# NanoCoolers puts liquid metal in your PC



## W1zzard (May 4, 2005)

Most of you may not have heard of NanoCoolers yet. This company is a relatively young Startup(May 2002) who has been working on improving cooling technologies behind closed doors for quite some time.

Now the first details on their cool new products emerge:



> The liquid metal has significant advantages over other single phase liquid solutions. The thermal and physical properties of the material give it the ability to cool extremely high heat fluxes. With its very low vapor pressure, the boiling point of the material is in excess of 2000°C. This provides the capability to cool extremely high power densities without the liquid-metal changing phase, removing power density as the limiting factor in cooling performance. The liquid metal is non-flammable, non-toxic and environmentally friendly. As a metal, the liquid is both highly thermally conductive and highly electrically conductive. The thermal conductivity makes it ideal for heat removal and dissipation. The electrical conductivity enables the use of electromagnetic pumps to propel the liquid.



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Mussels (May 4, 2005)

i want one


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## gR3iF (May 4, 2005)

hm lol  lets wait what they ca do


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## pixxi (May 4, 2005)

Looks like 16 pages to me....


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## gR3iF (May 4, 2005)

nice try but its a good way to offer a cooler and makes me feel nervous (wanna have it)


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## wazzledoozle (May 4, 2005)

This is the type of cooling they use to cool the cores of nuclear reactors   

I heard that the liquid metal will break down whatever it is held in rather quickly though.


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## gR3iF (May 4, 2005)

my pc is an atomic reactor


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## 15th Warlock (May 4, 2005)

wazzledoozle said:
			
		

> This is the type of cooling they use to cool the cores of nuclear reactors
> 
> I heard that the liquid metal will break down whatever it is held in rather quickly though.



Though liquid sodium has been used in some experimental fast breeder nuclear reactors, most common nuclear reactors use plain water to cool them down, which is much less complicated to implement on that scale than liquid metal is.
I think these coolers might be using something far less complicated, something like mercury perhaps?


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## Tieros (May 4, 2005)

> non-toxic and environmentally friendly



It ain't mercury


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## 15th Warlock (May 4, 2005)

Gallium perhaps?


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## Unregistered (May 4, 2005)

Gallium is feasable except it's expensive.  But with melting tempearature around 32C is is feasable.  I do not know the thermal capacity of gallium but I have used it a lot while working with MBE.


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## 15th Warlock (May 4, 2005)

In my University we were investigating the possible uses of Gallium (and Indium as well) as substitutes for mercury in tooth silver amalgam fillings, but costs were, as you say, too high, even though both metals are totally biologic friendly.
Anyway, I guess these new coolers would use very small amounts of any metal, and I guess will be very expensive and to be used only by enthusiasts, willing to pay the premium for metal cooling.
I cannot think of any other liquid metal to use


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## Unregistered (May 5, 2005)

*What the...*

"boiling point of the material is in excess of 2000°C"

Some new metal salvaged from the wreakage of UFO's at area 51 and our recent trips to mars have paid off.  Anyone know what it is?


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## Unregistered (May 5, 2005)

Liquidmetal perhaps?


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## 15th Warlock (May 5, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> Liquidmetal perhaps?



Twice the strenght of titanium alloys!


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## Unregistered (May 5, 2005)

electromagnetic pumps ... inside your case ... with hard drives


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## Unregistered (May 5, 2005)

The aptly named "new refrigeration" technology bears a striking resemblance to peltiers.

If they can find a way to actually make peltiers both energy efficient and feasable (most peltier cooling setups require an extraordinary amount of effort to cool the hot side) then I think that it would pay for itself.


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## Unregistered (May 5, 2005)

*It is liquid gallium look here*

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7348


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## Unregistered (May 6, 2005)

*Its an alloy*

I suspect their using an alloy of gallium. 85% Gallium plus 15% tin reduces the melting point to around 20 degrees celcius (from 30 degrees celcius for gallium.). 95% gallium,5% zinc has a melting point of 25 degrees. May be there are other additives I haven't thought of. 
     It's likely to be expensive with gallium around $220 US dollar/100grams (correct me if I'm wrong). I am also aware of research into gallium as a coolant.

Glenn (trust me I'm wearing a white dust coat).


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## Unregistered (May 6, 2005)

i just piss on mine ;-]


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## Unregistered (May 9, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> i just piss on mine ;-]


oughta pull plug first ;o)!


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## Unregistered (May 11, 2005)

*DumbA$$'s*

Read the posted article the metals not suppost to melt its a more heat absorbent metal...  And I quote: "Unlike water, the metal boils at 2000°C, which means it can absorb more heat without changing phase and becoming a troublesome gas.". Last time I checked AMD and Intel both said that their their CPUS would go after 150-180°C.  If you have proof that says your CPU hits higher then maybe I will retract my coment.


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## 15th Warlock (May 11, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> Read the posted article the metals not suppost to melt its a more heat absorbent metal...  And I quote: "Unlike water, the metal boils at 2000°C, which means it can absorb more heat without changing phase and becoming a troublesome gas.". Last time I checked AMD and Intel both said that their their CPUS would go after 150-180°C.  If you have proof that says your CPU hits higher then maybe I will retract my coment.



Next time you're going to call ppl names, get your facts straight, 'cause right now, the above statement makes a 4th grader look ten times as smart as you are...
Have you ever heard of Mercury? it's a liquid metal *at room temperature*, it's what's inside those old glass things your mom used to put in your mouth (and in other places...  ) to meassure your temperature. Does the word thermometer ring a bell?
Now, Gallium on the other hand melts at aprox. *29.76°C*, well under the idle temp of that thing called CPU inside your PC, but of course you've never heard of gallium before, have you?  
Now, boiling, put in layman terms, means turning any material into gasseus state, (meaning it is not liquid or solid anymore) so, as you kindly pointed out before:
_"Unlike water, the metal boils at 2000°C, which means it can absorb more heat without changing phase and becoming a troublesome gas."_
Let me translate that last paragraph to you, this means that this specific liquid metal (or alloy) won't turn into gasseus state unless it hits 2000°C, which is about 20 times over the boiling point of water (aprox 100°C depending on the altitude), did you get that, sport?


