# Intel Skylake De-lidded, Reveals Tiny Die



## btarunr (Aug 10, 2015)

When Japanese tech publication PC Watch got under the hood (lid) of a Core i7-6700K quad-core processor, what they found was an unexpectedly small silicon, that's shorter in proportion to its width, than previous dies from Intel, such as Haswell-D, and Ivy Bridge-D. It's smaller than even the i7-5775C, despite the same 14 nm process, because of its slimmer integrated graphics core with just 24 execution units (compared to 48 on the i7-5775C), and the lack of an external 128 MB SRAM cache for the iGPU.

The substrate Intel is using on the i7-6700K was found to be slimmer than the one on the i7-4770K, at 0.8 mm thick, compared to 1.1 mm on the latter. The thicker IHS (integrated heatspreader) makes up for the thinner substrate, so it shouldn't cause problems with using your older LGA1150 coolers on the new socket. Intel is using a rather viscous silver-based TIM between the die and the IHS. The die is closer to the center of the IHS than its predecessors were. PC Watch swapped out the stock TIM with Prolimatech PK-3 and Cool Laboratory Liquid Pro, and found some impressive drops in temperatures at stock speed (4.00 GHz) and with a mild overclock (4.60 GHz). 



 

 

 

 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## RejZoR (Aug 10, 2015)

Stupid cheap TIM again. FU Intel. You charge bloody 400€ for this thing and you can't use a drop of solder on it... *sigh*


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## The Von Matrices (Aug 10, 2015)

The small die reminds me of the Pentium III


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## pozoliu (Aug 10, 2015)

OMG is the reincarnation of the Pentium III


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> Stupid cheap TIM again. FU Intel. You charge bloody 400€ for this thing and you can't use a drop of solder on it... *sigh*


Its not the TIM thats crap, its the black adhesive they use that expands when it gets hot so it causes a gap between the die and the IHS.


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## bogami (Aug 10, 2015)

Well again, it will be better to remove the cover and 10 or mor degrees celziusa differences increasing the number of open multipliers on i76700K and i76600k.  5 Gh  no problem with the water cooling. They cut a lot of graphic power against i75775 Cand i75775C can be opened at 5 gh without problem. 14 nm wonderful !
in good RAM and SSD RAID options expect a very springy computer on 5gh +.
But for now I'll stick to the 22 nm because the difference is too small in the final rezultatu.tudi here 5 gh do the job. Unfortunately, I am not so rich to be able to quickly rotate processor , ram and board.


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## esrever (Aug 10, 2015)

Intel's profit margin must be insane for these. They are just making bank selling small dies that would used to be low end chips. 6 years ago, for $350 would get you a chip 3x this size and intel wouldn't make nearly as much profit per chip.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Its not the TIM thats crap, its the black adhesive they use that expands when it gets hot so it causes a gap between the die and the IHS.



It's obvious that something is wrong with Intel's setting.

Do they intentionally keep or like to keep temperatures so high?
Are they so stupid or blind not to be able to see and fix these thermal inconveniences?

Intel are to be f***** !


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## RejZoR (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm not sure what to go with. Skylake 6700k quad-core or Haswell-E 5820k hex-core. Price wise they are around the same, but Skylake is 14nm and clocked higher. Having 6 cores and 12 threads is tempting though. I had my i7 920 with 8 threads when most people were still on dual cores and normal 4 thread quads...

But I think higher clock with less cores would benefit me more since I'm more into gaming and 4C-8T configuration already serves me well.


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## GreiverBlade (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> Stupid cheap TIM again. FU Intel. You charge bloody 400€ for this thing and you can't use a drop of solder on it... *sigh*


more and more ... i feel your over-negativity ... tho i can't see why you even bother to care about: your i7-920 is plenty (even if a 4690K or 4790K would also be a upgrade and boast a bit better thermal solution over std haswell and maybe std skylake)

yet i can bet if you did not read about that and got one, you wouldn't even notice it.

tho: one more reason to stay with what i have (Devil's Canyon are near perfect and still up for some year if needed)

tho the "cheap TIM" (well if silver based ... let's laugh maybe they use the AS5 urgh ... one more reason for delidding and swap TIM) is an advantage for those who know, and want to delid their CPU (compared to solder ... less a pita)

/warning sarcasm and joking mostly/ and also solder on mainstream? at 400$ ? don't laugh solder is only for 1000$ and more HEDT class (nope the 5820K is not a HEDT at only 200$ more than a 6700K ) or so they try to make you believe so they can charge 600 more for nearly nothing more in the end (what  2 core more and quad channel DDR4 is worth 600$??? /Warning's end/

step 2: prepare for Skylake-DT refresh with better thermal solution.



RejZoR said:


> I'm not sure what to go with. Skylake 6700k quad-core or Haswell-E 5820k hex-core. Price wise they are around the same, but Skylake is 14nm and clocked higher. Having 6 cores and 12 threads is tempting though. I had my i7 920 with 8 threads when most people were still on dual cores and normal 4 thread quads...
> 
> But I think higher clock with less cores would benefit me more since I'm more into gaming and 4C-8T configuration already serves me well.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny die because of AMD's absence.

You will see that when AMD is back and competitive with Zen, Intel will magically drop bigger and more serious stuff.


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## RejZoR (Aug 10, 2015)

Why is solder on 400€ CPU a shocker? In the past ALL CPU's had soldered dies to the IHS. And now it's some sort of exotic? 

I need to switch because my system is acting funny for the past few months and I just don't have the nerves anymore to deal with it. I'll try few more things today, but I think I'll just switch in September when supply of 6700k becomes a bit more steady and price hopefully drops a bit as well...

If there were no general issues I'd just stay with i7 920...


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## GreiverBlade (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Tiny die because of AMD's absence.
> 
> You will see that when AMD is back and competitive with Zen, Intel will magically drop bigger and more serious stuff.


i just gonna go for a *facepalm*....

die size=seriousness level???? of course the die is smaller than Broadwell, even with the same 14nm process the igp is not the same (totally required a ... iris IGP on a desktop i7 ... just a basic one would be enough for flashing purpose or GPU problems troubleshooting) and no eDram



RejZoR said:


> Why is solder on 400€ CPU a shocker? In the past ALL CPU's had soldered dies to the IHS. And now it's some sort of exotic?
> 
> I need to switch because my system is acting funny for the past few months and I just don't have the nerves anymore to deal with it. I'll try few more things today, but I think I'll just switch in September when supply of 6700k becomes a bit more steady and price hopefully drops a bit as well...
> 
> If there were no general issues I'd just stay with i7 920...


or you can go like some do (not me ofc ...) and take a 4690K 4790K, pay less and get near the same performance level and paying even less by using DDR3 (which is also still in the race )
i will be praying (not that i am a believer but it might work  )that you don't run into issue with you new CPU or win 10 or any hardware you will get... to avoid a streak of over-negativity again

oh god ALL CPU in the past had solder i forgot that, also where the manufacturing cost the same?

ps: i would not be shocked by a solder on a 400$ CPU tho ... i am not shocked,either, of the opposite ...
well mostly because i did wait Haswell's refresh and got a 4690K and only paid around 250$ and get the same perf ingame than my friend who use a 4790K and a 980 (tho he use the latest driver for that one ... and chain complain about issue while i tell him to revert to 347.88 and stay on win 7 until win 10 issues are solved)

(sidenote... half related Win 10 on the laptop well it seems the HD5500 in the i5-5200U like the upgrade, i noticed a increase of 4fps in FFXIVHW  oh well at last that make it from 26ish to 30ish)


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

GreiverBlade said:


> die size=seriousness level?



