# Radeon HD 4870 X2 Previewed, AA Performance a Trump Card



## btarunr (Jul 14, 2008)

HardOCP previewed the ATI Radeon HD4870 X2. In the preview it was pitted against a single BFG GeForce GTX 280 OC (overclocked) and Crossfire X setup using two cards was pitted against two GeForce GTX 280 cards in SLI. Across variable settings, the HD4870 X2 was compared to the GTX 280. In Crysis the competition was neck-to-neck while the ATI cards returned marginally lower average frame rates. In Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, the ATI cards outclassed the NVIDIA cards significantly, where the Anti-Aliasing (AA) performance of the cards proved to be a trump-card, with the cards returning over 30% performance increments in both single and Crossfire X configurations over the GeForce GTX 280 OC and its SLI configuration. With the AA bottleneck reduced, the R700 is a monster. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures shows what this card is truly capable of, the author of the preview goes on to use "AMD AA Performance FTW" to head a write-up on the AA system. AMD has reworked AA and also a new mode that doesn't tax the video memory as much has been added. The total of 2 GB GDDR5 memory only helps this cause. 

The card in Crossfire X peaked 700W though not much is revealed with the power-testing. You can read the article here.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## The Nemesis (Jul 14, 2008)

Price will be key, but the results look pretty darn good.


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## FR@NK (Jul 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Anti-Aliasing (AA) performance of the cards proved to be a trump-card



I just put together a crossfire 4870 setup and i've noticed no reduction in FPS when using 2x AA. I can just imagine what it would be like using 4-way 4870X2's  Now ATI just needs to design its cooler to pull air in from the sides instead of on top of the card.


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## petepete (Jul 14, 2008)

omg i cant wait two weeks from now this is gonna be the balls of my new pc!!


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## ShadowFold (Jul 14, 2008)

How this a preview? Seems more like a review to me..


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## Zehnsucht (Jul 14, 2008)

Well, it's only an engineering sample, so the final product will probably be better. Hence it's preview of what's to come and expect 


I'm actually more looking forward to the 4850x2, since I only game in 1680x1050. 

Any idea how the 4850x2 will be released compared to the 4870x2? (before, after, simultaneously)


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## indybird (Jul 14, 2008)

Zehnsucht said:


> Any idea how the 4850x2 will be released compared to the 4870x2? (before, after, simultaneously)


It will be released after; late august to early September I believe I heard.

-Indybird


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## btarunr (Jul 14, 2008)

Here's a much better one: http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=588&pageid=1

Watch how the R700 pwns XFX GTX 280 XXX.


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## das müffin mann (Jul 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Here's a much better one: http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=588&pageid=1
> 
> Watch how the R700 pwns XFX GTX 280 XXX.



god damn that's impressive its about damn time ati


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## vojc (Jul 14, 2008)

nice results at the same price for cards (X2 vs 280)


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## TooFast (Jul 14, 2008)

It really takes the gtx280 to school!


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## ShadowFold (Jul 14, 2008)

TooFast said:


> It really takes the gtx280 to school!



Your name pretty much sums up the HD 4870X2 lol


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## Edito (Jul 14, 2008)

The results are good, but ins`t obvious for a dual GPU to kill a single GPU lets wait to see a fair challenge between 4870x2 vs "GTX280 GX2"....


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## ShadowFold (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> The results are good, but ins`t obvious for a dual GPU to kill a single GPU lets wait to see a fair challenge between 4870x2 vs "GTX280 GX2"....



GTX 260 = 600$+ and HD 4870X2 = 500$. Look who beats who for the price.


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## vojc (Jul 14, 2008)

well x2 cost 550$
and the only real compare is 9800GX2 (it is faster than 280GTX)


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## bill_d (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> The results are good, but ins`t obvious for a dual GPU to kill a single GPU lets wait to see a fair challenge between 4870x2 vs "GTX280 GX2"....



what gtx280 gx2 it would need 5 power plugs and a spark arrester


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## Wile E (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> The results are good, but ins`t obvious for a dual GPU to kill a single GPU lets wait to see a fair challenge between 4870x2 vs "GTX280 GX2"....



All that matters is that it kills the 280 for less money. The fact that it has 2 gpus means nothing. As they say, "The ends always justify the means."


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## Edito (Jul 14, 2008)

ShadowFold said:


> GTX 260 = 600$+ and HD 4870X2 = 500$. Look who beats who for the price.



Ur right but is still a dual GPU and i think its not fair despite the fact (PRICE) cause in this meter we just can´t discuss ATI all the way but its good to a have a fair challenge...


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## ShadowFold (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> Ur right but is still a dual GPU and i think its not fair despite the fact (PRICE) cause in this meter we just can´t discuss ATI all the way but its good to a have a fair challenge...



Who cares if its 1 or 2 cards? If two of them beat a single high end card for a lower price everyone wins


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## Wile E (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> Ur right but is still a dual GPU and i think its not fair despite the fact (PRICE) cause in this meter we just can´t discuss ATI all the way but its good to a have a fair challenge...



It is fair. Price is all that matters to most consumers, not how many gpus a card has. They buy their cards based on how much performance they get for their money. This outperforms the 280 for less money. That's a perfectly fair comparison.


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

I thought the 4870X2 would be sold for $500 as AMD said they would never sell a GFX card for more than that.

Also, if the GTX280 is the same size as a 4870X2. Imagine the size of a GTX280GX2! 

Don't forget people, AMD and nvidia have gone about this different ways. Nvidia has a massively powerful but expensive single GPU. AMD has two less powerful and less expensive GPU's. Who cares. It has to be down to price/performance ratio. Even if nvidia do bring out a GX2 of the 280. (if they can fit it all onto one PCB) it will probably still be cheaper to buy two 4870X2's.


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## xu^ (Jul 14, 2008)

notice they didnt bother with a gtx280 sli lol

price comparisons are all very well but its STILL a dual card beating a single card ,obviously its going to win and yet your all raving over the fact its winning ,its bound to win fgs.

ive np with ATI beating nvidia at all i just think its very unfair the way you all compare cards on price rather than dual v single,some ppl simply dont want a dual card.

some ppl cant have a dual due to PSU limitations or just dont like them,and a single card is preferred,in which case the 280 wins regardless of the price difference.