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## avatar_of_woe (May 14, 2005)

**

whatever it tries to cool it will break down sooner than an overclocked p4 aircooled.i think that watercooled now its the perfect sollusion...even the watercolled processors and graphic cards have some problems...imagine the nanocooled...anyway i am happy with my watercooled system cya


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## Unregistered (May 19, 2005)

most of the systems use gallium but some also use iridium...im almost sure none of them use mercury though


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## gR3iF (May 20, 2005)

sapphire announcend a x850xt pe with nano cooling in stock mode so lets wait for results


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## Unregistered (May 20, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> electromagnetic pumps ... inside your case ... with hard drives



You know your hard drive has magnets in it to position the heads right?  The hard drive motor has magnets in it too.


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## Unregistered (May 22, 2005)

If this liquid metal can really cool better than a high end water rig this new companys going to grow very fast.

Lower noise, lower temps, much more compact than water.........even if pretty expensive they'll sell very well.


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## Unregistered (May 23, 2005)

*According to the website*

I had to look for a very long time, but it says Zr based alloy. 

It cannot have Mercury becasue it is supposedly good for prostetics, which would mean that it couldnt have toxic materials in it.

I am interested as to where this technology will go. I wish they had more technical information about it, but the interviews are vague at the very best. I assume not everything is patented and they have some secrecy around it.


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## Tile (May 23, 2005)

With this kind of technology minitower ATX cases will be again in fashion


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## Unregistered (May 24, 2005)

It is Gallium, it says on the site, in their technology sections


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## Unregistered (May 25, 2005)

sorry to step on your toes and all, but the safest nuclear reactors in the world (go canada!!!... well fine then, we don't like you either... bleh =P ) use deutronium (I think that's what it's called) which is heavy water... the Hydrogens in water each have a neutron, or something like that. Oh and I think this is a great idea, I know I'm investing in this company as soon as it goes public =D


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## joshy (May 25, 2005)

*for cars maybe?*

i recon this liquid metal could be used in car 'liquid to air intercoolers' to give much better performance. woo hoo


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## Unregistered (May 25, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> sorry to step on your toes and all, but the safest nuclear reactors in the world (go canada!!!... well fine then, we don't like you either... bleh =P ) use deutronium (I think that's what it's called) which is heavy water... the Hydrogens in water each have a neutron, or something like that. Oh and I think this is a great idea, I know I'm investing in this company as soon as it goes public =D



I believe deutronium is used to absorb radioactivity.  Or to release neutrons for fission.  Or something involving the fission, I don't remember what.  It's not any better at cooling.  And I think it's called deuterium, but whatever.  You say "patato" (potato), I say "pototo."


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## Unregistered (Jun 2, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> electromagnetic pumps ... inside your case ... with hard drives




Everything that spins inside your computer uses some sort of electromagnet.  The Fans...the harddrive itself....etc


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## Unregistered (Jun 2, 2005)

Well it could interfer with the other magnetic activites. and the hard drive is like a box with a very fast disc. storing memory as electro magnetic.. things. i don't know the word for it. anyways keep in mind on an average citizen virus infected PC the pumps will be VERY VERY small and the magnetic range will be EXTREMLY short. don't whine because my spelling is horrible! i'm still getting used to one of those "blank" keybords with funky springs and thinggs which by the way is $80


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## Unregistered (Jun 9, 2005)

*Howsaboot no?*



			
				Unregistered said:
			
		

> sorry to step on your toes and all, but the safest nuclear reactors in the world (go canada!!!... well fine then, we don't like you either... bleh =P ) use deutronium (I think that's what it's called) which is heavy water... the Hydrogens in water each have a neutron, or something like that. Oh and I think this is a great idea, I know I'm investing in this company as soon as it goes public =D




Not to belittle Canada any more than she already is...but the safest nuclear reactor title?  Try the United States Navy.  All those reactors on carriers and submarines, being operated by people as young as 21?  No accidents?  No nuclear-related deaths over the course of 50+ years?  Sorry Canada.


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## Vorlaplex (Jun 16, 2005)

The LiquidMetal alloy is made of titanium, copper, nickel, zirconium, and beryllium.  However, I fear it is probably unlikely to be the material used in this system, given that it has a melting point of approximately 400degC.  However, if Intel keep making chips the way they did the P4, we could be well on our way


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## Vorlaplex (Jun 16, 2005)

nanoCoolers:
"With its patents still pending, NanoCoolers has declined to release details of the metal, except to say it's a mixture comprised predominately of gallium."

http://www.nanocoolers.com/newsroom_detail.php?news_id=16

Maybe it's me, but I couldn't find Gallium listed anywhere else, including their technology section, even when using their search system.....

However.....

US Patent No 6,658,861

"The system as recited in claim 1 wherein the liquid metal contained in the solid-fluid heat exchanger is selected from a group consisting of indium, gallium, mercury, bismuth tin alloy, bismuth lead alloy and sodium potassium eutectic alloy."

"In the preferred embodiment, the liquid metal carried by tube 309 is an alloy of gallium and indium. Preferred compositions comprise 65 to 75% by mass gallium and 20 to 25% indium. Materials such as tin, copper, zinc and bismuth may also be present in small percentages. One such preferred composition comprises 66% gallium, 20% indium, 11% tin, 1% copper, 1% zinc and 1% bismuth. Some examples of the commercially available Gain alloys include galistan--a concoction popular as a substitute for mercury (Hg) in medical applications, and newmerc. The various properties of Ga--In alloy make it desirable liquid metal for use in heat spreaders. The Ga--In alloy spans a wide range of temperature with high thermal and electrical conductivities. It has melting points ranging from -15.degree. C. to 30.degree. C. and does not form vapor at least upto 2000.degree. C. It is not toxic and is relatively cheap. It easily forms alloys with aluminum and copper. It is inert to polyimides, polycarbonates, glass, alumina, Teflon, and conducting metals such as tungsten, molybdenum, and nickel (thereby making these materials suitable for construction of tubes). 

