# Pirate Bay Unveils "Portable Site", RIAA/MPAA's Worst Nightmare Weighs 90 Megabytes



## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

This is arguably every copyright enforcement group's worst nightmare, The Pirate Bay, which calls itself "the most resilient bit-torrent site in the galaxy", unveiled what is known as its "portable version", meaning, when taken down by an enforcement agency, any person, in any part of the world can restore the site, because it now weighs just 90 megabytes. That's right, the 90 MB copy of the site itself contains all its HTML, script and static images, and Magnet Links to over 1,643,194 torrents spread across all its categories. 

A little earlier this year, The Pirate Bay transitioned from being a host for .torrent files to a host for magnet:// links. This transition means that each torrent consisted of a typically 50 KB .torrent file, is now reduced to a <1 KB Magnet link in the resource. The copy of the site itself is there for anyone to copy. Enforcement agencies' worst nightmare indeed weighs just 90 MB. 





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## pantherx12 (Feb 10, 2012)

Have to hand it to the piratebay, they are stubborn and clever ha ha.


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## AlienIsGOD (Feb 10, 2012)

very, very interesting.  I want to see where this leads....


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

Crack pipe for crack heads.


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## specks (Feb 10, 2012)

This is good news.


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## Mussels (Feb 10, 2012)

piracy is here to stay, and will never end. they should give up trying and just go for people selling physical copies, and doing the cracking/original uploading.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 10, 2012)

Honestly I would love to have a thumb drive like this


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

Pirate Bay forever! 

Haha, take that, suckers!


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

qubit said:


> Pirate Bay forever!
> 
> Haha, take that, suckers!



Down with personal ownership and self responsibility!


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## pantherx12 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Down with personal ownership and self responsibility!



That's the spirit!


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## naoan (Feb 10, 2012)

Now share the torrent of that entire site for the world to make backup! 

Edit: Oh they already did that, I thought it was internal backup


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## entropy13 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Down with personal ownership and self responsibility!



Isn't that the status quo already? More or less? A single human being owning intellectual property and being responsible to his/her own IP is dwindling greatly in the past decades.

Although technically it's still "personal" ownership and "self" responsibility since companies and corporations are also "individuals".


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## mtosev (Feb 10, 2012)

haha. this is funny


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## claylomax (Feb 10, 2012)

brandonwh64 said:


> Honestly I would love to have a thumb drive like this
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/img/12-02-10/76a_thm.jpg



Me too!


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## SaiZo (Feb 10, 2012)

For every problem, there is always a solution. They found one.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

Maybe this is a plant. When people get this is scans their computer bypassing any firewalls or proxy they may normally hide behind and sends their info to the RIAA?!?


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## kimbrasil (Feb 10, 2012)

That is a good news for our own liberty rights, and is not good for the real thieves that don't like we share.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Down with personal ownership and self responsibility!



lol


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## Completely Bonkers (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Maybe this is a plant. When people get this is scans their computer bypassing any firewalls or proxy they may normally hide behind and sends their info to the RIAA?!?


You make me *want* to download it, just to see.


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## RejZoR (Feb 10, 2012)

It's nothing wrong with piracy really. It's a natural part of the software eco-system. And if they blindly believe that by 100% stopping the piracy, their sales would skyrocket, they are sadly very mistaken. What they'd do is to push customers even further back into thinking twice before handing over ANY money. But today anyone can grab a copy on P2P and if you think they deserve the money, you'll also buy it. If you think they don't deserve it, you'll probably erase the content even before finishing it. P2P is also a good source of backup copies. Once my CD of the legendary game System Shock 2 got scratched. Without P2P i'd be doomed. But instead, i found a bit perfect copy on the interwebs, downloaded it, burned and i now have it next to the scratched original. And i had the same scenario with Screamer 2 game. P2P savez!


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## tedy (Feb 10, 2012)

what is magnet link?


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## entropy13 (Feb 10, 2012)

tedy said:


> what is magnet link?



A link. No file is being hosted. Essentially if you get a magnet link, it finds "itself" in your peers, and then gets "itself" among them. It's just like torrent files, except instead of a .torrent file being hosted, you "torrent" the torrent file itself first.


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## tedy (Feb 10, 2012)

which "torrent" sites offer this magnet link?


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## entropy13 (Feb 10, 2012)

tedy said:


> which "torrent" sites offer this magnet link?



Several.  Right now it's the "alternate" to torrents, but it looks like they're migrating to magnet links. Well, TPB anyway. And the clients are still compatible with magnet links.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> It's nothing wrong with piracy really. It's a natural part of the software eco-system. And if they blindly believe that by 100% stopping the piracy, their sales would skyrocket, they are sadly very mistaken. What they'd do is to push customers even further back into thinking twice before handing over ANY money. But today anyone can grab a copy on P2P and if you think they deserve the money, you'll also buy it. If you think they don't deserve it, you'll probably erase the content even before finishing it. P2P is also a good source of backup copies. Once my CD of the legendary game System Shock 2 got scratched. Without P2P i'd be doomed. But instead, i found a bit perfect copy on the interwebs, downloaded it, burned and i now have it next to the scratched original. And i had the same scenario with Screamer 2 game. P2P savez!



Or you could just read reviews and make back ups of your physical disks....you know like what people used to do BEFORE stealing was viewed as ok because people are cheap and lazy?


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## NinkobEi (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Or you could just read reviews and make back ups of your physical disks....you know like what people used to do BEFORE stealing was viewed as ok because people are cheap and lazy?



hop down off that high horse of yours


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Mindless trolling man. Any non-mod could get in trouble for that sort of stuff... you're as corrupt as TPB owners... :shadedshu



Its not a troll. Its a fact. Its a tool for junkies. Torrent junkies.



NinkobEi said:


> hop down off that high horse of yours



High horse? Because I believe in personal responsibility and hard work I'm on a high horse? Ill tell you what man. When the S#!t hits the fan people who subscribe to this "everything should be free" attitude are gonna have a rude awakening.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't own a TV and even if I did, I still wouldn't be able to watch all the TV shows I am downloading from torrent sites. So yes, long live Pirate Bay!!!!


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its not a troll. Its a fact. Its a tool for junkies. Torrent junkies.



You're a hypocrite man. You're acting like you never download a torrent in your entire life. Stop trolling others.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> You're a hypocrite man. You're acting like you never download a torrent in your entire life. Stop trolling others.



I have never used a torrent in my life. I don't even know how. No joke.


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## twilyth (Feb 10, 2012)

I'd like to stay and chat, but I've got a bunch of shit I need to download.


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## Halk (Feb 10, 2012)

Torrenting isn't ok. However the copyright laws we have aren't ok either. Nor are the content delivery platforms we (don't) have.

Spotify and the like will eventually be CD quality, lossless. Eventually all artists will be on it, and at that point there's simply no need for piracy as long as you can subscribe for a small amount.

If they can do it with music then they can do it with TV and movies too. They're already starting to go there with Netflix and Lovefilm etc. They'll get there in the end.

If you think about it, 10 years ago what band wouldn't release on CD? None (if you exclude exceptions like people doing vinyl only etc). So what company won't release on whatever content delivery networks we get? None.

At that point when piracy is pretty much pointless then it'll be a choice of a Netflix subscription or some kind of shady competitor based in in a BRIC country, where the service isn't quite as good. 

Until then someone who isn't me (SWIM) has a slice of a server in a hosting company in another country used as a seedbox and a SSH tunnel, and only ever connects to it highly encrypted.. and SWIM doesn't pay for media.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Or you could just read reviews and make back ups of your physical disks....you know like what people used to do BEFORE stealing was viewed as ok because people are cheap and lazy?



Those setup discs are usually copy protected so something like Nero won't clone them, therefore, what _legal_ backup can you make then?

Just go out and buy it all over again (if it's even still available). Yeah, sure, like that's a reasonable demand to make...



TheMailMan78 said:


> I have never used a torrent in my life. I don't even know how. No joke.



Seriously man, you should try it, just so you get a feel for how it works - it's just another protocol after all. And no, I'm not trying to encourage you to pirate or troll you. Grab something totally legit like a Linix distro or something to see how it works.  BitTorrent is a fantastic system and watching it in action is fascinating.


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## Mr McC (Feb 10, 2012)




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## Wrigleyvillain (Feb 10, 2012)

qubit said:


> - it's just another protocol after all. Grab something totally legit like a Linix distro or something to see how it works.  BitTorrent is a fantastic system and watching it in action is fascinating.



Can't argue with that.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

Piracy will exist in full swing until companies get the point....I'm not looking for free shit but I'm not gonna pay for cable so I can pay for an additional channel so I can watch 1 stinkin show!...

When they catch up with technology and let the old ways go Piracy will fizzle to a minimum but it will always exist.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

qubit said:


> Those setup discs are usually copy protected so something like Nero won't clone them, therefore, what _legal_ backup can you make then?
> 
> Just go out and buy it all over again (if it's even still available). Yeah, sure, like that's a reasonable demand to make...


