# January 9 Launch Date for AMD Radeon HD 7900



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

Ladies and Gentlemen with graphics card upgrade plans, circle the date January 09, 2012, for this is going to be the day AMD will launch its next generation high-performance graphics cards in the Radeon HD 7900 series, according to reliable market sources DonanimHaber spoke with. On the 9th, AMD is expected to unveil at least two new SKUs in the HD 7900 series, most likely, HD 7970 and HD 7950. These will be based on the new 28 nm "Tahiti" silicon that will use completely redesigned number-crunching machinery, and a very wide memory bus.





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


----------



## Wrigleyvillain (Dec 12, 2011)

Happy New Year!


----------



## treboRR (Dec 12, 2011)

ohhh yeah! nothing else to say!


----------



## Casecutter (Dec 12, 2011)

Wham bam... Thank you...


----------



## BrooksyX (Dec 12, 2011)

Better start saving my cash for that 7950


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

My "money" is on $399 for HD 7950, $499 for HD 7970. That said, I have money for neither.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Let's Google translate the note line with "2012" in it, heh.

Original

"telekonferans sırasında yapılıcak acıklamalar 9 ocak 2012'ye kadar NDA altındadır"

Translated

"until 9 January 2012, during a teleconference yapılıcak description under NDA"

So what do we comprehend? It says what will be unveiled is under NDA until January. Meaning we don't know what exactly they'll unveil. 

Yet an another rumor from that site. So...


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Let's Google translate the note line with "2012" in it, heh.
> 
> Original
> 
> ...



That's not how I get it. The author of those articles personally translates (≠ Google Translate) the key points of his article to simple English and sends it to me by email. In today's mail, all that's relevant to today's news post is there.

You suffer a case of _"I don't always rubbish news as rumor, but when I do, it's always from sources who don't publish in English master-language."_


----------



## trickson (Dec 12, 2011)

AMD is sure working hard on there video cards . Not so much on the CPU's . I want 2 of them !


----------



## Lionheart (Dec 12, 2011)

Sweet, Ima get more moneyz ^_^


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

btarunr said:


> That's not how I get it. The author of those articles personally translates (≠ Google Translate) the key points of his article to simple English and sends it to me by email. In today's mail, all that's relevant to today's news post is there.
> 
> You suffer a case of _"I don't always rubbish news as rumor, but when I do, it's always from sources who don't publish in English master-language."_



All the author of DomainHamber  does is to make up crap. That site is a joke. Why would they, from Silicon Valley, CA, send their most important info to some junk site from a 3rd World country? They never get any info. They just stir it up.


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> All the author of DomainHamber  does is to make up crap. That site is a joke. Why would they, from Silicon Valley, CA, they their most important news to some junk site from a 3rd World country? They never get any intel. They just stir it up.



You are unqualified for a discussion on the credibility of DonanimHaber, let alone credibility of sources from outside "Silicon Valley". You don't know poo about how the industry and world markets are structured. So I won't waste time with you.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

btarunr said:


> You are unqualified for a discussion on the credibility of DonanimHaber, let alone credibility of sources from outside "Silicon Valley". You don't know poo about how the industry and world markets are structured. So I won't waste time with you.



Oh great, insulting down are we? You aren't going to make yourself right by saying "I won't waste time with you". DonanimHaber is a nonsense site. Period. That's it. Take it or leave it.


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Oh great, insulting down are we? You aren't going to make yourself right by saying "I won't waste time with you". DonanimHaber is a nonsense site. Period. That's it. Take it or leave it.



Yes, at least insofar as where you were going with DonanimHaber is concered, you are one of those who proclaim: "My ignorance is as worthy as your intellect". Therefore, you don't deserve a discussion on DonanimHaber's credibility. Rather it's the otherway round, DonanimHaber doesn't need your stamp of approval.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Oh great, insulting down are we? You aren't going to make yourself right by saying "I won't waste time with you". DonanimHaber is a nonsense site. Period. That's it. Take it or leave it.



That's bull.  Donanimhaber is more often than not well within the mark when it comes to releasing tech info early.  I always wondered how they managed it.


----------



## Zubasa (Dec 12, 2011)

trickson said:


> AMD is sure working hard on there video cards . Not so much on the CPU's . I want 2 of them !


Well we don't even kmnow if the engineers are "allowed to work hard" on what becomes bulldozer.
On the GPU side of things, I don't see any reason they wouldn't do well given how much they have came back in the past few years.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

the54thvoid said:


> That's bull.  Donanimhaber is more often than not well within the mark when it comes to releasing tech info early.  I always wondered how they managed it.



They don't. They make it up.



btarunr said:


> Yes, at least insofar as where you were going with DonanimHaber is concered, you are one of those who proclaim: "My ignorance is as worthy as your intellect". Therefore, you don't deserve a discussion on that.



You first insulted me by saying I don't know shit. And know you're calling me dufus and ignorant? Way to go buddy. Way to go. I'm pretty damn sure you know that site has no inside sources. They're making it all up on their own. They always did. But you aren't going to come up and admit you're wrong. You aren't in a position to do that, are you?


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> They don't. They make it up.



The beauty of this discussion is that on the date specified if any info comes out regarding the NDA and/or the release of the new cards, 79xx series, we will see who is right and who is wrong.

If there is a release of info then (an NDA lifting with reference to 79xx cards) then you get to to be wrong.  If there is no such info, you get to be right about Donanimhaber.

Life is easy when you can wait.


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> You first insulted me by saying I don't know shit.



I said it before, I'll say it again, and the more you prolong this talk, the more you reinforce my observations.

You don't know poo about how the industry and markets is structured. If I didn't sound intuitive enough the first time around, I meant you don't know poo about how the IT industry and world IT markets are structured, it wasn't a generalized "you don't know poo about anything" remark, hence I wouldn't call that an insult. You're still stuck in the 1960s~80s when everything was designed and made in the Silicon Valley, and most of it was sold in the US. 

Today, manufacturing is done across continents, the industry is everywhere and markets around the world have access to early information, equally credible, and around the same time. In other words, a Turkish website citing its sources is no less credible than California-based website doing the same thing.

Back to topic.


----------



## Fourstaff (Dec 12, 2011)

I am going to take a look, probably give it my stamp of approval (judging by AMD's pricing track record), recommend it to everyone who is going to buy a new system, and not bothered about it myself as usual 

I wonder whether they are aiming for "performance" or "power consumption" improvement, but my money is on neither, since that this is "new arch"


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, this coincides with my own estimated ETA for these cards. If true, good job, AMD!!

I had hoped for a release this month, but didn't expect card until January, with the dual GPU card in March/April.

That makes it jsut over a year since the launch of the 69xx-series GPUs. New designs every year is almost too fast!


----------



## n-ster (Dec 12, 2011)

Wow so early, so great! Will this be 99% sure a PCI-E 3.0 GPU or not?

I'm debating between getting the 7950 and waiting for the 7850/70 and crossfire them. If XDR2 actually comes out for the 7900, I'll probably try the 7900 series out of curiosity


----------



## CDdude55 (Dec 12, 2011)

Very nice!, i know i won't have the cash to get one but then again i already have a 6970 which is more then sufficient for today's games.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 12, 2011)

CDdude55 said:


> Very nice!, i know i won't have the cash to get one but then again i already have a 6970 which is more then sufficient for today's games.



_Sufficient_ is never enough!!!


----------



## Steevo (Dec 12, 2011)

I still believe AMD/ATI might have a saviour for their Bulldozer here, if it can offload programs to the GPU and contingious memory space and execute them at that speed on Windows 8 by writing the drivers and software needed.......damn.



however this is still AMD/ATI we are talking about, so expect meh.


