# NOCTUA in trouble? - Leo tests the NEW Zalman CNPS20X !



## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

"Today Leo takes a look at two new coolers from Zalman - a company we haven't heard much from in quite some time. Do Noctua need to be worried in 2020? Leo finds out all the gory details !"










Available at a couple of places here in the UK


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

Even if those Zalman coolers are good (I am at work so no Youtube) Noctua have further cemented their reputation with their current generation of coolers. Not only is the performance excellent but the fan noise is the best I have ever experienced. Even at 1100 RPM the fan(s) are inaudible.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Even if those Zalman coolers are good (I am at work so no Youtube) Noctua have further cemented their reputation with their current generation of coolers. Not only is the performance excellent but the fan noise is the best I have ever experienced. Even at 1100 RPM the fan(s) are inaudible.



Oh I know, I currently have their Noctua NH DI-15S running not 2 foot from me.

Just that their bigger unit was beating Noctua but 6 or 7 degress , so no slouch either, and at £70 its good to see some real competition


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## Chrispy_ (Jan 31, 2020)

More competition is good! Too much market focus has been put into AIOs in the last few years at the expense of air cooling.

Most reviews show that a decent air cooler is as good as the vast majority of 240mm or 280mm AIOs _when they're new _but the few tests that compare old AIOs to heatsinks does NOT paint AIOs in a favourable light. Even if the manufacturer spends the extra to use brass and copper throughout to avoid galvanic corrosion of the waterblock, they are still susceptible to gunking up with slime over time.

I'd actually like to see more innovation in the down-firing air coolers since VRM cooling is so important on both AMD and Ryzen boards with the current-gen products.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> More competition is good. Too much market focus has been put into AIOs in the last few years and most reviews show that a decent heatsink is as good as the vast majority of 240mm or 280mm AIOs.



I'd suggest that it's not the decent, but the best heatsinks that can keep up to a point. Up until this heatsink even the Noctua couldn't keep up with the 240 (by 7 degrees)


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 31, 2020)

You lose a lot of pressure from that silly fan design.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> You lose a lot of pressure from that silly fan design.



The results seem to suggest otherwise though. How silly is any of it when it is beating the Noctua?


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> The results seem to suggest otherwise though. How silly is any of it when it is beating the Noctua?




If it's silly but it works, it doesn't make it any less silly


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> If it's silly but it works, it is doesn't make it any less silly




Definition of silly - "having or showing a lack of common sense or judgement; absurd and foolish. "

show how with that definition it is any of those? As I don't see if it's taken the 'crown' away from Noctua as The best


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## Vario (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> The results seem to suggest otherwise though. How silly is any of it when it is beating the Noctua?


Only way to know is to try different fans on the Zalman.
I wonder how it would perform with more powerful fans in comparison to a NHD15 also equipped with identical more powerful fans.  Then the heatsink could be compared independently of the fan.
Sometimes the heatsink is well constructed enough to make up for average/bad stock fans.

I am running a PHTC14PE which is a pretty well constructed heatsink, but running dual Thermalright TY-143 fans (Silver Arrow) on it because the original Phanteks fans were designed for quiet operation over cooling and I'd rather have the cooling headroom even if it generates more noise.  Did the same for my recent i9 build with a single TY143 on a PHTC14PE rather than the stock dual Phanteks fans.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> Only way to know is to try different fans on the Zalman.
> I wonder how it would perform with more powerful fans in comparison to a NHD15 also equipped with identical more powerful fans.  Then the heatsink could be compared independently of the fan.
> Sometimes the heatsink is well constructed enough to make up for average/bad stock fans.
> 
> I am running a PHTC14PE which is a pretty well constructed heatsink, but running dual Thermalright TY-143 fans (Silver Arrow) on it because the original Phanteks fans were designed for quiet operation over cooling and I'd rather have the cooling headroom even if it generates more noise.  Did the same for my recent i9 build with a single TY143 on a PHTC14PE rather than the stock dual Phanteks fans.




Just looked them up, fan details -


Connection: 2x 4-pin PWM, 2x 3-pin RGB (5VDG, 5V)
Speed: 800 to 1,500 rpm
Volume: max. 29 dB (A)
Funding volume: max. 103.64 m³ / h
Static pressure: max. 1.1 mm H2O
Lifespan: 100,000 hours


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## Vario (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> Just looked them up, fan details -
> 
> 
> Connection: 2x 4-pin PWM, 2x 3-pin RGB (5VDG, 5V)
> ...


That fan does have wimpy static pressure.  With the fin density, it could probably perform better with a more powerful fan design.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> That fan does have wimpy static pressure.  With the fin density, it could probably perform better with a more powerful fan design.



well whatever they are doing, they are doing it right, as it's around 7 degrees cooler than the Noctua.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> Definition of silly - "having or showing a lack of common sense or judgement; absurd and foolish. "
> 
> show how with that definition it is any of those? As I don't see if it's taken the 'crown' away from Noctua as The best



Youre missing my point. But since you're pulling out the dictionary attacks. I'll leave the thread here rather than drop to your level. Enjoy your Zalman CPU cooler.


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## Vario (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Youre missing my point. But since you're pulling out the dictionary attacks. I'll leave the thread here rather than drop to your level. Enjoy your Zalman CPU cooler.


He has a Noctua cooler.  While the drama is entertaining, it doesn't relate to the merits of the cooler. I think you both have good points.  If the review is accurate, the total package has superior performance to the Noctua.  However, its also likely that the performance could be even better if a better fan design was employed.


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## mtcn77 (Jan 31, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> More competition is good! Too much market focus has been put into AIOs in the last few years at the expense of air cooling.
> 
> Most reviews show that a decent air cooler is as good as the vast majority of 240mm or 280mm AIOs _when they're new _but the few tests that compare old AIOs to heatsinks does NOT paint AIOs in a favourable light. Even if the manufacturer spends the extra to use brass and copper throughout to avoid galvanic corrosion of the waterblock, they are still susceptible to gunking up with slime over time.


The dow guide suggested biofouling is due to high temperature coolant operation which is ironic in perspective because aios should run cooler than air coolers.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Youre missing my point. But since you're pulling out the dictionary attacks. I'll leave the thread here rather than drop to your level. Enjoy your Zalman CPU cooler.



I am not missing your point, but I feel that it is you that is making something out of nothing. You are determined to make their product look worthless, when the results show that it is far from that.
As for 'dropping to your level'  it is yourself that is lowering standards with those remarks.
As for the zalman, I have no intention of getting one, I was reporting on a new product that looked to be worth looking at as an option.


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## Vario (Jan 31, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> The dow guide suggested biofouling is due to high temperature coolant operation which is ironic in perspective because aios should run cooler than air coolers.


The coolant should get hot to facilitate thermal transfer from the CPU's lid.  If the coolant is hot, the CPU is less hot.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> I am not missing your point, but I feel that it is you that is making something out of nothing. You are determined to make their product look worthless, when the results show that it is far from that.
> As for 'dropping to your level'  it is yourself that is lowering standards with those remarks.
> As for the zalman, I have no intention of getting one, I was reporting on a new product that looked to be worth looking at as an option.



You are. Quote me on where i said the product was '_worthless_' ???

I simply said it was a silly design, but it its silly, but it still works, that doesnt make it any less silly.

You understand nothing but good job on blowing it out of proportion.


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## mtcn77 (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> The coolant should get hot to facilitate thermal transfer from the CPU's lid.  If the coolant is hot, the CPU is less hot.


Then, according to the guide, you should not have added polyethylene glycol for corrosion resistance and had better gone with maybe silver inhibitor, or full antigalvanic plates and distilled water altogether. AIOs is a funny business.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> He has a Noctua cooler.  While the drama is entertaining, it doesn't relate to the merits of the cooler. I think you both have good points.  If the review is accurate, the total package has superior performance to the Noctua.  However, its also likely that the performance could be even better if a better fan design was employed.



Good point re a better specced fan. I know little about which fan is best for what but I feel that they might get better (lower) temps with a higher static pressure fan. It may well be though that they have tested with a higher static pressure, or it may not have made any significant difference, maybe in time one of the reviewers could throw some Noctua's on it and see what happens?

Having said all that I am swapping out the Be Silent wings 2 fans on the Alphacool for Noctua myself, lol!


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## GlacierNine (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> The coolant should get hot to facilitate thermal transfer from the CPU's lid.  If the coolant is hot, the CPU is less hot.


If the coolant is hot then the radiator is failing to disspate the heat. Also coolant going over 60C in most AIOs is the point at which it starts to permeate the tubing and accelerate loss of coolant, resulting in reliability issues and poor performance.

The lower the temperature of your block, pump, coolant, radiator, fins, heatpipes, heatsink base etc, the better. This goes for both AIO and Air coolers. If any one of those things is getting hotter than the others it means that's the point at which heat is failing to exit the cooling system into the surrounding air. That heat is being trapped there and will eventually limit thermal transfer, resulting in worse cooling as that heat makes it's way back around the cooling system.


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

When It comes to fans I totally agree with everyone. There are a couple of things to put in perspective though. Not all AIOs are made equal but just because we have older AIOs does not mean they were bad. My Cooler Master Nepton 280 was the best cooler I owned period and I came from a FRIO (OC) and Cooler Master V8 before that. The reason that I agree with the fan scenario is because my best cooler, the Alphacool Eisbaer did not achieve that until I added some nice Noctua fans. Zalman is not a big name compared to Noctua but I have never had an issue with any of their products. 7 degrees is a huge difference in thermal performance so I agree with the OP on that regard. Does anyone here really think that Zalman make better fans than Noctua?


