# EVGA Announces Cancelation of NVIDIA Next-gen Graphics Cards Plans, Officially Terminates NVIDIA Partnership



## VSG (Sep 16, 2022)

Towards the latter half of August, multiple EVGA employees involved in technical marketing and engineering had let us know privately that they were leaving the company for other ventures. When pushed further, several hinted towards some decisions being made by EVGA's management, including CEO Andrew Han, that would jeopardize their future. Some even went far enough to say they would share more in a few weeks time about how they felt exactly about their time there, the various issues that kept them from doing their best, and also that at least a couple of ex-employees were let go. TechPowerUp was doing due diligence in collecting the facts while keeping emotions aside from contacts who were understandably not in the best of moods, and one thing common across the board was there was something major coming up dealing with the EVGA GPU product line.

Today EVGA decided to throw a massive curve ball by formally announcing the company is canceling its plans to carry the next generation of graphics cards. Given EVGA's revenue sheets point to nearly 80% contribution from being an NVIDIA add-in card partner, this effectively also means an end to a long partnership with NVIDIA. The company's CEO confirmed as much to a few media channels citing poor margins and a challenging, stressful relationship that was no longer fruitful. There are no plans for EVGA to partner with AMD or Intel at this time when it comes to graphics cards and the company stressed they will continue to sell and support current-gen GPUs having retained enough units for RMA purposes too.



 



Jon Peddie Research also speculates EVGA is going to shift its priorities towards power supplies and motherboards instead that allow for higher margins and a more uniform, predictable sales pattern. Time will tell how EVGA, and indeed NVIDIA too who now has to re-distribute its GPU allocation among other partners and retail solutions, will come out of this split. It certainly does not seem to be an amicable one and we do not expect the partnership to resume anytime soon. This also affects companies who were no doubt planning on accessories for EVGA-branded GPUs, such as custom watercooling blocks from the usual suspects such as EKWB, Alphacool, and Bitspower.



 

*What About Existing Customers*
All existing owners of EVGA graphics cards will remain fully covered by warranties, including full replacements if needed. The company has withheld inventory of EVGA graphics cards from retailers (and will probably recall some perfectly-functional cards), so it has buffer stock to serve existing customers in need of total replacements or RMA.

*What EVGA's Future Looks Like*
EVGA CEO Andrew Han stated that the company has no plans as of now to partner with another GPU manufacturer like AMD or Intel, and the exit from the graphics card business will trigger an "imminent downsizing" of the company (to shed employees associated with the graphics card business). This could also be a subtle hint to AMD and Intel that if they're looking to work with EVGA, they should express interest right now.

Graphics cards made up over three-quarters of EVGA's revenue, and so we're not sure what the company could do next. If one were to speculate, the company could increase its presence in the prebuilt notebook and gaming peripherals businesses, and probably even ride the growth-cycle in the power-supply market with ATX 3.0 and PCIe Gen 5. Next-generation high-end graphics cards are expected to trigger upgrades among those with PSUs 4 years or older, as older PSUs, particularly mainstream ones, will find it hard to deal with the power excursions (spikes) of high-end PCIe Gen 5 graphics cards. The company could also retain its PCB engineering team to further develop its motherboard business. But all these are just speculation. Unless EVGA significantly invests in its other businesses, it's done.

*How does this affect NVIDIA in the North American market?*
EVGA was particularly popular in the North American market, among DIY PC enthusiasts. Other NVIDIA partners such as ASUS, could attempt to fill its void, but the distinct industrial design of EVGA will be lost, as would features such as iCX; and EVGA-exclusive customer programs such as trade-in upgrades. NVIDIA may also attempt to bring in new partners to the North American market to fill EVGA's void, such as GALAX (Galaxy), or Colorful, which are both major graphics card OEMs in the Chinese market. It will now fall on them to match the design and quality standards EVGA established. EVGA's exit will have minimal impact on NVIDIA's bottom-line, as those in the market for a GeForce graphics card will ultimately buy one from whichever brand.

NVIDIA's first reaction to this development is as follows: 





> "We've had a great partnership with EVGA over the years and will continue to support them on our current generation of products. We wish Andrew and our friends at EVGA all the best."



EVGA's full statement is as follows: 





			
				EVGA CEO Andrew Han said:
			
		

> EVGA has terminated its relationship with NVIDIA. EVGA will no longer be manufacturing video cards of any type, citing a souring relationship with NVIDIA as the cause (among other reasons that were minimized). EVGA will not be exploring relationships with AMD or Intel at this time, and the company will be downsizing imminently as it exits the video card market. Customers will still be covered by EVGA policies, but EVGA will no longer make RTX or other video cards. The company already made, 20 EVT samples of EVGA RTX 4090 FTW3 cards, but will not be moving to production and has killed all active projects pertaining to cards, including KINGPIN cards.



According to JPR, EVGA was the best-selling NVIDIA AIB in the US market, with a market-share of nearly 40%. NVIDIA would have lead its board partners to take its place.

*Update Sep 21st*: KINGPIN, a long time associate of EVGA, behind some of their fastest boutique graphics cards and motherboards, posted a note of gratitude for all the fans of EVGA + KINGPIN, and stated that KINGPIN Hardware may continue in some form.



> I'm thankful for all the industry friends, old colleagues, etc. that reached out. It means a lot and I appreciate it. The news isn't received well ofc, and I'm mostly sorry for the fans and people that are passionate for our brand and everything that we have done here over the years at EVGA. If the KP hardware is meant to continue on in one way or another, I'm sure that it will . The EVGA and PC hardware enthusiast community have been great to me and my teams here over the years, THANK YOU.



*Update Sep 21st*: Jensen Huang responded to a question about his thoughts on EVGA in a Q&A session today: 


			
				Jensen Huang said:
			
		

> You know, Andrew (EVGA CEO) wanted to wind down the business, and he's wanted to do that for a couple of years. Andrew and EVGA were, are great partners and we're great partners, and I'm sad to see them leave the market. But, he's got other plans and he's been thinking about it for several years, so I guess that's about it. The market has a lot of great players and it will be served well after EVGA, but I'll always miss them, they were an important part of our history, Andrew is a great friend. I think that it was just time for him to go do something else."



*View at TechPowerUp Main Site* | Source


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## Denver (Sep 16, 2022)

Time to come to the red and efficient side of the force, EVGA.


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## Fluffmeister (Sep 16, 2022)

This is epic dummy out of the pram stuff, look forward to all the juicy details coming out.


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## v12dock (Sep 16, 2022)

They are a massive player in video cards with decades of experience. I can’t see them quitting that market entirely and of course they won’t announce any potential future partnerships in talks.


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## Dirt Chip (Sep 16, 2022)

Status: offline.
Out to get some popcorn.


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## 64K (Sep 16, 2022)

This news was just totally unexpected and came right out of the blue for me.


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## Space Lynx (Sep 16, 2022)

64K said:


> This news was just totally unexpected and came right out of the blue for me.



It's really insane news, that's why. EVGA has a loyal and large fanbase, their sells were pretty much guaranteed with each generation of launch.

In a free will capitalist market, it makes no sense. Very odd.


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## mb194dc (Sep 16, 2022)

It's the canary in the global gpu market mine...

Crazy few years with GPU Crypto, Covid boom and now the bust. With Nvidia sitting on mountains of inventory and undercutting AIB partners to shift some of it.


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## KarymidoN (Sep 16, 2022)

I expected this after Ngreedia announced Founders edition with the same Price as MSRP, its basically murdering their partners...
EGVA announced they will not go AMD too, they're done with GPU's, wich is SAD.
Basically EVGA is PSU's and peripherals now, wich have a better profit margin btw, so lets go EVGA.


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## Dragokar (Sep 16, 2022)

Maybe, only maybe NV needs more yay-sayers.


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## Kohl Baas (Sep 16, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> It's really insane news, that's why. EVGA has a loyal and large fanbase, their sells were pretty much guaranteed with each generation of launch.
> 
> In a free will capitalist market, it makes no sense. Very odd.


Sales alone worth nothing if you can't hit the margine...


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## Fluffmeister (Sep 16, 2022)

Dragokar said:


> Maybe, only maybe NV needs more yay-sayers.



They obviously don't need anymore AIB's.
Too soon?


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## PerfectWave (Sep 16, 2022)

Same problem when XFX went AMD?


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## Space Lynx (Sep 16, 2022)

Maybe EVGA will do more motherboards now? I would welcome that. I like that they do motherboards differently, and they seem to be of high quality the few they have done.


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## Ravenmaster (Sep 16, 2022)

Well shit... EVGA was my favourite GPU/Motherboard manufacturer


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## Dirt Chip (Sep 16, 2022)

BFG all over again...


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## neatfeatguy (Sep 16, 2022)

I wonder if EVGA caught wind of something from Nvidia and didn't like where things are heading so they decided to walk away?



Dirt Chip said:


> BFG all over again...




BFG just up and closed doors completely, at least EVGA is still going to build motherboards and PSUs. I've never had any issues with any of their products before; GPUs, MB or PSUs


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## Voodoo Rufus (Sep 16, 2022)

I've bought EVGA cards for 15 years now. Steady customer and their reliability and customer service has been top notch. 

I'm guessing they may go AMD when the dust settles down a bit.


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## TheinsanegamerN (Sep 16, 2022)

It smells awfully fishy. One of the big complaints is "the complexity of modern GPUs" which is RICH coming from the guy who greenlit the K|ingp|n lineup. And you could just.....not make the 4090/4080? And he cant make any money? Wouldnt we have heard about this from smaller AIBs by now?

You dont just walk away from what comprises 80% of your gross revenue like this, unless your company has been mismanaged into the ground and there is just no way you can keep going on without major downsizing. 

I suppose Asus and MSI are celebrating with champagne right now, nvidia make sup the lions share of GPUs out there and they now get to split the market along with gigabyte.


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## Dirt Chip (Sep 16, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> I wonder if EVGA caught wind of something from Nvidia and didn't like where things are heading so they decided to walk away?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was mant BFG lifetime warranty as EVGA step up doctrine.


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## murr (Sep 16, 2022)

Guess they're going to stick with just doing power supplies and motherboards.


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## Fluffmeister (Sep 16, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> BFG all over again...



Ah BFG, been there, done that... got the T-shirt (still):


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## Anymal (Sep 16, 2022)

Their graphics cards were constantly lagging behind Msi and Asus solutions, sometimes even behind Gigabyte and Palit.


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## Voodoo Rufus (Sep 16, 2022)

Problem is, power supplies can last a user 10 years or more. Probably low margins as well.

Their motherboard line up isn't very big. Unless they plan to expand it, it'll be limited to a niche market of the heavy overclockers.


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## Dragokar (Sep 16, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> I wonder if EVGA caught wind of something from Nvidia and didn't like where things are heading so they decided to walk away?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The PSUs are okay and sell, but the boards are sitting in the shelves like dead ducks. I really doubt they can survive on PSUs and will close down if they don't partner with AMD or Intel.


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## Anymal (Sep 16, 2022)

Voodoo Rufus said:


> I've bought EVGA cards for 15 years now. Steady customer and their reliability and customer service has been top notch.
> 
> I'm guessing they may go AMD when the dust settles down a bit.


You said reliability?


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## igralec84 (Sep 16, 2022)

My 3080 Ti has extended warranty until 2026. Will i get a Radeon 9950XT in 2025 if it dies? 

EDIT: guess not lol


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## Tomorrow (Sep 16, 2022)

Suprising. Also their statement of not downsizing and not closing doors is biazarre considering they are losing 80% of their revenue.
This better not be a blackmail situation where EVGA puts public pressure on Nvidia to get preferential treatment to continue operating.
The fact that they flat out deny going to AMD or Intel kinda hints at that.
Personally if find it stupid not to go AMD atleast.

Tho their GPU quality has suffered on 10, 20 and 30 series trough various issues that other AIB's did not have or did not have to the same degree:
10 series 1080 thermal pad issues.
20 series 2080 Ti space invaders.
30 series power draw issues in New World etc.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 16, 2022)

Here is a guess.  The has to do with GPU prices since they are crashing.



EVGA payed higher base prices to Nvidia during the shortage.
As GPU prices continue to drop, EVGA card stock is worth less than when they originally paid to fill the warehouses during the shortage.
Nvidia will not give EVGA a break on the cards they do have in stock.
Without the _adjustment_ from Nvidia, EVGA will lose their ass on current stock.
Ngreddia said tough luck, thats the price of doing business.
EVGA now pissed off brings us here.


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## MentalAcetylide (Sep 16, 2022)

Damn, wasn't expecting this. I'm really enjoying their Kingpin 3090 card & its cooling capability. Well, I'm guessing one of three things can happen. 
#1. EVGA had something planned for a while now to mitigate this exiting of the GPU market and they will succeed if they play their cards(no pun intended) right.
#2. EVGA will steadily decline into mediocrity, like 3DFX(remember their voodoo cards?), and be bought out by someone else or dissipate into nothingness.
#3. Their CEO is making a big mistake & ends up getting replaced because of unhappy shareholders in the company?

Personally, I think they're making a big mistake doing this right now and their employees are going to end up getting the crappy end of the stick. They like to say they're going to take care of their employees, but that's usually corporate talk meaning they will give them a piece of candy on the way through the door of unemployment.


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## ixi (Sep 16, 2022)

EVGA gpu app still in alfa or beta? 

Sad to see big player go, at least for now. AMD and Intel to come?


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## RedBear (Sep 16, 2022)

Voodoo Rufus said:


> Problem is, power supplies can last a user 10 years or more. Probably low margins as well.


Well, PSUs are going to last less time now, if each generation the power requirements will increase significantly and PCI-SIG says that adapters will catch fire. They can thank Nvidia for that. 

EVGA aside, it's going to be interesting to find out in the next months whether this is a systemic crisis or it's just EVGA mishandling something and making up excuses. Given the size of EVGA I would favour the former option, but who knows.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 16, 2022)

Steve pumped out a video on this.


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## taka (Sep 16, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> BFG all over again...


Hey i loved my BFG cards and always wonder what happened to them........





That was my favorite.


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## RandallFlagg (Sep 16, 2022)

Hmm...

-EVGA had 40% of the North American GPU AIB market.  
-Well-founded rumor was that 4000 series GPUs have been sitting in warehouses since early August, waiting for Nvidia to officially release
-Well-founded rumor also had that the 4070 was going to have an MSRP of $599, a $100 increase over the MSRP of the 3070
-Crypto market collapse just went into overdrive with some kind of consolidation of Eth mining along with hefty electricity inflation (not just in Europe, but mostly there) that apparently has made mining unprofitable on all but the most efficient GPUs (ironically, mostly AMDs like the 6600) - this will likely lead to an truly massive glut on 2nd hand market in short order (days)
-Gaming market collapsed by > 20% last quarter, so it is unlikely to absorb the extra cards

It kind of sounds to me like Nvidia may not have been willing to lower prices on new GPUs, nor help discount old GPUs.  

All these things together would make a perfect storm sort of scenario where a company like EVGA simply cannot make a profit selling these cards.


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## Hanger (Sep 16, 2022)

EK/Alphacool: "THANK GOD! That's one less brand we have to make waterblocks for."


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## ModEl4 (Sep 16, 2022)

Sad, I hope they partner up with AMD or Intel in the future.
Another possible additional reason is that they made some money in the previous 2 years due to the price inflation in the GPU market and maybe now they concluded that they don't want to use from that capital, bleeding it essentially to further fund the difficult GPU business period that we are entering.


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## MentalAcetylide (Sep 16, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Hmm...
> 
> -EVGA had 40% of the North American GPU AIB market.
> -Well-founded rumor was that 4000 series GPUs have been sitting in warehouses since early August, waiting for Nvidia to officially release
> ...


Its beginning to sound like a case of a large multi-billion dollar company just wanting to shit on its partners in order to keep profits up for its share holders. Nevertheless, I still think EVGA might be making a mistake. The fact of the matter is their cards are more expensive because they're taking something that NVidia manufactures & making it better in regards to performance & cooling. NVidia is just being an obtuse business "partner" and doesn't want to have anything to do with shouldering any of that cost. As a result, EVGA won't be able to profit enough from it in the current economic situation.


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## openbox1980 (Sep 16, 2022)

Tomorrow said:


> Suprising. Also their statement of not downsizing and not closing doors is biazarre considering they are losing 80% of their revenue.
> This better not be a blackmail situation where EVGA puts public pressure on Nvidia to get preferential treatment to continue operating.
> The fact that they flat out deny going to AMD or Intel kinda hints at that.
> Personally if find it stupid not to go AMD atleast.
> ...


When I was selling computer parts, the EVGA 2080ti black edition was the worst. I had so many returns on that model.


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## R-T-B (Sep 16, 2022)

Voodoo Rufus said:


> Unless they plan to expand it


Recent Ryzen mobo launch suddenly makes more sense.



RandallFlagg said:


> some kind of consolidation of Eth mining


You mean it utterly ending by going Proof of Stake?



openbox1980 said:


> When I was selling computer parts, the EVGA 2080ti black edition was the worst. I had so many returns on that model.


It's basically the reference board with a third party cooler, no?



RedBear said:


> Well, PSUs are going to last less time now, if each generation the power requirements will increase significantly and PCI-SIG says that adapters will catch fire.


That's not really what the notice says at all.  See @jonnyGURU 's postings on this point.


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## freeagent (Sep 16, 2022)

Wow, never had a problem with their cards! Very sad to see them go! Tough sell on their mobos for me though.. had their 680i and it could barely run a Q6600 at stock. I know that was a long time ago, but I paid over 300 for that board way back when, and that was a lot of money. I have a hard time letting go


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## regs (Sep 16, 2022)

100% of the card that used to be for years was a poor margin?


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## shovenose (Sep 16, 2022)

I really would love it if they’d partner with Intel Arc. They need a strong AIB partner.


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## RedBear (Sep 16, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> That's not really what the notice says at all.  See @jonnyGURU 's postings on this point.


This one? Even after reading it, I'm still left wondering: what does it say then?


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## ModEl4 (Sep 16, 2022)

EVGA has terminated its relationship with NVIDIA. EVGA will no longer be manufacturing video cards of any type, citing a souring relationship with NVIDIA as the cause (among other reasons that were minimized). EVGA will not be exploring relationships with AMD or Intel *at this time*, and the company will be *downsizing imminently* as it exits the video card market. Customers will still be covered by EVGA policies, but EVGA will no longer make RTX or other video cards. The company already made ~20 EVT samples of EVGA RTX 4090 FTW3 cards, but will not be moving to production and has killed all active projects pertaining to cards — including KINGPIN cards.

— Andrew Han, CEO of EVGA


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## VSG (Sep 16, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> CEO's statement:
> EVGA has terminated its relationship with NVIDIA. EVGA will no longer be manufacturing video cards of any type, citing a souring relationship with NVIDIA as the cause (among other reasons that were minimized). EVGA will not be exploring relationships with AMD or Intel *at this time*, and the company will be *downsizing imminently* as it exits the video card market. Customers will still be covered by EVGA policies, but EVGA will no longer make RTX or other video cards. The company already made ~20 EVT samples of EVGA RTX 4090 FTW3 cards, but will not be moving to production and has killed all active projects pertaining to cards — including KINGPIN cards.
> 
> — Andrew Han, CEO of EVGA


Source?


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## Minus Infinity (Sep 16, 2022)

Not surprising really. The way Ngreedia screwed over it's AIB partners with pricing and margins has left most of them fuming. Someone has finally had a gutful of Huang's mercenary tactics.


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## mama (Sep 16, 2022)

The comments about the quality of the EVGA cards seem off point.  You don't get such a sizeable proportion of the market over a long period if the quality/value isn't there.

Gamer's Nexus seems to suggest the decision is more of a personal one for the CEO who wants to "spend more time with family".  That doesn't ring true to me.  Every failed politician says they "want to spend more time with their family".  It's just a boiler plate excuse to mask the true reason or reasons.


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## ModEl4 (Sep 16, 2022)

VSG said:


> Source?


I edit my post:









						EVGA ceases video card production, no more EVGA GeForce GPUs - VideoCardz.com
					

EVGA ends relationship with NVIDIA The end of an era.  EVGA has invited members of the tech press to a closed meeting to announce the discontinuation of their graphics card manufacturing. The company has confirmed it will not launch GeForce RTX 40 series as well as future series. EVGA will not...




					videocardz.com
				




NVIDIA has already provided a short statement, as reported by Tae Kim:



> We’ve had a great partnership with EVGA over the years and will continue to support them on our current generation of products. We wish Andrew and our friends at EVGA all the best.
> — NVIDIA Spokesperson


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## ZoneDymo (Sep 16, 2022)

shovenose said:


> I really would love it if they’d partner with Intel Arc. They need a strong AIB partner.



Yeah them partnering with Intel would be pretty fantastic, they can pick the rules for both companies so they have a position of power unlike with Ngreedia and Intel will get a strong established quality name for their new cards, it would be Win/Win.

Apart from that, man its interesting reading the comments, they feel so emotional and "needing to pick sides"ish


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 16, 2022)

Storm's a-brewin'

If you say you didn't see this coming, you're kidding yourself.

As a side-note, does anyone remember why 3DFX died? For the sake of healthy competition that benefits us consumers, let us all hope that Jensen isn't quite that short-sighted or stubborn....


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## Gmr_Chick (Sep 16, 2022)

This smells truly fishy. If you as a company make up 40% of North American GPU sales, and a whopping 80% of your overall revenue comes from GPU sales...you don't just walk away from that to focus on the sales of motherboards, PSUs and peripherals.


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## Penev91 (Sep 16, 2022)

Nvidia just forced them to sell at a loss. More companies are going to follow.


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## Metroid (Sep 16, 2022)

The timing is impeccable, leave and then later renegotiate a better deal, let nvidia and its thieves partners suffer, there was no reason to increase gpu prices so much at all, right now everybody knows the truth that nvidia did that intentionally, sink nvidia to the depths of hehell.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 16, 2022)

Gmr_Chick said:


> This smells truly fishy. If you as a company make up 40% of North American GPU sales, and a whopping 80% of your overall revenue comes from GPU sales...you don't just walk away from that to focus on the sales of motherboards, PSUs and peripherals.


80% of their REVENUE made one third of their profit.

Do the math; That's pretty damning against Nvidia. 

EVGA aren't faultless, but their ragequit outcry isn't in isolation, all the major players (ASUS, Gigabyte, MSI) have publicly complained against Nvidia's manipulative stranglehold over them. EVGA are just the first company to admit Stockholm Syndrome and GTFO of a toxic situation.


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## Guwapo77 (Sep 16, 2022)

shovenose said:


> I really would love it if they’d partner with Intel Arc. They need a strong AIB partner.


Are you trying to destroy EVGA?   I mean, one warehouse full Nvidia GPUs and another warehouse of Intel Arc GPUs...  I don't see this as a winning combination at this time.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

You can't make a lot of money with crypto (the CEO said so) and then throw a tantrum because you have to sell some cards at a loss. That meat had some bones, get over it.

I also don't get the claim that nvidia controls the pricing when we seen the crazy prices in the recent past, seems like a blatant lie

I wonder if this isn't related to the recent spectacular failures they had, with the 1000 series and the 3090


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## N/A (Sep 17, 2022)

Penev91 said:


> Nvidia just forced them to sell at a loss. More companies are going to follow.



Did Nvidia force them to sell to miners.


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## mechtech (Sep 17, 2022)

Ravenmaster said:


> Well shit... EVGA was my favourite GPU/Motherboard manufacturer


Never had one of their mobos.  They look nice, but the segment is always beyond high end and price segment.


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## MarsM4N (Sep 17, 2022)

Doesn't surprise me at all & they won't be the last one. __ Every *energy guzzling company* will be under pressure the next years & sales of *non essentials (esp. electronics)* will go down the drain.

Got something similar going on over here between supermarkets/discounters and companies like _Mondolez (Milka), Nestle, CocaCola, etc._ where they raise prices & the supermarkets/discounters are not fine with it and remove or threaten to remove their stuff from the shelfs. They are all under pressure and can't take it that their rising profits over years will now not be anymore. Downsizing is not in their vocabular, lol.

Best bet would be to dump their assests & invest in gas, oil, solar pannels & wind/water turbines. Or gold, that's always a safe heaven in a global economy crisis, lol. 

Btw. wondering if EVGA is bleeding from RMA's of outworn miner cards? Their extended warranty has to break their necks.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Storm's a-brewin'
> 
> If you say you didn't see this coming, you're kidding yourself.
> 
> As a side-note, does anyone remember why 3DFX died? For the sake of healthy competition that benefits us consumers, let us all hope that Jensen isn't quite that short-sighted or stubborn....



3dfx failed because they could never release the damn cards they promised.


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## mechtech (Sep 17, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Storm's a-brewin'
> 
> View attachment 261932
> 
> ...


I still remember when they bought out ULi and I thought ok maybe get better driver support...............and ya nothing, bought them out and shut it down.

edit lol



https://forums.guru3d.com › threads › nvidia-has-bought-uli.163000
Nvidia has bought ULI! | guru3D Forums​I think the outcome will be the same as they did with 3Dfx!! RIP *ULi*.... :bolt: :frown:


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## TiN (Sep 17, 2022)

Wow, didn't expect this really


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## thegnome (Sep 17, 2022)

Painful, but shows how greedy Nvidia is getting. Sad to see the XOC cards gone too. Hopefully we won't end up with the big 4...


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## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

that JDPR report is hilarious

"EVGA is unusual compared to its peer companies in the AIB market because the company maintains a large engineering staff and designs its PCB and cooling system, as well as provides software for monitoring and overclocking (EVGA Precision)"

what?!


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## Chaitanya (Sep 17, 2022)

Penev91 said:


> Nvidia just forced them to sell at a loss. More companies are going to follow.


For 2 years these companies raked landfall profits from pandemic, and crypto boom. Now that things have returned to normal and all of a sudden they are worried of losses, things just dont add up.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 17, 2022)

mechtech said:


> I still remember when they bought out ULi and I thought ok maybe get better driver support...............and ya nothing, bought them out and shut it down.
> 
> edit lol
> 
> ...


IMO Nvidia is far too big to fail but even if the 4000-series is a resounding success (and it doesn't look like it's going well so far...) it will still be another black mark against their record.

Their dominant market position has made them a lot of profit but they gave up the console market, pissed off developers with their faulty black-box proprietary tools, and have bet the farm of datacenter/enterprise VDI which is a shrinking market post-COVID.

Their products and tech are good, but Nvidia's attitude and treatment of partners/customers/consumers is fucking horrific. They deserve any repercussions that comes their way tenfold.


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## Berfs1 (Sep 17, 2022)

I am sad, EVGA is gone from GPUs...


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> 3dfx failed because they could never release the damn cards they promised.


Because they tried to go vertical and failed. If you watch GN's coverage video on the EVGA quit fiasco, you'll see official responses from Nvidia that they don't value their board partners and want to go vertical like 3DFX did when they were also the kings of the industry at the time.

"History repeats itself" could potentially apply to Nvidia if they're not careful. Nvidia aren't infallible and they're making enemies pretty fast at a time when the GPU market is contracting, hard. It doesn't' pay to be stubborn assholes during a mutiny....


----------



## TheDeeGee (Sep 17, 2022)

No doubt there is more going on beside "nvidia bad".


----------



## openbox1980 (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Recent Ryzen mobo launch suddenly makes more sense.
> 
> 
> You mean it utterly ending by going Proof of Stake?
> ...


Yea but the black edition was their higher midrange models.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> Here is a guess.  The has to do with GPU prices since they are crashing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it's up to the AIB's to manage inventory, this is just "nvidia bad guy" talk, no company would do what you suggest. EVGA overestimated sales, bough too much, it's no ones fault but their own. 
Nvidia also has to pay Samsung for the fab allocation and what they bought and can't go ask for discount if gpu's aren't sold. 
NO ONE WORKS LIKE THIS.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Sep 17, 2022)

ModEl4 said:


> EVGA has terminated its relationship with NVIDIA. EVGA will no longer be manufacturing video cards of any type, citing a souring relationship with NVIDIA as the cause (among other reasons that were minimized). EVGA will not be exploring relationships with AMD or Intel *at this time*, and the company will be *downsizing imminently* as it exits the video card market. Customers will still be covered by EVGA policies, but EVGA will no longer make RTX or other video cards. The company already made ~20 EVT samples of EVGA RTX 4090 FTW3 cards, but will not be moving to production and has killed all active projects pertaining to cards — including KINGPIN cards.
> 
> — Andrew Han, CEO of EVGA



Sounds like EVGA looked at the current situation of Nvidia undercutting AiBs with their FE cards, especially during the GPU "shortages". 

Also, if the margins are slim and EVGA had made some samples of the 4090, but found the cost to be too much compared to making an actual profit without harming the company and then taking into consideration how Nvidia has been handling the 3000 series, it may have very well looked like a complete loss to EVGA to try and go through another generation with them. If Nvidia is sitting on stock (of the 3000 series) and trying to keep prices up enough on the 3000 series so they can price up the 4000 series (as rumors suggest) coupled with companies having 4000 series sitting in stock, but unable to sell them, that's just money tied up in multiple locations that eats into the coffers.

Lots of "what if" scenarios here and without being on the inside and actually knowing it all, we can only speculate.....

Maybe EVGA made a wise choice to cut ties and walk away? I guess only time will tell.


----------



## Fluffmeister (Sep 17, 2022)

TheDeeGee said:


> No doubt there is more going on beside "nvidia bad".



Indeed, if Nvidia are the bad guys, why no partnership with AMD? Surely that would be seen as a big win for AMD and their products to lure EVGA away from the big bad wolf.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 17, 2022)

shovenose said:


> I really would love it if they’d partner with Intel Arc. They need a strong AIB partner.



I had this fleeting wish too.  It occurred to me that may have been the original plan, among reports that this has been in the works since sometime in the April-July time frame.  

If that was ever a possibility (a big IF), it may be that EVGA decided Intel wasn't up to snuff on GPUs yet, driving a final nail into the coffin of their GPUs.



neatfeatguy said:


> Sounds like EVGA looked at the current situation of Nvidia undercutting AiBs with their FE cards, especially during the GPU "shortages".
> 
> Also, if the margins are slim and EVGA had made some samples of the 4090, but found the cost to be too much compared to making an actual profit without harming the company and then taking into consideration how Nvidia has been handling the 3000 series, it may have very well looked like a complete loss to EVGA to try and go through another generation with them. If Nvidia is sitting on stock (of the 3000 series) and trying to keep prices up enough on the 3000 series so they can price up the 4000 series (as rumors suggest) coupled with companies having 4000 series sitting in stock, but unable to sell them, that's just money tied up in multiple locations that eats into the coffers.
> 
> ...



Honestly this may not be a market where *anyone* can make a profit on new GPUs for some time.  Catering to the Crypto mining market was always going to have a future price, the bill now seems due.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

Kingpin would have nothing to do with a partnership with Intel


----------



## qubit (Sep 17, 2022)

Seismic.


----------



## cvaldes (Sep 17, 2022)

Undoubtedly EVGA considered partnering with AMD and/or Intel at some point, probably held meetings, maybe even got some engineering sample chips to play with. But in the end, they decided to exit the GPU business completely, a move that is decidedly pessimistic about the discrete graphics card industry as a whole.

Perhaps they forecasted a future of ever-dwindling gross margins based on what their recent returns have been in the past five or so years.

For sure EVGA's senior management team has thought about this long and hard; Andrew Han and Jensen Huang must have conversed numerous times over recent years about how things were going.


----------



## Ravenas (Sep 17, 2022)

EVGA should be allowed anonymity, similar to ASUS or Gigabyte, in regard to chipsets.


----------



## PapaTaipei (Sep 17, 2022)

Wow, was not expecting that one. They were the only ones with 10 years warranty on GPU...


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 17, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Undoubtedly EVGA also considered partnering with AMD and/or Intel at some point, probably held meetings, maybe even got some engineering sample chips to play with. But in the end, they decided to exit the GPU business completely, a move that is decidedly pessimistic about the discrete graphics card industry as a whole.
> 
> Perhaps they forecasted a future of ever-dwindling gross margins based on what their recent returns have been in the past five or so years.
> 
> For sure EVGA's senior management team has thought about this long and hard; Andrew Han and Jensen Huang must have conversed numerous times over recent years about how things were going.



A good observation.   dGPUs as a mass market item may be on their way out.  

Not yet ofc, but in 6-12 months we'll have a 'tiled' tGPU in Meteor Lake and AMD is already adding iGPU to its desktop chips with Zen 4.   DDR5 will also help alleviate memory bandwidth issues that plague current iGPUs, especially as DDR5 gets faster over the next year or two.  

