# Will any of these reduce ping/make my connection more stable?



## HabibiLan (Mar 20, 2020)

Hello! This post mainly for those who tried the stuff below or those who are experts in network stuff, I had 3 questions in regards to improving my connection, eliminating ping spikes, possibly reducing ping?

My router does not support QOS and also does not support OpenWRT or DD-WRT. Should I get a router that helps me with these settings? Is QOS a big one in terms of gaming? Currently I only have port forwarding set up for games and usually get 30 ping in most games so I maybe being too picky here.

Should I make any adjustments to the "Advanced" tab found in Ethernet settings (this one: 



http://imgur.com/bI3Pc3D

)?

Should I turn off UPnP if I am using portforwarding?


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Mar 20, 2020)

It's not going to make a difference. You're within margin of error for the average connection.

The only thing you can do is either upgrade to a faster Internet package such as fiber optic or move house to be closer to an exchange so your data doesn't have to travel half the city before being sent to where it needs to go


----------



## Khonjel (Mar 20, 2020)

If it ain't broke don’t fix it.

Just avoid WiFi and hardwire your PC to the router.

But yes, ping reducers work, sometimes. When your ISP's route to the destination server is garbage. Like say you’re in Britain and the game server's in Germany. Usually you'll get least ping when data travels less. Say, Britain > Netherlands > Germany. But for some reason the connection is now Britain > France > Switzerland > Austria > Germany. Ping reducers will try to go the shortest path too. They're kinda like VPN. As for VPN, when my ISP's routes acted up I've had great success with Speedify.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 20, 2020)

Run Speedtest and see what you get. Sadly, most ISP contract promise speeds "up to" some bit rate. But still you should get at least close to what you are paying for. 

You mention "ping" but didn't tell us what you are getting. It is important to understand that is typically determined by your ISP's connection to the Internet backbone, and then all the hops to the destination and back. In other words, nothing you can do - assuming your local network is working properly and yours appears to be working fine. And for the record, spikes are normal. So open a command prompt as admin and enter ping www.speedtest.net and ping www.techpowerup.com and see what you get. From here in Eastern Nebraska, I get the following. You will not get the same but should be fairly close. And hopefully with 0 packets lost. 

C:\WINDOWS\system32>ping www.speedtest.net​​Pinging zd.map.fastly.net [151.101.194.219] with 32 bytes of data:​Reply from 151.101.194.219: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=59​Reply from 151.101.194.219: bytes=32 time=35ms TTL=59​Reply from 151.101.194.219: bytes=32 time=25ms TTL=59​Reply from 151.101.194.219: bytes=32 time=21ms TTL=59​​Ping statistics for 151.101.194.219:​Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),​Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:​Minimum = 16ms, Maximum = 35ms, Average = 24ms​​C:\WINDOWS\system32>ping www.techpowerup.com​​Pinging www.techpowerup.com [168.235.67.115] with 32 bytes of data:​Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=53​Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=40ms TTL=53​Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=47ms TTL=53​Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=48ms TTL=53​​Ping statistics for 168.235.67.115:​Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),​Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:​Minimum = 40ms, Maximum = 49ms, Average = 46ms​
I note on the Ethernet Status window, it says for Speed: 1.0Gbps. That's your local Ethernet network between the computer and the router. So that is right. 

Not that it matters but I just checked 3 systems here and all have that Energy Efficient Ethernet setting set to "Enabled".


----------



## TheLostSwede (Mar 20, 2020)

QoS is only helpful when someone else is using the connection at the same time as you. However, it depends on what kind of QoS settings the router have. Most only have an on/off option.
Asus seems to have a bit more advanced options in their routers, so you can prioritise gaming over say VoIP calls.

Your network ping is in the 1ms or less range, assuming we're talking a wired network. Try opening a command prompt and ping your router IP and you'll see. If you don't know your routers IP address, type ipconfig in the command prompt and it should be the default gateway.

How old is your router? It's possible that it has a very old and slow processor that could introduce some slight lag spikes at times, so that might be a reason to update it. More importantly, does it still receive security updates, as that's the one reason I would seriously considering an upgrade. There are a lot of routers out there with a lot of security holes that are unfortunately getting hacked quite regularly. However, even in this case, make sure you get a router that has third party support from someone like Merlin (some Asus models) or Voxel (some Netgear models), as then you retain the regular UI, yet get a lot of security updates and fixes.

Outside of this, the rest is up to your ISP, unfortunately.


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 20, 2020)

HabibiLan said:


> usually get 30 ping in most games so I maybe being too picky here.



