# Even More GeForce GTX 980 and GM204 Specs Tumble Out



## btarunr (Sep 16, 2014)

Ahead of its launch later this week, even more details of NVIDIA's upcoming GeForce GTX 980, and the 28 nm "GM204" silicon it's based on, tumbled out. To begin with, the GM204 silicon is confirmed to be built on the 28 nm silicon fab process. The chip bigger than that of the GK104, with a die area of 398 mm², yet smaller than the GK110, which measures 581 mm². Its transistor count is 5.2 billion, about 2 billion more than the GK104. 

The component hierarchy of GM204 is similar to that of the GM107 silicon, on which the GTX 750 Ti is based. The GPU features a 256-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface, and PCI-Express 3.0 x16 bus. The GigaThread Engine dispatches workload between four graphics processing clusters (GPCs), the basic subunit. Each GPC has a common raster engine shared between four streaming multiprocessors Maxwell (SMMs), which each hold 128 CUDA cores. The total CUDA core count is hence 2,048. The L2 cache has been quadrupled over GK104. The chip features 2 MB of it, compared to 512 KB on its predecessor. The GM204 features 64 ROPs, double that of the GK104, and should hence come with a strong geometry processing muscle. The chip features a revolutionary new 3-bit delta color compression technology that makes the most of the limited memory bus width of this chip.






Here are the final specifications of the GTX 980 and GTX 970, carved out of this chip.

*GeForce GTX 980* 
2,048 CUDA cores
128 TMUs, 64 ROPs
256-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface
4 GB standard memory amount
Core clock speeds of 1126 MHz, with 1216 MHz GPU Boost, and 7012 MHz memory
165W TDP
*GeForce GTX 970* 
1,664 CUDA cores
112 TMUs, 64 ROPs
256-bit wide GDDR5 memory interface
4 GB standard memory amount
Core clock speeds of 1051 MHz, with 1178 MHz GPU Boost, and 7012 MHz memory

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## GhostRyder (Sep 16, 2014)

That is one heck of a boost frequency and ram speed!


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## AlienIsGOD (Sep 16, 2014)

looking great spec wise


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## inthedark1980 (Sep 16, 2014)

So is the higher end be called the GTX 990 and the only assuming they could call the titan killer then GTX1000. Sounds a bit like a motorbike. But it will most likely have a name like Saturn or some shit like that


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## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 16, 2014)

64 ROPs on GM204 node? I felt like 32 or 48 made a lot more sense for the chip, the latter more so. What will GM200 have?


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## Ralfies (Sep 16, 2014)

Very happy to see more than 32 ROP's. IMO that's what holds back smaller memory bus designs, since bandwidth can be compensated for through other means(memory speed, cache, compression).


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## W1zzard (Sep 16, 2014)

inthedark1980 said:


> But it will most likely have a name like Saturn or some shit like that


and then you wonder how Apple can make more money than God, sticking with the same name and a super simple number scheme ...


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## FourtyTwo (Sep 16, 2014)

165W TDP for 780-like performance is awesome.


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## romeg (Sep 16, 2014)

I've not closely followed news of these new GPUs. The pricing isn't half bad, nor the specs, so I'm curious how the 980 will stack up against my Asus Direct CU II GTX 780Ti. All things considered, the 780Ti is a tough act to follow.


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## BorisDG (Sep 16, 2014)

FourtyTwo said:


> 165W TDP for 780-like performance is awesome.


I think that 980 is comparing even with 780Ti or?


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 16, 2014)

3-bit delta color compression technology

YAY more washed out textures... exVoodoo team at the helm lol...

Seriously, are the idiots? They are badly famous for their in inchip hardware crap dithering since Riva TNT times, in smaller scale they still cheat on that... I hate my nvidia cards for that. Noone says it is lossless... sigma delta modulations seldom are...

ROP are for 4K, that's natural as AMD has a advantage there, but weak bus will introduce serious problems with traditional anti aliasing, it may spank badly... they try to compensate it with high frequency specs, but you never can outmatch the hardware pipe wideness...

But still it will benchmark fast... but... real time scenarios... khem khem... we do like SSAA, do we? If using triple monitors it is still needed despite 4K render resolution...


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## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 16, 2014)

BorisDG said:


> I think that 980 is comparing even with 780Ti or?



its been said it'll sit in between the 780 and 780Ti, but that was before THESE specs.


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## FourtyTwo (Sep 16, 2014)

Ferrum Master said:


> 3-bit delta color compression technology
> 
> YAY more washed out textures... exVoodoo team at the helm lol...


Probably similar to the technique used by the AMD R9 285, a loss-less compression algorithm without any impact on the image quality.


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## Suka (Sep 16, 2014)

Looking like it will be a strong GPU same for the 970. Compression everywhere


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## dj-electric (Sep 16, 2014)

To be honest, i'm quite disappointed if the specs and prices are right.

I hoped for them to make a true step ahead in GTX 900 series. There were talkings about a 3200 core part, witch at the time seemed too good to be true.

I did not expect the GTX 970 part to contain a mare 1664 shader count, or the GTX 980 part to have 2048. This leaves plenty of room for them to milk 2304 and 2560 parts as-well. Especially considering the low TDP.


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## Silas Woodruff (Sep 16, 2014)

That performance with just 165 watts, that is quite impressive, I like it.


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 16, 2014)

FourtyTwo said:


> Probably similar to the technique used by the AMD R9 285, a loss-less compression algorithm without any impact on the image quality.



Won't happen, less significant bit will be omitted for sure, I dig up the patent, it has a destructive mode that offers this magic thus making compensation the lack of  a third of the bus, the seconds... those both cards are rubbish... especially considering that his faster 7970 predecessor is a aging 2 year grandpa...

And we all know... that any kind of algorithm in between introduces more latency...

We are being fed for the same for too many years...


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## BorisDG (Sep 16, 2014)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> its been said it'll sit in between the 780 and 780Ti, but that was before THESE specs.


So now with THESE specs? Where is positioned?


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## 64K (Sep 16, 2014)

BorisDG said:


> So now with THESE specs? Where is positioned?



According to the source the OP cited the GTX 980 will be launched this Friday. I suspect we will see some reviews very soon and then we will know. It's just a few days.


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## Sihastru (Sep 16, 2014)

Ferrum Master said:


> 3-bit delta color compression technology YAY more washed out textures... exVoodoo team at the helm lol... Seriously, are the idiots?



Delta compression is lossless. AMD uses a similar method for the 285. Most cloud backup services use a similar method.


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## Yellow&Nerdy? (Sep 16, 2014)

I have to say, I'm really impressed with how efficient Maxwell really is. Just imagine the type of performance per watt numbers Nvidia will be able to deliver when they shrink it down to 16nm FINFET... I think getting a decent 4K gaming experience on a single GPU might be closer than we think.


