# Aio vs custom cooling



## gasolin (Jun 18, 2021)

Often when we see linus or JayzTwoCents  build a pc they often use custom cooling instead of an aio

Sometimes it's because they build in a small case and need as short tubes as possible, sometimes it's just because custom water cooling cools better

But how, how does a custom water cooling cool better than an aio ?


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## Timelessest (Jun 18, 2021)

If you use custom water cooling with the CPU and GPU then you will much better performance and that's because GPU are just like CPU air coolers. Therefore, the heat from the GPU interferes with CPU's AIO. In contrast, with custom water cooling most of the heat is absorbed by the water. Finally, with custom water cooling you have 2 radiators instead of one.


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## gasolin (Jun 18, 2021)

But who does custom watercooling cool better than an aio

When doing custom water cooling you don't need 2 radiators for a cpu and gpu


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## Valantar (Jun 18, 2021)

gasolin said:


> But who does custom watercooling cool better than an aio
> 
> When doing custom water cooling you don't need 2 radiators for a cpu and gpu


To the extent that it does (that depends on the water loop as well as the AIO - some current AIOs are excellent (Arctic, EK in particular)), there are some reasons:

Better cold plates with larger microfin arrays, allowing for more efficient heat transfer to the liquid
Cooper rather than aluminium radiators, leading to better heat dissipation for the same size radiator
Also often thicker radiators
Higher flow rate due to more powerful pumps, again aiding dissipation
(possibly) higher volume of liquid in the loop, taking longer to reach heat soak/thermal equilibrium, leading to perceived better performance in short workloads
Also:

AIOs use cheap, low flow rate pumps
AIOs use cheap, generic and not particularly good cold plates
AIOs typically use cheap, shitty fans focused on aesthetics rather than performance
Still, the differences aren't that huge. A good AIO is an excellent cooler. The reason you can cool a CPU and GPU in a small loop is because GPUs are ridiculously easy to watercool, with their heat load spread evenly across a large die and thus allowing for very efficient heat transfer to the liquid. No GPU under 300W really needs more than a 120mm radiator as long as you're fine running it's fan at a moderate rpm. Just look at the thermal and noise performance of AMD's reference AIO GPUs (Fury X, Vega LC, also likely the rumored 6900XT LC). CPUs are on the other hand very difficult to cool due to their high thermal density and indirect cooling (having an IHS in between the die and cooler).


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 18, 2021)

Valantar said:


> AIOs typically use cheap, shitty fans focused on aesthetics rather than performance



This honestly depends on the brand of AIO itself. EK supply their Vardar fans which are pretty decent but loud at high RPMs. Arctic have their P12s or P14s which are cheap but really really good. Even most upper tier Corsair AIOs now come with ML fans which perform fairly well though maybe not as good as their original SP fans but a lot quieter due to the bearing. BeQuiet use their own Pure Wings fans which i have no experience with but are probably pretty good. Fractal with their Dynamic X2 or Venturi fans  -- again excellent fans. Maybe Coolermaster or Enermax supply their AIOs with crap fans.


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## ThrashZone (Jun 18, 2021)

Hi,
About the best thing 2 cents does is custom piping 
Reality is an aio will save you a lot of time and money, have a 5 year warranty and if goes bad you get a new one for rma shipping costs one way
These things are not custom loop options lol


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## mrthanhnguyen (Jun 21, 2021)

You can lower water temp of a custom loop by adding more radiator and lower cpu or gpu temp by using a good waterblock. AIO cant do that. However, if between 360mm AIO and 360mm custom loop, they are the same thing unless you have a very good waterblock which may yield 5c-7c lower.


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## joemama (Jun 21, 2021)

Other than the radiator/water block difference, custom loops usually have higher liquid flow rate and also more liquid within, the higher flow rate helps transfer the heat to the radiator while the larger liquid volume leads to a higher heat capacity and thus extends the time for to reach thermal equilibrium during heavy load of the CPU/GPU.

I have a simple custom loop myself and it looks awesome, but I gotta say unless you have a lot of money and time to waste, don't get a custom loop.


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## timta2 (Jun 21, 2021)

In my book It's like asking what's better, a stock car or one that has been customized? Car manufacturers use parts that are price conscious and work just fine. Aftermarket parts are often better quality with improved performance, but are more expensive. Of course some people spend fortunes on their cars. A lot of it is what matters to you. 

I bought a used custom loop kit with a D5 and 360 radiator from a TPU member over a decade ago and it still works great. I think I paid $120 (iirc) for it. Not much more than an AIO then or now.


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## cvaldes (Jun 21, 2021)

As someone who has moved from AIO cooling (both CPU and GPU) to a custom loop, I have some observations.

First of all, the volume/flow rate of the cooling liquid is not particularly important. I've ran my custom loop at a very slow pump speed while using the same fans (Noctua NF-F12) as I've used on AIO CLC loops (I always swap out the AIO manufacturer's bundled fans with Noctuas so I'm comparing apples to apples concerning the fans). Increasing the pump RPMs on the custom loop doesn't affect the temperature in any significant way.

Even using the same Noctua fans (high static pressure) on the same size radiator (120mm, 240mm, 360mm) the custom loop cools better. This appears to be largely due to the limitations of the cooling block design in AIO loops versus custom loops. In the latter, there is typically no pump in the cooling block so the coolant channels can be designed to provide better flow and coverage.

It's worth pointing out that a pump in a cooling block also generates its own heat. Asetek holds the patent on the cooling block mounted pump. On a custom loop, the pump is often a discrete loop component.

Thus a pumpless CPU cooling block paired with a 120mm radiator on a custom loop should run cooler than an AIO CLC with a 120mm radiator.

There's also the difference in radiator design between AIO units and custom loop radiators. It appears the radiator design is significant despite the fact that they look nearly identical externally. This is on top of the radiator thickness which apparently is a big deal (more cooling area).

For a while I used the NZXT Kraken G12 bracket on an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER Founders Edition card and the EVGA 120mm AIO CLC cooler. Later, I modded an EVGA 240mm AIO CLC cooler to accept the Kraken G12 bracket. That worked well from a heat dissipation standpoint. Today I have an Alphacool GPU block on the 2070 SUPER paired with a 240mm radiator.

Again the biggest difference is the cooling block design followed by radiator design. The NZXT Kraken G12 solution is really a hack. It only cools the graphics processor silicon, again with a cooling block that has a built-in motor. You still have a 92mm fan blowing air on the GDDR4 chips and VRM. The Alphacool GPU cooling block provides liquid cooling for most of the key silicon on the PCB.

I am not doing any significant overclocking either with my CPU (Ryzen 5600X) nor GPU (2070 SUPER). The performance between the AIO cooled system and custom loop systems are essentially the same.

There are three main differences between AIO loops and custom loops. First, the radiator fans in the custom loop run slower to provide adequate cooling. Second, the Alphacool GPU block is thin enough for me to use the graphics card in an SFF case (NZXT H210) whereas the NZXT Kraken G12 hack wouldn't have worked. Third is the cost.

I read a comment by another TPU reader than implementing a custom cooling loop on a mid-tier GPU like a GeForce xx70 series card isn't cost effective. Now that I've done it myself, I completely agree (and I paid $500 MSRP for my 2070 SUPER a year ago, not today's crazy scalper prices). I learned a lot moving from a rather ordinary AIO-cooled micro-ATX build to a custom-cooled mini-ITX SFF build while spending a bunch of money without gaining anything but acoustic performance. But at the time, the 2070 SUPER was what I had (and it had already been modded for AIO cooling).

From a price-performance perspective, I should have just stuck with the EVGA AIO CLC 120mm cooler for the Ryzen 5600X and used the full block Alphacool Eiswolf AIO 240mm cooler on the 2070 SUPER rather than the NZXT Kraken G12 kludge.

But hey, I have a decent gaming build with aRGB cooling blocks in a pretty case. That's worth something; it helped keep my mind occupied during the pandemic lockdown.

I did take my recent custom cooling experience to a newer build. Again, there is a steep cost associated with custom cooling. And there simply aren't that many AIO-type cooling solutions for GPUs like the NZXT Kraken G12.


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## hat (Jun 21, 2021)

gasolin said:


> Often when we see linus or JayzTwoCents  build a pc they often use custom cooling instead of an aio
> 
> Sometimes it's because they build in a small case and need as short tubes as possible, sometimes it's just because custom water cooling cools better
> 
> But how, how does a custom water cooling cool better than an aio ?


Mostly for the same reason a custom built PC can be better than a prebuilt. With an AIO, you get what you get, and it does a decent job, but the components aren't going to be the greatest. The pump may not be as strong as the pump you might choose to put in your custom loop. Most (but not all) AIO radiators are aluminum, while you would usually choose a copper radiator for your custom loop. Your custom loop will also probably have a reservoir, something AIO units lack. Some time ago there was somebody who added a reservoir to his AIO, I believe a Corsair H50, and just doing that alone improved his temperatures considerably.


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## FireFox (Jun 21, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Finally, with custom water cooling you have 2 radiators instead of one.