30 ms ping is considered perfect in online gaming. You're unlikely to get better than 30 ms using any method whatsoever. The data still has to travel to the server and back, and speed of light through copper/fiber lines is finite. 

It ain't broke. Don't fix it.


----------



## HabibiLan (Mar 20, 2020)

Bill_Bright said:


> Run Speedtest and see what you get. Sadly, most ISP contract promise speeds "up to" some bit rate. But still you should get at least close to what you are paying for.
> 
> You mention "ping" but didn't tell us what you are getting. It is important to understand that is typically determined by your ISP's connection to the Internet backbone, and then all the hops to the destination and back. In other words, nothing you can do - assuming your local network is working properly and yours appears to be working fine. And for the record, spikes are normal. So open a command prompt as admin and enter ping www.speedtest.net and ping www.techpowerup.com and see what you get. From here in Eastern Nebraska, I get the following. You will not get the same but should be fairly close. And hopefully with 0 packets lost.
> 
> ...



For www.speedtest.net I get same results as you but for www.techpowerup.com I get:

Pinging www.techpowerup.com [168.235.67.115] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=149ms TTL=51
Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=156ms TTL=51
Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=122ms TTL=51
Reply from 168.235.67.115: bytes=32 time=92ms TTL=51

Ping statistics for 168.235.67.115:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 92ms, Maximum = 156ms, Average = 129ms

This is kinda high no?



TheLostSwede said:


> QoS is only helpful when someone else is using the connection at the same time as you. However, it depends on what kind of QoS settings the router have. Most only have an on/off option.
> Asus seems to have a bit more advanced options in their routers, so you can prioritise gaming over say VoIP calls.
> 
> Your network ping is in the 1ms or less range, assuming we're talking a wired network. Try opening a command prompt and ping your router IP and you'll see. If you don't know your routers IP address, type ipconfig in the command prompt and it should be the default gateway.
> ...




Network ping is 0MS as you said.

Router is Netgear Orbi RBK40


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 20, 2020)

HabibiLan said:


> This is kinda high no?



Depends on where you are, compared to where Techpowerup is hosted. If you're on the other side of the world, it's fine.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 20, 2020)

Yeah, your TPU ping times are a little long but Speedtest.net links are okay, your network is okay. Also, you have 0 packets lost so that is good too.


----------



## John Naylor (Mar 20, 2020)

The only on line game I play has servers in Cyprus, Im in NY. ... ping sits around 10 and it's been that way for the 15 years I have been playing.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Mar 20, 2020)

Papahyooie said:


> 30 ms ping is considered perfect in online gaming. You're unlikely to get better than 30 ms using any method whatsoever. The data still has to travel to the server and back, and speed of light through copper/fiber lines is finite.
> 
> It ain't broke. Don't fix it.


Sorry, but that's plain wrong. A lot of people I play games against, who have a fibre connection at least and live in the same country as the game servers have pings of 1-10ms in game.
I have been playing Apex Legends here using GeForce Now (since I'm currently not at home) and I get 20-25ms ping through that and that's from one country to another, although not that far away.
30ms is clearly acceptable and it's what I often have at home, but it's hardly great. I'm also using internet via cable connection, so it's a bit slower than fibre, as it's going over more infrastructure locally, which slows things down.


----------



## Frick (Mar 20, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but that's plain wrong. A lot of people I play games against, who have a fibre connection at least and live in the same country as the game servers have pings of 1-10ms in game.
> I have been playing Apex Legends here using GeForce Now (since I'm currently not at home) and I get 20-25ms ping through that and that's from one country to another, although not that far away.
> 30ms is clearly acceptable and it's what I often have at home, but it's hardly great. I'm also using internet via cable connection, so it's a bit slower than fibre, as it's going over more infrastructure locally, which slows things down.



I genuinly believe in this case there is no difference between accepteble or great. 30ms is _fine,_ for all purposes. ALL purposes. 100ms is definitely noticable, but a stable 30 is totally within the bounds of practically (as in, noticable by a human) indistinguishable from 10ms.



Papahyooie said:


> Depends on where you are, compared to where Techpowerup is hosted. If you're on the other side of the world, it's fine.



It would actually be amazing. I once tracerouted through uzbekistan and the latency _really_ tanked there.


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 20, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but that's plain wrong. A lot of people I play games against, who have a fibre connection at least and live in the same country as the game servers have pings of 1-10ms in game.
> I have been playing Apex Legends here using GeForce Now (since I'm currently not at home) and I get 20-25ms ping through that and that's from one country to another, although not that far away.
> 30ms is clearly acceptable and it's what I often have at home, but it's hardly great. I'm also using internet via cable connection, so it's a bit slower than fibre, as it's going over more infrastructure locally, which slows things down.



