# Is downloading and playing the leaked Crysis 2 legal?



## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

Since we are not allowed to discuss ethics in the "Crysis 2 Leaked" thread, I thought I would start one where that is the topic of discussion.

My personal opinion is that it is piracy (thus illegal) and that you are using a product that you have no right to use. It is the property of Crytek and no matter how somenone wants to "spin it", they have not been given permission to use said property.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

Well with out a doubt it not legal but I wouldn't say pirating it is the same as pirating Dead Space 2 or any other finished game. 

Stealing is stealing but in this case its like stealing half an xbox 360 or a quarter of a ps3 or listening to a 5 min song with only 3 min of actual recording time and the parts that do play are out of tune, skip, stutter or don't make sense. 

So bad? Sure? to What extent? Left to you to decide. Your getting something thats incomplete, which to the majority of the users, means crap other than getting a preview.


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

I am talking about the leaked game at the moment. Sorry - I should have clarified that in the OP


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## n-ster (Feb 21, 2011)

copying 50% of a book is plagarising, so stealing 50% of a game is stealing, simple as that. Not legal and I'm disappointed so many TPUers have downloaded it. There is a fine line between downloading a leaked beta and a full game.


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## devguy (Feb 21, 2011)

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I haven't had even the slightest inclination to download the Crysis 2 leak.  I'm definitely pumped for the game, but I want to experience it in full DX11.

Still, if the game was leaked with DX11 support, I still wouldn't download it.  But I am appalled with the relatively recent EA PC game price hike up to $60.  All other companies still released their games at $50...


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## Phxprovost (Feb 21, 2011)

devguy said:


> Maybe I'm in the minority, but I haven't had even the slightest inclination to download the Crysis 2 leak.  I'm definitely pumped for the game



my thoughts on this


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## jellyrole (Feb 21, 2011)

Everyone has different views on this, so why can't you just leave it at that? 

Yes, clearly it's illegal and that can't be debated making the poll useless..


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## Soylent Joe (Feb 21, 2011)

It's only illegal if you get caught


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## Mussels (Feb 21, 2011)

the question in the OP is misleading.

you ask about downloading crysis 2, which is not - you should have specified the leaked alpha/beta, which is very different from a legal perspective, to a finalized game with DRM and copy protection.


I'll quote myself in the other thread here:




Mussels said:


> it could be, depending on laws.
> 
> 
> around here, for it to be counted as piracy you have to prove that someone was disadvantaged by the alleged piracy.
> ...





it may well be immoral, but by definition (at least in my country) its not illegal. the only person to truly commit a crime, is the one who stole the game in the first place and uploaded it to the net.


If its not legal where you are, or you dont think its legal where you are - dont download it. remember that laws differ, and in some countries this year that hundreds of people were arrested for being in a room with a member of the opposite sex on valentines day without a chaperone. Laws differ, and you cant force laws in your region upon those in another, regardless of your beliefs.


edit: link NSFW, it has some erotic advertising on the site that i cant do anything about, as that page is the source of the article.


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## erocker (Feb 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> around here, for it to be counted as piracy you have to prove that someone was disadvantaged by the alleged piracy.
> can they lose money from it?



Well, if someone from your country was caught, I'm sure EA and their team of laywers could definitely make a case that it is piracy and they are losing money from it. Most game companies have taken this stance.


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## Mussels (Feb 21, 2011)

erocker said:


> Well, if someone from your country was caught, I'm sure EA and their team of laywers could definitely make a case that it is piracy and they are losing money from it. Most game companies have taken this stance.



they could try, but so far (that i know of, or that i found in google) there is no precedent for piracy of a product not for sale yet, or a software product where they didnt use the cracking/removal of DRM as the major point in the case.


If someone pirates a DVD, they had to remove the protection to do so - and i'm sure in the USA those fines are stupidly high like they are here, so that that alone is enough to send the pirates to jail, without having to prove anything else (such as an actual piracy claim)


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## AltecV1 (Feb 21, 2011)

its nice to see the world at different shades of grey and not just black and white


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> they could try, but so far (that i know of, or that i found in google) there is no precedent for piracy of a product not for sale yet, or a software product where they didnt use the cracking/removal of DRM as the major point in the case.
> 
> 
> If someone pirates a DVD, they had to remove the protection to do so - and i'm sure in the USA those fines are stupidly high like they are here, so that that alone is enough to send the pirates to jail, without having to prove anything else (such as an actual piracy claim)



Well if anything maybe its a patent infringement? 

I don't know law in technical terms or for where you live but that sounds relevant lol.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

@ mussels - you may get lucky in Austria (near Portugal) with your DRM argument, but in the USA I'm pretty damn sure it's illegal.  I would assume this relates to a persons right to sell or not sell their property, which means obtaining (or copying) it without permission would be illegal.  I'm not dredging up legal bits to support my argument because that's boring.  Where's twilyth at?


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## Mussels (Feb 21, 2011)

AltecV1 said:


> its nice to see the world at different shades of grey and not just black and white



i think thats why its such a hot topic, people find it hard to realise there is a middle ground. some think you're either against piracy, or you are a pirate.
they dont realise that its not piracy in some countries (and hell, unless they're a lawyer how would they know for sure?), and that this particular instance is very, very different to pirating a game normally.
I agree that IF this is illegal where you are, dont download it. but if its not, why shouldnt you? this does far less harm than downloading a completed finalized game and cracking it.


oh and i finally thought of a reply to a comment someone else made, that this is like copying half a book - they said it was still illegal/plagiarism, because you copied half the book without permission.

This is copying half of an early manuscript, 6 months before the book was for sale. you know the key points wont change, but many revisions, changes, and additions will be made.
it would be illegal to steal the script and share it - but is it illegal to read it, so long as you dont attempt to sell it for money, *or copy it and try to sell it as your own? 

(*in the games world, that would be making your own game to rip it off before the game was released... which would be pretty hard to do in such a short time)




AphexDreamer said:


> Well if anything maybe its a patent infringement?
> 
> I don't know law in technical terms or for where you live but that sounds relevant lol.



doesnt patents usually have to deal with something you're selling yourself, using ideas or technology someone else patented? you dont get charged with patent infringment for downloading and cracking a game, so how would it apply to here?


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> doesnt patents usually have to deal with something you're selling yourself, using ideas or technology someone else patented? you dont get charged with patent infringment for downloading and cracking a game, so how would it apply to here?




IDK lol, I'm just playing Devil's advocate here 


I still like my analogy better. " Its like listening to a 5 min song with only 3 min of it actually having been recorded and the parts that do play are out of tune, skip, stutter or don't make sense."

Also.. What are we to do if the people from Crytek did intentionally leaked it but didn't want anyone knowing they did? 
Food for thought.


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## Brandenburg (Feb 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> it may well be immoral, but by definition (at least in my country) its not illegal. the only person to truly commit a crime, is the one who stole the game in the first place and uploaded it to the net.



hmm..  Your argument/analogy is weak 1st and for most...  Knowledge of a crime is the same as committing the crime IMO.. If I buy goods from a dude and they are stolen.. Is that not a crime?..I fail to see the difference... The fact that this was an early release is immaterial and DAMN sure would not use such a defense in a court of law..

as for the dude that stole the game.. isn't this theft of trade secrets. Just curious.. Seams like it could be considered that..

And the company could definitely  say that they lost revenue for the bad press from people playing an early version of the game.. Will they..  Na.. They will just let the situation blow over, try to limit the damage, and tighten up the controls a bit to prevent this from happening again...About the only thing they can do at this point..

Ill close in saying I don't really care either way other than the apparent hypocrisy on the matter of pirating...


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Also.. What are we to do if the people from Crytek did intentionally leaked it but didn't want anyone knowing they did?


Make comments like this? 

This thread is about a legal question, not about Crytek's motives or our conspiracy theories.  In the USA I can design and build anything I want and it's my right to NOT sell it, just as much as it's my right to sell it.  This means if someone copies the blueprints or an early prototype for my widget then they're free to steal my mechanism (unless it's patented), but they're still violating my copyright because they obtained the copyrighted blueprints/prototype without permission.



> _Publication is not necessary for copyright protection._



http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#published


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## alexsubri (Feb 21, 2011)

all jokes aside, i believe if you are pirating and then reselling pirated goods then its more illegal. Yes downloading a leaked BETA can be considering illegal, but its just a BETA, there is no disclosure or Terms of Service you are signing before you play it. Besides, EA has a lot to learn from this. They have been very hush hush on who actually leaked it in the first place. The bottom line is, it is so hard to stop Piracy. I do agree to a certain extent that it isn't fair for the consumer's who are willing to pay. But, Piracy is getting more and more popular these day's. BTW Bulletstorm just leaked (Besides Killzone3). EA needs to get their shit together.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 21, 2011)

Who cares if it's legal. I'm much more bothered by the thought of it being discussed on here period. Historically this doesn't go well on any tech forum.

Every single one of us has broken some law at some point, highly likely by choice, and probably continuing to do so now. Yet some stand around picking and choosing which ones they deem ok to break, and which are "wrong". Getting all moral-fag on people's asses because they personally think breaking law B is worse than law C. Well fudge you, there's plenty that would agree breaking law C is worse. Now that it's all flipped around they can be the victim of hollow moral scrutiny.

Here's a common situation. Someone here either directly or inadvertently reveals they pirated something. Cue someone coming along and saying something to the effect of "you very bad, I spit at your feet with disgust". And naturally, a very large portion of the time this person will have broken many laws themselves. A common one would be speeding. It could easily be argued that speeding endangers lives, where as piracy does not. Now who gets to stand on the higher moral ground? All these discussions do is embarrass the morally over zealous and or ostracize whatever poor schmuck revealed his particular law breaking habits.

Despite all the big words and convoluted excuses, accusations and thanks button clicks thrown around in these discussion they ultimately boil down to a big fat waste of time that changes squat about anyone's opinion on anything. As such, I believe this picture is the only thing that ever needs to be posted in such a ridiculous discussion.


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## submicron (Feb 21, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Who cares if it's legal. I'm much more bothered by the thought of it being discussed on here period. Historically this doesn't go well on any tech forum.
> 
> Every single one of us has broken some law at some point, highly likely by choice, and probably continuing to do so now. Yet some stand around picking and choosing which ones they deem ok to break, and which are "wrong". Getting all moral-fag on people's asses because they personally think breaking law B is worse than law C. Well fudge you, there's plenty that would agree breaking law C is worse. Now that it's all flipped around they can be the victim of hollow moral scrutiny.
> 
> ...



Enough said!


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## n-ster (Feb 21, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Who cares if it's legal. I'm much more bothered by the thought of it being discussed on here period. Historically this doesn't go well on any tech forum.
> 
> Every single one of us has broken some law at some point, highly likely by choice, and probably continuing to do so now. Yet some stand around picking and choosing which ones they deem ok to break, and which are "wrong". Getting all moral-fag on people's asses because they personally think breaking law B is worse than law C. Well fudge you, there's plenty that would agree breaking law C is worse. Now that it's all flipped around they can be the victim of hollow moral scrutiny.
> 
> ...



Some people actually live without breaking the law, at least not too many times. I for one do not break many laws. Just because others break laws doesn't mean it is OK to break it

So what if someone who doe speeding says that pirating is breaking the law anyways? it does not mean it is OK to do so


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

All laws are not morals.

All morals are not laws.

I think many people confuse this.  

The question in this thread, "Is downloading and playing Crysis 2 legal?" is a legal question, not an ethical one.  The answer to that question is almost trivial in the USA: NO.

If the question were phrased, "Is downloading and playing Crysis 2 immoral?" I would have to say that is debatable, as pretty much anything in ethics is.  If you're from the USA, you're aware that our citizens have a proud history of ignoring laws which they disagree with.  Whether breaking a law is ethical, is also up for discussion. . .

