# ASUS GeForce RTX 4070 Ti TUF



## W1zzard (Jan 4, 2023)

The ASUS TUF GeForce RTX 4070 Ti is a factory overclocked custom-design variant of NVIDIA's new release. Performance is impressive, the card can beat last generation's RTX 3090 Ti flagship, with almost double the energy efficiency and much lower heat and noise.

*Show full review*


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## Chaitanya (Jan 4, 2023)

So barely matches 3090, I really hope nGreedia are dragged down for misleading claims.


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## Dristun (Jan 4, 2023)

Three times faster, huh?


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## Gucky (Jan 4, 2023)

Chaitanya said:


> So barely matches 3090, I really hope nGreedia are dragged down for misleading claims.


Time to put on glasses.

Yes Nvidia, same as AMD shouldn't use the best case and say it does X times performance.
And the Game that brings that performance isn't even available. There is no public CP2077 with Overdrive, which seem to benefit greatly from DLSS3.


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## usiname (Jan 4, 2023)

10% slower than 3090ti/7900xt, 15% faster than 3080 for 16% more and the cherry on the cake, 500gb/s, 560 overclocked, just same as my OC 3070   . It is bandwidth starving now in 4k, In few years this card will be even worse in the new games with such slow memory


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## Timbaloo (Jan 4, 2023)

@W1zzard The numbers of the Control benchmark in the "Raytracing & DLSS" section shows the same values for "Raytracing" and "DLSS" (with Raytracing). Am i missing something?


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## AnotherReader (Jan 4, 2023)

Given its price, I was expecting it to be slower than the 7900 XT. Still, given that it's as fast as the 3090, it will sell well, and put pressure on AMD to lower the price of the 7900 XT.


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## Pumper (Jan 4, 2023)

Did not look at the review yet, but all the posted reviews are of cards priced above the MSRP - does that even exist in the real world?


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## W1zzard (Jan 4, 2023)

Timbaloo said:


> @W1zzard The numbers of the Control benchmark in the "Raytracing & DLSS" section shows the same values for "Raytracing" and "DLSS" (with Raytracing). Am i missing something?


Yeah, look for the longer bar with DLSS enabled in the same chart.. for some reason they didnt get highlighted and I'm on holiday in Egypt right now


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## the54thvoid (Jan 4, 2023)

Welp.

The gap between the 4070ti and the 3070ti is the same as that between the 3070ti and the 2070 super (70%/100%). So, it's on par with previous increases. But, once we see pricing, this will be a tremendously more expensive uplift compared to all past generations of x070 cards. No surprise.


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## W1zzard (Jan 4, 2023)

Pumper said:


> Did not look at the review yet, but all the posted reviews are of cards priced above the MSRP - does that even exist in the real world?


Vendors only sampled OC versions afaik. non-OC cards should exist. I'll be buying one so I have baseline performance for future reviews


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## Timbaloo (Jan 4, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Yeah, look for the longer bar with DLSS enabled in the same chart.. for some reason they didnt get highlighted and I'm on holiday in Egypt right now


Alright, now i get it 

Happy holiday!


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## AnotherReader (Jan 4, 2023)

Enjoy your holiday, @W1zzard . Thanks for the review. I love the new chart showing cooler performance by memory temperature:


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## heflys20 (Jan 4, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> Welp.
> 
> The gap between the 4070ti and the 3070ti is the same as that between the 3070ti and the 2070 super (70%/100%). So, it's on par with previous increases. But, once we see pricing, this will be a tremendously more expensive uplift compared to all past generations of x070 cards. No surprise.


I imagine, in a couple of weeks, it'll likely be more expensive than the 7900xt.


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## the54thvoid (Jan 4, 2023)

@W1zzard - you make a point saying it is good value considering the state of the market. I think it's clear to most readers that the cost/performance state of the graphics card market shouldn't be supported at all, in which case, it's fair to say that this card is still hugely overpriced, *as they all are* (AMD and NV) based on past 'normative' generations outside the influence of mining (and the resultant scalping).


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## defaultluser (Jan 4, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> Welp.
> 
> The gap between the 4070ti and the 3070ti is the same as that between the 3070ti and the 2070 super (70%/100%). So, it's on par with previous increases. But, once we see pricing, this will be a tremendously more expensive uplift compared to all past generations of x070 cards. No surprise.




yeah, i wouldn't worry about that part either: as AMD adds more lineup , they will launch with similar price -pressure to what produced this $200 price-drop on launch day!


The other side of the equation: as-long-as lock-downs in china and war in Ukraine keeps draining mind-share, the rest of your prices will remain slightly higher.
.


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## The Quim Reaper (Jan 4, 2023)

Lol..and the Nvidia shill show continues apace at Techpowerup.

Do you people EVER give anything other than bland, sitting on the fence verdicts to anything you review?

Are you really that scared of the flow of 'free stuff' drying up.


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## mechtech (Jan 4, 2023)

Whats with Borderlands 3 bench?  It is majorly cpu limited?  Why?  The game engine?


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## mb194dc (Jan 4, 2023)

Chaitanya said:


> So barely matches 3090, I really hope nGreedia are dragged down for misleading claims.



Just don't buy it. Pretty sure that is what will happen anyway with what's going on in the world generally.


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## AnotherReader (Jan 4, 2023)

On a side note, I don't like this trend of oversized coolers for cards with relatively modest power draw.


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## LFaWolf (Jan 4, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Vendors only sampled OC versions afaik. non-OC cards should exist. I'll be buying one so I have baseline performance for future reviews


So does that mean there is no Founders Edition of the 4070ti?


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## loregnum (Jan 4, 2023)

And as expected, "editor's choice"

I swear, one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090 and it'd still get an editor's choice. I mean just look at the Asus Strix 4080 review here that got that when it almost costs the same as a FE and AIB base 4090!

Have some damn integrity and call out this current dumpster fire of a gpu market instead of worrying about ruffling some Nvidia and AMD feathers. How come Hardware Unboxed, Gamers Nexus, and numerous other sites can call it like it is but here it's always the lame "editor's choice" conclusion? It's bad when even one of the mods here indirectly implies the conclusion is wonky.

Also, why is the 4090 listed at $2400? Pretty much every day there are restocks at the major online sites for the regular prices of the cards. By listing it at $2100, it gives any unsuspecting viewer the impression that somehow they can't ever find one at MSRP and it is horrible value compared to the rest of this gen when in reality it is probably the best "value" of all these overpriced cards. It feels like this is done simply to try and make all these other cards seem like they aren't as overpriced as they actually are.

TPU has great gpu reviews when it comes to the stats/data but the conclusions and "editor's choice" stuff really sucks as it reeks of shilling and I am positive most viewers feel the same as me and The Quim Reaper even if they won't admit it for fear of ruffling some TPU feathers.

Why is having some integrity such a rare thing these days?


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## Chaitanya (Jan 4, 2023)

mb194dc said:


> Just don't buy it. Pretty sure that is what will happen anyway with what's going on in the world generally.


Wont buy either 30 or 40 series(equivalent AMD GPUs as well), got good deal on used 2080(within friend circle who upgraded to workstation class RTX)(paid roughly $250), for my workload(Helicon) so I am good another 1-2 years with 2080.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 4, 2023)

Wow, there are a LOT of people that are big mad about this card apparently. a GPU that meets the performance of a xx9x tier card for $800 isntead of $1600/2000 seems a pretty good deal on its face. 


Chaitanya said:


> So barely matches 3090, I really hope nGreedia are dragged down for misleading claims.





usiname said:


> 10% slower than 3090ti/7900xt, 15% faster than 3080 for 16% more and the cherry on the cake, 500gb/s, 560 overclocked, just same as my OC 3070   . It is bandwidth starving now in 4k, In few years this card will be even worse in the new games with such slow memory


So am I the only one that noticed the 4070ti is as fast/faster at 1080p/1440p then the 3090ti? Surely I'm not the only one, right?


the54thvoid said:


> Welp.
> 
> The gap between the 4070ti and the 3070ti is the same as that between the 3070ti and the 2070 super (70%/100%). So, it's on par with previous increases. But, once we see pricing, this will be a tremendously more expensive uplift compared to all past generations of x070 cards. No surprise.


It's pricy, the cost of everything is high now. Welcome to hyperinflation, enjoy your stay. 

Almost like the world's money supply increased by 50% in 18 months recently.........


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## heflys20 (Jan 4, 2023)

It just shows how horrendously priced the 3090ti was when it came out.


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## LFaWolf (Jan 4, 2023)

Compared to 3070ti in 1440p, it is 31% faster, and costs ($800-$600)/$600=33% more. Note I am using the founders edition MSRP.


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## Mistral (Jan 4, 2023)

Very good efficiency. Hopefully this lowers the price of the 7900XT and 4800 a bit too.


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## bug (Jan 4, 2023)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Wow, there are a LOT of people that are big mad about this card apparently. a GPU that meets the performance of a xx9x tier card for $800 isntead of $1600/2000 seems a pretty good deal on its face.


And at about half the power draw.


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## Dracius (Jan 4, 2023)

loregnum said:


> And as expected, "editor's choice"
> 
> I swear, one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090 and it'd still get an editor's choice. I mean just look at the Asus Strix 4080 review here that got that when it almost costs the same as a FE and AIB base 4090!
> 
> ...


100% agreed.

Every 4070ti review released today has an editors choice award. (Besides the gigabyte model, which has a "highly recommended")

Love your pictures and FPS graphing content, but eish... The above is super obvious.


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## yeeeeman (Jan 4, 2023)

decent card priced badly. i also do not understand how these cards eat 300W at 295mm^2 GPU. This means that either the GPU is pushed too high frequency wise or the memory is getting inefficient. Or both. I could bet that this is a 100W GPU at 1500mhz.
I guess, given the rising silicon prices, companies nowadays try to maximize what a small GPU can do, hence run it outside of its efficiency zone, to hit the performance target of an otherwise bigger GPU that runs at slower but more efficient frequencies. This GPU looks like an RTX 4060 class GPU that is OC-ed to hit 4070-4080 class performance with the added downside of higher power consumption.


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## bug (Jan 4, 2023)

loregnum said:


> And as expected, "editor's choice"
> 
> I swear, one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090 and it'd still get an editor's choice. I mean just look at the Asus Strix 4080 review here that got that when it almost costs the same as a FE and AIB base 4090!
> 
> ...


We've had this discussion before. Basically, as long as a product works as advertised (and doesn't short or otherwise blow-up), it will get an award. I've stopped paying attention to those badges years ago.


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## Crackong (Jan 4, 2023)

> 3x performance vs 3090Ti



Clearly 3 = 1


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## ARF (Jan 4, 2023)

loregnum said:


> one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090



The thing is that 4090 costs $2.1-2.2-2.3K but given the much worsened economic condition of the large majority of users and lower purchase power, then 4090 already costs $5K normalised to those !


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## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 4, 2023)

bug said:


> And at about half the power draw.


TSMC 4nm is godly efficient compared to samsung 8nm. Mobile RTX 4000 cards are going to be ballin'.


yeeeeman said:


> decent card priced badly. i also do not understand how these cards eat 300W at 295mm^2 GPU. This means that either the GPU is pushed too high frequency wise or the memory is getting inefficient. Or both. I could bet that this is a 100W GPU at 1500mhz.
> I guess, given the rising silicon prices, companies nowadays try to maximize what a small GPU can do, hence run it outside of its efficiency zone, to hit the performance target of an otherwise bigger GPU that runs at slower but more efficient frequencies. This GPU looks like an RTX 4060 class GPU that is OC-ed to hit 4070-4080 class performance with the added downside of higher power consumption.


Simple, old nodes were clock limited while newer nodes are thermally limited. Those old GPUs didnt clock out of their efficiency range because it was hard to make them do so in a stable, sellable manner. 

Same reason older GPU generations topped out at ~150 watt, then ~200 watt. Not because we liked low power ore, but because that was the limit of what could be made on those nodes and still be profitable.


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## ARF (Jan 4, 2023)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Wow, there are a LOT of people that are big mad about this card apparently. a GPU that meets the performance of a xx9x tier card for $800 isntead of $1600/2000 seems a pretty good deal on its face.



That's not how it works. If you change the figures for $500 and $1000, it would be perfectly understandable. Otherwise, you simply justify the company greed.

How Nvidia tricked everyone into buying a $1,600 GPU | Digital Trends


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## the54thvoid (Jan 4, 2023)

> *What the PC Gaming market needs are more affordable graphics card*s, and the 4070 Ti seems to be priced a notch too high, making people delay their upgrade. The market screams for reasonable performing sub-500 USD products



What Guru3D says. Loves the card but isn't shying away from the dire price position.


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## bug (Jan 4, 2023)

ARF said:


> That's not how it works. If you change the figures for $500 and $1000, it would be perfectly understandable. Otherwise, you simply justify the company greed.
> 
> How Nvidia tricked everyone into buying a $1,600 GPU | Digital Trends


That's exactly how it works: the performance you could buy last year for $1,600, you can buy now for half.


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## Pumper (Jan 4, 2023)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Almost like the world's money supply increased by 50% in 18 months recently.........


Did not get a penny out of that, so I'll keep complaining. Thanks.


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## ThrashZone (Jan 4, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Vendors only sampled OC versions afaik. non-OC cards should exist. I'll be buying one so I have baseline performance for future reviews


Hi,
Yeah you can compare the coil whine


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## uber_m0j0 (Jan 4, 2023)

loregnum said:


> And as expected, "editor's choice"
> 
> I swear, one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090 and it'd still get an editor's choice. I mean just look at the Asus Strix 4080 review here that got that when it almost costs the same as a FE and AIB base 4090!
> 
> ...


The 80 and 90 are both great cards, seriously. Money aside, they perform fantastic. I'm currently saving for a 4090, yeah I agree the price sucks. But I like that killer performance and I honestly enjoy the eye candy RT brings. I don't understand why everyone hates on the 40 series, aside from price. That's it right? The price? If these cards were all $300-400 less, would people still be angry and trying to burn down the internet over it?

All the youtube folk seem to forget their first reviews of the products. How much generational uplift, the power efficiency. They just jumped on the whiny price bandwagon after that started to trend. 

Three card launches now that outperform the 3090/3090ti. It's an expensive product! Yes, we all get it. But to ignore all the actual tech upgrades because of an emotional response to price, is silly.


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## Lovec1990 (Jan 4, 2023)

so 4070 Ti better RT performance and lower power usage than 7900XT but if you do not care about power usage and RT 7900XT is better


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## Parn (Jan 4, 2023)

x70/x70 Ti class used to be a $500 card. With the same amount increase in performance per generation compared to 30/20/10 series, how could nvidia justify the massive $300 uplift in price? Even with increasing cost in production (or pretty much everything atm), the new price still doesn't make sense.


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## vmarv (Jan 4, 2023)

Techgage did a review of the 4070 TI, testing the card in rendering and video/image editing. It's ahead of the 3090 most of the time and very close to the 4080 and 4090.
NVIDIA intentionally gimped it with the 192bit bus, otherwise this thing would fly, increasing the distance from the 3090.
Too bad I'd need to sell a kidney to buy one.


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## AnotherReader (Jan 4, 2023)

uber_m0j0 said:


> Three card launches now that outperform the 3090/3090ti. It's an expensive product! Yes, we all get it. But to ignore all the actual tech upgrades because of an emotional response to price, is silly.


Nobody is denying that Ada is great, but you can't dismiss critiques of it by claiming that harping on about price is emotional. Would you say the same if the prices were doubled?


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## Taisho (Jan 4, 2023)

The improvements in test methodology over the last months are simply amazing. Noise AND power draw matching for the temperature measurements made my day.


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## Luminescent (Jan 4, 2023)

Maybe this outrageous pricing and obvious bad reviews that they knew it would come is *INTENIONAL.*
What if this was planed all along to get rid of old stock, old Nvidia cards never looked so good, the peasants have no choice but to buy older Nvidia cards if they want a good deal.
Good job Nvidia, they are even more devious than Intel, they fu...k you and you don't even know it.


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## the54thvoid (Jan 4, 2023)

uber_m0j0 said:


> The 80 and 90 are both great cards, seriously. Money aside, they perform fantastic. I'm currently saving for a 4090, yeah I agree the price sucks. But I like that killer performance and I honestly enjoy the eye candy RT brings. I don't understand why everyone hates on the 40 series, aside from price. That's it right? The price? If these cards were all $300-400 less, would people still be angry and trying to burn down the internet over it?
> 
> All the youtube folk seem to forget their first reviews of the products. How much generational uplift, the power efficiency. They just jumped on the whiny price bandwagon after that started to trend.
> 
> Three card launches now that outperform the 3090/3090ti. It's an expensive product! Yes, we all get it. But to ignore all the actual tech upgrades because of an emotional response to price, is silly.



It also outperforms the RTX3080. By about 22%. 

Why is nobody using the RTX3080 as a comparison (especially when this was initially being released as a 4080 12GB)? I'll tell you why, because at current pricing it is 30% more expensive for only 22% more performance (less at 4k).