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## W1zzard (Sep 16, 2014)

Sihastru said:


> Most cloud backup services use a similar method.



source? delta compression is not very efficient (but fast) compared to real compression algorithms. i'd expect most backup services to use deduplication techniques to store identical files or disk blocks just once, and some might use compression not unlike zip


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## RejZoR (Sep 16, 2014)

Everyone wanking on the efficiency.  If you want efficiency, stay with stupid integrated crap. I don't care what the TDP is for as long as performance justifyes the insane prices we are expected to pay every time for tiny small bumps in performance. It's idiotic. Every new card brings cost of 500 EUR, yet it gives what, 10-15% more performance. Which is pretty much useless difference.


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## MikeMurphy (Sep 16, 2014)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> To be honest, i'm quite disappointed if the specs and prices are right.
> 
> I hoped for them to make a true step ahead in GTX 900 series. There were talkings about a 3200 core part, witch at the time seemed too good to be true.
> 
> I did not expect the GTX 970 part to contain a mare 1664 shader count, or the GTX 980 part to have 2048. This leaves plenty of room for them to milk 2304 and 2560 parts as-well. Especially considering the low TDP.



Not at 28nm they won't.  Expect an increase with a die shrink.


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## Sihastru (Sep 16, 2014)

W1zzard said:


> source? delta compression is not very efficient (but fast) compared to real compression algorithms. i'd expect most backup services to use deduplication techniques to store identical files or disk blocks just once, and some might use compression not unlike zip



dropbox is one example that comes to mind. They use a "delta" api mostly to keep track of changes to files, but also to cut down on space and bandwidth usage. The api is even exposed to developers as a service.

Of course backup services use every trick in the book to save on space usage.

It could also be just jargon...


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## Mathragh (Sep 16, 2014)

Well if these specs, especially the TDP, appear to be correct at the friday launch, then I'll be quite impressed.
I never really took those efficiency diagrams Nvidia pushed out that serious as most of the marketing stuff is usually full of fluff, or obvious. This time however they seem to have pulled it off, without even using a die shrink. Awesome. Lets hope their competitor can pull off something similar for us all to enjoy.


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## Recus (Sep 16, 2014)

Ferrum Master said:


> 3-bit delta color compression technology
> 
> YAY more washed out textures... exVoodoo team at the helm lol...
> 
> ...



Stop using placebo effect as major factor.


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## The Von Matrices (Sep 16, 2014)

64K said:


> According to the source the OP cited the GTX 980 will be launched this Friday.


I have trouble believing it will be released on a Friday.  As a general rule of PR, you put out bad news on Fridays to minimize publicity since there is less chance of the press reporting on it over the weekend compared to a weekday.  If you want to maximize publicity, you release on a Monday so that it shows up in the news the next day and throughout the week.


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 16, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> I have trouble believing it will be released on a Friday.  As a general rule of PR, you put out bad news on Fridays to minimize publicity since there is less chance of the press reporting on it over the weekend compared to a weekday.  If you want to maximize publicity, you release on a Monday so that it shows up in the news the next day and throughout the week.



Not very nice psychology but... (psychology in general is a dirty wh**re, those who created men in this awful shape, need to go back to the drawing boards and create something better  )

i have another logic... because Friday is the most waited day for many, perhaps their attitude would be much more welcome and they will accept the product more warmly thus this will ensure even better demand, etc.


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## W1zzard (Sep 16, 2014)

Sihastru said:


> dropbox is one example that comes to mind. They use a "delta" api mostly to keep track of changes to files, but also to cut down on space and bandwidth usage. The api is even exposed to developers as a service.
> 
> Of course backup services use every trick in the book to save on space usage.
> 
> It could also be just jargon...


did a quick google search. looks like the transfer from your hdd to their server is done using delta compression, which makes sense to conserve bandwidth and increase throughput. 

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/...ment-delta-encoding-if-their-files-are-stored


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## utengineer (Sep 16, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> i have another logic... because Friday is the most waited day for many, perhaps their attitude would be much more welcome and they will accept the product more warmly thus this will ensure even better demand, etc.



Maybe, there is no logic needed...It is not like people are lining up outside Best Buy to get a new video card. <--snarky voice

Yet. let me use logic.  NVIDIA's first global gaming event, game24, starts Thursday, the 18th.  I am no marketing expert, but I will bet a 3$ bill they planned the GTX900 series announcement for that event.


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## TheMailMan78 (Sep 16, 2014)

W1zzard said:


> and then you wonder how Apple can make more money than God, sticking with the same name and a super simple number scheme ...


Super simple sells.........super simple and tits.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 16, 2014)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> To be honest, i'm quite disappointed if the specs and prices are right.
> I hoped for them to make a true step ahead in GTX 900 series. There were talkings about a 3200 core part, witch at the time seemed too good to be true.
> I did not expect the GTX 970 part to contain a mare 1664 shader count, or the GTX 980 part to have 2048. This leaves plenty of room for them to milk 2304 and 2560 parts as-well. Especially considering the low TDP.


If the full GM 204 die is 2048 cores, how do you expect a 2304 or 2560 part to eventuate?
Bear in mind that the GM 204 replaces the GK 104 (1536 shaders) in the vendors hierarchy, not the GK 110.
G80 -> GT200 -> GF100/110 -> GK110 -> GM 200
G92 -> M.I.A.  -> GK104/114 -> GK104 -> GM204
New GPU in the same general performance range doesn't automatically mean it replaces the SKU's. I don't think anyone is expecting the fully enabled Tonga (285X) Volcanic Islands to replace the Hawaii (Sea Islands) GPU are they?


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## GorbazTheDragon (Sep 16, 2014)

GhostRyder said:


> That is one heck of a boost frequency and ram speed!


Should hope so... 28nm has been around for a really long time now.

What I'm interested is if they have actually been able to improve the voltage and thermal capabilities of the architecture, in that case, these low power density chips will really be able to take advantage of higher current VRM solutions.


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## ensabrenoir (Sep 16, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> I have trouble believing it will be released on a Friday.  As a general rule of PR, you put out bad news on Fridays to minimize publicity since there is less chance of the press reporting on it over the weekend compared to a weekday.  If you want to maximize publicity, you release on a Monday so that it shows up in the news the next day and throughout the week.



...Friday is also PAYDAY for most of the known world.........ok maybe just America


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## GorbazTheDragon (Sep 16, 2014)

ensabrenoir said:


> ...Friday is also PAYDAY for most of the known world.........ok maybe just America


I think it is over here in the UK too, my history teacher keeps reminding us that it's payday some time soon (I never listen)


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## buildzoid (Sep 16, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> If the full GM 204 die is 2048 cores, how do you expect a 2304 or 2560 part to eventuate?
> Bear in mind that the GM 204 replaces the GK 104 (1536 shaders) in the vendors hierarchy, not the GK 110.
> G80 -> GT200 -> GF100/110 -> GK110 -> GM 200
> G92 -> M.I.A.  -> GK104/114 -> GK104 -> GM204
> New GPU in the same general performance range doesn't automatically mean it replaces the SKU's. I don't think anyone is expecting the fully enabled Tonga (285X) Volcanic Islands to replace the Hawaii (Sea Islands) GPU are they?


