# Apple starting to use new screws to prevent users from upgrading their hardware!



## newtekie1 (Jan 21, 2011)

http://www.ifixit.com/blog/blog/2011/01/20/apples-diabolical-plan-to-screw-your-iphone/

Want to upgrade your SSD in that new Macbook you bought?  NO!  You have to buy a new one according to Apple!

You want to take the battery out of your Macbook? NO!  You _over_paid good money for that computer, why would Apple let you do anything with it?

I can't believe people put up with this crap...


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## [Ion] (Jan 21, 2011)

This is horrible! :shadedshu

This is why I have a Thinkpad, it may not be the easiest to disassemble, but it's put together entirely with Phillips screws and can be completely disassembled with a cheap screwdriver


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## Kantastic (Jan 21, 2011)

It won't take long until some cheap Chinese OEM makes a screwdriver that fits the screw.


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## mlee49 (Jan 21, 2011)

Apple will spin it for 'security' reasons and people will praise them and happily buy it.


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## Mussels (Jan 21, 2011)

Kantastic said:


> It won't take long until some cheap Chinese OEM makes a screwdriver that fits the screw.



^ what you said


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## [Ion] (Jan 21, 2011)

mlee49 said:


> Apple will spin it for 'security' reasons and people will praise them and happily buy it.



How will they be able to spin this as "security"?


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## Mussels (Jan 21, 2011)

[Ion] said:


> How will they be able to spin this as "security"?



now people cant do insidious things like put third party batteries in your iphone to shorten its life and void its warranty, or give you a faster, higher capacity drive through 'unreliable' sources. hell, it might be a PC part and not a mac part, and ofc, mac parts are _just better_


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## newtekie1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Kantastic said:


> It won't take long until some cheap Chinese OEM makes a screwdriver that fits the screw.



If you read the article, they already are selling them.


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## Andrei23 (Jan 21, 2011)

apple is a cult
I am pretty sure if steve jobs decided to sell a shiny mac that had an AMD K7 CPU 2 kb of ram that was soldered shut so you would need a blow torch just to open it, 90% of the people buying mac without fail will have to have it for the mac price ofc


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## erixx (Jan 21, 2011)

screwed, yeah


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## KainXS (Jan 21, 2011)

ya they're selling the part but they say it will almost definitely destroy the old annoying screws which will probably kill your warranty, and whats with all the apple/pc slander





they been good friends since then, everything else is marketing and fanboys, look at waldo lol


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## Thatguy (Jan 21, 2011)

Kantastic said:


> It won't take long until some cheap Chinese OEM makes a screwdriver that fits the screw.



  Snap on tools "likely Matco to" already has a screw driver for these. Its not in the online catalog yet.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't get this at all, they had to know someone would make a screw driver for it, and that anyone wanting to upgrade won't just give up instead of buying a $2 screw driver. Seems all this does is cost them .2 cents more per laptop for having non standard screws made. They'd lose more sales for being labeled dicks than they'd gain from people deciding it was too hard to upgrade and just buying a new laptop.


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## newtekie1 (Jan 21, 2011)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> I don't get this at all, they had to know someone would make a screw driver for it, and that anyone wanting to upgrade won't just give up instead of buying a $2 screw driver. Seems all this does is cost them .2 cents more per laptop for having non standard screws made. They'd lose more sales for being labeled dicks than they'd gain from people deciding it was too hard to upgrade and just buying a new laptop.



I think you over-estimate the average user, and Mac plays on their ignorance.  I had a guy come in my shop the other day with a Macbook Pro that wanted to upgrade the RAM to 8GB and put in a larger 750GB hard drive.  The Apple store wanted $500 for the RAM and $400 for the HDD, plus the installation charge.  He thought I was insane when I quoted him $300 w/ Labor.  He said "but don't you have buy the special Mac memory and hard drive?":shadedshu

If apple says you need special parts and need a special screw driver, most of their users will just accept it and either get it done at an Apple store or just buy a new one.


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## Mussels (Jan 21, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> I think you over-estimate the average user, and Mac plays on their ignorance.  I had a guy come in my shop the other day with a Macbook Pro that wanted to upgrade the RAM to 8GB and put in a larger 750GB hard drive.  The Apple store wanted $500 for the RAM and $400 for the HDD, plus the installation charge.  He thought I was insane when I quoted him $300 w/ Labor.  He said "but don't you have buy the special Mac memory and hard drive?":shadedshu
> 
> If apple says you need special parts and need a special screw driver, most of their users will just accept it and either get it done at an Apple store or just buy a new one.



i had a similar discussion with someone at work.

After a lot of questions that she had no answers for (read: she couldnt repeat mac advertising back at me) it boiled down to: her school used macs, so she assumed they were the best and now only buys apple.

After i told her that schools buy whatever they get offered cheapest, she had a sad.

(and yes, the big companies love offering schools extremely low prices to catch students in this trap)


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## FordGT90Concept (Jan 21, 2011)

Kantastic said:


> It won't take long until some cheap Chinese OEM makes a screwdriver that fits the screw.


Ironically, probably the same Chinese OEM that supplies Apple.


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## HossHuge (Jan 21, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> If apple says you need *special* parts and need a *special* screw driver, most of their users will just accept it and either get it done at an Apple store or just buy a new one.



They keep using that word *"special"* to make the consumer think, WOW! It must be better because you can't just use regular things on it or with it.

I'm proud to say that Apple doesn't have single red penny in their pockets from me.


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## newtekie1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Mussels said:


> i had a similar discussion with someone at work.
> 
> After a lot of questions that she had no answers for (read: she couldnt repeat mac advertising back at me) it boiled down to: her school used macs, so she assumed they were the best and now only buys apple.
> 
> ...



Yep, Microsoft used to supply every student at my College with a free copy of the latest version of Windows Professional and Office Professional every year.  It was exactly for that reason, to get us all used to using it so we would want it once we graduated and had money to pay for it.

I got a free copy of Windows 2000 Pro, 3 copies of XP Pro, Office 2000 Pro, Office XP Pro, and two copies of Office 2003 Pro...all which I promptly sold on ebay... 

They also gave every student enrolled in the Computer Science, Information Technology, MIS, or ECT majors free access to an MSDN account with even more free Microsoft software(pretty much everything major they put out going back to Windows 3.1 and DOS5.


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## DriedFrogPills (Jan 21, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> They keep using that word *"special"* to make the consumer think, WOW! It must be better because you can't just use regular things on it or with it.
> 
> I'm proud to say that Apple doesn't have single red penny in their pockets from me.



or its the other kind of "special"


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## Mussels (Jan 21, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> They keep using that word *"special"* to make the consumer think, WOW! It must be better because you can't just use regular things on it or with it.
> 
> I'm proud to say that Apple doesn't have single red penny in their pockets from me.



god, the amount of things i want to slap people for with that kind of thinking.


"No, i dont want this stupid cable (3.5mm stereo) i want an IPOD cable" (friend bitching about hooking their ipod to their CD player, which only had a 3.5mm aux input)

or even a radio ad you could tell they had to dumb things down for consumers

"with famous brands like dell, sony, samsung, *IPOD* and *IPAD*"
average joe doesnt even realize they are a product, and not a brand


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## AltecV1 (Jan 21, 2011)

my honest opinion is that i think people who buy MACs dont really give a shit!, they buy MACs coz they think it will make them special and they are easy do use(AKA dumbed down for idiots). one of my friends (who is in do music and photography) wanted do buy a macbook pro and i asked why would he want do that,when he can get a much more powerful laptop for the same money....well it all boiled down do"it looks cool" and "all the other artistic people have them"


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 21, 2011)

Kantastic said:


> It won't take long until some cheap Chinese OEM makes a screwdriver that fits the screw.



look at the website its already done 9.99$


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## streetfighter 2 (Jan 21, 2011)

So mac has finally turned into Mercedes.  I'm so stunned I think may need to get another beer out of the fridge--  Which is probably because my current beer is empty...

Honestly, anyone who really gives a hoot will either buy a Chinese driver with one of these penta-globular heads or use a screw extractor.

IMO No complaint with apple here.  They fill the niche for people who don't care and have a lot of money to throw around; the same people that own German cars that don't even have a dipstick.  God bless em .

@MohawkAngel - Your car doesn't have an engine oil dipstick?


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 21, 2011)

My sunfire 2005 does not have a dipstick on the automatic transmission its a little bolt on the front. Went the oil flow form the hole stop filling and screw it back. I like it like that you dont overflow the tranny


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## MilkyWay (Jan 21, 2011)

Reminds me a lot of those game-bits they used on consoles to stop people modding them. I know Sega used to use standard Phillips heads but Nintendo used game-bits on some consoles.

Wow manufacturers want you to buy their overpriced tat instead of some other overpriced tat. Everyone does that look at Microsoft and the Xbox 360 they got that pretty much locked down to first party accessories and hard drives.


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## qubit (Jan 21, 2011)

This is the Apple reality distortion field at its best. What tossers. 

And what suckers for buying into it.


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

People are suckers for buying quality hardware? I'm no fan of apple meself, but the things they make are of high quality, and if people want to pay a premium for that (and the looks if you like that sort of thing) just let them.

This is a bit too much though.


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## Red_Machine (Jan 21, 2011)

They've been doing it for years.  I have an iBook G3 Clamshell that has a 3GB hard drive that I obviously want to upgrade.  Now, the HDD is located in the same compartment as the RAM and AirPort card (which is easily accessed by unclipping the keyboard and using a small Phillips head screwdriver), however you can only actually get at the hard drive if you disassemble the entire laptop (how asinine is THAT?) which requires a Torx 8 screwdriver and the smallest I have is 10...  Annoyed.


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## CJCerny (Jan 21, 2011)

This topic is a non-starter. Apple certainly isn't the only company that attempts to keep you from accessing and/or swapping hardware that they don't want you messing with. Torx and others have been around for years and are used by an infinite number of companies as is the "your warranty is void if this sticker is broken" concept. This is just an Apple hate troll. Apple makes nice toys that a lot of people are willing to pay good money for. You don't have to bash them or make them into an evil empire because they choose to run their business in a certain way or because you think their products are overpriced.


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

Red_Machine said:


> They've been doing it for years.  I have an iBook G3 Clamshell that has a 3GB hard drive that I obviously want to upgrade.  Now, the HDD is located in the same compartment as the RAM and AirPort card (which is easily accessed by unclipping the keyboard and using a small Phillips head screwdriver), however you can only actually get at the hard drive if you disassemble the entire laptop (how asinine is THAT?) which requires a Torx 8 screwdriver and the smallest I have is 10...  Annoyed.



Not uncommon, at least not back in the days.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 21, 2011)

Herro - someone call for anglegrinder? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





If they try to stop you upgrading - theres another way to get inside - it will void your warranty and fill your room with the smell of burnt/burning plastic. you will need gaffer tape to patch up that hole underneath your Macbook but hell you can doodle on it and turn it into the next must have fashion accessory!!


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## qubit (Jan 21, 2011)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Herro - someone call for anglegrinder? http://www.jromasonryrestoration.com/images/BOSCH_20ANGLE_20GRINDER.jpg
> 
> If they try to stop you upgrading - theres another way to get inside - it will void your warranty and fill your room with the smell of burnt/burning plastic. you will need gaffer tape to patch up that hold underneath your Macbook but hell you can doodle on it and turn it into the next must have fashion accessory!!



