# Windows 11 a Flop, Survey Claims Less Than 1% Upgraded, Microsoft Improves Start Menu



## btarunr (Dec 3, 2021)

Microsoft Windows 11, now nearing its third month since release, is for all intents and purposes, a flop. Market research by Lansweeper, which surveyed over 10 million PCs across the commercial and personal market segments, reports that less than 0.21% of the users it surveyed, had upgraded from Windows 10 to the newer operating system. The upgrade is free of charge. There may be several factors contributing to this lukewarm market response, but one of them is certain to he the steep hardware requirements. Windows 11 requires a trusted platform module (TPM 2.0), which disqualifies PCs older than 2018 for upgrades, unless the user is willing to try out workarounds to the limitation. Another factor could be the clunky user interface (UI), a less functional Start menu than Windows 10, and several UI-related bugs.

According to Lansweeper's data, there could be more people running outdated Windows XP, Vista, Windows 8, etc., than Windows 11, and this poses a great security risk, as these operating systems are no longer supported by Microsoft for regular security updates. Windows 10, on the other hand, is eligible for them until mid-2025—plenty of time for people to upgrade hardware to meet Windows 11 system requirements, or to simply make up their mind on switching over to the new operating system. In related news, Microsoft could give the Windows 11 Start menu a functional update. Test build 22509 introduces the ability to add more pins to the menu, or make room for more recommendations. The UI could see many such minor updates.





*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## Caring1 (Dec 3, 2021)

I like having the control panel still, but Microsoft is intent on removing it with W11.


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## HD64G (Dec 3, 2021)

Since most of the CPU owners able to upgrade have Zen arch CPUs and MS messed the CPU scheduler for those CPUs, it fairly backfired heavily.


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## wheresmycar (Dec 3, 2021)

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.... I love the traditional UI functionality. Makes no sense to swap things around. I haven't even looked into the technical/compatibility aspects yet. The UI was enough to keep me on Win 10.

They should of kept the top layer the same (esp. Start menu and task bar). Too many changes in an already life-long (so it seems) functional work environment is more of a discouragement IMO.

Anyway the rest is down to reviewer feedback. Im a late jumper. Much like battlefield 2042....wait a little longer for a more polished up package and u might just get your moneys worth from the get go (no win 11 isn't free, its costing that sacred start menu and task bar familiarity - who knows what else?)


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## Selaya (Dec 3, 2021)

The tradition of the bust release inbetween good ones continues. Given the past track record, this doesn't surprise me at all.


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## Frank_100 (Dec 3, 2021)

Microsoft desktop should be a standard like KDE or Gnome.  

I don't believe they understand the damage they do to their brand.



HD64G said:


> Since most of the CPU owners able to upgrade have Zen arch CPUs and MS messed the CPU scheduler for those CPUs, it fairly backfired heavily.


I have a 5950 X machine for music production(fun) and a 7900X machine for numerical math(work).

Neither machine meets the windows 11 specks.


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## LabRat 891 (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 11 is basically Windows 10.1, ala Win8-8.1.
I don't recall either 8 or 8.1 being well liked or popular. 
When I worked retail tech in the 8-8.1 era, almost every new PC customer wanted Windows 7; some even paid us to 'downgrade' their purchase to Windows 7. 
It really doesn't surprise me that 11 is a non-starter.


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## HD64G (Dec 3, 2021)

Frank_100 said:


> Microsoft desktop should be a standard like KDE or Gnome.
> 
> I don't believe they understand the damage they do to their brand.
> 
> ...


Almost surely the 5950X system is upgradeable just with a UEFI change in the security options to enable TPM version 2.0 and secure boot.


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## Crackong (Dec 3, 2021)

> Windows 11 a Flop



News ?


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## The Quim Reaper (Dec 3, 2021)

Change for the sake of change.

No doubt I'll end up on 11 at some point (next complete new PC build in 2023/24) but it will be done on my timescale, not Microsoft's.

Unless of course 11 is considered to be such a flop that they move quickly to Windows 12


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## Vayra86 (Dec 3, 2021)

Burn it with fire. Show Nadella how this game works. Do it right or f off.

And he can take his Store along with 11 to the dust bin too.


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## Zubasa (Dec 3, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Almost surely the 5950X system is upgradeable just with a UEFI change in the security options to enable TPM version 2.0 and secure boot.


For DIY PCs you don't even need to enable Secure Boot, just fTPM.
In fact new bios updates for most boards just enable fTPM by default so that people stop getting confused by Microsoft.


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

I'm like 0.000001% of that less than 1% so I'm sure it's not a total flop


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## AugeK (Dec 3, 2021)

With Windows 11 I use the same UI as I did with Windows 10: Classic Shell add-on as, in my personal opinion, both UI suck.
But Windows 11 UI to me is an absolute no-go, no way I'm ever gonna use it!


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## Karti (Dec 3, 2021)

Lets see.. 
- more force on using a online account, you are literaly blocked from many things if you bypass their requirments and make a offline acc
- more resource intensive on lower tier hardware - even if it all fits the requirments and you are "inside cpu generation list" that they gave us some time ago
- more telemetry and sucking of our data
- making things that worked flawlessly for more than +20 years - more hard and idiotic... just don't let me start talking about "right click" and seeing you are lacking so many options... UNLESS you press then a button there to extend that crapy right click, with a second right click menu.. THAT IS ACTUALY WHAT WE HAD ALL THAT TIME - like... microsoft (duck) why you had to force on reinventing the wheel, and giving us a triangle?

Srsly windows 11 is the final thing that proves that you rather stay with windows 10... or give a shot to a linux
maybe it will be a total flop that will get a total rework of how it suppose to work.. just like xbox one was at start - remember whole "tv" jokes we had from start? - it gonna get fixed in a future? who knows... but for now i am staying with my dual drive with Windows 10 and Linux Mint... bb win 11 - for now


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Of course it's a flop!

No one has ever asked for it, yet they still made TPM 2.0 a requirement. It's like a vegetarian driving into a McDonalds drive-thru only to be told that he/she has to drive a car that was made in the last 2 years to enter.

As for me, I don't need another crappy Start menu to fix the current crappy one. Just bring back any Start menu from between Windows 95 and Windows 7, and I'll be happy, thank you very much.

Why Microsoft thinks that people enjoy re-learning stuff that has worked for ages is beyond me. Especially since they've already sat in the same pickle with Windows 8.


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## xChoice (Dec 3, 2021)

Whisker Menu  ftw!


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> No one has ever asked for it, yet they still made TPM 2.0 a requirement.


It's not a requirement.


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## chrcoluk (Dec 3, 2021)

Why are they calling it a start menu? its a tablet style app drawer in a window, I simply cannot get my head around the amount of padding they have in place for it.  The padding is as big as the icons are, so much wasted space.

It kind of reminds me of the Edge situation, Microsoft made a thread on their own community forum asking for feedback, overwhelmingly people asked for the padding to be reduced and they simply stopped replying ignoring the feedback.

They tried this focusing on tablets for the UI in Windows Eight which made it a failure but somehow people are not reacting the same on Windows even for some reason.

Thinking of the history of windows?

7 - drop widgets, 11- add widgets
10 - add app pinning animated tiles, 11 drop it again
8 - remove start menu, 10 add start menu, 11 - drop start menu
10 - decrease padding on taskbar, 11 increase it significantly
8 - remove file version in explorer in favour of file history feature, 10 add it back.

Chopping and changing, but not just chopping and changing also reversing previous decisions.

11 I feel I want to say is the worst windows UI, but 8 probably still holds the crown, however its a strong second.

I dont think its a flop though, on many communities I am on nearly everyone is choosing to upgrade.  I only know of one person who downgraded back to 10, everyone else just seems to soak up the UI changes as if they dont care.









						Windows 11 Specs and System Requirements | Microsoft
					

Find an overview of Windows 11 specs and features from Microsoft. Learn about the device specifications, versions and languages available for Windows 11



					www.microsoft.com
				




Check Feature Deprecations, all the UI stuff.


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> It's not a requirement.


_"Windows 11 requires a trusted platform module (TPM 2.0), which disqualifies PCs older than 2018 for upgrades, unless the user is willing to try out workarounds to the limitation."_

How many people do you think are willing to try workarounds just to get Windows 11 (that they don't need anyway)?



chrcoluk said:


> Why are they calling it a start menu? its a tablet style app drawer in a window, I simply cannot get my head around the amount of padding they have in place for it.  The padding is as big as the cons are, so much wasted space.
> 
> It kind of reminds me of the Edge situation, Microsoft made a thread on their own community forum asking for feedback, overwhelmingly people asked for the padding to be reduced and they simply stopped replying ignoring the feedback.
> 
> They tried this focusing on tables for the UI in Windows Eight which made it a failure but somehow people are not reacting the same on Windows even for some reason.


That just gave me a revolutionary idea! Why don't they put only one icon in the middle of the screen, with 98% of the screen serving no purpose? Then the user could scroll endlessly to get to the next icon.


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## Vya Domus (Dec 3, 2021)

Well, probably less than 1% of all PCs out there even support it so it's not exactly surprising.


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## chrcoluk (Dec 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> _"Windows 11 requires a trusted platform module (TPM 2.0), which disqualifies PCs older than 2018 for upgrades, unless the user is willing to try out workarounds to the limitation."_
> 
> How many people do you think are willing to try workarounds just to get Windows 11 (that they don't need anyway)?
> 
> ...



It seems to be a modern dev thing with excessive padding, firefox dev's tried to remove their "compact" option as well, but after a massive backlash they hidden it instead crying they wont support it lol.


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> It seems to be a modern dev thing with excessive padding


I don't understand why, though. Do they think people don't use mice anymore?


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> "Windows 11 requires a trusted platform module (TPM 2.0), which disqualifies PCs older than 2018 for upgrades, unless the *user is willing to try out workarounds to the limitation*."


Right & like I said you don't need it.


AusWolf said:


> *How many people do you think are willing to try workarounds* just to get Windows 11 (that they don't need anyway)?


That wasn't the point.


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## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

I called from the start: extra restrictions, little to nothing to show for it. I even said "free" is too expensive for what they offer, they should be paying us to install that.


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## Chomiq (Dec 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> I don't understand why, though. Do they think people don't use mice anymore?


Simple:








						Windows 10X
					

Windows 10X (codenamed Santorini) was an edition of Windows 10 that had been in development by Microsoft as part of the Windows NT family. It was announced on October 2, 2019 as an operating system to support dual-screen devices, such as the Surface Neo. Windows 10X was originally expected to be...




					microsoft.fandom.com
				




11 is a rebranded 10X. This is what you get when port interface designed for tablets to use for desktop environment.


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> This is what you get when port interface designed for tablets to use for desktop environment.


That was said for win8 as well, this isn't changing unless MS uses completely different OSes for touchscreens/mobiles/tablets & desktops.


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Right & like I said you don't need it.





R0H1T said:


> It's not a requirement.


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

Ok, I don't see a contradiction there. I said the same thing in both the posts. If you want a simple workaround just Google "windows 11 no TPM build" ~ that easy enough for the plebs?

It would be a problem if MS enforced that but clearly they're not doing it.


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## Chomiq (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Ok, I don't see a contradiction there. I said the same thing in both the posts. If you want a simple workaround just Google "windows 11 no TPM build" ~ that easy enough for the plebs?
> 
> It would be a problem if MS enforced that but clearly they're not doing it.


Pleb clicks "Check if your system can run next Windows version" and once they see "No it can't" they go "Ok...".


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## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Ok, I don't see a contradiction there. I said the same thing in both the posts. If you want a simple workaround just Google "windows 11 no TPM build" ~ that easy enough for the plebs?
> 
> It would be a problem if MS enforced that but clearly they're not doing it.


In short, if Microsoft says it's a requirement, but doesn't enforce it yet, then it's not a requirement? I wouldn't risk my main system on that.


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Simple:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I knew about Windows 10X, but I didn't realise how similar 11 looks. 

So essentially, 10X got scrapped because the idea of it was crap, but later they realised that the person who designed the UI was the son of some big boss, so they incorporated it into 11. 



Chomiq said:


> Pleb clicks "Check if your system can run next Windows version" and once they see "No it can't" they go "Ok...".


Exactly. Plebs don't even know what a TPM is.


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## Chomiq (Dec 3, 2021)

MS lacks vision required to design a new OS from scratch and what we get instead are botched attempts at merging multiple branches over code that's been there for decades. They had UI designed for tablets, then someone saw a screenshot of this or a demo and said "Ok, let's put this in 11" without considering how will it work on regular displays that are 1080p or even lower res. Once eleven got released someone else decided that Office 365 needs to have the same type of design applied to it so now actual real estate when using any office app is greatly reduced because everything is 40% bigger.
I could design better UI in Paint.
Before:




After:



And you could still shave off lots of useless pixels that are there simply because UI is to be used on a touchscreen. That stupid top bar always has Icon, search bar and maybe filename. Why the hell does it have to take so much desktop real estate?


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## Melvis (Dec 3, 2021)

Who didnt see that one coming? like Honestly...........


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## Broken Processor (Dec 3, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Almost surely the 5950X system is upgradeable just with a UEFI change in the security options to enable TPM version 2.0 and secure boot.


It probably also requires partition modification to GPT


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## Dristun (Dec 3, 2021)

It looks like ass with all the ridiculous padding, offers nothing interesting of value and Microsoft has the nerve to ask average consumers to change BIOS settings and mess with partitions to be able to update. Lol. Not to mention that lots of software is yet to support it officially, even if it might work ok w/o it.


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

bug said:


> In short, if Microsoft says it's a requirement, but doesn't enforce it yet, then it's not a requirement? *I wouldn't risk my main system on that.*


Yes kinda like you need to activate Windows to use it, after the initial grace period, but MS doesn't nuke your system if you don't.

But you probably don't have to, it's kinda like saying if you have to ask you probably don't need it.

*Windows 11 is not a requirement* for anything right now.


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> MS lacks vision required to design a new OS from scratch and what we get instead are botched attempts at merging multiple branches over code that's been there for decades. They had UI designed for tablets, then someone saw a screenshot of this or a demo and said "Ok, let's put this in 11" without considering how will it work on regular displays that are 1080p or even lower res. Once eleven got released someone else decided that Office 365 needs to have the same type of design applied to it so now actual real estate when using any office app is greatly reduced because everything is 40% bigger.


We don't even need a new OS from scratch. As long as the old one can support new software and hardware with updates, we're fine. Just like nobody needed Office 365, either.


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## Totally (Dec 3, 2021)

Broken Processor said:


> It probably also requires partition modification to GPT


Nope just go into bios and hit a toggle OS handles the rest, if it does anything.


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## Chris34 (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 12 coming next year. Probably.


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## Aretak (Dec 3, 2021)

The UI really is a non-issue. It sucks, but you just install StartAllBack and it's gone. It fixes the Start menu, it fixes the taskbar, it fixes the context menus and can even put Explorer back to how it looked in Windows 10 (or even Windows 7) if you prefer that. The hardware requirements are also trivial to bypass. Rufus will automatically patch them out if you use it to create the installation media. I'm running it without my TPM or Secure Boot enabled, and have had no problems. It doesn't complain about anything and updates work just fine.

Beyond that, it's just Windows 10 with some minor improvements. It's somewhat lighter than Windows 10 and uses less RAM, comparing my custom debloating of both. It also outright allows you to disable telemetry via Group Policy if you're using Education or Enterprise (I installed the latter), which is something Windows 10 doesn't allow, with even those editions sending "necessary" data. I haven't encountered any more bugs than I ever had with Windows 10 either. Not that that's a high bar, given Microsoft's endless beta approach to Windows these days, but still.

It's really not a bad version of Windows once you fix Microsoft's boneheaded design decisions. On the whole I like it more than I ever liked Windows 10. In an ideal world I'd still prefer to be using Windows 7, but that becomes less and less viable, even with BypassESU.


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## Abaidor (Dec 3, 2021)

HD64G said:


> Almost surely the 5950X system is upgradeable just with a UEFI change in the security options to enable TPM version 2.0 and secure boot.


My 7940X on Asus Rampage VI Extreme is eligible as well......just check your BIOS settigns.


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## LifeOnMars (Dec 3, 2021)

I really like it, but obviously in the minority. Flawless game performance, fast subsystem, I've really had no issues from release day other than the Ryzen cache issue that was fixed but honestly, game performance has been great and that's all I'm bothered about. Could it be more streamlined? Definitely, but I'm certainly not losing sleep over it. I use firefox as my browser(super fast), browse a multitude of websites and youtube, game on it and that's it. As I've said before though, I wish Microsoft would release a gaming variant of Windows and back up their word that PC gamers matter to them.


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## Guwapo77 (Dec 3, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> I like having the control panel still, but Microsoft is intent on removing it with W11.


Its still there.  I can confirm first hand.  I'm also a person who loves the control panel.  Its pinned to the windows button (start menu).



Chomiq said:


> Simple:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn't feel like Win 8's tablet design.  It feels like Win 10, but prettier.  I wouldn't use this UI for a tablet as it wouldn't be user friendly at all.



Aretak said:


> The UI really is a non-issue. It sucks, but you just install StartAllBack and it's gone. It fixes the Start menu, it fixes the taskbar, it fixes the context menus and can even put Explorer back to how it looked in Windows 10 (or even Windows 7) if you prefer that. The hardware requirements are also trivial to bypass. Rufus will automatically patch them out if you use it to create the installation media. I'm running it without my TPM or Secure Boot enabled, and have had no problems. It doesn't complain about anything and updates work just fine.
> 
> Beyond that, it's just Windows 10 with some minor improvements. It's somewhat lighter than Windows 10 and uses less RAM, comparing my custom debloating of both. It also outright allows you to disable telemetry via Group Policy if you're using Education or Enterprise (I installed the latter), which is something Windows 10 doesn't allow, with even those editions sending "necessary" data. I haven't encountered any more bugs than I ever had with Windows 10 either. Not that that's a high bar, given Microsoft's endless beta approach to Windows these days, but still.
> 
> It's really not a bad version of Windows once you fix Microsoft's boneheaded design decisions. On the whole I like it more than I ever liked Windows 10. In an ideal world I'd still prefer to be using Windows 7, but that becomes less and less viable, even with BypassESU.


I have to say I agree with most of everything you just said here.  I didn't think I would like Windows 11, but I am really liking the UI as is and I don't need to change it back to 10.  Oh, there is one thing I have an issue with and its the clock for those use use multiple monitor setups like I do (3 x 1440p).  I don't have a close on my other screens, I need those back when I'm in full screen.


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## rutra80 (Dec 3, 2021)

Less than 1%... Who is surprised?? That's more or less as many as those who meet hardware requirements.


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## Calmmo (Dec 3, 2021)

Steam hardware survey says otherwise. Higher than you'd think in such a short amount of time.


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## zlobby (Dec 3, 2021)




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## Octopuss (Dec 3, 2021)

btarunr said:


> clunky user interface (UI), a less functional Start menu than Windows 10


Say what?
Someone explain this shit to me.
What the hell did they do to the interface? I thought it looked mostly identical to Win10


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## zlobby (Dec 3, 2021)

Calmmo said:


> Steam hardware survey says otherwise. Higher than you'd think in such a short amount of time.
> 
> View attachment 227432


Only that Steam stats count only for the store platform users. Steam users are a small number of all machines running Windows. Simple mafs. 



Aretak said:


> The UI really is a non-issue. It sucks, but you just install StartAllBack and it's gone. It fixes the Start menu, it fixes the taskbar, it fixes the context menus and can even put Explorer back to how it looked in Windows 10 (or even Windows 7) if you prefer that. The hardware requirements are also trivial to bypass. Rufus will automatically patch them out if you use it to create the installation media. I'm running it without my TPM or Secure Boot enabled, and have had no problems. It doesn't complain about anything and updates work just fine.
> 
> Beyond that, it's just Windows 10 with some minor improvements. It's somewhat lighter than Windows 10 and uses less RAM, comparing my custom debloating of both. It also outright allows you to disable telemetry via Group Policy if you're using Education or Enterprise (I installed the latter), which is something Windows 10 doesn't allow, with even those editions sending "necessary" data. I haven't encountered any more bugs than I ever had with Windows 10 either. Not that that's a high bar, given Microsoft's endless beta approach to Windows these days, but still.
> 
> It's really not a bad version of Windows once you fix Microsoft's boneheaded design decisions. On the whole I like it more than I ever liked Windows 10. In an ideal world I'd still prefer to be using Windows 7, but that becomes less and less viable, even with BypassESU.


Thanks for the RUFUS hint!


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## dyonoctis (Dec 3, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> MS lacks vision required to design a new OS from scratch and what we get instead are botched attempts at merging multiple branches over code that's been there for decades. They had UI designed for tablets, then someone saw a screenshot of this or a demo and said "Ok, let's put this in 11" without considering how will it work on regular displays that are 1080p or even lower res. Once eleven got released someone else decided that Office 365 needs to have the same type of design applied to it so now actual real estate when using any office app is greatly reduced because everything is 40% bigger.
> I could design better UI in Paint.
> Before:
> View attachment 227429
> ...


Microsoft doesn't have the funds to develop a full desktop UI and a tablet UI at the same time . /S
But more seriously, if there's anything to blame, it's the sole existence of laptops with touch screens. The way that windows is currently designed allow people using such device to switch from a touch based to a trackpad/mouse based user input without delay. What's more annoying between wasted space but a design that is still functional, or having to manually switch from a touch UI to a desktop UI every time ?


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## InVasMani (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 11 your computer seems to be running virus free also we've reinstalled Minecraft and Candy Crush and added them to your Start Menu again along with the other stuff you uninstalled good effort nice try.


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## Calmmo (Dec 3, 2021)

zlobby said:


> Only that Steam stats count only for the store platform users. Steam users are a small number of all machines running Windows. Simple mafs.



Not quite as small as you're making it out to be, but yeah sorry to break the 2 pages of shitposting!


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## SN2716057 (Dec 3, 2021)

I've upgraded my VR&HT-PC and my laptop, and both work just fine. I've also upgraded the laptops of my mum an dad and I haven't heard them complain.

However I haven't updated my main system yet as I work with a lot of files, and the folder previews are godsend.


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## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> MS lacks vision required to design a new OS from scratch and what we get instead are botched attempts at merging multiple branches over code that's been there for decades. They had UI designed for tablets, then someone saw a screenshot of this or a demo and said "Ok, let's put this in 11" without considering how will it work on regular displays that are 1080p or even lower res. Once eleven got released someone else decided that Office 365 needs to have the same type of design applied to it so now actual real estate when using any office app is greatly reduced because everything is 40% bigger.
> I could design better UI in Paint.
> Before:
> View attachment 227429
> ...


