# ZOTAC GeForce GTX 465



## W1zzard (May 26, 2010)

Today NVIDIA releases their new GeForce GTX 465. The cards are based on the same GF100 Fermi GPU as the GTX 470 and GTX 480. In order to create this $279 product, NVIDIA has disabled a large number of units inside the GF100. Did they do it right? What about power consumption and heat?

*Show full review*


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## Yellow&Nerdy? (May 31, 2010)

Yet again a card, that's performance about matches ATI, but has bigger power consumption. Should of matched the 5850 to be an attractive option. My point is: GF100-architecture is way too hot and too power hungry, wait for GF104, or go for ATI.


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## Mussels (May 31, 2010)

seems weird it comes with mini HDMI, so few devices use that as an input.

btw, typo









overall power consumption of this card is quite acceptable, compared to the other fermi variants.

performance seems decent too, matching a 275/280... pity about performance per watt/dollar


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## btarunr (May 31, 2010)

Mussels said:


> seems weird it comes with mini HDMI, so few devices use that as an input.



Did you see the "packaging and contents" section? It includes a mini-HDMI to HDMI dongle. They've used mini-HDMI to save space.


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## v12dock (May 31, 2010)

I do not think I will be picking this card up


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## Cuzza (May 31, 2010)

Thanks W1zz, quality review as always. Hmmm, better than I had expected, but I would rather splash out a bit extra for the 5850. That power draw is too much for me but I guess this card would be pretty good if you had a good WC setup to go with it. Would like to see these in SLI


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## HalfAHertz (May 31, 2010)

Well it ain't no 5830, but I feel like the performance is a bit lackluster for the price.


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## Mussels (May 31, 2010)

btarunr said:


> Did you see the "packaging and contents" section? It includes a mini-HDMI to HDMI dongle. They've used mini-HDMI to save space.



looked like it had enough space to me, that adaptor would just be weighed down and potentially break/damage the socket.


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## btarunr (May 31, 2010)

Mussels said:


> looked like it had enough space to me, that adaptor would just be weighed down and potentially break/damage the socket.



No, NVIDIA obviously thought that through before designing it that way for its top of the line series. Every GTX 400 card has mini-HDMI, and ships with that dongle.

And no, with two DVI ports, there won't be enough space for HDMI. There's no graphics card that has two DVI and HDMI in the same expansion bracket, and NVIDIA wouldn't want to intrude into the crucial hot air vent.


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## Mussels (May 31, 2010)

btarunr said:


> No, NVIDIA obviously thought that through before designing it that way for its top of the line series. Every GTX 400 card has mini-HDMI, and ships with that dongle.
> 
> And no, with two DVI ports, there won't be enough space for HDMI. There's no graphics card that has two DVI and HDMI in the same expansion bracket, and NVIDIA wouldn't want to intrude into the crucial hot air vent.



oh i'm sure they had reason for it, i'm just opposed to adaptors like that. you should see how bent my HDMI-> DVI adaptor is, due to the weight of a cable over two weeks... i'm just glad its the adaptor that bent, and not the HDMI socket.

I would have chosen one HDMI, one DVI, and one DP. Would have fit easier, not required weird adaptors, and supported the major connection options for years to come.


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## crow1001 (May 31, 2010)

Nice review, still the 465 is a POS in Europe if it hits at the price point we think it is, you can get a 5830 for £160 now in the UK.


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## alwayssts (May 31, 2010)

Yellow&Nerdy? said:


> *wait for GF104, or go for ATI.*



I really think that should of essentially been the summary, but I respectfully accept there's politics involved in the act of being a reviewer.   

I know everyone hates that guy that says "wait for the next thing" but both GF104 in it's 336sp/192-bit (assuming 24 ROP, 56 TMUs) GTX460 iteration or Barts (The 256-bit Juniper replacement I think many of us expect to be 960sp) are going to be upon us soon.  The 460 likely quicker than Barts.  Either one should match the performance of this part, and require under 150W.  GTX460 has a stated (rumored, but likely true) TDP of 130W.   I'm assuming Barts will be similar, and that isn't hard to believe if it's around RV670 size.

Link to relevant articles:

GTX460 (GF104)
Notice GF104's pcb is set up for 256-bit/1GB, and there are 16 shader blocks.  336sp/192-bit implies two of those are turned off...Grail part coming to replace GTX470?  (Not to mention that in a x2 config 490...)


Southern Islands (Caicos, Turks, Barts, Cayman, Antilles)

I think the dates may be a little off (I'm thinking family launch in Q4), and I don't know if I agree Cayman is 384-bit, as 512-bit makes more sense, but there certainly is enough relevant info there to help decide if making a purchase now is a good idea.


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## Blacklash (May 31, 2010)

If you're in the US spend 10 more usd and get that-

HIS H585FN1GD Radeon HD 5850 (Cypress Pro) 1GB 256...


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## Paintface (May 31, 2010)

even my 4890 is faster


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## HillBeast (May 31, 2010)

I knew it wasn't going to be good when they announced it. How is this even remotely in the same league as the 5850? Well done NVIDIA. You've proven yet again that Fermi is a flop.

One note though, I'm thinking you may need to raise your standards of GPUs W1zz. Sorry but every review I've seen lately from you has been TPU Recommended and it really is making it hard to tell whether it really is the best in it's field.


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## DriedFrogPills (May 31, 2010)

as for it being recommended when it doesn't compete against the 5850 well, I would recommend the gtx465 still because from the looks of it at 1920x1200 its still delivering playable frame rates, if it didn't deliver those type of rates then it would not have been recommended


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## wahdangun (May 31, 2010)

great review always

btw wizz why u still use COD4 for OC comparison? it's old and not so demanding game

i suggest u change it to  BF:BC2 or other more demanding game


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## douglatins (May 31, 2010)

I was stupid to see this review first: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/revie...tx-465-graphics-card-review-introduction.html
The card showed a lot worse results than the 5850 and even sometimes worse than a GTX285 and they still recommend the card. ROFL.
Wiz review FTW


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## qubit (May 31, 2010)

So, it costs about the same as my GTX 285, but gives noticeably less performance? I'll pass.

