# i am getting pissed with Zen 3... (still random reboots at idle/low load, cache hierarchy bluescreens and other crap)



## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 24, 2020)

So i have a 5800X and a B550 Strix f.

i get random reboots with volmgr 161 as soon as i use my 5800x (the same SSD/windows installation works perfectly fine on my 10850k)
then i get random hard crashes with cache hierachy hardware errors and none of them create a dump file.

please do not repeat the same old phrases from bios updates to driver issues, or other stuff that i can google within three seconds.

the identical PSU, Ram, SSD and GPU runs 24/7 fine with my intel hardware.
i can run Memtest for three days non stop with 0 errors. i can run prime95 and furmark at the same time over night without any problems.

i disabled C States, fast boot, reinstalled windows on another SSD, downclocked the CPU (core boost disabled) ran my ram at 2133 Mhz and i tried every existing bios that is able to run a Zen 3 CPU.

i completely rebuilt my PC from scratch, swapped my PSU, GPU, RAM, Mainboard (b550 Tomahawk) and i tried two other Ryzen CPUs.

the Problem is 100% an issue with Zen 3/Bios/AGESA.

but if anybody has another "trick" that worked for him.. please let me know it. i am a milimeter away from just getting rid of my AMD Hardware and stick to 14nm++++++ that chugs more power while loading a game than a 5950X in Prime95 128k


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## Frick (Dec 24, 2020)

Isn't this what RMA's are for?


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 24, 2020)

Frick said:


> Isn't this what RMA's are for?



and then? 

i get the same stuff again and have the same issues again.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Dec 24, 2020)

what did you figure out from the Event Viewer ?


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 24, 2020)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> what did you figure out from the Event Viewer ?


barely anything.
but the same as the person that has a post in general hardware a few posts below me (ryzen reboots)

A fatal hardware error has occurred.

Reported by component: Processor Core
Error Source: Machine Check Exception
Error Type: Cache Hierarchy Error
Processor APIC ID: 7 

AND
Volmgr 161 (....was not able to create a dump file.....)

the same issues that has almost everybody with a Ryzen CPU when you google random reboots ryzen.


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## Fouquin (Dec 24, 2020)

Try a different SSD or an old HDD if you have one. Just any different drive model. I shit you not. It fixed it on my buddy's PC to go from his Samsung 850 Evo to a newer Sabrent NVMe SSD.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Dec 24, 2020)

volmgr 161 is a drive error.  Not sure what brand drive but some searching hints at samsung drives need an update to the firmware. If  you've done the simple stuff, chckdsk and updated the firmware then further diving into the event viewer is needed to see if there is some program causing it.


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 24, 2020)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> volmgr 161 is a drive error.  Not sure what brand drive but some searching hints at samsung drives need an update to the firmware. If  you've done the simple stuff, chckdsk and updated the firmware then further diving into the event viewer is needed to see if there is some program causing it.


i have two 970 Evo Plus.
Both have the latest firmware.
both have the same volmgr 161 error on AMD
both are working perfectly fine on intel.

SMART Values are perfect.

a new "beta" bios appeared right now... i'll try that


Version 1216 Beta Version
2020/11/25 19.85 MBytes
ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING BIOS 1216
1. Support AMD AM4 AGESA V2 PI 1.1.0.0 Patch C
2. Improve system stability
3. Improve DRAM compatibility
4. Improve system performance

"Selected File is not a proper Bios"

GJ Asus.

And now the Bios 1401 was pulled from their website...


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## TheLostSwede (Dec 24, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> the same SSD/windows installation works perfectly fine on my 10850k


Are you saying you didn't do a clean Windows installation?
Then there's your problem.


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## EarthDog (Dec 24, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> and then?
> 
> i get the same stuff again and have the same issues again.


This is an assumption...fyi...

But yeah, if you format those drives and put a fresh-from-scratch windows install on it and it doesn't work, try a different brand drive. If that doesn't work, I'd rma the mobo first. Right now I'd be working with asus concurrently.


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## Valantar (Dec 24, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> So i have a 5800X and a B550 Strix f.
> 
> i get random reboots with volmgr 161 as soon as i use my 5800x (the same SSD/windows installation works perfectly fine on my 10850k)
> then i get random hard crashes with cache hierachy hardware errors and none of them create a dump file.
> ...


... So having an issue with a single CPU (or possibly motherboard) means there's "an issue with Zen 3"? Sorry, but your evidence does not support your conclusion. RMA your CPU and/or motherboard.


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## HTC (Dec 24, 2020)

Question: is your SSD in your board's *storage* QVL?

For my board, i have a QVL not only for RAM but for storage too: perhaps there's some incompatibility with your SSD and board? Just a guess, but you should find out.

For reference, this is my board's storage QVL: https://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/X370 Taichi/index.us.asp#Storage


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## DeathtoGnomes (Dec 24, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> i have two 970 Evo Plus.
> Both have the latest firmware.


did you check the Samsung website or with the Magician Software?


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## maxfly (Dec 24, 2020)

Valantar said:


> ... So having an issue with a single CPU (or possibly motherboard) means there's "an issue with Zen 3"? Sorry, but your evidence does not support your conclusion. RMA your CPU and/or motherboard.


Useless post...read before attacking the OP.

