				




And an update from Dr. Becky:


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Mar 16, 2022)

Divide Overflow said:


> Great news on the successful completion of fine mirror alignment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mind boggling improvement in detail! Can you imagine what we're gonna discover with that?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 18, 2022)

This was an amazing first shot!


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 26, 2022)

This video released by official channel, curated by NASA 20 years of Hubble - posted on March 7th, and it only has like 7k views...  this is what is wrong with the world, that should be 7 million, at least. A shame indeed. May you fare better Webb.


----------



## the54thvoid (Mar 26, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> This video released by official channel, curated by NASA 20 years of Hubble - posted on March 7th, and it only has like 7k views...  this is what is wrong with the world, that should be 7 million, at least. A shame indeed. May you fare better Webb.


Science doesn't care for clicks and Hubble's mission has been a resounding success and testimony to the ingenuity of NASA engineers.

Webb will do likewise but don't confuse 'popular' entertainment with the mission of science. The majority of normals have little interest in astronomy or astrophysics. That's what sport, sit-coms, and conspiracy theories are for.

If science pandered to that 'limited attention span' market, then we'd be screwed.


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Mar 26, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Science doesn't care for clicks and Hubble's mission has been a resounding success and testimony to the ingenuity of NASA engineers.
> 
> Webb will do likewise but don't confuse 'popular' entertainment with the mission of science. The majority of normals have little interest in astronomy or astrophysics. That's what sport, sit-coms, and conspiracy theories are for.
> 
> If science pandered to that 'limited attention span' market, then we'd be screwed.


Well, there are science communicators out there like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Dr Becky, SciShow or Anton Petrov who forward news like that in more digestible manner. But people still prefer what they prefer...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Mar 26, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> Well, there are science communicators out there like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Dr Becky, SciShow or Anton Petrov who forward news like that in more digestible manner. But people still prefer what they prefer...


I'm partial to Paul M Sutter, John Micheal Godier, Veritasium and PhysicsGirl.


----------



## ThrashZone (Mar 26, 2022)

Hi,
I haven't been to their home page in a while to many other stuff to do on earth








						Hubble Home
					

Embark on a journey of discovery with the Hubble Space Telescope.




					hubblesite.org
				




Usually if I do just jump to this
Hubble Heritage Gallery of Images

Or here
Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive

hdqwalls.com Best Source For HD,4k,5k,8k Wallpapers


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Mar 26, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'm partial to Paul M Sutter, John Micheal Godier, Veritasium and PhysicsGirl.


Oh yeah, subscribed to JMG and watch other two every so often as well. Will check out Mr Sutter. Thanks.


----------



## Shrek (Mar 26, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Science doesn't care for clicks and Hubble's mission has been a resounding success and testimony to the ingenuity of NASA engineers.
> 
> Webb will do likewise but don't confuse 'popular' entertainment with the mission of science. The majority of normals have little interest in astronomy or astrophysics. That's what sport, sit-coms, and conspiracy theories are for.
> 
> If science pandered to that 'limited attention span' market, then we'd be screwed.



Don't Look Up (2021) - IMDb


----------



## Space Lynx (Mar 27, 2022)

I really wish my Grandpa were still around for all the Webb news, it brought tears to my eyes tonight. I used to walk down to his house all the time ever since I was really young as he didn't live far from me... readjusting life is more complicated than I thought it would be, its like gaping holes are present at every turn because Covid took so many loved ones from me in a short amount of time...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Apr 26, 2022)

Paul has just shared  a run down of Webb that really helps clarify a lot about how the JWT works.


----------



## Chomiq (May 2, 2022)

It's fully aligned now:


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 2, 2022)

Seems they're a little bit ahead of schedule. Very cool!


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (May 2, 2022)

This whole mission is going incredibly well so far.


----------



## qubit (May 2, 2022)

The JWT is epic. I'm so glad it's a resounding success.

This achievement is all the greater, because space-living devices like this can't be designed, developed and tested like normal things such as a car, no matter how complex. This is the equivalent of the first prototype going out into the field, live. Just how does one develop that and ensure it works first time? Astounding! What a superb achievement by everyone involved.  

And now the whole world gets to benefit from the increased scientific understanding about the universe that this will bring. Can't wait.


----------



## Wirko (May 2, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> It's fully aligned now


The mirrors are fully alligned but the instruments have their own optical systems that aren't aligned yet.


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 5, 2022)

John touches on some excellent points.


