# VDSL2 Modem



## taz420nj (Nov 11, 2018)

I decided to try upgrading my internet service to 100Mbps symmetrical, but I have a multi-faceted issue..

First, I live in an apartment.  The ISP has multi-gigabit fiber to the building, but since the building predates their fiber rollout by a couple years and does not have dedicated internet cabling to each unit, they installed a DSLAM on the outside.  Each unit then uses a VDSL2 modem to bring it in over the phone lines (cat5e).

When they first did the upgrade on my account this afternoon, I ran speed tests and got 75/10 (my old service level was 50/10).  I called tech support and explained the situation, and he went in and re-provisioned my port on the DSLAM for the new speeds (customer service had sent the proper update to the modem but the port was still limited to 75/10).  Then I was getting about 80/50.  Which brings me to the next part..

The modem is a Comtrend CT-5374.  This ISP uses it for both DSL and lower package fiber/ONT customers.  It has a GbE port but several techs have told me that it can not be assigned to the LAN, it is only for the WAN/ONT connection.  The built-in switch is only 10/100.  Not only that but the DSL side only supports up to profile 17a, which has a max capacity of 100/50.  That explains the upstream limit, but the 80Mbps downstream I'm pretty sure is hitting the throughput ceiling on a 100Mbps port.  They have better equipment for their straight fiber customers (they offer up to symmetrical gigabit packages) but there's only a handful of DSLAM-equipped buildings in town so apparently we aren't a priority for upgrading.

They told me that they do not have any better equipment at this time for people who have to use the DSL, but I am welcome to buy my own and see if my speeds improve.  So I want to give it a try.  They have given me a month of free service while I figure this out so I'd like to see if I can make it work, and if it won't, I'll just return whatever I buy and I can settle for 50/50 since I know the modem they gave me will handle it.  The extra upstream is what I really needed because I have several friends and family members that use my Plex library now and the 10Mbps uplink is becoming a bottleneck when more than two or three people try to use it at the same time.

I even asked if they could - since the phone line is Cat5e - connect me right into the ONT upstream of the DSLAM since I don't use a landline, but they said no.

So I was wondering if there's anyone out there that knows enough about VDSL equipment to make a recommendation on a modem..

It must:
- Not be provisioned for Centurylink
- Support VDSL2, minimum profile 30a
- Have Gigabit LAN
- Support bridge mode (I use a pfSense firewall and do not want a double NAT situation due to my Plex server and inbound VPN)
- Ideally be JUST a modem.  I do not need a combo unit with router or wifi.

Thanks 

Edit:  While looking around I found this: https://www.amazon.com/SFP-VDSL-Mod...8&qid=1541972794&sr=8-40&keywords=vdsl2+modem ..  I do use a 24 port managed PoE switch with SFP ports.  Would I be able to use this and then just VLAN an ethernet port to it to connect into my firewall?


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 12, 2018)

I don't have any experience in this area so I cannot help you but sure am interested in how your experiment turns out. So please keep us posted. 

It seems like your local field and CO techs are being very helpful, or trying to be and that is great. It just sounds like they are just being limited by a lack of support from up the chain. The bean counters don't see enough returns ($$$) on any investments to bring bigger pipes to each of the apartments in your building. 

Out of curiosity, what does your new contract say? If it says 100/100Mbps, you might be able to push the issue and force them to upgrade that CT-5374 to a true Gigabit router, one that supports 11ac too. How many units are in that building? If a huge complex, it may be difficult, but if a small building, getting fiber closer to each unit might be nice. 

But if your contract says "_up to_" 100/100Mbps with no minimum speeds specified (such anti-consumer terms should not be legal, but that's for a difference discussion), then you are at their mercy.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Nov 12, 2018)

Ok, let's try to clear out some terminology here first.

Phone lines don't use CAT5e/RJ45, if yours do, then they gave you something else.
If it's not an RJ11 jack, assuming you're in the US, then you have some custom stuff installed which makes it all a lot harder.
What they might've installed is a filter to filter out any interference from the xDSL signal running along your phone line now, as this can interfere with normal telephone usage.
Looking at the router, it has an RJ11 connector for the xDSL port, so nothing odd there.

This looks like the kind of thing you want https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/dsl-modems-routers/DM200.aspx
It seems to be going for around $60 at Staples.