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Youre missing my point. But since you're pulling out the dictionary attacks. I'll leave the thread here rather than drop to your level. Enjoy your Zalman CPU cooler.



I am not missing your point, but I feel that it is you that is making something out of nothing. You are determined to make their product look worthless, when the results show that it is far from that.
As for 'dropping to your level'  it is yourself that is lowering standards with those remarks.
As for the zalman, I have no intention of getting one, I was reporting on a new product that


kapone32 said:


> When It comes to fans I totally agree with everyone. There are a couple of things to put in perspective though. Not all AIOs are made equal but just because we have older AIOs does not mean they were bad. My Cooler Master Nepton 280 was the best cooler I owned period and I came from a FRIO (OC) and Cooler Master V8 before that. The reason that I agree with the fan scenario is because my best cooler, the Alphacool Eisbaer did not achieve that until I added some nice Noctua fans. Zalman is not a big name compared to Noctua but I have never had an issue with any of their products. 7 degrees is a huge difference in thermal performance so I agree with the OP on that regard. Does anyone here really think that Zalman make better fans than Noctua?



You have done exactly what I am about to do, swapping the fans for Noctua on my Alphacool


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> I am not missing your point, but I feel that it is you that is making something out of nothing. You are determined to make their product look worthless, when the results show that it is far from that.
> As for 'dropping to your level'  it is yourself that is lowering standards with those remarks.
> As for the zalman, I have no intention of getting one, I was reporting on a new product that
> 
> ...



Don't be surprised when you see you CPU idling 2-4 degrees above ambient and not going past 50 C.


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> You are. Quote me on where i said the product was '_worthless_' ???
> 
> I simply said it was a silly design, but it its silly, but it still works, that doesnt make it any less silly.
> 
> You understand nothing but good job on blowing it out of proportion.



Okay I may have misused 'worthless' I agree, yet I Still do not see how you can call something silly if it works?
As an example i know of some that say the new Oneplus 7 with its flip up camera silly, yet people that have one says that it is brilliant



kapone32 said:


> Don't be surprised when you see you CPU idling 2-4 degrees above ambient and not going past 50 C.



Now that I will be happy about!


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## bug (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> The coolant should get hot to facilitate thermal transfer from the CPU's lid.  If the coolant is hot, the CPU is less hot.


Not really. The coolant should only get hot if the heat is not exhausted quickly enough. Otherwise it could stay quite cool.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> Okay I may have misused 'worthless' I agree, yet I Still do not see how you can call something silly if it works?












If its silly,

But it works

That doesn't make it any less silly.

If its silly,

But it works.

Its still silly.



For instance If i was to weld a car seat to the bonnet of a car - Its silly, but it works, but its still silly.


Anyway. Good day to you.


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## Vario (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> When It comes to fans I totally agree with everyone. There are a couple of things to put in perspective though. Not all AIOs are made equal but just because we have older AIOs does not mean they were bad. My Cooler Master Nepton 280 was the best cooler I owned period and I came from a FRIO (OC) and Cooler Master V8 before that. The reason that I agree with the fan scenario is because my best cooler, the Alphacool Eisbaer did not achieve that until I added some nice Noctua fans. Zalman is not a big name compared to Noctua but I have never had an issue with any of their products. 7 degrees is a huge difference in thermal performance so I agree with the OP on that regard. Does anyone here really think that Zalman make better fans than Noctua?


In my experience, the Coolermaster V8 was actually a very good cooler if the stock fan was swapped for a Corsair SP120L (the grey OEM fans from an H100i).  The mounting system for the V8 was horrible though.


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## mtcn77 (Jan 31, 2020)

GlacierNine said:


> That heat is being trapped there and will eventually limit thermal transfer, resulting in worse cooling as that heat makes it's way back around the cooling system.


As a side note, the heat level(temperature) where ryzens start to show equivalent transmittance with normal thermal pastes compared to liquid metal interface is around 90-95°C.





						Ryzen 7 3700X high temperatures
					

Hello everybody,  Yesterday, I finished my new build featuring the Ryzen 7 3700x, it contains:  Ryzen 7 3700X MSI X470 Gaming Pro Carbon Be Quiet! Dark Rock 4 16 GB DDR4 Tridenz Z RGB 3200 Mhz CL16 Fresh Copy of Windows 10 Fractal Design Meshify C with 2 intakes 1 exhaust  Now, after some...




					community.amd.com


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## EarthDog (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> Good point re a better specced fan. I know little about which fan is best for what but I feel that they might get better (lower) temps with a higher static pressure fan. It may well be though that they have tested with a higher static pressure, or it may not have made any significant difference, maybe in time one of the reviewers could throw some Noctua's on it and see what happens?


This is, essentially, what FreedomE was trying to say. 

That fan, without the frame/shroud and whatever its specs it is is low SP. With the fin density the way it looks, a fan with more SP (which a framed fan would get more automatically) would likely show even better results. 

If that is true, I also think it 'silly' to put an open frame fan on such a device. Clearly it works, but it could work even better. 

Perhaps that perspective may shine light on the forest instead of the trees.


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## dirtyferret (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> "Today Leo takes a look at two new coolers from Zalman - a company we haven't heard much from in quite some time. Do Noctua need to be worried in 2020? Leo finds out all the gory details !"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Glad to see Zalman making a come back, they have been irrelevant in North America for some time.  Every time I go to microcenter I see an odd assortment of their CPU coolers that are 10yrs+ old.  That particular Zalman is 5mm higher then the Noctua D15, has worse ram clearance on the cooler and is slightly louder as well.  Good competition for Noctua but I doubt they are worried about it.



lorry said:


> well whatever they are doing, they are doing it right, as it's around 7 degrees cooler than the Noctua.



it's the RGB


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

I asked Leo on his Youtube post if he might be willing to swap the fans out for Noctua, to see if that makes a difference.
Worst he can say is no, so worth trying'



kapone32 said:


> When It comes to fans I totally agree with everyone. There are a couple of things to put in perspective though. Not all AIOs are made equal but just because we have older AIOs does not mean they were bad. My Cooler Master Nepton 280 was the best cooler I owned period and I came from a FRIO (OC) and Cooler Master V8 before that. The reason that I agree with the fan scenario is because my best cooler, the Alphacool Eisbaer did not achieve that until I added some nice Noctua fans. Zalman is not a big name compared to Noctua but I have never had an issue with any of their products. 7 degrees is a huge difference in thermal performance so I agree with the OP on that regard. Does anyone here really think that Zalman make better fans than Noctua?



Just as an aside to all of this, the Alphacool Eisbaer pump is voltage controlled, isn't it?


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## dirtyferret (Jan 31, 2020)

Not to hijack the thread but Corsair recently released a beast of a CPU air cooler with performance that rivals the Noctua D15.  It also doubles as a white noise machine for your neighbors...who live two streets away

_Over the last year, I have tested many CPU coolers with various noise levels. To give you an idea of just how loud the fans are, while I was testing the Corsair A500 my wife arrived home from work and the first thing she said was “what is that noise?”. This is something that has not happened before while testing a CPU cooler – my wife doesn’t have what you would call sensitive hearing normally and she was in a different room to where I was testing. 



















						Corsair A500 CPU Cooler Review - KitGuru
					

For about the last decade, all-in-one coolers have been the preferred choice for cooling high-perfor




					www.kitguru.net
				



_


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## lorry (Jan 31, 2020)

His written review isn't up as yet (just checked) but he said in the comments that it was no noisier than any of the others. See if he mentions actual noise levels in his written review


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

lorry said:


> I asked Leo on his Youtube post if he might be willing to swap the fans out for Noctua, to see if that makes a difference.
> Worst he can say is no, so worth trying'
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly


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## cucker tarlson (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Even if those Zalman coolers are good (I am at work so no Youtube) Noctua have further cemented their reputation with their current generation of coolers. Not only is the performance excellent but the fan noise is the best I have ever experienced. Even at 1100 RPM the fan(s) are inaudible.


I have a a15 fan and at 1100rpm it is definitely audible.it's not loud,but definitely makes some noise.


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> In my experience, the Coolermaster V8 was actually a very good cooler if the stock fan was swapped for a Corsair SP120L (the grey OEM fans from an H100i).  The mounting system for the V8 was horrible though.



It was a great cooler and just like most Coolermaster CPU coolers was definitely a pain in the butt to install. It was a little easier than the Frio though.



cucker tarlson said:


> I have a a15 fan and at 1100rpm it is definitely audible.it's not loud,but definitely makes some noise.



Interesting mine is the TR4-DH14. I am not sure it uses the A15 fan though as the specs are a little bit different.


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## dirtyferret (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Interesting mine is the TR4-DH14. I am not sure it uses the A15 fan though as the specs are a little bit different.



It should use the P14 & P12 fans


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## GlacierNine (Jan 31, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> As a side note, the heat level(temperature) where ryzens start to show equivalent transmittance with normal thermal pastes compared to liquid metal interface is around 90-95°C.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you're in the wrong thread, because there's no direct link between what you talked about and what I was talking about.


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Even if those Zalman coolers are good (I am at work so no Youtube) Noctua have further cemented their reputation with their current generation of coolers. Not only is the performance excellent but the fan noise is the best I have ever experienced. Even at 1100 RPM the fan(s) are inaudible.



Its always been Thermalright for me, now Scythe. I remember Zalman during Skt 462-939 days


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

eidairaman1 said:


> Its always been Thermalright for me, now Scythe. I remember Zalman during Skt 462-939 days



Yeah Thermalright (brings back memories) and Scythe make some really good coolers. Zalman was indeed a force but not many retailers in Canada carried their products.


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## mtcn77 (Jan 31, 2020)

GlacierNine said:


> I think you're in the wrong thread, because there's no direct link between what you talked about and what I was talking about.


