# Chipped nand chip, will it be ok?



## chrcoluk (Mar 7, 2022)

Ok this one is something new, not the norm.

Removing my 970 EVO from PC I had to use pliers, and I very slightly chipped one of the nand chips.

Knowing nothing about how these are manufactured, are these fully exposed chips with no kind of casing? or is it literally the whole thing is nand, so a scratch, chip or whatever breaks it?

I took a photo, and looks worse than by naked eye.  It was as close as I could get camera as the auto focus just broke otherwise, the label is also a bit damaged.  Havent tried it yet, will test it tomorrow if I can.


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 7, 2022)

Damage like that can be fatal, whether immediate or long term.

Try it but I'd say replace it.


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## chrcoluk (Mar 7, 2022)

Wow, that sucks, havent got money to be throwing around replacing drives like this, I have never been a fan of the M.2 slot system, fiddly tiny screws, and it seems? exposed naked chips.

Dont they put protective material around the chips then?


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 7, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> Wow, that sucks, havent got money to be throwing around replacing drives like this, I have never been a fan of the M.2 slot system, fiddly tiny screws, and it seems? exposed naked chips.
> 
> Dont they put protective material around the chips then?


Well physical damage like that wont protect them.

They are Semiconductors like other ICs.

I'd say stick to a pcie/sata/SCSI SSDs where they are encased


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## chrcoluk (Mar 7, 2022)

If I chip a sata drive, I only damage the case, thats what i meant by protective casing, seems sensible to make them so if chipped the actual nand isnt damaged, but instead just the outside material.

I am going to put this in and do a LBA read test to confirm if actually broken.  If it is damaged will attempt an RMA.   I will argue design flaw of exposed chip been so close to secure hole.

Dont know why consumer boards didnt go with U.2 instead of M.2.


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## Courier 6 (Mar 7, 2022)

from what I can see, you just chiped a little bit of epoxy there, but it´s hard to tell if it got damaged inside, if it´s just superficial, you should be fine


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## elghinnarisa (Mar 7, 2022)

It's probably fine, I got way worse scrapes and dings on some of my m.2 devices. Since apparently some of those stick on heatsinks you get come with glue stickier than Shreks snot.
However it is hard to tell if any operational damage to it has occurred or not, nothing a got run or two in something like badblocks wont find. At least for now.

Worst case, its borked. But at least you know its borked rather than guessing. And best case, it works just fine. Try it and find out.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 7, 2022)

It's silica not epoxy and touch and go if you damaged the chip. Why your grabbing stuff with pliers inside your computer I don't understand. The reason they don't have protection is heat dissipation even that sticker is made of copper to transfer heat.
One quick benchmark won't reveal anything damage like that can cause an issue when the drive is in use. Fluctuations in temp can possibly make it worse with time and cause the IC to crack.

In future don't go grabbing stuff with pliers and use a magnetic screwdriver for the fiddly screws, it's not the 80s anymore small magnets won't affect anything.


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## chrcoluk (Mar 7, 2022)

We will find out soon guys, drive is back in via a pcie to m.2 adaptor, but the lba scan in samsung magician isnt supported on the 970, so I need to find another way to do the scan.

Pliers were used as I had to remove the standoff to get the drive out, but then I found a tool that fitted the standoff, so I only tried the pliers very briefly.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 7, 2022)

Nut drivers like these are the safe option


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## newtekie1 (Mar 7, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> I had to use pliers





chrcoluk said:


> Pliers were used as I had to remove the standoff to get the drive out, but then I found a tool that fitted the standoff, so I only tried the pliers very briefly.


This still doesn't make sense. You shouldn't need to remove a stand off to remove an M.2 drive, ever. The standoff goes under the drive, and a screw goes in the standoff.


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## chrcoluk (Mar 7, 2022)

The drive for some reason was under the standoff, how that happened I have no idea.  I can only assume somehow thats how it was installed.

Anyway, it seems Windows itself has very limited options to properly scan an entire nvme drive.

Samsung magician, they soft locked lba scan and manual smart tests to newest models only.
chkdsk /r, this doesnt properly scan empty parts of drive, it did pass regardless.
Macroit disk scanner, this gave the all clear on the drive, but task manager reported the drive as completely idle during the test, and it also seemed too quick although not as quick as chkdsk empty scan, 5 mins to scan 1tb, (chkdsk /r 1 min, drive empty).

Will boot this into linux and run badblocks when I have time.

