# Valve now censoring Pirate Bay links in Steam chat client



## qubit (Apr 7, 2016)

The user who posted the links doesn't even get a warning that this has happened, either. The recipient sees the blocked message below. Other sites are blocked too.

Can't say I agree with this kind of censorship with some for-profit company acting as judge and jury over what's supposedly right and wrong, with the decision ultimately taken to protect those profits at the expense of its customers.









> Steam users who want to share a link to The Pirate Bay from the built-in chat client will be disappointed, as mentions of the popular torrent site are being censored. Links to various torrent and file-sharing sites are actively stripped from discussions, presumably because Valve doesn't appreciate some of the content that's shared through the site.



https://torrentfreak.com/steam-censors-pirate-bay-links-in-chat-client-160406


*EDIT 09APR16*

There's a related article on TF now which is relevant to this thread.

https://torrentfreak.com/linking-to-pirated-content-is-not-copyright-infringement-160407


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 7, 2016)

I voted in favor of Steam. It's a private, for profit site.  They can make any rules they want.  

The whole issue is no different than this very site, TPU, which is also private, and for profit.  W1z makes the rules of what can be said or posted or linked.


----------



## Kursah (Apr 7, 2016)

Well if they go hardline on all torrent links it keeps them out of any possible lawsuits...people and companirs  sue and win over stupid shit daily.

Playing C.Y.A. isn't a bad thing. There's other methods of sharing such links and can't say I've really ever relied on Steam chat much anyways so it really doesn't affect me.

Someone that uses Steam Chat a lot may or may not be affected. Regardless of what we agree on I'm sure Steam has us by the balls with QoS and account agreements in this one.

Can't say that I blame them in the end...to me it seems pretty minor overall and just a stunt to keep the lawsuit hounds from trying to get Valve on anything considered supporting or sharing links. Too bad they didnt give the finger to the man tho...

I gotta agree with RTW...I agree they can do this and have the right to.


----------



## little cat (Apr 7, 2016)

Just $5 for a game ! What more do people want ? The game is labor  which must be paid for - so simple . If a person is stealing others labor , his/her labor should be stolen as well


----------



## OneMoar (Apr 7, 2016)

they been doing this for ages nothing new
nobody with any sense relies on thepiratebay anymore


----------



## dirtyferret (Apr 7, 2016)

rtwjunkie said:


> I voted in favor of Steam. It's a private, for profit site.  They can make any rules they want.
> 
> The whole issue is no different than this very site, TPU, which is also private, and for profit.  W1z makes the rules of what can be said or posted or linked.





little cat said:


> Just $5 for a game ! What more do people want ? The game is labor  which must be paid for - so simple . If a person is stealing others labor , his/her labor should be stolen as well


x 10, pirating is not a right if fact you are stealing someone's IP


----------



## OneMoar (Apr 7, 2016)

dirtyferret said:


> x 10, pirating is not a right if fact you are stealing someone's IP


imaginary property ftw


----------



## dirtyferret (Apr 7, 2016)

OneMoar said:


> imaginary property ftw



until you enter a court of law


----------



## Jetster (Apr 7, 2016)

IF you posted a PB links here you would get censored also


----------



## erocker (Apr 7, 2016)

Me agreeing or disagreeing with Valve is irrelevant. They own the service and it is their right, protected by law to do as they please with their service.


----------



## qubit (Apr 7, 2016)

Crikey, most people agree with Valve. I guess I'm outnumbered!


----------



## Mussels (Apr 7, 2016)

its valves system, they can allow or disallow what they want.

just like TPU does.


----------



## Maban (Apr 7, 2016)

I changed my vote from no to other. I dislike that there is any type of censorship in a private chat but if such a link is to something illegal I can't really say it's wrong.

It does censor some things that it has no business censoring though, such as some porn sites. There should at the very most be a voluntary filter option and/or an age check.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 7, 2016)

if people wanna talk about big ol titties, i'm sure they can find somewhere other than steam to do it


----------



## puma99dk| (Apr 7, 2016)

little cat said:


> Just $5 for a game ! What more do people want ? The game is labor  which must be paid for - so simple . If a person is stealing others labor , his/her labor should be stolen as well



Labor and profit yes but that doesn't mean that u need to buy from €68 to €100 and more depending on the game and some of them u can only buy on steam not in a psychical store bcs they r online releases only.

It bothers me a lot the rules steam has if u buy it on steam and ur account get hacked they won't return the game to ur account, but if u buy a psychical copy they will give u the game back.

I don't want to buy these prices for that when u can get a PS4 or Xbox One game from €47 to like €68 and u get a physical copy of the game.

The prices needs to be lowered bcs this here is going over the edge bcs I think it most be cheaper having a digital version of the game stored on servers to be downloaded than u need to press out covers, plastic boxes and more paper to go instead plus the disc sadly this isn't the world I see 9 out of 10 times.


----------



## Ebo (Apr 7, 2016)

#15

Some of the way I totally agree with you, but not all the way. Today the digital copy is at the forfront over the fysical copy, lets face it. What Steam does regarding *their *rules thats something else, if they dont wanna be a platform, for sharing links to pirated software of any kind, they are in their right to do so and I totally agree with that.

The way I read your post is that you think a digital copy should be cheaper than a fisical copy, I just have to ask why ?, the product is still the same, meaning the game, it dosent really mean anything is you have it in your hand or you just DL it, but that only my opinion.