----------



## birdie (May 10, 2022)

NASA Releases Ridiculously Sharp Webb Space Telescope Images
					

The telescope achieved a "perfect" alignment, according to Webb scientists.




					gizmodo.com


----------



## qubit (May 10, 2022)

I'm really pleased that the JWT telescope is such a resounding success. Look forward to some great science from it.


----------



## cvaldes (May 11, 2022)

qubit said:


> The JWT is epic. I'm so glad it's a resounding success.
> 
> This achievement is all the greater, because space-living devices like this can't be designed, developed and tested like normal things such as a car, no matter how complex. This is the equivalent of the first prototype going out into the field, live. Just how does one develop that and ensure it works first time? Astounding! What a superb achievement by everyone involved.
> 
> And now the whole world gets to benefit from the increased scientific understanding about the universe that this will bring. Can't wait.


There is no assurance that it will work. It's a game of probabilities and risk tolerance.

Remember that Mars lander that died on impact because some design measurements (Imperial vs. metric) were screwed up? And there have been plenty of astronaut casualties. Apollo 1, Challenger and Columbia are the best known to Western space exploration fans.

If you look at film footage of early rocket development, there are tons of failed launches, explosions, etc.

These missions have a number of targets and milestones. Until the telescope starts generating real scientific data, it's really just warming up. If it dies a day after it starts recording real scientific data, it's not a success.

Success for the Watt telescope will be measured in years after it is fully operational. Like Hubble.

Hubble is considered fabulously successful despite its bungled deployment because it was ultimately fixed and continues to operate far beyond its original mission.

Look at the Space Shuttle Orbiter. Six were built, five were deployed as manned operational craft (the Enterprise never made an operational mission, ended up being a prototype). Of those five, two were destroyed during missions killing their crew. If there are degrees of success, where would you place the Space Shuttle program? Some people referred to it as a delivery van.

I am not certainly belittling the achievements of the people involved in the Space Shuttle program but I'm not convinced it was one of NASA's best efforts when compared to other programs.

In the same way I'm not denigrating those involved in the JWT, I'm just saying that it's way to early to light the fireworks and hold a victory parade. I'm sure the scientists and engineers actively involved in the project would largely agree that it is WAY too early to declare JWT a "resounding success" when it hasn't yet sent a single byte of scientific data as part of its mission. It's mostly just sending deployment activity telemetry.

You might be proud of your toddler who stands up on his/her own legs the very first time, but it's not like winning the Olympic marathon. There's a lot more work to reach that accomplishment.

That's what NASA missions are: marathons.


----------



## the54thvoid (May 11, 2022)

Please stick to the topic, which is the JWST and not a general discussion about NASA. Thanks.


----------



## cvaldes (May 11, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Please stick to the topic, which is the JWST and not a general discussion about NASA. Thanks.


Yes, sure.

The main point here is that it's a little premature to declare success for JWST since it hasn't started its actual mission (the one American taxpayers are funding.) If you are Scottish you didn't fund this mission.

Using the analogy of a toddler learning to walk is a very useful illustration where JWST is in its progress.

Declarations of JWST success concerning its science mission really need to be shelved for 5-10 years. Like I said, if the telescope dies a month after sending its first scientific data back to Earth, it's not a success based on the program's budget and anticipated mission duration.

Trust me, I paid my tax obligation to the IRS so some of my dollars sent this thing into space. I want it to succeed. But declaring victory now is crazy.


----------



## lZKoce (May 11, 2022)

I follow this thread just to know when more pictures will come along. I can't wait, seriously I can't wait for all the calibration to complete and they start turning it around taking more pictures. I checked on the telescope's website and if I understand correctly the last stage is ongoing. I wonder if they will point it to "close" objects as well.


----------



## cvaldes (May 11, 2022)

lZKoce said:


> I follow this thread just to know when more pictures will come along. I can't wait, seriously I can't wait for all the calibration to complete and they start turning it around taking more pictures. I checked on the telescope's website and if I understand correctly the last stage is ongoing. I wonder if they will point it to "close" objects as well.


I want to see the pictures too.

The easiest way to stay up to date is to follow one of JWST's social media accounts (Twitter, Instagram, whatever) not this TPU thread.

I'm following the JWST on one of their social media channels but the science mission won't start for months so I muted notifications for a month after the last update.