----------



## RejZoR (Dec 12, 2011)

I'll have to wait for some tests this time if the new architecture is really any good for games. Data crunching is fine as it is as far as i'm concerned.


----------



## TRWOV (Dec 12, 2011)

This is earlier than expected.


----------



## alexsubri (Dec 12, 2011)

I will be picking up two of these bad boys in February  ..My 5850 Crossfire are still a powerhouse, but its time has come


----------



## hhumas (Dec 12, 2011)

great news


----------



## neko77025 (Dec 12, 2011)

Hmm .. I just ask for A RMA on my MSI 6970 Lighthing. ... Kind of wish I would of waited a month .. might of lucked out and got A 7970.


But on the other hand .. 6970s will drop in price so 2 more would be nice...


----------



## General Lee (Dec 12, 2011)

Donanimhaber is a rumor shotgun, it's bound to hit something right. I've seen too many benches from them that weren't accurate to believe all they say though, I think some of those might actually be purposefully leaked by AMD. 

In any case release around CES seems likely. It looks like AMD already handed out the test cards, which is a little surprising. Perhaps they're keeping the drivers until closer to release.

Just sold my second 6950. I'll make do with one until I can get my hands on one of these babys!


----------



## twicksisted (Dec 12, 2011)

i think my GTX580 will serve me for quite some time still... theres no games i cant max so no need for another gpu upgrade just yet


----------



## NinkobEi (Dec 12, 2011)

so this is how 2012 apocalypse happens. AMD releases a single gpu so powerful that it simulates the entire universe causing several wormholes to be created that swallow our galaxy super cluster. yeah that makes sense now.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Ninkobwi said:


> so this is how 2012 apocalypse happens. AMD releases a single gpu so powerful that it simulates the entire universe causing several wormholes to be created that swallow our galaxy super cluster. yeah that makes sense now.



Yeah, have you looked at the leaked shot? Volterra Digital PWM, their best quality part (which nVidia lacks) is gone. They were using it since HD 2900, and now it's Analog with two inductors off. Like a non-ref 6970 rather than a reference. Doesn't seem "super duper mega awesome" to me.


----------



## NinkobEi (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Yeah, have you looked at the leaked shot? Volterra Digital PWM, their best quality part (which nVidia lacks) is gone. They were using it since HD 2900, and now it's Analog with two inductors off. Like a non-ref 6970 rather than a reference. Doesn't seem "super duper mega awesome" to me.



So AMD has advanced past the point of the HD2900 and you think the card is going to flop? I fail to see your logic there ;D


----------



## erocker (Dec 12, 2011)

Ninkobwi said:


> So AMD has advanced past the point of the HD2900 and you think the card is going to flop? I fail to see your logic there ;D



I'm pretty sure he's just saying that AMD cheaped out on parts which is apparent by the pictures. Then again this could be the 7950 card and we haven't seen the retail 7970 yet. I'm just waiting to see results first.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Ninkobwi said:


> So AMD has advanced past the point of the HD2900 and you think the card is going to flop? I fail to see your logic there ;D



No, they went from the best Volterra 8-phase Digital PWM solution to a cheap Analog one. The one they had before gave accurate reading and adjusting of voltage on it's own along with fast power phase shifting. This one they have now is only better than the exploding VRM of nVidia.


----------



## Casecutter (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Yeah, have you looked at the leaked shot? Volterra Digital PWM, their best quality part (which nVidia lacks) is gone. They were using it since HD 2900, and now it's Analog with two inductors off. Like a non-ref 6970 rather than a reference. Doesn't seem "super duper mega awesome" to me.


 Good observation there and if true what does that mean for power requirements and stability? Is the new architecture able to work with a less stringent power envelope?  I mean I can't see them dropping back on a sample or reference design unless they know they can maintain with analog and inductors?


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Casecutter said:


> Good observation there and if true what does that mean for power requirements and stability? Is the new architecture able to work with a less stringent power envelope?  I mean I can't see them dropping back on a sample or reference design unless they know they can maintain with analog and inductors?



Well actually, Digital PWM creates more heat and is more expensive to make. You can do the same with Analog though it may not have an as high OC potential (i.e 570/590). nVidia uses Analog for that reason while AMD was going with Digital since their cards are cooler to boot. IDK what it might exactly mean about the GPU itself other than the fact that they cheaped out.


----------



## NinkobEi (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Well actually, Digital PWM creates more heat and is more expensive to make. You can do the same with Analog though it may not have an as high OC potential (i.e 570/590). nVidia uses Analog for that reason while AMD was going with Digital since their cards are cooler to boot. IDK what it might exactly mean about the GPU other than the fact that they "cheaped out".



Are there such things as high quality analog PWM that allow for more OC potential? Or is there physical limit to how good an analog controller can be? If AMD did use it to save money then maybe that is how they will afford to undercut all of nVidia's cards and consumers get less expensive products.

Basically, do you know if this will effect the card much, or is it just like having a top-of-the-line stereo system inside a Nascar? Not really needed but nice to have.


----------



## HumanSmoke (Dec 12, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> Well, this coincides with my own estimated ETA for these cards. If true, good job, AMD!!
> I had hoped for a release this month, but didn't expect card until January, with the dual GPU card in March/April.


Yes, seems AMD are on the ball...at least with graphics.
A couple of points:
1.Launch is good. Retail availability is better. 
2.New µarch likely means a greater emphasis on getting the drivers right. Having a Ferrari in the garage means squat if the throttle linkage is broken.
2a. With a new µarch, I suspect the driver team(s) will be concentrating their efforts on GCN based cards. Not a good sign with the amount of game related bugs still prevalent with VLIW4/5 based cards. AMD seem to have trouble optimizing for one µarch, and now they're doubling the fun. Does this mean that AMD are now consigning HD4000/5000 to legacy driver status?


cadaveca said:


> New designs every year is almost too fast!


Yes, I too was an uber-enthusiast...until I took an arrow to the knee


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Ninkobwi said:


> Are there such things as high quality analog PWM that allow for more OC potential? Or is there physical limit to how good an analog controller can be? If AMD did use it to save money then maybe that is how they will afford to undercut all of nVidia's cards and consumers get less expensive products.
> 
> Basically, do you know if this will effect the card much, or is it just like having a top-of-the-line stereo system inside a Nascar? Not really needed but nice to have.



Yeah, there're many strong Analog solutions like the ones in MSI's non-ref cards. But this one looks no different than the phases they used in the second revision 6950/70. Cheap ones to be precise. We can't be sure how it'd affect the board before it's released. It probably works well, but might as well be limited like 570's. Volterra solutions are always more accurate at power delivery (i.e reference over non-ref).


----------



## DarkOCean (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Yeah, there're many strong Analog solutions like the ones in MSI's non-ref cards. But this one looks no different than the phases they used in the second revision 6950/70. Cheap ones to be precise. We can't be sure how it'd affect the board before it's released. It probably works well, but might as well be limited like 570's. Volterra solutions are always more accurate at power delivery (i.e reference over non-ref).



Why they look cheap? Ti vrms looks just fine by be better than whatever invidia is using on their gtx 570 and all their cards inb general.
For god sake 6870 and gtx despite ythe huge power consumption between them both are using 4 gpu phases ...so tell me ho is cheaping out huh? both are to make more profits but at least i didn't heard of any recent cards from amd blowing out like gtx 570 or especially 590 do.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

DarkOCean said:


> Why they look cheap? Ti vrms looks just fine by be better than whatever invidia is using on their gtx 570 and all their cards inb general.
> For god sake 6870 and gtx despite ythe huge power consumption between them both are using 4 gpu phases ...so tell me ho is cheaping out huh? both are to make more profits but at least i didn't heard of any recent cards from amd blowing out like gtx 570 or especially 590 do.



