# Worth to upgrade to schiit stack with ROG Mobo?



## paymok (May 30, 2018)

I need some opinion to see is it worth to invest into schiit magni 3 + modi 2 uber with my current rig setup in exchange some more gain some more audio quality.

Here are my rigg setup at the moment
- Corsair airflow 540 airflow case
- Asus ROG MAXIMUS VII RANGER
- Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250ohm

I remember one of the reason I bought this mobo is because ASUS said the SupremeFX on-board amp is capable in driving headphone > 150 ohm, I didn't pay a lot of attention on this, 
I was just thinking is this board able to push the headphone volume loud enough. 
So far, I just wire the mobo audio to my case front panel in, and plugin my headphone to the front panel 3.5mm jack. I used this setup for years and ok with that.

Until recently I am curious on some audiophile stuff, and might want to start with some entry level, schiit magni 3 + modi 2 uber seems to be a good starting point, 
But the question is compare to the gaming on-board AMP, Will I experience a bigger difference after switch to schiit stack?

I googled a little bit, seems others think as long as the mobo can drive the headphone with enough volume, and if the mobo onboard amp is good enough, 
It is not necessary to invest into dac+headphone amp.

so is it worth upgrade to a external dac+headphone setup, or the sound quality actually will not make a huge difference compare to gaming mobo onboard amp?

Here are some links for reference:

http://www.schiit.com/products/magni-3
https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/dt-990-pro.html
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_VII_RANGER/
https://www.corsair.com/uk/en/Categories/Products/Cases/Carbide-Series™-Air-540-High-Airflow-ATX-Cube-Case/p/CC-9011030-WW


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## eidairaman1 (May 30, 2018)

That is such a horrible name for a product.


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## paymok (May 30, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> That is such a horrible name for a product.


Schiit? lol ya thats a horrible name, but their quality is not sxxt at all


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## eidairaman1 (May 30, 2018)

I say try without the dac first then if need be get it later.


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## R-T-B (May 30, 2018)

eidairaman1 said:


> That is such a horrible name for a product.



If you understand how their company markets themselves, it's actually completely in line with pretty much everything they do.

They make excellent schiit for bottom dollar (bottom dollar considering what it is, it isn't "cheap").


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## WhiteNoise (May 30, 2018)

Schiit make solid amps and dacs. I have been to their facility (was invited with some other local Headfi members) and was able to check out their processes and see some new not yet released product. This was a couple of years ago. I own a passive switch of theirs but though tempted to buy one of their amps I have not needed to as of yet.

I prefer a stand alone DAC and AMP vs the PC. I would say go for it.


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## Vya Domus (May 30, 2018)

paymok said:


> or the sound quality actually will not make a huge difference compare to gaming mobo onboard amp?



If you use the output from the motherboard directly (not from the front of the case ), yeah it wont make much much of a difference.


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## R-T-B (May 30, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> If you use the output from the motherboard directly (not from the front of the case ), yeah it wont make much much of a difference.



It does make a difference, but I would caution thee.  Unless you are driving some seriously high impedance headphones or something, you are entering the dangerous "last 5% of performance" territory of audiophiles.  It has diminishing returns for every bit you gain, and exponentially larger price tags as you climb.

Even as an audiophile myself, I will confess:  It's 90% noticing something that should not be noticed, and trying to make it better.


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## Vya Domus (May 30, 2018)

R-T-B said:


> It has diminishing returns for every bit you gain, and exponentially larger price tags as you climb.



Exactly.


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## R-T-B (May 30, 2018)

Vya Domus said:


> Exactly.



I was basically agreeing with you, just with added experience from someone who already wasted too much money... lol

Honestly, the speakers/headphones are WAY more important than the audio stack...  but if you get something high impedance or something, then you get on that same slippery slope, because then a better audio stack will have more impact and you are thus tempted to muck around there.

This topic is dangerous to the wallet.


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## Totally (May 30, 2018)

paymok said:


> I need some opinion to see is it worth to invest into schiit magni 3 + modi 2 uber with my current rig setup in exchange some more gain some more audio quality.
> 
> Here are my rigg setup at the moment
> - Corsair airflow 540 airflow case
> ...



It all boils down to whether if you like or are satisfied with what the DT 990s sound @150ohms vs what they sound like @250ohms. It's a personal thing not really cut and dry. There are several times I've thought I wouldn't mind living with a card with an output impedance lower than the impedance of the headphones, later on finding out the headphone sound completely different at the different levels where the sound becomes more clear and has more. To describe it would be like only being able to see only black and white then being able to see in color. There were also instances where upping the impedance doesn't do a damn thing except make the headphones more loud. So really you should be looking for someone who owns those headphones and find out if they sound any different at 150 or 250, if no difference, see if they're loud enough at 150.


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## nomdeplume (May 30, 2018)

1.  Unless your source is a high quality recording that had great attention payed to it a good dac/amp will predominantly amplify the poor aspects.
2.  Until you break through a price/quality barrier the results are very similar in effective reproduction.  Despite products sounding dissimilar.
3.  The higher end products they make are really quite good.  There are better options if you're shopping the lower tier or two.
4.  Ask yourself if the DAC/Amp is the weakest link in your audio playback.  Whatever you decide it is only pursue options that fix this need without introducing larger problems elsewhere.


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## paymok (May 31, 2018)

Totally said:


> It all boils down to whether if you like or are satisfied with what the DT 990s sound @150ohms vs what they sound like @250ohms. It's a personal thing not really cut and dry. There are several times I've thought I wouldn't mind living with a card with an output impedance lower than the impedance of the headphones, later on finding out the headphone sound completely different at the different levels where the sound becomes more clear and has more. To describe it would be like only being able to see only black and white then being able to see in color. There were also instances where upping the impedance doesn't do a damn thing except make the headphones more loud. So really you should be looking for someone who owns those headphones and find out if they sound any different at 150 or 250, if no difference, see if they're loud enough at 150.



Thank you for the reply from everyone! 
The difficulty for me is to judge is the motherboard good enough to drive out the last 10% performance ? Will I be able to drive a few more % from an external stack ?

A more doubtful question, is this motherboard actually able to push out 90% performance ? Or actually it can only push 80% of performance?  

I'm not a audiophile but I think even a motherboard can output enough power to push a high immpednce headphone volume high enough, it doesn't mean it transform the digital to analog signal better. That's why i wonder if externalize all these signal processing to a external dac+amp, will it make a difference?


