# Intel Core i7-7700K Delidded, Reapplied TIM Reduces Temps By 30C



## P4-630 (Dec 17, 2016)

*Could Intel Have Messed Up TIM Once Again?*
"_So an interesting story just popped up regarding Intel’s upcoming Core i7-7700K processor. A member of the Anandtech Forums has managed to delid the processor and posted some great findings after reapplication of new thermal interface._"

*Intel Core i7-7700K High Temperatures Could Be Caused By Poor TIM – Temps Improve After Delidding*
"_The forum member who goes by the name of “RichUK” managed to acquire a retail sample of the Intel Core i7 7700K processor. Several overclock runs were posted and the user went as far to delid the chip and apply new TIM (Thermal Interface Material). The results are shocking as it may proof that Intel has once again used poor quality TIM on their processors.

The issue with high temps on Intel processors arose back in the Ivy Bridge generation where the chips were heating up beyond a certain limit. The heat build up would affect overclocks and would result in poor stability. The issue was fixed when Intel started using higher quality packaging materials and improved TIM in the new Devil’s Canyon (Haswell Refresh) lineup. The last three generations of Intel processors haven’t seen issues related to heating but the issue might be returning.http://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/...-Lake-vs-Core-i7-6700K-Skylake_Processors.jpg

Several tech sites have already published reviews of the Core i7-7700K prior to the chip’s launch. All sites report higher temperatures for the Kaby Lake part compared to Skylake chips. One reason for that is due to the fact that Kaby Lake ships with higher clock speeds and boards (Z170) are not optimized with voltage ratings of the new processors as seen in Expreview’s review. But the other reason could very well be the application of poor TIM between the CPU die and the IHS (Internal Heat Spreader). More performance leaks can be seen here, here and here._"

*Intel Core i7-7700K Delidded and Tested (Before and After Results)*
"_RichUK started off the testing by acquiring his brand new Core i7-7700K processor. This is a retail chip and not an engineering sample. If the issue was on an ES chip, we could have blamed the early sample for being the reason but all tech sites that have covered the reviews got the retail chip for testing. The system used for test is listed below:
_

_Processor – Core i7-7700k_
_Mobo – Asrock Z170 Pro4S – BIOS v7_
_RAM – Corsair 2x8GB 3000Mhz C15_
_GFX – EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SC_
_Cooling Stock – an old Thermalright 6 heat pipe tower, Corsair SP120_
_Cooling for OC – Corsair H110i with 2 x Corsair ML140 Pro LED_"
*Intel Core i7-7700K Stock With Thermalright Cooler:*
"_On the first day, the user tested the chip in Cinebench R15 at stock settings. The temps during the test were stable around 60C. This testing was achieved with a Thermalright Ultra 120 tower cooler._"

*Intel Core i7-7700K OC With Corsair H110i:*
"_The moment the chip was overclocked to 5 GHz (1.34V) and tested through IBT and OCCT, the temps spiked. During Prime 95 test, the maximum reported temperature was 96C. The chip was stable for 15 minutes in Prime 95 v27.9. The chip passed through 6 hours of stability in Prime95 Small FFTs at 4.7 GHz (1.264V) with temps averaging around 83C. Cooling used was a Corsair H110i set to quite mode.
The chip was tested through several benchmarks including Cinebench R15 at the stable clock speeds of 4.7 GHz._"

*Intel Core i7-7700K OC With Kraken X62 and Delid:*
"_After the CPU was successfully delidded and applied with CoolLaboratory Liquid Ultra thermal paste and put under a Kraken X62 cooler, the chip was once again tested at 5 GHz (1.344V). With the fan operating at 50% and pump operational at 65% (silent mode), the chip reported a decrease of up to 30 degrees Celsius. On average, the chip was around 26C cooler than before delid.

The user reports that previously, the chip would shoot up to 99C but now it was averaging around 66C in Prime 95 v28.7. Furthermore, it was stable while before, it wasn’t as much.

The results show that new TIM application and delid improves the temps by a great margin. Delidding generally improves the temps but we don’t see such decreases so it is possible that the higher temps on Kaby Lake CPUs could be related to the low quality TIM used. We won’t say that it’s entirely to be blamed on TIM as the chips also ship with higher clock speeds over Skylake but this is a really interesting find by RichUK._"

http://wccftech.com/intel-core-i7-7700k-delid-performance-tests/


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## Kissamies (Dec 17, 2016)

And one another stupid thing is that the IHS is physically different, so I guess it can't be popped with the Ivy->Skylake delid tools.


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## Folterknecht (Dec 17, 2016)

Same happend to StullenAndi from hardwareluxx.de ... ~25K improvement after delidding.


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## Ferrum Master (Dec 17, 2016)

This is actually a sad thing for such a pricey item...


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## P4-630 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ferrum Master said:


> This is actually a sad thing for such a pricey item...



Yes it is , I don't get it why intel doesn't use quality TIM under it, especially on the more expensive chips.


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## KainXS (Dec 17, 2016)

ehhh they did it again, Intel never learns do they.


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## JalleR (Dec 17, 2016)

that is just sad, but maybe that is how they will beat ZEN when it is launched by adding better cooling paste and running higher clocks.  LOL  

Funny that on the Extrem models it is good.


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## infrared (Dec 17, 2016)

This is bullcrap. I really really hope Zen hurts intel big time for ripping off their customers while being lazy and cheap with their manufacturing. Hopefully this is the wakeup call they need!

I had to de-lid my 6700k on day 1 because temps were atrocious. Looks like the 7700k is even worse in that respect


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## alucasa (Dec 17, 2016)

There is no excuse really. Intel had virtually no improvements for Kaby lake, so they had nothing to do. Yet they still cheap out on TIM?

Do they take customers for granted? If so, it's time that they are taught a lesson in Zen.

I have no temp issue with my i7-6700 though.


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## cadaveca (Dec 17, 2016)

alucasa said:


> I have no temp issue with my i7-6700 though.


That kind of the point. Yes, changing TIM can lower temps. But the chips work just fine as is, and are actually likely to live a bit longer since they will throttle before they damage themselves. Change TIM, and then the CPU can seem to run cool, but can then consume so much current you can kill it easily.

People seem to forget that the CPU cores are but a small part of today's modern CPUs and those other parts.. don't report temperatures. It's like you all think Intel, that makes billions, is either dumb, or purposefully releasing stuff of lower quality just to be a bunch of jerks... 

BTW, I have 7700K, 7700, 7600K, 7350K. They are nice chips, if you aren't having unrealistic expectations for them.

Also, my chips appear to be retail as well, but they aren't really retail version. You cannot get retail version of CPU that isn't in retail... 

I tell people when the question comes up, stay to 1.325V. Here is a user, pushing higher, and overheating? ROFL. NOT surprised.


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## cdawall (Dec 17, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> I tell people when the question comes up, stay to 1.325V. Here is a user, pushing higher, and overheating? ROFL. NOT surprised.



I mean to be fair if he is shooting for a maximum,  voltage recommendations are all a joke


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## infrared (Dec 17, 2016)

@cadaveca  Sorry, I don't accept that it's ok to use crappy TIM on £300+ K series processors. It's a corner that doesn't need to be cut. They're already over-charging for the processors int he first place, due to lack of competition, they could at least cook us up a decent product.


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## cdawall (Dec 17, 2016)

infrared said:


> @cadaveca  Sorry, I don't accept that it's ok to use crappy TIM on £300+ K series processors. It's a corner that doesn't need to be cut.



Welcome to buying a midrange cpu. Unluckily this is the same argument as GP104 not being a midrange product. They both fall squarely into the "mainstream" category. Hence why there are models above them.


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## infrared (Dec 17, 2016)

cdawall said:


> Welcome to buying a midrange cpu. Unluckily this is the same argument as GP104 not being a midrange product. They both fall squarely into the "mainstream" category. Hence why there are models above them.


Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## alucasa (Dec 17, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> That kind of the point. Yes, changing TIM can lower temps. But the chips work just fine as is, and are actually likely to live a bit longer since they will throttle before they damage themselves. Change TIM, and then the CPU can seem to run cool, but can then consume so much current you can kill it easily.
> 
> People seem to forget that the CPU cores are but a small part of today's modern CPUs and those other parts.. don't report temperatures. It's like you all think Intel, that makes billions, is either dumb, or purposefully releasing stuff of lower quality just to be a bunch of jerks...
> 
> ...



Your point is valid for non-K versions. If they did cheap out on K-version, that's a whole different story. Those K-versions are meant to be pushed.

Otherwise, you are right on.


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## cdawall (Dec 17, 2016)

infrared said:


> Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



I would be upset that they are an overpriced mainstream product.


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## cadaveca (Dec 17, 2016)

alucasa said:


> Your point is valid for non-K versions. If they did cheap out on K-version, that's a whole different story. Those K-versions are meant to be pushed.
> 
> Otherwise, you are right on.


Every CPU is made to handle a specific amount of power. It's rated by that, in fact. "K" CPUs have higher limits than "non-K" CPUs already. That added limit is how much MORE you are supposed to be able to push it (65W - 91W = nearly 50% boost). If you want more... look at a different product.



infrared said:


> @cadaveca  Sorry, I don't accept that it's ok to use crappy TIM on £300+ K series processors. It's a corner that doesn't need to be cut. They're already over-charging for the processors in the first place, due to lack of competition, they could at least cook us up a decent product.


It's not crappy TIM. It is designed purposefully so that should power drawn exceed a specific value, the CPU will overheat, and then throttle, protecting itself. Yes, this does mean it might run "hotter" than it needs to, so that throttle can be triggered at the right point. Change the TIM< you change where that throttle point occurs, and thereby put yopur expensive CPU at risk. CPU cache, which actually produces the most heat, doesn't report temperatures.

I'll say, I don't pay for my hardware, so maybe that lets me see things as they are, rather than wanting more than I am supposed to get for my dollar. If you don't like it, then simply don't buy it.

I'm going to leave this topic now though, and I'll have more to say in the review.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Dec 17, 2016)

I thought it was figured out awhile ago it's not about TIM. It's about the tiny gap made by the epoxy.


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## R-T-B (Dec 17, 2016)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> I thought it was figured out awhile ago it's not about TIM. It's about the tiny gap made by the epoxy.



I have reapplied the epoxy in my delids, and I still get better thermals.


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## Hood (Dec 17, 2016)

It's not clear whether the CPU mentioned is running naked or only had the TIM changed and the heat spreader re-installed.  The 30c drop in temps sounds like he's running a naked die, with it's high risk of breakage...


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## Kissamies (Dec 17, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> That kind of the point. Yes, changing TIM can lower temps. But the chips work just fine as is, and are actually likely to live a bit longer since they will throttle before they damage themselves. Change TIM, and then the CPU can seem to run cool, but can then consume so much current you can kill it easily.
> 
> People seem to forget that the CPU cores are but a small part of today's modern CPUs and those other parts.. don't report temperatures. It's like you all think Intel, that makes billions, is either dumb, or purposefully releasing stuff of lower quality just to be a bunch of jerks...
> 
> ...


Yep, these locked Skylakes are cool as hell (well, that sounds kinda strange.. ), my dualcore G4400 runs under 30C idle and ~50C under load, all case fans at 5V and cooler's (Thermalright Macho Direct) fan is about ~280rpm..

It's just hard to decide do I get a 7350K or 7600K later at spring.. 

e: btw, is there still that 0.06mm gap between the die and IHS like they had on some previous CPUs?


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## Folterknecht (Dec 17, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> Also, my chips appear to be retail as well, but they aren't really retail version. You cannot get retail version of CPU that isn't in retail...
> 
> I tell people when the question comes up, stay to 1.325V. Here is a user, pushing higher, and overheating? ROFL. NOT surprised.



