# Are we Alone?



## mlee49 (May 6, 2011)

A question that has plagued humanity since the dawn of self awareness.

Do you believe in other living life forms? Are they microscopic? Are they intelligent? Are they blobs of jello?


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## NdMk2o1o (May 6, 2011)

mlee49 said:


> A question that has pleauged humainty since the dawn of self awareness.
> 
> Do you believe in other living life forms? Are they microscopic? Are they intelligent? Are they blobs of jello?



I don't know if we are alone, and being a sceptical person I would of once said yes, however I do know for fact that both UFO's (as in either a way classified top secret aircraft made by man or something made from another life form) and ghosts most do definately exist. 

I have seen both and even now i find myself questioning my own eyes, I dont tell too many people cause I know what I am like when people tell me they have seen things or when I watch the shitty paranormal programs on cable TV at 2am cause nothing else is on.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

i cannot believe there isn't life, i just don't see it being possible.

i don't think there is anything special about us, we came about by 
natural processes, and those same processes occur throughout the 
universe.

so i definitely believe there is life out there, and we are not alone.


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## theJesus (May 6, 2011)

I believe what I see, but I do not discount the possibility of that which I have yet to see.

In other words, just because I haven't seen them, that doesn't mean they _can't_ exist.

edit:  And wtf is pleauged?


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## A Cheese Danish (May 6, 2011)

No, we are not alone. There is life out there, whether it is super intelligent or not.


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## AltecV1 (May 6, 2011)

there is no life out there,its just us


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## Bow (May 6, 2011)

i am a 100% believer in the Ancient Alien Theory and the story of Enoch.  I have believed in this since reading Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods in high school.  I read everything I can on that subject and ancient cultures.

http://www.reversespins.com/enoch.html


*WE ARE NOT ALONE​*


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## theJesus (May 6, 2011)

AltecV1 said:


> there is no life out there,its just us


I find it hard to be absolutely certain about whether there is or isn't life in such a vast universe that we haven't really been able to explore at all.  However, I think there is a much greater possibility of life than of no life.



Bow said:


> i am a 100% believer in the Ancient Alien Theory and the story of Enoch.  I have believed in this since reading Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods in high school.  I read everything I can on that subject and ancient cultures.
> 
> http://www.reversespins.com/enoch.html


I think there is some merit to the ancient alien theory.  I definitely wouldn't dismiss it.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

I think life is part of the universe, I.E The  physics causes life to start,developing from that first instance though is another thing.

Although I'd like to think their is intelligent life out there.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

i believe pretty much anything is possible, but i think Erich von Däniken 
is a flake.  if all you do is read his work, it's pretty easy to believe him.

that's because he cuts out everything that doesn't fit his theories.  he 
changes facts to fit his theories.  you need to look for information from
multiple sources, so that you can tell when you are being deceived.

I read a book that laid out danikens evidence, and then showed what he
changed, and what he left out that when taken in context, entirely
negates his "evidence"

the moral of the story - believe in things, sure - but think for yourself,
and get information from varied sources, not one guy whose entire
livelihood depends on people buying his stuff.


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## afw (May 6, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4izhwg3Mo&feature=share


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## trickson (May 6, 2011)

mlee49 said:


> A question that has pleauged humainty since the dawn of self awareness.
> 
> Do you believe in other living life forms? Are they microscopic? Are they intelligent? Are they blobs of jello?



Yes . There is life every were in the universe , How can we be the only living things EVERY WHERE ? It is arrogant and just plain stupid to me to think that we are the only rock in the vastness that the universe is to be alive .  

Yes in fact we are not alone and the universe is alive with countless forms of life and intelligent life at that .

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean that they are not there . We are not really that smart nor have we the means to begin to recognize other life forms as we think they maybe .


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## HossHuge (May 6, 2011)

I've always thought about it like this.  Earth was made from rocks from space.  Now we are on Earth. Doesn't that mean that we came from space?  I find it very hard to believe that the one rock that brought life (as we know it) to Earth was the only one.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> I've always thought about it like this.  Earth was made from rocks from space.  Now we are on Earth. Doesn't that mean that we came from space?  I find it very hard to believe that the one rock that brought life (as we know it) to Earth was the only one.



we are all made of stars


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## Bow (May 6, 2011)

@digibucc
I agree with what you said about Erich von Däniken, and tho I read his books I prefer reading the late Zecharia Sitchin's books.
http://www.sitchin.com/#zecspassing


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## lilhasselhoffer (May 6, 2011)

The questions is about other living lifeforms............

Sunk in yet...............

The answer is an unequivocal yes.  We've found bacteria in asteroids and bacterial fossils on other planets.  The real question (as others have already pointed out) is intelligent lifeforms.  I remain skeptical, and think our first encounter will give us the answer and expand the dishes in the cannibal's cookbook.  I wonder if they'll like how we taste, or just remove us through teraforming and manual termination?


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## micropage7 (May 6, 2011)

this world and universe is too big for us to live all alone, there must be another creatures but we are as human being is given all to be the chosen one to discover and take care all that made by the God
sorry, its kinda too hard for my brain


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## FordGT90Concept (May 6, 2011)

mlee49 said:


> Do you believe in other living life forms? Are they microscopic? Are they intelligent? Are they blobs of jello?


Yes, some are, some are, some are.

The USSR (at the height of the Cold War, no less) has tried to intercept USOs and have had significant damage to warships because of it.  If that isn't blatant proof there's visitors with far superior technology than ours, I don't know what is.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

i personally don't see the chances of us having already had contact with alien life being
very high.  of course it is possible, but for something so mind-blowingly huge, there is
little, little evidence to support it. it's mostly people's word, and that is not enough.

sure governments can hide stuff - but i just can't believe they are able to hide known
contact with alien life.  they are not that competent, and that is a big secret.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> i personally don't see the chances of us having already had contact with alien life being
> very high.  of course it is possible, but for something so mind-blowingly huge, there is
> little, little evidence to support it. it's mostly people's word, and that is not enough.
> 
> ...


There's lot's of cases with physical evidence (also known as "trace cases").  The major ones are listed here:
http://ufos.about.com/od/physicalproofcases/UFO_Cases_with_Physical_Proof.htm

USSR and other governments (believe Brazil was another) do not hide encounters between their militaries and unidentified craft.  They have well documented cases of phenomena they could not explain.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

To be fair, most life that is advance enough to travel to our planet, probably looks down and thinks " shit me!!!! What primitive slobs. Maybe later".


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

FordGT90Concept said:


> There's lot's of cases with physical evidence (also known as "trace cases").  The major ones are listed here:
> http://ufos.about.com/od/physicalproofcases/UFO_Cases_with_Physical_Proof.htm
> 
> USSR and other governments (believe Brazil was another) do not hide encounters between their militaries and unidentified craft.  They have well documented cases of phenomena they could not explain.



yeah but "we don't understand" is a far cry from "it's intelligent life"

my point is that, that evidence is not evidence.  it begs the question, 
but cannot confirm the answer.


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## MilkyWay (May 6, 2011)

I cant remember the name of the word im looking for but i mean "something that is impossible to tell". Like if someone asks if God is real, you can neither prove or disprove this statement. I tend to lean to the side that says the universe is too big not to have anything out there. However I wont argue over the existence of other life because i cannot prove or disprove any theory.

I don't really believe in ancient civilization contact with aliens because there isn't definitive evidence so again i just think we don't know anything for sure to me its just possibilities, things that may have happened. There isnt enough evidence to support any real theories.

As for a multiverse or parallel universes, string theory and that there is many existences all existing at the same time; well it all seems to be likely to me.

There are theories about ancient civilizations and alien contact with the pyramids being one example and uses of electricity such as the Baghdad battery. Even devil worshipping stemming from alien encounters and Illuminati conspiracies involving aliens.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> yeah but "we don't understand" is a far cry from "it's intelligent life"
> 
> my point is that, that evidence is not evidence.  it begs the question,
> but cannot confirm the answer.


Read the descriptions that people that witnessed it provided.  Often they involve a featureless metalitic object, hovering, then shooting into space at speeds no human creation can even approach.  They're obviously mechanical and something vastly more intelligent had to make it.  There's simply no other reasonable explaination.  Hell, Navy divers even witnessed one UFO repairing another deep under water off of Newfoundland, Canada, proving that they are both mechanical and intelligent.

"Evidence is not evidence" is an oxymoron.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Read the descriptions that people that witnessed it provided.  Often they involve a featureless metalitic object, hovering, then shooting into space at speeds no human creation can even approach.  They're obviously mechanical and something vastly more intelligent had to make it.  There's simply no other reasonable explaination.
> 
> "Evidence is not evidence" is an oxymoron.



oxymoron or not, my point was clear.  fine then, i'll just say : that's not evidence.

personal accounts are not scientific enough to proclaim aliens have visited us.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 6, 2011)

Material on the ground that could not be identified by our equipment that, when touched, made a woman's hand permanently numb.  Other evidence of trees being broken by a metal object crashing to the ground that took no damage from said impact, had strange "symbols" on it, and gets carted off on an unmarked truck within 15 minutes later.  These, among many other cases that are on that link.  I suggest you read up.

The facts are there, most people choose to ignore them because there's nothing they can do about it.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> oxymoron or not, my point was clear.  fine then, i'll just say : that's not evidence.
> 
> personal accounts are not scientific enough to proclaim aliens have visited us.



I believe the term " pics or it didn't happen" applies here.


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## Nick259 (May 6, 2011)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> The questions is about other living lifeforms............
> 
> Sunk in yet...............
> 
> The answer is an unequivocal yes.  We've found bacteria in asteroids and bacterial fossils on other planets.  The real question (as others have already pointed out) is intelligent lifeforms.  I remain skeptical, and think our first encounter will give us the answer and expand the dishes in the cannibal's cookbook.  I wonder if they'll like how we taste, or just remove us through teraforming and manual termination?



Do you have any evidence for this? It would appear that these claims turned out to be false using a quick google search.

I agree that the possibility of life outside the solar system is high given that the amino acids that make us up are easily synthesised and have been found on meteors. Given that the universe is so vast I find it near impossible that life has not developed elsewhere.


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## FordGT90Concept (May 6, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> I believe the term " pics or it didn't happen" applies here.


Google "1971 Delphos, Kansas" and knock yourself out.  Specifically, pictures are on this page: http://www.ufocasebook.com/Kansas.html

That link I provided before had this one and many others that are, to this day, unexplained.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

FordGT90Concept said:


> Google "1971 Delphos, Kansas" and knock yourself out.  Specifically, pictures are on this page: http://www.ufocasebook.com/Kansas.html
> 
> That link I provided before had this one and many others that are, to this day, unexplained.



seriously, those pics are your proof?


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## Mr McC (May 6, 2011)

Given the sheer number of other suns that we can see with the naked eye, it would be egocentric and illogical to assume that there is no other life. However, we also need to question what we understand by life. Whilst we're on the subject of semantics, we also have to define what we mean by we, indeed, a better question might be whether or not we feel that "we" are ready to engage in any form of contact with these hypothetical others. Without wishing to offend anyone, God has often been interpreted as a cultural construct that has been employed (or abused) for a number of purposes - "if God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him" - particularly as a means of imposing rules, societal norms and established hierarchies, or, as others put it, religion. Similarly, it is often jokingly suggested that we need an alien invasion in order achieve global peace. However, I do believe that if we lived our lives with greater consideration for the prospect of other life, of other eyes watching and judging the manner in which we behave towards one another and our environment, we would be much nicer people. All the more reason to believe in our friends in flying saucers.

Incidentally, did TPU suddenly become a philosophy forum?


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## hat (May 6, 2011)

I think it would be quite silly to assume that there is no life outside of our planet. There are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and billions of galaxies besides ours each with more billions of stars. I'm sure somewhere out there something else exists. I also think that if they are capable of reaching us, they're far superior to our race. Hopefully they don't bomb us into oblivion as I suspect we deserve.


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## SaiZo (May 6, 2011)

We have not explored the entire ocean as yet, even there is more life to be found. I think same thing goes for other planetary systems aswell.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> seriously, those pics are your proof?



I thought the same, seen stuff like around where I live, I'm fairly sure it's just something like fairy rings.








naturally occurring but looks like it's been designed.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (May 6, 2011)

I've seen just about every bit of evidence offered up as proof and countless personal accounts by often mistaken witnesses. Most of it I'm not that impressed by. The one thing that gets me is sustained encounters with witnesses backed up by radar data. Mainly that radar bit at the end. Huge or numerous solid objects moving beyond human craft capabilities. Unless people are going to come out and say all radar accounts are fudged or faulty, just by chance coinciding with eyewitnesses, then I'm left to believe there's something interesting happening.


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## D007 (May 6, 2011)

IMO to think that we are alone displays a huge amount of ignorance as to how big the universe really is.. 
We are here: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/milkyway.html 
The universe is here: http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/pr2011004b/
Keep in mind all of those are galaxies, not stars in the second pic.
We're one tiny spec in one tiny galaxy..
Of course there is life and imo absolutely intelligent life. We're a young universe. Likely civilizations out there that have had a billion years to advance. While we've only had a couple hundred thousand years.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

if we were talking about whether taco bell has real meat, i'd be much less likely to require proof.
that's not all that important to me, and doesn't affect humanity as a whole.

but we are talking about alien life visiting our planet.  think about that.  that's not something you should
simply believe without the utmost quality and quantity of proof.  that is a BIG deal and therefore requires
BIG evidence. saying there are radar accounts that match human reports, is still not enough.  

say all of them are forged? how many? where can i see them?

i recognize that the idea is relegated to fringe science, and therefore makes it hard for ANY "evidence" 
to be taken seriously.  but if there were something concrete, it'd be easy. until 
there is, i simply can't say any more than "it's possible, but unlikely"

and for those that didn't read my previous posts, i'm talking about aliens visiting earth specifically.
as to the existence of alien life, i don't see how it could possibly not exist. still, don't know for sure.

can't.


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## Champ (May 6, 2011)

the fact that I believe other planets like our have been found, sure prove there should be other life in the distant stars.  I don't know if its upright and walking, crawling or swimming, but something else has to be out there.


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## WhiteLotus (May 6, 2011)

It would be kind of arrogant to assume that an alien race with technology so superior to ours that they can fly through space and not die on the way here, would take the time out to visit us. A race that in comparison would look like cockroaches to us.

Though yes they exist, no they haven't visited us yet.


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## lilhasselhoffer (May 6, 2011)

Nick259 said:


> Do you have any evidence for this? It would appear that these claims turned out to be false using a quick google search.
> 
> I agree that the possibility of life outside the solar system is high given that the amino acids that make us up are easily synthesised and have been found on meteors. Given that the universe is so vast I find it near impossible that life has not developed elsewhere.