The long predicted end for the discrete GPU market may be near.


----------



## Hxx (Sep 17, 2022)

N/A said:


> Did Nvidia force them to sell to miners.


Does a vendor know /care who they’re selling to? Money is money no matter from who and all vendors can do is place some hurdles but miners could easily overcome those


----------



## Berfs1 (Sep 17, 2022)

Fluffmeister said:


> if Nvidia are the bad guys, why no partnership with AMD? Surely that would be seen as a big win for AMD and their products to lure EVGA away from the big bad wolf.


Possibly because they don't want to go back and forth between the two once AMD does a fuck up (if it happens).



RandallFlagg said:


> A good observation.   dGPUs as a mass market item may be on their way out.
> 
> Not yet ofc, but in 6-12 months we'll have a 'tiled' tGPU in Meteor Lake and AMD is already adding iGPU to its desktop chips with Zen 4.   DDR5 will also help alleviate memory bandwidth issues that plague current iGPUs, especially as DDR5 gets faster over the next year or two.
> 
> The long predicted end for the discrete GPU market may be near.


I doubt it will ever end. There are always some scenarios that require discrete GPUs, and with software always advancing, we won't reach a time where iGPU is powerful enough to run the latest software. iGPUs are meant to be rather basic in performance but have all the capabilities such as encoders, decoders, etc.


----------



## mama (Sep 17, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> Sounds like EVGA looked at the current situation of Nvidia undercutting AiBs with their FE cards, especially during the GPU "shortages".
> 
> Also, if the margins are slim and EVGA had made some samples of the 4090, but found the cost to be too much compared to making an actual profit without harming the company and then taking into consideration how Nvidia has been handling the 3000 series, it may have very well looked like a complete loss to EVGA to try and go through another generation with them. If Nvidia is sitting on stock (of the 3000 series) and trying to keep prices up enough on the 3000 series so they can price up the 4000 series (as rumors suggest) coupled with companies having 4000 series sitting in stock, but unable to sell them, that's just money tied up in multiple locations that eats into the coffers.
> 
> ...


I agree.  There is likely a combination of old and new reasons why the decision was made.  I think it possible the extreme cooling the new 40 series needs (only speculation of course as it hasn't released) may have played a role.


----------



## outpt (Sep 17, 2022)

this sucks big time. in 20 years i have had only 1 card that was not from EVGA and that was a 5600xt from XFX. well i guess when my 3080 from EVGA kicks the can i will look else where. i have never had a EVGA give it up.


----------



## Hxx (Sep 17, 2022)

Gmr_Chick said:


> This smells truly fishy. If you as a company make up 40% of North American GPU sales, and a whopping 80% of your overall revenue comes from GPU sales...you don't just walk away from that to focus on the sales of motherboards, PSUs and peripherals.


Gross profit and net income are two very different measures of your financial power . Evga said fuck it why work 100 times harder and compete with even the suppliers own cards (FEs) when they can refocus on higher margins and less sales volume but the volume will grow as they repurpose their resources . The only folks suffering here would be the additional specialized employees who may no longer be needed and eventually coached out of the company

Also not sure how obvious this is but companies restructure all the time by discontinuing operations  or acquisitions. It’s just polarizing in this case because gpus are a huge chunk of their business that’s all


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> The long predicted end for the discrete GPU market may be near.



Markets were way smaller in the 1990's and early 2000's and we still had a new gpu every couple years. Sure, they may not make as many in the future, but the PC Gamer market will still run on supply and demand.


----------



## samum (Sep 17, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Undoubtedly EVGA considered partnering with AMD and/or Intel at some point, probably held meetings, maybe even got some engineering sample chips to play with. But in the end, they decided to exit the GPU business completely, a move that is decidedly pessimistic about the discrete graphics card industry as a whole.
> 
> Perhaps they forecasted a future of ever-dwindling gross margins based on what their recent returns have been in the past five or so years.
> 
> For sure EVGA's senior management team has thought about this long and hard; Andrew Han and Jensen Huang must have conversed numerous times over recent years about how things were going.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Nvidia exclusivity agreement prevented EVGA from even talking to another chipmaker about discreet GPUs.


----------



## nguyen (Sep 17, 2022)

Sounds like a "I have had enough" reaction from EVGA's top managements when they have been loyal to Nvidia for 20 years, only to be treated as a useless middleman that Nvidia want to cut in the near future.

Anyways the GPU business is shrinking considerably for the forseeable future, it's not a bad decision to cash out now...


----------



## cvaldes (Sep 17, 2022)

Berfs1 said:


> I doubt it will ever end. There are always some scenarios that require discrete GPUs, and with software always advancing, we won't reach a time where iGPU is powerful enough to run the latest software. iGPUs are meant to be rather basic in performance but have all the capabilities such as encoders, decoders, etc.


Oh, the discrete graphics card market isn't going to vanish. There will always be specialized usage cases for them including content creation, technical computing, game development, etc. And yeah, sure, the handful of loyal PC gaming enthusiasts.

However in five years, will people's phones be powerful enough to play 4K games and cast them onto TV sets? We are already seeing mainstream video game console hardware (Xbox X and PS5) run at 4K. In the end content is king: gameplay beats the number of polygons on your screen.

There are other developments like cloud gaming and streaming (gaming as a spectator sport) that are already changing the way people see games.

The video game world is constantly evolving and the old paradigm of a powerful GPU in a desktop PC is getting more and more antiquated every day. We already know that mobile gaming generates far more revenue than console and PC gaming.


----------



## Khonjel (Sep 17, 2022)

What a news to wake up to. EVGA in red boxes, bring it on. I know so many people who buy EVGA, not Nvidia because of their stellar warranty.


----------



## PapaTaipei (Sep 17, 2022)

I don't get why NVIDIA/ AMD doesn't directly sell cards. Just like Intel. AIB is pure parasitic nonsense.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Sep 17, 2022)

I'm almost tempted to pickup an EVGA card just because it'll be the last time they're around and considering the fact is, I don't have one from this generation anymore. Just an ASUS 3080 and also an ASUS 3060 Ti. But, then you have a card from EVGA that you're putting your trust in them to be able to uphold the 3 year warranty (wonder if they'll still offer extended warranties....?) should something happen to that GPU.

EVGA and Zotac were my main go to companies. I got ASUS cards because that's just what was available when the time came. Guess it'll be Zotac and then ASUS from here on out for me.


----------



## MarsM4N (Sep 17, 2022)

My program for the *next 3 hrs*.  Do not disturb. THX


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2022)

Holy meadow muffins Batman! What the actual hell EVGA? You make the best cards in the industry! What the hell are we going to do now?


----------



## SLObinger (Sep 17, 2022)

If there are any good players in this industry EVGA is among them. Got an EVGA 3090 Ti three days ago. Today it has more sentimental vs monetary value I think.


----------



## phanbuey (Sep 17, 2022)

it looks like nvidia is adopting the very same model 3dfx had when they beat them through using board partners...

I think it's quite a stupid move.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Holy meadow muffins Batman! What the actual hell EVGA? You make the best cards in the industry! What the hell are we going to do now?



PC Gamer article said it was a matter of "being respected"  Looks like Nvidia just being a dick to EVGA from what I can gather from that PC Gamer article.









						EVGA is reportedly so sick of working with Nvidia that it's going to stop making graphics cards altogether
					

The decision is said to be about "respect."




					www.pcgamer.com


----------



## natr0n (Sep 17, 2022)

I'm guessing they were paying that kingpin guy too much.

Really sucks I have a 1660ti and 3070ti from them. Very good quality products.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2022)

This is a huge blow to NV, on top of the Ether build. It must have been THAT bad for EVGA to just walk away, insane.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> PC Gamer article said it was a matter of "being respected"  Looks like Nvidia just being a dick to EVGA from what I can gather from that PC Gamer article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's got to be gears grinding somewhere. It would be nice to see EVGA return to being non-exclusive.


----------



## Zubasa (Sep 17, 2022)

phanbuey said:


> it looks like nvidia is adopting the very same model 3dfx had when they beat them through using board partners...
> 
> I think it's quite a stupid move.


The difference is nVidia can afford to do as they please, pretty much.
In the end of the day people just goes and buys other brands of Geforce cards, no lost to Jensen.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2022)

Zubasa said:


> The difference is nVidia can afford to do as they please, pretty much.
> In the end of the day people just goes and buys other brands of Geforce cards, no lost to Jensen.


That's the kind of thinking that led to this lmao.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Zubasa said:


> The difference is nVidia can afford to do as they please, pretty much.
> In the end of the day people just goes and buys other brands of Geforce cards, no lost to Jensen.


Here's the thing ~ they can't, this is assuming Intel continues with their GPU sojourn. Intel, AMD both have DC offerings that can match/beat Nivida in some tasks & Grace is a big unknown right now. The way things stand right now, with the growth of Intel & especially AMD's DC GPU business, Nvidia is highly vulnerable! You've seen this with their stock price & revenues. It can get real ugly real fast for Nvidia ~ JHH should remember that, especially given how Nvidia treats its customers & partners!


----------



## maxfly (Sep 17, 2022)

Such a sad, sad day.
 I personally wrote ngreedia cards off completely after all of the shit leather jacket boy pulled over the last several years. But to see EVGA end their GPU run? It's hard to believe.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Here's the thing ~ they can't, this is assuming Intel continues with their GPU sojourn. Intel, AMD both have DC offerings that can match/beat Nivida in some tasks & Grace is a big unknown right now. The way things stand right now, with the growth of Intel & especially AMD's DC GPU business, Nvidia is highly vulnerable! You've seen this with their stock price & revenues. It can get real ugly real fast for Nvidia ~ JHH should remember that, especially given how Nvidia treats its customers & partners!


Yeap, NV is in serious straits. Their revenue just took a massive hit ala with the bitcoin pullback. And now with Ether's new build, gpu mining is going to take a big hit moving forward. And now with one of their if biggest OEM's just flatly drops them. This is such a huge blemish. Wait to Wallstreet catches whiff of this. And then there's the matter of missing projections by gargantuan proportions, a miss of $1.4B.

I hope NV doesn't catch what Intel's got. Also, let's not forget who is who here...









						Nvidia hid how many GPUs it was selling to cryptocurrency miners, says SEC
					

Nvidia reported the GPUs were being used for gaming, a less volatile market.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## Patriot (Sep 17, 2022)

Hxx said:


> Does a vendor know /care who they’re selling to? Money is money no matter from who and all vendors can do is place some hurdles but miners could easily overcome those


I would imagine product registration vs sales might give an indication but that's rough.   Nvidia has a much better idea. Sales vs driver downloads.  Having worked for an Nvidia partner in the past... Nvidia lies, steals, and treats all partners as expendable.


----------



## The Von Matrices (Sep 17, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> 80% of their REVENUE made one third of their profit.
> 
> Do the math; That's pretty damning against Nvidia.


I would have pointed this out if you hadn't. 

Too may people are used to the Silicon Valley business model where a company tries to get as many customers (and revenue) as quickly as possible, losing tons of money, with the hopes of finding some magical way in the future to turn that into a profit.  That's not a business; that's a charity.

It takes courage to kill a business that has lots of revenue but isn't making a profit.  It's the right business move.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 17, 2022)

thesmokingman said:


> Yeap, NV is in serious straits. Their revenue just took a massive hit ala with the bitcoin pullback. And now with Ether's new build, gpu mining is going to take a big hit moving forward. And now with one of their if biggest OEM's just flatly drops them. This is such a huge blemish. Wait to Wallstreet catches whiff of this. And then there's the matter of missing projections by gargantuan proportions, a miss of $1.4B.
> 
> I hope NV doesn't catch what Intel's got. Also, let's not forget who is who here...
> 
> ...



Well, that $5M to the SEC is nothing.

They didn't admit fault, but if one shareholder wins in court, Nvidia could quickly become a zombie corp.  I have always preferred their hardware, but no pity from me.  Failure to disclose their exposure to crypto on SEC filings, misleading investors, yeah Jensen might be jumping out of a tall building soon if it unravels that way.

A corp can kill 1000 people with a defective product and the execs walk off, but fail to disclose things on your SEC filings and an exec can be personally held liable for it in civil court (failure of fiducial responsibility).  Sorta like Al Capone getting nabbed by the IRS.

Edit: But, lets be real.  Nvidia is still a massively profitable company, even with the recent decline in earnings (they made 620M profit in that 'horrible' quarter).


----------



## evernessince (Sep 17, 2022)

I've been purchasing EVGA cards for a long time now.  Not sure there is any other AIB that's up to their level customer service wise.

If Nvidia wants to kick out it's partners I'm not sure I want a part of that.  Their RMA experience is truly awful, somehow makes Gigabyte look godly.  I won't touch anything warrantied directly by Nvidia, at least on the consumer side.


----------



## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Well, that $5M to the SEC is nothing.
> 
> They didn't admit fault, but if one shareholder wins in court, Nvidia could quickly become a zombie corp.  I have always preferred their hardware, but no pity from me.  Failure to disclose their exposure to crypto on SEC filings, misleading investors, yeah Jensen might be jumping out of a tall building soon if it unravels that way.
> 
> ...


The fines to tech companies is peanuts to them. This is widely known, and was talked about a LOT in Zatcko's testimony in Congress. They be looking to put multipliers on their tech fines it seems. I don't want to get into what-ifs with other possible actions. They are still a profitable company no doubt, but a $1.4B miss is ocean sized fail. They've lost a major partner, the sun may be setting on gpu mining as we knew it, so they will be hard pressed to compensate for that massive whole. Also, they are losing their grasp on machine learning, first it was Tesla dropping them, now... 

All these headwinds are going to have to be dealt with... but I think Jensen can keep his shit together and now lose it like Intel.









						GM's Cruise follows Tesla's lead in developing its own chip for autonomous driving
					

GM's Cruise has developed its own computer chips for self-driving cars with plans to deploy them by 2025




					www.teslarati.com


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 17, 2022)

thesmokingman said:


> The fines to tech companies is peanuts to them. This is widely known, and was talked about a LOT in Zatcko's testimony in Congress. They be looking to put multipliers on their tech fines it seems. I don't want to get into what-ifs with other possible actions. They are still a profitable company no doubt, but a $1.4B miss is ocean sized fail. They've lost a major partner, the sun may be setting on gpu mining as we knew it, so they will be hard pressed to compensate for that massive whole. Also, they are losing their grasp on machine learning, first it was Tesla dropping them, now...
> 
> All these headwinds are going to have to be dealt with... but I think Jensen can keep his shit together and now lose it like Intel.
> 
> ...



That's actually a trend now (Tesla making its own AI chip).  Apple was way ahead of the curve on this with the iPhone SoCs, but it's spreading.  Amazon with its Graviton is another example.  Meta is partnering with Qualcomm to have them design custom chips for its VR devices.  This is why it's important for Intel to get its IDM foundry services going.


----------



## MarsM4N (Sep 17, 2022)

Just watching _*JayzTwoCents video*_ and he mentioned that it was only him (Jay from _"JayzTwoCents"_), Steve (_"GamersNexus"_) & John Petty (_"John Petty Research"_) in the secret _EVGA_ meeting.

I do understand the first 2 picks for publicity, but who is _*John Petty*_? Looks like he's currenty working for *Unity Technologies* as an graphics engineer. What's the deal with him?


----------



## bubbleawsome (Sep 17, 2022)

I know they won’t, but if they would switch to AMD GPUs i would make the same switch.


----------



## AnotherReader (Sep 17, 2022)

MarsM4N said:


> Just watching _*JayzTwoCents video*_ and he mentioned that it was only him (Jay from _"JayzTwoCents"_), Steve (_"GamersNexus"_) & John Petty (_"John Petty Research"_) in the secret _EVGA_ meeting.
> 
> I do understand the first 2 picks for publicity, but who is _*John Petty*_? Looks like he's currenty working for *Unity Technologies* as an graphics engineer. What's the deal with him?


This is why articles >> videos. It's Jon Peddie of Jon Peddie Research.


----------



## MarsM4N (Sep 17, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> This is why articles >> videos. It's Jon Peddie of Jon Peddie Research.



Alright, *Jon Peddie Research*. Now it makes more sense, lol. 










						EVGA won’t offer Nvidia next-gen series
					

Citing price increases and shrinking margins, EVGA quits Nvidia.




					www.jonpeddie.com
				




Linus made a video, too. Guess it just keeps comming the next days.










Dam, Linus is *roasting Nvidia* hard! He even opens up about their dirty games.  That's for sure a hard day for Nvidia fanboys. Lot's of "green dirt" comming out.


----------



## trparky (Sep 17, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Not yet ofc, but in 6-12 months we'll have a 'tiled' tGPU in Meteor Lake and AMD is already adding iGPU to its desktop chips with Zen 4. DDR5 will also help alleviate memory bandwidth issues that plague current iGPUs, especially as DDR5 gets faster over the next year or two.
> 
> The long predicted end for the discrete GPU market may be near.


Especially if AMD comes out with APUs with RDNA3 onboard.


Berfs1 said:


> I doubt it will ever end. There are always some scenarios that require discrete GPUs, and with software always advancing, we won't reach a time where iGPU is powerful enough to run the latest software. iGPUs are meant to be rather basic in performance but have all the capabilities such as encoders, decoders, etc.


There's a difference between an Intel iGPU and what AMD often includes on their APUs which if they were to include RDNA3, yeah... I could see the end of dGPUs for a majority of the market.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

Voodoo Rufus said:


> I've bought EVGA cards for 15 years now. Steady customer and their reliability and customer service has been top notch.
> 
> I'm guessing they may go AMD when the dust settles down a bit.



An EVGA RX 7900 XT KPE is a GPU I can only dream about 

It's gotta happen, I really really hope AMD steps up! Intel should also seek to distribute Arc GPUs through EVGA as a budget offering, both would be a smash hit


----------



## trparky (Sep 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> It's gotta happen, I really really hope AMD steps up! Intel should also seek to distribute Arc GPUs through EVGA as a budget offering, both would be a smash hit


Why all this talk about Intel ARC? It's basically dead. Buried six feet under. It's such an absolute failure.


----------



## SLObinger (Sep 17, 2022)

EVGA has a plan and I think Andrew Han's statement was carefully worded.

Perhaps this is a bold strategic move by EVGA to exit its exclusive and suffocating sourcing agreement with NVIDIA that requires it to exit the video card market completely prior to taking up another GPU partnership.Terms like this are commonplace in exclusively agreements and naturally EVGA would need to publicly swear off any intentions of an AMD or Intel relationship and actually exit the market for a while anyway.

So maybe EVGA is out of the GPU business for one cycle and they keep the lights on through strong PSU sales driven by the new ATX standard and Nvidia's massive 4000 series power requirements and then after a year or two actually emerge as the dominate GPU board partner for AMD, Intel or both.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

trparky said:


> Why all this talk about Intel ARC? It's basically dead. Buried six feet under.



I for one ask why such lack of goodwill towards the new player in the GPU space. Anyone that genuinely believed that the first generation of Intel GPUs would be performant and bug-free was deluding themselves from the start. Things will improve, and I hope Intel persists.

The ultimate proof that NVIDIA got too powerful and too big for its own good is in their biggest partner basically saying: "no more, I quit, get your distribution terms and stuff em where the sun don't shine!"


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

I just woke up and this is the first news to greet me. What a shock!

Considering that _"Graphics cards made up over three-quarters of EVGA's revenue"_, this decision is either extremely illogical, or it's telling something about what partnership with Nvidia looks and feels like.


----------



## trparky (Sep 17, 2022)

But according to one YouTuber who claims to have insider knowledge from people inside the halls of Intel, Gelsinger has all but put the silver bullet into the chest of Intel ARC.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I just woke up and this is the first news to greet me. What a shock!
> 
> Considering that _"Graphics cards made up over three-quarters of EVGA's revenue"_, this decision is either extremely illogical, or it's telling something about what partnership with Nvidia looks and feels like.



It's the latter. I would expect exclusivity agreements to be nightmarish by nature, but given what EVGA's CEO tells us, apparently it's an easier decision to do this than to sign up for yet another round. They were losing a LOT of money in their high end GPU sales, and even the mass volume market's income was low and barely enough to break even, so things were looking pretty grim.



trparky said:


> But according to one YouTuber who claims to have insider knowledge from people inside the halls of Intel, Gelsinger has all but put the silver bullet into the chest of Intel ARC.



MLID is a fool and no one should take him seriously. I used to hang out in an AMD fan discord where a member straight up fabricated the SKU list for Zen 2 CPUs and he posted it verbatim back in the day. It was hilarious. Treat anything that comes out of rumor mill channels as rumors and with massive doses of salt.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> MLID is a fool and no one should take him seriously. I used to hang out in an AMD fan discord where a member straight up fabricated the SKU list for Zen 2 CPUs and he posted it verbatim back in the day. It was hilarious. Treat anything that comes out of rumor mill channels as rumors and with massive doses of salt.


Or even better: don't read/watch rumours at all.



Dr. Dro said:


> It's the latter. I would expect exclusivity agreements to be nightmarish by nature, but given what EVGA's CEO tells us, apparently it's an easier decision to do this than to sign up for yet another round. They were losing a LOT of money in their high end GPU sales, and even the mass volume market's income was low and barely enough to break even, so things were looking pretty grim.


Nvidia is being hated by more and more people for their shady business practices. When it's all confirmed by their partners leaving them, they'll have to see that something has to change (I know it won't).


----------



## Fouquin (Sep 17, 2022)

trparky said:


> But according to one YouTuber



And the rest of your argument is now invalid. Thanks for playing.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

RedBear said:


> This one? Even after reading it, I'm still left wondering: what does it say then?


You are missing context at the end that is not posted.

Essentially, the adapters are a fire hazard if used improperly outside their intended use case.  That's the context you are missing.



shovenose said:


> I really would love it if they’d partner with Intel Arc. They need a strong AIB partner.


I would too, but first ARC has to be worth buying.  Hopefully it will get there.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> Nvidia is being hated by more and more people for their shady business practices. When it's all confirmed by their partners leaving them, they'll have to see that something has to change (I know it won't).



Unfortunately, much like amongst the Apple patronage, the average joe doesn't really care about their anti-competitive practices or their black box approach that is extremely hostile to user-modification and open-source development. As for me, it's safe to say this RTX 3090 may very well be the last NVIDIA GPU I will own in the foreseeable future.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 17, 2022)

trparky said:


> Especially if AMD comes out with APUs with RDNA3 onboard.



Yes, that's what I'm thinking, from both Intel and AMD. 

But AMD is already going to deal a blow to the dGPU market with Zen 4.  Consider, for like 12+ months every single Zen 3 sold *had* to have a dGPU.  And even now, all the high performance 'X' Zen 3 *have* to have a dGPU.

Not everyone cares about GPUs, in fact *most* PC users don't care about that.  I think dGPU market penetration hit 30-35% at its recent height during Covid lockdowns, and it is normally more like 20-25%.  So basically, if we say AMD gets 20% of the desktop market, that's roughly 50M PCs.

If just half of those people who buy AMD do not buy a dGPU because they are fine with the iGPU, then that is 25M fewer dGPUs that will sell in the next year.  And I'd bet it will be more than half.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Holy meadow muffins Batman! What the actual hell EVGA? You make the best cards in the industry! What the hell are we going to do now?


I'm going to be looking at another vendor to shortlist, that's for sure.  Any advice on a good partner nvidia side?  I already have my "whitelist" AMD side.  And of course I always consult reviews.

EVGA actually shipped me a few cards that were outright awful, I won't lie.  One of them killed PCIe sockets.  But they made up for it by paying for the damage and issuing a hefty store credit.  Rare to see a company own up to it's mistake like that.  I for one will miss them.

The majority of their products have not caused me any issues.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I'm going to be looking at another vendor to shortlist, that's for sure.  Any advice on a good partner nvidia side?  I already have my "whitelist" AMD side.  And of course I always consult reviews.
> 
> EVGA actually shipped me a few cards that were outright awful, I won't lie.  One of them killed PCIe sockets.  But they made up for it by paying for the damage and issuing a hefty store credit.  Rare to see a company owe up to it's mistake like that.  I for one will miss them.
> 
> The majority of their products have not caused me any issues.


I will miss them too. They were probably the most user-friendly bunch of all. The rest could learn from them how to do RMA and sales (direct order and queuing on their own website during the shortage).

This leaves my whitelist with Asus only, unfortunately. MSi has a few decent cards, but it's kind of a hit-and-miss and their software is awful. Zotac and Palit cards seem to be pretty basic, which is nice in the low/mid-tier, but I'm not sure I would trust them in the high-end. Gigabyte is a big no-no for me. That's it for the UK partners, I'm afraid.


----------



## cerulliber (Sep 17, 2022)

american EVGA done, means chinese Colorful iGame Kudan will be the fastest nVidia card period. 
untill another company will emerge.


----------



## matar (Sep 17, 2022)

What No way... this is like XFX back in the days i used to by Nvidia XFX like 8800GTX then they stopped Nvidia but they went to ATi now its AMD and now EVGA just completely Stopped


----------



## nguyen (Sep 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> I will miss them too. They were probably the most user-friendly bunch of all. The rest could learn from them how to do RMA and sales (direct order and queuing on their own website during the shortage).
> 
> This leaves my whitelist with Asus only, unfortunately. MSi has a few decent cards, but it's kind of a hit-and-miss and their software is awful. Zotac and Palit cards seem to be pretty basic, which is nice in the low/mid-tier, but I'm not sure I would trust them in the high-end. Gigabyte is a big no-no for me. That's it for the UK partners, I'm afraid.



Asus GPU are nice, even the cheapest models from Asus use better VRM components than EVGA high-ends


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Asus GPU are nice, even the cheapest models from Asus use better VRM components than EVGA high-ends


True. Although, I liked Evga for their simplicity. They were probably the last to force RGB onto every card they sold, and even then it was discreet.

I was thinking about selling my Evga 2070 as it's only been collecting dust for months, but considering this news, I'll keep it as a memento.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> Unfortunately, much like amongst the Apple patronage, the average joe doesn't really care about their anti-competitive practices or their black box approach that is extremely hostile to user-modification and open-source development. As for me, it's safe to say this RTX 3090 may very well be the last NVIDIA GPU I will own in the foreseeable future.


Their (loyal) user base isn't that big, Apple's got at least 10x more sheep behind their piper! If gaming goes to the gutter you'll see the (same) kinds of length Intel went to, to now compete with AMD. That one line, from Nvidia, Steve mentioned in one of his videos was quite telling ~ *We don't compete on price*.

Well you effin do, you just haven't realized accepted that yet


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Their (loyal) user base isn't that big, Apple's got at least 10x more sheep behind their piper! If gaming goes to the gutter you'll see the (same) kinds of length Intel went to, to now compete with AMD. That one line, from Nvidia, Steve mentioned in one of his videos was quite telling ~ *We don't compete on price*.
> 
> Well you effin do, you just haven't realized accepted that yet


That depends on the person. For me, it's true (they don't compete on price) as I wouldn't buy an Apple product for 1 quid.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Their (loyal) user base isn't that big, Apple's got at least 10x more sheep behind their piper! If gaming goes to the gutter you'll see the (same) kinds of length Intel went to, to now compete with AMD. That one line, from Nvidia, Steve mentioned in one of his videos was quite telling ~ *We don't compete on price*.
> 
> Well you effin do, you just haven't realized accepted that yet



Perhaps in absolute numbers, but in our PC realm, GeForce holds the overwhelming majority of the market share and has an unparalleled mindshare. 

Radeon's fight is still very much uphill, even after the strides and inroads made by AMD with the exceptional performance of the RDNA 2 series, the commercial success of Ryzen and the "AMD Ryzen | Radeon" program. I know quite a few people that won't touch a red team graphics card with a barge pole, and yet these people are actually rather open-minded towards Intel, likely by association with their traditionally strong CPU lineup.

I don't think our gaming hobby is going to the gutter, though some rough seas might be ahead.


----------



## TechLurker (Sep 17, 2022)

I'm half-expecting that their threat to terminate their GPU employees is mostly an attempt to get AMD or Intel to the negotiation table with favorable terms or they'd lose out and have to invest more to get EVGA to reclaim the staff.

Regardless, I'd like to see EVGA actually host both AMD and Intel; as their tuning division did lead to some pretty impressive projects both on the mobo side and the GPU side, and both AMD and Intel could stand to benefit from having an experienced team of OC'ers pushing their cards to the limit.

Personally, I'm a bit biased, and would love for EVGA to mostly become another AMD-exclusive GPU partner, especially one that can put out halo cards (KINGPIN) that rival that of GALAX' and Colorful's most extreme offerings (HOF and Kudan respectively), as well as further deepen their mobo support for AMD. The rest of AMD's GPU partners don't really go that extreme with their offerings (Sapphire's Toxic comes close), and neutral partners like ASUS are biased towards NVIDIA (their hybrid Matrix cooler being NVIDIA-only instead of both NVIDIA and Radeon).


----------



## 64K (Sep 17, 2022)

For those looking to replace EVGA I can recommend MSI cards. My last 4 cards have been MSI and they all lasted a long time. They generally get favorable reviews with the possible exception of the Ventus line.


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 17, 2022)

Well I've been stuck in their queue since the Ampere launched, so that explains it.


----------



## Zubasa (Sep 17, 2022)

thesmokingman said:


> That's the kind of thinking that led to this lmao.


Unfortunately this is the kind of mind set the vast majority of the GPU market shares.


Dr. Dro said:


> Perhaps in absolute numbers, but in our PC realm, GeForce holds the overwhelming majority of the market share and has an unparalleled mindshare.
> 
> Radeon's fight is still very much uphill, even after the strides and inroads made by AMD with the exceptional performance of the RDNA 2 series, the commercial success of Ryzen and the "AMD Ryzen | Radeon" program. I know quite a few people that won't touch a red team graphics card with a barge pole, and yet these people are actually rather open-minded towards Intel, likely by association with their traditionally strong CPU lineup.
> 
> I don't think our gaming hobby is going to the gutter, though some rough seas might be ahead.


At least someone gets it.
It takes a lot to make nVidia budge at all at their current dominance.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> I don't think our gaming hobby is going to the gutter, though some rough seas might be ahead.


Not necessarily PC gaming per se but a lot of GeForce "gaming" cards were sold to miners & that well has dried up, at least till the next mining boom which I hope never comes! As a percentage of the total spent on (computing) hardware that pie is also shrinking, though spends on electronics in general is going down as well in part because of market saturation. Basically *IMO *people are spending less on "discretionary" spends like gaming (hardware) than they used to & I believe this is going to be a trend going forward.


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 17, 2022)

If it's Nvidia's fault, we will see other partners struggling too - EVGA was one of the biggest, healthiest.

Maybe they gambled, took a very, very large order of high end Ampere cards when the crypto buying wave was high, and then Nvidia pressured them to sell that in a market without buyers, but bound their hands with high minimum card price?


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Zubasa said:


> It takes a lot to make nVidia budge at all at their current dominance.


Right so let's stop buying their products unless you really have no alternative, speak with your vote wallet. Companies don't change on their own ~ never have & never will, you need to make them change!


----------



## watzupken (Sep 17, 2022)

This news says a lot about partnering with Nvidia. And it shows it is not easy working with the likes of Nvidia. Given that EVGA sells GPU, and specifically Nvidia GPUs as their main product, throwing in the towel on Nvidia GPU also means that they lose a huge chunk of sales. To me, ending the partnership is a drastic move, and irrational if it is not for compelling reasons. I am not sure if EVGA partnering with the likes of AMD and Intel will ever help them recover sales like they did with Nvidia cards.


----------



## claes (Sep 17, 2022)

I still can’t believe they made a public announcement before letting their employees know. Sure, they say they’re not going to lay people off, but good luck with that.


----------



## ypsylon (Sep 17, 2022)

Wow, seriously. Just WOW!

Overwhelming majority of my GPUs are still  EVGA and until Threadripper all my motherboards were exclusively from EVGA, but to be honest there was something in the air for past couple years. 

EVGA basically abandoned EU market which in itself is suicidal if you care about profit margins. All replacements and new things are sent from Taiwan which added ridiculous amount of red tape. Recently EVGA ceased the EVGA bucks without any explanation why. Well now connecting the dots its pretty obvious why all of that happened. 

Well, all I can say. Best of luck chaps and gals. You were sole beacon of light of the corporate IT World where consumer was paramount value. Never, ever experienced product support like EVGA. In one case guys even replaced my ESD dead X99 Classified for free (except 15Euro S&H) despite the fact it was couple months after the warranty period. Love you guys.


----------



## HTC (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Right so let's stop buying their products unless you really have no alternative


I did that many years ago when i found out about "their business practices": i refuse to support a company that engages in such practices, and i enforce such opinion "with my wallet" by buying from their competition.