If you follow any general science/astronomy content authors on social media, they will do a pretty good job at highlighting key moments in JWST's progress: Neil deGrasse Tyson is one such online character. He is American, if there are any notable Bulgarian astronomers you admire, you may want to follow them as well.

From the JWST website









						News Webb/NASA
					

James Webb Space Telescope



					jwst.nasa.gov
				




you can see that there are Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Flickr and Instagram feeds. Most of these should provide more timely updates than this thread.

The last major update (within the past 24 hours) was that the telescope passed an alignment test.

Per NASA's news bulletin:









						NASA to Discuss Webb Telescope Alignment, Instrument Setup
					

NASA will hold a media teleconference at 11 a.m. EDT on Monday, May 9, to discuss progress toward preparing the James Webb Space Telescope for science operations.




					www.nasa.gov
				




It will take a couple of months for the JWST to prep and test science instruments, what NASA refers to as instrument commissioning, before Webb releases its first photos.


----------



## qubit (May 11, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> There is no assurance that it will work. It's a game of probabilities and risk tolerance.
> 
> Remember that Mars lander that died on impact because some design measurements (Imperial vs. metric) were screwed up? And there have been plenty of astronaut casualties. Apollo 1, Challenger and Columbia are the best known to Western space exploration fans.
> 
> ...


It has returned test data showing that it's working even better than expected, so yes, that shows that it's a resounding success. The probability that it will keep working well into the future is therefore very high.


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (May 11, 2022)

Well, things COULD go wrong at any time, so fair enough if we're cautious to call it a resounding success yet, but everything is going swimmingly so far. Let's hope it keeps up for actual missions.

Here they are:








						Science Themes - Webb/NASA
					

James Webb Space Telescope



					jwst.nasa.gov
				




I'm personally most excited about possible exoplanets data, it's so hard to get tons of data on such relatively small objects so far away. Superior parameters  of JWST could be real game changer here!


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 11, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Yes, sure.
> 
> The main point here is that it's a little premature to declare success for JWST since it hasn't started its actual mission (the one American taxpayers are funding.) If you are Scottish you didn't fund this mission.
> 
> ...


And his point was that this is a NEWS thread, not a "meritless silly option" thread. Take your nonsense elsewhere.


----------



## Bones (May 11, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Yes, sure.
> 
> The main point here is that it's a little premature to declare success for JWST since it hasn't started its actual mission (the one American taxpayers are funding.) If you are Scottish you didn't fund this mission.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking a big steamy piss all over everyone else's excitement here.
You're not saying anything new or that anyone here doesn't know already for themselves.

As they say in hippie culture, "Stop harshing our mellow".
Let us enjoy it - We'll worry about the rest if and when that time comes.


----------



## R-T-B (May 11, 2022)

It's space.  Things can go wrong at any time, practically goes without saying... nothing is a victory until the end etc.  That being said things are looking positive thus far.


----------



## lexluthermiester (May 11, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> That being said things are looking positive thus far.


Very much so. JWT has thus far exceeded expectations. It's setup and calibration is not yet complete and still has managed to set a new high bar for astronomy.


----------



## qubit (Jun 9, 2022)

First setback for the JWT, but it's only a little one, thankfully.



> NASA's next-generation space observatory has sustained its first noticeable micrometeoroid impact less than six months after launch, but the agency isn't too concerned.











						James Webb Space Telescope hit by micrometeoroid just months into flight
					

NASA says we can still expect pristine images on July 12.




					www.space.com


----------



## Space Lynx (Jun 9, 2022)

qubit said:


> First setback for the JWT, but it's only a little one, thankfully.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



they already said its easily correctable, this isn't a big deal really.


----------



## cvaldes (Jul 9, 2022)

For US residents, this coming Wednesday July 13 at 9pm PBS will premiere a NOVA episode "Ultimate Space Telescope" about the James Webb Space Telescope.









						Ultimate Space Telescope
					

Discover how NASA engineers built and launched the most ambitious telescope of all time.



					www.pbs.org


----------



## mclaren85 (Jul 11, 2022)

Here is the uncompressed image of the first image:



			https://stsci-opo.org/STScI-01G7JJADTH90FR98AKKJFKSS0B.png


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 12, 2022)

mclaren85 said:


> Here is the uncompressed image of the first image:
> 
> 
> 
> https://stsci-opo.org/STScI-01G7JJADTH90FR98AKKJFKSS0B.png


It's an amazing photo, but there's a ton of distortion going on. They still have some work to do.