In part it's true but not always works that way, some people use a single Rad to cool both, CPU and GPU


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## Jetster (Jun 21, 2021)

Simple answer, volume of water and radiator surface area
Have you ever drained a AIO? Not much there


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## xtreemchaos (Jun 21, 2021)

i use a single rad to cool both cpu and gpu and it isnt a thick one and coolness is confirmed, aio vs custom loop, water vol and speed is better on a custom loop but a custom loop costs a hell of a lot more than a aio but a aio do a very good job so id say its down to what you like best.


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## FireFox (Jun 21, 2021)

xtreemchaos said:


> a custom loop costs a hell of a lot more than an aio


Indeed.
My current Custom Loop costed €1000+


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jun 21, 2021)

gasolin said:


> Often when we see linus or JayzTwoCents  build a pc they often use custom cooling instead of an aio
> 
> Sometimes it's because they build in a small case and need as short tubes as possible, sometimes it's just because custom water cooling cools better
> 
> But how, how does a custom water cooling cool better than an aio ?


For a start custom pumps are better, the pipes are thicker and the radiator's are not made quite so much to a price.


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## R0H1T (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> AIOs typically use cheap, shitty fans focused on aesthetics rather than performance


And yet many of them come with 5-6 years warranty? I mean if cheap, shitty stuff lasts so long then really is it actually that cheap/shitty


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## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

Jetster said:


> Simple answer, volume of water and radiator surface area
> Have you ever drained a AIO? Not much there


Arctic freezer II


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## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> And yet many of them come with 5-6 years warranty? I mean if cheap, shitty stuff lasts so long then really is it actually that cheap/shitty


Hi,
Last I looked corsair for an example used ML series fans on their newer aio's 
ML series are very good fans not cheap I have many non rgb twin packs they were nicely priced too.
Most older were SP series not the greatest but still most these aio's go for quiet not high rpm and noisy



gasolin said:


> Arctic freezer II


I've heard good things about that aio


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## Mussels (Jun 21, 2021)

I can finally help answer this!

1. Custom loops are way quieter. The D5 pump is AMAZING.
2. Having ran two AIO's in a system for a year, i can say a custom loop runs WAY cooler, WAY quieter, and fits in a much smaller case. 
3. GPU support. With the exception of pure GPU cooling on the NZXT G12 (with no modern GPU support,  and no active VRA\ VRM cooling), why aircool your 65W CPU when theres a 300W-400W GPU there? I cant get an AIO to slap onto my 3090's VRMs
4. The sheer customizability. Holy crap i blew a lot of money whenever i changed hardware and the goddamn AIOs would no longer fit, or the hoses were the wrong lengths. Oops sorry, hits your RAM now. New mobo? woops hits the oversized VRM heatsink, gotta go front mounted now. Gotta flip the AIO over to make the hose reach, oops now the temps are 15C higher (yeah, that all happened)

downside: i'm still crying at what i've paid, i resorted to GPU mining on the 3090 to pay for its water cooling upgrade

attached is the pics as i went through all this bullcrap with dual AIOs, , a GPU with an AIO that just goddamn sucked (dual AIO just sucks unless the hose length is perfect) then a CPU AIO starving the air cooled GPU with its stupid custom heatsinks to cool the VRMs, and finally giving in to custom water on the GPU - then realising the 280mm rad i had on the custom loop cant be top mounted because it hits the RAM, and having to get a slim 360mm for the top and a CPU block -.-

I have ADHD (and probably ASD) and random noises like rattling fans drive. me. f*cking. bonkers.
GTX 1080 with a kraken G12 and dual corsair AIO (cool, but noisy AIO pump. could not be oriented or located ANY other way, jammed into the 24 pin power cable and RAM)


AIO GPU - crap hose length, frustrating fan cables, and ofc it leaked.

Admittedly the native AIO GPU and CPU AIO looked SWEEEEET.

3080 leaked, 3090 was the only thing in stock. Air + AIO? yeah 105C VRAM temps said oof.

Lets fight with cooling this bitch when the AIO blocks the cool air intake...

Custom water (mostly second hand parts) for GPU, GPU temps 40C lower. CPU temps... did not like the preheated air.

What i should have caved in and done all along.


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## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

Nzxt kranken is also good. Simple answer, volume of water and radiator surface area,don't apply to them since performance is as good as a equally priced custom water cooling


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## R0H1T (Jun 21, 2021)

Mussels said:


> i changed hardware and the goddamn AIOs would no longer fit


You had the same issue with AM4? Maybe going from 3xx series chipsets to x570 but aren't you glad you don't have to change mobos nearly every year like Intel forced you to?


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## Mussels (Jun 21, 2021)

Oh i forgot, and because AIOs look like this eventually and you cant tell without destroying them





My photo, from a thermaltake 120mm AIO on a 'dead' system i refurbished



R0H1T said:


> You had the same issue with AM4? Maybe going from 3xx series chipsets to x570 but aren't you glad you don't have to change mobos nearly every year like Intel forced you to?


Not the socket directly, i mean the mobo would move where the socket is and the AIO would no longer reach, or it'd hit VRM heatsinks, RAM and so on.


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## damric (Jun 21, 2021)

I did several water builds earlier this year ranging from dirt cheap to expensive.

First, let it be known that you can indeed build a good full custom loop for very little as long as you don't mind waiting a little bit for overseas parts from places like ebay, aliexpress, banggood, ect.

Example: my folding rig:

Vinyl Hose (I swear it's identical the EK stuff) from HW store: $8.
Bykski CPU block, ebay: $20
240mm aluminum radiators, ebay: $17
AE-YOLOWIN-WP, Aliexpress: $15
Generic GPU block, ebay: $15
Multipack fittings, ebay: $15
Barrow Reservoir, ppcs: $15
1 gallon distilled water, grocery store: $2

Total: $107, and you could shave off even more money if you glue on the cheapest of all water blocks from banggood.com.

Second, it's possible to take old AIOs and mod the hell out of them because they actually use plastic barbs. I was very happy to take some 3/8" vinyl hose and a mason jar and improve an old H50 (copper rad) that still had a working pump. Now it has a reservoir and clear tubing for less than $10.

In my main rig I spent much more on more extravagant stuff like a 1080mm copper rad, dual D5s, full cover blocks, ect, easily over $500.


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## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

Mussels said:


> I can finally help answer this!
> 
> 1. Custom loops are way quieter. The D5 pump is AMAZING.
> 2. Having ran two AIO's in a system for a year, i can say a custom loop runs WAY cooler, WAY quieter, and fits in a much smaller case.
> ...


 Nr 1 not true

Nzxt kraken x63 and Cooler Master MasterLiquid ML360R RGB has a pump that is silnet you don't notice them at max rpm

My PowerCooler rx 6700 xt red devil stays at below 70c when gaming (depends on the game) and below 60c when not gaming, i don't need to cool it, it's also very silent (silent bios).

I7 10700kf at lower vcore then my i5 10600k at 4.9ghz, i can run my i7 at 5.0ghz but even with a 360mm aio im getting mid 90's or avarage in the early 90's in prime 95 small fft. Custom water cooling a silent pump + Reservoirs alone costs more than a arctic freezer II 360mm aio and it performs really good, although i feel my Nzxt kraken X63 and Cooler Master MasterLiquid ML360R RGB has a more silent pump, i can't see why you wan't to buy what's equal to 3x arctic freezer II 360mm aio's to get a decent custom water cooling for a cpu, unless your rendering every week or have an i9 or ryzen 9 with 12 or 16 cores you want to max out  with a rx 6900xt or rtx 3900 xt and 3-4 high res,high hz monitors


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## Valantar (Jun 21, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> And yet many of them come with 5-6 years warranty? I mean if cheap, shitty stuff lasts so long then really is it actually that cheap/shitty


Lasting for a long time doesn't mean performing well. Doing both is the measure of a good fan. Even cheap sleeve bearings these days can last for 10+ years if run at reasonable speeds in a vertical orientation (sleeve bearings aren't necessarily fans of horizontal fan mounting due to the pressures on the bearing). Brushless DC motors run essentially forever if they're not stressed much and aren't gunked up with dirt and dust. So making a fan that you can stick a 5+ year warranty on is relatively easy. Making one that also delivers good airflow through a radiator, i.e. has sufficient static pressure to push through it while still moving a good amount of air, requires complex design and modelling work. And doing that, while also staying quiet? That's something only the best fans manage. That's where costs are cut, not in the possible lifespan of the fan.



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Last I looked corsair for an example used ML series fans on their newer aio's
> ML series are very good fans not cheap I have many non rgb twin packs they were nicely priced too.
> Most older were SP series not the greatest but still most these aio's go for quiet not high rpm and noisy
> ...


Corsair AIOs are pretty expensive though, and AFAIK only their higher end models use ML fans. The ML fans are good, but loud, so they only hit 2/3 on the great fan checklist. Arctic hands down beats Corsair with the Liquid Freezer series and their P12/P14 fans - those are really close to Noctua levels of performance, and thanks to slightly thicker radiators than most and good cold plates they also perform very well. The EK AIOs are also excellent - largely thanks to far superior cold plates to most - but their Vardar fans are pretty loud.



gasolin said:


> Nr 1 not true
> 
> Nzxt kraken x63 and Cooler Master MasterLiquid ML360R RGB has a pump that is silnet you don't notice them at max rpm
> 
> ...