----------



## AusWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

A little something to remember Evga cards by...


----------



## bket007 (Sep 17, 2022)

it's crazy already that nvidia is shooting itself in the foot with the prices of gpus being too expensive and losing their best gpu company plus rtx everyone doesn't care nvidia is just dead


----------



## Dristun (Sep 17, 2022)

Dear angry ladies and gentlemen, consumer protests don't work, your dreams will come true only if nVidia releases a "new coke" style blunder series themselves or AMD pays and markets itself to the top over the years. And I guarantee you it won't behave any better then. If you're serious about changing anything, get ready to abandon your life for politics and activism and start to look beyond just one corporation.


----------



## The Von Matrices (Sep 17, 2022)

Whenever I bought an EVGA GPU I did so because it was the least expensive one on the market.  I guess I wasn't helping.


----------



## Pumper (Sep 17, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> -Well-founded rumor was that 4000 series GPUs have been sitting in warehouses since early August, waiting for Nvidia to officially release


And like Steve said in a recent video, AIBs don't even know the official pricing on the 4000 series and will only find out with the rest of us when Jensen makes the announcement on stage during the live event. For all we know, everyone will be selling RTX4000 at a loss.


----------



## neatfeatguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Pumper said:


> And like Steve said in a recent video, AIBs don't even know the official pricing on the 4000 series and will only found out with the rest of us when Jensen makes the announcement on stage during the live event. For all we know, everyone will be selling RTX4000 at a loss.



Makes me wonder if any other Nvidia AiBs will follow suit if they keep getting the short end of the stick.....

Or maybe, just maybe, EVGA f'ed things up and are really trying to save face by shifting the blame to Nvidia??? I wonder if the world will ever truly know.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

The margins on the cards are thin & likely getting thinner, you can see that from the profits Nvidia makes & the not so profitable AIB partner results. The biggest issue here is that Nvidia isn't that keen on reducing their margins & this where the partners are getting shafted. Now whether they're getting pummeled to the point of shutting shop, like EVGA, or this is just temporary for bigger partners like ASUS is anyone's guess!


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> The margins on the cards are thin & likely getting thinner, you can see that from the profits Nvidia makes & the not so profitable AIB partner results. The biggest issue here is that Nvidia isn't that keen on reducing their margins & this where the partners are getting shafted. Now whether they're getting pummeled to the point of shutting shop, like EVGA, or this is just temporary for bigger partners like ASUS is anyone's guess!




But throughout the whole cryptomining craze people were pointing to AIB's for taking the majority of extra money - they were supposedly ones that were shipping cards directly to miners by the truckloads, they were the ones that scalped buyers, increased the official prices of their products while the MRSP and Founder's Edition cards remained cheap (although unavailable for most of the buyers).

Conclusion was therefore that all the extra revenue Nvidia showed during the cryptomania was only a tip of an iceberg, the large portion of that extra profit should be in the pockets of AIB partners?


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> But throughout the whole cryptomining craze people were pointing to *AIB's for taking the majority of extra money*


I don't think there's any evidence of that. Back in 2017 it was the retailers or distributors, same before that from what I remember. In 2020 both Nvidia & AMD profited enormously, more than the past rush & while AIB's made a ton there's no evidence that they made the bulk of the profits. You could argue they cut out the middle men by selling directly to the miners but even then most of the profits would be flowing to AMD/Nvidia ~ heck AMD didn't even have an official "MSRP" for a lot of their high end GPU's in the last 2 years.


----------



## bobsled (Sep 17, 2022)

Losing EVGA as a GPU vendor is a blow to  PC enthusiasts. Top quality support, and the last vendor not headquartered in Taiwan or China iirc.


----------



## Luminescent (Sep 17, 2022)

After they tasted that sweet and easy miners money now they are told they have to go back to tiny profits and lots of work, fu...k that.
They won't switch to AMD or Intel because it's the same deal, they make more from a keyboard or PSU.


----------



## demu (Sep 17, 2022)

E*VGA* is committed to graphics cards right down to the name.
Something has to change:


----------



## Dirt Chip (Sep 17, 2022)

EVGA RTX4090 will be the ultimate collector GPU.
Some were menufacter as engineering samples.


----------



## jesdals (Sep 17, 2022)

Listening to GamersNexus report I cant help feel concerned for the employees of EVGA. I seems like the founder wants to go down with the ship and not make a needed generation change in leadership. I do understand the feelings towards Nvidia - but it seems more like a burned out CEO. Hope Vince lands on his feet.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Sep 17, 2022)

also, one less major NV GPU player-> less competition -> higher $$$ for NV GPU`s


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> I don't think there's any evidence of that. Back in 2017 it was the retailers or distributors, same before that from what I remember. In 2020 both Nvidia & AMD profited enormously, more than the past rush & while AIB's made a ton there's no evidence that they made the bulk of the profits. You could argue they cut out the middle men by selling directly to the miners but even then most of the profits would be flowing to AMD/Nvidia ~ heck AMD didn't even have an official "MSRP" for a lot of their high end GPU's in the last 2 years.



But how? By paying Nvidia and AMD actual percentage of the final sales price, not price agreed in advance and calculated from MSRP?


----------



## Dirt Chip (Sep 17, 2022)

also also, EVGA will see a BIG move of people who appreciate and support them as the banner holder aginst NV (bad) practice.
some will buy their stuff as an anti-NV protest.
It is good that their product are top notch for the most part.


----------



## gffermari (Sep 17, 2022)

Dirt Chip said:


> some will buy their stuff as an anti-NV protest.



who buys a worse product in order to punish a company?
The competition only can change things. Not the consumer*.
*in a market with only two players.


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

demu said:


> E*VGA* is committed to graphics cards right down to the name.
> Something has to change:
> View attachment 261966



I bow down to your supreme mspaint skills 



Luminescent said:


> After they tasted that sweet and easy miners money now they are told they have to go back to tiny profits and lots of work, fu...k that.
> They won't switch to AMD or Intel because it's the same deal, they make more from a keyboard or PSU.



I think it's a bit more complicated than that. EVGA was the prime partner for AIB GeForce cards in NVIDIA's largest market, which is the United States, and one of the biggest worldwide in general. It may be wise for EVGA to not burn bridges completely as XFX once did, not to mention that there might be a small cultural role in the current state of affairs. It does not seem to have been a very amicable disagreement, and NVIDIA's justifying their "ngreedia" moniker fast, from the looks of it. As stated earlier in another post, the CEO's words were very carefully chosen. 

If Robert Hallock's successor at AMD is a smart person, I think we just might be surprised soon.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> The margins on the cards are thin & likely getting thinner, you can see that from the profits Nvidia makes & the not so profitable AIB partner results.



what the hell are you talking about, all the AIB's printed money in the crypto crisis, just look at their financials, ASUS and Gigabyte are public companies. Compared to normal years it's insane how results went up









						Gigabyte Technology Co Ltd Financials (2376) - Investing.com
					

This page provides a brief financial summary of Gigabyte Technology Co Ltd as well as the most significant critical numbers from each of its financial reports.




					www.investing.com
				











						Asustek Computer Inc Financials (2357) - Investing.com
					

This page provides a brief financial summary of Asustek Computer Inc as well as the most significant critical numbers from each of its financial reports.




					www.investing.com


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> what the hell are you talking about, all the AIB's printed money in the crypto crisis, just look at their financials, ASUS and Gigabyte are public companies. Compared to normal years it's insane how results went up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you hit your head again or time traveled back to 2020 




Check their latest results, this is a bloodbath literally!








						NVIDIA Announces Financial Results for Second Quarter Fiscal 2023: Gaming Revenues Slashed by a Third
					

NVIDIA (NASDAQ: NVDA) today reported revenue for the second quarter ended July 31, 2022, of $6.70 billion, up 3% from a year ago and down 19% from the previous quarter. GAAP earnings per diluted share for the quarter were $0.26, down 72% from a year ago and down 59% from the previous quarter...




					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Did you hit your head again or time traveled back to 2020
> 
> Check their latest results, this is a bloodbath literally!
> 
> ...



what is wrong with you, no seriously?

their Q2 of 2022 is down, cry me a river. How could they not be down when crypto crazyness ended? 

After 2 years when revenues and profits sky rocketed, results are positive bur down, a "bloodbath". I'm starting a collecting to help the Asus and Gigabytes in this troubled times, if anyone wants to participate, we must help this poor companies.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

We're talking about EVGA & other AIB partners, they're probably taking a loss on lot of these cards as GN said. I have no sympathy for "Ngreedia" & the leather jacket guy 


Bomby569 said:


> I'm starting a collecting to help the Asus and Gigabytes in this troubled times, if anyone wants to participate, we must help this poor companies.


You should do that; I'll contribute with my well wishes for your future endeavor!


----------



## MarsM4N (Sep 17, 2022)

Don't be too harsh on _Nvidia_. The maintenance costs of their _*shiny headquarters*_, highly paid 1st class staff, R&D, it all adds up.
Biggest chunk goes to the poor shareholders. But someone has to finance their decadent lifestyle.  Those who do the actual work should be happy with the bread crumbs.
Blasphemous _EVGA_ should show some gratefulness that they had the privilege to serve _Nvidia_ for well over 20 years. Hail _Nvidia_. /s


----------



## DarkS0ul (Sep 17, 2022)

Nvidia wants to sell cards itself, they've made billions through *crypto*. In addition, the conditions for "pertners" were not very partnership-based. For the last three years or so the PC market has become less and less enjoyable, especially for consumers, gamers. An increasing share of the market in many areas in the hands of fewer and fewer players.
Only two mobile systems (after MS take off Nokia), taking over companies from the gaming industry by giants like Microsoft or by funds. Even the largest gaming companies could be taken over by even larger corporations without any problems. There are fewer and fewer players in the IT hardware and PC hardware markets. And many of them are the same companies that produce for example graphics cards, motherboards, monitors, mice, music cards, drives (SSD).
It is getting more and more expensive for the same, manufacturers create artificial price shelves, make premium products out of ordinary products. Probably spending more on marketing and a different sh*t than on actual progress, efficiency, quality.
Control of everything, for example at Apple, from the fact that the consumer cannot use for example, his own SD cards - billions of earnings. Yes, yes bullsh*t about safety. Cables 2-3 times more expensive, service control, control, control, control = $$$. Control at the expense of customers.
Some people sooner stop being so excited about this market than pay so much for new graphics cards, processors, smartphones and other overvalued products (including gaming).


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

EVGA is definitely different, they sold a lot of cards at MSRP when they could have made more money. Don't get me wrong they still sold a lot over MSRP and profited a lot. Still a bit better.

But the AIB's are just as bad as Nvidia, i don't get this separation, they all made a killing at the consumers expenses and went laughing to the bank. I couldn't have less sympathy for the losses they are having now. Their results shot through the roof, EVGA included as their own CEO said.

Stop chilling for companies, or taking sides on corporate wars.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

That's false equivalence ~ Nvidia sets the MSRP not the board partners! JHH could've done the noble thing & not hiked prices, this isn't oil that is traded at NYSE or FTSE 

Then again the miners could've done the more noble thing & not effed the planet many times over ~ see two can play that game? The companies are hardly blameless, though a lot of the buyers(miners?) at the time should also be shamed!


----------



## Haile Selassie (Sep 17, 2022)

Overproduction.
Reduced demand.
Bad business decisions.
Bad partnership arrangement(s).

That's all there is to it.


----------



## Recus (Sep 17, 2022)

It's a same story as with Club3D. Stopped making NV cards, made two generations of AMD cards and stopped making graphics cards all together. Sparkle, Point of View, Diamond, HIS not making new cards too.
Why Andrew Han killed GPU division instead of stepping down as CEO? Some people just like blame others if business doesn't go as planned.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> That's false equivalence ~ Nvidia sets the MSRP not the board partners! JHH could've done the noble thing & not hiked prices, this isn't oil that is traded at NYSE or FTSE
> 
> Then again the miners could've done the more noble thing & not effed the planet many times over ~ see two can play that game? The companies are hardly blameless, though a lot of the buyers(miners?) at the time should also be shamed!



Suggested price, that's all it is. 
This MSRP bogeyman makes no sense. Like we never seen cards insanely over MSRP.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

There's no suggestions in there, you can't sell below manufacturer set MSRP. Liquidating (excess) inventory or once in a while fire sale is fine, try selling Apple/Nvidia/Intel/AMD products consistently below MSRP & see where that lands you!


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> There's no suggestions in there, you can't sell below manufacturer set MSRP. Liquidating (excess) inventory or once in a while fire sale is fine, try selling Apple/Nvidia/Intel/AMD products consistently below MSRP & see where that lands you!



New cards have been sold below MSRP all the time, especially after the recent crypto end. And on end of life cycles like now. I bought new nvidia cards below MSRP personally, i have no idea what you are talking about.

i guess the focus there is "consistently", but why would you want to do that? lose money? dumping? race to the bottom? shady quality that comes to endanger nvidia brand?


----------



## Dyatlov A (Sep 17, 2022)

Very well, i did not like EVGA, they were bad with me.


----------



## ixi (Sep 17, 2022)

Gmr_Chick said:


> This smells truly fishy. If you as a company make up 40% of North American GPU sales, and a whopping 80% of your overall revenue comes from GPU sales...you don't just walk away from that to focus on the sales of motherboards, PSUs and peripherals.


You need to have balls to stand up for what is right. If you are a leecher then, well, you know the phrase.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> New cards have been* sold below MSRP all the time*, especially after the* recent crypto end*


Sold by who? Are you talking about retailers or AIB partners?

They're clearing inventory. Which is what they usually do. Though admittedly MRP, as it's called here, or MSRP is a dated phenomenon.


Bomby569 said:


> i have no idea what you are talking about.


You clearly don't.


> Slowly, over time, the relationship between EVGA and Nvidia changed from what EVGA considered a true partnership to customer–seller arrangement whereby EVGA was no longer consulted on new product announcements and briefings, not featured at events, and not informed of price changes. On September 7, *Nvidia offered via Best Buy an RTX 3090 Ti for $1,099.99, undercutting EVGA and other partners that were offering their products at $1,399.99. There was no warning of the price cut, and it left the partners with little choice but to sell their inventory at below cost to meet the Nvidia price*. MSI dropped their price to $1,079.99 on New Egg, and EVGA dropped theirs to $1,149.











						EVGA won’t offer Nvidia next-gen series
					

Citing price increases and shrinking margins, EVGA quits Nvidia.




					www.jonpeddie.com
				




Nvidia is competing against & selling to their "partners" ~ seems like an abusive relationship to me! Of course this would affect you less if your cost of operations is lower or you cut costs elsewhere, like warranty or quality components, so maybe that's why MSI/Gigabyte et al are in a better position?


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Sold by who? Are you talking about retailers or AIB partners?
> 
> They're clearing inventory. Which is what they usually do. Though admittedly MRP, as it's called here, or MSRP is a dated phenomenon.
> 
> ...



MSRP is the RETAIL price, it has nothing to do with the prices dealt between Nvidia and the AIB's the AIB's and the retailers, i'm clearly not the one in the dark here.

Best buy has some agreement to move nvidia cards, they decided to cut prices to move inventory, that's normal, it's not losing money, it's making what you can from a product that doesn't move and it's at the end of life.
Other retailers are doing the same all the time and i'm sure they aren't buying form ASUS at 1000 and selling at 800 to lose money themselves, the AIB's are also losing money and selling below MSRP, EVGA said so, they are losing money on every card sold now believing the EVGA words.


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## Dave65 (Sep 17, 2022)

I knew Nvida was greedy as shit. Very sad tho EVGA made the best.


----------



## ZoneDymo (Sep 17, 2022)

Dave65 said:


> I knew Nvida was greedy as shit. Very sad tho EVGA made the best.



to me its a bit sad to see fanboys now having to juggle this in their mind so adamant that their lord and savior big N cant be the bad guy, that they throw their once so respected EVGA under the bus as a bad company.

When really what more seems to be happening, as GN said, that Nvidia is trying to be more like apple which is ultimately rather anti competition and thus becomes rather anti consumer....but hey just keep giving them more money, that 85 - 10 - 5 % split on steam sure shows there is fair healthy competition going on......


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Stop chilling for companies, or taking sides on corporate wars.


No u.



Bomby569 said:


> New cards have been sold below MSRP all the time, especially after the recent crypto end.


That's a liquidation event, and different.  It does happen more often than he is implying though.



ZoneDymo said:


> to me its a bit sad to see fanboys now having to juggle this in their mind so adamant that their lord and savior big N cant be the bad guy, that they throw their once so respected EVGA under the bus as a bad company.


Are you reading a different thread or something?


----------



## Valantar (Sep 17, 2022)

Haven't followed the 8 pages (!) of discussion here, but going by the GN coverage, good on EVGA for making a mostly principled decision that must no doubt have been extremely difficult - though I also expect them to stand by their word of not laying off employees due to this.

Hopefully this is a big enough move to make Nvidia reconsider their treatment of business partners - it's been widely reported how they operate on razor-thin margins, which inevitably trickles down to consumers in the form of inferior products and engineering shortcuts. And, of course, the concept of a first-party Founders Edition is inherently anticompetitive with said partners - moving to a model more like Google's Nexus phones ("official", but in partnership with someone) would be far more fair. But my real hope is that Nvidia can realize that they can't expect 50-60% margins on chips while maintaining working partnerships with AIB makers - and that such a shift would then also carry over to AMD and the industry more broadly. Yes, chipmaking is massively expensive and requires having tons of cash on hand, but the ongoing trend of chipmakers working explicitly to raise their margins is very troubling in the mid-to-long term.


----------



## oxidized (Sep 17, 2022)

Non-competition agreement? I can't think of anything else, if all they said is factual and they have no intention of changing their minds.



ZoneDymo said:


> but hey just keep giving them more money, that 85 - 10 - 5 % split on steam sure shows there is fair healthy competition going on......



As long as AMD is not competitive in that regard...


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> That's a liquidation event, and different.  It does happen more often than he is implying though.



But isn't the implication that they don't let them if needed, that's not true, they can. They can clearly go way over MSRP and below, it's a proven fact.

But why more often? Nvidia needs to assure there is some quality standards. MSI would be more than happy to sell you a Ventus 4090 with a 1mm heatshink and one of those server fans running at 20000 rpm if they let them.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 17, 2022)

Gmr_Chick said:


> This smells truly fishy. If you as a company make up 40% of North American GPU sales, and a whopping 80% of your overall revenue comes from GPU sales...you don't just walk away from that to focus on the sales of motherboards, PSUs and peripherals.


You do if Nvidia drops the retail price of a 3090 Ti to $300 below your price, a price that's at a loss for you .

And you then know, they'll do it again, and DGAF about you and yours.

On the cards since 2016 founder's education rolled out.
Oh and Nvidia's ownership of Arm would have been the same.

Nvidia wants to be Apple, and doesn't care who gets stomped out and would prefer no competition.


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## john_ (Sep 17, 2022)

Nvidia backstabbed it's AIBs with all those Super and Ti versions. Where AIBs had a huge price range to exploit between a limited number of models, after the Super and Ti versions they lost that. Nvidia grabbed part of those profits leaving AIBs to try to sell lower tier models at close or even higher prices than models that where one step above based on their GPU, just in an effort to improve their profit margins.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> You do if Nvidia drops the retail price of a 3090 Ti to $300 below your price, a price that's at a loss for you .



So EVGA's plan was to keep selling 3090ti at the MSRP when demand plummeted, there's a lot of used cards in the market and the new cards are coming in weeks. That sounds like a stupid business plan to me. Of course prices had to come down to clear inventory.
They just f'ed up their inventory, to many cards in stock counting that the crypto demand would never stop.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> So EVGA's plan was to keep selling 3090ti at the MSRP when demand plummeted, there's a lot of used cards in the market and the new cards are coming in weeks. That sounds like a stupid business plan to me. Of course prices had to come down to clear inventory.
> They just f'ed up their inventory, to many cards in stock counting that the crypto demand would never stop.


Defender's unite.


You have no idea what they're contact was.

But a contract determined the allocation long ago.

Nvidia determined their MSRP liquidly, on the fly since day one.
Every one else just had to roll with it.


----------



## Aquinus (Sep 17, 2022)

Just another reason why I will continue to not support nVidia. Scummy business practices, plain and simple. I don't care if they have the best hardware, they're assholes.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> *But isn't the implication that they don't let them if needed, that's not true, they can. They can clearly go way over MSRP and below, it's a proven fact.*
> 
> But why more often? Nvidia needs to assure there is some quality standards. MSI would be more than happy to sell you a Ventus 4090 with a 1mm heatshink and one of those server fans running at 20000 rpm if they let them.


Wrong again ~








Nvidia has a top & bottom limit for some (high end) cards, keep doing their job though ~ *free PR*


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Wrong again ~
> 
> 
> 
> ...



cards were sold by 2 and 3x MSRP and then went below MSRP, those are indisputable facts, you have to have been in a cave for the past 2 years to not know this. This is the real world, i don't do make believe.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Did you not understand what the heck happened? If Nvidia sets the MSRP for 3090 at ~3k the AIB partner can't sell at it 5k, now that's a good thing for the consumer but wait!

What if that board partner bought the GPU (chip) at *1.5k* & couldn't sell it below 2.5k to make any profits? Just a random number so don't be pedantic.

Then Nvidia undercuts you by selling their own cards at 2k ~ win/win right? No I guess sucks to be you EVGA, or MSI/ASUS et al.

Are you pretending to not understand how this rolled or you just don't care


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 17, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Haven't followed the 8 pages (!) of discussion here, but going by the GN coverage, good on EVGA for making a mostly principled decision that must no doubt have been extremely difficult - though I also expect them to stand by their word of not laying off employees due to this.
> 
> Hopefully this is a big enough move to make Nvidia reconsider their treatment of business partners - it's been widely reported how they operate on razor-thin margins, which inevitably trickles down to consumers in the form of inferior products and engineering shortcuts. And, of course, the concept of a first-party Founders Edition is inherently anticompetitive with said partners - moving to a model more like Google's Nexus phones ("official", but in partnership with someone) would be far more fair. But my real hope is that Nvidia can realize that they can't expect 50-60% margins on chips while maintaining working partnerships with AIB makers - and that such a shift would then also carry over to AMD and the industry more broadly. Yes, chipmaking is massively expensive and requires having tons of cash on hand, but the ongoing trend of chipmakers working explicitly to raise their margins is very troubling in the mid-to-long term.


How would you feel if this developed into an anti-trust suit? and only EVGA with balls to stand up


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Did you not understand what the heck happened? If Nvidia sets the MSRP for 3090 at ~3k the AIB partner can't sell at it 5k, now that's a good thing for the consumer but wait!
> 
> What if that board partner bought the GPU (chip) at *1.5k* & couldn't sell it below 2.5k to make any profits? Just a random number so don't be pedantic.
> 
> ...



that's inventory management. Probably shouldn't have bought at such a high volume and price before the crash. 
The claim made over and over again that EVGA bussiness plan was to keep the same MSRP, keep selling 3090ti at the MSRP when demand plummeted, there's a lot of used cards in the market and the new cards are coming in weeks. That sounds like a stupid business plan to me. Of course prices had to come down to clear inventory.
They just f'ed up their inventory, to many cards in stock counting that the crypto demand would never stop.

Nvidia shouldn't lower MSRP, no one should lower prices. The end result was those were never going to be sold.

Absurd point made there mate.


----------



## PapaTaipei (Sep 17, 2022)

The way I see it, I don't even understand what's the point for NV or AMD to have other companies selling what they could sell themself. There is definitely a reason but it's 100% not what ppl think.


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> that's inventory management. Probably shouldn't have bought at such a high volume and price before the crash.
> The claim made over and over again that EVGA bussiness plan was to keep the same MSRP, keep selling 3090ti at the MSRP when demand plummeted, there's a lot of used cards in the market and the new cards are coming in weeks. That sounds like a stupid business plan to me. Of course prices had to come down to clear inventory.
> They just f'ed up their inventory, to many cards in stock counting that the crypto demand would never stop.
> 
> ...


Look EVGA's cost of operations is probably much higher than say ASUS, is that why they're kinda going under? Yes, but there's always the argument to be made that Nvidia drove them off the cliff & that's also totally valid.

Basically *if you're not big enough don't expect to stay in the market* for any lengths of time ~ this is how businesses worldwide are going & generally speaking *quality of components/after sales service & consumer trust is also going down to the bin*! The ones at the very top ~ QC/Intel/Apple/Nvidia & yes AMD are largely responsible for this.

We can choose any side we want to but we're just choosing the lesser evil & siding with EVGA is doing that *IMO*.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 17, 2022)

Ngreedia pitching its next victim.
Hey kid, I've got a line on a whopper of a deal just for you!!! I'm gonna partner up with ya and I will make you rich. 
This deal is so generous that not only am I gonna lock you into a suffocating supply deal but I'm gonna directly compete against you for the 1st 6 months that our new shiney juiced up item hits the street! BUT... I just might change my mind and keep right on competin against ya if business is good! Just think, if you sell hundreds of thousands of units you'll have enough loot to pay your newly hired employees and buy a car! Sounds great huh?!


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

maxfly said:


> Ngreedia pitching its next victim.
> Hey kid, I've got a line on a whopper of a deal just for you!!! I'm gonna partner up with ya and I will make you rich.
> This deal is so generous that not only am I gonna lock you into a suffocating supply deal but I'm gonna directly compete against you for the 1st 6 months that our new shiney juiced up item hits the street! BUT... I just might change my mind and keep right on competin against ya if business is good! Just think, if you sell hundreds of thousands of units you'll have enough loot to pay your newly hired employees and buy a car! Sounds great huh?!


Actually it does, where do I sign up?


----------



## damric (Sep 17, 2022)

It seems to me, the logical person to blame...

Is...

Raja


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

damric said:


> It seems to me, the logical person to blame...
> 
> Is...
> 
> Raja


Well naturally.  It's his fault EVGA can't look to Intel as an actual option!!!! /s

Actually, forget the /s.  It probably is.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2022)

Weird, though evga wasnt doing great lately, one meh launch after another.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> Look EVGA's cost of operations is probably much higher than say ASUS, is that why they're kinda going under? Yes, but there's always the argument to be made that Nvidia drove them off the cliff & that's also totally valid.
> 
> Basically *if you're not big enough don't expect to stay in the market* for any lengths of time ~ this is how businesses worldwide are going & generally speaking *quality of components/after sales service & consumer trust is also going down to the bin*! The ones at the very top ~ QC/Intel/Apple/Nvidia & yes AMD are largely responsible for this.
> 
> We can choose any side we want to but we're just choosing the lesser evil & siding with EVGA is doing that *IMO*.



it just means if you're smaller you have to be more carefull, manage inventory much more wisely. They tried to play big and didn't had the strength for it.


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## the54thvoid (Sep 17, 2022)

On the pricing, I thought much of that was wholesalers and distributors ramping up profits, or at least selling to miners before inventory even reached retail channels, which were then left with no choice to pay over the odds for highly limited stock and pass it on to us.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> that's inventory management. *Probably shouldn't have bought at such a high volume and price before the crash*.
> The claim made over and over again that EVGA bussiness plan was to keep the same MSRP, keep selling 3090ti at the MSRP when demand plummeted, there's a lot of used cards in the market and the new cards are coming in weeks. That sounds like a stupid business plan to me. Of course prices had to come down to clear inventory.
> They just f'ed up their inventory, to many cards in stock counting that the crypto demand would never stop.
> 
> ...


Your the one being absurd, no one is debating the price needed lowering.
But Evga didn't get to choose how much to pay Nvidia, when and what for, That's the f£#@&g Point.

They can't continue to have a random amount turn up without notice for a price they can't set.

Then sell in opposition to the guy they bought chip's off WHO CAN set his buying prices and sale price pretty much on a whim and at a advantage.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Your the one being absurd, no one is debating the price needed lowering.
> But Evga didn't get to choose how much to pay Nvidia, when and what for, That's the f£#@&g Point.
> 
> They can't continue to have a random amount turn up without notice for a price they can't set.
> ...



Can nvidia choose how much to pay Samsung for the chips? i'm sorry but your point makes no sense.

It's up to EVGA to decide if they can make a profit or not and how to manage their inventory, with the conditions it's dealt with.


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## R0H1T (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> it just means if you're smaller you have to be more carefull, manage inventory much more wisely. They tried to play big and didn't had the strength for it.


You just continue to deny basic reality & market dynamics of operating in the world today, have you like run a business recently? *In the world of hardware these days sell more, & more & even more is the only way (smaller) companies survive*. Because the largest piece of the pie is already taken at the top!








You can't be selling something which is mass market, not so unique & still expect to survive without major volumes!


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> You just continue to deny basic reality & market dynamics of operating in the world today, have you like run a business recently? *In the world of hardware these days sell more, & more & even more is the only way (smaller) companies survive*. Because the largest piece of the pie is already taken at the top!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




the big guy abuses the little guy, more news at 11

yes very very hard to survive seeing profits and revenue sky rocket, sad, sad times for the industry.


----------



## Diverge (Sep 17, 2022)

Hopefully this leads to other companies doing the same so AMD and Nvidia have to compete on price and power efficiency. GPU's have been out of hand for a long time.


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## AnarchoPrimitiv (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Can nvidia choose how much to pay Samsung for the chips? i'm sorry but your point makes no sense.
> 
> It's up to EVGA to decide if they can make a profit or not and how to manage their inventory, with the conditions it's dealt with.


Are you denying the fact that, with respect to AIBs, Nvidia has total control?  Did you watch the Gamers Nexus video on this subject?  Nvidia controls everything., and this has been confirmed by other AIBs as well, especially the fact that Nvidia is notoriously difficult to work with...based on Huang's ego, this sounds correct.  BTW, apparently EVGA was Nvidia's largest AIB partner, with respect to EVGA selling more GPUs than any other partner, and even they didn't have any influence with Nvidia.  EVGA isn't some incompetent small actor, but it seems that you're implying just that idea.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

AnarchoPrimitiv said:


> Are you denying the fact that, with respect to AIBs, Nvidia has total control?  Did you watch the Gamers Nexus video on this subject?  Nvidia controls everything., and this has been confirmed by other AIBs as well, especially the fact that Nvidia is notoriously difficult to work with...based on Huang's ego, this sounds correct.  BTW, apparently EVGA was Nvidia's largest AIB partner, with respect to EVGA selling more GPUs than any other partner, and even they didn't have any influence with Nvidia.  EVGA isn't some incompetent small actor, but it seems that you're implying just that idea.



i'm not denying things i didn't talked about, no. That i can confirm.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 17, 2022)

Pretty bummed about this personally owned EVGA 680's, 980ti, 1080's,1080ti, 3080ti..... All were great and still work to this day. Their customer service seems to be the best of any of the Nvidia partners although Nvidia direct CS seems pretty good to me as well. Even though they have no plans to make any I would definitely buy an EVGA Radeon card as I am not a huge fan of Sapphire or XFX.


----------



## mechtech (Sep 17, 2022)

Just blame covid


----------



## Redwoodz (Sep 17, 2022)

Nvidia is the best company name ever created. It means exactly what it says(Latin). WHY do you people keep supporting the racket?????


----------



## nguyen (Sep 17, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Pretty bummed about this personally owned EVGA 680's, 980ti, 1080's,1080ti, 3080ti..... All were great and still work till this day. Their customer service seems to be the best of any of the Nvidia partners although Nvidia direct CS seems pretty good to me as well. Even though they have no plans to make any I would definitely buy an EVGA Radeon card as I am not a huge fan of Sapphire or XFX.



Honestly I have never dealt with CS from any companies other than EVGA (4 dead 7800GT back in the day) and I bought GPU almost every gen for 20 years, every single GPU from other brands that I bought just live way too long LOL


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 17, 2022)

nguyen said:


> Honestly I have never dealt with CS from any companies other than EVGA (4 dead 7800GT back in the day) and I bought GPU almost every gen for 20 years, every single GPU from other brands that I bought just live way too long LOL



I've owned multiple gpu from every manufacturer as well only XFX, Sapphire, and Powercolor cards have ever died on me.


----------



## Space Lynx (Sep 17, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Pretty bummed about this personally owned EVGA 680's, 980ti, 1080's,1080ti, 3080ti..... All were great and still work to this day. Their customer service seems to be the best of any of the Nvidia partners although Nvidia direct CS seems pretty good to me as well. Even though they have no plans to make any I would definitely buy an EVGA Radeon card as I am not a huge fan of Sapphire or XFX.



the Asus STRIX line is good, albeit pricey, and MSI is not bad.

when 1080 ti was relatively new I had a gigabyte windforce 1080 ti, and it was decent. the fans seemed a little cheap on it though.

