# Violate the laws of physics:Windows Vista DRM



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

> A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
> ===================================================
> 
> Peter Gutmann, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
> ...



posted this here because it seemed like the most aproprete place, it effects hardware dirrectly as you will see if you read it.

please read the whole thing before you post uninformed comments!!!

thanks, and hi, my buddy told me this was a good place to hang out for tech heads


----------



## Darknova (Jan 11, 2007)

I have read this before, and past it on to everyone I know warning them about Vista. It's disgusting, why the hell should Hollywood control what we can and can't use?
Plus if we buy a legit copy of a "protected" movie, but don't have the proper hardware we don't get what we paid for...yeah, that sounds right....


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

yeah, thats exectly what bothers me, that and the fact that hollywood is in charge of vista security(they gotta signoff on any security software for vista) is that not insain?

im so glad i have windows 2003 sever, a buddy(one who sent me here) let me try his trial disk and after 20min (after install) i was hooked, its like xp without the buggs or bloat, its just plane faster!!!!

i have vista on a test box here, its ungoddly slow, slower then vectorlinux on my buddys p233mmx lappy(208mb ram 5.2gb hdd) and with enlightnment desktop it looks better   the gui isnt hardware accelerated at all yet is faster and looks better....whats that about?


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

> So if you design a new security system, you can't get it supported in Windows
> Vista until well-known computer security experts like MGM, 20th Century-Fox,
> and Disney give you the go-ahead (this gives a whole new meaning to the term
> "Mickey-Mouse security"). It's absolutely astonishing to find paragraphs like
> ...



mickey mouse security!!!!


----------



## Casheti (Jan 11, 2007)

I TOLD YOU ALL VISTA WAS SH1T!!! MWUAHahahahahhaha


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

Casheti read it, you will see even more reasions vista is sh!t


----------



## Casheti (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm not a big fan of reading. Can somebody summarise??? Oh wait I can do it...

VISTA = SH1TE 

XP FOREVER (or until I get Mac OSX)


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

xp, blah, 2003 forever!!!!!, and mac......fook that, if i have to i will use desktop bsd or vector linux or mepis or any one of the other linux distros my buddy has burned ready to mess with, neither of us "like" linux but we both hate vista lol


----------



## Pinchy (Jan 11, 2007)

stay with XP...not OSX


----------



## Casheti (Jan 11, 2007)

I love Macs. They are beasts.


----------



## Casheti (Jan 11, 2007)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1809118256240983268&q=Intel+Mac

It's *Beautiful*

Makes me want to ACTUALLY USE a Windows computer for once.


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

hehe, i will stick with my amd+2003, it trumps mac + intel


----------



## Casheti (Jan 11, 2007)

Mac FTW


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 11, 2007)

note my siggy!!!!


----------



## Casheti (Jan 11, 2007)

lol


----------



## Pinchy (Jan 11, 2007)

The only time ive ever used a mac, was when our scool had a lab of G3's. I hate them, cus they are slow, expensive, and were relatively hard to use (prolly cus im used to windows)

All apple products i see always lead to frustration for people that have them (that i know). Screens breaking easily, itunes screwing up, play screwing up....hence, no macs for me 

EDIT - BUT i must admit, macs are good for ONE thing....providing some form of competition so MS doesnt totally monopolise the market


----------



## Jonnycat (Jan 12, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> ?
> im so glad i have windows 2003 sever, a buddy(one who sent me here) let me try his trial disk and after 20min (after install) i was hooked, its like xp without the buggs or bloat, its just plane faster!!!!


I recently changed from Win2k to WinXP, and after pulling out my hair for the last month, I'm almost ready to go back to Win2k.  

Wim2k3, huh?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## Wile E (Jan 12, 2007)

Pinchy said:


> The only time ive ever used a mac, was when our scool had a lab of G3's. I hate them, cus they are slow, expensive, and were relatively hard to use (prolly cus im used to windows)
> 
> All apple products i see always lead to frustration for people that have them (that i know). Screens breaking easily, itunes screwing up, play screwing up....hence, no macs for me
> 
> EDIT - BUT i must admit, macs are good for ONE thing....providing some form of competition so MS doesnt totally monopolise the market


Try a new Mac and say those things. lol They're a far cry from the days of G3s.


