# Help me decide once and for all - audio



## Nordic (Jun 17, 2012)

I have a few threads about audio I have started, relating to different things. I am not happy with what I got now, and am looking to upgrade. This will pretty much be a speakers vs headphones thread. The purpose is to help me decide what I want/need, I honestly don't know. I have been reading a lot about audio this last week and I just feel lost. I would prefer to stay on a cheaper budget too.

My current audio situation is onboard realtek alc892 from my msi p67 gd53. Going through some cheap speakers, either my tv (hdmi with 6950) or external (3.5mm jack). I am not an audiophile, but I mostly play games and occasional music.

I have these 5.1 surround speakers without the dvd player sitting in my garage. http://www.overstock.com/Electronic...inment-System-Refurbished/887038/product.html
I would need to get a 5.1 receiver for $100-$150 for this because the speakers connect by speaker wire..

I have also been considering headphones too. I have these headphones http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826193065. I got them for $7 with promo when my $5 pair broke. They sound good to me but I also don't know what good sounds like. They arn't that comfortable after an hour. I am thinking that a good set of comfy over ear headphones would be good. I like the idea of wireless headphones a lot.

I have also considered getting a sound card. The reviews of the asus xonar dg + its $25 nearly convinced me to get one. I have been looking all the way up to an Auzentech X-Fi Edit:raider. I didn't because I don't have very good speakers anyway.

What would provide the best experience, those speakers or headphones?
If I chose headphones, what should I be looking at?
Would I lose worthwhile quality if I chose wireless?
Would it be worthwhile to get a soundcard?

I have read some stuff like:


Completely Bonkers said:


> I'm with Dent. The time of soundcards is OVER. They were very important 10  years ago. Now it is all down to the amp and speakers. What differentiates a soundcard today is just the quality of the pre-amp section of the board. An external amp/decoder is far better than ANY PCI/PCIe soundcard until you go ProAudio. But really, that's a professional market for music production, and gamers dont need to venture into that space.





Dent1 said:


> I used to have the Creative Auzen X-fi Forte, probably the best sounding card I had owned as far as gaming but the issues I had with Creative's buggy dashboard was ongoing. In the end the driver issues although bearable forced me to sell it.
> 
> Also had an Auzentech Meridian, had not faults, perfect drivers wonderful. Only sold it because I wanted HDMI output.
> 
> ...





Dent1 said:


> Don't need to spend £1500.
> What effects? Soundcards have been standardised since Vista so there is little advantages as far as effects. Games either use Direct Sound or Open AL. All sound cards have EAX 2.0 support. There is no support for anything above despite what creative might say.
> 
> The amps on most soundcards are equivalent to the ones on a receiver, so if you are running a headset you'd be better off connecting it directly to a soundcard. But yes, a pair of £40 Warfedale Diamond 9.0 bookshelf speakers connected to a mediocre £100+ receiver would sound better than the Logitech Z5500.


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## tribaljet (Jun 17, 2012)

Here is the thing, if you do intend on putting your 5.1 speakers to good use, having a soundcard with multichannel support is required, unless you get a receiver and connect it through S/PDIF.

Now, I would assume that that speaker set is nothing to call home about, and if you are considerin headphones, I do think you get incredibly more value for your money, as you have to spend many times more money to achieve similar quality on speakers.

Let's get one thing out of the way, wireless is never the way when it comes to sound, even if there are a couple wireless headphones that are above the mud scenario of wireless sound.

Considering you haven't said if you play only recent games or all games, and what music genres you listen to, recommendations will have to be made in a broad sense.

If gaming is a main consideration, you need to get a soundcard that has a X-Fi DSP chip, which can be a Creative X-Fi card (no, none of that recent Recon3D fluff!), an Auzentech model that uses the full version of the X-Fi DSP (there are gimped versions that have no hardware acceleration and only do up to EAX 4 in software, and those card often have lower quality components) or some audiophile specific cards that happen to also have a X-Fi DSP chip, since it's usefulness goes beyond gaming.

Getting an Auzentech X-Fi Forte, an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude (older card but just as good) or a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD (currently the best consumer card money can buy) is a very good bet, as the sound quality of any of those cards (increasing from former to latter) is quite above what any onboard audio chip produces, be it in terms of fidelity, audio components used, PCB tracing, audio features, and even simply how loud it can go.