I am probably going for Asus STRIX for my next gen card.


----------



## fluxc0d3r (Sep 17, 2022)

Never bought an EVGA product ever, Asus and MSI have much better GPU coolers now than EVGA, which are much more quieter. Most people nowadays care more about noise more than if it's got beefy capacitors, thus the Noctua GPU coolers.  

New EVGA motherboards take almost forever to get released, doubt many people would buy them when they have already built their new system months ago. 

And they want to compete elsewhere in the market where NZXT and other smaller companies have dominated over the years. 

They could lower their ridiculous high prices and save their GPU market, but nooo...they care too much about their brand cachet.


----------



## CyberCT (Sep 17, 2022)

openbox1980 said:


> When I was selling computer parts, the EVGA 2080ti black edition was the worst. I had so many returns on that model.



I have the that exact black edition ... bought with a coupon code for $950 directly from EVGA. While it was very loud (I didn't know about undervolting yet), I bought their AIO cooler for it ... and not it runs like a champ and overclocks VERY well. Better than any of my 30 series cards.


----------



## oxidized (Sep 17, 2022)

Redwoodz said:


> Nvidia is the best company name ever created. It means exactly what it says(Latin). WHY do you people keep supporting the racket?????



I haven't been supporting the "racket" for a while now, as i still own a 1060, but there's no option, AMD GPUs suck, have lots of problems with drivers and are subpar, beside that nvidia doing nvidia isn't the problem here, otherwise evga could've just switched to AMD, just like XFX and others did before, so there's probably another reason for this to be happening.


----------



## Khonjel (Sep 17, 2022)

I think shrinking profit margins have been the biggest factor. GN video says Graphics Cards are 78% of their revenue but their 20% revenue PSU business brings 300% profit of the GPU one. That is insane.

Although one could argue that most of the expense on their GPU business could be overall R&D and stellar after-sales service they provide.


----------



## Dudebro-420 (Sep 17, 2022)

murr said:


> Guess they're going to stick with just doing power supplies and motherboards.


Yes that's what the article said.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Can nvidia choose how much to pay Samsung for the chips? i'm sorry but your point makes no sense.
> 
> It's up to EVGA to decide if they can make a profit or not and how to manage their inventory, with the conditions it's dealt with.


They were invested in Nvidia only and ifyour only partner wont meet you in the middle you are stuck between rock and bricked gpu 

Its like your on demand subscription to Netflix. You started loving the service for its offerings, but suddenly you no longer pay 6 eur a month, but 8. And then they start pushing their own ads on top of it. And then they want 10 eur per month in 2023-24.

Funny how it all works the same in commerce eh


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

mechtech said:


> Just blame covid


If covid was still a major factor that might work.  Funny how you need facts on your side like that.


----------



## Hyderz (Sep 17, 2022)

after watching steve's video, i recalled that EVGA was the first to limit the purchase of gpu from their website 
with a ticketing system reply to email so that they could get GPUs to gamers insteads of scalpers or miners.. 

nvidia having stocks months ahead of its AIB and no information/specs given to AIB, snatching away with early sales


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> They were invested in Nvidia only and ifyour only partner wont meet you in the middle you are stuck between rock and bricked gpu
> 
> Its like your on demand subscription to Netflix. You started loving the service for its offerings, but suddenly you no longer pay 6 eur a month, but 8. And then they start pushing their own ads on top of it. And then they want 10 eur per month in 2023-24.
> 
> Funny how it all works the same in commerce eh



In businesses never trust no one, it way past a partnership, it was so poisoned that it caused this. They were too dependent on nvidia.
I think their CEO is playing on a different league from someone else, surely a good person, different for the better, the queue proved it. But this is businesses and everyone was playing high level chess, he was playing chutes and ladders. There are no friendships in business. 
Everyone else that plays both sides seems to be better off.


----------



## Makaveli (Sep 17, 2022)

MentalAcetylide said:


> Damn, wasn't expecting this. I'm really enjoying their Kingpin 3090 card & its cooling capability. Well, I'm guessing one of three things can happen.
> #1. EVGA had something planned for a while now to mitigate this exiting of the GPU market and they will succeed if they play their cards(no pun intended) right.
> #2. EVGA will steadily decline into mediocrity, like 3DFX(remember their voodoo cards?), and be bought out by someone else or dissipate into nothingness.
> #3. Their CEO is making a big mistake & ends up getting replaced because of unhappy shareholders in the company?
> ...



#3

EVGA is a private company not public and Andrew Han is the founder and CEO there will be no share holders voting him out.

And to be honest I would never make my company public just for this reason. I have full control not board members when I founded the company.

Things like this are shedding a light on the type of company NV is and the same reason Microsoft ditched them yet so many people blindy follow...


----------



## erek (Sep 17, 2022)

I’m just hoping that pompous & somewhat arrogant EVGA Jacob Freemen social media influencer will finally relinquish / put up for sale his nVidia GeForce FX 5800 Ultra. That i need, tbh


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1293410111780610048


----------



## PapaTaipei (Sep 17, 2022)

Where is the popcorn? KEKW


----------



## damric (Sep 17, 2022)

I guess I don't feel sorry for them. I was on the waiting list since day one and never got an email saying it was my turn to try and get a card. Now that the fruit is rotten they email me at least twice a day trying to sell me that rotten stock. Maybe AIBs shouldn't have prioritized bulk miner sales. AIBs to me feel dirty, like car dealerships. Oh and my wife just had to get her bank to authorize a chargeback for a new EVGA PSU that was DOA that they would not RMA. If EVGA gets into the graphics card game again, I advise them to use better components like capacitors instead of inflating the price with RGB crap.

Anyways, since my Uncle Pat has never messaged me back, even when my dad broke his hip last year, I figure I'd make him into a meme for you.






My dad talks with his hands like that too. I think it's a Gelsinger thing.


----------



## Makaveli (Sep 17, 2022)

AusWolf said:


> A little something to remember Evga cards by...
> 
> View attachment 261957



I also have something used as a dedicated Physx card in my i7-970 7970Ghz + GTX650 superclocked


----------



## pavle (Sep 17, 2022)

Interesting, but not so surprising; nvidia has been toxic to their customers way too many times throughout the years and no wonder - to their partners too.
nvidia seems to be going the 3dfx way slowly, but surely. Perhaps we shall see the day they close down in shame, like 3dfx did. Rejoice for eVGA for having the character to end being intoxicated.


----------



## erek (Sep 17, 2022)

pavle said:


> Interesting, but not so surprising; nvidia has been toxic to their customers way too many times throughout the years and no wonder - to their partners too.
> nvidia seems to be going the 3dfx way slowly, but surely. Perhaps we shall see the day they close down in shame, like 3dfx did. Rejoice for eVGA for having the character to end being intoxicated.


Aren’t nvidia making a killing in their dedicated data center and enterprise AI acceleration and supercomputing stacks though?  Seems they’re less interested in enthusiasts and consumers gaming


----------



## freeagent (Sep 17, 2022)

pavle said:


> nvidia seems to be going the 3dfx way slowly, but surely


That’s because Nvidia is 3dfx


----------



## AsRock (Sep 17, 2022)

Good on them, i hope they make it work out.


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Sep 17, 2022)

Oh baby, my GTX 980 KPE just lifted easily 400$ in value!!

Thank you EVGA!!!


----------



## Dr. Dro (Sep 17, 2022)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Oh baby, my GTX 980 KPE just lifted easily 400$ in value!!
> 
> Thank you EVGA!!!



LOL, you wish. Great card though. Mine did 1550 MHz on air, I loved it. Shame I had to sell it.


----------



## ShrimpBrime (Sep 17, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> LOL, you wish. Great card though. Mine did 1550 MHz on air, I loved it. Shame I had to sell it.


XD, of course I wish!!! man can dream can't he??!!!

I'm in the process of modifying mine. In fact that's why I'm logged in right now.








						TechPowerUp
					






					www.techpowerup.com


----------



## defaultluser (Sep 17, 2022)

well sure, higher margins

but where's that 80% loss in total revenue going to come from? its not like Gamestop's being anywhere near ve  stupid( and closing all retail stores tomorrow!)

*wouldn't it make a lot more sense here to cut low-end cards until the market recovers (its what they already do for their tiny mobo market?)*


----------



## maxfly (Sep 17, 2022)

erek said:


> Aren’t nvidia making a killing in their dedicated data center and enterprise AI acceleration and supercomputing stacks though?  Seems they’re less interested in enthusiasts and consumers gaming


Not quite as well since Tesla and GM pulled out and decided to roll their own.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> In businesses never trust no one, it way past a partnership, it was so poisoned that it caused this. They were too dependent on nvidia.
> I think their CEO is playing on a different league from someone else, surely a good person, different for the better, the queue proved it. But this is businesses and everyone was playing high level chess, he was playing chutes and ladders. There are no friendships in business.
> Everyone else that plays both sides seems to be better off.



Was the partnership poisoned then? We don't know that.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> In businesses never trust no one, it way past a partnership, it was so poisoned that it caused this. They were too dependent on nvidia.
> I think their CEO is playing on a different league from someone else, surely a good person, different for the better, the queue proved it. But this is businesses and everyone was playing high level chess, he was playing chutes and ladders. There are no friendships in business.
> Everyone else that plays both sides seems to be better off.


Read some shit in my time, now Evga should have diversified, what into motherboard, PSU , keyboards and mice, they have.
AMD cards they couldn't do because Huang said so.

Oh and Nvidia bought the chips, do you think they sold them on at cost, of f£##ng course not.

They had ample lead time, and a BOM cost advantage And set the price on a whim, Ass hattery.


----------



## efikkan (Sep 17, 2022)

I'm sad to see one less participant in the AIB market.

But regarding their quality, it has not been the best in recent generations;
- 1070/1080 (and more?) had thermal pads without contact with the cooler. This is a major design flaw which wasn't noticed until large quantities of cards were shipped. This means their cards didn't get even basic QA before mass production. This was a big red flag for me, and was the time I stopped recommending EVGA.
- Their 2080 Ti cards had design flaws which lead to very large amounts of RMAs.
- I believe their RMA rates have been high with RTX 3000 series too, but haven't looked into why.
When expensive models get high RMA rates, especially ones which can't be compensated by Nvidia, it quickly cuts into their profit margins.



TheinsanegamerN said:


> It smells awfully fishy. One of the big complaints is "the complexity of modern GPUs" which is RICH coming from the guy who greenlit the K|ingp|n lineup. And you could just.....not make the 4090/4080? And he cant make any money? Wouldnt we have heard about this from smaller AIBs by now?


The margins for AIBs on base models are very tiny, but for the premium ones they are very good. EVGA is known for selling large volumes premium versions of their high-end models, and considering two years of record sales, there is no reason why they shouldn't make good money, if they made solid products.



Chrispy_ said:


> 80% of their REVENUE made one third of their profit.
> 
> Do the math; That's pretty damning against Nvidia.


That's probably because their peripherals and PSUs are just white label products, right?
With decent brand recognition, those are "easy money" with little risk and development cost. The downside of such products are they add little value to the market, and eventuelly their brand recognition is likely going to fade.

I do hope they end up making AMD or Intel graphics cards, or if this is some kind of power play, get better terms with Nvidia.

And for clarity, I'm not picking sides here.



Dr. Dro said:


> MLID is a fool and no one should take him seriously. I used to hang out in an AMD fan discord where a member straight up fabricated the SKU list for Zen 2 CPUs and he posted it verbatim back in the day. It was hilarious. Treat anything that comes out of rumor mill channels as rumors and with massive doses of salt.


Him and many other similar channels have been busted countless times for just reciting random speculation from forums/Reddit/etc. and claiming they have inside sources. Massive amounts of salt is irrelevant, they should be ignored once you catch them lying. They make their business lying to people, so you shouldn't trust anything they say.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> they can't, this is assuming Intel continues with their GPU sojourn.


And they're going to. AMD and NVidia are quickly going to have what they haven't had in over 15years, serious competition other than each other. Nvidia needs to pull their head out of their butt and play nice with their AIB's.


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## Ferrum Master (Sep 17, 2022)

You really think nvidia cares for gaming anymore as such?

Compute, datacenters, AI assist... 

The crypto affair hiking using GPU targeted for us mere mortals was a lucky income accident for them.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Was the partnership poisoned then? We don't know that.



according to their CEO it seems so, they tried many times to talk to them he said.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Any advice on a good partner nvidia side?


I'm with you there. Gonna have to sort it out myself. PNY and Galax are on my current shortlist. Them and EVGA are who I currently buy from so the loss of EVGA means I'm going to have to source a third. I'll tell you who's not going to be on that list, Gigabyte and MSI. They can eat poo for the moment.


----------



## Vayra86 (Sep 17, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> according to their CEO it seems so, they tried many times to talk to them he said.


Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle, in the business sense.

EVGA was doing a very long term warranty, pushed high bin and premium chips, etc. Maybe they covered a niche that was killing margins? Maybe, their niche was getting priced out of the market by competition, or they see an impending collapse because of inflation and perhaps recession? And alongside all of that, they've been having several screw ups in the past few generations, have redesigned coolers several times. All I see with EVGA is high cost with little payoff. Its not like they gained share as an AIB in the meantime. Its also no secret Asia does things cheaper.

And I didn't even mention the impact of mining, its bad for stable business and we know Nvidia can walk away smiling.


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## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'm with you there. Gonna have to sort it out myself. PNY and Galax are on my current shortlist. Them and EVGA are who currently buy from so loss of EVGA means I'm going to have to source a third. I'll tell you who's not going to be on that list, Gigabyte and MSI. They can eat poo for the moment.


Pretty much where I am, except I don't know much about GALAX.  May have to take a look.  PNY I have owned in the past though and they are better than their subdued cooler design would suggest.  Good cards.


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## thesmokingman (Sep 17, 2022)

Makaveli said:


> Things like this are shedding a light on the type of company NV is and the same reason Microsoft ditched them yet so many people blindy follow...


NV also just lost one of the biggest players left in the autnomous vehicle market. There's six players besides the giant Tesla whom already dumped Nvidia wholesale so now with GM's Cruise doing the same and moving on. It's gonna signal the rest of the players cuz they are like really fkn far behind Tesla... Is it the chips or the brains... seems Cruise is thinking its the chips! Bad sign for the biggest aholes in the room Nvidia.


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## oxrufiioxo (Sep 17, 2022)

Anyone who thinks Nvidia will sell less gpus becuase of this is smoking some good $h!+. All the allocation that was going to Evga will just end up with other AIB. The only thing this does is make it easier to buy a Aorus, Strix, Gaming X trio, or Founders edition model etc.



R-T-B said:


> Pretty much where I am, except I don't know much about GALAX.  May have to take a look.  PNY I have owned in the past though and they are better than their subdued cooler design would suggest.  Good cards.



The only PNY card I've ever messed around with was a 3090 XLR8 the cooler was so bad the 3080 Suprim and FTW3 card I built systems with were both faster in Timespy. Could have just been a one off but we repasted it multiple times and couldn't get it to perform like a typical 3090.

It sold on ebay for $2800 though so it served a purpose I guess.


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## R-T-B (Sep 17, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> The only PNY card I've ever messed around with was a 3090 XLR8 the cooler was so bad the 3080 Suprim and FTW3 card I built systems with were both faster in Timespy. Could have just been a one off but we repasted it multiple times and couldn't get it to perform like a typical 3090.
> 
> It sold on ebay for $2800 though so it served a purpose I guess.


Well the last one I dealt with was pascal era, but they are more "quality board, average cooler" in my (limited) experience.   In an ideal world I wish they had both good cooling and reliable boards, but meh.  We are running short on good options thats for sure.


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## Colddecked (Sep 17, 2022)

Vayra86 said:


> Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle, in the business sense.
> 
> EVGA was doing a very long term warranty, pushed high bin and premium chips, etc. Maybe they covered a niche that was killing margins? Maybe, their niche was getting priced out of the market by competition, or they see an impending collapse because of inflation and perhaps recession? And alongside all of that, they've been having several screw ups in the past few generations, have redesigned coolers several times. All I see with EVGA is high cost with little payoff. Its not like they gained share as an AIB in the meantime. Its also no secret Asia does things cheaper.
> 
> And I didn't even mention the impact of mining, its bad for stable business and we know Nvidia can walk away smiling.



Everything you said is true.  The straw that broke the camels back is Nvidia's Founder Edition cards being sold out of Best Buy.  At msrp there's no way AIBs can compete, they're literally fighting over scraps.  They should've just had a reference design that they gave to their partners, but they want the whole freaking pie.


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## ixi (Sep 17, 2022)

ShrimpBrime said:


> Oh baby, my GTX 980 KPE just lifted easily 400$ in value!!
> 
> Thank you EVGA!!!


Does the shirt come with gpu as well as buying new gpu?



Colddecked said:


> Everything you said is true.  The straw that broke the camels back is Nvidia's Founder Edition cards being sold out of Best Buy.  At msrp there's no way AIBs can compete, they're literally fighting over scraps.  They should've just had a reference design that they gave to their partners, but they want the whole freaking pie.



Yeah, intel and amd come on. There were two new gpu brands from Asian side as well, but havent heard anything new. :{


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 17, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Pretty much where I am, except I don't know much about GALAX.  May have to take a look.  PNY I have owned in the past though and they are better than their subdued cooler design would suggest.  Good cards.


Palit is another solid brand, but they don't sell much in North America.


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## Denver (Sep 17, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Anyone who thinks Nvidia will sell less gpus becuase of this is smoking some good $h!+. All the allocation that was going to Evga will just end up with other AIB. The only thing this does is make it easier to buy a Aorus, Strix, Gaming X trio, or Founders edition model etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I not only think, but I'm sure that Nvidia will sell considerably less GPUs, not only for treating AIB partners like garbage but for the end of mining, and also because of the global crisis among other things.


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## ShrimpBrime (Sep 17, 2022)

ixi said:


> Does the shirt come with gpu as well as buying new gpu?


Used sweaty shirt additional 45$ plus shipping.


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## AsRock (Sep 17, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Read some shit in my time, now Evga should have diversified, what into motherboard, PSU , keyboards and mice, they have.
> AMD cards they couldn't do because Huang said so.
> 
> Oh and Nvidia bought the chips, do you think they sold them on at cost, of f£##ng course not.
> ...



And have a name change too while at it,  maybe ePsU.. HAHAHAHA


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## maxfly (Sep 17, 2022)

Don't get it twisted. Ngreedia will sell everything they truck over to BB. Founders Edition cards will sell juuust fine, like they always have. Ngreedia will make out like the greedy asshats they are. While they happily undercut their partners when sales are at their most coveted, during the release quarter. Great guy to do business with that leather jacket knucklehead eh?

Something that hasn't been talked about at all is what exactly the EVGA employees had to say about all of this when they spoke to TPU? All of this speculation is getting repetitive as hell. I'm dieing to find out what the legitimate information is.


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## Totally (Sep 17, 2022)

64K said:


> This news was just totally unexpected and came right out of the blue for me.



I'm not surprised this is the conclusion everytime there's a disruption in the gpu space. Nvidia plays favorites and one of their 'partners' gets left out in the cold, xfx, bfg, and after playing second fiddle to direct sales miners they reached the end of the line. With mining now in decline nvidia miraculously all a sudden has a bunch of gpus to sell them.


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## sLowEnd (Sep 17, 2022)

pavle said:


> Interesting, but not so surprising; nvidia has been toxic to their customers way too many times throughout the years and no wonder - to their partners too.
> nvidia seems to be going the 3dfx way slowly, but surely. Perhaps we shall see the day they close down in shame, like 3dfx did. Rejoice for eVGA for having the character to end being intoxicated.



Not at all. 3DFX's situation was very different to Nvidia's current situation. Nvidia has diversified into a very successful (i.e. Almost $4 billion according to their latest investor report) data center market and a few other ones like auto, so it's very doubtful they will be in any financial trouble for the foreseeable future.


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## chrcoluk (Sep 17, 2022)

Might help EU supply given EVGA stock share was so imbalanced in USA favour.  Hopefully their allocation goes to partners with better worldwide spread now.


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## SOAREVERSOR (Sep 17, 2022)

What most don't get is computers are all going to be SOC or APU situations.  Dedicated cards are going to be cloud only items.  That is the future and it's not really going to be changed.  It's when, not if.


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## xmanrigger (Sep 18, 2022)

Anymal said:


> Their graphics cards were constantly lagging behind Msi and Asus solutions, sometimes even behind Gigabyte and Palit.


LOLOLOLOL! Thanks for the laugh. You made my day! Got anything more funny?


----------



## SpittinFax (Sep 18, 2022)

Nvidia stocks are going up regardless. Great investment opportunity.






Just kidding! Stock prices have been dropping for the last year. Peaked at US$330 in late 2021.


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## defaultluser (Sep 18, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> What most don't get is computers are all going to be SOC or APU situations.  Dedicated cards are going to be cloud only items.  That is the future and it's not really going to be changed.  It's when, not if.



Well obviously, we will se a return  to this trend soon:; but its not like its happening tomorrow





cutting off your nose to spite your face preemptively when there's still plenty of demand for the gargantuan 4090 seems kinda self-destructive?* they seem to have no problem continuing to ship top-end motherboards (and those must make bank, or they would have cancelled it years ago) so why not concentrate on top end video  cards with only hybrid water here?)

that's a lot of revenue to lose overnight*


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## 64K (Sep 18, 2022)

xmanrigger said:


> LOLOLOLOL! Thanks for the laugh. You made my day! Got anything more funny?



You've had your account here for almost 12 years and this is your first post. Hope to see you post more friend.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2022)

I'd just like it if we left the brand hate at the door, whatever the reason.


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## Fluffmeister (Sep 18, 2022)

Yeah enough with the brand hate, it's a two horse race ladies, stop pretending to care about EVGA when most of you wouldn't touch them with a barge pole because they were Nvidia only.

Your hatred of Nvidia doomed EVGA, well done.


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## The Von Matrices (Sep 18, 2022)

defaultluser said:


> cutting off your nose to spite your face preemptively when there's still plenty of demand for the gargantuan 4090 seems kinda self-destructive?* they seem to have no problem continuing to ship top-end motherboards (and those must make bank, or they would have cancelled it years ago) so why not concentrate on top end video  cards with only hybrid water here?)*


They can't just buy only top end GPUs from NVIDIA, they have to sell the entire range or else NVIDIA won't provide them with chips.  Also, binning GPUs to sell super premium Kingpin editions also means you end up with a lot of GPUs that can't run much faster than stock and have to be sold at bargain prices.


defaultluser said:


> *that's a lot of revenue to lose overnight*


Who cares about revenue if there's no profit to be made?


----------



## Colddecked (Sep 18, 2022)

Fluffmeister said:


> Yeah enough with the brand hate, it's a two horse race ladies, stop pretending to care about EVGA when most of you wouldn't touch them with a barge pole because they were Nvidia only.
> 
> Your hatred of Nvidia doomed EVGA, well done.



Ok sure, everyone hates Nvidia so much they have a massive lead in market share?  Lets just ignore Founders Edition cards that they sell cheaper than any other AIB.  It's honestly amazing they still have AIB partners.


----------



## samum (Sep 18, 2022)

The Von Matrices said:


> Who cares about revenue if there's no profit to be made?


Exactly.  The top line is nice, but it's the bottom line that matters.


----------



## Fluffmeister (Sep 18, 2022)

Colddecked said:


> Ok sure, everyone hates Nvidia so much they have a massive lead in market share?  Lets just ignore Founders Edition cards that they sell cheaper than any other AIB.  It's honestly amazing they still have AIB partners.



I guess, I mean if those AIB partners don't like it they are free to develop their own GPUs and sell them instead.


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## OneMoar (Sep 18, 2022)

lets not kid our selves

evga ran themselves into the ground nvidia has nothing NOTHING todo with this despite what Mr Han wants you to think
this is classic corpo misdirection blame nvidia for his failing and storm out of the room hoping to cause a scene

I suspect that this is a stalking horse play evga has a buyer in the wings and they don't want the gpu assets

I suspect evga to be sold or merged or otherwise non-existent within the next 3-6 months if not sooner


the writing has been on the wall for awhile EVGA has been in a downward spiral for years

half there staff left earlier this year, this has nothing todo with Nvidia being "mean" or a "bully" (and they absolutely are but not the point) 
you don't see any other AIB publicly crying about it

and seriously Making Company ending business decisions because you are offended? WTF??????

on what planet is that solid business sense ? its absurd Speaking of..

Furthermore pivoting to motherboards and psus?frankly absurd: they aren't a major player in any of those segments, when was the last time you saw a build featuring a evga motherboard or even psu?

thats a lousy lousy excuse I am am surprised anybody bought it

evga is a corporation and corporations are _SAY IT WITH ME_ *NOT YOUR FRIENDS  *


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## R0H1T (Sep 18, 2022)

EVGA isn't blameless but it'd be a gross oversight to neglect what Nvidia are doing for the last decade & will continue to do so in the next, if the users & their board partners don't neglect this potential inflection point!


OneMoar said:


> and seriously Making Company ending business decisions because you are offended?
> on what planet is that solid business sense ? its absurd


He probably didn't mean it literally otherwise he wouldn't be running a business for 20+ years. The commentary sounds more like what China does in their usual PR, maybe it's a cultural thing where "pride & feelings" are often exaggerated as major sticking points. This is a purely business decision as you could see with their falling margins.








						EVGA won’t offer Nvidia next-gen series
					

Citing price increases and shrinking margins, EVGA quits Nvidia.




					www.jonpeddie.com
				





mechtech said:


> Just blame covid


Or the Martians, or that guy who gets you banned from the forums or that other guy


----------



## Hxx (Sep 18, 2022)

Colddecked said:


> Ok sure, everyone hates Nvidia so much they have a massive lead in market share?  Lets just ignore Founders Edition cards that they sell cheaper than any other AIB.  It's honestly amazing they still have AIB partners.


my guess is Nvidia wants to do away with AIBs or severely limit their allocation and skus. Nvidia is a big enough company to handle its own retail channels to end users. My guess is EVGA is sort of seeing this end of AIBs and they are backing out early in the process. good for them.


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## OneMoar (Sep 18, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> EVGA isn't blameless but it'd be a gross oversight to neglect what Nvidia are doing for the last decade & will continue to do so in the next, if the users & their board partners don't neglect this potential inflection point!
> 
> He probably didn't mean it literally otherwise he wouldn't be running a business for 20+ years. The commentary sounds more like what China does in their usual PR, maybe it's a cultural thing where "pride & feelings" are often exaggerated as major sticking points. This is a purely business decision as you could see with their falling margins.
> 
> ...


20 years as a American company you would think he would know better
nope not buying it


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> when was the last time you saw a build featuring a evga motherboard or even psu?


The mobos are admitedly rare to see, but man, have you been living under a rock?  Their PSUs are pretty much everywhere.

They are rebrands, sure, but that's profitable.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 18, 2022)

Not everywhere but they're a lot more profitable/popular than their GPU's outside NA, Western Europe. EVGA is still a marginal brand in this part of the world, even if you only consider their mobos or PSU.


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## OneMoar (Sep 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> The mobos are admitedly rare to see, but man, have you been living under a rock?  Their PSUs are pretty much everywhere.
> 
> They are rebrands, sure, but that's profitable.


they aren't what I would consider a first tier supplier or even a second tier
at least from a market  presence pov
somebody says psu what brands that come to mind
and evgas motherboard department is dead in the water according to gn


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 18, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> somebody says psu what brands that come to mind


Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, Antec, Cooler Master, Seasonic, Corsair, ADATA, Deepcool, Silverstone in no particular order. Basically they're GPU's or bust, they may survive with just making reselling PSU's but I'm not sure how they ride it out with just the one product line which also has some serious competition. They will have to make more stuff & enter other markets, maybe even GPU's from AMD/Intel or else realistically they're poof a few years from now.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 18, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> they aren't what I would consider a first tier supplier or even a second tier
> at least from a market  presence pov
> somebody says psu what brands that come to mind
> and evgas motherboard department is dead in the water according to gn


Lmao 
You're either way out of touch or intentionally being facetious. There's only 4 or 5 top notch PSU companies and EVGA has been amongst that group for many years. 
Their mb division has never been a major player in the big picture but most everyone knows that without a tuber giving them the tip. 
If you feel jaded by EVGA for whatever reason, cool do you but stop with the nonsensical bs.


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 18, 2022)

He's partially right about EVGA, they're major brand catering to what a billion or so people in NA, Western Europe? When you're talking about ~5 billion in this part of the world they're not even in the top 5 & yes that includes just PSU's or PSU+GPU (motherboards?) market.

Over here Gigabyte, Cooler Master, Deepcool, Antec, Corsair are the top 5 IMO.


----------



## FinlandApollo (Sep 18, 2022)

R0H1T said:


> He's partially right about EVGA, they're major brand catering to what a billion or so people in NA, Western Europe? When you're talking about ~5 billion in this part of the world they're not even in the top 5 & yes that includes just PSU's or PSU+GPU (motherboards?) market.
> 
> Over here Gigabyte, Cooler Master, Deepcool, Antec, Corsair are the top 5 IMO.


By what standards Gigabyte is the top 5? Quality, nope. Same goes with current quality of Antec and majority of Deepcool's alternative.

Quality wise, EVGA is up there with Corsair's high end and Seasonic


----------



## OneMoar (Sep 18, 2022)

FinlandApollo said:


> By what standards Gigabyte is the top 5? Quality, nope. Same goes with current quality of Antec and majority of Deepcool's alternative.
> 
> Quality wise, EVGA is up there with Corsair's high end and Seasonic


thats the point they don't make there own psus they rebrand somebody elses ? why would I now buy a evga psu when I can't trust that the company will even exist in a year ? 
not only that at first they where re-branded superflower, now they are FSP junk
explain why I would want that ?


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 18, 2022)

FinlandApollo said:


> By what standards Gigabyte is the top 5? Quality, nope. Same goes with current quality of Antec and majority of Deepcool's alternative.
> 
> Quality wise, EVGA is up there with Corsair's high end and Seasonic


By selling more in Asia than EVGA? That's why I said *here*, it's either Asus or Gigabyte & they're both much bigger in terms of market presence plus sales.


----------



## OneMoar (Sep 18, 2022)

asias market is even harder then north america or the eu


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 18, 2022)

And bigger, plus the only one with substantial growth potential. EVGA is basically addressing only ~40% of the market, if they'd compete more here they'd probably have their PSU margins cut in half.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 18, 2022)

Gigabyte...the sorriest of the sorry. That says everything we need to know about this conversation.

Back on topic before the banhammer comes down is my advice. Later.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 18, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> Might help EU supply given EVGA stock share was so imbalanced in USA favour.  Hopefully their allocation goes to partners with better worldwide spread now.



good point, let's hope


----------



## taka (Sep 18, 2022)

Some companies have products in all tiers, low to hi. Evga didn't have this as far as i know. Now it depends what tier you choose when forming an oppinion.
Some companies like Gigabyte decided to slow down top tiers and sell only low. Aorus was quite good a few years ago.
But from a bussines point of view, if you sell more low tiers, why bother with hi end?
Just for prestige? Look at EVGA now.

Later edited, EVGA had tiering, but all tiers were overpriced compared to rest.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 18, 2022)

taka said:


> Some companies have products in all tiers, low to hi. Evga didn't have this as far as i know. Now it depends what tier you choose when forming an oppinion.
> Some companies like Gigabyte decided to slow down top tiers and sell only low. Aorus was quite good a few years ago.
> But from a bussines point of view, if you sell more low tiers, why bother with hi end?
> Just for prestige? Look at EVGA now.
> ...



EVGA sold low end cards and low end PSU's.


----------



## taka (Sep 18, 2022)

I always sort one product after price, EVGA are on last page. A 3060 from them is same or more money as a 3070 from others.
Never had one and look's i never will.


----------



## Sora (Sep 18, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> Here is a guess.  The has to do with GPU prices since they are crashing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Correct.

also Andrew is a psycho


----------



## Vario (Sep 18, 2022)

I am also wondering if there might be something else on EVGA's books that we don't know about.

If they are to continue, I think they should go all in on customized DDR5 (much like Gskill, Corsair, Team) and motherboards.


----------



## P4-630 (Sep 18, 2022)

Vario said:


> If they are to continue



They do, they will focus on motherboards and PSU's.
They do not plan to expand into new product categories for the time being they said.


----------



## tfdsaf (Sep 18, 2022)

They are likely to expand into peripherals like mouse, keyboard, headphones, cooling, gaming chairs, maybe even into ram memory and SSD's, otherwise I'm afraid they'll just slowly die off in obscurity! They are literally 1% of mobo market and even less in psu market. 

