# Lung cell images show how intense a coronavirus infection can be



## micropage7 (Dec 27, 2020)

Coronavirus particles (red) overwhelm a human lung cell (blue and purple) in this artificially colored scanning electron micrograph. Mucus is highlighted in green.
EHRE LAB/UNC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE


New closeup views of lung cells show just how prolifically the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 can replicate once it infiltrates the respiratory tract.

In the lab, pediatric pulmonologist Camille Ehre and colleagues at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill infected cells that line the airways in the lungs with SARS-CoV-2, waited 96 hours and then snapped scanning electron micrograph images of the virus-laden cells.

“Once a cell is infected, it is completely taken over by the virus, producing an astonishing number of viruses,” Ehre says. In a lab dish of about 1 million human cells, she says the viral load can skyrocket from about one thousand infectious viruses to 10 million in just two days. The new images were published September 3 in the _New England Journal of Medicine_.

Cells that line the respiratory tract and their hairlike protrusions called cilia help clear airways of inhaled particles and pathogens. These types of cells are also specifically targeted by the coronavirus. Once infected, they churn out “astronomical numbers” of viral particles, Ehre says, potentially propelling the particles deeper into the lungs, which can cause pneumonia, or out into the air where they can infect others.

“These images of airway cells jam-packed with viruses make a strong case for the use of masks to limit SARS-CoV-2 transmission whether an individual has symptoms or not,” Ehre says. Widespread mask wearing could help contain such explosive viral replication from spreading beyond a single individual.





Coronavirus particles (small, spiky spheres) coat a human lung cell and its hairlike cilia in this scanning electron micrograph (left; higher-resolution view at right).C. EHRE/_NEJM _2020




SARS-CoV-2 virions (red). EHRE LAB, UNC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE





A cell is infected by SARS-CoV-2 particles (red; artificially coloured).Credit: Dr Katherine Davies, National Infection Service/SPL

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid19-infection-lung-cell-images

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article245754170.html

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

I had covid in the last winter (only confirmed recently).  It was a nasty thing that made you feel like you could not breathe, and to this day I feel I have reduced lung capacity.

I have a feeling it took more than a few years off my life.


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## Gmr_Chick (Dec 27, 2020)

Those images are incredible. Terrifying, but incredible 

And @R-T-B I'm sending lots of airhugs your way!


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## micropage7 (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I had covid in the last winter (only confirmed recently).  It was a nasty thing that made you feel like you could not breathe, and to this day I feel I have reduced lung capacity.
> 
> I have a feeling it took more than a few years off my life.


and it is far from closing the book since now we have the new corona virus
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

You can continue living with 10% of your lung capacity, however the question is airway clearage which covid blocks and halting the disease progress because your lungs are specialized organs, you cannot regenerate them once disease has remissed.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> You can continue living with 10% of your lung capacity



You first.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> You first.


Cute, but misguided to be going against the physiology.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

These aren't lung cells by the way, these are mucosal skin cells, they are the ones with cilia clearing the passage ways.
Lung cells don't have these beautiful anemone thingies...


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Lung cells don't have these beautiful anemone thingies...



Yes, lungs do.  It's how it improves surface area.  They are the cillia you are talking about.

Debating whether or not they are lung cells when they are in the lungs is pendantic.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Yes, lungs do. It's how it improves surface area. They are the cillia you are talking about.
> 
> Debating whether or not they are lung cells when they are in the lungs is pendantic.


How have you not won the Nobel, yet?
You can't even spell 'cilia'.


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## Aquinus (Dec 27, 2020)

With COVID being a vascular disease, it _can_ do a heck of a lot more than just damage your lungs. It amazes me that some people don't take it seriously.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> With COVID being a vascular disease, it _can_ do a heck of a lot more than just damage your lungs. It amazes me that some people don't take it seriously.


It is vasculitic, if we are talking about the vessel lining injury. Pretty serious stuff. Think like "STROKE" level serious.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> How have you not won the Nobel, yet?
> You can't even spell 'cilia'.



What on earth, man.  You can't form a sentence that everyone can understand half the time and are worried that I put one too many "l"'s in cilia...

I was joking about the lung capacity thing.  You can chill.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> What on earth, man.  You can't form a sentence half the time and are worried that I put one too many "l"'s in cilia...


Yes, when some rough diamond such as yourself, confuses cilia for villi(in the intestines) I get the hives.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Yes, when some rough diamond such as yourself, confuses cilia for villi(in the intestines) I get the hives.



What's with the passive agressive crap man?  "Rough Diamond...  have you won the nobel yet?"

No, and I don't plan to.

I refuse to thread crap with you further.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> No, and I don't plan to.


Perhaps, you should think bigger. People discover new organs all the time. Anatomy is a path to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.


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## Sithaer (Dec 27, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> With COVID being a vascular disease, it _can_ do a heck of a lot more than just damage your lungs. It amazes me that some people don't take it seriously.



I'm tempted to show these images to a friend of mine who still thinks its nothing and doesn't care about it..
But then again he would most likely tell me that its photoshopped or something. _'gave up trying to reason with him'_


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I refuse to thread crap with you further.


That is quite the misunderstanding you got there coming to lecture me and stuff...
I like the suggestion though, *maybe they do transfer oxygen.*

I like the gills idea. Better win the Nobel with it...


