# How have you setup up your fans and cooling + what is your temp.



## Tomgang (Mar 23, 2019)

Im curious to what others have done to there machines to keep them cool and maybe made there own solutions to solve a cooling problem.

I start out. I have done some things like ghetto modes and more to keep the thing cool because last year we had a summer in my country that whas hotter than normal and over a way longer periode that also is normal. This year im ready if this happens again.

First off som spec on the cooling it self.
Case fans 120/140 MM are all corsair ML PWM series and the two small 60 MM fans are from noctua.
CPU cooler fans are 3 x noctua nf-f12 ippc-3000 pwm fans 120 MM
On chipsæt its two 40 MM fans from noiseblocker and one 60 MM noctua fans.
Fan controllers: Aqua Computer Aquaero 6 XT takes care of case and CPU cooler fans with PWM signal and via software self made fan curves and for the small fans i use a NZXT SENTRY 3 that controls fan speed via voltage and a temp sensor.



http://imgur.com/a/NLahrg9








Temp on GPU with max overclock is between 69-72 degrees celsius and CPU temp see image below.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

Generally you want front to back (or bottom to top) air flow through the case. So IMO, your bottom rear fans are going the wrong way. I think as they are now, they just create turbulence and don't help with pulling the heated air out. My eyes are too old to read what that says with your front fans and the arrows going both ways tells me nothing. But in keeping with the desired front to back, they should be drawing cool air in.

Do note that fans cannot cool anything cooler than the ambient (room) temps. So the best you can hope for is to exhaust the heat from within the case as quickly as possible.


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## cucker tarlson (Mar 23, 2019)

I run open case fanless,with heavy ass air coolers on my cpu and gpu.best thing ever for temps and silence.ssds only, hdds in a docking station hid inside a cabinet.

as for your setup,I don't think those little fans are doing much.

as a general observation I should point out that from my experience all this threory about creating air passages stands contrary to actual data.I had my top fan inverted as intake (the one above the ram slots,not the one more to the rear of the case) although people say it disrupts the flow of air.It gave me noticeably lower cpu temps.Same as people say that side fans are unnecessary and mess up the direction of air,but from my experience using a side fan blowing on my gpu gave me better temps all year round.
So intake air is always good but don't go without the rear exhaust in a closed case,it's the most crucial one for the cpu and gpu temps,you'll cook your components without it.

but like I said,I don't use case fans these days anyway.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

Open case is often fine if the ambient temp is not too high. But an open case does not promote a "flow" of air through the case. So heated air can, in some scenarios, become stagnant and not move out, especially if not allowed to rise naturally. But as long as temps are monitored, and it works for you, then great!.


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## cucker tarlson (Mar 23, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> Open case is often fine if the ambient temp is not too high. But an open case does not promote a "flow" of air through the case. So heated air can, in some scenarios, become stagnant and not move out, especially if not allowed to rise naturally. But as long as temps are monitored, and it works for you, then great!.


it's a full tower case and I ripped the top off and removed most of things that could obstruct the air like covers and gromits (is that what this little rubber thing is called?),there's no problems with heat getting trapped.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

"Grommet" is the correct spelling, but yes, those little rubber things that go in holes to either help seal them or to protect the wires that go through them - or both. They are also the name of the metal rings found in tarps and camping tents where you string the tie-down ropes through.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Mar 23, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> "Grommet" is the correct spelling, but yes, those little rubber things that go in holes to either help seal them or to protect the wires that go through them - or both. They are also the name of the metal rings found in tarps and camping tents where you string the tie-down ropes through.



There is also a Dog called Gromit/Grommit/Grommet


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## FireFox (Mar 23, 2019)

Tomgang said:


> Im curious to what others have done to there machines to keep them cool and maybe made there own solutions to solve a cooling problem.







*Not my business but why post it in General Hardware when we are talking about cooling?*


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

tigger said:


> There is also a Dog called Gromit/Grommit/Grommet


Yep! A movie star no less! LOL


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## Tomgang (Mar 23, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> Generally you want front to back (or bottom to top) air flow through the case. So IMO, your bottom rear fans are going the wrong way. I think as they are now, they just create turbulence and don't help with pulling the heated air out. My eyes are too old to read what that says with your front fans and the arrows going both ways tells me nothing. But in keeping with the desired front to back, they should be drawing cool air in.
> 
> Do note that fans cannot cool anything cooler than the ambient (room) temps. So the best you can hope for is to exhaust the heat from within the case as quickly as possible.



The small rear fans is mounted there to exhaust hot from the GPU. Yes i am aware that hot air goes up. But before it do that, the hot air is blasted out to the sides from GPU fans and that where the small fans can suck some of the hot air away from the GPU. But else yes, they are not having the best placement for exhaust fan. There there also only to take some of the hot air away before it climes up to top exhaust fans.



cucker tarlson said:


> I run open case fanless,with heavy ass air coolers on my cpu and gpu.best thing ever for temps and silence.ssds only, hdds in a docking station hid inside a cabinet.
> 
> as for your setup,I don't think those little fans are doing much.
> 
> ...



The small fans as exhaust fans at the GPU, no that limit what they do. I just had them laying around so i used them for something. But the chipsæt fans does a good job. From passiv cooled to max fan speed on chipsæt fans lowered temp by up to 15-20 degrees celsius. At the lowest speed chipsæt temp drops about 5-8  degrees celsius.


Knoxx29 said:


> View attachment 119357
> 
> *Not my business but why post it in General Hardware when we are talking about cooling?*



Interesting with the buttom fans. I might steal that idea for my next pc i am planning on for next year. Depending off cause what case i go with.

Tha fact i posted in generel hardware is a mistake. But i dit not notice it, before you told me


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 23, 2019)

Tomgang said:


> Im curious to what others have done to there machines to keep them cool and maybe made there own solutions to solve a cooling problem.


I have taken the liberty of modifying your original picture(hope you don't mind) to illustrate what would be optimal airflow in a case like the one shown.



In this configuration, an overall negative static air pressure environment is created inside the case and optimal cooling can be maintained.
EDIT; On the cable management side of things, while it's not on any level out of control like some cases, you could use a few zip ties here and there to tidy things up a bit which would also improve airflow somewhat.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

Tomgang said:


> The small rear fans is mounted there to exhaust hot from the GPU.


According to your picture, no they aren't. If they were there to "exhaust" the heat, they would be blowing out, not in. 

You need to study lexluthermiester's illustration. That is how you should have to fans set.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 23, 2019)

I must be confsed... many are saying his fans are wrong or not optimized, but I see front fans blowing in, rear fans blowing out, and top fan blowing out. The only fan i see that is fighting air flow is the tiny Noctua strapped to the top of the motherboard.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 23, 2019)

Heres an older pic, back when i was running with the X79|3930k. A few changes have been made since but the case is still the same.





I have a 120mm Corsair ML, pulling in air from the bottom.


Temps are generally pretty good. currently idling at 30-35'c and tops out about 60'c give or take. Maybe 65'c depending on the ambient temp. I think my 1080Ti tops out at 50-55'c and idles between 15-21'c depending on ambient temps.


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## Tomgang (Mar 23, 2019)

lexluthermiester said:


> I have taken the liberty of modifying your original picture(hope you don't mind) to illustrate what would be optimal airflow in a case like the one shown.
> View attachment 119360
> In this configuration, an overall negative static air pressure environment is created and optimal cooling can be maintained.



And that is also how i set up the airflow i have, just as you illustrate here. case fans are just not running at the same RPM. Cause fan RPM is based on temp on CPU or GPU so that gpu and cpu gets the right amount of air flow and i dont get more noice than needed.

Fan curves











Bill_Bright said:


> According to your picture, no they aren't. If they were there to "exhaust" the heat, they would be blowing out, not in.
> 
> You need to study lexluthermiester's illustration. That is how you should have to fans set.



Ah i see. You thought the arrows showed airflow indication. They are not. Arrows I used just to show what fans I whas speaking about and also why the different colours used.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 23, 2019)

sneekypeet said:


> I must be confsed... many are saying his fans are wrong or not optimized, but I see front fans blowing in, rear fans blowing out, and top fan blowing out. The only fan i see that is fighting air flow is the tiny Noctua strapped to the top of the motherboard.


The original picture was a bit complicated and I thought a simplification might help to clarify.


Tomgang said:


> Ah i see. You thought the arrows showed airflow indication. They are not. Arrows I used just to show what fans I was speaking about and also why the different colours used.


To be fair that wasn't clear, thus the re-illustration. Meant no offense of course.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 23, 2019)

The original picture is one of twelve, you swipe through them on mobile.


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## Tomgang (Mar 23, 2019)

sneekypeet said:


> I must be confsed... many are saying his fans are wrong or not optimized, but I see front fans blowing in, rear fans blowing out, and top fan blowing out. The only fan i see that is fighting air flow is the tiny Noctua strapped to the top of the motherboard.



I think people getting confused by the arrows. They think thats how the airflow is and that is not the case. But you are right about top fan on motherboard that dosent go with the flow such of speak. That fan blows air to chipsæt cooler and VRM´s as chipsæt/VRM gets pretty toasty on X58 when overclock high.



lexluthermiester said:


> The original picture was a bit complicated and I thought a simplification might help to clarify.
> 
> To be fair that wasn't clear, thus the re-illustration. Meant no offense of course.