The 285 and 285X are both smaller numbers than 290 and 290X. The 980 is a bigger number than the 780 Ti and slightly slower which is misleading because in the past the bigger number was always better.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 16, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> I have trouble believing it will be released on a Friday.  As a general rule of PR, you put out bad news on Fridays to minimize publicity since there is less chance of the press reporting on it over the weekend compared to a weekday.  If you want to maximize publicity, you release on a Monday so that it shows up in the news the next day and throughout the week.


I'll buy that. I was under the impression that the reveal (announcement) was the 18th/19th, but cards wouldn't straight away - likely at the beginning of a week as you said. I'm guessing W1zzards "thanks" on your post backs up that assertion also, as would a Mon-Tues launch day if some of the scores leaking out are any indication.


buildzoid said:


> The 285 and 285X are both smaller numbers than 290 and 290X. The 980 is a bigger number than the 780 Ti and slightly slower which is misleading because in the past the bigger number was always better.


Firstly, the GTX 680 (second tier GPU) outperformed the GTX 580 (top tier GPU). Precedent...as is the reverse (GTX 650 Ti Boost outperforming the GTX 750 TI) The naming conventions don't always make logical sense for either company since the HD 6870 also fell short of the HD 5870 - and yes I'm aware that AMD shifted their numerical naming convention up one sequence for N.I. but it still doesn't alter the "one number is bigger than the other" argument you're making.


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 16, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> Firstly, the GTX 680 (second tier GPU) outperformed the GTX 580 (top tier GPU). Precedent...as is the reverse (GTX 650 Ti Boost outperforming the GTX 750 TI) The naming conventions don't always make logical sense for either company since the HD 6870 also fell short of the HD 5870 - and yes I'm aware that AMD shifted their numerical naming convention up one sequence for N.I. but it still doesn't alter the "one number is bigger than the other" argument you're making.



You are messing very annoyingly, as the guys from nvidia do, it's simply their greed and marketing frauds doing this. It is a new generation of video cards, 700 series was a thing of the past, now there is a new one, and of course, they even skipped the 800 series.

It is almost like rebranding. Very very bad and misleading. One needs to monitor very closely not to be misled by these numbering shenanigans.

Until very recently, everything with numbers was ok, now it came as a dirty idea in their minds. Wondering why they waste their times and don't think of something better.

In an ideal, honest and good world, these GM204 would be put in GTX 860 Ti, 860, etc. But no, it is in 980 and 970.


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## dj-electric (Sep 16, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> If the full GM 204 die is 2048 cores, how do you expect a 2304 or 2560 part to eventuate?
> Bear in mind that the GM 204 replaces the GK 104 (1536 shaders) in the vendors hierarchy, not the GK 110.
> G80 -> GT200 -> GF100/110 -> GK110 -> GM 200
> G92 -> M.I.A.  -> GK104/114 -> GK104 -> GM204
> New GPU in the same general performance range doesn't automatically mean it replaces the SKU's. I don't think anyone is expecting the fully enabled Tonga (285X) Volcanic Islands to replace the Hawaii (Sea Islands) GPU are they?



That's exactly the problem. That they decided that the GM204 would be a 2048 core, 180W part. I expected a bit more than that. It's not like they said "there's nothing we can do about it, it must be a 2048 core part", they could design it to be a bit more beefier.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 16, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> You are messing very annoyingly


Sorry if the facts get in the way of your imaginary world. If you're more keen on making this a personal thing rather than a factual thing we can go that way, no problem.


Sony Xperia S said:


> as the guys from nvidia do, it's simply their greed and marketing frauds doing this. It is a new generation of video cards, 700 series was a thing of the past, now there is a new one, and of course, they even skipped the 800 series.


1. I think you'll find that the 800 series are alive and well as mobile MXM's
2. The 700 series were a mix or architectures (Fermi and Kepler). The R5/R7/R9 series from AMD is also a mix of architectures - not just Volcanic Islands and Southern Islands but the 4.5 year old Evergreen series and the 3.5 year old Northern Islands - yet Nvidia are greedy and marketing frauds and you've never said a word against AMD's conglomeration of architectures or their "skipping" of the HD 8000 series. Quite an oversight


Sony Xperia S said:


> It is almost like rebranding. Very very bad and misleading. One needs to monitor very closely not to be misled by these numbering shenanigans.


Yet you choose to overlook AMD's rebranding. Is rebranding suddenly gaining importance for you personally over the last few months?......this is shades of your diatribe regarding the importance of double precision which suddenly became disinterest when AMD cut the rate from 1:4 in Tahiti to 1:16 in Tonga.


Sony Xperia S said:


> Until very recently, everything with numbers was ok, now it came as a dirty idea in their minds. Wondering why they waste their times and don't think of something better.


The consumer doesn't win in any event. What is the difference between a whole new naming nomenclature with the same silicon ( 9800GTX+  -> GTS 250, HD 7970 -> R9 280X) or an incremental change in numbers? There is no substitute for doing your homework before making a purchase, and there certainly isn't any truth to the rumour that marketing is designed to make the facts crystal clear to the consumer.


Dj-ElectriC said:


> That's exactly the problem. That they decided that the GM204 would be a 2048 core, 180W part. I expected a bit more than that. It's not like they said "there's nothing we can do about it, it must be a 2048 core part", they could design it to be a bit more beefier.


Probably reflects the economics of the time. Discrete graphics card sales are down, and process costs will go up. It seems likely that Maxwell (and AMD's Tonga etc) will both be die shrunk on TSMC's 16nmFF process, so getting the highest performance for the yield without pricing themselves out of the market will be the order of the day.
Large dies tend to pay for themselves through professional board sales, but that is a finite market so it becomes very unproductive to apply a large GPU down the consumer product stack.


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 17, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> It seems likely that Maxwell (and AMD's Tonga etc) will both be die shrunk on TSMC's 16nmFF process



I hope you are wrong and AMD actually go to 20 nm first as soon as possible. nvidia can follow afterwards with 16 nm. 



HumanSmoke said:


> The consumer doesn't win in any event.



Sure, companies always tend to give customers the smallest possible sellable quantity and quality.
And they are very stupid for doing so.
First because actually not their employees but the customers are their greatest asset, and second, because they can up the quality of what they offer to the maximum so customers are not forced to buy the product and at the same time to curse the company for the price.

When giving higher quality, they will still improve over generations, and will look better in our eyes. The standard itself will be higher.



HumanSmoke said:


> Discrete graphics card sales are down



Normal, how do you expect sales to climb after what I'm telling you. Customers are not happy and it will get worse.

nvidia will go blindly in their way because they say so. 

Do you think that customers will not buy with the same 'success' a $599.99 GTX 860 Ti compared to the same $599.99 GTX 980?


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 17, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> First because actually not their employees but the customers are their greatest asset, and second, because they can up the quality of what they offer to the maximum so customers are not forced to buy the product and at the same time to curse the company for the price.
> When giving higher quality, they will still improve over generations, and will look better in our eyes. The standard itself will be higher.