It's in their DNA. For years, Microsoft had this cop-out, where they would hide lack of meaningful improvements behind a shiny new UI (basically exactly the opposite of what Apple does). It seems this has survived Mr Nadela's overhaul of the company.

Seriously, take the UI out of the equation and try to find a single useful thing about 11. And I mean useful for the end user, because the "account required" is useful, but only for Microsoft - more data for them to mine.



Calmmo said:


> Steam hardware survey says otherwise. Higher than you'd think in such a short amount of time.
> 
> View attachment 227432


Could it be that gamers aren't representative of all Windows users?
Hell, enterprise alone will throw a monkey wrench into those stats, I'm sure you can still find some running Win7 or 8.


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## rutra80 (Dec 3, 2021)

I use to think that MS is like that prodigy kid with inferiority complex. It has a crush on those dumb but good looking Apples and Androids (and now also on that nerd Linux) and tries to imitate them, instead of appreciating his own crowd and following its expectations. It could very well set the trends, it actually did, but then always withdrawn and disappointed his fellows. It's like Windows' parents don't know what it is and try to make it something else than it strongly really is...
Switching back and forth from colourful to monochrome UI? Making desktop and server os touch driven? Getting great UI "out of the way" with tiny hiding scroll bars and by removing all visible divisions to sections, like everyone has Asperger? Total chaos. Like there's no long term strategy or insight into the past.
I suspect that there's a lot of rotation inside MS and it gets infected with people who at home use Macs, talk with their colleagues via Android phones, and the only thing they have in common with Windows is that they develop it on Linux


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## cyneater (Dec 3, 2021)

Maybe if they didn't break or have sexy fingers and really break the start menu in windows 10 they wouldn't need windows 11.

Just make a win 7 theme for 10 fixed. Now ill have $1million thanks


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## Chomiq (Dec 3, 2021)

bug said:


> Could it be that gamers aren't representative of all Windows users?
> Hell, enterprise alone will throw a monkey wrench into those stats, I'm sure you can still find some running Win7 or 8.


Yeah, one of our big pharma clients is still using Windows 7 PC's to run software designed for specific instruments. They don't update those unless manufacturer sends in a new machine for replacement and that one has new software that requires new operating system.


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## AusWolf (Dec 3, 2021)

Calmmo said:


> sorry to break the 2 pages of shitposting!


Everybody cries about the UI. Whether you're a fan of it or not, let's be honest - there's barely anything else that Windows 11 offers over 10 at the moment. At least I can't name anything from the top of my head. This is exactly the problem, imo: Windows 11 is essentially Windows 10 with a (badly executed) UI overhaul and a TPM 2.0 requirement. Who needed this, honestly?


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## darksf (Dec 3, 2021)

Well no surprise here. I was waiting for something from microsoft to convince me to switch from Windows 7 to a newer OS but it seems more and more that I will switch to linux. I've been playing around with Intel's Clear Linux(funny enough runs equaly good on both Intel and AMD platforms unlike W11) so far in a VM envirionment but I think I'm ready to make the hustle and put it on bare metal. Funny thing is that it might actually have better support through 3rd party tools for ages old game titles than windows 10. Yes most of the time is not just click and install but have any of you recently tried to install NFS Porsche on anything different than Windows 98 

Windows 98 - kinda ok 
Windows 98SE - much better
Windows ME - it was good but there were more blue screens in general than 98SE
Windows 2000 - It was a rock solid OS never had a crash but at the time there was barely any software that supported but this improved with the introduction of XP
Windows XP - well it was heavy and buggy SP1 improved stability SP2 imporved it further and made it a bit faster , SP3 made it lightning fast.
Windows 2003 - very fast compared to XP SP1 used it for 3 years as my main OS
Vista - well what to say it was way too heavy for most of the HW at the time , the new driver model and no backward compability with legacy hardware was just the final nail in the coffin of Vista. People were paying to downgrade them to XP
Windows 7 - my sunshine almost as fast as XP SP3 , stable , modern UI yet everything was in place,backward compatible with lot's of stuff , people switched really fast to it , it was and it is that good!
Windows 8 - never gave it a chance , too much UI changes that I did not like and no appearent reason for me to switch.
Windows 8.1 - I put it on one convertible touch laptop/tablet Thinkpad x220t and I it was definetly fast , the UI was kinda almost back to Win7 except the fullscreen start menu , I was just about to give it a chance at my main rig and Win10 came out and now Windows 8.1 is less supported than Windows 7

Win 10 - what to say - I don't like the idea of having MS tracking everything , I don't like how much RAM it sucks for nothing , I don't like the sudden updates that happen some times even with windows update swtiched off! I had troubles with different softwares after couple of MS updates. Some settings reverted , driver issues with legacy hardware. It just won't do for my main rig. I have it in my office , i have it on one machine at home , that I mostly use as a NAS and a network printer.

Win 11 - well it is just a 10 with a nice new cover , UI seems kinda good but yet i prefer W7 classic UI , and the minimum HW spec because of security reasons is just a bummer and big show stopper to the adoption of this new OS given the fact how expensive is the hardware this days.


----------



## Bwaze (Dec 3, 2021)

I am really struggling to see what is the idea behind some choices in Windows 11.

Explorer context menu reduction - what is that all about? Who gains anything from that? Yeah, it can become bloated with many programs adding their own options - so add a simple way of editing it, maybe? 

Or new, mostly empty "Start" menu...

Everything looks like there are groups with different ideas on what UI should look like that are battling each other, and the winner gets to design a particular section of operating system.


----------



## noel_fs (Dec 3, 2021)

problem is the whole UI is a half cooked pie, its unusuable. lots of things that took 2 clicks with 10 now with 11 take 4, taskbar has been ruined, there is not even vertical taskbar.


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## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

bug said:


> where they would hide lack of meaningful improvements behind a shiny new UI (basically exactly the opposite of what Apple does).


Except when it's not broke don't fix it! *Windows has been arguably the more superior platform to Mac for eons*, you don't want to break it just because someone likes or doesn't like the new UI


----------



## noel_fs (Dec 3, 2021)

darksf said:


> Well no surprise here. I was waiting for something from microsoft to convince me to switch from Windows 7 to a newer OS but it seems more and more that I will switch to linux. I've been playing around with Intel's Clear Linux(funny enough runs equaly good on both Intel and AMD platforms unlike W11) so far in a VM envirionment but I think I'm ready to make the hustle and put it on bare metal. Funny thing is that it might actually have better support through 3rd party tools for ages old game titles than windows 10. Yes most of the time is not just click and install but have any of you recently tried to install NFS Porsche on anything different than Windows 98
> 
> Windows 98 - kinda ok
> Windows 98SE - much better
> ...


agree pretty much with everything but my fav is 8.1, so fucking fast while having basically a modern win7 UI, start menu wasnt that big of a deal i rarely use it.

Win 11, UI seems nice but its horrible in practice. 

Also, they should stick to win7 control panel or switch it altogher instead of going piece by piece making a mess.


----------



## dyonoctis (Dec 3, 2021)

bug said:


> It's in their DNA. For years, Microsoft had this cop-out, where they would hide lack of meaningful improvements behind a shiny new UI (basically exactly the opposite of what Apple does). It seems this has survived Mr Nadela's overhaul of the company.
> 
> Seriously, take the UI out of the equation and try to find a single useful thing about 11. And I mean useful for the end user, because the "account required" is useful, but only for Microsoft - more data for them to mine.
> 
> ...


Multiscreen memory ? a more intuitive way to choose a layout to fit several windows on one screen ? The Bluetooth panel is less painful to use ? The sounds settings are finally unified ? It's not much, but win 11 did have a few qol adjustment. 


rutra80 said:


> I use to think that MS is like that prodigy kid with inferiority complex. It has a crush on those dumb but good looking Apples and Androids (and now also on that nerd Linux) and tries to imitate them, instead of appreciating his own crowd and following its expectations. It could very well set the trends, it actually did, but then always withdrawn and disappointed his fellows. It's like Windows' parents don't know what it is and try to make it something else than it strongly really is...
> Switching back and forth from colourful to monochrome UI? Making desktop and server os touch driven? Getting great UI "out of the way" with tiny hiding scroll bars and by removing all visible divisions to sections, like everyone has Asperger? Total chaos. Like there's no long term strategy or insight into the past.
> I suspect that there's a lot of rotation inside MS and it gets infected with people who at home use Macs, talk with their colleagues via Android phones, and the only thing they have in common with Windows is that they develop it on Linux


Windows  2000 to XP to vista was also a big switch in design . Microsoft is also starting to feel the weight of the "One OS for all". MacOs know what it is : a desktop OS  IpadOS is a touch Os. Both platform have apps designed specifically for them.  MacOS isn't schizophrenic like Windows, when they are doing a UI overhaul they meant it, and they get through with it. 

Microsoft can't do that, because nobody want a windows that cannot do "classic windows" stuff, so they have to develop an "hybrid OS, to rule them all." Now you might say "but how many actually own and enjoy touchscreen laptops ?" seeing at how OEM (and Microsoft himself) keep making 2-in1 laptops it seems that people are buying them, and as long as they do, Microsoft will keep making an hybrid OS.


----------



## zlobby (Dec 3, 2021)

Calmmo said:


> Not quite as small as you're making it out to be, but yeah sorry to break the 2 pages of shitposting!


Do you have an idea how many office PC and home PC don't run Steam at all? Steam may have millions of installs but that's still nowhere near to the total amount of PC worldwide. Again, simple mafs.


----------



## Bubster (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 11 is faster than 10 in a lot of ways with the right tweaks and disabling lots of bloatware like xbox and bing and widgets... Especially with a 12 gen cpu and low latency ram and a couple of pcie gen 4  ssds. tried it in both amd and intel and it is indeed faster and more responsive


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## Ravenas (Dec 3, 2021)

I really can't stand how they got rid of the background apps menu. They are trying to force an encumbrance on people who want to limit the amount of background apps.

You are now made to go to add/remove programs menu, and then check every individual app to see it's permissions.


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## zlobby (Dec 3, 2021)

noel_fs said:


> agree pretty much with everything but my fav is 8.1, so fucking fast while having basically a modern win7 UI, start menu wasnt that big of a deal i rarely use it.
> 
> Win 11, UI seems nice but its horrible in practice.
> 
> Also, they should stick to win7 control panel or switch it altogher instead of going piece by piece making a mess.


M$ couldn't get all settings in one place for over a decade! This alone speaks enough.


----------



## noel_fs (Dec 3, 2021)

dyonoctis said:


> Multiscreen memory ? a more intuitive way to choose a layout to fit several windows on one screen ? The Bluetooth panel is less painful to use ? The sounds settings are finally unified ? It's not much, but win 11 did have a few qol adjustment.


It made a few qol improvements while ruining a lot of other qol aspects, thats what microsoft does every time in a cycle, probably in 2/3 years there will be an usable win11 version but for now its a pain in the ass.


----------



## R0H1T (Dec 3, 2021)

It's hardly unusable, if you're fine with win10 it isn't that big of a deal.


----------



## Pilgrim (Dec 3, 2021)

I ran the beta for three months, it's a stupid piece of shit.


----------



## Speedyblupi (Dec 3, 2021)

LabRat 891 said:


> Windows 11 is basically Windows 10.1, ala Win8-8.1.
> I don't recall either 8 or 8.1 being well liked or popular.
> When I worked retail tech in the 8-8.1 era, almost every new PC customer wanted Windows 7; some even paid us to 'downgrade' their purchase to Windows 7.
> It really doesn't surprise me that 11 is a non-starter.


8.1 was basically a fixed version of 8, which put back the start menu and other features that had been removed. 8.1 wasn't great because its performance sucked, but it wasn't unusable like 8 was.
Windows 11 isn't fixing anything that was broken in Windows 10, it's just better optimised for hybrid CPUs and removed or obfuscated a bunch of features.
Windows 11 is to Windows 10 as Windows 8 was to Windows 7 (though not quite as bad), or as Vista was to XP.

My windows top 11:
XP
7
98
10
95
8.1
2000
Vista
11
Me
8


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## Lycanwolfen (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 11 is another Windows 8 in my point of view. The biggest problem MS did with Windows 8 is not follow consistency in there platform. Windows 10 fixed that. In windows 11 you notice in the settings tabs now there is no simple left hand scroll for all the options. No simple option for turning off background apps or other things for security reasons. Now in Windows 11 you have to click on every app and goto advanced then find run in background to turn it off. This is very counter productive. The kernal is actually pretty awesome in Windows 11 as I made a PE of it and wow the whole thing was small just under 300 MB. But of course the engineers make a great Kernal but then the software guys bloat it all to hell and make it so unfunctional. Now some People say they love the new Edge well its nothing but chromium with a Microsoft Logo. The problem is they again intergrated it into everything. Also first time you open it nothing but advertising. When will MS get it we all hate it. 

I'm quite sure MS will fix it with 11.1 or 12 just like they had too with windows 8. You have to follow consistency and context. Stop trying to copy Apple MAC OSX. 

If Microsoft really wanted to make a MACOSX clone then release a MS Unix, otherwise its just more bells and whistles.


----------



## Chomiq (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> It's hardly unusable, if you're fine with win10 it isn't that big of a deal.


You sound like MS rep


----------



## etayorius (Dec 3, 2021)

It was expected with all those hardware requirements.


----------



## Lycanwolfen (Dec 3, 2021)

I personally Just Upgraded to Windows 10 LTSC 2021. Guess what you could uninstall Edge . It took me a while to remove windows defender but it was all in gpedit.msc just hidden deeper. Was also able to remove the stupid firewall prompt after I turn it off. I really do not need a software firewall when My hardware firewall does the trick. I turned off all telemetry tracking in group policies. Got it to work good too. I bought 3 licenses of LTSC 2021 and will be working on my gaming box soon with it.


----------



## Bubster (Dec 3, 2021)

XP Service Pack 2 was fantastic, i still use it in virtualization to play older simulation games like Blazing angels 2 and F-22 Lightning 3


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## Metroid (Dec 3, 2021)

In my view with few modifications, windows 11 can become very good. I have done it and I'm very happy with it.


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## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Except when it's not broke don't fix it! *Windows has been arguably the more superior platform to Mac for eons*, you don't want to break it just because someone likes or doesn't like the new UI


Which Windows would that be? 98? 2000? XP? Vista? 7? 8? 10?

Superior is in the eye of the user, the point is you don't change UI just to make it look like you have a whole shiny new OS.



AusWolf said:


> Everybody cries about the UI. Whether you're a fan of it or not, let's be honest - there's barely anything else that Windows 11 offers over 10 at the moment. At least I can't name anything from the top of my head. This is exactly the problem, imo: Windows 11 is essentially Windows 10 with a (badly executed) UI overhaul and a TPM 2.0 requirement. Who needed this, honestly?


That's not true at all. Win11 also comes with a requirement for a Microsoft account and some arcane requirements for memory protections. Those memory protections can be worked around the same as the TPM requirement and are not turned on for the time being anyway. But they do come with a hefty performance penalty for CPUs that don't have the hardware for it.


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## cyberloner (Dec 3, 2021)

unlock the taskbar microsoft.........


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## Yraggul666 (Dec 3, 2021)

No surprise at all.
When a CEO and most recently board of directors chairman makes a statement like the following "The Microsoft of 2021 is very different from the Microsoft of 2000" "To me and to everyone at Microsoft, our focus on our culture, our diversity, our inclusion, in particular, the everyday experience of our people is super important, it's a huge priority." i can't expect anything good from him or the company he's leading.
He said nothing about working harder to not fuck things up;or about how they "mined" enough data from everyone and about six years later allowing the user to turn off telemetry; or about working harder for updates to work correctly; or about updates not reverting settings and destroying some drivers; or about making the end user's experience a better one, nooooo, it's all about diversity and culture and other overused clichees and platitudes.
GG nadella.

Checked out win11 on a buddy's rig. Hated it. 
First thing i did after finding out that an upgrade will be offered to win10 users, was to enter BIOS and make sure that TPM and Sec Boot were disabled; 
we don't want M$ forcing their crap down our throats again, now would we!?

I'll be on modded win10 'till they drop support for it in 2025 and after that i'll be switching to Linux by the looks of it.


----------



## RoutedScripter (Dec 3, 2021)

Alternate reality: Roadmap 2022: Windows XP Remastered


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## rutra80 (Dec 3, 2021)

bug said:


> That's not true at all. Win11 also comes with a requirement for a Microsoft account and some arcane requirements for memory protections. Those memory protections can be worked around the same as the TPM requirement and are not turned on for the time being anyway. But they do come with a hefty performance penalty for CPUs that don't have the hardware for it.


I got seriously annoyed when lately I was preparing a laptop for a small company which uses Azure Active Directory - on Windows 10 I was skipping creating Hello credentials when logging in as an user for the first time, so he could do that oneself at next logon. On Windows 11 it is not possible to skip - you need to create Hello credentials or it is not possible to log in at all. Had to resort to some GP tweaks to log in, do the customizing, and then revert the tweaks to bring back the Hello requesters.


----------



## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

rutra80 said:


> I got seriously annoyed when lately I was preparing a laptop for a small company which uses Azure Active Directory - on Windows 10 I was skipping creating Hello credentials when logging in as an user for the first time, so he could do that oneself at next logon. On Windows 11 it is not possible to skip - you need to create Hello credentials or it is not possible to log in at all. Had to resort to some GP tweaks to log in, do the customizing, and then revert the tweaks to bring back the Hello requesters.


I'm pretty sure they still have to provide all that, otherwise enterprises wouldn't be able to preinstall anything. But yeah, it was there for everyone before 

Not to mention Hello works so well, it can't recognize my fingerprint about half the time. I have already given up trying to use it.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 11 changes the UI, which is an immediate non starter for many. It doesnt support 7th gen or older platforms, which wipes out a LOT of legacy hardware. It needs TPM 2.0, which wipes out yet more of the applicable hardware. It offers nothing to the end user in terms of useful software updates or features. Is it any surprise people dont touch the damn thing? 

And guys, look, lets gets oen thing clear here. Can the TPM requirement be worked around? Absolutely, just like windows 10 can be tweaked to boot on a pentium III. That does not mean the vast majority of users will do that. Most users do not know how to bypass TPM 2.0, fewer want to try and modify windows 11 so it will boot. Of the tiny percentage of end users who DO know how to do this, even fewer want to. Could I bypass the requirements ot get this to load on my PC? absolutely. Do I want to? HELL NO. If I wanted to tweak and bypass stuff to get my OS to work, I'd use linux (which I do, for the most part, since if I'm putting that work in I'm avoiding MS at all costs). 

MS shot themselves in the foot restricting windows 10.1 so harshly. Backwards compatibility is a big selling point for windows. 


bug said:


> Which Windows would that be? 98? 2000? XP? Vista? 7? 8? 10?
> 
> Superior is in the eye of the user, the point is you don't change UI just to make it look like you have a whole shiny new OS.
> 
> ...


By "hefty performanc penalty" you mean 1%? Because those who HAVE worked around the restrictions have reported almost no difference in performance. 

Requiring TPM 2.0 is just a dog and pony show to work witht he like of netflix, amazon, et al that want to stop those eanie pirates recording their content. And if you believe conspiracy theories, a way to ban people who say no no words from ever using a computer again.


----------



## WonkoTheSaneUK (Dec 3, 2021)

WTF? Why have they hidden "Rename" two sub-menus down??


----------



## MEC-777 (Dec 3, 2021)

Guess I'm one of the lucky ones that hasn't had any issues so far? I waited until it had been out for a while and after some major fixes were implemented and it's been fine (knock on wood). So idk... I don't use the start menu much either so that doesn't bother me much. I think some people like to complain for the sake of complaining and jumping on the band wagon, so to speak. I'm also running it on my Ryzen laptop and Ryzen gaming rig with no discernable performance issues, what-so-ever.


----------



## rutra80 (Dec 3, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Windows 11 changes the UI, which is an immediate non starter for many. It doesnt support 7th gen or older platforms, which wipes out a LOT of legacy hardware. It needs TPM 2.0, which wipes out yet more of the applicable hardware. It offers nothing to the end user in terms of useful software updates or features. Is it any surprise people dont touch the damn thing?
> 
> And guys, look, lets gets oen thing clear here. Can the TPM requirement be worked around? Absolutely, just like windows 10 can be tweaked to boot on a pentium III. That does not mean the vast majority of users will do that. Most users do not know how to bypass TPM 2.0, fewer want to try and modify windows 11 so it will boot. Of the tiny percentage of end users who DO know how to do this, even fewer want to. Could I bypass the requirements ot get this to load on my PC? absolutely. Do I want to? HELL NO. If I wanted to tweak and bypass stuff to get my OS to work, I'd use linux (which I do, for the most part, since if I'm putting that work in I'm avoiding MS at all costs).
> 
> ...


Agreed, except that I wouldn't call "legacy" something that isn't even 5 years old. Especially in such an "eco" times where everything is supposed to be recycled, reused, etc.
Also, I believe that performance penalty will be indeed substantial if you want to enable all the security features like Memory Integrity etc. Some penalties are hard to measure though (i.e. you may be measuring bandwidth while there's latency penalty etc).


----------



## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

rutra80 said:


> Agreed, except that I wouldn't call "legacy" something that isn't even 5 years old. Especially in such an "eco" times where everything is supposed to be recycled, reused, etc.
> Also, I believe that performance penalty will be indeed substantial if you want to enable all the security features like Memory Integrity etc. Some penalties are hard to measure though (i.e. you may be measuring bandwidth while there's latency penalty etc).


The question isn't whether you want to enable the security features, but rather whether Microsoft will continue to allow you to disable them. Looking at what they did to updates and now online accounts, I'm inclined to say the answer is "no".


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 3, 2021)

RoutedScripter said:


> Alternate reality: Roadmap 2022: Windows XP Remastered



... If only. I'd have that with a few of the UI features from the newer OS versions (like Aero snap, for example). 

I'm still pissed they changed the normal behavior of the backspace key in Explorer in Windows 7 lol


----------



## shovenose (Dec 3, 2021)

My one computer new enough to support it officially is a Lenovo laptop I use as a Plex server. I downgraded back to 10 because despite selecting never go to sleep or hibernate in settings Win11 would hibernate at some random point.


----------



## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

shovenose said:


> My one computer new enough to support it officially is a Lenovo laptop I use as a Plex server. I downgraded back to 10 because despite selecting never go to sleep or hibernate in settings Win11 would hibernate at some random point.


Strange behavior indeed, but I thought you'd keep a server in wake-on-lan mode or smth.


----------



## rutra80 (Dec 3, 2021)

shovenose said:


> My one computer new enough to support it officially is a Lenovo laptop I use as a Plex server. I downgraded back to 10 because despite selecting never go to sleep or hibernate in settings Win11 would hibernate at some random point.