Yes and I do not see why you are so shocked.

Reduce die size even further and you will see even bigger performance drop.

Increase the die, for example twice or quadruple, get rid of the graphics part which people won't use anyways, and you will get a very beautiful multiple-core processing unit.


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## Anvirol (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> I'm not sure what to go with. Skylake 6700k quad-core or Haswell-E 5820k hex-core. Price wise they are around the same, but Skylake is 14nm and clocked higher. Having 6 cores and 12 threads is tempting though. I had my i7 920 with 8 threads when most people were still on dual cores and normal 4 thread quads...
> 
> But I think higher clock with less cores would benefit me more since I'm more into gaming and 4C-8T configuration already serves me well.



E series CPU's have much higher TDP and also X-series motherboard VRM's run very hot.
You have to decide if you want to spend more money on energy bills (and warm up your room).

I have 3930k 6-core CPU and tbh. it's not worth it unless you are constantly rendering videos or 3D.


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## GreiverBlade (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Yes and I do not see why you are so shocked.
> 
> Reduce die size even further and you will see even bigger performance drop.
> 
> Increase the die, for example twice or quadruple, get rid of the graphics part which people won't use anyways, and you will get a very beautiful multiple-core processing unit.


i am not shocked (a "facepalm" is not used to express shock ...)  ... and ... your explanation is totally off, or it's your understanding who is ...
it's not only competition that rules that ... also manufacturing cost ... tho indeed intel is touching himself with Skylake (as he did with Broadwell too) and i agree on the graphic part, AS I EXPLAINED IN THAT LINE IN MY PREVIOUS POST,


GreiverBlade said:


> (totally required a ... iris IGP on a desktop i7 ... just a basic one would be enough for flashing purpose or GPU problems troubleshooting)


tho i still implied that a basic one could be useful in case of discrete gpu problems or flash, i was happy that my XEON E3-1275v2 had a IGP when i needed to flash a 6950 then a 7870 and last but not least a 7950


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## m.s.1988 (Aug 10, 2015)

Is Skylake limited AVX clock to TDP like Haswell-EP?
Skylake with the stock interface at 4.6GHz on running prime95 v28.5 Small FFTs is much cooler than 4790k at 4.6GHz.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 10, 2015)

esrever said:


> Intel's profit margin must be insane for these. They are just making bank selling small dies that would used to be low end chips. 6 years ago, for $350 would get you a chip 3x this size and intel wouldn't make nearly as much profit per chip.


I suspect a lot of it is going to process tech research.  The cost of finding ways to go smaller has already started rising for Intel (demonstrated by the facepalm that is Broadwell).  It'll get worse the smaller it gets until an alternative is implemented.

Intel is making a lot of money but they are a far, far cry from other tech companies like Microsoft and Apple.


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## Naito (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> Stupid cheap TIM again. FU Intel. You charge bloody 400€ for this thing and you can't use a drop of solder on it... *sigh*



Man, you have a lot of pent-up rage for Intel...


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## GreiverBlade (Aug 10, 2015)

Naito said:


> Man, you have a lot of pent-up rage for Intel...


not only Intel ... unfortunately


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## radrok (Aug 10, 2015)

Can't wait to see how many cores this shrink will bring to the Xeons. I'm predicting atleast 28


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## RejZoR (Aug 10, 2015)

Naito said:


> Man, you have a lot of pent-up rage for Intel...



What, should I praise them to infinity while they are f**king us in the rear? We have a term for that and it's called FANBOY. Also, for your reference, I'm using an Intel CPU and this isn't the first one that I've had.


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## Naito (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> What, should I praise them to infinity while they are f**king us in the rear? We have a term for that and it's called FANBOY. Also, for your reference, I'm using an Intel CPU and this isn't the first one that I've had.



Intel is American. American corporations are generally capitalist. Besides, with more technology heading towards a mobile future, Intel is more likely going to be concentrating on efficiency over outright gigahertz. Furthermore, the small the node, the harder it it is to keep things like tunneling leakage under control. Unfortunately enthusiasts are the small minority when it comes to Intel's income; big businesses are probably looking to cut their carbon footprint and save money. I suppose Intel just has different goals to what enthusiasts want them to have, especially when the competition is falling short of the mark.


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## Assimilator (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> What, should I praise them to infinity while they are f**king us in the rear? We have a term for that and it's called FANBOY. Also, for your reference, I'm using an Intel CPU and this isn't the first one that I've had.



I consider myself an Intel fanboy and I'm also very disappointed by the continued use of crappy TIM. An 18 degree drop is absolutely massive and could easily be the difference between a mediocre overclock and a decent one. Throw us a frickin' bone Intel!

The only potential upside, if it can be called that, is that Intel might decide to do another Devil's Canyon series but for Skylake (6790K ?) - then we will get decent TIM. Of course, there will also be a price premium for such CPUs over standard Skylake...


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## RejZoR (Aug 10, 2015)

If enthusiasts are such tiny minority, then why do they have entire product line aimed exclusively at them (the E variants)?

EDIT:
They don't mention how they measured the temperature. With new TIM and re-lidded or new TIM and direct contact to a cooler. Because direct contact will ALWAYS be better (by a lot)...


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## Basard (Aug 10, 2015)

Go figure... somebody can design a chip with billions of transistors in it but they can't do something that almost every PC builder can.


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## Naito (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> If enthusiasts are such tiny minority, then why do they have entire product line aimed exclusively at them (the E variants)?



Xeon scraps. High margins.

Compared to the large number of machines like Acer Veritons I see shifted, enthusiasts are a small minority.



Assimilator said:


> I consider myself an Intel fanboy and I'm also very disappointed by the continued use of crappy TIM. An 18 degree drop is absolutely massive and could easily be the difference between a mediocre overclock and a decent one. Throw us a frickin' bone Intel!



It's possible, that due to the density and size of the die, the heat required to bind the heat spreader would kill the chip.

I'm not making excuses for Intel here, just trying to present a sensible, logical argument. Personally I believe the 1151 platform has been pushed dangerously close to the 2011-3 platform in price and some of its value has been lost as a result.


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## Prima.Vera (Aug 10, 2015)

lol. looks like a CPU for mobiles


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## Joss (Aug 10, 2015)

This is all due to lack of competition.
If AMD had by now a replacement for the FX-8350 we'd be talking of a different Skylake.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

Naito said:


> big businesses are probably looking to cut their carbon footprint and save money.



Cutting carbon footprint and at the same time cutting computational performance. Too strong compromise, don't you think.

So, Thanks but no.

Would you be smarter to give us energy which does not have carbon footprint at all and leads to maximum performance instead, so we can solve problems quicker and enjoy better entertainment?


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## Agreemenot (Aug 10, 2015)

And the milking machine continues. Seems like some have forgotten or understand what PC means.

I wonder if this is part of some strategy/tactic or just for profit and streamlining. 

To release a TIM one on tock and then a soldered one on tick. Or on the same tick but with a "Refresh" like with Haswell. To put it simply, as it probably involves sales figures and response/reception from the consumers/community.


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## TheLostSwede (Aug 10, 2015)

What I don't understand is how the 6700K is more expensive than both the 5775C (which has a more "advanced" GPU and 128MB on package cache) and the 5820K. Intels pricing this time around is just wrong, wrong, wrong.


