# Which is better?



## cheesy999 (Nov 20, 2011)

as the title says, which one of these is better?

This one
http://www.bestbuy.co.uk/product/10...3_1321822519_7776c6730f9370196382bf25bb1180e0

Or this one
http://www.richersounds.com/product/speaker-packages/onkyo/hts5405/onky-hts5405

EDIT:I'm mainly thinking about the speakers, i know most of the differences in the amps


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 20, 2011)

The speakers look the same in both setups tbh, go for the one with the best amp.


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## cheesy999 (Nov 20, 2011)

tigger said:


> The speakers look the same in both setups tbh, go for the one with the best amp.



so that would be the 509?


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes, has better speaker connectors, don't like spring clips.

I'm using similar sized sony 140w speakers, and my system rocks


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## Dent1 (Nov 20, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> as the title says, which one of these is better?
> 
> This one
> http://www.bestbuy.co.uk/product/10...3_1321822519_7776c6730f9370196382bf25bb1180e0
> ...



The amp is good, but the speakers are AWFUL in comparsion to even budget bookshelf speakers.

Word of advice from a someone thats been there - Buy the amp and the speakers seperately.

Edit:

Get two pairs of these:

YAMAHA NSBP200PB  - £45

or 

WHARFEDALE DIAMOND 9.0 - £39.99

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3432-yamaha-nsbp200pb-speakers-pair.aspx
http://www.richersounds.com/product/bookshelf-speakers/wharfedale/diamond-9.0/whar-9.0-blk


They are one of the better speakers you'll find under £50. They are not great but he quality would be much better than the HTIB speakers you linked.  You can find your own center speaker + sub!


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## cheesy999 (Nov 20, 2011)

tigger said:


> Yes, has better speaker connectors, don't like spring clips.
> 
> I'm using similar sized sony 140w speakers, and my system rocks



which Sony's?



Dent1 said:


> The amp is good, but the speakers are AWFUL in comparsion to even budget bookshelf speakers.
> 
> Word of advise from a someone thats been there - Buy the amp and the speakers seperately.



I'm on a low budget so at the moment buying a set seems to be a efficient options 

besides that amp is worth £300 by itself so I can always upgrade the speakers when I have a larger budget , I've also heard some onkyo speakers and they at Least sound  much better then my TVs speakers.

if you can suggest a better set of separates I will consider them

edit:just to clarify this Is already at the limits of what I could afford, so if I spend more on speakers I will have to get a lower end amp to compensate


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## Dent1 (Nov 20, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> I've also heard some onkyo speakers and they at Least sound  much better then my TVs speakers.
> 
> if you can suggest a better set of separates I will consider them



Onkyo generally make good bookshelf speakers, but HTIB is usually an exception where the quality is often neglected across the board with most leading manufacturers. In both sound quality and build quality.


It doesn't have to be expensive. I let you into a secret, sometimes finding your own parts is cheaper than HTIB!

Get the ONKYO TXSR309, I have the exact amp - It's one of the cheapest amp you'll find with the HD formats (DTS Masters HD and Dolby Digital True HD Support). It's Only £179.

ONKYO TXSR309 £179
Pair of Yamaha NSBP200PB x2 (front + rears) £90
YAMAHA NS-C125 Center speaker £51

That alone will shit on any HTIB. Cheaper too. Only £320. 

The subwoofer you can add later as bookshelf speakers tend to have quite good low frequency response already. Check Ebay you'll find a used subwoofer for £40-60 easily.


http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/onkyo/txsr309/onky-txsr309-blk
http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3432-yamaha-nsbp200pb-speakers-pair.aspx
http://www.overstock.com/Electronic...annel-Speaker/5108553/product.html?cid=133635


Edit: 

Found  subwoofers:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YAMAHA-SW...omeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item1c206c8eb9

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400257794...id=m570.l2736&_nkw=400257794590&_fvi=1&_rdc=1

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-ac...omeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item336d5a95b1

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAMSUNG-P...omeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item3cbe17a549


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm using a full set of these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-Rear-Speaker-SS-TS92-DAV-HDX285-DAV-HDX589W-/260897897458?pt=Home_Theater_in_a_Box&hash=item3cbeb9fbf2#ht_809wt_1139

I was using a set of active studio monitors, and believe me I am very particular about my sound setup, and these little speakers are fine, with the sub. You don't need whacking great speakers no more, I used to have but you can get pretty good sound quality form small ones and a sub, look at the bose acoustimass setups for instance.

Buy one of the ones you originally linked imo, but it is up to you.