----------



## Frick (Jul 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> It's an amazing photo, but there's a ton of distortion going on. They still have some work to do.



That's not distortion as such, but gravitational lensing. One can correct it, but it's something the telescope will not do.


----------



## Wirko (Jul 12, 2022)

mclaren85 said:


> Here is the uncompressed image of the first image:
> 
> 
> 
> https://stsci-opo.org/STScI-01G7JJADTH90FR98AKKJFKSS0B.png


The first image was actually this. Same part of the sky but another image sensor, which is monochrome.








						NASA shares test image from Webb's Fine Guidance Sensor, the deepest image of the universe ever captured
					

We're just five days away from the first full-color scientific images from the James Webb Space Telescope being unveiled to the world. In the meantime, NASA has shared a test image from Webb's Fine Guidance Sensor, which is, at least for now, the deepest image of the universe ever captured.




					www.dpreview.com
				






Frick said:


> That's not distortion as such, but gravitational lensing. One can correct it, but it's something the telescope will not do.


Apart from that, the only distortion I see are the spikes. I'm wondering if they can reduce them in software.

The spikes also aren't simple white lines, they contain some kind of colourful diffraction patterns. It's possible that the scientists can extract some useful information regarding the spectrum of light.

Also, this is infrared, so it's false colour. Do we know what wavelengths was this image taken in?


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 12, 2022)

Frick said:


> That's not distortion as such, but gravitational lensing.


I am very familiar with gravitational lensing. However if you look closely, there are areas of the image where distorsions are taking place but not where they should be and not where there is an apparent source.


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## Steevo (Jul 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I am very familiar with gravitational lensing. However if you look closely, there are areas of the image where distorsions are taking place but not where they should be and not where there is an apparent source.



I would wager it’s due to the image being a wide field and the center of the image is where the focal point is, it looks like it’s had a bubble filter applied.

The spikes may be simply due to the wavelength of light that sensor picks up VS the infrared wavelengths the deep field sensors use, or just an expected abberation from multiple diffraction angles for objects not in the center of the focus.


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## 95Viper (Jul 12, 2022)

Seems NASA may think this is 'gravitational lensing'.

Last Updated: 12th July, 2022 18:37 IST
James Webb Space Telescope's Image Distortion Explained; What Is Gravitational Lensing?


> According to NASA, which has tirelessly worked with its partners - the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Canadian Space Agency (CSA) - in commissioning the Webb telescope, this picture shows the SMACS 0723 as it was 4.6 billion years ago. Moreover, it is made from images at different wavelengths in 12.5 hours and if seen carefully appears to be weirdly distorted, something which cannot be blamed on the $10 billion telescope but on the featured galaxies that warped the space around them and the phenomenon of 'gravitational lensing'.


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## Chomiq (Jul 12, 2022)

These look better:





						NASA’s Webb Captures Dying Star’s Final ‘Performance’ in Fine Detail
					






					webbtelescope.org
				








						NASA’s Webb Reveals Cosmic Cliffs, Glittering Landscape of Star Birth
					






					webbtelescope.org
				



https://webbtelescope.org/contents/news-releases/2022/news-2022-034


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## Bomby569 (Jul 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I am very familiar with gravitational lensing. However if you look closely, there are areas of the image where distorsions are taking place but not where they should be and not where there is an apparent source.



i think you are looking into deep space, there are countless sources of gravity until the light reaches us, some you can't even see, not everything emits a light.


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## Frick (Jul 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I am very familiar with gravitational lensing. However if you look closely, there are areas of the image where distorsions are taking place but not where they should be and not where there is an apparent source.



You know gravitational lensing so well you can look at that picture and confidently say "that's not it"? In any case any kinks are worked on. And remember that is a composite image, basically made for the public.

Anyway:


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## Wirko (Jul 12, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I am very familiar with gravitational lensing. However if you look closely, there are areas of the image where distorsions are taking place but not where they should be and not where there is an apparent source.


Distorted object overlap other stars (or other types of point-like objects) that are undistorted. Aberrations can't explain that.


----------



## Bomby569 (Jul 12, 2022)

i especially liked this picture, the starts in this "dance" as NASA put it. Incredible


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## Lew Zealand (Jul 12, 2022)

Wirko said:


> Apart from that, the only distortion I see are the spikes. I'm wondering if they can reduce them in software.