----------



## Sir B. Fannybottom (Apr 7, 2016)

Yeah, I really don't see how this is surprising to anyone, they own the system and they can do whatever they want with it. Steam is in the business of selling video games, I don't see why they would want people talking about ways to get those games for free


----------



## puma99dk| (Apr 7, 2016)

Ebo said:


> #15
> 
> Some of the way I totally agree with you, but not all the way. Today the digital copy is at the forfront over the fysical copy, lets face it. What Steam does regarding *their *rules thats something else, if they dont wanna be a platform, for sharing links to pirated software of any kind, they are in their right to do so and I totally agree with that.
> 
> The way I read your post is that you think a digital copy should be cheaper than a fisical copy, I just have to ask why ?, the product is still the same, meaning the game, it dosent really mean anything is you have it in your hand or you just DL it, but that only my opinion.



I mean the cost for printing all the stuff u get psychically is like it cost nuth to give u, bcs looking at steam it's like they charge u more to have the game stored on their servers than u actually can buy it and get a ton of things with u that u get on a "normal" digital release like the game.

I short I mean it's created digitally so it should also be cheaper to have stored digitally, rather than getting pressed on to one or five dvd's u can buy and than not use anyway.


----------



## Mussels (Apr 7, 2016)

guys, the word you need is PHYSICAL. Psychic and fiscal games just dont have the resell values.


----------



## Jetster (Apr 7, 2016)

Mussels said:


> guys, the word you need is PHYSICAL. Psychic and fiscal games just dont have the resell values.



My ex use to play Psychic games


----------



## silentbogo (Apr 7, 2016)

qubit said:


> The user who posted the links doesn't even get a warning that this has happened, either. The recipient sees the blocked message below. Other sites are blocked too.
> 
> Can't say I agree with this kind of censorship with some for-profit company acting as judge and jury over what's supposedly right and wrong, with the decision ultimately taken to protect those profits at the expense of its customers.



I am a TPB user for almost 10 years, but I still voted "Yes".
There are at least few reasons:
1) _Subscriber Agreement_ section 2.G
2) _Subscriber Agreement_ section 6 (especially pay attention to paragraph 2)

If you are worried that automatic chat censorship infringes your privacy, or something:
3) _Privacy Policy_, section _Chats Forums etc._

All available in your Steam client through the _Help_ menu.

To recompile it all in a short sentence: You are using steam service on their terms, and you gave them the right to modify your content (including chats and forum posts). 

I used to download games off TPB some time ago, because game demos almost disappeared from Steam, but today I simply prefer to wait at least 6 months after release to see some solid reviews/feedback and gameplay videos (and to avoid trojan-infused ISOs). Now I simply download few of my favorite TV shows in English, due to low-quality translation on local networks (though almost everything is available for free through legit streaming services and IPTV).


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 7, 2016)

Jetster said:


> My ex use to play Psychic games


Don't you mean Psycho?
I think all ex's play that game.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Apr 7, 2016)

Didnt valve do something similar  to this a few years back? I remember there being a major uproar about a similar thing


----------



## animal007uk (Apr 7, 2016)

Fair play to valve i would do the same if it was my service and if people don't like it tough shit.


----------



## qubit (Apr 7, 2016)

animal007uk said:


> Fair play to valve i would do the same if it was my service and if people don't like it tough shit.


They can only get away with a  user unfriendly "tough shit" attitude like that because they're the dominant platform.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 7, 2016)

qubit said:


> They can only get away with a  user unfriendly "tough shit" attitude like that because they're the dominant platform.



Then you have to wonder how they get away with it here? TPU is hardly the dominant platform, and censors basically the same content.

They get away with it because it is right.


----------



## animal007uk (Apr 7, 2016)

qubit said:


> They can only get away with a  user unfriendly "tough shit" attitude like that because they're the dominant platform.



As far as i am concerned they are doing a lot of people a favor by blocking links for the simple fact its steam not a damn torrent site or a place to spam links and also stops people with half a brain clicking any old link and downloading shite they know nothing about and that could harm the pc.

At the end of the day i use steam to buy and play my games and i don't give a flying monkeys if i cant post a link in chat when i have 100's of other ways to do the same thing.


----------



## Easy Rhino (Apr 7, 2016)

WARNING: Old Man Rant Incoming...

Before Steam existed and before online retailing, you had to drive your ass to the store (or beg your parents to drive you there) and put down $50 for a game you may end up hating. You were basically stuck with it unless you could return it for store credit or pawn it off on a friend. Steam has done everything possible to make it easy for gamers to download content at a very competitive price. Why would someone take it upon themselves to try and ruin it by posting torrent links to games? We owe Steam a debt of gratitude for all of the hard work they put into the platform. They go above and beyond for the customer and have won hearts and minds by providing a highly reliable service. Whoever posted the links should be perma banned from Steam and all other platforms. He/She is a cancer. Kids these days just don't know how good they have it.