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## BorisDG (Aug 10, 2015)

Why nobody still not delided Broadwell???


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## Naito (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Cutting carbon footprint and at the same time cutting computational performance. Too strong compromise, don't you think.



I wasn't aware the performance between the last few generations of CPUs declined along with power usage. But seriously, they've not only maintained performance, but also increased it each generation. If say 10% performance increase per generation from Sandy Bridge to Skylake one would assume Skylake is 30% at the same clock rate. Then you include the fact Skylake clocks well and has a platform with much more modern feature set, it's not bad value at all (but encroaching into 2011-3 price territory).

And again, *quantum mechanics limits clock speeds.*


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## rtwjunkie (Aug 10, 2015)

GreiverBlade said:


> oh god ALL CPU in the past had solder i forgot that, also where the manufacturing cost the same?


 
Yes, remember the last soldered ones, the Sandy Bridge CPU's?  And not overpriced either, so I don't think it's that much of a cost issue on their part.  I think it's not having serious competition, so why spend money for great heat dissipation when they can get by with just "good"?

Hopefully when AMD releases real competitive chip, Intel hasn't forgotten how to solder.


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## vega22 (Aug 10, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> Yes, remember the last soldered ones, the Sandy Bridge CPU's?  And not overpriced either, so I don't think it's that much of a cost issue on their part.  I think it's not having serious competition, so why spend money for great heat dissipation when they can get by with just "good"?
> 
> Hopefully when AMD releases real competitive chip, Intel hasn't forgotten how to solder.



intel was worried about bulldozer 2 or piledriver or some shit back then.

like how the 980ti is such a good card (for the money by nvidia standards) today, they we concerned about fury and brought their A game.

i am hoping amd's move to 16 or 14nm will force intel to stop dialing them in too. but more i hope intel shows us what they can do, and not just what they need to do you know.

you can see by looking at that they could of made this their 1st mainstream oct or hex core with ease. fuckers.


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## 64K (Aug 10, 2015)

imo Intel needs a good push from AMD. Whether they will get it with Zen I don't know yet.
I remember a couple of years ago when Skylake was just beginning to be discussed on tech forums that people had high hopes for a large performance increase. It was said that the team working on Skylake was the same team that brought us Sandy Bridge. Companies just don't do their best unless they have serious competition. It's human nature I guess to do only what you have to to get by.


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## radrok (Aug 10, 2015)

I don't think you guys really appreciate how much Intel has improved in perf/watt wise and we're also reaching a point where squeezing out IPC is becoming harder and harder.

This 10% IPC over Haswell may not mean a lot on a quad core CPU, but think of what this will bring to Xeon behemoths, remember +10% each core and more cores because they are smaller, coupled with increased performance per watt has some ingredients for insane big dies CPUs.

Enthusiasts are a small part of Intel's revenue, don't be surprised if they are focusing on IGP plus perf/watt for consumers and perf/watt plus core scalability for enterprise businesses.


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## GhostRyder (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> I'm not sure what to go with. Skylake 6700k quad-core or Haswell-E 5820k hex-core. Price wise they are around the same, but Skylake is 14nm and clocked higher. Having 6 cores and 12 threads is tempting though. I had my i7 920 with 8 threads when most people were still on dual cores and normal 4 thread quads...
> 
> But I think higher clock with less cores would benefit me more since I'm more into gaming and 4C-8T configuration already serves me well.


 
I would get the 5820K, hands down as I have seen the reviews of skylake and its pretty abysmal.  More cores, similar single threaded performance (Maybe an up to 5% difference), more PCIE lanes, etc.

This does not surprise me, they refuse to solder to keep the profit margins as high as possible and it probably satisfies another couple of needs like limiting the overclocks (saves people from killing chips with extreme clocks), gives room for "Enthusiast grade" versions (Devils canyon), and keeping the next generation more relevant.  Sandy Bridge was so great that people kept them for so long for a reason...


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

radrok said:


> I don't think you guys really appreciate how much Intel



I will appreciate only when they allow AMD to be competitive again. We do not need a single supplier who does whatever they want without any punishment, in a monopoly environment.


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## Iceni (Aug 10, 2015)

Your all moaning about nothing. 

Soldered IHS means lapping. TIM means delidding. 

If I had a choice I would choose a water free delid to lapping any day of the week.

It wasn't so long ago that CPU's didn't have an IHS at all.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Yes and I do not see why you are so shocked.
> 
> Reduce die size even further and you will see even bigger performance drop.
> 
> Increase the die, for example twice or quadruple, get rid of the graphics part which people won't use anyways, and you will get a very beautiful multiple-core processing unit.



No graphics part? They have that, its their HDET platform. More cores, no IGP.



Sony Xperia S said:


> I will appreciate only when they allow AMD to be competitive again. We do not need a single supplier who does whatever they want without any punishment, in a monopoly environment.



Why is it up to them for AMD to get their head out of their asses? So what you want Intel to stall their R&D, production, etc. So AMD can catch up? Not going to happen.


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## radrok (Aug 10, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Why is it up to them for AMD to get their head out of their asses? So what you want Intel to stall their R&D, production, etc. So AMD can catch up? Not going to happen.



Agreed, besides AMD also helped itself on its current situation, poor management overall coupled with incompetent business decisions. They had a chance to strike back when Conroe landed, yet they buried their heads up their sunless-place.

Intel won't jack up prices anymore significantly, it's a monopoly yes, but they are competing with themselves. They will need to remain competitive price wise with what they offered in the past if they want to sell in volumes.

HEDT platform on the other hand... That's pony up and pay.


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## BorisDG (Aug 10, 2015)

Delided Broadwell -  5775C for those that are interesed:


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## avatar82 (Aug 10, 2015)

it was always my understanding that the engineers at Intel only look at TDP when designing the heatspreader/die contact solution. TDP of 140W or higher needs solder, TDP of 139 or lower doesn't. it has nothing to do with cost, model number, or anything sinister. using solder on low TDP parts is over engineered. 

that's my understanding anyway.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

BorisDG said:


> Delided Broadwell -  5775C for those that are interesed:



It is so much bigger, anyone has an estimate for Skylake's die area? 150 mm² ?


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## AsRock (Aug 10, 2015)

Naito said:


> Man, you have a lot of pent-up rage for Intel...



Actually agree with him this time.



GreiverBlade said:


> not only Intel ... unfortunately



Yeah but come on Intel skimping like this is pretty dam lame so he does have a point.

And lets face it prices keep creeping upwards and K versions don't come with coolers so i am sure they could solder them.

In fact i think the K ones should come soldered and none K paste.


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## cadaveca (Aug 10, 2015)

Simply put, the TIM is fine. I run 4.8 GHz, pulling just 100W at high load, and the chip hits 75c under a Corsair H90.

The fact I can push 100W+ through that tiny chip in and of itself is pretty amazing.


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## Joss (Aug 10, 2015)

BorisDG said:


> Delided Broadwell - 5775C for those that are interesed:


What are those two dies? Is one the iGPU?


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## Tatty_One (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> I will appreciate only when they allow AMD to be competitive again. We do not need a single supplier who does whatever they want without any punishment, in a monopoly environment.


The only people that will "allow" AMD to be competitive again is AMD, no one else is stopping them, in fact AMD have much more incentive to be competitive as they are the ones that are behind in performance terms, it sounds as though you blame everyone but AMD for their performance woe's.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 10, 2015)

Joss said:


> What are those two dies? Is one the iGPU?



