# Cooling Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Air v Water



## Valantar (Sep 2, 2021)

(Yes, that thread title is both a Star Wars reference and a reference to this being a never-ending discussion. As such, this being the 9th episode is likely _way_ too low.)

@The red spirit @AusWolf @Mussels @lexluthermiester @thesmokingman @FireFox Did I forget anyone?

Let's continue the air v. water/what's the point of water cooling discussion that threatened to get us all reply-banned from the tech purchase thread here, yeah? I can't be bothered to quote all the relevant posts, obvs. I'll likely chime in later, busy today.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

Water cooling is imo better for a gpu, mine is in the 20's idle and no higher than 50 load.


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

Not sure what's the point of such thread. We all have our preferences. That's it. There's really nothing else to discuss here. This thread can only end up in "my preference is better, so STFU" and I'm pretty sure that nobody wants that.


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Water cooling is imo better for a gpu, mine is in the 20's idle and no higher than 50 load.


Why just for the GPU?
Anyway my GPU max temp with 30c room temp is around 40c/42c


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## ThrashZone (Sep 2, 2021)

Hi,
Title is a little unclear the way it's typed need a couple more spaces
Air v water

On topic I prefer custom water cooling


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Air v water


The title says ( Airv.Water )
Needs just to be fixed.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

Riiight...  _*cracks knuckles*_ Let's get started.

Pros of air cooling:
+ Simpler and easier to build
+ More maintenance-free, as the fan(s) is the only moving part
+ Easier to control through BIOS with usually one (or two) PWM fan connected to the motherboard
+ Cheaper

Cons of air cooling:
- Decent performance usually comes with large size and weight that puts pressure on the CPU socket and/or PCI-e slot / graphics card PCB
- Dimensions must be considered before choosing a CPU cooler / graphics card / chassis
- Can be noisy when under-designed for the required cooling capacity
- Highly dependent on case airflow

Pros of AIO liquid cooling:
+ Nearly as maintenance-free as air, but with added cooling capacity
+ The volume of liquid inside the cooler has a much larger heat capacity than the metal in air coolers, leading to a much more relaxed temperature curve before reaching peak
+ The right AIO for your system gives you similar cooling with decreased heat (compared to air), or better cooling with similar noise
+ Much less weight on your motherboard around your CPU socket
+ Less heat inside your chassis when your radiator and fans are positioned as exhaust
+ More configurable through software (if that's your thing)

Cons of AIO liquid cooling:
- Usually more complicated wiring and software control (if it's not your thing)
- More expensive than air
- More moving parts means higher chance of failure
- No AIO lasts forever due to the permeation of the tubes - though they still last a long time, and some of them are serviceable
- Lower end AIOs don't perform better than average air coolers - 120 mm ones should be avoided unless for SFF builds with lower wattage CPUs (been there, done that, it's quite fun)
- Tube length and flexibility should be considered when choosing your AIO and/or chassis
- Older and lesser quality models are famous for noisy pumps/fans - can be avoided by reading reviews before buying

Pros of custom loop liquid cooling:
+ Unmatched cooling performance with the highest possibility for a silent system
+ Rigid tubing can serve as a supportive structure for your PC components (I think)
+ Highly configurable cooling suited for the entire system
+ With the right configuration, there's an even temperature in all parts of your chassis with no hot spots
+ Quite fun to build (if that's your thing)

Cons of custom loop liquid cooling:
- Quite annoying to build (if it's not your thing)
- Chance of leakage and/or component damage
- Requires experience to build and maintain
- Requires lots of maintenance with regular draining and cleaning
- A pain in the backside to upgrade the system
- Expensive

With all this in mind, my personal choice is always AIO for the cooling capacity, the silence, for being maintenance-free, and for peace of mind that my CPU temp won't affect internal chassis temp in any way.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Why just for the GPU?
> Anyway my GPU max temp with 30c room temp is around 40c/42c



Well it does benefit both. my temps


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Requires lots of maintenance with regular draining and cleaning


I drain mine once a year, been doing it for a decade and never faced any problems.



AusWolf said:


> Requires experience to build and maintain


When i built my first Custom loop i had 0 experience, i just knew the components i needed to built it and how they should be installed, so i built it and it worked.
I was so confident that i didn't do the leaking test. Tbh, I've never done it.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I drain mine once a year, been doing it for a decade and never faced any problems.
> 
> 
> When i built my first Custom loop i had 0 experience, i just knew the components i needed to built it and how they should be installed, so i built it and it worked.


That's cool. I'm still too scared to build one, even though I've been using AIOs for nearly 5 years.


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## qubit (Sep 2, 2021)

I always go with air cooling as I don't like the idea of any kind of liquid in my PC.

My Noctua NH-D14 does a fine job of cooling my CPU and being quite. Also, I always get big, three slot graphics cards with superb coolers that are very quiet and cool well, so that's not a problem either.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Not sure what's the point of such thread. We all have our preferences. That's it. There's really nothing else to discuss here. This thread can only end up in "my preference is better, so STFU" and I'm pretty sure that nobody wants that.


Sharing of thoughts and perspectives can and does grant people insight to ideas and possibilities not considered before.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 2, 2021)

Title fixed by both an air and water fan


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## Valantar (Sep 2, 2021)

Tatty_One said:


> Title fixed by both an air and water fan


Hey! The point was that "Air(v)water" kind of rhymes with "Skywalker" if you squint hard enough. Stop breaking my poorly executed wordplay! This is an abuse of power!


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

Well here's a pic of my loop. Delete if not in topic


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## ThrashZone (Sep 2, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Hey! The point was that "Air(v)water" kind of rhymes with "Skywalker" if you squint hard enough. Stop breaking my poorly executed wordplay! This is an abuse of power!


Hi,
I almost reported the thread to be moved to gaming lol
Thought where are the other 8 versions or episodes  

Everyone water cooling via aio or custom loop should have a backup air cooler because sooner or later pumps die.


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

qubit said:


> I don't like the idea of any kind of liquid in my PC.


Me neither, but i can't do without Watercooling 


Try to guess what might happen if a drop of water falls in one of those points?
the back of my GPU is completely naked







ThrashZone said:


> everyone water cooling via aio or custom loop should have a backup air cooler because sooner or later pumps die.


I have an AIO as backup.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 2, 2021)

Hi,
I don't use any rotary fittings at all best thing about soft tubing lessens leaks.


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## qubit (Sep 2, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Me neither, but i can't do without Watercooling
> 
> 
> *Try to guess what might happen if a drop of water falls in one of those points?*
> ...


Yes, quite. I'm sitting here in a state of trepidation for you.


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

qubit said:


> Yes, quite. I'm sitting here in a state of trepidation for you.


I have been very lucky, never a leak but i guess it's better if i buy a backplate for the GPU instead tempting the fate.


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## INSTG8R (Sep 2, 2021)

Been on water forever…can’t go back but these days I just do my CPU…That was an Asetek unit when they actually made stuff instead of patent trolling…









						TechPowerUp
					






					www.techpowerup.com


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Sharing of thoughts and perspectives can and does grant people insight to ideas and possibilities not considered before.


Except we don't really have anything new to say as topic is already well established. I personally only use 120mm and 92mm towers or downdrafts. That's all I need for making system quiet with chips that I use. I tend to err on lower wattage chips too, so modest cooling is more than enough. Never saw a point in liquid loop, as they don't provide enough benefit to outweigh pains. That's pretty much it. The only thing that I know and might be somewhat novel to some is that 92mm towers can be really great performers and be really close to 120mm single towers. Never had a need for giant coolers (except for Mugen 4 PCGH), so I don't have experience with them. My current Choten cools i5 10400F well. During BOINC loads it stays in 60s. With power limits lifted, in small FFT prime95 test, it stays in 70s at maybe 1000 rpm. During idle, it is in 400-500 range. I'm sure that no water cooling would beat it in terms of noise, since even a simple loop needs a pump and a fan, two sources of noise. And I never had something more high end and I don't want something very high end either. For my needs, air cooling is all I need. Passive cooling is fun, but it's impractical and complete crapshoot since nobody writes cooling capabilities or big towers (Except for DeepCool Lucifer cooler, but that was one off cooler) and CPU makers always cheat with TDP, so if it works with what I have, great, if it doesn't, I don't mind a very slow fan.

Graphics cards are another matter completely and most of their cooling sucks and you aren't supposed to mess with it. Aftermarket is almost dead. Accelero and Morpheus were the last hurrahs of custom graphics card cooling.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Except we don't really have anything new to say as topic is already well established.


Not for everyone. There are a great many people who do not know the information that is such common knowledge to us. So sharing it is of benefit to those who are not in the know. And because information often becomes dated over time, looking into current conversations that often focus on current technology and methodologies can be of great benefit. Even very experienced people, like myself, often learn something new, something they may not have crossed paths with. So to say we should not keep conversations like these alive and moving forward is just simple foolishness.


The red spirit said:


> Graphics cards are another matter completely


True.


The red spirit said:


> and most of their cooling sucks


Not true! Most OEM cooling solutions are very good in real world practice.


The red spirit said:


> Aftermarket is almost dead. Accelero and Morpheus were the last hurrahs of custom graphics card cooling.


Sad but true.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 2, 2021)

There's no war, just one crazy flailing about.


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not true! Most OEM cooling solutions are very good in real world practice.


I will change my mind, when I will see a graphics card with RPM range of 400-1200 rpm and when during load it only needs 1000 or less rpm. And that card must also have vRAM, VRM cooling too. And it doesn't cover more than two PCIe slots, that's important, because I actually use them. Until that happens, I'm not particularly impressed.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I'm sure that no water cooling would beat it in terms of noise, since even a simple loop needs a pump and a fan, two sources of noise. And I never had something more high end and I don't want something very high end either. For my needs, air cooling is all I need.


I wouldn't count on that.  Like I said in the "What's your latest tech purchase" thread, my H100i's pump is completely inaudible at its lowest speed which I use basically all the time with the USB disconnected (I'm not a fan of software control). The only things I hear in my system are the case fans that you can't escape anyway, regardless of what cooling method you prefer.

If you prefer air for your own reasons, or just don't need anything better than a 92 mm tower, that's completely fine.  All I'm saying is, an AIO pump isn't necessarily a source of noise, depending on your model choice and RPM setting.



The red spirit said:


> Graphics cards are another matter completely and most of their cooling sucks and you aren't supposed to mess with it. Aftermarket is almost dead. Accelero and Morpheus were the last hurrahs of custom graphics card cooling.


If you're talking about the most basic ones like the ASUS Dual, MSI Ventus and stuff, then I guess you're right. Other than that, I think graphics card makers are putting a lot more effort into their cooling designs than they did 10-15 years ago, that's why we don't need aftermarket solutions anymore. Heck, even my extremely basic dual fan EVGA 2070 manages around 72 C at stock settings. If you buy an ASUS TUF or Strix, EVGA FTW3, MSI Gaming X, or Sapphire Nitro card, you're basically good to go. The other thing is real-time GPU clock adjustment from both AMD and nvidia, which basically didn't exist back in the heydays of aftermarket cooling.



The red spirit said:


> I will change my mind, when I will see a graphics card with RPM range of 400-1200 rpm and when during load it only needs 1000 or less rpm. And that card must also have vRAM, VRM cooling too. And it doesn't cover more than two PCIe slots, that's important, because I actually use them. Until that happens, I'm not particularly impressed.


RPM doesn't equal noise. My aforementioned EVGA card has its fans spinning around 2000 RPM under load, but it's not loud at all.  And again, this is quite a basic model from EVGA. I imagine their FTW3 model performs even better.


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## freeagent (Sep 2, 2021)

I prefer big air to AIO, and haven’t had the balls to try a custom single loop. I have a big CPU and can be fairly competitive in the summer against the “other” guys 

Winter is my time to shine lol..

Custom guys do a lot better all the time.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 2, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Winter is my time to shine lol..


Winter is coming...!!


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## phanbuey (Sep 2, 2021)

Pumps are very quiet in general - even most AIO can be turned down to basically silent with negligible performance loss.

But nothing really beats a tuned (undervolted / optimized) system with a gigantic air cooler for silence.  (Noctua, thermalright le grand macho etc.)  If I had to build a quiet workstation that would be my route.

That being said there isn't an air cooler on this planet that would keep my setup from throttling at 5.1Ghz, so water it is for me, and it's quiet to boot. 

I don't like watercooling on GPUs because it's a pain in the A$$ and voids warranty.  The state of GPUs these days the less you touch it the better.  Plus they all power throttle anyways (at least on nvidia side) so cooling gains mostly acoustic unless the cooler is awful.


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## freeagent (Sep 2, 2021)

FC140 is better than LGMRT and TS140P


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

@The red spirit 
Check what i am ordering/buying





I want a second pump to reinforce my loop


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I wouldn't count on that.  Like I said in the "What's your latest tech purchase" thread, my H100i's pump is completely inaudible at its lowest speed which I use basically all the time with the USB disconnected (I'm not a fan of software control). The only things I hear in my system are the case fans that you can't escape anyway, regardless of what cooling method you prefer.


You can, by having more slower fans. My case fans run at 800-1000 rpm fixed. That's audible, really quiet, but I would appreciate something quieter.




AusWolf said:


> If you prefer air for your own reasons, or just don't need anything better than a 92 mm tower, that's completely fine.  All I'm saying is, an AIO pump isn't necessarily a source of noise, depending on your model choice and RPM setting.


It is up to certain wattage. You have two sources of noise instead of one and air coolers, depending on their size can be very powerful. They basically match or beat AIOs for almost all uses, except for high end rigs. But then you reach very high end computers and AIO becomes really loud too, so you need big custom loop. So for most computers, air cooling will be decently more quiet if done right, meanwhile AIO done right just can't match that.





AusWolf said:


> If you're talking about the most basic ones like the ASUS Dual, MSI Ventus and stuff, then I guess you're right. Other than that, I think graphics card makers are putting a lot more effort into their cooling designs than they did 10-15 years ago, that's why we don't need aftermarket solutions anymore. Heck, even my extremely basic dual fan EVGA 2070 manages around 72 C at stock settings. If you buy an ASUS TUF or Strix, EVGA FTW3, MSI Gaming X, or Sapphire Nitro card, you're basically good to go. The other thing is real-time GPU clock adjustment from both AMD and nvidia, which basically didn't exist back in the heydays of aftermarket cooling.


In pre C19 times, price alone made or broke the card. People expect to pay close to announced price for their card, particularly at cards where minor price variations matter. That's 200 EUR or less market. Where 30 EUR buys you a better GPU or maybe more memory or maybe faster memory. And those cards still get hot and loud. You can only justify premium coolers, if you buy whatever people call mid-range, that's 300-400 EUR tier. And you have a full freedom of choice in anything more expensive. If you decide to buy RX 580 at close to MSRP, then you can end up with PowerColor Red Dragon V2 model, which gets to nearly 80C and at whopping 3000 rpm. And yet the card physically looks very similar to other brands, so you really can't predict what you will get. Cheaper cards are also often are ignored by reviewers, despite being overwhelmingly popular. And also as far as I remember, Asus Dual are their mid range cards, low end poop is their Phoenix, Turbo lines. And despite TUF generally being premium brand, I saw some 1660s with sunflower cooler and two 80mm fans on top. That's even more garbage than low end models. At certain budgets models like Gaming X, FTW3, Strix, Nitro make no sense to buy. 1660 wouldn't sell that way, since better cooler costs the same as upgrade to 1660 Ti. More fps or better cooler? Most people more fps. OEMs also like to inflate prices of those premium cards for ne good reason too. Asus and MSI were notorious for that, charging a way more than others, despite much cheaper Gigas beating them.





AusWolf said:


> RPM doesn't equal noise. My aforementioned EVGA card has its fans spinning around 2000 RPM under load, but it's not loud at all.  And again, this is quite a basic model from EVGA. I imagine their FTW3 model performs even better.


It more or less does, if it doesn't, then you likely have less airflow. I have made a big excel sheet of airflow and noise and most fans are nearly identical. Sure at different rpms, but not by much. That's often +-200 rpm and in unusual cases 300-400+- rpm. RPM still pretty much equals to airflow, unless you use some really unusual blades and more or less end up with fan that doesn't function like fan.



FireFox said:


> @The red spirit
> Check what i am ordering/buying
> 
> View attachment 215256
> ...


lol how much do they charge for that?


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

This is what I'm using


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> lol how much do they charge for that?


€145 for both, they used to sell it as pump/reservoir combo but i don't find it anymore.

I own one already


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## Vayra86 (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Riiight...  _*cracks knuckles*_ Let's get started.
> 
> Pros of air cooling:
> + Simpler and easier to build
> ...



I agree on this. /thread.


Do carry on 
On a more personal note... I'll always be partial to air simply because I'm a lazy ...... and I like my PC care free and low maintenance. I also like it to be as silent as possible, and I've found water vs air don't really make a difference in that regard. So... air it is. Simple, cheap, effective, and you keep your warranty to boot.

Matter of fact... I might actually clean this GTX 1080 for the first time by now seeing as I've already lost a good 100mhz due to temps. Yeah. Now you try running that loop for 3,5 years non stop without looking at it 

AIO's I would never touch. Limited lifespan, and too many variables you can't control properly, with a super minor advantage over air, in the best case, and then the price being 3-6x higher than comparable air cooling. Yikes.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 2, 2021)

Hi, sorry to be the sour lemon, but if anybody thinks they can run AIO's at the same temperature as air coolers, you will be sorely disappointed. The lifetime is just not there when AIO's are run at high heat. This creates a conundrum whether they should be operated at low temperature delta with performance to spare, or high temperature delta at reduced lifetime due to biocide/rust protection fouling which leads to flow restriction and untimely failure.

Radiators are more restrictive than fin arrays eventhough water has a higher heat capacity and that can somewhat postpone the advised operating temperature issue. If you want to achieve full performance of your air cooler - get a flow duct and make an even comparison between them since all water coolers have directed air flow and is unfair, although convenient.

One advantage AIO's have is vented exhaust whereas air coolers don't come with an outlet duct and that leads to intake air temperature fouling by exhaust.


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

FireFox said:


> €145 for both, they used to sell it as pump/reservoir combo but i don't find it anymore.


As suspected, they cost too much. I remember, that when I had an aquarium, I had to buy water filter, it's water pump with sponge. I paid 20 EUR, maybe less and it was good to move water in 12 liter aquarium through that sponge. If that aquarium pump can move 12 liters just fine, it should be enough for water cooler too. Paying more than 40 EUR for that is daylight robbery. For that much money, I can buy 3 Scythe Mugen 4s or i5 10400F or 4TB HDD or E-ATX tower case or enough Mountain Dew to puke rainbow for one month straight or 72 tickets to pretty much any museum in my city.  For that same money, you can buy a big external JBL water filter, which moves 1400 liters per hour. And you don't need reservoir, if you take out sponge, you have over 20 liters of capacity. And instead Alpha charges you same money for that tiny winy lil pump. That looks like a massive rip-off to me. And with that JBL filter, you also get some tubes and other things to set it up.


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## skizzo (Sep 2, 2021)

A couple cons I've experienced....

The draining part is more difficult, or I should say, annoying, than filling in my opinion. Even though I have a logical point for the drain in the loop (the bottom most point) there are several areas where the liquid cannot drain without tilting the case all over like one of those kiddie games with marbles in them you tilt around to try and get them into their holes (had to look it up lol....its called "Labyrinth"). I find that to be one of the most annoying parts of maintenance. Otherwise I've been changing the liquid once a year or less.

One other con that someone else has likely experienced here! SPACE CONSTRAINTS! Really bad when using hard tubes because you cannot easily move shit outta the way. I dropped the little screw for one of my NVMe slots heatsinks BEHIND my GPU which is orientated vertically in the case. If I remember right I could see it, but couldn't reach it and get it out. I had to drain the loop and take out the GPU just to get that little prick! Nothing more like a gut punch when you're about to put the last thing in my system, the NVMe disk, I think I removed it, along with other disks, to do a fresh Windows install (I always remove everything but the disk I want to install to, just in case) to end up making a mistake like that which means great now I gotta spend another hour draining it disconnecting, to pick up a screw and then reconnect and refill. *I've since invested in magnetized tools !!!  *


Pros, my system is silent practically. Noise started to really distract me from enjoyment in recent years and wanted something better, quieter. I can leave my fans in the 700 RPM range all the time for intake and I go a little less on the exhaust, like upper 500s and 600 RPM range. Last time I was gaming on a PC was the mid/late 90s and particularly the Windows 98 era....GPUs didn't need to have 3 fans on them at 2700 RPM lol. Case fans took care of the passive cooling and I don't remember hearing them as a kid. Fast forward to 2018 or so whenever I got a RX 580 to abandon playing an ageing and loud Xbox 360 I go...wtf this GPU is just as loud if not louder than the Xbox 360, even with aggressive underclock + undervolt. I became obsessed with wanting a quiet system and eventually started researching this seemingly weird practice of water cooling. My pump I think I have set to about 1400 or so RPMs, out of like 4700 RPMs for topping it out. I think it is more noticeable to hear it only when it changes speeds, and I keep it static, rather when it is full blast. I can hear a snail fart in my computer room it's that quiet

It's deff a hobby. The initial cost is a good estimate of 1/3 of your systems cost. But it is an investment. A pump, fittings, radiators, fans, tubes, other related accessories are not a one time use item. You will be able to continue using them as you upgrade individual components or build whole new systems. The actual water blocks depend if they will fit another component, typically no for GPUs, and it's plausible for a CPU but the blocks are one thing you likely cannot retain from upgrade to upgrade or to a new system

OCing is at it's best with water cooling I think. Now I'd say the highs are a marginal improvement at best in real world applications, but reducing dips and give more stable boost clocks allow for more consistent performance rather than it pinging up and down.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 2, 2021)

Too lazy to take a current pic, here's the loop finishing bleeding.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> You can, by having more slower fans. My case fans run at 800-1000 rpm fixed. That's audible, really quiet, but I would appreciate something quieter.