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## Totally (May 31, 2018)

I don't own those headphones so I can't say because I don't know how they scale


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## eidairaman1 (May 31, 2018)

paymok said:


> Thank you for the reply from everyone!
> The difficulty for me is to judge is the motherboard good enough to drive out the last 10% performance ? Will I be able to drive a few more % from an external stack ?
> 
> A more doubtful question, is this motherboard actually able to push out 90% performance ? Or actually it can only push 80% of performance?
> ...



Try and see first, might be able to save money


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## robot zombie (May 31, 2018)

I think it's worth it. Incidentally, I have an ROG Strix board with that same audio section, a Modi 2 U, a Vali 2, and a pair of 250 ohm DT 990 pros.

The clarity is actually pretty good on those mobos. And it will drive the DT 990s to very high levels. I's good enough that if it's all I had, I might not mind it too much. The overall sound isn't offensive, but it's not the greatest. The DT 990's are naturally a bit sibilant, and the on-board chip doesn't help with that. It's grainy. It also just sounds a little flat and lifeless. The on-board definitely seems to struggle a bit to drive them _well_, even if the volume does get pretty high. It just can't quite get to the far extremes of frequency response and dynamic range. And that makes things a bit mushy/congested on the top and bottom. The tonality just isn't even and dynamics sound a little weird and unrealistic. Unnatural. Which I guess is to be expected. Not really a big deal when you're talking on-board. Nature of the beast. These types of circuits are limited by size, complexity, and power source capabilities. They are really no different from portable DACs and amps. They're sort of gimped - a simulation of larger, more costly circuits. Their power sections just can't compare to larger dedicated amps. The DACs can get a little closer, though they too tend to be limited, cheap, and sort of stripped-down, design-wise. The ROGs components are just a bit less so compared to others. Think really nice phone vs crappy tracfone. It'll have comparable sound to the nice phone, which may be okay for you, even if it's not the best.

And yes, when people say "hard to drive" they aren't just talking about volume. Just because an amp can deliver x voltage at y impedance doesn't mean it necessarily always will whenever it's asked to. That only means it _can_ do it, on paper at least. In real life, headphone transducer impedance changes quite drastically with frequency. It can be half of what's spec'd at some points, and nearly double spec at others. Delivering a consistent wattage through this sort of load asks a lot more of a power source than a constant load does.  A good amp delivers consistent power to the drivers regardless of these huge swings in voltage and impedance. It's very important that it's able to consistently deliver high and low voltages as needed, and do so as fast as possible. Pulling this off successfully on an integrated circuit where it's not the only thing powered by its source gets much more complicated than it is on a discreet device. Everything will generally sound sort of implacably restrained or lacking, almost like the transducers are being governed-out. You can't really get around it with integrated audio. Most decent amps can swing the power well enough, but when they can't quite get there, the difference is noticeable enough to make you think your headphones just aren't very good. They can be loud, but by the time you get them to a listenable level, they sound like crap, even though they may sound amazing at low levels. That's because it can't control the voltage swing adequately at higher power levels.

I would say it still beats out most other bog-standard on-board audio. A lot of the fancier integrated stuff, too. It sounds good. Not audiophile quality but an incredible simulation. Like I said, if it were me and it's all I had, I'd still use and enjoy it. It'll work just fine with your DT 990s and it's really pretty good for what it is. Mobo sound is kind of limited, but you can do a helluva lot worse. I really don't want you to think it's bad. It's not bad at all, honestly. We have come a long way when it comes to cheap DAC chips and digital opamps. They're little, they pack a lot of power, and they actually sound a little better than okay. For not a lot of money, too. People argue there's no good reason to go beyond it. I disagree, but I can see why that's such a contentious point. There are good reasons for why someone might say that good integrated mobo sound is enough. They really do perform respectably well these days.

All that said, the Schiit stack pretty much blows it out of the water for me. The step-up from on-board to an actually-good, entry-level DAC/amp pairing is a pretty big one. This is where you see some serious improvements in detail granularity, dynamics, and tonality. Everything really opens up at that level. The M2U is a great DAC for the money. Those 4490 chips sound really natural and smooth when they're implemented properly. And with plenty of detail and clarity. The Vali 2 is a great amp to use with the sibilant DT-990s. That tube's not for show - it actually does have a sound that's unique to it, one you usually have to spend a lot more to get. It kind of smooths out the highs while also making them pop. It's almost like the audio equivalent to good anti-aliasing. Everything still sounds as it should, and yet somehow enhanced. Hard to place but really awesome. It's something sort of magical. Sorry, that's the best I can do. I'm not going to try and put it into flowery audiophile terms. Just know that it's the real deal.

I really would heartily recommend the Vali 2 over the Magni 3 for that particular set of headphones. For the money, it's just a little better suited to your headphones and a lot of other ones too. It's a very highly-regarded combo. Not necessarily better than the Magni 3, just different. If you've ever found those cans to be a bit harsh and unnatural, you'll really like it. Though if you're really set on the M3 instead, go for it. They're both good. It's just that in my experience with both, the Vali 2 is better for those headphones. Either way the entry level Schiit combos are a great way to get a taste of actual high-end audio. For most people, it will be more than enough to satisfy. Consider it an investment in years of much better audio experiences. It can very easily be just that. You really don't need to spend more to have something that good.

On that note I just wanna say a few things about audiophile things and stuff. I do very much agree that it's a risky thing to get into. There is a lot of snake oil out there. And even when it's legitimately better, the improvements in the upper range are much smaller than in the lower one. It's not linear at all. For instance, the ROG's on-board is miles better than a crappy phone's output, and the Schiit stack is the same to the ROG's on-board. They are not even comparable. But beyond that, it starts to really drop off. It becomes just another rung on the ladder, where you have to spend A LOT more and skip several rungs in order to get any significant improvements. It's always better, but still pretty hard to justify unless you're really serious on a level beyond simply enjoying the music or being immersed in movies/games. That first jump from "meh" to "oh wow this is good, I wanna listen to everything now" is huge, but a lot of people fall into the trap of chasing that over and over again without actually getting there again. It's easy to forget to just enjoy the music!

