# NVIDIA Reportedly Moving Ampere to 7 nm TSMC in 2021



## Raevenlord (Oct 13, 2020)

A report straight from DigiTimes claims that NVIDIA is looking to upgrade their Ampere consumer GPUs from Samsung's 8 nm to TSMC's 7 nm. According to the source, the volume of this transition should be "very large", but most likely wouldn't reflect the entirety of Ampere's consumer-facing product stack. The report claims that TSMC has become more "friendly" to NVIDIA. This could be because TSMC now has available manufacturing capacity in 7 nm due to some of its clients moving to the company's 5 nm node, or simply because TSMC hadn't believed NVIDIA to consider Samsung as a viable foundry alternative - which it now does - and has thus lowered pricing.

There are various reasons being leveraged at this, none with substantial grounds other than "reported from industry sources". NVIDIA looking for better yields is one of the appointed reasons, as is its history as a TSMC customer. NVIDIA shouldn't have too high a cost porting its manufacturing to TSMC in terms of design changes to the silicon level so as to cater to different characteristics of TSMC's 7 nm, because the company's GA100 GPU (Ampere for the non-consumer market) is already manufactured at TSMC. The next part of this post is mere (relatively informed) speculation, so take that with a saltier disposition than what came before.



 



That NVIDIA is looking to tier its manufacturing process across high-end and the rest of its product stack (with 7 nm for high-end and 8 nm for the rest of it) would become a headache for themselves and for consumers, should NVIDIA just have two suppliers for the same graphics products. There would likely be need for some changes in the power delivery designs, there are a range of new quality assurance tests that have to be taken for the new silicon, and NVIDIA would set itself up for legal troubles should they just silently update the manufacturing process on high-end models - not only would early adopters be understandably miffed about their product having evolved over time, as there could be some claims regarding 8 nm-based models being bought after the 7 nm ones are launched. And if NVIDIA were to put a sticker on retail boxes updating the 8 nm to 7 nm, well, then any user could just decline to purchase any 8 nm cards, and only look for the 7 nm versions, which might leave NVIDIA with a real immovable supply problem.

No. If this report checks out, NVIDIA will likely launch the newly produced top-end Ampere cards (we're thinking RTX 3090, RTX 3080 and RTX 3070) in 7 nm Super versions, taking a page from their RTX 20-series book. The introduction of a higher-performing product built in 7 nm within a whole new series would protect NVIDIA from legal troubles while allowing them to publicly announce the transition. This would keep early adopters "happy" in the respect that this is a whole new product launch - users would receive that much better than by feeling that they were beta testers for NVIDIA's tango with Samsung, as reception for the 20-series Super cards shows. The usage of this new process would also allow NVIDIA to improve performance further over the original 30-series cards, due to lower leakage and higher potential operational frequencies - perhaps in addition to NVIDIA's 20-series strategy of trickling down bigger GPU designs.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## P4-630 (Oct 13, 2020)

_Previous reports pointed out that Nvidia also booked 5 nm production capacity at TSMC and this is probably meant for the upcoming "Hopper" GPUs rumored to release exactly 1 year after the Ampere models. The 2-year release schedule appears to have been reduced to 1 year, since AMD is strongly signaling that it is ready to match Nvidia’s gaming GPUs this year. Team red already has plans to release Navi 21’s successor produced on the 5 nm TSMC nodes at the end of 2021, and Nvidia is most likely not willing to give the competition a head start. _









						Report suggests Nvidia could launch improved RTX 3000 GPUs produced on TSMC's 7 nm node in 2021
					

Is Nvidia ditching Samsung for TSMC in 2021? It looks like Nvidia is not at all pleased with the supply problems created by Samsung's 8 nm nodes with reduced yields and is at least diversifying risk with a significant order of 7 nm chips from TSMC scheduled throughout 2021.




					www.notebookcheck.net


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## ZoneDymo (Oct 13, 2020)

wonder how rich the people at TSMC must be, also poor samsung


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## Vayra86 (Oct 13, 2020)

Yep...

I'm going to sit comfortably on this 1080 for another year, it just got confirmed. Stick that 10GB POS where the sun don't shine tyvm

Smoke > Fire. Always


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## Xaled (Oct 13, 2020)

LoL, so Nvidia just used Samsung to make TSMC feel jealous.
How about Nvidia use both Samsung and TSMC to respond to the supposed high- demand?


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## ViperXTR (Oct 13, 2020)

same for me i guess, had to hold off for now


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## Xex360 (Oct 13, 2020)

Xaled said:


> LoL, so Nvidia just used Samsung to make TSMC feel jealous.
> How about Nvidia use both Samsung and TSMC to respond to the supposed high- demand?


Don't believe so, TSMC has more capacity more that Apple and others are moving to 5nm, nVidia gambled with Samsung and hopefully will pay the price for their stupid pricing.


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## Chrispy_ (Oct 13, 2020)

If you read between the lines, the headline could be "Nvidia so dissatisfied with Samsung's 8nm that they're already planning to abandon it halfway through the current generation"

It doesn't inspire confidence in the 3000-series on sale right now though; Just another thing to add to the 3000-series launch fiasco...


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## EarthDog (Oct 13, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> If you read between the lines, the headline could be "Nvidia so dissatisfied with Samsung's 8nm that they've already made plans to abandon it this generation"
> 
> Doesn't inspire confidence in the 3000-series people can buy right now, though....


That's certainly one way to think about it.


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## Smaeili (Oct 13, 2020)

Would the smaller manufacturing process bring any improvement to thermals/power?


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## Ashtr1x (Oct 13, 2020)

Not going to believe this. How much of an improvement will be TSMC 7nm process will do ? It's not like it will become super fast or clock high, at max it will lower the power consumption, everyone knows that since Pascal this b.s Clock Boost came so I'm thinking the TSMC shift won't magically make the GPUs boost to higher clocks, look at Ryzen 5000, it's on 7nm EUV, 7NP it didn't change the clock speed and we know Ryzen 7nm has been pushed to max out of box, and add that boosting behavior where the clocks change like GPUs. And that VRM component disaster of the AIBs on the Ampere is not at all because of the 8nm node but rather BOM.

TSMC this TSMC that, this Intel screw up gave them too much hype even to the MSM Shill media, a big joke when you actually watch der8aur video of this whole nm marketing drama. And see the Apple A series processors, it's like they came from outer space in Anandtech's Spec scores and etc, but on Load the power consumption is insanely high and then on top you have the Qcomm vs Apple Application/Software performance videos and benches all over the Youtube to tell the real life performance / bang for buck / comparison etc. And to be honest, AMD only managed to beat the Skylake uArch a 5 year old design and 14nm node from 7 years ago in 2020 with Ryzen 5000.

Also Samsung is mentioning their upcoming non custom design (no M cores unlike prev Exynos, similar to the Qcomm post 820, since 820 is the only custom they did after that 810 big fiasco) Exynos 1080 is on 5nm node. So losing up a big contract like Nvidia is insanely bad to them in this pureplay fab industry, as we move to one and only one corporation doing that.


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## ratirt (Oct 13, 2020)

Now that's some sort of news and people should have waited with their purchase. I'm glad I did.
Although I've got a problem with this 8nm Samsung and now 7nm TSMC. At first, NV went with the Samsung 8nm because it is cheaper and matured and wanted to skip the 7nm TSMC because it was much more expensive. I mean that's what the news is. Now NV is going with TSMC's 7nm because? ........  Is it because NAVI is coming and the numbers that have been shown by AMD are correct so it means NV need a node change to make some more performance out of the Ampere cards? So many unknowns.
Really interesting.


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## Vya Domus (Oct 13, 2020)

Story has it Nvidia was pissed about TSMC's prices so they "threatened" them by moving to Samsung in an attempt to drive their prices lower but they didn't budge even after that happened, so now they're coming back with their tail between their legs.

Samsung's nodes are inferior, always have been, even for mobile. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be used but not for 600+ mm^2 behemoths.


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## dorsetknob (Oct 13, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Story has it Nvidia was pissed about TSMC's prices so they went to Samsung in an attempt to drive their prices lower but they didn't budge even after that happened, so now they're coming back with their tail behind their legs.


Be glad that dogs with Diarrhea don't wag their tails


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## bug (Oct 13, 2020)

ZoneDymo said:


> wonder how rich the people at TSMC must be, also poor samsung


Maybe you should look into how much it costs to ramp up a new fab, before wondering about that.
But yes, they wouldn't be doing it if they would be in the red.