Want something better, try this https://www.draytekusa.com/vigor-130
It more expensive at over $90 though - https://www.ipphone-warehouse.com/DrayTek-Vigor-130-Router-p/vigor130.htm

Doesn't look like VDSL2 modems are very easy to get hold of in the US. Shame they gave you what looks like a crap product. That said, 100Mbps Ethernet should top out at close to 100Mbps, as there's much lower overhead compared to 1Gbps Ethernet.

The thing you found isn't going to work with your switch, it's just a "dumb" modem and would require software. It would be for a router that has an SFP port and has the software built in to work with said modem. Can't see that product being very useful, as it has extremely limited appeal imho.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 12, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I don't have any experience in this area so I cannot help you but sure am interested in how your experiment turns out. So please keep us posted.
> 
> It seems like your local field and CO techs are being very helpful, or trying to be and that is great. It just sounds like they are just being limited by a lack of support from up the chain. The bean counters don't see enough returns ($$$) on any investments to bring bigger pipes to each of the apartments in your building.
> 
> ...



It's residential so those plans are all "up to".  They only guarantee speeds on their business plans.  But they just did a massive FTTH rollout across the entire western half of Kansas about 6 years ago, and when I lived in a house and was connected directly into the ONT I never had anything even slightly less than what I paid for. Usually it clocked in a Mbps or two OVER my package speed both ways.  The problem here is as I said there are only probably four dozen buildings in town (pop. 20k) that use the DSLAM system so not really a high priority for them.  Ours isnt a huge complex but there's 4 buildings with 16 units per, so it's not trivial, but the DSLAM is right next to the ONT and he phone Demarc box so they *COULD* just hook me into the ONT but I guess they dont want to do something "non standard" lest other tenants want it too.



TheLostSwede said:


> Ok, let's try to clear out some terminology here first.
> 
> Phone lines don't use CAT5e/RJ45, if yours do, then they gave you something else.
> If it's not an RJ11 jack, assuming you're in the US, then you have some custom stuff installed which makes it all a lot harder.
> ...



I'm well aware of the terminology.  There is no filter.  The phone cabling to and within each unit is Cat5e. It can support ethernet.



> This looks like the kind of thing you want https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/dsl-modems-routers/DM200.aspx
> It seems to be going for around $60 at Staples.
> 
> Want something better, try this https://www.draytekusa.com/vigor-130
> ...



Neither of those support profile 30a or 35a. They only support up to 17a which only supports 100/50.  Thats what the modem I have now does.



> The thing you found isn't going to work with your switch, it's just a "dumb" modem and would require software. It would be for a router that has an SFP port and has the software built in to work with said modem. Can't see that product being very useful, as it has extremely limited appeal imho.



It doesn't mention anything about being hardware specific, but the mfr page does say " It can be integrated with routers, switches or residential gateways that are equipped with an SFP type of WAN interface."...


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 12, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> The phone cabling to and within each unit is Cat5e. It can support ethernet.


I think you meant the other way around. CAT-5e is Ethernet cable but it can support phones too. CAT-3 used to be used all the time for in-wall phone lines. But it just became cheaper and easier for installers, technicians and service providers to stock and pull one type of cable instead of two. And since CAT-5e supports both phone and Ethernet networking, they went with that. 

I note VoIP uses CAT-5e too. No big deal.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 12, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> I think you meant the other way around. CAT-5e is Ethernet cable but it can support phones too. CAT-3 used to be used all the time for in-wall phone lines. But it just became cheaper and easier for installers, technicians and service providers to stock and pull one type of cable instead of two. And since CAT-5e supports both phone and Ethernet networking, they went with that.
> 
> I note VoIP uses CAT-5e too. No big deal.



Ive made ethernet work on cat 3 or non twisted pair cabling.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Nov 13, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> Neither of those support profile 30a or 35a. They only support up to 17a which only supports 100/50.  Thats what the modem I have now does.
> 
> It doesn't mention anything about being hardware specific, but the mfr page does say " It can be integrated with routers, switches or residential gateways that are equipped with an SFP type of WAN interface."...



Uhm, then you need to read the spec again. The Netgear modem is good for 200Mbps (no profile mentioned) and the Draytek is profile 30a.