It's incredible that Nvidia are being given a 'get out of jail free card' by some people for what they were going to pull (and initially at $100 more just on product name alone) until they realised they were pushing the profit margins so hard that their bluff was being called. They backed down and effectively sent stickers to the AIB's to make new boxes for the rebadge.

*I think the card is fantastic* - it consumes less power than my 2080ti and is far superior and quieter. But it's not *good value* for what it is (and this is not an emotional discussion). Performance is meaningless without price context; arguments to the contrary are delusional. This is Nvidia's 70-class card. It's at a higher price than every single x080 (non ti card). That's not right and Nvidia knows it.

Again, AMD's 7900XT is also crazy priced. There's no defence for that card either.


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## crimina| (Jan 4, 2023)

The memory bus sure limits this card at 4k.


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## dick_cheney (Jan 4, 2023)

AnotherReader said:


> Nobody is denying that Ada is great, but you can't dismiss critiques of it by claiming that harping on about price is emotional. Would you say the same if the costs were doubled?


Right, imagine if since the TNT days prices increased 40%+ every generation. Die prices, R&D, and inflation are nowhere near these price increases. Anyone who claims these price increases are anything but Nvidia's greed due to them wanting to normalize crypto mining pricing is lying. 

people not voting with their wallets isn't helping either.


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## Fasola (Jan 4, 2023)

A card so good it deserves at least 3x the number of Editor's Choice badges, just like Nvidia's numbers.


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## AnotherReader (Jan 4, 2023)

I see a lot of apologists for Nvidia's high pricing. Let's consider the 4070 Ti and the 6800 XT. I picked the 6800 XT, because its die should cost the same even accounting for the node price increases. AMD also has fewer unit sales to amortize their R&D costs, but let's ignore that. The 6800 XT also has more RAM, and still it cost $649 in late 2020.


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## b1k3rdude (Jan 4, 2023)

Dristun said:


> Three times faster, huh?
> View attachment 277487


Indeed, what complete and utter c***s nVidia must think we, their customers are.

Its barely faster than my 3080_12GB, that I paid £610 for, so by the current bullshit metric the card should cost no more than £700, but in actuallity more like £500-600.

As we say in London, jog the f*** on mate.


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## jsfitz54 (Jan 4, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> and I'm on holiday in Egypt right now



Have your baksheesh ready!
​


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## Argyr (Jan 4, 2023)

uber_m0j0 said:


> The 80 and 90 are both great cards, seriously. Money aside, they perform fantastic. I'm currently saving for a 4090, yeah I agree the price sucks. But I like that killer performance and I honestly enjoy the eye candy RT brings. I don't understand why everyone hates on the 40 series, aside from price. That's it right? The price? If these cards were all $300-400 less, would people still be angry and trying to burn down the internet over it?
> 
> All the youtube folk seem to forget their first reviews of the products. How much generational uplift, the power efficiency. They just jumped on the whiny price bandwagon after that started to trend.
> 
> Three card launches now that outperform the 3090/3090ti. It's an expensive product! Yes, we all get it. But to ignore all the actual tech upgrades because of an emotional response to price, is silly.


I'll tell you the cold hard truth. PC nerds were much cooler in the 90's. easy going, happy, not judgemental just enjoying that beautiful decade of simple things. Then internet came, and the old nerds became fathers, left the hobby to some extent and zoomers took their place. Zoomers make up today's PC scene, and they love shiny RGB, tiny keyboards and weeb stuff. Zoomers are extremely loud, whiny, obnoxious, cynical, unhappy and manipulative. It's not entirely their fault, social media created this monster. Growing up in the early 2000's created this monster.

Zoomers love to complain, it's the snowflake effect. Western zoomers don't really know how the economy works, due to horrible education, and their very own disinterest. They maintain semi-communistic views and demand free or cheap shit. I could go on, but this very loud generation was able to change hardware journalism and even the manufacturers themselves, to some extent. They are catering to the snowflake generation, but the only thing they don't give them is cheap or free shit.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Jan 4, 2023)

My best guess is that they’d much rather sell fewer cards at higher margins, as they also have to defend the pricing on unsold 3000 cards since the GPU mining bust and recession. I bet they would have rather not launched these cards at all, but the development cycle was already well in motion, hence the naming pivot. They probably would have even launched it as the 4080 12GB and priced it accordingly had the cards still been flying off the shelves.


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## skates (Jan 4, 2023)

loregnum said:


> And as expected, "editor's choice"
> 
> I swear, one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090 and it'd still get an editor's choice. I mean just look at the Asus Strix 4080 review here that got that when it almost costs the same as a FE and AIB base 4090!
> 
> ...


I agree completely.  This site provides great reviews for data, for example PSU reviews and the data for GPUs is good as well, however that all goes out the window when these GPUs are given highly recommended or editor's choice and makes me wonder the value of the other reviews.  Still a great site, but I really wish they would stop shilling and become a valued influencer rather than what they are doing today.



the54thvoid said:


> It also outperforms the RTX3080. By about 22%.
> 
> Why is nobody using the RTX3080 as a comparison (especially when this was initially being released as a 4080 12GB)? I'll tell you why, because at current pricing it is 30% more expensive for only 22% more performance (less at 4k).
> 
> ...


I agree completely.  The power consumption is very good and that is what stood out for me.  Like you said, performance is meaningless without price context and yes, this is just not a good value and these reviews are marginalizing the 'value', otherwise they would not be awarded editor's choice.


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## ARF (Jan 4, 2023)

bug said:


> That's exactly how it works: the performance you could buy last year for $1,600, you can buy now for half.



The performance review is fake. Wait some months when next-gen games are launched and this 12 GB VRAM will bottleneck the card, 24 GB is in another league and you have no right to compare oranges to apples.


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## Pumper (Jan 4, 2023)

ARF said:


> The performance review is fake. Wait some months when next-gen games are launched and this 12 GB VRAM will bottleneck the card, 24 GB is in another league and you have no right to compare oranges to apples.


No need to wait. The memory is already tanking 4070Ti performance, just look at 1080p vs 4k numbers:
- 1080p 3090Ti 4% slower
- 4k  3090Ti is 10% faster


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## TheDeeGee (Jan 4, 2023)

I see now why the PNY model is cooling so well, ASUS really cheaped out on the actual heatsink, it's surrounded by a truckload of emtpyness and a plastic shell to look beefy.

The PNY card is all heatsink.


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## Lovec1990 (Jan 4, 2023)

Pumper said:


> No need to wait. The memory is already tanking 4070Ti performance, just look at 1080p vs 4k numbers:
> - 1080p 3090Ti 4% slower
> - 4k  3090Ti is 10% faster



wouldnt direct storage also put strain on memory?


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## ThrashZone (Jan 4, 2023)

bug said:


> That's exactly how it works: the performance you could buy last year for $1,600, you can buy now for half.


Hi,
Miners screwed that system up big time !

20-30 series were both completely over priced by scalpers "30 especially" that bought them all up so 40 series may seem like a great performance/ price deal but it really isn't
Just the poor sells of 4080 at 1200.us is a better measure because 1200.us is a freaking joke

Just because 4070ti FE is 800.us doesn't mean it's a good deal either this is where the 4080 should be with taxes/ 900.us tops for an FE


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## BSim500 (Jan 4, 2023)

Argyr said:


> I'll tell you the cold hard truth. PC nerds were much cooler in the 90's.


Probably because we had actual competition back then (3dfx, ATI, Hercules, Matrox, nVidia, Number Nine, Rendition, Oak, S3, Trident, Tseng Labs, etc), beyond today's mere pretence of being anything other than a duopoly.


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## Darmok N Jalad (Jan 4, 2023)

BSim500 said:


> Probably because we had actual competition back then (3dfx, ATI, Hercules, Matrox, nVidia, Number Nine, Rendition, Oak, S3, Trident, Tseng Labs, etc), beyond today's mere pretence of being anything other than a duopoly.


To be fair, some of those companies never made a decent GPU for gaming.  When 3DFX was bought out, it was a sad day indeed, but I think they did themselves in. I still remember being on the fence between the ATI Rage 32mb or Voodoo 3000 (went with the latter and ran Quake II in glide). My first dedicated GPU was the S3 Virge, which was nicknamed the “decelerator.” Still have fond memories of my Kyro II, which I think was another company NVIDIA gobbled up.


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## ARF (Jan 4, 2023)

Pumper said:


> No need to wait. The memory is already tanking 4070Ti performance, just look at 1080p vs 4k numbers:
> - 1080p 3090Ti 4% slower
> - 4k  3090Ti is 10% faster



I want to see an analysis about the image quality to sustain those RTX 4070 Ti FPS numbers. Including a detailed description of what happens on an nvidia driver level


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## N3M3515 (Jan 4, 2023)

Compared to 3070 Ti - 40% increase in performance, for 40% increase in price. WTF?



loregnum said:


> I swear, one of these two companies could release a card for $5k that is 5% faster than the 4090 and it'd still get an editor's choice.


I have come to the conclusion that:
1. Either he does not include price in his calculations for the conclusion(don't know why), or
2. He thinks price is irrelevant, only performance increase matters(even if the increase in price is higher than the increase in performance).



the54thvoid said:


> @W1zzard - you make a point saying it is good value considering the state of the market. I think *it's clear to most readers that the cost/performance state of the graphics card market shouldn't be supported at all*, in which case, *it's fair to say that this card is still hugely overpriced*


Couldn't have wrote it better.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 4, 2023)

yeeeeman said:


> decent card priced badly. i also do not understand how these cards eat 300W at 295mm^2 GPU. This means that either the GPU is pushed too high frequency wise or the memory is getting inefficient. Or both. I could bet that this is a 100W GPU at 1500mhz.
> I guess, given the rising silicon prices, companies nowadays try to maximize what a small GPU can do, hence run it outside of its efficiency zone, to hit the performance target of an otherwise bigger GPU that runs at slower but more efficient frequencies. This GPU looks like an RTX 4060 class GPU that is OC-ed to hit 4070-4080 class performance with the added downside of higher power consumption.


MSRP for the RTX 3090 Ti is $2000 USD. It's simple math.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 4, 2023)

loregnum said:


> TPU has great gpu reviews when it comes to the stats/data but the conclusions


It's like the number 1 site for that



TheinsanegamerN said:


> It's pricy, the cost of everything is high now. Welcome to hyperinflation, enjoy your stay.


Can you show me an example of some other piece of hardware or anything that increased in price +71% gen over gen?
Because inflation is worldwide, but nothing i have seen from cars, to food, to electronics has increased more than 20%


----------



## b1k3rdude (Jan 4, 2023)

Gucky said:


> There is no public CP2077 with Overdrive, which seem to benefit greatly from DLSS3.


The point that everone is skilling over is frame generation (FG), is fake performance. And this 'fake performance' only fits its "use case" works when the fps is over the 100hz mark, so in other words on a 4070Ti, 4k & FG isnt an option for most games with RT off let alone with it on.



Why_Me said:


> MSRP for the RTX 3090 Ti is $2000 USD. It's simple math.


Its hasent been at that price for a while now, so its not simple nor correct.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 4, 2023)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> a GPU that meets the performance of a xx9x tier card for $800 isntead of $1600/2000


The RTX 3070 launched at $500 and was on par with the best of the previous gen rtx 2080 ti.
Now the replacement for that, the rtx 4070 would be behind even the rtx 3090 which was last gen second best, and that's being optimistic.

Do you understand?


----------



## Avro Arrow (Jan 4, 2023)

This card is actually a considerably better value than the RX 7900 XT.  Now, I realise that this is a VERY low bar we're setting but... there is a silver lining to all of this.  A lot of people mindlessly reach for nVidia if the price is the same (which is usually a mistake but whatever), let alone when the price is lower (performance be damned in most cases) and nVidia cards are much worse values than their Radeon counterparts 99.99% of the time.

Well, WELCOME TO THE 0.01% OF THE TIME!  And to be honest, I'm finding it to be just GLORIOUS!  Not because I want nVidia to do well, quite the contrary actually (I do hate that company after all), but because at $800, AMD will have to drop the price of the RX 7900 XT to $700 if they hope to sell ANY of them going forward.  Of course, that will push the price of (what I can only assume will be) the RX 7800 XT down to near the $550 that I expected it to be.  I estimated that based on the fact that the MSRP of the RX 7900 XTX is $100 below the MSRP of the RX 6950 XT and the MSRP of the RX 7900 XT is $100 below that of the RX 6900 XT.  Using that logic, I expected the RX 7800 XT to be $100 below the MSRP of the RX 6800 XT which would be $550.  People have to remember that there was a $350 MSRP increase between the RX 6900 XT and the RX 6800 XT.  AMD even said (not in so many words) that the RX 6900 XT wasn't worth buying but people bought it anyway because, at the time, any card you could get was worth it.

So, it looks like the RX 7900 XT will fall to $700 and I expect the rest of the lineup to look like this:
RX 7800 XT - $550 
RX 7800 - $500 
RX 7700 XT - $450 
RX 7700 - $400 
RX 7600 XT - $350
RX 7600 - $300
RX 7500 XT - $250
RX 7500 - $200

In this new generation, I expect that they'll be at similar performance levels of the previous generation's higher tier but with far less negative impact from RT being turned on.  That's not exactly great but it's not exactly terrible either, especially considering that the previous-gen cards of both red and green are still wickedly fast because hardware has outpaced software dramatically.  This will mean that the RX 7500 will have similar performance to the RX 6600 and decent 1080p gaming will be attainable for everyone again.  I seriously doubt that AMD will repeat the same debacle that was the RX 6500 XT (I still can't understand why they called it an XT) and if there is a level-5 card, it won't be based on a mobile GPU.

Perhaps most importantly, Radeons will have pricing that will be very reminiscent of the RX 5000-series.  Sure, the RX 7700 XT will be $50 more than the RX 5700 XT but it's a big step in the right direction and a 12.5% price increase over what will be a near 4-year span with the pandemic and inflation being involved is far more reasonable than what we've been seeing thus far.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 4, 2023)

bug said:


> That's exactly how it works: the performance you could buy last year for $1,600, you can buy now for half.


Funny how you don't mention the 3080 that was within 90% of the "$1600 gpu" and launched at $700 LOL, so you could get $1600 worth of performance for $700!! TWO years ago!



the54thvoid said:


> Why is nobody using the RTX3080 as a comparison (especially when this was initially being released as a 4080 12GB)? I'll tell you why, because at current pricing it is 30% more expensive for only 22% more performance (less at 4k).
> 
> It's incredible that Nvidia are being given a 'get out of jail free card' by some people for what they were going to pull (and initially at $100 more just on product name alone) until they realised they were pushing the profit margins so hard that their bluff was being called. They backed down and effectively sent stickers to the AIB's to make new boxes for the rebadge.
> 
> ...


Spitting facts!


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 4, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> MSRP for the RTX 3090 Ti is $2000 USD. It's *simple* math.



It's actually *selective* math. Comparing a card with the previous generation is fine but what should be happening is comparing it against the cost of the previous gen of the* same model*. Halo cards are always ludicrously priced. *And Halo cards are always beaten by the next gen's top cards*. Using the abnormal price of the 3090ti is unrealistic when the 4070ti should be compared against the 3070ti, or at most, the 3080, both of which were released at a far more reasonable consumer price point.

You want to compare the 3090ti? Then do so against the 4090, in which case, yeah - the halo card is great value against the last gen halo.


----------



## heflys20 (Jan 4, 2023)

I'm not sure why this card performing on the level of the 3090ti is considered some impressive metric. That card always had atrocious price/performance. It was barely faster (at 1080/1440) than some of the competing cards at the time, yet, somehow, about $1000 more. The 4090 looks like a bargain  in comparison to $2000 for the 3090ti at one point.

Edit: Nevermind...Others beat me to the point.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 4, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> It's actually *selective* math. Comparing a card with the previous generation is fine but what should be happening is comparing it against the cost of the previous gen of the* same model*. Halo cards are always ludicrously priced. *And Halo cards are always beaten by the next gen's top cards*. Using the abnormal price of the 3090ti is unrealistic when the 4070ti should be compared against the 3070ti, or at most, the 3080, both of which were released at a far more reasonable consumer price point.
> 
> You want to compare the 3090ti? Then do so against the 4090, in which case, yeah - the halo card is great value against the last gen halo.


Given the choice I'll take the $800 gpu over the $2000 gpu seeing how they run dead even.  That saves me $1200.  What components can I purchase with $1200 to finish my build.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 4, 2023)

Luminescent said:


> Maybe this outrageous pricing and obvious bad reviews that they knew it would come is *INTENIONAL.*
> What if this was planed all along to get rid of old stock, old Nvidia cards never looked so good, the peasants have no choice but to buy older Nvidia cards if they want a good deal.
> Good job Nvidia, they are even more devious than Intel, they fu...k you and you don't even know it.


Absolutely, Nvidia partners are almost out of geforce 30, while amd partners are sitting on mountains of rx 6000 cards that are worthless now


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jan 4, 2023)

The poorer scaling at 4K is unsurprising; The 4080 has _*42% more*_ bandwidth. Not only is the 4070Ti's memory bus cut down to 192-bit, it's using slower VRAM too.

12GB VRAM for $840, is it 2021 again?