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## Luminescent (Oct 13, 2020)

Biggest jump in performance is always from a new node, ampere, big navi....all that crap is nothing without a smaller better node and TSMC knows this, just look at Intel, no matter how good the architecture still they lose because of the old "14nm" node.
TSMC should be getting a lot of credit for the advances they make.


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## Metroid (Oct 13, 2020)

Price and performace will stay the same, power consumption will drop a little, nvidia margin will rise a little.


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## Colddecked (Oct 13, 2020)

Xaled said:


> LoL, so Nvidia just used Samsung to make TSMC feel jealous.
> How about Nvidia use both Samsung and TSMC to respond to the supposed high- demand?



Use both Samsung and TSMC in the same SKU?  That's impossible, they just bought the damn wafers lol... These TSMC 7nm ampere's, if true, will almost certainly carry a super tag or even 4000 series if improvements are big...


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## Chrispy_ (Oct 13, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> Story has it Nvidia was pissed about TSMC's prices so they "threatened" them by moving to Samsung in an attempt to drive their prices lower but they didn't budge even after that happened, so now they're coming back with their tail between their legs.
> 
> Samsung's nodes are inferior, always have been, even for mobile. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be used but not for 600+ mm^2 + behemoths.



Samsung's nodes aren't up to TSMC's standards, but what about GloFo, are they now such a mess that nobody in the CPU or GPU business dares touch them?


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## renz496 (Oct 13, 2020)

"The report claims that TSMC has become more "friendly" to NVIDIA."

not that TSMC is afraid of samsung but they probably try to make sure samsung to not becoming a formidable competitor in the future.


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## PerfectWave (Oct 13, 2020)

No space for NVIDIA at TSMC...
Nvidia told us that they cannt keep up with order of their Ampere GPU cos of high demand not cos of Samsung XD


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## Chrispy_ (Oct 13, 2020)

Smaeili said:


> Would the smaller manufacturing process bring any improvement to thermals/power?


Hopefully yes, but until the end products start rolling out of the fab, nobody will know - not even Nvidia.

One of the problems with Samsung 8nm is that it was leakier and less efficient than expected - way too late to change things at that point. TSMC's 5nm could be great, it could be awful. We won't know for several months yet.


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## birdie (Oct 13, 2020)

> That NVIDIA is looking to tier its manufacturing process across high-end and the rest of its product stack (with 7 nm for high-end and 8 nm for the rest of it) would become a headache for themselves and for consumers, should NVIDIA just have two suppliers for the same graphics products. There would likely be need for some changes in the power delivery designs, there are a range of new quality assurance tests that have to be taken for the new silicon, and NVIDIA would set itself up for legal troubles should they just silently update the manufacturing process on high-end models - not only would early adopters be understandably miffed about their product having evolved over time, as there could be some claims regarding 8 nm-based models being bought after the 7 nm ones are launched. And if NVIDIA were to put a sticker on retail boxes updating the 8 nm to 7 nm, well, then any user could just decline to purchase any 8 nm cards, and only look for the 7 nm versions, which might leave NVIDIA with a real immovable supply problem.



This entire paragraph is, to put it mildly, some pure bullocks not corroborated by any historical evidence and the evidence says there have been no issues in the past whatsoever, for instance, the GeForce 9 (9xxx) series was produced using both 65 and 55nm nodes and no one cried foul. And it's not the only series which used several nodes simultaneously. As long as products are priced correctly and have proper specs, people will be OK.



Chrispy_ said:


> If you read between the lines, the headline could be "Nvidia so dissatisfied with Samsung's 8nm that they're already planning to abandon it halfway through the current generation"
> 
> It doesn't inspire confidence in the 3000-series on sale right now though; Just another thing to add to the 3000-series launch fiasco...



NVIDIA grossly underestimated the demand for the RTX 3000 series as way too many GeForce 1000 series owners decided to upgrade. "Fiasco" is purely your gall and nothing else. The new series has been extremely successful so far.



ratirt said:


> At first, NV went with the Samsung 8nm because it is cheaper and matured and wanted to skip the 7nm TSMC because it was much more expensive.



And your official source for this statement is ...? Or you're based off some wild rumors on the net?


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## mrkuro (Oct 13, 2020)

Maybe that's why shortages in supply of GeForce RTX 3080 and RTX 3090 graphics cards could persist until 2021? This hopefully is not true, or else people will get mad


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## gridracedriver (Oct 13, 2020)

this could waste nVidia more time on 5nm and MCM compared to AMD


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## Chomiq (Oct 13, 2020)

They might pull it off for Ampere refresh, basically Super series, but I doubt they'll do it with current 30xx lineup.


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## Luminescent (Oct 13, 2020)

PerfectWave said:


> No space for NVIDIA at TSMC...
> Nvidia told us that they cannt keep up with order of their Ampere GPU cos of high demand not cos of Samsung XD


Suureee, reality hits when you look at Steam hardware survey.


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## Fleurious (Oct 13, 2020)

Was planning to get an Asus Tuf 3080 once available.  Guess i’ll wait to see what comes from this.   Not in a rush anyways.


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## AnarchoPrimitiv (Oct 13, 2020)

Although this will arouse personal attacks against me, I wish TSMC would tell Nvidia "no" so that Nvidia would be force to lie in the bed they made for themselves.  Also, simply for the sake of benefiting the consumer, any advantage AMD could gain to improve their market share, revenue/profits, and thereby invest that in R&D, to level the playing field would be an overall gain for the entire community. 

Now, let's not take a shortcut to thinking and accuse me of being an AMD fanboy, as if AMD's and Nvidia's positions were switched, I'd STILL be advocating for the same thing.  We have all witnessed what increased competition did for the CPU market and broke a multi-year stagnation, so how anybody would not want the same for the GPU market is beyond me.



Ashtr1x said:


> .And to be honest, AMD only managed to beat the Skylake uArch a 5 year old design and 14nm node from 7 years ago in 2020 with Ryzen 5000.




Even IF this is true, don't ignore the fact that AMD literally has a *fraction *of the R&D budget and resources that Intel has.  The fact that AMD has been able to catch up with and now overtake Intel while being seriously financially hamstrung is unbelievably impressive, and is literally a feat that has never been accomplished before (no, Cyrix was not able to overtake Intel). Why is there this constant effort by some to minimize, reduce and outright take this accomplishment away from AMD? Hypothetically, speaking, if if AMD was 10% behind Intel in every metric, it'd STILL be impressive because they're managing to do it with a fraction of the resources. Another way of saying it is that there is *literally *no excuse for Intel to be beaten by AMD. 

I think the same can be said for AMD in the GPU market.... Nvidia has at least three times the resources of AMD's graphics division, and yet, AMD is still able to compete in the tiers with the largest T.A.M., and this is seriously impressive... With Nvidia's drastic advantages in resources and even talent, it can be argued that AMD shouldn't even have a presence in the GPU market, but not only do they have a presence, but they're poised to match Nvidia in performance, possibly beat them in value and probably in efficiency, all while having a quarter of the market share Nvidia does and a fraction of the money. And in spite of all these material realities, a large portion of the community continually bashes AMD for not outperforming Nvidia in every metric! 

I'm sure some will write this off as some fanboy rant, but these are literally the undeniable facts of the situation, namely that AMD has drastically fewer resources than both Intel and Nvidia and yet are able to compete (Nvidia) and even overtake(Intel) their competitors... How is it that there are those that are not impressed by this?


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## fynxer (Oct 13, 2020)

CANCEL ALL ORDERS and wait for 7nm 3080 Super instead


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## ODOGG26 (Oct 13, 2020)

Can't believe people really believe this. For one, there's not enough 7nm wafers for them now. Two, do you know how long it would take for this if even possible to come to market (guess is like 6-8 months) and then be obsolete months later once Hopper comes out. Some people will believe anything these days without even stopping to think for a second. AMD has TSMC 7nm pretty much locked up. Their first in line for any additional wafers that comes available. Plus that would be too costly for NVIDIA to change to TSMC for only a few months to then change to maybe 5nm for hopper months later. .


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## Thretosix (Oct 13, 2020)

I would think they would bundle this with new VRAM from Micron and list them as 3080 Super / 3090 Super or ti.  It's why I've held off upgrading my GTX 1080, I feel like I was screwed over with the GTX 1080 ti.  Not making that mistake again.  If they don't then Nvidia will lose out on my purchase.  Not that it really matters to them.