Looks like the GTX 470 is equivalent to mine on performance, so I'd be replacing my 285 solely for DX11 capability that won't be relevant for ages. I'll pass again. It looks like I'll be hanging on to my 285 for some time to come then and will be getting very good value out of it.

I'll bet the die-shrunk GTX 480 (with 512 shaders?) will be interesting and might be good enough to part my wallet from its cash.


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## NdMk2o1o (May 31, 2010)

Wow this looks like a big fail imo, price/perf is terrible, heck even the 4890 was on par with it in most of the tests and can be had for at least £100 cheaper. 

I really dont see the value in the fermi lineup, and thats true with both the 470 and 480 also. where the hell is the mid / low range aswell? Oh yea I forgot they are still trtying to get rid of all there last gen cards and rebadges so if you want a low or mid card then you can have an ATI 5 series or a rebadge/2** series from NV

NV really need to pull it out of the bag with their next lineup cause if they dont I wont be buying an NV card anytime soon.


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## dr emulator (madmax) (May 31, 2010)

Mussels said:


> oh i'm sure they had reason for it, i'm just opposed to adaptors like that. you should see how bent my HDMI-> DVI adaptor is, due to the weight of a cable over two weeks... i'm just glad its the adaptor that bent, and not the HDMI socket.
> 
> I would have chosen one HDMI, one DVI, and one DP. Would have fit easier, not required weird adaptors, and supported the major connection options for years to come.



i had a similar problem with my old ti 4600 which broke the video in /out dongle
(had to send it back ) so when i got my new card i used a a slightly longer case screw and a piece of strong string to hold the wire 
worked a treat

oh nice review as always


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## douglatins (May 31, 2010)

Ive been checking some reviews, like Guru3D and they say how awesome SLI scaling is, though a single and and SLId 465 loses almost always to a 5850 and CF. I mean, who are they trying to fool?
Their conclusions seem to be way of their results. Performance, Noise, Temps, Power Consumption.


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

NdMk2o1o said:


> Wow this looks like a big fail imo, price/perf is terrible, heck even the 4890 was on par with it in most of the tests and can be had for at least £100 cheaper.
> 
> I really dont see the value in the fermi lineup, and thats true with both the 470 and 480 also. where the hell is the mid / low range aswell? Oh yea I forgot they are still trtying to get rid of all there last gen cards and rebadges so if you want a low or mid card then you can have an ATI 5 series or a rebadge/2** series from NV
> 
> NV really need to pull it out of the bag with their next lineup cause if they dont I wont be buying an NV card anytime soon.



Nonsense this was said about the 200 gtx series as well. Prices will drop to the 200 range, drivers will be optimized and it will turn out to be a decent mid range card, watch and see. This power consumption issue is bs, the card down-clocks when not gaming, so unless you game 24/7 it's not a issue, thats a hand job fee good promotion, by the green movement. This card is overpriced but if it came in at 200 no one would blink. However, the 400 gtx series is hardly a flop. The 5800 series is more efficient power wise but no one cares unless it is running at top speed 24/7 which it isn't.


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## Mussels (May 31, 2010)

douglatins said:


> Ive been checking some reviews, like Guru3D and they say how awesome SLI scaling is, though a single and and SLId 465 loses almost always to a 5850 and CF. I mean, who are they trying to fool?
> Their conclusions seem to be way of their results. Performance, Noise, Temps, Power Consumption.



this card runs hot, its slow, its noisy, its got crap features and its expensive.

EDITORS CHOICE AWARD!



[/sarcasm]


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

Mussels said:


> this card runs hot, its slow, its noisy, its got crap features and its expensive.
> 
> EDITORS CHOICE AWARD!
> 
> ...



It's not slow, hot yes, noisy compared to what a 5850 ref cooler, hardly I heard that from W1z about my 480 gtx and it' is not true, overpriced yes big time. My 480 gtx doesn't get noisy until 60 percent plus and the AMD ref 33 percent plus, and I have had several 5850's and 5870's the cooler noise thing is non-sense ask anyone here who owns both cards.


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## Mussels (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> It's not slow, hot yes, noisy compared to what a 5850 ref cooler hardly, overpriced yes big time. I hear bias in this statement.



i was not speaking of this card. i was mocking guru3d.


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

Mussels said:


> i was not speaking of this card. i was mocking guru3d.



Got ya but my statement still stands in general, peace my friend, but how  anyone can say the 400 gtx series cooler is louder at the same setting as the ATI ref cooler is beyond me and once turned up a bit the 400 series doesn't get that hot at all. This card is overpriced in this review but at a 200 price point would have been great. The pricing is the issue here.  I'm sure I will get blasted now so fire away


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## Mussels (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> Got ya but my statement still stands in general, peace my friend, but how  anyone can say the 400 gtx series cooler is louder at the same setting as the ATI ref cooler is beyond me and once turned up a bit the 400 series doesn't get that hot at all. This card is overpriced in this review but at a 200 price point would have been great. The pricing is the issue here.  I'm sure I will get blasted now so fire away



i agree. pricing is the problem with this card - its power envelope is lower so that its acceptable, its performace is adequate (compared to last gens high end)... but its price is too high to make anyone want it.


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## eidairaman1 (May 31, 2010)

NV needs to retool their GF 400 series


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## Imsochobo (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> Nonsense this was said about the 200 gtx series as well. Prices will drop to the 200 range, drivers will be optimized and it will turn out to be a decent mid range card, watch and see. This power consumption issue is bs, the card down-clocks when not gaming, so unless you game 24/7 it's not a issue, thats a hand job fee good promotion, by the green movement. This card is overpriced but if it came in at 200 no one would blink. However, the 400 gtx series is hardly a flop. The 5800 series is more efficient power wise but no one cares unless it is running at top speed 24/7 which it isn't.



