# Microsoft to make Windows 10 updates mandatory



## qubit (Jul 16, 2015)

Microsoft makes updates mandatory in W10 for everyone except for enterprise users. This is good in that it keeps one's Windows fully updated at all times, but I think there are a few downsides to _forcing_ users to have the latest updates.

- How will they handle updates and reboots to minimise disruption to workflow? For gamers, imagine some fat updates installing in the middle of an intense online game. It would completely wreck it with tanking framerates, lagging and potential errors, as well as bombing out of the game. Presumably Microsoft have thought of this and will avoid such scenarios.

- Bandwidth limits. Many people don't have high bandwidth internet access and on top of that they may not have an unlimited usage quota. Being forced to download the updates would cause problems, especially with using up allocated bandwidth and either being shut off, throttled or having to pay more for it.

- It gives Microsoft an easy way to force updates which are only in their own interests and not in those of the user's. The one I can think of is the product activation anti-tampering update 971033 which many people avoided since it was very intrusive, checking up on an installation every month. A later version stopped this behaviour after a public outcry. However, such outcries might be ineffective if one has to accept every update. This last point is the biggest reason in my book to be against such forced updates.

What do you all think? Check out the article and let me know.

www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/16/windows_10_will_update_whether_you_like_it_or_not_unless_you_have_enterprise_edition


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## dorsetknob (Jul 16, 2015)

What no Credit  >>>>re post   #176
Smirk


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 16, 2015)

qubit said:


> How will they handle updates and reboots to minimise disruption to workflow?


Same as they do now: forced restart 24 hours after install if you didn't do it before then.  Pretty sure the updates run low priority so everything else takes precedent.



qubit said:


> Bandwidth limits.


Updates are usually only a few megabytes in size.  They download in the background just like installs.  The only way you could tell it was downloading was via 56K.  I wouldn't be surprised if automatic updates are disabled when connecting via dialup modem.



qubit said:


> It gives Microsoft an easy way to force updates which are only in their own interests and not in those of the user's.


Microsoft has the same do-no-harm policy as other technology companies.  If they deliberately do something to piss users off, their popularity as a software manufacturer will plummet so they don't or fix it if enough complain, as noted.



qubit said:


> Check out the article and let me know.


The Register


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## qubit (Jul 16, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> What no Credit  >>>>re post   #176
> Smirk


Sorry man, I hadn't seen it. The Reg is on my go-to bookmarks for my most frequently visited sites so saw it that way. Post duly thanked! 

@FordGT90Concept I agree with nearly everything you've written except for The Register being a poor news source, as it's actually quite respected. Now if it had been Fudzilla...

As far as forcing those self-interest updates, I wouldn't be so sure. While people have the ability to block a dodgy update, the power remains with the user. This transfers that power to a corporation who's sole interest is in making more and more money from its customers. I reckon they'll try it on, doing a cost-benefit analysis between achieving their aims with the dodgy patch and any potential backlash. This sort of analysis is something that companies, governments, politicians etc do all the time, so I don't see why it wouldn't apply here.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (Jul 16, 2015)

Since when did they change that to include Pro? That's what most of us here will end up with. Home users are probably better off.


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## Octopuss (Jul 16, 2015)

I am only worried about stuff that is not actually updates but crapware features noone asked for. Like that Silverlight shit I haven't ever figured out what it does. Or drivers. Hell if everything from WU is treated like updates and forced, I will simply not install the system. Ever.


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## MrGenius (Jul 16, 2015)

I don't like the idea. Because I've always opted out of automatic updates. Preferring to do them manually. For all of the reasons previously mentioned(and any I can't think of at the moment).

But since it's been this way with the W10 Insider/Tech Preview from the beginning, I've actually gotten somewhat used to it. And I don't really have too many gripes about it. As it hasn't caused me any major difficulties yet. In fact the only issue I've had has been resolved, apparently, with the last few builds. Which was it repeatedly wanting to install the AMD WHQL 15.20 Catalyst drivers on a daily basis. Because I kept installing the 15.3 beta drivers immediately afterwards. The 15.3 beta drivers I've found to work best with my system. And now they don't require being constantly overwritten. So somebody's feedback about that must have worked.

In summation, I voted no. I don't think they're a good idea. I just hope they don't cause me too much trouble in the future. Because I'll still be taking Windows 10, in all its price free glory, whether I like it or not. And I actually like it very much at this stage. So for now, it seems to be a good thing.

On a relevant note, one can choose to in place upgrade from Pro to Enterprise if one wishes. Which sounds like it solves whatever issues might arise in that department.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_editions

I've already done so with my pro version of the preview. Just this morning. Because I found out I could(or rather how I could). This was prior to finding out about this mandatory update clause. But now I think I might be even more glad I did that. We'll see.


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## qubit (Jul 16, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> Like that Silverlight shit I haven't ever figured out what it does.


It was a direct competitor to Adobe's Flash. Now both are being killed off in favour of HTML5, which is a very good thing.


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## Octopuss (Jul 16, 2015)

Is there anyone who actually ever used that?
Flash will be with us for quite a few more years I guess (way longer than it should).


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## Easo (Jul 16, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> Is there anyone who actually ever used that?
> Flash will be with us for quite a few more years I guess (way longer than it should).



Netflix did.
Also, Microsoft's own SCCM Application web portal uses it. If you have SCCM in your workplace, there is a chance you used it.
Also I have seen it few times on net.


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## Constantine Yevseyev (Jul 16, 2015)

Brace yourself, tech support people. Lots of OEM-customized machines (AIOs, laptops, tablets)... Now plagued by endless BSODs, boot-looping, denial of service in all forms and flavors, - all because of incompatible, retail-oriented drivers, now being forcibly installed on PCs during maintenance window. The OS won't even prompt the user about the fact that said drivers ARE being installed at a given moment (what stops you from turning off your device then?), this is just plain scary.

I've seen what a single general-purpose Intel HD graphics driver can do on an Enduro-enabled computer, it's a havoc, I'm telling you. Brightness control is gone, accessing S3 state makes machine stop responding to any input. And it's on Windows Update, it's WHQL-ed, so in no way can you opt-out from that thing. Just roll back the driver and pray that you won't be "offered" a new version when it gets updated again.

Words cannot express my disapproval.



Octopuss said:


> Is there anyone who actually ever used that?


Silverlight is a huge platform (and used to be very active back in the day), handles a lot more than just playing videos on the web. Very flexible, runs in lots of environments as well, yet the programming model is universal and doesn't require you to target specific features. For some reason people think that it's an alternative to Flash of some kind, but in reality it's more of an enterprise-grade toolkit for building internet applications and other cool things. Deprecated now, as JavaScript has taken over everything (sigh)...


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## Static~Charge (Jul 16, 2015)

I prefer to review the updates before installing anything. Just because Microsoft says I _should_ have it doesn't necessarily mean that I _want_ it. And every once-in-a-long-while, Microsoft will publish an update that hoses some PCs. I want to have final say before installing updates (it _is_ my computer, after all...).


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 16, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> I am only worried about stuff that is not actually updates but crapware features noone asked for. Like that Silverlight shit I haven't ever figured out what it does. Or drivers. Hell if everything from WU is treated like updates and forced, I will simply not install the system. Ever.


Automatic updates only apply to critical/security updates.  Optional stuff like drivers and Silverlight will remain optional (won't install unless user tells it to).

Silverlight is like Flash but .NET Framework and WPF based (Model-View-ViewModel).  Silverlight is a lot better than Flash but Microsoft is killing it off in favor of HTML5.  Edge browser won't support Silverlight.  Silverlight never got much traction because Flash was dominant and it appeared not long before HTML5 was starting to get support.


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## Constantine Yevseyev (Jul 16, 2015)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Optional stuff like drivers


If only. Most drivers (like the ones for GPUs) were always considered to be "Important Updates" (with rare exceptions) and will be pushed onto any Windows machine, whether it's running Windows 8.1 or Windows 10. Starting with Windows 10 though, you can never, ever block them in any way before they get to install, and only after that point you have an option to roll them back. _That's how bad we have it_, and that is why people should be concerned.

Again, if this was just about normal (actual) Windows Updates being automatically installed, this would've been a problem only with but a few paranoids.


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## MrGenius (Jul 16, 2015)

Well, at the moment at least, you can choose to _defer upgrades. _Under _Settings_ > _Windows Updates_ > _Advanced options_ you need to check the box labeled "_Defer upgrades_". What does that do? Good question. The answer I've found might illuminate it to a degree.



> *Defer upgrades in Windows 10*
> Applies to Windows 10
> 
> Some Windows 10 editions let you defer upgrades to your PC. When you defer upgrades, new Windows features won’t be downloaded or installed for several months. Deferring upgrades doesn’t affect security updates. Note that deferring upgrades will prevent you from getting the latest Windows features as soon as they’re available.


http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/defer-upgrades-in-windows-10

I hear this only applies to Pro and Enterprise editions. But I can't verify that.


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## Frick (Jul 16, 2015)

It really depends on what a "feature update" is IMO, and if it really does include drivers and monitor profiles (I downloaded a monitor profile once and it messed up the colours something fiercly). I understand why they're doing it, but I'm not sure I support it. If that is the way it will be for sure.


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## Solaris17 (Jul 16, 2015)

qubit said:


> - How will they handle updates and reboots to minimise disruption to workflow? For gamers, imagine some fat updates installing in the middle of an intense online game. It would completely wreck it with tanking framerates, lagging and potential errors, as well as bombing out of the game. Presumably Microsoft have thought of this and will avoid such scenarios.
> 
> - Bandwidth limits. Many people don't have high bandwidth internet access and on top of that they may not have an unlimited usage quota. Being forced to download the updates would cause problems, especially with using up allocated bandwidth and either being shut off, throttled or having to pay more for it.



like this


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## Constantine Yevseyev (Jul 16, 2015)

MrGenius said:


> What does that do? Good question.


They probably upgrade the built-in set of UWP APIs and/or add new ones when they become available (like, when you're being offered an update from build 10166 to 10240, that's basically how it goes, you get a newer version of some input-related type that's present on your machine in version 10166). That would be the only thing that makes sense, honestly. By deferring those, you get a time window for planning the migration, maybe updating your LOB applications/etc in respect with said type changes, and only then moving to another build, I guess?..


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## RejZoR (Jul 16, 2015)

I don't want shit like Windows 10 notificaton crap being forced on me. That crap is nagging for several months now. Great, you already told me Win10 is coming out soon, 3 times this month. Stop bugging me.


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## Frick (Jul 17, 2015)

I just thought of something: what if you're on a cellular network, or using your phone as a mobile hotspot? For many people that is their only connection and in parts of the world the data is very limited.


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## qubit (Jul 17, 2015)

Frick said:


> I just thought of something: what if you're on a cellular network, or using your phone as a mobile hotspot? For many people that is their only connection and in parts of the world the data is very limited.


That's a good point and ties up with my bandwidth limits point in my OP.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 17, 2015)

The picture Solaris17 posted says Windows will not download updates on a "metered connection."  That certainly includes 3G/4G.


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## R-T-B (Jul 17, 2015)

You can still set this to disable updates via gpedit.msc, at least in RTM.  

That said, this is still an awful idea.  Not just in concept, but especially with how it's being handled.


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## Caring1 (Jul 17, 2015)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Since when did they change that to include Pro? That's what most of us here will end up with. Home users are probably better off.


Pro has always been included, only enterprise is excluded.


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## RejZoR (Jul 17, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> You can still set this to disable updates via gpedit.msc, at least in RTM.
> 
> That said, this is still an awful idea.  Not just in concept, but especially with how it's being handled.



I prefer "Notify but let me download and install". I always update as soon as possible, but on my own terms. Happened so many times before that I let Windows Update on "Automatic" and it rebooted my system in the middle of 30GB game download. came home from work, expecting game to be downloaded and the system was in fuckin sleep, because it force rebooted and went to sleep afterwards. Moronic to the max.


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## dorsetknob (Jul 17, 2015)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Microsoft has the same do-no-harm policy as other technology companies. If they deliberately do something to piss users off, their popularity as a software manufacturer will plummet so they don't or fix it if enough complain, as noted.



Ha Ha Ha
"Just like Google then" and their "Do no Evil Blurb"
  Except they do not care about the end user
they think they are Big Enough to ride out the bad publicity storm
Goverment will be Behind this as it makes it easer to 5eye everyone

Lets Wait and see what the Reaction will be coming from the International Market

IS OR WILL

China Russia the E U  and the other significant markets for Microsoft prepared to accept this

if you thought the anti trust actions regarding IE windows media player ect were bad for Microsoft  then buy your pop corn and root beer now because the Shit storm will be Hurricane in size.

Yes this will be seen in places like France and Germany China Russia  as further under the Table Espionage By America

NSA / FBI 5eyes Back doors All authorized and Pushed on to the world by the American Government WITH THE COHERSION of Microsoft.

NSA chickens coming home to roost (cook pot) thats what comes to mind

Windows 10  with free KY jelly (Because we are going to screw you)


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## P4-630 (Jul 17, 2015)

Microsoft confirms plans to sell Windows 10 on USB drives, opens preorders on Amazon

http://venturebeat.com/2015/07/16/m...-10-on-usb-drives-opens-pre-orders-on-amazon/


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## Ahhzz (Jul 17, 2015)

:Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. *By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.:
*
Just not liking that at all.


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## dorsetknob (Jul 17, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources


That Could or will be  the Us Government the FBI the NSA the CIA  none of whom will tell you they are doing that
If Questioned they will throw the Pateriot Act at you and then put you on a flight to Butlins in Cuba

"" Its A Security update and your a security risk because you asked  enjoy your camp gitmo holiday""


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 17, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> :Updates. The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. *By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.:
> *
> Just not liking that at all.


 
Confirming my original plan to wait for 364 days before deciding to accept the free upgrade or not.  I want to see how all of the unknowns and special circumstances I have heard so much about actually pan out.  Won't be any real DX12 games in that year anyway.


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## R-T-B (Jul 17, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> That Could or will be  the Us Government the FBI the NSA the CIA  none of whom will tell you they are doing that
> If Questioned they will throw the Pateriot Act at you and then put you on a flight to Butlins in Cuba
> 
> "" Its A Security update and your a security risk because you asked  enjoy your camp gitmo holiday""



Am I the only one finding that just a tad bit paranoid, as well as a fair bit off topic?


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 17, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Am I the only one finding that just a tad bit paranoid, as well as a fair bit off topic?


 
He was just being facetious and humorous.  Remember all the news about the NSA building back door's into computers and hard drives, that's why it's humorous.  It's also not unlikely that they would come in through updates.  Not that far-fetched at all.


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## R-T-B (Jul 17, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> He was just being facetious and humorous.  Remember all the news about the NSA building back door's into computers and hard drives, that's why it's humorous.  It's also not unlikely that they would come in through updates.  Not that far-fetched at all.



I don't know if I even buy the paranoia about HDs firmware.  It came from a Russian group and the supposed coming "detection tool" is still MIA.

I do find it humorous that people find the government incompetent in almost all things, but somehow figure they have top notch spies and are great at that.

Maybe I'm overly skeptical.  Maybe not.  I do think the reaction to what the NSA has supposedly done far exceeds anything they are actually able to do, legally, logistcally, and maybe even competently.


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 17, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> I don't know if I even buy the paranoia about HDs firmware.  It came from a Russian group and the supposed coming "detection tool" is still MIA.
> 
> I do find it humorous that people find the government incompetent in almost all things, but somehow figure they have top notch spies and are great at that.
> 
> Maybe I'm overly skeptical.  Maybe not.  I do think the reaction to what the NSA has supposedly done far exceeds anything they are actually able to do, legally, logistcally, and maybe even competently.


 
Well, the Russian "group" was the highly-respected Kaspersky.