DACs are particularly notorious for massively diminishing returns. Amps to a lesser degree. For either one, there's generally a hard line between the good ones and the not-so-good ones, but past that it's mostly preference. It becomes less about quality and more a matter of taste. It's all good and some people have more expensive tastes. That's really all it is when you get into the really pricey stuff. Headphones and transducers in general, much less. They make the most difference. If you already have a good dac/amp and you don't like your sound, you should change out the headphones before anything else. Though you do need a good dac/amp too, just not as badly as you need the transducers. But even with those, you don't need to spend anywhere near 4 digits to have something really, really good.

I can tell you personally that I'm glad I started where I did. For the past 4 years I've had nothing but a pair of HD600's that I got used for stupid cheap, these DT 990s, and my M2U/Vali 2 stack. I still have little desire to upgrade my headphone setup, and I am pretty picky about audio. I still love this setup. If I could go back, I'd have gotten the HD600s first and skipped the DT 990s, but that's neither here nor there, heh. My advice, if you want to enjoy music optimally, is to invest in a really good, balanced pair of headphones that you find generally agreeable (HD 600s and 650s are among the best you can buy - no exaggeration) and stick with the Schiit stack. And if you already like the DT 990s, don't even bother with the HD600s. It may not actually be worth it. With that, call it mission accomplished. Spending a good chunk of money on something that matters to you just makes sense... ...think of what serious gamers spend on their rigs. $600 spent on something that you will really appreciate for years is pretty well-spent imo. But once you get it, realize that spending more won't give you as much as it did the first time around.

Don't get me wrong, I'd sure love to own a Yggdrasil - I'm not knocking people who spend a lot a lot a lot on their audio gear, it's just that I think that's something that's only worth it if your goals go beyond just having really good audio. For good audio, you do have to spend some good money, but not THAT much. Don't let anyone tell you that something like a Schiit stack doesn't make a difference or that it's not worth the money. It absolutely does and is, if your goal is to have good sound. But don't let anyone tell you that you need a bunch of stuff far pricier than that to _really_ get there. For 9/10 people, it just isn't true. It's not wrong to spend more - the differences may even be worth it if you're truly willing to. I have tried my share of high-end gear... ...I can tell you that most of it is amaaaaazing. But I'm not willing to drop that kind of money for it. It just isn't a requirement to get a sizable upgrade from the consumer-level stuff. If you want to see what it's all about, you've chosen a good starting (and probably) ending point. You'll probably really like it. You, like anybody else does, will likely hear the difference and appreciate it.

Just try not to overthink it from there. You already kind of are. The stack will sound significantly better than that particular mobo's audio output. And if you already like your DT990s, you will like them significantly more with the stack. That's all there is to it. All that's left to do is ask yourself if it's really worth a few hundred bucks. That's the big one. In my opinion it is, but that's only MY opinion.


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## OneMoar (May 31, 2018)

I mean 250 ohms will benefit from a amp/dedicated dac
I am fanboy  of the HT omega sound cards  over anything usb .... simply because usb is generally the noisiest buss on a pc,or worse cases with shitty ground isolation or loops


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## robot zombie (May 31, 2018)

OneMoar said:


> I mean 250 ohms will benefit from a amp/dedicated dac
> I am fanboy  of the HT omega sound cards  over anything usb .... simply because usb is generally the noisiest buss on a pc,or worse cases with shitty ground isolation or loops


At least the M2U doesn't take its power that way. It has its own switch mode power supply. It also supports optical and coaxial spdif... ...which I suppose has its own issues, though noise ain't one. Personally I don't have any problems using the optical on the mobo. I think maybe noise on the USB actually used to cause me drop-offs on an older board. Went away when I switched to this board and ran through optical.


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## paymok (May 31, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> I think it's worth it. Incidentally, I have an ROG Strix board with that same audio section, a Modi 2 U, a Vali 2, and a pair of 250 ohm DT 990 pros.
> 
> The clarity is actually pretty good on those mobos. And it will drive the DT 990s to very high levels. I's good enough that if it's all I had, I might not mind it too much. The overall sound isn't offensive, but it's not the greatest. The DT 990's are naturally a bit sibilant, and the on-board chip doesn't help with that. It's grainy. It also just sounds a little flat and lifeless. The on-board definitely seems to struggle a bit to drive them _well_, even if the volume does get pretty high. It just can't quite get to the far extremes of frequency response and dynamic range. And that makes things a bit mushy/congested on the top and bottom. The tonality just isn't even and dynamics sound a little weird and unrealistic. Unnatural. Which I guess is to be expected. Not really a big deal when you're talking on-board. Nature of the beast. These types of circuits are limited by size, complexity, and power source capabilities. They are really no different from portable DACs and amps. They're sort of gimped - a simulation of larger, more costly circuits. Their power sections just can't compare to larger dedicated amps. The DACs can get a little closer, though they too tend to be limited, cheap, and sort of stripped-down, design-wise. The ROGs components are just a bit less so compared to others. Think really nice phone vs crappy tracfone. It'll have comparable sound to the nice phone, which may be okay for you, even if it's not the best.
> 
> ...



Hi robot! 

Your comments do relief a lot of my doubts, I order m2u+m3 before I create this post, and I was skeptical will they even make it sounds better compare to my Mobo, if not I will just return them. But now I feel more confidence with my purchase, I just need to wait then arrive and try them out myself! 

I also saw Vali 2 before I put my fund into magni3, I was a little temptated to try out tube amp as it's just cost extra $50, but I wasn't so sure I should go for Vali 2 as it's a 2 years old product, at the end I decided to go with magni3 just because the product have a fresher product life. But apart from personal taste, is there any benefits to go with tube amp? Since the order is backdated , I still have some time to modify my order if I have a second thoughts. 

So far I'm happy with my 2years old dt990p, maybe 1 day I become more picky on audio and may get a pair of audeze headphone. =p


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## Space Lynx (May 31, 2018)

Vali 2 only costs $99 if you go to there B-Stock / Clearance page.

Scroll down - left hand side at bottom. I recommend Vali 2 over Magni 3. Even with stock tube its a lovely lovely sound. 

I am rocking a Schiit Lyr 3 and Schiit Modi Multibit myself, and honestly, its not that much better than Vali 2. 

Magni 3 limited soundstage too much imo.