The other thing you found, still needs a software interface. How are you going to add the login information, which is required for any type of xDSL service? Without that, it simply won't connect, as xDSL is still a for of dial-up service. But please, don't mind me, go ahead and buy one and find out for yourself.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 13, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> It's residential so those plans are all "up to".  They only guarantee speeds on their business plans.  But they just did a massive FTTH rollout across the entire western half of Kansas about 6 years ago, and when I lived in a house and was connected directly into the ONT I never had anything even slightly less than what I paid for. Usually it clocked in a Mbps or two OVER my package speed both ways.  The problem here is as I said there are only probably four dozen buildings in town (pop. 20k) that use the DSLAM system so not really a high priority for them.  Ours isnt a huge complex but there's 4 buildings with 16 units per, so it's not trivial, but the DSLAM is right next to the ONT and he phone Demarc box so they *COULD* just hook me into the ONT but I guess they dont want to do something "non standard" lest other tenants want it too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Theres gotta be a demand for ftth. Your complex is fttn/mpoe, i been in mpoe complexes before and they were rat nests.

Ive had to clip pairs from splices or binding posts in mc 10 terminals and just scotchlock them to improve signal quality.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 13, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> Ive made ethernet work on cat 3 or non twisted pair cabling.


Sure! If there are enough conductors in the cable, it will work. Both Cat-3 and Cat-5 cables have four twisted pair, for a total of eight 24- gauge copper wires. But Cat-3 is only designed for 10Mbps speeds while Cat-5 supports 100Mbps and Cat-5e up to 1000Mbps. But 10Mbps is plenty fast, even today, for many common networking tasks. 

Using untwisted pair cables will work too, but you run in to a much greater chance of induction and interference problems, especially over longer distances. So they typically are left to short jumper type cables.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 13, 2018)

TheLostSwede said:


> Uhm, then you need to read the spec again. The Netgear modem is good for 200Mbps (no profile mentioned) and the Draytek is profile 30a.



Uhm..  I did read the specs.  First of all, nowhere does the DM200 mention 200Mbps. The only mention of "200" anywhere is in the model number. It says right on the spec page "Delivers download speeds up to 100 Mbps (with ISP service support)". https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/dsl-modems-routers/DM200.aspx ..  Then there's this I found on Netgear support forum: "Supports all VDSL2 profiles: 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 12a, 12b, and 17a".  https://community.netgear.com/t5/DS...VDSL-Profile-Vectoring-and-G-INP/td-p/1176762

And then on the Vigor130, again it says right on Draytek's spec page: "VDSL Profiles: 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 12a, 12b, 17a".  https://www.draytek.co.uk/products/business/vigor-130#specification



> The other thing you found, still needs a software interface. How are you going to add the login information, which is required for any type of xDSL service? Without that, it simply won't connect, as xDSL is still a for of dial-up service. But please, don't mind me, go ahead and buy one and find out for yourself.



Uhm, the same way I do now?  My current modem is in bridge mode.  It has no interface whatsoever.  All it gives me is an ethernet WAN connection with a public IP, which plugs into the WAN NIC on my pfSense rig.  The PPPoE login for the DSL is done by pfSense.  Seriously bro, there's no need to talk down to me like I'm a moron.



eidairaman1 said:


> Theres gotta be a demand for ftth. Your complex is fttn/mpoe, i been in mpoe complexes before and they were rat nests.



No it's not, it's FTTB.

Top gray box:  NID
Top white box: DSLAM power supply/battery backup
Bottom right gray box: Incoming POTS
Bottom white box: Unknown, possibly AT&T DSLAM (AT&T is not my ISP but is the POTS provider and offers crap 12/3 DSL here)
Right white box: My ISP's DSLAM
Right gray box: My ISP's ONT (jumper to DSLAM is two strand fiber)









Bill_Bright said:


> Sure! If there are enough conductors in the cable, it will work. Both Cat-3 and Cat-5 cables have four twisted pair, for a total of eight 24- gauge copper wires. But Cat-3 is only designed for 10Mbps speeds while Cat-5 supports 100Mbps and Cat-5e up to 1000Mbps. But 10Mbps is plenty fast, even today, for many common networking tasks.
> 
> Using untwisted pair cables will work too, but you run in to a much greater chance of induction and interference problems, especially over longer distances. So they typically are left to short jumper type cables.



