# Built in batteries.. good or bad..



## trog100 (Nov 21, 2016)

they are becoming pretty common but are they a good thing.. 

cons.. the life of the device is governed by the life of the battery.. 

pros.. a thinner device and cheaper to make.. 

trog


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

Built in batteries can also be replaced, but mostly not by the user.(Every smartphone repair shop will do it though, or if you want to keep the warranty, every manufacturer repair service will)

The good thing about built in batteries is the longer warranty. Since it can not be replaced by the user, the warranty is 2 years (same as device), which is not the case with user replaceable batteries( 1 year)


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## trog100 (Nov 21, 2016)

two years is okay for a cheaper device but not that long for an expensive device.. an expensive laptop would be in service for maybe five or six years.. i dont see anything with a built in battery doing this.. 

i dont see a two year warranty as being a good thing.. at least not one to justify built in batteries.. to be honest i think the practise comes close to taking the piss.. he he

trog


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

If you have the money for an expensive device, you have the 30-50 bucks every 2-3years to pay the manufacturers service fee to exchange the battery for you.


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## Caring1 (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> If you have the money for an expensive device, you have the 30-50 bucks every 2-3years to pay the manufacturers service fee to exchange the battery for you.


No!


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## Frick (Nov 21, 2016)

trog100 said:


> two years is okay for a cheaper device but not that long for an expensive device.. an expensive laptop would be in service for maybe five or six years.. i dont see anything with a built in battery doing this..
> 
> i dont see a two year warranty as being a good thing.. at least not one to justify built in batteries.. to be honest i think the practise comes close to taking the piss.. he he
> 
> trog



Phones are different from laptops though. You don't (mis)handle a laptop the samr way you do a phone.


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> No!



Do you own a car? Do you take it to the shop for servicing?


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## Caring1 (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> Do you own a car? Do you take it to the shop for servicing?


Yes, and No!


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## Frick (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> Do you own a car? Do you take it to the shop for servicing?





Caring1 said:


> Yes, and No!



The question is only relevant if you have a new car, in which case the answer should definitely be "yes", depending on how your insurance is affected.


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> Yes, and No!



Really, so you for example change the clutch on your car yourself? So you must own all the special tools needed to do it. Yeah right...


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## trog100 (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> If you have the money for an expensive device, you have the 30-50 bucks every 2-3years to pay the manufacturers service fee to exchange the battery for you.



i recon your are being a tad optimistic there.. 

i do know that super thin means built in batteries like it or not.. but its also a kind of built in obsolescence i aint over keen on.. 

trog


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

trog100 said:


> i recon your are being a tad optimistic there..
> 
> i do know that super thin means built in batteries like it or not.. but its also a kind of built in obsolescence i aint over keen on..
> 
> trog



Why optimistic? If a device with a built in battery has a problem with the battery within the 2 year warranty period it will be exchanged free of charge. And if it has a problem after the warranty has expired, any repair shop will exchange it for you for around 30 bucks(+ the cost of the battery ofcourse). I really dont see what the problem is here?


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## Frick (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> Really, so you for example change the clutch on your car yourself? So you must own all the special tools needed to do it. Yeah right...



This is getting off topic, but that is very possible. A lot of people mend their own cars, some even do it as a hobby. I do it because I can't afford to have someone else do it. (And clutches are easy, depending on the model. )


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

Frick said:


> This is getting off topic, but that is very possible. A lot of people mend their own cars, some even do it as a hobby. I do it because I can't afford to have someone else do it. (And clutches are easy, depending on the model. )



Sorry for the offtopic...just tried to make an example. And since this is TechPowerUp, a lot of us mend our computers/gadgets on our own. And replacing a battery in a lap-top is much easier to do than replace a cars clutch.


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## cornemuse (Nov 21, 2016)

This issue of built-in batteries seems a bit much for me, have to plug it into your usb port/whatever to charge, cant use it while charging, they now sell portable 'recharging' whatever-u-call-em's, now you have two items to recharge. If youre on (for instance!) the Trans Siberian Railroad & your batts go dead, you are pretty much stuck, but you can buy aaa, aa, ie, most batts, anywhere in the world. without a charger or a place to plug it into, well, , , , I take a cheap mp3 player to the gym, I keep a baggie with a few aaa's in it, player goes about a week for me, one minute I'm back in business, they have 110 outlets at the gym but who's gonna walk away from their fone, player, etc, while its charging?? Some do but work out on same machines for like 45 mins = flabby biceps but hard glutes!!