Same here. Fixed 800 rpm case fans (including the ones on the radiator), whisper quiet system. They're still loud enough to overpower any noise from the pump.

I'm dying for two things when it comes to computers: small form factor, and silence. If running an AIO was loud, I wouldn't be doing it, believe me. 



The red spirit said:


> It is up to certain wattage. You have two sources of noise instead of one and air coolers, depending on their size can be very powerful. They basically match or beat AIOs for almost all uses, except for high end rigs. But then you reach very high end computers and AIO becomes really loud too, so you need big custom loop. So for most computers, air cooling will be decently more quiet if done right, meanwhile AIO done right just can't match that.


Like I said, all I hear coming from my computer at idle is my 4 case fans humming away at a lazy 800 rpm (the pump is dead silent). How does this not match the noise of air cooling?



The red spirit said:


> In pre C19 times, price alone made or broke the card. People expect to pay close to announced price for their card, particularly at cards where minor price variations matter. That's 200 EUR or less market. Where 30 EUR buys you a better GPU or maybe more memory or maybe faster memory. And those cards still get hot and loud. You can only justify premium coolers, if you buy whatever people call mid-range, that's 300-400 EUR tier. And you have a full freedom of choice in anything more expensive. If you decide to buy RX 580 at close to MSRP, then you can end up with PowerColor Red Dragon V2 model, which gets to nearly 80C and at whopping 3000 rpm. And yet the card physically looks very similar to other brands, so you really can't predict what you will get. Cheaper cards are also often are ignored by reviewers, despite being overwhelmingly popular. And also as far as I remember, Asus Dual are their mid range cards, low end poop is their Phoenix, Turbo lines. And despite TUF generally being premium brand, I saw some 1660s with sunflower cooler and two 80mm fans on top. That's even more garbage than low end models. At certain budgets models like Gaming X, FTW3, Strix, Nitro make no sense to buy. 1660 wouldn't sell that way, since better cooler costs the same as upgrade to 1660 Ti. More fps or better cooler? Most people more fps. OEMs also like to inflate prices of those premium cards for ne good reason too. Asus and MSI were notorious for that, charging a way more than others, despite much cheaper Gigas beating them.


Let's just agree that there's no substitute for reading reviews to form an educated decision about any particular item before buying.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Not sure what's the point of such thread. We all have our preferences. That's it. There's really nothing else to discuss here. This thread can only end up in "my preference is better, so STFU" and I'm pretty sure that nobody wants that.


Well, You are involved.

Op neither, they're both balls compared to using a polar bears balls to cool your non PC.

As for me air ,water who cares ,I have water on the 24/7 (100%) rig but not on others.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> AIO's I would never touch. Limited lifespan, and too many variables you can't control properly, with a super minor advantage over air, in the best case, and then the price being 3-6x higher than comparable air cooling. Yikes.


AIOs are for people like me - who want the advantages of water, but are too lazy to build a custom loop.  Their maintenance cycle / failure rate isn't as bad as advocates of air tend to believe, imo. There's a reason why some of them come with 5 or so years of warranty.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

My fans on rads are at about 700rpm idle, set to ramp up with temp though. Temps don't go high enough for them to go high enough to be noisy though. Also. Could i remove the two front fans? On the pic, air goes in through the thin radiator, then out through the thick one. No rear fan as it would not fit. I don't know if the front fans are doing anything as the air is going out through the thick rans fans.


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## FireFox (Sep 2, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Well it does benefit both. my temps
> View attachment 215239


You have a fan running at 3500Rpm?


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Like I said, all I hear coming from my computer at idle is my 4 case fans humming away at a lazy 800 rpm (the pump is dead silent). How does this not match the noise of air cooling?


By having two noise sources? Let's say pump is working at 600 rpm and fan is at 800 rpm. Fan has an obvious noise, but pump's noise doesn't disappear either. I don't know how dBs add up, but noise indeed should add up. Unless you are really lucky and you match frequencies of sound right, then you can potentially achieve no perceptible noise state, but that's very unlikely.



AusWolf said:


> Let's just agree that there's no substitute for reading reviews to form an educated decision about any particular item before buying.


I don't disagree with that, but reviews for cheap products are scarce. It's crazy how hard it is to find a review of say Pentium G6400 or Celeron G5900, compared to i9. It's also hard to find thermal tests done on cheap cards like 1650 from say Asus Phoenix. And yet pretty much every RTX 3070 and up are tested in depth. Same with motherboards and SSDs. If you want to build a cheap machine, then finding reviews for components is next to impossible. Even worse if you want to learn something about regional brands like Alpenfohn, SilentiumPC or Chieftec.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> My fans on rads are at about 700rpm idle, set to ramp up with temp though. Temps don't go high enough for them to go high enough to be noisy though. Also. Could i remove the two front fans? On the pic, air goes in through the thin radiator, then out through the thick one. No rear fan as it would not fit. I don't know if the front fans are doing anything as the air is going out through the thick rans fans.
> View attachment 215271


Interesting. Why the thick rad? Wouldn't a thin one with fans be better?



The red spirit said:


> By having two noise sources? Let's say pump is working at 600 rpm and fan is at 800 rpm. Fan has an obvious noise, but pump's noise doesn't disappear either. I don't know how dBs add up, but noise indeed should add up. Unless you are really lucky and you match frequencies of sound right, then you can potentially achieve no perceptible noise state, but that's very unlikely.


I don't know physics enough to know how dBs add up. All I know is that I can't hear my AIO pump on its lowest rpm setting, because my silent case fans make more noise. What more do I need? You can keep telling me all day how noisy AIO pumps _should_ be, I will still rather believe my own ears.



The red spirit said:


> I don't disagree with that, but reviews for cheap products are scarce. It's crazy how hard it is to find a review of say Pentium G6400 or Celeron G5900, compared to i9. It's also hard to find thermal tests done on cheap cards like 1650 from say Asus Phoenix. And yet pretty much every RTX 3070 and up are tested in depth. Same with motherboards and SSDs. If you want to build a cheap machine, then finding reviews for components is next to impossible. Even worse if you want to learn something about regional brands like Alpenfohn, SilentiumPC or Chieftec.


Well, you can't expect top notch quality if you're buying the cheapest of the cheapest, can you?  As for Pentiums and Celerons, if you're looking at such CPUs, I'm guessing that you either don't have money for more, or you just need a basic CPU for basic tasks. Pentiums and Celerons are exactly that. That's all the review you need.


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Well, you can't expect top notch quality if you're buying the cheapest of the cheapest, can you?


Well you can. I was looking at some Chieftec power supplies years ago and they seem to be quite a bit cheaper due to being a local brand and their stuff is seemingly similar to more expensive brands. It's not the cheapest stuff, but for quality that you get it very well could be.

I have also found some FSP power supplies and it turns out that they are a major OEM of PSUs and most of their units are very decent. And there are many brands that most people haven't heard of, mostly due to their lack of advertising, sponsoring and etc or some are just simply too local to be known well. This is where you can get a great deal, if you are smart or you know how to find some less well known information. 



AusWolf said:


> As for Pentiums and Celerons, if you're looking at such CPUs, I'm guessing that you either don't have money for more, or you just need a basic CPU for basic tasks. Pentiums and Celerons are exactly that. That's all the review you need.


Perhaps, but I'm still curious how well they fare or what their power use is. And nowadays, Pentium G6400 is actually not too bad CPU even for gaming. By that I mean that most games are playable on it. It makes sense to buy Pentium, if you play older titles and expect to pair it with RX 560 level card. 

Anyway, my comment isn't about Pentiums and Celerons, but merely about cheap product reviews. When I bought my current motherboard, I also couldn't find any reviews and it wasn't cheap board, it's a lower mid tier B460 board. For few months it was sold for really low price (just like many Gigabyte products in my country for some reason) and I bought it. Turns out that it's good for i5 non k. And all I paid for it was 86 EUR (78 UK pounds). Similar boards from other brands sold for 20-40 EUR more, so I managed to save some cash by taking a small risk.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Interesting. Why the thick rad? Wouldn't a thin one with fans be better?



The thick rad has fans, 2x140 on thick, 2x120 on thin. so could i remove front fans?


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## mtcn77 (Sep 2, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> so could i remove front fans?


Well, which way is front when the case is flowing rear to front? Don't want to stick a finger in the wrong end.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Well, which way is front when the case is flowing rear to front? Don't want to stick a finger in the wrong end.



pic is looking down, front is marked, left is thin rad, thick is right.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 2, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> pic is looking down, front is marked, left is thin rad, thick is right.


But your intake is rear, not the usual front.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 2, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> But your intake is rear, not the usual front.



Intake is 240 rad left side, out is 280 rad right side, front is 2x140. i have rotated the pic to better illustrate this.


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Well you can. I was looking at some Chieftec power supplies years ago and they seem to be quite a bit cheaper due to being a local brand and their stuff is seemingly similar to more expensive brands. It's not the cheapest stuff, but for quality that you get it very well could be.
> 
> I have also found some FSP power supplies and it turns out that they are a major OEM of PSUs and most of their units are very decent. And there are many brands that most people haven't heard of, mostly due to their lack of advertising, sponsoring and etc or some are just simply too local to be known well. This is where you can get a great deal, if you are smart or you know how to find some less well known information.


Chieftec and FSP used to be major players on the PSU market. I had an FSP about 10 years ago. I didn't know they still made units with their own brand name.

Anyway, what I said is you can't *expect* top quality with cheap products. You may get something acceptable, or you may not.



The red spirit said:


> Perhaps, but I'm still curious how well they fare or what their power use is. And nowadays, Pentium G6400 is actually not too bad CPU even for gaming. By that I mean that most games are playable on it. It makes sense to buy Pentium, if you play older titles and expect to pair it with RX 560 level card.
> 
> Anyway, my comment isn't about Pentiums and Celerons, but merely about cheap product reviews. When I bought my current motherboard, I also couldn't find any reviews and it wasn't cheap board, it's a lower mid tier B460 board. For few months it was sold for really low price (just like many Gigabyte products in my country for some reason) and I bought it. Turns out that it's good for i5 non k. And all I paid for it was 86 EUR (78 UK pounds). Similar boards from other brands sold for 20-40 EUR more, so I managed to save some cash by taking a small risk.


Gaming is not what Celerons are made for, and most people know that. Not many people would be interested in such a review. There are youtube channels like RandomGamingHD that deal with such things, though I think it's more of a niche, techy thing than serious reviews for serious gaming purposes. I also like getting the most out of old or low-end hardware, but for my main rig, I prefer not to cut on expenses vs quality.

With that said, I found exactly no review of my Core i7-11700 (non-K) before I bought it, though things like these are easily extrapolated from reviews of surrounding products, like the 11700*K*.



Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> The thick rad has fans, 2x140 on thick, 2x120 on thin. so could i remove front fans?


Ah I see!  If your temps and noise are ok, I'd leave things as they are. I usually prefer rads as exhaust, but if you did that with your system, you'd have some awful low pressure inside your chassis, I guess.


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## skizzo (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Interesting. Why the thick rad? Wouldn't a thin one with fans be better?
> 
> 
> I don't know physics enough to know how dBs add up. All I know is that I can't hear my AIO pump on its lowest rpm setting, because my silent case fans make more noise. What more do I need? You can keep telling me all day how noisy AIO pumps _should_ be, I will still rather believe my own ears.
> ...



In quick layman terms about audio adding up, its kinda like frequencies added up. For more details, imagine sound source A has 100Hz at 10dB and sound source B has 1KHz, also at 10dB. You don't necessarily add up to now having 20dB of noise. You have 10dB of low end noise at 100Hz and 10dB of mid range noise at 1KHz. But usually sound doesn't have just one exact pitch/frequency going so what happens is the frequencies that overlap from one sound sorce to the other create a hump if you were to look at it with a frequency analyzer graph. For example, maybe a PC has 10 fans in it and they are quiet themselves, but if they all run at same speed and have the same exact EQ curve, those frequencies stack on top of each other and that is where the perceived volume increase comes from. If they all have different EQ curves things would fit better, less stacking, therefore less perceived amplitude/volume/dB level. This comes from working in recording studios recording bands. When you make mixes generally you use EQ to "carve out" space in the EQ curve for say a kick drum to fit in the space the bass guitar is also occupying. If we didn't do this instruments would mask one another, you could hear the kick drum fine if the drums are playing by themselves, but when the bass guitar plays at the same time it would sound like the kick drum is "buried in the mix". It why modern recordings sound so crisp and clean compared to stuff from decades ago.


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## The red spirit (Sep 2, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Cheftec and FSP used to be major players on the PSU market. I had an FSP about 10 years ago. I didn't know they still made units with their own brand name.


They exist, I have one unit and until now it served me for 7 years well. I just replaced it with another PSU that I had, which happens to be Chieftec A-90. Yes, they are still alive and making new PSUs. You might not have recognized FSP, because their main brand name is Fortron. FSP is abbreviation of Fortron/Source corp. or Fortron/Sparkle corp. FSP is still a major actual PSU maker, they supply PSUs to maybe 20% of PC OEMs and makes PSUs for brands like Antec, SilverStone, OCZ (now dead), Thermaltake, Zalman and some other lesser names. Since they mostly don't brand their stuff to be sold directly, they keep low profile, but they still exist and still make decent PSUs. I remember than some Fortron units were in random Dells, HPs. They seemingly continue to operate without problems, but nobody talks about them. 

As for Chieftec, I know that they were big players in early 2000s, their Dragon case and various power supplies were really popular, but ever since then they sort of faded out. They never truly died, but again they have near zero publicity. 




AusWolf said:


> Anyway, what I said is you can't *expect* top quality with cheap products. You may get something acceptable, or you may not.


True, but you can get similar qualities for less. 




AusWolf said:


> Gaming is not what Celerons are made for, and most people know that. Not many people would be interested in such a review. There are youtube channels like RandomGamingHD that deal with such things, though I think it's more of a niche, techy thing than serious reviews for serious gaming purposes. I also like getting the most out of old or low-end hardware, but for my main rig, I prefer not to cut on expenses vs quality.


I understand that, but I said that Pentium was actually surprisingly good. It's not perfect, but for some specific needs, it's can be something really decent.




AusWolf said:


> With that said, I found exactly no review of my Core i7-11700 (non-K) before I bought it, though things like these are easily extrapolated from reviews of surrounding products, like the 11700*K*.


Some things sure, but some really specific things like maximum all core boost frequency isn't stated in Intel spec sheet and you really need a review to know that. My i5 is rated for 4.3Ghz maximum boost, but on all cores it can only do 4GHz and that's without AVX. With AVX, it is limited to 3.1Ghz, I think.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 2, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Intake is 240 rad left side, out is 280 rad right side, front is 2x140. i have rotated the pic to better illustrate this.
> View attachment 215277


I might be a bit too unsettled by this suggestion, why do you want to kill both radiators by exerting undue heat stress? I'm sure you know by now, intake is the best fan spot and cooler the better for radiator fluid antirust protection?


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## AusWolf (Sep 2, 2021)

skizzo said:


> In quick layman terms about audio adding up, its kinda like frequencies added up. For more details, imagine sound source A has 100Hz at 10dB and sound source B has 1KHz, also at 10dB. You don't necessarily add up to now having 20dB of noise. You have 10dB of low end noise at 100Hz and 10dB of mid range noise at 1KHz. But usually sound doesn't have just one exact pitch/frequency going so what happens is the frequencies that overlap from one sound sorce to the other create a hump if you were to look at it with a frequency analyzer graph. For example, maybe a PC has 10 fans in it and they are quiet themselves, but if they all run at same speed and have the same exact EQ curve, those frequencies stack on top of each other and that is where the perceived volume increase comes from. If they all have different EQ curves things would fit better, less stacking, therefore less perceived amplitude/volume/dB level. This comes from working in recording studios recording bands. When you make mixes generally you use EQ to "carve out" space in the EQ curve for say a kick drum to fit in the space the bass guitar is also occupying. If we didn't do this instruments would mask one another, you could hear the kick drum fine if the drums are playing by themselves, but when the bass guitar plays at the same time it would sound like the kick drum is "buried in the mix". It why modern recordings sound so crisp and clean compared to stuff from decades ago.


Thanks for this, it's really interesting and informative. 

As for the topic at hand, whatever noise my AIO pump makes at its lowest speed setting is so low in volume that it doesn't make any perceptible difference over my case fans - this is what matters when we talk about silence, I guess.



The red spirit said:


> Some things sure, but some really specific things like maximum all core boost frequency isn't stated in Intel spec sheet and you really need a review to know that. My i5 is rated for 4.3Ghz maximum boost, but on all cores it can only do 4GHz and that's without AVX. With AVX, it is limited to 3.1Ghz, I think.


If you have an Android phone, I recommend an app called CPU-L. It's a database of essentially all Intel and AMD CPUs ever released. It also lists things like Intel spec max frequencies. My 11700 for example, is rated for 4.4 GHz all-core, which I think is a good trade-off for around £60 less compared to the 4.6 GHz of the 11700K.


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## freeagent (Sep 2, 2021)

If you have a new AIO, and a CPU that puts out under 150w or so, and have a nice controlled ambient, you should get a few years out of it. If you are pushing 250w or more constantly in uncontrolled ambients chances are you are going to be looking for a replacement within a year or two. They work great when things are good.. lose a third of your coolant to permeation and you are hooped.. unless you can top it up.

X5690 @ 4400 1.4v and higher is a force to be reckoned with.. might not be strong by today’s standards but but it is a fucking thermal beast. Mine was an E.S. but it scaled right to 1.6v. My 5900X cannot pull the same power the e.s. could.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 3, 2021)

freeagent said:


> If you are pushing 250w or more constantly in uncontrolled ambients chances are you are going to be looking for a replacement within a year or two.


Couldn't agree more. If you are going to put it in any serious workload, just dump the plastic aio and get a solid metal construction air cooler, or a multiphase cooler - but they are few and far between and also pricing restricted. Nothing means business like a solid hunk of metal attached to the pc board.


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## The red spirit (Sep 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> If you have an Android phone, I recommend an app called CPU-L. It's a database of essentially all Intel and AMD CPUs ever released. It also lists things like Intel spec max frequencies. My 11700 for example, is rated for 4.4 GHz all-core, which I think is a good trade-off for around £60 less compared to the 4.6 GHz of the 11700K.


I just installed that app and it shows me that your all core speed should be 4.6GHz, not 4.4GHz.


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## Fangio1951 (Sep 3, 2021)

hi all,

I went to water cooling on my old i7-4700K then i7-4790K then i7-7700K.

The pic below is my current i7-7700K + Gigabyte Z270X Gaming 9 mobo in a Thermaltake P5 open case which I rotated 180 degrees so that all the water cooling was at the very bottom = if there was any leaks then the water would just drop on the floor.


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## freeagent (Sep 3, 2021)

Now that I am trying to tame 7nm with some additional voltage, I wouldn’t mind checking out some actual liquid cooling gear. I almost bought a new AIO like 20 times since November, I just can’t bring myself to do it lol. I get decent results with Thermalright coolers. Though my TS140P was a bit of a letdown.. not as good as my LGMRT, which is not as good as FC140, but all of them are still excellent


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## mtcn77 (Sep 3, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I get decent results with Thermalright coolers


You need to find out about the compatibility of their fan duct accessories. It really makes a huge difference when possible. One review was mentioning almost -10°C if not mistaken, nobody should run a fan without ensuring a direct access path to a straight line intake duct.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 3, 2021)

freeagent said:


> 1.4v and higher


I can't recommend that. Intels VID spec, 1.35v, is my recommendation for upper limit to avoid damage.


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## AusWolf (Sep 3, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I just installed that app and it shows me that your all core speed should be 4.6GHz, not 4.4GHz.


That's the 11700*K*. I have the non-K 11700.



freeagent said:


> If you have a new AIO, and a CPU that puts out under 150w or so, and have a nice controlled ambient, you should get a few years out of it. If you are pushing 250w or more constantly in uncontrolled ambients chances are you are going to be looking for a replacement within a year or two. They work great when things are good.. lose a third of your coolant to permeation and you are hooped.. unless you can top it up.
> 
> X5690 @ 4400 1.4v and higher is a force to be reckoned with.. might not be strong by today’s standards but but it is a fucking thermal beast. Mine was an E.S. but it scaled right to 1.6v. My 5900X cannot pull the same power the e.s. could.