Though ram and ssd's can be difficult as well with unpredictable pricing and big highs and big lows.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 18, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> They do, they will focus on motherboards and PSU's.
> They do not plan to expand into new product categories for the time being they said.


Now maybe they'll invest more time in making a better motherboard.


----------



## 1234chgm (Sep 18, 2022)

This news was just totally unexpected and came right out of the blue for me.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 18, 2022)

Vario said:


> I am also wondering if there might be something else on EVGA's books that we don't know about.
> 
> If they are to continue, I think they should go all in on customized DDR5 (much like Gskill, Corsair, Team) and motherboards.



My worry is that they are going to die a slow death.


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 18, 2022)

> EVGA Announces Cancelation of NVIDIA Next-gen Graphics Cards Plans, Officially Terminates NVIDIA Partnership​



Sad news indeed.

I don't know much about EVGA other than buying into my last retail purchased card being a EVGA GTX 1080 TI SC BLACK EDITION and G2 PSUs (which were/are fantastic).

What i'm going to miss the most is that GPU industrial looking chunky grill aesthetic without plastic shrouds overindulging their presence like we see on most cards. My next upgrade was going to be something like a 4080 with an EVGA exposed chunky heatsink, something which looks like this:






Oh well... i guess we'll have to look at other options now.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 18, 2022)

The day of the news I was going to buy a 3080Ti from them, but big shocker that their flagship cards are out of stock.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 18, 2022)

freeagent said:


> The day of the news I was going to buy a 3080Ti from them, but big shocker that their flagship cards are out of stock.



Likely holding them back for warranty purposes what any decent company would do. Most companies would just sell them all off.


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 18, 2022)

P4-630 said:


> 8 shops still sell them today in my country in EU.
> View attachment 262103



Talking about their direct site... once sold to retailers they can't get them back. Man those prices are terrible though.


----------



## P4-630 (Sep 18, 2022)

oxrufiioxo said:


> Talking about their direct site... once sold to retailers they can't get them back.


Right, was just thinking about that after my post...
Nevermind..


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 18, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> Sad news indeed.
> 
> I don't know much about EVGA other than buying into my last retail purchased card being a EVGA GTX 1080 TI SC BLACK EDITION and G2 PSUs (which were/are fantastic).
> 
> ...




Me as well.... I really like my 3080ti ftw aesthetics and overall noise/temps much better than my 2080 ti stix card.


----------



## 64K (Sep 18, 2022)

freeagent said:


> The day of the news I was going to buy a 3080Ti from them, but big shocker that their flagship cards are out of stock.



If you don't mind using Amazon in Canada you can still get one.



			Amazon.ca : rtx 3080 ti


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 18, 2022)

64K said:


> If you don't mind using Amazon in Canada you can still get one.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.ca : rtx 3080 ti



FTW3 is showing out of stock for me.


----------



## mechtech (Sep 18, 2022)

Wonder if this is in the top 10 of most posted threads?

For their motherboards did they make them or partner up with someone?


----------



## oxrufiioxo (Sep 18, 2022)

mechtech said:


> Wonder if this is in the top 10 of most posted threads?
> 
> For their motherboards did they make them or partner up with someone?



They make them although until recently only the Dark done by Kingpin was any good.


----------



## AleXXX666 (Sep 18, 2022)

Kohl Baas said:


> Sales alone worth nothing if you can't hit the margine...


ooh, with THEIR prices in EU, i believe there is a BIG headroom for MARGINE lmfao


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 18, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> What most don't get is computers are all going to be SOC or APU situations.


There's going to be some of that, there already is, but that's a far cry from "all", which is a VERY narrow minded and nonsensicle train of thought. It'll be a cold day on the surface of the Sun before the traditional desktop PC comes to an end. So hush up about it.


----------



## OneMoar (Sep 18, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> ooh, with THEIR prices in EU, i believe there is a BIG headroom for MARGINE lmfao


do you not understand how taxes work ?


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 18, 2022)

Speculation:  CEO wants to retire; doesn't have a successor, doesn't want to go public, but wants to get some money out of the company.  Solution:  trim the business back to the higher-margin, easier-to-manage product lines.  Keep the venture rolling until you can arrange a sale of the brand to a holding company (i.e. pull an Antec).

Signs had been accumulating that all pointed to something, just didn't know that it would be this.


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 18, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> somebody says psu what brands that come to mind


I'd say for me the first three are Corsair, EVGA, and Seasonic.  Not in that order neccesarily.



DeathtoGnomes said:


> Now maybe they'll invest more time in making a better motherboard.


Their motherboards are excellent actually.  I'm using one now on my main rig.  The starting msrps are geared towards their "will buy anything" fanbase, but if you wait, you can get them at much more realistic prices (I got this board in specs for $225 shipped, it's msrp is like $500 something lol).

The bios updates are even timely on Ryzen.  Yeah, not buying the idea they are giving up there.



80-watt Hamster said:


> Speculation:  CEO wants to retire; doesn't have a successor, doesn't want to go public, but wants to get some money out of the company.  Solution:  trim the business back to the higher-margin, easier-to-manage product lines.  Keep the venture rolling until you can arrange a sale of the brand to a holding company (i.e. pull an Antec).
> 
> Signs had been accumulating that all pointed to something, just didn't know that it would be this.


I find this believable.


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 18, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Speculation:  CEO wants to retire; doesn't have a successor, doesn't want to go public, but wants to get some money out of the company.  Solution:  trim the business back to the higher-margin, easier-to-manage product lines.  Keep the venture rolling until you can arrange a sale of the brand to a holding company (i.e. pull an Antec).
> 
> Signs had been accumulating that all pointed to something, just didn't know that it would be this.



Wouldn't it be just as simple and more profitable for a CEO to just sell the company as is, with large percentage in graphics card sakes?


----------



## Vario (Sep 18, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Wouldn't it be just as simple and more profitable for a CEO to just sell the company as is, with large percentage in graphics card sakes?


If it is a future sale, it may have to do with sale valuation relating to accounting for future revenue for 4th gen cards due to the uncertain NVIDIA MSRP.


----------



## cvaldes (Sep 18, 2022)

Fluffmeister said:


> Yeah enough with the brand hate, it's a two horse race ladies, stop pretending to care about EVGA when most of you wouldn't touch them with a barge pole because they were Nvidia only.
> 
> Your hatred of Nvidia doomed EVGA, well done.



Not true. Nvidia GeForce commands about 80% of the discrete desktop graphics card market compared to AMD Radeon's 20%.

EVGA was selling lots of cards (nearly 80% of company revenue). The problem was declining gross margin over a long period of time (over a decade) for AIB partners. There was no trend of GeForce losing large amounts of market share to Radeon.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 18, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Wouldn't it be just as simple and more profitable for a CEO to just sell the company as is, with large percentage in graphics card sakes?



Not necessarily.  A buyer would purchase based on future prospects.  In this case, the value is in the EVGA brand and potentially the distribution network and/or existing partnerships.  Evidence suggests that the GPU arm struggles with ROI, a problem a new owner would have at least as much trouble solving as EVGA itself does right now.  An entity not interested in the GPU side would need to deal with divesting it if they bought the whole shebang while that division still existed.

TL;DR, you want to buy assets, not liabilities.  If EVGA management has deemed their GPU business a liability, it's highly likely a buyer would also consider it such.


----------



## 64K (Sep 18, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Wouldn't it be just as simple and more profitable for a CEO to just sell the company as is, with large percentage in graphics card sakes?



Who knows what was in the contract that EVGA signed to become Nvidia's #1 Board Partner though.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 18, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Speculation:  CEO wants to retire; doesn't have a successor, doesn't want to go public, but wants to get some money out of the company.  Solution:  trim the business back to the higher-margin, easier-to-manage product lines.  Keep the venture rolling until you can arrange a sale of the brand to a holding company (i.e. pull an Antec).
> 
> Signs had been accumulating that all pointed to something, just didn't know that it would be this.


GN asked him as much, and he said "No." So while it's a reasonable guess, it's not the case - but he did confirm the decision was partly driven by a desire to not be constantly caught up in Nvidia business drama and instead getting the opportunity to spend more time with his family. So, not retiring, but also not wanting to spend 100% of his time trying to run a company at the whim of their largest supplier.


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 18, 2022)

Sorry, but I'd have to hear complaints from other AIB partners before I buy the "margins are to slim for one of the largest GPU makers to still remain in bussiness".


----------



## Valantar (Sep 18, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Sorry, but I'd have to hear complaints from other AIB partners before I buy the "margins are to slim for one of the largest GPU makers to still remain in bussiness".


This is really nothing new, it's been quite widely reported for years. AIB partners are being seriously squeezed as chipmakers demand ever higher margins.


----------



## 64K (Sep 18, 2022)

I would like to hear more from those EVGA employees in a few weeks that the OP was referring to.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Their motherboards are excellent actually. I'm using one now on my main rig. The starting msrps are geared towards their "will buy anything" fanbase, but if you wait, you can get them at much more realistic prices (I got this board in specs for $225 shipped, it's msrp is like $500 something lol).
> 
> The bios updates are even timely on Ryzen. Yeah, not buying the idea they are giving up there.


Quality is relative to the viewer.  However, that doesnt mean they cant take your board and make even better (mo'betta), thats more of what I was trying to suggest.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 18, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> I'd say for me the first three are Corsair, EVGA, and Seasonic.  Not in that order neccesarily.
> 
> 
> Their motherboards are excellent actually.  I'm using one now on my main rig.  The starting msrps are geared towards their "will buy anything" fanbase, but if you wait, you can get them at much more realistic prices (I got this board in specs for $225 shipped, it's msrp is like $500 something lol).
> ...


Exactly, anyone that has even a modicum of psu knowledge would agree with those three being among the top 5 no question. No matter what part of the world you reside in, quality is quality.

I've also had excellent luck with EVGA mbs. Two of the best rigs I've ever had were EVGA mb based. They simply don't focus nearly as much of their company assets towards development compared to the big four. If they do in fact make the changes that were announced. I have no doubts they will once again regain their past motherboard successes.


----------



## EVGA_JacobF (Sep 18, 2022)

erek said:


> I’m just hoping that pompous & somewhat arrogant EVGA Jacob Freemen social media influencer will finally relinquish / put up for sale his nVidia GeForce FX 5800 Ultra. That i need, tbh



I have been called many things over the years but a social media influencer is definitely a new one!


----------



## 64K (Sep 18, 2022)

My EVGA Supernova Gold was given an outstanding review on  jonnyguru and concluded with a rating of 9.9 out of 10

It doesn't get better than that.


----------



## mama (Sep 18, 2022)

64K said:


> My EVGA Supernova Gold was given an outstanding review on  jonnyguru and concluded with a rating of 9.9 out of 10
> 
> It doesn't get better than that.


Well it can get better... Admittedly not by much.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 18, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Speculation:  CEO wants to retire; doesn't have a successor, doesn't want to go public, but wants to get some money out of the company.  Solution:  trim the business back to the higher-margin, easier-to-manage product lines.  Keep the venture rolling until you can arrange a sale of the brand to a holding company (i.e. pull an Antec).
> 
> Signs had been accumulating that all pointed to something, just didn't know that it would be this.


That's an interesting theory. Wonder if there's any truth to it...


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 18, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> That's an interesting theory. Wonder if there's any truth to it...



@Valantar rightly pointed out that EVGA explicitly denied it. I'd love to be wrong, and even more pleased if they get back into the game later.


----------



## 64K (Sep 18, 2022)

mama said:


> Well it can get better... Admittedly not by much.



Going from a 9.9/10 to a 10/10 would be something trivial like maybe if it had been Platinum rated instead of Gold rated then it possibly would have been rated a 10 out 10 and I could have saved 11 cents a month on my power bill.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> @Valantar rightly pointed out that EVGA explicitly denied it. I'd love to be wrong, and even more pleased if they get back into the game later.


Who's knows though. Anything is possible at this point..


----------



## mama (Sep 19, 2022)

I think it's clear that EVGA are acting under a no competition clause with Nvidia.  Hence their strenuous denials of not going to AMD or Intel.  I expect they'll have to do this for at least a year (which is a reasonable time) before jumping back into the game with someone else.  It might also explain why they say they want to keep their employees on.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2022)

mama said:


> I think it's clear that EVGA are acting under a no competition clause with Nvidia.


No. If they ditched NVidia, any contractual "no competition" clauses go right out the window.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 19, 2022)

64K said:


> Going from a 9.9/10 to a 10/10 would be something trivial like maybe if it had been Platinum rated instead of Gold rated then it possibly would have been rated a 10 out 10 and I could have saved 11 cents a month on my power bill.


To be fair, I don't think JG ever gave a psu a 10 of 10, that I recall...that ain't sayin much but anyhow. Hahaha


----------



## R0H1T (Sep 19, 2022)

I think he did, probably Corsair Ax1600i or something titanium rated?

I remember the first Corsair AXxxx batch to be the highest rated & most efficient PSU I saw at the time across multiple sites, so that might be the one.


----------



## kapone32 (Sep 19, 2022)

During the pandemic you could buy a card directly from Nvidia. If Nvidia was selling their cards cheaper than EVGA that would suck if they asked them to adjust and were told to pound sand. What is the warranty term for retailers that sell GPUs? A really serious customer could buy and return a card as the prices fall every week. It is not outside the realm of possibility that a combination of those 2 factors and more could be the reason that EVGA has left what they have been known for. The one for me though is GPU prices are about to have a huge correction and prices have not (or cannot ) come down as much as they should so it may just be a fire sale will ruin Nvidia's you have to PAY to play philosiphy.


----------



## Ravenas (Sep 19, 2022)

I find it interesting that the door has been left open to returning to Nvidia GPU manufacturing, just not this generation.

It's also interesting that while they have said they have no plans to partner with AMD or Intel, they have explicitly said they won't be.

I find it hard to believe they aren't going to replace 50% to 75% of their revenue stream (GPU manufacturing) with Nvidia again in future generations, or with AMD or Intel.

On a side note, I do like EVGA, I use the Z20/X20 and I have a couple of their PSUs. With that being said, I hope they don't disappear from the market.

I can see why EVGA is mad:


Founders edition cards cheaper than their own. Partners unable to compete with Nvidia.
Nvidia has first hand knowledge of drivers.
Nvidia has first hand knowledge of chipset.

Nvidia not providing information to partners prior to launch regarding pricing of chipset.
Nvidia not providing drivers to partners prior to launch.
Nvidia charging EVGA marketing fee kickbacks to pay retailers, while putting their own product on the shelf and not being subjected to the same pricing.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 19, 2022)

Those Founders cards look pretty wimpy. They look like a boutique product that won't last the test of time, though they are probably fine, I am sure. Except the disassembly. Then you look at something from EVGA and you think damn that is a serious piece of tech. Then you feel the weight, its rigidity, and you think dam that is nice. Mmm. Someone posted that 3080Ti shot, that is a purty card, I would touch it inappropriately.

Edit:

Got a little carried away


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 19, 2022)

freeagent said:


> I would touch it inappropriately.


Easy, Tiger...


----------



## R-T-B (Sep 19, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Those Founders cards look pretty wimpy. They look like a boutique product that won't last the test of time, though they are probably fine, I am sure. Except the disassembly. Then you look at something from EVGA and you think damn that is a serious piece of tech. Then you feel the weight, its rigidity, and you think dam that is nice. Mmm. Someone posted that 3080Ti shot, that is a purty card, I would touch it inappropriately.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Got a little carried away


It's ok, no judgement zone here.



lexluthermiester said:


> Easy, Tiger...


Haters gonna hate.


----------



## AsRock (Sep 19, 2022)

Fluffmeister said:


> Yeah enough with the brand hate, it's a two horse race ladies, stop pretending to care about EVGA when most of you wouldn't touch them with a barge pole because they were Nvidia only.
> 
> Your hatred of Nvidia doomed EVGA, well done.



nVidia don't need people to doom them, there going a good job on their own.  Stop putting words on peoples mouths, just because people have a reason to like one brand\range over some other for many reasons.

And i would of got more eVGA cards over the years but apparently they were not allowed to sell them because of nVidia. Ooh XFX comes to mind.


----------



## ixi (Sep 19, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> View attachment 262092
> 
> Oh well... i guess we'll have to look at other options now.




Scrub off of your current gpu numbers on side - 3080 and with something sharp make 4080.



AsRock said:


> And i would of got more eVGA cards over the years but apparently they were not allowed to sell them because of nVidia. Ooh XFX comes to mind.



AsRock doesn't support own gpu's, there is something we don't know?


----------



## cvaldes (Sep 19, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> During the pandemic you could buy a card directly from Nvidia.



It depends on the market. Here in the USA, Nvidia's Founder Edition card retail sales for the GeForce 30 series (Ampere generation) were exclusively handled by Best Buy. You could not buy them directly from Nvidia nor any other retailer.

At least in the USA, Nvidia did not offer any direct-to-consumer sales, Founders Edition or AIB partner models.


----------



## Dirt Chip (Sep 19, 2022)

Such a thread, can't remember one like this since the 970GTX 3.5gb memory fiasco...


----------



## Jimmy_ (Sep 19, 2022)

its a GGWP for EVGA  - i was expecting some custom liquid-cooled 40-series card like 3090


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 19, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> It depends on the market. Here in the USA, Nvidia's Founder Edition card retail sales for the GeForce 30 series (Ampere generation) were exclusively handled by Best Buy. You could not buy them directly from Nvidia nor any other retailer.
> 
> At least in the USA, Nvidia did not offer any direct-to-consumer sales, Founders Edition or AIB partner models.



In EU Founder's Editions were not even available most of the time. When Nvidia stopped direct sales quite early and chose Best Buy in USA to handle their card sales, there were talks about some big EU retailer that would bring these cards to buyers. Nothing happened. 

Notebooksbilliger in Germany was occasionally selling some Founder's Edition cards, but that was a handful every couple of weeks, it almost looked like they were grey imports from elsewhere. 

It looked to me like AIB pressured Nvidia to remove Founder's Edition cards from certain markets, and limit their availability in others. I had absolutely no problem with Founders, I think they were the only cards with an interesting design, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat if I could get one.


----------



## medi01 (Sep 19, 2022)

CallandorWoT said:


> It's really insane news, that's why. EVGA has a loyal and large fanbase, their sells were pretty much guaranteed with each generation of launch.
> 
> In a free will capitalist market, it makes no sense. Very odd.


Where can EVGA get alternative chips, if NV keeps cutting into their margins? Right, in its current "exclusively green" state, nowhere.

Oversized companies that dominate the market is where capitalism stops doing well.


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 19, 2022)

What seems strange to me is also the timing of this announcement.

A few days before RTX 4090 release, a month before RTX 4080. All these cards should have already be in existence, with design done months ago, and manufacturing also done weeks ago.

I've heard that essential employees were leaving the company for quite some time, so the decision was probably already made before the beginning of development of Ada cards, so they didn't waste the design, development and manufacturing on a product they won't launch.

So why wait until Ada launch? So they didn't hurt the sales of existing Ampere stock? So it would have a maximum impact in a time every PC enthusiast watches the news regarding GPUs?


----------



## medi01 (Sep 19, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> 80% of their REVENUE made one third of their profit.
> 
> Do the math; That's pretty damning against Nvidia.


This needs to be repeated on every page.

PS
I wonder, if AMD would be able to use the situation, fingers crossed.


----------



## Chomiq (Sep 19, 2022)

The past two years basically erased their existence in markets outside of US, no wonder they were pissed about it.


----------



## medi01 (Sep 19, 2022)

Berfs1 said:


> Possibly because they don't want to go back and forth between the two once AMD does a fuck up (if it happens).


NV is quite unique in such FUs.
E.g. Microsoft didn't even bother TALKING to them for their previous console (nor current).
Apple went "FO with that sh*t" and that was back when AMD going bust was quite a possibility.

Seems to be something about Huang's personality at play. And it is hurting NV in major ways.


----------



## Bwaze (Sep 19, 2022)

medi01 said:


> Seems to be something about Huang's personality at play. And it is hurting NV in major ways.


Or entirely intentional as they slowly transform into a closed kind of manufacturer without Add In Board partners - do they even need them at this point?

I know Founder's Edition cards aren't to everyone's liking, but if Nvidia were the only "manufacturer", I'm sure they could make a wider array of offerings - from cheap coolers to top of the line water cooled behemoths?


----------



## OneMoar (Sep 19, 2022)

medi01 said:


> This needs to be repeated on every page.
> 
> PS
> I wonder, if AMD would be able to use the situation, fingers crossed.


no it doesn't evga are not the good guys they fucked up and now they are going to pay for it
hans being a typical prideful asian ceo just like jenson and hes about to pay for it
there will not be a evga in 3-6 months quiet possibly less
can we please stop treating this as some kind of hero maneuver by evga what this is is two old men having a pissing contest at everybody else's expense


----------



## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> Or entirely intentional as they slowly transform into a closed kind of manufacturer without Add In Board partners - do they even need them at this point?
> 
> I know Founder's Edition cards aren't to everyone's liking, but if Nvidia were the only "manufacturer", I'm sure they could make a wider array of offerings - from cheap coolers to top of the line water cooled behemoths?


They really do. Nvidia doesn't have the distribution and service provider network necessary to do global direct sales, nor do they have the local staff and sales reps necessary. And building up something like this is a massive and very costly undertaking.

Of course, there's also the fact that Nvidia very much enjoys shifting low margin endeavors like low end card design and production onto partners. For them it's the best of both worlds after all - they sell the chips at high margins for AIB partner cards, and sell their own premium SKUs at high margins, while AIB partners fill out the gaps.


OneMoar said:


> no it doesn't evga are not the good guys they fucked up and now they are going to pay for it


Fucked up how?


OneMoar said:


> hans being a typical prideful asian ceo just like jenson and hes about to pay for it


How so?


OneMoar said:


> there will not be a evga in 3-6 months quiet possibly less


Seems rather unlikely. They'll see a major revenue dip, sure, but their PSU business is very solid. Downsizing is not the same as going under.


OneMoar said:


> can we please stop treating this as some kind of hero maneuver by evga what this is is two old men having a pissing contest at everybody else's expense


Why shouldn't we be happy that someone is putting pressure on a massive company with massive market power to change their practices? If pride is what it takes to stand up to a bully, then that's what it takes.

It's not like this hurts consumers after all - they'll still be honoring warranties, and their chip allotments will go to other AIB partners instead. Combine that with a supply glut and very low demand for GPUs currently and I really don't see this as harmful to consumers in any way.


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## ixi (Sep 19, 2022)

Would be good to see EVGA on Red and Blue team .


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## maxfly (Sep 19, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> no it doesn't evga are not the good guys they fucked up and now they are going to pay for it
> hans being a typical prideful asian ceo just like jenson and hes about to pay for it
> there will not be a evga in 3-6 months quiet possibly less
> can we please stop treating this as some kind of hero maneuver by evga what this is is two old men having a pissing contest at everybody else's expense


It finally comes out. After all the nonsense you've posted about EVGA this weekend the truth finally comes out. Your jealous of the old man. How sad. 
All that horseshit about gigabyte PSUs in your region being top tier (may the good lord help your fellow countrymen). Your credibility went right out the window with that nonsense btw. To now predicting EVGAs imminent demise...yuh huh. And it had nothing to do with the company, you hate the owner.


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## R-T-B (Sep 19, 2022)

Bwaze said:


> so the decision was probably already made before the beginning of development of Ada cards, so they didn't waste the design, development and manufacturing on a product they won't launch.


Prototype cards exist though.



maxfly said:


> To be fair, I don't think JG ever gave a psu a 10 of 10, that I recall...that ain't sayin much but anyhow. Hahaha


Seasonic Prime got a perfect 10.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

R-T-B said:


> Prototype cards exist though.


Yep, they definitely did a lot of R&D for 4000-series. If this decision had been made that early, we would have heard of it before now, as they could have made it a lot more of a gradual thing. Board design and R&D for a new GPU generation starts, what, at least a year before launch? If I were to guess, I'd say the run-up to the upcoming launch, coupled with Nvidia's current push to restrict retail stock for 3000-series, was probably the straw bale of hay that broke the proverbial camel's back, with EVGA already frustrated with their "partnership" for years, but this finally tipping things over into "no longer worth it" territory.


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## Xex360 (Sep 19, 2022)

They should've stopped being nVidia exclusive a long time ago, ATI and AMD had lots of great GPUs yet they stuck with nVidia. They put themselves in this situation. Worst still they don't want to use their experience to make AMD GPUs.
They won't be missed.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

Xex360 said:


> They should've stopped being nVidia exclusive a long time ago, ATI and AMD had lots of great GPUs yet they stuck with nVidia. They put themselves in this situation. Worst still they don't want to use their experience to make AMD GPUs.
> They won't be missed.


It's not quite that simple - they likely get significantly better deals, pricing and marketing partnerships through being an exclusive partner. It's the same on the AMD side - the AMD GPUs you see getting promoted are typically Sapphire and Powercolor, both of which are exclusive partners, despite them both being much smaller than someone like Asus or Gigabyte. Why? Because AMD gives more marketing support to exclusive partners, and obviously wants to promote them more. So, for EVGA, despite being a major seller of Nvidia GPUs, they're still small fry overall, and if margins were as bad as claimed _with_ an exclusivity deal, you can only imagine what they would be like without that. And the same goes for how unreasonable negotiations with Nvidia seemingly were _even with_ them being their longest-standing exclusive partner.

As for not wanting to go AMD or Intel - to me it's sensible to not jump to a new option right off the bat. Of course they're in a relatively luxurious position when they seem able to afford a period to figure this out, but then they do have a very solid PSU business that no doubt supports the company well. They might judge this part of the industry to not be worth taking part in any longer, which seems like a pretty valid perspective. When major partners like Asus have been reporting low single digit margins for several generations already, this really isn't a viable business model long term, and with chipmakers working to push their margins higher, this just squeezes AIB partners even more. Something needs to change here, unless we want to see massive consolidation across the GPU industry.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> It's not quite that simple - they likely get significantly better deals, pricing and marketing partnerships through being an exclusive partner. It's the same on the AMD side - the AMD GPUs you see getting promoted are typically Sapphire and Powercolor, both of which are exclusive partners, despite them both being much smaller than someone like Asus or Gigabyte. Why? Because AMD gives more marketing support to exclusive partners, and obviously wants to promote them more. So, for EVGA, despite being a major seller of Nvidia GPUs, they're still small fry overall, and if margins were as bad as claimed _with_ an exclusivity deal, you can only imagine what they would be like without that. And the same goes for how unreasonable negotiations with Nvidia seemingly were _even with_ them being their longest-standing exclusive partner.



pricing maybe but it would make their CEO's claims a bit harder to digest. Marketing i never seen that, they always use their own card.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> pricing maybe but it would make their CEO's claims a bit harder to digest. Marketing i never seen that, they always use their own card.


What? Did you somehow read what I said as AIB partners marketing using reference cards or cards from other brands? Okay, so, here's the thing: "marketing support"= the chipmaker gives partners lump sums of money to market their products in specific ways in specific markets and with specific branding (that's why nearly every laptop ad you'll ever see will have significant Intel branding - it's Intel paying for it, regardless of the laptop brand. Similarly, every GPU ad you'll ever see will have prominent official Nvidia/AMD branding). The AIB partners/device makers _obviously_ market their own products - what else would they market, the general concept of GPUs?

Marketing is _extremely_ expensive, and most AIB partners and even major tech brands like Asus, HP, Dell etc. don't necessarily have the means to market their products at scale in all the markets they operate in. That's where marketing support funds from chipmakers come into play. And these days, it's an absolute necessity for operating in this business, as margins for AIB partners are just too slim to pay for their own marketing. And it's obvious that any chipmaker will give more support to an exclusive partner than one that they share. And, of course, the whole GPP debacle was centered around Nvidia heavy-handedly trying to enforce their will onto AIB partners through how they gave out marketing funds.


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## SOAREVERSOR (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> It's not quite that simple - they likely get significantly better deals, pricing and marketing partnerships through being an exclusive partner. It's the same on the AMD side - the AMD GPUs you see getting promoted are typically Sapphire and Powercolor, both of which are exclusive partners, despite them both being much smaller than someone like Asus or Gigabyte. Why? Because AMD gives more marketing support to exclusive partners, and obviously wants to promote them more. So, for EVGA, despite being a major seller of Nvidia GPUs, they're still small fry overall, and if margins were as bad as claimed _with_ an exclusivity deal, you can only imagine what they would be like without that. And the same goes for how unreasonable negotiations with Nvidia seemingly were _even with_ them being their longest-standing exclusive partner.
> 
> As for not wanting to go AMD or Intel - to me it's sensible to not jump to a new option right off the bat. Of course they're in a relatively luxurious position when they seem able to afford a period to figure this out, but then they do have a very solid PSU business that no doubt supports the company well. They might judge this part of the industry to not be worth taking part in any longer, which seems like a pretty valid perspective. When major partners like Asus have been reporting low single digit margins for several generations already, this really isn't a viable business model long term, and with chipmakers working to push their margins higher, this just squeezes AIB partners even more. Something needs to change here, unless we want to see massive consolidation across the GPU industry.



They days of GPUs as add in cards are numbered anyways.   It's a pretty open secret that the future of gaming is all cloud based.  PC will be the first to go and we'll all be using SOCs or APUs and actual graphics "cards" are all going to be on cloud servers to do the work for you.   Consoles will be the next thing to go with portable units being the last.   The concept of getting a graphics card for your computer unless you are talking some multi thousand dollar workstation type deal will be as antiquated as a horse and buggy within a decade.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> What? Did you somehow read what I said as AIB partners marketing using reference cards or cards from other brands? Okay, so, here's the thing: "marketing support"= the chipmaker gives partners lump sums of money to market their products in specific ways in specific markets and with specific branding (that's why nearly every laptop ad you'll ever see will have significant Intel branding - it's Intel paying for it, regardless of the laptop brand. Similarly, every GPU ad you'll ever see will have prominent official Nvidia/AMD branding). The AIB partners/device makers _obviously_ market their own products - what else would they market, the general concept of GPUs?
> 
> Marketing is _extremely_ expensive, and most AIB partners and even major tech brands like Asus, HP, Dell etc. don't necessarily have the means to market their products at scale in all the markets they operate in. That's where marketing support funds from chipmakers come into play. And these days, it's an absolute necessity for operating in this business, as margins for AIB partners are just too slim to pay for their own marketing. And it's obvious that any chipmaker will give more support to an exclusive partner than one that they share. And, of course, the whole GPP debacle was centered around Nvidia heavy-handedly trying to enforce their will onto AIB partners through how they gave out marketing funds.



you lost me. i'm just saying in all amd material they always use a reference card. i doubt they pay for aib's marketing


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## neatfeatguy (Sep 19, 2022)

Perhaps EVGA hasn't picked AMD or Intel to go with because maybe they're waiting to see what kind of deal AMD and/or Intel will approach them with. EVGA is a big name for GPUs, perhaps they're hoping Nvidia's competition will come to them.


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## OneMoar (Sep 19, 2022)

neatfeatguy said:


> Perhaps EVGA hasn't picked AMD or Intel to go with because maybe they're waiting to see what kind of deal AMD and/or Intel will approach them with. EVGA is a big name for GPUs, perhaps they're hoping Nvidia's competition will come to them.


non-compete clause
also going out of business soon(tm)


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## AnotherReader (Sep 19, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> They days of GPUs as add in cards are numbered anyways.   It's a pretty open secret that the future of gaming is all cloud based.  PC will be the first to go and we'll all be using SOCs or APUs and actual graphics "cards" are all going to be on cloud servers to do the work for you.   Consoles will be the next thing to go with portable units being the last.   The concept of getting a graphics card for your computer unless you are talking some multi thousand dollar workstation type deal will be as antiquated as a horse and buggy within a decade.


The pandemic should have been the perfect storm for game streaming. Instead, many people overpaid for discrete GPUs of their own. Google's Stadia has been lackluster so far, and it's telling that not a single game streaming provider has shared revenues or even recurrent subscriber numbers for the service. Consoles are likely to be the big winner if all we are left with is APUs.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> you lost me. i'm just saying in all amd material they always use a reference card. i doubt they pay for aib's marketing


... and you're still not understanding what I'm saying. All official Nvidia material also uses their Founders designs. That's not what I'm talking about at all - I'm talking about brands marketing their own products - say, EVGA promoting EVGA GPUs - and how this marketing is largely (but not _entirely_) paid for by GPU makers through marketing support programs. I'm not talking about chipmakers' first-party ads, I'm talking about ads from Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, EVGA, Powercolor, Sapphire, etc. _All_ of these are significantly funded by chipmakers.