Thats totally fine. It has clearly fooled some people about airflow.


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## sneekypeet (Mar 23, 2019)

Tomgang said:


> I think people getting confused by the arrows. They think thats how the airflow is and that is not the case. But you are right about top fan on motherboard that dosent go with the flow such of speak. That fan blows air to chipsæt cooler and VRM´s.



I agree with the arrow assessment, and I get the point of the small noctua. I was just iterating it was the only fan I could see causing any sort of turbulence.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

sneekypeet said:


> but I see front fans blowing in, rear fans blowing out, and top fan blowing out


Not according to his original image. Where lex is showing the two lower fans by the graphics card blowing out, the OP's original image showed them blowing in.


sneekypeet said:


> The original picture is one of twelve, you swipe through them on mobile.


Yes 12 images, but the image where he drew in the arrows for air flow (the one lex used for his edited image) is not among the 12 now.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 23, 2019)

sneekypeet said:


> The original picture is one of twelve, you swipe through them on mobile.


I see what you're saying. Very rarely view TPU on mobile..


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## sneekypeet (Mar 23, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> Not according to his original image. Where lex is showing the two lower fans by the graphics card blowing out, the OP's original image showed them blowing in.
> 
> Yes 12 images, but the image where he drew in the arrows for air flow (the one lex used for his edited image) is not among the 12 now.



OP explained, arrows were just pointing to the fans, not showing airflow. If you look at the 12 images, they are all installed correctly. The OP was never edited so all the information was there, you just had to look.


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 23, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> Yes 12 images, but the image where he drew in the arrows for air flow (the one lex used for his edited image) is not among the 12 now.


Didn't view the Imgur pics. They show additional fans mounted on the front grill pulling air in. Given the clarification by the OP, I'd say that system has optimal airflow. The cable management suggestion might help a bit but otherwise Tomgang's system seems in good shape.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

sneekypeet said:


> OP explained, arrows were just pointing to the fans, not showing airflow.


Yeah, understand now. As I noted in post number 2, if flow is front to back, bottom to top, then all is good. And it appears that is what is happening.


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## overvolted (Mar 23, 2019)

Here's mine.

3 140 phanteks fans in front pulling in (came with the case and are good), 3 coolermaster 120s with rad in top, and a plain black coolermaster fan in the rear. I dont know what the plain black fan is, but it moves some serious air on its own and is very quiet. All are BIOS controlled with a curve I set up. It gets a little "loud", but you cant hear them over any game, so it's a non-issue and I don't care.

Playing far cry 5 for 45 minutes at max settings 2560x1080, my cpu doesnt break 50c and my GPU is at 48c which is surprising.  Case is a phanteks evolv-x with the improved intake/exhaust venting.
Cooling is solid and effective, but she definitely pushes out some warm air, and if I open the door you can definitely feel some warm air.  But it works well enough for me.
The top exhaust venting can definitely be improved, but I have no real complaints. I can also turn up the fan speeds if I want. I have some headroom to work with there.

Idle temp is 28c. Processor is ryzen 7 1700 at 3750mhz, ram at 3200, gpu boosts to 2010 on its own for reasons unknown. I've never messed with clocks on it.

One thing I want to play with is the fan headers that come on my video card to see if that makes any difference, but I'm really in no hurry.


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## Vario (Mar 23, 2019)

Trial and error came up with this setup.  The one major constraint is the power supply's exhaust direction which empties into the front bezel.  Because of this, I needed the front fan (left side in the empty HDD Cage area) to be intake to empty the front bezel of hot air from the power supply unit's exhaust.  A hole was cut in the bottom of case for the power supply to intake.  The power supply has to be flipped down to take in cool air from below so it doesn't fight the front fan.   Rear must be exhaust due to the front fan being intake.  Front fan doesn't supply much air because it is behind a solid bezel so the 140mm top fan must be an intake.  Upper right side PCI Slot area by graphics card provides passive intake.  Fans are all high pressure high airflow fans.  Top two photos are stock/reviewer photos of the Lian Li A05 case.
CPU 55*C in game
VGA 50*C in game
SSD 970 Pro NVMe 34 *C
HDD (in 5.25" slot) 27*C
Ram 30*C


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## robot zombie (Mar 23, 2019)

Too lazy for pics right now. My setup is very basic. Completely vanilla, standard cooling setup. Everything is as listed in specs. Slight negative pressure bias. Dust is not a problem for me - it really is slight negative pressure and I clean pretty religiously.  I'm considering pulling the top and maybe also the rear exhaust out and seeing how things go with intake running unrestricted in a defacto positive pressure config. I'm betting it won't matter in my case. I'm also thinking about tethering the lower intake to GPU instead of CPU, and maybe rigging an exhaust for the GPU in front of the lower card slots, as the OP has done. Mostly just to use the two fan hubs on my GPU. 

Honestly at this point I feel like I've struck a good balance and that is why I haven't done these things yet. I feel like temperatures now are better than they need to be and the whole rig is nearly imperceptibly quiet in games. Until recently, I had even more headroom with a Scythe cooler. I swapped to the DR for looks and lost nothing in noise and little in temps. I mean, in stress testing this CPU can start to put up some watts, but even that is limited with only a modest 4ghz all-core OC applied. I was just saying elsewhere how it doesn't surpass 60w in games. Doesn't take a whole lot to cool that. No game even comes close to maxing it at 60fps. I mean, duh.

CPU temperatures under things like prime95 or anything linpacks fall solidly under 70C... often closer to 65. On older games CPU temps hover around 40C. Often I will pop out of a game like Fallout 4 and see peaks of 49 with current temp at 37. Those peaks seem very rare. I've yet to catch it actively anywhere near there. The hardest hit I've seen yet is Metro Exodus, which will take it up to 55C max, 45C current, most times I check.

As far as GPU temps go, the Strix 2060 cooler is excellent. When utilization/core load actually kicks up to 100, it'll boost to 2010mhz and flatline at 55-60C, where the power limit kicks in. At this point, wattage will go up to around 170w and yet fans don't exceed 60%. Older games don't even tax it hard enough to boost all the way up @ 1080/60, in which cases I can see temperatures between 48 and 52, with wattage maxing at 130ish during the odd times when it does hit 2ghz.

One that does irk me is my 970 evo nvme. The controller goes up into the upper 70's under normal operation. Doesn't seem to affect other components and performance is on-target so I leave it be. I'd like to slap a little heatsink on that controller one day, though. I'm thinking it's the case airflow. Most times my intakes barely run. Doesn't take as much fresh air to feed my CPU and GPU coolers as it does to cool that little drive, apparently. Could also be a directivity problem, with my negative pressure arrangement leaving that area with pockets of stagnation. That's another reason I wanted to try mounting a fan in front of the card slots... to hopefully encourage air to travel straight from the intake, to under the GPU, and out of the back, rather than sort of bouncing around and being pushed by air drawn through the gaps in the side panel and lower rear of the case.

I'm sure there are some minor improvements I could make, but why mess with something like that? Cooling to me either is or is not adequate. It gets to a point where you're just chasing a number that has long since become irrelevant. I don't typically work my rig hard enough to even begin to necessitate let alone benefit from more. As long as temperatures are not limiting performance and things are reasonably quiet, I don't care all that much *shrug*


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 23, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> Honestly at this point I feel like I've struck a good balance


If it ain't broke, don't f&^% with it!


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## robot zombie (Mar 23, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> If it ain't broke, don't f&^% with it!


Absolutely. Every single change I have made to this setup has been done to address an immediate problem or deficit. CPU cooler being the only exception. The one other time I made an arbitrary change to it, everything went to shit. And in fact that has always been my experience. There will always be those thoughts of "Maybe it would be better if I..." Famous last words.

I have a friend who does that with his cars. Can't be told it's a bad idea. Last time he did that it literally nearly killed him. He tightened the belt on his little Mustang's supercharger. Simple little thing, right? No. Understand the boost was already nominal across the entire powerband - it was perfect and already almost too fast for street driving, but he just couldn't leave it be. Said it felt "a little sluggish."

Beautiful all black foxbody-era Mustang. Fully decked out v8 w/ quality aluminum block. He sunk in the time and money to turn that car into something completely unlike any Mustang I've ever seen in person, let alone drove. It was modded and tuned sort of like a professional track car. You cannot simply buy a car like that. Definite sleeper. "Oh, that's sporty." people would mistakenly think. Ridiculous horsepower for something so small and light. Tiny terror on the track. Too much so. Difficult to control at high acceleration, and at that point you aren't punching it yet. Just wants to go. Would blow a lot of very expensive muscle cars at the dealership right off the lot, never to be seen again. Good car to kill yourself in. Last time we took it to the track it pushed 180mph easily, only being held back by the transmission. Think about that lol. Car like that is never supposed to be that fast. Small, light, powerful, and very, very dangerous in the wrong hands. Like a Lotus Elise's estranged degenerate sibling. Only it was not aerodynamically suited to that kind of power-weight balance, and don't get me started on the tires and suspension. But at least on the street it was still driveable and perfectly safe for a reasonably skilled and experienced driver, so long as they know what they're driving. Transmission setup made it entirely possible to drive it like any normal car. You just operate the shifter and clutch a little differently to counteract the power. I am neither a novice nor an expert and had little trouble adjusting to its temperament as it was before the adjustment. Fun as hell to drive. You feel unstoppable. It was like you could go from putting along to flipping a switch and going into warp drive. I wanted that car for myself, not gonna lie.