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## claes (Dec 27, 2020)

@mtcn77 bringing that LDE


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

claes said:


> @mtcn77 bringing that LDE


Thanks, a compliment is a compliment. Some people have brains, some BDE - or should I say 'rona?


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## the54thvoid (Dec 27, 2020)

Quit bickering. And some allowance should be given for mispelt words. Please keep things civil.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

At least try to hide your ignorance in a thread of science?
There is no room for interpretation: ciliated epithelium is everywhere the respiration tract. Lungs are the organs at the end. Your lungs aren't your noses, ears, ovaries, or testes.
Don't get fussy when you stand corrected.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 27, 2020)

While your point on cilia is sort of correct (the initial pic was cilia -part of but not the cell), in general, there is often room for interpretation in science. The point of science is to discuss and investigate, to eliminate what is not, and to verify what is. Much of anatomy is pretty much solid ground. Most scientific theory is robust enough but even there, debate can be had around certain elements. But that isn't the point here.

The point in the forum is to remain civil and try not to condescend. A good few posts were LQ'd because of that spiralling theme.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

I mean, I wasn't trying to debate anything.  Just post my experience.  Sorry to all for the drama.  Definitions at that level are not something I know or care to debate.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

Come on now, you aren't even flagging his false information. Is it condescending to have to name this? He comes with his gaslight torching the tracks derailing the thread and it isn't even flagged. Why do I concern myself with ignorants, there is no hope.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

Yeah.  Sorry.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 27, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> These aren't lung cells by the way, these are mucosal skin cells, they are the ones with cilia clearing the passage ways.
> Lung cells don't have these beautiful anemone thingies...








Bronchial epithelial cells. They are lung cells. Lining the lungs. But they are still called lung cells. It is literally in the article. If this is what you're referring to?


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

I have nothing on you. It is just that ignorant guy who is trying to gaslight everything I say and virtue signalling by apologising thereafter. It is so ignorant to be pulled into the cyclejerk. If you add a reply block feature, it would be a treat.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 27, 2020)

I understand. That is why a few posts were LQ'd.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 27, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I had covid in the last winter (only confirmed recently).  It was a nasty thing that made you feel like you could not breathe, and to this day I feel I have reduced lung capacity.
> 
> I have a feeling it took more than a few years off my life.



Pretty sure that is what I had in January 2020, pneumonia for the first time in life is what the Doctor said. I call bs, but tests were not readily available then so I will never know. I 100% had covid in late November and early December, as an official test and my symptoms confirmed. Symptoms were completely different the second time I got it.

It has however motivated me to get super healthy, as I no longer can rely on the medical community to save me, they are just pill pushers who really don't care and never have in my experience. When I had salmonella poisoning at age 17 and couldn't afford the medicine, no one gave a damn, I just suffered and vomited for weeks, and more recently with Covid, my recovery would have went so much smoother if they hooked me up to a electrolyte water drip, because it was so damn hard to drink/eat, and I was sleeping a ton, and sweating a ton. Hospital not allowed to take me though unless unable to breathe, lol... because our trillion dollar healthcare system can't send a nurse to house down the road to hook me up to a drip and show my mom how to change the bag or something. Everything has become so political and bureaucratically buried through red-tape it is clear to me now the medical community can never help me, and I must help myself.

I work out daily now, and the last 3 years taking high quality vitamins/minerals, and water only for last 5 years. /flex

Covid experience has only reinforced my beliefs.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

If you LQ that one statement where he preaches second guessing basic biology that would be great.
Look, I would love to state it is lungs. It is not. If it were, we wouldn't have lung transplants. I hope the message is clear.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> Pretty sure that is what I had in January 2020, pneumonia for the first time in life is what the Doctor said. I call bs, but tests were not readily available then so I will never know. I 100% had covid in late November and early December, as an official test and my symptoms confirmed. Symptoms were completely different the second time I got it.
> 
> It has however motivated me to get super healthy, as I no longer can rely on the medical community to save me, they are just pill pushers who really don't care and never have in my experience. When I had salmonella poisoning at age 17 and couldn't afford the medicine, no one gave a damn, I just suffered and vomited for weeks, and more recently with Covid, my recovery would have went so much smoother if they hooked me up to a electrolyte water drip, because it was so damn hard to drink/eat, and I was sleeping a ton, and sweating a ton. Hospital not allowed to take me though unless unable to breathe, lol... because our trillion dollar healthcare system can't send a nurse to house down the road to hook me up to a drip and show my mom how to change the bag or something. Everything has become so political and bureaucratically buried through red-tape it is clear to me now the medical community can never help me, and I must help myself.
> 
> ...



January is about when I had it too, maybe late december but hard to say because felt mild like allergies at first.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> my recovery would have went so much smoother if they hooked me up to a electrolyte water drip, because it was so damn hard to drink/eat, and I was sleeping a ton,
> ...
> 
> I work out daily now, and the last 3 years taking high quality vitamins/minerals, and water only for last 5 years. /flex


That is some sick diarrhea. Big props! Try to eat mashed potatoes, and yoghurt next time.
I once caught the same ailment from eating mussels. Lost 15 pounds at one week mark. Best diet ever.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 27, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> That is some sick diarrhea. Big props! Try to eat mashed potatoes, and yoghurt next time.
> I once caught the same ailment from eating mussels. Lost 15 pounds at one week mark. Best diet ever.