Cat3 is 22ga, not 24.  Commonly known as "phone cable".  It is not commonly found with 4 pairs, it is usually 2 or 3 pair (either the R/G/Y/Bk[/O/Br] or Bl/O[/G] color scheme) - although it does come in 4 (adds Bl/W or Br).  It's also used in 25, 50, 100, and 250 pair trunks. Ethernet and DSL are high frequency signals. There is no current involved like there is with POTS.  The signal rides over the "skin" of the wire, not through it.  If one were so inclined the signal could be transmitted over pretty much anything conductive.  You could even use wet string (yes that has been done).  Cat5e is smaller gauge but has a tighter twist spec allowing it to carry higher frequencies with less interference (both external and interpair) and loss.  Cat6/6a/7 are 23ga but again all have progressively tighter twist specs and shielding, therefore higher frequency ratings.

But back to macro...  When this complex was built (8 years ago), the installers ran Cat5e from the NID to each unit for the phone service.  The buildings are small enough that there would not be more than 100 cable meters between the NID and any unit.  So aside from the fact that there are probably a few tenants in each building that do still have a POTS landline, it would be trivial to bring a gigabit link into each unit - at the expense of POTS.  I've gotta be honest I don't think I've seen any building constructed in the past 20 years or so that didn't have Cat5e in the walls for POTS - mainly because it eliminates the crosstalk between lines in the same cable.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 13, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> Cat3 is 22ga, not 24.


Sorry but nope! Note smaller numbers equal bigger wires. 

https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=level-3-utp



taz420nj said:


> t is not commonly found with 4 pairs, it is usually 2 or 3 pair


While 2 or 3 pair is commonly used in residential buildings 4 pair is very common too. But I should have been more clear there. The more important fact is the bandwidth capacities.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 13, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Sorry but nope! Note smaller numbers equal bigger wires.
> 
> https://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=level-3-utp
> 
> While 2 or 3 pair is commonly used in residential buildings 4 pair is very common too. But I should have been more clear there. The more important fact is the bandwidth capacities.



Yeah I know smaller is bigger.  You just don't see Cat3 - especially 4 pair - in many buildings regardless of when they were built. You either see Cat5 or sometimes you find old R/G/Y/B telephone wire (which is definitely 22ga) if the building hasn't been rewired in the past two decades..  But Cat5 has been pretty much standard in telecom since the 90's (then Cat5e since 2000's).


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 13, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> But Cat5 has been pretty much standard in telecom since the 90's (then Cat5e since 2000's).


And now Cat-6 use is gaining in popularity - though with wifi networks becoming more and more popular (and quick), not sure how long new construction homes will be pre-wired.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 13, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> And now Cat-6 use is gaining in popularity - though with wifi networks becoming more and more popular (and quick), not sure how long new construction homes will be pre-wired.


Yeah I hear that.  I had that same discussion with my uncle (an IT guy, no less) a few years back.  He was gutting and remodeling his house, and I asked if he planned on running Cat6 everywhere.  He said he wasn't going to bother because you can use Wifi for everything nowadays and it's "plenty fast".  Despite the argument I put up for doing it - I used my Plex media system as an example, because he has 5 kids (oldest one is 16 now), youtube, netflix, etc etc, is a lot of bandwidth to force through a Wifi system - he decided not to..  Guess who he called to help him fish cables and build his network last year? I never once actually SAID "I told you so", but he sure knew I was thinking it!


----------



## Readlight (Nov 13, 2018)

We haw zte optic modem comes from simple metal wire vs old horrible slow expensive dsl. 4G is worse whit high ping and price.
Anyway, all the internet is monitored by large companies. Totally unfair.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Nov 13, 2018)

Why bother asking for help when you know best? Seriously, did you even bother clicking on the Draytek US link I posted? It has the following 

VDSL2 Profile: 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 12a, 12b, 17a, 30a
And The Netgear site doesn't mention 200Mbps, but if you look around, plenty of other websites do. Netgear seems to have zero information about just about any feature of the modem.

But hey, good luck wasting money on stuff that I highly doubt will work.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Nov 14, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> When someone comes right out of the box and "corrects" me on something that isn't wrong (ie: "terminology"), while at the same time being wrong about two out of three of their own suggestions (You are right, I didn't click the link, I googled the name of the Draytek and apparently the profile support is different between US and UK sites, but you ARE 100% wrong about the DM200, because there are NO websites that claim it to be 200Mbps, and you are WRONG about the SFP modem - because you obviously have no clue how a non-routing DSL bridge works) I automatically think they're a dick. Move along.  I asked for info from people who know.



Wow, just wow, aren't you a class act.

Your first post wasn't exactly clear and had a lot of jumbled up info which I tried to make sense of. You clearly have some very, very, unusual setup at home, which is something people can't simply assume as fact, since that's not normal.

