# AMD Updates Roadmaps to Lock RDNA2 and Zen 3 onto 7nm+, with 2020 Launch Window



## btarunr (Sep 12, 2019)

AMD updated its technology roadmaps to reflect a 2020 launch window for its upcoming CPU and graphics architectures, "Zen 3" and RDNA2. The two will be based on 7 nm+ , which is AMD-speak for the 7 nanometer EUV silicon fabrication process at TSMC, that promises a significant 20 percent increase in transistor-densities, giving AMD high transistor budgets and more clock-speed headroom. The roadmap slides however hint that unlike the "Zen 2" and RDNA simultaneous launch on 7th July 2019, the next-generation launches may not be simultaneous. 

The slide for CPU microarchitecture states that the design phase of "Zen 3" is complete, and that the microarchitecture team has already moved on to develop "Zen 4." This means AMD is now developing products that implement "Zen 3." On the other hand, RDNA2 is still in design phase. The crude x-axis on both slides that denotes year of expected shipping, too appears to suggest that "Zen 3" based products will precede RDNA2 based ones. "Zen 3" will be AMD's first response to Intel's "Comet Lake-S" or even "Ice Lake-S," if the latter comes to fruition before Computex 2020. In the run up to RDNA2, AMD will scale up RDNA a notch larger with the "Navi 12" silicon to compete with graphics cards based on NVIDIA's "TU104" silicon. "Zen 2" will receive product stack additions in the form of a new 16-core Ryzen 9-series chip later this month, and the 3rd generation Ryzen Threadripper family.



 



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## R0H1T (Sep 12, 2019)

If only there were some popcorn emojis


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## GoldenX (Sep 12, 2019)

This is turning up to be a better fight than the old Athlon 64 va Pentium 4. Good times ahead.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 12, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> This is turning up to be a better fight than the old Athlon 64 va Pentium 4. Good times ahead.



yep I am very surprised honestly, just hope AMD can hammer out better drivers, because even if they can beat Nvidia next round, if I can't launch any and every game I want with 0 issues... not going to bother. I hope they can pull it off.


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## Fouquin (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> if I can't launch any and every game I want with 0 issues... not going to bother.



"If they can't do something that literally nobody ever in the history of everything has ever done, they suck."


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## Space Lynx (Sep 12, 2019)

Fouquin said:


> "If they can't do something that literally nobody ever in the history of everything has ever done, they suck."



my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.


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## Anymal (Sep 12, 2019)

Nvidia throws more money in developers.


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## Xaled (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.


İf youve got 80 % of the market and you sell your products with double the price, you have to make drivers with 0 issues. it is not optional


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## 1d10t (Sep 12, 2019)

RTG moving at slower pace compare to CPU division, they still drawing RDNA2 



lynx29 said:


> my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.



Jeez man, I'm always read your comment about how bad AMD this, AMD that. Why not go back to your previous system to give you peace of mind? 
Yeah, AMD bad at driver , but how many of them died within months ?


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## Space Lynx (Sep 12, 2019)

1d10t said:


> RTG moving at slower pace compare to CPU division, they still drawing RDNA2
> 
> 
> 
> ...




hmm owned AMD and Nvidia gpus my entire life, upgrade every generation for over a decade never had any hardware die on me.



Xaled said:


> İf youve got 80 % of the market and you sell your products with double the price, you have to make drivers with 0 issues. it is not optional



yeah i like to game without issue... don't care what hardware I use as long as its stable and works out of the box. AMD can't offer that me with Navi yet... so Nvidia it is. when Navi can offer that I will gladly go back to red team... pretty basic logic.


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> This is turning up to be a better fight than the old Athlon 64 va Pentium 4. Good times ahead.


It's not as different as you think.
Back then AMD had Athlon first (that brought the IPC fight to Intel). Then they had AthlonXP (dreamy overclocking). Then Athlon64 came (64bit and integrated memory controller). And then we had Athlon64 X2 (real multicore).
So they did have an engineering roadmap back then, too. They just left marketing and sales to chance.


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## 1d10t (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> hmm owned AMD and Nvidia gpus my entire life, upgrade every generation for over a decade never had any hardware die on me.



Playing victim card I presume. So what your take on that news, did news outlet just fabricated it or high end RTX user are mostly repugnant?  
Same goes here, I'm always had Crossfire since X850 XT master-slave era and have given me 0 issues. Are these sound plausible?
There always be a problem on both sides, whether you choose to hyperbolize minor glitch or you just pretend there's no elephant in the room. You know, like 95W TDP and 50Mhz lesser boost


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## lewis007 (Sep 12, 2019)

AMD should do a simultaneous launch, the wall to wall coverage they received with Ryzen 2 and the RX series whether good or bad increased sales by quite a margin.


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## efikkan (Sep 12, 2019)

There is an elephant in the room; Nvidia is expected to launch their 7nm Turing successor sometime in 2020, and if AMD finally launches a "RTX 2080 competitor" in 2020, then it's going to be too little too late once again.

AMD need to catch up in the GPU market, and not by waiting and hoping for the competition to "screw up".



lynx29 said:


> yep I am very surprised honestly, just hope AMD can hammer out better drivers, because even if they can beat Nvidia next round, if I can't launch any and every game I want with 0 issues... not going to bother. I hope they can pull it off.


Yes, AMD's driver quality is nowhere close to Nvidia's unfortunately. Whether or not this matters is up to the end users. But despite AMD having fewer resources than Nvidia, they could prioritize and get this solved. AMD have hundreds of engineers working on "optimizing" for games (which means manipulating shaders, etc.) to squeeze out that ~2% extra, while they should be focusing on making the best drivers ever. Even Nvidia's drivers is not perfect, so there is plenty of room for improvement.



Anymal said:


> Nvidia throws more money in developers.


Due to the consoles, there are far more AMD sponsored titles.



1d10t said:


> Yeah, AMD bad at driver , but how many of them died within months ?


Feeding the conspiracy theories again?
A few cards being DoA, and a failure rate of 2-5% is completely normal, and Turing is below that. Most of the reported problems were later dismissed as driver bugs (which were also fixed), and only a few cards were actually defective.


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## 1d10t (Sep 12, 2019)

efikkan said:


> Yes, *AMD's driver quality is nowhere close to Nvidia's unfortunately*. Whether or not this matters is up to the end users. But despite AMD having fewer resources than Nvidia



How about your latter comment...



efikkan said:


> Feeding the conspiracy theories again?
> A few cards being DoA, and a failure rate of 2-5% is completely normal, and Turing is below that. Most of the reported problems were later dismissed as *driver bugs* (which were also fixed), and only a few cards were actually defective.



Okay, nuff said


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## Aquinus (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> hmm owned AMD and Nvidia gpus my entire life, upgrade every generation for over a decade never had any hardware die on me.


Tell that to a co-worker of mine where his replacement 2080 Ti just failed, so that's two dead 2080 Tis. Just because you haven't had issues doesn't mean others haven't.


