# Valve Inflicts European Gamers with $1 = €1 Equation



## btarunr (Dec 19, 2008)

At the time of preparing this report, US $1.42 makes a Euro. Here's what Valve seems to be pricing its games and those of its affiliates on the Steam platform as: $1 = €1, ignoring exchange rates, meaning that if a product costs say $20 on Steam, you will be charged €20 (approximately $27.86), if you are buying from the EU. Several game titles have been priced in this fashion. Call of Duty 4, priced at US $49.99 ($59.4 after applicable taxes) is tagged at €49,99 ($70 before applicable taxes). 

In reaction to this, disgruntled European gamers have started protesting this move by Valve on online forums, an example of which can be found on Valve's own Steam Users' Forums. Also found on the same board is a user group named 1€ ≠ 1$. Certain groups have even started reporting this to the European Commission Consumer Cell. The gamers allege that they have been given a largely unfair pricing scheme with products on the Steam platform, that violates trade laws. The Steam platform serves gamers from around the world with a common platform to purchase games, and coordinates multiplayer gaming and updates. An unhappy consumer base from one of the largest markets in the world could certainly impact on its revenues.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## hrvoje (Dec 19, 2008)

Very nice X-mas present.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 19, 2008)

If that applys to the uk,i will still use my steam account,but theres no way i will be buying anything else off steam.

Its gonna spell the end for steam in europe.


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## wiak (Dec 19, 2008)

tigger said:


> If that applys to the uk,i will still use my steam account,but theres no way i will be buying anything else off steam.


UK and US got diffrent prices vs EU, last time i checked UK was part of EU


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## Gam'ster (Dec 19, 2008)

tigger said:


> If that applys to the uk,i will still use my steam account,but theres no way i will be buying anything else off steam.
> 
> Its gonna spell the end for steam in europe.



+1, it seems games are now breaking away from their US prices as hardware does in the euro zone.


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## wiak (Dec 19, 2008)

hmm


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## tostator (Dec 19, 2008)

That equation is usual here, in Spain even with hardware...


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## ShadowFold (Dec 19, 2008)

Man I feel bad for my European brothas  I hope they change this! Everyone should stop buying games off of steam(unless its Half-Life 3, sorry I gotta have my HL fix lol) until they fix this BS.


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## Aeon19 (Dec 19, 2008)

Steam...sincerely... f*ck you !


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## GFC (Dec 19, 2008)

tostator said:


> That equation is usual here, in Spain even with hardware...


Same here with hardware in Lithuania.. always used to be that way..


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## csendesmark (Dec 19, 2008)

I am a steam funboy, but time to try Games for Windows - Live


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 19, 2008)

This doesn't make any sense. I love Steam and I'm an American capitalist pig but this just seems like a bad business move. Especially from a company thats know to make good ones. Valve has always had a deep love for the players. I really wonder what the logic behind this is.

btarunr if you can please keep us up to date on this? I'm betting there is more to this than just greed on Valves part. Maybe some sort of new trade tax or something.


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## btarunr (Dec 19, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> if you can please keep us up to date on this?



Will do.


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## mdm-adph (Dec 19, 2008)

Does it cost more for Steam to operate in Europe?  If so, raised prices may be justified for European customers, though the way they're doing it seems to be shoddy.


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## rpsgc (Dec 19, 2008)

mdm-adph said:


> Does it cost more for Steam to operate in Europe?  If so, raised prices may be justified for European customers, though the way they're doing it seems to be shoddy.



Why the hell should it cost more? It's fucking digital distribution ffs. We already pay VAT now this bullshit? Screw you Valve, go fucking burn in Hades.


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## Swansen (Dec 19, 2008)

Well, i guess my question is how much are games normally in Europe?  like are games for the PS3 and 360, 60 euros or are they less?  If they are, then this pricing scheme makes sense to me, or, possibly all the money made in Europe stays in Europe ??


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## rpsgc (Dec 19, 2008)

For all I care games here could cost 100 €. That still doesn't make it right. $1 is not 1€


I buy all my games from the UK anyways, stupidly cheap


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## erocker (Dec 19, 2008)

mdm-adph said:


> Does it cost more for Steam to operate in Europe?  If so, raised prices may be justified for European customers, though the way they're doing it seems to be shoddy.



I would guess most deffinitely!  High taxes.


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## rpsgc (Dec 19, 2008)

erocker said:


> I would guess most deffinitely!  High taxes.



Oh really? So why do we have to pay VAT on top of the game's price? Double VAT eh?


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## erocker (Dec 19, 2008)

rpsgc said:


> Oh really? So why do we have to pay VAT on top of the game's price? Double VAT eh?



I'm not talking about the consumer.  I'm talking about the taxes that a company has to pay.  They aren't going to just pay the government and lose money, they are going to charge the people that live in this high tax bracket to offset their costs.  Blame your government for their ridiculously high taxes.  It helps no one.


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## kid41212003 (Dec 19, 2008)

It's because the lowest wage for US is 8$ per hour, and in EU, it's still 8EU, but then EU dollar is > US dollar.

I'm not sure, just joking around....


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm willing to bet this has something to do with European taxes. Erocker is right. Valve isn't going to take the hit for the government. Its going to pass it on to the people who voted for them. Its the same all over the world.

Now could one of you guys from across the pond tell me what you pay for an Xbox360 or PS3 game? In the U.S. we average 59.99 for a console game. If you pay the same but in Euros then I know EXACTLY what happened with Valve.

The thing is console games in the U.S. were an average of 49.99 for about 10 years. Then with this "Next-gen" came out they went up 10 bucks. To me it made no sense for such a huge jack in price. Sure maybe 2 or 3 bucks for inflation but not 10.

However if you guys in Europe pay 59.99 Euros and we pay 59.99 dollars then we both are getting screwed because the manufactures are playing "fair" with the consumer. Basically we both are paying more than what the game is "worth" so that the console makers are not playing favorites with a country by keeping the prices the "same". If any of you guys know marketing or have been involved with it you know exactly what's going on.

This is assuming you pay the same sticker price only in Euros. The difference with Valve is they don't care. They set thier games at one cost and pass any duties/taxes on to the customer. They seem like the bad guys doing this but they are really just being true to the customer. This is something I can respect but its HORRIBLE marketing.

Again I dont know what prices you guys pay but if you pay the same sticker than what I said I bet holds true.


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## Haytch (Dec 19, 2008)

I cant believe i actually installed Steam once upon a time.
Death to Steam, and any company willing to join forces with them.

The fact that these prices might prove to be better for the rest of us, it still doesnt erase the fact that its going thru Steam.


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## Swansen (Dec 19, 2008)

erocker said:


> I'm not talking about the consumer.  I'm talking about the taxes that a company has to pay.  They aren't going to just pay the government and lose money, they are going to charge the people that live in this high tax bracket to offset their costs.  Blame your government for their ridiculously high taxes.  It helps no one.


I can see that, that makes sense to me.



TheMailMan78 said:


> Now could one of you guys from across the pond tell me what you pay for an Xbox360 or PS3 game? In the U.S. we average 59.99 for a console game. If you pay the same but in Euros then I know EXACTLY what happened with Valve. Sure maybe 2 or 3 bucks for inflation but not 10.
> 
> This is assuming you pay the same sticker price only in Euros. The difference with Valve is they don't care. They set thier games at one cost and pass any duties/taxes on to the customer. They seem like the bad guys doing this but they are really just being true to the customer. This is something I can respect but its HORRIBLE marketing.


Yeah, i'm still wondering about this also, and yes, i was going to say the 1=1 thing is a horrid way of putting it, if they left that out, i don't think there would have been such a big of fuss.


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## DonInKansas (Dec 19, 2008)

Steam is bogus.  Anyone charging the same amount of money for a download as I can go to a store and pick up a hard copy of the game for is ripping off the consumer.

It's just licensed piracy IMO.


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## Pixelated (Dec 19, 2008)

It seems even Valve is not immune to the overwhelming greed that is consuming this industry. Another example is Epic Games talking about how to make the game experience less enjoyable for those who buy used games unless they get ANOTHER cut off the top (Does Ford or Toyota get a cut of the sales when you sell your car?)  . EA and Ubisoft effectively doing the same with PC games infected with InSecuROM and limited installations . 

Valve will probably resolve this issue by adjusting the exchange rate on Steam purchased games but it's still sad that it takes 60+ pages on their forum with threats of being reported to the EU commission to make them act. It just feels like they were going to continue gouging EU gamers until someone finally caught on. Very sad and says a lot of the industry in my opinion.


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## erocker (Dec 19, 2008)

Then what is to keep Steam from saying "screw it", we just aren't going to sell anything in the EU?  You know what I'd do if my local government started to over-tax my business.  Move!  If I didn't have the choice to move, I would have to raise my prices. I'm not in the business of supporting my own government by losing money, I'm in the business to hopefully make myslef money.


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## Ahhzz (Dec 19, 2008)

hahahahahahahahahahah


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## Pixelated (Dec 19, 2008)

erocker said:


> Then what is to keep Steam from saying "screw it", we just aren't going to sell anything in the EU?  You know what I'd do if my local government started to over-tax my business.  Move!  If I didn't have the choice to move, I would have to raise my prices. I'm not in the business of supporting my own government by losing money, I'm in the business to hopefully make myslef money.



What do mean overtaxed? It seems to me that the users are paying the taxes not Valve. Besides Steam makes too much money from selling games in the EU to simply say screw it. In fact that's flat out ridiculous and will never happen.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 19, 2008)

You guys trashing Steam don't seem to realize what Valve has done for this industry and continues to do. Steam currently works VERY well and you pay full price for these games for a number of good reasons. Like I said before we all go and burn Valve at the steak I think we need to learn WHY they did this. I cant imagine their marketing department being this stupid. There has to be more layers to this cake. Someone is being greedy. Lets just make sure we know who it is first. The EU, US or Valve.

If by chance its the EU governments or the U.S. I wouldn't suggest you stop supporting Valve. These guys have always had the best interest of the gamer in mind. Without them I think we would have an entire industry run in EA or Blizzard style. Think about that nightmare before we judge.


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## mdm-adph (Dec 19, 2008)

rpsgc said:


> Why the hell should it cost more? It's fucking digital distribution ffs. We already pay VAT now this bullshit? Screw you Valve, go fucking burn in Hades.



Like others have said on here, it's not the taxes _you_ pay -- it's the taxes Steam has to pay for doing business in Europe.  They're probably quite a bit higher than they are in America, so in turn, they pass on the cost of that to European consumers.

Even if it's a "completely digital content distribution system," they still have to deal with European banks and regulatory agencies to get European gamers' credit card payments accepted, and doing these things incur taxes and fees.

Like I said, though, they could be a bit more delicate about doing it, rather than treating all currency as if it was equal (which it's not).


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## rpsgc (Dec 19, 2008)

I just love how people manufacture some barely credible excuses just to defend Steam and Valve. Oh they pay taxes? You have proof?

Do you even know how VAT works?!



Of course, in Europe there are taxes aplenty! It is the land of taxes! Taxes, taxes and taxes! It is a land of strange people and strange taxes and greedy governments who overtax everything and everyone, ooo beware!! Oh poor poor american corporation, it had to pay the evil evil European taxes all by itself, wah wah.


So what's your excuse for Steam games costing more than retail?


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 19, 2008)

rpsgc said:


> I just love how people manufacture some barely credible excuses just to defend Steam and Valve. Oh they pay taxes? You have proof?
> 
> Do you even know how VAT works?!



First of all welcome to the forums rpsgc. 

Second of all be careful how you approach your points and opinions. You can and WILL be ripped apart by some pretty intellectual people here. After all this isn't a Pokemon forum.


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## Swansen (Dec 19, 2008)

rpsgc said:


> I just love how people manufacture some barely credible excuses just to defend Steam and Valve. Oh they pay taxes? You have proof?
> 
> Do you even know how VAT works?!



???? thats assuming just as much, considering, you don't know these people, and considering that all the information about how VAT works is publicly available, and yeah, if they do business in Europe, then they pay taxes, i'm pretty sure its that simple.  On that, one person suggested that there is more government taxes to be paid in Europe than here in the US, not all of us.  Lastly, with the way US gov is right now, big business hardly has to pay out anything to the government right now, so yes, i'm sure Valve is taxed heavier in Europe right now.


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## mdm-adph (Dec 19, 2008)

rpsgc said:


> I just love how people manufacture some barely credible excuses just to defend Steam and Valve. Oh they pay taxes? You have proof?
> 
> Do you even know how VAT works?!
> 
> ...



No one's talking about Steam's games costing more than retail (at least I don't think).

The discussion is about why a product costs more in the EU than it does in the US, and the decision about why is leaning towards the increased costs of doing business in the EU.

Now, there's no need to be inflammatory -- no one's asking for pity for Steam/Valve.  They knew the costs of doing business in the EU, and they still chose to do so -- I really don't think they'd have chosen anything else;  the EU is a huge market, and one that a business can't really ignore, even if the costs/fines are greater there (just look at Microsoft!).


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## xu^ (Dec 19, 2008)

id never buy a game off steam ,its cheaper to order a boxed retail copy from somewhere like Play.com ,and it has a real disk and manual 

Steam has always been a total ripoff for uk gamers.


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## rpsgc (Dec 19, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> First of all welcome to the forums rpsgc.
> 
> Second of all be careful how you approach your points and opinions. You can and WILL be ripped apart by some pretty intellectual people here. After all this isn't a Pokemon forum.



First of all I registered here before you, so please... enough patronizing.

Second, I don't care how "intellectual" they might be, as long as they don't have proof to what they're saying then it's nothing more than assumptions and opinions, not fact.

Third, ad hominem already? Please, if you're going to call me an idiot at least be man enough and do it directly instead of dropping hints about me being some 13yo immature newbie who just registed and likes Pokemon and can't form a coherent post/chain of thought.


So by your logic Amazon (US) also pays taxes to sell to European customers. Nevermind the fact that they operate and are based off the US. Because the EU forces American corporations on American soil to pay taxes if they want to sell to some random chap in the EU. Right? And Steam is based off an American server.


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## btarunr (Dec 19, 2008)

erocker said:


> Then what is to keep Steam from saying "screw it", we just aren't going to sell anything in the EU?



The retail hard-copies of Valve games sold in stores. Non-Valve games are sold anyway. The real "scr** it" will come from the consumers, soon enough if this pricing scheme stays on.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 19, 2008)

Swansen said:


> ???? thats assuming just as much, considering, you don't know these people, and considering that all the information about how VAT works is publicly available, and yeah, if they do business in Europe, then they pay taxes, i'm pretty sure its that simple.  On that, one person suggested that there is more government taxes to be paid in Europe than here in the US, not all of us.  Lastly, with the way US gov is right now, big business hardly has to pay out anything to the government right now, so yes, i'm sure Valve is taxed heavier in Europe right now.


Well FYI the U.S. government taxes all business in the U.S. about 30% across the board. Capital gains, Customs, ect. Ireland is around 11%. However its the import tax to IP's "Intellectual properties" that Europe has gone wild on. This is why I think Steam had to jack up their prices. But I think its a safe assumption. So yeah I defend Valve currently because I thought you were considered innocent until proven guilty in the free world.

I know its in style to bash the "rich" or large cooperations but your government no matter what country is the biggest corporation/thief you could ever imagine. This is why I tend to defend the privet sector.



rpsgc said:


> First of all I registered here before you, so please... enough patronizing.
> 
> Second, I don't care how "intellectual" they might be, as long as they don't have proof to what they're saying then it's nothing more than assumptions and opinions, not fact.
> 
> ...



Well man you now have 11 posts. I could care less when you registered. Your new to contributing to the forums. This is fact. Sorry.

Second you are also making assumptions. We ALL ARE. I don't work for Valve and you don't ether. You see the price go up so you assume greed on Valves part. You don't question why. You ASSUMED.

Third I did no such thing. I was giving you a fair warning that your tone is heading towards flame land and you wont like it there. You will be crushed and this is a great forum. It sucks when someone gets banned......unless its candle.