I'd say this was a $599 GPU in a market with healthy competition and good supply, but the competition is closer to a featherweight vs a heavyweight whilst Intel sits on the side just shouting abuse into the ring. As for the supply? China's shutting down again because of COVID.


----------



## AnotherReader (Jan 4, 2023)

Chrispy_ said:


> The poorer scaling at 4K is unsurprising; The 4080 has _*42% more*_ bandwidth. Not only is the 4070Ti's memory bus cut down to 192-bit, it's using slower VRAM too.


In addition, the smaller L2 cache has lower hit rates than the caches of the 4080 and 4090. So at 4K, the card has to rely more on the memory bus than the faster cards.


----------



## skates (Jan 4, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Compared to 3070 Ti - 40% increase in performance, for 40% increase in price. WTF?
> 
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that:
> ...


PCWorld has an actual honest review, I know, PC World, but there it is and its brutal, kudos for them, especially since they rely on affiliate links.


----------



## heflys20 (Jan 4, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Absolutely, Nvidia partners are almost out of geforce 30, while amd partners are sitting on mountains of rx 6000 cards that are worthless now


AMD' prices have been creeping up, too, I can't even find any 6800xt' that aren't scalper priced. I might catch one every now and then. Most of em are sold out.


----------



## Fluffmeister (Jan 4, 2023)

heflys20 said:


> AMD' prices have been creeping up, too, I can't even find any 6800xt' that aren't scalper priced. I might catch one every now and then. Most of em are sold out.



Yeah I noticed that too, and agree with W1zz, was looking at Scan here in the UK, what remaining high-end RTX 3000 stock are all hot sellers, whilst RX 6000 stock is plentiful and more expensive.



			https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/gpu-nvidia-gaming/3175/3176/3350/3541/3587
		




			https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/gpu-amd-gaming/3217/3218/3219/3599


----------



## heflys20 (Jan 4, 2023)

Fluffmeister said:


> Yeah I noticed that too, and agree with W1zz, was looking at Scan here in the UK, what remaining high-end RTX 3000 stock are all hot sellers, whilst RX 6000 stock is plentiful and more expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Strange...In some cases, the AMD equivalents are more expensive.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 4, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> Given the choice I'll take the $800 gpu over the $2000 gpu seeing how they run dead even.  That saves me $1200.  What components can I purchase with $1200 to finish my build.



Yeah, I agree. The 3090ti is now utterly redundant. A dead dodo. But I'll still consider a 3080 as a positive prospect. 

I wouldn't consider AMD at all at the moment. Prices need to freefall to be relevant.


----------



## Fluffmeister (Jan 4, 2023)

heflys20 said:


> Strange...In some cases, the AMD equivalents are more expensive.



Indeed, like I said I was surprised, and like it or loath it a RTX 4070 Ti around £800/850 makes every RX 6000 card from the 6800 up dead, especially at those prices.


----------



## Aretak (Jan 4, 2023)

Fluffmeister said:


> Yeah I noticed that too, and agree with W1zz, was looking at Scan here in the UK, what remaining high-end RTX 3000 stock are all hot sellers, whilst RX 6000 stock is plentiful and more expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Plentiful? There's only a handful of models left of each SKU, and some of those are refurbished. The vast majority of options seem to be unavailable. Same story at OcUK. Ebuyer are completely sold out of 6800s, 6800 XTs and 6900 XTs, with three models of 6950 XT left. Not seeing this "plentiful" stock.


----------



## Fluffmeister (Jan 4, 2023)

Aretak said:


> Plentiful? There's only a handful of models left of each SKU, and some of those are refurbished. The vast majority of options seem to be unavailable. Same story at OcUK. Ebuyer are completely sold out of 6800s, 6800 XTs and 6900 XTs, with three models of 6950 XT left. Not seeing this "plentiful" amount of stock.



Well compared to the hot selling competition it is, but hey it was just an observation... don't shoot the messenger.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 4, 2023)

Fluffmeister said:


> Indeed, like I said I was surprised, and like it or loath it a RTX 4070 Ti around £800/850 makes every RX 6000 card from the 6800 up dead, especially at those prices.


This ^^ ... not to mention the fact this card has killed off the mid to high end RTX 30XX cards as well.


----------



## lightning70 (Jan 4, 2023)

Looking at the gaming graphics most games only match the RTX 3090, but I was told that the classic performance is equivalent to the 3090 Ti? Dishonest Nvidia.









If you look carefully, it can match the RTX 3090 Ti at 1440p, but barely match the RTX 3090 at 4K. I guess low bandwidth (192 Bit) 4k also degrades performance. But it was the 3090 Ti equivalent.


----------



## N/A (Jan 4, 2023)

3080 at its worst, 3090 Ti very rarely at best. This card would have definitely made use of a 256 bit bus and 16GB is a must for this tier. and must be declared as a pure abomination at such a price. Cutting corners like that is unacceptable.


----------



## Dyatlov A (Jan 4, 2023)

Is it exist in Founders Edition version? Quite good, but i don’t think i want change my 3090 for it…


----------



## bug (Jan 4, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Funny how you don't mention the 3080 that was within 90% of the "$1600 gpu" and launched at $700 LOL, so you could get $1600 worth of performance for $700!! TWO years ago!


That's a fair point, although if I'm not mistaken, you couldn't get a 3080 at MSRP for a while after launch (which is not a certain for 4070Ti either).
And I also consider the 4070Ti price way over what I'd consider paying for a video card. I was just saying, in the grand scheme of things, it has it qualities.


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jan 4, 2023)

4070TI would have been amazing card, IF priced right = between $499 and $649. But at $799 it stands for everything that is wrong with todays dGPU market. GamersNexus is the most balanced no bullshit review of 4070TI I came across. Cudos to Steve.

*WTF NVidia? *aka *NVIDIA's Rip-Off - RTX 4070 Ti*
*







*


----------



## LuxZg (Jan 4, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> This card is actually a considerably better value than the RX 7900 XT.  Now, I realise that this is a VERY low bar we're setting but... there is a silver lining to all of this.  A lot of people mindlessly reach for nVidia if the price is the same (which is usually a mistake but whatever), let alone when the price is lower (performance be damned in most cases) and nVidia cards are much worse values than their Radeon counterparts 99.99% of the time.
> 
> Well, WELCOME TO THE 0.01% OF THE TIME!  And to be honest, I'm finding it to be just GLORIOUS!  Not because I want nVidia to do well, quite the contrary actually (I do hate that company after all), but because at $800, AMD will have to drop the price of the RX 7900 XT to $700 if they hope to sell ANY of them going forward.  Of course, that will push the price of (what I can only assume will be) the RX 7800 XT down to near the $550 that I expected it to be.  I estimated that based on the fact that the MSRP of the RX 7900 XTX is $100 below the MSRP of the RX 6950 XT and the MSRP of the RX 7900 XT is $100 below that of the RX 6900 XT.  Using that logic, I expected the RX 7800 XT to be $100 below the MSRP of the RX 6800 XT which would be $550.  People have to remember that there was a $350 MSRP increase between the RX 6900 XT and the RX 6800 XT.  AMD even said (not in so many words) that the RX 6900 XT wasn't worth buying but people bought it anyway because, at the time, any card you could get was worth it.
> 
> ...


Well, we can only hope it plays out like that. Because nothing so far is suggesting that either company plans a price war to that effect :-/ I'd be ok with 7600XT/7700 tier if it a) wouldn't arrive in 2024 and b) was priced decently (2018 style decently)


----------



## ThrashZone (Jan 4, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Compared to 3070 Ti - 40% increase in performance, for 40% increase in price. WTF?
> 
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that:
> ...


Hi,
He as in @W1zzard ?
If so "he" is well aware seeing "he" posted a poll on 4080's worth and had a news story to announce the results to his reading world 








						$700-800 Ideal Price for GeForce RTX 4080: TechPowerUp Poll Surveying 11,000 Respondents
					

The ideal price for the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4080 "Ada" graphics card is around USD $700 to $800, according to results from a recent TechPowerUp Front-page poll surveying our readers. Our poll "How much would you pay for RTX 4080 at most?" received over 11,000 responses. At the number 1 spot with...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




Honestly I don't know why the thumbs down first item is arranged like it is 



Frankly "Absolutely a big increase in price compared to last generation" or "Big increase in price compared to last generation, Absolutely" either would of read better and made more sense to us USA yanks but then again I'm not a proof reader 

Some put to much emphasis on the editors choice logo at one time I thought there were different color logo's used green good/ red bad but
The conclusion pretty much always expresses all the notes good and bad maybe sometimes "he" should show more drama on the bad


----------



## Avro Arrow (Jan 4, 2023)

LuxZg said:


> Well, we can only hope it plays out like that. Because nothing so far is suggesting that either company plans a price war to that effect :-/ I'd be ok with 7600XT/7700 tier if it a) wouldn't arrive in 2024 and b) was priced decently (2018 style decently)


Well, from what I've seen, so far, so good.  At the moment, AMD has no choice but to incite a price war for two reasons, one negative and one positive:

Negative Reason - Market Share
Last I checked, nVidia has 88% of the video card market, AMD has about 8.something% and Intel has about 3.something%.  If AMD doesn't grab more market share, Radeon might not survive at all.

Positive Reason - Chiplet Design
The chiplet design that ATi came up with means that Radeon GPUs are far less expensive to make than GeForce GPUs.  AMD can leverage that to really grab a tonne of market share back while still maintaining very healthy profit levels.  This is their chance as long as they don't blow it.

AMD could easily sell Radeons at the prices I stated and still make a craptonne of money doing it.  More importantly, it would go a long way to solidify their market position because right now, it's extremely precarious.  We know that nVidia is far too arrogant with their pricing and won't always cut their prices to keep pace with AMD.  Intel behaved exactly the same way and AMD burned them pretty badly.  Intel is FAR larger and richer than nVidia has ever been so if AMD could do it to them, they can do it to nVidia as well.  All AMD has to do is make their cards so inexpensive and so available that they become a total no-brainer.  Since nVidia makes price cuts at a snail's pace, so AMD could literally claw back up to 20% of the market in a single generation before nVidia reacts.


----------



## Bet0n (Jan 4, 2023)

The best review I've found is from Digital Foundry...  (sarcasm)



Avro Arrow said:


> Positive Reason - Chiplet Design
> The chiplet design that ATi came up with means that Radeon GPUs are far less expensive to make than GeForce GPUs.  AMD can leverage that to really grab a tonne of market share back while still maintaining very healthy profit levels.  This is their chance as long as they don't blow it.


What AMD would've gain financially with chiplets loses on chiplets. Navi31 is cheap to manufacture only if you compare it to AD102 but not against AD103 or AD104. Navi31 requires 7 chips, combined those are more expensive than either AD103 or AD104 and packaging and binning increases the price difference even more because you have to bin seven chips and the new fanout links definitely costs more than the connections on a traditional single GPU card package.
So no, AMD don't want to start a price war with Navi31 against the 4080 or the 4070 Ti for sure.
They wanted to be competitive with Navi31 at the absolute top against Nvidia and it would've worked but instead they have to compete against the smaller chips.


----------



## Space Lynx (Jan 4, 2023)

RedelZaVedno said:


> 4070TI would have been amazing card, IF priced right = between $499 and $649. But at $799 it stands for everything that is wrong with todays dGPU market. GamersNexus is the most balanced no bullshit review of 4070TI I came across. Cudos to Steve.
> 
> *WTF NVidia? *aka *NVIDIA's Rip-Off - RTX 4070 Ti*
> *
> ...




lmao, I can't stop laughing, Steve at GN has made the funniest fucking video I have ever seen. holy shit


----------



## tvshacker (Jan 4, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> Yeah, I agree. The 3090ti is now utterly redundant. A dead dodo. But I'll still consider a 3080 as a positive prospect.
> 
> I wouldn't consider AMD at all at the moment. Prices need to freefall to be relevant.


Around my parts, the cheapest 3080 costs about ~840€, if the 4070TI goes for the announced 900€ (source: Nvidia France), the 3080 seems  quite redundant as well...


----------



## Zareek (Jan 4, 2023)

I like how most of the tech media is now saying the same crap that I have been saying for the past 3 to 5 years. LTT in particular seems to agree while this is a great product, the price is unreasonable and Nvidia is slowly pricing out the average gamer. Most people are just going to buy a nice console and call it a day at this point. The trend seems to be accelerating.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jan 4, 2023)

im struggling to see the clear win given thousands of games are raster based, but them prices,  I agree  with the price horror, ,,  from everyone  too, well bar Intel?>    they're doing some cheap new gpu.


----------



## medi01 (Jan 4, 2023)

GPU more expensive than 3080:  "Big performance jump vs last generation"





Mind blown.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 4, 2023)

lightning70 said:


> Looking at the gaming graphics most games only match the RTX 3090, but I was told that the classic performance is equivalent to the 3090 Ti? Dishonest Nvidia.
> 
> View attachment 277600View attachment 277601View attachment 277602
> If you look carefully, it can match the RTX 3090 Ti at 1440p, but barely match the RTX 3090 at 4K. I guess low bandwidth (192 Bit) 4k also degrades performance. But it was the 3090 Ti equivalent.


Who buys a RTX 70 series card for 4K?


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 4, 2023)

ThrashZone said:


> The conclusion pretty much always expresses all the notes good and bad maybe sometimes "he" should show more drama on the bad


That's not the point, *IF *he knows the huge price increase compared to previuos gen and still gives it an editors choice, the message he is sending to everyone that reads his review is that price does not matter and that you should pay whatever prices nvidia or amd put on their products as long as they offer higher performance than last gen. One can make the assumption that he implicitly support the price hikes, without saying.
Every reviewer i see on youtube and on the web are giving the real treatment to nvidia and amd, and it's that all current gen gpus are ripoffs. Hell, even @the54thvoid, a moderator here in tpu kind of says it.
If price were as important as performance and other metrics for @W1zzard none of the gpus from this gen would get more than a 3 out of 5 stars. But hey, let's just justify on anything and pay $1600 for the rtx 5080/rx 8900XTX next gen just because they are faster!


----------



## lightning70 (Jan 4, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> Who buys a RTX 70 series card for 4K?


According to Nvidia, this card is faster than the 3090 Ti. No difference other than DLSS 3.0. At 1440p it's on par with the 3090 Ti, at 4k it's on par with the 3090 due to the lower memory bus. The price I criticize is my friend.


----------



## N/A (Jan 5, 2023)

If you think about it why would Nvidia let Scalpers do the scalping. someone has to do it anyway. 699 would be better but there is a threshold at which the hoarders will start filling their garages with cards. It's madness out there. At this point all we can do is wait.


----------



## efikkan (Jan 5, 2023)

RedelZaVedno said:


> 4070TI would have been amazing card, IF priced right = between $499 and $649. But at $799 it stands for everything that is wrong with todays dGPU market. GamersNexus is the most balanced no bullshit review of 4070TI I came across. Cudos to Steve.
> *WTF NVidia? *aka *NVIDIA's Rip-Off - RTX 4070 Ti*
> *
> 
> ...


No BS? (granted Nvidia's DLSS marketing is ridiculous)
I'm really dissapointed in reviews from GamersNexsus and JaysTwoCent(not that Jay has ever been objective). They have become more opinionators than reviewers at this point, and I don't care about your feelings about products, I care about an objective assessment of a product. Calling this product a "rip-off" and falsely claiming it only matches RTX 3080 is a misrepresentation at best.

Yes GPUs are too expensive, but the solution to that isn't to torch one player, it's to have more competition and actually plenty of supplies (not just a few thousand cards). This card actually beats RX 7900 XT in performance per Dollar, which shows some competition helps, even more competition helps more.

I think a good price for RTX 4070 Ti would be $200 lower, but objectively speaking, it matches RTX 3090($1500) in 4K and 3090 Ti($2000) in 1440p, that's a lot more performance per Dollar vs. the previous generation. It's also way more efficient. So objectively speaking, this is a good step forward, and don't let some "butthurt" reviewers ruin a solid product. My recommendation for buyers in this segment is to set up a price notification, and grab one once a good deal arrives. It's usually not hard to find something ~10-20% off if you give it a little time.

And for everyone complaining about 12 GB VRAM; as evident in TPU's review, none of the games exhibit bottlenecking in 4K on this card, and claiming it will be a problem is FUD. Once again, I don't care how much VRAM people "feel" this card needs, the facts are in the results. And facts don't care about your feelings.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 5, 2023)

efikkan said:


> Yes GPUs are too expensive, but the solution to that isn't to torch one player, it's to have more competition and actually plenty of supplies (not just a few thousand cards). This card actually beats RX 7900 XT in performance per Dollar, which shows some competition helps, even more competition helps more.


Overpriced gpu #1, beats overpriced gpu #2, they are both still overpriced anyway.


efikkan said:


> I think a good price for RTX 4070 Ti would be $200 lower, but objectively speaking, it matches RTX 3090($1500) in 4K and 3090 Ti($2000) in 1440p, that's a lot more performance per Dollar vs. the previous generation.


Again, comparing it to the OVERPRICED gpus from last gen, compare it to the rtx 3080 and you'll instantly see this gpu is garbage at this price.