From the lips of NASA itself:http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/marslife.html

Again, simple bacteria.  Nothing exceptionally complex (assuming the average hydra is a complex organism), but life none the less.


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## Evolved (May 6, 2011)

afw said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4iz...&feature=share



Seen this a while back. Everybody needs to watch this.

Although, there's a lot of ways to DISMISS the frantic PHONE CALL near the end of the video.
I've been led to believe that the PHONE CALL was FAKE, according to research I have done.

HOWEVER, the SIGHTINGS are most DEFINITELY REAL.

And when these ALIENS finally appear to us, FULLY, we are probably doomed, to be honest.
But hey, maybe humanity has a chance, but I doubt it.

Here's another video that coincides with WHY the Aliens are here, and what the world leaders (preferably the United States) intend to do with them (and yes I said, WITH them).

PART 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjjIy1DO0gs
PART 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL2vnxVIH_0

I think there's a PART 3, but I'm not sure. Please, watch these videos and be AWARE of what is going on. There's a REASON why Aliens are here.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

this is not a conspiracy forum , that is not science.

the eery music alone tells you the intention of the 
video.  it is not trying to find the truth, it is trying
to freak people out and press a view.  not science.


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## Vancha (May 6, 2011)

D007 said:


> IMO to think that we are alone displays a huge amount of ignorance as to how big the universe really is..
> We are here: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/milkyway.html
> The universe is here: http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/pr2011004b/
> Keep in mind all of those are galaxies, not stars in the second pic.
> ...


How can you say any of that without knowing the chance of life to start, the chance of life to evolve long enough to reach intelligence and the chance of it then doing so?

The universe could be a trillion times as large as it is, and if the chance of the three things I mentioned was small enough, it could still be practically certain that there was no intelligent life besides us.

To think we are alone isn't ignorant, it's just premature...And the same applies to those who think we aren't. The default position would seem to be an assumption we're alone until either evidence suggests otherwise, or we somehow work out the chances of intelligent life existing.


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## Benetanegia (May 6, 2011)

I think that with the sheer ammount of stars capable to sustain life as we know it and the fact that biomolecular science already came to the conclusion that the formation of life from non-living molecules is probabilisticaly common if given enough time, I think it's pretty much proven that life outside our planet exists. And based on a similar probabilistical approach, if sentient life in the universe exists in the same proportion as in Earth (or even if it's off by several order of magnitudes), intelligent alien races exist and are quite abundant indeed. They gave numbers and they appear to be between 10000 and 10 million intelligent alien races, with at least half of them being technologically better than us. The numbers for non intelligent life are billions of times higher.

But even then, the same studies believe that those races will never come in touch with others, because the average distance between them would require several millions of years of light speed travel and nothing seems to suggest that FTL speeds are posible for people or objects, only sub-particles could do that. 

And it doesn't end there, they even covered up themselves saying that even if FTL is posible, and some alien races have it, spotting us would still need direct contact with light reflected by Earth or our own electro-magnetical waves reaching their detection tools for them to notice us. Applying FTL detection on an infinite universe just would not be viable. So if there is indeed an alien race out there capable of travelling FTL and wanting to know us in particular - think about it, out of 10 million possible races they want to meet us- we can still take a seat and wait because it's not until 200++ years that they will notice our existence.


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## cbupdd (May 6, 2011)

Drake equation






At least 10 detectable civs, haha. Our first radio signal was over 200 years ago, but probably no one will receive it.

Time and space are the key. It's really improbable that any civilization will coincide. What we could expect now is to find micro organisms on mars or europe. Although, our solar sistem had 3 planets (mars, venus, earth) candidates of substaining life . Only earth made it.


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## Yukikaze (May 6, 2011)

I do think there is life out there. It might even be intelligent. I do think, however, that it would be so radically different from our own that we might not even know that it is life even if we were to see it (which is not very likely in the first place), or recognize its intelligence if it were intelligent (and vice versa: Them recognizing us). To assume that existing aliens think like us, are driven by similar motives, communicate and experience life in similar fashions to us is just too far fetched given the insane amount of variables which shape the evolution of a species.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

Yukikaze said:


> I do think there is life out there. It might even be intelligent. I do think, however, that it would be so radically different from our own that we might not even know that it is life even if we were to see it (which is not very likely in the first place), or recognize its intelligence if it were intelligent (and vice versa). To assume that aliens think like us, are driven by similar motives, communicate and experience life in similar fashions to us is just too far fetched.



i disagree. not that some life will be far outside our expectations , but i disagree
that most life would necessarily be.  look at all the varied life we are able to understand
on our own planet?  why could we not extend that outward?

even without dna, which is possibly but again not necessarily the case - i think most
life will have a physical form with a thinking apparatus of some sort.  likely a feeding
and excreting one as well.

just saying, i don't think it's that unlikely that alien life could be recognizable to us.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> look at all the varied life we are able to understand
> on our own planet?  why could we not extend that outward?



Whilst it's likely that other life is carbon based, it may not be.

And if it's not. Then well, that's where the spanner in the works comes from


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## Benetanegia (May 6, 2011)

cbupdd said:


> Drake equation
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/5/4/7542df32dfc58eede34c27326fb44889.png
> 
> ...



Yep I think it's that equation they used in the article and came up to the numbers I gave, or numbers that were similar. However I think the equation is very prone to interpretation, so you can end up with very distinct results.



> Although, our solar sistem had 3 planets (mars, venus, earth) candidates of substaining life . Only earth made it.



And maybe mars, or europe that's something that cannot be ruled out yet. Also considering the age of our star and when advanced life was created on earth it would be posible that some life (up to small pluricellular) appeared on mars and then dissapeared, the time taking away any evidence. Or that's what I think. Also when the sun finishes off with hydrogen and thus spands it's radius, killing our planet in the procces, maybe some other planet will take the place as viable for life... that's something I have never seen answered, but I think it seems reasonable.

And the sun is a very young star that will also die fast. There's stars that will last tens or hundreds of times more, allowing for greater chances to sustain life.



digibucc said:


> i disagree. not that some life will be far outside our expectations , but i disagree
> that most life would necessarily be.  look at all the varied life we are able to understand
> on our own planet?  why could we not extend that outward?
> 
> ...



Have you read Ender Wiggin saga? (you should, at least the first 2 ones). They cover the subject pretty well.


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## Yukikaze (May 6, 2011)

digibucc said:


> i disagree. not that some life will be far outside our expectations , but i disagree
> that most life would necessarily be.  look at all the varied life we are able to understand
> on our own planet?  why could we not extend that outward?
> 
> ...



Why is there a need to feed in the sense you are familiar with? Plants thrive without feeding in the human sense. A thinking apparatus is likely to be there, but why the assumption that it would work in any fashion similar to our own? A hive mind concept comes to mind and that's something humans can understand to an extent. How many other concepts of intelligence are possible beyond our realm of understanding?

I'm just saying that the variables are so numerous and of such importance (A tiny deviation in the gravitational pull, atmospheric mix, if any, or the amount of energy received by a planet can affect an evolution of a species by incredible amounts. After all, we are talking millenia of evolution in entirely different places) that the assumption of being able to communicate, understand or even recognize each other is far from trivial.

We tend to "humanize" our concept of aliens and apply to them concepts from our daily lives, our history and our fiction, but there is nothing to indicate that if aliens exist they would fit any of those concepts.


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## pantherx12 (May 6, 2011)

Not sure how up to date this is, but I believe Mars either has no iron/nickel core ( or if it has, no where near as big as ours) so it didn't  have the protective magnetic barrier we have around our planet.

So solar winds striped away it's atmosphere/water/life etc.

( hence nothing there)

Venus I don't believe ever had a chance, it was pretty much doomed to get toasty hot from the get go.


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> Whilst it's likely that other life is carbon based, it may not be.
> 
> And if it's not. Then well, that's where the spanner in the works comes from



well sure, they'd be different'  just don't underestimate the human
ability to adapt and understand. we are pretty good at it.

did most people think 1000 (oops) years ago that it would be possible to accurately
predict the relationship of planets between each other, and how space time and
gravity are inter-related?  could most people even conceive of how an idea
like that might look?

they can be radically different, sure.  but i just believe we can rise to the challenge.

if not at this exact point is time, down the line at least



Yukikaze said:


> Why is there a need ... to "humanize" our concept of aliens



you are entirely pressing my point, by using examples of life on earth. read my post.

i did not say it would resemble us, i said we could be capable of recognizing and understanding it.

edit: communication, not necessarily.


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## A Cheese Danish (May 6, 2011)

Benetanegia said:


> And maybe mars, or europe that's something that cannot be ruled out yet. Also considering the age of our star and when advanced life was created on earth it would be posible that some life (up to small pluricellular) appeared on mars and then dissapeared, the time taking away any evidence. Or that's what I think. Also when the sun finishes off with hydrogen and thus spands it's radius, killing our planet in the procces, maybe some other planet will take the place as viable for life... that's something I have never seen answered, but I think it seems reasonable.
> 
> And the sun is a very young star that will also die fast. There's stars that will last tens or hundreds of times more, allowing for greater chances to sustain life.



I see "europe" and keep thinking the continent  It just occurred to me that ya'll mean Europa.

And planets that have the ability to support life (and possibly our life) have been found. There are other "earth-like" planets out there.
The only problem is getting to them.


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## Benetanegia (May 6, 2011)

A Cheese Danish said:


> I see "europe" and keep thinking the continent  It just occurred to me that ya'll mean Europa.
> 
> And planets that have the ability to support life (and possibly our life) have been found. There are other "earth-like" planets out there.
> The only problem is getting to them.



lol yeah Europa.  
Since Europa == Europe in spanish, and I'm a spaniard talking in english, well you know...


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## digibucc (May 6, 2011)

Benetanegia said:


> lol yeah Europa.
> Since Europa == Europe in spanish, and I'm a spaniard talking in english, well you know...



yeah when you spelled it the same i figured it was a language thing, i had to double-take the first time too... i'm like, life on mars and europe? was that a joke?


----------



## CDdude55 (May 6, 2011)

It's tough to say, space is vast so it wouldn't make much sense to rule out the possibility of  life elsewhere.


----------



## mlee49 (May 6, 2011)

Physics say there are an infinite number of parallel worlds, thus an infinite number of possibilities where other life exists.


----------



## Tatty_One (May 6, 2011)

I am alone, the wife is a Nurse and on a late shift tonight   On topic however, probabilities being what they are, it is highly unlikely that we could be on our own in an infinate Universe.


----------



## HossHuge (May 6, 2011)

Europa is such an intriguing place.  If asked I would support (financially) a mission there.


----------



## MxPhenom 216 (May 6, 2011)

right now in my physics class we are learning about the universe. And now that we are able to see so much further out into observable space we are able to see more and more galaxies that are just like our spiral milkyway galaxy. At the beginning of the histroy of astronomy and observing it we really didnt realize what galazies were out there. Get this, "There are as many galaxies in the observable universe as there are grains of sand on every beach on earth." With knowing that, I believe that life on earth isnt the only life out there. Since every sprial galazy we see is similar to ours thinking that our little planet we called earth with an atmosphere, thinking that "life" can only be found here is probably not so. Even saturn since it has about 50-60 moons all around it, astronomers have been studing it for quite some time(cant remember the name of it) but it seems from pictures and what they are saying about could infact have life. Intelligent life? Probalby not, but LIFE maybe. Also as technology gets better we could at some point come in contact with radio waves from life far out in other galaxies. Time will tell.

Theres a little astronomy lesson for you guys today. Enjoy


----------



## Mr McC (May 6, 2011)

HossHuge said:


> Europa is such an intriguing place.  If asked I would support (financially) a mission there.



We're leaving tomorrow, send the cash now.


----------



## garyinhere (May 6, 2011)

mlee49 said:


> A question that has plagued humanity since the dawn of self awareness.
> 
> Do you believe in other living life forms? Are they microscopic? Are they intelligent? Are they blobs of jello?



I believe that life (evolved or inspired) seeks out the most efficient form of being. Kinda like how nature abhors a vacuum, life needs to be as efficient as possible. I think "living things" on planets is purely a fluke. So life in essence is a thing that needs to transfer energy from something else to benefit it's own self. Wouldn't you think that the infinite amount of stars could sustain microscopic organisms feeding off it's energy bypassing any "X" factors. As for intelligent life forms, our ego is what drives us to congratulate our intelligence. As we cure sickness and put men into space and battle the atom, we still bury our trash and shit in a hole.


----------



## Kreij (May 7, 2011)

nvidiaintelftw said:


> right now in my physics class we are learning about the universe. (snip)
> Get this, "There are as many galaxies in the observable universe as there are grains of sand on every beach on earth."



Can you direct me to a link which shows how this comparison was tabulated and how its accuracy was determined?  
That statement is pure hyperbole.

Until there is substantiated proof of other sentient life in this universe, I'll just stick with, "we are alone."
We have more important things to deal here on earth at the moment.


----------



## FordGT90Concept (May 7, 2011)

Kreij, read through this:
http://ufos.about.com/od/physicalproofcases/UFO_Cases_with_Physical_Proof.htm

It lists all the cases (with brief summaries) where the encounter left physical proof (including damage to train engines hitting a UFO, damage to police cars hitting a UFO, rings left in the ground after an encounter, broken living tree limbs, etc.).  Virtually all of them are unexplained by anything "natural."


----------



## Bow (May 7, 2011)

Yukikaze said:


> Why is there a need to feed in the sense you are familiar with? Plants thrive without feeding in the human sense. A thinking apparatus is likely to be there, but why the assumption that it would work in any fashion similar to our own? A hive mind concept comes to mind and that's something humans can understand to an extent. How many other concepts of intelligence are possible beyond our realm of understanding?
> 
> I'm just saying that the variables are so numerous and of such importance (A tiny deviation in the gravitational pull, atmospheric mix, if any, or the amount of energy received by a planet can affect an evolution of a species by incredible amounts. After all, we are talking millenia of evolution in entirely different places) that the assumption of being able to communicate, understand or even recognize each other is far from trivial.
> 
> We tend to "humanize" our concept of aliens and apply to them concepts from our daily lives, our history and our fiction, but there is nothing to indicate that if aliens exist they would fit any of those concepts.


----------



## kid41212003 (May 7, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Can you direct me to a link which shows how this comparison was tabulated and how its accuracy was determined?
> That statement is pure hyperbole.
> 
> Until there is substantiated proof of other sentient life in this universe, I'll just stick with, "we are alone."
> We have more important things to deal here on earth at the moment.



Until all planets have been searched and discovered, we can't just dismiss the possibility.

Ideas push human forward, so lets just be a bit imaginative.


