# Creative Announces Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD and USB Sound Blaster X-Fi HD Audio



## btarunr (Mar 12, 2010)

Creative Technology Ltd. today announced the PCI-E Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD and USB Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD, setting the gold standard for PC audio with the first discrete audio card and USB digital audio system to include THX TruStudio PC audio technology.

"The Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD and Sound Blaster X-Fi HD provide the highest quality audio playback of any sound products we have ever introduced, over a period of time where we have sold more than 400 million Sound Blaster cards," said Steve Erickson, Vice President and General Manager of Audio and Video at Creative. "We are thrilled to announce that our newest additions to the Sound Blaster line include THX TruStudio PC audio technology, bringing together two of the most respected names in sound quality to provide an unparalleled audio experience on the PC."






*Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD*
The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD is powered by the second-generation Creative X-Fi Xtreme Fidelity audio processor for PCI Express slots. The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD combines captivating industrial design with audiophile grade Digital to Analog Converters (DACs) and components to produce a 122dB signal-to-noise ratio, the highest SNR ever produced by a Creative sound card. A replaceable Op-amp is also a distinguishing feature allowing users to customise audio output with colouration that is refined to their personal tastes.

Additional product specifications include:
RCA Line Out for audio playback up to 122dB, 24-bit/96kHz Digital-to-Analog Converters (DAC)
RCA Line Input for recording up to 118dB, 24-bit 96kHZ Analog-to-Digital Converters (ADC)
0.001% Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N)
Headphone output for audio listening up to 115dB 33 Ohms, and 117dB, 330 Ohms, at 24bit/96kHz
Replaceable Op-amps
Hardware-accelerated 3D positional audio and EAX 5.0 effects that provide a truly immersive experience with headphones and speakers
Dolby Digital and DTS encoding enables one-step single-cable connection to home entertainment systems
TOS-link optical-in/out
1/8" microphone-in
1/8" headphone jack
Creative ALchemy to restore EAX and surround sound that is otherwise lost in DirectSound game titles running under Windows Vista and Windows 7
ASIO recording support with latency as low as one millisecond with minimal CPU load
Works with Windows Vista and Windows 7 operating systems

*Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD*
Designed as a high definition USB audio solution for notebooks and desktops, the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD USB digital audio system features audiophile-grade recording and playback. It is the only USB digital audio system that includes an analogue phono input, as well as standard audio inputs, enabling users to effortlessly convert analogue audio from their record albums or cassette tapes into MP3, AAC, FLAC and other digital formats. The systems comes with Media Toolbox, a comprehensive software package, including an advanced noise reduction programme that easily remove unwanted clicks, crackles, hums, pops, rumble and other sound imperfections from the tracks after they have been recorded, substantially improving the audio quality for playback.

The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD USB digital audio system also features THX TruStudio PC, bringing the same great audio experience found in live performances, films, and recording studios to laptop and desktop PCs.

Additional product specifications include:
RCA Line Out for audio playback up to 114dB, 24-bit/96kHz Digital-to-Analog Converters (DAC)
RCA/Phono Line Input for recording up to 108dB, 24-bit 96kHZ Analog-to-Digital Converters
TOS-link optical-in/out
Gold-plated 1/4" microphone-in
Gold-plated 1/4" headphone jack
USB-bus powered, no external power supply required
Creative ALchemy to restore EAX and surround sound that is otherwise lost in DirectSound game titles running under Windows Vista and Windows 7
Works with Windows Vista and Windows 7 operating systems

*THX TruStudio PC*
THX TruStudio PC is specially designed to bring the same great audio experience found in live performances, films, and recording studios to the PC. THX TruStudio PC provides groundbreaking PC audio technologies, the result of collaborative research and development from Creative and THX. Together, these technologies deliver the fullest audio experience for music, movies and games, while remaining true to the source and intention of the artistes who created it. THX TruStudio PC includes:

*THX TruStudio PC Surround*
THX TruStudio PC Surround provides immersion control to enhance the natural sense of audio depth and spaciousness by creating virtual surround sound channels. Stereo content or multichannel content played over stereo speakers and headphones will sound as if it is coming from all sides while voices remain centred in front and original balance and timbre is preserved.

*THX TruStudio PC Crystalizer*
THX TruStudio PC Crystalizer restores the natural dynamic range that is lost when iTunes and MP3 music get compressed. This makes the music sound as good as the artiste originally intended, and adds an enhanced level of realism for movies and games.

*THX TruStudio PC Speaker*
THX TruStudio PC Speaker fills in the missing low frequency tones and gives the extra impact for a better entertainment experience. Consumers no longer have to tolerate lack of bass in speakers built into notebook PCs, 2.0 speakers or headphones, as THX TruStudio PC Speaker technology dramatically improves the sound experience without a subwoofer.

*THX TruStudio PC Dialog Plus*
THX TruStudio PC Dialog Plus enhances the voices in movies for clearer dialogue, allowing the listener to hear the dialogue over the rest of the soundtrack and over ambient noise in the listening environment.

*THX TruStudio PC Smart Volume*
THX TruStudio PC Smart Volume addresses the problem of abrupt volume level changes during playback and between songs by automatically and continuously measuring volume, and intelligently applying gain and attenuation to compensate for those changes.

*Pricing and Availability*
The Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD and Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD will be available at The CREATIVE Stores at International Business Park and Marina Square, the online store at sg.store.creative.com and authorised dealers in Singapore from March 2010 onwards at the suggested retail prices of S$299.00 and S$149.00 respectively.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## jasper1605 (Mar 12, 2010)

yay for good sound.  I wonder how my p7p55d deluxe onboard compares against the titanium?  I think it does a pretty darn good job and I for sure have the speakers to test it lol


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## btarunr (Mar 12, 2010)

Those are Singapore Dollars (SGD). USD prices are $199.99, and $99.99, respectively.


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

jasper1605 said:


> yay for good sound.  *I wonder how my p7p55d deluxe onboard compares against the titanium?*  I think it does a pretty darn good job and I for sure have the speakers to test it lol


Quite simply, it doesn't.


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## happita (Mar 12, 2010)

Curious to see more benchmarks from sound cards, you don't see too often the sound cards or other unpopular parts of the computer besides the CPU, graphics card, motherboard, and memory. But then again visual is always the more easily stimulated sense vs hearing. I wonder since EAX is no longer going to be used in future games, what are they going to market now to appeal their image to the sheep? baaaa aaa aaa aaa aaa aaa  joking 

Drivers were always rumored to be horrible on Creative's X-Fi line. Not to mention one of my sound cards would once in a while emit a crazy sound that forced me to turn down my speaker volume, but I switched it out and now no more problems but we'll see.


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## Meizuman (Mar 12, 2010)

It's just plain sad that the majority are sticking with their on-board noise producers... 
And there isn't much competition on the sound card front.

Those THX "technologies" are just pure marketing. 

 PC Surround? Multiple channels mixed in two channels with some added delay and weird echo, WOO look at me I got surround sound! NOT

 PC Speaker? Bass without a subwoofer? Some virtual bass enhancement gimmick that distorts
the lower frequencies so some cardboard-eared vice guy can brag about his tremendous bass output

 PC Crystalizer? YAY for the loudness! Add some bass and treble to give the false feeling that it sounds better! Everyone falls for that...
 Maybe it even smooths some distortion (and flattens the dynamics)

 PC Dialog Plus? OOH, lets boost some mid freqs and call it a day

 PC Smart Volume? Hey, this actually sounds good... If you're player software doesn't already have replay gain


Oh please, just give me a flat frequency response curve and DECENT EQ, parametric one. 
And maybe an option to switch on compression to lower dynamics for night time, adjustable that is.


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## Animalpak (Mar 12, 2010)

Very nice design too.

I prefer Xonar.


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## Meizuman (Mar 12, 2010)

^ Its sad that I prefer the things that don't and won't exist. Damn I'm too demanding...


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## freaksavior (Mar 12, 2010)

They needed HDMI out also for bitstreaming hd audio


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## pr0n Inspector (Mar 12, 2010)

LOL @ Creative trying to be Auzentech.


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## Fourstaff (Mar 12, 2010)

pr0n Inspector said:


> LOL @ Creative trying to be Auzentech.



Creative supplies audio processors to Auzentech, you knowv:shadedshu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auzentech


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## Frick (Mar 12, 2010)

Meizuman said:


> It's just plain sad that the majority are sticking with their on-board noise producers...
> And there isn't much competition on the sound card front.



Totally do not agree. If you're not into sound, that is quite enough. Most people will only yawn if you show them you're way cool Linn speakers and whatever soundcard makes them justice. They might notice if you play some songs, but they still don't care. Onboard Realtech is more than enough for your avarage joe.

I'm a bit of musician, so I can notice, but I still don't care. If I ever get me those awesome spekers I want (but will never buy, I rather buy a decent amp or a new bass or something) I might look into something more, but I'm fine with my onboard.


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

Frick said:


> Totally do not agree. If you're not into sound, that is quite enough. Most people will only yawn if you show them you're way cool Linn speakers and whatever soundcard makes them justice. They might notice if you play some songs, but they still don't care. Onboard Realtech is more than enough for your avarage joe.
> 
> I'm a bit of musician, so I can notice, but I still don't care. If I ever get me those awesome spekers I want (but will never buy, I rather buy a decent amp or a new bass or something) I might look into something more, but I'm fine with my onboard.



It doesn't take an uber set of speakers to hear the difference. Any half decent set of headphones can take advantage of a sound card, and show the shortcomings of on-board sound. You can spend as little as $40 on headphones that make it obvious.


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## Frick (Mar 12, 2010)

Wile E said:


> It doesn't take an uber set of speakers to hear the difference. Any half decent set of headphones can take advantage of a sound card, and show the shortcomings of on-board sound. You can spend as little as $40 on headphones that make it obvious.



Maybe so, but I still maintain onboard sound is enough.


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

Frick said:


> Maybe so, but I still maintain onboard sound is enough.



Yeah, but then again, most people think 128Kb/s MP3's sound fine.


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## pr0n Inspector (Mar 12, 2010)

Fourstaff said:


> Creative supplies audio processors to Auzentech, you knowv:shadedshu
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auzentech



Oh wow I didn't know that!

And do you know why many people prefer Auzentech over Creative? Because their cards have Creative chips AND good analog output AND tweaked, less shitty Creative drivers.


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

pr0n Inspector said:


> Oh wow I didn't know that!
> 
> And do you know why many people prefer Auzentech over Creative? Because their cards have Creative chips AND good analog output AND tweaked, less shitty Creative drivers.



I actually have to agree there. Tried a X-Fi Titanium, but the Forte is leagues better.


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## pr0n Inspector (Mar 12, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Yeah, but then again, most people think 128Kb/s MP3's sound fine.



I tried my HD555 and DT990 on ALC889, it's not THAT bad. Yes there is an obvious difference between onboard and my Essence ST but it's mostly due to the lack of power. I didn't notice any obvious noise. I don't see how average people would be horrified by the difference.


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## Wile E (Mar 12, 2010)

pr0n Inspector said:


> I tried my HD555 and DT990 on ALC889, it's not THAT bad. Yes there is an obvious difference between onboard and my Essence ST but it's mostly due to the lack of power. I didn't notice any obvious noise. I don't see how average people would be horrified by the difference.



Average people generally don't look into buying sound cards either.

And I have a headphone amp, so power isn't an issue. On board just can't do good recordings any justice. Even my Audigy 2 ZS sounds better.