OR you could just take better care of your stuff. You break a TV doesnt mean you can go to the store and take a new one for free. 


Wrigleyvillain said:


> Can't argue with that.


 For what? I dont need anything I cannot afford.


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## Scheich (Feb 10, 2012)

Does it matter, really ? Their marketing sux, no clue how to innovate and go with flow / internet. Let them drown in their stupidness. This is disgusting.

And a nice finger from the PB.


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## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

Let's keep this discussion civil.


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## mechtech (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I have never used a torrent in my life. I don't even know how. No joke.



Same here.  I just find shareware/trial and if it's good I buy it.  Then again I don't really listen to music or movies.

No viruses or other BS when you buy legit from the manf. either.  I have never pirated a game in my life either, I don't see the point when you can grab them off steam on sale for next to nothing anyway.

However one does have to admire the work and ingenuity that went into that thing though.


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## heky (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> OR you could just take better care of your stuff. You break a TV doesnt mean you can go to the store and take a new one for free.
> Quote:



If you could copy a TV at home you wouldnt have to! And just fot your information, you CAN get a new TV if you break it, its called extended warranty where i come from, and its only like 50€, for a 1000€ TV!


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## NinkobEi (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> OR you could just take better care of your stuff. You break a TV doesnt mean you can go to the store and take a new one for free.



If a TV could be 'backed up' or downloaded for little or no extra cost, you bet your ass I'd expect a new one for free.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 10, 2012)

mechtech said:


> Same here.  I just find shareware/trial and if it's good I buy it.  Then again I don't really listen to music or movies.
> 
> No viruses or other BS when you buy legit from the manf. either.  I have never pirated a game in my life either, I don't see the point when you can grab them off steam on sale for next to nothing anyway.
> 
> However one does have to admire the work and ingenuity that went into that thing though.



For sure. Its VERY cool. Gotta give em that!


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> OR you could just take better care of your stuff. You break a TV doesnt mean you can go to the store and take a new one for free.



Damn, that's flawed in just so many ways. Whatever.

And seriously, try BitTorrent, it'll cost you nothing and you might find it illuminating.


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## mechtech (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> For what? I dont need anything I cannot afford.



Then you are more fortunate than most Americans.  I would classify post secondary education as a need and there is a lot of people who can't afford that.


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## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> OR you could just take better care of your stuff. You break a TV doesnt mean you can go to the store and take a new one for free.
> For what? I dont need anything I cannot afford.



The media your software ships in is just a 'container'. If you bought a copy of Windows and happened to break its media (evil cat scratched the hell out of it), then it's not only ethical, but also legal to get an .iso from a torrent-site, burn it, and use the key your copy came with when installing the software.

Now if your cat was an evil reincarnation of Hitler that is plotting to kill you, and also happened to scratch off the key sticker, then I guess it's 'ethical' to download a crack, you know you paid for the software. And later deal with the cat.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> The media your software ships in is just a 'container'. If you bought a copy of Windows and happened to break its media (evil cat scratched the hell out of it), then it's not only ethical, but also legal to get an .iso from a torrent-site, burn it, and use the key your copy came with when installing the software.
> 
> Now if your cat was an evil reincarnation of Hitler, and also happened to scratch off the key sticker, then I guess it's 'ethical' to download a crack, you know you paid for the software.



Damn right, well said. 

Especially that evil Hitler cat...


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## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

Oh and what about a Machine Limit?

That's like saying that you went down to a Stereo shop and had a custom made speaker box made for your car and having to pay the guy for it again when you get another car...It's just plain stupid.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> For what? I dont need anything I cannot afford.



The point is there is also some good, free software as well such as Linux distros avail over BT as it's the best protocol for distributing large files which is why it's the pirate's protocol of choice. The decentralized nature is simply how it works so well and effectively; it wasn't designed and implemented that way specifically in order to more easily and safely share copyrighted material.

Hate the Game, not the Playa


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## Darkleoco (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> OR you could just take better care of your stuff. You break a TV doesnt mean you can go to the store and take a new one for free.



:shadedshu That is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have ever seen when it comes to digital content. You are paying for your personal right to that content not only whatever physical media it may be distributed on.


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## R_1 (Feb 10, 2012)

Sorry, wrong thread.


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## erocker (Feb 10, 2012)

@Mailman.. Might as well give up man. People will take/have/be entitled to whatever they want. Piracy is just a drop in the bucket in this case. I don't want to get too much further into it, but as you can see there's this "financial crisis" happening all over the world. Why? Entitlements to those that don't work for them. We have become a welfare world and it's too late to change that until eveything crashes and dies. So.. chin up little buddy, might as well get with the gettin' while the gettin' is good. 

I get a lot of my television through the Pirate Bay. I have my usb stick ready.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 10, 2012)

erocker said:


> @MailMan.. Might as well give up man. People will take/have/be entitled to whatever they want. Piracy is just a drop in the bucket in this case. I don't want to get too much further into it, but as you can see there's this "financial crisis" happening all over the world. Why? Entitlements to those that don't work for them. We have become a welfare world and it's too late to change that until eveything crashes and dies. So.. chin up little buddy, might as well get with the gettin' while the gettin' is good.
> 
> I get a lot of my television through the Pirate Bay. I have my usb stick ready.



I must say, this is one of the best posts I have seen in a VERY long time here at TPU.


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## Solaris17 (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its not a troll. Its a fact. Its a tool for junkies. Torrent junkies.
> 
> 
> 
> High horse? Because I believe in personal responsibility and hard work I'm on a high horse? Ill tell you what man. When the S#!t hits the fan people who subscribe to this "everything should be free" attitude are gonna have a rude awakening.



good information technology etc should be free. It isnt anyones problem that artists etc still blow 10k on photoshop and cant sell shit. didnt like gigabyte or something steal your logo for their black ops cards? that must have totally sucked. I cant wait for the global collapse of commerce for the free market. I doubt ill be alive to see it but i admit I love the build up.


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## cadaveca (Feb 10, 2012)

Solaris17 said:


> good information technology etc should be free.



There's nothing that says *anything* should be free, other than people's own opinion's of self-entitlement. 

Because it's based on personal opinion, this discussion can go nowhere. I'm surprised you guys are still at it.

Anyway, if something is good, and helps(whether morally, or jsut helps pass the time), you should be more than willing to pony up some comphensation. Many do, many do not. The issue resolves around those that do pay, and those that do not.


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> The media your software ships in is just a 'container'. If you bought a copy of Windows and happened to break its media (evil cat scratched the hell out of it), then it's not only ethical, but also legal to get an .iso from a torrent-site, burn it, and use the key your copy came with when installing the software.
> 
> Now if your cat was an evil reincarnation of Hitler that is plotting to kill you, and also happened to scratch off the key sticker, then I guess it's 'ethical' to download a crack, you know you paid for the software. And later deal with the cat.



Moot point. I don't own a cat, but I know not to leave things that have a large expense associated with them laying around for a cat (or whatever) to destroy.

I agree with MM in everything he says. It is only unfortunate that I have dabbled in the black arts, and so can not be as shiny as he is. I do not torrent now though.

You get what you work for.


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## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> Moot point. I don't own a cat, but I know not to leave things that have a large expense associated with them laying around for a cat (or whatever) to destroy.
> 
> I agree with MM in everything he says. It is only unfortunate that I have dabbled in the black arts, and so can not be as shiny as he is. I do not torrent now though.
> 
> You get what you work for.



You do realise that the media the software ships in is called a "media" (something that facilitates the transfer of something else) in the first place, for the simple reason that that's what it's meant to do? It's a container. A nice shiny container. It's the right to use the software that you're paying for.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> Moot point. I don't own a cat, but I know not to leave things that have a large expense associated with them laying around for a cat (or whatever) to destroy.
> 
> I agree with MM in everything he says. *It is only unfortunate that I have dabbled in the black arts, and so can not be as shiny as he is.* I do not torrent now though.
> 
> You get what you work for.



MM has - _shock!_ - downloaded illegally before, but also doesn't do this any more. He's confessed to this in several posts in other threads now, so he's not 100% shiny either. Don't feel too bad about it.


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## mtosev (Feb 10, 2012)

I mostly download back ups of the stuff I own. cds/dvds get damaged, i'm lazy to rip my cds/dvds, i downloaded stuff while waiting for my orders to arrive via the post office. over 90% of my stuff is legal. too bad companies don't provide a way for customers to download legal back up copies of the stuff they legally own.


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## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

Solaris17 said:


> good information technology etc should be free.



Then who will pay for "bad information technology etc"?


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## cadaveca (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> Then who will pay for "bad information technology etc"?



I just hear(read) a lot of "I don't want to pay for anything, so the economy can crash. Doesn't matter to me."


Of course, once it does crash, and you cannot go to the store to get a grain of rice or a sip of milk, they won't be happy either. It's a silly discussion that barely even deserves to be discussed.


