# Intel 10700K system - need advice



## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

System Builder
					






					ca.pcpartpicker.com
				




Here is the listing I have so far.  My understanding is the cooler isn't included so I need a cooler.  Any suggestions?  His budget is $1300 CAD.

The powersupply and case are kind of a placeholder as I haven't fully decided on PSU and the case I think my friend may want isn't listed on partpicker.

Friend will be using his Vega 56 GPU for now waiting for the next series of GPU's.  As well, I am covering $200 (so I will be buying the SSD and the RAM) as I am getting his old computer out of that deal (Alienware Aurora R5).

Thank you!


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

change the case for something more airflow - oriented.I can vouch for p600s but there's very good cases that sell cheaper.
adata ssd is not bad,but I wouldn't buy a micron tlc based drive since it's by far the worst nand out there,imo get a mp510,cs3030 or something else bics-based
psu - focus,prime,superflower or rmx - best quality and noise levels.
better boards can be bought for 240 dollars.strx z490 g is matx but has all the features of an atx.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> change the case for something more airflow - oriented.I can vouch for p600s but there's very good cases that sell cheaper.
> adata ssd is not bad,but I wouldn't buy a micron tlc drive since it's by far the worst nand out there,imo get a mp510,cs3030 or something else bics-based
> psu - focus,prime,superflower or rmx - best quality and noise levels.
> better boards can be bought for 240 dollars.strx z490 g is matx but has all the features of an atx.



Let me remind you, case is a placeholder.  As I said, the case I selected isn't listed on pcpartpicker.

As for PSU, we are very limited to what I can buy out here.  And due to his budget being very limited, cant find much (especially locally) for around $150 without getting garbage.  So if you can check out memoryexpress.com or amazon.ca and help me find one of a good deal, then great! if not, then I am forced to use something else.

And matx is fine but what is wrong with the board I selected? It has a USB-C front port which is needed too.

Edit: Oh, forgot, the NVME drive was a placeholder for this: https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX77531

Edit 2: here is this PSU I may select: https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX70909 but I may go for a bit cheaper depending on my friends budget adjustments.


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## Hyderz (Jun 2, 2020)

A Corsair h115i 240mm cooler or any good 240mm aio cooler.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

newegg canada okay ?


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> newegg canada okay ?



No, I gotta pay shipping and that adds up quickly so I avoid them.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

Corsair RM Series, RM650, 650 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply, Microsoft Modern Standby : Amazon.ca: Electronics
					

Corsair RM Series, RM650, 650 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply, Microsoft Modern Standby : Amazon.ca: Electronics



					www.amazon.ca


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

Hyderz said:


> A Corsair h115i 240mm cooler or any good 240mm aio cooler.


Should have mentioned, no AIO.  My friend is illiterate when it comes to maintaining PC's and last thing I want to do is get an AIO which may have issues.  So fan cooling is ideal.


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## Athlonite (Jun 2, 2020)

You wont enjoy the Alienware Aurora R5 it's cramped and noisy as all hell


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## xtreemchaos (Jun 2, 2020)

change the psu to a seasonic gx750, other wise it looks good.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> Corsair RM Series, RM650, 650 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply, Microsoft Modern Standby : Amazon.ca: Electronics
> 
> 
> Corsair RM Series, RM650, 650 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply, Microsoft Modern Standby : Amazon.ca: Electronics
> ...



Will 650W be sufficient since I heard the new intels require power plants as is, add in a RX Vega 56 I would figure maybe a nuclear reactor...



Athlonite said:


> You wont enjoy the Alienware Aurora R5 it's cramped and noisy as all hell


It aint for me.  I am just taking it, getting a cheap GPU in it, and re-selling it.   Just mentioned it as its his payment to me and I know I can get about $600 CAD for it.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Will 650W be sufficient since I heard the new intels require power plants as is, add in a RX Vega 56 I would figure maybe a nuclear reactor...


yes

board


			Amazon.ca


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> yes
> 
> board
> 
> ...



OK, I selected that one.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

ssd



			Amazon.ca
		


if you want pretty good nand,phison e12 and an actual heatsink instead of fancy trash


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## Hyderz (Jun 2, 2020)

if you want basic air cooler, can do away from hyper 212 evo (180w) i wont try oc with this cooler
if you want something more powerful can get noctua's or be quiet brands


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> ssd
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.ca



cant, thats beyond budget as I am paying for the SSD and RAM.  Since all I am getting is his older computer, paying for parts and putting it together I am not gonna go over my agreed amount.  I'll go over it with him and see if he will pay the difference.

Edit: I may just pay the $10 difference anyway.  If it is that much better.



Hyderz said:


> if you want basic air cooler, can do away from hyper 212 evo (180w) i wont try oc with this cooler
> if you want something more powerful can get noctua's or be quiet brands



Any specific BeQuiet you suggest?

I should have mentioned that Memory Express allows price matching.  Here is their listings of SSD's






						SSD / Hard Drives at Memory Express - Memory Express Inc.
					






					www.memoryexpress.com
				




Thanks for the help so far guys.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Edit: I may just pay the $10 difference anyway.  If it is that much better.


well,it's worth 10 bucks more for sure.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Any specific BeQuiet you suggest?
> 
> I should have mentioned that Memory Express allows price matching.  Here is their listings of SSD's



Shadow Rock 3, Dark Rock Slim, or Dark Rock 4 Pro. I'd probably stay away from the regular Dark Rock 4 if you want to use any RAM taller than Corsair LPX. DRP4 fits Trident Z almost perfectly.

The Silent Wings 120mm on the Dark Rocks (also 135mm on DRP4) are hands down the quietest fans even at 100% speed. Tradeoff is that Noctua usually takes the performance crown slightly in each segment.

