# Radeon HD 5870 Aggressively Priced: Report



## btarunr (Aug 24, 2009)

According to a fresh report by Donanim Haber, AMD's next performance graphics accelerator, the Radeon HD 5870, codenamed "Cypress" is expected to be aggressively priced, at US $299. At that price, it intends to be highly competitive against GeForce GTX 285 from NVIDIA. The secret-sauce behind the price could be the 40 nm fab process on which the GPU is being built, which allows upping transistor counts while maintaining significantly smaller die-sizes compared to 55 nm. 

There is a great deal of uncertainty surrounding the specifications of the GPU, including what level of performance with existing application could it end up offering. Some sources, such as ChipHell, which are one of the first to leak pictures of components related to various Evergreen family products claim the Cypress GPU to have an almost 100% increase in stream processor counts compared to RV770, while others remain conservative expecting it to be around 50%. With this kind of a pricing, Cypress could trigger market-wide changes in GPU pricing, if it ends up with a good price/performance ratio at $299.



Cypress is expected to be launched on 22 September, close to two weeks after the company unveils the Evergreen family of DirectX 11 compliant GPUs on September 10. Market availability is expected in October. In related news from the same report, the enthusiast-grade accelerator that uses two of these GPUs, codenamed "Hemlock", is expected to be out in November.

*View at TechPowerUp Main Site*


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## sapetto (Aug 24, 2009)

How much did HD4870 cost at first when launched again $299?


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

it intends to be highly competitive against GeForce GTX 285 ? lol ... about 3 months ago i was thinking the new 5000 series will get beyond that "limit" . so ... IT`s safe to say that my GTX 260 is competitive against GeForce GTX 285 . . I'm confused


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## araditus (Aug 24, 2009)

yes and the same as the 3870 @ 299$

and werez, i am thinking, just the price point, since NO one knows the performance. its the 285 price point and (lets hope) it is 100% more powerful, well then thats a competitive product.


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

oh .. silly me .


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Aug 24, 2009)

Thats not aggressively priced or targeted ...


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## araditus (Aug 24, 2009)

SO; comes out the same day as the NorthAmerican release of Aion, yes this will go nicely!! I figured I would join the speculation on the specifications:

4870 ---> 5870
73% increase in SP
11% decrease in powerconsumption
33% increase in transistors
clocks will be 895 mhz standard (give or take 5%)
3dmark06 increase of 57% @ 1900x1200


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## AltecV1 (Aug 24, 2009)

i was hoping it to be 249$ but its not


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

Anyway :


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 24, 2009)

It'll be £299 in the rip off uk.


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## araditus (Aug 24, 2009)

werez said:


> Anyway :
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/090824/radeon_hd_5870_specs_reveal_full.jpg



oh man, i was really close, i have never seen that chart before i must be out of the loop, damn im really close


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## selway89 (Aug 24, 2009)

tigger said:


> It'll be £299 in the rip off uk.



Yup!  and I want a new 5850 or 5870, hoping they don't price them out of my budget.


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## WarEagleAU (Aug 24, 2009)

Sounds like a nice entry point. I expect about 6 months or so and the prices will drop. I was hoping they would do 1000mhz on the core, seeing as the 4890 can get that.


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## A Cheese Danish (Aug 24, 2009)

I still think I'll wait for the X2 version and blow all my money on that


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

well .. i don`t know ... i was just surfing around looking for some info , and i came across a dude who clocked a GTX275 at 972/1405/1950 , hahah . XFX card , funny thing .... GT200 is still a powerful chip man .


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## KainXS (Aug 24, 2009)

"waits for 1600sp 5870"

this card is gonna woop the GT200 either way though, but 1200sp vs 1600 will decide if it can outperform a GTX295 or HD4870X2 with 1 card


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

outperform GTX295 or HD4870X2  ? your kidding right ? hope you are talking about Hemlock , not the single GPU version .


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## qubit (Aug 24, 2009)

"Highly competitive" with a GTX 285? WTF does that mean? This sounds like the performance will be similar.

For a brand new architecture and top of the range card, it should be at the _very least_ 50% faster. I hope that it's just that the rumours are wrong.

One thing that occurs to me, is that the card at stock clocks may be similar in performance to a GTX 285, but will overclock to hell and back straight out of the box, with no tweaking required. This could allow AMD to price it low, while still blowing away a GTX 285 in performance when overclocked. As word got round about this, it would fly off the shelves. This is my theory, anyway.


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## newtekie1 (Aug 24, 2009)

Good we need something to bring down nVidia's high end prices...over $300 still for the GTX285 is stupid IMO.


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## KainXS (Aug 24, 2009)

werez said:


> outperform GTX295 or HD4870X2  ? your kidding right ? hope you are talking about Hemlock , not the single GPU version .



nope not joking, you have to remember that the GTX295 and HD4870X2 are only about 40 to 60% faster than their single versions in most cases, add in that ATI could be doubling the specs of their new card vs their previous card(which they have never done) and has enough bandwidth to handle it and you have a monster.


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## PCpraiser100 (Aug 24, 2009)

Wow, AMD is falling back into the trap that Nvidia has set up AGAIN. This happened when the HD 3000 series came up, and now, Nvidia is simply going to strike back using retaliation as their advantage over knowing the weaknesses of this video card. This reminds me of chess too much.


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## KainXS (Aug 24, 2009)

Think about it, HD5870 could have 1600SP and 32Rops, The HD4870X2 also has 32Rops and 1600SP's but loses performance due to crossfire

which one would be faster

but I will still say the GTX380 would woop it even still.


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## kylzer (Aug 24, 2009)

GOD DAMMIT !!!

so how much will the HD5870x2 be then?


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

I think that 40 nm fab process real benefit is just lower power consumption , and lower temperature ... at a 299 US$ price point i can`t really see more than a 10%-15% performance increase (HD4890 as reference) + dx11 full support  . Money tells you everything you need to know about a product .


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## KainXS (Aug 24, 2009)

not really, ati needs to sell now before nvidia's new cards come out, high prices might make people want to wait longer.

and these prices are not final even still.


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## [I.R.A]_FBi (Aug 24, 2009)

werez said:


> I think that 40 nm fab process real benefit is just lower power consumption , and lower temperature ... at a 299 US$ price point i can`t really see more than a 10%-15% performance increase (HD4890 as reference) + dx11 full support  . Money tells you everything you need to know about a product .





fab alone doesnt increase performance


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## enzolt (Aug 24, 2009)

darn, way out of my budget. with college starting up again, looks like i gotta save up for a few months again.


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## SonDa5 (Aug 24, 2009)

AltecV1 said:


> i was hoping it to be 249$ but its not





Me too.

Oh well. I'll just wait till the price comes down. Maby by Christmas there will be some good deals on them.


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## pr0n Inspector (Aug 24, 2009)

Can't wait for reviews!


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## HalfAHertz (Aug 24, 2009)

The way I see it, if they keep to the same form factor of the die, moving from 55nm to 40 nm means 1,375 times more transistors( 55/40)
So if we take the 800SPs of the rv770 and multiply it with 1,375, we end up at 1100, which is not dividable by 80, Thus rounding the final number to 1120 or going for a bit bigger die and ending up at 1200SPs.

Not sure if nm scales work like that tho 

I'm pretty sure ATi will keep going with the same strategy for their chips - if not completely able to beat the nVidia giants, can at least compete at a price/performance point


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## erocker (Aug 24, 2009)

No suprise on price at all and glad to see it.


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## Steevo (Aug 24, 2009)

I still want a 2GB version. I would pay $359 for one.


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## werez (Aug 24, 2009)

my first dissapointment :

Lynnfield i5-750 199EUR , listed in GERMANY , ready for shipping . PErformance wise , still <  i7 920 .
MSI P55-GD80, P55 priced at 195 EUR , listed in GERMANY , ready for shipping .

Now , thats 394EUR . 

ASRock X58 Extreme, X58 listed at 132EUR  price point .
Intel Core i7-920 listed at 225EUR price point .

Now , thats 357EUR.

They dumped tripple channel memory , so you buy "cheaper" dual channel .. whatever ..

So i can sacrifice tripple channel  , buy myself a decent cooler , overclock the 920 , and use the ASRock X58 Extreme  ( high end board actually ) , enjoy sli or CF at full speed . Now where is that milestone that intel was talking about ? What i3 dual core that are performing just like the e8400 and will cost 5EUR less ? 

So now moovig forward to AMD . Introducing a really high end chipset , bla bla bla , priced somewhere around 230 and give me the same performance as a HD4870X2 ? I DON'T THINK SO . 
They will have to cut the HD4870 price at send it in the sub 90EUR zone . THAT IS NOT GOING to happen . NOT ! they have to keep some kind of balance between GPU`s . In my oppinion they will offer a little more boost in terms of performance , dx11 support , lower power consumption , and that`s it . AMD is not making charity actions !


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## Kitkat (Aug 24, 2009)

i cant WAIT! rofl im gonna go ape$hit! im gonna be poor too alot of tech toys come out in next 3 months. Ill just eat bread and water, i dont care  omg lol


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## Nick89 (Aug 24, 2009)

tigger said:


> It'll be £299 in the rip off uk.



$299.99 = £182.72

£299.99 = $492.51


Man thats a crazy ripoff.


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## Kitkat (Aug 24, 2009)

Nick89 said:


> $299.99 = £182.72
> 
> £299.99 = $492.51
> 
> ...



um did u see the chart with the math. lol what did u expect


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## Nick89 (Aug 24, 2009)

Kitkat said:


> um did u see the chart with the math. lol what did u expect



What chart? I wanted to see what £299 would be converted into dollers. So I looked it up and saw how much you get ripped off in the UK for computer parts.


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## GoldenTiger (Aug 24, 2009)

Do want, now!


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## 1Kurgan1 (Aug 24, 2009)

PCpraiser100 said:


> Wow, AMD is falling back into the trap that Nvidia has set up AGAIN. This happened when the HD 3000 series came up, and now, Nvidia is simply going to strike back using retaliation as their advantage over knowing the weaknesses of this video card. This reminds me of chess too much.



What trap? Thats called a market. Nvidia had a good foot hold till AMD bought out ATi, then the 3870x2 was king, then the GTX280 rolled out and was king, and then the 4870x2 was, then the GTX295, and soon the 5870 or 5870x2. 

It's just a back and forth thing, no ones playing into any game, the later product usually should be faster, thats why its later. But remember there is a 4890 right now, and with ATi having what sounds like a 4 to 6 month lead on a 40nm chip, they might have a barn burner 5890 ready to hit the market by the time Nvidia even joins them with a DX11 40nm GPU.


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## Scrizz (Aug 24, 2009)

nice, can't wait for the $50 off in the first week


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## ghost101 (Aug 24, 2009)

Nick89 said:


> $299.99 = £182.72
> 
> £299.99 = $492.51
> 
> ...



Don't worry. It won't be £299. Brits just like to complain.

The HD4870 was around £200 on release. I bought the HD4850 on release at £120. US price of both cards were $299 and $199 respectively.

The £:$ exchange rate is slightly worse this time around though. So prices will be a bit higher.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 24, 2009)

We do get ripped off on hardware prices though.