We were talking about thermal interface and vario was saying it makes radiators more efficient. I meant to say the same transmittance is present in cpu ihs.


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## Chrispy_ (Jan 31, 2020)

Vario said:


> The coolant should get hot to facilitate thermal transfer from the CPU's lid.  If the coolant is hot, the CPU is less hot.


Indeed. Intel's 9th gen chips in particular get extremely warm even on water, by design. If that's enough to break down the coolant in the AIO loop, then those AIOs are not fit for purpose.


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## EarthDog (Jan 31, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Indeed. Intel's 9th gen chips in particular get extremely warm even on water, by design. If that's enough to break down the coolant in the AIO loop, then those AIOs are not fit for purpose.


That or, the device is underpowered for the application... what i mean is user error. Using a 2x120mm rad and runnning the CPU at 90C, etc.......or HCC chips. The problem is getting the heat out of the smaller die... not so much temps. I've run 5W ICs that hit 90C before...



bug said:


> Otherwise it could stay quite cool.


What is quite cool, actually? I've quite commonly seen AIO water temps at 40C+...


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## Zach_01 (Jan 31, 2020)

Most of us already know and understand that the more delta in temp you have between 2 substances the more heat transfer you have and that is one of the laws of thermodynamics.
Substances discussed in previous posts:
1. CPU silicon
2. Water
...so larger Tdelta between them implies more heat transfer right?
Well... not always the case.

What some may forget, is that between IHS and water there is a third material, the TIM. The one that is the major heat transfer tool. And a forth, the block plate. And a fifth the IHS. I’m taking forth/fifth out of the equation as it is given and cannot change and I will focus on thermal paste (TIM).

Lets give some numbers and let everyone draw their own conclusions.

Case 1.
Ambient 23C
CPU avg power draw= 38 ~ 87W (Idle/low ~ full load)
CPU avg temp = 32C ~ 64C (Idle/low ~ full load)
AIO water temp = *24.5C ~ 26.5C* (Idle/low ~ full load)
AIO Rad fans bound to water temp (750 ~ 1250rpm, custom)
TIM = normal paste (arctic silver 5)

Case 2.
Ambient 23C
CPU avg power draw= 38 ~ 88W (Idle/low ~ full load)
CPU avg temp = 31C ~ 62 (Idle/low ~ full load)
AIO water temp = *24C ~ 25.5C* (Idle/low ~ full load)
AIO Rad fans bound to water temp (900 ~ 1600rpm, custom aggressive)
TIM = normal paste (arctic silver 5)

Case 3.
Ambient 23C
CPU avg power draw= 38 ~ 88W (Idle/low ~ full load)
CPU avg temp = 29C ~ 59C (Idle/low ~ full load)
AIO water temp = *25 ~ 27C* (Idle/low ~ full load)
AIO Rad fans bound to water temp (850 ~ 1450rpm, custom and same as 1)
TIM = liquid metal

All cases with same conditions for: usage, CPU settings, pump speed and pretty much everything else, except case 2 for the different (more aggressive) fan curve. 1 and 3 have same fan curve.

Any thoughts?

——————————

As for Zalman’s fan choice (frameless), while it’s is weird we really can’t tell what they saw into their R&D and testing... but I’m with the ”test it with a stronger fan” and more conventional one, and see what happens.


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## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

Zach_01 said:


> Most of us already know and understand that the more delta in temp you have between 2 substances the more heat transfer you have and that is one of the laws of thermodynamics.
> Substances discussed in previous posts:
> 1. CPU silicon
> 2. Water
> ...




Nice post but you forgot one thing airflow. Not the airflow going through the rads but intake and exhaust. That can have a dramatic impact on the temps you are referencing.


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## Vayra86 (Jan 31, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> If it's silly but it works, it doesn't make it any less silly



You say silly, but this is a fan that isn't blocked on the exhaust at all. Only on intake, but this is one of those places in life where more suction isn't going to do a thing  The fan offers unobstructed push. And the one place where it is actually also pulling, the air has no other place to go.

Another advantage of this fan design is that its flatter and you can also see that the second fan is squeezed nicely in between the towers.

Another one? I think its hella sexy like this and I'll gladly switch that frame to the front instead of the back. Visually a big improvement and apparently not quite so costly in terms of temps. The results at 1000 RPM look great. This looks like a nice marriage of form and function to me.

OH... and another one, for RGB heads. You get an RGB fan that does NOT lose diameter for some silly glowing ring. The longer I look at this fan, and the 20X cooler, the more brilliant it gets really. Damn.



FreedomEclipse said:


> If its silly,
> 
> But it works
> 
> ...







This is silly, but it works. Apparently


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## Xzibit (Jan 31, 2020)

The odd thing about the video is he has *both Noctua fans clipped on to one tower on the D15. Push, Pull for just one of the towers?* I hope he didn't run the test like that.

A case of not reading the manual ? *Noctua NH-D15 manual*


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## sneekypeet (Jan 31, 2020)

Two things.....

1) I will believe this sort of thing once I have this cooler in hand.
2) Do not care for CPU cooler results with a delta as temperature. It means that the reviewer is quite possibly not keeping the conditions the same for all coolers. While room temp plays some effect into higher temps, humidity is a larger factor to fan performance that you might think.

EDIT: also locking fan speeds is a poop thing to do, run the cooler as intended, record the temperature, move on. Too much work going on in that review that makes no sense to a guy like me.


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## Zach_01 (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Nice post but you forgot one thing airflow. Not the airflow going through the rads but intake and exhaust. That can have a dramatic impact on the temps you are referencing.


I don’t think I forgot anything as I have mention fan rpm but I’m willing to discuss what you mean by that...



sneekypeet said:


> ...humidity is a larger factor to fan performance that you might think.


how exactly?


----------



## kapone32 (Jan 31, 2020)

Zach_01 said:


> I don’t think I forgot anything as I have mention fan rpm but I’m willing to discuss what you mean by that...



What I mean is the rest of the fans in your case. Like do you have fans blowing air across the MB from a side panel? How big are the front intake fans and what is their CFM. Where is the radiator(s) positioned. The biggest though is if you have active cooling on the RAM, VRM and CPU block. I have a Thermaltake Core series case and I used one of the fan frames on the motherboard tray (it is horizontal) to have 2 120MM fans blow air across the aforementioned area on the MB. I noticed a 6 degree drop in my temps both idle and load and the CPU block always feel cool to the touch.


----------



## dirtyferret (Jan 31, 2020)

Zach_01 said:


> how exactly?



Good question.  Hot air can take in more water vapors making it less dense then dry hot air but not sure of how that makes a major impact on fans??


----------



## Vayra86 (Jan 31, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> Good question.  Hot air can take in more water vapors from humidity making it less dense then dry hot air but not sure of how that makes a major impact on fans??



Heat transfer is slower through humid air, is what I know. I think its also plausible that it affects airflow.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jan 31, 2020)

All I can say is I have seen the effects. I am no scientist so I am not going to take you down a technical trip through minutia.

In high humidity situations, coolers do not perform as well as they do in dryer air.


----------



## dirtyferret (Jan 31, 2020)

Vayra86 said:


> Heat transfer is slower through humid air, is what I know. I think its also plausible that it affects airflow.


True it will take slightly more energy to heat a humid room compared to a drier room.



sneekypeet said:


> All I can say is I have seen the effects. I am no scientist so I am not going to take you down a technical trip through minutia.
> 
> In high humidity situations, coolers do not perform as well as they do in dryer air.


You may be right or wrong, I'm hardly an expert on this.  I think this type of test would be beyond the scope of most CPU reviewers to be done properly.  One thing I will say, typically humid air is warmer then drier air in terms of room temp.  It may be that the room temp is the real factor in the effects you are seeing.


----------



## Baks (Jan 31, 2020)

too good to be true


----------



## tabascosauz (Jan 31, 2020)

"Beating" the D15 hasn't really been news for any amount of time now. So many dual stack 140mm heatsinks have come out over the last few years and they all fall in at roughly the same performance. Who wins depends on the test setup and who's testing, and the winning margins can hardly even be called a "win" compared to what water can achieve. Zalman isn't reinventing the wheel here (as much as they would like to portray it as such with their hilarious fans), and I hate clickbait titles.

Zalman used to make some really interesting coolers that were potent for their size, but the fan-in-the-heatsink design has sort of died off over the years. Their new direction of design language is disappointing.

TC14PE, DR4, D15...it's all down to personal preference at that segment of the aircooling market, fan noise notwithstanding.

And most of these benchmarks are pretty much worthless aside from getting a vague idea of where performance is. Testing on an uncluttered test bench or tabletop yields no useful information to when the cooler is put into a restrictive case with stock fans (what the majority of people do), or in the SFF crowd, no case fans at all. Testing with drive cages in the way, testing with the side panel off...you get the idea. Case in point: the U9S and D9L are closely matched, but the U9S easily pulls ahead in highly restrictive environments where airflow is limited or poorly planned.

@kapone32 AFAIK dual stack towers aren't available for TR4. Are you thinking of the U14S TR4? Difference in fan noise probably comes from having only a single A15 compared to the D15, in a much more ideal position compared to the D15S.


----------



## sneekypeet (Jan 31, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> It may be that the room temp is the real factor in the effects you are seeing.



My office is always 22.5-23.5 *C   This is summer or winter, and humidity is always in the range of 45-50%, and is why I feel more than confident not needing to use a delta to hide other variables.