Even funnier is that my wife's Windows 11 laptop intermittently wakes up for a second or so to do hell knows what, probably querying if there are new News and weather to show immediately when she wakes it up


----------



## trparky (Dec 3, 2021)

Considering how I'd have to use third-party software (StartAllBack) to get Windows 11 to be anywhere close to being useful when compared to that of Windows 10, I don't blame people for not upgrading. The whole UI seems like someone went on a redesign spree yet forgot to re-add all the important things that we've had for nearly three decades. It's not at all polished and there's still lots of bugs. Yes, I acknowledge that Microsoft is fixing and improving things with Windows 11 and it'll soon become on par feature-wise with Windows 10 soon but that only lends credence to the idea that if the UI wasn't ready, why release the damn thing? So yes, I don't blame people for not upgrading to what is essentially a half-baked product.


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 3, 2021)

trparky said:


> Microsoft is fixing and improving things with Windows 11 and it'll soon become on par feature-wise with Windows 10 soon but that only lends credence to the idea that if the UI wasn't ready, why release the damn thing?


Let's be honest, the Start Menu was fine as it was in Windows 7. Or even better, XP. Windows 10 is just meh, and 11 made it worse.


----------



## bug (Dec 3, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Let's be honest, the Start Menu was fine as it was in Windows 7. Or even better, XP. Windows 10 is just meh, and 11 made it worse.


Let's be honest, I haven't been using the start menu since I discovered Win+Q. They can revert that to the Win8 looks and I wouldn't care.


----------



## RealKGB (Dec 3, 2021)

Absolute shocker.
It's almost like Microsoft should _fix their crap_ before releasing an OS, that at best, is still in early beta stage.
They released the OS with Snipping Tool broken somehow, their "File Explorer update for Windows 11" was a shell extension that can be disabled with a few commands, their Android support didn't release with the OS and has been delayed to 2022, the taskbar is centered without activation so you have to home in on the start button instead of just dragging to the side, etc.

Essentially it's Windows 8 all over again, where they made it nice for touchscreens but forgot a lot of people don't have touchscreens. Similar to Amazon's Kindle (non-Fire) update where they made the UI a lot like the app, but didn't realize most Kindles don't act like phone touchscreens?


----------



## dayne878 (Dec 3, 2021)

I'm not surprised by this survey. When Windows 10 came out I was under the impression it was the "final" version and they would do it as a live service model (like they would update it 1-2 times per year to keep improving it). They'd be better off just renaming it "Windows" and just updating it every year or whatever instead of changing versions every few years.

I tried Windows 11 but had too many problems (like a disappearing taskbar) and I went back to Windows 10 with no regrets whatsoever. I won't switch to 11 until I am forced to.


----------



## Vayra86 (Dec 3, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> Ok, I don't see a contradiction there. I said the same thing in both the posts. If you want a simple workaround just Google "windows 11 no TPM build" ~ that easy enough for the plebs?
> 
> It would be a problem if MS enforced that but clearly they're not doing it.



So its required - or Intended - design. Like 'required minimum specs' with applications, Im sure you can work around it, but the software owner then basically places you out of official support. Shit failing or buggy because you miss the checkbox or actual TPM module is bound to happen. So it IS a requirement to have the intended experience. 

Enforcing isnt the issue here.

Do you know why I never suffer any Windows shenanigans? I dont tinker with it. Use as intended keeps you within regular troubleshooting steps if anything ever fails. That, and maximum delay on updates. 11 fails on both counts atm.


----------



## Psychoholic (Dec 3, 2021)

I have been on windows 11 since i picked up my 12900k on launch day.
Switched over to "get the most" out of my 12900k and expected teething issues with win11 (or the new cpu arch) but its been flawless.

I hardly ever use the start menu, and on windows 10 I was using software called "taskbarX" to center all my icons, so centered by default is not much different on win11.

I'm definitely in the minority, actually enjoying win11, that said.. if it wasnt a free upgrade i probably would have stuck with win10.


----------



## demian_vi (Dec 3, 2021)

I was really looking forward to install Win11 early like i did with Win10, but not being able to disable combination of tabs and drag and drop is a dealbreaker. 
daily tasks have become much more troublesome cause of this on my laptop, so I will wait until all these changes are fixed before upgrading.


----------



## jmeistr (Dec 3, 2021)

I reverted back to Win 10 after 30min. Win 11 felt a lot less user friendly and filled with bugs.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Dec 3, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> As for me, I don't need another crappy Start menu to fix the current crappy one. Just bring back any Start menu from between Windows 95 and Windows 7, and I'll be happy, thank you very much.


It's called Start11. Im using it and im also using another app to bring back my taskbar options like they were on Windows 10 but the name eludes me atm. 

Windows 11 is pretty much working flawless for me and I have no issues.


----------



## sil3ntearth (Dec 3, 2021)

I've gone back and forth between Windows 10 and 11 on my machine.  I'm back on 10 21H2 right now, because I just don't care for 11.  Plus, there are still quite a few random bugs that I run into from time to time.  Unless there's a legit reason for people to upgrade (directstorage would be a start), nobody will.  There's just no reason to really.


----------



## AugeK (Dec 3, 2021)

I switched to 11 a couple of weeks ago, no hassle so far.
Ryzen 7 3800 and ASRock 450 board.


----------



## mechtech (Dec 3, 2021)

Maybe cause most people can’t upgrade cause pc over 3 years old.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 3, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> I like having the control panel still, but Microsoft is intent on removing it with W11.


Then why would they enhance access to it? Accessing the classic control panel is MUCH easier in 11 than 10.


----------



## Mysteoa (Dec 3, 2021)

Where is the "no Recommended" option, Microsoft? Stop trying to push your way of doing thing. Many people have specifically requested the option to remove it entirely, and you just didn't want to commit.


----------



## Agentbb007 (Dec 3, 2021)

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Then why would they enhance access to it? Accessing the classic control panel is MUCH easier in 11 than 10.











						Next Windows 11 update will kill more Control Panel pages
					

Windows 11 is likely to get major design improvements in the fall of 2022 and we’re already started receiving builds from the development channel. Microsoft recently shipped Windows 11 Build 22509 with much-needed improvements for the Start Menu, taskbar and changes to the Control Panel. Windows...




					www.windowslatest.com


----------



## LiveOrDie (Dec 3, 2021)

Windows 11 is old news I'm waiting for Windows 12 should be a few months away.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 3, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Next Windows 11 update will kill more Control Panel pages
> 
> 
> Windows 11 is likely to get major design improvements in the fall of 2022 and we’re already started receiving builds from the development channel. Microsoft recently shipped Windows 11 Build 22509 with much-needed improvements for the Start Menu, taskbar and changes to the Control Panel. Windows...
> ...


You need to actually read that article. The devil is in the details.


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 3, 2021)

I did read it, what makes you think I didn't?


----------



## zlobby (Dec 3, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> Windows 11 your computer seems to be running virus free also we've reinstalled Minecraft and Candy Crush and added them to your Start Menu again along with the other stuff you uninstalled good effort nice try.


Even M$ admitted that it's no longer 'My Computer'. It's now 'This PC' because for them it's just that, an another PC.



TheinsanegamerN said:


> Windows 11 changes the UI, which is an immediate non starter for many. It doesnt support 7th gen or older platforms, which wipes out a LOT of legacy hardware. It needs TPM 2.0, which wipes out yet more of the applicable hardware. It offers nothing to the end user in terms of useful software updates or features. Is it any surprise people dont touch the damn thing?
> 
> And guys, look, lets gets oen thing clear here. Can the TPM requirement be worked around? Absolutely, just like windows 10 can be tweaked to boot on a pentium III. That does not mean the vast majority of users will do that. Most users do not know how to bypass TPM 2.0, fewer want to try and modify windows 11 so it will boot. Of the tiny percentage of end users who DO know how to do this, even fewer want to. Could I bypass the requirements ot get this to load on my PC? absolutely. Do I want to? HELL NO. If I wanted to tweak and bypass stuff to get my OS to work, I'd use linux (which I do, for the most part, since if I'm putting that work in I'm avoiding MS at all costs).
> 
> ...


Mobile 2700U runs the so called 'enchanced security' pretty well by default, i.e. HVCI, SLAT, TPM2.0, etc. Yet, M$ claim it can't work with Win 11... Fat middle finger at you, M$!


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 3, 2021)

Mysteoa said:


> Where is the "no Recommended" option, Microsoft? Stop trying to push your way of doing thing. Many people have specifically requested the option to remove it entirely, and you just didn't want to commit.


You can disable it, but you get an empty half of start menu.


lexluthermiester said:


> You need to actually read that article. The devil is in the details.


Yep, slow-going process, but it's inevitable.

What I'd really like to see is the ability to have multiple Settings windows open. Just the one is really bad.


----------



## Auxityne (Dec 3, 2021)

Microsoft's CPU compatibility cutoff caused me to check out of Windows 11 completely. Even if I build a Zen 4 system next year, it'll have Windows 10. I refuse to have anything to do with 11.


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## Mysteoa (Dec 3, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> You can disable it, but you get an empty half of start menu.


I know, I have been looking at it since the beta and I have given feedback in the hub.


----------



## skizzo (Dec 3, 2021)

when I think  of flop and Windows in the same sentence.....here is screen shot of your new OS desktop






I didn't even start using Windows 10 until around 2018 lol and I only plan to to upgrade to 11 if I get a new system in years or if some game I got to play makes it a non negotiable requirement.


----------



## shovenose (Dec 3, 2021)

bug said:


> Strange behavior indeed, but I thought you'd keep a server in wake-on-lan mode or smth.


Meh, it's not mission critical but it's definitely annoying when I'm asleep or at my day job and Windows 11 decides shutting down my computer whenever it darn well pleases is more important than whatever I'm running on it.


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## zlobby (Dec 3, 2021)

shovenose said:


> Meh, it's not mission critical but it's definitely annoying when I'm asleep or at my day job and Windows 11 decides shutting down my computer whenever it darn well pleases is more important than whatever I'm running on it.


Shhhh! You're using it wrong! Stop with the unfounded hatred already!


----------



## Slizzo (Dec 3, 2021)

CrAsHnBuRnXp said:


> It's called Start11. Im using it and im also using another app to bring back my taskbar options like they were on Windows 10 but the name eludes me atm.
> 
> Windows 11 is pretty much working flawless for me and I have no issues.



I, too, use Start 11. I used Start 8 when I was running Windows 8 and 8.1, I enjoyed the options it brought me. Start 11 is great and brought back my old Start screen as well as the right click menu on the taskbar.


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## Tartaros (Dec 3, 2021)

My experience so far has been install Start11, move start menu to the left and disable new right click menu. So it's like nothing has changed to me xDD

Apart from that, I'm pleased with it. I don't know if I'm suggested or something but I feel it snappier than 10. The new Edge it's good too.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 3, 2021)

Seems I'm going against the grain, but I like Windows 11, minus the TPM/SecureBoot & hardware requirements nonsense which, let's be honest, are easily worked around.


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## seth1911 (Dec 3, 2021)

I saw today in a local supermarket a laptop with 8GB and i3 for 599€ but the best at the end for Home Useres it was 10 in the S Mode, for 599€ 


Nah i dont need win 11, im only need win 10 ltsc for some FTP and Work Software.
But ill change my main system in my holiday back to Debian and make another system for FTP and Work only


----------



## Tartaros (Dec 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Seems I'm going against the grain, but I like Windows 11, minus the TPM/SecureBoot & hardware requirements nonsense which, let's be honest, are easily worked around.


Does the tpm thing affect something performance wise?


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Dec 3, 2021)

Tartaros said:


> Does the tpm thing affect something performance wise?


Nope. Just security.


----------



## ironwoodcall (Dec 3, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> I like having the control panel still, but Microsoft is intent on removing it with W11.


I'm running Win11 and still have it... do you think they're planning on removing it in a patch later?


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Dec 3, 2021)

ironwoodcall said:


> I'm running Win11 and still have it... do you think they're planning on removing it in a patch later?


They said they were going to remove it in Windows 10 in like 1909 or something. Never did. I dont see it going anywhere any time soon.


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## nienorgt (Dec 3, 2021)

I have W11 since the Preview, but I might have stayed on W10 if I would have knew that Microsoft would indeed keep the uncostomizable Start Menu and Taskbar. I don't understand how this dumbing down on features on all accounts was planned from the get go.


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## Hattu (Dec 3, 2021)

Nope. I'm not going to "upgrade" nor "update." Too much hustle, since my cpu is "too old", like Ryzen 1800X... Just installed W10 from fresh a few days ago, since it wouldn't update anything above version 1909. No matter what i've tried.

I think technically the only obstacle between Win11 and me is my current CPU. And right now i'm thinking that's enough for not to do anything about it.


----------



## mechtech (Dec 3, 2021)

Karti said:


> Lets see..
> - *more force on using a online account, you are literaly blocked from many things if you bypass their requirments and make a offline acc*
> - more resource intensive on lower tier hardware - even if it all fits the requirments and you are "inside cpu generation list" that they gave us some time ago
> - more telemetry and sucking of our data
> ...


Really?  that's lame if true


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## Minus Infinity (Dec 3, 2021)

Funny that a lot of tech site are talking up Windows 11 and it's relative success already, obviously don't want to get on their bad side. Still a just dumbed down W10 beta with a few improvements for storage that could have been rolled out to Windows 10 21H2, with a bogus TPM requirement for DRM infestation.


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 3, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Seems I'm going against the grain, but I like Windows 11, minus the TPM/SecureBoot & hardware requirements nonsense which, let's be honest, are easily worked around.


And that's perfectly alright. Myself I have to complain about the crappy state of affairs of the Start Menu, but that comes from Windows 10, so it's old news and repetitive from me.


ironwoodcall said:


> I'm running Win11 and still have it... do you think they're planning on removing it in a patch later?


Nope, it will likely take a few more years for Microsoft to migrate everything to the Settings app. Hell, it's likely that only with Windows 12 they manage to finish the job, IMO.


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## Caring1 (Dec 3, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> Nope, it will likely take a few more years for Microsoft to migrate everything to the Settings app. Hell, it's likely that only with Windows 12 they manage to finish the job, IMO.


They just keep dumbing it down and taking away control from the end user.
It started when they made "My PC" into "This PC" almost like they own it now, you no longer are in charge.


----------



## Guwapo77 (Dec 3, 2021)

MEC-777 said:


> Guess I'm one of the lucky ones that hasn't had any issues so far? I waited until it had been out for a while and after some major fixes were implemented and it's been fine (knock on wood). So idk... I don't use the start menu much either so that doesn't bother me much. I think some people like to complain for the sake of complaining and jumping on the band wagon, so to speak. I'm also running it on my Ryzen laptop and Ryzen gaming rig with no discernable performance issues, what-so-ever.


I'm right there with you.  I've only recently installed it (fresh install) and I haven't had any problems so far.


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## citizenwimberly (Dec 4, 2021)

Yah I upgraded. Will soon be going back to 10. They truly did flop on it. The software just sucks with hardware and constantly glitches. Just terrible.


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## persondb (Dec 4, 2021)

Honestly, aside from all other stuff that puts me off, just the UI alone is enough to keep me in W10.

I actually like Windows 10 start menu and the rest of the UI. While Windows 11 looks and works like an abomination.


----------



## matar (Dec 4, 2021)

I agree , i am still on windows 10 and not planning to upgrade until i see some windows 10 features back.


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## R0H1T (Dec 4, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> You sound like MS rep


And a lot of forum dwellers here sound like children cribbing about MS being mean or mad to them 


bug said:


> Which Windows would that be? 98? 2000? XP? Vista? 7? 8? 10?
> 
> Superior is in the eye of the user, the point is you don't change UI just to make it look like you have a whole shiny new OS.


The "platform" so I guess all of them? Unless you want to point at specific point(s) in history when it lagged Mac ecosystem?

You must be new to Windows then because the last "major" UI overhaul was with *win8 *~ it's at best an evolution since then.


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## DaveJNMC (Dec 4, 2021)

What is Microsoft doing, I've got 6 pieces of kit and not one of them is compatible with Windows 11. What bs is this.


----------



## Miguel Rainho (Dec 4, 2021)

I had to uninstall win 11 from my laptops, I have a i7 10th gen, 16gb ddr4 ram, intel iris 1gb gpu, 1tb ssd, everytime  i connect my hdmi with my projector, win 11 uninstalls my gpu drivers, does not matter what I do, reinstalled win 10 pro, hdmi Port working 100%


----------



## Prima.Vera (Dec 4, 2021)

To be honest. It's not better than Win10, it's not worst. It runs the same, no big changes. Looks more like a Win 10 theme, than a brand new OS....


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 4, 2021)

bug said:


> the point is you don't change UI just to make it look like you have a whole shiny new OS.


Exactly that. I wasn't joking when I said I would be happy with any Start menu from Windows 95 all the way up to 7. The one in Windows 10 is okay, but 8 is a big no-no.



R0H1T said:


> *Except when it's not broke don't fix it!* Windows has been arguably the more superior platform to Mac for eons, you don't want to break it just because someone likes or doesn't like the new UI


Microsoft themselves have been trying pretty hard to "fix" (=break) the perfectly working Start menu just to please the handful of Windows tablet users of the world (all 4 of them) ever since Windows 8. They kind of got it working again in Windows 10, but for the love of God they couldn't leave it alone for 11.


----------



## TheDeeGee (Dec 4, 2021)

Calmmo said:


> Steam hardware survey says otherwise. Higher than you'd think in such a short amount of time.
> 
> View attachment 227432


Steam ain't world wide genius, it's just the platform.



persondb said:


> Honestly, aside from all other stuff that puts me off, just the UI alone is enough to keep me in W10.
> 
> I actually like Windows 10 start menu and the rest of the UI. While Windows 11 looks and works like an abomination.


I'm perfectly fine with the Win 10 start menu as well.

The one in Win 11 looks terrible to use without the actual program list. Not mention the right click context menu needing 2-3 clicks to get to 7-Zip and what not, who thought that was a good idea?


----------



## R0H1T (Dec 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Microsoft themselves have been trying pretty hard to "fix" (=break) the* perfectly working Start menu just to please the handful of Windows tablet users of the world *(all 4 of them) ever since Windows 8. They kind of got it working again in Windows 10, but for the love of God they couldn't leave it alone for 11.


That is an issue but the thing is MS is trying to make a similar UI for everything from desktops, notebooks, netbooks & tablets. Even for Windows on ARM it's basically the same ~ which obviously they could avoid but then desktop users would probably complain about those Windows tablets or 2 in 1's having lack of "desktop" feel. I personally hate the convoluted UI & missing (old) control panel settings. Start menu is not that big a deal for me, but those missing control panel stuff 

The issue with MS is that they have over a billion active users, maybe twice as many with bootleg copies, & moving away from win7 or tablets is hard. They should ideally do a separate touch oriented OS, why they haven't at least tried that ~ who knows? OEM's will have a major say in this though & it's quite likely a monetary decision because a lot of *users don't like completely new & unfamiliar* which'll hurt device sales.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 4, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> MS lacks vision required to design a new OS from scratch and what we get instead are botched attempts at merging multiple branches over code that's been there for decades. They had UI designed for tablets, then someone saw a screenshot of this or a demo and said "Ok, let's put this in 11" without considering how will it work on regular displays that are 1080p or even lower res. Once eleven got released someone else decided that Office 365 needs to have the same type of design applied to it so now actual real estate when using any office app is greatly reduced because everything is 40% bigger.
> I could design better UI in Paint.
> Before:
> View attachment 227429
> ...


Yep that's insane wastage, you can forgive a voluntary freeware app developer for been lazy, but not a billion dollar corporation.  All they need to do is design it for the desktop first and foremost, and do a tablet theme, but they stubbornly insist on one UI for both.

Even more crazy is that Windows is their market, yet they keep trying to push their software for a market they minnows in.


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 4, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> That is an issue but the thing is MS is trying to make a similar UI for everything from desktops, notebooks, netbooks & tablets.


That will never work, imo. A desktop computer with a full-size keyboard and a mouse is a completely different ecosystem than a touch-screen tablet or phone. They need entirely different UIs altogether.



R0H1T said:


> I personally hate the convoluted UI & missing (old) control panel settings. Start menu is not that big a deal for me, but those missing control panel stuff


I'm OK with Windows 10's UI, and while I originally didn't like the idea of the new Settings menu instead of the old Control Panel, I've got used to it. There are still a few things left that I do in the Control Panel, but I can find my way around the Settings menu, too.



R0H1T said:


> They should ideally do a separate touch oriented OS, why they haven't at least tried that ~ who knows?


I totally agree.



R0H1T said:


> a lot of *users don't like completely new & unfamiliar* which'll hurt device sales.


That's why they should leave the UI alone... or at least develop two UIs - one for desktop, and one for tablets. They could do it with minimal resources, sort of like how you can swap between a normal and full-screen Start menu in Windows 10.


----------



## Bomby569 (Dec 4, 2021)

If you guys dislike W11 you're going to be ok with the all new W11.1, but wait a bit more until the W12 were all your complaints are answered... except a complete dark mode that is.


----------



## R0H1T (Dec 4, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> yet they keep trying to push their software for a market they minnows in.


It's not necessarily MS, though you could argue with the surface lineup they're also part of the problem, but OEM's make a ton through touch based Windows devices & licensing there is still a major avenue of *$$$* for MS. OEM's want something to compete with Apple, or Android, & MS can't say no.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 4, 2021)

Aretak said:


> The UI really is a non-issue. It sucks, but you just install StartAllBack and it's gone. It fixes the Start menu, it fixes the taskbar, it fixes the context menus and can even put Explorer back to how it looked in Windows 10 (or even Windows 7) if you prefer that. The hardware requirements are also trivial to bypass. Rufus will automatically patch them out if you use it to create the installation media. I'm running it without my TPM or Secure Boot enabled, and have had no problems. It doesn't complain about anything and updates work just fine.
> 
> Beyond that, it's just Windows 10 with some minor improvements. It's somewhat lighter than Windows 10 and uses less RAM, comparing my custom debloating of both. It also outright allows you to disable telemetry via Group Policy if you're using Education or Enterprise (I installed the latter), which is something Windows 10 doesn't allow, with even those editions sending "necessary" data. I haven't encountered any more bugs than I ever had with Windows 10 either. Not that that's a high bar, given Microsoft's endless beta approach to Windows these days, but still.
> 
> It's really not a bad version of Windows once you fix Microsoft's boneheaded design decisions. On the whole I like it more than I ever liked Windows 10. In an ideal world I'd still prefer to be using Windows 7, but that becomes less and less viable, even with BypassESU.


Or you could just turn on the security features in 10 that 11 has on by default and you get the same with Windows 10? less work than fixing the UI and installing a new OS.