Amazon sells in Europe and doesn't face tariff because it has a branch in Europe. Steam doesn't.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 19, 2008)

They are just being TOO GREEDY. One way or another. It's simple. There's no way that:

Game + Digital distribution + taxes *>=* Game + Documentation and box + Overseas distribution + Taxes + Intermediaries + Retail stores profit + VAT.

And that's exactly what happens here. They have become greedy, greedy, greedy. And they'll pay the price that costs trying such a thing.


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## mdm-adph (Dec 19, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> They are just being TOO GREEDY. One way or another. It's simple. There's no way that:
> 
> Game + Digital distribution + taxes *>=* Game + Documentation and box + Overseas distribution + Taxes + Intermediaries + Retail stores profit + VAT.
> 
> And that's exactly what happens here. They have become greedy, greedy, greedy. And they'll pay the price that costs trying such a thing.



I was told there would be no math


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 19, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> They are just being TOO GREEDY. One way or another. It's simple. There's no way that:
> 
> Game + Digital distribution + taxes *>=* Game + Documentation and box + Overseas distribution + Taxes + Intermediaries + Retail stores profit + VAT.
> 
> And that's exactly what happens here. They have become greedy, greedy, greedy. And they'll pay the price that costs trying such a thing.



You have no idea what they pay for digital distribution/IP taxes in Europe. It may in fact be more expensive than to import physical goods.


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## El Fiendo (Dec 19, 2008)

Also, while it may be small, the nature of exchange rates play a part. Being that they always fluctuate, most places will have a set rate for the day that is usually far above what it is actually at that point. For example right now CAD to USD is 1.21xxx via www.xe.com. However looking at what paypal is currently offering as exchange rate is upwards of 1.26xxx. Only 5 cents here but I've seen as much as 10 cents. 

Before you start flaming me I know they don't use paypal, it was merely a convenient example. Whatever their currency solution is it could very well suffer from the same problem that I find with paypal. Mind you, I just don't know. Then again I should think none of you do either.


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## kylew (Dec 19, 2008)

Eh? What I don't understand is, what's changed? Europeans have been buying games from steam for years, where did all these taxes suddenly come from? If they make the rate 1to1 then how can steam stay inline with retail pricing?

COD4, when it came out on steam was $70. 1to1 rate = 70 Euro, I HIGHLY doubt that's even close to European RRP.

As for the UK, COD 4 on the PC was £30 when it came out, 70 Euro would put that at £50, I've never seen a PC game for £50 that wasn't a special collector's edition.

What's different now, and is this implemented for the UK customers or just ones that use the Euro?


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## crazy pyro (Dec 19, 2008)

But the price in the UK is in fact lower than in stores, that makes sense. There is no way they're paying the vast amount extra on games in tax since the exchange rate is near enough to 1 euro to 1 GBP, I severely doubt they're paying £23 or 23 euros in taxes, someone in VALVe screwed up big time, the 70 page hate thread on their forums is going a bit far but they are well and truly screwing over anyone who lives on the continent.


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## crazy pyro (Dec 19, 2008)

Just ones using euros.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 19, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You have no idea what they pay for digital distribution/IP taxes in Europe. It may in fact be more expensive than to import physical goods.



I DO HAVE an idea, and I can guaratee you it's not that much. Although I don't know exactly how much it is, it's the same for all companies doing Digital Distribution (indiferently if they are or not from outside EU AFAIK) and the rest is charged htrough VAT. If many other companies can operate just well, Valve can. Increasing the cost by 1-2 euros could have been "fair", but come on...

Open the eyes, they just want as much of the pie as they can. They just thought "Ey they pay 50 euros for retail copies there."

"Let's forget about the fact that those 50 euros pay the retailers, the small distributors and intermediaries and the expenses of making and printing the documentation and boxes for all those countries. Let's get the money."


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## erocker (Dec 19, 2008)

It would be nice to see how much Steam *actually* has to pay the EU to sell software as opposed to other countries.  I know all about this kind of crap living in an over-taxed city. It wasn't always like this.  Before idiot people started voting other idiots into office, in a time when politicians actually had a sense of monitary responsibility, there were a lot of businesses in this town.  Taxes went up, the businesses had to raise their prices to compensate. People didn't want to pay so much so they took their business elsewhere and the businesses in town had to either close, or move to a lesser tax hell.  Once this happens the town has to increase taxes even further due to getting less revenue from the businesses that moved out.  Know what happens next?  Ghost town.  Go ahead, let your politicians run your town/country and tax the hell out of you and force your jobs elsewhere.  Or, pay a premium.


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## Castiel (Dec 19, 2008)

Wow that sucks. But oh well at least it doesn't effect me


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## Swansen (Dec 19, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well FYI the U.S. government taxes all business in the U.S. about 30% across the board.s candle.



Off topic, but i don't like Corporate USA or the government, they are both greedy and nether have the peoples interest in mind.  Large corporations hardly ever pay the taxes they are suppose to, they are an extreme amount of loopwholes, and right now, the larger the business, the larger the tax breaks.

As far as Valve goes, who knows whats going on, maybe its greed, maybe its higher cost of doing business, who knows, but Valve should release a public statement detailing their pricing model, if they really cared about their customers, thats what should happen, but it won't.


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## erocker (Dec 19, 2008)

Swansen said:


> Off topic, but i don't like Corporate USA or the government, they are both greedy and nether have the peoples interest in mind.  Large corporations hardly ever pay the taxes they are suppose to, they are an extreme amount of loopwholes, and right now, the larger the business, the larger the tax breaks.
> 
> As far as Valve goes, who knows whats going on, maybe its greed, maybe its higher cost of doing business, who knows, but Valve should release a public statement detailing their pricing model, if they really cared about their customers, thats what should happen, but it won't.



Well said, and I believe you are correct on both parts.  We need honesty from both government and businesses no matter what country they are based in.  Hopefully things in America will change in this respect but time will tell, they are the ones with the money and money is power.  We will see...


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## Gzero (Dec 19, 2008)

Lets clear this up a bit. Grand theft auto 4 costs £25

http://www.play.com/Games/PC/4-/6187127/Grand-Theft-Auto-IV/Product.html

Thats a pretty good price for a popular game, and is expected.
I can't check the price on steam as the store is running slow for me.
But converting £25 into USD = $37
Converting £25 into EUR = 27.

So if it is $37 into 37 euros, then that is unfair (after tax).

Its cheaper to buy from play.com for both GTA 4 and Fallout 3 by 2 pounds. 
Steam store didn't bring the advantage it promised to bring, which was supposed to be lower prices. I'd rather have my game disc than an account.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 19, 2008)

I've been reading about taxes to digital distribution and in every legal document that I found they say that for non-EU supplier to non-bussiness individual transactions the VAT has to be applied, and ONLY the VAT from what I can understand:



> For the non-EU supplier whose EU customers are non-business individuals or organisations, from July 2003 there has been an obligation to charge and account for VAT on these sales just as EU suppliers have to do.
> 
> The Commission claimed at the time of introduction that the taxation framework contained a number of elements designed to make the operation of the tax as simple as possible and, in particular, to ensure that it is not disruptive or onerous for suppliers of digital services.


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## erocker (Dec 19, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I've been reading about taxes to digital distribution and in every legal document that I found they say that for non-EU supplier to non-bussiness individual transactions the VAT has to be applied, and ONLY the VAT from what I can understand:



Yes, but what taxes/royalties/premiums/etc. does the non-EU supplier have to pay to the government?


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## Triprift (Dec 20, 2008)

Lol one thing though id be delighted if we here in oz were charged the same dollar amount as is quoted in the US price but no we get slugged more i still think is great. I guess being an Aussie though im just used to higher prices for software. =/


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 20, 2008)

Again I ask you guys across the Atlantic what do you pay for an Xbox360 game or a PS3 game in the store?


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## Triprift (Dec 20, 2008)

Id say like everyone else it would cost more for console games they cost around 120 bucks while pc is av 70 to 80 bucks.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 20, 2008)

My point is if you guys pay 59.99 euros for an Xbox game and we pay 59.99 dollars then this is just Valve catching up with the norm.


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## D3mon_Hunt3r (Dec 20, 2008)

When i purchased games through Steam i paid what was on the price in dollars + tax i payed nearly that $1=€1, if they want to put that equation if they keep this rule they can suck my lollipop. It's expensive enough already...


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## Triprift (Dec 20, 2008)

I must admit when i first read it i was like whats the big deal but then i thought oh right u guys getting charged more then i thought welcome to an Aussie gamers world.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 20, 2008)

I just found this.



> One thing about VAT... taxes is goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell an piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws.



If this is true then Valve is just making its margin. They may be ripping one group of people off to offer the same product to another group for a fair price. If this is the case you have no one to blame but your own local government. Valve is just leveling the playing field. IF the quote I posted is true.


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## Valdez (Dec 20, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> My point is if you guys pay 59.99 euros for an Xbox game and we pay 59.99 dollars then this is just Valve catching up with the norm.



We pay around 60 EUR (15990 HUF - today 1EUR=265HUF) for an xbox360 game in Hungary. There are some cheaper and some more expensive titles though.


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## Pinchy (Dec 20, 2008)

Hmm to all you Valve defending dudes:

If European customers pay the same dollar amount in Euros (ie, a 50 dollar game costs 50 Euros)...why does Valve charge us Aussies in USD and not AUD?

If I want to buy a $49.99 game off Steam, it will cost me $73 AUD.....why doesnt the $49.99 stay in AUD like it has changed to Euro?

One word: Greed.


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## Triprift (Dec 20, 2008)

Indeed exactly what i was saying before.


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## v12dock (Dec 20, 2008)

Someone is getting fired


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## theJesus (Dec 20, 2008)

Hmmm, would the following be possible?

1: Make US steam account.
2: Deposit money into PayPal.
3: Pay with PayPal.

I assume you should be able to get US pricing that way.


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## ghost101 (Dec 20, 2008)

erocker said:


> Yes, but what taxes/royalties/premiums/etc. does the non-EU supplier have to pay to the government?



None. They pay VAT (which no one is complaining about) and corporation taxes on profits (do they even do this as an American based company, since the US government will probably want to tax the profits).

Besides corporation tax is actually lower in the uk than the states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax_in_the_United_States#Tax_base_and_rates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_corporation_tax#Rates_and_payment

I haven't checked other EU member states, but if corporation tax is lower there, then they can officially reside there and export to the rest of the EU with no additional charge.

Also people should remember that firms can charge what they want as this isn't anti-competitive. It only is if firms collude or monopolise the market. Both are difficult to prove as shown by itunes case. And even if you can prove this, then you can't mandate lower pricing but should somehow improve competitive behaviour or the competition itself. Steam is no way a monopoly when there are hundreds of online stores selling the same stuff for delivery.

Also console RRP/MSRP prices in europe are 59.99 EUR or £39.99. Obviously you get lower prices online due to the competition and only the most demanded games can maintain this price. Also in the UK most PC games actually retail at £29.99 to £19.99. PC game prices and console game prices are very different (i guess due to piracy).

For example

http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B001DU6OHY/?tag=tec053-21

PES 09 has a recommended retail price of £29.99 (currently selling for £17.99) and is one of the most popular games currebtly on the market.

Same game on the 360 or ps3 has a RRP of £49.99 (amazon never sold it at this price though, it was always below £40 and the current price is £24.14)

http://www.amazon.co_uk/dp/B001DU4V42/?tag=tec053-21

In addition to all this, prices drop very quickly.

When did the latest installment of Prince of Persia come out on the 360? Already at £17.99 http://www.play.com/Games/Xbox360/4-/8284163/Prince-Of-Persia/Product.html

Its still at $59.99 on amazon.com and sub £20 ($30 inc VAT) on amazon.co.uk.


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## OnBoard (Dec 20, 2008)

Gzero said:


> Lets clear this up a bit. Grand theft auto 4 costs £25
> 
> http://www.play.com/Games/PC/4-/6187127/Grand-Theft-Auto-IV/Product.html
> 
> ...



Steam price
49,99€
Buy Grand Theft Auto IV

Play.com is ripping euro buyers off too with the current pound to euro ratio. We can only buy with euros to outside UK address. If you change the currency in the corner that brings GTA IV to 34,99€. Still it's cheaper than In Finland, 38€ cheapest price or 41€ delivered.

I've just been using play.com for years, used to buy everything with pounds (saved a bit). Don't know when was the last time they have checked the conversion rate, have to write them about it. (and yeah I get that they are hiding the postage to the conversion, but almost 10€ is too much for a dvd). edit: did write them an e-mail, Friends 10 season boxset has £55/$82/60€ extra price in it if you just change the currency


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## JoJoe (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm not arguing for one side or the other here, but I think everyone is forgetting that digital distribution is NOT free.

Yeah they cut the box, the disc, the manual, blah, blah, blah out of the mix. Instead they have to have the servers, bandwidth, electricity, blah, blah blah for digital. Could very well cost as much or more to digital. 

Maybe internet/bandwidth costs in europe/other countries are way more than US. Maybe electricity to run their servers costs more. Maybe Valve is greedy. Maybe the government is greedy. Maybe mathematics is being greedy.

I don't know why prices are what they are, You don't know why the prices are what they are. Everyone just calm down. 

If you can get the games cheaper by buying a phsyical copy than do that.


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## Ravenas (Dec 20, 2008)

"Screw you Europeans" -Gabe Newell


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## theJesus (Dec 20, 2008)

JoJoe said:


> If you can get the games cheaper by buying a phsyical copy than do that.


Agreed.  Besides, you can still use Steam to manage your games for free, even if you don't buy through Steam.


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## Wile E (Dec 20, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> My point is if you guys pay 59.99 euros for an Xbox game and we pay 59.99 dollars then this is just Valve catching up with the norm.



Everbody seems to be avoiding this question. I'm using GTA IV as an example on Amazon.com and Amazon.de.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FRU1UM/?tag=tec06d-20

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FII8CE/shoppingdevideogames-21/ref=nosim

Aside from the US one being on sale, they are both normally 59.99 in US dollars and/or Euros.

Seems to me a big deal is being made about this, when it is already the industry standard. Steam was just late to the game.


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## wiak (Dec 20, 2008)

erocker said:


> I would guess most deffinitely!  High taxes.


well you can rule out tax on norway, norway dont have tax on digital distribution
only on gods that goes thru customs last time i checked


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## theJesus (Dec 20, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Everbody seems to be avoiding this question. I'm using GTA IV as an example on Amazon.com and Amazon.de.
> 
> Seems to me a big deal is being made about this, when it is already the industry standard. Steam was just late to the game.


I noticed that as well . . .

I kinda figured as much, but I still think it would be fairly easy for EU customers to get their games at US prices.



wiak said:


> well you can rule out tax on norway, norway dont have tax on digital distribution
> only on gods that goes thru customs last time i checked


 When was the last time a god came through customs in norway?


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## ShinyG (Dec 20, 2008)

Here are some prices for GTA4 in Romania (which btw, is part of the EU):

Old price on Steam in $: %49,99 + 19% Romanian VAT = $59.49 = 168 Romanian Lei

New price on Steam in E: E49,99 + 19% Romanian VAT = E59.49 = 233 Romanian Lei

Typical price of the hard-copy of GTA4 in normal retail stores = 180 Romanian Lei

There's something fishy about paying more for a digital download than for a hard copy!
Either Valve is violating EU Trade laws like Apple did with the iPhone, in which case the EU will b1tch slap them until they correct the prices, OR the Romanian retail stores are doing something illegal. 
I already made filled out a form to the European Union to complain about Valve's price policy, so did many other European Steam users. Hopefully they will take action.
If not, that's entirely Valve's loss! They're the ones loosing customers over this decision...
I'm not buying anything from Steam until they correct this problem!


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## theJesus (Dec 20, 2008)

imo, there's only two good (conditional) reasons to buy through Steam:

1:  If it's cheaper than boxed version.
2:  Convenience (provided the price is <~ boxed price.


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## ZilverPhish (Dec 20, 2008)

I would never pay full price for a digital download unless they send me free beer along with it.
This greed wil just shrink the market for them.