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## Wile E (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> notice they didnt bother with a gtx280 sli lol
> 
> price comparisons are all very well but its STILL a dual card beating a single card ,obviously its going to win and yet your all raving over the fact its winning ,its bound to win fgs.
> 
> ...



I disagree. Again, most consumers only care about price/performance ratio. They couldn't care less about how the card manages that performance. This is still a single card, and therefore a perfectly fair comparison.

How would it be fair to compare a GTX280 GX2 against a 4870X2, when the GX2 would likely cost almost twice as much? That's like saying it's fair to compare a 2600Pro against an 8800GT.


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## ShadowFold (Jul 14, 2008)

All of those benchmarks are of two GTX 280's in SLi..


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> notice they didnt bother with a gtx280 sli lol
> 
> price comparisons are all very well but its STILL a dual card beating a single card ,obviously its going to win and yet your all raving over the fact its winning ,its bound to win fgs.
> 
> ...



What exactly is the difference between a GTX280 and 4870X2, performance aside? We dont have power comparisons yet. They are exactly the same size, and probably produce the same heat.

If the GTX280 and 4870X2 had the same performance, same power consumption, same size and same heat. But the 4870X2 was $100+ cheaper. Which would you pick?


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## xu^ (Jul 14, 2008)

is a matter of opinion tbh and mine is that its wrong to compare on price ,its  a single card with dual gpus on it lol so its hardly a single card technically speaking. which also means a larger PSU is required as your standard 500/600w psu that most average ppl will have most likely wont cut it.

anyway i respect ppls opinions even if i think they are wrong,so im not going to argue about it,just stating wat i think.
and for the record i will not buy a dual card from either camp be it ATI or nvidia or any1 else.


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## Easy Rhino (Jul 14, 2008)

some people get caught up in the whole ati/nvidia thing. to me, if 1 card with 2 gpus and a lower price tag  can outperform 1 card with 1 gpu then i know who the clear winner is...ME!


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> is a matter of opinion tbh and mine is that its wrong to compare on price ,its  a single card with dual gpus on it lol so its hardly a single card technically speaking. which also means a larger PSU is required as your standard 500/600w psu that most average ppl will have most likely wont cut it.
> 
> anyway i respect ppls opinions even if i think they are wrong,so im not going to argue about it,just stating wat i think.
> and for the record i will not buy a dual card from either camp be it ATI or nvidia or any1 else.



I dont want to start an arguement or anything either, but what I was trying to say, cus you keep coming back to power consumption. What if the 280 and 4870X2 consumed the same amount of power.
e.g. If you have a dual GPU card where each GPU uses 100w, then a single GPU card using 200w. The PSU wont know the difference.


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## xu^ (Jul 14, 2008)

just to be crystal clear...

imho price has nothing to do with it at all

its about the results,the benchmarks,the scores ,whatever you wish to call them and for the results to be comparable the cards in question MUST SURELY be basically the same ie: both dual cards or both single card solutions ,but this is not ,its a dual V's a single.

doesnt matter a jot that 1 may cost $100+ more ,the hardware is different,1 has only 1 gpu the other has 2 ,yet every seems to go on about price ,i fail to see where that comes into it taking all of the above into account.

its about the *"RESULTS on COMPARABLE"* hardware not the price.

id think the exact same if it was a dual Nvidia card v a single ATI btw ,yes the ATI wins on price but thats not the point of benchmarking is it ?


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 14, 2008)

Hmmm.... no power consumption parts to those reviews. I want to know how it handles the juice babeh!





			
				HardOCP said:
			
		

> More power testing going on now but we saw 700w system peaks under full CF load.



Fuggin' 'ell!


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> just to be crystal clear...
> 
> imho price has nothing to do with it at all
> 
> ...



ATi could have made a massively powerful GPU. But they have gone about it a different way. If you think about it. Nvidia has the GTX260 and GTX 280. They are two different GPU's. ATi in comparison have the 4870 and 4870X2 to compete. But they are using the same GPU, so keeping costs down. Have you seen the comparison between the rv770 and GTX280? its something like 4 times the size, lol!

I appreciate everyone has their own requirements from their hardware, but price plays a massive role, and for me, I couldnt care less if one manufactuer had 300 GPU's on a PCB against one. I go for best price/performance ratio, be it nvidia or ati.


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## Random Murderer (Jul 14, 2008)

must... get... 4870x2!


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 14, 2008)

Must... stop... drooling!


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

InnocentCriminal said:


> Must... stop... drooling!



lol. me too! Cant wait to get it. Wonder when pre-orders will start? Hope retailers dont inflate the price, because they think they can.


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## tkpenalty (Jul 14, 2008)

alexp999 said:


> ATi could have made a massively powerful GPU. But they have gone about it a different way. If you think about it. Nvidia has the GTX260 and GTX 280. They are two different GPU's. ATi in comparison have the 4870 and 4870X2 to compete. But they are using the same GPU, so keeping costs down. Have you seen the comparison between the rv770 and GTX280? its something like 4 times the size, lol!
> 
> I appreciate everyone has their own requirements from their hardware, but price plays a massive role, and for me, I couldnt care less if one manufactuer had 300 GPU's on a PCB against one. I go for best price/performance ratio, be it nvidia or ati.



^^^^^ This guy took the words from my mouth.

Seriously guys, *why* do you even care how performance and quality is attained? Is it some moral obligation? Because if it is you really need to get a dose of reality. 

Remember that two RV770's cores is equivalent to one GTX280 in surface area and transistor density. Therefore its pretty much even. Nvidia keeps things in one package, AMD keeps them in two. 

Performance and cost? Different story. AMD saw the inefficiencies in a monolithic die and decided to split the packages. Nvidia just went ahead. 

So... to us does the dual vs single really matter? No. Not at all. However the price does. Installing two small die packages onto one PCB isn't too hard. However installing one MASSIVE package is. You have to consider stresses etc. 

Did we EVER question the use of dual core? No. 