SOAREVERSOR said:


> They days of GPUs as add in cards are numbered anyways.   It's a pretty open secret that the future of gaming is all cloud based.  PC will be the first to go and we'll all be using SOCs or APUs and actual graphics "cards" are all going to be on cloud servers to do the work for you.   Consoles will be the next thing to go with portable units being the last.   The concept of getting a graphics card for your computer unless you are talking some multi thousand dollar workstation type deal will be as antiquated as a horse and buggy within a decade.


Sure. That's been promised for, what, a decade now? It has arguably gotten better in that time period, but it's still nowhere near a replacement for local hardware. The vast majority of the world is nowhere near having the internet connectivity necessary for this, and even for those who do, the disadvantages of cloud gaming typically far outweigh the advantages.


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## Bomby569 (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... and you're still not understanding what I'm saying. All official Nvidia material also uses their Founders designs. That's not what I'm talking about at all - I'm talking about brands marketing their own products - say, EVGA promoting EVGA GPUs - and how this marketing is largely (but not _entirely_) paid for by GPU makers through marketing support programs. I'm not talking about chipmakers' first-party ads, I'm talking about ads from Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, EVGA, Powercolor, Sapphire, etc. _All_ of these are significantly funded by chipmakers.



OK i get it now. Cross promotion. You're initial point was EVGA would be more supported then the rest, right. I doubt it, small bussiness the others would find out and get pissed, and this things always come out inside the bussiness, employes that move for example. But even if they have better deals that should not be meaningfull for the bottomline, case and point what happened to EVGA and the others are still standing.


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## AnotherReader (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... and you're still not understanding what I'm saying. All official Nvidia material also uses their Founders designs. That's not what I'm talking about at all - I'm talking about brands marketing their own products - say, EVGA promoting EVGA GPUs - and how this marketing is largely (but not _entirely_) paid for by GPU makers through marketing support programs. I'm not talking about chipmakers' first-party ads, I'm talking about ads from Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, EVGA, Powercolor, Sapphire, etc. _All_ of these are significantly funded by chipmakers.
> 
> 
> Sure. That's been promised for, what, a decade now? It has arguably gotten better in that time period, but it's still nowhere near a replacement for local hardware. The vast majority of the world is nowhere near having the internet connectivity necessary for this, and even for those who do, the disadvantages of cloud gaming typically far outweigh the advantages.


I wish I could give the conclusion of this post a thousand upvotes. *APUs, by their very nature, will never be a replacement even for the midrange discrete GPUs like the RX6600*. APUs made by merchant chip makers, i.e. everyone besides Apple, are limited by many economic factors from achieving their technological limits:

Limited memory bandwidth
Sharing of limited memory bandwidth with the CPU
limited die size (small dies for CPUs, and only a fraction of that space is devoted to the GPU)
limited power (35 to 65 W) compared to a discrete GPU (north of 100 W)
All of these are limits imposed by the necessity of these APUs being available in affordable laptops. When these limits don't apply, we can see great APUs like the various console chips that AMD has made. However, this will *never* be the case for the APUs that we can buy for desktops or buy in the form of a whole laptop.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> OK i get it now. Cross promotion. You're initial point was EVGA would be more supported then the rest, right. I doubt it, small bussiness the others would find out and get pissed, and this things always come out inside the bussiness, employes that move for example. But even if they have better deals that should not be meaningfull for the bottomline, case and point what happened to EVGA and the others are still standing.


... you seem to have a very ill informed idea of the relative power of the parties involved in such a negotiation. If, say, Gigabyte tells Nvidia "we heard you give more marketing support relative to sales to EVGA - we want you to give us a matching deal" - do you imagine Nvidia would just keel over and give them that? Of course not. Nvidia would say "Yes, and they are an exclusive partner, and they get more support in exchange for that exclusivity. You also work with AMD, so you'll not get the same level of support". There is literally nothing whatsoever an AIB could do about this outside of ending their deal with Nvidia outright. Which Nvidia knows, and reportedly uses to strong-arm AIB partners into very, very lopsided deals. AIB partners _are_ pissed at Nvidia. They have been for years. But they haven't got a choice, unless they're willing to significantly scale back their business - which most companies aren't.

As for marketing support not being meaningful for their bottom lines ... what planet are you living on? Do you think they'd survive without marketing? Do you think AIB partners have the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars necessary for a significant marketing presence in all the markets they are a part of? 'Cause they dont - outside of possibly Asus, being the juggernaut they are (but they also have way more products to market, which again eats into these funds).

When your highest revenue product segment has low single digit profit margins, even if you sell millions of that product and ASPs are high, you'll still be struggling to cover basic operating costs for your business, let alone have cash left over for marketing, R&D, etc.


AnotherReader said:


> I wish I could give the conclusion of this post a thousand upvotes. *APUs, by their very nature, will never be a replacement even for the midrange discrete GPUs like the RX6600*. APUs made by merchant chip makers, i.e. everyone besides Apple, are limited by many economic factors from achieving their technological limits:
> 
> Limited memory bandwidth
> Sharing of limited memory bandwidth with the CPU
> ...


Yeah, APUs have promise in theory (and current ones are pretty good for their power level) but the board and platform requirements to realize that promise just don't really make sense for consumer applications. Special motherboards with GDDR on board would be exorbitantly expensive and difficult to sell; on-chip memory (like HBM) is expensive and very difficult to fit in a small package, etc. DDR5 has some promise towards alleviating this, but as you say you'd still struggle to come close to an RX 6600. I for one _really_ hope AMD pushes their APUs higher in terms of GPU power - 100-150W with a 20CU GPU would be amazing, even with just dual channel DDR5 - but I don't see them taking over PC gaming any time soon, that's for sure.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> It's not quite that simple - they likely get significantly better deals, pricing and marketing partnerships through being an exclusive partner.


IDK if you recall the drama over Nvidia's main stipulation of its partnership program, it resulted in partners that sold _other brands_ were treated poorly, more than those that sold only Nvidia cards.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> IDK if you recall the drama over Nvidia's main stipulation of its partnership program, it resulted in partners that sold _other brands_ were treated poorly, more than those that sold only Nvidia cards.


Yep, the GPP was essentially an attempt at taking this type of scheme and pushing it into an even more explicitly anticompetitive form, with really draconian requirements like Geforce and Radeon cards not sharing branding (anyone remember the never-really-launched AREZ branding that was supposed to replace ROG on AMD products?) and an intensification of the inequality of funds provided. I have absolutely zero doubt that their regular marketing support programmes still differentiate between exclusive and non-exclusive partners - that is somewhat reasonable, after all - it just depends on the degree, as well as other factors such as the size and status of the AIB partner in question.


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## SOAREVERSOR (Sep 19, 2022)

It's not about theory, it's about what's profitable.  Point blank AIB GPUs do not make sense.  They are going to die.  APUs and high profit cloud based GPUs where you pay x per month for 30 fps 720, more for 60 fps 1080p, more for 240 fps 1080, more for 4k 120hz, and also charge by detail settings does make economic sense.  And that's the future of PC gaming.  You'll lease a could item and pay say 100 a month for a good one, you won't own the hardware.

Every industry player has been admitting this is where it's going.  To many outright stating this is what they are going to do.  The notion of you owning the hardware is as idiotic as that software isn't subscription based.  You're going to rent an RTX, you don't get a vote in this.


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## AnotherReader (Sep 19, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> It's not about theory, it's about what's profitable.  Point blank AIB GPUs do not make sense.  They are going to die.  APUs and high profit cloud based GPUs where you pay x per month for 30 fps 720, more for 60 fps 1080p, more for 240 fps 1080, more for 4k 120hz, and also charge by detail settings does make economic sense.  And that's the future of PC gaming.  You'll lease a could item and pay say 100 a month for a good one, you won't own the hardware.
> 
> Every industry player has been admitting this is where it's going.  To many outright stating this is what they are going to do.  The notion of you owning the hardware is as idiotic as that software isn't subscription based.  You're going to rent an RTX, you don't get a vote in this.


If that turns out to be the case, Nvidia will be the loser, because big cloud companies won't be beholden to their terms like ASUS or EVGA. They also won't pay Nvidia as much for the chips as the AIB partners have to. If Nvidia plays hardball, they could always throw money at AMD or Intel, and kill Nvidia's consumer gaming division forever.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 19, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> Point blank AIB GPUs do not make sense. They are going to die.


Not true. Atleast not anytime soon, maybe not even in this decade.


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> It's not about theory, it's about what's profitable.  Point blank AIB GPUs do not make sense.  They are going to die.  APUs and high profit cloud based GPUs where you pay x per month for 30 fps 720, more for 60 fps 1080p, more for 240 fps 1080, more for 4k 120hz, and also charge by detail settings does make economic sense.  And that's the future of PC gaming.  You'll lease a could item and pay say 100 a month for a good one, you won't own the hardware.
> 
> Every industry player has been admitting this is where it's going.  To many outright stating this is what they are going to do.  The notion of you owning the hardware is as idiotic as that software isn't subscription based.  You're going to rent an RTX, you don't get a vote in this.


What "makes economic sense" doesn't matter whatsoever unless you can convince people to actually use these things. And so far, cloud gaming isn't convincing anyone. High performance APUs are great in consoles, but are fundamentally unsuited for desktop PC use due to significant feature mismatch.

And, crucially, you'll struggle _a lot_ to get people to pay anywhere near $100/month even for a "2160p120" cloud gaming plan - 'cause the experience will be noticeably worse and more complicated than dedicated local hardware, access to games will be more limited (and thus more complicated), and you'll be reliant on an unreliable internet connectionto deliver what will always be a noticeably worse quality image. Any game with a dark look is nigh on unplayable from the cloud due to how video compression handles blacks and dark tones, and you can forget about meaningful HDR, let alone clarity and sharpness anywhere near a local game. What you're drawing up might be the fever dream of a bunch of silicon valley types, but it's unlikely to pan out in real life.


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## Anymal (Sep 19, 2022)

xmanrigger said:


> LOLOLOLOL! Thanks for the laugh. You made my day! Got anything more funny?


Not funny! Read TPU reviews of last 3 generations and you will be convinced.


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## Berfs1 (Sep 19, 2022)

trparky said:


> Why all this talk about Intel ARC? It's basically dead. Buried six feet under. It's such an absolute failure.


Says who? People who want Intel to fail.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 19, 2022)

medi01 said:


> Seems to be something about Huang's personality at play. And it is hurting NV in major ways.


Nvidia stands for:

Price gouging customers and partners
Proprietary bullshit in hardware features, software, API, and of course physical compatibility 
Bribery of devs with tools that are intentionally crippled on competitors' hardware.
Closed-source _everything_ when they rely on open-source APIs, OSes, and frameworks.
Manipulation/unfair treatment of independent media who publicise flaws/truth
Antitrust lawsuits with numerous large-scale global entities
Running foul of legislation in around half the regions they operate in
Attempting to monopolise segments that are critical to healthy market operation (ARM was unsuccessful but other buyouts have succeeded and more will surely come)
There's a lot more than just this list, but I think every single point on this list is individually a pretty damning black mark against Nvidia.


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## kapone32 (Sep 19, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Nvidia stands for:
> 
> Price gouging customers and partners
> Proprietary bullshit in hardware features, software, API, and of course physical compatibility
> ...


This is why I have been been buying AMD since a personal experience with the GTS 450.


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## Chrispy_ (Sep 19, 2022)

Dragokar said:


> The PSUs are okay and sell, but the boards are sitting in the shelves like dead ducks. I really doubt they can survive on PSUs and will close down if they don't partner with AMD or Intel.


Given than EVGA cites the US and UK as it's two primary regions, EVGA boards are super-rare over here, and they're terrible value compared to the competition. Sure, if you're after high-end perhaps that's a different market, but isn't the ultra-flagship partly about reputation and kudos too? If true, then surely Asus/MSI have that segment tied up with ROG Maximus and MEG Godlike and other pretenders are just that - pretenders.


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## SOAREVERSOR (Sep 19, 2022)

Valantar said:


> What "makes economic sense" doesn't matter whatsoever unless you can convince people to actually use these things. And so far, cloud gaming isn't convincing anyone. High performance APUs are great in consoles, but are fundamentally unsuited for desktop PC use due to significant feature mismatch.
> 
> And, crucially, you'll struggle _a lot_ to get people to pay anywhere near $100/month even for a "2160p120" cloud gaming plan - 'cause the experience will be noticeably worse and more complicated than dedicated local hardware, access to games will be more limited (and thus more complicated), and you'll be reliant on an unreliable internet connectionto deliver what will always be a noticeably worse quality image. Any game with a dark look is nigh on unplayable from the cloud due to how video compression handles blacks and dark tones, and you can forget about meaningful HDR, let alone clarity and sharpness anywhere near a local game. What you're drawing up might be the fever dream of a bunch of silicon valley types, but it's unlikely to pan out in real life.



You don't have a choice.  They will force this on you, and if you want to game you will eat it and like it.  And that's the only thing you will be able to do.  That's the free market, the seller sets the term, you don't like it then fuck you you don't get to touch anything.


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## RandallFlagg (Sep 19, 2022)

I have a feeling this is going to backfire on Nvidia.  Not so much EVGA, but levitating the prices like this.

I've been on Nvidia for most of a decade now, but was using Radeons and even Athlon X4s in the 2000s (after 3dfx started to fail).  

The price delta between equivalent upper midrange parts between Nvidia and AMD is growing.  I've always said, it's worth an extra $50-$75 to avoid software issues, keep Nvidia's longer support for its cards, and so on.  I still believe that to be true.   However, the delta is getting too big.  

Objectively, the 6700XT performs a little better than a 3060 Ti, and consumes a little less power.  Its price is just $20 more than a vanilla 3060.

Although I had planned to wait until after new years for a GPU, I may go for a new one along with a platform upgrade in the next 4-6 weeks.  I'd like to see what the A750/A770 can do first though.  

For the first time in about 10 years, I'm not really even thinking about Nvidia's cards.  My thinking now is all about 6700XT vs whatever Intel winds up releasing.


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 19, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> You don't have a choice.  They will force this on you, and if you want to game you will eat it and like it.  And that's the only thing you will be able to do.  That's the free market, the seller sets the term, you don't like it then fuck you you don't get to touch anything.


Or man b builds an alternative and everyone buys that, capitalism heard of it.
There's been cries of that shit year's yet here we are, stadia did well.

I won't be surprised if other aibs follow Evga out that door.


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## wheresmycar (Sep 19, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Nvidia stands for:
> 
> Price gouging customers and partners
> Proprietary bullshit in hardware features, software, API, and of course physical compatibility
> ...



ooouch!! So its more than just God like exalted pricing for profit. 

Some of the comments on this thread have been an eye opener for me. I was looking forward to RTX 4000 ... i think you guys have weighed down the eagerness in me. But as always, if the price is right im on it like a rabbit! 

Just curious any idea when AMD will drop next Gen graphics cards?


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## Valantar (Sep 19, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> You don't have a choice.  They will force this on you, and if you want to game you will eat it and like it.  And that's the only thing you will be able to do.  That's the free market, the seller sets the term, you don't like it then fuck you you don't get to touch anything.


For that to happen you need a single actor or a consolidated group of actors willing to force this to happen. But the gaming market is wide open, with many actors involved - console makers in fierce competition, hardware makers across PC, console and mobile, software vendors across all kinds of platforms, +++. There is nobody with the kind of clout necessary to implement the kind of shift you're describing here. Not even close. Google have tried, and failed miserably. Microsoft is working on it, but showing zero signs of pushing for a cloud-only future - they just want you to buy Game Pass, and will  happily sell you a console if that makes you do so. On the PC, nobody has that kind of power, as hardware and software sales have nothing to do with each other.



wheresmycar said:


> ooouch!! So its more than just God like exalted pricing for profit.
> 
> Some of the comments on this thread have been an eye opener for me. I was looking forward to RTX 4000 ... i think you guys have weighed down the eagerness in me. But as always, if the price is right im on it like a rabbit!
> 
> Just curious any idea when AMD will drop next Gen graphics cards?


Before the end of the year, November is rumored but there's no confirmation AFAIK. (IMO Nov is late unless it's a true hard launch, given that they'll miss the holiday season by launching then - but if that's when the cards are ready I guess that's when they're ready.)


----------



## saki630 (Sep 19, 2022)

I wish Radeon was still a good company able to be #1 against nVidia greed and gluttony. We need a good card now after 10 years of no competition at a price we can afford.


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## cvaldes (Sep 19, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> Just curious any idea when AMD will drop next Gen graphics cards?



AMD has repeatedly stated before the end of 2022. There's a window of opportunity for holiday sales so most likely sometime in October or the first half of November.

This would not be unusual behavior specific to AMD, pretty much all consumer electronics companies keep the holidays in mind. Remember that both PS5 and Xbox Series X|S launched for holiday 2020. Apple likes to have their holiday product lineup finalized by early November at latest.

AMD Radeon RX 6800 and 6800 XT debuted in mid-November 2020 with the 6900 XT following in very early December.

Without a doubt, AMD will stagger their release over months, starting with their high end models (7900, 7800). I assume Dr. Su's keynote at January's CES tradeshow will include a launch of some mid-range Radeon 70 series models.


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Before the end of the year, November is rumored but there's no confirmation AFAIK





cvaldes said:


> AMD has repeatedly stated before the end of 2022



I need to keep up with stuff.. this is news to me. From what i gathered, 2022 would see AM5, RPL and possibly RTX 4000. If we're getting next Gen AMD cards too... woohooo! hehe

Gonna wait this one out until all the reviews/feedback is widely available (esp. the TPU family's input) before pulling the trigger.


----------



## maxfly (Sep 20, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> You don't have a choice.  They will force this on you, and if you want to game you will eat it and like it.  And that's the only thing you will be able to do.  That's the free market, the seller sets the term, you don't like it then fuck you you don't get to touch anything.


Hehehe
Your example of, free market, is all kinda bass ackward.
I'll stick to reality thanks


----------



## chrcoluk (Sep 20, 2022)

freeagent said:


> Those Founders cards look pretty wimpy. They look like a boutique product that won't last the test of time, though they are probably fine, I am sure. Except the disassembly. Then you look at something from EVGA and you think damn that is a serious piece of tech. Then you feel the weight, its rigidity, and you think dam that is nice. Mmm. Someone posted that 3080Ti shot, that is a purty card, I would touch it inappropriately.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Got a little carried away


I take it you not handled a 3000 series FE card then?

The things are heavy, the shroud is metal.  Anything but wimpy. 

The gigabyte 1080ti I owned before my 3080 FE (granted not an EVGA) I felt I had to grip it so loose when removing it from case else I would snap the paper like shroud.


----------



## freeagent (Sep 20, 2022)

chrcoluk said:


> I take it you not handled a 3000 series FE card then?
> 
> The things are heavy, the shroud is metal.  Anything but wimpy.
> 
> The gigabyte 1080ti I owned before my 3080 FE (granted not an EVGA) I felt I had to grip it so loose when removing it from case else I would snap the paper like shroud.


No sir, that's why I said they look like that 

I would still buy one... even more so now knowing it's all heatsink, I have the perfect case for it


----------



## OneMoar (Sep 20, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Nvidia stands for:
> 
> Price gouging customers and partners
> Proprietary bullshit in hardware features, software, API, and of course physical compatibility
> ...


and if AMD was top dog it would be exactly the same story likely worse


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> and if AMD was top dog it would be exactly the same story likely worse


Lol, why on earth "likely worse"? Mostly the same? Sure. But why on earth would they be worse? That's about as clear a demonstration of prejudice and bias as is possible - knowing this is literally impossible, after all - so... well done I guess?


----------



## 1d10t (Sep 20, 2022)

More like chicken egg situation, and if history tell us anything, XFX breaks with them and go with AMD, I think I know the problems.


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## OneMoar (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Lol, why on earth "likely worse"? Mostly the same? Sure. But why on earth would they be worse? That's about as clear a demonstration of prejudice and bias as is possible - knowing this is literally impossible, after all - so... well done I guess?


say it with me
corporations are not your friends
AMD aren't the good guys, they exist to make as much money as possible something they suck at compared to intel or nvidia 

I could write a lengthy post breaking down AMDs corporate culture and the potential devisationg effects underdogs syndrome can create
but I have a feeling the point would be lost on you
good day sir


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2022)

1d10t said:


> XFX


@R-T-B Here's another good brand!

After having watched the following, I'm wondering if EVGA has a plan they have not revealed yet..








(yes, I realize this video might have been posted already, but I haven't read through the whole of this thread)


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## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> say it with me
> corporations are not your friends
> AMD aren't the good guys, they exist to make as much money as possible something they suck at compared to intel or nvidia


Please stop acting like a belittling asshole. That'd be nice, thank you. Nothing I have said here comes even remotely close to saying that AMD is anyone's friend.


OneMoar said:


> I could write a lengthy post breaking down AMDs corporate culture and the potential devisationg effects underdogs syndrome can create
> but I have a feeling the point would be lost on you
> good day sir


But ... so what? None of that is grounds for arguing that _AMD would be worse_. It's just an argument for nobody being better than anyone else. Please stop projecting this weird kind of reverse fanboyism onto me - my objection to your post isn't about saying AMD would be just as bad - I've said so myself - and more - plenty of times. My objection is to you stating as fact something that is pure and utter speculation. They _might_ be worse. Or they might not. We have literally no way of knowing. Speculating as to the effects of AMD's corporate culture and what this would cause if they suddenly were in a reversed market position (which wouldn't happen overnight, and the change would inevitably have effects on said corporate culture) is such absurd conjecture that I don't even know where to begin. It's not relevant as an analysis of our current reality as this literally _won't_ happen. AMD is indeed not anyone's friend, but saying that is not the same as for some reason  arguing that they would be worse than Nvidia if their positions were reversed. That is only - and I repeat, _only_ - a rhetorical tactic to take away responsibility from Nvidia for their actions through equivocations and whataboutism. So please, please stop. You're just showing your bias here, even through these very transparent attempts at being neutral.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Please stop acting like a belittling asshole.


Seriously? What did you expect?

This EVGA situation is starting to set in... I've taken stock. Most of my GPU inventory is EVGA. At home, most of my cards are EVGA. This is a serious problem!
I can echo much of what Jay expressed..


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 20, 2022)

as always the best independent perspective. This one was clearly not on the EVGA payroll like GN or Jayz.


----------



## medi01 (Sep 20, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> Nvidia stands for:
> 
> Price gouging customers and partners
> Proprietary bullshit in hardware features, software, API, and of course physical compatibility
> ...


Good summary.



OneMoar said:


> corporations are not your friends
> AMD aren't the good guys


No corporation is your friend, but it doesn't mean all corporations are as filthy as NV.
In fact, NV is probably the world champion.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Sep 20, 2022)

wheresmycar said:


> ooouch!! So its more than just God like exalted pricing for profit.
> 
> Some of the comments on this thread have been an eye opener for me. I was looking forward to RTX 4000 ... i think you guys have weighed down the eagerness in me. But as always, if the price is right im on it like a rabbit!
> 
> Just curious any idea when AMD will drop next Gen graphics cards?


I mean, I'm still buying Nvidia because I need the shitty proprietary crap that Nvidia have poisoned the market with (VMWare Horizons is tied to Nvidia, CUDA applications dominate the content-creation market with nobody willing to use OpenCL, DirectCompute, or other open-API stuff) I don't have to like Nvidia to buy their stuff, unfortunately.

The Nvidia stuff is being announced on Sept 27th I think. That probably means that you can buy a 4080/4090 in late October/November if you don't mind being price-gouged and fighting over the first wave of stock.

Less is known about the RDNA3 cards, but I believe they are slated for official launch announcement in 1H October and presumably will on the market, priced to compete with RTX4000-series before the end of the year.

The midrange stuff, presumably in the sub-$600 range, is unlikely to be available for 6-9 months at least, and AMD are rumoured to be respinning RDNA2 cards like the 6600 and 6700 on TSMC 6nm to save costs, improve power efficiency, and hold down the fort for the mid-to-low end this generation.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> AMD are rumoured to be respinning RDNA2 cards like the 6600 and 6700 on TSMC 6nm to save costs, improve power efficiency, and hold down the fort for the mid-to-low end this generation.


Honestly, if the RX 7500 (XT) and 7600 (XT) were 6nm respins of the 6600 (XT) and 6700 (XT) with a price cut, I'd be all for that (especially with a decode block update for AV1 support, and DP 2.0 support). These are great GPUs, and if we can get cheaper entry and (lower) midrange offerings by warming over an existing design, that sounds like a win-win to me. Even if RDNA3 delivers its promised 50% perf/W increase, the 6600 is still the most efficient GPU of the current generation, so it's not like a 6nm respin of it would be a terrible power hog like some previous rebrands have been.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> as always the best independent perspective. This one was clearly not on the EVGA payroll like GN or Jayz.


As valid as that is, the reason for AIB manufacturers over-ordering silicon from Nvidia *isn't entirely their own fault, or greed.* 

Nvidia have this hideously-backhanded "allocation system" whereby AIBs can only get allocation if they jump through hoops and sign pretty unfair contracts that stipulate, effectively, that Nvidia can shit all over them if they don't accept the terrible terms. There have been videos on this in the past covered by various other channels but it's an abusive relationship that Nvidia ties AIBs into. AIBs can't order silicon as needed, they have to promise to buy stuff several months ahead of ordering to earn favour for allocation and risk losing everything if they default on those promises.

If I had to describe it in leyman terms, Nvidia are passing _their _risk of market volatility over to their AIBs, without passing on the rewards of market volatility by both undercutting AIBs with their FEs and limiting what the AIBs can do with their flagships through driver and silicon chokes. All AIBs, not just EVGA, are screwed over by this process - and it's something that companies like Asus and Gigabyte - who manufacture for both Nvidia and AMD simultaneously - have called out as an Nvidia-exclusive issue.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Seriously? What did you expect?
> 
> This EVGA situation is starting to set in... I've taken stock. Most of my GPU inventory is EVGA. At home, most of my cards are EVGA. This is a serious problem!
> I can echo much of what Jay expressed..



That guy is probably among the worst sources for an unbias / unemotional analysis re:EVGA in particular.  He is going to lose a big sponsor.  All of the really large tech-tube channels lost most of their veracity years ago when they became large money making enterprises.  I've also watched newer up and coming ones, which I won't name, become corrupted as they grew.  

And it's nothing new, same old story as it has always been.  Once the people who run a 'news / review' site needs clicks/views/sponsors to make a living, keep their employees employed, and feed their family their reporting becomes (necessarily) slanted in order to facilitate that, and their data becomes suspect.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Lol, why on earth "likely worse"? Mostly the same? Sure. But why on earth would they be worse? That's about as clear a demonstration of prejudice and bias as is possible - knowing this is literally impossible, after all - so... well done I guess?


Yep. Navi22 and Navi23 are great products and still very relevant architecture given the PS5 and XBSX will be around for a good few years still; They always were more energy-efficient than the Ampere competition and their underwhelming DXR performance is still, to this day, kinda irrelevant because titles that NEED heavy RTX features tend to run like absolute shit even on a 3070. 

I think 3080 is the first card I would say can play CP2077 or Control at 1440p60 with raytracing enabled. I know DLSS/FSR can help but IMO they're a crutch and they both still look worse _in motion_ than the equivalent, low-resolution native output. Opinion, yes - but I game at 1080p120 native in preference to 4K60 with DLSS by choice every time.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 20, 2022)

Chrispy_ said:


> As valid as that is, the reason for AIB manufacturers over-ordering silicon from Nvidia *isn't entirely their own fault, or greed.*
> 
> Nvidia have this hideously-backhanded "allocation system" whereby AIBs can only get allocation if they jump through hoops and sign pretty unfair contracts that stipulate, effectively, that Nvidia can shit all over them if they don't accept the terrible terms. There have been videos on this in the past covered by various other channels but it's an abusive relationship that Nvidia ties AIBs into. AIBs can't order silicon as needed, they have to promise to buy stuff several months ahead of ordering to earn favour for allocation and risk losing everything if they default on those promises.
> 
> If I had to describe it in leyman terms, Nvidia are passing _their _risk of market volatility over to their AIBs, without passing on the rewards of market volatility by both undercutting AIBs with their FEs and limiting what the AIBs can do with their flagships through driver and silicon chokes. All AIBs, not just EVGA, are screwed over by this process - and it's something that companies like Asus and Gigabyte - who manufacture for both Nvidia and AMD simultaneously - have called out as an Nvidia-exclusive issue.



You're just making is point. Nvidia doesn't make chips, they have to contract them with Samsung or TSMC. Nvidia's clients are the AIB's for the most part (first party sales are very low), they don't have direct contact with retailers, off course the AIB's have to commit to orders so Nvidia can manage their own orders to the fabs.

This is a failure to manage sales and stock on the part of EVGA and just shifting blame to Nvidia seems exaggerated. Nvidia is not blameless, is to big and the big guy will always flex against the smaller ones, but this is BS as it is presented.

You can't ask Nvidia to take back stock, as much as Nvidia can ask Samsung to take back stock of the dies. These are public companies, they have to answer to shareholders. There is a chain and everyone plays it's part.


----------



## Fasola (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> as always the best independent perspective. This one was clearly not on the EVGA payroll like GN or Jayz.


Stop lying. If you had watched GN's video you would have seen that, at multiple points during the video, he stresses to take the information with a grain of salt as we only have EVGA's perspective for now.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 20, 2022)

Honestly the defensive comments are funny.


Bomby569 said:


> You're just making is point. Nvidia doesn't make chips, they have to contract them with Samsung or TSMC. Nvidia's clients are the AIB's for the most part (first party sales are very low), they don't have direct contact with retailers, off course the AIB's have to commit to orders so Nvidia can manage their own orders to the fabs.
> 
> This is a failure to manage sales and stock on the part of EVGA and just shifting blame to Nvidia seems exaggerated. Nvidia is not blameless, is to big and the big guy will always flex against the smaller ones, but this is BS as it is presented.
> 
> You can't ask Nvidia to take back stock, as much as Nvidia can ask Samsung to take back stock of the dies. These are public companies, they have to answer to shareholders. There is a chain and everyone plays it's part.


I think the main thing your theory is ignoring is Nvidia sets the terms, where you think the AIB has a say.
That's not the way it looks to be.


----------



## Tomorrow (Sep 20, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> say it with me
> corporations are not your friends
> AMD aren't the good guys, they exist to make as much money as possible something they suck at compared to intel or nvidia
> 
> ...


So how many AMD exclusive AIB's have quit in the past 22 years because AMD (ATI back then) is so awful?
The way i see it AIB's are *going* to AMD to retain atleast some control and margins while Nvidia bleeds them dry.


----------



## kapone32 (Sep 20, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> say it with me
> corporations are not your friends
> AMD aren't the good guys, they exist to make as much money as possible something they suck at compared to intel or nvidia
> 
> ...


They are nowhere near as desultory as Nvidia though so by default they are the good guys (there are only 2). Well my 6800Xt cost me less than a 3080 and I have more VRAM and longer support for what a GPU is made for, Gaming. Now we will see the real value of Gsync. If you don't think that EVGA will not establish a relationship with AMD you should look up the history of XFX. Do you know why ATI survived long enough to be bought by AMD? Nvidia is the company that juiced the price of the 3090 and then paid Youtube to run a competition on 3090 SLI performance to have the envy be felt with 2 cards that were the price of 2 decent used vehicles (per-pandemic).


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You're just making is point. Nvidia doesn't make chips, they have to contract them with Samsung or TSMC. Nvidia's clients are the AIB's for the most part (first party sales are very low), they don't have direct contact with retailers, off course the AIB's have to commit to orders so Nvidia can manage their own orders to the fabs.
> 
> This is a failure to manage sales and stock on the part of EVGA and just shifting blame to Nvidia seems exaggerated. Nvidia is not blameless, is to big and the big guy will always flex against the smaller ones, but this is BS as it is presented.
> 
> You can't ask Nvidia to take back stock, as much as Nvidia can ask Samsung to take back stock of the dies. These are public companies, they have to answer to shareholders. There is a chain and everyone plays it's part.


Is anyone asking Nvidia to take back stock? And if so, what are the conditions under which this is being asked? If said stock was purchased through a promise of some future development that has since not come to pass, asking this is absolutely not unreasonable. Large scale business deals are rarely this cut-and-dried.