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## Morgoth (Dec 20, 2008)

theJesus said:


> Hmmm, would the following be possible?
> 
> 1: Make US steam account.
> 2: Deposit money into PayPal.
> ...



and a ban from valve when the find out
if it was euro = Us dollar the US would be crying now
now US got lower prices and EU got overrated prices


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## huguberhart (Dec 20, 2008)

Steam is just not competetive with physical ditributions. Distributor has every right to set price they want. The only advantage is the games are sold when they are out. I live in Poland and large distributor here delayed few 'main' titles for few days.
USD to PLN is 1USD = 3PLN. It oscillates around that.
EUR to PLN is 1EUR = 4PLN.
Retail price here for GTA IV is 150PLN so its reasonable. Amazon lists it for 49,99USD. Then when I logon to Steam I see 49,99EUR.
The actual price for game is universal and leaflet, manual, CD or DVD is considerably smaller to cost to the cost of developing the game.


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## Pinchy (Dec 20, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Everbody seems to be avoiding this question. I'm using GTA IV as an example on Amazon.com and Amazon.de.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FRU1UM/?tag=tec06d-20
> 
> ...



Then why are we paying in USD ?


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## Morgoth (Dec 20, 2008)

and valve forces us to pay with Euro's


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## DarkMatter (Dec 20, 2008)

erocker said:


> Yes, but what taxes/royalties/premiums/etc. does the non-EU supplier have to pay to the government?



As ghost101 said there's none. Nothing extra that a non-EU e-supplier has to pay over an standard supplier...

Valve = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Triprift (Dec 20, 2008)

Pinchy said:


> Then why are we paying in USD ?



Exactly give us the same 1 us dollar for 1 aussie dollar and weed be laughing but no course not.


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## Gam'ster (Dec 20, 2008)

I always thought that was the whole point of steam: cheap games as you dont need to pay for the box etc...., Ok theres tax there has always been tax but i think valve is feeling the credit squeeze atm with people cutting back and its just found somewhere to get extra revenue from.
Also as ive been reading this thread ive seen some pretty disrespectful posts from members :shadedshu, there is no reason to flame each other if you need to vent piss off somewhere else and do it.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 20, 2008)

On the steam forum,a lot of people have tried logging into the uk steam website to buy,but its not possible.


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## Pinchy (Dec 21, 2008)

Triprift said:


> Exactly give us the same 1 us dollar for 1 aussie dollar and weed be laughing but no course not.



I know lol sucks so much. We dont even have bad taxes around here for that kind of stuff.


And @ the buying a steam thing from another location (ie america) and using in europe...Steam have regions now. I bought the Orange box from ebay from Hong Kong when it was released. After a week of having the game, it wouldnt let me play any of the games saying: 
"These products are for the asian region" or w/e. The seller contacted Valve because the games were tied to my account already and I couldnt return them to him, so valve let me have the games but said they wouldnt do it anymore for that seller if he was to sell overseas again.


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## theJesus (Dec 21, 2008)

Morgoth said:


> and a ban from valve when the find out
> if it was euro = Us dollar the US would be crying now
> now US got lower prices and EU got overrated prices


Well, that'd be _if_ they found out.  If I were to try it, I'd make a separate account and purchase the game as a gift to send to my main account.


tigger said:


> On the steam forum,a lot of people have tried logging into the uk steam website to buy,but its not possible.


People from where?  EU, UK, or US?  If anything, I'd think people would try logging into the US site from UK EU to get the cheaper pricing. (edited cuz I got 'em backwards the first time)


Pinchy said:


> And @ the buying a steam thing from another location (ie america) and using in europe...Steam have regions now. I bought the Orange box from ebay from Hong Kong when it was released. After a week of having the game, it wouldnt let me play any of the games saying:
> "These products are for the asian region" or w/e. The seller contacted Valve because the games were tied to my account already and I couldnt return them to him, so valve let me have the games but said they wouldnt do it anymore for that seller if he was to sell overseas again.


Well, that shot my plan down pretty effectively.  I guess cheapest option is to order the boxed retail games off amazon or something.


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## crazy pyro (Dec 21, 2008)

It's no cheaper in USD than GBP since the exchange rate from USD to GBP is currently crap and if you added tax on it would be more expensive. For instance L4D is about £28 if you take an exchange rate of 2 USD to 1 GBP, however valve is selling it in the UK steam store for £27, not much of a difference but it seems to be actually benefiting UK gamers.


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## Gam'ster (Dec 21, 2008)

Just because its benefiting UK games a little doesn't mean we shouldn't kick up a fuss to help our euro/Aussie counterparts , At the end of the day we should all pay roughly the same for games it only fair tbh. Also a revolution would do us all good just before Christmas...clear the air a bit  .


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## Triprift (Dec 21, 2008)

Thankyou my good man sounds like a good thing to me.


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## Gam'ster (Dec 21, 2008)

CHEAP GAMES!!!!!!!


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## Deleted member 24505 (Dec 21, 2008)

It was people in europe trying to log into the uk site,to buy cheaper than their euro price.


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## theJesus (Dec 21, 2008)

crazy pyro said:


> It's no cheaper in USD than GBP





tigger said:


> It was people in europe trying to log into the uk site,to buy cheaper than their euro price.


Sorry, I meant to say that logging in to US from EU would make the most since, but I accidentally put UK instead


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## Millenia (Dec 21, 2008)

Wow, that's pretty anal, now we have to pay a LOT more considering we also get a 22% VAT on top of the already high prices here in Finland :/


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## wiak (Dec 21, 2008)

i come with news my friends 
http://www.steamfriends.com/news/3635/prices-steam-euros


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## v-zero (Dec 21, 2008)

Gladly it appears that Valve doesn't consider the UK as part of the EU... Damn right too!


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## theJesus (Dec 22, 2008)

wiak's link said:
			
		

> As part of the switch to Euro currencies the *prices now include VAT* and any other fees.  When you go to “checkout” the price post is the price you pay. Before when we you are in Europe, you saw the dollar price and after that you also had to pay the VAT and extra fees.
> 
> Next to that Mike also tells us about the prices being a bit higher sometimes then they could be in local shops:
> 
> Mike: "Yes, we agree that some of the prices for third party products are higher then what you can find locally but we are working to fix that."


That ought to calm a few people down


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## DarkMatter (Dec 22, 2008)

Not actually. 50$+VAT is much less than 50 euros. Even with a 20% VAT, which I doubt any country has such a high one, that's $60 = 42 euros (now that the euro is pretty low, the difference can only get higher when the euro recovers it's strenght). Valve is trying to  cash-in 8 euros = $11 more here right now, much more if the euro recovers. I was counting with that the VAT was included, as VAT is indeed included in retail prices. It's still a simple scam.


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## Tatty_One (Dec 22, 2008)

wiak said:


> UK and US got diffrent prices vs EU, last time i checked UK was part of EU



Not by choice  ......and not fully.


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## caleb (Dec 22, 2008)

Haha Valve is very smart. They simply want to remove the risks involved with exchange rates from their side as most likely they pay producers with USD and let the customer pay that. Euro might jump a bit for a couple of years and after that it will become very stable as we (Central europe) catch up to the western europe.

I cant wait the day US will pay the same cash for stuff as we do and teh crying will start. 
But the day is comming soon


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## Morgoth (Dec 22, 2008)

valua of us dollar is dropping its cheaper for EU guys to port stuff from US


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## crazy pyro (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm not saying we shouldn't support EU gamers, they're the only people to provide a real challenge on servers in the EU! The Pound is pretty much equal to the euro right now so in theory the UK should be paying £50 for L4D on steam, although obviously we're not and are instead paying £30 for it.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Not actually. 50$+VAT is much less than 50 euros. Even with a 20% VAT, which I doubt any country has such a high one, that's $60 = 42 euros (now that the euro is pretty low, the difference can only get higher when the euro recovers it's strenght). Valve is trying to  cash-in 8 euros = $11 more here right now, much more if the euro recovers. I was counting with that the VAT was included, as VAT is indeed included in retail prices. It's still a simple scam.



Its not a "simple scam" at all. Read it again.



> A lot of discussion has been going on around the net and on our forums, about the recent changes for people in the UK and Europe regarding the new currencies Euro and pound and the costs of each game involved with that.
> 
> Ofcourse we wanted to know what was going on and after having a chat with Mike D. from Valve Software we now have some explanation about the difference of pricing for the European Union.
> 
> ...



As you can read there are some pricing issues on some of the games but Mike said they are trying to fix that. It's a new system after all. Valve is a fair company and is doing what Microsoft and Sony have done all along. You guys are just pissed you cant take advantage of the weakened American dollar anymore via Steam.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 22, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Its not a "simple scam" at all. Read it again.
> 
> 
> 
> As you can read there are some pricing issues on some of the games but Mike said they are trying to fix that. It's a new system after all. Valve is a fair company and is doing what Microsoft and Sony have done all along. You guys are just pissed you cant take advantage of the weakened American dollar anymore via Steam.



I don't buy excuses thank you, but I could agree it's not SIMPLE scam, elaborated scam maybe. As I see it Valve WAS fair, but if there's something Valve has always done very well is learn from the companies they have worked with. In their infancy they learnt a lot from iD, but it's a shame the last company they have worked with is EA. As I said they learn things fast... $1 = 1€ has a very easy to understand and precise objective, make money. Europeans, Asians, everybody should pay the same for the same service. Retail in Europe is NOT the same service as retail in US, Steam IS. In retail you have to transport the products (paid in Euros for european transporters), you have to sell it (paid in Euros again) and make publicity for it (paid in euros, see the trend??). In that case some extra money is justified and is tied to the strenght of the Euro. In the case of Steam is NOT JUSTIFIED. Pissed because we can't get advantage of what? Haha, that's funny coming from the US. Don't be hypocritical, tell the 3rd world that from now on, thanks to TheMailMan, their currency and their work is worth the same than that of the dollar and you. I'm sure they won't care too much the Euro is a little bit stronger...


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I don't buy excuses thank you, but I could agree it's not SIMPLE scam, elaborated scam maybe. As I see it Valve WAS fair, but if there's something Valve has always done very well is learn from the companies they have worked with. In their infancy they learnt a lot from iD, but it's a shame the last company they have worked with is EA. As I said they learn things fast... $1 = 1€ has a very easy to understand and precise objective, make money. Europeans, Asians, everybody should pay the same for the same service. Retail in Europe is NOT the same service as retail in US, Steam IS. In retail you have to transport the products (paid in Euros for european transporters), you have to sell it (paid in Euros again) and make publicity for it (paid in euros, see the trend??). In that case some extra money is justified and is tied to the strenght of the Euro. In the case of Steam is NOT JUSTIFIED. Pissed because we can't get advantage of what? Haha, that's funny coming from the US. Don't be hypocritical, tell the 3rd world that from now on, thanks to TheMailMan, their currency and their work is worth the same than that of the dollar and you. I'm sure they won't care too much the Euro is a little bit stronger...


So let me get this straight. You think that because a good is physical it should cost more correct? However you are ignoring the fact Microsoft and Sony sell their games for the same price in the U.S. only in Euros. If a game cost me 49.99 dollars here in the states it cost you 49.99 Euros. So again Valve isnt doing anything out of the ordinary. They were just late to the game. 

FYI here in the States some games are CHEAPER in the store than on Steam due to local state taxes and such. Also you leave out the fact that VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. These are the "issues" Mike was talking about. Until then you get a 1-1 ratio. But rest assured you WILL pay the same as what you pay in the store. Steam has never been cheaper than the store except on weekend deals. 

Again sorry the Euro wont go as far as it used to but them are the breaks. Write your local King, Prime Minister or Emperor or who ever dictates your laws. Just dont expect Valve to absorb any governments greed.


----------



## DarkMatter (Dec 22, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So let me get this straight. You think that because a good is physical it should cost more correct? However you are ignoring the fact Microsoft and Sony sell their games for the same price in the U.S. only in Euros. If a game cost me 49.99 dollars here in the states it cost you 49.99 Euros. So again Valve isnt doing anything out of the ordinary. They were just late to the game.
> 
> FYI here in the States some games are CHEAPER in the store than on Steam due to local state taxes and such. Also you leave out the fact that VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. These are the "issues" Mike was talking about. Until then you get a 1-1 ratio. But rest assured you WILL pay the same as what you pay in the store. Steam has never been cheaper than the store except on weekend deals.
> 
> Again sorry the Euro wont go as far as it used to but them are the breaks. Write your local King, Prime Minister or Emperor or who ever dictates your laws. Just dont expect Valve to absorb any governments greed.



Steam should never charge the same than retail, because of what I said above. If that's the case in US, sorry but Valve has been moraly scaming you big time. What they want to charge is WAY ABOVE local taxes and is NOT motivated by them, nor is the goverments involved at all. VAT has ALWAYS been charged and the price was never so high. They made an excuse and you fell for it, but that doesn't mean everybody else should do it. They say there are some "issues" with the taxes and all. Charging 25% instead of 16% in Spain is an "issue" or 17.5% on other countries or whatever. They did $1 = 1 euro and that translates to >>> 75% NOW (probably way more in the future). JUst before that move the Euro beta system was already applied with the proper pricing (without VAT), so they didn't had to "fix" anything, they already had it properly done. They just thought they could up the prices and make more money, because retail is more expensive, but as I said Steam is not retail and has many things why it HAS to be cheaper. Retail copies have to pay trucks, have to pay stores, have to pay the people that drive them and all that is paid in euros. Everything Steam is paid in dollars and they don't have to pay the truckers, etc, so I have the right to pay in dollars or equivalent euros AND the same than US customers + whichever my government wants (<- VAT and ONLY VAT), not so much more just because retail costs that. And BTW you'll be happy to know that "$1 = 1€ in retail" IS also something of the past, right now PC games don't ususally cost so much. It does in CONSOLES, but you have a reason there why I don't and won't buy consoles. You mention M$ and Sony as if they were honest companies, the way to go...  

This is ALL about paying a reasonable price for what you get, according to what it costs. If delivering a game through Steam costs $50 in the US, it costs $50+VAT in EU. Period.


----------



## Wile E (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Steam should never charge the same than retail, because of what I said above. If that's the case in US, sorry but Valve has been moraly scaming you big time. What they want to charge is WAY ABOVE local taxes and is NOT motivated by them, nor is the goverments involved at all. VAT has ALWAYS been charged and the price was never so high. They made an excuse and you fell for it, but that doesn't mean everybody else should do it. They say there are some "issues" with the taxes and all. Charging 25% instead of 16% in Spain is an "issue" or 17.5% on other countries or whatever. They did $1 = 1 euro and that translates to >>> 75% NOW (probably way more in the future). JUst before that move the Euro beta system was already applied with the proper pricing (without VAT), so they didn't had to "fix" anything, they already had it properly done. They just thought they could up the prices and make more money, because retail is more expensive, but as I said Steam is not retail and has many things why it HAS to be cheaper. Retail copies have to pay trucks, have to pay stores, have to pay the people that drive them and all that is paid in euros. Everything Steam is paid in dollars and they don't have to pay the truckers, etc, so I have the right to pay in dollars or equivalent euros AND the same than US customers + whichever my government wants (<- VAT and ONLY VAT), not so much more just because retail costs that. And BTW you'll be happy to know that "$1 = 1€ in retail" IS also something of the past, right now PC games don't ususally cost so much. It does in CONSOLES, but you have a reason there why I don't and won't buy consoles. You mention M$ and Sony as if they were honest companies, the way to go...
> 
> This is ALL about paying a reasonable price for what you get, according to what it costs. If delivering a game through Steam costs $50 in the US, it costs $50+VAT in EU. Period.



But everbody seems to be completely avoiding the fact that everybody else has already been following the $1=1EU model for a long time now. So, now that Steam has finally started doing it, there's a huge uproar, yet, this is completely normal in your market already.

I don't see what the problem is here. They are following the same business model as everyone else now. You don't like it? Don't buy it. Simple as that.


----------



## DarkMatter (Dec 22, 2008)

Wile E said:


> But everbody seems to be completely avoiding the fact that everybody else has already been following the $1=1EU model for a long time now. So, now that Steam has finally started doing it, there's a huge uproar, yet, this is completely normal in your market already.
> 
> I don't see what the problem is here. They are following the same business model as everyone else now. You don't like it? Don't buy it. Simple as that.