40% more performance than THE PRODUCT IT REPLACES for 40% more money, it's common sense.....


efikkan said:


> So objectively speaking, this is a good step forward, and don't let some "butthurt" reviewers ruin a solid product


To qualify a product, PRICE is as important as everything else, so not solid!
And they can and will call out nvidia and amd on their price hikes and that's the very minimum they should do. Gamers nexus even backs their claims with facts you know...


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

Let's see now. If you play at 1440 then you spend $800 for an average of 170 FPS with everything turned up on high.








And if you play 4K and want all the eye candy you *purchase a card meant for 4K* and that always means spending more money. That's the trade off for playing at 4K.


----------



## Crackong (Jan 5, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> Negative Reason - Market Share
> Last I checked, nVidia has 88% of the video card market, AMD has about 8.something% and Intel has about 3.something%.  If AMD doesn't grab more market share, Radeon might not survive at all.


Please check the following calculation to see the so called 'market share' report is a lie and it was just shipment numbers.









						AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX May Feature Faulty Coolers, Causing Overheating
					

So first nvidia in the heat for burning adaptersand now amd is in the hot for faulty coolers.  That's what I will call some hot mess for both of them. But it is also funny that amd first mugs nvidia for the adapter meltdown and now it turns a 360 on them self. Let's see if nvidia will mug AMD...




					www.techpowerup.com
				











						AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX May Feature Faulty Coolers, Causing Overheating
					

So first nvidia in the heat for burning adaptersand now amd is in the hot for faulty coolers.  That's what I will call some hot mess for both of them. But it is also funny that amd first mugs nvidia for the adapter meltdown and now it turns a 360 on them self. Let's see if nvidia will mug AMD...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




That Report from Jon Peddie Research is clearly wrong and deceiving.

Please don't draw conclusions based on manipulated information.


----------



## efikkan (Jan 5, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Again, comparing it to the OVERPRICED gpus from last gen, compare it to the rtx 3080 and you'll instantly see this gpu is garbage at this price.
> 
> 40% more performance than THE PRODUCT IT REPLACES for 40% more money, it's common sense.....


A product doesn't become garbage because of the price.

We should live in the real world, not in a fantasy land.
In reality, this product is better priced than RX 7900 XT, which is the closest competitor. Any comparison is meaningless without context. If we want lower prices then AMD needs to be able to launch their cards with 100k+ units available, only then will we see prices drop more.

In reality, we are also in the middle of "hyperinflation", causing ~25% inflation over the past two years for most of the western world (even more true inflation of the US), compared to the usual ~2% per year for the past decades.



N3M3515 said:


> Gamers nexus even backs their claims with facts you know...


Like claiming it matches RTX 3080, when it actually matches RTX 3090 in 4K and RTX 3090 Ti in 1440p?
That's a selective comparison at best, and not acting in good faith.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 5, 2023)

efikkan said:


> In reality, this product is better priced than RX 7900 XT


Better priced than an already overpriced product, very nice.


efikkan said:


> In reality, we are also in the middle of "hyperinflation", causing ~25%


Yeah, 25% at most and i have plenty examples in my country of products that have increaced up to that figure. But guess what, no product has seen a +71% increase in price, gen over gen.


----------



## efikkan (Jan 5, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Yeah, 25% at most and i have plenty examples in my country of products that have increaced up to that figure. But guess what, no product has seen a *+71% increase in price, gen over gen.*


RTX 4070 Ti ($799) over RTX 3070 Ti ($599) is a 33% increase (if the laws of mathematics still hold).
(while offering >40% more performance)
</fact police>


----------



## SOAREVERSOR (Jan 5, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Overpriced gpu #1, beats overpriced gpu #2, they are both still overpriced anyway.
> 
> Again, comparing it to the OVERPRICED gpus from last gen, compare it to the rtx 3080 and you'll instantly see this gpu is garbage at this price.
> 
> ...



Except it is not overpriced.  Cards are more expensive to make so prices are always going to keep going up with this stuff, not down.  Second nvidia is the premium brand that is desired, there for by the market and to keep that position they must keep extending their price gap over AMD or they are in deep shit.   Third people have proved they will pay these prices.

So it's not over priced at all really.  And nvidia should raise prices againt next time to maintain their position as the good brand.   And if that's starting to get to people it's not that things are overpriced, it's that you don't actually have funds to get stuff at the level  you want to.   Which is fine!  There will be GTX 4050s at lower prices and there are always IGPs.  

There's no point in griping about it the desirable stuff is going up in price and things going up in price when they are more desired it's just how things work.   Price is not indicative of quality or performance in things.  It's never really been the case.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 5, 2023)

efikkan said:


> RTX 4070 Ti ($799) over RTX 3070 Ti ($599) is a 33% increase (if the laws of mathematics still hold).
> (while offering >40% more performance)
> </fact police>


33%, that's more than your 25% "hyperinflation" rate. Let's do some math, with the 1.25 it results in a $750 (and that's giving it the maximum inflation rate i've seen.)
I was refering to the 4080, with the +71%.



SOAREVERSOR said:


> it's that you don't actually have funds to get stuff at the level you want to.


I have a RX 6800 XT that costed me $720, i had a budget of $800 for the gpu, not because i couldn't afford anything more expensive, but because a refuse to pay +$500 every two years for a gpu that i only use for gaming. Now if i wanted that same level of performance from the next gen i'm looking at $1200, NO WAY IN HELL.

But hey, it's true that if nvidia keeps rising prices and people keep buying from them, then that's what the market wants, sadly.



SOAREVERSOR said:


> There's no point in griping about it the desirable stuff is going up in price and things going up in price when they are more desired it's just how things work.


There's also no point in you griping about me griping right?


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Jan 5, 2023)

RedelZaVedno said:


> 4070TI would have been amazing card, IF priced right = between $499 and $649. But at $799 it stands for everything that is wrong with todays dGPU market. GamersNexus is the most balanced no bullshit review of 4070TI I came across. Cudos to Steve.
> 
> *WTF NVidia? *aka *NVIDIA's Rip-Off - RTX 4070 Ti*
> *
> ...


He did not pull punches. I totally agree that calling this a 4080 12GB would have been a huge mistake. I don’t know how they even considered it.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 5, 2023)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> I don’t know how they even considered it.


Most certanly the +88% market share was the reason.


----------



## Crackong (Jan 5, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Most certanly the +88% market share was the reason.


It was 88% shipment not share.

Those reports from Jon Peddie Research is clearly wrong and deceiving.


----------



## sLowEnd (Jan 5, 2023)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> Except it is not overpriced.  Cards are more expensive to make so prices are always going to keep going up with this stuff, not down.  Second nvidia is the premium brand that is desired, there for by the market and to keep that position they must keep extending their price gap over AMD or they are in deep shit.   Third people have proved they will pay these prices.
> 
> So it's not over priced at all really.  And nvidia should raise prices againt next time to maintain their position as the good brand.   And if that's starting to get to people it's not that things are overpriced, it's that you don't actually have funds to get stuff at the level  you want to.   Which is fine!  There will be GTX 4050s at lower prices and there are always IGPs.
> 
> There's no point in griping about it the desirable stuff is going up in price and things going up in price when they are more desired it's just how things work.   Price is not indicative of quality or performance in things.  It's never really been the case.


Consider the fact that Nvidia's % margins have been on an upward trend








						EVGA won’t offer Nvidia next-gen series
					

Citing price increases and shrinking margins, EVGA quits Nvidia.




					www.jonpeddie.com


----------



## Mussels (Jan 5, 2023)

I really want to see the DLSS frame generation with Geforces experience overlay enabled

We need to see Nvidias own stats for render and display latency before and after its enabled, because having more FPS means nothing if it feels slower and less responsive than running without it

If you're getting 30FPS and a ~35ms display latency, you'd be hating on the game - but 60FPS and 50ms, you'd just give up


For reference, even in demanding games Nvidia stats show me in the 3-8ms render latency and total system latency sitting around 12-15ms, with nvidias early marketing saying frame generation "added" 20ms

If the total was 20ms, it'd be fine for controller based games but terrible for mouse and keyboard games like RTS or FPS titles - but if it outright adds 20, it's worthless outside benchmarks


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 5, 2023)

efikkan said:


> No BS? (granted Nvidia's DLSS marketing is ridiculous)
> I'm really dissapointed in reviews from GamersNexsus and JaysTwoCent(not that Jay has ever been objective). They have become more opinionators than reviewers at this point, and I don't care about your feelings about products, I care about an objective assessment of a product. Calling this product a "rip-off" and falsely claiming it only matches RTX 3080 is a misrepresentation at best.
> 
> Yes GPUs are too expensive, but the solution to that isn't to torch one player, it's to have more competition and actually plenty of supplies (not just a few thousand cards). This card actually beats RX 7900 XT in performance per Dollar, which shows some competition helps, even more competition helps more.
> ...


Couldnt have said it better. Just like always, vote with your wallet.



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> He as in @W1zzard ?
> If so "he" is well aware seeing "he" posted a poll on 4080's worth and had a news story to announce the results to his reading world
> 
> ...


What i mean with „absolute „ is that the usd number is very high, especially for a x70 card. Yet the value (price/performance) is better than anything that exists in this segment (mentioned in the + section for all cards up to 850 usd)

How would you reword what i wrote?

Not in the business of drama, you have plenty of other sources for that that will hold eye contact with you, so your brain thinks they are an authoritative source that can influence your opinion. I’m not an entertainer, i like to test, analyze products, present the data and write about that. I have the best job in the world, I’m on holiday in Egypt, it’s 7 am, wife and kid are still sleeping and I’m writing to you, because of that. Considering that business is fantastic, traffic is higher than ever, it seems there’s one or two people that like my approach


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 5, 2023)

A scam, the card costs (starts) 50% more than the 3080 according to nVidia. 
Great review but the conclusion is very misleading, old cards are far from obsolete because the new card is much more expensive.


----------



## sLowEnd (Jan 5, 2023)

I'm impressed by the power consumption figures, but little else. The card is too expensive IMO, especially since there's no FE card, so it's all going to be even more expensive than "MSRP", AIB cards.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> A scam, the card costs (starts) 50% more than the 3080 according to nVidia.
> Great review but the conclusion is very misleading, old cards are far from obsolete because the new card is much more expensive.


MSRP for the RTX 3070 Ti 8GB is $600 USD
MSRP for the RTX 3080 10GB is $700 USD
MSRP for the RTX 3080 12GB is $800 USD
MSRP for the RTX 4070 Ti 12GB is $800 USD


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> MSRP for the RTX 3070 Ti 8GB is $600 USD
> MSRP for the RTX 3080 10GB is $700 USD
> MSRP for the RTX 3080 12GB is $800 USD
> MSRP for the RTX 4070 Ti 12GB is $800 USD


MSRP is meaningless, most important is real market price, the 4070ti is at least 50% (at least because this is according to nVidia) more than the 3080 right now.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> MSRP is meaningless, most important is real market price, the 4070ti is at least 50% (at least because this is according to nVidia) more than the 3080 right now.





			https://pcpartpicker.com/search/?q=rtx+3080


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 5, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> MSRP is meaningless, most important is real market price, the 4070ti is at least 50% (at least because this is according to nVidia) more than the 3080 right now.



I'd argue against that figure, at least here in the UK, where the 3080FE had been randomly available at £650. Plus 50% would be £975.

Then again, UK prices aren't released yet, I'm sure some will be that high, but then again, non FE 3080 cards are £700-800.  4070ti is still way overpriced for it's model number but if we are using numbers, we have to be factual.

Though something said elsewhere is very pertinent. NVidia were going to release this as a 4080 at $899. Because of the backlash that they deserved, they 'unlaunched' it. And released it as this but $100 cheaper. That gives you an idea about the profit margin they were willing to try and get away with, if they can drop $100 from a card they hadn't even released.


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> https://pcpartpicker.com/search/?q=rtx+3080


You do understand that the world isn't one country.


----------



## N/A (Jan 5, 2023)

4070 Ti showed up here at 1049 euro. the gigabyte, which I like but the price needs to settle and demonstrate abundance in variety first. but that even doesn't say it properly. it has to be in demand and in stcok at the same time unlike 4080 that gathers dust.

3080/90 series are either out of stock or the last remaining is in possession of a mad hoarder store and inevitably costs a fortune. so why even bother looking at them.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 5, 2023)

Prices not up on most UK sites but one place, BOX, has them at £929-999.

I have very little hope for the GPU market in this condition.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> Prices not up on most UK sites but one place, BOX, has them at £929-999.
> 
> I have very little hope for the GPU market in this condition.


Is that including VAT because the UK used to have something like a 20% VAT.


----------



## bug (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> Who buys a RTX 70 series card for 4K?


Probably more than before, now that you get DLSS3.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> Is that including VAT because the UK used to have something like a 20% VAT.



Yeah, top line. Nvidia store has it listed now (not yet available). It's being enthusiastic though and thinks Asus will sell the TUF model at £799. I can definitely see a price amendment from AMD on the 7900XT. Have to see if that makes NV lower this part - we all know they have ample room to do so.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 5, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> A scam, the card costs (starts) 50% more than the 3080 according to nVidia.
> Great review but the conclusion is very misleading, old cards are far from obsolete because the new card is much more expensive.


Where can I find a 3080 for $550? Old cards are very relevant indeed, but it all comes down to pricing. RX 6800 non-XT is a great option with fantastic price/performance if you can find it at $500 or below


----------



## Sora (Jan 5, 2023)

Reusing PCB's means wasted space, and unnecessary length, this is a 2 fan card that should be 9.5", not 3 fan at 12.


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jan 5, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Not in the business of drama, you have plenty of other sources for that that will hold eye contact with you, so your brain thinks they are an authoritative source that can influence your opinion. I’m not an entertainer, i like to test, analyze products, present the data and write about that. I have the best job in the world, I’m on holiday in Egypt, it’s 7 am, wife and kid are still sleeping and I’m writing to you, because of that. Considering that business is fantastic, traffic is higher than ever, it seems there’s one or two people that like my approach


Sure us enthusiasts crowd hang on here and consume your content, which I do appreciate very much btw due to comprehensive benchmarking even if I don't agree with your conclusions, but we're not normies and the normies are currently hardly interested and are not buying dGPUs. I've been working as an assistant manager in the biggest retail tech shop by revenue in my country and our online dGPU AVERAGE sales are down 46% YtoY and sales in retail shops 53%, while prebuilds sales are down only 27% and laptops 21%. I've been working in telecommunication and IT departments for over 28 years and have never seen so little interest in dGPUs upon new releases. Granted, we're in recession, but something must be wrong on the pricing side too, when your average sales half in times when they should double. Our group is now seriously considering not selling dGPUs anymore, because it's too big of a gamble. That's why I'm of the opinion NVidia and AMD should be called out on their greedy practices as they are ruining long term prospects of DIY market.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 5, 2023)

RedelZaVedno said:


> Sure us enthusiasts crowd hang on here and consume your content, which I do appreciate very much btw due to comprehensive benchmarking even if I don't agree with your conclusions, but we're not normies and the normies are currently hardly interested and are not buying dGPUs. I've been working as an assistant manager in the biggest retail tech shop by revenue in my country and our online dGPU AVERAGE sales are down 46% YtoY and sales in retail shops 53%, while prebuilds sales are down only 27% and laptops 21%. I've been working in telecommunication and IT departments for over 28 years and have never seen so little interest in dGPUs upon new releases. Granted, we're in recession, but something must be wrong on the pricing side too, when your average sales half in times when they should double. Our group is now seriously considering not selling dGPUs anymore, because it's too big of a gamble. That's why I'm of the opinion NVidia and AMD should be called out on their greedy practices as they are ruining long term prospects of DIY market.


Yup, no doubt, that's what's happening everywhere, and I agree that prices are high. Not just prices are high, there's no good games to play, and people have to worry about other things than play games. Games will be fine at 1080p, even with lower details, if it's a good game. The market will eventually correct itself or die


----------



## ThrashZone (Jan 5, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> What i mean with „absolute „ is that the usd number is very high, especially for a x70 card. Yet the value (price/performance) is better than anything that exists in this segment (mentioned in the + section for all cards up to 850 usd)
> 
> How would you reword what i wrote?
> 
> Not in the business of drama, you have plenty of other sources for that that will hold eye contact with you, so your brain thinks they are an authoritative source that can influence your opinion. I’m not an entertainer, i like to test, analyze products, present the data and write about that. I have the best job in the world, I’m on holiday in Egypt, it’s 7 am, wife and kid are still sleeping and I’m writing to you, because of that. Considering that business is fantastic, traffic is higher than ever, it seems there’s one or two people that like my approach


Hi,
Well I gave you two examples of using absolutely instead of absolute now I'm ordering some absolute vodka 

I was mocking a couple of other people here that were critizing you for not using more drama in your review about price like the youtube click baiters are
I personally don't care much about it seeing I'm not buying 40 series anyway.


----------



## nguyen (Jan 5, 2023)

Mussels said:


> I really want to see the DLSS frame generation with Geforces experience overlay enabled
> 
> We need to see Nvidias own stats for render and display latency before and after its enabled, because having more FPS means nothing if it feels slower and less responsive than running without it
> 
> ...