In the end the R700 is STILL cheaper to manufacture, and outperforms the GTX280. The R700 is going to be cheaper, upon retail moreover;  therefore we are the winners.

This isn't like the 7 series GX2 cards which had driver issues and only worked with some chipsets, this is a high end card that doesnt cost an arm and a leg. 


*and finally realise that all GPUs are multi cored; think of the stream processors, the components; all are single cores themselves. GTX280 and R700 BOTH have more than two processors. GTX280 puts them all in one package, R700 in two.*

Those perf numbers are really otherworldly almost... considering how its cheaper than the GTX280...


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

I over exaggerated a bit, lol. But you get the idea:







Source


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## vojc (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> Ur right but is still a dual GPU and i think its not fair despite the fact (PRICE) cause in this meter we just can´t discuss ATI all the way but its good to a have a fair challenge...



who cares, it is on single PCB, nvidia use dual PCB they suck 
anway...the size of the 2x4870cores and 1x 280GTX cores equals, so at the same die size ati is faster (lets call that 65nm vs 55nm)


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## xu^ (Jul 14, 2008)

vojc said:


> who cares, it is on single PCB, nvidia use dual PCB they suck
> anway...the size of the 2x4870cores and 1x 280GTX cores equals, so at the same die size ati is faster (lets call that 65nm vs 55nm)



obviosuly some ppl care or they wouldnt be posting in this thread


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## King Wookie (Jul 14, 2008)

Unto each his own I say.

My view is, healthy competition benefits us, the consumer.
While we may debate the technical merits of either solution, people vote with their wallets.

And don't stop the debating guys. It helps us to know our minds.


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> obviosuly some ppl care or they wouldnt be posting in this thread



I think we are just trying to work out what it is the people dont like about dual gpu solutions if they get the same or better job done at the end of the day, cheaper.


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## xu^ (Jul 14, 2008)

well i feel like im doing this  

so i give up ,but if u lot want to convince urselves that its a perfectly fair benchmark then feel free.
altho im going to be mailing evga about my faulty card as i didnt get any extra points in 3d mark cos of the price as most of you seem to 

anyway forgetting all the above ,it is good to see ATI on the up and up again after being behind for so long.and i hope nvidia respond quickly and then ATI to that etc etc ,its all good for us ,the humble consumer


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## vojc (Jul 14, 2008)

alexp999 said:


> I think we are just trying to work out what it is the people dont like about dual gpu solutions if they get the same or better job done at the end of the day, cheaper.



well no one from nvidiots cry abaut 9800GX2 and DUAL PCB


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## Wile E (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> is a matter of opinion tbh and mine is that its wrong to compare on price ,its  a single card with dual gpus on it lol so its hardly a single card technically speaking. which also means a larger PSU is required as your standard 500/600w psu that most average ppl will have most likely wont cut it.
> 
> anyway i respect ppls opinions even if i think they are wrong,so im not going to argue about it,just stating wat i think.
> and for the record i will not buy a dual card from either camp be it ATI or nvidia or any1 else.



And to average people, it's also wrong NOT to compare on price. That IS the comparison. While power consumption may be a concern, how many people do you know that would try to run a GTX280GX2 (if such a beast existed) on a 500/600W psu? That right there throws your comparable hardware argument out the window. By not using price as a comparison factor, you might as well pit the HD2400 against the GTX280, because by your logic, they're both single gpu cards, so it's a fair comparison.


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> well i feel like im doing this
> 
> so i give up ,but if u lot want to convince urselves that its a perfectly fair benchmark then feel free.
> altho im going to be mailing evga about my faulty card as i didnt get any extra points in 3d mark cos of the price as most of you seem to
> ...



Sorry you feel like that mate but I feel a bit  as to why you feel it is an unfair benchmark.

Like Wile E said. If you dont take into account price, it is like pitting a Bugatti Veyron against a Fiat Panda (now that I would like to see  )


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## xu^ (Jul 14, 2008)

they wouldnt try to run it on a 500/600 .i didnt say they would ,i said they most likely couldnt run a dual card on such a psu ,buy maybe they could run a single card on such a psu.

rubbish over the price anyway ,as ur benchmarking HARDWARE not prices ,its about the results not the price ,unless suddenly cheaper prices make your score increase,now theres a thought 

the comparable hardware argument i made is over a dual ati over a single nvidia ,when they should both be either dual or single not 1 of each ,you wouldnt bench a single core cpu v a dual core cpu and proudly announce to the world the dual pwnd it would u? its pretty obvious even to a n00b 2 is better than 1.
as for the 2400 v 280 no of  course its not fair ,competely diff generations. it should be..

gtx 260/280 VS hd4850/4870 as they are all the newest gens

and 4870x2 VS 9800gx2 as nvidia are lacking anything faster or newer  in dual gpu's atm
(replacing the 9800gx2 when and if nvidia come up with something newer)

and i wouldnt be saying on the 4870x2 VS 9800gx2 that the 9800 wins cos its cheaper ,that doesnt matter a bit ,its the results that count ,so obviously the clear winner of that fight is the ATI.

you all want to mix it up and then stick the price in ,fair enough ,is up to u but i think its totally wrong.

this is my last post on the subject as im bored of repeating myself with the rather obvious.
altho i will say this ,i wonder how many ATI fans would be as fast to say the exact same thing they are saying now about ATI if the positions were reversed and the nvidia card was faster and cheaper?
some of course but i suspect not all.


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> they wouldnt try to run it on a 500/600 .i didnt say they would ,i said they most likely couldnt run a dual card on such a psu ,buy maybe they could run a single card on such a psu.
> 
> rubbish over the price anyway ,as ur benchmarking HARDWARE not prices ,its about the results not the price ,unless suddenly cheaper prices make your score increase,now theres a thought
> 
> ...



Ok, get you now, lol. You are basically wanting to compare what "GPUs" of each company are capable of.

But a note on the dual vs single core thing. I would proudly announce it, if the prices were the same.

The way I see it there are two ways of doing it. One big GPU or two smaller ones. Nvidia and ATi have just gone about creating their flagship models in different ways.

But from your perspective. Yes, nvidia have built a much more powerful better performing "GPU" as it takes two ATi "GPUs" to compete.