How many times I have to say that what can fairly be applied to retail CAN'T be considered FAIR with Steam? Selling things in RETAIL in Europe costs a LOT more than retail in the US or any other area TBH, that's the price we have to pay if we want our truckers and sellers to have a FAIR salary, on par with the rest of the people. Steam doesn't have to deal with so many european salaries, everything is paid in dollars, so that BOOST in the price is not justified at all. I'm sure that the same people saying here that is fair what Valve is doing, will never accept if Taiwan decides that their currency should be worth the same. I'm sure nobody would accept a $1500 mainstream graphics card, for example. And if workers in those countries had the same salaries as in US or EU (some countries) that's what hardware would cost.

People in the US have to deal with the fact that it's not the Euro that has been getting stronger in the world, it's the dollar that has been falling (thank your government for that). If we can buy more things in dollars is not different than with Taiwan for example. If something costs $50 to make and have a profit, it is that what you should charge and not more. Of course, I supose you have the "right" to charge whatever you want (is not moral though), but talk straight when doing so and not in a shaddy manner with lots of false and unbelievable excuses...


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## Wile E (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> How many times I have to say that what can fairly be applied to retail CAN'T be considered FAIR with Steam? Selling things in RETAIL in Europe costs a LOT more than retail in the US or any other area TBH, that's the price we have to pay if we want our truckers and sellers to have a FAIR salary, on par with the rest of the people. Steam doesn't have to deal with so many european salaries, everything is paid in dollars, so that BOOST in the price is not justified at all. I'm sure that the same people saying here that is fair what Valve is doing, will never accept if Taiwan decides that their currency should be worth the same. I'm sure nobody would accept a $1500 mainstream graphics card, for example. And if workers in those countries had the same salaries as in US or EU (some countries) that's what hardware would cost.
> 
> People in the US have to deal with the fact that it's not the Euro that has been getting stronger in the world, it's the dollar that has been falling. If we can buy more things in dollars is not different than with Taiwan for example. If something costs $50 to make and have a profit, it is that what you should charge and not more. Of course, I supose you have the "right" to charge whatever you want (is not moral though), but talk straight when doing so and not in a shaddy manner with lots of false and unbelievable excuses...



Yes, it is fairly applied to Steam. Steam may not have to pay truckers and warehouse people, but they do have to pay for maintaining huge server farms and for tech support.

And your logic still fails because this is still the software market. Every other facet of your software market follows this same trend, whether it be a digital or physical medium. The means of package or delivery means nothing what so ever.


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## crazy pyro (Dec 22, 2008)

TBF though EA could charge £50 for a PC game and have probably tried to, however Valve simply wouldn't charge that much for a game and it would also be of an infinitely higher quality.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 22, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Yes, it is fairly applied to Steam. Steam may not have to pay truckers and warehouse people, but they do have to pay for maintaining huge server farms and for tech support.
> 
> And your logic still fails because this is still the software market. Every other facet of your software market follows this same trend, whether it be a digital or physical medium. The means of package or delivery means nothing what so ever.



I think you don't want to understand. In retail this is how the pie is dissected (speculation just for comparison):

In US out of the $50: $30 is for the publisher, developer and associates. The other $20 is for the delivery, storage (physical which is much more expensive than digital BTW) and seller salaries.

In EU out of 50€ in retail: 7€-8€ is VAT, the same $30 or 22€ is for the publisher/developer and 20€ is to pay the delivery, storage and seller salaries. 

The publisher gets the same, it's the rest what changes. Steam does not have to pay all that, servers are nowhere near as expensive as the complete retail channel, tech support is the same for both methods, companies that sell in retail still have servers too... So if Valve charged a 10% more in the EU than in US to pay some additional expenditures they could have (which they don't BTW), that would be OK, but no, they are charging 75% more, for the exact same thing.


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## Wile E (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I think you don't want to understand. In retail this is how the pie is dissected (speculation just for comparison):
> 
> *In US out of the $50: $30 is for the publisher, developer and associates. The other $20 is for the delivery, storage (physical which is much more expensive than digital BTW) and seller salaries.
> 
> ...


Those companies in retail do not have to serve nearly as much data as Steam. The operational costs of their servers in no way compares to Steam's.

But still, you dont understand. None of that matters at all, period. Their overheads are of no concern to you. All that matters is the current state of the market they are in. And guess what, their prices now match the current state of the market. That's all that matters.

Now, does it suck that you have to pay more? Well yeah, it does. But does that make it in any way wrong or illegal? No, not at all.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 22, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Those companies in retail do not have to serve nearly as much data as Steam. The operational costs of their servers in no way compares to Steam's.
> 
> But still, you dont understand. None of that matters at all, period. Their overheads are of no concern to you. All that matters is the current state of the market they are in. And guess what, their prices now match the current state of the market. That's all that matters.
> 
> Now, does it suck that you have to pay more? Well yeah, it does. But does that make it in any way wrong or illegal? No, not at all.



Again, in Steam you don't get the same that you get in retail, so they don't have the right to charge the same. I couldn't care less what happens in the US, if you let them charge you as much that's your fault, if they want to sell in EU they will have to comply with our desires (and they will, they already are apparently).

PD: If you think that the cost of running the servers costs nowhere near the same as the complete retail channels, I think you have to return to school and remember/learn better how the chain works. Sorry but that's the truth. For what the store gets out of the product, the company that delivers it gets (or needs) 1/10th, because they deliver 10x more products (i.e they deliver to 10 stores). In the same manner the wholesaler gets (or needs) 1/10th of what the deliverer, because he sells 10 times more. And finally the publisher/developer can get by with 1/10th of what the wholesaler needs. So in order to survive the publisher just needs 1/1000th of the retail price. Steam gets rid of the last 3 links of the chain and implants a server system that NEVER is close to being 1000 times more expensive than the servers that companies that sell in retail have.


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## Wile E (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Again, in Steam you don't get the same that you get in retail, so they don't have the right to charge the same. I couldn't care less what happens in the US, if you let them charge you as much that's your fault, if they want to sell in EU they will have to comply with our desires (and they will, they already are apparently).
> 
> PD: If you think that the cost of running the servers costs nowhere near the same as the complete retail channels, I think you have to return to school and remember/learn better how the chain works. Sorry but that's the truth. For what the store gets out of the product, the company that delivers it gets (or needs) 1/10th, because they deliver 10x more products (i.e they deliver to 10 stores). In the same manner the wholesaler gets (or needs) 1/10th of what the deliverer, because he sells 10 times more. And finally the publisher/developer can get by with 1/10th of what the wholesaler needs. So in order to survive the publisher just needs 1/1000th of the retail price. Steam gets rid of the last 3 links of the chain and implants a server system that NEVER is close to being 1000 times more expensive than the servers that companies that sell in retail have.


No, I think you need to realize they can set the price to reflect the market as they see fit. Their operational costs are none of your business. They can charge the same as retail if they see fit. With Steam, you are paying for the convenience. If the convenience is not that important to you, by all means, buy retail.

Point is, what they are doing is perfectly legal and fine. Doesn't matter if you like it or not. They'll pay the price in the end if too many people don't like it. That's their prerogative. 

And for the record, I worked at a major retail chain's main office. I know how it works, and I never said that Steam has to pay as much in overhead. I was just pointing out that you are underestimating their server costs.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Point is, what they are doing is perfectly legal and fine. Doesn't matter if you like it or not. They'll pay the price in the end if too many people don't like it. That's their prerogative.



I hope I never see you complain about Nvidia's prices, something very common here in TPU...

One thing is what it's legal and another thing is what we should accept or not. We are complaining and we are in our right to do so. What I don't see the right for is to discuss our feelings about this. They could eventually decide to sell the games for $60 and I guess I wouldn't see you (all) complaining about that. I guess we are of a different paste.

PD. I think it was clear to this point that I dont have as much problem with the fact they are upping the prices, as I do with the fact that they are using excuses to do so. If you think you have the right to charge more, have the balls of admitting it and accept the consecuences.


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## Wile E (Dec 23, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I hope I never see you complain about Nvidia's prices, something very common here in TPU...
> 
> One thing is what it's legal and another thing is what we should accept or not. We are complaining and we are in our right to do so. What I don't see the right for is to discuss our feelings about this. They could eventually decide to sell the games for $60 and I guess I wouldn't see you (all) complaining about that. I guess we are of a different paste.
> 
> PD. I think it was clear to this point that I dont have as much problem with the fact they are upping the prices, as I do with the fact that they are using excuses to do so. If you think you have the right to charge more, have the balls of admitting it and accept the consecuences.


I'll say if I think it's too high, but I won't complain about it. I'll just not buy at those prices. And from that perspective, I wouldn't buy games from the EU Steam, that much is for sure. )Then again, I wouldn't want to buy games in the EU, period)

I just think too big of a deal is being made out of this. I mean, you guys are pretty much already paying these prices for a lot of the games on the market. Why is it such a big deal that Steam is charging the same as everybody else now?

And I suppose that them glorifying costs on their end is a bit shady, but what major corporation doesn't do this? Why the hell are any games $50-60? I think all games are overpriced. I just speak with my wallet. I rarely ever buy a game on release. I always wait for the price to come down to the $35 or less range (or look for combo deals, specials, etc.)


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## Pinchy (Dec 23, 2008)

WileE, you are thinking legally while DM is speaking ethically. They do conflict lol. Everyone is saying "valve is a good fair company" when what happened clearly shows it isnt (which is what has caused the uproar IMO). I reckon if it was "EA" instead of "Valve", people would care a lot less.

The thing is, legally they can and have done what they did, but it is definately not fair. If it was fair, they would either charge USD for ALL customers (with additional taxes and w/e per country in USD) OR charge every country a price in the particular countries currency. Of course, they have done it the "dodgy" way. For countries where the USD dollar is weaker than local currecny, they changed it (ie Europe) and for countries where it is weaker than USD(ie, Australia), they have left it in USD. That is just wrong.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 23, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I hope I never see you complain about Nvidia's prices, something very common here in TPU...
> 
> One thing is what it's legal and another thing is what we should accept or not. We are complaining and we are in our right to do so. What I don't see the right for is to discuss our feelings about this. They could eventually decide to sell the games for $60 and I guess I wouldn't see you (all) complaining about that. I guess we are of a different paste.
> 
> PD. I think it was clear to this point that I dont have as much problem with the fact they are upping the prices, as I do with the fact that they are using excuses to do so. If you think you have the right to charge more, have the balls of admitting it and accept the consecuences.



So we went from Steam doing something "illegal" by EU standards to your opinion something was done "morally wrong" by Valve. I wish you would have the balls to admit that this is about taking advantage of the American dollar (which you cant do now) and not about anything "unethical" on Valves part. Sorry man but you should have bought more games when they were cheaper. No need to throw accusations around.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

Pinchy said:


> WileE, you are thinking legally while DM is speaking ethically. They do conflict lol. Everyone is saying "valve is a good fair company" when what happened clearly shows it isnt (which is what has caused the uproar IMO). I reckon if it was "EA" instead of "Valve", people would care a lot less.
> 
> The thing is, legally they can and have done what they did, but it is definately not fair. If it was fair, they would either charge USD for ALL customers (with additional taxes and w/e per country in USD) OR charge every country a price in the particular countries currency. Of course, they have done it the "dodgy" way. For countries where the USD dollar is weaker than local currecny, they changed it (ie Europe) and for countries where it is weaker than USD(ie, Australia), they have left it in USD. That is just wrong.



Exactly.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So we went from Steam doing something "illegal" by EU standards to your opinion something was done "morally wrong" by Valve. I wish you would have the balls to admit that this is about taking advantage of the American dollar (which you cant do now) and not about anything "unethical" on Valves part. Sorry man but you should have bought more games when they were cheaper. No need to throw accusations around.



LOL I never said it was illegal. Check your facts. Besides Pinchy said it all above.

EDIT: Anyway it's funny, because it's Valve who is taking advantage of the weak dollar here, and I can guaratee you that I never was able to take advantage of the "strong" Euro. I won't tell you how much is my salary, I will just tell you that it's not 2x that of the average one here in Spain. The average yearly salary here is 20.000 euros and is higher than 50% of the countries in the EU right now with the newcomers. Some countries have less than 10.000 euros of average salary, so I wouldn't call that taking advantage of it. Just because the euro is strong, that doesn't mean that the average Joe in the EU can take advantage of that in any case. On the contrary, the euro favours companies to do the $1 = 1€ thing, so we are in a clear and UNFAIR disadvantage. Not me myself, I can't complain about MY situation, but I am sensitive to others, unlike (and this is something more and more apparent in this thread) most of our US "mates" making an apppearance here... Sad. Very sad when they are constantly taking advantage of the strong dollar in comparison to the numerous countries they exploit.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 23, 2008)

What is unethical by adhering to industry standards? Valve is being 100% fair. How is it right it gives Europeans a discount when Americans have to pay full price? No one else does. Seems fair to me. 

Also you have yet to admit VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. So in the end you have NO IDEA what it costs Valve to deliver you a game via digital distribution in your local area. In the end all this crying is based off of European greed. Not Valves.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> What is unethical by adhering to industry standards? Valve is being 100% fair. How is it right it gives Europeans a discount when Americans have to pay full price? No one else does. Seems fair to me.
> 
> Also you have yet to admit VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. So in the end you have NO IDEA what it costs Valve to deliver you a game via digital distribution in your local area. In the end all this crying is based off of European greed. Not Valves.



Erm we have already said that VAT is EVERYTHING Valve has to pay, and the funny part is that is not Valve who has to pay it, custumers are and we are not complainig about that.

Americans pay the full price and what we want is to pay the full price for the Steam games, and that is $50+VAT on our countries, NOT 50 €.

What happens here is that YOU don't want to see your precious dollar being exploited in the same way that the US EXPLOITS most of the weak countries and currencies. Sorry but that's something you will have to deal with.


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## Pinchy (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> What is unethical by adhering to industry standards? Valve is being 100% fair. How is it right it gives Europeans a discount when Americans have to pay full price? No one else does. Seems fair to me.
> 
> Also you have yet to admit VAT taxes are goverened by the local regions goverment/state/country. And to sell a piece of software with or without taxes are defined by local laws. So in the end you have NO IDEA what it costs Valve to deliver you a game via digital distribution in your local area. In the end all this crying is based off of European greed. Not Valves.



We have admitted Valve should not have to lose profits on VAT and should charge an additional fee for VAT (how much it actually costs them). The point is that they are simply changing the currency and using things like VAT as an excuse, to cover the EXTRA money they are making.

How on earth is it giving Europeans a discount? If they just charged everyone in USD, with the additional fees they are paying for certain contries added on in USD, it would be fair. They are making the same profits for all countries that way.

By changing the currency, they are charging a European $70USD and an american $50USD. 15% VAT tax on 50 usd is $7.50, not $20.00.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 23, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> What happens here is that YOU don't want to see your precious dollar being exploited in the same way that the US EXPLOITS most of the weak countries and currencies. Sorry but that's something you will have to deal with.


 Na I could care less. The world market sucks right now. Everyone is hurting but I'm making a killing. Iv had nothing but luck lately. 

However seems like you have a loathing for the U.S. and it makes me wonder if this whole "Valve" tangent your on is about them at all. Your little comment "the US EXPLOITS most of the weak countries" sounds like your biased against anything American. Im sure your country NEVER EVER takes advantage of cheap labor. 

Also I'm willing to bet America donates more money to developing countries than yours does. If anyone is "taking advantage" of cheap labor its your home town. Not ours.



Pinchy said:


> We have admitted Valve should not have to lose profits on VAT and should charge an additional fee for VAT (how much it actually costs them). The point is that they are simply changing the currency and using things like VAT as an excuse, to cover the EXTRA money they are making.
> 
> How on earth is it giving Europeans a discount? If they just charged everyone in USD, with the additional fees they are paying for certain contries added on in USD, it would be fair. They are making the same profits for all countries that way.
> 
> By changing the currency, they are charging a European $70USD and an american $50USD. 15% VAT tax on 50 usd is $7.50, not $20.00.