You're arguing here against something that isn't in the OP's question, nor really relevant to this discussion. Literally everyone here has been plenty clear that custom water cooling is _really expensive_. If someone is willing to pay for the benefits (and hassle) it brings, that's on them. But that's entirely irrelevant to how and why custom water cools better than (most) AIOs. I mean, you say so yourself.

Me, I went custom water for a) silence, and b) size. Once I get my loop bled, I'll have a full loop in a >15l case with a 280mm rad, two fans in the whole system, cooling a 5800X and Fury X (soon to be replaced by a 6800XT or 6900XT). An AIO couldn't do that. I could fit a large GPU in my case and use an AIO instead - and if I was starting from scratch today I likely would - but that's a relative rarity among SFF cases, and I already had the custom loop gear, so that point is moot. I could get a similarly small setup with a modular AIO like those from Alphacool, but ... that's just a custom loop in disguise.



damric said:


> I did several water builds earlier this year ranging from dirt cheap to expensive.
> 
> First, let it be known that you can indeed build a good full custom loop for very little as long as you don't mind waiting a little bit for overseas parts from places like ebay, aliexpress, banggood, ect.
> 
> ...


It's very true that you can get stuff very cheap if you go those routes, though it has a few downsides:
- I'd expect that pump to fail quite soon.
- Generic GPU blocks typically cool only the GPU itself, leaving VRAM and VRMs passively cooled, which can be a problem.
- You've not got any corrosion inhibitor or growth inhibitors listed, so (especially with an alu rad) it seems likely that you'd need significant maintenance on that loop rather soon.
If that's something you're willing to live with though, that's a great solution. And spending more time to save money is after all a huge part of DIY to begin with, so it makes perfect sense. One just has to find the right balance.


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## xtreemchaos (Jun 21, 2021)

heres mine what ive put together on a shoestring.
cpublock new £60.
gpublock and backplate 2/h £60 off ebay.
d5 £50 s/h off ebay.
rad hand me down off customer.
fittings all from china £30 or less for the lot thay are very well made.
pipe 1 new 50cm at £5 off ebay and made up the rest by using bits left over from customers builds
res i brought two from china and made a big one out the 2 £30.
dont laugh i get a good feeling from doing things on the cheap, ok laugh kindly   .


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## Mussels (Jun 21, 2021)

daaaamn, getting an EK block that cheap is awesome


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## R0H1T (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That's something only the best fans manage. That's where costs are cut, not in the possible lifespan of the fan.


I meant to quote the entire post, anyway the point is you really think AIO's are all that bad ~ even the best ones from the likes of Corsair, Arctic, NZXT? And yeah some of them perform really good at their respective prices! Lasting 5 years, or more, is nothing to be scoffed at.


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## xtreemchaos (Jun 21, 2021)

agreed the guy had sold his 1080 and wanted rid so did a buy it now.


Mussels said:


> daaaamn, getting an EK block that cheap is awesome


ps it come with a EK service kit as well i havnt used the kit yet cos the orings ect are still in good order.


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## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

#26

Arctic P12 and P14

I think it's to expensive for my to go custom water cooling, i know it can perform better, but how and why would you spend 3x (or more) the price of a good artic freezer II 360mm aio (if you have a gpu that cools above avarage), normally it's not close to being enought to get custom water cooling for a cpu + gpu for that price of 300 euros (price of 3x arctic 360mm aio's)


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## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Oh i forgot, and because AIOs look like this eventually and you cant tell without destroying them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,
That's mainly why 5 year warranty is the best item for aio's out of all water cooling options 
This type of stuff happens in custom loops as well but warranties are way more complicated.

Otherwise stick with a nice realiable air cooler ;-)


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## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

I've been running WCG for the last few days.. no need for an AIO.. I could see the want for a loop, but AIO? Nah..


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## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

Hey guys! Your ROG victim aka me wants to add his mustard as well. 

My overpriced AIO cooling solution is named ROG Ryujin 240 and cost about 200€ with fans from Noctua, bringing 2000r/pm. I customized mine with Noctua Industrial fans (2*3000r/pm for ~45€ each) just for security cus i have made the xp needing it sometimes over 2000r/pm i live in warm times here, near to the hell.

the fans can be VERY loud but only from 1500-3000r/pm - thats not that often the case.
the pump is non existent for my ears. never was!

it has got several sensors and a display to show some useful stats as well.
My CPU runs @ 53-53-53-53-52-51-50-49 and it's max temp is listed with 100°C via intel. My cooling never let this happen. Max @83°C no matter whats happening.


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## Valantar (Jun 21, 2021)

R0H1T said:


> I meant to quote the entire post, anyway the point is you really think AIO's are all that bad ~ even the best ones from the likes of Corsair, Arctic, NZXT? And yeah some of them perform really good at their respective prices! Lasting 5 years, or more, is nothing to be scoffed at.


I mean, come on. Seriously? I think I know why you didn't quote the whole post: because you can't possibly have read the whole post. This is literally the first sentence of my post:


Valantar said:


> To the extent that it does (that depends on the water loop as well as the AIO - some current AIOs are excellent (Arctic, EK in particular)), there are some reasons:


So please, read before you write. That makes things easier on all of us.

And no, Corsair and NZXT don't make particularly good AIOs. They use off-the-shelf Asetek designs, so they are decidedly middle-of-the-road. They used to be among the best Asetek-made ones, but these days we have other solutions, and Arctic and EK AIOs are in a class of their own.


gasolin said:


> #26
> 
> Arctic P12 and P14
> 
> I think it's to expensive for my to go custom water cooling, i know it can perform better, but how and why would you spend 3x (or more) the price of a good artic freezer II 360mm aio (if you have a gpu that cools above avarage), normally it's not close to being enought to get custom water cooling for a cpu + gpu for that price of 300 euros (price of 3x arctic 360mm aio's)


Am I right in guessing that "#26" is referencing my post #26 above? (Please use the quote/reply function though. Please.) I mean ... have people here just stopped reading today? I assume your vague statement of "Arctic P12 and P14" on a line of its own is supposed to alert me of these fans' existence. But ... the post you're referring to literally contains this:


Valantar said:


> Arctic hands down beats Corsair with the Liquid Freezer series and their P12/P14 fans - those are really close to Noctua levels of performance, and thanks to slightly thicker radiators than most and good cold plates they also perform very well.


So ... what are you trying to say? As I said in my very first post in this thread, there are some _great_ AIOs out there today. Not many, but especially two manufacturers make really good ones, which perform on par with a good custom loop. But those are clearly an exception, and most AIOs are noticeably outperformed by custom loops. That obviously doesn't make the average AIO bad by any means, it's just not quite as good. Which is what this thread is supposed to be about - how and why custom water loops outperform AIOs. Not which is the best value.

You're entirely within your rights to think custom loops are too expensive - I do too, frankly, though I'm already invested so the future price for me is far less - but that has no bearing on why and how custom loops perform better, which was the OP's question. I entirely agree that the value proposition of custom water loops is _terrible_. It's an ultra-premium segment, where you easily pay 2-3-4x the price for a few % better performance and some premium features. But they still generally also perform better than AIOs.


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## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

Hey full loop guys, how often do you top up your loop? Every 6 months or so? Would you run your loop for 5 years without touching it?


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## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Hey full loop guys, how often do you top up your loop? Every 6 months or so? Would you run your loop for 5 years without touching it?


Hi,
I switched to distilled water and biocide and inhibitor+ and it's not a completely sealed loop so I get evaporation so I top off every couple weeks 
Crap ek d5 reservoirs leak at base if completely sealed 

But with hardware upgrades it never make it 6 months without messing with them
I use quick disconnect to help manage upgrades separating cpu and gpu from the loop so draining and filling in minimized.


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## Valantar (Jun 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Hey full loop guys, how often do you top up your loop? Every 6 months or so? Would you run your loop for 5 years without touching it?


I've run a custom loop since 2017, and at the most it sat for ~2 years without being touched (from I got my H200i till I moved last year). It's worth mentioning that some screws on my GPU block were loose in that time, and while it didn't leak (even passed pressure testing after a rebuild) I had some _very_ slow evaporation leading to the levels in the reservoir sinking perhaps 2cm over those two years. I never topped it up after the initial fill/bleed. I'm using EK's "ZMT" supposedly zero-maintenance, zero permeation neoprene tubing though. Since then the loop has been rebuilt, I've removed the pump/res combo in favor of a CPU block with a DDC mount, added QDCs, and I'm currently moving the loop over to my new Meshlicious, so things are changing. I've installed a little EK flow indicator as a "reservoir" (read: bubble catcher) in the loop now, but I don't envision needing to top it up for quite a while once I get it bled.

I've used EK Cryofuel and ... I think it was an Aquatuning fluid? Can't quite remember.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

Awesome!