"completely rebuilt my PC from scratch, swapped my PSU, GPU, RAM, Mainboard (b550 Tomahawk) and i tried two other Ryzen CPUs."


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## RJARRRPCGP (Dec 24, 2020)

HTC said:


> Question: is your SSD in your board's *storage* QVL?
> 
> For my board, i have a QVL not only for RAM but for storage too: perhaps there's some incompatibility with your SSD and board? Just a guess, but you should find out.
> 
> For reference, this is my board's storage QVL: https://www.asrock.com/MB/AMD/X370 Taichi/index.us.asp#Storage



The stop error code, indicates a faulty CPU, most likely! 

For symptom(s) of storage problems, I would run *sfc /scannow*.


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## Steevo (Dec 24, 2020)

Have you reinstalled windows with a clean install?


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## suraswami (Dec 24, 2020)

To OP:

This might be totally unrelated but it solved the mystery "Ghost" hang and random reboot at idle of my newly build Asus X570 Tuf Wifi + R7 2700x.  I changed the Power supply setting from Low Power to Auto, this prevented the CPU from going to crazy .4v idle voltage setting.  This stopped all the random reboots at idle issue for me.  Nothing was recorded in Event viewer as well.

I also updated to the latest bios, it has been stable so far.

Don't know if my finding is of any help, but you can try it.


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## Vya Domus (Dec 24, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> i completely rebuilt my PC from scratch, swapped my PSU, GPU, RAM, Mainboard (b550 Tomahawk) and i tried two other Ryzen CPUs.



Then you have to accept eventually that the problem is not hardware related.

Because what is the alternative ? You got two entirely different systems with BIOS/boards from two different manufactures with the exact same obscure issue ? The only thing left for you to do is install a clean copy of Windows on a drive after completely wiping it with no other drives attached and just leave it running to confirm 100% that the same thing happens again.

I've also looked up that error and from the few posts that I can find most seem to be related in one way or another to RAM.



RJARRRPCGP said:


> The stop error code, indicates a faulty CPU, most likely!



It's more likely to win the lottery twice in a row. Think about it, he has basically built two entirely different PCs and in both the CPUs were faulty ? And keep in mind CPU failure is unbelievably rare in the first place.


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## RJARRRPCGP (Dec 24, 2020)

There was an error report also indicating likely a problem with the CPU cache, "cache hierachy" is a CPU cache error.


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## Vya Domus (Dec 24, 2020)

RJARRRPCGP said:


> There was an error report also indicating likely a problem with the CPU cache, "cache hierachy" is a CPU cache error.



I know but it's not necessarily an innate CPU error.


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## Glaceon (Dec 24, 2020)

CPU cache is what I got when my timings were unstable. 10 minutes into Windows and I got this:







Stabilized my timings, ran a day of various memtests, no WHEA errors in sight now.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 24, 2020)

Bad ram/setup/voltage/timings/etc etc can show these types of errors.


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## freeagent (Dec 24, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> Bad ram/setup/voltage/timings/etc etc can show these types of errors.


I agree. I have seen bad mem overclocks effect L3 cache bandwidth in Aida recently. Though I haven’t seen errors like in the op. I’m curious if it may be a memory or an agesa issue..


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## r9 (Dec 24, 2020)

Hey better to be pissed off than pissed on.


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## RJARRRPCGP (Dec 25, 2020)

freeagent said:


> I agree. I have seen bad mem overclocks effect L3 cache bandwidth in Aida recently. Though I haven’t seen errors like in the op. I’m curious if it may be a memory or an agesa issue..


More likely a BIOS issue with wrong cache voltage or AGESA. (And that's if not losing the CPU chip lottery and getting a broken-from-the-plant chip)


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## Mussels (Dec 25, 2020)

The black screen crashes are IMC/IF related. If you arent stable at 2133Mhz on the RAM with a 1:1 IF, you've just got a faulty CPU and need to RMA it.

You should not need to mess with C states or downclocking or anything at all like that - either you have a 1 in a million incompatibility that hasn't been patched yet, or one common piece of hardware you have is faulty.


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## Fouquin (Dec 25, 2020)

Mussels said:


> The black screen crashes are IMC/IF related. If you arent stable at 2133Mhz on the RAM with a 1:1 IF, you've just got a faulty CPU and need to RMA it.
> 
> You should not need to mess with C states or downclocking or anything at all like that - either you have a 1 in a million incompatibility that hasn't been patched yet, or one common piece of hardware you have is faulty.



But with three different CPUs presumably from different production batches? That's incredibly hard to believe. If AMD had failure rates that high there'd be a high level inquiry and/or recall of those chips.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that on my friend's new 5800X + X570 build from last month we fixed this exact same error with a different brand, and newer SSD. That was literally all it took, just a fresh install on a fresh SSD.


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## purecain (Dec 25, 2020)

Its more than likely the state of the bios agasa update that your on. I havnt updated to the latest bios yet and running a 5950 as it could be a few months before the new agasa code is 100% stable.

I havnt had one crash and am running stable as a rock on an older bios. Good luck and try an older bios agasa version.


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## dont whant to set it"' (Dec 25, 2020)

It happens all the time when I take the os drive from one platform to another. Uninstalling the drivers first before "porting" it, may be the key.