My recipe is always the same: The largest AIO your case can fit + a non-K Intel CPU with unlocked power targets, or a Ryzen with no overclock, just PBO enabled - done.  This gives you optimal performance without putting too much heat stress on your AIO / whole system. Overclocking modern hardware isn't worth it anyway, as current CPUs and GPUs are pretty much at the top of their efficiency curve by factory default. You have to increase power consumption and heat by a significant margin for a couple hundred MHz that you don't even feel real-life.

Applying this recipe to my 11700, I get around 160-170 W power consumed in Cinebench R23 multi, which is something my H100i can easily cope with. Max temp is around 75-77 °C. It's interesting to note that the 5950X easily exceeded 80 °C with the same AIO under similar power consumption.


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## Vayra86 (Sep 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> AIOs are for people like me - who want the advantages of water, but are too lazy to build a custom loop.  Their maintenance cycle / failure rate isn't as bad as advocates of air tend to believe, imo. There's a reason why some of them come with 5 or so years of warranty.



Can get into that, a big part of my aversion is also the uncertainty; more moving parts is more chance of failure. Im a guy who loves mitigation I guess


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## AusWolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Vayra86 said:


> Can get into that, a big part of my aversion is also the uncertainty; more moving parts is more chance of failure. Im a guy who loves mitigation I guess


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## The red spirit (Sep 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> That's the 11700*K*. I have the non-K 11700.


It's definitely non K i7. Here's another source:


			https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i7/Intel-Core%20i7%20i7-10700.html
		


CPU World says 4.6GHz all core boost.


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## AusWolf (Sep 3, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> It's definitely non K i7. Here's another source:
> 
> 
> https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_i7/Intel-Core%20i7%20i7-10700.html
> ...


Ah, that's the 1*0*700, not my 1*1*700. 

Intel's naming at this point is confusing as hell. I wish they switched to something simpler.


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## The red spirit (Sep 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Ah, that's the 1*0*700, not my 1*1*700.
> 
> Intel's naming at this point is confusing as hell. I wish they switched to something simpler.


Intel's naming is fine. I did a mistake here, I really thought you had i7 10700, not i7 11700. AMD's naming is a lot worse.


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## AusWolf (Sep 3, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> Intel's naming is fine. I did a mistake here, I really thought you had i7 10700, not i7 11700. AMD's naming is a lot worse.


It was a lot worse with the 4000 series that's actually an extension of the 3000 series. Or with the 3000 series APUs that were actually 2000 series. I think they've come to their senses with the 5000 series.


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## freeagent (Sep 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I can't recommend that. Intels VID spec, 1.35v, is my recommendation for upper limit to avoid damage.


I went by 1.375 as stock voltage because that is what they rate the i7s at, and 1.55v was their rated max on 1366..



AusWolf said:


> I get around 160-170 W power consumed in Cinebench R23 multi


That’s not bad, let me know when you cross 300w 

My H100 did not appreciate that


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## AusWolf (Sep 3, 2021)

freeagent said:


> That’s not bad, let me know when you cross 300w


Never.  All I did was flick the ASUS Enhancement on which applies a 200 W PL1 instead of the stock 65, and a 250 W PL2 instead of 228. The only time I saw the chip get anywhere near the magical 200 W limit was in Prime95, but when the temperature crossed 90 °C, I shut it down.  

Everybody seems to be crying about 10 and 11th gen Intel and the "ridiculous power consumption and heat", but in real world scenarios, the 11700 is quite a modest chip. With around 30-is % usage in games and well above 4 GHz clocks, it barely even comes close to its factory TDP of 65 W. As for heat, my 5950X was a lot hotter when configured to consume the same power. 7 nm at TSMC might be the most advanced node there is, but it sure is a lot harder to cool than Intel's good old 14 nm. Now's the time to throw stones at me. 



freeagent said:


> My H100 did not appreciate that


My H100i did not appreciate the same power consumed by the 5950X, but it has no trouble keeping the 11700 cool - unless I fire up Prime95 of course, but who cares about that.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 3, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I went by 1.375 as stock voltage because that is what they rate the i7s at


Um, the Intel ARK data would like to have a word..








						Product Specifications
					

quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.




					ark.intel.com
				






While the i7 line and the Xeon line share some similarities, there are some very important differences that set them apart, which is why Intel defined a different voltage range. The tolerances are different. 
I'm not saying the voltage you've stated can not be done, just saying that it's taking a risk and not one people really need too for a daily driver.


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## freeagent (Sep 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Um, the Intel ARK data would like to have a word..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, they are server grade CPU's, tighter tolerances to run cooler, uses less power while running. I used that CPU for a decade, not a few months.. I didn't hurt it. I ran high voltage all the time because I could cool it. I did hurt PSU's with that system though. Its like comparing my X3360 to my Q9550. My X3360 ran cooler across all cores, and used less power.. and overclocked a little better. My X5690 ran cooler and scaled further than my 970 did. My 970 was better with memory because dividers are awesome.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 3, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Yes, they are server grade CPU's, tighter tolerances to run cooler, uses less power while running. I used that CPU for a decade, not a few months.. I didn't hurt it. I ran high voltage all the time because I could cool it. I did hurt PSU's with that system though. Its like comparing my X3360 to my Q9550. My X3360 ran cooler across all cores, and used less power.. and overclocked a little better. My X5690 ran cooler and scaled further than my 970 did. My 970 was better with memory because dividers are awesome.


Fair enough. I'm just advising caution, that's all. I'd hate to see someone kill a CPU with high voltage.


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## freeagent (Sep 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Fair enough. I'm just advising caution, that's all. I'd hate to see someone kill a CPU with high voltage.


Honestly man, the CPU will let you know. If it’s running hot, and you cannot control it, you shouldn’t be running it that fast. And at some point you will reboot and get hit with an OTP message. A way around that introduced on later generations was the AVX offset. So those guys can run at 5GHz but their cooling won’t let them do it with all loads..

And if it’s too much voltage, the motherboard will hit you with an OVP message


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## Tomgang (Sep 3, 2021)

We all have our own opinions and preferences to what we want. Before I build my new machine in June this year. I dit consider if I should go air as I have used for all my previous builds or aio/custom water loop.

I ended up with a dual system built all aircooled. While the little aircooler on the 5600X dosent leaves much headroom for overclock. However my 5950X with the noctua nh-d15 chromax.black on it. Managed a pretty decent all core oc of 4.65 ghz at 1.375 volts and that can hold the cpu at 85C (stock it sits at around 53C in Cinebench runs) in Cinebench r20/r23 runs. Better results than I had ever hoped for with aircooling and besides I am not comfortable with giving 5950X 1.375 volts for every day use any way. So I have rolled voltage back a bit. With air cooling on my 5950X, I managed to get cinebench scores right up in league of scores with custom water loops. So I am fairly pleased with my choice on going aircooling.

I will say a proper made custom water loop can look apselutely great in a pc. But it's more expensive, more things that can go wrong and frankly having water close to electricity is not a thing I am comfortable with.

For those interested. My system can be seen here and my cinebench runs as well.









						Tomgang´s project 2 systems in 1 case. All air cooled.
					

I was asked to make a build log for my new project 2 systems in 1 case. You can see all parts that goes in to this build in the link: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/the-show-off-your-tech-related-purchase-thread.225885/post-4537865  The first image of the mini-itx system up and...




					www.techpowerup.com


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 3, 2021)

A well setup loop, can be as reliable as an air cooler. It can probably be left alone for at least 6mths with no need to touch it.


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## FireFox (Sep 3, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> A well setup loop, can be as reliable as an air cooler. It can probably be left alone for at least 6mths with no need to touch it.


I don't touch my Custom Loop for at least a year or so because the coolant i use can be changed every 2 years.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 4, 2021)

freeagent said:


> And at some point you will reboot and get hit with an OTP message.





freeagent said:


> And if it’s too much voltage, the motherboard will hit you with an OVP message


These depend on the motherboard and not all do that. Still your point is understood.


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## freeagent (Sep 4, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> These depend on the motherboard and not all do that. Still your point is understood.


Ahh sorry, I am used to Asus..

I spent so much time using and abusing that rig.. if anything, its demise was specter/meltdown mitigation related. I literally watched them shave Gflops off of the performance of my 3770K as well.


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## AusWolf (Sep 4, 2021)

Tomgang said:


> We all have our own opinions and preferences to what we want. Before I build my new machine in June this year. I dit consider if I should go air as I have used for all my previous builds or aio/custom water loop.
> 
> I ended up with a dual system built all aircooled. While the little aircooler on the 5600X dosent leaves much headroom for overclock. However my 5950X with the noctua nh-d15 chromax.black on it. Managed a pretty decent all core oc of 4.65 ghz at 1.375 volts and that can hold the cpu at 85C (stock it sits at around 53C in Cinebench runs) in Cinebench r20/r23 runs. Better results than I had ever hoped for with aircooling and besides I am not comfortable with giving 5950X 1.375 volts for every day use any way. So I have rolled voltage back a bit. With air cooling on my 5950X, I managed to get cinebench scores right up in league of scores with custom water loops. So I am fairly pleased with my choice on going aircooling.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the build.  My 5950X also did around 3.8 GHz on stock in Cinebench, but it also got fairly warm with a Corsair H100i (240 mm AIO). When I turned the ASUS Optimiser on, I got stable clocks around 4.2-4.4 GHz, though with a power consumption of around 170-180 W, temperatures were totally uncontrollable. Hence the downgrade to the 11700.  It can easily maintain an all-core boost of 4.4 GHz with exactly the same power consumed and easily manageable temperatures.

Edit: At first I commented on the extremely low 3.2 GHz clock speed I saw, but I didn't see it happened in Prime95. Honestly, I would suggest everyone against using Prime95. The stress it puts on a CPU is just mad, and it's nothing like anything you do with it in real life. Sort of like running your car's engine at redline all the time. Doesn't make any sense.


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## Tomgang (Sep 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Congrats on the build.  My 5950X also did around 3.8 GHz on stock in Cinebench, but it also got fairly warm with a Corsair H100i (240 mm AIO). When I turned the ASUS Optimiser on, I got clocks around 4.2-4.4 GHz stable, though with a power consumption of around 170-180 W, temperatures were totally uncontrollable. Hence the downgrade to the 11700.  It can easily maintain an all-core boost of 4.4 GHz with exactly the same power consumed and easily manageable temperatures.
> 
> Edit: At first I commented on the extremely low 3.2 GHz clock speed I saw, but I didn't see it happened in Prime95. Honestly, I would suggest everyone against using Prime95. The stress it puts on a CPU is just mad, and it's nothing like anything you do with it in real life. Sort of like running your car's engine at redline all the time. Doesn't make any sense.


If you mean below baseclock on the first image before i put the hardware inside the case. I ran Prime95 on it´s hardest settings and most power hungry to. That means the cpu runs below baseclcok because it´s power limit. No limit by cooling. With cinebench R23 it stay at around 3,8 to 4 Ghz stock on all cores. stock my cpu sits a 53-55C so well below thermal throttle od 90C. First with an all core oc of 4,65 ghz manuel at 1,375 my cpu hits 85C and gets close to thermal trottle piont,

But the image you see with 5600X/5950X. They run below base clock is because of prime95 and power limits. Not by cooling or to high temps. The cooler on 5950X actually does a prety great job compared to even custom water loops. Look at cinibench runs in the tread and try compare them with other 5950X. Then you will my scores are in the good end.


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## AusWolf (Sep 4, 2021)

Tomgang said:


> If you mean below baseclock on the first image before i put the hardware inside the case. I ran Prime95 on it´s hardest settings and most power hungry to. That means the cpu runs below baseclcok because it´s power limit. No limit by cooling. With cinebench R23 it stay at around 3,8 to 4 Ghz stock on all cores. stock my cpu sits a 53-55C so well below thermal throttle od 90C. First with an all core oc of 4,65 ghz manuel at 1,375 my cpu hits 85C and gets close to thermal trottle piont,
> 
> But the image you see with 5600X/5950X. They run below base clock is because of prime95 and power limits. Not by cooling or to high temps. The cooler on 5950X actually does a prety great job compared to even custom water loops. Look at cinibench runs in the tread and try compare them with other 5950X. Then you will my scores are in the good end.


That's exactly what I mean.  In my opinion, Prime95 is a rubbish program to test any modern CPU. It pumps so much power into your CPU that it will never be able to achieve its practical clock speeds. With my 11700, it pumps well above 200 W into it for no good reason. That's the only situation I lose its 4.4 GHz all-core because the motherboard's over-current protection kicks in. It is also the only situation it comes close to thermal throttling with a 240 mm AIO. How useful is that, really?  No, I always test with Cinebench. It's a nice, evenly balanced all-core or single-core workload, kind of the same thing you can expect in real life.

As for the 5950X, your temps are really good! I was around the same level cooling it with the H100i, albeit with the lowest possible rpm settings on both the pump and fans, so the system was near silent.


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## Tomgang (Sep 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> That's exactly what I mean.  In my opinion, Prime95 is a rubbish program to test any modern CPU. It pumps so much power into your CPU that it will never be able to achieve its practical clock speeds. With my 11700, it pumps well above 200 W into it for no good reason. That's the only situation I lose its 4.4 GHz all-core because the motherboard's over-current protection kicks in. It is also the only situation it comes close to thermal throttling with a 240 mm AIO. How useful is that, really?  No, I always test with Cinebench. It's a nice, evenly balanced all-core or single-core workload, kind of the same thing you can expect in real life.
> 
> As for the 5950X, your temps are really good! I was around the same level cooling it with the H100i, albeit with the lowest possible rpm settings on both the pump and fans, so the system was near silent.


i have no complains about temp on 5950X. Actually i achieved better overclock than i had hoped for.


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## freeagent (Sep 4, 2021)

Me too, but with 5900X.. this thing rips. And its pretty easy to cool if you don't live in a sauna.


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## AusWolf (Sep 4, 2021)

Tomgang said:


> i have no complains about temp on 5950X. Actually i achieved better overclock than i had hoped for.


I didn't have complaints, either (on stock with PBO at least). The actual reason for my downgrade is that I wanted to go SFF in a slim case with only 8 cm fan mounts, so an AIO wasn't an option anymore, and neither was a tower cooler. I did try a R5 3600, but it ended in a disaster. I couldn't even cool it on stock with a be quiet! Shadow Rock LP. I was lucky that a friend of mine was looking for an upgrade, so I could ditch the 3600 basically straight away. Switching to 11th gen Intel was a bold move, but worth it. The Shadow Rock LP did a good job cooling it, and I even managed to do some PL1 tweaking up until about 100 W. My conclusion is that Ryzen is much more dependent on case airflow for some reason, and its heat transfer to the cooler is much worse than Intel's (probably due to the heat density of the 7 nm chiplets).

You can read all about this experience in my build log (link in my signature) if you're interested.


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## FireFox (Sep 13, 2021)

@Gruffalo.Soldier





I don't know which CPU you have.


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## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

Ok, let's fire up the war machine again! 

I had an idea of maximising case airflow for better GPU thermals in my Corsair 280X by swapping my 240 mm AIO to a 280 mm one, and installing bigger case fans if possible (I might be short on space with the bigger rad). I was browsing for a 280 unit that doesn't come with a hundred million cables like my Corsair H100i Platinum, and my eyes caught the be quiet! Silent Loop 2. Nice, simple unit, it comes with just one (ONE!) ARGB cable which is a huge plus for me - no USB bollocks and proprietary connectors and software. 

But... my eyes also caught the be quiet! Dark Rock TF2. I used to love top flow coolers in the early 2000s, and with no back exhaust on my case, I think it would make more sense than a tower. Normally, I wouldn't think about air cooling, but while I'm trying to sell my H100i, I've got my Shadow Rock LP installed. With the Intel stock power limits on the 11700, it's not even half as bad as I remembered. The only thing I still need is better case airflow. So...

Which one should I go for?

The Dark Rock TF2 with 4x 14 cm case fans, or
The Silent Loop 2 with 2x 14 cm case fans, one of which I may or may not be able to install depending on how long the new radiator is.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Ok, let's fire up the war machine again!
> 
> I had an idea of maximising case airflow for better GPU thermals in my Corsair 280X by swapping my 240 mm AIO to a 280 mm one, and installing bigger case fans if possible (I might be short on space with the bigger rad). I was browsing for a 280 unit that doesn't come with a hundred million cables like my Corsair H100i Platinum, and my eyes caught the be quiet! Silent Loop 2. Nice, simple unit, it comes with just one (ONE!) ARGB cable which is a huge plus for me - no USB bollocks and proprietary connectors and software.
> 
> ...


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## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

Valantar said:


>


If you tell me how to mount 2 coolers on 1 CPU, I'll buy both of them, I promise.


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## claes (Sep 19, 2021)

I’m still of the mind that you get a new case


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## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

claes said:


> I’m still of the mind that you get a new case


I see your point. The issue with that is that there's no case out there in such a compact size with similar functionality. I'm a small form factor freak just as much as a silence freak.  Full tower ATX has no appeal to me.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> If you tell me how to mount 2 coolers on 1 CPU, I'll buy both of them, I promise.


I was thinking more among the lines of "buy both, test them, return the one you like the least", but  ... I'm sure there's _some _way of using them both at once


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## Tatty_One (Sep 19, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I see your point. The issue with that is that there's no case out there in such a compact size with similar functionality. I'm a small form factor freak just as much as a silence freak.  Full tower ATX has no appeal to me.


I am a Phanteks fan, I had one of these matx cases last year until I upgraded my system and went ATX, I had the old model of this but it served me well.................

Phanteks Innovative Computer Hardware Design


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## mtcn77 (Sep 19, 2021)

Tatty_One said:


> I am a Phanteks fan, I had one of these matx cases last year until I upgraded my system and went ATX, I had the old model of this but it served me well.................
> 
> Phanteks Innovative Computer Hardware Design


Wish we had Phanteks over here. They have everything inhouse from fans to cases and they do it with stellar fashion. Been a fan of theirs since reading 120XP reviews.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 19, 2021)

Tatty_One said:


> I am a Phanteks fan, I had one of these matx cases last year until I upgraded my system and went ATX, I had the old model of this but it served me well.................
> 
> Phanteks Innovative Computer Hardware Design



That's a nice mATX case, I love Phanteks too.


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## AusWolf (Sep 19, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I was thinking more among the lines of "buy both, test them, return the one you like the least", but  ... I'm sure there's _some _way of using them both at once


Ah, that explains it!  That's an option too, I guess (albeit, a bit expensive one).

Edit: It's decided. Reason: link. For now, I'll just upgrade my case fans to quieter units, and keep the rest of the setup as it is until I get bored again and buy a bigger AIO. It's fun to unlock power limits on my 11700, and I can definitely see myself do that in the future, but with current games and my RTX 2070, I don't need to just yet.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Well here's a pic of my loop. Delete if not in topic
> View attachment 215247


You added a reservoir! Nice.
Seems that's an older picture and you have taken it out.. Why'd you take it out?


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## FireFox (Sep 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You added a reservoir! Nice.
> Seems that's an older picture and you have taken it out.. Why'd you take it out?


I was thinking the same


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## Space Lynx (Sep 20, 2021)

I mean, unless you have a lot of money, I don't see why anyone would get anything other than a Vetroo V5 CPU cooler for $25 shipped. It literally beats a Noctua D15 in temps if you set a slightly aggressive fan profile... but even then its not all that bad sound wise. also it comes with extra bracket if you have a spare fan to do push/pull with.  most people have an extra fan these days.

jayz2cents has it cooling a 5900x at like under 63 celsius... and that's stock, no fan curve...  for $25 its literally insane how good it is.  add in two fans in push/pull which is basically free to do, and add a slightly aggressive fan curve, and you are matching 360mm AIO $180 water coolers... again if you have a lot of money and want your build to look a certain way, by all means go all out, but I'm glad I spent the $25 on the V5. I might even talk my dad into upgrading his Ryzen gen 1 APU to a 5xxx series APU and replace stock cooler with the V5. would be a nice bump in performance for him, even though he really doesn't need it.

watch at 15 mins in:  its actually a lower temp than an AIO water cooler... $25...


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I mean, unless you have a lot of money, I don't see why anyone would get anything other than a Vetroo V5 CPU cooler for $25 shipped. It literally beats a Noctua D15 in temps if you set a slightly aggressive fan profile... but even then its not all that bad sound wise. also it comes with extra bracket if you have a spare fan to do push/pull with.  most people have an extra fan these days.
> 
> jayz2cents has it cooling a 5900x at like under 63 celsius... and that's stock, no fan curve...  for $25 its literally insane how good it is.  add in two fans in push/pull which is basically free to do, and add a slightly aggressive fan curve, and you are matching 360mm AIO $180 water coolers... again if you have a lot of money and want your build to look a certain way, by all means go all out, but I'm glad I spent the $25 on the V5. I might even talk my dad into upgrading his Ryzen gen 1 APU to a 5xxx series APU and replace stock cooler with the V5. would be a nice bump in performance for him, even though he really doesn't need it.
> 
> watch at 15 mins in:  its actually a lower temp than an AIO water cooler... $25...