The new STIM purportedly works wonders for the 10600K/10700K/10900K as they seem to run quite cool in comparison to their power draw. I'd still go for at least a Dark Rock Slim.

For the best value, look for an Arctic E34. However, things have gotten real expensive as of late on amazon.ca.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

arctic liquid freezer available in CN ?


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## Assimilator (Jun 2, 2020)

What is his intended usage? He would save a LOT of money by going for AMD over Intel, as well as having a cooler and quieter system. Plus the AMD CPU I'd suggest (3600) comes with a good quality stock cooler.

For example, 3600 is $290, a B450 board with WiFi is $140. That's $430 against the $814 for the Intel CPU + board you have listed, which is a saving of $384.

If he needs 8 cores and 16 threads, the 3800X is $475 which is still cheaper than the Intel chip, and it can still be paired with a cheap-ish B450 board.

If he is really adamant on Intel, rather go for the i5-10600K over the i7-10700K - the two extra cores are not likely to make much of a difference. And not sure why you would be going for a Z490 (overclocking) board if he isn't going to be using its features, the Asus Prime H470-PLUS/CSM is only $163.



cucker tarlson said:


> arctic liquid freezer available in CN ?



He doesn't want water cooling as per post #8.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

It is indeed mostly gaming.  I was aiming at Intel currently simply because Its close to  same price (x570 motherboards all seem to be sold out for something half decent and hard to come by), with the Intel being slightly better at gaming.  I was also thinking that it would be cheaper to use AMD just because it comes with a stock cooler.

As for the 8 cores / 16 threads it is mostly because since the new consoles will be using 8c/16t was trying to "future proof" as best as I can without going the extreme (12 core / 24 threads or 10 core / 20 threads).



tabascosauz said:


> Shadow Rock 3, Dark Rock Slim, or Dark Rock 4 Pro. I'd probably stay away from the regular Dark Rock 4 if you want to use any RAM taller than Corsair LPX. DRP4 fits Trident Z almost perfectly.
> 
> The Silent Wings 120mm on the Dark Rocks (also 135mm on DRP4) are hands down the quietest fans even at 100% speed. Tradeoff is that Noctua usually takes the performance crown slightly in each segment.
> 
> ...



Heck, even Memory Express is jacking up prices.  If I can get free shipping I would be looking at Canada Computers.


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## dgianstefani (Jun 2, 2020)

Noctua U12A - quiet and cool.
Mobo I would go for the MSI Unify, but that's a little more expensive.

+1 on the Intel 10th gen chips running cooler than their power draw would otherwise suggest (as long as you have cooling capacity), I've been playing around with a couple of 10900k to find a good bin and am pleasantly surprised I don't even need water to cool them at all core 5.2.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> As for the 8 cores / 16 threads it is mostly because since the new consoles will be using 8c/16t was trying to "future proof" as best as I can without going the extreme


silly
consoles will be using 8/16 ryzen at 3.5-3.9ghz
a 10400f would smash that.

I suggest 10700f or 10600kf


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> silly
> consoles will be using 8/16 ryzen at 3.5-3.9ghz
> a 10400f would smash that.
> 
> I suggest 10700f or 10600kf



Sticking with either 10700k or 3700x.  Simply as I said, the cores and threads.  10400 won't smash that as soon as something becomes demanding in multithreaded use, it will get smashed itself.

And the KF series don't seem to be available here, just the K models. Otherwise I would have used the ones without GPU's built in to save about $50.

I truly think the upcoming consoles will throw a wrench in the way for anything less than 8/16 just because games will be optimized for that. 10400K is good and all, but I don't believe for anything in near future.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Sticking with either 10700k or 3700x.  Simply as I said, the cores and threads.  10400 won't smash that as soon as something becomes demanding in multithreaded use, it will get smashed itself.


100% untrue,spread by fake news YT channels like MLID or AdurrrrrdTV,backed by 0 evidence


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

I think you don't know what next gen means. Neither of those titles are PS5 or Xbox Series X.

Let's wait and see.  Barely anything takes full advantage of 8/16 let alone 6/12 now. That will change next year.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

I think you've been had by fake news spreading machine.
a 8/16 ryzen 30000 at 3.5-3.9G in a console won't do a better job next year if it already can't beat fast 6/12 on PC in games that easily scale past 16 threads like Odyssey.It won't magically gain performance if it lacks it already.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> I think you've been had by fake news spreading machine.
> a 8/16 ryzen 30000 at 3.5-3.9G in a console won't do a better job next year if it already can't beat fast 6/12 on PC in games that easily scale past 16 threads like Odyssey.It won't magically gain performance if it lacks it already.



You can believe what you want but time will tell.

Reason why now they don't scale as well is because these multiplatform games were designed more focused towards console gaming (since it's obvious that's were the money is) and PC secondary.  That will never change. It will just mean multiplatform games are going to get a lot more demanding in the future.

First thing to check with these test is - how much was the CPU utilized?

Anyway, I appreciate your previous help. I think we can move on from this as I don't think it's necessary for this conversation.


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## ratirt (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> 100% untrue,spread by fake news YT channels like MLID or AdurrrrrdTV,backed by 0 evidence
> 
> View attachment 157593


Keep in mind that the consoles XBox and PS5 will go 4k so this 1080p FPS doesn't make much sense. If you will be able to stream while playing (sure you will be able to) so core will matter more so I assume you are not 100% right here. Plus you picked certain games that have an advantage but there are games that benefit more from cores.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Keep in mind that the consoles XBox and PS5 will go 4k so this 1080p FPS doesn't make much sense. If you will be able to stream while playing (sure you will be able to) so core will matter more so I assume you are not 100% right here. Plus you picked certain games that have an advantage but there's games that benefit more from cores.


please point me to a game that benefits from more cores in any greater measure than odyssey or sotr.
and how is 1080p not making sense in pure CPU testing but 4k does ? 
you're the guy who believes consoles will somehow outperform their pc conterparts,right ?