Besides the ethical questions there are economic, sociological and business issues to be resolved.

Furthermore I consider all of these topics to be fascinating and mind-bogglingly complicated.
http://musicbusinessresearch.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/paper-felix-oberholzer-gee.pdf
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,710976,00.html
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0374223130/?tag=tec06d-20
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.html
http://www.demos.co.uk/files/DemosMusicsurvey.ppt
http://mortimer.fas.harvard.edu/concerts_01oct2010.pdf
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/

Those links are not representative of my opinion, just a sampling of my repository on the subject.


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## n-ster (Feb 21, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> All laws are not morals.
> 
> All morals are not laws.
> 
> ...




I don't see how stealing part of a game is morally correct


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## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

There seem to be two questions here:

1 Legality: no, as defined by law in most places, it's not legal.
2 Morality: is it really so bad to do it? Does it cause the software house financial damage or whip up interest? These are grey areas and can be discussed for hours without any conclusion. The fact is that copyright law has been skewed heavily in creator's interests, because they're rich and powerful.

Finally, having a so-called "pirate" copy is not stealing, no matter how big media corporations try to spin it.  It's _infringement_, which is different. You are simply going against their wishes.

The basic difference is that if you take a physical item, the owner no longer has it. If you take a digital _copy_, you both have it. That's why it's a copy. Therefore you haven't stolen it. If you were to _move_ the file from their computers to yours, _that_ would be stealing, because they no longer have it.

Two great sites that talk about all this are:

www.p2pnet.net

www.techdirt.com


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

qubit said:


> There seem to be two questions here:
> 
> 1 Legality: no, as defined by law in most places, it's not legal.
> 2 Morality: is it really so bad to do it? Does it cause the software house financial damage or whip up interest? These are grey areas and can be discussed for hours without any conclusion. The fact is that copyright law has been skewed heavily in creator's interests, because they're rich and powerful.
> ...



Interesting and thanks for the links


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## Mussels (Feb 21, 2011)

Brandenburg said:


> hmm..  Your argument/analogy is weak 1st and for most...  Knowledge of a crime is the same as committing the crime IMO..



except that to my knowledge, its NOT a crime here.


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> except that to my knowledge, its NOT a crime here.



This is something that is opening my eyes a bit...
Different countries and cultures have different laws. What makes something right or wrong in the country I live in does not make it the same globaly. But when you go to the basic value of what is right and what is wrong, what is the answer?


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## DaedalusHelios (Feb 21, 2011)

It is illegal as it is intellectual property that you do not own and have not paid for the rights to use it before the release date. Law isn't written with fairness in mind. It is purchased with riders attached.  

Intellectual property law is in effect almost completely worldwide in all UN recognized countries. Punishments vary greatly but they are inflated sentences/punishments because of the amount money that goes into paying off politicians to legislate these laws. If you pirate huge amounts of intellectual property(copyrighted material) you will have a heavier sentence than getting drunk and killing someone with your car in the USA. Assuming you get max sentencing *and you actually get caught with all the material.* It is idiotic but there is nothing we can really do about it. If you are worried about it and you are a pirate then you could use a medium like IRC to get it. I have never heard of someone getting caught pulling material from IRC servers. If you have heard of a case where someone did get caught using it then please let me know so I can research it further.


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## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

HammerON said:


> This is something that is opening my eyes a bit...
> Different countries and cultures have different laws. What makes something right or wrong in the country I live in does not make it the same globaly. But when you go to the basic value of what is right and what is wrong, what is the answer?



That depends on whether you subscribe to the point of view of Socrates or the sophists: a universal single Good or a Good that is variously defined depending on location and context?


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## Mussels (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> That depends on whether you subscribe to the point of view of Socrates or the sophists: a universal single Good or a Good that is variously defined depending on location and context?



now thats a good response. I adhere to the varying good idea completely.


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## the54thvoid (Feb 21, 2011)

DaedalusHelios said:


> It is illegal as it is intellectual property. Intellectual property law is in effect almost completely worldwide in all UN recognized countries. Punishments vary greatly but they are inflated sentences/punishments because of the amount money that goes into paying off politicians to legislate these laws. If you pirate huge amounts of intellectual property(copyrighted material) you will have a heavier sentence than getting drunk and killing someone with your car in the USA. Assuming you get max sentencing and you actually get caught with all the material. It is idiotic but there is nothing we can really do about it.



I was about to mention the intellectual property thing.  If the work in progress (the project and development of Crysis 2) is protected under any copyright or IP laws, then yes, it is illegal to obtain without consent of the owner.

Irrespective of Piracy (and the non-payment issue) somone's property has been 'stolen' or is being 'handled' by persons knowingly.

Yes it's a crime.  But who cares?  EA suck.

Is it immoral? (rant following - read at your peril)

No, dont be so dumb.  Morality is an essence of culture, not the law.  As an atheist i find the justification of war for religious reasons abhorrent yet it is morally defined as 'Jihad' by some strict Muslims.  Likewise, some right wing christians kill Abortion doctors as they believe their act is moral under the 'eye for and eye' nonsense of christian faith.  Honour killings where woman who dare not marry through their 'arranged' practises are killed by their family in some asian cultures - immoral to me - not to them.

No, leave morailty out of it.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

n-ster said:


> I don't see how stealing part of a game is morally correct


I never said that it was.  I was saying, is it morally dubious?

I believe it is wrong to pirate the Crysis 2 beta.  I also have the opinion that pirating the Crysis 2 beta does not have a known effect on the potential success of the game.  Nagging in the back of my head is also the thought that the next Will Wright/Hideo Kojima might just pirate that game and be inspired to become the greatest developer of all time.  It's not impossible. . .


qubit said:


> The basic difference is that if you take a physical item, the owner no longer has it. If you take a digital copy, you both have it. That's why it's a copy. Therefore you haven't stolen it. If you were to move the file from their computers to yours, that would be stealing, because they no longer have it.


According to the FBI breach of copyright is IP theft, which is tantamount to "stealing".
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/cyber/ipr/ipr

Sure it isn't stealing in the traditional sense, but I hate for a discussion about ethics to be caught up in semantics. 

@ btarunr - USA laws are a little different:


> _*Do I have to register with your office to be protected?*
> No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”
> . . .
> *When is my work protected?*
> Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device._


http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork


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## btarunr (Feb 21, 2011)

Crysis 2 isn't even released, there's no copyright in place, there's no EULA in place.

It's not like someone got hold of a final copyright/EULA-bound copy, pirated it violating the EULA, and uploaded it.

You can take a laptop running the leaked Crysis 2 to EA CEO's chamber and tell him "I'm running the leaked Crysis 2, bitch!", and he will be in no position to act on you (on grounds of copyright infringement).


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

btarunr said:


> Crysis 2 isn't even released, there's no copyright in place, there's no EULA in place.
> 
> It's not like someone got hold of a final copyright/EULA-bound copy, pirated it violating the EULA, and uploaded it.
> 
> You can take a laptop running the leaked Crysis 2 to EA CEO's chamber and tell him "I'm running the leaked Crysis 2, bitch!", and he will be in no position to act on you.



Even though there was no "license agreement" available when this (leaked) game was downloaded does not mean that there was not an "implied agreement" that a responsible person would agree existed. How many companies would include this exclusion in a "Alpha" build of a game they are developing? And should they state such?


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## DaedalusHelios (Feb 21, 2011)

btarunr said:


> Crysis 2 isn't even released, there's no copyright in place, there's no EULA in place.
> 
> It's not like someone got hold of a final copyright/EULA-bound copy, pirated it violating the EULA, and uploaded it.
> 
> You can take a laptop running the leaked Crysis 2 to EA CEO's chamber and tell him "I'm running the leaked Crysis 2, bitch!", and he will be in no position to act on you.



Intellectual *property* law still covers it in the USA. I can't speak for India though. Nobody in their right mind would prosecute it in the USA so it is not like you would have something to worry about. I thought the debate was more theoretical than anything.




the54thvoid said:


> I was about to mention the intellectual property thing.  If the work in progress (the project and development of Crysis 2) is protected under any copyright or IP laws, then yes, it is illegal to obtain without consent of the owner.
> 
> Irrespective of Piracy (and the non-payment issue) somone's property has been 'stolen' or is being 'handled' by persons knowingly.
> 
> ...




'Eye for an eye' is an Old Testament philosophy(Judaism's main holy book) that was thrown out in Christianity thanks to the New Testament(Christianity's main holy book) from what I have read. I too am an Atheist but I don't really think religion has anything to do with a universal morality that we can all follow. Religion would just pervert it because there is more than one and they don't all even remotely agree with each other. Law and religion should be kept separate and law should simply protect your right to express religion. That is provided that a religious practice isn't detrimental to society or infringing on anyone else's rights.

I will say that is way off topic though. lol


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## btarunr (Feb 21, 2011)

DaedalusHelios said:


> Intellectual *property* law still covers it in the USA. I can't speak for India though. Nobody in their right mind would prosecute it in the USA so it is not like you would have something to worry about. I thought the debate was more theoretical than anything.



What I'm saying is that the leaked Crysis 2 build isn't registered as EA property, yet, it's not a rip of the final product. Whoever leaked the build to the internet is clearly someone from within EA, and what was leaked had no EULA or DRM that the user had to abide by.


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

Poll currently is 40 "Not legal" to 8 "Legal".


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## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> According to the FBI breach of copyright is IP theft, which is tantamount to "stealing".
> http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/cyber/ipr/ipr
> 
> Sure it isn't stealing in the traditional sense, but I hate for a discussion about ethics to be caught up in semantics.



Of course the FBI will define it that way.  They are at one with Big Business that has told them to define it that way, with bribes and corruption. Just look at the RIAA/MPAA types that have weaseled their way into the highest levels of the American government.

However, in truth, it remains an infringement, not stealing, as I explained above.


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

btarunr said:


> What I'm saying is that the leaked Crysis 2 build isn't registered as EA property, yet, it's not a rip of the final product. Whoever leaked the build to the internet is clearly someone from within EA, and what was leaked had no EULA or DRM that the user had to abide by.



So because it is not registered and did not have EULA or DRM it makes it okay to download and play the game? Was Crytek to know that a leaked early version was to hit the internet and it is their fault for not taking every precaution possible?


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## the54thvoid (Feb 21, 2011)

DaedalusHelios said:


> 'Eye ... was thrown out .... thanks to ...a universal morality. .. pervert ...should be ...provided ... to society.



Is what i just did 'moral'?, 'criminal' or 'art'?

Nah, I'm just playing with you.  At least read what i've selectively quoted in a Stephen Hawkings voice and it sounds funny (to me).  I agree with your post


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## btarunr (Feb 21, 2011)

HammerON said:


> So because it is not registered and did not have EULA or DRM it makes it okay to download and play the game? Was Crytek to know that a leaked early version was to hit the internet and it is their fault for not taking every precaution possible?



That's an ethics issue, not a legal issue. 

Each time you play unreleased-incomplete-crysis2-build, an alien kitten dies on the Lingshan island.


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

qubit said:


> Of course the FBI will define it that way.  They are at one with Big Business that has told them to define it that way, with bribes and corruption. Just look at the RIAA/MPAA types that have weaseled their way into the highest levels of the American government.
> 
> However, in truth, it remains an infringement, not stealing, as I explained above.


I was trying to find a precedent from the Judicial branch as well and I found one:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=998



> _Criminal intellectual property theft offenses include copyright and trademark infringement and theft of trade secrets._



It appears that Intellectual Property Theft (aka "stealing software", aka "copyright infringement") is defined in legal vernacular. . .