Wouldn't call it the best diet ever, I was crying alone almost every night cause I was 17 and thought I was dying.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 27, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> Wouldn't call it the best diet ever, I was crying alone almost every night cause I was 17 and thought I was dying.


You feel your blood being drained. I cannot think of any other analogy.


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## Vya Domus (Dec 27, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> With COVID being a vascular disease, it _can_ do a heck of a lot more than just damage your lungs. It amazes me that some people don't take it seriously.



I don't know, hitting a lamppost at 100 mk/h can also do a lot more damage than people realize, wont really change anything knowing that.

It's an infectious diseases, almost everyone will get it no matter how serious or not they think it is and how bad it will affect them wont change either based on that.


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## R-T-B (Dec 27, 2020)

Vya Domus said:


> almost everyone will get it no matter how serious or not they think it is and how bad it will affect them wont change either based on that.



That isn't a certainty, and more medical knowledge of the implications of being infected is never a bad thing.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 28, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> That isn't a certainty, and more medical knowledge of the implications of being infected is never a bad thing.



The new UK variant has already spread to 4 other countries officially, probably many more unofficially. and it spreads 70% faster than the first variant of covid. there is no stopping it, unless we get lucky and a vaccine really does provide immunity for 12+ months.  any less than that and too much of the population that doesn't get the vaccine will keep it hopping around until your vaccine wears off.


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## R-T-B (Dec 28, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> The new UK variant has already spread to 4 other countries officially, probably many more unofficially. and it spreads 70% faster than the first variant of covid. there is no stopping it, unless we get lucky and a vaccine really does provide immunity for 12+ months.  any less than that and too much of the population that doesn't get the vaccine will keep it hopping around until your vaccine wears off.



I wasn't claiming we'd stop it, only disputing the claim that catching it is a certainty.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 28, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> The new UK variant has already spread to 4 other countries officially, probably many more unofficially. and it spreads 70% faster than the first variant of covid. there is no stopping it, unless we get lucky and a vaccine really does provide immunity for 12+ months.  any less than that and too much of the population that doesn't get the vaccine will keep it hopping around until your vaccine wears off.


This is the tropic effect. It goes on so long as there is new viral contagion, that is what the lockdowns are supposed to protect you from.
Even an attenuated, live, virus vaccine can develop this and become infective again(which some live vaccines do, like the polio jonas salk vaccine).
The question is how many times the virus has spread between hosts. It is a low possibility due to the virus losing all its pathogenicity along the way without its prior host adaptation traits which are stripped during the vaccine process, but it can happen *if* *you continually feed the troll. *It only takes a few frame shifts.


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## Caring1 (Dec 28, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> The new UK variant has already spread to 4 other countries officially, probably many more unofficially. and it spreads 70% faster than the first variant of covid. there is no stopping it, unless we get lucky and a vaccine really does provide immunity for 12+ months.  any less than that and too much of the population that doesn't get the vaccine will keep it hopping around until your vaccine wears off.


Yeah thanks, Australia is one of those countries now due to some idiot traveling overseas when borders should be locked to prevent this.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 28, 2020)

The 'UK' variant also emerged independently in South Africa. I imagine it's possible it happened in other countries too - it's just a matter of time before these mutations (which follow genetic transcription 'errors') occur naturally in the population given the spread of the virus. Though, if mainly UK based, it's our first proper Brexit export.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 28, 2020)

Caring1 said:


> Yeah thanks, Australia is one of those countries now due to some idiot traveling overseas when borders should be locked to prevent this.



I was surprised to learn about the travel as well, I just assumed most traveling internationally was locked down by now... I know the airline I travel with has no flights scheduled until April.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 28, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> The 'UK' variant also emerged independently in South Africa. I imagine it's possible it happened in other countries too - it's just a matter of time before these mutations (which follow genetic transcription 'errors') occur naturally in the population given the spread of the virus. Though, if mainly UK based, it's our first proper Brexit export.


This isn't an error. It is an adaptation. It is called tropism. Faster in species phenotypes increase in the gene pool. It is the opposite of a vaccine. You are helping the virus gain persistence by serial infections by providing new hosts. Just like vaccines blunt such competitive traits by providing no competition for the virus, these  amplify them by selecting for them in a race condition. How do you stop it? By making tropism indeterminant in the virus'es replication cycle: you multiply it in a tube.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 28, 2020)

A genetic mutation that enables better survivalism is technically an error. That it's beneficial to the organism is secondary. Genetic mutation is a natural but 'random' process. We don't hear about failed mutations. Only those that provide a beneficial outcome.

Adaptation is a human retrospective of hindsight. The virus didn't adapt. It just mutated.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 28, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> A genetic mutation that enables better survivalism is technically an error. That it's beneficial to the organism is secondary. Genetic mutation is a natural but 'random' process. We don't hear about failed mutations. Only those that provide a beneficial outcome.
> 
> Adaptation is a human retrospective of hindsight. The virus didn't adapt. It just mutated.


That is a just bogus. Darwin invented evolution whereas Mendel founded the genetics. Especially, when it comes to genetics, it is a huge fallacy to explain with Darwin, especially since Darwin did not have any medium for what he found, like the genes.
With viruses, it is a grey area between inheritance or epigenetics since the limited genome changes a lot. For it to be called epigenetics, the gene has to stay constant while epigenetic modification has to be the adaptation, not the gene itself; however it is still a modification to what happens in its tropism: if it changes a lot, it ceases to function. So it doesn't evolve, it gains adaptation traits which are lost when say, adapting to bats, or minks. Each host has a different tropism.