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## Assimilator (Jun 2, 2020)

BTW @sepheronx , I revised and updated my original post with some more info.

I would not go for 3700X as it seems to be EOL and getting expensive (including shipping, it actually costs _more_ than the 3800X on amazon.ca).

The 10700 (non-K/non-F) would probably be a better fit for your friend if he isn't going to OC. At $520 it's a whole $60 cheaper than the 10700K - that's almost enough to step him up to a 1TB Gammix SSD instead of the 512GB model, which I would strongly suggest for system longevity. For example, if you went with the H-series board I previously mentioned - or, the ASUS Prime Z490-P is $15 cheaper than the MSI board you've currently selected.

@cucker tarlson seems OP has decided on 8c/16t so no point in trying to change his mind, getting into console vs PC fights here is not helping him. And an 8c/16t CPU will surely age better than a 6c/12t one, which is important for someone like OP's friend who (it sounds like) doesn't upgrade frequently.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

10700F is a very good choice,fast and cool for gaming.a bit expensive tho.
would get 10600kf for myself and sacrifice the temperatures.



Assimilator said:


> @cucker tarlson seems OP has decided on 8c/16t so no point in trying to change his mind, getting into console vs PC fights here is not helping him.


absolutely.
I just point out there's no proof of 8/16 smashing 6/12 because of consoles if it's not happening already on pc games that do use 16/20 threads.
and to my mind when current 6/12 becomes irrelevant,then 8/16 won't be much better either.


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## ratirt (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> please point me to a game that benefits from more cores in any greater measure than odyssey or sotr.
> and how is 1080p not making sense in pure CPU testing but 4k does ?
> you're the guy who believes consoles will somehow outperform their pc conterparts,right ?










 you can look here. Btw please search yourself instead of quoting posts from 3 years ago.
It is not just gaming but also streaming for instance. So yeah more cores will be required.
How is 1080p making sense and not 720p o lower? If you want to be a cave man playing 720p or 1080p please be my quest but maybe lets move forward?
I'm the guy who disagrees with what you said about cores playing role in gaming.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Btw please search yourself instead of *quoting posts from 3 years ago.*


what ?
and that video is *all ryzen cores*,so who cares since it's an intel cpu thread. compare 6/12 8700k and it still outperforms 3700x in the games you see in the video so how relevant is the video really ?
and when was streaming ever mentioned by the OP ?
do you ever sit one out or are you gonna mention 16 thread consoles in every thread you see ?


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## ratirt (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> what ?


Right. my apologies.


ratirt said:


> Btw please search yourself instead of quoting bringing up posts from 3 years ago. cores don't matter.





cucker tarlson said:


> and that video is *all ryzen cores*,so who cares since it's an intel cpu thread. compare 6/12 8700k and it still outperforms 3700x in the games you see in the video so how relevant is the video really ?


Sure it is, but it does matter doesn't it?


cucker tarlson said:


> do you ever sit one out or are you gonna mention 16 thread consoles in every thread you see ?


That's for me to decide doesn't it?
The OP didn't mention games you have posted graphs of to prove your point and yet you posted these anyway.

Cores matter and you are wrong. Sorry.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

ratirt said:


> Right. my apologies.
> 
> 
> Sure it is, but it does matter doesn't it?
> ...


of cores they do   and I never said they don't. but you don't get the concept of scaling and diminishing returns at all and insist on comparing intel to amd in 1:1 ratio which is plain wrong as proved in every friggin review there has ever been on the internet.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

Thanks guys, I appreciate it


So a none K/F is ideal? I haven't seen them for sale here, I'll give it a check.  Saving money is ideal since I told him to wait out till next year (so save what he's got) till the new gpus release and upgrade to those. So the more money saved, the more he will be able to spend on a better GPU which we all agree is the most important part for PC gaming 

I don't mind the suggestions and I appreciate when debate arrives about why 6/12 may be sufficient as I know you are trying to help me save. It's just I'm trying to future proof it as best I can too.

All suggestions are good and as long as people are civil, im all ears.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

futureproofing is a myth to a large extent.
you've got an intel 10/20 outperforming 8/16 by a little which in turn outperforms 6/12 by a little which in turn outperforms amd's 8/16 by a little which outperforms intel's 6c/6t by a little and then intel's 6c/6t outperforms amd's 4/8 by a little.
No 6/12 cpu is gonna fall off a cliff next year,or the year after that and after that.



sepheronx said:


> So a none K/F is ideal? I haven't seen them for sale here, I'll give it a check.  Saving money is ideal since I told him to wait out till next year (so save what he's got) till the new gpus release and upgrade to those. So the more money saved, the more he will be able to spend on a better GPU which we all agree is the most important part for PC gaming


10600kf OC can drive a 2080Ti just as fine as 9900K/109000K stock even in most cpu bound tests out there.No need to make any more confusion.
10700F is a nicer cpu though,both for all round use and for gaming.It's hittting frequencies just shy of K-skus and should stay cool in gaming as it's an 8/16,it's gonna have to deal with a lower cpu load in gaming.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

I do know that future proofing kinda doesn't exist but it also kinda does. The core count did matter a bit and I wager did better for me in example my W3680 xeon over my 4770. Hence why I switched to my Dell T3500 for long run. And that cpu is old 10 years I think.

So I hope that at least the 10700F will do him fine for at least 6 years minimum. Maybe I'll be wrong but hopefully not.