Discrete boards sold to enthusiasts are a drop in the bucket. The vast majority of sales are to OEMs who pretty much demand a new product every holiday season, and the people who buy an OEM system are more often than not buying a whole system rather than a mix and match set of components.
Theoretically, both companies could put out their most cutting edge products - but once you start, ANY slip in timetable brings criticism, and ANY part failing to measure up to any perceived metric previously reached will start getting the haters out in force. 4K is barely relevant as a statistic in usage, yet a significant portion of forum users across the net are whining and moaning about the lack of 5K and 8K support.
Give the consumer what they want and they just want more, and as for tech "enthusiasts", I've yet to meet any significant number that are content with ANY aspect of technology. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger bunch of self entitled ramblers anywhere. Give people a 150W card that does the job of a 250W card from the previous generation and they'll whine that it should be sub-30W and passive, give people HDMI 2.0 and they'll whine about (possibly) no DisplayPort 1.3 connectivity... or the card not being single slot, not shiny enough, not the right colour, not quiet enough, not cool enough, too big, too small (Hey! that doesn't look like a premium card!), not enough accessories they'll never use anyway - the list is endless. Like it or not, multi-billion dollar companies don't cater to a miniscule percentage of the market, especially one that will never be satisfied. You could provide a card that is butter smooth on a demanding title at 4K with 8 x SSAA/DoF/motion blur/HDAO applied, and the first thing out of a lot of peoples mouths would be a complaint that the company had previously been holding back, or the driver package is too large, or the software utilities aren't meaningful enough, or most likely - that the company cheated you because you can't push 2 volts through it. 

It's been this way for a while. The number of people of confuse "tech enthusiast" with "hyper-critical user with unrealistic expectations" seems to grow larger every product cycle. Intel could no doubt transform their 18-core E5-2699v3 into a desktop part, but how would they continue to keep topping something like that? The moment they slip up and "only" produce a 30-core next time around you have a bunch of people complaining because the rate of progress isn't to their satisfaction - basically back to square one. Sometimes, you just have to apply real world values rather than a wish list - businesses are about sustainability. and they'd soon go out of business if they had to come up with a new process node every year and offer cards for relative peanuts when they have to fork out $7+K per wafer.


Sony Xperia S said:


> Normal, how do you expect sales to climb after what I'm telling you. Customers are not happy and it will get worse.


The major reason discrete board sales are down is because of iGP's. Not everyone games, and of those who do, a fair percentage are casual or playing some inane flash PoS. Once upon a time integrated graphics were just a method for OEMs to cheap out on finding away to display video. That isn't really the case anymore when the vast majority of desktop processors include graphics - that is why sales are falling.


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## entropy13 (Sep 17, 2014)

Nvidia is hosting Game24 on Sept. 18. Having an announcement after it (i.e. Friday) is not some sort of "damage control" measure.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 17, 2014)

entropy13 said:


> Nvidia is hosting Game24 on Sept. 18. Having an announcement after it (i.e. Friday) is not some sort of "damage control" measure.


It IS an announcement and product launch, but I sincerely doubt that reviews will go up at the same time and cards will materialize in stores. Think of it like other recent product launches


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## cadaveca (Sep 17, 2014)

After Nvidia was hyping Volta as the next big thing earlier this year, I think it's not that prudent to expect too much out of NVidia GPUs until then. More power savings, and thereby lower cost of ownership, while maintaining decent performance for the same dollar, while increasing profitability, seems like one of the most excellent business maneuvers ever. It's hard to pull off that many successes all at the same time for any other company...

It's not like we have games or anything that really truly requires more, consoles are stagnant for a few years, and the only thing that can push GPU needs in the consumer market is higher-resolution monitors, and 3k/4k monitors have yet to gain traction. Looking at this from a business perspective, it's pretty exciting.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 17, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> The major reason discrete board sales are down is because of iGP's. Not everyone games, and of those who do, a fair percentage are casual or playing some inane flash PoS. Once upon a time integrated graphics were just a method for OEMs to cheap out on finding away to display video. That sn't really the case anymore when the vast majority of desktop processors include graphics - that is why sales are falling.



Yep, I foresee the day eventually when there are no more discrete graphics cards...I can only hope it will be because the Intel and AMD have come up with the graphics processing power we have in discrete cards now and beyond, and not because we've been forced to settle for cheap, browser based flash games.  But definitely, the low end, where the majority of GPU sales were, has almost been negated.


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## cadaveca (Sep 17, 2014)

rtwjunkie said:


> Yep, I foresee the day eventually when there are no more discrete graphics cards...




I'm still waiting for motherboards to be focused on socketed GPUs, and for CPUs to be add-in.


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## GhostRyder (Sep 17, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> After Nvidia was hyping Volta as the next big thing earlier this year, I think it's not that prudent to expect too much out of NVidia GPUs until then. More power savings, and thereby lower cost of ownership, while maintaining decent performance for the same dollar, while increasing profitability, seems like one of the most excellent business maneuvers ever. It's hard to pull off that many successes all at the same time for any other company...
> 
> It's not like we have games or anything that really truly requires more, consoles are stagnant for a few years, and the only thing that can push GPU needs in the consumer market is higher-resolution monitors, and 3k/4k monitors have yet to gain traction. Looking at this from a business perspective, it's pretty exciting.


Yea it seems to be that way, but I still believe the next gen should at least be superior to the parts it replaces which I am still hoping it will be.  I guess the point of Maxwell is exactly what they put as the focus which is lower power.  But I will say Cadaveca you have not yet seen Ryse being design for 4k 



cadaveca said:


> I'm still waiting for motherboards to be focused on socketed GPUs, and for CPUs to be add-in.


On that day I think I will have to laugh when I think back at this conversation.


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## romeg (Sep 17, 2014)

Indeed, this is a great conversation! My take is that I won't any better off in replacing my 780Ti with a 980. Since I'm extremely happy with my 780Ti there's no good reason to replace it.


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## xenocide (Sep 17, 2014)

romeg said:


> Indeed, this is a great conversation! My take is that I won't any better off in replacing my 780Ti with a 980. Since I'm extremely happy with my 780Ti there's no good reason to replace it.


 
The 980 is not intended to be a replacement for 780/780 Ti owners.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Sep 17, 2014)

Continuing reading latest nvidia patents... they seem to be on trolling rampage...

http://www.4-traders.com/NVIDIA-COR...ated-Vapor-Chamber-Published-Online-19027641/


----------



## HumanSmoke (Sep 17, 2014)

Ferrum Master said:


> Continuing reading latest nvidia patents... they seem to be on trolling rampage...


Talking of trolling...
1. This is a graphics card thread
2. The patent is for a specific heatpipe cooler (they also patented a fan design as well, but you probably missed that), and just about everyone has a patent for their particular implementation. Here's one of Intel's, and here's another of Nvidia's from 2007, and here's the one Asetek are using for AMD cards which is basically a full cover waterblock allied with a HDT cooler base - not overly original, but because of implementation it doesn't really affect anyone unless you try to copy it wholesale.