----------



## Kreij (May 7, 2011)

Ford, I've read countless articles on reported UFO sightings and the experiences that people have had.
"Not natural" != "extraterrestrial".
I'm a sceptic at heart with most things extraordinary, so until an extraterrestrial spaceship lands in my driveway and the pilot and/or crew stops in to chat ... well I guess I'll just continue to not buy it.


----------



## KainXS (May 7, 2011)

Have Aliens come to earth well lets look at it.

Lets say your an alien, you come all the way here(why would you do that) and you come along this planet where there are intelligent? life forms, now you want to make contact, so you look at them for a while and see how they act, how they treat eachother, gauge their intelligence, In the case of we humans, what would you do after seeing how they have acted for a while.

The problem with checking all the planets is that that Idea is so far off by the time its possible we probably won't need to do it anymore, we can get a man on the moon probably on mars and thats it beyond that are gas giants and the other inner planets which have no chance, in the case of moons it broadens but still its far off because we won't be going far enough to do that for many many many years. Mars is the Best bet we have in a long time.


----------



## Kreij (May 7, 2011)

Here's a little on-topic humor ...

An alien spaceship lands in Kreij's driveway ...
Alien : I am from the plantet Aghdfihl
Kreij : Did you bring beer?
Alien : What is beer?
Kreij : Nevermind, how long did it take you to get here?
Alien : To be honest, we hit a wormhole 1.6 million kicks out and have no idea where we are.
Kreij : So you are new to space travel?
Alien : Pretty much, can you people of earth show us the way back?
Kreij : Not unless it's on google maps.
Alien : Shit, what's this beer?
Kreij : Shut off your ride and I'll show you. Give me the keys though, No drinking and driving. 

 ... a few beers later ...

Alien : (Hic) Screw the wormhole this planet rocks.
Kreij : You buy the next 30 pack.
Alien : We have no earth money, but we have a holodeck!
Kreij : Beer's on me, boys ...

There may be other sentient life in the universe ...


----------



## mlee49 (May 7, 2011)

nvidiaintelftw said:


> right now in my physics class we are learning about the universe. And now that we are able to see so much further out into observable space we are able to see more and more galaxies that are just like our spiral milkyway galaxy. At the beginning of the histroy of astronomy and observing it we really didnt realize what galazies were out there. Get this, "There are as many galaxies in the observable universe as there are grains of sand on every beach on earth." With knowing that, I believe that life on earth isnt the only life out there. Since every sprial galazy we see is similar to ours thinking that our little planet we called earth with an atmosphere, thinking that "life" can only be found here is probably not so. Even saturn since it has about 50-60 moons all around it, astronomers have been studing it for quite some time(cant remember the name of it) but it seems from pictures and what they are saying about could infact have life. Intelligent life? Probalby not, but LIFE maybe. Also as technology gets better we could at some point come in contact with radio waves from life far out in other galaxies. Time will tell.
> 
> Theres a little astronomy lesson for you guys today. Enjoy



I'm gonna build on this.

Think about the millions of galaxies with billions of planets out there.

Think about the thousands of species of Life on this ONE planet.

New species are still found every year, most of the oceans are not fully explored.

It seems there is so much intelligent life on this one planet it would be absurd to think its not at the very least possible for other life to exist.


----------



## KainXS (May 7, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Here's a little on-topic humor ...
> 
> An alien spaceship lands in Kreij's driveway ...
> Alien : I am from the plantet Aghdfihl
> ...



that alien takes the beer back to his planet and his whole planet gets destroyed by wars over beer . . . .


----------



## theJesus (May 7, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Here's a little on-topic humor ...
> 
> An alien spaceship lands in Kreij's driveway ...
> Alien : I am from the plantet Aghdfihl
> ...


I think the alien would react more like "You call _that_ intoxicating?  Try some of _this_."


----------



## HossHuge (May 7, 2011)

nvidiaintelftw said:


> "There are as many galaxies in the observable universe as there are grains of sand on every beach on earth."



"There are as many *stars* in the observable universe as there are grains of sand on every beach on earth." 

Corrected.


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## GENTLEMEN (May 7, 2011)

I'd say there is definitely life (depending on how we define life) outside our planet. Why?
1. The Earth is just 1 planet. There are at least a few billion other planets (or moons) within this universe.
2. We've haven't even fully explored our own planet (oceans to be exact) so we can't say for sure that we know ALL the species on our own planet.
3. Our (the general) view of extraterrestrial life is more humanoid, and sometimes bacteria. And, who's to say if alien life can/can't adapt to our planet's atmosphere, etc.
4. The farthest we've reached (physically) outside the earth is the moon (not counting the other space probes -or whatever they're called).


----------



## pantherx12 (May 7, 2011)

Regarding new species on earth, apparently you can just sit in your garden and your fairly likely to spot something new ( or a new variation of something old) 

I've seen some insects in the past that I now know arnt recorded species in this country. Shame at the time it was just a scary looking thing that I didn't want near my BBQ ribs.

Try it some time, get amongst the undergrowth


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## Bo$$ (May 7, 2011)

100% chance of aliens, questionable chance of intelligence or ever finding them


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## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (May 7, 2011)

Bo$$ said:


> 100% chance of aliens, questionable chance of intelligence or ever finding them



definately true, since billions of stars are out there, but it would take a very long time, even at relativistic speeds, to reach them


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## TheoneandonlyMrK (May 7, 2011)

back in the day i saw what could only have been aliens having a brew in a motorway service station after a rave, they seemed peacefull


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## Jaffakeik (May 7, 2011)

I believe in outer space aliens or whatever they calls,but they are definetly not liek in the movies green and big eyes.Its just a producer imagination.


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## Jack Doph (May 7, 2011)

Who says it's not us that are alien?


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## Jaffakeik (May 7, 2011)

because we cant say to ourselves that we ar ealiens it would be inhuman


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## Jack Doph (May 7, 2011)

Arciks said:


> because we cant say to ourselves that we ar ealiens it would be inhuman



Perhaps.
I was simply implying the logic of the statement "I think, therefore I am".
Can you guarantee or even prove that "we are"?
Our existence in what we know, is merely conjecture at best, to those that know us not 

/philosophy


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## Jaffakeik (May 7, 2011)

i dont care about philosophy because i think its peace of crap, like GOD is crap aswell I cant trust to things I dont see.
And i will say i havent seen aliens aswell but i think its more realistic than GOd itself.


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## Jack Doph (May 7, 2011)

Arciks said:


> i dont care about philosophy because i think its peace of crap, like GOD is crap aswell I cant trust to things I dont see.
> And i will say i havent seen aliens aswell but i think its more realistic than GOd itself.



So.. why are you partaking a poser of mere proposal, when such realities have not been either proven or disproven beyond any reasonable doubt?
I dare say you're philosophising out of sheer curiosity, though partaking of same nonetheless 

One's opinions are of great value - whether correct or not. Any input relevant to the subject at hand, is input welcomed, as this broadens the horizon of thinking to one and all 
You don't have to agree - but anything said, is source for further investigation. It's how us humans learn and advance


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## Jaffakeik (May 7, 2011)

i wont make any argues with anyone because anyone got they own brains and can think what he wants .I am thinking like i will, and you like you will and thats fine for me.


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## Jack Doph (May 7, 2011)

My point exactly


----------



## Velvet Wafer (May 7, 2011)

In the time, of the existence of Earth, there were 22 intelligent Species, that visited this Planet. Star Trek was an underestimation how crazy its up there

God is not crap per se, he is just not an Entity, or Person.. or knows he exists himself... God is the smallest particle,much smaller than even quarks. Its THE material, which everything is constructed from. one particle with the most different forms you can imagine.

That what we often think, is God, is the manifestation of the Great Unity... the phenomal ethereal construct, of which each lifeform is a part, even if they wont recognize it. This Unity, can do...literally anything which is small enough (electrical signals work good, for example). a thought or wish, to be more exact, that a single person in this collective has, can manifest itself, into the real world, if the person concentrates enough. This can be anything from hate to love, to understanding.

Of course, you cant spawn physical things,like a car or so... but you can change quarks in the brains of other people, for example... which will make them do certain things according to what you wished. Tried it many times before, and its not a 100% chance to do that... but when youre good 75% are well within range. especially if the person is weakminded (or youre very strongminded).


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## digibucc (May 7, 2011)

do you guys know what 100% means?  if we are being honest with ourselves, and the
limits of our knowledge, you simply cannot say it is definite.  it's just plain false.

i mean, i have no doubt there is life out there - no doubt.  but 100% means that you know, 
and that there is no chance of it being false - and none of us can say that truthfully.  as much 
as you believe, there is no proof, therefore 100% is inaccurate at best, and rather simply untrue.

as far as philosophy - which i enjoy greatly - i think therefore i am, and "are we alien" ...
i don't see those being one and the same. one is seeking proof of existence, the other
is using semantics to make a senseless statement seem heady.

philosophically speaking, the fact that we can question if we are, means we are.  we can't 
guarantee anything about our existence, except that we do exist, in one form or another.

as arciks alluded to, alien is a human, english language construct that describes life that is 
foreign to us and our planet.  even if we came from outer-space, that would not make us aliens.

@velvet, i have a hard time responding to you, as you make statements that sound factual but
cannot be proven.  not to say they are by default untrue - but you like others simply sound
positive that you are correct, without anything other than your opinions to back it up.

not saying i don't have my opinions, but in my mind facts are more important.



wolf said:


> we are the only... vs  has to be ... life out there.



why does it always have to be one or the other?  this is not something we have
a definite answer to, that is simply not possible at this point in time.


----------



## theJesus (May 7, 2011)

I am 100% sure that all the employees at the Mexican restaurant down the road are aliens.


----------



## wolf (May 7, 2011)

I believe that one would be naive to assume we are the only intelligent life in the universe, given the broad diversity of life on our planet alone, and the amount of possibilities we havent seen and probably cant even fathom yet...

With a universe so vast, and billions apon billions of solar systems, there has to be a shitload of life out there IMO.


----------



## Lionheart (May 7, 2011)

The universe is a giant brain of consciousness  derp!


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## Jack Doph (May 7, 2011)

digibucc said:


> do you guys know what 100% means?  if we are being honest with ourselves, and the
> limits of our knowledge, you simply cannot say it is definite.  it's just plain false.
> 
> as far as philosophy - which i enjoy greatly - i think therefore i am, and "are we alien" ...
> ...



Thus, you agree with my point, though you contradict your own statement by wanting to see proof.
Nothing can ever be proven, unless life, in and of itself, as a sentient being, can be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt.
There is no right and wrong here, as such - merely that we are who we are, because this is what we perceive ourselves to be.
This may be argued until the cows come home, but the point remains.
To prove life 'out there' (which surely must exist), we must first prove life exists here, outside our own perception of reality


----------



## digibucc (May 7, 2011)

Jack Doph said:


> Thus, you agree with my point, though you contradict your own statement by wanting to see proof.
> Nothing can ever be proven, unless life, in and of itself, as a sentient being, can be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt.
> There are no right and wrong here, as such - merely that we are who we are, because this is what we perceive ourselves to be.
> This may be argued until the cows come home, but the point remains.
> To prove life 'out there' (which surely must exist), we must first prove life exists here, outside our own perception of reality



your point is not hard to see, and my statement was again, philosophical in nature.
philosophy is a useful tool, but it is not our best chance at understanding the world.

philosophy is a personal thing, or at most shared between a small group of like-minded
people.  when you introduce it as you have, to a wide variety of people at different places
in life and thought, you are simply making a convoluted statement that means nothing.

i guess my point is, the philosophical and scientific worlds are separate, and if you give
philosophy the trust you give to science, you are bound to simply float away from reality, 
as philosophy is not provable, as you said yourself.  it may make you sound deep, but you
really aren't saying much of anything at this point.


----------



## freaksavior (May 7, 2011)

Not reading the 4 pages. Sue me. 

I am a believer in Creation and that there is one God who created us, but I also believe there is something else out there. 
God created humans, animals, and everything on earth, why stop there?


----------



## theJesus (May 7, 2011)

freaksavior said:


> Not reading the 4 pages. Sue me.
> 
> I am a believer in Creation and that there is one God who created us, but I also believe there is something else out there.
> God created humans, animals, and everything on earth, *why stop there?*


Because he/she/it was afraid their next creation might be even worse than us.


----------



## Jack Doph (May 7, 2011)

digibucc said:


> your point is not hard to see, and my statement was again, philosophical in nature.
> philosophy is a useful tool, but it is not our best chance at understanding the world.
> 
> philosophy is a personal thing, or at most shared between a small group of like-minded
> ...



Perhaps then, you've missed the point after all.
It's not about me making any kind of deep statements.
You're referring to facts, such as they are, yet offer none of your own in defense.
I offer no facts at all - in fact, I question the reality as we know it and how perceived facts might actually apply here.
 Point being: life 'out there' is sure to exist, but I cannot prove this beyond reasonable doubt.
Life here exists, but I cannot prove this beyond any reasonable doubt either. After all, my view of existence is unlikely to be identical to your view of the same. Who's to say either, or both, of us are correct?
How do you establish such a fact as being a true fact, when all you can rely on is another's opinion, which then dilutes the very view either, or both, of us might have?
People tend to view matters as being a fact, when it most resembles their own idea of being true. Anything beyond that, becomes questionable and arguable - even if it is true.

There can never be true facts - as you said yourself.
So.. the argument becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of redundancy.
Failure to investigate or argue the intrinsic value of matters in general, though, is the true tragedy and would most likely cause the loss of learning that has seen us humans advance so greatly compared to animal life.
So.. if life 'out there' exists, would they not also query the same matters, to whatever degree?
Or am I not making sense (hey, it's very late after all)?
XD


----------



## pantherx12 (May 7, 2011)

Jack Doph said:


> Point being: life 'out there' is sure to exist, but I cannot prove this beyond reasonable doubt.



Sure you can, look around.

Not sure if it's real? Doesn't matter, at the end of the day all that matters is your own perception of reality.


----------



## BinaryMage (May 7, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> Sure you can, look around.
> 
> Not sure if it's real? Doesn't matter, at the end of the day all that matters is your own perception of reality.



What reality? All you have is a perception of what you believe to be reality. Reality itself is only an idea; it can never exist.


----------



## pantherx12 (May 8, 2011)

BinaryMage said:


> What reality? All you have is a perception of what you believe to be reality. Reality itself is only an idea; it can never exist.



If your going to be like that, define existence in a world without reality. 

Or hell, the definition of existence already has it really, it's objective.

Thus the classic quote " I think therefore I am" 

It's as simple as that, I perceive that something is around me, that I am a human. It's my reality.

That's a good thing about real in the broad sense.




I started thinking about questions like this waaaay to early in my life.