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## Turmania (Oct 13, 2020)

What I read between the lines is that, they are not happy/satisfied with Samsung for whatever their reasons are and are moving to TSMC, and will use 7nm process when the rest would probably be on 5nm. 
I personally want to see more competitio  to TSMC at the moment they are too far ahaed from rest.


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## vega22 (Oct 13, 2020)

Am I the only 1 thinking NV realise they can be behind on fab process and still hang in the performance and efficiency stakes so they can do that and save BOM? 

We all know it's all about the bottom line for them so untill they need to spend for the latest fab they won't.


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## Anymal (Oct 13, 2020)

mrkuro said:


> Maybe that's why shortages in supply of GeForce RTX 3080 and RTX 3090 graphics cards could persist until 2021? This hopefully is not true, or else people will get mad


CEO said its a demand problem, not supply. They have better supply than at Pascal and Turing launch


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## kiriakost (Oct 13, 2020)

Turmania said:


> What I read between the lines is that, they are not happy/satisfied with Samsung for whatever their reasons are and are moving to TSMC, and will use 7nm process when the rest would probably be on 5nm.
> I personally want to see more competition  to TSMC at the moment they are too far ahead from rest.



I have great skills to read behind the lines. 
The problem under my translation,  this is the volume of production that NVIDIA this can adsorb.
What is not cost effective for Samsung this seems as cost effective to some one else.


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## Franzen4Real (Oct 13, 2020)

Seems similar to the AMD Polaris 14nm-->12nm shrink. It's not going to result in more transistors in the same given area, but instead just a higher power efficiency with the same number of transistors. So a typical cadence of new arch-->lower power-->rinse/repeat. Though I'm sure there are many more considerations going into this on the business side, than just an increase in power efficiency on the technical side.









						AMD to Build 2nd Gen. Ryzen and Radeon Vega on GloFo 12nm
					

Not to be held back by silicon fabrication process limitations like in the past, AMD will build its second-generation Ryzen CPUs and Radeon Vega GPUs on the new 12 nanometer LP (low power) FinFET process by GlobalFoundries. From the looks of it, "2nd generation Ryzen" doesn't seem to be the same...




					www.techpowerup.com
				











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AMD's Radeon RX 590 is based on a 12nm Polaris GPU designed to fill the void between Radeon RX 580 and Vega 56. While it certainly is faster, higher power consumption hampers the company's performance per watt ratio.




					www.tomshardware.com


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## Frick (Oct 13, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Samsung's nodes aren't up to TSMC's standards, but what about GloFo, are they now such a mess that nobody in the CPU or GPU business dares touch them?



Not really a mess, they have just jumped off that ship and are focusing on other stuff, like 5G RF chips, which will be/is a huge market. The company is [probably, as it's a private company so we don't actually know] better off for it, seeing as how insanely expensive and difficult it is to get volumes on <10nm stuff. People seem to think that the only chips in existance are bleeding edge CPU's and GPU's.


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## berjerac (Oct 13, 2020)

Anymal said:


> CEO said its a demand problem, not supply. They have better supply than at Pascal and Turing launch


Because, obviously, as many times history showed, CEOs don't lie


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## HD64G (Oct 13, 2020)

It will be a refresh that will allow a bit higher boost clocks and lower power draw. But soon after that RDNA3 will be made on 5nm. All signs show that TSMC is much better for big chips than Samsung at least for now.


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## sergionography (Oct 13, 2020)

Ashtr1x said:


> Not going to believe this. How much of an improvement will be TSMC 7nm process will do ? It's not like it will become super fast or clock high, at max it will lower the power consumption, everyone knows that since Pascal this b.s Clock Boost came so I'm thinking the TSMC shift won't magically make the GPUs boost to higher clocks, look at Ryzen 5000, it's on 7nm EUV, 7NP it didn't change the clock speed and we know Ryzen 7nm has been pushed to max out of box, and add that boosting behavior where the clocks change like GPUs. And that VRM component disaster of the AIBs on the Ampere is not at all because of the 8nm node but rather BOM.
> 
> TSMC this TSMC that, this Intel screw up gave them too much hype even to the MSM Shill media, a big joke when you actually watch der8aur video of this whole nm marketing drama. And see the Apple A series processors, it's like they came from outer space in Anandtech's Spec scores and etc, but on Load the power consumption is insanely high and then on top you have the Qcomm vs Apple Application/Software performance videos and benches all over the Youtube to tell the real life performance / bang for buck / comparison etc. And to be honest, AMD only managed to beat the Skylake uArch a 5 year old design and 14nm node from 7 years ago in 2020 with Ryzen 5000.
> 
> Also Samsung is mentioning their upcoming non custom design (no M cores unlike prev Exynos, similar to the Qcomm post 820, since 820 is the only custom they did after that 810 big fiasco) Exynos 1080 is on 5nm node. So losing up a big contract like Nvidia is insanely bad to them in this pureplay fab industry, as we move to one and only one corporation doing that.



AMD has been beating skyake since zen1. Winning is more than just IPC. The MCM approach is what allowed AMD to win. Each generation for the past 3 years has pushed intel for more and more desperate measures way outside of their historic trends. 4 to 6 to 8 and then to 10 core flagships back to back after 10 years of capping at 4 cores. As for Nvidia, the move to 7nm would be much needed. Ampere is a pretty bad architecture by Nvidia standards. They presented a less than average 30% improvement compared to last gen, but at up to 350w TDP. That's unprecedented.









						NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Founders Edition Review - Must-Have for 4K Gamers
					

NVIDIA's new GeForce RTX 3080 "Ampere" Founders Edition is a truly impressive graphics card. It not only looks fantastic, performance is also better than even the RTX 2080 Ti. In our RTX 3080 Founders Edition review, we're also taking a close look at the new cooler, which runs quietly without...




					www.techpowerup.com
				



Just look at those numbers...









						NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Founders Edition Review - Must-Have for 4K Gamers
					

NVIDIA's new GeForce RTX 3080 "Ampere" Founders Edition is a truly impressive graphics card. It not only looks fantastic, performance is also better than even the RTX 2080 Ti. In our RTX 3080 Founders Edition review, we're also taking a close look at the new cooler, which runs quietly without...




					www.techpowerup.com
				



And that performance per watt is just sad for a new gen architecture. RDNA2 will most definitely do better in performance/watt even if it doesn't compete at the highest end


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## mtcn77 (Oct 13, 2020)

There is this talk of uniform load vectorization taking place inside Nvidia and Intel's gpu drivers, so when that happens for AMD we'll get a clearer picture.


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## Fluffmeister (Oct 13, 2020)

It's a shame we are moving to a single fab world, now get in line!


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## TechLurker (Oct 13, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Samsung's nodes aren't up to TSMC's standards, but what about GloFo, are they now such a mess that nobody in the CPU or GPU business dares touch them?


AMD still uses them; partly to continue fulfilling their contract, and also to produce budget parts and sections of CPUs that don't scale down well (like the I/O die). The Polaris cards are still around (both as a value proposition and helping use up wafer agreements), select Zen 1000 series CPUs were upgraded with 12nm and Zen+ refinements (the "AF" sub-series), and GloFo has shifted towards producing chips for other tech companies not chasing the bleeding edge, like 5G, IoT, and so forth.

GloFo just isn't on the leading edge any more, but they are still competitive on modern nodes (12nm and above). They had potential with their early experimental 7nm processes rivaling early TMSC 7nm, but they couldn't afford to make the jump/full conversion, which is why AMD was able to aggressively renegotiate the Wafer Supply Agreement and reduce their reliance on GloFo.


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## thesmokingman (Oct 13, 2020)

Hello AMD...


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## evernessince (Oct 13, 2020)

vega22 said:


> Am I the only 1 thinking NV realise they can be behind on fab process and still hang in the performance and efficiency stakes so they can do that and save BOM?
> 
> We all know it's all about the bottom line for them so untill they need to spend for the latest fab they won't.



AMD has stated a 50% improvement to performance per watt for RDNA2.  Given that RDNA1 was already on part with Turing, which is essentially the same in PPW as Ampere, it is going to be very hard for Nvidia to maintain an edge in efficiency unless AMD clock their cards way past the sweet spot.  Given the clocks on the consoles being between 2.1 GHz and 2.35 GHz, I'd guess that 2.1GHz is the sweet spot whereas 2.35 GHz is closer to the higher clocks and less efficient.  AMD could very well launch both a base model and an XT model following the 2.1 GHz 2.35 GHz pattern


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## Diverge (Oct 13, 2020)

Sometimes smaller die has more leakage, and uses more power. Sometimes not. Sometimes allows for higher clocks, sometimes not. So no one really knows anything until they actually manufacture them at TSMC.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 13, 2020)

Diverge said:


> Sometimes smaller die has more leakage, and uses more power. Sometimes not. Sometimes allows for higher clocks, sometimes not. So no one really knows anything until they actually manufacture them at *TSMC*.