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## tonyd223 (Mar 12, 2010)

I have an X-Fi XtremeMusic I don't use anymore - I know the sound quality is far better than my on-board; I just got annoyed with 

1. the cost of a cable to connect to my front panel audio
2. not working with ubuntu
3. not of any use on my media pc (which has an Audigy in it anyway) as I use the HD4550 HDMI audio to the TV (this will change when I get a receiver sorted)
4. blocking my video card air intake on my motherboard (TA790GX 128M - if you have one you'll know the gfx card needs to go in the lower slot leaving only one PCI slot available and too close...)

So it's sat on my shelf until I decide to put in in again, and try and make up my own cable... anyone got a cable they're not using?


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## Initialised (Mar 12, 2010)

btarunr said:


> Those are Singapore Dollars (SGD). USD prices are $199.99, and $99.99, respectively.


 $99 USD (£66)? Seriously? The Vanilla Titanium is £90 here.


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## H82LUZ73 (Mar 12, 2010)

Why no one has said this so here it goes 

WHO CARES!!! 

I hate Creative bad drivers and bad all around support,Why have this when there is far better sound cards on the market

1,ASUS Xonar 1.3HDMI
2,Forte
3,The Vanilla Xonar
4,Christ the built in sound on most ATI cards will sound better..

This is just my opinion.


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## EarlZ (Mar 12, 2010)

They renamed all the "features" with THX on it [laugh]


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## Tannhäuser (Mar 12, 2010)

Meizuman said:


> It's just plain sad that the majority are sticking with their on-board noise producers...
> And there isn't much competition on the sound card front.
> 
> Those THX "technologies" are just pure marketing.



So, Meizuman, what else do you recommend then? What kind of soundcard do you have in use? 

BTW: There are some benchmarks, showing that a PCI-Soundcard reduces the involved work of the CPU for soundprocessing up to 3%. In comparism with Onboard-Soundchips ...


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## Zubasa (Mar 12, 2010)

Tannhäuser said:


> So, Meizuman, what else do you recommend then? What kind of soundcard do you have in use?
> 
> BTW: There are some benchmarks, showing that a PCI-Soundcard reduces the involved work of the CPU for soundprocessing up to 3%. In comparism with Onboard-Soundchips...


That is 3% on a P4/PD system


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## pr0n Inspector (Mar 12, 2010)

ATI "soundcards" are purely digital.

Also, current ASUS drivers have a major design defect: it cannot match the sample rate of the card to that of ASIO/KS audio on the fly.

example: 
foobar using ASIO, one 44.1k song, one 48k song.
if I play the 44.1k first, the card will switch to 44.1k but when the 48k song plays the card still think it's 44.1k audio and it will play slower! and as you can imagine, 48k then 44.1k would cause the 44.1k song to play faster.
dbl clicking or using pre/next will re-initiate the stream causing the card to switch to the new sample rate.
Xonar Audio Centre settings only affect the default sample rate and as such are useless in this situation.

ASUS said they'll fix this some day....and that was ten months ago.


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## Tannhäuser (Mar 12, 2010)

pr0n Inspector said:


> if I play the 44.1k first, the card will switch to 44.1k but when the 48k song plays the card still think it's 44.1k audio and it will play slower! and as you can imagine, 48k then 44.1k would cause the 44.1k song to play faster.



HOLY S***! And I always had the feeling, that the tracks played with Winamp on my ASUS P5W DH Deluxe-Board with a Soundblaster-Card were running faster than those, played with my Car-HiFi!   This COULD be possible??


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## imperialreign (Mar 12, 2010)

Kinda funny how the audio market has been going the last couple of years - more users have gone over to ASUS, the more users the Xonar recieves, the more complaints are cropping up about _their_ drivers.  I still swear that in over 90% of all cases, it has to do with the users hardware/software configuration, more-so than the drivers themselves.



Anyhow - not exactly buying into the THX hype.  Sure, it's marketing, but all companies are guilty of "logo brandishing."


What I find shocking, though , are the major design departures here for creative - user-replaceable OPAMPs, solid capacitors, much higher speced output quality . . . if I didn't know better, I would think that this is an Auzen licensed X-Fi that has been licensed back to Creative.  This card is boasting (per specs) better output quality than even the ELite Pro . . .

Either way, I think it's a major step forward for Creative - both in the competitive output quality sense, and the competitive pricing.


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## SetsunaFZero (Mar 12, 2010)

H82LUZ73 said:


> Why no one has said this so here it goes
> 
> WHO CARES!!!
> 
> ...



same here, i very disappointed bout creative -.-"
bought a XF-i Titanium some months ago the sound is a bit better but the drivers are still bugy  creative :shadedshu
the hw is good but creative's driver support is pure bs. My next sound card will be an asus  xonar  
I'll never buy an creative product again


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## kenkickr (Mar 12, 2010)

freaksavior said:


> They needed HDMI out also for bitstreaming hd audio



+1 to that.  For being roughly $200 bucks I'd spend $50 more and grab the Auzentech X-fi Hometheater HD or the Asus HDAVI if I could do it all over again just to have the hdmi bit sampling.


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## Animalpak (Mar 12, 2010)

H82LUZ73 said:


> Why no one has said this so here it goes
> 
> WHO CARES!!!
> 
> ...



Yes, when changing effects in the console X-fi sound is not changed at all seems to be a joke, I have a logitech 5.1 system Z 5400. 


Try a Xonar and you will impress every button has a real and concrete change in sound reproduction.


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## Tannhäuser (Mar 12, 2010)

Asus HDAVI: Is the black thingy a catch basin für a leaking water coolage system?


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## dimensi (Mar 12, 2010)

Onkyo SE-200PCI Limited Edition ... no one come close .... IMHO


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 12, 2010)

IMO it looks like they're trying to compete with the Asus Xonar STX somewhat with the added benefit that it fully supports EAX unlike Asus's DS3DGX EAX emulation which is pretty hit or miss when it comes to Direct Sound games (I payed £140 for a STX to find out the hardway -_-)

Id say this is a kick ass card so long as driver support pulls through


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## dimensi (Mar 12, 2010)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Id say this is a kick ass card so long as driver support pulls through



second that! 

im M-Audio Revolution 7.1 user ... till now they closed the development of Windows 7 drivers .. crap


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## KainXS (Mar 12, 2010)

Trustudio is only X-Fi with a different name and different tweaks.

old news though . . . . .


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## bim27142 (Mar 12, 2010)

creative driver support sucks big time as it has always been. i've been dying to look for a xonar in my area and damn just couldn't fine one. i'll stick with realtek on-board for now using the mobo's optical out going towards my z-5500... sounds good for me now...


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## WarEagleAU (Mar 12, 2010)

Id still pick this card up. Id really love to have an all in one Auzentech with the HDMI, but also not just for hometheaters but music, games, movies, etc.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 12, 2010)

bim27142 said:


> creative driver support sucks big time as it has always been. i've been dying to look for a xonar in my area and damn just couldn't fine one. i'll stick with realtek on-board for now using the mobo's optical out going towards my z-5500... sounds good for me now...



If your a gamer, id highly suggest you stick with Creative. Xonar's are good card but are a bit of a let down when it comes to gaming until they manage to stablise the DS3D EAX emulation engine they use. but for music & movies it will wipe the floor with the XFi's. as far as driver support goes - its almost none. since Windows 7 started beta testing 7100 till full on RTM release there has only been 3 driver updates, their not all bug free either so a fair few people have had issues with their cards on Windows vista/7 systems. & from what i have seen & heard, Asus staff dont moderate/visit their own forums for feedback on drivers. leaving pretty much in the shit when they have problems but on the other hand there are a handfull of really knowledgeable audiophiles that lurk around the forums & they are a great help if you have minor issues but unfortunately their help doesnt stretch to driver support.

so for the time being, pick up a really really cheap XFi Xtreme gamer or something & save your pennies


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## LaidLawJones (Mar 12, 2010)

I bought an Azuntech  Prelude on sale as kind of fill the empty slot idea. I could argue that this was the best part of build. The difference in quality was incredible. Even through my somewhat cheesy logitech (Z2300) 2.1 speakers. The sound through my headset is fantastic.

This is the only sound card I have used and I am sure that there are better cards out there. 

If companies would do more demo's, then they might sell more cards. The consumer has to be able to hear the difference. Graphics are cool, but when you couple decent graphics to an awesome sound card, the immersion becomes that much better.

If I was to buy a new system and could afford say $600 (dreaming) on a card, I would spend $400 on a card and then get a sound card. 

The sound card companies have to get the average Joe/Jane to listen to the difference. They could sell more cards and could then sell cheaper etc.

Long post short. If you never thought about a sound card and think onboard is o.k., then save a little bit up and look for a sale and buy one, whichever brand you like. $100 cdn for mine on surprise sale.


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## fluxc0d3r (Mar 12, 2010)

jasper1605 said:


> yay for good sound.  I wonder how my p7p55d deluxe onboard compares against the titanium?  I think it does a pretty darn good job and I for sure have the speakers to test it lol



Your motherboard's VIA onboard sound is horrible. It has a lower dynamic range, stereo crosstalk, etc than most realtek chipsets. The best onboard chipsets are found on Asrock motherboards, such as the Realtek alc890, or get the alc885 on DFI motherboards, which are top performers in onboard sound.  People think the alc889 is the best chipset right now, but in fact, its worse than the alc890 and the alc885. This information was based on tests conducted at hardware.info.


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## pjladyfox (Mar 12, 2010)

Normally I'd be pretty excited by this but based upon past experience with Creative this is just another money-grab where they quickly "obsolete" their older cards stopping all driver support for them. And then there is the other issues I see right off the bat:

Titanium HD

- No provision for Toslink output
- No provision for analog optical output
- No provision for HDMI output (mainly for those using NVIDIA video cards)
- Removal of 3.5mm front/center/rear jacks
- Addition of unnecessary metal bracket/casing around the card itself
- Removal of support for XP
- Needlessly expensive compared to previous generation cards
- Historically buggy drivers and over-complicated interface
- Historically buggy 64-bit drivers

X-Fi HD

- No provision for analog optical output
- No provision for HDMI output (mainly for those using NVIDIA video cards)
- Removal of 3.5mm front/center/rear jacks
- Removal of support for XP
- Historically buggy drivers and over-complicated interface
- Historically buggy 64-bit drivers

If I'm going to spend $200+ on a sound card I'll go with one based on the C-Media CMI8770 or Oxygen HD and never again on a Creative card. I got burned with the X-Fi Fatal1ty and I'll not do that EVER again.


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## jasper1605 (Mar 12, 2010)

fluxc0d3r said:


> Your motherboard's VIA onboard sound is horrible. It has a lower dynamic range, stereo crosstalk, etc than most realtek chipsets. The best onboard chipsets are found on Asrock motherboards, such as the Realtek alc890, or get the alc885 on DFI motherboards, which are top performers in onboard sound.  People think the alc889 is the best chipset right now, but in fact, its worse than the alc890 and the alc885. This information was based on tests conducted at hardware.info.



That was painful to read for my bank account   Thanks for putting it straight though good sir


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## johnnyfiive (Mar 12, 2010)

I've never had any issues with my X-Fi Xtreme Gamer and anyone who thinks on-board is better than even the lowest X-Fi card needs to have their ears checked. Take any decent pair of cans and you will hear a complete difference in overall quality. Why do you think my BC2 knife kills are so high? Cause I hear people and sneak around them with ease.


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## LaidLawJones (Mar 12, 2010)

I concur. The first time I heard a guy coming up behind me, I spun around and emptied a clip into him. It went from a knife kill for him to a stat for me. Love that sound card


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Mar 12, 2010)

Uh, are they insane? Releasing more useless pcie hardware when the crap they already have on the market doesn't even work? Put this money into drivers instead and you'll get a larger profit from increased sales then you would from adding a new half-asses highend part. The majority of their driver issues they won't even acknowledge as existing.