----------



## Jack Doph (May 8, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> If your going to be like that, define existence in a world without reality.
> 
> Or hell, the definition of existence already has it really, it's objective.
> 
> ...



I hear ya.
Hence the reason I tend to stay away from these sorts of semi- or quasi-philosophical meanderings, intriguing as the may be.


----------



## BinaryMage (May 8, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> If your going to be like that, define existence in a world without reality.
> 
> Or hell, the definition of existence already has it really, it's objective.
> 
> ...



Wikipedia defines reality as "the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be." The entire definition of reality is that it is not someone's personal views; it is the true state of things. My point was that it's impossible to prove that anything is reality.


----------



## pantherx12 (May 8, 2011)

BinaryMage said:


> Wikipedia defines reality as "the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be." The entire definition of reality is that it is not someone's personal views; it is the true state of things. My point was that it's impossible to prove that anything is reality.



Wikipedia? Cmon man at least use something that is a bit more reliable.

The sentence you just quoted doesn't even make sense.


Look at the definition for exist. "Have objective reality or being

    - remains of these baths still exist on the south side of the Pantheon
    - there existed no organization to cope with espionage"


For something to be objective in the first instance it requires perception ( I.E a mind or computer etc) so "may be thought to be" falls down the pan, as processing what we experience is a thought.

So that makes everything not real. oh noes : [




Sorry if structure is a bit loose in this post, I'm not so great at converting thought to text.


----------



## wolf (May 8, 2011)

I just wanted to chime in and say that this thread is a cracking good read chaps, keep it up!

reminds me of oh-so-many talks just like this Ive already had with good (interesting) friends.


----------



## Kreij (May 8, 2011)

BinaryMage said:


> My point was that it's impossible to prove that anything is reality.


Sure you can.

Take a pointy stick pierce it through your foot. 
Did it _really_ hurt?
Did you _really_ bleed all over your mom's new white carpet?
Is your friend _really_ laughing hysterically at you?
Can you change your perception and make the _really_ stupid thing you just did go away?

No. 
Why? 
Reality got in the way.


----------



## digibucc (May 8, 2011)

i have a hard with the "reality is relative" idea.
not because it's difficult to grasp, it's actually really simple and easy.

but aside from making it's speaker sound deep, it does absolutely nothing.

ok guys, reality is relative, you can't prove it.  I guess that means we should
all just stop talking about pesky things like science and evidence then.

really though, what does it do other than attempt to end the conversation?
if we all were to agree with your statement, there would be nothing left to say.
that's why it's philosophy, and left to such.  as science it is unhelpful and even
harmful.  yes it has to be recognized but don't say it as though it is an important 
point.  if all this is fake, what's it matter?


----------



## kid41212003 (May 8, 2011)

Kreij said:


> Sure you can.
> 
> Take a pointy stick pierce it through your foot.
> Did it _really_ hurt?
> ...



Those are just brain signals, and we see what we want to see. Why crazy people are crazy? Because their reality and ours are different and because they see what we don't see.


----------



## BinaryMage (May 8, 2011)

pantherx12 said:


> Wikipedia? Cmon man at least use something that is a bit more reliable.
> 
> The sentence you just quoted doesn't even make sense.
> 
> ...



I think you just agreed with me. My point was that reality doesn't exist, or as you said, that nothing is real. 

And as for the Wikipedia thing, no source is perfectly reliable. A recent study showed that Wikipedia is nearly as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica.



Kreij said:


> Sure you can.
> 
> Take a pointy stick pierce it through your foot.
> Did it _really_ hurt?
> ...



All of that is easy to fake using technology. It's just brain signals. "Reality", by definition, cannot exist.


----------



## KainXS (May 8, 2011)

if theres no reality are kittens real, is the sky really blue, I guess its ok for me to go bang like 100 hookers down the road because I DON'T EXIST, How can i get the herpes or the aids if I don't exist

right.


----------



## Velvet Wafer (May 9, 2011)

KainXS said:


> if theres no reality are kittens real, is the sky really blue, I guess its ok for me to go bang like 100 hookers down the road because I DON'T EXIST, How can i get the herpes or the aids if I don't exist
> 
> right.



obviously, a few people in this thread have still not watched "the Matrix" 
after that film, only the very stubborn ones, that hate new ideas, are left, that think what they see is the whole reality


----------



## Jaffakeik (May 9, 2011)

I thought a lot about our alien friends or whatever they called.But in reality(in our reality we are alone in our outer space universe or whatever it calls).Olny exclusion would be we are thinking about it its because there are alternative realities where we are somehow linked and got those nasty thoughs about other life forms.But in reality we are just talking about ourselves.


----------



## Winston_008 (May 9, 2011)

Nope we aren't alone, there are spiritual beings, such as God, angels, demons and satan. All of which our natural eyes cannot normally see. As people have said before just because you cant see them doesn't mean they are not there.

Yes Iam a Christian btw


----------



## digibucc (May 9, 2011)

gee, thanks for that.

your engaging scientific insight is admirable.


----------



## Easy Rhino (May 9, 2011)

have you guys discussed Plato's 'allegory of the cave' as it pertains to life on other planets yet?


----------



## mlee49 (May 9, 2011)

Go back to your box wine Easy.


----------



## Velvet Wafer (May 9, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> have you guys discussed Plato's 'allegory of the cave' as it pertains to life on other planets yet?



thats actually one of my favorite philosophical stories... applies to rusty thinking in general, in my opinion


----------



## trickson (May 9, 2011)

I am alone , ever night I look up into the star filled sky and I keep wishing they would come take me away , Well I am still here and still Alone . If they are up there why not just revile yourselves ? They can't be scared or are they ?


----------



## stinger608 (May 9, 2011)

Is there really other intelligent life forms? That, as has already been pondered, is something that is wondered every day by many. 

My take on it: 

Is humanity so ignorant to think that we are so damn special in the universe that we could be the only living intelligent beings? I personally think not. We are a spec in the universe! 

Ask yourself this; where is the end of the universe? What is beyond the end? 

For the original question; are we alone? Hell no!


----------



## theJesus (May 9, 2011)

Easy Rhino said:


> have you guys discussed Plato's 'allegory of the cave' as it pertains to life on other planets yet?


Never heard of it, but this paragraph from the entry on wikipedia has me interested:

"In the dialogue, Socrates describes a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows. According to Socrates, the shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners."


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## Velvet Wafer (May 9, 2011)

trickson said:


> I am alone , ever night I look up into the star filled sky and I keep wishing they would come take me away , Well I am still here and still Alone . If they are up there why not just revile yourselves ? They can't be scared or are they ?



i suggest you read some books of David Icke, and listen to the words of Credo Mutwa... these Guys can surely tell a few interesting Stories


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## Easy Rhino (May 9, 2011)

the allegory of the cave hits on many points. 

first, you can't really discuss things like life on other planets from a scientific point of view when you dont have any evidence for it. sure, you can argue the statistical implausibility of there not being any intelligent life in the entire universe other than ours but that in fact is a mathematical argument and not one that proves intelligent life exists elsewhere. 

secondly, if intelligent life does exist outside of our planet will people accept it as a reality if not directly confronted. like the allegory of the cave, reality is simply what we are subjected to. sure, there is an objective truth but knowing it is a tricky act when you in fact are chained with your back to a wall and you consider shadows real beings.


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## Jaffakeik (May 9, 2011)

Winston_008 said:


> Nope we aren't alone, there are spiritual beings, such as God, angels, demons and satan. All of which our natural eyes cannot normally see. As people have said before just because you cant see them doesn't mean they are not there.
> 
> Yes Iam a Christian btw



I am christian aswell, but i dont believe in God.


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## TheLaughingMan (May 9, 2011)

Arciks said:


> I am christian aswell, but i dont believe in God.



Thats not possible.


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## AphexDreamer (May 9, 2011)

No, we are not alone.

Simple as that and I think there is little to no debate on the matter.


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## Funtoss (May 9, 2011)

i have no idea ... all i know is that MANKIND RULES!


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## Jaffakeik (May 9, 2011)

TheLaughingMan said:


> Thats not possible.



Why?i havent been in church since i was about 12years young.and i dont see the reason why should i.because when i see people oon the streets who advertising gods will, its just makes me,sick.because if there where god he didnt needed to be advertised.its just all about money in the end


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## AphexDreamer (May 9, 2011)

Arciks said:


> Why?i havent been in church since i was about 12years young.and i dont see the reason why should i.because when i see people oon the streets who advertising gods will, its just makes me,sick.because if there where god he didnt needed to be advertised.its just all about money in the end



No he is saying it isn't possible for you to be a Christian and not believe in God. 

Because part of being a Christian is you believe in God, actually thats kind of a big part lol.

So if you don't, you should seriously consider relabeling your Religion. Just sayin.


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## Jaffakeik (May 9, 2011)

It doesnt hurt for me to be christian,and not to believe in god.its just a way i am and dont need to change anything about it


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## WhiteLotus (May 9, 2011)

Arciks said:


> It doesnt hurt for me to be christian,and not to believe in god.its just a way i am and dont need to change anything about it



 Isn't that just a little strange?

So you are Christian for what purpose? Or were you just brought up that way and have decided to keep it?

On topic: Why would aliens visit us? We are a primitive species, with nothing to give them, yet for some reason they should visit us? Right...


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## wahdangun (May 9, 2011)

I think its really ignorant to assume that alien will have same "reality" as us, "reality" is just our view from our sense like eye, ear, nose etc. And did you know our communication is really in efficient even for inter planetary system. So i think its almost impossible for us to detect them using our earth sense.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 9, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> On topic: Why would aliens visit us? We are a primitive species, with nothing to give them, yet for some reason they should visit us? Right...



What about Resources, and working labor,in form of Slaves? 
An Alien lifeform would just need to infiltrate the top layer of society, to be able to keep us working for them, without us even knowing. 
Ooops! a look at our modern society told me that may not be far from reality...


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## Jaffakeik (May 9, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> Isn't that just a little strange?
> 
> So you are Christian for what purpose? Or were you just brought up that way and have decided to keep it?
> 
> On topic: Why would aliens visit us? We are a primitive species, with nothing to give them, yet for some reason they should visit us? Right...



I am christian on that purpose, that i was born christian if first place,and i did exams in church to get second holy name like it is in our country.but when i got older i started to understand that why should i believe in something that i dont see and wount see.and to argue about this is just stupid as you all know.no further comments about got.like one fearless warrior said.its my ninja way.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 9, 2011)

Arciks said:


> I am christian on that purpose, that i was born christian if first place,and i did exams in church to get second holy name like it is in our country.but when i got older i started to understand that why should i believe in something that i dont see and wount see.and to argue about this is just stupid as you all know.no further comments about got.like one fearless warrior said.its my ninja way.



Anglicans are a splinter faction of christianity, to be exact
(i was a baptized evangelian, until i converted from belief, to understanding)
According to what you say, youre a Deiist, like Neil Armstrong was.... you believe in something, that there is a plan about everything... but not an entity, like God is described as


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## HookeyStreet (May 13, 2011)

I think it's obvious that there is life on other planets.  I'm not sure if they have visited us because I think a lot of _UFO_ sightings are down to government testing.  I would like to believe that intelligent aliens_ did _crash in  Roswell all those years ago 

Now this will probably make you go .  But I believe in ghosts.  That our _spirits/energy_ lives on somehow.  But I don't believe in _God_!  Because we did not have a sole creator.


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> Why would aliens visit us?



ask why we would visit aliens, look at human history: to make sure they wont eat us further down the road or because they have something we want. acceptable bonus answer: to show the other aliens they better not mess with us


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## HookeyStreet (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> ask why we would visit aliens, look at human history: to make sure they wont eat us further down the road or because they have something we want. acceptable bonus answer: to show the other aliens they better not mess with us



Pretty much this!

If aliens can travel through space/time to visit us.  It's obvious they have tech far superior to us.............so we are probably f*cked


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## de.das.dude (May 13, 2011)

*YAY!!!!111!!! my thousandth POST!! Yipeeeeeeee!!!!!1!!1!1!11!*



HookeyStreet said:


> Pretty much this!
> 
> If aliens can travel through space/time to visit us.  It's obvious they have tech far superior to us.............so we are probably f*cked



not really. maybe they are perfect. maybe they dont know what is evil. and if they wanted to eat us, they would have done it a long time ago.


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> On topic: Why would aliens visit us? We are a primitive species, with nothing to give them, yet for some reason they should visit us? Right...



They tend to enjoy probing our anuses. It's like hunting animals, but more civilized.


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## theJesus (May 13, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> On topic: Why would aliens visit us? We are a primitive species, with nothing to give them, yet for some reason they should visit us? Right...


Why would humans want to visit an ant hill?  Usually to fry the ants with a magnifying glass.  Occasionally to study them too I guess.


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

HookeyStreet said:


> I think a lot of UFO sightings



everybody pretty much has an hd camera in his pocket that works anytime, anywhere .. where are the sightings now ?


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## H82LUZ73 (May 13, 2011)

theJesus said:


> I find it hard to be absolutely certain about whether there is or isn't life in such a vast universe that we haven't really been able to explore at all.  However, I think there is a much greater possibility of life than of no life.
> 
> 
> I think there is some merit to the ancient alien theory.  I definitely wouldn't dismiss it.



http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens

this what i have been watching,It does make you wonder.


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## AphexDreamer (May 13, 2011)

Michio Kaku once said. 

Like an ant walking across a highway, we too might be sitting in a vast intergalactic "internet" or transfer of information and not even be aware of it. 

He further suggested that the same way we break up our data into separate packets and send them across multiple wires only to be reassembled at the end, Aliens might be doing the same across a wide spectrum of frequencies.

And just as if you were to intercept one data packet from an otherwise complete file and would find it to be jargon/jibberish. We might be intercepting just one data packet via a single frequency from an otherwise very large spectrum of frequencies and thus hear nothing but static. 

We could very well be sitting in a vast network of Alien Communications and not even know it, simply because we lack the technology/knowledge.


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

AphexDreamer said:


> if you were to intercept one data packet from an otherwise complete file and would find it to be jargon/jibberish.



statistical analysis will quickly tell you if it's natural or not. basically what seti@home does

a galactic internet with latencies in the tens of thousands of years makes absolutely no sense


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> statistical analysis will quickly tell you if it's natural or not. basically what seti@home does
> 
> a galactic internet with latencies in the tens of thousands of years makes absolutely no sense



I heard Andromeda is hoarding IPv6 addresses. We shall soon run out of address space.


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> I heard Andromeda is hoarding IPv6 addresses. We shall soon run out of address space.



not until 2.5 million years which is how long any information would take from andromeda to reach us


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> not until 2.5 million years which is how long any information would take from andromeda to reach us



Quantum entanglement. How did the particle get there? The stargate. It's all so simple.