There might be suggestions of getting an Asus Xonar (any, from DG to Essence STX) soundcard, but they basically lack all gaming audio features that are only present on full fledged X-Fi DSP powered cards, like hardware OpenAL, any EAX version above version 2, specific proprietary algorithms that improve positional audio in depth and height, etc. The current implementation of Asus emulation of Creative proprietary features is very buggy at best, and completely game breaking on many cases. Asus once did the ridiculous claim of supporting EAX 5 through emulation, for which it had a heavy lawsuit on their hands, since there was no licensing for that tech. Now, they are going down the voice count increase with no additional extensions of positional audio filters, which in terms of gaming, makes up for a rather poor audio experience.
On overall, Asus Xonar cards have their money's worth on movies (and some on music) mainly.

EDIT: About Creative drivers, most problems some users face are due to doing reckless driver installation, as Creative driver installation guidelines state that the base drivers that come with their newer cards must always be installed, and updates installed on top. The second part is related to instability that might happen if people do frantic DSP mode switching (something no regular uses does anyway), which can easily be avoided to installing the optional automatic mode switcher, and by adding specific programs to specific modes, those issues are circumvented all around.

I do think you should consider trying to approach the headphone world, but not through outlandish purchases that might not satisfy you adequately (like flagship models $1000 upwards).
Consider the following pricings that set (high quality, not overpriced "gaming" headset garbage) headphones to different tiers:
0-20 USD = trash audio
20-50 USD = entry audio
50-150/200 = entry quality audio
200-500 = mid-fi audio
500-1000 = high quality audio
1000-xxxx = flagship audio

With that said, there are 3 headphones that are highly recommended by the audiophile community in terms of entry audio, namely:

AKG K81DJ (or the rebadged K518DJ) - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BDD56W/?tag=tec06d-20

Panasonic RP-HTF600-S - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004MMEI8W/?tag=tec06d-20

JVC HARX700 - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013OWPV4/?tag=tec06d-20

About headphones (if you do decide they're a path you want to take), you should be aware that the higher quality (in broad terms) they are, the higher amplification needs will be, but fortunately the headphone amplifier market has been booming on the past few years, and you can get quite good headphone amps from 50 to 150 USD, that will allow you to power most headphones up to 500 USD without much trouble.


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## Nordic (Jun 17, 2012)

That is a heck of a helpful first post. Thank you. You said everything I think I need to know about headphones and sound cards.
If I get headphones, I think I will get a sound card too. I am looking at the JVC HARX700 and JVC HA-RX900 by your recommendation.
I will be trying to stick to a budget of $100. So between a souncard and headphones, which should I put more into? 50/50, 60/40?
Music is broad. Gaming is mostly fps, racing, and some odd other games. All from with in the last 5 years.

Those speakers are mid range 5.1 surround. I have never tried them before. Since I have untrained ears they probably would sound great to me. I would need to buy a basic 5.1 av receiver and probably would stick with onboard audio.

After all that. It really comes down to what would be best for me, headphones or speakers?


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, make no mistakes as both headphones and speakers benefit from a higher quality source (soundcard/DAC).

As long as you don't get the JVC HARX500 and below, you're all good, as the HARX700 are the minimum model to get, in both sound and build quality. They are also rather easy to drive headphones, which means you can just plug them straight to the headphone jack of a soundcard or from a *gasp* onboard audio chip.

On the untrained/trained ears subject, people who spent most of their listening time as casual listeners usually have untrained ears, and won't immediately notice all the audio improvements from higher quality gear, as audio quality isn't as "in your face" as image quality. Still, most untrained ears that spend a couple of weeks with higher quality gear DO notice worse sound when going back to their prior audio gear.

Considering your listening habits, gaming playing a big part and music as well, I do think you would do good in getting an Auzentech X-Fi Forte, which is a brand that took a near flagship Creative soundcard design from the first and second X-Fi hardware generations, upgraded many components, added an integrated headphone amplifier and did a custom software package. But if your budget allows you to, I would recommend you getting a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, which has higher quality components when compared to the Auzentech X-Fi Forte and a newer DAC chip. 
Basically in terms of sound and build quality, things are like this: Creative X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) < Auzentech X-Fi Forte < Creative X-Fi Titanium HD

There is a misconception that by connecting devices through S/PDIF, it no longer matters where a $1 onboard audio chip or a $150 soundcard is used, but PCB tracing and component implementation are quite important, and do affect the end result in a rather audible way.

