# Mining Profit



## LFaWolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Hi all, I am not a miner and have no interest in mining. However, I have a curiosity question - at what price point of each coin below does mining become unprofitable for you for a GTX 1070/1070 ti/1080? Not sure if my question makes sense either as I have no idea about mining, but just curious.

Ethereum
Litecoin
Ripple
Any other popular coins?


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## dorsetknob (Feb 3, 2018)

Extremely difficult question to answer
It Depends on the investment made in Equipment and Electrical cost
each "Miner" has a Different ROI (Return on Investment)


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## LFaWolf (Feb 3, 2018)

dorsetknob said:


> Extremely difficult question to answer
> It Depends on the investment made in Equipment and Electrical cost
> each "Miner" has a Different ROI (Return on Investment)


Yes, I know different person -> different electricity cost. Just trying to get an idea from each person. A good miner should know the P&L, right?


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## cdawall (Feb 3, 2018)

A single card isn't typically worth the time. Once you factor power in for the rig to be up a lot of places sit in that unprofitable zone especially with the market being down right now.


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## LFaWolf (Feb 3, 2018)

cdawall said:


> A single card isn't typically worth the time. Once you factor power in for the rig to be up a lot of places sit in that unprofitable zone especially with the market being down right now.


Okay, let's say a typical low power Celeron rig with 5x GTX 1080 pulling 1kw from the socket, or one of your typical rig, could you give an example?


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## cdawall (Feb 3, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Okay, let's say a typical low power Celeron rig with 5x GTX 1080 pulling 1kw from the socket, or one of your typical rig, could you give an example?



My current rigs are 12 cards 4 AMD and 8 nvidia to try and be diverse on coin choice. Profitability is a big game I can have either the AMD or Nvidia cards go unprofitable just to have the coins sitting when the market swings. I base off of whole rig profits not necessarily on a single day.


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## trog100 (Feb 3, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Okay, let's say a typical low power Celeron rig with 5x GTX 1080 pulling 1kw from the socket, or one of your typical rig, could you give an example?



i will have go at that.. i have an 8 x 1070 rig and its pulling 1kw from the wall mining eth.. at the current price of eth which is low at lets say a bit less than a 1000 dollars..

i am seeing 22 dollars per day.. this would be less power usage costs.. not really profitable by my standards but its not running at a loss..

a couple of weeks back with eth up near 1400 i was seeing double that..

currently i am mining about 0.6 ether per month.. the profits are governed by the price which can go up or down.. and what is called the difficulty level.. this goes up and means you get less coin for your trouble with the passage of time.. 

two weeks back i was happy.. now i aint so happy.. how happy i will be in a months time i havnet a clue..

i have tried to answer an almost impossible to answer question.. more fool me.. he he

to build a rig similar to mine would cost at todays retail hardware prices getting on for £6000 or $6000 if in the US..

the hardware costs play a big part in deciding whats profitable and what isnt..

trog


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## R-T-B (Feb 3, 2018)

The thing you need to understand is it isn't really the pricepoint alone that determines profitability, but several factors.  It could go as low as one dollar or lower and as long as diffilculty dropped due to miners dropping out, it would return to profitability.


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## Thefumigator (Feb 3, 2018)

My brother is mining Qubit or something like that. 
He's making like 200 bucks per month with just a pair of videocards or so. He is not paying the electricity bill, but its not to much in his place anyway.


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## Sasqui (Feb 3, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Hi all, I am not a miner and have no interest in mining.



Yes you do


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## LFaWolf (Feb 3, 2018)

Sasqui said:


> Yes you do


Nah, I own shares in Nvidia and AMD. Trying to get a sense when to sell.


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## Sasqui (Feb 3, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Nah, I own shares in Nvidia and AMD. Trying to get a sense when to sell.



Then you have an indirect interest in mining, nothing wrong with that.  They've been the biggest beneficiaries through all of this, AMD just crushed revenue and earnings thanks to cryptocurrencies   If they (crytpo markets) keep dropping, it won't be the case next quarter


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## trog100 (Feb 4, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Nah, I own shares in Nvidia and AMD. Trying to get a sense when to sell.



buy some shares in any company that makes crystal balls... 

but some say the stock market is not the place to be at the moment.. this is irrespective of what happens to the crypto market.. 

trog


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## LFaWolf (Feb 4, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i will have go at that.. i have an 8 x 1070 rig and its pulling 1kw from the wall mining eth.. at the current price of eth which is low at lets say a bit less than a 1000 dollars..
> 
> i am seeing 22 dollars per day.. this would be less power usage costs.. not really profitable by my standards but its not running at a loss..
> 
> ...