--

Hddtune was ok and did register on task manager, took 19 minutes averaging 800mB/sec reads.



ThaiTaffy said:


> Nut drivers like these are the safe optionView attachment 238993


Probably should buy some , in the end I had a tool which fitted inside, wish I tried it before the pliers.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 7, 2022)

The ssd was under the standoff? Who built the system?
Little advice, video and photo any new product on opening that way you can blame crap like this on the distributor.


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## chrcoluk (Mar 7, 2022)

Posting from ubuntu live.

No increase to any error/warning counters during read/write test in linux, I think I got away with it.  Test itself also reported 0 errors.



Curier 6 said:


> from what I can see, you just chiped a little bit of epoxy there, but it´s hard to tell if it got damaged inside, if it´s just superficial, you should be fine


Yeah, I am guessing is some epoxy (or something else) actually providing surface damage protection.


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## GerKNG (Mar 7, 2022)

the die is way smaller than the package. 
use the disk, copy 20-30 GB and look if there are any errors, bad blocks or other issues (maybe MD5 Hash checking a large file)
if everything is fine don't worry.


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## Nike_486DX (Mar 7, 2022)

if the internal circuitry isnt exposed then it will work fine. but be gentle with your ssd now, as with any chipping there is a possibility of a crack developing, and if that reaches the circuitry then ur 970 evo is toast.


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## ShrimpBrime (Mar 8, 2022)

I noticed something in the thread title.

If you say "chipped nand chip" repeatedly really fast, it makes a cool beat. Like Boots and cats. 

_____

On topic, if it's working, then it's working. Since it has physical damage, it would be difficult to warranty anyways.


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## ThrashZone (Mar 8, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> Posting from ubuntu live.
> 
> No increase to any error/warning counters during read/write test in linux, I think I got away with it.  Test itself also reported 0 errors.
> 
> ...


Hi,
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it if it works 
Warranty is done though.


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## Shrek (Mar 8, 2022)

Curier 6 said:


> from what I can see, you just chiped a little bit of epoxy there, but it´s hard to tell if it got damaged inside, if it´s just superficial, you should be fine



I'm also for the epoxy theory, I think it will be just fine.


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## freeagent (Mar 8, 2022)

ShrimpBrime said:


> If you say "chipped nand chip" repeatedly really fast, it makes a cool beat. Like Boots and cats.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 8, 2022)

What's with all these people thinking ic's are made of epoxy? It's silicon we don't call it "epoxy lottery" "epoxy labs" or "epoxy valley".

I've said once above a benchmark only tells you it's currently working, when an IC is used it heats up cools down and repeats this causes immense stress. if the chip has been damaged even a little this has created a weak point in the silicone and will likely crack.

@OP the drive might be working now but please don't put any valuable data on it given time their is a high likelihood of a crack happening and the drive failing.

Edit: corrected my spelling


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## Shrek (Mar 8, 2022)

ICs are often encased in epoxy; silicone tends to be shinny.


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## DemonicRyzen666 (Mar 8, 2022)

ThaiTaffy said:


> What's with all these people thinking ic's are made of epoxy? It's silicone we don't call it "epoxy lottery" "epoxy labs" or "epoxy valley".
> 
> I've said once above a benchmark only tells you it's currently working, when an IC is used it heats up cools down and repeats this causes immense stress. if the chip has been damaged even a little this has created a weak point in the silicone and will likely crack.
> 
> @OP the drive might be working now but please don't put any valuable data on it given time their is a high likelihood of a crack happening and the drive failing.


MEMS Journal -- The Largest MEMS Publication in the World: Nanochip's MEMS based memory < it's a plastic shell.


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## Mussels (Mar 8, 2022)

Why on earth would you use pliers on exposed electronics?!?


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 8, 2022)

newtekie1 said:


> This still doesn't make sense. You shouldn't need to remove a stand off to remove an M.2 drive, ever. The standoff goes under the drive, and a screw goes in the standoff.


Too many still get it wrong


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## bubbleawsome (Mar 8, 2022)

Yeah as far as I can tell most chips like that are actually a casing for the NAND. I don’t get complaining about their fragility though. Similar components like capacitors around the CPU socket and bare RAM chips on non-heatsinked modules. Just gotta be careful, computers are fragile.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 8, 2022)

Andy Shiekh said:


> ICs are often encased in epoxy; silicone tends to be shinny.


Cheap ic's are potted in epoxy to save costs but the only epoxy on a SSD is in the PCB the chips are purely silicon dioxide derivatives and conductive metals.