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## Drac (Aug 25, 2009)

Scrizz said:


> nice, can't wait for the $50 off in the first week


+10000


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## IINexusII (Aug 25, 2009)

im only buying it if it gets to £200


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## Anath (Aug 25, 2009)

If the rumors are true that the 5870 will have similiar/better performance than the 4870x2 then i will pick one up...however if not i think ill pick up two 4890s and put them in crossfire


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## MoonPig (Aug 25, 2009)

The 4870 was £220 on release here. If it's the same or abit lower after a week or so... I'm very tempted.


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## Nick89 (Aug 25, 2009)

1Kurgan1 said:


> What trap? Thats called a market. Nvidia had a good foot hold till AMD bought out ATi, then the 3870x2 was king, then the GTX280 rolled out and was king, and then the 4870x2 was, then the GTX295, and soon the 5870 or 5870x2.
> 
> It's just a back and forth thing, no ones playing into any game, the later product usually should be faster, thats why its later. But remember there is a 4890 right now, and with ATi having what sounds like a 4 to 6 month lead on a 40nm chip, they might have a barn burner 5890 ready to hit the market by the time Nvidia even joins them with a DX11 40nm GPU.



My X1950XT wants a word with you.


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## JATownes (Aug 25, 2009)

Anath said:


> If the rumors are true that the 5870 will have similiar/better performance than the 4870x2 then i will pick one up...however if not i think ill pick up two 4890s and put them in crossfire



You stole my plan...  I figure I am going to grab 2 4890s to replace my 4850s when the HD5000s launch (can you say price drop?), then wait til the new Nvidia cards launch (Dec-Jan) and grab a pair of 5870s (Price drop again?)


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## LittleLizard (Aug 25, 2009)

nice price. too bad it will cost like 400 dollars here.


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## Cuzza (Aug 25, 2009)

btarunr said:


> The secret-sauce behind the price could be the 40 nm fab process



MMmmmmmmmm secret sauce


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## Anath (Aug 25, 2009)

JATownes said:


> You stole my plan...  I figure I am going to grab 2 4890s to replace my 4850s when the HD5000s launch (can you say price drop?), then wait til the new Nvidia cards launch (Dec-Jan) and grab a pair of 5870s (Price drop again?)



haha dang i didnt even think about that picking them up when the nvidia cards come out haha thats a good idea...i still need to pick up a crossfire board though...maybe i can find a nice used one or a combo deal or something


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## nafets (Aug 25, 2009)

This pricing speculation is useless without some performance results, or even some actual specifications of the cards...

:/


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## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 25, 2009)

That would be nice if it retails at $300. It would be even nicer if it has performance around gtx295/4870x2.... Hey a guy can wish can't he?

Me wants benchmarks!!


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## Velvet Wafer (Aug 25, 2009)

aaaahhh!!!! i feeeeel it! this is the one! the one that will bring me orgiastic feelings again. fuck the reviews... it must be a monster... or otherwise tell me why its die seems to be monolitically big.. after a die SHRINK?


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## Disruptor4 (Aug 25, 2009)

JATownes said:


> You stole my plan...  I figure I am going to grab 2 4890s to replace my 4850s when the HD5000s launch (can you say price drop?), then wait til the new Nvidia cards launch (Dec-Jan) and grab a pair of 5870s (Price drop again?)



Why don't you just save your money and wait til the you plan to buy the 5870's?


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## ar09 (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> We do get ripped off on hardware prices though.



who rips you off? the americans or canadians or the germans...
you pay alot more. do people there pay cash for it?


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## Velvet Wafer (Aug 25, 2009)

ar09 said:


> who rips you off? the americans or canadians or the germans...
> you pay alot more. do people there pay cash for it?



thank you for reminding on us germans... we are forgotten too often


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## JATownes (Aug 25, 2009)

Disruptor4 said:


> Why don't you just save your money and wait til the you plan to buy the 5870's?



New Hardware Addiction??    Only response I have...But I think a lot of people here at TPU have the same addiction...

My 4850s are feeling aged...I have had 1 for a year and the other for 6 months (xfire  )...time for new toys.  

Edit: It also isn't about saving the money...I could afford them, I just know that I can get the EXACT same cards 4-5 months after launch for 60-70% of the launch date price.


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## YinYang.ERROR (Aug 25, 2009)

meh... Still waiting for the card that is in the $100 price range that will beat out the 4850.


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## 1nvisible (Aug 25, 2009)

DX11 what a joke, i am FUKING DONE! i'm not buying another card till the end of next year when they're on ebay for 80 bucks, this is madness, DX10 was a joke so what makes you think DX11 will be something when there is still no solid proof, its the same never ending cycle of putting money into these piss ass companies pockets while i sit here with no software and no real performance gain, all they do is make promises and stuff nothing but bloat-wear Physx and cuda crap in my ass.

You will not see real graphics improvements for years to come, i can stake on it, consoles are holding these cards back, game developers aren't writing codes anymore aimed at PC, I'm still playing CSS and battlefield for god sakes. all you're getting is fps, what game today can't hit over 60fps with a gtx260 and a quad.


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## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 25, 2009)

1nvisible said:


> DX11 what a joke, i am FUKING DONE! i am not buying another card till the end of next year when they are on ebay for 80 bucks, this is madness, DX10 was a joke so what makes you think DX11 will be something when there is still no solid proof, its the same never ending cycle of putting money into these piss ass companies pockets while i sit here with no software.
> 
> You will not see real graphics improvements for years to come, i can stake on it, consoles are holding these cards back, game developers aren't writing codes anymore aimed at PC, I'm still playing CSS and battlefield for god sakes. all you're getting is fps, what game today can't hit over 60fps with a gtx260 and a quad.



Well, for the most part I don't think people will be buying these cards for DX11 features. They will be buying it for improved performance. But you are right about consoles holding cards back. I don't really see the need to plop down $300 to get 200 fps instead of 150 . I guess the only case where this might not be true is if you are running at 2560x1600 or some other crazy resolution.

I just got the new Wolfenstein, and I had to turn on vsycnc because I was getting such high framerates it was tearing like mad. Probably the lack of AA option had a lot to do with it, but still.... :shadedshu But that just goes to show how any high end card made in the past year is going to destroy a console port. Developers just don't want to put effort into adding more effects for a *smaller* market...

Thus we have Crysis, probably still the most demanding PC game, and how old is it now? ...


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## ar09 (Aug 25, 2009)

Velvet Wafer said:


> thank you for reminding on us germans... we are forgotten too often



ati is canadian
nvidia is german
usa is all of the above. "they" work for the "greeddy" americans. (thats all i meant.)


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## 1nvisible (Aug 25, 2009)

ArmoredCavalry said:


> Well, for the most part I don't think people will be buying these cards for DX11 features. They will be buying it for improved performance. But you are right about consoles holding cards back. I don't really see the need to plop down $300 to get 200 fps instead of 150 . I guess the only case where this might not be true is if you are running at 2560x1600 or some other crazy resolution.
> 
> I just got the new Wolfenstein, and I had to turn on vsycnc because I was getting such high framerates it was tearing like mad. Probably the lack of AA option had a lot to do with it, but still.... :shadedshu But that just goes to show how any high end card made in the past year is going to destroy a console port. Developers just don't want to put effort into adding more effects for a *smaller* market...
> 
> Thus we have Crysis, probably still the most demanding PC game, and how old is it now? ...



I ran Crycrap just fine and uninstall it with satisfaction knowing my hardware did well, most people use it as a benchmarking tool without knowing part of it is ego, secondly "you put lipstick on a pig, its still a pig", in this case patches = lipstick Crycrap = pig, it's still a badly coded game no matter how many patches are released.

I have to enable Vsync with GRID @ 1680 16XQCSAA or else it plays like rubbish with massive amount of frame tear, a upgrade in Graphics card is just not something i need now.
And you would be surprise how many dumb noobs are saying they can't wait for Windows 7 with DX11.



ar09 said:


> ati is canadian
> nvidia is german
> usa is all of the above. "they" work for the "greeddy" americans. (thats all i meant.)



Right on, americans are a greedy consuming set.

As for price, its the same thing they're doing with the new PS3 slim.
299 US
299 Euro

as the guys over invisiblewalls are saying Europeans are getting hoes'd left and right.


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## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 25, 2009)

1nvisible said:


> And you would be surprise how many dumb noobs are saying they can't wait for Windows 7 with DX11.



Well I think it is ok to be excited about new technology (else I probably wouldn't be here). However, it is probably unrealistic to think that there will be a lot of games utilizing DX11 technology anytime soon. I'd like it if they did, but I'm a pessimist after DX10.

P.S. You can use multi-quote to respond to mutiple posts with a single response.


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## 1Kurgan1 (Aug 25, 2009)

Nick89 said:


> My X1950XT wants a word with you.



Yeah that is true that the x1900's were great cards, my x1950Pro was an awesome card. And even the 2900XT's could compete, but they just seemed to not compete unless they were OC'd like crazy, which they were OC'ing beasts. So I guess it just skipped 1 gen.



1nvisible said:


> DX11 what a joke, i am FUKING DONE! i'm not buying another card till the end of next year when they're on ebay for 80 bucks, this is madness, DX10 was a joke so what makes you think DX11 will be something when there is still no solid proof, its the same never ending cycle of putting money into these piss ass companies pockets while i sit here with no software and no real performance gain, all they do is make promises and stuff nothing but bloat-wear Physx and cuda crap in my ass.
> 
> You will not see real graphics improvements for years to come, i can stake on it, consoles are holding these cards back, game developers aren't writing codes anymore aimed at PC, I'm still playing CSS and battlefield for god sakes. all you're getting is fps, what game today can't hit over 60fps with a gtx260 and a quad.



It wasn't the DX10 that was huge, it was the leap in power. Think of a 7900 or a x1950 vs an 8800 or 3870 (or 3870x2). Those were pretty big increases in power. Like you said what can't be played at good fps with a GTX260 and a qaud, but remember, GTX260 is the newest generation of cards made.


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## Hayder_Master (Aug 25, 2009)

compare it with 4890 this cards looks good for performance per dollar , also if we not make any trolling this card have near performance to GTX285


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## a_ump (Aug 25, 2009)

i seriously dout that the HD 5870 is gonna have compeitive performance with the GTX 285. it's definitely going to outperform it by a decent margin, the HD 4890 isn't far behind it already, it is below it but not by far. This is the exact price i was hoping the HD 5870 would retail at so the day its released its gonna be mine . i can't wait.


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## A Cheese Danish (Aug 25, 2009)

ar09 said:


> ati is canadian
> nvidia is german
> usa is all of the above. "they" work for the "greeddy" americans. (thats all i meant.)



You are right about ATi being founded in Canada. But I though nVidia was American? Based in California.

That is neither here nor there. I probably won't be pleased with anything said about the 58xx series cards 
until I see some benchmarks.


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 25, 2009)

I wish I knew when they were coming out.  This 8800GT is becoming more trouble than its worth (BSODs).  $300 is the price I'm willing to pay for a new card so "YAY" to that. XD


...but that also might mean it sucks/not competitive with NVIDIA cards.


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## csendesmark (Aug 25, 2009)

_


ar09 said:



			ati is canadian
nvidia is german
usa is all of the above. "they" work for the "greeddy" americans. (thats all i meant.)
		
Click to expand...

_Headquarters: Santa Clara, California
USA

founded by former AMD and Sun employees


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> It'll be £299 in the rip off uk.



No it won't, the same way the 3870 and 4870 both were NOT £299.

I know England is expensive, but seriously, don't resort to making it up.

The 3870 was $299 + VAT basically. As was the 4850 and 4870.