PS: if you want it to mutate, it has to have a different survival method than tropism - like integrating into the genome. That way it doesn't hurt the virus to make bad copies while in tropic events they do.


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## R-T-B (Dec 28, 2020)

I seriously would rather not get into a "Evolution is Bogus" debate here.  Lets stick to what we know.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 28, 2020)

Much of evolutionary biology (which viral mutation comes into) is played out on an accidental stage. A virus does not choose to adapt to it's host. A whole meaure of mutations occur and one might work. That's not intentional. Mutation is random. Yes, there are environmental factors which can influence mutation (normally on very sort term scales) but in general, it is random. 1000 mutations are worthless to that organsim at that time but if one works - presto - evolution.

As for the Mendel Darwin issue - what the latter explained is not diminished by the discovery of genetics - if anything, the genetic field helps support Darwin's theory of the diversification of a species.

Adaptation is a deliberate process (to adapt to overcome) - mutations, *by and large*, are not deliberate. But as R-T-B says, this isn't a thread on evolutionary biology. Nor are many of us skilled enought to discuss it omn the genetic level, except perhaps for @xkm1948.


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## r9 (Dec 28, 2020)

Way to keep a thread like this open ... you just have to suck in the moderator into the conversation.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 28, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> Much of evolutionary biology (which viral mutation comes into) is played out on an accidental stage. A virus does not choose to adapt to it's host. A whole meaure of mutations occur and one might work. That's not intentional. Mutation is random.


That is attribution bias. You are projecting that it has no meaning, however it has. 2nd Thermodynamic preservation of energy law. What keeps a virus present is the same as more stable forms of chemical compounds being present in life. It is a form of energy conservation.



r9 said:


> you just have to suck in the moderator into the conversation.


Well, unless I do, trolls fester.



the54thvoid said:


> the genetic field helps support Darwin's theory of the diversification of a species.


That is false. If there is a simpler explanation, that one is true.



the54thvoid said:


> 1000 mutations are worthless to that organsim at that time but if one works - presto - evolution.


That is special exception attribution. Neither of these are any less important, they all serve to save energy.
It is the reason DNA came after RNA since it is a more stable form of chemical reaction...


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## the54thvoid (Dec 28, 2020)

r9 said:


> Way to keep a thread like this open ... you just have to suck in the moderator into the conversation.



In fairness, in threads, in conversation, I'm a member. I just have a hall pass to boot. Sometimes, metaphorically, to boot.

Edit: though I'm out of this thread now. Unless required to return...


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## Space Lynx (Dec 28, 2020)

the54thvoid said:


> Much of evolutionary biology (which viral mutation comes into) is played out on an accidental stage. A virus does not choose to adapt to it's host. A whole meaure of mutations occur and one might work. That's not intentional. Mutation is random. Yes, there are environmental factors which can influence mutation (normally on very sort term scales) but in general, it is random. 1000 mutations are worthless to that organsim at that time but if one works - presto - evolution.
> 
> As for the Mendel Darwin issue - what the latter explained is not diminished by the discovery of genetics - if anything, the genetic field helps support Darwin's theory of the diversification of a species.
> 
> Adaptation is a deliberate process (to adapt to overcome) - mutations, *by and large*, are not deliberate. But as R-T-B says, this isn't a thread on evolutionary biology. Nor are many of us skilled enought to discuss it omn the genetic level, except perhaps for @xkm1948.



the thing I find most fascinating is why does the virus mutate to begin with, i mean it had millions and millions of copying itself itself just fine, minks, cats, dogs, humans all had it and no mutation until now, what was the trigger, why did it mutate, i honestly don't think there is an answer, I understand the argument 'well cells change billions of times over time bla bla bla and your bound to get an error eventually' like I get that... but still i just don't see why it took so long to mutate if it was capable of it to begin with, i dunno


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> what was the trigger, why did it mutate



It mutates all the time.  One just helped it out majorly, resulting in that variant being more "fit" so it exploded in size.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> why did it mutate


It is not a mutation, only DNA integrating viruses mutate. They are called oncoviruses for this specific reason.
This one has tropism, its infectivity(host persistence) is by repeat infection. It just persists by it, thus it has to be fit. By the way, the difference between Sars and Sars-2(Covid-19) is just this much of adaptations at its docking mechanism.
Originally Sars didn't have a large docking anchor, Sars-2 extended the range of its folding pleats, rearranging its docking mechanism helped in its adaptation.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

Of course it's mutating.  You don't need DNA to mutate.  You only need RNA replication, which is precisely what viruses do.  How do you think there are a many variants of the common cold, AKA coronavirus?

@xkm1948 , back me up here Man (or correct me).


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> You don't need DNA to mutate.


You do, they are called oncoviruses. They are all DNA viruses, or negative strand viruses. Then some smart person will state hiv, not knowing what a retrovirus is.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> You do, they are called oncoviruses. They are all DNA viruses, or negative strand viruses. Then some smart person will state hiv, not knowing what a retrovirus is.



Thats why I called on @xkm1948, he actually works this field for a living.  I'm not here to argue with you, only get at the truth.