And, crucially, you're entirely ignoring the power dynamics in play here. Nvidia is the only company involved in these transactions with the economic power to hold any kind of buffer stock of products - AIB partners don't have the scale or margins to do so, which also makes it unreasonable for Nvidia to push that responsibility onto them. If one wants fair business practices, it is then entirely reasonable for Nvidia to bear the burden of holding such stock and setting up a system for dynamically allocating stock to AIB partners as needed. Such deals can still include long-term purchase agreements, they just need some built-in flexibility. Nvidia's deals with chip fab owners are an excellent example of this: Nvidia agrees to buy a certain amount of wafers over a certain time period - with some flexibility, but not a lot. But crucially, they have a lot of freedom in deciding on the fly what those wafers will be made into, despite this being far from trivial to implement in practice. What we're seeing inklings of here is Nvidia not giving the same type of flexibility to their downstream partners as they themselves enjoy from their upstream partners - instead passing the buck downwards to (strongly implied: replaceable) "partners" who are thus forced to bear the burden of risk rather than the much more financially stable Nvidia.

The core point here being: you're arguing from an explicitly naïve perspective that seems utterly blind to power and its implications and consequences - a blindness that's endemic to people espousing the virtues of "free markets", and the same blindness that renders these people fundamentally unable to see why said markets aren't free at all. Ignoring power relations in business doesn't get you closer to any kind of truth or justice or freedom, it just makes you blind to the realities of the world, and thus makes your analyses of how the world works deeply flawed.

The facts of the matter are these: without Nvidia, AIB partners have no GPUs to sell, and without Nvidia, Samsung has _real_ trouble selling all their wafers (or at least has to take the increased cost of managing hundreds of smaller scale customers rather than one major one, if they are able to sell them and don't have to scale back production). Nvidia doesn't have _all_ the power - they're still reliant on both chip supply, other components, and AIB partners for selling their products - but they have significant advantages in both relations (when the chip supplier is TSMC you could argue that they're pretty evenly matched on that side, as TSMC has no trouble selling every wafer they can make, unlike Samsung). And, crucially, Nvidia is widely documented to use this power for all it's worth, having no scruples about going into outright anticompetitive practices if they see the opportunity to gain from this. This isn't saying that AMD would necessarily be better if the tables were turned, but we literally can't know that, so such speculation is nothing more than meaningless equivocation - the fact of the matter is, Nvidia is a market juggernaut that loves to throw their weight around at the cost of their business "partners" for the sole purpose of enriching themselves and their shareholders.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 20, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Honestly the defensive comments are funny.
> 
> I think the main thing your theory is ignoring is Nvidia sets the terms, where you think the AIB has a say.
> That's not the way it looks to be.



does Nvidia sets the terms when it goes to buy fab space on TSMC or Samsung? didn't TSMC just increased the price period.

>Nvidia: I want x wafers, but if i can't sell them i want a discount.
<TMSC: so you don't want wafers, got it.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> does Nvidia sets the terms when it goes to buy fab space on TSMC or Samsung? didn't TSMC just increased the price period.
> 
> >Nvidia: I want x wafers, but if i can't sell them i want a discount.
> <TMSC: so you don't want wafers, got it.


Given that TSMC is pretty much _the only_ Nvidia partner that has any kind of comparable market power in their industry, using this as an example representative of anything else is ... well, rather specious as an argument. And, crucially, TSMC doesn't have a reputation for being hard-line, bad-faith negotiators - unlike Nvidia. The negotiations would likely be _a lot_ more complex than that.


----------



## AnotherReader (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> does Nvidia sets the terms when it goes to buy fab space on TSMC or Samsung? didn't TSMC just increased the price period.
> 
> >Nvidia: I want x wafers, but if i can't sell them i want a discount.
> <TMSC: so you don't want wafers, got it.


I think you don't understand that Samsung is not the first choice of leading fab less chip designers. Nvidia chose them because they were cheap and had sufficient capacity, not because they are in the same league as TSMC. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Nvidia has a different relationship with Samsung than the one they have with TSMC. Samsung needs Nvidia to provide the volume for the nodes that are suitable for high power GPUs, but TSMC doesn't care if Nvidia uses them or not.


----------



## kapone32 (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Is anyone asking Nvidia to take back stock? And if so, what are the conditions under which this is being asked? If said stock was purchased through a promise of some future development that has since not come to pass, asking this is absolutely not unreasonable. Large scale business deals are rarely this cut-and-dried.
> 
> And, crucially, you're entirely ignoring the power dynamics in play here. Nvidia is the only company involved in these transactions with the economic power to hold any kind of buffer stock of products - AIB partners don't have the scale or margins to do so, which also makes it unreasonable for Nvidia to push that responsibility onto them. If one wants fair business practices, it is then entirely reasonable for Nvidia to bear the burden of holding such stock and setting up a system for dynamically allocating stock to AIB partners as needed. Such deals can still include long-term purchase agreements, they just need some built-in flexibility. Nvidia's deals with chip fab owners are an excellent example of this: Nvidia agrees to buy a certain amount of wafers over a certain time period - with some flexibility, but not a lot. But crucially, they have a lot of freedom in deciding on the fly what those wafers will be made into, despite this being far from trivial to implement in practice. What we're seeing inklings of here is Nvidia not giving the same type of flexibility to their downstream partners as they themselves enjoy from their upstream partners - instead passing the buck downwards to (strongly implied: replaceable) "partners" who are thus forced to bear the burden of risk rather than the much more financially stable Nvidia.
> 
> ...


EVGA are/were poised to be the most exposed to the GPU crash as unlike the other brands they have a limited product stack. All of the other vendors have diversified their portfolio to include Monitors, Keyboards, Mice, Cases, Storage, PSU, MB and GPUs. Someone has to be left to pay for the premium that any GPU that was sourced in 2021 still holds. They would like it to be the consumer but who wants to pay 500+ Canadian for a 3060Ti /6700Xt. Even the 6600/3060 at 349 is still too expensive.


----------



## ARF (Sep 20, 2022)

This is a great news. We have been repeating all the time that nvidia is a dirty business and the people should open their eyes and start buying the superior Sapphire Radeon line.
Stop this silly fanboy love with nvidia. It's getting ridiculous!


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

kapone32 said:


> EVGA are/were poised to be the most exposed to the GPU crash as unlike the other brands they have a limited product stack. All of the other vendors have diversified their portfolio to include Monitors, Keyboards, Mice, Cases, Storage, PSU, MB and GPUs. Someone has to be left to pay for the premium that any GPU that was sourced in 2021 still holds. They would like it to be the consumer but who wants to pay 500+ Canadian for a 3060Ti /6700Xt. Even the 6600/3060 at 349 is still too expensive.


... and what is the main reason why GPU prices are rising? Oh, right: Nvidia pushing prices higher, demanding 60% margins on chips, etc. Yes, BOM costs of various kinds (VRAM, VRMs, PCB material etc.) and engineering costs have also risen, as have material prices in the past couple of years, but Nvidia pushing their margins higher is a major contributor to rising costs. Saying "well, if you want to sell GPUs, you have to expect this to not be profitable, but instead make your money elsewhere" is just an indictment of this industry in general if one is to accept that as an argument. If that's the case, then the entire industry might as well shut down, as it's not economically sustainable.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 20, 2022)

I think we just found out why EVGA ditched Nvidia.

4080 at $899.  Their inventory of old 3080 3090 and 3090 Ti values are going to get shellacked.  

This isn't Nvidia's fault really.  EVGA just had too many cards, they probably wanted Nvidia to delay launch.

JayZ really screwed all those people he told to go out and buy last gen.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I think we just found out why EVGA ditched Nvidia.
> 
> 4080 at $899.  Their inventory of old 3080 3090 and 3090 Ti values are going to get shellacked.
> 
> This isn't Nvidia's fault really.  EVGA just had too many cards, they probably wanted Nvidia to delay launch.


... or they wanted Nvidia to give them a rebate, considering that they've been buying Ampere silicon from them at sky-high prices (with sky-high margins for Nvidia) right up until the run-up of Ampere - and, going by that Nvidia earnings call, are now being "incentivized" towards not flooding the channel with Ampere stock to rid themselves of excess inventory.


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## kapone32 (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... and what is the main reason why GPU prices are rising? Oh, right: Nvidia pushing prices higher, demanding 60% margins on chips, etc. Yes, BOM costs of various kinds (VRAM, VRMs, PCB material etc.) and engineering costs have also risen, as have material prices in the past couple of years, but Nvidia pushing their margins higher is a major contributor to rising costs. Saying "well, if you want to sell GPUs, you have to expect this to not be profitable, but instead make your money elsewhere" is just an indictment of this industry in general if one is to accept that as an argument. If that's the case, then the entire industry might as well shut down, as it's not economically sustainable.


All I was doing was adding context to your statement. You are absolutely right in the first part and this though. Nvidia is if nothing else Greedy.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 20, 2022)

AnotherReader said:


> I think you don't understand that Samsung is not the first choice of leading fab less chip designers. Nvidia chose them because they were cheap and had sufficient capacity, not because they are in the same league as TSMC. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that Nvidia has a different relationship with Samsung than the one they have with TSMC. Samsung needs Nvidia to provide the volume for the nodes that are suitable for high power GPUs, but TSMC doesn't care if Nvidia uses them or not.



So how does any of that translates to Nvidia vs AIB's? Let's see, they all need Nvidia. Sure there's AMD but they would sell a 1/10 or less without Nvidia. Your point is pointless.

Companies need each other, terms aren't set by the buyer, no one does favours because this is business and everyone is looking out for #1. More news at 11


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... or they wanted Nvidia to give them a rebate, considering that they've been buying Ampere silicon from them at sky-high prices (with sky-high margins for Nvidia) right up until the run-up of Ampere - and, going by that Nvidia earnings call, are now being "incentivized" towards not flooding the channel with Ampere stock to rid themselves of excess inventory.



Constant attempts to demonize one company over another get tiresome.  It's not reflective of reality.  Prices will go to whatever the market will bear, no matter who makes what.  

Where are all your posts slamming AMD for inflating Zen 3 prices for two years?   Yeah, that's right, there aren't any are there?


----------



## kapone32 (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> So how does any of that translates to Nvidia vs AIB's? Let's see, they all need Nvidia. Sure there's AMD but they would sell a 1/10 or less without Nvidia. Your point is pointless.
> 
> Companies need each other, terms aren't set by the buyer, no one does favours because this is business and everyone is looking out for #1. More news at 11


It will be interesting to see if EVGA does develop a relationship with AMD what kinds of numbers they would sell.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> So how does any of that translates to Nvidia vs AIB's? Let's see, they all need Nvidia. Sure there's AMD but they would sell a 1/10 or less without Nvidia. Your point is pointless.
> 
> Companies need each other, terms aren't set by the buyer, no one does favours because this is business and everyone is looking out for #1. More news at 11


.... but if Samsung needs Nvidia, then the terms _will_ be set by the buyer. And that's the problem with your logic here: you're arguing as if there's some inherent logic to markets that isn't about power, but about the direction of the sale. This is simply not true. If the buyer has more power, they will have the most say about the sale terms. If not, then the seller will have so. In Nvidia's case, they are the most powerful in _all_ such negotiations, save for with TSMC where they are likely on quite equal footing, if not at a slight disadvantage. But still: this is about who has power, not who is selling vs. who is buying.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> does Nvidia sets the terms when it goes to buy fab space on TSMC or Samsung? didn't TSMC just increased the price period.
> 
> >Nvidia: I want x wafers, but if i can't sell them i want a discount.
> <TMSC: so you don't want wafers, got it.


So what.

Tsmc doesn't then ship Nvidia chips from its own company undercutting Nvidia, do they.

They're not the same thing.

Plus one minute you argue bad management, Evga should have set better terms, though they can't.
Then pull the whataboutism of nvidia's contact with Tsmc et al, disingenuous.


----------



## kapone32 (Sep 20, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Constant attempts to demonize one company over another get tiresome.  It's not reflective of reality.  Prices will go to whatever the market will bear, no matter who makes what.
> 
> Where are all your posts slamming AMD for inflating Zen 3 prices for two years?   Yeah, that's right, there aren't any are there?


The prices were a slap in the face but not worse than the abandonment that those of us who jumped onto TR4. I did enjoy my 2950X and wanted a 3960X but the cost was way too high even though some TRX40 MBs were the same price or less than a high end X570.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 20, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Constant attempts to demonize one company over another get tiresome.  It's not reflective of reality.  Prices will go to whatever the market will bear, no matter who makes what.
> 
> Where are all your posts slamming AMD for inflating Zen 3 prices for two years?   Yeah, that's right, there aren't any are there?


I _really_ can't be bothered to look them up, but unfortunately for you there are quite a few of them on these forums. Funny, that. Almost as if not everyone is a heavily biased fanboy?

I'm not "attempting to demonize" Nvidia - I'm stating facts and my analysis of those facts. You're entirely welcome to disagree, but then you actually have to be able to argue against said analysis, or disprove said facts. If the facts make Nvidia look bad, then that's really not my problem.


----------



## AnotherReader (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> So how does any of that translates to Nvidia vs AIB's? Let's see, they all need Nvidia. Sure there's AMD but they would sell a 1/10 or less without Nvidia. Your point is pointless.
> 
> Companies need each other, terms aren't set by the buyer, no one does favours because this is business and everyone is looking out for #1. More news at 11


Valantar already gave a good response to this comment, but to make it clear, I was responding to your comment about Nvidia's relationship with its foundry partners



> does Nvidia sets the terms when it goes to buy fab space on TSMC or Samsung? didn't TSMC just increased the price period.
> 
> >Nvidia: I want x wafers, but if i can't sell them i want a discount.
> <TMSC: so you don't want wafers, got it.



Relationships aren't symmetrical. With TSMC, Nvidia can't set the terms, because they need them more than TSMC needs them; the A100 and H100 would have been slower and smaller (in terms of transistors and SMXs) on any other node available at the time. However, Samsung needs Nvidia desperately; Nvidia could have ditched them for TSMC if they didn't agree to Nvidia's terms. Samsung's foundry doesn't have a lot of top tier customers; Apple ditched them a long time ago, AMD never relied on them directly, and even Qualcomm has left them for their newest products.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 20, 2022)

Valantar said:


> .... but if Samsung needs Nvidia, then the terms _will_ be set by the buyer. And that's the problem with your logic here: you're arguing as if there's some inherent logic to markets that isn't about power, but about the direction of the sale. This is simply not true. If the buyer has more power, they will have the most say about the sale terms. If not, then the seller will have so. In Nvidia's case, they are the most powerful in _all_ such negotiations, save for with TSMC where they are likely on quite equal footing, if not at a slight disadvantage. But still: this is about who has power, not who is selling vs. who is buying.



Balance of power is one thing, and it's like EVGA is the only company in the world having to deal with a bigger partner, it's the end of the world, the endless internet drama here.

The terms of sale, like not getting back inventory because the client can't manage it, it is not set in terms by the buyer, at most the seller would not sell. You'd have to be a very deep pocket company, dumb, and private, because no shareholders would accept that. Or it was just that one buyer that could abuse the relationship, clearly not the case here, Nvidia can just sell to countless others AIB's that already buy and more would happily line up.


----------



## Tek-Check (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Balance of power is one thing, and it's like EVGA is the only company in the world having to deal with a bigger partner, it's the end of the world, the endless internet drama here.
> 
> The terms of sale, like not getting back inventory because the client can't manage it, it is not set in terms by the buyer, at most the seller would not sell. You'd have to be a very deep pocket company, dumb, and private, because no shareholders would accept that. Or it was just that one buyer that could abuse the relationship, clearly not the case here, Nvidia can just sell to countless others AIB's that already buy and more would happily line up.


True, but EVGA has been a role model of quality builds in recent decade, a true leader in PC environment. Losing such a partner does not happen for petty reasons. There must have been a serious fall out.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 20, 2022)

Tek-Check said:


> True, but EVGA has been a role model of quality builds in recent decade, a true leader in PC environment. Losing such a partner does not happen for petty reasons. There must have been a serious fall out.



you never heard about the 1080 EVGA disaster? or the recent one with that Amazon game. sure "role model of quality"


----------



## Dragokar (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> you never heard about the 1080 EVGA disaster? or the recent one with that Amazon game. sure "role model of quality"


That is true, also the whole ICX drama, but you did not have any trouble to get it changed.

I am still mad that I got no card from the EU-”queue” though, and this long warranties are expensive af. I guess they just got greedy with stock, like NV is undercutting the AIBs with the FE-modells


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> This one was clearly not on the EVGA payroll like GN or Jayz.


Your understanding of how things work needs refreshing.



RandallFlagg said:


> That guy is probably among the worst sources for an unbias / unemotional analysis re:EVGA in particular.


You're of course welcome to your opinion. Don't expect many to agree though. Jay is WELL known for laying down the reality of things, being a straight shooter and not holding his punches. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your nonsense statement because I don't want the TPU mods getting angry at me, and they would.



Bomby569 said:


> you never heard about the 1080 EVGA disaster?


It was a problem, swiftly solved, not a disaster. For perspective, Gigabyte's PSU and RMA crap was a disaster. EVGA has never had anything that qualifies as a disaster because the have ALWAYS been customer service oriented.

I'm with many on being an EVGA "fanboy". *They have EARNED the respect and loyalty they command.* For perspective, if Gigabyte or MSI had dropped out of the GPU race, I would not be lamenting, instead I would likely be very happy and say good riddance..


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Your understanding of how things work needs refreshing.
> 
> 
> You're of course welcome to your opinion. Don't expect many to agree though. Jay is WELL known for laying down the reality of things, being a straight shooter and not holding his punches. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your nonsense statement because I don't want the TPU mods getting angry at me, and they would.



Jay has a self-admitted soft spot for EVGA.  That does _not_ however, mean that he is wrong.  Though I'd trust Steve's take first, because he hates everything more-or-less equally.

(Of course, Steve not liking anything was the reason I basically stopped paying attention to GN...)


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> You're of course welcome to your opinion. Don't expect many to agree though. Jay is WELL known for laying down the reality of things, being a straight shooter and not holding his punches. I'm not going to respond to the rest of your nonsense statement because I don't want the TPU mods getting angry at me, and they would.



Yes there are many lemmings in the world.  

I think it's a biological thing, they believe safety in numbers applies to facts somehow.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2022)

Fasola said:


> Stop lying. If you had watched GN's video you would have seen that, at multiple points during the video, he stresses to take the information with a grain of salt as we only have EVGA's perspective for now.


Well said!



RandallFlagg said:


> Yes there are many lemmings in the world.


Perhaps I was being too subtle. Put a cork in it...



80-watt Hamster said:


> Jay has a self-admitted soft spot for EVGA.  That does _not_ however, mean that he is wrong.  Though I'd trust Steve's take first, because he hates everything more-or-less equally.
> 
> (Of course, Steve not liking anything was the reason I basically stopped paying attention to GN...)


True, and he open states that, but this does not stop him from being objective.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 20, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Perhaps I was being too subtle. Put a cork in it...



And who are you? 

It's kind of funny you seem to respect this guy, JayzTwoCents...  

The guy that just about 6 weeks ago told everyone that they should run out and buy a high end GPU because prices were not going any lower, that was it, the best deal ever.  Apparently after some contacts at EVGA told him so...  It looks to me like he has had to pull that video.

That was right after late July, when he said his sources told him that RTX 4000 series wouldn't launch until summer 2023.

But you go ahead, kneel down, pucker up.  Or should I say, bend over?   What ever it is you just keep on enjoying it bro.  Keep doing you.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 20, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> And who are you?
> 
> It's kind of funny you seem to respect this guy, JayzTwoCents...
> 
> ...


Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself with your ignorance. Shut your pie-hole.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

Dragokar said:


> That is true, also the whole ICX drama, but you did not have any trouble to get it changed.
> 
> I am still mad that I got no card from the EU-”queue” though, and this long warranties are expensive af. I guess they just got greedy with stock, like NV is undercutting the AIBs with the FE-modells



i got one personally, gave to my brother as i got the unexpected email right after i got my card. He is still happy, at the time it was insanely cheap.



lexluthermiester said:


> It was a problem, swiftly solved, not a disaster. For perspective, Gigabyte's PSU and RMA crap was a disaster. EVGA has never had anything that qualifies as a disaster because the have ALWAYS been customer service oriented.
> 
> I'm with many on being an EVGA "fanboy". *They have EARNED the respect and loyalty they command.* For perspective, if Gigabyte or MSI had dropped out of the GPU race, I would not be lamenting, instead I would likely be very happy and say good riddance..



The best RMA is the one you never have to use, not the one that replaces your cards 5 times like happened to a lot of people on the EVGA forums. And mind you in the US you have to pay shipping so it's not like it doesn't involve costs, man i would be so pissed if it happened to me. But sure they clearly always did good by their customers. But the claim of "role model of quality" simply is untruth.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> The best RMA is the one you never have to use, not the one that replaces your cards 5 times like happened to a lot of people on the EVGA forums.


No company is perfect. Mistakes and defects WILL happen. Always, no matter what is being made. What sets EVGA apart from the rest is their exceptional RMA process, which is the most painless I've ever dealt with, and I've dealt with everyone at one point or another. Par for the course when you run a PC shop.


Bomby569 said:


> But the claim of "role model of quality" simply is untruth.


I disagree, it is well earned. I would say EVGA is the golden standard everyone should model their returns and RMA's from.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> No company is perfect. Mistakes and defects WILL happen. Always, no matter what is being made. What sets EVGA apart from the rest is their exceptional RMA process, which is the most painless I've ever dealt with, and I've dealt with everyone at one point or another. Par for the course when you run a PC shop.



Come to the EU. Something breaks, i ship it back to the store that sold me, no costs to me either way, they have 30 days to fix it, or give me my money back, 2 years of peace of mind. I don't even care what is the brand, not my issue. All warranties are amazing here, i have problems with no one.  

The thing i want to avoid is having to stay weeks without my stuff, the less it breaks the best. All RMA's are equally good.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Come to the EU. Something breaks, i ship it back to the store that sold me, no costs to me either way, they have 30 days to fix it, or give me my money back, 2 years of peace of mind. I don't even care what is the brand, not my issue. All warranties are amazing here, i have problems with no one.


I'll grant you that, you have it good in that area of things. However, most of the world doesn't have that and there is much to be said about quality of build and manufacturer support.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> I'll grant you that, you have it good in that area of things. However, most of the world doesn't have that and there is much to be said about quality of build and manufacturer support.



Quality of build is like you said they all make some of the most shitty products one time or another, they all make crap if you go for the very low end. But sure if you need them it's best to have someone that cares like EVGA then someone that couldn't care less like.... most.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Quality of build is like you said they all make some of the most shitty products one time or another


No, that is not what I said. I said mistakes and defects happen. That's very different from "they all make some of the most shitty products one time or another". Please don't misunderstand me.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 21, 2022)

Hmm.....

Conversation with his Intel contact: 
"(Contact) : That's not true, we're in this for the long haul, we're one of the few companies that can sink hundreds of millions of dollars into something and lose money on it or take no margin for years while we establish ourselves ...
I was actually talking to EVGA about this...
_EVGA was asking me, some of its staff, about where's Intel right now with ARC, which I thought was a great sign because I hope there's interest there.. because if Intel sticks with this, it could be the start of another 20 year GPU partnership..."_


----------



## Wasteland (Sep 21, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> I think we just found out why EVGA ditched Nvidia.
> 
> 4080 at $899.  Their inventory of old 3080 3090 and 3090 Ti values are going to get shellacked.
> 
> ...



More like $1200 for the 4080 16 GB.  The $899 version looks to be what we would normally consider a 4070 or 4060 Ti, just with 80 branding attached.  The announced pricing scheme for 4000-series SKUs pretty clearly indicates that NVIDIA wants consumers to buy stockpiled Ampere cards for a long time to come.  It doesn't even look like Lovelace's performance will blow anyone away, given how heavily NVIDIA's leaning on apples-to-oranges DLSS comparisons in its marketing slides.  We'll see.

I'm not a huge fan of JayZ; like most youtubers, he puts out way too many videos with vague clickbait titles, but he seems to have gotten this prediction right.  The safer and more conventional call was to say that the 40-series launch would totally destroy the value of the higher end 30-series cards, and up until today I agreed with that logic.  Seems foolish in retrospect; never bet against NVIDIA raising prices.


----------



## cvaldes (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> Quality of build is like you said they all make some of the most shitty products one time or another, they all make crap if you go for the very low end. But sure if you need them it's best to have someone that cares like EVGA then someone that couldn't care less like.... most.



This isn't specific to AIB graphics cards manufacturers or just the PC hardware world. It applies to anyone who sells any product or service.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's how you react when things go wrong. Remember that these are all relationships whether it be a supplier-partner relationship (like NVIDIA-EVGA) or a merchant-customer relationship (which the EVGA situation also was). It's the same with interpersonal relationships.

No one is perfect so if you're going to have a relationship with someone, it might be worth it to select someone who cares about fixing problems.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 21, 2022)

Wasteland said:


> More like $1200 for the 4080 16 GB.  The $899 version looks to be what we would normally consider a 4070 or 4060 Ti, just with 80 branding attached.  The announced pricing scheme for 4000-series SKUs pretty clearly indicates that NVIDIA wants consumers to buy stockpiled Ampere cards for a long time to come.  It doesn't even look like Lovelace's performance will blow anyone away, given how heavily NVIDIA's leaning on apples-to-oranges DLSS comparisons in its marketing slides.  We'll see.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of JayZ; like most youtubers, he puts out way too many videos with vague clickbait titles, but he seems to have gotten this prediction right.  The safer and more conventional call was to say that the 40-series launch would totally destroy the value of the higher end 30-series cards, and up until today I agreed with that logic.  Seems foolish in retrospect; never bet against NVIDIA raising prices.



He got what right?  This guy?  

July 12th, and I quote :  "If you've been waiting for the right time to buy a graphics card, and you think that time is going to be when they launch 40 series, I've got news for you.  Don't wait, buy your graphics card TODAY."

If you followed his advice, you just got got handed your arse to the tune of $450+.

At least he went back and re-named his video.   However, a month after this, he started a rumor that the 4000 series wouldn't even launch for another year.  So he's not exactly learning, or necessarily being honest at all.

Otherwise he's just a typical click bait youtuber for the low-brow know nothings.  And most of the smaller tubers that called him out at the time got mobbed by the zombie masses that patronize this guy.  He's not alone though, pretty much every well known channel is the same.  This particular guy, is (or was) a shill for EVGA.  That's where he got his 'info'.




3090s and Tis for $1299 - $1700 from his video :




This is today on release :


----------



## chrcoluk (Sep 21, 2022)

There remains a possibility they are doing an amazon.

Earlier this year Amazon announced termination of their partnership with Visa and started paying people to stop using Visa on the Amazon store and a date where they would pull all support for paying with Visa cards. Unsurprisingly they came to a deal with Visa as Visa wouldnt want to lose the biggest store front in the world and the cancellation was pulled back a 180.

So I wouldnt be surprised if EVGA and Nvidia would come to a deal.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> He got what right?  This guy?
> 
> July 12th, and I quote :  "If you've been waiting for the right time to buy a graphics card, and you think that time is going to be when they launch 40 series, I've got news for you.  Don't wait, buy your graphics card TODAY."
> 
> ...


Oh, so you wish to continue the mud slinging and embarrassing yourself. Hey that's cool. It's most definitely amusing. But just an FYI there sparky, you are taking something someone was making a best guess on completely out context and trying to discredit them for no other reason than to win an argument. Do you know what that's called? I know what I call that...



chrcoluk said:


> There remains a possibility they are doing an amazon.
> 
> Earlier this year Amazon announced termination of their partnership with Visa and started paying people to stop using Visa on the Amazon store and a date where they would pull all support for paying with Visa cards. Unsurprisingly they came to a deal with Visa as Visa wouldnt want to lose the biggest store front in the world and the cancellation was pulled back a 180.
> 
> So I wouldnt be surprised if EVGA and Nvidia would come to a deal.


While that might seem logical, it's not likely in the case of EVGA.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 21, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Oh, so you wish to continue the mud slinging and embarrassing yourself. Hey that's cool. It's most definitely amusing. But just an FYI there sparky, you are taking something someone was making a best guess on completely out context and trying to discredit them for no other reason than to win an argument. Do you know what that's called? I know what I call that...



Actually dude, I wasn't responding to you.  And I used facts, I have more about that guy too. 

I know you don't want to hear them because you're not into facts, so just put a cork in it ok?

And you know what, your arrogant attitude and jaw flapping with zero info isn't worth my time.  Welcome to my ignore list punk.


----------



## erek (Sep 21, 2022)

Sorry if already posted, but


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> Actually dude, I wasn't responding to you.


News flash for you, this is PUBLIC forum. There is no such thing as a private conversion unless you take it to PM's.


RandallFlagg said:


> And I used my personal opinion, I have more about that guy too.


Fixed that for you. And we're all very sure you have more poo to fling about.


RandallFlagg said:


> I know you don't want to hear them because you're not into meritless opinions


Again fixed that for you.


RandallFlagg said:


> so just put a cork in it ok?


How original.


RandallFlagg said:


> And you know what, your arrogant attitude and jaw flapping with zero info isn't worth my time.


Oooo, name calling.


RandallFlagg said:


> Welcome to my ignore list punk.


Yeah, that'll work...



erek said:


> Sorry if already posted, but
> 
> View attachment 262450


I don't think anyone posted that yet.


----------



## hat (Sep 21, 2022)

I fail to see what's wrong with criticizing someone with... *checks* 3.73 million subscribers on Youtube, for misguiding his followers with some very misguided advice. Especially when that person apparently has ties to big players in the industry.  Where else have we heard such nonsense before? How about the "just buy it" article, or the infamous "the more you buy, the more you save" quote? Seems similar to me...


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

hat said:


> I fail to see what's wrong with criticizing someone with... *checks* 3.73 million subscribers on Youtube, for misguiding his followers with some very misguided advice.


There's a difference between criticism and mud-slinging. There's also a difference between opinions and facts.


hat said:


> Especially when that person apparently has ties to big players in the industry.


And who doesn't? ALL of the big techtubers have industry connections. How is this not understood? Hmm? But that doesn't mean they are obligated to kiss corporate asses. I could, *for an example only*, just as easily point out how much of a daft twat Steve Walton(Hardware Unboxed) is and how much of an elitist, out of touch, clueless AMD boot-licker he comes off as. I could do that with a reasonable level of credibility given everything that he has displayed for all to see both on his Youtube channel and over at TechSpot. I could lay into Linus at LTT the same way. However you don't see me doing that. Why? Because they positively contribute to the tech community in many ways.

Sooo... This thread is about EVGA parting ways with NVidia. It's not a JayzTwoCents bash fest...


----------



## hat (Sep 21, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> And who doesn't? ALL of the big techtubers have industry connections. How is this not understood? Hmm? But that doesn't mean they are obligated to kiss corporate asses. I could, *for an example only*, just as easily point out how much of a daft twat Steve Walton(Hardware Unboxed) is and how much of an elitist, out of touch, clueless AMD boot-licker he comes off as. I could do that with a reasonable level of credibility given everything that he has displayed for all to see both on his Youtube channel and over at TechSpot. I could lay into Linus at LTT the same way. However you don't see me doing that. Why? Because they positively contribute to the tech community in many ways.


That's sort of what I meant. In my eyes, all these big techtubers are after... wait for it... the money. It comes from their viewership, sure, but it also comes from, as you say, kissing corporate ass. One exception that I know of may be Gamer's Nexus, mostly because I vaguely remember some story about them getting cut off from someone because they didn't like their review, so they bought the products with their own money anyway to keep the reviews coming. Do note that I don't intend to bash Jay in particular, though I am not fond of the techtuber industry as a whole. I merely found your defense of Jay odd, given the comments that were being made by other users.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

hat said:


> That's sort of what I meant. In my eyes, all these big techtubers are after... wait for it... the money.


Well yeah, that's their job. But that doesn't mean they can't be objective and impartial, even if they have their favorite brands.


hat said:


> but it also comes from, as you say, kissing corporate ass.


That's where we disagree. Many techtubers and review websites have proven that they will not bow to corporate pressures.


hat said:


> One exception that I know of may be Gamer's Nexus, mostly because I vaguely remember some story about them getting cut off from someone because they didn't like their review


That has happened to many.


hat said:


> Do note that I don't intend to bash Jay in particular, though I am not fond of the techtuber industry as a whole.


That's fair.


hat said:


> I merely found your defense of Jay odd, given the comments that were being made by other users.


There is an unfair amount of Jay-bashing that happens here at TPU. I really don't understand why, I watch his content frequently and can't complain about his ethics or information. I'm tired of seeing it because he doesn't deserve it. So yes I'm going to come to his defense whenever I see the poo-flingers start their shenanigans.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> No, that is not what I said. I said mistakes and defects happen. That's very different from "they all make some of the most shitty products one time or another". Please don't misunderstand me.