This may be due to the urging of the FBI and constant bribes from the RIAA/MPAA, but it is nevertheless a fact we should be aware of and it has little (if any) effect on the original argument.  Also I'm sure you're aware that the White House is quite fond of the term "Intellectual Property Theft".

Oh and sorry but I just realized this doesn't relate to your native country.  I'm merely pointing out that in the courts of the USA copyright infringement is a form of theft (stealing).  This doesn't necessarily pertain to the UK.


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## DaedalusHelios (Feb 21, 2011)

btarunr said:


> What I'm saying is that the leaked Crysis 2 build isn't registered as EA property, yet, it's not a rip of the final product. Whoever leaked the build to the internet is clearly someone from within EA, and what was leaked had no EULA or DRM that the user had to abide by.



My understanding is that all work done by workers in agreement with EA, is the property of EA. Even early prototypes of products are covered by intellectual property law in the USA from what I understand. EULA's and DRM do not have to be in place for something to be corporate property as far as I know. That all being said, it is not like they are going to prosecute people passing it around on the internet.


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## The Witcher (Feb 21, 2011)

To be really honest, I think that downloading a pirated game is "morally" wrong, I don't care about Man-made laws because they are not reliable and often influnced by lobbies or certain groups to fulfill their goals.

From my own precpective everyone who downloaded a pirated game had somekind of reason to justify downloading it. Personally, when I used to download pirated games I simply didn't care about laws or morals, but when I grew older (I'm 20 yo) I started to see how wrong it is..still I tried to download Crysis 2 leaked beta because I wanted to see it and I'm 100% sure that I was going to buy it, this is just me, I'm not trying to encourage anyone or say that what I used to do is "Right".

Another point is that Crysis 2 leaked beta is incomplete so I don't see why some people are so pisst off ?! Beside most of the people who are going to pirate Crysis 2 weren't going to buy it in the first place. 

I'm sick of these companies that keep complaining that Piracy is causing PC games industary death and I'm sick of the naive people who actually believes them. They are simply looking for money that's why they focus on the consoles because whether we liked it not, casual players (mostly consoles players) outnumber the PC community, currently focusing on PC isn't the best business strategy especially if you were making a SinglePlayer game.


----------



## Over_Lord (Feb 21, 2011)

HammerON said:


> Since we are not allowed to discuss ethics in the "Crysis 2 Leaked" thread, I thought I would start one where that is the topic of discussion.
> 
> My personal opinion is that it is piracy (thus illegal) and that you are using a product that you have no right to use. It is the property of Crytek and no matter how somenone wants to "spin it", they have not been given permission to use said property.




Here's the facts... Piracy is illegal, DOWNLOADING a pirated copy is NOT.

You can stop a person from uploading a game or torrent, that is rampant piracy. BUT NOT stop us from downloading.


----------



## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

thunderising said:


> Here's the facts... Piracy is illegal, DOWNLOADING a pirated copy is NOT.
> 
> You can stop a person from uploading a game or torrent, that is rampant piracy. BUT NOT stop us from downloading.



But aren't you supporting piracy (which is illegal)?


----------



## btarunr (Feb 21, 2011)

HammerON said:


> But aren't you supporting piracy (which is illegal)?



Piracy is when someone uploads the usable, complete, release-grade product that has actual market value. 

The leaked crysis2 build is partially usable, largely incomplete, not release-grade, and has no market value.

Again, my stand on this topic is that it's utterly inethical to play that leaked crysis 2 build. Anyone who's playing or distributing it is being an arsehole. But the legality angle is rather weak.



thunderising said:


> Here's the facts... Piracy is illegal, DOWNLOADING a pirated copy is NOT.



Downloading a pirated copy is piracy. Just that in this case, the leaked build isn't a pirated copy. When you download the released version, you're indulging in piracy, and that's both ethically and legally wrong.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> I was trying to find a precedent from the Judicial branch as well and I found one:
> http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=998
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info, it just confirms how entrenched this whole idea of copying-as-stealing is within US government.

Of course, everything is different in my little quantum world. 

But seriously, the UK is a bit of a sock puppet to the USA to say the least*, so they define copying as stealing too and the laws are not too different here, either.

*The UK has a "special relationship" with the USA, which most people understand as they do whatever America wants.  One can put this considerably more rudely and less respectfully, but I'll leave that to your imagination...


----------



## Over_Lord (Feb 21, 2011)

HammerON said:


> But aren't you supporting piracy (which is illegal)?



that would be when I encourage others to DOWNLOAD it, or upload/seed it myself...

which I havn't


----------



## btarunr (Feb 21, 2011)

thunderising said:


> that would be when I encourage others to DOWNLOAD it, or upload/seed it myself...
> 
> which I havn't



As you're downloading, your torrent client is uploading.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

thunderising said:


> Here's the facts... Piracy is illegal, DOWNLOADING a pirated copy is NOT.
> 
> You can stop a person from uploading a game or torrent, that is rampant piracy. BUT NOT stop us from downloading.






HammerON said:


> But aren't you supporting piracy (which is illegal)?



Take Sony for example, the company that, amongst other "services", has bequeathed Securom to allegedly combat piracy.

During the heyday of the VCR, how many blank video tapes did Sony sell? Clearly they did not assume that people were using these items to exclusively record family gatherings, which begs the questions, were they supporting piracy and helping to create a culture of piracy? Was it legal then to record television broadcasts for non-commercial purposes whilst now it is illegal to make a back-up of a game because this entails circumventing DRM?  

Times have undoubtedly changed, but "legality", as I have attempted to suggest, often changes as a result of corporate interest rather than improved moral fortitude. 

Clearly somebody is making money from all of these "illegal" downloads, is it not fair to say that there is an element of sour grapes rather than a desire to uphold copyright law, given that many corporations disregarded copyright law or reaped profits from products that empowered such infringement (blank video tapes) in the past? Should we not also consider the moral standpoint of the companies involved in intense political lobbying against piracy and ask whether or not they have, to an extent, failed to adapt their business model to current trends and wish to redress a lack of foresight through legislative change?


----------



## LAN_deRf_HA (Feb 21, 2011)

The Witcher said:


> To be really honest, I think that downloading a pirated game is "morally" wrong, I don't care about Man-made laws because they are not reliable and often influnced by lobbies or certain groups to fulfill their goals.



Well then I'm left to assume you allow your personal morals to act as your laws... which technically are still man-made and open to exterior influence whether you recognize it or not.

An example would be someone being opposed to gay marriage not for any of the reasons they claim publicly or have convinced themselves of personally, but simply because it makes them uncomfortable in a homophobic manner, probably from deep running societal stigmas.


----------



## erixx (Feb 21, 2011)

thanks cubit for techdirt linkie.

There I learned that I am probably a thief and pirate because I once drank a "Duff" beer. 

LOL


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

erixx said:


> thanks cubit for techdirt linkie.
> 
> There I learned that I am probably a thief and pirate because I once drank a "Duff" beer.
> 
> LOL



I'm not sure if you're kidding with me, or misunderstood the article.

TechDirt is actually pointing out the absurdity of copyright and the interests of Big Media, who constantly abuse it to attack ordinary people.

That TechDirt article on Duff Beer


----------



## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

Here's a brief history regarding copyright.


----------



## erixx (Feb 21, 2011)

qubit said:


> I'm not sure if you're kidding with me, or misunderstood the article.
> 
> TechDirt is actually pointing out the absurdity of copyright and the interests of Big Media, who constantly abuse it to attack ordinary people.
> 
> That TechDirt article on Duff Beer



Why did you think I misunderstood what? Didn't you notice my irony? No problem: it was ironic


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> it may well be immoral, but by definition (at least in my country) its not illegal. the only person to truly commit a crime, is the one who stole the game in the first place and uploaded it to the net.





Mussels said:


> except that to my knowledge, its NOT a crime here.



And by definition you would be wrong. The fact is its illigal in your nation. Please look up the WIPO Copyright Treaty. For shits and giggles I looked up Austrailia and guess what? You are a member. Which means when you downloaded the game you broke the law.



btarunr said:


> What I'm saying is that the leaked Crysis 2 build isn't registered as EA property, yet, it's not a rip of the final product. Whoever leaked the build to the internet is clearly someone from within EA, and what was leaked had no EULA or DRM that the user had to abide by.



Yeah? Well I hate to break it to you but Crysis 2 is in fact a registered trademark. So again you are wrong.


----------



## The Witcher (Feb 21, 2011)

Piracy supporters are gone.....IT'S THE MAIL MAN !!!


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> And by definition you would be wrong. The fact is its illigal in your nation. Please look up the WIPO Copyright Treaty. For shits and giggles I looked up Austrailia and guess what? You are a member.
> 
> Which means when you downloaded the game you broke the law.
> 
> ...



Didn't see Spain on the list, although that could be my eyesight, so I assume I can legally download this.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> Didn't see Spain on the list, although that could be my eyesight, so I assume I can legally download this.



No you cannot. Here is the list. Spain is on it.

http://www.wipo.int/members/en/


----------



## Over_Lord (Feb 21, 2011)

btarunr said:


> As you're downloading, your torrent client is uploading.



and that's why i havn't downloaded the crysis 2 beta, unlike MOST of the users here


EDIT:

besides, I dont torrent

use direct downloads instead...


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No you cannot. Here is the list. Spain is on it.
> 
> http://www.wipo.int/members/en/



Yes, I saw it the second time round, but you can rest easy, I have no intention of downloading this. 

However, you should be aware that it is not a criminal offence to download copyrighted material in Spain, it is only a criminal offence when you seek to acquire profit via said material.

*Right to the private copying and home playing*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_copyright_law#Exceptions

The law explicitly allows to make private copies of copyrighted work without the author's consent for published works if the copy is not for commercial use. To compensate authors, the law establishes a compensatory tax associated with certain recording media (CDs, DVDs, cassettes), managed through societies of authors and editors (as SGAE and CEDRO). Such private copies of a protected work must be made for the private use (not collective, nor lucrative) of the copier (2�º of art. 31): the author is compensated by a tax on the means of reproduction (e.g. photocopiers, blank cassettes) determined at article 25. However, computer programs can not be copied except for a backup copy (art. 99.2): they can be modified for the sole use of the person performing the modification (art. 99.4). Any work can be played in a "strictly home" environment (art. 20.1) without the author's consent. The moral rights of the author can only be exercised in the respect of the rights of owners of copies of the work or of rights to its exploitation, as detailed in article 14.

Some consumer's associations and specialized lawyers contend that the current legislation allows file sharing (as with p2p networks) as this is not for profit and is for private use [6][7]. Additionally, the Penal Code explicitly requires the intention of commercial profit in order to commit a crime against the Intellectual Property


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> Yes, I saw it the second time round, but you can rest easy, I have no intention of downloading this.
> 
> However, you should be aware that it is not a criminal offence to download copyrighted material in Spain, it is only a criminal offence when you seek to acquire profit via said material.
> 
> ...



They contend its privet but in fact its still against your own law. US law states the same thing as this for the most part. But there is a big difference with all of this and Crysis 2. No one owns a legal copy of it except Crytek so anyone in possession of it is in fact in possession of stolen property. Second making of copy of owned media isn't in question. However if you never bought a legitimate copy thats whats in question.


----------



## pantherx12 (Feb 21, 2011)

btarunr said:


> Downloading a pirated copy is piracy. Just that in this case, the leaked build isn't a pirated copy. When you download the released version, you're indulging in piracy, and that's both ethically and legally wrong.




Legally wrong yeah, never say something is ethically wrong though, that's subjective.

So is morality.

Good/evil.


For example I don't find it ethically wrong at all, I'd have no problems going into a shop and making a copy of an item and walking out with my copy.
I'd have no problems walking to a car lot, and driving out with a copy of a car either. ( I have a magic copying machine in this universe)

Why I'd find it ethically wrong to copy something insubstanstial is just madness.