Maybe it's not doing the mutation, as it relies on other cells to transcribe the RNA in the end, but it's still having a muation occur during that transcription.  That I remember, pretty sure.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Thats why I called on @xkm1948, he actually works this field for a living.  I'm not here to argue with you, only get at the truth.


You guys just have a dogma. You cannot call it genetic inheritence.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> You guys just have a dogma. You cannot call it genetic inheritence.



As I said, I'm waiting on an expert opinion.  I'm not presenting anything as fact, just what I remember from highschool biology.  Would love some insight.

And I'm not calling it "genetic inheritance."  I'm calling it a mutation.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> but it's still having a mutation occur during that transcription.


It has an error correction mechanism. Quite the opposite of what evolution ideologists think what the virus is doing, it just lives its genetic inheritance, not to evolve and establish your self reinforcing "life without a cause" belief. To you, the virus cannot have an inheritance because it lives by chance while you folks are specially made(believe me, it defies my logic how a darwinist also carries a nested creationist special exception just for itself).
It seems evolutionists are the actual miracle proponents while mendel has no special clauses.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> It has an error correction mechanism.


I am aware (at least for DNA), but it's not perfect (and also only in DNA virus types, not RNA based), hence mutations.






						The error-prone ways of RNA synthesis
					






					www.virology.ws
				






> Even though DNA polymerases have proofreading abilities, they still make mistakes – on the order of about one misincorporation per 107 to 109 nucleotides polymerized. But the RNA polymerases of RNA viruses are the kings of errors – these enzymes screw up as often as one time for every 1,000 – 100,000 nucleotides polymerized. This high rate of mutation comes from the lack of proofreading ability in RNA polymerases. These enzymes make mistakes, but they can’t correct them. Therefore the mutations remain in the newly synthesized RNA.



Please don't try and make this political.


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## Space Lynx (Dec 29, 2020)

All I know is, I wish I had a remote stable job.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> I am aware (at least for DNA), but it's not perfect (and also only in DNA virus types, not RNA based), hence mutations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to say this hot potato is not for debate.
RNA viri aren't as a whole error prone, it is the 'retroviruses' that are because they cannot proofread. This virus has a quarter the rate of error that hiv has. For it to have mutations, it must continue to function with imperfect copies of itself. This one doesn't, it only is infective when it synthesizes perfect copies of itself. You cannot have what you are suggesting in a virus with NO latency.


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## yotano211 (Dec 29, 2020)

lynx29 said:


> All I know is, I wish I had a remote stable job.


Youtube is hiring, I made $7 in adsense last month from youtube.


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## xkm1948 (Dec 29, 2020)

It is RNA virus. So far it does not seem to integrate itself into human cells’ genome so it is not a retrovirus, yet.

It needs host cell protein synthesis machinery to make new viral RNA and capsules.

Also you do not need DNA to mutate. Viral RNA replication relies on RNA directed RNA polymerase. It is a protein and it makes errors, that is the source of mutation.



the54thvoid said:


> A genetic mutation that enables better survivalism is technically an error. That it's beneficial to the organism is secondary. Genetic mutation is a natural but 'random' process. We don't hear about failed mutations. Only those that provide a beneficial outcome.
> 
> Adaptation is a human retrospective of hindsight. The virus didn't adapt. It just mutated.




Virus needs to adapt to a wide variety of hosts’ immune system. That is why larger infected population tends to give super spreaders viral strain


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## kapone32 (Dec 29, 2020)

Regardless those images are eye watering in the reality of why people end up on respirators. I will be wearing a mask full time in public now too. If there is a vaccine that can clear that up I plan on taking that too.  One thing I would suggest to everyone is to try to run a mile a day and do a mucinex flush.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> It is RNA virus. So far it does not seem to integrate itself into human cells’ genome so it is not a retrovirus, yet.
> 
> It needs host cell protein synthesis machinery to make new viral RNA and capsules.
> 
> ...



That's what I thought, thanks.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> Also you do not need DNA to mutate.


Yes, you do. Mutation is a confounding term with no place in biology. It is found in oncology(cancer biology) and such viruses are called oncoviruses.


xkm1948 said:


> Virus needs to *adapt* to a wide variety of hosts’ immune system.


Even you had to say it properly: it is called an 'adaptation'.
Viri are different. They are both obligate parasites, but more than that, they have no external free living lifecycle: when they lose the potential to infect - if they wouldn't have a progeny even when interacted with its host cell due to being malfunct, it is literally dead, the end, for such virus bodies, they can no longer progress in life.
This is different than a mutated cell which continues to operate with faulty genes. These viri aren't it.


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## Aquinus (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> It has an error correction mechanism.


So does the human genome, but errors still occur when when the genes that code the gene checks are the ones that mutate. This is how cancer begins.


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## dragontamer5788 (Dec 29, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> So does the human genome, but errors still occur when when the genes that code the gene checks are the ones that mutate. This is how cancer begins.



Cancer cells happen all the time in healthy... everybody. Children, adults, etc. etc. Everyone has cancer cells. Cancer becomes deadly when your own body is unable to kill off cancel cells, and the errors propagate across your body.

The ultimate error correction: kill it before it spreads.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> So does the human genome, but errors still occur when when the genes that code the gene checks are the ones that mutate. This is how cancer begins.


Like I told you, those are called oncoviruses.

A chicken with a dud egg is not hatching mutated eggs, they are infertile.