You either contribute to society, and the economy, or you don't. It's pretty clear what side most are on, and the correllation between those that contribute to society, and those who are successful, tend to be the same group. I don't think I need to finish that thought, do I? Hmm, by some of the posts here, maybe I should.

But why bother?

Now, back to benching for a review.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> There's nothing that says *anything* should be free, other than people's own opinion's of self-entitlement.
> 
> Because it's based on personal opinion, this discussion can go nowhere. I'm surprised you guys are still at it.
> 
> Anyway, if something is good, and helps(whether morally, or jsut helps pass the time), you should be more than willing to pony up some comphensation. Many do, many do not. The issue resolves around those that do pay, and those that do not.



I agree and disagree with this...I have no problem paying for what I want..I do have a problem with being forced to pay for a bunch of poo that I don't want in order to get it..

And I don't feel bad for these people either...I can't tell you how many times I bought a CD thinking it was good only to find out the only good song was the one that was free to hear on the radio...Or how many times I've bought software only to have it unusable because of bugs and it never got fixed and here I was thinking I was buying a reliable product.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 10, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I have never used a torrent in my life. I don't even know how. No joke.



Indeed. Before torrents, you "borrowed" a game from a friend on floppies or tape/music CDs, even a video tape with some movie?? If you say you didn't I call you a LIAR. Actually, everything is borrowing from the friends. The thing with torrents is I can borrow stuff from my friends across the oceans, continents, etc. Is not like I am going to sell their stuff. Watch and delete. Listen and delete. Play and delete. Just like borrowing stuff from by best friend.  Only in this case give back means delete.


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## Solaris17 (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> Then who will pay for "bad information technology etc"?



probably the asians. dont they buy the shirts of the teams that lost the world cup super bowel etc?


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> You do realise that the media the software ships in is called a "media" (something that facilitates the transfer of something else) in the first place, for the simple reason that that's what it's meant to do? It's a container. A nice shiny container. It's the right to use the software that you're paying for.



My point is that I will keep things of value nice and safe, so I would not have to resort to pirating in the firs place.


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 10, 2012)

qubit said:


> MM has - _shock!_ - downloaded illegally before, but also doesn't do this any more. He's confessed to this in several posts in other threads now, so he's not 100% shiny either. Don't feel too bad about it.



Sigh. Ignorance is bliss to you I guess.


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## cadaveca (Feb 10, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> I agree and disagree with this...I have no problem paying for what I want..I do have a problem with being forced to pay for a bunch of poo that I don't want in order to get it..
> 
> And I don't feel bad for these people either...I can't tell you how many times I bought a CD thinking it was good only to find out the only good song was the one that was free to hear on the radio...Or how many times I've bought software only to have it unusable because of bugs and it never got fixed and here I was thinking I was buying a reliable product.



Like BTA said..someone has to pay for the bad software, so that good softwre cn be developed, basedon the faults the bad has.


Really, I look at life in general with the attitude "You gotta have the bad to know what good is". Ying-Yang...all that. These thoughts centered around good vs. evil..all of it...it's an esotherical thought, but it's true.

I don't need to "pirate" anything to figure this out. However, the same thing keep me fomr being a "pirate".


Anyway, recently someone pirated some stuff of mine. Of course, most don't ahve this example, so don't have any perspective..they've never seen the bad side of it, so I don't find them entirely at fault, but it's kinda ignorant to ignore the big picture. Rather than treat the symptoms...you need to treat the source of the problem...and bad software just isn't the source of the problem.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> Sigh. Ignorance is bliss to you I guess.



Oh yeah, so just how am I 'ignorant'? lol. Let's see if you can give a straight answer to this one. 

My post is quite clear for anyone to understand and sets the record straight...


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## Solaris17 (Feb 10, 2012)

we should let up on personal insults and attacks and stick to facts. like the missed comma in my post above and the foolish responses and retorts to that post which was unfortunetely taken out of context.


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## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> My point is that I will keep things of value nice and safe, so I would not have to resort to pirating in the firs place.



And my point is if you've purchased software, and happened to merely break its media (accidents happen), then getting its .iso from a torrent-site and using your key is not illegal. 

The media is not the product, your license to use the software is the product.


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## brandonwh64 (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> And my point is if you've purchased software, and happened to merely break its media (accidents happen), then getting its .iso from a torrent-site and using your key is not illegal.









I love Fish and chips!


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## twilyth (Feb 10, 2012)

No one is going to listen, but I'll say it anyway.  If there were a little less absolutism and a little more flexibility, I think things would work out just fine.

I never thought I would hold Microsoft up as an example, but what they did with their Technet program was pure genius - especially in how they implemented it.  They said, give us $150 per year and we'll give you license keys to most of our software - every OS, Office and huge pile of other stuff - not everything, but damn near everything.  

Further, we'll justify that by pretending that you're a "developer" and you need all this shit for "testing."  As long as we don't see software keyed to your account logging in from Somalia, Afghanistan and other lawless regions, like Belgium for example, we're cool.  But most people who subscribe aren't developing jack - at least not on their home machines.  I'm quite sure this comes as no surprise to folks in Redmond either.

It's a perfect example of 'you give me something I think is valuable and I'll return the favor.'  They know that as long as they only go after egregious abusers of the licenses, they'll get paid and their user base will be happy.  As long as you're willing to be fair and flexible, things will work out.  It's when you start getting the damned lawyers involved that it all goes to shit.


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## cadaveca (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> And my point is if you've purchased software, and happened to merely break its media (accidents happen), then getting its .iso from a torrent-site and using your key is not illegal.
> 
> The media is not the product, your license to use the software is the product.



Most companies will replace broken media for a small fee, even. I've used such services from Microsoft, Apple, and gmae companies. Never paid more than $15, shipping included.


And the whole reason they replace the media is quite specifically as you state...tehy are selling a liscence to the software, not the software itself. The actual disc itself holds very little value, period, and having a physical copy of software DOES NOT entitle you to a liscence to use it.

And because of that, things like Ubisoft's always-online DRM doesn't bother me one bit. IF access to teh media wasn't so easy via place like Pirate Bay...there'd be no need for DRM. Having used software since long before torrents, I realize that the inception of pervasive DRM has grown along with torrenting and similar softwares. There's no real question of which was hte chicken, and which was the egg.


----------



## btarunr (Feb 10, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Most companies will replace broken media for a small fee, even. I've used such services from Microsoft, Apple, and gmae companies. Never paid more than $15, shipping included.
> 
> 
> And the whole reason they replace the media is quite specifically as you state...tehy are selling a liscence to the software, not the software itself. The actual disc itself holds very little value, period, and having a physical copy of software DOES NOT entitle you to a liscence to use it.



That kind of media-replacement is a scam on companies' part. What they're doing is making you pay for what is essentially part of the packaging of the software. Software is not a physical object. The disc the software ships in is not software, it's like the plastic jewel-case the disc ships in, which is like the paperboard cover the jewel-case ships in.  

One exception would be software that's shipped on Sony DADC SecuROM discs, in such cases, the media is also a component in the software (part of its DRM), and so it would be fair to buy replacement media from companies for a nominal fee.


----------



## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

twilyth said:


> No one is going to listen, but I'll say it anyway.  If there were a little less absolutism and a little more flexibility, I think things would work out just fine.
> 
> I never thought I would hold Microsoft up as an example, but what they did with their Technet program was pure genius - especially in how they implemented it.  They said, give us $150 per year and we'll give you license keys to most of our software - every OS, Office and huge pile of other stuff - not everything, but damn near everything.
> 
> ...



Brilliant point.  Show absolutism the door.

I've bought one TechNet sub so far and got thousands upon thousands of grand of software - and all legit. I'm using Windows 7 Ultimate, Office 2003 (yes, I prefer it) and various server OSs, all from this one purchase. On top of that, you get multiple keys for each product. What a bargain! 

If Windows 8 isn't a total dog when it comes out, I'll renew my licence then specifically to get it.


----------



## cadaveca (Feb 10, 2012)

btarunr said:


> That kind of media-replacement is a scam on companies' part. What they're essentially doing is making you pay for what is essentially part of the packaging of the software. Software is not a physical object. The disc the software ships in is not software, it's like the plastic jewel-case the disc ships in, which is like the paperboard cover the jewel-case ships in.
> 
> One exception would be software that's shipped on Sony DADC SecuROM discs, in such cases, the media is also a component in the software (part of its DRM), and so it would be fair to buy replacement media from companies for a nominal fee.



Of course,...I'm just saying that it's not nessecary to resort to a torrent or whatever to get repalcement media.

I don't mind paying $20 for someone to stuff an envelope and send it my way, scam or not.


But also, I'm that guy working for TPU for nodda. So maybe my perspective is invalid to many. Oh well.




BTW, it's written in the lawbooks here that obtaining alternative media, if you purchased a software, is 100% legal. As is circumventing DRM if the DRM is problematic, or comes on a USB fob that is no longer produced. I'm not going to argue that side of things at all, just saying that that is not the only avenue of recourse.