Awesome.


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## _JP_ (Jan 21, 2011)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Ironically, probably the same Chinese OEM that supplies Apple.


And that would be Foxconn.


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## ivicagmc (Jan 21, 2011)

Apple is made for two sorts  of people. The one who comes in the store and says what is the best(priciest)  you have, and doesn't care about the price, and the ones who will sell house and everything they have to imitate the first sort. The live on brand and advertising of being special counting on people ignorance of hardware and affinity towards shiny, expensive looking things...


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## v12dock (Jan 21, 2011)

http://www.ifixit.com/iPhone-Parts/iPhone-4-Liberation-Kit/IF182-019


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

ivicagmc said:


> Apple is made for two sorts  of people. The one who comes in the store and says what is the best(priciest)  you have, and doesn't care about the price, and the ones who will sell house and everything they have to imitate the first sort. The live on brand and advertising of being special counting on people ignorance of hardware and affinity towards shiny, expensive looking things...



Not really. Apple's products are top notch. They are high quality. For the things you actually get (size, weight, battery life and looks are all feutures) the prices are spot on. I usually don't agree with them and I don't care much for how they do software, but hardwarewise it's usually spot on (this might not be true with Mac Pro's though).


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## ivicagmc (Jan 21, 2011)

Frick said:


> Not really. Apple's products are top notch. They are high quality. For the things you actually get (size, weight, battery life and looks are all feutures) the prices are spot on. I usually don't agree with them and I don't care much for how they do software, but hardwarewise it's usually spot on (this might not be true with Mac Pro's though).



It is similar to people who bye i7 975 istead i7 950... yes 975 is a bit faster but it cost 4 times more... You are paying for bragging rights or ignorance  about hardware. Vanity is devil's favorite sin


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## yogurt_21 (Jan 21, 2011)

well considering the link already has a solution to get the screws off and replace them it would seem the move is pointless anyways. 

just another waste of time and money for apple that can be easily gotten around.


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## RejZoR (Jan 21, 2011)

There is one simple solution. Don't buy Apple stuff. As simple as that.


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

ivicagmc said:


> It is similar to people who bye i7 975 istead i7 950... yes 975 is a bit faster but it cost 4 times more... You are paying for bragging rights or ignorance  about hardware. Vanity is devil's favorite sin



I don't agree. You can always clock the 950 to match 975 speeds, but you can't clock a Blackberry phone to match iPhone's battery life.


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## douglatins (Jan 21, 2011)

I got banned on gizmodo for commenting in this,
I said "Idouches will continue to buy their sh%t, whatever what they do"
Don't ban me bro


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

douglatins said:


> I got banned on gizmodo for commenting in this,
> I said "Idouches will continue to buy their sh%t, whatever what they do"
> Don't ban me bro



Then you trolled and pretty much deserved it. It's not like you didn't see it coming anyway.


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## douglatins (Jan 21, 2011)

Frick said:


> Then you trolled and pretty much deserved it. It's not like you didn't see it coming anyway.



 to you then LOL

No, not really, imho, but whatever, i have a new account to keep safely trolling


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## Swamp Monster (Jan 21, 2011)

I have heard that Apple uses about twice as much sensors to controll temperature, than PC's, and overall build quality is very good, but I just don't like what they do with preventing users to upgrade. And people usually think that mac pro are so much faster than PC's. It is pointless to tell them that for the same money they can buy even better PC. If they want superb quality and multi processor - buy server parts!


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## newtekie1 (Jan 21, 2011)

CJCerny said:


> This topic is a non-starter. Apple certainly isn't the only company that attempts to keep you from accessing and/or swapping hardware that they don't want you messing with. Torx and others have been around for years and are used by an infinite number of companies as is the "your warranty is void if this sticker is broken" concept. This is just an Apple hate troll. Apple makes nice toys that a lot of people are willing to pay good money for. You don't have to bash them or make them into an evil empire because they choose to run their business in a certain way or because you think their products are overpriced.



There is a difference.  Torx is a standard, not a propriatary screw head like what apple is using, and 90% of the other computer companies out there use standard phillips anyway, and the others use standardized torx.

And the warranty sticker still allows the user to access components if they _want_ to, say if they want to upgrade after the warranty is over. If it is just a warranty thing, can I take my laptop in once the warranty is up and have Apple remove these propriatary screws so I can change out my SSD or Battery if I decide?   No.  See, there is a big difference here.



Frick said:


> Not really. Apple's products are top notch. They are high quality. For the things you actually get (size, weight, battery life and looks are all feutures) the prices are spot on. I usually don't agree with them and I don't care much for how they do software, but hardwarewise it's usually spot on (this might not be true with Mac Pro's though).



Not really, usually the only thing that makes them "top notch" is a pretty casing.  Once you get inside they are the same crap you find in every other brand.  I was speccing out an Apple for a web developer friend, the base model Macbook Pro 15" actually.   Spec wise it had a 2.4GHz Core i5, 4GB of RAM, and 320GB Hard Drive, and of course that pretty white shell, and it was $1800!  I bought almost the identically specced notebook of newegg, an HP, for $490...  And the HP is actually incredibly well build and solid.  Now there are some exception, the Macbook Air is one of those niche products that really has no competition and probably deserves a little price premium because it is unique.

Now the Iphone is something else.  I just got rid of my Iphone4(and ATT) in favor of the DroidX(with Verizon) and I'm amazed with the DroidX.  The Iphone4 wasn't any better than the DroidX, if anything I like the DroidX better because it has far more free useful apps than the Iphone. Plus it has HDMI out right on the phone so I can connect it to my TV and watch videos I have stored on it right on the TV(great for travelling with hotel TVs).  Battery life isn't as good as the Iphone, but it still lasts over a day, so it doesn't bother me one bit. Oh, and then there was the fact that the 16GB model was $50 less than the Iphone5, and for $50 I could upgrade the DroidX _myself_ to 32GB...

I think the whole "Apple is higher quailty" idea is just BS, after using their products for years, that people tell themselves to justify paying higher prices for the same product.


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

I can give you the Macbooks, they are kinda overpriced, but I bet you didn't get the same battery life from the HP. Also I can bet that the Mac was lighter and had a better monitor.

And that you *prefer *the DroidX over iPhone is no indication that it's any better than it. HDMI is pretty awesome, but more useful apps? Doesn't matter imo, not when talking hardware. The memory thing is boring.

I'm not saying I actually like Apple, I would never buy anything from them, but I think they deserve some credit. They get bashed all the time on this forum, often unfairly.


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## newtekie1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Frick said:


> I can give you the Macbooks, they are kinda overpriced, but I bet you didn't get the same battery life from the HP. Also I can bet that the Mac was lighter and had a better monitor.
> 
> And that you *prefer *the DroidX over iPhone is no indication that it's any better than it. HDMI is pretty awesome, but more useful apps? Doesn't matter imo, not when talking hardware. The memory thing is boring.
> 
> I'm not saying I actually like Apple, I would never buy anything from them, but I think they deserve some credit. They get bashed all the time on this forum, often unfairly.



Battery life, surprisingly isn't that far off.  In real world use the Macbook Pro 15" gets just under 3 hours.  The HP is getting just over 2 hours, there is about a 45 Minute difference.  But for the $1300, go buy a second battery for the HP and be happy.

Weight wise the HP is actually 0.1# lighter than the Macboo Pro.  Though we couldn't tell the difference.

I will give it to you that the Macbook has a slightly higher resolution@ 1440x900 vs. the HPs 1366x768.  But again, we are talking a $1300 price difference.  I just don't see that being reasonable.

We had both laptops sitting side by side, and we just couldn't figure out why the Macbook Pro was $1300 more. Yes it had a gimmicky all aluminum case, but the HP had metal(not sure what type) on the LCD lid and palm rest, only the bottom was plastic, which IMO is more than sturdy enough.

And the memory issue on the Iphone4 is far from boring, if hardware is your concern.  You are just dismissing it because it is a huge flaw.  When I could get a 32GB DroidX for the price of the 16GB Iphone4, that is a huge thing.  Other than that, there isn't much else between the two hardware wise.  The DroidX has a bigger screen, but the Ipone4's display is higher resolution.  The DroidX also has an FM Tuner, and Flash support.  All this isn't me saying the Iphone4 is bad though, it is a great phone.

I'm not saying this to bash them, I'm just saying it.  If they don't like, then they can lower their prices to be more inline with what they sell and not overprice their products.  The products are actually good, just overpriced.  But this using propriatary screws to prevent users from accessing hardware they own is total BS.


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## trickson (Jan 21, 2011)

LOL ! Keeping all you tweekers out of there shit ? Keeping you from Upgrading with out there consent ? LOL ! Why any one would buy up all that Apple crap is beyond me . I have never bought any thing Apple ever nor Mac ! LOL keep up the great innovations Steve ! You have changed the WORLD with all that i crap !


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## Red_Machine (Jan 21, 2011)

trickson said:


> I have never bought any thing Apple ever nor Mac !



If you buy something Mac, you've bought something Apple.  No need to include it.


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## kid41212003 (Jan 21, 2011)

Apple wastes money on these "security torx screws" (not real one) which increase the product's price, and these protection don't benefit consumers at all.


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## trickson (Jan 21, 2011)

Red_Machine said:


> If you buy something Mac, you've bought something Apple.  No need to include it.



UM yeah I know this . I was covering all bases . I hate Apple it really is crap IMHO .


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 21, 2011)

kid41212003 said:


> Apple wastes money on these "security torx screws" (not real one) which increase the product's price, and these protection don't benefit consumers at all.



when the consumers of apple products give a crap about price or what the benefits are of having an iMac are other then just because they look cool in white, then i'l let you know.


IMO you could have an iMac with a dual beverage cooler built in and people would still jump through hoops of fire to buy it reguardless of the price.


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## Delta6326 (Jan 21, 2011)

everyone knows the best way to open a mac is by smashing it.

Sadly im using a mac right now and let me tell you it has froze up 3+ in the last 4 hours!! these do truly suck, and sooooo slow it lags if i have web with video, itunes, and word up:shadedshu


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> And the memory issue on the Iphone4 is far from boring, if hardware is your concern.  You are just dismissing it because it is a huge flaw.  When I could get a 32GB DroidX for the price of the 16GB Iphone4, that is a huge thing.  Other than that, there isn't much else between the two hardware wise.  The DroidX has a bigger screen, but the Ipone4's display is higher resolution.  The DroidX also has an FM Tuner, and Flash support.  All this isn't me saying the Iphone4 is bad though, it is a great phone.



I meant boring as in "bad". 

I am kinda suprised at the HP thing though. I would imagine the image quality of the Mac he had would be better than the Mac. But thanks for enlightening me.


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## trickson (Jan 21, 2011)

But wasn't it Steve Jobs that invented the PC ? WOW ! Did any one hear how they talked about him on FOX and CNN ? They made it sound as if he was a god of the times . With all the ipad this and ipod that Jesus hit me with a whiffle ball bat !


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## Frick (Jan 21, 2011)

trickson said:


> But wasn't it Steve Jobs that invented the PC ? WOW ! Did any one hear how they talked about him on FOX and CNN ? They made it sound as if he was a god of the times . With all the ipad this and ipod that Jesus hit me with a whiffle ball bat !