Let me just tell you because it's something I know...most paranoia about the U.S. Government spies and law enforcement capabilities is UNDERrated and reported.  So yeah, it pays to be careful what you say and write and text, etc.  And that's not paranoia.


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## R-T-B (Jul 17, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> Well, the Russian "group" was the highly-respected Kaspersky.
> 
> Let me just tell you from the aspect of someone who does know...most paranoia about the U.S. Government spies and law enforcement capabilities is UNDERrated and reported.  So yeah, it pays to be careful what you say and write and text, etc.  And that's not paranoia.



I'm the kind of guy who believes if that were true, I'd be in jail long ago...

But we can agree to disagree on the scope.  Bottom line is it's bad, whether fictitious or real.

PS:  Counter-conspiracy:  Kaspersky may be respected, but would you put it beyond Russia to use them as a mouthpiece?


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## dorsetknob (Jul 17, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> He was just being facetious and humorous. Remember all the news about the NSA building back door's into computers and hard drives, that's why it's humorous. It's also not unlikely that they would come in through updates. Not that far-fetched at all.





rtwjunkie said:


> Let me just tell you because it's something I know...most paranoia about the U.S. Government spies and law enforcement capabilities is UNDERrated and reported. So yeah, it pays to be careful what you say and write and text, etc. And that's not paranoia



where was that Press Release by Obunnyman saying CATEGORICALLY WE DO NOT SPY ON OUR ALLIES  ONLY FOR DAYS /WEEKS LATER  it slips out that frau Hiller the EU reichstag leader was phone tapped by the USA as was the froggy commie pres

Good Old (well look at all the grey hair ) Pres bunnyman was on his knees grovling to explain NOT APOLIGISE for his STAZI actions

Wuck me they EVEN BUGGED CONCORD FOR industral esponage
*
PARANOID* no because i know they are watching and listing to us ALL

they tell us they are watching us they tell us they are listing to us they read our snail mail ( Homeland Security Sir  or you got something to hide sir).
If all this has escaped your notice.......may i suggest you get your head out of that Ostrich's ASS. ( may be illegal in some States and jurisdictions please check with  your local law enforcement officer )


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## Mussels (Jul 17, 2015)

As someone who fought with these in the insider edition and was quite shocked to find its sticking around, my feedback:

I have 6Mb DSL.

Windows updates are not "a few megabytes" in windows 10, as it often includes video card drivers, and in the case of the insider edition - rather large patches. Look at windows 7/8 to see that a fresh install can be a few gigabytes now.
The new update system includes peer-to-peer, INCLUDING uploading to other users by default. This makes it the network equivalent of torrents.

Windows updating on one machine in my house spammed my network so hard i had pings of ~600 to my ISP, and we could not use it for basic tasks until the updates had finished. They hammered the connection so hard it caused the updates themselves to download far slower than they should have (disabling the P2P options helped a little, but did not resolve it completely. It took almost 3 hours to download. (while RTM will not have updates this large anytime soon, it WILL over months and years of it being available)

You can completely disable updates, or block them via setting your connection as metered - but you cannot choose WHICH updates to install.

The major problem i see is drivers - i've got some wifi adaptors here that do not behave well on microsoft drivers, and require third party. Windows update forcibly installs what it sees as newer drivers without giving you a choice, including for video card drivers now. I guess 'roll back your drivers' and 'try an older driver' will no longer be recommended on the forums any longer.


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## rtwjunkie (Jul 17, 2015)

Yeah, the whole driver thing has me concerned, since newer doesn't always mean better (NVIDIA, anyone), and like you, I've got some other parts which work better on the most up to date versions from the motherboard manufacturer.

Also, I've got 2 updates from over a year ago that still cause lockups if I install them with 8.1, so I don't.  Imagine that kind of trouble without a choice in the matter!


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## RejZoR (Jul 17, 2015)

I'm currently on Windows 10 and the Windows Update is fucking retarded. I'm a power user and I have ABSOLUTELY NO control over it's behavior. Can't even select notify but let me decide when to install like in Windows 8.1. Nope. Treat me like a fucking noob.  WTF Microsoft!?


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## Jborg (Jul 17, 2015)




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## MrGenius (Jul 17, 2015)

Just in case anybody gets any bright ideas. There's no difference between the Pro and Enterprise editions in regards to this topic. With the W10 Insider/Tech Preview anyways. So far as I can tell that is. I'm new to Enterprise though. So maybe I just don't know how to work it yet. I'm doubtful that's the case however. Making ALL Insiders test ALL the updates, as soon as they're made available, makes sense. If you think about it. That's part of the job. Paid in full by getting to use the OS for free.


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## AsRock (Jul 17, 2015)

Jborg said:


>



HAHAHA.


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## Toothless (Jul 17, 2015)

Well maybe I don't wanna restart my computer when I'm watching good porn like baking GPUs, or playing Rock Simulator.


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## fullinfusion (Jul 17, 2015)

Hmm, well this sucks imo. What about beta gpu drivers?

Is W10 going to say fuck you Brad, and re-install the gpu driver windows wants me to run?

If so then they can go F them self and I'll stick to W7 till death


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## Aquinus (Jul 17, 2015)

I have no problem with it if I can tell it when to update. If I'm sleeping, I really don't care if it install updates. Generally, updates (in particular, security patches,) tend to be a good thing. Any concerns I would have such as metered internet, schedule, type of updates, seem to be addressed. Most of the time at night I click "Shutdown and install updates" anyways, so I'm not sure how this would really change how I already do things. Being paranoid all the time will only ruin a perfectly good day. Also honestly, working in education, I know a lot of people who would be 10x better off having compulsive updates. I guess I just see where the good could come out of this. My only qualm is that it isn't a "default opt-in with an option to opt out or ability to adjust the maximum number of days to go without updating (while still having an upper bound.)

In reality, I think being able to control the schedule and being able to keep it flexible is important.


fullinfusion said:


> Hmm, well this sucks imo. What about beta gpu drivers?
> 
> Is W10 going to say fuck you Brad, and re-install the gpu driver windows wants me to run?
> 
> If so then they can go F them self and I'll stick to W7 till death


Critical updates and security patches. That's not drivers so you can calm down.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 17, 2015)

I only have  good things to say about Windows,

 just in case


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## dorsetknob (Jul 17, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> I only have good things to say about Windows,


Windows yn y Gymraeg yn tyllau yn y wal


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 17, 2015)

Sorry if this is slightly off topic



Windows in Welsh ................ffenestri
Windows in French................fenêtres
Windows in Latin....................fenestram
Windows in Italian.................finestre
Windows in German...............Fenster
Windows in Swedish.............fönster


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## Ahhzz (Jul 17, 2015)

"Customers who are embracing Current Branch for Business do need to consume that feature update within the allotted time period of approximately eight months *or they will not be able to see and consume the next security update*," ...

Emphasis mine. I'm good with that.


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## ChevyOwner (Jul 17, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> "Customers who are embracing Current Branch for Business do need to consume that feature update within the allotted time period of approximately eight months *or they will not be able to see and consume the next security update*," ...
> 
> Emphasis mine. I'm good with that.



What about end users, and not businesses?


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## dorsetknob (Jul 17, 2015)

End user does not count  your the Sheep to be shorn
The only time You Will Count is when you sign up for the CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT ( its coming)


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## Liquid Cool (Jul 17, 2015)

These forced updates and the 30 day return policy have me waiting to be sure everything is ironed out before I jump on board.  Think I'll adopt the '364 day' policy rtwjunkie mentioned.   

Perhaps in the meantime an alternative will pop up.... 







Best,

Liquid Cool


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## mroofie (Jul 17, 2015)

Jborg said:


>


last one very cheesy lol


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## eidairaman1 (Jul 18, 2015)

stickin to 7, one Update bunged up IE11 I had to drop to 8 and remove the updates just to fix a problem then put in 10, no issues now lol


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## Ahhzz (Jul 18, 2015)

ChevyOwner said:


> What about end users, and not businesses?





dorsetknob said:


> End user does not count  your the Sheep to be shorn
> The only time You Will Count is when you sign up for the CLASS ACTION LAW SUIT ( its coming)



Yup, you're the guinea pigs. The notes in a release from them in January this year noted that some business class clients may wish to wait a few months past the "consumer" release in order to ensure that the patches are trouble free. If you're an end-user, you might as well start your stretching exercises now. Reach for those toes.


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## broken pixel (Jul 18, 2015)

MSToolKit works with 10.


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## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> MSToolKit works with 10.



KMS Piracy tool by the looks of it.  I'd not advise discussing such things here.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Jul 18, 2015)

I can already see emense arsing about with beta driver issues.
Nope I don't like it .advisal only though I install most tbh no all the latest.


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## expunged (Jul 18, 2015)

I voted no. I will just find the service that runs it and disable it until I am ready to run them.


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## MrGenius (Jul 18, 2015)

Good luck with that. Let us know how that works out for you.


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## broken pixel (Jul 18, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> KMS Piracy tool by the looks of it.  I'd not advise discussing such things here.


I did not post a link, big difference.

Creating an OS image via Windows style is s till broken, y
ay!


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## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> I did not post a link, big difference.
> 
> Creating an OS image via Windows style is s till broken, y
> ay!



Fair enough.


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## qubit (Jul 18, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> MSToolKit works with 10.





R-T-B said:


> KMS Piracy tool by the looks of it.  I'd not advise discussing such things here.





broken pixel said:


> I did not post a link, big difference.
> 
> Creating an OS image via Windows style is s till broken, y
> ay!


Unfortunately just mentioning such products tends to get posts deleted, as they're very strict about that sort of thing here. 

Anyway, I would never trust a product like that as it's almost certain to contain a keylogger and other malware. That's a great reason for going legit right there, let alone upsetting Microsoft. Notice how the instructions on the website tell you to suppress every Windows security feature and anti-malware product to get it installed. I wouldn't trust anything like that. Just steer clear.


----------



## SonicZap (Jul 18, 2015)

I have two problems with this automatic installation of updates:

1) I don't always want the latest GPU drivers. I prefer running on a driver that has been verified stable by myself, and I only upgrade when it's needed for significant performance fixes / new features. I don't want Windows to automatically update my graphics drivers so I can encounter all of AMD's and Nvidia's new TDRs, broken features and BSODs.

2) I want to control *when* the updates are installed. There is _nothing_ less annoying than playing a full-screen competitive game (be it CS:GO, League of Legends, etc.) and then dying because of Windows suddenly throwing me to desktop to ask if I want to restart because Windows installed some updates. Seriously, happened multiple times in the past and since then I've always used the "Notify me but don't install automatically" option.


----------



## RejZoR (Jul 18, 2015)

I can see this forced updating to become a major clusterfuck of driver/update issues. I mean, it's not like drivers or updates have EVER caused any problems...

Drivers on Windows Update were always shit, especially the graphic ones and I've had really stupid problems with monitor drivers as well (it fucked up my entire color profile) and the wireless driver also fucked up my laptop twice. And the Silverlight, I don't install that crap for a reason. I don't need it. So why would I want a potential security concern software on my system if I dont' need it!?

I really don't understand what's Microsoft trying to achieve here. Deliver security updates as mandatory thing, absolutely. But leave drivers and other optional crap out of my fucking way.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2015)

A quick workaround:

You can disable driver updates and only driver updates via the following registry key (it's protected, so you'll have to take ownership).

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UpdateHandlers\Driver\LocalOnly

Set that to 1.  No more auto driver updates.  Combine this with a disabled auto update via gpedit.msc -> Administrative Templates -> Windows Components ->Windows Update -> Configure Automatic Updates (set this to disabled) and you get a little more control over what you update, and when.


----------



## RejZoR (Jul 18, 2015)

But then again I want SOME driver updates to be applied. I know I want the ATK driver for my motherboard because I can't be bothered looking for it manually. But I certainly don't want stupid graphic drivers to be forced on my system even though I always use latest drivers. The ones that come through WIndows Update are simply shit, mainly because they always arrive without control panels and that's like getting a car without a steering wheel...


----------



## newconroer (Jul 18, 2015)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Microsoft has the same do-no-harm policy as other technology companies.  If they deliberately do something to piss users off, their popularity as a software manufacturer will plummet so they don't or fix it if enough complain, as noted.



I also practice a do-no-harm policy at work. Yet if I make a mistake, it could affect a lot of people in a negative way.
JUST like when Microsoft puts out updates that break the usage of their Office product software, then they release another update to fix it, which breaks something else. 

I could have avoided that if I'd just not updated at all.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 18, 2015)

I was a victim to forced updates on a road trip and I just wanted to power off my laptop before a trip and I had to keep it running and plug into an inverter to keep the updates going and it took 2 hrs to install!!!

Also what if a disaster is happening and you gotta shut off ASAP! Like a hurricane or flood or something?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 18, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> A quick workaround:
> 
> You can disable driver updates and only driver updates via the following registry key (it's protected, so you'll have to take ownership).
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the thanks everyone, but apparently, this no longer works in the RTM build! 

EDIT:  The driver part.  You can still force it to make checks manual...


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 19, 2015)

So, it still automatically checks for driver updates?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> So, it still automatically checks for driver updates?



No, but every time you scan it will force you to install them.

There is a updated tweak in the tweak thread that fixes this.  Please reference it.  You can then never worry about forced driver updates again!  It also includes a tweak to load unsigned drivers from earlier versions of Windows.  I loaded drivers for hardware acceleration on a Intel 965 Express integrated graphics adapter just a bit ago, which just barely has DirectX 10.0.


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 19, 2015)

Just read thru that. thanks


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> Just read thru that. thanks



Just remember if the machine isn't a fresh install that has never touched Windows Update (no internet for it), weird things happen.  Make sure it's fresh and don't connect the ethernet/wifi until done.


----------



## Easo (Jul 19, 2015)

Reading all those comments here... It realy seems like you are trying to overblow it, just for the sake of it.
Sorry.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Easo said:


> Reading all those comments here... It realy seems like you are trying to overblow it, just for the sake of it.
> Sorry.



I'm sorry, are you referencing me or someone else?

If you think I am posting too much I'm just trying to get the word out across the threads that I figured out a work around.  I'm not trying to brag or anything.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Jul 19, 2015)

What is going on here??

Use enterprise, it lets to chose the updates.

Registry mod - same result.

 For the default user it is the best. The power users will always find their ways.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Ferrum Master said:


> What is going on here??
> 
> Use enterprise, it lets to chose the updates.
> 
> ...



You can't buy enterprise legally in retail channels.

My registry mod isn't the same effect either, it completely removes your ability to use Windows Update drivers ever again.  It does what it says on the tin, but is kludgy.

You also still can never rule out individual updates.


----------



## Ferrum Master (Jul 19, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> My registry mod isn't the same effect either, it completely removes your ability to use Windows Update drivers ever again.  It does what it says on the tin, but is kludgy.
> 
> You also still can never rule out individual updates.



It ain't yours...

http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/62525-Windows-10-Automatic-Updates-Enable-Disable-script


----------



## Easo (Jul 19, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> I'm sorry, are you referencing me or someone else?
> 
> If you think I am posting too much I'm just trying to get the word out across the threads that I figured out a work around.  I'm not trying to brag or anything.



Just those, who are a bit paranoid (imho).


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Ferrum Master said:


> It ain't yours...
> 
> http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/62525-Windows-10-Automatic-Updates-Enable-Disable-script



Oh.  Someone else beat me to the punch...  heh.

EDIT:  Nope, that's not even for RTM and doesn't stop driver updates.  My technique is different and uses group policy as well.



Easo said:


> Just those, who are a bit paranoid (imho).



Oh, I agree people are way too paranoid about this.  I just like control of when they get installed, I don't fear installing them (other than drivers where sometimes newer is not better).


----------



## Octopuss (Jul 19, 2015)

Easo said:


> Reading all those comments here... It realy seems like you are trying to overblow it, just for the sake of it.
> Sorry.