Retail chips

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/communit...gewechseltem-tim-891243-338.html#post25150844


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## infrared (Dec 17, 2016)

Hood said:


> It's not clear whether the CPU mentioned is running naked or only had the TIM changed and the heat spreader re-installed.  The 30c drop in temps sounds like he's running a naked die, with it's high risk of breakage...


Hmm, it's hard to say, the difference between running with and without a heat spreader on a die this small is negligable. I didn't see a temperature drop going from 'with IHS' to without. Could be dependent on heatsink/wb design though, it's a much smaller area you're trying to move the heat from which negates the benefit of having less thermal resistance.

Edit: 'with IHS' above is already with de-lid with CLU btw. I saw a 20c drop doing initial de-lid.


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## Recon-UK (Dec 17, 2016)

M<eh.


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## Vario (Dec 17, 2016)

Thing is, temps might decrease but the performance is pretty much the same post delid. Maybe you will get 100 mhz more out of it, but even that won't really be noticeable.


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## Lionheart (Dec 17, 2016)

Screw you Intel stop cheaping out on TIM, I was going to get this boring predictable chip due to the high overclocking support but only if you used better TIM, my i5 will do till Zen I guess.


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## Recon-UK (Dec 17, 2016)

No point to this launch anyway LMFAO.

Lazy because of TIM?? it's the same CPU as Skylake repackaged.


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## Easy Rhino (Dec 17, 2016)

ITT: people who are not engineers.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Dec 17, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I have reapplied the epoxy in my delids, and I still get better thermals.


If you use better paste you'll get a benefit beyond just the gap decrease of course. I'd also guess your epoxy didn't make as large a gap as the stock application because Intel makes sure that gap is there intentionally to protect the core from hefty coolers.


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## Kissamies (Dec 18, 2016)

Vario said:


> Thing is, temps might decrease but the performance is pretty much the same post delid. Maybe you will get 100 mhz more out of it, but even that won't really be noticeable.


And the lower temps lead to lower noise produced by cooling fans, higher OC isn't the only benefit of delidding.


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## phanbuey (Dec 18, 2016)

Vario said:


> Thing is, temps might decrease but the performance is pretty much the same post delid. Maybe you will get 100 mhz more out of it, but even that won't really be noticeable.


 
true but you do get a quiter system with less chance of throttle...


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## Vario (Dec 18, 2016)

IDK, not a big fan of delid, makes it harder to resell the chip too.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Dec 18, 2016)

really now, Intel trying to showing it makes bad design and implementations just like AMD did before.


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## Kissamies (Dec 18, 2016)

Vario said:


> IDK, not a big fan of delid, makes it harder to resell the chip too.


Here in Finland some people (including me) are just happy if buying a used chip and it's already delidded. Ofc if selling to a "normal user" who doesn't oc or anything, that can decrease the resell value.


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## Folterknecht (Dec 19, 2016)

9700 Pro said:


> Here in Finland some people (including me) are just happy if buying a used chip and it's already delidded. Ofc if selling to a "normal user" who doesn't oc or anything, that can decrease the resell value.



Germany is the same - you just have to sell the CPU in enthusiast forums. On eBay you might end up with less money in 50% of the cases.


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## Kissamies (Dec 19, 2016)

Folterknecht said:


> Germany is the same - you just have to sell the CPU in enthusiast forums. On eBay you might end up with less money in 50% of the cases.


And that's where I buy and sell PC parts.


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## Enterprise24 (Dec 19, 2016)

5.3-5.4Ghz at 1.5V and I may consider it. I see all review hit 5Ghz at just around 1.3V 
Temp is not issue for me. I will delid it anyway if it can run.


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## Kissamies (Dec 19, 2016)

Enterprise24 said:


> 5.3-5.4Ghz at 1.5V and I may consider it. I see all review hit 5Ghz at just around 1.3V
> Temp is not issue for me. I will delid it anyway if it can run.


I'm hoping for 5GHz too, since I didn't hit it with SB..


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## trog100 (Dec 19, 2016)

properly applied no paste is that bad.. to get a 30C difference its not the paste used.. its the fact that the things are poorly assembled in the first place.. poor contact between the chip and the lid relying on too much paste to fill the gap.. a dollop of paste and a dollop of glue and press together.. good enough to do the job but nowhere near as good as it could be.. some will be better than others..

trog


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## Enterprise24 (Dec 19, 2016)

9700 Pro said:


> I'm hoping for 5GHz too, since I didn't hit it with SB..



My previous 2500K and 2600K hit 5Ghz at 1.5V but I feel uncomfortable at that time so I leave it at 4.5-4.8Ghz. Hope you get what you want.


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## Kissamies (Dec 19, 2016)

Enterprise24 said:


> My previous 2500K and 2600K hit 5Ghz at 1.5V but I feel uncomfortable at that time so I leave it at 4.5-4.8Ghz. Hope you get what you want.


Thanks.  I had 2500K @ 4.8GHz 1.48V, but my MB wasn't that great, so I didn't want to kill its VRM


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## peche (Dec 19, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I have reapplied the epoxy in my delids, and I still get better thermals.


i need to know moar please


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## R-T-B (Dec 19, 2016)

peche said:


> i need to know moar please



About 12-15C difference between stock intel paste and thermal grizzly kryonaut.

Not much more to tell.  Skylake is easy with a razer blade and patience...  and that's coming from a guy with a world class fucked up arm.


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## peche (Dec 19, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> About 12-15C difference between stock intel paste and thermal grizzly kryonaut.
> 
> Not much more to tell.  Skylake is easy with a razer blade and patience...  and that's coming from a guy with a world class fucked up arm.


what do you use for glue in back the IHS ?


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## Papahyooie (Dec 19, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> Every CPU is made to handle a specific amount of power. It's rated by that, in fact. "K" CPUs have higher limits than "non-K" CPUs already. That added limit is how much MORE you are supposed to be able to push it (65W - 91W = nearly 50% boost). If you want more... look at a different product.
> 
> 
> It's not crappy TIM. It is designed purposefully so that should power drawn exceed a specific value, the CPU will overheat, and then throttle, protecting itself. Yes, this does mean it might run "hotter" than it needs to, so that throttle can be triggered at the right point. Change the TIM< you change where that throttle point occurs, and thereby put yopur expensive CPU at risk. CPU cache, which actually produces the most heat, doesn't report temperatures.
> ...



That doesn't even make any sense... You're saying that the CPU is *meant* to heat up so that it will throttle to protect itself... when if it never hit that temp to begin with, it wouldn't *need* to throttle to protect itself. I understand that other parts of the CPU generate heat and don't report temps, but you're basically saying that pulling heat away from the chip is bad for it, Because it needs to throttle when it heats up and it won't throttle if it doesn't heat up. 

Some massively circular logic happening here.


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## Mr.Scott (Dec 19, 2016)

peche said:


> what do you use for glue in back the IHS ?


I use Permatex Ultra Black RTV.


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## phanbuey (Dec 19, 2016)

I'm going to try the bare die on my 6700K today and let the pressure from the block hold the chip in socket.  trying to find some standoffs to put on the pcb corners to keep it from snapping... that pcb is super thin.


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## infrared (Dec 19, 2016)

@phanbuey  I don't know if you'll be able to find anything similar in the states, I found a metal spacer from aquacomputer.de which works great. 

Also, you might find the same issue as me.. the corners of the socket were raised and stopping the block making good contact with the cpu, you can trim them carefully with a scalpel or razor blade (being careful not to slip and cut a load of traces!, or bending a load of pins), then it works perfectly


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## peche (Dec 19, 2016)

Mr.Scott said:


> I use Permatex Ultra Black RTV.


gotta search something to glue back my processor


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## phanbuey (Dec 19, 2016)

infrared said:


> @phanbuey  I don't know if you'll be able to find anything similar in the states, I found a metal spacer from aquacomputer.de which works great.
> 
> Also, you might find the same issue as me.. the corners of the socket were raised and stopping the block making good contact with the cpu, you can trim them carefully with a scalpel or razor blade (being careful not to slip and cut a load of traces!, or bending a load of pins), then it works perfectly



ooh thanks for the heads up... ill check it out.


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## R-T-B (Dec 19, 2016)

peche said:


> what do you use for glue in back the IHS ?



believe it or not, NAPA brand black RTV sealant.  It's a rebrand of ultra black permatex if you don't have a NAPA store around.  Generally automotive type places have it.

EDIT:  Mr. Scott beat me to it.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Dec 19, 2016)

Jesus christ people still have their panties in a wad over this? Get over it you care bears.


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## biffzinker (Dec 19, 2016)

infrared said:


> @phanbuey  I don't know if you'll be able to find anything similar in the states, I found a metal spacer from aquacomputer.de which works great.
> 
> Also, you might find the same issue as me.. the corners of the socket were raised and stopping the block making good contact with the cpu, you can trim them carefully with a scalpel or razor blade (being careful not to slip and cut a load of traces!, or bending a load of pins), then it works perfectly


I ran into that same issue myself with the heatsink base. I was using easily compressible foam pads (4 pads in each corner similar to a Athlon XP) to prevent wobble/die corners from getting crunched.


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## Mr.Scott (Dec 20, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> believe it or not, NAPA brand black RTV sealant.  It's a rebrand of ultra black permatex if you don't have a NAPA store around.  Generally automotive type places have it.
> 
> EDIT:  Mr. Scott beat me to it.


I actually use the NAPA brand. lol
It's exactly the same stuff. I just used the known brand name here.


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## R-T-B (Dec 20, 2016)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Jesus christ people still have their panties in a wad over this? Get over it you care bears.



Wow, does customer feedback seriously offend you, or something?


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## Mussels (Dec 20, 2016)

i had a 30C drop delidding my 3770k.
My brother got a 6700K and he's pissed that with 50W less, it runs so much hotter than my chip - whats the use of a K series chip if its artificially limited?



R-T-B said:


> Wow, does customer feedback seriously offend you, or something?



his name is phenom,  he's clearly biased 
(and he secretly works for intel applying TIM to CPU dies)


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## MxPhenom 216 (Dec 20, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Wow, does customer feedback seriously offend you, or something?



How long has this been going on 3 years? and not a single person attempts to fully understand intels engineers reasoning behind it, other than Cadaveca.


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## R-T-B (Dec 20, 2016)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> How long has this been going on 3 years? and not a single person attempts to fully understand intels engineers reasoning behind it, other than Cadaveca.



Which was pretty quickly debunked with basic physics as not being good reasoning.

Plus, if what he said was true, these delidded overclock chips would be exploding left and right.  They aren't.


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## phanbuey (Dec 20, 2016)

i cant get the bare core to post for the life of me... damn 1151 pressure sensor.

Edit ... got ijt to post but the cardstock was too thick and the core wasnt making good contact...

fML

might have to put the ihs back that pressure sensor is kicking my ass.


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## peche (Dec 20, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> believe it or not, NAPA brand black RTV sealant.  It's a rebrand of ultra black permatex if you don't have a NAPA store around.  Generally automotive type places have it.
> 
> EDIT:  Mr. Scott beat me to it.


great, ill have to order online, i was thinking to use arctic alumina epoxi, what do you think about it?



Mussels said:


> i had a 30C drop delidding my 3770k.


i got something similar on my non "K", used to heat a lot,


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## hat (Dec 20, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> That kind of the point. Yes, changing TIM can lower temps. But the chips work just fine as is, and are actually likely to live a bit longer since they will throttle before they damage themselves. Change TIM, and then the CPU can seem to run cool, but can then consume so much current you can kill it easily.
> 
> People seem to forget that the CPU cores are but a small part of today's modern CPUs and those other parts.. don't report temperatures. It's like you all think Intel, that makes billions, is either dumb, or purposefully releasing stuff of lower quality just to be a bunch of jerks...
> 
> ...



In other words... they made a CPU that possibly can't handle normal operation, so they're going to artificially hold back its capabilities by making it run so hot it throttles itself down so it won't break. That's like buying a Ferrari capable of 200MPH, but they put a tiny ass rad in it that causes it to overheat after you hit 40MPH because some other components might not be able to handle what the car should be capable of.