I bet people worship him.


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## Red_Machine (Jan 21, 2011)

The "PC" as we refer to it these days, descends from the IBM Model 5150 (or IBM PC).  Apple products are "personal computers" but NOT "PCs", kinda confusing I know...


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## kid41212003 (Jan 21, 2011)

I smell thread-lock, lol....


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## Completely Bonkers (Jan 21, 2011)

Whether you like Steve or Apple and their iProduct catalogue or not, the guy deserves a lot more respect than the kind of attention a popstar / moviestar / footballer gets.

He has really transformed the consumer space. Hat's off to him, job (lol) well done.


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## RejZoR (Jan 21, 2011)

Only thing that i like about Apple is iPhone 4 glass sandwich. The phone is a bit more fragile when doing a close encounter with concrete or asphalt, but the glass is something you don't see too often (at all) on such devices. I'd love to have my Samsung Wave with a glass surface on both sides. Gorilla Glass preferably...


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## Wrigleyvillain (Jan 21, 2011)

Yeah and how many non-techy people do you know who actually have the skills to swap out their own RAM much less a hard disk? Of all the consumer-freedom-thwarting crap that companies pull in the name of their own protection this is hardly even close to the most egregious. You anti-fanboys just hate Apple. Same poop, different scoop.

Anti-fanboys are even worse cause it's just unwarranted and unfair hive-mind negativity.


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## wolf (Jan 21, 2011)

I love laughing at smug mac owners  then the smile fades from their face after you drop the bomb;

but can it play crysis? (half as well as my rig which is half the cost)

if you buy apple gear you deserve for them to put these screws in.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Jan 21, 2011)

Who the hell do you know who even knows what Crysis and then buys a Mac?

Ridiculous. Apples to oranges man, no pun intended.


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## horik (Jan 21, 2011)

mac mac


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## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> Yeah and how many non-techy people do you know who actually have the skills to swap out their own RAM much less a hard disk? Of all the consumer-freedom-thwarting crap that companies pull in the name of their own protection this is hardly even close to the most egregious. You anti-fanboys just hate Apple. Same poop, different scoop.
> 
> Anti-fanboys are even worse cause it's just unwarranted and unfair hive-mind negativity.



Yup the general feeling at TPU is quite anti Mac because of their nasty control freakery and ridiculous prices - and it's one of the things I love about this place.


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## Mussels (Jan 22, 2011)

TPU is quite anti apple (not officially, just large portions of the user base), because their products have so many damn flaws and drawbacks compared to other companies products.


oh yay, better battery life by a few minutes? well, try doing something that a real smart phone can do and see how its battery life goes. i can run two browsers with 5 tabs (windows, as it calls it) each, a torrent program, MP3 player, camera, VOIP/SIP phone and share my 3G internet over wifi... all at the same time. my phones from 2007.

sure, my battery life goes to about 8 hours when i do that... but changing to an apple phone that has three times the battery life doesnt mean squat when it loses all the FEATURES.


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## trickson (Jan 22, 2011)

Frick said:


> I bet people worship him.



Yes they do with comments such as , The world will never be the same with out him and no one can replace him ever !


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## wahdangun (Jan 22, 2011)

Frick said:


> People are suckers for buying quality hardware? I'm no fan of apple meself, but the things they make are of high quality, and if people want to pay a premium for that (and the looks if you like that sort of thing) just let them.
> 
> This is a bit too much though.





Frick said:


> I can give you the Macbooks, they are kinda overpriced, but I bet you didn't get the same battery life from the HP. Also I can bet that the Mac was lighter and had a better monitor.
> 
> And that you *prefer *the DroidX over iPhone is no indication that it's any better than it. HDMI is pretty awesome, but more useful apps? Doesn't matter imo, not when talking hardware. The memory thing is boring.
> 
> I'm not saying I actually like Apple, I would never buy anything from them, but I think they deserve some credit. They get bashed all the time on this forum, often unfairly.





Frick said:


> Not really. Apple's products are top notch. They are high quality. For the things you actually get (size, weight, battery life and looks are all feutures) the prices are spot on. I usually don't agree with them and I don't care much for how they do software, but hardwarewise it's usually spot on (this might not be true with Mac Pro's though).



what ?? are you being sarcastic ?

did you ever heard apple imac yellow screen problem ?? or recently iPhone4 antenagate ?

and iphone/iPad overheating problem?? hell they product was build by blood of worker thats work on foxcon factory


----------



## Kantastic (Jan 22, 2011)

Mussels said:


> TPU is quite anti apple (not officially, just large portions of the user base), because their products have so many damn flaws and drawbacks compared to other companies products.
> 
> 
> oh yay, better battery life by a few minutes? well, try doing something that a real smart phone can do and see how its battery life goes. i can run two browsers with 5 tabs (windows, as it calls it) each, a torrent program, MP3 player, camera, VOIP/SIP phone and share my 3G internet over wifi... all at the same time. my phones from 2007.
> ...



That's because we're part of the small consumer base that demands more from our hardware. 10 out of 10 people will tell you they're completely satisfied with their Apple products, otherwise the company would have long been out of business. I honestly see nothing wrong with Apple products, however, I do admit I have never purchased one myself. 

Who are you and I (speaking to the general community base on this forum) to hate on Apple and it's users? If the customers are happy and the company is doing well, whatever!

I hate HP & Sony because of crap customer support/products I've purchased. How many Apple haters have ever used an Apple product and genuinely did not like it?


----------



## hellrazor (Jan 22, 2011)

So Apple doesn't let you do something you should be able to do and it makes the news?

Big surprise.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 22, 2011)

hellrazor said:


> So Apple doesn't let you do something you should be able to do and it makes the news?
> 
> Big surprise.



if we DONT make it news, then more and more people get sucked into buying apple products thinking they're awesome.


you might say its their own fault, but some of us dont like seeing friends and relatives get ripped off buying overpriced crap - so we make sure the word gets spread about this stuff.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 22, 2011)

Kantastic said:


> Who are you and I (speaking to the general community base on this forum) to hate on Apple and it's users? If the customers are happy and the company is doing well, whatever!
> 
> I hate HP & Sony because of crap customer support/products I've purchased. How many Apple haters have ever used an Apple product and genuinely did not like it?



In my case, i have a lot of experience dealing with apple customers. almost all of them have used apple exclusively, or compare expensive apple products to other products at 1/3 the price or less.

EG, $500 dell vs $3000 mac.


these same people often come to me for help fixing their apple problems (lately, macbooks and ipods - no iphone users so far) and i always do ask them: why did you choose apple, do you think it was worth it?

they then either list marketing spiel or a list of 'features' they've been told are apple exclusive. "oh i can download music" "it plays music AND movies" or "its faster than a PC"


quite often i let them use my stuff (which is high end, but actually similar cost to the apple products a lot of the time) and maybe 2 out of 3 end up converting away from apple.


my dislike of apple products is not bias - its experience.


For a good example with this screw bullshit: if your laptops out of warranty and the hard drive dies, what do mac users do? they have to buy a new laptop. PC users can (usually) replace the hard drive with just one or two screws, saving a ton of money in the process.


----------



## wahdangun (Jan 22, 2011)

i think not all apple product was bad, there are actually some good product from them like apple cinema display (although i don't like the recent model, because of glossy screen)

but anything else is meh, apple is just like sonny


----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> Battery life, surprisingly isn't that far off.  In real world use the Macbook Pro 15" gets just under 3 hours.  The HP is getting just over 2 hours, there is about a 45 Minute difference.  But for the $1300, go buy a second battery for the HP and be happy.
> 
> Weight wise the HP is actually 0.1# lighter than the Macboo Pro.  Though we couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> ...



Then why aren't you bitching at Nintendo for doing this to their consoles?


----------



## newtekie1 (Jan 22, 2011)

Mussels said:


> For a good example with this screw bullshit: if your laptops out of warranty and the hard drive dies, what do mac users do? they have to buy a new laptop.



Or take it to an Apple store, because "they are the only ones that can work on Apples", and pay $600 for a replacement hard drive plus labor, but it is better than the alternative of buying brand new equivalant Apple product.



Wile E said:


> Then why aren't you bitching at Nintendo for doing this to their consoles?



Because there hasn't been anything worth openning a Nintendo console for in generations.  It isn't like there are basic common upgrades that the average user would want to and could do with a nintendo console that they are blocking like Apple is doing.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 22, 2011)

Wile E said:


> Then why aren't you bitching at Nintendo for doing this to their consoles?



i certainly give the wii a kick up the butt for its flaws. i run my wii games through an emulator now on PC, higher res, better textures and higher FPS XD


----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2011)

FreedomEclipse said:


> when the consumers of apple products give a crap about price or what the benefits are of having an iMac are other then just because they look cool in white, then i'l let you know.
> 
> 
> IMO you could have an iMac with a dual beverage cooler built in and people would still jump through hoops of fire to buy it reguardless of the price.



Just to point out, no other all-in-one has an IPS panel. iMac does have some benefits over it's competitors, and is not effected by these oddball screws, AFAIK.

Apple does have some things that are worth what they charge.


newtekie1 said:


> Or take it to an Apple store, because "they are the only ones that can work on Apples", and pay $600 for a replacement hard drive plus labor, but it is better than the alternative of buying brand new equivalant Apple product.
> 
> 
> 
> Because there hasn't been anything worth openning a Nintendo console for in generations.


I own a couple Apple products, and still work on them myself.

I opened my Wii to mod chip it. Easier to deal with than updating softmods.


This whole thing is just making a mountain out of a molehill. Typical of this forum at times, tbh.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jan 22, 2011)

Wile E said:


> Just to point out, no other all-in-one has an IPS panel. iMac does have some benefits over it's competitors, and is not effected by these oddball screws, AFAIK.
> 
> Apple does have some things that are worth what they charge.



They have a few benefits, but none that make them worth what they charge.  And often times the negatives outweigh the benefits.



Wile E said:


> I own a couple Apple products, and still work on them myself.
> 
> I opened my Wii to mod chip it. Easier to deal with than updating softmods.



I editted the post, I meant there isn't anything worth openning the console that the average users  is concerned with.


----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2011)

newtekie1 said:


> They have a few benefits, but none that make them worth what they charge.  And often times the negatives outweigh the benefits.
> 
> 
> 
> I editted the post, I meant there isn't anything worth openning the console that the average users  is concerned with.


Actually, the iMac is worth every penny of what they charge, as is the base model Mac Pro, and a couple other things. Never buy upgrades at Apple however, you will get raped. Not here to discuss the horribly anti-Apple bias in these forums tho. It's like blindly devoted Apple fanboys, only in reverse. They have pros and cons, just like every other OEM machine/pmp/smart phone in existence. 

There isn't anything worth opening the iPhone4 that the average users are concerned with.

And the user that is savvy enough to open their electronics for upgrades and maintenance, is savvy enough to Google search for the tool needed to do the job.

Again, mountain out of a molehill. This doesn't effect anyone that can't figure out how to get around it.