----------



## dirtyferret (Apr 7, 2016)

Easy Rhino said:


> WARNING: Old Man Rant Incoming...
> 
> Before Steam existed and before online retailing, you had to drive your ass to the store (or beg your parents to drive you there) and put down $50 for a game you may end up hating. You were basically stuck with it unless you could return it for store credit or pawn it off on a friend. Steam has done everything possible to make it easy for gamers to download content at a very competitive price. Why would someone take it upon themselves to try and ruin it by posting torrent links to games? We owe Steam a debt of gratitude for all of the hard work they put into the platform. They go above and beyond for the customer and have won hearts and minds by providing a highly reliable service. Whoever posted the links should be perma banned from Steam and all other platforms. He/She is a cancer. Kids these days just don't know how good they have it.



lets not forget my favorite part of old time PC gaming, getting home and installing the game...and then finding out you need the patch.  Calling the number and leaving your name and address and waiting four weeks for the patch disks to arrive via snail mail. 

If you don't like steam's rules, go take your money to another digital game provider.  Plenty of others out there.


----------



## RejZoR (Apr 8, 2016)

While I'm against censorship, I perfectly understand Valve. Then again, with Steam, do people seriously still bother pirating games? Like for reals? I can't be bothered fiddling with cracks and shit when Steam is so dirty cheap and delivers games faster than torrenting.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2016)

They censor my afraid.org subdomain too.  It makes linking to files/games I'm hosting a PITA.

The nature of torrents is not evil, malicious, nor criminal.

I find the censorhip in both cases unwarranted and annoying.


----------



## puma99dk| (Apr 8, 2016)

RejZoR said:


> While I'm against censorship, I perfectly understand Valve. Then again, with Steam, do people seriously still bother pirating games? Like for reals? I can't be bothered fiddling with cracks and shit when Steam is so dirty cheap and delivers games faster than torrenting.



cheap? 

mby in ur country, i feel like in dk steam games is more expensive than in the psychical shop like Gamestop


----------



## RejZoR (Apr 8, 2016)

New games yes, but prices drop very quickly (except everything from Activision). I buy new games on CD-Keys because they are priced the same as or cheaper than retail, but for older games, Steam is by far the cheapest (usually).


----------



## Jetster (Apr 8, 2016)

While I commend PB for helping keep the internet the wild frontier it is today. Its a cesspool of a repository.


----------



## silentbogo (Apr 8, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> They censor my afraid.org subdomain too. It makes linking to files/games I'm hosting a PITA.
> 
> The nature of torrents is not evil, malicious, nor criminal.
> 
> I find the censorhip in both cases unwarranted and annoying.


The whole point of automatic filtering is to cover as much ground as they can not just against pirates, but any untrusted resource (especially if you consider ever rising Steam account thefts). Some forums block all third-party links in order to protect their users, which is very annoying, but also very effective. Also I don't see any of you complaining about spam filtering (which can throw perfectly normal and even trusted emails with viagra pills), or profanity filtering on some online resources.


----------



## CounterZeus (Apr 8, 2016)

I don't like filtering in private chat, but at least they can let the user know their link has been censored.


----------



## RejZoR (Apr 8, 2016)

They also protect Steam users from account stealer malware that may lurk even on PirateBay.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2016)

silentbogo said:


> The whole point of automatic filtering is to cover as much ground as they can not just against pirates, but any untrusted resource (especially if you consider ever rising Steam account thefts). Some forums block all third-party links in order to protect their users, which is very annoying, but also very effective. Also I don't see any of you complaining about spam filtering (which can throw perfectly normal and even trusted emails with viagra pills), or profanity filtering on some online resources.


Chat is private so the these links are often provided post solicitation or related to an ongoing discussion.  It is not spam because it's not possible to chat in Steam without first being friends.

The fact you can't friend anyone until after you spend $5 in the Steam store has hugely prevented unsolicited friend invites.  I don't like the policy but I do like that it worked to curb malicious friend invites.


99% of spam emails are spam coming from botnets and the like.  It's criminal activity.  There's nothing wrong with mail servers sorting likely spam messages into a junk mail bin.  Frankly, I wish ISPs would cut the botnets off at their source so they never reach us.

Steam chat does not have a profanity filter but everything in public (forum/reviews/guides/etc.) is.  It's a little bit on the overzealous side.


----------



## xorbe (Apr 8, 2016)

Their chat client, their rules.  It's probably trivial to work around if you need to.  Agreed that it shouldn't silently drop messages for users in good standing.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 8, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> The nature of torrents is not evil, malicious, nor criminal.



They aren't censoring torrents, they are censoring the pirate bay.  The nature of the pirate bay is evil, malicious, and criminal.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 8, 2016)

What Pirate Bay does is no different than Google, Yahoo, Bing, and the other search engines.  Is the nature of search engines "evil, malicious and criminal?"  I'd argue not.  Search engines are necessary for the Internet to function as intended just as the Pirate Bay indexes torrents.  The only difference is that Pirate Bay doesn't even try to censor torrents where Google censors websites (e.g. DMCA takedown requests).  At the same time, the source for both still exists; Google simply doesn't link it.  The _only_ criminal activity is the source itself.  Attacking index services fits my definition of "evil, malicious, and criminal."

Case in point, a lot of free Linux distributions are indexed by Pirate Bay.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 8, 2016)

qubit said:


> The user who posted the links doesn't even get a warning that this has happened, either. The recipient sees the blocked message below. Other sites are blocked too.
> 
> Can't say I agree with this kind of censorship with some for-profit company acting as judge and jury over what's supposedly right and wrong, with the decision ultimately taken to protect those profits at the expense of its customers.
> 
> ...