----------



## Zach_01 (Jan 31, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> What I mean is the rest of the fans in your case. Like do you have fans blowing air across the MB from a side panel? How big are the front intake fans and what is their CFM. Where is the radiator(s) positioned. The biggest though is if you have active cooling on the RAM, VRM and CPU block. I have a Thermaltake Core series case and I used one of the fan frames on the motherboard tray (it is horizontal) to have 2 120MM fans blow air across the aforementioned area on the MB. I noticed a 6 degree drop in my temps both idle and load and the CPU block always feel cool to the touch.


The numbers I’ve provide was my testing, and I have no case. It’s open system with 2 additional case fans on VRM and chipset with same rpm. And as I said test conditions was same. Same day within 1-2 hours. Just TIM changing and settle temps down. I think my self observant person when trying to do such things and I was sure to take results with same conditions for all aspects.



sneekypeet said:


> All I can say is I have seen the effects. I am no scientist so I am not going to take you down a technical trip through minutia.
> 
> In high humidity situations, coolers do not perform as well as they do in dryer air.


I can agree with this and pretty much everything else others said about, but regular reviewers like this one tend to review products in controlled environments.

I’m no regular viewer of Leo tho, so can’t really have a solid opinion...


----------



## GlacierNine (Jan 31, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Indeed. Intel's 9th gen chips in particular get extremely warm even on water, by design. If that's enough to break down the coolant in the AIO loop, then those AIOs are not fit for purpose.


Coolant temp is not the same thing as die temp.


----------



## Sashleycat (Jan 31, 2020)

Looks good but part of the Noctua Appeal for me is the (fantastic) mounting system Securifirm. Easy as pie to install and mount. I'd trade a couple of degrees for that alone (I don't over clock, go figure). The only reason I went with the Be Quiet (which has a rather fiddle mounting system) is because it was the only one in my budget available at the time with a chunky, top-down style for maximum VRM cooling. I use Noctua PPC fans though.

I too have switched away from liquid AIO coolers due to the longevity concerns. And also, if the pump fails on an AIO, that heat is going NOWHERE. While if the fan fails on a huge heatsink, A) you see it pretty quickly and B) the heatsink still radiates heat in reasonable airflow. Pump failure on AIO can damage a CPU in a few minutes.


----------



## mtcn77 (Jan 31, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> All I can say is I have seen the effects.
> In high humidity situations, coolers do not perform as well as they do in dryer air.


Water vapour has superior heat capacity. That narrows the temperature gradient toward the ambient.


----------



## cucker tarlson (Jan 31, 2020)

Sashleycat said:


> Looks good but part of the Noctua Appeal for me is the (fantastic) mounting system Securifirm. Easy as pie to install and mount. I'd trade a couple of degrees for that alone (I don't over clock, go figure).


this times ten.

noctua's installation technique is fantastic.
quick,simple and just impossible to fail.


----------



## mtcn77 (Jan 31, 2020)

Normal people who don't test their cpus at 90-95°C, should consider liquid metal on nickel plated heatsinks to make the most of their cpu ihs thermal interface. Basically liquid metal fills the ihs gaps best, imo.


----------



## dirtyferret (Jan 31, 2020)

cucker tarlson said:


> this times ten.
> 
> noctua's installation technique is fantastic.
> quick,simple and just impossible to fail.


you can also use it across several of their coolers if you ever want to swap them out


----------



## HTC (Jan 31, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> you can also use it across several of their coolers if you ever want to swap them out


And they send you, free of charge, mounting kits for sockets the cooler wasn't originally designed for, like the one in my system specs.

No idea if Zalman does the same.


----------



## Chrispy_ (Feb 1, 2020)

GlacierNine said:


> Coolant temp is not the same thing as die temp.



I don't know what the DOW guide states - only that it was suggested temperature is responsible for breakdown of the glycol-based coolant to form 'biosludge'

I'm not the person who posted that quote, but if there's biosludge in an AIO and a coolant manufacturer (DOW) has a guide explaining how to avoid biosludge due to high temperatures, I think it's a pretty cut-and-dried case for an AIO where the only possibly heat source that could have degraded the coolant is the CPU.


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 1, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> I don't know what the DOW guide states - only that it was suggested temperature is responsible for breakdown of the glycol-based coolant to form 'biosludge'
> 
> I'm not the person who posted that quote, but if there's biosludge in an AIO and a coolant manufacturer (DOW) has a guide explaining how to avoid biosludge due to high temperatures, I think it's a pretty cut-and-dried case for an AIO where the only possibly heat source that could have degraded the coolant is the CPU.


"Dispelling the Myths of Heat Transfer Fluids Presentation"


----------



## lorry (Feb 1, 2020)

Surely for the vast majority of users though their AIO rarely (if ever) goes below freezing point, so why this need to add anti freeze?
(I'm new to all of this, so don't shoot me)


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 1, 2020)

lorry said:


> Surely for the vast majority of users though their AIO rarely (if ever) goes below freezing point, so why this need to add anti freeze?
> (I'm new to all of this, so don't shoot me)


I will shoot you.




It is not for freeze protection. It is for biocide & anticorrosion. Also not any antifreeze - alcohol cause rusting.


----------



## lorry (Feb 1, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> I will shoot you.
> View attachment 143722
> It is not for freeze protection. It is for biocide.



ah!
so why not use mayhems then, or is that effectively the same thing?


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 1, 2020)

lorry said:


> ah!
> so why not use mayhems then, or is that effectively the same thing?


It is a point of reference as previously stated. Our redneck minister of finance has mentioned dow(I think it was corning) in an envious context. We are speaking at nation level reputation.


----------



## lorry (Feb 1, 2020)

Gotcha

His written report is now online, with noise levels performance at 1,000 rpm and 1500 rpm.









						Zalman CNPS20X and CNPS17X: Noctua didn’t see this coming! - KitGuru
					

Since publishing our review of Zalman's new CNPS20X and CNPS17X air coolers, we have received a numb




					www.kitguru.net


----------



## Chrispy_ (Feb 1, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> "Dispelling the Myths of Heat Transfer Fluids Presentation"


Thanks for that. Original quoter seemed to have their understanding of that messed up then. Temperature isn't going to be the culprit since 300F isn't a temperature that a CPU is likely to generate.
According to that PDF it's poor water quality and over-dilution of the coolant that will cause corrosion and biosludge.

Given that few, if any, AIO's last more than 5 years, and that they usually degrade in performance from corrosion or gunking, we can assume that getting the right dilution, and quality of water and additives is beyond the capabilities of most AIO manufacturers. My own watercooling days are almost 20 years behind me now but I couldn't keep the loop gunk-free for more than a year with what I had available to me in those days.


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 1, 2020)

Chrispy_ said:


> Thanks for that. Original quoter seemed to have their understanding of that messed up then. Temperature isn't going to be the culprit since 300F isn't a temperature that a CPU is likely to generate.
> According to that PDF it's poor water quality and over-dilution of the coolant that will cause corrosion and biosludge.
> 
> Given that few, if any, AIO's last more than 5 years, and that they usually degrade in performance from corrosion or gunking, we can assume that getting the right dilution, and quality of water and additives is beyond the capabilities of most AIO manufacturers. My own watercooling days are almost 20 years behind me now but I couldn't keep the loop gunk-free for more than a year with what I had available to me in those days.


Thanks for that. The guide is indeed fuzzy on how hot the biofouling of glycols begin to occur. Okay, we mixed up big on that one. Glycols do precipitate corrosion themselves, too. We lower operating temperatures not to prevent glycol biofouling, but to inhibit corrosion because all rust is basically salt and salt is an electrolyte making short work of negating anticorrosion additives. Also, hardness cause 'sludge' and scales, although I recall biofouling somewhere.

I might have to recall, but 3% salt makes the %0.1 acid work as 1% equivalent.*

Metals like copper and iron are also super active and possibly offer higher kA reaction turnover rate.

PS: I checked, 2% salt makes 0.5% acid work its way as if 1%.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Feb 1, 2020)

sneekypeet said:


> My office is always 22.5-23.5 *C   This is summer or winter, and humidity is always in the range of 45-50%, and is why I feel more than confident not needing to use a delta to hide other variables.



Same its why I test at the temperatures i test at in a controlled environment. While not exactly scientific lab level of control its enough where I don't need to use delta temperatures or other nonsense to keep things "fair"

Might put in a request to get one of these for review in the near future. Last Zalman review fell through because the cooler's plastic fantastic shrouds conflicted with the VRM heatsinks on the board.


----------



## Xzibit (Feb 2, 2020)

If you do get it. Don't put the center Noctua fan on the same tower like he did on the NH-D15 when comparing


----------



## freeagent (Feb 2, 2020)

Looks like a Cooler Master, but nicer


----------



## lorry (Feb 2, 2020)

With my Noctua NH DI-15. I added a  Noctua NF-F12 PWM to it so that it sat at the height as the 14 but gave me the extra clearance for the Corsair Dominator Platinum, Just!

Mind you, needn't have bothered, as I've not noticed any discernable difference in temperatures at all.