The only actual new feature I seen in 11 is for Alder Lake users.


----------



## Tech guy (Dec 4, 2021)

Aretak said:


> The UI really is a non-issue. It sucks, but you just install StartAllBack and it's gone. It fixes the Start menu, it fixes the taskbar, it fixes the context menus and can even put Explorer back to how it looked in Windows 10 (or even Windows 7) if you prefer that. The hardware requirements are also trivial to bypass. Rufus will automatically patch them out if you use it to create the installation media. I'm running it without my TPM or Secure Boot enabled, and have had no problems. It doesn't complain about anything and updates work just fine.
> 
> Beyond that, it's just Windows 10 with some minor improvements. It's somewhat lighter than Windows 10 and uses less RAM, comparing my custom debloating of both. It also outright allows you to disable telemetry via Group Policy if you're using Education or Enterprise (I installed the latter), which is something Windows 10 doesn't allow, with even those editions sending "necessary" data. I haven't encountered any more bugs than I ever had with Windows 10 either. Not that that's a high bar, given Microsoft's endless beta approach to Windows these days, but still.
> 
> It's really not a bad version of Windows once you fix Microsoft's boneheaded design decisions. On the whole I like it more than I ever liked Windows 10. In an ideal world I'd still prefer to be using Windows 7, but that becomes less and less viable, even with BypassESU.



The taskbar can be moved back to the left in Windows 11 settings.
move the taskbar left, right-click anywhere on the taskbar and select *Taskbar Settings* from the pop-up menu—if you can call a menu with one item in it a menu. This will take you directly to the Personalization > Taskbar screen. 

Here you can add/remove some of the items that appear on the taskbar, such as Search, Task view, Widgets, and Chat, which can be useful for keeping it clean. 

The option you're looking for can be found at the bottom of this screen: *Taskbar behaviors*. Expand this section by clicking on it, and then set the taskbar alignment to 'Left' and you're done.
There are lots of tricks, right click on the main window icon opens up options, there are a bunch of personal changes you can make for making Windows 11 slick.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 4, 2021)

dyonoctis said:


> Multiscreen memory ? a more intuitive way to choose a layout to fit several windows on one screen ? The Bluetooth panel is less painful to use ? The sounds settings are finally unified ? It's not much, but win 11 did have a few qol adjustment.
> 
> Windows  2000 to XP to vista was also a big switch in design . Microsoft is also starting to feel the weight of the "One OS for all". MacOs know what it is : a desktop OS  IpadOS is a touch Os. Both platform have apps designed specifically for them.  MacOS isn't schizophrenic like Windows, when they are doing a UI overhaul they meant it, and they get through with it.
> 
> Microsoft can't do that, because nobody want a windows that cannot do "classic windows" stuff, so they have to develop an "hybrid OS, to rule them all." Now you might say "but how many actually own and enjoy touchscreen laptops ?" seeing at how OEM (and Microsoft himself) keep making 2-in1 laptops it seems that people are buying them, and as long as they do, Microsoft will keep making an hybrid OS.


Its basically developer needs vs users.

Ideally would be two different UI, one for desktop, and one for touch.

I brought this up with a retired developer, and he told me about an old OS he worked on in the 1990s who did this and said all the developers hated it, it been a nightmare to have two different code bases.

Thinking about the history of the internet, the same has happened as well, when mobiles were first a thing, there was two different versions of websites, and based on user agent it would display a certain one.   Now days many websites are designed for mobile devices and desktop users just have to deal with it, again because developers don't want to do the same work twice.  Also rapid updates is to favour developers as they don't like maintaining what they see as old stale code bases.

Telemetry has also contributed a lot to this, if you are one of only a few users using a feature, then expect it to go bye bye when developer looks at telemetry to see its not worth maintaining.

Some say Vista was the pinnacle of windows UI design, 3d Aero was introduced, window positions were still remembered when closing apps, high customisation, win32 UI design.


----------



## Tech guy (Dec 4, 2021)

Lycanwolfen said:


> Windows 11 is another Windows 8 in my point of view. The biggest problem MS did with Windows 8 is not follow consistency in there platform. Windows 10 fixed that. In windows 11 you notice in the settings tabs now there is no simple left hand scroll for all the options. No simple option for turning off background apps or other things for security reasons. Now in Windows 11 you have to click on every app and goto advanced then find run in background to turn it off. This is very counter productive. The kernal is actually pretty awesome in Windows 11 as I made a PE of it and wow the whole thing was small just under 300 MB. But of course the engineers make a great Kernal but then the software guys bloat it all to hell and make it so unfunctional. Now some People say they love the new Edge well its nothing but chromium with a Microsoft Logo. The problem is they again intergrated it into everything. Also first time you open it nothing but advertising. When will MS get it we all hate it.
> 
> I'm quite sure MS will fix it with 11.1 or 12 just like they had too with windows 8. You have to follow consistency and context. Stop trying to copy Apple MAC OSX.
> 
> If Microsoft really wanted to make a MACOSX clone then release a MS Unix, otherwise its just more bells and whistles.



You can turn off the ads and tips in settings. Use task scheduler to modify what runs, if you know how to use it.



bug said:


> Which Windows would that be? 98? 2000? XP? Vista? 7? 8? 10?
> 
> Superior is in the eye of the user, the point is you don't change UI just to make it look like you have a whole shiny new OS.
> 
> ...


----------



## Flanker (Dec 4, 2021)

I use 10 at work, 11 at home. There isn't much of a difference with what I do.


----------



## Daleos (Dec 4, 2021)

I couldn't really call it a flop when it's only meant to work on modern devices. It's still not ready for my AMD x570 motherboard so it's supposed to be taking over the world is anyone's guess. 

However, I'm treating it as Windows 10 consumer edition. It might be okay for those with limited needs but the quite severe nerfing of the menu and task manager are the reasons I'll be avoiding it when they get around to releasing a version for my desktop  setup.

I never liked the tiles on Windows 10 but the ability to group applications (and documents) is very useful and I have used that feature extensively on my Windows 10 machines. 

Also a big deal breaker for me is the fact you can no longer have the taskbar on a secondary display. I have three monitors. One is high quality but 60Hz display, another is a 144Hz G-Sync display. G-Sync requires it to be the primary display for it to work properly but I want my task bar on my high quality screen. 

I have no issues with the control panel disappearing but if they are going to replace it, then the replacement needs to include the advanced settings and not just the basic ones.

And please Microsoft. Sort out your login mess. I work with very small businesses. They buy off the shelf laptops but want to use them for work. Having to set up a Windows 11 (or 10) Home laptop with a Microsoft 365 login ought to be easier than it is. It doesn't need to be full Azure AD, just let them use the work m365 business creds when setting up a user for a device so they don't need two MS accounts to use their budget laptop for work.


----------



## micropage7 (Dec 4, 2021)

maybe if not M$ "pushing" the W11 through update the score gonna be lower than that


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 4, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> Also rapid updates is to favour developers as they don't like maintaining what they see as old stale code bases.
> 
> Telemetry has also contributed a lot to this, if you are one of only a few users using a feature, then expect it to go bye bye when developer looks at telemetry to see its not worth maintaining.


As much as I hate forced updates and telemetry, what you're saying makes sense.



chrcoluk said:


> Some say Vista was the pinnacle of windows UI design, 3d Aero was introduced, window positions were still remembered when closing apps, high customisation, win32 UI design.


As strange as it sounds, I actually liked Vista's 3D Aero UI. It brought something new with the widgets and stuff, while preserving original Windows functionality.


----------



## nim81 (Dec 4, 2021)

The Start menu is fine. There are some tweaks that could be made, but I prefer it to the W10 one, like most parts of Windows 11. It's the taskbar which is a much bigger issue - not being able to drag and drop things onto it is a massive pain, especially on a laptop with a small screen. I never noticed how much I used that functionality until it was removed.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 4, 2021)

Tartaros said:


> Does the tpm thing affect something performance wise?


Not that I can tell. In fact it would only make sense that by-passing it would improve performance as the runtimes and services for TPM/SecureBoot do not run.



mechtech said:


> Really?  that's lame if true


The goal seems to be to migrate all of the configuration options over to the "Settings". IF they do it right, it won't be a bad thing. However, a lot of people are still not going to like it. There's nothing wrong with the Control Panel way of doing thing except that it doesn't fit in with the App-centric and Touch-centric direction microsoft wants to go. You'd think that they would figure out that no one wants to go in those directions for a DESKTOP OS.



nim81 said:


> The Start menu is fine. There are some tweaks that could be made, but I prefer it to the W10 one


I'll agree with this. It's better than the one in 10, but that doesn't make it good. Open Shell is how I roll and that will not be changing anytime soon.


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 4, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'll agree with this. It's better than the one in 10, but that doesn't make it good. Open Shell is how I roll and that will not be changing anytime soon.
> View attachment 227577


A 4-colour Windows logo, a "Programs" tab and "This PC" in the Start menu like in the good old days? What kind of magic is this?


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 4, 2021)

I'm on Win 11, no problems at all. i'm running a i7 12700k though so feel i need to for the scheduler to deal with the E cores. I have no problems with it, i use startallback to sort the start menu etc.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> A 4-colour Windows logo, a "Programs" tab and "This PC" in the Start menu like in the good old days? What kind of magic is this?


No magic. Just a properly configured Open Shell.









						Releases · Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu
					

Classic Shell Reborn. Contribute to Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com


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## Arctucas (Dec 4, 2021)

"Windows 11 a Flop, Survey Claims Less Than 1% Upgraded"

I have to admit that I am shocked ... close to 1% actually upgraded?


----------



## nim81 (Dec 4, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not that I can tell. In fact it would only make sense that by-passing it would improve performance as the runtimes and services for TPM/SecureBoot do not run.
> 
> 
> The goal seems to be to migrate all of the configuration options over to the "Settings". IF they do it right, it won't be a bad thing. However, a lot of people are still not going to like it. There's nothing wrong with the Control Panel way of doing thing except that it doesn't fit in with the App-centric and Touch-centric direction microsoft wants to go. You'd think that they would figure out that no one wants to go in those directions for a DESKTOP OS.
> ...


Just curious, but what do you prefer about the Open Shell one? As far as I can see, the W11 start menu can be set up with all the same shortcuts you have there, with the same number of clicks to get them


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 4, 2021)

nim81 said:


> Just curious, but what do you prefer about the Open Shell one?


Everything? It's very configurable, lots of options and it runs very lean & clean.


nim81 said:


> As far as I can see, the W11 start menu can be set up with all the same shortcuts you have there,


No it can't. If the default Windows 11 Start menu could be configured like the screenshot I posted above, I would have simply done so instead using an extra utility.


----------



## Athlonite (Dec 4, 2021)

i updated to Win11 gave it a couple of days use and very quickly downgraded back to win10 my god what POS UI all they needed to do was update the underlying system and leave the bloody UI alone


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 4, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> No magic. Just a properly configured Open Shell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does it work with Windows 10 as well?


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 4, 2021)

I don't see what the problem is with win 11 myself. there are apps to change the looks, and otherwise its very stable.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> Does it work with Windows 10 as well?


It works with everything from 7 on up. It's extremely useful for Windows 8/8.1!


----------



## mechtech (Dec 4, 2021)

Well well









						GA-AX370-Gaming K3 (rev. 1.0) Support | Motherboard - GIGABYTE Global
					

Lasting Quality from GIGABYTE.GIGABYTE Ultra Durable™ motherboards bring together a unique blend of features and technologies that offer users the absolute ...




					www.gigabyte.com
				




bios update........interesting

"Change default status of AMD PSP fTPM to Enabled for addressing basic Windows 11 requirements"



lexluthermiester said:


> It works with everything from 7 on up. It's extremely useful for Windows 8/8.1!


Doesn't Start 11 do the same basically?  Also, very nicely configured start menu/desktop.  Now I want that lol




__





						Stardock Start11: Restore the Classic Start Menu in Windows 10 and 11.
					

Start11 restores the Classic Start Menu in Windows 11.



					www.stardock.com


----------



## AusWolf (Dec 4, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> It works with everything from 7 on up. It's extremely useful for Windows 8/8.1!


Thanks for the link, I'll have to try it. All I'm gonna need now is a Windows 98 skin.


----------



## AsRock (Dec 4, 2021)

AusWolf said:


> _"Windows 11 requires a trusted platform module (TPM 2.0), which disqualifies PCs older than 2018 for upgrades, unless the user is willing to try out workarounds to the limitation."_
> 
> How many people do you think are willing to try workarounds just to get Windows 11 (that they don't need anyway)?
> 
> ...



Made me think of Windows 10 GodMode hahaha,  it's just one icon that goes to a lot of the control panel stuff.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 4, 2021)

mechtech said:


> Doesn't Start 11 do the same basically?  Also, very nicely configured start menu/desktop.  Now I want that lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But Open Shell is open source, doesn't spy on you and is free.

Now let's think for a moment.
$6 per year for a Start Menu replacement that is closed source and reports your usage activity to the dev

VS

$0 for a Start Menu replacement that is open source and does NOT spy on you...

I don't know, that's a tough choice...
/s



AusWolf said:


> Thanks for the link, I'll have to try it. All I'm gonna need now is a Windows 98 skin.


One catch is that you need change the Start Button for it to show up on Windows 11. This is a result of a code change. But once you change the Start Button, it works perfectly fine. The Open Shell devs are working on a fix.


----------



## ARF (Dec 4, 2021)

WonkoTheSaneUK said:


> WTF? Why have they hidden "Rename" two sub-menus down??



Because the alien overlords treat us as slaves (and Microsoft being their puppet on strings).
You guys rightfully so complain but there is also politics in the technology. Which means that they try whatever they can to make the thing slower. Because if they make the perfect OS, that will be the true final version ever. Because there will be nothing to cry about and no fixes needed.

Microsoft is stupid and evil..


----------



## Ravenmaster (Dec 4, 2021)

The funny thing is, windows 11 is basically windows 10 with a lick of paint and a few icons shuffled around.


----------



## Ripcord (Dec 4, 2021)

Its a flop because every other version of windows has been 100% backward compatible. windows 11 isn't


----------



## ARF (Dec 4, 2021)

It is also quite possible that Microsoft had received a decent financial aid from Intel to launch the cancelled Windows 10X rebranded as Windows "11" in order to boost or try to boost the 12th gen Core line sales.
You know Intel-Microsoft work closely, no wonder that AMD didn't get exclusive Ryzen proper support.

When AMD heavily outsells Intel in the free market (DIY) outside of the dirty corporate affairs of the OEMs, the likes of Dell, Lenovo, HP and other crap outhere.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 4, 2021)

Ravenmaster said:


> The funny thing is, windows 11 is basically windows 10 with a lick of paint and a few icons shuffled around.


That's like saying Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with a new coat of paint, which is complete nonsense.



Ripcord said:


> Its a flop because every other version of windows has been 100% backward compatible. windows 11 isn't


Incorrect. I have had NO compatibility issues with Windows 11. In fact, I have had an easier time running some programs on 11 than on 10.


----------



## ARF (Dec 4, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's like saying Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with a new coat of paint, which is complete nonsense.



Windows 10 is a fixed Windows 8. Windows "11" is a modified Windows 10 with missing features and lower productivity performance..


----------



## Adam Krazispeed (Dec 4, 2021)

GIVE ME WINDOWS 7 LIKE UI AND ILL USE IT IF NOT IM GOING TO LINUX, AKA POP OS FOR GAMING SO SCREW MICRO$OFT!!!!!   THEY DONT HAVE THE OS SPACE ANYMORE!!!!



lexluthermiester said:


> That's like saying Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with a new coat of paint, which is complete nonsense.
> 
> 
> Incorrect. I have had NO compatibility issues with Windows 11. In fact, I have had an easier time running some programs on 11 than on 10.


well i have and i had a dual boot to check out win11 and i freeking HATE IT.. Iv had apps that kept crashing (that dont in Win10 or 7)  and i despise th damn start menu.... I want win 7 start menu and explorer UI back and STOP FORCING MY DRIVERS TO UPDATE (ESPECIALLY MY REALTEK HD AUDIO DRIVERS) THE MS DRIVER DOENOT GIVE ME EQUALIZER SETTING AND DRIVER AUTO UPDATES REMOVE ALL MY SAVED SETTING ONLY TO HAV TO KEEP REVERTING EVERYTHING!!!! PHUCK MS IM DONE!!! GOIN TO POP OS FOR GAMING!!!! LINUX WIL TAKE OVER MS IF YOU DONT STOP PHUCKING AROUND!!!!!

not to mention i had win 11 installed on my 5800x Ryzen and Radeon RX 6800XT for like a week...
 and played a game that crashed hard (win 10 never did) and on reboot i get BSOD on my win11 saying " critical Process died "  and just restarts... only my win10 will boot n now (both on same drive, so i now it not my SSD)  so im done with win11 for @ minimum 6 months, to  a year.... they should have waited till Jan-july 2022, but  no they had to rush it out just win 10 with some sh!t removed and a new skin.. that look too much like Mac OS to me so Phuck MS im done!!!!

and if you look at alot of default MS drivers especialy for cpu or most if not all (except thos you install like AMD/Nvidia GPU/Chipset Drivers etc)  all MS driver still show (2006) as the drivers date with wwin10 or 11s VErsion number ..lol LAzy MFers


----------



## Jism (Dec 4, 2021)

ARF said:


> It is also quite possible that Microsoft had received a decent financial aid from Intel to launch the cancelled Windows 10X rebranded as Windows "11" in order to boost or try to boost the 12th gen Core line sales.
> You know Intel-Microsoft work closely, no wonder that AMD didn't get exclusive Ryzen proper support.
> 
> When AMD heavily outsells Intel in the free market (DIY) outside of the dirty corporate affairs of the OEMs, the likes of Dell, Lenovo, HP and other crap outhere.



Pretty much possible.

I just hate it that the majority of users now is a "beta tester" on default. You got a BSOD after an update? Good luck solving it!

Ive disabled everything in regards of updates and telemetry in W10. I'm still on 1903. Refuse to update. And for good cause. Last update caused my stored passwords in Windows FTP to be removed completely. And those where like 100 stores passwords. Great job!


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 4, 2021)

Jism said:


> Last update caused my stored passwords in Windows FTP to be removed completely. And those where like 100 stores passwords. Great job!


At least with passwords theres a chance you can remember a lot of them and store them again.
An update made all the pictures I had disappear, gone for good, the pics folder was empty after.


----------



## saikamaldoss (Dec 5, 2021)

Right click on filed and desktop is messed up and start menu messed up, task manager removed from task bar and most of all trying to unify interface like they did with windows8. No wonder. Hope they stick to win10 shell and win 11 under the hood.


----------



## Slizzo (Dec 5, 2021)

Tartaros said:


> Does the tpm thing affect something performance wise?



Not really, no. I've Windows 11 installed on my X299 system, and worked around the install to get it on my Son's X99 system.


----------



## N7Commander (Dec 5, 2021)

I don't need more Pins. I need the ability to categorize my group apps. Like Office with all my office apps, config with Al my configuration apps etc.


I use 3 monitor and zero icons on desktop, I use Start menu in win10 to open my apps over my opened software avoiding the needed to minimize my apps, I am productive, this win 11 start menu its unproductive.

with this Start menu, I will never upgrade to win11.


----------



## WonkoTheSaneUK (Dec 5, 2021)

Tried it
Deleted it
Installed Kubuntu
All my most used programs are multi-platform anyway, and games run via Steam/Proton or WINE, so I'm happy.


----------



## ARF (Dec 5, 2021)

After this exceptionally bad acceptance by the public, I find it appropriate that Microsoft should stand up and excuse itself for this failure, and excuse itself for the lie that Windows 10 would be the last Windows version ever.
Windows 10 should keep received updates and should receive a new support period till at least 2035.
We don't need a new Windows other than Windows 10.

Why Microsoft Announced Windows 10 Is 'The Last Version Of Windows' (forbes.com)


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 5, 2021)

Well this thread has certainly put my first opinion that no one seems to be downgrading to shame, I guess I am not alone on my thoughts then.

The majority of the security enhancements can be enabled in 10, I feel 11 was done just to try and push people to a new UI and also an excuse to make people buy new hardware.  (4k monitors to compensate for lost real estate, and newer chips/boards for the higher TPM requirements).  Sadly I think Microsoft have longed worked with hardware vendors, it was made obvious to me when all the vendors in unison pulled their Windows 8 drivers when Microsoft decided they wanted to pretend that OS no longer existed.


----------



## cyneater (Dec 5, 2021)

Adam Krazispeed said:


> GIVE ME WINDOWS 7 LIKE UI AND ILL USE IT IF NOT IM GOING TO LINUX, AKA POP OS FOR GAMING SO SCREW MICRO$OFT!!!!!   THEY DONT HAVE THE OS SPACE ANYMORE!!!!



Agreeded ... 
Can't remember what version of unix but it used CDE similar or KDE
looks alot like windows 95... 

Most Gu's have some sort of start menu or the mac / amiga drop down at the top menu

Microsoft has tried to re-invent the wheel and failed since windows 8. 
Windows 8 ran pretty well but the crappy start menu and samba issues turned me away. 

Windows 7 I had it skined to look like 95 ... 
As long as I have a startmenu non of this 7+ bastardized so called start menu I'm happy.

Like many others looking at going to some form of linux. I just like LXDE and lubuntu seems the okayish place.
As we speak playing with LXDE based distros trying to find one I like.

and now to find a replacement for kodi as they have lost the way as well.


----------



## Kissamies (Dec 5, 2021)

Nothing to complain here, upgraded from Win10 and it has worked flawlessly. Also did a clean install on my laptop and no problems there as well.


----------



## beautyless (Dec 5, 2021)

Using Ryzen 5 2600, Windows 11 Insider, No new issues found outside what they already been in W10.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 5, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> At least with passwords theres a chance you can remember a lot of them and store them again.
> An update made all the pictures I had disappear, gone for good, the pics folder was empty after.


This is, yet again, another example of why automatic updates are total fu&*ery and need to be disabled. This is also why regular backups are important. No offense to you of course Caring1.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 5, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is, yet again, another example of why automatic updates are total fu&*ery and need to be disabled. This is also why regular backups are important. No offense to you of course Caring1.



Is there a way to turn auto updates off, so i can only do it manually?


----------



## Legacy-ZA (Dec 5, 2021)

I only upgraded to have access to direct-storage. Just how I only upgraded to Windows 10 for DX12 Ultimate. This is getting annoying, I thought they were just going to call it "Windows" from now on and update it acoordingly.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 5, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Is there a way to turn auto updates off, so i can only do it manually?


WinAeroTweaker has the option or you can disable the services yourself. Disable Background Intelligent Transfer Service and Windows Update. Windows Update Medic Service can be disabled but requires some registry fiddling.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 5, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Is there a way to turn auto updates off, so i can only do it manually?


