# Why 3D doesn't work and never will. Case closed



## qubit (Nov 27, 2011)

That's not me saying it, but Walter Murch, the most respected film editor and sound designer in the modern cinema:



> I received a letter that ends, as far as I am concerned, the discussion about 3D. It doesn't work with our brains and it never will.
> 
> The notion that we are asked to pay a premium to witness an inferior and inherently brain-confusing image is outrageous. The case is closed.



Walter writes:



> The biggest problem with 3D, though, is the "convergence/focus" issue. A couple of the other issues -- darkness and "smallness" -- are at least theoretically solvable. But the deeper problem is that the audience must focus their eyes at the plane of the screen -- say it is 80 feet away. This is constant no matter what.
> 
> But their eyes must converge at perhaps 10 feet away, then 60 feet, then 120 feet, and so on, depending on what the illusion is. So 3D films require us to focus at one distance and converge at another. And 600 million years of evolution has never presented this problem before. All living things with eyes have always focussed and converged at the same point.
> 
> If we look at the salt shaker on the table, close to us, we focus at six feet and our eyeballs converge (tilt in) at six feet. Imagine the base of a triangle between your eyes and the apex of the triangle resting on the thing you are looking at. But then look out the window and you focus at sixty feet and converge also at sixty feet. That imaginary triangle has now "opened up" so that your lines of sight are almost -- almost -- parallel to each other.












Time to bin my nvidia 3D Vision glasses then.

Chicago Sun-Times


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## cheesy999 (Nov 27, 2011)

qubit said:


> That's not me saying it, but Walter Murch, the most respected film editor and sound designer in the modern cinema:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also the fact that it doesn't actually add anything to the viewing experience, and normally causes all of the other aspects of the image to suffer


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## BarbaricSoul (Nov 27, 2011)

IMHO, the only way 3D will truely work is with holograms. I can't wait for star trek holodecks to become available.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 27, 2011)

Sheeple will fall for the 3d thing, whatever anyone says. Not for me though.


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## Sinzia (Nov 27, 2011)

I love it for gaming, but not for movies.


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## Neuromancer (Nov 27, 2011)

Never heard of this guy, but heres a news flash, 3D works precisely for the reasons he says it doesn't. 


Just because you are focused on one point does not mean you are oblivious to everything else going on around you. So focus on the screen and let the 3D stuff (which IME is usually amorphous blobs, or bits of debris) be unfocused (to your eye) but still presenting the illusuion of 3D. I do not like 3D either, but generally because the 3D is an after thought and usually adds nothing to the story.

Personally, I will respect the wishes of millions of movie goers over the anonymous bitching of one man. And proclaim 3D here to stay.


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## Wrigleyvillain (Nov 27, 2011)

"_Anonymous_ bitching of _one man_"?

Boy, if anyone ever needed to RTFA it's you.


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## Frizz (Nov 27, 2011)

Sinzia said:


> I love it for porn, but not for movies.



Fixed! I keeeed. 

I do enjoy 3d in Skyrim seeing the snow almost fall out of my screen and the fire breathing dragons is quite awesome. Although for movies it really depends what you're watching some films fit really well into 3D aka Avatar but some if not most are just horrible and eye straining.


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## Widjaja (Nov 28, 2011)

random said:


> Fixed! I keeeed.
> 
> I do enjoy 3d in Skyrim seeing the snow almost fall out of my screen and the fire breathing dragons is quite awesome. Although for movies it really depends what you're watching some films fit really well into 3D aka Avatar but some if not most are just horrible and eye straining.



My Brother said the same thing about avatar....and the game even though the actual game play is rubbish.

From what I gather 3D is a hit or miss with games, depending on how well it has been implemented.

Poorly implemented 3D into a game will cause a ghost double image effect.


