# AMD Mantle Driver to Only Benefit Four GPUs Initially



## btarunr (Jan 30, 2014)

Crushed your F5 key on AMD driver download page yet? Unless you have four very specific AMD Radeon GPUs, you can stop it right now. According to DICE, developers of the first game to take advantage of Mantle, the 3D graphics API AMD is introducing with its Catalyst 14.1 beta driver, will give tangible benefits to only four specific GPUs - Radeon R9 290X, R9 290 (non-X), R7 260X, and A-Series "Kaveri" APU-integrated R7 200 series. 

Owners of all other Radeon GPUs, including those based on the Graphics CoreNext (GCN) architecture, such as the recently launched R9 280X and R9 270X, are out of luck, for now. AMD is still ironing out issues with Mantle on those other GCN GPUs. Interestingly, in the same press note, DICE posted performance numbers yielded on an HD 7970, which look promising. AMD is expected to release its Catalyst 14.1 beta driver a little later this week, as it's jousting with some last-minute bug-finds.





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## AlienIsGOD (Jan 30, 2014)

that lame, 4 gpus initially? wow what hype over the last while and the result is 2 desktop and 2 apu's supported


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## phanbuey (Jan 30, 2014)

thats understandable - but soon it will work for all GPU.

This is pretty incredible.


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## de.das.dude (Jan 30, 2014)

mines a 7790 aka 260 so it will work???


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## Razorfang (Jan 30, 2014)

de.das.dude said:


> mines a 7790 aka 260 so it will work???



 No.


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## Prima.Vera (Jan 30, 2014)

Day by day this Mantle smells like vaporware, just like ex-Intel's Larabee...


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## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Jan 30, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Day by day this Mantle smells like vaporware, just like ex-Intel's Larabee...


Why? Its already working. It is right there on the article. It says there is significant boost in BF4.. and is available on the stated GPUs "for now".


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## tokyoduong (Jan 30, 2014)

Wow, are you guys really complaining about free performance?

Even if it's 5%, I'll take it as it is FREE!


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## Maleko (Jan 30, 2014)




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## Deadlyraver (Jan 30, 2014)

It has taken them a pretty long time to fully utilize GCN architecture so this is fairly understandable.


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## john_ (Jan 30, 2014)

All over the internet Nvidia fanboys are crying. Pathetic.
I guess putting PhysX at high settings and laughing at single digit scores with Radeon cards was OK, but Mantle is unfair, paperware, useless, just +5% and more ....crying.


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## dj-electric (Jan 30, 2014)

Boy, that will slow the AMD circlejerk quite a bit.


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## petedread (Jan 30, 2014)

This is still very exciting. 4 GPU's today and maybe another 4 on Monday or somewhen soon (perhaps tomorrow). Even though my rig won't benefit hugely from mantle I'm excited for those who will see 40% performance increases for free. People can now build a good gaming rig for £400 ish less then they could have yesterday. I'm sure some folk just like to beat up on everything and anything, or is it just AMD haters? Of which there seems to be a lot. I have 2x R9 290x, and they if wasn't both such good overclockers I would have two 780ti's now, just to try them out, I'm constantly tempted to take them for a spin. I have no preference of GPU brand. I just like exciting new tech. I don't get why people are down on Mantle.


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## Eroticus (Jan 30, 2014)

Constantine Yevseyev said:


> That's bullshit! Go f*** yourself, AMD!
> God, I hope one day there'll be, like, a black hole in the middle of AMD's main office, and that thing will just suck in all their marketing staff.








It's fucking beta, just wait for full release -.-


any way mantle unless for me ... i think


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## AlienIsGOD (Jan 30, 2014)

well i caused a ruckus by linking this article to AMD gamings FB page https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming/...fset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply

the FB article was posted an hour or 2 ago and the pic i posted was taken 5 minutes ago


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## tokyoduong (Jan 30, 2014)

AlienIsGOD said:


> well i caused a ruckus by linking this article to AMD gamings FB page https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming/...fset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply
> 
> the FB article was posted an hour or 2 ago and the pic i posted was taken 5 minutes ago



Guess it's time for techpowerup to update too.


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2014)

LOL at that Facebook thread.


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## west7 (Jan 30, 2014)

i cant wait anymore i hope AMD will release a full version


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## Frick (Jan 30, 2014)

west7 said:


> i cant wait anymore i hope AMD will release a full version



They will never do that.


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## Eroticus (Jan 30, 2014)

Frick said:


> They will never do that.


It's sucks when low-end "cpu" better then ur  cpu and gpu : ahh ?


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## TheHunter (Jan 30, 2014)

nah false news, AMD re-tweeted it will support all GCN gpus.. That initial info was a bad leak.


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## Slomo4shO (Jan 30, 2014)

Seems this article needs to be updated...


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## TRWOV (Jan 30, 2014)

de.das.dude said:


> mines a 7790 aka 260 so it will work???



I suppose it should, since it's the same GCN 1.1 architecture. Unless AMD specifically blocked the 7790 that is.




TheHunter said:


> nah false news, AMD re-tweeted it will support all GCN gpus.. That initial info was a bad leak.



Yeah, eventually. But at launch only 4 of them, the GCN 1.1 based ones.



> AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta will support ALL  desktop GCN products



Notice how it doesn't specifically say that the Mantle driver will support all GCN cards, just that Cat will.... which isn't a surprise. Cat 14.1B will even support the HD5000 and 6000 series.

It's the same as with the FX AM3+ news from two months ago. AMD's "rebuttal" doesn't address TPU's asertion.


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## FX-GMC (Jan 30, 2014)

TRWOV said:


> I suppose it should, since it's the same GCN 1.1 architecture. Unless AMD specifically blocked the 7790 that is.
> 
> Yeah, eventually. But at launch only 4 of them, the GCN 1.1 based ones.
> 
> ...



I'm lost. "AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta (aka Mantle Driver) will support ALL desktop GCN products."  How does that say that the Mantle driver (14.1 Beta) will not support all desktop GCN cards? Also, what does a Cat have to do with it?

Where are you getting that only 4 will work at launch (post amd update)?  The way I read it is that all are supported but there are still working to fully optimize the ones listed.


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## W1zzard (Jan 30, 2014)

Slomo4shO said:


> Seems this article needs to be updated...



That's the info we got from AMD this morning:


			
				AMD said:
			
		

> Mantle performance for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7000/HD 8000 Series GPUs and AMD Radeon™ R9 280X and R9 270X GPUs will be optimized for BattleField 4™ in future AMD Catalyst™ releases. These products will see limited gains in BattleField 4™ and AMD is currently investigating optimizations for them as they are the next highest priority products.



Yes the driver itself will support all cards of course


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## dj-electric (Jan 30, 2014)

There's AMD's support for Mentle for cards
And there's DICE's support for cards

That's 2 different things.


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## 3lfk1ng (Jan 30, 2014)

It's not going to be vaporware. The trend will likely continue since game developers will want to make game engines that can take full advantage of the Mantle .API for framerate improvements on both the XBOne and the Playstation 4 (both using AMD).


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## Devon68 (Jan 30, 2014)

What are you all complaining about.
Just like *tokyoduong *said ''Even if it's 5%, I'll take it as it is FREE''
Support for the other cards will probably be released in the following days, but as noticed by a forum user, they did use a AMD HD 7970GHz edition card in one of the tested specs so support for the HD 7000 series in pretty much here already.


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## cadaveca (Jan 30, 2014)

Devon68 said:


> What are you all complaining about.
> Just like *tokyoduong *said ''Even if it's 5%, I'll take it as it is FREE''
> Support for the other cards will probably be released in the following days, but as noticed by a forum user, they did use a AMD HD 7970GHz edition card in one of the tested specs so support for the HD 7000 series in pretty much here already.


AMD said they'd have frame-pacing fixes for 7970, etc, over a year ago, but just launched support for Eyefinity(users that actually really needed it) for that in the last driver release, *over a year later*. If you have any faith on AMD being able to deliver anything...well...I expect Mantle to work in 2015 only.


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## Slomo4shO (Jan 30, 2014)

W1zzard said:


> That's the info we got from AMD this morning:
> 
> 
> Yes the driver itself will support all cards of course



Considering that Johan Andersson's blog included benchmarks that utilized a HD 7970, I am unsure where the miscommunication lies but so far there is plenty of contradictions to the suggestion that only the 4 mentioned GPUs will have initial support. 



> *How to enable Mantle*
> In order to use Mantle you will need the following:
> -AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta drivers. AMD will post them here.
> -AMD Radeon GPU with Graphics Core Next
> -64-bit Windows (7, 8 or 8.1)


There is definitely no mention of limitations...


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## Prima.Vera (Jan 30, 2014)

3lfk1ng said:


> It's not going to be vaporware. The trend will likely continue since game developers will want to make game engines that can take full advantage of the Mantle .API for framerate improvements on both the XBOne and the Playstation 4 (both using AMD).