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## efikkan (Sep 12, 2019)

1d10t said:


> How about your latter comment...
> 
> Okay, nuff said


Where is your logical reasoning here? So just because Nvidia isn't 100% perfect, we can ignore all problems from AMD? This sort of argumentation is childish.

And if you actually read my whole post, you would also see; _Even Nvidia's drivers is not perfect, so there is plenty of room for improvement._
Turing launched with at least 3-4 bugs which were quickly fixed, which is a lot from Nvidia, and is probably the "worst driver launch" they've done in many years, and I've criticized it plenty for that reason. But at least their drivers are stable once the initial bugs are ironed out.


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## Xuper (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> yeah i like to game without issue... don't care what hardware I use as long as its stable and works out of the box. AMD can't offer that me with Navi yet... so Nvidia it is. when Navi can offer that I will gladly go back to red team... pretty basic logic.



LOL Then Why are you bothering with AMD ? Just Forget AMD and Stay with your beloved Nvidia.Period.You really don't need it.


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## ppn (Sep 12, 2019)

takes them years to release TU106 competitor and then in who knows how long for the TU104. Perhaps TU102 competitor for 2021. Instead of releasing them in few months distance. but Nvidia can beat Navi12 with TU106 shrink to 6nm. the same way GTX560 40nm outperformed GTX280 65nm. So yeah RTX 5060 6nm wil beat RTX 2080S 12nm.


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## TheMadDutchDude (Sep 12, 2019)

That logic is so flawed, and pure speculation from you alone.

Back on topic: I don’t see how the clocks will improve. They barely got better with the shrink from 12 to 7 nm, and if they did, the all-core clocks are mostly about 100 MHz better - an improvement, yes, but not by much.


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## Th3pwn3r (Sep 12, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> Tell that to a co-worker of mine where his replacement 2080 Ti just failed, so that's two dead 2080 Tis. Just because you haven't had issues doesn't mean others haven't.



Honestly it's probably something he's doing then. Seems super unlikely. Admittedly the only GPU I have had fail on me were from Nvidia ages ago.

Anyhow, the crazy thing is that Nvidia is still the top dog with it's super old architecture.


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## Xuper (Sep 12, 2019)

Worth to watch.Article

RDNA 2 should improve at least 15%.


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

Xuper said:


> Worth to watch.Article
> 
> RDNA 2 should improve at least 15%.


There's a lot of things AMD's products "should" do.
Save your time (and sanity) and only follow what they actually deliver. And this is not limited to AMD, I treat Nvidia and Intel just the same.


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## diatribe (Sep 12, 2019)

Anymal said:


> Nvidia throws more money in developers.


How to they get the money 'in' them?  Some type of suppository?


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

diatribe said:


> How to they get the money 'in' them?  Some type of suppository?


It's part of how devious Nvidia really is


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## GoldenX (Sep 12, 2019)

I have 7 years old GCN cards, how are AMD cards DoA?


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## xkm1948 (Sep 12, 2019)

RDNA2 in 2020, hmm, so there may not be a big navi after all.

Ever since Raja left I felt the RTG driver team has been slowly falling apart.


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> RDNA2 in 2020, hmm, so there may not be a big navi after all.
> 
> Ever since Raja left I felt the RTG driver team has been slowly falling apart.


I've also predicted no big Navi, based on the scaling shown between 5700 and 5700XT.
Still, having something faster out next year is what matters. Whether it's big Navi or something RDNA2 is not so important. Considering how much ground AMD's GPU team has to cover, iterating fast may be the better option after all.

Also, it's not like Raja scored major hits before he left


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## Deleted member 158293 (Sep 12, 2019)

Besides possibly Apple, AMD will have the most 7nm design experience as the prices matures.  In many ways probably more than Apple as they use 7nm for both CPU & GPU, exciting times ahead!


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## Aquinus (Sep 12, 2019)

Th3pwn3r said:


> Honestly it's probably something he's doing then. Seems super unlikely. Admittedly the only GPU I have had fail on me were from Nvidia ages ago.


You mean you're going to ignore real issues that cropped up early with founder edition 2080 Tis? I've had a 7900 GT fail on me back in the day.


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## xkm1948 (Sep 12, 2019)

bug said:


> I've also predicted no big Navi, based on the scaling shown between 5700 and 5700XT.
> Still, having something faster out next year is what matters. Whether it's big Navi or something RDNA2 is not so important. Considering how much ground AMD's GPU team has to cover, iterating fast may be the better option after all.
> 
> Also, it's not like Raja scored major hits before he left




At least during Raja and before him the driver team was not pumping out garbage drivers in terms of stability.

That old FuryX I gave away is apparently having loads of stability issues with EVERY driver after 19.5.2, mostly with twitch streaming overlay corruption and stuff.


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> At least during Raja and before him the driver team was not pumping out garbage drivers in terms of stability.
> 
> That old FuryX I gave away is apparently having loads of stability issues with EVERY driver after 19.5.2, mostly with twitch streaming overlay corruption and stuff.


It's one of their traditions. Back in ATI Rage days, there was this guy that wrote a driver better than the official one, on his own, with no access to documentation. (And yes, I know video cards were much simpler back then.)


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## xkm1948 (Sep 12, 2019)

bug said:


> It's one of their traditions. Back in ATI Rage days, there was this guy that wrote a driver better than the official one, on his own, with no access to documentation. (And yes, I know video cards were much simpler back then.)



I was so happy installing those Omega drivers on my good old R9700. Those were the days


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## Deleted member 158293 (Sep 12, 2019)

What does Raja have to do with drivers?!  AMD's best driver and 3D graphics developer tools lead developer dates back to the ATI days, when he left AMD after the merge their drivers imploded.  I believe when he came back was when AMD started their big yearly releases, much quicker updates and hugely better developer relations through Sony & Microsoft.

Makes me wonder if he left again or the Navi launch was way too rushed.


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

xkm1948 said:


> I was so happy installing those Omega drivers on my good old R9700. Those were the days


I don't think it was Omega, this was before his time. Then again, I can't find references anymore, maybe it was Omega who did it.

Also the R9700 was a sweet card. Even more so for the R9500 that unlocked into R9700  Unfortunately, that was also the last time ATI/AMD offered anything to catch my attention. They had some good cards wit their HD2000/3000 series, but, unfortunately for them, that was a time when I didn't feel the need to upgrade.


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## efikkan (Sep 12, 2019)

bug said:


> I've also predicted no big Navi, based on the scaling shown between 5700 and 5700XT.
> Still, having something faster out next year is what matters. Whether it's big Navi or something RDNA2 is not so important. Considering how much ground AMD's GPU team has to cover, iterating fast may be the better option after all.


I haven't seen any solid information whether the next iteration will be a refined Navi or their next generation. But if it turns out to be Navi 2x, as you mentioned, the scaling from 5700 to 5700 XT shows how little room there is, so a ~50% larger chip would have to be clocked lower than 5700 to retain decent efficiency. Whatever AMD launches in the Navi family, it will retain the same scaling characteristics. So for this reason, it matters if AMD launches another iteration of Navi or something which (hopefully) is a more efficient architecture. If AMD's lineup for 2020 consists of refreshed and possibly larger Navis, then it's not going to be good enough, which is why I have several times before stated that a second Navi in 2020 is just too late to the party.