Not without shrink.....
And first in 6 months...


Take manufactureing costs, 465 may be a good deal, shrink+price drop.
But remember, this is a massive core, they cost alot, they are expensive, the r&d have been way too long, loosing money, they gotta catch up on income, while ATI have no issues with this cause they only get More money out of it.
Cheaper designs, 6-7 months ahead with first cards.
Performance crown.

Ati have alot of margin, 5870 can drop to 200 usd at its best. cause of bad 40NM( unless this is as good as the 55nm was now)


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## Fourstaff (May 31, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> NV needs to retool their GF 400 series



GF 100! And they have retooled it, why do you think GTX4xx on sale?


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## eidairaman1 (May 31, 2010)

I'm saying for a product refresh it needs to be fixed!!! a 465 still draws more juice than a GTX285 and a 5850! WTH.


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## Easy Rhino (May 31, 2010)

so this is essentially a crippled 470. looking at the benchmarks in most games my single gtx280 in dx10 outperforms this card. guess i will wait...


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## PopcornMachine (May 31, 2010)

Just NVIDIA still trying to sell their broken GPU design by making it cheaper, although still needing about the same amount of power.

Maybe the modified version will be better (GF104), but these cards are based on bad engineering.

I'm just amazed they are trying to sell it to people.  Even more amazed that people are actually buying it.


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## qubit (May 31, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> I'm saying for a product refresh it needs to be fixed!!! a 465 still draws more juice than a GTX285 and a 5850! WTH.



It sounds like the HD5830 lemon, doesn't it? The HD5770 is a much better buy.


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## Black Panther (May 31, 2010)

I don't mean to say that power consumption and temperatures are not important, but presumably both ATI and Nvidia cater for the "average" user. That also includes the "_average _gamer".

Most people who buy gaming pc's do just that i.e. they buy pre-builts.

The large majority won't be asking the retailer how much power the machine consumes _before_ purchasing. (They'd find out on receiving the power bill, when it's too late... and if they're rich they wouldn't be bothering either.)

Neither would any average user dream of checking the load temps of a graphics card prior to purchase. For all they care it could be running at 110 degrees - no problem as long as that doesn't interfere with performance.

Only the very few (i.e. system builders, serious enthusiasts or professionals like most of us here) bother to check running power consumption, temperatures and overclockabilities. The majority won't be bothering with how much the electricity meter is spinning, or whether they could double up the inside of their case to cook steak & chips as long as performance isn't affected.

What the large majority of potential purchasers check is the price vs performance ratio and nothing else. So business-wise, it makes sense for card manufacturers to prioritize the best performing cards at the best possible price, and say "to hell with power consumption and temperatures, we'll refine on that later after getting the market's majority".


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

PopcornMachine said:


> Just NVIDIA still trying to sell their broken GPU design by making it cheaper, although still needing about the same amount of power.
> 
> Maybe the modified version will be better (GF104), but these cards are based on bad engineering.
> 
> I'm just amazed they are trying to sell it to people.  Even more amazed that people are actually buying it.



ATI does it with cpus and gpus and there is nothing wrong with this at all. If two core work  out of 4 cores it's a dual core, if some shaders don't work it's a 5850. The geforce boys aren't the only ones doing it, heck you bought a 4830, which is a dumbed down 4870.




qubit said:


> It sounds like the HD5830 lemon, doesn't it? The HD5770 is a much better buy.



No the 5830 is not a failure and neither is the 465, they are just priced wrong.


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## Fourstaff (May 31, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> I'm saying for a product refresh it needs to be fixed!!! a 465 still draws more juice than a GTX285 and a 5850! WTH.



Its very hard to notice sarcasm in the internet. Well, it took R600 a few revisions and modifications before it became the 5000 series we all love. Nvidia is no different, they will need more than a few refreshes before its good. 

Wrong pricing = Fail product. And the 5830 is indeed a lemon, because it used much more power than it should, along with being too expensive.


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## kid41212003 (May 31, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> so this is essentially a crippled 470. looking at the benchmarks in most games my single gtx280 in dx10 outperforms this card. guess i will wait...



I can't believe with 350 shaders, it couldn't beat the GTX280 with just 240 shaders...


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## NdMk2o1o (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> Nonsense this was said about the 200 gtx series as well. Prices will drop to the 200 range, drivers will be optimized and it will turn out to be a decent mid range card, watch and see. This power consumption issue is bs, the card down-clocks when not gaming, so unless you game 24/7 it's not a issue, thats a hand job fee good promotion, by the green movement. This card is overpriced but if it came in at 200 no one would blink. However, the 400 gtx series is hardly a flop. The 5800 series is more efficient power wise but no one cares unless it is running at top speed 24/7 which it isn't.



Nonsense how? you just agreed with me cause you said the price will drop in time and its perf will get better with optimised drivers? I said it was expensive and the price/perf is way off 

IF the price drops by a good bit and the perf increases with drivers then I agree, however thats not the case right now so my argument stands, its perf is moot and for the price it is not worth it, but that is just my opinion!


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## Easy Rhino (May 31, 2010)

kid41212003 said:


> I can't believe with 350 shaders, it couldn't beat the GTX280 with just 240 shaders...



i am still confused. maybe when i go to sell these 280s i should raise the price closer to the 465


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## Easy Rhino (May 31, 2010)

stay on topic people. let's not turn this into a ATI/NVIDIA fanboy thread...


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## qubit (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> No the 5830 is not a failure and neither is the 465, they are just priced wrong.



I'm just going by what I've read: it's a crippled 5850, so has the same power consumption and thermals, with worse performance. The 5770 on the other hand, is designed from the ground up to be what it is and therefore performs much better (note that the performance is behind the 5830 though). I believe the 5770 is made a on a smaller process and overclocks very well?

EDIT: Just seen your post Easy... oops, bit off topic!  This will be my last word on this.