I dont know if this will work on Win 11.

But I do the following on Win 10.

Group policy set to check for updates but not auto download.

Install wumgr, and use that for updates, its basically very similar to windows7/8 levels of control.  Including hiding updates.

One guy here claims it works fine on Win 11.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/phwfc9


----------



## defaultluser (Dec 5, 2021)

Selaya said:


> The tradition of the bust release inbetween good ones continues. Given the past track record, this doesn't surprise me at all.


*Yeah. I'm patiently awaiting the Rushed Windows 11 service Pack 2 , rebranded as Windows 12!*

Its the same move they made with both Vista (rushed-out in a record 2 years) and 8 (3 years was impressive turnaround time, givern how broke it was!)


----------



## ARF (Dec 5, 2021)

defaultluser said:


> *Yeah. I'm patiently awaiting the Rushed Windows 11 service Pack 2 , rebranded as Windows 12!*
> 
> Its the same move they made with both Vista (rushed-out in a record 2 years) and 8 (3 years was impressive turnaround time, givern how broke it was!)



Well, I think it would be better if they simply cancel the development of Windows "11", and move the performance improvements towards new Windows 10 quarterly Updates.




Tigger said:


> Is there a way to turn auto updates off, so i can only do it manually?



Err, is this a serious question?! Of course, you can.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 5, 2021)

ARF said:


> Well, I think it would be better if they simply cancel the development of Windows "11", and move the performance improvements towards new Windows 10 quarterly Updates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 i can obviously pause update for 5 weeks at a time. i mean stop them altogether.



ARF said:


> Well, I think it would be better if they simply cancel the development of Windows "11", and move the performance improvements towards new Windows 10 quarterly Updates.



Why would they do that when they already have 11 out. You don't have to use 11 after all.


----------



## INSTG8R (Dec 5, 2021)

I’m definitely in no hurry but this morning I read Oculus software currently doesn’t work on Win11 so glad I didn’t find that out the hard way.


----------



## RaceJay (Dec 5, 2021)

Microsoft needs to lower their minimum spec on CPU down to 2nd generation Intel Core...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 5, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> I dont know if this will work on Win 11.


It works. All of my Windows 11 installs are running with automatic updates disabled.



Tigger said:


> i can obviously pause update for 5 weeks at a time. i mean stop them altogether.


See my response..



RaceJay said:


> Microsoft needs to lower their minimum spec on CPU down to 2nd generation Intel Core...


Why? The work-arounds allow installation to any CPU.


----------



## RaceJay (Dec 5, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Why? The work-arounds allow installation to any CPU.


Not all people are tech savvy enough to apply those work-arounds accordingly... most just see the "This PC doesn't currently meet the minimum system requirements to run Windows 11" message and assume that they need to buy a brand new and updated system...


----------



## exodusprime1337 (Dec 6, 2021)

This is a bit disingenuous given that Lansweeper is primarily installed into a corp environment which of course won't be upgrading to Win11 right away....


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 6, 2021)

RaceJay said:


> Not all people are tech savvy enough to apply those work-arounds accordingly...


They are not difficult. It only takes bit of reading and following of directions.


----------



## Raiden85 (Dec 6, 2021)

I love settings UI refresh and rounded corners, but what I absolutely hate and that's 100% fixable with startallback thank christ. 

1: Explorer UI ribbon absolutely crap, Windows 10 ribbon design was way more useful. 

2: Have to use show more settings when right clicking to have basic options or even show the nvidia settings button, what prat designed this?

3: Right clicking on the taskbar has all the options removed so I'm forced to right click on the start button, horrible design choice. 

4: In 11 I can no longer ungroup program/folder icons on the taskbar so I'm forced to show icons instead of the individual open program/folders with their names, another horrible UI choice that the user can't even change this time like I could in 10, so rapidly switching open things on the taskbar now requires and extra step by hovering over the icon to see what's on it.  

Thankfully startallback restores all that basic functionality, but I shouldn't be forced to use a 3rd party program because of a pathetic UI experience that has worked fine for decades.  

Whoever signed off on these new UI choices that can't be changed without 3rd party software needs to be shot.


----------



## R-T-B (Dec 6, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> They are not difficult. It only takes bit of reading and following of directions.


Bold of you to assume the average consumer reads.


----------



## BluesFanUK (Dec 6, 2021)

I'll be upgrading from Windows 11 to Windows 10. What a cluster**** this is. No folder preview for things containing photos and videos is a massive PITA.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 6, 2021)

R-T-B said:


> Bold of you to assume the average consumer reads.


Then let the morons suffer. For those of us who teach, it's not our fault if the students don't listen, read and learn...


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Dec 6, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> They are not difficult. It only takes bit of reading and following of directions.


Installing linux is not difficult

Changing spark plugs is not difficult

Dissassembling and cleaning a furnace is not difficult. 

Lots of things in life are not difficult. Just because YOU can do it with your eyes shut does not mean 99% of people A) have that level of confidence and B) are interested and willing enough to put the effort in. 

And as a beside, with MS stating they will not update 11 installations installed on unsupported systems, every time a major update comes out you'll need to manually installs the update. That's taking the inconvenience of auto updates in the total wrong direction. And there is no gurarantee that MS wont break said installation later, in the same way you can run a windows 10 install on a pentium III, there is 0 guarantee you can keep it working, which is what 99% of users want.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 6, 2021)

If you install Win 11 on a unsupported system, how can you complain if it does not run properly.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 6, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Installing linux is not difficult
> 
> Changing spark plugs is not difficult
> 
> ...


Ladies & gentlemen, we are presented with a text-book strawman argument. But let's take each point in turn.



TheinsanegamerN said:


> Installing linux is not difficult


That depends on the version of Linux in question.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> Changing spark plugs is not difficult


That greatly depends on the vehicle in question.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> Dissassembling and cleaning a furnace is not difficult.


That is patently false, steamy cow-pat.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> have that level of confidence


It doesn't take a whole lot of courage to follow simple instructions. It's takes reading and comprehension of what is being read..


TheinsanegamerN said:


> are interested and willing enough to put the effort in


Then those people do not qualify in this situation anyway.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> with MS stating they will not update 11 installations installed on unsupported systems


What they are saying and what they are doing are two very different things. Not one update that has been released has failed to be applied successfully on the "unsupported" systems I'm testing. While that might change, it is very unlikely for many very good reasons.


TheinsanegamerN said:


> which is what 99% of users want


Laughable notion. You are not a god. As such you can not possibly know what "99%" of people want. And with all of the upgrade installs to "unsupported" hardware I've done in the last two months, I can confidently say you are nowhere near the 99% mark.


----------



## InVasMani (Dec 7, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> They are not difficult. It only takes bit of reading and following of directions.


Does it come with quest markers!?

Welcome to MicroQuest 11 just follow the directions and we'll set you right up on your adventure to CandyCrush re-installation over at sector seven. Did you try to uninstall Cortona you're crazy like Mary do you wanna reinstall it no oh em gee too bad we did it anyway. Would you like to upgrade your telemetry background service while you wait as we update you with the browser you don't like and lock down the system so you can't use Mozilla no sweat we're on it. At MicroQuest we pride ourselves at making your OS a treacherous adventure navigating the internet. Would like to see another pop ad followed by another in a minute every minute of course we don't care you're going to anyway! Enjoy the user experience soon you level and we'll be ready to nag you twice as quickly with updates and virus scans. Welcome to MicroQuest 11 just follow the directions and we'll set you right up on your adventure to CandyCrush where everything you installed is new again!


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 7, 2021)

InVasMani said:


> Does it come with quest markers!?
> 
> Welcome to MicroQuest 11 just follow the directions and we'll set you right up on your adventure to CandyCrush re-installation over at sector seven. Did you try to uninstall Cortona you're crazy like Mary do you wanna reinstall it no oh em gee too bad we did it anyway. Would you like to upgrade your telemetry background service while you wait as we update you with the browser you don't like and lock down the system so you can't use Mozilla no sweat we're on it. At MicroQuest we pride ourselves at making your OS a treacherous adventure navigating the internet. Would like to see another pop ad followed by another in a minute every minute of course we don't care you're going to anyway! Enjoy the user experience soon you level and we'll be ready to nag you twice as quickly with updates and virus scans. Welcome to MicroQuest 11 just follow the directions and we'll set you right up on your adventure to CandyCrush where everything you installed is new again!



I swear I read all that with Steve Ballmer's voice.

Look up Windows 1.0's commercial by Steve Ballmer, btw, it's a gem


----------



## mama (Dec 7, 2021)

My system says the update is available to install but that I will be advised when the free update will be ready.  Still waiting after three months...


----------



## bug (Dec 7, 2021)

mama said:


> My system says the update is available to install but that I will be advised when the free update will be ready.  Still waiting after three months...


Waiting for what, exactly? There's no feature to look forward for and the update isn't going away anytime soon (if ever). Personally, I'm waiting hoping Microsoft will relent on that online account requirement. I don't have a problem with telemetry, but I would rather they didn't upload my stuff onto their servers as they please.


----------



## mama (Dec 8, 2021)

I understand HDR is implemented better.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 8, 2021)

The online account it wouldnt surprise me if all the code is still in place for local accounts and they may have just removed the option from the firstrun screen.

If I am right, probably fixable with ntlite.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 8, 2021)

bug said:


> Personally, I'm waiting hoping Microsoft will relent on that online account requirement.


You don't need to. If you want a local account on Windows 11 Home, there is a proven method(aside from using Pro and staying offline during installation). Would you like a run down here?



chrcoluk said:


> If I am right, probably fixable with ntlite.


That is one option.


----------



## bug (Dec 8, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> You don't need to. If you want a local account on Windows 11 Home, there is a proven method(aside from using Pro and staying offline during installation). Would you like a run down here?


I wouldn't mind one, thank you.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Dec 8, 2021)

They need to abandon the W11 UI and start again. It's just awful in so many areas - usability is worse, clarity is worse, information density is worse, everything is buried behind more clicks, there is so much wasted space throughout the entire UI, nobody* likes it - it's a solid failure in every way possible to categorise.

As for the control panel, they're obfuscating it further despite still being 100% reliant on it. They STILL haven't f*cking finished migrating everything to the settings app, so why bury it further if it's an unavoidable requirement. Rather than finish doing what they promised to do with Windows 8 nine years ago and replace it completely, they're just hurting their current UI and user experience by delaying the inevitable and running this schizophrenic bullshit solution that pushes the settings app in your face despite it lacking the required functionality to actually change half the settings you're looking for.

If I were a teacher grading Windows 11 as Microsoft's homework assignment I'd tear it up and throw it in the trash as they watched. "Do it again properly otherwise you're going to be meeting with the principal about your bad attitude to your work!"

* - I've yet to see a single streamer, reviewer, vlogger, blogger, forum post anywhere stating that someone thinks it's better than W10's interface.


----------



## Octopuss (Dec 8, 2021)

The control panel vs settings page is something I am absolutely stunned by. Like what the fuck have you been doing for over five years, moving maybe two things to the new place in every major update?
That's one of the most bizarre aspects of Windows 10 I can think of.


----------



## bug (Dec 8, 2021)

Octopuss said:


> The control panel vs settings page is something I am absolutely stunned by. Like what the fuck have you been doing for over five years, moving maybe two things to the new place in every major update?
> That's one of the most bizarre aspects of Windows 10 I can think of.


It's a sign of the mess behind the control panel 
Honestly, the control panel itself is way more usable than the new one. Slap a search feature in it and it's good for another 10 years.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Dec 8, 2021)

Octopuss said:


> what the fuck have you been doing for over five years


Whilst you're technically not wrong, it's about ten years, it was supposed to be completed for the beta testing of Windows 8. How were people supposed to beta test the new settings if they didn't exist and were still in the old control panel?

Moving one or two things per year is so slow that they won't be done for another 15 years at that pace.


----------



## bug (Dec 8, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Whilst you're technically not wrong, it's about ten years, it was supposed to be completed for the beta testing of Windows 8. How were people supposed to beta test the new settings if they didn't exist and were still in the old control panel?
> 
> Moving one or two things per year is so slow that they won't be done for another 15 years at that pace.


Has anything actually _moved_? It feels like all the old settings are still in place, the new UI only duplicates some of the old ones and adds some that didn't exist before.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Dec 8, 2021)

bug said:


> Has anything actually _moved_? It feels like all the old settings are still in place, the new UI only duplicates some of the old ones and adds some that didn't exist before.


I think the layout of the settings menu has changed, possibly beacuse of the extra white space and padding they insist on polluting the interface with, meaning the links to the control panel parts that aren't yet in the settings app are now not shown until you scroll down or maximise the settings window.

I've also noticed that searching the start menu for control panel functions doesn't give results any more, it pushes you only at settings. They are _trying_ to push people towards the settings app but we don't use the control panel by choice, we use it because we _have to_ - Microsoft haven't finished making the alternative after a decade of seemingly pissing into the wind.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 8, 2021)

bug said:


> I wouldn't mind one, thank you.


This will run you through it. Very simple actually. (Sorry I didn't get back to you right away, had a busy day.)








For those who missed Bug's request, this video shows how to bypass the microsoft account creation and setup Windows 11 Home with a local account.

If you can't play the video, follow the direction below;
When you reach the Network connection screen, Hold down the "Shift" key and press "F10".
This will bring up a command prompt.
Type in "taskmgr" and press enter.
The Task Manager will open. Click on "More Details" at the bottom and scroll down until you find the "Network Connection Flow" entry.
Right click that entry and click "End Task". Close the Task Manager and command prompt windows and you will be on the user creation screen.
This will create a local user account and bypass the microsoft account creation step.

Tada!


----------



## Chrispy_ (Dec 10, 2021)

Chomiq said:


> Simple:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So if 11 is the tablet interface, we can ignore it on laptops and desktops until Microsoft unf*ck the UI and make one for people using a keyboard and mouse.


----------



## cst1992 (Dec 10, 2021)

I seem to recall that Windows 10 was going to be the "last operating system"; or in other words, all we were going to see from here on out were OS updates.

But a company has to keep making money, right?

Makes me wonder how long we have till Windows 50.


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 10, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> I seem to recall that Windows 10 was going to be the "last operating system"; or in other words, all we were going to see from here on out were OS updates.
> 
> But a company has to keep making money, right?
> 
> Makes me wonder how long we have till Windows 50.



The marketing guys are gonna have their work cut out for them


----------



## bug (Dec 10, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> I seem to recall that *Windows 10 was going to be the "last operating system"*; or in other words, all we were going to see from here on out were OS updates.
> 
> But a company has to keep making money, right?
> 
> Makes me wonder how long we have till Windows 50.


Did you ever honestly believe that?


----------



## Chrispy_ (Dec 10, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> I seem to recall that Windows 10 was going to be the "last operating system"; or in other words, all we were going to see from here on out were OS updates.
> 
> But a company has to keep making money, right?
> 
> Makes me wonder how long we have till Windows 50.


Windows 50? That implies Microsoft stick to numbered versions 

1.x
2.x
3.x
WFW 3.11
NT 3.x
95
98
SE (what happened to 99?)
2000
Me (because NT became 2000 instead of the sequel to '99)
XP
Vista (¿qué significa eso?)
7
8
8.1 (it's like 9, but wrong, just like the OS itself by this point)
10 (1507 to 2004)
10-(20H2-21H2)
10X 11-21H2

For all we know, Windows 50 is_ next_, or will in fact never arrive as Microsoft change to copying Google and start using sugary treats starting with different letters of the alphabet.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 10, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> So if 11 is the tablet interface, we can ignore it on laptops and desktops until Microsoft unf*ck the UI and make one for people using a keyboard and mouse.


As opposed to the silly UI of 10 which is touch-centric as well? Windows 11's UI is just a refinement of blending the desktop and mobile design ideals together in a way that everyone can use regardless of how they're using it. While it's still not on the same level of excellent as Windows 7, it's far and away better than the pathetic crap of Windows 10.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Dec 10, 2021)

Well one week later and this hasn't aged well.  

Probably someone already pointed it out but Steam now shows 8.61% running Win 11.

As part of that 8.61% I'll just say, I miss Windows 7.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 10, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> I miss Windows 7.


Right there with you!


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 10, 2021)

RandallFlagg said:


> Well one week later and this hasn't aged well.
> 
> Probably someone already pointed it out but Steam now shows 8.61% running Win 11.


To be fair Steam only measures machines with Steam installed, as long as they agree to be part of the survey.

So, you could probably discard a large swath of office/business computers. Which likely make at least dozens if not hundreds of millions of computers. 




RandallFlagg said:


> I'll just say, I miss Windows 7.


Can't blame you. All these UI changes feel like reparations and patches and fixes on 8's disaster. 

It's not a bad interface imo, at least now, but there are design decisions that can be really irritating.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Dec 11, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> To be fair Steam only measures machines with Steam installed, as long as they agree to be part of the survey.
> 
> So, you could probably discard a large swath of office/business computers. Which likely make at least dozens if not hundreds of millions of computers.



Oh I get it, but this is still a fast adoption rate.  Technically there are 5 PCs in my home and two of them are on Win 11, but one of those is new. 

Corporations will upgrade when they do platform upgrades, but not until Win 11 has been around a year or so (for most of them).  Too much pointless liability if there is a security flaw, they're not going to be early adopters.


----------



## maxfly (Dec 11, 2021)

I've built six rigs since the Win11 upgrade window opened. Each person has looked at me with zero recognition when I ask them if they are interested in running it (most were well educated intelligent individuals). Obviously I drop the subject at that point. If they are that oblivious, I'm not going to spend a half hour explaining the differences.

I'm certain that the vast majority of people simply have no idea Win11 exists. Granted my sample size is tiny and i don't do social media, so I may be completely off target but I doubt it.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 11, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> This will run you through it. Very simple actually. (Sorry I didn't get back to you right away, had a busy day.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For those who upgrade from Windows 10 with a local account, is that configuration preserved on Windows 11?  Since we know the functionality still exists.



lexluthermiester said:


> As opposed to the silly UI of 10 which is touch-centric as well? Windows 11's UI is just a refinement of blending the desktop and mobile design ideals together in a way that everyone can use regardless of how they're using it. While it's still not on the same level of excellent as Windows 7, it's far and away better than the pathetic crap of Windows 10.


You can say that for the settings applet.

But compare the 10 taskbar (with small icons enabled) and the start menu of 10, to what is offered in 11 in which there is way more padding combined with cut functionality.

Maybe you are one of those people who never used the start menu, as I know some just launch from desktop or search, and also maybe you don't multi task much, here is a screen grab of my start menu and taskbar.  I know there is padding in 10, but its barely there on the taskbar, and the start menu padding is not as bad as the start window tablet design that 11 has.  11 to me isn't a hybrid its a forced tablet UI on desktop.  I just don't understand why Microsoft are incapable of adding customisation, pick desktop or tablet mode, allow compact UI toggle's as well, the same complaints exist for edge, so its clearly a problem within Microsoft where they want all this padding in their software forced on people.

This is also not mentioning the horrific changes to the right click menu and other regressions, its fine to prefer or like 11, but its not just a tweak to 10 UI, its a considerable difference.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 11, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> For those who upgrade from Windows 10 with a local account, is that configuration preserved on Windows 11? Since we know the functionality still exists.


From what I've seen so far, Setup still tries to force a microsoft account to be created. The method I posted above will still work on an upgrade install, so you can still bypass it.



chrcoluk said:


> But compare the 10 taskbar (with small icons enabled) and the start menu of 10, to what is offered in 11 in which there is way more padding combined with cut functionality.





chrcoluk said:


> View attachment 228492


Holy crap! That is the messiest taskbar I have EVER seen! And I've seen some cluttered taskbars. You need to clean that mess up instead of complaining about how Windows 11 can accommodate such a mess.



chrcoluk said:


> Maybe you are one of those people who never used the start menu


The default Start menu in 11 is better than 10, but only just. I still use Open Shell.

I keep things clean and tidy.



chrcoluk said:


> This is also not mentioning the horrific changes to the right click menu and other regressions


Agreed, it's needlessly cumbersome and annoying. Easily fixed though.


----------



## simlife (Dec 15, 2021)

its not a flop windows 11  its to future proof stuf,f its meant for windows 7, 8 ppl who eventually get a new computer(when prices get better also) to be current and well secure with updates..

os are not lifechanging as they used to be and most med to lower users dont want the hassle to upgrade and backup or learn what needs to be done..... also 0 low end users want to upgrade to tech that is still being perfected....


----------



## TKnockers (Dec 16, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> I like having the control panel still, but Microsoft is intent on removing it with W11.


Well, I have win11 on my work pc and my home pc...and both have control panel. You just type control panel in the search field and it pops right up.. looks and behaves the same as it did in win 10


----------



## Caring1 (Dec 16, 2021)

TKnockers said:


> Well, I have win11 on my work pc and my home pc...and both have control panel. You just type control panel in the search field and it pops right up.. looks and behaves the same as it did in win 10


For now, until they finish transferring the contents out, then it will be gone.
Until then it remains and contents are duplicated.


----------



## cst1992 (Dec 16, 2021)

simlife said:


> its not a flop windows 11  its to future proof stuf,f its meant for windows 7, 8 ppl who eventually get a new computer(when prices get better also) to be current and well secure with updates..
> 
> os are not lifechanging as they used to be and most med to lower users dont want the hassle to upgrade and backup or learn what needs to be done..... also 0 low end users want to upgrade to tech that is still being perfected....


Innocence... a rarity in today's crazy crazy world


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 16, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> Until then it remains and contents are duplicated.


Not entirely. Some things get moved to Settings and then removed from Control Panel, such as the main System control panel applet or the file association controls.

Now in the most recent Insider build they've moved the Programs and Features panel to Settings. Clicking the Control Panel option simply redirects you to Settings.


Chrispy_ said:


> ve also noticed that searching the start menu for control panel functions doesn't give results any more, it pushes you only at settings.


Weird, I can still see the control panel options there. However, it does prioritize Settings results if the setting you're looking for is available in the Settings app, so you'll likely see those first if you're looking for something such as mouse wheel speed. Power plan on the other hand will show you control panel options first


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 17, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> From what I've seen so far, Setup still tries to force a microsoft account to be created. The method I posted above will still work on an upgrade install, so you can still bypass it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well we both work different to each other, and we should respect each other on this, but I hope you now understand why I dont like the 11 taskbar.