So, getting a receiver would facilitate you being able to connect the speakers to the computer, in which you can connect through S/PDIF and having a good quality set of headphones that's connected to the amped headphone jack.
For instance, I find that gaming, especially competitive gaming, benefits much more from accurate headphones paired with a soundcard that has gaming as one of its main considerations rather than the same soundcard setup with speakers, again because of the much higher price requirement of speaker setups in order to even get nearly close to what's accessible through headphones. But, for music and movies, speakers might (not necessarily always) be a better option, as speakers have larger drivers that allow for a better tactile feel to audio, something that in headphones require specific headphone drivers that are tuned for specific audio usages or music genres, for instance.

With that said, how far can you stretch your budget? And what are your exact listening habits? If gaming, is it casual or competitive gaming? Do you prefer less "fun" but more accurate sound, or do you prefer more immersive (cinematic feel) audio?


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## Nordic (Jun 18, 2012)

tribaljet said:


> With that said, how far can you stretch your budget? And what are your exact listening habits? If gaming, is it casual or competitive gaming? Do you prefer less "fun" but more accurate sound, or do you prefer more immersive (cinematic feel) audio?


I really would like to stay south of a $100 budget, but maybe go up to $150 for a receiver.

I try to be competitive sometimes but most of the time I am pretty casual. I don't know what I prefer in terms of sound. I would like to say accurate.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

Hum, that is a rather restrictive budget, especially if that budget is for the whole audio purchases. Just the receiver alone can easily bust your budget, depending on the specs and features it has.

Keep in mind that if you have high quality gear, like speakers and headphones, connected to a low quality source, you will actually have a bad opinion of the speakers and haedphones because the sound you're listening to isn't what the gear is actually capable of.

The ideal situation for you would be a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD (or an Auzentech X-Fi Forte, if the price difference is significant), along with a set of JVC HARX900 (basically a refined version of the HARX700) for gaming (and music, if you end up enjoying more the sound of those headphones rather than the speakers), and a receiver for connecting your 5.1 speakers that can then be used for everything, from games to music and movies, although they do look like they would perform better with movies and perhaps some music genres.

Now, the issue with the above is that soundcard + headphones + receiver is likely to be closer to $200 than $100.


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## Nordic (Jun 18, 2012)

tribaljet said:


> Hum, that is a rather restrictive budget, especially if that budget is for the whole audio purchases. Just the receiver alone can easily bust your budget, depending on the specs and features it has.
> 
> Keep in mind that if you have high quality gear, like speakers and headphones, connected to a low quality source, you will actually have a bad opinion of the speakers and haedphones because the sound you're listening to isn't what the gear is actually capable of.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your input really. You have been a huge help. I know little about audio. Think of it this way. I am taking my baby steps into audio with this, not a marathon. I am going for gaming audio.



> Xonar DG + JVC HA-RX700 its a very good cheap combo, and will cost you around ~$60


From another thread I am reading.

I think I will go with headphones and a soundcard because it is cheaper and easier to upgrade down the road.
I am thinking JVC RX700 to JVC RX900 along with, I am thinking asus xonar dg to ds. Maybe even an azun x-raider.
Baby steps.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

Yes, despite the gaming audio features severely lacking, the Xonar DG is a good entry soundcard that's often paired with entry headphones for a budget "audiophile" setup. The quotes were there since audiophile setups often costs hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, but that doesn't take the Xonar DG plus _x_ set of headphone any merit.

If going with a Xonar DG, the upgrade path should never go through a Xonar DS, as it basically adds a single digital format decoding, loses another, has lower specs and no integrated headphone amp. From a Xonar DG, you should go to a Xonar D2X/Auzentech X-Fi Forte or a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. The reason I keep bringing up the flagship Creative card is because it's that good, by far the best consumer soundcard currently available. Asus has a competing product in the form of a Xonar Essence STX, but IMHO its sound is rather dry and harsh due to the specific chinese made headphone amp that comes with it.

And I don't really think the Auzentech X-Raider is that good of a soundcard. If you want to get a DAC that doesn't focus on gaming and movies but more on music itself, then you should consider getting external USB DACs, like a FiiO E17 (or a FiiO E10, if you're on a tighter budget at the time).

Before buying audio hardware, you should know what you usually listen to (games, music, movies), and what kind sound you prefer (warmer, more cinematic, more analytic, etc), as that does mean certain products are prefered to others.

While games won't sound as good on a Xonar DG as they would on a X-Fi based card, they will still sound good, and the price difference can be quite large. And if you don't do any pro audio work, the latency issues of Xonar drivers won't affect you much, be it from stock or modded drivers.