Looks like a nice enough standard tower cooler, though given the methodology of that 'review' (a single comparison, no data logging, no real workload control, all very off-the-cuff) I'd need to see something a bit more thorough to believe those numbers. It's a bog-standard 5-heatpipe tower cooler after all - it'll perform roughly the same as similar designs, as it's not bringing anything new to the table. That doesn't make it bad by any means, and that price is definitely nice. But it doesn't make sense for it to outperform an AIO unless there was a bad mount for the AIO, it was running at a too-low pump speed, or something similar. Still, for a budget cooler it looks great!

That being said, my sentiment for a while has been that if I didn't get into water cooling a few years back mostly by chance - I came across a $30 EK waterblock for my Fury X, and wanted to get rid of its whiny AIO; things snowballed from there - I would likely be going all air today. I couldn't do that in the Meshlicious, but after the expense and hassle of water cooling, air cooling does look mighty attractive, and there are good SFF cases that can still fit good air coolers, if at a slightly bigger footprint. I would definitely be deshrouding any air-cooled GPU though, as those tiny, cheap fans inevitably suck. I'm very happy with my current setup, and I'm particularly satisfied with getting QDCs in there so that it's actually serviceable, and the combination of size, performance and noise is unbeatable. But with the right case I could get decently close with air for a fraction of the price. Water is still _the best_, but it's a lot of hassle and very expensive even if you go with "budget" parts.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You added a reservoir! Nice.
> Seems that's an older picture and you have taken it out.. Why'd you take it out?



Didn't need it. The pump/res is enough I think for my loop, Plus it makes the loop a bit cleaner.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 20, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Looks like a nice enough standard tower cooler, though given the methodology of that 'review' (a single comparison, no data logging, no real workload control, all very off-the-cuff) I'd need to see something a bit more thorough to believe those numbers. It's a bog-standard 5-heatpipe tower cooler after all - it'll perform roughly the same as similar designs, as it's not bringing anything new to the table. That doesn't make it bad by any means, and that price is definitely nice. But it doesn't make sense for it to outperform an AIO unless there was a bad mount for the AIO, it was running at a too-low pump speed, or something similar. Still, for a budget cooler it looks great!
> 
> That being said, my sentiment for a while has been that if I didn't get into water cooling a few years back mostly by chance - I came across a $30 EK waterblock for my Fury X, and wanted to get rid of its whiny AIO; things snowballed from there - I would likely be going all air today. I couldn't do that in the Meshlicious, but after the expense and hassle of water cooling, air cooling does look mighty attractive, and there are good SFF cases that can still fit good air coolers, if at a slightly bigger footprint. I would definitely be deshrouding any air-cooled GPU though, as those tiny, cheap fans inevitably suck. I'm very happy with my current setup, and I'm particularly satisfied with getting QDCs in there so that it's actually serviceable, and the combination of size, performance and noise is unbeatable. But with the right case I could get decently close with air for a fraction of the price. Water is still _the best_, but it's a lot of hassle and very expensive even if you go with "budget" parts.



I always thought I would try custom water cooling someday, but very glad I never did. Messy, maintenance. Air cooler maintenance takes about  5 mins, take the PC outside and blow air with MetroVac, or sometimes I will just take some paper towel damped, and rub off the dust on the fan blades and not even remove anything. Life is just easier that way. If you have the time and money though then yeah water cool to the moon.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Didn't need it. The pump/res is enough I think for my loop, Plus it makes the loop a bit cleaner.


That's what I was thinking, but it doesn't hurt to ask.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 20, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's what I was thinking, but it doesn't hurt to ask.


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## xtreemchaos (Sep 20, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Messy, maintenance.


only if you put sludge "sorry" colours in the loop ive run clear for over 2 years without cleaning, i mean when i first started watercooling thats all we had and motocross bike rads and fishtank pumps and home made blocks yes im that old   today its easy everythings one click away just add money.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 20, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> only if you put sludge "sorry" colours in the loop ive run clear for over 2 years without cleaning, i mean when i first started watercooling thats all we had and motocross bike rads and fishtank pumps and home made blocks yes im that old   today its easy everythings one click away just add money.



you just run distilled water with a pure silver little coil in it?  and temps are still good?


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> only if you put sludge "sorry" colours in the loop ive run clear for over 2 years without cleaning, i mean when i first started watercooling thats all we had and motocross bike rads and fishtank pumps and home made blocks yes im that old   today its easy everythings one click away just add money.


Yeah, I've never had issues with growth or corrosion. I only use clear premix coolant. Sure, distilled water and additives are cheaper, but ... 100 SEK every 1-2 years isn't a noticeable expense. Like you, I've run a loop entirely untouched for 2+ years, and for more than 4 without cleaning beyond tap water + vinegar flushing 1-2 times.

The annoying thing about water loop maintenance is when you need to upgrade or swap components and thus need to disassemble something. Now that I have QDCs I no longer dread this, but before? Yeah, it makes any 30-minute upgrade into a 2+ hour one. QDCs still don't alleviate everything - the removed part of the cooling still likely needs draining and re-filling - but it's _so_ much easier now.


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## xtreemchaos (Sep 20, 2021)

i havnt used anything but DW in my own riggs, now customers ill put what ever thay like because whats the point in trying to convince them not to, cus there rigg will be back within a year for me to clean out it keeps the pennys coming in ive one to clean out today.



Valantar said:


> Yeah, I've never had issues with growth or corrosion


i dont even use additives, if you get good DW there nothing in it to grow and lube water makes the best you can get bud.


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> i dont even use additives, if you get good DW there nothing in it to grow and lube water makes the best you can get bud.


As long as your parts or water get any exposure to air there will be spores in there, so ... meh. I guess you can avoid it to a certain extent, and it no doubt depends on your location/climate and other factors (loop temperature etc.). I choose premix for the convenience of knowing that I don't have to worry about this whatsoever. Safely disposing of it is a bit of a hassle, but worth the effort IMO.


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## xtreemchaos (Sep 20, 2021)

Valantar said:


> As long as your parts or water get any exposure to air there will be spores in there


try it , make sure you dont flush with tap water because thats where the green plant life comes from, i use triple distilled 2 times filtered Dw its the same stuff you top car batterys up with but not the stuff that has anti cake/fur in it.


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> try it , make sure you dont flush with tap water because thats where the green plant life comes from, i use triple distilled 2 times filtered Dw its the same stuff you top car batterys up with but not the stuff that has anti cake/fur in it.


If I had a car and could get something like that easily I might try, but I don't, so getting ahold of that water would be far more trouble than it's worth. The ~.5l/year of chemical waste is okay for me so far.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 20, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> try it , make sure you dont flush with tap water because thats where the green plant life comes from, i use triple distilled 2 times filtered Dw its the same stuff you top car batterys up with but not the stuff that has anti cake/fur in it.



I'm using de-ionised, DW is near impossible to get where i am


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## xtreemchaos (Sep 20, 2021)

well you could make you own all you need is a pressure cooker some copper coil pipe and something to put the copper coil in water to keep cool put water through it a few times and you would have the best distilled water you could get + you could also make a bit of moonshine great for cleaning paste off cpus   .


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I'm using de-ionised, DW is near impossible to get where i am


That with standard auto radiator fluid 20/80(fluid/water) makes a great mix for cooling. Provides good cooling and keeps the loop clean and free of any biological growth.


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## The red spirit (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> A well setup loop, can be as reliable as an air cooler. It can probably be left alone for at least 6mths with no need to touch it.


That's pretty nice, but pretty much any air cooler will do 13 years or more.



AusWolf said:


> That's exactly what I mean.  In my opinion, Prime95 is a rubbish program to test any modern CPU. It pumps so much power into your CPU that it will never be able to achieve its practical clock speeds. With my 11700, it pumps well above 200 W into it for no good reason. That's the only situation I lose its 4.4 GHz all-core because the motherboard's over-current protection kicks in. It is also the only situation it comes close to thermal throttling with a 240 mm AIO. How useful is that, really?


PrimeGrid is literally the same, but realistic load.


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## freeagent (Sep 20, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> It literally beats a Noctua D15 in temps if you set a slightly aggressive fan profile


That goes for many coolers. People think D15 is the biggest and baddest but the truth is there are plenty of coolers as good, or even better than D15. It’s just that you see people saying it all the time, even people who have never owned one say it, without actually knowing..


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## The red spirit (Sep 20, 2021)

freeagent said:


> That goes for many coolers. People think D15 is the biggest and baddest but the truth is there are plenty of coolers as good, or even better than D15. It’s just that you see people saying it all the time, even people who have never owned one say it, without actually knowing..


That ain't true. It's the biggest and baddest heatsink with typical Noctua fans. If you put fast fans, I doubt that there would be many alternatives.


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## freeagent (Sep 20, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> That ain't true. It's the biggest and baddest heatsink with typical Noctua fans. If you put fast fans, I doubt that there would be many alternatives.


I haven’t owned a D15 but I have owned a D14.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 20, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I haven’t owned a D15 but I have owned a D14.


Hi,
Nearly identical coolers had d14 to
D14 is a little shorter but still 6 pipe only the fans on the d15 make it better than the d14.


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## freeagent (Sep 20, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Nearly identical coolers had d14 to
> D14 is a little shorter but still 6 pipe only the fans on the d15 make it better than the d14.


That’s what I’ve heard! I did try some high speed fans on it but ended up using my ultra 120 extreme until I dipped my toes in the clc waters. Ran that sucker dry lol, or as close as I could..


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## FireFox (Sep 20, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> Messy, maintenance.


Once a year, or every 2 years, is it too much?



lynx29 said:


> Air cooler maintenance takes about 5 mins, take the PC outside and blow air with MetroVac, or sometimes I will just take some paper towel damped, and rub off the dust on the fan blades and not even remove anything. Life is just easier that way.


Too easy and kinda boring



Valantar said:


> The annoying thing about water loop maintenance is when you need to upgrade or swap components and thus need to disassemble something.


For me that's fun, i think that is the reason why i don't use QDCs, i enjoy disassembling the loop, it is part of the hobby



The red spirit said:


> pretty much any air cooler will do 13 years or more.


Meh


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2021)

FireFox said:


> For me that's fun, i think that is the reason why i don't use QDCs, i enjoy disassembling the loop, it is part of the hobby


Sounds like you've got plenty of free time and don't need the PC for anything important then


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 20, 2021)

A water loop is in effect one cooler albeit slight more complicated. Can a single air cooler cool my CPU and GPU far better than my "single" loop, no. Also no massive heavy weight hanging off my motherboard.

EDIT. I don't use QDC's, they are heavy, ugly and expensive. Easy enough to drain it, do what i need and refill.


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> A water loop is in effect one cooler albeit slight more complicated. Can a single air cooler cool my CPU and GPU far better than my "single" loop, no. Also no massive heavy weight hanging off my motherboard.
> 
> EDIT. I don't use QDC's, they are heavy, ugly and expensive. Easy enough to drain it, do what i need and refill.


Heh, my QDCs are matte black nylon, so they weigh about the same as an equivalent length of EK ZMT tubing, fit the look of my loop perfectly, aren't much wider than the tubing, and cost something like $15 apiece. That's not nothing, but half of what most QDCs cost, and negligible in light of the rest of the loop. Also, you're clearly not doing a reservoir-less SFF loop  Draining, re-filling and bleeding one of those gets to be a real hassle real quick.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> A water loop is in effect one cooler albeit slight more complicated. Can a single air cooler cool my CPU and GPU far better than my "single" loop, no. Also no massive heavy weight hanging off my motherboard.
> 
> EDIT. I don't use QDC's, they are heavy, ugly and expensive. Easy enough to drain it, do what i need and refill.


I think it is unfair to compare the two. Water has such a high specific heat improvement over regular heatpipes that it is almost like that of liquid metal's conduction over regular paste that sets them apart. It would be interesting if we compared water coolers with regular paste when in comparison to using liquid metal for air coolers, imo. We would at least be comparing water's specific heat with liquid metal's conduction improvement over normal paste which round up to the same ballpark(an order higher).


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 20, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I think it is unfair to compare the two. Water has such a high specific heat improvement over regular heatpipes that it is almost like that of liquid metal's conduction over regular paste that sets them apart. It would be interesting if we compared water coolers with regular paste when in comparison to using liquid metal for air coolers, imo. We would at least be comparing water's specific heat with liquid metal's conduction improvement over normal paste which round up to the same ballpark(an order higher).



Unfair, the thread is air v water


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## mtcn77 (Sep 20, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Unfair, the thread is air v water


What if I said we had to leave 1 slot open in a radiator and only use the other slots with the radiator on a water cooler. That is the same. If we want to make assumptions, we should not set a benchmark on our incompetence, imo. What you buy is what you get, and air coolers have a sizable advantage when it comes to radiator size. The only problem is the coldplate transfer being unoptimal which can be easily remedied if we used liquid metal.
I'm sure I don't have to reiterate on specific heat vs conductance limit.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 20, 2021)

I don’t need biocide for my heat sink 

Who cares if you have a kilo of aluminum hanging off your board.. it’s not going anywhere.

Watercooling is superior for sure, from a performance aspect. Now HSF vs AIO would be a closer comparison.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 20, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Watercooling is superior for sure, from a performance aspect.


That is a terrible generalization. It is just better at the coldplate which can be easily equalised by liquid metal.


freeagent said:


> Now HSF vs AIO would be a closer comparison.


Aren't we discussing the two? Custom cooling is not in the same budget.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 20, 2021)

I think to a fair degree, water cooling, especially custom is about 40% at least about looks, specially folks who do really pretty hardline loops. After my destruction of a gtx1080 and a z390 board, soft tube for me only now, even if it's not as purty


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## freeagent (Sep 20, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> That is a terrible generalization. It is just better at the coldplate which can be easily equalised by liquid metal.
> 
> Aren't we discussing the two? Custom cooling is not in the same budget.


Liquid metal has no place in my computer. I saw a liquid guy in here saying water was better. I disagree with it just being better at the plate.. the capacity is much better. Try running an all core load with a hot amd and then do it again with a loop. I can tell you which one is going to be better if things are done properly..


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## mtcn77 (Sep 20, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Liquid metal has no place in my computer. I saw a liquid guy in here saying water was better. I disagree with it just being better at the plate.. the capacity is much better. Try running an all core load with a hot amd and then do it again with a loop. I can tell you which one is going to be better if things are done properly..


You are complaining about heat soak and unguided venting, again not the same. If you want to reduce both, run a duct like thermalright does to your main exhaust vent.
Still, the issue comes down to unrelated stuff that eat at the performance due to intake exit flow mixing.



freeagent said:


> Try running an all core load with a hot amd and then do it again with a loop.


At least air doesn't spoil and fail in long term due to temps?

I think running any amount of serious load with water in the mix would be an amateur proposition.


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## Fangio1951 (Sep 21, 2021)

For what it's worth = My system uses a full customer loop + Grizzly liquid metal on the cpu = combination is = very low temps always !!!

And = my new upgrade shortly will be = i9-9900K delided with Grizzly liquid metal and new copper heat sink from UK Delid.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You are complaining about heat soak and unguided venting, again not the same. If you want to reduce both, run a duct like thermalright does to your main exhaust vent.
> Still, the issue comes down to unrelated stuff that eat at the performance due to intake exit flow mixing.
> 
> 
> ...


Dude.. I am running like 400cfm through my case when my fans spool up, I do not need a duct..

I also have a Thermalright cooler.. several actually..


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Dude.. I am running like 400cfm through my case when my fans spool up, I do not need a duct..
> 
> I also have a Thermalright cooler.. several actually..


400 cfm is like 4 fans... Combined with intake spoilage due to flow mixing, I think your problems are not addressed.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> 400 cfm is like 4 fans... Combined with intake spoilage due to flow mixing, I think your problems are not addressed.


I don't have any problems?

Its 3 fans.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I don't have any problems?
> 
> Its 3 fans.


Still. It is not personal perspective that determines the performance and you brought it up as proof when it was the case in point.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

Proof? What?

Are you reading deeper than you should be? I think so..


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## Fangio1951 (Sep 21, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I think to a fair degree, water cooling, especially custom is about 40% at least about looks, specially folks who do really pretty hardline loops. After my destruction of a gtx1080 and a z390 board, soft tube for me only now, even if it's not as purty


hi Gruffalo,

What caused the destruction of your Z390 mobo ??

Reason I ask is I'm just about to upgrade my system to a = Gigabyte Z390 Gaming X mobo.

regards


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Proof? What?
> 
> Are you reading deeper than you should be? I think so..


What I presented doesn't have to be about your example and you can leave it at that.
I said ducts and liquid metal. You tried to dissuade their necessity and you haven't.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

Why do I need liquid metal? I Have a Meshify C, I don't need ducts. That would fuck up my ram cooling, since I have the top of the case blocked.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Why do I need liquid metal?


Why do you have to take personal preference? I just say it as a physics concept. Not making any such reservations.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

Because you singled me out then asked for proof. I wasn't debating anything until you dragged me into it. I merely stated that water cooling is better than air cooling. Then you said no just liquid metal and something about the cold plate. I don't know, I'm just here man.


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## RealKGB (Sep 21, 2021)

I'm going to be using my Liquid Freezer II 120mm for a long time, as it's the best cooler my case will fit. I also have 2 ARCTIC P12's (one on radiator, one in bottom of case), one Noctua NF-F12 (front of case), and a big 190mm fan on the side of my case. There's also a 60mm fan zip-tied to my RAM because it gets toasty (I have B-die 3200 C14 and Nanya Tech 3200 C16 running at 3333 C16, they're close together and don't have all that much natural airflow).
For GPU cooling I have a GTX 690, which at first confused me. I then decided on switching the NF-F12 at the front of my case from intake to exhaust and running a pipe from the 690's exhaust to a panel on my case so that the airflow splits in my case. Air comes in the side and top, and goes out the front and back.

It's almost completely silent. The loudest thing in my case right now is the RAM fan and that's because it came from an Athlon XP cooler. If I turn it off I can't hear my system at all unless I spin up an HDD.

As such, I'll mark my position down as air. I know AIOs use water to transfer heat, but overall my system uses air to cool things and it does its job well.
Especially in winter - I can drop my system's temps by 15C during winter just by opening the window.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Because you singled me out then asked for proof. I wasn't debating anything until you dragged me into it. I merely stated that water cooling is better than air cooling. Then you said no just liquid metal and something about the cold plate. I don't know, I'm just here man.


Because you keep throwing hasty generalizations and personal viewpoints into the mix. I'd love to help if you didn't divulge in straw man so much.



RealKGB said:


> For GPU cooling I have a GTX 690, which at first confused me. I then decided on switching the NF-F12 at the front of my case from intake to exhaust and running a pipe from the 690's exhaust to a panel on my case so that the airflow splits in my case. Air comes in the side and top, and goes out the front and back.


It is the kind of thing I want to bring up. Heat spill from a gpu is very nasty and not vented properly.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I'd love to help if you didn't divulge in straw man so much.


But I don't have a problem?

I just said I had a hard time running all core clocks, I should have said I had a hard time running over 4750 

But she boosts to the tippy top, and she handles all core stuff ok on her own. My probably is I cant bench at 4800 all core lol. It gets hot, and uses most if not all the power the socket will give. I'll go with most because there is always room for more. I should put my sig back in and maybe  my specs. For all you know I could have a Celeron.

Edit:

My probably is  

I mean my problem is..


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 21, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> hi Gruffalo,
> 
> What caused the destruction of your Z390 mobo ??
> 
> ...



I had a water leak onto the 1080 and board, BOOM!!!!!!....................................................Cry


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

I got lucky with my kids. Bottle of formula tipped over and dripped through the top fan on my Define R4 and onto the top of my 980 Classified. Right on the VRM area.. of course I didn't notice until god knows how long later, it had already long dried. Back then my systems were always running, because if it was off then I knew there was a problem lol..


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> That is a terrible generalization. It is just better at the coldplate which can be easily equalised by liquid metal.
> 
> Aren't we discussing the two? Custom cooling is not in the same budget.



So putting liquid metal on a air cooler(generalization) coldplate, will make it better than a custom loop(generalization) I think it depends on the air cooler, the custom loop config, and the case and loads they are both under. "which can be easily equalised by liquid metal" this is a terrible generalization, without comparisons, or examples of one cooler or another vs a custom loop of some configuration.

A well setup custom loop cools both the CPU and GPU better than a air cooler, no doubt about it.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> A well setup custom loop cools both the CPU and GPU better than a air cooler, no doubt about it.


We will discuss this again when winter comes and I get my -40 and chilly house ambient


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## RealKGB (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It is the kind of thing I want to bring up. Heat spill from a gpu is very nasty and not vented properly.


Yeah, even with the tube it isn't all directed correctly. I'm considering getting a few 40mm fans and putting them in the front of my case to direct airflow.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

RealKGB said:


> Yeah, even with the tube it isn't all directed correctly. I'm considering getting a few 40mm fans and putting them in the front of my case to direct airflow.


I think we could discuss flow head characteristics of fans. Some should be able to pull from a longer duct. Personally, I think this is untreaded territory.


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## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

That's perfectly fine by me, I didn't ask for your help. Not to be rude or anything.

But you seem to think I need your expertise for some reason, all I am doing is just replying back to you.