Not sure where the Ti or the 6870 came in discussion. lol. I was on about the high end (7900/6900).


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 12, 2011)

HumanSmoke said:


> Yes, seems AMD are on the ball...at least with graphics.
> A couple of points:
> 1.Launch is good. Retail availability is better.



Yeah, time will tell how much of a paper launch this will be. It's quite normal for me to ahve to wait about 3 months before being able to buy cards locally. It seems Bioware is good at snapping up new hardware locally.



> 2.New µarch likely means a greater emphasis on getting the drivers right. Having a Ferrari in the garage means squat if the throttle linkage is broken.
> 2a. With a new µarch, I suspect the driver team(s) will be concentrating their efforts on GCN based cards. Not a good sign with the amount of game related bugs still prevalent with VLIW4/5 based cards. AMD seem to have trouble optimizing for one µarch, and now they're doubling the fun. Does this mean that AMD are now consigning HD4000/5000 to legacy driver status?



I have no idea how to comment on this. What I hope to see if AMD commit a team of programmers to each core design, GCN and VLIW, respectively. It seems this would be the best way to do things, but then they are very reliant on having the right people in the right places, if they have them at all.

I'm not too sure what I'm gonna do. If htese cards are fast enough to do Eyefinity decently, I'm gonna buy a couple, for sure. If not, my 6950's do a decent job at single monitor, so I ahve no interest in buying new cards. I'd rather buy someone's used cards and get 2 more 6950's before buying into a new gen. $ cards are jsut so much mroe visually impressive in how htey fill a case, anyway.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

For comparison, here are 3 pics. This is the 7900.







This one's an original, reference 6970.






And this is a second revision, cheaped out 6970.


----------



## faramir (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> All the author of DomainHamber  does is to make up crap. That site is a joke. Why would they, from Silicon Valley, CA, send their most important info to some junk site from a 3rd World country? They never get any info. They just stir it up.



You, my dear, are an idiot.

If you took few minutes to check out their rumor posts from the past you would surely notice that they have been correct on pretty much everything. The only exception to this are the inferences people make from those announcements. People like you.


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

I've used Volterra PWM-powered reference AMD boards, and cheapo Sapphire/HIS boards that use the same GPU but cheaper UPI/CHIL/OnSemi + DPAK circuits. I could never tell any quality difference. I guess the PWM-powered boards only have an edge with extreme cooling...that is if AMD doesn't skew you over with clock speed limits.


----------



## Casecutter (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> IDK what it might exactly mean about the GPU itself other than the fact that they cheaped out.


Given the price they have for this, including TSMC 28Nm price increase and yields... while not absolutely needing it now becuase the 28Nm and GCN silicon doesn't demand for it.  They made concessions. 

While now (also) they don't intend for OC'n them and will be leaving up to AIB's to do what Nvidia has been doing, letting AIB's build the OC units with the power section to achieve their halo products, and more difference from how they did it in the past. 

If I understood right, I read several month back that AMD would permit AIB's more leeway right from the initial release to not release basically stickered reference designs. Heck most often the reason to grab a newly release AMD/ATI reference card was that those most often provide the best OC’n.  Going forward it may be more like Nvidia AIB's some generic release cards, and a full stable of über units almost from day one.


----------



## Jeffredo (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, my game of the moment (Skyrim) is kicking the crap out of my CPU more than my GPU so I don't really care (which I did prior to Skyrim's launch).  Wait for Kepler...


----------



## n-ster (Dec 12, 2011)

Not that many people OC GPUs compared to CPUs at least. I OC my GPU only slightly


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

faramir said:


> You, my dear, are an idiot.
> 
> If you took few minutes to check out their rumor posts from the past you would surely notice that they have been correct on pretty much everything. The only exception to this are the inferences people make from those announcements. People like you.



No, I'm not. However you are if you trust that site.

Their most recent rumor was Bulldozer. They claimed to have tested the chip, and put it in pace with a 980x. When in reality, most people knew it was going to blow. Then it did.



btarunr said:


> I've used Volterra PWM-powered reference AMD boards, and cheapo Sapphire/HIS boards that use the same GPU but cheaper UPI/CHIL/OnSemi + DPAK circuits. I could never tell any quality difference. I guess the PWM-powered boards only have an edge with extreme cooling...that is if AMD doesn't skew you over with clock speed limits.



There's no accurate software monitoring or voltage adjustment on cheapo cards. And either way, I'd prefer to have solid Volterra's powering my card. For example, you can power your system with both a $100 or a $150 PSU. Both would do it well as long as they're under ATX specs. Though, I'd take the $150 one.


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> There's no accurate software monitoring or voltage adjustment on cheapo cards.



And you wouldn't need it either, unless you have extreme cooling at your disposal. That was my point. Most cheap UPI/OnSemi/CHIL controllers still give you 'some' voltage tuning headroom.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

btarunr said:


> And you wouldn't need it either, unless you have extreme cooling at your disposal. That was my point. Most cheap UPI/OnSemi/CHIL controllers still give you 'some' voltage tuning headroom.



Well, I personally want to have it all in one. You don't get accurate software voltage sensors with those. Then again I'd like to make sure my card is powered cleanly and well. Not with some cheap regulators that can't suppress ripple as good.


----------



## btarunr (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Well, I personally want to have it all in one. You don't get accurate software voltage sensors with those. Then again I'd like to make sure my card is powered cleanly and well. Not with some cheap regulators that can't suppress ripple as good.



Besides, Volterra+CPL boards were, historically, always produced in limited quantities, so those cost-effective board designs that allow greater price flexibility step in just a couple of months later. Those high-grade boards were more of PR vehicles. Only the early adopters got the pie.

Looks like a 'posh' reference board with Volterra+CPL PWM at first glance, doesn't it?






Look closely:




^That's a common cost-effective VRM. 

The Volterra+CPL design should look like this from the back of the PCB:





Again, my point is, the whole discussion about missing digital PWM on those Tahiti boards is moot. Very few actually end up getting those cards, AMD itself gives out cheapo PCBs once the launched products "settle down", as is the case with the example above. You'll find the same cheap PCB in use with many other AIBs.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Yeah. Ripple is a part killer. People that ran their machines off old units that're on the higher side of it need good VRM. Good VRM = better ripple surpression. You either upgrade your PSU or VRM to reduce it, or else it might be an another point of failure. Both PSU and cards die from ripple.


----------



## erocker (Dec 12, 2011)

Looks like the card pictured has more phases than the GTX 570 which I believe used a 4 phase design. Really though, I don't care as long as the performance is there out of the box. Has anyone measured the hole spacing for the cooler to see if it matches up with any previous cards?


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Dec 12, 2011)

I am looking forward to seeing how these perform. They are part of my current upgrade plan, but they can be taken off if we get anything resembling the other half of AMD's recent product launches. If these launch dates are true, this will give them almost a full year before Nvidia has anything to answer to it. Hopefully they can still pull off a decent GPU.


----------



## v12dock (Dec 12, 2011)

W1zzard is currently viewing this thread and lol'ing at our speculations


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

v12dock said:


> W1zzard is currently viewing this thread and lol'ing at our speculations



lol I doubt it. Has the card even went to full production yet?


----------



## DarkOCean (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Not sure where the Ti or the 6870 came in discussion. lol. I was on about the high end (7900/6900).