----------



## newtekie1 (Jan 22, 2011)

Wile E said:


> Actually, the iMac is worth every penny of what they charge, as is the base model Mac Pro, and a couple other things. Never buy upgrades at Apple however, you will get raped. Not here to discuss the horribly anti-Apple bias in these forums tho. It's like blindly devoted Apple fanboys, only in reverse. They have pros and cons, just like every other OEM machine/pmp/smart phone in existence.
> 
> There isn't anything worth opening the iPhone4 that the average users are concerned with.
> 
> ...



I would disagree with them being worth every penny they charge, but as you said that is another topic.  I will say they are very good products, just not worth the money.

I also don't care about the special screws in the IPhone4.  I'm more concerned with the screws being used on the Macbooks.  There certainly are some parts inside of those, HDD/SDD and Battery and RAM, that the average user would want to upgrade.  And yes, they probably could do a search for the right tool, but they shouldn't have to.


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

Mussels said:


> i certainly give the wii a kick up the butt for its flaws. i run my wii games through an emulator now on PC, higher res, better textures and higher FPS XD



So you can emulate a Wii game with better quality on a PC than on the original hardware? Wow, that's got to be worth one of these:


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jan 22, 2011)

glad to see a lot of nerd rage being vented in here tonight. makes me feel safer walking the streets.


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

And to all those defending Apple here and criticising us for hating their sorry ass, I haven't seen you give a single concrete reason why they should be bought in preference to other brands.

For example, claiming 10 out of 10 satisfaction is untrue, smacks of fanboism and doesn't mean the product is better.

However, lots of good, concrete arguments have been against giving Jobs your precious money.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jan 22, 2011)

it is no surprise to me that people who enjoy building their own rigs, upgrading them, overclocking them, modding them and playing games on them would not understand why others purposefully buy a mac. it is ok to buy a computer because you like the operating system and the way the body looks. a lot of people are afraid of computers and want something that feels simple to operate. there is nothing wrong with that. like i said, a lot of nerd rage being vented here. i guess this is just another opportunity for people to feel superior to others.


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> it is no surprise to me that people who enjoy building their own rigs, upgrading them, overclocking them, modding them and playing games on them would not understand why others purposefully buy a mac. it is ok to buy a computer because you like the operating system and the way the body looks. a lot of people are afraid of computers and want something that feels simple to operate. there is nothing wrong with that. like i said, a lot of nerd rage being vented here. i guess this is just another opportunity for people to feel superior to others.



This is just another way of saying that Apple gouges their hapless, ignorant customers. They bleed them dry and control every little thing they can do with them. The trouble with stuff like this, is that if a company becomes successful with tactics like this, then the rest of of the bloody market follows it and the likes of us get stuck with this shit. And that's infuriating.  Unfortunately, Apple seem to be on the rise with this. Just take a look at the iPad. It got panned in quite a lot of reviews for some very obvious shortcomings. Yet despite this and an inflated price tag, it sells in the millions. And now look, lots of other manufacturers are doing the same thing.

It's not nerd rage here, it's people who know better.

Just take a look at what Mussels said: 2/3 of people he's let compare their Mac with his PC have switched over to a PC. That says a lot about Apple products.


----------



## n-ster (Jan 22, 2011)

While apple is not entirely bad, and they have lowered their prices recently... by quite a bit, and they do have some niche markets where they are the only ones doing ths so no competition (therefore if you want an IPS All-in-one, it's Mac or nothing),They are not at all "better quality" IMO

[QUOTE="WirigleyVillain]How many non-techy people do you know who actually have the skills to swap out their own RAM much less their Hard Drive?[/QUOTE]

Probably everyone. Everyone has the skills,they just are too scared. Call me a genius, but I successfully assembled a computer FROM SCRATCH at 7 years old. Granted it took me like 3+ hours and my dad installed the CPU cooler and I couldn't lift the case to put it straight, but it actually worked! My 12 year old cousin was smart enough to take out his hard drive from his computer and put it in his big brothers computer, and take the Hard drive of his big brother into his computer to steal a game XD (it worked as both were fresh installs and the same exact computer except for the case).

People are just to damn scared and a minority are just to damn lazy and filthy rich.

@Frick

Apple's "high quality" stuff is BS. Call old IBM laptops and keyboards "high quality", new that is true. My sister's 13" Macbook Pro mid-2009 that cost us OVER 2200$ CAD (at the time it was 1$CAD:1$USD. now CAD is stronger lol) is PAINFULLY slow. Not to mention it's damn heavy for a 13" IMO (1.1 lbs more than the 13" laptops at work). I litteraly helped 7 of her friends for at least 1 hour each for various problems. It 3 of them was because they didn't understand how to use a mac and thought it was TOO DAMN COMPLICATED (Mac simple? huh?). 1 of them had faulty hardware.
Between my cousin and his 3 friends who all have Iphones, only one did not break their Iphone, and 2 of them broke it TWICE. I've seen one fall in front of my eyes and couldn't believe it broke. We were SITTING and he dropped his brand new Iphone 3GS, the screen was COMPLETELY CRACKED., the phone still worked, but ALL and ANY text was unreadable.


There are far more PC users than Apple users, so you don't here much about apple problems, and since Apple targets a higher-end market, alot of the people just go to apple store to repair it and STFU instead of complaining. Not to mention alot of them are die-hard Apple fans and wouldn't complaining online or to friends at all.

I have a Jailbroken Ipod Touch (free with my sister's MBP) and I love it, but I still think that Apple is no better than their competitors from which I buy from


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> This is just another way of saying that Apple gouges their hapless, ignorant customers. They bleed them dry and control every little thing they can do with them. The trouble with stuff like this, is that if a company becomes successful with tactics like this, then the rest of of the bloody market follows it and the likes of us get stuck with this shit. And that's infuriating.



apple has been very successful selling macs for years and the pc still exists and dominates the market. you dont have to worry. 



> Unfortunately, Apple seem to be on the rise with this. Just take a look at the iPad. It got panned in quite a lot of reviews for some very obvious shortcomings. Yet despite this and an inflated price tag, it sells in the millions. And now look, lots of other manufacturers are doing the same thing.



so? 



> It's not nerd rage here, it's people who know better.
> 
> Just take a look at what Mussels said: 2/3 of people he's let compare their Mac with his PC have switched over to a PC. That says a lot about Apple products.



a lot of people like OSX and like the way Macs look. nothing wrong with that.


----------



## n-ster (Jan 22, 2011)

The Apple look is what sells the most IMO... I know half my school has macs cuz it's cool. They have an older laptop for anything that doesn't work on the macs lol. Since looks aren't that important to me, and I personally only somewhat like the mac look, it's hard for me to agree on it being justifiable to purchase apple products for the look. Another thing that surprisingly sells, is that zoom-in thing with 2 fingers. I'm wondering why almost no manufacturers do the same?

Ipad is an AWESOME idea and helped popularize tablets. what sucks is the implementation. But they marketed it so well that they sold an enormous mount. The Ipad is an enlarged Ipod touch.

I still don't like apple. Though they did make me some $$ in the stocks


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> so?



So, the market gets flooded with high priced, mediocre kit with "app stores" that lock you into a walled garden. What the hell is an iPad-like device _genuinely_ useful for anyway that a cheaper laptop/netbook with a proper keyboard can't do better?

When using it, it ties up a hand constantly, the touchscreen interface has no tactile feel and dumbs down everything.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> a lot of people like OSX and like the way Macs look. nothing wrong with that.


...but do they really or do they only like it because Apple told them to like it?


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> So, the market gets flooded with high priced, mediocre kit with "app stores" that lock you into a walled garden. What the hell is an iPad-like device _genuinely_ useful for anyway that a cheaper laptop/netbook with a proper keyboard can't do better?
> 
> When using it, it ties up a hand constantly, the touchscreen interface has no tactile feel and dumbs down everything.



then don't buy one?



FordGT90Concept said:


> ...but do they really or do they only like it because Apple told them to like it?



if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it then does it make a sound?


----------



## n-ster (Jan 22, 2011)

FordGT90Concept said:


> ...but do they really or do they only like it because Apple told them to like it?



You can't bash Apple for their insanely good marketing... I bet they have the best psychologists n shit because seriously, their marketing is genius. They could sell a dead mouse with a half-eaten apple tatooed on it's stomach for fortune if they wanted to (ofc they would lose some fan-base, but it would still work xD)

In this sense, yes you can bash apple fans fairly


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> then don't buy one?



Of course I won't buy one. My point is that consumer choice starts to become limited to these kinds of devices. At the extreme end of the scale, if a rubbish product type becomes too popular, it marginalizes the better ones out of the market and one is stuck with getting that or nothing.

Even if this doesn't happen, it can end up inflating the prices of the better products and reducing choice.

This is what bothers me and it does happen.

Re your previous comment about PCs dominating the market. Yes, they do now, but the market for them is starting to get eroded by these inferior devices. I wouldn't bank on the PC market with it's high performance computers, with reasonably priced hardware and software upgrades and peripherals dominating in the next five years.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it then does it make a sound?


It does but I don't see how that is relevant...or is that the point you are trying to make? 




n-ster said:


> You can't bash Apple for their insanely good marketing... I bet they have the best psychologists n shit because seriously, their marketing is genius. They could sell a dead mouse with a half-eaten apple tatooed on it's stomach for fortune if they wanted to (ofc they would lose some fan-base, but it would still work xD)
> 
> In this sense, yes you can bash apple fans fairly


I wouldn't dare bash Apple's marketing.  They're probably better at brain washing than the CIA and serious, I am.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> Of course I won't buy one. My point is that consumer choice starts to become limited to these kinds of devices. At the extreme end of the scale, if a rubbish product type becomes too popular, it marginalizes the better ones out of the market and one is stuck with getting that or nothing.
> 
> Even if this doesn't happen, it can end up inflating the prices of the better products and reducing choice.
> 
> ...



if a product is rubbish then eventually people will move onto another product. it happens all the time. truth is, the ipad is not rubbish nor are apple products. the people here just dont like them because you cant overclock them or mod them or do any upgrades to them without paying an ass ton. apple has found a very powerful niche to sell to. more power to them. technology changes quickly and products come and go over time. there are fluctuations in the marketplace and sometimes good products get pushed out. 



			
				FordGT90Concept said:
			
		

> ...or is that the point you are trying to make?



my point is it is impossible to know. we could spend hours arguing in circles though if you prefer


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> if a product is rubbish then eventually people will move onto another product. it happens all the time.



Unfortunately, that's not necessarily true. Brand image and marketing are more important to a product's survival than geniune technical excellence. Think VHS v Betamax.



Easy Rhino said:


> truth is, the ipad is not rubbish nor are apple products. the people here just dont like them because you cant overclock them or mod them or do any upgrades to them without paying an ass ton. apple has found a very powerful niche to sell to. more power to them. technology changes quickly and products come and go over time. there are fluctuations in the marketplace and sometimes good products get pushed out.



I'd still like to see just one example of how an iPad is genuinly superior to a notebook or netbook, which it's edging out. I'm not being funny with this question, I'd really like to see somone try and defend this. I doubt that I'll get a convincing answer.

And no, you can't just brush off the anti Apple sentiment as being because they can't be overclocked or modded by a fringe group of enthusiasts. And yes, being ripped off by being locked into buying "Apple only" overpriced upgrades is a genuine reason to criticise them. They also have limited hardware choices with things such as graphics cards. You have a choice of hundreds for a PC from the whole market, but only a few "Apple approved" ones with a special BIOS for a Mac. This sounds like a dictatorship to me.