To your theory of other parts of the CPU that don't report temperatures... I could see that, maybe, if you did delid, applied better paste, and did some extreme OC where your core temps are still okay but some other components might not be. I somehow doubt that though, because it's not like if you delid and repaste ONLY your core temps are going to drop... everything will run cooler, not just the core.

So yes, I DO think they're releasing stuff of lower quality... but "just to be a bunch of jerks" is only part of it. I think it's also because they're currently so far ahead of AMD in this area they have no reason to do any better. They know whatever crap they turn out is still going to be much better than AMD, so we're going to buy it, therefore they can get away with it. And for the part about being a bunch of jerks, just take a look at overclocking. Ever since Sandy Bridge, you had to buy the K series chip along with the P/Z series motherboard to enable overclocking. Sandy and Ivy allowed you to overclock somewhat (+400) if you had a P/Z series board, but none at all if you had the cheaper H series board. And then, some manufacturers decided to allow overclocking on H boards anyway, but Intel slapped them and forced them to remove that option on those boards. Not only that, but they removed the minimal overclocking allowance we had with the non-K chips since Haswell. Now you HAVE to buy the Z series board and the K chip or you get no overclocking... so yeah, i DO think they're being a bunch of jerks, saving money and forcing customers to spend more for the product they want, because they can. There's no competition for customers to consider if they want performance and efficiency, so Intel can do as they please and still get customers.


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## Mussels (Dec 20, 2016)

they're doing it because it saves money, with a side benefit of 'oh crap the 5 year old 2500k/2600k overclocked still keeps up with our current hardware' and want to avoid a repeat where older overclocked chips are such good performers, people dont bother upgrading.


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## phanbuey (Dec 21, 2016)

well... i can safely say that my attempt at running without the ihs ended it total failure, after i ended up snapping a pin off the mobo :S


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## Mr.Scott (Dec 21, 2016)

peche said:


> great, ill have to order online, i was thinking to use arctic alumina epoxi, what do you think about it?


Too permanent.
You'll never get that IHS off ever again.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 21, 2016)

peche said:


> gotta search something to glue back my processor



Get black silicone gasket sealer, couple bucks at an auto parts store.




phanbuey said:


> well... i can safely say that my attempt at running without the ihs ended it total failure, after i ended up snapping a pin off the mobo :S



That's hardcore!


----------



## nomdeplume (Dec 21, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Skylake is easy with a razer blade and patience...  and that's coming from a guy with a world class fucked up arm.



That little stroll down memory lane, twice, was good for an unexpected laugh.  Better thermal paste than a razor blade any day.


----------



## peche (Dec 21, 2016)

Mr.Scott said:


> Too permanent.
> You'll never get that IHS off ever again.


but, its necessary to take it out again? i was thinking in that product cause if you already delid, dont have to repaste since liquid metal its not degradating over the time and needs no re-application 



thesmokingman said:


> Get black silicone gasket sealer, couple bucks at an auto parts store.


you just provide today's idea, i have shit loads of Black RTV silicone, also Gasket maker too

Regards,


----------



## Mussels (Dec 22, 2016)

peche said:


> but, its necessary to take it out again? i was thinking in that product cause if you already delid, dont have to repaste since liquid metal its not degradating over the time and needs no re-application
> 
> 
> you just provide today's idea, i have shit loads of Black RTV silicone, also Gasket maker too
> ...



if something went wrong, you'll want to remove it. when i used MX4 on die, it ran within a week and needed to be re-done.


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 22, 2016)

hat said:


> In other words... they made a CPU that possibly can't handle normal operation, so they're going to artificially hold back its capabilities by making it run so hot it throttles itself down so it won't break. That's like buying a Ferrari capable of 200MPH, but they put a tiny ass rad in it that causes it to overheat after you hit 40MPH because some other components might not be able to handle what the car should be capable of.



That's what happens when you want them to warranty OC. It's not like an extra 200 MHz is going to matter anyway, unless you need the bragging rights. Why would they bother supporting the egoist? 

People want chips they can OC, but don't blow up. So that's what we've got. I see no problem in that since I watched it slowly happen over the years, the whole time complaining about those focused on OC. So much so that I don't even put OC in my reviews. Go complain in their faces, not mine. ROFL. I didn't make it this way, they did.


----------



## phanbuey (Dec 22, 2016)

I think OC'ing  is almost more fun than actually using it... i even like OCing really bad chips - i might be compulsive or whatever, but my favore chips were the sempron back in the old days and the e4300 when it came out.

I don't know... i might just like torturing hardware.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 22, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> That's what happens when you want them to warranty OC.



I don't think anyone is arguing they should warranty OC.  I wouldn't even be against a Mhz checking "efuse" (there may even already be such a thing, dunno).

But they are marketing the k-series to OC'ers.  That's plain as day.

Also, I have yet to blow up my Skylake via delidding...  nor have I ever heard of such an occurrence. Not sure what that's all about.


----------



## Mussels (Dec 22, 2016)

K chips should be soldered, or with a seperate IHS in the first place.


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 22, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Also, I have yet to blow up my Skylake via delidding...  nor have I ever heard of such an occurrence. Not sure what that's all about.



https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/810965300040515584


----------



## Folterknecht (Dec 22, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/810965300040515584



Sorry Dave but LTT are morons when is comes to delidding - have you seen that video the cobbled together about delidding? It's pure BS ... let me see if I can find it

edit here you go:


----------



## Mussels (Dec 22, 2016)

did he really do the test with the stock cooler on auto fan speed with the BIOS?

those of us seeing 30C drops because we dont skip half the damn steps and do logical testing disagree with that donkey -.-


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 22, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/810965300040515584



Oh heck, I've even failed a delidding once.  I meant post-delidding.


----------



## thesmokingman (Dec 22, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> https://twitter.com/LinusTech/status/810965300040515584



Sounds about right, epic fail!

"Pretty sure everyone has access to the twitter account."


----------



## Papahyooie (Dec 22, 2016)

Regardless of the outcome, the idea that they're artificially putting bad heat paste to MAKE the chip heat up in order to protect it is ridiculous... 

"If you drink too much bleach, it will kill you by shutting down your kidneys, so lets make sure you drink just a little bleach so that it only tears apart your stomach, so you won't drink more bleach and die. "

How about drinking no bleach at all?


----------



## alucasa (Dec 22, 2016)

Papahyooie said:


> "If you drink too much bleach, it will kill you by shutting down your kidneys, so lets make sure you drink just a little bleach so that it only tears apart your stomach, so you won't drink more bleach and die. "
> 
> How about drinking no bleach at all?



That wouldn't make us humans. We do stupid things.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 22, 2016)

Papahyooie said:


> How about drinking no bleach at all?



Then we wouldn't have games like this:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/427730/


----------



## Papahyooie (Dec 22, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Then we wouldn't have games like this:
> 
> http://store.steampowered.com/app/427730/



I saw Dunky's video on that game. Hilarious.


----------



## yotano211 (Dec 22, 2016)

Folterknecht said:


> Sorry Dave but LTT are morons when is comes to delidding - have you seen that video the cobbled together about delidding? It's pure BS ... let me see if I can find it
> 
> edit here you go:


The idiot Linus didnt even do it correctly. He even said that people put liquid paste on the die so he decided to put some junk paste. 

Strange I purchased a 6700k for my laptop, I delided myself for the very first time and got a 16C drop at 4.3 overclock using liquid ultra. And I bought a already delidded cpu from a buyer on here and got the same temperatures of the store bought processor. I had to put the TIM and bonding paste also. 

Linus you're an idiot.


----------



## puma99dk| (Dec 22, 2016)

this just make me wonder if it's worth to delid my i7-6700k...


----------



## peche (Dec 22, 2016)

puma99dk| said:


> this just make me wonder if it's worth to delid my i7-6700k...


it is go ahead


----------



## puma99dk| (Dec 22, 2016)

peche said:


> it is go ahead



Still a little nervous doing that to a $370 cpu


----------



## Kissamies (Dec 22, 2016)

I want a 7600K NOW!


----------



## cadaveca (Dec 23, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> Oh heck, I've even failed a delidding once.  I meant post-delidding.


Seriously, I see no problem in doing a de-lid. I just don't recommend it. While the temp drop is nice, I see it as more hassle than it is worth. Clock it till it pops, have tuning plan already bought, and when it dies, get a new one. If it made a 500 MHz difference every time, then I might have a different attitude, but it doesn't, so I'd rather have a warranty.



9700 Pro said:


> I want a 7600K NOW!


I hate to ask, but why, exactly?


----------



## phanbuey (Dec 23, 2016)

puma99dk| said:


> Still a little nervous doing that to a $370 cpu


The cpu is super durable... its the shitty little mobo pins that are delicate.

just go slow and use a razor and the lit pops off.


----------



## Kissamies (Dec 23, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> I hate to ask, but why, exactly?



This locked Pentium SUCKS!


----------



## biffzinker (Dec 23, 2016)

9700 Pro said:


> This locked Pentium SUCKS!


To bad it's not the supposed Kaby Lake Pentium with Hyper-Threading.


----------



## Kissamies (Dec 23, 2016)

biffzinker said:


> To bad it's not the supposed Kaby Lake Pentium with Hyper-Threading.


Yep, this is just a temporary solution.


----------



## yotano211 (Dec 23, 2016)

puma99dk| said:


> Still a little nervous doing that to a $370 cpu


If you are that nervous I wouldn't do it. Just undervolt that skylake and enjoy lower temps. 

Not not buy a used dual core processor from craigslist and practice on that. I've heard some people tried it that way.


----------



## peche (Dec 23, 2016)

puma99dk| said:


> Still a little nervous doing that to a $370 cpu


come un, just sit on a chair, be sure to stay on a cool area, take a razor blade, start delidding, be patient, there is people like @9700 Pro that wants a new i5 for delid!



yotano211 said:


> If you are that nervous I wouldn't do it. Just undervolt that skylake and enjoy lower temps.
> 
> Not not buy a used dual core processor from craigslist and practice on that. I've heard some people tried it that way.


great points there! nice advise


----------



## Papahyooie (Dec 23, 2016)

I never have even considered delidding a processor before myself... I might have to do it after reading this thread. My i5 4690 wont crunch at even 75% no matter what I do, even at stock clocks.  Probably a long shot, but maybe dropping the temps would help.


----------



## peche (Dec 23, 2016)

Papahyooie said:


> I never have even considered delidding a processor before myself... I might have to do it after reading this thread. My i5 4690 wont crunch at even 75% no matter what I do, even at stock clocks.  Probably a long shot, but maybe dropping the temps would help.


my locked i7 drop like 18 c at idle, now idles at 25-29 and a notable drop of almost 30-35c at full load, now my max temp is 55, so consider delid as an option for thermal efficiency with your loved one!

i might advise that its a funny exciting process that takes like 5 mins or less, the cleaning process should be deep cause the thermal crap intel added its pretty sticky and the glue on the IHS its pretty solid sometimes, if the processor its new delid will be easy, if its used. thermal cycles may harden the glue a little moar

Regards,


----------



## Kissamies (Dec 23, 2016)

peche said:


> come un, just sit on a chair, be sure to stay on a cool area, take a razor blade, start delidding, be patient, there is people like @9700 Pro that wants a new i5 for delid!
> 
> 
> great points there! nice advise


7600K IS going to meet a razor blade!


----------



## Folterknecht (Dec 23, 2016)




----------



## peche (Dec 23, 2016)

well interesting the quite excellent job on that video, also the part he glues back IHS makes me try again the delid on mine, and glue that bitch back !

Regards,


----------



## biffzinker (Dec 23, 2016)

Even the Broadwell-E/Haswell-E CPUs show a minor to slight temperature drop.