And calling me out at being wrong, when I've actually looked up the products before posting, well, that's just plain rude, especially as you seem to be fairly poor at doing your own research.








But hey, I'm the dick, so no need to thank me.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 14, 2018)

TheLostSwede said:


> Wow, just wow, aren't you a class act.
> 
> Your first post wasn't exactly clear and had a lot of jumbled up info which I tried to make sense of. You clearly have some very, very, unusual setup at home, which is something people can't simply assume as fact, since that's not normal.
> 
> ...



So what fly by night reseller who doesn't proofread their listings did that come from?  Because it isn't from any of the top few that come up.  In fact, none of the retail sites that came up for me even list the speed (they just have that "dsl-ometer" pointing to VDSL).  Netgear's OWN SITE says "Up to 100Mbps".  Their own support forum says it only supports profile 17a.  So yeah, I'll believe that over what's on bobselectronics.biz

My first post was pretty clear.



taz420nj said:


> It must:
> - Not be provisioned for Centurylink
> - Support VDSL2, minimum profile 30a
> - Have Gigabit LAN
> ...



A DSL modem to a hardware firewall is HARDLY " some very very unusual setup".  There is absolutely NOTHING unusual about it.  In fact, it's pretty standard and straightforward.  Back in the day before they started cramming crappy routers with crappy switches and crappy wifi radios into an all-in-one box with the modem, that's all you had. Your modem plugged into the phone line, and your router/firewall plugged into the modem.  Simple. Just like there is absolutely NOTHING unusual about there being Cat5e cable between the NID and the phone jack.  It's standard.  But you knew that of course.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Nov 14, 2018)

Fly by night... You mean Staples, B&H and I also saw the same over at Best Buy.
But please, go on and berate me, as clearly I'm just a fool for even trying to help.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 14, 2018)

TheLostSwede said:


> Fly by night... You mean Staples, B&H and I also saw the same over at Best Buy.
> But please, go on and berate me, as clearly I'm just a fool for even trying to help.


So they all scraped the same wrong information for their pages.  So basically what you're saying is that if Apple says the iphone XS has a 5.8" screen, but the Best Buy website processes the data wrong and lists it with a 6.5" screen, I should expect to get an XS in that size because Best Buy said so?  So sorry, but I'm still going to believe the manufacturer's specs and support staff over them.  And don't forget YOU started this with your snide remarks and condescending bullshit. You don't need to comment further, you are no longer welcome in this thread.  kthxbye.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 18, 2018)

@Bill_Bright  So I decided to try the SFP modem, being as there isn't any price difference but I figured it would be one less box in the closet if I could get it to work.  Well, it DOES work!  *BUT..*  Considering as its target audience is Telco techs not people who buy their computer stuff at Staples, AND DSL isn't a huge market in the US anyway, it was not exactly a user-friendly plug-n-play experience. It came with zero documentation besides a piece of paper the size of a Post-It note listing the RJ45 pinout and the function of the LEDs.  It took me a total of about 4 hours fiddle farting around and reading threads on European and Australian boards to get it sorted out.

So first I did just try the plug-n-play approach.  I VLAN'd ports 21 and 23 of my switch together and plugged the module into SFP23 and the WAN port of the pfSense box into 21. That didn't work. The modem had no issues training when the phone line was plugged in, it just wouldn't talk to pfSense. Similarly no joy plugging my laptop into port 21. It would not pull a DHCP address (it just stayed at 169 LL).   So I fired up Wireshark and saw that there was no DHCP response.

I thought I had maybe done something wrong setting up the VLAN to where it wasn't passing traffic, but when I hooked the Comtrend modem back up and ran its ethernet through ports 21/23 to the laptop I could get an IP and then log in with the Windows broadband dialer. So digging farther I found out that some ISPs (which it turned out mine is one of them) require a specific VLAN tag to be passed for access to the DSLAM (apparently a modem in bridge mode tags the packets as they pass through).  So I dug into the Comtrend and found out that it is VLAN4..  Changed the VLAN on the switch to 4, nothing. I've never really played with VLANs before so I didn't realize that the tags that the switch applies are stripped on the way out.  Turns out I had to put the switch ports into trunk mode to pass tags from the firewall to the modem, and set up pfSense to apply the VLAN4 tag to the WAN/PPoE interface.  Soon as I applied the new settings there, the ports got real chatty and I had internet!  