But this comes at a price, which is what the rest of us are saying about. One nvidia GPU costs the same if not more than two ATi GPU's.

I wouldnt care what company it was, whoever gives me the most bang for my buck in my budget is the card I will get.


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## Megasty (Jul 14, 2008)

We are all entitled to our own opinions. SLI & CFx are the rage right now & dual gpu cards just put that notion into a _single_ card. For myself, 2 is always better than one. This thing is just 2 4870s on one PCB - which actually allows it to be faster than 2 4870s in CFx for a lower price than 2 4870s. That's win/win in my book, whether they're comparing it with the GTX280 or 2 of them in SLI.


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## zOaib (Jul 14, 2008)

Edito said:


> The results are good, but ins`t obvious for a dual GPU to kill a single GPU lets wait to see a fair challenge between 4870x2 vs "GTX280 GX2"....



2 gpu + kick ass + cheaper = Buying product

1 gpu + expensive + rip my ass = bad buying product


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## btarunr (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm a power-user, I have the know-how, it hardly matters to me of whether it's made of 2 GPUs or a big spread of Vegemite as long as it gives me better performance on a price-point. Seriously, its consumption of an extra 50-odd watts sets me back by merely $0.50 /month here, all I need to is watch lesser TV or make my toasts slightly lighter.


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## H82LUZ73 (Jul 14, 2008)

nvidia have built a much more powerful better performing "GPU" as it takes two ATi GPU's to compete.

Is this not the basic debate in cpu world ,where Intel dropped 2 cores on 1 die while AMD made 2 separate cores ?

I think these X2 cards are great for some guys on Intel uhmm boards that have 2 X8 pcie and can not get a board with 4 slots...also for guys who want CrossFire (please stop the XFire,there is a progam by that name Xfire.com) but do not want to upgrade to a 850 watt to 1200 watt PSU.


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## H82LUZ73 (Jul 14, 2008)

Megasty said:


> We are all entitled to our own opinions. SLI & CFx are the rage right now & dual gpu cards just put that notion into a _single_ card. For myself, 2 is always better than one. This thing is just 2 4870s on one PCB - which actually allows it to be faster than 2 4870s in CFx for a lower price than 2 4870s. That's win/win in my book, whether they're comparing it with the GTX280 or 2 of them in SLI.



1,4870x2+$559=We win 
2,4870`s +$329+$329=$658=we loose unless they drop down the 4850 to $150 and the 4870 to $200 mark then we all win.

PS
How long in real terms do you think customers are going to pay the green camp nearly $800 for 1 card ?( going by pricing in Canada.


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

H82LUZ73 said:


> 1,4870x2+$559=We win
> 2,4870`s +$329+$329=$658=we loose unless they drop down the 4850 to $150 and the 4870 to $200 mark then we alll win.



Where did u get the price of the 4870X2 from?


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## Megasty (Jul 14, 2008)

H82LUZ73 said:


> 1,4870x2+$559=We win
> 2,4870`s +$329+$329=$658=we loose unless they drop down the 4850 to $150 and the 4870 to $200 mark then we alll win.
> 
> PS
> How long in real terms do you think customers are going to pay the green camp nearly $800 for 1 card ?( going by pricing in Canada.



I expect by the time this comes out, the 4870 will be officially dropping in price - probably to the $250 lvl. As for the 4850, it should be at the $170 lvl, but you can already get it for that after rebates. But seeing it at that price b4 rebates isn't too far off either.

When it comes to buying a card, it all depends on what camp you prefer - even if you don't perfer any camp at all. There are 3 types of enhusiast level buyers: those who go green, those who go red, & those who go P/P. That's how it should be, even though those who go P/P seem to be the most logical.


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## ShadowFold (Jul 14, 2008)

The 4850 is already 189$ and the 4870 is 299$. I expect to see them at the prices you just said around launch. Atleast thats what im hoping for


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## Wile E (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> they wouldnt try to run it on a 500/600 .i didnt say they would ,i said they most likely couldnt run a dual card on such a psu ,buy maybe they could run a single card on such a psu.
> 
> rubbish over the price anyway ,as ur benchmarking HARDWARE not prices ,its about the results not the price ,unless suddenly cheaper prices make your score increase,now theres a thought
> 
> ...


Take note of my specs. I have an nVidia card. If the GTX280 was cheaper than the 4870x2, that's the card that would get my vote. But it isn't, so it doesn't.

And yours is the logic that is flawed. Benchmarks and architectures don't mean crap if a person can't afford to buy the card (ala GTX280).

And yes, I'm perfectly fine with pitting dual core cpus against single core, especially if the single core was more expensive. That situation is no different. Price point is everything in the computer world, and how fair comparisons are judged, not solely by differences in design. Price is ALWAYS a factor.

If price wasn't a factor, it would be fair to compare my QX9650 against a Phenom 9950 X4. I hardly think pitting a $1000 cpu against a $235 cpu is fair, do you?


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## H82LUZ73 (Jul 14, 2008)

alexp999 said:


> Where did u get the price of the 4870X2 from?



Seen it on some site ,Just keep seeing the $499 to $549 price tag,I still hope they sell at $499 like the 3870x2 when launched.

Also the price was a guesstimate...

Also the price from retailers depend on the brand,Like Palit selling the 4870 for $319 while the Sapphire goes for $10 more at $329. Same goes on with the 4850`s also.

Also don`t forget that at Driver Heaven they said some companies will have a overclocked versions across the board,Also ATI have said they can up the shader clocks in the second revision`s.If you think what these are doing to Nvidia now what are they going to do in 6 months time when all of this happen`s? I still say ATI is the best at price to performance cost wise.


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## Wshlist (Jul 14, 2008)

*AA, but what kind*

If you are talking AA you should really specify what kind, 'box' 'tent' or 'edge', since that makes a difference both in looks and in impact on speed due to how they are implemented.
I know it's more convenient to just put AA on sites and in graphs, but you can't anymore I fear.