If nVidia is not going to support it, then it will fast fade into oblivion. So far, only 3 or 4 games confirmed this year, and this is to little imo to make Mantle a real competitor to Direct3D 11. And be assured that M$ won't sleep this over. My guess they will take notice from Mantle and probably they will release a new improved Direct3D version 12 or 13th. Will see... 
This is already starting to smell like Glide vs Direct3D. And even that at that time there were like 1 million games using Glide, we still know who the winner was in the end. Even 3dFX on its latest life stages starting to develop more for Direct3D than Glide...


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## AlienIsGOD (Jan 30, 2014)

Slomo4shO said:


> Considering that Johan Andersson's blog included benchmarks that utilized a HD 7970, I am unsure where the miscommunication lies but so far there is plenty of contradictions to the suggestion that only the 4 mentioned GPUs will have initial support.
> 
> 
> There is definitely no mention of limitations...



cause amd asked dice to change their wording from the initial post


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## The Von Matrices (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> AMD said they'd have frame-pacing fixes for 7970, etc, over a year ago, but just launched support for Eyefinity(users that actually really needed it) for that in the last driver release, *over a year later*. If you have any faith on AMD being able to deliver anything...well...I expect Mantle to work in 2015 only.



You're completely mistaken.  _AMD still has yet to release that driver.  _


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## cadaveca (Jan 30, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> You're completely mistaken.  _AMD still has yet to release that driver.  _


13.12 added a huge amount of fixes...sadly, I only have one GPU so cannot test. If it ain't working still..well...I guess it'd be safe to assume that Mantle will get the same treatment.


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## The Von Matrices (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> 13.12 added a huge amount of fixes...sadly, I only have one GPU so cannot test. If it ain't working still..well...I guess it'd be safe to assume that Mantle will get the same treatment.



There is no option for frame pacing in the 13.12 drivers on configurations like mine.  AMD said the fixes would be in January not December or November; of course, I doubted the January schedule back then and it looks like I will probably be right.  I especially love how The Tech Report says in that article:

_"The current release time frame for the driver is "January." AMD doesn't expect additional delays, but it warns that, "as always," its schedule could change."_


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jan 30, 2014)

3lfk1ng said:


> It's not going to be vaporware. The trend will likely continue since game developers will want to make game engines that can take full advantage of the Mantle .API for framerate improvements on both the XBOne and the Playstation 4 (both using AMD).



Mantle is not being used on the consoles. AMD has said this multiple times already. This API is strictly for PC Gaming.


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## INSTG8R (Jan 30, 2014)

I could care less about BF4. I am looking forward to Mantle in Thief. It will also be the first title to use TruAudio(which doesn't apply to me)But still sill be a "full fat" title using AMD's new feature set.


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## john_ (Jan 30, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> If nVidia is not going to support it, then it will fast fade into oblivion. So far, only 3 or 4 games confirmed this year, and this is to little imo to make Mantle a real competitor to Direct3D 11. And be assured that M$ won't sleep this over. My guess they will take notice from Mantle and probably they will release a new improved Direct3D version 12 or 13th. Will see...
> This is already starting to smell like Glide vs Direct3D. And even that at that time there were like 1 million games using Glide, we still know who the winner was in the end. Even 3dFX on its latest life stages starting to develop more for Direct3D than Glide...



What are you talking about?
What Nvidia will do is irrelevant right now. This is something that they can't control without changing the way they do business. Because the only thing they can do is give much higher DirectX performance at the same price points as AMD, and knowing Nvidia they will not do that. They are just too arrogant to ask for less money than the competition for the same or more performance in DirectX.

Also I think you missed about half a dozen articles that say that more than 20 titles are expected to come with Mantle support. Mantle is the easiest way to pass console optimizations to PCs. As long as you have AMD APUs in consoles, Mantle is just far from oblivion.

As for Microsoft. As long as Mantle is not available on Linux, Mantle is a huge positive for Windows against Steam OS and Linux in general. Not to mention another reason for all those XP systems to move on to Windows 8.1. So, until Mantle becomes a problem for Microsoft, which I don't think it is going to happen anyway, it is in their best interest to see it spreading. Don't forget that there is OpenGL. It isn't that Linux doesn't have an API for gaming.

Glide vs Direct3D? There are so many many articles that explain the reasons why Mantle is not another Glide. Google it.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jan 30, 2014)

john_ said:


> What are you talking about?
> What Nvidia will do is irrelevant right now. This is something that they can't control without changing the way they do business. Because the only thing they can do is give much higher DirectX performance at the same price points as AMD, and knowing Nvidia they will not do that. They are just too arrogant to ask for less money than the competition for the same or more performance in DirectX.
> 
> Also I think you missed about half a dozen articles that say that more than 20 titles are expected to come with Mantle support. Mantle is the easiest way to pass console optimizations to PCs. As long as you have AMD APUs in consoles, Mantle is just far from oblivion.
> ...



Hes saying 4 games this year, which is pretty close to true. Those 20 games are not all being released this year.


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## Slomo4shO (Jan 30, 2014)

AlienIsGOD said:


> cause amd asked dice to change their wording from the initial post



Then wouldn't that be proof invalidating this article's claim of mantle being limited to 4 GPUs initially?


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## Prima.Vera (Jan 30, 2014)

Don't worry Johny, your system will still wont be able to use Mantel unless you upgrade your GPU. And agree, there is no point to compare Mantle with Glide. Mantle supports only a couple of cards, Glide supported ALL generations of 3dFX cards. Agree.


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## john_ (Jan 30, 2014)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Hes saying 4 games this year, which is pretty close to true. Those 20 games are not all being released this year.


Really? I see.



Prima.Vera said:


> Don't worry Johny, your system will still wont be able to use Mantel unless you upgrade your GPU. And agree, there is no point to compare Mantle with Glide. Mantle supports only a couple of cards, Glide supported ALL generations of 3dFX cards. Agree.



I am going to my little corner to cry now.....lol


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## cadaveca (Jan 30, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> There is no option for frame pacing in the 13.12 drivers on configurations like mine.  AMD said the fixes would be in January not December or November; of course, I doubted the January schedule back then and it looks like I will probably be right.  I especially love how The Tech Report says in that article:
> 
> _"The current release time frame for the driver is "January." AMD doesn't expect additional delays, but it warns that, "as always," its schedule could change."_


You're talking about the SECOND frame-pacing fix, and I'm talking about the first, last year. Funny how that works, eh?

Anyway, like, who does this help, really? Mantle...? AMD CPU users only? This is more niche marketing, disguised as a big deal.

Unless, of course, developers can use it to make porting titles from the consoles over more efficiently, both in time, and the code produced/used. I mean, I understand hardware, generally speaking, but I fail to see why it is even relevant.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> You're talking about the SECOND frame-pacing fix, and I'm talking about the first, last year. Funny how that works, eh?
> 
> Anyway, like, who does this help, really? Mantle...? AMD CPU users only? This is more niche marketing, disguised as a big deal.
> 
> *Unless, of course, developers can use it to make porting titles from the consoles over more efficiently, both in time, and the code produced/used. I mean, I understand hardware, generally speaking, but I fail to see why it is even relevant*.



Isn't that what Mantle was pretty much made for, yet we aren't seeing it?


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## Yorgos (Jan 30, 2014)

I am more interested about HSA than mantle in this upcoming driver, but mantle is also welcome and I hope it goes well for developers more than gamers.


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## The Von Matrices (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> You're talking about the SECOND frame-pacing fix, and I'm talking about the first, last year. Funny how that works, eh?



You specifically mentioned eyefinity fixes in your OP, but the first fix doesn't include support for eyefinity.


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## NeoXF (Jan 30, 2014)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Hes saying 4 games this year, which is pretty close to true. Those 20 games are not all being released this year.


I think the poin here is *Prima.Vera* is biased and can't muster up a argument or counter-argument without being full of it, no offence. I'm sorry, but I can't take people like him seriously.

Also, what crawled up the guy with the second post's ass and exploded?



MxPhenom 216 said:


> Isn't that what Mantle was pretty much made for, yet we aren't seeing it?


Seeing it in what? There's barely any "next-gen" console games out...
Hell, where I live, PS4 and XBO just barely started appearing in stores... (was on special pre-oders slightly before tho).

Easy cross-porting with Mantle won't start untill the older consoles die out, and the vast majority of games are released only on the new generation (that's like developing for 4 and a half platforms... or more, if you count Wii U... when they can develop for just 2 and a half... the half being PC development and it's reduced costs supposedly due to Mantle).

...well, if it isn't dead 'till then.


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## tokyoduong (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> AMD said they'd have frame-pacing fixes for 7970, etc, over a year ago, but just launched support for Eyefinity(users that actually really needed it) for that in the last driver release, *over a year later*. If you have any faith on AMD being able to deliver anything...well...I expect Mantle to work in 2015 only.



The part 2 of frame pacing will also be in 14.1

What else do you want to complain about Dave?

Prima.Vera,

Mantle support all GCN cards. You must not have actually read the news from AMD. It clearly stated that.


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## Prima.Vera (Jan 30, 2014)

tokyoduong said:


> Prima.Vera,
> 
> Mantle support all GCN cards. You must not have actually read the news from AMD. It clearly stated that.



Oh I read the news, but it seems you do not understand it... 
GCN Cards are the ones from 7000 series and above. How about users with 5000 or 6000 series?! Hmm? Both of those generations support Direct3D 11, but obviously Mantle is to good for them...