This is kind of what I want to know, such as when Ethereum drops below $700, then mining will not be profitable for most people, and start selling their cards, and the used market is flooded with GPUs thus causing the sale of new GPUs to drop. This won't reflect in the financials right away, but I want to keep a close watch and perhaps sell some shares to reduce my risk and holding.



Sasqui said:


> Then you have an indirect interest in mining, nothing wrong with that.  They've been the biggest beneficiaries through all of this, AMD just crushed revenue and earnings thanks to cryptocurrencies   If they (crytpo markets) keep dropping, it won't be the case next quarter


Yes, you can say that. Even though AMD and Nvidia said mining GPUs sales account for only "teens" of their overall GPUs sale, I kind of suspect that, given the current shortage condition as commercial miners bought so many GPUs. AMD and Nvidia want to downplay the significance of mining to minimize the future expectation in case of a mining crash. Both companies want to invest more and engage in the AI and server/cloud space. I suspect mining account perhaps 25% of their sales.



trog100 said:


> buy some shares in any company that makes crystal balls...
> but some say the stock market is not the place to be at the moment.. this is irrespective of what happens to the crypto market..
> trog



I would not buy stocks at the current market condition, not that I have any spare money to begin with, but I bought them long time ago. I would not buy any coins either. Too much risk and just unpredictable.


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## EdInk (Feb 4, 2018)

When one makes less than the cost of electricity, it’ll become unprofitable.


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## silkstone (Feb 4, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> Hi all, I am not a miner and have no interest in mining. However, I have a curiosity question - at what price point of each coin below does mining become unprofitable for you for a GTX 1070/1070 ti/1080? Not sure if my question makes sense either as I have no idea about mining, but just curious.
> 
> Ethereum
> Litecoin
> ...



It all depends on what price the coins are sold for really. A month ago, I was mining at a rate of $800 a month, but I didn't sell much of what I mined, so I didn't make that amount. The rate is now about $400 a month (after electricity). If I sell when the market is as it is now, that is how much I will make. If I wait for the prices to go up, I will make more, if they go down, I will make less. It really all depends on your strategy.


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## Sasqui (Feb 4, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> , I kind of suspect that, given the current shortage condition as commercial miners bought so many GPUs. AMD and Nvidia want to downplay the significance of mining to minimize the future expectation in case of a mining crash.



My guess is you are spot on.  Can't say I've been dissecting AMDs 10K, but not very many companies divulge revenue source details for a variety of reasons.  And since this trend is really volatile, they'd be stupid to up play it as you point out.  As far as investing in either, my take is NVDA is overvalued, AMD too.  How often has AMD posted a +eps?


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## trog100 (Feb 4, 2018)

EdInk said:


> When one makes less than the cost of electricity, it’ll become unprofitable.



only if you dont factor in the cost of hardware purchase or depreciation.. 

trog


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## jaggerwild (Feb 4, 2018)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/technology/bitfinex-bitcoin-price.html

"*Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up"*


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## John Naylor (Feb 4, 2018)

For the great number of machines out there, everything I have been able to gather is that they run barely above break even.    Th enext largest share is the ones getting into it expecting that, once they ugrade, they will be bale to fget in the black.  The significantly profitable  are those that can build massive operations in areas with low electric costs. But those with the power to manipiulate the market are the ones making the real money.


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## Kissamies (Feb 4, 2018)

I think that it's just easier to collect bottles and cans for their refunds.


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## dorsetknob (Feb 4, 2018)

Chloe Price said:


> I think that it's just easier to collect bottles and cans for their refunds.


Cans yeh for their Recycle Value after all they generally just get Dumped in Bins or they litter the streets
and as opposet to ********** recycling is good for the environment and sometimes your bank Balance


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## EdInk (Feb 4, 2018)

trog100 said:


> only if you dont factor in the cost of hardware purchase or depreciation..
> 
> trog



yes, but I think that deviates from what OP wishes to know.

One can argue that no profit is made when the cost of hardware is being paid off. Does that mean one throws-in the towel after a week? I don't think so.