Dent1 said:


> Onkyo generally make good bookshelf speakers, but HTIB is usually an exception where the quality is often neglected across the board with most leading manufacturers. In both sound quality and build quality.
> 
> 
> It doesn't have to be expensive. I let you into a secret, sometimes finding your own parts is cheaper than HTIB!
> ...



Don't forget to factor in speaker brackets into that, specially for the rear ones at least.

i don't use my active studio monitors no more as the quality from my current setup sounds fine, and with the sub it does not matter about the satellites ability to handle bass.

Its up to you Cheesy,


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## BumbleBee (Nov 20, 2011)

the Onkyo TX-SR309 doesn't have a lot of driving power and no Audyssey.


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## Dent1 (Nov 20, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> the Onkyo TX-SR309 doesn't have a lot of driving power and no Audyssey.



Not really a big deal. We are talking low end to low-mid range components here. The type of budget we are working the Onkyo TX-SR309 is the best you'll get under £200. 

Those HTIB speakers just make me cringe, it's a justified compromise lol


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## BumbleBee (Nov 20, 2011)

the lesser receiver and better speaker option is a poor choice if he wants to upgrade because not only will he have to buy new speakers but a receiver as well.

buy the Onkyo TX-NR509 receiver/speaker bundle. you will still get something better than Logitech and it will give you a chance to upgrade.

I can't imagine living without Audyssey.










Audyssey calibration guide: http://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...ssey-auto-calibration-other-technologies.html


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## Dent1 (Nov 20, 2011)

To be fair, the TX-SR309 does have some configurations needed for manual calibration. 

I'd say if the OP has his heart on the Onkyo TX-NR509, get it and only two bookshelf speakers. 

Then buy the other two bookshelf speakers + center after.


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## cheesy999 (Nov 21, 2011)

Dent1 said:


> To be fair, the TX-SR309 does have some configurations needed for manual calibration.
> 
> I'd say if the OP has his heart on the Onkyo TX-NR509, get it and only two bookshelf speakers.
> 
> Then buy the other two bookshelf speakers + center after.



do the sourounds have to be the same speakers as the fronts


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

Audyssey is more than that and if he wants to spend $50 on a SPL meter with no way of confirming his readings be my guest.

how good could a set of $70 Yamaha bookshelves really be..


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> do the sourounds have to be the same speakers as the fronts



no


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## cheesy999 (Nov 21, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> no



so I could use some speakers I already have for the front speakers in order to increase quality and keep the rest of the onkyo's for the sorround effect


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## Neuromancer (Nov 21, 2011)

Checkout clubonkyo.com you can buy refurbed amps directly from them for supercheap and earn points towards future upgrades, they might have a european version of the site as well. Worth looking into

The 509 looks like a good receiver DLNA and HDMI connections (although the HDMI portion can be tricky, most do not support 1.4 or bitstream..), and I love my cheap onkyo receiver, BUT the speakers are total crap, I paired mine up with Polk monitor 40s. Would like to get 2 more for 4 channel surround action  Or even better a nice pair of towers and use the monitor40s as rears.



cheesy999 said:


> so I could use some speakers I already have for the front speakers in order to increase quality and keep the rest of the onkyo's for the sorround effect





yes but match impedance


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## twicksisted (Nov 21, 2011)

The Onkyo 509 is a fantastic amp and it features audessy speaker calibration with a mic.
Those speakers are going to be a bit crap though specially with that nice amp... I would get the amp seperate and go for a set of the Boston Soundware XS speakers, they have won a lot of awards and sound fantastic!

http://www.richersounds.com/product/speaker-packages/boston-/soundware-xs/bost-acous-sw-xs-blk

if thats too expensive then get the Onkyo 309 amp which is also great but much cheaper and get those bostons 

I wanted to buy the 509 & bostons but found someone local selling the 309 with a set of Tannoy 5.1's 2nd hand for £180 so I got that... sounds fantastic in my cinema room specially for only £180!!



Neuromancer said:


> (although the HDMI portion can be tricky, most do not support 1.4 or bitstream



Both the 309 & 509 support hdmi 1.4 aswell as pass through 3D signals


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

rear channels is another subject all together: http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/6...iating-monopole-surround-speakers-part-i.html


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 21, 2011)

Here's a nice cheap setup, in lincoln(uk) Comes with a half descent amp too.
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bose-acoustimass-16-series-ii-61-with-matching-amp/91793210

Or this-
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/yamaha-dsp-ax761-av-amplifier-tannoy-sub-5-phillips-speakers/88952723

both come with good amps, and they will deliver too usually.