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## WhiteLotus (Feb 10, 2012)

qubit said:


> Oh yeah, so just how am I 'ignorant'? lol. Let's see if you can give a straight answer to this one.
> 
> My post is quite clear for anyone to understand and sets the record straight...



You do not understand his, or my own, objections to pirating and the whole moral "high ground" we take on the matter is in fact showing other people the lack of morals that they have. 

The whole "I have the right to <insert whatever>" is completely and utterly misguided. No body has the right to ANYTHING.


----------



## Wrigleyvillain (Feb 10, 2012)

In response to erocker--Yeah a welfare state combined with corporate crooks and too much stupid risk and speculation.

For the record, this has not been the case in Germany for a couple few decades which is why they have their heads well above water and probably will have to bail out these other schmucks like Greece or the EU is in a bad way.


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## qubit (Feb 10, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> You do not understand his, or my own, objections to pirating and the whole moral "high ground" we take on the matter is in fact showing other people the lack of morals that they have.
> 
> The whole "I have the right to <insert whatever>" is completely and utterly misguided. No body has the right to ANYTHING.



Ok, fine. I was just correcting your thought that MM had never pirated. He had and now doesn't - a reformed character, if you like - that's all, so you shouldn't feel so bad about the fact you did. 

Regarding that moral high ground...

Rights holders are by no means squeaky clean in this area, by a long shot. Generally, these big companies, fronted by their odious RIAA/MPAA make out that no matter what they do to inconvenience customers (enter draconian DRM, Ubisoft shutting down DRM servers for maintenance, good example) whether they have legitimately lost media, just wanna play a game on a different computer etc etc, unauthorised downloading is wrong under _all circumstances_, has lost them sales (gimme a break) and should be punished with the absolute ultimate in draconian punishments. Heck, they'd probably call for the death sentence if they could.  Let's face it, the likes of the RIAA/MPAA are calling for this kind of sh*t (not the death sentence - yet?) and it's total BS. They would stick you in the slammer for the rest of your life though and nail you for millions in alleged, ie made up, unverifiable 'damages'.

That isn't even the worst of it. Sites like Techdirt often expose hypocrisies of those very same f* 'rights holders' abusing others by doing the same things themselves, plagiarising work, claiming copyright on public doman works and that of others in some instances (yes, those YouTube takedowns reported by Techdirt of works that aren't even theres are a fine example) and lots and lots of other BS abuses.

What it's really about, is ultimate control of distribution, with those big media companies acting as the gatekeepers to _all_ content that you consume. Conversely, that means, that no artist of any kind could produce art (music, acting, paintings, whatever) without signing some horrendously one-sided contract where they give all their rights away to these companies in the hope of making some money from their craft. If you think I'm wrong, then you really need to take a closer look at this.


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## Rowsol (Feb 10, 2012)

This was a good read.


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## Steevo (Feb 10, 2012)

Fries, not chips. 


Yes, we are not paying for the media like we pay for a car, we are paying for the use of the content on the media, much like renting a car with unlimited miles.


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## xBruce88x (Feb 10, 2012)

I thought about it... and realized that if i truely responded to this it'd be an epic wall of text similar to my writing portion of my high school graduation tests ( a good two pages or more) so i will simply throw some quotes out there with a short response.



btarunr said:


> The media your software ships in is just a 'container'. If you bought a copy of Windows and happened to break its media (evil cat scratched the hell out of it), then it's not only ethical, but also legal to get an .iso from a torrent-site, burn it, and use the key your copy came with when installing the software..



+1



mtosev said:


> I mostly download back ups of the stuff I own. cds/dvds get damaged, i'm lazy to rip my cds/dvds, i downloaded stuff while waiting for my orders to arrive via the post office. over 90% of my stuff is legal. *too bad companies don't provide a way for customers to download legal back up copies of the stuff they legally own.*



Some do, Valve/Steam, EA's Origin (i think, haven't actually used it), Blizzard, and GOG.com to name a few. As for others... that's what TPB is for. downloading a copy of the software that you own a license to use is not stealing... since you're copying the data, not moving it from the developer/publisher's server to your computer, and assuming you have a "key" or license to use said software (that you paid for, not a keygen of course). I almost wish music cd's had keys with them... since your pretty much paying for the right to listen to the music any time you want via the media. but i guess that's what things like iTunes and the like are for.




Rowsol said:


> This was a good read.


Indeed it was.


----------



## mtosev (Feb 10, 2012)

i use gog.com too. i was talking about when you buy psysical stuff like cds/dvds. most of the stuff i own i can't legaly download if the cd brakes.


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## cadaveca (Feb 10, 2012)

xBruce88x said:


> I almost wish music cd's had keys with them... since your pretty much paying for the right to listen to the music any time you want via the media. but i guess that's what things like iTunes and the like are for.



iTunes used to offer one-time-only downloads of purchased media. Now you may download your purchased media as often as needed(which isn't often for most), so in a way your request has already been answered, to a degree.


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## a_ump (Feb 10, 2012)

lmfao hahaha, this is fucking great! I don't support the idea of stealing, but i don't support the idea of total control, which i feel in America is most definitely starting to bear down upon it's citizens and business peoples. What can i say, i enjoy seeing my own government getting smacked in the face for tryin to control the internet. Yes i've read, other countries make their own decisions, but IMO America's government is THE biggest reason for this recent push to basically control the internet and what's on it.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 10, 2012)

WhiteLotus said:


> The whole "I have the right to <insert whatever>" is completely and utterly misguided.


And I think a simple extension of an existing product and copyrighting or claiming it as your own is misguided~to some degree...
Yes I believe people should be rewarded for their work but I think they or some corporation should only have the right to hold onto to that extension for a limited amount of time...

It's currently 50 years after the life of the original Author/Creator/Artist and 75 years for Corporations.
Copyright Term Extension Act

Those laws are meant to encourage creativity and innovation and I just don't see how that's possible. If anything they are discouraging..

It's nothing more than Corporate Welfare.....and as far as the artists go they either need to keep creating or go broke...There should be no reason for them to rest on their laurels....Imagine if everyone was treated equally on those regards...mechanics could retire after fixing three or four cars but I think we all know that's absolutely ridiculous and so are the laws that protect Intellectual Properties....


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## Delta6326 (Feb 11, 2012)

I support torrents... Just not illegal torrents


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## DannibusX (Feb 11, 2012)

I can't wait for the day that the internet allows me to download an extra inch or two.


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## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Feb 11, 2012)

hahaha! in yo face RIAA/MPAA


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## kid41212003 (Feb 11, 2012)

people simply love seeing piratebay pissing off these greedy evil corps

they get rich by leeching and _controlling_ the artists

new artists sign contracts that put them in a bad spot, but they will get mass marketing in return

think about that... singers that don't really sound good still get famous while some sound really good but aren't


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## Yo_Wattup (Feb 11, 2012)

mechtech said:


> Same here.  I just find shareware/trial and if it's good I buy it.  Then again I don't really listen to music or movies.
> 
> No viruses or other BS when you buy legit from the manf. either.  I have never pirated a game in my life either, I don't see the point when you can grab them off steam on sale for next to nothing anyway.
> 
> However one does have to admire the work and ingenuity that went into that thing though.



I have never gotten a virus from downloading anything. Whoever gets viruses on any computer system s a n00b. 

I am like you with the shareware/trial thing, only my version of the shareware is the entire illegal copy of it. If it's good, I'll buy the product. Examples include BF3, Skyrim, Hard Reset, Dead Island etc etc; all of which I bought after pirating. If there weren't so many shit/overpriced games, these days, I wouldn't need to do this. An example would be Just Cause 2; saw this for $70 in EB games the other day, so I went home and pirated it, and it turned out to be a great pile of steaming turd. I don't like paying $70 for faeces. At least with other products, you know what you get before you buy it, not with games/software. 



brandonwh64 said:


> http://tpucdn.com/forums/customavatars/avatar43587_25.gif
> 
> I love Fish and chips!



Am am now cooking fish and chips solely because of this post.


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## dude12564 (Feb 11, 2012)

kid41212003 said:


> people simply love seeing piratebay pissing off these greedy evil corps
> 
> they get rich by leeching and _controlling_ the artists
> 
> ...



The irony of this world.


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## Mussels (Feb 11, 2012)

in a world where game companies make sure there is no try before you buy option (demos) and no refunds once you do buy (single use CD keys/DLC codes, etc and attempts to kill off second hand console market - PC second hand market is long dead), they wonder why people resort to piracy.


as much as some artists like themailman rant about how they want protection, the point is simple - the current system offers no such thing. you should be twice as motivated as any casual pirate to get the system changed, because you and the consumers of your 'art' are simply not protected, only big business is.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh my the industries are in for certain doom now. Chaos will rain dear lord the Mayans were right!

No one will work, no one will make money, the economy will bust and the world will end!

2012 all from 90MB of Data on a 512MB FlashDrive. 512 + 90 + 1410 = 2012!!!! 

DOOOOOM DOOOOOOOOOOM! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. 