I don't have anything beneficial to add because no one cares anyways.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> But you seem to think I need your expertise for some reason,


Your case isn't the benchmark which all pc cases are measured by. I can make any point I want and you don't have to hold yourself responsible to fulfill those clauses.



freeagent said:


> all I am doing is just replying back to you.


Your personal replies tend to overarch my general inquiries which is not why I make them.


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## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

I have seen/read so many threads/topics/debates about Air Vs Water, still some people are convinced and try to convince others that a simple tower with 1 fan or 2 when push/pull could match Watercooling


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## Ferd (Sep 21, 2021)

with so much testing results being easily available online it’s obvious water is superior, it’s just the setup and risk complexity compared to air that’s holding it back from being the first choice for the average person...

I personally like air , and I leave water for those times when air isn’t enough, or when air setup gets so huge and heavy . 
I think water , or liquid cooling in general will take over in the future, air being backed by decades of research and development while water is fairly new and still being improved, with new liquid chemicals being tested etc...


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I had a water leak onto the 1080 and board, BOOM!!!!!!....................................................Cry


I had to laugh at the comedy of your response, but the end of a 1080 is still very sad..


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 21, 2021)

we all can argue untill the the cows come home but unless we were in the same room with our riggs doing the same test it dont mean shit, we cant prove nothing over the internet.
my own thoughts is its 50/50 horses for courses. but i lean towards a loop because i like the look but if thay got a bit more inventive with air coolers i could change in a heart beat or two for cpu but id keep a small loop on the gpu because in my view you carnt beat it for cooling.
LM ive only ever used it on laptops, for a rigg it dont impress me what drop you get in temp vs risk.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

Ferd said:


> it’s just the setup and risk complexity compared to air that’s holding it back from being the first choice


I think the sentiment should be the same for liquid metal conductors, but people overplay the risks while liquid metal won't ever leak, or seep like water does...



xtreemchaos said:


> we all can argue untill the the cows come home but unless we were in the same room with our riggs doing the same test it dont mean shit, we cant prove nothing over the internet.
> my own thoughts is its 50/50 horses for courses. but i lean towards a loop because i like the look but if thay got a bit more inventive with air coolers i could change in a heart beat or two.


I tend to agree air cooler enthusiasts need to be more inventive, there is nothing holding them back from a higher thermal transmittance paste, or airflow discretization. Personally, I think even crimped end fin arrays help in dedicating forced convection towards cooler exhaust without losing pressure toward the sides of the cooler.


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## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

Ferd said:


> I think water , or liquid cooling in general will take over in the future,


I doubt it.
Too many people are afraid of a leak/drop of water  
they prefer to run their CPUs at 80c rather than build a Custom Loop.


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## Bones (Sep 21, 2021)

If all goes well with the work I may have something kinda unique to show I created earlier.
Just finished reassembly and the setup part comes next, later today (I hope) and onto testing after that.

If all goes well I think you guys will like it.... But it's gotta work before I can show it.
Yeah, it's something crazy but then again, look who's making it.


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## Valantar (Sep 21, 2021)

This discussion sure took a ... let's say interesting turn. I mean, arguing for introducing arbitrary limitations and/or advantages in order to "show" which is "best"? That sounds ... problematic. Should coke-v-pepsi taste tests be decided by adding mustard to the pepsi beforehand? Liquid metal can be used anywhere you want to. TIM is (mostly) universally applicable (just don't use LM on an aluminium cold plate). Cooler size is dependent on what the case can fit, regardless of whether that's air or liquid cooling. Etc., etc. Setting arbitrary limitations on any of these, whether it's only using LM on air cooling or not fully populating your radiator mount ... proves nothing except the _radical_ notion that worse cooling = worse cooling.

It's obvious we can't come to any hard conclusion discussing like this. I would argue that such a conclusion _is impossible_, as there are too many variables in play  - from CPU/GPU power, thermal density, case design (both in terms of cooler fitment/clearances as well as component layouts), case airflow, fans, pump speeds and flow rates, noise characteristics of various coolers (and cases and fan grilles and other relevant factors) - and a heap more.

But that's not the point either, is it? Is the interesting part of this discussion finding a universal and absolute conclusion? I would think the interesting part is _the discussion_ _itself_, hearing the arguments (and thus use cases, priorities and preferences) of others. There is a 100% chance that someone will bring up something that you didn't consider or consider important; that someone will have very different priorities than you. Isn't exploring these connections - between preferences, priorities, desires and the choices made - the interesting part here? This becomes especially poignant once the search for some absolute answer leads us into some absurd nit-picky defining of conditions like what we've seen here. Is that interesting? Not to me, at least.

I mean, if it's hard answers we're looking for it's easy to just list the pros/cons of each broad type of cooling. We've all seen a hundred lists like that. Each solution has both advantages and disadvantages. Isn't it far more interesting to see which of these people choose to prioritize, and why?


FireFox said:


> they prefer to run their CPUs at 80c rather than build a Custom Loop.


This is a perfect example! I _have_ a custom loop, _and_ run my CPU around 80°C. Why not? The CPU has absolutely zero problems delivering peak performance at that temperature. And doing so allows me to run a (hot-running!) 5800X (-10 CO, +150MHz PBO, slightly lowered PPT/EDC/TDC, ~120W peak) and a 6900 XT (mostly running at a ~180W UV+UC profile, but fully capable of running at 330W if I need the performance) in a 14.7l case. Part of the reason for the high CPU temps is my Nouvolo Aquanaut CPU block+DDC pump mount, which isn't the best thermal performer. But who cares? I get a great pump, that runs very quietly, in a tiny form factor, and my CPU isn't complaining. I'm not extatic that my CPU is that hot, but the 5800X is notorious for running hot, so ... meh. The pros by far outweigh the cons. The overall package is fantastic - a tiny PC with fantastic performance, great efficiency (especially with the GPU profile), low noise (the system is literally inaudible over ambient noise for desktop usage, and even with the pump and fans pegged at 100% it's reasonably quiet, yet cools a ~500W load admirably). But as I said above: if I was starting from scratch today, I'd likely go air, due to cost and simplicity - something like a Noctua U9s or C14S and a honking huge air-cooled GPU in a Dan C4 or CM NR200 (could fit an even larger air cooler there) would likely be my choice then. It would be a bit louder under load (though deshrouding the GPU would no doubt alleviate some of that), but it would still be great.

The point is: air can be great, AIOs can be great, custom loops can be great - it all depends on the situation and implementation. Isn't that _so_ much more interesting than some pointless trench warfare about which is "best"?


----------



## Bones (Sep 21, 2021)

I use air for my daily because it's hassle-free vs water but water overall does give the best temps, esp _under load_. I've been doing what I do for about 20 years now and I've practically done it all in one form or another to know that over my time of just running it to actually benchmarking competively with it at the bot.

Personally I go custom when I do water, don't care for an AIO and even gave one away once I had won because I just don't like them.


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## Ferd (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I think the sentiment should be the same for liquid metal conductors, but people overplay the risks while liquid metal won't ever leak, or seep like water does...


LM and Tims are a another topic that I am sure a lot of us will have different opinions about .... 
my opinion about it is that’s it’s great to have as an option and should be used wisely, only use it when trying to overcome IHS<->Coldplate transfer bottleneck, which can be tricky to identify for the uninitiated 
If thermal paste is not creating a bottleneck don’t bother unless you want it for fun or just want to test the liquid metal magic



FireFox said:


> I doubt it.
> Too many people are afraid of a leak/drop of water
> they prefer to run their CPUs at 80c rather than build a Custom Loop.


Man I can’t blame the regular folks , most of the people here are quite hardcore and we sometimes forget that we’re not the majority.... 

out there are people installing systems to run basic software for business management or telecommunication , hospitals and schools etc... I don’t expect oems to install water cooling on those systems because it’s not profitable and keeps entry cost low attracting more customers, probably those “regular “ systems are like 80% of the computers in the planet with the rest being some exotic cooling solutions for servers and a small percentage being custom loops ...


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

Ferd said:


> only use it when trying to overcome IHS<->Coldplate transfer bottleneck,


Agreed. It has its niche spot in the hearts of enthusiasts however, the majority would infact find distaste in their cpu fan suddenly overloading their case temperature, myself first. It is really difficult comparative to water cooling equipment, to keep case temperature


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Too many people are afraid of a leak/drop of water


With good reason of course. No one wants a dead system or part.



Ferd said:


> Man I can’t blame the regular folks , most of the people here are quite hardcore and we sometimes forget that we’re not the majority....


This. We all need to remember that we are enthusiasts, effectively elite of the tech world. We represent a small fraction of the world's PC/Tech users.


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## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I _have_ a custom loop, _and_ run my CPU around 80°C. Why not? The CPU has absolutely zero problems delivering peak performance at that temperature


I assume that the 80c your talking about is just temp spikes, right?


lexluthermiester said:


> With good reason of course. No one wants a dead system or part


Everytime I am about to turn on the PC i start recording with my phone the moment when i press the power button just in case there was a leak and the PC the catches fire


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> effectively elite of the tech world


I hadn’t looked at it that way.. maybe I should..


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I assume that the 80c your talking about is just temp spikes, right?
> 
> Everytime I am about to turn on the PC i start recording with my phone the moment when i press the power button just in case there was a leak and the PC the catches fire



wish i'd recorded mine when the 1080 bit the dust, i was devastated, but fuck it, lesson learned, no more hard line.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

Sometimes it's matter of luck.
Building custom loop for many years and i've never done a leaking test 
That's luck or madness


----------



## GerKNG (Sep 21, 2021)

i really don't like any kind of liquid in my PC...
but something like an NH D15 is even worse.
i can't reach my M.2, GPU, RAM and GPU temps are going up by a lot when both fans are attached and suck air in before it reaches the GPU.

my first h150i pro xt even had a leak but i'd still stick to an AIO because of how it looks and for the performance. (my 5800X for example loses almost 200Mhz in Cinebench when going from an NH U12S to a 360mm AIO.)


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 21, 2021)

i allways leak test ive allso got a pressure tester whats ment for putting air into motorbike shocks but it works just as well as the ek ones , i run the loop for a hour or two with no voltage from the psu just to be on the safe side ive only ever had one leak and it was just bad joint.


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## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

I think 80°C is definitely biofouling territory. Whoever runs water coolers at that temperature is asking for it.



GerKNG said:


> my 5800X for example loses almost 200Mhz in Cinebench when going from an NH U12S to a 360mm AIO.


You know, ryzens have an ihs concavity problem that resolves only with high tension pressure.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I think 80°C is definitely biofouling territory. Whoever runs water coolers at that temperature is asking for it.
> 
> 
> You know, ryzens have an ihs concavity problem that resolves only with high tension pressure.



You may have misquoted me, my comment has nothing to do with running at 80c or water temp


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> You may have misquoted me, my comment has nothing to do with running at 80c or water temp


Yeah, sorry about that. Should have quoted your source.



Valantar said:


> I _have_ a custom loop, _and_ run my CPU around 80°C. Why not? The CPU has absolutely zero problems delivering peak performance at that temperature.


That is how you get a dead system long term.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Sometimes it's matter of luck.
> Building custom loop for many years and i've never done a leaking test
> That's luck or madness


Hi,
Well technically just filling with fluid is leak testing
No leaks is not luck it's just making sure all fittings/... are installed/ assembled well a not getting in a hurry
Speed kills in loop assembly we should save that for benchmarks lol

To the op
GPU's benefit the most temp wise on water blocks
You go from a loud 60c++ gpu to a quiet 40++ gpu just with a water block, that's a big difference lol

QDC's are sweet


----------



## GerKNG (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I think 80°C is definitely biofouling territory. Whoever runs water coolers at that temperature is asking for it.
> 
> 
> You know, ryzens have an ihs concavity problem that resolves only with high tension pressure.


i know.
that's why i don't use Asetek AIOs.
but a Noctua Cooler works perfectly fine on ryzen. it's just that even my NH D15 at 100% RPM (1500RPM) is around 10-15% warmer than my AIO at 1200 RPM Fan Speed and balanced pump speed (inaudible even with an open case)


----------



## Outback Bronze (Sep 21, 2021)

Yeah, I love Water Cooling but Air Cooling is way more practical.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

I had one for a few hours.












Arrived, installed, tested it and sent back the same day


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

Hi,
Yeah I just keep a little 212 evo for emergency use
I was looking to get a new one but just threw that to a back burner because the be-quiet I was interested in had a shit mounting system new model was supposed to be better.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

One thing i have to admit about the Noctua NH D15, that cooler is damn Sexy.

I paid €100 for the Noctua, when i sent it back and got the refund i bought an Alphacool Eisbaer LT360 for €100+, that said, for an Air cooler was expensive


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> One thing i have to admit about the Noctua NH D15, that cooler is damn Sexy.
> 
> I paid €100 for the Noctua, when i sent it back and got the refund i bought an Alphacool Eisbaer LT360 for €100+, that said, for an Air cooler was expensive


Hi,
Yeah about time they went black but yes they are prowd their old color scheme is nasty.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Well technically just filling with fluid is leak testing


Right.
I remember a funny fact that happened to a friend of mine, he built a custom loop and filled it up with the pump speed at 3000rpm, everything seemed ok, no leaks, but when he increased the pump speed at 5000rpm due to the air bubbles the loop started to leak in 2 different points


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Right.
> I remember a funny fact that happened to a friend of mine, he built a custom loop and filled it up with the pump speed at 3000rpm, everything seemed ok, no leaks, but when he increased the pump speed at 5000rpm due to the air bubbles the loop started to leak in 2 different points


Hi,
Yep just leak testing in real time I do it too

Most consider leak testing using air pressure not water but it's not as much fun that way lol


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Yeah, sorry about that. Should have quoted your source.
> 
> 
> That is how you get a dead system long term.


Systems die long-term anyway, might as well use the shit.
I'm with him but at 70°C all the time, oh and my last pc exceeded it's usefulness way before I killed it and it was a cooker FX at high temperatures for life.

We do have cooler's attached and it's thermal cutoff would save it if it's frequency drop control didn't?!.

Or you could leave it on standby all its life bar gaming ,I imagine it would last age's.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

Hi,
20c under tj max should be fine for 24/7 365 

But I have a system from 2009 acer q9550 still working but can't oc it so definitely increases life span not being able to play with it as much as my other systems not near as old x99 being the oldest after that one which hopefully it will last 12+ years to on a custom loop


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

I aim for the 70s but am ok in the low 80s. Though I have seen a hundred + a few times. All core clocks will getcha every time..


----------



## dirtyferret (Sep 21, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> This thread can only end up in "my preference is better, so STFU"



You can apply that to 90% of all threads posted.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 21, 2021)

My notification dropped me to page 5, where the topic was the Noctua NH-D15. I can't be asked to read back so much, so I jumped to page 8. The topic is still the D15. It looks like I didn't miss a thing.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Systems die long-term anyway, might as well use the shit.
> I'm with him but at 70°C all the time, oh and my last pc exceeded it's usefulness way before I killed it and it was a cooker FX at high temperatures for life.
> 
> We do have cooler's attached and it's thermal cutoff would save it if it's frequency drop control didn't?!.
> ...


This was a reply to that. You need to dissociate between cpu life and loop life which is heavily compromised by temperature.


mtcn77 said:


> I think 80°C is definitely biofouling territory. Whoever runs water coolers at that temperature is asking for it.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I aim for the 70s but am ok in the low 80s


Spikes?
Sorry for asking the same question 2 times but the first one wasn't answered.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> This was a reply to that. You need to dissociate between cpu life and loop life which is heavily compromised by temperature.


Yeah but CPU at 80 isn't watercooling at 80.
And he said his CPU is at 80 not his loop.
Beyond 60 on the loop is as you say.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Yeah but CPU at 80 isn't watercooling at 80.


That is why i have been asking the same question over and over again


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Yeah but CPU at 80 isn't watercooling at 80.
> 
> Beyond 60 on the loop is as you say.


Hi,
Depends on system and clocks used 
80c is pretty easy to achieve not really that dangerous either


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Depends on system and clocks used
> 80c is pretty easy to achieve not really that dangerous either


60°C water temperature and above kills pumps.
Well pc watercooling ones.

I aim for 50 max on water and achieve with relative ease.

Plus if you're water is 80°c it's not going to cool a CPU at 80 is it you need a temperature differential.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> 60°C water temperature and above kills pumps.
> Well pc watercooling ones.
> 
> I aim for 50 max on water and achieve with relative ease.
> ...


Hi,
You just said 80c water cooling not 80c water temperature though lol


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

I would like to see that one with 60/80c water temp 

Maybe they are planning to boil a chicken


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 21, 2021)

lol at 60c+ water temps the tubes are gonna feel like fresh cooked spaghetti noodles.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Spikes?
> Sorry for asking the same question 2 times but the first one wasn't answered.


Sorry @ work and didn’t see, no spikes nice and mellow until shit gets real


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

I like how this thread turned into water cooler people's pretext board.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I like how this thread turned into water cooler people's pretext board.


We already forgot about Air cooling


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> You just said 80c water cooling not 80c water temperature though lol


Oh right sorry I get you now , you knew what I meant though.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Oh right sorry I get you now , you knew what I meant though.


Hi,
I do now but didn't before 
You're spot on with the dead pump soon temperature though 60c bad 

I've not run into 50c water you've run into though 
Mine stays at or under 40c maybe it's the mora3 360 kicking in preventing that :/


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

I am not all Watercooling.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I am not all Watercooling.
> 
> View attachment 217730


Nice, but self harm, is not a good thing.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

Hi,
Another build is born


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 21, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Water cooling is imo better for a gpu, mine is in the 20's idle and no higher than 50 load.



It would be the same way if CPU didn't have IHS. GPUs benefit a lot from water cooling because the block is slapped directly to the die.



thesmokingman said:


> lol at 60c+ water temps the tubes are gonna feel like fresh cooked spaghetti noodles.


And if you run PETG hard tubing, those tubes will start to unbend themselves and disasters can happen. That won't happen with acrylic tubing.

If your water temps get over 45c there is something wrong.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> I do now but didn't before
> You're spot on with the dead pump soon temperature though 60c bad
> 
> ...


I only hit 50 with the right combo of load and not wanting to hear my fans.
And I am fine with that, I don't usually run it that way now ,it depends how far away the pc is from my sleeping ears .

Though I do set it up to run warm in winter for semi free, it's running Fah and Wcg anyway room heating, it's quite effective.

And is why I know the max allowed water temp .

Specifically I setup the temps fans etc how I want, and max cooling is just one mode, max room heating being another, with profiles it's easy to mix it up.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 21, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> And if you run PETG hard tubing, those tubes will start to unbend themselves and disasters can happen.


My tubing melted overnight​Pump failed! PETG tubing collapsed​


http://imgur.com/a/vV4EZ


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> We already forgot about Air cooling


Water is best when it is overprovisioned. There is no disagreement on that front. However, the main difference we have got is about air when I say, air is best when it is maxed out. They have different highlights imo.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

High performance air cooling.. loud AF.. you can run those quiet Noctua fans but that isn’t high performance air cooling lol.. that’s cooling quietly.. mid performance 

As much as I dislike winter as I age gracefully, it’s still good for computers with loud fans


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> High performance air cooling.. loud AF.. you can run those quiet Noctua fans but that isn’t high performance air cooling lol.. that’s cooling quietly.. mid performance
> 
> As much as I dislike winter as I age gracefully, it’s still good for computers with loud fans


Hi,
Seasonal overclockers fun time, air or water cooled because for these few months we all have something in common finally


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Seasonal overclockers fun time, air or water cooled because for these few months we all have something in common finally


Next year I will dip my toes in water. Waiting for the wave to take hold here for the 4th time. Many uncertainties right now.. mostly with my wife and kids, the care home she works at is closing and she might be home with the kids if they close the schools again. That means less moneys for my hobbies


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> My tubing melted overnight​Pump failed! PETG tubing collapsed​
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/vV4EZ



That is why i run acrylic hard tube, it takes a lot more heat to effect its structural rigidity.


----------



## mouacyk (Sep 21, 2021)

/poll


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Next year I will dip my toes in water. Waiting for the wave to take hold here for the 4th time. Many uncertainties right now.. mostly with my wife and kids, the care home she works at is closing and she might be home with the kids if they close the schools again. That means less moneys for my hobbies


How much money you spend is not in direct association with what you get out of it. Hobbies can be utilities. PC can be free heating, believe me it just needs a good and efficient cooler and you have a cozy radiator with led lights.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I assume that the 80c your talking about is just temp spikes, right?


Nope, steady-state under all-core loads or heavy single-core loads. A single CCD consuming 120-130W gets hot. Well, with my current config it sits around 75°C, at ~4.55GHz/120W doing things like video transcoding. At stock it ran somewhere between 80 and 85 - though I've also changed my fan/pump profile since then. The reason is pretty simple: the Aquanaut is a reverse-flow water block, i.e. the DDC pump doesn't push water through the microfins, but sucks them out through it. That leads to relatively poor utilization of the cold plate, and thus high temps. My loop is configured for silence first, fans are controlled only by water temperatures and not component temperatures, which when coupled with low pump speeds means the CPU is allowed to run hot. Though I've configured Aquasuite to switch over to a 100% fan speed/60% pump PWM (which is essentially 100% speed - its PWM response is weird) profile if CPU load is above 90% for more than 10 seconds. That's what nets me temperatures in the mid 70s under full load - though IIRC Handbrake uses AVX. Haven't tested any lighter all-core loads after tweaking.

