# MSI GTX 780 Lightning 3 GB



## W1zzard (Aug 30, 2013)

MSI's new GTX 780 Lightning is built to provide a ton of overclocking features for enthusiasts and record breakers. Its large overclock out of the box makes this card faster than the GTX Titan, yet it still has more headroom inside, as our manual overclock yielded another hefty 14% performance increase.

*Show full review*


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## Random Murderer (Aug 30, 2013)

Great review as always, W1zz!
Disappointing that such a well-thought-out card is held back by Elpida chips...


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## W1zzard (Aug 30, 2013)

Random Murderer said:


> Disappointing that such a well-thought-out card is held back by Elpida chips...



the difference is small, probably not worth it for most users, but people hunting world records need every little bit of performance


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## radrok (Aug 30, 2013)

Thank you for the review.

Only issue I have with the card apart the Elpida memory is the fact that this should have had a Titan core instead of a 780.

This is to blame Nvidia ofc, not MSI.


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## BigMack70 (Aug 30, 2013)

I just have a hard time understanding what makes this card worth a $70 price premium over the evga classified or the galaxy HOF... I mean I know value is sort of not a consideration anyways for the 780 but still... 10% price hike for????? 


Thanks for the review!


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## Yeoman (Aug 30, 2013)

Nice review. 

I'm curious though, how much of an improvement is the 'tri frozr' cooler over the new 'twin frozr'? The 780 Gaming is somewhat quieter and cooler (although I know the Lightning has a higher 'stock' clock), for all the 3 fans, and 7? heat pipes, it doesn't seem to have made an impression really.


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## Assimilator (Aug 30, 2013)

BigMack70 said:


> I just have a hard time understanding what makes this card worth a $70 price premium over the evga classified or the galaxy HOF... I mean I know value is sort of not a consideration anyways for the 780 but still... 10% price hike for?????



Especially since many Galaxy 780 HoF samples seem to hit 1.3GHz+ core with standard cooling. This card is 20% slower for 10% more money... just not worth it.


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## haswrong (Aug 31, 2013)

i had expected the lightning to hit at least 60fps @2560x1600 a bit better in hitman or far cry3. maybe titan lightning..? well.. elpida? meh.. w/e. thanks for the review.


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## Amrael (Aug 31, 2013)

Why haven't you guys reviewed the EVGA GTX 780 Classified? It's been around for a while and it would be amazing to see a triple header Classified, HoF and Lightning review. Pros and cons of each just to give us more perspective. Personally I went for the Classified because I could extend the warranty to 10 years and because it clocks higher with less effort than the lightning. Given, it looks like an aesthetically ugly brick but performance wise it is something else. Would you guys consider reviewing those cards?


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## Wastedslayer (Aug 31, 2013)

Amrael said:


> Why haven't you guys reviewed the EVGA GTX 780 Classified? It's been around for a while and it would be amazing to see a triple header Classified, HoF and Lightning review. Pros and cons of each just to give us more perspective. Personally I went for the Classified because I could extend the warranty to 10 years and because it clocks higher with less effort than the lightning. Given, it looks like an aesthetically ugly brick but performance wise it is something else. Would you guys consider reviewing those cards?



Show me a Heaven run, I dont like Furmark for testing stability. Just to show the Lightning isnt anything to scoff at (minus the elpida memory) here's what Im running at right now on air.






Heaven stable (extreme preset 1920x1080) with no funny business going on. I got crap for memory OC, but thats a mighty fine looking core I'm running and its boosting into the 1300's.


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## Amrael (Aug 31, 2013)

Wastedslayer said:


> Show me a Heaven run, I dont like Furmark for testing stability. Just to show the Lightning isnt anything to scoff at (minus the elpida memory) here's what Im running at right now on air.
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/130831/ceb93.jpg
> 
> Heaven stable (extreme preset 1920x1080) with no funny business going on. I got crap for memory OC, but thats a mighty fine looking core I'm running and its boosting into the 1300's.



Thats what I got, mine doesn't overclock too much farther than this but I still would love to see a triple header review just to set the record straight. BTW I don't really know which memory mine's got. How do I find out?


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## Wastedslayer (Aug 31, 2013)

I think the Classifieds also have Elpida memory since Samsung and Hynix are in mega short supply. Only real way to tell is to take the heatsink off and look at the physical chips


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## Amrael (Aug 31, 2013)

Wastedslayer said:


> I think the Classifieds also have Elpida memory since Samsung and Hynix are in mega short supply. Only real way to tell is to take the heatsink off and look at the physical chips



Why is your Lightning clocking @ 863 Stock, are you using the regular bios? What's your boost core?