However, it is apparent to one skilled in the art that a number of other liquid metals may be used without departing from the scope of the invention. For example, liquid metals having high thermal conductivity, high electrical conductivity and high volumetric heat capacity can be used. Some examples of liquid metals that can be used in an embodiment of the invention include mercury, gallium, sodium potassium eutectic alloy (78% sodium, 22% potassium by mass), bismuth tin alloy (58% bismuth, 42% tin by mass), bismuth lead alloy (55% bismuth, 45% lead) etc. Bismuth based alloys are generally used at high temperatures (40 to 140.degree. C.). Pure indium can be used at temperatures above 156.degree. C. (i.e., the melting point of indium)."

Also see US Patent No 6,708,501

Well, I for one am still confused about the alloy they could possibly be using......


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## Unregistered (Jun 22, 2005)

This was invented by Albert Einstein before WWII he and a couple of engineers
had a refridgerator company and they used an electromagnetic pump to circulate
liquid metal for cooling.


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## Thermopylae_480 (Jun 22, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> sorry to step on your toes and all, but the safest nuclear reactors in the world (go canada!!!... well fine then, we don't like you either... bleh =P ) use deutronium (I think that's what it's called) which is heavy water... the Hydrogens in water each have a neutron, or something like that. Oh and I think this is a great idea, I know I'm investing in this company as soon as it goes public =D



Actually pebble bed reactors are currently safer I believe.  They are self regulating requireing no control rods making a meltdown impossible, these reactors cool through natural convection. The fissonable material is contained within a graphite ball about the size of a base ball (Thousands of them). They just slowly fission away, giving ofs plenty of heat to generate power.

And may I remind you that even a *properly constructed* reactor designed in any of the older ways is perfectly safe.  There have only one major and one minor accident, and there are thousands of reactors across the globe.  Many former Soviet countries still however use reactors with the exact same design as Chernobyl with no other incidents.  Chernobyl was a result of gross human error, not faulty design.  Although the lack of a proper containment structure is worrisome.


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## Unregistered (Jun 24, 2005)

*Don't be foolished by their advertisement*

One story they didn't tell is the pump needs a 0.9 Tesla magnetic field to drive. Can you imagine how 
HUGE that field is? Can you guarantee it will not damage your electronics?


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## Urlyin (Jun 24, 2005)

Have any of you guys seen this from Sapphire? Cooler already using liquid metal   







> (ATI RADEON™ X850 XT Platinum Edition Chipset)
> 
> Turning the Ordinary Into Extraordinary!
> 
> Blizzard delivers the future of gaming with the RADEON X850 XT PE's ability to push blistering framerates, while keeping your tool cool via an industry first advent, LIQUID METAL COOLING solution! Built upon a liquid metal technology that is 65X more thermally conductive than water and requires no moving parts, the Blizzard is equipped with the definitive long term cooling solution for today and tomorrow's demanding enthusiast.


Here's the link


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## wazzledoozle (Jun 25, 2005)

> requires no moving parts



I see 2 fans


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## Urlyin (Jun 25, 2005)

wazzledoozle said:
			
		

> I see 2 fans



LOL ... I was wondering if anyone would catch that ....   What is that about ... no moving parts my ....    ...


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## gR3iF (Jun 25, 2005)

me and my dad a physic prof dont know what metall it could be rather than queck


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## Unregistered (Jun 26, 2005)

*2 fans*

the second fan is supposed to be redundant and not used in normal operation... have to see if it's true when the tests and reviews come out.
But remember, you need air moving to bleed heat off, if it's just standing, stale air then the heat just builds up, think about putting your computer inside a foot locker and closing it. Without a hole on one side to let air in, and on another to let air out, you'd just end up with a hot...hot hot hot foot locker and an instable computer.


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## wazzledoozle (Jun 26, 2005)

If it still has to have a fan, what is the point? Its still a big chunk of metal on your video card that has to be cooled. How about on-card refridgeration systems?


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## Vorlaplex (Jun 27, 2005)

gR3iF said:
			
		

> me and my dad a physic prof dont know what metall it could be rather than queck



This reminds me of a saying...."You may be a college graduate, but your son is still an idiot"

Quiz Time

1) What does "physic" mean?
2) What is a "metall"?
3) What is "queck"?  Definition: A word occurring in a corrupt passage of Bacon's Essays, and probably meaning, to stir, to move.
4) Why doesn't "dont" require an apostrophe?
5) Why don't people think to read previous posts?

P.S.  Only the prototype model is supposed to contain fans, the final retail model is supposed to operate without the fans.

I got to get me one of these...
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031230/5ghz-01.html


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## Unregistered (Jun 27, 2005)

Believe me -- No matter what versions, it does need fans to take heat to the air! Liquid metal is just used to take heat from the chip!



			
				Vorlaplex said:
			
		

> This reminds me of a saying...."You may be a college graduate, but your son is still an idiot"
> 
> Quiz Time
> 
> ...


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## Unregistered (Jun 27, 2005)

Why doesn't someone just send an e-mail and ask?


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## gR3iF (Jun 28, 2005)

hmpf okay here in long but in this case my english might not be enough.
u know these things from the old days wich you get when you are ill and you were too hot?
inside there was a metal this thing is the only that is fluid while beeing on room temp

so this is the only known metal that can be used for this cooler 
and this metal is toxic really toxic


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## Unregistered (Jun 28, 2005)

wazzledoozle said:
			
		

> I see 2 fans



It says "requires no moving parts" it didn't say it "has no moving parts."