Long story short, it was a beastly little car that you really had to respect. It was the best it could be as it was. He was rightly proud. And somehow he got in his head that it should go faster, just because he could think of a way to do it. 

It just so happened that in needlessly fucking with things, he way over-tightened the belt tensioner for his supercharger, stripping the adjustment bolt in the process. In fact over the months he was always messing with that belt for nothing but minor losses and gains. Well, no more tweaking now. From then on, the boost only ever went full force.

As you went up the RPMs, the acceleration never stopped increasing. No more middle-road. There was only bat out of hell fast. The difference between 500rpm was at times a puke-inducing shift in g-forces. It was the kind of thing that blows your eyes wide open as you feel your control of everything dwindling. You would be entirely at the will of the car and the road. I'm not scared of fast cars - I simply respect them. But that shook me up something fierce. My body froze in the driver's seat. All you had to do to get the front tires off of the ground was put groceries in the trunk and slam the gas. Otherwise the back tires would just spin if you looked at that boost gauge wrong. I tried it once and then never again. The real challenge was not rear ending people or fishtailing while changing lanes. Forget the drive-thru. With one foul turn of a ratchet, he turned it fully into a poor-mans dragster lol. Track-only, and only on the right track. Lead weights not included. Unfortunately this was his only car at the time, so with no more time to free the bolt, he was forced to drive it like that on the road daily. A week or so later he slipped up and spun it round and round for a good while, bouncing along the divider on a rainy highway. That car will never be the same. He's lucky to not say the same for himself. Just a tap of the gas... so now no more Mustang and 100% more reverence for being alive.

Sometimes attempting to solve the problems you invent in your own mind leads to problems that are much harder to solve than the ones that come around naturally. PC's aren't nearly as dangerous as cars, but the wisdom still carries over. Just one little turn and one stripped bolt... all too often it is much easier to break things than it is to fix them. Sometimes you don't know what "perfect" is until you've lost it. It's the little things that kill you.

Not really relevant to the topic at hand, but a story that came to mind... ...I guess a better example on these forums would be people who unnecessarily flash their GPU's bios and wind up with a non-functioning card instead of the better-functioning one they had hoped for.

Carry on...


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## FireFox (Mar 23, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> Absolutely. Every single change I have made to this setup has been done to address an immediate problem or deficit. CPU cooler being the only exception. The one other time I made an arbitrary change to it, everything went to shit. And in fact that has always been my experience. There will always be those thoughts of "Maybe it would be better if I..." Famous last words.
> 
> I have a friend who does that with his cars. Can't be told it's a bad idea. Last time he did that it literally nearly killed him. He tightened the belt on his little Mustang's supercharger. Simple little thing, right? No. Understand the boost was already nominal across the entire powerband - it was perfect and already almost too fast for street driving, but he just couldn't leave it be. Said it felt "a little sluggish."
> 
> ...


I thought that i was reading the Bible


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## robot zombie (Mar 24, 2019)

Knoxx29 said:


> I thought that i was reading the Bible


Hmmm... suddenly I'm thinking "robot jesus" would have been a better username. Feels like a major missed opportunity. I'm sad now.


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## Caring1 (Mar 24, 2019)

I thought it was an episode of The Fast and The Furious


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## robot zombie (Mar 24, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> I thought it was an episode of The Fast and The Furious


Not nearly as glamorous. And twice as dumb. That car was an absolute rig. A mechanics nightmare and a tweaker's best friend. Vin Diesel would have a good laugh at the mess. I promise you my life is not that interesting or crazy. This was more in the class of "regular people dumb shit."

But no, that really is more or less how things went, though obviously when I say things like "All you had to do to get the front tires off of the ground was put groceries in the trunk and slam the gas" I am using hyperbole to imply that the gas is very touchy. It couldn't actually do that. Well..._maybe_ it could've. No way to know now. The speed, however, was no joke. Trying to go 10 or 15 mph was a real challenge with the power and gearing. Not kidding about the no drive-thru rule. Parking lots were bad enough. The transmission wasn't really set up for a motor with that much oomph. I don't think it was even made for it. No granularity to the acceleration. That made things very very scary very easily.

It doesn't take a lot to make a small car very fast. Even less to make it impossible to control. The reason that most cars don't go that fast isn't because they can't. It's because they shouldn't. You don't have to spend a LOT a lot of money to have a car that goes fast. Nothing stopping you but fear maybe. Whether or not it's equipped to handle it is another question.

Cars are super interesting to me. But they're also super expensive to me. So I rely on friends who have cool cars to keep things interesting. As a bonus I don't risk death nearly as often as I would otherwise, but I still get to tell all of the fun stories


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## Caring1 (Mar 24, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> The speed, however, was no joke. Trying to go 10 or 15 mph was a real challenge with the power and gearing. Not kidding about the no drive-thru rule. Parking lots were bad enough. The transmission wasn't really set up for a motor with that much oomph. I don't think it was even made for it. No granularity to the acceleration. That made things very very scary very easily.


My sister's partner has a car like that, street car that runs on AV gas, much too powerful for the roads, at idle with your foot on the brake it still tries to lurch forward when in drive.


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## John Naylor (Mar 24, 2019)

Most folks overthink this issue.

1.  When thinking about "your box", thing about the box you live in.   Does your kitchen have an exhaust fan ? ... wheres the intake fan ?    What about when cooling a bedroom, if you put an exhaust fan in window, do you need to have another one blowing in ?  No of course not.   The same principle applies. 

2.  Now lets look at those rear intake fans.   .... what I see is a pair of fans that is pulling in hot exhaust from a very inefficient 1500 watt PSU and a 300 watt GFX card.   Last thing ya want is air being pulled in adjacent to hot exhaust locations.

3.  I'd guess is you put a "kil-o-watt" meter on ya system it's pulling about 525 watts at full load.  or about 1/3 load.  because of that light load, it's only running about 85% efficient which means 15% of the load is being exhausted as heat... that and about a third of ya 300 watt GFX card ... so figure those fans are pulling in 180 watts

4.  In general ....

Front and bottom - always intakes
Rear - always exhaust
Top - it depends

If there's a radiator on top, rad fans always bring air in.  NO EXCEPTIONS.   With 33C coolant, 23C ambient and 28C case air temps, you get twice as much cooling from ambient air as inside case air.    I have yet to read any component manufcaturer's manual that says 18C is a bad thing for their components.

Most folks advise against negative case pressure because of dust but, while true, it's only a minor concern.  Having more air going out than coming in via fans means that you are creating the same condition as you have now with thise rear fans..... you are sucking air in thru the open grilles.  Again, the grilles (and vented slot covers) are a critical part of cooling, just as they are in your house ...exhaust fans create negative pressure ... the higher pressure outside your house (or your case) will push air in due to the negative prssure created by your kitchen, bedroom or attic fan.

A good rule of thumb is to have at least 3 intakes in front for every 2 exhaust .... air inlet filters can restrict air flow up to 30% so let's "do the math".  If your package says that your fan is rated at 70 cfm and 1.2 SP, that means it pushes 70 cfm at 0 SP and 0 cfm @ 1.2 SP ... so reality is you will see about 35 cfm at 0.6 SP.
https://martinsliquidlab.wordpress....w-specs-are-poor-measures-of-fan-performance/

So lets take that 35 cfm as our base.....

3 intakes x 35 cfm (100% - 30%) = 73.5 cfm
2 exhaust x 35 cfm (100% - 0%)   = 70.0 cfm

Now that's with a  good amount of dust on your filters ... when clean it will have significantly less impact.

Another example ....

(3 intakes front + 2 intakes at bottom) x 35 cfm (100% - 30%) = 122.5 cfm
(2 exhaust top and 1 exhaust rear) x 35 cfm (100% - 0%)   = 105.0 cfm

Still works ... extra air will be forced out thru grille and vented slot covers .... not hot exhaust air getting sucked back in.

Now lets look at the typical AIO installation ....

(3 intakes front ) x 35 cfm (100% - 30%) = 73.5 cfm
(2 exhaust top and 1 exhaust rear) x 35 cfm (100% - 0%)   = 105.0 cfm ... ouch .... 30+ cfm of hot exhaust being sucked in thru rear case grilles.

I can't really make a recommendation as with all the different sizes, speeds and no way to really tell what's going where ... makes the math difficult.   One of the best tools you can use for your own testing is a $35 Chauvet Fog machine off amazon ... if you blow smoke behind the case and it gets inside, that's  a bad thing.

The car bit reminded me of a funny story ..... gal "from the neighborhood" I knew... her hot rodder BF put car (big ass 440 challenger ) in her name cause he lost his license.  So he goes off to jail and she's moving ... asks me to help, she could not drive the car.... you had to push head against headrest to leave the curb.     We had taken it to the drive-in (4 of us in car and when we left almost killed ourselves trying to navigate out of the hills .   So she decides to move out and I get to house and she has the car stuffed with clothes and stuff  furnture on roof of car ... I'm like "we wont get 100 feet down the road with that couch up there".   Well we did but only after I went to and grabbed some moving straps I had and a trip to hardware store and got like 300 feet more of rope.  That coauch looked like Gulliver all tied down by 10,000 Lilliputions.