When the 4850 and 70 were released, I got two 4850s. The exchange rate at the time was around $2 to £1 and coincidently, my 4850s were about £105+VAT = £120 each.

Oh yeah, I see the massive rip off now. Technically speaking 4850s and 70s were cheaper over here pre VAT than they were in the US.

At least use your brain when you decide to post a comment.


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## Velvet Wafer (Aug 25, 2009)

ar09 said:


> nvidia is german



thats not true. i dont believe nvidia has not a factory over here, and its not a single bit german (if you ignore operation "paperclip").... Germany is ATI country, due to 2 linked fabs (globalfoundries fab 36+ 38, today named fab1 modul1 and modul2), out of 3 worldwide... 

the whole lot is named: AMD Saxony, its not even a daughter company of AMD anymore


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## EarlZ (Aug 25, 2009)

I dont see how $299 is priced aggressively, whats the speculated performance on a single 5870 is it better than a 4870X2 ?


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## zOaib (Aug 25, 2009)

great news !!! anyways for all my UK techpowerup users if you need the 5870 i can buy one and mail it to you for the amount newegg sells them (will not charge you any service fee) as long as you pay shipping and all related expenses =) 

(PM me if anyone needs).


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## FordGT90Concept (Aug 25, 2009)

ATI was Canadian; it was bought out by AMD which is USA.
NVIDIA is USA.

ATI and NVIDIA outsourced production.




EarlZ said:


> I dont see how $299 is priced aggressively, whats the speculated performance on a single 5870 is it better than a 4870X2 ?


Theoretically it is.  Won't know for sure until it is benchmarked.


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## EarlZ (Aug 25, 2009)

Hopefully it does out perform a 4870X2 but its a tad bit expensive at $299, should be $230~249


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## Tatty_One (Aug 25, 2009)

So, let me get this right....... the 5870 is priced around the GTX285 price point which would suggest that it will be no more than around 5% faster at best, if it was more, they would charge more, even ATi like to make a little money outta their hardware, I kind of find this a little dissapointing as this is a generation on from the G200 series, kind of suggests that the 5870 x2 will only be marginally faster than the 295 (possibly 10%), makes you wonder what all the hype is really, ATi had better have something up their sleeve when the G300 whateveritscalled is released later on by NVidia otherwise the Green side are going to be charging a mint for "the worlds fastest single and multi GPU's", kind of sucks really :shadedshu


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## Sihastru (Aug 25, 2009)

I don't want to flame or anything but if the 5870-class card is less then 50% more powerfull then a GTX285, then it will be an _epic fail_.

Lately I've seen the efficiency game they played came back to bite them in their behinds with power consumption numbers so high they weren't even funny. So I think TDP was a thorn in their necks when designing this thing.

I am expecting close to double the performance of the current single GPU flagship models, and at least 2 digit percent faster then the GTX295... and I want it to be more efficient then the current single PCB GTX295, and to have better thermals.

Don't get me wrong, they promised me that "I won't believe my eyes"... and I don't want to be disappointed. But the more information is being released the more I think this will only be an incremental upgrade and they will use their _marketing machinery_ to throw DX11 and that thing called "tesselation" in my face like it really matters when you play next-gen games at 20fps...


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 25, 2009)

I stated £299 but it was an overestimate to show how overpriced it will be in the uk.I bet it will be at least £230+ in the uk for a 5870.I lol'd at £185 for a 5870,we should be so lucky.


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## HalfAHertz (Aug 25, 2009)

Whoa did anyone see this pictures?











Talk about scalable architecture. This flips everything upside down. You can have a main GPU and scale the architecture whit as many SPs as you can fit on a PCB. Jusging from the pics each chip has 4 SP nests for a total of 4x80=320SPs and the HD5870 will end up at a net of 1600. Dang but it sure looks like they're wasting alot of transistors this way. This seems to be a concept but dang it sure looks good


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## wiak (Aug 25, 2009)

5870 will be around $299 just like 4870 and 3870 before it 
5850 will be around $199 just like 4850 and 3850 before it
compared to nvidia cards it will be a uber great price vs performance ratio


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## Velvet Wafer (Aug 25, 2009)

HalfAHertz said:


> Whoa did anyone see this pictures?
> 
> http://idg.bg/test/pcw/2009/8/25/13058-ATi5000Series.jpg
> http://idg.bg/test/pcw/2009/8/25/13058-ATi5870Concept.jpg
> ...



lol no solid caps,4drams,when it should be 1gb, a true fake... and is months old


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## pr0n Inspector (Aug 25, 2009)

HalfAHertz said:


> Whoa did anyone see this pictures?
> 
> 
> Talk about scalable architecture. This flips everything upside down. You can have a main GPU and scale the architecture whit as many SPs as you can fit on a PCB. Jusging from the pics each chip has 4 SP nests for a total of 4x80=320SPs and the HD5870 will end up at a net of 1600. Dang but it sure looks like they're wasting alot of transistors this way. This seems to be a concept but dang it sure looks good



"Concept by DudeOnTheInternet™"

And why did you cropped the "01/03/2006" part?


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## HalfAHertz (Aug 25, 2009)

pr0n Inspector said:


> "Concept by DudeOnTheInternet™"
> 
> And why did you cropped the "01/03/2006" part?



Huh?


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## largon (Aug 25, 2009)

werez said:


> Anyway :
> 
> http://img.techpowerup.org/090824/radeon_hd_5870_specs_reveal_full.jpg


Considering that chart list wrongs spec for HD4870 and HD4870X2 I find it unlikely those 5k series numbers would be real either. 


HalfAHertz said:


> Whoa did anyone see this pictures?
> 
> http://idg.bg/test/pcw/2009/8/25/13058-ATi5000Series.jpg
> http://idg.bg/test/pcw/2009/8/25/13058-ATi5870Concept.jpg


Those cards are utterly ridiculous and totally imaginary.


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## HalfAHertz (Aug 25, 2009)

largon said:


> Considering that chart list wrongs spec for HD4870 and HD4870X2 I find it unlikely those 5k series numbers would be real either.
> Those cards are utterly ridiculous and totally imaginary.



Yea but the principle is good


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## largon (Aug 25, 2009)

HalfAHertz said:


> Yea but the principle is good


Not really. 
First of all, there's no interconnect in existence with bandwidth high enough and/or latency low enough that would allow such a modular design, unless internal Crossfire was used and that would totally destroy any efficiency. Secondly, the PCB would be monsterously complex, large and expensive to make. Just to point out a few astronomically large obstacles. 



HalfAHertz said:


> The way I see it, if they keep to the same form factor of the die, moving from 55nm to 40 nm means 1,375 times more transistors( 55/40)
> So if we take the 800SPs of the rv770 and multiply it with 1,375, we end up at 1100, which is not dividable by 80, Thus rounding the final number to 1120 or going for a bit bigger die and ending up at 1200SPs.


Except for the fact a chip of a given size made on 40nm can have 89% more transistors compared to same size chip on 55nm. ASICs are 2-dimensional, not 1-dimensional.


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> So, let me get this right....... the 5870 is priced around the GTX285 price point which would suggest that it will be no more than around 5% faster at best, if it was more, they would charge more, even ATi like to make a little money outta their hardware, I kind of find this a little dissapointing as this is a generation on from the G200 series, kind of suggests that the 5870 x2 will only be marginally faster than the 295 (possibly 10%), makes you wonder what all the hype is really, ATi had better have something up their sleeve when the G300 whateveritscalled is released later on by NVidia otherwise the Green side are going to be charging a mint for "the worlds fastest single and multi GPU's", kind of sucks really :shadedshu




Come on as if, why would they bother? Considering an overclocked 4890 can end up 5% faster than a GTX285, where's the logic in creating a new chip that's a few percent faster than their previous highend chip?

What they mean is that it will be their card closest in price to the GTX285.

They did the same with the 4800s. They said they were to compete with G92 GPUs yet they were much faster, they only reason they were deemed G92 competition was due to their pricings.

They know better than to sell their latest cards at expensive prices. It's nVidia that doesn't understand the process of lowering the price and selling bucketloads.

4800s outsold GT200 based cards by a huge amount for this very reason, even though they're similar in performance.

ATi's high end was priced the same as nVidia's middle end, yet offered nVidia highend performance. Of course they're going to sell far more.

Add on to that the low cost of manufacture and there's no reason for them to 'overprice' their cards the way nVidia do.

They know it's not about 'Let's put the highest price possible on these cards'. They will definitely sell more and make far more money if more people buy them at a lower price.

It's so simple, I don't get why people assume they're gonna charge crazy prices for their cards. ATi has ended the day of silly priced cards, nVidia have to go cheaper to compete and this is where ATi are destroying nVidia.


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## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 25, 2009)

kylew said:


> Come on as if, why would they bother? Considering an overclocked 4890 can end up 5% faster than a GTX285, where's the logic in creating a new chip that's a few percent faster than their previous highend chip?
> 
> What they mean is that it will be their card closest in price to the GTX285.
> 
> ...



Thank you sir.


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

ArmoredCavalry said:


> Thank you sir.




No problems squire.


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> I stated £299 but it was an overestimate to show how overpriced it will be in the uk.I bet it will be at least £230+ in the uk for a 5870.I lol'd at £185 for a 5870,we should be so lucky.




Did you even read my post? 

'We should be so lucky' eh?

Looks like we've been lucky two times already if you remember.

Read my post again, especially the part where I reminded you that the 3850, 3870, 4850 and 4870 were all their US price plus VAT.

So yes that is $199, $299, $199 and $299 again. Why do you insist on stating otherwise when the last two gens of ATi's cards have been priced as such? You can do all the betting you want, but there's nothing to suggest this price of £230+ that you've made up.

As long as they're $199 and $299 then they're going to be the same for the UK +VAT.

So currently that's about £180+VAT for a 5870. Instead of making things up, keep to that pricing scheme as it's been the same for over a year.


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## 1nvisible (Aug 25, 2009)

1Kurgan1 said:


> but remember, GTX260 is the newest generation of cards made.



GTX260 is almost a year old and there is nothing new about its technology, the 8800GTX and GTS were the first new generation of cards, those were the first DX10, Physx, cuda, along with other rubbish, nothing with significant change has taken place since the release of those cards.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 25, 2009)

Considering a bfg gtx295 is $499.99 on newegg and £359 on ocuk when $500 is £305 using xe exchange site,thats £50 more in the uk.So £180+50 is £230,we'll see if your right.


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> Considering a bfg gtx295 is $499.99 on newegg and £359 on ocuk when $500 is £305 using xe exchange site,thats £50 more in the uk.So £180+50 is £230,we'll see if your right.



I'm convinced that you're not reading my posts. I keep telling you, US price PLUS VAT.

What's £305 + VAT @ 15%? It surely can't be about £350 can it? I think you'll find it is. A £9 discrepancy at £350 is hardly 'rip off' bearing in mind there are slight variations in price between stores anyway.


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## ghost101 (Aug 25, 2009)

I also advise ignoring the preorder rip off prices overclockers uk will undoubtedly have.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Aug 25, 2009)

Going by the thread on the overclockers forum,its not just me that thinks the prices will be higher than you seem to think.

And i am reading your posts,i just think you're been a bit too optimistic.


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## erocker (Aug 25, 2009)

They'll be selling for $299 for a few hours. Then retailers will realize they are flying out the door and start price gouging. History repeats itself.