-c-


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## Caring1 (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> Really, so you for example change the clutch on your car yourself? So you must own all the special tools needed to do it. Yeah right...


Yes I can and have changed multiple clutches on vehicles at home, without "special" tools.
Maybe you just don't know what you are doing.


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> Yes I can and have changed multiple clutches on vehicles at home, without "special" tools.
> Maybe you just don't know what you are doing.



So you can change a clutch, but cant change a built-in battery. Man, i feel sorry for you...


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## Smanci (Nov 21, 2016)

Do I consider planned obsolescence and cashing in on "premium service" good? Not really.


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## Caring1 (Nov 21, 2016)

heky said:


> So you can change a clutch, but cant change a built-in battery. Man, i feel sorry for you...


You need to learn to read.
I have also changed non serviceable batteries too, I don't see the need to pay others to do something that is simple.
Save your pity for the mirror.


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## hat (Nov 21, 2016)

It's honestly not hard to change a "non-replacable" battery. All that means is it's probably stuck in the phone with a sticky pad or something under 100 torx screws with a flat ribbon cable connecting it to the mainboard.


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## heky (Nov 21, 2016)

Caring1 said:


> You need to learn to read.
> I have also changed non serviceable batteries too, I don't see the need to pay others to do something that is simple.
> Save your pity for the mirror.


Wow...you have an attitude...and you obviously missed the whole point of the thread, since that is what i have been saying all along, built-in batteries are not that hard to change...and if someone doesnt feel up to the task to do it themselves, its not that expensive either. And just so you know, i have changed my fair share of built-in batteries of phones and laptops, since i did work in that business before changeing to automotive.(Am building Turbochargers for a living at the moment - working for one of the biggest Turbocharger manufacturers in world)


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## Komshija (Nov 22, 2016)

The main argument for manufacturers to implement "non-replaceable" batteries is extra profit/cheaper costs of the production. Russian guys made good videos on YT about replacing such batteries on some devices.


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## trog100 (Nov 22, 2016)

Komshija said:


> The main argument for manufacturers to implement "non-replaceable" batteries is extra profit/cheaper costs of the production. Russian guys made good videos on YT about replacing such batteries on some devices.


 
apart from that the form factor is what its about.. shaving the odd millimeter of these phones phablets and laptops seems a major selling point.. having a (user) replaceable battery isnt..

i always think 300 to 500 charge/discharge cycles as the life time of a lithium battery.. many a phone in daily use will hit these figure easily within two years.. oddly enough when these phones do fail its now called a battery fault.. he he

things that dont get used as much will have a reasonable life span before the battery wears out so will some phones but in the end it does come down to how much use a device gets..

being able to replace a battery in any decent device used to be considered a must have.. now it dosnt seem to be this way.. and its all just to make things a bit thinner.. he he

the other downside is a major one for me.. its now impossible to extend run time by carrying spare batteries.. something i consider an essentail.. maybe power banks have taken over here but i aint so sure.. they aint quite the same as quickly bunging in another charged battery..

trog


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## heky (Nov 22, 2016)

trog100 said:


> apart from that the form factor is what its about.. shaving the odd millimeter of these phones phablets and laptops seems a major selling point.. having a (user) replaceable battery isnt..
> 
> i always think *300 to 500* charge/discharge cycles as the life time of a lithium battery.. many a phone in daily use will hit these figure easily within two years.. oddly enough when these phones do fail its now called a battery fault.. he he
> 
> ...



Li-Po batteries, which are mostly used in built-in devices are more on 1000+ charge/discharge cycles.

Sure...haveing to either quick charge the device or charge it from a power bank is not as convenient as just replacing a battery, but think about it, how often do you really have to do that. Also, the devicess you can buy today have much longer on-battery time, than the old ones did, simply becouse of the new technology being more efficient...so the need to change the battery during the day is declining too.