Lastly, just to put it out there, a second iteration of Navi may very well be some sort of professional version too, but we have no details on that.


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## xkm1948 (Sep 12, 2019)

yakk said:


> What does Raja have to do with drivers?!  AMD's best driver and 3D graphics developer tools lead developer dates back to the ATI days, when he left AMD after the merge their drivers imploded.  I believe when he came back was when AMD started their big yearly releases, much quicker updates and hugely better developer relations through Sony & Microsoft.
> 
> Makes me wonder if he left again or the Navi launch was way too rushed.




A lot of the original ATi talents have departed a long time ago.  Even the Polaris and Vega uArc are designed based in AMD's Shanghai, China branch.

RTG is merely a shadow of what ATi used to be.









						AMD's Raja Koduri and design team celebrate Vega 10 milestone
					

Koduri teases that he will be 'in Vega mode' in Shanghai this week.




					hexus.net


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## medi01 (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> yep I am very surprised honestly, just hope AMD can hammer out better drivers, because even if they can beat Nvidia next round, if I can't launch any and every game I want with 0 issues... not going to bother. I hope they can pull it off.



I also hope AMD drivers will have better support for GTX 1070 of yours.
After all, why the heck not.



efikkan said:


> There is an elephant in the room; Nvidia is expected to launch their 7nm Turing successor sometime in 2020, and if AMD finally launches a "RTX 2080 competitor" in 2020, then it's going to be too little too late once again.
> 
> AMD need to catch up in the GPU market, and not by waiting and hoping for the competition to "screw up".



So far, Nvidia has been going next gen 70 ~= previous gen ~=80 *at nearly the same price*.
Perhaps they'll go cheaper, since AMD is present there, we'll see.
Regardless, it means that AMD will still have products for sizeable chunk of the market, bar very top (which is a dubious investment for them at this point anyhow) in the worst case scenario.
Heck, actual expectations are for 7nm EUV GPUs to go well into 2080+ area. 

Keep in mind Navi has was a major step forward for AMD, both perf/watt and perf/mm2 wise.

Last but not least, actual desktop market share is 2 nvidia cards vs 1 AMD card and not what you see on steam (as seen in the recent report by TPU).


We might witness lovely "can't continue to sell overpriced shit" hangover by NVidia, with The Leather Man torn between ceding market share, or profits or both.


And as an icing on a cake, it will be AMD dictating how RT development will go.


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## Th3pwn3r (Sep 12, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> You mean you're going to ignore real issues that cropped up early with founder edition 2080 Tis? I've had a 7900 GT fail on me back in the day.



You're not new to computers but if you haven't encountered bad batches then you're still green. I once went through 3 doa mobos from Tiger Direct before saying screw it and getting a different type. I never ignores anything . AMD and Nvidia have both had plenty of issues ESPECIALLY upon launch for early adopters. It happens with all sorts of things and in time bugs get worked out. If you don't like AMD or Nvidia that's fine but bias does nothing for us. I'll keep buying whatever gives the best performance for my high end builds and whatever offers best performance per dollar for budget builds . I'm sure you can figure out what I buy, BOTH Nvidia and AMD. Stick with your AMD if it makes you happy


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## efikkan (Sep 12, 2019)

medi01 said:


> So far, Nvidia has been going next gen 70 ~= previous gen ~=80 at nearly the same price.


Often yes, it kind of bumps the tiers one step down. One exception to that was the RTX 2060, which was a large improvement over GTX 1060.



medi01 said:


> Heck, actual expectations are for 7nm EUV GPUs to go well into 2080+ area.


You used the right wording there; actual expectations. Actual expectations for Polars, Vega and Navi were all over the top. Just a few months ago, a couple of the YouTube optinionators predicted Nvidia would be in big trouble because of Navi… 



medi01 said:


> Keep in mind Navi has was a major step forward for AMD, both perf/watt and perf/mm2 wise.


Mostly due to the node shrink and keeping clocks low.
AMD have already spent this node shrink, while Nvidia still have it "in the bank". And generally speaking, more efficient architectures only get more advantageous from node shrinks.



medi01 said:


> Regardless, it means that AMD will still have products for sizeable chunk of the market, bar very top (which is a dubious investment for them at this point anyhow) in the worst case scenario.
> <snip>
> Last but not least, actual desktop market share is 2 nvidia cards vs 1 AMD card and not what you see on steam (as seen in the recent report by TPU).


Only if you include APUs and computers in general. In the Steam survey you can see the market share among gamers is 15% (including APUs). It gets worse if you look at discreet graphics cards, and even moreso if you look at segment by segment of the market. If you compare GTX 1060 vs. RX 480 + RX 580, you see something like 7-10x favor of Nvidia. So in essence, AMD is only selling volumes in the low-end, and barely participating in the mid-range.


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## Turmania (Sep 12, 2019)

I hate to be the one that spoils the party but please sort out your glitches and bugs before you start shipping them.


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## Mephis (Sep 12, 2019)

medi01 said:


> And as an icing on a cake, it will be AMD dictating how RT development will go.



I love this comment.

Of course your reasoning is that because AMD is in both the next XBox and PS5 they will dictate RT.  Except that they were in there last round and it hasn't helped them at all. Microsoft will dictate RT, and they already have with DirectX Ray Tracing (DXR). RTX is already compatible with it (and Vulkan's version as well) and what ever form of RT hardware AMD uses will have to be compatible with it as well. It will all come down to the design of the hardware and drivers, and at this point there is no reason to believe that AMD will have any advantage.


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## GoldenX (Sep 12, 2019)

Turmania said:


> I hate to be the one that spoils the party but please sort out your glitches and bugs before you start shipping them.


Like having to disable HT, getting degraded SATA ports, or just plain overheating?


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## Aquinus (Sep 12, 2019)

If only AMD would produce a 3840 shader, 240 TMU, and 96 ROP Navi part. You know it would raise eyebrows.


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## deu (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.



I baffles me that you have never had problems with nvidia drivers: you could be the first (I have been riding intel and nvidia for about 10 years), and I have had plenty of issues with nvidia (none with intel) But hey good for you, just know that ones emperical selfperformed biased survey to one self is seldom a truely representative scenario.


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## Particle (Sep 12, 2019)

1d10t said:


> Playing victim card I presume. So what your take on that news, did news outlet just fabricated it or high end RTX user are mostly repugnant?
> Same goes here, I'm always had Crossfire since X850 XT master-slave era and have given me 0 issues. Are these sound plausible?
> There always be a problem on both sides, whether you choose to hyperbolize minor glitch or you just pretend there's no elephant in the room. You know, like 95W TDP and 50Mhz lesser boost



Luck of the draw.  Bad cards do happen.