This is what a pretty typical desktop usage scenario looks like for me:




Yes, the intake is quite hot, they've just started ramping up the central heating in my building, and it's taking some time getting the radiators dialed in. Typical fall 


mtcn77 said:


> I think 80°C is definitely biofouling territory. Whoever runs water coolers at that temperature is asking for it.


If your water is 80°C you're definitely not getting biofouling, unless you've sampled some extremophiles from your nearest volcanic sea floor vent. Most bacteria and other organisms die at around 60°C. The problem is that your pump, tubing, fittings, o-rings and other components wouldn't do well under that temperature for long. Plus the thermal transfer between water and a hotter component would be trash with just a 10-20°C delta between them. Also, where did you get 80°C liquid temps from?


mtcn77 said:


> That is how you get a dead system long term.


Lolwut? Show me proof of a CPU that died from runnning at 80°C with a TjMax of 95-100 and I'll give you $100. CPU/APU/GPU silicon has no problem with those types of temperatures unless there is something _seriously_ wrong with it. Heck, most laptops _idle_ in that temperature range (as that's their only way of being reasonably silent at idle). And while laptops do fail often, the CPUs are _not_ what typically fails - that's mostly batteries or other components failing due to _them_ not handling high temperatures well, not the CPU.


mtcn77 said:


> This was a reply to that. You need to dissociate between cpu life and loop life which is heavily compromised by temperature.


Yet you were the one bringing loop life into this, after I talked about my CPU temperature?



mtcn77 said:


> How much money you spend is not in direct association with what you get out of it. Hobbies can be utilities. PC can be free heating, believe me it just needs a good and efficient cooler and you have a cozy radiator with led lights.


Eeeh ... unless you're running some crazy HEDT CPU and a few GPUs that heating is negligible. Most electric heaters are 1000-2000W if they are meant to produce noticeable heat in anything but a very small room. A PC outputting 3-400W does obviously deliver _some _heat, but it's really not a lot. And calling it _free_ is also a bit of a stretch, given that a $100 high quality space heater can do a lot more for a lot less.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> My tubing melted overnight​Pump failed! PETG tubing collapsed​
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/vV4EZ


That's an example of what people are afraid of with liquid cooling.


MxPhenom 216 said:


> That is why i run acrylic hard tube, it takes a lot more heat to effect its structural rigidity.


Acrylic has other problems. I generally recommend soft tubing.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Also, where did you get 80°C liquid temps from?


Dow Chemical Company?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Dow Chemical Company?


Uh ... what? Where in this thread. That was the question. Or are you just pulling in entirely unrelated and irrelevant information at this point? Heck, aluminium melts at ~660°C, so don't run your CPU that hot, I guess?


----------



## freeagent (Sep 21, 2021)

No not the end of the thread.. different strokes for different folks!

I am a pussy by nature so I stuck with air all these years 

That’s not to say I’ve been secretly wanting something better this entire time..


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Uh ... what? Where in this thread. That was the question. Or are you just pulling in entirely unrelated and irrelevant information at this point? Heck, aluminium melts at ~660°C, so don't run your CPU that hot, I guess?


Somebody by the name of, 'you,' said you ran your water cooler that hot. Anyway, you don't determine biofouling, Dow Chemical Company does. That is where the biocides are produced.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 21, 2021)

i used to use Acrylic its fragile it cracks easy its not as good a PETG to bend but it do look better it has the look of glass. ill still use it if a customer asks but for my self no not anymore ive moved on   .


----------



## RealKGB (Sep 21, 2021)

The last bit I need for P4HT's water loop is 2 80mm radiators with 1/8" inner diameter pipe (It can be 1/4" but adapters aren't cheap).
Any thoughts on which radiators I should get? I'm not looking to go ultra cheapo mode but I don't want to spend $70+ per radiator. I'm using Arctic F8 80mm fans in a Lian Li PC-62 if you're curious.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Sep 21, 2021)

The red spirit said:


> I don't disagree with that, but reviews for cheap products are scarce. It's crazy how hard it is to find a review of say Pentium G6400 or Celeron G5900, compared to i9. It's also hard to find thermal tests done on cheap cards like 1650 from say Asus Phoenix. And yet pretty much every RTX 3070 and up are tested in depth. Same with motherboards and SSDs. If you want to build a cheap machine, then finding reviews for components is next to impossible. Even worse if you want to learn something about regional brands like Alpenfohn, SilentiumPC or Chieftec.


See, as someone who has used a recent pentium product in a build, I want to see someone watercool a pentium. I know from experience that the pentium will run without a heatsink. Not fan, heatsink, just bare IHS is sufficient in a case with no fans for some time before it overheats with heavy constant load. i want to see someone put a waterblock on it and keep it at room temp, for lulz.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 21, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> See, as someone who has used a recent pentium product in a build, I want to see someone watercool a pentium. I know from experience that the pentium will run without a heatsink. Not fan, heatsink, just bare IHS is sufficient in a case with no fans for some time before it overheats with heavy constant load. i want to see someone put a waterblock on it and keep it at room temp, for lulz.


Though not a pentium, I put a 120 mm AIO on a 35 W T-series Sandy i3 once. It ran under 50 °C in every scenario... without a fan.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Somebody by the name of, 'you,' said you ran your water cooler that hot. Anyway, you don't determine biofouling, Dow Chemical Company does. That is where the biocides are produced.


Finally a straight answer! So that's where you claim to get that from. Except that I said this:


Valantar said:


> I _have_ a custom loop, _and_ run my CPU around 80°C.


So, what does that say? That _my CPU_ runs at around 80. Not the cooler. Not the water in the loop. The CPU. _This was my entire point_: it's clear that you flat-out misread what was said, and took that in a rather weird direction. All I was trying to say is that nobody is claiming their water loop runs at that temperature, nor is anyone claiming that this would be safe - or even possible at all. You can't run a water loop at 80°C liquid temperatures. Nobody has said they did so either. You misread what I said. Discussion done. Now can we please move on from this stupid side-track?


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> So, what does that say? That _my CPU_ runs at around 80. Not the cooler. Not the water in the loop. The CPU. _This was my entire point_: it's clear that you flat-out misread what was said, and took that in a rather weird direction.


You seem to forget water is 10 times better at extracting heat than copper. If your cpu is 80°C, your copper cold plate could be 79°C and water could be *78.9°C* while still at the same carrying capacity, that is the difference. Your water is not far behind.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's an example of what people are afraid of with liquid cooling.
> 
> Acrylic has other problems. I generally recommend soft tubing.



Like what? soft looks like shit.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You seem to forget water is 10 times better at extracting heat than copper. If your cpu is 80°C, your copper cold plate could be 79°C and water could be *78.9°C* while still at the same carrying capacity, that is the difference. Your water is not far behind.


Watercooling works with much bigger temperature differences than that. Water that hot would never be able to keep your CPU anywhere near its operating temperature range, exactly because of the transfer among materials that you mentioned.

(Not that I understand what the point of the argument is, but never mind.)


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Watercooling works with much bigger temperature differences than that. Water that hot would never be able to keep your CPU anywhere near its operating temperature range, exactly because of the transfer among materials that you mentioned.
> 
> (Not that I understand what the point of the argument is, but never mind.)


I don't think you really understand specific heat, but carry on.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You seem to forget water is 10 times better at extracting heat than copper. If your cpu is 80°C, your copper cold plate could be 79°C and water could be *78.9°C* while still at the same carrying capacity, that is the difference. Your water is not far behind.


Uh... No. That's not how thermal transfer works. You're assuming essentially perfect and immediate transfer. That is a semi-utopian best case scenario. A real water block is never that good. Also, I have temperature sensors in my loop, so I know how hot the fluid gets. Now, I don't have one directly after the CPU, and some heat does sink into the GPU when it's idle, but... My fluid temps peak in the low 40s when the entire system is running flat out. Yeah, no, the GPU is not lowering water temperatures by 40-50 degrees (especially seeing how the radiator only lowers temps by 2-5 degrees depending on pump speed). So no, at no point in my loop is the fluid anywhere near 80 degrees.

Edit: derp, 2-5, not 2-50.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2021)

mouacyk said:


> /poll


Seconded.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I don't think you really understand specific heat, but carry on.


I never even mentioned anything remotely related to specific heat. I was talking about heat transfer among materials, but carry on.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (Sep 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Uh... No. That's not how thermal transfer works. You're assuming essentially perfect and immediate transfer. That is a semi-utopian best case scenario. A real water block is never that good. Also, I have temperature sensors in my loop, so I know how hot the fluid gets. Now, I don't have one directly after the CPU, and some heat does sink into the GPU when it's idle, but... My fluid temps peak in the low 40s when the entire system is running flat out. Yeah, no, the GPU is not lowering water temperatures by 40-50 degrees (especially seeing how the radiator only lowers temps by 2-50 degrees depending on pump speed). So no, at no point in my loop is the fluid anywhere near 80 degrees.


mtcn is our resident HVAC expert...or so he thinks



Valantar said:


> Uh... No. That's not how thermal transfer works. You're assuming essentially perfect and immediate transfer. That is a semi-utopian best case scenario. A real water block is never that good. Also, I have temperature sensors in my loop, so I know how hot the fluid gets. Now, I don't have one directly after the CPU, and some heat does sink into the GPU when it's idle, but... My fluid temps peak in the low 40s when the entire system is running flat out. Yeah, no, the GPU is not lowering water temperatures by 40-50 degrees (especially seeing how the radiator only lowers temps by 2-50 degrees depending on pump speed). So no, at no point in my loop is the fluid anywhere near 80 degrees.


It doesn't matter exactly where you have the temp sensors for the fluid in the loop. After a couple minutes, it should reach equilibrium and water temps will be the same throughout. I have one sensor in mine as a plug for an unused port on my res. My water temps bounce around 38-41c depending on the game.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I never even mentioned anything remotely related to specific heat. I was talking about heat transfer among materials, but carry on.


You must be a different type of science enthusiast, but do carry on.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You seem to forget water is 10 times better at extracting heat than copper. If your cpu is 80°C, your copper cold plate could be 79°C and water could be *78.9°C* while still at the same carrying capacity, that is the difference. Your water is not far behind.


Hi,
Stagnant water/ fluid maybe but we all have pumps that circulate fluid so your thinking/ science does not apply here.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You must be a different type of science enthusiast, but do carry on.


What's your point? Let's not sink to the level of making things personal.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Stagnant water/ fluid maybe but we all have pumps that circulate fluid so your thinking does not apply here.


Really, like equilibrium? That is what I said. Heat exchange is the same at the radiator, the ihs and the water.



AusWolf said:


> What's your point? Let's not sink to the level of making things personal.


Heat transmittance function is not up to debate.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 21, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Really, like equilibrium? That is what I said. Heat exchange is the same at the radiator, the ihs and the water.


Hi,
Yeah you worded your statement earlier a little freaky but i get what you're saying now my bad.


----------



## The red spirit (Sep 21, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> See, as someone who has used a recent pentium product in a build, I want to see someone watercool a pentium. I know from experience that the pentium will run without a heatsink. Not fan, heatsink, just bare IHS is sufficient in a case with no fans for some time before it overheats with heavy constant load. i want to see someone put a waterblock on it and keep it at room temp, for lulz.


Well, it might even run well under all loads with just stock heatsink without a fan. It would be nice to know that.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yeah you worded your statement earlier a little freaky but i get what you're saying now my bad.


I never take an apology for granted. Eventually, we shall all agree what is happening is in accordance with physical phenomena and taking the optimal heat transfer as the benchmark is a good starting point to which we can add side functions.
Enough trolling, good night gentlemen.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 22, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> Like what?


Oh, like...


xtreemchaos said:


> its fragile it cracks easy


...this for example. 

Big problem when you want to keep a sealed fluid system actually sealed. But it also tends to react with the chemicals used to kill bio-growth, which causes discolouration.


MxPhenom 216 said:


> soft looks like shit.


That is YOUR opinion. A lot of people would disagree and consider hard tubing a very real PITA, especially if you do frequent upgrades.


----------



## Bones (Sep 22, 2021)

As promised earlier. 










Still have some things to fix and refine but the basic concept of it's application works.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 22, 2021)

Bones said:


> As promised earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this is going to be epic. honestly can't wait to see what the final product looks like. also this is kind of genius, I am surprised the big companies have not thought of this yet.


----------



## Fangio1951 (Sep 22, 2021)

Bones said:


> As promised earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hi m8,

Nice bit of DIY, but, where's the cooling component of the loop = no radiator/fans ??


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 22, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> hi m8,
> 
> Nice bit of DIY, but, where's the cooling component of the loop = no radiator/fans ??



I am confused as well, I was thinking he was 3D printing then like shaping a connector/enclosure to support an AIO mounting device... but I can't tell from the video either what is going on really. Wither way, it is a great idea and neat concept.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Really, like equilibrium? That is what I said. Heat exchange is the same at the radiator, the ihs and the water.
> 
> 
> Heat transmittance function is not up to debate.


... but nobody is discussing that. Why? Because it isn't relevant. As you say, the function is what it is. Physics is not up for debate here. What is variable, and thus interesting to discuss, is the conditions in play: cold plate designs, radiator designs, flow rates, airflow, thermal deltas, liquid volumes, etc. With all of this in play, thermal transfer between materials is just one of many, many functions in play. And going off this, saying "heat exchange is the same at the radiator, the ihs and the water" is a ridiculous oversimplification. It _works in the same way_ (i.e. as long as you know the materials and their temperatures you can make rough calculations based off variants of the same formula), but it is by no means _the same_ - literally every variable is different, from absolute temperatures to deltas to transfer media to surface areas to flow paths to materials and thicknesses. A CPU block has a huge thermal delta (gradual between hot and cold silicon->IHS->cold plate->water) but very little surface area, and depending on cold plate design and CPU hot spot layout potentially very uneven distribution of flow vs. hotspots. A radiator typically has a much, much lower thermal delta (I've never seen a water loop exceed 20 degrees above ambient, but I've seen many CPUs run 40-50 degrees above water temp), has a much larger surface area, typically has very evenly distributed flow, but also transfers heat into a much less efficient medium - air. And, as you hopefully know, the smaller the thermal delta, the less efficient the thermal transfer. Which is why the scenario you posited above - that with an 80-degree CPU, the water in the loop might be 78.9 degrees - is _never going to happen_ as long as there's a radiator in the loop, any liquid flow, and there is any airflow through the radiator. I did see something like that with the clogged Enermax AIO on my partner's Threadripper system  - it thermal throttled down to ~600MHz, but due to no flow the water in the pump block housing and the first couple of inches of tubing got ridiculously hot. But once you have an actually functioning water loop, that is never going to happen. The thermal load required to maintain 80-degree water temperatures in any human-survivable ambient temperature with a radiator in the loop would be _immense_.

With this many variables in play, starting from an assumption of perfect and immediate thermal transfer is _bad methodology_. You need to account for the specifics of the system being measured _first_, unless you want your data to be so fundamentally flawed as to be utterly useless.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 22, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> But it also tends to react with the chemicals used to kill bio-growth,


i dont use them bud its a big con that one needs to add shit, if you keep to copper nickel and brass all you need is distilled water , i started watercooling in the 80s when everything was homemade or reused bits from whatever i could find. i double dare anyone to try it it would be a Zen moment for those who do.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 22, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> i dont use them bud its a big con that one needs to add shit, if you keep to copper nickel and brass all you need is distilled water , i started watercooling in the 80s when everything was homemade or reused bits from whatever i could find. i double dare anyone to try it it would be a Zen moment for those who do.



I have filled my loop with De-Ionised water and nothing else, i will try it as is and report on the results. Could not get distilled, it's rocking horse piss in the UK. My loop is afaik copper and brass only


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 22, 2021)

De-Ionised water is as good thats what i use the stuff to top car batterys up. thanks for trying it you wont be disapointed bud.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 22, 2021)

MxPhenom 216 said:


> soft looks like shit.


I feel safer when using soft tubing.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 22, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I feel safer when using soft tubing.



Me too, had a disaster with hard tubes. Never again. It's a pain to setup. a pain to strip down, a pain to bend correctly. Nothing wrong with soft tubes, it's what everyone used before hard line with no problems. Hard line is more for looks than practicality.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 22, 2021)

with hard tube the more you do the better you get, everybody messes up its human nature, i mess up from time to time and i learn then forget and mess up again   you was just unlucky mate the odds are against it happening again are shorter.


----------



## Ferd (Sep 22, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Hard line is more for looks than practicality.


I think hardlines are carried out from other applications, where it’s not just for looks but are a must to avoid tubes bursting unders pressure...
But you’re right, in a low pressure scenario like pc loops it’s an individual preference more than anything


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I feel safer when using soft tubing.


I would never go for hard tubing, no matter what. I guess I could use it in part if I wanted to hide some straight runs (i.e. in lieu of a distro plate, with soft tubing leading from it to all components), but it seems like _such_ a hassle, I frankly don't like the looks all that much, and it seems like an utter nightmare for maintenance. I use EK's ZMT neoprene soft tubing, and it's rock solid, looks good, and is not too hard to work with. It's much stiffer than most soft tubing, so there are some extra considerations when working with it, but it's a pure joy when installed. Looks good, essentially kink-proof, easily cut to length, etc.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 22, 2021)

I don't have any problems bending tubing because i have done it already for three of my friends, it's easy after you learn how to do it, but for my own PC i would never use it.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 22, 2021)

I'm using EK ZMT black now, nice tubing, didn't bother with clear as i don't use coloured water and don't need to see the fluid in the tubes.


----------



## xtreemchaos (Sep 22, 2021)

i like soft tube as much as hard i done it many times, i like the black stuff the most cus we all know how the clear changes colour over time and theres skill needed to to make a soft tube look at its best in my view as much as any tubing apart from glass or SS.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 22, 2021)

I think if i was going to use hard lines again, i would use glass or copper pipes. Didn't really like the acrylic either, so fucking brittle. imo the glass borosilicate is probably the best, using only straight runs and 90' adapters to get the corners.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 22, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I'm using EK ZMT black now, nice tubing, didn't bother with clear as i don't use coloured water and don't need to see the fluid in the tubes.


I don't like clear soft tubing, neither coloured coolant.

This is what i like/use






Primochill Brilliant UV Blue.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 22, 2021)

Hi,
I like the octopus look of soft tubing I don't bother cutting it short as possible I like the extra slack if you disconnect tubing very much it's good to trim off the used end so you get a fresh connection reassembling.
It also allows me to move/ remove items like the reservoir out of the case to make room to do other things more easily
Of course QDC are an obvious joy to remove items without draining gpu/ cpu where ever one decides to connect a pair

Lots of clear tubing releases plaster after time the cost of cheap clear tubing that no manufacture advertises lol
This stuff from modmymods is pvc sold by the foot and I've been using it over a year and is pretty good they do say if you ask them it's non plaster
All I use now is clear concentrate fluids just redid all of my loops a few months ago.

ModMyMods 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD Flexible PVC Tubing - Crystal Clear (MOD-0003) - 3/8” ID x 5/8” OD Soft Tubing - Tubing ModMyMods.com - PC Watercooling Parts and Accessories


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## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> I like the octopus look of soft tubing I don't bother cutting it sort as possible I like the extra slack if you disconnect tubing very much it's good to trim off the used end so you get a fresh connection reassembling.
> It also allows me to move/ remove items like the reservoir out of the case to make room to do other things more easily
> Of course QDC are an obvious joy to remove items without draining gpu/ cpu where ever one decides to connect a pair
> ...


Plaster? You mean plasticizer?


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 22, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Plaster? You mean plasticizer?


Hi,
Settle for sludge lol



Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I think if i was going to use hard lines again, i would use glass or copper pipes. Didn't really like the acrylic either, so fucking brittle. imo the glass borosilicate is probably the best, using only straight runs and 90' adapters to get the corners.



Yeah copper would be a nice steampunk build


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## Bones (Sep 22, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> hi m8,
> 
> Nice bit of DIY, but, where's the cooling component of the loop = no radiator/fans ??


I quote myself:



Bones said:


> Still have some things to fix and refine but the basic concept of it's application works.


This wasn't done to illustrate a final "Product" either, was done to show the intital concept itself is viable enough it can work.
The rad is the next step and I'll need to make a way to safely (Enough) drain the system for maintenance and such.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

Bones said:


> I quote myself:
> 
> 
> This wasn't done to illustrate a final "Product" either, was done to show the intital concept itself is viable enough it can work.
> The rad is the next step and I'll need to make a way to safely (Enough) drain the system for maintenance and such.


You call this a "mini AIO" for RAM - where is the pump going? In/on the rad? RAM waterblocks aren't new after all, so I'm curious as to what the concept is here.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 22, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I don't like clear soft tubing, neither coloured coolant.
> 
> This is what i like/use
> 
> ...


Those come in a lot of different colors too.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 22, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Those come a lot of different colors.