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## trog100 (Nov 22, 2016)

heky said:


> Li-Po batteries, which are mostly used in built-in devices are more on 1000+ charge/discharge cycles.
> 
> Sure...haveing to either quick charge the device or charge it from a power bank is not as convenient as just replacing a battery, but think about it, how often do you really have to do that. Also, the devicess you can buy today have much longer on-battery time, than the old ones did, simply becouse of the new technology being more efficient...so the need to change the battery during the day is declining too.



1000 plus.. do you have anything to back that up with.. sounds a bit too good to be true to me.. ??

and new technology might get more efficient but any gain there will quickly be gobbled up fancy new features requiring more power..

but to me built in batteries belong with planned obsolescence and cheap disposable devices..

so far not everything comes with none user replaceable  batteries but its definitely a growing trend.. to me its not a good trend and i doubt i will ever be convinced otherwise.. 

one other thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that these batteries simply degrade with age.. the higher level of charge they are kept at the quicker they degrade..  how quickly isnt exactly known.. at least not by me but degrade they do..

trog

ps.. i think the samsung recall was down to built in batteries.. trying to make the batteries too thin.. it would not have happened with tougher more rigid replaceable  batteries..


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## Aquinus (Nov 22, 2016)

Meanwhile, I'm stilling using an almost 5 year old iPhone 4s and the battery still works just fine. I'm not worried about it.


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## heky (Nov 22, 2016)

trog100 said:


> ps.. i think the samsung recall was down to built in batteries.. trying to make the batteries too thin.. it would not have happened with tougher more rigid replaceable batteries..



Wow...and you know that based on what?

About charge/discharge cycles:

"Rechargeable battery life is typically defined as the number of full charge-discharge cycles before significant capacity loss. Storage also reduces capacity.

Manufacturers' information typically specify lifespan in terms of the number of cycles (e.g., capacity dropping linearly to 80% over 500 cycles), with no mention of chronological age. Research rejects this common industry practice. On average, lifetimes consist of 1000 cycles, although battery performance is rarely specified for more than 500 cycles. This means that batteries of mobile phones, or other hand-held devices in daily use, are not expected to last longer than three years. Some batteries based on carbon anodes offer more than 10,000 cycles."


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## AsRock (Nov 22, 2016)

I keep away from built in battery items as much as possible, how ever you can normally pick up a replacement online but then your running a great risk of buying a fire hazard to be.

So to me they are bad and is a no buy item for me. Buying a item to be crippled due to a battery is just not except-able.

And there is the requirement of battery charging that people demand which is fast charging which only destroys battery's even faster and left no option to slow charge options.


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## hrp32 (Nov 22, 2016)

I think it's definitely a bad thing to have a non-removable battery.
I remember those times I had a second battery for my LG L90 and whenever there was no power outlet or even a computer it was pretty useful. But nowadays I think they want to sell you those stupid Powerbanks.  But you can stick to LG if that's your only concern.

The thing I worry about more are those hardware buttons which occupy half an inch for just three buttons and I can't understand why many people prefer hardware buttons!


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## mad1394 (Nov 22, 2016)

Looking at LG V20 or LG G5 for this exact reason. I don't like non replaceable batteries.
Samsung could have avoided the note disaster if they could have handed out free new batteries to their customers. 
Apples battery life is awful after about 1 year of use. Be ready to plug it in shortly after lunch. If that is not your experience than you won the battery lottery.


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## Komshija (Nov 23, 2016)

trog100 said:


> apart from that the form factor is what its about.. shaving the odd millimeter of these phones phablets and laptops seems a major selling point.. having a (user) replaceable battery isnt..


That seems to be very important selling point, but I think that the most important reason for manufacturers is cost reduction and thus bigger profit margin. It's not that they are going to lower consumer prices because of the "non-replaceable" batteries.