Can you even put a GTX 580 in an Apple, for instance? Or does it need a special "Apple" BIOS? Does an Apple desktop even have a PSU beefy enough to run one? I doubt it. You can't buy one either, not even an Apple made one at an inflated price. This is definitely something to bitch about.

These are all fine examples of the market being led by the will of Steve Jobs, rather than Apple meeting customer demand, which is what should be happening. No wonder phrases like "Cult of Mac" and "Reality distortion field" are bandied about so much.


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## DaedalusHelios (Jan 22, 2011)

Apple products are great for people that aren't tech saavy. I was using PowerMacs with motorola processors back in the day for photoshop before they idiot proofed everything. Now Apple is a PC with training wheels. Especially with OSX onward. Crippled, overpriced, and the easiest to use option out there. Their market is "ease of use" and "function follows form". PC's are "bang for buck","form follows function", and "strength from diversity".


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## n-ster (Jan 22, 2011)

I don't see how OSX is easy to use... most people are used to windows and the adaptation to OSX is far from easy


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> Can you even put a GTX 580 in an Apple, for instance? Or does it need a special "Apple" BIOS? Does an Apple desktop even have a PSU beefy enough to run one? I doubt it. You can't buy one either, not even an Apple made one at an inflated price. This is definitely something to bitch about.




You are referring to EFI which requires the driver to be built into it basically. For the longest time Apple said only they can make Apple OS computers. There was a brief time they allowed others to create Mac OS computers and I had one when they came out. They were branded PowerMacs and they had IDE rather than the overpriced SCSI at the time. They were cheaper and performed the same. I put PC optical drives in it. I even installed an IDE CD burner and an IDE dvd rom in it from a PC build I had. Saved alot of money that way. 



n-ster said:


> I don't see how OSX is easy to use... most people are used to windows and the adaptation to OSX is far from easy



No drivers to worry about. No real threat of viruses from clicking on things that even a monkey would be nervous about(exploits/malware not compatible with its OS) . Up until recently their mice only used one button so you couldn't get confused from more buttons and so on.


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## pr0n Inspector (Jan 22, 2011)

Looks like the "if you don't know computers inside-out you should be shot dead" mob is out doing crazy dances again.

Guess what? whatever you do in life there's always a group of people looking down on you too.


----------



## qubit (Jan 22, 2011)

DaedalusHelios said:


> You are referring to EFI which requires the driver to be built into it basically. For the longest time Apple said only they can make Apple OS computers. There was a brief time they allowed others to create Mac OS computers and I had one when they came out. They were branded PowerMacs and they had IDE rather than the overpriced SCSI at the time. They were cheaper and performed the same. I put PC optical drives in it. I even installed an IDE CD burner and an IDE dvd rom in it from a PC build I had. Saved alot of money that way.



Restricted graphics cards was true even before they went EFI. When (if?) EFI becomes standard on PCs, you will still be able to choose from the whole market and Apples will still be restricted, I reckon.

Locking out other companies from building clones is a classic example of their control freakery to keep the computers high priced and under their total control. Man, I aint paying for that.


----------



## wolf (Jan 22, 2011)




----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> Unfortunately, that's not necessarily true. Brand image and marketing are more important to a product's survival than geniune technical excellence. Think VHS v Betamax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First, not all Apple products are overpriced. We can go into specifics if you like, but Mac Mini, iMac and MacPro are very fairly priced in their base configs.

Second, you have to compare them to other OEM computers with the same features and specs, not home built, as that's not a fair comparison.

Third, iPad serves a niche that a netbook does not. Those that want a touch screen tablet, are not looking to buy something with a keyboard. Show me a capacitive, multi-touch netbook for cheaper, and we'll talk. I do feel it's overpriced, but then again, I'm not it's target market. I would never own one unless it came in under $300.

Fourth, Apple does not cater to an upgrader. Doesn't mean you can't upgrade. I can throw a 580 into a MacPro no problem, and most of the models have plenty of juice to run it, too. You can also throw upgraded cpus in them, or upgraded ram. Plenty of things. As much as a regular PC? No, but that doesn't change the fact that they are upgradeable.

And how is it a dictatorship? Is anyone forcing you to buy Apple products? No they are not. 

I own an iMac, and an iPhone 3GS 16GB. I don't suffer from the walled garden problem, because I do my research. That said, I'm going Android for my next phone.


----------



## r9 (Jan 22, 2011)

I would glue the damn thing together .


----------



## DaedalusHelios (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> Restricted graphics cards was true even before they went EFI. When (if?) EFI becomes standard on PCs, you will still be able to choose from the whole market and Apples will still be restricted, I reckon.
> 
> Locking out other companies from building clones is a classic example of their control freakery to keep the computers high priced and under their total control. Man, I aint paying for that.



I believe they are taking advantage of the people that fall victim to its closed market propaganda. They have been doing that for years. I believe you may be looking at it wrong though. Your perspective is the minority. You don't need a GTX 580 for what Macs are built for. Although steam may create a larger Mac gaming demographic and change that.



qubit said:


> *Restricted graphics cards was true even before they went EFI.* When (if?) EFI becomes standard on PCs, you will still be able to choose from the whole market and Apples will still be restricted, I reckon.
> 
> Locking out other companies from building clones is a classic example of their control freakery to keep the computers high priced and under their total control. Man, I aint paying for that.



I know man. I used to flash them to use them on Mac(Quake baby! ). It was common for techies at the time.


----------



## Wile E (Jan 22, 2011)

wolf said:


> http://img.techpowerup.org/110122/tf2mac10179.jpg



lol. But that actually DOES have mouse 2. Just tap the right side like any other mouse. I still hate the damn thing tho. I use a Death Adder on the iMac.


----------



## Frick (Jan 22, 2011)

To everyone correcting me for saying Apple products are top notch: I will bend a bit, but I will still maintain they generally have a higher quality than other things (maybe not enough to justify the pricing on lets say the Macbook Pro, but still!).


----------



## MohawkAngel (Jan 22, 2011)

pr0n Inspector said:


> Looks like the "if you don't know computers inside-out you should be shot dead" mob is out doing crazy dances again.
> 
> Guess what? whatever you do in life there's always a group of people looking down on you too.



You are right on that one. Can I just know what the hell are you reading to have of signature like that?


----------



## Bundy (Jan 22, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it then does it make a sound?



As apples use the latest quantum technology, the tree doesn't actually fall until you heard it.

OT: I helped a mate fix a mac earlier this year. TBH I was a little sad in the end that the parts were _exactly_ the same a standard laptop parts. It wasn't even very difficult to fix.

 I like Apple stuff though because they have got the right way of selling consumer goods. They make sure the hardware is compatible with the software and then make it wasy to use. There are some PC OEM's that could learn a bit from this.

I wouldn't pay the extra for a Apple product because there is no benefit for me. i'm quite happy to support my friends who have bought them though.

As for the funny lil screws, well that just adds more $ to the price and I'm not too sure this benefits anyone really.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Jan 22, 2011)

Bundy said:


> As apples use the latest quantum technology, the tree doesn't actually fall until you heard it.
> 
> OT: I helped a mate fix a mac earlier this year. TBH I was a little sad in the end that the parts were _exactly_ the same a standard laptop parts. It wasn't even very difficult to fix.
> 
> ...



Theirs plenty of laptop and desktop manufacturers that offer a fairly simple setup (ala all of them).

Apple's marketing is, "WERE BETTER! DONT ASK WHY THO"


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## pr0n Inspector (Jan 22, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> You are right on that one. Can I just know what the hell are you reading to have of signature like that?



Some old books written by a guy called James.


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## Wile E (Jan 22, 2011)

ShiBDiB said:


> Theirs plenty of laptop and desktop manufacturers that offer a fairly simple setup (ala all of them).
> 
> *Apple's marketing is, "WERE BETTER! DONT ASK WHY THO"*


So what? I really don't understand why their marketing gimmicks are constantly used as an argument against them. It doesn't magically make all of their products bad all of a sudden, which is really all that's important, not their commercials.


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## Bundy (Jan 22, 2011)

ShiBDiB said:


> Theirs plenty of laptop and desktop manufacturers that offer a fairly simple setup (ala all of them).
> 
> Apple's marketing is, "WERE BETTER! DONT ASK WHY THO"



Apple is still the simplest - it's not for me though.

And Apples marketing is targeted at people who don't want to ask why, or want to waste their time hearing an answer. It all seems ok to me.


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## Marineborn (Jan 22, 2011)

i laughed hard at that article, apple is so stupid they rip people off so much, people just accept it cause there too ignorant to be like hey i could get a better pc/desktop for 1000's less. *massive facepalm* i dont even try to talk to mac users anymore, i just let them wallow in there self righteousness, its not my money let them be dumb


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 22, 2011)

pr0n Inspector said:


> Some old books written by a guy called James.



So you're kindof pedo? :shadedshu


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## pr0n Inspector (Jan 22, 2011)

Marineborn said:


> i laughed hard at that article, apple is so stupid they rip people off so much, people just accept it cause there too ignorant to be like hey i could get a better pc/desktop for 1000's less. *massive facepalm* i dont even try to talk to mac users anymore, i just let them wallow in there self righteousness, its not my money let them be dumb



I'm sure a lot of people in the world think the same of you for things you don't even remotely care about.


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## silkstone (Jan 22, 2011)

I have a friend who recently bought a MAC Book pro for around $2k. He bought it as he thought everything was simple to use. 
He's had nothing but problems since,  He couldn't figure out how open office worked and got me to install MS Office on there. He can't connect to the internet at home as the ip setting are borked or something and no one here knows how to fix macs when they have problems. The nice shiny white case looks good, but get scratched real fast. It's only 6mo old and it looks like it's been through a few wars.

So now he is stuck with an expensive word processor that can only connect to the net when he is in a wi-fi area. He still thinks it's easier to use than a PC (all he does is browse the web and word process) and i just quietly laugh to myself.

Apple's marketing makes users believe that they really are easy to use. But just because they lack the advanced functionality of other computers and OS' doesn't mean that PCs are less easy. It just means they have more advanced features IF you want to use them.


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## n-ster (Jan 22, 2011)

Prices aren't THAT bad anymore, as long as you stick with the base and upgrade yourself (except for Macbook air as you can't upgrade yourself really)

The price [premium people pay for Macs aren't like they were a year or 2 ago

and I agree with the above.

How many times have I heard the zom in thing with 2 fingers though? why not implement it on laptops? seriously?


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 22, 2011)

qubit said:


> Unfortunately, that's not necessarily true. Brand image and marketing are more important to a product's survival than geniune technical excellence. Think VHS v Betamax.



it is true almost all of time. and even if the product that is not "as good" lasts longer then oh well. that is life. you can't always get what you want. go out and make your own better product.



> I'd still like to see just one example of how an iPad is genuinly superior to a notebook or netbook, which it's edging out. I'm not being funny with this question, I'd really like to see somone try and defend this. I doubt that I'll get a convincing answer.



they are not superior to a notebook or netbook from a technical point of view. but from a usefulness point of view they are. especially for designers who dont want to lug around their laptops to every site they visit.