The (diffraction) spikes are from the segmented mirrors, there is no way around them and they look like multiple overlapping spikes because there are multiple mirrors.  Hubble's spikes are from the X-shaped secondary mirror support up front, but Webb uses a different design.  No purpose is served from eliminating them in software as that just further degrades the data in the image.  The spikes are there on each and every light source in the image but they're far too faint to see or register in the fainter light sources but there are actual galaxies in that image which are bright enough to make their diffraction spikes visible, which is _crazy_. Usually you only get spikes from nearby stars.



Wirko said:


> The spikes also aren't simple white lines, they contain some kind of colourful diffraction patterns. It's possible that the scientists can extract some useful information regarding the spectrum of light.
> 
> Also, this is infrared, so it's false colour. Do we know what wavelengths was this image taken in?



Yes, definitely false color but pretty much every picture of the night sky which is taken of a galaxy or anything other than a Solar System object uses false color. >99% of them.  For instance, all those wonderful Hubble images are false color with different specific wavelengths mapped to B, G, and R, usually Oxygen III, Hydrogen Alpha, and then something else of interest, usually Sulfur II, respectively.


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## mclaren85 (Jul 12, 2022)

And here is the untouched (raw) version:

Raw photo


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## birdie (Jul 12, 2022)

Inside the Universe Machine: The Webb Space Telescope’s Ultra-Reliable Radio
					

Any scientific data the JWST collects during its lifetime will need to be stored on board, because the spacecraft doesn’t maintain round-the-clock contact with Earth. The on-board storage is enough to collect data for about 24 hours before it runs out of room.




					spectrum.ieee.org


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## Chomiq (Jul 13, 2022)

Hubble vs Webb:


			https://i.redd.it/9uyhwijeo0b91.gif


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Jul 13, 2022)

I assume those six lines from each light source (due to Webb's mirror pattern if someone didn't know) are pretty easy to compensate for in image processing?


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## Bomby569 (Jul 13, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Hubble vs Webb:
> 
> 
> https://i.redd.it/9uyhwijeo0b91.gif



when you finally get the money to leave 540p and get a 4k monitor


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Jul 13, 2022)

Awesome video to see how people actually knowledgeable in this stuff react to the pics and what can they tell from them.


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## Lew Zealand (Jul 13, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> I assume those six lines from each light source (due to Webb's mirror pattern if someone didn't know) are pretty easy to compensate for in image processing?



If someone was interested in making a pretty pic without those diffraction spikes in them, there are techniques for reducing them but not for scientific purposes, and TBF science is the $10B job for Webb.  Reducing those could compromise the other data in the image so you just work around them for science purposes.

If there is going to be an excessively bright star (lol or galaxy with the Webb!), you try to keep it out of the frame or make sure the scope is positioned where the diffraction spikes are in another part of your image and not overlapping your specific area of interest.  The Hubble has 4 spikes where Webb has 6 (different designs), so that might be a slightly bigger annoyance with Webb.


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## the54thvoid (Jul 13, 2022)

^^ Yeah, the telescope wasn't built for pretty pictures. NASA releases these to give us some 'wow' factor and I'm glad they do it to service public expectations.

I tip my hat to NASA. I know there are global components in Webb but it is NASA that brings it all together. I think its the greatest thing the US has given to the scientific world.


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Jul 13, 2022)

Lew Zealand said:


> If someone was interested in making a pretty pic without those diffraction spikes in them, there are techniques for reducing them but not for scientific purposes, and TBF science is the $10B job for Webb.  Reducing those could compromise the other data in the image so you just work around them for science purposes.
> 
> If there is going to be an excessively bright star (lol or galaxy with the Webb!), you try to keep it out of the frame or make sure the scope is positioned where the diffraction spikes are in another part of your image and not overlapping your specific area of interest.  The Hubble has 4 spikes where Webb has 6 (different designs), so that might be a slightly bigger annoyance with Webb.


No idea where you got the idea "it was just for the pretty pic" but okay.

It's pretty clear anyone with Photoshop could do that if that were the case.

Please don't make assumptions about others' intents and get condescending just because of that. It's rude.


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## the54thvoid (Jul 13, 2022)

I doubt that was the assumption, and I'm posting this to suggest we avoid bickering over semantics.

Let the science continue...


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## Braegnok (Jul 14, 2022)

iPhone 12 & countertop.