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## Vorlaplex (Jun 28, 2005)

gR3iF said:
			
		

> hmpf okay here in long but in this case my english might not be enough.
> u know these things from the old days wich you get when you are ill and you were too hot?
> inside there was a metal this thing is the only that is fluid while beeing on room temp
> 
> ...




http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart-elements/melting-point.htm

Francium has not yet been made in a stable manner yet, but both cesium and gallium are liquid metals at just above room temperature, and certainly at "chip" temperature.  In addition, the reference I gave to the patent earlier, a patent applied for by nanoCoolers, the users of this 'liquid metal', clearly states, amongst other things, a predominantly gallium-indium alloy "One such preferred composition comprises 66% gallium, 20% indium, 11% tin, 1% copper, 1% zinc and 1% bismuth".

In fact "The various properties of Ga--In alloy make it desirable liquid metal for use in heat spreaders. The Ga--In alloy spans a wide range of temperature with high thermal and electrical conductivities. It has melting points ranging from -15.degree. C. to 30.degree. C. and does not form vapor at least upto 2000.degree. C. It is not toxic and is relatively cheap."

This clearly states a metal alloy which is non-toxic, relatively cheap, high boiling point and low melting point (albeit not as low a Mercury) metal.  Stop saying you don't know, and just read the post, properly this time.


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## Vorlaplex (Jun 28, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> Believe me -- No matter what versions, it does need fans to take heat to the air! Liquid metal is just used to take heat from the chip!



Yes, but the use of the liquid metal does allow for a much more varied design of heatsink.  I agree that fans are practically a necessity (my information of no fans is based on their press release) but it is possible to use much better and larger fans, which produce less noise for a given air flowrate.  Coupled with a more efficient heat exchanger design, this should help to reduce the temperature of the chip quite substantially, even if large, low noise fans are still  necessary.

In addition, I would like to point you to this information:

"Some early testing showed that prototype cooled Radeon X850XT PE card to just 12 Celsius.

It can work completely fanless and can cool the high end fastest and latest greatest cards. Sapphire will have this product ready in July and will launch many other SKUs based on it."

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23331

Now, given that I have a Radeon 9800XT and, despite the nice copper heat exchanger and fan on the unit and the two fans in my case, I find it a challenge to get the temperature below 75deg.C (without a cool breeze from outside), I think 12deg.C is pretty impressive, and, even without the fans, I'd imagine that the temperature would still be pretty good.  As a final note, you could even simply run the fans you do have on the card, but at a lower speed to reduce the noise, taking advantage of the superior heat transfer properties (or at least their current claims).

As a second final note, if you check their (nanoCoolers) presentation, you will note that they only specify no moving parts in the pump (obviously in contrast to water cooled systems).  This shows that they did not specify the lack of fans on the final system.  Quite frankly, I think in the end, few people who are willing to buy this system would be prepared to turn off the fans to save noise in preference to showing off to their friends that their liquid metal cooling system kicked the seven shades of ..... out of their water cooling system, even given the noise.


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## John at BU (Jun 30, 2005)

*tinkerer, phd student*

Looks exciting.  My guess is that the "liquid metal" is in fact some sort of metal suspension (or possibly solution) in another liquid (ever notice the magnet on some oil filters? It's there to catch metal particles from engine wear).  I'd put money on any metal being liquid at room temperature as being toxic or too damn hot to safely use in a home or office.  As for Nuclear reactors, I grew up next to one... and the "cooling" being done is actually part of the energy transfer loop - all industrial US reactors use good ol' steam engines powered by steam from a secondary or tertiary loop (to prevent radioactive contamination). The 'coolant' is supersaturated steam in the primary loop which vaporizes the water in the second loop to drive the steam engine.  Using "liquid metal" in a reactor coolant scheme is not quite what it sounds.  Nuclear reactors all work by converting the simple heat of a moderated nuclear reation in to mechanical energy and then in to electrical energy (save for those in satellites).  Water will always be in the primary loop.  In the secondary loop they are using a liquid metal scheme which converts the heat energy in to motion of the liquid metal which then creates an electromagnetic field and thus electricity... the heat is then re-caputured from the liquid metal, probably by water again, and either drives another steam engine or simply dissipates to atmosphere (or the ocean) as non-radioactive steam (or just warm water).  It all comes down to efficiency - how much heat energy you can convert to mechanical and then to electrical.  When you're producing megawatt electricity, every portion of a percent counts.

As a side note  Heavy water is used as a moderator in the nuclear reaction itself (so is lowering and raising control rods).  Funny thing is, plants are designed so that they can only be active when there is a certain amount of heavy water present to "moderate" the neutron speed.  Also, pebble bed reactors simply represent a cheaper design, safer . more fail-safe, fuel form (encapsulated "pebble" fuel), and a more efficient energy transfer scheme.

The slides we all looked at were clearly intended for a non-technical audience.  My bet is that it was for a venture-capital audience or business management-level people in the company.  

I also noticed a slide about thermoelectrics... which is, by the way, a horrible way to cool something because it produces a great deal of excess heat.  I don't know the details, but I know they can get very hot on the back side.  My guess is that the company is planning on sandwhiching a thermoelectric sheet between the cpu and the heat sink.  This would increase the heat transfer rate from the chip and possibly cool it below room temperature (which you cannot do with a conventional H20 based liquid system, but would have great ramifications for home-pc performance).  Since the liquid metal (whatever it is) has a high heat capacity and high thermoconductivity, it may heat up well beyond what would be traditionally expected of gpu or cpu chip and thus explain much higher temperatures.  Given Newton's law of cooling - it may actually be a good idea to have the liquid metal run hot so long as the temperature of the thermocouple on the cpu/gpu side is cool.  This will allow increased thermal conductivity to the radiator blades (especially if there is limited surface area) and an increased temperature differential between the blades and the ambient air temperature.  However, I think many people are missing the point... I've seen some discussion of CPU temperatures which doesn't make any sense unless you consider at what rate it is being cooled (watts).  For example, you can have a 1000 watt lightbulb be cool to the touch if it's being cooled (heat is being taken away somewhere else) fast enough OR, a 25 watt bulb will burn you to a crisp if it's enclosed and the heat has no where to dissipate. So, in the end, I'm sure whoever is putting this "liquid metal" cooling scheme together is finding an optimal solution given the standard thermodynamic equations. 