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## Valantar (Dec 25, 2020)

maxfly said:


> Useless post...read before attacking the OP.
> 
> "completely rebuilt my PC from scratch, swapped my PSU, GPU, RAM, Mainboard (b550 Tomahawk) and i tried two other Ryzen CPUs."


Lol, "attacking"? Where? How? Please try adding just a tad of nuance to your language, it'll help you actually have constructive dialogue with people. Criticizing, maybe? Nonetheless, a sample size of two and an undiagnosed problem are still not grounds for making sweeping proclamations about an entire architecture. I absolutely understand the OP's frustration, but their way of framing this amounts to shaking their fist at the sky and shouting "Damn you, AMD!", which doesn't help them solve their problem whatsoever.


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## Mussels (Dec 25, 2020)

Fouquin said:


> But with three different CPUs presumably from different production batches? That's incredibly hard to believe. If AMD had failure rates that high there'd be a high level inquiry and/or recall of those chips.
> 
> Again, I'd like to reiterate that on my friend's new 5800X + X570 build from last month we fixed this exact same error with a different brand, and newer SSD. That was literally all it took, just a fresh install on a fresh SSD.



interesting and possible


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## thesmokingman (Dec 25, 2020)

Fouquin said:


> But with three different CPUs presumably from different production batches? That's incredibly hard to believe. If AMD had failure rates that high there'd be a high level inquiry and/or recall of those chips.
> 
> Again, I'd like to reiterate that on my friend's new 5800X + X570 build from last month we fixed this exact same error with a different brand, and newer SSD. That was literally all it took, just a fresh install on a fresh SSD.



If one had corsair ram, it could give issues on any cpu. And your anecdotal issue, that's on the individual ssd. Did you confirm that the ssd was defective or incompatible? There's an important distinction there. And one case doesn't make it wide sweeping. The ram is more likely an issue especially with new users to ryzens.


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## Fouquin (Dec 25, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> And your anecdotal issue, that's on the individual ssd. Did you confirm that the ssd was defective or incompatible? There's an important distinction there. And one case doesn't make it wide sweeping.



I'm not sure what the purpose of this post is. Read the OP:




WarTherapy1195 said:


> but if anybody has another "trick" that worked for him.. please let me know it.



Trick provided. Anecdotal or not, it's a solution that worked for this error code.


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## GLD (Dec 25, 2020)

My rig was working fine, then I upgraded to the newest v.3001 bios and got problems. It wouldn't boot/run with D.O.C.P. enabled, as before. It wouldn't let me downgrade the bios either. It would only run with bios set to default values. I don't OC and would normally just set fan profile and enable D.O.C.P. and it would be stable at 1:1:1. What ended up working for me was also changing two other things in the bios. I changed Vcore and Soc from auto to manual and set them to the default values it showed. It showed 1.1v for the Vcore and I thought that was low, down from the auto 1.4v+, but went with it. I think it was 1.025v for the Soc. It has been a couple weeks now with gaming and benchmarks, with being stable at 1:1:1  AND the cpu is an average 20*C+ cooler! 

I think Ryzen problems are caused by the bios setting to much voltage by default. Mine was anyways. Try changing some values from auto/default to manual to keep them from getting over juiced.


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## efikkan (Dec 25, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> i completely rebuilt my PC from scratch, swapped my PSU, GPU, RAM, Mainboard (b550 Tomahawk) and i tried two other Ryzen CPUs.
> the Problem is 100% an issue with Zen 3/Bios/AGESA.


Just for clarity, you either tested two other Zen 1/2 CPUs that didn't experience the same problem, or they were Zen 3 CPUs and did experience the same problem?
It matters, because one would eliminate the CPU as the culprit.


Beyond trying a completely different SSD or HDD as a long shot, I think you have pretty much narrowed it down to being either BIOS, motherboard or CPU. (But you tested two different motherboards, didn't you?)

I would probably test an unstable computer in Linux too, just to see if it happens there and if it sheds some extra light on what's going on, but this is probably only useful for those who are familiar with this.

What you should do in terms of returning it, contacting the motherboard maker support etc., or just wait a few weeks for a new BIOS depends on the rights you have as a buyer in your country, return policy of the store etc.
To me this smells like a BIOS issue, which I would expect to be eventually fixed. And there are a number of such problems reported by others, which is why I have postponed setting up a Zen 3 system for another few months.


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## aQi (Dec 25, 2020)

Before i add something does the OP has any update on the situation ?


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## Mussels (Dec 26, 2020)

You're using one (or more) incompatible parts at the same time.
Only you can narrow that down

PSU, RAM (stock/XMP), Mobo, GPU, CPU, SSD, OS etc. Find out the part(s) all these faulty systems have had in common, and do a build without it.
Hell we dont even know what BIOS settings you're using, you keep tweaking them (fine) but we cant give advice on anything you do and dont explicitly tell us about.

Yes, people have these issues like you... but theres a lot more WITHOUT the issues, or those that get it and resolve it.


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## Caring1 (Dec 26, 2020)

I was going to suggest disabling C states but noticed you already did that in the O.P.
Have you looked for and found ULPS and tried disabling that?


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

Mussels said:


> You're using one (or more) incompatible parts at the same time.
> Only you can narrow that down
> 
> PSU, RAM (stock/XMP), Mobo, GPU, CPU, SSD, OS etc. Find out the part(s) all these faulty systems have had in common, and do a build without it.
> ...