Back under that Latvian bridge with ya!


----------



## Sony Xperia S (Sep 17, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> 4K is barely relevant as a statistic in usage, yet a significant portion of forum users across the net are whining and moaning about the lack of 5K and 8K support.



This is just a pure exaggeration, and actually not true. 



HumanSmoke said:


> Give the consumer what they want and they just want more



Again exaggeration, probably false too. 



HumanSmoke said:


> they'll whine .... they'll whine ...... they'll never use anyway







HumanSmoke said:


> The number of people of confuse "tech enthusiast" with "hyper-critical user with unrealistic expectations" seems to grow larger every product cycle. Intel could no doubt transform their 18-core E5-2699v3 into a desktop part, but how would they continue to keep topping something like that?



Die shrinking? Optimising further the architecture?



HumanSmoke said:


> The moment they slip up and "only" produce a 30-core next time around you have a bunch of people complaining because the rate of progress isn't to their satisfaction



Again pure exaggeration. The companies slip up very often now and what? In this regard, I think the status quo will remain the same. 



HumanSmoke said:


> Sometimes, you just have to apply real world values rather than a wish list



Sometimes, the limitations are purely in someone's imagination. Who defines what "real" world value is or not?

The entire post of yours sounds very pessimistic and sceptic.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Sep 17, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> Back under that Latvian bridge with ya!



Actually this is a graphics cards leaked specs speculation thread alias gossips. And trying to understand how really the card clocks in memory department now, dig up few post up too skullface... and last submitted patents are in chain with this delta compression method.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 17, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Me said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why say probably, can't you be bothered in doing any basic research?
Here, let me help - How about something from the Harvard Business Review for starters.
As for the rest, it's either evident or it isn't. Either way...


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> This is just a pure exaggeration, and actually not
> true.
> 
> 
> ...



Actually no, he sounds very sensible, contrary to the fully self-centered approach you've adopted. Every single statement he made is bang on the money and proven every single day on every single techsite comment section.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Sep 17, 2014)

Vayra86 said:


> Actually no, he sounds very sensible, contrary to the fully self-centered approach you've adopted. Every single statement he made is bang on the money and proven every single day on every single techsite comment section.



first post?


----------



## RCoon (Sep 17, 2014)

Am I the only person who looks at core count and wonders if the 9xx series has a hope of matching the 780 and 780ti?
I mean I get it, core count isn't everything, but it counts for a lot. Full fat 780ti is in excess of 2800 cores. Full fat 980 is only 2048. Forgive me for being a caveman, but I don't see how the 970 or 980 are going to have a hope in hell competing against flagship kepler gpu's. Sure they're power efficient, and might have a little performance increase from architectural improvement, but I don't see 2000 cores being better than 2800, or even that close.

If some GPU engineer would enlighten me how these cards will be remotely on equal footing, (and I mean really close, equal), then maybe the rumoured prices will make some sense to me.


----------



## HumanSmoke (Sep 17, 2014)

RCoon said:


> Am I the only person who looks at core count and wonders if the 9xx series has a hope of matching the 780 and 780ti?
> I mean I get it, core count isn't everything, but it counts for a lot. Full fat 780 is in excess of 2800 cores. Full fat 980 is only 2048. Forgive me for being a caveman, but I don't see how the 970 or 980 are going to have a hope in hell competing against flagship kepler gpu's. Sure they're power efficient, and might have a little performance increase from architectural improvement, but I don't see 2000 cores being better than 2800, or even that close.
> 
> If some GPU engineer would enlighten me how these cards will be remotely on equal footing, (and I mean really close, equal), then maybe the rumoured prices will make some sense to me.


Well, I'm no GPU engineer, but I pretty much agree with your confusion!
It looks like the GM 204's lack of cores and bandwidth are offset to a degree by a large L2 cache, ROP count (probably a little overkill for a 256-bit card), colour compression (still dubious on that one), and a huge increase in clockspeed. If rumours are right, the stock clock on the 980 is 1126M which is almost 30% higher than the 780 Ti, and the boost clock just widens the gap.
Still hard to think that the GM 204 will live with the GK 110 (and Hawaii) at high resolutions and image quality settings though. We'll find out soon enough.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 17, 2014)

@RCoon: Thats exactly what I've been saying in here too. They are taking this mid-level GM204 and charging a top-end price (if the price rumor is true), for simply giving a 980 their flagship naming convention. If they did it with the GM200/210 I could understand it...


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## RCoon (Sep 17, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> Well, I'm no GPU engineer, but I pretty much agree with your confusion!
> It looks like the GM 204's lack of cores and bandwidth are offset to a degree by a large L2 cache, ROP count (probably a little overkill for a 256-bit card), colour compression (still dubious on that one), and a huge increase in clockspeed. If rumours are right, the stock clock on the 980 is 1126M which is almost 30% higher than the 780 Ti, and the boost clock just widens the gap.
> Still hard to think that the GM 204 will live with the GK 110 (and Hawaii) at high resolutions and image quality settings though. We'll find out soon enough.



Yeah, all pretty strange to me, that's why I don't think these speculated prices are correct at all. However the colour compression worries me. I know the 285 uses it (and it works), but I'm really not a fan of my images being messed with. I don't care how amazing their compression form is, it's going to erk me.
I understand it's not meant to compete with the 780ti, but it's still about 200+ cores away from the 780 (which I assume they will offset by setting core and boost clocks so high).
I'm just going to assume they'll eventually make the die larger to fit in more cores, which will inevitably increase the heat and power, but being Maxwell it will be more efficient. One thing we don't know is just how well the Maxwell archi scales. Then there's the inevitable 970ti with 14-15 SMM's in the future.

Quite simply I don't know, I'm just sceptical about these specs in their current form, and the price makes no sense to me.



rtwjunkie said:


> @RCoon: Thats exactly what I've been saying in here too. They are taking this mid-level GM204 and charging a top-end price (if the price rumor is true), for simply giving a 980 their flagship naming convention. If they did it with the GM200/210 I could understand it...



Well they did it with the 6xx series, why not do it again.


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## FourtyTwo (Sep 17, 2014)

RCoon said:


> Am I the only person who looks at core count and wonders if the 9xx series has a hope of matching the 780 and 780ti?


A "core" is a generic expression, it doesn't indicate any kind of performance level.
The cores of the GM 204 can very well have different performance than the previous generation.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 17, 2014)

RCoon said:


> Well they did it with the 6xx series, why not do it again.


 
Good point!


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## RCoon (Sep 17, 2014)

FourtyTwo said:


> it doesn't indicate any kind of performance level.



By that logic 1 core = 2880 cores. It does in fact indicate performance when you're looking at two architectures built on the same 28nm process. Performance increases will be minimal at best (+-10%), further improved by the compression technique both companies seem to be adopting.


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 17, 2014)

Vayra86 said:


> Actually no, he sounds very sensible, contrary to the fully self-centered approach you've adopted. Every single statement he made is bang on the money and proven every single day on every single techsite comment section.