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## Aquinus (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> You're talking about the SECOND frame-pacing fix, and I'm talking about the first, last year. Funny how that works, eh?


You mean how the first one seemed to work fine for my 6870s? I think you're getting a little too into the discussion, Dave. 

Everyone is getting angry about something that AMD is releasing for free. You're not being forced to use it, you're not being hindered by it, so what's with all the hostility? It sounds like some people ran out of their anxiolytic or anti-depressant meds or something. Please, people, lets calm down a little bit. AMD has done much worse things than attempt to release Mantle.

At least give AMD the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to improve the experience with their cards hardware.


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## phanbuey (Jan 30, 2014)

Honestly, reading this thread is ridiculous lol.  

No good deed goes unpunished.


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## cadaveca (Jan 30, 2014)

Aquinus said:


> You mean how the first one seemed to work fine for my 6870s? I think you're getting a little too into the discussion, Dave.
> 
> Everyone is getting angry about something that AMD is releasing for free. You're not being forced to use it, you're not being hindered by it, so what's with all the hostility? It sounds like some people ran out of their anxiolytic or anti-depressant meds or something. Please, people, lets calm down a little bit. AMD has done much worse things than attempt to release Mantle.
> 
> At least give AMD the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to improve the experience with their cards hardware.


Hostility?

lulz.

I think you're blowing it out of proportion here. I game with an MSI GAMING GTX780, and have a single ASUS 7970 MATRIX that my memory review rig uses. Both are based on Intel.

So, does Mantle help me?

Personally, I've got not emotion involved in any of this, but I am curious as to what MANTLE actually represents, and how this "free" thing is an actual thing or just a marketing ruse by AMD to get AMD GPU buyer to stop using Intel chips so much ,and buy AMD CPUs, since that's the most common thing.

I mean, I have no problem playing BF4 on a single 7970 now...so this "free" stuff...uh...whut? It gives me more...what? I just simply don't have enough information to understand what AMD is doing, where they are headed, and why. This isn't me as an AMD user complaining...man, Intel sent me three 4960X CPUs. ASUS sent me a RAMPAGE IV BLACK EDITION. G.Skill sent me a 32 GB ram kit. MSI gave me a GTX780. Thermaltake is sending me a PSU. I'm working on getting other hardware. I ain't got nothing to complain about...except my confusion. I sold nearly all of my AMD cards, got most of my money back, too.

I want to know.. because I do reviews. CPU reviews, at times, too. So, I need to know this stuff, but AMD doesn't have a lot of info for me, if any, that provides something I can relate to the end user as a tangible benefit...as a feature that they should look for as reason to buy AMD products. I don't pay for hardware any more...so the standard "blah blah blah complaining fanboy blah blah blah blah" comments don't apply to me, personally. I just state the facts, _as I understand them_, because that's my job.


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## john_ (Jan 30, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> How about users with 5000 or 6000 series?! Hmm? Both of those generations support Direct3D 11, but obviously Mantle is to good for them...



Don't forget the 4000 series too. They should support also Mantle, not to mention DirectX 11. Right?
Both 5000 and 6000 series are old cards. You can't expect everything new to be supported in old cards. And Mantle is NOT DirectX 11. The fact that they support DirectX 11 doesn't mean they are going to support Mantle.


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## cadaveca (Jan 30, 2014)

john_ said:


> Don't forget the 4000 series too. They should support also Mantle, not to mention DirectX 11. Right?


No.

Mantle is an API...a set of commands given to the GPU by the system, in order for the GPU to output a signal. It replaces DirectX, and uses different compression/algorithms etc, so this requires supporting "decoding" hardware on the GPU itself, which is present in GCN designs.

It provides a benefit, by both lowering CPU load, and limiting CPU-GPU communication bandwidth and time, allowing more commands to be sent to the GPU at once, eliminating bottlenecks in performance that are currently in place(on AMD CPUs).


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## The Von Matrices (Jan 30, 2014)

Aquinus said:


> You mean how the first one seemed to work fine for my 6870s? I think you're getting a little too into the discussion, Dave.
> 
> Everyone is getting angry about something that AMD is releasing for free. You're not being forced to use it, you're not being hindered by it, so what's with all the hostility? It sounds like some people ran out of their anxiolytic or anti-depressant meds or something. Please, people, lets calm down a little bit. AMD has done much worse things than attempt to release Mantle.



I agree, releasing Mantle is not a bad thing, but to call it "free" to everyone is a bit questionable.  The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future.  There are a number of people (especially the ones I have read from enthusiasts in these forums who play BF4) who bought AMD cards partially or completely because they expected the large performance improvements that AMD promises with Mantle.  In that case, the new drivers are not "free" because they were an expectation with the purchase .  AMD releasing the drivers is more like repaying a debt to those people.


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## tokyoduong (Jan 30, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Oh I read the news, but it seems you do not understand it...
> GCN Cards are the ones from 7000 series and above. How about users with 5000 or 6000 series?! Hmm? Both of those generations support Direct3D 11, but obviously Mantle is to good for them...



Lol Prima,

You keep moving the goal posts. First, it only support a few cards. Then I proved that AMD supports all GCNs, which is 2 generations BTW. You are still unhappy. Now you want support for ALL cards? LMAO

It's not going to happen! Why?

1. Because 99% of the time those owners of cards 3+ generations old will not have a CPU bottleneck. Mantle would prove useless even if they support it.

2. AMD have publicly stated they are doing minimal to no driver improvement for the 5000 series. I am not sure on the 6000 series but it probably receives the same treatment right now. This is not a surprise as it is very old already. This is like asking NVDA to keep supporting the 9800GTX.

There's something that led me to believe that you are just finding more nonsense to bring up. Let me point this out to you. Mantle is a FREE download/upgrade for everyone except NVDA users. If you are going to complain about FREE, I can't imagine how you will react when you have to pay for a DLC.

The Von Matrices



> The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future


Are you serious? The point of any marketing is to buy their products. NVDA makes you believe that PhysX makes your gaming experience epic and throw out numbers that sounds like every developer is implementing PhysX. Intel marketing makes you believe that you can game just fine on their HD graphics.

As far as marketing goes, I see more marketing for Mantle from EA than AMD. AMD never pushed Mantle promise and my recent purchase of AMD cards did not have "WILL HAVE MANTLE IN THE FUTURE WITH 500% PERFORMANCE PROMISE" anywhere on the box or documentation. 

I have no idea what you and Prima are talking about. These are the worst bashing of a free product I've ever seen. It doesn't affect your life if you don't have AMD cards. It only offer free performance if you own AMD cards. Something you never paid for in the first place when you went out and bought your cards. You guys need to breathe some fresh air.


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## m0nt3 (Jan 30, 2014)

battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/2955063418790832031/1/

Link to Johan's blog about the mantle update with performance figures


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## RyneSmith (Jan 30, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> I agree, releasing Mantle is not a bad thing, but to call it "free" to everyone is a bit questionable.  The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future.  There are a number of people (especially the ones I have read from enthusiasts in these forums who play BF4) who bought AMD cards partially or completely because they expected the large performance improvements that AMD promises with Mantle.  In that case, the new drivers are not "free" because they were an expectation with the purchase .  AMD releasing the drivers is more like repaying a debt to those people.



Couldn't have said it better myself


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## tokyoduong (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> Hostility?
> 
> lulz.
> 
> ...




Dave,

So what you are saying is that Mantle's improvement for you is minimal, probably 2-4% at best because your hardware is already near the max. That's great!

I have an idea for you. Pretend Mantle never existed. Life goes on as usual and you haven't lost anything lol. Seriously, your excuses are getting ridiculous.

AMD is not trying to get people to stop buying Intel chips or NVDA. Did you not read that it works on both Intel and AMD? You get the most benefit if there is a large performance delta between CPU and GPU based on game needs. 

I don't understand why you are so mad? Is it because AMD didn't send you more free stuff or prelaunch info? 

BTW it's great you get free hardware but nobody cares. Everyone gets perks depending on their jobs. I don't rant about my free car, phone, macbook and expense perks for my job.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 30, 2014)

john_ said:


> Don't forget the 4000 series too. They should support also Mantle, not to mention DirectX 11. Right?


Wrong. 4000 series does not support Direct3D 11. I was talking about 5,6,and 7 series because architecture is similar, they only got incremental performance that's it, nothing revolutionary.


tokyoduong said:


> You keep moving the goal posts. First, it only support a few cards. Then I proved that AMD supports all GCNs, which is 2 generations BTW. You are still unhappy. Now you want support for ALL cards? LMAO


No, I'm right on topic. You are not, you are just insulting me. And you are trolling also. I didn't say I want support for ALL the cards, but only for those with similar hardware like 5xxx series and above.


tokyoduong said:


> This is like asking NVDA to keep supporting the 9800GTX.


No, is like nVidia supporting 400 and 500 series on which the 5xxx and 6xxx series from AMD directly compete. And as far as I am aware they are keep providing updates and SLI profiles for those generations, while AMD.... oh well.


tokyoduong said:


> I have no idea what you and Prima are talking about.