My speeds are improved but still not close enough to 100/100 yet. I tested 87/73, so it's definitely a capable modem..   Now I'm going to call the tech desk back on Monday and see if they can't do a little more tweaking on the DSLAM since they've been so helpful with me on this so far.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 18, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> AND DSL isn't a huge market in the US anyway, it was not exactly a user-friendly plug-n-play experience.



How do you figure utp service whether ADSL/VDSL isn't a huge market?
VDSL here goes from fiber to a VRAD which switches from light to a tone, then attached in the crossbox. ADSLAM RT (Fiber trunk) is where the DSLAM is in the neighborhood and not the CO, CO based DSLAM transfers the signal over utp to the Crossbox anywhere from 500 ft to 10000+, attenuation makes the speed way low when at 10000 Ft. 1.5Mbps & 768Kbps. So yes a VRAD and DSLAM-RT are ideal when doing copper outdoor plant


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 18, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> AND DSL isn't a huge market in the US anyway, it was not exactly a user-friendly plug-n-play experience.


Yeah, I don't know where you get your information but it is incorrect. While cable does dominate and grows at a faster rate than the Telco carriers, DSL still holds more than 35% of the market share. And that's still a "huge" market.

And I don't know what you mean by not a plug n' play experience. That's exactly what it was. 

You must not assume your "single" experience, Post-it note sized instructions represents how it works across the entire industry. Phone line to the WAN port of the DSL modem, Ethernet cable to a computer or router, and done - except for a coaxial cable instead of a phone line, same steps you do for a cable modem. 

Sorry you had so many problems, but your experience was an exception, not the norm. And exceptions don't make the rule.

Anyway, I am glad you got it going and thanks for the followup.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 19, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Yeah, I don't know where you get your information but it is incorrect. While cable does dominate and grows at a faster rate than the Telco carriers, DSL still holds more than 35% of the market share. And that's still a "huge" market.



My bad, I meant *V*DSL2, not DSL in general..  However according to census.gov, DSL only accounts for 21%. There's actually more households who don't have a paid internet subscription at all (25%) than use DSL.  Cable, mobile, and WISP account for 75% of total subscribers, with cable owning 50%.  No ISP in the US offers DSL service anywhere near 100/100, which it seems is why capable modems seem to be so hard to come by.  Centurylink is the only one that even comes close, with 100/10 VDSL2 available in some larger markets.  Most everyone else offers pretty pathetic "up to" speeds that reek of ADSL.



> And I don't know what you mean by not a plug n' play experience. That's exactly what it was.
> 
> You must not assume your "single" experience, Post-it note sized instructions represents how it works across the entire industry. Phone line to the WAN port of the DSL modem, Ethernet cable to a computer or router, and done - except for a coaxial cable instead of a phone line, same steps you do for a cable modem.
> 
> ...



Sorry but when something is plug n play it means there is little or no technical setup involved. It is designed for ease, ie: USB. Any non-straightforward steps should be and usually are included in an install sheet/manual.  I suppose that if one installed dozens of these a week and was well informed of the intricacies of its setup, it would be easy for them.  I did eventually figure out what needed to be done because I have tech background and know how to google and sift though a lot of garbage.  But there is no way in hell someone who is not tech oriented - someone who would actually use the "setup cd" and "wizards" to set up their router, or someone who has 37 different malware toolbars installed in their browser because they don't know any better when installing the latest "crush" game - would be able to get this thing running.  Hell, the leaflet this thing came with didn't even include the VPI/VCI table for setting it up with ADSL like its other variants do.  This thing was like installing hardware in an AT. Plug, tinker, change settings, tinker, read, tinker more, change more settings, cuss, read more, cuss more, tinker more, play.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 19, 2018)

> Sorry but when something is plug n play it means there is little or no technical setup involved.


Exactly. And the setup for DSL and cable typically are just that, plug them in and start surfing the Internet. Of course, the gateway device must be registered with the ISP and if you rent the device from your ISP, they are often pre-registered. If you buy it from the ISP or buy from another retailers (Amazon, Best Buy, etc.) you likely will have to call the ISP and provide the MAC address. It takes a few seconds (after hours on hold) for the authentication process to complete and you are good to go. But again, the steps are the same.


taz420nj said:


> But there is no way in hell someone who is not tech oriented - someone who would actually use the "setup cd" and "wizards" to set up their router...would be able to get this thing running.