Self-centred approach goes only out of nvidia. I'm thinking about the good of customers, and on the second level, the good of the company which actually tends to adopt a very unsustainable policy with these ever growing price increases and ever declining sales.


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 17, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Self-centred approach goes only out of nvidia. I'm thinking about the good of customers, and on the second level, the good of the company which actually tends to adopt a very unsustainable policy with these ever growing price increases and ever declining sales.


 
Declining sales, yes.  But not because of any business practice.  Low-end card sales for both GPU companies have nearly dried up with so many CPU's now sporting decent low-end graphics.  As for whether Nvidia is hurting, no.  Their prices aren't hurting the company in the least.  I believe last month's sales figures for the previous quarter showed Nvidia made as much money as AMD, and AMD's figures were COMBINED GPU, CPU and APU figures.  So, Nvidia will charge whatever the market will allow.  As long as we buy at high prices, there is no reason for Nvidia to lower them  It's unfortunate for some, but true.


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 17, 2014)

RCoon said:


> I'm really not a fan of my images being messed with. I don't care how amazing their compression form is, it's going to erk me.



Well AMD at least operates still with 10bit RGB data still, geforces still use 8bit and nothing more, leaving exclusive thing for quadro cards... thus leaving the question open for full fledged Maxwell Quadro and his likeness...

The patents are way to non specific and describe various methods picking up the data mask and then stacking it in rows telling we already sent this batch and is same with that thus reducing workload... and the methods can be lossy and lossless, that depends on the will of the manufacturer... it even can be dynamic... I hope they are not so evil writing the block firmware...

So we get a obviously a tweaked Titan with Tegra features, and cut down to 680 sizes for better yield, higher clocks as we are using the same tech node, but more laid down, less leakage(thumbs up TSMC), and milking money again...

And there was a upper comment about placebo thing... peps using plain TN's 6bit frc and shouting I don't see the difference - will actually also never notice the difference just hardware wise...  just my five cents.


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## CookieMonsta (Sep 17, 2014)

RCoon said:


> Am I the only person who looks at core count and wonders if the 9xx series has a hope of matching the 780 and 780ti?
> I mean I get it, core count isn't everything, but it counts for a lot. Full fat 780ti is in excess of 2800 cores. Full fat 980 is only 2048. Forgive me for being a caveman, but I don't see how the 970 or 980 are going to have a hope in hell competing against flagship kepler gpu's. Sure they're power efficient, and might have a little performance increase from architectural improvement, but I don't see 2000 cores being better than 2800, or even that close.
> 
> If some GPU engineer would enlighten me how these cards will be remotely on equal footing, (and I mean really close, equal), then maybe the rumoured prices will make some sense to me.



According to Anandtech, NVIDIA designed the Maxwell SMM (128 cores) to deliver 90% of the Kepler SMX (192 cores) performance at a much greater energy efficiency. From this, the Kepler SMX has 50% more cores, thus we can safely say that the Maxwell SMM (i.e. 128 Maxwell cores) delivers 40% more performance than Kepler cores.

Therefore, the 2048 Maxwell cores of the GTX 980 is equivalent 2867 Kepler cores of the same clockspeed. I.e. I'm confident the 980 will easily match or beat GK110 at least in shading power.

This massive improvement in IPC has already been seen on the Laptops. The 860M (640 Maxwell) overclocked to 1300mhz can deliver 90% of the GTX 870M (1344 cores) performance at stock.

Secondly, the large L2 cache of the Maxwell cores supposedly has a magnifying effect on the VRAM bandwidth, this is difficult to estimate but I think the figures of +50% to outright doubling on the bandwidth has been thrown around by the Beyond3D guys.

Apparently, the cost of this extra 40% IPC from the SMM units is the larger die area due to the more compartmentalized nature of Maxwell vs Kepler.


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## GhostRyder (Sep 17, 2014)

rtwjunkie said:


> Declining sales, yes.  But not because of any business practice.  Low-end card sales for both GPU companies have nearly dried up with so many CPU's now sporting decent low-end graphics.  As for whether Nvidia is hurting, no.  Their prices aren't hurting the company in the least.  I believe last month's sales figures for the previous quarter showed Nvidia made as much money as AMD, and AMD's figures were COMBINED GPU, CPU and APU figures.  So, Nvidia will charge whatever the market will allow.  As long as we buy at high prices, there is no reason for Nvidia to lower them  It's unfortunate for some, but true.


There in lies the problem in my book, it's not so much them charging the prices but the consumer buying it.  We can whine and moan all we want but if we fork over the money what are we telling them ("them" being generic).



Ferrum Master said:


> Continuing reading latest nvidia patents... they seem to be on trolling rampage...
> 
> http://www.4-traders.com/NVIDIA-COR...ated-Vapor-Chamber-Published-Online-19027641/


Well while I agree it's just another lock out patent that could be used in the wrong way it's just for their recent design on the cooler.  However after reading it seems to be very vague which could be a problem in the future.



RCoon said:


> Am I the only person who looks at core count and wonders if the 9xx series has a hope of matching the 780 and 780ti?
> I mean I get it, core count isn't everything, but it counts for a lot. Full fat 780ti is in excess of 2800 cores. Full fat 980 is only 2048. Forgive me for being a caveman, but I don't see how the 970 or 980 are going to have a hope in hell competing against flagship kepler gpu's. Sure they're power efficient, and might have a little performance increase from architectural improvement, but I don't see 2000 cores being better than 2800, or even that close.
> 
> If some GPU engineer would enlighten me how these cards will be remotely on equal footing, (and I mean really close, equal), then maybe the rumoured prices will make some sense to me.


Well I do my math by looking over the specs of the GTX 750ti vs the GTX 650ti.  The 650ti has 768 cores at 928base clock on a 128bit bus giving 5.4gbs for memory speed while the GTX 750ti has 640 cores at 1020 (Boost of 1085) on a 128bit bus giving the same 5.4gbs for memory speed as well.  Comparing the two the performance difference generally runs in the range of ~25% depending on the game of course which shows that even with a core deficit of 20% the 750ti performs 25% better (But that also has to take into account the boost clock of 1085 vs the 928 clock on the 650ti).  So I guess it just comes down to if and how much better the new architecture that has evolved from the first taste of the GM architecture and its scaling with more cores on top of these extreme core clocks.  As far as the architecture is concerned the person above linked to Anandtech which is what I was about to do so he beat me to it that does a decent job with explaining the new architectural changes.

Like I said I am still going to wait until we see the real deal benchmarks and everything is all out in the open.