If you're right beside the server, sure. You're going to have better ping. 30ms is basically how long it takes for a ping to physically make it from one side of the USA to the other and back with no problems. So for practical purposes, 30 ms is considered perfect. If you're getting better than that, bully for you.
Fiber does not appreciably improve ping times, as the time it takes electrons to travel through copper vs light through fiber is appreciably negligible at the distances it must travel. You may gain 1-2ms.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Mar 20, 2020)

Frick said:


> I genuinly believe in this case there is no difference between accepteble or great. 30ms is _fine,_ for all purposes. ALL purposes. 100ms is definitely noticable, but a stable 30 is totally within the bounds of practically (as in, noticable by a human) indistinguishable from 10ms.


I wasn't saying it wasn't fine, my beef was with the fact that the person who I replied to, said "_You're unlikely to get better than 30 ms using any method whatsoever._"
That's simply not true, as a lot of people have lower ping than that.
What is noticeable or not, is a separate discussion.



Papahyooie said:


> If you're right beside the server, sure. You're going to have better ping. 30ms is basically how long it takes for a ping to physically make it from one side of the USA to the other and back with no problems. So for practical purposes, 30 ms is considered perfect. If you're getting better than that, bully for you.
> Fiber does not appreciably improve ping times, as the time it takes electrons to travel through copper vs light through fiber is appreciably negligible at the distances it must travel. You may gain 1-2ms.


Not everyone lives in a massive country like the US though. I get better than 30ms ping over a cellular connection right now.

I think you need to gain a deeper understanding of the underlying technology here, as between a fibre connection and cable modem, which was my comparison, there's a huge difference. Between fibre and Ethernet, no, not a huge difference. The issue is in general not what's in your home, but the parts between your home and the ISP and then the ISP to where you want to connect. All bits we have zero control over, unless you happen to own an ISP.


----------



## vega22 (Mar 20, 2020)

If you share your connection then a router with QoS is needed imo if you don't want lag spikes when gaming.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 21, 2020)

Papahyooie said:


> 30 ms ping is considered perfect in online gaming.
> 30ms is basically how long it takes for a ping to physically make it from one side of the USA to the other and back with no problems.


What says that? As far as I know, nothing says either of those things. They are just arbitrary numbers pulled out of... where? Got links? I can't find any.

Latency is dependent on too many variables to put a number on it. I just pinged www.bbc.com in London and averaged 22ms - that's almost 4300 miles from here near Omaha. To www.cabelas.com in Sidney, Nebraska, just 400 miles away, it averaged 23ms. 1/10th the distance took 1ms longer. Why?

Latency is dependent on the number of hops, amount of traffic, transmission media, packet size and more. And many of those variables can change second to second - or millisecond to millisecond.

IMO, perfect would be 0 latency (0ms). But of course, that's impossible. As for fiber vs copper - sure fiber is faster, but more importantly, fiber can carry a LOT more data in the same amount of time. That said, you are not going to find fiber endpoint to endpoint.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 21, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Sorry, but that's plain wrong. A lot of people I play games against, who have a fibre connection at least and live in the same country as the game servers have pings of 1-10ms in game.
> I have been playing Apex Legends here using GeForce Now (since I'm currently not at home) and I get 20-25ms ping through that and that's from one country to another, although not that far away.
> 30ms is clearly acceptable and it's what I often have at home, but it's hardly great. I'm also using internet via cable connection, so it's a bit slower than fibre, as it's going over more infrastructure locally, which slows things down.



Signal attenuation, connections are nowadays either fttp or fttn


----------



## TheLostSwede (Mar 21, 2020)

eidairaman1 said:


> Signal attenuation, connections are nowadays either fttp or fttn


I still have a cable modem back home... Obviously at some point, it's fibre, but not everyone has that to their home. A lot of people are also on things like VDSL/VDSL2 and they won't have as good ping as someone that's more directly connected to the network via fibre or Ethernet. Every device between you and your ISP means latency.


----------



## Bill_Bright (Mar 21, 2020)

> Every device between you and your ISP means latency.


That's true but there are many more points than just that. Do a trace route on your ISP and no doubt your will encounter many hops - just to your ISP. Then the distant end will have many to their ISP. And there will be many hops in between. 

Every hop adds latency.