----------



## Pinchy (Jan 12, 2007)

actually, come to think of it, ive tried a G4 once...soo many problems, altho i hear the G5's are a lot better...


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 12, 2007)

Jonnycat said:


> I recently changed from Win2k to WinXP, and after pulling out my hair for the last month, I'm almost ready to go back to Win2k.
> 
> Wim2k3, huh?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.



thats why went back to 2k then moved to 2k3 when it was avalable!!!!

you may still beable to find the trial disk offer on ms page, duno now that vista lumes over our heads like a week old dead fish stinking up the place!!!!


----------



## Jonnycat (Jan 12, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> thats why went back to 2k then moved to 2k3 when it was avalable!!!!
> 
> you may still beable to find the trial disk offer on ms page, duno now that vista lumes over our heads like a week old dead fish stinking up the place!!!!



k thx.  My main concern will be compatability; will everything (like games) work as well as in XP/2k?


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 12, 2007)

yeah, just follow the guide to set it up as a workstation(google windows 2003 workstation guide)  there have been 2 games i had "problems" with and neither where the os's fault, doom3 you need a modifyed msi file to install(or just copy the content of the disk to ur system, its easyer)  the msi is readly avalable with support for 2k3 as well as 2k and 98(i think 98 was added to the same one rofl)

2k3 is just an evolutionary step on nt5, 2k is 5.0, xp is 5.1, 2k3 is 5.2, the main diffrance between xp and 2k3 is that 2k3 when releced was acctualy finnished and not in a beta state, it took the extra couple years from the relece of xp because XP WASNT STABLE ENOUGHT OR RELIABLE ENOUGHT to work as a server os, infact the server side at the time of xp relece was horribly unstable, like windows me but worse!!!!


----------



## Jonnycat (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks for the info, spoon.  I'll look into this more closely.


----------



## niko084 (Jan 12, 2007)

Its Microsoft... what else needs to be said?

LINUX FTW!

Funny, my Dad is still using Windows 2000 Server for his web servers......
And Windows 2000 Pro for his personal computer P4 3.2 Extreme.....

Now he is redoing everything under Fedora 5/6 and Debian....
Although he owns 25 licenses to XP Pro.... And has a free license for Vista sitting...


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 12, 2007)

i use 2k and 2k3 period, my shop got a good deal on 2k3 web licences from a company that went out of buisness, we also got their web servers, we converted and sold them as workstations, linus has its place, and its not on the common mans desktop, at least not till they get it to the point where its as easy to use and manage as windows, even the most "noob friendly" distros still have their querks where u need to use the old command line


vista is not about the common man its about ms catering to hollywood AND catering to their own greed, with vista they will beable to force those who buy online content to choose to use MS services to do so(kinda like iTuenes for video and the like) because they sure as hell wont support anybody elses protections, so if you have content thats considered"preimum" by nature it but isnt ms it probbly will be degraded so baddly u will have to buy a sepret player and screen that are capable of playing your content without problems IF you are stupid enough to install vista that is 

as to servers, 2k3 web server is VERY easy to use and VERY reliable, its 2k but easyer and more robust!!!!!(2k config can be a real PITA for some server uses)


----------



## Scavar (Jan 15, 2007)

Well for all that, it is an interesting read. I've been using Windows Xp Home/Pro for years, with very few problems. I've just as many problems on many of the incarnations of Linux/unix that I have tried, and Vista has run much better for me in its most recent beta state, minus some drivers, then XP has.....I didn't even know there was a 2k3, or if I did it slipped my mind.


----------



## TangoFish (Jan 16, 2007)

> Vista's content protection requires that devices (hardware and software
> drivers) set so-called "tilt bits" if they detect anything unusual. For
> example if there are unusual voltage fluctuations, maybe some jitter on bus
> signals, a slightly funny return code from a function call, a device register
> ...



I wonder what effect this will have on overclocking, it sounds like any sort of volt mod or even voltage change could trigger "tilt bits" and shut you down.

I don't think this is Microsoft being dictated too by hollywood, more like Microsofts long term goal is to own hollywood by controlling its outlet. Bit like Apple and I-tunes have the music industry.
It just goes to confirm that Microsoft really are a bunch of TOSSERS......