Its pretty simple. Valve is a US company. Piracy isn't allowed in the US. So they make active attempts to block it. If you don't like it, don't use Steam.

Piracy is stupid and pointless. I've never found or needed a single reason to do it other than being a cheap ass. I say kudos to Steam and any ISP that takes active steps to stop the QQing neckbeards from getting their latest bubblegum anime rape simulators.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 8, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> What Pirate Bay does is no different than Google, Yahoo, Bing, and the other search engines.  Is the nature of search engines "evil, malicious and criminal?"  I'd argue not.  Search engines are necessary for the Internet to function as intended just as the Pirate Bay indexes torrents.  The only difference is that Pirate Bay doesn't even try to censor torrents where Google censors websites (e.g. DMCA takedown requests).  At the same time, the source for both still exists; Google simply doesn't link it.  The _only_ criminal activity is the source itself.  Attacking index services fits my definition of "evil, malicious, and criminal."
> 
> Case in point, a lot of free Linux distributions are indexed by Pirate Bay.



The fact that they don't comply to DMCA requests makes them very different from Google, Yahoo, Bing, and any other search engine that follows the law.  And their purpose of spreading access to pirated material, which is why they don't comply with DMCA requests, is exactly what makes them evil, malicious, and criminal.  It doesn't matter that they _also_ index legit downloads, their purpose is to index illegal downloads.


----------



## johnspack (Apr 9, 2016)

I don't like it myself,  but I actually think it's appropriate in this case.  Steam is not a place to discuss dling from other sources period.  It is their service,  they set the rules.
As much as I hate myself for saying that.....


----------



## erocker (Apr 9, 2016)

@qubit 

If you were to build a server and host various things on it (chat, storage, etc.) You wouldn't bother watching what people put on your server? Would you comply with any cease and desist orders, laws etc? 


FordGT90Concept said:


> The nature of torrents is not evil, malicious, nor criminal



The nature of torrents is irrelevant. The nature of people and their actions are not.


----------



## cadaveca (Apr 9, 2016)

We pay Vavle for games, not a chat service; it's "free" add-on, so you get what you are given, and that's that. There are plenty of other options for chatting with people, so I don't care what Valve does with my chat.

Of course, none of what Valve does affects my usage of games purchased through STEAM, so I have zero complaints.


----------



## Ahhzz (Apr 9, 2016)

Easy Rhino said:


> WARNING: Old Man Rant Incoming...
> 
> Before Steam existed and before online retailing, you had to drive your ass to the store (or beg your parents to drive you there) and put down $50 for a game you may end up hating. You were basically stuck with it unless you could return it for store credit or pawn it off on a friend. Steam has done everything possible to make it easy for gamers to download content at a very competitive price. Why would someone take it upon themselves to try and ruin it by posting torrent links to games? We owe Steam a debt of gratitude for all of the hard work they put into the platform. They go above and beyond for the customer and have won hearts and minds by providing a highly reliable service. Whoever posted the links should be perma banned from Steam and all other platforms. He/She is a cancer. Kids these days just don't know how good they have it.


Actually, I drove my ass to the store, picked up the latest PC Gamer for $4, and tried the 15 different demos on it, picked one or two I enjoyed playing, and _then_ spent the money on a game I liked. 
I don't _owe_ Steam anything, thank you.


----------



## Ithanul (Apr 9, 2016)

puma99dk| said:


> Labor and profit yes but that doesn't mean that u need to buy from €68 to €100 and more depending on the game and some of them u can only buy on steam not in a psychical store bcs they r online releases only.
> 
> It bothers me a lot the rules steam has if u buy it on steam and ur account get hacked they won't return the game to ur account, but if u buy a psychical copy they will give u the game back.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that the only thing that been rubbing wacky with digital stuff.  Of course also the reason I wait for the games to drop by 50-75% or more before I buy them.

Think only peeps I know who sell digital version of stuff cheaper then physical is a book retailer called Baen.  The digital like half or lower than the fresh new release of physical book.  Plus DRM free.  Reason I have no problem buying digital books from them.

But yeah, Valve has the ability to do what they want with the chat.  Though, who are dumb nuts using that to share torrent links?  Way better ways to do stuff like that, though I have not really bother with that stuff since High School.  Even though I still know several people who do such and heck, knew another peep who knew how to hard mod a Wii and Xbox 360 to run burn game discs (though, if he really liked the game he usually was the first chap to buy the deluxe set).



Ahhzz said:


> Actually, I drove my ass to the store, picked up the latest PC Gamer for $4, and tried the 15 different demos on it, picked one or two I enjoyed playing, and _then_ spent the money on a game I liked.
> I don't _owe_ Steam anything, thank you.


!!!  They still do demos?  Darn, think I need to start checking those magazines out more often.  I miss the days of demos.  Whole reason I every bought certain games on consoles or PCs years ago.


----------



## qubit (Apr 9, 2016)

erocker said:


> @qubit
> 
> If you were to build a server and host various things on it (chat, storage, etc.) You wouldn't bother watching what people put on your server? Would you comply with any cease and desist orders, laws etc?



Ok, I've been trying to stay out of this as I know how it tends to go such as getting the thread shut down and infractions all round, but as it's you it should be safe.  Also, to be honest, I misjudged how many people would be pro Valve on this one. I thought it would be the other way round, silly me, lol.