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## REVHEAD (Mar 12, 2010)

I hve a xfi Fatality, and a Xonar Essance STX, and a Xonar 1.3 for my HTPC, I see this new XFI card as a way to compete with the latter 2 cards, EAX is dead, but positional sound will never die.

 I play BFBC2 on windows 7 with 7.1 emulation, and running a set of Sennhieser HD595s, I have had both my XFI and STX in game and the Asus Version is in a legue of its own, I am now falling out of favour with Creative.

 This new card looks good on paper and most likely is, but not having the larger HP and Mic jacks is a real let down , because for such a high end card most users would or should be running high end Headphones, other than that the card looks awsome, but I see no reason for someone not to buy the cheaper Essance STX with superb sound.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 12, 2010)

REVHEAD said:


> I play BFBC2 on windows 7 with 7.1 emulation, and running a set of Sennhieser HD595s, I have had both my XFI and STX in game and the Asus Version is in a legue of its own, I am now falling out of favour with Creative



Had any CTD's with that STX in Win7+BC2??? its happend a few times to me


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## RejZoR (Mar 12, 2010)

Looks like an ASUS Xonar STX competitor.


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 12, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> Looks like an ASUS Xonar STX competitor.



thats exactly what I said


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## FordGT90Concept (Mar 12, 2010)

Will avoid.  Hardware is useless without good, unbloated drivers.


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## imperialreign (Mar 12, 2010)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Id say this is a kick ass card so long as driver support pulls through



Based on what I've seen over the last year, Creative have made a major turn around in their drivers and support . . .

Still wish they'd move to a more regular release schedule - but, hell, 3-4 driver packs and software updates a year is now better than the original once a year BS they were doing.



pjladyfox said:


> Normally I'd be pretty excited by this but based upon past experience with Creative this is just another money-grab where they quickly "obsolete" their older cards stopping all driver support for them.



I've brought this up so many countless times before . . . why do you feel they should support cards that are over 10 years old?

Seriously, the amount of bitching people did when they cut support for the Live! series . . . 10 years after the cards release . . . I mean, c'mon - the PC world had moved through WIN 2000/ME, through XP, and was already into Vista, and people were complaining about losing support for a card that was initially designed for WIN98.

Same goes with the Audigy series.  People are still complaining about the cut-off on the driver support (although Creative have still released a couple more XP driver updates since), on cards that are nearing 10 years old.

What other form of PC hardware recieves support from the manufacturer for so long, and what other forms of hardware are still capable of handling the modern PC workload?  Very few compared to those still using "out-dated" audio cards.  I mean, you can't exactly get by anymore on a Pentium II, nor a VooDoo3 anymore . . . but yet, people that own these *antique* audio cards still seem to think "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

It gets to a point were a manufacturer doesn't have a choice but to cut driver support for the hardware.  We don't see people complain about cut-offs for video cards or chipset drivers, as the vast majority of users have already moved on to new hardware.  Give it about 10 years, and I'm sure we'll see the same bitching when ASUS starts cutting support for the first generation of Xonar cards.




> - No provision for Toslink output
> - No provision for analog optical output
> - No provision for HDMI output (mainly for those using NVIDIA video cards)



Didn't really read the listed specs, did you? . . . They're claiming TOSLINK I/O support, and based on the 4 RCA connections, and the Dolby digital support, I'd bet good money one pair of outputs is for digital via an adapter . . .

. . . and if so, that same pair of digital RCA outputs will support coaxial SPDIF . . .

If one is using a reciever unit, there's still digital connectivity available.  Granted, it's not as 1337 as having native TOSLINK, but how many other "audiophile" cards support native TOSLINK (not having a need for an adapter)?  The Forte doesn't, neither does the Bravura, nor the HomeTheater HD, nor the Prelude or the older Meridian - and only a couple of those support HDMI out.  On ASUS' side, the Xonar D2X, Xonar DX, nor the Essence STX support a "native" TOSLINK connection.  If you're that much in need of simply the best output quality, an adapter is not considered the "right" way to go about with I/O. 




> - Removal of 3.5mm front/center/rear jacks
> - Addition of unnecessary metal bracket/casing around the card itself



The card is aimed at home theater use . . . as with other cars in this category, multi mini-jack connectivity isn't really needed.  The majority of users who would be more interested in this level of card are more the likely going to be using either digital or analogue RCA-based connections.

As to the bracket, more than likely a "see-through" for the image.  I'd be good money that will turn out to be a full-blown EMI shield . . . of which, there's heavy need for in the modern rig.



> - Removal of support for XP



Really?  Where did you read that?



> - Needlessly expensive compared to previous generation cards



Niot quite - it's on-par with other competing cards in it's category.



> - Historically buggy drivers and over-complicated interface
> - Historically buggy 64-bit drivers



And you're basing this on?

Granted, there have been a few issues here and there - as much as there has been with the Xonar series, or cards from other manufacturers.

90% of the time, though, the issue lies with that of the user - either their hardware configuration, or conflicting drivers/apps.

Audio cards are very sensitive pieces of equipment, and have been notorious for not playing well with other hardware - it's been the same for the last 20 years, no matter who the card manufacturer is.  At the very least, we can say that in this modern age, setup is a helluva lot easier than it was when audio cards were still on the ISA standard, or just moving to PCI.






LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Uh, are they insane? Releasing more useless pcie hardware when the crap they already have on the market doesn't even work? Put this money into drivers instead and you'll get a larger profit from increased sales then you would from adding a new half-asses highend part. The majority of their driver issues they won't even acknowledge as existing.



<sigh>

I give up . . . ignorance is definitely bliss . . .

. . . and I'm suddenly getting the urge to start bleating like a sheep, too.


----------



## fluxc0d3r (Mar 12, 2010)

dimensi said:


> Onkyo SE-200PCI Limited Edition ... no one come close .... IMHO
> 
> http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2940/kaihatuimg00.jpg



I totally agree, but the Lynx 2 soundcard is still the best.


----------



## SetsunaFZero (Mar 12, 2010)

realtek should aim for the high end sound card market they IC ain't bad and the driver support is good.  would be epic if they release one


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Mar 12, 2010)

SetsunaFZero said:


> realtek should aim for the high end sound card market they IC ain't bad and the driver support is good.  would be epic if they release one



it would be pretty cool if part of the company split & went on to make direct competitors to creative & Asus. but I think they probably have no interest in that part of the market.

they make built in audio & network cards for almost every single damn peice of computer related hardware on the planet. they probably get millions in royalties everytime Asus or whoever ships a batch of motherboards or laptops etc etc that have one of their network cards or audio chipsets. they are comfortable & even though they could spare the cash & get their R&D teams on it they probably wont because they dont need to. im sure a top dog in RT has thought about that prospect & probably thinks there is no reason to go there as they are still making loads of money. if it aint broke dont fix it - the saying goes...

but one thing they could fix is their website, its so god damn slow & half the links they have for drivers dont even work. they sack their webadmin or something???

I always dred going to their site for drivers.


----------



## SetsunaFZero (Mar 13, 2010)

@FreedomEclipse: check out guru3d.com download section. they always have the new RT drivers.
RT's webpage is rly fu slow, their server localization is in taiwan i guess. With their income they could rent any webserver on the world :?


----------



## pjladyfox (Mar 13, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> I've brought this up so many countless times before . . . why do you feel they should support cards that are over 10 years old?



I trimmed the rest of your reply mainly due to length but wished to focus on this particular aspect first since everything else is based on it.

Nowhere in my post, implied or otherwise, did I say they should support older cards. My problem is directly related to the complete and utter lack of support for the entire X-Fi line of sound cards which are WAY younger than 10 years old since they were released around 2006 which is when I payed $250+ for my Fatal1ty Pro. For example, the X-Fi STILL has the same frigging problems that it had when the card launched:

- Lack of proper 64-bit OS support (a bug that started under Vista 64-bit)
http://forums.creative.com/t5/Windo...esn-t-start-after-installing-X-Fi/td-p/538347

- STILL has issues where the audio intermittently pops and crackles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster_X-Fi#Sound_issues_with_crackling_and_popping

- STILL has issues where, for no reason at all, you get a high-pitched squeal during various different games

And don't EVEN give me the bunk excuse of "well it's x years old" since they are essentially using just a re-spin of the same frigging EMU20K1 just with a new coat of paint. You are entitled to your "OMG!! I  Creative!!" opinion but until you've run a 64-bit OS and dealt with the myriad of problems a lot of us have been dealing with since the cards came out you either have no clue what you are talking about or work for Creative.


----------



## Roph (Mar 13, 2010)

Gotta laugh at audiophiles who waste hundreds on sound cards and "special" cables


----------



## ToTTenTranz (Mar 13, 2010)

Hey look, yet another "let's all talk crap about creative" thread.
I thought these were instinct in 2008 or so. 
Turns out all the ogres were just waiting for creative to launch new cards in order to come out and throw the same old bashing.


I got an XtremeMusic in my desktop for 4 years and I've had nearly zero problems with the card or its drivers.
Got a X-Fi 5.1 USB for the laptop when I went to study abroad, zero problems again.


----------



## DirectorC (Mar 13, 2010)

These news actually make me think of finally buying a new top-end card from Creative.  Never have, never thought I would, but hmm... pair it with a nice home theater surround system... we'll see what pockets tell me when I'm finally working again this summer.

Edit: As far as the crap talking about Creative, I have to agree with you ToTTenTranz.  I got my first Creative card, an SB Live years ago and never had a problem with it.  Went Audigy back in 07 and haven't looked back.


----------



## Apocalypsee (Mar 13, 2010)

The spec looks nice, judging by the high DR of 122dB I guessing it might use Burr Brown DAC similar to Xonar ST/STX. From the pic, it looks like they finally use solid caps instead of cheap Jamicon and Wincap that are prone to leak

Huge plus to me:
-Dedicated headphone jack
-RCA in and out

I been using Creative cards from Pentium III era, never use onboard at all. So far there are no major problem that I can't fix


----------



## Meizuman (Mar 13, 2010)

Tannhäuser said:


> So, Meizuman, what else do you recommend then? What kind of soundcard do you have in use?
> 
> BTW: There are some benchmarks, showing that a PCI-Soundcard reduces the involved work of the CPU for soundprocessing up to 3%. In comparism with Onboard-Soundchips ...



This will be a monster post, sorry.

Well. I must say I really don't know yet. I have just a budget Audigy SE and it has served me quite well with modded drivers.

But I have been thinking of taking the PC audio to the next level... but then again I have quite a bunch of low/mid quality MP3's and I definitely can't get my hands on FLAC versions of any of those... since I mainly listen to electronic and dance. I've been thinking about going to some high quality product and to have some future-proofing on that side. I would definitely like it to have good DSP abilities... Then again, maybe I'm living in the old world. I havent even used HDMI yet (well once, some girl couldn't get his PS3 to show on his TV)... 

"I'm too old for this sh*t"

And I haven't even started yet (the true guest to HiFi), because lack of funds.

The experiences I have from integrated audio... only one mobo had good enough SNR, so there wasn't any annoyance in the sound, that was Epox 8RDA3+.

I've been through some mobos and the two last ones were 790GP-DS4H and 790GP-UD4H. Both have "High quality 106dB SNR ALC889A HD audio" And of course, I tried the onboard on both just to determine if it's any good...

I put on my headphones and the second I plugged in my laser mouse, I was saluted by this annoying squeal... At least my ears are more than delicate to that kind of interference. The movement of mouse caused the squealing. I tried to drop the polling rate to lower Hz and it somewhat helped. But that was a deal breaker. And both mobos did just that.