AMD/ATI cards I've had that died or quit working properly:
Radeon 9590 (dead)
Radeon X800 (dead)
Radeon X1900 XT (memory failed, visual corruption)
Radeon 5950 (UVD unit failed, system crashes)
Radeon Vega 64 (unstable, system crashes)

AMD/ATI cards I've had that work fine:
Radeon AIW 9700
Radeon 2900 Pro
Radeon 3870
Radeon 4850
Radeon 5950 (replacement)
Radeon 6970
Radeon 270
Radeon 390
Radeon VII

I run my cards at stock.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 12, 2019)

deu said:


> I baffles me that you have never had problems with nvidia drivers: you could be the first (I have been riding intel and nvidia for about 10 years), and I have had plenty of issues with nvidia (none with intel) But hey good for you, just know that ones emperical selfperformed biased survey to one self is seldom a truely representative scenario.



I do clean installs of Win 10 every 6 months, only takes me 30 mins on NVME drive and 1 gig fiber optic net. thats only time I do nvidia drivers as well, and i never use geforce experience, custom install only.  yep never had a single issue always smooth as butter for me.



Xuper said:


> LOL Then Why are you bothering with AMD ? Just Forget AMD and Stay with your beloved Nvidia.Period.You really don't need it.



because if AMD can offer me the stability which I suspect it will in time, then when I upgrade for performance boost which I do every few years... then AMD might be an option then, have to wait and see when the time comes. if that time was now the answer would be no.  but hopefully not in future.  basic logic, sorry you don't understand it.



Aquinus said:


> Tell that to a co-worker of mine where his replacement 2080 Ti just failed, so that's two dead 2080 Tis. Just because you haven't had issues doesn't mean others haven't.



never experienced this latest gen, so the data set I am using is solely based on previous gens.  again basic logic, I can't comment on data sets I have not experienced.



1d10t said:


> Playing victim card I presume. So what your take on that news, did news outlet just fabricated it or high end RTX user are mostly repugnant?
> Same goes here, I'm always had Crossfire since X850 XT master-slave era and have given me 0 issues. Are these sound plausible?
> There always be a problem on both sides, whether you choose to hyperbolize minor glitch or you just pretend there's no elephant in the room. You know, like 95W TDP and 50Mhz lesser boost



from what i understand it was only 1-3% of all users who got bad cards, we don't really have any official data on how many RTX users got screwed over. also never had any experience with the RTX cards so again out of my data set... sorry you don't understand basic logic. :/


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## Th3pwn3r (Sep 12, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I do clean installs of Win 10 every 6 months, only takes me 30 mins on NVME drive and 1 gig fiber optic net. thats only time I do nvidia drivers as well, and i never use geforce experience, custom install only.  yep never had a single issue always smooth as butter for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great for you but on a sample size of one it doesn't mean much. Green and red have issues in some instances and I don't care how much you pray to tech Jesus to prevent such issues from arising.


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## bug (Sep 12, 2019)

Th3pwn3r said:


> Great for you but on a sample size of one it doesn't mean much. Green and red have issues in some instances and I don't care how much you pray to tech Jesus to prevent such issues from arising.


Well, yeah. Each driver (from whatever manufacturer) comes with a list of known issues. If you happen to need one of those particular use cases, then it sucks for you.
But I have also been problem free for like a decade in the green camp. I used to game a lot (not AAA titles on release, that may be significant) yet my experience has been top-notch.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 12, 2019)

Th3pwn3r said:


> Great for you but on a sample size of one it doesn't mean much. Green and red have issues in some instances and I don't care how much you pray to tech Jesus to prevent such issues from arising.



not a sample siz e of one... sample size of about 15 different gpu's over two decades, my old AMD AGP's gpu's were rock solid though.


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## Anymal (Sep 12, 2019)

bug said:


> It's part of how devious Nvidia really is


Well, as ancient envy god will do.


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## medi01 (Sep 12, 2019)

efikkan said:


> Actual expectations for Polars, Vega and Navi were all over the top.


Not for Navi. It beat expectations by quite a bit.



Mephis said:


> Of course your reasoning is that because AMD is in both the next XBox and PS5 they will dictate RT.


Of course.



Mephis said:


> Except that they were in there last round and it hasn't helped them at all.


Yeah, besides semi custom revenue growing to about half of all revenue and Sony & Microsoft spending tens of millions onto AMD's R&D that goes into non-console products as well.
Oh wait, you said it had NOT helped. Interesting.



Mephis said:


> Microsoft will dictate RT, and they already have with DirectX Ray Tracing (DXR).


Lol.



Mephis said:


> RTX is already compatible with it (and Vulkan's version as well) and what ever form of RT hardware AMD uses will have to be compatible with it as well. It will all come down to the design of the hardware and drivers, and at this point there is no reason to believe that AMD will have any advantage.


Oh, dear, oh dear. RTX being compatible with API that nV asked Microsoft to add, how surprising, lol.

AMD will largely influence what to put into consoles, which will or will not (depends largely on AMD) on whether it will spark RT development or not.

It will be AMD setting RT baseline and it will again be AMD influencing what performance, and what flavor of RT to push for. If they decide "nah, f*ck the Leather Man" so will it be. (see how it worked with FreeSync vs G-Sync)


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## Mephis (Sep 12, 2019)

medi01 said:


> Yeah, besides semi custom revenue growing to about half of all revenue and Sony & Microsoft spending tens of millions onto AMD's R&D that goes into non-console products as well.
> Oh wait, you said it had NOT helped. Interesting.



That's great and all, but the point I was making was that being in the consoles didn't help AMD set the direction for graphic features or performance at all. 



medi01 said:


> Lol.
> 
> 
> Oh, dear, oh dear. RTX being compatible with API that nV asked Microsoft to add, how surprising, lol.
> ...



FreeSync's success had nothing to do with AMD being in the consoles. It was all about the fact that GSync modules added a couple of hundred dollars to monitors.

Do you really think that Microsoft is going to create a new set of Ray Tracing APIs for the consoles. No. Whatever solution AMD uses will have to be able to work with DXR. 

Being in the consoles provided AMD with revenue, but it in no way has helped them gain a performance advantage over Nvidia. In fact one could argue that it has stunted there ability to develope high end GPUs, because they have had to spend so much of there engineering resources on the design and development of said console GPUs. We all have seen and heard the rumors that Navi was initially designed for the consoles first.

You are more than welcome to keep believing that AMD will set the direction of RT, but there is no historical evidence of that being the case.

† Remember that Mantel was supposed to take over the world and usher in a whole new era of performance. Not so much.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 12, 2019)

Mephis said:


> † Remember that Mantel was supposed to take over the world and usher in a whole new era of performance. Not so much.


You're forgetting the part where Mantle essentially became Vulkan which has had adoption by several games and projects. Vulkan is why I can use a project like DXVK to play games like Diablo 3 in Linux without a terrible performance hit. Even Doom's performance improvement using a Vulkan renderer over OpenGL was pretty significant. Same deal with DOTA, so it's not like there is no gain to be had.