Between 60FPS with FG OFF vs 120FPS with FG ON, the majority of people will pick 120FPS with FG ON as the better gaming experience.
Sure 60FPS is good enough, but 120FPS is just so much better   .

PC gaming is all about tuning the settings to get the best gaming experience possible, FG is another powerful tool to achieve just that.


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 5, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Where can I find a 3080 for $550? Old cards are very relevant indeed, but it all comes down to pricing. RX 6800 non-XT is a great option with fantastic price/performance if you can find it at $500 or below


Unfortunately, new the prices are more like 3080 at 7xx$ and the 4070ti at 12xx$.

The way to go is the second hand though the 3080s are going for around 600 and 6800xt around 520. 

RTX4000 and 7900 should be boycotted due to ridiculous pricing, at least it seems to work, the 4090/80 are available since launch at their nVidia prices.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 5, 2023)

Yeah - can confirm, UK pricing looks to be hovering anywhere from £800-£1050 (Asus, of course).


----------



## RedelZaVedno (Jan 5, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> Unfortunately, new the prices are more like 3080 at 7xx$ and the 4070ti at 12xx$.
> 
> The way to go is the second hand though the 3080s are going for around 600 and 6800xt around 520.
> 
> RTX4000 and 7900 should be boycotted due to ridiculous pricing, at least it seems to work, the 4090/80 are available since launch at their nVidia prices.


That's about right. Our retail group got an offer from our long term distributor on their lower end AIB's 4070TI cards starting at 730€ without taxes. That would summarize in 1050€ GPU on our shelves. We refused the offer and will likely not be selling 4070TIs at all. We might have to sell 4080s at a loss eventually, so no way are we willing to take on another hazardous product. Way too much of a gamble.


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Jan 5, 2023)

My local Microcenter has the pricing from $799 all the way up to $1049.  Talk about a wide range of pricing.


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## bug (Jan 5, 2023)

RedelZaVedno said:


> That's about right. Our retail group got an offer from our long term distributor on their lower end AIB's 4070TI cards starting at 730€ without taxes. That would summarize in 1050€ GPU on our shelves. We refused the offer and will likely not be selling 4070TIs at all. We might have to sell 4080s at a loss eventually, so no way are we willing to take on another hazardous product. Way too much of a gamble.


So people are finally starting to vote with their wallets. Long overdue, I'd say. Kudos to you for telling them to shove it (not that you had any choice, but still...).


----------



## Acesbong (Jan 5, 2023)

How on earth does this get an editors choice award?  16% faster than a 3080 @ 4k for 900$. What a joke.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Jan 5, 2023)

Acesbong said:


> How on earth does this get an editors choice award?  16% faster than a 3080 @ 4k for 900$. What a joke.



Remember. This card is claimed to be as fast as a 3090Ti (I'm sorry, up to 3x faster - see the picture, up to 3x faster!), but has less VRAM....but it's not supposed to be targeted as a 4k card???  You should only get the card for 1440p? Then what the hell was the 3090Ti supposed to be? A not 4k card, too?







Now people are saying that 12GB is not holding the card back, but 10GB 2 years ago on a 3080 was holding that card back?
Folks then say the card is better over the 7900XT because of DLSS. What the hell is going on here? AMD has FSR, they both function in a similar manner and give similar results; sometimes one is better than the other depending on the game.
But then folks will say DLSS 3 is the cream of the crop and try to claim it's an awesome addition, but in reality Nvidia is just using algorithms to generate extra frames which also creates increased latency, just to make the appearance that these 40x0 series cards are so much faster than the competition. 
Then folks still claim raytracing is the best thing, better than sliced bread and they say without RT games suck! Therefore, AMD's cards suck the most because they are behind Nvidia's when it comes to doing RT. I still don't know who I feel worse for when it comes to RT - AMD for being behind what Nvidia can do or Nvidia for still sucking at RT even though they have dedicated cores to handle it.

I don't know what's going on anymore with the GPU segment, but I'm starting to feel like it's just a huge pain in the ass in terms of pricing,  performance,  functionality and shitty PR stunts by the manufacturers. Maybe it's just me?


----------



## crimina| (Jan 5, 2023)

Launch Prices:
1070 Ti - $449
2070 Super - $499
3070 Ti -$599
4070 Ti - $799

If you go by Nvidia trend and the performance it offers compaired to last generation, this card should have cost $699 at the most. To the people saying it isn't overpriced (even with taking inflation into account) you are delusional. 

The card is good, the price is horrible. Just like the 7900XT. No why it should have gotten editor's choice.



neatfeatguy said:


> Remember. This card is claimed to be as fast as a 3090Ti (I'm sorry, up to 3x faster - see the picture, up to 3x faster!), but has less VRAM....but it's not supposed to be targeted as a 4k card???  You should only get the card for 1440p? Then what the hell was the 3090Ti supposed to be? A not 4k card, too?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jan 5, 2023)

Acesbong said:


> How on earth does this get an editors choice award?  16% faster than a 3080 @ 4k for 900$. What a joke.


Hi,
Well you'd have to see if there's one tpu review that doesn't have one first ')


----------



## sepheronx (Jan 5, 2023)

It's not just you. I see it too. People say a 70 series card being as costly as a 90 series of previous gen cause of same performance is A OK, is a coping mechanism.  The 40 series is the 20 series repeat. Overpriced gpus.

Performance wise they are fine, price wise they are abysmal.

What is more abysmal and scary is how much people are loving DLSS 3. Fake frames just to make unplayable stuff playable is rather bad. Setting s precedence that "its OK to be lazy developers and make slopy games. You got tech behind you to fake it through!".


----------



## crimina| (Jan 5, 2023)

sepheronx said:


> It's not just you. I see it too. People say a 70 series card being as costly as a 90 series of previous gen cause of same performance is A OK, is a coping mechanism.  The 40 series is the 20 series repeat. Overpriced gpus.
> 
> Performance wise they are fine, price wise they are abysmal.
> 
> What is more abysmal and scary is how much people are loving DLSS 3. Fake frames just to make unplayable stuff playable is rather bad. Setting s precedence that "its OK to be lazy developers and make slopy games. You got tech behind you to fake it through!".


I wouldn't use DLSS 3 just because of the latency it has been shown to introduce.


----------



## tajoh111 (Jan 5, 2023)

AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
					

This card exists for one reason and one reason only...  To make the RX 7900 XTX look better.  It's so stupid too because AMD had a real hit with the RX 6800 XT when compared to the RX 6900 XT.  The better value should always be with the lower-tier card but both nVidia and AMD have bucked that...




					www.techpowerup.com
				




Funny no one is calling out the 7900xt the same way or calling @W1zzard  a shill for his editor choice award for that review.

Do people own AMD stock or something? People need to check their own biases if they are going to call out someone elses.

For pricing to fall. Both companies need to fail at this high pricing not just Nvidia because you hate them.

AMD pricing needs to fall even more because outside of this forum bubble which is generally more red loving, the general public prefers Nvidia as Marketshare numbers show. Higher AMD pricing causes higher Nvidia pricing which just causes a cycle of continuously higher pricing.

In addition, AMD lowering pricing would cause far more damage towards Nvidia business model and financials. However short term greed is what is keeping pricing high. E.g price the 7900xt at 699. and all of a sudden Nvidia's 3 or 4 billion dollar inventory is worth half since much of it is Amphere and Nvidia's high usage of North American engineers, versus Chinese ones makes their R and D budge not sustainable without price increases. Nvidia in 2018 spent 1.8 billion on R and D and AMD spent 1.4 billion. In 2022, Nvidia spent over 5.2 billion while AMD just spent over 2.8 billion. Subtract the money spent on CPU's and AMD is spending significantly less than a billion dollars on GPU's in a year.

Play their cards right and AMD can really hurt Nvidia, more than a short time financial benefit for themselves.


----------



## Acesbong (Jan 5, 2023)

tajoh111 said:


> AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
> 
> 
> This card exists for one reason and one reason only...  To make the RX 7900 XTX look better.  It's so stupid too because AMD had a real hit with the RX 6800 XT when compared to the RX 6900 XT.  The better value should always be with the lower-tier card but both nVidia and AMD have bucked that...
> ...



You make a good point, I didn't personally look at the end summary for that. How are these cards getting recommended? I like TPU reviews and their format/structure. How on earth can anyone justify recommending a 4070ti or a 7900xt?
Are we afraid to stop receiving review samples or something?


----------



## LFaWolf (Jan 5, 2023)

tajoh111 said:


> AMD Radeon RX 7900 XT
> 
> 
> This card exists for one reason and one reason only...  To make the RX 7900 XTX look better.  It's so stupid too because AMD had a real hit with the RX 6800 XT when compared to the RX 6900 XT.  The better value should always be with the lower-tier card but both nVidia and AMD have bucked that...
> ...


Good point, but one of the things in business is to maximize profit and not leave money on the table. AMD is doing exactly that. There is no need to hurt NVIDIA when AMD can also benefit from the high prices.

The price cut will come, but maybe game bundle comes first. We shall see.


----------



## Acesbong (Jan 5, 2023)

LFaWolf said:


> Good point, but one of the things in business is to maximize profit and not leave money on the table. AMD is doing exactly that. There is no need to hurt NVIDIA when AMD can also benefit from the high prices.
> 
> The price cut will come, but maybe game bundle comes first. We shall see.


True , no point in getting annoyed about it, vote with your wallet. However I don't see how reviewers can recommend any of these products.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 5, 2023)

tajoh111 said:


> Funny no one is calling out the 7900xt the same way or calling @W1zzard a shill for his editor choice award for that review.


I did call him out on both instances.


----------



## medi01 (Jan 5, 2023)

People need to start voting with their wallet for some folks in leather jackets to realize that there is market for "slightly more expensive, but quite a bit faster than last gen" GPUs.


Maybe for "roughly the same price, but somewhat faster" GPUs.

Oh, and then, maybe that lovely TSMC would see its record profits ("node processes are more and more expensive" of course) to be a bit less recordy.



LFaWolf said:


> There is no need to hurt NVIDIA when AMD can also benefit from the high prices.


The reason is called "I want to grab market share".

Whether MCM design can be sold much cheaper than SMALL monolith GPUs like 4080 and "unlaunched 4080" is yet to be seen.

Much more VRAM on AMD GPUs isn't helping either.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jan 5, 2023)

Acesbong said:


> You make a good point, I didn't personally look at the end summary for that. How are these cards getting recommended? I like TPU reviews and their format/structure. How on earth can anyone justify recommending a 4070ti or a 7900xt?
> Are we afraid to stop receiving review samples or something?


Hi,
It's just a logo that is added to all reviews.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

crimina| said:


> Launch Prices:
> 1070 Ti - $449
> 2070 Super - $499
> 3070 Ti -$599
> ...


RTX 3090 MSRP: $1,499
RTX 4070 Ti MSRP: $799


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> RTX 3090 MSRP: $1,499
> RTX 4070 Ti MSRP: $799
> RTX 3070 Ti MSRP: $600


Corrected that for you.


----------



## LFaWolf (Jan 5, 2023)

medi01 said:


> People need to start voting with their wallet for some folks in leather jackets to realize that there is market for "slightly more expensive, but quite a bit faster than last gen" GPUs.
> 
> 
> Maybe for "roughly the same price, but somewhat faster" GPUs.
> ...


Market share is much less important than pure profit. Apple ships less than 20% of the smartphones each quarter worldwide but earns much more than anyone else. Market share can be useful for a fast growth company, but AMD is not a fast growth company anymore.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> Corrected that for you.


$200 more for 52 more fps at 1440P.


----------



## wheresmycar (Jan 5, 2023)

I've been comparing a couple of 1440p stats to see how well the 4070 TI performs over my current 2080 TI. Only around 30% faster. Looking at a few titles "i play" regularly @ 1440p, thats around +25-35fps increase. Outside of special circumstances (pandemic/crytpo) this is the type performance increase i would have expected with a 3000-series card in the $500 region but a 40-series mid-tier card showboating $800 is absurd. Where did the x2-x4 perf go? It's not even x2-x4 when stacked up against a 20-series card.



heflys20 said:


> It just shows how horrendously priced the 3090ti was when it came out.



Its even more shocking people/reviewers are comparing the 3090TI's MSRP with current Gen products. All the meanwhile, NVIDIA is probably begging for another COVID/crypto hit to justify current prices subject to further in-house mass-murder scalping. They're killing the enthusiast gaming market and _me knot lyking it_


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 5, 2023)

wheresmycar said:


> I've been comparing a couple of 1440p stats to see how well the 4070 TI performs over my current 2080 TI. Only around 30% faster. Looking at a few titles "i play" regularly @ 1440p, thats around +25-35fps increase. Outside of special circumstances (pandemic/crytpo) this is the type performance increase i would have expected with a 3000-series card in the $500 region but a 40-series mid-tier card showboating $800 is absurd. Where did the x2-x4 perf go? It's not even x2-x4 when stacked up against a 20-series card.
> 
> 
> 
> Its even more shocking people/reviewers are comparing the 3090TI's MSRP with current Gen products. All the meanwhile, NVIDIA is probably begging for another COVID/crypto hit to justify current prices subject to further in-house mass-murder scalping. They're killing the enthusiast gaming market and _me knot lyking it_


That so called $800 mid tier card beats a $1500 RTX 3090 at 1440P.


----------



## crimina| (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> RTX 3090 MSRP: $1,499
> RTX 4070 Ti MSRP: $799


And? Each generation the 70 series matches the previous generation flagship. You would be a fool to pay that price for a 3090 Ti now. Doesn't make the 4070 Ti price any better.

By your logic, the 4070 Ti should cost $1500 because it matches last generation flagship performance... lol. Nvidia loves people like you.


----------



## wheresmycar (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> That so called $800 mid tier card beats a $1500 RTX 3090 at 1440P.



Its imprudent to suggest 30-series MSRP is relevant going forward. During the cryto/pandemic craze had the 3090 MSRP'eed at $4000 it doesn't mean $4000 becomes relevant with some level of price normalisation. We need to stop using 30-series day light robbery prices as a universal indicator... this sort of absurdity only makes sense for NVIDIA MARKETING, not for the general consumer. Also let's not forget the XX90 luxury products are hardly representative of XX70/XX80 segments.

Bottom line, 25-35fps increase for a mid-ranged 40-series over a 2080 TI is just rediculous considering the asking price ($800). The most i'd pay for this sort of uptick is $500


----------



## N/A (Jan 5, 2023)

Don't count on it to hold true forever, 70 series is a very wide range this time around 3080 to 3090. the simple 4070 is shaping up to have only 75% of GPU unlocked ~ 3080 or less. We don't make the rules, Nvidia does and more precisely the forces that act and react in the universe.


----------



## cbb (Jan 5, 2023)

idk, my takeaway is this thing will age poorly (typ resolution isn't gonna decrease over time). If u want fast 1080 or 2k or whatev _now_, seems ok (maybe even promising, by some priorities). But I try to upgrade infrequently, and this seems likely to be a regrettable purchase in just a couple years for current/likely 4k users. I already run 3840x2160 (it's cheap nowadays) and ideally would like to multi monitor.

Plus, _man _gpus are a lot more expensive these days (largely inflation, but not all I think, or at least beyond chained CPI). My 2070 will need to soldier on for a few more years, it seems.



the54thvoid said:


> It also outperforms the RTX3080. By about 22%.
> 
> Why is nobody using the RTX3080 as a comparison (especially when this was initially being released as a 4080 12GB)? I'll tell you why, because at current pricing it is 30% more expensive for only 22% more performance (less at 4k).
> 
> ...


best post in the thread, imho. Nailed it.


----------



## bug (Jan 5, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> $200 more for 52 more fps at 1440P.


You couldn't get a 3070Ti for MSRP anyway. To this day it's hard to find one that's not at least ~$750.


----------



## crimina| (Jan 5, 2023)

bug said:


> You couldn't get a 3070Ti for MSRP anyway. To this day it's hard to find one that's not at least ~$750.


That’s not true. They were hard to get because of scalpers, but you could get them at MSRP.


----------



## Darmok N Jalad (Jan 6, 2023)

Something to consider when comparing a product to MSRP of last gen is, was the last gen priced well? The flagship 2080Ti was 999, but the 3090Ti was 1999. Sure, not of the same class, but the top tier card of the generation. Nvidia made their really big price hike move in the last generation—before inflation really took off! Now they march out cards like this and ask $799 (more like $850+). Just think, they actually considered calling this a 4080, so they could price it even higher. Yes, you’re getting generational performance gains, but that’s the whole point. If performance was stagnant, there would be no new sale, and really no reason for a new product. The whole purpose of new generations of tech products is for them to be significantly better than the outgoing model in some way, for about the same amount of money as before. 

It looks like a decent card that should perform well, but the price is just wrong. NVIDIA is trying to reframe what GPU pricing should be, and it’s way higher than a few generations ago. A $200 generational price bump is what they want us to accept. And again, this was almost called a 4080–they wanted to charge even more for this product.


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 6, 2023)

Acesbong said:


> How on earth does this get an editors choice award?  16% faster than a 3080 @ 4k for 900$. What a joke.