 As Mike stated they are working on making some pricing adjustments. I wouldn't buy anything until then. Like they said 





> Mike: We agree that some of the prices for third party products are higher then what you can find locally but we are working to fix that.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Also I'm willing to bet America donates more money to developing countries than yours does. If anyone is "taking advantage" of cheap labor its your home town. Not ours.



WRONG. Spain is the country that most donates (in comparison to its incoming) in the WORLD. This is a fact that was covered by an study made by many NGOs in 2006. So you did SCREWED there, BADLY.

EDIT: Pff not only that, US is the country that less donates in the world, between the developed ones...

IT DOESN'T MATTER for what we are talking about anyway, but ALL your discussion has been based on that we want to take advantage of the weak dollar. I could stand that comment from pretty much any currency except the dollar and the country it belongs to. I won't deny my aversion for the recent US behavior in the world, for it's government (Bush) and the sheep legion that voted him, TWICE!! It's exactly mantaining that dominance of the dollar which made the US government decide to attack Iraq, and that's both unforgetable and unforgiveable. And I have all the reason to think this way, BUT that is not motivating my comments about Valve, even though I can admit they may be conditioning my replies to YOUR comments.

Mike's comments are just a BAD excuse made AFTER they were caught. As I said the currency BETA was established prior to them doing $1 = 1 € and worked flawlessly. VAT was not included in the price shown in the games list, but was applied later at the time of paying. Everything OK. Why the change? That's already answered.


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## Pinchy (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> As Mike stated they are working on making some pricing adjustments. I wouldn't buy anything until then. Like they said



Yeah I get that, but do you really think they would have changed it if no-one noticed or cared?


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 23, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> WRONG. Spain is the country that most donates (in comparison to its incoming) in the WORLD. This is a fact that was covered by an study made by many NGOs in 2006. So you did SCREWED there, BADLY.
> 
> EDIT: Pff not only that, US is the country that less donates in the world, between the developed ones...
> 
> ...


 Meh. Your wrong and your contempt for the U.S. wont let you admit it. Anyway check this out. The Red Cross As you can see Spain is 16th. Guess where the U.S. is. I wont even go into the aid we send to Africa. Bush sent more money to Africa than ANY U.S. president before him. Whine and cry all you want but them are the facts.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Meh. Your wrong and your contempt for the U.S. wont let you admit it. Anyway check this out. The Red Cross As you can see Spain is 16th. Guess where the U.S. is. I wont even go into the aid we send to Africa. Bush sent more money to Africa than ANY U.S. president before him. Whine and cry all you want but them are the facts.



First of all Red Cross is not the only organization, and second put that in a per-capita basis and you will find something closer to the truth. LOL it's so easy to donate $5 when you have millions... When you stole millions...

Spain is much much more directly implicated than donating a 0.11% of the GPD. That's what the US donates. Spain does a 2% currently, I think, and does a lot more than just that.
Google Spain donations for a wider picture of the truth.


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## silkstone (Dec 23, 2008)

It would be amusing to see what they do if the Euro ever fell behind the dollar, i bet my a** they would convert their site back to dollars in a second using all the opposite excuses they've just given.
They have obviously had a sit down and said "what the hell are we going to do about this financial crisis?"
"Well the dollar is real weak now and so we're not making as much money from Europe as we were. As we are changing all out $$ in to Euros like many other companies!"
"so let's take advantage of our European market and charge them in Euro's, that way we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone - we have Euro's and we have more money"
"yea, i hate the French"

I believe it should be equal price for equal goods from the same supplier. Any other way is just discrimination.
Do Nike go to Cambodia and say, right we'll pay your workers $5p/h because we are buying the shoes you produce and we are from America?


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 23, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> First of all Red Cross is not the only organization, and second put that in a per-capita basis and you will find something closer to the truth. LOL it's so easy to donate $5 when you have millions... When you stole millions...
> 
> Spain is much much more directly implicated than donating a 0.11% of the GPD. That's what the US donates. Spain does a 2% currently, I think, and does a lot more than just that.
> Google Spain donations for a wider picture of the truth.



Stole? lol dude you are so lost. Show me a reputable stat. Per capita. I gave you the Red Cross.


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## silkstone (Dec 23, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Stole? lol dude you are so lost. Show me a reputable stat. Per capita. I gave you the Red Cross.



I don't want this to turn into a US bashing, but US capitalism sux. It takes advantage of the weak which is stealing in a way. Great for making money, but morally?..... On a personal level i'm sure most individuals would never do what the companies do.
Imagine going on E-Bay, buying something then the person saying, well you live in europe, instead of me charging you $50 i'm going to charge you 50euro, oh but i'll pay the tax.
What would you say to that seller?


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## DarkMatter (Dec 23, 2008)

This is not about which country is better and I don't want it to become that. Spain is FAR from being the most developed country. It would be NORMAL if it didn't donate anything at all, yet we are one of the countries that most contributes. Anyone who has ever been in Spain can confirm we are far from being greedy.

Anyway as silkstone said, what would you do if you had to pay $300 for your shoes? That's what you'd have to pay if the companies paid what the people doing them deserve. It's not different with hardware or anything the world and specially the US consumes. All the developed countries steal, US just does it more and what's worse is that it's the only one who thinks that doing wars is a good way of mantaining that status.

And bock on topic, there's no FAIR reason europeans have to pay $70+ for the same thing the rest of the world has "only" to pay $50. Period.


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## btarunr (Dec 23, 2008)

Alright, we're getting into a convolution and drifting away from the topic. Let's calm down. 

Let Europeans keep off purchasing from Steam. Let them (Valve) get the pinch. Hopefully they'll listen. I personally like to purchase hard-copies of my games (including those by Valve), and when they get cheap.


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## crazy pyro (Dec 23, 2008)

Says you who hasn't spent an hour and a half trying to get the DVD drive to read a DVD.


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## Wile E (Dec 23, 2008)

silkstone said:


> It would be amusing to see what they do if the Euro ever fell behind the dollar, i bet my a** they would convert their site back to dollars in a second using all the opposite excuses they've just given.
> They have obviously had a sit down and said "what the hell are we going to do about this financial crisis?"
> "Well the dollar is real weak now and so we're not making as much money from Europe as we were. As we are changing all out $$ in to Euros like many other companies!"
> "so let's take advantage of our European market and charge them in Euro's, that way we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone - we have Euro's and we have more money"
> ...


Absolutely nothing else in the computer industry is like that in EU. Why should Steam be any different?

They are doing the same thing as EVERYONE ELSE. So why is it OK for others, but not Steam?



silkstone said:


> I don't want this to turn into a US bashing, but US capitalism sux. It takes advantage of the weak which is stealing in a way. Great for making money, but morally?..... On a personal level i'm sure most individuals would never do what the companies do.
> Imagine going on E-Bay, buying something then the person saying, well you live in europe, instead of me charging you $50 i'm going to charge you 50euro, oh but i'll pay the tax.
> What would you say to that seller?


I think EU's socialist style of economy sucks. If somebody has made something they want to sell, they should be able to sell it at any price they see fit, and they shouldn't have to disclose any secrets about it either.

If they set the price too high, and it doesn't sell, they fail. Where's the problem here?


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## Gam'ster (Dec 24, 2008)

Wile E said:


> *I think EU's socialist style of economy sucks.* If somebody has made something they want to sell, they should be able to sell it at any price they see fit, and they shouldn't have to disclose any secrets about it either..



I got to say i agree 100% there everything so expensive and if i made something i wouldnt want to share its secrets either tbh.
But i think its the way valve went about it that got people by the balls...a bit more openness about the price increase would be good but its their call at the end of the day. This just gives users the choice now " do i pay for a hard copy or the convenience of steam ??" not a choice users want but they got it now.

But i still think we should have a revolution for our AUSSIE friends they got a raw deal, But why are games/Hardware so expensive in AUS in the first place ?


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## lemonadesoda (Dec 24, 2008)

btarunr said:


> they have been given a largely unfair pricing scheme with products on the Steam platform, that violates trade laws.



Thanks actually quite an interesting point. Differentiated pricing due to currency significantly beyond sales taxes.  Can a consumer can choose to pay in one currency over another (so eay on cc billing) or does location FORCE a currency and price, like some obnline websales?

I think the complaint is good, and I hope a precedent is set at EU level.

LOTS of online/websites sell goods at very different prices depending on currency selected. I hope they are foced to stop.

play.com is a BIG offender. They have historically charged a lot lot more for EURO based purchases. I used to buy sterling and deliver to europe. They then stopped that and FORCED higher EURO prices on deliveries to Europe EVEN THOUGH their delivery cost (from Channel Islands) was the same.

Let's hope this issue gets solved at EU level.


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## Wile E (Dec 24, 2008)

I hope the EU does nothing about it. Let Steam suffer sales losses and handle it on their own. The government shouldn't step in over something like this.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 24, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Absolutely nothing else in the computer industry is like that in EU. Why should Steam be any different?
> 
> They are doing the same thing as EVERYONE ELSE. So why is it OK for others, but not Steam?
> 
> I think EU's socialist style of economy sucks. If somebody has made something they want to sell, they should be able to sell it at any price they see fit, and they shouldn't have to disclose any secrets about it either.



Others are not overcharging so much as Valve wanted to do. As I have explained retail has a lot more costs involved, so a higher price is justified. Anyway we've been complaining about the retail prices in the EU many times so I don't know where the people are taking now the stupid idea that we are compfortable with retail prices. Because someone does something wrong, that doesn¡t give you the right to do the same. Only little kids think that way, at least here in Spain.

As I too said I don't really and necesarily see anything wrong in them charging whatever they want, as long as THEY charge the same for everybody (then let any country decide the VAT they want to charge) or ultimately if they had the balls of admiting why. 

If others selling in retail charged the same in EU and the US that wouldn't be fair for US customers or developers, because (AGAIN ) the cost of selling anyhing in EU, specially when it comes from the US is higher. But Steam is not the same, there are not any extra expenses derived from selling in the EU so, ethically, morally or whatever form you want to call it (maybe even legally, we'll see), they do not have the right to charge more in the EU than in the rest of the world.



> If they set the price too high, and it doesn't sell, they fail. Where's the problem here?



Discrimination violates the human rights AFAIK.


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## Wile E (Dec 24, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Others are not overcharging so much as Valve wanted to do. As I have explained retail has a lot more costs involved, so a higher price is justified. Anyway we've been complaining about the retail prices in the EU many times so I don't know where the people are taking now the stupid idea that we are compfortable with retail prices. Because someone does something wrong, that doesn¡t give you the right to do the same. Only little kids think that way, at least here in Spain.
> 
> As I too said I don't really and necesarily see anything wrong in them charging whatever they want, as long as THEY charge the same for everybody (then let any country decide the VAT they want to charge) or ultimately if they had the balls of admiting why.
> 
> ...


Again, It does not matter how much it costs them to deliver it to you. It doesn't matter if it's retail or digital distribution. It is still a game. That's all that matters. Every other channel follows the $1=1eu model, give or take. They are matching market prices for games. That's the important part, games. Delivery method is not important.

And it doesn't violate any human rights. Since when do games have anything to do with human rights? And they aren't discriminating. Everybody in the EU pays the same price.


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## Pinchy (Dec 24, 2008)

As I said, unethical as opposed to illegal .


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## silkstone (Dec 24, 2008)

Wile E said:


> Again, It does not matter how much it costs them to deliver it to you. It doesn't matter if it's retail or digital distribution. It is still a game. That's all that matters. Every other channel follows the $1=1eu model, give or take. They are matching market prices for games. That's the important part, games. Delivery method is not important.
> 
> And it doesn't violate any human rights. Since when do games have anything to do with human rights? And they aren't discriminating. Everybody in the EU pays the same price.



How does delivery not effect price? In standard goods (physical goods) they have to pay all the delivery charges, which are considerably higher in the EU, so the EU consumer has to pay those costs, and is why things in the EU are priced higher than the US. Delivery needs to take into account all aspects of logistics and not just paying the truck driver. Then there are also the retail costs, which are also higher in the EU (yes the EU has a decent minimum wage)

Anyway DarkMatter has said all this before, so we're going round in circles, but i'll say it again.

It costs steam the same amount of money to deliver the product to a US customer as it does to deliver the product to the EU customer. With other physical goods (console games, clothing, .....) with the 1euro=$1 conversion a lot of that money is going to pay workers in the EU, taxes and i'm sure the company gets a few % extra. With steam the $1=1euro conversion, the extra goes to taxes but the bulk of it goes to the company. Which is unfair when you compare it to other US imported goods.

Most companies where you can buy software over the internet act fairly, you download the software from a US server and you pay the US price. STEAM IS AN EXCEPTION. Think of all the software on your computer - out of that software, what can be purchased on-line? I'm guessing most of it can. Now look on there website and go thru the ordering process, you will be charged in USD. I myself have at least $500 worth of software i have purchased/registered on-line and i paid the US price for it so $1=1Euro IS NOT STANDARD


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## Ahhzz (Dec 24, 2008)

I like swords....


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## Wile E (Dec 26, 2008)

silkstone said:


> How does delivery not effect price? In standard goods (physical goods) they have to pay all the delivery charges, which are considerably higher in the EU, so the EU consumer has to pay those costs, and is why things in the EU are priced higher than the US. Delivery needs to take into account all aspects of logistics and not just paying the truck driver. Then there are also the retail costs, which are also higher in the EU (yes the EU has a decent minimum wage)
> 
> Anyway DarkMatter has said all this before, so we're going round in circles, but i'll say it again.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is delivered. They are games, PERIOD. You pay $1=1EU for most other games. Their market value is still the same, because they are games. It does not matter how they are delivered, or how much it costs to deliver them. They are matching the market price for *games*.

They have every right to do that. If you don't like it, send them the message by not buying their games. It's plain and simple. If enough people feel their prices are too high, and quit buying, the prices will come back down.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

Wile E said:


> It doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is delivered. They are games, PERIOD. You pay $1=1EU for most other games. Their market value is still the same, because they are games. It does not matter how they are delivered, or how much it costs to deliver them. They are matching the market price for *games*.
> 
> They have every right to do that. If you don't like it, send them the message by not buying their games. It's plain and simple. If enough people feel their prices are too high, and quit buying, the prices will come back down.



Fair enough.

I believe that as the consumer isn't receiving the same goods as bought in store, it should be cheaper. For example, no CD (so no physical backup), no Box, no manual,.. and also steam users are saving the company money by using it's services it should pass on those savings to it's consumers.

You have a valid point, but i don't entirely agree, so lets just agree to disagree


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

Wile E said:


> It doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is delivered. They are games, PERIOD. You pay $1=1EU for most other games. Their market value is still the same, because they are games. It does not matter how they are delivered, or how much it costs to deliver them. They are matching the market price for *games*.
> 
> They have every right to do that. If you don't like it, send them the message by not buying their games. It's plain and simple. If enough people feel their prices are too high, and quit buying, the prices will come back down.



You still don't get it? They are selling games, yes. BUT at retail they are selling much more things than the *game*. They are selling you the box, they are selling the manual, they are selling you the games with many different language options. I don't caree if you think that hasn't any value. It DOES and it should be priced accordingly.

There's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> You still don't get it? They are selling games, yes. BUT at retail they are selling much more things than the *game*. They are selling you the box, they are selling the manual, they are selling you the games with many different language options. I don't caree if you think that hasn't any value. It DOES and it should be priced accordingly.
> 
> There's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.



I agree with you about steams policy DM, but i think you are being a bit harsh in your reply to Wile E. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and are free to express that opinion whether or not it is something that effects them or whether or not other people agree with that opinion.
This new policy doesn't effect me, as i can't use steam, i can't even obtain legitimate copies of any game. But i used to live in Europe and so do care about the issue. And so i felt the need to express my opinion also.