The smaller die is the 128MB dedicated ram for the iGPU.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 10, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> Stupid cheap TIM again. FU Intel. You charge bloody 400€ for this thing and you can't use a drop of solder on it... *sigh*



It is a lot more than simply a drop of solder.  The machinery requires is more complicated and more expensive. It adds time to the assembly process as well.  And in the end it isn't necessary.  The solder was only added because of netburst's terrible thermal properties.  Intel was scrambling to find a way to keep them cool so they wouldn't self destruct, and solder under the IHS was one of the solutions(as well as designing an entire new form factor, remember BTX...).

With the current processors, they aren't at risk of self destructing from heat, they can both handled higher temperatures and are putting out less heat.  The only area putting TIM under the IHS would help is the enthusiast market, and you have to face facts, the enthusiast market doesn't even show up as a blip on Intel's customer charts.


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## Joss (Aug 10, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> The smaller die is the 128MB dedicated ram for the iGPU.


Thanks.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

Tatty_One said:


> The only people that will "allow" AMD to be competitive again is AMD, no one else is stopping them, in fact AMD have much more incentive to be competitive as they are the ones that are behind in performance terms, it sounds as though you blame everyone but AMD for their performance woe's.



AMD have no access to new manufacturing technologies. Intel has been locking their factories only for themselves. Maybe if AMD pushes a legal in the court over bad monopolistic practices, then Intel will free its manufacturing capacity to the others.

I have seen such examples in my home country. When a given satellite provider bought sports content which was locked only to its own TV channels. The legal authorities decided it wasn't fair and now those channels broadcast for more providers, and respectively for more customers.


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## ZenZimZaliben (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> AMD have no access to new manufacturing technologies. Intel has been locking their factories only for themselves. Maybe if AMD pushes a legal in the court over bad monopolistic practices, then Intel will free its manufacturing capacity to the others.



AMD hasn't fabbed their own stuff since 2009 so that is completely false. All of their fab happens at GlobalFoundries, which is a spin-off from AMD and they now service far more companies than just AMD. Global Foundries is building new facilities for 14nm pretty much exclusively for AMD and Samsung.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

ZenZimZaliben said:


> AMD hasn't fabbed their own stuff since 2009 so that is completely false. All of their fab happens at GlobalFoundries, which is a spin-off from AMD and they now service far more companies than just AMD. Global Foundries is building new facilities for 14nm pretty much exclusively for AMD and Samsung.



Better comment on the second part of my post which you conveniently skipped.

Expensive sports content is similar to extremely expensive lithography machines from ASML, plus huge engineering costs...


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## ZenZimZaliben (Aug 10, 2015)

I always try to be as convenient as possible.

Either way. Access to Fab Plants are not the problem regarding AMD's lacking competitiveness.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Better comment on the second part of my post which you conveniently skipped.
> 
> Expensive sports content is similar to extremely expensive lithography machines from ASML, plus huge engineering costs...



He probably skipped it because it has nothing to do with the conversation anyways. 

I think its more you just have a very skewed out look on the whole thing. No one is stopping AMD from being successful. Why should Intel give AMD access to their own fabs? That is totally ass backwards thinking when it comes to competition. They are Intel's fabs, of which Intel can do what they want with them. AMD uses TSMC and Global Foundaries.

Intel has left the door wide open for AMD to get back into a competitive state, but its AMD year after year that shoots themselves in the foot.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 10, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> They are Intel's fabs, of which Intel can do what they want with them. AMD uses TSMC and Global Foundaries.



No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.

AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..

And I don't see what your problem is - look at Apple and Samsung, not the same situation with different outcome?

Just admit that you are wrong.


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## 64K (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.
> 
> AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..
> 
> ...



Do you think that Intel owes AMD some help? If the roles were reversed and AMD was on top then would they be looking for ways to help Intel? That's not how businesses work. You don't help your competition to succeed.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 10, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.
> 
> AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..
> 
> ...



Intel is AMD's competitor, why is that so damn hard for you to understand? You basic understanding of competition is so flawed. Intel will never open their fabs up to AMD. Its their fabs for their own products. Like @ZenZimZaliben said, AMDs access to fabs is not their problem. Its really not.

Also Samsung has their own fabs too. Which is why some people think if Samsung bought AMD, it would be a good thing for AMD all together. Have access to millions in R&D and massive fabs.

Apple uses Samsung and TSMC fabs.



64K said:


> Do you think that Intel owes AMD some help? If the roles were reversed and AMD was on top then would they be looking for ways to help Intel? That's not how businesses work. You don't help your competition to succeed.



^^This


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 10, 2015)

64K said:


> Do you think that Intel owes AMD some help? If the roles were reversed and AMD was on top then would they be looking for ways to help Intel? That's not how businesses work. You don't help your competition to succeed.


 
You are wasting your time trying to explain the free competitive market to Sony.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 10, 2015)

Tatty_One said:


> The only people that will "allow" AMD to be competitive again is AMD, no one else is stopping them, in fact AMD have much more incentive to be competitive as they are the ones that are behind in performance terms, it sounds as though you blame everyone but AMD for their performance woe's.



So Microsoft cant decide which and whom it can favor then? Or sites like Atech?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 10, 2015)

Agreemenot said:


> So Microsoft cant decide which and whom it can favor then? Or sites like Atech?


 
It has nothing to do with MS, who btw cut a huge deal with them for the Xbone.  It has everything to do with a multitude of poor business practices on AMD's part.  They have been their own worst enemy.  I do suggest you do some reading on it, there's plenty of info everywhere on their history.


----------



## Tatty_One (Aug 10, 2015)

Agreemenot said:


> So Microsoft cant decide which and whom it can favor then? Or sites like Atech?


AMD have suffered in the last 5 years (especially) for a number of reasons, your comment may well be a contributing factor but AMD chooses which Fab to go with, if Intel's is better as Sony has said then perhaps that's because Intel have made the investment so their innovations can be served and delivered, from what I have seen and read there has just been a lack of investment and innovation on AMD's part, yes that may be because of outside factors too but at the end of the day a successful business led well gets over these barriers, I am no Intel fanboi, I would agree that my last 6 CPU's have been Intel but I can also say my last 6 GPU's have been AMD, people are just frustrated at the lack of competition, probably as much as Sony is, they just don't appear to blame everyone else but AMD for it, everyone (less Intel) probably thinks that the lack of competition is a bad thing, me included.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 10, 2015)

Tatty_One said:


> AMD have suffered in the last 5 years (especially) for a number of reasons, your comment may well be a contributing factor but AMD chooses which Fab to go with, if Intel's is better as Sony has said then perhaps that's because Intel have made the investment so their innovations can be served and delivered, from what I have seen and read there has just been a lack of investment and innovation on AMD's part, yes that may be because of outside factors too but at the end of the day a successful business led well gets over these barriers, I am no Intel fanboi, I would agree that my last 6 CPU's have been Intel but I can also say my last 6 GPU's have been AMD, people are just frustrated at the lack of competition, probably as much as Sony is, they just don't appear to blame everyone else but AMD for it, everyone (less Intel) probably thinks that the lack of competition is a bad thing, me included.



Maybe. But how can AMD "invest" when it doesn't get the funds thru sales as Intel denies them that thru uncompetitive practices? Like during P4vsA64 times. Not a matter of simply making sales but denying them too. Which is easier if you got more funds and a dominant position.  