One thing I really like, however, about their solution :  no condensation!   If you were to use a refrigerant-based system (like in a typical house)... which is easy to make small - it would be hard to keep the pipes going to your chip from dripping water on everything else ... bad stuff.

As for the magnets - magnetic shielding is trivial and moving "liquid metal" at the low power consumption they are talking about will probably produce a far weaker field than the circuits on your video card.

Well, I apologize for the lack of effort, misspelling, and probable misuse of terminology.  I usually don't post to discussion forums.

 I would, however, expect this technology to be rather ubiquitous as the power consumption (and thus heat dissipation) of gpu/cpu chips increases.

For the mean time, consider that the more you have to cool your cpu, the more you heat the room it is in... the more you heat the room it is in, the more you have to cool your room, the more you have to cool your room, the more you have to heat up something else.... the air outside.  Can't beat the laws of thermodynamics!!!  

Anyway, I liked the comment about US Navy... being an ex-sailor.


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## Unregistered (Jul 27, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> Not to belittle Canada any more than she already is...but the safest nuclear reactor title?  Try the United States Navy.  All those reactors on carriers and submarines, being operated by people as young as 21?  No accidents?  No nuclear-related deaths over the course of 50+ years?  Sorry Canada.



LOLOLOL no incidents.. If there even be an accident u think they'll tell it to public?..


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## fred the disgusted (Jul 27, 2005)

*"deutronium" utilized as a neutron moderator or radiation shield - ridiculous!*

when i read that inane nonsense i almost fell off my chair laughing.

DEUTERIUM is the heavier, non-radioactive isotope of hydrogen, not "deutronium" - that hogwash term came from "lost in space", a goofy sci-fi show I watched when I was a kid in the 1960's.

good lord, how sophomoric.


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## PacoBell (Jul 28, 2005)

John at BU said:
			
		

> One thing I really like, however, about their solution :  no condensation!   If you were to use a refrigerant-based system (like in a typical house)... which is easy to make small - it would be hard to keep the pipes going to your chip from dripping water on everything else ... bad stuff.


There's an easy way to keep a refrigerated system cool, but above zero degrees centigrade: limit the duty cycle with a thermostat. Nobody said you had to keep it on all the time.


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## Unregistered (Jul 29, 2005)

John at BU said:
			
		

> I'd put money on any metal being liquid at room temperature as being toxic or too damn hot to safely use in a home or office.


How can something be too damn hot in room temperature, I asks ya? Is a cup full of 25C liquid metal hot-hot-hot or not?


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## Unregistered (Aug 1, 2005)

Vorlaplex said:
			
		

> In addition, I would like to point you to this information:
> 
> "Some early testing showed that prototype cooled Radeon X850XT PE card to just 12 Celsius.
> 
> ...


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## Unregistered (Aug 17, 2005)

Melting point for this liquid metal is - 20 C . I might add that it is not cheap either you can pick it up for approx. $24 US for 2cc.


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## Unregistered (Aug 17, 2005)

This is pretty exciting tech actually.

It is using all the basic principles of water cooling, but it's more efficient and safer. It is more durable and requires little or no maintenance.

For the examples of sub-ambient cooling, they would have to be using the thin-film thermo-electric coolers. In the thin-film version, these devices use much less power and create much less heat added to the total heat burden. I use water cooling, have used TECs all the way up to the most powerfull commercially available for a PC, 437watts. The thin-film thermo-electric TECs give this technology a greater range of application then the Liquid Metal cooling alone, but they are not required for all cooling applications.

As for needing fans, that fully depends on the heat exchanger design. There is no reason that passive cooling design won't work for the final stage heat exchanger. But there are requirements and they would mean a lot of surface area would have to be used for passive cooling to work.

Every chip has a range of temperatures in which they can function properly, the ideal solution is a cooling device which can maintain the chip's temp within this range in normal environmental conditions. For the average PC, this range isn't so bad, but some PCs must be operated in harsh environments, some people are overclockers and induce additional stress changing the requirements. Reguardless, any cooling solution which is simple, requires little maintenance, low cost, and is effective across a wide range of operating envirnments is a good thing.


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## Unregistered (Aug 19, 2005)

Not exciting at all. 

Liquid metal cooling is just a hoax. Although thermal conductivity is very high, the heat capacity of the liquid metal is so low (365 W/Kg.K vs 4218 W/kg.K for water), that means it need much higher volume flow rate for the cooling.  So, it will have almost same performance as a water cold plate, which is much cheaper. Moreover, a MHD pump has very low capability for pumping, although it is claimed as no moving part inside.

As to a TEC, anyone knows its efficiency? Itis around 10% (regular mechanic refrigiration system is around 3~4!).  That means if you want to cool down 100W, you need put 1,000 W electriicty there. Anyone is Crazy like that?

Besides, liquid metal never be safer that water. It is corrisve and nobody know its stability yet.





			
				Unregistered said:
			
		

> This is pretty exciting tech actually.
> 
> It is using all the basic principles of water cooling, but it's more efficient and safer. It is more durable and requires little or no maintenance.
> 
> ...


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## Unregistered (Aug 20, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> oughta pull plug first ;o)!



People like this guy shouldn't be allowed to breed. I say leave the darn thing plugged in !


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## Unregistered (Sep 3, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> Not to belittle Canada any more than she already is...but the safest nuclear reactor title?  Try the United States Navy.  All those reactors on carriers and submarines, being operated by people as young as 21?  No accidents?  No nuclear-related deaths over the course of 50+ years?  Sorry Canada.