So I'm gonna go with @Assimilator idea of getting the non KF/K and utilizing that money towards a bigger NVME. I'll check out your (@cucker tarlson ) on that NVME as example.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

games are getting bigger and more complex in size and geometry,I say they'll both be slouches in 4-5 years time,no matter if it's 6/12 at 5G or 8/16 at 4.5.
it'll just not happen overnight,it'll happen gradually.
people quote 4 threads vs 6/8 but the results we have suggest that the transition in the future will be far smoother than that.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

Although I personally would't buy and i5 I doubt a 12 thread cpu will give you issues through the entirety of the next gen console lifespan unless your buddy wants to live stream.... Also the difference between intel and amd for gaming is almost 0 at 1440p with a 2080 ti and imperceptible in most games at 1080p except in Farcry or if you absolutely love to game with a high end gpu at medium settings while looking at a rivatuner overlay. 

Maybe if your buddy plans to grab a 1200+ ampere gpu that will change.... I plan on getting one so I guess I will also get to see. 

The 10700k is a nice cpu if a bit boring and a good middle ground between the i5 and the i9 Also with the Tuf and Tomahawk being pretty damn good I wouldn't spend more than that on a board unless your buddy plans on going i9 in the future. 




I'd personally bet on my 3900X outliving my 9900k but I'd love to be wrong. I don't typically keep systems beyond 3 years but I still should have at least 1 of each to mess around with 4-5 years from now.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

3900x won't even outlive a 3700x the way Ryzens work in games by using best cores within a CCX and letting others sit at low loads.The tiny differences between R5/7/9 you see are mostly cause each Ryzen sku is just a better bin.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

I have a 3900X it matches my 9900k in pretty much every game I play... and beats my 3700X in some...


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

yes,you did mention you're gpu bound.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

with a 2080 ti yeah cuz two doesn't really make sense.... Spending 2400+ to make one of my cpu look better than the other is sorta senseless.....


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## thesmokingman (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I think you don't know what next gen means. Neither of those titles are PS5 or Xbox Series X.
> 
> Let's wait and see.  Barely anything takes full advantage of 8/16 let alone 6/12 now. That will change next year.



If your screen resolution is higher than 1080p, your cpu won't matter as much regardless of the opinionated responses you get.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> If your screen resolution is higher than 1080p, your cpu won't matter as much regardless of the opinionated responses you get.


you'd have to consider games on one by one basis for that not just go by averages
but fps gains are usually very incremental these days,you'll not lose a world of performance coming from 10900K to 3300x


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## repman244 (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> futureproofing is a myth to a large extent.



SB-e want's a word with you. While the 2600k became slow for anything multithreaded, the 6 core and 8 core parts on socket 2011 just keep going due to better multithread support.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

repman244 said:


> SB-e want's a word with you. While the 2600k became slow for anything multithreaded, the 6 core and 8 core parts on socket 2011 just keep going due to better multithread support.


read my posts till the end please.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

repman244 said:


> SB-e want's a word with you. While the 2600k became slow for anything multithreaded, the 6 core and 8 core parts on socket 2011 just keep going due to better multithread support.




I don't know my 5820k was struggling in a lot of modern games before I replaced it... not so much with avg frame rates but with 1% low performance.

of course you need to actually own a gpu fast enough for that to matter....


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> even at 1080p with high to ultra settings its debatable with current gpu's how much it matters beyond a 12 thread with 8th/9th/10th gen Cpu or 3000 series.
> 
> 
> 
> i don't know my 5820k was struggling in a lot of modern games before I replace it... not so much with avg frame rates but with 1% low performance.


cause it's a haswell and not a very high clocker at that


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> cause it's a haswell and not a very high clocker at that



Yeah capped out around 4.6ghz.... Lasted 4+ years though.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

He games at 1080p. I told him his next upgrade should be a new monitor 1440p or 4K, he said he will eventually. He doesn't stream but he does love to play Star Citizen as the dumb dumb man spent $500 on some ship. It has become a way for his roommate and I to tease him over. So he is building it around that game and judging how poorly optimized it is, if he can play that game, he will play any. (I know that isn't entirely true but...)

So you guys say the Asus motherboards? I gotta check but ones I looked at didn't have the USB C header on the motherboard for front panel.  I thought the MSI boards were good in terms of VRM for Intel?


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## thesmokingman (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> So you guys say the Asus motherboards? I gotta check but ones I looked at didn't have the USB C header on the motherboard for front panel.  I thought the MSI boards were good in terms of VRM for Intel?



For me it comes down to the bios and Asus 9 out 10 times wins in this dept, especially the ROG branded boards.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

He's probably going to need 3080 ti in sli to run that game at 1080p


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> For me it comes down to the bios and Asus 9 out 10 times wins in this dept, especially the ROG branded boards.


bios layout is something you can get used to.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> bios layout is something you can get used to.



I won't be playing in the bios much at all besides maybe with memory.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I won't be playing in the bios much at all besides maybe with memory.


which is just selecting xmp and pressing F10


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## tabascosauz (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> It is indeed mostly gaming.  I was aiming at Intel currently simply because Its close to  same price (x570 motherboards all seem to be sold out for something half decent and hard to come by), with the Intel being slightly better at gaming.  I was also thinking that it would be cheaper to use AMD just because it comes with a stock cooler.
> 
> As for the 8 cores / 16 threads it is mostly because since the new consoles will be using 8c/16t was trying to "future proof" as best as I can without going the extreme (12 core / 24 threads or 10 core / 20 threads).
> 
> ...



ME prices are alright. Problem is that the products they stock get rarer and rarer by the minute and has been the case for well over a year now, to the point that I outright can't find the brands I want anymore. CC has a stock variety comparable to NCIX back in the day, but often doesn't show up in PCPartPicker results.