I see what you did there.


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## kiriakost (Oct 13, 2020)

Diverge said:


> Sometimes smaller die has more leakage



Do not mention this at INTEL engineers, they will have strong laughs.


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## Anymal (Oct 13, 2020)

***


evernessince said:


> AMD has stated a 50% improvement to performance per watt for RDNA2.  Given that RDNA1 was already on part with Turing, which is essentially the same in PPW as Ampere, it is going to be very hard for Nvidia to maintain an edge in efficiency unless AMD clock their cards way past the sweet spot.  Given the clocks on the consoles being between 2.1 GHz and 2.35 GHz, I'd guess that 2.1GHz is the sweet spot whereas 2.35 GHz is closer to the higher clocks and less efficient.  AMD could very well launch both a base model and an XT model following the 2.1 GHz 2.35 GHz pattern


...Given that RDNA1 was already on part with Turing, which is essentially the same in PPW as Ampere, *NOT!*


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## Diverge (Oct 13, 2020)

kiriakost said:


> Do not mention this at INTEL engineers, they will have strong laughs.



At a former employer, we used to have those intel space heaters in our lab. I used to get to play with all the latest motherboard and chipset combinations for validation of USB products.


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## Exyvia (Oct 13, 2020)

Colddecked said:


> Use both Samsung and TSMC in the same SKU?  That's impossible, they just bought the damn wafers lol... These TSMC 7nm ampere's, if true, will almost certainly carry a super tag or even 4000 series if improvements are big...



You cannot use the same design in the core for both Samsung and TSMC due to contracts, they'll need to develop another - albeit similarly design to migrate to TSMC.

Samsung 8nm is equivalent to TSMC 10nm which is equivalent to Intel 14nm.


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## quadibloc (Oct 13, 2020)

Given how hard it has been for Nvidia to meet demand for the 3080 (and even the 3090!) no wonder they want to make use of as much capacity as possible. Whether the 7nm GPUs will have names like 3080 SUPER instead of, say, 3080+ or 3080A with maybe only a very slight performance increase, though, is something we'll have to wait and see.


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## Nephilim666 (Oct 13, 2020)

Unless there is full disclosure of shipped units the whole demand/supply debate is fruitless. I would assume that they are severely supply constrained looking at the shipped numbers that have leaked in specific regions.
I'm upgrading from Vega 64 so I've saved and ordered a 3090. If AMD announce a GPU that is better than a 3080 in terms of performance at 4k with RT on then I'll just cancel my 3090 preorder and wait for the AMD card since it will likely be vastly more efficient.


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## Camm (Oct 14, 2020)

I've wondered how Nvidia could respond to RDNA2, as the 3080\3090 really don't have anyway to make a Super\Ti version.

Guess we just found out, move to TSMC 7nm,and clocks above 2Ghz should become achievable, there's your Super parts, phase out non-Super.

That being said, how much capacity does TSMC 7nm actually have for Nvidia, since WSA's are usually negotiated a year or so in advance.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Oct 14, 2020)

Hard to have sympathy for early adopters; they regularly get screwed over and probably repeat the same mistake every time there's a new product. Roll on Big Navi.


----------



## Imsochobo (Oct 14, 2020)

quadibloc said:


> Given how hard it has been for Nvidia to meet demand for the 3080 (and even the 3090!) no wonder they want to make use of as much capacity as possible. Whether the 7nm GPUs will have names like 3080 SUPER instead of, say, 3080+ or 3080A with maybe only a very slight performance increase, though, is something we'll have to wait and see.



It's not a capacity issue.
If there is nothing coming into etailers which sometimes disclose it and you see how little they move.. 200 gpu's in a month lot of demand ? 
when they are selling 1000 a month of a single sku every month prior to announcement.

Samsung 8nm might not yield the behemoth chips, maybe g6x production is struggling, there is a lot of new things here for nvidia and they rushed it a bit too.


----------



## Mussels (Oct 14, 2020)

shit like this makes me wonder if one day, i'll regret my 3080 purchase





if its even arrived before 2021, that is


----------



## wolf (Oct 14, 2020)

This was bound to happen sooner or later IMO, not fussed at all. Products get iterated on, not the first time we've seen it and will be far from the last.


Vayra86 said:


> Stick that 10GB POS where the sun don't shine tyvm


Damn it's a pity it's so fast and runs so cool and quiet, otherwise I guess I'd be pissed.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Oct 14, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Yep...
> 
> I'm going to sit comfortably on this 1080 for another year, it just got confirmed. Stick that 10GB POS where the sun don't shine tyvm
> 
> Smoke > Fire. Always


What's wrong with 10GB or VRAM? You are playing on a 1080p monitor bro      
You only need that much if you play on 4K with resolution scaling and all BS


----------



## Mussels (Oct 14, 2020)

I mean, as someone who'd have got a 3090 if they were in stock even i accept 10GB is enough for a very long time... games will simply be optimised for it. 8GB is still gunna be the sweet spot for a very long time, games will simply target that since its so common.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Oct 14, 2020)

Prima.Vera said:


> What's wrong with 10GB or VRAM? You are playing on a 1080p monitor bro
> You only need that much if you play on 4K with resolution scaling and all BS



What sort of knob would buy 3080 for 1080p  gaming. It's a 1440p Ultra high setting or 4K card all the way. 1080p will be handled with ease by 3060 for $300 less.


----------



## Mussels (Oct 14, 2020)

Minus Infinity said:


> What sort of knob would buy 3080 for 1080p  gaming. It's a 1440p Ultra high setting or 4K card all the way. 1080p will be handled with ease by 3060 for $300 less.



high refresh 1080p totally makes sense for them? or a 1080p user + VR...

WE DONT JUDGE AROUND HERE. EXCEPT APPLE PRODUCTS.


----------



## renz496 (Oct 14, 2020)

Camm said:


> I've wondered how Nvidia could respond to RDNA2, as the 3080\3090 really don't have anyway to make a Super\Ti version.
> 
> Guess we just found out, move to TSMC 7nm,and clocks above 2Ghz should become achievable, there's your Super parts, phase out non-Super.
> 
> That being said, how much capacity does TSMC 7nm actually have for Nvidia, since WSA's are usually negotiated a year or so in advance.



just look how big nvidia A100 chips are. if they move to TSMC then they got the limit up to 800mm2 for their biggest chip. right now GA102 is 628mm2 using samsung 8nm process node. need more performance? just make bigger chip. capacity wise TSMC could give some to nvidia. AMD most likely not going to get all that space that being left by apple and huawei. even if the WSA need to be negotiated much earlier nvidia is one of TSMC longest partner since late 90s. in 2012 nvidia are complaining about not getting enough capacity to meet their demand and a few weeks after that TSMC publically announcing that they were giving some of AMD and Qualcomm 28nm capacity to nvidia. they will not going to take AMD capacity this time but TSMC could reserve some space leaved by apple and huawei to nvidia. nvidia after all still making their A100 at TSMC.


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## Camm (Oct 14, 2020)

renz496 said:


> just look how big nvidia A100 chips are. if they move to TSMC then they got the limit up to 800mm2



A completely new design sure, but I highly doubt Nvidia can bring to market a new chip in a year. It'll be an iteration on what they have. A100 is also too far removed from GA102 to be useable. A non-cut GA102 would be the largest Nvidia could make, which with enhanced yields, is certainly possible, but as we've seen from the 3080 -> 3090, there's fuck all performance left in terms of size increase.



renz496 said:


> AMD most likely not going to get all that space that being left by apple and huawei.



AMD has repeatedly been shown by TSMC to be a priority customer for 7nm capacity, which is likely due to AMD wafer agreements having options for extra capacity as they become available, where as Nvidia likely does not have those options in place.