Just remember, higher quality headphones will begin to be more demanding in terms of power delivered to them. A $500 set of headphones can actually sound terrible if poorly amped (either by insufficient power or bad quality amplification), so you will end up having to get a headphone amp. There are headphone amps costing $20, but they are nothing more than toys. Currently, there are 2 quality entry headphone amps that should be considered, the PA2V2 (http://www.electric-avenues.com/amplifiers.html) and the FiiO E11 (http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?ID=24&MenuID=020301). I personally prefer the PA2V2 in terms of both sound quality and battery runtime (100h+ on the PA2V2 vs ~15h on the E11). A portable headphone amp is an amplifier you can carry around and use with devices like mp3 players, phones, PMPs, etc.


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## Nordic (Jun 18, 2012)

So you would recommend something like this over the asus dg. Creative Sound Blaster Audigy SE 7.1 Channels 24-b...

The asus dg has a built in headphone amp too.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

NO! Yes, capital letters! I forgot to add that there are two Creative cards you must avoid at all cost, namely the SE/LS variants of Audigy cards (and on overall, all Audigy soundcards since their compatibility lies mainly on legacy Windows XP, and they have a troublesome resampler engine) and the XtremeAudio variants of the X-Fi line up (since it's basically a rebranded Audigy SE, lacking the important hardware DSP and most features).
The base Creative card to get is the regular X-Fi Titanium. I'm just saying that below that model, none are worth getting (not talking about previous PCI cards, for which there are a couple amazing ones, only of X-Fi models).

The Asus Xonar DG wins mainly on price. It's really amazingly cheap for what it does, but it's still the lowest soundcard worth getting.


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## Nordic (Jun 18, 2012)

I think thats that.
I am going to see if I can find a better soundcard than the dg for a good price(used), if not get the asus dg. Then get one of those jvc headphones.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

You won't be disappointed with the setup. Just don't raise expectations too much, as untrained ears + entry level gear don't translate into mindblown aural experiences (at least in the first listening sessions).


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## Nordic (Jun 18, 2012)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001E25KDK/?tag=tec06d-20
This card you recommended right? I would need an amp since this one doesn't have it installed.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

This (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0041OUA38/?tag=tec06d-20) is the card I recommend. The regular X-Fi Titanium is just the base model that only shares the name, as the innards are quite different from the Titanium HD.

If you're on a tight budget, get the Xonar DG for now and when you have some money put on the side, get a Titanium HD and you won't need to think of upgrading for many, many years to come, something that definitely can't be said for GPUs.


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## Frederik S (Jun 18, 2012)

The ASUS cards sound way better with headphones, the analogue circuitry on Creative cards are wastly inferior even on their high-end cards. And as someone already said Creative only has a few added DSPs which as far as I can tell do absolutely nothing to improve positional audio, all they seem to do is distort the frequency response more or less. Some might like the EQ that some of the Creative features add, some might not it is a preference thing.

For music playback the ASUS cards are just plain better, gaming wise it is a toss up between the two.  

Currently the best entry level PC based headphone setup is a ASUS card with a proper line-out hooked up to a O2 amplifier, even ASUS STX with upgraded op-amps cannot compete with a totally stock O2 in terms of sound quality and power. 

For a $100 try and get a used ASUS card and a set of HARX-700s.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

Unfortunately, the only Asus soundcard that is close to the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD is the Asus Xonar Essence STX. And when I say close to, I mean near the same level, most definitely not superior at all, especially with its stock dry and harsh sound.

You might be thinking of regular X-Fi Titanium cards, and with that I can agree, but the Titanium HD is a different card altogether.

Apparently, you have little to no experience with Creative cards (Audigy and X-Fi series), or you would know how improved positional cues are. I'm not talking about surround virtualization techs at all, mind you, as both Asus and Creative solutions are awful in that regard, but it's an acquired taste.

For music playback, both the Xonar Essence STX and the Titanium HD are exactly on the same level, with the Essence STX being drier sounding and the Titanium HD being warmer sounding. It's not a personal opinion, it's widespread reviewing.

In terms of gaming, the Essence STX has as much capabilities as a $1 onboard audio chip, so it is laughable that it is compared to the Titanium HD. Even the lower quality X-Fi Titanium slaughters the Essence STX, nevermind the version with a newer DAC, higher quality opamps, and the same full gaming audio feature set support. For gaming, the Essence STX (and all Asus cards for that matter) is a joke.

EDIT: The O2 is indeed an amp worth getting, but adding it to an Essence STX would even make its sound less pleasant, as it's on the bright side of neutral, while adding it to a Titanium HD wouldn't hurt the signature at all. But if you followed the OP's posts, you would know that part of the chain is something to be obtained further down the line.