Thanks fellas


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I've run a custom loop since 2017, and at the most it sat for ~2 years without being touched (from I got my H200i till I moved last year). It's worth mentioning that some screws on my GPU block were loose in that time, and while it didn't leak (even passed pressure testing after a rebuild) I had some _very_ slow evaporation leading to the levels in the reservoir sinking perhaps 2cm over those two years. I never topped it up after the initial fill/bleed. I'm using EK's "ZMT" supposedly zero-maintenance, zero permeation neoprene tubing though. Since then the loop has been rebuilt, I've removed the pump/res combo in favor of a CPU block with a DDC mount, added QDCs, and I'm currently moving the loop over to my new Meshlicious, so things are changing. I've installed a little EK flow indicator as a "reservoir" (read: bubble catcher) in the loop now, but I don't envision needing to top it up for quite a while once I get it bled.
> 
> I've used EK *Cry*ofuel and ... I think it was an Aquatuning fluid? Can't quite remember.


Hi,
Yeah I sheded some tears over acid green so I pass on anything that starts with CRY in it's name lol


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> I switched to distilled water and biocide and inhibitor+ and it's not a completely sealed loop so I get evaporation so I top off every couple weeks
> Crap ek d5 reservoirs leak at base if completely sealed
> 
> ...


to be honest; destilled water is mandatory in any "machines" even in a steamed iron u should use it not in a car only to clean your windows.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

We had a cheap plastic kettle for about 5-7 years. We used it often.. and did very little maintenance. The top edge where the lid sits, the element, is all calcified.. looks a bit gross. Luckily I received a new one for Fathers day 

I honestly don't think even tap water is good to drink. If it did that to my kettle, imagine what your pineal gland looks like


----------



## jaggerwild (Jun 21, 2021)

Custom cooling is Real cooling, AIO'S are not. Aios are a money grab made as cheap as possible.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

They have their place. When I was rocking the H100 when they were new, I slapped 120x38s on it immediately and it outperformed my D14.. by a fair amount.. until permeation kicked in.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> to be honest; destilled water is mandatory in any "machines" even in a steamed iron u should use it not in a car only to clean your windows.


Hi,
Yes it's the easiest fluid to use just need biocide and inhibitor additives so not growth and parts material clashed occur
Most premixes are really a waste I've tried quite a few all have negatives and costs plus shipping aren't cheap either.



freeagent said:


> They have their place. When I was rocking the H100 when they were new, I slapped 120x38s on it immediately and it outperformed my D14.. by a fair amount.. until permeation kicked in.



Best thing about aio's is looks
Large piece of aluminum one can't even see the build 
Worst thing can be the crapware the manages it lol


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I honestly don't think even tap water is good to drink


I depends where u live and your house related physical interior should not be 100s of ages old. (old tubes in the house, beware of lead).

but i drink tap water only. this the most controlled viand we have here. it's stronger controlled than mineralwater ever was.


but it is not suitable for mechanics and machines interior


----------



## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> I mean, come on. Seriously? I think I know why you didn't quote the whole post: because you can't possibly have read the whole post. This is literally the first sentence of my post:
> 
> So please, read before you write. That makes things easier on all of us.
> 
> ...



So which manufacturers makes good aio's ?

What is the difference between a good aio and custom water cooling in temps, i don't often see aio's (no matter brand) compared to a good custom water cooling


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

gasolin said:


> So which manufacturers makes good aio's ?
> 
> What is the difference between a good aio and custom water cooling in temps, i don't often see aio's (no matter brand) compared to a good custom water cooling



ASUS rog ryujin 240 is mine. and i am just happy about not having that "wet contructionsite" inside my case.
3 vents. 2 main and one for the CPU package

it's def. called a "premium" one. and i agree










the video is in portugese language but who cares. u can get a quite good overview


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Best thing about aio's is looks
> Large piece of aluminum one can't even see the build
> Worst thing can be the crapware the manages it lo


I totally agree. In those days I was on 1366 with a hexacore that loved vcore and she was a runner..

I got a good 8-9 months of heavy testing out of it, and it was just after the 10th or 12th month I noticed a drop in capacity.

I rode that downward spiral right to the end.. until it couldn't even cool my brothers 7700K.

I probably wouldn't buy another AIO, though lately I really did consider it more than a few times because 12 cores is not easy to cool when you want to OC..


----------



## damric (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> It's very true that you can get stuff very cheap if you go those routes, though it has a few downsides:
> - I'd expect that pump to fail quite soon.
> - Generic GPU blocks typically cool only the GPU itself, leaving VRAM and VRMs passively cooled, which can be a problem.
> - You've not got any corrosion inhibitor or growth inhibitors listed, so (especially with an alu rad) it seems likely that you'd need significant maintenance on that loop rather soon.
> If that's something you're willing to live with though, that's a great solution. And spending more time to save money is after all a huge part of DIY to begin with, so it makes perfect sense. One just has to find the right balance.


- Pump's been running 24/7 for months, but I do have a backup because I bought 2 since I was skeptical. Honestly I'm more worried about my expensive dual D5s failing in my main rig, but eventually all things do fail.
- Old mobo/RAM sinks FTW 
- I experimented much on additives after researching what chemicals are used in these AIOs, and also industrial and automotive cooling, as well as what I use for my outdoor fountain pumps. I now use a settled of 99.9% silver and a small amount of titanium dioxide for my folding rig. You can see the white residue from the first time I was a bit overzealous with the TiO2. I finally figured out to do a pre-mix gallon with a tiny amount since a little drop goes a long way, and a little more will give the coolant a milky pastel look. Adding a few drops of food coloring can give it a color if desired, but also propylene glycol is the main ingredient of food coloring. Having any mixed metals can lead to galvanic corrosion, but that can take years. I can count many metals in the loop including copper, nickel, aluminum, titanium, cobalt, and silver. On the plus side, metal ions in the distilled water are natural biocides. I got a 1/2lb bag of the TiO2 from bulkapothecary.com for $7. 

My main rig is just pure distilled and two silver kills. No algae yet, and I'm in a very hot and humid climate where algae wants to grow everywhere including the side of your house if you don't treat it.

Also I built that bench-case out of $15 of aluminum angle and my daughter spray painted it neon pink 
The acrylic motherboard tray I found on amazon also for cheap, like $15.
Also found the g1/4 temperature LCD on ebay for $5, and cheap plastic spinner flow sensor for $10.


----------



## FireFox (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Corsair AIOs are pretty expensive though, and AFAIK only their higher end models use ML fans. The ML fans are good, but loud, so they only hit 2/3 on the great fan checklist. Arctic hands down beats Corsair with the Liquid Freezer series and their P12/P14 fans - those are really close to Noctua levels of performance, and thanks to slightly thicker radiators than most and good cold plates they also perform very well. The EK AIOs are also excellent - largely thanks to far superior cold plates to most - but their Vardar fans are pretty loud.


You forgot to mention the Alphacool AIOs which are also excellent.


----------



## Valantar (Jun 21, 2021)

gasolin said:


> So which manufacturers makes good aio's ?
> 
> What is the difference between a good aio and custom water cooling in temps, i don't often see aio's (no matter brand) compared to a good custom water cooling


... Again, did you read at all? Arctic and EK currently make the best AIOs, a significant step above the rest.

As for specific differences between custom and aio, that's not really doable as a general comparison as a custom loop has many parts that affect performance. Different water blocks, radiators, fans, reservoirs (=amount of coolant), pumps,
layouts, number of cooled components... There are millions and millions of possible combinations.



FireFox said:


> You forgot to mention the Alphacool AIOs which are also excellent.


That's true. Though aren't those more or less a pre-assembled open loop with QDCs?


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> I rode that downward spiral right to the end.. until it couldn't even cool my brothers 7700K.




i7 7700k is a lovely flagship! but the only way to handle those heatheads is to destroy them and build them up again.
mine was at the end @5000Ghz and 63°C


----------



## FireFox (Jun 21, 2021)

Valantar said:


> aren't those more or less a pre-assembled open loop with QDCs?


Yes.
I never had an AIO before till Dec 2020 that i bought an *Alphacool Eisbaer LT360,* great perfomance, i was pretty amazed.
They claim that the Radiator is made of Cooper and  also that the cooler bottom is made entirely of copper.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> ASUS rog ryujin 240 is mine. and i am just happy about not having that "wet contructionsite" inside my case.
> 3 vents. 2 main and one for the CPU package
> 
> it's def. called a "premium" one. and i agree
> ...


Hi,
Worst thing about anything from asus is support and warranty 
Bad enough to use asus mother boards and that's where I draw the line on asus products and of course I try very hard to have other extended third party warranty plans from local micro center or I wouldn't even do asus at all unless they were dirt cheap.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Worst thing about anything from asus is support and warranty
> Bad enough to use asus mother boards and that's where I draw the line on asus products and of course I try very hard to have other extended third party warranty plans from local micro center or I wouldn't even do asus at all unless they were dirt cheap.



thats possible, yes! i cannot say the opposite cus everything is still in shape.

but when something goes down the river i just buy a new one, EZ!

and if you want to drive a mercedes you also have to go to a certified workshop and pay 10 times more than necessary.
i guess thats life


----------



## FireFox (Jun 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Worst thing about anything from asus is support and warranty


I dont think it is the same in every country.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 21, 2021)

gasolin said:


> Often when we see linus or JayzTwoCents  build a pc they often use custom cooling instead of an aio
> 
> Sometimes it's because they build in a small case and need as short tubes as possible, sometimes it's just because custom water cooling cools better
> 
> But how, how does a custom water cooling cool better than an aio ?