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## Avlin (Sep 17, 2014)

see this updated post on geeks3d.com :

http://www.geeks3d.com/20140915/nvi...d-gtx-980-latest-news-specs-gpu-z-msi-gaming/


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## utengineer (Sep 17, 2014)

Avlin said:


> see this updated post on geeks3d.com :
> 
> http://www.geeks3d.com/20140915/nvi...d-gtx-980-latest-news-specs-gpu-z-msi-gaming/



Interesting.  Looks like CompuBench has already done their performance testing on the GTX980 versus the Titan.  At *Screen:* 3840 x 2160!

http://compubench.com/compare.jsp?b...1=cl&D2=NVIDIA+GeForce+GTX+TITAN+Black&cols=2


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## D007 (Sep 17, 2014)

Looks like I'm not upgrading til next release then.



utengineer said:


> Interesting.  Looks like CompuBench has already done their performance testing on the GTX980 versus the Titan.  At *Screen:* 3840 x 2160!
> 
> http://compubench.com/compare.jsp?benchmark=compu20&D1=NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980&os1=Windows&api1=cl&D2=NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN Black&cols=2



Unless those specs are right.
4k looks like a big jump on this series.


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## utengineer (Sep 17, 2014)

D007 said:


> Unless those specs are right.
> 4k looks like a big jump on this series.


.

I mentioned this before and I am not a GPU guru, but the GTX980 64 ROP should benefit 4k+ users.  The Titan only has 48.


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## GhostRyder (Sep 17, 2014)

utengineer said:


> .
> 
> I mentioned this before and I am not a GPU guru, but the GTX980 64 ROP should benefit 4k+ users.  The Titan only has 48.


Yes and that is going to make a nice difference for this series of cards on top of the extra 1gb over the previous generation.  I really like these cards already more and more especially once I saw the 3 DP on it.  Its almost tempting me...


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## rtwjunkie (Sep 17, 2014)

I have to admit, despite my reservations about these cards for replacing my 780, I think a 970 would be a huge upgrade for my fiance's GTX 660 Ti FTW.  She uses Photoshop, and games, so the whole thing sounds like a big plus for her.  I'll be looking forward to the first 970 reviews.


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## D007 (Sep 17, 2014)

utengineer said:


> .
> 
> I mentioned this before and I am not a GPU guru, but the GTX980 64 ROP should benefit 4k+ users.  The Titan only has 48.



That's what I care about.
Just got a 4k. 
ty.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 17, 2014)

According to SiSoft, the GTX 980 is boosting to *1630MHz* from its 1126MHz base clock. No wonder the thing is close to GK 110 !

And it looks like AMD are having second thoughts on the 285X....unless they plan on naming it something else


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## sergionography (Sep 17, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> According to SiSoft, the GTX 980 is boosting to *1630MHz* from its 1126MHz base clock. No wonder the thing is close to GK 110 !
> 
> And it looks like AMD are having second thoughts on the 285X....unless they plan on naming it something else



Regardless of clock speed the Maxwell cores if I rememer correctly should be about 30-35% faster than Kepler that's before we even look at power use. That being said 2048 Maxwell cores should be a match to the 2880kepler cores on the gtx780ti, this is at the same clock, so this having over 25% clock boast over it will sure give it an advantage but then let's factor in bandwidth and what not then I won't be surprised if gtx980 was faster than gtx780ti by 10% and maybe reaching 20% in some best case scenarios.

As for amd they also have some tricks up their sleeves, except for the power use. even though they keep improving efficiency in graphics, instead of turning it into better power saving they seem to just use that real estate to add compute features. as for the r9 285 it's obvious amd crippled the chip as much as possible to kind of show off how they can match the 280-280x with much less resources and bandwidth, so take into consideration that it's a harvested chip with disabled units so only the full 285x will show us what this new amd architecture (or GCN tweak I shall say) Is capable of. However to target gtx760 as a competitor is just a very poor choice indeed timing wise. the only  problem with releasing the r9 285x now is that it will most likely beat Hawaii especially if the chip turns out to have a 384bit bus. So amd won't release it yet


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 18, 2014)

sergionography said:


> Regardless of clock speed the Maxwell cores if I rememer correctly should be about 30-35% faster than Kepler that's before we even look at power use.


There is no strict baseline to work from since GM 107's analog is GK 106 (wider bus), and the GK 107 isn't built for performance - it has no boost capability. But if you compare bus width to bus width (128-bit) then
GM 107 (GTX 750 Ti) vs GK 107 (GTX 650) : 640 core vs 384 (*66.67% advantage*), both feature 16 ROPS, both have a 128-bit bus width, 40 TMU vs 32 for the GTX 650 ( *25% advantage*)  , memory clock/bandwidth  : 5400 effective vs 5000 / 86.4GB/s vs 80 ( *8% advantage*), clocks are nominally similar 1020 base/ 1085 boost (actual average 1140MHz)  vs 1058 for the GTX 650 ( *7.8% advantage*). Power consumption is similar.
Actual performance difference: *79.4%* at 1920x1020, and* 83.9%* at 2560x1600.............so, not quite as pronounced as it would seem given the difference in specification

This is obviously a gaming-only scenario and is only applicable to the two GPUs - it doesn't account for many other metrics, or how the cache hierarchy scales on a larger die. That aside, I believe the core speed increase will be a major factor in the performance boost of the GM 204 WRT GK 110. We'll see when GTX 980 review benchmarks surface and how overclocking a 780 Ti against it affects the differential. The only real measure of gains in architectural efficiency will need a clock-for-clock (within reason) comparison.


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 18, 2014)

I think AMD Radeon R9 285X with full Tonga with good optimised drivers and proper frequencies can compete very successfully at least with GTX 970.


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## sergionography (Sep 18, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> There is no strict baseline to work from since GM 107's analog is GK 106 (wider bus), and the GK 107 isn't built for performance - it has no boost capability. But if you compare bus width to bus width (128-bit) then
> GM 107 (GTX 750 Ti) vs GK 107 (GTX 650) : 640 core vs 384 (*66.67% advantage*), both feature 16 ROPS, both have a 128-bit bus width, 40 TMU vs 32 for the GTX 650 ( *25% advantage*)  , memory clock/bandwidth  : 5400 effective vs 5000 / 86.4GB/s vs 80 ( *8% advantage*), clocks are nominally similar 1020 base/ 1085 boost (actual average 1140MHz)  vs 1058 for the GTX 650 ( *7.8% advantage*). Power consumption is similar.
> Actual performance difference: *79.4%* at 1920x1020, and* 83.9%* at 2560x1600.............so, not quite as pronounced as it would seem given the difference in specification
> 
> This is obviously a gaming-only scenario and is only applicable to the two GPUs - it doesn't account for many other metrics, or how the cache hierarchy scales on a larger die. That aside, I believe the core speed increase will be a major factor in the performance boost of the GM 204 WRT GK 110. We'll see when GTX 980 review benchmarks surface and how overclocking a 780 Ti against it affects the differential. The only real measure of gains in architectural efficiency will need a clock-for-clock (within reason) comparison.


Well I didn't get too fine with the calculation and just went by what nvidia claimed about the claimed improvement in the Maxwell architecture and it's performance vs Kepler so in other words I made a general assumption similar to what nvidia might've expected out of this chip when they started the design process. On another note the die size I think is the perfect size where u have plenty resources yet u don't miss on clock speed unlike those huge chips of the titan and 780 ti. And if this gm204 is truly the successor of gk204 then it's a great step forward for sure


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 18, 2014)

Maxwell is to nvidia what Core 2 was to Intel (when Pentium M's qualities were transferred to the desktop CPUs).