Yes, of course I would watch what's happening on my server and would never treat my members with a blase, lack of respect attitude since it's them who keep me in business, as it is for any site, regardless of whether membership is free or not. However, I would keep censorship to an absolute minimum and reserve it for extreme things such as terrorism, threats of violence against other members, snuff videos, videos of extreme cruelty to people or animals, posts explaining how to commit crime eg credit card fraud and get away with it etc.

Also, depending on the purpose of the forum, I would enforce members treating each other with respect to varying degrees. If running a tech forum like this or perhaps a self-help forum for people with personal issues eating disorders for example, then my rules wouldn't be all that different to TPU - a bit more relaxed for the tech forum, but no gratuitious trolling or personal attacks and about the same or even tighter for the self-help forum.

However, if it was a forum about conspiracy theories / idiotic ideas (my favourite one of the moment is the flat earth idea that some really stupid people believe) and religion then I'd get the popcorn out and they can have at it, short of the extreme stuff above. In fact, I've been wanting to set up just such a forum for some time now and even have the URL registered, but that's one for another discussion.

I would have a very clear forum policy / rules too and if someone made such a flagrant abuse of them with the extreme stuff twice they would get suspended or permabanned straight off, depending on the exact circumstances, especially their attitude.

What gets me even more than the actual censorship with Valve is the fact that no warning is given to the poster. Telling them it's going to be censored when they hit Send, or having the link removed in the same way at their end is the respectful way for Valve to treat their customers. As it is, I don't use Steam much for social interaction anyway and I've never had a private conversation with someone on there so in practical terms this doesn't affect me. I just don't think what they're doing is right, for the reasons I've explained in my OP and on here.

As Ford was saying, TPB is just a search engine for torrents, nothing more and there are perfectly legal uses of TPB too. It's not a cesspit like Jetster thinks, any more than google, which will also find every torrent going (short of those many pulled ones courtesy of DMCA takedowns) and will even find horrible videos on torture, killings etc yet it's not branded in the same way by big media and governments as a torrent search site. Now there's a double standard if ever I saw one.

The difference between TPB and other similar sites is their amazing, incredible resiliance against the massive political and financial powers of big media and the governments who team up with them to try and destroy it. Yeah, they have a "stick it to the man" attitude which gets right up their adversary's noses - good. This whole piracy causes widespread financial losses claim is garbage as can be seen when looked at objectively and crucially, it has never been proved in any court. In particular, various _independent_ university studies have been carried out over the years which all show that so-called "piracy" either has a negligible effect on sales, no effect, or actually increases sales in some cases due to greater exposure of the product.

Before anyone demands that I "prove it", no I don't have these studies to hand as I've not saved any of them, having seen them or read articles about them casually. However, I have seen articles about them on the internet and in respected print publications like MicroMart, so I'm not making it up. A bit of googling should reveal them, too.

As far as complying with cease and desist orders, that would depend in the first instance on how I felt about their merit in the first place. If I agree, then I would action them immediately. If I didn't agree with them, then it would depend on how the law stood over the issue and how large and powerful the other side was. As an ordinary Joe with a regular job, I couldn't fight some big media corporation regardless of the merit of their cease and desist order, so would most likely have to comply even if I could technically win in court, much to my annoyance.

I've just seen this related article on TF which is relevant to this thread and I'm gonna add it to my OP after I finish writing this post, too.

https://torrentfreak.com/linking-to-pirated-content-is-not-copyright-infringement-160407

Ok, I've gone on a bit and hope this answers your question!


@FordGT90Concept I think you've done a great job debating this from a similar point of view to mine.

@TheMailMan78 As usual I don't agree with you on this sort of thing, but it's good seeing you on here. If you want to discuss it further, please pm me.


----------



## Caring1 (Apr 9, 2016)

Ahhzz said:


> Actually, I drove my ass to the store, picked up the latest PC Gamer for $4, and tried the 15 different demos on it, picked one or two I enjoyed playing, and _then_ spent the money on a game I liked.
> I don't _owe_ Steam anything, thank you.


I preferred the early days when they put full games on discs for free, and a few demos, then they stopped the free games.


----------



## cadaveca (Apr 9, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> I preferred the early days when they put full games on discs for free, and a few demos, then they stopped the free games.


The things that took mags like PC Gamer and MaximumPC out of the equation are the same things that has Valve treating this situation as they do. Everyone with a STEAM account agreed to the EULA, and if they didn't read the EULA that basically Valve can do whatever they want, and you have no legal recourse, means that even bickering about what they might do,_because you paid them_ isn't valid. You agreed to be treated this way when you created your account. So you either follow their rules, and be happy about it, or you be a hypocrite and complain that they are doing exactly what they said they would... whatever they want to do.

EULA's are still legally binding contracts, so I don't get what the fuss is, really.

I just can't help but think of Vivendi's lawsuit against Valve oh-so-long-ago... it was kind of the same thing. "Oh, STEAM did this, we paid them, now they owe us". Guess what the courts told Vivendi....


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 9, 2016)

Ahhzz said:


> Actually, I drove my ass to the store, picked up the latest PC Gamer for $4, and tried the 15 different demos on it, picked one or two I enjoyed playing, and _then_ spent the money on a game I liked.



That sounds like a lot of work...  is there a way I can accomplish this without actually moving?