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> Going by the thread on the overclockers forum,its not just me that thinks the prices will be higher than you seem to think.
> 
> And i am reading your posts,i just think you're been a bit too optimistic.



And I've said the same things to them too. Last time with the 4800s people were saying the same thing, and I was saying the same as I am now.


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## Izliecies (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> Going by the thread on the overclockers forum



Share a link?


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 25, 2009)

Going by last gen, the 4870 was faster than the 3870x2.
This gen, the 5870 will be faster than the 4870x2.
Last gen, the 4870 came in at 300$ US
There may be a slightly higher intro price, due to lack of competition, but not much greater, plus the sellers bump included


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## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 25, 2009)

erocker said:


> They'll be selling for $299 for a few hours. Then retailers will realize they are flying out the door and start price gouging. History repeats itself.



Yeap, I think my 4870 was like $320ish, got it the first week of release. Newegg kept selling out so I ended up paying a little more at a different retailer. I'm not in a huge rush this time though. I think I'll sit back and watch the developments.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 25, 2009)

kylew said:


> Come on as if, why would they bother? Considering an overclocked 4890 can end up 5% faster than a GTX285, where's the logic in creating a new chip that's a few percent faster than their previous highend chip?
> 
> What they mean is that it will be their card closest in price to the GTX285.
> 
> ...



Well firstly, forget about the HD4890 overclocked is slightly faster than a GTX285 at STOCK, they dont talk that language, stock to stock, reference to reference, secondly, to be clear (I have owned both cards), an HD4890 overclocked in excess of 1000mhz is marginally faster than a stock GTX285 (across the board), at stock speeds for both cards the GTX285 is probably about 8-10% faster across the board, so a 5870 that is 5% faster than a 285 would be upto a 15% performance improvement on a 4890, thats fairly normal in next gen cards, yes sometimes you get a bit more but rarely like 25 - 50%.

Maybe I am a skeptic, but the cost of manufacturing is only one factor in pricing points, both companies price their hardware based on it's performance, usually most of us moan about NVidia's over inflated prices, thats mostly because they quite often have the fastest and therefore feel they can charge the premium, when they dont or they get it wrong, their prices tumble to compensate, the G200 was a good example of this...... the GTX280 to be specific..... why would we think that ATi would be any different?  They priced the 4870 512MB really well on it's release, but thats because it didnt have any significant advantage agains the top end opposition, if it had.... do you really think they would of held it at the same release price?  Add to that their 2nd ranking card (4850) was not as quick as NVidia's (GTX260) which was only  a little behind the 4870 512MB in some things so they has to be real careful there, it is often the other sides marketing that helps dictate this sides pricing as we know.

IMO, the botttom line "might be", that a 15% performace increase over the 4890 and therefore around a 5% performance improvement over the 285 would fall pretty much in line with some of ATi's new offerings over the past couple of years and would still give them the "fastest single GPU" and probably multi GPU at least until the G300 thingy comes out then the picture changes yet again....... mostly as usual.

Of course as the optimist, you may well be right, IDK, if when the card is released it 15% or more faster than the 285, I will gladly send you a PM to point out that I was wrong.


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 25, 2009)

Having the 1 gig of memory on board, and having the most radical change in some aspects since the R600 series, as claimed by ATI themself, and just going by the most conservative estimates of 1200 shders, which is a 50% bump, add all that up, plus whatever else theres going to be, and to expect just a 15% increase is bad ROI, and will quickly be seen as a failure.


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## kylew (Aug 25, 2009)

tigger said:


> Going by the thread on the overclockers forum,its not just me that thinks the prices will be higher than you seem to think.
> 
> And i am reading your posts,i just think you're been a bit too optimistic.



Care to explain how I'm being too optimistic? You have inadvertently demonstrated that what I'm saying it's true.

You tried to prove me wrong by stating the US price of a GTX295 as an example of how I'm wrong yet you assisted in proving me right.

Graphics card prices are the US price PLUS VAT. Don't forget the PLUS VAT.

Yet you say I'm being too optimistic.


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## kylew (Aug 26, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> Well firstly, forget about the HD4890 overclocked is slightly faster than a GTX285 at STOCK, they dont talk that language, stock to stock, reference to reference, secondly, to be clear (I have owned both cards), an HD4890 overclocked in excess of 1000mhz is marginally faster than a stock GTX285 (across the board), at stock speeds for both cards the GTX285 is probably about 8-10% faster across the board, so a 5870 that is 5% faster than a 285 would be upto a 15% performance improvement on a 4890, thats fairly normal in next gen cards, yes sometimes you get a bit more but rarely like 25 - 50%.
> 
> Maybe I am a skeptic, but the cost of manufacturing is only one factor in pricing points, both companies price their hardware based on it's performance, usually most of us moan about NVidia's over inflated prices, thats mostly because they quite often have the fastest and therefore feel they can charge the premium, when they dont or they get it wrong, their prices tumble to compensate, the G200 was a good example of this...... the GTX280 to be specific..... why would we think that ATi would be any different?  They priced the 4870 512MB really well on it's release, but thats because it didnt have any significant advantage agains the top end opposition, if it had.... do you really think they would of held it at the same release price?  Add to that their 2nd ranking card (4850) was not as quick as NVidia's (GTX260) which was only  a little behind the 4870 512MB in some things so they has to be real careful there, it is often the other sides marketing that helps dictate this sides pricing as we know.
> 
> ...



I honestly think you don't really know what you're talking about. Do you honestly actually think that a next gen card is going to be 15% faster than the last? That's utter nonsense.

As for the average speed increase between generations, 25-50%? I call a huge amount of BS on that.

Since I had a 9800, nVidia and ATi have both brought cards out that were roughly 2x the performance of the last generation.

They wouldn't bother with a 15% increase. It's laughable that you're even willing to suggest that.

Seriously, I don't know anyone that would be interested in next gen cards if they go by your numbers. Maybe you're really bad at maths or something? As for the 4870 512MB, that was faster than the original GTX260, and is neck and with the latest GTX260. The 4850 was around the same speed as the original GTX260 yet it was priced at G92 price points.

ATi is a business, it knows how to run its business. It doesn't make sense to price as high as possible. No where near the same amount of cards would get sold if they did.

Even if you want to factor greed in to the equation, then they'll still reduce the price and sell bucketloads. What OEMs are going to choose nVidia cards of ATi's when they cost far less while offering similar performance? 



Are you drunk or something?


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## a_ump (Aug 26, 2009)

eh, the HD 4850 is good bit less performing than the GTX 260, and the GTX 260 c216 beats the HD 4870 512mb in almost every benchmark, the HD 4870 1gb can almost keep up but still is slightly n i mean just slightly behind. It really comes down to which games ur playing when u choose between a GTX 260 c216 and HD 4870 1gb. 

i do very much agree however that a 15% increase from the HD 4890 is ridiculous. The HD 4870-HD 4890 is almost a 15% increase and that was just increased clock speeds. I think the HD 5870 is going to yield 30-50% increase, it has 32rops which will help greatly with higher resolutions and AA even though the HD 48X0 series already handles it fine, and as stated at least a 50% increase in shaders, not to mention general core refining on tweaks and probable shader performance increase from the shaders that were on the HD 4XX0 series. No way in hell it'll only be 15% faster than the HD 4890


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## Super XP (Aug 26, 2009)

You know what? I think AMD is playing it safe right now, I believe the HD 5870's are going to perform disgustingly much faster than anything Nvidia will have to offer at the time of it's release, just look at the HD 5870's spec's, it almost doubles the HD 4870.

There's something up AMD's sleeve and it's "Price/Performance" something Nvidia stinks at.


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## Nick89 (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm hoping for at least a 40% increase with the 5870 over the 4890.


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## a_ump (Aug 26, 2009)

Nick89 said:


> I'm hoping for at least a 40% increase with the 5870 over the 4890.



i wouldn't dout it. n i'm hopin for at least that as well cause i'm gettin one when they're released


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## damtachoa (Aug 26, 2009)

I expect 5870 to be at $199-$250. Not everyone have a job nowaday.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 26, 2009)

kylew said:


> I'm convinced that you're not reading my posts. I keep telling you, US price PLUS VAT.
> 
> What's £305 + VAT @ 15%? It surely can't be about £350 can it? I think you'll find it is. A £9 discrepancy at £350 is hardly 'rip off' bearing in mind there are slight variations in price between stores anyway.



You have a very good point there, however when comparing US to UK prices you cannot just add 15% VAT to it, for example, you must DEDUCT US sales tax from the US price before adding the 15% VAT, currently US sales tax is as low as 2.9% or as high as 7.25% depending on which state, although a couple have zero ratings, I am guessing that sales tax is levvied on goods dependant on where in this case Newegg is located as opposed to where the consumer lives.... not sure on that one.


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## Tatty_One (Aug 26, 2009)

kylew said:


> I honestly think you don't really know what you're talking about. Do you honestly actually think that a next gen card is going to be 15% faster than the last? That's utter nonsense.
> 
> As for the average speed increase between generations, 25-50%? I call a huge amount of BS on that.
> 
> ...



Lol, so the 8800GT and 8800GTS 512MB were twice as fast as the 8800GTS 320 and 640 and the 8800GTX/Ultra?  Ohhhh and the HD3870 was of course twice as fast as the 2900XT?  sorry try around 10-15%..... so who is drinking?

As for pricing.... well you seem to be forgetting a key point in your argument, so I will quote a specific comment of yours.....

_"It doesn't make sense to price as high as possible. No where near the same amount of cards would get sold if they did"_

You seem to be forgetting that the high/top end cards in a generation only account for 5 - 10% of the sales and thats why specifically manufacturers can sell them at a premium, but they only get away with it successfully if they are holding the No 1 spot, it's easy to say ATI dont do that because more often than not (but not exclusively) they dont often tend to have a significant long term performance advantage over it's main competitior.

It's clear that some of us differ in our opinions here, aside from the fact that you seem to think some of us have been drinking because of those opinions, lets just wait and see the pricing point on release both in the US and UK and how the card performs, then as I said, if you are right, I will be the first to let you know!  *All I am simply saying is, that if the new card is lets say 25% faster, then i expect it to be priced more highly than speculated, if it is released at the $299 or below, i expect lesser performance.*

Personally, I think ATi will overcharge us for their high end product, but just until NVidia releases it's new offerings, I acknowledge that if you get the performance to merit that price it is more digestable, but thats kind of my point all along.


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 26, 2009)

Actually, traditionally, the high end of the old gen is considered the mid range of the new in most new generations.
To claim either the 2xxx gen or even the 3xxx gen as a successful generation in performance, well, we all remember the 2900, and the 3xxx gen was a shrink and brang cooler temps and lower power, with slight improvements, and did very little to stop nVidia dominance with their 8xxx series.
nVidia has since been called lazy, living off their past, renaming instead of moving forwards since the release of the G80, and people were somewhat underwhelmed by the performance of the G200 series. Especially, being that it was such a long time in between a "real" new gen
Prior to that, we saw what I said, the mid range new gen = to the old gens top card. So, a 5850 could very well = a 4870x2, and just as the 4870 topped the 3870x2, it will be higher yet.
Thats the real history, or recent history of gfx cards, with a lil perspective thrown in


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## Tatty_One (Aug 26, 2009)

jaydeejohn said:


> Actually, traditionally, the high end of the old gen is considered the mid range of the new in most new generations.
> To claim either the 2xxx gen or even the 3xxx gen as a successful generation in performance, well, we all remember the 2900, and the 3xxx gen was a shrink and brang cooler temps and lower power, with slight improvements, and did very little to stop nVidia dominance with their 8xxx series.
> nVidia has since been called lazy, living off their past, renaming instead of moving forwards since the release of the G80, and people were somewhat underwhelmed by the performance of the G200 series. Especially, being that it was such a long time in between a "real" new gen
> Prior to that, we saw what I said, the mid range new gen = to the old gens top card. So, a 5850 could very well = a 4870x2, and just as the 4870 topped the 3870x2, it will be higher yet.
> Thats the real history, or recent history of gfx cards, with a lil perspective thrown in




You are right of course, however a 5850 COULD = a 4870x2 in performance...... do you really think it will?  which is why i said it's probably best to wait until it arrives if only to prove my skeptisicm wrong.