Yeah it can be dickish, yeah it's illegal.

But wrong? heh.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

erixx said:


> Why did you think I misunderstood what? Didn't you notice my irony? No problem: it was ironic



Ya gots me! I think I had a slow moment.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> They contend its privet but in fact its still against your own law. US law states the same thing as this for the most part. But there is a big difference with all of this and Crysis 2. No one owns a legal copy of it except Crytek so anyone in possession of it is in fact in possession of stolen property. Second making of copy of owned media isn't in question. However if you never bought a legitimate copy thats whats in question.



Firstly, it's Spanish law, not "my law". 

Secondly, they can go after those responsible for redistributing stolen property (the Crytek employee, more than likely with the full awareness of his or her superiors) but not against the individuals downloading this property, providing that I seek no profit through the downloaded material. Spanish law is quite clear in this regard so I can, in fact, download this without breaking the law or opening myself up to criminal charges.

The recently passed, and highly controversial, Sinde Law actually seeks to redress this situation, but it has not yet entered into force.


----------



## horik (Feb 21, 2011)

this will go nowhere,anyone has his own personal opinion,but if you want to stick to what the law says,that depends on the country you live in


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

horik said:


> this will go nowhere,anyone has his own personal opinion,but if you want to stick to what the law says,that depends on the country you live in



Precisely, which is why both the manner in which the question is worded in the OP and the poll are fatally flawed.


----------



## KainXS (Feb 21, 2011)

sure its illegal and laws are made to stop it, if you download and play that crysis 2 and get caught its probably worst than downloading a retail game because that game was leaked and is still in beta, you aren't supposed to have it(you have more access to their property/development tools with it), it even has copy protection(it wasn't enabled in the beta)

Why make a thread like this though, we all know its gonna head down the tracks with the flaming train of doom later anyway so why, you should already know downloading games is illegal.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

KainXS said:


> Why make a thread like this though, we all know its gonna head down the tracks with the flaming train of doom later anyway so why, you should already know downloading games is illegal.



Actually, the conversation has gone very well. I agree that one would have expected flamefests, infractions and a closed thread to ensue, but I guess the TPU crowd is more grown up than that.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> Firstly, it's Spanish law, not "my law".
> 
> Secondly, they can go after those responsible for redistributing stolen property (the Crytek employee, more than likely with the full awareness of his or her superiors) but not against the individuals downloading this property, providing that I seek no profit through the downloaded material. Spanish law is quite clear in this regard so I can, in fact, download this without breaking the law or opening myself up to criminal charges.
> 
> The recently passed, and highly controversial, Sinde Law actually seeks to redress this situation, but it has not yet entered into force.



Its not illegal to be in possession of stolen property in your nation?



pantherx12 said:


> Legally wrong yeah, never say something is ethically wrong though, that's subjective.
> 
> So is morality.
> 
> ...



So if you had a kid and someone molested it I guess thats subjective also? Thats a slippery slope you wanna go down. Excellent troll however. Kudos. You just got an invite to TA.


----------



## the54thvoid (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> Yes, I saw it the second time round, but you can rest easy, I have no intention of downloading this.
> 
> However, you should be aware that it is not a criminal offence to download copyrighted material in Spain, it is only a criminal offence when you seek to acquire profit via said material.
> 
> ...



You miss this bit?



> Computer programs
> 
> The special rules concerning computer programs are contained in Title VII of Book One: through successive modifications, they are now very close to the rules for other types of work. Article 96 gives a definition of "computer program", and reiterates the criteria for copyright protection: *the work is only protected to the extent that it is the author's own intellectual creation*, and the ideas and principles underlying any of the elements of the program, including those underlying its interfaces, are not protected by copyright (under certain circumstances, they may be protectable by patent law). An employer is assumed to have an exclusive grant of the rights of exploitation of computer programs written by employees in the course of their work (art. 97.4). *Article 100 lists the following specific limitations of the rights of exploitation of a computer program, insofar as the following are permitted:*
> 
> ...



This is pursuant to actually purchasing the 'software'.  Once purchased then you can copy it for your own use.

I think. 

But i give up on this thread, it'll start hurting my head and i'm not a freaking lawyer!!


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

the54thvoid said:


> You miss this bit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah thats exactly what I said. However don't disrupt this conversation with logic. It only incites flaming.


----------



## douglatins (Feb 21, 2011)

"Additionally, the Penal Code explicitly requires the intention of commercial profit in order to commit a crime against the Intellectual Property"

Ok then please who is getting comercial profit from playing this i really wanna know! LMFAO


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

douglatins said:


> "Additionally, the Penal Code explicitly requires the intention of commercial profit in order to commit a crime against the Intellectual Property"
> 
> Ok then please who is getting comercial profit from playing this i really wanna know! LMFAO



Only if you own it. Crysis 2 isn't owned by anyone except Crytek which makes it stolen property. What don't you understand?


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

the54thvoid said:


> You miss this bit?
> 
> This is pursuant to actually purchasing the 'software'.  Once purchased then you can copy it for your own use.
> 
> ...





TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah thats exactly what I said. However don't disrupt this conversation with logic. It only incites flaming.



No, this is not the case.

The recently introduced Sinde Law is proof enough that Spanish legislation is not in keeping with American interests, as it stands. However, at this point in time I can download anything I like (films, games, porn, beta versions) and I will not be subject to criminal prosecution, providing I do not seek profit thereof. Sorry if that upsets you, but that's the way it is.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> No, this is not the case.
> 
> The recently introduced Sinde Law is proof enough that Spanish legislation is not in keeping with American interests, as it stands. However, at this point in time I can download anything I like (films, games, porn, beta versions) and I will not be subject to criminal prosecution, providing I do not seek profit thereof. Sorry if that upsets you, but that's the way it is.



This is what your not getting. Unless its legal to own stolen property in your nation you are breaking the law.


----------



## johnnyfiive (Feb 21, 2011)

It is completely, 100%, illegal to download ANY game under development (in the U.S. at least). Unless it is a alpha or beta where you're given access granted by the *developers*(Crytek, not EA). Why anyone thinks downloading the leaked Crysis 2 is perfectly legal makes no sense to me. Pirating is pirating, there is no grey area here, its fricking illegal.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> This is what your not getting. Unless its legal to own stolen property in your nation you are breaking the law.



Again, it's Spain, not my nation and theft is an entirely different crime.

As someone who has been working for and within the Spanish judicial system for the last ten years, I feel that you are not willing to recognise the fact that anyone who downloads the leaked beta in Spain is not subject to criminal prosecution. Labels such as illegality matter little in such a context.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> Again, it's Spain, not my nation and theft is an entirely different crime.
> 
> As someone who has been working for and within the Spanish judicial system for the last ten years, I feel that you are not willing to recognise the fact that anyone who downloads the leaked beta in Spain is not subject to criminal prosecution. Labels such as illegality matter little in such a context.



Its the EXACT same crime.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its the EXACT same crime.



In a conversation in a bar, perhaps, but not in the eyes of the law, which is precisely what we are discussing: it is classified and sanctioned in an entirely different manner and I would suggest that this is the case in all legislations in all countries.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its the EXACT same crime.



- It's an infringement, not a crime
- It's not 'stolen' as I explained a while back, because the creator still has the original copy. It's just that, a copy. The 'stolen' concept comes from powerful vested interests trying to stitch up the ordinary man
- It really isn't a crime or illegal in Spain, which is why the USA is trying to bend them to their will


----------



## Over_Lord (Feb 21, 2011)

douglatins said:


> Ok then please who is getting comercial profit from playing this i really wanna know! LMFAO



not abt comm profit, it's abt the commercial loss that the producers are incurring because you're playing the pirated copy at home instead of buying and watching it


----------



## the54thvoid (Feb 21, 2011)

Okay, i just read about Sinde Law.  Slightly complex and to do with shutting down third party sites that offer 'free' downloads while advertising (and thus gaining revenue, making the site a profit making download site and then contravening Spanish not for profit download law.

McC is right.  Spain do have a 'legal' download policy as long as it is not for profit.  Sinde Law has been reported by Wikileaks to be drafted by the US Government as an excuse to shut down any site that 'might' be offering downloads.  At the moment in Spanish Law, if a site is to be questionned it must go through certain protracted steps (protecting Spanish freedom of culture laws).  Sinde Law would bypass this.

I have to say though, screw Spanish culture law.  _How on earth can it be fair_ that poeple can download games and music for free that artists, companies and designers have spent months or years working on?  Let's face it, without revenue we would have no music, no art and no games.

As Run DMC said, 'when's the last time that love bought your clothes?'



> - It's not 'stolen' as I explained a while back, because the creator still has the original copy. It's just that, a copy. The 'stolen' concept comes from powerful vested interests trying to stitch up the ordinary man



Bullshit.  As above, people, hundreds of people need to get paid to design and develop games.  Yes, cocksucking EA make money but the workers need to get paid by the money that games make.  If we all pirated, people lose jobs and businesses go bust.  This isn't Gene Rodenberry's commie utopia - this is a big nasty capitalist world and the keyboards we type on are bought by money we earn doing jobs.  If your income stream was destroyed by piracy - you'd be well pised.

But. back on topic - in Spain it's legal but for the rest I'd say that we're breachinhg IP as I can guarantee Crysis 2 is intellectual rights are owned by someone and downloading it for free does not compensate the owner who has not given their permission for it to be downloaded.

I knew i shoud have not come back to this thread.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

thunderising said:


> not abt comm profit, it's abt the commercial loss that the producers are incurring because you're playing the pirated copy at home instead of buying and watching it



That's just it, what commercial loss? Just because someone gets an illegal copy doesn't mean that they have lost a sale, does it? There's a good chance they wouldn't have bought the product anyway. It also helps drive interest in the product and can increase sales too if it's any good.

An excellent example of Black Ops. Pirated to hell and back, yet it's still making vast profits isn't it? You _cannot_ say that the profits would have been even greater without piracy.

It's this "every download is a lost sale" BS that the RIAA is perpetuating to justify their intimidation and extortion of people like you and me in the name of squeezing ever greater profits.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

the54thvoid said:


> Okay, i just read about Sinde Law.  Slightly complex and to do with shutting down third party sites that offer 'free' downloads while advertising (and thus gaining revenue, making the site a profit making download site and then contravening Spanish not for profit download law.
> 
> McC is right.  Spain do have a 'legal' download policy as long as it is not for profit.  Sinde Law has been reported by Wikileaks to be drafted by the US Government as an excuse to shut down any site that 'might' be offering downloads.  At the moment in Spanish Law, if a site is to be questionned it must go through certain protracted steps (protecting Spanish freedom of culture laws).  Sinde Law would bypass this.
> 
> ...



A short aside: 

Everbody who purchases a blank CD/DVD/tape etc pays a small surchage or "canon" to the SGAE for the purpose of offsetting any losses incurred by the "illegal" downloads. Interestingly, Brussels has recently called the legality of this surcharge into question as it brands us all as perpetrators without proof and is therefore unjust, in a similar manner to draconian DRM. Clearly it is not only Spain that is concerned about the ramifications of adopting legislation primarily designed to protect the interests of US corporations and often at the expense of the consumer.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

the54thvoid said:


> Bullshit.



No it isn't. See post 86, explains why.


----------



## erixx (Feb 21, 2011)

Nobody of us has downloaded this from Cryteks computers after breaking their security perimeter.... How did this become public? We don't know. Its on the public net now, for sure. 
Sharing is not a crime as of today when not getting a profit, here in Spain.
We need whole new laws and not just follow the media corps pseudochurch bandwagon.

Of course there are things that are BAD in this world, anyone cares about landmines or drinking water businessification maybe? To just name something that is 'a bit' more important.