----------



## GlacierNine (Feb 3, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> If you do get it. Don't put the center Noctua fan on the same tower like he did on the NH-D15 when comparing


I really suspect that makes little to no difference. It looks goofy, but you can see that the blades of each fan are pushing the air in the same direction, so unless that 2-3mm gap between fin stack and fan makes much more difference than I think it does, the performance there shouldn't be appreciably different.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

kit guru has posted the written review









						Zalman CNPS20X and CNPS17X: Noctua didn’t see this coming! - KitGuru
					

Since publishing our review of Zalman's new CNPS20X and CNPS17X air coolers, we have received a numb




					www.kitguru.net
				






sneekypeet said:


> My office is always 22.5-23.5 *C   This is summer or winter, and humidity is always in the range of 45-50%



Then it's anecdotal because the temp & humidity is always constant for you.  Once again, not saying you are wrong but it would be an interesting test to do to see if the effect is major, little to no impact, or somewhere in between. 



crazyeyesreaper said:


> Same its why I test at the temperatures i test at in a controlled environment. While not exactly scientific lab level of control its enough where I don't need to use delta temperatures or other nonsense to keep things "fair"



My first real job out of school (going back just over two decades) I was doing QA testing for a printer company that specialized in office as well as industrial inkjet printing.  We tested our own printers and the competition in large walk in environmental test chambers, each as big as a bedroom.  We would freeze the units at 0c as if they were transported on a plane, then let them run at 15c 20% humidity and 80%.  Follow that up with 40c at 20% humidity and then 80%.  The chambers were so well insulated that just with the lights on the temp inside would easily get into the 90sF.  Back then those chambers had to be $100k, well over that by now...have W1zzard spring for one!


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 3, 2020)

In this review of a case, unless I am seriously mistaken, the same "guru" has mounted the psu upside down:










That alone would make me question the validity of anything he has to say in relation to tech. However, I admit that I could be wrong and there may be a valid reason for taking this approach.

I would welcome the return of Zalman to the cooler market, but Noctua's strong position is by no means under threat.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

Mr McC said:


> In this review of a case, unless I am seriously mistaken, the same "guru" has mounted the psu upside down:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can mount the PSU anyway you want as long as the fan is not blocked.  People will scream about fan up or down all day swearing to the almighty there is only one proper way (similar to toilet paper rolls being pull up or down).  In that particular case I would mount the PSU fan up as well in you have the PC on a carpet (as I do with my gaming PC).   I would also recommend a mesh cover for the fan to prevent any screws from falling into the PSU if you like to tinker with your hardware.


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 3, 2020)

> You can mount the PSU anyway you want as long as the fan is not blocked.  People will scream about fan up or down all day swearing to the almighty there is only one proper way (similar to toilet paper rolls being pull up or down).  In that particular case I would mount the PSU fan up as well in you have the PC on a carpet (as I do with my gaming PC).   I would also recommend a mesh cover for the fan to prevent any screws from falling into the PSU if you like to tinker with your hardware.



Don't wish to derail the thread, but whilst it is clear that it can be done either way, surely the gpu fan and the psu fan will fight with one another when it is mounted upside down? I think that is poor practice, but each to their own.


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 3, 2020)

Mr McC said:


> Don't wish to go derail the thread, but whilst it is clear that it can be done either way, surely the gpu fan and the psu fan will fight with one another if you follow this example? I think that is poor practice, but each to their own.


In fact, the gpu will pull dirty air from the back grills, I run cellophane over all the side grills just to keep dust out because there is no stopping incident air with a negative gradient. It is better to let the psu do the dirty work.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

Mr McC said:


> Don't wish to derail the thread, but whilst it is clear that it can be done either way, surely the gpu fan and the psu fan will fight with one another when it is mounted upside down? I think that is poor practice, but each to their own.



Not to get into the minutia of the details but hey the thread is derailed a bit;

Here is the test equipment in that case

*Processor:* Intel Core i7-7820X 8 cores/16 threads, 3.5GHz all cores.
*Motherboard:* ASRock X299M Extreme-4
*CPU cooler:* Noctua NH-D9L
*Memory:* 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3200MHz
*Graphics:* Nvidia RTX 2080 8GB Founders Edition
*Power supply:* Seasonic Focus Plus 1000W Gold
*Storage drive:* Intel P760 M.2 SSD
*OS:* Windows 10









						SilverStone Precision PS15 Review – A £40 Bargain! - KitGuru
					

SilverStone Precision PS15 is all about the money and a low price that comes in under £40. The Preci




					www.kitguru.net
				




that PSU has a hybrid fan and with total system pull at under 400w, it should not be on too much if at all.  

I will also post Jonny Guru's response on fan up or down
_
I personally would run the PSU fan up.  I've just found that fan down the PSU that heat rises into the PCB.  If it's mounted fan up, you still don't have to worry so much about the hot air in the case because the fan shouldn't spin to suck that air into the PSU very often and the PSU's PCB is actually farther from that heat source. _


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 3, 2020)

Fair enough, there is method in the madness.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

Mr McC said:


> Fair enough, there is method in the madness.


I would note; I would never run the PSU fan up with liquid cooling because one little leak...


----------



## Vario (Feb 3, 2020)

Mounting two fans onto one fin stack doesn't matter. Mine are mounted that way on my used  PHTC14PE heatsink, as the silicon strips were pre-applied.
Power supply  fan up vs fan down doesn't matter unless you are on a carpet (fan up) or have watercooling (fan down).


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

Mr McC said:


> Fair enough, there is method in the madness.



Doesn't apply in this case (get it?) but if there is a PSU shroud as well, as there is in my current case (H500M), then to have the PSU with the fan pointing up would mean that it is drawing, (or trying to draw) air in when it is up against the PSU shroud. My case sits on my desk but if it were to be carpet located I would suggest a plinth of some kind

This is like so many other aspects of building, differences of opinion. AMD/Intel being the biggest I would say but another is that vertical GPU mounts are a no no. and it's about time that case manufacturers actually realised that this is 2020 and began to design for vertical PCI2 risers and mounting and then have someone come up with a multiple PCIe mount.
The Cooler master vertical GPU mount is one of the best, as it places the GPU a good 9cm away from the glass side panel, but does of course then remove all other PCIe use, a multiple PCIe mount would avoid that, as would a rotatable PCIe slots on the back if the case.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

lorry said:


> Doesn't apply in this case (get it?) but if there is a PSU shroud as well, as there is in my current case (H500M), then to have the PSU with the fan pointing up would mean that it is drawing, (or trying to draw) air in when it is up against the PSU shroud. My case sits on my desk but if it were to be carpet located I would suggest a plinth of some kind



1. CM needs to stop calling all their cases "500"
2.  It is weird how they just closed off PSU shroud in the K500, MB500, 500M &500P rather then leave air slots like in the TD500 or just open ended like the H500.
3. They REALLY need to stop calling all their cases 500!


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> 1. CM needs to stop calling all their cases "500"
> 2.  It is weird how they just closed off PSU shroud in the K500, MB500, 500M &500P rather then leave air slots like in the TD500 or just open ended like the H500.
> 3. They REALLY need to stop calling all their cases 500!



Can I 'like' this 500 times?  
 GN agrees with you there, he had a mini rant about coolermaster and a few others naming them *500*
But I'm not sure if air slots are really needed? There is usually a ton of ventilation coming from the back, bottom and unseen sides of a PSU shroud


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

lorry said:


> Can I 'like' this 500 times?
> GN agrees with you there, he had a mini rant about coolermaster and a few others naming them *500*
> But I'm not sure if air slots are really needed? There is usually a ton of ventilation coming from the back, bottom and unseen sides of a PSU shroud



Now the thread is completely off the rails but you are the OP so it's your thread

I'm looking at the pics and the top of the 500M is completely closed off.   They use a slanted peace of metal of close off the front of the shroud so how would front to back ventilation enter the shroud?  The the far side is closed off with another panel.  The only opening I see is on the bottom.

top of the shroud





peace of metal closes off the front of the shroud




side panel finishes off the enclosure


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> Now the tread is completely off the rails but you are the OP so it's your thread
> 
> I'm looking at the pics and the top of the 500M is completely closed off.   They use a slanted peace of metal of close off the shroud so how would front to back ventilation enter the shroud?  The the far side is closed off with another panel.  The only opening I see is on the bottom.
> 
> ...



It isn't sealed off, there is bottom ventilation with a removable m pull out mesh. Which is why you mount the PSU upside down, as is shown in your pics. You mount it with the fan facing down to provide air intake. It also doesn't show it very well until you zoom in a fair bit, but there are quite a few cable cutouts along the side that joins with the MB tray, also there is another cutout underneath the PCI slots

BTW, No idea where you got the pics from but I could have done with them when I was planning etc, lol


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

lorry said:


> It isn't sealed off, there is bottom ventilation with a removable m pull out mesh. Which is why you mount the PSU upside down, as is shown in your pics.



Yes, that was my point.  They really only give you one option for mounting the PSU (unless you really know the fan won't be spinning) by closing off much of the other sides.


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> Yes, that was my point.  They really only give you one option for mounting the PSU (unless you really know the fan won't be spinning) by closing off much of the other sides.



Agreed, but where's the problem with that? It is exactly the same with many other cases with PSU shrouds, you gain by hiding away the clutter of cables, but lose in that there is only one realistic way to mount the PSU. It's called choice.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

lorry said:


> Agreed, but where's the problem with that? It is exactly the same with many other cases with PSU shrouds, you gain by hiding away the clutter of cables, but lose in that there is only one realistic way to mount the PSU. It's called choice.


Many other "traditional" layout cases will offer you the option with a vented top like the Be Quiet 500, NZXT 510, Phanteks 400 and/or have an open front like the silverstone RL08, Lian Li Lancool, CM H500.  

Vented top example




open shroud front example


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

dirtyferret said:


> Many other "traditional" layout cases will offer you the option with a vented top like the Be Quiet 500, NZXT 510, Phanteks 400 and/or have an open front like the silverstone RL08, Lian Li Lancool, CM H500.
> 
> Vented top example
> 
> ...




Choice.
No one is forcing Anyone to buy a particular product. They are not attempting to hide the fact that the shroud is mainly closed in, don't like that? Don't want that? Then don't buy it, that simple.
The same with the new Zalman, don't like their 'fancy' fins? Then don't buy it. 
I thought that one of the main reasons for being in a forum like this was that we do not want standardization. We want fans with high static pressure for our radiators so the choice is there for us. Zalman have come up with what looks to be decent competition to Noctua, Great, as that not only gives people another option when it comes to quality air cooling, but will likely push Noctua to respond. Just like AMD have done to Intel with zen2.