Mephis said:


> FreeSync's success had nothing to do with AMD being in the consoles.


FWIW, My Xbox One X plays very nicely with my 4k display and supports FreeSync. So, I wouldn't say it had _nothing_ to do with it.


----------



## Turmania (Sep 13, 2019)

How did you lot turned this into Amd/Nvidia debate?!?  I have not bought an AMD product for half a decade but they have finally gotten their act together.They are not ahead but finally caught up against their competition.Yes, in order to do so they spent their die shrink card whilst others still have it to use at will. But that is an issue for the future.look at now! Things are great we got competition.i5 9600k vs ryzen5 3600x. Now it's hard to choose.in the past it was no brainer.should you buy a 300 usd gtx 1660ti or for 40usd extra get rx 5700 which is almost 50% better performance for a little bit extra. These are good days, competition is great for us. Enjoy it.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> You're forgetting the part where Mantle essentially became Vulkan which has had adoption by several games and projects. Vulkan is why I can use a project like DXVK to play games like Diablo 3 in Linux without a terrible performance hit. Even Doom's performance improvement using a Vulkan renderer over OpenGL was pretty significant. Same deal with DOTA, so it's not like there is no gain to be had.
> 
> FWIW, My Xbox One X plays very nicely with my 4k display and supports FreeSync. So, I wouldn't say it had _nothing_ to do with it.



and yet Navi still has issues with freesync working above 75hz according to a few Navi owners here :/  freesync and g-sync are most important to me as it really enhances the gaming experience. so until Navi can do it 100% at high refresh I have to pass


----------



## Mephis (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> You're forgetting the part where Mantle essentially became Vulkan which has had adoption by another games and projects. Vulkan is why I can use a project like DXVK to play games like Diablo 3 in Linux without a terrible performance hit. Even Doom's performance improvement using a Vulkan renderer over OpenGL was pretty significant. Same deal with DOTA, so it's not like there are no gain to be had.
> 
> FWIW, My Xbox One X plays very nicely with my 4k display and supports FreeSync. So, I wouldn't say it had _nothing_ to do with it.



Yes, Mantle became Vulkan, but it didn't set the world on fire and it isn't the leading graphics API. My point is that having their GPUs in both consoles this past round hasn't allowed AMD to control the direction of graphics technology. There is no reason to think that because their GPUs are in the next round that they will be able to control the direction of Ray Tracing. We are already seeing major developers adopt DXR in their engines and their games. And it will be the API for the next XBox. AMD is not going to be able to force Nvidia to scrap all their work on RTX.

As far as Freesync and Xbox One X, yes it works great with a compatible monitor, but again it isn't the reason for there success.  The majority of console gamers have their consoles hooked up to TVs. Which until very recently havent had the option for VRR of any kind. It was the monitor and PC market that set that direction.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 13, 2019)

Mephis said:


> Yes, Mantle became Vulkan, but it didn't set the world on fire and it isn't the leading graphics API.


There are more titles that support Vulkan than DX12 you know. 

As for RT, I think it's a fad and I'm hoping that the hype-train will run out of steam one of these days.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Sep 13, 2019)

efikkan said:


> I haven't seen any solid information whether the next iteration will be a refined Navi or their next generation. But if it turns out to be Navi 2x, as you mentioned, the scaling from 5700 to 5700 XT shows how little room there is, so a ~50% larger chip would have to be clocked lower than 5700 to retain decent efficiency. Whatever AMD launches in the Navi family, it will retain the same scaling characteristics. So for this reason, it matters if AMD launches another iteration of Navi or something which (hopefully) is a more efficient architecture. If AMD's lineup for 2020 consists of refreshed and possibly larger Navis, then it's not going to be good enough, which is why I have several times before stated that a second Navi in 2020 is just too late to the party.
> 
> Lastly, just to put it out there, a second iteration of Navi may very well be some sort of professional version too, but we have no details on that.



The slides Lisa Su presented earlier in July, showed Navi+ launching in 2020 on 7nm+ process node. Navi+ is supposedly next gen architecture, not a refinement of RDNA which is refinement of CCN. Would be disappointing if it's not Navi+ but Navi on 7nm+ with a few tweaks and higher clocks. Navi+ hopefully gets ray tracing support.

I'm torn on updating to any AMD this year. The X570 MB are pretty crap and I guess we won't see a all new designs until Zen 3 anyway. Navi is nice enough but want something more at 2080 levels. I'm torn  between updating my old Ivy Bridge 3570K and GTX 1070 system to R5 3600 and Navi 5700XT or waiting. R5 4600 + 6700 XT + B650 should be sweet (I'm just assuming names here).


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> There are more titles that support Vulkan than DX12 you know.
> 
> As for RT, I think it's a fad and I'm hoping that the hype-train will run out of steam one of these days.



Nvidia is forcing RT down our throats for forseeable future whether we like it or not, but I agree its a fad. I honestly think a lot of games that support it look better with it off. also i prefer high frames. this is another Physx scam


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 13, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> Nvidia is forcing RT down our throats for forseeable future whether we like it or not


nVidia shoves nothing down my throat. I vote with my wallet.  

Honestly, having the best performance is secondary to upholding some of my values.


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> There are more titles that support Vulkan than DX12 you know.
> 
> As for RT, I think it's a fad and I'm hoping that the hype-train will run out of steam one of these days.


It's still a drop in the roll-off of the gaming industry. Literally 99.99% of games on the market are DX, not vulkan.

I want AMD to succeed, but I'm not going to pretend they are gong to dominate a market thanks to consoles. Remember, many PC games favor Nvidia over AMD, despite being console ports, and Unreal Engine 4, one of the most widely used game engines on the market, favors Nvidia despite being optimized for consoles and used on a wide variety of AMD powered platforms. 

Anyone who is writing off Nvidia's raytracing because AMD's raytracing will be in the next gen consoles is a fool. Nvidia still dominates the high end of PC gaming and has much closer ties to PC developers. Just as having 8 cores didnt magically make all games capable of taking advantage of said cores (as shown in the performance delta between the 6 and 8 core ryzen chips) AMD RT being in consoles doesnt mean it will dominate PC gaming. That will only happen if AMD can also provide the high end hardware and support needed to optimize game engines for that tech. AMD has always struggled with that last part.


----------



## Mephis (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> There are more titles that support Vulkan than DX12 you know.
> 
> As for RT, I think it's a fad and I'm hoping that the hype-train will run out of steam one of these days.



I'll make you a gentleman's bet. Ray tracing is only going to get more prevelant, especially as gpu's get more powerful.

What we have now isn't full on ray tracing. It is a hybrid approach combining rasterazation and a little bit of ray tracing. There is no denying that full on ray tracing looks a lot better and more realistic than the best rasterazation has to offer. If you need any proof of that just look at the movies. All computer effects these day are done using ray tracing. I know we aren't close to that point yet, but if offloading processing to the cloud (Stadia and whatever MS is cooking up) then it does become a possibility in the future.