----------



## the54thvoid (Feb 21, 2011)

qubit said:


> No it isn't. See post 86, explains why.



No, see my look of 'huffiness'. 

Piracy is wrong.  And yes - the RIAA is dick.

But on reflection - something i can do - the OP point, is it illegal to dl Crysis 2 leaked version - no.


----------



## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

the54thvoid said:


> No, see my look of 'huffiness'.
> 
> Piracy is wrong.  And yes - the RIAA is dick.
> 
> But on reflection - something i can do - the OP point, is it illegal to dl Crysis 2 leaked version - no.



You got a thanks just for the look of huffiness bit! Cracked me up, buddy. 

It _is_ illegal to download the leaked Crysis unfortunately though (not in Spain, if that's what you mean). As we all know, the law and what is actually right and wrong are rarely in sync.


----------



## Over_Lord (Feb 21, 2011)

qubit said:


> That's just it, what commercial loss? Just because someone gets an illegal copy *doesn't mean that they have lost a sale*, does it?



same way i can say they have lost a potential sale

see, if the game is a SP only, after enjoying the game, you ruddy hell ain't gonna buy it man..


----------



## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

This isn't aimed at anyone specific, just a generallity:

I'm not reading through all of these pages, but I will say this:

It doesn't matter what the laws are in your country.

The first time play you the game, It loads up and you are faced with an EULA screen.
You click "Accept".
This EULA supercedes ALL THE LAWS IN YOUR COUNTRY. Once you click accept, you agree to enter into a legally binding contract between you and the companies mentioned in the EULA.

I suggest you read through the WHOLE of the EULA before even posting here.
If you haven't read through the EULA, then you have no idea what you're even posting about.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> This isn't aimed at anyone specific, just a generallity:
> 
> I'm not reading through all of these pages, but I will say this:
> 
> ...



Beta's don't have EULA's.


----------



## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> Beta's don't have EULA's.



Have you played it? Because this one does...

After the intro loading screen. You click accept once and it doesn't ask you again.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> Have you played it? Because this one does...
> 
> After the intro loading screen. You click accept once and it doesn't ask you again.



No I haven't, because I haven't downloaded it and will not download it. Even if a EULA exists it relates to the finished commercial product and not the Beta. Moreover, how will they legally enforce it it I did download it, would they try to extradite me?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> Have you played it? Because this one does...
> 
> After the intro loading screen. You click accept once and it doesn't ask you again.



The logic is defining. Anyway everyone keeps dodging the fact this is stolen property which I find very amusing.


----------



## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

Mr McC said:


> No I haven't, because I haven't downloaded it and will not download it. Even if a EULA exists it relates to the finished commercial product and not the Beta. Moreover, how will they legally enforce it it I did download it, would they try to extradite me?



It's got nothing to do with downloading it, it's playing it that enters you into the contract. Whether the game is finished or not, the EULA covers it. Once you enter into a contract with ANY company in the world, you agree to "standunder" them.



TheMailMan78 said:


> The logic is defining. Anyway everyone keeps dodging the fact this is stolen property which I find very amusing.



I'm not avoiding it. I'm fully aware that it's not illegal, it's just a breach of contract between anyone playing it and Crytek. And it's worse that way.
It's not stolen property in every conutry, but it is a breach of contract in every conuntry.


----------



## cdawall (Feb 21, 2011)

is it illegal...EA is a big corp even if there is no legal precedents im sure EA lawyers could find some obscure law that has nothing to do with computers and charge you.

is it moral...this is up to the individual, i am buying the game so i see this as a try before you buy. Just like all the other beta's this one just isn't official


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

cdawall said:


> is it illegal...EA is a big corp even if there is no legal precedents im sure EA lawyers could find some obscure law that has nothing to do with computers and charge you.
> 
> is it moral...this is up to the individual, i am buying the game so i see this as a try before you buy. Just like all the other beta's this one just isn't official



Nothing obscure. You are breaking the law.


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## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

thunderising said:


> same way i can say they have lost a potential sale
> 
> see, if the game is a SP only, after enjoying the game, you ruddy hell ain't gonna buy it man..



A potential sale is not at all like an actual sale, so it really means nothing.

To take the RIAA's ridiculous every download is a lost sale argument to task, imagine the following scenario:

12 year old Johnny has downloaded 2000 songs off p2p networks. Using the RIAA's dodgy logic, our kid who has no money would have actually paid for all 2000 tracks! Clearly bollocks.

Now, imagine, an adult man or woman, say 30 years old and has a reasonable job. It still doesn't work.

A basic rule of economics states that the cheaper something is, the more it will sell. Therefore, there's gonna be hundreds of tracks on our downloader's collection that they'll have just because they could. They may not even like it. It's a bit obvious then, that those tracks cannot be lost sales.

And what of the ones they like? Yes, funnily enough our downloader is likely to buy those too (just look at how successful DRM-free iTunes is) especially if they want special edition CDs and such, plus it drives interest in the bands. This in turn tends to drive sales of gigs and merchandise. www.techdirt.com is really good at explaining all this.

Essentially, so-called "piracy" has a positive net effect on sales, not negative.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Nothing obscure. You are breaking the law.



That's where it gets confusing. Sometimes (depends on which country you're in) you're not breaking the law, but you're breaking a Statute. The Statute can be enforced upon, and given the "force of law", but it's not actually law. They can act upon your person using a statute, but only if you agree to it (through the means of the contract (EULA))

Our countries are very much the same when it comes to laws and statutes, Mailman. We speak English, our Police Officers speak "Legalese". You gotta learn the Legalese, as it's completely different.
Think of Laws as a thing of the past, Statutes are the new Wild Card.


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

It's not stealing, hence what they can file are civil lawsuits and not criminal charges.

Thus it's John Doe v. The One that Filed the Lawsuit, not John Doe v. The United States of America/some other country/or a US state (since all crimes are deemed "against" the State).


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> It's not stealing, hence what they can file are civil lawsuits and not criminal charges.
> 
> Thus it's John Doe v. The One that Filed the Lawsuit, not John Doe v. The United States of America/some other country/or a US state (since all crimes are deemed "against" the State).



How is it not stealing? You are taking something without paying for it?! I mean its not rape. Its surprise butt sex!


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil so far
I appreciate everyone's opinion and I think this is a "healthy" debate


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> That's where it gets confusing. Sometimes (depends on which country you're in) you're not breaking the law, but you're breaking a Statute. The Statute can be enforced upon, and given the "force of law", but it's not actually law. They can act upon your person using a statute, but only if you agree to it (through the means of the contract (EULA))
> 
> Our countries are very much the same when it comes to laws and statutes, Mailman. We speak English, our Police Officers speak "Legalese". You gotta learn the Legalese, as it's completely different.
> Think of Laws as a thing of the past, Statutes are the new Wild Card.



Again see WIPO.


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## qubit (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> How is it not stealing? You are taking something without paying for it?! I mean its not rape. Its surprise butt sex!



Because the creator still has their copy, as I've explained several times now. That's why the word _infringement_ was defined. It certainly is that.

Surprise butt sex - now that's funny!


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## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Again see WIPO.



What does that mean? Aah I see.


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> How is it not stealing? You are taking something without paying for it?! I mean its not rape. Its surprise butt sex!



Because it involves "dispute resolution...between individuals, business entities or non-profit organizations."

Lawsuits are brought about by "a plaintiff, a party who claims to have incurred loss as a result of a defendant's actions, demands a legal or equitable remedy."




			
				Larceny said:
			
		

> In the United States, larceny is a common law crime involving theft. Under the common law, larceny is the *trespassory taking (caption) and carrying away (asportation, removal) of the tangible personal property of another with the intent to deprive him or her of its possession permanently*.






			
				Elements of theft said:
			
		

> The _actus reus_ of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent t*o permanently deprive* the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use.
> 
> For example, if X goes to a restaurant and, by mistake, takes Y's scarf instead of her own, she has physically deprived Y of the use of the property (which is the _actus reus_) but the mistake prevents X from forming the _mens rea_ (i.e., because she believes that she is the owner, she is not dishonest and does not intend to deprive the "owner" of it) so no crime has been committed at this point. But if she realises the mistake when she gets home and could return the scarf to Y, she will steal the scarf if she dishonestly keeps it. Note that there may be civil liability for the torts of trespass to chattels or conversion in either eventuality.


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 21, 2011)

I like how everybody automatically becomes experts in every legal system in the world whenever this pops up.

Of course there are gray shades as to the legality of it, but there are none in the morality of it. You get something for free by pirating, how is that in anyway moral? Imagine being a developer and then finding out the game you've been painstakingly making gets leaked and pirated around the world. Soul destroying.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> Because it involves "dispute resolution...between individuals, business entities or non-profit organizations."
> 
> Lawsuits are brought about by "a plaintiff, a party who claims to have incurred loss as a result of a defendant's actions, demands a legal or equitable remedy."



I agree with you some, but I think you're making the common mistake - you're looking at definitions from an English Dictionary. You should be looking at definitions from Black's Book Of Law (or your country's variant) as words have completely different meanings to a real dictionary...


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> Of course there are gray shades as to the legality of it, but there are none in the morality of it. You get something for free by pirating, how is that in anyway moral? Imagine being a developer and then finding out the game you've been painstakingly making gets leaked and pirated around the world. Soul destroying.



Ah indeed. As I have mentioned already, the Catholic Church deemed the printing press a work of the devil and would destroy the livelihood of monks who painstakingly hand-copy books. 

OH NOES THE BIBLE IS GOING TO GET LEAKED TO EVERYONE!!! THE PRINTING PRESS WOULD BE DEPRIVING THE MONKS OF THEIR WORK!!! IT IS A WORK OF THE DEVIL!!! WE MUST DESTROY IT!!!

Remember that back then not a lot of people know how to read because there is no incentive to do so, as the supply of books is very small, and thus very expensive. With the advent of the printing press, supply is no longer that much of a problem, and this also coincided with further development of universities, as well as the basic education system of countries, which was now increasingly being taken over by the state from the Church.


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## GSquadron (Feb 21, 2011)

For me, it doesn't even interest that much. After all the game gets out it is illegal
Also, the leak is the mistake of Crytek. They did a wrong move
That is all my opinion, but also the leak is totally illegal
It is like some hackers make programs, but they don't use them, others do


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> I agree with you some, but I think you're making the common mistake - you're looking at definitions from an English Dictionary. You should be looking at definitions from Black's Book Of Law (or your country's variant) as words have completely different meanings to a real dictionary...



Nope, not a dictionary. I have the booklets of the Family Code of 1991, the Revised Penal Code and the Revised Labor Code here. All of which are *roughly* based on US laws, considering they were first created during their occupation of our country in the early 20th Century.


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> Ah indeed. As I have mentioned already, the Catholic Church deemed the printing press a work of the devil and would destroy the livelihood of monks who painstakingly hand-copy books.
> 
> OH NOES THE BIBLE IS GOING TO GET LEAKED TO EVERYONE!!! (Remember that back then not a lot of people know how to read because there is no incentive to do so, as the supply of books is very small, and thus very expensive).



What has that got to do with anything?


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> What has that got to do with anything?



No "grey shades" of morality you say, while in the example I mention the "authority in matters of morality" was the one that was "wrong."


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> No "grey shades" of morality you say, while in the example I mention the "authority in matters of morality" was the one that was "wrong."



So now please try and apply that to modern day examples. Don't worry I'll wait.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> Nope, not a dictionary. I have the booklets of the Family Code of 1991, the Revised Penal Code and the Revised Labor Code here. All of which are *roughly* based on US laws, considering they were first created during their occupation of our country in the early 20th Century.