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 3, 2020)

lorry said:


> Choice.
> No one is forcing Anyone to buy a particular product. They are not attempting to hide the fact that the shroud is mainly closed in, don't like that? Don't want that? Then don't buy it, that simple.
> The same with the new Zalman, don't like their 'fancy' fins? Then don't buy it.
> I thought that one of the main reasons for being in a forum like this was that we do not want standardization. We want fans with high static pressure for our radiators so the choice is there for us. Zalman have come up with what looks to be decent competition to Noctua, Great, as that not only gives people another option when it comes to quality air cooling, but will likely push Noctua to respond. Just like AMD have done to Intel with zen2.


There has been a general disregard for keeping up with standard practices in the industry.
Linus is the person of notice in this medium. I hope it goes well for him and doesn't feel too burnt out. It has been his reputation delivering how gtx480 could be made to run super quietly  rather in a super high tier cosmos case that comes with its own gpu airduct through the back. It is all about standardizations - oems push us for shroudless aircooler designs that work best in open benches rather than closed cases, so we fall to jumped conclusions.
I hate to say, but linus has pulled down more exclusive pc testing essays by possible vendor notices than all of us would care to know...


----------



## HTC (Feb 3, 2020)

Standards are as must, IMO: it's why we can generally swap fans with different brand's coolers, to name but one example.

In this specific case (these Zalman coolers), the fact the fans are proprietary (and i'm referring to the mounting mechanism) is a huge no-no and may well be a negative factor when choosing a cooler. This exact same cooler but with standard mounting, so that other fans from other manufacturers could be used would be more appealing, IMO.

Unless ofc i'm misinterpreting this, and standard fans can be used with these Zalman coolers without resorting to some form of modification.


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

agreed standards, but where does it say Anywhere that a PSU Has to have a 'right side up' ?

I guess as well that until someone tries, the compatibility with other brands fans is an unknown? Some clips might work perfectly fine, others may not


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 3, 2020)

lorry said:


> agreed standards, but where does it say Anywhere that a PSU Has to have a 'right side up' ?


No one has stated PSU has to have a right side up, my post only said it's "weird" as in unusual to see a case with such a close off shroud.   Cooler Master (or any other brand) can include a bucket of water for the PSU housing for all I care, I would just find such an offering "weird".


----------



## Chrispy_ (Feb 3, 2020)

Mr McC said:


> In this review of a case, unless I am seriously mistaken, the same "guru" has mounted the psu upside down:
> 
> That alone would make me question the validity of anything he has to say in relation to tech. However, I admit that I could be wrong and there may be a valid reason for taking this approach.



Two valid reasons to mount the PSU that way up:
1) The case is going to be put on a carpeted floor that would suffocate the PSU intake and potentially allow it to overheat.
2) A long GPU (like the 2080) in that small case blocks a lot of airflow from bottom to top. Using the PSU this way up adds an exhaust air flow route to the bottom zone of the case.

If the case is narrow and an open-cooler GPU occupies the majority of the width, mounting the PSU this way up is essential to prevent the GPU from recycling its own exhaust which raising temps and fan noise considerably.


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

just do a quick search for PSU shroud, theres quite a number,  


			PSU shrouds - Google Shopping


----------



## AsRock (Feb 3, 2020)

As soon as i seen this fan made me think of the Arctic Cooling fans they been doing for a long time now, how ever this does look some what a better design as it could be used as a in or outtake fan.

2 things stopped me buying them which was max RPM and the rubber that holds the fans in one piece, again some thing this fan has a advantage on, well the rubber part at least.  be nice to see one that could be used as a in\outtake fan.

AC fail now even now 8+ years later and not done it.


----------



## lorry (Feb 3, 2020)

I'll still be interested to see if his results are replicated in other reviews, specifically GN


----------



## Xzibit (Feb 3, 2020)

GlacierNine said:


> I really suspect that makes little to no difference. It looks goofy, but you can see that the blades of each fan are pushing the air in the same direction, so unless that 2-3mm gap between fin stack and fan makes much more difference than I think it does, the performance there shouldn't be appreciably different.



It's on an open test bench as noted by KitGuru so any additional gap will pull in air.  As a reviewer he should follow Noctua manufacturers instructions and if he isn't he should note it in his reviews.


----------



## sneekypeet (Feb 3, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> It's on an open test bench as noted by KitGuru so any additional gap will pull in air.  As a reviewer he should follow Noctua manufacturers instructions and if he isn't he should note it in his reviews.



This. Soooooo much of this.


----------



## GlacierNine (Feb 4, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> It's on an open test bench as noted by KitGuru so any additional gap will pull in air.  As a reviewer he should follow Noctua manufacturers instructions and if he isn't he should note it in his reviews.


Again, I don't think it will make a damn bit of difference whether it's on an open test bench in the arctic or in a hotbox in Brazil during El Nino. The gap doesn't suddenly become more or less of an issue because of what's occuring around it unless you're running a forced-air setup like a server. There's more than enough gap between a side panel and the tower in most cases to make this just as irrelevant as it is on a testbench.


----------



## delshay (Feb 4, 2020)

I be interested in a 140mm downdraft version of this heatsink, if they ever make one.


----------



## kapone32 (Feb 4, 2020)

delshay said:


> I be interested in a 140mm downdraft version of this heatsink, if they ever make one.


 Might be too big.


----------



## GlacierNine (Feb 4, 2020)

kapone32 said:


> Might be too big.


The problem with downdraft is always that they screw with case airflow and perform worse. 

VRMs don't need the level of active cooling downdraft coolers provide. They can survive well over 130C and will never reach that unless they're being seriously abused in a case with no exhaust fans. There's no real reason to do downdraft unless you're going for an SFF build.


----------



## HTC (Feb 4, 2020)

delshay said:


> I be interested in a 140mm downdraft version of this heatsink, if they ever make one.



You mean Zalman's version of this:




This is actually the cooler i have in my system, except i can't use the bottom fan due to not enough RAM clearance.


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 4, 2020)

HTC said:


> You mean Zalman's version of this:
> 
> View attachment 144000
> 
> This is actually the cooler i have in my system, except i can't use the bottom fan due to not enough RAM clearance.


Keeping the heatpipes towards the back? They can radiate a lot to vrms on their own.


----------



## HTC (Feb 4, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Keeping the heatpipes towards the back? They can radiate a lot to vrms on their own.


This cooler has two orientations.

Here's TPU's review: it was reviewed in April 2011 ...

I bought mine almost 10 years ago.


----------



## lorry (Feb 4, 2020)

HTC said:


> This cooler has two orientations.
> 
> Here's TPU's review: it was reviewed in April 2011 ...
> 
> I bought mine almost 10 years ago.



be interesting to see how it stacks up with todays coolers


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 4, 2020)

HTC said:


> This cooler has two orientations.
> 
> Here's TPU's review: it was reviewed in April 2011 ...
> 
> I bought mine almost 10 years ago.


That is the gpu roaster orientation.


----------



## HTC (Feb 4, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> That is the gpu roaster orientation.


Not really, IMO.


lorry said:


> be interesting to see how it stacks up with todays coolers


This cooler has been discontinued for several years now. The only reason i'm even able to use it with my Ryzen setup is because Noctua sent me their AM4 mounting kit when i asked them to: took about a week to arrive.

EDIT

Noctua later introduced the NH-C14S to replace the NH-C14 and it too has been reviewed @ TPU: you should be able to infer the temps from the other coolers in the review. This new version has a different fan and also only ONE of them, though you can use a 2nd one but you'd need to buy it separately.


----------



## dirtyferret (Feb 4, 2020)

lorry said:


> be interesting to see how it stacks up with todays coolers



This is the latest review I know about the C14s(single fan) and they use an OC 6700k.  I would say at stock CPU settings while gaming it can offer similar performance as the U14s (an excellent cooler even for today).   OC an octa core CPU would probably be too much for it.


----------



## delshay (Feb 4, 2020)

HTC said:


> You mean Zalman's version of this:
> 
> View attachment 144000
> 
> This is actually the cooler i have in my system, except i can't use the bottom fan due to not enough RAM clearance.



YES. The Noctua C14 is currently king of the downdraft, I have two of them with IHS soldered to it's base. A Zalman version should beat it.


----------



## HTC (Feb 4, 2020)

delshay said:


> YES. The Noctua C14 is currently king of the downdraft, I have two of them with IHS soldered to it's base. A Zalman version should beat it.


Judging by OP's video, yes.


----------



## RealNeil (Feb 4, 2020)

Vario said:


> Only way to know is to try different fans on the Zalman.


Or try identical fans on both of the coolers.


----------



## freeagent (Feb 5, 2020)

Only 300w TDP?

*yawn*



That Noctua looks like an old Scythe knock off.


----------



## Kissamies (Feb 5, 2020)

HTC said:


> This cooler has two orientations.
> 
> Here's TPU's review: it was reviewed in April 2011 ...
> 
> I bought mine almost 10 years ago.


And thanks to Noctua's awesome support to older coolers, that will probably last another 10 years.


----------



## HTC (Feb 5, 2020)

Chloe Price said:


> And thanks to Noctua's awesome support to older coolers, that will probably last another 10 years.



Would not be surprised if it were to happen.