Ti=texas instruments


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

DarkOCean said:


> Ti=texas instruments



Ok, you said 4 phase. The amount of phases don't equal to the amount of power they deliver. Put five 50W phases against ten 25W phases. See? The thing here is, this design isn't as quality as the high current inductors MSI uses, let alone a Volterra. See the pics I compared to on the bottom of the 2nd page.


----------



## dj-electric (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> lol I doubt it. Has the card even went to full production yet?



1 - yes, probably. It doesnt take 1 night to produce thousands of graphics cards from nada
2 - Since when reviewers need a shelf prodect, they get an ES
3 - Yes, W1zz probably look at this thread with a trollface smile


----------



## H82LUZ73 (Dec 12, 2011)

btarunr said:


> Besides, Volterra+CPL boards were, historically, always produced in limited quantities, so those cost-effective board designs that allow greater price flexibility step in just a couple of months later. Those high-grade boards were more of PR vehicles. Only the early adopters got the pie.
> 
> Looks like a 'posh' reference board with Volterra+CPL PWM at first glance, doesn't it?
> http://img.techpowerup.org/111212/bta8746kjhdc.jpg
> ...



Is Volterra+CPL PWM made in Taiwan? If it is it could have been flooded like the Wd factory or they come from the northern part of Japan were the Nuclear plant has been leaking water out....either way... Like Erocker and Bta have said... If the performance is there
 yep you bet I will be getting one,When was the last card from ATI/AMD with  memory bust over 256bit....2900xt 512bit with the robust fire bit right.348 bit is new for them And i hope they take both crowns from the Green camp.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Dj-ElectriC said:


> 1 - yes, probably. It doesnt take 1 night to produce thousands of graphics cards from nada
> 2 - Since when reviewers need a shelf prodect, they get an ES
> 3 - Yes, W1zz probably look at this thread with a trollface smile



And can you tell me how you know about that? There's zero info out there stating such thing. The card may as well not even be designed properly yet. It's not that easy to build a GPU in months time.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 12, 2011)

his point is that it IS that easy to slap a gpu on a board and ES gpu are most deff tapped out


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> his point is that it IS that easy to slap a gpu on a board and ES gpu are most deff tapped out



No, it's not. You're making it sound like as easy as cooking beef. You don't just "slap a GPU on a board". ES samples are fully functional GPU's, just like how ATi/AMD has been doing it before. I have an ES HD 2900 dated at March of 07. It's the same as any other 2900 technically. You have to design an entire GPU architecture, which we still aren't sure if they've done yet.


----------



## erocker (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> You have to design an entire GPU, which we still aren't sure if they've done it yet.



What are those pictured cards then?  .. if that's what you are meaning.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

erocker said:


> What are those pictured cards then?  .. if that's what you are meaning.



It's a half-cut picture. The core of the GPU looks some sort of toy. I'm not even sure the card in that single photo is finished yet.


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> It's a half-cut picture. The core of the GPU looks some sort of toy. I'm not even sure that single shot is finished yet.



No offense, dude, but just because you are skeptical doesn't mean everyone else has to be as well.


----------



## Wile E (Dec 12, 2011)

Analog vs digital pwm is 100% meaningless. All that matters is what the regulatory circuits are capable of, not how they get there.


----------



## erocker (Dec 12, 2011)

Meh, nothing means a thing until the company that produces these cards actually provide some information. Arguing about speculation, rumors, etc. has to be one of the biggest wastes of time I can think of. I'm just going to say these cards exist and I've seen enough proof to think this way.


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 12, 2011)

Sooo... Unveil means they will just remove the NDA or at least some of it, but doesn't mean the cards will actually be available on the market, correct?



erocker said:


> Looks like the card pictured has more phases than the GTX 570 which I believe used a 4 phase design. Really though, I don't care as long as the performance is there out of the box. Has anyone measured the hole spacing for the cooler to see if it matches up with any previous cards?



Well accoring to him the VRM design on the GTX570 is rubbish, can't handle any overvolting(pure BS), and the same 4 phase design on the GTX470 was better and the GTX470 overclocked better too...

There is no use arguing with him, he acts like he knows what he is talking about, but in the end has no clue.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 12, 2011)

erocker said:


> Meh, nothing means a thing until the company that produces these cards actually provide some information. Arguing about speculation, rumors, etc. has to be one of the biggest wastes of time I can think of. I'm just going to say these cards exist and I've seen enough proof to think this way.



and to get giddy with anticipation no less

vregs dont overly matter to 99% of their users so long as they work


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

Wile E said:


> Analog vs digital pwm is 100% meaningless. All that matters is what the regulatory circuits are capable of, not how they get there.



Digital solutions (Volterra) are most the time superior to Analog, but this specific Analog design (used on non-ref Cayman GPU's) is nowhere as quality as a Volterra Digital PWM.


----------



## erocker (Dec 12, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Digital solutions (Volterra) are most the time superior to Analog, but this specific Analog design (used on non-ref Cayman GPU's) is nowhere as quality as a Volterra Digital PWM.



Solid gold door handles on my Honda Civic would be awesome, but the plastic handles work fine.


----------



## the54thvoid (Dec 12, 2011)

To detract from the current back and forth of this is pish, this is not pish - what I'm interested in is how long it will take NV to release PR given the rumours that they are well off their production of high end Kepler.
Normally when one company is behind, it starts to release hype to detract from the opposing companies impending release.
We'll know an AMD release is imminent if the gargantuan NV PR behemoth starts rolling.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

erocker said:


> Solid gold door handles on my Honda Civic would be awesome, but the plastic handles work fine.



Why has it taken so long for AMD to move away from Volterra's then? They've thrown money on those on 4870's, 5870's... was it absolutely needed? No. But they "downgraded" quality with that cheap 6950 VRM. You can easily notice that in the 7900 pic.


----------



## erocker (Dec 12, 2011)

You got me. I don't own a Civic.

If it works, I'm fine with it in every way. If it turns into something that likes to start on fire due to the cheaper components, well.. I don't like my video cards on fire.


----------



## Disruptor4 (Dec 12, 2011)

Oh man. I'm planning to upgrade my whole system in March.
7970, ivy bridge, PERFECT!


----------



## oli_ramsay (Dec 12, 2011)

Disruptor4 said:


> Oh man. I'm planning to upgrade my whole system in March.
> 7970, ivy bridge, PERFECT!



Me too! I can't wait!


----------



## 20mmrain (Dec 12, 2011)

Happy Birthday to Me literally! (Jan 9th) ---- No seriously really My b-day what a good present.... Hey girlfriend come here and look what you can get me!! (Besides Sex)


----------



## John Doe (Dec 12, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Well accoring to him the VRM design on the GTX570 is rubbish, can't handle any overvolting(pure BS), and the same 4 phase design on the GTX470 was better and the GTX470 overclocked better too...
> 
> There is no use arguing with him, he acts like he knows what he is talking about, but in the end has no clue.



The reference 570 can handle overvolting however it might as well break off. And no, as I said before, the 470 doesn't have anything to do with the 570. The 570 is a 580 with 4 phases while the 470 has a different regulators with different potential, on a different PCB.

You're just some wannabe Internet tough guy with knowledge. I'd argue with you but at the end of the day it gets packaged in a bag of douche.


----------



## 20mmrain (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> The reference 570 can handle overvolting however it might as well break off. And no, as I said before, the 470 doesn't have anything to do with the 570. The 570 is a 580 with 4 phases while the 470 has a different regulators with different potential, on a different PCB.
> 
> You're just some wannabe Internet tough guy with knowledge. I'd argue with you but at the end of the day it gets packaged in a bag of douche.