> And no, you can't just brush off the anti Apple sentiment as being because they can't be overclocked or modded by a fringe group of enthusiasts. And yes, being ripped off by being locked into buying "Apple only" overpriced upgrades is a genuine reason to criticise them. They also have limited hardware choices with things such as graphics cards. You have a choice of hundreds for a PC from the whole market, but only a few "Apple approved" ones with a special BIOS for a Mac. This sounds like a dictatorship to me.



people make their own decisions about buying computer products. you are complaining because their reasons are different from yours. you sound like a child. 



> Can you even put a GTX 580 in an Apple, for instance? Or does it need a special "Apple" BIOS? Does an Apple desktop even have a PSU beefy enough to run one? I doubt it. You can't buy one either, not even an Apple made one at an inflated price. This is definitely something to bitch about.



exactly, you are bitching. nerd rage i call it. get over it. or have a heart attack. your choice.



> These are all fine examples of the market being led by the will of Steve Jobs, rather than Apple meeting customer demand, which is what should be happening. No wonder phrases like "Cult of Mac" and "Reality distortion field" are bandied about so much.



apple clearly is meeting customer demand considering the hundreds of millions of units they have sold.


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## MohawkAngel (Jan 22, 2011)

Replying to a guy like that calling him a raging nerd doesnt make you a nerd also?


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 23, 2011)

MohawkAngel said:


> Replying to a guy like that calling him a raging nerd doesnt make you a nerd also?



when i first stated nerd rage it was a general observation so it was not directed at anyone in particular. he spoke up in defense. but i never called anyone a raging nerd.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jan 23, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> they are not superior to a notebook or netbook from a technical point of view. but from a usefulness point of view they are. especially for designers who dont want to lug around their laptops to every site they visit.


One of my friends got an iPad for school.  Ever since we've been trying to figure out what it's used for.  It's pretty tough to write papers on it; it doesn't make sense to watch movies on it unless you're commuting; it makes a decent ereader but the battery life isn't so hot; you can browse the net with it easily enough but you're limited in your actions.

It just sits on his coffee table and we joke about how it is only decent when used for porn.  On the other hand he brings his laptop everywhere.

(I don't want/expect anyone to tell me what the iPad is used for.  I was merely making a joke/point.)


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## Wile E (Jan 23, 2011)

Marineborn said:


> i laughed hard at that article, apple is so stupid they rip people off so much, people just accept it cause there too ignorant to be like hey i could get a better pc/desktop for 1000's less. *massive facepalm* i dont even try to talk to mac users anymore, i just let them wallow in there self righteousness, its not my money let them be dumb


And you are comparing a home built rig to an OEM rig. Not a fair comparison. Compare Macs to other OEM computers with all teh same features and performance, and most of them cost exactly what they should. Laptops seem to be the main exception.


silkstone said:


> I have a friend who recently bought a MAC Book pro for around $2k. He bought it as he thought everything was simple to use.
> He's had nothing but problems since,  He couldn't figure out how open office worked and got me to install MS Office on there. He can't connect to the internet at home as the ip setting are borked or something and no one here knows how to fix macs when they have problems. The nice shiny white case looks good, but get scratched real fast. It's only 6mo old and it looks like it's been through a few wars.
> 
> So now he is stuck with an expensive word processor that can only connect to the net when he is in a wi-fi area. He still thinks it's easier to use than a PC (all he does is browse the web and word process) and i just quietly laugh to myself.
> ...


First off, him not being able to use Open Office has absoltuely nothing to do with it being a Mac. That only has to do with open office.

Secondly, being easy to use is purely subjective.

Lastly, all those "advanced features" are there in OS X as well. It's built on BSD, and you can open terminal, and do a shit load of things with it. You can even install Linux and BSD apps if you install the libs needed. You can use OS X just like you would BSD or Linux if you choose.



streetfighter 2 said:


> One of my friends got an iPad for school.  Ever since we've been trying to figure out what it's used for.  It's pretty tough to write papers on it; it doesn't make sense to watch movies on it unless you're commuting; it makes a decent ereader but the battery life isn't so hot; you can browse the net with it easily enough but you're limited in your actions.
> 
> It just sits on his coffee table and we joke about how it is only decent when used for porn.  On the other hand he brings his laptop everywhere.
> 
> (I don't want/expect anyone to tell me what the iPad is used for.  I was merely making a joke/point.)


I honestly don't like the iPad either. It's like iTouch only bigger, when they should've made it iMac w/touch screen, only smaller. People seem to suck them up for whatever reason tho. I wouldn't mind having a capacitive touch screen tablet, but not at that price. Some Android ones are releasing as well, and the ones with good gpus and capacitive screens seem to be the same price as iPad, like the Samsung Galaxy Tab.


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## qubit (Jan 23, 2011)

@Easy Rhino

I don't sound like a child. I make a good argument. Please don't be so dismissive and accusing me of just having "nerd rage" and offering me to have a heart atteck. It is really quite insulting. 

I still haven't had that example showing how an iPad can be better in any particular scenario. How is it better for designers and what sort of "designers" are we talking about?

*streetfighter 2* has just made a good example of someone that's got one and _doesn't_ actually find it useful. So my question stands. I would really like a concrete example/scenario of where an iPad is superior to the laptop/netbook that it's edging out. I still haven't had this.

To show you what sort of answer I'm looking for, I can certainly make a few concrete examples of where laptops are superior:

Better than an iPad: more CPU & GPU power & compatibility with the vast range of PC apps and utilities. Better all round spec, in fact (including screen resolution). Some expensive ones even have enough processing power to play modern games very well eg the Eurocom brand: www.eurocom.co.uk

Better than a desktop PC: highly portable. Can be used to do work in a variety of locations, such as on a airplane or ship. Can be used "in the field" for data gathering in scientific situations where data has to be monitored, processed and possibly transmitted in realtme.

Modern laptops also have enough CPU/GPU power nowadays and contain a keyboard and trackpad, so that they can be used to completely replace a desktop _and without any external support_ if someone prefers to. Some of my colleagues at work have this arrangement. I'd really like to see an iPad do that, or any keyboardless iPad style computer do that for that matter (attaching a keyboard or other peripheral is cheating. The computer must be used with the native functionality it came with).

You claim that Apple are meeting customer demand simply because they're selling a lot of their stuff. My point and that of others is that they're not, people are just getting suckered into buying their intentionally restricted products based on image and marketing. That's not meeting needs, it's a sly con on the clueless, non-technical person instead. Again, I refer to Mussels' example of how many people convert to a PC when he shows them the difference.


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## Wile E (Jan 23, 2011)

qubit said:


> @Easy Rhino
> 
> I don't sound like a child. I make a good argument. Please don't be so dismissive and accusing me of just having "nerd rage" and offering me to have a heart atteck. It is really quite insulting.
> 
> ...



But you haven't made any good arguments. All you have proven is that *YOU* have no use for them. You haven't proven anything else at all.

iPad (and any capacitive touch screen tablet) can be held, and used in a different portable manner than a netbook and laptop, making them less cumbersome. Nice try, laptops and tablets are a different market altogether. Why no animosity towards the likes of the Samsung Galaxy Tab? You might as well compare a smart phone with a netbook, as it's about the same as what you are doing now.

You are comparing 2 completely different things.

And again bitching about marketting? Why? All companies stretch the truth to sell things to you, but so many focus their attentions on Apple. I just don't understand the logic.

I am actually an owner of Apple products, because, at the time of purchase, they represented a great value. They are not the godawful evil, overcharging company you are trying to make them out to be.

I bought a 20" iMac w/Core2 when they first released them back in the day. It was $200 more than a PC version with all the same specs, with one major exception. The PC had a crappy Tn-Film screen, and the iMac has an IPS. Worth the extra $200. Actually, at the time, the price premium between a 20" tn-film and 20" IPS monitor averaged $300 or more. I'd call that a bargain. Today's iMacs still have that advantage.

I have an iPhone 3GS 16GB. When it was new, no other phone came close for LCD and touch screen abilities, or built in storage for that matter. All other choices had far inferior screens, and the OSes were locked by AT&T themselves to be a walled garden. At least the iPhone could be jailbroken. This is finally changing however, and it looks like some really good Android phones are due to hit the market. I will be making the switch.

The point is, Apple does make some good products if you do your research, instead of blindly hating them based on advertising.


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 23, 2011)

qubit said:


> @Easy Rhino
> 
> I don't sound like a child. I make a good argument. Please don't be so dismissive and accusing me of just having "nerd rage" and offering me to have a heart atteck. It is really quite insulting.
> 
> ...



while i dont want to spend any more time defending the tens of millions selling ipad, i will tell you that i never called you specifically a raging nerd. and i never offered for you to have a heart attack. you must reread my reply for context clues


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## kid41212003 (Jan 23, 2011)

Easy likes OSX because it's Unix-based. He likes anything Unix-based.

/sarcasm


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 23, 2011)

kid41212003 said:


> Easy likes OSX because it's Unix-based. He likes anything Unix-based.
> 
> /sarcasm



actually that is very true. the main reason i love OSX is because it uses a ton of similar code from BSD. many of the BSD developers have also worked developing OSX.


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## n-ster (Jan 23, 2011)

Wile E said:


> I honestly don't like the iPad either. It's like iTouch only bigger, when they should've made it iMac w/touch screen, only smaller. People seem to suck them up for whatever reason tho. I wouldn't mind having a capacitive touch screen tablet, but not at that price. Some Android ones are releasing as well, and the ones with good gpus and capacitive screens seem to be the same price as iPad, like the Samsung Galaxy Tab.



I feel exactly the same way, and this is what other manufacturer are going to do.

Ipad is a brillian idea, but limiting it to Ipod Touch functions is just damn stupid. Still, they marketed the idea, everyone loved it, therefore the tablet to buy is the expensive and barely useful Ipad

and about Easy Rhino's "raging nerd" thing, it is aboutall of us raging on Apple n stuff. It is true, we are acting like raging nerds  and it was obviously not targeted to one person, but to all of us


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> while i dont want to spend any more time defending the tens of millions selling ipad, i will tell you that i never called you specifically a raging nerd. and i never offered for you to have a heart attack. you must reread my reply for context clues



Well, it certainly came across that way - and it still does on rereading it. However, I accept you didn't mean it that way. Such are the vagaries of the written word, lol.

Not sure why you gave me a  but hey, whatever, no offense taken. 


And on the subject of the iPad, no problem, Easy. I'm not surprised that you don't want to spend any more time defending the iPad: I asked a very pertinent question and gave some killer examples to back up my argument. Yours is a fairly typical answer from someone that has just lost the argument (as in discussion, not rant or flame.  ) and doesn't want to admit it. Yup, there is no situation where the iPad is better than a laptop. If so, it really shouldn't be so hard to prove it, now should it? I'm still keen to see some examples of its alleged superiority.

The iPad is just an overpriced (way overpriced) toy from Apple, just as myself and others have been saying all along. It's Apple and their clueless customers that deserve the  for distorting the market with high-priced junk devices and edging out genuinely useful ones.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jan 24, 2011)

All I have to say is....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> All I have to say is....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg



Oh god, I nearly split my sides! 

Nice one.