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 13, 2019)

yakk said:


> Besides possibly Apple, AMD will have the most 7nm design experience as the prices matures.  In many ways probably more than Apple as they use 7nm for both CPU & GPU, exciting times ahead!


Pretty sure Apple has plenty of experience with CPUs/GPUs on TSMC's 7nm process with the A12 SoC, and now the recently announced A13. Theres a high chance the A13 is fabbed on the 7nm+.


----------



## FinneousPJ (Sep 13, 2019)

Wow, AMD only seems to be gaining momentum. I think I'll upgrade CPU & GPU next year, can't wait for reviews!


----------



## 1d10t (Sep 13, 2019)

efikkan said:


> Where is your logical reasoning here? So just because Nvidia isn't 100% perfect, we can ignore all problems from AMD? This sort of argumentation is childish.
> And if you actually read my whole post, you would also see; Even Nvidia's drivers is not perfect, so there is plenty of room for improvement.
> Turing launched with at least 3-4 bugs which were quickly fixed, which is a lot from Nvidia, and is probably the "worst driver launch" they've done in many years, and I've criticized it plenty for that reason. But at least their drivers are stable once the initial bugs are ironed out.



Do I have to highlighted that again? 



efikkan said:


> *Yes, AMD's driver quality is nowhere close to Nvidia's unfortunately*.





efikkan said:


> A few cards being DoA, and a failure rate of 2-5% is completely normal, and *Turing is below that. Most of the reported problems were later dismissed as driver bugs* (which were also fixed), and only a few cards were actually defective.



Claiming that one particular driver is so bad while other company driver made your card dead 



Particle said:


> Luck of the draw.  Bad cards do happen.
> AMD/ATI cards I've had that died or quit working properly:
> Radeon 9590 (dead)
> Radeon X800 (dead)
> ...



Read my previous post mate, someone made a bold claim bad driver causing card to be dud 



lynx29 said:


> from what i understand it was only 1-3% of all users who got bad cards, we don't really have any official data on how many RTX users got screwed over. also never had any experience with the RTX cards so again out of my data set... sorry you don't understand basic logic. :/



I have nothing to say, other member are already stating my point 
If you claimed had yearly experience, why don't you use your knowledge to sort thing out?


----------



## Emu (Sep 13, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.



Nvidia likes to break their drivers every so often.  There has been quite a few times in the 12 months or so that I have owned my 2080 ti that I have had to skip driver version because they crash in certain games.  Let's also not forget the drivers that actually broke Windows completely earlier this year either.


----------



## efikkan (Sep 13, 2019)

Minus Infinity said:


> The slides Lisa Su presented earlier in July, showed Navi+ launching in 2020 on 7nm+ process node. Navi+ is supposedly next gen architecture, not a refinement of RDNA which is refinement of CCN. Would be disappointing if it's not Navi+ but Navi on 7nm+ with a few tweaks and higher clocks.


Anything Navi will not be a new architecture, if it's a new architecture it will get a different name.
I think Lisa Su as usual is intentionally vague.



Minus Infinity said:


> Navi+ hopefully gets ray tracing support.


Navi was not designed for ray tracing. Remenber that Navi was _supposed_ to launch early 2018, even before Turing. If a Navi family chip shows up with some kind of ray tracing support, it will be something primitive thrown in relatively late in the design process, and nothing integrated like Turing.



Minus Infinity said:


> I'm torn on updating to any AMD this year. The X570 MB are pretty crap and I guess we won't see a all new designs until Zen 3 anyway. Navi is nice enough but want something more at 2080 levels. I'm torn  between updating my old Ivy Bridge 3570K and GTX 1070 system to R5 3600 and Navi 5700XT or waiting. R5 4600 + 6700 XT + B650 should be sweet (I'm just assuming names here).


If your use case is primarily gaming, I suggest to wait one more cycle, and when you upgrade you also buy something one tier up so it lasts longer. I generally recommend upgrading when you "need" more performance, and there is something significantly better available.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 13, 2019)

efikkan said:


> Navi was not designed for ray tracing. Remenber that Navi was _supposed_ to launch early 2018, even before Turing. If a Navi family chip shows up with some kind of ray tracing support, it will be something primitive thrown in relatively late in the design process, and nothing integrated like Turing.


I'm not convinced that dedicated circuitry for RT is necessary to do RT well, even if that's the route nVidia went. The big issue I see with dedicated circuitry is that with most loads, that hardware is going to be inactive which is a terrible waste of die space IMHO, even more when you consider how big of a die the 2080 Ti is as 754 mm² is a huge chip.


----------



## efikkan (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> I'm not convinced that dedicated circuitry for RT is necessary to do RT well, even if that's the route nVidia went. The big issue I see with dedicated circuitry is that with most loads, that hardware is going to be inactive which is a terrible waste of die space IMHO, even more when you consider how big of a die the 2080 Ti is as 754 mm² is a huge chip.


It depends on what degree of ray tracing you want to use. If you only want soft lighting and shadows (diffuse lighting), and can make do with few ray samples (like ~2 per 8x8 pixels or so), then yes, even current GPUs can do a decent job with OpenCL, CUDA etc. But if you want sharp reflections(specular lighting) to look good, then you need to spend 50x the performance to get a decent result, which is something even RTX can't truly do yet.

And BTW, unlike what a certain YouTuber claim, the rest of the GPU will not idle when tracing rays, it's not like one part is used for legacy games and one part for ray tracing. The RT cores will only accelerate the tracing of the rays, not give you a finished picture by themselves. The SMs will be active all the time, plus TMUs etc. too.


----------



## bug (Sep 13, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> I'm not convinced that dedicated circuitry for RT is necessary to do RT well, even if that's the route nVidia went. The big issue I see with dedicated circuitry is that with most loads, that hardware is going to be inactive which is a terrible waste of die space IMHO, even more when you consider how big of a die the 2080 Ti is as 754 mm² is a huge chip.


You're probably not convinced we need a GPU for video either and shudder at the thought of the resources that go unused while browsing the Internet 

Edit: Just to be clear, as years go by, Turing will surely go down in history as a crude RTRT implementation. That much is certain. But since no hardware we have now is particularly suited to what these cores do (BVH handling), it's is very possible their tasks cannot simply be folded onto traditional (or even enhanced) shaders, so the need for dedicated hardware will remain.


----------



## Th3pwn3r (Sep 13, 2019)

Turmania said:


> How did you lot turned this into Amd/Nvidia debate?!?  I have not bought an AMD product for half a decade but they have finally gotten their act together.They are not ahead but finally caught up against their competition.Yes, in order to do so they spent their die shrink card whilst others still have it to use at will. But that is an issue for the future.look at now! Things are great we got competition.i5 9600k vs ryzen5 3600x. Now it's hard to choose.in the past it was no brainer.should you buy a 300 usd gtx 1660ti or for 40usd extra get rx 5700 which is almost 50% better performance for a little bit extra. These are good days, competition is great for us. Enjoy it.



They have closed the gap but they definitely haven't caught up. Nvidia still has the fastest cards by a good clip.