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## rethcirE (Jul 14, 2022)




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## Bomby569 (Jul 14, 2022)

i think for what i've read the higher resolution is not for higher quality pics, that's a fortunate side effect, the main objective is to get a more accurate picture of the light spectrum for stuff like analysis of element composition.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 14, 2022)

95Viper said:


> Seems NASA may think this is 'gravitational lensing'.
> 
> Last Updated: 12th July, 2022 18:37 IST
> James Webb Space Telescope's Image Distortion Explained; What Is Gravitational Lensing?


That statement is preliminary. They don't actually know what is causing the distortions. The reason for this is that the distortions are not symmetrical. Gravitational lensing is always symmetrical around the source of the gravity-well. The distortions shown in that image are not. Further investigation is required.



Wirko said:


> Distorted object overlap other stars (or other types of point-like objects) that are undistorted. *Aberrations can't explain that.*


Neither can gravitational lensing.


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## Lew Zealand (Jul 14, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That statement is preliminary. They don't actually know what is causing the distortions. The reason for this is that the distortions are not symmetrical. Gravitational lensing is always symmetrical around the source of the gravity-well. The distortions shown in that image are not. Further investigation is required.
> 
> 
> Neither can gravitational lensing.



Gravitation lenses are not perfect lenses and are not symmetrical because it's a conglomeration of galaxies, each adding it's gravity to the lens from the particular location it's in.  And they are spread out in all 3 dimensions.

There are no symmetrical distortions, other than rare chance, when your 'lens' is an irregular blob.


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## cvaldes (Jul 14, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> For US residents, this coming Wednesday July 13 at 9pm PBS will premiere a NOVA episode "Ultimate Space Telescope" about the James Webb Space Telescope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched this episode last night; it was excellent as I expected.

For those seeking lots of pretty space imagery and celestial eye candy, they will be disappointed.

This NOVA episode told the story of the people who persevered through a 13+ year delay (the JWST was originally scheduled to launch in 2007) and billions of US taxpayer dollars in cost overruns. The program mentioned the original inspiration (the Hubble Deep Field image from 1995) and glossed over the late controversy of the telescope's namesake.

The episode will probably be scheduled for reruns (check your local TV listings) and eventually it should show up in PBS Passport (on-demand streaming archive) for PBS members now that it has been aired. It might also end up on some of the streaming services (AppleTV, Amazon Fire, YouTube+, etc.). 

Sorry I have no clue about broadcast schedules or streaming availability for international viewers.


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## Wirko (Jul 14, 2022)

Wirko said:


> Distorted object overlap other stars (or other types of point-like objects) that are undistorted. Aberrations can't explain that.





lexluthermiester said:


> Neither can gravitational lensing.


The explanation is simple and very earthly. Some objects are behind the lens, some are in front of it, as viewed from Earth. You see the same effect in other examples of GL, like this one. 

Also, the objects that Hubble sees are equally distorted or undistorted compared to what Webb sees:


Chomiq said:


> Hubble vs Webb:
> 
> 
> https://i.redd.it/9uyhwijeo0b91.gif


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Jul 15, 2022)

BTW


> I assume those six lines from each light source (due to Webb's mirror pattern if someone didn't know) are pretty easy to compensate for in image processing?



Scott Manley answered me here :


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2022)

Lew Zealand said:


> Gravitation lenses are not perfect lenses and are not symmetrical because it's a conglomeration of galaxies


That depends on the field of view.


Lew Zealand said:


> each adding it's gravity to the lens from the particular location it's in.


While true, the image in question does not show anything that can produce lensing.


Lew Zealand said:


> There are no symmetrical distortions, other than rare chance, when your 'lens' is an irregular blob.


That's utter nonsense.



Wirko said:


> The explanation is simple and very earthly. Some objects are behind the lens, some are in front of it, as viewed from Earth.


Oh sure, but the effect you suggest is not happening in THAT photo.


Wirko said:


> You see the same effect in other examples of GL, like this one.


Actually, that photo is a perfect example of how GL is symmetrical.


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## Lew Zealand (Jul 16, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That depends on the field of view.
> 
> While true, the image in question does not show anything that can produce lensing.



Have you even gone to Webb's page about this?  From the Webb site hosting this image:

"Bound together by gravity in a galaxy cluster, they are bending the light from galaxies that appear in the vast distances behind them. The combined mass of the galaxies and dark matter act as a cosmic telescope, creating magnified, contorted, and sometimes mirrored images of individual galaxies."