I use just Blue


----------



## Bones (Sep 22, 2021)

Valantar said:


> You call this a "mini AIO" for RAM - where is the pump going? In/on the rad? RAM waterblocks aren't new after all, so I'm curious as to what the concept is here.


Who needs a rad when I'll be dumping ice directly into the res?
Yes, a rad can be added no prob and I do have plans for that later but that's not how I'll be running it at first. Besides, if using ice a rad induces heat instead of removing it like I'd want it to do in this case.
That's the plan here and those that know me "Get it".

And if that doesn't work out, again adding a rad is not a problem and it's even on the list of things to get done - Just not right away.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

Bones said:


> Who needs a rad when I'll be dumping ice directly into the res?
> Yes, a rad can be added no prob and I do have plans for that later but that's not how I'll be running it at first. Besides, if using ice a rad induces heat instead of removing it like I'd want it to do in this case.
> That's the plan here and those that know me "Get it".
> 
> And if that doesn't work out, again adding a rad is not a problem andntta's even on the list of things to get done - Just not right away.


Ah, that sounds interesting  Not quite what my mind goes to with the term AIO, but who cares? Sounds cool (pun definitely intended)!


----------



## Bones (Sep 22, 2021)

The "Block" of the setup are the heatspreaders on the sticks themselves so you can think of it as a CPU with it's waterblock permenantly attached, all you have to do is hook up the hoses/tubing.

And I just finished sealing up the sticks, no leaks from the system itself but the sticks were a different story - Leaks everywhere.
Nothing a liberal application of some Form-A-Gasket coudn't fix.

That's why for the application test I did have them on the board but no power was applied and even has the PSU unplugged and unhooked from it, that way any leaks woudn't do any harm to the system or even me.
It has to be tested in the situation it's going to run in at first for such issues to see if "Where it is" will cause any problems. This way I'll catch those, deal with them and try again which I will be doing shortly to see if all the leaks are now sealed.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Heat transmittance function is not up to debate.


Exactly. And that's the reason why different elements of a cooling loop operate at different temperatures. Because heat is transferred! It's not constant. 79 °C water would only be able to keep the temperature of an 80 °C CPU level if it wasn't a heat source. But it is. With your analogy, you'd only need to run your home heating water temperatures at 22 °C to have 21 °C air temp in the house.

A random question: have you ever owned an AIO or custom loop that could monitor its internal coolant temperature?


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Because heat is transferred! It's not constant.


It is constant, thermodynamics 1st. You mean entropy is not constant.



AusWolf said:


> With your analogy, you'd only need to run your home heating water temperatures at 22 °C to have 21 °C air temp in the house.


Depends on the 'home heating water' and 'the house'. Ever heard of the gulf stream?

You only need half the water mass to housing material, let's say rock, to keep the gradient 1 degree apart. I'm sure you can heat the water as fast as the ground can cool itself so long as they have the same heat capacity, like you said, in "Equilibrium". I'm basically calling air equal to the house since even a kg of air which is a metric cube has a third of the house's specific heat.

It would be a house of paper thin walls if you used 1kg of material to 1 m² floor space.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It is constant, thermodynamics 1st. You mean entropy is not constant.


Except that your CPU is a heat source. Contacting surfaces (that is copper and water) have to be significantly lower temperature to achieve any cooling effect. Equilibrium only lasts until you add more elements to the system, and that's what the CPU does: it constantly adds more heat.



mtcn77 said:


> Depends on the 'home heating water' and 'the house'. Ever heard of the gulf stream?


Do you have central heating at home? What temperature is your water running at in the winter?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It is constant, thermodynamics 1st. You mean entropy is not constant.


_Energy_ is constant, not heat. Heat is a form of energy, and can be converted to or from other forms of energy, as well as transferred. Heat, i.e. the thermal energy of a specific object at a given time, is not constant, as it will be part of a thermodynamic system with its surroundings, with a huge range of possible rates of transfer to and from other adjacent objects depending on various factors (thermal interfaces, contact area, IR emissivity, relative temperatures, etc.). If you fix the variables in a system - say, you have a specific cold plate, a completely fixed CPU load, a constant temperature of your incoming water - then yes, the temperature of your outgoing water will also be constant. But at what temperature? That depends on the incoming temperature, the thermal load, the heat transfer from silicon->IHS, the heat transfer from IHS->TIM->cold plate, and the thermal transfer from cold plate to water. Most of which will be different materials, with different properties. And this is for one setup - for another setup, every single variable is likely to change. Thus, assuming perfect and immediate thermal transfer is a really, really, really flawed assumption, as it is nowhere near reality, and thus isn't useful.



mtcn77 said:


> Depends on the 'home heating water' and 'the house'. Ever heard of the gulf stream?


The gulf stream raises the average temperatures of Western Europe by a decent amount, but ... relevance? You understand that the volumes of water - and thus the thermal energy they hold - in question are so vast as render any such comparison entirely ridiculous? I mean, sure, you _can_ bring your home air to 21°C with 22°C water - _if you flood your entire house with it and have a sufficient heat source to keep all that water at that temperature_. That is a ridiculous and unrealistic scenario, thus we aren't discussing it. Rather, your analogy (a 80°C CPU heating water in a water loop to 79°C) presupposes a sensible water loop of some kind, unless we're just spinning up unrealistic and uninteresting thought experiments here. And with such a system, what you are saying is impossible.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Contacting surfaces (that is copper and water) have to be significantly lower temperature


You can't have less temperature when zeroth law dictates otherwise.



Valantar said:


> And with such a system, what you are saying is impossible.


It is not impossible. You just failed to understand the level of thermal transmittance in 1°C gradient between copper-copper vs 0.1°C gradient between copper-water is equal.


AusWolf said:


> Equilibrium only lasts until you add more elements to the system


Equilibrium is always present. It just doesn't create more entropy when the temperatures are the same. Stop thinking you can alter physics.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You can't have less temperature when zeroth law dictates otherwise.
> 
> 
> It is not impossible. You just failed to understand the level of thermal transmittance in 1°C gradient between copper-copper vs 0.1°C gradient between copper-water is equal.
> ...


You still haven't answered 2 questions:
1. Have you ever owned an AIO water cooler or custom loop with the ability to monitor coolant temperatures?
2. If you have central heating, what temperature is your water temp at during colder months?

Since you brought physics in, don't forget about thermal conductivity and thermal mass.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> You can't have less temperature when zeroth law dictates otherwise.
> 
> It is not impossible. You just failed to understand the level of thermal transmittance in 1°C gradient between copper-copper vs 0.1°C gradient between copper-water is equal.
> 
> Equilibrium is always present. It just doesn't create more entropy when the temperatures are the same. Stop thinking you can alter physics.


You're way off the deep end here. To _reach_ the temperatures you claim (to maintain them you first need to reach them, after all) you need to dissipate sufficient thermal energy from your CPU to the water for it to heat up that much _without_ that energy being dissipated through the radiator. And a crucial factor here (which has been repeated many times before): thermal transfer increases in efficiency as thermal deltas increase. In other words, as your water heats up, it will absorb less heat from the CPU and dissipate more heat through the radiator. Which will _raise_ CPU temperatures (unless it throttles), meaning your CPU temperature will no longer be 80°C. For your equilibrium state to be reached - 80°C CPU, 79.8°C water - in a normal water loop, you'd need these factors:
a) A CPU that throttles at 80°C, and refuses to go higher, with a constant workload
b) ambient air at such a high temperature that it won't meaningfully absorb heat from the radiator despite the radiator _also_ necessarily being close to 80°C, as the water is that temperature and has a huge contact area with the radiator.
c) A sufficiently high output of thermal energy from the CPU even when throttled to maintain these temperatures over ambient losses (i.e. thermal transfer from the ambient air and into the rest of the PC, the walls, floor, ceiling, etc.).

This will never happen. These are not even remotely realistic conditions. Heat will always dissipate _somewhere_, and even a 250W CPU isn't sufficient to heat any meaningful amount of surrounding matter to 80°C and keep it there.



mtcn77 said:


> Equilibrium is always present.


Also, that sentence right there? Either you're speaking of scales so vast as to be entirely irrelevant in this context (as in "Earth's water cycle is in equilibrium"), or you just don't understand what you're saying. Maintaining any type of equilibrium of anything like temperature is _really_ _really hard_. Why do you think we've invented thermostats? They exist to do the work of creating thermal equilibrium (and they generally fail pretty badly!).


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> You still haven't answered 2 questions:
> 1. Have you ever owned an AIO water cooler or custom loop with the ability to monitor coolant temperatures?
> 2. If you have central heating, what temperature is your water temp at during colder months?
> 
> Since you brought physics in, don't forget about thermal conductivity and thermal mass.


It is funny when you repeat back what should have been replies to my questions.
Not talking about central heating. Get underfloor heating, let the heating water reservoir be half the weight of the solid housing foundation. You can easily drop the air temperature to less than a single degree apart since the air mass won't be more than a third of the house(being very modest, nothing fancy).
I think churchill had a saying about those who tried to turn intelligent people from their cause.



Valantar said:


> Heat will always dissipate _somewhere_


In a shape which easily fulfills the 1st law. You can't make an argument that energy is an uncountable.



Valantar said:


> Maintaining any type of equilibrium of anything like temperature is _really_ _really hard_.


That is not hard. You just haven't got a confinement. If you had, the only heat function would be at the perimeter.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 22, 2021)

Valantar said:


> You're way off the deep end here. To _reach_ the temperatures you claim (to maintain them you first need to reach them, after all) you need to dissipate sufficient thermal energy from your CPU to the water for it to heat up that much _without_ that energy being dissipated through the radiator. And a crucial factor here (which has been repeated many times before): thermal transfer increases in efficiency as thermal deltas increase. In other words, as your water heats up, it will absorb less heat from the CPU and dissipate more heat through the radiator. Which will _raise_ CPU temperatures (unless it throttles), meaning your CPU temperature will no longer be 80°C. For your equilibrium state to be reached - 80°C CPU, 79.8°C water - in a normal water loop, you'd need these factors:
> a) A CPU that throttles at 80°C, and refuses to go higher, with a constant workload
> b) ambient air at such a high temperature that it won't meaningfully absorb heat from the radiator despite the radiator _also_ necessarily being close to 80°C, as the water is that temperature and has a huge contact area with the radiator.
> c) A sufficiently high output of thermal energy from the CPU even when throttled to maintain these temperatures over ambient losses (i.e. thermal transfer from the ambient air and into the rest of the PC, the walls, floor, ceiling, etc.).
> ...


I think a CPU that dissipates around 1 W of heat in a 78 °C room would be sufficient to keep your water temp at 79 °C and the CPU itself at 80 °C. 



mtcn77 said:


> It is funny when you repeat back what should have been replies to my questions.
> Not talking about central heating. Get underfloor heating, let the heating water reservoir be half the weight of the solid housing foundation. You can easily drop the air temperature to less than a single degree apart since the air mass won't be more than a third of the house(being very modest, nothing fancy).
> I think churchill had a saying about those who tried to turn intelligent people from their cause.


What questions? You only brought up some random laws of physics that aren't relevant without considering 1. Thermal mass, 2. Thermal conductivity, and 3. The fact that the CPU is a heat source. It is not designed to be at equilibrium with coolant temps. If it was, it wouldn't need cooling at all.

Instead, you've been evading my questions, but let me answer:
1. My Corsair H100i can monitor its coolant temperature. It needs to be in the low 40s for the CPU to be at around a comfortable 70-75 degrees. A 45 °C coolant temp allows the CPU to approach 80 °C.
2. Water in central heating is usually at around 60 °C. Near room temperature radiators would only be able to maintain room temperature in a completely thermally insulated room.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 22, 2021)

This thread is getting ridiculous. There is no war, never was. Water for those who care and air for all others.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 22, 2021)

You guys are nerds


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> My Corsair H100i can monitor its coolant temperature


It also has 100ml carrier fluid only.



freeagent said:


> You guys are nerds


I consider myself practical.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It also has 100ml carrier fluid only.


When it was new.. how much is left


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

freeagent said:


> When it was new.. how much is left


See, it is really stupid making these anectodal arguments. Let me make my generalizations in peace fellows. I don't really aim at every exception when I framework my concepts.

PS: 100i does not have enough water to equalise the specific heat capacity of its radiator metal, if it really starts going.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 22, 2021)

thesmokingman said:


> This thread is getting ridiculous. There is no war,


I find it interesting.
I keep reading, laughing and learning.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It also has 100ml carrier fluid only.


How much fluid does the cooling system in your 78-80 °C example have?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Let me make my generalizations in peace fellows. I don't really aim at every exception when I framework my concepts.


Why would we? This is a thread about comparing and discussing water cooling vs. air cooling. Yet you respond to this discussion wanting to discuss absurdly unrealistic scenarios that will never, ever take place in any computer, in order to ... reiterate that physics exists? Why should we "allow you to make your generalizations in peace" when they are actively derailing what was previously an interesting discussion? Also, this is a flat out lie: you brought this up as a comment on me saying I regularly saw 80°C CPU temperatures, as if it was relevant to this scenario, commenting that this was detrimental to loop life and would kill my system. And ever since being confronted with your misreading, you've been dodging this, constantly shifting the goal posts rather than admit the simple fact that you misunderstood what was said. You've been leading us on a long, wild goose chase with your ever more out there conditions for not being wrong, but the ultimate fact of this offshoot of the discussion is exactly that: you were wrong. Period. Please have the integrity to admit as much and let us all move on.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> See, it is really stupid making these anectodal arguments


I see you’ve never ran one before? Nothing lasts forever.. especially those.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Why would we? This is a thread about comparing and discussing water cooling vs. air cooling. Yet you respond to this discussion wanting to discuss absurdly unrealistic scenarios that will never, ever take place in any computer, in order to ... reiterate that physics exists? Why should we "allow you to make your generalizations in peace" when they are actively derailing what was previously an interesting discussion? Also, this is a flat out lie: you brought this up as a comment on me saying I regularly saw 80°C CPU temperatures, as if it was relevant to this scenario, commenting that this was detrimental to loop life and would kill my system. And ever since being confronted with your misreading, you've been dodging this, constantly shifting the goal posts rather than admit the simple fact that you misunderstood what was said. You've been leading us on a long, wild goose chase with your ever more out there conditions for not being wrong, but the ultimate fact of this offshoot of the discussion is exactly that: you were wrong. Period. Please have the integrity to admit as much and let us all move on.


I'm not erroneous when your pc is inefficient and your cooling cannot conduct your cpu's heat. Maybe work on your arguments' factual basis a little more. It is really pathetic when you try to bring us down to your unideal, ungeneralizable, pretty unrepresentative case. It is no wonder you guys get hives when I mention liquid metal because you are hurt to hear your pc doesn't work all that well and try to guilt trip me when I just don't care you couldn't project your defiance of reason unto me. I could care enough already.



AusWolf said:


> How much fluid does the cooling system in your 78-80 °C example have?


I said specific heat. Work it out yourself, but do know heat formula include s⁻¹, so for every second it takes to circulate between the coldplate and the radiator, if you 'think' you can work out a faster solution, I wouldn't think the pump would allow pumping the fluid at half the time(provided the ideal is already a 2 second loop time which is why I insist having enough specific heat in the carrier fluid is more important than trying to ferry more fluid, demanding more pressure than flow out of the pump head).


----------



## Valantar (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I'm not erroneous when your pc is inefficient and your cooling cannot conduct your cpu's heat. Maybe work on your arguments' factual basis a little more. It is really pathetic when you try to bring us down to your unideal, ungeneralizable, pretty unrepresentative case. It is no wonfer you guys get hives when I mention liquid metal because you are hurt to hear your pc doesn't work all that well and try to guilt trip me when I just don't care you couldn't project your defiance of reason unto me. I could care enough already.


Oh, man, this is hilarious. I wrote quite clearly that my water block is sub-optimal, didn't I? That doesn't take away from the fact that there is no such thing as a perfect water block - none of them are perfect. Thus, arguing or reasoning from that basis is flawed. The factual basis of my arguments has consistently been real-world scenarios. You, on the other hand, insist on generalizing to the absurd, with thermally insulated cooling systems(!?!?) and assumptions of perfect thermal transfer. Who here then has a flawed basis for their arguments? Last I checked, reality is pretty messy and variable.

Also, we don't get hives when you mention liquid metal, we called you out on your absurd insistence on unequal testing conditions for various types of cooler, which you argued would somehow be more "fair"? Your arguments are absurd, your reasoning is absurd, and your scenarios are unrealistic to an absurd level. None of this is relevant to the topic, nor interesting to anyone actually interested in computers.


----------



## mtcn77 (Sep 22, 2021)

Valantar said:


> none of them are perfect.


Then don't come and try to make mainstream arguments when people use water coolers to make them perfect. You are really in conflict, but try to project it. Which won't work when you cannot hide the flaw in your overconfidence in contrast with your incompetence. Either be good, or don't try to argue people out of making good points.



Valantar said:


> reality is pretty messy


Not when it comes to thermodynamics, then it is as clear as 1-2-3. It is all rationally ordinal, to the unfortunate dismay of yours.

Still haven't managed to hide the facts. You aren't the sample size, quit making self references.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> Then don't come and try to make mainstream arguments when people use water coolers to make them perfect. You are really in conflict, but try to project it. Which won't work when you cannot hide the flaw in your overconfidence in contrast with your incompetence. Either be good, or don't try to argue people out of making good points.
> 
> 
> Not when it comes to thermodynamics, then it is as clear as 1-2-3. It is all rationally ordinal, to the unfortunate dismay of yours.
> ...



Do you have a water loop currently? have you ever had? if so show it, fill in your specs. I think you are just trolling this thread, and have pretty much come into it and had a shit. It's supposed to be water cooling fans discussing water loops vs air cooling and all it covers, not whatever you keep blathering on about. show your loop or if you don't even have one, what?


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 22, 2021)

It's like Bill Version 2.0.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 22, 2021)

Kids nowadays


----------



## Fangio1951 (Sep 22, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Kids nowadays


FWIW, here's mine =







mtcn77 = where's yours ???


----------



## freeagent (Sep 22, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> mtcn77 = where's yours ???


*Crickets Chirping*

I am curious to what he is running too.

If its just a stock cooler.. 

Lots of theory being tossed around, Everything we say is wrong so..


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 22, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> It also has 100ml carrier fluid only.





freeagent said:


> When it was new.. how much is left


Hi,
Well 100ml isn't a lot so where does this number and term "carrier fluid" come from ?


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 22, 2021)

My res is tiny, but my temps are fine.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 22, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Well 100ml isn't a lot so where does this number and term "carrier fluid" come from ?


I know I have an ultra light H100 with less than that in it 

Tomorrow is my Friday so I will take a snip and drain what I can into a measuring cup. If it has 50ml I will be mighty impressed. It couldn't cool my brothers stock 7700K after my X5690 was done with it.


----------



## Dinnercore (Sep 23, 2021)

After skimming through this thread, I want to adress two things people fear about watercooling. Maintenance and pump failure.

I'm a lazy person, but I build projects frequently. So I never clean a loop but leave it running until it gets taken apart for a new one. My oldest loop currently is ~2 years old and has never been drained or cleaned. Its doing just fine.
I do not use any fancy colors tho, just plain deionized water with a drop of biocide and a drop of corrosion inhibitor. 

Second thing, pump failures. Has anyone in here with a custom loop every experienced a pump failure? If so, what kind of pump did you use?

I own and use 5 pumps. 3x Eheim aquarium pumps and 2x D5 Varios. Currently 4 of those are powering three separate loops on my main PC. All of them are running 24/7, even when the PC is off. I modded the Eheims to be silent by fixing the impeller on the shaft with teflon tape. They are inaudible at 50cm distance even with the PC powered off.
They are with me for nearly 4 years now, no failures.

As I see it, a pump failure is as unlikely as a fan-failure. And I'm not sure on which part the risk for your components is bigger, since on air coolers with a single fan it just fails and slowly climbs in temperature and stays below the thermal shut-down trigger for a longer period of time. Like a failed air cooler will bake your CPU at 10X°C for a couple minutes in the worst case, while with a watercooling block and a failed pump it ramps in a few seconds and shuts down quickly.


----------



## Fangio1951 (Sep 23, 2021)

Dinnercore said:


> After skimming through this thread, I want to adress two things people fear about watercooling. Maintenance and pump failure.
> 
> I'm a lazy person, but I build projects frequently. So I never clean a loop but leave it running until it gets taken apart for a new one. My oldest loop currently is ~2 years old and has never been drained or cleaned. Its doing just fine.
> I do not use any fancy colors tho, just plain deionized water with a drop of biocide and a drop of corrosion inhibitor.
> ...


Second thing, pump failures. Has anyone in here with a custom loop every experienced a pump failure?

My D5 has been running no stop since Dec 2017, which is in my current system picture above, and no failure.

Th only thing that has failed were the original fans on my radiator.


----------



## ThrashZone (Sep 23, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I know I have an ultra light H100 with less than that in it
> 
> Tomorrow is my Friday so I will take a snip and drain what I can into a measuring cup. If it has 50ml I will be mighty impressed. It couldn't cool my brothers stock 7700K after my X5690 was done with it.