Exactly my sentiment, reviewers should have some integrity, at least something like this:
"at this price is recommended beyond this it isn't"
Then we have philistines and sellouts like DF, which basically are nVidia's marketing tool.



neatfeatguy said:


> Remember. This card is claimed to be as fast as a 3090Ti (I'm sorry, up to 3x faster - see the picture, up to 3x faster!), but has less VRAM....but it's not supposed to be targeted as a 4k card???  You should only get the card for 1440p? Then what the hell was the 3090Ti supposed to be? A not 4k card, too?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the only impressive game using this technology Fortnite, AMD runs well, suggesting that RT implementations so far are more suiting nVidia GPUs.

As for hardware acceleration, nVidia is stagnating, the loss of performance when activating RT hasn't improved all that much, in some instances it's worse.

I'm not condoning AMD, they are just as awful with their stupid pricing.


----------



## N/A (Jan 6, 2023)

Darmok N Jalad said:


> The whole purpose of new generations of tech products is for them to be significantly better than the outgoing model in some way, for about the same amount of money as before.


Maybe not necessarily. Having released a 25-33% cheaper and better card than 3080Ti also does the trick. What they call it is kind of insignificant except for not sounding right resembling more of 3060 with this 192 botched bus than a proper 70/80.

I wouldn't pay a 2 year old MSRP for a 3070. But 50% better for 50% more money, yeah that works for me and i don't have to worry about the insufficient 8GB rendering it obsolete turning it into paperweight way too soon.


----------



## Nawdir (Jan 6, 2023)

In my country basic (new)rtx 3080 is being sold for less than 600$  but basic 4070ti is 940$ upwards. Comedy material there


----------



## brutlern (Jan 6, 2023)

How much of an issue would the 192 bit and only 12 GB vram be in the future? I cannot afford a 4080 or 7900XTX, the most I can go is the 7900XT. Than one has 320 bit and a whooping 20 GB of Vram. The 4070 is cheaper, and thus the more attractive option. I dont care for RT and FSR is good enough for me, so those are not a factor in my choice. But with only 12 GB of Vram (which is already borderline at 4K) and only 192 bit, I fear that the 4070 is a great performer today, but as newer more advanced games release, I fear it won't have the lasting power of the 7900. (I remember the old days, when the rule of thumb was: avoid the 128bit cards, always go for the 256bit ones)


----------



## bug (Jan 6, 2023)

brutlern said:


> How much of an issue would the 192 bit and only 12 GB vram be in the future? I cannot afford a 4080 or 7900XTX, the most I can go is the 7900XT. Than one has 320 bit and a whooping 20 GB of Vram. The 4070 is cheaper, and thus the more attractive option. I dont care for RT and FSR is good enough for me, so those are not a factor in my choice. But with only 12 GB of Vram (which is already borderline at 4K) and only 192 bit, I fear that the 4070 is a great performer today, but as newer more advanced games release, I fear it won't have the lasting power of the 7900. (I remember the old days, when the rule of thumb was: avoid the 128bit cards, always go for the 256bit ones)


Three things:
1. 12GB is not "already borderline", it's plenty for 4k. Worst case scenario, you'll find a few titles that go overboard in 3-5 years. You can work around that by fiddling with settings with a minimal loss in IQ.
2. Looking at benchmarks, 192bit is too narrow. The card is easily faster than 3090Ti at FHD and QHD, but it already runs out of steam at 4k. It's still in the same league as the 3090Ti, so it will do its job. But with a 256bit bus it would have been significantly faster.
3. I'm pretty sure when you say "FSR is good enough for me", you forget DLSS3 comes with frame generation which will boost your FPS where FSR can't follow.

Long story short, I would consider the 4070Ti, without worrying about its longevity. On the other hand, I'm damn certain I'm not paying $800 for a video card.


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 6, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> $200 more for 52 more fps at 1440P.


Yeah, and next 5070Ti $1000, and in a couple of generations 7070Ti $1600 right!



crimina| said:


> Each generation the 70 series matches the previous generation flagship


The 3070 non ti matched the previous gen flagship, the 2080 ti....................................two years later and the 4070 *Ti, does not even beat previuos gen flagship, the 3090 Ti.*


----------



## crimina| (Jan 6, 2023)

brutlern said:


> How much of an issue would the 192 bit and only 12 GB vram be in the future? I cannot afford a 4080 or 7900XTX, the most I can go is the 7900XT. Than one has 320 bit and a whooping 20 GB of Vram. The 4070 is cheaper, and thus the more attractive option. I dont care for RT and FSR is good enough for me, so those are not a factor in my choice. But with only 12 GB of Vram (which is already borderline at 4K) and only 192 bit, I fear that the 4070 is a great performer today, but as newer more advanced games release, I fear it won't have the lasting power of the 7900. (I remember the old days, when the rule of thumb was: avoid the 128bit cards, always go for the 256bit ones)


12GB is on the edge of being enough 4k. I was running a 3080 10GB and was already running out of VRAM. I would be hesitant about buying a 12GB card for 4k in 2023. And you can already see the impact of the 192bit bus at 4k. 
I'd say wait to see if price drops happen and get a 7900XT if that happens.


----------



## N/A (Jan 6, 2023)

Not exactly, they're already in trouble. The cards won't fly off the shelves. They have to make it right. 16GB or see ya in 2024. Who wants those crappy choices for memory config at above $750. Pay $900 with taxes only to get 20% bottlenecked at 4K. Well it's not a 4k card but still.


----------



## brutlern (Jan 6, 2023)

bug said:


> Three things:
> 1. 12GB is not "already borderline", it's plenty for 4k. Worst case scenario, you'll find a few titles that go overboard in 3-5 years. You can work around that by fiddling with settings with a minimal loss in IQ.
> 2. Looking at benchmarks, 192bit is too narrow. The card is easily faster than 3090Ti at FHD and QHD, but it already runs out of steam at 4k. It's still in the same league as the 3090Ti, so it will do its job. But with a 256bit bus it would have been significantly faster.
> 3. I'm pretty sure when you say "FSR is good enough for me", you forget DLSS3 comes with frame generation which will boost your FPS where FSR can't follow.
> ...



1. Well it is borderline. I am hitting a wall with most games at 8 GB at 3440*1440 (Shadow of the Tomb Raider hits 7 Gb at 2560*1440 already). 4K is going to push that past 10 GB easy. So in 2 years time, do you think 12 GB will be enough? (And no, reducing details is not an option, if i'm paying this much money for a card, it better work)
2. My point exactly, I am worried, again about the future.
3. I did not forget, until Frame Generation also improves frametimes (playing at 100 fps but with 50 fps input lag is not 100fps), I care not for it.


----------



## bug (Jan 6, 2023)

brutlern said:


> 1. Well it is borderline. I am hitting a wall with most games at 8 GB at 3440*1440 (Shadow of the Tomb Raider hits 7 Gb at 2560*1440 already). 4K is going to push that past 10 GB easy. So in 2 years time, do you think 12 GB will be enough? (And no, reducing details is not an option, if i'm paying this much money for a card, it better work)
> 2. My point exactly, I am worried, again about the future.
> 3. I did not forget, until Frame Generation also improves frametimes (playing at 100 fps but with 50 fps input lag is not 100fps), I care not for it.


What can I say, if you won't fiddle with settings and you're one of those "all or nothing" persons (nothing wrong with that, just my choice), you're going to have to cough up more $$$ for that. Servus


----------



## efikkan (Jan 6, 2023)

brutlern said:


> How much of an issue would the 192 bit and only 12 GB vram be in the future? I cannot afford a 4080 or 7900XTX, the most I can go is the 7900XT. Than one has 320 bit and a whooping 20 GB of Vram. The 4070 is cheaper, and thus the more attractive option. I dont care for RT and FSR is good enough for me, so those are not a factor in my choice. But with only 12 GB of Vram (which is already borderline at 4K) and only 192 bit, I fear that the 4070 is a great performer today, but as newer more advanced games release, I fear it won't have the lasting power of the 7900. (I remember the old days, when the rule of thumb was: avoid the 128bit cards, always go for the 256bit ones)


The 12 GB of VRAM wouldn't be an issue (not in realistic workloads anyways), as rasterizing workloads will be bottlenecked by memory bandwidth or computational power before. (RT workloads tend to be bottlenecked by computational power first).

The one thing that nearly no one gets is that given a fixed memory bandwidth, the amount of VRAM which can be used within a given timeframe is also fixed. This is regardless of the game, algorithm or API. So if your GPU has 504 GB/s and your desired frame rate is 120 FPS, then the maximum theoretical utilized VRAM in a single frame i 504 / 120 = 4.2 GB. But this assumes the GPU only accesses the same memory once (which it doesn't), and does it 100% efficiently, so the real usage is probably less than half of this. The next logical deduction from this, if you mod a game with a giant texture pack with 16x the normal texture size, the frame rate will fall sharply simply because the memory bus can't deliver, long before you've fully utilized the VRAM. You'll quickly fall below 30 FPS because of the memory bottleneck.

So the next big question then, what about RX 7900 XT with its tempting 20 GB and impressive 800 GB/s bandwidth? Well, if this card was better balanced, then it would completely outclass RTX 4070 Ti even today, but it doesn't, because it's limited on the computational side*. Not only in pure TFlops and so on, there could be GPU scheduling and numerous tiny architectural details which "holds back" performance, and this is *always* the case with *any* GPU design. So for this reason, base your choice on a wide set of benchmarks (like this review), and the conclusions drawn from this is likely to hold true for the useful lifespan of the products, both 2 years and even 5 years from now, the relative performance between the products are likely to remain the same. And this has held true in the past, looking back at Polaris, Vega and Navi, they didn't stand the test of time any better than their green counterparts.
So pick the card that fits your situation best now, and it's likely to be the best choice in the long term.

*)
A texture mod pack would probably be the exception here, as these are unbalanced, where this card might get an edge.



brutlern said:


> 1. Well it is borderline. I am hitting a wall with most games at 8 GB at 3440*1440 (Shadow of the Tomb Raider hits 7 Gb at 2560*1440 already). 4K is going to push that past 10 GB easy. So in 2 years time, do you think 12 GB will be enough?


Don't forget, memory allocated isn't the same as memory used. GPUs compress buffers and some textures heavily.

Secondly, to reiterate my point above, if your future games in two years are going to allocate more, then they will also demand more bandwidth and likely computational power too, so ineviteably you are going to sacrifice FPS or detail levels, and in either case you are not likely to run out of VRAM first.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 6, 2023)

efikkan said:


> A product doesn't become garbage because of the price.
> 
> We should live in the real world, not in a fantasy land.
> In reality, this product is better priced than RX 7900 XT, which is the closest competitor. Any comparison is meaningless without context. If we want lower prices then AMD needs to be able to launch their cards with 100k+ units available, only then will we see prices drop more.
> ...


Well said. The launch conditions of the 3000 series are ancient hsitory today. 

Something else people need to consider is cost. The cost of a single 7nm wafer from TSMC in $10k, according to toms hardware. 5nm is $16000. Nvidia was using samsung 8nm last gen, allegedly because TSMC was too expensive, so we can assume nvidia was paying under 10k per wafer. That means with ADA, nvidia could be paying upwards of twice as much per wafer as they were two years ago, meaning that a 3060 sized GPU could cost more to make then a 3070 sized GPU did last gen. They are also using GDDR6X, which costs notably more then the GDDR6 used on the 3060. Then you add on the much higher cost of fuel, labor, ece. 

So expecting the 4070ti to launch at $450 like the 3060, IMO, is wishful thinking, nvidia could very well be losing money. Not that this justifies the $800 price. IMO $650 would have been far more reasonable, and at that price this card would be a winner. $700 would have been acceptable, same price as a MSRP launch 3080 with 50% more VRAM and 15-20% more performance and much better efficiency at the same price.


----------



## crimina| (Jan 6, 2023)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Well said. The launch conditions of the 3000 series are ancient hsitory today.
> 
> Something else people need to consider is cost. The cost of a single 7nm wafer from TSMC in $10k, according to toms hardware. 5nm is $16000. Nvidia was using samsung 8nm last gen, allegedly because TSMC was too expensive, so we can assume nvidia was paying under 10k per wafer. That means with ADA, nvidia could be paying upwards of twice as much per wafer as they were two years ago, meaning that a 3060 sized GPU could cost more to make then a 3070 sized GPU did last gen. They are also using GDDR6X, which costs notably more then the GDDR6 used on the 3060. Then you add on the much higher cost of fuel, labor, ece.
> 
> So expecting the 4070ti to launch at $450 like the 3060, IMO, is wishful thinking, nvidia could very well be losing money. Not that this justifies the $800 price. IMO $650 would have been far more reasonable, and at that price this card would be a winner. $700 would have been acceptable, same price as a MSRP launch 3080 with 50% more VRAM and 15-20% more performance and much better efficiency at the same price.


$650 and Nvidia is still making money. Hopefully people will speak with thier wallets and these cards will sit on shelves(for the most part) until Nvidia drops the price.

As has been said before, this whole generation from both sides is overpriced. Hopefully when old stock dwindles prices will come down.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Jan 6, 2023)

crimina| said:


> $650 and Nvidia is still making money.


Well yes, that is generally how economies work. I wouldnt suggest selling GPUs at a loss, AMD did that for several years and look how well it worked for them.....


crimina| said:


> Hopefully people will speak with thier wallets and these cards will sit on shelves(for the most part) until Nvidia drops the price.
> 
> As has been said before, this whole generation from both sides is overpriced. Hopefully when old stock dwindles prices will come down.


They're overpriced, yes, but short of a massive global financial meltdown you're not going to see 2019 prices gain. There's been far too much hyperinflation for that to happen. Despite all the gouging and price raising nvidia's net margin for last year was only a few percentage points higher then it was the year before.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jan 6, 2023)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> Well yes, that is generally how economies work. I wouldnt suggest selling GPUs at a loss, AMD did that for several years and look how well it worked for them.....
> 
> They're overpriced, yes, but short of a massive global financial meltdown you're not going to see 2019 prices gain. There's been far too much hyperinflation for that to happen. Despite all the gouging and price raising nvidia's net margin for last year was only a few percentage points higher then it was the year before.


Hi,
And both were effected by miner sells.


----------



## Avro Arrow (Jan 6, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> This card is actually a considerably better value than the RX 7900 XT.  Now, I realise that this is a VERY low bar we're setting but... there is a silver lining to all of this.  A lot of people mindlessly reach for nVidia if the price is the same (which is usually a mistake but whatever), let alone when the price is lower (performance be damned in most cases) and nVidia cards are much worse values than their Radeon counterparts 99.99% of the time.


I'm replying to myself because I can't edit the post anymore.  I was wrong about it being a better value than the RX 7900 XT because I've since watched Gamers Nexus, Paul's Hardware, BPS Customs, LTT and JayzTwoCents.  I'm afraid that something is wrong with Steve Walton because he actually gave it a positive review.  Ever since nVidia tried blacklisting Hardware Unboxed, their testing has started to lean sharply into the green.  Steve Burke on the other hand missed no opportunity to ridicule nVidia for the crappy RTX 4070 Ti and nVidia's marketing (which managed to be WORSE than AMD's).








When even LTT and JayzTwoCents are trash-talking an nVidia card, you know that it's terrible.


----------



## N/A (Jan 6, 2023)

What is this new RT overdrive mode actually and can we run it on the public release.


----------



## bug (Jan 7, 2023)

N/A said:


> What is this new RT overdrive mode actually and can we run it on the public release.


No idea, there's no description for overdrive on the official site.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 7, 2023)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> It's just a logo that is added to all reviews.


It has to be a damn bad product to not get it, it's saying it's a good GPU and/or a good 4070Ti - it's all about what it's being compared to


This GPU goes for $1k Au less than i paid for my 3090, so I cant fault the pricing too much
(Just the lack of VRAM/bus width and if that'll be a future issue)


----------



## The Quim Reaper (Jan 7, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> When even LTT and JayzTwoCents are trash-talking an nVidia card, you know that it's terrible.



Just a shame Techpowerup doesn't have the integrity or guts to say the same.

cowards.


----------



## claes (Jan 7, 2023)

Please link to your review wanna see what a real reviewer looks like else you are the coward


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 7, 2023)

The Quim Reaper said:


> Just a shame Techpowerup doesn't have the integrity or guts to say the same.
> 
> cowards.


The work done here for reviewing is unmatched, e.g. the ray tracing part is very interesting and shows that nVidia's RT cores are useless and barely improved gen over gen.

As for the conclusion, as far as I'm concerned they are meaningless, they provide the data to make your own mind, plus it's too US biased e.g the 4070ti launch price is 50%+ than the 3080 any conclusion that doesn't take this into account is wrong.

I wouldn't say they lack integrity but rather they are wrong, as they clearly show that the 4070ti is a bad product. While others with no integrity like DF will actively mislead viewers and openly do marketing for nVidia in non-sponsored videos.


----------



## Mussels (Jan 7, 2023)

The Quim Reaper said:


> Just a shame Techpowerup doesn't have the integrity or guts to say the same.
> 
> cowards.