The 1080 disaster was not a "mistake" or a "defect", was the result of a design choice. They also make cards with very small heatsinks for the card that it is, i know i got one of those. Is their aluminium premium or their plastic from premium sources?



lexluthermiester said:


> But just an FYI there sparky, you are taking something someone was making a best guess on completely out context and trying to discredit them for no other reason than to win an argument.



You can't be defending that idiot on this one. Not that. Everyone called him out, even his own lap dogs on twitter and the YT comments.
The guy that was been doing this for so long, made a "best guess" no one agreed with, come on. That's not a guess, that's driving on the wrong side of the highway idiocy.
And he didn't even ever hide their EVGA "appreciation". EVGA was always very good at cultivating the influencers.


----------



## Tomorrow (Sep 21, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> And you know what, your arrogant attitude and jaw flapping with zero info isn't worth my time.  Welcome to my ignore list punk.


He's been in my ignore list for a while. It seems like it was the right decision as im not the only one tired of arguing with a wall.


----------



## zlobby (Sep 21, 2022)

19 pages and counting. This is the type of thread mods just love to work!


----------



## Wirko (Sep 21, 2022)

zlobby said:


> 19 pages and counting. This is the type of thread mods just love to work!


It wouldn't survive nearly that long if the article mentioned _any _specific country or part of the world. Well it does mention "North American market" but that's apparently innocent enough.


----------



## dgianstefani (Sep 21, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> He got what right?  This guy?
> 
> July 12th, and I quote :  "If you've been waiting for the right time to buy a graphics card, and you think that time is going to be when they launch 40 series, I've got news for you.  Don't wait, buy your graphics card TODAY."
> 
> ...


JayZ has always been a shill who isn't even particularly good at his main channel's focus - watercooling.

He talks a lot of crap and is unexplainably popular for some reason.

There's people who defend him, and yes, he occasionally puts out accurate, well rounded content, but as a huge techtuber his responsibility is to not make false claims, and if he does, to immediately retract them with a public announcement/apology. AFAIK he does not do this, and has consistently gotten things wrong over the years without taking back what was said. OK, so he maybe changes his tune in future videos, but that's irrelevant.


----------



## TheDeeGee (Sep 21, 2022)

dgianstefani said:


> JayZ has always been a shill who isn't even particularly good at his main channel's focus - watercooling.
> 
> He talks a lot of crap and is unexplainably popular for some reason.
> 
> There's people who defend him, and yes, he occasionally puts out accurate, well rounded content, but as a huge techtuber his responsibility is to not make false claims, and if he does, to immediately retract them with a public announcement/apology. AFAIK he does not do this, and has consistently gotten things wrong over the years without taking back what was said. OK, so he maybe changes his tune in future videos, but that's irrelevant.


More like JayZ2BrainCells.


----------



## gyik (Sep 21, 2022)

Chuck Norris is still mining ETH with EVGA 4090s.


----------



## zlobby (Sep 21, 2022)

TheDeeGee said:


> More like JayZ2BrainCells.


Spot on!



gyik said:


> Chuck Norris is still mining ETH with EVGA 4090s.


Chuck Norris is the only one who can mine e-coins with pick axe and shovel!


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 21, 2022)

zlobby said:


> 19 pages and counting. This is the type of thread mods just love to work!


I am surprised, I wonder how much has been clipped for being of topic. BTW post #475 

I wish the best for Kingpin.


----------



## mechtech (Sep 21, 2022)




----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2022)

DeathtoGnomes said:


> I am surprised, I wonder how much has been clipped for being of topic. BTW post #475
> 
> I wish the best for Kingpin.


Has Kingpin made a comment or Tim I think his name is, their GPU vrm guru.

And not enough got cut there's pages of tuber talk, relevant, not.


----------



## loracle706 (Sep 21, 2022)

Me too i'm fed up with Nvidia, overpriced cards, some drivers near kills your gpu because of bugs, cards won't last as old days 4/5 years+, now their card dies in 2/3 years or right after ends of guarantee, because of bad components, specialy mid range cards, now they are pushing this lie of DLSS, that every one can do with just changing resolution in game settings, time to change to AMD, graphically its the same, proof that all Nvidia tech (RT/DLSS) etc, are just BULLSHIT.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 21, 2022)

TheoneandonlyMrK said:


> Has Kingpin made a comment or Tim I think his name is, their GPU vrm guru.
> 
> And not enough got cut there's pages of tuber talk, relevant, not.


I believe TiN left EVGA a few years back? A quick search doesn't tell me anything, but I believe I heard this a while ago. Kingpin's comment is pictured in a post on the previous page of this thread.


----------



## Shtb (Sep 21, 2022)

Killing eliminating another USA company (incomplete, obviously. Yet?).
No, it's not intentional, all coincidences are purely coincidental (Asian companies are rubbing their hands).


----------



## NoneRain (Sep 21, 2022)

They should go with Intel. Not joking.
Would love to see more competition on the segment.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

and this is why EVGA is in trouble, brand new



			https://www.pccomponentes.pt/evga-geforce-rtx-2060-ko-ultra-gaming-6gb-gddr6
		




			https://www.pccomponentes.pt/evga-geforce-rtx-2060-sc-overclocked-6gb-gddr6
		


they were counting on the endless crypto


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> and this is why EVGA is in trouble, brand new
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Three years post-launch, that's what they _should_ cost, crypto or no.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> and this is why EVGA is in trouble, brand new
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the laugh poirot, the leap of logic there is Astounding with a capital Ass.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Three years post-launch, that's what they _should_ cost, crypto or no.



You shouldn't have brand new 2060's to sell in September 2022, that's why they're losing money.


----------



## ARF (Sep 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Three years post-launch, that's what they _should_ cost, crypto or no.



4 years post launch. Jan 2019 to Jan 2023 will be exactly 4 years. 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022..

You can get a brand new Radeon RX 6600 for the same cash these days.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You shouldn't have brand new 2060's to sell in September 2022, that's why they're losing money.



Ok, I misinterpreted what you were saying.  That may not be the case, though.  If they're getting a good deal on the chips, it should be entirely possible to sell them at a price that makes a profit.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You shouldn't have brand new 2060's to sell in September 2022, that's why they're losing money.


Nvidia released a refresh version Dec 2021 sooo.


----------



## Bomby569 (Sep 21, 2022)

80-watt Hamster said:


> Ok, I misinterpreted what you were saying.  That may not be the case, though.  If they're getting a good deal on the chips, it should be entirely possible to sell them at a price that makes a profit.



If they were getting a good deal and making money they wouldn't be ending the business and asking for discounts from Nvidia, seems pretty obvious.
Bought all they could and couldn't to cash on crypto, and clearly have excess of crap.


----------



## 80-watt Hamster (Sep 21, 2022)

ARF said:


> 4 years post launch. Jan 2019 to Jan 2023 will be exactly 4 years. 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022..
> 
> You can get a brand new Radeon RX 6600 for the same cash these days.
> 
> View attachment 262507



You can.  And I would.  I made some bad assumptions about exchange rate above.  Though the cheaper 2060 from the links above is EUR254, and the least-expensive 6600 on the same site is EUR299.  Doesn't seem all that out of line.



Bomby569 said:


> If they were getting a good deal and making money they wouldn't be ending the business and asking for discounts from Nvidia, seems pretty obvious.
> Bought all they could and couldn't to cash on crypto, and clearly have excess of crap.



*shrug* It was simply a hypothetical.


----------



## HD64G (Sep 21, 2022)

EVGA were pushed out of this market with those cost policies and the last-minute price announcements from nVidia who needed more space in the market to sell their FE GPUs...


----------



## zlobby (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> and this is why EVGA is in trouble, brand new
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something is very, very fishy with EVGA dropping their main source of income...


----------



## HD64G (Sep 21, 2022)

zlobby said:


> Something is very, very fishy with EVGA dropping their main source of income...


Not being allowed to get more than 5% for every custom-made GPU sold is enough to aboandon any market me thinks. I would do the same personally.


----------



## ARF (Sep 21, 2022)

HD64G said:


> Not being allowed to get more than 5% for every custom-made GPU sold is enough to aboandon any market me thinks. I would do the same personally.



I would do something else. Optimise the head count and move the locations to cheap parts of either Europe or Africa.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> The 1080 disaster was not a "mistake" or a "defect", was the result of a design choice.


Which was clearly a mistake, one that was swiftly fixed.


Bomby569 said:


> They also make cards with very small heatsinks for the card that it is, i know i got one of those. Is their aluminium premium or their plastic from premium sources?


I'm not answering that except to say that you are welcome to your subjective opinions.


Bomby569 said:


> You can't be defending that idiot on this one.


That says more about you than anything else. Look in a mirror, take your time.


Bomby569 said:


> The guy that was been doing this for so long, made a "best guess" no one agreed with, come on. That's not a guess, that's driving on the wrong side of the highway idiocy.


You're missing the point. And YOU are calling Jay the idiot??



Tomorrow said:


> He's been in my ignore list for a while. It seems like it was the right decision as im not the only one tired of arguing with a wall.


You're welcome! Go boil your head peanut-boy.



zlobby said:


> 19 pages and counting. This is the type of thread mods just love to work!


No, not at all. Unless that was sarcasm... Dumpster fires like this thread do not thrill moderators. Trust me on that one.

@W1zzard
You remember what we were talking about?


dgianstefani said:


> JayZ has always been a shill who isn't even particularly good at his main channel's focus - watercooling.
> 
> He talks a lot of crap and is unexplainably popular for some reason.
> 
> There's people who defend him, and yes, he occasionally puts out accurate, well rounded content, but as a huge techtuber his responsibility is to not make false claims, and if he does, to immediately retract them with a public announcement/apology. AFAIK he does not do this, and has consistently gotten things wrong over the years without taking back what was said. OK, so he maybe changes his tune in future videos, but that's irrelevant.


This is TPU staff... Yeah...


----------



## W1zzard (Sep 21, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> This is TPU staff


Even my slaves are entitled to their own opinions


----------



## zlobby (Sep 21, 2022)

W1zzard said:


> Even my slaves are entitled to their own opinions


----------



## TheinsanegamerN (Sep 21, 2022)

"You know, Andrew (EVGA CEO) *wanted to wind down the business*,* and he's wanted to do that for a couple of years. *Andrew and EVGA were, are great partners and we're great partners, and I'm sad to see them leave the market. But, he's got other plans and he's been thinking about it for several years, so I guess that's about it. The market has a lot of great players and it will be served well after EVGA, but I'll always miss them, they were an important part of our history, Andrew is a great friend. I think that it was just time for him to go do something else.""

Well that's....rather damning, if you take leather jacket at his word. Even with a grain of salt, it would be lent some legitimacy given the holes in EVGA's story and reasoning. Nvidia may have played a big part in Andrew wanting to wind down EVGA, but it takes two. 


HD64G said:


> Not being allowed to get more than 5% for every custom-made GPU sold is enough to aboandon any market me thinks. I would do the same personally.


Then how do the likes of asus, gigabyte, and msi manage 7-10% margins? Furthermore, what about the scalping that went on for 2 years? Last time I checked, when the 3080 was selling for $1000 onEVGA's site that was more then 5% of the original profit margin.


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 21, 2022)

zlobby said:


>


EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY!! ..begin..


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 21, 2022)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> "....I think that it was just time for him to go do something else.""



I agree, its always a good time to do something else when you can't weather-in nutritious margins which help to facilitate no-sale or profit-less inventories. It seems Andrew did some basic maths... "ah, if im making 5% on top (or 10) but I end up getting stuck with a massive stock pile of expensive cards which puts me at loss, yep its a pretty good idea to shut shop". Is this Andrews fault or NVIDIA's (successful business reign - we gotto give them that) ruthlessly inquitable affiliate policy making. The way I see it, if EVGA or other AIB affiliates are free to purchase any quantity of GPUs at any given time then its the AIBs responsibility to tread safely in an unpredictable market/price crisis. If NVIDIA imposes fixed quantities as per contractual terms without a safety net, that's an easy one - NVIDIA should get the full 10-yard stick between the cheeks - simply pompously selfish IMO!

Anyway i'm just hurtling in speculation mode!


----------



## HD64G (Sep 21, 2022)

TheinsanegamerN said:


> "You know, Andrew (EVGA CEO) *wanted to wind down the business*,* and he's wanted to do that for a couple of years. *Andrew and EVGA were, are great partners and we're great partners, and I'm sad to see them leave the market. But, he's got other plans and he's been thinking about it for several years, so I guess that's about it. The market has a lot of great players and it will be served well after EVGA, but I'll always miss them, they were an important part of our history, Andrew is a great friend. I think that it was just time for him to go do something else.""
> 
> Well that's....rather damning, if you take leather jacket at his word. Even with a grain of salt, it would be lent some legitimacy given the holes in EVGA's story and reasoning. Nvidia may have played a big part in Andrew wanting to wind down EVGA, but it takes two.
> 
> Then how do the likes of asus, gigabyte, and msi manage 7-10% margins? Furthermore, what about the scalping that went on for 2 years? Last time I checked, when the 3080 was selling for $1000 onEVGA's site that was more then 5% of the original profit margin.


EVGA had the biggest share in US market because they had the best priced models that had above average quality. That tells me that they pushed their profit margins below the rest to keep that share high. They simply didn't want to keep doing that anymore since they sell PSUs and boards with much higher margins. Before they entered the PSU market they were forced to do so but weren't happy to collaborate with nVidia as the leaked discussions tell. My 5c.


----------



## TheoneandonlyMrK (Sep 21, 2022)

Like it's even questionable.
What some have not grasped is how many companies stepped away from Nvidia, Because of Nvidia before.


----------



## tussinman (Sep 21, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> and this is why EVGA is in trouble, brand new
> 
> they were counting on the endless crypto


Nvidia is actually the ones who pitched to Asus, MSI, and Evga that they would remanufacturer RTX 2060 boards if they were interested. 

It actually ended up working out for the consumer, the last 4-5 months in the US the brand new 2060s have actually been faster and cheaper than the 3050....... (what exactly is the issue ?) 


Bomby569 said:


> You shouldn't have brand new 2060's to sell in September 2022, that's why they're losing money.





Bomby569 said:


> Bought all they could and couldn't to cash on crypto, and clearly have excess of crap.


I think your confusing what actually happened. These 2060s aren't old stock that they are holding, there new production that NVidia actually pitched the idea to them. 

Nvidia pitched the idea because there the idiots that basically wanted these third party brands to sell what was essentially a 7 year old GTX 1070 (3050) for $300+ brand new......


----------



## Valantar (Sep 21, 2022)

tussinman said:


> Nvidia is actually the ones who pitched to Asus, MSI, and Evga that they would remanufacturer RTX 2060 boards if they were interested.
> 
> It actually ended up working out for the consumer, the last 4-5 months in the US the brand new 2060s have actually been faster and cheaper than the 3050....... (what exactly is the issue ?)
> 
> ...


More like Nvidia had a heap of spare RTX 2060/TU106 dice laying around (or got a sweet deal from TSMC to spin up a new production run of them on 12nm) and saw an opportunity to cash in on selling even more, at relatively high prices, of a die that long since had it's R&D costs amortized and was at this point almost pure profit. Still not a bad deal for consumers considering the alternatives, but I don't see any reason to present this as some "Nvidia steps in to save the day for consumers" type of scenario. If that was their desire, they could just have skipped the direct-to-miners sales and implemented an effective one GPU per customer queue scheme while ensuring cards sold at or near MSRP.


----------



## MarsM4N (Sep 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> they were counting on the endless crypto



Yep, *the party is over.* The music stopped playing.  But they where drowning in revenue the last years, thanks to the crypto boom.
I am not shedding a tear. Let's dance on their grave & celebrate the market is back to normal. Thanks to recession there will soon be a price war battling for customers.










						Nvidia’s Next Major Wave Of AI Revenues
					

It is a good thing for Nvidia that most of the hyperscalers in the world – or at least the ones that matter – also have substantial public cloud




					www.nextplatform.com
				










Bryan has also a very _"balanced"_ take on it.


----------



## tussinman (Sep 22, 2022)

Valantar said:


> More like Nvidia had a heap of spare RTX 2060/TU106 dice laying around (or got a sweet deal from TSMC to spin up a new production run of them on 12nm) and saw an opportunity to cash in on selling even more, at relatively high prices, of a die that long since had it's R&D costs amortized and was at this point almost pure profit.


Exactly my point, he was making it seem like there inventory was so bad that they where literally trying to sell cards from 2019


Valantar said:


> but I don't see any reason to present this as some "Nvidia steps in to save the day for consumers" type of scenario.


No that's not what I was saying. The user I was originally quoted was basically trying to insinuate "of course Evga failed, there inventory management is so bad that they still have RTX 2060s that they haven't sold" and I was point out no those are actually 2022 shipments and that there higher-up (Nvidia) basically forced them to sell them if they wanted any hope of making profit on the sub $300 market


----------



## RandallFlagg (Sep 22, 2022)

This is just so dumb.  It's like, what is that hanging off your GPU?  Oh, that's the motherboard..


----------



## Kissamies (Sep 22, 2022)

They should move to Radeon side like XFX did. EVGA Radeons would be hella cool.


----------



## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 22, 2022)

Bomby569 said:


> You shouldn't have brand new 2060's to sell in September 2022, that's why they're losing money.


Actually you should, those were cards prolly set aside for RMA replacements, and now being sold outright since they dont need them anymore.



tussinman said:


> (what exactly is the issue ?)


somebody needs something to complain about or bash someone else for the hell of it. why else?


----------



## lexluthermiester (Sep 22, 2022)

Lenne said:


> They should move to Radeon side like XFX did. EVGA Radeons would be hella cool.


Or do both Radeon AND Intel's Arc. That would be excellent!


----------



## wheresmycar (Sep 22, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> This is just so dumb.  It's like, what is that hanging off your GPU?  Oh, that's the motherboard..
> 
> View attachment 262538



lol, RTX 5090 first pictured here by his eminence RandallFlag


----------



## MentalAcetylide (Sep 23, 2022)

RandallFlagg said:


> This is just so dumb.  It's like, what is that hanging off your GPU?  Oh, that's the motherboard..
> 
> View attachment 262538


Yes, if you want a 4090(not sure about the sizes of the 4080s or below), you need to make sure the motherboard & hardware configuration supports it. I have an MSI TRX40 motherboard with a 3090 Kingpin + Lenovo RTX A6000. I'm pretty sure if I wanted to upgrade to a 4090, I would also have to remove the RTX A6000 just to make enough room for a single 4090. The size of these 4000-series cards is just stupid. Sometimes you have to wonder if they're not deliberately doing this nonsense just to piss people off. At least they dealt with the power spike issue(or so they said). I'll be skipping this generation completely, that's for sure. I would imagine by the time we have the 5000 series, I'll be needing a true workstation motherboard with 12 slots mounted in a case the size of a small refrigerator if I want to have two of them installed on it. Nvlink may be dead, but I can still have 2 or more cards work on the same render to finish it quicker.


----------



## claes (Sep 23, 2022)

One real advantage with these latest generations evga had was the size of their cards, even if their coolers weren’t as effective as larger ones. I follow every case release I can but have never paid attention to GPU limits until these last two generations. Idk what cases they’ll fit in (apparently define without HDD bays), but they certainly won’t fit in my FT02.

Double post, just watched the GN AIB preview, and just checked the define 7 compact and it barely fits the ASUS TUF 4090…. What are GPU manufacturers doing? What are nvidia’s alleged design limits when we’re already at 3+ slots and >12”/320mm and the ASUS Noctua design demonstrated you could do a lot better just by using better fans? SFF had shown it’s been a worthy design change for years now… why hasn’t it been implemented?


----------



## Fasola (Sep 24, 2022)

GN followup:


----------



## AleXXX666 (Sep 24, 2022)

OneMoar said:


> do you not understand how taxes work ?


yes lol. but same as with Apple products, there is huge margin put, not taxes


----------



## Valantar (Sep 24, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> yes lol. but same as with Apple products, there is huge margin put, not taxes


You seem to have a very, very simplistic view of the value chain of design, production, distribution and sales, and how taxes and fees play into this.


----------



## SOAREVERSOR (Sep 24, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> yes lol. but same as with Apple products, there is huge margin put, not taxes



I'm going to assume you aren't using "margin put" as the investing term which is what it means and you're just saying apple has high margins.  They don't.  Most PC and electronics makes don't either.   There's two ways they stay valid.  The first is landing tons of corporate contracts where the real money is in support contracts on systems most people don't see.   So a company like Dell or HP or lenovo doesn't stay floating off it's hardware, that's stupidly small margins.  What happens is if you are a Dell shop for example you eat support contracts with them on the laptops, techs, service, certfications, and support.

All of this works this way.  The thing about apple is it's a phone company, but it's cleaning house not via the phone but the app store.  On the corporate side they aren't making money off the macs but they make a killing off support and software and other items.   Gaming works this is way as well for everyone not Nintendo.  Microsoft and Sony sell at a loss for a long time, though eventually they make a profit so little what matters is that it's not a loss.   The truth is the clean up on the games they sell as they take a portion.

Hardware beyond selling chips is tiny margins.  Even that is also only viable at scale.


----------



## AleXXX666 (Sep 24, 2022)

SOAREVERSOR said:


> I'm going to assume you aren't using "margin put" as the investing term which is what it means and you're just saying apple has high margins.  They don't.  Most PC and electronics makes don't either.   There's two ways they stay valid.  The first is landing tons of corporate contracts where the real money is in support contracts on systems most people don't see.   So a company like Dell or HP or lenovo doesn't stay floating off it's hardware, that's stupidly small margins.  What happens is if you are a Dell shop for example you eat support contracts with them on the laptops, techs, service, certfications, and support.
> 
> All of this works this way.  The thing about apple is it's a phone company, but it's cleaning house not via the phone but the app store.  On the corporate side they aren't making money off the macs but they make a killing off support and software and other items.   Gaming works this is way as well for everyone not Nintendo.  Microsoft and Sony sell at a loss for a long time, though eventually they make a profit so little what matters is that it's not a loss.   The truth is the clean up on the games they sell as they take a portion.
> 
> Hardware beyond selling chips is tiny margins.  Even that is also only viable at scale.


i meant retailers at most, not the manufacturers.


----------



## Valantar (Sep 24, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> i meant retailers at most, not the manufacturers.


Having worked in electronics retail for about a decade total, I can tell you for a fact that Apple products are some of the lowest margin products you'll find in any electronics store (though game consoles are typically worse). Apple also tends to control distributor margins to a higher extent than other brands.


----------



## AleXXX666 (Sep 24, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Having worked in electronics retail for about a decade total, I can tell you for a fact that Apple products are some of the lowest margin products you'll find in any electronics store (though game consoles are typically worse). Apple also tends to control distributor margins to a higher extent than other brands.


still, $999 in US magically turns into like EUR1299 in EU lmfao


----------



## Valantar (Sep 25, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> still, $999 in US magically turns into like EUR1299 in EU lmfao


... Yes, because most EU countries have 19-25% VAT (us MSRPs are without any form of tax), and the US is the largest single market for electronics (outside of China), meaning the economies of scale of a single language single market are much more present than anywhere in the EU. This really isn't complicated, and requires absolutely zero conspiratorial thinking to make add up. This is literally what I meant when I said it seems you have a very simplistic view of these systems.


----------



## AleXXX666 (Sep 25, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... Yes, because most EU countries have 19-25% VAT (us MSRPs are without any form of tax), and the US is the largest single market for electronics (outside of China), meaning the economies of scale of a single language single market are much more present than anywhere in the EU. This really isn't complicated, and requires absolutely zero conspiratorial thinking to make add up. This is literally what I meant when I said it seems you have a very simplistic view of these systems.


i don't understand posting prices before taxes. it's like telling you salary in gross you will be like wow then you see what you get to your hands and understand your great illusions were BS lol


----------



## cvaldes (Sep 25, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> i don't understand posting prices before taxes. it's like telling you salary in gross you will be like wow then you see what you get to your hands and understand your great illusions were BS lol



Tax rates vary depending on jurisdiction.

Using a US example, California has a statewide sales tax rate of 7.25% but individual counties (sometimes cities) often have their own sales tax so the rate in San Francisco (City and County), South San Francisco (San Mateo County), and Cupertino (Santa Clara County) might all be different (in fact, they are).

In the same way, EU member nations have their own tax rates.

A company like NVIDIA doesn't know where Reader X lives and where he/she will be buying Product A. And tax rates change.

Same thing with income taxes. Whatever exemptions and deductions you claim are probably different than everyone else's. Married people have different tax rates than single people. Some states have their own income tax (like California) while others do not (like neighboring Oregon).

I agree with Valantar that you have a very simplistic view of these systems.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 25, 2022)

AleXXX666 said:


> i don't understand posting prices before taxes.


Because sales taxes in the US are handled on a region by region basis. Some places in the US don't have sales tax at all. It would be INSANELY difficult to try posting prices including sales tax here. Does that make sense?


AleXXX666 said:


> it's like telling you salary in gross you will be like wow then you see what you get to your hands and understand your great illusions were BS lol


It's not illusion, it's practicality. Everyone who lives in a region were sales taxes are collected, knows or has easy access to what those tax rates are and can easily calculate or estimate. For example if the price before taxes is $499 and there is a 6% tax the calculation would go something like 499 X 1.06 = 528.94. It's not magic or a conspiracy and it's not difficult for a person to do.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 25, 2022)

cvaldes said:


> Using a US example, California has a statewide sales tax rate of 7.25% but individual counties (sometimes cities) often have their own sales tax so the rate in San Francisco (City and County), South San Francisco (San Mateo County), and Cupertino (Santa Clara County) might all be different (in fact, they are).


15 feet seprate me and a 6% city tax in addition to State and/or Federal. People lie about their addresses just to avoid those taxes. 

But how did this thread become about taxes? Not everyone is grown up (read: OLD FART) enough to know how taxes work, I still get confused...


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## Valantar (Sep 25, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Because sales taxes in the US are handled on a region by region basis. Some places in the US don't have sales tax at all. It would be INSANELY difficult to try posting prices including sales tax here. Does that make sense?
> 
> It's not illusion, it's practicality. Everyone who lives in a region were sales taxes are collected, knows or has easy access to what those tax rates are and can easily calculate or estimate. For example if the price before taxes is $499 and there is a 6% tax the calculation would go something like 499 X 1.06 = 528.94. It's not magic or a conspiracy and it's not difficult for a person to do.


There is still something to be said about this being a rather harebrained system though - especially as sales taxes are just about as fair and evenly distributed a tax as you get, matching taxation to consumption. But with the US both historically and currently being the nexus of all kinds of strange libertarian experiments I guess a federal sales tax would probably be seen as overreach by a lot of people.


DeathtoGnomes said:


> 15 feet seprate me and a 6% city tax in addition to State and/or Federal. People lie about their addresses just to avoid those taxes.
> 
> But how did this thread become about taxes? Not everyone is grown up (read: OLD FART) enough to know how taxes work, I still get confused...


Not knowing exactly how they work is one thing, another is being told "US MSRPs don't have taxes included, so they're lower than EU prices which include VAT" and then refusing to even engage with that idea when trying to figure out why prices are higher elsewhere.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 25, 2022)

Valantar said:


> There is still something to be said about this being a rather harebrained system though


Not at all. In the US, there is no taxation without representation. It comes down to communities determining their own taxation rates. Taxes are adjusted up and down from time to time as is needed for civic resource necessities.

VAT taxes are more simple but end up being very high for people in areas that have less economic advantage.


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## Valantar (Sep 25, 2022)

lexluthermiester said:


> Not at all. In the US, there is no taxation without representation. It comes down to communities determining their own taxation rates. Taxes are adjusted up and down from time to time as is needed for civic resource necessities.


... every US citizen is represented by the federal government (unless they refuse to acknowledge it, in which case they should really give up their citizenship and emigrate if they are that principled), so that doesn't even add up as an argument.


lexluthermiester said:


> VAT taxes are more simple but end up being very high for people in areas that have less economic advantage.


This is also vastly simplistic, as a flat, large-scale (e.g. federal or state-wide) VAT allows for redistribution of wealth from wealthier, higher consumption areas to poorer, lower consumption ones. After all, consumer spending on VAT-applicable goods and services (not rent or mortgages, in other words) is _vastly_ higher in higher income areas than in poor areas, which means the tax burden of VAT is quite evenly distributed as taxes go.

Your argument also has a crucial blind spot: that it inherently carries with it the idea that wealth belongs within strict geographical borders, an idea that inherently favors the wealthy in their ever-more-restrictive enclaves. Of course, the US has been the poster child for this for decades already, with vast differences in basic services like schools, libraries, roads, utilities, parks, and a whole lot more. This is a fundamentally antidemocratic structure, as it allows the wealthy minority, who have the means to more easily relocate, gather in places where they can then enact local laws to protect their wealth from the "threat" of a small portion of it being fairly redistributed to those less fortunate.


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## lexluthermiester (Sep 25, 2022)

Valantar said:


> ... every US citizen is represented by the federal government (unless they refuse to acknowledge it, in which case they should really give up their citizenship and emigrate if they are that principled), so that doesn't even add up as an argument.
> 
> This is also vastly simplistic, as a flat, large-scale (e.g. federal or state-wide) VAT allows for redistribution of wealth from wealthier, higher consumption areas to poorer, lower consumption ones. After all, consumer spending on VAT-applicable goods and services (not rent or mortgages, in other words) is _vastly_ higher in higher income areas than in poor areas, which means the tax burden of VAT is quite evenly distributed as taxes go.
> 
> Your argument also has a crucial blind spot: that it inherently carries with it the idea that wealth belongs within strict geographical borders, an idea that inherently favors the wealthy in their ever-more-restrictive enclaves. Of course, the US has been the poster child for this for decades already, with vast differences in basic services like schools, libraries, roads, utilities, parks, and a whole lot more. This is a fundamentally antidemocratic structure, as it allows the wealthy minority, who have the means to more easily relocate, gather in places where they can then enact local laws to protect their wealth from the "threat" of a small portion of it being fairly redistributed to those less fortunate.


I'm SOOO not getting into this debate, it's off topic anyway. Let it go.


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## Dr. Dro (Sep 25, 2022)

The key omission is the distributor's cut. AMD and NVIDIA generally only operate directly in the NA (US/Canada) and Western Europe (UK, Germany and France), other countries have importers/middlemen that take a cut of their own.


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## DeathtoGnomes (Sep 25, 2022)

Valantar said:


> Not knowing exactly how they work is one thing, another is being told "US MSRPs don't have taxes included, so they're lower than EU prices which include VAT" and then refusing to even engage with that idea when trying to figure out why prices are higher elsewhere.


When people realize prices vary all over the world will self-destruct trying to figure the why.


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## simlife (Sep 27, 2022)

"Graphics cards made up over three-quarters of EVGA's revenue"

they like any med to large company was overcharging over msrp by a lot evga is a bad company overall dont let anyone say otherwise... and this would not exist if the crypto market wast still high


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## Forza.Milan (Sep 27, 2022)

really love reading all these comments, backwards


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## Valantar (Sep 27, 2022)

simlife said:


> "Graphics cards made up over three-quarters of EVGA's revenue"


... yes, GPUs are a large market and generally cost quite a lot - much more than PSUs (EVGA's other core market) - and sell in quite high quantities. Three quarters of revenue, yet PSUs represent nearly as much total profit? That says something about profit marigns here.


simlife said:


> they like any med to large company was overcharging over msrp by a lot evga is a bad company overall dont let anyone say otherwise... and this would not exist if the crypto market wast still high


According to data provided to and checked by about as trustworthy journalists as this industry has covering it, their profit marigns for GPUs for AIB partners have been minimal at best, especially at the high end. Most GPU profits during the mining boom went to chipmakers, distributors and retailers. If EVGA had been raking in money and having an easy time through the shortage, it's rather unlikely that this would have happened.


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## Chomiq (Sep 27, 2022)

Dr. Dro said:


> The key omission is the distributor's cut. AMD and NVIDIA generally only operate directly in the NA (US/Canada) and Western Europe (UK, Germany and France), other countries have importers/middlemen that take a cut of their own.


Their presence in EU was almost non-existent for the past 2 years, seeing how majority of GPUs went to the US. You were better off ordering something from 3rd party sellers than EU EVGA store.


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## Kissamies (Oct 5, 2022)

Chomiq said:


> Their presence in EU was almost non-existent for the past 2 years, seeing how majority of GPUs went to the US. You were better off ordering something from 3rd party sellers than EU EVGA store.


Hm, feels like that their cards were just as common as any other manufacturers' cards here in Finland.


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