Many people still don't get it that phones thickness is not so relevant, unlike its length and width. In other words, marketing brainwashed people about phone thickness. It doesn't make any difference if a phone is 10 mm thick or 6 mm thick when its dimensions surpass 140 mm in length and 70 mm in width. This is because 140 mm length 70 mm width are pretty much the maximum for "comfortable" handling for an average person.
A few years ago researchers concluded that 4.3" smartphones are the best compromise between comfortable handling and usability. Today, we have 5.0" phones which are not very comfortable for use and 5.5" phablets which are way too big to be comfortable. They even don't fit comfortably in the pockets and there's no way that you can use them with one hand, unless you are 2 meter (6'7") giant.




trog100 said:


> i always think 300 to 500 charge/discharge cycles as the life time of a lithium battery.. many a phone in daily use will hit these figure easily within two years.. oddly enough when these phones do fail its now called a battery fault.. he he
> things that dont get used as much will have a reasonable life span before the battery wears out so will some phones but in the end it does come down to how much use a device gets..


 There are many ways to prolong battery life, but hardly anyone uses them. For the example, my battery lasts approx. 5 days before I need to recharge. People look at me strangely when I show them my battery statistics. 
First, turn off automatic brightness and set it to manual to about 40-50%. Mine is at ~40%. Turn off GPS, turn off wifi when you don't need it, turn off automatic synchronization and synchronize manually only when you need it. ...and there you go! Now battery will last for 3+ days without charging. 



trog100 said:


> one other thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that these batteries simply degrade with age.. the higher level of charge they are kept at the quicker they degrade.. how quickly isnt exactly known.. at least not by me but degrade they do..


 Batteries tend to produce extra heat when charging and it affects their lifetime; apart from charging/discharging cycles which slowly but surely reduce their lifetime.


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## trog100 (Nov 23, 2016)

your battery will last even longer if you do not use your phone all.. 

but having to piss about with so many power saving measures just to prolong battery life does make a strong case against built in batteries.. its a lot easier to bung in a new battery when old one wears out.. or should i say it used to be.. he he..

shaving that tiny fraction of the thickness of these devices is also pretty dumb.. something samsung have just found out.. making them thinner is the main reason i see for built in batteries.. they can claim they have made their new 6 inch screen sized phone smaller than ever.. 

dont get me wrong here.. when i look at my super thin phone i am kind of amazed they have managed  to cram a 3200 battery in there.. something that in the past i would have thought impossible..

but i cant help but think such a device bunged in someones back pocket and sat on a few times aint exactly safe.. they are a perfect fit for back pockets.... 

i also expect to see more fire hazard built in battery recalls in the future.. flexy flexy flexy fizzle fizzle fizzle.. he he

trog

ps.. the desire for fast charging i think is also connected to the inability to simply swap out a spare battery when more run time is needed.. fast charging for sure wont help battery life times or fire hazard risks..

built in batteries is something we are gonna see more of thats for sure.. and i do admit to being a little old fashioned in my thinking.. he he


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## Komshija (Nov 23, 2016)

trog100 said:


> shaving that tiny fraction of the thickness of these devices is also pretty dumb.. something samsung have just found out.. making them thinner is the main reason i see for built in batteries.. they can claim they have made their new 6 inch screen sized phone smaller than ever..


I agree. They need a new marketing "tool", so phone thickness fits in there perfectly. If they want to improve smartphone, they could make bigger screen-to-body ratio and keep phone dimensions within reasonable limits.



trog100 said:


> they are a perfect fit for back pockets....


 Unless you need to sit down, run or ride a bicycle. 



trog100 said:


> i also expect to see more fire hazard built in battery recalls in the future.. flexy flexy flexy fizzle fizzle fizzle.. he he


 Quality and safety will always suffer when companies become too hungry for profits. It's capitalism. 



trog100 said:


> ps.. the desire for fast charging i think is also connected to the inability to simply swap out a spare battery when more run time is needed.. fast charging for sure wont help battery life times or fire hazard risks..