Here is an update.

i've spent the last 1 1/2 days mostly in the Bios and on Windows installation screens. i tried every single workaround available on the internet and i got it somewhat stable. (see bottom)



Hardware tested:

Corsair RM850X, bequiet Dark Power Pro 11 750W.

Asus B550 Strix F , B550 Tomahawk, X570 Aorus Pro

2x 8GB Corsair vengence LPX 2400 Mhz ,1x8 GB Corsair vengeance LPX 3200 Mhz , 2x 16GB Trident Z Neo 3600 Mhz

RX 5700XT (Sapphire Pulse, Nitro + SE)
RX 580 8GB (Armor OC, Pulse Lite)
Vega 64 Strix OC
GTX 1060 6GB (two models from Zotac and EVGA)
GTX 1070  Zotac
GTX 1080 Ti Gaming OC, Strix OC
GTX 1660 Ti
RTX 2060 KO
RTX 2070 Super
RTX 2080 Super
RTX 2080 Ti
RTX 3070 (Gigabyte Gaming OC, MSI Ventus 2x)
RTX 3080 (TUF OC, FTW3 Ultra)
RTX 3090 Gaming X Trio

Ryzen 7 5800X, Ryzen 5 5600x, Ryzen 7 3800X, Ryzen 5 3600X

Fresh Windows 10 Installations on the following SSDs:
Samsung 970 Evo Plus 250GB
Samsung Evo Plus 500GB
Three! different Crucial MX500 1TB
two Samsung 870 QVO 4TB
One other Crucial MX 500 500GB.


i tried every single Bios completely Stock, With and without XMP, C States, Virtualisation (IOMMU), Fast Boot and PBO/Curve Optimizer.
I tested every single board with all ram kits for several hours with Memtest,Prime 95, OCCT and tons of Gaming.

Everything is completely Stable und every circumstance (0 Errors in Memtest, 0 Errors in P95 (version 30.3) Zero errors in OCCT and Zero Crashes in Games.


As soon as i let it sit on the desktop or watch a youtube video the PC just reboots or freezes.

This Happens with the 5800X the borrowed 5600X on all Mainboards.

BOTH ZEN 2 CHIPS ARE WORKING FINE ON ALL BOARDS WITH ALL RAM KITS.

i am almost 100% Sure that it is a Power issue with the extremely low VID that the CPUs have at idle (as low as 0.2V)



///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

What did i to get it stable?

1.Manual OC with 1.33125V at 4.65Ghz (no more .2V at idle and ZERO crashes/reboots)


And  a feature called Powersupply Idle Control ( Advanced/AMD CBS/ CPU Common Options)

it is at "Auto".
and Auto is "low current idle"

i changed that to typical current idle.

what happened?

The VID and VCore reported from the Nuvoton NCT6798D does NOT go below 0.9V (SVI2 TFN Voltage at idle)


i am Sorry if some sentences sound weird, off or "mad". i am German, i mostly translate my slightly pissed mood German into english and it is 2:30 AM right now. 


I will post updates again if it crashes or freezes with the current settings which are the following:

Stock, Latest Beta Bios Version 1216 (Patch C ) on a B550 Strix F.
DOCP enabled (2x16GB Trident Z Neo 3600 CL16
PSU Typical Current Load instead of Low current load.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 26, 2020)

I'm glad you found a fix. I'm just opposite as you, as soon as I OC I get a crash no matter what. Leave it at stock no crashes, lol.  AMD is fun like that. I think it will improve with future BIOS though so I am not worried/no rush.

Can't say I have had any issues myself, I had some in the beginning, but it was because I was overclocking. I'm not overclocking now and I just enable XMP for the ram. 0 issues and 0 crashes, and I been gaming 7+ hrs a day, watching youtube daily, etc. 

Waiting for new BIOS before I do any oc'ing.


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## Totally (Dec 26, 2020)

After googling the issue is a software/hard drive issue. Just clean install and be done with.


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## Caring1 (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> Here is an update.
> 
> i've spent the last 1 1/2 days mostly in the Bios and on Windows installation screens. i tried every single workaround available on the internet and i got it somewhat stable. (see bottom)
> 
> ...


Looks like we came to the same conclusion, that Ultra Low Power States were the culprit.


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## natr0n (Dec 26, 2020)

Try using...Typical current idle

It seems to have solved some random reboots I got. Using an older model psu.


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## thesmokingman (Dec 26, 2020)

> 1.Manual OC with 1.33125V at 4.65Ghz (no more .2V at idle and ZERO crashes/reboots)



.2v is the sleep voltage. All you're doing is preventing your sleeping cores from using minimal voltage. The cpu is designed to put cores to sleep at that voltage, shrugs.

On a personal experience level, I have had random reboot crashes before and that was generally fixed by raising dram voltage. My dram sticks are 16gbx2@4000mhz which I run at different speeds so I tend to have to give it a lil more voltage than what dram calc suggests.

*For ex. dram calc susgests I run my dimms at 1.37v when I run 3600mhz at cas 14 latency. However real world anything under 1.39v gives me random weirdness. Yea, ya can't take dram calc's suggestions at face value but as a starting point.