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## Wastedslayer (Aug 31, 2013)

Amrael said:


> Why is your Lightning clocking @ 863 Stock, are you using the regular bios? What's your boost core?



I'm using the LN2 bios since it supposedly has a little more OC headroom. Based on what afterburner is telling me during my runs I'm boosting right around 1333. I think it could go maybe a little higher with more power, but I honestly don't think a few more Mhz is going to make the difference.

Edit: Im also starting to wonder if I need to re-install the drivers versus just slapping the card in and ripping my 670 out. GPU-Z is saying I dont have PhysX support as well lol.


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## radrok (Aug 31, 2013)

Could you both post some scores here? 

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183712&page=10

Wanna see what those 780s are capable of 

Thanks


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## Wastedslayer (Aug 31, 2013)

radrok said:


> Could you both post some scores here?
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183712&page=10
> 
> ...



Ill get on it here soon, I'm realizing now that just putting in my 780 after having the 670 is causing some....issues. Going to do a fresh install of Windows and the nVidia drivers after which Ill post some more results.


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## Amrael (Aug 31, 2013)

radrok said:


> Could you both post some scores here?
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183712&page=10
> 
> ...



Downloading valley now


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## radrok (Sep 1, 2013)

Thank you both


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## dj-electric (Sep 1, 2013)

Amrael said:


> Why haven't you guys reviewed the EVGA GTX 780 Classified? It's been around for a while and it would be amazing to see a triple header Classified, HoF and Lightning review. Pros and cons of each just to give us more perspective. Personally I went for the Classified because I could extend the warranty to 10 years and because it clocks higher with less effort than the lightning. Given, it looks like an aesthetically ugly brick but performance wise it is something else. Would you guys consider reviewing those cards?
> 
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1149243_523692254378184_884533210_o.jpg



Reviewing cards goes like this:
Reviewer ask a card from the local PR >> PR checks for review sample and retrieve an answer. if Positive - a card is sent, if negative or no answer at all = no review.

Sometimes a reviewer decides that some type of products had enough exposure. Sometimes PRs' are out of review samples and getting new ones may take a while.

The hardware industry isn't always an open buffet as some people might think, even for the most popular of websites. Pardon w1zz and the stuff for off-topic'ing.


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## Footman (Sep 1, 2013)

Jacob at EVGA told me that early Classifieds had Samsung memory, but there is a shortage of Sansung and Hynix memory currently so all GTX 7 series cards will have Elpida memory moving forward.
I can't see the shortage lasting for ever, so at some stage I expect that they will swap back.

From my testing core overclocking makes more difference to performance than memory, so having a 100mhz lower overclock on the memory is meaningless unless you are trying to break records...

I too would look forward to a comparison review of the HOF, Classified and Lightning, however I realize that as a reviewer it is not always possible to test everything as often review samples are provided FOC for testing saving the reviewer the burden of purchasing review samples.

I like your reviews Wizzard, keep up the good work.


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## radrok (Sep 1, 2013)

FYI guys



W1zzard said:


> yes, lightning should arrive today, evga will be shipped soon


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## Spaceman Spiff (Sep 9, 2013)

So does this mean that it is essentially a 4 slot card with the GPU reactor taking up part of the slot above it and the cooler going past the limit of the 2 slot bracket on the other side??


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## Amrael (Sep 10, 2013)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> So does this mean that it is essentially a 4 slot card with the GPU reactor taking up part of the slot above it and the cooler going past the limit of the 2 slot bracket on the other side??



Yup basically, but in all honesty my Classified is better at keeping the space tidy but its really similar in performance to the MSI. Unless you destroy the chances of getting warranty you wont get anything too spectacular out of it. Welcome to the age of uniformed overclocking.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Sep 10, 2013)

....I already hate 3 slot cards.....

Now this one makes 4 unusable??? No thanks MSI. I may get a classy when/if price drops come amd 9xxx release.


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## Amrael (Sep 10, 2013)

Which other 3?


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## EarthDog (Sep 10, 2013)

I wonder, those with this card, how quickly they run into the power limit... I see one person rocking a 1200 base core so around 1350 boost. re you actually holding the boost bin or are you throttling? Do you have the new bios that gives 300% on the ln2 bios?