I hate to be the one to inform you that the US is not without nuclear screw-ups.  Three mile island ring any bells?


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## Unregistered (Sep 5, 2005)

-------------
As to a TEC, anyone knows its efficiency? Itis around 10% (regular mechanic refrigiration system is around 3~4!). That means if you want to cool down 100W, you need put 1,000 W electriicty there. Anyone is Crazy like that
-------------
your a moron.


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## Unregistered (Sep 5, 2005)

*One Question... Why did they pull the pages??*

Anyone notice that the company pulled all their pages about liquid metal cooling.  Is it possible they jumped the gun somewhere being that they're a "startup" and all.  Quite odd.

I remember visiting the site a while back and they listed "Liquid Metal Cooling" on their technology page.


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## Unregistered (Sep 5, 2005)

Wow, you guys are pretty hard on each other here. Anyhow, I have it from a reliable source, ie someone who works for Sapphire, that the Blizzard project has been scrapped. It is my understanding that Sapphire wanted to continue with the project but the company who was to produce the heatsinks wanted to go a different direction.


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## Unregistered (Sep 5, 2005)

No moving parts means it uses a solide state pump. Basically, if that gallium alloy flows along Z axis, there's aan electric field created along X, and a magnetic filed along Y.

Who said it needs 0.9 T. It's pumpin' metal, not air or salted water, that's not a MHD glider.


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## Unregistered (Sep 6, 2005)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> Not to belittle Canada any more than she already is...but the safest nuclear reactor title?  Try the United States Navy.  All those reactors on carriers and submarines, being operated by people as young as 21?  No accidents?  No nuclear-related deaths over the course of 50+ years?  Sorry Canada.



Just a little fact, the United States stopped manufacturing nuclear reactors due to a cost efficency budget, it was found more resourceful to purchace reactors and matenece for those reactors from their neighbour to the north. all reactors used in the states are the Candue reactor, manufacutred in Ontario Canada.


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## Aitch (Sep 6, 2005)

15th Warlock said:
			
		

> Next time you're going to call ppl names, get your facts straight, 'cause right now, the above statement makes a 4th grader look ten times as smart as you are...
> Have you ever heard of Mercury? it's a liquid metal *at room temperature*, it's what's inside those old glass things your mom used to put in your mouth (and in other places...  ) to meassure your temperature. Does the word thermometer ring a bell?
> Now, Gallium on the other hand melts at aprox. *29.76°C*, well under the idle temp of that thing called CPU inside your PC, but of course you've never heard of gallium before, have you?
> Now, boiling, put in layman terms, means turning any material into gasseus state, (meaning it is not liquid or solid anymore) so, as you kindly pointed out before:
> ...



You sound a right d*ckhead.


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## Unregistered (Sep 6, 2005)

So many of you people in here are so far 'up yourselves' it's actually quite amusing. Who honestly cares about a few spelling mistakes apart from an anal retentive hermit ?

Grow up and stop trying to score points off each other...it's like a kindergarten in here.


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## 15th Warlock (Sep 6, 2005)

Aitch said:
			
		

> You sound a right d*ckhead.



Hello, and welcome to 4 months ago, "d*ckhead"


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## Unregistered (Sep 6, 2005)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After you know the story, you know you are really a moron.

I met the guy, U. Ghoshal, from nanocoolers in a meeting of June 2005. He talked about his TEC and showed the efficiency is 10%, currently. He agreed that currently nobody can use it until the ZT>=3.0. However, nobody knows when it will come becuase if you reach ZT=2.0, you could publish a paper in Nature. 

So, come on. Don't fight each other. Just call the nanocoolers or email to ask some professional questions.

Another one is on MHD pump, the number of 0.9T is from a journal paper. The MHD pump for liquid metal circulation is not new, people study it for a long time. However, if the outer magnetic field is not strong enough, the liquid cannot flow.

In general, my conclusion is the liquid metal cooled video card WILL NOT happen. Ask some experts from thermal engineering to get some knowledge before shouting around here!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


			
				Unregistered said:
			
		

> -------------
> As to a TEC, anyone knows its efficiency? Itis around 10% (regular mechanic refrigiration system is around 3~4!). That means if you want to cool down 100W, you need put 1,000 W electriicty there. Anyone is Crazy like that
> -------------
> your a moron.


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## Unregistered (Sep 7, 2005)

Looks good on paper, lets see what it really can do!


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## sgi (Sep 22, 2005)

Hi, I recently get confirm that the Nanocoolers liquid metal cooling will NOT appear in that video card. In the November 2005 version of MAXIMUM PC, an article of " Liquid-metal-cooler videocard is a No-Go" tells you all (page 11).

So, guys, the most important thing is using your brain first and then the mouth. If you don't understand, ask the experts before claiming.


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## sgi (Oct 6, 2005)

*NOW, it's DEAD.*

See this poster then you know everything is OVER.


http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25164

BTW, the new topic of theirs -- thermoelectric cooling is JUST another topic of cheating money. It will NEVER succeed.

If you go back to visit here after ONE year, you will know what I say is true.


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## ScottKin (Nov 25, 2005)

One benefit from this so-called "Liquid-Metal" cooling system is this:

Q. How many of you have ruined your system because of a leak in your water-cooling system?

Everyone who has had this happen or have heard of it happening, please raise your hand!

With the proposed Liquid-Metal cooling solutions, the system is a closed-loop, within tubes simiar to what are used for heat-pipe solutions like those from Zalman. The liquid-metal can't leak out.

Whether this will be an actual solution, in light of NanoCoolers pulling their L-M product, has yet to be seen.

--ScottKin


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## ericgrau (Mar 25, 2006)

I'm a Mechanical Engineering student at UC Berkeley, taking a heat transfer class.

The limiting factor when cooling a concentrated heat source - like a tiny CPU - is conductivity, not specific heat.  This idea shows great promise.