Also I have tested some of the more generic computers (in classrooms and such). Once you plug a USB stick in, it all goes to hell. Plain interference. 

[history part]
In fact my first own computer build started from a sound card. We had some Asrock based socket A rig back in the day as a family computer and I listened a lot of music with it. At some point I got a nervous brakedown because all that interference. So, I went to a PC store and bought whatever was cheap, a bulk Audigy SE. Back at home, I simply couldn't get it to work because the PCI slots on the asrock wouldn't work. After a little while I bought that Epox used from Germany and build my first own rig. That was around 2006-2007 (!!)
[/history part]


----------



## imperialreign (Mar 13, 2010)

pjladyfox said:


> I trimmed the rest of your reply mainly due to length but wished to focus on this particular aspect first since everything else is based on it.
> 
> Nowhere in my post, implied or otherwise, did I say they should support older cards. My problem is directly related to the complete and utter lack of support for the entire X-Fi line of sound cards which are WAY younger than 10 years old since they were released around 2006 which is when I payed $250+ for my Fatal1ty Pro. For example, the X-Fi STILL has the same frigging problems that it had when the card launched:
> 
> ...



I love some of these blind views people love to throw out, and how quick some users are to start with the "flanboi" insults.  How mature. 

What complete and utter lack of support for the X-Fi line are you talking about?! 
You don't check for driver updates very often, do you?  There've been countless driver (and software) updates within the last year alone.

I can't agree with your statement about the APU - reason being is that yes, the CA20K1 is a re-designation for the EMU20K1 . . . but neither of those _APUs_ were ever installed into the Audigy line.  The E-Mu was specific to the E-Mu cards, and the CA20K1 was simply re-designated for use on the Creative cards . . . and these were introduced with the X-Fi series - not before.

The current APU, the CA20K2, is based heavily off the CA20K1 architecture - with a few improvements.  For the general user, it's biggest benefit is being a native PCIE chip, it doesn't require the use of a "translator" like competing PCIE cards do.



As to your complaints with the OS - I currently run 2 64bit OSes and have gone through quite a few different X-Fi models . . . and not once have I ever encountered any issue.  As well, I've heard very few complaints from the general users running 64b OSes with issues, either.  All of my older X-Fi models still operate perfectly fine . . . even the first gen Fatal1ty Pro PCI that I have laying around.

Again, many times it boils down to one's hardware and software configurations.

The 8GB error is something that originated with the Vista OS, and has been cropping up with OS7 . . . funny, as other audio manufacturers have run into similar problems with 64b installations with 8GB/DRAM.  Xonars have their fair share of problems with similar setups, from crashing games to corrupt registry entries as well.




Intermittent crackling audio is not typically a fault of the card, nor is it typically a fault of the drivers.  This noise is audio clipping, which occurs when the output stream is spending too much time in the buffers . . . the signal starts to break down.  It's usually caused by hardware competing for the SYS BUS, or maintaining control of the BUS for too long.  nVidia hardware has been NOTORIOUS for this problem, especially motherboards equipped with nVidia NSBs.  The problem isn't pinned down to one specific brand of audio card, it can happen with any of them . . . the only reason its been more of an issue with X-Fi cards is due to their much higher bandwidth the APU requires, compared to the much slower C-Media DSPs.

Only real way to get away from the problem is to move up to a native PCIE interface - the translator chips on most PCIE audio cards add even more latency, which can quickly negate any benefit from moving the audio onto a PCIE channel.




If you hear high-pitched squealing intermitently, and especially from one or two specific channels, and tend to run with your overall average volume set over 50% (between the WIN control panel, the audio driver's control panel and the game), you've more than likely got a failing OPAMP . . . tends to happen over time, and especially if you've run with the volume above 50%.  The higher the volume, the harder you're forcing that OPAMP to work; add in potential EMI that it's picked up from neighboring components, heat from neighboring components, and rapid volume fluctuations (typically found in games) - it leads a very hard life. 

I can't recall but a very few rare instances where a card made this type of noise brand new, or even shortly after the owner purchased the unit.  This noise is usually the result from user abuse, more-so than the fault of the card itself.  Good news, though, the OPAMPs can be replaced with some moderate soldering skills, and the card will continue to serve quite well . . .


----------



## pjladyfox (Mar 13, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> I love some of these blind views people love to throw out, and how quick some users are to start with the "flanboi" insults.  How mature.



This coming from the person who has the little Creative sticker in the bottom of every post. Note here that you're the one that came out swinging on this one not me claiming that I said something I did not and then went on your little "Creative can do no wrong" tirade accusing those of us who have had nothing but issues as crackpots or liars. 

The sad part about this entire exchange between the two of us is if you had condenced the last two paragraphs of this post into your inital reply, instead of resorting to "Creative can do no wrong" speech, things never really would have gotten this far. Heck, I would have THANKED YOU for the information and we could have moved onwards.

I cut the rest of my replies to your comments since, in the grander scheme of things, it just would have made things worse. That and I never expected to get into some kind of argument with a fellow TPU person over something that really we both see differently.



imperialreign said:


> As to your complaints with the OS - I currently run 2 64bit OSes and have gone through quite a few different X-Fi models . . . and not once have I ever encountered any issue.  As well, I've heard very few complaints from the general users running 64b OSes with issues, either.  All of my older X-Fi models still operate perfectly fine . . . even the first gen Fatal1ty Pro PCI that I have laying around.
> 
> Again, many times it boils down to one's hardware and software configurations.
> 
> The 8GB error is something that originated with the Vista OS, and has been cropping up with OS7 . . . funny, as other audio manufacturers have run into similar problems with 64b installations with 8GB/DRAM.  Xonars have their fair share of problems with similar setups, from crashing games to corrupt registry entries as well.



Again, I never said that other companies were innocent of the problem which is why I'm not using a C-Media sound card in my gaming system. I got fed up with the money grubbing over an issue that should have been fixed after it was first found under Vista. Onboard audio, while not ideal, at least works every single time I use it without a hiccup or complaint. 



imperialreign said:


> Intermittent crackling audio is not typically a fault of the card, nor is it typically a fault of the drivers.  This noise is audio clipping, which occurs when the output stream is spending too much time in the buffers . . . the signal starts to break down.  It's usually caused by hardware competing for the SYS BUS, or maintaining control of the BUS for too long.  nVidia hardware has been NOTORIOUS for this problem, especially motherboards equipped with nVidia NSBs.  The problem isn't pinned down to one specific brand of audio card, it can happen with any of them . . . the only reason its been more of an issue with X-Fi cards is due to their much higher bandwidth the APU requires, compared to the much slower C-Media DSPs.
> 
> Only real way to get away from the problem is to move up to a native PCIE interface - the translator chips on most PCIE audio cards add even more latency, which can quickly negate any benefit from moving the audio onto a PCIE channel.



That would most likely explain why the onboard Realtek audio, while not the best, tends to work more often than the $200+ dollar sound card I've got sitting in a box that I'm trying to get rid of since I'm tired of dealing with it.



imperialreign said:


> If you hear high-pitched squealing intermittently, and especially from one or two specific channels, and tend to run with your overall average volume set over 50% (between the WIN control panel, the audio driver's control panel and the game), you've more than likely got a failing OPAMP . . . tends to happen over time, and especially if you've run with the volume above 50%.  The higher the volume, the harder you're forcing that OPAMP to work; add in potential EMI that it's picked up from neighboring components, heat from neighboring components, and rapid volume fluctuations (typically found in games) - it leads a very hard life.
> 
> I can't recall but a very few rare instances where a card made this type of noise brand new, or even shortly after the owner purchased the unit.  This noise is usually the result from user abuse, more-so than the fault of the card itself.  Good news, though, the OPAMPs can be replaced with some moderate soldering skills, and the card will continue to serve quite well . . .



Very interesting and it would explain why the Auzentech we have for our media center stopped squealing after the OPAMP's were replaced by my husband by a friend of his. 

For my part, if I came off in a way that you took offense to that was not my intention and was rather me just venting over what appeared to be yet another money grab IMHO by Creative. However, that said, you really need to dial back on your rhetoric where you give the impression that everyone should bow at the altar of Creative and that they can do no wrong since that is VERY far from the truth and you admitted as such yourself.

At this point, I think I've pretty much said my peace about all of this. This is going to be one of those situations where I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

Peace?


----------



## TAViX (Mar 13, 2010)

As an old user of a vanilla X-FI Titaniun PCI-X card, I can tell you this:

- I have absolutely no problems with the drivers in Win7-64. None. 
- The Alchemy works flawlessly for the older games
- The X-Fi Crystalizer works best and wilds the best results if it's set somewhere between 20 and 40%
- The Graphic equalizer, EAX effects, Surround  Mode, etc, all works flawlessly
- Changing the mode from Entertainment to Gaming it's a little annoying (read VERY ANNOYING)
- You loose some of the presets when changing modes, and also every time you change the mode, the mic port opens giving you the extremely annoying fsssssss sound. Seems than the Creative Console Louncher  is as buggy as the drivers used to be...


Regarding the USB X-Fi.

So it doesn't support HARDWARE EAX 5.0??????


----------



## DirectorC (Mar 13, 2010)

TAViX said:


>



Biggest e-p33n ever!!!



BTW thanks for chiming in on the side of Creative.  They are not all that bad.  I also had no problems with 64-bit X-Fi drivers on Vista/7, and that was on this Audigy SE.


----------



## EarlZ (Mar 13, 2010)

I've never really had major issues with the X-Fi until i moved to 5.1 just on some games, on some games i can hear some popping or crackling here and there but its very rare.. only in dragon age so far.. switching to 2.1 removes that issue so its a 5.1 mode problem.

Maybe I need to put up some alchemy entries for dragon age?


----------



## Scrizz (Mar 13, 2010)

ToTTenTranz said:


> Hey look, yet another "let's all talk crap about creative" thread.
> I thought these were instinct in 2008 or so.
> Turns out all the ogres were just waiting for creative to launch new cards in order to come out and throw the same old bashing.
> 
> ...



I haven't had any problems with any of my creative cards


----------



## pr0n Inspector (Mar 13, 2010)

TAViX said:


> As an old user of a vanilla X-FI Titaniun PCI-X card, I can tell you this:
> 
> - I have absolutely no problems with the drivers in Win7-64. None.
> - The Alchemy works flawlessly for the older games
> ...



Why would you even touch that shit?


----------



## RejZoR (Mar 13, 2010)

Roph said:


> Gotta laugh at audiophiles who waste hundreds on sound cards and "special" cables



You can laugh all you want but it DOES make quite some difference. And you have to decide what's your top priority. For gaming, X-Fi is still hard to beat. All the small gizmos and gadgeds that make 3D sound positioning a true masterpiece experience. But it sounds kinda flat for music. On the other hand, ASUS Xonar STX offers superior music quality, but has quite some problems with games. Sure, when it works, it's great. But when it doesn't, it's just bad.
I've had Xtreme Music and i was quite satisfied with it. No driver issues (i used only Console Launcher and drivers, no other crap) and it worked perfectly on all systems. So, if i decide for X-Fi HD gaming experience for some reason, i'd pick it up without much thinking. But since i don't play that much games anymore i'll stick with STX.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Mar 13, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> What complete and utter lack of support for the X-Fi line are you talking about?!
> You don't check for driver updates very often, do you?  There've been countless driver (and software) updates within the last year alone.



If you find counting higher than 1 to be uncountable, or "countless", then I think you're in trouble. Trust me, I check their site for updates on drivers, control panel, and alchemy, etc once a month and it's been far from countless. It really feels like you're pulling stuff out of your bum.