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## Splinterdog (Mar 24, 2019)

You've all got it wrong. This is how to do it.


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## Tatty_One (Mar 24, 2019)

I am a simple man, I have 2 x 140mm blowing air in at the front, 1 x 140mm on the bottom blowing air in, 1 x 140mm exhaust at the rear and a 240mm AIO top mounted with 2 120mm fans blowing the toasty CPU overclock air out, VERY quiet and "system" temps are reported as 21C at idle and 29C gaming although probably not that accurate.


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## newtekie1 (Mar 24, 2019)

I've got a Fractal Design S with the top vent and side panel vent blocked off.  I've got 2x140mm fans in the front pulling air in through the 280mm AIO radiator, and a single 140mm in the back as an exhaust. The PSU is mounted with the fan pulling cool air from outside the case.

Under full load the 8700K@4.8GHz stays in the high 60s, with brief peaks up to 75°C.  During games the CPU says around 50°C, and my 1080Ti runs at about 70°C.


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## robot zombie (Mar 24, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> You've all got it wrong. This is how to do it.
> View attachment 119390


Lol Ive actually had to do that. I had the stock fan die on my poor Athlon back in the day. Ran it like that with just the heatsink for days while I waited for a new cooler. Never since seen better idle temperatures.


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## Wavetrex (Mar 24, 2019)

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...





Why the heck ?

2x RAM overclocked 7970 GE running at 100% utilization for a couple of months, in mid summertime


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 24, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> 1. When thinking about "your box", thing about the box you live in. Does your kitchen have an exhaust fan ? ... wheres the intake fan ? What about when cooling a bedroom, if you put an exhaust fan in window, do you need to have another one blowing in ? No of course not. The same principle applies.


Ummm, sorry but that is really flawed logic

YES! Absolutely you do need intakes - maybe not fans but for the most efficient ventilation, you need to replace the air you are exhausting out. In HVAC industry circles, this is called "supply air" or "replacement air" and is recommended to be at least 90% of the exhaust flow. If you don't have a dedicated intake vent, those kitchen and bedroom exhaust fans will attempt to pull air in from "leaky places" - that is cracks around your outer windows and doors.

For that reason, nearly all commercial kitchens and the better home kitchen exhaust fans have, or recommend supply air vents. And for bedroom ventilation, it is common practice to open a window on the other side (or in another room) to replace the air (pull in fresh air) the exhaust fan it blowing out. In fact, look up cross ventilation. For a bedroom or kitchen, this will result in saved energy costs too because it is not pulling air conditioned or heated air (depending on the season of the year) from the middle of your house.

Note this is not about those kitchen vents that just recirculate the air through a grease filter and pump it back into the kitchen. But those that actually exhaust the air (and smoke) to the outdoors.



John Naylor said:


> If there's a radiator on top, rad fans always bring air in. NO EXCEPTIONS.


NO EXCEPTIONS? Well, of course, that's not true either. Look at your car radiator. Do the radiator fans push air through the radiator, or pull it through? Why did you have that bedroom window fan blowing out? Because the idea is to exhaust the heat out.

Many people prefer to pull air through their top mounted computer radiators to exhaust the heat out. When the fans push through as intakes, they only blow in the round circle of the blades - missing many of the fins. When they exhaust out (pull through) more of the fins feel the air movement so they too can release their heat.

Do you really want to blow the heat from the radiator back into the case? I don't. How's that helping the rest of the heat sensitive components inside?

If you prefer to have your top mounted radiator fans bring air in, and thus return the CPU's heat back into the case, fine. If that works for you and that's what you want, no problem. But if you want your fans exhausting heat out of your case, and you are still keeping your CPU properly cooled, that's fine too. Point is, it is just wrong to say "NO EXCEPTIONS" because there are plenty. Trial and error will tell what is best for your specific computer cooling needs.


Wavetrex said:


> A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...


Don't knock it. I frequently recommend to this day folks blast a desk fan into the open case to troubleshoot potential heat issues.


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## John Naylor (Mar 24, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> You've all got it wrong. This is how to do it.



That's a great test .... if you get significantly cooler temps doing that, adding a few fans would be  agreat idea.




Tatty_One said:


> I am a simple man, I have 2 x 140mm blowing air in at the front, 1 x 140mm on the bottom blowing air in, 1 x 140mm exhaust at the rear and a 240mm AIO top mounted with 2 120mm fans blowing the toasty CPU overclock air out, VERY quiet and "system" temps are reported as 21C at idle and 29C gaming although probably not that accurate.



Not enough info but let's assume your AIO fans are higher rpm but blowing the same cfm as slower 140s

Say 1500 rpm case fan = 1 EF (equivalent fan output)
Say 2000 rpm AIO fan = 1 EF
Moderately dusty air filters on inlets reduces air intake by 30%

Intakes are 3 EF - 30% air flow restriction = 2.1 EF
Exhausts = 3 EF

You're experiencing negative air situation which in and of itself isn't a bad thing other than i expect that you are sucking in PSU and GP exhaust thru rear grille / vented slot covers.

Your cooling approach, (AIO on CPU only) indicates that the intent is to pay special attention to CPU cooling ... but yet, instead of cooling the CPU with cooler ambient air, you chose to have " 2 x 120mm fans blowing the toasty preheated inside the case air" cooling your CPU.  Look at your car ... does the fan push the hot preheated air from the engine compartment out ... or does it pull in the outside air which is invariable cooler ?

Couple of things to think about.

The only thing you have decided to waterecool is your 90 watt TDP CPU which OC'd is prolly pushing ~ 125 watts.   To remove the heat from that 125 watt CPU, is it a good idea to use inside the case air preheated by a 200 watts GFX card (say 240 with power slider at +20%) ?  Not to mention the heat generated by the 40 watt MoBo.  We could discount that portion of the GPU that gets forced out thru the rear vent but much of that along with hot PSU exhaust is getting sucked right back in thru rear grille. Of course paying attention to intake air filters will minimize this but having when ya have more heat generated by interior components being pushed thru the radiator  than the CPU block is removing, ya working at cross purposes.






It's hard to actually estimatewhat's going in and what's going out as fan specs are useless (if ya get half the flow on the package / spec sheet, you are lucky), the resistance provided by grilles and filters caries by design and how much dust has built up.... you can address this by having separate fan curves.  In the box behind my back in my home office (Ethoo Luxe)  originally as it was set up, blowing fog (https://www.amazon.com/CHAUVET-H700-Hurricane-Machine-Machines/dp/B0002D0JX8) at the rear of the case resulted in case filling up with fog.   The case specs list 1 x 140mm fan for bottom but there was space to fit a 2nd ... there were only 2 screw holes to whole it down but gravity still works.... adding that extra fan was enough to reverse the case pressure situation and trying the fog machine again resulted in no fog getting inside.

Nothing wrong with having top fans blow out ... provided ya have enough fans blowing more total air in than out.   If not possible, I'd use non vented slot covers, block off any rear grilles and try and provide alternate points for additional air to get it thru side mounted fans or even filtered 5/25" bay covers.

https://www.moddiy.com/products/Vented-5.25"-Drive-Bay-Cover-with-Dust-Filter.html


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## Tatty_One (Mar 24, 2019)

The AIO fans are blowing the hot air outside of the case, additionally the 2 x front 140's are blowing cool air onto both GPU (bottom of the 2) and feeding the AIO fans with cool air (top 140), all I can say is it works well, simply because my 6700K @ 4.6gig never goes above the high sixties in heavy gaming and the GPU's temps hit 70 max and it is overclocked too, although it has a very good and quiet cooler..... so for me it works very well.


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## John Naylor (Mar 25, 2019)

Bill_Bright said:


> Ummm, sorry but that is really flawed logic
> 
> YES! Absolutely you do need intakes - maybe not fans but for the most efficient ventilation, you need to replace the air you are exhausting out. In HVAC industry circles, this is called "supply air" or "replacement air" and is recommended to be at least 90% of the exhaust flow. If you don't have a dedicated intake vent, those kitchen and bedroom exhaust fans will attempt to pull air in from "leaky places" - that is cracks around your outer windows and doors.
> 
> ...




It's not about what I want, it's about mathematics, thermodynamics and using actual test data obtained with accurate measurement capability  versus google and intuition.  And I agree with you, using a desk fan is a great way to test if case has adequate cooling.  As for the rest ....

I own a consulting firm that designs industrial plants, commercial kitchens, etc.     My current fun project is a 7,500 sf sports bar / restaurant where for the "in house sport", owner is replacing dart boards with viking throwing axes.   To my view selling alcohol where throwing weapons for fun, ... well let's just say, i wouldn't wanna pay the insurance bill.  In this instance, with, 200 persons, 100s of meals per hour, lots of body heat, electronic devices, large open spaces covering multiple floors, the HVAC is complicated ..... in an industrial plant, not so much and that is more analagous to a PC case.

Either way. the work requires having obtained a professional engineering license, 4 year internship and since then ... 40+ years of professional practice where if you are wrong, death, injury and finacial losses can be significant.  We just completed a bakery with ovens you can drive a car into and were already hired to do a 2nd one for same client.    Today's buildings are designed to  stringent energy codes where powered intake air is a must.  Before 1980, this wan't so.  The PC case is by no means representative if these modern day "tight" buildings.  Your PC case is more like an indiustrial plant where building heat for comfort is an afterhtought as, when operating, the heat generated within is > than what would be needed to heat it.  When we run the engines at the power plant, we have chain operators for windows about 40 feet above the floor on south side.... and chest level windows for air inlet .... no mechanical ventilation necessary.  