Exactly, that's the problem. You have no ideea what are we talking about. )
I'll give you a tip.
Is about AMD's promises and lies on how they were going to fix Frame Pacing, EyeFinity issues, Crossfire profiles and now the Mantle thingy. Thing is why I kinda stop believing their bs propaganda. That's all.


----------



## cadaveca (Jan 30, 2014)

tokyoduong said:


> Dave,
> I don't understand why you are so mad? Is it because AMD didn't send you more free stuff or prelaunch info?






I'm not mad...

Like, I see you trying to say that I'm mad, and how I feel is unjustified, but you're mis-interpreting how I feel.

Why would AMD send me hardware? Did they launch anything I'd be interested in reviewing?


Nope.


Do I do VGA reviews?


Nope?


Does AMD send me CPUs on launch?

Yep.


Do I get pre-release info?

Yep.


lulz.

I already have the hardware required to investigate Mantle. Well, I don't have a 7850K, but I have all the other AMD APUs, and I've told AMD I'm really only interested in Kabini, so that's no big deal. I'm just wondering which approach I should take in my testing, and how end users can do the same, and what realistic expectations I should have.

It's cool...free stuff...but what am I looking at?

I have high-end hardware for myself, but I review any products that show up on my doorstep, and have some A88X motherboards that fit with these new APUs here to review. Should Mantle be something buyers of such a board should take notice in? Why? Specifics....?


----------



## Frick (Jan 30, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> Hostility?
> 
> lulz.
> 
> ...



I don't get it. You want specifics? It's in the OP, go here and you have benchmarks and everything. Will it relate to you with your Intel CPU and Nvidia card, in that rig? Not at the moment at least, iirc there has been talks about Mantle being made open. Will it benefit your Intel CPU and AMD GPU? Why I do believe it will, it might not be massive, but it'll do something (look at test case three for instance). You will download the drivers and check it out though, it's what you do. What do AMD want? You really don't know what they want? They want you to buy their hardware. That's what they do. Even if you're a reviewer (and are above us mere mortals ) they still want you to buy their stuff, or at the very least give it a high score. Where are they headed? Increased market share is obviously the goal. How will they do that? The consoles, the APU's, GPU's and Mantle (I'm not touching the ARM Opterons and stuff because it's not exactly relevant in this discussion, and that is above me, and this probably is above me as well but blow that for a lark or some other cutesy expression), and from where I'm sitting it's looking pretty decent so far. They've got the consoles, the APU's are getting more capable, and they are getting even more capable with Mantle. Better performance for fewer moneys, or more performance for the same moneys.

I really don't understand what the problem is. Except Nvidia obviously, that is where the real questions are, and you are right we don't have enough data there, but ... the future is young, more data will happen.


----------



## BiggieShady (Jan 30, 2014)

Mantle does these things over DX11:

allows developers to push 10 times more draw calls to the GPU with the same CPU
allows developers to blue screen the game, not only crash to desktop
The first one gets me much more dynamic objects on screen without fps drop, the second one worries me.


----------



## TheHunter (Jan 30, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> No, is like nVidia supporting 400 and 500 series on which the 5xxx and 6xxx series from AMD directly compete. And as far as I am aware they are keep providing updates and SLI profiles for those generations, while AMD.... oh well.



btw you know why, those AMD gpus are based on VLIW Architecture, something completely different to GCN. Nvidia 400 series and up are all based on very similar arch kinda like GCN is now, that's why they dont have any problems with it..


@cadaveca

um, its a free boost non the less, what's not to like

Btw dont you want better looking games (CGI gfx) in the future that can utilize extra power and not be bottlencked by dx api..?


----------



## SIGSEGV (Jan 30, 2014)

The Von Matrices said:


> I agree, releasing Mantle is not a bad thing, but to call it "free" to everyone is a bit questionable.  The problem as I see it is that by marketing Mantle prior to release, AMD has encouraged people to buy its products with the expectation of these performance gains in the future.  There are a number of people (especially the ones I have read from enthusiasts in these forums who play BF4) who bought AMD cards partially or completely because they expected the large performance improvements that AMD promises with Mantle.  In that case, the new drivers are not "free" because they were an expectation with the purchase .  AMD releasing the drivers is more like repaying a debt to those people.



what about physx, gay-sync, shadow play ? even gay-sync will cost you more to gain on what we called with "maximum performance" (it's kinda meh.. ). 


it's kinda funny and ironic...


----------



## The Von Matrices (Jan 30, 2014)

SIGSEGV said:


> what about physx, gay-sync, shadow play ? even gay-sync will cost you more to gain on what we called with "maximum performance" (it's kinda meh.. ).
> 
> 
> it's kinda funny and ironic...



There's a fine line that needs to be straddled between generating hype and setting unrealistic expectations.  I neither said nor meant to imply that this is exclusive to AMD.  All companies have had their share of disappointments in products that were highly hyped.  Look at the smartphone market, where intense hype means that manufacturers are expected to come out with revolutionary products every year (and can never meet expectations).


----------



## Steevo (Jan 30, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Wrong. 4000 series does not support Direct3D 11. I was talking about 5,6,and 7 series because architecture is similar, they only got incremental performance that's it, nothing revolutionary.




You are wrong. The architecture is entirely different from the 7XXX series up. Go read more. VLIW5, VLIW4 VS GCN.

VLIW reached the end of its useful life and could not enable HSA without major additional hardware and a higher overhead. GCN is more suited to the current tasks and games.


----------



## Lionheart (Jan 30, 2014)

The comments in this thread gave me a headache! Lmao  damn you ppl are unappreciative whiners , you're getting free performance but yet about 90% of still complain & argue with each other.


----------



## Crap Daddy (Jan 30, 2014)

Lionheart said:


> The comments in this thread gave me a headache! Lmao  damn you ppl are unappreciative whiners , you're getting free performance but yet about 90% of still complain & argue with each other.



I'm not getting any. Do you think I did something wrong to deserve it?


----------



## esrever (Jan 30, 2014)

Crap Daddy said:


> I'm not getting any. Do you think I did something wrong to deserve it?


Yep, you did everything wrong.


----------



## Slomo4shO (Jan 30, 2014)

Crap Daddy said:


> I'm not getting any. Do you think I did something wrong to deserve it?





> System Name: Dusty/Rusty
> Processor: i5-2500K/E8400
> Motherboard: ASRock P67Extreme4/ASRock 4core1600P35
> Cooling: CM Hyper TX3/Intel stock
> ...



Maybe you should contact Nvidia and ask why their 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by their competitor? While you are at it, ask ASRock why your current boards haven't been updated to support USB 3.0...


----------



## Crap Daddy (Jan 30, 2014)

Slomo4shO said:


> Maybe you should contact Nvidia and ask why their 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by their competitor? While you are at it, ask ASRock why your current boards haven't been updated to support USB 3.0...



Well, from I gather neither AMDs very own 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by themselves. You seem to know more about Asrock than they do. As a matter of fact they were so kind to bundle with that particular board an expansion slot with two additional USB 3.0. Two and a half years ago... That was plus what's on board.


----------



## Batou1986 (Jan 30, 2014)

all this rage and no one is mad that the driver is still not out


----------



## FX-GMC (Jan 30, 2014)

Batou1986 said:


> all this rage and no one is mad that the driver is still not out



Seriously?  All these articles and they haven't actually released the driver?


----------



## Slomo4shO (Jan 30, 2014)

Crap Daddy said:


> Well, from I gather neither AMDs very own 3+ year old products don't support a technology produced by themselves.



And this is some sort of revelation? Wasn't it made blatantly apparent that only GCN and latter GPUs would be compatible with the new API? 

Really? The ASRock 4Core1600P35 has USB 3.0 support? It would be news to ASRock...


----------



## Aquinus (Jan 31, 2014)

Slomo4shO said:


> Really? The ASRock 4Core1600P35 has USB 3.0 support? It would be news to ASRock...



I think he is talking about his P67 board... The 775 board is a little older than 3 years old.


----------



## ensabrenoir (Jan 31, 2014)

keep flaming guy!!!! Its cold outside and all the heat from this thread is supplying supplemental warmth .....and much laughter.


----------



## fullinfusion (Jan 31, 2014)

Good to have a new driver to test!


----------



## leeb2013 (Jan 31, 2014)

yet again, it's all BS from AMD.

Specifically targeting Rx-xxx GPUs when the 79xx and 78xx have CGN to trick people in to buying the new ones, after saying Mantle will support all GCN (which it might EVENTUALLY, if ever). Then it gives no performance improvement apart from to their rubbish Ax-xxxx CPUs, where it gives 45% vs 2% for a decent Intel CPU. Finally, the 14.1 driver isn't even available.

To top it all, they forgot to change the text on the 13.12 drivers from 13.11 so BF4 complains you've only got 13.11. Between them and Dice, there's no hope!

I can really see all game developers swooping for this game changing Mantle API


----------



## Mussels (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Oh I read the news, but it seems you do not understand it...
> GCN Cards are the ones from 7000 series and above. How about users with 5000 or 6000 series?! Hmm? Both of those generations support Direct3D 11, but obviously Mantle is to good for them...





umm.... because mantle only works on GCN architecture. 5k and 6k cards are not GCN.


why do you troll these threads with stupid arguments? its insane.