All hail the mighty Drive


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## w3b (Feb 11, 2012)

*'Bring out your dead'*

If people could forgive the immaturity of this post might I simply say to the MAFIAA:

"Check Mate" 

...and I don't even use torrents 

Great thread, carry on with the top quality posts


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## TurdFergasun (Feb 11, 2012)

Mussels said:


> in a world where game companies make sure there is no try before you buy option (demos) and no refunds once you do buy (single use CD keys/DLC codes, etc and attempts to kill off second hand console market - PC second hand market is long dead), they wonder why people resort to piracy.
> 
> 
> as much as some artists like themailman rant about how they want protection, the point is simple - the current system offers no such thing. you should be twice as motivated as any casual pirate to get the system changed, because you and the consumers of your 'art' are simply not protected, only big business is.



Problem is most artists see the golden trough and all the pigs in the media gorging themselves insatiably on profits, and they want their piece of the pie before the show's over.  There is no objective viewpoint, they're just not willing to bite the hand that they hope will feed them one day.  Anti p2p artists are no less on the entitelment bandwagon than those they're pointing fingers at, except they're willing to sacrifice your democratic freedoms, so that their potential lottery ticket stays nice and fat.


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## Bundy (Feb 11, 2012)

Apologies to the moralists in this thread but HAHAHA I am sooo pleased the TPB did this. The answer to the piracy problem is not to kill the pirates (there are too many of them), it is to remove the desire to pirate. That might happen if prices were dropped a little.


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## pr0n Inspector (Feb 11, 2012)

Bundy said:


> Apologies to the moralists in this thread but HAHAHA I am sooo pleased the TPB did this. The answer to the piracy problem is not to kill the pirates (there are too many of them), it is to remove the desire to pirate. That might happen if prices were dropped a little.



Why would a shameless person pay for something that he can get for free?


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## Yo_Wattup (Feb 11, 2012)

pr0n Inspector said:


> Why would a shameless person pay for something that he can get for free?



Because software is way overpriced, but paid software almost always has advantages over pirated software (eg. online play for games) and if they were priced appropriately, people would buy the actual software because it'd be worth it.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 11, 2012)

One question for the moralists: If I borrow a music CD or an original DVD with some game or a BluRay, does it mean I am pirating???? torrents do EXACTLY the same thing, only at a bigger scale. Wake up people, sharing is NOT pirating.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 11, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Or you could just read reviews and make back ups of your physical disks



though i dont disagree isnt that half the debate as they say you shouldnt even be allowed to do that and imho they should demo all games ,piracy would half as most only try a game before not bothering and demos make that easier



pr0n Inspector said:


> Why would a shameless person pay for something that he can get for free?



Well because if you took entertainment from it and enjoyed it ,thats the right thing to do, and you can get on multiplayer then too


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## pr0n Inspector (Feb 11, 2012)

Why would a shameless person care about what is right or wrong?
Pirate players played online for years. Which is exactly why almost every game killed off LAN and non-centrally regulated servers.


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## Halk (Feb 11, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> One question for the moralists: If I borrow a music CD or an original DVD with some game or a BluRay, does it mean I am pirating???? torrents do EXACTLY the same thing, only at a bigger scale. Wake up people, sharing is NOT pirating.



That very much depends on what you do with it and the license involved. It's not a simple thing, stop trying to score schoolboy debating points.


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## entropy13 (Feb 11, 2012)

Halk said:


> That very much depends on what you do with it and the license involved. It's not a simple thing, stop trying to score schoolboy debating points.



Torrenting itself IS sharing. None of the downloaders/uploaders get money from doing so, ad revenue barely covers operating costs (especially true for private torrent sites; it's donations that keep them afloat).


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## heky (Feb 11, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> And I think a simple extension of an existing product and copyrighting or claiming it as your own is misguided~to some degree...
> Yes I believe people should be rewarded for their work but I think they or some corporation should only have the right to hold onto to that extension for a limited amount of time...
> 
> It's currently 50 years after the life of the original Author/Creator/Artist and 75 years for Corporations.
> ...



Halelujah, finnaly someone who gets it, and actually thinks about it!!!  At least some people still have some common sense in their heads!


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 11, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> One question for the moralists: If I borrow a music CD or an original DVD with some game or a BluRay, does it mean I am pirating???? torrents do EXACTLY the same thing, only at a bigger scale. Wake up people, sharing is NOT pirating.



What about if you let someone borrow a book? Is that file Sharing? 


How about if that person later likes said book so much that he goes out and buys another one by the same author. Did that not just help sells? 

Lets look at the cost of living, health insurance, taxes, minimum wage, etc.. and then lets look at the cost of products used for entertainment purposes. What about other countries that do far worse economically? Like Romania where minimum salary is like $3.00 and now they tell Greece if Romania can do it so can yall. I'm still even amazed people go out and pay $9.50 to see a movie one time at the theaters (Usually only when my friends are up for it). I used to be able to get a student discount and that was when it was 7 bucks to get in. Now they jacked up the prices and got rid of any kind of discount (not sure if babies can get in for free now either). Not to mention how crappy some of the movies are and most of them aren't even original ideas anymore. They just take old ideas that did well and remake them with some new actors and new technology and re-sell it.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 11, 2012)

Always one step ahead


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## catnipkiller (Feb 11, 2012)

Make less shitty games and we wont torrent them^^


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## Platibus (Feb 11, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> What about if you let someone borrow a book? Is that file Sharing?
> 
> 
> How about if that person later likes said book so much that he goes out and buys another one by the same author. Did that not just help sells?


I get what you're saying. In Med-School it's common for students to borrow books from the library and take photostatic copies of them to study. The author isn't getting any part of it, so does that mean students are breaking the law and deserve jail time, as the guys who do the same with entertainment products? Think about it.


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## Deleted member 67555 (Feb 11, 2012)

Platibus said:


> I get what you're saying. In Med-School it's common for students to borrow books from the library and take photostatic copies of them to study. The author isn't getting any part of it, so does that mean students are breaking the law and deserve jail time, as the guys who do the same with entertainment products? Think about it.



Take that a step further and ask:
Did the author of said book do all of the research that went into that text?
-or-
Did they have to rely on the collective knowledge of researchers that came before them?
-and-
If so, did they search them out to pay them for the text or research that they gained from their research?

I'm guessing probably not just as PC game makers don't search out and pay the people that originally wrote the base programming that are used in today's programs....since we all know that all modern programming is an extension of what has came before...


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 11, 2012)

jmcslob said:


> Take that a step further and ask:
> Did the author of said book do all of the research that went into that text?
> -or-
> Did they have to rely on the collective knowledge of researchers that came before them?
> ...



Yeah, like who owns math to begin with? I guess Newton should have copyrighted Calculus and the ancient Greeks should have done the same with Democracy and geometry. 

This country is founded off of taking other peoples work/property. It shouldn't come to us as a surprise when people practice what founded this country. "stick a flag in it, its ours".


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 11, 2012)

catnipkiller said:


> Make less shitty games and we wont torrent them^^



... what i talked about for years


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## F1reFly (Feb 11, 2012)

excuses to justify personal self righteousness...pathetic . Don't make excuses why you pirate and don't speculate on how it does or doesn't effect sales. if you enjoy pirating, then just say you do and are not gonna stop and move on.

i use free and open source software alternatives and rent games on my ps3 or use demo if available before i decide to buy the PC version. The cheaper option always wins because money is what it all boils down to, so i don't really give a crap about what some anonymous behind a username pirates or don't...just don't sink to immaturity by making excuses to justify yourself. 
If a game or app is so s****y, then why would you want to play it? If it costs too much, then just admit your a tightass. i'm an honest tightass, thats why i use freeware and cheap rentals, how doing that or pirating effects sales is pure speculation. You guys don't really care about sales, admit it, you just care about having a product that you enjoy and thats all that matters to consumers, less you own stock....keep it real


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## qubit (Feb 12, 2012)

F1reFly said:


> excuses to justify personal self righteousness...pathetic . Don't make excuses why you pirate and don't speculate on how it does or doesn't effect sales. if you enjoy pirating, then just say you do and are not gonna stop and move on.
> 
> i use free and open source software alternatives and rent games on my ps3 or use demo if available before i decide to buy the PC version. The cheaper option always wins because money is what it all boils down to, so i don't really give a crap about what some anonymous behind a username pirates or don't...just don't sink to immaturity by making excuses to justify yourself.
> If a game or app is so s****y, then why would you want to play it? If it costs too much, then just admit your a tightass. i'm an honest tightass, thats why i use freeware and cheap rentals, how doing that or pirating effects sales is pure speculation. You guys don't really care about sales, admit it, you just care about having a product that you enjoy and thats all that matters to consumers, less you own stock....keep it real


You may not have seen my post here about this. Definitely keep this in mind before attacking 'pirates'.


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## Benetanegia (Feb 12, 2012)

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/22456

^^ This is what every artist and developer should do, but I'm sure the big corporations would find a way to make that illegal. It's so totally clear that people don't want to pay for games right? So much that the people interested in that game paid $1.3 million beforehand, in just one day, and almost "blindly". But we are all pirates. 