----------



## Vayra86 (Mar 21, 2020)

Papahyooie said:


> If you're right beside the server, sure. You're going to have better ping. 30ms is basically how long it takes for a ping to physically make it from one side of the USA to the other and back with no problems. So for practical purposes, 30 ms is considered perfect. If you're getting better than that, bully for you.
> Fiber does not appreciably improve ping times, as the time it takes electrons to travel through copper vs light through fiber is appreciably negligible at the distances it must travel. You may gain 1-2ms.



For your understanding. In the Netherlands a ping time of 11-15ms to EU servers is pretty normal. To the US it can easily be 4x that number, in the optimal situation.

You're right though, it really does depend on where the OP lives and yes, overall I would say do not worry about 30ms if you have that and no packet loss and no issues otherwise.


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 23, 2020)

This thread is the epitome of pedantic.

30 ms is roughly how long it takes for a ping to go from one end of the US to the other, and back, as if through a single copper wire (in a hypothetical world where we could actually do that without repeaters, etc) spanned the country. It's based on the speed of the signal through the material, no other factors. It's the benchmark for what would be "perfect" under perfect circumstances. Of course there are other factors. I never said otherwise. Of course there are smaller countries. I never said otherwise. In fact, I already said if you're closer to the server (no matter which country you're from) you can absolutely get better ping times.

You people would argue with a stump. Bottom line, 30 ms is fine. I never said you couldn't get better. I did say the the *OP* is unlikely to get a better ping using any method whatsoever (on his current connection.) 

As for me having an understanding of underlying technology, if your fiber connection is getting better pings than a copper connection, it has nothing to do with the fact that it's fiber. It's the fact that you're using an entirely different ISP with entirely different (ostensibly better) topology and equipment. For PURE signal propagation, copper is actually faster than fiber.

Side note, if you ping BBC from the US, you're likely pinging New York or San Francisco. Not London.


----------



## TheLostSwede (Mar 25, 2020)

Dude, it's not pedantic, people live in different places and have different experiences to you, so you can't claim to be the one that's right in this case.
Yes, 30ms is not bad, but it's far from impossible to get much, much lower ping. Case in point, see below. Just got a new setup up and running where I am.
Not sure how you get 30ms across the US continent though.
Light still travels faster than electrical signals, as far as physics work, but ok...







Also, are you referring to yourself as a stump? Seems a tad odd, but ok...


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> I still have a cable modem back home... Obviously at some point, it's fibre, but not everyone has that to their home. A lot of people are also on things like VDSL/VDSL2 and they won't have as good ping as someone that's more directly connected to the network via fibre or Ethernet. Every device between you and your ISP means latency.



I used to do Uverse installs, i know all about this


----------



## TheLostSwede (Mar 25, 2020)

eidairaman1 said:


> I used to do Uverse installs, i know all about this


Unfortunately my previous ISP was bought out by a cable company, so I had fibre to the basement and then got downgraded to a cable modem setup...   
Pings went up and uploads are meh, despite it being DOCSIS 3.0.


----------



## eidairaman1 (Mar 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Unfortunately my previous ISP was bought out by a cable company, so I had fibre to the basement and then got downgraded to a cable modem setup...
> Pings went up and uploads are meh, despite it being DOCSIS 3.0.



Probably the drop and the tap/splitters


----------



## Grog6 (Mar 25, 2020)

Let's see: LA is ~3k miles from NY.

186282.4 mi/s gives us a time to NY from LA at 16.10mS as the crow flies. (Crows are known to fly at  speol, when hungry)

That assumes there's no processing time in routers or delay of any kind.

If it's in a cable, the velocity factor of most cables is about 60%. That means the speol in the cable is 60% of the vacuum value, or 111,769.44, and that means we're at 26.84ms. (Your cable may vary.)

That doesn't count the meanders of the cables, or the fact that at that distance, you're probably going to be part of a satellite link.

That sattelite link adds 23k miles x2  to the equation.

)Ever notice the delay on CNN when they're talking to someone not in their studio?
That's the delay to the Clarke Belt and back.  )

That's ~1.5 seconds with the repeaters on both ends; I've measured it personally WBW. ( at least the ones that belonged to Ma Bell in the 80's, lol)
(Phone phreaking sometimes relied on speed)

People on here brag about their 100+fps systems; if you're playing online, that is just magnifying the disconnect from the server.
The server isn't updating that fast, so the rest is bogus.

What your playing is an average of what the server thinks is happening; there's a lot of interpolation.

That is why I hate playing games online these days; by the time they calculate your position, your hit percentage based on lootboxes, and all the other drivel, from 15 ping you're at 300+ ping locally, and there's not shit you can do about it.

Other than play old games that don't suck.