Another is with Intel bundling their CPUs with a GPU so that neither the lower end cards from either AMD or Nvidia may get sold in greater numbers. 

Another one is also to enable sales. Like having "your" consumers spend more and more often.
Like with the recent Skylake where you have some reviews including a "benchmark" Dolphin, that shows 60-70% diff. between "Sandy Bridge" and Skylake where they also state that "Sandy Bridge, Your Time Is Up" and such. This certainly has nothing to do with that that those with a SB PC should feel/think their system is not adequate enough any longer, that they are dated, that they are behind and such should change = buy, right? Psychological rather than rational(relevancy).

Not merely a "business/corporate" issue but a consumer issue as well. Foolish consumers, serventile consumers and consumers licking corporate ass, where they cover for them helps them as well i think. For me its not a AMD vs Intel thing, but a Consumer/user/purchaser one.


----------



## AsRock (Aug 10, 2015)

cadaveca said:


> Simply put, the TIM is fine. I run 4.8 GHz, pulling just 100W at high load, and the chip hits 75c under a Corsair H90.
> 
> The fact I can push 100W+ through that tiny chip in and of itself is pretty amazing.



Tim maybe fine but solder would be a lot better and as seen as the price you pay you should get solder .


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 11, 2015)

@Agreemenot which uncompetitive practices does Intel engage in?  You mention P4 times, AMD was riding high then and Intels was shit.

As to bundling a gpu in the cpu, that's what AMD's APU are, and they were doing it first. Intel jist played catchup.  Because Intel is a well-run company, the made up for lost time quickly.

You're right about AMD not having much for funds to do R&D, marketing, etc.  But it's not Intel's fault. Intel has merely done what every company's shareholders demand: Make money.  Have you read up on why AMD is where they are now?  They have done it to themselves. Bad decision, bad strategy, bad management.  

Can they recover? Maybe, with alot of effort, but they are going to have to do it themselves.  I hope they do, because no company is ever going to help a competitor, and we need them to compete fiercely.


----------



## cadaveca (Aug 11, 2015)

AsRock said:


> Tim maybe fine but solder would be a lot better and as seen as the price you pay you should get solder .


Meh, what they provided, from my testing with my own chip, seems more than adequate, so it seems like nit-picking to me. So, Intel is making lots of money, thanks to a thin substrate, and small die. It also means that they can have better control of quality, since the small size lets them capitalize on wafer real estate. Solder would make it impossible to change the TIM for those that chose to do so, or want direct-die cooling for extreme overclocking. Seems like the right choice, to me.


----------



## R-T-B (Aug 11, 2015)

RejZoR said:


> Why is solder on 400€ CPU a shocker? In the past ALL CPU's had soldered dies to the IHS. And now it's some sort of exotic?
> 
> I need to switch because my system is acting funny for the past few months and I just don't have the nerves anymore to deal with it. I'll try few more things today, but I think I'll just switch in September when supply of 6700k becomes a bit more steady and price hopefully drops a bit as well...
> 
> If there were no general issues I'd just stay with i7 920...



Yeah, what actually made me switch man was the obscene motherboard prices and a slightly crazy onboard audio.  It seemed to go batshit insane in it's last few months.  Fortunately the buyer did not care.



radrok said:


> Can't wait to see how many cores this shrink will bring to the Xeons. I'm predicting atleast 28



Wasn't there already a 20+ core Haswell Xeon?



rtwjunkie said:


> Yes, remember the last soldered ones, the Sandy Bridge CPU's?  And not overpriced either, so I don't think it's that much of a cost issue on their part.  I think it's not having serious competition, so why spend money for great heat dissipation when they can get by with just "good"?
> 
> Hopefully when AMD releases real competitive chip, Intel hasn't forgotten how to solder.



Haswell-E is soldered.

@RejZoR, if I were you I'd quit waiting and buy the lower end Haswell-E (5820k).  It doesn't clock as well as a 920 but it ain't bad and it'll give you 6 nice, soldered cores if nothing else.


----------



## ShockG (Aug 11, 2015)

1. Solder was used on Sandy-Bridge that's why you could run 5GHz all day etc. 
2. Solder can be used on all CPUs, it has nothing to do with complexity at all. 
3. The issue with the TIM is that it will crack or rather stop being able to transfer heat effectively after a few LN2 sessions. That's why you ca read -115'C on the IHS but +11'C real CPU die temp. At that point the CPU becomes useless for pretty much everything as even stock clocks and VID will run into upwards of 90'C.

4. INTEL has been talking overclocking to us for a while, even more so since 2013. All initiatives and even in the press decks they highlight overclocking. By design in fact, SKylake-S K SKUs was made to allow more overclocking (hence the step-less bclk, more memory ratios, more voltage control, same power plane for Uncore/CPu clock etc.) 
The TIM used is in contrast to this ideology and message of promoting extreme OC. The situation is worse than with Haswell or any other CPU before because this time. You will not make 6GHz with a CPU that has not had the TIM replaced. If you do, the CPU throttles and performance tanks (6.3GHz performs like 5.4GHz for instance)

5. For air cooling, the current solution is probably fine for most people, but once you go XOC, it is utterly useless.


----------



## Octopuss (Aug 11, 2015)

I don't see what's the big deal anyway. The CPUs (the so called enthusiast ones in general) perform perfectly fine even overclocked under decent coolers. Delidding is a process that takes ten minutes maximum and that's if you are a lame idiot like myself.
Bottom line is: if noone tried to delid them you wouldn't know what the hell is under the IHS and would happily use them without moaning and deal with the temperatures.
And besides, extreme overclocking is way overrated. Who gives a shit about LN overclocking? Do you use a PC like that all day long?


----------



## radrok (Aug 11, 2015)

Dave is right tho, I will also add that you will reach unsafe voltages for the lithography way before reaching thermal limits, provided you use decent cooling.

I have degraded a 3930K by using 1.5v daily and that's 32nm, imagine what it's gonna happen to a node this small with high voltages daily.


----------



## Aquinus (Aug 11, 2015)

radrok said:


> I have degraded a 3930K by using 1.5v daily and that's 32nm, imagine what it's gonna happen to a node this small with high voltages daily.


It could have been voltages or BIOS but, I find that it's a lot harder to maintain a 125Mhz BCLK on my 3820 now so I don't really try anymore. I never ran it at 1.5v though, I did run it at 1.4v for a while though when it was running 4.65Ghz with the strap. It's not like I let it run hot either.


----------



## radrok (Aug 11, 2015)

I'm pretty sure the only way to run a hefty overclock without over time issues is phase change, but that's unpractical especially because it sounds like a fridge on steroids.


----------



## Sempron Guy (Aug 11, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.
> 
> AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..
> 
> ...



Just give up blaming intel Intel is an immortal company that bears no fault whatsover. It's totally AMD's fault why Intel chooses TIM instead of solder in between the ihs and the skylake die. And the new design in their retail boxes you can put that on AMD's tab too.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 11, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> @Agreemenot which uncompetitive practices does Intel engage in?  You mention P4 times, AMD was riding high then and Intels was shit.
> 
> As to bundling a gpu in the cpu, that's what AMD's APU are, and they were doing it first. Intel jist played catchup.  Because Intel is a well-run company, the made up for lost time quickly.
> 
> ...