Or maybe the youtubers are doing their clickbait thing while TPU sticks to the facts, with less focus on the USD MSRP pricing - because that pricing is worthless in the long term?


----------



## The Quim Reaper (Jan 7, 2023)

Mussels said:


> Or maybe the youtubers are doing their clickbait thing while TPU sticks to the facts, with less focus on the USD MSRP pricing - because that pricing is worthless in the long term?



No that's not it, not it at all.


----------



## N/A (Jan 7, 2023)

Yt Influencers are resorting to antics and slandering for click bait telling viewers what they want to hear, not what they need or something like that. So much noise for just $300 overpriced 4070 and 4080. If the buyer like me can't afford $700, what difference does it make. 700 or 900 wouldn't matter to me, can't afford it. So Nvidia are going to keep releasing new products at a lower price until we meet.


----------



## crimina| (Jan 7, 2023)

N/A said:


> Yt Influencers are resorting to antics and slandering for click bait telling viewers what they want to hear, not what they need or something like that. So much noise for just $300 overpriced 4070 and 4080. If the buyer like me can't afford $700, what difference does it make. 700 or 900 wouldn't matter to me, can't afford it. So Nvidia are going to keep releasing new products at a lower price until we meet.


It literally matters because there is a $200 difference… lol

I would be willing to pay $999 for a 4080 but at $1199 it is a hard pass. See how that works. I can afford both, but there is a point that too much is too much. $799 for the 4070ti is too much.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jan 7, 2023)

Mussels said:


> It has to be a damn bad product to not get it, it's saying it's a good GPU and/or a good 4070Ti - it's all about what it's being compared to
> 
> 
> This GPU goes for $1k Au less than i paid for my 3090, so I cant fault the pricing too much
> (Just the lack of VRAM/bus width and if that'll be a future issue)


Hi,
Yep I've seen laundry list of thumbs down, way more than thumbs up and the review still get the editors choice logo so I just don't give that part of the conclusion much notice anymore 
The context is better to take notice to 

As far as pricing in the long run, well in the far past prices have always gone down after approximately 6-12 months 
That seems like a thing of the past since miners screwed the system up completely
I look forward to this hardware price going down but will not hold my breath so atm I'm out of the new hardware market and used I'm never interested in that market.


----------



## onemanhitsquad (Jan 7, 2023)

say hello to the 4080 12gb


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 7, 2023)

Mussels said:


> Or maybe the youtubers are doing their clickbait thing while TPU sticks to the *facts*, with less focus on the USD MSRP *pricing* - because that pricing is worthless in the long term?


Problem with facts is the 4070ti is 50% more expensive than the 3080 where was this mentioned? They still stick to US prices in their conclusion. They should've instead just link the conclusion to a price, at xxx it's good beyond xxx it's stupid. 

But from what I've seen people are smart, all new cards are not selling and are available at their suggested prices.


----------



## Avro Arrow (Jan 7, 2023)

N/A said:


> Not exactly, they're already in trouble. The cards won't fly off the shelves. They have to make it right. 16GB or see ya in 2024. Who wants those crappy choices for memory config at above $750. Pay $900 with taxes only to get 20% bottlenecked at 4K. Well it's not a 4k card but still.


Well, it's around the RTX 3080 Ti in performance and that was referred to as a "4K card".


brutlern said:


> 1. Well it is borderline. I am hitting a wall with most games at 8 GB at 3440*1440 (Shadow of the Tomb Raider hits 7 Gb at 2560*1440 already). 4K is going to push that past 10 GB easy. So in 2 years time, do you think 12 GB will be enough? (And no, reducing details is not an option, if i'm paying this much money for a card, it better work)


This is a big reason the reason that I chose the RX 6800 XT over the RTX 3080.  That 6GB VRAM difference is HUGE and 10GB was not enough VRAM for a GPU with that level of potency.  Down the road, it would end the card's usefulness far too early.


brutlern said:


> 2. My point exactly, I am worried, again about the future.


Most intelligent people are because when you're not worried about the future, it has a tendency to sneak up on you and bite you in the ass.


brutlern said:


> 3. I did not forget, until Frame Generation also improves frametimes (playing at 100 fps but with 50 fps input lag is not 100fps), I care not for it.


I really don't think that will ever happen because you can't reduce latency with fake frames.


Mussels said:


> It has to be a damn bad product to not get it, it's saying it's a good GPU and/or a good 4070Ti - it's all about what it's being compared to


The word "good" is extremely vague.  One could say that a GPU is "good" as long as it functions.  The fact is that "good" is a blend of performance, price, longevity and all the other features associated with GPUs.  Everyone wants a different balance because they have different priorities so what is "good" for one person is "bad" for another.  That's why I define "good" as "not defective" because that's a universal priority.


Mussels said:


> This GPU goes for $1k Au less than i paid for my 3090, so I cant fault the pricing too much
> (Just the lack of VRAM/bus width and if that'll be a future issue)


Actually, you can fault the pricing because it gets thoroughly crushed by the RX 7900 XTX in GPU speed with or without RT turned on.  This is despite the fact that it's less than $200 cheaper.  You can also fault the pricing because it was a mistake to pay what you did for your RTX 3090 just like it was a mistake for me to pay what I did for my 6800 XT.  Just because we screwed up doesn't mean that we have to do it again, we just have to admit that we buggered things up for ourselves.


crimina| said:


> It literally matters because there is a $200 difference… lol


Absolutely it does.  Every dollar counts no matter what Jensen says.


crimina| said:


> I would be willing to pay $999 for a 4080 but at $1199 it is a hard pass. See how that works. I can afford both, but there is a point that too much is too much. $799 for the 4070ti is too much.


Only if you're talking $999AUD because if you're talking $1,000USD, then you're talking around $1,500AUD which is just insane.  Unless you're using this for a professional workload, there's no reason to spend that kind of money for a VIDEO CARD.  I remember when I could get a good gaming card for _under_ $500CAD.  It wasn't that long ago either because I paid $490CAD for my XFX RX 5700 XT.

Having used both GeForce and Radeon cards in the past, there's no way that I'd pay $200 more for an RTX 4080 over the RX 7900 XTX because I know that the gaming experience is the same regardless of whether the box is red or green.  It's like trying to tell if the GPU in your phone is Adreno or Imagination.  Yeah, good luck with that.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 7, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> Problem with facts is the 4070ti is 50% more expensive than the 3080 where was this mentioned? They still stick to US prices in their conclusion. They should've instead just link the conclusion to a price, at xxx it's good beyond xxx it's stupid.
> 
> But from what I've seen people are smart, all new cards are not selling and are available at their suggested prices.


So the reviews are supposed to include VAT?  Not all countries have a VAT.  I live in the US and I pay no sales tax.


----------



## efikkan (Jan 7, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> This is a big reason the reason that I chose the RX 6800 XT over the RTX 3080.  That 6GB VRAM difference is HUGE and 10GB was not enough VRAM for a GPU with that level of potency.  Down the road, it would end the card's usefulness far too early.


RTX 4070 Ti with its "measly" 12 GB has already put others with much more VRAM to shame, like RX 6800/6900 XT with 16 GB or RTX 3090 with 24 GB. None of these will all of a sudden start to scale better again in the future.
As I've said before, I don't care how much VRAM people "feel" a card needs, the facts matter, which is evident in the benchmarking.



Why_Me said:


> So the reviews are supposed to include VAT?  Not all countries have a VAT.  I live in the US and I pay no sales tax.


The only measure that makes sense across countries and over time is US MSRP, the other countries' local MSRP is pretty much proportional to this with their respective VAT and toll rates. Prices in stores will vary over time, so this would affect the conclusions of the reviews.


----------



## Avro Arrow (Jan 7, 2023)

efikkan said:


> RTX 4070 Ti with its "measly" 12 GB has already put others with much more VRAM to shame, like RX 6800/6900 XT with 16 GB or RTX 3090 with 24 GB. None of these will all of a sudden start to scale better again in the future.


Right, because Radeon cards don't get better with age....  You're either joking, lying or you're new.  


efikkan said:


> As I've said before, I don't care how much VRAM people "feel" a card needs, the facts matter, which is evident in the benchmarking.


Benchmarking is only relevant for TODAY, not for tomorrow.  Did anyone foresee that Far Cry 6 would need 11GB of VRAM to use the high-quality textures?  I sure as hell didn't.  I've been building PCs since 1988 and the biggest lesson that I've learnt is that the future comes a lot faster than you expect it to.  There's no way to make anything last forever but that doesn't mean longevity is irrelevant.  Hell, my old R9 Fury would still be able to do modern titles if it weren't hamstrung by the fact that it only has 4GB of VRAM.  Sure, it's HBM and it can do some things that no card with only 4GB can do but not much.  AMD would've done much better with it if it had 6 or 8GB of GDDR5 and it would've been cheaper too.  The RX 580, a card that is actually slower than the R9 Fury can be had with 8GB of VRAM so it would've been a real boon if the R9 Fury had more.  That taught me to never disregard the size of the VRAM buffer because you never know what's coming.  Games might want to use more and more VRAM (in fact, might isn't the word because they WILL) and having not enough VRAM with a fast enough GPU might send a card to the boneyard before its time.

When the RX 5700 XT has 8GB of VRAM, you can't tell me that the RTX 3080, a card that's WAY more powerful, is good enough with 10.  Hell, even the RTX 3060 could be had with 12GB.


efikkan said:


> The only measure that makes sense across countries and over time is US MSRP, the other countries' local MSRP is pretty much proportional to this with their respective VAT and toll rates. Prices in stores will vary over time, so this would affect the conclusions of the reviews.


Yes, that's true.  This is why we tend to use American pricing when we discuss.  I'm not an American but I still use American pricing because it's all relative anyway.  If an RTX 4080 costs more in the USA, it will cost more in Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.



W1zzard said:


> Where can I find a 3080 for $550? Old cards are very relevant indeed, but it all comes down to pricing. RX 6800 non-XT is a great option with fantastic price/performance if you can find it at $500 or below


I still remember seeing the ASRock Radeon RX 6800 XT Phantom Gaming D on newegg for $515USD.  Considering what I paid for mine, I wanted to kick myself in the balls!


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 7, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> I still remember seeing the ASRock Radeon RX 6800 XT Phantom Gaming D on newegg for $515USD. Considering what I paid for mine, I wanted to kick myself in the balls!


Yeah that was when AMD AIBs were freaking out because they had tons of stock and AMD told them what new-gen will bring


----------



## Avro Arrow (Jan 7, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Yeah that was when AMD AIBs were freaking out because they had tons of stock and AMD told them what new-gen will bring


It would appear that ASRock was freaking out the most because they had the lowest prices.  Although they were also the "new kids on the block" when it comes to video cards so they might have overreacted, much to the delight of the consumers.  For me though, I paid way too much for my RX 6800 XT because I wanted a reference model.  Being around as long as I have makes you see the first gaming Radeon reference model without a blower cooler is seen as a momentous occasion!  I'm sure you understand what I mean.


----------



## efikkan (Jan 7, 2023)

Avro Arrow said:


> Right, because Radeon cards don't get better with age....


Well, they don't. Not relative to the competition at least.
This "fine wine" BS is a total myth that has existed at least since the Radeon 200/300 generation.
Remember the Fury cards? They had less memory, but fanboys insisted the HBM was so fast that it would make up for it.
Soon after, with Radeon RX 480/580, it was supposed to crush the counterpart (GTX 1060), and be so much better in the long run. (but it never materialized)
Then with Vega we kept hearing the same claims again, more power to be unleashed "soon", thanks to mystical drivers and somehow being "better designed for DirectX 12" (a claim which circulated for all of the above, without any evidence to support it).

So no, I'm not new to this dance.
I've actually been following it for a couple of decades, and I've seen the BS-circle from fanboys so many times. And as anyone with deeper knowledge of computer graphics, I see through this BS instantly.

So in all honesty, would you rather have a RX 6900 XT (16 GB) over a RTX 4070 Ti 12 GB? (assuming both free) Thinking the older GPU with more VRAM would be more "future proof" would be foolish.



Avro Arrow said:


> Benchmarking is only relevant for TODAY, not for tomorrow.


The fundamental characteristics of a GPU will not change with new games. Rendering a mesh of x polygons will still need x performance, rendering a texture of size x will still require x amount of bandwidth. What changes with new games is how they utilize the hardware, not the hardware characteristics themselves.



Avro Arrow said:


> Games might want to use more and more VRAM (in fact, might isn't the word because they WILL) and having not enough VRAM with a fast enough GPU might send a card to the boneyard before its time.


By the time a well balanced GPU runs out of VRAM, it's no longer capable of rendering 60+ FPS at that detail level anyways (and it's possible dropped driver support too).



Avro Arrow said:


> When the RX 5700 XT has 8GB of VRAM, you can't tell me that the RTX 3080, a card that's WAY more powerful, is good enough with 10.  Hell, even the RTX 3060 could be had with 12GB.


Completely different architectures.
If you knew how GPUs managed memory, you wouldn't ask the question this way to begin with. GPUs accesses memory in large blocks, many of which can be losslessly compressed on the fly, especially temporary buffers which are large but mostly "empty" (or are partially emptied thanks to tiled rendering, etc.). All modern GPU do compression, but Nvidia has had an upper hand in this effort, and has improved the technology with every generation. So you can't do an apples-to-apples comparison like this. And allocated VRAM isn't the same as needed VRAM.
As I always say when people bring up the VRAM concern; the truth is in the benchmarks, that's the only way you can discern whether a GPU has enough VRAM or not. The actual VRAM management happens way too quickly to even observe in real time. The only thing we can observe (without debug hardware) is the symptoms of too little VRAM, which is a total collapse in frame rate. So whenever you see a GPU still scale fine in 4K, and even scales further with OC, then it's not out of VRAM.

RTX 3060 has "too much" VRAM, this is a result of the memory configuration of the die, cutting it half would be too little. E.g. RTX 3070 Ti scales fine with just 8 GB.


----------



## bug (Jan 8, 2023)

efikkan said:


> Well, they don't. Not relative to the competition at least.
> This "fine wine" BS is a total myth that has existed at least since the Radeon 200/300 generation.
> Remember the Fury cards? They had less memory, but fanboys insisted the HBM was so fast that it would make up for it.
> Soon after, with Radeon RX 480/580, it was supposed to crush the counterpart (GTX 1060), and be so much better in the long run. (but it never materialized)
> ...


Wanna bet this is all going to fly right over his head?


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 8, 2023)

A lot of new build threads across the net these past few days include a RTX 4070 Ti. So much for the youtubers who were bashing these cards.


----------



## shovenose (Jan 8, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> A lot of new build threads across the net these past few days include a RTX 4070 Ti. So much for the youtubers who were bashing these cards.


Goes to show people will still buy them despite being a bad price.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 8, 2023)

shovenose said:


> Goes to show people will still buy them despite being a bad price.


Link me to a better card at this price point.


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 8, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> So the reviews are supposed to include VAT?  Not all countries have a VAT.  I live in the US and I pay no sales tax.





efikkan said:


> The only measure that makes sense across countries and over time is US MSRP, the other countries' local MSRP is pretty much proportional to this with their respective VAT and toll rates. Prices in stores will vary over time, so this would affect the conclusions of the reviews.


Here's some visual aid:








						World map - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 8, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> Here's some visual aid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously all those other countries don't matter.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 8, 2023)

Xex360 said:


> Here's some visual aid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess by that logic I should use rmb as that’s the currency used by most people or inr?


----------



## heflys20 (Jan 8, 2023)

shovenose said:


> Goes to show people will still buy them despite being a bad price.


They're already creeping up to the $900 price point. I expect the average price will be $950 by next month. They'll still sell though, so it doesn't matter, and Nvidia knows this. Regardless, it's as fast (except in 4k) as a 3090ti (an atrocious card that was marginally faster than the 3080 at 1080/1440. The 3080 came out two years ago), so it's a good deal. At least that's what I've been reading. Didn't the 3090ti come last year, too? I feel sorry for anyone who paid that initial $2000.


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I guess by that logic I should use rmb as that’s the currency used by most people or inr?



Strictly speaking, if you're applying logic, where is the largest % demographic registered IP from on TPU. Is it US ($), Europe (euro), or elsewhere?

Sticking with the dollar value is sensible as that is used globally for trade reasons.


----------



## Why_Me (Jan 8, 2023)

heflys20 said:


> They're already creeping up to the $900 price point. I expect the average price will be $950 by next month. They'll still sell though, so it doesn't matter, and Nvidia knows this. Regardless, it's as fast (except in 4k) as a 3090ti (an atrocious card that was marginally faster than the 3080 at 1080/1440. The 3080 came out two years ago), so it's a good deal. At least that's what I've been reading. Didn't the 3090ti come last year, too? I feel sorry for anyone who paid that initial $2000.





			https://pcpartpicker.com/product/9bnypg/msi-ventus-3x-geforce-rtx-4070-ti-12-gb-video-card-rtx-4070-ti-ventus-3x-12g
		




			https://pcpartpicker.com/product/QX92FT/msi-ventus-3x-oc-geforce-rtx-4070-ti-12-gb-video-card-rtx-4070-ti-ventus-3x-12g-oc


----------



## Xex360 (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I guess by that logic I should use rmb as that’s the currency used by most people or inr?