I won't use electronics when epoxy is used outside the actual PCB, it's cheap and nasty and if Samsung nand chips are made of epoxy then they are junk.

See below 2 NPN/PNP resistors the Toshiba is silicon carbide the no name Chinese crap is epoxy. The only real difference is weight visually they are very similar.



Edit: corrected my spelling


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## yeeEeEet (Mar 8, 2022)

ThaiTaffy said:


> What's with all these people thinking ic's are made of epoxy? It's silicone we don't call it "epoxy lottery" "epoxy labs" or "epoxy valley".
> 
> I've said once above a benchmark only tells you it's currently working, when an IC is used it heats up cools down and repeats this causes immense stress. if the chip has been damaged even a little this has created a weak point in the silicone and will likely crack.
> 
> @OP the drive might be working now but please don't put any valuable data on it given time their is a high likelihood of a crack happening and the drive failing.


Most chips are enclosed in a package. The silicon part of a chip is called a die. For a lot of simple chips, the package is much larger than the silicon die, e.g. this. for NAND it could come close to the perimeters (dark part in the illustration here, decapped older style package here), but it seems unlikely for that dent to go anywhere close to the die.

In the old days a lot of packages are ceramic, now most use a kind of plastic probably because they can be formed into shapes. High heat-producing components like CPU and GPU use bare die flip-chip mount on a substrate so they can have a direct thermal connection to heatsinks.

Also it's silicon. Silicone is a kind of rubber that have silicon in its polymer chain.

What you are holding are transistors not resistors. Their dice take up a tiny portion of the package (see here). Most of the package is for heatsinking.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 8, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> Ok this one is something new, not the norm.
> 
> Removing my 970 EVO from PC I had to use pliers, and I very slightly chipped one of the nand chips.
> 
> ...





eidairaman1 said:


> Damage like that can be fatal, whether immediate or long term.
> 
> Try it but I'd say replace it.


Nah, that's just the plastic shell. The die inside is very unlikely to be damaged by that chip off the plastic block. I wouldn't be worried at all.



yeeEeEet said:


> The silicon part of a chip is called a die, plural dice.


Incorrect, the plural for "die" is "dies". The plural for a numbered, roll-able playing "die" is "dice". The terminology is distinct and separate.


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## yeeEeEet (Mar 8, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nah, that's just the plastic shell. The die inside is very unlikely to be damaged by that chip off the plastic block. I wouldn't be worried at all.
> 
> 
> Incorrect, the plural for "die" is "dies". The plural for a numbered, roll-able playing "die" is "dice". The terminology is distinct and separate.


oopsies, I stand corrected.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 8, 2022)

yeeEeEet said:


> What you are holding are transistors not resistors. Their dice take up a tiny portion of the package (see here). Most of the package is for heatsinking.


Auto correct

Silicon most definitely is not a rubber, it's sand I think what your refering to is silicone polymer which is indeed a rubber but different to the silicon carbide used in chips.
It's indeed used for heat dissipation but due to its hardness can be very brittle it's crystalline structure will crack if it's damaged as I keep saying.

The chip is repeatedly heating a cooling, imagine a cold drinking glass (another silica based material) if you poor hot water from the kettle into it the stress will crack it, same principle here.

I don't want to keep getting into material science debates. If you don't believe me fine see what happens in a few months.

Edit: corrected my spelling


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 8, 2022)

yeeEeEet said:


> oopsies, I stand corrected.


No worries.

BTW, welcome to TPU!



ThaiTaffy said:


> Silicone most definitely is not a rubber, it's sand I think what your refering to is silicone polymer which is indeed a rubber but different to the silicone dioxide used in chips.


Actually, you have that wrong. Silicon is what ICs are made of. They were right about silicone being a polymerized "rubbery" substance generally used as a sealant or sealant adhesive. Silicon Dioxide is simple sand..


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 8, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> No worries.
> 
> BTW, welcome to TPU!
> 
> ...


Like I said luth I didn't want to get into material science but IC's are made of refined minerals be it silicone carbide or oxycarbide or other various derivatives and is most certainly not plastic.


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## Courier 6 (Mar 8, 2022)

yes, I was mistaken, it´s plastic not epoxy, but my answer would be the same, just fine use it and don´t worry


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## DrCR (Mar 8, 2022)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Like I said luth I didn't want to get into material science but IC's are made of refined minerals be it silicone carbide or oxycarbide or other various derivatives and is most certainly not plastic.