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 26, 2009)

Lets look at what we know.
The 4770, with its lessor amount of shaders, can crank up to 4890 speeds, but still has inferior ram.
At those speeds (1Ghz core) its the equivilent of the 4890.
Now, add better ram, thats 50% faster, add at least 100% more shaders, and the same core clocks, with improved schedular etc etc, and that card alone would put down a 285.
Now add possibly more shaders, and maybe doubling everything, I can see it happening
The 4770 at 1Ghz is = to a 4890, thats with 640 shaders, and inferior ram, its already been done and benched


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## largon (Aug 26, 2009)

After HD4800 series launch I'd think people would have learned that it makes no sense whatsoever to try to speculate performance via _rumoured_ retail price.


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## kylew (Aug 26, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> Lol, so the 8800GT and 8800GTS 512MB were twice as fast as the 8800GTS 320 and 640 and the 8800GTX/Ultra?  Ohhhh and the HD3870 was of course twice as fast as the 2900XT?  sorry try around 10-15%..... so who is drinking?
> 
> As for pricing.... well you seem to be forgetting a key point in your argument, so I will quote a specific comment of yours.....
> 
> ...



I understand what you're saying, but to quote the 'gen' difference between R600 and RV670 and G80 to G92 is in my opinion being extremely selective.

Outside of the name change, there wasn't really a 'next gen' jump between both lots.

I'm talking real generation jumps. 

9800>X800>x1800>2900/3870>4800s

Each step there was roughly a doubling of performance. Same goes for nVidia's parts too.

FX 5800>6800>7800>8800/G92 8800s and 9800s>GTX200 series

We all know the jumps from 2900s and G80 8800s was nothing more than a respin.

They were basically the same jumps that happened between:

9700Pro > 9800 pro/XT 

X800XT> X850XT

X1800XT>X1900XT>X1950XT

FX 5800>FX5900 >FX 5950Ultra

6800>6800 Ultra

7800>7900>7950 Ultra.

As for expecting less performance, there's nothing to suggest that's the case. The 3800s and 4800s prove that. ATi want to price their cards at the prices they want them at.

They're forcibly bringing highend parts to the more mainstream sectors. I remember when mid range cards cost the same as what ATi have priced their XX50 and XX70 at.

They're trying to advance the gaming industry as well as going for value over anything else. Don't forget ATi saying that they don't intend to bring any reference cards out at more than $550. That means their X2 cards are at most $550, their single GPU cards are going to have to be roughly half that.

My point is that people are speculating to the point of making things up that go against past card releases. We should use past releases as a datum unless we hear otherwise.


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 26, 2009)

Thats the problem, people do forget.
I understand that ATI is in a different situation than they were with the 4xxx series, but theyve gained huge momentum, theyll have the market to themselves for at least 2 months, and yes, they may come in a lil higher than before, but it wont be monstrous.
I remember an interview with someone at ATO when the first DX11 slides were shown I think it was PCPer, and thats when the pleasantly surprised statement came out, and also a small blurb refering to pricing in an offhand way, meaning good prices, excellent perf, but possibly a lil higher

Ill dig it up


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 26, 2009)

"I would say we don't make money by delivering slow hardware. Our expectation is that we'll give you a really pleasant surprise this year when we ship our DX11 hardware."
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,689522/AMD-beliefs-DirectX-11-Radeons-pleasantly-fast/News/
To me, this leaves the door open a bit for pricing, as long as the perf is there


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## LaidLawJones (Aug 26, 2009)

A different take. 

IF! the new card can perform as well as some say and is equal to or even slightly better than the 295, I am saying this as there are a lot of people who say it will outperform a 4870X2 putting it into the 295 realm, then the $500-$800 295 will suddenly find itself with fewer buyers.Why pay   $500 when for $200 less I can get the same/better card? Nvidia will be forced to reduce price on a card that I gather is expensive to make. 

As Nvidia won't have anything to counter with for a couple of months, ATI could seriously hurt them and take a chunk of market.

This is just an idea and is based on ATI not falling flat on their faces with the launch. Cough AMD cough cough.


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## Valdez (Aug 26, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> So, let me get this right....... the 5870 is priced around the GTX285 price point which would suggest that it will be no more than around 5% faster at best, if it was more, they would charge more, even ATi like to make a little money outta their hardware, I kind of find this a little dissapointing as this is a generation on from the G200 series, kind of suggests that the 5870 x2 will only be marginally faster than the 295 (possibly 10%), makes you wonder what all the hype is really, ATi had better have something up their sleeve when the G300 whateveritscalled is released later on by NVidia otherwise the Green side are going to be charging a mint for "the worlds fastest single and multi GPU's", kind of sucks really :shadedshu



Lol man, do you really believe, that amd will release a whole new generation of gpu's which are only 5% faster than teh previous generation? 
You must be joking


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## Tatty_One (Aug 27, 2009)

kylew said:


> I understand what you're saying, but to quote the 'gen' difference between R600 and RV670 and G80 to G92 is in my opinion being extremely selective.



I dont think you can discount those minor "facelift" generation changes as they form the majority of  upgrades.  Also.... it's hardly my fault that ATi didnt make any huge architectural leaps going from the 2 to the 3 series.... speak to them, fact is, the majority of new genertions are not huge architectural changes simply because the R & D costs are to high and neither company could sustain it, it's often how well they do with the more minor changes on "facelift" release that determine the success, the 4890 is a good example of that I think, along perhaps with the 8800GT/GTS, although of course I acknowledge that the 5 series is a major change so that should see higher %'s of performance improvement, our only real differences on this topic is that you beleive that we will see a 25 - 50% performance improvement over the 4890 for a top end card thats retail point will be $299, as you know, my skepticism thinks that for $299 we will get a little less performance or pay a higher price for it.




Valdez said:


> Lol man, do you really believe, that amd will release a whole new generation of gpu's which are only 5% faster than teh previous generation?
> You must be joking



No I dont think the performance increase will only be 5% at all, someone else earlier mentioned that supposidly the new 5870 would be just 5% faster than a GTX285, to be precise, what I have said (guessed) is that for $299 I dont think that there would be much more than a 15% performance gain over the existing gen and if there was a 25-50% improvement (which would be good!) then I just think that we will be paying more than $299 for it, at least until NVidia's new offerings arrive....... I have also said that I could be very wrong and it's best to wait and see, as largon said, speculation like this is rarely accurate in any case.

The friendly debate we have had was more about the validity of my reasons for coming to that conclusion as much as the conclusion itself but time will tell.  of course I really do hope we get a single GPU solution from ATi that is as fast as a 4870x2 and nearly as quick as a GTX295 for $299


----------



## jaydeejohn (Aug 27, 2009)

1 other thing I didnt mention on what we know.
The new cards will have double the flops vs the 4xxx series.
You do realize, to command marketshare, you have to pirce properly, come in (with product) at opportune times, and most importantly, deliver.
In the 4xxx series, we saw ATI slowly move down the entire market with highly competitive products, at great pricing, which drove nVidia products pricing down as they arrived.
I dont have the number, but the 4830 was priced well enough to make nVidia move it 9600 down in pricing to be competitive.
Later, the 4770/4850 moved down as well, while nVidia had their old gen parts relatively high.

ATI has gained 4% overall marketshare in this last qtr, they have momentum.
ATI is releasing a DX11 part, where no competition stands in its way, other than old nVidia parts, which due to process and perf to nm size, it loses badly, as the G92s will be out of the competition.
So, in order to truly move the market in their favor, they have to : Beat nVidia current best, the G200 series
They have to price accordingly to do so, so as to not lose that momentum and the timing, with the release of a new OS, and holidays around the corner.
Best method?
Make high performing parts,  with no true competition, where the competitors real only competing parts are too costly, and underperforming comparatively.
Thats why the confidence. They have the perf, they have the product, and the time is now.
To screw it over by pricing, or low perf wouldnt show this confidence we see.

So, Ive listed how ell theyll do by what is already here. Ive shown why theyre so confident and why a 20% jump doesnt fit into anything theyve been trying to achieve since the R600 debacle


----------



## Tatty_One (Aug 27, 2009)

jaydeejohn said:


> 1 other thing I didnt mention on what we know.
> The new cards will have double the flops vs the 4xxx series.
> You do realize, to command marketshare, you have to pirce properly, come in (with product) at opportune times, and most importantly, deliver.
> In the 4xxx series, we saw ATI slowly move down the entire market with highly competitive products, at great pricing, which drove nVidia products pricing down as they arrived.
> ...



I agree completely with all you have said, your theory is spot on, lets just see if it is born out in practice is all I am saying.


----------



## largon (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm expecting ~100% increase over RV790. 
And that's _not_ just a guess.


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## jaydeejohn (Aug 27, 2009)

They want name recognition. All this has to come at the expense of nVidia, whos a more widely known brand.
ATI is playing the upstart spoiler, with low pricing and great perf, why upset that now? It wouldnt make good business sense
If their cards were only so so, the need for the rush and big presentation aboard ship wouldnt be there. Itd be toned down, possibly later, when W7 arrives, not before, and theyll be here beforehand


----------



## Anath (Aug 27, 2009)

jaydeejohn said:


> They want name recognition. All this has to come at the expense of nVidia, whos a more widely known brand.
> ATI is playing the upstart spoiler, with low pricing and great perf, why upset that now? It wouldnt make good business sense
> If their cards were only so so, the need for the rush and big presentation aboard ship wouldnt be there. Itd be toned down, possibly later, when W7 arrives, not before, and theyll be here beforehand



Exactly because if they were to make a big presentation with their new cards only to deliver average performance increase not only would it stop their momentum but nvidia would not take ati seriously and not be worried about market share loss. Also, consumers would not take ati seriously either they will still look at ati as the lower brand compared to nvidia. Its sad to say that business' in todays market still underestimate their competitor which is what i think nvidia keeps doing which caused ati to gain that 4 percent market share you guys were talking about earlier. If ati delivers well thats good news for us. Nvidia will have to lower prices and we will see both companies utilizing very good price/performance ratio's


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## jagd (Aug 28, 2009)

I think it is what well see , gtx295 is 540$ +VAT in my country 2 5870s for 600$+ VAT (assuminng 299$ for 5870 is correct)  will be bargain when compared to gtx295 .Well see massive price drops from nvdia like happened with gtx260s/8800gts-9800gtx even than theyll be at disadvantage dx10 vs dx11 


LaidLawJones said:


> A different take.
> 
> IF! the new card can perform as well as some say and is equal to or even slightly better than the 295, I am saying this as there are a lot of people who say it will outperform a 4870X2 putting it into the 295 realm, then the $500-$800 295 will suddenly find itself with fewer buyers.Why pay   $500 when for $200 less I can get the same/better card? Nvidia will be forced to reduce price on a card that I gather is expensive to make.