Oh yeah, steam.  Thanks steam! 

Back to being serious...

The only issue I have with steam is it's monopoly on the market.  I could use a few other good services (besides ucrap) providing a good digital platform and marketplace.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 9, 2016)

erocker said:


> You wouldn't bother watching what people put on your server?


I actually had insecure FTP on my server for a while (probably 7 years ago) and someone found out and started uploading shit to it.  I don't know long it was up before I discovered it, removed the uploaded content, and shut the FTP server down because it was no longer in use.



cadaveca said:


> EULA's are still legally binding contracts, so I don't get what the fuss is, really.


EULAs are not enforceable until a court rules it is.  They do not have the power of law.


----------



## cadaveca (Apr 9, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> EULAs are not enforceable until a court rules it is.  They do not have the power of law.


It's a contract. Which is binding by law here. Maybe not in the US, but remember laws are different from country to country. As long as the contract is not asking you to break the law, it's enforceable.

Also keep in mind I eat poutine and ketchup potato chips. Oh, and back bacon and maple syrup.

So you may be right for the US, but not for Canada.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 9, 2016)

It's an agreement, not a contract.  The terms have to be ruled on individually by a court on a case-by-case basis to determine whether or not they are binding.  This isn't unique to the USA because the nature of the EULA is not that of a contract: they don't clearly explain the terms to you in a way you can understand and affirm that you understand, and will obey, the terms as conveyed.

Steam's subscriber agreement, for example, can change at a whim and by continuing to use services, you agree to the terms.  Contracts don't work that way.  If the terms of the agreement changes, the same explanation and understanding song and dance has to occur for it to constitute being a formal contract.  The courts know that people will continue to use the service even if they disagree with the terms because they're already invested in it through the previous terms.  This is where EULAs lose their footing in courts because you, the end-user, can prove you were damaged by their changing the terms which resulted in losing access to the service.  Again, it's for the courts to decide on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## cadaveca (Apr 9, 2016)

Contracts and agreements are basically the same thing here. Two parties agreeing to terms. Legally here a EULA is a contract, no if's ands or buts. It's defined as a contract between the programmer and user on how the software may be used.


----------



## erocker (Apr 9, 2016)

qubit said:


> Ok, I've been trying to stay out of this as I know how it tends to go such as getting the thread shut down and infractions all round, but as it's you it should be safe.  Also, to be honest, I misjudged how many people would be pro Valve on this one. I thought it would be the other way round, silly me, lol.
> 
> Yes, of course I would watch what's happening on my server and would never treat my members with a blase, lack of respect attitude since it's them who keep me in business, as it is for any site, regardless of whether membership is free or not. However, I would keep censorship to an absolute minimum and reserve it for extreme things such as terrorism, threats of violence against other members, snuff videos, videos of extreme cruelty to people or animals, posts explaining how to commit crime eg credit card fraud and get away with it etc.
> 
> ...


My argument isn't "pro-Valve" it's "pro-personal property, I dictate what I do with it within the law in order to keep my customers (both end-user and developer/publisher) and governing body happy and within compliance to their mutual agreements."


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 9, 2016)

Just more Robin hood, sky is falling crap. I swear it's a gaming platform. Not the Boston tea party.people need to get over themselves.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 9, 2016)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Just more Robin hood, sky is falling crap. I swear it's a gaming platform. Not the Boston tea party.people need to get over themselves.



I think you're just mad people aren't responding to your fishing attempts like they used to.


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 9, 2016)

qubit said:


> As Ford was saying, TPB is just a search engine for torrents, nothing more and there are perfectly legal uses of TPB too. It's not a cesspit like Jetster thinks, any more than google, which will also find every torrent going (short of those many pulled ones courtesy of DMCA takedowns) and will even find horrible videos on torture, killings etc yet it's not branded in the same way by big media and governments as a torrent search site. Now there's a double standard if ever I saw one.



This whole statement is total BS.  The intent behind the action, legally, has a large impact on the legality and morality of doing something.  Just because Google and TPB seem to do the same thing( provide a searchable index of things on the interent) the intent behind that action does in fact affect the legality and morality of the action. The legal systems in most countries make the distinction that intent plays a role in the definition of a crime.  For example: Law enforcement is faced with two different car wrecks.  In both cases, the driver of a car crossed into oncoming traffic and was in a head on collision with another car.  In both cases the driver of the other car died, but the driver of the car that crossed over into oncoming traffic lived.  In one case, the driver that crossed had a seizure that caused him to cross over into oncoming traffic. He had no prior symptoms or history of seizures. There was no negligence on his part at all. In the other case, the driver that crossed over purposely crossed the center line for the purpose of hitting the other car and killing the driver. Turns out it was his ex-wife, and he wanted to kill her.  In the end, the action was the same.  They crossed over into oncoming traffic, crashed into another card, and killed the other driver.  However, one is going to jail and the other won't be charged with any crime, all because the intent behind the action was different.  This is specifically why the founders of TPB are currently in jail serving time and the founders of Google aren't.

Google does not intend to provide easy access to pirated content.  The fact that pirated content shows up in Google searches is a by-product of their automated internet indexing, but not their intent.  They also follow DMCA request.

TPB, on the other hand, intends to give easy access to pirated content.  So much so that the intent is right in their name.  The few legal uses TPB has is a by-product of their intent to provide easy access to pirated content through torrents.*  They also don't even acknowledge DMCA requests.