We run *Q2: Ground Zero* servers on my LAN at 3mS ping, there's no hit mods, no BS, it's all frag.

See why I'm disappointed with all the new games?

Anyone camping popins is going to get a railgun to the back of the head, lol.


----------



## xvi (Mar 25, 2020)

I would give PingPlotter a try. It's basically just traceroute/pathping with a visual graph and history. You'll want to look to see where that latency starts. Take note of the resolved names of the hops too. You may notice a large spike through, for example, Seattle to Florida like can be seen in the screenshot below.
If you can keep it running, especially on a second monitor or something while you're gaming, it'd give you some validation on if your pings are consistent too.





Note the large jump in latency between seattel3.level3.net and tampa1.level3.net. This is primarily due to the distance. Even if you had a fiber cable stretched tight straight from Seattle to Orlando, you'd still have to wait 27.3ms for the light to get there and back. This is a pretty extreme example (although it gets far worse between continents), but it can hopefully give you a decent idea as to where that latency starts and what may be the culprit.

Edit: Oh! You may also want to look into disabling the Nagle algorithm. I believe Leatrix Latency Fix does this somewhat automatically, but I prefer to make changes myself. I think Leatrix also makes other changes, although some of those might also be good.


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 25, 2020)

TheLostSwede said:


> Dude, it's not pedantic, people live in different places and have different experiences to you, so you can't claim to be the one that's right in this case.
> Yes, 30ms is not bad, but it's far from impossible to get much, much lower ping. Case in point, see below. Just got a new setup up and running where I am.
> Not sure how you get 30ms across the US continent though.
> Light still travels faster than electrical signals, as far as physics work, but ok...
> ...



You didn't read what I wrote there, did you?

Side note, light travels much slower through a fiber optic cable than it does through a vacuum. Do the math. Electrons travel faster through a copper cable than light does through fiber.


----------



## Grog6 (Mar 25, 2020)

No, the velocity factor of an optical fiber is about 69%, about the same as wire.

Some might be faster, some slower, but on average they're the same.

Velocity factor of a fiber is based on the index of refraction, which depends on the speed of light in the glass they made it out of, and it varies considerably; that's how it works.

Velocity factor on cable depends on the insulation (dielectric), type, and design of the cable.


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 25, 2020)

Grog6 said:


> No, the velocity factor of an optical fiber is about 69%, about the same as wire.
> 
> Some might be faster, some slower, but on average they're the same.
> 
> ...



Velocity factor of RG6 is on average 0.95. 95% speol in vacuum. Much faster than fiber.
(That being said, on the distances required, this translates to only a few milliseconds difference even going around the entire world, so as I said originally, appreciably negligible for most purposes.)

Edit: let me rephrase that for the pedantic who want to argue.... the velocity factor of the average 18 gauge COPPER WIRE used in RG6 is on average 0.95. An actual cable will have a lower velocity factor because of cable construction and insulators. Anywhere from .60 to .90 depending on the dielectrics used, etc. So I guess @Grog6 is correct if talking about actual cables. My argument was again, coming from a "perfect" benchmark scenario.


----------



## Grog6 (Mar 25, 2020)

Speed of electricity - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The best case is two conductors in vacuum.

I've done this a long time, lol.

The real delays are the processing gear on both ends of the cable; until fairly recently, light detection and conversion equipment was much slower.

Samtec makes a set of cable connections/conversion chips that allow you to swap back and forth between the two, and there's not a large difference in speed, maybe 2%.






						Micro Flyover On-Board Optical Engine, FireFly™ | Samtec
					

Future-proof system with interchangeability of FireFly™ copper and optical using the same micro connector system for up to 28 Gbps per lane.



					www.samtec.com


----------



## Papahyooie (Mar 25, 2020)

Grog6 said:


> Speed of electricity - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 I'm not disagreeing with you. From your own link:
"In everyday electrical and electronic devices, the signals travel as electromagnetic waves typically with the 50%–99% "

Jives close enough with what I said.


----------



## phanbuey (Apr 24, 2020)

I started using haste recently to eliminate lag in league of legends and it's worked great for me. 

My ping was 54 ms before but it would lag and packet drop noticeably in game.  Now even at 52 ms it's perfectly fine, feels much better, and no lags.


----------



## xrobwx71 (Apr 25, 2020)

I am using a XR500 Netgear Nighthawk router which uses the DUMA Os, which uses a technology similar to haste in which it routes me to the fastest route avaliable based on the map settings in the router. It works well.  





						Features - Netduma.com
					






					www.dumaos.com


----------