No offense to you and the guy you are talking too but isn't this a thread about the HD7900 series and not the GTX 500 series? Plus if the guy is (Whom ever it is I didn't take time to check) giving you that much trouble just let him talk himself to death. Don't respond  Back on topic


----------



## erocker (Dec 13, 2011)

I was about to say the same.  This thread will NOT turn into a GTX 570 VRM issue thread.

My money is in the bank waiting... I want single GPU performance, this is it.


----------



## 20mmrain (Dec 13, 2011)

erocker said:


> I was about to say the same.
> 
> My money is in the bank waiting...



Mine too I am excited to return back to ATI! (I am sorry I know they are AMD now but they will always be ATI to me ) 

Well I should actually say all the money is not there yet but a couple more weeks of 13 hour days the money for those cards and Ivy bridge will be there for sure


----------



## mediasorcerer (Dec 13, 2011)

Im in, put me down for one 7970 please, this time reference too if possible.


----------



## Cold Storm (Dec 13, 2011)

Birthday present? if so.. I'll give out my paypal addy so you can send me some...


----------



## 20mmrain (Dec 13, 2011)

Cold Storm said:


> Birthday present? if so.. I'll give out my paypal addy so you can send me some...



A January Kid too??? If so... how about this I will buy you one if you buy me one! Fair? LOL


----------



## leonard_222003 (Dec 13, 2011)

Fine move from AMD , they stir up this news and build hype to drive away customers from Nvidia in the coming days when people will spend on gifts and ......
It's interesting why it isn't realeased now when they could make big sales , they could rush it a bit but no , in january when pockets are empty and people barelly recover from new year.


----------



## xenocide (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm waiting for benchmarks from both the 7xxx series and Nvidia's upcoming release.  I plan on getting the best single-card solution available at the time, and then keeping it for several years.


----------



## Super XP (Dec 13, 2011)

My internal ATI contact now working for AMD has already confirmed to me that there’s a strong possibility of a HD 7900 series launch for mid to late January 2012. In other words, they’ve been baking in the oven for several months now and AMD has enough to meet any possible demand. I’ve gotten this info on September 22, 2011 but was told not to say anything until after Christmas. AMD does not want to affect HD 6000 series Christmas sales by announcing the HD 7000 too soon. So much for the Top Secret 


20mmrain said:


> Happy Birthday to Me literally! (Jan 9th) ---- No seriously really My b-day what a good present.... Hey girlfriend come here and look what you can get me!! (Besides Sex)


No, you buy what you want, wrap it up and place your name in front of the TO: and your girlfriends name beside the LOVE: 

Then when your B-day comes around, you run down the stairs kicking and screaming all happy with the gift you wrapped for yourself and tell your girlfriend thank you thank you sweetheart, this is great, thanks for the gift, now can I open it


----------



## JATownes (Dec 13, 2011)

Super XP said:


> No, you buy what you want, wrap it up and place your name in front of the TO: and your girlfriends name beside the LOVE:
> 
> Then when your B-day comes around, you run down the stairs kicking and screaming all happy with the gift you wrapped for yourself and tell your girlfriend thank you thank you sweetheart, this is great, thanks for the gift, now can I open it



This man is an absolute genius!!!


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

What I have to say about the card itself:








John Doe said:


> The reference 570 can handle overvolting however it might as well break off. And no, as I said before, the 470 doesn't have anything to do with the 570. The 570 is a 580 with 4 phases while the 470 has a different regulators with different potential, on a different PCB.
> 
> You're just some wannabe Internet tough guy *with knowledge*. I'd argue with you but at the end of the day it gets packaged in a bag of douche.



I'll respect Erocker and not turn this into a GTX570/470 VRM argument.  So I'll respond to the highlighted part, as well as talking about the HD7900 VRM and your argument about it.

First, the highlight part.  My response: At least I've got knowledge, which is more than I can say for you.

Now the HD7900 VRM argument.  Your argument from the beginning is that the card lacks the Volterra Digital PWM, "their best part", and a part that nVidia is lacking.  Remember, _you_ were the one that made it clear that nVidia cards don't have it.  Ok, now that that is established, nVidia has been pumping out more powerful single GPU cards for years, and at the same time cards that suck down way more power!  So obviously a Volterra PWM isn't important when you have a well designed card.  /QED

You kind of killed your own argument before you finished your first post.


----------



## mtosev (Dec 13, 2011)

btarunr said:


> My "money" is on $399 for HD 7950, $499 for HD 7970. That said, I have money for neither.


just beg w1zzard to give you one after he's done reviewing it PROFIT!!!!!!!!


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Now the HD7900 VRM argument.  Your argument from the beginning is that the card lacks the Volterra Digital PWM, their best part, and a part that nVidia is lacking.  Remember, _you_ were the one that made it clear that nVidia cards don't have it.  Ok, now that that is established, nVidia has been pumping out more powerful single GPU cards for years, and at the same time cards that suck down way more power!  So obviously a Volterra PWM isn't important when you have a well designed card.  /QED
> 
> You kind of killed your own argument before you finished your first post.



No, I didn't. nVidia doesn't use Volterra's since they create more heat for more accurate, digital power delivery. Their GPU's are too high profile to use it. It'd add in extra heat on top of their already high TDP cards, that's why they don't use it. AMD on the other hand kept it on their 5800 cards. The cards that flew past a Ghz with the help of dynamic response of Volterra.

Now that's clearly not the only thing. They switched to much of the exact VRM they used in the second revision of 6970 (the one btarunr explained). The ones that look like original cards but aren't. Either way, this is a significant downgrade in card quality over the top end VRM they used for years.


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> No, I didn't. nVidia doesn't use Volterra's since they create more heat for more accurate, digital power delivery. Their GPU's are too high profile to use it. It'd add in extra heat on top of their already high TDP cards, that's why they don't use it. AMD on the other hand kept it on their 5800 cards. The cards that flew past a Ghz with the help of dynamic response of Volterra.
> 
> Now that's clearly not the only thing. They switched to much of the exact VRM they used in the second revision of 6970 (the one btarunr explained). The ones that look like original cards but aren't. Either way, this is a significant downgrade in card quality over the top end VRM they used for years.



And nVidia didn't need to use Volterras to achieve a higher performance card or to design a PWM that handles more current.  So Volterra does not make a card good, obviously.  It might help, but it certainly doesn't hurt to not have a Volterra.  Again, right when you essentially said "this was their best part an they removed it, look at this better card over here that didn't have it" you pretty much nailed the coffin of your argument shut.  

Also, the HD6970 non-reference boards that didn't use a Volterra design all hit 1GHz+, and all overclocked pretty much just as well as the reference design if not better.  So, again, obviously you don't need a Volterra to have a good high quality card.

Their GPUs have always been the best part of their cards, and what has made their cards great.  The Volterra PWM design wasn't necessary, and the non-reference cards proved that.


----------



## erocker (Dec 13, 2011)

The card pictured looks like it is probably using a CHiL voltage processor.


----------



## xenocide (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> nVidia doesn't use Volterra's since they create more heat for more accurate, digital power delivery. *Their GPU's are too high profile to use it.*



wat?


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> And nVidia didn't need to use Volterras to achieve a higher performance card or to design a PWM that handles more current.  So Volterra does not make a card good, obviously.  It might help, but it certainly doesn't hurt to not have a Volterra.  Again, right when you essentially said "this was their best part an they removed it, look at this better card over here that didn't have it" you pretty much nailed the coffin of your argument shut.