And I have to say, pci-e sound card in 32 bit vista = no popping, same card in 64 bit vista = equals situational popping... does not seem like user error to me. While we're on the topic, have you allowed yourself to realize that successive creative driver releases have decreased sound quality? The best sounding driver I had for my Fatality was from 3 years ago. It's been left to community members to restore the quality and fix the bugs with unofficial drivers. Then there's the response we've seen from creative, none. An issue is proven to exist in the user community, creative ignores it, ignores support tickets, and apparently bans naysayers. Creative's management isn't just incompetent, it's practically cannibalistic. If you've been lucky enough to not encounter these issues, then good for you, but as for the rest of us we're tired of their BS.


----------



## Wile E (Mar 13, 2010)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> If you find counting higher than 1 to be uncountable, or "countless", then I think you're in trouble. Trust me, I check their site for updates on drivers, control panel, and alchemy, etc once a month and it's been far from countless. It really feels like you're pulling stuff out of your bum.
> 
> And I have to say, pci-e sound card in 32 bit vista = no popping, same card in 64 bit vista = equals situational popping... does not seem like user error to me. While we're on the topic, have you allowed yourself to realize that successive creative driver releases have decreased sound quality? The best sounding driver I had for my Fatality was from 3 years ago. It's been left to community members to restore the quality and fix the bugs with unofficial drivers. Then there's the response we've seen from creative, none. An issue is proven to exist in the user community, creative ignores it, ignores support tickets, and apparently bans naysayers. Creative's management isn't just incompetent, it's practically cannibalistic. If you've been lucky enough to not encounter these issues, then good for you, but as for the rest of us we're tired of their BS.


Don't you think hardware degradation might play a part in the loss of sound quality?


----------



## RejZoR (Mar 13, 2010)

I was using X-Fi Xtreme Music on Vista 32bit and 64bit and never had any pops. Same with Xonar STX. Works perfectly under Vista 64bit.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Mar 13, 2010)

I too was using an XFi Titanium Fagtality Pro on 64 bit Vista & Win7 & tbh asside from the borked drivers really early which caused me a lot of agro & time wasted messing around with reinstalls & what not. every function I have enabled has worked flawlessly till the opamps went south.... but otherwise a top card & I wouldnt hesitate to buy another one but unfortunately I decided to go try a Xonar & Im stuck with an STX which seems to be a bit grumpy when it comes gaming.


----------



## btarunr (Mar 13, 2010)

No more "Creative" witch-hunting, please.


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## Robert-The-Rambler (Mar 13, 2010)

*I have both XFi and 2 Asus Xonar DS*

I love both for different reasons and have found that all my sound issues have been either simply compatibility issues or even crackling and slow down caused by my USB network adapter. I have the XFi Xtremegamer, Xtreme Music, Titanium and Platinum, and they are incredible and work flawlessly except for the fact that Alchemy needs work. Especially in Windows 7, Alchemy simply doesn't find the games and with Steam in general it is not user friendly to enable EAX in your games. I don't know about anybody else but I really like the Crystalizer function and as long as you don't overuse any other equalization it really makes certain speaker setups kick big time. Sometimes it needs tweaking but it is fully adjustable so you really can't complain.

I just recently bought 2 Asus Xonar DS sound cards and they are fabulous because they do offer a few things that Creative Labs doesn't. The buggy yet promising automatic EAX enabling GX 2.5for Vista and 7 is one. When it works it does well providing the proper reverb. When it doesn't such as in FEAR Perseus Mandate some sounds are missing so you can simply disable EAX to get all the sound effects back minus the reverb.  DTS NEO PC is superior than Creative's CMSS for music and movies because it does a better job emphasizing the center channel vocals. The AV200/C-Media Oxygen HD driven Asus Xonar DS cards also support 7.1 24 bit 192khz audio which for me is very interesting. Maybe I would need dog ears to hear the difference though.

So it is great to have options in the marketplace especially on the cheap. I also like the (gasp) XFi Xtreme Audio and XFi Surround 5.1. I don't do the onboard thing.

In relation to the current new offerings from Creative Labs. I don't know why they wouldn't have native HDMI. It does seem to be the next logical step in audio advancement and convenience. I dropped the THX excitement years ago. I use amps designed for professional use in my home theater setups when appicable and they simply never clip or distort. Your head would explode before the amps so THX certification is not necessary for that application or any other. And the amps I use don't have much over a 100db noise floor so super uber high 120db range signal to noise ratio goes to waste. Remember your sound environment is only as good as the weakest link and the sum of the parts equals the whole.


----------



## EarlZ (Mar 13, 2010)

None of the soundcards that people compare with are even close to perfect, why bother bitching and moan about it ?


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Mar 13, 2010)

EarlZ said:


> None of the soundcards that people compare with are even close to perfect, why bother bitching and moan about it ?



correct none of the cards are perfect but each of the cards dominates & totally rules what field they specialize in

Xonar - For Music & Movies - Sound amazing even on the lower end cards such as a DX

XFi - For Gaming (no card can beat an XFi when it comes to gaming. but like everyone says. EAX is dead/dying so theres no telling how long they will hold that crown for)

so its upto you how you want to see it.

IMHO if Asus started putting more effort into their soundcard department - their cards would totally run rings around XFi's - but such as it is none of their staff visit the forums, so trying to give some consumer related feedback to them is going to be difficult unless you go through support channels which i had heard a some good things & also bad things about.

If Asus really put some effort in - they could totally wipe the XFi in games.


----------



## imperialreign (Mar 13, 2010)

pjladyfox said:


> This coming from the person who has the little Creative sticker in the bottom of every post. Note here that you're the one that came out swinging on this one not me claiming that I said something I did not and then went on your little "Creative can do no wrong" tirade accusing those of us who have had nothing but issues as crackpots or liars.
> 
> The sad part about this entire exchange between the two of us is if you had condenced the last two paragraphs of this post into your inital reply, instead of resorting to "Creative can do no wrong" speech, things never really would have gotten this far. Heck, I would have THANKED YOU for the information and we could have moved onwards.



If my posts came across the wrong way, then I apologize - I tend to have a very "straight forward" approach with my posts . . .

It's not that I don't believe people have occasional problems, I know for a fact they will . . . no matter what audio card they decide to purchase.  The equipment itself is very picky and sensitive; TBH, it's easier today to deal with issues, than it was 10-15 years ago.

What tends to grate me, though, is simply when people start accusing a hardware manufacturer for their problems, and many times their accusations come with little knowledge of what's going on.  It's hatred and bashing being fueled by ignorance.  Sad as it is, audio hardware is probably one of the least understood pieces of hardware in one's system . . . but, considering how few people grasp audio hardware, there's even more that simply believe it should just work when installed - and they run across other's "bashing" posts, and pick up the same setiments . . . even if they've never used that brand of hardware . . .

Big reason, IMHO, why there are so many Creative "bashing" threads out there.  It doesn't typically get bad here at TPU, but, every news thread (like this one) is like a magnet for those types of comments . . .

I try not to come across like I'm "attacking" or singling anyone out, but that can be hard to do sometimes, especially considering my general posting style . . . again, I didn't intend to come across the wrong way, my apologies.





> Again, I never said that other companies were innocent of the problem which is why I'm not using a C-Media sound card in my gaming system. I got fed up with the money grubbing over an issue that should have been fixed after it was first found under Vista. Onboard audio, while not ideal, at least works every single time I use it without a hiccup or complaint.
> 
> That would most likely explain why the onboard Realtek audio, while not the best, tends to work more often than the $200+ dollar sound card I've got sitting in a box that I'm trying to get rid of since I'm tired of dealing with it.



Well, other hardware manufacturers have let things continue on as well, although Creative tend to do it a bit more (considering their larger line of hardware offering) . . . it's sad, and a PITA for the un-informed consuer, but not much we can do about it (aside from staying informed).

The reason the onboard always works perfectly without hiccups has to do with how it's intergrated - both at the hardware level, and the drivers with the OS.  Because of it's intergaration with the motherboard, the OS can simply access it, the chipset drivers come a lot into play as well.  The whole means of hardware access becomes even more muddied once Vista and OS7 come into play . . . but, the kernel design is a big reason why onboard solutions haven't had the same issues as dedicated cards with Vista and OS7, i.e. the lack of multi-channel output, intermittent switching from multi-channel to 2-channel, poor down and upmixing, etc.

It's frustrating for us that are heavy into audio, because we know it's not an issue with the audio hardware itself, but the majority of the time steming from the limitations of the OS.  The average user, though, doesn't know this, nor realize it.





> For my part, if I came off in a way that you took offense to that was not my intention and was rather me just venting over what appeared to be yet another money grab IMHO by Creative. However, that said, you really need to dial back on your rhetoric where you give the impression that everyone should bow at the altar of Creative and that they can do no wrong since that is VERY far from the truth and you admitted as such yourself.
> 
> At this point, I think I've pretty much said my peace about all of this. This is going to be one of those situations where I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.
> 
> Peace?




By all means - I've never been one to hold a grudge against others, most of the regulars can easily tell you that.  Although I do like a good debate, I try to keep things as level headed as possible (hard to do sometimes ).

Again, I apologize if I can across a bit too aggressive - it's not that I'm _that_ pro-Creative, I have no problems recommending competing hardware to other users when it would better suit their needs . . . hell, I fully recognize Creative's support can be a bit lacking at times - that's the whole reason why I had started the X-Fi Support thread here . . . they have their pros and cons; it's simply that too many users are mis-informed or don't have enough knowledge to draw proper conclusions, and there's already too much skewed info being spread (quite a lot in this thread alone), which only further adds to the confusion.

Hopefully, some of the info I've passed along, though, has not fallen on deaf ears - it'd be nice to think that perhaps other users have found some of the info helpful or informative.

Either way, best of luck with whatever audio solution you do decide to go with in the future, and as always, I'm willing to answer any audio related questions, no matter what hardware you use.


----------



## simlariver (Mar 14, 2010)

Creative sound card used to be great when hardware acceleration was the way to go and EAX was the only surround sound processing technology worth looking at. Heck, it was designed _specifically _for gaming.

But now, Creative is just the shadow of a formerly glorious company that capitalize on previously relevant technology and reputation, even tho they are no longer offering anything else that bloated pub-infested drivers and gimmic made-up technologies. (THX TruStudio PC Crystalizer ?????  it's what, 6-8 years old technology re-branded _again _? They really used to ship great hardware, but now, they looks like they reduced the engineering department by 5 times and boosted the PR department 10 fold.

I know some people have problems with competing technologies (asus and other c-media based cards) but I can't help but point that most of those people might just have a code-18 problem*.

Seriously, don't buy that creative crap. I am kinda a xonar fanboy and a creative hater, but that doesn't mean I am wrong and my point is not valid,  does it ?

* The problem is located 18 inches in front of the screen.


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## Wile E (Mar 14, 2010)

simlariver said:


> Creative sound card used to be great when hardware acceleration was the way to go and EAX was the only surround sound processing technology worth looking at. Heck, it was designed _specifically _for gaming.
> 
> But now, Creative is just the shadow of a formerly glorious company that capitalize on previously relevant technology and reputation, even tho they are no longer offering anything else that bloated pub-infested drivers and gimmic made-up technologies. (THX TruStudio PC Crystalizer ?????  it's what, 6-8 years old technology re-branded _again _? They really used to ship great hardware, but now, they looks like they reduced the engineering department by 5 times and boosted the PR department 10 fold.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it kinda does, actually.