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

tigger said:


> Here's a nice cheap setup, in lincoln(uk) Comes with a half descent amp too.
> http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bose-acoustimass-16-series-ii-61-with-matching-amp/91793210
> 
> Or this-
> ...


I have 2 yamaha receivers and both are tight.  Once is a VX765.  I have 2 NHT 3-ways and a 3-way center channel that have very good freq resp and are extremely crisp and I hear everything with the yamaha receiver.  Also, their DSP programs are fantastic for simulating 7.1 sound from a stereo source.

I'd stay away from the bose system.  Everyone I talk to says they are basically cruising on their 40 year old reputation.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 21, 2011)

Imo yamaha receivers are up there with the best of them. Personally I really like yamaha receivers.


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

YPAO will equalize LFE but once you get a receiver with Audyssey MultEQ or above there is no contest. I think Yamaha is cheap and doesn't license a lot of technologies so they make their own that do the same but not quite..


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

Try to remember this is a budget build that will have decent speakers but is not going to be at the level of requiring lab accurate calibration.

I do my calibration so it sounds the way I like it, not the way someone tells me it's supposed to sound.  If you can trust your own ears, you can do the process manually.  There were still audiophiles around before these calibration tools came out.


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

if you want the most out of your british space buck do not buy the Yamaha.. the Onkyo is great.


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> if you want the most out of your british space buck do not buy the Yamaha.. the Onkyo is great.



Bullshit.  Show me some reviews - ones that have actual measurements like THD across the output range and not just the spooge of some turd sandwich posting on his blog


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

it's a terrible receiver.

the Yamaha DSP-AX761 is 4 years old, no 3D support, no HD audio, no OSD, HDMI passthrough, 90 watts per channel but drops to 50 once you start adding more channels.


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> it's a terrible receiver.
> 
> the Yamaha DSP-AX761 is 4 years old, no 3D support, no HD audio, no OSD, HDMI passthrough, 90 watts per channel but drops to 50 once you start adding more channels.



blah, blah, blah


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

blah blah blah he was on the right track and didn't need our help.


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

That's debatable.  Home theaters in a box are designed to maximize only one thing - profit margins.

And btw, the first review of that receiver I found contradicted you.  It has 2 hdmi passthroughs.



> The two HDMI v1.3 inputs are able to passthrough a 1080p signal and switch audio at the same time.


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

the receiver will not decode a 1080p signal it passes it directly to your television or monitor like a 4 year old receiver would do. if the receiver won't decode a 1080p signal, Dolby TrueHD or Master DTS then it's useless.


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

The point is your opinion means nothing without supporting facts (not personal declarations) and a cogent argument with which to present it.  You provided neither.  He is not interested in decoding HDMI from what I can tell.  You only need that if you're feeding the monitor through the HTPC.  Otherwise, component cables produce just as good a picture and sound if you have decent cables.

If his first choice is an HTIB, then the minutae you're stumbling around in is simply irrelevant to his choice.


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the Yamaha will only pass 1080i over component but who is going to use component? it's actually HDMI 1.2a


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

That's you and i'm sure this exchange is benefiting no one.  So until the OP comes back with more input,


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## Dent1 (Nov 21, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> Audyssey is more than that and if he wants to spend $50 on a SPL meter with no way of confirming his readings be my guest.
> 
> how good could a set of $70 Yamaha bookshelves really be..



Both the Yamaha's and Wharfedale speakers I linked have dropped price,  due to age most shops are trying to shift them to make room for new stock - a few years back they were closer to £100-150 GBP.


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

a British HiFi magazine I subscribe to gave the Mission MX1 and Tannoy Mercury V1 both five stars in the "up to £200 range" I have no experience with either but at 	£150 I would consider those.


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## Dent1 (Nov 21, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> a British HiFi magazine I subscribe to gave the Mission MX1 and Tannoy Mercury V1 both five stars in the "up to £200 range" I have no experience with either but at 	£150 I would consider those.



Yes those are fantastic speakers.

In the £100-150 price range I also feel the Warfedale Diamond 9.1 (not 9.0), Warfedale Diamond 10.0, KEF C1 and KEF C3.

But we are shooting too far,  my feeling is the OP's budget will not stretch that far.


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## BumbleBee (Nov 21, 2011)

the magazine gave Wharfdale Diamond 10.0 (£130) four stars "These are streets ahead of generic freebies, but fall behind the best" they were not so kind to the 10.5

the only KEF speakers they have reviewed are the Q300.

maybe he should spend his budget on the receiver and come back when he has another for speakers.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 21, 2011)

If he spends his budget on the receiver, whats he going to listen to it with?