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## okbuddy (Oct 14, 2020)

but they said 5nm


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## renz496 (Oct 14, 2020)

Camm said:


> A completely new design sure, but I highly doubt Nvidia can bring to market a new chip in a year. It'll be an iteration on what they have. A100 is also too far removed from GA102 to be useable. A non-cut GA102 would be the largest Nvidia could make, which with enhanced yields, is certainly possible, but as we've seen from the 3080 -> 3090, there's fuck all performance left in terms of size increase.
> 
> 
> 
> AMD has repeatedly been shown by TSMC to be a priority customer for 7nm capacity, which is likely due to AMD wafer agreements having options for extra capacity as they become available, where as Nvidia likely does not have those options in place.



even so TSMC cannot give AMD all of those extra capacity. TSMC for their part also need to look after their relationship with other chip maker. hence when apple offering TSMC to be their exclusive foundry TSMC refusing to do that. TSMC can't burn the bridge with other chip maker just to satisfy AMD needs. and look what being said in this article in the first place: TSMC is becoming more "friendly" towards nvidia. that's more or less TSMC is asking nvidia to fab their stuff at TSMC. it is not just about their relationship with various chip maker but TSMC also are wary about their competitor in this fab business namely samsung. with TSMC being over crowded some of the big names in the industry (like Qualcomm) start looking at samsung as an alternative to fab their chip. nvidia end up using samsung for all their gaming ampere chip is a big win for samsung because nvidia is giving samsung an experience that they never had before: making big chips which is in the past only TSMC capable of. if samsung keep attracting those big chip maker towards their fab in a few years samsung will close the gap with TSMC. samsung might as well win the contract for apple once again. samsung working with the likes of nvidia and qualcomm could increase samsung expertise in the future. TSMC is well aware about this because some of the success they had today can be attributed to the crazy work that they had done with nvidia since late 90s.


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## PerfectWave (Oct 14, 2020)

Luminescent said:


> Suureee, reality hits when you look at Steam hardware survey.



Steam survevy ask also to have data from my virtual machine lol ... really a proof!


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## Vayra86 (Oct 14, 2020)

ODOGG26 said:


> Can't believe people really believe this. For one, there's not enough 7nm wafers for them now. Two, do you know how long it would take for this if even possible to come to market (guess is like 6-8 months) and then be obsolete months later once Hopper comes out. Some people will believe anything these days without even stopping to think for a second. AMD has TSMC 7nm pretty much locked up. Their first in line for any additional wafers that comes available. Plus that would be too costly for NVIDIA to change to TSMC for only a few months to then change to maybe 5nm for hopper months later. .



Refresh / SUPER line up. Just wait for it.


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## Mastakony (Oct 14, 2020)

ZoneDymo said:


> wonder how rich the people at TSMC must be, also poor samsung



Samsung won't take offense...
Nvidia is just ridiculous for this moveand prove that RTX 3000 was a quick release cause they fear AMD...
AMD has a REAL new architecture...

The only reason I could buy an RTX is my Nvidia Gsync screen


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## Flanker (Oct 14, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Refresh / SUPER line up. Just wait for it.


Reminds me of the 8800GTX --> 9800GTX days


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## Shatun_Bear (Oct 14, 2020)

320W 10GB 3080 will always be a joke. This is another slap in the face from Nvidia to their loyal fans. How much more can they take seems to be Huang's game.

Because a 20GB 3080 on TSMC will not only clock higher but do so whilst consuming ~30% less watts.



Chrispy_ said:


> Samsung's nodes aren't up to TSMC's standards, but what about GloFo, are they now such a mess that nobody in the CPU or GPU business dares touch them?



GloFo couldnt get their 7nm up and running so abandoned chasing the cutting edge of node development and is concentrating on 12nm and older nodes for customers not at the bleeding edge.


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## Vayra86 (Oct 14, 2020)

Shatun_Bear said:


> 320W 10GB 3080 will always be a joke. This is another slap in the face from Nvidia to their loyal fans. How much more can they take seems to be Huang's game.
> 
> Because a 20GB 3080 on TSMC will not only clock higher but do so whilst consuming ~30% less watts.
> 
> ...



I wonder what pixie dust you're on lately but 30%? Lmao. Don't get too enthusiastic now


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## Chrispy_ (Oct 14, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> I wonder what pixie dust you're on lately but 30%? Lmao. Don't get too enthusiastic now


The only same-product, different-process jump I can think of was Vega64 > Radeon VII and that was about 30% faster for the same power draw (or you could save 30% power to match the Vega64's performance).

It's not a single apple-to-apples easy number as this was GloFo to TSMC, 8GB to 16GB, and 64CU vs 60CU but it's probably the closest comparison of 14nm to 7nm there is because at least the class of product and architecture remain completely unchanged (both a ~300W, 60-ish CU, HBM2, GCN 5, 2048-bit design running on identical drivers and software stack, both available to the market simultaneously).

30% may not be accurate but it's kind of in line with TSMC's claims about their 7nm node - when it first launched TSMC were saying that it could go 30% faster at the same power budget or up to 50% lower power at the same performance levels. "Up to" comes with all the usual marketing-speak caveats, ofc.


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## EarthDog (Oct 14, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> I wonder what pixie dust you're on lately but 30%? Lmao. Don't get too enthusiastic now


Whatever it is... it's clearly uncut.


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## Colddecked (Oct 14, 2020)

Minus Infinity said:


> What sort of knob would buy 3080 for 1080p  gaming. It's a 1440p Ultra high setting or 4K card all the way. 1080p will be handled with ease by 3060 for $300 less.



Sometimes people don't upgrade their monitors until they have the graphics card to do so... that's what I would do honestly.


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## Shatun_Bear (Oct 14, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> I wonder what pixie dust you're on lately but 30%? Lmao. Don't get too enthusiastic now



You have a habit of quoting my posts, I feel flattered by your attention. 

Yes 30% Einstein, it doesn't take a physicist to work out this is the ballpark we'd land in if the 3080 was on TSMC instead of Samsung's poor 8nm. In fact, rumour has it there were engineering samples of Ampere cards using TSMCs process node. I looked at some of the figures and let's just put it this way; they weren't worse than what we ended up getting from Nvidia in end.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2020)

I swear to God, I wasn't expecting this much amusement when I started pecking at Samsung the potato.


Spoiler: how to cast a flame war






lemkeant said:


> For those of us looking at these cards, this Samsung 8nm process is making me a bit nervous compared to TSMC 7nm...





mtcn77 said:


> Where could we have seen this? 3... 2... 1...





R-T-B said:


> You guys act like the process node is going to make a difference vs AMD's historic incompetence with energy consumption. I doubt it will, frankly.





mtcn77 said:


> Thanks for the company, dude. I couldn't live with myself without some juicy green team red team beef, although I got no 'steak' in the discussion.
> I don't post these things just because I don't like Samsung, it is to spite you wonderful gentlemen with incendiary comments. Because it is not about Samsung's process, but irrational teamster preferences.
> I better take my opinion, elsewhere... nobody can see without their colored goggles here.





R-T-B said:


> No, but watts are.





mtcn77 said:


> Funny you would go there. Samsung isn't your bread and butter foundry. Expect a few hiccups.
> 
> If we continue, I'll have to resort to Mortal Kombat jokes;
> _- "You are still trying to win?"_
> Let's not go there pal, I've never missed my common troll courtesy.





R-T-B said:


> You assume I am trolling.  I'm not.  You'll end up playing with yourself.
> 
> I just can't see the watts on Samsung 7nm being worse than Turing, which is about what it'd need to matter I think.





mtcn77 said:


> Hmm, never thought it that way. It is quite an uncommon way of thinking. Turing is neither the competition, nor made at the same foundry, but hold on to your beliefs, I guess...


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## Vayra86 (Oct 14, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> The only same-product, different-process jump I can think of was Vega64 > Radeon VII and that was about 30% faster for the same power draw (or you could save 30% power to match the Vega64's performance).
> 
> It's not a single apple-to-apples easy number as this was GloFo to TSMC, 8GB to 16GB, and 64CU vs 60CU but it's probably the closest comparison of 14nm to 7nm there is because at least the class of product and architecture remain completely unchanged (both a ~300W, 60-ish CU, HBM2, GCN 5, 2048-bit design running on identical drivers and software stack, both available to the market simultaneously).
> 
> 30% may not be accurate but it's kind of in line with TSMC's claims about their 7nm node - when it first launched TSMC were saying that it could go 30% faster at the same power budget or up to 50% lower power at the same performance levels. "Up to" comes with all the usual marketing-speak caveats, ofc.



The Radeon VII also lost about a 25% of its die size... do you think this is the sort of difference between Samsung 8nm and TSMC 7nm?