Intel didnt do nuffin! Why dont you read up upon what they were charged on?  You obviously think its easy and simple to compete with someone that has so much more than you, connections, funds, ties etc., something other than a product.


----------



## midnightoil (Aug 11, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Its not the TIM thats crap, its the black adhesive they use that expands when it gets hot so it causes a gap between the die and the IHS.



I don't know how crap the TIM they use now for Haswell / Broadwell / Skylake is, but the stuff they used for Ivy Bridge (when they stopped using solder) was only marginally more effective than toothpaste, but significantly better than a slice of processed cheese at load ... that's how bad it was.  I have to think that it's been improved by now, but for IB it was absolutely abysmal (plus that huge amount of adhesive being problematic as you identify).  Getting rid of the adhesive and cleaning the toothpaste off and replacing it with Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra yielded a reduction in load temperatures of 32-34C for my 3770k.

Looking forward to Zen even more now that Intel have shafted us with a wad of glue and TIM again, instead of solder.  April can't come soon enough ...


----------



## Tatty_One (Aug 11, 2015)

Agreemenot said:


> Intel didnt do nuffin! Why dont you read up upon what they were charged on?  You obviously think its easy and simple to compete with someone that has so much more than you, connections, funds, ties etc., something other than a product.


Noone is denying the power and influence of Intel, the point is a while ago, OK a long while ago, AMD was not only competitive but offered CPU's that generally out performed Intel's offerings, so how is it that Intel in the last 10 years has come such a long way and AMD have not?  AMD had the market share and so I assume the profitability back then but it would at least appear that Intel's strategy, business models, innovation, investment and intent has got them to where they are now, yes perhaps with some dodgy dealing along the journey but it would appear that AMD's strategy etc just failed, perhaps I am over simplifying things but it's what I see from my view sadly.


----------



## Joss (Aug 11, 2015)

Tatty_One said:


> so how is it that Intel in the last 10 years has come such a long way and AMD have not?


Because AMD is a badly run company in the sense of always taking the wrong strategic decisions (Bulldozer/Piledriver "module" design) and poor tactical management (290/290x's botched release).
Intel may be guilty of using its clout in unfair ways (like influencing benchmark tools to favour its CPUs) but AMD has only itself to blame for their griefs.


----------



## Octopuss (Aug 11, 2015)

Agreemenot said:


> Intel didnt do nuffin! Why dont you read up upon what they were charged on?  You obviously think its easy and simple to compete with someone that has so much more than you, connections, funds, ties etc., something other than a product.


Oh look, someone is successful, that's wrong, let's stop him!
Sounds like communist thinking. Are you for real?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 11, 2015)

@Agreemenot As several others before me have said, Intel used to be the one without the money and clout and power.  AMD squandered their lead, pure and simple.  

Fear not though, AMD will not disappear, since a monopoly would not be allowed.  So if they don't find a way to be profitable again, or if someone doesn't buy them, they will get propped up by government before being allowed to fold, so in effect, the poor little guy will get rewarded for countless bad decisions that put them where they are.

Don't take my words wrong, I want them to be successful and regain status. It's better for their employees, the economy and for all consumers due to lower prices on Intel and Nvida products.  I'm just able to tell you, without emotion, what the truth behind their downfall is.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 11, 2015)

Tatty_One said:


> Noone is denying the power and influence of Intel, the point is a while ago, OK a long while ago, AMD was not only competitive but offered CPU's that generally out performed Intel's offerings, so how is it that Intel in the last 10 years has come such a long way and AMD have not?  AMD had the market share and so I assume the profitability back then but it would at least appear that Intel's strategy, business models, innovation, investment and intent has got them to where they are now, yes perhaps with some dodgy dealing along the journey but it would appear that AMD's strategy etc just failed, perhaps I am over simplifying things but it's what I see from my view sadly.


Question, is it easier now to rival Intel or was it harder back then? 



Octopuss said:


> Oh look, someone is successful, that's wrong, let's stop him!
> Sounds like communist thinking. Are you for real?


Seems you like monopoly. Are you for real?



rtwjunkie said:


> @Agreemenot As several others before me have said, Intel used to be the one without the money and clout and power.  AMD squandered their lead, pure and simple.
> 
> Fear not though, AMD will not disappear, since a monopoly would not be allowed.  So if they don't find a way to be profitable again, or if someone doesn't buy them, they will get propped up by government before being allowed to fold, so in effect, the poor little guy will get rewarded for countless bad decisions that put them where they are.
> 
> Don't take my words wrong, I want them to be successful and regain status. It's better for their employees, the economy and for all consumers due to lower prices on Intel and Nvida products.  I'm just able to tell you, without emotion, what the truth behind their downfall is.


AMD squandered their lead, pure and simple? Simple is what YOU want it to be. Its much more complex than that. AMD vs Intel case shows that. As if it is Intel vs AMD products and not some or any nationalist(location), zionist, political(corruption/jobs) or military/agency factor involved also and more.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 11, 2015)

Agreemenot said:


> Question, is it easier now to rival Intel or was it harder back then?
> 
> 
> Seems you like monopoly. Are you for real?
> ...



Youare a complete conspiracy theorist and nutjob.  Ever hear of the free market, or does that not exist in your obviously socialist head? Good grief, I'm actually going to have to use the ignore button finally.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 11, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> Youare a complete conspiracy theorist and nutjob.  Ever hear of the free market, or does that not exist in your obviously socialist head? Good grief, I'm actually going to have to use the ignore button finally.



I think him and Sony are friends. Makes sense.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 11, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> Youare a complete conspiracy theorist and nutjob.  Ever hear of the free market, or does that not exist in your obviously socialist head? Good grief, I'm actually going to have to use the ignore button finally.


You're just reaffirming my point, that you want it to be seen and taken simply as it suits you.  Also Free = Opportunity = Affordability, Market = Choices. What choices do you get now? Z170 and 6600K/6700K ,eh? How am i socialist when i point out that governments propped up Intel without competitive bidding? http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/37286.html


----------



## Octopuss (Aug 11, 2015)

I have to leave the thread before I start calling people female genitals out of pure frustration over infinite idiocy.

P.S. Intel is part of the big *Judeo-Masonic conspiracy*


----------



## Sony Xperia S (Aug 11, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> I think him and Sony are friends. Makes sense.



I think you just are too silly and confused, with blind eyes.

It doesn't make sense for people with AMD's products nicknames to be such.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 11, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> I have to leave the thread before I start calling people female genitals out of pure frustration over infinite idiocy.
> 
> P.S. Intel is part of the big *Judeo-Masonic conspiracy*


Bait. Jews and Israel are no joke. Merely you who do not know or understand how sophisticated the Israeli military is and how they need appropriate hardware to run their software(battle management/bc), like a P3 lv/ulv and such.


----------



## radrok (Aug 11, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> I think you just are too silly and confused, with blind eyes.
> 
> It doesn't make sense for people with AMD's products nicknames to be such.



I think his name isn't derived from an AMD product, I recall it was about motorbikes, and even if it was so, why would it matter?

This thread is becoming a general nonsense one.

I'm also wearing a double tinfoil helmet (a simple hat would be useless here).


----------



## Sihastru (Aug 11, 2015)

There's a lot of misinformation going on in this thread...



rtwjunkie said:


> As to bundling a gpu in the cpu, that's what AMD's APU are, and they were doing it first. Intel jist played catchup.  Because Intel is a well-run company, the made up for lost time quickly.