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> Well, it certainly came across that way - and it still does on rereading it. However, I accept you didn't mean it that way. Such are the vagaries of the written word, lol.
> 
> Not sure why you gave me a  but hey, whatever, no offense taken.
> 
> ...



just because YOU can't come up with a reasonable use for the iPAD does not mean it is a pointless device that tens of millions of people have bought because they are brainwashed by steve jobs marketing. 

some people just like cool devices. some people like not having to lug a cumbersome notebook around with them. why is that wrong? you did not give me any reasons why i should not buy an iPAD that actually disproved what i just said. honestly, if you dont like the iPAD then fine, don't buy one. it isnt the end of the world because people like to spend their money on cool and hip devices.


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## TeXBill (Jan 24, 2011)

I like my iPad and use it all the time in meetings for taking notes, use it to check my e-mail and a bunch of other things. It is light weight and easy to use. I also have a laptop but prefer to carry my iPad because it doesn't weigh much and it's does just about everything a laptop will do.
I use Mac's and Windows machines, both are specific to a different application or job. Enough fighting about iPad's or laptop's get what you want to use and enjoy it.


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> just because YOU can't come up with a reasonable use for the iPAD does not mean it is a pointless device that tens of millions of people have bought because they are brainwashed by steve jobs marketing.
> 
> some people just like cool devices. some people like not having to lug a cumbersome notebook around with them. why is that wrong? you did not give me any reasons why i should not buy an iPAD that actually disproved what i just said. honestly, if you dont like the iPAD then fine, don't buy one. it isnt the end of the world because people like to spend their money on cool and hip devices.



It's YOU who can't come up with one or two simple examples of how the iPad is better than a laptop/netbook, after I have posed this reasonable question several times now. I think you'll agree that it's the sort of question that any company would pose to justify their business case, should they contemplate buying them. Therefore, it's quite an important and standard question, no?

It's obvious you don't have the answer, or you wouldn't start accusing me. Come on Easy, I know you're better than this.

Saying that laptops are more cumbersome* and claiming that iPads are "cooler" - oh god :shadedshu - as reasons to buy isn't a compelling argument in their favour. The Cult of Apple and their Reality Distortion Field, indeed.

*Netbooks are arguably _less_ cumbersome than the hallowed iPad, because they're real small and can be set down on a table and used with both hands, or used with one hand while holding with the other. With the iPad, one hand is always tied up (and getting fatigued) from holding it - remember extra keyboards and stands not allowed, we're talking about the basic functionality of the device.


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## Munki (Jan 24, 2011)

Metal rod + file = no problem


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## DrPepper (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> just because YOU can't come up with a reasonable use for the iPAD does not mean it is a pointless device that tens of millions of people have bought because they are brainwashed by steve jobs marketing.



Lets be fair though most people become pretty stupid when it comes to shiny things.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> iPAD does not mean it is a pointless device that tens of millions of people have bought because they are brainwashed by steve jobs marketing.


See, I fixed it so it makes sense.   Here's my proof. 

That doesn't mean there aren't at least a couple people who do find the iPad useful, like TeXBill.


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok, here's one in answer to mailman's post. If you like iPhones, you'll love this! 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAOtC9QfXac&feature=related


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> See, I fixed it so it makes sense.   Here's my proof.
> 
> That doesn't mean there aren't at least a couple people who do find the iPad useful, like TeXBill.



Damn, it won't stream to the UK. How m/f lame. :shadedshu

Great post otherwise. 

TweetFired: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2L5egeR7I&feature=channel


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## Peter1986C (Jan 24, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> I'm proud to say that Apple doesn't have single red penny in their pockets from me.



So am I.



streetfighter 2 said:


> See, I fixed it so it makes sense.   Here's my proof.
> 
> That doesn't mean there aren't at least a couple people who do find the iPad useful, like TeXBill.



Your link doesn't work for me 'cause I am non-US and I dont know a US proxy addy that I could use. Any other source for the video?


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## Frick (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> It's YOU who can't come up with one or two simple examples of how the iPad is better than a laptop/netbook, after I have posed this reasonable question several times now. I think you'll agree that it's the sort of question that any company would pose to justify their business case, should they contemplate buying them. Therefore, it's quite an important and standard question, no?
> 
> It's obvious you don't have the answer, or you wouldn't start accusing me. Come on Easy, I know you're better than this.
> 
> ...



You didn't read Texbill's post? I've read similar stories from guys "in the field" who love them because it makes everything the netbook does (even if it's not as powerful, but most guys working out there don't need alot of power) but it's easier to use. Need to place an order? Just tap away. Need to take notes? Just tap away. You can do all those things with a netbook, and if you have a table + mouse at your disposal you can do it as easy as with the iPad but at many times these guys don't get that.

And it's a lot easier to hold a tablet and writing on that than to hold a netbook and use the keyboard imo.

BTW, the Galaxy Tab is just as expensive as the iPad but it's not as easy to use. Do you hate Samsung as much as you hate Apple for that?


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## Andrei23 (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> just because YOU can't come up with a reasonable use for the iPAD does not mean it is a pointless device that tens of millions of people have bought because they are brainwashed by steve jobs marketing.
> 
> some people just like cool devices. some people like not having to lug a cumbersome notebook around with them. why is that wrong? you did not give me any reasons why i should not buy an iPAD that actually disproved what i just said. honestly, if you dont like the iPAD then fine, don't buy one. it isnt the end of the world because people like to spend their money on cool and hip devices.



I get what you are saying. You went for it cause it's shiny... listen, I don't blame you. It's still pointless though


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> It's YOU who can't come up with one or two simple examples of how the iPad is better than a laptop/netbook, after I have posed this reasonable question several times now. I think you'll agree that it's the sort of question that any company would pose to justify their business case, should they contemplate buying them. Therefore, it's quite an important and standard question, no?
> 
> It's obvious you don't have the answer, or you wouldn't start accusing me. Come on Easy, I know you're better than this.
> 
> ...



these are your opinions about the usefulness of the ipad. apparently in your small mind it simply cannot be possible for anyone to enjoy the ipad for being smaller than a latop/netbook and being a cool cutting edge piece of hardware. open up your mind. i believe you have been brainwashed by the typical apple hating e-nerds who have made it their mission to shit on products that they deem unacceptable or worthless. please get a life.


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Frick said:


> You didn't read Texbill's post? I've read similar stories from guys "in the field" who love them because it makes everything the netbook does (even if it's not as powerful, but most guys working out there don't need alot of power) but it's easier to use. Need to place an order? Just tap away. Need to take notes? Just tap away. You can do all those things with a netbook, and if you have a table + mouse at your disposal you can do it as easy as with the iPad but at many times these guys don't get that.
> 
> And it's a lot easier to hold a tablet and writing on that than to hold a netbook and use the keyboard imo.
> 
> BTW, the Galaxy Tab is just as expensive as the iPad but it's not as easy to use. Do you hate Samsung as much as you hate Apple for that?



TexBill made his post while I was writing mine, so I only saw it when I posted. He does give some fair reasons why he thinks it's useful and is the sort of answer I was looking for from Easy. As one can see, I wasn't asking a trick question at all.

It doesn't really change what I'm saying to Easy though. I never did get a straight answer from him on where an iPad is better than a laptop or netbook, which kinda proves my point. He's welcome to give me that straight answer any time and I'll be happy to talk about it with him in a fair and reasonable way, without any stupid accusations.

Re the Samsung thingy: look, I particularly hate Apple for the way they lock you into their walled garden using DRM in all their products, in a way that other companies don't and I've explained this previously in this thread. I'm happy to go over it again here though with you.

As we all know, if one company starts being successful at flogging their stuff in a particular market using a particular business model, then all the others start copying them. Therefore, when Apple starts being successful at flogging overpriced, useless gadgets with very obvious walled garden lock-ins and restrictive control-freak policies, it only encourages the rest of them to follow suit with the same kinda crap. And we're seeing this now.

This marginalizes the genuinely useful devices in the market, making them rarer, more expensive and eventually obsolete at the hands of an inferior product. And this shit gets my goat.

I'm sure that I'd prefer the Tab to the iPad if I compared them (it likely has more standard interfaces such as USB for a start) but I doubt that I'd find the Tab much more useful in a real-world situation than the iPad, because of the inherent limitations of a handheld touch screen device. And it's bloody expensive.


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> these are your opinions about the usefulness of the ipad. apparently in your *small mind* it simply cannot be possible for anyone to enjoy the ipad for being smaller than a latop/netbook and being a cool cutting edge piece of hardware. open up your mind. i believe you have been *brainwashed* by the typical apple hating e-nerds who have made it their mission to shit on products that they deem unacceptable or worthless. *please get a life.*



Obviously, I didn't see your post, as I was writing mine and guess what, here you go again with the insults. :shadedshu I see now that you're obviously _not_ better than this. You have spectacularly failed to answer why the iPad is better and replaced it with personal insults, while I have been reasonable and nice to you throughout.

Frankly, I could say a few choice words about you my friend, but don't worry, I won't give you the satisfaction of having an excuse to nail me with an infraction. I'm sure you'd love that right now, wouldn't you?

However, I can say that you are being offensive and inflamatory and are making a bad example of a moderator.


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## streetfighter 2 (Jan 24, 2011)

Chevalr1c said:


> Your link doesn't work for me 'cause I am non-US and I dont know a US proxy addy that I could use. Any other source for the video?


http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/macheads/

It's really not worth watching IMO.  It's exactly what you'd expect; a bunch of people who exhibit the same level of zeal as any religious fanatic.  One woman even says that she has never knowingly slept with a Windows user .

The people in the documentary are annoying as hell and I only made it through it because I was writing code and drinking beer the whole time.  Several of my friend's have macs, and none of them think highly of herr Jobs (or act like a goofy condescending dick).  Anyone who is older than five knows Steve Wozniak is the real god .


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/macheads/
> 
> It's really not worth watching IMO.  It's exactly what you'd expect; a bunch of people who exhibit the same level of zeal as any religious fanatic.  One woman even says that she has never knowingly slept with a Windows user .
> 
> The people in the documentary are annoying as hell and I only made it through it because I was writing code and drinking beer the whole time.  Several of my friend's have macs, and none of them think highly of herr Jobs (or act like a goofy condescending dick).  Anyone who is older than five knows Steve Wozniak is the real god .



Oh god these people are sad!  :shadedshu

What about the woman who has never knowingly slept with a Windows user? What a basket case.


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> Obviously, I didn't see your post, as I was writing mine and guess what, here you go again with the insults. :shadedshu I see now that you're obviously _not_ better than this. You have spectacularly failed to answer why the iPad is better and replaced it with personal insults, while I have been reasonable and nice to you throughout.
> 
> Frankly, I could say a few choice words about you my friend, but don't worry, I won't give you the satisfaction of having an excuse to nail me with an infraction. I'm sure you'd love that right now, wouldn't you?
> 
> However, I can say that you are being offensive and inflamatory and are making a bad example of a moderator.



i dont care if the ipad is better or not than a notebook. the ipad is found to be more useful for some people as it is smaller than a netbook and it is cool new technology. clearly you do not understand this. this entire thread is about people who are brainwashed into buying apple products. i am saying it is YOU who are brainwashed by the apple hating e-nerds. if you take that as an insult than i must have touched a nerve.

your idea that somehow apple's success will lead to the downfall of computers as we know it short sighted and obtuse. in the past 20 years microsoft has exploded around the globe despite the presence and resurgence of closed apple products. what's more the open source movement has made amazing traction over the past 15 years thanks to linux. so your entire argument is incredibly off base and wreaks of tin-foil hat conspiracies in 4chan. 

furthermore, you didnt have to bring my mod status into this whole debate. it is clear now that you would like nothing more than for me to infract you so that it would bolster your pathetically small minded argument. now please, move along.