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## cheesy999 (Nov 21, 2011)

BumbleBee said:


> the receiver will not decode a 1080p signal it passes it directly to your television or monitor like a 4 year old receiver would do. if the receiver won't decode a 1080p signal, Dolby TrueHD or Master DTS then it's useless.



Decoding the 1080P signal, all it needs to do is take a HDMI signal to the The TV?



twilyth said:


> The point is your opinion means nothing without supporting facts (not personal declarations) and a cogent argument with which to present it.  You provided neither.  He is not interested in decoding HDMI from what I can tell.  You only need that if you're feeding the monitor through the HTPC.  Otherwise, component cables produce just as good a picture and sound if you have decent cables.
> 
> If his first choice is an HTIB, then the minutae you're stumbling around in is simply irrelevant to his choice.



It still needs to hook up with my PS3, (Blu-rays and music) and that's using HDMI at the moment, i don't really understand too much of what you said there, i'm new to the world of home theaters, all I've had before now is a Panasonic, DVD+ surround combo



Dent1 said:


> Yes those are fantastic speakers.
> 
> In the £100-150 price range I also feel the Warfedale Diamond 9.1 (not 9.0), Warfedale Diamond 10.0, KEF C1 and KEF C3.
> 
> But we are shooting too far,  my feeling is the OP's budget will not stretch that far.



I have roughly £300 to spend now, however i'll probably have around £150 by January if it needs to be upgraded, that's why the plan was to buy the Amp with free speakers and then upgrade them if i find they are not of a high enough quality



BumbleBee said:


> the magazine gave Wharfdale Diamond 10.0 (£130) four stars "These are streets ahead of generic freebies, but fall behind the best" they were not so kind to the 10.5
> 
> the only KEF speakers they have reviewed are the Q300.
> 
> maybe he should spend his budget on the receiver and come back when he has another for speakers.



that would leave me with stereo sound for a month or 2



tigger said:


> If he spends his budget on the receiver, whats he going to listen to it with?



i have a few pairs of old speakers (from the 70's/80's mostly), somewhere around the house if they're any good

EDIT:It may also need to hook up to my PC and some other devices


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## twicksisted (Nov 21, 2011)

in that case, go for the package that has the Onkyo 509 amp, then upgrade the speakers when you have the funds


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## Dent1 (Nov 21, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> Decoding the 1080P signal, all it needs to do is take a HDMI signal to the The TV?



The amp doesn’t need to be involved. You can connect the video card's HDMI output to the TV's HDMI input or connect the PS3's HDMI output directly to your TV's HDMI input, you can pass video through the amp for convenience but it not necessary. Although some amps can upscale regular video signals to 1080i/1080p, but this probably doesn't apply to you.



cheesy999 said:


> It still needs to hook up with my PS3, (Blu-rays and music) and that's using HDMI at the moment, i don't really understand too much of what you said there, i'm new to the world of home theaters, all I've had before now is a Panasonic, DVD+ surround combo



All you really need is a receiver with enough HDMI inputs/outputs/coaxial/fibre and support for the HD audio standards. You can spend £1,000 on a receiver (some people do) but they have specific needs that require those features. 



cheesy999 said:


> I have roughly £300 to spend now, however I’ll probably have around £150 by January if it needs to be upgraded, that's why the plan was to buy the Amp with free speakers and then upgrade them if i find they are not of a high enough quality
> 
> that would leave me with stereo sound for a month or 2
> 
> i have a few pairs of old speakers (from the 70's/80's mostly), somewhere around the house if they're any good


Isn't a bad suggestion.




cheesy999 said:


> EDIT:It may also need to hook up to my PC and some other devices



Not a problem. Video card straight to amp via HDMI-out. You might need to upgrade to a more modern ATI or Nvidia video card for full HD through HDMI. But it's straightforward to set up.


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## twilyth (Nov 21, 2011)

cheesy999 said:


> It still needs to hook up with my PS3, (Blu-rays and music) and that's using HDMI at the moment, i don't really understand too much of what you said there, i'm new to the world of home theaters, all I've had before now is a Panasonic, DVD+ surround combo
> 
> 
> i have a few pairs of old speakers (from the 70's/80's mostly), somewhere around the house if they're any good
> ...