AMD's first CPU with integrated GPU (or APU as they call it) was announced in January 2011. They called it Llano/Brazos.

Intel HD Graphics 1st gen was introduced in January 2010 with Clarkdale/Arrandale. True, it was a multi die design, but it shared the CPU's package. One full year before AMD. In January 2011, Intel's HD Graphics gen 2 was launched with Sandy Bridge.

Just calling it an "APU" doesn't make it special in any way, the CPU and GPU work mostly independently for both AMD and Intel.

So who was first?

And I don't even know what to say about Sony Xperia S... The only logical explanation is that he's Richard Huddy. But not exactly Huddy, but some kind of failed clone. If we take Aliens for example, and we consider that it takes 8 tries to get a clone right(ish), then Sony Xperia S is attempt number 4. You know, the clone that is rejected before it reaches the factory for Soylent Green.

Sony, dude, your ramblings hurt even the brains of the most avid AMD fans. If we are to believe you, Intel and nVIDIA are to blame for everything that's wrong with the world. And I'm not saying it is not possible, but the way you fabricate illogical conspiracies in your convoluted mind... there's not enough tin foil in the universe.

Peace!


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 12, 2015)

Look.

This needs to stop. This was about the new quad-core Skylake die being delidded. Why is it that out of the past 10 threads in which I've participated/come across, half of them have to do with me doing my best to stop the bullshit nonsense that propagates from people like Sony Xperia S, rather than discussing something productive?

I'm not going to mince words. No one invited conspiracy theorists and far-left socialists into this thread. This thread is about the new Skylake die. Whoever made the connection between die size and the lack of competition from AMD needs to go home with his tail between his legs and be silenced permanently. Why is it that some people think that you can have a Mount Everest of silicon on a CPU without it having side effects pertaining to heat and power consumption? Hello? Are physics different in your universe? I assume that most users here are level-headed and are able to understand why Skylake's die is so small, unlike the nutjob who assumed that pressure from AMD will cause Intel to shit its pants and drop massive amounts of silicon onto every CPU. AMD doesn't even have a goddamned iGPU on the quad-module CMT die and it's so damned big! It ain't Intel's fault that AMD is stuck on 32nm for its "enthusiast" platform and has no plans to go further. Oh wait, it probably is, according to all the conspiracies here. Want more cores? AMD has AM3+, and Intel has LGA2011. There's the door. You know what to do.

Moreover, when Intel was behind in '04-05, they knew that they could not sustain their business by crapping in their pants and adding more stuff on the die, because there were already more than enough heat-generating components on die. Intel's engineers found out the hard way, with Pentium D (as AMD's engineers are experiencing with Bulldozer), that they needed a fresh new design that directly addressed their problems: a terrible pipeline, heat and power consumption. 2011's release of Bulldozer had AMD looking the opposite direction instead; K10 was good, but it could use improvements in the cache speed and size (with Phenom X6, cache was no longer abundant per core), as well as a new process and small improvements elsewhere in the core. AMD's solution? Bulldozer said to K10 "you know what, f**k your problems, I'm going to take a dump all over them so we have to clean up both things later."

Free speech is a beautiful thing. It looks like some idiots are hell bent on pushing it to the boundaries of what common sense allows. The problem with all these random, shitty claims of foul play on Intel's part is that it spreads misinformation, metric tons of shit at a time.

Oh, and what about the guy who created an account here, more or less, for the sole purpose of shitting on this thread, which actually featured some interesting information about Skylake? Are YOU for real? How about you ask yourself the same question before dismissing others over their supposedly flawed political views? Hey, why don't you go and work for AMD? I'm sure they'd like a helping hand in political, conspiratorial bullshit with their upcoming Zen architecture. And color me surprised if you don't end up blaming Intel if Zen doesn't turn out that great.

One doesn't need to be an Intel fanboy to see how AMD has disastrously managed itself over the past few years. They literally sacrificed their CPU division by throwing away K10. That has nothing to do with Intel's shady dealings with OEMs.

**calms down, braces for inevitable shitstorm of incoming ignorance regarding more of how Intel and Intel solely is to be the death of AMD"*


----------



## rtwjunkie (Aug 12, 2015)

Nope, no shitstorm from me.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 12, 2015)

radrok said:


> I think his name isn't derived from an AMD product, I recall it was about motorbikes, and even if it was so, why would it matter?
> 
> This thread is becoming a general nonsense one.
> 
> I'm also wearing a double tinfoil helmet (a simple hat would be useless here).



Indeed. Has to do with motocross(MX) and 216 was my number. 

Now that thats overwith. @tabascosauz hit the nail on the head. Now lets talk about Delidding, and Skylake.


----------



## Agreemenot (Aug 12, 2015)

tabascosauz said:


> I'm not going to mince words. No one invited conspiracy theorists and far-left socialists into this thread.


There is no conspiracy. If you knew the meaning and origin of Banias, Dothan, Yonah and Merom then you might had understood. That Intel is the largest private-sector employer according to this 2012 article: http://www.zdnet.com/article/israel-inside-a-history-of-intels-r-d-in-israel/ in Israel means that Intel is important for Israel and Israel is important for Intel. So tell me, whats the conspiracy?



tabascosauz said:


> Free speech is a beautiful thing. It looks like some idiots are hell bent on pushing it to the boundaries of what common sense allows. The problem with all these random, shitty claims of foul play on Intel's part is that it spreads misinformation, metric tons of shit at a time.
> 
> Oh, and what about the guy who created an account here, more or less, for the sole purpose of shitting on this thread, which actually featured some interesting information about Skylake? Are YOU for real? How about you ask yourself the same question before dismissing others over their supposedly flawed political views? Hey, why don't you go and work for AMD? I'm sure they'd like a helping hand in political, conspiratorial bullshit with their upcoming Zen architecture. And color me surprised if you don't end up blaming Intel if Zen doesn't turn out that great.
> 
> One doesn't need to be an Intel fanboy to see how AMD has disastrously managed itself over the past few years. They literally sacrificed their CPU division by throwing away K10. That has nothing to do with Intel's shady dealings with OEMs.


Why thank you for your kind words, its just that i dont simply blame AMD for how things have turned out due to some of Intel practices and nor do i disregard other factors that may be involved as well. 

There are clear and good reasons to be dissatisfied with Intel, and what it has to offer. Deal with it.


----------



## tabascosauz (Aug 12, 2015)

Agreemenot said:


> There is no conspiracy. If you knew the meaning and origin of Banias, Dothan, Yonah and Merom then you might had understood. That Intel is the largest private-sector employer according to this 2012 article



Hahah. Nice try at trolling.

Banias - Pentium M <------------ Basically the origin of the Core architecture, here the development started to supplement P4 because it was so bad and Intel was getting its ass handed to it by AMD | Hebrew word
Dothan - 2nd gen Pentium M <--------------- 2nd iteration | Hebrew word
Yonah - First Core family, the Core Duos and Core Solos <------------- First appearance of the superior Core over Netburst, the fruits of Intel Israel's labours | Hebrew word?
Merom - Core 2 Duo mobile family, was to mobile as Conroe was to desktop (no shit Sherlock, this thing sitting beside me is called a T7100 and I'm well aware of the family of CPUs to which it belongs) <--------------- Core 2 is released to market, finally ending Pentium 4 | Hebrew word

Big deal. So Intel wanted to kill off Netburst, and Intel Israel did most of the work. What's the problem with honouring the country that turned Intel around by developing out of the old Pentium M? So, you tell me; what's your problem?