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## Aquinus (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Like I told you, those are called oncoviruses.
> 
> A chicken with a dud egg is not hatching mutated eggs, they are infertile.


RNA viruses are susceptible to mutation as well, be it a favorable or unfavorable change. We can't control chaos.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> RNA viruses are susceptible to mutation as well, be it a favorable or unfavorable change. We can't control chaos.


There is nothing chaotic. It is an expense to run machinery, proofreading mechanisms are no different. The virus kingdom just by default has less live offspring. A bacteria always has 2 progeny in each replication, a virus has less than 100%  effective replication rate. That has nothing to do with genetics. They first have to make it to be statistically significant. Virus bodies are fragile, they don't always do. Think of 0 safety checks, if it even had 'some' like a silent infection, or turned itself into a sleeper gene inside your host genome, it would categorically classify with a potential to mutate. So there is a stark difference between a virus and an oncovirus.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> There is nothing chaotic. It is an expense to run machinery, proofreading mechanisms are no different. The virus kingdom just by default has less live offspring. A bacteria always has 2 progeny in each replication, a virus has less than 100%  effective replication rate. That has nothing to do with genetics. They first have to make it to be statistically significant. Virus bodies are fragile, they don't always do. Think of 0 safety checks, if it even had 'some' like a silent infection, or turned itself into a sleeper gene inside your host genome, it would categorically classify with a potential to mutate. So there is a stark difference between a virus and an oncovirus.



Dude you are literally arguing with someone infinitely more qualified than you now.  That tells me all I need to know.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Dude you are literally arguing with someone infinitely more qualified than you now.  That tells me all I need to know.


How do you judge that?
Basically, this is what happens when you don't use genetic inheritance and try to stick with your old ways. When you say evolution/mutation, you don't get whether the variant virus can or cannot 'inherit' its genes.
You have the wrong perspective.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> How do you judge that?



@xkm1948 literally does this for a living.  What's your criteria?



mtcn77 said:


> You have the wrong perspective.



Says who?  You?  Why should I care?


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

PS: don't try to discredit me. Find any other hobby.



R-T-B said:


> @xkm1948 literally does this for a living.  What's your criteria?


That is beside the point. Either stick with the topic, or don't. This is not an authority troll fest.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> That is beside the point.



Not if you keep trying to disrupt the topic with your supposed expertise, it's not.

However, you are correct that it's pointless to discuss this further.  I am sure it is apparent to readers what is going on here.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Not if you keep trying to disrupt the topic with your supposed expertise, it's not.


This is the main debate.
You guys are not up to feat in understanding what is what.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> This is the main debate.
> You guys are not up to feat in understanding what is what.



No, but you clearly are.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

Who gets to inherit its genes determine the genepool. I'm sure it is pretty self-evident apart from those that are wearing darwin goggles and not scientifically attune.


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## Aquinus (Dec 29, 2020)

@mtcn77 and @R-T-B please stop. You know that the powers that be are watching. Let's try to keep it civil, shall we?


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> No, but you clearly are.


I don't condone your behaviour, you seem upset and unable to discuss your views in an eloquent manner and seem to resort to derision. It is not okay, but very characteristic with your past actions.


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## Caring1 (Dec 29, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Regardless those images are eye watering in the reality of why people end up on respirators. I will be wearing a mask full time in public now too. If there is a vaccine that can clear that up I plan on taking that too.  One thing I would suggest to everyone *those still healthy enough* is to try to run a mile a day and do a mucinex flush.


Fixed that.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> @mtcn77 and @R-T-B please stop. You know that the powers that be are watching. Let's try to keep it civil, shall we?



Roger, I'm out.  I try to sort facts from fiction.  It's not personal for me but as it's taking that turn you are right, we're finished.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> @mtcn77 and @R-T-B please stop. You know that the powers that be are watching. Let's try to keep it civil, shall we?


I discuss science. Those that be that are against it, please take the elegant way.


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## Aquinus (Dec 29, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> I discuss science. Those that be that are against it, please take the elegant way.


You're being rhetorical. @R-T-B isn't wrong when he says that you should listen to what people like @xkm1948 have to say, considering his day job deals with genomics.

All I'm saying is that you two need to behave. We're all adults here, right?


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## claes (Dec 29, 2020)

I’m just reading gobbley gook at this point. If you’re going to claim to be the smartest person in the room please use complete sentences and grammatically correct language.


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## R-T-B (Dec 29, 2020)

Aquinus said:


> All I'm saying is that you two need to behave.



It's worth mentioning I am partially Autistic.  A side effect of this is a loyalty to facts above people, well above what is often socially appropriate.  Ending debates often happens well beyond what is appropriate for a "normal" viewing audience.

In that vein I appologize if I have overstepped.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 29, 2020)

Guys, Darwin didn't write "the selfish gene". Richard Dawkins did. At the time, Darwin wrote fables and stories while Mendel put forth foundations. Stop appropriating Mendel's science like they are the same thing. Mendel founded the genetics. You have to use his terms.
Just because you want it, you cannot put your own signpost on another intellectual property.


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## yotano211 (Dec 29, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Dude you are literally arguing with someone infinitely more qualified than you now.  That tells me all I need to know.


I blocked him long time ago. Its best to do so.