Keep in mind that while you can pay in store with credit/debit at CC (no cash due to human malware), I don't think the web checkout process supports debit, or at least MC debit. You may have a different experience with Visa. I ran into this wall a couple of times last year trying to use my info to reserve an order for payment upon store pickup.


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## sepheronx (Jun 2, 2020)

Where abouts are you?  No CC here in Alberta that I am aware of.  We are at the total whim of MC.  While they are decent, their stocks are absolute trash now.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 2, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> Where abouts are you?  No CC here in Alberta that I am aware of.  We are at the total whim of MC.  While they are decent, their stocks are absolute trash now.



I'm in the Vancouver area. Fortunately for me, CC has multiple stores here, although ME has one that's close to my house (pointless without products).

I think I'd trust CC with shipping, but they do have an amended returns policy as indicated by the banner on their site. Check with that first if you buy CC.

ME is straight up crumbling under the weight of 'rona. They refuse to ship anything unless it's available in their Online Store inventory. Months ago there were 10+ SN750 1TBs at stores, yet none at the warehouse and they refused to ship to me so I had to go wait outside at the store to pick one up.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> games are getting bigger and more complex in size and geometry,I say they'll both be slouches in 4-5 years time,no matter if it's 6/12 at 5G or 8/16 at 4.5.
> it'll just not happen overnight,it'll happen gradually.
> people quote 4 threads vs 6/8 but the results we have suggest that the transition in the future will be far smoother than that.



Neither of those CPUs will be slouches in 4-5 years time. We have 12 threads available and games do their threading better. Its no longer the pure need for physical cores, but mostly threads. Same goes for the development on consoles. You need a baseline of physical cores and additional threads can run just fine through SMT. Consoles even reserve some grunt for the OS, not unlike a PC.

It echoes the development we saw when HT/SMT was NOT used by games. There was one fat game thread, and a few smaller ones running on the other cores. The net gain from additional cores wasn't there. We're past that now, and this core count doubling will not be going on indefinitely for MSDT either. I struggle to see how that mixes with dual channel RAM, at some point the bandwidth is saturated when you load up.

6/12, or 8/16 right now is a matter of choices between cost and usability. As in, if you have something you run ALONGSIDE your games, then definitely get some extra cores over 6 physical, because you will be having more hot threads to run that won't fare well over SMT alone. At that point they start fighting with game performance.

If we look back to the quad core era. The i7's with HT are even today still not completely obsolete. You still see people defend them for gaming and that is because in MOST situations they can still produce 60 FPS. The odd stutter, MAYBE, but that is situational. It is a writing on the wall. But at the same time, it is also 2020 now - 7-8 years (!) past quad core mainstream. Going by that timeline, in 5 years time, 12 thread CPUs will be as relevant as an i7 quad is today. There is no denying that even you still game on it


----------



## evernessince (Jun 2, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> futureproofing is a myth to a large extent.
> you've got an intel 10/20 outperforming 8/16 by a little which in turn outperforms 6/12 by a little which in turn outperforms amd's 8/16 by a little which outperforms intel's 6c/6t by a little and then intel's 6c/6t outperforms amd's 4/8 by a little.
> No 6/12 cpu is gonna fall off a cliff next year,or the year after that and after that.
> 
> ...



Don't know about that one.  The way the 7700K bombed in performance 3 years later says otherwise.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Jun 2, 2020)

7700k does fine.... it's the 7600k that has terrible 1% lows.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jun 3, 2020)

evernessince said:


> Don't know about that one.  The way the 7700K bombed in performance 3 years later says otherwise.


6700k pretty much matches 3600 all round,avg and min.








6700k at 4.8 is a tad faster than 3600 OC


----------



## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

So I contacted my friend about the Intel 10700 (non K and non F as given input by both @Assimilator and @cucker tarlson ) and he really likes it overall (I placed in the CM Hyper 212 Black Edition in as the CPU cooler) and it came to just a shy over $1000 CAD.  But he also wanted me to price out a AMD system.






						System Builder
					






					ca.pcpartpicker.com
				




I prefer the Intel system myself.  Heck, I may even go for it as well.

Here is the initial Intel system:





						System Builder
					






					ca.pcpartpicker.com


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

I would at least pair them with equal motherboards the Tuf is a lot better than the A pro.


Also you really need to remove all power limits on the 10700 and I'm not sure an h212 is gonna handle 220 watts of heat.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> I would at least pair them with equal motherboards the Tuf is a lot better than the A pro.
> 
> 
> Also you really need to remove all power limits on the 10700 and I'm not sure an h212 is gonna handle 220 watts of heat.



I dont think you quite understand but the issue at hand is availability, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.  Motherboards, x570 especially, are nearly none existent right now and otherwise, they are expensive or have just unneeded functions.  This isn't even my first x570 system I built either.  I will be building this machine about this Friday.  Maybe next week as latest.  So that means if the availability isnt there, then he isn't getting it.

Also, for what my friend is doing, there is no need for something fancy in terms of motherboard.  He will need a USB-C header port which doesn't exist on that x570 board either.  And why would I remove power limits?  My friend isn't doing anything special.  He isn't overclocking, he is just playing games and I need something stable but good and cheap enough.

As for the cooler, I will keep my eye out for something better.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

It really isn't that great of a chip with its power limits in place and most motherboards actually remove them by default other than Asus I believe.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> It really isn't that great of a chip with its power limits in place and most motherboards actually remove them by default other than Asus I believe.



OK, so I will seek out a cooler that will be sufficient.  Cant be AIO.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> OK, so I will seek out a cooler that will be sufficient.  Cant be AIO.




the 120mm noctua cooler seemed to be more than capable in the tpu review.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> the 120mm noctua cooler seemed to be more than capable in the tpu review.



all depends on the price.  If the price is too much I may just opt for a cheap 240mm AIO for him and just tell him to keep an eye on it.