----------



## mab1376 (Jan 31, 2014)

W1zzard said:


> That's the info we got from AMD this morning:
> 
> 
> Yes the driver itself will support all cards of course



Is there any real benefit to this driver for a 280x?

is there any noted performance increases in any other games in DirectX?


----------



## xorbe (Jan 31, 2014)

Batou1986 said:


> all this rage and no one is mad that the driver is still not out



Yeah, I have avoided commenting until there is actually something to discuss other than marketing slides!


----------



## tokyoduong (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Exactly, that's the problem. You have no ideea what are we talking about. )
> I'll give you a tip.
> Is about AMD's promises and lies on how they were going to fix Frame Pacing, EyeFinity issues, Crossfire profiles and now the Mantle thingy. Thing is why I kinda stop believing their bs propaganda. That's all.



lol ok Prima. I'm pretty sure everyone knows who the troll is.

Frame Pacing is getting fixed. It's about to be officially released in a few days with 14.1

Eyefinity issues are being fixed. Crossfire profiles have been continuously fixed in most updates. Mantle is about to be released with 14.1

The thing is that you never had to believe their "propaganda". You can easily buy NVDA cards with their own set of "propaganda". You have choices and both choices are good. I still don't see that any of your whining is valid. AMD did not lie or cheat your pocket. If they did, I'm sure a class action lawsuit is already in place.

The real issue here is that AMD gave us Mantle. It gave us free performance boost without costing us a cent out of our pockets. Yet somehow people like you still complain. This reminds me of the time I gave a homeless guy a meal and some pocket change and he said it wasn't enough.

I have no idea why people are complaining about 4,5,6k series not being supported. It's for GCN only! So naturally that would make 7,8k and the R2xx series being supported. These silly arguments are just annoying. I'm 100% sure that anyone running a 5k series radeon will not be cpu bottlenecked. A freaking i3 will be enough to feed those cards. Enough with this ridiculous argument


----------



## Bjorn_Of_Iceland (Jan 31, 2014)

Mussels said:


> umm.... because mantle only works on GCN architecture. 5k and 6k cards are not GCN.
> 
> 
> why do you troll these threads with stupid arguments? its insane.


I think he won't stop until his precious GPU will run on Mantle.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 31, 2014)

tokyoduong said:


> It gave us free performance boost without costing us a cent out of our pockets.


Who is "us"? Definitely not me included. And again I wasn't complaining, I was just stating facts. I stated that if the Mantle support will be as good as their Crossfire or Frame Pacing is, then AMD users will be again big time disappointed. And everybody seems so butthurt by it, and start to troll and insult me for nothing, in typical fanboy style. That's all.
And no, I won't go and waste a lot of money buying new card, when my 5870CFX is giving average 50-60fps on games like BF4, AC4, FC3, Bioshock, etc. I have better use for those money.



Mussels said:


> umm.... because mantle only works on GCN architecture. 5k and 6k cards are not GCN.
> why do you troll these threads with stupid arguments? its insane.


Then explain why AMD said that Mantle can work on nVidia cards also, if nVidia chooses to do so, hmm? You think nVidia will change its whole GPU architecture just to be able to run Mantle? =)))
Forget the GPU architecture, it's all about the drivers man. 



Bjorn_Of_Iceland said:


> I think he won't stop until his precious GPU will run on Mantle.


I couldn't care less about Mantle, but you obviously care more about my posts than providing one on the topic


----------



## buggalugs (Jan 31, 2014)

Yep, I cant help thinking that if Nvidia devised an API with up to 45% better gaming performance than DX11, they would make people pay for it as a driver/software add on.  Only $49 per year for Nvidia Forceware Extreme!!

  lol, why is there so much whinging. Mantle is happening, its here.


----------



## lemonadesoda (Jan 31, 2014)

buggalugs said:


> Yep, I cant help thinking that if Nvidia devised an API with up to 45% better gaming performance than DX11, they would make people pay for it as a driver/software add on.  Only $49 per year for Nvidia Forceware Extreme!!
> 
> lol, why is there so much whinging. Mantle is happening, its here.



In terms of performance, is Mantle better than DX9 or just DX11? We all know that DX11 is a disaster with too much overhead and complexity in the API. When MS releases DX12 will they finally sort out their bad design/coding?  And will the GPU manufacturers write better GPU drivers? Because with DX12 and better drivers Mantle would have nothing to boast about.  Therefore Mantle is dead, just like all the other temporary performance optimisations, if it isnt the standard, it's an expensive temporary bootstrap.


----------



## RCoon (Jan 31, 2014)

>Walks into thread
>Sees 50 angry naked men beating each other with red and green sticks
>Welcome to TPU AMD threads

Such hostility guys, calm yourselves, debate does not require getting hot and sweaty under the collar and spit shining your new coloured stick.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 31, 2014)

lemonadesoda said:


> We all know that DX11 is a disaster with too much overhead and complexity in the API


DirectX saves developers time, and money ($$ = important!) because it abstracts the hardware.

Are you willing to pay $100 for a game that works on NVIDIA Fermi, NVIDIA Kepler, NVIDIA Maxwell, AMD VLIW, AMD GCN, because the developers had to spend extra time on each hardware architecture? Or will it be alright if the game only works on Maxwell and GCN 1.1?

edit: oh wait I completely forgot Intel IGP and their 5 or 6 different hardware architectures
edit edit: add $10 for OpenGL support to run on Steam Box


----------



## Xzibit (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Who is "us"? Definitely not me included. And again I wasn't complaining, I was just stating facts. I stated that if the Mantle support will be as good as their Crossfire or Frame Pacing is, then AMD users will be again big time disappointed. And everybody seems so butthurt by it, and start to troll and insult me for nothing, in typical fanboy style. That's all.
> And no, I won't go and waste a lot of money buying new card, when my 5870CFX is giving average 50-60fps on games like BF4, AC4, FC3, Bioshock, etc. I have better use for those money.



I don't think AMD R9 290X users are disappointed as much as you think

*Hard|OCP* -XFX R9 290X Double Dissipation Edition CrossFire Review














> When we look at performance versus NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 Ti SLI we also find the XFX R9 290X DD CrossFire coming out on top. This we did not expect. We figured GTX 780 Ti SLI might provide some faster performance in some cases. However, it really didn’t. When playing demanding games at high resolutions and aiming for those high in-game settings R9 290X CrossFire pulled through as the faster solution. When we cranked up AA settings, again R9 290X CrossFire pulled through. * There wasn’t one scenario in our gaming experiences that GTX 780 Ti SLI was superior in gameplay experience to R9 290X CrossFire configuration from XFX*.





> *We only experienced one stuttering situation and that was with NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 Ti SLI in Far Cry 3 at 4K.* This could simply be a bug, but we did experience it, and it did affect the in-game settings we were able to play at. Overall, the smoothness between SLI and CrossFire in every game seems to be on par now. We have no major complaints.



With mantle support the performance gap will widen.


----------



## john_ (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Wrong. 4000 series does not support Direct3D 11. I was talking about 5,6,and 7 series because architecture is similar, they only got incremental performance that's it, nothing revolutionary.





cadaveca said:


> No.
> 
> Mantle is an API...a set of commands given to the GPU by the system, in order for the GPU to output a signal. It replaces DirectX, and uses different compression/algorithms etc, so this requires supporting "decoding" hardware on the GPU itself, which is present in GCN designs.
> 
> It provides a benefit, by both lowering CPU load, and limiting CPU-GPU communication bandwidth and time, allowing more commands to be sent to the GPU at once, eliminating bottlenecks in performance that are currently in place(on AMD CPUs).



Hey... I was kidding about 4000. I wrote that 4000 should also get support for DirectX 11. Wasn't that obvious that I was kidding? ....or had a brain surgery in the past that gone a little wrong!


Anyway my point was, and I mentioned it, that you can't expect an old architecture to be able to support a new API. Especially when this API is low level. Anyone complaining about Mantle not running on more cards than the GCN based cards, was at least over optimistic in the first place. And don't forget that we are talking about AMD here. They where always a little short on software and I guess this period, that they are also with limited cash at hands and bet their heads on HSA and Mantle, they can't come out and declare support for every card they have sold. And I don't think that DirectX 11 has anything to do with Mantle. A 5850 or a 6850 supporting DirectX 11 doesn't make them automatically capable of running Mantle. 

Do you know what is the most important thing we learned here? That the old GCN cards, even that they got new names, 270X and 280X, are OLD enough and different enough to be out of the first list of the cards that get Mantle support. That is a red light for me to buy a 270/X or a 280/X card in the future and I will have to either pay extra and go for 290 or wait for the next series of cards from AMD (avoiding of course any rebrands we might see).


----------



## Assimilator (Jan 31, 2014)

lemonadesoda said:


> We all know that DX11 is a disaster with too much overhead and complexity in the API.



Yes, because Microsoft deliberately set out to create and API that was needlessly slow and needlessly complex.

OR maybe it's because as game detail scales up, the number of pixels and operations on them also increases, thus becoming slower by default, and as a side effect the programming becomes more complex too?