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## W1zzard (Nov 28, 2011)

from what i understand the argument is "3d movies can't deliver an experience as realistic as real life". so what? 2d movies clearly can't either and a lot of people enjoy them.

why is there no smell ? or real pain in the movies? i vote for electro-shock-chairs


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## Frick (Nov 28, 2011)

tigger said:


> Sheeple will fall for the 3d thing, whatever anyone says. Not for me though.



using the term "sheeple" should result in an insta-ban.


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## MRCL (Nov 28, 2011)

Frick said:


> using the term "sheeple" should result in an insta-ban.



Yes it should be humaneeps. 
Anyway 3D in movies meh, in games meh, on the 3DS cool. But also meh. The problem is too many 3D enhanced games/movies focus too much on the 3D stuff and forget that the actual thing is crap. I have Tetris 3D on the 3DS, and I turn 3D off because it just...well...its silly, really. I play it because its Tetris. Ridge Racer 3D is cool with the effect, but it doesn't make something average insta-awesome. Thats where the problem mainly lies, in my opinion.

Make average film + 3D slapped on some scenes = PROFIT! And thats where the rabbit is buried (wait that saying doesn't exist in English does it)


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 28, 2011)

Frick said:


> using the term "sheeple" should result in an insta-ban.



I could have used the term idiots, or morons instead, it is my opinion, and i did not make any sort of attack on a specific person.

Also, by the term sheeple, i mean the type of people who will buy into something because it is considered cool, your not one of them are you?


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## Frizz (Nov 28, 2011)

MRCL said:


> Yes it should be humaneeps.
> Anyway 3D in movies meh, in games meh, on the 3DS cool. But also meh. The problem is too many 3D enhanced games/movies focus too much on the 3D stuff and forget that the actual thing is crap. I have Tetris 3D on the 3DS, and I turn 3D off because it just...well...its silly, really. I play it because its Tetris. Ridge Racer 3D is cool with the effect, but it doesn't make something average insta-awesome. Thats where the problem mainly lies, in my opinion.
> 
> Make average film + 3D slapped on some scenes = PROFIT! And thats where the rabbit is buried (wait that saying doesn't exist in English does it)



imo that's where 3D on the PC outshines other devices, you can pretty much play, watch or fap to anything in 3D thanks to the third party software Tridef .


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## qubit (Nov 28, 2011)

Walter Murch says in his letter that the "strobing" effect is worse with 3D. Anyone know what he means by that?

The only thing I can think of is the judder one sees because every frame of a 24fps movie is shown twice, to get 48Hz to remove flicker. This is the solution thought up in the 1920s or whenever it was they developed the current movie standard and they really should update the bloody thing. They've got enough money in Hollywood to do this FFS. Oh, sorry, forgot about all the "pirates" that are "decimating" them. 

I can prove this (the strobing) because, I can play a game with 3D Vision and with the computer rendering 120fps (60Hz per eye) the movement is liquid smooth, with no judders in sight. In fact, the 3D glasses have the fantastic side effect of removing all motion smear, making animation even better than a CRT, since the picture is pin sharp. 



W1zzard said:


> from what i understand the argument is "3d movies can't deliver an experience as realistic as real life". so what? 2d movies clearly can't either and a lot of people enjoy them.
> 
> why is there no smell ? or real pain in the movies? *i vote for electro-shock-chairs*



I think we need at least a kilovolt on them for that realistic, visceral effect.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Nov 28, 2011)

Imo 3D is a gimmick, a passing fad.

It might be better when they can do it without the glasses, and without giving certain people an aneurysm, like the 3ds does.


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## pantherx12 (Nov 28, 2011)

It was my understanding that you're eyes don't converge on the 3d popout effect, focusing/convergence is on the screen it's self because the 3d is just an illusion (I.E you brain thinks it's there)


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## Captain.Abrecan (Nov 28, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> It was my understanding that you're eyes don't converge on the 3d popout effect, focusing/convergence is on the screen it's self because the 3d is just an illusion (I.E you brain thinks it's there)



Eyes focus subconsciously, which is why people get headaches watching 3d stuff.  Once the rest of the frame goes out of focus your eyes try to adjust automatically, but they can't because the image is wrong.  Some people don't have a problem focusing on the 3d effect, which probably are the tiny collection of people who like 3d.