----------



## lorry (Feb 5, 2020)

He has done a follow up video with a different Noctua. Same result, Zalman wins, but this time by only a couple of degrees


----------



## John Naylor (Feb 5, 2020)

I don't have the time for video reviews and most of them (Gamers Nexus, Jayz. Linus, etc) are shall we say "less than reliable".  So I went to the site and read the review.   While notable, I'll wanna see tests on CPUs more within the range of average on heat output  ... and inside a case rather than in open air.  The  noise results are peculiar in that they are significantly higher than most tests I have seen in the past.

But, Noctua has not been the top dog in the air cooler market for several years now ... Scythe had matched / exceeded the D15s performance in 2014 at half the price with the arrival of the Mugen Max, then stepped it up in 2017 with the Fuma and most recently the Fuma 2.  Not that these wou;ldn't fare well against the Sythes sas the performance differences have been typically 1 - 2 C  and 2-3 dbA.


----------



## lorry (Feb 5, 2020)

Adding a case adds in variables


----------



## Mr McC (Feb 5, 2020)

Yes, but I'm not sure the results would be the same within the confines of a case, I am suspicious of the Zalman fans and given that it appears difficult to simply swap them out, according to the 2nd video, and in view of the inferior mounting mechanism, I would choose the Noctua over the Zalman, there is little in it in any event. Don't get me wrong, the Zalman is undoubtedly an extremely good cooler.


----------



## RealNeil (Feb 5, 2020)

Two Noctuas, two results. Interesting.
One thing about the Noctua coolers is that they give you the mounting kits for all of the sockets. (for free)
So with Noctua, you're future-proofed for years to come. They also use industry-standard fan sizes on their coolers.

So for me, Noctua is the better value.


----------



## Xzibit (Feb 5, 2020)

lorry said:


> He has done a follow up video with a different Noctua. Same result, Zalman wins, but this time by only a couple of degrees



I still don't under stand why hes presenting proper orientation (Noctua only). Then during testing footage he reverses the fans so fans are sucking in air from the I/O & VRMs . I would have no problem if hes doing it for all coolers but he doesn't specify.


----------



## lorry (Feb 5, 2020)

Xzibit said:


> I still don't under stand why hes presenting proper orientation (Noctua only). Then during testing footage he reverses the fans so fans are sucking in air from the I/O & VRMs . I would have no problem is hes doing it for all coolers but he doesn't specify.



He says in the second video that was B role only, or so he says


----------



## Xzibit (Feb 5, 2020)

lorry said:


> He says in the second video that was B role only, or so he says



He says that about the first video as to why he had the fans like that. In the testing footage look at the running test bed. He starts showing it *@8:19.*  I thought he was showing the same loop again from the end of the video but at the end of the video he has the window shades slightly open.


----------



## micropage7 (Feb 6, 2020)

FreedomEclipse said:


> You lose a lot of pressure from that silly fan design.


yeah it looks like the fan eats more space than traditional fan design


----------



## darkbreeze (Feb 9, 2020)

lorry said:


> well whatever they are doing, they are doing it right, as it's around 7 degrees cooler than the Noctua.


It's not. It's "supposedly" 3 degrees cooler, after a re-test, but if you go read the comments there you will find that there are some pretty glaring flaws in some of the methodology used. I'm not sure I'd believe ANY of the results until we get something similar from some separate sources. The fact that there were advertisements showing those results UP on the Zotac website the very same day those results were released, makes it incredibly suspicious. Sure, other companies like Noctua, Thermalright, Scythe, etc. do use the testing results from various tech sites on their web pages if they are favorable, but that's generally not a synchronized activity. It's something that tends to happen at some point, but it's at some point down the road.

This is more like it was pre-arranged. I can't say that makes it invalid, but it sure as heck makes you WONDER if it's invalid or at least suspect. I don't ever trust the results of just one site anyhow especially if there is a reason why you might not such as in a case like this. So it's not just that it's Zotac, who has a history and track record that are all over the map, both high and low, with products that have performed well AND products that were real turds, but all some really fantastically bad behavior on the part of the company as well. I think most people can agree than when a fan's own specifications indicate it has a maximum db of 28 and is being compared to a Noctua fan with a maximum db of 19.2, but the test results show the 28db fans having a lower overall SPL when paired up during testing, that something is definitely off in the way the tests were done, or something.



Xzibit said:


> I still don't under stand why hes presenting proper orientation (Noctua only). Then during testing footage he reverses the fans so fans are sucking in air from the I/O & VRMs . I would have no problem if hes doing it for all coolers but he doesn't specify.


That whole review is non-standard and incredibly.......questionable.


----------



## toyo (Feb 15, 2020)

I watched both videos and found them intriguing. I am using a D15S which works great so there's no reason for me to change, and also have a few oldie Zalman CPUs from the past. I have a CNPS10x Optima on my FX8350 system and it always worked well, so I'm not that surprised that Zalman can challenge Noctua.
Maybe the competition will result in lower prices. Cooling is somewhat of a weird investment (IMO), there's a pretty hard border you will hit quite early on and after that it's rather hard to improve temps. For example, me changing from low end Arctic 120mm fans to Noctua's PWM 140mm fans barely did anything, both noise and performance, yet the price was quite something.


----------



## Zach_01 (Feb 15, 2020)

toyo said:


> me changing from low end Arctic 120mm fans to Noctua's PWM 140mm fans barely did anything, both noise and performance, yet the price was quite something.


Better fans will benefit cooling, when they are the actual restrictive point. If the "bottleneck" in heat dissipation is elsewhere (like case airflow, room temp, paste material and application) then better fans wont work much. Or you have already max the cooler's capacity (unlikely).


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 15, 2020)

toyo said:


> I watched both videos and found them intriguing. I am using a D15S which works great so there's no reason for me to change, and also have a few oldie Zalman CPUs from the past. I have a CNPS10x Optima on my FX8350 system and it always worked well, so I'm not that surprised that Zalman can challenge Noctua.
> Maybe the competition will result in lower prices. Cooling is somewhat of a weird investment (IMO), there's a pretty hard border you will hit quite early on and after that it's rather hard to improve temps. For example, me changing from low end Arctic 120mm fans to Noctua's PWM 140mm fans barely did anything, both noise and performance, yet the price was quite something.


I also did a discovery. There should be two tiers of cooling performance: one is small cpu with low heat which most coolers deal with appropriately. The other is small cpu with high heat. Those two make the exceptions come out. Most heatsinks can deal with big cpu dies with proportionate heat output, however these 10nm & 7nm will bring them to their knees.


----------



## HTC (Feb 15, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> I also did a discovery. There should be two tiers of cooling performance: one is small cpu with low heat which most coolers deal with appropriately. The other is small cpu with high heat. Those two make the exceptions come out. Most heatsinks can deal with big cpu dies with proportionate heat output, *however these 10nm & 7nm will bring them to their knees*.



That's because the heat is concentrated in a much smaller area so it's much harder to deal with.

Having 80º spread out over an area of ... say ... 250mm squared is much easier to deal with than the same temp spread out over and area of ... say ... 100mm squared.


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 15, 2020)

HTC said:


> That's because the heat is concentrated in a much smaller area so it's much harder to deal with.
> 
> Having 80º spread out over an area of ... say ... 250mm squared is much easier to deal with than the same temp spread out over and area of ... say ... 100mm squared.


I had high aspirations of vapour coolers, however this looks like wicks kill much of the keenness of vapor chambers.
I'm utterly disappointed - where's the wicking performance when you most need it?
They added a 1400w thermal transmittance(14°C delta temperature gradient) over a 100w heat dense 1x1cm² heat source. So, they have 49°C reaching the coldplate, ambients being 35°C. Think damn it, they must have left something out!

So, ryzen isn't just 100 w/cm². It is 95w/0.8=19% more at default, maybe more overclocked.


----------



## Zach_01 (Feb 15, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> So, ryzen isn't just 100 w/cm². It is 95w/0.8=19% more at default, maybe more overclocked.


The single CCD 105W TDP CPU (3800X) is actually way more than this.
Each CCD is 74mm² and in the case of 3800X it produces at stock max allcore boost around *1.45W* per 1mm². (145W/cm²).
The dual CCD, or the single CCD 65W parts have far less.
3600X (1CCD 95W) has around *1.2W/mm²*
3600/3700X (1CCD 65W) *0.8W/mm²*
3900Χ/3950Χ (2CCDs 105W)* 0.7W/mm²*


----------



## mtcn77 (Feb 15, 2020)

Zach_01 said:


> The single CCD 105W TDP CPU (3800X) is actually way more than this.
> Each CCD is 74mm² and in the case of 3800X it produces at stock max allcore boost around *1.45W* per 1mm². (145W/cm²).
> The dual CCD, or the single CCD 65W parts have far less.
> 3600X (1CCD 95W) has around *1.2W/mm²*
> ...


I might have been overly pessimistic, but I think it goes on about increasing the base diameter of the vc plate. It can be done, me thinks. It would still be an overwhelming problem what to make of that coldplate.

Okay, it doesn't bring an associated temperature drop...


----------



## Zach_01 (Feb 15, 2020)

mtcn77 said:


> Okay, it doesn't bring an associated temperature drop...


No, at least not a relative one. Some are at the edges of the stack of being worst and best but all have very similar thermals.


----------



## delshay (Feb 15, 2020)

lorry said:


> He has done a follow up video with a different Noctua. Same result, Zalman wins, but this time by only a couple of degrees



I also questioned why two or more of the same heatsink perform a little different by very small margins, & this is what I think is happening, but I could be wrong.

The heatpipe themselves internally is slightly different, but I think the real culprit is the soldering between the coldplate & the heasink fins.

What am saying here is the amount of solder between coldplate & fins, ie physical contact point.