Maybe I missed something, its an honest question... but I thought the gap from 14nm to 7nm is pretty substantial.



Shatun_Bear said:


> You have a habit of quoting my posts, I feel flattered by your attention.
> 
> Yes 30% Einstein, it doesn't take a physicist to work out this is the ballpark we'd land in if the 3080 was on TSMC instead of Samsung's poor 8nm. In fact, rumour has it there were engineering samples of Ampere cards using TSMCs process node. I looked at some of the figures and let's just put it this way; they weren't worse than what we ended up getting from Nvidia in end.



Please share them, I'm genuinely interested.



Colddecked said:


> Sometimes people don't upgrade their monitors until they have the graphics card to do so... that's what I would do honestly.



Exactly. The other way around is utterly shite.


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## JayR (Oct 14, 2020)

With the current back log of RTX 3080 orders going into 2021 and AMD back logs for PS5, Xbox Series X and RDNA 2 on 7nm. I don't see NVIDIA changing to 7nm any where in the first half of 2021. They might not at all as 3080 with 20GB VRAM is already going to be released in December with the same core count. That is your 3080 Super. NVIDIA went Samsung because TMSC can't meet demand and I call bullshit on this "leak". Overclocking the 3080 gets you within 5fps of a stock 3090. It's only 10% faster then the 3080. The 20gb VRAM is the Super the Ti if there is one will be 5% faster.


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## ODOGG26 (Oct 14, 2020)

JayR said:


> With the current back log of RTX 3080 orders going into 2021 and AMD back logs for PS5, Xbox Series X and RDNA 2 on 7nm. I don't see NVIDIA changing to 7nm any where in the first half of 2021. They might not at all as 3080 with 20GB VRAM is already going to be released in December with the same core count. That is your 3080 Super. NVIDIA went Samsung because TMSC can't meet demand and I call bullshit on this "leak". Overclocking the 3080 gets you within 5fps of a stock 3090. It's only 10% faster then the 3080. The 20gb VRAM is the Super the Ti if there is one will be 5% faster.



Why are you providing an excuse for NVIDIA low supply. They went Samsung because they tried to play their usual game in getting Samsung and TSMC to compete with each other on price but that strategy failed miserably. AMD bought up all Apple 7nm orders once they moved on to 5nm and they bought up all stock left over from Huawei ban. Plus they are first in line for any additional 7nm stock that becomes available. And from reports, the same trend will follow with 5nm as they are like second to apple for 5nm. So it's not because TSMC could not supply the chips its because NVIDIA squandered their opportunity to secure orders trying to play games. Not doing their due diligence and analyzing the market that has a resurgent AMD who has tons of product to release on 7nm. It's all NVIDIA's fault and no one else. No excuses


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## mtcn77 (Oct 14, 2020)

ODOGG26 said:


> Why are you providing an excuse for NVIDIA low supply. They went Samsung because they tried to play their usual game in getting Samsung and TSMC to compete with each other on price but that strategy failed miserably. AMD bought up all Apple 7nm orders once they moved on to 5nm and they bought up all stock left over from Huawei ban. Plus they are first in line for any additional 7nm stock that becomes available. And from reports, the same trend will follow with 5nm as they are like second to apple for 5nm. So it's not because TSMC could not supply the chips its because NVIDIA squandered their opportunity to secure orders trying to play games not doing their due diligence and analyzing the market and a researching AMD who has tons of product to release on 7nm. It's all NVIDIA's fault and no one else. No excuses


I think I hit the nail on the head a while back. Nvidia jumped the gun too early.


TheGuruStud said:


> Bye, bye, don't let the door hit ya on the way out, Huang.





mtcn77 said:


> Samsung's gate all around might lower parasitic capacitance. This might be important in the effective tdp, since big chips leak more.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Oct 15, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> The Radeon VII also lost about a 25% of its die size... do you think this is the sort of difference between Samsung 8nm and TSMC 7nm?
> 
> Maybe I missed something, its an honest question... but I thought the gap from 14nm to 7nm is pretty substantial.



TBH I haven't looked into transistor density of Samsung vs TSMC. You can't really compare that too closely - it was revealed that Intel's 10nm is pretty damn close to TSMC's 7nm but I haven't seen a similar article comparing Samsung's 8nm yet. One thing's for sure though; the process node name (in nm) bears very little resemblence to the actual transistor density - it's just one dimension of several that drive the actual transistor density. Radeon VII was just a die shrink (it still had Vega's 64CU, they just disabled 4 to improve yields) so if you consider 14nm to 7nm is a 75% area reduction (and 50% linear reduction) then the fact they only got 25% of the area reduction from the process shrink demonstrates how pointless and inaccurate the process node name is.

What matters far more in the discussion about switching from Samsung to TSMC isn't really the name of the node but how efficient it is.

Samsung's 8nm let Nvidia build GA-102 with 50% more transistors than TU-102 but it used 50% more power too, making it roughly on par with TSMC's 2017 12FFN process, almost four years behind the curve - not exactly something you want in your flagship product.

I'm not 100% sure which of TSMC's nodes RDNA2 and Zen3 are being made on. N7P (or LP) is the new normal 7nm from TSMC - it's a tweaked process that clocks a bit higher than the original N7 process that Radeon VII and Zen2 launched on, but it's the same size, density and of comparable efficiency. N7FF+ (often written as 7nm+) is the EUV lithography that comes with a ~20% transistor density improvement and supposedly a 4.5% efficiency increase going by TSMC's own figures.


----------



## evernessince (Oct 15, 2020)

Anymal said:


> ***
> 
> ...Given that RDNA1 was already on part with Turing, which is essentially the same in PPW as Ampere, *NOT!*



Navi is actually slightly more power efficient if you compare the 5700 to the 2060 / 2070, the cards which it was competing against.


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## R-T-B (Oct 15, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> I swear to God, I wasn't expecting this much amusement when I started pecking at Samsung the potato.



You do realize my points still stand, right?

AMD has yet to launch, and it has yet to be worse than Turing.  You are again, playing with yourself.  Have fun with that.


----------



## mtcn77 (Oct 15, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> You do realize my points still stand, right?


How could it not be, I pull repositories from 2 years back, but your 2 month old frameset is still not challenged... oh, I be getting ya loud and clear!


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## Zach_01 (Oct 15, 2020)

Ashtr1x said:


> Not going to believe this. How much of an improvement will be TSMC 7nm process will do ? It's not like it will become super fast or clock high, at max it will lower the power consumption, everyone knows that since Pascal this b.s Clock Boost came so I'm thinking the TSMC shift won't magically make the GPUs boost to higher clocks, *look at Ryzen 5000, it's on 7nm EUV, 7NP it didn't change the clock speed and we know Ryzen 7nm* has been pushed to max out of box, and add that boosting behavior where the clocks change like GPUs. And that VRM component disaster of the AIBs on the Ampere is not at all because of the 8nm node but rather BOM.


Thats wrong.
ZEN3 is on the same 7nm DUV node that ZEN2 is. Not 7NP that is also enhanced DUV.

Clocks have gone up a little but gone up (wait to see all-core clocks), and that was from refined architecture and maybe the more mature 7nm DUV node. Also performance/watt gone up for the same reasons, but not from 7NP DUV because 5000 is not on 7NP DUV.
RDNA2 GPUs are on 7NP DUV. No 7+ *EUV* for any AMD products.

That was an honest mistake I want to believe...

And yes the only thing that Samsungs’s 8nm hurt on Ampere was the performance/watt. Clock crashes was/are probably due to lack of time to refine vBIOS, drivers, and time to test properly... so AIBs did some rush moves with the combination of all previous and the selected power delivery components.