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## Tomgang (Dec 30, 2020)

Coronavirus is no joke and I don't understand people that do not take it seriously. Yes corona is not as deadly as Mers, but it is still 3 times more deadly than the normal flu and even people that survived and young, can have grim consequences even after recovery. Like tiredness, lower lung function, lose of taste and smell senses. 

A friend of mine got corona last week and lost taste and smell sense from it. He is recovering from it now. But he's been told that it can take up to a year for his smell/taste sense to return. He is young and with any underlying illness.

So yeah corona is no joke. Specially for some people. I have respect for the virus, but don't fear it. I try to avoid to get it.


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## xkm1948 (Dec 30, 2020)

2020 and I am already used to this. My mom’s 60+ yrs old friends suddenly knows way more about viral genomics than me: microbiology M.S. Genetics PhD, works at a tier 1 research University on large scale genomic and epigenomics.  But yeah, I might be the ignorant one.


Once again I dont want to get sucked in some crazy folks who already have their mind wrapped. It is the biological version of “flat earthers”

Science communication is not my strong suite. So I will try to make it as simple as I can.

RNA can and will mutate. Mutations happens when you make errors durimg RNA replication. No enzyme on this fking earth is perfect. There is ALWAYS error is replication that results in mis-base-pairing. RNA is worse in this sense as it is single strand and no way for correction enzymes to repair. RNA virus hinges on fast and dirty replication, compared to DNA virus’s accurate and slow replication. Think about the amount of viral particles replicated per cell, think about the number of human cells, by chance there will be tons of mutations. Any negative mutation will be selected out simply because they will fail to replicate. Whichever survives will be considered “successfully mutated and adapted”

I’m out.


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## plat (Dec 30, 2020)

Those electron micrograph photos are taken of human lung cells in a lab?  I shudder to think what an actual lung looks like in someone who is struggling to survive on a ventilator.  I guess we have to make the intuitive leap and say that the images would be similar, if not identical. 

Definitely not slacking off mask-wise.  Maybe not until Summer of 2021 when the majority are vaccinated already (one hopes). Ironically, it's hard to breathe with this thing over my nose and mouth.  The cloth gets saturated a lot.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 30, 2020)

xkm1948 said:


> Any negative mutation will be selected out simply because they will fail to replicate. Whichever survives will be considered “successfully mutated and adapted”


When you say it like that it means adapted to host, a.k.a tropism.
You are literally describing inheritance.
MD undergrad.



xkm1948 said:


> RNA is worse in this sense as it is single strand and no way for correction enzymes to repair.


This part is false, only retroviruses have no way to repair because they are negative strand transcribed(reverse transcriptase facilitated). It writes different codons than it starts with. It integrates to genome. When it is faulty, they aren't negatively selected out.


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## xkm1948 (Dec 30, 2020)

Believe what you want to believe. Not my duty to educate a pre-med undergrad nor would i want to waste my precious time arguing such things.  

Good things medical school acceptance rate is so low so we can weed out the crazy ones.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 30, 2020)

I'm sure the prejudice goes back to Darwin.


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## Kursah (Dec 30, 2020)

Friendly reminder from your neighborhood moderation team that going outside of constructive debate/discussion to personally attack, discredit or shame others is inappropriate and will be met with warnings and reply bans moving forward. We appreciate your cooperation.


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## pcmasterrace (Dec 30, 2020)

Masks don't contain nor stop the spread of this super scary disease that we all have to hide from until our trusted governments tell us that we are all safe! stop the spread, wash your hands and wipe your bums!! BTW is it airborne yet?  don't mix with people unless you have to fight for the last 2 rolls of toilet paper in the supermarket, or travel on a packed underground to get to work everyday, BUT..... it's not all doom and gloom because covid doesn't come out past 10pm or affect children in school even though they'e meant to be the superspreaders spreading super-covid and cocaine-fueled-hyper-covidXXL edition that has been found only minutes ago!!! time to go into tier 11 immediately people, godspeed and godbless during these horrible times.


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## R-T-B (Dec 30, 2020)

Shaming is not my goal, only establishing qualifications.

To be clear, I'm as unqualified as Joes hotdog shack on this matter, and there is no shame in recognizing that.  That's why I pinged elsewhere.



yotano211 said:


> I blocked him long time ago. Its best to do so.



Autism at work;  don't block anyone.  Confuses me.


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## mtcn77 (Dec 30, 2020)

@pcmasterrace, Lovely snarks. Let me be your guide;

Masks do stop the spread, look to the third point as to why,
You cannot wash your hand and be done with it, you have to use 'soap' as well, this is an enveloped virus, solitary water is effective only against unenveloped virus types,
It is airborne up to 2 meters, by wearing the mask, we change the air jets, the mask turbulence makes air go swirly and slows its air velocity.


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## claes (Dec 30, 2020)

This thread is embarrassing


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## mtcn77 (Dec 30, 2020)

Okay, I said it before this virus has a quarter the error rate that HIV has. We have to put this into perspective;
HIV has 16 kilobases(16,000) while this virus(30,000) is right at the peak of rna virus genomes(32,000 max). So, having a single exonuclease can do wonders for its inheritance, you see: twice more complex genome with a quarter error rate is 8 times better transcription fidelity.
Actual tests indicate it can repair 90% of the errors, it really messes with the drugs used against it - it heals them even faster than its own errors.