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## sfp1987 (Jul 14, 2008)

This makes me hungry yum yum


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

H82LUZ73 said:


> Seen it on some site ,Just keep seeing the $499 to $549 price tag,I still hope they sell at $499 like the 3870x2 when launched.
> 
> Also the price was a guesstimate...
> 
> Also the price from retailers depend on the brand,Like Palit selling the 4870 for $319 while the Sapphire goes for $10 more at $329. Same goes on with the 4850`s also.



Okay, just wanted to check you didnt know something we didnt know, lol! I reckon it will definetly sell for $499 cus as just posted in the news, the GTX280 has been dropped to $500.


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## H82LUZ73 (Jul 14, 2008)

alexp999 said:


> Okay, just wanted to check you didnt know something we didnt know, lol! I reckon it will definetly sell for $499 cus as just posted in the news, the GTX280 has been dropped to $500.


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## KainXS (Jul 14, 2008)

xubidoo said:


> the comparable hardware argument i made is over a dual ati over a single nvidia ,when they should both be either dual or single not 1 of each ,you wouldnt bench a single core cpu v a dual core cpu and proudly announce to the world the dual pwnd it would u? its pretty obvious even to a n00b 2 is better than 1.
> as for the 2400 v 280 no of  course its not fair ,competely diff generations. it should be.
> 
> this is my last post on the subject as im bored of repeating myself with the rather obvious.
> ...



there are always people like this, they say its not fair when it is fair, Is it fair to consumers that Nvidia likes to sell cards for 500 and 600 dollars, costing more than better performing dual GPU solutions, I don't think so, do you, as a matter of fact you should be saying its not fair that Nvidia wants 500 dollars for a card thats sometimes slower than a card that costs 200 dollars less.

This is the second time Nvidia did this, Remember the 8800GTX and Ultra, but what made that different was you had 2 bad ass cards with no competitor in sight and now that there is a competitor its not fair.

oh please, 

This all comes down to how much performance you can get for your money and ATI beat Nvidia
It also comes down to how much performance you can get period, and ATI still beat Nvidia

for now, at least


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## vojc (Jul 14, 2008)

just another thing...if some one say that 4870 x2 sux couse of dual chip on board, than intel quad cpus absolutely suck too (and that is not true)


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## Megasty (Jul 14, 2008)

KainXS said:


> there are always people like this, they say its not fair when it is fair, Is it fair to consumers that Nvidia likes to sell cards for 500 and 600 dollars, costing more than better performing dual GPU solutions, I don't think so, do you, as a matter of fact you should be saying its not fair that Nvidia wants 500 dollars for a card thats sometimes slower than a card that costs 200 dollars less.
> 
> This is the second time Nvidia did this, Remember the 8800GTX and Ultra, but what made that different was you had 2 bad ass cards with no competitor in sight and now that there is a competitor its not fair.
> 
> ...




NV's stupid price complex always stand proud when they think its not going to have any competition. It bit them in the ass this time around. I really don't know why the charged so much for the thing when everybody & their mother knew the 4870x2 was right around the corner. Sure it was the fastest thing around for a month but NV took it for face value this time - then the next day the face value dropped by a forth


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## DarkMatter (Jul 14, 2008)

How is it that everybody forgot to talk about power consumption and temperatures? For me 90ºC at idle and 359 (468-109) watt power draw is unnaceptable, even for the fastest card in the world. Was not GTX280 unnaceptable with it's 236 watts? It was for me, now think what I think about this. And they don't show idle power, but looking at HD Crossfire cards I can get an idea.

There are other concerns aside from performance and price. I have heard enough stories of HD4870's failling on hot areas to even consider this a valid card.

I don't care if Ati uses 2 GPUs to compete with 1 GPU as long as it can perform well on all fronts. This is just not the way IMHO. It is delivering the performance, but the performance of the card doesn't justify that power draw. That's why I strongly believe 2 GPUs will never be able to compete with one faster/bigger GPU. It does now in perf/price, but that's only because Ati is using an smaller fab process and a narrower memory bus. But is underperforming vastly on power consumption and temps. With this card Ati has left me the impression that whenever Nvidia starts using a smaller process and GDDR5, the monolithic design (whichever it is) will destroy any multi-GPU, be it at performance, price, consumption, whatever.


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## btarunr (Jul 14, 2008)

100W more is just $1.00 /month extra of electricity bill for me


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> 100W more is just $1.00 /month extra of electricity bill for me



It's alright for some. :shadedshu


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## DarkMatter (Jul 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> 100W more is just $1.00 /month extra of electricity bill for me



Because of how much I use the PC, it's more than 4 euros month for me and around 50 euros year. That's without taking into account the extra conditioning that would be required to not get cooked myself with such temperatures (hmm forget about that: I would save in the winter ). I change cards every two years, that's a difference of more than 100 euros. Get the picture?


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## Megasty (Jul 14, 2008)

With all the GD PCs in my house, my el-bill is about $200 a month, an extra $1-2 for a 100W difference ain't gonna do me a bit of good  I even have a few solar panels on my roof - they don't help at all


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## btarunr (Jul 14, 2008)

It's not going to run at peak wattage all throughout? What is its idle wattage? Do you use some OS from the future that displays everything in SM 4.1 rendered graphics? Isn't there an AMD feature that underclocks this to up to 350MHz when idle? Doesn't the AMD slide show 100% more performance/watt over R680?


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

Hmm. I'm gonna have to give the GTX280 some serious consideration now. I was set on getting the 4870X2. But now the GTX280 is going for the same price. There are some aspects about the nvidia drivers which I really do prefer. (like being able to use nhancer) and setting game profiles much easier. Oh and being able to use EVGA precision  .

There is also the fact that the GTX280 consumes less power and will never have any issues with some games which dont get on with SLI/crossfire as it is a single GPU card.

But I dont know if future ATi drivers will cause the 4870X2 to pull ahead and make me think, "i wish I had bought..."

Cus it has twice the amount of ram at GDDR5 as opposed to GDDR3

Ah! I'm so confused as to which to get.

What is everyone else thinking?


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 14, 2008)

I think it's a little to early to say, hold out until the new Catalyst drivers out, see how they improve your 3870 and the 4K series and once the retail X2's hit the market then make a decision. Don't forget these are engineering examples.