You think having unknown and unwanted drivers being forcefully installed is no big deal? You should have your head checked.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> You think having unknown and unwanted drivers being forcefully installed is no big deal? You should have your head checked.



That is indeed the most annoying thing they could have done in my case...  I mean look at nvidias recent drivers...


----------



## Easo (Jul 19, 2015)

Octopuss said:


> You think having unknown and unwanted drivers being forcefully installed is no big deal? You should have your head checked.



You speak like Microsoft will push untested drivers for everyone.
Common... Do you realy think they have not thought about possible situations?
P.S.
Unknown? Emm, what?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 19, 2015)

Easo said:


> You speak like Microsoft will push untested drivers for everyone.
> Common... Do you realy think they have not thought about possible situations?
> P.S.
> Unknown? Emm, what?



They do.  Well, not unknown, unsure what he meant by that, but they push the latest NVIDIA driver for one, which has tons of known issues.  They also push a display driver that BSODs on my Panasonic Toughbook CF-52's Intel Integrated Graphics.

Most people won't need a work around, I will admit.  But for those that do, I'll do what I can to help.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 20, 2015)

I like them, Im glad the user base gets them. I think loading unsigned drivers and GP edits is a total crock of trash.  You wanna know what I think? Im going to go out on a limb and get pushed off by all the nut jobs that think they are important enough for Microsoft to monitor and say this is good for the tech eco system. my machines have no problem with this method...since idk Vista. I auto download and install all drivers and updates found. You wanna know what does suck? Windows updates that break POS HP laptops and crazy ass netbooks and Sony firmware parsers.

I think the OS that holds the global market share pushing updates and breaking a few systems is good. Maybe OEMs will stop skull fucking you with proprietary drivers and buggy firmware. but I do understand that its more convenient to blame MS. Though hopefully in the future they just did you a huge favor and these kinds of problems wont exist to begin with because OEMs will just make less shitty products.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 20, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> I like them, Im glad the user base gets them. I think loading unsigned drivers and GP edits is a total crock of trash.  You wanna know what I think? Im going to go out on a limb and get pushed off by all the nut jobs that think they are important enough for Microsoft to monitor and say this is good for the tech eco system. my machines have no problem with this method...since idk Vista. I auto download and install all drivers and updates found. You wanna know what does suck? Windows updates that break POS HP laptops and crazy ass netbooks and Sony firmware parsers.
> 
> I think the OS that holds the global market share pushing updates and breaking a few systems is good. Maybe OEMs will stop skull fucking you with proprietary drivers and buggy firmware. but I do understand that its more convenient to blame MS. Though hopefully in the future they just did you a huge favor and these kinds of problems wont exist to begin with because OEMs will just make less shitty products.



The idea isn't bad in concept...  IF driver signatures meant something and IF the drivers were quality.  But Windows update in it's current form recommends (that means forces) SEVERAL less than stellar drivers.  I can list 5 examples just off the top of my head.  Heck, two are already listed above.

And I'm sure I'm not being paranoid to say driver signatures will be used to end an older computers "lifetime of the device" via refusal to resign.  It's already happened on core 2 duo age stuff.

Re driver quality:  Heck, one of the razer drivers even pops up warranty registrations during the upgrade phase, preventing reboot (and thus, the upgrade) until dismissed.


----------



## RejZoR (Jul 21, 2015)

I don't get it why is it so hard to make security updates mandatory but drivers optional? It's not freaking rocket science if you make a whole new freaking OS, surely you can make this stupid tiny adjustment to the updating process.

I know how critical security updates are, but drivers should really be a thing where USER decides. I want SOME drivers, but I don't want ALL drivers. Because some on WU are crap and cause problems. But no, WU will just enforce them on your. Retarded. And some asshole was bitching over me on BetaNews when I refused to hack the OS apart just to adust how WU works. I'm just tired of havin to dig through piles of hacks to adjust something that could and should be available directly in WU settings. Just like it was in Windows 7, 8 and 8.1.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 21, 2015)

well look who they wanna target: http://www.neowin.net/news/microsof...cuses-on-the-adorable-new-generation-of-users


----------



## jboydgolfer (Jul 21, 2015)

P4-630 said:


> Microsoft confirms plans to sell Windows 10 on USB drives, opens preorders on Amazon
> 
> http://venturebeat.com/2015/07/16/m...-10-on-usb-drives-opens-pre-orders-on-amazon/



they have been selling on Newegg for a while now...120$usd.   HERE


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 21, 2015)

remixedcat said:


> well look who they wanna target: http://www.neowin.net/news/microsof...cuses-on-the-adorable-new-generation-of-users



Well it all makes sense now.  They've dumbed things down to the lowest common denominator.

Also, the whole greasy, chocolate covered fingers on screens came to mind with the "every screen should be touched" part, and illustrates perfectly gamers and their non-touch screens are a menace in their new world.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 21, 2015)

ewwww yeah

also:

why do we feel the need to "humanize" and put on this pretentious "earthy" front so much these days it's annoying, fake, and boring


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 21, 2015)

remixedcat said:


> well look who they wanna target:


Waste of time. They are all growing up with G̶N̶U̶/̶Linux already... Microsoft just wants to turn the table (see mobiles).

Well, I think it explains their new childish user interface started with Windows 8... Not for serious work really. I'm just glad they realized this now.

As I love my kids, they will be severely punished if they touch a Windows powered device.



qubit said:


> Microsoft to make Windows 10 updates mandatory


I am against this. Sad for Windows users who will have another right removed, and the sadder part is: They're paying HIGH for this. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 21, 2015)

Android is not GNU/Linux, but that's getting off topic.  It's more like a bastardized java vm userland linux....  The rest of your post is correct though.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 21, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Waste of time. They are all growing up with G̶N̶U̶/̶Linux already... Microsoft just wants to turn the table (see mobiles).
> 
> Well, I think it explains their new childish user interface started with Windows 8... Not for serious work really. I'm just glad they realized this now.
> 
> ...




My daughter learned very young not to touch when she throw some thing across the room and hit what used to be my new Samsung 204b and the screen flashed so many colors for a split second and when i turned around i was sure she was not breathing for a good 20 seconds, in fact i was sure my wife was not breathing too due to all the times i had told her not to touch with those pointy nails.

Now you going have people poking screens to see if they are touch compatible a long with people complaining why their screen gets so dirty as depending on the weather\person create skin oils pretty much after a shower.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 21, 2015)

I forsee a lot of germ spread via touchscreens, to be honest.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 21, 2015)

After the W8 debacle and demise of Ballmer I really thought MS were ready to listen, and had high hopes for 10.  Unfortunately it's not imho the OS it was hyped up to be, really just a revamped version of 8.1 with a few more features.  While there are a couple of nice touches, eg. pin sign in and native streamcasting, I feel the end result is 2 steps forward and 3 steps back.

There's too much data collecting and privacy intrusion for my taste, not to mention an overbearing UAC policy and system restrictions that remind me greatly of Vista. 
On top of this MS introduced a browser hijacker in the way of Bing., every time the PC connects to a new network your browser opens up on an MSN start page with a Bing search engine:








This is RTM btw, not a preview version.  And right after the W10 adware last month disguised as an update....So yeah.... not too happy atm. 


Fwiw WDDM 2.0 hasn't been overly impressive,  VRAM usage is nearly halved in some cases but that's the most noticeable difference so far to me. 
W10 scored slightly better than W7 in both the Futuremark Skydiver and Firestrike graphics test (NOT API test) but was considerably lower than 7 in the Physics test.
Core parking was def disabled, so I don't what's going on there.... if anyone is interested I can post some screenshots....


.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 21, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> On top of this MS introduced a browser hijacker in the way of Bing., every time the PC connects to a new network your browser opens up on an MSN start page with a Bing search engine


They want to force bing on users any way they can... They seem desperate. 

It is the same strategy that keeps Windows alive in the desktop market... It has been working so far.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 21, 2015)

The data collection and privacy intrusion things are my biggest beef.

This is a paid OS, you have no place collecting data on me.  If you made it complete freeware, I'd be more open to such tactics.  Not happy with it, but I'd view it in a view similar to google chrome:  Not for me, but an acceptable way to do business if you admit it.

I have to admit, even though I do like a lot of what they did, this OS has me thinking more about Linux than ever before.  Might donate to the Wine project sometime in the near future to help those guys make a migration route for my old games (that will never get a linux version) possible...


----------



## hat (Jul 22, 2015)

Not liking the new update system either. I don't mind getting SOME automatic updates (Windows security patches and such), but if I get that, I want to be able to choose when to restart my computer. More than a few times I've come to my computer to see that it must have rebooted at some point. I do work for WCG and now the work that I do is gonna take a dive because my computer wants to reboot itself all the time. I don't want it automatically pushing drivers on me either. Not such a big deal until MS pushes a shitty driver without me knowing and now my system is having weird problems for no reason...


----------



## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jul 22, 2015)

Methinks.....we have no choice.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> Methinks.....we have no choice.



There's always a choice.  Just be prepared to deal with the consequences...  my hacks to get around it at the moment have been causing me some trouble getting the latest drivers, for example.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 23, 2015)

The simple question is whether you think MS is capable of making unbiased decisions.  My answer, they couldn't make an unbiased decision if they were asked to either strangle puppies for $10 an hour, or to pet puppies for $8 an hour.  MS has the tendency to strangle first, and fix things later.


If only the security updates are mandated, you've still got everyone running W10 downloading them at once on update Tuesday.  Isn't that going to absolutely break servers?  MS already acquiesced to this point, by having a queue for W10, why acknowledge it there, but then forget about it for the updates system?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> The simple question is whether you think MS is capable of making unbiased decisions.  My answer, they couldn't make an unbiased decision if they were asked to either strangle puppies for $10 an hour, or to pet puppies for $8 an hour.  MS has the tendency to strangle first, and fix things later.
> 
> 
> If only the security updates are mandated, you've still got everyone running W10 downloading them at once on update Tuesday.  Isn't that going to absolutely break servers?  MS already acquiesced to this point, by having a queue for W10, why acknowledge it there, but then forget about it for the updates system?



My guess is they are way more confident in their cloud system (Azure or whatever) than they should be.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 23, 2015)

I'll just leave this here about the new Nvidia update for W10, since it looks like it's happening: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/nvidia-geforce-driver-353-54.214523/

Too bad the world populace doesnt storm the internets like the angry mobs did for Valve's paid mod fiasco.  This would actually go away.  Oh well, I can hope that by day 364 they have come to their senses.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

It hasn't even officially launched yet.  Trust me the rage is coming...


----------



## SonicZap (Jul 23, 2015)

I was very interested in Win 10 and was planning to ugprade right away, seems that now I'm gonna wait a year instead and see if they'll reverse this decision. It'd be fine for most users, but as an advanced user I don't want such babysitting, it's only going to cause issues with automatic driver updates and such.

Hoping that it's going to cause some big internet rage.. and that Microsoft listens this time (unlike when they were developing Windows 8). If I didn't like Visual Studio so much I could already be running Linux because of MS' arrogance.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 23, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> It hasn't even officially launched yet. Trust me the rage is coming...



HiMmm  I smell a Class Action Law suit Blowing in the Wind
East Texas  ? eh stock up on the popcorn


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> HiMmm  I smell a Class Action Law suit Blowing in the Wind
> East Texas  ? eh stock up on the popcorn



Their eula has their ass pretty well covered this time...  Course I am no lawyer.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 23, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Their eula has their ass pretty well covered this time... Course I am no lawyer.


Neither am i 
Their eula  is not necessarily enforceable
if it is restrictive or breaches other legal rights then those legal rights take precedent
Eula are there to scare people from thinking that they have RIGHTS
Legal Action for this may Start from the EU ( they are short of cash and a hefty Fine on Microsoft may suit them )


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 23, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Neither am i
> Their eula  is not necessarily enforceable
> if it is restrictive or breaches other legal rights then those legal rights take precedent
> Eula are there to scare people from thinking that they have RIGHTS
> Legal Action for this may Start from the EU ( they are short of cash and a hefty Fine on Microsoft may suit them )



Yeah, my thoughts exactly!  The EU has been good for a lot of the restrictions on MS over-reaching.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Or yall could simply not download it. Jus sayin.


----------



## AxGaming (Jul 23, 2015)

please someone help me? today I noticed que the search box is not cortana working, I click infinitely to be able to search an application and does not open,  does that May Have Been Caused by the update released by microsoft yesterday? (who promised to fix security flaws Among other things). I'm using the build 10240.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Or yall could simply not download it. Jus sayin.



The second my workarounds stop working is the day I switch to linux.  So yeah, that is always on the table...


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> The second my workarounds stop working is the day I switch to linux.  So yeah, that is always on the table...


Good to hear you wont be part of some butt hurt class action suit just because you cant play DX12 games.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 23, 2015)

Anyone else get the weirdest sense of deja vu?


I remember similar conversations going on back then.  UAC was a bugbear, driver support was an absolute mess (and the initial driver push from windows update often installed the wrong one for the first few months), and windows was trying to sell us on a new more "idiot friendly" interface that angered power users while making it possible for idiots to have most tasks automated?

I even have the vaguest sense of deja vu from Windows 8.  We were told that the interface fundamentally changing was for our own security, as more and more features were locked away in obscure sub-systems.  Internet functionality was assumed, so some features weren't functional without it (Bing.....sigh....).

Heck, I even feel Sony deja vu.  Securom on a freakin' CD to "protect" its users.  The public actually finding out about this little bit of crap, and a rather substantial public back-lash against  a feature that supposedly protected its goods from piracy (while assuming its customers were thieves until proven innocent).  After that Sony was quiet on DRM for a while, until they brought Blu-ray security to the market....




It's funny.  As you get older, you get various new technologies but the same underlying story.  Company x screws up, gets caught, fixes things under public outcry, and then the next big thing forgets about all of the lessons learned.  The MS rule of every other OS is surprisingly accurate, and it isn't coincidence.  8.0 bombed, 8.1 functionally fixed 8.0, and now 10.0 will reintroduce us to MS crap with a fresh coating of paint.  

Sigh.

If Linux game support was decent MS would have to listen to consumers.  As it stands now, Windows is the defacto system for business users and gamers.  That means MS will rather easily be able to get away with this for 10.  It'll be 11 that will be truly reasonable, because by the time it is released Steam's push for Linux will finally be bearing fruit.  That statement is a pipe-dream at best, but I can dream.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 23, 2015)

It seems and feels Windows 10 will be a tremendous success with mandatory, optional or even no updates... The average user does not care about this so much, and they are what!? 90% of their user base!?

Just my opinion based on what I have seen so far. 

Will I upgrade/change to Windows 10?  If you know me, you know the answer.


----------



## erixx (Jul 23, 2015)

Yesterday my rog laptop updated to latest build and Cortana was so much fun just screaming things at it and it went straight into the internet to show stuff.. hahaa


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Anyone else get the weirdest sense of deja vu?
> 
> 
> I remember similar conversations going on back then.  UAC was a bugbear, driver support was an absolute mess (and the initial driver push from windows update often installed the wrong one for the first few months), and windows was trying to sell us on a new more "idiot friendly" interface that angered power users while making it possible for idiots to have most tasks automated?
> ...


The deja vu I have is the fact people hate any kind of change. MS is offering a FREE NON-MANDATORY UPGRADE for its customers.........and people are STILL BITCHING. No one on this forum has a single right to complain about this one. Its free. Its non-mandatory. Get the hell over it.

Its like eating at a restaurant and the waitress asks you if you would like the next meal free for one year and everyone screams "I WANT THE MANAGER! THIS SERVICE IS UNACCEPTIBLE! YOU ARE LUCKY THE SERVICE AT YOUR COMPETITOR SUCKS OR I WOULD LEAVE RIGHT NOW! QQQQQ". (Might as well start a new crappy analogy other than cars.)