The logic goes like this, each country has its own pricing. 

Keep throwing US MSRP is misleading, a better way would be to mention a price range (currency doesn't matter, maybe $ and €) within which the card is interesting say 500~700€/$ (final price). Another way just to compare it to other products, and then depending on the pricing potential buyers can choose.

The irony is, you already did all the hard work (and are among the best if not the best out there), you gave us all the data points we need to have a really good picture of the 4070ti, but conclusion was disconnected from reality.


----------



## heflys20 (Jan 8, 2023)

Why_Me said:


> https://pcpartpicker.com/product/9bnypg/msi-ventus-3x-geforce-rtx-4070-ti-12-gb-video-card-rtx-4070-ti-ventus-3x-12g
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad your links link to newegg, cause that's what I was looking at:









						GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Graphics Card with 12GB DDR6 | Newegg.com - Newegg.com
					

Buy GIGABYTE GeForce RTX 4070 Ti AERO OC 12G Graphics Card, 3x WINDFORCE Fans, 12GB 192-bit GDDR6X, GV-N407TAERO OC-12GD Video Card with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				












						GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Graphics Card with 12GB DDR6 | Newegg.com - Newegg.com
					

Buy GIGABYTE AORUS GeForce RTX 4070 Ti MASTER 12G Graphics Card, 3x WINDFORCE Fans, 12GB 192-bit GDDR6X, GV-N407TAORUS M-12GD Video Card with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				












						MSI Suprim GeForce RTX 4070 Ti Video Card RTX 4070 Ti SUPRIM 12G - Newegg.com
					

Buy MSI Suprim GeForce RTX 4070 Ti 12GB GDDR6X PCI Express 4.0 Video Card RTX 4070 Ti SUPRIM 12G with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				












						MSI RTX 4070 Ti Graphics Card with 12GB DDR6 | Newegg.com - Newegg.com
					

Buy MSI Gaming (MSI) GeForce RTX 4070 Ti 12GB GDDR6X PCI Express 4.0 Video Card RTX 4070 Ti GAMING X TRIO 12G with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!




					www.newegg.com
				




Like I said. Price is slowly creeping up. Both the 4080 and 4090 have jumped way past their MSRP. Am I supposed to think the 4070ti is going to be different?


----------



## the54thvoid (Jan 8, 2023)

@W1zzard - you love charts. Here's a simple one you could use to register the price. A linear point graph with model (or closest equivalent) and year. That way, you can plot the price variations of the model equivalent. Steve at GN has this on his 4080 review:






It doesn't even need to be inflation adjusted as year-on year figures reduce the impact.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 8, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> @W1zzard - you love charts. Here's a simple one you could use to register the price. A linear point graph with model (or closest equivalent) and year. That way, you can plot the price variations of the model equivalent. Steve at GN has this on his 4080 review:
> 
> View attachment 278143
> 
> It doesn't even need to be inflation adjusted as year-on year figures reduce the impact.


MSRP is meaningless, but good chart to make people angry about MSRP price changes



the54thvoid said:


> Strictly speaking, if you're applying logic, where is the largest % demographic registered IP from on TPU. Is it US ($), Europe (euro), or elsewhere?
> 
> Sticking with the dollar value is sensible as that is used globally for trade reasons.


It is US by a small margin over Europe, 10% from China, then rest of the world



Xex360 said:


> Keep throwing US MSRP is misleading


I avoid using MSRPs where possible. I look up every price point for every card before the reviews (Newegg US, Amazon US, eBay US / buy now / reputable seller)  But for cards that are going on sale the day after the reviews there is no real pricing data (how convenient)


----------



## nguyen (Jan 8, 2023)

How about a calculator where visitors can enter actual prices and it output fps/currency?


----------



## crimina| (Jan 8, 2023)

the54thvoid said:


> @W1zzard - you love charts. Here's a simple one you could use to register the price. A linear point graph with model (or closest equivalent) and year. That way, you can plot the price variations of the model equivalent. Steve at GN has this on his 4080 review:
> 
> View attachment 278143
> 
> It doesn't even need to be inflation adjusted as year-on year figures reduce the impact.


Great chart. Best of any reviewer. That alone should piss off every buyer.

If all reviews showed that and emphasized how bad pricing was and reflected that in their conclusion, Nvidia might get a clue. I mean Nvidia did kind of listen to the bad press by unlaunching the 4080 12gb, so it does prove bad PR matters.


----------



## The Quim Reaper (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> MSRP is meaningless to product shills like us, who get everything supplied free...



Fixed for accuracy.

You people need to start reading the fucking room.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 8, 2023)

The Quim Reaper said:


> Fixed for accuracy.
> 
> You people need to start reading the fucking room.


Huh? These companies deceive you with fake MSRPs and sell their product at higher prices and want press to still report MSRPs. and I use actual market prices instead of MSRPs and you say I'm doing the wrong thing?


----------



## N3M3515 (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> Huh? These companies deceive you with fake MSRPs and sell their product at higher prices and want press to still report MSRPs. and I use actual market prices instead of MSRPs and you say I'm doing the wrong thing?


The ratio of people disliking the price of this new gen and complaining about it vs ones like you that just say EDITORS CHOICE is wayyyyy wayyyyy in favor of the former. Yeah ignorant/rich people will still buy that's just sad but that's the way it is. If enough people buy at these prices amd and nvidia will still keep upping them. That said, none of that is an excuse or justification for your those price hikes, your award, if you put an award there that *MUST MEAN SOMETHING. *

What if you for example say:

EDITORS CHOICE IN:
-Noise and thermals
-Power comsumption
-Overclocking potential
-Features
-Performance over last generation

GARBAGE CHOICE IN:
-Price

I assure you no one would complain about your award.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 8, 2023)

N3M3515 said:


> The ratio of people disliking the price of this new gen and complaining about it vs ones like you that just say EDITORS CHOICE is wayyyyy wayyyyy in favor of the former.


I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is very high indeed. But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


----------



## LFaWolf (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is very high indeed. But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


You meant a new card, before someone jumps in and say buy used of whatever gpu.


----------



## crimina| (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is very high indeed. But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


You could say that for any price card. Doesn’t mean every card should get Editor’s Choice. Price should impact how a product is viewed.
Imagine a a guy who reviews cars gives every car Editor’s Choice… that would be laughable. 
That should apply to any type product you are reviewing.


----------



## W1zzard (Jan 8, 2023)

LFaWolf said:


> You meant a new card, before someone jumps in and say buy used of whatever gpu.


Including used



crimina| said:


> You could say that for any price card.


At a certain point the price/performance of competing products will be better. Right now this is not the case for 4070 Ti, unless you want to go 6800 non-XT, or you can find a 3080 for $500-550


----------



## bug (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is very high indeed. But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


And that's probably the crux of the issue: you look at this from the perspective of people that _must_ buy. But irl for every person that must buy, there are probably four other that will simply hold on to their current GPU instead.
That's what irks people. On the other hand, you have no means to gauge how many people are ok with this price (or at least don't outright dismiss it), so you're actually doing the best you can do.


----------



## Lightofhonor (Jan 8, 2023)

bug said:


> And that's probably the crux of the issue: you look at this from the perspective of people that _must_ buy. But irl for every person that must buy, there are probably four other that will simply hold on to their current GPU instead.
> That's what irks people. On the other hand, you have no means to gauge how many people are ok with this price (or at least don't outright dismiss it), so you're actually doing the best you can do.


So be fair it says Editors Choice, not Must Buy/Have.


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## bug (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is very high indeed. But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


Do you think it would be feasible to make those badges into links that send people to a page that explain what each badge means?


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## N3M3515 (Jan 8, 2023)

W1zzard said:


> I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is very high indeed. But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


You completely ignored this:

What if you for example say:

EDITORS CHOICE IN:
-Noise and thermals
-Power comsumption
-Overclocking potential
-Features
-Performance over last generation

GARBAGE CHOICE IN:
-Price

I assure you no one would complain about your award.



W1zzard said:


> If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


Nothing, too expensive for the performance they give.


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## Why_Me (Jan 8, 2023)

People gripe about the price of this card yet a lot of them are the same ones who act like 4K is mainstream.  The only place 4K seems to be mainstream is tech sites such as this one.  Fact of the matter is the higher resolution you game at the more you're going to spend on your gpu if you play AAA games. 

This card is geared for peeps who want a high rate of FPS at 1440P and it does just that for $800+ USD.


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## W1zzard (Monday at 6:59 AM)

N3M3515 said:


> You completely ignored this:
> 
> What if you for example say:
> 
> ...


I thought it is obvious that the +- list at the start of the conclusion obviously still applies? You're saying "paste it after the award, once again" ? that doesn't make much sense to me.



bug said:


> Do you think it would be feasible to make those badges into links that send people to a page that explain what each badge means?


Absolutely, that's a great idea and I keep forgetting about implementing it



N3M3515 said:


> Nothing, too expensive for the performance they give.


Cool, now that @N3M3515 doesn't want my money, any other takers?



Lightofhonor said:


> So be fair it says Editors Choice, not Must Buy/Have.


Indeed, when I came up with the naming of these awards I felt that not a single product exists on the planet that you "Must Buy" or "Must Have". We're all here in a hobbyist, luxury segment


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## PenguinBelly (Monday at 7:38 AM)

Hard pass.  Not just this one but everything from AMD and NV this generation.  Not that I can't spend but I do not want to give to these greedy corporations.  Consumers should vote with our wallets or they will go for more the next time.


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## claes (Monday at 6:12 PM)

W1zzard said:


> Cool, now that @N3M3515 doesn't want my money, any other takers?


Count me in!


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## crimina| (Monday at 7:43 PM)

W1zzard said:


> Including used
> 
> 
> At a certain point the price/performance of competing products will be better. Right now this is not the case for 4070 Ti, unless you want to go 6800 non-XT, or you can find a 3080 for $500-550


Funny you say that, I actually just sold a 3080 for $575.


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## N3M3515 (Monday at 9:33 PM)

W1zzard said:


> If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


Also, one thing is free money, and other entirely different is money one has worked hard for. But since money does not grow on trees or is given away....

But as is said, the market is fucked for people with financial awareness, that don't like to throw money away for things that are not worth it. I LOVE gaming, but not enough to spend considerably more ON THE SAME TIER i bought last time, i would consider spending more if i was going to go up a tier or several tiers(just like i did with gtx 1060 ------>rx 6800 xt). Let's say i want the replacement of the 6800xt/3080, that would be the 4080/7900xtx, i would have to spend +$500 or +$300 more, *and would be in the same tier i was last gen. WTF?*

As long as enough people buys the hyper inflated prices(that do not correspond to inflation), amd and nvidia will keep pushing up.


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## Why_Me (Monday at 10:04 PM)

N3M3515 said:


> Also, one thing is free money, and other entirely different is money one has worked hard for. But since money does not grow on trees or is given away....
> 
> But as is said, the market is fucked for people with financial awareness, that don't like to throw money away for things that are not worth it. I LOVE gaming, but not enough to spend considerably more ON THE SAME TIER i bought last time, i would consider spending more if i was going to go up a tier or several tiers(just like i did with gtx 1060 ------>rx 6800 xt). Let's say i want the replacement of the 6800xt/3080, that would be the 4080/7900xtx, i would have to spend +$500 or +$300 more, *and would be in the same tier i was last gen. WTF?*
> 
> As long as enough people buys the hyper inflated prices(that do not correspond to inflation), amd and nvidia will keep pushing up.


Speaking of tiers .. which btw is useless ... everyone knows you go by the benchmarks, not the tiers.


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## crimina| (Monday at 10:20 PM)

Why_Me said:


> Speaking of tiers .. which btw is useless ... everyone knows you go by the benchmarks, not the tiers.


Why are you so eager to defend Nvidia's pricing? Are you anti-consumer... lol

And tiers aren't useless. Otherwise even Nvidia wouldn't have back tracked on calling the 4070Ti the 4080 12GB. They knew from the backlash that the name and tier mattered.


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## ThrashZone (Monday at 10:26 PM)

W1zzard said:


> I don't "just say Editor's Choice". I spend hours writing a long conclusion that covers all aspects of the product, and I think everyone agrees that 4070 Ti is a really good product? All the drama is about the price, which is* very high indeed.* But the fact is that there is no alternative right now. If I give you 800 bucks today, what's best card that you can buy?


Hi,
Now that is clearer than absolute


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## bug (Wednesday at 10:11 AM)

crimina| said:


> Why are you so eager to defend Nvidia's pricing? Are you anti-consumer... lol
> 
> And tiers aren't useless. Otherwise even Nvidia wouldn't have back tracked on calling the 4070Ti the 4080 12GB. They knew from the backlash that the name and tier mattered.


Tiers _are_ useless. They do not actually exist.
Back when we had 3 SKUs per generation, it was an easy mental exercise to put them in 3 separate buckets/tiers. Now we simply have way more than 3 SKUs (and crazy prices) and people are spending an extraordinary amount of energy trying to fit everything back into tiers. Instead of looking at the benchmarks and deciding whether they are wiling to pay the asking price for that.

It becomes even more hilarious when, besides tiers, people try to label GPUs based on the number printed on the physical chip and the amount of locked/unlocked hardware behind that.


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## the54thvoid (Wednesday at 10:16 AM)

I had posted but deleted it as my arithmatic was off. Effectively, i was referencing the price on Nvidia's UK site, where it states the TUF card is £799.

It's not available at that price but is currently £899. £100 mark-up.


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## N3M3515 (Wednesday at 1:59 PM)

bug said:


> Tiers _are_ useless. They do not actually exist.
> Back when we had 3 SKUs per generation, it was an easy mental exercise to put them in 3 separate buckets/tiers. Now we simply have way more than 3 SKUs (and crazy prices) and people are spending an extraordinary amount of energy trying to fit everything back into tiers. Instead of looking at the benchmarks and deciding whether they are wiling to pay the asking price for that.
> 
> It becomes even more hilarious when, besides tiers, people try to label GPUs based on the number printed on the physical chip and the amount of locked/unlocked hardware behind that.


All you said there promotes confusion and price hiking, don't know why since i do not think you benefit from it but heh.


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## crimina| (Wednesday at 2:09 PM)

bug said:


> Tiers _are_ useless. They do not actually exist.
> Back when we had 3 SKUs per generation, it was an easy mental exercise to put them in 3 separate buckets/tiers. Now we simply have way more than 3 SKUs (and crazy prices) and people are spending an extraordinary amount of energy trying to fit everything back into tiers. Instead of looking at the benchmarks and deciding whether they are wiling to pay the asking price for that.
> 
> It becomes even more hilarious when, besides tiers, people try to label GPUs based on the number printed on the physical chip and the amount of locked/unlocked hardware behind that.


We can agree to diagree, but even Nvidia doesn't agree with you on that.

Otherwise, like I said, backlash wouldn't have forced Nvidia to unlaunch the 4080 12GB.


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## bug (Wednesday at 2:39 PM)

N3M3515 said:


> All you said there promotes confusion and price hiking, don't know why since i do not think you benefit from it but heh.


All I have said is that "tiers" are an abstract construct of our minds instinctively trying to dumb everything down and people should concentrate on actual product and benchmarks instead. I don't know how that is promoting either confusion or price hiking.

And the way that benefits me is me spending $0 on video cards since 2016.


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## N3M3515 (Wednesday at 3:19 PM)

bug said:


> All I have said is that "tiers" are an abstract construct of our minds instinctively trying to dumb everything down


That's wrong, the names of gpus indicate the tier, nothing complicated about it x50, x60, x70, x80, x90. Very simple.


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## bug (Wednesday at 3:51 PM)

N3M3515 said:


> That's wrong, the names of gpus indicate the tier, nothing complicated about it x50, x60, x70, x80, x90. Very simple.


And why is some random number on the box indicative of the tier? Why not actual performance? Why not power draw? Why not price?

Once again, "tier" is just a (lame) way to reduce a multi-dimensional problem to a 1-dimension problem.


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## N3M3515 (Wednesday at 5:05 PM)

bug said:


> And why is some random number on the box indicative of the tier? Why not actual performance?


It's very weird that you ask that, tier corelates to performance, you don't need to see the actual performance to know that a x70 is faster than a x60, what you need the benchmark for is to see how much faster one is to the other and if *THE PRICE* justifies it.


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## cvearl (Wednesday at 6:34 PM)

AnotherReader said:


> Given its price, I was expecting it to be slower than the 7900 XT. Still, given that it's as fast as the 3090, it will sell well, and put pressure on AMD to lower the price of the 7900 XT.



Locally they recieved hundreds in my city and only sold a handful LOL.

In rasterization it is only 20% faster than a 6800XT/3080. It's 10% slower in Raster than a 7900XT and 10% faster in RT (excluding Control and Cyberpunk) than a 7900XT. Honestly the 4070ti and 7900XT should both be $750 - $800 but they are sitting between $850 and $1000. No thanks. I will wait it out with my 6800XT.

Clearly though... the gap has closed between AMD and nVidia in the high end. At the same price these would both be great options but they need to drop at least $100.


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