 I would say it's general stupidity. People tend to spend to much time on their smartphones, so no wonder that they need to charge them every day or even twice a day. For internet and some business work, there's a PC or a laptop. 
I know people who have good PC's and laptops but rather choose to surf on their smartphones, while their computers collect dust. Beyond me. My ex is one of such weirdos. Yep, her battery barely endured a day without charging.



trog100 said:


> built in batteries is something we are gonna see more of thats for sure.. and i do admit to being a little old fashioned in my thinking.. he he


 Yep, it seems that non-replaceable batteries and "super comfortable" smartphones (this: https://data.motor-talk.de/data/gal...oqueta-com-1407081141-6759564648084126302.jpg) that are only 4,1 mm thick are our future; because their length and width seem totally irrelevant to some people and manufacturers. I might start a business by producing backpacks for "supet-thin-extra-comfortable 20" phablets that, wait for it, are "super thin and can fit into your backpack!".


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## Frick (Nov 24, 2016)

hat said:


> It's honestly not hard to change a "non-replacable" battery. All that means is it's probably stuck in the phone with a sticky pad or something under 100 torx screws with a flat ribbon cable connecting it to the mainboard.



Often you have to use heatguns to remove glass. Or some kind of suction cups. Which isn't hard _if you've done it before_. If you're not very practical by nature and upbringing and have no time learning how to be practical, it is a biatch to do. And even then you have to have the time for it.


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## hat (Nov 24, 2016)

Yeah, I had a bad experience trying to replace the glass on my Moto G. But that didn't have anything to do with the battery, though...


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 5, 2017)

I used to be dead against them, but now I don't see a problem. I am getting over 5 hours screen on time on my old(now) HTC one m8. Plus I have just rooted it and have got Android 7.1.1 nougat running fine on it. Its still a sweet phone.

I don't see the point turning everything off to make the battery last longer. I use my phone heavily and still get over 5 hours active(screen on) I just charge it every night. If you want your battery to last longer, just turn it off, and only turn it on when you want to text or call.


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## Atomic77 (Jan 7, 2017)

Ain't all tablets and phones have internal battery? I know my ipad 2 mini does its a rechargable one.


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## AsRock (Jan 7, 2017)

tigger said:


> I used to be dead against them, but now I don't see a problem. I am getting over 5 hours screen on time on my old(now) HTC one m8. Plus I have just rooted it and have got Android 7.1.1 nougat running fine on it. Its still a sweet phone.
> 
> I don't see the point turning everything off to make the battery last longer. I use my phone heavily and still get over 5 hours active(screen on) I just charge it every night. If you want your battery to last longer, just turn it off, and only turn it on when you want to text or call.




WOW a whole 5 hours, and if the battery was changeable you would get more.


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## micropage7 (Jan 8, 2017)

personally i dont trust with internal battery since
1. you cant check the battery condition *Physically*
2. for some cases the only way to turn off the device is by taking out the battery
3. some cases when you replace the battery the phone just feels different than before

but the trend is going to get internal


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jan 12, 2017)

i just got a galaxy s7 and love it to bits already, i don't care if it has a fixed battery. I could have got something different, but it is a damn nice phone.


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## AsRock (Jan 12, 2017)

I believe the Galaxy 8 is due April if memory serves me right, with some thing i thought was dumb a wrap around screen.


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## Jetster (Jan 12, 2017)

Topic is a little vague. If you don't like build in batteries in your phone, Gopro, laptop, tablet, then don't buy it. I find it less necessary to replace batteries. They last plenty long now. Unlike 10 years ago I went threw 6 batteries on my phone. I have a Gopro that it 4 years old and still hold a charge for 2.4 hours. I change phones about every two years. Laptops yea I replace the batteries sometimes


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## eidairaman1 (Jan 26, 2017)

Jetster said:


> Topic is a little vague. If you don't like build in batteries in your phone, Gopro, laptop, tablet, then don't buy it. I find it less necessary to replace batteries. They last plenty long now. Unlike 10 years ago I went threw 6 batteries on my phone. I have a Gopro that it 4 years old and still hold a charge for 2.4 hours. I change phones about every two years. Laptops yea I replace the batteries sometimes



unless if there is a defect with it.

I replaced one in my S5 that was BNIB from June 2016, 2 months ago(caused bootloop)- low n behold the battery that came with the phone was Made in China, the replacement was Made in Vietnam and No issues at all


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## monim1 (Feb 4, 2017)

I agree with you built-in battery makes the phone thinner. You can replace the built-in battery. You may not do it by yourself but a mechanic or service center can do it for you.