_________________________________________________


----------



## TangoFish (Jan 16, 2007)

Casheti said:


> I'm not a big fan of reading. Can somebody summarise??? Oh wait I can do it...
> 
> VISTA = SH1TE
> 
> XP FOREVER (or until I get Mac OSX)



Unfortunately it does not matter what OS you are using this will effect us all. Microsoft are passing the responsibility on to the manufacturers, by threatening to revoke licenses, and they  will pass on the cost to us. Meaning next years nice new graphics card will cost a shit load extra just to stop you copying a shitty hollywood piece of cack. Plus IF i did decide to use vista's anything bought this year wont play said piece of shit either.
AAARGH RANT.......
They really are bastards tho.



_____________________________


----------



## TXcharger (Jan 16, 2007)

they should make a gaming OS...Patent Pending by CHARGER!!  lol


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 16, 2007)

Scavar said:


> Well for all that, it is an interesting read. I've been using Windows Xp Home/Pro for years, with very few problems. I've just as many problems on many of the incarnations of Linux/unix that I have tried, and Vista has run much better for me in its most recent beta state, minus some drivers, then XP has.....I didn't even know there was a 2k3, or if I did it slipped my mind.



xp works great for some, or they just dont see/care about its buggs.

2k or 2k3 on the other hand at least in my exp as a tech dont have as many querks/buggs, if you stick a wireless card in and install the driver IT WORKS!!!!

honestly, try 2k or 2k3 compared to xp you will see a huge diffrance


----------



## niko084 (Jan 16, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> xp works great for some, or they just dont see/care about its buggs.
> 
> 2k or 2k3 on the other hand at least in my exp as a tech dont have as many querks/buggs, if you stick a wireless card in and install the driver IT WORKS!!!!
> 
> honestly, try 2k or 2k3 compared to xp you will see a huge diffrance



2K and 2K3 are far better as servers and really most workstation apps. The only reason I run XP Pro, is because it supports 3d and such a little better some games run better and faster under xp.


----------



## niko084 (Jan 16, 2007)

TangoFish said:


> Unfortunately it does not matter what OS you are using this will effect us all. Microsoft are passing the responsibility on to the manufacturers, by threatening to revoke licenses, and they  will pass on the cost to us. Meaning next years nice new graphics card will cost a shit load extra just to stop you copying a shitty hollywood piece of cack. Plus IF i did decide to use vista's anything bought this year wont play said piece of shit either.
> AAARGH RANT.......
> They really are bastards tho.
> 
> ...



Ditto its a bunch of bullshit. Thankfully for us, the underground world will always have something to show anything microsoft and hollywood can ever come up with up. Now granted if people didn't copy in the first place maybe we wouldn't have this problem. But, they don't hurt the people who copy anyways, they hurt the people who pay for it... Which is really annoying!

And personally and I'm sure most of you can agree with this about that copyright Hollywood got pushed through on Mpeg? SERIOUSLY? They did not create Mpeg, so sue me!

Beh, enough of my rant, I have 3d acceleration starting to work under Fedora 6. I expect to be running everything including my games under linux within the next 3-4 years, and by then XP still wont be totally outdated and useless for me, and linux will be coming around stronger.

It's a great day when I walk into Best Buy around here and see a new computer with a Linux OS option for $100 less.


----------



## Frick (Jan 16, 2007)

Pinchy said:


> actually, come to think of it, ive tried a G4 once...soo many problems, altho i hear the G5's are a lot better...



As said, try a new one.. Buy a Mini and feel the Sexy Beast devour your Brains.  

@2K: I actually have Win2K, but for some reason it fails in 4 months. It NEVER fails. 3 or 4 months after a fresh install, Tr00 install, tons of BSODS appear that I've never seen before and they NEVER appear in XP.