The GPU is by far the hottest and loudest part of a typical gaming PC

Most AIOs target *the wrong component *because the CPU will never be as hot or as loud as a GPU. Hell, even Threadripper with an overclock can barely match the power draw of a _stock_ RTX 3080 FE, and most of the partner 3080 cards are factory overclocked models pulling far more power than the FE.

Whilst there is a tiny handful of AIOs designed for GPUs, the best watercooling for a GPU is usually a full-coverage waterblock which mandates a custom loop. If you're going to go to the effort of building a custom loop, adding a CPU block to the mix as well is a no-brainer.



FireFox said:


> You forgot to mention the Alphacool AIOs which are also excellent.


I looked at the Alphacool AIOs before deciding on an Alphacool custom loop.
Their AIOs are practically custom loops anyway with quick-disconnect fittings to let you modify the loop, drain and fill the loop, and add in more components to the loop.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I dont think it is the same in every country.


Hi,
EU is probably better seeing the system is completely different 
USA way too many bad rma experiences.


----------



## plastiscɧ (Jun 21, 2021)

ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> EU is probably better seeing the system is completely different
> USA way too many bad rma experiences.



u know what mate, i really love u americans! because u have a very positive mindset in general. always kind and openminded in comparison to us europeans. i mean when something goes wrong we just invent a new law to keep things in shape. but is often an obstacle as well.

i was in new york. i loved it! but when i was home again i saw our system with different eyes. liberty does not mean always doing what every you want and everything is gucci. it sometimes means rules matter! it keeps things in balance especially for ppl they are not the strongest in our societies. ( especially a man versus a big tech comapany e.g.)

i just forced discord 14 days ago delete a special server. i made them what i want. they had no chance


----------



## cvaldes (Jun 21, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Most AIOs target *the wrong component *because the CPU will never be as hot or as loud as a GPU. Hell, even Threadripper with an overclock can barely match the power draw of a _stock_ RTX 3080 FE, and most of the partner 3080 cards are factory overclocked models pulling far more power than the FE.


This is correct.

Build A: my NZXT H210 with Ryzen 5600X and 2070 SUPER. The CPU (PrimoChill 120mm radiator)'s PPT peaks at 92W (56 °C) during a Handbrake encode or Cinebench C23 test. The 2070 SUPER (PrimoChill 240mm radiator) peaks at 238W (52 °C) during a Heaven benchmark. That's right, the GPU generates 2.6 times the heat as the CPU. And during gaming, the CPU never reaches a sustained max load. That's why the CPU is on the smaller radiator. All three radiator fans are Noctua NF-P12 redux-1700 PWM grey spinners.

Build B: my Lian-Li O11D Mini with Ryzen 5800X and TUF Gaming 3080 OC. The CPU (360mm XSPC ultrathin radiator)'s PPT peaks at 102W (52 °C) during the same Handbrake encode or Cinebench C23 benchmark. The 3080 OC (360mm Alphacool ST30 radiator) peaks at 354W (43 °C) during a Heaven benchmark generating 3.5 times more heat than the CPU. Again, that's why the CPU is on the less-capable ultrathin radiator. All six radiator fans are Noctua NF-F12 1500rpm PWM beige spinners.

In both builds, the CPU radiator fans are keyed off the CPU temperature in the UEFI just like an air cooler. Both builds have an inline temperature sensor measuring the water output from the GPU cooling block. The Thermal Sensor reading is used for the GPU radiator fans. The custom loop is focused on reacting to whatever heat the GPU dumps into the loop because that is the component generating the most heat -- not the CPU.

If you are a gamer (not a competitive CPU overclocker), you are best off optimizing your GPU cooling.


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

plastiscɧ said:


> u know what mate, i really love u americans! because u have a very positive mindset in general. always kind and openminded in comparison to us europeans. i mean when something goes wrong we just invent a new law to keep things in shape. but is often an obstacle as well.
> 
> i was in new york. i loved it! but when i was home again i saw our system with different eyes. liberty does not mean always doing what every you want and everything is gucci. it sometimes means rules matter! it keeps things in balance especially for ppl they are not the strongest in our societies. ( especially a man versus a big tech comapany e.g.)
> 
> i just forced discord 14 days ago delete a special server. i made them what i want. they had no chance


Hi,
In the USA if your rma gets rejected for something silly you have to hit asus at facebook/ twitter.. or straight to the BBB = `Better Business Bureau` a long process which I'm not a member of the social media options.


----------



## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> The GPU is by far the hottest and loudest part of a typical gaming PC
> 
> Most AIOs target *the wrong component *because the CPU will never be as hot or as loud as a GPU. Hell, even Threadripper with an overclock can barely match the power draw of a _stock_ RTX 3080 FE, and most of the partner 3080 cards are factory overclocked models pulling far more power than the FE.
> 
> ...


My gpu hardly ever get's hot, under 60 c when playing raid shadow legends  and twitch in 1080 60fps on my other monitor


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

Everything has to work in balance of each other. Don't get a huge case and fill it with high TDP parts and weak fans for silence.. Just like you don't need a small case filled with fans that generate massive airflow.. but people do both 

I haven't felt my glass get more than luke warm during sessions.. and that's directly beside the GPU


----------



## mrthanhnguyen (Jun 21, 2021)

The problem with custom loop is you always want to add something more to it and it costs a lot. I jumped from 280mm Corsair AIO then to 360 and 280 custom loop the. Add 2 more 140 rad and after that changing the waterblock of cpu and gpu to get lowest temp as possible. Now I end up with a chiller and 5 gallons bucket for daily usage.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Jun 21, 2021)

gasolin said:


> My gpu hardly ever get's hot, under 60 c when playing raid shadow legends  and twitch in 1080 60fps on my other monitor


Hah, you might as well have said "My GPU never gets hot when playing minesweeper"

Raid Shadow Legends will apparently run on 15-year old graphics cards. It basically doesn't need or use a GPU so it's definitely not going to get the GPU hot.


----------



## ShiBDiB (Jun 21, 2021)

Get a good air cooler for your CPU. The only thing worth putting on water nowadays (assuming you're not a competitive OC'er) would be the GPU, and even that isn't a must.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

ShiBDiB said:


> Get a good air cooler for your CPU. The only thing worth putting on water nowadays (assuming you're not a competitive OC'er) would be the GPU, and even that isn't a must.


Its not easy cooling 7nm @ +200w


----------



## Timelessest (Jun 21, 2021)

Do you guys think that


freeagent said:


> Its not easy cooling 7nm @ +200w


Yeah, I have a 5800x and with a silverstone pf360 it still gets 80c with cinebench and 66 average when gaming and 15c ambient temperature. If I use an air cooler I think it would start throttling.
Do you guys think this EK-Classic Kit S240 D-RGB - Black Nickel Edition – EK Webshop (ekwb.com) is worth it?
I think next year I will build a SFF pc with NR200p and 2 slim 240mm rads and don't want to expend a lot of money. Can the pump that comes with kit handle 2 240mm rads or I should be better of with another?


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

Hi,
Isn't all that easy to cool x299 or z490 either lol and aren't they 14++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ lol


----------



## Valantar (Jun 21, 2021)

While the people here pointing out the much higher heat output of GPUs are of course right, they are also ignoring other important factors in cooling, such as thermal density and interface efficiency. GPUs put out tons of heat, but are cooled direct-die and have their thermal load spread evenly across the vast majority of the die. CPUs produce less heat, but have IHSes that impinge on thermal transfer in the name of safety and ease of installation, and have dramatically higher thermal density than GPUs thanks to the cores being a relatively small part of the die. This means CPUs are much more difficult to keep cool overall - as demonstrated by the numbers posted above by people talking about prioritizing their GPUs in their loops. A GPU on water will run cool almost no matter what - remember how AMD's previous water cooled reference designs have been? Cool, quiet (unless you got a whiny Fury X like me), and all with a 120mm rad. A 240 will of course run cooler or allow for slower fans, but a 120 can still handle a 300W GPU with a good fan. There is no way whatsoever you'd be able to cool a 300W CPU with a 120mm rad, no matter the fan - it would be thermal throttling long before hitting those power levels. CPUs simply aren't able to dissipate their heat efficiently enough, and thus require as much attention in a custom loop as the GPU despite the much lower thermal output in watts. After all, what matters isn't the heat output, but the temperature of the die. Everything else is there to control that one thing. And at any given wattage, a GPU will always be easier to cool than a CPU.


----------



## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Hah, you might as well have said "My GPU never gets hot when playing minesweeper"
> 
> Raid Shadow Legends will apparently run on 15-year old graphics cards. It basically doesn't need or use a GPU so it's definitely not going to get the GPU hot.


most i have seen is around 70 c og max 30% on the fans (stock settings,silent bios)



freeagent said:


> Its not easy cooling 7nm @ +200w


I have 14nm and think i have  + 170 watt 1.220 volt 5ghz bios is setting it to 1.230  https://valid.x86.fr/lt8gyb


----------



## cvaldes (Jun 21, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Do you guys think this EK-Classic Kit S240 D-RGB - Black Nickel Edition – EK Webshop (ekwb.com) is worth it?
> I think next year I will build a SFF pc with NR200p and 2 slim 240mm rads and don't want to expend a lot of money. Can the pump that comes with kit handle 2 240mm rads or I should be better of with another?