I wonder how many game developers are really paid so much by their publishers for making a game. I'm sure not many do, only AAA developers which have probably become as corrupt and greedy as their publishers. I even remember that Activision didn't want to pay $30 million or something like that to Infinity Ward employees that worked on MW2, even though the game made billions in profits. Bastards.

I'm not interested in point and click adventures, but I'm almost tempted to "invest" something in their project. Only to see if it serves as an example and we can ultimately show the door to all those greedy bastards. Down with greedy useless "intermediaries".


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## Yo_Wattup (Feb 12, 2012)

pr0n Inspector said:


> Why would a shameless person care about what is right or wrong?
> Pirate players played online for years. Which is exactly why almost every game killed off LAN and non-centrally regulated servers.



I'm a pirate and there is VERY few pirated games playable online since steam has come along. 



AphexDreamer said:


> What about if you let someone borrow a book? Is that file Sharing?
> 
> 
> How about if that person later likes said book so much that he goes out and buys another one by the same author. Did that not just help sells?
> ...



Please stop comparing physical items to non physical data.



catnipkiller said:


> Make less shitty games and we wont torrent them^^



YES.



F1reFly said:


> excuses to justify personal self righteousness...pathetic . Don't make excuses why you pirate and don't speculate on how it does or doesn't effect sales. if you enjoy pirating, then just say you do and are not gonna stop and move on.
> 
> i use free and open source software alternatives and rent games on my ps3 or use demo if available before i decide to buy the PC version. The cheaper option always wins because money is what it all boils down to, so i don't really give a crap about what some anonymous behind a username pirates or don't...just don't sink to immaturity by making excuses to justify yourself.
> If a game or app is so s****y, then why would you want to play it? If it costs too much, then just admit your a tightass. i'm an honest tightass, thats why i use freeware and cheap rentals, how doing that or pirating effects sales is pure speculation. You guys don't really care about sales, admit it, you just care about having a product that you enjoy and thats all that matters to consumers, less you own stock....keep it real



I am a pirate, I don't necessarily enjoy it, but I admit it.  How are we supposed to know if a game is shitty without playing it dude? Lastly, I'm not a tightass, I'm just poor. I have a shitty job and I have to provide full living costs for me and my fiance, and living costs here, like software, is ridiculous. Next energy bill will be about double because the government just introduced the worlds highest carbon-emission-based tax. So you can be a tightass all you like, but don't go accusing everyone of being a tightass and not giving a crap about giving back to the indistry. Because not everyone's living conditions are the same as yours. I'm not a tightass and I do give back to the gaming/music/movie industry when I feel they deserve it.


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## erocker (Feb 12, 2012)

Pirating isn't going to make game companies make better games. Period. If anything they'll eventually close up shop and find something/someone else to profit off of and/or just make things even more difficult for someone who actually buys their crap. This has been happening for years already and it's not going to change. Games aren't getting any better and they won't be. So, enjoy your "free" crappy games until the internet blows up.


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## Mussels (Feb 12, 2012)

erocker said:


> Pirating isn't going to make game companies make better games. Period. If anything they'll eventually close up shop and find something/someone else to profit off of and/or just make things even more difficult for someone who actually buys their crap. This has been happening for years already and it's not going to change. Games aren't getting any better and they won't be. So, enjoy your "free" crappy games until the internet blows up.



i actually hope some of them do go belly up. so many mass produced shit games in an industry that fails to support them.


look at all the small indi games that are making them companies lots of money now, via steam and other online delivery methods. the old system would never support them or allow them to succeed - without massive profits they'd just get shut down by the big boys.


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## cadaveca (Feb 12, 2012)

Yo_Wattup said:


> How are we supposed to know if a game is shitty without playing it dude?



I haven't not enjoyed any game in years. My STEAM and other similar accounts show that I pay for my games.

I don't play games to have a "good" or "bad" experience...I play games to pass the time. It's not like I ahven't played 1000's of games over the years...there really isn't anything new out there in videogames besides things like PlayStation's Move, and XBOX's Kinect.


Otherwise, it's FPS episode 768, RPG chapter 4003, platformer level 1,000,000...


You're not just paying for the "quality" of a title...you're also paying for the time spent not bored staring at the wall, picking your nose.

There is no justification for "piracy" of intellectual property, period. There is only "I wanted it, I got it without paying, and I don't care".




Mussels said:


> i actually hope some of them do go belly up. so many mass produced shit games in an industry that fails to support them.



I kinda agree, but then, the places making "crappy" games, and giving people jobs. Not everyone has to be "the best" at their job...in fact, that's impossible. I don't really see why it's a big deal. People need work...crappy games is work.


My only issue with there being so many development houses is that the true talent gets spread very thin, which kinda prevents any truly compelling stuff from ever coming out.


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## erocker (Feb 12, 2012)

Mussels said:


> i actually hope some of them do go belly up. so many mass produced shit games in an industry that fails to support them.
> 
> 
> look at all the small indi games that are making them companies lots of money now, via steam and other online delivery methods. the old system would never support them or allow them to succeed - without massive profits they'd just get shut down by the big boys.



Doesn't matter. Small indi games will just eventually be bought out by the "big boys" with an offer they can't refuse. Again, history dictates this.


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## Benetanegia (Feb 12, 2012)

erocker said:


> Pirating isn't going to make game companies make better games. Period. If anything they'll eventually close up shop and find something/someone else to profit off of and/or just make things even more difficult for someone who actually buys their crap. This has been happening for years already and it's not going to change. Games aren't getting any better and they won't be. So, enjoy your "free" crappy games until the internet blows up.



Game developers will not blow up if they are smart. It's the publishers who will and I don't see anything wrong with that. Did you look up the link I posted above? They already have raised 1.6 million and there's 30 days to go yet (now imagine if a game developer - say Crytek, DICE- does the same and accepts donations through the entire development time). You tell me a game cannot be done with that kind of money? Sure you can if no one making it is a greedy bastard. With $1.6 million you can pay 30 50k salaries, more than enough to start making an awesome game for 1 year. Show what you did in that period and much more money would come in. 

After the game is finished they could even release the game for free, because they already got paid, maybe 6-12 months later so as to not alienate the people who did pay for it (they could even ask to the peopl who paid, if and when). That model would work if no one is greedy. The people who really want the game pay for it, the people who make it are paid and their children are safe, and the people who are not really interested but would like to try it get it free after some time. The greedy people that used to work as publishers cry on their $2 million mansion that the bank will soon take it from them. It's a win-win-win-win-win-win scenario.


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## erocker (Feb 12, 2012)

Benetanegia said:


> Game developers will not blow up if they are smart. It's the publishers who will and I don't see anything wrong with that. Did you look up the link I posted above? They already have raised 1.6 million and there's 30 days to go yet (now imagine if a game developer - say Crytek, DICE- does the same and accepts donations through the entire development time). You tell me a game cannot be done with that kind of money? Sure you can if no one making it is a greedy bastard. With $1.6 million you can pay 30 50k salaries, more than enough to start making an awesome game for 1 year. Show what you did in that period and much more money would come in.
> 
> After the game is finished they could even release the game for free, because they already got paid, maybe 6-12 months later so as to not alienate the people who did pay for it (they could even ask to the peopl who paid, if and when). That model would work if no one is greedy. The people who really want the game pay for it, the people who make it are paid and their children are safe, and the people who are not really interested but would like to try it get it free after some time. The greedy people that used to work as publishers cry on their $2 million mansion that the bank will soon take it from them. It's a win-win-win-win-win-win scenario.



Sounds great! Unfortunately, the people who make all of the money off of the current system aren't going to let it go. They will exploit the market in any way possible. Piracy isn't going to do anything to corporate greed other than make it stronger.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 12, 2012)

Benetanegia said:


> Game developers will not blow up if they are smart. It's the publishers who will and I don't see anything wrong with that. Did you look up the link I posted above? They already have raised 1.6 million and there's 30 days to go yet (now imagine if a game developer - say Crytek, DICE- does the same and accepts donations through the entire development time). You tell me a game cannot be done with that kind of money? Sure you can if no one making it is a greedy bastard. With $1.6 million you can pay 30 50k salaries, more than enough to start making an awesome game for 1 year. Show what you did in that period and much more money would come in.
> 
> After the game is finished they could even release the game for free, because they already got paid, maybe 6-12 months later so as to not alienate the people who did pay for it (they could even ask to the peopl who paid, if and when). That model would work if no one is greedy. The people who really want the game pay for it, the people who make it are paid and their children are safe, and the people who are not really interested but would like to try it get it free after some time. The greedy people that used to work as publishers cry on their $2 million mansion that the bank will soon take it from them. It's a win-win-win-win-win-win scenario.



The marketing alone for Battlefield 3 was close to 100 million dollars. The marketing.....alone. Like I said I'm gonna stay out of these threads the best I can but I just wanted to let you know 1.6 million for a AAA title is chump change.