----------



## kapone32 (Sep 13, 2019)

If everything goes as expected the next Navi (I am sure that no one thought NAVI would beat the Vega 64) will be faster than the current iteration and than can be nothing if not good. In terms of Zen3 those chips will probably have a 5GHZ boost and a base clock somewhere in the 4.4 to 4.5 GHZ base. This is all based on what we have already seen from AMD in terms of improvement from one step to the next.


----------



## r9 (Sep 13, 2019)

bug said:


> It's not as different as you think.
> Back then AMD had Athlon first (that brought the IPC fight to Intel). Then they had AthlonXP (dreamy overclocking). Then Athlon64 came (64bit and integrated memory controller). And then we had Athlon64 X2 (*real multicore*).
> So they did have an engineering roadmap back then, too. They just left marketing and sales to chance.


Funny you should mention the real mutlicore Athlon64 X2 because this time around AMD brought the fight to Intel with a multi-die cpu .
Intel have a tough times ahead of them, just being able to "print" 10nm/7nm CPUs it's half of the problem the other half is either getting them to clock 5GHz or introduce better much better architecture to compensate for lower clocks while the technology is up to speed.
IMO I Ryzen 2 is a letdown in my eyes clockwise I didn't believe the 5GHz rumors but I was expecting at least 4.6GHz.
But I guess if people are happy with what Ryzen 2 offers it leaves a lot of room for improvement for Ryzen 3.


----------



## medi01 (Sep 13, 2019)

Mephis said:


> ...being in the consoles didn't help AMD set the direction for graphic features or performance at all.


Consoles set baseline for game developers. I don't know if you are from the same planet as I am.



Mephis said:


> It was all about the fact that GSync modules added a couple of hundred dollars to monitors.


Sure, Joh, that chip price was so high because it was really really so expensive to manufacture and not because someone is really really greedy.

AMD got its own version of Variable Refresh Rate in DisplayPort and HDMI standards. End of story.


----------



## Minus Infinity (Sep 14, 2019)

efikkan said:


> Anything Navi will not be a new architecture, if it's a new architecture it will get a different name.
> I think Lisa Su as usual is intentionally vague.
> 
> 
> ...



It's AMD's own naming, Navi+ is not the same as Navi. Navi was claiming to be all new architecture, but that's BS, it's an evolution of CCN. Navi+ is supposed to be clean slate architecture. Now I haven't heard them refute that, even if it doesn't have ray tracing support. Mavi won't compete very well against Ampere IMO, so Navi+ better be more than a refresh with some tweak and faster memory and clocks.


----------



## bug (Sep 14, 2019)

medi01 said:


> Consoles set baseline for game developers. I don't know if you are from the same planet as I am.


Most of us aren't. But here we are, all on the same forum...


----------



## voltage (Sep 14, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.



at least you are one person besides myself that didn't get sucked into the amd hype train.


----------



## bug (Sep 14, 2019)

voltage said:


> at least you are one person besides myself that didn't get sucked into the amd hype train.


It's not a hype train, AMD works for many people.


----------



## efikkan (Sep 14, 2019)

Minus Infinity said:


> It's AMD's own naming, Navi+ is not the same as Navi. Navi was claiming to be all new architecture, but that's BS, it's an evolution of CCN. Navi+ is supposed to be clean slate architecture. Now I haven't heard them refute that, even if it doesn't have ray tracing support. Mavi won't compete very well against Ampere IMO, so Navi+ better be more than a refresh with some tweak and faster memory and clocks.


AMD can surely name things whatever they want, but your claim of "Navi+" being a different architecture than "Navi" sounds unlikely to me. What PR people refers to as a "new architecture" is fluid to begin with, but it makes no sense that different architectures will get the same name. I find it more likely that they will try to rebrand a Navi refresh as "new" when it's really not.

I haven't seen any confirmation about which chip configurations and market segments AMD plan to target. But it has been a long time since we've seen a fresh top-to-bottom lineup from AMD.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 14, 2019)

bug said:


> You're probably not convinced we need a GPU for video either and shudder at the thought of the resources that go unused while browsing the Internet


People actually watch video.


----------



## bug (Sep 14, 2019)

Aquinus said:


> People actually watch video.


The implication being that put the GPU to good use? Or?


----------



## TheGreatPascalian (Sep 15, 2019)

"The two will be based on 7 nm+ , which is AMD-speak for the 7 nanometer EUV silicon fabrication process at TSMC "
Says who actually ? I have never seen AMD claim something about EUV, there is also better DUV version for 2020 which is called 7nm+ as well.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 15, 2019)

bug said:


> The implication being that put the GPU to good use? Or?


The point being that people actually watch video. In fact I would say that most normal users probably watch more video than even using their GPU for rendering (maybe not for the users here at TPU, but I wouldn't call you and I "normal users.") It's useful because people actually use it for something they do; watch videos. If nVidia didn't attempt to shove RT down people's throats, it's usage would be practically non-existent. Even now its adoption is a fraction of people who play games which means that in general, it's usage is minimal. Hardware video decoding probably gets more usage overall than rendering hardware unless you're a gamer.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 15, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug  AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.



Really? Provide sources instead of a blanket statement


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 15, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Really? Provide sources instead of a blanket statement


(Not targeted at you @eidairaman1)
The way Nvidia's driver releases have been going not counting the patched out security exploits recently. I wouldn't be fanboying for Nvidia's driver quality over AMD.  The constant hot fixes that kept popping up after a whql/beta driver release don't exactly paint a rosy picture for me.


----------



## bug (Sep 15, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> (Not targeted at you @eidairaman1)
> The way Nvidia's driver releases have been going not counting the patched out security exploits recently. I wouldn't be fanboying for Nvidia's driver quality over AMD.  The constant hot fixes that kept popping up after a whql/beta driver release don't exactly paint a rosy picture for me.


And yet, you're wrong. Yes, there are issues, but they're confined to very recently released titles. For everything that's been out for more than 6 months, there are very few issues and even those tend to be triggered by SLI or a particular resolution. Could Nvidia do better? Probably. Are the drivers interfering with your gaming experience? Only if you play a lot of titles on day 1.


----------



## biffzinker (Sep 15, 2019)

bug said:


> Yes, there are issues, but they're confined to very recently released titles.


Oh really?