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## Fourstaff (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> I don't think it's a lemon because of power , again thats nonsense unless you run it at the max clock 24/7 and the 5830 downclocks just like thr 465 does when in power saving mode  (or 2d mode). Also if it's the wrong price it will come downs in price as sales decrease making it a very good card.



Yes, decrease in pricing will turn it into a good product. But as of now, its not a good product (hence I call it a lemon, although normally lemon=bad product). We shall wait for the GTX 465 to turn into a worthwhile product to buy then. Somehow or rather, there seems to be a few products which are runaway hits (GTS 250, HD5770) while others are doomed to fail (HD 5830). Even after the price is fixed, they will still be associated with a bad product due to bad rep. Vista is a perfect example.


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## 3volvedcombat (May 31, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> i am still confused. maybe when i go to sell these 280s i should raise the price closer to the 465



Thats what im completely baffled about right now guys. I mean regardless the 648Mhz clock on the old architecture 200 series gpu's it only has 240 stream/cuda cores to use.

But the GTX 465 has 350+ at just 607Mhz not much slower, Theres about 50% more cuda cores in the 465 then there is in a 285. Yes there bit wide interfaces are different, but the gpu's have different architecture's and GTX 400 series should be a better more efficient one at the least and its getting beat by old 285 with a what should be a big cripple. But no some how the 465 just sucks balls right now. Its amazing. Confusing. Maybe its got to be a cap with the Bit wide buss or something. Really couldnt be though.

There is something wrong with the GTX 400 series, and its pretty relevant now, noticing such a suck performance from what should be a bad-ass card with the specs. This is embarrassing.  

and the 460 will perform like what


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

3volvedcombat said:


> Thats what im completely baffled about right now guys. I mean regardless the 648Mhz clock on the old architecture 200 series gpu's it only has 240 stream/cuda cores to use.
> 
> But the GTX 465 has 350+ at just 607Mhz not much slower, Theres about 50% more cuda cores in the 465 then there is in a 285. Yes there bit wide interfaces are different, but the gpu's have different architecture's and GTX 400 series should be a better more efficient one at the least and its getting beat by old 285 with a what should be a big cripple. But no some how the 465 just sucks balls right now. Its amazing. Confusing. Maybe its got to be a cap with the Bit wide buss or something. Really couldnt be though.
> 
> ...



It has less texture units is the problem here is a bit from the review. *The most probable explanation for the benchmark results is the ridiculously low number of texture units on the card, only 44. For comparison, the HD 5850 has 72 TMUs, the GTX 285 has 80. Overall the card offers decent performance for most gamers at lower resolutions up to, including 1680x1050.*


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## PopcornMachine (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> ATI does it with cpus and gpus and there is nothing wrong with this at all. If two core work  out of 4 cores it's a dual core, if some shaders don't work it's a 5850. The geforce boys aren't the only ones doing it, heck you bought a 4830, which is a dumbed down 4870.



I'm saying that the GF100 chip failed to work as designed.  ATI put out a new line of DX11 GPUs that were more powerful than the previous generation, yet used less energy.  They didn't have to disable them at the start just to get them to market.

The GF100 was supposed to run 512 cores.  Apparently that worked bad enough that they could never release it, so we got the GTX 480 that works just enough so that it doesn't melt or cause power outages.

So this is not about release of cut down versions of GPUs.  Of course I know they all do that, and sometimes it produces a good product.

Again, what I'm saying is that the whole GF100 line is based on a badly engineered chip.  They are all failures.  And only those that would buy NVIDIA without thinking twice about it are buying these cards.


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## 3volvedcombat (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> It has less texture units is the problem



ahh 44 texture units for the 465 vs 80 texture units for the 285 

Is there something wrong with nvidia's design or they just decided to put less texture units in the 400 series because of the different architecture? 465 is a disillusionment, looks like it should perform like a beast, but its crippled by texturing units.


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## Easy Rhino (May 31, 2010)

3volvedcombat said:


> ahh 44 texture units for the 465 vs 80 texture units for the 285
> 
> Is there something wrong with nvidia's design or they just decided to put less texture units in the 400 series because of the different architecture? 465 is a disillusionment, looks like it should perform like a beast, but its crippled by texturing units.



this is just..........

i was waiting for the 465 thinking it would be a much less expensive than the 470 but with a few overclocking tweaks and some better drivers the performance would be close. clearly this is not the case. i go nvidia because i like to fold but now i am beginning to think it is not worth it.


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

PopcornMachine said:


> I'm saying that the GF100 chip failed to work as designed.  ATI put out a new line of DX11 GPUs that were more powerful than the previous generation, yet used less energy.  They didn't have to disable them at the start just to get them to market.
> 
> The GF100 was supposed to run 512 cores.  Apparently that worked bad enough that they could never release it, so we got the GTX 480 that works just enough so that it doesn't melt or cause power outages.
> 
> ...



How are they failures the 480 gtx is the most powerful single gpu on earth . I own one and it works great, it runs no hotter in my case than a 8800 gtx and the fan seems no louder than the prior generation. It needs a more aggressive fan setting but than can be fixed with afterburner. I do love the 5800 series and wouldn't hesitate to buy one they are great cards, but there is zero wrong with the 400 gtx series, could it be better? yes but as is it is a beast.
It needs a good powersupply for sure and it's a power hog but thats only a issue when gaming and thats usually a few hours a day. If you buy a 470 gtx heat doesn't become a issue at all, power consumption comes down a bit and the fan isn't loud!!!! plus it's a overclocking monster. They 465 gtx just needs a price adjustment at it's current pricing a 5830 or 5850 is a better choice ( I believe they are overpriced aswell) example at the 5850's price point a 470 gtx is a better buy. I could go all day, to me the only cards out that make sense price wise are the 5770, ref model 5870 and 480 gtx. To me all the rest are not priced right.