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## paymok (May 31, 2018)

There are 111 quantity if bstock vali2! What’s wrong with these vali2 D:


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## Space Lynx (May 31, 2018)

paymok said:


> There are 111 quantity if bstock vali2! What’s wrong with these vali2 D:



Nothing, maybe a scratch or ding that they couldn't sell at MSRP, nothing sonically, as the website states. 

I highly recommend you buy one for $99 its a steal.


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## paymok (May 31, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> Nothing, maybe a scratch or ding that they couldn't sell at MSRP, nothing sonically, as the website states.
> 
> I highly recommend you buy one for $99 its a steal.



I see the bstock come with 115v adapter, unfortunately I need a U.K. plug, buying another adapter seems to add some extra cost, so I might consider to go with a brand new vali2 =). I also read some Other forums said some imbalance issue caused by the vali2 knob, compare to m3, m3 has a bigger and seems firmer knob, which makes me worry a little the build quality of vali2..


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## Space Lynx (May 31, 2018)

paymok said:


> I see the bstock come with 115v adapter, unfortunately I need a U.K. plug, buying another adapter seems to add some extra cost, so I might consider to go with a brand new vali2 =). I also read some Other forums said some imbalance issue caused by the vali2 knob, compare to m3, m3 has a bigger and seems firmer knob, which makes me worry a little the build quality of vali2..



I am not a huge fan of Schiit, but the added benefit of B-Stock items over buying brand new is that each B-Stock item is tested manually by Schiit directly (Schiit can't do that for every single item they ship new), and they confirm on their website it sounds sonically correct.  Just my two cents / basic logic.

Also, to prove I am not a Schiit fanboy, I most likely will be selling my Lyr 3 soon, just doesn't impress me at all, lol.


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## robot zombie (May 31, 2018)

paymok said:


> Hi robot!
> 
> Your comments do relief a lot of my doubts, I order m2u+m3 before I create this post, and I was skeptical will they even make it sounds better compare to my Mobo, if not I will just return them. But now I feel more confidence with my purchase, I just need to wait then arrive and try them out myself!
> 
> ...


Haha stick with it for a minute and see how you like it. The Magni 2 was pretty good, and the 3 is better. I do think the Vali 2 is a better performing amp on many levels... ...soundstage, tonality, microdetail (which... ...that's an iffy thing to get into - but basically it's the sense of very fine, low-level detail - you just know when it's there, though if you've never heard it you don't miss it.) The M3 has punchier dynamics, but it's a little grainy and congested compared to the Vali 2, though compared to consumer stuff neither are grainy at all. I'm really sort of splitting hairs.

Tube amps are... ...well it's hard to put them in a box. There's a ton of variance in architectures and even the tubes themselves, though generally there are two distinct types of tube sounds. The classic tube sound is really lush and warm... ...maybe even a tad dark, though they can also be "sweet" on the top end. Details are not always the main emphasis to it, and dynamics tend to be slowish. All in all its mushy, in a good way. It's that sloppy, tubey goodness. It just sort of slathers honey all over the sound. They pile on this heavy coloration that permeates everything you push through them. You're always hearing the amp. That sound is love it or hate it. Many, many people find that they love it. But it really is preference. I personally don't care for it, for what I listen to, anyway, though it is very pleasant. Finding tube amps like this is getting harder, so much so that it's hard to call it the real tube sound anymore. Most tube amps these days do not sound like this. But it is nonetheless the classic and what many people who are less familiar think of when they hear "tube sound." I think this unnecessarily scares a lot of people away from tubes. They don't want that warm, buttery, wishy-washy sound. They want clarity, detail, and even tempered tonality.

And then there is the "modern" tube sound, which is still very different from SS, but also nothing like what most people envision when they think of tube sound. Unlike classic tube amps, modern ones add little to no coloration. They don't necessarily change the frequency response all that much. They more just change how different frequencies manifest, if that makes sense. Overall tonality remains unaltered - they step out of the way. Modern tube amps also tend to actually be very fast when it comes to dynamic response. They can have some real oomf and immediacy to them, while also retaining this nice, laid-back quality to the upper midrange and top-end... ...a certain effortlessness. To me, that's really important, as this is where things usually go wrong in the budget range. Sibilance in that range is a real dealbreaker. At first you may think "wow it's SO crisp!" but that soon degrades to pain. And unfortunately, even the better DACs and SS amps in the budget range have this problem to some degree.

By comparison, a lot of the better modern tube amps have this almost shimmery, holographic quality on the upper end. I guess I'd call it "spread-out." It's not really, but it has the feel of being 3-dimensional. It messes with frequencies that your brain uses to determine spacial cues and identify what a sound source actually is. The extra high-order harmonics imparted by a tube circuit's hallmark odd-order distortion add what are basically little markers and cues that are typically lost in a recording, but ARE there in real life. They're subtle - you don't perceive them directly. But they make big changes to your overall perception. They give you a better sense of fullness, space, and realism. You could argue that a tube amp, though less true to the source, actually reproduces sound more in the way that we hear it out in the world. Whether that's actually true or not, I and I'm sure countless others can attest to having that experience. A cello sounds more like a cello, a bird sounds more like a bird, and a tom sounds more like a tom. The reverb in a concert hall sounds more like a concert hall, while a garage still sounds like a garage. Cymbals just dance across the top, and violin sections bloom and jump out at you. Guitar string noises seem to come from all around. A lot of little things like that get your attention and draw you in.

Theres this vividness to it that you can't always get with full SS amps. Everything is very crisp, clear, and smooth. There's a liveliness to it that compliments basically anything. It's something you can usually only get easily with good, well-placed speakers. It sounds almost realer than real. Transients, man. The attack on a snare hit. The vocalist's breathing as they project. The plucking of strings. The grit and pop of distorted bass guitar. The fine, granular details of modern synthesizers. The sound of raindrops hitting the ground, or leaves rustling in the wind. These things gain nuance from tube amps. It's really hard to describe, but you really can't un-hear it.

And this comes from the way these amps distort. If you ever look at the distortion caused by a tube amp, it's different from what a fully SS amp puts out. Solid state distortion is nasty, sharp, and janky. Visually, it actually looks pixelated. It is usually not there, but it's very, very unpleasant when you hear it. Fortunately most SS amps have effectively zero distortion. Tube amps on the other hand, distort more and do so intentionally. Where most ss amps have less than 1% distortion, some tube amps can have as much as 10%! Though oddly enough this usually doesn't translate to any percieved degradation. Rather than a jaggy, peaky mess, it appears more as a slightly rounded off curve. It's a smooth and very slight distortion that adds pleasant saturation to different frequencies, generally without any sacrifice to perceived detail (and many times it actually enhances the sense of details heard.) If I didn't tell you it was distorting like crazy, you'd never know. For most people, this is a pleasant and subtle effect that only makes music sound better and more natural, with SS amps potentially sounding sterile by comparison, though this is not always the case.