----------



## taz420nj (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> The MS rule of every other OS is surprisingly accurate, and it isn't coincidence. 8.0 bombed, 8.1 functionally fixed 8.0, and now 10.0 will reintroduce us to MS crap with a fresh coating of paint.



LOL 8.1 is NOT a 'version', it was for all intents and purposes a service pack.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 23, 2015)

had your little rant 
welcome to the ranting club
That would be fine if it was restricted to the free version WHICH IT IS NOT
What about those people and business that buy the system or new hardware
They pay good money for a operating system that works
not one that built on lemon juice supplied by the NSA



TheMailMan78 said:


> MS is offering a FREE NON-MANDATORY UPGRADE



Nothing is ever Free   Said the Hooker as she Scratched her Crotch


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> had your little rant
> welcome to the ranting club
> That would be fine if it was restricted to the free version WHICH IT IS NOT
> What about those people and business that buy the system or new hardware
> ...


Did they say they would stop selling Window 7? Also I am willing to bet Windows 7, Vista, XP or even the magical Linux could stop the NSA from seeing your porn browsing habits.

If you have a internet connection you are their bitch.

I personally don't think people are pissed about MS giving you something free. I think people are more scared they might get caught pirating things and mandatory patches might stop the gravy train.....or at least put a speed bump in it for like an hour. ALSO with all this kicking and screaming I am willing to bet you will be able to disable it. So all this QQing is just for the sake of QQing.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

Fun fact for those thinking "11" will fix this:

There is no 11, and never will be.  Microsoft has stated several times 10 is the last Windows, and is pretty much a rolling release.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 23, 2015)

dorsetknob said:


> Neither am i
> Their eula  is not necessarily enforceable
> if it is restrictive or breaches other legal rights then those legal rights take precedent
> Eula are there to scare people from thinking that they have RIGHTS
> Legal Action for this may Start from the EU ( they are short of cash and a hefty Fine on Microsoft may suit them )



Why? it isnt a forced upgrade. You cant levy against microsoft. They arent forcing you to update to 10 and they arent pulling support from 7 or 8 to make it force consumers into upgrading. Their EULA states they will do updates and there is no market pressure to move. It is literally a "If you dont like it dont upgrade" scenario. How exactly do people plan to sue? What ground could anyone possibly stand on?


----------



## ShiBDiB (Jul 23, 2015)

I see no issue with a company not wanting to support outdated products when they offer the new version for free to legitimate owners of the said outdated products.

If you don't want to use 10, not sure why it's an improvement over 7/8/8.1 in almost all facets, than don't. Just don't get pissy because microsoft no longer wants to devote time/money to a product it no longer actively sells.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 23, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The deja vu I have is the fact people hate any kind of change. MS is offering a FREE NON-MANDATORY UPGRADE for its customers.........and people are STILL BITCHING. No one on this forum has a single right to complain about this one. Its free. Its non-mandatory. Get the hell over it.
> 
> Its like eating at a restaurant and the waitress asks you if you would like the next meal free for one year and everyone screams "I WANT THE MANAGER! THIS SERVICE IS UNACCEPTIBLE! YOU ARE LUCKY THE SERVICE AT YOUR COMPETITOR SUCKS OR I WOULD LEAVE RIGHT NOW! QQQQQ". (Might as well start a new crappy analogy other than cars.)



Wow, you seem to be hitting a bit of whining yourself.


1) The upgrade is only free if you've already purchased one of their products.  It's like calling AMD and Nvidia driver updates a "free" service that they provide.  If those drivers break your system then it's your fault for accepting their "free" services.
2) I didn't whine about Windows.  What I have a problem with is companies claiming that they are doing you right, while installing "security" features that aren't really about security.  It's the same problem we had with MS wanting an always on camera in every Xbone.  I am fine with occasionally trading some freedoms for service, but I'm not going to enslave myself for eternal life.  
3) There is no such thing as a free meal.  Your analogy is fallacious, and wrong-headed from the start.  MS is offering a "free" upgrade because they can't support 3 operating systems in the wild at once.  Most people run 7, a good chunk of people still run XP, and a sizable chunk of people run 8.1.  The better example would be that MS is slightly decreasing the cost of items on the menu for loyal customers for next year, and slashing three pages out of the four they used to have.  The cook has less to worry about, so they can function faster.  If you liked anything on the three pages they cut, too bad.  In a year, the prices will rise back up to the same cost they were a year ago, but none of the old dishes will ever return.

I'll stick to those three points.  Personally, none of my computers are in line for the Windows 10 treatment.  This thread is about MS making updates mandatory in W10.  I said that this sort of behavour is commonplace for them, and the inclusion of a system that is easily broken and against what consumers desire is their MO.  Taking that, and extrapolating that I'm whining about what you perceive is a "free upgrade," is reading yourself into my response.  I don't care if the upgrade is free.  If W10 is worth a damn I'll be willing to pay a reasonable price for it.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> Why? it isnt a forced upgrade. You cant levy against microsoft. They arent forcing you to update to 10 and they arent pulling support from 7 or 8 to make it force consumers into upgrading. Their EULA states they will do updates and there is no market pressure to move. It is literally a "If you dont like it dont upgrade" scenario. How exactly do people plan to sue? What ground could anyone possibly stand on?



Actually, W8.1 is only supported till 2023, and no DX12. So yeah, it is a forced upgrade.  The problem is not people fearing piracy discovery, or complaining about getting a free OS, or even complaining about having to move to a new OS

It is simply the forced update of drivers, because MS has time and again provided drivers that aren't near the quality of the drivers provided by individual hardware manufacturers.  Finally, the worst offender will be forced update of Nvidia drivers, because we've already seen the last 4 months that Nvidia has lost the ability to provide good, quality drivers without being broken for at least half the user base. That is unacceptable, because currently we have the ability to defer Nvidia driver updates or go back to a known, working version.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 23, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> Actually, W8.1 is only supported till 2023, and no DX12. So yeah, it is a forced upgrade.  The problem is not people fearing piracy discovery, or complaining about getting a free OS, or even comolaining about getting a new OS.



You wanna run that by me again? Other than gaming why EXACTLY do you need DX12? Windows 7 runs to 2020 (5 years from now) and windows 8/8.1 is 2023 is 8 years from now. explain to me how a 5-8 year life cycle is too short and that DX12 is forcing you to upgrade.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Wow, you seem to be hitting a bit of whining yourself.
> 
> 
> 1) The upgrade is only free if you've already purchased one of their products.  It's like calling AMD and Nvidia driver updates a "free" service that they provide.  If those drivers break your system then it's your fault for accepting their "free" services.
> ...


So you are running a pirated version of Windows? Because if not then its free.

Also my restaurant analogy is perfect. You already paid for the meal and are enjoying it. Now they would like to give you a free OPTIONAL meal for a year. Don't want it? Don't eat it. Just because you don't like what the meals ingredients doesn't mean you can sue. Free OS is free OS.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> You wanna run that by me again? Other than gaming why EXACTLY do you need DX12? Windows 7 runs to 2020 (5 years from now) and windows 8/8.1 is 2023 is 8 years from now. explain to me how a 5-8 year life cycle is too short and that DX12 is forcing you to upgrade.



I really hope you aren't actually as clueless as you just made yourself sound.  Not having DX12 is a big deal once developers start making games to use that.  So there is no choice if a user wants that.  But should they also have to be forced to get broken drivers? Security and OS updates are fine, but drivers are not.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> I really hope you aren't actually as clueless as you just made yourself sound.  Not having DX12 is a big deal once developers start making games to use that.  So there is no choice if a user wants that.  But should they also have to be forced to get broken drivers? Security and OS updates are fine, but drivers are not.


So get the enterprise version. Problem solved. Next?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 23, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So get the enterprise version. Problem solved. Next?



You've not read all the W10 threads completely, have you?  It's not available to the average user is what I have picked up.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 23, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> I really hope you aren't actually as clueless as you just made yourself sound.  Not having DX12 is a big deal once developers start making games to use that.  So there is no choice if a user wants that.  But should they also have to be forced to get broken drivers? Security and OS updates are fine, but drivers are not.




So basically your still on games. So M$ should roadmap there entire Os development process around you playing league of legends in DX12 4 years from now. I'm sorry thats just not good enough. You are going to have to come at a corporation with a little more than that. As for drivers please. If you want to build an enthusiast machine you are going to have to get used too (which you should have already) come to the conclusion you are on your own as far as configuration and installation are concerned. Sorry no one will bow to the 5% of market share you "kinda" have.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> You've not read all the W10 threads completely, have you?  It's not available to the average user is what I have picked up.


No I haven't. However my point is people don't need to upgrade yet and by the time they do the bugs will have been worked out for years. ALSO there is ALWAYS A WORK AROUND.

I also think these will just be mandatory security updates. Not the optional things like drivers and crap like Silverlight.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> You wanna run that by me again? Other than gaming why EXACTLY do you need DX12? Windows 7 runs to 2020 (5 years from now) and windows 8/8.1 is 2023 is 8 years from now. explain to me how a 5-8 year life cycle is too short and that DX12 is forcing you to upgrade.



So, let me play devil's advocate here.  Based upon that logic, all you really need is window XP.  There was a competent browser, various e-mail programs, a good word processor, and a glut of hardware which had good drivers.  Seems rather preposterous to say that out loud though.



New features, which become standards, are why we upgrade.  Put simply, the reason that we need to upgrade is that without adoption new features die.  DX 10 is a prime example.  Whenever an OS is supplanted, you don't get new features (9.0c for XP anyone?).  Thus, new features, which make things better for everyone, are why we are forced to upgrade.  While it is possible to twiddle your thumbs, nobody wins when you ride an OS to EOL.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 23, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No I haven't. However my point is people don't need to upgrade yet and by the time they do the bugs will have been worked out for years. ALSO there is ALWAYS A WORK AROUND.
> 
> I also think these will just be mandatory security updates. Not the optional things like drivers and crap like Silverlight.



I agree, there is no reason to upgrade yet.  This is why I am adopting the 364 day wait stance.  It gives me an opportunity to see what state W10 is in at that time.

I actually didn't adopt that stance until the driver updates appeared to be forced.  I hope you're right, and they settle on just security patches and OS updates.

@Solaris17 I am well aware that I am on my own as an enthusiast to configure my OS.  You've obviously not read in completely either, or you would know that forcing non-optimal drivers or broken drivers takes away that configuration that we as enthusiasts accept and love. And if you were read in, you'd know that Nvidia's drivers have been breaking alot more than just gaming.  Your blind defense of MS makes me wonder if your custom title should instead say "Paid MS Supporter."


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> So, let me play devil's advocate here.  Based upon that logic, all you really need is window XP.  There was a competent browser, various e-mail programs, a good word processor, and a glut of hardware which had good drivers.  Seems rather preposterous to say that out loud though.
> 
> 
> 
> New features, which become standards, are why we upgrade.  Put simply, the reason that we need to upgrade is that without adoption new features die.  DX 10 is a prime example.  Whenever an OS is supplanted, you don't get new features (9.0c for XP anyone?).  Thus, new features, which make things better for everyone, are why we are forced to upgrade.  While it is possible to twiddle your thumbs, nobody wins when you ride an OS to EOL.



and yet articles everyware in 2013 were talking about how a huge % of the market was still on XP. We all thought it was preposterous but somehow the world pulled it off. Do you see where im coming from? TPU, anand, [H] we do not pay for microsoft. Joanne in the corridor down from you does. She uses excel on a dell backpack made in 2011 running Windows 7. She is happy with it and her IT staff manage it. She likes jogging, her black lab, her 7 year old son and renewing office so word works. she does not give a flying fuck about crysis5 or DX13.

The eco system is changing. Your right. This change is automatic updates. From manual in the dos days to more robust auto downloads as the generations progressed we are now at the time where our machines stay upto date all by themselves.


Listen I liked carburetors too. Unfortunately time moves forward.



Solaris17 said:


> I like them, Im glad the user base gets them. I think loading unsigned drivers and GP edits is a total crock of trash.  You wanna know what I think? Im going to go out on a limb and get pushed off by all the nut jobs that think they are important enough for Microsoft to monitor and say this is good for the tech eco system. my machines have no problem with this method...since idk Vista. I auto download and install all drivers and updates found. You wanna know what does suck? Windows updates that break POS HP laptops and crazy ass netbooks and Sony firmware parsers.
> 
> I think the OS that holds the global market share pushing updates and breaking a few systems is good. Maybe OEMs will stop skull fucking you with proprietary drivers and buggy firmware. but I do understand that its more convenient to blame MS. Though hopefully in the future they just did you a huge favor and these kinds of problems wont exist to begin with because OEMs will just make less shitty products.





rtwjunkie said:


> I agree, there is no reason to upgrade yet.  This is why I am adopting the 364 day wait stance.  It gives me an opportunity to see what state W10 is in at that time.
> 
> I actually didn't adopt that stance untill the driver updates appeared to be forced.  I hope you're right, and they settle on just secuty patches and OS uodates.
> 
> @Solaris17 I am well aware that I am on my own as an enthusiast to configure my OS.  You've obviously not read in completwly either, or you would know that forcing non-optimal drivers or broken drivers takes away that configuration that we as enthusiasts accept and love. And if you were read in, you'd know that Nvidia's drivers have been breaking alot more than just gaming.  Your blind defense of MS makes ne wonder if your custom title should instead say "Paid MS Supporter."



Sorry chief. I just have different views. I ACTUALLY work with thousands of systems a year this approach makes the eco system as a whole, better. I also hope that random and rare (yes rare remember I deal with ALOT of systems) hardware incompatibilities are completely on the OEM in almost all cases as I originally said above several pages back after i read about the problem. and I am of the mind that this approach will hopefully FIX problems like you are describing. I am so happy you finally got off the gaming kick though. Hopefully that isnt nagging at the back of your mind.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

ShiBDiB said:


> Thread is FUD. Title is misleading as upgrading is not mandatory, support for old versions is just going away.



Nothing is misleading about it.  Updates (including drivers) ARE forced in 10, and ironically, Windows 7/8 are still supported for several years, making your post more misleading than the title.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> and yet articles everyware in 2013 were talking about how a huge % of the market was still on XP. We all thought it was preposterous but somehow the world pulled it off. Do you see where im coming from? TPU, anand, [H] we do not pay for microsoft. Joanne in the corridor down from you does. She uses excel on a dell backpack made in 2011 running Windows 7. She is happy with it and her IT staff manage it. She likes jogging, her black lab, her 7 year old son and renewing office so word works. she does not give a flying fuck about crysis5 or DX13.
> 
> The eco system is changing. Your right. This change is automatic updates. From manual in the dos days to more robust auto downloads as the generations progressed we are now at the time where our machines stay upto date all by themselves.
> 
> ...


Is Joanne down the hall hot?


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 23, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Is Joanne down hall hot?



pencil skirt brunette. Its a taste thing you'd have to see her.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 23, 2015)

A dell backpack?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

It would be one thing if automatic updates were the default Solaris.

Short of literally breaking parts of the process via the registry, you simply can't turn them off.

I'm not Joanne from down the hall.  I'm Ray, that obese guy from the armchair.  I like my games, my big screen TV, and I'll gladly even PAY if it means I can control my updates, because I DO give a flying fuck.

There is no product for me anymore (that microsoft isn't slowly killing...)


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> It would be one thing if automatic updates were the default Solaris.
> 
> Short of literally breaking parts of the process via the registry, you simply can't turn them off.
> 
> ...


To Microsoft you are the guy that went on a gummie bear binge when they canceled Firefly.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

TheMailMan78 said:


> To Microsoft you are the guy that went on a gummie bear binge when they canceled Firefly.