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## PopcornMachine (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> How are they failures the 480 gtx is the most powerful single gpu on earth . I own one and it works great, it runs no hotter in my case than a 8800 gtx and the fan seems no louder than the prior generation. It needs a more aggressive fan setting but than can be fixed with afterburner. I do love the 5800 series and wouldn't hesitate to buy one they are great cards, but there is zero wrong with the 400 gtx series, could it be better? yes but as is it is a beast.
> It needs a good powersupply for sure and it's a power hog but thats only a issue when gaming and thats usually a few hours a day. If you buy a 470 gtx heat doesn't become a issue at al, powerconsumption comes down a bitl and the fan isn't loud!!!! plus it's a overclocking monster. They 465 gtx just needs a price adjustment at it's current pricing a 5850 is a way better choice ( I believe they are overpriced aswell) at the 5850's price point a 470 gtx is a better buy. I could go all day to me the only cards out that make sense price wise are the 5770, ref model 5870 and 480 gtx. To me all the rest are not priced right.



While I think prices need to come down on all these cards, I would never consider a GTX 470 over an HD 5850.

In fact I wouldn't buy any GF100 based card for the reasons I have already indicated.

We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## kid41212003 (May 31, 2010)

It has 20% less shader cores compare to GTX470, and it performs 20% slower. So I don't think it's the design problems, probably because it's a complete different core design, nothing like GT200.


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

PopcornMachine said:


> While I think prices need to come down on all these cards, I would never consider a GTX 470 over an HD 5850.
> 
> In fact I wouldn't buy any GF100 based card for the reasons I have already indicated.
> 
> We will just have to agree to disagree.



Do you buy a Ferrari for gas mileage? because thats what a 480 gtx is, but on to your point. When both are maxed overclocked a 470 gtx will kill a 5850. The 470 gtx becomes a Ferrari after it's core reaches 800+. The 5850 however, just like all the other 5800, series doesn't gain much performance after 900 to 950 core( hell of a overclock on a 5850) and cannot keep up. I believe thats why ATI doesn't go much higher than 900 and it's because these chips are so efficient they have reached their max potential, which is not a bad thing. On the other hand the 400 series are raw power and don't have optimized drivers or smaller cores at present. That doesn't make them bad gpus but they haven't reached their max potential, and will only get better with time. When I say raw power for Geforce, I would say finely honed and efficient power in Ati's defense and again there is nothing wrong with the 5800 series they are still the overall top dogs and the new 5970 with 4gb of ram and after market coolers make them even better.


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## HalfAHertz (May 31, 2010)

3volvedcombat said:


> Thats what im completely baffled about right now guys. I mean regardless the 648Mhz clock on the old architecture 200 series gpu's it only has 240 stream/cuda cores to use.
> 
> But the GTX 465 has 350+ at just 607Mhz not much slower, Theres about 50% more cuda cores in the 465 then there is in a 285. Yes there bit wide interfaces are different, but the gpu's have different architecture's and GTX 400 series should be a better more efficient one at the least and its getting beat by old 285 with a what should be a big cripple. But no some how the 465 just sucks balls right now. Its amazing. Confusing. Maybe its got to be a cap with the Bit wide buss or something. Really couldnt be though.
> 
> ...



It is the same with Ati. The 5830 has like 50% more SPs than the 4890, but still falls short. It's not only about SPs/cuda cores count but the ratio between the different GPU elements.


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## trt740 (May 31, 2010)

HalfAHertz said:


> It is the same with Ati. The 5830 has like 50% more SPs than the 4890, but still falls short. It's not only about SP/ couda core counts but the ratio between the different GPU elements.



In that case it's the rop count. All a 5830 is performance wise, is a slightly improved 4870 series card with Dx 11. If you oc a 5830 it will pull aways from a 4890. Also I wonder how well the 465 will crunch?


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## PopcornMachine (May 31, 2010)

trt740 said:


> Do you buy a Ferrari for gas mileage? because thats what a 480 gtx is, but on to your point. When both are maxed overclocked a 470 gtx will kill a 5850. The 470 gtx becomes a Ferrari after it's core reaches 800+. The 5850 however, just like all the other 5800, series doesn't gain much performance after 900 to 950 core( hell of a overclock on a 5850) and cannot keep up. I believe thats why ATI doesn't go much higher than 900 and it's because these chips are so efficient they have reached their max potential, which is not a bad thing. On the other hand the 400 series are raw power and don't have optimized drivers or smaller cores at present. That doesn't make them bad gpus but they haven't reached their max potential, and will only get better with time. When I say raw power for Geforce, I would say finely honed and efficient power in Ati's defense and again there is nothing wrong with the 5800 series they are still the overall top dogs and the new 5970 with 4gb of ram and after market coolers make them even better.




I probably shouldn't bother because you are assuming everyone is or should be using your criteria in picking a graphics card.

I'm looking for a fast card at a good price.  It doesn't have to be a Ferrari.  But using your analogy, If I can get a slightly slower Ferrari for a cheaper price that uses a lot less gasoline, then that's the one for me.

Hell, I might even be able to buy two of those Ferraris.   And these Ferraris didn't have  some pistons taken out of the engine to make them work. 

In short, energy usage is important to me.  And the soundness of the engineering.

If you have to have the fastest car on the road, then that is your choice.


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## OnBoard (May 31, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> this is just..........
> 
> i was waiting for the 465 thinking it would be a much less expensive than the 470 but with a few overclocking tweaks and some better drivers the performance would be close. clearly this is not the case. i go nvidia because i like to fold but now i am beginning to think it is not worth it.



Hehee, I sold my GTX 280 because of this card  Couple months ago the specs looked good (one shader cluster more) and I though no-one will buy GT200 cards once this is out..

Well, now we know better :shadedshu

OK, not really for this card but GTX 460 and then this came out as NVIDIA wants to get rid of the bad GF100 cores. But GTX 460 will be even more slow and GT200 remains it's DX100 price/performance crown.