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

thesmokingman said:


> .2v is the sleep voltage. All you're doing is preventing your sleeping cores from using minimal voltage. The cpu is designed to put cores to sleep at that voltage, shrugs.


The Cores may be designed to put to sleep.

But the burger flippers in the AMD software development team aren't able to even make a CPU functional at stock.


Btw. Ryzen Master still says that cores are at their sleep state.
Plus they drop down to 0.000w at idle ( at least two or three at the same time)


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## Space Lynx (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> The Cores may be designed to put to sleep.
> 
> But the burger flippers in the AMD software development team aren't able to even make a CPU functional at stock.
> 
> ...



works fine for me at stock


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## kruk (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> And  a feature called Powersupply Idle Control ( Advanced/AMD CBS/ CPU Common Options)
> 
> it is at "Auto".
> and Auto is "low current idle"
> ...



This is probably the fix that worked. The random restart bug has been there since the first gen, but I was under the impression that it mostly plagued Linux users (and was fixed in future Zen iterations). Until Powersupply Idle Control setting appeared, affected users could also disable the C-states (but it affected boosting) - it's weird that it didn't work in your case.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 26, 2020)

Switch to intel, might not be as fast or have the kudos Amd has now but it still is and always has been stable as a mountain. I have had zero crashes or problems with mine since i built it in march last year.


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

tigger said:


> Switch to intel, might not be as fast or have the kudos Amd has now but it still is and always has been stable as a mountain. I have had zero crashes or problems with mine since i built it in march last year.


I am coming from intel...
Stable or not.. i am getting sick of running a CPU that pulls more power when loading a game than a 5950x in prime95.

AMD deserves the money and support. Intel not.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 26, 2020)

Tbh I don't even really consider power use. If it bothered me that much I'd have a i3 or Ryzen 3. Imo the most important thing in a pc above everything else is stability. You could have the most powerful hardware available but if it's not stable, what use is it. Also some people have 850watt+ PSU's then whine about power use.
Well I hope you manage to get it actually usable.
So you gave intel your money and support for a long time, now you switched to amd and say intel deserve neither, bit hypocritical imo


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## efikkan (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> Stable or not.. i am getting sick of running a CPU that pulls more power when loading a game than a 5950x in prime95.


While Comet Lake is certanly less power efficient than Zen 3, the difference during gaming shouldn't be nearly that significant. At stock, your i9-10850K will throttle to 125W after 56 seconds. If it's not, you're not running it stock, so check your BIOS settings. A lot of people are blaming Intel for extreme power draw when they are not running things stock. Some motherboards may overclock out of the box, but don't blame Intel for this.

And if I may ask, why is this power draw bothering you? Your PSU seems plenty powerful. Is it noise?


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## AsRock (Dec 26, 2020)

Could it not be that Corsair LPX memory at fault ?, maybe his bios needs a reset.


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

efikkan said:


> While Comet Lake is certanly less power efficient than Zen 3, the difference during gaming shouldn't be nearly that significant. At stock, your i9-10850K will throttle to 125W after 56 seconds. If it's not, you're not running it stock, so check your BIOS settings. A lot of people are blaming Intel for extreme power draw when they are not running things stock. Some motherboards may overclock out of the box, but don't blame Intel for this.
> 
> And if I may ask, why is this power draw bothering you? Your PSU seems plenty powerful. Is it noise?



for me the powerdraw itself is not the issue. the fact that i can pull 100W more than a 2080 Ti out of a CPU that is barely on par with a 5600X in Games is the issue.
and i guess nobody buys a K Chip to run it with heavily castrating powerlimits to show how efficient my 10 Core Chip is when it clocks down almost a GHz after X Seconds.
my 10850k ran at 5.1 GHz / 4.8 Ghz Cache and it chugged 150W while Playing Call of Duty. that's as much as 5950X in Prime95.

and it totally blame intel for running a 14nm+++++ architecture from late 2015.
their artificial motherboard incompatability.
their completely stupid PR:
"Up to 18% Faster Video editing" (do i pick B Rolls 18% Faster when i buy a 10900k?)
"Up to 10% more FPS in PUBG Mobile for Android and iOS" (?!?!?!?!)
"Up to X Times more soldiers on the field with Intel!!!"


i was a die hard intel fanboy (i even bought an 8086k back when it released even if i had a normal 8700k at the time)
but Intel as a company is so far away from the customer and their community that i just don't want to give them my money for a recycled product with a new name on the box.
Lisa Su is a fantastic person and she basically saved AMD and pushed it to a world leading Company within ~4 Years. AMD just deserves it.


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## freeagent (Dec 26, 2020)

If you are used to Intel 150w is nothing man. I like both companies. I don’t really have anything bad to say about Intel, except they did get a little lazy.. looks like that’s about to turn around. Really enjoying my new AMD.. but looking forward to what Intel brings to the table. Right now AMD has nothing on the table except old CPU’s because they can’t build their own new ones.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 26, 2020)

world leading company, sorry but    I don't think they ever have been. they are certainly doing better than they were i have no qualms admitting that, but in no way world beating. I wouldn't even call Intel world beating for that matter either.


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## freeagent (Dec 26, 2020)

They both make really strong calculators.