PC cases, if properly designed, have gaping grilles and vented slot covers ....we don't see this in buildings, otherwise winters in northern climates would be a real bitch.  No doubt at some point you have walked into a delicatessen or such place where food us being cooked and found a situation where you try and open the door and there's significant resistance... once door cracked, there's a rush of air into the building.     That's due to a building that was not designed properly.  In a PC case designers are not worried about energy codes because there's no design goal for "reducing energy consumption" ... it's all waste heat.

Take any house built before 1980 that hasn't be updated and show me an intake fan ..... the attic fan blows out because it is located up high where hot air collects ..... back then, more than enough air got back in the house thru gaps  at doors, windows, electrical outlets, etc.    That's a great comparison to a PC case....  modern energy code compliant house is not.  New furnaces don't just have a combustion air exhaust, they have intakes too.  So comparing these to a case is lemons and pineapples.

We use a blower door test to measure just how tight a house is and infrared cameras to detect points of heat loss.  When you designed a simple kitchen system re energy code, the design was based upon providing a hood where hot air and combustion gases collect.   The exhaust fan does that, and it's placed in the top of the hood cause that's where heat collects.   There was no intake fan ...  because the exhaust fan reduces air pressure inside the house and the higher outside air pressure forces air in all by itself.   I have a complete commercial kitchen in my house.  It's a 200 year old post and beam dairy barn that was converted to a house in the 1970s.     The owner at the time was a contractor so he did pretty well insulating the house but it's still a 1970s house, non compliant w/ todays energy codes.   The exhaust hood has (4) 300 cfm fans, no make up air,  and even when all are running, it doesn't present an issue opening doors.    Plenty of air gets in cause the house is just not 'tight" .... this is a far more extreme condition ventilation wise than a PC case that has gaping holes that you can see thru.  

Now when a building gets of sufficient sufficient size, more and more energy code requirements kick in in.  For example, in our last design the amount of cooking equipment warranted 2,400 cfm of exhaust.  Now the knee jerk reaction is that it needs to have 2400 cfm blown in.  This is an approach many folks take with their PCs.   But that's why they don't let people w/o professional licenses design them.    At that size / exhaust level the energy code requires that a heat exchanger be used ....the hot exhaust air passes thru a hear exchanger which transfers the heat to an intake vent which pushes 2/3 (not 90%) of the air back into the room thru the hoods ventilation system.   A fan may be required here if the close fin spacing of the heat exhanger requires  it.   Why not 100% or even 90% ?  ... because then the hood is ineffective and will fail inspection.   Remember in addition to getting the heat out, it's also removing smoke, grease and combustion gases ... therfore return air is capped at about 2/3.

The balance must be made up separately.  In warmer climates this may just mean gravity louvers which open when negative air pressure is present .... no fan required.   Where winter temps are an issue, "economizers" whereby intake louvers are installed which will equalize the interior pressure ... depending on measured outside versus indoor air temps, heat exchangers may be placed in these inlets.  As buildings get larger and the restriction of the heat exchangers increases, powered fans may be required.   Again, that is in now way representative of a PC case.

As for your other analogies ... well they actually argue against your position:

1.  The placement of the fan under a car hood has nothing to to with anything related thermodynamics.   There are slight differences between fan performance in push or pull situations but this simply is not at all in play here.    At lower rpms, push generally does better ... at higher rpms, pull does better.  Will refer to documentation later on.   But again, this has nothing to do with fan placement in the instace you have chosen.   Look at this pic:

https://s.hswstatic.com/gif/cooling-system-fan.jpg

Looking at that picture, do you see the obvious design problem ?  To my eyes, getting the shaft and fan belt on the other side of the radiator presents some rather imposing design issues mainly the required hole thru the middle of the radiator.   An electric fan can be added to either side but having it under the hood is more common for ease of servicing.    The reason why the air is funneled thru the rad from oustside the engine compartment rather than from within is the same as the PC case.   What is more efficient, cooling your engine with that 90F degree air outside in summer traffic or cooling it  with the 130F air in your engine compartment.   The law of thermodynamics says that cooling efficiency is proportional to Delta T so what's bigger ?  Answer to rehetorical question = outside air.  

a)  Delta T  = 200F coolant - 90 F outside air 
b)  Delta T  = 200F coolant - 130 F engine compartment air

It doesn't hurt that when car is in motion fan has to do a lot less work.   If we set up up like you want to for  a PC case, better to drive everywhere in reverse.

So yes, the PC case is the equivalent of the engine compartment, just not the way you thought.   The cooling system is designed to cool the coolant so that the coolant can cool the engine (PC equivalent CPU).   So if we agree that we do not want the car fan to blow the preheated engine compartment air thru the radiator because that would unwise and inefficient, your PC radiator works by the same principle.   Always use the coolest air source available* ... so yes, NO EXCEPTIONS.  *In a PC case, as it's simply more efficient exactly like the car.  Is the air heated by coming thru your car radiator bothering your engine ?   No. It's not bothering your PC components either.   The car radiators and PC radiators function in the same way ... both work better using outside air.  

2.  And no, you don't use an exhaust fan in a windows to "get the heat of a room", you use it to exchange hot air from one location to another location.  Whether a fan is used more effectively  in or out depends on placement of the opening.  Exhaust ducts are places near ceilings cause that's where hot air collects.... heating ducts are placed near floors to create air movement / circulation as hot air rises.  When you are talking windows at the same level, it makes absolutely no difference.   If 100 cf of hot air blows out, 100 cf of cool air comes in, that it.   If 100 cf or cool air comes in, 100 cf of hot air gets pushed out.    If I have 2 half gallon containers,  one holds 70F water, one holds 50F water.   If I pour the 70F into the 50F container or pour the 50F onto the70F container is there any difference in temperature of the two half gallons of water ?

The rate that the room will cool is based solely upon the air exchange .... if the fan pushes 100 cfm or air, won't matter a bit (all things being equal) which window has the fan nor which way it blows.   But all things are not equal, even when air temps are the same in shade or sun, the objects ajacent to those windows are not .  

-Windows is facing south .... use fan as exhaust ... sun heats up window surface and surrounding surfaces (sidewalk, porch,  deck, window frame, etc) ... don't want that radiated heat coming in
-Windows is facing north .... use fan as intake .... no sun. no heat radiating surfaces nearby
-When you get sun exposure at different times of day, use according to exposure.

3.  Push / pull data is there if you bother to look for it (Martinsliquidlab) ... based upon his11st round of testing, pull is slightly more effective up to about 1500 rpm (2%)  ... push is more effective above 1750 rpm or so ... in between it's a wash.   It is still radiator specific and in closed loops with lower fpi rads, the difference disappears.  You can guess or use intuition to draw a conclusion as to at what happens with round fans and rectangular rads and try and argue the point, but I think test data trumps all that. I prefer to rely on actual test data .... it speaks for itself and is not subject to interpretation.  

So in your typical AIO situation with hi rpm fans, we can see that despite thoughts about round fans, rectangular rads and air missing the fins, the reality is actual measured test results refute your conclusion .... data trumps intuition every time.






At lower speeds, pull did better
http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/img/FanShroudTest4-25mm1350.png

EDIT:  Took me  while to find:

In other testing Martin found the advantage of pull at low speeds vanished.  Again, change the radiator to one with lower fpi or slow down the fans, both as you would in a custom loop and the advantage may change.  But exhaust fans is primarily a AIO thing ... very rarely seen in custom loops.


4.  What "sensitive components" are you concerned about inside  that are affected by 21-28C temps ?   I have seen no component manual or advisory that says ...." by no means allow you [insert component name here] be exposed to temps 2 - 5C higher than ambient".  You have a radiator cooling your CPU .... apparently you didn't bother to use a radiator for any of those other components ... so if there is a concern , why no WC there ?   I usually have 10 fans blowing thru radiators into my case.  MoBo VRMs are 30-31C, SSDs are 28 and 29C, SSHDs are 27 and 29C ....   What to I have togain from lowering those temps 1-2C when the air coming out of my radiator when I have the entire case volume being exhausted 2-3 times per second ?  It's not as if that exhaust air gets anywhere near most of them.

5.  Let's "do the math" for how we helping out our CPU ... 

Is there really a logical basis in taking your intake air and preheating it with 340 watts (300watt GFX card and 40 watt MoBo) so that you can cool your 125 watt CPU ?   If I want to get rid of 125 watts heat from the CPU, should I add 340 watts to what I am cooling it with ?   You didn't WC the GPU so why the concern about the 125 watt preheated air from the CPU ?   Shouldn't we be more concerned about the 340 watt preheat on CPU cooling air ?     Lets pick 5C just to make the math easy .... concept is same, only size of impact will differ.   The CPU, the only thing in my PC that I took special precautions to cool... should I cool my coolant with 23C outside air or 28C inside air ???