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## alexp999 (Jul 14, 2008)

InnocentCriminal said:


> I think it's a little to early to say, hold out until the new Catalyst drivers out, see how they improve your 3870 and the 4K series and once the retail X2's hit the market then make a decision. Don't forget these are engineering examples.



True, I really hope they sort out the power consumption issues. 350W is ridiculous.

If they sort out the power issues, and the Cat drivers pull the 4870X2 even further ahead. I will probably get the 4870X2 . 100W of power really isnt worth it IMO when playing at 1680x1050.


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## HTC (Jul 14, 2008)

alexp999 said:


> I thought the 4870X2 would be sold for $500 as AMD said they would never sell a GFX card for more than that.
> 
> Also, if the GTX280 is the same size as a 4870X2. Imagine the size of a GTX280GX2!
> 
> Don't forget people, AMD and nvidia have gone about this different ways. Nvidia has a massively powerful but expensive single GPU. AMD has two less powerful and less expensive GPU's. Who cares. It has to be down to price/performance ratio. Even if nvidia do bring out a GX2 of the 280. (if they can fit it all onto one PCB) it will probably still be cheaper to buy two 4870X2's.





H82LUZ73 said:


> 1,4870x2+$559=We win
> 2,4870`s +$329+$329=$658=we loose unless they drop down the 4850 to $150 and the 4870 to $200 mark then we all win.
> 
> PS
> How long in real terms do you think customers are going to pay the green camp nearly $800 for 1 card ?( going by pricing in Canada.





alexp999 said:


> Okay, just wanted to check you didnt know something we didnt know, lol! I reckon it will definetly sell for $499 cus as just posted in the news, the GTX280 has been dropped to $500.



By the time it's released, both 4850 and 4870 should have fallen in price enough to make ATI able to price it @ $499.

Or do you dudes think only nVidia can lower card prices?


Many dudes say "OK: a GTX260 card for $299 is worth it" ... except the 4870 has already fallen to $304 and i wouldn't be surprised if it would fall to something like 249 within a month's time, which is when the R700 is launched ...

Can nVidia match 4870's price, VS GTX260 in a month from now? It might, but only if losing money, badly: it *should* cost more to build, no?


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 14, 2008)

alexp999 said:


> True, I really hope they sort out the power consumption issues. 350W is ridiculous.
> 
> If they sort out the power issues, and the Cat drivers pull the 4870X2 even further ahead. I will probably get the 4870X2 . 100W of power really isnt worth it IMO when playing at 1680x1050.



Exactly! I don't play higher than 1680 x 1050 and I don't need to. I'd like to, but it's more than enough. The 4870X2 and the GTX280 are for people with 24" monitors and above. Having a 4870X2 or the a like would be pretty wasted on a monitor lower than that (for me anyway) the extra power consumption isn't enough to warrant me to buy one, especially as it'll be more expensive in the long run. Yeah, I'd be able to up the details and enjoy that at 1680 x 1050, the thing is I'm not sure if I would as I'd be worrying about my leccy bill too much.


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## HTC (Jul 14, 2008)

InnocentCriminal said:


> Exactly! I don't play higher than 1680 x 1050 and I don't need to. I'd like to, but it's more than enough. The 4870X2 and the GTX280 are for people with 24" monitors and above. Having a 4870X2 or the a like would be pretty wasted on a monitor lower than that (for me anyway) the extra power consumption isn't enough to warrant me to buy one, especially as it'll be more expensive in the long run. Yeah, I'd be able to up the details and enjoy that at 1680 x 1050, the thing is I'm not sure if I would as I'd be worrying about my leccy bill too much.



That's why they call this a *high end* card.

Wouldn't you agree?


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## InnocentCriminal (Jul 14, 2008)

Wouldn't I?!


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## yogurt_21 (Jul 14, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Because of how much I use the PC, it's more than 4 euros month for me and around 50 euros year. That's without taking into account the extra conditioning that would be required to not get cooked myself with such temperatures (hmm forget about that: I would save in the winter ). I change cards every two years, that's a difference of more than 100 euros. Get the picture?



performance per watt hasn't really been ati's thing since the 9800's. the x800's were a a little hot, the x1800's definetly were as well as the x1900's and don't get me started on the 2900xt.  (sure the 3870's were a little better ) but overall sure the gtx280 beats it in  performance per watt, for most people buying this card, it won't matter. for me it wont. in az electricity is dirt cheap and I'd pay less than 1$ extra a month for 100w increase. and my psu is already enough for crossfirex. you may have an issue in that departement, but on a a64x2 4800, iseriously doubt you'd be getting the full potential of either of these cards anyways. all in all those interested in performance per watt aren't going to be buying a card of this caliber. a 9800gtx+ would suffice. 

in the highest graphics arena all that matters is overall performance. which in everything but crysis, goes to the 4870x2.


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## Darkrealms (Jul 14, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Here's a much better one: http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=588&pageid=1
> 
> Watch how the R700 pwns XFX GTX 280 XXX.



Thanks for the link, wonder why ATI limited them to only 4 games . . .


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## DarkMatter (Jul 14, 2008)

yogurt_21 said:


> performance per watt hasn't really been ati's thing since the 9800's. the x800's were a a little hot, the x1800's definetly were as well as the x1900's and don't get me started on the 2900xt.  (sure the 3870's were a little better ) but overall sure the gtx280 beats it in  performance per watt, for most people buying this card, it won't matter. for me it wont. in az electricity is dirt cheap and I'd pay less than 1$ extra a month for 100w increase. and my psu is already enough for crossfirex. you may have an issue in that departement, but on a a64x2 4800, iseriously doubt you'd be getting the full potential of either of these cards anyways. all in all those interested in performance per watt aren't going to be buying a card of this caliber. a 9800gtx+ would suffice.
> 
> in the highest graphics arena all that matters is overall performance. which in everything but crysis, goes to the 4870x2.



First of all I'm going to upgrade soon. Finally.  Was waiting until Nehalem, but since there's only going to be enthusiast Nehalems, no perofrmance or mainstream, I will go with a cheap Q6600 for now.