I really wonder which one is most likely.


----------



## john_ (Jan 31, 2014)

Assimilator said:


> Yes, because Microsoft deliberately set out to create and API that was needlessly slow and needlessly complex.
> 
> OR maybe it's because as game detail scales up, the number of pixels and operations on them also increases, thus becoming slower by default, and as a side effect the programming becomes more complex too?
> 
> I really wonder which one is most likely.



Add to that, that, in the last 2 years we haven't really seen a great increase in gpu performance. We have almost the same cards we had 2 years ago.


----------



## H82LUZ73 (Jan 31, 2014)

cadaveca said:


> Hostility?
> 
> lulz.
> 
> ...



mantel works on ALL cpus guys ,Sorry Dave I replied to your post cause you think its just For AMD Cpus. And Gpus like So many of them here .What i would do in your case is test both systems using your 7970 and see,Test pic 2 was using a 7970 and AMD 8350 FX ,Test 1 was the new APU chips.So the pics would be

1-2-3

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/2955063418790832031/1/

*Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*
CPU: Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
GPU: 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
Settings: 1080p ULTRA 4x MSAA
OS: Windows 8 64-bit
Level: South China Sea “Broken Flight Deck”
This single-player scene is heavy on both the CPU and GPU with lots of action going on. Test was done on the highest end Intel CPU on Windows 8, which is the fastest option before Mantle thanks to DirectX 11.1. Still this CPU is not fast enough to keep the 2 290x GPUs fed at 1080p on Ultra settings so we get a significant CPU performance bottleneck which results in major performance improvement when enabling Mantle.
Result: 13.24 ms/f -> = 8.38 ms/f = *58% faster*


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 31, 2014)

john_ said:


> ....or had a brain surgery in the past that gone a little wrong!



Thank for the insult. Now please stop replaying to my posts.
Thank you.


----------



## john_ (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Thank for the insult. Now please stop replaying to my posts.
> Thank you.


I was talking about MYSELF. WTF? I never make comments like that about others. UNDERSTOOD?
Not to mention that I quoted two posts, not just yours.

So thank you for cutting the phrase in half, then misrepresent it and make me look bad.
You are insulting me, not the opposite. So thank you.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Who is "us"? Definitely not me included. And again I wasn't complaining, I was just stating facts. I stated that if the Mantle support will be as good as their Crossfire or Frame Pacing is, then AMD users will be again big time disappointed. And everybody seems so butthurt by it, and start to troll and insult me for nothing, in typical fanboy style. That's all.
> And no, I won't go and waste a lot of money buying new card, when my 5870CFX is giving average 50-60fps on games like BF4, AC4, FC3, Bioshock, etc. I have better use for those money.
> 
> 
> ...


How's about you stop being a tool then , I just ditched five series xfire and had it a long time. 

During that time Amd added morphoAA framepacing ssupport and a fairly reasonable amount of free extra umph and likely more ive forgotten all Free.

What's to compain about your car /tv/ fridge maker /nvidia / intel dont do anything for free.

Bit pissed myself about this possible delay but hey ho that's life get over it tech sometimes bites ass.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 31, 2014)

theoneandonlymrk said:


> How's about you stop being a tool then , I just ditched five series xfire and had it a long time.



Trust me I will, but not anytime soon:
1. Don't have spare money for a new GPU right now
2. I really don't need it right now, since I can play ALL the newest games without any problems with more than 40fps with full details, so what's the point. 

And again, I wasn't complaining, I was just question Mantle's success, knowing it's current limitations, and also knowing from experience the support AMD provided for its other features. That's all.


----------



## Recus (Jan 31, 2014)

As expected Mantle is DAO.

Performance improvement only for high/ultra-end GPUs and CPUs. Not mainstream ones. AMD fanboys saying that only 0.01% buying high/ultra. So HD 7850+Mantle won't be faster than Titan.
Nvidia and Intel don't support it.
Can be done on OpenGL and it's freeeeee.
Mantle supporting games cripple Direct X.


----------



## NeoXF (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Wrong. 4000 series does not support Direct3D 11.


Hint: that was sarcasm, you communication skills aren't the best out there aren't they?

Don't know why I even keep reading your posts, they're litteraly filled BS and a truck-load of bias and the same old same old naggy grind, try a change of pace maybe? Also try not sactifying nVidia every 2 paragraphs and twisting everything little thing about AMD to sound bad or horrible, just the ones that actually are.

Fact: Guys, Mantle will NOT commit genocide upon your family trees.



FX-GMC said:


> Seriously?  All these articles and they haven't actually released the driver?


Apparently they where about to, but pulled it back at the last moment due to a big fault in it. It's in the pipe for within the next 2 days tho.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jan 31, 2014)

NeoXF said:


> Hint: that was sarcasm, you communication skills aren't the best out there aren't they?



For you also: 
Can you please stop quoting and replaying to my posts? Go flame and insult someone else.
Thank you.


----------



## NeoXF (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> For you also:
> Can you please stop quoting and replaying to my posts? Go flame and insult someone else.
> Thank you.


Nope, sorry, sure can't. I live in a free world, unlike the blue/green one you're from.
Again, you can't muster up arguments worth 2 cents and instead get cocky and ultra-defensive, that's just weak. At first I got a little frustrated, single-minded people usually frustrate me, but now I'm actually entertained.

Anyway, people of the thread, we haven't been complaining about something for what? 2-3 posts now? Let's get back on track! What the Hell is up with AMD's red logo, shouldn't it be green like in the old days!? Me as a nVidia hater, can't hate nVidia properly because they the only one using green now!

/endinsanelystupidargumentsagainstbrandxory


----------



## lemonadesoda (Jan 31, 2014)

W1zzard said:


> DirectX saves developers time, and money ($$ = important!) because it abstracts the hardware.
> 
> Are you willing to pay $100 for a game that works on NVIDIA Fermi, NVIDIA Kepler, NVIDIA Maxwell, AMD VLIW, AMD GCN, because the developers had to spend extra time on each hardware architecture? Or will it be alright if the game only works on Maxwell and GCN 1.1?
> 
> ...



Your tone suggests the reader might have missed the point I was making. Mantle is ONLY getting airtime due to DX11 not being as efficient as it could be. The argument against Mantle is the same as the arguments you make against your list above.  Dont forget CUDA, Physx etc.

The point is that the lifespan of Mantle will probably not go beyond DX11.x because of the reasons you listed above. As soon as MS shorts out the alleged inefficiencies in the DX11 API/drivers then we will get better performance. We all remember the comparison of DX9 vs. DX10 and how much faster DX9 was


----------



## tokyoduong (Jan 31, 2014)

lemonadesoda said:


> In terms of performance, is Mantle better than DX9 or just DX11? We all know that DX11 is a disaster with too much overhead and complexity in the API. When MS releases DX12 will they finally sort out their bad design/coding?  And will the GPU manufacturers write better GPU drivers? Because with DX12 and better drivers Mantle would have nothing to boast about.  Therefore Mantle is dead, just like all the other temporary performance optimisations, if it isnt the standard, it's an expensive temporary bootstrap.



As far as I know, Mantle has all DX11.1 features + some of its own for optimizations. Mantle can also be updated and modified just like DX.

I don't think you understand the point of Mantle. It was never about making money. It is mostly meant to boost performance to lower end systems. Basically, it makes more games playable for everyone. This open up potential customers for developers to sell more games to. Almost all PC systems are shipped with integrated graphics now. The APU is becoming mainstream if it hasn't already. This is good news for developers and gamers on a budget.

The other part of Mantle is to push developers and MS to optimize their software. If one day, DX12 or whatever version become close to metal just like Mantle and displace Mantle, then it had done its job. Think about why AMD left Mantle open so that Intel and NVDA and implement it on their GPU. They're not trying to corner the market like NVDA did with PhysX and CUDA. They are also not charging a premium for it so it is nothing more than a resource drain. The only benefit AMD gets is it "might" open up more sales for APU. However, it does not discriminate Intel CPUs so that's why it's just a maybe. The only people benefiting from this are consumers and developers. Developers trade a little more development time for more sales.

I hope Mantle gave the industry a good kick so they force Mantle to disappear. That would be the day. For now, Mantle is a great thing regardless of what brand you prefer because it just sparked up competition and more innovation in the future. I also don't mind free performance even if it's just 1%.

Wizzard



> DirectX saves developers time, and money ($$ = important!) because it abstracts the hardware.
> 
> Are you willing to pay $100 for a game that works on NVIDIA Fermi, NVIDIA Kepler, NVIDIA Maxwell, AMD VLIW, AMD GCN, because the developers had to spend extra time on each hardware architecture? Or will it be alright if the game only works on Maxwell and GCN 1.1?
> 
> ...



Mantle will undoubtedly increase sales for games because minimum and recommended specs will lower. As far as integrated graphics go, there's only Intel and AMD left. Intel's GPUs are still mostly useless for games except for Iris on some games. AMD is the only one in town with a worthwhile on-die iGPU. So in a business perspective, it would make sense to optimize for GCN through Mantle as it is the the most popular low end GPU that can run games.  It is also the only architecture for all 3 consoles which games are made for. Mantle also open up game sales for people with older systems because they only need to upgrade their GPU. 