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## eidairaman1 (Feb 5, 2017)

monim1 said:


> I agree with you built-in battery makes the phone thinner. You can replace the built-in battery. You may not do it by yourself but a mechanic or service center can do it for you.



rather not pay someone.


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 13, 2017)

Im very late to this but I prefer user swappable batteries as it adds more longevity to devices but manufacturers these days dont want a phone to last years because they lose money due to you not buying the next big thing they release. Making the device a non-user swappable battery means that you become more reliant on the manufacturer should something go wrong not to mention the whole thing about making the device smaller/thinner etc etc -- I dont think that, thats a legit reason. When the phone dies after 1000 charges, you'll be looking at getting a new phone, many people i know would prefer to get a completely new and uptodate handset then get their damaged old one repaired.

For instance the Samsung Galaxy Note 4 is still a very very capable handset despite being 3 years old and still has many years to go providing the battery stays decent.



trog100 said:


> ps.. i think the samsung recall was down to built in batteries.. trying to make the batteries too thin.. it would not have happened with tougher more rigid replaceable  batteries..



the Samsung recall was because the design of the phone was 'too aggressive' and they did not leave space for the battery to thermally expand when the battery got warm. They tried to make the phone as thin as possible and they made a mess of it. Samsung tried to innovate but got it wrong


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## Deleted member 24505 (Feb 14, 2017)

FreedomEclipse said:


> Im very late to this but I prefer user swappable batteries as it adds more longevity to devices but manufacturers these days dont want a phone to last years because they lose money due to you not buying the next big thing they release. Making the device a non-user swappable battery means that you become more reliant on the manufacturer should something go wrong not to mention the whole thing about making the device smaller/thinner etc etc -- I dont think that, thats a legit reason. When the phone dies after 1000 charges, you'll be looking at getting a new phone, many people i know would prefer to get a completely new and uptodate handset then get their damaged old one repaired.
> 
> For instance the Samsung Galaxy Note 4 is still a very very capable handset despite being 3 years old and still has many years to go providing the battery stays decent.
> 
> ...




I think the Note 4 is one of the best phones Samsung has ever made.


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## PoptartBoi (Feb 14, 2017)

Aquinus said:


> Meanwhile, I'm stilling using an almost 5 year old iPhone 4s and the battery still works just fine. I'm not worried about it.



Same here, but don't get the best life even with a new battery.


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## FreedomEclipse (Feb 14, 2017)

PoptartBoi said:


> Same here, but don't get the best life even with a new battery.



Probably due to fake batteries or ios has a tonne of bloat added over the years


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## Atomic77 (Feb 18, 2017)

Ipads have built in batteries and are ment to be rechargeable they last a long time. and they can be used when plugged in.


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## WiseMe (May 5, 2017)

I still prefer removable batteries because they are easy to replace. Built-in batteries are also fine and can also last for years. However when the time that the battery dies you must get a technician to replace the battery for you. Or if you want to take risk buy some tools and follow some YouTube tutorials


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## The Data Master (May 17, 2017)

My only gripe with built in batteries is that you cannot do a hard reset if the phone freezes. Just have to wait it out.


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## RejZoR (May 24, 2017)

I didn't like built in batteries either, but I now have Huawei Ascend P7 with built in battery for like 2 years and so far, I don't really have problems with it. Even when I was fiddling with firmware and I had massive lockups and problems, I never had problems recovering it into operating state. And I had it freeze few times and it just somehow sorted out. So, hard reset with battery removal wasn't really wasn't ever needed. Can be convenient, I agree, but I didn't really need it.


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## Rogge (Jul 12, 2017)

I had an Acer Liquid S55 before my new phone. Lasted for around 2 years. The battery is huge in that one!
 Connected via a smaller connector to it's mainboard. Used a guitar pick to open it up.
However, what really amazed me was the size of the electrical engine to manage "vibrations", thin as paper and with a "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" sticker on it..

My new Phicomm does have a changeable battery. But I could change it on the S55 if I could find a new one somewhere.


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