EDIT2: I forgot to mention that Asus soundcards are incapable of passing through sound processing through line-out, while that's available on the Titanium HD if desired.


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## cadaveca (Jun 18, 2012)

tribaljet said:


> EDIT2: I forgot to mention that Asus soundcards are incapable of passing through sound processing through line-out, while that's available on the Titanium HD if desired.



That's funny, I use my Xonar D2X(circa 2008) to real-time encode anything I want into DTS or Dolby(24-bit/96 kHz), and use optical or coaxial to get it to my receiver just fine?

I moved to this Xonar card because it was the only "consumer" card that would do so, and Creative cards would not. The Titanium HD was not even on the market at that time, so maybe that's new for Creative, but there are definitely cards on the ASUS side that can real-time encode...and they were doing it YEARS before Creative cards were.



> Dolby and DTS for Complete Digital Home Experience
> Besides delivering impressive audio quality, the Xonar D2X is also packed with multiple sound technologies from Dolby and DTS to deliver outstanding entertainment experiences. These include
> 
> Dolby Digital Live: *Converts PC or game audio content into Dolby Digital in real-time*
> ...



http://www.asus.com.au/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_D2X/


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> That's funny, I use my Xonar D2X(circa 2008) to real-time encode anything I want into DTS or Dolby, and use optical or coaxial to get it to my receiver just fine?
> 
> I moved to this Xonar card because it was the only "consumer" card that would do so, and Creative cards would not.



The Xonar D2X is a capable card and has a stock signature that's quite more pleasant than the Essence STX.

And I'm not talking about encoding but about being able to alter the original sound chain, be for gear flaw correction (which every single device has) or for entertainment purposes.

At the time, there weren't available the cards that are at the time of writing, so I do agree that for its release date, the Xonar D2X is a great card that still holds its own up to this very same day.

EDIT: Seems like you're forgetting about the PCI X-Fi cards that already did it by default, with the exception of the aforementioned XtremeAudio models. Oddly enough, many of the PCIe X-Fi versions have been gimped in terms of additional functionality, being made available separately as an addon purchase, not a smart move from Creative, but flagship cards of all 3 generations are unaffected.


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## cadaveca (Jun 18, 2012)

tribaljet said:


> And I'm not talking about encoding but about being able to alter the original sound chain, be for gear flaw correction (which every single device has) or for entertainment purposes.



Yes, I fully understand, and I fail to see the problem? I've been using this card for nearly 5 years now, works great, no problems, the only kicker here is that the DS3D GX isn't that great, but I never use it anyway, since I use the card in a DAW WIth Propellerhead's Reason(DAW = Digital Audio Workstation).



tribaljet said:


> EDIT: Seems like you're forgetting about the PCI X-Fi cards that already did it by default, with the exception of the aforementioned XtremeAudio models. Oddly enough, many of the PCIe X-Fi versions have been gimped in terms of additional functionality, being made available separately as an addon purchase, not a smart move from Creative, but flagship cards of all 3 generations are unaffected.



No, actually ,the X-Fi cards, by my testing were far inferior by comparison. They could not real-time encode audio to another format(DTS to dolby, and vice versa), nor record @ 192 KHz(max 96 KHz, even playback was restricted to 96 KHz on X-Fi unless stereo, Xonar does 192 Khz, 5.1 no problem). The only thing that the X-Fi card excelled in was ASIO Latency(less than 4 ms vs 8 ms in Xonar).


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Yes, I fully understand, and I fail to see the problem? I've been using this card for nearly 5 years now, works great, no problems, the only kicker here is that the DS3D GX isn't that great, but I never use it anyway, since I use the card in a DAW(DAW = Digital Audio Workstation).



For DAW usage, it's of no consequence if post processing can be sent through the line-out, as its usefulness lies mainly on the consumer market.

I agree that DS3D GX isn't really worth using, at least with the implementations available, still being too buggy. But it would certainly be good to see it perfected, as that would push Creative to improve their own solution, that while being more compatible and putting the hardware to better use, would end up benefiting gamers owning cards from both brands.


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## cadaveca (Jun 18, 2012)

DS3D GX is flawed due to DX10/DX11. Works great in XP.


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## Millennium (Jun 18, 2012)

For 5.1 I get on fine with my Xonar DX/XD and Logitech X-540. The sound card certainly improved analogue out from my previous onboard P67 era realtec.