Major issue is Intel not providing a cooler for their CPU.  At least AMD does provide a half decent one.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

They do actually provide a cooler on non K chips it just sucks.... You will definitely be thermal throttling with it without the power limits.

it's similar to the stealth cooler amd provides which also sucks lol.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> all depends on the price.  If the price is too much I may just opt for a cheap 240mm AIO for him and just tell him to keep an eye on it.
> 
> Major issue is Intel not providing a cooler for their CPU.  At least AMD does provide a half decent one.



Our TPU review on the 10700 is just out. Stock, the load tenperatures are unreal, it's like a fridge. Without power limits, it ends up between the 3700X and 3900X.

Intel doesnt regulate itself on temps like Ryzen, so even 76C will be fine. This chip doesn't have TVB so you don't have to worry about staying under 70C. The review is done on a U12S, so within spitting distance of a 212 EVO.

Besides, you'll be shelling out $130 CAD guaranteed for the big boys like the U12A, D15 and DRP4.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

Well, seems the noctua cooler is $100 CAD here.  Yeah, I doubt he will buy that.  I will have to convince him if I can save money elsewhere.



tabascosauz said:


> Our TPU review on the 10700 is just out. Stock, the load tenperatures are unreal, it's like a fridge. Without power limits, it ends up between the 3700X and 3900X.
> 
> Intel doesnt regulate itself on temps like Ryzen, so even 76C will be fine. The review is done on a U12S, so within spitting distance of a 212 EVO.
> 
> Besides, you'll be shelling out $130 CAD guaranteed for the big boys like the U12A, D15 and DRP4.



Ah, so I dont have to spend that much on a cooler then.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> Our TPU review on the 10700 is just out. Stock, the load tenperatures are unreal, it's like a fridge. Without power limits, it ends up between the 3700X and 3900X.
> 
> Intel doesnt regulate itself on temps like Ryzen, so even 76C will be fine. The review is done on a U12S, so within spitting distance of a 212 EVO.
> 
> Besides, you'll be shelling out $130 CAD guaranteed for the big boys like the U12A, D15 and DRP4.




The review is done on an open test bench in a likely 20C room not a hotbox case like a h510


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> The review is done on an open test bench in a likely 20C room not a hotbox case like a h510



Ah, I see you didn't read the thread.

I said the case is a placeholder, as it isn't listed on pcpartpicker.  Here is the case he will be getting:






						InWin C200 ATX Mid Tower Case - Black - Standard Cases - Memory Express Inc.
					






					www.memoryexpress.com


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

honestly that looks worse Temps wise. Front intake looks terrible.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> The review is done on an open test bench in a likely 20C room not a hotbox case like a h510



These aren't C7s and L9x65. They don't suffer 25C moving from a bench to a case. 

As I said, the cooler prices are straight up asking for our kidneys here. Intended user is not the kind to mess with OCing, and we already know stock thermals are frigid.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> honestly that looks worse Temps wise. Front intake looks terrible.



No it isn't.  I have this same case actually.  Temps seem to be quite fine.  Please, I would like you to refrain from assuming things.  Let us stick to just facts.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> These aren't C7s and L9x65. They don't suffer 25C moving from a bench to a case.
> 
> As I said, the cooler prices are straight up asking for our kidneys here. Intended user is not the kind to mess with OCing, and we already know stock thermals are frigid.




after checking pricing I agree hurts my brain what you guys have to spend on tech..... Not sure I would even be able to afford my pc if I lived in Canada and I make a pretty decent wage here in the states lol.



sepheronx said:


> No it isn't.  I have this same case actually.  Temps seem to be quite fine.  Please, I would like you to refrain from assuming things.  Let us stick to just facts.




sorry man wasn't trying to bash the case was just an assumption based on how it looks. If you already have the case and feel the performance is decent then you should be fine with the lesser cooler worst case scenario you will have to enable the power limits.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> after checking pricing I agree hurts my brain what you guys have to spend on tech..... Not sure I would even be able to afford my pc if I lived in Canada and I make a pretty decent wage here in the states lol.



While average Canadian makes good money, we mostly live paycheck to paycheck.  At least about 60% of Canadians do (myself included).  My friend is in same position and so he is trying to go with the least amount hence he may just go with the Ryzen setup instead to save money.  Even if its lets say $100 he saves.

No worries about the case.  I just never liked people assuming things.  The case cooling is sufficient especially for what he will be going for.  He is coming from an Alienware Aurora R5 and I had to spend time trying to fix that ones cooling even though it used a stock intel heatsink.  So this case is leaps and bounds better.  Plus it has all the expansions he needs.  I found the airflow adequate.  The best one I used was a NR400 case in terms of airflow but he is like me - hates RGB and windows on cases.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> While average Canadian makes good money, we mostly live paycheck to paycheck.  At least about 60% of Canadians do (myself included).  My friend is in same position and so he is trying to go with the least amount hence he may just go with the Ryzen setup instead to save money.  Even if its lets say $100 he saves.




Yeah its a tough choice.... I really like both my Ryzen and intel system and if I could only keep one it would be the 3900X but you guys are in a different boat its an 8 core vs an 8 core.....

I would probably lean towards the 10700 as well as long as I could use it with power limits disabled and pair it with a decent mobo.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> While average Canadian makes good money, we mostly live paycheck to paycheck.  At least about 60% of Canadians do (myself included).  My friend is in same position and so he is trying to go with the least amount hence he may just go with the Ryzen setup instead to save money.  Even if its lets say $100 he saves.



Intel CPUs have also been really expensive for 3 generations. The TPU review suggests that the 10700 can't beat the 3700X without taking off the power limits. AFAIK the 10700 is quite a bit more expensive than the 3700X. I remember having to pick between the 3700X and 9700, the choice was damn obvious. 