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## H82LUZ73 (May 13, 2011)

You guys need to watch the Aliens of Devastation,In that episode it talks about a theory that aliens manipulated are DNA and explains the God telling Noah to make the ark cause he was flooding mankind,I always question Christians saying GOD is love he loves us all,So why in the 1st book of the bible did he flood the earth.....Also why did God take Mosses away in glowing chariots .....


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> Quantum entanglement. How did the particle get there? The stargate. It's all so simple.



quantum entanglement can't do ftl information transfer.

it seems probable that the quantum number conserving effect of the stargate will release any entanglement

thought experiment on ftl: take a laserbeam, swipe it across the sky, at some distance its angular speed will exceed the speed of light


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> quantum entanglement can't do ftl information transfer.
> 
> it seems probable that the quantum number conserving effect of the stargate will release any entanglement
> 
> thought experiment on ftl: take a laserbeam, swipe it across the sky, at some distance its angular speed will exceed the speed of light



You clearly are not a believer.


----------



## de.das.dude (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> quantum entanglement can't do ftl information transfer.
> 
> it seems probable that the quantum number conserving effect of the stargate will release any entanglement
> 
> *thought experiment on ftl: take a laserbeam, swipe it across the sky, at some distance its angular speed will exceed the speed of light*


*
*
no it wont. thats whats bad with light.
and angular speed what? the light is still travelling in a straight path. its just an illusion because we are moving the source.

if you throw a lazer at 30m/s then the light will still be at 3e8 m/s, not 3e8+3e1 m/s


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## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> quantum entanglement can't do ftl information transfer.
> 
> it seems probable that the quantum number conserving effect of the stargate will release any entanglement
> 
> thought experiment on ftl: take a laserbeam, swipe it across the sky, at some distance its angular speed will exceed the speed of light



true, but in fact, information cannot travel faster than light, since a light patch that sweeps across the sky contains no information, it cannot be defined as an entity and thus can exceed speed of light

For example, when the universe was in the inflationary phase, it expanded hundreds of times faster than light, but what is expanding is the vacuum between atoms, and it contains no information.

Souces: >4 years of casual science reading


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> true, but in fact, information cannot travel faster than light, since a light patch that sweeps across the sky contains no information, it cannot be defined as an entity and thus can exceed speed of light
> 
> For example, when the universe was in the inflationary phase, it expanded hundreds of times faster than light, but what is expanding is the vacuum between atoms, and it contains no information.
> 
> Souces: >4 years of casual science reading



What is your definition of information here? 

Also, it's ignorant to believe nothing can go faster than light in some way.We simply don't know of one. Many things we know now have been considered impossible in the past as well.


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## de.das.dude (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> What is your definition of information here?
> 
> Also, it's ignorant to believe nothing can go faster than light in some way.We simply don't know of one. Many things we know now have been considered impossible in the past as well.



but not the speed of light. the only way to surpass the speed of light is to fall into a wormhole, or any hole in space.


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> but not the speed of light. the only way to surpass the speed of light is to fall into a wormhole, or any hole in space.



So you claim that's the only way as if it were a fact even though nothing about wormholes has been proven? It's surprising how peoples views are still so limited. The fact that we have no working theory on which scientists agree to go past the speed of light doesn't mean it can't be done. We know nearly nothing about the universe or science. We've just started discovering things. If everyone had the lack of vision you have we'd never get anywhere. Luckily there are always people who believe in the impossible, those are the ones doing groundbreaking discoveries.


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## Lionheart (May 13, 2011)

It would be ignorant to believe we are alone in this vast mystery we call the universe

I see the universe as a giant brain of energy, learning and expanding from our experience's we call life

Here's a great quote from Bill Hicks.



> " Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream and where the imagination of ourselves"


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## digibucc (May 13, 2011)

Lionheart said:


> Here's a great quote from Bill Hicks.



and here's tom with the weather ...


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## Lionheart (May 13, 2011)

digibucc said:


> and here's tom with the weather ...





TY, that made my night


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## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> What is your definition of information here?
> 
> Also, it's ignorant to believe nothing can go faster than light in some way.We simply don't know of one. Many things we know now have been considered impossible in the past as well.



Information is something you could measure, it is whether or not you could tell that the object has travelled faster than light. We could say that the vacuum has traveled faster than light, but anyways you cannot know, so since vacuum contains no information, it is like saying "nothing" travels faster than light.

Traveling faster than light in conventionnal means is truly impossible according to theory. Proving it is possible may lead to major overhaul of todays theories, which have currently no problem for defining the universe as we know it. The only way the theory permits ftl travel is a shortcut, or bending the space so you would travel less distance than the ligt actually do, so you get ther faster


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## Lionheart (May 13, 2011)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> Information is something you could measure, it is whether or not you could tell that the object has travelled faster than light. We could say that the vacuum has traveled faster than light, but anyways you cannot know, so since vacuum contains no information, it is like saying "nothing" travels faster than light.
> 
> Traveling faster than light in conventionnal means is truly impossible according to theory. Proving it is possible may lead to major overhaul of todays theories, which have currently no problem for defining the universe as we know it. The only way the theory permits ftl travel is a shortcut, or bending the space so you would travel less distance than the ligt actually do, so you get ther faster



I love Canadians


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## streetfighter 2 (May 13, 2011)

mlee49 said:


> A question that has plagued humanity since the dawn of self awareness.
> 
> Do you believe in other living life forms? Are they microscopic? Are they intelligent? Are they blobs of jello?


I guess it all depends on how you solve the Drake Equation, which also depends largely on how you believe life originated (read abiogenesis).

Since we don't have a proven theory on the creation of life from inorganic materials my answer is quite astutely "dunno", aka "God did it". 



de.das.dude said:


> . . . the only way to surpass the speed of light is to fall into a wormhole, or any hole in space.


Traversing a wormhole doesn't literally make you go faster than the speed of light.  A wormhole is theoretical rip in space-time connecting two places.  I'm sure you've seen the rolled piece of paper punctured by a pencil illustrating the concept of a wormhole.

From wikipedia:
_Wormholes allow superluminal (faster-than-light) travel by ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded locally at any time._​
There are other ways to travel faster than light, without traveling faster than light locally and violating relativity.  One of them is to fly close to the event horizon of a black hole and zip around near the speed of light (roughly 0.9*c);  you'd quite literally be traveling back in time relative to less distorted space-time.

I've also read that the reason why we can't see beyond about 14 billion light years is because the expansion of the universe at that distance is greater than the speed of light.  In other words, the universe is traveling faster than light.  LOL WUT?

There is also the Alcubierre drive, and it still doesn't violate relativity.

Tachyons?  IIRC they violate super symmetry so they're not very popular amongst physicists today.

Quantum entanglement maybe?



DanTheBanjoman said:


> So you claim that's the only way as if it were a fact even though nothing about wormholes has been proven? It's surprising how peoples views are still so limited. The fact that we have no working theory on which scientists agree to go past the speed of light doesn't mean it can't be done. We know nearly nothing about the universe or science. We've just started discovering things. If everyone had the lack of vision you have we'd never get anywhere. Luckily there are always people who believe in the impossible, those are the ones doing groundbreaking discoveries.


I agree, Einstein was just another jerk in a line of jerks who couldn't think outside the box.  LOL WUT?

de.das.dude, like myself, is a student of the universe.  Are we not allowed to make mistakes in our quest for knowledge?


_We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct._
--*Niels Bohr*​


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## de.das.dude (May 13, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Traversing a wormhole doesn't literally make you go faster than the speed of light.  A wormhole is theoretical rip in space-time connecting two places.  I'm sure you've seen the rolled piece of paper punctured by a pencil illustrating the concept of a wormhole.
> 
> From wikipedia:
> _Wormholes allow superluminal (faster-than-light) travel by ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded locally at any time._​
> ...



i also think its because the universe is spherical and its because of the curvature. may also explain how wormholes may work, kinda like a tunnel through earth from herer to the US.


----------



## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> i also think its because the universe is spherical



all experimental evidence suggests that the universe is flat


----------



## cadaveca (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> all experimental evidence suggests that the universe is flat



But could that be due to conventional models preventing a different result?


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## niko084 (May 13, 2011)

I would say that depends on your definition of intelligent...
We sure like to think we are... But are we really?

I have a hard time believing life cannot exist anywhere else, from the evidence we can gather yes it doesn't look good... However... What kinda evidence can we really gather, not a lot when you really consider how much we even have access to % wise...


----------



## twicksisted (May 13, 2011)

I have too much going on in my day to day to be wondering/worrying about ET's to be honest but I do find it vaguely interesting of course.

Heres a Youtube clip showing various NASA footage of apparent UFO's around the ISS, Moon & Shuttle over the years. Also in the video is an interview with Dr Edgar Mitchell who was the pilot for the Apollo 14 mission who strongly believes in alien life aswell as having seen it for himself. His qualifications and career are impressive (read the youtube clips notes).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RPWhigpQg&feature=related


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## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> I agree, Einstein was just another jerk in a line of jerks who couldn't think outside the box.  LOL WUT?
> 
> de.das.dude, like myself, is a student of the universe.  Are we not allowed to make mistakes in our quest for knowledge?



Read my post again, what you just said made no sense in reply to my statement.


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

cadaveca said:


> But could that be due to conventional models preventing a different result?



i dont think so. the current measurements are 97% accurate, with planned measurements going up to 0.001%. however, this does not rule out a much bigger curved universe that is so big that we cant measure the curvature. think you're an ant standing on the earth, your local universe looks completely flat. but we can only go by experimental evidence, not some "it seems possible"



streetfighter 2 said:


> I guess it all depends on how you solve the Drake Equation,



in my opinion the most important term is L (the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space).

if it's normal that advanced civilizations blow themselves up in a nuclear war or destroy themselves using a micro black hole when they turn on their big particler accelerator or <insert random reason here>, then the chances become incredibly slim of us ever detecting one. its like blips fade into existance and fade out just as quickly and they never get a chance to talk to each other because they dont live long enough.

also our civilization is quickly moving away from radio signals to fibre optics which leaves nothing to detect


----------



## NinkobEi (May 13, 2011)

Radio signals seem to be a primitive way for species to communicate across a galaxy/universe. I suspect that a civilization may have 100-200 years as Radio being a good way, after that its likely they moved on to something else. 

Heck it took us forever to figure out that Gamma Ray Bursts exist, and they are the strongest radio waves in the Galaxy. How is a planet supposed to produce anything remotely similar to that


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

Ninkobwi said:


> How is a planet supposed to produce anything remotely similar to that



according to e=mc² it can't


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## de.das.dude (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> all experimental evidence suggests that the universe is flat



yes. and so did it suggest the earth was flat.

first of all, how is something flat supposed to expand properly? like rolling a dough?

and even it is flat, what shape is it? rectangular ? triangular? or organic irregular?

being spherical is the easiest and as its said, the simpler the solution, the more correct it is(or something like that).


----------



## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

de.das.dude said:


> yes. and so did it suggest the earth was flat.
> 
> first of all, how is something flat supposed to expand properly? like rolling a dough?
> 
> ...



It's a disc, and it sits on 4 elephants, who in turn stand on a giant turtle.


----------



## War_God (May 13, 2011)

This is the proverbial "more than it seems" question. It isn't as straightforward as it seems, and as such, no straightforward answer will do.
I'll give my 20 cents, despite no-one asking me to do so 

On one side of the fence we have the evolutionists. Life on Earth appeared from a proverbial soup, full of elements now on the periodic table, which allowed for life to begin as soon as a discharge of energy unbalanced things. Earth was just a lucky planet that turned out to be at the right place, at the right time, with exactly the right conditions to develop life. Quite a handful of convenient coincidences, right?

Which brings us to the creationist side of the table. We were all created by a supernatural, omnipresent and omnipotent being, that created us to it's own image. According to this train of thought, we human beings are the only living organisms in the galaxy, made in It's rightful image, with everything else being here just to accommodate us and keep things interesting.

So... this Is a hard subject.
Personally, I believe that we (human beings in general, not humanity, since humanity Doesn't exist) created God, Allah, or whatever we call them, just for the sake of giving ourselves some higher purpose. It really is depressing when you think that there is no reason for you being here other than spreading your genes, that there is actually no higher purpose in your life. God gives us the belief that we actually are important.

Then, there is the not-so-obscure idea of Panspermia (very succinctly, the idea that life on Earth only developed thanks to the arrival of an Extra-terrestrial bacteria or whatnot. This would make us all aliens to the planet Earth, therefore, the question "are we alone" - is answered on it's own.

Now, on to the real answer to the question, i'll just quote Carl Sagan:
"There are 10000 grains in a handful of beach sand. And there are more stars in the Universe than there are grains of sand in all the beaches in the world".
For me, there's just NO WAY that Earth was or is the only planet able to sustain life. And this gets even trickier when we consider that life in other planets doesn't even need to be carbon-based like ours - it could be hydrogen-based, hell, even silicon-based, why not?

Maybe on another planet there are animated motherboards all  to a super powerful biological, silicon-based microprocessor


----------



## streetfighter 2 (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> The fact that we have no working theory on which scientists agree to go past the speed of light doesn't mean it can't be done.


I was trying to say that... err... you know...  Einstein would disagree with you and all.  

It's a bit like hacking where the password would effectively take more time than exists in the universe to crack.  Fortunately, as it turns out it's fairly simple to hack the handshake protocol instead.  In other words, you can't travel faster than light, but there are ways to work around it.



W1zzard said:


> in my opinion the most important term is L (the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space).
> . . .
> our civilization is quickly moving away from radio signals to fibre optics which leaves nothing to detect


As I understand it, the radio broadcasts we've been sending out since WWII are completely drowned out by background radiation by the time they reach the edge of our solar system .  (In hindsight, it's kinda nice that Omicron Persei 8s first blip from us isn't Hitler )

Once you get to distances in excess of one light year you have to broadcast a directed signal in order to retain enough energy to be properly demodulated*.  You then need to wait however many years for your signal to be retrieved and then wait another bunch of years to get a reply.  I believe it's likely that any effective inter-solar/galactic communication system will utilize quantum mechanisms which are not dependent on relativistic physics.  Unfortunately I have no idea what such a mechanism might be.

*Obviously this is my personal speculation; uncited.



DanTheBanjoman said:


> It's a disc, and it sits on 4 elephants, who in turn stand on a giant turtle.


From wikipedia:
_A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"_​Possibly one of the funniest things I've ever heard.