----------



## kapone32 (Dec 17, 2021)

All but 1 of my machines run on Windows 11. I had a terrible time with my Gaming rig when my EK water block decided to become a fountain. Barring the gory details I had to replace my motherboard. Windows 11 refused to install or load as I had changed hardware so I had to load Windows 10. I had Windows 10 installed for about 2 hours before I re-upgraded to 11. From as neutral a standpoint, I would say that I definitely missed the Auto HDR function and the crispness that Windows 11 feels. I will say though I have been unable to get The Ascent to load and cannot finish level 18 of Orcs Must Die 3 without the PC crashing. I don't know if that is a specific Windows issue though. I do believe that the adoption rate will steadily grow as there are a ton of Gamers out there and however many users Epic has added on top of Steam's 30 million are huge. The future of IT seems to be laptops and I think, because of TPM it will have huge adoption rate there too. I work for a huge Telco and our latest laptops are Ryzen 5 based laptops.


----------



## zoom314 (Dec 17, 2021)

Chris34 said:


> Windows 12 coming next year. Probably.


Yeah version *8.12*, if what I read is true so far, it sounds like 11 is really *8.11*, they just left off the 8 and the period...


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Dec 18, 2021)

chrcoluk said:


> 8 - remove start menu, 10 add start menu, 11 - drop start menu


2013's 8.1 adds the Start menu, what 2012's Windows 8 should have been!


----------



## windwhirl (Dec 18, 2021)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> 2013's 8.1 adds the Start menu, what 2012's Windows 8 should have been!


... It did? I thought it was just a redirect to the Start screen...


----------



## RJARRRPCGP (Dec 21, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> ... It did? I thought it was just a redirect to the Start screen...


It wasn't a redirect to the "Start screen".


----------



## Deleted member 202104 (Dec 21, 2021)

windwhirl said:


> ... It did? I thought it was just a redirect to the Start screen...


You're correct.


RJARRRPCGP said:


> It wasn't a redirect to the "Start screen".


It did.  8.1 started at the desktop, but if you clicked the start button, it brought up the start screen.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 21, 2021)

Video guide made by Tek Syndicate to add some sanity back to the UI, I see the icons can be shrunk now but that tool needs a very small and remove padding option then we getting somewhere.   The padding on the explorer toolbar as well, just wow.










On padding skip to 20:55 (removed the direct skip link it wasnt skipping properly sorry)


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 21, 2021)

weekendgeek said:


> It did. 8.1 started at the desktop, but if you clicked the start button, it brought up the start screen.






Pretty much this. Windows 8/8.1 was a retarded mess.


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 21, 2021)

Yeah I used startisback with 8, it made it usable but Microsoft were guilty of the trying to tablet the OS in 8 and 8.1.

They partially backed down in 10 and I did think they had learnt the error of their ways at that point until 11 came.  But it is good so many people are releasing tweaks to fix the UI already.  I am reasonably confident now when the day comes I will need to use 11, it will be a comfortable experience.  But I still wont move until I need to.

Of course 10 has its own padding issues check the size of this toolbar


----------



## ARF (Dec 21, 2021)

My Windows 10 is perfectly fine. Windows 11 is MS' absolutely unnecessary flop adventure..


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 21, 2021)

Well i have a perfectly small taskbar in win 11 with a proper sized clock


----------



## chrcoluk (Dec 21, 2021)

Tigger said:


> ARF said:
> 
> 
> > My Windows 10 is perfectly fine. Windows 11 is MS' absolutely unnecessary flop adventure..



I do as well, its just that one box that for some reason is odd lol.

Right click in explorer and choose add network location, its probably a bug.


----------



## bug (Dec 21, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> View attachment 229724
> Pretty much this. Windows 8/8.1 was a retarded mess.


I still like this one better: 



http://imgur.com/d1Rd8


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 22, 2021)

bug said:


> I still like this one better:
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/d1Rd8


I've seen that, very cool! Kinda prefer this version though;


----------



## Liquid Cool (Dec 22, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Pretty much this. Windows 8/8.1 was a retarded mess.



LLM,

I nabbed a copy of that for my archives....


Here is my Start Menu...it makes perfect sense to me.



Sooner or later a fella gets tired of having to pay Stardock to correct Mafiasofts dystopian diarrhea.  First with Windows 8(8.1), then Windows 10.  Although...when they really started going after the Control Panel...that was the last straw for me.  It's hard to like something where the developer doesn't listen to your needs.  

Perhaps its because I'm older and while I don't mind change...it needs to be for the better.  If it enhances productivity...fine.  If it enhances confusion?  Windows 11?

None of the changes they've made since Windows 7 make any sense to me and I increasingly want to level the accusation that they don't have a clue as to what they're doing...they never have.  The tiles still don't make sense.

From my perspective...with one company having such a foothold in the market...it's stifling innovation.

Best,

Liquid Cool

P.S.  Switched to Librewolf as of late.  Excellent browser...almost ready for Prime time.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 23, 2021)

Liquid Cool said:


> Sooner or later a fella gets tired of having to pay Stardock to correct Mafiasofts dystopian diarrhea.


This is one of the reason I take every opportunity to mention Open Shell(Classic Shell previously).  It's open source and wonderfully excellent! Honestly, Stardock's start menu isn't very different and Open Shell has a few more options & fine grained tweaks that I love.








						Releases · Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu
					

Classic Shell Reborn. Contribute to Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com
				



The good thing is that it works perfectly on Windows 11 as long as you move the Start menu to the left and replace the start button with a custom one. The devs are currently working on an update for Win11. The new shell hooks seem to be a challenge, but I feel confident they'll sort it out.



Liquid Cool said:


> P.S. Switched to Librewolf as of late. Excellent browser...almost ready for Prime time.


I'll give that a try! Looks interesting. Do the extensions work the same way? That's a very important feature to me..


----------



## Liquid Cool (Dec 23, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'll give that a try! Looks interesting. Do the extensions work the same way? That's a very important feature to me..



LLM...

If they didn't work perfectly...I wouldn't be using it.

There are quite a few extensions I can't live without too.  Currently using Ublock Origin, Privacy Badger, h264ify(to block 60fps videos), BlockTube, SponsorBlock, Feneas SearX, Gibiru, Plasma Integration, and Easy Youtube Video Downloader Express without a single hitch.



I've been watching this browser closely since day one and i like what I'm seeing here.  Their recent site updates help round out the improvements.  Now...just about anyone can install the browser with ease and get updates.

It's beta enough for me to daily drive it...I don't mind if they hit a curb or two....

Best,

Liquid Cool

P.S.  I'll check into OpenShell.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 23, 2021)

Liquid Cool said:


> If they didn't work perfectly...I wouldn't be using it.


Fair enough. Had to ask..


----------



## Space Lynx (Dec 23, 2021)

Frank_100 said:


> Microsoft desktop should be a standard like KDE or Gnome.
> 
> I don't believe they understand the damage they do to their brand.
> 
> ...



they don't have to understand, they know they have a monopoly for majority of games. like me, its only place I can play Endwalker. PS5's are sold out everywhere... so yeah... PC is only option, Endwalker doesn't work with Proton/Linux


----------



## cst1992 (Dec 27, 2021)

Liquid Cool said:


> None of the changes they've made since Windows 7 make any sense to me and I increasingly want to level the accusation that they don't have a clue as to what they're doing...they never have.  The tiles still don't make sense.


I hated the tile change that they made with Win8 and I hated that they got rid of Windows Aero, so on my main(old) desktop I am still using Windows 7 SP1. Yes, I know it's out of date, but still.
Here's my desktop(minus the icons):



That to the right is a software called Moo0 System Monitor(yes, really). Despite the funny name, it's quite useful to keep an eye on things and notice any problems before they cause damage(e.g. overheating CPU).

There used to be a CPU temp sensor as well, but it's showing a blank value nowadays - dunno why.


----------



## bobbybluz (Dec 27, 2021)

I only have one evening of playing around with my new Win 11 build. It's more of a dull thud than a flop to me so far. Tonight I'll see what I can mod on it and see if I can make it usable to my needs or Win 10 Enterprise LTSC is going in.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 27, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> and I hated that they got rid of Windows Aero


In many ways, Windows 11 brought the Aero desktop back. Their just not directly calling it that. It's one of the many changes I like about Win11.



bobbybluz said:


> Tonight I'll see what I can mod on it and see if I can make it usable to my needs or Win 10 Enterprise LTSC is going in.


While LTSC is a good way to go, try to ignore the negative nonsense and give Win11 an open-minded go. Just make sure you disable TPM and SecureBoot. You will still have updates.


----------



## InVasMani (Dec 28, 2021)

cst1992 said:


> I hated the tile change that they made with Win8 and I hated that they got rid of Windows Aero, so on my main(old) desktop I am still using Windows 7 SP1. Yes, I know it's out of date, but still.
> Here's my desktop(minus the icons):
> View attachment 230373
> That to the right is a software called Moo0 System Monitor(yes, really). Despite the funny name, it's quite useful to keep an eye on things and notice any problems before they cause damage(e.g. overheating CPU).
> ...


Sick ray tracing looks so life like!


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Dec 28, 2021)

lynx29 said:


> they don't have to understand, they know they have a monopoly for majority of games. like me, its only place I can play Endwalker. PS5's are sold out everywhere... so yeah... PC is only option, Endwalker doesn't work with Proton/Linux


As in 14 online? Proton DB has it listed as platinum:



			https://www.protondb.com/app/39210
		


If it's an expansion that doesnt work, give it time. Someone will get it working sooner or later, especially since the base game already works, and the game does have a mac version, so getting the codebase to work on linux shouldnt be too hard. 

I get it though, I have to maintain a seperate windows install just for halo infinite, and with 11 I cant use my backup system, as it's ivy bridge and cannot support windows 11. Meaning that while halo infinite still supports 10, for now, it's at the end of the road in a year or two. I'll have to buy new hardware, even though there is nothing wrong with the setup as is.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 28, 2021)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> and with 11 I cant use my backup system, as it's ivy bridge and cannot support windows 11.


Nonsense. Windows 11 runs well on every system from a Pentium4 on up. Install Windows 11 with the TPM bypass, enjoy.


----------



## bug (Dec 28, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nonsense. Windows 11 runs well on every system from a Pentium4 on up. Install Windows 11 with the TPM bypass, enjoy.


Technically correct, but still there's no reason to bother. Win11 just doesn't do anything 10 doesn't (bonus points for phrasing). I'm still considering giving it a try on my old Skylake laptop, but I will not mess up my main rig until Micorsoft makes up its mind about these soft restrictions. Save for a few things I don't care to run on Wine, I'm spending most of my time on Linux anyway


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 28, 2021)

bug said:


> Win11 just doesn't do anything 10 doesn't


Nonsense. Win11 does plenty. The UI is much better to use. While it has a few quirks(which are easily tweaked), it is a much better experience. Legacy program compatibility has been improved and


bug said:


> I'm still considering giving it a try on my old Skylake laptop


Do so. You need hands on to understand it better.


bug said:


> but I will not mess up my main rig until Micorsoft makes up its mind about these soft restrictions.


They already have. While 11 will run on unsupported hardware, it will not be officially supported, which just means no official tech support. That's it. Updates still work as does everything else. 

Seriously, give it an objective go and you'll see why some people like it.


----------



## bug (Dec 29, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Nonsense. Win11 does plenty. The UI is much better to use. While it has a few quirks(which are easily tweaked), it is a much better experience. Legacy program compatibility has been improved and
> 
> Do so. You need hands on to understand it better.
> 
> ...


I _will_ give it a try when I'll have some free time on my hands, but you have to realize that even you couldn't follow up on "Win11 does plenty" with anything other than "The UI is much better to use".
Having stuck with Windows since 3.11, I'm used to periodically learning to do the same things in a different way. But since my main driver is KDE, it's hard for an UI to impress me these days


----------



## BiggieShady (Dec 29, 2021)

Hated what they did with win8 start screen, tiles and all the flatness, win10 brought back start menu but flatness and tiles carried over ... I don't know what it is, subtle gradient borders or bit of roundness, flatness is more palatable now, I actually have no issues with win11 changes - even centered taskbar as default ... works well on bigger laptops with centered touchpads, and I was so convinced I'll hate it - go figure.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Dec 29, 2021)

Put a toe in, I'm not totally neg but damn, some of the changes are mental.
Looks a lot like Linux too odd.


----------



## bug (Dec 29, 2021)

BiggieShady said:


> Hated what they did with win8 start screen, tiles and all the flatness, win10 brought back start menu but flatness and tiles carried over ... I don't know what it is, subtle gradient borders or bit of roundness, flatness is more palatable now, I actually have no issues with win11 changes - even centered taskbar as default ... works well on bigger laptops with centered touchpads, and I was so convinced I'll hate it - go figure.


It's just our brains getting used to the flatness.
Incidentally, MS did everything flat because they wanted cross-platform software that would work on mobile, that was very underpowered at the time. Today, the flatness is still with us, but the hardware limitations (or MS's ambitions for mobile) are long gone.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 30, 2021)

bug said:


> It's just our brains getting used to the flatness.
> Incidentally, MS did everything flat because they wanted cross-platform software that would work on mobile, that was very underpowered at the time. Today, the flatness is still with us, but the hardware limitations (or MS's ambitions for mobile) are long gone.


Yeah, that is one of the things I loath about 8/8.1/10. Win11 still has some flatness, but they are leaning back toward the properly fleshed out, natural looking 3D desktop and UI experience. Windows 7 is the high bar and they are clearly trying to make a return to that greatness.


----------



## bug (Dec 30, 2021)

lexluthermiester said:


> Yeah, that is one of the things I loath about 8/8.1/10. Win11 still has some flatness, but they are leaning back toward the properly fleshed out, natural looking 3D desktop and UI experience. Windows 7 is the high bar and they are clearly trying to make a return to that greatness.


Tbh, KDE4 was also about 3D while KDE5 went flat. It may be just my brain, but it just looks like "flatness done right". But the thing is so customizable, you can probably make it look like Win95 if you put a little effort into it


----------



## AsRock (Dec 30, 2021)

Caring1 said:


> They just keep dumbing it down and taking away control from the end user.
> It started when they made "My PC" into "This PC" almost like they own it now, you no longer are in charge.



You can change it you know ?, but yeah i get what ya mean.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Dec 30, 2021)

Is it me or Win11 uses more CPU than Win10 in desktop applications? Meaning that is sluggish than Win10....
My CPU is a 3770K, I know is old, but I want to question if somebody else noticed that/


----------



## lexluthermiester (Dec 30, 2021)

Prima.Vera said:


> Is it me or Win11 uses more CPU than Win10 in desktop applications? Meaning that is sluggish than Win10....
> My CPU is a 3770K, I know is old, but I want to question if somebody else noticed that/


It's just you. I haven't noticed any difference. Of course, I bypassed the TPM/Secureboot crap...


----------



## bug (Dec 30, 2021)

AsRock said:


> You can change it you know ?, but yeah i get what ya mean.
> 
> View attachment 230659


Wow, a fellow Seamonkey user. Hats off.


----------



## GrumpyOtaku (Jul 8, 2022)

Just to test it out, I built a MSWin 11 VM, then went through it to see what it would take to de-crappify it down to at least the level of a de-crappified MSWin 10.  The major issue I hadn't worked around was it's enforced "Online" account.  Managed to get a somewhat usable installation ("usable" is always a relative term when speaking of MSWindows), but seems I could have installed a functionally equivalent Fedora Linux system *three times* in the time it took to do the MSW11 configuration.    And the MSW11 setup was really not where I'd want it to be anyway.

I know from how much my brother despised MSWin 10, a MSW11 system would severely piss him off.   As a comparison I built a Fedora install on a test machine (absolutely a machine MSWin 11 would never support) and it was cleaner, and faster than MSWin on newer hardware, and had nearly all the functionality of his current MSWin10 systems.   Granted, it helps that he's already using MSWin versions of open-source software wherever possible, so they're going to be the exact same programmes on Linux as on MSWindows.   Certainly you can have themes that have some actual texture to them, and not the flatso-fugly look of MSW8-11, Material Design, etc.


----------



## defaultluser (Jul 8, 2022)

6 months after, its still has zero momentum.









						Windows 11 is officially a failure
					

Six months in, Microsoft’s latest operating system is struggling to gain momentum — here’s why that’s happening




					medium.com


----------



## wheresmycar (Jul 8, 2022)

not even 1%? lol

why was 11 even released? I had  a hard time pushing to 10 from 7 with the principle "if it aint broken why fix it". Now im more than happy with 10 and I hope we won't be forced to upgrade at any point. 

Down to the nitty gritty.... does 11 offer anything special for someone who uses their PC primarily for general use, work (office applications) and gaming?


----------



## Bomby569 (Jul 8, 2022)

and don't forget they force upgrade by default now unless you specifically say no and not even that can make the numbers look good  

i remember when w10 come out everyone i knew wanted to upgrade, now no one cares about it


----------



## defaultluser (Jul 8, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> not even 1%? lol
> 
> why was 11 even released? I had  a hard time pushing to 10 from 7 with the principle "if it aint broken why fix it". Now im more than happy with 10 and I hope we won't be forced to upgrade at any point.
> 
> Down to the nitty gritty.... does 11 offer anything special for someone who uses their PC primarily for general use, work (office applications) and gaming?



Nope - encryption doesn't protect you from ransomware - only in the event that your laptop is stolen does it even matter

Games are supposed to use TPM 2.0 to magically fix all cheating, but then again whats the point when all online games are trash monetizers.

they broke the start menu, with no option to undo it, and also broke most existing right-click interactions - have fun actually getting office work done


----------



## Bomby569 (Jul 8, 2022)

i think the only "must have" meaningful feature for any use case was the direct storage for gamers, but it still isn't a thing and they announced it to W10 too later. Meanwhile a lot of quality of life features where downgraded.


----------



## wheresmycar (Jul 8, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> Nope...



i thought so...


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 8, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> i think the only "must have" meaningful feature for any use case was the direct storage for gamers, but it still isn't a thing and they announced it to W10 too later. Meanwhile a lot of quality of life features where downgraded.


Hah, I forgot this thread existed.

I've been daily-driving 11 on my laptop for the last 6+ months at this point - because one day I may be tasked with deploying it en-masse to hundreds of machines at work. I have been using it long enough now that I think I've unearthed every quirk and change in the interface and yet I still breathe a sigh of relief when I switch back to my W10 gaming/HTPC machines and stuff just takes fewer clicks and I regain functionality and shortcuts that have just been stripped from W11 for no good reason.

To date, I've yet to find a single thing that's actually better about it. If you don't have Alder Lake E-cores to worry about, I'm advising everyone who asks that it's full of several SaaS irritations that add nothing of value, force Microsoft crap down your throat more than W10 does, and it has no unique selling point that makes it worth bothering with unless you bought an Alder Lake i7/i9 and require the updated scheduler.


----------



## bobbybluz (Jul 8, 2022)

Meh... I have two Alder Lake PC's running a modded version of 11 Pro and have no complaints other than the time it takes to manually configure it to my liking and needs. The same thing happens with Win 10 as well, especially the very first releases. I do like that it installed using activation keys from copies of 7 Pro I got in October of 2009. It was free so that has to be taken into consideration.

Using Open Shell and a few registry tweaks I have 11 to my liking at this point in time. I'm also using Win 11 Pro 22H2 and it's somewhat pre-modded already. I got the .iso from a friend that works in IT for an internationally known professional tool manufacturer that's headquartered nearby here. They stripped a lot out of it, it's only 2.6GB in size and all of those annoying screens at the end of the installation that gives MS permission to spy on you are gone. During setup the company logo is the only thing you see and when the desktop appears the company logo is on it against a white background.

The install is FAST, so far the fastest I've ever seen from a MS product. He said it's a work in progress to entice employees still running Win 7 on company laptops to upgrade and not use KMS while in development (their company desktops are on Win 10 Enterprise 21H2 at the moment). The company is doing this in-house because in the past MS hasn't been able to provide a satisfactory product for their needs. He has some amusing horror stories of MS badly fux0ring things up during previous attempts in the past. I'm also a friend of the company Executive Vice-President but I'm not going to mention this to him.

If MS could get it together to create an OS that looks like Win 7 with the performance of 11 and removed all of the useless bloatware they'd have a genuine winner for the enthusiast users. Of course all of us here know that'll never happen.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 8, 2022)

bobbybluz said:


> Meh... I have two Alder Lake PC's running a modded version of 11 Pro and have no complaints other than the time it takes to manually configure it to my liking and needs. The same thing happens with Win 10 as well, especially the very first releases. I do like that it installed using activation keys from copies of 7 Pro I got in October of 2009. It was free so that has to be taken into consideration.
> 
> Using Open Shell and a few registry tweaks I have 11 to my liking at this point in time. I'm also using Win 11 Pro 22H2 and it's somewhat pre-modded already. I got the .iso from a friend that works in IT for an internationally known professional tool manufacturer that's headquartered nearby here. They stripped a lot out of it, it's only 2.6GB in size and all of those annoying screens at the end of the installation that gives MS permission to spy on you are gone. During setup the company logo is the only thing you see and when the desktop appears the company logo is on it against a white background.
> 
> ...


So you're saying that when you strip all of the Windows 11 out of Windows 11, it's okay to use? 

I haven't really committed to the Enterprise version of W11 yet because I'm assuming W12 or some uberpatch for W11 that corrects the worst grievances of W11 will arrive. An antitrust ruling from the US or EU is likely to mandate that again soon because I couldn't believe the amount of obnoxious bullshit steps it took to do simple crap like disabling telemetry, choosing non-microsoft browsers/apps etc in the "consumer" install...


----------



## zlobby (Jul 8, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> So you're saying that when you strip all of the Windows 11 out of Windows 11, it's okay to use?
> 
> I haven't really committed to the Enterprise version of W11 yet because I'm assuming W12 or some uberpatch for W11 that corrects the worst grievances of W11 will arrive. An antitrust ruling from the US or EU is likely to mandate that again soon because I couldn't believe the amount of obnoxious bullshit steps it took to do simple crap like disabling telemetry, choosing non-microsoft browsers/apps etc in the "consumer" install...


I particulary like how W11 whines when you try to change the default browser from Edge, and how it tries to convince you to roll back after you do.


----------



## chrcoluk (Jul 8, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> not even 1%? lol
> 
> why was 11 even released? I had  a hard time pushing to 10 from 7 with the principle "if it aint broken why fix it". Now im more than happy with 10 and I hope we won't be forced to upgrade at any point.
> 
> Down to the nitty gritty.... does 11 offer anything special for someone who uses their PC primarily for general use, work (office applications) and gaming?


Primarily two reasons, to push a new UI and to help the hardware vendors sell more hardware as they bumped the specs required.  Arguably is the security argument, although security features are mostly in win 10 just not on by default, and the ones not in there could have been added.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 8, 2022)

Hi,
I haven't really found anything redeemable about 11 even performance is on par with 10
Once you find out how many items need changing you also find out how limited the UI allows it without third partyware 

I never needed a third party to change 10's start menu but 11 sure does thankfully explorerpatcher does what should be builtin ways to get around the silly win-8 desktop replacement page and go right to all apps.