Cooling =  Delta T x Heat Transfer Coefficient (C)
Coolant temp = 33C
Ambient = 23C
Interior case = 28C

Cooling = (33 - 23) x C  .... = 10C for rad fans as intakes
Cooling = (33 - 28) x C  .... = 5C for rad fans as exhausts

So CPU cooling is *twice as effective using outside air in our example*.... kinda explains why the manual page posted above says* "For best cooling performance, we recommend mounting the fans as air intakes into your PC". *  In a case with adequate cooling ... (1) 140mm per 75 - 100 watts (1) 120mm for each 50 - 75 watts, you won't see 5C increase thru the rads.  That's because if you have enough fans, air turnover is high ... with a  substantial amount going out thru the rear grille and slot covers, 1 - 2 C is more typical  .  Still ....  10C delta T using air intakes is 25% better CPU cooling than 8C will provide.

I'm using a MoBo block so it doesn't give a care to ambient temps.  SSDs and SSHDs are right behind front intake fans so none of the rad exhaust gets anywhere near them.   GPU under stress is 40C ...

Im running Furmark now while typing and here's the results with two 270 watt GPUs.   Using (6) temperature sensors, accurate to 0.1C and a 6 channel Reeven Six Eyes digital display.  After 16 minutes of Furmark temp curve is flat

Coolant Temp 420mm Radiator In = 31.6C
Coolant Temp 420mm Radiator Out = 30.9C
Coolant Temp 280mm Radiator In = 31.0C
Coolant Temp 280mm Radiator Out = 30.8C
Ambient Air = 20.2C
Interior Case Temp = 21.1
GPU Temp = 38.0
Pump Speed = 100%
Fan Speed = 100%

So what component should I be concerned about with that huge 0.9 C increase in temp ?  And take note... that test was done with only 5 rad fans, not the push / pull setup I normally use and 3 case fans instead of usual 6 so as to provide a more typical usage.  I'm gonna blow any dust outta the fans so have the pull fans off. 

Now this system was designed using the method described here ... The martin210 is the martinsliquidlab guy who was the source of the fan and radiator data.  The accuracy of the method is borne out by the results ..... designed for 10 delta T C, test results in 10.7C ... and that's with half the fans
https://www.overclock.net/forum/61-water-cooling/1457426-radiator-size-estimator.html

When we are designing plants or kitchens, we don't need to rely on guessing, intuition or trial and error, we use math and just like the car guys, we put outside air thru the rads because it's the most efficient way to cool what is the main concern.... that being the 80C temp of the CPU, not the 31C MoBo VRM, not the 27C SSD or the 29C HD



Tatty_One said:


> The AIO fans are blowing the hot air outside of the case, additionally the 2 x front 140's are blowing cool air onto both GPU (bottom of the 2) and feeding the AIO fans with cool air (top 140), all I can say is it works well, simply because my 6700K @ 4.6gig never goes above the high sixties in heavy gaming and the GPU's temps hit 70 max and it is overclocked too, although it has a very good and quiet cooler..... so for me it works very well.



And that's all it needs to do.   When I sit down and do an OC, I have certain targets, the most challenging is the CPU and that's the only one I get close to.   Mine are :

No CPU cores hit 80C in RoG Real Bench (that usually means 58 - 62C in gaming)
No Vcore settings above 1.400
No Vcore in testing above 1.440 (1.5 under AVX for microsecond bursts OK)
No GPUs above 45C
Delta T of 10C
Noise - completely inaudible

You are apparently hitting all your goals so sit tight .... if you wanted to get lower CPU temps, you could flip the fans and pick up a little bit .... if ya had an extra case fan, blowing in, ya might see less dust in ya system and drop a degree.  But it works .... for most of us, if it ain't broke , don't fix it is a comfortable rule ... for others, us tweaker types, we have fun facing / overcoming the challenge .... So that's why I enjoy figuring it out and making tools for others to use whether in games or in building PCs.    Not that I am about totake on the challenge of finding the next merseine prime number, but what's an old nerd to do w/ their spare time.


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## overvolted (Mar 25, 2019)

robot zombie said:


> As far as GPU temps go, the Strix 2060 cooler is excellent. When utilization/core load actually kicks up to 100, it'll boost to 2010mhz and flatline at 55-60C, where the power limit kicks in. At this point, wattage will go up to around 170w and yet fans don't exceed 60%. Older games don't even tax it hard enough to boost all the way up @ 1080/60, in which cases I can see temperatures between 48 and 52, with wattage maxing at 130ish during the odd times when it does hit 2ghz.



Yes it is! I am very impressed with it. Mine boosts to the same as well even though the boost clock is supposed to be 1900something.
I play far cry 5 multi player all the time and it never breaks 50c with the details maxed. I've pegged as high as 180 watts with it according to gpuz. Not sure if it's a fluke...
Solid board design with the ram far enough away from the VRM to not artifact, and an excellent cooler.
And it looks really cool too.

John Naylor? Where do you get these fan shrouds? I want some.


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 25, 2019)

The only thing I'd change in the OPs picture is eliminating the third fan on the CPU HSF.  Two fans that close together are going to fight each other because of turbulence.  The case fan is adequate to pull the heated air out and by not being ramthroated by that fan almost touching it, it will pull more heat from the VRMs out too.  VRMs are more likely to fail from heat exposure than CPU is.


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## Caring1 (Mar 25, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> …….
> 
> Look at your car ... does the fan push the hot preheated air from the engine compartment out ... or does it pull in the outside air which is invariable cooler ?
> 
> ...


A car is a totally different situation as air is generally forced in during forward travel, also to push the hot air out would require a rear mounted radiator.
But you are welcome to your opinion, just stop forcing it upon everyone.
IMO radiators in a computer should push hot air out, preferably through top mounted radiators, and as there are other fans as intakes there is no increase in internal temps due to the constant flow of incoming cool air, unlike the heated air that you desire pumped in your system through the radiator.


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## delshay (Mar 25, 2019)

Splinterdog said:


> You've all got it wrong. This is how to do it.
> View attachment 119390



If your going down that route, why not integrate a Noctua 200mm fan.


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## Bill_Bright (Mar 25, 2019)

Before this goes further, everyone needs to step back and look at what I objected to. It was John Naylor's "blanket statement" claim in all UPPER CASE letters where he said (my *bold underline* added),





			
				John Naylor said:
			
		

> If there's a radiator on top, rad fans *always* bring air in.  *NO EXCEPTIONS*.


  So as John now sings his different tune with his huge Google based  dissertation, and before  others jump on his bandwagon to argue about which way they think is best, please keep that "absolute" claim of "*always*" and "*NO EXCEPTIONS*" in mind. For that is the point of my argument.



John Naylor said:


> It's not about what I want, it's about mathematics, thermodynamics and using actual test data obtained with accurate measurement capability versus google and intuition.


I never said or implied it was about Google and intuition. But I never said it was about math and thermodynamics either.

But it IS about what you, me, or the user wants, And wants are often influenced by intuition. Do you want the CPU's heat to be pumped back into your case? I don't. Many don't because they know, understand and accept that does not help the VRMs, chipset, air cooled graphics, RAM and other heat sensitive devices that rely on "cool" interior case air for cooling.

Contrary to what many seem to believe and, sadly, what others want us all to believe, "proper" case cooling is NOT _only_ about CPU cooling. "Proper" case cooling is NOT about achieving the absolute lowest CPU temperature possible. *Maybe the radiator maker's "marketing weenies" need to be reminded of that too! *

"Proper" case cooling is about providing EVERYTHING inside the case sufficient cooling to maintain ALL the component's temps comfortably within their normal operating temperature range. All the absolute coolest temp gets you is bragging rights. So if getting your CPU temp down to 20°C instead of 25°C is what you want, then go for it. As I said above, that is fine - as long as you don't ignore your other component's needs.



Caring1 said:


> A car is a totally different situation as air is generally forced in during forward travel


During travel yes. But car radiators fans are useless during travel. In fact, they are not even there to provide cooling during travel and typically power off at that time. They are there to provide air flow when the vehicle is stopped at a red light.

If you have central air conditioning, look at your compressor unit (the one that sits outside). Most look something similar to this. Which way does that top mounted fan blow? It is not down.

Why? Because HVAC and thermaldynamic engineers know they get a better cooling if they draw cool air through the radiator fins instead of pushing hot air through.

Are those different situations? Of course. But they illustrate the exact same principle of thermodynamics as it applies to computer radiators.


John Naylor said:


> using actual test data obtained with accurate measurement capability versus google


LOL Because normal computer users have the proper test equipment. They have accurate probes and know where to place those probes for "ALL" the components inside. They know how to measure with the side panel properly in place. And they know what temps they should be looking for all those components. Why does that matter if they can just Google it since we all know everyone computer is exactly the same, as are all our ambient conditions. 

So let me reiterate my points:

There ARE exceptions and,
Not everyone is seeking the lowest possible "CPU-only" temp.


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## Vario (Mar 25, 2019)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The only thing I'd change in the OPs picture is eliminating the third fan on the CPU HSF.  Two fans that close together are going to fight each other because of turbulence.  The case fan is adequate to pull the heated air out and by not being ramthroated by that fan almost touching it, it will pull more heat from the VRMs out too.  VRMs are more likely to fail from heat exposure than CPU is.


Yep that third fan only contributes negatively.  The rear case exhaust does the same job.  Two fans back to back just results in turbulence.   Might as well just get a shroud if you want that rear case exhaust fan to purely be for the CPU.  Overall he could probably run half the fans and get the exact same temperatures.  The PC case is a sealed environment with a fan at each end.  Too many fans inside inhibit the throughput.