Our review is done, but at this moment the card is flawed. The 109% limit is hit really quick, and the new bios for 300% limit doesn't work right (shows power use in AB at 250% at stock speed and voltage). This will be a great card when they get the bios sorted...


EDIT: Wait, what was the ACTUAL boost clock achieved? I see the setting, but I do not see the actual boost clocks listed in the overclocking section...


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## AsRock (Sep 10, 2013)

Great review as always however the i think the pricing is messed with the 7990 as you can get one as low as $620.


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## radrok (Sep 10, 2013)

AsRock said:


> Great review as always however the i think the pricing is messed with the 7990 as you can get one as low as $620.




The 7990 is in a completely different segment IMHO. 

The 780L is basically a tweaking/over clocking card while the 7990 is just a regular card. 

I honestly find it hard to compare them even with a similar price because they target two completely different kind of enthusiasts.


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## haswrong (Sep 10, 2013)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> I may get a classy when/if price drops come amd 9xxx release.



classified prices do not usually drop. you may want to wait for classified maxwell.


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## Amrael (Sep 10, 2013)

haswrong said:


> classified prices do not usually drop. you may want to wait for classified maxwell.



classified maxwell?


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## haswrong (Sep 10, 2013)

Amrael said:


> classified maxwell?



the code name for next step in nvidias gpu architecture after kepler. i personally do not believe in a price drop of gtx780 classified.


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## Amrael (Sep 10, 2013)

haswrong said:


> the code name for next step in nvidias gpu architecture after kepler. i personally do not believe in a price drop of gtx780 classified.



Oh ok, yeah I don't believe they will drop in price anytime soon either. Well I gotta say even with all the flaws of these high end classifieds and lightnings, the manufacture is mostly excellent even with the crappy Elpida chips but I am nonetheless super disappointed with the low power limit and borderline active attempts to limit overclocking. If you want to get the most out of it you have to most certainly break warranty which I find really unfair after a ~700+ price tag. I got one and have the same complaints as everyone else, apart from that performance wise I am pleased but my wallet still hurts a bit. Are there any decent bioses around for the classified? I've tried a couple but flashed back to basic because I didn't like how the core clock worked, it was much lower? To start with so I had to overclock more and the card  became really power hungry.


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## EarthDog (Sep 10, 2013)

Hang in there on the Lightning... their LN2 bios will have plenty of power limit and I think goes the furthest voltage wise (1.25v)? 

The classifieds sounds messed up too if its uses more power at the same clock speeds. The Lightning's LN2 bios also lowers the stock clocks, but doesnt use more power (the broken part) until you raise the power limit.


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## AsRock (Sep 10, 2013)

radrok said:


> The 7990 is in a completely different segment IMHO.
> 
> The 780L is basically a tweaking/over clocking card while the 7990 is just a regular card.
> 
> I honestly find it hard to compare them even with a similar price because they target two completely different kind of enthusiasts.



I was not disputing that and just that the pricing was incorrect ( for most of them ).


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## haswrong (Sep 10, 2013)

Amrael said:


> ...any decent bioses around for the classified? I've tried a couple but flashed back to basic because I didn't like how the core clock worked, it was much lower? To start with so I had to overclock more and the card  became really power hungry.




in fact, you dont need too much extra energy to achieve an impressive oc if you have a good asic quality of the chip. if your gpu-z reading of asic is 80+, chances are high your card will boost itself in the 1300-1400mhz range on air without pushing its outer limits..


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## EarthDog (Sep 11, 2013)

haswrong said:


> in fact, you dont need too much extra energy to achieve an impressive oc if you have a good asic quality of the chip. if your gpu-z reading of asic is 80+, chances are high your card will boost itself in the 1300-1400mhz range on air without pushing its outer limits..


1300mhz or so IS around an outer limit of boosted clocks... It is quite rare to see an unmodded 780 hit 1400mhz or frankly much above 1350. Part of that problem is the power limit is so low that it will hit it well before the 1400mhz mark.

http://hwbot.org/benchmark/unigine_...deocard_2049#start=0#interval=20#coolingType=


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## Amrael (Sep 11, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> 1300mhz or so IS around an outer limit of boosted clocks... It is quite rare to see an unmodded 780 hit 1400mhz or frankly much above 1350. Part of that problem is the power limit is so low that it will hit it well before the 1400mhz mark.
> 
> http://hwbot.org/benchmark/unigine_...deocard_2049#start=0#interval=20#coolingType=



My card hits 1280 boost clock stably without any external software apart from Precision. I just switch to the LN2 bios, raise the power limit to 115%, over volt to the max of 38 Mv (wow) and it will get there on its own. I tried one of the bios hanging around the web, and got it to 1380 but it needed 1.26 volts and due to where I live temps become an issue then. My asic is 78.7 so its not one of the best binned chips. What I managed was 1306 core, 6760 Mem , with 1.20218 NVVDD, FBVDD 1.65, PEXVDD 1.14 and all the steps that I used to get 1280 on precision. It's not the best OC but its rock solid stable 24/7. Anyway i don't think that a 1400 Core would really move my frames up that much although it would boost my benchmark scores by maybe 2-300 points; in the end not worth my effort.