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## W1zzard (Nov 28, 2011)

Captain.Abrecan said:


> Some people don't have a problem focusing on the 3d effect, which probably are the tiny collection of people who like 3d.



3d movies are actually designed around that. scenes of "lots" of 3d are mixed with 2d-only scenes so that you dont get sick


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## MRCL (Nov 28, 2011)

Captain.Abrecan said:


> Eyes focus subconsciously, which is why people get headaches watching 3d stuff.  Once the rest of the frame goes out of focus your eyes try to adjust automatically, but they can't because the image is wrong.  Some people don't have a problem focusing on the 3d effect, which probably are the tiny collection of people who like 3d.



I'll give an example of Ridge Racer 3D for the 3DS. It creates a depth effect, so the environment and the race track have a depth effect to them (which lets you judge distances way better). But it depends on what you focus. If you focus on the car which is fairly static in the middle of the lower screen position, you get dizzy fast, and the environment gets blurry, ghosting is visible. if you focus ahead of the car, its cristal clear, no dizzyness, no ghosting. Also in hood-view, you just see the environment so no problems there, too.

Also it depends on the viewing angle. On the 3DS very strongly anyways with all the games.

If you focus on whats actually rendered in 3D you have next to no problems, but if you focus elsewhere, it gets problematic. For me personally at least. Now in movies where everything sorta is 3D, its another story. 3D in RL works because you're surrounded by it. 3D in media is mostly depth effect. Its a 3D illusion on a 2D device. This tricks your eyes I think.

As mentioned before, holograms would truly deliver 3D with no eyestrain because it would be a 3D image projected in a 3D environment eliminating the flat surface 3D is created on with current methods.

Take this all from someone who just voices his opinion on the matter. But I see no real future in current 3D either. As tigger said its rather gimmicky. And altough your eyes see 3D depth and all, your brain still knows something is off.


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## Drone (Nov 28, 2011)

Nothing's new here ... anywho 

If there was some kind of "_smart_" 3D where all environment and objects are rendered depending on the observer's position and change and adjust their values according to that then focus convergence depth of field and all that jazz would match so observers wouldn't be forced and they could look at _any_ object they want to look at and get "real" 3D image. That would require eye-tracking technology so the system would know where do you look at, movie itself had to be filmed by gazillion cameras from each and every possible distance position and angle ... well it's too complicated and I can imagine how expensive. Plus, how that would work if there's more than one person.


Anyway 3D was always just a *gimmick* and nothing more. Because it wasn't even real 3D in the first place. It was just a trick. And those goofy glasses .... 

There can be only four kinds of "real 3D": *real world*, where you can shoot nazis, rapists, terrorists and other scum for real (who knows maybe aliens and zombies too ...), *holography* - displaying real 3D content mid-air, your *imagination/dreams/thoughts* and all that stuff that your brain generates and a *virtual reality* - 3D content getting uploaded directly inside your brain.

/ramble


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## Frick (Nov 28, 2011)

I think it has some merit if done properly. It is a gimmick, sure, but I don't understand why people are so upset by that.


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## v12dock (Nov 28, 2011)

I want "HD+" and better sound quality screw 3D


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## MRCL (Nov 28, 2011)

v12dock said:


> I want "HD+" and better sound quality screw 3D



Elaborate please. 
Your eyes can only see so much, so at some point the ultra super high mega hyper resolution becomes moot.
Better sound quality? Well get yourself decent speakers and an amp, its gonna cost you a four digit number but there you go, instant super excellent sound quality. You can't expect some magic spell making your built-in TV speakers sound like eargasming Carebears shooting crispy clear sound out of their fluffy magic bellies.


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