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## Benetanegia (Feb 12, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The marketing alone for Battlefield 3 was close to 100 million dollars. The marketing.....alone. Like I said I'm gonna stay out of these threads the best I can but I just wanted to let you know 1.6 million for a AAA title is chump change.



And who needs that kind of marketing in this day and age again? Who really sold that game and who spent that amount of money on marketing so as to get even higher profits again? NOT the developers for sure. Developers/artists are lucky if they get even 1% of that money.

Look I have worked for this industry, maybe a little indirectly if you wish, and I know what I get paid, I know what the real people who end up making the games are paid (there's lots of outsourcing, when they don't just steal it that is). Hint: we don't see a dime of that money, we are paid the same as any other normal guy.


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 12, 2012)

Benetanegia said:


> And who needs that kind of marketing in this day and age again? Who really sold that game and who spent that amount of money on marketing so as to get even higher profits again? NOT the developers for sure. Developers/artists are lucky if they get even 1% of that money.
> 
> Look I have worked for this industry, maybe a little indirectly if you wish, and I know what I get paid, I know what the real people who end up making the games are paid (there's lots of outsourcing, when they don't just steal it that is). Hint: we don't see a dime of that money, we are paid the same as any other normal guy.



Ive worked in it too and if you don't get paid thats your fault. Who needs 100 million in marketing? People who make games that cost more then that to develop.


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## entropy13 (Feb 12, 2012)

Benetanegia said:


> I wonder how many game developers are really paid so much by their publishers for making a game. I'm sure not many do, only AAA developers which have probably become as corrupt and greedy as their publishers. I even remember that Activision didn't want to pay $30 million or something like that to Infinity Ward employees that worked on MW2, even though the game made billions in profits. Bastards.



Based on what I have read, game developers are essentially held hostage by publishers. They already receive some money before the game's release, but barely have a share in the profits. Similar to the typical setup of recording artists. So they are held hostage in a sense that "if you stop making games for us, you'll hurt your reputation!"



TheMailMan78 said:


> The marketing alone for Battlefield 3 was close to 100 million dollars. The marketing.....alone. Like I said I'm gonna stay out of these threads the best I can but I just wanted to let you know 1.6 million for a AAA title is chump change.



The marketing are all done by the publishers, who usually already paid the game developers and would have almost 99% (almost since it could range from "just" 90% to 99%) of the profit. In this case (of Kickstarter), the developers themselves are being given money. Although recently many developers are merely "subsidiaries" of big publisher companies...



TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive worked in it too and if you don't get paid thats your fault. Who needs 100 million in marketing? People who make games that cost more then that to develop.



People with 200 million who publish games that they expect to earn 300 million each. Well not "expect", they're "supposed to earn", "entitled" to 300 million.


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## Benetanegia (Feb 12, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ive worked in it too and if you don't get paid thats your fault. Who needs 100 million in marketing? People who make games that cost more then that to develop.



No it's not my fault. They pay what they pay and that's it. They have the power, it's not different to any other industry.

Maybe you are one of those lucky ones who get paid far more than they really deserve and that's why you are here defending those bastards.

And they don't "need" as much money to make them. Not at all. They do spend a lot but that's because they just play the same game as publishers. In the past they made far far better games for far less. But that was of course when they were not AAA developers, "entitled" to earn millions, have mansions and drive fast cars.

All you need is a group of 100 people or so for an AAA game. At $50k salaries and 5 years, that's $25M.

They raised $1.6 M *in 2 days and for a point and click adventure game*. You think that an AAA developer wouldn't obtain much much more than that in a few months??


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Feb 12, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> How about if that person later likes said book so much that he goes out and buys another one by the same author. Did that not just help sells?



exactly , thats how all the best authors are dicovered, by peer review not official review, from ya mate dave sayin check this


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## de.das.dude (Feb 12, 2012)

face it. the world works with piracy in it. no one is dying because of piracy.

perhaps if the companies make prices of stuff lower, more people will think of buying it.

IMO companies should emphasize more on selling quantities than selling a few DVDs and putting huge profits on them.


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## RejZoR (Feb 12, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Or you could just read reviews and make back ups of your physical disks....you know like what people used to do BEFORE stealing was viewed as ok because people are cheap and lazy?



So, i'm suppose to make 50 backups of all my originals just for the sake if one gets scratched (and i take almost paranoic care of my CD's and DVD's)? No thanks. You also don't make a copy of your passport or ID card in case if you lose it someday...

As for the reviews, with all the biased nonsense going on in almost every reviewing page or magazine i couldn't care less about them. And demo versions are very hard to come by these days which is weird. They complain over piracy yet they give possible consumers less chances to evaluate where they should put their hard earned money. And for the multimedia content, things aren't the same as for other things. If they review a knife as sharp as hell, it probably is good. There is no other view to it.
But if one says the music CD, game or movie is great or shitz, i might not agree with that.
It has been many times where ppl said that one movie was crap but after i watched it, it felt perfectly good. Same for music CD's. Some said the new album was great, but i thought it was crap. And exactly the same was with games. 9/10 in all the magazines and after i played it i thought it was the worst game ever (namely the all praised Halo which i still think it's a rubbish junk of the last decade). Thank god i haven't bought it...
Also all the game i've pirated as a kid, i've purchased now. There might be few of them that i haven't yet, because i can't get them but i have plans to buy them once they arrive to GoG.
And i plan to re-purchase certain games on GoG just because of the compatibility they provide. I'll buy the same game that i already own, again. How stupid is that right?

Your statement is valid to some degree yes, but mostly i don't agree with it.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 12, 2012)

Yo_Wattup said:


> Please stop comparing physical items to non physical data.



Ummm, ever heard of ebooks? Yeah same applies.


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## Pirate ibn Laden (Feb 12, 2012)

SOPA,PIPA,ACTA....whatever.Most those can do, is to enforce more sophisticated dl systems.Password encrypted torrents,independent magnet link mirrors,closed p2p communities,ect.

I have pirated any and every software-music-movie-OS i have used since 1995.

Totally worth maybe 1M dollars.....so what,go sue me,Microsoft!

On side note....if OS would cost say 25-50 bucks,game 5 bucks and movie/cd/books 1-2 bucks each,i could afford to buy them instead.

Maximum,any RIAA ect bandit organization can get from me,is in my country:free rent,food,money for everyday living for my family,while im doing time in prizon.Not a cent personally from me.And we have nice cosy prisons here,with morning coffee and wieners,every month vacations for visiting families.Really doesnot scare me...

I had 10xtimes harsh conditions doing my time in Red Army during 2 years.If i survived those,i can survive any modern western prison.

Case closed.


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## RoutedScripter (Feb 12, 2012)

The question is how much of that 100million EA marketing push for a title is *effective*. Like a superbowl ad or something, or whatever ... score bribing ... 

They're using unconventional and untraditional marketing methods for gaming, hollywood style, in my opinion it's not targeting the correct market at all, it's targeting the nooby mainstream market that want's to take of COD fanboys which are ..now.. hard to convince to jump ship. 

They would have not lost a lot of players if they cut down the most expensive marketing and stayed loyal to forums and web communities, reddit, general gaming forums and let the game market it self by word and references as it was done in the past, takes longer but costs A LOT LESS, you just need an approach and a technique and EA just blows it because that's what publishers do, they don't really know how to communicate with the fans directly.


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## RejZoR (Feb 12, 2012)

The main issue with music and movies is the delivery method which is still from the 1950's. I can get all my software as freeware. It serves the purpose just fine. For games i have retail shops and also Steam and GoG.

But what about music and movies? There are few rather crappy services out of which 90% of them don't even work in our little country. Paying a DVD price for movies you'll probably watch only once is just stupid and buying audio CD just because you like 3 songs out of 15 is also stupid.

Why can't they make a movie delivery system similar to Steam? Global platform where you could rent or purchase any movie, watch movie trailers, read IMDB link, read user comments and rate the movie. And all this based on categories like action, comedy, cartoons etc). I'm often too lazy to go to the cinema but i'd be very much be willing to use a credit card on a rainy Sunday and watch the movie that i want. If a movie costs ~4 EUR for a cinema ticket, they could sell it for 2 EUR for i don't know 3 time playback on such system. Or a 30% lower price than DVD for unlimited playback. With such prices, bothering with pirated content would be just pointless and i'd spend far more money on it then i do now when i rarely even visit cinema.

Same for music. Give us a global platform where you can really find ANY song you ever wanted. Set a good price and you'll be selling millions of songs. I never really liked CD's because too many musicians made few good songs and you were forced to buy the whole deal even though you wanted just 3 songs from that album. That's why audio CD's never worked for me. I do have few original audio CD's but only from artists where all songs were great and it was worth the purchase. But you rarely see CD with all songs being great these days.