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## John Naylor (Mar 27, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> A car is a totally different situation as air is generally forced in during forward travel, also to push the hot air out would require a rear mounted radiator.
> But you are welcome to your opinion, just stop forcing it upon everyone.
> IMO radiators in a computer should push hot air out, preferably through top mounted radiators, and as there are other fans as intakes there is no increase in internal temps due to the constant flow of incoming cool air, unlike the heated air that you desire pumped in your system through the radiator.



The car thing wasn't my analogy ... it was used to argue against what was stated .... it did the opposite.  Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but not a right to their own facts. 

If you visit forums that focus almost exclusively on water cooling, pushing air out is a foreign concept.  Why do you think Corsair, which I think most would agree is the largest seller of AIOs, states in their instructions "For best performance, install fans as air intakes ?  Why would they purposely tell there customers to "do it wrong" ?  

It is understandable to make a hypothesis aka "learned opinion" on what is what based upon intuition.   It remains an opinion until proved or disproved.  When you test it and get results, it goes from threory to fact.  I see nothing wrong with holding onto that intuitive result until test data says otherwise.    The are two theories in play here:

a)  What cools a CPU better a) outside, presumably cooler air or b) inside the case air where we have lots of things creating heat.
b)  Does putting a radiator in the top of the case, such that you have more air being exhausted from the case by fans than you have coming in thru fans suck hot exhaust air back into the case.

We approached this question as follows:

a)  Rad fans intakes or exhausts 

Equipment (6) temperature sensors (4) for coolant tems / (2) for air temps, each is accurate to 0.1 C
Reeven (6) Channel digital temperature display

Coolant is 0.4C cooler going out of Rad 1 then in.
Coolant is 0.3C cooler going out of Rad 2 then in.
Ambient Air = 21.2C
Interior Case Air = 22.9C 

So the question becomes, do I want to cool my 27C coolant with 21.2C air (Delta T = 5.8) or cool it with 22.9C air (Delta T = 4.1).   Given the applicable formulae, the 21.2C air is going to be 1.42 times more effective in cooling.  This is no more an opinion at this point than saying that the that the MSI 1660 Ti is on average 28% (100/78) faster than the 590 in TPUs gaming test suite.

b)  Is hot exhaust getting sucked back in The 2nd question is a "depends" one as if you have enough intake fans, having the top rad fans will still be less efficient but it will not suck in air thru the rear case grille and vented slot covers if:

1.  You don't have any openings neat your GFX xcard and PSU exhaust (rare)
2.  You have more intake fans air coming in that exhaust fan air going out (also rare)

Today's typical case arrives with :
(2) intakes at front
(1) Exhaust at rear

And that works just fine .... the extra intake air will force excess air not handled by the fans out thru rear grille, vented slot covers and up thru top grille.  Now add a 3 x 120mm on top

Now we have more than twice as much air going out as being pushed in thru fans.... that air has to be made up somewhere.   Assuming the only other fan mount is at bottom that will help bring air in.    So how do we know we know what's what ?  we can use math ... 4 out and 3 in means we still have air being sucked in.  Of we can test it.

Equipment used "Chauvet DJ700 Hurricane Fog machine"

Test / Result (AIO fans as exhaust) ...

-For directed at top of case... blown away
-For directed at sides of case... dissipates
-For directed at bottom of case... case fills with fog at moderate rate
-For directed at front of case... case fills with fog quickly
-For directed at back of case...  case fills with fog at varying degrees depending upon where directed.  when hit with direct exhaust from fan neat top it disipates.  When at PSU or GPU vent its thinned somewhat from exhaust flow but is then is sucked into case.

Test / Result (AIO fans as intake) ...

-For directed at top of case... sucked it very quickly
-For directed at sides of case... dissipates
-For directed at bottom of case... case fills with fog at moderate rate
-For directed at front of case... case fills with fog quickly
-For directed at back of case...  No fog gets in case.   With 6 in and 1 out, air exiting thru the rear case grilles is coming out at a good clip.  Fog is blown briskly away from case venting.




> with his huge Google base dissertation



Right on target Bill. don't use anything associated with google... and don't need search engines when one spent 40+ years doing this for a living do this for a living.  I gave published references .. I gave actual test results.  having seen anything back but unsupported opinion.

I'll will rephrase to address your complaint tho.   Let me 1st another similat direction i saw today... needed a seweing needle and it said "Do not stick in eyes."  That should not be an absolute... tey should change that to 'do not stick in eyes unless you want to.

To foit your criteria "If you want best cooling performance, in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics, logic, manufacturer's recommendations  and actual test results, always put rad fans blowing in.  if you want to purposely make the cooling less efficient, and risk sucking hot air back into the case, install them as intakes.



> Do you want the CPU's heat to be pumped back into your case? I don't. Many don't because they know, understand and accept that does not help the VRMs, chipset, air cooled graphics, RAM and other heat sensitive devices that rely on "cool" interior case air for cooling.



More accurately, Do you want the CPUs 75 watts of heat pushed into your case or do you want your 275 watt GFX card heating up your CPU, VRMS, RAM and other non sensitive components.  Do the math ... what heats up more 275 or 75 ?    If you use the fog machine and  point it at the top intake fans, it's like a typhoon going out the rear grilles.  

Have any sources ?  have any test results ?   How do you explain the manufacturer's recommendations and test results ?  You don't want the 75 watts of heat affecting your "allegedly sensitive components, but are perfectly happy with the 275 GFX card doin excatly that.  The air inside the case is 1.7C hotter than the outside.   Show us where the manufacturers of these sensitive components warns us about this .     If you are so concerned about MoBo VRMs, why didn't you add a MoNo Block ?  If you are so concerned with the sensitive RAM, why no RAM blocks ?   Answer to rhetorical question .... cause they are in no way negatively impacted

This is the age of DDR4 ... show use one manufacturer warming us abut RAM temps ... please explain why air preheated by a 75 watt (125 OCd) CPU is worse than air heated by 275 watt GFX card.   With 1 fan blowing out the back and 3 out the toip, isn't most of the air going up ?   Explain why my MoBo VRM is suffering from that downward flow of 75 watt air and yet remains unaffected by the 275 watts coming up ... where is this component that is sensitive to +2C hot air that gets no where near it.... the air coming down thru the top in the front has 6 intakes and 1 exhaust .... so it's movng very quickly out the rear of that case. 

Compare that when the AIO is used as exhaust and you sucking almost 3/43 of the heat right past it.  Try taking two hair dryers and blow a 75 watt one at your left ear and a 275 watt one at your right ... which ear is going to get uncomfortable 1st ?  Tell us how the SSDs / HDs mounted right behind the front intake fans are affected in any way by the 75 watts coming thu the  rad and and make a hard left out the rear grilles.



> During travel yes. But car radiators fans are useless during travel. In fact, they are not even there to provide cooling during travel and typically power off at that time. They are there to provide air flow when the vehicle is stopped at a red light.



Irrelevant ... No one is worried about air when you're doing 60 mph, the design issue here is stick still in traffic.   The relevant question is do they use outside air or inside air to cool the engine.  the use outside air cause it's 40 degrees cooler.



> If you have central air conditioning, look at your compressor unit (the one that sits outside). Most look something similar to this. Which way does that top mounted fan blow? It is not down.



Read what you just wrote, you proved my argument again ... 

a)  is the fan blowing inside air or outside air ... since the entire unit is outside, thank you
b)  This is consistent with my position.   I have one rad on my case top and one on the bottom.  Your pic looks just like that one.  The fans sit on top and draw **outside** air up thru the fins.
c)  The entire unit is outside... so makes not a hint of a difference thermodynamically ... wanna know why we design compressors with fan on top.... so that when they are serviced we don't have to lift the big giant heavy part ... same reason we don't put a giant hole on the radiatoir so we can put fan on their side to push air thru



> Why? Because HVAC and thermaldynamic engineers know they get a better cooling if they draw cool air through the radiator fins instead of pushing hot air through.



Huh ?  Analogies aren't working too good for you so far   ....  is the compressor's fan using outside air (you did say  it was outside)  ?  ... or is it using air preheated by another compressor 4 times it's size ?   Nope, it's using outside ambient air.  Up or down is irrelevant.   Top rad ... blows down cause **up is  where the "outside air' comes from**  Bottom rad, blows up because again, **because that's where the outside air comes from**.   Simplified ... Outside cool air = good / Inside preheated air = bad.

I have taught college level thermodynamics, fluids and surveying and we never taught that ... 3 states say that I am licensed and qualified to design HVAC systems.  The compressor unit let's say is 30 inches tall, let's forget for a minute why the fan is on top (maintenance) .  Is there some mysterious source of cool air that is being supplied above the slab that us engineers don't know about ? ... odd but I have never supplied an underground chiller to provide a source of  cool air at this location.   In the shade, I have never observed cooler air at ground level than 30" higher.  When in the sun, air close to the slab is a few degrees hotter than the air 30" higher.   The best accurate analogy to your outside compressor to my bottom rad situation would be to install a 120,000 BTU snow melting system inside the concrete slab below the air 30,000 BTU compressor.  Now it's pulling 4 times the amount of preheated hot air thru the fins... juslt like youre AIO.