Show more context menu is just the most basic example that ms has shown how stupid ms heads are for leaving it 

So yeah I got some cheap win-11 pro key for 5 machine activation for like 25.us off godeals but I rarely use 11 at all why bother seeing 22h2 ms is pushing hard for everyone to use ms accounts so I say go for it ms dig your own grave I dare you 

The workarounds are pretty plentiful and easy so far but I doubt I'll bother using them anymore it's just another 10 bottom line.


----------



## Totally (Jul 9, 2022)

For me, it was them f@#$ing with the start menu. If I want it on the side of the screen, I want it on the side of the screen. If I wanted a Mac, I'd get a Mac and have them dictate my preferences.


----------



## Athlonite (Jul 9, 2022)

I don't have a problem with it it seems no worse than 10 but not any better either I have only one program that won't run and that's only because Asus has so far refused to update it and that is RealBench it dies just as it starts the video encoding portion of the benchmarking and never recovers I've tried updating the base programs that it uses like gimp, Handbrake and so forth but to no avail ohwell atleast 3DMark 2000 still runs perfectly fine


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 9, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> 6 months after, its still has zero momentum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good article. Can't disagree with any one point.

@ microsoft(and yes we know you lurk)

The only way you are going to turn this around is if you STOP with the bullshit!

STOP trying to force people to newer hardware. Most are giving you the finger if they're not using a by-pass. This is NOT going to change. Forcing people to newer hardware is wasteful and unreasonable. People are not just saying no to spite you, they're doing it because they see ZERO valid reason to replace a PC that works perfectly and will continue to do so.

STOP trying to force an ms account on everyone. Most people don't want to use the store, for good reasons.

STOP spying on everyone! Really! What you're doing is borderline illegal, arguably unethical and fully unacceptable.

STOP forcing people to use programs you provide. Defender, Edge, WMP, etc., etc... Most people want to run what THEY want. They don't need you telling them how to use their PC's.

STOP acting like pathetic wannabe Nazi's goose-stepping your shit agenda all over the globe.

Windows 11 is a solid step forward in the UI and baseline functionality department. But it's comes with all your tacked on crap, which no one wants. The only people using 11 are people who don't care or people like me, expert power users who know how to disable/remove/delete what we don't want and can work around the rest.

In the HIGHLY customized form I'm running 11, I love it! But ONLY in this highly customized form. In it's stock/default configuration it is fully and completely unacceptable! You couldn't PAY me to run it like that.

You're either going to swallow your pride, back down and offer Windows in a way that will be acceptable and pleasing to the computing public or your going to continue on your merry way and go belly up. The writing is on the wall, and you put it there...

Put another way: Quit being bone-headed dumbasses, pull your heads from your rectums and do the RIGHT and CORRECT things.


----------



## micropage7 (Jul 9, 2022)

one that really annoying is the right click menu, M$ ruin it in Win11


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## Minxie (Jul 9, 2022)

micropage7 said:


> M$


You people are so quirky and original.


lexluthermiester said:


> Put another way: Quit being bone-headed dumbasses, pull your heads from your rectums and do the RIGHT and CORRECT things.


Same thing, except towards these forums and telling them to stop being cynical about everything.


lexluthermiester said:


> STOP trying to force people to newer hardware. Most are giving you the finger if they're not using a by-pass. This is NOT going to change. Forcing people to newer hardware is wasteful and unreasonable. People are not just saying no to spite you, they're doing it because they see ZERO valid reason to replace a PC that works perfectly and will continue to do so.


Force, you're hilarious. Is that why 10 still has support and they won't just end its support, idk, tomorrow?

All I have to say about the requirements is this. Goodbye, unwatching this thread full of misinformed cynics.


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## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jul 9, 2022)

micropage7 said:


> one that really annoying is the right click menu, M$ ruin it in Win11


Easily fixable.









						How to Get the Old Context Menus Back in Windows 11
					

Windows 11 ships with a simplified right-click context menu for File Explorer (and the desktop) that is different from the Windows 10 context menu. If you’d like to use the classic Windows 10 right-click menu instead, you can do so by modifying your registry with a few clicks. Here’s how.




					www.howtogeek.com


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 9, 2022)

Minxie said:


> Same thing, except towards these forums and telling them to stop being cynical about everything.


Blah blah blah..


Minxie said:


> Force, you're hilarious.


Oh?


Minxie said:


> Is that why 10 still has support and they won't just end its support, idk, tomorrow?


And that ends in less than 3 years. What happens then clever chops? You were saying?


Minxie said:


> Goodbye, unwatching this thread full of misinformed cynics.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 9, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Put another way: Quit being bone-headed dumbasses, pull your heads from your rectums and do the RIGHT and CORRECT things.


But the right and correct things aren't as profitable.

Microsoft want to record everything about you and your habits as data to sell. They don't give a damn about you and will only change when forced to by a government, or fined millions a day for non-compliance.

_Even then_, you as a US citizen may not benefit from consumer-friendly changes enforced by the EU commission - just look at Windows N and KN to comply with EU and SK rulings against Microsoft. Not only did Microsoft continue to push the full-fat versions of Windows out (along with all their monopolistic, preference-ignoring bullshit that lost them the cases against the EU and SK governments), they merely offered _the option_ to use a compliant version that wasn't 'ram our bullshit down your throat' variants in those regions.

As someone who installed a ton of Windows N, I regret that decision; Microsoft insidiously cut out a lot more of the underlying framework than they were told to, crippling the OS beyond what the ruling mandated and made use of third-party apps far more difficult than the regular version where you could just switch your browser/player/viewer back to what you preferred every 6 months after Microsoft briefly hijacked your PC and reset all your choices. What they did with Windows N was complied, _spitefully and vengefully_ to the _letter of the law_ whilst completely refusing to comply with the spirit of the law. The only people who they satisfied with those versions were the lawyers!


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 9, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> But the right and correct things aren't as profitable.


That depends on your perspective. Using such underhanded and slimy tactics is not winning the public over. It would be in microsoft's best interests to treat the public like valued friends & allies instead of criminals and subjugates.


Chrispy_ said:


> They don't give a damn about you


And that's exactly the problem. If they cared and showed it, they would win over far more people. It's better to win over a people with trust and loyalty than force them into subjugation. History has taught this lesson many times. Certain nitwits at microsoft have failed to learn the lessons offered by history.


Chrispy_ said:


> What they did with Windows N was complied, _spitefully and vengefully_ to the _letter of the law_ whilst completely refusing to comply with the spirit of the law.


Proving they have not learned the lessons of history. The leadership at microsoft either needs to pull their heads from their ass or they need to be replaced, by force if needed and not unironically.


----------



## Prima.Vera (Jul 11, 2022)

I have uninstalled Windows 11 and re-installed Win 10. Is slower and crappier for me than Win 10. That's the truth.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 11, 2022)

Does win 10 even support ADL properly?


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Does win 10 even support ADL properly?


Win11 doesn't support ADL properly, so no issues there.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 11, 2022)

bug said:


> Win11 doesn't support ADL properly, so no issues there.



I meant the E cores, does win 10 have the correct thread director(or whatever it is called)


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 11, 2022)

Totally said:


> For me, it was them f@#$ing with the start menu. If I want it on the side of the screen, I want it on the side of the screen. If I wanted a Mac, I'd get a Mac and have them dictate my preferences.



Yep the Mac interface was an instant dealbreaker. It tasted like rotten Apples at first glance and everything else/new in 11 just screams 'but why?'. Its existence, too.

Not even with an eleven foot pole...


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

Tigger said:


> I meant the E cores, does win 10 have the correct thread director(or whatever it is called)


It doesn't. But Win11 doesn't handle E cores right either, even though it is ITD-aware. It always sends background windows to E cores, even if they're running CPU-intensive tasks.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure heterogeneous cores can be figured out by the OS alone, on a desktop, period. I'm waiting for Linux 5.19 to see if that fares any better.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 11, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Does win 10 even support ADL properly?


No, it does not. Windows 10 will not properly use ADL CPU's properly.


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> No, it does not. Windows 10 will not properly use ADL CPU's properly.


It depends. Out of 31 desktop CPU models released, 18 do not have E cores, so no problem with Win10. All mobile CPUs do, though.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 11, 2022)

bug said:


> It depends. Out of 31 desktop CPU models released, 18 do not have E cores, so no problem with Win10. All mobile CPUs do, though.


The problem is that all of the mainstream models do have ecores and thus will not work well with Windows 10. I keep getting BSOD's with Win10 on anything ADL, so the advice is if you have ADL, use Win11.


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> The problem is that all of the mainstream models do have ecores and thus will not work well with Windows 10. I keep getting BSOD's with Win10 on anything ADL, so the advice is if you have ADL, use Win11.


I haven't noticed problems on Win10. But I did disable the E cores and only boot Windows maybe once a week... Haven't even done a clean install. But I have been warned now.


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 11, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> The problem is that all of the mainstream models do have ecores and thus will not work well with Windows 10. I keep getting BSOD's with Win10 on anything ADL, so the advice is if you have ADL, use Win11.



Ok i will stick to 10. Didn't really see any reason to use 10 anyway tbh. I have been using 11 since beta, and had zero bsods, errors or CTD. Maybe i am just awesome at PC building/setting up


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 11, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Ok i will stick to 10.


Did you mean 11?


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Did you mean 11?


He definitely mixed 10 and 11 in that post


----------



## SOAREVERSOR (Jul 11, 2022)

Tigger said:


> Ok i will stick to 10. Didn't really see any reason to use 10 anyway tbh. I have been using 11 since beta, and had zero bsods, errors or CTD. Maybe i am just awesome at PC building/setting up



I also have been using  11 with no errors either.  I don't get the hate 4 it.  It does look "macish" but mac looks like gnome to me!


----------



## Deleted member 24505 (Jul 11, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Did you mean 11?



lol yeah i did DOH


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 11, 2022)

Now watch Windows 12 bring back the 7 Start Menu, Aero V2 and a new driver regime so you have to move over, including all peripheral suppliers. Oh yeah, and DX13 of course.






As always... anything driver or OS related... if it ain't broken, don't fix it... heck don't even look at it. It was clear as day 11 was a shitshow, a similar 'upgrade' that 8 was over 7... (no not 8.1). Its MS taking way too many cues from the market and running with it, getting it ran over like roadkill by pretty much everyone, and then coming to their senses again for the next iteration. No, MS, we don't want an Apple interface, because then we'd buy Apple. No, we don't need a million connectivity options in desktop OSes. No, we don't need a Store with specially contained apps. GTFO. All is well and it was since 7. Just do your Azure business and rip off Enterprise. They have our money.


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> I also have been using  11 with no errors either.  I don't get the hate 4 it.  It does look "macish" but mac looks like gnome to me!


It's not necessarily hate. But it's an OS that takes stuff away, giving little to nothing in return. It's probably more apathy than hate. E.g. I'm at ease giving it a pass the same way I gave (pardon the expression) 8 and 8.1 a pass.


----------



## rethcirE (Jul 11, 2022)

I have yet to upgrade any machine I own from 10 to 11. Like most things I see no reason for change, and will likely only do so when it's an absolute requirement and even then will likely do so with ire and gritted teeth. To the same point, it's why I'm still on an 8th Gen Intel. I've had no reason to upgrade since it's purchase in 2019. Everything works, the RTX 2070 does everything I need as well. This PC is fully capable of running Win 11 but....why would I change something that works exactly as I need it to? What do I gain? I see nothing in Windows 11 worth investing my time/energy in. I would surely need hours to tweak and configure it much like I did with 10 to be happy.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 11, 2022)

Hi,
It's one of those switches that most would probably say there wasn't anything special about 10 so why not use 11 
Personally 11 is less special seeing all the new nonsense to deal with and the crap pile looks like it's going to get taller.

Just my iphone drives me bonkers sometimes so I'd never use a closed garden os like mac 24/7... and it looks like ms is going that direction.


----------



## bug (Jul 11, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> It's one of those switches that most would probably say there wasn't anything special about 10 so why not use 11
> Personally 11 is less special seeing all the new nonsense to deal with and the crap pile looks like it's going to get taller.
> 
> Just my iphone drives me bonkers sometimes so I'd never use a closed garden os like mac 24/7... and it looks like ms is going that direction.


MS is trying hard to go that way, but, luckily for us, it can't. Between their store being a complete failure and having to cater to businesses, Microsoft just can't lock down Windows like Apple locks down macOS.
I mean, look at how miserably Win11 failed at the attempt to reduce the number of supported CPUs.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 11, 2022)

bug said:


> MS is trying hard to go that way, but, luckily for us, it can't. Between their store being a complete failure and having to cater to businesses, Microsoft just can't lock down Windows like Apple locks down macOS.
> I mean, look at how miserably Win11 failed at the attempt to reduce the number of supported CPUs.


Hi,
CPU's depend on bios updates to get unflagged don't they
No bios update/ no 11 unless jump through hoops that is.


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Jul 12, 2022)

Minxie said:


> All I have to say about the requirements is this. Goodbye, unwatching this thread full of misinformed cynics.


Holy shit! Who the hell is going to read that unoptimized dumpster fire?


----------



## windwhirl (Jul 12, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Now watch Windows 12 bring back the 7 Start Menu


If we're gonna wish for stuff, I'd rather the Windows 2000 menu lol


----------



## hat (Jul 12, 2022)

I can' even do anything with the start menu anymore. With 7, I used to be able to organize it and launch all my programs, games and what have you from folders I created there. 10 lets me do no such thing.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 12, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> It does look "macish" but mac looks like gnome to me!


Doesn't look MacOS like to me.


----------



## bug (Jul 12, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> CPU's depend on bios updates to get unflagged don't they
> No bios update/ no 11 unless jump through hoops that is.


They don't. CPUs either have the required instructions or they get flagged. BIOS updates will not add silicon to CPU


----------



## trparky (Jul 12, 2022)

The only thing that I really like about Windows 11 is the way that you can hover the mouse over the maximize button and get several ways to tile your windows. Oh, and Bluetooth AAC support too. I have a pair of Sony headphones that support AAC as a Bluetooth audio codec so now I can get high quality audio from my Bluetooth headphones when compared to that of that old codec that sounds like hot garbage.


----------



## Slizzo (Jul 12, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> 6 months after, its still has zero momentum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That "survey", looks like it was taking data from businesses.

It's no small wonder there's no adoption of Win11 there. Win10 is still supported for the next few years, we're not going to switch over until that issue looms over us...


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 12, 2022)

Slizzo said:


> That "survey", looks like it was taking data from businesses.
> 
> It's no small wonder there's no adoption of Win11 there. Win10 is still supported for the next few years, we're not going to switch over until that issue looms over us...


Lack of support didn't stop companies to use Win XP until eternity. Even governments.

If 11 provides issues, you can rest assured MS is not going to get into a position to end support on 10. We saw this before.

Adoption is adoption, really, I doubt there is a meaningful difference in statistics between enterprise usage and consumer. Both are effectively offered the same deal: access to Azure for numerous (office related) tasks, either in a big contract or Office365 for consumer... an OS that basically evolves like a SaaS package with generic components, free to access until you want something special.

The fact is, Windows thrives on adoption rates, so MS knows thats the only way to keep it afloat. No consumers will mean enterprise will eventually die too.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 12, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Lack of support didn't stop companies to use Win XP until eternity. Even governments.
> 
> If 11 provides issues, you can rest assured MS is not going to get into a position to end support on 10. We saw this before.
> 
> ...


The consumer has less to validate if anything at all ftm.
My company is looking into 11 but not yet swapping to it, big 15000 people company too ,I have two work PC's so damn I'd guess 25000 on 10 there , where's I personally have two behaving well on 11 and my now old faithful laptop on 10 for retro style.
It's definitely a thing that companies don't move quickly.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 12, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> The consumer has less to validate if anything at all ftm.
> My company is looking into 11 but not yet swapping to it, big 15000 people company too ,I have two work PC's so damn I'd guess 25000 on 10 there , where's I personally have two behaving well on 11 and my now old faithful laptop on 10 for retro style.
> It's definitely a thing that companies don't move quickly.


IME larger companies are more likely to adopt newer OSes because they have a larger IT department who can spare a person or two to validate the new OS with their hardware and mission-critical software. Someone at the top of the IT food chain will delegate the job and leave that person or persons alone to get on with that job. It's a worthwhile task when talking about eventual rollout to thousands or tens of thousands of machines because it'll need to be done eventually anyway, and they might as well get ahead of it to give themselves plenty of time to tackle compatibility and problems, potentially with custom or in-house software.

Smaller companies where you have a team of maybe one or two people managing IT don't have the time, resources, or willpower do do the compatibility testing that Microsoft, hardware vendors, and software vendors inevitably fail to fully get right before an OS launch. Not only do they lack the time and resources to test, they likely play it safe because the attitude is "why should I/we beta test this new OS for Microsoft when someone else can trip over the problems and fix them for us?". Chances are far higher that there is little to no custom or in-house software that needs to be addressed so a small business will move to a new OS only once the downsides to _not upgrading _outweigh the effort of upgrading every workstation. They'll be using cheaper, less powerful tools like Smartdeploy and PDQ instead of SCCM and multicast imaging with WOL cloning clients.

Arguably the worst size company for OS upgrades is likely 5-50 staff where the IT budget and manpower doesn't even justify these automation and deployment suites for in-house IT, and is an unncessary expense if the IT is outsourced at a day rate.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 12, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> IME larger companies are more likely to adopt newer OSes because they have a larger IT department who can spare a person or two to validate the new OS with their hardware and mission-critical software. Someone at the top of the IT food chain will delegate the job and leave that person or persons alone to get on with that job. It's a worthwhile task when talking about eventual rollout to thousands or tens of thousands of machines because it'll need to be done eventually anyway, and they might as well get ahead of it to give themselves plenty of time to tackle compatibility and problems, potentially with custom or in-house software.
> 
> Smaller companies where you have a team of maybe one or two people managing IT don't have the time, resources, or willpower do do the compatibility testing that Microsoft, hardware vendors, and software vendors inevitably fail to fully get right before an OS launch. Not only do they lack the time and resources to test, they likely play it safe because the attitude is "why should I/we beta test this new OS for Microsoft when someone else can trip over the problems and fix them for us?". Chances are far higher that there is little to no custom or in-house software that needs to be addressed so a small business will move to a new OS only once the downsides to _not upgrading _outweigh the effort of upgrading every workstation. They'll be using cheaper, less powerful tools like Smartdeploy and PDQ instead of SCCM and multicast imaging with WOL cloning clients.
> 
> Arguably the worst size company for OS upgrades is likely 5-50 staff where the IT budget and manpower doesn't even justify these automation and deployment suites for in-house IT, and is an unncessary expense if the IT is outsourced at a day rate.


I've worked at many big companies, I haven't yet seen one jump to a new OS within two years smaller companies go long.


----------



## 64K (Jul 12, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> The consumer has less to validate if anything at all ftm.
> My company is looking into 11 but not yet swapping to it, big 15000 people company too ,I have two work PC's so damn I'd guess 25000 on 10 there , where's I personally have two behaving well on 11 and my now old faithful laptop on 10 for retro style.
> It's definitely a thing that companies don't move quickly.



Where I used to work most of us continued to use XP well after MS ended extended support. I think we were paying MS a fee for continued support. New PCs received Win 7. Eventually we all got Win 7. Vista was skipped entirely.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 12, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I've worked at many big companies, I haven't yet seen one jump to a new OS within two years smaller companies go long.


Within two years is still faster than "only when it's forcibly retired" which is how the many SMBs I've worked for or with often treat OS upgrades.

I don't know any SMBs that bothered with Vista or 8. Through the eyes of a small IT department, they were failed beta-tests for 7 and 10 respectively that, in hinsight were a management nightmare and effectively superseded by the time they were trouble-free enough to bother with. Certainly hardware came preinstalled with newer OSes, and was duly wiped/reimaged to the company standard. 

One of the biggest motivators to upgrade, i.e. when I said "small business will move to a new OS only once the downsides to _not upgrading _outweigh the effort of upgrading" is the hassle of getting hardware working on an older, unsupported OS. Laptops are usually the first breed of IT kit that drop support for older OSes. At least 3-4 years before W7 hit end-of-support, laptops were W10 only and you had to _really_ work at getting hotkeys, trackpads, fingerprint readers working if you'd wanted to put the incumbent W7 on it.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 13, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Within two years is still faster than "only when it's forcibly retired" which is how the many SMBs I've worked for or with often treat OS upgrades.
> 
> I don't know any SMBs that bothered with Vista or 8. Through the eyes of a small IT department, they were failed beta-tests for 7 and 10 respectively that, in hinsight were a management nightmare and effectively superseded by the time they were trouble-free enough to bother with. Certainly hardware came preinstalled with newer OSes, and was duly wiped/reimaged to the company standard.
> 
> One of the biggest motivators to upgrade, i.e. when I said "small business will move to a new OS only once the downsides to _not upgrading _outweigh the effort of upgrading" is the hassle of getting hardware working on an older, unsupported OS. Laptops are usually the first breed of IT kit that drop support for older OSes. At least 3-4 years before W7 hit end-of-support, laptops were W10 only and you had to _really_ work at getting hotkeys, trackpads, fingerprint readers working if you'd wanted to put the incumbent W7 on it.


I just think comparatively, many home pc users Just update because of security and lack of knowledge, some just buy with 11 on and live with it so uptake in consumer space is way quicker it's a smaller amount of user's though.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 13, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> I just think comparatively, many home pc users Just update because of security and lack of knowledge, some just buy with 11 on and live with it so uptake in consumer space is way quicker it's a smaller amount of user's though.


Oh for sure.
I know plenty of home users who now have W11 because they thought they had to upgrade as part of regular automatic updates.


----------



## bug (Jul 13, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> IME larger companies are more likely to adopt newer OSes because they have a larger IT department who can spare a person or two to validate the new OS with their hardware and mission-critical software. Someone at the top of the IT food chain will delegate the job and leave that person or persons alone to get on with that job. It's a worthwhile task when talking about eventual rollout to thousands or tens of thousands of machines because it'll need to be done eventually anyway, and they might as well get ahead of it to give themselves plenty of time to tackle compatibility and problems, potentially with custom or in-house software.
> 
> Smaller companies where you have a team of maybe one or two people managing IT don't have the time, resources, or willpower do do the compatibility testing that Microsoft, hardware vendors, and software vendors inevitably fail to fully get right before an OS launch. Not only do they lack the time and resources to test, they likely play it safe because the attitude is "why should I/we beta test this new OS for Microsoft when someone else can trip over the problems and fix them for us?". Chances are far higher that there is little to no custom or in-house software that needs to be addressed so a small business will move to a new OS only once the downsides to _not upgrading _outweigh the effort of upgrading every workstation. They'll be using cheaper, less powerful tools like Smartdeploy and PDQ instead of SCCM and multicast imaging with WOL cloning clients.
> 
> Arguably the worst size company for OS upgrades is likely 5-50 staff where the IT budget and manpower doesn't even justify these automation and deployment suites for in-house IT, and is an unncessary expense if the IT is outsourced at a day rate.