For higher quality 5.1 you will need digital out, probably real time DTS/Dolby Digital Live, and a decent amp and speaker set (with a sub). It's a lot of outlay but the benefits are large. My sub should be coming tomorrow to complete my setup (XLS200-DF).


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

DS3D GX doesn't really activate itself on XP since that OS has HAL, therefore the card doesn't need to do workarounds in order to access advanced features. It's on Vista/7 that the challenge lies, and it's not related to DirectX, rather the lack of direct hardware acceleration.


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## cadaveca (Jun 18, 2012)

tribaljet said:


> DS3D GX doesn't really activate itself on XP since that OS has HAL, therefore the card doesn't need to do workarounds in order to access advanced features. It's on Vista/7 that the challenge lies, and it's not related to DirectX, rather the lack of direct hardware acceleration.



Thanks, have a great day. DS3D GX is EAX replacement, and kinda of the equivalent to ALchemy from Creative for Vista. DX10/DX11 changed the audio stack, broke EAX, and these were software technologies that provided the same type of processing when the HAL(hardware abstraction Layer) was removed in Vista.

It it ENTIRELY related to DirectX Audio.


DS in DS3D = DirectSound.






Enjoy your day!


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Thanks, have a great day. DS3D GX is EAX replacement, and kinda of the equivalent to ALchemy from Creative for Vista. DX10/DX11 changed the audio stack, broke EAX, and these were software technologies that provided the same type of processing when the HAL(hardware abstraction Layer) was removed in Vista.
> 
> It it ENTIRELY retlated to DirectX Audio.
> 
> ...



Fair enough, the way you said it sounded like you were talking more about D3D and less about DS3D (R.I.P.) 

DS3D GX is not an EAX replacement, only a software emulation (emphasis on software), having full EAX 2.0 compliance and an increased voice count, but lacking any features above EAX 2.0, which is what all manufacturers can (and most do) provice, due to it being proprietary.

I do hope to enjoy my day, and I hope you do as well


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## NinkobEi (Jun 18, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> No, actually ,the X-Fi cards, by my testing were far inferior by comparison. They could not real-time encode audio to another format(DTS to dolby, and vice versa), nor record @ 192 KHz(max 96 KHz, even playback was restricted to 96 KHz on X-Fi unless stereo, Xonar does 192 Khz, 5.1 no problem). The only thing that the X-Fi card excelled in was ASIO Latency(less than 4 ms vs 8 ms in Xonar).



I was under the impression that virtually all pc audio files don't use anything higher than 48Khz, so having that extra head-room is a waste and actually decreases sound quality in the form of up-sampling. Correct me if I am wrong, it has been a while since I have read up on this.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

NinkobEi said:


> I was under the impression that virtually all pc audio files don't use anything higher than 48Khz, so having that extra head-room is a waste and actually decreases sound quality in the form of up-sampling. Correct me if I am wrong, it has been a while since I have read up on this.



For DAW usage, it's useful to have higher sampling rates and bit depths, despite most content being downsampled to lower formats.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

Wait, cadaveca, are you using OEM drivers or UNi Xonar drivers? I'm asking because I find it curious that you're unable to get lower latency without issues, the card should be able to handle it without mush hassle.


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## cadaveca (Jun 18, 2012)

NinkobEi said:


> I was under the impression that virtually all pc audio files don't use anything higher than 48Khz, so having that extra head-room is a waste and actually decreases sound quality in the form of up-sampling. Correct me if I am wrong, it has been a while since I have read up on this.





tribaljet said:


> For DAW usage, it's useful to have higher sampling rates and bit depths, despite most content being downsampled to lower formats.



Yeah, exactly. Most stuff gets converted down to 24/96 or 16/48, but 24/192 is far less lossy, and best for mixing tracks, dependant on what you are looking for.

Anyway, my whole point in posting is that there is no "exclusive" good brand of audio card to use. It's more about specific uses, and what you want out of the card for those uses.

I spent the last week using a motherboard with built-in Creative Recon3Di audio, and it was very impressive, but the recording side was very much poopy. Playback, on the other hand, was nearly one of the best ever, so Creative has definitely upped their game with these new CODECs.



tribaljet said:


> Wait, cadaveca, are you using OEM drivers or UNi Xonar drivers? I'm asking because I find it curious that you're unable to get lower latency without issues, the card should be able to handle it without mush hassle.