> LOL Because normal computer users have the proper test equipment. They have accurate probes and know where to place those probes for "ALL" the components inside. They know how to measure with the side panel properly in place. And they know what temps they should be looking for all those components. Why does that matter if they can just Google it since we all know everyone computer is exactly the same, as are all our ambient condition



They do ?   Your saying that normal computer uses hav\be thermal probes, infraed thermometers and fog machines ?    What make and model number ?  Do they read 24/7 ?

Well if you can just google it ... go ahead.  All you have done so far is produce analogies that actually support my position.  You have no "google results" showing any results to the contrary.    Explain why you are not water cooling all these 'sensitive components'    Do the math where it shows that cooling with hot air is better than cooler air.  

And no not every instance is the same as there are too many variables to count.  



> So let me reiterate my points:
> 
> There ARE exceptions and,
> Not everyone is seeking the lowest possible "CPU-only" temp.



Well I agree with No. 1 not in the stated context of this thread .... if you don't care about performance doesn't matter what you do.   But the OP is asking about how to set up fans for .... presumably ...  best performance.  He did ask about solving cooling problems.   If you don't care about optimizing performance, then why ask or answer the question.   Is "I want my CPU to run hotter a 'cooling problem " ?   I didn't think so.  I already addressed this when I said

"You are apparently hitting all your goals so sit tight .... if you wanted to get lower CPU temps, you could flip the fans and pick up a little bit .... if ya had an extra case fan, blowing in, ya might see less dust in ya system and drop a degree.  But it works .... for most of us, if it ain't broke , don't fix it is a comfortable rule ..."

And yes, not everyone is seeking optimal performance... but if not, why would they be reading a topic about "solving cooling problems ?

It all breaks down to this ...

a)  What components is of greatest concern ... generally it's the one that the user added a water cooler to.
b)  Do I want to have my "sensitive components" impacted by heat from a 75 watts (125 OCd) thing that I have right up at the edge of what I am comfortable having.... or do I want to sacrfice a few degrees there and have all those sensitive components impacted by heat from my 275 watt (310 OCd) GFX Card(s).  Looking forward to your list links to these sensitive component manufacturers that explain the risks associated with  22.9C as opposed to 21.2 inside case air temps.


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## Bones (Mar 27, 2019)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Heres an older pic, back when i was running with the X79|3930k. A few changes have been made since but the case is still the same.
> 
> View attachment 119361
> 
> ...



This is how I'd do it but consider pulling air in from the bottom will also draw in dust - Dust naturally settles to the floor or just on any given surface you know and accumilates.

If sitting on a desk it's not a huge deal, if on the floor that could be different in how much dust it picks up and it will draw it in from around the bottom of the case to the intake fan. If you have a screen/filter in place that would help keep it out but also require some occasional maintenance to keep the screen/filter cleaned so air can keep moving through.

At the top air should always be exhausted since heat naturally rises, take advantage of it so cooling is more efficient but I'd have to say "No" to having a rad up there - You'd be using air that's already been heated to try and cool it with and also the risk of a leak going straight down on the components, esp the graphics card and PSU.
You'll always have the risk of a leak with a watercooled system anyway but keeping out from over the components helps to reduce the chance of a leak from directly affecting components underneath.
If the CPU block or lines leaks there isn't alot you can to to mitigate that from happening but if the rad itself springs a leak at least it woudn't be directly over stuff as well.

What I'm getting at is the less of the watercooling system you have over the components the better to help reduce the chance of a drip/leak affecting the system itself in a bad way.

If possible I like having the side(s) and front of the case as intake with the rear and top as exhaust, nothing coming in from the bottom is how I do it.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Mar 27, 2019)

Temps are-
28-34c idle depending of heating being on or off
60 max load


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## lexluthermiester (Mar 27, 2019)

tigger said:


> Temps are-
> 28-34c idle depending of heating being on or off
> 60 max load


That's a decent setup. Positive airflow. Nice.


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## Splinterdog (Mar 27, 2019)

tigger said:


> Temps are-
> 28-34c idle depending of heating being on or off
> 60 max load


I'm about to fit a new all in one water cooler but at the moment have the radiator fans pulling the air in, with the front and rear fans as per your set up.
Is the orientation important for the two rad fans in this respect?
Edit
Ooops! Just noticed that the two top fans aren't rad fans.


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## Komshija (Mar 27, 2019)

So far I had no issues with overheating. OC'ed CPU generally stays below 27°C in the winter during winter and below 32°C during the hottest sumer days. That's for simple tasks like listening to music, watching movies or browsing internet. Motherboard is a few °C hotter, but still under 35°C during winter and under 45 °C during summer.  While stressed, OC'ed CPU stays below 70°C, except during unrealistic stress tests like Prime 95 where it reached 82°C in the summer. GPU stays below 73 °C (summer), and GPU VRM's can reach up to 86°C during heavy gaming and hot summer days. I don't remember exact values and these are approximations based on my previous observances.

Here is an older picture of my cooling setup. All fans spin according to the temperature. Front fans are set to spin slightly faster. All case fans are the same brand and type - Arctic F12 PWM rev.2, 120 mm. CPU cooler fan is 135 mm. PSU has 0 db mode feature and turns on its 135 mm fan only when stressed. So heat is the least of my problems. Dust is much bigger problem, because filters literally got clogged after 3-4 weeks if not cleaned regularly (eg. once or twice a week) and the case fills up with dust pretty fast.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 27, 2019)

Bones said:


> This is how I'd do it but consider pulling air in from the bottom will also draw in dust - Dust naturally settles to the floor or just on any given surface you know and accumilates.
> 
> If sitting on a desk it's not a huge deal, if on the floor that could be different in how much dust it picks up and it will draw it in from around the bottom of the case to the intake fan. If you have a screen/filter in place that would help keep it out but also require some occasional maintenance to keep the screen/filter cleaned so air can keep moving through.
> 
> ...



Its ok. I haff dust filter


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## Caring1 (Mar 27, 2019)

John Naylor said:


> Blah, blah, blah...


FFS Being long winded doesn't make you right either, give everyone a break will you, K.I.S.S.


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## kapone32 (Mar 27, 2019)

I have a total of 19 fans in my setup. I have 2 200 MM fans pulling air into my Thermaltake Core X9. I have 12 140 MM fans on my 2 420 mm Aplhacool radiators. I have 2 140 mm fans pulling air in at the bottom of the case under the MB VRM area. I have an upper and lower exhaust 140 mm fan at the back of the case to exhaust air. My final fan is a 200 mm that I installed on the side to blow cool air across the PCI-E devices.  My NVME drives never go above 45 C. The GPUs (water-cooled) are never above 55 C under load. The key for me was to have the 12 140 mm fans run at the slowest speed and have the 2 200 mm front fans at 70%. I will try to post some pics when I get home but there is always some gaming or web surfing to do


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## Deleted member 67555 (Mar 27, 2019)

newtekie1 said:


> I've got a Fractal Design S with the top vent and side panel vent blocked off.  I've got 2x140mm fans in the front pulling air in through the 280mm AIO radiator, and a single 140mm in the back as an exhaust. The PSU is mounted with the fan pulling cool air from outside the case.
> 
> Under full load the 8700K@4.8GHz stays in the high 60s, with brief peaks up to 75°C.  During games the CPU says around 50°C, and my 1080Ti runs at about 70°C.


 Fractal Design Meshify-C
I have about the same except I have 2x120mm on top for exhaust.
I run a slightly more aggressive OC... Usually stay in the low 60's with the rare exception of 70° for a minute or two.
Nice to see a similar but different setup and what the differences are.


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## Vayra86 (Mar 27, 2019)

Caring1 said:


> I thought it was an episode of The Fast and The Furious



Way too much text. If that were the case you watched a whole trilogy


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## freeagent (Mar 28, 2019)

Two 120x38 Panaflo's running at 7v, excellent flow, low noise until you switch it to 12v, a lot more flow, and noise. Benching only at 12v. I have a 120x25 Fractal fan at the bottom, just for my WD black in the cage. I also have my ssd in there, not that it needs air. I've got a Fractal 140mm from my R4 in the front top slot, not using the factory mounting. Its there mainly as a buffer to direct air into my cooler, as well as to blow on my ram. In the rear, I have a 120x38 DC Centaur running at 12v, nice and quiet, and moves a good amount of air, I think it might be a 24v fan, not sure. Also at the top rear, I have a 120x25 Fractal acting as an exhaust, mainly for when the GPU is loaded. I can stick my finger between the top two fans, I don't feel them working against each other, so for now it can stay like that. Before I had both top fans as intakes, so 5 in 1 out, now I am running 4 in 2 out. Seems to work ok. Its pretty efficient, this GPU can dish out the watts. Forgot about my CPU.. TY143 pushing though, and once the finpack slows it down, I have a TY147A pulling it straight out. They are both on PWM, and spool up as needed using the "Turbo" fan setting. Everything usually sits in the high 20s to low 30s. CPU and GPU temps are dependent on clocks. GPU sits in the high 20s low 30s, loads at about 63-65 when benching, CPU.. depends.. Linpack Extreme will bring it to the high 80s, low 90s @ 4600 1.3v. CPU temps go down quite a bit once I start dropping clocks. Pretty sure it could use a delid, its the hottest CPU I've ever owned. My old H100 just laughed at it.


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