Nobody is willing to pay $100 for games. In fact, developers know that $60 is the limit and have not raised that for 3 generations. A lot of them are charging lower MSRP now. They realized it is better for them to take a $10-20 hit per game and sell 2X the volume. This was proven by Steam. Since R&D make up most of the expenses for a game, it makes sense that selling more will decrease the marginal cost per unit. In the end, they will actually make more money selling it cheaper. Selling games cheaper like Steam will also decrease the volume of software piracy. 

For example, anyone notice the new Metal Gear Solid for all systems will only MSRP for $40? I'm sure we'll see a lot more like that since devs will get their other $20 through DLC. After gaming become mainstream for China, I am sure games will get cheaper. By staying the same price, it is essentially cheaper because of inflation.

Historically, the cost of R&D have risen higher than the growth of gamers population. With China being in the mix legally, this will dramatically change the R&D expense to sales ratio. Hopefully this will mean we get complete games instead of $60 games + $50 DLC.


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## Prima.Vera (Jan 31, 2014)

TheHunter said:


> Let NV make a proper mantle driver - its a open API not bound to GCN, end of story.



Is not an open API. The guys here were screaming that is ONLY for GCN cards. And AMD confirm it by releasing (or will release) drivers only for 7xxx and 2xx generations.
This is why I was bitching about. If it would have been open, you could have use Mantle on nVidia or even Intel chips. But as those guys flamed me, is not only about the drivers, right? 
They need also hardware support.


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## NeoXF (Jan 31, 2014)

lemonadesoda said:


> We all remember the comparison of DX9 vs. DX10 and how much faster DX9 was


And then came Far Cry 2 wich actually ran faster on D3D10 than on D3D9... Oh wait, it turned out it did so because the "Ultra" preset on D3D10 was actually worse looking than than "Very High" one in D3D9.

If anything I'd like Mantle to succed just for the bitchslap factor to Micro$oft.


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## john_ (Jan 31, 2014)

And then came DX10.1 and was faster in a few occasions than DX10 and Nvidia said "No, running faster on Radeons must be a bug. Remove it or else..."


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## NeoXF (Jan 31, 2014)

john_ said:


> And then came DX10.1 and was faster in a few occasions than DX10 and Nvidia said "No, running faster on Radeons must be a bug. Remove it or else..."


Haha, yes, how could one forget that...
Well, it helps if you don't have a blind green eye...


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## tokyoduong (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Is not an open API. The guys here were screaming that is ONLY for GCN cards. And AMD confirm it by releasing (or will release) drivers only for 7xxx and 2xx generations.
> This is why I was bitching about. If it would have been open, you could have use Mantle on nVidia or even Intel chips. But as those guys flamed me, is not only about the drivers, right?
> They need also hardware support.



It is an open API. AMD isn't going to write drivers for NVDA's cards or any other architecture. That's insane. It's up to the other guys to write their own drivers but the API is open and allows them to do it.

Should NVDA write CUDA or PhysX drivers for AMD?

Mantle can work with Radens 5 and 6k series. They're not going to write drivers for it though because less than 1% wold benefit from it and it would take more work than GCN.

I know you're not that dumb to think that different hardware don't need different drivers. You're clearly pulling people's strings here or your definition of "open" is different than everyone else's.


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## HTC (Jan 31, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> *Is not an open API. The guys here were screaming that is ONLY for GCN cards. And AMD confirm it by releasing (or will release) drivers only for 7xxx and 2xx generations.*
> This is why I was bitching about. If it would have been open, you could have use Mantle on nVidia or even Intel chips. But as those guys flamed me, is not only about the drivers, right?
> They need also hardware support.



*I think you haven't understood that it IS open.*


Think of two people from different nationalities that don't speak each others language: what CGN does is a "real time" interpreter so the two dudes can yap all they want and understand each other, even though they speak different languages.

Both other AMD non-CGN cards as well as NVDA can do it too BUT, since they don't have the interpreter (CGN hardware), *they'll need a software version of it for it to work which will obviously have a performance hit. This is what will give AMD an edge over NVDA.*

Obviously, AMD won't make non-CGN cards use Mantle UNTIL the CGN cards can all use it and then they can make their own software interpreter for the non-CGN cards, but it won't be as good as the hardware CGN one.

AMD isn't in any way restricting Mantle and NVDA can make their own software interpreter but, like non-CGN AMD cards, it will have the same problem: it's software instead of hardware.


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## Assimilator (Jan 31, 2014)

tokyoduong said:


> If one day, DX12 or whatever version become close to metal...



That isn't going to happen, unless the DirectX team has a collective aneurysm. Going closer to the metal is what software is moving AWAY from, and rightly - more abstraction means easier development, less writing your own libraries, less bugs, et cetera. It does mean that more performant hardware is needed, and that's fine because software drives hardware to improve, which then drives software to improve, which keeps both industries ticking over.

Furthermore, in much the same way that most new apps are still single-threaded despite multi-core CPUs being around for a decade, most graphics engines don't take advantage of the parallelism inherent in modern GPUs and DX11. Mantle can utilise this parallelism, but at the cost of (re)writing your entire graphics engine; I'd daresay that with enough time and effort a lot more performance could be pulled out of DX11 (remember that most, if not all "DirectX 11" engines are DX9 or DX10 engines with DX11 features like tessellation bolted on). In fact, AFAIK the only graphics engine that is pure DX11 from the ground up is the one used by Futuremark for 3DMark, and that's not used by any games so it's not really useful as a comparison point.

At the end of the day, Mantle is an evolutionary dead end in terms of graphics. Instead of throwing money at gimmicks like Mantle, AMD should be investing in its driver team.


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## the54thvoid (Jan 31, 2014)

What a horrendous thread. 

Anyone for tea and scones down at the village green?


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## RCoon (Jan 31, 2014)

the54thvoid said:


> What a horrendous thread.
> 
> Anyone for tea and scones down at the village green?


 
I do love me a bit o' scones. Cornish cream and strawberry conserve? Yummy.
I did tell them there was no need to pull out their red and green beat sticks, but they never listen. Reminds me of the school I used to work at, with _those_ kids from _that_ demographic.


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## ensabrenoir (Jan 31, 2014)

Amd prob discovered mantle works better with Intel's cpus


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## semantics (Feb 1, 2014)

lemonadesoda said:


> Your tone suggests the reader might have missed the point I was making. Mantle is ONLY getting airtime due to DX11 not being as efficient as it could be. The argument against Mantle is the same as the arguments you make against your list above.  Dont forget CUDA, Physx etc.
> 
> The point is that the lifespan of Mantle will probably not go beyond DX11.x because of the reasons you listed above. As soon as MS shorts out the alleged inefficiencies in the DX11 API/drivers then we will get better performance. We all remember the comparison of DX9 vs. DX10 and how much faster DX9 was


What do you expect, low vs high level api's. Saying comparison between DX10 and DX9 is silly it's like the argument of DX11 and DX9 people see lower fps and assume worse performance. When in fact features not available in DX9 have been turned on and that's the cause of the slow down. If developers just ported the game over to DX11 and not use extra features, with the lower overhead, same as DX10. There is a significant drop in overhead from DX9 to DX10, what do developers do, well they shove more shit into the game then so any performance gains are lost.

There were also issues with DX10 and developers having to learn the api. Microsoft doesn't dick around they don't keep legacy code around for ages like opengl, they scraped everything and start over so developers used to working with DX9 suddenly found themselves lost in a new api with different ways of doing things well. DX11 is pretty much DX10 with a bunch of extra features tacked on, it's a ton closer to dx10 than it in to dx9. Why is it received better? Because developers had time to learn it and bitch about dx10 it's essentially the same re branding microsoft did with vista -> 7. Give it a service pack update call it a new name and people will praise you.

I also don't understand your point of a cost of development for rewriting the game engine in a new API equates to nvidia giving developers a SDK with features that are 95% done all you have to do is read a few documents and lazy copy pasta it into your game to get the features. You're comparing something that would cost a company 100k to something that would cost a company maybe 10k, plus all the support that games with including mantel. It's a recurring cost when you split your game engine into two parts, everytime you change something in one it has to be carried over to the other. Else you're porting games like valve who just gets 95% there and says' fuck it people wont notice a few missing lighting features or w.e


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## Steevo (Feb 1, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Then explain why AMD said that Mantle can work on nVidia cards also, if nVidia chooses to do so, hmm? You think nVidia will change its whole GPU architecture just to be able to run Mantle? =)))
> Forget the GPU architecture, it's all about the drivers man.


It can work on Nvidia cards as they have the same type of architecture with their newer chips, if you bothered actually reading and comprehending anything you would understand this. It's not about drivers, its about how a GPU with a specific "core" or "shader" can perform work and be programmed.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 1, 2014)

Steevo said:


> It can work on Nvidia cards as they have the same type of architecture with their newer chips.