It doesn't matter. The card itself uses a PCIe bridge chip(with error correction) that adds the latency. THe PCI version of my D2X, in fact, becuase it doesn't have this chip, is better for ASIO, but audio is inferior on the PCI version versus the PCIe, as the bridge chip's error correction works amazingly well.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Anyway, my whole point in posting is that there is no "exclusive" good brand of audio card to use. It's more about specific uses, and what you want out of the card for those uses.
> 
> I spent the last week using a motherboard with built-in Creative Recon3Di audio, and it was very impressive, but the recording side was very much poopy. Playback, on the other hand, was nearly one of the best ever, so Creative has definitely upped their game with these new CODECs.
> 
> ...



Most definitely agreed, different hardware for different usage.

Recon3D is quite awful. Specs and measurements have went down the drain, no hardware acceleration, no hardware MIDI synthesizer, no ASIO, bad base programming language used for the new software, with a bad DAC to boot. The best card Creative has is the X-Fi Titanium HD by a large margin.


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## Frederik S (Jun 18, 2012)

http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/15
http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound-blaster-xfi-titanium-hd-review/6

Where exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that the X-Fi Titanium HD is better than an STX? 
I have had both and based on headphone out and the two channel performance the the STX is audibly better. And with reasonable performing headphones the gaming experience is better than the Titanium both in terms of positioning and details. 

This is based on tests conducted in BF2, BF3, CS:S using many different headphones, and one set of studio monitors and a 2.1 set from Logitech. 

There is a lot of marketing talk surrounding many of the Creative features like CMSS3D and others, for the most part these just sound like an EQ which can be replicated on all sound cards. For both cheap and expensive headphones and speakers sets a tweaked EQ can help to elevated the positional clues above the ambient noises, further tweaking via Dolby settings also yields some improvements depending on the game.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Anyway, my whole point in posting is that there is no "exclusive" good brand of audio card to use. It's more about specific uses, and what you want out of the card for those uses.
> 
> I spent the last week using a motherboard with built-in Creative Recon3Di audio, and it was very impressive, but the recording side was very much poopy. Playback, on the other hand, was nearly one of the best ever, so Creative has definitely upped their game with these new CODECs.
> 
> ...



Most definitely agreed, different hardware for different usage.

Recon3D is quite awful. Specs and measurements have went down the drain, no hardware acceleration, no hardware MIDI synthesizer, no ASIO, bad base programming language used for the new software, with a bad DAC to boot. The best card Creative has is the X-Fi Titanium HD by a large margin.

And it's quite curious that D2X SQ is lower on the PCI version, because it's the exact opposite with the Essence ST (the PCI version of the STX) due to the crystal clock used.


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## tribaljet (Jun 18, 2012)

Frederik S said:


> http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/15
> http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound-blaster-xfi-titanium-hd-review/6
> 
> Where exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that the X-Fi Titanium HD is better than an STX?
> ...



Again, I already stated previously that I didn't bring any of the surround virtualization techs Creative (CMSS3D) and Asus have (DH), because they give sound a very articial coating. And both techs alter sound in opposite ways, CMSS3D bringing up treble, while DH brings up bass.

The Titanium HD is better than the Essence STX in gaming, by far (as in, doesn't even come close), and is on the same level in terms of SQ in general, the only thing changing being the signature.

I've used quite extensively cards from either manufacturer, and there isn't any need to get a Creative flagship to blow out of the water the Essence STX (flagship, out of comparison's sake) in terms of gaming audio performance. The X-Fi DSP simply does positional cues better, even more so when Elevation Filter and MacroFX algorithms are enabled. The difference is very significant on DS3D and OpenAL games, but even on software only renderers, there is still a smaller but yet noticeable improvement.

What's your point about most settings being able to be replicated through 3rd party hardware and/or software? The fact is that Asus cards don't offer the same gaming audio feature set and Creative does. Music and movies, on the other hand, do have similar performance on both flagships, it's just that gaming has always been an afterthought by Asus' engineers.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that objective and subjective reviewing don't always match, although ABX testing tends to produce rather interesting results.


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## Nordic (Jun 19, 2012)

Thank you cadaveva and fredrick for the alternate opinions. It is nice to hear.

I did purchase yesturday the asus xonar dg and, jvc rx700. For $55 not bad, and the xonar dg has a $10 rebate I hope to use. I am thinking of this like baby steps, if I like it, I will bump myself up in the future to a better soundcard. I will then put the dg to use elsewhere.

Please keep going with your discussion, I still don't know which way I will go in the future soundcards.


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## Ra97oR (Jun 19, 2012)

Frederik S said:


> http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/15
> http://www.guru3d.com/article/sound-blaster-xfi-titanium-hd-review/6
> 
> Where exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that the X-Fi Titanium HD is better than an STX?
> ...