There are two basic ways an amp can alter sound. The first is by omission. SS amps tend to go this way and this makes them sound clean, if not sometimes lacking. To get that super-low distortion, you often have to sacrifice some good things. This is why a $35 amp can boast crazy frequency response range and hyper-low distortion on paper, but still sound like crap in reality. The second is by addition. Tube amps add harmonic content, potentially at the expense of sounding overdone or washy. Whether either of these things is good or bad depends on the amp. Better SS amps have less omission errors, and the ones they do have are desired. Better tube amps have slighter addition errors, and still the ones remaining only make them sound better. Putting two good ones next to each other is apples to oranges. It's really just a different way of dealing with aspects of the sound that take away from ones experience. One simply doesn't render them, while the other leaves everything in and smooths it over. Both ways work exceptionally well when done right. Ideally, you wouldn't actually hear the difference between the two, save for a few minor, preferential things. The idea is for them to get out of the way and let the music through like they're supposed to. It just turns out there are many ways to accomplish this. Different ways are better for different transducers. It comes down to what yours excel at and where they fall off.

And on that note, I think the Vali 2 does what it does better than the Magni line does what it does. It's not about tube or no tube. It's a matter of execution and efficacy. If the Magni 3 were more effective as a fully solid state amp than the Vali 2 is as a hybrid, I'd prefer that instead. The better amp invariably just sounds, well... better, lol. The only real difference to consider between two similarly performing amps is what sorts of loads they drive most optimally. A lot of tube amps are better for low-sensitivity, high-impedance headphones, while SS amps tend to do a much better job with IEM's, more sensitive, lower impedance dynamic headphones, and planars. Both of these amps will power a pretty wide range of different things well, with the Vali 2 edging out with high-ohm stuff, so I'd take the Vali 2 every time.

Getting back to tube vs SS, the Vali 2 definitely falls into camp modern, especially being that it's a hybrid. It's a tube preamp with a SS power section and a very good example of what is possible with modern tube amp architectures. The tube preamp and SS power section combo essentially seems to give it the speed, bottom end punch, and cleanliness of a full SS amp while also putting a little tube dazzle on it. There isn't really anything I'd say is preference about it. I think most people will find the Vali 2 just a little better across the board. I'd go so far as to say it's one of the best things Schiit has ever come up with. It's an inexpensive amp that outperforms most things in its price class... ...so much so that many more expensive amps may not even seem worth it. I mean it, man! The Vali 2 has just enough tube action going on to enhance things without getting into the drawback territory of tube architectures. At the same time, it has little of the drawbacks of the Magni line, and all of the benefits. Sort of the best of both worlds. It has none of the drawbacks of less expensive SS amps, and some of the benefits of higher-end tube amps.

And on the knob thing... ...the imbalance is only perceptible at very low levels. You may notice it when driving something really sensitive, but personally I never even noticed it until it was pointed out to me. And even now, I forget it's a thing that happens. By the time you get to listenable levels, it's not a problem. I'd even say the pot is nice. It feels nice, there's no crackle, and it does allow for a good deal of fine tuning. The build quality on these things is pretty good. I've dropped mine. When I was moving, I actually dropped a JBL LSR 305 on it and while I shattered the tube, the amp has been fine. And that was over a year ago now. One thing I can say about Schiit, whether you love or hate their sound and approach, is that they really do select the best components you can get at a reasonable price point. They are inexpensive, but never cheap.


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## Space Lynx (May 31, 2018)

well said, the vali 2 at $99 is hard to beat. and you honestly don't even need to upgrade the stock tube, but say your gf or wife wants to buy you something for bday and can never think of anything, well tell them you want a golden lion tube for it. or head over to head fi vali 2 forum page at head-fi.com or w.e it is called. there is a vali 2 tube rolling thread, just browse it.


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## robot zombie (May 31, 2018)

lynx29 said:


> well said, the vali 2 at $99 is hard to beat. and you honestly don't even need to upgrade the stock tube, but say your gf or wife wants to buy you something for bday and can never think of anything, well tell them you want a golden lion tube for it. or head over to head fi vali 2 forum page at head-fi.com or w.e it is called. there is a vali 2 tube rolling thread, just browse it.


Thanks. I'm no schiit fanboy myself, but the Vali 2 really is a great value. I got mine full price and I still have no regrets. 99 bucks for an all-rounder with actual tube goodness is such a no-brainer!

And yeah, I'd second the tube rolling recommendation. It really isn't needed, but it does add to the performance. The stock tube is good, but the aftermarket ones are generally better, even the cheap ones. They'll get ya that extra 10%, or maybe just some subjective changes you'll appreciate. Just don't get carried away, spending more on tubes than the amp itself. Maybe try 3 cheaper ones or something. Collect a few here and there. It's fun.

Most of my tubes, I've gotten for cheap just talking to people online and stuff like that. People frequently collect, trade, and sell them off. Which, sometimes that's not a bad way to try a lot of different ones without spending a whole lot. I got a really, REALLY nice tube for something like $10. The guy just wanted to pass some of his unused ones on to somebody who'd appreciate them. He actually gave me 3 tubes. A Matsushita 7dj8, two pretty rare Valvo tubes (one of which was like, the holy grail for me - I could have turned that one over for $50 or more back then, probably more now.) The Valvo unfortunately got lost. Now I use the Matsushita and really like it. And those guys can be had for what? 20 bucks?

Point is, sometimes if you ask around in the right places, some kind soul might help you out. Other times, suppliers come into a surplus of good, vintage tubes and thus sell them off dirt cheap. Dirt cheap tubes are often pretty good. The most common tubes out there are $10-$20 generally, and they're still great as a small upgrade. It's rarity that makes them expensive. A super-rare, $100+ tube may not actually sound much better - it's just that people want them, or certain amps that take several of them are built up around them and there aren't enough to go around.