How do you factor in depreciation?


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2018)

trog100 said:


> only if you dont factor in the cost of hardware purchase or depreciation..
> 
> trog



If you're making more than electric consistently, cost of hardware is irrelevant as it will be paid off one way or another.



jaggerwild said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/technology/bitfinex-bitcoin-price.html
> 
> "*Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up"*





Chloe Price said:


> I think that it's just easier to collect bottles and cans for their refunds.



Please quit posting anything negative in any bitcoin related thread, especially when it has nothing to do with the question at hand.



John Naylor said:


> For the great number of machines out there, everything I have been able to gather is that they run barely above break even.



I don't know where you got that idea.  It's quite a bit above break even for me even now, and I only run a two machine rig.  Try at least double electric cost today.  It was 4x not so long ago.


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## Sasqui (Feb 4, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> Please quit posting anything negative in any bitcoin related thread, especially when it has nothing to do with the question at hand.



I assume that was tongue in cheek?  It's totally related... crypto prices directly affect mining profits


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2018)

Sasqui said:


> I assume that was tongue in cheek?  It's totally related... crypto prices directly affect mining profits



As I stated, not really.  Crypto prices are only one factor.  That's like saying the number of dinosaurs which died directly affect oil prices...  it's much more complex than that. 

And just stating a downward trend we all know about doesn't really answer the question, which was precisely WHEN it will become unprofitable, not a price forecast.

The correct answer is it will be unprofitable when it's popular enough to have a high diff at a low pricepoint, AKA probably never.

I mined profitably when litecoin was "only" $20.00.


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## trog100 (Feb 4, 2018)

i think RTB is taking on a  crypto authority stance he maybe should not be taking..he is acting just as if his "oppinion" is fact as opposed to simply his option..

trog


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2018)

trog100 said:


> i think RTB is taking on a  crypto authority stance he maybe should not be taking..he is acting just as if his "oppinion" is fact as opposed to simply his option..
> 
> trog



What part of what I stated could possibly be construed as false?

I mean this is basic math.  It's not really something one can dispute.  Plug into the calculator of your choice.  Crypto could fall to $1.00 per BTC and as long as diff fell accordingly you'd still be making money on an "instant cashout" scenario like we are assuming.

If you are disputing that premise, I suggest you stop subscribing to "Alternative Facts..."

Maybe you disagree with my opinion those posts are OT?  Well, that's fine.  I can see that and that is indeed only my opinion...


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## Sasqui (Feb 4, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> As I stated, not really. Crypto prices are only one factor. That's like saying the number of dinosaurs which died directly affect oil prices... it's much more complex than that.



I don't disagree with part of that.  

Original statement... crypto prices still directly affect mining profits.  If they don't, there's something really wrong with this picture


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2018)

Sasqui said:


> Original statement... crypto prices still directly affect mining profits.  If they don't, there's something really wrong with this picture



I don't know that they do, honestly.

People get interested when price swings high.  Interested people means less crypto for everyone.  Technically, the best money was made before the big boom as of late, back when bitcoin sat around $4000 or so.

I guess from a hodlers perspective, sure...

Man, my head hurts now.

I think you are mistaken by assuming crypto follows the basic economic principles of most commodities.  It doesn't.  It actively tries to adapt to market conditions.  No other commodity does that.

It makes it very hard to explain, and even harder to understand.


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## LFaWolf (Feb 4, 2018)

EdInk said:


> yes, but I think that deviates from what OP wishes to know.
> 
> One can argue that no profit is made when the cost of hardware is being paid off. Does that mean one throws-in the towel after a week? I don't think so.


I think you are right, as my thinking is, say Ethereum drops down to $500, and mining using one's rig it is no longer profitable or losing money if you calculate the electricity cost. I would think one would stop mining until the price is back up, right? It is along the same line of you are losing $10 every time you sell a widget. Sure you can sell a millions widgets, but that just means you are losing $10 millions with your sales. For some businesses it makes sense because you need to grow, increase market share, or what not. But for individual miner, unless your goal is to accumulate the mined coins, you would stop mining. Does it sound right? And what I am looking for is the sort of that price point where this becomes the case for most miners. Of course, I understand the jump in difficulty level and different cost of electricity and the types of coins.