---

W1zzard mentioned the price/performance at the end of the review. I'm starting to thing they purposely cut GTX 465 352 shaders, with 384 shaders and 48 TMUs this would have been a much better card for the price point. It could have just resulted 5850 price drop that ATI surely could do, having sold the card 8months over MSRP 

NVIDIA should drop the price of 480 to 5870 level, 470 to 5850 level, 465 to 5830 level. ATI would drop the price on all of them and release 4890 at old 4870 price. NVIDIA would release 485 to compete with that and we the consumers would be happy 

I liked 2008 much better


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## Jstn7477 (May 31, 2010)

5850 beats the 465 in most tests, it appears. 

5850: Max power consumption: 150w
465:   Max power consumption: 199w


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## Easy Rhino (May 31, 2010)

OnBoard said:


> Hehee, I sold my GTX 280 because of this card  Couple months ago the specs looked good (one shader cluster more) and I though no-one will buy GT200 cards once this is out..
> 
> Well, now we know better :shadedshu



i am glad i waited!!! seriously, i have 2 280s in sli and these bad boys rock in dx10 mode. the reasons i was thinking of going to a single 465 was to cut back on power consumption and maintain most of the performance and have dx 11. so glad i waited!


---



> W1zzard mentioned the price/performance at the end of the review. I'm starting to thing they purposely cut GTX 465 352 shaders, with 384 shaders and 48 TMUs this would have been a much better card for the price point. It could have just resulted 5850 price drop that ATI surely could do, having sold the card 8months over MSRP
> 
> NVIDIA should drop the price of 480 to 5870 level, 470 to 5850 level, 465 to 5830 level. ATI would drop the price on all of them and release 4890 at old 4870 price. NVIDIA would release 485 to compete with that and we the consumers would be happy
> 
> I liked 2008 much better



perhaps nvidia is going to come out with another version of this without the shaders cut out


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## OnBoard (May 31, 2010)

Jstn7477 said:


> 5850 beats the 465 in most tests, it appears.
> 
> 5850: Max power consumption: 150w
> 465:   Max power consumption: 199w



You have to remember that there is hardly any reference designed 5850s left and all new revisions consume more. So it's more like 175W vs 199W. Or 194W vs 199W for the slightly overcloked Powercolor HD 5850 PCS+.


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## phanbuey (May 31, 2010)

Guru 3d is saying that you can flash this to a 470...


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## KainXS (May 31, 2010)

bullshiet, the rops on the GTX4XX cards are locked via the 6 memory controllers/partitions, the GTX470 has 5 of its 64bit memory controllers active(10 or 20 memory pieces) and the GTX465 has 4 of them active(8 or 16 memory pieces), meaning you cannot unlock the rops meaning your not going to get a 470 and unlocking SP's . . . . . . not sure about the shaders(maybe they changed the lockout routine), but for the rops its impossible, and probably the same for the shaders too unless a mistake happened like when some 9600GSO's were released that unlocked to full 8800GTS 512 because of a mixup where 8800GTS 512 were sold with GSO locked bios's which based on wizzards review is not the case because of the memory pieces on the boards.


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## OnBoard (May 31, 2010)

phanbuey said:


> Guru 3d is saying that you can flash this to a 470...



That would be a reason to get one, if you can unlock stuff. Direct flash to GTX 470 would mean that 3/5 of the disabled shader clusters would have to be working and don't thing there is currently a way to select what to return.

6800LE was a great card even if you didn't get all 16 pipes unlocked. Mine did 12, where default was 8 (there was 2 clusters disabled, the other gave green garbled screen).

Now if you could get even one shader cluster more, GTX 465 would be much more tempting


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## GSquadron (May 31, 2010)

The review was given right away from my birthday 
Thx to Wizzard for this birthday present


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## HillBeast (Jun 1, 2010)

phanbuey said:


> Guru 3d is saying that you can flash this to a 470...



Where did that say that?


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## alexsubri (Jun 1, 2010)

nVidia once again dissapoints me ...


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## newtekie1 (Jun 1, 2010)

There has to be some driver issues here.  I can't see a GTX285 ever outperforming this, it just doesn't have the specs to support that.  I will be interesting to see what some driver improvements will do with this card, but right now this card just isn't worth considering.



Mussels said:


> looked like it had enough space to me, that adaptor would just be weighed down and potentially break/damage the socket.



It looks like it, but once it is in a case, there isn't enough room for the cable to plug in.  The port would actually fit, but the casing around it would hit the screw from the DVI port and the case where the PCI bracket screws on.



Mussels said:


> oh i'm sure they had reason for it, i'm just opposed to adaptors like that. you should see how bent my HDMI-> DVI adaptor is, due to the weight of a cable over two weeks... i'm just glad its the adaptor that bent, and not the HDMI socket.
> 
> I would have chosen one HDMI, one DVI, and one DP. Would have fit easier, not required weird adaptors, and supported the major connection options for years to come.



I totally agree, I hate the mini-HDMI adaptor.  And my eVGA card didn't even come with the adaptor, instead they included a 6ft mini-HDMI to HDMI cable.  That doesn't exactly reach all the way around the room to my TV on the other side of the room.  I have a 25ft HDMI cable run to do that, but I can't use it with the HDMI port.

I think just running a standard HDMI port off the top of one of the DVI adpators would have been great.  Similar to how ATi has stacked the DVI port, but instead make the top one a HDMI port so it doesn't block as much of the vent.  Then put a DisplayPort where the mini HDMI is.


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## KainXS (Jun 1, 2010)

some sources are claiming that Point of View in particular did release a GTX465 with a GTX470 PCB to reviewers but this only confirms that the reference GTX465 will not unlock, its the same thing as the Galaxy 9600GSO crap.

its this one





Its either an isolated incident or its fake, any way you look at it, the real GTX465 will not unlock.


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## OnBoard (Jun 1, 2010)

KainXS said:


> some sources are claiming that Point of View in particular did release a GTX465 with a GTX470 PCB to reviewers



Almost all GTX 465 comes with GTX 470 PCB (except 2 memory chips). Palit, Gainward, Gigabyte and Galaxy have own designs (that are also identical to their non reference GTX 470).