Now, the most expensive tube I had was a Phillips PCC88. That thing was really something else and opened my ears to the idea that tube rolling really isn't nonsense. It cost me $40. Not a huge deal. Too bad this is the one I broke. Man... that one hurt me. Now, they go for like $60. :/


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## paymok (Jun 1, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> Thanks. I'm no schiit fanboy myself, but the Vali 2 really is a great value. I got mine full price and I still have no regrets. 99 bucks for an all-rounder with actual tube goodness is such a no-brainer!
> 
> And yeah, I'd second the tube rolling recommendation. It really isn't needed, but it does add to the performance. The stock tube is good, but the aftermarket ones are generally better, even the cheap ones. They'll get ya that extra 10%, or maybe just some subjective changes you'll appreciate. Just don't get carried away, spending more on tubes than the amp itself. Maybe try 3 cheaper ones or something. Collect a few here and there. It's fun.
> 
> ...



thanks! now i really thinking go for a Vali 2 B-stock. But still i am a little bit worry on the B-stock quality,
I understand they do test them over, but who knows anything they have missed! they said they could even found some while cleaning out shop!
I am waiting for their reply, and also think if magni 3 and Vali 2 makes such a good differences, and if i am worry about the B-stock Vali2...
Maybe should go for Magni 3 + Vali 2 B-stock.... ? I am not live in US so to me the shipment cost already added $40 sth, plus let say if i am so unfortunate needs to send back a defect Vali 2 b-stock,
thats another $40 sth, the total shipment cost can buy another Magni 3. If thats the case I wouldn't bother to send back to defect Vali 2 if anything wrong. 
If the Vali 2 b-stock is perfectly fine, is it worth to have 2 amp? of course i can also sell it locally see which one suits me better after hear them out.

well they just dump out bunch of modi 2, magni 2 uber. Now i am getting more choice to pick...


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## robot zombie (Jun 2, 2018)

paymok said:


> thanks! now i really thinking go for a Vali 2 B-stock. But still i am a little bit worry on the B-stock quality,
> I understand they do test them over, but who knows anything they have missed! they said they could even found some while cleaning out shop!
> I am waiting for their reply, and also think if magni 3 and Vali 2 makes such a good differences, and if i am worry about the B-stock Vali2...
> Maybe should go for Magni 3 + Vali 2 B-stock.... ? I am not live in US so to me the shipment cost already added $40 sth, plus let say if i am so unfortunate needs to send back a defect Vali 2 b-stock,
> ...


I think if it came down to a situation like that, they *might* just help you out. I guess that is a real risk. I've always kind of assumed most of the b-stock doesn't meet cosmetic standards. It's not like they take a bad board and refurbish it. I remember reading that they're kind of picky when it comes to casework. Sometimes they get a batch that's not quite to spec. Maybe the sizing isn't quite right or something doesn't align quite like the others. Maybe the finish is wrong, or there are imperfections. Or the lettering is sloppy. Maybe they forgot the bevel... ...things like that.

In fact, I think that'd explain why they have so many. Could just be a subpar run of cases. Usually it's either cosmetic, or customer just didn't want it. Everything they sell is under warranty, so if a customer sends in a defective/broken unit, they fix it and send it back. And if they can't fix it, they toss it.

So yeah, maybe a risk. But not a huge one imo. That's really your call to make. I'm not gonna sit here and tell you nahhhh it'll be fine and then have that exact thing happen, haha!




> well they just dump out bunch of modi 2, magni 2 uber. Now i am getting more choice to pick...


Magni 2 Uber is a pretty solid amp. For $69 it's a killer deal. I still think the Vali 2 is a good bit better for what they're asking, but if you want something that's still good and costs even less, not a bad option. It won't let ya down.

The Modi 2... ...well the older ones weren't the greatest. Nowhere near the clarity and smoothness of the Uber... ...a bit on the "digital" side. On par with maybe the ODAC or something similar. Now when I heard it, they were using a different dac chip. Now, they use 4490's in em instead - just like they started doing in the Uber. It's a much nicer chip. But the OG Modi still has the problem of USB power, which in addition to being kind of wonky and prone to random drop-outs, does seem to affect the overall sound negatively. How bad it is comes down to things that you can't know off of the bat. It depends on how noisey your usb is, how the mobo actually handles usb power, and a few other things. Even other components installed can affect it negatively. USB power is not made to do that. By trying to power a sensitive piece of audio equipment via USB, you are subjecting it to interference from basically everything else on the board, and maybe even things in the room, via other components in the computer picking up interference and passing it down the line. DACs are just that power sensitive. It's very important. When the power screws up/dips/peaks, DACs tend to just not work... ...as in randomly just disconnect. With some computers, it's not bad - you may just get pops and clicks, while others can be pretty crummy - frequent dropouts, failure to detect, terrible quality, etc.. With the one I tried, simply turning on the fan in the room would force a disconnect. Seriously! And it's not defective. It's just not a good design. Otherwise it sounded okay...

You won't know until you try. This is another one of those things where it's REALLY good for the money, but that's about it. With better components the risk of running into issues like that is less, but the quality still suffers from subpar USB power. Schiit actually invented the Wyrd specifically to deal with this. By isolating the USB, it stops the dropouts and supposedly increases quality (dunno if they even believe that - and they say so, which is kind of funny). But now you've bought a $100 box just to make your $70 box work like it should. Might as well get the M2U at that point.

And having 2 amps? Nah I don't think it's worth it, unless you plan on having multiple pairs of cans with different synergies... ...but even that seems crazy to me  I reckon most people have a favorite they'll always come back to. Well... I guess they both have unbalanced outs, so you can use the less favored one as a preamp for volume control on powered speakers. Just split the output from your dac. Kind of an expensive preamp though.


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## Space Lynx (Jun 2, 2018)

I own 5 amps, 3 DAC's, and 11 headphones at the moment, and have owned over 200 headphones in the last 3 years. lol

my favorite budget combo is still the Philips SHP-9500S with Hm5 leather earpads and Fiio K1 amp/dac, but it scales nicely, so I don't use the fiio k1 anymore myself, lyr 3 of course


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## paymok (Jun 2, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> I think if it came down to a situation like that, they *might* just help you out. I guess that is a real risk. I've always kind of assumed most of the b-stock doesn't meet cosmetic standards. It's not like they take a bad board and refurbish it. I remember reading that they're kind of picky when it comes to casework. Sometimes they get a batch that's not quite to spec. Maybe the sizing isn't quite right or something doesn't align quite like the others. Maybe the finish is wrong, or there are imperfections. Or the lettering is sloppy. Maybe they forgot the bevel... ...things like that.
> 
> In fact, I think that'd explain why they have so many. Could just be a subpar run of cases. Usually it's either cosmetic, or customer just didn't want it. Everything they sell is under warranty, so if a customer sends in a defective/broken unit, they fix it and send it back. And if they can't fix it, they toss it.
> 
> ...