I've spent loads of dosh on games through Steam and GoG just because i could and because it was just a great deal, even though i still haven't yet played half of the games i've bought.
Being unable to do the same for music and movies is entirely THEIR fault and no one elses.
Move your sorry asses and deliver the goods to everyone. Even small countries which are always being neglected. Pack 20 small countries together and you would still get huge income. But no, it's easier to just rant about it and not actually do anything. That's what the entire msuic and movie industry is doing. Every business had to move on and evolve in order to survive. But they expect same old model to work forever for music and movies. Sorry pals but that just won't work.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 12, 2012)

erocker said:


> Pirating isn't going to make game companies make better games. Period. If anything they'll eventually close up shop and find something/someone else to profit off of and/or just make things even more difficult for someone who actually buys their crap. ...



Actually it is. If a company wants to succeed they should take example of games like Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Battlefield, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Batman, SIMS, etc, etc that made hundred of millions of $ in only 1 week after their release, even if they were HEAVILY PIRATED on the nets.  So let's not be hypocritical and face the truth. If a game is good, it will make millions, even if pirated. But if is bad, is the producers fault, NOT of pirates, of not earning enough money for this. Period.


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## Platibus (Feb 12, 2012)

Prima.Vera said:


> If a game is good, it will make millions, even if pirated. But if is bad, is the producers fault, NOT of pirates, of not earning enough money for this.


You got that a little wrong. Mediocrity is selling like hot bread these days, just take a look at the kind of games, music and movies that make the most money. Massive earnings doesn't say anything about the quality of the product, it just says what kind of things people want to buy.


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## heky (Feb 12, 2012)

Platibus said:


> You got that a little wrong. Mediocrity is selling like hot bread these days, just take a look at the kind of games, music and movies that make the most money. Massive earnings doesn't say anything about the quality of the product, it just says what kind of things people want to buy.



True, but his point still stands. If a game is good, it will sell! Doesnt mather how much it is pirated.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 12, 2012)

Yeah good is relative no matter how you look at it. 
If COD can make millions year round releasing the same game and still be a number one pirated game, I don't think anyone is losing here.
Heck I'd reckon some people pirating got it for console and didn't want to fork out another $60 to play it on PC or vice versa. I bet you that's probably why a hefty amount of games are getting pirated so much. You've got three consoles where everybody is mixing and matching and everyone wants to play the game with friends cause lets face it playing with friends is just so much better.


I'm in the situation myself. Got Battlefield 3 on PC (Cause its just how the game should be played IMO) and all my good friends who don't have good PC's got it for PS3 , now all of them are in a clan telling me to get the game on PS3 so I can join them, bragging about their ownage and what not. I'm just like I'm not going to buy the game twice and that they should switch over and buy it for PC instead cause its far superior, then the PC Versus Console debates start and the cycle repeats. 
Sad truth is I'm not playing Battlefield 3 at all due to lack of friends to play it with. So I just might end up being the one to fork out more money to play with them.


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## Benetanegia (Feb 12, 2012)

AphexDreamer said:


> Heck I'd reckon some people pirating got it for console and didn't want to fork out another $60 to play it on PC or vice versa. I bet you that's probably why a hefty amount of games are getting pirated so much. You've got three consoles where everybody is mixing and matching and everyone wants to play the game with friends cause lets face it playing with friends is just so much better.



Yeah, very good point indeed. I've always thought that they sould offer a way to have the games for all platforms. You buy it once and you can then play it wherever you want. What they sell you is a license to use it after all, not the media it comes in.

Valve did it with Portal 2 on PS3 and Steam. With digital distribution is just so easy and cheap even for them...

But like with everything else, that would prevent them from selling 2 or sometims 3 copies of the same thing to the same person, even if that only happens with very few people, and probably hurts their sales more than it helps, but they just cannot understand any other language than quick money and in their minds that's profits lost.

EDIT: The problem with all this nonsense about piracy and whatnot, is that big companies use "protecting their IP" as an excuse, as if their IP is where most of their money comes from, when in reality it's their distribution method what makes them rich, it's the control over the distribution methods what they want to protect, so they try to attack every other distribution method that can hurt them and they use as many weapons as they can.

EDIT2: _Sorry for so many edits._ The bottom line is that the industry will blow up if they continue doing what they are. Developers and artists better find a way in which they can get paid for what they really do: create art. Because in this age distribution of digital art, be it music, movies or games is totally free. Or it would be free if publishers didn't try so hard preventing that from happening.


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## F1reFly (Feb 13, 2012)

qubit said:


> You may not have seen my post here about this. Definitely keep this in mind before attacking 'pirates'.



irrelvant and i didn't attack...i said keep it real. like i said and exactly as i said. when asked if you pirate, you either say yes i do, often or not or no i don't , ever if any. everything else is an excuse. explaining your situation is an excuse.
explaining how corps pirate is a news article, not an excuse for a consumer to use. explaining about your brokedic country allows it or doesn't get such products is yet another. 

its not an attack, just tell it how it really is. either you paid for your entertainment or you didn't. if entertainment has a value to you, then it has value period. no one really cares y u no pay. anyone can list a billion reasons to not pay for something.



Yo_Wattup said:


> Lastly, I'm not a tightass, I'm just poor.



i did'nt ask for excuses. explaining your life to relate as to why you pirate is just another excuse. All you had to do was type. yes, i pirate and am ashamed or whatever you feel.
you have options in life. don't try to act like you don't and blame everything else for your decisions. you could save money, tighten the belt in other areas, invest in yourself, sell something...you have options.


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## qubit (Feb 13, 2012)

F1reFly said:


> irrelvant and i didn't attack...i said keep it real. like i said and exactly as i said. when asked if you pirate, you either say yes i do, often or not or no i don't , ever if any. everything else is an excuse. explaining your situation is an excuse.
> explaining how corps pirate is a news article, not an excuse for a consumer to use. explaining about your brokedic country allows it or doesn't get such products is yet another.
> 
> its not an attack, just tell it how it really is. either you paid for your entertainment or you didn't. if entertainment has a value to you, then it has value period. no one really cares y u no pay. anyone can list a billion reasons to not pay for something.



It's not irrelevant - try reading and understanding. So, the fact that these fat cat copyright holders screw over everyone else (including the artists that make them their money) makes not a jot of difference? Really? I think you need a dose of reality my friend. Or perhaps you work for one of these organizations? Then your position would start to make sense...

It sounds to me, like you see it that _any_ unofficial copying for _any_ reason is piracy, is wrong and it's just _bad!_ What a load of BS. 

Here's another excellent piece from Techdirt: If The RIAA Wants To Talk About Misinformation Campaigns, Let's Start With The RIAA's Misinformation Campaign See how your argument falls apart? You can't see it? Why am I not surprised, lol.


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## erocker (Feb 13, 2012)

qubit said:


> It's not irrelevant - try reading and understanding. So, the fact that these fat cat copyright holders screw over everyone else (including the artists that make them their money) makes not a jot of difference? Really? I think you need a dose of reality my friend. Or perhaps you work for one of these organizations? Then your position would start to make sense...
> 
> .



I completely disagree with you. Just because one person/group/etc. does something "unethical" doesn't give anyone the excuse to do the same. You are just making excuses. Now, I "pirate" things (things unavailable to me from "legit" means) from time to time and I feel it is wrong. I don't care though. My ethics are my own and I don't need excuses to do what I do.

V V = excuse.


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## kid41212003 (Feb 13, 2012)

i pirate quite many things

cuz i'm poor and cheap

and everything previous posts have said


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## qubit (Feb 13, 2012)

erocker said:


> I completely disagree with you. Just because one person/group/etc. does something "unethical" doesn't give anyone the excuse to do the same. You are just making excuses. Now, I "pirate" things (things unavailable to me from "legit" means) from time to time and I feel it is wrong. I don't care though. My ethics are my own and I don't need excuses to do what I do.
> 
> V V = excuse.



Ok, it looks like we will have to disagree.

However, I respect that you have the balls to admit to doing it and how you feel about it. 

Personally, I only copy occasionally and I don't feel bad about doing it.


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## Platibus (Feb 13, 2012)

F1reFly said:


> explaining how corps pirate is a news article, not an excuse for a consumer to use. explaining about your brokedic country allows it or doesn't get such products is yet another.



Most of the music, movies and games I like are practically nowhere to be found or even acquired online in Mexico. The only way for me to get them is to either become an american citizen and live in the US, or to personally visit the country to seek for that stuff in every store I can. My family and I used to go to El Paso on hollidays, but our VISAs expired last year. In an educate manner, please tell me the options I have to get the products I want.


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## AphexDreamer (Feb 13, 2012)

Kids in third world countries want to game to you know.


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## laszlo (Feb 13, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I have never used a torrent in my life. I don't even know how. No joke.



i can't stop myself m8 hope u take it like a joke 

u shall change the "Banstick Dummy"  to "Torrent Dummy"


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## TheMailMan78 (Feb 13, 2012)

laszlo said:


> i can't stop myself m8 hope u take it like a joke
> 
> u shall change the "Banstick Dummy"  to "Torrent Dummy"



lol NP!


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