It was gummy worms, thank you.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> and yet articles everyware in 2013 were talking about how a huge % of the market was still on XP. We all thought it was preposterous but somehow the world pulled it off. Do you see where im coming from? TPU, anand, [H] we do not pay for microsoft. Joanne in the corridor down from you does. She uses excel on a dell backpack made in 2011 running Windows 7. She is happy with it and her IT staff manage it. She likes jogging, her black lab, her 7 year old son and renewing office so word works. she does not give a flying fuck about crysis5 or DX13.
> 
> The eco system is changing. Your right. This change is automatic updates. From manual in the dos days to more robust auto downloads as the generations progressed we are now at the time where our machines stay upto date all by themselves.
> 
> ...



The car metaphors are...let's just not go there.

I don't have a problem with the idea of automatic updates, or even having them on by default.  Whenever I setup computers for people who can barely find the on button, I leave automatic updates as automatic installation.  Where I have the problem is MS not allowing us to disable them as power users, and forcing through potentially questionable driver changes.  If MS could insure that it wouldn't break systems, I'd be fine with it.  Six months of W10, without any news stories to that effect, would be sufficient proof.  Personally, I can't trust MS without seeing it happen.  They've done too many questionable things to allow me to trust them without proof.

Additionally, the key logging and security are demonstrably crap.  If MS really wanted to target substantial pirates they'd go after China.  Of course, that'd push one of their largest markets (which is still developing) toward competitors, so they save face by installing these security features under the guise of a "free" upgrade.  Pirates are temporarily placated by the "free upgrade," and by the time MS walks out the next OS they'll have made their money back by having people hooked on their older OS.  Say what you will, but the crack dealer business model has always worked for MS.

You can always _assume_ that the actual release will be less intrusive, and only push security updates as a mandate.  If you believe that, then I've got the naming rights for a solar body I can sell you.  




TheMailMan78 said:


> So you are running a pirated version of Windows? Because if not then its free.
> 
> Also my restaurant analogy is perfect. You already paid for the meal and are enjoying it. Now they would like to give you a free OPTIONAL meal for a year. Don't want it? Don't eat it. Just because you don't like what the meals ingredients doesn't mean you can sue. Free OS is free OS.



I paid for a fillet of beef.  I finished half the meal, and have taken the rest home in a doggy bag.  The leftovers won't be as good as the original, but I won't have any problem eating them.  When I get up to leave from the table, the restaurant says they'll take my leftovers, and give me a new Salisbury steak meal.  I have no clue what meat it is composed of, how much is there, and later learned that an edible tracking chip was baked into the meat.  I could have the leftovers, or another two meals with the Salisbury steak.  Knowing that the tracking chip will allow the restaurant to track which of their competitors you go to for a year, anyone with a scanner to track you inside a  50 meter radius bubble, and not even mentioning the questionable nature of the mystery meat would you accept the "free" meal?  It could be Kobe beef, or it could be cheapo ground pork.  Without being able to tell what you are getting, giving up what you've got is foolish.

MS isn't altruistic, generous, or kind.  What they are is a company motivated by financial gains.  Giving things away, without any potential payback, is therefore unreasonable.  Once this point it agreed to, the question becomes how MS thinks their W10 upgrade will pay for itself.  Do you have that answer?  My version of the answer is MS wants a PR win, with a bit of savings when their old OS support pool shrinks.  There's nothing quite like a "free" deal to make people upgrade.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> The car metaphors are...let's just not go there.
> 
> I don't have a problem with the idea of automatic updates, or even having them on by default.  Whenever I setup computers for people who can barely find the on button, I leave automatic updates as automatic installation.  Where I have the problem is MS not allowing us to disable them as power users, and forcing through potentially questionable driver changes.  If MS could insure that it wouldn't break systems, I'd be fine with it.  Six months of W10, without any news stories to that effect, would be sufficient proof.  Personally, I can't trust MS without seeing it happen.  They've done too many questionable things to allow me to trust them without proof.
> 
> ...


Apple has been doing it for years now. Somehow they seem to make money. Gee I wonder.

Also you don't have to give up anything. Keep the left overs. Love them. Rub them all over your face and neck. Ill be chowing down on some Salisbury steak enjoying my DX12.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 23, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> The car metaphors are...let's just not go there.
> 
> I don't have a problem with the idea of automatic updates, or even having them on by default.  Whenever I setup computers for people who can barely find the on button, I leave automatic updates as automatic installation.  Where I have the problem is MS not allowing us to disable them as power users, and forcing through potentially questionable driver changes.  If MS could insure that it wouldn't break systems, I'd be fine with it.  Six months of W10, without any news stories to that effect, would be sufficient proof.  Personally, I can't trust MS without seeing it happen.  They've done too many questionable things to allow me to trust them without proof.
> 
> ...



Hey now to be clear. I am just playing devils advocate like yourself. Dont draw your image of me quite yet. I was talking about updates. and what I hope happens as a result of them being forced. Of course it could break LOTS of things and that would suck and as a result I hope they would change it. I would LIKE however too see it all work. 

As for the keylogging understand thats NOT what I'm discussing. Thats why I didn't really even bother processing what rtwjunkie was telling me. Ms supporter banner waving idiot is an inaccurate description. The thread is about UPDATES and thats what im discussing. the privacy concerns I could see people having an issue with. For the record I personally do not. but I also will not defend them. I defend the updates because I believe it is a necessary evil that will hopefully fix another problem. If it does not I will be right beside you with my picket sign asking for them to give users control. Its important to have a discussion about a topic before you lay into someone for what they say.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> Hey now to be clear. I am just playing devils advocate like yourself. Dont draw your image of me quite yet. I was talking about updates. and what I hope happens as a result of them being forced. Of course it could break LOTS of things and that would suck and as a result I hope they would change it. I would LIKE however too see it all work.
> 
> As for the keylogging understand thats NOT what I'm discussing. Thats why I didn't really even bother processing what rtwjunkie was telling me. Ms supporter banner waving idiot is an inaccurate description. The thread is about UPDATES and thats what im discussing. the privacy concerns I could see people having an issue with. For the record I personally do not. but I also will not defend them. I defend the updates because I believe it is a necessary evil that will hopefully fix another problem. If it does not I will be right beside you with my picket sign asking for them to give users control. Its important to have a discussion about a topic before you lay into someone for what they say.


100%. This!

Also I would like to add I don't care if MS is rooting around in my system. The second I connect to the internet I automatically assume I have zero privacy and security. At least a keylogger from MS might have regular performance updates.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 23, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> Hey now to be clear. I am just playing devils advocate like yourself. Dont draw your image of me quite yet. I was talking about updates. and what I hope happens as a result of them being forced. Of course it could break LOTS of things and that would suck and as a result I hope they would change it. I would LIKE however too see it all work.
> 
> As for the keylogging understand thats NOT what I'm discussing. Thats why I didn't really even bother processing what rtwjunkie was telling me. Ms supporter banner waving idiot is an inaccurate description. The thread is about UPDATES and thats what im discussing. the privacy concerns I could see people having an issue with. For the record I personally do not. but I also will not defend them. I defend the updates because I believe it is a necessary evil that will hopefully fix another problem. If it does not I will be right beside you with my picket sign asking for them to give users control. Its important to have a discussion about a topic before you lay into someone for what they say.



Fair point.  I seem to have issues untangling the auto updates, from their inherent use as an anti-piracy tool.  Untangling the two is...perhaps that's a discussion on its own.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 23, 2015)

Again, there is no next realease for them to sell you after they have "fixed" things.

Also, there's no question as to what release will have, as rtm has been out all week.


----------



## dorsetknob (Jul 23, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Again, there is no next realease for them to sell you after they have "fixed" things.
> 
> Also, there's no question as to what release will have, as rtm has been out all week.



Not Sell you but there will be a subtle slide towards Software rental/subscription
You can see it coming  windows Subscription Starting at  $60 a year for updates Security fixes and patches

They see Subscription as the Cash cow of the future


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 23, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> You've not read all the W10 threads completely, have you?  It's not available to the average user is what I have picked up.



I must not be an average user? I have been using win10 enterprise edition since the RTM leakage. No forced updates, but It still sucks that a bunch of the MS apps will not let you uninstall them. Why the fuck do I need an xbox app on my PC? lol! Maybe an Atari 2600 or Amiga app.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 23, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> It would be one thing if automatic updates were the default Solaris.
> 
> Short of literally breaking parts of the process via the registry, you simply can't turn them off.
> 
> ...


You know Automatic Updates can be disabled right? Or am I missing something...?


On a side note one highlight of W10 that really fucks me off I really enjoy is the MS TrollsU service.
This is the shitty  safety feature which fubars  prevents Win32 apps  from running after UAC is disabled via regedit. Thanks MS, for being there to hold my hand.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

I know they CAN be disabled (I'm the author of at least one tweak), but it's an intentional PITA I expect to break soon.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> I must not be an average user? I have been using win10 enterprise edition since the RTM leakage. No forced updates, but It still sucks that a bunch of the MS apps will not let you uninstall them. Why the fuck do I need an xbox app on my PC? lol! Maybe an Atari 2600 or Amiga app.



You are pirating it by using a pirate KMS server.  Certainly not an "average" enterprise user.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 24, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> I know they CAN be disabled (I'm the author of at least one tweak), but it's an intentional PITA I expect to break soon.


There is no tweak involved.  All u do is turn off Automatic Updates.

















R-T-B said:


> You are pirating it by using a pirate KMS server.  Certainly not an "average" enterprise user.


Anyone can obtain the Enterprise Build, it's as simple as changing the License Key. I did it the other day. 

Enterprise isn't obtainable through the free upgrade path though, I think that's what your're talking about. You have to pay.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 24, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Enterprise isn't obtainable through the free upgrade path though, I think that's what your're talking about. You have to pay.



And be a business.  It's not available as a standard retail single license.



> There is no tweak involved. All u do is turn off Automatic Updates.



I use a group policy key.  In my limited experience, it turned itself back on at least once via the service method, but perhaps an update did that, dunno.


----------



## Caring1 (Jul 25, 2015)

Solaris17 said:


> Why? it isnt a forced upgrade. You cant levy against microsoft. They arent forcing you to update to 10 and they arent pulling support from 7 or 8 to make it force consumers into upgrading. Their EULA states they will do updates and there is no market pressure to move. It is literally a "If you dont like it dont upgrade" scenario. How exactly do people plan to sue? What ground could anyone possibly stand on?


Tell that to people that buy a computer in a year or two, they won't have an option, and Microsoft will ensure they can't upgrade to W7 because they won't support the hardware.


----------



## hat (Jul 25, 2015)

Anyone else having problems with audio in Windows 10? First my X-Fi card didn't work at all, and then, with my onboad Realtek audio, it works... but sometimes it'll just stop working. No sound anymore.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 25, 2015)

hat said:


> Anyone else having problems with audio in Windows 10?


Microsoft or Creative would just say: "Normal as it does not have the Windows 10 compatibility logo".

They will just make another hardware with "official support" and force you to buy the latest. That is called profiting strategy.

LOL!


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 25, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> Microsoft or Creative would just say: "Normal as it does not have the Windows 10 compatibility logo".
> 
> They will just make another hardware with "official support" and force you to buy the latest. That is called profiting strategy.
> 
> LOL!



Creative has been pretty good about patching 2 generations or more ahead.  Before I got this Soundblaster Z i had an X-fi Extreme Gamer that has current w8.1 drivers, as an example.


----------



## hat (Jul 25, 2015)

Creative apparantly has drivers for my card coming in October.


----------



## Easo (Jul 25, 2015)

You are not even complaining now, you are simply whining. That it what it looks like from my perspective.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 25, 2015)

Turning off the service can hose an install when you try to update some ms products like office.. Had that happen when I did it to office e and ie had to reinstall windows. Had a system service exception bsod even in safe mode.

This was not even running those thru win update ui but rather downloading the exe file and running them.


----------



## RejZoR (Jul 26, 2015)

I still want to update Windows, just on MY terms and not Microsoft terms and schedules. That's why I DON'T want to turn of Windows Update. I just want to have full control over what and when I update anything through Windows Update. I update everything as soon as it's available, but I want to decide about everything.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 26, 2015)

hat said:


> Anyone else having problems with audio in Windows 10? First my X-Fi card didn't work at all, and then, with my onboad Realtek audio, it works... but sometimes it'll just stop working. No sound anymore.


Yep, because the wrong driver is installed. You have the same soundcard I do. The driver you need is *6.0.230.4*
You can obtain it through DK's latest XFI pack.

let me know and I can upload it to Mega if needed.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 26, 2015)

Oh god

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonk...blems/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix


----------



## AsRock (Jul 26, 2015)

remixedcat said:


> Oh god
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonk...blems/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix



I wounder why they don't link proof to what they are saying and claiming that MS are going\doing.  All but one link is to them self's claiming this that and the other.

Now if they linked MS links saying on their own site to back up what they are saying would be much more believable to many more people.


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 26, 2015)

^ Haha! WTF Microsquish? Why are you so hardcore about forcing drivers and software? Forced security updates, yes indeed but software and drivers? Let me inject my Corporatism.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 26, 2015)

Yeah, it's not just techies.  The outcry is enough on various sites, including Nvidia's, that even Forbes (hardly a den of techies) saw that forced Nvidia updates, and possibly other drivers, is not a good thing.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 26, 2015)

AsRock said:


> I wounder why they don't link proof to what they are saying and claiming that MS are going\doing.  All but one link is to them self's claiming this that and the other.
> 
> Now if they linked MS links saying on their own site to back up what they are saying would be much more believable to many more people.


Reads like FUD imho.  

The Terry Myerson blog quoted in the article is over 6 months old..


----------



## hat (Jul 26, 2015)

Easo said:


> You are not even complaining now, you are simply whining. That it what it looks like from my perspective.


What am I supposed to do, sit back and take it?


Pill Monster said:


> Yep, because the wrong driver is installed. You have the same soundcard I do. The driver you need is *6.0.230.4*
> You can obtain it through DK's latest XFI pack.
> 
> let me know and I can upload it to Mega if needed.


What difference would it make? Wouldn't MS just run that over next time WU runs?


----------



## AsRock (Jul 26, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Reads like FUD imho.
> 
> The Terry Myerson blog quoted in the article is over 6 months old..



Until MS speak up ( clearer ) which they probably will not until after the release everyone has idea's how shits going down and seems like Home versions are the ones with enforcements.
http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-10-home-edition-may-force-updates/#!

Same again here
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2949...rce-automatic-updates-for-all-home-users.html

However no one says any thing about Pro version which in time we will either see the updates forced or relaxed.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 26, 2015)

hat said:


> What am I supposed to do, sit back and take it?
> 
> What difference would it make? Wouldn't MS just run that over next time WU runs?


Only if the "Always Install the best driver from Windows Update" is on under Device Installation settings. Just disable it.


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 26, 2015)

The enterprise edition still forces GPU drivers. I used DDU, unintalled WU driver and  then installed the 15.6 beta driver. I reboot and check WU and it installed the 15.7 driver over the 15.6 beta driver.

Want a free update to windows 10? Sign here to void user control of this new operating system. Here at Microsquish we know what is best for you & your hardware.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 26, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Only if the "Always Install the best driver from Windows Update" is on under Device Installation settings. Just disable it.


Screenshot?


----------



## hat (Jul 26, 2015)

Start > All Apps > Windows System > This PC > Properties > Advanced system settings

Good to know, indeed.


----------



## TheMailMan78 (Jul 26, 2015)

hat said:


> Start > All Apps > Windows System > This PC > Properties > Advanced system settings
> 
> Good to know, indeed.


And now this thread should be put to rest and its agitators need to look before they leap.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 26, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Only if the "Always Install the best driver from Windows Update" is on under Device Installation settings. Just disable it.





TheMailMan78 said:


> And now this thread should be put to rest and its agitators need to look before they leap.



That'd be wonderful if that setting worked.  It's a hangeron from Windows 8.1 that does nothing.


----------



## hat (Jul 26, 2015)

Apparently, it worked for Pill Monster??