Now that's some genuine trolling. Nvidia cards have the same type of architecture as AMD's.... 
To be honest you don't see this type of bs everyday. =)))


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## Dent1 (Feb 1, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Now that's some genuine trolling. Nvidia cards have the same type of architecture as AMD's....
> To be honest you don't see this type of bs everyday. =)))



It's irrelevant really, the point he was trying to make is NVidia can write their own Mantle drivers.  They are open to do so.

Your quick to point out when someone else is wrong, but when you're wrong you ignore it and deflect attention elsewhere.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 1, 2014)

Dent1 said:


> It's irrelevant really, the point he was trying to make is NVidia can write their own Mantle drivers.  They are open to do so.


Exactly was I was saying. Exactly. I was only trying to unmask the AMD's bs that their Mantle only works for GCN cards, because of architecture difference and stuff. What did I do wrong? )


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## Dent1 (Feb 1, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Exactly was I was saying. Exactly. I was only trying to unmask the AMD's bs that their Mantle only works for GCN cards, because of architecture difference and stuff. What did I do wrong? )



I think you're focusing on the silly comments too much and ignoring the enriching ones.


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## Prima.Vera (Feb 1, 2014)

Dent1 said:


> I think you're focusing on the silly comments too much and ignoring the enriching ones.


As long as they are rude and contains personal attacks and insults, they have no value.


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## pr0n Inspector (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't think you people understand what open actually means. Mantle is controlled by a single vendor, tailored for only one architecture from one vendor and currently works on only one architecture from one vendor. AMD simply shows you how they did it instead of keeping it behind doors. That's not how open projects work. OpenGL is open because every member have a say in the path it takes, Khronos doesn't dream up a new spec behind closed doors, dump it and expect everyone to conform to its requirements.


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## sweet (Feb 2, 2014)

pr0n Inspector said:


> I don't think you people understand what open actually means. Mantle is controlled by a single vendor, tailored for only one architecture from one vendor and currently works on only one architecture from one vendor. AMD simply shows you how they did it instead of keeping it behind doors. That's not how open projects work. OpenGL is open because every member have a say in the path it takes, Khronos doesn't dream up a new spec behind closed doors, dump it and expect everyone to conform to its requirements.


But you forgot that the architecture here is used in next gen consoles. Read how Mantle work and you will see how easy to port a game from Xbox1, PS4 to PC using Mantle, thanks to the similar in the architecture. That's where the profit come from. FYI, porting games from consoles to DirectX has been a nightmare for every programmers.

By the way, this article is totally mislead as DICE confirmed that their driver works on every GCN cards. I don't know why TPU had not edited or taken it down. I smelled some bias here


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## TRWOV (Feb 2, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Now that's some genuine trolling. Nvidia cards have the same type of architecture as AMD's....
> To be honest you don't see this type of bs everyday. =)))



I think he means that both use programmable shaders, like every DX10> compliant card out there.

About Mantle not being on VLIW5 and VLIW4, I'll hazard a guess and say that the improvemente would be minimal if anything. I suppose that Mantle exposes the complete compute core (like a mini HSA or something) and VLIW5/4 performance in compute was very poor (a 7770 matches a 6970 in that regard for example). Of course, without internal knoledge of how the driver works everything is speculation BUT GCN was build for compute from the ground up. The fact that AMD choose to only support Mantle on GCN could be a hint of how it works.

Given how stubborn AMD is sometimes, I wouldn't write off the possibility of them writing a VLIW driver just as a proof of concept but I wouldn't expect a commercially available driver (for all we know, they could have). Heck, if IP wasn't a concern I could see them developing a Kepler driver for the same reason.


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## Nihilus (Feb 2, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Day by day this Mantle smells like vaporware, just like ex-Intel's Larabee...


 
Vapor ware that magically gains 10% performance.  I am ok with that.


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## semantics (Feb 2, 2014)

sweet said:


> But you forgot that the architecture here is used in next gen consoles. Read how Mantle work and you will see how easy to port a game from Xbox1, PS4 to PC using Mantle, thanks to the similar in the architecture. That's where the profit come from. FYI, porting games from consoles to DirectX has been a nightmare for every programmers.
> 
> By the way, this article is totally mislead as DICE confirmed that their driver works on every GCN cards. I don't know why TPU had not edited or taken it down. I smelled some bias here


Porting to directX isn't a nightmare if you're agnostic about your coding what becomes a nightmare is porting it to windows not writing it in directX it's quarks about the underlaying os that makes porting a pain. After all most games are written in something like C then ported over to work for the console.


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## pr0n Inspector (Feb 3, 2014)

sweet said:


> But you forgot that the architecture here is used in next gen consoles. Read how Mantle work and you will see how easy to port a game from Xbox1, PS4 to PC using Mantle, thanks to the similar in the architecture. That's where the profit come from. FYI, porting games from consoles to DirectX has been a nightmare for every programmers.
> 
> By the way, this article is totally mislead as DICE confirmed that their driver works on every GCN cards. I don't know why TPU had not edited or taken it down. I smelled some bias here



You missed the entire point of my post. None of what you said make it an open project. The "profit"  you speak of can only be built on the bodies of vendor-agnostic solutions.

This is AMD leveraging their console-peasants-given power to sway the future of our glorious PC gaming master race in their favor, nothing more.  /s


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## Steevo (Feb 3, 2014)

Nihilus said:


> Vapor ware that magically gains 10% performance.  I am ok with that.


Hows that vaporware now? Any more snarky comments about the 12-200% increase?


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## Nihilus (Feb 3, 2014)

The sarcasm is lost with you


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## leeb2013 (Feb 3, 2014)

Prima.Vera said:


> Day by day this Mantle smells like vaporware, just like ex-Intel's Larabee...



I totally agree;

*AMD meeting minutes*....

*Issue:*
we're in deep do do, there's no way we can keep up with Intel CPUs and Nvidia GPUs. If we don't come up with something, ANYTHING we're gone, our finances are a mess!!

*Solution:*
ok, we're going to have to hit this big time. Lets get into bed with the developer of the biggest game this year, BF4, and influence its design and coding. Let's hype it up so much that people aren't surprised when it's so CPU resource heavy.

.....but how's that going to help with our weak CPUs?

We'll it's not going to be actually CPU heavy, we'll artificially make it so. It's risky because people might wonder why it runs well on a crappy XB1 APU but needs 80% of an o/c'd I5-3570k, but I think we can get away with it. We'll say PCs aren't optimised, but consoles are, no-one will question it.

.....but I still don't get it.

We'll then launch this software add-on called Mantle and hype it up to be the coming of the next messiah. This add-on will detect what type of CPU and GPU the user has and remove the artificial limitation for all those with weak AMD CPU's/APU and our later R9-xxx GPUs (we might help the tight-ass 7xxx owners later, but for now we'll tell them it's for all GCN cards to make people consider switching to AMD from Nvidia, that's how we'll also claw back some GPU sales, then we'll say it just supports R9-xxx GPUs with 7xxx support coming later, we'll drag it out as long as possible, until our next big sponsored game comes along).

As BF4 is the biggest and most talked about game, along with the game changing Mantle, everyone will think that you no longer need a decent Intel CPU and will buy our cheap and crappy APUs and couple them with our new R9-xxx's. We'll hype it up so much and drag it out with various excuses for delays, optimisation, beta tests, support etc that no-one will become suspicious before we collude with the next game developer to do the same again.

It's win, win. We increase the sales of our CPUs and GPUs, whilst implementing nothing but a software switch in Mantle. Genius!!!


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## Nihilus (Feb 3, 2014)

It must be lonely in that basement.


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## sweet (Feb 5, 2014)

leeb2013 said:


> I totally agree;
> 
> *...*
> 
> ...



I wonder whether you have played GTA 4 on PC, one of the worst porting games. Consoles and PC are different system, and without something like Mantle, of course there  are different levels of optimization. Read about Mantle again, plz. And also, you should have some research about multiplayer games and learn why BF4 multiplayer mode is CPU heavy.


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## Fx (Feb 8, 2014)

AlienIsGOD said:


> that lame, 4 gpus initially? wow what hype over the last while and the result is 2 desktop and 2 apu's supported



IKR, because all technology should always be released without bugs, extra performance than promised, and ahead of schedule. Technology is easy to create, improve and evolve.


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## NeoXF (Feb 9, 2014)

sweet said:


> I wonder whether you have played GTA 4 on PC, one of the worst porting games. Consoles and PC are different system, and without something like Mantle, of course there  are different levels of optimization. Read about Mantle again, plz. And also, you should have some research about multiplayer games and learn why BF4 multiplayer mode is CPU heavy.


Yeah, but Rockstar did good with Max Mayne 3 (same engine, most not a port, specific PC-enhancements done, actual PC code). So fingers crossed GTA V walks in it's path.

What are people discussing here anyway? Mantle is far from an official release and doesn't have it's documentation layed out yet. AMD said a Q3 2014 for it's "1.0"/golden release. And honestly, BF4 seems like a rushed/at-the-last-moment release, we shall see how it performs with other Frostbite 3 games, as well as games built from the ground-up for it in the more distant future. So far tho, even with AMD's ocasionally lackluster drivers, it's pretty impressive and I support it 100% (especially if/when it will goes open).

This thread only serves to confuse people even more with it's misleading BS rumour title.


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