Hi,
100ml is hair more than a shot glass though so that can't be right lol


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 23, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> Second thing, pump failures. Has anyone in here with a custom loop every experienced a pump failure?
> 
> My D5 has been running no stop since Dec 2017, which is in my current system picture above, and no failure.
> 
> Th only thing that has failed were the original fans on my radiator.


Not personally but I've had a pump in a rig built for someone else die. In that case it was failure due to neglect.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

Has anyone had any experience using a aquarium chiller alongside their custom loop? Ambient temperatures where I live feel like the surface of the sun on times. I don't tend to use my system when it's super hot but that sucks because all I want to do is hide indoors from the heat.


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Has anyone had any experience using a aquarium chiller alongside their custom loop?


Me and few others in this Forum


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## Fangio1951 (Sep 23, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Me and few others in this Forum


hi Firefox,

Ok, spill the beans m8......Pros/Cons, etc would be nice

regards


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> hi Firefox,
> 
> Ok, spill the beans m8......Pros/Cons, etc would be nice
> 
> regards


I feel like i am spamming, this pic you can find it everywhere in this Forum 





Btw, there's no cons, just pros, at least for me worked that way.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I feel like i am spamming, this pic you can find it everywhere in this Forum
> 
> View attachment 217932
> 
> Btw, there's no cons, just pros, at least for me worked that way.


Any requirements as far as pump, or aquarium chiller apart from it being a copper system? My build is intended to be portable as I will be flying with it a few times a year. The chiller would be kept here in Thailand and I'd just use two quick releases  and a valve between so I can use the loop without it.


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Any requirements as far as pump,


Nope.
I use this: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/lian-li-pc-v3000wx-big-tower.248041/post-3913213


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

FireFox said:


> Nope.
> I use this: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/lian-li-pc-v3000wx-big-tower.248041/post-3913213


So this will be ok or am I better off getting the blank version and using an alternative pump?https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-quantum-kinetic-flt-80-ddc-pwm-d-rgb-plexi


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> So this will be ok or am I better off getting the blank version and using an alternative pump?https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-quantum-kinetic-flt-80-ddc-pwm-d-rgb-plexi


Never had issues running the D5, it does the job, of course up to you which pump you want to buy.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

I have used DDC before inc a 3.25 and still find the D5 better. I prefer the vario as i can use 5 for bleeding air and 3 for everyday, plus you can turn it higher if your loop needs more oomph. mine is silent.


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## xtreemchaos (Sep 23, 2021)

i think this is my fav thread ever its been very interesting, funny and full of great imfo it would be good to have pinned.
now pumps not working ive seen a few over the years and mostly its not the pumps fault thay get clogged up with sludge from fluids and just stop pumping dcc pumps are the worse D5s seam to be much stronger but sometimes thay stop too, years ago we used fishtank pumps and the shaft on which the impeller rotates would give up and it would rattle a give a warning but today they iver stop or go. if i was going to run a loop nower days 24/7 id deff have two pumps.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

The problem with me using a d5 is the clearance I intend to rotate the Res 90° and have the fittings at the top with the acrylic almost touching the side panel on some sort of bracket I will need to fabricate, which would place the pump almost directly above the Cpu block so DDC seemed to be the better choice as my case is so slim. Maybe I'm over thinking things and could just add a secondary d5 to the aquarium chiller.


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> I prefer the vario as i can use 5 for bleeding air and 3 for everyday


I wanted to buy this Vario but after i watched Roman aka (der8auer) video i changed my mind.





xtreemchaos said:


> if i was going to run a loop nower days 24/7 id deff have two pumps


That is what i have been thinking the whole time, for someone that run a PC 24/7 a second pump is worth, that is why i think that i would just waste money adding a second pump to my loop.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I wanted to buy this Vario but after i watched Roman aka (der8auer) video i changed my mind.
> 
> View attachment 217956
> 
> ...



Video is in German, no good to me, but thx anyway. Isn't a 655 essentially a D5?


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Isn't a 655 essentially a D5?


Yea it's.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

The D5 is good enough for me, even if the DDC is supposedly better, i always found they didn't have enough oomph.


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> The D5 is good enough for me, even if the DDC is supposedly better, i always found they didn't have enough oomph.


I've always found d5's to be more reliable but since I've got into sff every mm counts and DDC are just that much smaller.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> I've always found d5's to be more reliable but since I've got into sff every mm counts and DDC are just that much smaller.



The D5 is big, if it's too big there's a DDC. I'm only using mATX but the D5 fits in, else I would have used a DDC. My vario take some seconds to start but it always does, was worried it was failing, but seems ok.


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## AusWolf (Sep 23, 2021)

mtcn77 said:


> I said specific heat. Work it out yourself, but do know heat formula include s⁻¹, so for every second it takes to circulate between the coldplate and the radiator, if you 'think' you can work out a faster solution, I wouldn't think the pump would allow pumping the fluid at half the time(provided the ideal is already a 2 second loop time which is why I insist having enough specific heat in the carrier fluid is more important than trying to ferry more fluid, demanding more pressure than flow out of the pump head).


You still haven't answered my question.

I'm not interested in working anything out with formulae, as it adds no value to the discussion. I may not know much about thermodynamics, but I know a thing or two about how an air / AIO water cooler works, including the fact that a ~30-35 °C delta between CPU and coolant temperatures with a 150+ W TDP CPU under 100% load is pretty normal. The reason being:



Valantar said:


> there is no such thing as a perfect water block


This.

@mtcn77 : If you imagine perfect heat transfer between the 80 °C CPU - IHS - waterblock, then an 80 °C coolant isn't unthinkable. But then you'd also want perfect heat transfer between the radiator and your 21 °C room, so are we dealing with a 21 °C cooling system and consequently, a 21 °C CPU then? Or is it more like 80 °C on the CPU's outbound side of the loop and 21 °C on the inbound side? If you show me an actual AIO model that achieves this, I'll buy it right away.



mtcn77 said:


> I'm not erroneous when your pc is inefficient and your cooling cannot conduct your cpu's heat.


Allow me a small adjustment: his cooling cannot conduct *all* of his CPU's heat. Neither can mine. Neither can yours, in fact. Until you find a material with infinite thermal conductivity, this will be the case. The purpose of computer component cooling is to conduct *enough* heat for said components to remain in their operational temperature range. Does his cooling setup achieve that? Yes. So what's the problem?


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> The D5 is good enough for me,


Same here.
The D5 VPP655 pump i am using in my current build i recycled it from a res/pump combo i bought in 2016








						What's your latest tech purchase?
					

That's a big PSU




					www.techpowerup.com
				




December this year the pump is 5 years old and still works smoothly.

In this thread from 2015








						[FS][EU] - [FS][EU]Selling my Main Machine Components.
					

I am selling my  Main Machine's components because i am planning  to build a new Machine.      2 X EVGA GeForce GTX 770 Superclocked with ACX Cooler 4 GB GDDR5 256-Bit Dual-Link DVI-I/DVI-D HDMI DP SLI Ready Graphics Card 04G-P4-3774-KR 500€  ( Sold) ( The originals Coolers + an Evga SLI adapter...




					www.techpowerup.com
				



you can see from the list of hardware/components i was selling that i owned a VPP655 that was already 2 years old, i sold that pump to a Techpowerup member.


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## Valantar (Sep 23, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> I mean, unless you have a lot of money, I don't see why anyone would get anything other than a Vetroo V5 CPU cooler for $25 shipped. It literally beats a Noctua D15 in temps if you set a slightly aggressive fan profile... but even then its not all that bad sound wise. also it comes with extra bracket if you have a spare fan to do push/pull with.  most people have an extra fan these days.
> 
> jayz2cents has it cooling a 5900x at like under 63 celsius... and that's stock, no fan curve...  for $25 its literally insane how good it is.  add in two fans in push/pull which is basically free to do, and add a slightly aggressive fan curve, and you are matching 360mm AIO $180 water coolers... again if you have a lot of money and want your build to look a certain way, by all means go all out, but I'm glad I spent the $25 on the V5. I might even talk my dad into upgrading his Ryzen gen 1 APU to a 5xxx series APU and replace stock cooler with the V5. would be a nice bump in performance for him, even though he really doesn't need it.
> 
> watch at 15 mins in:  its actually a lower temp than an AIO water cooler... $25...


GN just took a look at that cooler, and ... well, there must have been something off with Jay's test setup. My guess (based on GN pointing out how easy this is) is a bad mount on the Fractal AIO used for comparison.








Tl;dw: the Vetroo fails at 200W noise normalized (expected with a 150W rating, so no issue there), barely scrapes by at 200W at full fan speed (but is noisy), falls way behind at 125W noise normalized, is 3rd worst at 125W 100% fan, but does quite admirably at a 65W load, just two degrees behind the Noctua NH-U12S Redux. Definitely nowhere close to beating a 240mm AIO though.


Bones said:


> The "Block" of the setup are the heatspreaders on the sticks themselves so you can think of it as a CPU with it's waterblock permenantly attached, all you have to do is hook up the hoses/tubing.
> 
> And I just finished sealing up the sticks, no leaks from the system itself but the sticks were a different story - Leaks everywhere.
> Nothing a liberal application of some Form-A-Gasket coudn't fix.
> ...


Did you make your own RAM water blocks? That's pretty neat, but is there any particular reason you didn't go for one of the off-the-shelf options available?



mtcn77 said:


> Then don't come and try to make mainstream arguments when people use water coolers to make them perfect. You are really in conflict, but try to project it. Which won't work when you cannot hide the flaw in your overconfidence in contrast with your incompetence. Either be good, or don't try to argue people out of making good points.


Damn, man, way to go on the offensive when people criticize your arguments. How about actually presenting some actual on-topic arguments instead? This is just a list of insults and attempts at dodning criticism.


mtcn77 said:


> Not when it comes to thermodynamics, then it is as clear as 1-2-3. It is all rationally ordinal, to the unfortunate dismay of yours.


Sorry, but thermodynamics is _extremely_ messy. There's a reason literally every company doing something where this is relevant has engineers dedicated to thermal modelling, and spend huge resources on things like computational flow dynamics modelling. Thermodynamics in a real-world setting is _extremely_ complex, as there are far, far too many variables in play in any given scenario. Sure, for some things you can eliminate variables to such a degree that you can get all the way back to applying the base equations to find your answers. But in most cases? Not even close.


mtcn77 said:


> Still haven't managed to hide the facts. You aren't the sample size, quit making self references.


Which facts? What am I hiding? I'm just saying that your ridiculously unrealistic scenarios are completely irrelevant to a discussion of PC cooling. You're doing nothing but moving the goal posts every time your arguments are countered, going further and further into the realm of absurdity. Here's a rough summary of our discussion so far:

Me: My CPU runs at 80°, and I have a water loop.
You: 80° loop temperatures will kill your system
Me: I never said my loop was 80°, but that my CPU is.
You: But with an 80° CPU you can have 78.9° fluid
Me+others: eh ... that's not going to happen, the radiator will cool the fluid down, and you don't have perfect thermal transfer from your CPU to your liuqid.
You: but you can insulate your cooling system!
The entire world: ????
You: If you insulate your PC from the outside world you can eliminate all annoying variables, and thus we're back to thermodynamics.
Us: ... but PCs aren't insulated? They tend to be in rooms that are well below 80°C. How is this relevant?
You: You don't understand science!

And that's where we are right now.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that you, instead of just admitting that you misread the initial statement, have been working very, very hard at shifting the goal posts further and further in order to avoid admitting that you made an incredibly small and inconsequential mistake. Instead of saying "oops, I misread that, lol", you've been digging yourself ever further into a hole of implausible (and impossible) scenarios in order to prove that the thing you said was somehow actually right all along (despite the fact that it never was, and indeed never was applicable to the thing you responded to in the first place). It's clear that you're so invested in never, ever admitting even the smallest mistake that you're willing to follow this whereever it goes. The problem is, people here will keep calling you out on your nonsense. I suggest you take a step back and reconsider your plan going forward.

At this point you're arguing that there is such a thing as a CPU block with perfect thermal transfer (which conveniently sidesteps things like materials science, surface area, thermal density of the CPU, and more - in other words, there is no such thing, there _can't_ be, because of physics), and that there are somehow conditions in which you could maintain a 78.9-degree liquid temperature with an 80-degree CPU (but conveniently forgetting that the entire premise for this discussion is that this is supposed to be about cooling actual, working PCs - in which case said scenario would be impossible).


ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> 100ml is hair more than a shot glass though so that can't be right lol


Last I checked shot glasses are 40ml? So 100ml is 2.5 shot glasses


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

Like i said, shitting in this thread


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

Sorry but I just realized something....didn't my question about aquarium chillers destroy this debate? 

Surely adding a chiller to a custom loop greatly lowers temps compared to ambient air therefore cannot be beaten? That's what my desire is anyway it's winter here ATM and ambient temps float around 30°c which isn't too bad but summer is generally 40+ sometimes 50+ with Ambient temps that high no cooling solutions work that well so the addition of a chiller which can only work with a custom loop.

Though thinking about it I've also come to the conclusion that this is another confrontation thread and cooling is purely based on preference and environment.

My tower cooler works better than your custom loop.... Yes but you live in Norway and it's minus 50 I live in the tropics where it's plus 50.... Catch my drift?


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## Valantar (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Sorry but I just realized something....didn't my question about aquarium chillers destroy this debate?
> 
> Surely adding a chiller to a custom loop greatly lowers temps compared to ambient air therefore cannot be beaten? That's what my desire is anyway it's winter here ATM and ambient temps float around 30°c which isn't too bad but summer is generally 40+ sometimes 50+ with Ambient temps that high no cooling solutions work that well so the addition of a chiller which can only work with a custom loop.
> 
> ...


Well, chillers and other sub-ambient cooling systems have their own drawbacks, from power consumption, size and noise to the ever-problematic condensation issue. EK/CM/Intel's recent peltier+water setup attemtps to sidestep this (by automatically staying _just_ above the dew point, thus not causing condensation) but still consumes 100-200W in order to function. That's more than half of most gaming PCs. Chillers aren't exactly efficient either. But they definitely work!

IMO, that's part of the fun of the discussion - what are the conditions you're starting from, and how are you adapting to them? What is the rationale behind your choices? That's where the interesting stuff comes from IMO.

Also, this thread was started precisely because this discussion arose (for the millionth time, as the title suggests) in the tech purchase thread, so yes, it is indeed a thread about arguing for your choices and preferences. Not necessarily confrontation though - that's hardly productive (though at times its necessary when people start actively derailing the debate).


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 23, 2021)

Ok now you have me worried about condensation......


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## maxfly (Sep 23, 2021)

I use both regularly. Custom water for my own rigs almost exclusively. Air for client rigs. I used to build wced rigs for people but most are utterly lazy and ive learned that i really don't like cleaning up after other people. Particularly when ive left them very easy, very specific directions to follow, with which to keep their loops clean and functioning properly.
So air it is, unless on the rare occasion, they're someone that shows a modicum of understanding and motivation.
Aio or clcs have never been something that drew my attention. I figure if im going to put a rad and pump in a case they will be ones that i choose. Settling for anything proprietary seems blasphemous to my old school way of thinking lol.


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## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Chillers aren't exactly efficient either.


What's your point?


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## ThrashZone (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Ok now you have me worried about condensation......


Hi,
Know your dew point and stay above it with your fluid


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Know your dew point and stay above it with your fluid
> View attachment 218000



Wouldn't the dew point be different indoors where the air temp is higher(usually)


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## ThrashZone (Sep 23, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Wouldn't the dew point be different indoors where the air temp is higher(usually)


Hi,
Not really sure but I do know even at 48df as that image states that's just under 9c where as my room temp 25.5c and water is about 28c 
I'd have to take 9c water seriously


----------



## Valantar (Sep 23, 2021)

FireFox said:


> What's your point?


That everything has drawbacks 


Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Wouldn't the dew point be different indoors where the air temp is higher(usually)


Yep. The dew point depends on the specific temperature and relative humidity where the PC is located.


ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Not really sure but I do know even at 48df as that image states that's just under 9c where as my room temp 25.5c and water is about 28c
> I'd have to take 9c water seriously


If your indoor temperature is higher than the outdoor temperature, then the dew point is likely higher as well. Regular water cooling will never go below ambient though (that's physically impossible), so no worries there.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Ok now you have me worried about condensation......


i set my chiller to keep the water temp 5c above the dew point, 0 issues



Valantar said:


> That everything has drawbacks


I would like you to mention it


----------



## Valantar (Sep 23, 2021)

ThaiTaffy said:


> Ok now you have me worried about condensation......


If you're in the tropics and using sub-ambient cooling, you need to be worried about condensation. Well, anyone using that needs to, really, but the hotter and more humid your ambient air the higher your dew point.
If your ambient is 20°C and 50% relative humidity, your dew point is 9°C.
20°C/90% RH = 18°C
30°C/50% RH = 19°C
30°C/90% RH = 29°C
35°C/50% RH = 23°C
etc., etc. Calculator here. Remember that indoor environments are nearly always less humid than outdoor ones (as houses tend to be built to not encourage mold and rot), and indoor and outdoor temperatures are also often very different. The only relevant measurement for avoiding condensation in a PC is one taken directly next to it, or at a minimum in the same room. Adding a decent safety margin on top of that is recommended, as no measurement is perfect.



FireFox said:


> I would like you to mention it


I was specifically responding to someone arguing "well, both water and air are beaten by a chiller", which was presented as if it had no drawbacks or inconveniences attached to it. The context ought to be pretty clear IMO.

Edit: also, literally the first sentence in my response that you quoted:


			
				Valantar said:
			
		

> Well, chillers and other sub-ambient cooling systems have their own drawbacks


... so I did mention it? Quite specifically?


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 23, 2021)

Fangio1951 said:


> Second thing, pump failures. Has anyone in here with a custom loop every experienced a pump failure?
> 
> My D5 has been running no stop since Dec 2017, which is in my current system picture above, and no failure.
> 
> Th only thing that has failed were the original fans on my radiator.


Only on a cheap pump given free with my Tt, Kandalf, but it did do 3 years and I likely funguessed it to death or boiled it or something as I recall a few kettle type scenarios.

Never make your own shit reservoir out of random ally boxes tut.


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## maxfly (Sep 23, 2021)

Ah pump failures. I've had several ddcs of all types go belly up over the years.
 A koolance submersible pump back when i first started wcing didn't actually die but the acrylic housing cracked leaving it useless and most recently an alphacool ddc 310. 
So nothing i build uses a single pump anymore.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 23, 2021)

maxfly said:


> Ah pump failures. I've had several ddcs of all types go belly up over the years.
> A koolance submersible pump back when i first started wcing didn't actually die but the acrylic housing cracked leaving it useless and most recently an alphacool ddc 310.
> So nothing i build uses a single pump anymore.



Does a double pump not mean double flow? in any case, i cannot fit 2 pumps in mine.


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## ThrashZone (Sep 24, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Does a double pump not mean double flow? in any case, i cannot fit 2 pumps in mine.


Hi,
No.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 24, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> Does a double pump not mean double flow? in any case, i cannot fit 2 pumps in mine.



It can mean alot more pressure. I generally run my ddcs at less than half speed or the noise from the water blasting through the tubes and res is way to loud. Not to mention its almost impossible to bleed most normal sized loops with dual 3.2s at full speed. The head pressure is just to much.
With the d5s in my main rig i can run them at full speed with no problems. Its nice and quiet. I actually need to run them at full speed to bleed the loop.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 24, 2021)

maxfly said:


> It can mean alot more pressure. I generally run my ddcs at less than half speed or the noise from the water blasting through the tubes and res is way to loud. Not to mention its almost impossible to bleed most normal sized loops with dual 3.2s at full speed. The head pressure is just to much.
> With the d5s in my main rig i can run them at full speed with no problems. Its nice and quiet. I actually need to run them at full speed to bleed the loop.


When I ran dual/triple 35x I had something like 3000mm of radiator and it was still kind of hard to fill and bleed because realistically, your res is only so big. What I would do is put a fitting on the res top, tube from that to a gallon jug as my fill funnel. That provided enough reserve fluid so it would not suck dry so fast but the flip side it's a pain in the ass to do logistically. Oh the old days of quad gpu blocks...


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## Bones (Sep 25, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Did you make your own RAM water blocks?


The "Blocks" are the heatspreaders that came with the sticks - I CAN make such if I had the right materials to do it with but I don't.



Valantar said:


> That's pretty neat, but is there any particular reason you didn't go for one of the off-the-shelf options available?


What's pre-made is that and not really designed for what I'm doing, related to that I can spec it to how I want it to be and go from there.
And there is the fact sometimes I get bored and just have to do something, this was one of those times; It helps I like making stuff, solving the problems in how to make it work and then to make it work well.

And obviously it does work:
Bones`s SuperPi - 32M score: 11min 51sec 703ms with a Phenom II X3 720 BE
The pic of the setup is included in the entry and you can see the clockspeeds, timings ran and so on.


----------



## FireFox (Sep 28, 2021)

I didn't know that EKWB had a shipping service to the past


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## ThaiTaffy (Sep 28, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I didn't know that EKWB had a shipping service to the past
> 
> 
> View attachment 218541


I've been waiting for my pump/Res combo for 594 years


----------