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 26, 2015)

hat said:


> Apparently, it worked for Pill Monster??



I doubt he's ever had it set to anything else besides automatic..  It doesn't work.  Unless they fixed it in the last week.

See people complaining about this here:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...r/bff07224-4ce2-4b42-ab29-68c3a305d730?auth=1


----------



## hat (Jul 26, 2015)

Well, hopefully they get WU back to an acceptable state soon. What was wrong with it before? It worked fine in 7 and 8.1, even with automatic updates enabled. I'd like to see it go back more like the way it was... not that there isn't any room for improvement. The new WU is better, in some ways. We were always able to get drivers from WU before, but everyone everywhere recommended against it. And we didn't have to install them. Now it's forced, and the automatic updating and restarting seems way more aggressive. That needs scaled back. However, I don't mind the idea of sharing updates with other W10 PCs *on my local network*. Screw sharing it with the entire internet. I don't need WU constantly overloading my connection by acting like a runaway bittorrent client, with the added possibility of being infected with malware that way.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 26, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> That'd be wonderful if that setting worked.  It's a hangeron from Windows 8.1 that does nothing.





R-T-B said:


> I doubt he's ever had it set to anything else besides automatic..  It doesn't work.  Unless they fixed it in the last week.
> 
> See people complaining about this here:
> 
> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...r/bff07224-4ce2-4b42-ab29-68c3a305d730?auth=1



I think I'm about to add you to my ignore list.


----------



## RichF (Jul 26, 2015)

1) move all user data to "the cloud"

2) move all user life info (connections, correspondence, thoughts) to "the cloud" via e-mail, cell phone conversations/environment monitoring, tapped computers/networking, and social networking online stuff like Facebook

3) have control over *everything* except the thoughts in a person's head, although those thoughts can now be profiled and anticipated










No control over anything except for those in power. This loss of control over update patches is just one step forward toward a future where there is no privacy and there is no personal agency. Carlin said we have owners rather than choices. That is becoming truer by the day.

It's also ironic that the same government that claims we should not expect a right to privacy is going after Hillary Clinton for potentially having "classified e-mails" on her private network. I thought everyone is saying e-mail is never private. Right? That is another example of the "do as we say not as we do" mentality where government has all the power (including privacy rights, in e-mail no less!) and citizens have none.

It's also amusing that video games (via DX) are the carrot on the stick. They have become the great pacifier for young people now that religion is outmoded. The provide the illusion of control, power, and agency while the actual agency in real life is being stripped away piece by piece. Eventually the only freedom and control we'll have will be inside computer simulations of life.

P.S. If MS wanted to bundle in spyware or something else unwanted surreptitiously, while still giving people an illusion of control, it could go back to the service pack model. Make an update bundle large and complex enough and it's easy to hide things inside. It's also easier to force-feed parts people don't want because they will need to update to the service pack in order to be compatible with things like games.


----------



## hat (Jul 26, 2015)

Pill Monster, that's exactly the setting he's talking about. He's just saying it doesn't do anything. You disabled WU altogether though, why?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 26, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> I think I'm about to add you to my ignore list.



As mentioned, it may work now.  I haven't tried it in a while as I made a hack shortly after discovering it broken (as evidenced by my provided thread, it was very recently at the least)

I had your screenshot confused with the guy (I think hat?) who had it on automatic, apologies for accusing you of having that setting, I just couldn't come up with another explanation.

It's also a possibility that disabling the update service alters it's behavior, though that makes the least sense of my potential explanations...



> I think I'm about to add you to my ignore list.



Unnecessary, and really, just do it if you're going to don't make it into a humiliation thing.  Also, don't blame me if you miss my awesome deals. 

EDIT:  As an aside, it still does not work for me, I'm getting regular driver updates offered and have the setting in the same position as you as soon as I remove my registry tweak.  Of course, you know how tweaks go, I may have broken something else...

Of course, I never disabled the WU service.  I just used a GP settings to make it not auto check.  Maybe this is different in how it treats it?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 26, 2015)

The thing is, we have Microsoft themselves saying full WU including wonky drivers cannot be turned off or you will lose your security updates after a bit, for being bad boys and girls.  So, there's that.

In the meantime, wait for full release and see if they see the error of their ways.  Maybe get a couple months in first of someone turning off automatic updates and see if MS follows through.  Wait and see, so we can know if they meant what they said and if the behavior changes, if they did mean it.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> The thing is, we have Microsoft themselves saying full WU including wonky drivers cannot be turned off or you will lose your security updates after a bit, for being bad boys and girls.  So, there's that.
> 
> In the meantime, wait for full release and see if they see the error of their ways.  Maybe get a couple months in first of someone turning off automatic updates and see if MS follows through.  Wait and see, so we can know if they meant what they said and if the behavior changes, if they did mean it.



I'm not holding back a version personally.  I already decided I'm just going Linux if they chose hardline on the "lose your updates" bit.  Been meaning to for a while anyhow, most of my games now play in it and the only one I'd be losing is Tropico 4, which technically runs on WINE anyhow, and Elite Dangerous, which is probably going to get a port soon.


----------



## hat (Jul 27, 2015)

Microsoft will listen... eventually. Maybe not now, but something will come of it. WU might get changed in whatever the next iteration of Windows is... 10.1?


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

hat said:


> Microsoft will listen... eventually. Maybe not now, but something will come of it. WU might get changed in whatever the next iteration of Windows is... 10.1?



According to Microsoft, iterations are done.  Windows 10 is 10 and will be augmented forever.  They said "The question of what version of windows you are using will cease to make sense"

This means Windows is now effectively a rolling release.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

forcibly disabling all windows updates is not the solution to the problem.

the problem is not being able to choose what updates install.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

Mussels said:


> forcibly disabling all windows updates is not the solution to the problem.
> 
> the problem is not being able to choose what updates install.



Indeed...  that's the majority of the problem.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 27, 2015)

i still think people are jumping to conclusions and believe this will not be the case once it's actually hit release date.


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 27, 2015)

AsRock said:


> i still think people are jumping to conclusions and believe this will not be the case once it's actually hit release date.



I hope you're right, but so far we have Microsoft saying this, and evidence so far with Nvidia drivers forcibly installing, and causing priblems.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 27, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> I hope you're right, but so far we have Microsoft saying this, and evidence so far with Nvidia drivers forcibly installing, and causing priblems.



As i understand it that's just for the preview, maybe another update for those with RTM after the 29th when the actually release date.  So yeah they saying it as they want everyone get the driver updates as you know what people will do,  use the preview and disable any driver updates which will not help MS to fix problems as people will just use another driver before complaining.

And if i am wrong o well i am sure they will change it if enough people bitch about it.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 27, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> As mentioned, it may work now.  I haven't tried it in a while as I made a hack shortly after discovering it broken (as evidenced by my provided thread, it was very recently at the least)
> 
> I had your screenshot confused with the guy (I think hat?) who had it on automatic, apologies for accusing you of having that setting, I just couldn't come up with another explanation.
> 
> ...


What build are you using? And what version?  I'm on RTM and afaik that forced update policy was for the preview.


Here's what MS says:








https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3073930


There's also another service called Device Installation Setup service or something I can't remember exactly but maybe check it out as well.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> What build are you using? And what version?  I'm on RTM and afaik that forced update policy was for the preview.
> 
> 
> Here's what MS says:
> ...



You may have a service disabled or something that prevents it from working.  I'm using RTM just like you.  It was broken on the day 1 release of rtm with stock settings at the very least.

I don't disable any services, prefer using group policy keys and things that might remain remotely in the realm of microsoft support...  probable that they won't care how you disable it as long as it's disabled, but I try lol.



AsRock said:


> i still think people are jumping to conclusions and believe this will not be the case once it's actually hit release date.



It's already hit RTM, which means it'll be preloaded that way on machines sold with it.  I don't see them reversing course at this point.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 27, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> You may have a service disabled or something that prevents it from working.  I'm using RTM just like you.  It was *broken on the day 1 release of rtm* with stock settings at the very least.
> 
> I don't disable any services, prefer using group policy keys and things that might remain remotely in the realm of microsoft support...  probable that they won't care how you disable it as long as it's disabled, but I try lol.
> 
> ...



Broken or disabled until MS's said date of release, i would not be surprised if they broke it until when people should have it.

Shit the price you pay to be 1st.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

AsRock said:


> Broken or disabled until MS's said date of release, i would not be surprised if they broke it until when people should have it.
> 
> Shit the price you pay to be 1st.



I really doubt that they code timebombed anything, but I suppose it is technically possible...


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> I really doubt that they code timebombed anything, but I suppose it is technically possible...



its POSSIBLE as a method to force people to get the first few updates/break the initial cracks/activators out there... but i don't see it likely. I think this was in fact their long term plan.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 27, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> You may have a service disabled or something that prevents it from working.  I'm using RTM just like you.  It was broken on the day 1 release of rtm with stock settings at the very least.
> 
> I don't disable any services, prefer using group policy keys and things that might remain remotely in the realm of microsoft support...  probable that they won't care how you disable it as long as it's disabled, but I try lol.


 Idk but I'm over the whole thing tbh.  The energy required to configure everything with powershell/regedit/GPedit etc etc isn't worth the results imho.   


I'm happy with W7 so will prob just keep using it.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

That's a fair philosophy.  I just enjoy tinkering anyways. 

But it is slowly becoming more irritating than fun, I may be right behind you.


----------



## Easo (Jul 27, 2015)

RichF said:


> 1) move all user data to "the cloud"
> 
> 2) move all user life info (connections, correspondence, thoughts) to "the cloud" via e-mail, cell phone conversations/environment monitoring, tapped computers/networking, and social networking online stuff like Facebook
> 
> ...



I thought conspiracy theories were not allowed here.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 27, 2015)

Easo said:


> I thought conspiracy theories were not allowed here.



They are allowed, but just as nutty as ever.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

Easo said:


> I thought conspiracy theories were not allowed here.



only when they're about moderators and admins.


this whole thing has convinced me to keep windows 8.1 on my laptop, so at least i can trust it not to reboot on me at random times.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 27, 2015)

This thread on MS Insider with 900 replies pretty much sums up my pov. . 

*There is not a single redeeming thing about Windows 10, is there? *


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> This thread on MS Insider with 900 replies pretty much sums up my pov. .
> 
> *There is not a single redeeming thing about Windows 10, is there? *



some of my games run faster


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 27, 2015)

Mussels said:


> some of my games run faster


Lol yeah fair comment. 

*There is a single redeeming thing about Windows 10.*


 Fixed. **


----------



## ...PACMAN... (Jul 27, 2015)

Fully updated, no issues, runs like a charm. It's not even technically "released' yet, give them time to get a firm hold on what people are requesting and stuff, it will all come good. Same goes for dodgy Nvidia and AMD drivers, it's a period of transition and in this "Want it now" culture people are far too quick to whine and moan. Give feedback and let them fix things (all though mines working great)


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

...PACMAN... said:


> Fully updated, no issues, runs like a charm. It's not even technically "released' yet, give them time to get a firm hold on what people are requesting and stuff, it will all come good. Same goes for dodgy Nvidia and AMD drivers, it's a period of transition and in this "Want it now" culture people are far too quick to whine and moan. Give feedback and let them fix things (all though mines working great)



SLI and crossfire don't work at present in win 10 thanks to wonky drivers, and you cant even force install older ones to make it work. i had to disable crossfire because it freezes all my media players.

people NEED to make a fuss about it, or complex PC's with SLI/Xfire/multi monitor and such will simply become more hassle than they're worth.


----------



## ...PACMAN... (Jul 27, 2015)

Mussels said:


> SLI and crossfire don't work at present in win 10 thanks to wonky drivers, and you cant even force install older ones to make it work. i had to disable crossfire because it freezes all my media players.
> 
> people NEED to make a fuss about it, or complex PC's with SLI/Xfire/multi monitor and such will simply become more hassle than they're worth.



And like I said it hasn't even been formally "released' yet, wonky drivers are going to happen at this time, it will come good. Either delay the update to the os or just use the one card and be happy until they fix it....1 month from now a lot of these complaints and issues will all be rectified and a thing of the past.

EDIT - Already agreed that feedback and making them aware of the issues is also needed.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

...PACMAN... said:


> And like I said it hasn't even been formally "released' yet, wonky drivers are going to happen at this time, it will come good. Either delay the update to the os or just use the one card and be happy until they fix it....1 month from now a lot of these complaints and issues will all be rectified and a thing of the past.
> 
> EDIT - Already agreed that feedback and making them aware of the issues is also needed.



having been on this forum for about 300 years, i can assure you of one thing: Nvidia and AMD will never, ever release a perfect driver. Forced driver updates will simply rotate who's got a broken system.


----------



## ...PACMAN... (Jul 27, 2015)

Mussels said:


> having been on this forum for about 300 years, i can assure you of one thing: Nvidia and AMD will never, ever release a perfect driver. Forced driver updates will simply rotate who's got a broken system.



Oh come on , it's the nature of the beast. PC gaming will always have issues due to the high variance of configs....you know that. I haven't had any Nvidia driver issues, unfortunately, some people have recently but it seems like the newer cards were affected more. Again, transition.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

...PACMAN... said:


> Oh come on , it's the nature of the beast. PC gaming will always have issues due to the high variance of configs....you know that. I haven't had any Nvidia driver issues, unfortunately, some people have recently but it seems like the newer cards were affected more. Again, transition.



its not the transition at all, the most common help solution to any video card drama is always rollback the drivers... and microsoft are trying to prevent that. I've got wifi issues on my laptop where i have to use a third party outdated driver to get it working at 300Mb, as the windows update driver locks it to 72Mb - won't that be fun on windows 10?


----------



## ...PACMAN... (Jul 27, 2015)

A hotfix or update will address issues. Think forwards, not backwards. Nvidia and AMD will soon up their game or identify the issues people are facing and I'm in no doubt that Microsoft will alter the full release after feedback is gathered.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 27, 2015)

So, let's have a bit of fun here, since it seems like heavier portions of the discussion have started to rule it.

Windows 7 is Vista with the fat cut, and properly optimized.  Windows 8.1 is windows 8 with some of the more...interesting...decisions rolled back.  Both 8.1 and 7 are very much respectable OS decisions, depending upon usage.  Vista and 8 are functionally mistakes that have been rightly forgotten (8.1 can be argued to be a service pack, but in my experience it changed about as much as 7 did from Vista).

How long before we see a 10.1 release, that is functionally rolling back some of the more quirky changes?  I know MS plans for 10 to be a rolling OS that could functionally be subscribed to, but who really thinks that plan is going to be followed?  Two questions, I wonder how many answers are possible?



...PACMAN... said:


> A hotfix or update will address issues. Think forwards, not backwards. Nvidia and AMD will soon up their game or identify the issues people are facing and I'm in no doubt that Microsoft will alter the full release after feedback is gathered.


Are you being sarcastic?

If not, that's the best joke I've heard all day.  Between video card drivers being insanely pragmatic for certain configurations, and the dozens of companies which produce interacting hardware (Realtek drivers anyone?), MS can't really expect the manufacturers to update everything.  Not even considering crap like the recent updates which borked tons of USB devices using non-authentic chips, how do you expect everyone to write entirely stable and universal drivers for their stuff?


----------



## ...PACMAN... (Jul 27, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> So, let's have a bit of fun here, since it seems like heavier portions of the discussion have started to rule it.
> 
> Windows 7 is Vista with the fat cut, and properly optimized.  Windows 8.1 is windows 8 with some of the more...interesting...decisions rolled back.  Both 8.1 and 7 are very much respectable OS decisions, depending upon usage.  Vista and 8 are functionally mistakes that have been rightly forgotten (8.1 can be argued to be a service pack, but in my experience it changed about as much as 7 did from Vista).
> 
> ...