Heat is indestructable and must go somewhere.  All heat sinks dissipate 100% of the CPU's heat; no more, no less.  The amount of heat dissipated is a combination of efficiency and temperature.  The amount of heat dissipated is fixed by the CPU.  So efficient heat sinks dissipate the same heat while running at a lower temperature, period.  Great heat sinks do so with low air flow, either from a slow fan or warm air rising naturally.

Common TECs take roughly 100-266W of power to cool 100W, not 1000W.  TEC's have a trade-off between performance and efficiency.  Refrigeration takes about 20-40W to cool 100W.  Both are up to twice as efficient when underloaded (which advertisers assume  ).

ALL nuclear power plants use heavy water (i.e., with deuterium in it).  It's essential.


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## CjStaal (Mar 26, 2006)

> In addition, I would like to point you to this information:
> 
> "Some early testing showed that prototype cooled Radeon X850XT PE card to just 12 Celsius.
> 
> ...



A. Yes there has been deaths on submarines due to nucleur reasons... Ever hear of the infamous german subs that almost ALWAYS killed the crew, of course, not right away, gotta keep the sub. Who gives a shit about the german people? Of course, not Germany.

B. Those were Atom bombs buddy.


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## CjStaal (Mar 26, 2006)

Unregistered said:
			
		

> I hate to be the one to inform you that the US is not without nuclear screw-ups.  Three mile island ring any bells?


Exactly my point also.


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## sgi (Mar 27, 2006)

I am happy Ericgrau replied my post. I have two things to add:

1) thermal resistance If you read any textbook, papers or tutorials on electronics cooling, you can find the formula of thermal resistance. It has two parts, first one, 1/(hA), is connected with thermal conductivity of the fluid; and the second one, 1/(2mCp), is connected with the fluid capacity. Check www.electronics-cooling.com if want to know more. Liquid metal has very high thermal conductivity. However, the pump is not strong enough to provide enough mass flow rate (like nanocoolers). Therefore, the performance of liquid cooling is weak. Same in Cooligy (Kenneth Goodson at Stanford founded), their electroosmitc pump doesn't work either. That's the reason Cooligy was sold. These two companies collected over 20 million dollars for their project each. But they gave up, finally (you can check their website or contact them).

The lesson here is, check it carefully before starting.

2) TEC efficiency You are partially correct. I cited the number (10%) is too small (from nanocooler guy's paper). The COP of TEC is generally can be order of one or less, depending on a lot of factors. Among those factor, temperature rise (delta T) and Tref are two dominated factors besides the material properties. Commercial TEC products have no impressive performance in refrigeration cooling. That's the reason many companies are trying to improve it (like Nextreme, Nanocooler, JPL etc.). But my view is, before ZT is greater 3.0, TEC cannot compete with other technologies.

The lesson here is, don't believe it before thinking carefully.


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## ericgrau (Mar 27, 2006)

sgi said:
			
		

> I am happy Ericgrau replied my post. I have two things to add:
> 
> 1) thermal resistance ... 1/(hA), ... 1/(2mCp),
> 
> ...



the h in 1/(hA) is related to fluid conductivity (~10-20 times better for liquid metal vs. water) and heatsink geometry & conducivity (~same in either case).  In my thermo textbook they actually derive values of h from this.  So liquid metal cooling wins hands down here.  The second equation, which should be 1/(m'Cp), depends on the mass flow rate (m' = density times flow rate) and specific heat (Cp) of the fluid (~3 times better for water).  Water wins hands down here.  For a standard 180gph pump: m' = 12.5g/s, Cp = 4J/g, so R = 1 / (12.5 * 4) = 0.02C / W.  So an 80W cpu would lose only 1.6C from water or ~5C from liquid metal.  Not much.  Also keep in mind that heat transfer temperature.  Most cooling methods do nearly all of their cooling at the hottest parts near the tiny CPU, and not much everywhere else.  Using liquid metal (or a copper base plate, for example), helps spread out that heat a great deal, dramatically reducing the 1/(hA) term.  So unless the flow rate is below, let's say ~60gph (which might be the case), liquid metal should win overall.

COP 3.0, huh?  Well a TEC could be advertised with a COP of 2.0 assuming low load (which is how they normally rate COP).  I think TECs are still by far the best solution for cooling CPUs below room temperature, because refrigeration is just too big and expensive.  I'm working on a setup to overclock my next 2 video cards at between -57.5C (3 stage) and -20C (2 stage), depending on the card's power consumption (40W-80W).  Over 8 years I'll supposedly get my money back plus ~$500 from not buying more expensive video cards.  These estimates come from a close look at TEC performance curves, the thermal resistivities of my heatsinks, the contact resistance of thermal compound, etc.  The supposed money saved is still up in the air, and I'll have to take a close look at some actual video cards to be sure.

Here's the secret: Run your TECs at 6V instead of 12V to get the higher efficiency.  To get 6V, just wire 2 in series.  That will make it easier to stack multiple stages and easier to cool the final stage.  For a more conservative setup, I'd recommend running 4 72W TECs in parallel to cool an 80W load, or 2 in parallel to cool a 40W load.  Don't supercool the CPU directly.  Use a water block on the CPU and cool the fluid.  This keeps your heat spread out more.  2-4 TECs may seem like a lot, but remember at 6V you don't get as much performance - your "72W" TECs aren't 72W anymore.  They're roughly equivalent to 40W TECs, except for their higher efficiency.  But it's worth it because power hungry 12V TECs are next to impossible to cool.  Why use multiple 72W TECs instead of 1 powerful TEC?  Again, it's to spread out the heat more.  4 times the area (and 4 times the heatsink size) means 1/4 the losses.  By my numbers (which could be wrong), this setup should get your chip down to 17C with cheap (but decent) heatsinks & fans cooling the TECs, or as low as 12C with expensive heatsinks & fans cooling the TECs.  Power consumption is only 20W per TEC, so you don't need a seperate power supply like most setups.