This is the issue. They have to make up for their lack of GPU power from somewhere else. Let it be price or power consumption. Replacing Volterra with cheap VRM would only make the card worse.



newtekie1 said:


> Also, the HD6970 non-reference boards that didn't use a Volterra design all hit 1GHz+, and all overclocked pretty much just as well as the reference design if not better.  So, again, obviously you don't need a Volterra to have a good high quality card.



This is wrong. The highest OC's on 6970 cards have been seen on reference solutions. Yes, Lightnings OC well though with reference you're guaranteed to get quality. Non-ref, even a good solution can be a crapshoot and not OC due lack of QC. I.E. Gigabyte's older Ultra Durable cards.



newtekie1 said:


> Their GPUs have always been the best part of their cards, and what has made their cards great.  The Volterra PWM design wasn't necessary, and the non-reference cards proved that.



Obviously that comes down on which specific GPU's you comparing.



xenocide said:


> wat?



They have too large TDP's that deny usage of Volterra (to keep thermals low).


----------



## DannibusX (Dec 13, 2011)

House or video cards?


----------



## bostonbuddy (Dec 13, 2011)

but will they be able to handle consul ports?


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

Super XP said:


> *My internal ATI contact now working for AMD has already confirmed to me that there’s a strong possibility of a HD 7900 series launch for mid to late January 2012*. In other words, they’ve been baking in the oven for several months now and AMD has enough to meet any possible demand. I’ve gotten this info on September 22, 2011 but was told not to say anything until after Christmas. AMD does not want to affect HD 6000 series Christmas sales by announcing the HD 7000 too soon. So much for the Top Secret



Yeah, and Boy George told me he's in love with you the other day.  I've had enough of your AMD nonsense. How many more posts, threads you have to post to praise AMD? Enough is enough.


----------



## 7mm (Dec 13, 2011)

*Just about time I've being told to upgrade from Radeon HD 4350 and I made up my mind with Radeon HD 6670 DDR5, now shouldn't I wait for a month for better upgrade!*


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> This is wrong. The highest OC's on 6970 cards have been seen on reference solutions. Yes, Lightnings OC well though with reference you're guaranteed to get quality. Non-ref, even a good solution can be a crapshoot and not OC due lack of QC. I.E. Gigabyte's older Ultra Durable cards.



Really?  Care to prove that with some examples of reference cards overclocked on the stock air cooling?


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Really?  Care to prove that with some examples of reference cards overclocked on the stock air cooling?



http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_6950_1_GB/25.html

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_6950_Vortex_II/30.html

If you need to ask, I wouldn't expect you to understand. With reference, you most the time get a good sample. Reference boards are all made by Sapphire (PCPartner), while non-ref's are unknown. That's why they tend to have better QC and mess up less.


----------



## pantherx12 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_6950_1_GB/25.html
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_6950_Vortex_II/30.html
> 
> If you need to ask, I wouldn't expect you to understand. With reference, you most the time get a good sample. Reference boards are all made by Sapphire (PCPartner), while non-ref's are unknown. That's why they tend to have better QC and mess up less.



That's a 2.15% difference which is probably more down to individual chip variation rather than anything else.

For example my first 6870 could over-clock to 1100mhz and do 1000mhz with no additional voltage.

My second 6870 can't go over 960mhz without jibbing out.

My cards were identical in every other way ( reference design by the way with the fancy voltage control and such  )


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> That's a 2.15% difference which is probably more down to individual chip variation rather than anything else.
> 
> For example my first 6870 could over-clock to 1100mhz and do 1000mhz with no additional voltage.
> 
> ...



That's not the point. With reference, you have a higher chance of getting a good sample.

VisionTek 900352 Radeon HD 6950 2GB 256-bit GDDR5 ...


----------



## pantherx12 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> That's not the point. With reference, you have a higher chance of getting a good sample.
> 
> VisionTek 900352 Radeon HD 6950 2GB 256-bit GDDR5 ...



I don't think there is a higher chance man, maybe you've just got lucky.

I see the same variation regardless of whether it's reference or not.

In fact some of the highest over clocks I've seen are on non reference cards.

How ever I know it's all down to luck, any over-clocking always is.


I don't just speak from my experience either, I speak from this forums entirely collective user-base XD


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> I don't think there is a higher chance man, maybe you've just got lucky.
> 
> I see the same variation regardless of whether it's reference or not.
> 
> ...



That's not what I meant. Companies go cost cutting when they go non-ref. So if you just buy some random non-ref board without research (like that one), chances are you'll get a cheaply made board with QC all over the place. With reference, you always get that solid, tested and proven design.


----------



## pantherx12 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> That's not what I meant. Companies go cost cutting when they go non-ref. So if you just buy some random non-ref board without research (like that one), chances are you'll get a cheaply made board with QC all over the place. With reference, you always get that solid, tested and proven design.



This is why I read reviews before buying things 

See now I get what your saying, but the way you were saying it was well not right 


Should of gone with that statement straight away, save yourself all the grief you got


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_6950_1_GB/25.html
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/HD_6950_Vortex_II/30.html
> 
> If you need to ask, I wouldn't expect you to understand. With reference, you most the time get a good sample. Reference boards are all made by Sapphire (PCPartner), while non-ref's are unknown. That's why they tend to have better QC and mess up less.





pantherx12 said:


> That's a 2.15% difference which is probably more down to individual chip variation rather than anything else.
> 
> For example my first 6870 could over-clock to 1100mhz and do 1000mhz with no additional voltage.
> 
> ...



Actually, the difference is probably due to the fact that the reference board is pushing 1.19v through the core by default and the PowerColor card is only using 1.15v by default.  But he probably was hoping we didn't notice that.

And when the PowerColor card was ran at ~1.2v(or 1.19v maybe, the graph is a little hard to read exact voltages) it hits 965MHz, so 35MHz more than the reference with the Volterra when using the same voltages.

Not a great example...  Keep trying there John Doe.


----------



## pantherx12 (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Actually, the difference is probably due to the fact that the reference board is pushing 1.19v through the core by default and the PowerColor card is only using 1.15v by default.  But he probably was hoping we didn't notice that.
> 
> And when the PowerColor card was ran at ~1.2v(or 1.19v maybe, the graph is a little hard to read exact voltages) it hits 965MHz, so 35MHz more than the reference with the Volterra when using the same voltages.
> 
> Not a great example...  Keep trying there John Doe.



Completely missed that, but then I've always ignored that graph


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Not a great example...  Keep trying there John Doe.



Great, you know actually it's like discussing with a brick wall when arguing with you. You do realize reference is the best with the Cayman GPU, right? It has the highest QC and the best power delivery. As long as temps are kept in check, reference with Volterra is a beast. Most non-ref solutions of Cayman are cheaper to make, inferior. Especially after the revision change, 2nd revision boards haven't been doing as good as the first 6950/70's did.


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> Completely missed that, but then I've always ignored that graph



Oh, one more thing.  Did you happen to wonder why he picked the 1GB review instead of the reference 2GB?  My guess is because the 2GB reference sample only managed 860Mhz...

Yep, those reference cards will definitely give you a great overclock.  Guaranteed!</sarcasm>



John Doe said:


> Great, you know actually it's like discussing with a brick wall when arguing with you. You do realize reference is the best with the Cayman GPU, right? It has the highest QC and the best power delivery. As long as temps are kept in check, reference with Volterra is a beast. Most non-ref solutions of Cayman are cheaper to make, inferior. Especially after the revision change, 2nd revision boards haven't been doing as good as the first 6950/70's did.



You keep saying that, but have yet to show any proof.  And the proof you tried to show just made you look worse.  As I said, keep trying.