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## efikkan (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> for me the powerdraw itself is not the issue. the fact that i can pull 100W more than a 2080 Ti out of a CPU that is barely on par with a 5600X in Games is the issue.
> my 10850k ran at 5.1 GHz / 4.8 Ghz Cache and it chugged 150W while Playing Call of Duty. that's as much as 5950X in Prime95.


i9-10850K at stock will draw 125W sustained during gaming. 5950X will draw ~120-130W, and 5600X ~100W. See TPU's own numbers. So there isn't a whole lot of difference here.



WarTherapy1195 said:


> and i guess nobody buys a K Chip to run it with heavily castrating powerlimits to show how efficient my 10 Core Chip is when it clocks down almost a GHz after X Seconds.


Most people keep the power limit, and they definitely should. Removing it only yields a minor performance uplift and shortened lifespan.
If you decide to not run yours stock, that's your problem, not Intel's.

Buying non-K SKUs aren't really a good option anymore, as the 65W TDP is too crippling for anything beyond 4 cores on 14nm. Back in the days there used to be only small differences between K and non-K models, but today the K-models are the only ones anyone wanting a good desktop should consider from Intel. (unless they're buying Xeons etc.)



WarTherapy1195 said:


> and it totally blame intel for running a 14nm+++++ architecture from late 2015…
> 
> i was a die hard intel fanboy (i even bought an 8086k back when it released even if i had a normal 8700k at the time)
> but Intel as a company is so far away from the customer and their community that i just don't want to give them my money for a recycled product with a new name on the box.
> Lisa Su is a fantastic person and she basically saved AMD and pushed it to a world leading Company within ~4 Years. AMD just deserves it.


Neither is healthy.
You should strive for objectivity, not fanboyism and then getting disappointed. Both companies have disappointed repeatedly.
You should pick whichever product fits your needs the best, regardless of your feelings.
And a last tip; having more than one PC is not a bad idea for an enthusiast either


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 26, 2020)

efikkan said:


> i9-10850K at stock will draw 125W sustained during gaming. 5950X will draw ~120-130W, and 5600X ~100W. See TPU's own numbers. So there isn't a whole lot of difference here.
> 
> 
> Most people keep the power limit, and they definitely should. Removing it only yields a minor performance uplift and shortened lifespan.
> ...



I stick with Intel because it does what i need it to, and is absolutely stable which is what i want. I don't give a shit if it it use 20 or 50 watts more than any AMD chip, i am not gonna be watching my electricity meter and crying because my PC has consumed 100watts more power today. I had already bought this before the new ryzen series came out, and don't piss money so can't just switch on a whim. I will stick to this now till both AMD and Intel have got DDR5 systems out, or it dies, whichever comes first. I am not gonna switch to a 490 based setup either as i don't really see the point.


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## EarthDog (Dec 26, 2020)

Who needs some cheese with the wine?


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## kruk (Dec 26, 2020)

efikkan said:


> i9-10850K at stock will draw 125W sustained during gaming. 5950X will draw ~120-130W, and 5600X ~100W. See TPU's own numbers. So there isn't a whole lot of difference here.



PPT limit for the 5600X is *88 W*, but this doesn't mean every 5600X CPU will consume that much even at maximum load. Proof at Anandtech:





Not a big difference? Maybe in Witcher 3 (TPU test), but otherwise I disagree ...


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## efikkan (Dec 26, 2020)

kruk said:


> PPT limit for the 5600X is *88 W*, but this doesn't mean every 5600X CPU will consume that much even at maximum load. Proof at Anandtech:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's peak load, not sustained load. Peak load only really matters for the PSU, but for cooling etc. sustained power consumtion matters.
(I do wish Intel stopped having this PL2 limit, it only makes them look very bad consumption wise for a really marginal performance gain)


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

efikkan said:


> Neither is healthy.
> You should strive for objectivity, not fanboyism and then getting disappointed. Both companies have disappointed repeatedly.
> You should pick whichever product fits your needs the best, regardless of your feelings.
> And a last tip; having more than one PC is not a bad idea for an enthusiast either



i have enough hardware to build 10 PCs. (not at home in my flat but in my "Stash" at my parents house)
and i still have my 8086k, 9600k, 9900k.


has nothing to do with "fanboyism"..
if we want better products in the future... we should stop buying products from a company that recycles the same old shit since half a decade.


btw.
Still Stable!
No reboots, freezes or anything else so far.


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## Zach_01 (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> btw.
> Still Stable!
> No reboots, freezes or anything else so far.


It’s good to have it fixed, apparently!

As for power consumption
Every ZEN2/3 (all stock) CPU typically draws around 40~60W avg. when gaming, depending the game.


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## Mussels (Dec 26, 2020)

just replying without having read the whole thread:

2x 8GB Corsair vengence LPX 2400 Mhz ,1x8 GB Corsair vengeance LPX 3200 Mhz , 2x 16GB Trident Z Neo 3600 Mhz


Can you check if these are single or dual rank? corsair LPX is *well* known for being really incompatible with ryzen, especially the older stuff... and 3600Mhz is high overclocking for most ryzen chips. Hell even my 5800x only runs XMP 3600 on two of the four slots.

Its entirely possible you have three 'sets' of really crappy ram for ryzen here.

low current idle is normally only an issue with crap PSUs and you have two decent modern ones... maybe you have weird wall voltages (dips/spikes? for some reason? Hell maybe you've got a system that idles so low, the PSU has issues. It's been known to happen.