----------



## peche (Dec 23, 2016)

biffzinker said:


> Even the Broadwell-E/Haswell-E CPUs show a minor to slight temperature drop.


well i dont see the point of delidding soldered ones... its a lucky that solder didn't break the CPU die...


----------



## hat (Dec 24, 2016)

cadaveca said:


> That's what happens when you want them to warranty OC. It's not like an extra 200 MHz is going to matter anyway, unless you need the bragging rights. Why would they bother supporting the egoist?
> 
> People want chips they can OC, but don't blow up. So that's what we've got. I see no problem in that since I watched it slowly happen over the years, the whole time complaining about those focused on OC. So much so that I don't even put OC in my reviews. Go complain in their faces, not mine. ROFL. I didn't make it this way, they did.


I'm not complaining in your face. I'm not telling you to fix it as if you were an Intel exec. We're merely having a conversation.

I don't know what people take overclocking to be, but when I learned, I, the overclocker, was to be responsible for any damage caused to my system due to risk involved (or my own clumsiness). I have no right to buy a CPU and complain to Intel because it won't reach 5GHz. I'm not saying they should warranty it (unless it's a product made for overclocking), or even support/allow it (although I do think removing the capability from all but the most expensive K/X labeled parts is a dick move). I'm saying they shouldn't be artificially limiting their CPUs by causing them to overheat by using monkey spit as thermal paste, because their processors need to overheat and throttle down so they don't damage themselves during normal operation as you suggested.

I've never seen anything blow up from OC unless the user was either ignorant, careless, or both. As long as you stay within reasonable settings, you should be fine. Nobody should be ramming 2v through a processor or trying to reach LN2 overclocking records with a rusty air cooler. There's no reason to "protect the user from themselves" by artificially limiting their product. If it blows up because you fucked with it, then that's your fault, yeah?


----------



## Memphisto (Jan 20, 2017)

Hey one question...

Doesn't it make more sense to directly mount the cooler on the CPU after removing the IHS, instead of only replacing the TIM under the IHS?
Or isn't there much of a difference?

Thanks!


----------



## Mussels (Jan 20, 2017)

Memphisto said:


> Hey one question...
> 
> Doesn't it make more sense to directly mount the cooler on the CPU after removing the IHS, instead of only replacing the TIM under the IHS?
> Or isn't there much of a difference?
> ...



if you replace the paste with something overkill like the liquid metal stuff, theres no real difference.

otherwise its just a safety issue, crushed dies can and do happen.


----------



## silkstone (Jan 20, 2017)

Mussels said:


> if you replace the paste with something overkill like the liquid metal stuff, theres no real difference.
> 
> otherwise its just a safety issue, crushed dies can and do happen.



I can attest to this. I had an old Duron, i think, that had no heat spreader.
It's really easy to chip the die unless you are super careful in putting the HSF back on. Luckily, I only chipped a corner off mine and it still worked fine.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 20, 2017)

this reminds me that i need some liquid metal goodness for my 'new' laptop, hits 85C in load... i should fix that


----------



## Naito (Jan 20, 2017)

Maybe Intel uses average TIM, not just save money, but to make money. Perhaps they know the lack of solder pushes more enthusiasts towards the E/EP platform with its higher entry prices? Or is it possible it is done to leave a bit of wriggle room between these very much incremental generational releases? You wouldn't want your chip to give you too much performance as to not want the next incremental upgrade, would you? That extra 200Mhz is very enticing...


----------



## FireFox (Jan 20, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> Not not buy a used dual core processor from craigslist and practice on that. I've heard some people tried it that way.





peche said:


> great points there! nice advise



That is for dumb people.


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 20, 2017)

Mussels said:


> if you replace the paste with something overkill like the liquid metal stuff, theres no real difference.
> 
> otherwise its just a safety issue, crushed dies can and do happen.


Actually, there is a difference...

...and it's not a great idea for 99.9999% of users here.


----------



## BiggieShady (Jan 20, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> Some massively circular logic happening here.


I think @cadaveca wanted to say that cores, cache and IMC are not made entirely from the same kind of transistors ... and are not equally sensitive to increased current ... and intel's throttling algorithm works solely based on core temps.
Because the trick is to throttle before electron migration even starts to happen, throttling algorithm certainly takes into account the weakest types of transistors in the cpu.
Trouble is that different motherboards apply different voltages to different cpu parts in their XMP implementation (and only cores have sensors).
I agree that having a better TIM under the IHS should be viewed only as "having a better cooling overall" and that cannot in any circumstances be viewed as bad.
However, as an example, it is possible for motherboard manufacturer to set IMC voltage high enough through XMP profile, and assuming delidding is done to overvolt more to be able to overclock more, after you do that you can still be below throttling threshold while at the same time overvolted imc starts electron migrating and it doesn't have temp sensor.
But, yeah, we simply can't say bad TIM is a good solution to get faster throttle response to high currents ... it would be silly.


----------



## Folterknecht (Jan 20, 2017)

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/01/19/intel_kaby_lake_i77700k_cpu_delid_relid_results


----------



## FireFox (Jan 20, 2017)

I have picked up mine a few minutes ago.

Let's see how it performs






This is the worst upgrade i ever have done, in any case i am happy.






http://valid.x86.fr/atvzs9


----------



## FireFox (Jan 20, 2017)

This is just a basic OC, Multiplier and voltage increased, the voltage while running Prime95 is 1.392V but when Gaming it's just 1.372V










http://valid.x86.fr/iqqfm0


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 20, 2017)

So if you de-lid you'll have the same clocks at far lower temps.....


----------



## FireFox (Jan 20, 2017)

the54thvoid said:


> So if you de-lid you'll have the same clocks at far lower temps.....



Because i have a Water Chiller i don't know if it would be worth to de-lid

Note: if it's true a 30c drop when de-lid maybe i could give it a try.


----------



## yotano211 (Jan 20, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> That is for dumb people.


I dont see any dumb thing on practicing on a maybe $20 cpu vs a $350 7700k.


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 20, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Because i have a Water Chiller i don't know if it would be worth to de-lid
> 
> Note: if it's true a 30c drop when de-lid maybe i could give it a try.



You won't need a chiller after relidding. Save yourself 1kw, up to you.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 20, 2017)

thesmokingman said:


> You won't need a chiller after relidding. Save yourself 1kw, up to you.



Well i already have it, is there and it is running and for sure i will need it when doing some Bench


----------



## peche (Jan 20, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> This is just a basic OC, Multiplier and voltage increased, the voltage while running Prime95 is 1.392V but when Gaming it's just 1.372V
> 
> 
> View attachment 83264
> ...


----------



## hat (Jan 21, 2017)

Seems like 5GHz is the new 4GHz.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> Seems like 5GHz is the new 4GHz.



I guess so and if you get a good Chip 5.3GHz is the new 4.5GHz


----------



## Mussels (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I guess so and if you get a good Chip 5.3GHz is the new 4.5GHz



*looks at 2500K*

"new" (mine does 5.1 stable, but at voltages i'm not happy with)


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> That is for dumb people.



Some people aren't born tech geniuses you know.

Some of us might even have motor difficulties. *cough cough*


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> Some people aren't born tech geniuses you know.
> 
> Some of us might even have motor difficulties. *cough cough*



I agree with you.

Sorry it wasn't my intention to offend anyone.

Shame on me.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Sorry it wasn't my intention to offend anyone.
> 
> Shame on me.



I know, I'm just being a butt.  Might be slightly intentional.


----------



## BarbaricSoul (Jan 21, 2017)

Mussels said:


> *looks at 2500K*
> 
> "new" (mine does 5.1 stable, but at voltages i'm not happy with)



the 2600k/Z68GD80/NH-D14 combo I had did 5 GHz at voltages and temps I was happy with, if I didn't have it crunching 24/7 (which is why I tuned it back to 4.5 GHz).


----------



## Vario (Jan 21, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> If you are that nervous I wouldn't do it. Just undervolt that skylake and enjoy lower temps.
> 
> Not not buy a used dual core processor from craigslist and practice on that. I've heard some people tried it that way.


I bought a few celeron 420s from ebay for $3 each and delidded them before I did a 3570K.


----------



## hapkiman (Jan 21, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> That kind of the point. Yes, changing TIM can lower temps. But the chips work just fine as is, and are actually likely to live a bit longer since they will throttle before they damage themselves. Change TIM, and then the CPU can seem to run cool, but can then consume so much current you can kill it easily.
> 
> People seem to forget that the CPU cores are but a small part of today's modern CPUs and those other parts.. don't report temperatures. It's like you all think Intel, that makes billions, is either dumb, or purposefully releasing stuff of lower quality just to be a bunch of jerks...
> 
> ...



He is so right.  It may not be the best TIM ever, nor is it soldered which would be preferable, but it does just fine for what it is designed to do, and it runs the processor perfectly within it's *safe* thermal specs.

I have an i7-7700k running at 4.5GHz (Enhanced Turbo locks all 4 cores at 4.5GHz) so it isn't really overclocked per se, but my temps are fine - very good in fact. I realize I do have a high end cooler (Corsair H115i) but it idles at ~23-25C or so.  The i7-6700k did seem to idle a few degrees cooler, but probabaly this could be attributed to the 300MHz lower clock frequency.  And more importantly 25C is *not* bad, in fact it's GOOD.  And strangely under load, my i7-7700k seems to hover in the mid to high 40's (C) where the i7-6700k would hit 50-55C and stay right around there (and when I say under load, I mean gaming with multiple other apps running).

Not an end all be all processor, but a very fine one nonetheless.  My best bud is waiting for Ryzen and we are going to do his AMD dream build when it comes, so I'm looking forward to that and see how it compares to my i7-7700k/GTX1080 combo. All in all, I'm very pleased with the i7-7700k's temps.  It's not worth de-lidding to me.

*BTW I wouldn't recommend upgrading like I did from a i7-6700k to a i7-7700k (kind of a side-ways grade and not really an upgrade), but having a buddy in the "business," I got the ultimate hook-up and came out with a trade of my 6700k for a 7700k for $25.  And he bought me lunch that day to boot!

Running it on a Z170A board as well just fine.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

hapkiman said:


> *BTW I wouldn't recommend upgrading like I did from a i7-6700k to a i7-7700k (kind of a side-ways grade and not really an upgrade)



And why did you upgrade?


----------



## hat (Jan 21, 2017)

hapkiman said:


> He is so right.  It may not be the best TIM ever, nor is it soldered which would be preferable, but it does just fine for what it is designed to do, and it runs the processor perfectly within it's *safe* thermal specs.
> 
> I have an i7-7700k running at 4.5GHz (Enhanced Turbo locks all 4 cores at 4.5GHz) so it isn't really overclocked per se, but my temps are fine - very good in fact. I realize I do have a high end cooler (Corsair H115i) but it idles at ~23-25C or so.  The i7-6700k did seem to idle a few degrees cooler, but probabaly this could be attributed to the 300MHz lower clock frequency.  And more importantly 25C is *not* bad, in fact it's GOOD.  And strangely under load, my i7-7700k seems to hover in the mid to high 40's (C) where the i7-6700k would hit 50-55C and stay right around there (and when I say under load, I mean gaming with multiple other apps running).
> 
> ...


I find your argument invalid. Of course the H115i will cool that (or any) chip very well. One would be concerned about the paste between the die and IHS if you're trying to use the stock cooler. In many applications, the processor gets very hot, and the stock cooler isn't going to cut it. The other situation where one would be concerned about the die/IHS paste job is if you're overclocking. You can have a great cooler and still be held back by that monkey spit thermal paste. If you redo the job properly yourself, you get much better results.

Most users here should know that heat is not good for electronics. When we get a new Intel CPU and we test it, well, everything is new, and clean. We usually have a decent case with decent airflow to accommodate the components. Even in such a preferable scenario, stock cooling and stock TIM job fails miserably. What happens to one of these chips in an average Joe's Dell a few years down the road? Crappy TIM, crappy cooling solution, crappy case, most likely never been opened and cleaned... I'm sure we all know about overheating processors of yesteryear in such computers, even when the dies were soldered.