The common way to do this is to get a 212W TEC, a $48 heatsink, air cool it with a massive 60dB fan (!), get a very powerful case fan, get an auxillary power supply to run the TEC, get a relay to automatically turn on your auxillary power supply and then hopefully you'll be down to 20C.  If that's not enough to spend by itself, your electricity bills will make you wonder why you didn't just buy a better PC.  Not to mention the difficulty you'll have hearing your games with your fan running, unless you replace the fan and heatsink with a very expensive water cooling setup (your ordinary water cooling setup won't cut it).  You want 2 stages to run it even colder?  Okay, let's get 3-4 more 212W TECs...


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## sgi (Mar 29, 2006)

I am happy someone wants to discuss 

the h in 1/(hA) is related to fluid conductivity (~10-20 times better for liquid metal vs. water) and heatsink geometry & conducivity (~same in either case). In my thermo textbook they actually derive values of h from this. So liquid metal cooling wins hands down here. 

You are right! But this part isn't important in total thermal resistance 

The second equation, which should be 1/(m'Cp), depends on the mass flow rate (m' = density times flow rate) and specific heat (Cp) of the fluid (~3 times better for water). 
Water wins hands down here.

For a standard 180gph  (A pump for liquid metal with this number has not been developed yet and it is expected no this product in the future)  pump: m' = 12.5g/s, Cp = 4J/g, (for liquid metal, cp=0.365 J/g)   so R = 1 / (12.5 * 4) = 0.02C / W. So an 80W cpu would lose only 1.6C from water or ~5C from liquid metal. Not much. Also keep in mind that heat transfer temperature. 

Most cooling methods do nearly all of their cooling at the hottest parts near the tiny CPU, and not much everywhere else. (Wrong, if you check carefully for any liquid cooling system, an ambient heat exchanger is always there. You must guarantee heat can be taken away by air finally. Otherwise, the system will die immediately. Therefore, total thermal resistance must includes this ambient heat exchanger. Unfortunately, liquid metal performs badly there.) 

Using liquid metal (or a copper base plate, for example), helps spread out that heat a great deal, dramatically reducing the 1/(hA) term. So unless the flow rate is below, let's say ~60gph (which might be the case), liquid metal should win overall. (Check the 1st page of this post and see the performance of Nanocooler's devices. Then think carefully and ask why its performance doesn't match your estimation. Another easy way is to call nanocoolers and tell them you have a better way to save liquid metal cooling technique. )




COP 3.0, huh? Well a TEC could be advertised with a COP of 2.0 assuming low load (which is how they normally rate COP). (NOT COP, It is ZT) I think TECs are still by far the best solution for cooling CPUs below room temperature, because refrigeration is just too big and expensive. I'm working on a setup to overclock my next 2 video cards at between -57.5C (3 stage) and -20C (2 stage), depending on the card's power consumption (40W-80W). Over 8 years I'll supposedly get my money back plus ~$500 from not buying more expensive video cards. These estimates come from a close look at TEC performance curves, the thermal resistivities of my heatsinks, the contact resistance of thermal compound, etc. The supposed money saved is still up in the air, and I'll have to take a close look at some actual video cards to be sure. 

Here's the secret: Run your TECs at 6V instead of 12V to get the higher efficiency. To get 6V, just wire 2 in series. That will make it easier to stack multiple stages and easier to cool the final stage. For a more conservative setup, I'd recommend running 4 72W TECs in parallel to cool an 80W load, or 2 in parallel to cool a 40W load. Don't supercool the CPU directly. Use a water block on the CPU and cool the fluid. This keeps your heat spread out more. 2-4 TECs may seem like a lot, but remember at 6V you don't get as much performance - your "72W" TECs aren't 72W anymore. They're roughly equivalent to 40W TECs, except for their higher efficiency. But it's worth it because power hungry 12V TECs are next to impossible to cool. Why use multiple 72W TECs instead of 1 powerful TEC? Again, it's to spread out the heat more. 4 times the area (and 4 times the heatsink size) means 1/4 the losses. By my numbers (which could be wrong), this setup should get your chip down to 17C with cheap (but decent) heatsinks & fans cooling the TECs, or as low as 12C with expensive heatsinks & fans cooling the TECs. Power consumption is only 20W per TEC, so you don't need a seperate power supply like most setups.

The common way to do this is to get a 212W TEC, a $48 heatsink, air cool it with a massive 60dB fan (!), get a very powerful case fan, get an auxillary power supply to run the TEC, get a relay to automatically turn on your auxillary power supply and then hopefully you'll be down to 20C. If that's not enough to spend by itself, your electricity bills will make you wonder why you didn't just buy a better PC. Not to mention the difficulty you'll have hearing your games with your fan running, unless you replace the fan and heatsink with a very expensive water cooling setup (your ordinary water cooling setup won't cut it). You want 2 stages to run it even colder? Okay, let's get 3-4 more 212W TECs...

There is some comparison among TEC solution and Non-TEC solution. I am sure you can find somewhere. The baseline is, you must have a heat sink with very low thermal resistance so that you don't need too much increase in temperature to dissipate the extra heat from TEC itself (electricity). Otherwise, it will get worse.


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## ericgrau (Mar 31, 2006)

A detailed thermal analysis is needed to discuss liquid metal further  .  I don't want to bother.  But I can say any good textbook would do for those interested.  Basically liquid metal will in fact do a better job if the pump flow rate is very high.  But apparently that's difficult to accomplish.  Any time I mentioned "cooling" I meant heat transfer from CPU to the closest fluid (water or liquid metal, not air except in a pure air cooling setup).  I assume a good radiator is feasible with any liquid cooling system.

Said TEC complications involved a TEC setup with TECs run at full power.  I plan on using low power and common high thermal resistance CPU heatsinks.


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## PVTCaboose1337 (Mar 31, 2006)

Yes, YES! now we can overclock more and that means FAST!


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