Yes the risk is a bit of the concern to me, I saw someone had vali2 and he had some ring issue , and schiit didn't repair it as they said that is normal, so at the end he returned it and bought a little-dot 1 instead.

I read further and found most tube amp needs to warm up the tube before actual use? And better turn it off if not use ? I'm a bit concerned on this because I was planned to connect the vali2 to my desktop speaker, I seldom turn off my computer, I leave the whole rig stay on all the time. Will it hurts a lot to the amp and tube? 

I see people also saids if I decided to keep it power on all the time , then just got for M3. 

Also what's your opinion on modi2 multibit? It's another $100 but is it worth? I saw some reviews they said they can't really hear a difference. Or maybe safe to just avoid it ?

Just placed my order on a vali2 bstock, hope it sounds good !


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## FordGT90Concept (Jun 2, 2018)

I had a Schiit Modi 2/Magni 2 stack.  The Modi 2 died.  Schiit wouldn't talk to me at all after a month of calling and emailing them.  I refuse to buy their equipment.  Replaced both devices with a Micca OriGen+.  At low volume, it has L/R distortion that the Magni 2 didn't have.  It also came with a rubbish micro USB cable that caused two BSODs.  Micca said to replace the audio cable with a different one, I did, and haven't had any problems since.  I'd say it's as good or better for almost half the price.


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## robot zombie (Jun 2, 2018)

paymok said:


> Yes the risk is a bit of the concern to me, I saw someone had vali2 and he had some ring issue , and schiit didn't repair it as they said that is normal, so at the end he returned it and bought a little-dot 1 instead.


I know the Vali 1 was somewhat notorious for that. I can't remember the specifics anymore, but it had something to do with both the tube inside and the whole design. Bear in mind it's a completely different amp from the Vali 2.

That said, pretty much all tube amps can be made to ring. Vibrations in the tube generate sound. Some tubes ring more than others. My Vali 2 rings. Just not all of the time. The action of the switches causes ringing that fades after a few seconds. Otherwise the only way I ever hear it ring is if I tap the tube with my finger. Because of the power-on relays, you'll never hear it ring unless you flip the gain switch while its on. It sounds like a soft "PING!" that rapidly fades out. Again, not something you'll hear while actually using the amp.

I dunno what happened with that guys amp. Sounds a little strange. Like I said, the original ones were prone to constant ringing - it did happen to a handful of people. But I've never heard of it being a problem with the Vali 2.



> I read further and found most tube amp needs to warm up the tube before actual use? And better turn it off if not use ? I'm a bit concerned on this because I was planned to connect the vali2 to my desktop speaker, I seldom turn off my computer, I leave the whole rig stay on all the time. Will it hurts a lot to the amp and tube?


Tubes degrade like light bulbs. Average for the ones used in the V2 is ~10000 hours running. So yes you will want to keep the amp off when not in use. You can leave the dac and everything else on, just flip the switch on the amp. At least it's a really satisfying switch!  Leaving it on won't hurt the amp. Just the tube inside.

10k hours doesn't sound like a lot, but if you leave it on 4 hours a day, that's actually well over a year, at the low end. Possibly much more on the high end of what's possible. So even with heavier use, you'll likely get at least a couple of years out of a $10 tube by just turning it on only when you are at your computer and turning it off when you get up to leave or do something else. No big deal. Again, simple as flipping a switch.

Personally, I have a handful of tubes I alternate and one I tend to stick to. I have yet to burn one out in several years. I use my Vali 2 daily. Often several hours at a time.

If it really becomes a concern for you, you could always invest in the Sys for controlling your speakers. I like it because it has 2 inputs and you can use the toggle to mute the one that's active. I keep a USB recording interface feeding one and the M2U feeding the other. So when I'm working I can easily switch over to the recording interface. And when I just wanna enjoy myself or maybe hear my mixes on something nicer, I can switch right back over to the M2U. Even when not using it like that, having a mute button is appealing. I split the output from the M2U. One run goes to the sys and then the speakers. The other goes straight to the Vali 2. So when I wanna use headphones, I just switch on the amp and hit the button on the sys to mute the output to the speakers. Handy.

On the whole warm-up thing... ...I don't fully buy it. It doesn't take more than a minute or two for the heaters to bring the tube up to temperature. But hey, maybe there's a difference. People say a lot of things don't make a difference when I can hear a clear difference. I just have no idea how one would test that, if you really even could. All I know is mine seems to sound good right after turning it on. I personally don't hear a difference.



> Also what's your opinion on modi2 multibit? It's another $100 but is it worth? I saw some reviews they said they can't really hear a difference. Or maybe safe to just avoid it ?


It's been tempting me for a long time. I really REALLY liked it. Thing has next-level performance, IMO. Completely different dac from the M2U. Comparable to the bifrost multibit. Personally I think people who say there's no difference between multibit and traditional are crazy, but even I have to concede that it's approaching the point of diminishing returns. But still, to get that kind of dac for $300 is a pretty big deal. If you're interested in multibit tech specifically, it's well worth the money. Otherwise, I'd probably pass.

Another thing worth noting, with the DT 990's, I think it surpasses the limit of what they can actually resolve, as I don't hear as pronounced of a difference. With my JBL LSR 305's or the HD600's, it's much more noticable... ...mostly just a lot more microdetail. It just adds a few extra layers to the sound - subtle but very meaningful. Otherwise it's just a little better tonally.



> Just placed my order on a vali2 bstock, hope it sounds good !


I'm excited for you man! I think you'll really like it.