Such a crappy TIM job isn't acceptable for anybody, unless you have a good (non-stock) cooling solution and you maintain your computers. 99% of people don't.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> unless you have a good (non-stock) cooling solution and you maintain your computers.


 You mean like me


----------



## hat (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> You mean like me


Like most of us here, yeah. For most of the people these chips with the bad TIM job are going to... probably not.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> Like most of us here, yeah. For most of the people these chips with the bad TIM job are going to... probably not.



Even if the temperatures are around
35c/40c while playing Games i don't think it's that bad, i have to test my Machine with some Games to see the temperature.


----------



## cadaveca (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> I find your argument invalid. Of course the H115i will cool that (or any) chip very well. One would be concerned about the paste between the die and IHS if you're trying to use the stock cooler. In many applications, the processor gets very hot, and the stock cooler isn't going to cut it. The other situation where one would be concerned about the die/IHS paste job is if you're overclocking. You can have a great cooler and still be held back by that monkey spit thermal paste. If you redo the job properly yourself, you get much better results.
> 
> Most users here should know that heat is not good for electronics. When we get a new Intel CPU and we test it, well, everything is new, and clean. We usually have a decent case with decent airflow to accommodate the components. Even in such a preferable scenario, stock cooling and stock TIM job fails miserably. What happens to one of these chips in an average Joe's Dell a few years down the road? Crappy TIM, crappy cooling solution, crappy case, most likely never been opened and cleaned... I'm sure we all know about overheating processors of yesteryear in such computers, even when the dies were soldered.
> 
> Such a crappy TIM job isn't acceptable for anybody, unless you have a good (non-stock) cooling solution and you maintain your computers. 99% of people don't.


What most people do not know, and I couldn't say at the time, is that these chips run @ ~ 1.3V @ stock. Most chips that can do 5 GHz can do it with that same 1.3V. So perhaps the complaints about TIM are simply miss-directed.

IF you don't like the TIM though, that's fine. If it is truly a problem Intel will have a high RMA rate, but I really doubt that will happen.

I had chips nearly 2 months before the launch. Intel had lots of time with these CPUs to make them exactly what they wanted them to be. Frankly, I like my 5 GHz chips, never mind I am one of the lucky people to have a 6700K that can also do 5 GHz.  Guess which one runs cooler? ROFL.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> is that these chips run @ ~ 1.3V @ stock


Wrong

At least mine at stock is 1.24V



cadaveca said:


> Guess which one runs cooler? ROFL.



For sure not your


----------



## thesmokingman (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> For sure not your



Haha, exactly!


----------



## cadaveca (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Wrong
> 
> At least mine at stock is 1.24V



Yeah, some are lower; my 2nd 7700-nonK is also 1.25V. But my first 7700-non, a 7700K, a 7600K and a 7350K are all around that 1.3V. Also had some comments from board maker reps complaining about the "high" turbo voltage. I got another set of retail 7700K and 7600K to play with though, but haven't popped them in yet. My 7350K is ES.

It is possible that those of us that got chips early got chips with higher voltage, too. It'll be interesting to see how things pan out OC- and temp-wise after several months. Early reviews of 6700K from other reviews didn't expect 4.6 GHz to be as easy as it is today.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

Mine is at 4.9GHz 1.29V, i want to see how much i can decrease the voltage and get it stable so far 1.29V it's stable, the 5.0Ghz basic OC i did las night was just because i wanted to see the 5.0GHz magic number
btw, after i get it stable with the lowest voltages possible next step is 5.0GHz with low voltages too, i won't have my CPU for 24/7 at 5.0GHz but at 4.9GHz, 5.0GHz and above it's just for Benches and fun.


----------



## hat (Jan 21, 2017)

cadaveca said:


> What most people do not know, and I couldn't say at the time, is that these chips run @ ~ 1.3V @ stock. Most chips that can do 5 GHz can do it with that same 1.3V. So perhaps the complaints about TIM are simply miss-directed.
> 
> IF you don't like the TIM though, that's fine. If it is truly a problem Intel will have a high RMA rate, but I really doubt that will happen.
> 
> I had chips nearly 2 months before the launch. Intel had lots of time with these CPUs to make them exactly what they wanted them to be. Frankly, I like my 5 GHz chips, never mind I am one of the lucky people to have a 6700K that can also do 5 GHz.  Guess which one runs cooler? ROFL.


It doesn't matter if they run 1.3v or 13v stock. The issue is the temperatures these things run at out of the box, and in most users PCs. Does average Joe know what voltage his processor runs at? Most likely not.

A high RMA rate? How many average Joes do you know realize there is a problem with their computer and RMA the processor? How can a processor be RMA'd when it functions as intended? My complaint is the intended function is bad out of the box. Most people, when they have computer problems, either take it to Geek Squad et al, or they just deal with it until they buy a new computer. I wonder how many people will be in such a situation because their computer is overheating and throttling all the time? Sure, computers need to be maintained... cleaned of dust every so often, which most users don't do... but it doesn't help when you're already so close to the breaking point when it's brand new.

As far as OC talk goes, anyone who's done it know that not only does increasing voltage increase heat, but simply increasing clock speed without touching voltage also increases heat. So I find the entire voltage point irrelevant in all cases.


----------



## FireFox (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> It doesn't matter if they run 1.3v or 13v stock. The issue is the temperatures these things run at out of the box,



I don't want to contradict what you said but i have something to say.

People knew about the temp issue but it looks like they didn't care and bought the 7700K anyway, nobody forced them to buy the damned 7700K and now they are complaining, my 7700K runs at 18c/19c idle, is that temp so bad?, while Gaming my 7700K runs at 35c/37c and sometimes it drops to 32c, is that temp so bad?

They bought the damned 7700K now if they are not happy with temp they have 3 options,

1 - Sell the 7700K and get something else.

2 - Get a better cooler and stop complaining for your own mistake, nobody forced you to buy it.

3 - Keep the CPU with it's high temp live with it and STFU.


----------



## cadaveca (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> It doesn't matter if they run 1.3v or 13v stock. The issue is the temperatures these things run at out of the box, and in most users PCs.


I hear what you are trying to say, but until we have a huge number of people with issues with CPU overheat because of TIM, there is no issue, and your are blowing things out of proportion. Contrary to your position, the majority aren't complaining.

I'll agree easily that there are better TIM options for under the heatspreader. I simply don't care about a CPU running @ 90c when at stock. It's perfectly safe.

Enthusiasts positioning is something else entirely, but enthusiasts aren't the majority, so I can understand why Intel does what it does. Intel has already given you an increase in the throttle point from 65W to 91W (non-K locked chips are 65W or less), which is pretty much a 50% increase. You can then OC and get 125W-150W, nearly triple the power consumption, and then the TIM becomes an issue? OF COURSE IT DOES! 


Remember the OP... read the last paragraph.


----------



## hat (Jan 21, 2017)

To counter your argument: you're not an average Joe, so that side of the argument doesn't affect you. You have great cooling and you know how to properly maintain a computer, so you will never be affected by the same issues that average Joe would. You're not gonna have a hot throttling computer.

The enthusiast side of the issue, your case is a bit different. Your cooling is so good the bad TIM doesn't affect you as much as it would as somebody with cooling like mine. With cooling that good, you'll probably just hit the limit of stability before temperatures truly become an issue. Maybe during stress testing temperatures would become more of an issue, but I'm the type of person who wants it to be cool enough and stable even under those tests others consider too extreme...

@cadaveca the majority are mostly those average users who aren't complaining because they don't know enough to complain. If they knew their computer could be facing less issues if Intel had done the job properly instead of what it is now, I'm sure they'd have a thing or two to say as well.


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## R-T-B (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> 3 - Keep the CPU with it's high temp live with it and STFU.



or 4.)  delid and fix the product, meanwhile legitimately providing customer feedback about how one should not need to do that on a overclockers "k" sku to intel.


----------



## Kanan (Jan 21, 2017)

It's funny Intel gets defended even when messing totally up things, again going back to cheap stuff pre Devils Canyon essentially betraying everyone, but when AMD messes up smaller things everyone hates the company for decades.

That is really remarkable. Double standard gets a whole new meaning here.


----------



## R-T-B (Jan 21, 2017)

Kanan said:


> It's funny Intel gets defended even when messing totally up things, again going back to cheap stuff pre Devils Canyon essentially betraying everyone, but when AMD messes up smaller things everyone hates the company for decades.
> 
> That is really remarkable. Double standard gets a whole new meaning here.



I'm not sure you can call AMDs messups "smaller" though.


----------



## Kanan (Jan 21, 2017)

R-T-B said:


> I'm not sure you can call AMDs messups "smaller" though.


It's a difference whether you betray intended or you mess up mistakenly. AMD did the latter with their FX line. Intel on the other hand most likely wants to dumb down the 7700K to celebrate another Devils Canyon with non-garbage TIM soon. Their primitive strategy is obvious by now.


----------



## hapkiman (Jan 21, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> And why did you upgrade?



As I've stated before I have a very close friend who works as an IT tech and has a business where he sells/repairs/buys computers and parts.  He always hooks me up with the latest parts and tech.  If I didn't have him as a friend I would not have done it. But it cost me next to nothing -so why not?


----------



## hapkiman (Jan 21, 2017)

hat said:


> I find your argument invalid. Of course the H115i will cool that (or any) chip very well. *One would be concerned about the paste between the die and IHS if you're trying to use the stock cooler. In many applications, the processor gets very hot, and the stock cooler isn't going to cut it.* The other situation where one would be concerned about the die/IHS paste job is if you're overclocking. You can have a great cooler and still be held back by that monkey spit thermal paste. If you redo the job properly yourself, you get much better results.
> 
> Most users here should know that heat is not good for electronics. When we get a new Intel CPU and we test it, well, everything is new, and clean. We usually have a decent case with decent airflow to accommodate the components. Even in such a preferable scenario, stock cooling and stock TIM job fails miserably. What happens to one of these chips in an average Joe's Dell a few years down the road? Crappy TIM, crappy cooling solution, crappy case, most likely never been opened and cleaned... I'm sure we all know about overheating processors of yesteryear in such computers, even when the dies were soldered.
> 
> Such a crappy TIM job isn't acceptable for anybody, unless you have a good (non-stock) cooling solution and you maintain your computers. 99% of people don't.



Why would anyone buy an unlocked - high end enthusiast level processor, and then run it on the stock cooler (actually there isn't even a "stock" cooler for the i7 7700k)?  The reason they dropped the stock cooler on the 6700k and 7700k (just like on the HEDT procs) is because they expect you to be using a decent air or AIO cooler anyway, and people weren't using the included cooler, so it was a waste of $ to include it.

But I too would prefer that they still soldered the heatspreader to the die (I think I already said that).


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 22, 2017)

I agree..

First.. it doesn't come with a cooler. Second, the stock intel cooler would keep it plenty cool AT STOCK...THAT'S WHAT IT'S MADE FOR. They don't put out coolers that don't work. That's asinine.


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## hat (Jan 22, 2017)

The k series might not come with a stock cooler (Newegg says 4970k does, at least, not sure about 6k or 7k series), but that's a bit of a moot point. The thermal paste issue affects the entire lineup since the 3 series up, unless you buy the HEDT platform. That means it affects average Joe and enthusiasts all the same. Most of us aren't using stock coolers anyway, at least with the k series CPUs, so I find it better they don't include it myself... but that changes nothing about the thermal paste issue.


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## hapkiman (Jan 22, 2017)

hat said:


> The k series might not come with a stock cooler (Newegg says 4970k does, at least, not sure about 6k or 7k series), but that's a bit of a moot point. The thermal paste issue affects the entire lineup since the 3 series up, unless you buy the HEDT platform. That means it affects average Joe and enthusiasts all the same. Most of us aren't using stock coolers anyway, at least with the k series CPUs, so I find it better they don't include it myself... but that changes nothing about the thermal paste issue.