Yeah, I can understand the brick wall thing, you just keep posting things and I just keep shooting them down for the BS they are...  I can understand that becoming frustrating.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Oh, one more thing.  Did you happen to wonder why he picked the 1GB review instead of the reference 2GB?  My guess is because the 2GB reference sample only managed 860Mhz...
> 
> Yep, those reference cards will definitely give you a great overclock.  Guaranteed!</sarcasm>



Yes, they will. I didn't give attention to those details at all. Good making up.



newtekie1 said:


> You keep saying that, but have yet to show any proof.  And the proof you tried to show just made you look worse.  As I said, keep trying.



The burden of proof is on you. It's your ignorance that doesn't know about how the revision change affected the boards. Do your research, ask Lord Jummy. He has reference boards. I don't own the cards in question so this is all I can say. What proof do you want me to show you? I had a bunch of non-ref boards with that red PCB made by Flextronics (same company), they didn't OC crap. Not even a few Mhz. Such thing would pretty much never happen with a reference board, because it's higher quality make with higher QC.


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Yes, they will. I didn't give attention to those details at all. Good making up.



And your reason for the 2GB sample clock like crap then?  If the reference boards are so much better, why only 860Mhz.  Note:  I know the answer, I'm just trying to figure out if mister know-it-all can figure it out.



John Doe said:


> The burden of proof is on you. It's your ignorance that doesn't know about how the revision change affected the boards. Do your research, ask Lord Jummy. He has reference boards. I don't own the cards in question so this is all I can say. What proof do you want me to show you? I had a bunch of non-ref boards with that red PCB made by Flextronics (same company), they didn't OC crap. Not even a few Mhz. Such thing would pretty much never happen with a reference board, because it's higher quality make with higher QC.



Not it isn't.  You made the initial claims, you have to prove them.  You have to prove that the Volterra PWM is important.  All you've done so far is make claims, and the small little amount of proof you tried to provide actually proved the opposite of your claim, that when a non-reference card without a Volterra is set to the same voltage it will clock higher than the reference with the Volterra.


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Not it isn't.  You made the initial claims, you have to prove them.  You have to prove that the Volterra PWM is important.  All you've done so far is make claims, and the small little amount of proof you tried to provide actually proved the opposite of your claim, that when a non-reference card without a Volterra is set to the same voltage it will clock higher than the reference with the Volterra.



I didn't say it's important. They took off what made the GPU fancy. It's now just an inferior GPU with inferior drivers. It has nothing left to make itself really distinguish from nVidia. Understand? And no, a non-ref card will NOT clock higher than a reference with these cards. It depends on your sample; the GPU you got.


----------



## DannibusX (Dec 13, 2011)

Oh, hey look.  7900's are releasing on Jan. 9!

C-c-c-c-combo Breaker!


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> I didn't say it's important. They took off what made the GPU fancy. It's now just an inferior GPU with inferior drivers. It has nothing left to make itself really distinguish from nVidia. Understand? And no, a non-ref card will NOT clock higher than a reference with these cards. It depends on your sample; the GPU you got.



What you posted seems to contradict that statement, doesn't it.  Seems the Volterra isn't important at all, you basically only got one thing right.  It depends on the sample, the Volterra doesn't improve your changes at all.


----------



## pantherx12 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> What proof do you want me to show you? I had a bunch of non-ref boards with that red PCB made by Flextronics (same company), they didn't OC crap. Not even a few Mhz. Such thing would pretty much never happen with a reference board, because it's higher quality make with higher QC.



Cmon man you buy a cheap board what do you expect?

It's like buying a £35 motherboard and expecting it to be as good as a £200 one.

If you get the non reference cards that are the same price or more expensive than a reference one you'll typically get decent over-clocking headroom unless your unlucky.

Anyway, think that's me done in this thread.

Way off topic 


Shall we make a new thread to discuss reference vs 3rd party designs?


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> What you posted seems to contradict that statement, doesn't it.  Seems the Volterra isn't important at all, you basically only got one thing right.  It depends on the sample, the Volterra doesn't improve your changes at all.



Yes, it does. It provides accurate software voltage monitoring. Right at point and very stable regulation. It shows it's benefits under more extreme cases, so as to what degree it helps depends on your case. There haven't been extensive testing on it to show how much it adds to the reliability/stability of GPU. Though, more advanced VRM designs get lower ripple, which equates to cleaner power.


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Yes, it does. It provides accurate software voltage monitoring.



guess which one is reference:


----------



## JustaTinkerer (Dec 13, 2011)

Well I was wanting to show you guys later but by a freak miracle mix up at the delivery centre I managed to get my hands on a 7900 series card.

First overclocking result are promising but I wish W1zz would fix GPU-z






http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44657&stc=1&d=1323750651


Wait until I get it under water though


----------



## John Doe (Dec 13, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> guess which one is reference:
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44656&stc=1&d=1323750640



You know you have to keep track of voltage for an amount of time, look at how much regulation changed percantage-wise, right? I can't "guess" which one is reference by a single screenshot. I've to extensively test and keep track of both. 

Can you guess how long an obstacle is by looking at it? You have to measure it. This is ironic.


----------



## trickson (Dec 13, 2011)

I wonder if AMD is giving up on CPU'S and focusing on Video cards . With the BD debacle and all kinda makes me wonder .


----------



## xenocide (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe--Your arguments are just silly.  You're basically saying on unrelated products you have occasionally gotten better OC results on reference boards, ergo, all reference boards are superior.  You then went on to give examples which proved your own argument wrong.  Will you please just stop, I'm sick of reading you getting your ass kicked post after post.



trickson said:


> I wonder if AMD is giving up on CPU'S and focusing on Video cards . With the BD debacle and all kinda makes me wonder .



That's the most asinine assumption on earth.  BD was a let down, but mostly because of AMD's misleading marketting.  The product itself is still functional, and in heavily threaded applications even good, it just wasn't nearly as good as everyone expected given the use of the FX brand name, and AMD's own internal slides.


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Dec 13, 2011)

xenocide said:


> John Doe--Your arguments are just silly.  You're basically saying on unrelated products you have occasionally gotten better OC results on reference boards, ergo, all reference boards are superior.  You then went on to give examples which proved your own argument wrong.  Will you please just stop, I'm sick of reading you getting your ass kicked post after post.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the most asinine assumption on earth.  BD was a let down, but mostly because of AMD's misleading marketting.  The product itself is still functional, and in heavily threaded applications even good, it just wasn't nearly as good as everyone expected given the use of the FX brand name, and AMD's own internal slides.



You mad?


----------



## trickson (Dec 13, 2011)

xenocide said:


> That's the most asinine assumption on earth.  BD was a let down, but mostly because of AMD's misleading marketting.  The product itself is still functional, and in heavily threaded applications even good, it just wasn't nearly as good as everyone expected given the use of the FX brand name, and AMD's own internal slides.



Asinine or not , There has even been talk from AMD stating they were not going to be giving as much attention to desktop CPU'S and going after the laptop market more aggressively . So really ? asinine ? Not from were I am standing it is not . Just look at there CPU market vs there GPU market . To me AMD has the best GPU on the market Hands down the best ! JMHO . So call me what you will the way I see things is just the way I see them . Sure BD is a good CPU but far from what EVERY one expected EVEN Intel expected much better !


----------



## trickson (Dec 13, 2011)

Damn_Smooth said:


> You mad?



Sounds like it don't it ...  Say any thing bad about AMD and the FANBOYS get pissed off . I am just calling it as I see it is all . Good or bad it seems strange that they have the best of the best video cards I have ever seen . nVidia is having a hard time IMHO keeping up with AMD/ATI !