						Webb's First Deep Field (NIRCam Image)
					






					webbtelescope.org
				






lexluthermiester said:


> That's utter nonsense.



It sure isn't (see above).


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2022)

Lew Zealand said:


> Have you even gone to Webb's page about this?  From the Webb site hosting this image:
> 
> "Bound together by gravity in a galaxy cluster, they are bending the light from galaxies that appear in the vast distances behind them. The combined mass of the galaxies and dark matter act as a cosmic telescope, creating magnified, contorted, and sometimes mirrored images of individual galaxies."
> 
> ...


Gravitational lensing does NOT produce distortion banding on a curved arc as shown in that photo.




Physics just doesn't work that way. Again, more investigation is needed.


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## Frick (Jul 16, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Gravitational lensing does NOT produce distortion banding on a curved arc as shown in that photo.
> View attachment 254967
> Physics just doesn't work that way. Again, more investigation is needed.











						Strong gravitational lensing - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2022)

Frick said:


> Strong gravitational lensing - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gee, thanks. I needed a wiki link for a subject I've been studying in detail for decades...


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## the54thvoid (Jul 16, 2022)

NASA themselves are describing it as gravitational lensing. I'll accept their rational for now. And as a science subject, few members can out do NASA.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> NASA themselves are describing it as gravitational lensing.


That was their public statement. There is some debate surrounding that image and for the reasons highlighted above. Believe what you want though...


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## the54thvoid (Jul 16, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That was their public statement. There is some debate surrounding that image and for the reasons highlighted above. Believe what you want though...



Provide your evidence for the debate please. I'll gladly welcome scientific rigour.

EDIT: I found this, which discusses dark matter.

Dark Matter


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## Shrek (Jul 16, 2022)

Here is a Hubble image of gravitational lensing (for comparison)
Gravitational Lensing (hubblesite.org)


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## Bomby569 (Jul 17, 2022)

These are all infrared pictures with values attributed to make the colours you see, these are not what you'd see with your eyes. Also you can not see everything, not all black holes can be seen for example, not even with the JWST. You can not look at these pictures and assume you have all the information you need to say things like "there is nothing else there"

I think there are a lot of wrong assumptions here that make for some flawed conclusions.


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## Shrek (Jul 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Gravitational lensing does NOT produce distortion banding on a curved arc as shown in that photo.



I need help (no sarcastic replies please ;-)

I don't see what you are saying 'on a curved arc as shown'

Could you make it clearer? is it present on the Hubble picture?

I'm not seeing anything.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 17, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> Provide your evidence for the debate please.


Already did. If the problem is not glaringly apparent, well that's a thing.



Bomby569 said:


> You can not look at these pictures and assume you have all the information you need to say things like "there is nothing else there"


Well said.



Shrek said:


> I need help (no sarcastic replies please ;-)


No worries.


Shrek said:


> I don't see what you are saying 'on a curved arc as shown'


Ok let's look at your attached image...



See how the distortions are in symmetrical concentric circular forms, clearly inditcating a gravity source? This is the effect gravitational lensing has on a particular viewing arc.

Now lets look at the image from NASA...



Here, the distortions are do not show a pattern that can indicate a gravitational source, nor do they indicate potential multiple sources. The fore-ground stars show very minor indication of distortion and should be showing none in relation to the background objects being observed.

I don't know how to make this problem any more clear.


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## the54thvoid (Jul 17, 2022)

This is the full Webb deep field image. It shows circular distortion.

From NASA:



> Other features include the *prominent arcs* in this field. The powerful gravitational field of a galaxy cluster can bend the light rays from more distant galaxies behind it, just as a magnifying glass bends and warps images. Stars are also captured with prominent diffraction spikes, as they appear brighter at shorter wavelengths.











						NASA’s Webb Delivers Deepest Infrared Image of Universe Yet
					

NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope has produced the deepest and sharpest infrared image of the distant universe to date. Known as Webb’s First Deep Field, this image of galaxy cluster SMACS 0723 is overflowing with detail.




					www.nasa.gov


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Jul 17, 2022)

A wonderful video by wonderful Anton  If you aren't subscribing to him, fix it ASAP!


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Already did. If the problem is not glaringly apparent, well that's a thing.
> 
> 
> Well said.
> ...


It's the first thing I picked up on and mentioned in page one, I am not sure why but something is causing that effect.


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## Lew Zealand (Jul 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Already did. If the problem is not glaringly apparent, well that's a thing.