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## R-T-B (Feb 4, 2018)

navair2 said:


> I guess that puts me in the category of a naysayer...so, this post will self-delete in 24 hours, not to worry....( goes back to hardware threads ).



Naysayers don't get modded out provided they stick to the topic.  This post is kind of proving my point though about just having something negative to say...


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## EdInk (Feb 5, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I think you are right, as my thinking is, say Ethereum drops down to $500, and mining using one's rig it is no longer profitable or losing money if you calculate the electricity cost. I would think one would stop mining until the price is back up, right? It is along the same line of you are losing $10 every time you sell a widget. Sure you can sell a millions widgets, but that just means you are losing $10 millions with your sales. For some businesses it makes sense because you need to grow, increase market share, or what not. But for individual miner, unless your goal is to accumulate the mined coins, you would stop mining. Does it sound right? And what I am looking for is the sort of that price point where this becomes the case for most miners. Of course, I understand the jump in difficulty level and different cost of electricity and the types of coins.



Pretty much my thoughts. But like you said some may still mine just to keep the rewards even when elec cost is higher than revenue generated, leave or switch to a different crypto-c.


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## moproblems99 (Feb 7, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I think you are right, as my thinking is, say Ethereum drops down to $500, and mining using one's rig it is no longer profitable or losing money if you calculate the electricity cost. I would think one would stop mining until the price is back up, right? It is along the same line of you are losing $10 every time you sell a widget. Sure you can sell a millions widgets, but that just means you are losing $10 millions with your sales. For some businesses it makes sense because you need to grow, increase market share, or what not. But for individual miner, unless your goal is to accumulate the mined coins, you would stop mining. Does it sound right? And what I am looking for is the sort of that price point where this becomes the case for most miners. Of course, I understand the jump in difficulty level and different cost of electricity and the types of coins.



What you are failing to account for is that as profitability starts to decline, people will drop out of the 'pool' and thus difficulty decreases.  If the price drops with a proportionate amount of difficulty then mining will be just as profitable as the higher price and higher difficulty.  For the average person wanting a gpu, the ideal situation is a tremendous increase in difficulty irrespective of price.


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## LFaWolf (Feb 7, 2018)

moproblems99 said:


> What you are failing to account for is that as profitability starts to decline, people will drop out of the 'pool' and thus difficulty decreases.  If the price drops with a proportionate amount of difficulty then mining will be just as profitable as the higher price and higher difficulty.  For the average person wanting a gpu, the ideal situation is a tremendous increase in difficulty irrespective of price.


No, there will be miners that profit from low electricity cost such as those with massive operation in Russia or Latin America, but smaller miners here in the US will lose out due to higher electricity cost. I don't think difficulty will drop so much that even given the higher electricity cost it will be profitable here in the US.


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## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> I don't think difficulty will drop so much that even given the higher electricity cost it will be profitable here in the US.



If enough drop out, it will.  This isn't even debatable because there is basic math in the crypto algorithms governing it.  Crypto is designed to alter to market conditions by responding to the number of miners inherently.


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## LFaWolf (Feb 7, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> If enough drop out, it will.  This isn't even debatable because there is basic math in the crypto algorithms governing it.  Crypto is designed to alter to market conditions by responding to the number of miners inherently.


You are not reading what I wrote. I am not saying the difficulty level will not drop. I am saying that it will drop to the point where it will be profitable for commercial operations that mine different coins, as they benefit from cheaper electricity cost, whereas smaller miners in the US will not see a profit due to higher electricity cost. With that, the difficulty level will stabilize, if the the price of the coin starts to stabilize.

People need to realize that there are large scale commercial operations mining different types of coins, Bitcoin included.


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## R-T-B (Feb 7, 2018)

LFaWolf said:


> You are not reading what I wrote.



Indeed I wasn't.  Sorry, I blame my phone.  I swear I read something quite different.



LFaWolf said:


> You are not reading what I wrote. I am not saying the difficulty level will not drop. I am saying that it will drop to the point where it will be profitable for commercial operations that mine different coins, as they benefit from cheaper electricity cost, whereas smaller miners in the US will not see a profit due to higher electricity cost. With that, the difficulty level will stabilize, if the the price of the coin starts to stabilize.
> 
> People need to realize that there are large scale commercial operations mining different types of coins, Bitcoin included.



Most of the large scale ops are in China or Asia and the Pacific northwest, but other than that yeah you could be right.


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