----------



## wahdangun (May 13, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> What about Resources, and working labor,in form of Slaves?
> An Alien lifeform would just need to infiltrate the top layer of society, to be able to keep us working for them, without us even knowing.
> Ooops! a look at our modern society told me that may not be far from reality...



wait. Why they need to make us their slave? Or even use our resource? Its not like planet earth contain special matter that alien can't get in other planet, we need to throw away  that kind of thinking, our earth is not speciall.
Ok. Let assume that we have some special matter on earth(witch I doubt it) and came to earth to get it. But I can't get it, why they need to enslave us, if alien civilitation is so advance, I'm sure they can build some worker robot and just kill us all, after all we are to fragile, and robot will not turn against them.


----------



## AphexDreamer (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> statistical analysis will quickly tell you if it's natural or not. basically what seti@home does
> 
> a galactic internet with latencies in the tens of thousands of years makes absolutely no sense



I didn't say it, Michio Kaku did. So I can't expand in his defense. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8iEagHztg

However, his message is clear in that perhaps Alien Communications are taking place right under our noses and we our still as of yet, to primitive to know.


----------



## wahdangun (May 13, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> everybody pretty much has an hd camera in his pocket that works anytime, anywhere .. where are the sightings now ?



maybe because our earth technology can't "sense" it ? I mean we can only see a very limited light spectrum that our sun pouring at us,  and our other sense is very limited, and after the fact there are more matter that we can't sense like ghost particle, x-ray, etc there aven a matter that we can't detect with our most advance equipment like dark matter and dark energy.

but my reason why there are no alien visiting us is because we are not speciall after all, it will a waste of resource for them to just came to us, just for harvesting our resource and enslaving us.


----------



## Deleted member 3 (May 13, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> I was trying to say that... err... you know...  Einstein would disagree with you and all.


He doesn't, he's dead. And even then, even Einstein should be questioned. Everything should be questioned.



> It's a bit like hacking where the password would effectively take more time than exists in the universe to crack.  Fortunately, as it turns out it's fairly simple to hack the handshake protocol instead.  In other words, you can't travel faster than light, but there are ways to work around it.



Sure, but in the future we have computers fast enough to do it brute force in seconds. Same might go for faster than light travel, in the future we might have new knowledge and technology and the "facts" change. Ruling things out based on current knowledge is being narrow minded.


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## garyinhere (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> Sure, but in the future we have computers fast enough to do it brute force in seconds. Same might go for faster than light travel, in the future we might have new knowledge and technology and the "facts" change. Ruling things out based on current knowledge is being narrow minded.



"I know not with what weapons WW3 will be fought,but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones"- Albert Einstein

I'll be impressed with Technology when we no longer shit in holes and bury our trash


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## Lionheart (May 13, 2011)

wahdangun said:


> wait. Why they need to make us their slave? Or even use our resource? Its not like planet earth contain special matter that alien can't get in other planet, we need to throw away  that kind of thinking, our earth is not speciall.
> Ok. Let assume that we have some special matter on earth(witch I doubt it) and came to earth to get it. But I can't get it, why they need to enslave us, if alien civilitation is so advance, I'm sure they can build some worker robot and just kill us all, after all we are to fragile, and robot will not turn against them.



Your concentrating on physical things, think outside the box, like emotions, especially negative emotions like fear, maybe they feed off of it to empower themselves, who knows, and we do live in a negative fear based society:shadedshu


----------



## streetfighter 2 (May 13, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> He doesn't, he's dead.





streetfighter 2 said:


> Einstein *would* disagree with you and all.


I said he "would" and I have no doubt that he would if he were alive.  Please do not patronize me, I'm not trying to offend you and if I have it was unintentional and I apologize.


DanTheBanjoman said:


> Everything should be questioned.


Absolutely.  However, we need to question intelligently or we're just punching the wind.


DanTheBanjoman said:


> Sure, but in the future we have computers fast enough to do it brute force in seconds. Same might go for faster than light travel, in the future we might have new knowledge and technology and the "facts" change. Ruling things out based on current knowledge is being narrow minded.


The difference being that we are the ones making the key to be cracked.  We didn't make light speed, it's a physical constant.  I'm not saying that light speed can't be broken nor am I saying that a perpetual motion machine can't be built; only that both of them would be a disturbingly hefty leap in science and technology.


garyinhere said:


> I'll be impressed with Technology when we no longer shit in holes and bury our trash


We're getting there.  Maybe one day . . .


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## Velvet Wafer (May 13, 2011)

wahdangun said:


> wait. Why they need to make us their slave? Or even use our resource? Its not like planet earth contain special matter that alien can't get in other planet, we need to throw away  that kind of thinking, our earth is not speciall.
> Ok. Let assume that we have some special matter on earth(witch I doubt it) and came to earth to get it. But I can't get it, why they need to enslave us, if alien civilitation is so advance, I'm sure they can build some worker robot and just kill us all, after all we are to fragile, and robot will not turn against them.



That i admit, is out of my knowledge...Beeings so powerful could have needs far from our understanding...but with my limited human understanding, i would say:
maybe, just out of personal preferation? Robots cant worship you satisfyingly, if youre a superpotent, powerhungry, and dominative Species Also, the production of Robots, and the Service, is associated with cost, and the use of resources... Humans are a regenerative Resource,that can live of minorly important, also regenerative Resources, from the Look of a powerful Alien, i guess

If it came to the resources they want... what about Gold? It cant be made in noticeable quantities without IMMENSE amounts of Energy (i think a supernova with the mass of 8 standard suns is needed), and the abundance of Gold, is a lot higher in our Solar System, then it should be normal, in the Universe (from what i know)... think of a species which metabolism somehow needs certain gold salts, 
maybe due to a mutation,in order to function, and which cant regain the gold, from the excrements, maybe due to a form of biological transmutation.... 
they would even need the gold, in Order, to keep their Species alive


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## W1zzard (May 13, 2011)

wahdangun said:


> maybe because our earth technology can't "sense" it ? I mean we can only see a very limited light spectrum that our sun pouring at us, and our other sense is very limited, and after the fact there are more matter that we can't sense like ghost particle, x-ray, etc there aven a matter that we can't detect with our most advance equipment like dark matter and dark energy.



as far as i know we can detect all the particles (of the standard model) except for higgs and graviton for which we have experiments/planned

ghost particle == neutrino afaik for which we have experiments

nothing for dark matter and dark energy though


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## Kreij (May 13, 2011)

Lionheart said:


> Your concentrating on physical things, think outside the box, like emotions, especially negative emotions like fear, maybe they feed off of it to empower themselves, who knows, and we do live in a negative fear based society:shadedshu



As opposed to a positive fear based society? I'm confused by that statement.


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## BinaryMage (May 14, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> as far as i know we can detect all the particles (of the standard model) except for higgs and graviton for which we have experiments/planned
> 
> ghost particle == neutrino afaik for which we have experiments
> 
> nothing for dark matter and dark energy though



Dark energy/matter are just names created to explain why there is way more mass in the universe than what the amount of "real" matter would predict. They're less concrete ideas as just general names for whatever is creating that mass.


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## >>PhoeniX<< (May 14, 2011)

I believe that there are other life forms in the universe. But for a fact the human mind can not fathom the vastness of the universe so it can not imagine other life. Besides I think Aliens already made computers.. But they weren't that good XDDDD


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## Winston_008 (May 14, 2011)

H82LUZ73 said:


> You guys need to watch the Aliens of Devastation,In that episode it talks about a theory that aliens manipulated are DNA and explains the God telling Noah to make the ark cause he was flooding mankind*,I always question Christians saying GOD is love he loves us all,So why in the 1st book of the bible did he flood the earth*.....Also why did God take Mosses away in glowing chariots .....



The reason God flooded the earth was simple everyone except noah and his family had become completely evil by their own freewill, so God dealt with them as he saw appropriate.

my 2 cents


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## BinaryMage (May 14, 2011)

Winston_008 said:


> The reason God flooded the earth was simple everyone except noah and his family had become completely evil by their own freewill, so God dealt with them as he saw appropriate.
> 
> my 2 cents



I don't really want to get into religious debates, but I think any intelligent god would use a better method than killing everyone, which is not only evil in and of itself but also a waste of resources.


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## niko084 (May 14, 2011)

Actually quantum mechanics has a lot whom believe the universe being flat, yes as in 2 dimensional is the only way gravity can exist.

We are in incredibly theoretical fields here.

In the big picture of this, we have not the slightest clue, we can barely comprehend ourselves let alone everything else we don't have a clue even exists.


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## niko084 (May 14, 2011)

DanTheBanjoman said:


> He doesn't, he's dead. And even then, even Einstein should be questioned. Everything should be questioned.



Agreed!

Einstein was a very smart man but with only limited knowledge for his time.

In physics especially everything is considered true when all known evidence points to it being so. When an argument is found it will be re-addressed until that time it is true.

If we didn't handle the science that way it would be much harder to learn how things work simply because you have no basis to judge it on.


----------



## niko084 (May 14, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> ghost particle == neutrino afaik for which we have experiments



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_detector


----------



## Lionheart (May 14, 2011)

Kreij said:


> As opposed to a positive fear based society? I'm confused by that statement.



As am I by your comment


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## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (May 14, 2011)

niko084 said:


> Actually quantum mechanics has a lot whom believe the universe being flat, yes as in 2 dimensional is the only way gravity can exist.



Actually, flat means that the universe does not have any general space-time curvature, space-time being in the 4th dimension. So it doesnt mean that the whole universe is in 2 dimensions, its just "flat" in a sense between 3 and 4 dimensions just like a wrinkled piece of is between 2 and 3 dimensions


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## W1zzard (May 14, 2011)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> any general space-time curvature



how can we detect (non-local) time curvature ?


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## TheMailMan78 (May 14, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> all experimental evidence suggests that the universe is flat



And 300 years ago the Earth was flat. Until we can travel about 300 times the speed of light and get some distance between our studies and the Earth I don't buy much of any deep space experiment results from the surface of our planet.

Can a grain of sand tell how big the beach is by looking at the stars? The whole reason we built the hubble was to measure light OUT of our own atmosphere. I mean think about that. If our own atmosphere was bugging up the results what about the suns gravitational pull? Could it not be bending light also? Could the billions of stars and planets in between each measurement be messing with our results?

There are to many holes in todays science IMO. We need to get out there and see it ourselves. Oh and Einstein was right. Quantum physics is the new G-d. We know it works but we can't really prove it. I'm sorry but I call BS.


----------



## St.Alia-Of-The-Knife (May 14, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> how can we detect (non-local) time curvature ?



Very good question. I personnaly do not know, but it is written in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe

"Analysis of data from WMAP implies that on the scale to the surface of last scattering, the density parameter of the Universe is within about 2% of the value representing spatial flatness.[7]"

WMAP being the cosmological background radiation measured by satellite. So i guess it could be measured by comparing the background radiation with the current state of the universe. As we know, the background radiation is nearly the homogenous from all directions, this must be an evidence for the flatness of the universe


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## TheMailMan78 (May 14, 2011)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> Very good question. I personnaly do not know, but it is written in wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe
> 
> "Analysis of data from WMAP implies that on the scale to the surface of last scattering, the density parameter of the Universe is within about 2% of the value representing spatial flatness.[7]"
> ...



Thats a lot of assumptions being we just hardly left our own solar system.


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## streetfighter 2 (May 14, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Can a grain of sand tell how big the beach is by looking at the stars?


Probably not, but one could estimate it.


TheMailMan78 said:


> If our own atmosphere was bugging up the results what about the suns gravitational pull?


Relativity accounts for gravitational pulls in celestial observations.  The phenomenon is known as gravitational lensing.


TheMailMan78 said:


> There are to many holes in todays science IMO.


Great phrase; it's a good tag-line for the creationists.  If you found a hole, fix it and get a prize.  Every time we answer a question we end up with a million new unanswered questions, this is the nature of scientific discovery.

FYI, DARPA disagrees with Stephen Hawking's blackhole radiation.  They released a 500+ page mathematical refutation, which asserted that his underlying assumptions were flawed.  (I lost the source in one of my book repositories and I haven't been able to find it again.  It's free if you can find it on the nets.)


TheMailMan78 said:


> Oh and Einstein was right. Quantum physics is the new G-d.


I do not believe Einstein said anything to that effect, in fact the opposite is much truer.
_God does not play dice_ -- Einstein
Einstein and Bohr were mortal enemies.  He spent most of his later years trying to prove that the quantum universe was orderly, as opposed to the borderline insanity of the Copenhagen interpretation.


TheMailMan78 said:


> We know it works but we can't really prove it. I'm sorry but I call BS.


We're trying.  I'm sorry science doesn't advance faster but the more outlandish our claims, the more outlandish the experiments to prove them.

Anything you can't test experimentally is not science, it's philosophy.  Also can you "prove" to me that you exist?  You're probably just a figment of my imagination.


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## Widjaja (May 14, 2011)

I'm not going to get all technical with this.

If there are other beings out there in the galaxy which I do believe there are.

All I want them to be is friendly and super sexy.


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## Kreij (May 14, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Great phrase; it's a good tag-line for the creationists. If you found a hole, fix it and get a prize. Every time we answer a question we end up with a million new unanswered questions, this is the nature of scientific discovery.



I think what Mailman is trying to get across here is that the total sum of our scientific knowledge is inadequate to lay positive claim on any given theorem.
IMO, this is not necessarily the fault of the scientists, but of an over-zealous media to pump out over-blown stories of a potential scientific finding.

Should we keep searching? Definitely.
Will we find real answers? Who knows.
Is beer the nectar of the Gods? Yes.


----------



## WhiteLotus (May 14, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> as far as i know we can detect all the particles (of the standard model) except for higgs and graviton for which we have experiments/planned
> 
> ghost particle == neutrino afaik for which we have experiments
> 
> nothing for dark matter and dark energy though



There have been rumours the the LHC has found the higgs particle, just need to publish the information.


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## BinaryMage (May 14, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> There have been rumours the the LHC has found the higgs particle, just need to publish the information.



Yes, true, but there have been rumors basically forever. When the LHC was started many people thought it would create a black hole and destroy us all. Rumors don't mean much.


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## Kreij (May 14, 2011)

The Higgs-Boson particle? Pffft.
I have a drawer full of them and all they do is whine about how they are not appreciated even thought they don't do anything but whine.

Again more media attention than results.


----------



## streetfighter 2 (May 14, 2011)

WhiteLotus said:


> There have been rumours the the LHC has found the higgs particle, just need to publish the information.


CERN said if they did find it they wouldn't release the confirmation paper for around a year.  This is most likely to avoid the embarrassment of a false positive.  Nevertheless CERN doesn't have any sort of ultra confidentiality pact, so it's more than likely that the rumor mill will fill up a long time before a paper is released.

IIRC CERN also said that they'd be scanning the mass region of between 170GeV and 400GeV this year, which means that if the Higgs exists they're going to find it.  I believe the current prediction is that the Higgs occupies the mass region around 160-190GeV.