No, this request is not about your opinion on this image, all of us have our different opinions.

What he means is post links to discussions between astronomers who are discussing the problem that you see here.  You've indicated multiple times that there are people who see this anomaly and are exchanging ideas about it.  Where are the scientific discussions between experts in the field about this?  That's what we want you to post.


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## Shrek (Jul 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I don't know how to make this problem any more clear.



Clarification much appreciated.


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 19, 2022)

the54thvoid said:


> This is the full Webb deep field image. It shows circular distortion.
> 
> From NASA:
> 
> ...


How is that different from the image I posted?


----------



## Chomiq (Aug 3, 2022)

Cartwheel Galaxy (NIRCam and MIRI Composite Image)
					






					webbtelescope.org


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## birdie (Aug 22, 2022)

Webb’s Jupiter Images Showcase Auroras, Hazes – James Webb Space Telescope
					






					blogs.nasa.gov


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## birdie (Aug 26, 2022)

Carbon dioxide detected around alien world for first time


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## ExcuseMeWtf (Aug 26, 2022)

A cool visualization of size of JWST itself:









						I didn’t realise how big JWST is until I saw this! #shorts
					

At the University of Cambridge. I was visiting to collaborate on a research project with my colleague, but didn’t expect to walk through the door and see thi...




					www.youtube.com


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## Robotics (Aug 27, 2022)

NASA spots one-of-a-kind ‘ocean planet’ dubbed ‘Super-Earth’
					

NASA has spotted a potential "water-world" 100 light-years away dubbed a "Super-Earth", with its Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite (TESS).




					www.express.co.uk


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## cvaldes (Aug 27, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> A cool visualization of size of JWST itself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look at photos/videos of the actual satellite. NOVA featured Webb in an episode broadcasted right around the time when the first images from the satellite were unveiled to the public.

At least as impressive as the mirror array itself are other components that needed to unfurl/deploy for it to start its science mission.

Webb has no selfie camera so the only images and videos we have of it are those taken before its launch.


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## Kissamies (Aug 27, 2022)

Seeing things like this just makes me think how small is a one human being in the whole universe. It just blows my mind and even a light year feels small as hell.


----------



## birdie (Sep 2, 2022)

Webb telescope wows with first image of an exoplanet
					

Astronomers see it as the start of a bonanza of studies exploring planets outside the Solar System.




					www.nature.com


----------



## Lei (Sep 3, 2022)

birdie said:


> Webb’s Jupiter Images Showcase Auroras, Hazes – James Webb Space Telescope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is so 4k. I can live here. Yummy


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## Chomiq (Sep 22, 2022)

New Webb Image Captures Clearest View of Neptune’s Rings in Decades
					

NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope shows off its capabilities closer to home with its first image of Neptune.




					www.nasa.gov
				




Also, there seem to be some technical issues with the MIRI instrument:





						Mid-Infrared Instrument Operations Update – James Webb Space Telescope
					






					blogs.nasa.gov


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## Shrek (Oct 1, 2022)

Scientists May Have Really Screwed Up on Early James Webb Findings (msn.com)


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 1, 2022)

Shrek said:


> Scientists May Have Really Screwed Up on Early James Webb Findings (msn.com)


LOL! Shocking.. Who called it...








						James Webb Space Telescope News
					

That depends on the field of view.  While true, the image in question does not show anything that can produce lensing.   Have you even gone to Webb's page about this?  From the Webb site hosting this image:  "Bound together by gravity in a galaxy cluster, they are bending the light from galaxies...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## ExcuseMeWtf (Oct 1, 2022)

> But according to new reporting by _Nature_, the telescope hadn't been fully calibrated when the data was first released, which is now sending some astronomers scrambling to see if their calculations are now obsolete.


Clickbait at its worst. Unless they were the same people, it's not really scientists doing papers who screwed up here, but the folks responsible for calibration of telescope, who did that improperly...


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## lexluthermiester (Oct 1, 2022)

ExcuseMeWtf said:


> Clickbait at its worst. Unless they were the same people, it's not really scientists doing papers who screwed up here, but the folks responsible for calibration of telescope, who did that improperly...


Either way, something was not done properly and as a result many of the images collected were improperly analyzed. The conclusions made as a result were flawed and need reassessment.


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## birdie (Oct 20, 2022)

Pillars of Creation:

Hubble vs Webb:




Full image (155MB PNG).


----------