I don't have a PS3, but I'm sure that will decode the digital audio for you.  The advantage of using HDMI is that you don't need a sound card.  Pretty much any decent video card made in the last few years that has an HDMI port, will pipe the audio to whatever device you connect it to.  What Bumble Bee was saying was that since that yamaha rx won't decode it, all you will be able to do is pipe it to your display.  The VX765 which is a similar but later model does decode and that's what I use for the system in my office.  It's running off of a GT210 which was like a $30 video card when I bought it.

Old speakers can be ok but look at the collar - the flexible material between the cone and the cabinet.  I had a pair of Acoustic Research bookshelf speakers that I used for a long time but the collar eventually started to rot.  If your speakers look ok and sound ok, go for it.  You can always tune them from the receiver in terms of frequency and volume.  Both of my yamahas let me do that on a per-channel basis, but you should double check that whatever you buy can also do it.


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## acoonalouis (Nov 23, 2011)

Just a minor difference in look of speakers and i think you must check the other factors like volume , bass etc that it proving.


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## cheesy999 (Nov 28, 2011)

Well since best buy started their closing down sale today, i used the money off code on their front page to get the 509 and speakers for £280, which i think was probably a good deal, although i'll still have to hold off getting a new graphics card till next year 

i managed to find out that the speakers the come with it are probably these --> http://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/products/sks-ht528-43122.html, as the package appears to actually be made of 2 separate items

I'll probably have to wait for it to be delivered to work it out for sure


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## MilkyWay (Nov 28, 2011)

I think considering your budget and needs, its a good deal. If you use any SCART devices you should be able to plug them into the tv and then run the tv sound through the reciever no? Like the sound would just passthrough the tv to the receiver because i dont see any SCART connections on that receiver.

If i got a kit/reciever id need to consider that because i have a lot of "legacy" SCART devices, retro consoles ect.

Dunno if the GTS250 has a built in sound chip for the HDMI, you might need to use a spdif passthrough cable to the motherboard or soundcard. Although thinking now that isnt a problem since the receiver will decode instead of the computer, dumbass moment there lol.


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## cheesy999 (Nov 28, 2011)

MilkyWay said:


> I think considering your budget and needs, its a good deal. If you use any SCART devices you should be able to plug them into the tv and then run the tv sound through the reciever no? Like the sound would just passthrough the tv to the receiver because i dont see any SCART connections on that receiver.
> 
> If i got a kit/reciever id need to consider that because i have a lot of "legacy" SCART devices, retro consoles ect.
> 
> Dunno if the GTS250 has a built in sound chip for the HDMI, you might need to use a spdif passthrough cable to the motherboard or soundcard. Although thinking now that isnt a problem since the receiver will decode instead of the computer, dumbass moment there lol.



Shouldn't be too much of a problem, oldest device I have attached to the TV the receivers attaching to at the moment is a PS2, and i can just use the optical port on that for the audio

The PC might be a bigger problem, but I'm sure I'll find a way to make it work

And I'll have to make sound come from the TV to the receiver anyway for when I want to watch TV, I'm planning to use either a HDMI audio return set up if I can get it working, or if not I'll just use the TV's optical out as it's unlikely anything more then stereo will come through, TV or scart is it?


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## MilkyWay (Nov 28, 2011)

Normally you run the TV to the receiver through HDMI. Select the input on the TV that the receiver is connected too then select the input on the receiver.

As for TV my uncle runs his Virgin box through HDMI so he has the set top box plugged direct into the receiver. Worst case scenario you use the optical audio to get sound for the SCART devices and built in freeview on the TV itself.

I forgot the original PS2 had optical audio.

I just imagined the sound would pass through to the receiver, maybe it doesn't work that way though.


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## cheesy999 (Nov 28, 2011)

MilkyWay said:


> Normally you run the TV to the receiver through HDMI. Select the input on the TV that the receiver is connected too then select the input on the receiver.
> 
> As for TV my uncle runs his Virgin box through HDMI so he has the set top box plugged direct into the receiver. Worst case scenario you use the optical audio to get sound for the SCART devices and built in freeview on the TV itself.
> 
> ...



Yes, I Plan on connecting all my devices to the receiver, like the PS2+3 and everything else

But the TV is using Freeview, so the Aerial is plugged into the TV, and devices using Scart will also go straight to the TV

for those i can either 

a)Hope the TV is HDMI 1.4 and therefore has the ability to send Audio back to the receiver
b)Connect an Optical Cable from the TV to the receiver and let sound from the TV pass back that way

But yes, for the most part on things like the PS3+2 I will simply be forwarding video signal through the receiver and let it past through to the TV that way


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## BumbleBee (Nov 28, 2011)

I forgot about that. all 11 Best Buy locations closing after only being open for 17 months..


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