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## Triprift (Dec 26, 2008)

Gam'ster said:


> I got to say i agree 100% there everything so expensive and if i made something i wouldnt want to share its secrets either tbh.
> But i think its the way valve went about it that got people by the balls...a bit more openness about the price increase would be good but its their call at the end of the day. This just gives users the choice now " do i pay for a hard copy or the convenience of steam ??" not a choice users want but they got it now.
> 
> But i still think we should have a revolution for our AUSSIE friends they got a raw deal, But why are games/Hardware so expensive in AUS in the first place ?



I really dont know why mate its one of the great mysterys of life.  Thanks though now cmon everyone revolution time lower prices for Aussie games.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

silkstone said:


> I agree with you about steams policy DM, but i think you are being a bit harsh in your reply to Wile E. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and are free to express that opinion whether or not it is something that effects them or whether or not other people agree with that opinion.
> This new policy doesn't effect me, as i can't use steam, i can't even obtain legitimate copies of any game. But i used to live in Europe and so do care about the issue. And so i felt the need to express my opinion also.



Well, yeah maybe I expresed it in the wrong way. It's not that I think he should not have an opinion. Of course he can and of course he can express it here. But he is doing way more than that, he is saying that our complaints are not legitimate, that we are wrong with our opinions and for that NO, he has no right to reply IMO.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> There's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.


It really doesn't matter.  This is a supply/demand issue.  Valve projects that for a higher price, they can pull in more money or at least break even with the old price.  There's nothing illegal about it.  If it were illegal, all these cookie manufacturers couldn't sell the exact same cookie under 10 different brands ranging in price from $1 to $10 a box.  If the demand exists, they exploit it.

So, if you don't like it, prove their economists wrong: don't buy the product off of Steam at the inflated price.  If they see their bottom line declining because of the change, they'll change it back.  Dollars and cents are the only language businesses understand.  You decide what is "fair" or not by your "dollar vote."


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It really doesn't matter.  This is a supply/demand issue.  Valve projects that for a higher price, they can pull in more money or at least break even with the old price.  There's nothing illegal about it.  If it were illegal, all these cookie manufacturers couldn't sell the exact same cookie under 10 different brands ranging in price from $1 to $10 a box.  If the demand exists, they exploit it.
> 
> So, if you don't like it, prove their economists wrong: don't buy the product off of Steam at the inflated price.  If they see their bottom line declining because of the change, they'll change it back.  Dollars and cents are the only language businesses understand.  You decide what is "fair" or not by your "dollar vote."



For the 1000th time. I DON'T CARE WHAT IS LEGAL OR WHAT NOT! IT'S NOT FAIR AND THEY ARE SCAMING US JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND I HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS IN THE WORLD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT SCAM!!

PLUS if it's legal or not that's something still to be seen.

Dont worry that I won't buy any game from Steam, a lot of people won't. I won't buy Valve games neither, maybe HL:Ep3 to finish the series, but that's all. I was going to buy L4D this holidays, but never will.

BUT that won't prevent this move from being profitable for them. With the new margins they just imposed, they could sell 10 times less games and still make more money than before. That's the sad part, that no matter what we do, they win, we lose. Because it's easy that a 10% of people will pay whatever they charge, they always do.

EDIT: Oh and BTW, what you said about the cookies doesn't happen in the EU (at least for long), there are laws in place to prevent that kind of things. It's sad if that happens in US, but what it is more sad is that you see it something normal. I will never understand the conformism of the "americans"...


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> For the 1000th time. I DON'T CARE WHAT IS LEGAL OR WHAT NOT! IT'S NOT FAIR AND THEY ARE SCAMING US JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND I HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS IN THE WORLD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT SCAM!!


It isn't a scam; it's economics.  If the change causes losses from previous pricing, they'll change it back.




DarkMatter said:


> EDIT: Oh and BTW, what you said about the cookies doesn't happen in the EU (at least for long), there are laws in place to prevent that kind of things. It's sad if that happens in US, but what it is more sad is that you see it something normal. I will never understand the conformism of the "americans"...


It can't ever be stopped.  If they just color one cookie green and one red, they can still sell it as a different brand for a different price despite tasting exactly the same.  As with every law, there are many ways around it.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

FordGT90Concept said:


> It isn't a scam; it's economics.  If the change causes losses from previous pricing, they'll change it back.



When economics go far beyond the value of the product or at least perceived value, then that's a scam. And definately when you are charging more to some than the others, that's a scam for sure.



> It can't ever be stopped.  If they just color one cookie green and one red, they can still sell it as a different brand for a different price despite tasting exactly the same.  As with every law, there are many ways around it.



As I said there are laws to prevent that to some point. Them changing colors etc falls within my comment: "at least for long". They are fixed sooner or later. Tasting the same is not a problem, two products that are similar can be priced differently as long as it's definately a different product (aka they can demostrate they made them differently) or from a different vendor. It's if it's the same product from the same vendor sold at different prices when those laws can kick in.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> For the 1000th time. I DON'T CARE WHAT IS LEGAL OR WHAT NOT! IT'S NOT FAIR AND THEY ARE SCAMING US JUST FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING MONEY, WHICH IS WHAT I SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. AND I HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS IN THE WORLD TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT SCAM!!
> 
> PLUS if it's legal or not that's something still to be seen.
> 
> ...


 You have yet to prove anything other than your contempt for Americans. 

Other people here have posted facts and asked you to prove your side of the story and all we hear is crying "its not fair waaaa". Well show me I'm wrong. Show me how much Valve pays to distribute in YOUR local area. Show me how they are doing anything different than anyone else in the market? Also your statement "they could sell 10 times less and still make more money than before" proves nothing than your lack of understanding for the currency exchange rates. Please Darkmatter lets get down to brass tacks here. You don't want to pay more because its an American company or your just cheap.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> You have yet to prove anything other than your contempt for Americans.
> 
> Other people here have posted facts and asked you to prove your side of the story and all we hear is crying "its not fair waaaa". Well show me I'm wrong. Show me how much Valve pays to distribute in YOUR local area. Show me how they are doing anything different than anyone else in the market? Also your statement "they could sell 10 times less and still make more money than before" proves nothing than your lack of understanding for the currency exchange rates. Please Darkmatter lets get down to brass tacks here. You don't want to pay more because its an American company or your just cheap.



I already demostrated they pay NOTHING to distribute in the EU. Demostrate that they HAVE to pay anything. They DON'T, NO ONE HAS TO PAY ANYTHING, that's why we have VAT. Maybe contrary to the US, things are done transparently here, there's no money exchanged below the desk to have the right to market something (I'm not saying that happens in the US, but I'm asuuming yes?? Purely based on your comments and how you take as granted such a thing must happen). Anyone can do that and they will only ask VAT, that is directly passed to the customer anyway.

As for how much more they get with $1=1 € it's easy to demostrate. I have a friend in a Gamestop here, his salary is 1500 € per month* (14 payments + bonuses) and there are 6 working there (one is the boss). They sell less than 1000 games average per month and about 10 consoles. Let's extract hom much of the 45-50 € per game sold they get by the simple fact that the store does work financially (far from bankrupt). They are six employees: 6 * 1500 = 9000. Let me round that to 10000, the boss surely earns more, take into account the bonuses too, etc. So 10000 € have to be paid in salary concepts each month and 1000 games are sold. That's 10 € per game that goes into sellers salaries and 7 € is what pertains to VAT so 35 € is probably the max that the store ever pays for them. You still have to extract how much the delivery company takes, the intermediaries, etc. I can easily say that at max 20-25€ are paid to the publishers in retail. How much costs to make the game? Judging by the publishers reports of profits and how many games they sold, they usually make a profit of $3-$5 per game usually. Calculate it yourself, the numbers are public. Because through Steam they have to pay NO ONE of the people/services above mentioned, they'd get 50 - 20/25 = 25-30 € wich is $35-42. So yeah I don't dare to say that's 10 times more.

As you can see it is YOU who have no idea of how the market works. Revenue doesn't matter at all and currency exchange rate much less. It's profit what matters and that can certainly be 10 times higher, the more you inflate the price the more you get. If the euro is 50% higher you'd certainly get 50% more revenue. But the profit would be MUCH MUCH bigger. Learn a fact or two before saying such STUPID things as "proves nothing than your lack of understanding for the currency exchange rates", PLEASE DO US A FAVOR.

And as for "Please Darkmatter lets get down to brass tacks here. You don't want to pay more because its an American company or your just cheap."

I don't want to pay more, BECAUSE I DON't WANT TO PAY MORE. Because there's no fucking reason except Valve's greed for which I had to pay more than you, or an aussie or an asian boy. I don't know what's so wrong about that, that you have to enter here to complain about my desires of EQUITY and FAIRNESS, to the point that your only VALID POINT is that you doubt about my integrity.

* I want to express how hard has been to me that the reason I have phoned a friend to who I did not talk for almost a year (no reason for that) was to know those details, but I felt I had to. I now regret doing so, but it's done.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

Ok, Listen guys it's there excuse that most people are p@##$d off with - It makes it easier for the consumer - if that were the case why don't they do that with Canada? $1CD=1USD, much easier or even in Australia.
Secondly one of the biggest points is the tax - they now impose a flat rate tax onto the cost of games even if in that country you don't have to pay tax. Legal?? we'll see, i'm sure there have been lots of complaints. I'm sure most of you guys wouldn't be arguing this point if it were the same in the US.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I don't want to pay more, BECAUSE I DON't WANT TO PAY MORE. Because there's no fucking reason except Valve's greed for which I had to pay more than you, or an aussie or an asian boy. I don't know what's so wrong about that, that you have to enter here to complain about my desires of EQUITY and FAIRNESS, to the point that your only VALID POINT is that you doubt about my integrity.



On many forums the Yanks seem to just to have an "It's your fault for being born in Europe" attitude.
But from browsing some forums it seems to me that steam have lost a lot of customers - hopefully you will see them revise their pricing policy. Whether they do or not will prove the point either way.

I hope your not thinking of me as an Asian boy ^^  I just live here.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> I already demostrated they pay NOTHING to distribute in the EU. Demostrate that they HAVE to pay anything. They DON'T, NO ONE HAS TO PAY ANYTHING, that's why we have VAT. Maybe contrary to the US, things are done transparently here, there's no money exchanged below the desk to have the right to market something (I'm not saying that happens in the US, but I'm asuuming yes?? Purely based on your comments and how you take as granted such a thing must happen). Anyone can do that and they will only ask VAT, that is directly passed to the customer anyway.
> 
> As for how much more they get with $1=1 € it's easy to demostrate. I have a friend in a Gamestop here, his salary is 1500 € per month* (14 payments + bonuses) and there are 6 working there (one is the boss). They sell less than 1000 games average per month and about 10 consoles. Let's extract hom much of the 45-50 € per game sold they get by the simple fact that the store does work financially (far from bankrupt). They are six employees: 6 * 1500 = 9000. Let me round that to 10000, the boss surely earns more, take into account the bonuses too, etc. So 10000 € have to be paid in salary concepts each month and 1000 games are sold. That's 10 € per game that goes into sellers salaries and 7 € is what pertains to VAT so 35 € is probably the max that the store ever pays for them. You still have to extract how much the delivery company takes, the intermediaries, etc. I can easily say that at max 20-25€ are paid to the publishers in retail. How much costs to make the game? Judging by the publishers reports of profits and how many games they sold, they usually make a profit of $3-$5 per game usually. Calculate it yourself, the numbers are public. Because through Steam they have to pay NO ONE of the people/services above mentioned, they'd get 50 - 20/25 = 25-30 € wich is $35-42. So yeah I don't dare to say that's 10 times more.
> 
> ...



Ok so VAT is a flat rate? You do know that VAT taxes are goverened by the *local regions goverment/state/country.* Again you do not know how much Valve pays to provide you with Steam as a service. 

As for the exchange rates by your logic the EU would be hundreds of times richer than the United States and the UK would be the richest country in the world far beating the EU. Do some research and you would see thats simply not true. Also as for what it cost Gamestop to sell a game is completely irrelevant. Shipping costs and the such do not matter because Valve is charging what the MARKET DICTATES! You also do not know how much Valve has to pay to keep Steam as a service up and running. It ain't free thats for sure. 

FYI you think the U.S. is crooked? I'm sure the EU never ever does anything under the table.  Its all big business. Its all about the bottomline. Money. Welcome to the real world. Nothing is fair or equal. Everyone and everything has a price. If you don't like it then I suggest you move to Mars.



silkstone said:


> Ok, Listen guys it's there excuse that most people are p@##$d off with - It makes it easier for the consumer - if that were the case why don't they do that with Canada? $1CD=1USD, much easier or even in Australia.
> Secondly one of the biggest points is the tax - they now impose a flat rate tax onto the cost of games even if in that country you don't have to pay tax. Legal?? we'll see, i'm sure there have been lots of complaints. I'm sure most of you guys wouldn't be arguing this point if it were the same in the US.



No silk I would express the fact it sucks I have to pay more but I wouldn't call "foul" and "illegal" if I knew it was just a market adjustment. As for our friends down under I think it sucks them guys have to pay more. I wish you didn't. But as with Europe I just wouldn't buy anything off of Steam until they readjust the prices and or correct the prices they have on certain third party games.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> No silk I would express the fact it sucks I have to pay more but I wouldn't call "foul" and "illegal" if I knew it was just a market adjustment. As for our friends down under I think it sucks them guys have to pay more. I wish you didn't. But as with Europe I just wouldn't buy anything off of Steam until they readjust the prices and or correct the prices they have on certain third party games.



Ok, we'll my point is that it sux and may be illegal (not is). I know that in the UK they/we have pretty stringent trading standard laws. But in saying that in the UK, cars used to cost 50% more than in Europe. I don't know if that has changed or what the current legal standing is over there, but it is interesting to see that steam has done this only to Europe and not the UK.
My knowledge of all things legal is fairly slim (apart from substances). How i like to see it Unfair=Illegal - I realize this is seldom the case.

I have however had a lot of experience with dual pricing systems, Where i live used to impose a 100% foreigner tax, and it seems that these things die pretty quickly when they get negative press.

mind you i would still call it foul - If it's never happened to you you wouldn't know the feeling of discrimination.


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## btarunr (Dec 26, 2008)

Here's where I step in:

As much as being expressive is fine, being vocal about things isn't...it usually spoils some serious and interesting debates
Beyond a point let's agree to disagree with things...the participants of the debate hold the higher ground over the moderator of it, to decide when to do so...again, while things are within limits
Use these pointers as you proceed with the ongoing discussion. Thank You.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ok so VAT is a flat rate? You do know that VAT taxes are goverened by the *local regions goverment/state/country.* Again you do not know how much Valve pays to provide you with Steam as a service.
> 
> As for the exchange rates by your logic the EU would be hundreds of times richer than the United States and the UK would be the richest country in the world far beating the EU. Do some research and you would see thats simply not true. Also as for what it cost Gamestop to sell a game is completely irrelevant. Shipping costs and the such do not matter because Valve is charging what the MARKET DICTATES! You also do not know how much Valve has to pay to keep Steam as a service up and running. It ain't free thats for sure.
> 
> FYI you think the U.S. is crooked? I'm sure the EU never ever does anything under the table.  Its all big business. Its all about the bottomline. Money. Welcome to the real world. Nothing is fair or equal. Everyone and everything has a price. If you don't like it then I suggest you move to Mars.



First of all *16%*, 16% VAT per game, that's what *I* have to pay so that Valve can sell their games in Spain. The government charges that 16% to the companies that sell the games, but it's been long since the companies decided to pass that cost to the customers instead of putting them in their "operating expenses" (or whatever they call it) section of their annual reports.

Second, why in heaven would EU be hundreds of times richer? Or UK? YOU PROVE one more time you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. The euro and the pound are higher because the prices of things and/or cost of living are higher in the countries in which they are used. 30k € buys you about the same in the EU as $30k in US especially to what pertains to internal economy. The EU has indeed a little advantage when it comes to importing things, but also the same disadvantage when it comes to exporting things. If you knew something about economics, or if you had spent 1 second thinking about them before posting such an stupid thing, you'd have known that the importance of exportation greatly outweighs the one of importation. The more you export the better.

Third, the expenses DOES matter for fairness and it costs the SAME to Valve to market in the EU, Asia, Australia or the US. So charging more in the EU is NOT FAIR.