Side recc... if you have a spare, use the optical output on your mobo to the modi. Don't know if it sounds better, but it'll mitigate any problems that USB might cause. USB is just a crappy way to send high-quality audio. Plus, with optical out, you don't even need drivers.



lynx29 said:


> I own 5 amps, 3 DAC's, and 11 headphones at the moment, and have owned over 200 headphones in the last 3 years. lol
> 
> my favorite budget combo is still the Philips SHP-9500S with Hm5 leather earpads and Fiio K1 amp/dac, but it scales nicely, so I don't use the fiio k1 anymore myself, lyr 3 of course


You aren't normal! 

Nah, but from one enthusiast to another, I do get that. I've done a lot of mailers. And when I am able to return gear, I'll pay the shipping to try it. Same reason I go to the trade shows. It's fun to try all sorts of gear. And sometimes you're just in the mood for something different. Sometimes you get something and maybe it's not as good as what you already had, but it's hard to part with. I've had my share of sad goodbyes.

I still think most people would do well to stick to the one they keep coming back to and save the money for other things. Besides, why have two amps and one okay pair of headphones when you could have one amp and an AWESOME pair of headphones? Yanno?


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## paymok (Jun 3, 2018)

robot zombie said:


> If it really becomes a concern for you, you could always invest in the Sys for controlling your speakers. I like it because it has 2 inputs and you can use the toggle to mute the one that's active. I keep a USB recording interface feeding one and the M2U feeding the other. So when I'm working I can easily switch over to the recording interface. And when I just wanna enjoy myself or maybe hear my mixes on something nicer, I can switch right back over to the M2U. Even when not using it like that, having a mute button is appealing. I split the output from the M2U. One run goes to the sys and then the speakers. The other goes straight to the Vali 2. So when I wanna use headphones, I just switch on the amp and hit the button on the sys to mute the output to the speakers. Handy.



I am not too understand, how to you run two output from M2U?
I have 2.1 computer speaker (A good old speaker), 
Here is my initial thought of now to connect all the sources and outputs.




Since you mentioning Sys, and i look it up it is  2 IN 1 out switch, looks like just a switch for switching between 2 sources?


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## robot zombie (Jun 4, 2018)

paymok said:


> I am not too understand, how to you run two output from M2U?
> I have 2.1 computer speaker (A good old speaker),
> Here is my initial thought of now to connect all the sources and outputs.
> View attachment 102023
> Since you mentioning Sys, and i look it up it is  2 IN 1 out switch, looks like just a switch for switching between 2 sources?


The sys has a switch and potentiometer. It's a completely passive device. It doesn't alter the signal, it just lets it through to varying degrees. At 100% it acts like it's not even there. As you turn the knob, it attenuates the signal more and more. The degradation is so slight you'll never hear it. Better than a crappy active preamp that can add noise, distortion, and coloration. Maybe better than good ones, too. Handy volume control for powered monitors, too. I use the toggle because I have two output devices from my computer - the M2U and my crappy Behringer recording interface. That one has its own RCA outs. The sys lets me output one or the other through my speakers. Though when I'm just using the M2U, the toggle doubles as a way to quickly mute the speakers, for when I'm using the Vali 2 instead.

Looks like you've got it right with connecting everything, assuming that you mean to connect the Vali 2's output on the back to your speakers. Since you're using the Vali 2's preamp out for your speakers, no splitter is needed. You can toggle between PC - M2U - Vali 2 - headphones/speakers or console - M2U - Vali 2 - headphones/speakers by pressing the button on the M2U. It automatically starts picking up the sound. And if you have it set as your default, Win10 should automatically pick it back up when you switch back.

To work in the sys, you split the M2U's L/R outputs with two pairs of RCA y-cable splitters like these. One pair goes to the Vali 2, while the other goes to the sys, which goes to your speakers. This allows you to isolate the speakers from the Vali 2 and still have volume control, so you can leave the amp off when you're using your speakers. All you do to switch is press the toggle on the sys to essentially mute your speakers and then flip on the Vali 2.

I can give that arrangement a soft recommendation. Most people like to have a transparent preamp output to speakers. Distortion and coloration are usually a detriment to speakers. You want to alter the signal as little as possible. Tube magic is great for toning down headphones and giving a better sense of space - many have problems there, but most speakers don't share those same problems and simply don't benefit. And neither does your tube.

I mean, there are great active preamps out there - some even have tubes, but the Vali 2 is not much of one really. Not bad, and not good. So it doesn't add anything other than wear on the tube. And that wear isn't worth it imo. I've tried using my Vali 2 a preamp and it does not have the same magic with speakers as it does headphones. The differences were honestly very, very subtle. Hard to even tell apart. So you're burning up your tube a little quicker, but you're not appreciating it. Maybe with cheap tubes its okay, but what about nice tubes? You'd want to swap to a cheaper one to use the speakers, which isn't so convenient anymore.

Don't get me wrong, you absolutely can run the Vali 2 to your speakers if you want. It _is_ simple and convenient and saves on cable clutter. It's not the worst thing in the world to use the Vali 2 is an active pre-amp. It's just hard to recommend doing it if you can help it. I suppose you could always argue the sys isn't needed, since the sound isn't critically altered. And just like with your headphones, you can keep it off when not using the speakers either. I should mention that the Vali 2 only takes around 10 seconds to kick up. It's nothing. There's no reason to leave it on just to have your speakers ready to go or have the tube "pre-warmed" or whatever. And then, if you tube roll a little, tube wear probably won't be a problem at all. Alternating 2 or 3 should get you several years of use.

So there are reasons not to get the sys, too. I can't really tell you how you should hook up your system. It's a matter of what you need to do, how you want it done, and what compromises are okay for you.

It's rediculous and I don't know who does this, but if you don't mind giving up volume control from the sys, you can actually hook it up backwards. It actually works both ways. You just have to max the volume knob. So you would feed the M2U into the OUTPUT of the sys, plug the Vali 2 into one INPUT, and plug your speakers into the other. When run this way, it actually outputs from the output to whichever input you've got selected via the button, if that makes sense.  This way, you can truly have your $50 toggle button.


I just wanna say I use a ridiculous amount of splitters, heh <_< I have the output from the M2U split to feed both the sys and the Vali 2. The output from the sys is ALSO split to feed two speakers plus a sub's input. Then they sys's other input is connected to the recording interface. It's just a mess of RCA cables, a lot of them way longer than they should've been. The shortest I had found back then were 3 feet! I try not to look back there.

Now, for you I'd recommend these. They're not top quality cables, but they're short, cheap, and don't sound terrible/noisy. Sufficient.


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