Second I'm not an benchmark enthusiast so I don't care if my card is not used to it's full potential. If I needed an upgrade I could very well buy the X2 now for my 4800+ because it would play well in a future upgrade.

Third my point was that FOR ME it's a really bad card because I use the PC for more than 15 hours day (me or my brother, sometimes my father...) and I'm either playing, watching videos or working with 3DMax that uses the card too. That's more than 12 hours a day on full load, and effectively 100w more means 50 euros more each year. This means that I would prefer to buy a card 100 euros more expensive instead. Also even with my 700w PSU, I woudn't be compfortable with the X2.

And last, temperatures. The heat output of my 8800 GT is already too much for my liking. I don't even want to imagine at what level you have to put the air aconditioner for the ambient temperature to stay at 25ºC. This is important even from the economic point of view. Almost the same extra money you are paying to power the card, you will pay to cool the ambient that the card is warming. Funny eh?


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## H82LUZ73 (Jul 14, 2008)

HTC said:


> By the time it's released, both 4850 and 4870 should have fallen in price enough to make ATI able to price it @ $499.
> 
> Or do you dudes think only nVidia can lower card prices?
> 
> ...



Did you miss this ?

Also the price from retailers depend on the brand,Like Palit selling the 4870 for $319 while the Sapphire goes for $10 more at $329. Same goes on with the 4850`s also.

What I am saying is these cards here get priced to what the company makes,ASUS and Sapphire are the 2 expensive ones here in Canada,You should have seen the price on the 280 up here 2 weeks ago,hence the $800 price.
I myself will  get 2 4850s and run in crossfire (Xfire is a program guys).If they go to $150 for each then I`m spending just over $300 for 2 cards that outperform the 280 and is even in some games to the 4870 and 4870x2.


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## Selene (Jul 15, 2008)

FYI GTX260 ASUS is now $279.99 after $30.00 MIR.
So id like to see SLI GTX260s vs 4870x2


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## Hayder_Master (Jul 15, 2008)

AA , is the way to discover the real performance of the graphic card


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## Hayder_Master (Jul 15, 2008)

one 4870 better than one gtx 260 , in most tests


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## WarEagleAU (Jul 15, 2008)

Dual core, single core, semantics really. This is one beast of a card and Im glad ATI finally got it going again.


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## H82LUZ73 (Jul 17, 2008)

I broke down and got a 4870 Sapphire card and loving the beast...


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## Tatty_One (Jul 17, 2008)

ShadowFold said:


> GTX 260 = 600$+ and HD 4870X2 = 500$. Look who beats who for the price.



GTX280 is less than $500 in the US now but having said that, I still think  the x2 looks the better option, certainly for anyone who needs that power, say someone running 2 monitors at above 1900 resolutions, which I spose is like almost noone really


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## Eeek (Jul 19, 2008)

*?*

Not sure why people are talking back and forth about fair and whats not fair about single vs dual gpu single cards. but facts are whatever your opinion is GTX280 is so far the fastest card. But the price tag of it sort of puts people in a dilema to which of the best they can afford.  For the people with a huge pocket can easily afford tri sli gtx280 which looks like will be the best at this point, but No games out there require so much yet. So It looks like a waste of money to me. and by the time there are games that require that much, we'll have a whole new line of generation vgas. as for the price matter. ATI HD4870x2 is going to be around $549, and its official you can google official 4870x2 prices and links will pop up. Now it's already been released in TW a 2GB 4850 DDR3. From powercool. it's on their website under news. So US Price is not determined yet. Which I dont believe is worth buying yet. ASUS/MSI/GIG is also releasing a 1GB 4850 Some time soon, they already have their specs of it on their own websites with aftermarket coolers.  Rumors and I say rumors because its not 100% Official yet but has been spoken of supposedly by AMD about another line of x2 which is the 4850x2. It's supposed to be 1GB of DDR5 memory. and also coming out another month or two after the 4870x2. and price is a guess around $399-400. I was hoping they wouldnt so that way 4870 would possibly drop down to 230-250 solid. But on newegg Asus 4870 is already 254 after Rebates. About the rumor on Nvidia Releasing a gx2 model is not entirely true, They are sort of giving up, and starting a whole new redesign of vgas to move onto the new Generation of DDR5. That's also on their site and their Mod closed alot of threads about some gx2 rumor. Not really throwing in their white towl but.. Guys Nvidia decided to team up with ATI. thats right. Because of some dispute between intel and nvidia. Nvidia decided to help ATI/AMD for the battle vs Intel. I was actually an Nvidia Fanboy, Who wasn't when it comes to wanting best performance on a PC. But ATI always had my eye on video quality since the 9800 series.  Now save your flames cause I may be alittle outdated but so far what I said was all from a week worth of web browsing and reading a ton of forums and articals. I think it's time for me to go ATI as well.


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## alexp999 (Jul 19, 2008)

Eeek said:


> Not sure why people are talking back and forth about fair and whats not fair about single vs dual gpu single cards. but facts are whatever your opinion is GTX280 is so far the fastest card. But the price tag of it sort of puts people in a dilema to which of the best they can afford.  For the people with a huge pocket can easily afford tri sli gtx280 which looks like will be the best at this point, but No games out there require so much yet. So It looks like a waste of money to me. and by the time there are games that require that much, we'll have a whole new line of generation vgas. as for the price matter. ATI HD4870x2 is going to be around $549, and its official you can google official 4870x2 prices and links will pop up. Now it's already been released in TW a 2GB 4850 DDR3. From powercool. it's on their website under news. So US Price is not determined yet. Which I dont believe is worth buying yet. ASUS/MSI/GIG is also releasing a 1GB 4850 Some time soon, they already have their specs of it on their own websites with aftermarket coolers.  Rumors and I say rumors because its not 100% Official yet but has been spoken of supposedly by AMD about another line of x2 which is the 4850x2. It's supposed to be 1GB of DDR5 memory. and also coming out another month or two after the 4870x2. and price is a guess around $399-400. I was hoping they wouldnt so that way 4870 would possibly drop down to 230-250 solid. But on newegg Asus 4870 is already 254 after Rebates. About the rumor on Nvidia Releasing a gx2 model is not entirely true, They are sort of giving up, and starting a whole new redesign of vgas to move onto the new Generation of DDR5. That's also on their site and their Mod closed alot of threads about some gx2 rumor. Not really throwing in their white towl but.. Guys Nvidia decided to team up with ATI. thats right. Because of some dispute between intel and nvidia. Nvidia decided to help ATI/AMD for the battle vs Intel. I was actually an Nvidia Fanboy, Who wasn't when it comes to wanting best performance on a PC. But ATI always had my eye on video quality since the 9800 series.  Now save your flames cause I may be alittle outdated but so far what I said was all from a week worth of web browsing and reading a ton of forums and articals. I think it's time for me to go ATI as well.