I thought you yanks didn't get sarcasm?   But no, I wasn't. It's about time some of these companies upped their game and if Microsoft chooses to keep this form in place, I think it will encourage these companies to get their act together. How many times have we been shafted by companies who release a great product but then fail to update drivers.....a lot. In the end, it will encourage higher quality, fully tested drivers.

If certain brands/companies fail to provide, they will lose business - big time. PC gamers are also getting tired of faulty games being shipped out constantly. Arkham Knight anyone? With new refund procedures and multiple user reviews it has basically forced Rocksteady to rethink things and step up in the hope of reclaiming some vast amounts of revenue that has been lost.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 27, 2015)

It'd be nice if they upped their game... but we know they can't. They've never been able to. the current driver issues show that incredibly well.


----------



## ...PACMAN... (Jul 27, 2015)

Mussels said:


> It'd be nice if they upped their game... but we know they can't. They've never been able to. the current driver issues show that incredibly well.



OK, I'll agree to disagree on this one. It will certainly be interesting over the next couple of months how things will evolve.


----------



## Solaris17 (Jul 28, 2015)

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930

Just because I havent heard anyone cry about this in 8 hours.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 28, 2015)

wake up PC to play starcraft.

Notice my internet connection is maxed out... PC is downloading video card drivers on its own. well i guess no gaming for me for another hour.


----------



## AsRock (Jul 28, 2015)

Mussels said:


> wake up PC to play starcraft.
> 
> Notice my internet connection is maxed out... PC is downloading video card drivers on its own. well i guess no gaming for me for another hour.



Or longer


----------



## Mussels (Jul 28, 2015)

it downloaded cat 15.7 to install over cat 15.7 -.-

it should be noted that cat 15.7 breaks all video playback for me while in crossfire, so this is exactly why forced driver updates are a serious problem.


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 28, 2015)

I think this thing of mandatory automatic updates, without user's consent make Windows to act more like a virus than anything else.

All the world "synchronized", NSA approves it! They will apply great patches to your OS.

Undesired drivers are the least of your concerns... LOL!


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 28, 2015)

Mussels said:


> it downloaded cat 15.7 to install over cat 15.7 -.-
> 
> it should be noted that cat 15.7 breaks all video playback for me while in crossfire, so this is exactly why forced driver updates are a serious problem.



Try the "hide driver updates" vbscript posted in tweaks thread.



Blue-Knight said:


> I think this thing of mandatory automatic updates, without user's consent make Windows to act more like a virus than anything else.
> 
> All the world "synchronized", NSA approves it! They will apply great patches to your OS.
> 
> Undesired drivers are the least of your concerns... LOL!



Do you REALLY think that if the NSA was doing this, it'd be as simple as a group policy key to turn it off?  Every terrorist and his dog probably knows about that key if they are using this as a spy method.

Seriously, get sensible conspiracy theories at least...


----------



## RichF (Jul 28, 2015)

Easo said:


> I thought conspiracy theories were not allowed here.


So much for a substantive response to my post. If you don't like the points I made then either don't respond or make the effort to post something substantive.

Business is a conspiracy to make a profit. Government is a conspiracy to maintain and expand power. If you don't see those things you're being naive. There are a lot of facts, not just theories, if people care to take a look. Dismissing any criticism of the attempt to take control away from people as "conspiracy theories" is lazy, intellectually dishonest, and counterfactual.

One of those is that it is in the interest of people in power to maintain a system where regular people have minimal control over their relationship to information while those in power have things like an expectation of privacy for e-mail. It is hardly theoretical that you can find plenty of articles condescendingly telling regular people that they are foolish if they expect any degree of privacy for services like e-mail and yet the government is going after Clinton for "classified email". How can there be classified e-mail when e-mail is supposed to have no expectation of privacy? That answer is that the government claims it has the right to privacy online and the citizenry can't expect to have that privilege. I guess you missed everything about the Snowden leaks and so on.

It's not much of a theory when there is plenty of hard evidence for anyone who cares to put in the minimal effort required to gather information and connect the dots. There is a clear and obvious trend toward reducing individuals' control over data and their computer experience in general -- toward placing that information in the hands of corporations and government. Remember that corporations are legally obligated to comply with the demands of government surveillance because the courts that rule on this are secret and companies are barred from speaking publicly about the vast majority of the requests and what is related to those. If not for Wikileaks and Snowden there is a lot we would still see as theoretical rather than evidentiary. Part of that evidence is that Microsoft was highly cooperative with the government, even proactive, while Yahoo attempted to resist the demands.

I also noticed that you didn't call out the other posters here who expressed concern over the placement of backdoors.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 28, 2015)

If I was the NSA and wanting to target sensitive data, I'd do it in an OS agnositc way.  The OS is the worst place to do this when most major tech companies are american...  gives us ability to target hardware, so do it in hardware!  Make Intel's "vPro" tech a spy tool.  Use hard disk / SSD firmware (actually, they may already be doing that, don't know if I buy it or not, but it's far more plausable than this), target the BIOS, etc etc.

But seriously...  doing it in the software stack makes zero sense from a spy perspective.  It's highly detectable, and all anyone needs to do to get around it is install linux.  It will also flood you with useless data such as Mary's facebook friends list and what Anna is preparing for tomorrow brunch.  It's borderline stupid, which is part of the reason I call it out as such.


----------



## RichF (Jul 28, 2015)

The Snowden leaks make it quite clear that the NSA and similar agencies highly value having as many vectors as possible. Argumentation based on the concept that they are simply aiming at the most efficient vector while ignoring those which are less so is not supported by the existing evidence. It's also pretty obvious that compromising Windows does not mean Linux is not also compromised.

Regardless of the spying angle, the German government warned (just as one example) about changes related to the trend toward loss of control over computers and the problems that that entails. It's easy to dismiss what I wrote by focusing just on the spying issues but those are just part of the overall trend toward reducing individuated control over information and data for regular people.



			
				zdnet said:
			
		

> the use of Windows 8 in combination with a TPM 2.0 is "accompanied by a loss of control over the operating system and the hardware used." It explains that ... users and computers running critical infrastructure ... may face "new risks."



Similarly, the move toward subscription-based programs, cloud storage, streaming, and other examples are all part of the relocation of user control over their data and computing experience from the user's body and residence toward greater reliance on corporations from afar, corporations which are required by law to acquiesce to secret requests. The pattern toward "the cloud" is, as I said, accompanied by the claims that there are two standards for online privacy: privacy for those in power (e.g. "classified e-mail") and minimal privacy (if any) for regular individuals online. Plenty of mainstream IT articles have declared privacy dead while failing to address the government's belief that it is entitled to things like classified (private) e-mail correspondence.

While this trend can be seen as an unavoidable result of increasing connectivity, due to the rise of the Internet itself, it is not clear to me that one group can demand privacy while simultaneously claiming others are not entitled to it. Privacy cannot be dead and alive at the same time. It is in the interest of anyone in power to reduce others' access to information, as well as their ability to act on that information. All things which concentrate power by reducing individuals' control over their computing experience should be considered in this light.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 28, 2015)

Snowden also told us there are holes in basic AES encryption that the government exploits, and failed to substantiate it.  As far as I'm concerned Russia is using him to stir up trouble these days, and if the leak was not in his initial leak I don't trust it as valid. 

That's just me though.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


----------



## JL87 (Jul 28, 2015)

While drinking my morning coffee and browsing...just wanted to pass this on in case it's of any use/interest.

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/46685/want-forced-windows-10-updates-tool-block/index.html

Now, I have no idea if this is even close to a fix. I did not participate in the beta to rtm program. But I have been following the automatic forced updates news with a bit of interest. I for one will stay away from windows 10 for now until I see if this works itself out one way or another.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 28, 2015)

it allows you to block an update, but in the case of drivers you have to automatically download and install, block, uninstall, then reinstall the old one. far from ideal.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 28, 2015)

^Lol Forbes also posted that article this morning, as news.  Funny part is MS released it 3 weeks ago.  (Not dissing u btw JL87).

I thought Forbes was a respectable site, similar to NYT,  is that not the case? Seem a bit like Inquirer or wccftech imo.


Btw earlier I read a blog which said updates are for Home Edition, not Pro....... But who knows.



Also after properly testing GTAV tonight I must admit it looks a lot better on W10.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 29, 2015)

I posted that Forbes article becuase even not the usual sites are reporting this.... it'd aTHAT big an issue!

Also they left telemetry in it and some people have wiresharked it and also used other, deeper tools and they've seen some fucky stuff network wise. Also these updates blow thru mobile B/W like water. Even when you set the connection to "metered".


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

You're telling me...lol



One hour after a fresh install:









After seeing this I went on a rampage through the registry,  disabling anything which appeared suspicious or possibly annoying.

Course now UAC is turned off properly windows won't let me load win32 apps.  The trolls. Haven't figured out how to get around that yet. Like I said.... too much time and effort.  _


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 29, 2015)

WTF so they turn off access to win32 apps for turning off UAC geez um they are bad. That's midevil shit there.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

Might just be Windows shop apps like Maps, Cortana and People etc.  Still an unnecessary PITA, specially  since have to delve into the registry to disable UAC in the first place.

I think the term Power User is no longer in M$'s vocabulary.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 29, 2015)

They are targeting 3 year old Fatima that cries when Disney channel isn't playing her toons


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 29, 2015)

UAC and power user are not really mutually exclusive, though I agree with giving options for certain.


----------



## SonicZap (Jul 29, 2015)

Wait, what's different in UAC between 8.1 and 10? I have UAC enabled on 8.1 and I'm fine with it.


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 29, 2015)

Not sure about the difference, but I have several times come across software installs and operation where I am told by the vendor to disable UAC in order to make the install/program run properly. This should be fun....


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> UAC and power user are not really mutually exclusive, though I agree with giving options for certain.


Can u think of any reason why Joe Power User would want UAC turned on?  I can't. 

BtwI remember now it prevents Immersive Shell running.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 29, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Can u think of any reason why Joe Power User would want UAC turned on?  I can't.



Same reason a linux user should never run as root full time.  Full power is dangerous.  It's not quite comparable in Windows (as technically the SYSTEM account is root), but you can still fuck up your system massively if you give the wrong command.  This is particularly true at command prompt and ESPECIALLY with powershell.

I run with it enabled as I frequently edit .cmds and scripts of all sorts.


----------



## remixedcat (Jul 29, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Can u think of any reason why Joe Power User would want UAC turned on?  I can't.
> 
> BtwI remember now it prevents Immersive Shell running.




Typical mentality of people that want to punish ppl for stuff becuase they have an agenda of nanny state control. Seems it's an epidemic in the PNW within the past 2 or so years  Another reason I'm glad to not live there.


----------



## SonicZap (Jul 29, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Same reason a linux user should never run as root full time.  Full power is dangerous.  It's not quite comparable in Windows (as technically the SYSTEM account is root), but you can still fuck up your system massively if you give the wrong command.  This is particularly true at command prompt and ESPECIALLY with powershell.


It's not only scripts either, think of all the 3rd party programs that you run. I don't want them all to have administrative priveleges, there could be various vulnerabilities in many of them, and if I don't trust the author of the software entirely, they can do less harm when running with user rights. I will only elevate software that have a good reason for needing administrative priveleges.


----------



## jboydgolfer (Jul 29, 2015)

Now would a Company SO nice Force updates on You??


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Same reason a linux user should never run as root full time.  Full power is dangerous.  It's not quite comparable in Windows (as technically the SYSTEM account is root), but you can still fuck up your system massively if you give the wrong command.


Hmm, I'll take that as a "no I can't think of a single reason either," it's weak enough.  
Dangerous" is for those who don't know they're doing.  Power Users are known as power users because.....um, they aren't noobs? 

Besides, UAC isn't bullet-proof anyway.    
If a curious end user can find his way into the registry, then he can also disable UAC, give himself write access and happily and completely fubar his system.  UAC will not save him.....


----------



## Reefer86 (Jul 29, 2015)

Microsoft has already said this can be turned off.............................in a statement no less after the graphics driver glitches.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyl...soft-backtracks-on-windows-10-forced-updates/

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/07/windows-10-includes-an-update-blocking-driver-fail-safe-tool/


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 29, 2015)

Reefer86 said:


> Microsoft has already said this can be turned off.............................in a statement no less after the graphics driver glitches.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyl...soft-backtracks-on-windows-10-forced-updates/


 
Except you missed I beleive it was @Mussels report on how this actually works.  It first insists that you let the offending update install. Then you must uninstall it again, before you can tell it not to install that update again.  The Forbes guy did a disservice by even admitting he had not tried it yet to see how it actually performed before reporting it.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 29, 2015)

Reefer86 said:


> Microsoft has already said this can be turned off.............................in a statement no less after the graphics driver glitches.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyl...soft-backtracks-on-windows-10-forced-updates/
> 
> http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/07/windows-10-includes-an-update-blocking-driver-fail-safe-tool/





rtwjunkie said:


> Except you missed I beleive it was @Mussels report on how this actually works.  It first insists that you let the offending update install. Then you must uninstall it again, before you can tell it not to install that update again.  The Forbes guy did a disservis by even admitting he had not tried it yet to see how it actually performed before reporting it.



It only works on updates that have not been installed yet.
So if you have a problem with an update, you have to run this program either before its installed, or after its uninstalled - let it scan for available updates - and then 'hide' that update.

this is what it shows me, on pro because i have all available updates installed (because i have no choice in the matter)





So to make an example of how this actually works you have to:
Run it before windows update automatically runs
run it before windows update automatically installs the update/driver
or
run it after all of the above you manually uninstall the windows update, reboot, and BEFORE it tries to reinstall it


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 29, 2015)

So, have we determined that simply disabling the Windows Update service will prevent _any_ updates from being installed?


----------



## erocker (Jul 29, 2015)

So... Is there an actual way to turn off Windows Update and just use the service manually?


----------



## RejZoR (Jul 29, 2015)

What retard thought it would be good idea to provide separate tool which is as retarded as mentally challenged amoeba instead of fucking giving the user option to decide if they want to install it or not. Windows 8.1 has this solved perfectly.
I never had issues with security updates so have those forced. But updates for non security related things should be OPTIONAL. Not installing them doesn' compromise security, but it saves you whole lot of cursing and spitting at the Microsoft name. How fucking daft are people at Microsoft for not getting this VERY simple part? It's not freaking rocket science...


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 29, 2015)

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...igned-by-the-monopoly-men-of-the-global-elite


----------



## Blue-Knight (Jul 29, 2015)

> Do you think mandatory Windows 10 updates are a good idea?


We have *42* votes for YES!

Please, could any of you who voted yes explain why do you think it is a good idea?

Thank you!


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 29, 2015)

^ I have been wondering the same thing. Maybe Microsquish Shills have infiltrated the TP forums? Teehee! 

OT: Anyone running windows 10 with a RAID array? Mucho problems with games stuttering when the data is installed to my array. I use a Revo3 drive 240GB for the OS & 2x 240 CL4100s for my array. I have tried diff RST drivers, OROMs.


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 29, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> ^ I have been wondering the same thing. Maybe Microsquish Shills have infiltrated the TP forums? Teehee!
> 
> OT: Anyone running windows 10 with a RAID array? Mucho problems with games stuttering when the data is installed to my array. I use a Revo3 drive 240GB for the OS & 2x 240 CL4100s for my array. I have tried diff RST drivers, OROMs.


YIKES... not here.... I thought about it for one of my boxes, just stuck with a bunch of drives.


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

erocker said:


> So... Is there an actual way to turn off Windows Update and just use the service manually?


Go into Services and change Windows Update Service to either disabled or manual start.    If you have Pro u can select deferred update under the  Windows Update advanced options menu.

Then there's always the registry. lol


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> ^ I have been wondering the same thing. Maybe Microsquish Shills have infiltrated the TP forums? Teehee!
> 
> OT: Anyone running windows 10 with a RAID array? M ucho problems with games stuttering when the data is installed to my array. I use a Revo3 drive 240GB for the OS & 2x 240 CL4100s for my array. I have tried diff RST drivers, OROMs.