Disclaimer: I do not support Israel's political agendas, but I don't see a problem with honouring the work of the Israelis, which paid off with Core 2 after many long years and brought us the architecture that we know of today.

Like I said, why don't you send an email to Lisa Su and tell her about your opinions? I'm _*sure*_ she'll be *happy* to hear what you have to say, since you're an *extremely important* driving factor in the industry. In any case, take your "deal with it" attitude somewhere else. We come here to get our images of the 6700K's die, not to endure you.

It's about time someone came around and locked this thread. There isn't much to be said about Skylake (BORING in itself), which is the topic of the news post, since we know everything already and hardly anything has changed about delidding since Haswell (unless...but that's for another news post). This is going on and on, and this newcomer, who we would've otherwise welcomed, has led this thread off topic for long enough.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 12, 2015)

tabascosauz said:


> There isn't much to be said about Skylake



You didn't mention a single time how many square mm that thingie is. And I kindly asked you to do so...

and then we are speaking bout attitudes


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## RCoon (Aug 12, 2015)

This thread is about Skylake and delidding. I should thank you to keep the discussion to that, and leave politics, Israel and for some obscure bat-s*** insane reason, leave Jews out of it too. If you want to complain about a business using conspired shady practice, take your opinion to a forum that discusses such things, like GN. While you're at it, you can stop using products from businesses that do such things, which leaves you with, oh, I don't know, the Graze Box company? Enjoy eating your roasted nuts in the forest.

Back to tech. First and last request.


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## MxPhenom 216 (Aug 12, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> You didn't mention a single time how many square mm that thingie is. And I kindly asked you to do so...
> 
> and then we are speaking bout attitudes



I'm pretty sure a simple google search will give you that information. Not that it matters.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 12, 2015)

When politics enter any mix on a technical forum a slippery slope usually follows so it stops now, any more and I will not only start deleting posts but I will issue holiday passes...... thank you.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 12, 2015)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> I'm pretty sure a simple google search will give you that information. Not that it matters.



Oh, it matters, it matters. 9.05 mm by 13.52 mm, or 122.4 square mm.

Holy crap, look at those margins. I think a price reduction to somewhere between 100 and 200 $ would fit perfectly in order to make me think about purchase.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 12, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> Oh, it matters, it matters. 9.05 mm by 13.52 mm, or 122.4 square mm.
> 
> Holy crap, look at those margins. I think a price reduction to somewhere between 100 and 200 $ would fit perfectly *in order to make me think about purchase*.



Sorry, I don't believe that after months of posting absolute reams of anti Intel stuff in so many threads you would ever consider buying Intel, so trying to justify a so called realistic price point for this CPU that is around or even less $ than AMD's leading offerings whilst it out performs those AMD offerings by a large margin in most things is insulting everyone's intelligence especially your own


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## btarunr (Aug 12, 2015)

esrever said:


> Intel's profit margin must be insane for these.



It may cost less to make each chip (I guesstimate $30 per i7-6700K), but Intel has to pay for development of the 14 nm node (new machinery and R&D going into making them), and the countless engineers with 7 to 8-figure salaries, and in the end pay shareholders dividends; and make just enough profit to invest in the next product cycle. Intel grows with each cycle. It's only fair.


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## rtwjunkie (Aug 12, 2015)

So, back on topic, I for one am amazed, as a non-engineer, how much power and efficiency are built into such a small die.  It truly is a feat.  Sure, I poo-pooed the lack of soldering on at least the 6700k, but I doubt it will be easy to overheat this thing with halfway decent cooling, eliminating the need for built-in thermal throttling to kick off.

That said, I'm just not as compelled to upgrade from my 3770k as I am to upgrade my GPU.


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## Sony Xperia S (Aug 12, 2015)

Tatty_One said:


> Sorry, I don't believe that after months of posting absolute reams of anti Intel stuff in so many threads you would ever consider buying Intel, so trying to justify a so called realistic price point for this CPU that is around or even less $ than AMD's leading offerings whilst it out performs those AMD offerings by a large margin in most things is insulting everyone's intelligence especially your own



I am fine, do not worry about me. You compare 32 nm vs 14 nm...

Nothing is eternal, you know, not in this world.


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## Agreemenot (Aug 12, 2015)

tabascosauz said:


> Hahah. Nice try at trolling.
> 
> It's about time someone came around and locked this thread. There isn't much to be said about Skylake (BORING in itself), which is the topic of the news post, since we know everything already and hardly anything has changed about delidding since Haswell (unless...but that's for another news post). This is going on and on, and this newcomer, who we would've otherwise welcomed, has led this thread off topic for long enough.


If anyone is trolling its you and Octopussy making it out to be some conspiracy and using demeaning words towards others. Also you and others brought political ideology into it, not me, as i only mentioned "politics" as a factor.

That Skylake comes with TIM once again on a premium product and with only two choices and a chipset is something clearly to be dissatisfied about. Not only for the consumers/purchasers but reviewer as well. There's no E4* E6* Q6* and 9* G3* P35 and such as it was before.


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## Octopuss (Aug 12, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> That said, I'm just not as compelled to upgrade from my 3770k as I am to upgrade my GPU.


Agree. I am more than happy with my delidded 3770K doing about 76° on the hottest core at 4,4GHz under extreme load in this horrible weather (33-36°C for two weeks, kill me). I think it will last me for quite some time. I will probably  consider upgrading when next generation after Skylake comes out.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 12, 2015)

Sony Xperia S said:


> I am fine, do not worry about me. *You compare 32 nm vs 14 nm...*
> 
> Nothing is eternal, you know, not in this world.


No your wrong, I am comparing your mindset with Intel


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## rtwjunkie (Aug 12, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> Agree. I am more than happy with my delidded 3770K doing about 76° on the hottest core at 4,4GHz under extreme load in this horrible weather (33-36°C for two weeks, kill me). I think it will last me for quite some time. I will probably  consider upgrading when next generation after Skylake comes out.


 
Your temperatures would kill me!  That's our normal summer temperature (33-36 C) as well, but here everyone has air conditioning to get out of that heat and high humidity.


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## tabascosauz (Aug 12, 2015)

It looks like Skylake's thin substrate is causing delidding to be a little more complicated. http://www.overclock.net/t/1568357/skylake-delidded No vice method then.

However, since Skylake got rid of the additional FIVR, doing the razor method is a little less worrying. Plus, the die is so small and a lot more square than Haswell that you have plenty of wiggle room with the blade.

The user said that 5.1GHz without delid ran into throttling, but I'm not sure what kind of cooling this was under. If this was air, then we're in for a pleasant surprise.


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## twomacaque (Oct 26, 2015)

BorisDG said:


> Delided Broadwell -  5775C for those that are interesed:



Wow!  does the 5775C delidded fit under the famous Delid Guard?  Can anyone confirm?


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## BorisDG (Oct 26, 2015)

Why you want to delid it? The processor is relatively cold. Mine is 25-27 idle. Max load is 55-56.


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## twomacaque (Oct 26, 2015)

BorisDG said:


> Why you want to delid it? The processor is relatively cold. Mine is 25-27 idle. Max load is 55-56.



Awwww, Boris, _because it's there!  The challenge!_

Also --- max load cold doesn't mean it cannot run warmer when the GPU is under intense load.


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