Any chance you could split that post up a bit so its easier to read, its hurting my eyes, lol!


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## Eeek (Jul 19, 2008)

LoL
Sorry, well if you have questions about what i said just ask and I can just re answer it if it'll make things easier, such as price or the basic specs of whatever youre curious on
sorry for the long post


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## Chicken Patty (Jul 28, 2008)

Good to see the 4870x2 taking it to the GX2 in pretty much most tests i've seen except in crysis.  However, keep in mind the GX2 has been out for a bit now, the 4870x2 is not even out, so it'll only get better, way better I suppose.


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## trt740 (Jul 28, 2008)

hayder.master said:


> one 4870 better than one gtx 260 , in most tests



no they are about the same


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## trt740 (Jul 28, 2008)

Tatty_One said:


> GTX280 is less than $500 in the US now but having said that, I still think  the x2 looks the better option, certainly for anyone who needs that power, say someone running 2 monitors at above 1900 resolutions, which I spose is like almost noone really



in that case the Asus 3870x2 does 4 monitors and cost 229.00, plus still is a great performer at those resolutions. With physx on this card it would rock aswell.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121247 at half the cost or near so.


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## newconroer (Jul 29, 2008)

btarunr said:


> HardOCP previewed the ATI Radeon HD4870 X2. In the preview it was pitted against a single BFG GeForce GTX 280 OC (overclocked) and Crossfire X setup using two cards was pitted against two GeForce GTX 280 cards in SLI. Across variable settings, the HD4870 X2 was compared to the GTX 280. In Crysis the competition was neck-to-neck while the ATI cards returned marginally lower average frame rates. In Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, the ATI cards outclassed the NVIDIA cards significantly, where the Anti-Aliasing (AA) performance of the cards proved to be a trump-card, with the cards returning over 30% performance increments in both single and Crossfire X configurations over the GeForce GTX 280 OC and its SLI configuration. With the AA bottleneck reduced, the R700 is a monster. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures shows what this card is truly capable of, the author of the preview goes on to use "AMD AA Performance FTW" to head a write-up on the AA system. AMD has reworked AA and also a new mode that doesn't tax the video memory as much has been added. The total of 2 GB GDDR5 memory only helps this cause.
> 
> The card in Crossfire X peaked 700W though not much is revealed with the power-testing. You can read the article  here.
> 
> Source: HardOCP




What did I just hear...lower frame rates in Crysis......... *buzzer sound*  next competitor please.

As for the AA comment in AoC, um, for anyone who's actually played the game, and spent several months since beta working on it's engine capabilities, Nvidia cards (and ATi) as far back as the original G80 and 3xxx can handle AA absolutley fine. In fact, due to it's CPU limitations (even at higher resolutions), increasing AA can essentially let the GPUs 'breathe,' like a properly naturally aspirated motor. 

I bet they didn't turn on supersampling transparency AA though, nor did they have a fun time watching their frames dip like Crysis when they started casting massive amounts of spells. Do they even use manually edited particle density? 

I don't even want to think about what's going to happen to the cards when DX10 hits AoC in a few months.


Anyways, people who review AoC no squat about the game. They still think 3500 distance slider (at max) means your pushing the game as high as it goes ... 

I'm really starting to question these crude and unfounded blogs/reviews that pop up on the web and find their way to our forums, via the lovely (no names mentioned) 'news' staff, who end up citing one source who's sited a source and so on and on and on.


Even if the X2 comes out at $499, it's still not worth it for those big on the 'price/performance' pedestal. What can this card possibly offer over a GTX280, 4870 or even   a bloody 8800 Ultra? It's not going to reduce minimum frame issues, it's not going to let you run 16x in Crysis, it's not going to stop micro stutter...



I swear I really hope I'm wrong, ATi cannot shoot themselves in the foot right now, by trying to unleash some impractical GPU just so they can take the 'crown' for a few months; especially not when they've already moved on to their next gen products.


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## Chicken Patty (Jul 29, 2008)

newconroer said:


> What did I just hear...lower frame rates in Crysis......... *buzzer sound*  next competitor please.
> 
> As for the AA comment in AoC, um, for anyone who's actually played the game, and spent several months since beta working on it's engine capabilities, Nvidia cards (and ATi) as far back as the original G80 and 3xxx can handle AA absolutley fine. In fact, due to it's CPU limitations (even at higher resolutions), increasing AA can essentially let the GPUs 'breathe,' like a properly naturally aspirated motor.
> 
> ...



I realize everybody has their opinions, but keep in mind the 4870x2 has proven to be as good or better than the GTX280/GX2, and they are using beta drivers.  These cards aren't even out yet.  It has been said that before launch there will be new drivers, and it'll do a lot better on Crysis.  Right now Nvidia is getting owned with the bang for the buck ordeal, thats what most people want, good performance for little money.  Imagine the 4870x2 for $499????  Who would want a GX280????  Only true Nvidia enthusiasts.  Just my two cents.  But of course I have the right to be completely wrong as well.


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## Zax85 (Aug 13, 2008)

H82LUZ73 said:


> I broke down and got a 4870 Sapphire card and loving the beast...



*Good to have you on the right side!* 


Just waiting for the 4870x2 now (Sapphire offcourse)... ATI for the win!


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## Chicken Patty (Aug 13, 2008)

H82LUZ73 said:


> I broke down and got a 4870 Sapphire card and loving the beast...



What did you have before the 4870???


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