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## Frick (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> As we all know, if one company starts being successful at flogging their stuff in a particular market using a particular business model, then all the others start copying them. Therefore, when Apple starts being successful at flogging overpriced, useless gadgets with very obvious walled garden lock-ins and restrictive control-freak policies, it only encourages the rest of them to follow suit with the same kinda crap. And we're seeing this now.
> 
> This marginalizes the genuinely useful devices in the market, making them rarer, more expensive and eventually obsolete at the hands of an inferior product. And this shit gets my goat.



I do kinda agree with you on this one, but I wouldn't say it makes other products less useful. And the reason others are mimiking Apples business model (at least when it comes to apps and the use of them) is because it's brilliantly easy. Most people find iDevices to be genuinly *easy *to use. I'm not sure I agree, I rather use Windows Mobile actually, but it's how things are. When it comes to that I cannot debate with millions of users who likes iOS and the way it's run. And if you want to make things easy for the non technical user (who are and will forever be the main target) you kinda have to wall it in and make the world narrower and more streamlined. IMO. Maybe there are models that would be truly open AND super easy to use, but I can't figure out what that would look like. Even the so-called open Android have a lot of restrictions AFAIK, but they are there for a reason. 

When I first heard of Android I was like "ZOMG Linux hacking on a phone awesome!", but it's not like that. Why aren't Linux the most used OS in the world? it's free for gods sake! But it's also difficult to use for the avarage user. At least thats how I see it. I'm not a fan of the Apple way either, but people like it. Like ALOT of people, even techies that are aware of the entire "Walled Garden" thing.

BTW, if you want a phone that you can use anyway you want you might want to check out OpenMoko. It's a phone thats all open source, from the hardware up.


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> i dont care if the ipad is better or not than a notebook. the ipad is found to be more useful for some people as it is smaller than a netbook and it is cool new technology. clearly you do not understand this. this entire thread is about people who are brainwashed into buying apple products. i am saying it is YOU who are brainwashed by the apple hating e-nerds. if you take that as an insult than i must have touched a nerve.
> 
> your idea that somehow apple's success will lead to the downfall of computers as we know it short sighted and obtuse. *in the past 20 years microsoft has exploded around the globe despite the presence and resurgence of closed apple products. what's more the open source movement has made amazing traction over the past 15 years thanks to linux.* so your entire argument is incredibly off base and wreaks of tin-foil hat conspiracies in 4chan.



Well, I must say that I agree with the bit in bold, if nothing else.  It's certainly given Microsoft a headache and helped keep them in check.



Easy Rhino said:


> furthermore, you didnt have to bring my mod status into this whole debate. it is clear now that you would like nothing more than for me to infract you so that it would bolster your pathetically small minded argument. now please, move along.



No, I don't want you to infract me. But I do feel the way you're talking to me is a bit off and I figured you might be itching to do it. I'm glad to be wrong. 

Look, you see it your way and I see it mine and I'm quite happy to differ. I still haven't really had a proper answer to my question, but what the hell, it's not that important in the end; we're only having a chat, lol.

Perhaps if you look over our discussion, you'll see that I was being quite genuine with you, asking a straight question and wanted to see how you saw it as better, with solid examples of why this should be so.

Finally, I've thanked you, as a gesture of goodwill; I certainly don't like a fight with anyone, mods or not. It's water under the bridge for me now.


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## Easy Rhino (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> Well, I must say that I agree with the bit in bold, if nothing else.  It's certainly given Microsoft a headache and helped keep them in check.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok, fine. i dont care if people dont like apple products. everyone has their opinion. but what i dont like is when people act like the only reason people buy apple products is because they are brainwashed. that is so far off base that these days that argument is considered trolling. furthermore, gadgets that YOU find useful today exist because of the work of companies like apple that push the limits of technology. they are creative geniuses which means their work may not always be the most useful. that does not discredit the work they are doing however and only small minded individuals would honestly fail to see it.


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## vbx (Jan 24, 2011)

LOL, if you guys don't own a macbook, why complain about it? It's like me complaining about BMW expensive repair bills when I drive a Infiniti G.


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## n-ster (Jan 24, 2011)

Would you criticize a 10$ 700W PSU? why would you? you don't own one AFAIK

Sure there are some who are blindly bashing apple, but there are the ones who actually have apple products all around them, and in their house, and with best friends and family.

I don't think anybody is COMPLETELY discrediting apple. Ipad was an awesome idea, and without it, I doubt companies would be trying to do tablets. Iphone has some damn nice stuff about it, the sleek design of apple has caused envy, and alot of companies have refined the look of their laptops etc to make them look better. All this doesn't change the fact the Ipad could have been  better. By how much? that's debatable. Doesn't change the fact that there are alot of apple fanboys who buy apple products when another product at a lot less $ would have suited his needs better.


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## Wile E (Jan 24, 2011)

qubit said:


> *It's YOU who can't come up with one or two simple examples of how the iPad is better than a laptop/netbook*, after I have posed this reasonable question several times now. I think you'll agree that it's the sort of question that any company would pose to justify their business case, should they contemplate buying them. Therefore, it's quite an important and standard question, no?
> 
> It's obvious you don't have the answer, or you wouldn't start accusing me. Come on Easy, I know you're better than this.
> 
> ...


No, but I already did, and so did a few others.

Yes, you can use keyboards and stands on ipad. Just goes to show you are spouting off about something you don't really know anything about. Seriously, your position every bit as bad as blindly devoted Apple fanboy.


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## de.das.dude (Jan 24, 2011)

guys dont mess with Wile E about apple. this thread will explode


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## silkstone (Jan 24, 2011)

Wile E said:


> No, but I already did.
> 
> Yes, you can use keyboards and stands on ipad. Just goes to show you are teh typical anti-mac guy spouting off about something he knows nothing about. Seriously, you are every bit as bad as blindly devoted Apple fanboy.



I think it all comes down to how you weight the advantages an disadvantages in the end. Some people weigh the advantages more heavily than the latter, and some the other way round.

Apple products certainly fit a niche and i'm glad they do well as they introduce extra competition into the market.

I personally dislike Macs because i know i can do the same and more with a PC.
I like the I-phone, but i'd never buy one (or any smart phone) as i use a phone to..well...phone, nothing more. I also would not find an I-Pad usefull as i have a laptop and if i wanted a reader, i would buy a reader.

I'm sure you can see that there is a lot of hype surrounding apple as they have done so well recently (their share-price depends on speculation on SJ's health, lol) and that sort of thing has momentum. With the PC market there is a lot less hype as we have many different manufactures doing the same thing..... Well apple do the same thing, just in a unique way, which makes them stand out.

TLDR; Apple products are suitable for some people but are over-hyped imo (leading to some people to believe they need an apple product, when another product would be just as suitable)


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

Wile E said:


> No, but I already did, and so did a few others.
> 
> *Yes, you can use keyboards and stands on ipad.* Just goes to show you are spouting off about something you don't really know anything about. Seriously, your position every bit as bad as blindly devoted Apple fanboy.



Re the bold bit: yes I know. I was saying to use the iPad in its native out of the box configuration when comparing and I was quite clear about that.

And I was asking Easy, not anyone else for an answer. I wanted _his_ opinion.

I'm not spouting or blindly devoted about anything. Thanks.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jan 24, 2011)

Both Wile E and Easy know that I have some pretty good anti-Apple arguments and I could keep this thread going for a VERY long time. HOWEVER WHY? I mean this Apple bashing has been going on for over 30 years! Most of the hate came out of the clone days. Its enough already. If you don't like Apple (which I now hate) don't buy it. Thats what I do.

 If you do like them great! Just don't act like you are above the curve like most Apple noobs think. (TPU community excluded from noob comment).

Ether way STFU!


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## qubit (Jan 24, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Both Wile E and Easy know that I have some pretty good anti-Apple arguments and I could keep this thread going for a VERY long time. HOWEVER WHY? I mean this Apple bashing has been going on for over 30 years! Most of the hate came out of the clone days. Its enough already. If you don't like Apple (which I now hate) don't buy it. Thats what I do.
> 
> If you do like them great! Just don't act like you are above the curve like most Apple noobs think. (TPU community excluded from noob comment).
> 
> Ether way STFU!



I'd be very interested in your anti Apple arguments. If you'd like to tell me about them in PM, I'd be delighted to hear them!


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## Peter1986C (Jan 24, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/macheads/
> 
> It's really not worth watching IMO.  It's exactly what you'd expect; a bunch of people who exhibit the same level of zeal as any religious fanatic.  One woman even says that she has never knowingly slept with a Windows user .
> 
> The people in the documentary are annoying as hell and I only made it through it because I was writing code and drinking beer the whole time.  Several of my friend's have macs, and none of them think highly of herr Jobs (or act like a goofy condescending dick).  Anyone who is older than five knows Steve Wozniak is the real god .



I only got through the first two-and-a-half minutes, and that costed me more effort than installing Gentoo (as a manner of speaking).


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## Completely Bonkers (Jan 24, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> ...Apple bashing...
> 
> Ether way STFU!









M-M-M-Max Headroom.

British 1980's CGI using an *Apple 2*  and an actor in prosthetics


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## Wrigleyvillain (Jan 24, 2011)

Nothing brings out the misinformed, hive mind ignorance of this community more than an Apple thread. What is this [H]? I have stayed out for the most part since the beginning as I have enough infractions already,

Thanks Wile E and Mailman and Bonkers and the precious few other points of light and educated intelligence in this otherwise low-browed wasteland of a thread.


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## OneCool (Jan 25, 2011)

Sledge Hammer fixes all Apple products!!


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## qubit (Jan 25, 2011)

Wrigleyvillain said:


> *Nothing brings out the misinformed, hive mind ignorance of this community more than an Apple thread.* What is this [H]? I have stayed out for the most part since the beginning as I have enough infractions already,
> 
> Thanks Wile E and Mailman and Bonkers and the precious few other points of light and educated intelligence in this otherwise low-browed wasteland of a thread.



Yes, quite. Good thing then that I'm one of those precious few other points of light and educated intelligence who know what I'm talking about and bring the voice of reason to such a thread.


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## pr0n Inspector (Jan 25, 2011)

what the fuck does iPad have to do with the topic again?

If anyone still cares, ifixit reports:

mid-2009 macbook pros use this special screw to fasten the batteries, note that batteries are internal and are only accessible after taking off the the entire back.(mid-2010 macbook pros use tri-wing instead of this five-point screw)

some iphone 4 and maybe newer iphone 4 use this screw to secure the back panel. removing the back panel exposes batteries, circuit boards and whatnot.

the new macbook airs use this type of screws to fasten the entire back panel. RAM is soldered on MBA, SSD is replaceable but is in a special form factor, batteries are also replaceable but it seems no one is offering parts ATM.

you can buy the special screw drivers from ifixit.

you can use or modify a slot head screw driver in emergency, but it's likely to ruin the screw head.


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