These starter kits are a decent way to get introduced into the world of custom cooling; I'm guessing the instructions that come with the EKWB kit provide step-by-step guidance. I've heard that EKWB also provides good customer support. (Note: I did not use one of these kits but selected various components from a variety of manufacturers myself.)

That starter kit pump should be fine to push liquid through two 240mm slim radiators. I have an inexpensive Phobya pump that moves water without issue through two 360mm radiators (one ultraslim, the other is a standard 30mm thick), one CPU block and one full-length GPU waterblock in a straightforward cooling loop. The EKWB starter kit pump might struggle to push water through a more complicated setup (like a large distribution plate, cooling blocks for additional components like motherboard VRM, m.2 SSDs, etc.).

Once you get more involved in custom cooling, having a spare pump and reservoir is pretty helpful when you want to test new loop components outside of a functional build.


----------



## gasolin (Jun 21, 2021)

max temps on my gup i so in dirt 5 was 66c and 24% on the fans max i so on was 32%


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

Hi,
Worst thing I did was buy ek starter kit p280's
Reservoir pump combos are total junk leak at base o-ring, fitting are plated metal not brass fluid is nightmare


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Do you guys think that
> 
> Yeah, I have a 5800x and with a silverstone pf360 it still gets 80c with cinebench and 66 average when gaming and 15c ambient temperature. If I use an air cooler I think it would start throttling.
> Do you guys think this EK-Classic Kit S240 D-RGB - Black Nickel Edition – EK Webshop (ekwb.com) is worth it?
> I think next year I will build a SFF pc with NR200p and 2 slim 240mm rads and don't want to expend a lot of money. Can the pump that comes with kit handle 2 240mm rads or I should be better of with another?


That's pretty warm for a 15c ambient.. brr.


----------



## Timelessest (Jun 21, 2021)

cvaldes said:


> These starter kits are a decent way to get introduced into the world of custom cooling; I'm guessing the instructions that come with the EKWB kit provide step-by-step guidance. I've heard that EKWB also provides good customer support. (Note: I did not use one of these kits but selected various components from a variety of manufacturers myself.)
> 
> That starter kit pump should be fine to push liquid through two 240mm slim radiators. I have an inexpensive Phobya pump that moves water without issue through two 360mm radiators (one ultraslim, the other is a standard 30mm thick), one CPU block and one full-length GPU waterblock in a straightforward cooling loop. The EKWB starter kit pump might struggle to push water through a more complicated setup (like a large distribution plate, cooling blocks for additional components like motherboard VRM, m.2 SSDs, etc.).
> 
> Once you get more involved in custom cooling, having a spare pump and reservoir is pretty helpful when you want to test new loop components outside of a functional build.


I see, thanks for the info, my only concern is having any leaks destroying the hardware, I saw that the kit's parts are made in China so I wonder if the quality control is good.


ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Worst thing I did was buy ek starter kit p280's
> Reservoir pump combos are total junk leak at base o-ring, fitting are plated metal not brass fluid is nightmare


wow, that sucks, did the leak end up damaging any hardware?


freeagent said:


> That's pretty warm for a 15c ambient.. brr.


Yeah, I only have PBO activated, 4.82 boost. Mine 5800x has 2 CCDS, I think that's why it gets hot so easy. What are your temps and overclock with cinebench?


----------



## ThrashZone (Jun 21, 2021)

Hi,
No the pump res combo sits on the floor of the case so it just dripped on my desk it only happened when I shut down
Threads on the base acetal crap are different from the reservoir tube plexi

I have a ocool pump reservoir combo too it's 10x better quality than the ek's


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Yeah, I only have PBO activated, 4.82 boost. Mine 5800x has 2 CCDS, I think that's why it gets hot so easy. What are your temps and overclock with cinebench?


About the same for cinibench.. it depends.. probably somewhere around your cini temps..

Right now I am running stock clocks with -30 and pbo off and it is pretty willing to run 4950 for game stuff like 3dmark. Linpack will run at 4500 solid, occt runs at 4750 pretty solid, time spy is 4950 the whole way. With PBO on 3dmark will run 5150-5100 with a little fluctuation. Heavy load stuff is all the same as I already wrote, just a little warmer because of pbo and mostly shows its face on CCD1 and CCD2 more than anywhere else.


----------



## Timelessest (Jun 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> About the same for cinibench.. it depends.. probably somewhere around your cini temps..
> 
> Right now I am running stock clocks with -30 and pbo off and it is pretty willing to run 4950 for game stuff like 3dmark. Linpack will run at 4500 solid, occt runs at 4750 pretty solid, time spy is 4950 the whole way. With PBO on 3dmark will run 5150-5100 with a little fluctuation. Heavy load stuff is all the same as I already wrote, just a little warmer because of pbo and mostly shows its face on CCD1 and CCD2 more than anywhere else.
> 
> View attachment 204913


Wish I could reach 5 ghz with PBO, but 5800x runs hotter than the 5900x and can achieve better clocks.
I think with custom liquid cooling I will be able to do that.


----------



## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

I almost want to get a 5800x because so many people say that..

But I already have a 5600X.. wanna trade


----------



## Mussels (Jun 21, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Hey full loop guys, how often do you top up your loop? Every 6 months or so? Would you run your loop for 5 years without touching it?


Air accumulates in the reservoir, so you get a visible reminder to top it up as it gets lower

In my system thats as simple as unscrewing the top, squirting some distilled water in and rescrewing. done.



Timelessest said:


> Do you guys think that
> 
> Yeah, I have a 5800x and with a silverstone pf360 it still gets 80c with cinebench and 66 average when gaming and 15c ambient temperature. If I use an air cooler I think it would start throttling.
> Do you guys think this EK-Classic Kit S240 D-RGB - Black Nickel Edition – EK Webshop (ekwb.com) is worth it?
> I think next year I will build a SFF pc with NR200p and 2 slim 240mm rads and don't want to expend a lot of money. Can the pump that comes with kit handle 2 240mm rads or I should be better of with another?



Thats what i just upgraded from on my 5800x, i ran PBO +200 (5850Mhz) and sat around 80C in stress tests, 85C in summer with the 3080
The 5800x is not a high wattage component, its just hard to cool - like running an older intel without delidding it, slapping bigger cooling just doesnt change temps much.
Moving to the custom loop i see around 60 in gaming and 75 in cinebench, with zero change if i start the 3090 mining into the same loop... it's all about that heat density and the core contact, not the size of the cooling.



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> Worst thing I did was buy ek starter kit p280's
> Reservoir pump combos are total junk leak at base o-ring, fitting are plated metal not brass fluid is nightmare


The kits are pretty shit, best advice is to use them as a template for what you need to buy (number of fittings, etc)


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 21, 2021)

Why use an aio, when you get all the custom loop stuff for free. Jay really likes to show how awesome he (thinks) he is too. 
Tried custom loops a few times, imo they are a pita. Need more time than an aio or air cooler to fit and service. Also if you have custom and need to strip rig or change CPU or GPU, it's a pain in the starfish. 
Personally I think most people do it for looks and nothing else.


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## freeagent (Jun 21, 2021)

Haha starfish..

I considered a loop more than once. I don’t mind the time as this is my hobby anyways.. I just never needed it before, maybe the odd time it could have come in handy. The way Mr. Mussels described it sounds fairly enticing.. I did consider those ek starter kits awhile ago.. thanks for the heads up..


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## Timelessest (Jun 22, 2021)

Mussels said:


> Air accumulates in the reservoir, so you get a visible reminder to top it up as it gets lower
> 
> In my system thats as simple as unscrewing the top, squirting some distilled water in and rescrewing. done.
> 
> ...



I see, so custom won't make much a difference for the CPU. How are the temps for the GPU when mining? I am worried that a 3080 in a ITX build could end up dying because of memory overheating.


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## ThrashZone (Jun 22, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> I see, so custom won't make much a difference for the CPU. How are the temps for the GPU when mining? I am worried that a 3080 in a ITX build could end up dying because of memory overheating.


Hi,
3080 is a 10gb card 
Heating issue is on 3090 24gb and the back 12gb memory chips heating up.


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## Mussels (Jun 22, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> I see, so custom won't make much a difference for the CPU. How are the temps for the GPU when mining? I am worried that a 3080 in a ITX build could end up dying because of memory overheating.


absurdly cold when mining. I went from 65C GPU and 105C VRAM to this:





CPU's are moderate heat in a small area, so they're hard to cool but dont need big coolers (The one exception being the 255W PL2 intel chips when unlocked)

GPU's are lots of heat in a large area, so a big cooler helps massively


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## PaulieG (Jun 23, 2021)

gasolin said:


> So which manufacturers makes good aio's ?
> 
> What is the difference between a good aio and custom water cooling in temps, i don't often see aio's (no matter brand) compared to a good custom water cooling


My take:
Real world comparison of the top AIO's on the market right now. | TechPowerUp Forums

I'm planning on adding the EVGA CLC 280 AIO to that comparison. Short summary of that is the EVGA is in last place out of the AIO's I compared in terms of cooling by a slight margin, but the fans are very loud.