Yes the i7 4790k did come with a stock cooler and it was the last one of the top "k" procs to have it.  That was obviously when a light bulb went off in someone's mind at Intel and they figured out they were wasting money.  The 6700k and the 7700k did not have one -  as I just stated.  Find me someone using a stock Intel cooler on their i7 4790*k, *and I'll show you someone who is confused.

And more importantly I think we are agreeing on the core point here.  I get what you are saying. 

They should have kept soldering the IHS just like they did with Sandy Bridge.


----------



## trt740 (Jan 22, 2017)

I will say that a 7700k, like I had, with a default Intel cooler and the auto voltage setting under extreme load would fail and shut down. It would overheat . However, any chance that you could ever get enough load in regular use is very unlikely. Plus it would throttle. These are very hot chips for sure. In addition, I experienced as have many other users extreme temperature spikes on the cores. I have never seen that before in any Intel chips. I have seen uneven core temps but not spikes at random times on random cores. I saw these spikes when more than 1.3v was applied. Im not sure removing the heat spreader would help with this. However, I could be wrong. My 7700k was the hottest chip I have ever used. So anything you could do to help it thermally would be great.


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## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

The CPU is great if you have an adequate Cooler System.



Kanan said:


> It's funny Intel gets defended even when messing totally things up



I don't defend Intel at all, they Fu@@ed up this time but before i bought the CPU i read and re-read about the heat issue so i was aware and forgetting the fact that i have a good Cooler System even if i didn't have it i wouldn't hesitate to buy the CPU because i knew that the only way to solve the heat issue was deliding or upgrading to a better Cooler System and that was OK for me, that said, who bought the CPU did it to their own risk.



hapkiman said:


> But it cost me next to nothing -so why not?



So don't complain.

No offence.



hapkiman said:


> Why would anyone buy an unlocked - high end enthusiast level processor, and then run it on the stock cooler (actually there isn't even a "stock" cooler for the i7 7700k)? The reason they dropped the stock cooler on the 6700k and 7700k (just like on the HEDT procs) is because they expect you to be using a decent air or AIO cooler anyway, and people weren't using the included cooler, so it was a waste of $ to include it.



I agree.

Nowadays who runs a stock cooler is a fool.

Once again, no offence.


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## damric (Jan 22, 2017)

I have had my i3-6100 for about a year now and I am ready to delid.

My cooler, a TPC-612 leftover from hot AMD builds doesn't seem to help much despite being so overkill for this dual core. I easily hit over 80c when doing some heavy workloads.

I think a delid will help it run cooler, and maybe even stabilize higher clocks. I have mutant gorilla hands so wish me luck! If I break it, at least it was only $110.


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## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

damric said:


> I have mutant gorilla hands






damric said:


> so wish me luck! If I break it, at least it was only $110



Nah, you will do great, start with the 4 corners and then carefully the sides without put too much pressure, my first time took me 5 minutes, i have delided a few CPUs for some friends of mine, it became a hobby for me, would be nice to delid my 7700K but just those 4/5minutes that i need to delid it feels like adrenaline after done the fun is over.

Note: just in case i decide to go for 5.5GHz or above delid it's an option, but before that happens first i would push my Chiller to it's limit.


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## yotano211 (Jan 22, 2017)

damric said:


> I have had my i3-6100 for about a year now and I am ready to delid.
> 
> My cooler, a TPC-612 leftover from hot AMD builds doesn't seem to help much despite being so overkill for this dual core. I easily hit over 80c when doing some heavy workloads.
> 
> I think a delid will help it run cooler, and maybe even stabilize higher clocks. I have mutant gorilla hands so wish me luck! If I break it, at least it was only $110.


You shouldnt be getting those kinds of temps. My friend has a i3 6320 with the stock intel cooler and never gets over 60C. I tested the temps for him. He keeps his house at around 73F.


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## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

trt740 said:


> I experienced as have many other users extreme temperature spikes on the cores. I have never seen that before in any Intel chips.



Will that kill the CPU?


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## trt740 (Jan 22, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> Will that kill the CPU?



I am not sure but if you read a few reviews you will see that other have report the same issues. However this could be bios related voltage issues that will get ironed out.


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## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

trt740 said:


> However this could be bios related voltage issues that will get ironed out.



If so maybe Intel will correct it.


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## FireFox (Jan 22, 2017)

For 4.9Ghz 1.264V it is not that bad


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## damric (Jan 22, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> You shouldnt be getting those kinds of temps. My friend has a i3 6320 with the stock intel cooler and never gets over 60C. I tested the temps for him. He keeps his house at around 73F.



Your friend probably isn't pushing nearly 1.5v and a 1GHz OC.


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## hat (Jan 22, 2017)

damric said:


> Your friend probably isn't pushing nearly 1.5v and a 1GHz OC.


No wonder your temps are hot then... in such a case, I think delid won't help you much, you probably just need a better cooler. Delid helps with thermal transfer to the heatsink, but if the heatsink's cooling capacity is already reaching its limit (as I suspect yours is) it won't really do much.

Now, if you get a better cooler capable of cooling considerably more than your current one, THEN delid will help. You'll be able to push more heat to your would-be better cooler, which can handle that much heat.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 23, 2017)

hat said:


> No wonder your temps are hot then... in such a case, *I think delid won't help you much, you probably just need a better cooler.* Delid helps with thermal transfer to the heatsink, but if the heatsink's cooling capacity is already reaching its limit (as I suspect yours is) it won't really do much.
> 
> Now, if you get a better cooler capable of cooling considerably more than your current one, THEN delid will help. You'll be able to push more heat to your would-be better cooler, which can handle that much heat.



That's where a delid will actually be MOST helpful. With high overclocks you get very close to the tjmax, which in turn creates heat that makes sustaining said overclock very difficult. Enter delidding which lops off 20c average off the top, giving us that breathing room back. A better cooler is great, but it will not make a difference when you're that close to tjmax, unless we're talking more extreme cooling like a chiller or phase but that is throwing mass wattage/bucks at the problem. Delidding on the other hand can be done for a handful of dollars, basically for a tube of CLU.


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## Vario (Jan 23, 2017)

just get a better heatsink, delidding an i3 is ridiculous.


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## hat (Jan 23, 2017)

How helpful can a delid be when he's most likely maxing out his cooler's capacity anyway? The cooler can only cool so much.


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## Vario (Jan 23, 2017)

hat said:


> How helpful can a delid be when he's most likely maxing out his cooler's capacity anyway? The cooler can only cool so much.


$10 for CLU.
$15 for a proper heatsink from ebay.  

It doesn't even make sense from a budget standpoint when you consider the risk and the loss of resale.


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## nomdeplume (Jan 23, 2017)

That oddest of moments when someone on the internet notes the absurdity of an act without promoting it for their own enjoyment.  

Delidding an i3 is the good kind of absurdity.  99% of this thread has been the other kind.  I say go for it and be the one to find out if it reacts as expected.


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## damric (Jan 23, 2017)

The TPC coolers have enormous thermal output, and I wasn't able to saturate the same cooler with highly clocked AMD processors so I doubt upgrading to anything less than a true water cooling copper 240 rad would help.

Going to try it and run naked no lid since I have a horizontal setup and my cooler has nice base plate.

I will log some before temps first though.


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## hat (Jan 23, 2017)

Be very careful not to damage the CPU die running without the IHS...


----------



## Papahyooie (Jan 23, 2017)

I'm with Hat, here... What sense does it make to delid ANY cpu without a decent cooler? 

Heat goes from the die, to the heat spreader, to the cooler, then to the air/water. If you can't get the heat out of the cooler and into the air/water, then delidding and/or changing the TIM will do nothing for you. In a stock cooling scenario, the cooler is the choke point. Heat will build up behind the choke point, and eventually stay in the die, where you get higher temps. If you get a better cooler, and it can handle the heat output, you've moved the choke point to between the heat spreader and the cooler. So you put high quality TIM between the spreader and cooler, and move the choke point back to the die/cooler interface. ONLY then does it make sense to delid. 

Delidding on a stock cooler will not help at all.


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## EarthDog (Jan 23, 2017)

You all are assuming that its saturated. Remember, the temps are coming from the core, not the heatsink. I mean, you are absolutely 100% right IF the HS is saturated. Perhaps its the impedance from die->TIM->IHS->TIM->heatsink is part of the reason why.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jan 23, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> You all are assuming that its saturated. Remember, the temps are coming from the core, not the heatsink. I mean, you are absolutely 100% right IF the HS is saturated. Perhaps its the impedance from die->TIM->IHS->TIM->heatsink is part of the reason why.


That's true. But if you buy a new cooler, and your temps are lower, then that definitively means that your previous cooler was saturated.


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 23, 2017)

Not really... saturation and how much heat it can move are two different things. Those two points cross, indeed, but are two different things. Coolers only get saturated when the load they are trying to cool saturate it. By no means does that ALWAYS (or in your words, definitively) imply that the HS is saturated/maxed out. it CAN mean that, certainly.

in other words, I can put a stock 7700K on a system and reach 60C temps with 212 Evo. If I put a NHD-15 on there I may reach 55C. Was the Evo saturated? No... see what I mean?

EDIT: To be fair, we are 153 posts in and I have no idea what CPU and stock cooler you are talking about at this point in the thread, lol!


----------



## Papahyooie (Jan 23, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> Not really... saturation and how much heat it can move are two different things. Those two points cross, indeed, but are two different things. Coolers only get saturated when the load they are trying to cool saturate it. By no means does that ALWAYS (or in your words, definitively) imply that the HS is saturated/maxed out. it CAN mean that, certainly.
> 
> in other words, I can put a stock 7700K on a system and reach 60C temps with 212 Evo. If I put a NHD-15 on there I may reach 55C. Was the Evo saturated? No... see what I mean?
> 
> EDIT: To be fair, we are 153 posts in and I have no idea what CPU and stock cooler you are talking about at this point in the thread, lol!



That's fair. Perhaps I was using the wrong terminology. 

Either way, I think we can agree that with a stock cooler, your temp problems are almost certainly because the heatsink simply cannot move any more heat away from the core. And as such, it doesn't make any sense to delid with a stock cooler. 

I mean, every person is free to do whatever they wish with their stuff. I just think it's a waste of time and a badly calculated risk.


----------



## EarthDog (Jan 23, 2017)

Perhaps. 

I wouldn't delid if I had the stock cooler either. As you said, its a badly calculated risk. I would get a better cooler, see what temps look like then, and if they are still bad, look back into delidding.


----------



## peche (Jan 23, 2017)

damric said:


> I have had my i3-6100 for about a year now and I am ready to delid.
> 
> My cooler, a TPC-612 leftover from hot AMD builds doesn't seem to help much despite being so overkill for this dual core. I easily hit over 80c when doing some heavy workloads.
> 
> I think a delid will help it run cooler, and maybe even stabilize higher clocks. I have mutant gorilla hands so wish me luck! If I break it, at least it was only $110.



dont delid, just get a better cooler, worthless to delid an i3 and the when upgrading you have to charge like $10 for a delidded i3 cuz no body will pay moar for it, thats how market works sir, its better to upgrade to a decent air cooler or AIO Water cooler.



Knoxx29 said:


> Nah, you will do great, start with the 4 corners and then carefully the sides without put too much pressure, my first time took me 5 minutes, i have delided a few CPUs for some friends of mine, it became a hobby for me, would be nice to delid my 7700K but just those 4/5minutes that i need to delid it feels like adrenaline after done the fun is over.
> 
> Note: just in case i decide to go for 5.5GHz or above delid it's an option, but before that happens first i would push my Chiller to it's limit.


still waiting on whatssapp to have the premiere!




yotano211 said:


> You shouldnt be getting those kinds of temps. My friend has a i3 6320 with the stock intel cooler and never gets over 60C. I tested the temps for him. He keeps his house at around 73F.


me naither thats something pretty odd, i3 are the cooler processors from intel



Vario said:


> just get a better heatsink, delidding an i3 is ridiculous.