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## EarlZ (Mar 14, 2010)

FreedomEclipse said:


> correct none of the cards are perfect but each of the cards dominates & totally rules what field they specialize in
> 
> Xonar - For Music & Movies - Sound amazing even on the lower end cards such as a DX
> 
> ...



I would be very much interested in seeing Asus beat Creative in their own game even to the point that creative might shutdown its sound card department.. Im not really an Asus fan but a competition on the market would be nice!


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 14, 2010)

EarlZ said:


> I would be very much interested in seeing Asus beat Creative in their own game even to the point that creative might shutdown its sound card department.. Im not really an Asus fan but a competition on the market would be nice!



I dont think Creative would be pushed that far back to shutdown their department. theyve been in the game far far far too long to even think about doing that. & like you said competition is good right? & Creative is the big dog of PC Audio & Asus has emerged as a direct competitor as they are bigger then most other manufacturers who do PC Audio. theres quite a few smaller companies that dabble in the field but their main focus is on other parts of the market.


.:EDIT:.

Just wait until EAX is dropped by studios in favour of OpenAL - then the real games will start because Creative will have to come up with a new gameplan because EAX is no longer a selling point for their cards.


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## Robert-The-Rambler (Mar 14, 2010)

*C'mon Now*



FreedomEclipse said:


> I dont think Creative would be pushed that far back to shutdown their department. theyve been in the game far far far too long to even think about doing that. & like you said competition is good right? & Creative is the big dog of PC Audio & Asus has emerged as a direct competitor as they are bigger then most other manufacturers who do PC Audio. theres quite a few smaller companies that dabble in the field but their main focus is on other parts of the market.
> 
> 
> .:EDIT:.
> ...



Creative Labs is the company who has pushed the OpenAL initiative for Vista and 7 since they need it to make their hardware work the best. They want OpenAL and they have embraced it. OpenAL helps EAX actually work.


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## ToTTenTranz (Mar 14, 2010)

Robert-The-Rambler said:


> Creative Labs is the company who has pushed the OpenAL initiative for Vista and 7 since they need it to make their hardware work the best. They want OpenAL and they have embraced it. OpenAL helps EAX actually work.






What he said.

Creative would actually rejoice at the sight of every game using OpenAL for sound libraries instead of DirectX. OpenAL supports audio acceleration hardware, DirectX doesn't.


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## RejZoR (Mar 14, 2010)

FreedomEclipse said:


> correct none of the cards are perfect but each of the cards dominates & totally rules what field they specialize in
> 
> Xonar - For Music & Movies - Sound amazing even on the lower end cards such as a DX
> 
> ...



Why do ppl think everything revolves around EAX ? CMSS works in every game, even those that use proprietary audio engines and haven't even heard of EAX. It bumps up the way how 360° degree spin renders the audio that is static. Or when you're stationary and sound revolves around you. With CMSS, 3D sound positioning is just staggering. And then there are MacroFX and Elevation filter, enhancing the way you hear close sounds and the way they sound when they are above/below you or when they are behind you. This also works in every game. Cars passing you by never sound this incredible, rockets flying near your head. And Elevation filter gives you ability to better define whether your enemy is below or above you. This gives you perfectly legal improvement in gaming if you can properly define where your enemies are without need to use wallhacks and other similar stuff. I remember the days when i was playing in a clan and was constantly accused of using wallhacks. Where in reality, i was just paying lots of attention to sounds and could prepare myself even before they run around the corner. Because i could hear their footsteps a kilometer away...

EAX just adds value to all this. If you hear some sounds coming from a sewer and you know there is one up ahead, you'll be able to prepare sooner for enemies. Same goes if sound is restricted by walls, you can again notice the difference in reverberation and read where the sound is happening inside the game environment. Sound is a thing that everyone take for granted but not many actually take time to immerse themself on this level of gaming. Ok, so they hear gun fire, but they don't seem to care where it is coming from and how exactly it sounds (and what that means for you).


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Mar 14, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> Why do ppl think everything revolves around EAX ? CMSS works in every game, even those that use proprietary audio engines and haven't even heard of EAX. It bumps up the way how 360° degree spin renders the audio that is static. Or when you're stationary and sound revolves around you. With CMSS, 3D sound positioning is just staggering. And then there are MacroFX and Elevation filter, enhancing the way you hear close sounds and the way they sound when they are above/below you or when they are behind you. This also works in every game. Cars passing you by never sound this incredible, rockets flying near your head. And Elevation filter gives you ability to better define whether your enemy is below or above you. This gives you perfectly legal improvement in gaming if you can properly define where your enemies are without need to use wallhacks and other similar stuff. I remember the days when i was playing in a clan and was constantly accused of using wallhacks. Where in reality, i was just paying lots of attention to sounds and could prepare myself even before they run around the corner. Because i could hear their footsteps a kilometer away...
> 
> EAX just adds value to all this. If you hear some sounds coming from a sewer and you know there is one up ahead, you'll be able to prepare sooner for enemies. Same goes if sound is restricted by walls, you can again notice the difference in reverberation and read where the sound is happening inside the game environment. Sound is a thing that everyone take for granted but not many actually take time to immerse themself on this level of gaming. Ok, so they hear gun fire, but they don't seem to care where it is coming from and how exactly it sounds (and what that means for you).



I didnt understand a word of this, I cant tell if your taking a poke at me or praising me. asking why people think EAX revolves around gaming then talking about EAX like its some sorta addiction????


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## RejZoR (Mar 14, 2010)

Addiction? How would it feel if your real living room would sound like a sewer and a stadium like a living room? That's what EAX is to games. It makes the world you're in believable and well, correct. But as i said, most of ppl take sound in games for granted and later on spit over EAX like it's some gimmick. Maybe it was back in the early days when it was just a basic reverberation engine (but was also the first of it's kind and that made it interesting), but EAX is not just that for quite some time. You have to play few proper EAX 4.0 HD games or EAX 5.0 to really appreciate what EAX has to offer. And you have to listen for real, not just listen like most ppl do.
You'll see how detailed and rich sound really is and how much you're actually missing by not using EAX.

And it's funny when you're talking of dropping EAX in favor of OpenAL. Creative Labs developed OpenAL as open audio standard. EAX 4.0 HD and above runs on OpenAL only and OpenAL isn't an audio library by itself, EAX however is, with reverberation, sound reflection, distortions and so on. So if you want a game to support EAX 4.0 or later, it has to work on OpenAL. You don't seem to fully understand the whole audio thing...
Besides as someone above said, OpenAL is like Direct3D or OpenGL to graphic cards. An accelerated audio subsystem, far superior to DirectSound or any other subsystem. Only issue is that EAX above version 2.0 is exclusive to Creative Labs cards (or 3rd party powered by X-Fi chips).


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## eidairaman1 (Mar 14, 2010)

explain why Vista and 7 Require alchemy then


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## FreedomEclipse (Mar 14, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> Addiction? How would it feel if your real living room would sound like a sewer and a stadium like a living room?



Id love it - I have owned 3 Creative cards since & they have been great until they either died of got sold off



RejZoR said:


> You have to play few proper EAX 4.0 HD games or EAX 5.0 to really appreciate what EAX has to offer. And you have to listen for real, not just listen like most ppl do.
> You'll see how detailed and rich sound really is and how much you're actually missing by not using EAX.



have you tried using a Xonar for gaming?? they sound more amazing then creatives when the DS3DGX engine decides to work. also the parts such as the opamps & other stuff are generally alot better then that of creatives. a Xonar paired with a set of Logitech Z5500 = Win




RejZoR said:


> And it's funny when you're talking of dropping EAX in favor of OpenAL. Creative Labs developed OpenAL as open audio standard. EAX 4.0 HD and above runs on OpenAL only and OpenAL isn't an audio library by itself, EAX however is, with reverberation, sound reflection, distortions and so on. So if you want a game to support EAX 4.0 or later, it has to work on OpenAL. You don't seem to fully understand the whole audio thing...



your right - I dont understand it much other then waning support for EAX. So I admit & apologise for my mistakes of not researching first before commenting.




RejZoR said:


> Only issue is that EAX above version 2.0 is exclusive to Creative Labs cards (or 3rd party powered by X-Fi chips).



& thats why EAX is being dropped - studios dont want to pay licensing fees & royalties etc etc etc to Creative.

------

Just because i dont run a Creative card doesnt mean i cant be immirsed in sound when it comes to gaming. Xonars Support EAX 2.0 but emulate high versions of EAX albeit with some teething issues but I assure you it still sounds awesome when it decides to work.

Have you tried a Xonar?? If not I really recommend that you give the DX, D2X a go. they are also great for movies & music.


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## Wile E (Mar 14, 2010)

eidairaman1 said:


> explain why Vista and 7 Require alchemy then



Because it's for converting the old DirectX EAX calls to OpenAL, so we get hardware acceleration. DirectX doesn't allow direct access to the audio DSP in Vista and 7 anymore, thus the reason OpenAL and ALchemy came to be.



FreedomEclipse said:


> Id love it - I have owned 3 Creative cards since & they have been great until they either died of got sold off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Check out some of the Guru3d reviews of sound cards, the X-Fi based cards use far less cpu to do the same amount of work.


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## R_1 (Mar 14, 2010)

pr0n Inspector said:


> ATI "soundcards" are purely digital.


 So, buy an audio receiver. It will sound a lot better than SB.


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## ToTTenTranz (Mar 15, 2010)

R_1 said:


> So, buy an audio receiver. It will sound a lot better than SB.



lol, of course. Everyone should just get a 7.1 HDMI receiver and a set of analog speakers just to have sound in their PCs.


Ridiculous.


----------



## pjladyfox (Mar 15, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> If my posts came across the wrong way, then I apologize - I tend to have a very "straight forward" approach with my posts . . .
> 
> It's not that I don't believe people have occasional problems, I know for a fact they will . . . no matter what audio card they decide to purchase.  The equipment itself is very picky and sensitive; TBH, it's easier today to deal with issues, than it was 10-15 years ago.
> 
> ...



I can fully understand your frustration and respect it since I'm pretty much the same way. It's one of the reasons why I tend not to get into most conversations unless I've had some personal experience with the subject matter.

In this case, you are probably one of the few that I've ever dealt with on this subject that seems to have more knowledge than most which is why I had my initial suspicions that you were part of Creative either from a support or other aspect. And I'm sure it's that impression, along with your approach, which triggered my "too close for missiles, switching to guns" reaction.

You are right in that sound cards today are MUCH easier to deal with than the first Ad Lib or Sound Blaster was. However, at least with the earlier cards once you got them fixed they tended to stay that way and you had a lot more control over the environment that they were functioning in. Today, it's almost like going back to the early days of sound where nothing really works quite right and hours are lost trying to fix a mirad of problems that never existed before. 



imperialreign said:


> Well, other hardware manufacturers have let things continue on as well, although Creative tend to do it a bit more (considering their larger line of hardware offering) . . . it's sad, and a PITA for the un-informed consuer, but not much we can do about it (aside from staying informed).
> 
> The reason the onboard always works perfectly without hiccups has to do with how it's integrated - both at the hardware level, and the drivers with the OS.  Because of it's integration with the motherboard, the OS can simply access it, the chipset drivers come a lot into play as well.  The whole means of hardware access becomes even more muddied once Vista and OS7 come into play . . . but, the kernel design is a big reason why onboard solutions haven't had the same issues as dedicated cards with Vista and OS7, i.e. the lack of multi-channel output, intermittent switching from multi-channel to 2-channel, poor down and upmixing, etc.
> 
> It's frustrating for us that are heavy into audio, because we know it's not an issue with the audio hardware itself, but the majority of the time stemming from the limitations of the OS.  The average user, though, doesn't know this, nor realize it.