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 16, 2007)

niko084 said:


> 2K and 2K3 are far better as servers and really most workstation apps. The only reason I run XP Pro, is because it supports 3d and such a little better some games run better and faster under xp.



i wish i could find the ppl that started the stupid rummor/FUD that 2k isnt good for gaming and slap them, XP quite litterly is just 2k with bloat added, a couple new gui fetures, oh and they put the app compat tool on the rclick menu(its on the cd for you to install with 2k) 

really thats all they changed, 2k can/does game as well as or better then xp, dont belive me, try it, same drivers are used by 2k/xp/2k3, the main diffrance is that 2k has less excess SH!T preinstalled, as such it acctualy runs games faster.

the bs about it not being good for games comes from 2 sorces from what i have seen, 1. people who couldnt play their dos and win95 games on 2k without having to acctualy READ(ms gives you an app conpat tool, its on the cd with 2k/xp/2k3, you just gotta read to find it) lazy gits
2. people who couldnt find decent video card drivers for 2k, this would be anybody with a rage128 or early radeon(or older cards) because back then ati had crap driver support and was BAD BAD BAD at making 2k drivers, my tnt2 ultra ran a bit faster under 2k then it did under 98(bout 5fps)  

and 2k3, takes me about 30sec to convert it to  a fully functional game beast, just enable gfx acceleration, run dxdiag, enable ddraw, and bam faster then xp, better memory managment, oh yeah and LESS BLOAT!!!!!


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 16, 2007)

Frick said:


> As said, try a new one.. Buy a Mini and feel the Sexy Beast devour your Brains.
> 
> @2K: I actually have Win2K, but for some reason it fails in 4 months. It NEVER fails. 3 or 4 months after a fresh install, Tr00 install, tons of BSODS appear that I've never seen before and they NEVER appear in XP.



honestly after 12years of being a prof tech i can say "you must be doing something wrong" because i got a desktop behind me running a 5+year old install of 2000 pro thats outlived 6-7 motherboards, never been reinstalled, the hdd is on a promise controler card so i can change boards without reinstalling(ide controlers are the 1 thing that makes it hard to move NT os's from chipset to chipset.)

its been used for web stuff(firewalled and antispyware/addware guarded, still running an old copy of f-prot to) 

its never failed me, and its been thru my mother, aunt, uncle, father, neibor and a few friends using it(loaner comp for when i have to fix friends and fam systems and they cant live without an email/wordprosessing box) 

its best up time was close to a year, then the power went out and it reset 

my advice, slipstream sp5(google for a link softopeia and a few other sites have it) user made sp(fully slipstreamable)  install then install a firewall(old ver of sygate pro is agood choice) and f-prot antivirus(low resorce good protection)   and see how things go.

i went thru 3-5 installs a year on xp, but that was due to "critical hotfixes" that messed things up, finnly gave up and went back to 2k, then 2k3 came out and BLISS  i only reinstall when i feel like i need a cleaning, or get a new hdd


----------



## niko084 (Jan 16, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> i wish i could find the ppl that started the stupid rummor/FUD that 2k isnt good for gaming and slap them, XP quite litterly is just 2k with bloat added, a couple new gui fetures, oh and they put the app compat tool on the rclick menu(its on the cd for you to install with 2k)
> 
> really thats all they changed, 2k can/does game as well as or better then xp, dont belive me, try it, same drivers are used by 2k/xp/2k3, the main diffrance is that 2k has less excess SH!T preinstalled, as such it acctualy runs games faster.
> 
> ...



Well I can tell you one thing for dead sure, same system, Athlon 1.3ghz with 648mb ram and a 64mb Nvidia under 2k Pro trying to run Medal Of Honor, I got horrible frame rates at low settings practically unplayable, under XP, I could turn them up and have it very nice and playable. Also my little brothers old P3 1ghz Titanium or something can't remember the stupid name, did the same with multiple games he had 1gig of ram and 128mb pci ati 9250 video card.

I can't say for 2k3, I had that running on a server at a place I was a tech for, for about a week until I put linux on it.


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 18, 2007)

duno what you did wrog if you got that kinda fps unless it was forgetting to install latest dx version or drivers, 2k uses the same drivers as xp, plays the same games, the perf issues i have seen are normaly related to 2 things,  
forgetting to update drivers and software
p4 with hyper threding(2k dosnt like fake SMP)


----------



## niko084 (Jan 18, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> duno what you did wrog if you got that kinda fps unless it was forgetting to install latest dx version or drivers, 2k uses the same drivers as xp, plays the same games, the perf issues i have seen are normaly related to 2 things,
> forgetting to update drivers and software
> p4 with hyper threding(2k dosnt like fake SMP)



It was all done.. 