----------



## DailymotionGamer (Aug 29, 2009)

Stupid question, but where are photos of these new ati cards and why did they jump up so far in numbers, the last ati card was what the 4890, well wouldn't it make more sense for them to jump to 5000?


----------



## ArmoredCavalry (Aug 29, 2009)

u2konline said:


> Stupid question, but where are photos of these new ati cards and why did they jump up so far in numbers, the last ati card was what the 4890, well wouldn't it make more sense for them to jump to 5000?



They haven't officially been released to the press yet. There are a few pictures floating around I have seen (like the one showing the 2 hdmi/ 2 dvi ports in back).

Also, the last 2 generations of ATI cards have been 3850/3870 ($200/$300) and 4850/4870 ($200/$300) so it makes perfect sense to go with 5870 for the high end $300 card...


----------



## DailymotionGamer (Aug 30, 2009)

Oh i see. Thanks, you guys enjoy them tho.


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## Super XP (Aug 30, 2009)

http://vr-zone.com/articles/-rumour-amd-dx11-cypress-is-radeon-hd-5870--hd-5850/7469.html?doc=7469

*[Rumour] AMD DX11 Cypress is Radeon HD 5870 & HD 5850
Published on Monday, August 24 2009 3:41 pm by Visionary              
Filed under: AMD, Graphics Cards, News*



> AMD has informed their partners that their upcoming DX11 Cypress cards will be known as Radeon HD 5800 series. Cypress XT is Radeon HD 5870 while Cypress PRO is Radeon HD 5850. The key features of these DX11 cards are :
> 
> • 1GB GDDR5 memory
> • ATI Eyefinity technology with support for up to three displays
> ...


----------



## Nick89 (Sep 1, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> You have a very good point there, however when comparing US to UK prices you cannot just add 15% VAT to it, for example, you must DEDUCT US sales tax from the US price before adding the 15% VAT, currently US sales tax is as low as 2.9% or as high as 7.25% depending on which state, although a couple have zero ratings, I am guessing that sales tax is levvied on goods dependant on where in this case Newegg is located as opposed to where the consumer lives.... not sure on that one.



In Nevada the sales tax is 7.75%, But I dont pay any tax's on online purchase's.


----------



## Bo_Fox (Sep 1, 2009)

Hmm, with anywhere between 60-90% performance increase over a 4890 (which is roughly equivalent to a GTX 275), and maybe 40-75% over a GTX 285, it should reduce the GTX 285's value to around $250 if the 5870 is to be sold at $300.  

Let's see..  time will tell.  I just hope it will be available this month and not in October.


----------



## btarunr (Sep 1, 2009)

I think that rumour said "1.6 times the speed of RV770".


----------



## largon (Sep 1, 2009)

"1.6 times the speed of RV770" makes no sense considering the die size.


----------



## Anath (Sep 1, 2009)

What i would like to see is the 5870 bring the 295 gtx down into the $300 market.


----------



## grunt_408 (Sep 1, 2009)

Dont you just love "Rumours"


----------



## Bo_Fox (Sep 2, 2009)

btarunr said:


> I think that rumour said "1.6 times the speed of RV770".



Remember how modest ATI was when they said that the RV770 would be only 50% faster than the RV670?  It was more like 100% faster..   I think ATI did that to take Nvidia by surprise while NV was announcing GTX 280 with a $599 price tag.  It took most of us by surprise as well!  

With nearly double the amount of transistors, I would still like to think that the 5870 would be roughly 90% faster than the 4870 when it comes to any given demanding game at a high resolution.  Nobody knows exactly how many shaders there will be this time around, right?  One rumor stated that the number of TMU's will only be increased to 48, from 40, but with double as many ROP's (from 16 to 32), it seems that ATI is probably doing it because of a large increase in the pixel fillrate processing power?  Doubling the ROP's takes up a good amount of trannies (and power consumption) so why 32 and not 24 like the 8800GTX?


----------



## largon (Sep 2, 2009)

The heatsink shot that gives away 8 chips pretty much confirms a "conventional" amount of RBEs as memory channels are coupled to RBEs. RV770 is 16bit/1RBE but the ratio is not set in stone as RV740 proves with it's ratio of 8bit/1RBE. So, there's either 16 or 32 RBEs on "RV870". Also, TMUs are linked to SPs with a ratio of 1TMU/20SPs, so 48TMUs would mean mere 960SPs. 

I'd expect something like:
32ROPs 
80TMUs* 
1600SPs* 
1GB 256bit @ ~DDR-5000

*or more, given the _huge_ die size which is *equivalent to bloody ~450mm² of 55nm silicon*


----------



## btarunr (Sep 2, 2009)

There's a tiny bit of skepticism in me about Cypress being built on 40 nm. Given what foundries have been through with 40 nm, I'm finding such huge 40 nm dies (in decent quantities) within Q4 2009 a little too good to be true. It's just me.


----------



## largon (Sep 2, 2009)

"RV870" at 300-350mm² is not huge as it is, not a problem for yields. But it's huge compared to a hypothetical RV770 @ 40nm.


----------



## vagxtr (Sep 2, 2009)

PCpraiser100 said:


> Wow, AMD is falling back into the trap that Nvidia has set up AGAIN. This happened when the HD 3000 series came up, and now, Nvidia is simply going to strike back using retaliation as their advantage over knowing the weaknesses of this video card. This reminds me of chess too much.



omg whata fluckin gamer jargon. retaliate- strike back. come on HD5870 will be to pricyafter theyleaked ot below 250USD price on speculations and considering HD3870/HD4870 doesnt brought any pricier materilas like HD4870 did with fancy GDDR5. All they can make the price up is fluckin dx10.1 and now dx11 that will see first games in 6-9 month time after this paper Evergreen launch and with card priced hopefully drop when nvidia release their parts not fluckingly rebranded GT200b under some GTS350 name lik they use to do in the last three years with their OBSOLETE parts.


----------



## vagxtr (Sep 2, 2009)

HalfAHertz said:


> The way I see it, if they keep to the same form factor of the die, moving from 55nm to 40 nm means 1,375 times more transistors( 55/40)
> So if we take the 800SPs of the rv770 and multiply it with 1,375, we end up at 1100, which is not dividable by 80, Thus rounding the final number to 1120 or going for a bit bigger die and ending up at 1200SPs.



You forgot to square it. 55nm->40nm process is nearly 200% or +100% in american weights



HalfAHertz said:


> Not sure if nm scales work like that tho



LOL how old is a man, in mans years, born on 29th February if he celebrated 16th birthday last year?


----------



## erocker (Sep 2, 2009)

Aggressive pricing?

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx

HD 5850: $279-299
HD 5870: $379-399
HD 5870X2: $599

Not cheap, but perhaps this is an indicator of performance.


----------



## pantherx12 (Sep 2, 2009)

Will still wait for the 10th, but if those are the prices I may have to get a HD5850, or maybe a HD4850 1gb ( seen one for 79 pounds)


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## MoonPig (Sep 2, 2009)

If those are the prices... i don't think many people will get more than one 5850...

I'd rather just buy a 4870x2 or similar...



erocker said:


> Aggressive pricing?
> 
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx
> 
> ...


----------



## erocker (Sep 2, 2009)

Meh, wait for Nvidia to release DX11 cards and watch everything drop a hundred bucks.


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## dir_d (Sep 2, 2009)

erocker said:


> Meh, wait for Nvidia to release DX11 cards and watch everything drop a hundred bucks.



Looks like ATI is trying to do what Nvidia did to the endusers last year by making the prices expensive then waiting for the other camp to drive thier prices down.


----------



## erocker (Sep 2, 2009)

dir_d said:


> Looks like ATI is trying to do what Nvidia did to the endusers last year by making the prices expensive then waiting for the other camp to drive thier prices down.



48xx series came out before the GTX 2XX series. ATi is doing what they did last year but with a $79-99 dollar increase.


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## dir_d (Sep 2, 2009)

erocker said:


> 48xx series came out before the GTX 2XX series. ATi is doing what they did last year but with a $79-99 dollar increase.



I dont like the increase, It puts people like me in a sticky situation...4890 or 58XX? It seems that ATI will make alot of money this time around due to the die shrink and the bump in price


----------



## Bo_Fox (Sep 3, 2009)

largon said:


> The heatsink shot that gives away 8 chips pretty much confirms a "conventional" amount of RBEs as memory channels are coupled to RBEs. RV770 is 16bit/1RBE but the ratio is not set in stone as RV740 proves with it's ratio of 8bit/1RBE. So, there's either 16 or 32 RBEs on "RV870". Also, TMUs are linked to SPs with a ratio of 1TMU/20SPs, so 48TMUs would mean mere 960SPs.
> 
> I'd expect something like:
> 32ROPs
> ...



Ahh, thanks for reminding me about the 1-20 ratio (16 TMU's/320 shaders for HD 2900XT/3870 and 40 TMU's/800 shaders for 48x0).  Since AMD/ATI (DAAMIT) hinted that the general architecture would remain intact since the R600 days, I would agree that the TMU-shaders ratio would remain the same, and makes sense given the increasing requirement for texture processing power.  Heck, the GT200 cards already have 80 TMU's (which is probably the reason why they rule in games that use older architectures like the new Wolfenstein--check out their new review over at [H]).



largon said:


> "RV870" at 300-350mm² is not huge as it is, not a problem for yields. But it's huge compared to a hypothetical RV770 @ 40nm.



True..  300-350mm^2 aint too bad at all.  RV740 (4770) yields have improved so much in the recent months that I think TMSC is definitely ready to do it.  As Theo Valich just said, " According to the sources at hand, TSMC significantly improved the yield from the first batch of chips and that should significantly help the margins on these multi-billion parts."


----------



## Bo_Fox (Sep 3, 2009)

erocker said:


> Aggressive pricing?
> 
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx
> 
> ...



Ohh man, I was planning on buying a 5870 this month for $299 (if it's available) but at $399, I guess I'll just wait..



erocker said:


> Meh, wait for Nvidia to release DX11 cards and watch everything drop a hundred bucks.



Yep, exactly!  However, if I were ATI, I would do the same thing to try to establish leadership in the eyes of the gamer's market once again.  Given that there are strong indications that the 5870 would be nearly twice as fast as the 4870 given the sheer increase in trannies, it should be a good amount faster than the $330 GTX 285 cards today.  Add in DX11 features and a lack of competition for a couple months.. it makes sense for ATI to do this.

At least it's not as bad as the X1900XTX days.  It retailed for $599 for a few months, and buying 2 for Crossfire meant $1200.