Kreij said:


> I think what Mailman is trying to get across here is that the total sum of our scientific knowledge is inadequate to lay positive claim on any given theorem.
> IMO, this is not necessarily the fault of the scientists, but of an over-zealous media to pump out over-blown stories of a potential scientific finding.


I can prove any number of theorems myself, so I guess you're using the non-mathematical definition of the word. 

The media is really just Michio Kaku.  I aint never heard shit like Michio says when I was in college.


Kreij said:


> Is beer the nectar of the Gods? Yes.


Really?  I better get to researching it--  Yummm . . . Yeungling is good.


Kreij said:


> The Higgs-Boson particle? Pffft.
> I have a drawer full of them and all they do is whine about how they are not appreciated even thought they don't do anything but whine.


So that's why you have enough spare coin to make contests on TPU?  You're just using your Higgs particles to make matter then sell it on the black matter market. 


Kreij said:


> Again more media attention than results.


It gets attention from the scientific media and nutjobs (like FOX).  I aint seen that shit on BBC, Newshour, ABC, CBS, etc..


----------



## TheMailMan78 (May 15, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Probably not, but one could estimate it.
> 
> Relativity accounts for gravitational pulls in celestial observations.  The phenomenon is known as gravitational lensing.
> 
> ...



No Einstein didn't say "Quantum physics is the new G-d." I did. My point was its the lastest flavor in scientific discovery and has yet to prove anything tangiable. Einstein called BS on it before I was born. I mean really the whole "cat in the box" theroy is stupid. And yeah I belive in G-d. But I also belive in divine creation. Meaning G-d is nature and how it evolves is his work. Take it how you want but I belive in scinece, evoloution and in G-d. Strange I know. I love new discoveries but today there seems to be more guessing going on then any real science. Thats kinda my point.

Now moving on, the gravational lens does not compensaite for mass or dark matter (Things that cannot be seen). So we have no REAL way of seeing how many times light bends before getting to our eyes. Its a guesstimate at best. I am not saying the brightest minds in the world are wrong. All I am saying is they are just guessing until we get out there with a ruler. Savvy?

I guess thats why I am in the Einstein "camp". Math FTW!


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## streetfighter 2 (May 15, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> My point was its the lastest flavor in scientific discovery and has yet to prove anything tangiable.


Things in the quantum world are not all that tangible.  Nevertheless I think the atomic bomb and the semiconductor industry would like a word with you.


> _I mean really the whole "cat in the box" theroy is stupid._


Schrodinger's cat?  It's a thought experiment similar to the Ladder paradox which is often used with relativity.  Schrodinger's cat is just a way of visualizing how the collapse of the wave function can effect the macroscopic world in relation to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.  Einstein was only calling BS because he believed strongly in a deterministic universe.


> _But I also belive in divine creation. Meaning G-d is nature and how it evolves is his work. Take it how you want but I belive in scinece, evoloution and in G-d. Strange I know._


Sounds perfectly reasonable and is well in tune with most of the people where I live.  Florida is often considered a different country though isn't it? 


> _Now moving on, the gravational lens does not compensaite for mass or dark matter (Things that cannot be seen). So we have no REAL way of seeing how many times light bends before getting to our eyes. Its a guesstimate at best. I am not saying the brightest minds in the world are wrong. All I am saying is they are just guessing until we get out there with a ruler. Savvy?_


We've gone as far as to map the presence of dark matter in the universe.  We are getting pretty good at figuring out what we're looking at.  I disagree with the use of "guesstimate" unless you're definition of "guesstimate" involves thousands of hours on HPCs and work done by countless scientists.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6235751.stm
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/347483/files/


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## TheMailMan78 (May 15, 2011)

streetfighter 2 said:


> Things in the quantum world are not all that tangible.  Nevertheless I think the atomic bomb and the semiconductor industry would like a word with you.
> 
> Schrodinger's cat?  It's a thought experiment similar to the Ladder paradox which is often used with relativity.  Schrodinger's cat is just a way of visualizing how the collapse of the wave function can effect the macroscopic world in relation to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.  Einstein was only calling BS because he believed strongly in a deterministic universe.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but to me things in the deterministic universe seem a lot more feasible. Sometimes it seems like Bohr was trolling on Einstein in his later years. Probably the only man alive that could.



> We've gone as far as to map the presence of dark matter in the universe.  We are getting pretty good at figuring out what we're looking at.



How do we know? We haven't been there yet  Thats my point. This is one of the main reasons I am a huge supporter of NASA. WE NEED to get out there. If we sit here and tinker with theory the whole point of the science will be a mute point IMO.



> I disagree with the use of "guesstimate" unless you're definition of "guesstimate" involves thousands of hours on HPCs and work done by countless scientists.


 Countless scientist that have based their theory off of controlled experiments on the earths surface. HPC's running data based off of those theories. Like I said. They are guessing. Good ones. But guesses none the less.

Look at weather for example. Thats a simple one. We (mankind in some form) have lived with the Earths weather for 6.5 million years. Studied it for thousands and yet with the most advanced HPC's in the world and the brightest minds working them we still cannot tell where a storm is going to go. Thats on our very own planet. Yet people want you to believe they can calculate all the variables in the UNIVERSE and tell whats going on millions of light years away? Sorry but this is why I call BS on a lot of this. We couldn't even plant a robot on Mars without crashing the damn thing. Yet we know how old Alpha Centauri is? A little common sense goes a long way.



> Things in the quantum world are not all that tangible.


 Not tangible in a physical form. But provable. Everything from photosynthesis to ghosts are now chalked up to quantum physics. Even the people who study it just look at something unexplainable and say "Yup, that's quantum physics at work". Instead of saying "I have no fucking clue but I'm going to study it". A lot of scientists IMO are relying on old theory and not thinking outside of the box today. Something Einstein and Bohr were famous for. Instead we have Hawking and his ego.


----------



## streetfighter 2 (May 15, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I'm sorry but to me things in the deterministic universe seem a lot more feasible.


No need to apologize.  I am completely undecided on the issue.  The Copenhagen interpretation is inconvenient to say the least. 

My brother and I have been arguing about determinism, without taking sides, for at least 10 years. 


> _Sometimes it seems like Bohr was trolling on Einstein in his later years. Probably the only man alive that could._


Bohr was definitely trolling Einstein; but at the time Bohr was standing [almost] alone against the scientific equivalent of the pope: Einstein.  This is a pretty good show about the history of those discoveries:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5003968210604570515&hl=en&emb=1#docid=-4974977412862654856


> _How do we know? We haven't been there yet  Thats my point. This is one of the main reasons I am a huge supporter of NASA. WE NEED to get out there. If we sit here and tinker with theory the whole point of the science will be a mute point IMO._


I think you'll find that most scientists agree.  The path to discovery can be multifaceted, involving both physical and theoretical exploration.


> _They are guessing. *Good ones.* But guesses none the less._


Damn good guesses if you ask me! 


> _Look at weather for example. Thats a simple one. We (mankind in some form) have lived with the Earths weather for 6.5 million years. Studied it for thousands and yet with the most advanced HPC's in the world and the brightest minds working them we still cannot tell where a storm is going to go. Thats on our very own planet. Yet people want you to believe they can calculate all the variables in the UNIVERSE and tell whats going on millions of light years away? Sorry but this is why I call BS on a lot of this. We couldn't even plant a robot on Mars without crashing the damn thing. Yet we know how old Alpha Centauri is? A little common sense goes a long way._


You're absolutely right that climate science is very immature (despite it's age), but it's a vastly different field from astrophysics and quantum mechanics.

If you examine the process scientists use to draw their conclusions you can decide whether you agree or disagree with their reasoning.  Unfortunately there isn't any easy way to do this and it is necessary for logical affirmation.  Simply comparing dissimilar fields is not satisfactory.


> _A lot of scientists IMO are relying on theory and not thinking outside of the box today. Something Einstein and Bohr were famous for. Instead we have Hawking and his ego._


I dunno how much you follow contemporary physicists but Edward Witten is amongst the greatest.  Leonard Susskind is Bohr to Hawking's Einstein 

Also, if you ask me Maxwell is the best scientist who ever lived.


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (May 15, 2011)

Oh my god (I realize the irony).

To add a light hearted side back to this _technology forum_ I will brook the fact that we are definitely not alone.  The fact that this forum exists proves there are people elsewhere on the Earth, or at least a sufficiently capable computer....


Please, can we close out the existential debate.  This topic is basically crack for trolls, and has about as many definitive answers as the question of the existence of dark matter.  Everyone can find facts to support their opinions, and everyone has facts that negate the oppositions arguments.  Sigh....

Please, may the higher power (a.k.a. the moderators) please end this?  Please?


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## Robert-The-Rambler (May 15, 2011)

*We are not alone*

My name is Darth Vader. I am an Extra Terrestrial from the planet Vulcan......

Seriously this is some wild thread.

Hearing evokes emotion.

Seeing is starting to wonder.

Feeling is starting to believe.

Thinking leads to question.

Touching removes all doubt.


----------



## mastrdrver (May 15, 2011)

I know I'm careening off course but I just want to interject one thing.....



NdMk2o1o said:


> ..............I do know for fact that both UFO's (as in either a way classified top secret aircraft made by man or something made from another life form).........



There is an interesting fact about UFO "encounters". Outside of being some classified military thing, when asked the question "where are you from" the answers have changed throughout history at the same pace of the society accepted norm. In other words, when the publicly accepted thought was that the moon was like earth, the "aliens" said that is where they lived. Then we found out that it wasn't possible to live on the moon and it was not like Earth. Next we thought that maybe Mars had life and then so did the UFOs. Now today it is Alpha Centauri (I think, either closest star or galaxy).

Of course there are probably some "encounters" that don't hold to this, but like in court, the truth lies in consistency of the stories (especially the details), not in the exceptions. Or if there is any truth to all the "encounters" then there should be consistency between stories. Even people separated by locations and time.

The question I have is why the deception? If the government, then makes sense. If not, what do "UFOs" have to gain in this deception if they really do live many light years away?

Fwiw NdMk, ghosts work on a similar "deception" platform.


----------



## Velvet Wafer (May 15, 2011)

mastrdrver said:


> I know I'm careening off course but I just want to interject one thing.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually watched an UFO dogfight, of about 10 Objects all in all, for about 10-15 minutes, together with my Mother and  4 Friends of us, with a pair of Binoculars and without them... it were 5 Yellow and 5 Red lights from afar, that seemed to chase each other at an incredible Speed,and with Moves, that would have killed every Human pilot,and ripped everything we can build, simply apart.... except the crafts had a kind of superfuturistic suspension technology, that kept the Crew unharmed.
And with Binoculars, i was even able to see, that the red lights, were in facts crafts, and that they had three afterburner like openings to the back... the yellow lights had only two, even tho the shape was roughly similar at that Distance.
(maybe 15-20 kilometres away, and at one to two kilometres height... in fact we were able to watch that event from our homes balcony...had a pretty good sight, and the night was absolutely clear, as i live on the countryside of Germany)
Over the course of said 10-15 minutes, the crafts chased each other, and one by one, of both Sides,made each other disappear in bright flashes, followed by something what looked exactly like that (the Columbia Accident), for a brink of a second:





In the End,only 2 were left,one red, and one yellow, and stopped the fighting, like they were receiving orders/taxing each other... then, suddenly, one started to rise upwards in an elevator style, really, like a VTOL that can fly a few thousand KMH upwards, in a straight line.... and it was gone in about 10 seconds,looked like a Star,that grew smaller and smaller, till it it vanished in the darkness of space, totally invisible to be seen with my binoculars, my eyes, or anything. It was... gone.
The other one then started, to realtively slowly fly towards the South, of Germany, as if it were continuing its patrol...what ever it was guarding.

True Story, with more than enough reliable witnesses... 
(2 Women of 40+, and 2 Boys and 1 Girl of 18+)
Believe it or not


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## W1zzard (May 15, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> slowly fly towards the South, of Germany



i had some guests over at my house


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## douglatins (May 15, 2011)

I don't think so, but until someone can prove we can travel faster than the speed of light i doubt we would ever see another equally intelligent race


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## mastrdrver (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> I actually watched an UFO dogfight, of about 10 Objects all in all, for about 10-15 minutes, together with my Mother and  4 Friends of us, with a pair of Binoculars and without them... it were 5 Yellow and 5 Red lights from afar, that seemed to chase each other at an incredible Speed,and with Moves, that would have killed every Human pilot,and ripped everything we can build, simply apart.... except the crafts had a kind of superfuturistic suspension technology, that kept the Crew unharmed.
> And with Binoculars, i was even able to see, that the red lights, were in facts crafts, and that they had three afterburner like openings to the back... the yellow lights had only two, even tho the shape was roughly similar at that Distance.
> (maybe 15-20 kilometres away, and at one to two kilometres height... in fact we were able to watch that event from our homes balcony...had a pretty good sight, and the night was absolutely clear, as i live on the countryside of Germany)
> Over the course of said 10-15 minutes, the crafts chased each other, and one by one, of both Sides,made each other disappear in bright flashes, followed by something what looked exactly like that (the Columbia Accident), for a brink of a second:
> ...



One thing to think about with UFOs is that they seem to be able to do maneuvers and speeds that would break the laws of physics that we know. Such as going faster then the speed of sound without making any sound even though they broke the sound barrier.

While such things are not possible in the 3 or 4 dimensions we live in, if UFOs are from another dimension, then it could explain such odd phenomenons.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 16, 2011)

mastrdrver said:


> One thing to think about with UFOs is that they seem to be able to do maneuvers and speeds that would break the laws of physics that we know. Such as going faster then the speed of sound without making any sound even though they broke the sound barrier.
> 
> While such things are not possible in the 3 or 4 dimensions we live in, if UFOs are from another dimension, then it could explain such odd phenomenons.



its due to the design of their engines... they create a field of gravitational energy around the craft, so it is effectively not moving, but rather the "bubble" it flies within... makes i possible to ignore any kind of force that cant penetrate the bubble, effectively making it able to withstand physical forces, that would break each material that can be made... and these things can be controlled by humans too


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## W1zzard (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> its due to the design of their engines... they create a field of gravitational energy around the craft, so it is effectively not moving, but rather the "bubble" it flies within... makes i possible to ignore any kind of force that cant penetrate the bubble, effectively making it able to withstand physical forces, that would break each material that can be made... and these things can be controlled by humans too



according to all the physics that we know and that are not contradicted by any experiments known to man you need more energy than is available in the universe to build a warp drive, and also negative energy which doesnt exist.


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## 1nf3rn0x (May 16, 2011)

Does anyone believe in 2012? :S


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## AphexDreamer (May 16, 2011)

1nf3rn0x said:


> Does anyone believe in 2012? :S



The sun might get mad, knock a few satellites out. 