Aah, you're using Civil Law.
If you can, get hold of the Corporation Code. Since you enter into a contract with Crytek when playing the game, this will be interesting. You'll find some words have completely different meanings.


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> Aah, you're using Civil Law.
> If you can, get hold of the Corporation Code. Since you enter into a contract with Crytek when playing the game, this will be interesting. You'll find some words have completely different meanings.



I'm looking for it, but no luck. At least the physical copy. Good thing there's the internet. I'm perusing the Intellectual Property Code of my country right now, as well as the Corporation Code and the Revised Penal Code.

From our RPC:
"Felonies are committed not only be means of deceit (dolo) but also by means of fault (culpa).

There is deceit when the act is performed with deliberate intent and there is fault when the wrongful act results from imprudence, negligence, lack of foresight, or lack of skill. "

As I have said, it's not stealing since there is now deliberate intent to deprive the owner, and in the case of this leak the fault lies with Crytek and not with whoever gets it, so it's not akin to "stealing", although yes it is possible to file lawsuits.


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> So now please try and apply that to modern day examples. Don't worry I'll wait.



Modern day example? Well, is there an OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now, one that is accepted and consented to by everyone, and thus there is a concrete "right-and-wrong" dichotomy?


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## scaminatrix (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> I'm looking for it, but no luck. At least the physical copy. Good thing there's the internet. I'm perusing the Intellectual Property Code of my country right now, as well as the Corporation Code and the Revised Penal Code.
> As I have said, it's not stealing since there is now deliberate intent to deprive the owner, and in the case of this leak the fault lies with Crytek and not with whoever gets it, so it's not akin to "stealing", although yes it is possible to file lawsuits.



Just goes to show - you may be able to avoid the LAW by being in a certain country, but no matter where you are, you have breached a contract by playing the game and can be dealt with however that corporation (Crytek) sees fit (take you to court and want money).


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> Modern day example? Well, is there an OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now, one that is accepted and consented to by everyone, and thus there is a concrete "right-and-wrong" dichotomy?



So no then, you can't think of a way in which piracy is moral.


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't have a copy of the Crysis 2 EULA, so I'll be basing this on the EULA for Crysis Warhead.

The EULA is operating under the assumption that you will be using the game, and therefore have to agree with the terms of the agreement.

However, in the case of the Crysis 2 leak, it is possible that there was no such agreement between Crytek and the one that "leaked" it, since it is possible that the individual neither downloaded, installed or used it at the start, and therefore unable to even agree to the EULA. 

Thus the ultimate source may not be culpable for not following terms he did not agree to. However it's the succeeding persons that may be subject to civil action because they did agree to the terms (since they were able to play).

It is interesting to see though that essentially this is merely "permission" for you to play (referring to a thread dealing with that here in TPU), as when Crysis Warhead is finally "pulled out of the market", the Licensee (the end-user) have no right to use the game in any manner, and shall immediately destroy all copies of the game.

Which therefore essentially nullifies the "stealing" argument, as the EULA itself is basically saying that the Licensee "never really had possession" of it, and since larceny/theft presupposes that the owner of the property is deprived of it, it would not apply here.


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## entropy13 (Feb 21, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> So no then, you can't think of a way in which piracy is moral.



Piracy can be argued as moral because there is no OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now.

Well actually ever since the first civilizations began.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> Piracy can be argued as moral because there is no OBJECTIVE, UNIVERSAL standard of morality right now.
> 
> Well actually ever since the first civilizations began.



Man I really wish the Philippines had something WORTH stealing. Anyway I gotta get back to work. Ill be back to destroy all arguments later.


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## garyinhere (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Man I really wish the Philippines had something WORTH stealing. Anyway I gotta get back to work. Ill be back to destroy all arguments later.



You may be working but you will keep an eye on this train looking for weakness. This train will get derailed by you i'm sure lol I'm surprised it's not locked by now


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## cdawall (Feb 21, 2011)

according to the crysis 1 eula



> 6. Term and Termination
> The term of this Agreement and the license granted herein begin on the date on which you first
> download, install, load or otherwise use CRYSIS and shall expire, without notice to you or any other
> notice, when CRYSIS is removed from the market.



when crysis is no longer on the market i can copy it as much as i want seeing how crysis 2 is NOT on the market...


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## Brandenburg (Feb 21, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> So no then, you can't think of a way in which piracy is moral.



id just like to point out that morality is irrelevant.. Morality is determined by SOCIETY so not every society will have the same code of what is perceived to be right and wrong...  HAD a huge debate on this a few years ago on a military gaming forum.. politics/religion sub forum..

In effect Society determines what is acceptable behavior (Morality)..


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

I'd like to add this bit posted in the Other Crysis 2 leak thread. 



ivicagmc said:


> If there no piracy I wouldn't need computer, since there is no way I could afford most of the software. Hell, only office and W7 worth more than my PC. Music, movies, etc... Without piracy most of my country, Serbia, would be in IT prehistory, because W7 costs as a hole month salary... Without piracy, there would be millions of computers less, and the biggest problem is that rich companies and their board of directors would be much, much richer than is today. Instead of their Lamborghini, they would ride in their private airplanes, and the one who have airplanes wound have their personal space ship...



You could almost say Piracy makes the world go round. Its not just your country that would suffer, but many other 2nd and 3rd world countries would as well. 

Even certain places in the Unites States would suffer if piracy did not exist at all. Corps are greedy, thats the bottom line. And while its easy to say don't support their stuff, sometimes we have no choice but to use it. (Office, Win7, etc..)

For education and poor schools piracy is a godsend.


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## erixx (Feb 21, 2011)

Scaminatrix is a beta and Mailman is an eula. Just joking. 

Now I am going to see the fall of Gadaffi, seriously better that ANY videogame!


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## TAViX (Feb 21, 2011)

not bored yet??


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## @RaXxaa@ (Feb 21, 2011)

My personal opinon is try before buy. And nobody will let u do that, And i should be able to test drive the car completely before buying instead of say see it on a poster


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## LittleLizard (Feb 21, 2011)

Things here in Uruguay are at least weird in piracy. I say it's illegal but EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY DOWNLOADS GAMES/MUSIC/MOVIES/OS/ETC illegally (even me sometimes [please dont ban me  ], so nobody cares. I'm trying to mend myself (buying games off steam & GOG) but piracy here is everywhere. I recall a meeting on software here 8 months ago where the one who opened said "We've to do something about pirated Windows, etc" and someone pointed out that the Copy of windows that was being used for the presentation had the "This copy of windows maybe illegal. Ask for windows original software." There have been schools closed for using piracy copys of windows when the microsoft of here checks and couldnt afford the fine.

In the end, going back on topic. It's totally illegal to download pirated software, no matter whether you've uploaded it or not.

EDIT: and yes, i used a thread open to talk about this to express my angry to my country's STUPID LAWS ON PIRACY.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

LittleLizard said:


> Things here in Uruguay are at least weird in piracy. I say it's illegal but EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY DOWNLOADS GAMES/MUSIC/MOVIES/OS/ETC illegally (even me sometimes [please dont ban me  ], so nobody cares. I'm trying to mend myself (buying games off steam & GOG) but piracy here is everywhere. I recall a meeting on software here 8 months ago where the one who opened said "We've to do something about pirated Windows, etc" and someone pointed out that the Copy of windows that was being used for the presentation had the "This copy of windows maybe illegal. Ask for windows original software." There have been schools closed for using piracy copys of windows when the microsoft of here checks and couldnt afford the fine.
> 
> In the end, going back on topic. It's totally illegal to download pirated software, no matter whether you've uploaded it or not.
> 
> EDIT: and yes, i used a thread open to talk about this to express my angry to my country's STUPID LAWS ON PIRACY.



Hey man no worries. The last time I was in Uruguay I can honestly say software piracy is the LEAST of your problems (Which reminds me I need to renew my passport). But something like video games is a luxury. Not a necessity like other things. Will windows feed your family in a third world nation (not Uruguay particularly but in general)? The answer is no. As a person who has been to some of these nations I can tell you not many people even have computers so their piracy isn't even substantial.

I'm talking about first world nations whos population is fooling themselves thinking this is legal or even right. For those who legitimately "need" windows but cannot afford it then have your bread. Enjoy and prosper. Downloading games is NEVER a need. There are treaties and such these nations have signed on too that they are breaking. When the law catches up there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'd like to add this bit posted in the Other Crysis 2 leak thread.
> 
> You could almost say Piracy makes the world go round. Its not just your country that would suffer, but many other 2nd and 3rd world countries would as well.
> 
> ...



I am not quite sure I understand your rationalization
So because corporations are greedy (in this instance Crytek and EA), it is okay to steal from them? 




@RaXxaa@ said:


> My personal opinon is try before buy. And nobody will let u do that, And i should be able to test drive the car completely before buying instead of say see it on a poster



Crytek has announced that a PC Beta will be available in March - this should allow you a "test" drive.


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## ShiBDiB (Feb 21, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Who cares if it's legal. I'm much more bothered by the thought of it being discussed on here period. Historically this doesn't go well on any tech forum.
> 
> Every single one of us has broken some law at some point, highly likely by choice, and probably continuing to do so now. Yet some stand around picking and choosing which ones they deem ok to break, and which are "wrong". Getting all moral-fag on people's asses because they personally think breaking law B is worse than law C. Well fudge you, there's plenty that would agree breaking law C is worse. Now that it's all flipped around they can be the victim of hollow moral scrutiny.
> 
> ...



this.. nothing good comes from us letting this take over the game section of the forum like it has..


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

ShiBDiB said:


> this.. nothing good comes from us letting this take over the game section of the forum like it has..



Yes because ignorance is a much safer route.


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## ShiBDiB (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yes because ignorance is a much safer route.



in terms of the site and not ur ego.. yes it is


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

ShiBDiB said:


> in terms of the site and not ur ego.. yes it is



 My ego has nothing to do with it. People staying ignorant of the damage they are causing is not a safer route on this site or anywhere else. Please this thread has remained civil so far. I may disagree with people on here but I have show no disrespect.

When you start to show disrespect its similar when you back an animal into a corner. They have no way out but to attack. Are you going to be that animal? Lets keep it civil.


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## beyond_amusia (Feb 21, 2011)

Hmm... It's only illegal if you get caught! =)
Is it ethical? Ah, there's the grey area...

EDIT: I do not endorse piracy or software sampling.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

beyond_amusia said:


> Hmm... It's only illegal if you get caught! =)
> Is it ethical? Ah, there's the grey area...
> 
> EDIT: I do not endorse piracy or software sampling.



Of course its not ethical. But thats not the debate.

However I see Benetanegia lurking. lol


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

HammerON said:


> I am not quite sure I understand your rationalization
> So because corporations are greedy (in this instance Crytek and EA), it is okay to steal from them?
> 
> 
> ...



Piracy as a whole, not just gaming. It was a response to the quote from the guy in Serbia. 

Believe it or not there are plenty of schools here in America that teach from books that were made in the 70's and 80's cause they can't afford modern day text books.  

Those schools benefit greatly from the ability to pirate, heck countries too.


Now of course education and entertainment are two different things this was to address the benefits of piracy in general.

Corps already use their money to influence the law to steal from us :/ 

Did you know Corporations that hire small business are starting to pay those small business in 60 days when the small business have to pay their workers in 30 days! It used to be 30 days for Corporations to but they get away with doing that.

Corporations got their wish and are treated as people, now they want to get rid of the the current limit they have when donating to political people. Soon (if not already) they will control the government. Money is power my friend and guess who has the money. 


So although this doesn't necessarily apply to Crytek or EA (Maybe) this leak is doing everything but hurting them.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Piracy as a whole, not just gaming. It was a response to the quote from the guy in Serbia.
> 
> Believe it or not there are plenty of schools here in America that teach from books that were made in the 70's and 80's cause they can't afford modern day text books.
> 
> ...