Also, TPB's system works different than Google's.  Google is an automated web crawler system, TPB is a submission based system.  The pirated content on TPB doesn't just show up on accident like it does on Google.

This isn't a double standard in any way.  If you can't see that intent makes a difference, you're probably one of those people that thinks 2-year olds should be charged with murder and sent to the electric chair because they were playing with a loaded gun an accidentally shot someone...

*And seriously, what idiot goes to TPB to get linux distros?  Go to the distro's website and get the torrent from there.  I just went to TPB and tried to download the latest version of Ubuntu.  There's one seed and the torrent downloads at 80KB/s.  I downloaded it straight from the torrent link on Ubuntu's website, and there are over 700 seeds and I downloaded it at 10MB/s.  TPB's legal uses are useless...


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 9, 2016)

This reminds me of someone who once posted a list of legal things posted on the Silk Road before the feds took it down, as if to legitimize it (The Silk Road was an illegal bitcoin "buy anything short of murder" marketplace). 

This did not change the fact the marketplace blatantly catered to selling illegal goods and drugs.  Just because someone sold their bunny slippers on there in a fit of retardation did not make it commonplace or it's intended use.  The way TPB conducts itself is similar.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 9, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> This did not change the fact the marketplace blatantly catered to selling illegal goods and drugs.


Are you implying that any marketplace the values privacy over all else is a bad thing?  The "Silk Road" could only exist because of the Tor network.  What are your thoughts on Tor?

Remember, Tor was how Manning and Snowden transmitted their documents to WikiLeaks.  The only reason why all of the aforementioned services turned to Tor is because governments dictate their activity is "criminal."  Fundamentally, Tor and everything stemming from it are the embodiment of freedom where governments that seek to prevent services like Tor from existing are the embodiment of control.

Tor was created as an experiment more so than a service.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 9, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Are you implying that any marketplace the values privacy over all else is a bad thing?



The "privacy" the silk road provided was not the issue.  It was still a submission based system and mods on the site were able to filter goods to legal content, but chose not to.  They actually encouraged the use of the site as an illegal marketplace, which makes them very complacent in the crimes commited there.



> The "Silk Road" could only exist because of the Tor network.  What are your thoughts on Tor?



As my failed college degree was largely in cryptography and I've actually worked with the I2p project, I can safely say I don't like TOR...   I prefer I2P's architecture, but I'm thinking you are asking a different question.

I'm all for encryption and onion networks in general.  I see them as a big enabler of human rights, if that's what you are getting at.  I also see abuse of encryption/anonymizers as a huge issue albeit a neccesary one due to how the technology works.  Do not mistake that for me condoning illegal acts facilitated with encryption...  although there are some obviously locale related illegal activities that I support on such networks (such as the posting of political content on social media from say, Iran, China, or somewhere similar)

I'm very pro intellectual property though.  I'm a game developer by trade now.  I have to be.

EDIT:  Corrected some ambiguities.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Apr 9, 2016)

Who cares?

There's very few legitimate reasons to be sharing tpb/torrent links, no I don't care about that one time you shared academic research because we all know what tbp really is. 

Valve owns the platform, valve makes the rules. If you don't like it than use a different chat platform, it's not 1990 there's like a million of them.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (Apr 9, 2016)

@R-T-B: I was more after anonymity (the main advantage of Tor).  Criminals love Tor because it is about the only way to communicate about illegal behavior online while remaining anonymous.  The only way to stop the criminal activity on Tor is to stop Tor entirely.


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 9, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> @R-T-B: I was more after anonymity (the main advantage of Tor).  Criminals love Tor because it is about the only way to communicate about illegal behavior online while remaining anonymous.  The only way to stop the criminal activity on Tor is to stop Tor entirely.



Of course.  I sorta edited in a correction to that point (I2p includes encryption in it's anonymizing network, TOR does not, again I take issue with this and my background is showing )

I still support the availability of the network.  But my feelings towards those criminals using it for actual trading of illegal content?  If they get caught I have no sympathy.

As far as talk, heck you can do that on the general internet.  Last I checked you can talk about illegal anything as long as you don't actually commit a crime in doing so.  Even NAMBLA has an online presence on the standard internet IIRC (an advocacy group for pedos).

I know people will misuse anonymizing technology for criminal data, be it pirated content, porn, or whatever.  I also know that people will go to jail in our justice system for crimes they did not commit.  It doesn't make me think "jeeze, we need to do away with justice entirely..."  In both cases, I feel the benefits outweigh the negatives.  Hope that clarifies.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Apr 9, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I think you're just mad people aren't responding to your fishing attempts like they used to.



No, I don't think so.  I see his frustration because way more has been made out of this than there needs to be. The discussion has exploded way beyond the only issue that matters:

Steam belongs to Valve, not you or I or anyone else.  It's their platform, they make the rules.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Apr 9, 2016)

This went from steam censoring things to NAMBLA... this forum has gone to shit


----------



## animal007uk (Apr 9, 2016)

ShiBDiB said:


> This went from steam censoring things to NAMBLA... this forum has gone to shit


Agreed can't even comment without being called pro this or pro that its bullshit


----------



## Jetster (Apr 9, 2016)

How the f*** brought up NAMBLA?