Tue on all counts and, in this particular case, there is a lot of shared blame to go around on this. Back when Microsoft first announced Vista they made it pretty clear that DirectSound was going to go away as part of their goal to remove driver instability as an issue. The fact that Creative, C-Media, and Realtek all just kind of seemingly stuck their collective heads in the sand until it was too late made a bad situation even worse.

So, here we are, four years after the disappearance of DirectSound and we STILL do not have a decent sound card that supports OpenAL via hardware beyond the cobbled X-Fi series. Much less one that removes the other miriad of issues tied to older DirectSound games not working correctly. 



imperialreign said:


> By all means - I've never been one to hold a grudge against others, most of the regulars can easily tell you that.  Although I do like a good debate, I try to keep things as level headed as possible (hard to do sometimes ).
> 
> Again, I apologize if I can across a bit too aggressive - it's not that I'm _that_ pro-Creative, I have no problems recommending competing hardware to other users when it would better suit their needs . . . hell, I fully recognize Creative's support can be a bit lacking at times - that's the whole reason why I had started the X-Fi Support thread here . . . they have their pros and cons; it's simply that too many users are mis-informed or don't have enough knowledge to draw proper conclusions, and there's already too much skewed info being spread (quite a lot in this thread alone), which only further adds to the confusion.
> 
> ...



Oh, rest assured the last couple of posts that you have made on this topic have been VERY enlightening to me in regards to this topic. The only fustration I have right now is that now that I know more about how and what is involved in a lot of the issues I was dealing with on the X-Fi appear to be no closer to being solved than they were 3 years ago. If one company could design a soundcard that fully supported OpenAL in hardware, was able to emulate DirectSound either via software or other means, and did not hit the PCI-bus so hard to the point of saturating the bus (mainly for those older systems that do not have PCI-Express) I'd be the first one in line to plop down $200+ for it. 

Until then, I'm going to have to give the Xonar DX or older C-Media 8770 sound cards like the HT Omega a closer look since I'm really getting tired of the humming I hear in my headphones from EM noise.


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Mar 15, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Because it's for converting the old DirectX EAX calls to OpenAL, so we get hardware acceleration. DirectX doesn't allow direct access to the audio DSP in Vista and 7 anymore, thus the reason OpenAL and ALchemy came to be.
> 
> Check out some of the Guru3d reviews of sound cards, the X-Fi based cards use far less cpu to do the same amount of work.



I noes thats why I said the XFi was better for gaming earlier on in this post but if you got a top of the range CPU it shouldnt be a problem


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## imperialreign (Mar 15, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Because it's for converting the old DirectX EAX calls to OpenAL, so we get hardware acceleration.



And the sad part is - the vast majority of the EAX calls through ver 5.0HD are present in the OpenAL API . . . for free.  Even oddball things such as X-RAM access and usage . . .

Now if game devs would just get off their lazy tails and quite worrying about "polishing" those visuals, and institute some better audio . . .



> Check out some of the Guru3d reviews of sound cards, the X-Fi based cards use far less cpu to do the same amount of work.



Agreed, and the general user can also "bench" their own hardware with RMAA.  The native PCI-E Titanium series (and a couple of newer Auzen X-Fi cards) are extremelly impressive.






pjladyfox said:


> I can fully understand your frustration and respect it since I'm pretty much the same way. It's one of the reasons why I tend not to get into most conversations unless I've had some personal experience with the subject matter.
> 
> In this case, you are probably one of the few that I've ever dealt with on this subject that seems to have more knowledge than most which is why I had my initial suspicions that you were part of Creative either from a support or other aspect. And I'm sure it's that impression, along with your approach, which triggered my "too close for missiles, switching to guns" reaction.



s'all good 



> You are right in that sound cards today are MUCH easier to deal with than the first Ad Lib or Sound Blaster was. However, at least with the earlier cards once you got them fixed they tended to stay that way and you had a lot more control over the environment that they were functioning in. Today, it's almost like going back to the early days of sound where nothing really works quite right and hours are lost trying to fix a mirad of problems that never existed before.



Agreed.

One of the most frustrating issues today is the lack of BIOS options on OEM systems . . . and it's typically the OEM systems that seem to have the most problems, regardless of manufacturer.

Even still, the more accessible BIOS options available to those who do custom builds are by-far better . . . but the one key BIOS "tune" for PCI audio hardware is disappearing more and more often - the ability to adjust PCI latency.

There are some other BIOS tweaks that help, but PCI latency tends to always have the most impact . . . as long as the card in question _is_ a PCI card.



> Tue on all counts and, in this particular case, there is a lot of shared blame to go around on this. Back when Microsoft first announced Vista they made it pretty clear that DirectSound was going to go away as part of their goal to remove driver instability as an issue. The fact that Creative, C-Media, and Realtek all just kind of seemingly stuck their collective heads in the sand until it was too late made a bad situation even worse.
> 
> So, here we are, four years after the disappearance of DirectSound and we STILL do not have a decent sound card that supports OpenAL via hardware beyond the cobbled X-Fi series. Much less one that removes the other miriad of issues tied to older DirectSound games not working correctly.



Actually, when MS was first beginning work on Vista, they did plan to have DirectSound.  They were actually working closely with both Creative and nVidia to incorporate an improved version for hardware access and other low-level chores.  For whatever reason, late into the game, nVidia backed out, and soon after MS dropped the project altogether - I've yet to hear what happened, and who was at fault for this EPIC FAIL - and MS went ahead without DirectSound.  They used the lame BS excuse that they were cutting the feature because the majority of system crashes in XP were due to software trying to access the audio kernel (reason I say BS is because I've never seen an audio-related BSoD in XP, and have never seen anyone else complain of a BSoD that turned out to be audio related).  Either way, it left Creative with about 6 months to completely re-write their early Vista drivers, for an OS design they were not originally designing for.  Big reason why their Vista beta drivers didn't release until about 1 month before Vista's release.

And I defi agree on the OAL point - Only Creative and Auzen properly support the API.  ASUS, HT, C-Media and every other audio manufacturer need to get off their arse and start getting involved with the project.  The only thing ASUS has been doing with OAL is using it to gain "backdoor" access for EAX3+ support (their "EAX" software operates nearly the same as Creative's ALchemy).



> Oh, rest assured the last couple of posts that you have made on this topic have been VERY enlightening to me in regards to this topic. The only fustration I have right now is that now that I know more about how and what is involved in a lot of the issues I was dealing with on the X-Fi appear to be no closer to being solved than they were 3 years ago. If one company could design a soundcard that fully supported OpenAL in hardware, was able to emulate DirectSound either via software or other means, and did not hit the PCI-bus so hard to the point of saturating the bus (mainly for those older systems that do not have PCI-Express) I'd be the first one in line to plop down $200+ for it.
> 
> Until then, I'm going to have to give the Xonar DX or older C-Media 8770 sound cards like the HT Omega a closer look since I'm really getting tired of the humming I hear in my headphones from EM noise.



Yeah, and even for those cards that do support OAL perfectly fine - there's also issues on the software side . . . some media programs are still having issues in Vista . . . and we need to see more software dev support with OAL as well.

TBH, I'm glad the audio industry is moving to PCI-E, as that has really cleared up a lot of audio clipping problems related to the PCI BUS, and the fact that most modern hardware is extremelly heavy on the SYS BUS.  The increased bandwidth with PCI-E allows the card to send and recieve more info per clock cycle, and that's a major bonus with some processing heavy audio cards.

But, we need to see more audio manufacturers start going to native PCIE, instead of relying on the translators.  As I believe I mentioned in an earlier post, it adds latency to the audio processing stream, and that's not exactly something you want in regards to audio.  TBH, I've kinda felt it's a bit of a joke from all the audio manufacturers . . . everyone has gotten wrapped up with the SNR war, and keep stouting they have the best audio quality - but are using poor design architecture (even Creative were guilty of this with their first PCIE card).


BTW - if you're experiencing a lot of EMI noise, you could attempt some DIY fixes.  It's a hard noise to get rid of, but there are some things that might clean it up - if the noise is being induced from the local environment . . . if the card is picking up noise via the SYS BUS, there's not too much you can do


----------



## RejZoR (Mar 15, 2010)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Id love it - I have owned 3 Creative cards since & they have been great until they either died of got sold off
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have the ASUS Xonar Essence STX paired with Altec Lansing MX5021... so, yes i know how they sound when they work right and i also know it can be total pain in the rear. Lots of times sounds get stuck and they don't stop looping until you leave the area and come back again. Latest games that i played and this happened were Heavy Metal FAKK2, Painkiller and Red Ocean.
Lots of times also happens that 3D positioning is a total mess and you can't tell it where enemies really are. For this part, ALchemy worked better in older games even though you had to copy 2 files by hand. But it worked and you could even tweak it a bit. It was a perfection that worked properly in each and every game. Unlike GX2 which most often crashes the game after long periods of gaming for no apparent reason.

As for the EAX being dropped, it's not all about royalties and lots of newer games have it.
It's just that not many cheaper sound card makers decide to have Creative tech since they make their own stuff (like Realtek). But there are also vendors like Auzentech who aren't Creative, yet they offer same functionality as Creative soundcards. Lots of games also use proprietary reverberation engines that run in software (and are not nearly as sophisticated as EAX 4.0 or better). But that's how it is.


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## R_1 (Mar 15, 2010)

ToTTenTranz said:


> lol, of course. Everyone should just get a 7.1 HDMI receiver and a set of analog speakers just to have sound in their PCs.
> 
> 
> Ridiculous.


Well, not everyone should get HDMI receiver, but only those who are wiling to spend +300$ on audio part of their PCs. Will ask you a question : what kind of DSP can we find in ASUS Xonar Essence STX? Is it a very inexpensive C-Media chip? May tell you that similar C-Media revisions can be found on 12 year old audio card for 10$ (new) or integrated in some ancient PIII motherboards. All the sound magic is happening in ASUS Xonar-s analog part. This is the place where HDMI receiver excels.


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## RejZoR (Mar 15, 2010)

Xonar Essence STX is using ASUS AV100 audio chip which is essentially a C-Media Oxygen HD CMI8788.


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## TAViX (Mar 15, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> You can laugh all you want but it DOES make quite some difference. And you have to decide what's your top priority. For gaming, X-Fi is still hard to beat. All the small gizmos and gadgeds that make 3D sound positioning a true masterpiece experience. But it sounds kinda flat for music. On the other hand, ASUS Xonar STX offers superior music quality, but has quite some problems with games. Sure, when it works, it's great. But when it doesn't, it's just bad.
> I've had Xtreme Music and i was quite satisfied with it. No driver issues (i used only Console Launcher and drivers, no other crap) and it worked perfectly on all systems. So, if i decide for X-Fi HD gaming experience for some reason, i'd pick it up without much thinking. But since i don't play that much games anymore i'll stick with STX.



Agree. Don't forget tho, that without a good speaker system, you will probably feel no difference between the onboard sound and an X-FI. And when I mean a good 5.1 system I don't mean the relative cheap ones for PC...



ToTTenTranz said:


> What he said.
> 
> Creative would actually rejoice at the sight of every game using OpenAL for sound libraries instead of DirectX. OpenAL supports audio acceleration hardware, DirectX doesn't.



OpenAL seems to be the go now, and it's actually much better. No more Alchemy crap. just run the game and that's it.

btw, did anyone notice how rich and different is the sound in DiRT with hardware acc.??? You actually feel like you're driving. Best OpenAL game release in years.