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

Mussels said:


> just replying without having read the whole thread:
> 
> 2x 8GB Corsair vengence LPX 2400 Mhz ,1x8 GB Corsair vengeance LPX 3200 Mhz , 2x 16GB Trident Z Neo 3600 Mhz
> 
> ...



all of these three Kits are fully prime95 Stable and passed several Hours of Memtest.

and they had nothing to do with the issue. (i am at home right now and only have the trident Z Kit here)


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## Mussels (Dec 26, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> all of these three Kits are fully prime95 Stable and passed several Hours of Memtest.
> 
> and they had nothing to do with the issue. (i am at home right now and only have the trident Z Kit here)



You're forgetting that the memory can cause issues on the IMC - i'm not saying it's faulty i'm saying it may be incompatible. Corsair LPX has a very very well known reputation for issues on ryzen, and doing what you've done with CPU voltages and the PSU idle voltage setting could totally be preventing the incompatibility from triggering.

Yes, you found a workaround - great. But you still dont know *why* it was happening


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

Mussels said:


> You're forgetting that the memory can cause issues on the IMC - i'm not saying it's faulty i'm saying it may be incompatible. Corsair LPX has a very very well known reputation for issues on ryzen, and doing what you've done with CPU voltages and the PSU idle voltage setting could totally be preventing the incompatibility from triggering.
> 
> Yes, you found a workaround - great. But you still dont know *why* it was happening



they were all stable in all test with stock settings and not the PSU Idle behaviour "fix" or changed CPU voltages.


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## Zach_01 (Dec 26, 2020)

Basically the static speed/voltage made it stable...
But, did you measure temperature, wattage and/or current(A) under load? Light or heavy...


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 26, 2020)

Zach_01 said:


> Basically the static speed/voltage made it stable...
> But, did you measure temperature, wattage and/or current(A) under load? Light or heavy...


yes.

and no. i don't run any static clock speeds or voltages.
i run completely stock but with the typical current load PSU setting (there is again.. still core sleep, 0W Core powerconsumption in idle on a bunch of cores.)
the only difference is that the voltage does not drop to .2V but instead to around .9 
the Vcore in Ryzen Master and HWinfo is still the same as before.



Mussels said:


> just replying without having read the whole thread:
> 
> Can you check if these are single or dual rank?



Should be single rank.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 27, 2020)

EarthDog said:


> Who needs some cheese with the wine?



Dryer than camel shit


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## phanbuey (Dec 27, 2020)

kruk said:


> PPT limit for the 5600X is *88 W*, but this doesn't mean every 5600X CPU will consume that much even at maximum load. Proof at Anandtech:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Witcher 3, most games/apps etc.  If you're running Cinebench or stress/AVX loads the intel chips will suck down a ton of wattage otherwise they are pretty tame.


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 27, 2020)

> EarthDog said:
> Who needs some cheese with the wine?


Tigger: Dryer than camel shit


comments like these are okay while stuff like "getting the same hardware again doesn't solve the issue" or "that's why RMAs exist" gets flagged as "Low quality comments"

i guess i am out.
feel free to discuss here. i won't answer or read this thread anymore.


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## Mussels (Dec 27, 2020)

low quality comments is an automatic feature, it's far from perfect

Some people went off topic here, we can do a thread cleanup if you want (i personally cant, in this forum section)


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## Deleted member 193596 (Dec 27, 2020)

No that's okay.
Wasn't the first time and probably not the last time.
I already got insulted or just non stop trolled a while ago for no reason from certain users here in this community.
You can close this thread if you want. I'll go to other forums.


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## EarthDog (Dec 27, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> No that's okay.
> Wasn't the first time and probably not the last time.
> I already got insulted or just non stop trolled a while ago for no reason from certain users here in this community.
> You can close this thread if you want. I'll go to other forums.


Report the offending posts if you think it went afoul. The staff will handle it as they see fit. I apologize if my post bothered you, but at the same time, I suggest you get thicker skin if people on the internet are getting to you. Nobody here is trolling you... 

Do understand you went from bitching and complaining about Ryzen stability (told you can RMA, which makes sense one post in) for 50 posts to bitching about Intel power draw (and w/e else) when that was suggested. It sounds like you aren't happy with anything out and whining about it. We get it... totally. Just lighten up a bit! I know I've sighed out loud about it (just didn't make a thread on it). 



> low quality comments is an automatic feature, it's far from perfect


Seriously? It is? This makes a lot more sense because some of these LQ posts are not LQ (different threads).


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## thesmokingman (Dec 27, 2020)

OP got what he invited with the burger flippers comment then he got hooked by the intel fans.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 27, 2020)

I suggested intel and stated mine has been 100% stable and kinda got jumped on for it. No worries though, I kinda get it now on tpu that amd is king and woebetide you if you mention the bad word Intel.
Sorry and I apologise if I seemed to be trolling, at my age I tend to just put what I think now and don't always think twice.
I get it amd is doing well, but I am sick of all the amd is king intel is shit inferences. The forum should at least seem to be neutral and not biased towards AMD which is the impression I get now.
Again I apologize and will hold my tongue in future.