Not in my experience. I've worked for large companies, they have no problem lagging 1-2 years behind.

It is also worth noting this only applies to Windows. Whenever I worked on Linux, I had no problem installing the latest and greatest. And while I haven't worked on macOS, it is my understanding that is also routinely kept pretty up to date.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 13, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Within two years is still faster than "only when it's forcibly retired" which is how the many SMBs I've worked for or with often treat OS upgrades.
> 
> I don't know any SMBs that bothered with Vista or 8. Through the eyes of a small IT department, they were failed beta-tests for 7 and 10 respectively that, in hinsight were a management nightmare and effectively superseded by the time they were trouble-free enough to bother with. Certainly hardware came preinstalled with newer OSes, and was duly wiped/reimaged to the company standard.
> 
> One of the biggest motivators to upgrade, i.e. when I said "small business will move to a new OS only once the downsides to _not upgrading _outweigh the effort of upgrading" is the hassle of getting hardware working on an older, unsupported OS. Laptops are usually the first breed of IT kit that drop support for older OSes. At least 3-4 years before W7 hit end-of-support, laptops were W10 only and you had to _really_ work at getting hotkeys, trackpads, fingerprint readers working if you'd wanted to put the incumbent W7 on it.


This, exactly. Stuff just needs to work and preferably be manageable.

I'm seeing some of the struggles related even to just keeping pace with Windows 10 updates in enterprise. Its actual work costing actual money on top of the licensing and cloud contract. You don't do that for fun or for anyone's profit margin except the one of MS.


----------



## WonkoTheSaneUK (Jul 13, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> why was 11 even released?


This is why


----------



## wheresmycar (Jul 14, 2022)

WonkoTheSaneUK said:


> This is why



lol

This should be Microsofts commercial... it might help to reach a more wholesome 1% opposed to "less than 1%" which is immoral


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 14, 2022)

trparky said:


> The only thing that I really like about Windows 11 is the way that you can hover the mouse over the maximize button and get several ways to tile your windows. Oh, and Bluetooth AAC support too. I have a pair of Sony headphones that support AAC as a Bluetooth audio codec so now I can get high quality audio from my Bluetooth headphones when compared to that of that old codec that sounds like hot garbage.


A lot of people like that feature. I don't use it myself, but why it's a liked feature is easy to understand.


----------



## noel_fs (Jul 14, 2022)

until there is a vertical taskbar im not touching that garbage


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 14, 2022)

noel_fs said:


> until there is a vertical taskbar im not touching that garbage


I hadn't even realised that was gone. Why would Microsoft remove that?

The only answers I can come up with don't look good for Microsoft, and involve the words _lazy, complacent, incompetent, rushed, inconsiderate, clueless, _and _presumptuous._

There's no good reason to use 11. It's devoid of choice, it's missing features, it's fundamentally less effective as an actual _interface_ and it does not respect any of your preferences.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 14, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> I hadn't even realised that was gone. Why would Microsoft remove that?
> 
> The only answers I can come up with don't look good for Microsoft, and involve the words _lazy, complacent, incompetent, rushed, inconsiderate, clueless, _and _presumptuous._
> 
> There's no good reason to use 11. It's devoid of choice, it's missing features, it's fundamentally less effective as an actual _interface_ and it does not respect any of your preferences.


Hi,
Probably get worse 








						Microsoft moves to new Windows development cycle with major release every three years, feature drops in between
					

Microsoft is shifting to a new engineering schedule for Windows which will see the company return to a more traditional three-year release cycle for major versions of the Windows client, while simultaneously increasing the output of new features shipping to the current version of Windows on the...




					www.elevenforum.com


----------



## bug (Jul 15, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> I hadn't even realised that was gone. Why would Microsoft remove that?
> 
> The only answers I can come up with don't look good for Microsoft, and involve the words _lazy, complacent, incompetent, rushed, inconsiderate, clueless, _and _presumptuous._
> 
> There's no good reason to use 11. It's devoid of choice, it's missing features, it's fundamentally less effective as an actual _interface_ and it does not respect any of your preferences.


Apparently getting everything to look good in bith horizontal and vertical positions (icons, tray, window previews and whatnot) is too much work.
For me, that's like a kick in the nuts, considering vertical space is a little more than half of horizontal on a typical monitor.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 15, 2022)

bug said:


> Apparently getting everything to look good in bith horizontal and vertical positions (icons, tray, window previews and whatnot) is too much work.




It's a flat UI with zero graphics to make "look good" so there's literally zero work to make it happen vertically.
Also, the mouseover, previews etc - they're completely floating and not graphically tied to the taskbar. Orientation of the bar is, again, irrelevant.

"Microsoft is as Microsoft does"(n't)


----------



## bug (Jul 15, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> It's a flat UI with zero graphics to make "look good" so there's literally zero work to make it happen vertically.
> Also, the mouseover, previews etc - they're completely floating and not graphically tied to the taskbar. Orientation of the bar is, again, irrelevant.
> 
> "Microsoft is as Microsoft does"(n't)


That was their "justification". I didn't say I bought it 

Edit: I couldn't resist:


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 15, 2022)

bug said:


> Apparently getting everything to look good in bith horizontal and vertical positions (icons, tray, window previews and whatnot) is too much work.
> For me, that's like a kick in the nuts, considering vertical space is a little more than half of horizontal on a typical monitor.


Strange though, its not like they have to redesign icons for a vertical arrangement.

But yeah it does make you wonder what they were thinking. I used vertical taskbars a lot too until they interfered with a few games that wouldn't properly (windowed-) fullscreen anymore. That was on 1080p... at 1440p I kinda no longer need it anymore, ultrawide makes it uncanny too (its waaaay over on the left...)


----------



## bug (Jul 15, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Strange though, its not like they have to redesign icons for a vertical arrangement.


Not the icons, but the layout manager, most likely.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 16, 2022)

noel_fs said:


> until there is a vertical taskbar im not touching that garbage


Then you're missing out. However, I agree with you, there should be that choice.


----------



## trparky (Jul 23, 2022)

StartAllBack to fix all Windows 11 deal-breaking UI issues


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 23, 2022)

trparky said:


> StartAllBack to fix all Windows 11 deal-breaking UI issues


Hi,
Yep all it takes is 10.us 
Pretty lame explorerpatcher does a lot for free.


----------



## mechtech (Jul 23, 2022)

"Windows 11 a Flop, Survey Claims Less Than 1% Upgraded, Microsoft Improves Start Menu"

Well ryzen 1k series and older can't upgrade (automatically) and intel older than 8k series?? is a no go to automatic updates?


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 23, 2022)

mechtech said:


> "Windows 11 a Flop, Survey Claims Less Than 1% Upgraded, Microsoft Improves Start Menu"
> 
> Well ryzen 1k series and older can't upgrade (automatically) and intel older than 8k series?? is a no go to automatic updates?


Hi,
Plenty of workarounds to use if someone wants to upgrade.
Hell I used the upgrade on all machines hopping over all new requirements so it's damn easy to get winmac if someone really wants 11


----------



## mechtech (Jul 23, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Plenty of workarounds to use if someone wants to upgrade.
> Hell I used the upgrade on all machines hopping over all new requirements so it's damn easy to get winmac if someone really wants 11


Indeed, however I wasn't including them.  One of the reasons there is a low upgrade to 11, compared to win7 to win 10, when everyones PC automatically updated from 7 to 10 whether they wanted to or not, windows 11 is blocked due to "old incompatible" hardware.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 23, 2022)

mechtech said:


> windows 11 is blocked due to "old incompatible" hardware.


Remember, that is easily bypassed.


----------



## mechtech (Jul 23, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Remember, that is easily bypassed.


Yes by anyone who takes the time to read/dig a bit.  But for the majority of people.
They give up/quit when they see this screen


----------



## ARF (Jul 23, 2022)

I actually tried to bypass it on my Ryzen 5 2500U notebook, created a USB drive with installation, but couldn't directly upgrade my Windows 10 while keeping all apps and settings, so in the end I rolled back to my back up Windows 10.

Never going to Windows 11 ever again.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 24, 2022)

ARF said:


> I actually tried to bypass it on my Ryzen 5 2500U notebook, created a USB drive with installation, but couldn't directly upgrade my Windows 10 while keeping all apps and settings, so in the end I rolled back to my back up Windows 10.
> 
> Never going to Windows 11 ever again.


You can't upgrade. The bypass is for fresh installs only. So do a fresh install.


----------



## trparky (Jul 24, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Yep all it takes is 10.us
> Pretty lame explorerpatcher does a lot for free.


Yeah, but every time Microsoft changes something, ExplorerPatcher breaks and not in a very nice way. Often it leaves people with a black screen upon user logon and no way to fix things. OK, StartAllBack may cost $10 but it's worth every penny and then some.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Yeah, but every time Microsoft changes something, ExplorerPatcher breaks and not in a very nice way. Often it leaves people with a black screen upon user logon and no way to fix things. OK, StartAllBack may cost $10 but it's worth every penny and then some.


Hi,
Key is not to update bud or at the very least have a system image before manually updating 
This is basic old school shit, what you on auto updating 

But in any case any third party ware would be broken including startallback eventually no need to get mad are you on commission ?


----------



## trparky (Jul 24, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> what you on auto updating


Uh yeah, every second Tuesday of the month I install the update as one should. I even install the secondary updates that Microsoft pushes out between Second-Tuesday updates that include nothing but a laundry list of fixes and yet despite how so many people whine, piss, and moan about how their systems often break for no damn reason, my systems stay nice and stable. Amazing what happens when you don't fuck with things you're not supposed to fuck with.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Uh yeah, every second Tuesday of the month I install the update as one should. I even install the secondary updates that Microsoft pushes out between Second-Tuesday updates that include nothing but a laundry list of fixes and yet despite how so many people whine, piss, and moan about how their systems often break for no damn reason, my systems stay nice and stable. Amazing what happens when you don't fuck with things you're not supposed to fuck with.


That's a bit of a narrow perspective. I tweak, customizes a flat-out delete things microsoft tries to prevent the removal of. I never have problems. You assume too much. Many who have had problems with updates never so much as knew what a tweak was let alone used one. I have to clean up the mess updates create on a regular basis and it rarely has anything to do with user actions or error.


----------



## trparky (Jul 24, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's a bit of a narrow perspective. I tweak, customizes a flat-out delete things microsoft tries to prevent the removal of. I never have problems. You assume too much. Many who have had problems with updates never so much as knew what a tweak was let alone used one. I have to clean up the mess updates create on a regular basis and it rarely has anything to do with user actions or error.


Then explain to me why 99% of the time I have no issues.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

Hi,
Yeah that's quite a load


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Then explain to me why 99% of the time I have no issues.


Lucky? A lot of people don't most of the time. But it's that 5% that do that are the headache. Add the fact that it's not consistent and it amounts to microsoft using the general public as unwitting beta-testers to find their cock-ups, bugs and glitches.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Then explain to me why 99% of the time I have no issues.


Hi,
Soon as you explain why I have no issues 100% of the time ?
I'll give you a clue, backup.


----------



## trparky (Jul 24, 2022)

About the only time that I remember I had a major issue was way back in Windows 10's 1709 days or as I like to call it, Windows 10's infant days. Since then, even Windows 11 has been pretty damn stable with no issues.


ThrashZone said:


> I'll give you a clue, backup.


So do I. Every Sunday night I make a full disk image using Macrium Reflect and if anything were to go wrong, I can boot up from the emergency boot USB flash drive and in about an hour I'm back up and running. But that's generally from my distrust of SSDs back when they were brand new to the PC world and you never knew if your SSD would one day decide that it wouldn't show up in BIOS anymore.

I always have a backup plan in place but luckily, I've never had to actually use it.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Since then, even Windows 11 has been pretty damn stable with no issues.


In general, I would not disagree. Most people will be fine. And 11 has had surprisingly few update problems. Still, vigilance wins the day. I trust almost nothing until it's proven, which is why I was testing every point-release of the 11 beta and release ISO's.



trparky said:


> I always have a backup plan in place


I do too, but...


trparky said:


> but luckily, I've never had to actually use it.


...sadly, I have. Hardware failure.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

Hi,
I haven't touched 11 in sometime now 
Really nothing special there compared to 10 so I use it on my z490 media rig 
And of course x99 media center is on 7 atm no time to play with 11 or 10 on it.
No issues either what the hell is wrong with this


----------



## Dirt Chip (Jul 24, 2022)

Is there a way to upgrade an sandy-bridge i5-2400 system to win 11?
Do you recommend?


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Yeah, but every time Microsoft changes something, ExplorerPatcher breaks and not in a very nice way. Often it leaves people with a black screen upon user logon and no way to fix things. OK, StartAllBack may cost $10 but it's worth every penny and then some.


It doesnt occur to you that because you 'must' keep up to date, you are investing more of your time and resources to keep things running as you want them? 10 bucks to 'fix' things an updated OS breaks feels to me like a fool's errand.

My best practice is maximum delay on updates - the ones you do need directly are still delivered, but W10 major version updates are on a year delay. I always get fully fixed versions by the time they arrive, and all software is adjusted to them as well.


----------



## micropage7 (Jul 24, 2022)

mechtech said:


> Yes by anyone who takes the time to read/dig a bit.  But for the majority of people.
> They give up/quit when they see this screen
> View attachment 255743


when they see this they should be happy when they have old school hardware and limited resources


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 24, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Key is not to update bud or at the very least have a system image before manually updating
> This is basic old school shit, what you on auto updating
> 
> But in any case any third party ware would be broken including startallback eventually no need to get mad are you on commission ?


The irony is strong here. You want to be on the latest and most up-to-date OS but you can't auto-update with the workaround


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Is there a way to upgrade an sandy-bridge i5-2400 system to win 11?
> Do you recommend?


Hi,
Sure mount an older win-11 iso without internet.








						Windows 11 TPM Requirement? Bypass it in 5 Minutes
					

So you have a $2,000 Core i7-6950X HEDT processor, which you thought would last forever, but Windows 11 Setup stands in your way with its steep system requirements that include TPM and Secure Boot. What do you do? With Windows 11, Microsoft introduced new requirements for compatible hardware...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




Heidoc.net


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jul 24, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Is there a way to upgrade an sandy-bridge i5-2400 system to win 11?


Yes, see ThrashZone's reply.


Dirt Chip said:


> Do you recommend?


No.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 24, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> It doesnt occur to you that because you 'must' keep up to date, you are investing more of your time and resources to keep things running as you want them? 10 bucks to 'fix' things an updated OS breaks feels to me like a fool's errand.
> 
> My best practice is maximum delay on updates - the ones you do need directly are still delivered, but W10 major version updates are on a year delay. I always get fully fixed versions by the time they arrive, and all software is adjusted to them as well.


This is a good idea and one that I follow on my main personal use pc (my laptop. Intel) but with having more than one pc I like to have one upto date on 11 so I am exposed to it and absolutely able to use it later IF my company adopted it, they haven't yet so I have 3 on ten and my main rig on 11.
My main rig is always the one to be messed with too so it's actually most convenient as a Test bed.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> The irony is strong here. You want to be on the latest and most up-to-date OS but you can't auto-update with the workaround


Hi,
Not sure I'd say one can't auto update manual updating has worked each time I've used it
But as it states auto updating windows could/ would install updates at anytime and likely before you'd have time to system image first
So you'd likely be up shit creek and maybe relying on a old system image so very sticky


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 24, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Not sure I'd say one can't auto update manual updating has worked each time I've used it
> But as it states auto updating windows could/ would install updates at anytime and likely before you'd have time to system image first
> So you'd likely be up shit creek and maybe relying on a old system image so very sticky


Having a backup process mitigates any issues here, I could wipe any rig I own and not loose a moment's kip.
Of course, freshing up a pc isn't a joy but it also is then a new clean and clear is, which is quite nice in itself.
On all my PC, auto update is on and only once has it deleted my whole world, not great but that's 20 plus years so not that bad either.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jul 24, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Having a backup process mitigates any issues here, I could wipe any rig I own and not loose a moment's kip.
> Of course, freshing up a pc isn't a joy but it also is then a new clean and clear is, which is quite nice in itself.
> On all my PC, auto update is on and only once has it deleted my whole world, not great but that's 20 plus years so not that bad either.


Hi,
10-11 home was made for you two fellows


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 24, 2022)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> 10-11 home was made for you two fellows


Nah always pro , I am never buying into home's limited nature.


----------



## trparky (Jul 24, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> My best practice is maximum delay on updates - the ones you do need directly are still delivered, but W10 major version updates are on a year delay. I always get fully fixed versions by the time they arrive, and all software is adjusted to them as well.


Do you seriously think that I run the beta and alpha versions? Nope, I'm not that stupid. When I talk about "Between Second Tuesday Updates" I refer to updates like this... July 21, 2022—KB5015882 (OS Build 22000.832) Preview (microsoft.com)

Even with those "Preview Updates" I've yet to run into anything that was a show stopping bug. Yet, if you go over to BetaNews.com and you peruse their site, the whole damn site is full of people complaining about how the update sent their systems into BSODs, constant program crashing, etc. while I sit back and wonder what the fuck these people are doing to their systems to cause such absolute instability while I generally have no issues whatsoever.

Seriously. What the fuck are these people doing that are causing so many issues for them? Is it hardware? Are they using the cheapest hardware they can get their hands on? Do they have an unstable overclock that they just won't admit to? I'd love to know the damn answer because holy shit do these people complain.

For instance... Microsoft rolls back KB5014668 update for Windows 11 because it broke the Start menu (betanews.com)

Where? I have no issues yet, here we are, an article that states that people are having issues. WTF! I'd love to know what the hell people are doing to their systems to cause these kinds of issues.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Jul 24, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> Is there a way to upgrade an sandy-bridge i5-2400 system to win 11?
> Do you recommend?


No. You need to do a fresh install with an ISO that has the bypass applied. Upgrades do not work. Backup your files, do a fresh install.



Dirt Chip said:


> Do you recommend?


I do. There are those, as you can see above, who do not.


----------



## chrcoluk (Jul 24, 2022)

I dont know if its been mentioned in this thread but directstorage will work on both 10 and 11, but on 10 the libraries will need to be distributed with the game.


----------



## trparky (Jul 24, 2022)

An i5-2400? No offense but it's time to upgrade. You can't even use NVMe SSDs on the platform.


----------



## Vayra86 (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> Do you seriously think that I run the beta and alpha versions? Nope, I'm not that stupid. When I talk about "Between Second Tuesday Updates" I refer to updates like this... July 21, 2022—KB5015882 (OS Build 22000.832) Preview (microsoft.com)
> 
> Even with those "Preview Updates" I've yet to run into anything that was a show stopping bug. Yet, if you go over to BetaNews.com and you peruse their site, the whole damn site is full of people complaining about how the update sent their systems into BSODs, constant program crashing, etc. while I sit back and wonder what the fuck these people are doing to their systems to cause such absolute instability while I generally have no issues whatsoever.
> 
> ...



Oh but in that sense you have an ally in me, I also strongly believe users make Windows usage way too complicated for their own good, a lot of antivax-level wisdom in those circles  The difference is though, I also believe any kind of 'StartBetter.exe' category app is in a way, part of that crowd. You're band-aiding things that will eventually be just fine. Windows 10 start menu as it is now, is fine. Because of user feedback. Not because of StartBetter  11's is an absolute atrocity. No 11 for me, simple, and that IS user feedback.

Certainly, it is true MS knows better than its userbase in terms of OS stability and overall performance. But it is also true we are unpaid beta testers. The two aren't mutually exclusive  And let's be real here, there is _no way in hell you are going to hit every use case_ in your own usage of the OS.

For my own situation, I ran into Windows update breaking games once, and it was the _one time_ I figured I'd stay up to date and see what would happen. Total War Warhammer 2 got broken by update and it took dev patching to fix it. Sucks if that's what you were going to fire up that night, which I was. That only confirmed everything my gut always told me: maximum delay, or only update if things break. Prior to it, every tiny share of early adopting I experienced in my life, be it a PS3, Windows Vista, domotica devices, or any other thing in software anywhere you go... was a disaster, and never really paid off in my mind in any way shape or form. Even in games, 'being first' is really not more fun than 'being later', but 'being later' certainly guarantees you're not on the leash of a developer pushing out his post-release bug fixing. Heck, even my EV, a VW ID3 Pro, got delivered in Jan 2021 with a 'we're not finished' version of the 'OS' on it, go figure... car's been out a full year back then, and I wasn't early adopting a Tesla for damn sure... And even there, I met quite a few computer errors in its time before the 'good version' was rolled out. Nothing game breaking, but it certainly creates a frown or two when half the detection systems in the car suddenly just crash.

My gaming literally got ten times better when I started sticking rigorously to a 'I'll buy this when its feature complete' principle. I bought Pathfinder Kingmaker when it got into the def. editions and it was a blast. Steam however is full of first experiences that 'do not recommend'. The same happened with the sequel. Looking forward to playing that when they're actually done with it 

EDIT: OK done ninja editing sorry


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## lexluthermiester (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> An i5-2400? No offense but it's time to upgrade.


That's not your decision to make. An i5-2400 is still a reasonably performing CPU, even for some gaming. I run Win11 on an  i3-2310 and it runs fine.


trparky said:


> You can't even use NVMe SSDs on the platform.


Not everyone cares about NVMe. SATA still works well. 

tparky, you are making suggestions from an elitist perspective. Not everyone has that perspective.


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## Dirt Chip (Jul 24, 2022)

trparky said:


> An i5-2400? No offense but it's time to upgrade. You can't even use NVMe SSDs on the platform.


I will upgrade in due time (intel 13 or amd 7000) but one can always use an old, fully functional, PC for many uses. 
With win 11 you are sure to get all the security patch for good 10 years or so.


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## Chrispy_ (Jul 24, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's not your decision to make. An i5-2400 is still a reasonably performing CPU, even for some gaming. I run Win11 on an  i3-2310 and it runs fine.
> 
> Not everyone cares about NVMe. SATA still works well.
> 
> tparky, you are making suggestions from an elitist perspective. Not everyone has that perspective.


Rocking an i7-2600 at work still. I need it to run powershell, putty, and a browser. It is, with the exception of a NUC running a CNC machine, the shittiest PC in the office and it's still overkill.


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