+1 

Regards,


----------



## hat (Jan 23, 2017)

@peche he says he's running a 1GHz overclock at 1.5v... that kind of speed/voltage is what makes me think his cooler just isn't up to it. His cooler, while miles better than the stock cooler, is still rather basic.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 23, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> I'm with Hat, here... What sense does it make to delid ANY cpu without a decent cooler?



Who implied that you wouldn't already be using decent cooling? This is a created point to deny the thread topic.


----------



## nomdeplume (Jan 23, 2017)

I think we all know delidding the i3 is step one in the experiment.  An important one to make sure works before buying a new cooler.


----------



## Papahyooie (Jan 23, 2017)

thesmokingman said:


> Who implied that you wouldn't already be using decent cooling? This is a created point to deny the thread topic.


There are at least two pages worth of people talking about delidding with a stock cooler. I'm not trying to "deny the thread topic" at all. I'm just discussing what others have. It's kind of a tangent to the thread topic, sure.


----------



## peche (Jan 23, 2017)

hat said:


> @peche he says he's running a 1GHz overclock at 1.5v... that kind of speed/voltage is what makes me think his cooler just isn't up to it. His cooler, while miles better than the stock cooler, is still rather basic.


Overclocked i3? 
if its stock cooler might be not enough bro, 



nomdeplume said:


> I think we all know delidding the i3 is step one in the experiment.  An important one to make sure works before buying a new cooler.


well i do support delid on i7's which are the most delidded units i ever seen, also some i5's that are insanely OC'ed, i3 im afraid that have never heard, but great! being the 1st !



Papahyooie said:


> There are at least two pages worth of people talking about delidding with a stock cooler. I'm not trying to "deny the thread topic" at all. I'm just discussing what others have. It's kind of a tangent to the thread topic, sure.


i have a known scenario were the owner wasn't able to get a decent cooler for a 4770 non K that was overheating or something but delid offered him a quite decent temp drops for this workstation, now still running delidded with stock cooler and temps are under 80c at heavy load or max load! idles at 50c ! thats quite great!
The purpose of delid its also to give a help, replacing the crap intel puts under IHS, 


Regards,


----------



## Papahyooie (Jan 23, 2017)

peche said:


> i have a known scenario were the owner wasn't able to get a decent cooler for a 4770 non K that was overheating or something but delid offered him a quite decent temp drops for this workstation, now still running delidded with stock cooler and temps are under 80c at heavy load or max load! idles at 50c ! thats quite great!
> The purpose of delid its also to give a help, replacing the crap intel puts under IHS,



That's an extremely rare case. In that case I suppose it was because the TIM underneath the heat spreader was bad, not fully contacting, etc. Something was "wrong" with that chip. I don't know if Intel or anybody does RMA's for overheating issues, but if they do, that would be the way to go in that case, rather than delidding and chance destroying the chip. 

So I guess I have to qualify my statement... There is no reason to delid a chip on stock cooling IF everything is working the way it is supposed to.


----------



## Kursah (Jan 23, 2017)

I have RMA'd Intel CPU's because if heat issues. I RMA'd an E8600 that would hit 100C+ at stock speeds under a Xig on 3 different boards and a 4770K that would throttle at stock speeds under a Noctua tower cooler as the recent ones that come to mind. 

There's also the Intel Performance Tuning plan that you can pay for and is relatively cheap, and is an overclocker's warranty on K-series CPU's which have a voided warranty if you OC a K-series CPU. So it is a good piece of mind that goes along with the standard 3-year warranty. This is a no-questions asked warranty as-long-as you don't physically modify the CPU in any way...overclocking is fine, over voltage, etc...but don't delid or both warranties are done.


----------



## peche (Jan 23, 2017)

Papahyooie said:


> That's an extremely rare case. In that case I suppose it was because the TIM underneath the heat spreader was bad, not fully contacting, etc. Something was "wrong" with that chip. I don't know if Intel or anybody does RMA's for overheating issues, but if they do, that would be the way to go in that case, rather than delidding and chance destroying the chip.
> 
> So I guess I have to qualify my statement... There is no reason to delid a chip on stock cooling IF everything is working the way it is supposed to.


shit happens... or maybe not all the reason are as dumb as they seem to be...

Regards,


----------



## phanbuey (Jan 23, 2017)

Kursah said:


> I have RMA'd Intel CPU's because if heat issues. I RMA'd an E8600 that would hit 100C+ at stock speeds under a Xig on 3 different boards and a 4770K that would throttle at stock speeds under a Noctua tower cooler as the recent ones that come to mind.
> 
> There's also the Intel Performance Tuning plan that you can pay for and is relatively cheap, and is an overclocker's warranty on K-series CPU's which have a voided warranty if you OC a K-series CPU. So it is a good piece of mind that goes along with the standard 3-year warranty. This is a no-questions asked warranty as-long-as you don't physically modify the CPU in any way...overclocking is fine, over voltage, etc...but don't delid or both warranties are done.



I had an e8300 that did that, the delid helped a lot, but it still  ran in the 90's - for many many years..

I think the temp sensors on those were a bit wonky, and if I remember you could apply an offset in the bios to tweak them.

If my chip is not defective, and I have not hit max stable OC and temps are an issue, then I will for sure delid.

I used to hit 95 - 100C at 4.77 Ghz on the 6700k, and now its sitting at 85C max load linx for a few hours.

The delid gives that extra performance bump; otherwise I would be sitting at 4.5


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## hat (Jan 23, 2017)

I think the K series CPUs should already come with that warranty. Seriously, who buys a K CPU and doesn't overclock it? That's the whole point of buying that CPU.


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## P4-630 (Jan 23, 2017)

hat said:


> Seriously, who buys a K CPU and doesn't overclock it?



People that look at the highest stock clock speeds.


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## peche (Jan 23, 2017)

+1


P4-630 said:


> People that look at the highest stock clock speeds.


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## Kursah (Jan 23, 2017)

hat said:


> I think the K series CPUs should already come with that warranty. Seriously, who buys a K CPU and doesn't overclock it? That's the whole point of buying that CPU.



For you or me sure...but there's more than just that out there and different perspectives that need to be accounted for outside of the box. Thinking outside the realm of TPU, overclockers, tuners, etc...these K-series chips are in A LOT of systems where they never do anything beyond default, never go faster, hell many never see linked max multi at default clocks that allows all 4 cores to operate at 100% stock turbo speeds. That's just the reality of it. There are many cases where the non-K would've done just fine though and while I may try to sway people that way...when the price is close and the CPU is that much faster...that's all they see and want.

I've sold dozens of K-series because folks want the fastest CPU but have no interest in overclocking. Guess what the K-chips offer? Exactly that in the mainstream consumer market. 

Even going from the top i7 Haswell to i7 DC was an option for some that "had to have the faster CPU", going from a 4.0GHz turbo on the 4770K to 4.4GHz turbo on 4790K without doing more than swapping CPU's. It makes a difference for some folks, probably more-so in their specs but for some instances where that extra 400MHz can get their processing tasks accomplished faster...though really I try to push those guys to Intel's HEDT line, most folks would rather go with a main-line K-chip.

I see it in the same way though, I wouldn't personally buy a K-series CPU unless I intended to overclock...or in my case buy a used one that is known to run hot and thus not very OC-able to run in my server at stock clocks and undervolted. It is still waiting to be delidded though. 

Intel won't budge on the warranty, and they don't have to. I don't agree with their standing on it...and do agree that K chips should have the overclocking warranty, for $25-30 it was still a damn good piece of mind...and to pay that for a "no question's asked RMA" is worth it to me.


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## phanbuey (Jan 24, 2017)

I give intel some credit in the sense that the K series is essentially what the unlocked X series used to be back in the day... ie. Q6600 ($500) vs QX6700 / X6800 ($999)... the current 7700K goes for $350 and hits 5Ghz on a decent OC with an unlocked multiplier; comparatively speaking the K series chips are pretty cheap for what we used to pay for back in the day for that type of luxury.  Granted, the overclocks are not as high as they used to be, but 5Ghz is still pretty sweet.


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## P4-630 (Jan 24, 2017)

*Hardware.Info overclocked Core i7 7700K to 6.5 GHz with LN2 with ALL cores active*

Translated with google translate:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https://nl.hardware.info/nieuws/50855/hardwareinfo-overklokt-core-i7-7700k-naar-65-ghz-met-ln2&edit-text=&act=url

Original
https://nl.hardware.info/nieuws/50855/hardwareinfo-overklokt-core-i7-7700k-naar-65-ghz-met-ln2


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## EarthDog (Jan 24, 2017)

They've already hit 7GHz..


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## R-T-B (Jan 24, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> They've already hit 7GHz..



with all cores active?


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## EarthDog (Jan 24, 2017)

No... but I see NOW, that isn't his point.. he started a thread as well as this post here.


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## damric (Jan 24, 2017)

Preliminary data.

Before delid:

Ambient: *18.3C* (Open Air Test Bench)
TPC-612 with TX-4

*i3-6100* @*4602MHz* @*1.488v* (CPU-Z)

Idle: *28C*
AIDA64: *52C*
3DMark11 Physics: *75C*
Kombustor CPU Burner: *83C*
Cinebench R15 Multi: *83C
*

*


*


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## damric (Jan 24, 2017)

It lives!

I was worried as I saw some shiny traces exposed on two places on the plastic, but it booted up fine and here I am typing.

It took less than 5 minutes to razor knife the heat spreader, much more time just turning screw, cleaning and applying new TIM, ect.

Eww the TIM under the lid was that hard bubblegum TIM, like dried out waxy clay.

Replaced with MX-4 because that's what I had on hand.

So far IDLE temps look same. About to run the same stress tests and then I'll be back with the results.


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## peche (Jan 24, 2017)

damric said:


> It lives!
> 
> I was worried as I saw some shiny traces exposed on two places on the plastic, but it booted up fine and here I am typing.
> 
> ...


Delidded i3 ?
best results with liquid metal between Die and IHs....


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## damric (Jan 25, 2017)

peche said:


> Delidded i3 ?
> best results with liquid metal between Die and IHs....



I agree. I should have waited and ordered some liquid metal. This light weight grease (MX-4) is worse than the stock TIM.

*Results:*

Ambient 18.3C Same

Idle: *28C Same
*
AIDA64: *62C *worse by* +10C
*
3DMark11 Physics: *82C *worse by *+7C
*
I'm not even going to risk running the other two tests.

Conclusion: It's possible that the MX-4 needed some burn-in time. Next time will be a liquid metal test. Intel stock bubble gum TIM certainly doesn't look bad though, so I'd say this is not worth the effort and risk. I did this for fun, and in the name of science and breaking stuff. I do not regret my testing thus far.

I would have preferred to do a naked delid, but my cooler would not make contact with the CPU die when I tried it, even after removing additional locking mechanisms from motherboard, so blah...
*

*


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## yotano211 (Jan 25, 2017)

damric said:


> Your friend probably isn't pushing nearly 1.5v and a 1GHz OC.


How are you even overclocking on a locked processor.


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## damric (Jan 25, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> How are you even overclocking on a locked processor.



Cuz I'm old school and I learned how to overclock before Black Editions and K series SKUs


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## nomdeplume (Jan 25, 2017)

This is great.  I look forward to liquid metal results.


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## FireFox (Jan 25, 2017)

damric said:


> I agree. I should have waited and ordered some liquid metal. This light weight grease (MX-4) is worse than the stock TIM.
> 
> *Results:*
> 
> ...



When you apply for example _Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra _then you will see temp drop.


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## yotano211 (Jan 25, 2017)

damric said:


> Cuz I'm old school and I learned how to overclock before Black Editions and K series SKUs


Oh really, yea I am Asian with a 10inch 3rd leg.