Yeah I was while testing, and the drives intermittently stop responding. I think it's something to do with the storage spaces driver.

You don't have the 15.7 drivers installed do you? They make GTA V freeze every few seconds..


Btw a new Catalyst driver came out today. Build 1062.  


Download Full Release Notes


This driver is not intended for use on AMD products running in Apple Boot Camp platforms. Users of these platforms should contact their manufacturer for driver assistance.
When installing the AMD Catalyst™ Driver for Windows® operating system, the user must be logged on as Administrator, or have Administrator rights to complete the installation of the AMD Catalyst™ Driver.
The AMD Catalyst™ 15.7.1 Software Suite requires Windows® 7 Service Pack 1 to be installed.
The AMD Catalyst™ 15.7.1 Software Suite requires Microsoft® .NET Framework 4.5 to be installed. Microsoft .NET Framework 4.5 is included in all AMD Catalyst™ packages.
Resolved Issues:


[421165] Battlefield™ Hardline becomes unresponsive after toggling the in-game Vsync option.
[422261] *Mantle-based application may crash when system is woken from sleep mode*
[422291] Battlefield™ 4 may crash if run in Mantle mode with AMD Crossfire™ enabled
[422273] A crash may be experienced on some AMD Radeon™ R9 300 series products while running the Unigene benchmark
[422249] A ‘missing Dll’ error message may be experienced while doing an express uninstall of the current driver
[421444] Transcoded clips may fail to play on some Drag and Drop devices
[422853] Some systems experience a minor performance drop from 15.15 to 15.20 in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt with HairWorks enabled
[422800] Some “Kaveri” APU-based systems may experience minor performance drop on PCMark8® Video Group Chat & Casual Gaming tests
[422797] Display profiles are not retained after driver upgrade from 14.502 to 15.20
[422249] DLL missing popup message may be encountered when performing an express uninstall of the display driver. This will not impact the uninstall process
[422342] Cyberlink PowerDVD plays 3D content in 2D mode
[421570] Audio driver is banged out for non-primary ASIC after enabling CF and rebooting system
[422675] Intermittent BSOD occurs when launching a race in Dirt Rally™
[422621] With quad AMD CrossFire™ mode enabled, TDR or blank display occurs when launching DirectX® 9 application in full screen
[419871] BSOD observed when performing an express uninstall of the display driver in 4K resolution
[422671] Flickering corruption may occur in Dirt Rally™ with Advanced Blending enabled
[422672] Flickering corruption may occur in Dirt Rally™ when changing settings during gameplay
[422056] 3DMark Farandole may crash when AMD Mantle is selected from the test suite
Known Issues:


[424127] *The Firefox browser may crash while opening multiple tabs (2 or more)*
*Disabling hardware acceleration or opening multiple windows instead of multiple tabs is a temporary workaround solution*

[423635] A Blue Screen error may be observed with some Intel+AMD configurations on driver installation. As a workaround, please update your drivers using Windows update.
[423536] F1™ 2015 may experience poor AMD Crossfire™ scaling
[423976] *GTA V may crash on extended gameplay on some AMD Radeon™ R9 300 series products*
[423982] GRID: Autosport™ and Batman™: Arkham Knight may not launch on some Intel+AMD configurations
[423651] Applying Video Quality (VQ) settings while playing Flash/HTML5 content may result in screen flicker
[420370] The Frame Rate option is erroneously displayed in the AMD Catalyst™ Control Center Performance Tab for systems with Intel processors and AMD GPUs.
[423656] *A Blue Screen error may be encountered on some AMD Radeon™ R9 300 series products if AMD Crossfire™ is enabled/disabled while BluRay or DVD playback is in progress*
[423520] AMD Dual Graphics may not be available on some AMD A10-5750M-equipped laptops
[423824] Unable to create an SLS in Eyefinity if a 5K display is part of the SLS.
[423759] Fill SLS mode will not apply when 2560x1600 resolution and 2560x1440 resolution displays are used
[423550] VSR mode may be erroneously displayed on devices that do not support the feature
[423378] *Dirt Rally™ may show corruption in game textures *after installing the V500 game update
[423969] *System may hang while running the 3D Mark 2011 benchmark* in a loop on some AMD Radeon™ R9 200 series products.
[422748] Battlefield Hardline may experience stuttering during game play
[422806] Battlefield Hardline may crash on pressing Ctrl+Alt+Del while running in Mantle mode
[423311]* A TDR error may be experienced when running the Windows Metro camera application in a SLS configuration*
[422944] Fire in Total War™ : Attila may experience corruption when in AMD CrossFire™ mode
[422291] *Battlefield 4 triggers TDR and crash when running in AMD Mantle mode*
[421719] Flickering and intermittent display blanking out with LG31MU97 if resolution is set above 1920x1080
[422674] *Corruption may occur in Dirt Rally™ with CMAA enabled with Portrait SLS and AMD CrossFire™ mode enabled*
[421388] *AMD Radeon™ R9 390 Series may experience screen corruption in 3Dmark11 "Deep Sea" Demo*
[422623]* Rage: In game cinematic may stutter when quad AMD Crossfire™ mode is enabled*
[421110] *The Witcher® 3: Wild Hunt - Corruption may be observed when AA is enabled in AMD Crossfire™ mode*
http://support.amd.com/en-us/download/desktop?os=Windows+10+-+64


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 29, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> YIKES... not here.... I thought about it for one of my boxes, just stuck with a bunch of drives.



Set up a spanned volume, JBOD(Just a bunch of Disks)


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 29, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> Set up a spanned volume, JBOD(Just a bunch of Disks)


If your games are on a JBOD array I'm not surprised performance is hampered.  
JBOD isn't really RAID,the drives are just daisy chained together to make one big logical volume. They work independently.


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 30, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Yeah I was while testing, and the drives intermittently stop responding. I think it's something to do with the storage spaces driver.
> 
> You don't have the 15.7 drivers installed do you? They make GTA V freeze every few seconds..
> 
> ...


Holy crap... think I'll pass on this one for a while.....


----------



## Mussels (Jul 30, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> So, have we determined that simply disabling the Windows Update service will prevent _any_ updates from being installed?



one forum member posted a better solution in the win10 tweak thread which allows you to stop it searching automatically, which is the best solution so far. at least then you get to choose to check for updates when you want, although you still cant choose which ones to download, or stop them once they start.


holy crap those driver release notes are exactly why forced updates are bad. i wonder if they did it deliberately to help draw attention to the issues.


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 30, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> If your games are on a JBOD array I'm not surprised performance is hampered.
> JBOD isn't really RAID,the drives are just daisy chained together to make one big logical volume. They work independently.



I have a RAID 0 array, thought dude said he had a bunch of drives so I suggested a spanned volume for all his disk.


----------



## R-T-B (Jul 30, 2015)

erocker said:


> So... Is there an actual way to turn off Windows Update and just use the service manually?



Yes.  Group policy for example.  See my tweaks in the tweak thread.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 30, 2015)

Blue-Knight said:


> We have *42* votes for YES!
> 
> Please, could any of you who voted yes explain why do you think it is a good idea?
> 
> Thank you!



Devil's advocate, given I've already expressed the opinion that this is 100% weapons grade crap.

You buy a work station.  Said work station utilizes integrated Intel ethernet, a Quadro or Firepro GPU, and almost nothing else.  Intel drivers are generally very stable.  Quadro and Firepro GPUs rarely get updates, because they aren't consumer cards that will require updating for games.  Your user base is a bunch of accountants and business people who don't give a crap about the box on their desk as long as it boots up quickly, runs for 5 years without fail, and rarely remember to shut their machines down over weekends and holidays.  For an admin at these sites, maintenance is basically just on the network.  Security patches are installed immediately as they become available, software is up to date, and the users don't have to know anything but where the on button is.



Outside of said fictional land of unicorns, we've got reality.  Sometime the latest laptop drivers don't play well with the network (sigh), sometimes crap like Nvidia and AMD GPU drivers have a longer list of known bugs than fixes, and sometimes the automatic driver updates (even in 7) find the most horrible possible driver (this is why anyone with an ounce of experience downloads the newest drivers from a manufacturer's website when building a new PC, instead of letting automatic update bork it thoroughly).

Great in theory, horrible in practice.  It's a lot like communism.  Unless everyone is 100% equal, some people will be more equal than others...


----------



## Mussels (Jul 30, 2015)

nvidias windows 10 release is full of people with laptops complaining of issues, such as their secondary GPU's not showing up leaving them stuck on intel IGP only.

yet another reason these forced drivers are stupid...


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 30, 2015)

http://i.imgur.com/DiQbvqa.jpg

A guru3d member made this to sum up Windows 10, lol!


----------



## Arjai (Jul 30, 2015)

waiting until the last day...unless things change dramatically, before that. I am a bit leary about this new "FREE" crap.

and about this being the end all of end all's. Windows 10 forever?

Not buying that line. I have more than 20 years left to live, as long as I don't get murdered by someone. Not too likely, I hope.

I don't think, w10 will last that long. Greed is the only lasting quality Humans have. The rest has a lifespan of less than a month.

Well, except revenge. Or, Stupidity....Point is, Win10 is none of these. It is an OS. It will change, but no one will be completely happy about it.

For instance, 8.1 was a success. But, there were naysayers galore. I feel, as a user of XP, 7, and now 8 and 8.1, 8.1 is the, arguably, the best windows OS ever.

I have two comps on 7, two on Linux Distros, and this Ultrabook on, now, 8.1. All of them have their benefits. All of them have had their problems. DX12 seems to be the biggest benefit of 10, yet no games have yet to utilize it, probably not for some time now.

10 is not ready, just like 8 was not ready. 8.1 fixed a bunch. MS heard what people wanted. 

MS nw seems to think they know what people want, Hopefully, they will listen, again, and fix this Beta RTM.

As far as the whole Conspiracy angle goes...If the NSA wants to watch me Jack Off, through my Integrated Camera, so be it. Until that is illegal, I have nothing else to hide. ( they already know what I have done for this government, that I cannot reveal).

I would rather not have to be a Beta tester, I have enough to do!!

Yada, Yada, Bing, Bang...This song is OVER!!


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 30, 2015)

Mussels said:


> one forum member posted a better solution in the win10 tweak thread which allows you to stop it searching automatically, which is the best solution so far. at least then you get to choose to check for updates when you want, although you still cant choose which ones to download, or stop them once they start.
> 
> 
> holy crap those driver release notes are exactly why forced updates are bad. i wonder if they did it deliberately to help draw attention to the issues.


The Catalyst release notes always look like that.   Most of the issues highlighted in red have been present for years. Occasionally notes are updated to reflect the new GPU or game which it affects.   

The TDR's, Firefox crashing while watching movies, black screens on wake up, graphical corruption in The Witcher which stems back to Oblivion/Fallout3. 

But don't panic, just disable crossfire. The miracle fix for everything.


----------



## Ahhzz (Jul 30, 2015)

Mussels said:


> nvidias windows 10 release is full of people with laptops complaining of issues, such as their secondary GPU's not showing up leaving them stuck on intel IGP only.
> 
> yet another reason these forced drivers are stupid...


It's really for the best. What standard user doesn't benefit from having the latest drivers and updates for their computer?!!?


----------



## rtwjunkie (Jul 30, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> It's really for the best. What standard user doesn't benefit from having the latest drivers and updates for their computer?!!?


Maybe for alot that can barely manage the task of turning their computer on.  That's why it should be optional, bc people who aren't standard users know that latest driver is not always best.


----------



## Mussels (Jul 30, 2015)

Ahhzz said:


> It's really for the best. What standard user doesn't benefit from having the latest drivers and updates for their computer?!!?



what standard user can fix it when a driver update breaks something?


----------



## broken pixel (Jul 30, 2015)

“Where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defense.”

- Dante


----------



## Pill Monster (Jul 30, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> I have a RAID 0 array, thought dude said he had a bunch of drives so I suggested a spanned volume for all his disk.


Ah right OK.  

What RAID controller is it?  I got AMD and after removing the 3.6.1 drivers and installing 3.02 things seem better.   On W7 though,  haven't used 10 for a while.


----------



## Loosenut (Jul 30, 2015)

broken pixel said:


> http://i.imgur.com/DiQbvqa.jpg
> 
> A guru3d member made this to sum up Windows 10, lol!



George Orwell's 1984 is getting frighteningly closer and closer...


----------



## Caring1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Loosenut said:


> George Orwell's 1984 is getting frighteningly closer and closer...


Closer?
It's already here.


----------



## hat (Jul 31, 2015)

I wonder if this could be related? I have problems with my audio randomly completely cutting out (playing SUPCOM2, suddenly no audio is what happened most recently). I decided to pay the Realtek website a visit, and downloaded their drivers. The installer, apparently, uninstalls the current drivers, and reboots. Upon reboot, it... uninstalls the drivers again? I went through 4 reboots until I gave up and clicked cancel.

Could be some kind of fluke or error somehow, but since changing the setting in the hardware tab of advanced system settings to never let windows update install drivers, the realtek drivers seem to have installed normally.


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## broken pixel (Jul 31, 2015)

Pill Monster said:


> Ah right OK.
> 
> What RAID controller is it?  I got AMD and after removing the 3.6.1 drivers and installing 3.02 things seem better.   On W7 though,  haven't used 10 for a while.



Its an intel ICH10 controller.


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## RichF (Aug 13, 2015)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> It's a lot like communism.  Unless everyone is 100% equal, some people will be more equal than others...


All contemporary economies of note are more communistic than they are capitalistic. The allegedly highly capitalistic ones are just better at obscuring that fact. Pure capitalism is more out of our reach than pure communism is. The major difference is to what degree the masses believe that the welfare state for the elite enables them to become elites themselves. Consider that social class fluidity in the USA is near an all-time low. 

That said, pure communism will never ever be reached because the entire point of law and government is to maintain elite privilege.


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## HWTactics (Aug 13, 2015)

Not sure if this was already mentioned (12 pages of posts already!) but I just noticed tonight that you can no longer delay Win 7 updates more than twice now.  The third time the delay button is grayed out.  Taking a page out of Windows 10's book?

Grumble mumble...


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## RichF (Aug 13, 2015)

HWTactics said:


> Not sure if this was already mentioned (12 pages of posts already!) but I just noticed tonight that you can no longer delay Win 7 updates more than twice now.  The third time the delay button is grayed out.  Taking a page out of Windows 10's book?
> 
> Grumble mumble...


I guess Microsoft agrees with Google that the "do no evil" mantra is outmoded.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 13, 2015)

So I tried playing a MPEG2-TS file using "Movies & TV" app.  It erred saying it didn't have the appropriate codec.  About an hour an half later, I started another MPEG2-TS file and this time, it worked.  It must have automatically obtained the perquisite codec which I think is a good thing.

At the same time, Microsoft obtaining unstable drivers automatically is not a good thing.  

I think it's a 50/50 thing.  In some cases, it is great; in others, it is not.


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## Mussels (Aug 13, 2015)

i really think they can resolve the issues in windows 10 with a few changes:

1. Allow users to set an internet bandwidth limit for the downloads (for those on crap internet), but no option to stop the security updates.
2. Make driver updates optional, but prompt users about them. No boot issues are just too hard for the average user to recover from, when they can just reinstall themselves.


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## R-T-B (Aug 13, 2015)

RichF said:


> That said, pure communism will never ever be reached because the entire point of law and government is to maintain elite privilege.



No, it's more basic than that.  It'll never be reached because greed is fundamental to the human existence.


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## RejZoR (Aug 13, 2015)

Gone back to Windows 8.1 and working with updates is absolute joy. That Win10 forced updates f**kery is annoying as hell. I sometimes wonder who decides for such stupid things and gets paid a 5+ digit value a month...


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