Oh cool so your like robin hood when you pirate software!? Really man? Really?

One day guys like me will hang up our Wacoms and easel and say screw it. If we can't feed our family with our trade then we ain't doing it. Then guess what. Welcome to the new dark age. Artists are already starving man. Now you want to justify stealing our work? Because thats what you are doing.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Oh cool so your like robin hood when you pirate software!? Really man? Really?
> 
> One day guys like me will hang up our Wacoms and easel and say screw it. If we can't feed our family with our trade then we ain't doing it. Then guess what. Welcome to the new dark age. Artists are already starving man. Now you want to justify stealing our work? Because thats what you are doing.



I'm an artiest and put my work up for free so call me what you want, doesn't bother me.

A big companyy like EA, Crytek, Valve with tons of people and tons of money behind them and huge popularity is nothing like you or me man. Your comparing an Apple with tanks here buddy.  

Btw, here is my music you can download for free bro. http://soundcloud.com/gerfeso

If you like it.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'm an artiest and put my work up for free so call me what you want, doesn't bother me.
> 
> A big companyy like EA, Crytek, Valve with tons of people and tons of money behind them and huge popularity is nothing like you or me man. Your comparing an Apple with tanks here buddy.
> 
> ...



Yeah but I am a PROFESSIONAL. I make money off of my art. My creativity costs money. Big companies pay me to be creative. When you steal from them you steal from me and people like me.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah but I am a PROFESSIONAL. I make money off of my art. My creativity costs money. Big companies pay me to be creative. When you steal from them you steal from me and people like me.



Well I doubt your professional work is being downloaded by the masses.

And if it were I doubt you'd be bitching.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Well I doubt your professional work in being downloaded by the masses.
> 
> And if it were I doubt you'd be bitching.



 Ever seen the Super bowl? This thread isn't about me. If it were you would be very surprised. I can pretty much say with confidence everyone on this forum has seen my work at one time or another and yeah, I don't want you stealing it or copying it.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ever seen the Super bowl? This thread isn't about me. If it were you would be very surprised. I can pretty much say with confidence everyone on this forum has seen my work at one time or another and yeah, I don't want you stealing it or copying it.



Don't worry, you can be rest assured I won't. Ever


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## beyond_amusia (Feb 21, 2011)

Well, in all fairness, most people who can afford kick ass computers, great laptops, game systems with all the accessories and the newest 3D TVs usually don't pirate anything beyond music (and those people usually buy their music on iTunes anyway). Piracy IS a problem, but it's not like a majority of people are lined up to grab a torrent and run with it. (Most people don't even know how to use torrents anyway, which I think is good.)

And to the people who buy 4 $800 graphics cards, fry them via modifying, then come here crying about how it'll be 3 days before the replacements arrive, you have no biz pirating anything.

Poor people, I can understand that they would pirate software either because they are not very educated with tech or simply cannot afford $60 for a video game (and really, it DOES seem to take a long time for those prices to come down!). Poor people can have nice computers too, either through hard work, gifts or luck - so, I don't assume that people with the latest things are spoiled. They may be lucky enough to have nice things, but still cannot afford new games.

I'm not excusing them, just saying that some people have more of an excuse to download Fallout New Vegas than others. It doesn't make it right, but it's really the only way they'll be able to play video games until the price on a given title falls, which can take a while (Diablo 2 is still $40 for example, while The Sims 3 can be had for around $20).

I am poor, but don't download games illegally anymore. It's just too much hassle, and not worth the security risks and fines if I was caught. I have my software through luck and circumstance. There are games I'd love to buy, but I cannot justify $60 for a game, so I have to wait over a year for the core version to go on sale at Walmart for $20ish.

Now, regarding games that are not even released yet - I think it's wrong to download them. If you can afford the game, buy it on launch day. If you can't afford it, pick up a used copy like I usually do.

The solution to piracy I think is to charge less for the digital version of the game. Rape people on the collector's sets, but cut some $ off for people who only want to buy a digital copy. People will still steal, but it'd reduce some piracy for sure.


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## beyond_amusia (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> I'm an artiest and put my work up for free so call me what you want, doesn't bother me.
> 
> A big companyy like EA, Crytek, Valve with tons of people and tons of money behind them and huge popularity is nothing like you or me man. Your comparing an Apple with tanks here buddy.
> 
> ...



ahaha, I give mine away too! 

Fck the record labels, they are greedy! 

EDIT: By greedy, I mean the artists don't get much off record sales - Buy from the artist directly whenever possible!


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> Don't worry, you can be rest assured I won't. Ever



Yeah....well its in your signature


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> This EULA supercedes ALL THE LAWS IN YOUR COUNTRY. Once you click accept, you agree to enter into a legally binding contract between you and the companies mentioned in the EULA.


EULAs only became legally binding in the USA in 2010, and only in the 9th circuit. (source)

Besides that many legal observers agree that it contradicts previous judgments and will eventually be over turned by the Supreme Court.  To say that EULAs supersede the laws of the USA would be inaccurate.


the54thvoid said:


> This isn't Gene Rodenberry's commie utopia - this is a big nasty capitalist world and the keyboards we type on are bought by money we earn doing jobs.


LOL.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 21, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah....well its in your signature



How did you sneak that in there! Great trick! 

Great work too ! 

Now to keep my promise 

I'm off to work now...


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## beyond_amusia (Feb 21, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> EULAs only became legally binding in the USA in 2010, and only in the 9th circuit. (source)
> 
> Besides that many legal observers agree that it contradicts previous judgments and will eventually be over turned by the Supreme Court.  To say that EULAs supersede the laws of the USA would be inaccurate.



Maybe... A justice appointed by a Democrat will be more likely to rule that EULAs are not 'law' than one appointed by a conservative. (taking political science in college  )


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 21, 2011)

beyond_amusia said:


> Maybe... A justice appointed by a Democrat will be more likely to rule that EULAs are not 'law' than one appointed by a conservative. (taking political science in college  )



EULA is no where near as powerful as copyright law and treaties anyway. Let them rule.



AphexDreamer said:


> How did you sneak that in there! Great trick!
> 
> Great work too !
> 
> ...



Aww you didnt have to do that.


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## beyond_amusia (Feb 21, 2011)

Isn't kinda scary knowing that at any time Apple, Microsoft, ect can just disable operating systems, software and devices on a whim? I mean, since we don't own the software outright (and the software ON the devices), but are licencing it... Now, they would never do that, but still, just knowing that they could if they really wanted to... *unplugs the interwebs from the laptop* ahaha
It would be interesting to see it happen in theory, but who ever did it would be sued into non-existence, and then some. And of course someone would release a patch to get us all back up and running.

EDIT: Well, they DO do it, but not in mass amounts that would inspire a revolt.


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## HammerON (Feb 21, 2011)

Please let's not stray too far off topic (legal or not legal)


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## qubit (Feb 22, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ever seen the Super bowl? This thread isn't about me. If it were you would be very surprised. I can pretty much say with confidence everyone on this forum has seen my work at one time or another and yeah, I don't want you stealing it or copying it.



So what on earth do you do? Now you've got my curiosity piqued!


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## DaveK (Feb 22, 2011)

If you're going to buy it I don't see a problem with downloading it early. If you're never gonna buy it I also don't see a problem, they wouldn't lose out on money from someone downloading it if they aren't a customer in the first place.

Downloading it just to save yourself money, on the other hand, is a totally different story.


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## Aceman.au (Feb 22, 2011)

It isn't legal

BUT

It's the developers fault for letting leaks like this happen and when full games get pirated there's really nothing you can do about it as the internet is massive and a lot of people will download pirated games.

I don't think it would be worth it/possible to imprison every single person who has pirated on the Earth for pirating. (Say that 5 times real fast)

THe companies have to make MP games if they want to make a profit, because to play multiplayer you need to buy a game from a store with an authentication key to play online. That's one thing they can hold on to.

But then comes cracked servers.

There will be no end to piracy unless the internet dies (won't happen) or all technology suddenly stops like in the end of the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still"

Go download it if you haven't seen... Oh wait.


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## AsRock (Feb 22, 2011)

not legal,  and if the bete is installable will it not have some kind of agreement when you install it anyways ?.  All beta's i have tried have done although with this being leaked might be different but at a guess there be some kind of one at least.

And no i don't know if it does as i don't pirate peoples hard work.


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## Mussels (Feb 22, 2011)

AsRock said:


> not legal,  and if the bete is installable will it not have some kind of agreement when you install it anyways ?.  All beta's i have tried have done although with this being leaked might be different but at a guess there be some kind of one at least.
> 
> And no i don't know if it does as i don't pirate peoples hard work.



the beta is not installable, it runs straight from an exe.

if you got a repacked version (not from the initial leak) the eula is accepted by that person and doesnt show up on other systems (from what i've been told, havent personally verified that)


so there is situations where you can run the game without seeing the EULA


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## cdawall (Feb 22, 2011)

Mussels said:


> the beta is not installable, it runs straight from an exe.
> 
> if you got a repacked version (not from the initial leak) the eula is accepted by that person and doesnt show up on other systems (from what i've been told, havent personally verified that)
> 
> ...



there is no EULA included in a .txt file either there is no accepting anything the game is click on exe and play.


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## LittleLizard (Feb 22, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Hey man no worries. The last time I was in Uruguay I can honestly say software piracy is the LEAST of your problems (Which reminds me I need to renew my passport). But something like video games is a luxury. Not a necessity like other things. Will windows feed your family in a third world nation (not Uruguay particularly but in general)? The answer is no. As a person who has been to some of these nations I can tell you not many people even have computers so their piracy isn't even substantial.
> 
> I'm talking about first world nations whos population is fooling themselves thinking this is legal or even right. For those who legitimately "need" windows but cannot afford it then have your bread. Enjoy and prosper. Downloading games is NEVER a need. There are treaties and such these nations have signed on too that they are breaking. When the law catches up there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



You've just launched my modesty to the skies. . And yes, piracy is the LEAST of our problems by far (which happens when your country is being govern by as******. Still, from an OBJECTIVE point of view, yes, i consider it illegal, just for the record.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

cdawall said:


> there is no EULA included in a .txt file either there is no accepting anything the game is click on exe and play.



There is, the first time you play the game. For proof, move the contents of
C:\Users\*your username*\Saved Games\Crysis2
to the desktop and play the game. It will think it's the first time you are playing, and will show you this screen.
I got deja vu


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## cdawall (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> There is, the first time you play the game. For proof, move the contents of
> C:\Users\*your username*\Saved Games\Crysis2
> to the desktop and play the game. It will think it's the first time you are playing, and will show you this screenshot.
> 
> I got deja vu






> 6. Term and Termination
> The term of this Agreement and the license granted herein begin on the date on which you first
> download, install, load or otherwise use CRYSIS and *shall expire, without notice to you or any other
> notice, when CRYSIS is removed from the market.*



crysis 2 is not on the market EULA is null


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

cdawall said:


> crysis 2 is not on the market EULA is null



That wording is not sufficient to cover pre-release. Read the rest of it. If you understand the legal terms, you will be shocked.

Let's break down a couple of pieces (see attachments):

1. We will do anything the law allows us to do to seek compensation. (Statute/Civil law, not Common/Natural law).

2. Money is not good enough for us, to fully compensate us, we can impose an Injuction on you and really wreck your life.

3. If any part of this agreement is found to be invalid (i.e. if someone argues: "it's not a finished product so the agreement doesn't apply"), then the agreement still stands, as you agree to it.

In the attachment with no number, it says that you agree to allow them to take you to Germany to deal with you if you breach the agreement.