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## EarthDog (Sep 11, 2013)

My question for you... Does it HOLD that clockspeed or are you throttling?

Also, the stock bios has 109% power limit on both the normal and LN2 bios. How are you getting 115%?


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## Amrael (Sep 11, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> My question for you... Does it HOLD that clockspeed or are you throttling?
> 
> Also, the stock bios has 109% power limit on both the normal and LN2 bios. How are you getting 115%?



Actually it depends on the load, If I put a really heavy load it will stay @ 1280/1306 core all the time. If I put a lighter load it might not get to the high numbers because it can manage the load just fine. I also used k-boost to test if stability was a problem and it runs like a charm. The stock LN2 bios has a 115% power limit. I'm certainly running the stock LN2 bios. If there is any discrepancy it came with it.


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## EarthDog (Sep 11, 2013)

Yeah, my (review) sample came with 109/109. The new bios does 300% but there are other issues with it. 

I am seeing throttling on my sample at 1202/1220 Mhz in Firestrike, 11, etc... 

Perhaps I have a leaky sample or something but I will bang off the 109% limit without even adding voltage...I wonder if other reviews are doing the same thing, but just do not seem to notice. A lot of review sites, including TPU, do not even seem to report the actual boost clock (as it is always more than what GPUz reports) achieved or if it is even stable at that clock...


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## Amrael (Sep 11, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> Yeah, my (review) sample came with 109/109. The new bios does 300% but there are other issues with it.
> 
> I am seeing throttling on my sample at 1202/1220 Mhz in Firestrike, 11, etc...
> 
> Perhaps I have a leaky sample or something but I will bang off the 109% limit without even adding voltage...I wonder if other reviews are doing the same thing, but just do not seem to notice. A lot of review sites, including TPU, do not even seem to report the actual boost clock (as it is always more than what GPUz reports) achieved or if it is even stable at that clock...



Wait, we are talking about the Lightning right, sorry I was referring to my EVGA Classified. You shouldn't be seeing throttling if you have not used the extra +38Mv. There might be something wrong there. Are you using temp limits? In which benchmark/usage scenario are you seeing throttling?


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## EarthDog (Sep 11, 2013)

Yes, the lightning.. this is a lightning thread... sorry, thought you had a lightning... haha!

I can, on stock clocks and voltage (1.16v actual) hit 1202 (actual boost clock), but much above that and I hit the 109% limit and it starts to drop boost bins and will not hold a stable boost clock. 

As far as benchmarks.. I listed that above (Firestrike, 3D11, Unigine Heaven, etc) not power virus apps like furmark.

EDIT: Temp limits.. no. With 109% the temp limit is 94C. This thing loads to low 60's with 60% fan or so overclocked.


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## Amrael (Sep 11, 2013)

EarthDog said:


> Yes, the lightning.. this is a lightning thread... sorry, thought you had a lightning... haha!
> 
> I can, on stock clocks and voltage (1.16v actual) hit 1202 (actual boost clock), but much above that and I hit the 109% limit and it starts to drop boost bins and will not hold a stable boost clock.
> 
> ...



I'm hitting 66 to 71 degrees with my current OC on the Classified but I live in a tropical island and ambient temps run from 28C to 38C depending on the day so my temps are good. 

Back to the Lightning, have they released the 300% power limit bios? That actually would help a lot and most of them would probably overtake the Classified in OC potential and I hope it happens so that EVGA is forced to release a higher power limit bios because I know for a fact that I'm being limited by this. I already hit 1458 core but it throttles down really quick and it sucks. Anyway, any particular reason for buying a Lightning over a Classified? I think MSI's 3 year warranty sucks for a $700+ product while EVGA at least has warranty extensions even though with the back plate and the extended warranty I went a good $30 dollars over the lightning but now I have a 10 year warranty and every time it breaks down (like in two years or so) they would be obligated to send me a new flagship vga card (even if it is refurb) or something close to the flagship of the moment. And if you are going to overclock a good safety blanket is appreciated.