A quick history of cards and the RELEASE prices:

Geforce 2 GTS:  $300
Geforce 2 Ultra:  $500 (25% perf. increase, lack of competition since Geforce1---first single $500 GPU ever, for the leet only!)
Geforce 3:  $350  (small perf. increase, DX8.0 features, zero competition)
Geforce 3 Ti500:  $350 (marginal perf. increase, competition with Radeon 8500)
Radeon 8500:  $300  (buggy drivers, slightly faster than the above when it's not buggy)
Geforce 4 Ti4600:  $400 (50% perf. increase, DX8.1 features, 0 competition for a few months)
Radeon 9700 Pro:  $450 (100% faster than the above, DX9.0b, 0 competition until the "virtual" 5800 Ultra)
Geforce 5800 Ultra:  $500 (scarce quantities, therefore high demand, only DX9.0a)
Radeon 9800 Pro, Geforce 5900 Ultra:  $400 (20% faster than the above)
Radeon 9800 XT, Geforce 5950 Ultra:  $450 (15% faster than the above, 256MB RAM)
Radeon X800 XT, Geforce 6800 Ultra:  $500 (released at same time summer 2004, 100% faster than the above, 6800Ultra had DX9.0c but was 10% slower than X800XT as most games didnt use SM3.0/HDR for a couple years)
Radeon X850XT:  $500 (released a few months later, marginally faster.. PCI-E with SLI/Crossfire support was rolled-out, both 6800Ultra and X850XT remained at $450-$500 until summer 2005 with crazy demand during the Doom3 days)
Geforce 7800 GTX:  $500 (out in summer 2005, 0 competition for 6 months, 100% faster than 6800Ultra)
Geforce 7800 GTX-512:  $650 (scarce, super-fast-- 30% faster than the above)
Radeon X1800XT:  $450 (finally out in Nov. 2005, a few weeks later and 20% slower than the above)
Radeon X1900XTX:  $600 (Jan. 2006, 20% faster than 7800GTX-512, 0 competition for 4 months)
Geforce 7900GTX:  $500 (April 2006, 10-15% slower than Radeon X1900XTX overall--much slower in newer shader-heavy games)
Geforce 7950GX2:  $600 (July 2006, Nvidia's first dual-GPU card for retail (equivalent to two 7950GT chips)
Radeon X1950XTX:  $450 (Sept 2006, 5% faster than X1900XTX due to GDDR4, hence the lower prices over time as the supply outstripped demand with great 90nm yields while many didnt like the noisy X1900XTX fan)
Geforce 8800GTX:  $600 (Nov. 2006, DX10, virtually 0 competition for 16 months)
Geforce 8800Ultra:  $650 (May 2007, somewhat scarce at first, 10% faster)
Radeon HD 2900XT:  $450 (June 2007, 30% slower than 8800GTX overall)
Radeon HD 3870:  $250 (Dec 2007, DX10.1 which was hardly used, still 30% slower than 8800GTX and also slower than pre-emptive $300 8800GT released in Nov)
Radeon HD 3870X2:  $450 (Feb 2008, two 3870 chips, 100Mhz faster but with slower memory)
Geforce 9800GX2:  $550 (Mar 2008, roughly equal to 2 8800GTS-512 chips, 30% faster than 3870X2)
Radeon HD 4870:  $300 (June 2008, 50% faster than 8800 Ultra, 100% faster than 3870)
Geforce GTX 280:  planned $550, paper-launch at the same time, 2 weeks later than HD4870 actual release, price reduced to $450 at first availability with $100 rebates..  hardly any faster than 4870 in a number of popular new games at the time, maybe 15% overall which did not impress much after the promises NV made)

You can easily figure which ones are the new generation cards by looking at the model numbers.. 

Was that a fun lesson of history??  

At least the 5870 (which looks to be nearly twice as fast as the 4870) will not be in the $500+ range like many of the previous top-end cards.  As the 4870X2 cards have been selling for around $400 nowadays, the 5870 which should be just as fast (and faster whenever Crossfire doesnt scale perfectly well), would do nicely for ATI at a similar price until there's some competition from NV.

It looks like the GT300 will be more of a leap from the GT200 than the GT200 was from the G80.  There have been several indications that there will be some massive architectural changes along with a huge, gigantic increase in performance.  However, I wouldn't hold my breath this year for GT300 cards.  At over 500mm^2 on 40nm, the first spin of GT300 is most likely to not make it.  A delay of at least 3-6 months is expected.  If the first spin makes it (which is unlikely), we'd be seeing it in December at the earliest.  March-July is more likely.  It would probably be at least 40% faster than the 5870, so Nvidia would still price it at around $450-500 unless ATI pulls something out of the hat before then.

EDIT:  Added dual-GPU cards to the above list.
   It is big "thanks" to the popularity of dual-GPU cards that we do not really have to worry about seeing $500+ single-GPU cards.  Ever since the release of 7950GX2 cards, we have not yet seen a single-GPU card for over $500 (except for 8800GTX/Ultra which was so far ahead of others at the time).


----------



## kylew (Sep 3, 2009)

erocker said:


> Aggressive pricing?
> 
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx
> 
> ...



That news article is BS. Pure and simple.

Why would ATi price the 5850 to be the same cost as a 5870X2 in terms of crossfire?

Why would they price the 5870 to be close to $200 more expensive than a 5870X2 in terms of crossfire?

ATi price their cards so that people look at crossfire as a viable solution.

A higher RRP doesn't actually equate to more profit. The higher the RRP the less cards they sell over all.

They're not going to price the 5800s in that way at all, they then won't have anything at the $200 price point.

They make far more profit at the $200 price point than they do at the $300 price point, especially in terms of volume.

ATi has a pricing scheme in place that it's stuck to for some time now. They've made announcements that this is their structure.

They don't want to release cards upwards of $550, so where does that leave the rest of the cards?

The most logical conclusion is that $550 is reserved for their X2 cards, so around about half of that will be their 'half an X2' card.

The numbers speak for themselves. We already know they like the price points of $199 and $299 for their mainstream highend.

To bring any other numbers in to the equation is 100% speculation with no substance to it what so ever.

A massive point that a lot of people aren't able to grasp is that the price you or I pay for a card is irrelevant to how well they will do, as we're enthusiasts and more likely to spend more.

What matters is the price points they sell them at, not how much they sell them for.

They completely understand the market that they're aiming for.

They've chose these numbers for this very reason.

R&D costs are sunk, they're a cost that's not going to be 'recouped' in a sense.

Once R&D is done the money is spent, what the focus then leads to is making sure the cards cost as little as possible to manufacture while selling a load of them.

That's the only way they recover R&D costs as well as making a profit.


----------



## Bo_Fox (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey Kylew, perhaps they do plan on reducing the price by the time the 5870X2 is released, which should arrive a couple of months after the 5870.  

I spent $599 on an X1900XTX the day it was released.  It remained at that price 6 months after launch (at least at CompUSA).  The trading/selling price was still roughly $500 on ebay and on the forums, but then declined rapidly over the summer to $350 perhaps due to the oversupply thanks to a well-refined 90nm process and the release of 7950GX2 cards.  Anyways, the point is that ATI (AMD) should be smart enough to price their chips according to the demand and the supply available.  At first, the supply will be low, and the demand high, especially for a 5870 card with nearly twice as many trannies as a 4890 (which should be faster than a 4870X2 overall especially since it does not rely on Crossfire).  Let's just say that the price range of $379-399 for a 5870 is a good business move by AMD, at least until the 5870X2 or GT300 is released.  If it's really true, I would definitely wager with 10:1 odds on the $379 side instead of the $399 side.  

Countdown:  7 days left before we should be seeing anything formally announced by AMD, right?


----------



## A Cheese Danish (Sep 3, 2009)

Bo_Fox said:


> Countdown:  7 days left before we should be seeing anything formally announced by AMD, right?



From what I recall, yeah that seems about right.
I really hope ATi doesn't go too over the edge on the prices on these cards.
But I guess all we have are guess' and rumors until AMD officially releases the price list.


----------



## newconroer (Sep 3, 2009)

tigger said:


> It'll be £299 in the rip off uk.




Erm if it's "299" in both regions what does it matter?

You pay a couple of GBP for milk, and you pay a couple USD for milk.


Now if it's £399, and then $299 respectively, there's a problem.


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## wahdangun (Sep 3, 2009)

wtf, why it's take so long for them to just release the card, they already show us the card and showing the demo, but why they don't release the card faster, and make NVDIA can't compete a whole year


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## Achilles1600 (Sep 3, 2009)

i think the ATi radeon 5000 series cards will be better then the 4000 series cards why would you want a 4870x2 when you could have a 5850 0r 5870 witch when new drivers come out for ATi catalyst will only see an increas in the 5000 series card's im getting one or mayby just wait for the GT 300 series card's from nvidia thank you.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 3, 2009)

wahdangun said:


> wtf, why it's take so long for them to just release the card, they already show us the card and showing the demo, but why they don't release the card faster, and make NVDIA can't compete a whole year




I thought GT300 was expected in Q1 2010?


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## jaydeejohn (Sep 3, 2009)

According to sampsa kurri, itll be 299$ US






http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1329655&postcount=2207
Also, it takes time to make new drivers, and actually have enough cards to cover whatever brackets theyre releasing into, the chips, and then the partners, and then shipping them out in sufficient numbers


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## Tatty_One (Sep 3, 2009)

Apparently a Dutch Etailer had a HD5870 x2 listed for pre-order last week before it was very swiftly erased, it was priced at 670 Euro's which is probably considerably more than the thing will actually cost, well I hope it is


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 3, 2009)

erocker said:


> Aggressive pricing?
> 
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx
> 
> ...



What did i say,£184+uk vat for a 5870 in the uk my arse.

More like-
HD 5850: £230
HD 5870: £270+
HD 5870X2: £extortinate.

Were are you kylew


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## pantherx12 (Sep 3, 2009)

230 is how much the HD4870 cost at launch here.

I imagine it will be around the same... I'm hoping these are not the prices ....

Will pick up a HD48 card and a nicer monitor if they're to expensive.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 3, 2009)

I keep saying in the rip off of blighty the prices will be higher that we hope/expect,but i keep getting told i'm wrong.I'm just waiting till i can woot and say i told you so.IF i am wrong then i will glady admit it,but i know over here the prices will be hiked by retailers who know they can charge more,and watch us cry as we hand over the extortionate amount for them.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 3, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> 230 is how much the HD4870 cost at launch here.
> 
> I imagine it will be around the same... I'm hoping these are not the prices ....
> 
> Will pick up a HD48 card and a nicer monitor if they're to expensive.



Everything I have just read (googled US HD4870 launch price) seems to indicate the 4870 launched at $299..... ohhhh and I too am still saying that if the performance increase of the 5870 is 50%+ over the HD4890 then it WILL launch for more than $299   anyways, we will all be put out of our misery one way or another in a week, then we will see who is/was right.


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## pantherx12 (Sep 3, 2009)

I was talking to tigger, 230 pounds : ]


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## erocker (Sep 3, 2009)

Well.. now according to PowerColor 5870's _are_ going to be $299. Good ol' BSN.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 3, 2009)

Anyone fancy a little wager on the uk prices?


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## kylew (Sep 3, 2009)

tigger said:


> What did i say,£184+uk vat for a 5870 in the uk my arse.
> 
> More like-
> HD 5850: £230
> ...



Oh yeah, a BS article that 'proves' you were 'right'.

It's still BS, plus you weren't saying that any way, you were saying $299 would be £299 in 'rip off Britain'... 

Have you not seen the power color leak?

Guess what happened when the 4800s were release? The 4850 was $199 and the 4870 was $299.

Guess what I bought my 4850 for? £120, that's US price PLUS VAT.

Seriously Tigger, I don't understand your intentions, you even proved yourself wrong by linking me to a GTX295 price as 'evidence' that we get ripped off only to be proven wrong.


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## RoutedScripter (Sep 3, 2009)

I will not buy HD 5870 if it's 399 or 379 (that's basically the same what are you guys talking about)


If the standard HD 5870 is 299 then I will buy it , of course in euros , that means 240E price range and that's the standard one I am giving for.  379 or 399 , that's like 350E range , wtf? What even X2 , over 400 , That would not be ATI anymore then, hyping the price.