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## KainXS (Jun 1, 2010)

thats what they are claiming, that those 2 memory chips are there, when they're not supposed to, I'm talking the entire pcb including the memory.


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## Parad0x (Jun 1, 2010)

Seems that the lab501 guys got the same "unlockable" Point Of View retail card as Guru3D.

@ *W1zzard*: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253063 Could you please look into this matter?



HillBeast said:


> Where did that say that?



page 20 last paragraph on the bottom


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## phanbuey (Jun 1, 2010)

_There's something else I want to mention here. I'm not saying you should, by all means no. But we already informed you that the PCB, packaging and GPU on both the GTX 465 and 470 are 100% similar. We flashed a GTX 470 BIOS in one of the GTX 465 cards just to see if it would work, and it ran perfectly fine. Risky yes .. the extra disabled shader clusters could be damaged. But well let's just say, keep this little story in mind._

--source http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-465-sli-review/20


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## crow1001 (Jun 1, 2010)

All my respect to Wizzard, he is one of the most non bias reviewers still left out there and his review of the 465 was great and all credit to him. Some of the " others " reviews out there are embarrassing to say the least, bigging up this fail card.


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## phanbuey (Jun 1, 2010)

card might not be that big of a fail if they didnt laser it... it actually might be a killer card... like the nvidia equivalent of AMD's unlockable cores.


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## Bl4ck (Jun 1, 2010)

i don't know about you guys but to me it all looks like some kind of a price fixing thing between ATI and Nvidia  

HD5xxx series is close in performance to what Nvidia is offering. When we look at the GTX470 and GTX480 everyone looks @ power consumption that is not so much higher then ATI's ,and even that it's @ full load ,it matters for everyone that has sub i7/ddr3/ssd ect. rig but it doesn't matter for someone with pricey X58 mobo, with LGA1366 i7 cpu, and 1000kw+ PSU that GTX480 is using 50-60watts more power @ 100% load than ATI's HD5870. Nvidia did their homework, they gave people the fastest single chip solution for year 2009/2010 (so far ;]) ,and what did ATI do ? amped by 2 shader cores from their HD4890 line + DX11 (that's why Tessellation is lagging in there) , and their fastest card is not single chip solution its a dual chip 5970. 

GTX470/480 may be noisier but when you have the rest of your rig specs on par with the GTX then you probably will water cool the VGA also. 

I have GTX275 right now, i would gladly switch to GTX470 (lower power draw in idle then my gtx275)  but not with the prices of these cards today. i think the pricing it's the only problem with Fermi based GPU today,  i mean c'mon guys we don't have the same mistake like FX5800 series anymore ;], it's all about the dollar/euro now.


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## HalfAHertz (Jun 1, 2010)

Bl4ck said:


> i don't know about you guys but to me it all looks like some kind of a price fixing thing between ATI and Nvidia
> 
> HD5xxx series is close in performance to what Nvidia is offering. When we look at the GTX470 and GTX480 everyone looks @ power consumption that is not so much higher then ATI's ,and even that it's @ full load ,it matters for everyone that has sub i7/ddr3/ssd ect. rig but it doesn't matter for someone with pricey X58 mobo, with LGA1366 i7 cpu, and 1000kw+ PSU that GTX480 is using 50-60watts more power @ 100% load than ATI's HD5870. Nvidia did their homework, they gave people the fastest single chip solution for year 2009/2010 (so far ;]) ,and what did ATI do ? amped by 2 shader cores from their HD4890 line + DX11 (that's why Tessellation is lagging in there) , and their fastest card is not single chip solution its a dual chip 5970.
> 
> ...



There is no price fixing...I would understand your suspicion if Ati and Nvidia released together and at the same time, but Nvidia had 6 months to prepare and because they couldn't compete with Ati's products due to manufacturing defects, they had to position their cards wisely - in such a way as to undermine the competition and be the better sale.


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## phanbuey (Jun 1, 2010)

Yeah it looks more like ATI is keeping the prices higher because they can... 5850 is still selling above msrp. :/


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## newtekie1 (Jun 1, 2010)

Parad0x said:


> Seems that the lab501 guys got the same "unlockable" Point Of View retail card as Guru3D.
> 
> @ *W1zzard*: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253063 Could you please look into this matter?
> 
> ...



More than likely Point of View just locked GTX470 cards via the BIOS to get samples out to reviewers as quickly as possible.

W1z's sample clearly is missing the extra memory chips in his PCB shots, so there is no chance of unlocking, and this will be the case with probably all retail GTX465 cards(there _might_ be a few that slip through into circulation that are really GTX470s, but I doubt it).

It doesn't make sense for manufacturers, who are already trying to cut costs, to artificially increase cost by including memory chips that will never be used and that aren't even supposed to be there.


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## Mussels (Jun 1, 2010)

likely the review cards are just modded 470's since they lacked 465's to send for review.

Its been done before.


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## Parad0x (Jun 1, 2010)

Got my POV 465 today and flashed the 470 bios. Everything is fine so far.


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## KainXS (Jun 1, 2010)

sure paradox. . . . you can flash a GTX470 bios to a GTX465 but it more than likely won't do anything . . . . you got pics.

sorry dude need proof


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## newtekie1 (Jun 1, 2010)

And do you have pics of the PCB with the memory chips not missing?


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## phanbuey (Jun 1, 2010)

question... are the memory chips linked to the disabled clusters or is it a bit like the 275 where you can have all 240 SP's with less memory?

It wont be a 470 per se... but a 470 with a gig of ram?

EDIT:  there are already guides up as to how to unlock a 465 to a 470.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4413995&postcount=8

THESE DO UNLOCK.  There is a high chance of bricking the card though. :/


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## Parad0x (Jun 1, 2010)

Pretty sure it has 10 memory chips. It seems that the entire first batch of POVs were just 470s flashed with 465 bioses. If the screenshot above isn't enough i can make a video.