Meanwhile, Matisse pricing has been relatively consistent since last July. From an economical perspective, it may make more sense to go with Ryzen to save a buck. 

That is, if you can find boards, though. Ryzen boards are bizzarely few and far between right now. This may change with B550.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Yeah its a tough choice.... I really like both my Ryzen and intel system and if I could only keep one it would be the 3900X but you guys are in a different boat its an 8 core vs an 8 core.....
> 
> I would probably lean towards the 10700 as well as long as I could use it with power limits disabled and pair it with a decent mobo.



I heard good things about the MSI motherboards for Intel (AMD did have good ones for B450 but not x570) and they seem to be the only ones in decent price range that has USB-C header on the motherboard for front I/O.



tabascosauz said:


> Intel CPUs have also been really expensive for 3 generations. The TPU review suggests that the 10700 can't beat the 3700X without taking off the power limits. AFAIK the 10700 is quite a bit more expensive than the 3700X. I remember having to pick between the 3700X and 9700, the choice was damn obvious.
> 
> Meanwhile, Matisse pricing has been relatively consistent since last July. From an economical perspective, it may make more sense to go with Ryzen to save a buck.
> 
> That is, if you can find boards, though. Ryzen boards are bizzarely few and far between right now. This may change with B550.



I can get a Gigabyte x570 board for about same price ($240) but it doesn't have that darn USB-C which he wants.  So I may tell him to get a USB-C extension card later on.  Otherwise, the Gigabyte board does have a 10+2 VRM I believe which is more than enough.

I was aiming at the ASUS TUF x570 Gaming Plus but that has been out of stock for now over two months here.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I heard good things about the MSI motherboards for Intel (AMD did have good ones for B450 but not x570) and they seem to be the only ones in decent price range that has USB-C header on the motherboard for front I/O.




I'm worried about what mosfets they used on their budget boards also the 270 cad boards are 6 layer pcb vs 4 layers so memory support is likely quite a bit worse not sure how much that matters to your buddy but it would bother me.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> I'm worried about what mosfets they used on their budget boards also the 270 cad boards are 6 layer pcb vs 4 layers so memory support is likely quite a bit worse not sure how much that matters to your buddy but it would bother me.



He will just stick with the Gskill Ripjaws.  Those seem to work in everything.  Judging by performance differences, there really isnt much to gain going with the more expensive RAM anyway.


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## tabascosauz (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> I can get a Gigabyte x570 board for about same price ($240) but it doesn't have that darn USB-C which he wants.  So I may tell him to get a USB-C extension card later on.  Otherwise, the Gigabyte board does have a 10+2 VRM I believe which is more than enough.



That seems to be a good way to go; these aren't ITX boards after all...

Does he just need the C port, or does he specifically need the 10Gbps speeds of 3.2Gen2?


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

tabascosauz said:


> That seems to be a good way to go; these aren't ITX boards after all...
> 
> Does he just need the C port, or does he specifically need the 10Gbps speeds of 3.2Gen2?



He wants, not needs.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

it's unfortunate that the Aorus Elite is 310 Cad its a really really good board.


What about this?









						ASUS TUF GAMING Z490-PLUS LGA 1200 ATX Intel Motherboard - Newegg.com
					

Buy ASUS TUF GAMING Z490-PLUS LGA 1200 Intel Z490 SATA 6Gb/s ATX Intel Motherboard with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.ca


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## tabascosauz (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> He wants, not needs.



That's a tricky one. I have 10Gbps out of my 2060S' Virtualink, and 40Gbps out of my XPS and Thunderbolt dock. Out of countless different C devices I plug into my stuff, the sole item that actually benefits from speeds beyond 3.0 is my external NVMe housing a PM981. And even then, only when I'm moving my entire Dropbox or movies folder, which is like 2% of the time.

Given how poor motherboard choice is for us up here, he's going to have to think long and hard as to whether he makes enough intensive file transfers to make it worth it.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> it's unfortunate that the Aorus Elite is 310 Cad its a really really good board.
> 
> 
> What about this?
> ...



that one isnt bad at all.  But its Newegg Canada.  I ordered from them in the past and it sucked.  Plus it isn't free shipping so it ends up more expensive after taxes and what not.  But I will put that into consideration.  But he will also end up having to get a USB-C card in order to use the front i/o so add that to the overall cost too.  Which begs the question, why bother spending all of that when I can get a decent board that has all of that and just works when I get it all installed?

You see, I have been building machines since Socket A days.  And from my memory, back then the difference in motherboards was the North Bridge chipset.  As time has gone on, and the removal of that, then it really boiled down to quality of onboard components.  Now I would presume that MSI and the rest will be using semi decent quality components on their boards, and he doesn't need special RGB nonsense, and he isn't fiddling around in the bios (and anyway, I have enough experience in MSI bios as lousy as it is).  So the question is - is it really necessary to spend more for a board when the other board will do the same, and overall be cheaper?



tabascosauz said:


> That's a tricky one. I have 10Gbps out of my 2060S' Virtualink, and 40Gbps out of my XPS and Thunderbolt dock. Out of countless different C devices I plug into my stuff, the sole item that actually benefits from speeds beyond 3.0 is my external NVMe housing a PM981. And even then, only when I'm moving my entire Dropbox or movies folder, which is like 2% of the time.
> 
> Given how poor motherboard choice is for us up here, he's going to have to think long and hard as to whether he makes enough intensive file transfers to make it worth it.