			
				Nvidia Customer Help said:
			
		

> GeForce Hotfix display driver version 431.68 is based on our latest Game Ready Driver 431.60. This Hotfix driver addresses the following:
> Mouse cursor may render incorrectly after exiting a game​


​


			
				Nvidia Customer Service said:
			
		

> GeForce Hotfix display driver version 430.97 is based on our latest Game Ready Driver 430.86.  This Hotfix driver addresses the following:
> 
> Forza Horizon 4: Game may crash when driving through tunnels​


​


			
				Nivida Customer Help said:
			
		

> GeForce Hotfix display driver version 430.53 is based on our latest Game Ready Driver 430.39.  This Hotfix driver addresses the following
> Fixes higher CPU usage by NVDisplay.Container.exe introduced in 430.39 driver​3DMark Time Spy: Flickering observed when benchmark is launched​BeamNG: Application crashes when game is launched​
> 
> Shadow of the Tomb Raider: Freezes when launched in SLI mode
> Desktop flickers when videos are played back on a secondary monitor











						NVIDIA Rushes Out GeForce Hotfix 430.97 Driver
					

NVIDIA Friday released the GeForce Hotfix 430.97 driver. Hotfix drivers are released when NVIDIA needs to address a limited number of glaring issues with a recently released driver, in this case, the 430.86 WHQL and 430.64 WHQL. Released only for Windows 10, the drivers fix a game crash noticed...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 15, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Really? Provide sources instead of a blanket statement



I did provide a source in that exact quote... basically every single youtube review of Navi from LinusTechTips to Gamersnexus, all mention terrible drivers and crashing. lol  bye now



biffzinker said:


> (Not targeted at you @eidairaman1)
> The way Nvidia's driver releases have been going not counting the patched out security exploits recently. I wouldn't be fanboying for Nvidia's driver quality over AMD.  The constant hot fixes that kept popping up after a whql/beta driver release don't exactly paint a rosy picture for me.



hotfixes that are only affecting a small amount of the community, not the entire community. has nothing to do with fanboyism. as an owner of 6950, 7970, and AGP amd gpu's. i'd love to go back to AMD eventually, but I am waiting one more year for drivers to mature.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Sep 16, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> I did provide a source in that exact quote... basically every single youtube review of Navi from LinusTechTips to Gamersnexus, all mention terrible drivers and crashing. lol  bye now
> 
> 
> 
> hotfixes that are only affecting a small amount of the community, not the entire community. has nothing to do with fanboyism. as an owner of 6950, 7970, and AGP amd gpu's. i'd love to go back to AMD eventually, but I am waiting one more year for drivers to mature.



So where are the sources?


----------



## bug (Sep 16, 2019)

biffzinker said:


> Oh really?
> 
> ​
> ​
> ...


Great, but did you see the "may" in there? There are some specific conditions to be met before any of those bugs are triggered.
Conversely, I'm not saying every single older title is flawless on Nvidia hardware and drivers. But the vast majority of them are.


----------



## mahoney (Sep 16, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> This is turning up to be a better fight than the old Athlon 64 va Pentium 4. Good times ahead.


Has it really? AMD back then completely destroyed Intel when it came to gaming though it didn't last long


----------



## GoldenX (Sep 16, 2019)

mahoney said:


> Has it really? AMD back then completely destroyed Intel when it came to gaming though it didn't last long


Did AMD defeat Intel on the server/workstation space back then?
The only CPU with a clear advantage right now over Zen 2 is the 9900K/KS, and maybe one of the Celerons or Pentium Golds.


----------



## TheGreatPascalian (Sep 18, 2019)

GoldenX said:


> Did AMD defeat Intel on the server/workstation space back then?
> The only CPU with a clear advantage right now over Zen 2 is the 9900K/KS, and maybe one of the Celerons or Pentium Golds.


Or any other all core 5ghz coffee lake from the past 2 years. They are all same CPUs lol no need for 9900K/KS. inb4 someone tells me that they need exactly this and that MT perf.


----------



## ChaoticNeutral (Sep 21, 2019)

Xaled said:


> İf youve got 80 % of the market and you sell your products with double the price, you have to make drivers with 0 issues. it is not optional


So you mean because AMD has fewer market share and cheaper product we should expect less from them?


----------



## BorgOvermind (Nov 11, 2019)

efikkan said:


> Yes, AMD's driver quality is nowhere close to Nvidia's unfortunately.


On what planet ?
nV has been the uncontested champion of BSODs due to bad drivers since Vista era.

I have a 1070 and must use 3 different drivers for 3 different new games, otherwise they won't start and an additional older driver for everything else. But since this is a situation since the GeForce 2 cards were 1st out, I have no expectations and no demands from them.


----------



## bug (Nov 11, 2019)

BorgOvermind said:


> On what planet ?
> nV has been the uncontested champion of BSODs due to bad drivers since Vista era.
> 
> I have a 1070 and must use 3 different drivers for 3 different new games, otherwise they won't start and an additional older driver for everything else. But since this is a situation since the GeForce 2 cards were 1st out, I have no expectations and no demands from them.


Care to list those 3 games, please?


----------



## eidairaman1 (Nov 11, 2019)

BorgOvermind said:


> On what planet ?
> nV has been the uncontested champion of BSODs due to bad drivers since Vista era.
> 
> I have a 1070 and must use 3 different drivers for 3 different new games, otherwise they won't start and an additional older driver for everything else. But since this is a situation since the GeForce 2 cards were 1st out, I have no expectations and no demands from them.



Remember Detonator drivers which would detonate the card


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## Anymal (Nov 11, 2019)

Since 2013 no BSOD or any problem with gtx 670.


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## mjsheen (Dec 5, 2019)

lynx29 said:


> if I can't launch any and every game I want with 0 issues... not going to bother. I hope they can pull it off.


Some people seem to defend the Red out of wariness of the price sharking Green. See, AMD had historical driver issues since it was ATI for a couple of decades now. It had issues when it was as big as the Green. It still has driver issue in my non gaming laptop for normal usage. So there is no excuse for it, being smaller and all. I cannot agree more to this comment. Maybe Lisa can pull it off. I really hope she does.


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## eidairaman1 (Dec 5, 2019)

mjsheen said:


> Some people seem to defend the Red out of wariness of the price sharking Green. See, AMD had historical driver issues since it was ATI for a couple of decades now. It had issues when it was as big as the Green. It still has driver issue in my non gaming laptop for normal usage. So there is no excuse for it, being smaller and all. I cannot agree more to this comment. Maybe Lisa can pull it off. I really hope she does.


Nvidia had detonator which burned up cards, so Nvidia has plenty more history of drivers being buggy.


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## bug (Dec 5, 2019)

eidairaman1 said:


> Nvidia had detonator which burned up cards, so Nvidia has plenty more history of drivers being buggy.


Never head of that before (drivers causing burned cards), but assuming it's true, it's just one mishap. It doesn't translate into a "history of drivers being buggy".


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## BorgOvermind (Dec 27, 2019)

@bug: https://www.techspot.com/news/38131-nvidia-19675-gpu-driver-burning-up-graphics-cards.html

Any they do have history.  Remember Vista as example ?


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## bug (Dec 27, 2019)

BorgOvermind said:


> @bug: https://www.techspot.com/news/38131-nvidia-19675-gpu-driver-burning-up-graphics-cards.html


No mention of a burned card except in the title. The article just says they were running hot.


BorgOvermind said:


> Any they do have history.  Remember Vista as example ?


Vista introduced WDDM, everybody has driver issues back then. Apparently WDDM was finalized very shortly before Vista's relese (like 3 months before, iirc) and many manufacturers were able to deliver on time with good quality.


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