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## Easy Rhino (Jun 1, 2010)

have you done any benchmarking on this to see if it actually improved performance? a lot of "unlocks" are really just on paper where the bios of the chip accepts the new information but doesnt actually change anything.


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## OnBoard (Jun 1, 2010)

KainXS said:


> thats what they are claiming, that those 2 memory chips are there, when they're not supposed to, I'm talking the entire pcb including the memory.



Ah yes, seems so. That Romanian quide used one of those cards. Well then there really isn't anything to it than a new bios. Just remove cooler and see if you got the chips. W1zzard's card didn't.

Sure looks like a mix up on factory where they took a patch of blank GTX470 cards and stuck GTX 465 bios in there.

_Some of us have been trying this with the cards released to reviewers prior to launch which ARE retail samples. Of the 12 cards we have tested, 4 "unlocked", 3 recognized the BIOS but didn't "unlock" and 5 are now paper weights. Nothing was going to be published for several days until we found a way to successfully flash the dead cards back to their original state. Seems like caution has once again been thrown into the wind though._

Hehee, not a nice rate, but doesn't mention if they all had extra memory or they just tried with every GTX 465 they had.


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## Parad0x (Jun 1, 2010)

CPU @ 1.2GHz coz of EIST, under load it's @ 2.93


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## newtekie1 (Jun 1, 2010)

OnBoard said:


> Ah yes, seems so. That Romanian quide used one of those cards. Well then there really isn't anything to it than a new bios. Just remove cooler and see if you got the chips. W1zzard's card didn't.
> 
> Sure looks like a mix up on factory where they took a patch of blank GTX470 cards and stuck GTX 465 bios in there.
> 
> ...



As Mussels pointed they probably took a batch of GTX470s and just flashed them to GTX465s to get cards out to reviewers on time.  Makes sense that some of that batch might have also made it into the retail channels.

I'm sure the simplest way to know if your card will flash is to check under the heatsink to make sure the extra memory chips are there, as you mention, and of course fix the horrible job they did in applying the thermal paste.


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## pjladyfox (Jun 1, 2010)

trt740 said:


> I could go all day, to me the only cards out that make sense price wise are the 5770, ref model 5870 and 480 gtx. To me all the rest are not priced right.



And this really is it in a nutshell. I'm really surprised that NVIDIA did not price this more aggressively to compete and phase out their GTX 275 and 285 cards. I mean, is really anyone going to go out and pay more for a card that performs the same as the previous generation models just for DX11?

Either NVIDIA is running razor tight on the margins for the entire Fermi series forcing these prices to happen or marketing is on some really good meds thinking that people really must be THAT stupid to pay more for less. Especially when you stack onto the fact that they are STILL being very short-sighted by disabling the ability for someone to run their cards in PhysX mode with ATI video cards present. Sorry NVIDIA but whoever is making these decisions really needs to go otherwise you are starting down a path that is going to start to cost you money once the message gets out to the mainstream users you are trying to sucker.


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## newtekie1 (Jun 1, 2010)

I can't really see how only those three cards are priced right, and the others aren't.

I mean how is a reference HD5870 priced right, but an HD5850 only ~20% behind the HD5870 in performance but priced ~25% lower.  Why would anyone consider that not priced right?

Then there is the GTX470, which is ~10% behind the HD5870, and ~10% lower in price.  Seems priced right to me.

Then there is this GTX465, which is~30% behind the HD5870, and ~28% lower in price.  Pretty close to being priced right to me.  And as I said, I really see some obvious signs that point to some driver issues here, as this card should be outperforming a GTX285 based on the specs.

Plus, just look at the Performance per $ page, the HD5870/GTX480 both offer worse performance per $ then the GTX470, HD5850, HD5830, and even this GTX465...


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## KainXS (Jun 1, 2010)

OnBoard said:


> Ah yes, seems so. That Romanian quide used one of those cards. Well then there really isn't anything to it than a new bios. Just remove cooler and see if you got the chips. W1zzard's card didn't.
> 
> Sure looks like a mix up on factory where they took a patch of blank GTX470 cards and stuck GTX 465 bios in there.
> 
> ...



probably but galaxy did the same thing with another card 2 years ago, its good to see some people will get lucky, POV's 465's will sell like hot cakes now, but I bet Nvidia is not happy right now, alot of dead cards gonna be floatin around since people will be tryin to force flash em.


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## OnBoard (Jun 1, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> As Mussels pointed they probably took a batch of GTX470s and just flashed them to GTX465s to get cards out to reviewers on time.  Makes sense that some of that batch might have also made it into the retail channels.
> 
> I'm sure the simplest way to know if your card will flash is to check under the heatsink to make sure the extra memory chips are there, as you mention, and of course fix the horrible job they did in applying the thermal paste.



Yep, but just checked the prices and POV GTX 465 is just 30€ cheaper that cheapest GTX 470, so it's not worth it. Now if GTX 465 was selling at a lower price then yes it could be worth the risk of having a regular GTX 465


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## newtekie1 (Jun 1, 2010)

OnBoard said:


> Yep, but just checked the prices and POV GTX 465 is just 30€ cheaper that cheapest GTX 470, so it's not worth it. Now if GTX 465 was selling at a lower price then yes it could be worth the risk of having a regular GTX 465



Definitely, I wouldn't buy a GTX465 in hopes of getting a GTX470.  However, if I was planning on just getting a GTX465 to have a GTX465, I certainly would check under the hood just incase.


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## erocker (Jun 3, 2010)

phanbuey said:


> Yeah it looks more like ATI is keeping the prices higher because they can... 5850 is still selling above msrp. :/



I don't know for certain, but ATi's MSRP has never changed excluding the 5830 and lower. Prices are heavily influenced by the Retail market, not the manufacturer.

For me the 465 needs to be priced at the 5830 level for it to be a better competitor.


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## SeanG (Jun 5, 2010)

I was going to get one of these till I seen call of duty 4 performance.I wouldnt even notice the upgrade over my 260 for almost $300.


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