Sorry, but that is just totally wrong! Customers do it all the time (with and without the setup CD).

What you are suggesting is that the vast majority of ISP customers would need an ISP technician to come out to just about every new subscriber's residence to set up their new Internet connections. NO WAY! That would just be silly and very expensive for the ISPs. And it is just not happening. Why? Because it typically is plug and play. 

How do I know? Because I live and run a little computer consulting and repair shop in a military and university town which means a large percentage of the population is in constant flux with individuals and families constantly moving in and out of the area. If what you claimed was true, my computer shop would be inundated with those type calls! Not happening!

A common mistake is users don't start in a powered off state for their computers and/or router. But a simple full power reset fixes that right up - and again, that is the same whether DSL or Cable (regardless what type of DSL too).



> or someone who has 37 different malware toolbars installed in their browser because they don't know any better when installing the latest "crush" game


That's just silly too. That is not your typical user. Again, exceptions don't make the rule. 

Sorry, but you really need to do your homework and not assume what you might see in your little corner of the universe represents the big picture. It clearly doesn't. And when doing your homework, make sure your sources are current.


taz420nj said:


> There's actually more households who don't have a paid internet subscription at all (25%)


Maybe way back in 2010. But today, it is closer to 11%. The "off-line" population has steadily decreased since the year 2000. But of course that has nothing to do with plug n play either.


----------



## taz420nj (Nov 19, 2018)

Bill_Bright said:


> Exactly. And the setup for DSL and cable typically are just that, plug them in and start surfing the Internet. Of course, the gateway device must be registered with the ISP and if you rent the device from your ISP, they are often pre-registered. If you buy it from the ISP or buy from another retailers (Amazon, Best Buy, etc.) you likely will have to call the ISP and provide the MAC address. It takes a few seconds (after hours on hold) for the authentication process to complete and you are good to go. But again, the steps are the same.
> Sorry, but that is just totally wrong! Customers do it all the time (with and without the setup CD).
> 
> What you are suggesting is that the vast majority of ISP customers would need an ISP technician to come out to just about every new subscriber's residence to set up their new Internet connections. NO WAY! That would just be silly and very expensive for the ISPs. And it is just not happening.
> ...




The key word being "typically". This is not a pre-provisioned ISP provided modem. There is nothing typical about it. THIS piece of equipment is NOT plug and play. There is nothing typical about its setup at all. As Swede said, it's just a dumb modem. It needs special setup in the switch and firewall in order for it to work, and that setup is largely undocumented. No average user would be able to set this thing up themselves





> That's just silly too. That is not your typical user. Again, exceptions don't make the rule.
> 
> Sorry, but you really need to do your homework and not assume what you might see in your little corner of the universe represents the big picture. It clearly doesn't. And when doing your homework, make sure your sources are current.



Yeah actually it definitely accurately describes a large segment of the computer using population. I also did computer repair - my own business - for 7 years. The largest part of my business was cleaning up peoples ignorance of malware.  Not just personal machines either, plenty of business machines were dripping with toolbars and download helpers and rogue search engines and every other piece if crapware known to man. But I guess i must just live in a dumb node.



> Maybe way back in 2010. But today, it is closer to 11%. The "off-line" population has steadily decreased since the year 2000. But of course that has nothing to do with plug n play either.



Yeah a Pew survey of 750 people is definitely a super accurate representation..  I put a lot more trust in the NTIA's number of 33 million households that do not have an internet subscription.  Theres about 127 million households in the US. So 25%.  https://www.ntia.doc.gov/blog/2016/digitally-unconnected-us-who-s-not-online-and-why


----------



## Bill_Bright (Nov 19, 2018)

taz420nj said:


> The key word being "typically". This is not a pre-provisioned ISP provided modem.


Exactly my point. You are trying to apply a non-typical scenarios to an entire industry. Such exceptions do NOT make the rule. You have made several statements based on your own "non-typical" scenario and equipment and applied them to all DSL scenarios.


taz420nj said:


> I also did computer repair - my own business - for 7 years. The largest part of my business was cleaning up peoples ignorance of malware. Not just personal machines either, plenty of business machines were dripping with toolbars and download helpers and rogue search engines and every other piece if crapware known to man. But I guess i must just live in a dumb node.


What does malware have to do with the price of rice in China in the summer time? About the same amount as that comment has to do with DSL and plug n play. 

This conversation is going no where. Have a good day.


----------