I'll throw it by him.  He trusts me since I been helping him with his PC stuff for over a decade now.  I just dont want to screw him where he ends up having to keep spending and spending.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> that one isnt bad at all.  But its Newegg Canada.  I ordered from them in the past and it sucked.  Plus it isn't free shipping so it ends up more expensive after taxes and what not.  But I will put that into consideration.  But he will also end up having to get a USB-C card in order to use the front i/o so add that to the overall cost too.  Which begs the question, why bother spending all of that when I can get a decent board that has all of that and just works when I get it all installed?
> 
> You see, I have been building machines since Socket A days.  And from my memory, back then the difference in motherboards was the North Bridge chipset.  As time has gone on, and the removal of that, then it really boiled down to quality of onboard components.  Now I would presume that MSI and the rest will be using semi decent quality components on their boards, and he doesn't need special RGB nonsense, and he isn't fiddling around in the bios (and anyway, I have enough experience in MSI bios as lousy as it is).  So the question is - is it really necessary to spend more for a board when the other board will do the same, and overall be cheaper?
> 
> ...



isn't this what you're looking for?






As far as if its worth it the asus board definitely has a better vrm a 6 layer pcb a toslink audio output better bios imho.....  The asus board also has intel lan which I prefer over realtek


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

nice, i didnt see that.  I kept looking on the sides and not towards the middle.  Thanks.

BTW, that PCB on the MSI board I posted is also 6 layers.  But the ASUS will have a better VRM, I agree.


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> BTW, that PCB on the MSI board I posted is also 6 layers.  But the ASUS will have a better VRM, I agree.



On the boards data sheet it doesn't specify pcb layers and every board in its price range is 4 layers.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

oxrufiioxo said:


> On the boards data sheet it doesn't specify pcb layers and every board in its price range is 4 layers.



well, according to the MSI website:






						Z490-A PRO
					

Inspired from architectural design with the extended heatsink for having better thermal solution; high speed USB 3.2 Gen 2 solution, Core Boost, DDR4 Boost, 2.5Gbps LAN, Twin Turbo M.2 and M.2 Shield Frozr




					www.msi.com


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## oxrufiioxo (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> well, according to the MSI website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thats good at least they only cheaped out on the VRM to be fair it still looks quite a bit better than the terrible X570 version


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## Assimilator (Jun 3, 2020)

sepheronx said:


> He will need a USB-C header port



Wish you'd specified that up-front, along with the 8 cores and no AIO. It kinda pisses me off when I go and spend time trawling through websites trying to find things to help someone, then they come back and say "ah no that won't work because of <constraint they didn't mention up-front>". Because the result is their time is wasted because they had to read through my now-useless recommendations, and my time is wasted because I did the research to make said useless recommendations.

Sorry if that comes across as harsh, but in future, please just keep in mind that maximum detail is best for everyone.


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## sepheronx (Jun 3, 2020)

Assimilator said:


> Wish you'd specified that up-front, along with the 8 cores and no AIO. It kinda pisses me off when I go and spend time trawling through websites trying to find things to help someone, then they come back and say "ah no that won't work because of <constraint they didn't mention up-front>". Because the result is their time is wasted because they had to read through my now-useless recommendations, and my time is wasted because I did the research to make said useless recommendations.
> 
> Sorry if that comes across as harsh, but in future, please just keep in mind that maximum detail is best for everyone.



I believe I did a few times mention it earlier.

But I'll keep that in mind in future. Don't forget, this info also gets dumped on me as time goes on.

And none of your recommendations were useless. You did give good advice and it was still suitable to the build so don't feel like you wasted time.

It's not like the USB C is be all end all. It can be mitigated with a card.  I trust your guys opinions on this since many of you are long timers as well.  So cheer up!

As a note: I appreciate everyone's efforts in helping me build the best at the best price. The advice is well recieved and I also get better insight like @cucker tarlson view on 6/12 vs 8/16 and @Assimilator and @oxrufiioxo on motherboard choices. I apologize if I wasn't clear in the demands.  But because of you guys I managed to get prices down a bit and get a better overall build selected. My friend is OK with a USB C card.  And also @tabascosauz for his advice too.


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## cucker tarlson (Jun 3, 2020)

tbh 6 cores weren't mentioned strictly as an option for the build but rather to prove that saying 8c will be required in PCs cause of next gen consoles is just bogus.
and why isn't the OP allowed to change his mind during,i.e. about the AiO ? Isn't advice exactly what he came here for ?


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## sepheronx (Jun 11, 2020)

Edit: Issue is resolved.  I am not debating on what a customer is asking of me.  I just want the alienware so I can resell it and get my costs back + labor.

Things have changed due to lack of availability of parts from memoryexpress.  Only place I can buy from cause its the only place in Calgary, Alberta - Canada for computer parts.  The PSU suggest (RM650) is all sold out.  He needs this PC by Friday.  So I gotta choose some other PSU.  No, no 10600 because he wants 8 cores and 16 threads.  I dont care in the end if it matters or not for future games.  It is what he wants and its his money.  We can debate this till our faces turn blue.  Wont change anything in the end.  No AIO because I am not going to be held responsible if it fails and or there are leaks or whatever.  I am simply going air cooling because low maintenance and lower chance he will call me continuously about issues.  Plus its already out of his budget anyway.

This build is already giving me a headache and I havent even started yet.  I know he will be whiny on Friday when I take him to memory express to pick up the parts.

So since the RM650 is sold out, gotta get this instead: 





						Corsair TX Series TX750M Semi-Modular 80+ Gold Power Supply, 750W - 750-849 Watt - Memory Express Inc.
					






					www.memoryexpress.com
				




Hopefully that doesnt sell out in the next couple of days.

And it is the MSI motherboard since the z490 MSI boards got good recommendation and I trust hardware unboxed.  + its cheaper.

It already comes out to about $1200 his build.  $200 saved for upcoming GPU's.  He has zero control over his spending it seems and he will end up blowing it anway.


----------