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## damric (Jan 25, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> Oh really, yea I am Asian with a 10inch 3rd leg.



That's great now take it out of your mouth and go overclock something.


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## phanbuey (Jan 25, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> When you apply for example _Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra _then you will see temp drop.


+1  

Dont use anything but... i used GC extreme and it dried out in like a week.  And my prolimatech PK-3 was worse than stock.... the liquid ultra was a decent 6C drop between the IHS and core, and am using thermal grizzly kryonaut on the block.

might go for another rad in the loop to get a zen chip in there.


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## yotano211 (Jan 25, 2017)

damric said:


> That's great now take it out of your mouth and go overclock something.


I will has some has this laptop company releases the unlocked bios for the 7700k.


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## peche (Jan 25, 2017)

damric said:


> I agree. I should have waited and ordered some liquid metal. This light weight grease (MX-4) is worse than the stock TIM.
> 
> *Results:*
> 
> ...


its weird to see a delidded processor that is showing worse temps, well certainly i have never have seen a delidded i3, but yes liquid metal its the better one fot this task, 
9
Also, Arctic claims to nave no bed in time or burning time like the well know arctic silver 5 that has a 200Hours burning time, but its great to give some cycles, maybe it gets better or improve temps, 





phanbuey said:


> +1
> 
> Dont use anything but... i used GC extreme and it dried out in like a week.  And my prolimatech PK-3 was worse than stock.... the liquid ultra was a decent 6C drop between the IHS and core, and am using thermal grizzly kryonaut on the block.
> 
> might go for another rad in the loop to get a zen chip in there.



i got a quite interesting Drop on my ivy, you might have done something wrong or sat the processor and screw the thin liquid metal layer on cpu die when sitting it on the retention cage, 




yotano211 said:


> I will has some has this laptop company releases the unlocked bios for the 7700k.


take in consideration that liquid metal corrodes aluminium and some nickel plates, so if your device cooler isnt cooper bassed or any other metal you might be away from use it, for laptops Arctic MX4, Thermal Grizzly Kyronaut and Gelid Extreme are well know alternatives for better temps, i did a Repaste on my cousin's Gaming laptop, an MSI that had like a 1 year of several abuse, we did a ultra deep clean and the results after Repaste were amazing, temp drop on idle of 8C, now iddles  @ 33C and the max load got a incredible 18C drop, now max temp its 61,  also max temp on the GTX 960m chip its 7c, a 9C drop on a great cooled laptop using Arctic Mx4 

Regards,


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## phanbuey (Jan 25, 2017)

^ I was saying that I only got a drop with liquid metal, vs the silicone pastes.


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## peche (Jan 25, 2017)

phanbuey said:


> ^ I was saying that I only got a drop with liquid metal, vs the silicone pastes.


dont take it personal its just a comment or reference, i do know the situation you were, also if your were close me i'll provide some for your Delid !


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## yotano211 (Jan 25, 2017)

peche said:


> its weird to see a delidded processor that is showing worse temps, well certainly i have never have seen a delidded i3, but yes liquid metal its the better one fot this task,
> 9
> Also, Arctic claims to nave no bed in time or burning time like the well know arctic silver 5 that has a 200Hours burning time, but its great to give some cycles, maybe it gets better or improve temps,
> 
> ...


I only put CLU on the die when I delid it. I have lots of experience with CLU. The delid tool comes today so I'm happy about it.


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## peche (Jan 25, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> The delid tool comes today so I'm happy about it.


no honor using delid tool



Spoiler: Delid tool....


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## nomdeplume (Jan 25, 2017)

Wear pants and take the utmost care not to pull an R-T-B with that hogleg you're so happy to tell us about.


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## yotano211 (Jan 25, 2017)

peche said:


> no honor using delid tool
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Delid tool....


No honor in having a bent processor, fuc honor.


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## peche (Jan 25, 2017)

yotano211 said:


> No honor in having a bent processor, fuc honor.


made my day! lol


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## damric (Jan 27, 2017)

Update: it appears as though my temps are normalizing back to at least what they were before I changed the TIM under the lid. I'll run the same stress tests again in a couple days to verify. I guess it is possible that the MX-4 needed a little burn-in time.


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## EarthDog (Jan 27, 2017)

MX-4 has zero burn in time.


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## damric (Jan 27, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> MX-4 has zero burn in time.



Yes but it may have spread out, settled, or otherwise migrated somewhat. You know what I mean.


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## EarthDog (Jan 27, 2017)

I _now_ know what you mean, yes.


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## Kanan (Jan 27, 2017)

damric said:


> Update: it appears as though my temps are normalizing back to at least what they were before I changed the TIM under the lid. I'll run the same stress tests again in a couple days to verify. I guess it is possible that the MX-4 needed a little burn-in time.


Simply use a better TIM if you want it to be better than before. MX-4 isn't really good enough. I thought you want progress and not the same temperatures than before.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 27, 2017)

damric said:


> Update: it appears as though my temps are normalizing back to at least what they were before I changed the TIM under the lid. I'll run the same stress tests again in a couple days to verify. I guess it is possible that the MX-4 needed a little burn-in time.



Did you glue or re-seal the IHS back on or are you free balling it?


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## damric (Jan 27, 2017)

thesmokingman said:


> Did you glue or re-seal the IHS back on or are you free balling it?



Free balling for sure. Will make that much easier when I get my liquid metal.


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## damric (Jan 27, 2017)

Kanan said:


> Simply use a better TIM if you want it to be better than before. MX-4 isn't really good enough. I thought you want progress and not the same temperatures than before.



Sorry it's what I had in stock at the moment. I explained that.


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## Kanan (Jan 27, 2017)

damric said:


> Sorry it's what I had in stock at the moment. I explained that.


Np. I'm curious to see the results when you got the metallic TIM.


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## thesmokingman (Jan 27, 2017)

damric said:


> Free balling for sure. Will make that much easier when I get my liquid metal.



Ah as I thought. Free balling means the IHS will move soon as pressure is applied as with the socket lever.


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## FireFox (Jan 27, 2017)

I didn't want delid my 7700K but i am too curious to see how many degrees it will drop that's why i will delid it.

I have ordered *Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra *and* Grizzly Kryonaut.
*
Before i delid it i will do test the CPU stock and OC'ed and after delid i will do the same test.


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## damric (Jan 27, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I didn't want delid my 7700K but i am too curious to see how many degrees it will drop that's why i will delid it.
> 
> I have ordered *Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra *and* Grizzly Kryonaut.
> *
> Before i delid it i will do test the CPU stock and OC'ed and after delid i will do the same test.



It wasn't too difficult. I was more scared of bending those tiny assed pins in the motherboard socket while removing/installing because they look so fragile compared to AMD CPU pins which I have bent plenty ooops.


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## FireFox (Jan 27, 2017)

damric said:


> It wasn't too difficult. I was more scared of bending those tiny assed pins in the motherboard socket while removing/installing because they look so fragile compared to AMD CPU pins which I have bent plenty ooops.



I know that it's not difficult and i am not scare at all, i have done it at least 15 times, as i have said in one of my posts, it's a hobby for me, how long did you need?


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## damric (Jan 27, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> I know that it's not difficult and i am not scare at all, i have done it at least 15 times, as i have said in one of my posts, it's a hobby for me, how long did you need?



Probably less than 5 minutes.


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## peche (Jan 27, 2017)

damric said:


> Probably less than 5 minutes.


3 mins here... pretty easy with a sharpen blade...


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## FireFox (Jan 31, 2017)




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## EarthDog (Jan 31, 2017)

You went bare die?!!! What were the temps before in this same testing? Do tell!!


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## FireFox (Jan 31, 2017)

EarthDog said:


> You went bare die?!!! What were the temps before in this same testing? Do tell!!



I did a test 2 days ago before i delided the CPU with room temp 10c

Results





Room temp today 22c and CPU delided



EarthDog said:


> You went bare die??



Nope, i would never do that.

I forgot to say that 2 days ago when i did the test it was a 4.9GHz with 1.28V and now is at 5.0GHz with 1.36V in full load otherwise when playing games 1.344V


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## EarthDog (Jan 31, 2017)

Cool.. seems better!

But since your information is using different speeds, voltage and ambient temps, it's incredibly tough to see the actual temp drop from your efforts.


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## Carsomyr (Feb 5, 2017)

I'm considering to delid my i7 7700k
What liquid metal would you suggest I use (what are some of the best?) for contact between die and ihs and for the paste between the ihs and water block, is as5 good enough or should I buy Gelid extreme?


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

Carsomyr said:


> I'm considering to delid my i7 7700k
> What liquid metal would you suggest I use (what are some of the best?) for contact between die and ihs and for the paste between the ihs and water block, is as5 good enough or should I buy Gelid extreme?



Post   #229


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## phanbuey (Feb 5, 2017)

is ahtat on the chiller or just stock water?


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## FireFox (Feb 5, 2017)

phanbuey said:


> is ahtat on the chiller or just stock water?



Stock.


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## damric (Feb 10, 2017)

CLU arrived this week and today I had a chance to apply it and perform testing.  Here's the results:

Ambient: *18.3C*
(+/- from stock)
Idle: *25C  (-3C)*
AIDA64: *45C (-7C)*
3DMark 11 Physics: *58C  (-17C)*
Cinebench R15: *66C (-17C)*
Kombustor: *72C (-11C)*

I got the stuff for $9.75 from Sidewinder Computers via Amazon. There was barely any in the tube. Just enough to get a very thin layer on the CPU die and a very small blob between the spreader and sink. The temperatures certainly look good, but I have mixed thoughts on this whole ordeal at the moment.

You can see the stock TIM and MX-2 results in post #194 and #197 of this thread.


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## peche (Feb 10, 2017)

damric said:


> CLU arrived this week and today I had a chance to apply it and perform testing.  Here's the results:
> 
> Ambient: *18.3C*
> (+/- from stock)
> ...


proud delidder? great, so you got a notable temps drop, happy?
im glad you did it  and nothing odd happened there!

Regards,


----------



## FireFox (Feb 10, 2017)

damric said:


> CLU


CLU= Collaboratory Ultra, right?



damric said:


> There was barely any in the tube.







peche said:


> proud delidder? great, so you got a notable temps drop, happy?
> im glad you did it and nothing odd happened there!
> 
> Regards,



The weird thing is that he said: there was barely in the tube Just enough to get a
very thin layer on the the CPU die and  a
very small blob between the spreader and sink.

Normally there is enough CLU in the Tube.

Weird


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## thesmokingman (Feb 10, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> The weird thing is that he said: there was barely in the tube Just enough to get a
> very thin layer on the the CPU die and  a
> very small blob between the spreader and sink.
> 
> ...



Imo there's enough to spread on one cpu/ihs underside with just the CLU I find stuck to the outside of the syringe or inside the cap on a new tube w/o having to squeeze any out. I might be a lil too frugal lol.


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## damric (Feb 10, 2017)

Maybe it was used. It was suspiciously cheap


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## FireFox (Feb 10, 2017)

damric said:


> Maybe it was used. It was suspiciously cheap



Could be


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## peche (Feb 10, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> The weird thing is that he said: there was barely in the tube Just enough to get a
> very thin layer on the the CPU die and a
> very small blob between the spreader and sink.
> 
> ...


noticed that odd situation wrote down there... 
didn't get the point, i have done 12 delids with the half tube you sent me back like 2 years ago, still have a little for another 2 delids i guess...

Regards,


----------



## FireFox (Feb 10, 2017)

peche said:


> i have done 12 delids with the half tube you sent me back like 2 years ago,



That said, if you delid one CPU per year you're OK for the next 24 years


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## thesmokingman (Feb 10, 2017)

lol


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## peche (Feb 10, 2017)

Knoxx29 said:


> That said, if you delid one CPU per year you're OK for the next 24 years


mostly


----------