Like I said the system was a Athlon 1.3ghz with a Nvidia MX440 and turned into a 9200se. Same issues, all updated...

Don't know... Maybe I was missing something stupid... Either way I have no problems with any games now, except nwn2 I think my video card is cutting me off.... Ohh well 1950 on its way as soon as I get the money


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 18, 2007)

if u changed video cards and didnt wipe the drivers with drivercleaner that could explain ur problems, i swaped a buddys 8500le for a x800xt pe and the perf was HORRID, took me a week to realise it was because i needed to wipe the drivers in safe mode then reinstall them, bam 10x the fps in games!!!!!

i know how frustrating it can be trying to figuar out what ur missing, i just spend 4 days havng issues turned out it was an hdd not liking the converter i had used with it, swaped a highpoint converter with my abit one and bam fixed,  little things that kick ya in the arse!!!!


----------



## niko084 (Jan 18, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> if u changed video cards and didnt wipe the drivers with drivercleaner that could explain ur problems, i swaped a buddys 8500le for a x800xt pe and the perf was HORRID, took me a week to realise it was because i needed to wipe the drivers in safe mode then reinstall them, bam 10x the fps in games!!!!!
> 
> i know how frustrating it can be trying to figuar out what ur missing, i just spend 4 days havng issues turned out it was an hdd not liking the converter i had used with it, swaped a highpoint converter with my abit one and bam fixed,  little things that kick ya in the arse!!!!



Nah I had fresh installs with both video cards, I kept trying to go back to 2k because xp doesn't really like a 1.3 that much...


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 18, 2007)

try 2003, i got it on a 266 p2 with 384ram and it runs circles around xp on my fathers p4 2gz laptop!!!!


----------



## niko084 (Jan 18, 2007)

SpoonMuffin said:


> try 2003, i got it on a 266 p2 with 384ram and it runs circles around xp on my fathers p4 2gz laptop!!!!



Might do that, I can always steal my dad's copy, he isn't using it.


----------



## Casheti (Jan 18, 2007)

So basically you're all saying 2003 is better than XP?


----------



## SpoonMuffin (Jan 19, 2007)

yes it is, 2k3 is what xp SHOULD HAVE BEEN!!!!!

its xp after they worked the buggs out, look back in time at older NT os's

nt3.x, each version came as workstation and server at the same time
nt4,   had workstation and server off the bat.
nt5/2k workstation(pro) and server came out at the same time.
then came xp, it wasnt stable enought to be used as a server, so they just rushed xp out and tryed to patch out alot of the problems, as they also finnished 2003, the diffrance in perf off the bat is quite impressive, even with all the pretty gui stuff turned on its faster then xp in performance mode, more responcive, and FAR more stable.

xp couldnt cut it as a server it wasnt ready for that use, hence they brought out 2003 years later.

the ONLY problems you will runinto with 2003 is that norton/mcafee and the like wont install their desktop versions on it, but nod32 or f-prot will!!!!!  

i personaly prefer f-prot and nod32 to norton/mcafee/exct because they both do not cause system slowdowns and dont use alot of resorces, also f-prot has a free dos ver thats still getting viri sigs(same as their newer version) thats excelent for cleaning off infected systems from command prompt. 

try 2003 web vs xp and you will feel the diffrance, manual conversion to workstation takes around 15min the first time, this is because you gotta find the setting described in the conversion guides, using sala's optimizer took it takes about 2min tops!!!!

i should post my own custom conversion guide, if anybodys intrested i may copy some stuff from other guides and add my own methods to it, make an easyer conversion guide!!!!

heres the old neowin guide, its in AbiWord format free open sorce word prosessor(good and small) gziped format(opens dirrectly by abi) a nice feture cuts file size down alot.

remove the .zip extention its just there so i would beable to upload the file.

its an easyer guide to conversion then the one at MSFN

they are both good guides but slower then how i do it.

i will also attack a usefull tool if it will let me 

the tool and info about it can be found here http://www.kood.org/win-2003-optimize-tool-v145-info/
but the sites kinda slow at times!!!!!

this tool takes the time to convert down to SECONDS, very usefull


----------