I love custom loops. No AIO is going to compete with a well designed and implemented loop. The thing is, I don't have the time or the energy anymore to build, then test outside of the case for a day to watch for leaks etc. Not to mention a good loop is usually way more expensive than an AIO. AIO's have come a long way and the good one's are the next best thing to a custom loop. So that's what I use now. I especially appreciate those AIO's that have there roots in water cooling like EK does.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 23, 2021)

In 2020 I jumped back into custom loops for the first time in almost 20 years and they are so easy now compared to the old days when you needed to use aquarium pumps, plastic barbs designed for chemistry-lab tubing and radiators that were originally intended as heater cores in cars.

I reckon my CPU+GPU twin radiator + D5 loop cost me €400 and I expect with another couple of GPU blocks it will last a decade and cost me €650 over that period. €65/year is a lot for cooling but that's guaranteeing me better noise/temps/performance than the equivalent air-cooled graphics card model and even at MSRP (which won't be a thing for another 6-12 months) the quietest, fastest, flagship versions of a graphics card can easily command a €200 premium - so a custom loop is a lot of capital expenditure but not actually very expensive for a premium experience in the long run.

So, "sample size of one" being the caveat but my experience with modern G1/4 fittings and soft tubing using mostly Alphacool parts was an absolute doddle to assemble and after leak testing for about ten minutes I've set it up and not touched it in a year. Apparently EK is even easier than Alphacool (but more expensive).

I've built a few gaming machines for people using AIOs and they work fine but without GPU cooling the AIOs seemed utterly pointless to me because the CPU is never even being pushed by gaming. The only reason to buy an AIO in my opinion would be for a CPU rendering workstation where the CPU was frequently at full load but you needed it to be quiet, and the system didn't have much of a GPU in it worth bothering about.


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## freeagent (Jun 23, 2021)

So.. if were looking at getting into liquid cooling, and you were new.. what would you use to build a nice CPU loop, with the possibility of adding a GPU later?


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## ThrashZone (Jun 23, 2021)

Hi,
Ocool parts mostly
EK gpu blocks because they make one for every gpu lol


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## freeagent (Jun 23, 2021)

Awesome man I will go have a peek..


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## ThrashZone (Jun 23, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Awesome man I will go have a peek..


Hi,
CPU water blocks best so far are optimus or techN
But techn's are a little sloppy milling


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## freeagent (Jun 23, 2021)

Looks like the endmill was worn a bit.. 

Do you like their rads too? I though they looked pretty nice.. Do you have to buy from Australia?


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## ThrashZone (Jun 23, 2021)

freeagent said:


> Looks like the endmill was worn a bit..
> 
> Do you like their rads too? I though they looked pretty nice.. Do you have to buy from Australia?


Hi,
Rads ocool or best would be hardware labs rads
Yeah milling wise they were lacking cooling that's why the fins were laying down on the next...


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## freeagent (Jun 23, 2021)

Lol yup I am a mill noob. I’ve used small end mills like that before, maybe a bit smaller and the cycle took forever.. but not for doing anything like that.. though I did watch my boss make a huge heat sink for his cell booster at the cabin.

Thanks for the pointers hombre, much appreciated.


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## FireFox (Jun 24, 2021)

freeagent said:


> So.. if were looking at getting into liquid cooling, and you were new.. what would you use to build a nice CPU loop, with the possibility of adding a GPU later?


It depends on how much you are willing to spend.
Some people will recommend Alphacool + EK parts and some others Hardware Labs + EK or other known brands. 
Best thing to do is to read a few reviews.


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## Timelessest (Jun 24, 2021)

Is it possible to install a d5 pump inside the Meshlicious without drilling and having everything fixed? I'll travel a lot with the pc and I don't want the pump damaging any parts.
Optimum tech did say it's possible to install a pump in front of the GPU, but I don't think there are any appropriate holes for installation.


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## Jetster (Jun 24, 2021)

FireFox said:


> It depends on how much you are willing to spend.
> Some people will recommend Alphacool + EK parts and some others Hardware Labs + EK or other known brands.
> Best thing to do is to read a few reviews.


I don't remember the company but there have been AIO coolers that are expandable, refillable and under $300
One company was sued for patent infringement. The name just slips my mind. Swiftech maybe

There is also kits. Not sure how good they are. 









						Swiftech Boreas Series DIY CPU Liquid Cooling Kit
					

Boreas Series, DIY liquid cooling kits with built-in addressable RGB lighting



					www.swiftech.com
				











						EK-Quantum Power Kit D-RGB P360
					

The EK-Quantum Power Kit D-RGB P360 is the ultimate fully addressable D-RGB customizable liquid cooling kit dedicated to all users who seek the most powerful water-cooling kit on the market! Decked out with all-Quantum Line liquid cooling parts products that share the same design language and...




					www.ekwb.com


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Is it possible to install a d5 pump inside the Meshlicious without drilling and having everything fixed? I'll travel a lot with the pc and I don't want the pump damaging any parts.
> Optimum tech did say it's possible to install a pump in front of the GPU, but I don't think there are any appropriate holes for installation.


A D5 is complete overkill for a loop this small (and I kind of doubt you'd be able to fit it). A DDC of something similar is plenty. In using a Nouvolo Aquanaut DDC CPU block, and while it isn't the best CPU block out there, it works really well still, and is impressively compact. No drilling required


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## Timelessest (Jun 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> A D5 is complete overkill for a loop this small (and I kind of doubt you'd be able to fit it). A DDC of something similar is plenty. In using a Nouvolo Aquanaut DDC CPU block, and while it isn't the best CPU block out there, it works really well still, and is impressively compact. No drilling required


Thanks for the answer!
Only problem with those CPU blocks pump combo is that I'm stuck with that block and pump, also isn't it harder to fill/empty?
Maybe I'll have to change the Meshlicious for the nr200p


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Thanks for the answer!
> Only problem with those CPU blocks pump combo is that I'm stuck with that block and pump, also isn't it harder to fill/empty?
> Maybe I'll have to change the Meshlicious for the nr200p


Not so with the Aquanaut. It's a bring-your-own DDC pump solution, so if you want to change to a different CPU block, just buy a new pump top for the DDC pump while you're at it. And you've got a wide variety of DDC pumps to choose from as well. I'm using it with a Laing 18W DDC 3.2/T1 Plus PWM (and an Alphacool DDC heatsink), which is both quiet and delivers plenty of flow, and (after I rewired it) can be powered directly from my Aquacomputer Quadro's PWM fan output. Of course you can't move to a different style of pump and keep the Aquanaut, but given the space constraints of the Meshlicious that's not a very relevant scenario unless you're also changing cases. And it saves _a ton_ of space. It isn't the best performing CPU block, but it's still perfectly serviceable, and more than worth it for the space savings IMO. It's a far more powerful and flexible solution than something like the Alphacool LT Solo.


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## PaulieG (Jun 24, 2021)

You all are making me nostalgic. Making me want to build a loop in just ONE of my rigs. More money flying out of the window.


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieG said:


> You all are making me nostalgic. Making me want to build a loop in just ONE of my rigs. More money flying out of the window.


Money out the window? Thanks to custom loops, I'm cooling >400W in a <15l case with just two 140mm fans  Yes, it's a terrible value proposition, but it also delivers unique benefits.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieG said:


> You all are making me nostalgic. Making me want to build a loop in just ONE of my rigs. More money flying out of the window.


Eheim aquarium pump or go home 
It won't be nostalgic unless it's as crap and inconvenient as it used to be in the beige days.


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Eheim aquarium pump or go home
> It won't be nostalgic unless it's as crap and inconvenient as it used to be in the beige days.


My first water loop was a kit from a long since defunct Norwegian specialty retailer, with what I must assume was an aquarium pump submerged into a tiny little boxy acrylic reservoir. It worked well (and I still have the 120mm rad it came with!), but I freaked out and replaced it with air after an entirely PEBKAC leak (I hadn't closed the fill port on the res properly, and tilted the case over on its side, leading to deep blue liquid spilling everywhere). Even if my wallet isn't a fan, I'm ultimately glad I got back into water cooling though.


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## Mussels (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieG said:


> You all are making me nostalgic. Making me want to build a loop in just ONE of my rigs. More money flying out of the window.


during winter, i just look at it as GPU mining is being paid to heat my house

Therefore, custom water is in fact an investment that MAKES money!


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## PaulieG (Jun 24, 2021)

I do miss my old Heatkiller block. She was so beautiful and effective. Best block I ever owned.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> My first water loop was a kit from a long since defunct Norwegian specialty retailer, with what I must assume was an aquarium pump submerged into a tiny little boxy acrylic reservoir. It worked well (and I still have the 120mm rad it came with!), but I freaked out and replaced it with air after an entirely PEBKAC leak (I hadn't closed the fill port on the res properly, and tilted the case over on its side, leading to deep blue liquid spilling everywhere). Even if my wallet isn't a fan, I'm ultimately glad I got back into water cooling though.