And finally,



> FYI you think the U.S. is crooked? I'm sure the EU never ever does anything under the table.  Its all big business. Its all about the bottomline. Money. Welcome to the real world. Nothing is fair or equal. Everyone and everything has a price. If you don't like it then I suggest you move to Mars.



There are MUCH MUCH more strict LAWS and punishments that prevent companies from doing those things here in the EU. God knows M$ learnt it and you should know it better by now.

As for how the world is, I know, I'm not naive, but the fact that the world is not fair that doesn't mean WE have not the right to complain. And just because some do bad things that doesn't mean we should let others make it too or even something worse as is the case. FYI, when we think something is not well, we meet together and complain about it in the streets (sorry for my lack of english vocabulary, but the word just doesn't want to come to my mind). In fact millions of people complained about the war of Iraq, just for example.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

btarunr said:


> Here's where I step in:
> 
> As much as being expressive is fine, being vocal about things isn't...it usually spoils some serious and interesting debates
> Beyond a point let's agree to disagree with things...the participants of the debate hold the higher ground over the moderator of it, to decide when to do so...again, while things are within limits
> Use these pointers as you proceed with the ongoing discussion. Thank You.



Well then I shall agree to disagree. Let the EU voice with their dollars and not their government.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Well then I shall agree to disagree. Let the EU voice with their dollars *and not their government.*



 OK that explains it all. You won't say it here, but I almost can imagine your thoughts on this (typical american thinking I must say, in many forums I found it to be more common than I first thought): "Fucking socialists, they are evil. Guilty of everything that happens in the EU, that's for sure". And it's funny, because not a single person born in the US has the slightless idea of what Socialism is. Not that I agree with all of it's foundations, but I know that extreme capitalism is not the way to go. Capitalism has ruled the world more than ever and look where we are, into the worst crisis the planet has ever faced.

Ooops! Sorry: "Fucking socialists, they are evil. Guilty of everything that happens in the WORLD, that's for sure". Fixed.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> And just because some do bad things that doesn't mean we should let others make it too or even something worse as is the case. FYI, when we think something is not well, we meet together and complain about it in the streets





TheMailMan78 said:


> Well then I shall agree to disagree. Let the EU voice with their dollars and not their government.



DM> Yes, we all have the right to protest, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

Mailman> The general feeling on the web is that a lot of steam users are boycotting the service. I just saw one poll, 68%=not use Steam, 15%=Continue 17%=Undecided.

So the general feeling is that it is certainly unfair and possibly illegal (but probably not). You have to expect a lot of gamers and users of their service to be "ranting and raving" about this. You'll also have a lot of dumb people using the famous words of Eddie Murphey "mmmmmm...........ok."


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

silkstone said:


> DM> Yes, we all have the right to protest, *as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others*.
> 
> Mailman> The general feeling on the web is that a lot of steam users are boycotting the service. I just saw one poll, 68%=not use Steam, 15%=Continue 17%=Undecided.
> 
> So the general feeling is that it is certainly unfair and possibly illegal (but probably not). You have to expect a lot of gamers and users of their service to be "ranting and raving" about this. You'll also have a lot of dumb people using the famous words of Eddie Murphey "mmmmmm...........ok."



What would you say if I tell you that IMO Mailman's and Wile E's replies violate my right to protest? Would you understand better why I said they had no right to post the way they did? They are doing the Devil's advocate.


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## silkstone (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> What would you say if I tell you that IMO Mailman's and Wile E's replies violate my right to protest? Would you understand better why I said they had no right to post the way they did? They are doing the Devil's advocate.



Well, they haven't stopped you from saying what you want to say so they haven't violated your right to protest.
I disagree with what they have stated and it doesn't effect them, but the policy doesn't effect me either, but personally i have strong feelings about the issue.

Where i live used to have the same dual pricing system as steam has adopted. Different customers=different prices even if it is the same service and it is just wrong be it on a local or international level. Remember the internet dissolves borders.

There are more gamers in the state of California than many other states, but does that give EA the right to charge them more?

They have the right to defend the corporations if they feel the need. But i'm sure they wouldn't be defending their positions if it were an individual or even small business practising this


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> OK that explains it all. You won't say it here, but I almost can imagine your thoughts on this (typical american thinking I must say, in many forums I found it to be more common than I first thought): "Fucking socialists, they are evil. Guilty of everything that happens in the EU, that's for sure". And it's funny, because not a single person born in the US has the slightless idea of what Socialism is. Not that I agree with all of it's foundations, but I know that extreme capitalism is not the way to go. Capitalism has ruled the world more than ever and look where we are, into the worst crisis the planet has ever faced.
> 
> Ooops! Sorry: "Fucking socialists, they are evil. Guilty of everything that happens in the WORLD, that's for sure". Fixed.



Ill say it all day long. Socialism doesn't work. Socialism is stupid and anyone that follows it willingly is a moron. But thats not what I meant with my statement. Its not the governments place to say what a company can charge for a service. The only time the government should step in if an company is gouging a essential item such as water or food. I wouldn't consider video games to be essential.

Also for your information I have been all over this planet of ours and I do have a pretty good idea what Socialism is. Iv seen the best in mankind and the worst. You really shouldn't stereotype Americans. Its apparent you don't know many.



silkstone said:


> Mailman> The general feeling on the web is that a lot of steam users are boycotting the service. I just saw one poll, 68%=not use Steam, 15%=Continue 17%=Undecided.
> 
> So the general feeling is that it is certainly unfair and possibly illegal (but probably not). You have to expect a lot of gamers and users of their service to be "ranting and raving" about this. You'll also have a lot of dumb people using the famous words of Eddie Murphey "mmmmmm...........ok."


 Well If I were in their shoes I probably wouldn't agree with it ether. However I wouldn't call it illegal or ask my government to get involved. Especially when I didn't know all the factors behind the decision. To call Valve "greedy" is a knee jerk reaction. To accuse them of foul play without knowing the facts is even worse. It brings about the term "guilty until proven innocent." which by any standard is wrong. Complain all you want. Its your right but slander is something else.

Now I attempted to take the high road with DarkMatter with the statement "Well then I shall agree to disagree. Let the EU voice with their dollars and not their government." but he insisted on continuing the argument insulting my country. All I ever asked is to give the accused (Valve) a chance to explain and maybe toss in some rational why they made this decision but if its against DarkMatter opinion then it MUST BE WRONG and it must be the "Evil Americans" at it again. Sadly this whole thing has just shown his opinion and contempt for another culture. No facts.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Ill say it all day long. Socialism doesn't work. Socialism is stupid and anyone that follows it willingly is a moron. But thats not what I meant with my statement. Its not the governments place to say what a company can charge for a service. The only time the government should step in if an company is gouging a essential item such as water or food. I wouldn't consider video games to be essential.
> 
> Also for your information I have been all over this planet of ours and I do have a pretty good idea what Socialism is. Iv seen the best in mankind and the worst. You really shouldn't stereotype Americans. Its apparent you don't know many.
> 
> ...



I usually don't stereotype people, but it's clear I just hit the nail: "Socialism is stupid and anyone that follows it willingly is a moron." For God's sake!!

Socialism doesn't work?? Haha can you back that up? You just can't because there's no model you can compare. Capitalism is what has failed badly, not socialism. And this comes from a capitalist guy who has never voted, nor is willing to vote socialists. But after the crisis and after understanding the reasons that lead to it, only a foul can't admit there's simply something really wrong with pure unrestricted capitalism.

You keep repeating we don't know the whole truth, but we do. Our governments are not charging them anything. I don't know from where did you take the idea you have from EU governments, but those have never charged anything to sell in them except VAT. You DO have to pay some fees IF you physically operate from here, but that's not the case with Valve. I will repeat it again, the only thing that Valve has to pay is VAT and is paid by us the customers. 

Next thing we should know that can lead to Valve charging more? 

There are a lot countries in Europe outside of the EU (with their own currency) and on those they have not changed the price (funny). UK is the most clear example, but not the only one. In any case on those countries the laws and taxes are pretty much the same, follow the same model and some are more socialist than those few in the EU (just in case that matters). And still no change in the pricing.

Not only that, but there's nothing new now that could make them follow the $1 = 1 € policy right now and not before, except the fact that due to the crisis more money can come in handy for them. Or the simple oportunity of making a lot of money. Do you honestly believe they've been losing money for 4 years straight????

I see it important to say once again that I never said that was illegal, and I neither said the government had to get involved. It should be investigated and eventually taken to court if they found something illegal, but that has nothing to do with the government, it's called separation of powers, you know.

And as to let Valve explain why, they already did and chose to say it was due to VAT being included and that they had some issues with the pricing. The VAT is a poor excuse as I have explained, because VAT is a fixed thing and the currencies change. Also they changed the price WAY ABOVE what would be required to pay 3 VATs in any country within the EU.

And the one about the issues is just a tremendous LIE, because they had already changed the pricing to € just a week before, BUT with the correct pricing.

All in all, if Valve themselves would have thought this was not UNFAIR, they would have not used such blatant excuses.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

Capitalism has worked for well over 200 years in the United States. It works today. Capitalism has ups and downs but always remains strong. You win some and you lose some but you don't panic at the first sign of trouble and jump all over a new "ism". Can I back it up? Sure. Russia went Socialist then to Communist. I don't think it worked out to well for its people do you? Socialism is the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism.

Cuba is another prime example of complete failure. You fail to understand what it stands for and how the common people are effected. Do you have any idea what violations on human rights countries that currently practice a form of Socialism have done? However I can name some pretty damn strong countries that practice capitalism without the cost of personal liberties. They have been economic powers longer than Socialism was even conceived.

Churchill said it best:


> . . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance



So keep preaching how great Socialism is. I hope YOU never have to face it.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Capitalism has worked for well over 200 years in the United States. It works today. Capitalism has ups and downs but always remains strong. You win some and you lose some but you don't panic at the first sign of trouble and jump all over a new "ism". Can I back it up? Sure. Russia went Socialist then to Communist. I don't think it worked out to well for its people do you? Socialism is the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism.
> 
> Cuba is another prime example of complete failure. You fail to understand what it stands for and how the common people are effected. Do you have any idea what violations on human rights countries that currently practice a form of Socialism have done? However I can name some pretty damn strong countries that practice capitalism without the cost of personal liberties. They have been economic powers longer than Socialism was even conceived.
> 
> ...




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!

Spain is socialist now. Well the party at charge is socialist now and things have never gone better in my whole history.

In Russia COMUNISM failed and CUBA is COMUNIST too. Comunism =! Socialism. As I said you have no idea what socialism is, just what you have been told in a country that hates equity of mankind because they are the ones above all.

Oh and BTW Churchill? Seriously are you trying to make a point qouting him?

EDIT: Not only was Comunism what failed in Russia and not Socialism, but it was Socialism what made Russia one of the most powerful countries in the world. Then they adopted comunism and it took almost a century to fail. Also there were far more factors that led to the fall of the USSR than their economic model.

On the other hand capitalism might have worked for 200 years in the US, but when the crisis has come it's been socialist solutions the ones that Bush has applied to save the economy. I find it extremely funny. Don't you??


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## WhiteLotus (Dec 26, 2008)

What has this thread turned into? lol

While it is unfair that this has happened, have the price of games gone up considerably in the EU now that this has happened?

I have no idea, don't really pay attention to prices.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

WhiteLotus said:


> What has this thread turned into? lol
> 
> While it is unfair that this has happened, have the price of games gone up considerably in the EU now that this has happened?
> 
> I have no idea, don't really pay attention to prices.



Steam ones yes. Like a 75% increase in price.


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## WhiteLotus (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Steam ones yes. Like a 75% increase in price.



then don't buy from steam. Purchase the game else where and Steam will in turn lower the prices.

Of course it isn't "fair" but not much is.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!
> 
> Spain is socialist now. Well the party at charge is socialist now and things have never gone better in my whole history.
> 
> ...



Spain's economy wasn't "booming" because socialist influence. If anything they are living off the fat of the past government of the late 80's and 90's. However you went from a 5% growth to a 3% growth under your "socialist" government. Your growth is slowing and in 20 years you may be back where you started. IF you don't start picking up some Capitalist practices soon. As for your comment about Russia and Cuba Ill repeat myself and say *Socialism is the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism.* One is proven to work and the other has been proven to fail. Why would you even consider any practice out of a failed "ism".

Also Ill quote Churchill all day. The man was a genius.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

WhiteLotus said:


> then don't buy from steam. Purchase the game else where and Steam will in turn lower the prices.
> 
> Of course it isn't "fair" but not much is.



The problem is that with the new price they just have to sell 10-20% the number of games they used to sell in order to make the same profit and they save in administrative expenses, server trafic, etc. Do you think there's not going to be 1 out 10 or 1 out of 5 that will buy the games? There's going to be surely, so we already lost. They have just become elitists and it does work as an economic model. Many hardware vendors have followed that route and car manufacturers, etc.


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## WhiteLotus (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> The problem is that with the new price they just have to sell 10-20% the number of games they used to sell in order to make the same profit and they save in administrative expenses, server trafic, etc. Do you think there's not going to be 1 out 10 or 1 out of 5 that will buy the games? There's going to be surely, so we already lost. They have just become elitists and it does work as an economic model. Many hardware vendors have followed that route and car manufacturers, etc.



Then those 1 out of 5 people are fools. Just get the game from the cheapest location. Always a firm or a company will undercut the competition.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Spain's economy wasn't "booming" because socialist influence. If anything they are living off the fat of the past government of the late 80's and 90's. However you went from a 5% growth to a 3% growth under your "socialist" government. Your growth is slowing and in 20 years you may be back where you started. IF you don't start picking up some Capitalist practices soon. As for your comment about Russia and Cuba Ill repeat myself and say *Socialism is the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism.* One is proven to work and the other has been proven to fail. Why would you even consider any practice out of a failed "ism".
> 
> Also Ill quote Churchill all day. The man was a genius.



You have not the slightest idea of the economy of my country, so don't try to teach me anything. In the 80's and 90's SOCIALISTS were in charge too, it was in late 90's and start of 21th century that the right took the place so...

You talk about the growth in the current socialist government (why the quotes BTW?) yes it's been lower. How about in the US? Ah too. Crisis maybe? It doesn't come one morning you know, although they only tell you when it already is unavoidable. The growth of the economy would have been the same even if High Elves were in charge of the government. If socialists had been earlier in charge maybe things would have been better. And not because they are socialist, but because who the others were.

PLUS economy is not all that matters when it comes to politics.

EDIT: Uh oh and socialism is not necesarily the transitional stage to comunism. You can choose whatever you want to be, you can stop anywhere in between. I never said I want a socialist world, but some ideas certainly need to be borrowed.

And you're better off putting capitalism in that list of failed ism's because id HAS failed, BADLY. It took Russia 20 years to realize/admit it, so take your time.

Now that we are talking history let's make it clear why communism failed: as funny as it may sound Hollywood. The movies, which showed the best of capitalism, the luxury and glamour of the powerful and never the lower end of the story, made the communism fail. Because in a country were everybody was equal (maybe poor but equal) what was shown in the movies led them to believe everybody in the capitalist countries were like the ones in movies. That destroys optimism and leads to a fail. How many good minds escaped from the USSR? Yeah they had a reason, a opressing government, but does not have anything to do with the economic model. The communist leaders too contributed to the fail, of course, they implemented a good idea very badly because they never believed in communism themselves, just used it as a way to control the masses and become powerful and rich.

What I mean is that it is not the economic model what failed, but the countries implementing it. For instance, China is comunist AFAIK, and you are very naive if you think they are not going to be the first power in the world really soon.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> You have not the slightest idea of the economy of my country, so don't try to teach me anything. In the 80's and 90's SOCIALISTS were in charge too, it was in late 90's and start of 21th century that the right took the place so...
> 
> You talk about the growth in the current socialist government (why the quotes BTW?) yes it's been lower. How about in the US? Ah too. Crisis maybe? It doesn't come one morning you know, although they only tell you when it already is unavoidable. The growth of the economy would have been the same even if High Elves were in charge of the government. If socialists had been earlier in charge maybe things would have been better. And not because they are socialist, but because who the others were.
> 
> ...