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## wolf (Feb 22, 2011)

so what if you downloaded a savegame from the get go, and never actually had to click "acccept"... assuming you could proove it.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

wolf said:


> so what if you downloaded a savegame from the get go, and never actually had to click "acccept"... assuming you could proove it.



That's covered in number 3. "If any part of this agreement is invalid due to legal or factual reasons, then the agreement is still valid." They've covered the lot the sneaky bar stewards.


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## wolf (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> That's covered in number 3. "If any part of this agreement is invalid due to legal or factual reasons, then the agreement is still valid." They've covered the lot the sneaky bar stewards.



thats what the agreement is all about I guess... but srsly they at least deserve to catch the guy that leaked/uploaded it in the first place. 

I'd hazard they could at least cover the potential sale losses by sueing the pants off him... or her.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

wolf said:


> thats what the agreement is all about I guess... but srsly they at least deserve to catch the guy that leaked/uploaded it in the first place.
> 
> I'd hazard they could at least cover the potential sale losses by sueing the pants off him... or her.



Yea, but I think the worst part is the injuction. It means they reserve the right to ban you from something. What are they planning on? Are they thinking of going to court and saying "He got it from the net. Lifetime internet injuction on his ass.."?


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## cdawall (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> That wording is not sufficient to cover pre-release. Read the rest of it. If you understand the legal terms, you will be shocked.
> 
> Let's break down a couple of pieces (see attachments):
> 
> ...



how are they getting my to germany the US is not going to extradite me to Germany over something like this for one i didn't violate any US laws.


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## wolf (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> "He got it from the net. Lifetime internet injuction on his ass.."?



 don't even joke about something like that man!

injunction = you just got effed in the a.


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## entropy13 (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> Yea, but I think the worst part is the injuction. It means they reserve the right to ban you from something. What are they planning on? Are they thinking of going to court and saying "He got it from the net. Lifetime internet injuction on his ass.."?



They also say in the EULA that "monetary compensation is not enough." Not, "may not be enough", "is not enough." That's how sure they are.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

entropy13 said:


> They also say in the EULA that "monetary compensation is not enough." Not, "may not be enough", "is not enough." That's how sure they are.



Scary isn't it? Well, almost


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## entropy13 (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> Scary isn't it? Well, almost



"...entitled to an *injunctive order*, in addition to *all other remedies available including a monetary award* to prohibit such unauthorized use." (emphasis mine)

Don't forget that this is because they have been "irreparably damaged" by these acts.




If they truly were irreparably damaged they shouldn't have been able to make Crysis 2 in the first place.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

cdawall said:


> how are they getting my to germany the US is not going to extradite me to Germany over something like this for one i didn't violate any US laws.



Ah, but it's not to do with US laws. It's a contract that you entered into. It supercedes common law and takes you into the realms of statute law.
You will be SUMMONED to German court (in Legalese, SUMMONS in all caps means invite). If you don't attend, a judgement will be made in your absence and you will lose, and you will be dealt with under German Statute law (where they can impose an injuction even in your absence).

EDIT:
Just realised I voted wrong!!! I voted for it being illegal!!!
To set the record straight; IMO it's NOT ILLEGAL, but against the rules you agree to so can still be taken to court.

Another thing I wanted to say, don't take anything I say at face value, consider me a zero post bs-er. Look it up, and learn the difference between Common/Natural law (which applies to YOU) and Civil/Statute law (which apply to your PERSON, your LEGAL STATUS, where they can do nasty things to you) and contracts (like when a Police Officer asks for your name and address and you give it, like this Crysis case, it's an agreement that takes you into a legally binding contract).

Don't trust me just because my words look or sound good, research everything I say and you'll see how we're being shafted by Statues...


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## streetfighter 2 (Feb 22, 2011)

As I stated earlier, a EULA is not necessarily legally binding (unless you're in the 9th circuit) in the USA.  The EULA may stipulate any terms it wants but if it violates any other extant rights or processes in the USA then those components can be brought to trial.  If it were legally binding it would be called a "contract" and would require notarization (and still be subject to due process).  EDIT: After further review it is a form of contract, but still subject to dispute/trial, and may lose contract status.

In this particular case the license is superfluous and the author's copyright is clearly asserted.  Extradition rights are unfounded and completely irrational though the possibility of injunctive relief is undeniable.

If the ACTA passes I'm sure extradition, anal rape and torture will be perfectly legal when a suspect is accused of the most heinous of crimes, stealing software.


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## scaminatrix (Feb 22, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> As I stated earlier, a EULA is not necessarily legally binding (unless you're in the 9th circuit) in the USA.  The EULA may stipulate any terms it wants but if it violates any other extant rights or processes in the USA then those components can be brought to trial.  If it were legally binding it would be called a "contract" and would require notarization (and still be subject to due process).  EDIT: After further review it is a form of contract, but still subject to dispute/trial, and may lose contract status.



IMO the way they get away with that is by saying "by accepting below, you agree to be *bound* by the terms and conditions of this agreement" (in all caps). Since it's in all caps, you can assume it's in Legalese, so I wouldn't chance it in court with the word bound in there.



streetfighter 2 said:


> In this particular case the license is superfluous and the author's copyright is clearly asserted.  Extradition rights are unfounded and completely irrational though the possibility of injunctive relief is undeniable.
> If the ACTA passes I'm sure extradition, anal rape and torture will be perfectly legal when a suspect is accused of the most heinous of crimes, stealing software.



Stealing software *is* the worst crime posible, isn't it?


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## n-ster (Feb 22, 2011)

scaminatrix said:


> IMO the way they get away with that is by saying "by accepting below, you agree to be *bound* by the terms and conditions of this agreement" (in all caps). Since it's in all caps, you can assume it's in Legalese, so I wouldn't chance it in court with the word bound in there.
> 
> 
> 
> Stealing software *is* the worst crime posible, isn't it?



Stealing the Pentagon's firewall would probably be "launch nuclear missile" worthy


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## erocker (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't understand why people feel they need to define _themselves_ by the laws of their country?


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## KainXS (Feb 22, 2011)

depends on where you live i guess not all countries are as hard as well . . . . . france on piracy

were in the middle here in the us if canada and spain are the best places if you wanna pirate.

The saddest thing now are that they're are lawyers suing people now by sitting on torrents and sending out letters blindly saying pay us or we'll sue you and the copyright owners don't see a penny of it, like what was in the news like a month ago with that douche in the uk, a big scam with both sides getting screwed.


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## mjkmike (Feb 22, 2011)

This is TPU!  Grow Up and pay the price.


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## Mussels (Feb 22, 2011)

mjkmike said:


> This is TPU!  Grow Up and pay the price.



what price?


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## mjkmike (Feb 22, 2011)

The price you pay.  If from the store or from you're soul.


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## Mussels (Feb 22, 2011)

mjkmike said:


> The price you pay.  If from the store or from you're soul.



well, i'll pay the price for the beta: nothing. since i cant buy it if i wanted to.

as for the soul aspect, well, i dont buy into that religious crap. so again, a sale price of zero. i'll pay that, gladly.


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## DaveK (Feb 22, 2011)

Mussels said:


> well, i'll pay the price for the beta: nothing. since i cant buy it if i wanted to.
> 
> as for the soul aspect, well, i dont buy into that religious crap. so again, a sale price of zero. i'll pay that, gladly.



Word.


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## johnspack (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm very poor,  and even I won't dl this.  It's obvious why this alpha was leaked.  You can't buy PR like this.  Boy did they get you all!


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## phobias23 (Feb 22, 2011)

from my point of view is illegal. plus this will overcome like a pain in the ass for all pc gamers.
Including those who support piracy, cuz EA maybe is thinking in cut most of the games that they produce release it for PC,btter anticraking and more f...... ideas. The only thing that remains for this is that Crysis 2 leak is to CRY!!! its full of bugs (AI/Loadings/graphics options/Phyxs).
Its better to support the companies cuz they are the ones who make those games,
then if you like download the cracked version, but dont fuck with them cuz at the end they fuck you!!!


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## Mr McC (Feb 22, 2011)

phobias23 said:


> from my point of view is illegal. plus this will overcome like a pain in the ass for all pc gamers.
> Including those who support piracy, cuz EA maybe is thinking in cut most of the games that they produce release it for PC,btter anticraking and more f...... ideas. The only thing that remains for this is that Crysis 2 leak is to CRY!!! its full of bugs (AI/Loadings/graphics options/Phyxs).
> Its better to support the companies cuz they are the ones who make those games,
> then if you like download the cracked version, but dont fuck with them cuz at the end the fuck you!!!



I believe that this was intentionally leaked. However, I also believe you are correct to an extent: EA will indoubtedly use the download figures for the beta they intentionally leaked to bemoan the rampant piracy within pc gaming, calling for higher prices and more strigent DRM to offset the detriment occasioned to them. I don't blame the pirates when a company decides to take action that hurts its paying customers, I blame the companies.


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## jpierce55 (Feb 22, 2011)

It is very wrong. I hate piracy. You get songs/software for free..... and when you do you hurt all the honest people. The companies are not going to take a loss, they are going to put that loss on the honest customers. They also implement obnoxious security devices. How many games did securom screw up. Now you have companies requiring to to register online, or even be online to play. Some people have a problem with that, even if all don't, and some minority won't buy the games..... again that equals problems for the honest customers.


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## Mr McC (Feb 22, 2011)

jpierce55 said:


> It is very wrong. I hate piracy. You get songs/software for free..... and when you do you hurt all the honest people. The companies are not going to take a loss, they are going to put that loss on the honest customers. They also implement obnoxious security devices. How many games did securom screw up. Now you have companies requiring to to register online, or even be online to play. Some people have a problem with that, even if all don't, and some minority won't buy the games..... again that equals problems for the honest customers.



What loss? Any games or songs downloaded without payment do not, under any circumstances, equate to a lost sale. Therein lies the fallacy of their argument.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 16, 2011)

Personally, i have no problem with people who cant afford to buy a game playing a copy. People who can afford it should buy it.

Me personally, i dont like to waste money, so i will "try a game" if i like it, i will buy it,if i dont,i wont, and i wont play the trial copy either so the company loses nothing.


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## ChewyBrownSuga (Apr 16, 2011)

tigger said:


> Personally, i have no problem with people who cant afford to buy a game playing a copy. People who can afford it should buy it.
> 
> Me personally, i dont like to waste money, so i will "try a game" if i like it, i will buy it,if i dont,i wont, and i wont play the trial copy either so the company loses nothing.



personally, I do have a problem with people downloading and playing a game without paying. Gaming is a luxury and not a necessity, if someone steals a loaf of bread because they can't afford to eat, then I could understand where you're coming from. Why should I use my money to when other people aren't able or unwilling to?




Mr McC said:


> What loss? Any games or songs downloaded without payment do not, under any circumstances, equate to a lost sale. Therein lies the fallacy of their argument.



I agree with you on the part with that a game or song download doesn't not equal a loss in sales. I've download games that I've lost the discs to but still have the activation codes to.
But lets be truthful if you download a new game the chances are that you have not payed for it and have not interest in paying for it.  If you have not payed for something then you do not deserve it.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Apr 16, 2011)

I accept your opinion, but this is totally down to each persons morals and how honest they are on forums, people can say anything they want and protract any opinion they want on a forum.


I accept other peoples opinions but its not going to change mine. I was being honest,  and this thread seems to be to post your opinion and not to judge others for theirs.


Plus it is human nature to take something for free whether it is needed or not. Anyone who says they have never commited a crime is either a bullshitter or a religous nut.


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## Kreij (Apr 16, 2011)

This thread IS about opinions.
Here is mine ...
After almost 200 posts, once again the debate on whether downloading software without paying for it, for whatever reason, will never be resolved in a forum discussion.

Let's move on.


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