Worst case scenario (still not saying it will happen).

Our Poles decide to shift and they shift in such a manner where the Earth loses its Magnetic field and then the sun goes rampaging and without the Earths protective magnetic field we feel the wrath of the sun's radiation (Gamma rays, etc..) 

Thats from a scientific point of few. You can throw Aliens invade Earth in there too. 

Perhaps politically speaking the world will endure other terrors. 

I'm sure it will pass with nothing special to note. Its not far away now, so meh...

Of course just IMO.


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## Zyon (May 16, 2011)

Can't wait to show off my shiny new signature in 2012 that has the tag "I survived 2012 apocalypse!", hopefully the internet doesn't get taken down if it does take place...

Everyone start digging shelter in your backyard!


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## digibucc (May 16, 2011)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Please, may the higher power (a.k.a. the moderators) please end this?  Please?



everyone is being civil and enjoying a conversation. even wizz has jumped in.  what is
it in your almighty power and reasoning that makes you feel you need to stop everyone? 
it's a forum, people are talking.... that's kinda the point.


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## douglatins (May 16, 2011)

digibucc said:


> everyone is being civil and enjoying a conversation. even wizz has jumped in.  what is
> it in your almighty power and reasoning that makes you feel you need to stop everyone?
> it's a forum, people are talking.... that's kinda the point.



I agree with digi, this is on the right section, it's a civilized discussion of opinions, maybe you think your own truth is the only one? Do you also believe that we were created a few thousands of years ago by an inces.. ehrm, the same couple?


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## Deleted member 3 (May 16, 2011)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Please, may the higher power (a.k.a. the moderators) please end this?  Please?



No.


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## lilhasselhoffer (May 16, 2011)

Rather than explain myself, I would like to offer you this situation.

A man walks into a church, sits down, and remains quietly seated in line for the confessionals.  When the people in front of him are done, he takes his turn and enters the booth.

Upon entry the priest asks what sins the man would like to confess.  He replies with the following; "I have this issue with my wi-fi.  It goes out every ten minutes regularly, but comes back on after 30 seconds.  Do I need to get a new router?"

To which the priest responds "How long do you have the addresses on the router set to lease for?"  And so on.


This was the story of a civil discussion, with very real results.  The incongruity comes in the fact that you are discussing technology in a place where it is not generally acknowledged.  Having read through some of these responses citing pseudo science and generally less understood mechanics of the universe, I view this as something better left to personal belief than something which a forum can definitively answer.

I have no qualms with level headed discussion.  While the answers that people give are interesting, they are often based on mysticism and hope.  Whether you believe in Jesus, Mohammed, a spaghetti monster, or nothing at all these are spiritual self truths that generally are as concrete as jello.

What I propose instead is something like "If aliens came tomorrow what technology would you like them to share with us and why."  This both sates the desire for not being alone in this universe, and comes at it from a technological angle.  

Apparently my opinion is in the minority, so it will likely be disregarded.  I may be disappointed in this, but it is not unforseen.  To those who dismiss my conclusion I offer only the criticism that, for those proclaiming to be open minded, you have a narrow interpretation of what is possible.



Edit: As a response to those who imply that I believe in god creating everything x000 years ago (fill in the x with any number between 1 and 9), you are putting stupid words in my mouth.  I never implied this, and I take offense to you assuming it because I have a different opinion.  You are far more narrow minded than you espouse.  A difference of opinion drives development forward.

Those who cannot see the value of a belief in god, or a belief in science, are those blinded to the possibilities both have to offer.


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## assaulter_99 (May 16, 2011)

Zyon said:


> Can't wait to show off my shiny new signature in 2012 that has the tag "I survived 2012 apocalypse!", hopefully the internet doesn't get taken down if it does take place...
> 
> Everyone start digging shelter in your backyard!



Well If I ain't mistaken, I read somewhere that the 2012 crap was just a mistake, that it will be much later, in 2100 (stuff like that). Can't seem to find it but it was in a famous journo, so not BS.


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## Deleted member 3 (May 16, 2011)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> What I propose instead is something like "If aliens came tomorrow what technology would you like them to share with us and why."  This both sates the desire for not being alone in this universe, and comes at it from a technological angle.



Feel free to start that thread yourself. But don't try to limit other people in the conversations they want to have. If you don't like the thread/views/pseudo science, skip it. Nobody is forcing you to read through it.


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## digibucc (May 16, 2011)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> Those who cannot see the value of a belief in god, or a belief in science, are those blinded to the possibilities both have to offer.



no one i think is debating the value of science.  and we are not touching the boogieman under the bed for now. 

you just talk way too much without ever saying anything substantial.  your posts are
huge and you just come across as having had no point in typing them.  this is not to 
offend, but rather to explain why most people are paying you little attention.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 16, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> according to all the physics that we know and that are not contradicted by any experiments known to man you need more energy than is available in the universe to build a warp drive, and also negative energy which doesnt exist.



It effectively is no Warp drive, as you dont enter a hypothetical "fifth dimension", but rather stay within this one. 
You could rather compare it to a gravitation repellant, force field technology, just with the addition, that the centrepoint and amount of gravitational "pull",within the bubble, can be determined by the crafts engine, so you effectively make it "fall forward", and that,at an incredible Speed. 
IDK if you can travel FTL with it...but i doubt it. i just know that these things have no problems to move in our solar system, but that they need gravitational energy to keep their engines running. So maybe more a bit, like a locally bound puddle jumper


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## TheMailMan78 (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> It effectively is no Warp drive, as you dont enter a hypothetical "fifth dimension", but rather stay within this one.
> You could rather compare it to a gravitation repellant, force field technology, just with the addition, that the centrepoint and amount of gravitational "pull",within the bubble, can be determined by the crafts engine, so you effectively make it "fall forward", and that,at an incredible Speed.
> IDK if you can travel FTL with it...but i doubt it. i just know that these things have no problems to move in our solar system, but that they need gravitational energy to keep their engines running. So maybe more a bit, like a locally bound puddle jumper



Is there a chance they are cats from the future?










I think its pretty obvious. They are already here IMO.


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## niko084 (May 16, 2011)

St.Alia-Of-The-Knife said:


> Actually, flat means that the universe does not have any general space-time curvature, space-time being in the 4th dimension. So it doesnt mean that the whole universe is in 2 dimensions, its just "flat" in a sense between 3 and 4 dimensions just like a wrinkled piece of is between 2 and 3 dimensions



Sorry, poor wording, I'll post a link to an article on it.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/non-staff-papers/the-metaphysics-of-quantum-mechanics


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## TheMailMan78 (May 16, 2011)

niko084 said:


> Sorry, poor wording, I'll post a link to an article on it.
> 
> http://www.reasons.org/resources/non-staff-papers/the-metaphysics-of-quantum-mechanics



Cool site! Thank you.


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## streetfighter 2 (May 16, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> according to all the physics that we know and that are not contradicted by any experiments known to man you need more energy than is available in the universe to build a warp drive, and also negative energy which doesnt exist.


You are definitely right about the energy requirements of the Alcubierre drive* however negative energy has been hypothesized using the Casimir effect to generate an area of negative mass.

If the predictions of m/string theory are ever confirmed then, in theory, we could steal the energy from gravity leaked into other dimensions to create Higgs particles which we then use to create anti-matter for use in our energy storage system.  While we're doing that we'd also probably have a talk with god about how we really didn't need him/her anymore. 

*I am not presently aware of any other theoretical "warp" drives.


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## TheMailMan78 (May 16, 2011)

Lionheart said:


> More like this
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/110516/bush_reptilian.jpg



I was being serious. If you look at a cats face and the accepted face of a "
grey" they are one in the same. Maybe even human cat hybrids from the future.

Ill do some brutal photochoppin to show you. Gimme a minute.

Edit: Here. This is what I am talking about.


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## Lionheart (May 16, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I was being serious. If you look at a cats face and the accepted face of a "
> grey" they are one in the same. Maybe even human cat hybrids from the future.
> 
> Ill do some brutal photochoppin to show you. Gimme a minute.
> ...



Aaahh very interesting concept


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## Velvet Wafer (May 16, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> I was being serious. If you look at a cats face and the accepted face of a "
> grey" they are one in the same. Maybe even human cat hybrids from the future.
> 
> Ill do some brutal photochoppin to show you. Gimme a minute.
> ...



Greys come in a heap of forms, maybe not as versatile as humans looks are, but they can look very different, dependant on where they come from... 
May it be Bellatrax, Orion,Zeta Reticuli, or others...some are not even directly Greys, but rather Hybrids of Greys and other Races... it seems they have a general lack of Operators,as due to Aeons of cloning, their bodies are mere Hulls, inable to reproduce themselves. 
Their flawed cloning technique also seems to have damaged the reproduction process of new hulls, as the speed of decay is constantly rising, from generation to generation.
Oh, and then, there was the problem, that the biggest part of their population is in constant slavery.
cats as aliens?
maybe as a form of pet, in an egyptian way... but clearly nothing to waste much energy on, by thinking about it


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## Lionheart (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> Greys come in a heap of forms, maybe not as versatile as humans looks are, but they can look very different, dependant on where they come from...
> May it be Bellatrax, Orion,Zeta Reticuli, or others...some are not even directly Greys, but rather Hybrids of Greys and other Races... it seems they have a general lack of Operators,as due to Aeons of cloning, their bodies are mere Hulls, inable to reproduce themselves.
> Their flawed cloning technique also seems to have damaged the reproduction process of new hulls, as the speed of decay is constantly rising, from generation to generation.
> Oh, and then, there was the problem, that the biggest part of their population is in constant slavery.
> ...



Ooohh how I love your awakeness Its like listening to myself but with more fancier words


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## Velvet Wafer (May 16, 2011)

Lionheart said:


> Ooohh how I love your awakeness Its like listening to myself but with more fancier words



In the End, the Message is the same...
Its like that, really... we are all unique,as different as we can be....but on the other side, we are all the same, we are all one, on a certain level.


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## TheMailMan78 (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> Greys come in a heap of forms, maybe not as versatile as humans looks are, but they can look very different, dependant on where they come from...
> May it be Bellatrax, Orion,Zeta Reticuli, or others...some are not even directly Greys, but rather Hybrids of Greys and other Races... it seems they have a general lack of Operators,as due to Aeons of cloning, their bodies are mere Hulls, inable to reproduce themselves.
> Their flawed cloning technique also seems to have damaged the reproduction process of new hulls, as the speed of decay is constantly rising, from generation to generation.
> Oh, and then, there was the problem, that the biggest part of their population is in constant slavery.
> ...



Your are dead wrong. Cats are in fact aliens or what we know as "aliens". Greys look FAR to much like todays "primitive" feline not to be. All that stuff you just said is made up babble from some sci-fi BS book. If you are not going to take this thread seriously I will have to report you.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 16, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Your are dead wrong. Cats are in fact aliens or what we know as "aliens". Greys look FAR to much like todays "primitive" feline not to be. All that stuff you just said is made up babble from some sci-fi BS book. If you are not going to take this thread seriously I will have to report you.



Very funny!


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## TheMailMan78 (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> Very funny!



You are just upset I crushed all of your pre-notions of aliens. They are space cats. You have to accept this. The evidence is plain as day. As a matter of fact I challenge you to prove me wrong.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 16, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You are just upset I crushed all of your pre-notions of aliens. They are space cats. You have to accept this. The evidence is plain as day. As a matter of fact I challenge you to prove me wrong.



nothing in the known history of mankind,wether spoken or written has ever pointed towards the possible fact, that Cats are anything more, than what they seem to be. They are good at catching Mice, that can be said for sure.


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## NinkobEi (May 16, 2011)

W1zzard said:


> according to all the physics that we know and that are not contradicted by any experiments known to man you need more energy than is available in the universe to build a warp drive, and also negative energy which doesnt exist.



Does this take into account quantum physics? I am told that a quantum computer would have the power of a computer the size of the universe. Perhaps it is the same with energy.


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## TheMailMan78 (May 16, 2011)

Velvet Wafer said:


> nothing in the known history of mankind,wether spoken or written has ever pointed towards the possible fact, that Cats are anything more, than what they seem to be. They are good at catching Mice, that can be said for sure.



Except the fact the Egyptians worshiped the cats as gods and they built the pyramids which still hasn't been explained. Sorry mate but cats are aliens. The Egyptians knew it. You are blind if you cannot see it.


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## Kreij (May 16, 2011)

Keep it civil gents.


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## Velvet Wafer (May 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Except the fact the Egyptians worshiped the cats as gods and they built the pyramids which still hasn't been explained. Sorry mate but cats are aliens. The Egyptians knew it. You are blind if you cannot see it.


In school, i was taught, that they worshipped cats, but not as gods (they had already a pantheon of them... Ra, Osiris, Isis,Seth and so on) but rather as protectors of the food stock... seemed more logically to me
The pyramids... well... its true they shouldnt have been able to built them. But i bet, if some species helped them doing that, they probably would have had more relation to crocodiles, which the egyptians also worship: 







Kreij said:


> Keep it civil gents.


I hope that derailment is not included in this civility...otherwise, i feel like a certain someone tries to make me get punished


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## Kreij (May 17, 2011)

Discussion is allowed. Obvious thread crapping and derailment is not.
The point of this section is for scientific and thoughtful discussion.


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## TheMailMan78 (May 17, 2011)

Bastet was a cat god and Ra often turned himself into a cat when in battle. You said no history in man stated anything about the cat being a alien. Well there you have it. They worshiped the cat and they also built the pyramids something that could not have been done at that time in history. Aliens 100%. The even mummified cats to appease the gods. Thats a lot more evidence then anyone else has ever provided you and yet you deny it.





FACT


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## Velvet Wafer (May 17, 2011)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Bastet was a cat god and Ra often turned himself into a cat when in battle. You said no history in man stated anything about the cat being a alien. Well there you have it. They worshiped the cat and they also built the pyramids something that could not have been done at that time in history. Aliens 100%. The even mummified cats to appease the gods. Thats a lot more evidence then anyone else has ever provided you and yet you deny it.
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/110516/evo.jpg
> FACT



listen to a certain mod, with sharpshooting abilities... i think he hasnt made his statement without thought and plan 
I know you dont have problems with Infractions (in fact you collect them), but i rather want to stay uninfracted and unbanned


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## Kreij (May 17, 2011)

This section is for scientific discussion and speculation.
Try to post a link to at least some reasonable scientific theory or speculation if you want to bring something new to the table in a discussion.
We are all here to broaden our horizons and to learn, let's not turn this into a bad GN experiment or the whole section could vanish.
That would be a shame.

Actually after reading W1zz's description of this section (new news in science of discussion of tech effect us) this really is just a GN thread.


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