I am with Frederik here. I used to have many X-Fi cards and in game, both my STAX SR-404LE and Audio Technica AD1000PRM perform noticeablly better on the Essence without any virtual surround enabled. I do note that the CMSS3D is sometimes less over the top than some Dolby Surround settings, but at a cost of not being customizable. 

In general virtual surround used on good open back headphones can often sound hollow, in game it can create a easier to pick up sound field for general direction picking. But without virtual surround sound, I can nearly aim just by sound as it is no where as defused.


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## tribaljet (Jun 19, 2012)

Ra97oR said:


> I am with Frederik here. I used to have many X-Fi cards and in game, both my STAX SR-404LE and Audio Technica AD1000PRM perform noticeablly better on the Essence without any virtual surround enabled. I do note that the CMSS3D is sometimes less over the top than some Dolby Surround settings, but at a cost of not being customizable.
> 
> In general virtual surround used on good open back headphones can often sound hollow, in game it can create a easier to pick up sound field for general direction picking. But without virtual surround sound, I can nearly aim just by sound as it is no where as defused.



Usually, STAX wearing people do prefer neutral/brighter signatures, so it's no surprise you prefer the Essence ST/STX.

I'm a bit puzzled at how you find CMSS3D not customizable, considering DH only has an on-off switch with simple static presets, while CMSS3D can be enabled and disabled, as well as having adjustment strength up to 0.1dB sensitivity.

It's quite curious how some people find virtual surround techs essential for better positional cue accuracy. I honestly find that if the source, end gear and content all perform properly, that will be enough to give the player a 3D sound map, rather than a flat 2D map by default or a twisted 3D map due to virtual surround.


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## Frederik S (Jun 19, 2012)

You two are saying the exact same thing. With proper gear CMSS3D and other vitual surround algorithms distort more than they help.


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## tribaljet (Jun 19, 2012)

Frederik S said:


> You two are saying the exact same thing. With proper gear CMSS3D and other vitual surround algorithms distort more than they help.



I had already made that clearly on my first post. Although, I do respect people's preferences in that some opt to sacrifice audio fidelity for an artificially (read, degraded) altered soundstage.


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## Nordic (Jun 21, 2012)

tribaljet said:


> You won't be disappointed with the setup. Just don't raise expectations too much, as untrained ears + entry level gear don't translate into mindblown aural experiences (at least in the first listening sessions).



So I got the asus dg with jvc rx700's. I would have to say my mind is near blown. I am surprised things sound A LOT better. This is low end audio, I can't imagine high end audio. I am hearing things I didn't know were there in my games and music. I hope there is very little pseudo effect happening as I have only played with this for an hour. I am sold on pc audio from this point on.

The headphones with onboard audio did sound better some. When I put the soundcard in and the head, and started listening everything sounded ok but worse. Then I started playing with the drivers settings. I told it 8 channel audio, from 2, and boom. Things only got better as I changed the sample rate up. 

So can I get some help with audio settings?

I currently have it set to:
8 channels
Sample rate to pcm 96 khz
HP advanced settings(amplifier) to 32~64OHMS
Dolby headphone on
7.1 Virtual speaker on


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## tribaljet (Jun 21, 2012)

The whole "hearing things I didn't know were there" is quite common, always amusing to see as people do listen to higher fidelity sound when compared to their previous gear 

For music, you should set the output to 2 channels, and sample rate set at a setting that matches the content format, as in music at 44.1KHz should be played back at 44.1KHz, not higher to prevent resampling, which usually isn't something desirable.

You have to understand that higher sampling rates don't translate into higher quality when playing back content with a lower sampling rate than what you have set on your output device, and on some cases can actually lower the overall sound quality.

I personally recommend you to disable all that virtual surround fluff, like Dolby Headphone (DH) and 7.1 Virtual Speaker, and set 2 channel output if you're using your soundcard with headphones. But like it was discussed previously, virtual surround processing can be a matter of taste, but the fact is that such features lower the sound quality in exchange for an altered soundstage.

In terms of games, it gets more complicated, as there are different setups for different game audio engines, as well as config combinations. You should first research on whether a game supports 2.0, 4.0, 5.1 or 7.1 output. For instance, on a game that supports 5.1, can either set 2 channels with both DH and Virtual Speaker disabled, or set it to 6 channels with both DH and Virtual Speaker enabled. You really have to experiment. And more importantly, there isn't a single set of configs that works for everything in an optimal way.


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