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## ToTTenTranz (Mar 15, 2010)

R_1 said:


> Well, not everyone should get HDMI receiver, but only those who are wiling to spend +300$ on audio part of their PCs. Will ask you a question : what kind of DSP can we find in ASUS Xonar Essence STX? Is it a very inexpensive C-Media chip? May tell you that similar C-Media revisions can be found on 12 year old audio card for 10$ (new) or integrated in some ancient PIII motherboards. All the sound magic is happening in ASUS Xonar-s analog part. This is the place where HDMI receiver excels.




Dude... you're saying complete nonsense. The "sound magic is happening in Asus Xonar's analog part"? And then you say "this is the place where HDMI receiver excels"?

HDMI -> digital, not analog.

Besides, high-end soundcards (X-Fi Prelude and others) have very high-quality DACs, even comparing to mid-range (~400€)  receivers.
What they don't have is a matching amplification circuit, of course. Sound cards are made to connect to powered speakers or ear/headphones.


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## R_1 (Mar 15, 2010)

HDMI is just a port, that I am using when playing movies/games on HDTV, so forgive my ignorance when referring to AV receiver as a "HDMI" receiver.


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## pr0n Inspector (Mar 15, 2010)

Cheap $500 receivers can't even drive headphones properly.

Also, not everyone likes $1000 mediocre speakers.


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## pjladyfox (Mar 15, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> Actually, when MS was first beginning work on Vista, they did plan to have DirectSound.  They were actually working closely with both Creative and nVidia to incorporate an improved version for hardware access and other low-level chores.  For whatever reason, late into the game, nVidia backed out, and soon after MS dropped the project altogether - I've yet to hear what happened, and who was at fault for this EPIC FAIL - and MS went ahead without DirectSound.  They used the lame BS excuse that they were cutting the feature because the majority of system crashes in XP were due to software trying to access the audio kernel (reason I say BS is because I've never seen an audio-related BSoD in XP, and have never seen anyone else complain of a BSoD that turned out to be audio related).  Either way, it left Creative with about 6 months to completely re-write their early Vista drivers, for an OS design they were not originally designing for.  Big reason why their Vista beta drivers didn't release until about 1 month before Vista's release.
> 
> And I defi agree on the OAL point - Only Creative and Auzen properly support the API.  ASUS, HT, C-Media and every other audio manufacturer need to get off their arse and start getting involved with the project.  The only thing ASUS has been doing with OAL is using it to gain "backdoor" access for EAX3+ support (their "EAX" software operates nearly the same as Creative's ALchemy).



That's interesting. I had heard about Creative being involved with it but I'm really surprised at NVIDIA's participation especially since they dropped support for their SoundStorm line. The only reason I can think of that Microsoft switched gears like that is that they had no real confidence in Creative being able to carry the rest of the project to a degree to make going any further worth the effort. Not saying that I excuse the major FUBAR that Microsoft did but Creative really has not built up a lot of confidence especially considering their rather rabid defense of EAX.

I did some current reading on OpenAL and it looks like Creative is pretty much carrying things at the moment. This could explain why there really has not been any major adoption of it by say Realtek or C-Media since they've already been burned by Creative over the entire EAX fiasco. I mean, were I in the same shoes I'd be rather hesitant in order to work with them especially since Creative could turn around and incorporate any information into their own hardware regardless if it is an "open" standard. 

Again, not an excuse for the involved parties but it could explain a great many things. Does not make it any easier for those of us on the front lines dealing with all of the fallout over the complete and utter lack of progress in audio. 



imperialreign said:


> Yeah, and even for those cards that do support OAL perfectly fine - there's also issues on the software side . . . some media programs are still having issues in Vista . . . and we need to see more software dev support with OAL as well.
> 
> TBH, I'm glad the audio industry is moving to PCI-E, as that has really cleared up a lot of audio clipping problems related to the PCI BUS, and the fact that most modern hardware is extremelly heavy on the SYS BUS.  The increased bandwidth with PCI-E allows the card to send and recieve more info per clock cycle, and that's a major bonus with some processing heavy audio cards.
> 
> But, we need to see more audio manufacturers start going to native PCIE, instead of relying on the translators.  As I believe I mentioned in an earlier post, it adds latency to the audio processing stream, and that's not exactly something you want in regards to audio.  TBH, I've kinda felt it's a bit of a joke from all the audio manufacturers . . . everyone has gotten wrapped up with the SNR war, and keep stouting they have the best audio quality - but are using poor design architecture (even Creative were guilty of this with their first PCIE card).



Oh, do not get me wrong I know that the movement towards PCI-E is a good thing but I also have to be a realist here that a great many STILL use PCI-based audio cards. By designing fixes for resolving a lot of the PCI latency issues it carries forward to the PCI-E line. This, in turn, would allow for a larger potential customer base for sale AND would encourage game developers to hop onboard with OpenAL completely rather than the hackneyed software audio that they are currently using. I think a lot of momentum could also be garnered if the consoles went over to OpenAL as well.

Either way, the feature war needs to stop and we desperately need someone outside of Creative to take the lead towards driving OpenAL adoption across ALL hardware platforms. At the rate we're going now I'll be retiring before we'll actually see this happen. 



imperialreign said:


> BTW - if you're experiencing a lot of EMI noise, you could attempt some DIY fixes.  It's a hard noise to get rid of, but there are some things that might clean it up - if the noise is being induced from the local environment . . . if the card is picking up noise via the SYS BUS, there's not too much you can do



I'm really holding off on doing anything major until I can get a new set of headphones to replace my ancient Razer HP-1's since I think they may be part of the problem. The fustrating thing is that finding a decent set of 5.1 dedicated audio headphones is not easy nor cheap. And whomever thought the entire USB 5.1 audio was a good idea needs to be repeatedly nut stomped until they can no longer produce children.


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## btarunr (Mar 15, 2010)

Not many takers for OpenAL in a post Windows Vista world because...nobody other than Creative makes real audio processors. Only HSP controllers. OpenAL gives the application a direct path to hardware, but when that hardware doesn't know what to do with raw audio stack the app, hence the OS has to process it using the CPU. With real hardware processors (which Creative makes), it gets processed on the card.


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## Wile E (Mar 15, 2010)

pjladyfox said:


> [snip] since I'm really getting tired of the humming I hear in my headphones from EM noise.


You could always just attempt to build a simple emi sheild for your current card. Shouldn't be too hard to manage, and would be a hell of a lot cheaper to do than buy a new card.


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## RejZoR (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, i know ADI (Analog Devices) supports native OpenAL. Not sure about Realtek...


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## Wile E (Mar 15, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> Well, i know ADI (Analog Devices) supports native OpenAL. Not sure about Realtek...



It supports it in software. The cpu still does all the work. Creative is the only manufacturer that makes true hardware accelerated DSPs.


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## imperialreign (Mar 15, 2010)

Wile E said:


> It supports it in software. The cpu still does all the work. Creative is the only manufacturer that makes true hardware accelerated DSPs.





It's an APU, dag-nabbit!


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## TAViX (Mar 16, 2010)

Wile E said:


> You could always just attempt to build a simple emi sheild for your current card. Shouldn't be too hard to manage, and would be a hell of a lot cheaper to do than buy a new card.



Interesting. How do you do that??


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## imperialreign (Mar 16, 2010)

TAViX said:


> Interesting. How do you do that??



There's a few different methods - probably the most basic would be to use some aluminum foil and fold it over on itself 3-4 times, making sure it's about the same L and W of the card, and a little bit longer at the PCI bracket so you can attach it there.  You'll need to find some way to support the "shield" from the other components on the card . . . thermal pads, double layered duct tape, folded up electrical tape, rubber washers tapped onto the shield, etc.

It's looks a little barbaric, but it works.


Another idea would be to use the outer casing from an old HDD.  Makes for an excellent shield.  Little bit harder to attach to the card, though, and you might have to use a small piece of wire to connect the shield to the PCI bracket.


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## Wile E (Mar 17, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> It's an APU, dag-nabbit!



And an APU is a DSP.


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## TAViX (Mar 18, 2010)

imperialreign said:


> There's a few different methods - probably the most basic would be to use some aluminum foil and fold it over on itself 3-4 times, making sure it's about the same L and W of the card, and a little bit longer at the PCI bracket so you can attach it there.  You'll need to find some way to support the "shield" from the other components on the card . . . thermal pads, double layered duct tape, folded up electrical tape, rubber washers tapped onto the shield, etc.
> 
> *It's looks a little barbaric, but it works.*
> 
> ...



Seeems.......complicated....


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## kaosII (Mar 19, 2010)

When I started to reply there where 6- 7 replies as I went to post............Holy crap this seems to be a very touchy subject. 
I deleted my original post and I'll just watch. Glad you're not all in the same room.


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## RejZoR (Apr 17, 2010)

Any idea when these will be available in Europe? They were suppose to be available in March but it's mid April now and i haven't seen a single one in any of our stores. And i want one now because i can't stand the rotten Xonar anymore.


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## FreedomEclipse (Apr 17, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> Any idea when these will be available in Europe? They were suppose to be available in March but it's mid April now and i haven't seen a single one in any of our stores. And i want one now because i can't stand the rotten Xonar anymore.



whats wrong with the Xonar??


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## RejZoR (Apr 17, 2010)

It's rubbish, that's what it is. And i don't want to see it anymore. BSOD after BSOD and when i think i just managed to patch it i get a BSOD. Fuck that. I threw it out and i'll sell it as soon as i can.
Sound was good when it worked. But that was all gone when i swapped HD4870 for HD5850.

So, do you have any idea when will Titanium HD cards be available?


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## FreedomEclipse (Apr 17, 2010)

according to creatives news report - the cards were released in Singapore at the end of march - but have found no additional info other then that.


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## Wile E (Apr 18, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> It's rubbish, that's what it is. And i don't want to see it anymore. BSOD after BSOD and when i think i just managed to patch it i get a BSOD. Fuck that. I threw it out and i'll sell it as soon as i can.
> Sound was good when it worked. But that was all gone when i swapped HD4870 for HD5850.
> 
> So, do you have any idea when will Titanium HD cards be available?



You don't necessarily have to wait for them to release. The Auzentech X-Fi Forte or X-Fi Bravura would be excellent alternatives. Both are based on the same X-Fi processor, and have the same attention to detail, and are built from top quality components.


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## RejZoR (Apr 18, 2010)

I know, but i'd prefer the Creative one.


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## Wile E (Apr 19, 2010)

RejZoR said:


> I know, but i'd prefer the Creative one.



Really? The Auzen cards are built better, and less people have been complaining about the drivers than the typical Creative card. But hey, to each their own I suppose.


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## Steevo (Apr 19, 2010)

My onboard with tweaked drivers, and a good tweaking sounds OK. Mostly it is just the crap filters, and encoder/decoder codecs that cause the poor quality sound. And the lack of real power, but if I want that I just burn a CD and listen to my yamaha. I can feel my eardrums flex at high volumes.


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## RejZoR (Apr 19, 2010)

Wile E said:


> Really? The Auzen cards are built better, and less people have been complaining about the drivers than the typical Creative card. But hey, to each their own I suppose.



As it turns out, Titanium HD cards are nowhere to be found (no one knows when either), X-Fi Bravura is rubbish (renamed X-Fi Xtreme Audio with better components). I could hardly get my hands on Auzentech X-Fi Forte. But i got it and it just shipped out. I'm expecting it tommorow. Will see how it works.


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## TAViX (Apr 20, 2010)

I wonder....Is a SB Live! better than the on-board soundcard??? Just found one in my old PC...


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## FreedomEclipse (Apr 20, 2010)

If you got Reatek HD codecs then probably no.


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