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## pcmasterrace (Dec 30, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> @pcmasterrace, Lovely snarks. Let me be your guide;
> 
> Masks do stop the spread, look to the third point as to why,
> You cannot wash your hand and be done with it, you have to use 'soap' as well, this is an enveloped virus, solitary water is effective only against unenveloped virus types,
> It is airborne up to 2 meters, by wearing the mask, we change the air jets, the mask turbulence makes air go swirly and slows its air velocity.


They work in theory as long as they are of medical grade N95 or above, they work as long as everyone wearing them aren't making them useless by constantly adjusting them with their hands, touching their face, touching things in shops, on transport, other people etc and then they become useless, which is most of the time.... Even N95 masks become useless when you factor these things in, I see people messing with their face masks and touching things and then themselves on multiple occasions during a half hour shopping trip, not too mention most people are wearing little more than a cotton t-shirt over their face  I'd rather not wear a cotton T-shirt over my mouth that I'm breathing in pathogens over a long period of time, when I am going to come into contact with many contaminated surfaces throughout a normal day, touching my face, touching surfaces, adjusting my mask etc,I'd rather trust good old mother nature who has been around for billions of years.

Hand washing should be made universal, it's basic hygiene, this has been proven for about 200 years when medical science revealed that soap, water, disinfectant etc were the key to fighting infection and performing successful surgery without dying from gangrene and blood diseases.

And of course the golden 2 metre rule, that get's thrown out of the window the minute you set foot in a supermarket or a bus, tube, workplace etc surely if the velocity was to change then the same particles might not be taking the same path but are very much still present and will indeed take another path depending on airflow and size of the space they are present in, other people nearby, surfaces etc?


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## mtcn77 (Dec 30, 2020)

pcmasterrace said:


> I'd rather trust good old mother nature who has been around for billions of years.


Yeah, it is the same mother nature that has sprung this live petri dish experiment.
People get infected thinking there is a solid medium, if infection counts remain stagnant. That is just not the case, at each spread, the virus is getting more adapted to the host immunity. This is what a vaccine development is, in its inverse.


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## pcmasterrace (Dec 30, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Yeah, it is the same mother nature that has sprung this live petri dish experiment.
> People get infected thinking there is a solid medium, if infection counts remain stagnant. That is just not the case, at each spread, the virus is getting more adapted to the host immunity. This is what a vaccine development is, in its inverse.


Fair enough, I'd rather take my chances as a 40 year old than want to risk it with a vaccine that has been created, tested, trialled and rolled out within 6 months  wish me well


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## mtcn77 (Dec 30, 2020)

pcmasterrace said:


> they work as long as everyone wearing them aren't making them useless by constantly adjusting them with their hands, touching their face, touching things in shops,


We should place soap+water dispenser stands, disinfectants work in 2 minutes general while soap and water is effective at 20 seconds.
You can touch objects, but you have to wash your hands with soap before touching your face.
Masks cannot be touched without altering their mesh structure. They have to be disposed at every 5 hours, or after 8 hours at a total of 5 intermittent uses.



pcmasterrace said:


> Fair enough, I'd rather take my chances as a 40 year old than want to risk it with a vaccine that has been created, tested, trialled and rolled out within 6 months  wish me well


If you are scared of vaccinating, I can help.








						Corona vaccination in 2021 be like - Funny
					

14 points • 5 comments




					9gag.com


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## pcmasterrace (Dec 30, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> We should place soap+water dispenser stands, disinfectants work in 2 minutes general while soap and water is effective at 20 seconds.
> You can touch objects, but you have to wash your hands with soap before touching your face.
> Masks cannot be touched without altering their mesh structure. They have to be disposed at every 5 hours, or after 8 hours at a total of 5 intermittent uses.
> 
> ...


I'm not scared, just a gambler and have wayed up my chances, but I will happily donate my vaccine to someone less fortunate but more gullible


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## yotano211 (Dec 30, 2020)

R-T-B said:


> Shaming is not my goal, only establishing qualifications.
> 
> To be clear, I'm as unqualified as Joes hotdog shack on this matter, and there is no shame in recognizing that.  That's why I pinged elsewhere.
> 
> ...


Autism is a hell of a drug.
I'm partial Autistic aswell, my son has aspergers. But learning his condition has taught me alot about myself and explained lot of things when growing up.


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## 95Viper (Dec 30, 2020)

Let's keep the discussion on topic, please.

Thank You 
And, have a safe day.


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## HTC (Dec 30, 2020)

A good analogy is making photocopies only, instead of copying from THE SAME original document, you make a copy which then becomes "the original" for the next copy ... and so on and so forth. Continue to do this for long enough and you'll end up with something that has *noticeable differences VS the "1st original"*.

This is roughly what a mutation is.


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## lexluthermiester (Dec 30, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> you cannot regenerate them once disease has remissed.


That's not entirely true. Individual cells and cells groups will regenerated and be repaired. However, the lungs as a whole organ will not be regenerated if removed or entirely destroyed.

It'll be interesting to see what effects COVID19 will have on the cell repair process.


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## the54thvoid (Dec 30, 2020)

@micropage7  - Your thread has been hijacked by an altogether different debate. At this point, I don't see it bearing any fruit other than poisoned apples. I'm closing it but if you wish it to be reopened, please PM me. As to everybody else - the point of a thread is to discuss the original post. This is no longer happening, in fact the OP is more of an informative pic on what the virus looks like attached to the cilia of a cell found within the lungs.

Thanks.


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