Only AMD is yet to figure it how to improve on that and finally put Intel and nvidia to their knees.

Looking hopeful and optimistic to 2015 and 2016 for AMD.


----------



## 64K (Sep 18, 2014)

I ran across this while looking at some pics of GTX 980s. I noticed the dual 8 pin power connectors so I followed the source and read about it. It will also have an updated Titan cooler with a TDP of 275 watts. This card may end up being able to do some crazy high clocks on air. 

http://wccftech.com/colorful-unveil...rce-gtx-980-graphics-card-triple-fan-cooling/


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## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2014)

Ferrum Master said:


> first post?



Gotta start somewhere amirite?


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 18, 2014)

From the review http://wccftech.com/nvidia-maxwell-...0-15-faster-r9-290x-gtx-970-10-faster-r9-290/

I see that GTX 970 is on par with R9 290X.

AMD is in a deep trouble and need to urgently slash the price from $459 to $349 max.


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 18, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Only AMD is yet to figure it how to improve on that and finally put Intel and nvidia to their knees.





Sony Xperia S said:


> AMD is in a deep trouble and need to urgently slash the price from $459 to $349 max.



Well, that changed fast.

BTW: That scenario of cost cutting will put AMD closer to their minimum cash reserve requirement ($600 million) to stay solvent since the price cut you envisage will need a price adjustment down the product stack - and of course the graphics business is likely the only one that turns a significant profit for the company.


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## Sony Xperia S (Sep 18, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> Well, that changed fast



Very "funny".  I am yet to figure it out where and how exactly you see that both quotes contradict each other. 

Perhaps in your hating fantasy?


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2014)

Well, let's see what GTX 970 will be priced at first...

No doubt NV will market these chips as the new high end for a while, especially since those benches equal the current high end. I'm quite sure they'll put a 290x +10/20 dollar price tag on them. They can sell these for more as total cost of ownership will be somewhat lower due to power consumption.


----------



## HumanSmoke (Sep 18, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Very "funny".  I am yet to figure it out where and how exactly you see that both quotes contradict each other.


Um, maybe because you haven't figured out that the second statement calls for a course of action that will directly impact it's ability to attain the first.

AMD has just under $950m in cash and securities. It needs to maintain a $1 billion dollar level to sustain itself (R&D). Every dollar under that figure DIRECTLY removes AMD's ability to develop product. At $600m AMD will cease to be viable (their estimate not mine). The GPU division made $82 million income last quarter while the processor division made $9 million.



Sony Xperia S said:


> Perhaps in your hating fantasy?


No, simple mathematics and the ability to parse a financial statement. Try it some time, there's a wealth of information you might learn from.


Vayra86 said:


> Well, let's see what GTX 970 will be priced at first...
> No doubt NV will market these chips as the new high end for a while, especially since those benches equal the current high end. I'm quite sure they'll put a 290x +10/20 dollar price tag on them. They can sell these for more as total cost of ownership will be somewhat lower due to power consumption.


Very true. Driving AMD into oblivion is something that Intel (and Nvidia) could have achieved some time ago, but that brings more problems than it solves - monopoly and anti-trust issues, and a potential AMD buyer that has the will and financial muscle to trouble the other two (Samsung for instance who are looking to get into the GPU business). Intel's size and resources are pretty well known, but Nvidia also has in excess of $4 billion in cash/securities reserves and carries NO debt (AMD's debt burden is increasing and costs around $200m in interest alone annually)- it has the ability to prosecute a price war much more effectively than does AMD - it also has a larger market and an elevated brand awareness than the Sunnyvale company.

All that would achieve is to drive AMD into the arms(!) of a company better suited financially, and decrease Nvidia's financial base. Hardly an advantageous situation.
It's a pity the  "big picture" isn't as alluring as swinging from unfounded optimism to outright pessimism for some people.


----------



## Sony Xperia S (Sep 18, 2014)

HumanSmoke said:


> ...



I understand you completely. I see the financial report and it is indeed very unlikely that AMD will survive very long these pressures, they have 2.2 B dollar debt.

Guess that ATi purchase did more harm than expected benefits.

But... I still believe that a 'miracle' can happen and with small budget for R&D and projects, they can achieve a lot!



Vayra86 said:


> Well, let's see what GTX 970 will be priced at first



GTX 970 is expected around $329. See the link if you will and wish.


----------



## HumanSmoke (Sep 18, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> But... I still believe that a 'miracle' can happen and with small budget for R&D and projects, they can achieve a lot!


Well you know what Nietzsche said about hope
_"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils, because it prolongs the torments of man"
_
AMD aren't going anywhere. By the same token, I doubt that they will become a significant player (nor will Nvidia for that matter IMO) - too much competition from companies with significantly more resources, and a more determined and ruthless approach.
AMD is already swimming in red ink, so I doubt Nvidia would initiate a price war just to make the swimming pool a bit larger and cut it's own revenue into the bargain.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 18, 2014)

Sony Xperia S said:


> I understand you completely. I see the financial report and it is indeed very unlikely that AMD will survive very long these pressures, they have 2.2 B dollar debt.
> 
> Guess that ATi purchase did more harm than expected benefits.
> 
> ...



The unfortunate reality is that most miracles are bad for AMD, or they just don't manage to really cash out on them. Look at Mantle... Nobody will tell you to take an R9 so 'you have Mantle'.


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## GhostRyder (Sep 18, 2014)

Vayra86 said:


> The unfortunate reality is that most miracles are bad for AMD, or they just don't manage to really cash out on them. Look at Mantle... Nobody will tell you to take an R9 so 'you have Mantle'.


I disagree on that since games are starting to show up more and more with Mantle support recently (GTA V is a big name).  But yea most people do not buy a GPU based on gameworks, mantle, physx, or what not but the tech itself is seeing a great adoption rate.


Sony Xperia S said:


> Guess that ATi purchase did more harm than expected benefits.
> 
> But... I still believe that a 'miracle' can happen and with small budget for R&D and projects, they can achieve a lot!


Well the point of the purchase has started to get more and more ground as APU's become more pronounced and the mobile market continues to shoot up.  The biggest problem has just been the gambles they have taken with multi-core being king over single threaded and the delay if pushing HSA now.  Future can only tell if they push it to the right people what will happen in the future.

Back to the actual subject, it seems that depending on the real price the 970 could be the king if all deals on GPUs replacing the R9 290 unless price cuts ensue.  I wish more information about the 980 or benchmarks would surface because I find it hard to believe based on its specs it's going to be where it sits in the leaks.  Going to be an interesting few weeks...


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## HumanSmoke (Sep 18, 2014)

Maxwell launch slide deck courtesy of Videocardz, and some very interesting advances away from the whole f.p.s. and power use debate


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