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## Krahl (Feb 15, 2014)

Bringing part of this thread back to life 

Last week I was "lucky" to find a demo-model at a retailer in Denmark for a low 348€ which I just had to order. Afterall that's close to 200€ below regular price 
Fully aware that it might just be a card that wouldnt be worth two cents if someone had been rocking LN2/absurd OCing on it. Was partly right; however only in the sense that whoever bought the card before returning it to the store had checked ASIC value and fooled around with the LN2 BIOS without causing any damage to the card.
Now I have a bloody powerful card but with a rather low ASIC value of 67.4%. Which means it doesnt go especially high on air. Have a sweetspot somewhere between +110/150 on CoreClock but thats quite low compared to what a "regular" lightning can do

TLR?
How high can I push the Core Voltage on a 24/7 without causing damage to the DIE/GPUCore? MSI Afterburner will let me give +37mV but that sounds way too excessive. I've had a GTX 670DCUII top the past 2 years which have served me well so I'm in a bit of unfamiliar territory when it comes to "safe" voltages on GTX 780s


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## W1zzard (Feb 15, 2014)

0.037 mV is way too low to cause any damage. On my own rig I wouldn't even worry with +0.1 V for long term usage, but I don't have (or have ever seen) any real data to back this up.


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## Krahl (Feb 15, 2014)

W1zzard said:


> 0.037 mV is way too low to cause any damage. On my own rig I wouldn't even worry with +0.1 V for long term usage, but I don't have (or have ever seen) any real data to back this up.


Thanks - I won't be worrying about that small amount of voltage then

I've been running a few Valley benchmarks; and I've never asked or found out whether one can trust the Gpu Mhz in top right corner? 
I know that the 2.0 gpu algorithm has added some good stuff in terms of performance overall but if it's correct then my card is running 1431Mhz boost stable...and that seems excessive on a 67.4% ASIC


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## W1zzard (Feb 15, 2014)

How does that seem excessive? If the card is stable and not too hot for your taste, and not too noisy, then it's fine. Clock rate has no effect on lifetime


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## haswrong (Feb 15, 2014)

Krahl said:


> Thanks - I won't be worrying about that small amount of voltage then
> 
> I've been running a few Valley benchmarks; and I've never asked or found out whether one can trust the Gpu Mhz in top right corner?
> I know that the 2.0 gpu algorithm has added some good stuff in terms of performance overall but if it's correct then my card is running 1431Mhz boost stable...and that seems excessive on a 67.4% ASIC



valley doesnt show the exact value on all occasions. you are better off with a riva tuner statistics server, which you can run standalone, but is most likely part of instal of msi afterburner or evga precisionx overclocking and monitoring tool. you will then configure the rt server to give you a text output on your screen, and what data to monitor. they will be displayed in real time. in some programs the priority of the layer is inhibited, so its not visible (3d mark), but maybe it can be forced to appear again. also, download kepler bios tweaker 1.25 or 1.26 if you want to load and see how the values are configured for your card. you can save your bios with gpu-z utility from w1zzard ^^ himself. if you wish to change any of those values, you will want to flash that changed bios file back to the card, do so with nvflash utility from nvidia in cmd.exe (or in bios tweaker 1.25 directly from the app itself, theres a button just fro that), it should take less than 20 seconds. if you unlock voltage though, dont forget to put back the oc slider in any overclocking app for your graphics card, as added milivolts are tied to frequency boost, and the card will wake up overclocked (and if you find the boost to be unstable, you can lower the boost range in the bios again).


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## Krahl (Feb 15, 2014)

Excessive didnt provide the message I intended; another and better wording would be "too good to be true" with such a low ASIC score. Been doing a bit of OCing today with numerous crashes and what have you not being caused by me thinking it was actually able to pull such an impressive feat of an OC with the low ASIC score. I was wrong 
Coreclock can run 1200 though with no voltage added while ram is ( yay ... not) Elpida and arent very friendly in terms of OCing as pr info here and basicly every other HW-site on the globe.

I'm hoping I'll be able to get closer to 1300 Coreclock with the LN2 bios and the PowerTarget of "300" /This is Spartaaaa/ though I doubt it. If this card is unwilling to clock as high as I've seen other Lightnings do I'll be left with a "pretty good" Lightning that I saved almost 200€ on.

Thanks for the info haswrong - much appreciated


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