I have seen one or two users post poor soldering on heatsink for GFX cards on REDDIT Website. These users were complaining that their cards were overheating even when they change to better thermal paste. I wish I kept those photos because it showed clear cut poor soldering.
What made matters worse, one user was refused RMA. Anyone that looked at it can clearly see it was a manufacturing fault.

What am trying to say here is, soldering quality is going to vary ever so slightly between heatsinks of the same make & model. So I guess you will see anything from 1 to 4c difference. I personally encountered 2c difference between two Noctua C14.

EDIT: Found one of the threads  




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/9i71jh


----------



## FreedomEclipse (Apr 26, 2020)

Its 'average'


----------



## Vario (Apr 26, 2020)

He calls it average but its matching top coolers.  Average in the upper end segment?  The appearance and marketing seems to be the downfall in his review.



> Performance is overall average when looked at in the most objective sense: It’s about where the Noctua NH-D15 is, +/-1C (often better by 1C in a highly-controlled bench, so functionally equal in the real world), it’s also roughly tied to the similarly large Deep Cool Assassin III, and it’s beaten easily by the Arctic Liquid Freezer II closed-loop liquid cooler (280mm). The CNPS20X, therefore, is not ground-breaking and doesn’t eviscerate the long-standing NH-D15, but also doesn’t crumble under design failures like the Corsair A500 did. Thermally speaking, it’s about equally good to the D15. We wouldn’t rush out and buy it as if it’s world-leading in performance, but if you like how it looks better than other large air coolers tested here, and if you simply don’t want the (often) equally-priced Liquid Freezer II 280, then the CNPS20X is a fine choice. Its downsides are primarily ones which don’t impact product performance, like overly stupid marketing and a storied history wrought with bankruptcy, fraud, record-setting prison sentences, and ads in exchange for removing reviews.











						Zalman CNPS20X CPU Cooler Review & Benchmark vs. Noctua NH-D15, Arctic Liquid Freezer II
					

he company’s newest product is its CNPS 20X tower cooler, which we've purchased for review today against other big air coolers and liquid coolers. Competing products include the Noctua NH-D15, Deep Cool Assassin III, Corsair A500 (if you can call it “competition”), and Arctic Liquid Freezer II...




					www.gamersnexus.net


----------



## lorry (Apr 26, 2020)

Vario said:


> He calls it average but its matching top coolers.  Average in the upper end segment?  The appearance and marketing seems to be the downfall in his review.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Average in that it is the Noctua's equal in performance.

On that basis in my prime I was the equal of Usain Bolt then, as I was average at sprinting.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Apr 26, 2020)

I have one in for testing. Already did photos and preliminary performance evaluation. So expect a review to go live at some point. What I can say is performance is good it is slightly better than a D15 but its also louder. For all the details well you will just have to wait.


----------



## Vayra86 (Apr 29, 2020)

crazyeyesreaper said:


> I have one in for testing. Already did photos and preliminary performance evaluation. So expect a review to go live at some point. What I can say is performance is good it is slightly better than a D15 but its also louder. For all the details well you will just have to wait.



Mentally subbed!


----------



## londiste (Apr 29, 2020)

I would be surprised if CNPS20X would not be able to perform better than NH-D15:


Spoiler


----------



## lorry (Apr 29, 2020)

having just put in my first custom loop, I say for the noise levels alone, water cooling is worth it


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Apr 29, 2020)

londiste said:


> I would be surprised if CNPS20X would not be able to perform better than NH-D15:
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Well it does beat it but its about 5 dBA louder to do it. For shits and giggles im gonna rig some Noctua fans to it and see how it performs. I am willing to bet money that the open frame fans while not bad at all are while nice to look at impacting performance so just to make sure i cover all bases and don't have to listen to constant bitching Ill double check and see what I find.


----------



## Cranky5150 (Apr 29, 2020)

I also watched the review from Steve over at GN on this one. It performed as well as the Noctua did but being larger than the noctua. Also he had major issue with Zalman as a company and all of the shady ways that the former ownership ran it. Me personally i would choose the Noctua any day of the week .


----------



## CrAsHnBuRnXp (Apr 29, 2020)

lorry said:


> Definition of silly - "having or showing a lack of common sense or judgement; absurd and foolish. "
> 
> show how with that definition it is any of those? As I don't see if it's taken the 'crown' away from Noctua as The best


It's all in ones perception of the definition in their eyes.


----------



## crazyeyesreaper (Apr 29, 2020)

Well ran some tests with the Noctua fans performance stayed the same but noise levels dropped by 1 to 2 dBA. Likely the fin design from zalman improves cooling but also results in more turbulence and thus higher noise levels  

So suffice to say

Noise:
CNPS20X 48 dBA
CNPS20X + Noctua D15 fans 46-47 dBA
NH-D15 43-44 dBA

FPU temps
CNPS20X 86
CNPS20X + Noctua D15 fans 86
NH-D15 88

Noise matching
88C on both. So i would say they are pretty much equal overall.


----------



## John Naylor (Apr 30, 2020)

1.  If we are talking fans, Noc "lost the title 7+ years ago.
Take a Noctua cooler and replace the fans with Phanteks and what happens 

a)  At max speed, the Phanteks beats the Noc fans by 3C
b)  At same rpm, the Phanteks beats the Noc fans by 6C


			Phanteks PH-F140(XP, SP, SP_LED) Fans: Testing -  Phanteks PH-F140 (XP, SP, SP_LED) Case Fan Review - Page 3
		










						First 140 mm Fan Roundup: Noctua, Phanteks, Xigmatek
					

140 mm fans from Noctua, Phanteks, and Xigmatek battle in our latest fan roundup with one emerging as a clear winner in both thermal performance and acoustics. May 21, 2013 by Lawrence Lee Last month we staged an epic shoot-out among some popular 120 mm fans. Some great sounding fans emerged but...




					silentpcreview.com
				





> he Phanteks PH-F140HP/TS is the clear winner in every respect. It edged out the new Noctua's every step of the way, delivering the best overall results of any fan we’ve tested thus far. To top it off, it had cleanest, smoothest sound of all the new fans in this roundup



So "no "boubt adout it" there 

The Silent Wing 3s going by my ears alone ...

2.  Now when testing we can always prove our person biases right be just picking the test that supports a preconceived conclusion.  Or if you have different goals, then your best may not be someone elses.   Do we want a cooler that excels in things we never do like FPU tests or do we want one optimized for performance in things we do every day.  I wish sum1 would add an "application based benchmark" like RoG Real Bench as opposed to Prime and AIDA FPU.  me, Im all about noise ... happily give up 1C for 1 dbA

If we talking coolers, again various Scythe models (Mugen Max / Fuma / Fuma 2), all things considered, edge the Noc 
Prime = Noc edged Scythe  by 1C
AIDA 64 - Scythe edges Noc by 1C
Noise - Scythe edges by 1 dbA
Cost - Scythe = 50% of Noc
Scythe wins 3 outta 4








						Scythe Fuma Review
					

The Scythe Fuma might be quite small for a dual tower design, but should not be looked down upon, offering exceptional performance and little noise. It has all the right attributes to sneak up on and dispatch the competition.




					www.techpowerup.com
				




Prime = Noc edged Scythe by 2C
AIDA 64 - Scythe edgesNoc by 1C
Noise - Scythe edges by 2 dbA
Cost - Scythe = 65% of Noc
Scythe wins 3 outta 4








						Scythe Fuma 2 Review
					

The Scythe Fuma 2 is a compact dual-tower cooler that manages to deliver exceptional performance while also being nearly silent and fitting where other massive coolers cannot due to its 154.5 mm height. Truly like a ninja, the Fuma 2 is hiding in the shadows, poised to strike down its competition.




					www.techpowerup.com
				




To my view... it's reminds me of when gramps used to say "Oh that [insert doo dad or gadget here] is the *Cadillac* of [whatever category it falls into".  Not saying that the Noc D15 isn't a great cooler or the fans aren't among the best ... just don't see that it has a right to '"claim the title"


----------



## lorry (Apr 30, 2020)

From what I can see they are all so close to each other that many of the results fall within GN 1C degree of error as they love to quote. Certainly there is now no clear winner as in the past when Noctua stood out and that is to be expected, success is often 'copied' and worked/improved on. All the top coolers are so close to each other in performance that any of them would be a good investment, with next to nothing between them. Once you add in the factors of case variance, then each individual persons setup and Then the variations between individual fans and it is impossible to say which is 'The best'.
End of the day, let's be grateful that there is now a choice of three or four coolers that will give good performance.


----------



## dirtyferret (May 1, 2020)

John Naylor said:


> 1.  If we are talking fans, Noc "lost the title 7+ years ago.
> Take a Noctua cooler and replace the fans with Phanteks and what happens
> 
> a)  At max speed, the Phanteks beats the Noc fans by 3C
> ...





John Naylor said:


> 1.  If we are talking fans, Noc "lost the title 7+ years ago.
> Take a Noctua cooler and replace the fans with Phanteks and what happens
> 
> a)  At max speed, the Phanteks beats the Noc fans by 3C
> ...



Ive built with the phanteks 120SP, 140MP, and 140SP (twice).  They are well built and offer very good performance but they are also one other thing...loud!  I returned one pair of 140SP thinking them defective only to find the replacements were just as loud even when I set rpm as low as 800.  Ive never heard so much noise from a 140mm fan at such a low rpm.  The 140MP fans are just as bad at making noise. I like my phantek's case but the stock fans came right out and were replaced by Noctua.  I don't purchase Noctua fans for performance as much as the fact their fans offer the best noise to performance ratio.  My Noctua fans remain silent even when past 1000rpm, if I have to sacrifice 2c in a benchmark I never run...so be it.


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