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## erocker (Sep 3, 2009)

kylew said:


> Oh yeah, a BS article that 'proves' you were 'right'.
> 
> It's still BS, plus you weren't saying that any way, you were saying $299 would be £299 in 'rip off Britain'...
> 
> ...



Easy now. lol Yeah, it looks like that BSN article was bull. Thank goodness. I have no doubts though, that retailers will be selling them over the suggested $299. initially.


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## kylew (Sep 3, 2009)

erocker said:


> Easy now. lol Yeah, it looks like that BSN article was bull. Thank goodness. I have no doubts though, that retailers will be selling them over the suggested $299. initially.



I don't doubt that some retailers will do, though a lot don't price gouge and if I'm buying one on release, I'll buy from the retailers that aren't gouging.


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## RoutedScripter (Sep 3, 2009)

erocker said:


> Easy now. lol Yeah, it looks like that BSN article was bull. Thank goodness. I have no doubts though, that retailers will be selling them over the suggested $299. initially.



That's true , I in central europe have the $299 price range at 199E but all the other costs make retail at 240E (give it or take) But that's normal , and that's the price I am willing to pay gladly as always.  

Some people talking ATI making 399 price range that is really BS , I would never buy that you think Im stupid , rather wait , IF REALLY the cost goes to 299 after X2 launch but that's months to  month to wait , either way , don't need to buy at release at all.

Well my brother plans to buy  a new custom highend PC(1100E price range) this december year ready for Win 7 and Modern Warfare 2 , looks like 2-3 month after reference X2 will come , but im not sure into getting X2 for him , price defiantely over $399 range , if that's true that has been reported for november X2 release maybe? That would be good to see hows reference prices are doing , but as you see HD 4870 stayed at 199E or $299 , only those importer costs went down about 20-40E throughout the time.  But All in All , the best time to buy a PC is december, as i mentioned , waiting ,  a great overview and lower prices plus windows 7 hotfixes and graphics drivers improved rather than at release time.


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 3, 2009)

Look kylew,i am a pessimist,we do get ripped off on hardware prices in the uk.Lets just wait and see the uk release prices eh,then we'll see whos right.As i have said over and over,if i am wrong i will admit i was wrong,but until they come out in the uk we are all speculating.So what if the 48xx were the us prices plus whatever.You dont know for sure the 58xx will follow suite.You are basing your opinion on the 48xx release prices,that does NOT mean the same is going to happen with the 58xx.You think i am wrong so just stfu telling me over and over i am wrong until you know for sure that i am.


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## kylew (Sep 3, 2009)

tigger said:


> Look kylew,i am a pessimist,we do get ripped off on hardware prices in the uk.Lets just wait and see the uk release prices eh,then we'll see whos right.As i have said over and over,if i am wrong i will admit i was wrong,but until they come out in the uk we are all speculating.So what if the 48xx were the us prices plus whatever.You dont know for sure the 58xx will follow suite.You are basing your opinion on the 48xx release prices,that does NOT mean the same is going to happen with the 58xx.You think i am wrong so just stfu telling me over and over i am wrong until you know for sure that i am.



'STFU' 

Seriously, grow up, for some one who apparently doesn't care if they're wrong, you really do care.

I've already proven you wrong on more than one occasion. You tried to catch me out with that GTX295, that proved you wrong too.

Maybe you want to feel hard done by, but the 'rip-off Britain' is largely a myth that people peddle on and on about.

We do get ripped off in some circumstances, but it's clear when we aren't.

What you're stating is something that hasn't happened, so for me to use previous releases as evidence gives my claims a lot more weight than your claims.


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## erocker (Sep 3, 2009)

Stop now. Post in a polite, respectful manner or don't post at all. Consider this an "official" warning for all.


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## Achilles1600 (Sep 3, 2009)

i think nvidia siad that they are going to announce the GT300 in october.


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## JATownes (Sep 3, 2009)

Achilles1600 said:


> i think nvidia siad that they are going to announce the GT300 in october.



I think this will probably be a paper launch in October...Unfortunately, I do not expect to see GT300 cards at retailers until December/January...but I could be wrong...


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## Deleted member 24505 (Sep 4, 2009)

Sorry erocker,it seems me and kylew have conflicting opinions.I wont post in this thread anymore.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 4, 2009)

JATownes said:


> I think this will probably be a paper launch in October...Unfortunately, I do not expect to see GT300 cards at retailers until December/January...but I could be wrong...



Your right, Q1 2010 was always going to be the official release to retail date I think.


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## Bo_Fox (Sep 4, 2009)

tigger said:


> Sorry erocker,it seems me and kylew have conflicting opinions.I wont post in this thread anymore.



Nah, I agree with you about the UK prices..  everytime I visit a U.K. website, the prices seem ridiculous!!!        You could just block him and not let him stop you from posting in this thread.    

Well, I certainly do hope that Powercolor is right about the $299 price..  but then again, it could be for a 5850 and not a 5890!  Heh heh..


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## kylew (Sep 6, 2009)

Bo_Fox said:


> Nah, I agree with you about the UK prices..  everytime I visit a U.K. website, the prices seem ridiculous!!!        You could just block him and not let him stop you from posting in this thread.
> 
> Well, I certainly do hope that Powercolor is right about the $299 price..  but then again, it could be for a 5850 and not a 5890!  Heh heh..



It's not illegal to disagree you know...

The reason I was disagreeing though is that there's plenty of evidence to suggest what they're going to be priced at.

To suggest blocking some one who disagrees with you though? That's mental...


Also, there won't be a 5870 at release, it'll be a 5850 and 5870 according to the rumours.


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## HalfAHertz (Sep 7, 2009)

It appears the HD5xxx are going to be a it of a rip-off  compared to HD4xxx
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx

We'll have to wait and see a few more days


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## jamesrt2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

Obvious they have the whole "we want somethign bigger and better" market for a good few months, nvidia will be paper launching in september also to try take the thunder away...

its just common sense and we have sene it many times, the moment nvidia then release there cards (they wont have x2 on launch either) ati will have massive price cut, intoduce the X" either a few days before or same day and like last time it seems will be able to undercut (we shall see the performance soon though)

I dont see why everyones worrying just wait till jan 


(liking the rumours about 30~w idle thats been spreading I think thats a bit over exagurated but yeah, I think it's a big hint to say that they have worked out the gddr5 stuff)


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## pantherx12 (Sep 7, 2009)

HalfAHertz said:


> It appears the HD5xxx are going to be a it of a rip-off  compared to HD4xxx
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx
> 
> We'll have to wait and see a few more days



Thanks to Powercolor leaking the price that's already been debunked : ]


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## Bo_Fox (Sep 8, 2009)

kylew said:


> It's not illegal to disagree you know...
> 
> The reason I was disagreeing though is that there's plenty of evidence to suggest what they're going to be priced at.
> 
> ...



All right, sorry about rubbing you the wrong way, bud.  Just asking--are there UK websites that sell for as cheap as US sites like Newegg.com?  

And you mean 5870X2, right?



HalfAHertz said:


> It appears the HD5xxx are going to be a it of a rip-off  compared to HD4xxx
> http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/9/2/ati-radeon-58502c-58702c-5870x2-pricing-revealed.aspx
> 
> We'll have to wait and see a few more days



The article that you linked to does not indicate anything about the 58xx being a rip-off.  I just read it again...   The rumors are that it will have around 2x the trannies, shaders, TMU's, ROP's, etc.. plus DX11 features.  



jamesrt2004 said:


> (liking the rumours about 30~w idle thats been spreading I think thats a bit over exagurated but yeah, I think it's a big hint to say that they have worked out the gddr5 stuff)



Could be..   but perhaps they are just talking about the lower-end Cypress parts (like the 4770, but with DX11 features).


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## Scrizz (Sep 8, 2009)

HD 5850 ftw!


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## largon (Sep 8, 2009)

Bo_Fox said:


> jamesrt2004 said:
> 
> 
> > (liking the rumours about 30~w idle thats been spreading I think thats a bit over exagurated but yeah, I think it's a big hint to say that they have worked out the gddr5 stuff)
> ...


Considering it doesn't take anything more than underclocking a HD4890 to c200 and m300 to get the card to idle at ~30W then it shouldn't be a problem at all with the next gen parts...


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## a_ump (Sep 8, 2009)

yea. well 2 more days . i'm hoping that the paper launch and maybe reviews are thrown up at 12:01 AM tomorro nite. Just gotta know if i sold my Hd 4870 for a good reason. What i'd like to see is the HD 5850 outperforming the GTX 285 by 10-20% and the HD 5870 outperform the GTX 285 by 20-50%. but who knows could be wishful thinkin or could be spot on.


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## erocker (Sep 8, 2009)

pantherx12 said:


> Thanks to Powercolor leaking the price that's already been debunked : ]



Heh, unless Powercolors price was for the 5850.


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## TheQuestian (Sep 14, 2009)

ArmoredCavalry said:


> Thank you sir.


+1

Yeah, I don't get why the price point is so hard to understand. More advanced tech + similar or lower price = pressure. Isn't pressure the whole point in a competitive market? 

And based on the few leaked benchmarks and the early response from reviewers I have seen, there's reason to believe that the 5870 will routinely outperform a GTX 295 with room to spare. The GTX 285 will not even be in the rear view.

For right now, Red Team: +1


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## TheQuestian (Sep 14, 2009)

Heh, that said, I am hoping the GTX 285 drops below $200 so I can snag one for my new build!


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## Tatty_One (Sep 15, 2009)

TheQuestian said:


> +1
> 
> Yeah, I don't get why the price point is so hard to understand. More advanced tech + similar or lower price = pressure. Isn't pressure the whole point in a competitive market?
> 
> ...



I agree, however, the rumoured $299 price tag seems to be for the 5850, with $400+ for the 5870..... that said, if it does bring GTX295 beating performance then thats damn good value (however I remain skeptical about it being considerably faster than the 295).


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## Binge (Sep 15, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> I agree, however, the rumoured $299 price tag seems to be for the 5850, with $400+ for the 5870..... that said, if it does bring GTX295 beating performance then thats damn good value (however I remain skeptical about it being considerably faster than the 295).



It seems to be faster in every game that nV hasn't made SLI profiles.  In all of those games the FPS are already well over 60 even for a 4870.  Just my .02


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## Melvis (Sep 15, 2009)

tigger said:


> It'll be £299 in the rip off uk.



Yea that sounds about right, it be priced around $500 here in the land down under, i so hope im wrong tho.


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## TheQuestian (Sep 15, 2009)

Tatty_One said:


> I agree, however, the rumoured $299 price tag seems to be for the 5850, with $400+ for the 5870..... that said, if it does bring GTX295 beating performance then thats damn good value (however I remain skeptical about it being considerably faster than the 295).



Well, given ATI's (and NVIDIA's) track record for accurately representing the performance of their hardware, I don't understand the hesitation. 

Yeah, a healthy dose of "just-hold-on-a-second" is always safe in the face of a major product launch. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if the 5870 and 5850 perform well enough to force prices down on all of NVIDIA's lineup, to include the GTX 295.


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## Tatty_One (Sep 22, 2009)

Seems like the HD5870 is gonna be $399 not $299 that many thought, $299 for the HD5850 

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10011217


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