----------



## renz496 (Oct 15, 2020)

ODOGG26 said:


> Why are you providing an excuse for NVIDIA low supply. They went Samsung because they tried to play their usual game in getting Samsung and TSMC to compete with each other on price but that strategy failed miserably. AMD bought up all Apple 7nm orders once they moved on to 5nm and they bought up all stock left over from Huawei ban. Plus they are first in line for any additional 7nm stock that becomes available. And from reports, the same trend will follow with 5nm as they are like second to apple for 5nm. So it's not because TSMC could not supply the chips its because NVIDIA squandered their opportunity to secure orders trying to play games. Not doing their due diligence and analyzing the market that has a resurgent AMD who has tons of product to release on 7nm. It's all NVIDIA's fault and no one else. No excuses



personally i don't think nvidia really play games with TSMC to lower the price for them. because realistically TSMC 7nm have very high demand to the point some chip maker have to book their order one year in advance. if nvidia try to play games like leaving TSMC if the price is not lowered for them there always be others to fill the gap. it is not a game that nvidia can win anyway. second the reality is TSMC is over crowded and because of that 7nm wafer still end up being very expensive despite being mature in 2020. nvidia has been expressing their displeasure about TSMC capacity as far as 2012. that is when they start looking at samsung as an alternative to TSMC. back then Jensen even said intel should open their fab for others. in 2016 it was the first time samsung ever make GPU for nvidia with GP107 chip. one way or another alternative fab must exist for nvidia. and TSMC also have their own fair of issues before. 40nm have terrible yield. 32nm being cancelled. 20nm was not suitable for high performance chip making nvidia and AMD have to stick with 28nm for another 2 years until 16nm. there is no guarantee if upcoming shrink will not have it's problem. because the most important thing for nvidia is they need a process for their high performance chip. if nvidia did not work seriously with samsung alternative will never exist. 

and about 7nm capacity as i said in my other post even if AMD have some priority over others by TSMC they cannot take everything for themselves. remember nvidia is not the only one that need 7nm capacity. there is also others. TSMC cannot burn the bridge they had with other chip maker just so they can satisfy AMD alone. and news piece from Digitimes (which the basis of this article) saying TSMC is becoming more "friendly" towards nvidia. meaning they want nvidia to fab their stuff with them.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 15, 2020)

This is simpler than it looks.
nVidia has gone with Samsung because it was cheaper node. Ampere card are so expensive that they cut corners wherever the could. They need this to be price competitive against AMD and get their profit margin. Against perf/watt.










Look how great Turing and Ampere is compared to past nVidia gens.


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## Calmmo (Oct 15, 2020)

Those graphs only show how stupid the 3090 is. Not ampere. But i guess it wasnt convenient enough nor fit the narrative to add the 3080 there.


----------



## Zach_01 (Oct 15, 2020)

Calmmo said:


> Those graphs only show how stupid the 3090 is. Not ampere. But i guess it wasnt convenient enough nor fit the narrative to add the 3080 there.


You are missing some points, or maybe you left those out to fit yours?

Thats ok. I can say it

Still performance uplift from previous gen for Turing and Ampere is the worst the last decade.
Performance per for watt for Turing and Ampere is the worst the last decade
*Turing was so bad at everything that makes Ampere and particularly 3080 looking good.*

It was my bad to not provide the narrative...
Watch it and listen before you can decide whats fits in what.


----------



## Calmmo (Oct 15, 2020)

I did, it's constructed to build a very specific narrative that fits that tunnel vision perspective, just _look_ at that price performance, oh yes.

Anyway, im done giving views to pot stirring fanboy aimed rumorville channels, hope you keep enjoying top tier influence like that, i won't.

Off to my tinfoil hat wearing sessions.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 15, 2020)

Calmmo said:


> I did, it's constructed to build a very specific narrative that fits that tunnel vision perspective, just _look_ at that price performance, oh yes.
> 
> Anyway, im done giving views to pot stirring fanboy aimed rumorville channels, hope you keep enjoying top tier influence like that, i won't.


Yeap... Thats exactly what he is! You should see his AMD related content in the past. In those he is the Intel/nVidia fanboy.
You dont know what you're talkin about and and that is at least misleading
He is just telling things as is and for all brands

Offtopic:
I wonder how you are watching that 27" monitor without a display output.


----------



## Anymal (Oct 15, 2020)

Ampere ga102 is the fastest gpu on the planet and with the best p/W ratio in games on 1440p and above. What else do you want to know?



evernessince said:


> Navi is actually slightly more power efficient if you compare the 5700 to the 2060 / 2070, the cards which it was competing against.


Ok, but not Ampere as you said.


----------



## Vayra86 (Oct 15, 2020)

When AdoredTV starts getting linked in a topic, you kinda know its time to leave. Seems like the red haze has taken over


----------



## Sora (Oct 15, 2020)

ODOGG26 said:


> Can't believe people really believe this. For one, there's not enough 7nm wafers for them now.



with huewei and several other chinese designers out of the running, TMSC has had  room open up.




> Two, do you know how long it would take for this if even possible to come to market (guess is like 6-8 months) and then be obsolete months later once Hopper comes out. Some people will believe anything these days without even stopping to think for a second. AMD has TSMC 7nm pretty much locked up.



Nvidia already had GA10x designs ready for TMSC.



> Their first in line for any additional wafers that comes available. Plus that would be too costly for NVIDIA to change to TSMC for only a few months to then change to maybe 5nm for hopper months later.



"few months"

Hopper won't be for consumers and it won't be for 2 years as of September.


----------



## MrGRiMv25 (Oct 15, 2020)

I doubt it's gonna be that difficult to move the other cards to TSMC considering the GA100 is already manufactured on 7nm... still a 400W TDP though. Will have to wait and see how it progresses now there's free capacity at TSMC.


----------



## R-T-B (Oct 15, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> How could it not be, I pull repositories from 2 years back, but your 2 month old frameset is still not challenged... oh, I be getting ya loud and clear!



I wish I could understand you.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 15, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I wish I could understand you.


It is understandable. It is called retrospective determinism, "I knew it" bias.
I mean, what is a fanboy without some self-fulfilling conspiracy which I have...


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## medi01 (Oct 15, 2020)

What a ridiculous way to spin what happened.



renz496 said:


> "The report claims that TSMC has become more "friendly" to NVIDIA."
> 
> not that TSMC is afraid of samsung but they probably try to make sure samsung to not becoming a formidable competitor in the future.



Yeah, and totally not because 3080 is an epic.fail.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 15, 2020)

medi01 said:


> What a ridiculous way to spin what happened.


Yes. The underdog collecting all leftover production commitments at rock bottom price that big players turned down, sitting on their laurels, and later becoming incumbent upon the said production volume that made the underdog sitting on a gold mine? Unbelievable.



R-T-B said:


> I wish I could understand you.


You have to understand this is a multi-faceted conspiracy, Intel taking an arrow to the knee, Nvidia designing their own sticky situation, all parts conspiring so that I for one welcome AMD as our new PC Overlords, on top of even bigger rivals.
I've been having these conspiracies for quite some time now. Doesn't matter any more whether it is a joke now that it is real, is it?


Spoiler: Doesn't matter it's a joke if it is real, isn't it?






mtcn77 said:


> Intel shut the EUV door on itself so deliberately that they sort of masterminded their own disadvantage. Lasertec inventing light inspection machines that got booked for years on end had them drop even further in the node race. Now, the rest of the manufacturers have a fast path to both DUV which spare a portion of mask verification runtime and EUV which is now even more readily deployed as 5nm. GJ Intel, you have successfully let yourself become a fast follower.





mtcn77 said:


> Making cold calls on Intel newscast with blanket 'shilling' accusations is my modus. Looks like they happen to take the bait quite well.
> PS: Jesus! If I play nice, I might even turn the medium into 4chan. Just need more instigating rabble and the right stir pot.


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## R-T-B (Oct 15, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Yes. The underdog collecting all leftover production commitments at rock bottom price that big players turned down, sitting on their laurels, and later becoming incumbent upon the said production volume that made the underdog sitting on a gold mine? Unbelievable.
> 
> 
> You have to understand this is a multi-faceted conspiracy, Intel taking an arrow to the knee, Nvidia designing their own sticky situation, all parts conspiring so that I for one welcome AMD as our new PC Overlords, on top of even bigger rivals.
> I've been having these conspiracies for quite some time now. Doesn't matter any more whether it is a joke now that it is real, is it?



Cool story bro.


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## witkazy (Oct 15, 2020)

Whew, dodged another one , anyone wanna chip in for monument in honor of Unknown Scalper


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## John Naylor (Oct 16, 2020)

Wow ... these "conclusions from scant rumors are pretty wild ... next we'll be reading that Jemsen is using white slave child labor to insert the chips in the PCbs and smuggling them thru a network of pizzaria basements


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## medi01 (Oct 16, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> collecting all leftover


Sure thing, kid, AMD that commands 100% of major console market (tens of millions of chips every year) was "collecting leftover".
It is interesting that you mentioned that other company, which isn't even relevant.