By definition they were socialist in the 80s and 90s but their economic practices were very capitalistic. Not like your current "right" which is leading you right down the road to Communism. Also a country can not stand on a weak economy. Economics may not be the only factor in politics but it is one of the biggest. As for "borrowing" you can't have your cake and eat it to. It doesn't work that way. Eventually the greed for power out weighs the good of the people. With capitalism the people have the power. The choice to buy and to sell at whatever the market dictates. The current "crisis" is only effecting people that didn't see it coming. Personally I am making a killing and couldnt be happier. However if I lived under a socialist government I wouldn't be so happy. The government would have to make me play "fair". 

As for capitalism failing that has yet to be proven and or happen in over 200 years.

The bottom line is don't buy from Steam if you don't agree with them keeping up with the market. But don't act as if they did something wrong ether and stop crying and answer with your dollars.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> By definition they were socialist in the 80s and 90s but their economic practices were very capitalistic. Not like your current "right" which is leading you right down the road to Communism. Also a country can not stand on a weak economy. Economics may not be the only factor in politics but it is one of the biggest. As for "borrowing" you can't have your cake and eat it to. It doesn't work that way. Eventually the greed for power out weighs the good of the people. *With capitalism the people have the power.* The choice to buy and to sell at whatever the market dictates. The current "crisis" is only effecting people that didn't see it coming. Personally I am making a killing and couldnt be happier. However if I lived under a socialist government I wouldn't be so happy. The government would have to make me play "fair".
> 
> As for capitalism failing that has yet to be proven and or happen in over 200 years.
> 
> The bottom line is don't buy from Steam if you don't agree with them keeping up with the market. But don't act as if they did something wrong ether and stop crying and answer with your dollars.



Capitalism has failed, the crisis proves that. The fact that you are taking advantage of it, while millions are suffering even in your country just proves that. The fact that you don't care about those inmates suffering proves that.

"With capitalism the people have the power." 

Couldn't be more wrong. With capitalism COMPANIES have ALL the power. People have NONE. And as an example don't have to search too much, Valve and what they are doing. M$, Intel...


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## erocker (Dec 26, 2008)

Stay on topic.


V V  I agree. V V


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

erocker said:


> Stay on topic.



We have covered all aspects of the topic IMO. Close the thread if you see fit.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> Capitalism has failed, the crisis proves that. The fact that you are taking advantage of it, while millions are suffering even in your country just proves that. The fact that you don't care about those inmates suffering proves that.
> 
> "With capitalism the people have the power."
> 
> Couldn't be more wrong. With capitalism COMPANIES have ALL the power. People have NONE. And as an example don't have to search too much, Valve and what they are doing. M$, Intel...



So start your own company and have "power" if you feel this way. I'm sorry people made bad moves with their money. But why am I responsible to take care of them? They didn't help me make my money. Why should I share it to fix their mistakes? I already pay to many damn taxes for welfare. Capitalism has been far worse off than this. I have a feeling your to young to know this however. The "crisis" going on now is caused by the media and sensationalists like yourself. Has it failed? Not in the least. My bank account and my countries capitalist history proves it.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 26, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> So start your own company and have "power" if you feel this way. I'm sorry people made bad moves with their money. But why am I responsible to take care of them? They didn't help me make my money. Why should I share it to fix their mistakes? I already pay to many damn taxes for welfare. Capitalism has been far worse off than this. I have a feeling your to young to know this however. The "crisis" going on now is caused by the media and sensationalists like yourself. Has it failed? Not in the least. My bank account and my countries capitalist history proves it.



LOL. What about the lay-offs? Just because YOU are well means nothing. And in respect to all the people suffering because they have not a job, many kids and a lot to pay I'll ask you to not say "crisis". THERE is a crisis, the biggest ever so don't be a foul.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 27, 2008)

I actually haven't seen any of this "crisis" yet in my neck of the woods.  The "crisis" is in places where major companies have collapsed due to unregulated greed.  In areas far away from there, life is good.  We have ridiculously low interest rates and everyone is in the market to trade up a house.  It's nuts.


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## TheMailMan78 (Dec 27, 2008)

DarkMatter said:


> LOL. What about the lay-offs? Just because YOU are well means nothing. And in respect to all the people suffering because they have not a job, many kids and a lot to pay I'll ask you to not say "crisis". THERE is a crisis, the biggest ever so don't be a foul.


The biggest ever? Jesus I hope your life stays this "tragic". God forbid anything actually major happen.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 27, 2008)

TheMailMan78 said:


> The biggest ever? Jesus I hope your life stays this "tragic". God forbid anything actually major happen.



Please just finish the nonsense. Yes it's the biggest ever, more than the one in the 29, the economic machinery is just a little bit better prepared this time to selfsustain (with just some little side effects). That doesn't mean is not much worse, that is affecting much more people and that the scars are going to take much longer to fix. In fact one of the reasons that the economy is doing better this time around is because of the numerous lay-offs (as I said some little side effects). Sure the companies survive and the people that still hold their jobs are fine. It's also a dream for lucky brokers and those with lots of stocks. And who cares about that 10-20% of the people who is losing their jobs, right? Losing their houses, their cars? The ones that will never be able to pay the university for their children, etc. It just happens in places... right FordGT90? In places . Jesus I have never known people with such a lack of solidarity . And to think I was asking you to be solidary with us in the EU and you are unable to feel the real pain of your neighbourgs...

I simply don't get it, so because it's not affecting you, there's no crisis. You both look like the kind of guy that would say "hunger? what hunger? I have my breakfast just here" when people were dying on their feet pegging for just a bit of it. LAME.


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 27, 2008)

The Great Depression had a 24.9% unemployment rate nationally.  United States is at 6.7% right now...

Sorry, I'm just not that concerned right now.  I have no reason to be.  Maybe when that figure hits 10%, I'll give it a once-over but until then, it's just the media blowing the situation way out of proportion as usual.


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## btarunr (Dec 27, 2008)

This is a content forum thread. It will remain open to user comments forever. Stop posting if you're done with your argument, do not prolong an argument that's already gotten 10 miles south of the topic. Just because a few of you had your debate, I won't deny someone who reads this news article, from posting comments in the future. 

Thread won't close.


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## Wile E (Dec 27, 2008)

silkstone said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I believe that as the consumer isn't receiving the same goods as bought in store, it should be cheaper. For example, no CD (so no physical backup), no Box, no manual,.. and also steam users are saving the company money by using it's services it should pass on those savings to it's consumers.
> 
> You have a valid point, but i don't entirely agree, so lets just agree to disagree





DarkMatter said:


> You still don't get it? They are selling games, yes. BUT at retail they are selling much more things than the *game*. They are selling you the box, they are selling the manual, they are selling you the games with many different language options. I don't caree if you think that hasn't any value. It DOES and it should be priced accordingly.
> 
> There's also the fact that they want to charge more in one area, when it costs them the same. And no matter how you look at it, that's wrong. I don't care what your distorted view of what's fair makes you believe, it's not fair for us, that's our opinion, and the right to complain is OURS, not YOURS. This doesn't affect you so you shouldn't have posted in this thread in the first place, much less to contradict our opinons on something that shouldn't matter to you. PERIOD.


And with Steam, you are paying for convenience which retail games do not provide. You give up a box and case for a system that allows you to install and play your game on any computer anywhere, as long as you have an internet connection.

And you say different markets shouldn't have different prices, yet retail games do. I am in this thread contradicting opinions that are based purely on emotion, and little fact.


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## DarkMatter (Dec 27, 2008)

Wile E said:


> And with Steam, you are paying for convenience which retail games do not provide. You give up a box and case for a system that allows you to install and play your game on any computer anywhere, as long as you have an internet connection.



Convenience? First of all most games are not traduced to the languajes in the EU, retail does. Manual are definately lacking, traduced manuals? Try find them. In the US maybe Steam is lightning fast to download, NOT here. Plus I have never had an inconvenience installing my games in as many computers as I wanted. Not even Bioshock.

EDIT: Anyway maybe I heard the wrong rumor, but according to that, Steam didn't free up the games from having th DRM that would not allow you to install more than x times. Anyway, as I said I never reached the limit with Bioshock and installed it what I calculate as being like 8 installations. I definately won't install any gamee more times.



> And you say different markets shouldn't have different prices, yet retail games do. I am in this thread contradicting opinions that are based purely on emotion, and little fact.



At retail the prices are not different here or the US, NOT for the publisher, who gets the same or almost the same money. Most of the 50€ cake goes for the people in the store, truckers, etc. I don't care if you don't apreciate those, but that's why the game costs more in the EU. I apreciate the human interaction in my deal and with steam you get NONE. Without those only the publisher gets all the pie and there's no freaking reason they sould aim for a higher margin in the EU than in the US. They make the game for x amount, they sell it for x+y EVERYWERE, just as ANY OHTER PUBLISHER does.


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## silkstone (Dec 27, 2008)

Wile E said:


> And with Steam, you are paying for convenience which retail games do not provide. You give up a box and case for a system that allows you to install and play your game on any computer anywhere, as long as you have an internet connection.



Retail stores provide plenty of convenience for most people, some people actually enjoy getting up from their computers and going into town to do something. I know i do. And jeez, "play anywhere any time as long as you have an internet connection"? Really? How many people have computers that they use to play games at seperate locations? How many people don;t have a USB stick on their keyring that can't just put the game on there? How many people might go over to their friends' with the game to play multi-player and install on multiple computers?


Steam will only survive because of the die hard gamers (who can't wait to own the game the minute it's relased), those with enough money not to care, and the lazy. A vast majority of people enjoyed using steam because it was cheaper than retail. At the end of the day Stream will still profit, even with the loss of customer base as they will be able to make bigger profits from a smaller customer base - Do you believe the company wouldn't have thought of this? It will also turn a lot of gamers to piracy (the lazy+poor) who will think, "hey i can get the same service (even better sometimes) if i use torrents, whih will be bad for the industry in general."

So in summary this move is bad for everyone apart from Steam.
The original steam users lose out on the steam service because they will not pay an inflated price.
The people still using storm lose out for obvious reasons.
And the industry loses out in general as more people move to piracy.
Another knock on effect is that the dev loses out as they are getting less $$$ as previous steam users move to piracy.

Ok so your point - "Don't use it if you don't like it, or vote with your dollars" is valid, it insn't taking into account the big picture, you are only thinking of the individual users who use steam.
This is the first step in a troublesome trend, It seems the video gaming industry is moving in the direction of the music industry where developers/artists get the smallest slice of the pie. And games will be knocked out as fast as one-hit wonders with about as much quality and we will have to accept that fact as the publisher will be in control.
I still remember the days when anyone with a speccy, tape recorder and enough free time could become a developer and the games back then were some of the best i have ever played. (do i sound like an old man?)



DarkMatter said:


> At retail the prices are not different here or the US, NOT for the publisher, who gets the same or almost the same money. Most of the 50€ cake goes for the people in the store, truckers, etc. I don't care if you don't apreciate those, but that's why the game costs more in the EU. I apreciate the human interaction in my deal and with steam you get NONE. Without those only the publisher gets all the pie and there's no freaking reason they sould aim for a higher margin in the EU than in the US. They make the game for x amount, they sell it for x+y EVERYWERE, just as ANY OHTER PUBLISHER does.



Yup, i agree. The dev are not seeing any of the extra money which is not a good thing. i believe credit should be given where it is due. As i said above i think this can only hurt the developers.
Most people do not mind spending extra money for something when they understand where the money is going. In this case there will be a lot of confused people.

To mailmain> calling them Greedy isn't a knee jerk reaction. What does every publisher or every corporation want at the end of the day? To make their share-holders happy. How do they do this? By making as much money as possible and then spending as little as possible. I would call this the definition of greedy. 
*Greedy* = _strongly desiring more than required: having an overwhelming desire to have more of something such as money than is actually needed_

I would define most big companies as being greedy (although not all).
And no i don;t go round complaining about every company under the sun, but when it is happening right under your nose and just to brush it off as saying "that's life" or "that's ok, every one else does it" is not acceptable.
I am unhappy with the situation and steam give a good example of what is happening. Seeing as individuals alone have little chance of effecting what is happening it is upto the people who represent us to do something about it. the people that represent us being the governments, whom to which we pay taxes. But seeing as people are happy with just saying - "Well that's capitalism" this will never happen. So for our governments to step in and stop excessive greed on our behalf does not represent socialism.
I am familiar with socialism, i live in a socialist country. It is not, by the way Mailman, in transition to becoming a communist country (that period has come and gone). And at the moment, the small business owner is king. It is still actually possible to run a business here and make a profit (although things are rapidly changing). And things are much cheaper when the corporations are not given too much leeway to do as they wish by using the excuse"that's capitalism!"


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## FordGT90Concept (Dec 27, 2008)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the money was going towards a server farm somewhere in Europe as a download server for Europeans.  Maybe a lot of that is to pay for an OC line to the place which costs $1000+ USD a month.  At the same time, Europe has overall faster Internet connections than USA so it makes sense why they would make that move.  Once they get over the initial cost of the hardware, they may lower the rate again.

But you also got to consider all the various taxes throughout Europe too.  By standardizing the price, they save a lot of complex calculations for tax time making it easier for them to file a return.

They may also be preparing to change over to a unified point system like most consoles use for online purchases.

Additionally, most developers are wholly owned subsidiaries of publishers so the publisher collects the payment and answers the developers' request for more money.   The publisher, in effect, is a bank that developers borrow from.  Because of the growth of Internet transactions, the need for publishers is rapidly disappearing/changing purpose (as demonstrated by the music industry).


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## crazy pyro (Dec 27, 2008)

If the games industry does go the way of the music industry I'll seriously rethink the investment in my desktop, installing games is already longwinded enough without any more DRM/


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## erocker (Dec 27, 2008)

btarunr said:


> This is a content forum thread. It will remain open to user comments forever. Stop posting if you're done with your argument, do not prolong an argument that's already gotten 10 miles south of the topic. Just because a few of you had your debate, I won't deny someone who reads this news article, from posting comments in the future.
> 
> Thread won't close.



Thank you bta!  The next time someone goes off topic, or goes on some useless rant they will be infracted.


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## btarunr (Dec 27, 2008)

erocker said:


> Thank you bta!  The next time someone goes off topic, or goes on some useless rant they will be infracted.



All yours.


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## sherrjo (Jan 5, 2009)

mdm-adph said:


> Like others have said on here, it's not the taxes _you_ pay -- it's the taxes Steam has to pay for doing business in Europe.  They're probably quite a bit higher than they are in America, so in turn, they pass on the cost of that to European consumers.
> 
> Even if it's a "completely digital content distribution system," they still have to deal with European banks and regulatory agencies to get European gamers' credit card payments accepted, and doing these things incur taxes and fees.
> 
> Like I said, though, they could be a bit more delicate about doing it, rather than treating all currency as if it was equal (which it's not).



DVD.CO.UK, PLAY.COM AMAZON.CO.UK all games are between 30-60% cheaper in € than valve and all companies trade in Europe they have the same tax worries as Valve in europe yet can sell boxed retail games for nearly 50% less than valve.

Also most EU customers are also complaining about not being able to buy in UK pounds. (The UK seems to have the correct rates for games at valve.)

Thing is the buyer is king and most customers know where to get the cheapest deal. Valve Europe (if such an entity even exists?) will be hurting through loss of sales this quarter that's a 100% guarantee.


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## sherrjo (Jan 5, 2009)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Again I ask you guys across the Atlantic what do you pay for an Xbox360 game or a PS3 game in the store?



Bought Condemned 2 in the UK for £15 bought Dead Space for £27 in the UK

Current exchange rate (from American express Euro account) was .954p/1€

Saw Oblivion for £8 (new) in Game (uk store) 

I've never paid more than £32 for a PS3 game even GTAIV 2 weeks after release.

Shop around and you can get deals.

However here in Belgium should I go to my nearest store it's a whopping 69€ for a new title however you'd have to be a beers short of a keg to pay that price


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