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Apr 9, 2016)

R-T-B said:


> I think you're just mad people aren't responding to your fishing attempts like they used to.


Fishing? Please. If I were fishing I would get this thread shut down with a half dozen infractions handed out. 

I don't post much on TPU anymore because honestly it's turned into a bitching fest. People crying about perceived injustice instead of hardware and overclocking. TPU forums have lost its soul thanks to faggotry Robin Hoods and their gay crusades.


----------



## INSTG8R (Apr 9, 2016)

Doesn't matter either way. 1: I haven't pirated a game in years. 2: my ISP blocks Pbay anyway. I won't lie I torrent TV shows religiously but I don't need Pbay to do that


----------



## Drone (Apr 9, 2016)

I haven't read their _EULA_, so I dunno but then again I never used steam. Never understood why such middleman services exist in the first place.
Anywho if links contain some illegal material they should be censored if not then not, as simple as that.


----------



## INSTG8R (Apr 9, 2016)

Drone said:


> I haven't read their _EULA_, so I dunno but then again I never used steam. Never understood why such middleman services exist in the first place.
> Anywho if links contain some illegal material they should be censored if not then not, as simple as that.



Do you even game Bro? How could you not ever have used Steam?  I have over 300 games on mine to date. I couldn't imagine not using it. That said I also have prolly 20 games on Origin and at least a dozen on Uplay. I haven't bought a physical game since MW2(which was a Steamworks title anyway)


----------



## newtekie1 (Apr 9, 2016)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Are you implying that any marketplace the values privacy over all else is a bad thing?  The "Silk Road" could only exist because of the Tor network.  What are your thoughts on Tor?
> 
> Remember, Tor was how Manning and Snowden transmitted their documents to WikiLeaks.  The only reason why all of the aforementioned services turned to Tor is because governments dictate their activity is "criminal."  Fundamentally, Tor and everything stemming from it are the embodiment of freedom where governments that seek to prevent services like Tor from existing are the embodiment of control.
> 
> Tor was created as an experiment more so than a service.



Privacy has nothing to do with Silk Road.  Again, it all comes down to intent.  Tor does not intend for its services to be used for illegal activity.  The intent is to provide anonymity. It just so happens that criminals can use that to their advantage.

The Silk Road's intent wasn't to provide a private selling place, their intent was clearly to provide a place to sell illegal items.

Kodi is another perfect example.  They don't intend their software to be used to stream pirated content.  But people have created add-ons that allow just that.  And people even sell modified Amazon Fire Sticks with Kodi loaded, filled with add-ons that give easy access to stream pirated content.



ShiBDiB said:


> This went from steam censoring things to NAMBLA... this forum has gone to shit



It isn't like we are discussing NAMBLA.  It was used as an example of how a service that is largely legitimate is sometimes used for illegitimate things, but that doesn't make the service bad.  And just because that service has a few illegitimate uses, that doesn't mean the service is just as bad as something that focuses almost entirely on illegitimate uses.  We aren't discussing if NAMBLA is wrong or not.  The point is they use the internet for some of their criminal activity.  Even using standard HTTP, the lifeblood of the internet.  Does that mean HTTP is equally as bad as NAMBLA?  No.


----------



## Drone (Apr 9, 2016)

INSTG8R said:


> Do you even game Bro? How could you not ever have used Steam?  I have over 300 games on mine to date. I couldn't imagine not using it. That said I also have prolly 20 games on Origin and at least a dozen on Uplay. I haven't bought a physical game since MW2(which was a Steamworks title anyway)


I play Sony/Nintendo games, when on PC I play a couple of games on GOG and Diablo 3. Just because you live in your mom's basement and play 300 games doesn't mean everyone else does the same


----------



## INSTG8R (Apr 9, 2016)

Drone said:


> I play Sony/Nintendo games, when on PC I play a couple of games on GOG and Diablo 3. Just because you live in your mom's basement and play 300 games doesn't mean everyone else does the same



LOL I'm 40 and long past playing games in my mother's basement. I should report you for even suggesting such a thing. OH yeah I also have a couple games on GOG...My PS3 is just a Media Server...

Maybe YOU need you need to get out of YOUR basement....


----------



## R-T-B (Apr 10, 2016)

rtwjunkie said:


> Steam belongs to Valve, not you or I or anyone else.  It's their platform, they make the rules.



I actually agree with that premise.  My debate was largely philosophical.  I apologize if that bothered some, I get carried away sometimes.



> It isn't like we are discussing NAMBLA. It was used as an example of how a service that is largely legitimate is sometimes used for illegitimate things, but that doesn't make the service bad. And just because that service has a few illegitimate uses, that doesn't mean the service is just as bad as something that focuses almost entirely on illegitimate uses. We aren't discussing if NAMBLA is wrong or not. The point is they use the internet for some of their criminal activity. Even using standard HTTP, the lifeblood of the internet. Does that mean HTTP is equally as bad as NAMBLA? No.



Exactly.  It was only an example of how services are used.  I have no desire to debate NAMBLA in any way, but it is a completely relevant counter-example in the "TOR is only used for bad things so should be shut down" argument.

I have a background in anonymizing services, that's the only reason it came up.  If you don't want to hear about my background there, than please stop asking me about it.



INSTG8R said:


> Maybe YOU need you need to get out of YOUR basement....



Don't tell me what to do.  It's comfy here.


----------