Reality it seems, is that Huang has pissed of yet another major player (Microsoft is the other notable one which didn't even bother contacting NV for console business, it went so badly)  TSMC.
And that now *NV is in dire situation of Big Navi likely wiping the floor with GA104, while GA102 being too expensive/power hungry*/not fit with its memory configuration to compete.
So now Huang needs to eat crow and crawl back to TSMC.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 16, 2020)

medi01 said:


> Sure thing, kid, AMD that commands 100% of major console market (tens of millions of chips every year) was "collecting leftover".
> It is interesting that you mentioned *that other company*, which isn't even relevant.


Well, it is relevant if you didn't get the memo. Pureplay foundries don't entitle licensees the right to a swift migration, if the migrated supply chain is a "third party".
Nvidia should have known full well that they would not have "time to market" advantage with a full assembly line switch; in fact that they would have to spend overtime in order to sort out the differences.



medi01 said:


> Reality it seems, is that Huang has pissed of yet another major player


Don't make a scene. You're breaking old news.


medi01 said:


> (Microsoft is the other notable one which didn't even bother contacting NV for console business, it went so badly) TSMC.


This is a recall from the 2008 ball joint qualification standards. Xbox had its name tarnished due to bga connections breaking up on them. Community was up in arms about it _*And it doesn't occur anymore with AMD at the wheel.*_


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## R-T-B (Oct 17, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> This is a recall from the 2008 ball joint qualification standards. Xbox had its name tarnished due to bga connections breaking up on them. Community was up in arms about it _*And it doesn't occur anymore with AMD at the wheel.*_



That was due to the type of lead free solder used, not the fab.  Heh.  As if amd even had a fab.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 17, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> That was due to the type of lead free solder used, not the fab.  Heh.  As if amd even had a fab.


Ironically, we both avoided a strike, left unsaid, which company was behind the incident. Classy...


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## R-T-B (Oct 17, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Ironically, we both avoided a strike, left unsaid, which company was behind the incident. Classy...



The company behind the incident would be the PCB assembler in this case, or otherwise Microsoft for their part choice.


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## terroralpha (Oct 17, 2020)

if anyone is still hunting for ampere, i don't think you should. i was playing games last night next to a computer with an RTX 3090. while the card was running cool, it was shitting out so much heat that it felt like i was sitting next to a space heater. my central AC thermostat is set to 70*F and i still had to crack a window (45 outside) to not sweat. ive had power hungry GPUs before but this is ridiculous.

i had a 2080ti and an RX 5700XT in this same PC before this, but i never had this problem. i think i'm going to return my 3090 and wait for a 7nm ampere. in the meantime, the LG 38" ultragear monitor will hopefully come down from $1600

PS: If anyone thinks I’m just being an nvidia hater (which I was accused of elsewhere) I have a CPU-Z validation link in my sig showing my 3090.


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## Zach_01 (Oct 17, 2020)

Yes, going from 220~250W to 350+W is something, to be sweat about. Wait a few weeks and AMD will join with her own ~300W, maybe more, GPU...


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## Chrispy_ (Oct 17, 2020)

terroralpha said:


> if anyone is still hunting for ampere, i don't think you should. i was playing games last night next to a computer with an RTX 3090. while the card was running cool, it was shitting out so much heat that it felt like i was sitting next to a space heater. my central AC thermostat is set to 70*F and i still had to crack a window (45 outside) to not sweat. ive had power hungry GPUs before but this is ridiculous.
> 
> i had a 2080ti and an RX 5700XT in this same PC before this, but i never had this problem. i think i'm going to return my 3090 and wait for a 7nm ampere. in the meantime, the LG 38" ultragear monitor will hopefully come down from $1600


This is why I refuse to even look at anything over 250W and I'm currently running my 2070S at an 85% power limit to keep its output to a reasonable 180W or so.

I have a quiet apartment and I don't have air conditioning so excessive heat and/or noise are not something I'm keen on.

Even though I'm no eco-hippy I can't help feel that massively overpowered GPUs are also environmentally wasteful. I'll take 120fps at 180W over 200fps at 375W any day of the week...


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## Mussels (Oct 18, 2020)

terroralpha said:


> if anyone is still hunting for ampere, i don't think you should. i was playing games last night next to a computer with an RTX 3090. while the card was running cool, it was shitting out so much heat that it felt like i was sitting next to a space heater. my central AC thermostat is set to 70*F and i still had to crack a window (45 outside) to not sweat. ive had power hungry GPUs before but this is ridiculous.
> 
> i had a 2080ti and an RX 5700XT in this same PC before this, but i never had this problem. i think i'm going to return my 3090 and wait for a 7nm ampere. in the meantime, the LG 38" ultragear monitor will hopefully come down from $1600
> 
> PS: If anyone thinks I’m just being an nvidia hater (which I was accused of elsewhere) I have a CPU-Z validation link in my sig showing my 3090.



I wont get my 3080 til late november, so i can at least see what AMD is packing before it ships


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## mtcn77 (Oct 18, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> The company behind the incident would be the PCB assembler in this case, or otherwise Microsoft for their part choice.


... happened not just in Microsoft's console... people did not like it, lawsuits were filed, all fingers pointed to a single green colored direction. Have fun with koolaid.


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## R-T-B (Oct 18, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> ... happened not just in Microsoft's console... people did not like it, lawsuits were filed, all fingers pointed to a single green colored direction. Have fun with koolaid.



Ah yes, lead-free solder koolaid, the best kind!

Do keep in mind neither AMD nor nvidia provides solder.  Is it bad I don't even know which "green company" Kool aid I am supposedly enjoying?


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## mtcn77 (Oct 18, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Do keep in mind neither AMD nor nvidia provides solder.


Well, in that case, it must have been done very deliberately since they couldn't mess it up any other way. Some quality measures must have been violated. Sour grapes.


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## R-T-B (Oct 18, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Well, in that case, it must have been done very deliberately since they couldn't mess it up any other way. Some quality measures must have been violated. Sour grapes.



Well the solder they used in the Xenon batch was literally recalled later, so yeah.


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## mtcn77 (Oct 18, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Well the solder they used in the Xenon batch was literally recalled later, so yeah.


K.

You know this was publicly available information, right?








						Home
					

Seattle local news, traffic, weather, business news, sports, real estate, photos and events.




					blog.seattlepi.com
				




Do you have a sense of what it means? I'm losing patience here.


Spoiler: Here we go: 3... 2... 1...






> From this email, Plaintiffs conclude that there are “known industry concerns with ․ the use of high-lead solder.” They also conclude, “Defendants knew and/or deliberately disregarded that their GPU and MCP problems likely stemmed from this hasty, under-tested manufacturing change initiated in 2006.”





> ... We couldn't figure it out. ... There was a theory. We had changed our solder, which is the way you put the GPU and the fans, to lead-free. ... We think it was somehow the heat coming off the GPU was drying out some of the solder, and it wasn't the normal stuff we'd used, because we had to meet European Standards and take the lead out. ... He said, 'what's it going to cost?' I remember taking a deep breath, looking at Robbie, and saying, 'we think it's $1.15bn, Steve.' He said, 'do it.' There was no hesitation. ... If we hadn't made that decision there and then, and tried to fudge over this problem, then the Xbox brand and Xbox One wouldn't exist today."[24]


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## R-T-B (Oct 18, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> K.
> 
> You know this was publicly available information, right?



Um... yeah?  That was sort of my point.



> Home
> 
> 
> Seattle local news, traffic, weather, business news, sports, real estate, photos and events.
> ...



It means they tried a new solder type when they shouldn't have, that didn't meet the thermal specs they thought it did.  It also means they were really pushing their cooling capacity and solution.  I'm sorry but I really don't know where your going with this.


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## HeavyHemi (Oct 23, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Um... yeah?  That was sort of my point.
> 
> 
> 
> It means they tried a new solder type when they shouldn't have, that didn't meet the thermal specs they thought it did.  It also means they were really pushing their cooling capacity and solution.  I'm sorry but I really don't know where your going with this.


He doesn't either. A similar issue with the original iMac. I was personally involved with the board design at a separate company and know precisely the failure mode of the logic board and the fact that Apple hid the design flaw.


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## tygrus (Dec 16, 2020)

Only a 5% chance of this occurring before September 2021. More likely for RTX3060 & mobile for volume. Changing FAB company&node requires redesign & qualification using new design rules which is costly & time-consuming. 2 to 3 Months to change design to new node geometry, atleast 7months for A1, test, fix, ES, test, fix, final, test, release. Add another 2 months if it requires another revision.


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