ThaiTaffy, you’re smarter than I am, but please put your “silicone carbide” into your search engine of choice, watch it give you a ‘did you mean?’ result, and the re-read lex’s post. 

silicon
silicon*e *

To be fair, there’s plenty of very educated scientists that get a bit mixed up in casual conversation.


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## pavle (Mar 8, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> ...chipped...


Enough chitchat, I'm curious if the drive works! 
What are the results of disktest, @chrcoluk?


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 8, 2022)

DrCR said:


> ThaiTaffy, you’re smarter than I am, but please put your “silicone carbide” into your search engine of choice, watch it give you a ‘did you mean?’ result, and the re-read lex’s post.
> 
> silicon
> silicon*e *
> ...


Yer sorry it's been a long time since I did any material science and I'm way too stoned these days to remember half of it I just did a Google search and turns out I'm getting my silicone and silicon mixed up silicone is synthetic rubber indeed and has no place in ic's silicon carbide is what chips are made of but still the fact remains that the IC was damaged and everything I said was true just substitute silicone with silicon in my wording.

Oh and I'm not smart I'm dumb I just have a drive to learn. electronics are a hobby of mine but an all consuming hobby and have been for 30 odd years.

I've chipped more ic's and watched them fail later than I can count and still do it regularly now I have a box of Espressif Ic's on my bench that I've destroyed in various manners so I know how to break them very well.

@lexluthermiester sorry dude I'm a d**k


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## Shrek (Mar 8, 2022)

pavle said:


> Enough chitchat, I'm curious if the drive works!
> What are the results of disktest, @chrcoluk?



Indeed, take it for a spin.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 8, 2022)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Like I said luth I didn't want to get into material science but IC's are made of refined minerals be it silicone carbide or oxycarbide or other various derivatives and is most certainly not plastic.





DrCR said:


> To be fair, there’s plenty of very educated scientists that get a bit mixed up in casual conversation.





ThaiTaffy said:


> @lexluthermiester sorry dude I'm a d**k


I did not mean or take offense. Only offered the above information as a way to clarify understanding. Smart and even brilliant people get things mixed up sometimes. We're all human. It's all good, no worries.



pavle said:


> Enough chitchat, I'm curious if the drive works!
> What are the results of disktest, @chrcoluk?


I'm wondering the same.


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## chrcoluk (Mar 9, 2022)

pavle said:


> Enough chitchat, I'm curious if the drive works!
> What are the results of disktest, @chrcoluk?


Already scanned every (mapped) block, its working fine.


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## pavle (Mar 9, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> Already scanned every (mapped) block, its working fine.


Sweet! Just goes to show you accidents will happen, though a few dents wont stop equipment from working. 

By the way some time ago I chipped the core of the then my GTX 970 and was quite distressed by it, but I got over it and tested it and it works flawlessly even today (I sold it to a friend).


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## R-T-B (Mar 18, 2022)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Oh and I'm not smart I'm dumb


For the record I only trust people who are willing to admit this.  The rest of humanity is dangerous.


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## qubit (Mar 18, 2022)

I'd hazard that the chip will still work fine, but you'll have to try it to be sure. For peace of mind it might be worth replacing it if you can afford to and ALWAYS have backups of your data. Don't wait until something goes wrong as then it's too late.

Edit: I see that it's working fine.

I agree that it seems sensible to put some protective casing around these. It's like removing an SSD from its case and then being extra careful not to short it out or physically damage it which would be really stupid.


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## ThaiTaffy (Mar 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> For the record I only trust people who are willing to admit this.  The rest of humanity is dangerous.


What's the saying "A rel*****s person will read one book and think they have all the answers, An academic will read multiple books and just have more questions"


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> For the record I only trust people who are willing to admit this.  The rest of humanity is dangerous.


Hmm. 

I'm a tested high IQ genius. But we all know at times I can be a daft twit.

What do you make of that?


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## R-T-B (Mar 19, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I'm a tested high IQ genius. But we all know at times I can be a daft twit.
> 
> What do you make of that?


Special.


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## ThrashZone (Mar 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> For the record I only trust people who are willing to admit this.  The rest of humanity is dangerous.


Hi,
Old military saying is 
In god we trust all others we track


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## R-T-B (Mar 19, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Old military saying is
> In god we trust all others we track


God would be in the "know it all" category, so nope.

Of course Frog God is an exception.  Because he doesn't claim to know it all...  he just does.


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