Eheim aquarium pump in an acrylic box with G1/4 fittings?


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Chrispy_ said:


> Eheim aquarium pump in an acrylic box with G1/4 fittings?
> View attachment 205230


That looks very similar, but not quite the same, as IIRC mine had a top mounted fill port (or is that what that giant acrylic hex nut is?). Very likely a variation of the same design though.


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## Chrispy_ (Jun 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> That looks very similar, but not quite the same, as IIRC mine had a top mounted fill port (or is that what that giant acrylic hex nut is?). Very likely a variation of the same design though.


I think the giant hex nut is the fill port for that one. I used a similar thing too but it wasn't fancy acrylic, it was tough white ABS plastic like the stuff your car has for washer fluid etc.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 24, 2021)

If you want cheap custom loop parts you can always scout around for used stuff... I have a bunch of radiators I sniped second hand for €20-30 or so and am using them for my test bench loop, that thing also has a second hand D5... Second hand fittings and one of the waterblocks I use on it is used too... Only tubing, pump top+res is new...

Personally not really keen on AIOs, if you don't want/need/can't afford a custom loop just go with air cooling.


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## FireFox (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieG said:


> You all are making me nostalgic. Making me want to build a loop in just ONE of my rigs. More money flying out of the window.


You talking about money flying out of the window and me planning to buy a Waterchiller *Hailea Ultra Titan 500, *just that i haven't decided yet  i am very curious to see the performance of 2x Rad 480 + 1x 420 and the Waterchiller.


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## Timelessest (Jun 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Not so with the Aquanaut. It's a bring-your-own DDC pump solution, so if you want to change to a different CPU block, just buy a new pump top for the DDC pump while you're at it. And you've got a wide variety of DDC pumps to choose from as well. I'm using it with a Laing 18W DDC 3.2/T1 Plus PWM (and an Alphacool DDC heatsink), which is both quiet and delivers plenty of flow, and (after I rewired it) can be powered directly from my Aquacomputer Quadro's PWM fan output. Of course you can't move to a different style of pump and keep the Aquanaut, but given the space constraints of the Meshlicious that's not a very relevant scenario unless you're also changing cases. And it saves _a ton_ of space. It isn't the best performing CPU block, but it's still perfectly serviceable, and more than worth it for the space savings IMO. It's a far more powerful and flexible solution than something like the Alphacool LT Solo.


Do you think this https://www.alphacool.com/shop/rese...voir-incl.-alphacool-eispumpe-vpp755-v.3-pump can fit at the bottom? I'm thinking of placing it in those holes for the ssds.
If that doesn't help at very least the aquanaut looks good, better than the barrow and swiftech combos.


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## PaulieG (Jun 24, 2021)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> If you want cheap custom loop parts you can always scout around for used stuff... I have a bunch of radiators I sniped second hand for €20-30 or so and am using them for my test bench loop, that thing also has a second hand D5... Second hand fittings and one of the waterblocks I use on it is used too... Only tubing, pump top+res is new...
> 
> Personally not really keen on AIOs, if you don't want/need/can't afford a custom loop just go with air cooling.


I just can't agree with you on AIO's. The new gen of quality AIO's from EK and Arctic Cooling are most certainly a step up in cooling performance from even Noctua's best air coolers. I say this from personal experience.


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## FireFox (Jun 24, 2021)

PaulieG said:


> the new gen of quality AIO's from EK and Arctic Cooling


I already told to someone in here and now i tell it to you too, Alphacool AIO's are good as those you mentioned


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Do you think this https://www.alphacool.com/shop/rese...voir-incl.-alphacool-eispumpe-vpp755-v.3-pump can fit at the bottom? I'm thinking of placing it in those holes for the ssds.
> If that doesn't help at very least the aquanaut looks good, better than the barrow and swiftech combos.


Sincerely doubt it, though it'll depend on your radiator thickness etc. Remember that the SSD mounting is below either the PSU or radiator. You might be able to fit a DDC with a slim top down there if you attach it directly to a radiator port. I've seen a build like that, I'll see if I can find it again.


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## PaulieG (Jun 24, 2021)

FireFox said:


> I already told to someone in here and now i tell it to you too, Alphacool AIO's are good as those you mentioned


Honestly, if it wasn't for the abysmal Intel backplate, I would mention it with the others since it cools almost as well.


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## Timelessest (Jun 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Sincerely doubt it, though it'll depend on your radiator thickness etc. Remember that the SSD mounting is below either the PSU or radiator. You might be able to fit a DDC with a slim top down there if you attach it directly to a radiator port. I've seen a build like that, I'll see if I can find it again.


This guy somehow managed to install a d5 pump 
Ssupd + d5pump fits but tight : SSUPD (reddit.com)


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> This guy somehow managed to install a d5 pump
> Ssupd + d5pump fits but tight : SSUPD (reddit.com)


Damn, that is not for the faint of heart. Looks like it blocks the vast majority of PSU connectors though. I don't think I'd be able to fit that.


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## Timelessest (Jun 24, 2021)

Valantar said:


> Damn, that is not for the faint of heart. Looks like it blocks the vast majority of PSU connectors though. I don't think I'd be able to fit that.


Sadly he had to remove it a fan to fit the pump there, dunno why since it seems the pump has enough space.   
D5 pump ssupd : SSUPD (reddit.com)
The meshlicious is so close to be a perfect tower itx case. Just a few cm or a bracket for a pump and the nr200p would lose its crown.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 24, 2021)

this msi z87i gaming ac is my first real look at itx. i like the small size, but the positioning of the connectors is tbh shit. I could go for a nice itx as a main rig.


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## ThrashZone (Jun 24, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> This guy somehow managed to install a d5 pump
> Ssupd + d5pump fits but tight : SSUPD (reddit.com)


Hi,
If it's not been said D5's are water cooled and DCC's are air cooled 
Hardly overkill.


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

Timelessest said:


> Sadly he had to remove it a fan to fit the pump there, dunno why since it seems the pump has enough space.
> D5 pump ssupd : SSUPD (reddit.com)
> The meshlicious is so close to be a perfect tower itx case. Just a few cm or a bracket for a pump and the nr200p would lose its crown.


There's plenty of room for a DDC in the GPU compartment if you use a water cooled GPU, especially a short one like an RTX FE, and especially if you configure it in 4-slot GPU mode. Ali from Optimum Tech did a build with a pump+res combo mounted to the top of the GPU compartment. And the rear panel is full of perforations, so plenty of spots to screw it in. And if you don't water cool your GPU, just get an Arctic or EK AIO and leave it at that.



ThrashZone said:


> Hi,
> If it's not been said D5's are water cooled and DCC's are air cooled
> Hardly overkill.


That's true, but it's not like a DDC needs a ton of cooling. Running one in the Meshy should really not be an issue.


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## GorbazTheDragon (Jun 24, 2021)

Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> this msi z87i gaming ac is my first real look at itx. i like the small size, but the positioning of the connectors is tbh shit. I could go for a nice itx as a main rig.


My main rig for a few years was ITX... Silverstone RVZ01, really nicely sized case with very good GPU cooling, could easily go in a small suitcase for when I travelled between my parents place and college. Unfortunately the CPU cooling side for most ITX cases of that size is difficult, the 120mm AIO I initially used dried enough to be unusable in around 18 month since I had twisted the tubes a bit too tight to make it fit. The air cooler alternatives were unsatisfactory for the 4790k with the overclock I wanted to run, so I ended up just tossing it in an ATX case once I settled down at my own place. If you need the portability or don't have the space though, there are quite a lot of interesting ITX options around nowadays, especially the last year I finally found some that I felt offered enough space advantage to actually be relevant without sacrificing too much cooling.


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## Valantar (Jun 24, 2021)

GorbazTheDragon said:


> My main rig for a few years was ITX... Silverstone RVZ01, really nicely sized case with very good GPU cooling, could easily go in a small suitcase for when I travelled between my parents place and college. Unfortunately the CPU cooling side for most ITX cases of that size is difficult, the 120mm AIO I initially used dried enough to be unusable in around 18 month since I had twisted the tubes a bit too tight to make it fit. The air cooler alternatives were unsatisfactory for the 4790k with the overclock I wanted to run, so I ended up just tossing it in an ATX case once I settled down at my own place. If you need the portability or don't have the space though, there are quite a lot of interesting ITX options around nowadays, especially the last year I finally found some that I felt offered enough space advantage to actually be relevant without sacrificing too much cooling.


Yeah, ITX cases have developed massively since 2016 or so. The Ncase and Dan A4 kicked off a wave of innovative and well cooled designs, and today there are dozens, though most are low volume and relatively expensive. The NR200 is an excellent cheap option though, and the PCIe 3.0 version of the Meshlicious is just barely more expensive. And that's a really nice premium case. I don't see those really compromising on anything.


Gruffalo.Soldier said:


> this msi z87i gaming ac is my first real look at itx. i like the small size, but the positioning of the connectors is tbh shit. I could go for a nice itx as a main rig.


Yeah, that board has a weird layout. Don't think there has been anything like that in recent generations.


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