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## efikkan (Dec 27, 2020)

Mussels said:


> You're forgetting that the memory can cause issues on the IMC - i'm not saying it's faulty i'm saying it may be incompatible. Corsair LPX has a very very well known reputation for issues on ryzen, and doing what you've done with CPU voltages and the PSU idle voltage setting could totally be preventing the incompatibility from triggering.


For clarity, are you talking about using JEDEC or XMP profiles?
XMP is not guaranteed to work on any system, but if you're talking about JEDEC speeds, which _should_ work on any system flawlessly, then this incompatibility is very useful information for prospective buyers. Such problems should not occur, but still, the occasional problems are known to happen. In such cases it means that either the IMC, CPU firmware or the memory itself isn't behaving 100% according to spec.


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## Mussels (Dec 27, 2020)

efikkan said:


> For clarity, are you talking about using JEDEC or XMP profiles?
> XMP is not guaranteed to work on any system, but if you're talking about JEDEC speeds, which _should_ work on any system flawlessly, then this incompatibility is very useful information for prospective buyers. Such problems should not occur, but still, the occasional problems are known to happen. In such cases it means that either the IMC, CPU firmware or the memory itself isn't behaving 100% according to spec.



Both, because some RAM sticks had subtimings set that worked fine on intel, but didn't on AMD - corsair LPX being the repeated example here. The early ones just did not have stable automatic settings on ryzen, and didnt for years - and people never specify what kits they have so we can never find out if they got a new or old one.


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## efikkan (Dec 27, 2020)

Mussels said:


> Both, because some RAM sticks had subtimings set that worked fine on intel, but didn't on AMD - corsair LPX being the repeated example here. The early ones just did not have stable automatic settings on ryzen, and didnt for years - and people never specify what kits they have so we can never find out if they got a new or old one.


The JEDEC DDR4 standard specifies which timings which are required for the various speeds 1600-3200 MHz.
The whole point of a standard is to ensure compatibility without having to test a billion possible hardware/software configurations. There should never be a need for having dedicated timings for a specific CPU. If a RAM module reports a SPD profile for e.g. 2666 MHz, the timings for this profile should comply with the JEDEC standard. Any JEDEC compliant CPU at 2666 MHz _should_ then be 100% compatible, if not the CPU will select a fallback profile which certainly should be.


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## 95Viper (Dec 27, 2020)

Keep it on topic.
Stop with the insulting and drama.

Thank You and have a nice civil discussion.


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## Mussels (Dec 27, 2020)

efikkan said:


> The JEDEC DDR4 standard specifies which timings which are required for the various speeds 1600-3200 MHz.
> The whole point of a standard is to ensure compatibility without having to test a billion possible hardware/software configurations. There should never be a need for having dedicated timings for a specific CPU. If a RAM module reports a SPD profile for e.g. 2666 MHz, the timings for this profile should comply with the JEDEC standard. Any JEDEC compliant CPU at 2666 MHz _should_ then be 100% compatible, if not the CPU will select a fallback profile which certainly should be.



And that is why the LPX modules have such a bad reputation, they did something that broke those standards


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## EarthDog (Dec 27, 2020)

efikkan said:


> The JEDEC DDR4 standard specifies which timings which are required for the various speeds 1600-3200 MHz.
> The whole point of a standard is to ensure compatibility without having to test a billion possible hardware/software configurations. There should never be a need for having dedicated timings for a specific CPU. If a RAM module reports a SPD profile for e.g. 2666 MHz, the timings for this profile should comply with the JEDEC standard. Any JEDEC compliant CPU at 2666 MHz _should_ then be 100% compatible, if not the CPU will select a fallback profile which certainly should be.


its more than speed/timings, but you're on the right path. Also, jedec IS the fallback/default. This is why any pc boots at 2133 if there is a 2133 jedec profile. 



Mussels said:


> And that is why the LPX modules have such a bad reputation, they did something that broke those standards


or something is different not covered in the very simple jedec standard. That's what a standard is.. something that fits within established parameter. You can put jedec xxxx without setting it to that standard. 



> JEDEC - This document defines the DDR4 SDRAM specification, including features, functionalities, AC and DC characteristics, packages, and ball/signal assignments. The purpose of this Standard is to define the minimum set of requirements for JEDEC compliant 2 Gb through 16 Gb for x4, x8, and x16 DDR4 SDRAM devices.



If you dont meet the criteria, they can't be jedec.


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## anubis44 (Dec 27, 2020)

WarTherapy1195 said:


> So i have a 5800X and a B550 Strix f.
> 
> i get random reboots with volmgr 161 as soon as i use my 5800x (the same SSD/windows installation works perfectly fine on my 10850k)
> then i get random hard crashes with cache hierachy hardware errors and none of them create a dump file.
> ...



From what you wrote here, it sounds like the one other part of the build (besides the CPU) that you could point the finger at is the motherboard itself. I have run into bad motherboards in the past myself, and I don't just mean the bios, I mean the motherboard hardware. If there's any way to swap the mobo for another one to test the CPU, I would definitely do that before blaming the CPU. CPUs are virtually never faulty in my 29 years of PC building experience. Lastly, check the pins on the CPU, just to make absolutely sure none of them are bent/broken off. That could also produce the symptoms you're describing, depending on which pin(s) are faulty.

Don't give up on AMD. It's almost certainly the motherboard.

Good luck!


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## Tatty_One (Dec 27, 2020)

Thread closed at OP's request.


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