----------



## xenocide (Dec 13, 2011)

Damn_Smooth said:


> You mad?



About what lol?  I didn't wait 9 months for a subpar product and enjoyed my SB while people waited and claimed BD would just crush it anyway.  Glad to see that worked out.



trickson said:


> Asinine or not , There has even been talk from AMD stating they were not going to be giving as much attention to desktop CPU'S and going after the laptop market more aggressively . So really ? asinine ? Not from were I am standing it is not . Just look at there CPU market vs there GPU market . To me AMD has the best GPU on the market Hands down the best ! JMHO . So call me what you will the way I see things is just the way I see them . Sure BD is a good CPU but far from what EVERY one expected EVEN Intel expected much better !



AMD stated they were no longer going to try and compete head to head in the high-end desktop CPU market with Intel--an area they haven't been competative in since 2005-6 anyway.  The belief is that AMD will continue to cater to the price\performance segment they have been for the past 2-3 years.  They are also probably going to try and capitalize on the APU market they have found reasonable amounts of success with.

As for comparing what they've done with their CPU and GPU lines, you have to remember AMD took a chance, and it didn't really pay off.  They are trying to push products that only really shine in heavily threaded applications, which in this day and age just aren't common.  Any program that uses more than about 3 threads is probably Work Station oriented anyway, and Intel's high-end offerings with their superior per-thread performance crush AMD when it comes to said software.

I would also say although AMD has competative GPU's, they aren't necessarily the best.  Nvidia still has a lot of market share, and continues to offer competative products in terms of price\performance.  There's also the looming issue of chronic Driver-related problems with AMD\ATi cards.  I love my HD5850, but updating drivers sucks something awful.


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Dec 13, 2011)

xenocide said:


> About what lol?  I didn't wait 9 months for a subpar product and enjoyed my SB while people waited and claimed BD would just crush it anyway.  Glad to see that worked out.



That worked out pretty good considering there's an Ivy upgrade coming not too long after these cards.


----------



## Rivage (Dec 13, 2011)

i prefer videocard, but not radeon.


----------



## newtekie1 (Dec 13, 2011)

John Doe said:


> Yes, it does. It provides accurate software voltage monitoring. Right at point and very stable regulation. It shows it's benefits under more extreme cases, so as to what degree it helps depends on your case. There haven't been extensive testing on it to show how much it adds to the reliability/stability of GPU. Though, more advanced VRM designs get lower ripple, which equates to cleaner power.



Again, you keep saying that, but it seems when set to the same voltage, the non-volterra card clocks better.  So again, prove that the Volterra improves overclocking.  You've shown an example of the non-Volterra solution overclocking better, now just reverse it and find a few examples of the Volterra getting better overclocks.  It should be simple if what you say is really true.

Of course, it is kind of hard to argue over things like this when you admit yourself that you don't own the cards, and you seem to not even be able to know that when comparing samples, making sure they are at the same voltage is an important thing to do...


----------



## Wile E (Dec 14, 2011)

I never cared what a pwm is made of, so long as it does it job properly. Analog pwm did just fine when I was sponsored by Palit and running 1.7+v thru G92's. Never popped a pwm circuit.


----------



## Casecutter (Dec 14, 2011)

Casecutter said:


> If I understood right, I read several month back that AMD would permit AIB's more leeway right from the initial release...


Called it!
http://semiaccurate.com/2011/12/13/amd-unchains-tahiti-pro-cards-from-day-one/



John Doe said:


> It's now just an inferior GPU with inferior drivers. It has nothing left to make itself really distinguish from nVidia. Understand?


 I read correctly, you're saying now both Nvidia and AMD are “indistinguishable”.  So both have "an inferior GPU" backed-up "with inferior drivers"; the only thing AMD had to distinguish itself was a better power section.  
But Nvidia always cost more? Good thing AMD wised up! 



trickson said:


> So really ? asinine ? Not from were I am standing it is not



That said by the person standing in "Parts Unknown"?


----------



## Tatty_One (Dec 15, 2011)

Casecutter, learn to use the "multiquote" button please and keep things civil.


----------



## H82LUZ73 (Dec 15, 2011)

trickson said:


> I wonder if AMD is giving up on CPU'S and focusing on Video cards . With the BD debacle and all kinda makes me wonder .



You better believe it,I said that "We watching a CPU company turn to GPU company " Back in the BD release thread 2 or 3 months ago.

LoL 
John Doe why you use a 570 and 470 in your machine and come here bitching about AMD cards.........Green Troll Alert........Just saying you want to bitch about power controllers start another thread.....Sorry mods have to say it.


----------



## ViperXTR (Dec 16, 2011)

whats this talk about december 22 launch?
http://vr-zone.com/articles/amd-bri...-series-forward-december-22nd-2011/14255.html

and pics?
http://www.donanimhaber.com/ekran-k...yanin-en-guclu-ve-en-gelismis-ekran-karti.htm


----------



## pantherx12 (Dec 16, 2011)

ViperXTR said:


> whats this talk about december 22 launch?
> http://vr-zone.com/articles/amd-bri...-series-forward-december-22nd-2011/14255.html
> 
> and pics?
> ...



Hope thats real, cards look nice.

Not that I ever keep stock coolers but still, nice to have the option


----------



## Damn_Smooth (Dec 16, 2011)

ViperXTR said:


> whats this talk about december 22 launch?
> http://vr-zone.com/articles/amd-bri...-series-forward-december-22nd-2011/14255.html
> 
> and pics?
> ...



Does 32 Rops even work with 384bit memory? I could be wrong, but I am under the impression that it doesn't. Seems too low either way.


----------



## erocker (Dec 16, 2011)

ViperXTR said:


> whats this talk about december 22 launch?
> http://vr-zone.com/articles/amd-brin...011/14255.html



Looks like I'm going to be up in the wee hours of the morning trying to get one.

There's also no talk of 32 ROP's in those screens and it looks like the graph by OBR, that one of those pics were taken and pasted on to some rumored info.


----------



## ViperXTR (Dec 16, 2011)

yeah, i would still take this info with a  grain of salt.

32 ROPs looks wee to low indeed (and doesn't add up with 384bit unless they do some weird configuration like what they did with the GTX 550Ti), i saw some info on kepler's ROPs are in the 48 to 64 range


----------



## DarkOCean (Dec 16, 2011)

ViperXTR said:


> yeah, i would still take this info with a  grain of salt.
> 
> 32 ROPs looks wee to low indeed (and doesn't add up with 384bit unless they do some weird configuration like what they did with the GTX 550Ti), i saw some info on kepler's ROPs are in the 48 to 64 range



rops on 550ti its not weird its 24 with 192bit just the vram size is... so in the case of tahiti should be 48 unless they've done something weird.


----------



## ViperXTR (Dec 16, 2011)

weird in a sense that it didn't follow the usual config on most cards but whatever hehe. If i understand correctly, 550 Ti's config is like:
http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2465977&postcount=5

3GB on a 384bit bus would prolly give similar config to custom 3GB GTX 580.
256MB x 12 chips, each chip would be 32bit wide, each chip would have  of uh... assuming 32 ROPs, how would you divide that with 12 memory chips? '__'


----------



## Casecutter (Dec 16, 2011)

Tatty_One said:


> Casecutter, learn to use the "multiquote" button please and keep things civil.


I should have kept revising the first one, as I found new stuff… my bad.  But civility, I’m the one dinged for not being civil?  Have you seen the avatar pic used by Tatty_One


----------



## Super XP (Dec 17, 2011)

AMD's CPU business is not going anywhere but UP. 

So AMD is planning on a massive HD 7970 launch on December 22, 2011.


----------

