# Thermal Paste



## GoFigureItOut (Jun 16, 2015)

It's about time to apply a new layer of thermal paste. I wondering which thermal paste offers better cooling potential, Arctic Silver 5 or Antec Nano Diamond?

Also, looking on BestBuy website on Thermal Paste, there's seem to be a whole lot more than I know about such as: Arctic Sliver High-density polysynthetic silver ($15.75), Innovation Cooling IC Diamond ($6.39), Insignia Thermal compound ($10.99), and Cooler Master ($5.99); so do it really matter which kind to use? I know using ceramic is always a no-no!


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## Ebo (Jun 16, 2015)

It dosent really matter, the difference between the best compounds is only 1-3 degrees cencius. 

Ive used IC Diamond for a number of years and its a good compound. Now I use Prolimatech PK-3 thats just a bit better.


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## Jetster (Jun 16, 2015)

Ceramic paste is fine. Nothing wrong with it. All the pastes you mention are fine. There is 84 threads about this subject. Any name brand is okay

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/search/6624844/?q=Thermal+pastes&o=date


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## GoFigureItOut (Jun 16, 2015)

Jetster said:


> Ceramic paste is fine. Nothing wrong with it. All the pastes you mention are fine. There is 84 threads about this subject. Any name brand is okay
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/search/6624844/?q=Thermal+pastes&o=date



Oops, I didn't realize there were so many threads about TIM. Doesn't Ceramic dries up? I've seen it on older Pentium 4's before


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## Jetster (Jun 16, 2015)

They all do eventually

What is more important is the method and surface conditions


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## R-T-B (Jun 16, 2015)

Jetster said:


> They all do eventually



Arctic Cooling MX-2 lasts a hell of a long time though...  doesn't perform the best or take any number one spots (still pretty darn good though) but I use it for client builds because that stuff lasts a decade if you let it.  My clients also aren't the kind of people who like frequent maintenance visits, sadly.  My wallet would like it if they were.


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## mroofie (Jun 16, 2015)

Jetster said:


> Ceramic paste is fine. Nothing wrong with it. All the pastes you mention are fine. There is *84 threads* about this subject. Any name brand is okay
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/search/6624844/?q=Thermal+pastes&o=date


The Next Week its going to be 168


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 16, 2015)

I recommend the PK-3 or MX-4, Ive used both. MX-4 is the best bang for buck.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 16, 2015)

GoFigureItOut said:


> Oops, I didn't realize there were so many threads about TIM. Doesn't Ceramic dries up? I've seen it on older Pentium 4's before


 
It doesn't matter if it dries up, truly.  As long as you formed a good bond that filled in all the variations in the two surfaces, and the cooler bond isn't broken, you can leave it indefinately.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 16, 2015)

GoFigureItOut said:


> It's about time to apply a new layer of thermal paste


Why?

The only reason to apply a new layer of TIM is if the cured bond with the old TIM has been broken. Otherwise, TIM does not wear out, go bad or stop working and will easily last 10 to 15 years or longer. Even if it dries the solid materials left behind will continue to occupy the space preventing insulating air from getting in there. And pushing insulating air out of the microscopic pits and valleys in the mating surfaces is what TIM is all about.

You actually risk greater damage through mishandling, ESD, improper cleaning and improper application of new TIM than you do by just leaving things alone.

I see rtwjunkie beat me to it, but I will leave what I said about drying out to reiterate it.

You only need to replace TIM if you pull the heatsink for some reason, or if the computer bounced off the floor and the bond broke through "abusive" handling or transport. Note because coolers, especially aftermarket coolers "hang" off a motherboard in tower PCs, it is recommended you remove them when transporting, or if you are moving it yourself, ensure the PC is always laid down on the side so the cooler sits flat on top of the motherboard during transport.

If the bond is broken, then it is critical to thoroughly clean the mating surfaces. And never reuse TIM.


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## peche (Jun 16, 2015)

well, I'm new using arctic cooling mx TIM, now is on my delidded chip on my gaming build temps are awesome,




*Arctic Cooling MX4: * I'm using arctic cooling mx4, 20G tube that I got from a TPU friend, this compound rocks I was waiting to use it, have seen several reviews of it outperforming several brands and models, pretty easy to apply despite its texture, pretty bold one, 




*Arctic Silver 5*, it tends to dry a little bit faster compared to silicone based ones, I have used it for more than 5 years, doing repastes every 1 and a half year or 2, pretty hard to apply ir correctly at least for me, recommended to apply a thin layer on CPU cooler, Tinting the Heatsink or cooler, take a watch: 




http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth/int/vl/intel_app_method_vertical_line_v1.1.pdf

*the thing that I hate about this paste:*

_*Break-In Period by Thermal Compound:*_

*Arctic Silver 5:  *_Break-in period: 200 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.) Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal diode in the hottest part of the CPU core._

*Céramique:  *_Break-in period: 25 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.) Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal  diode in the hottest part of the CPU core._

*Arctic Alumina:  *_Break-in period: 36 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.)  Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal diode in the hottest part of the CPU core._

*Matrix:  *_Break-in period: 300 hours (Break-in period will occur during normal use.) Temps will drop several degrees over the break-in period measured with a thermal  diode in the hottest part of the CPU core_.





Coolermaster Ice Fusion, the cheap alternative to my customers, pretty decent, lasts pretty much despite being silicone one, and also the most important part easy to apply, comes with a applicator blade for easy spread, budgetish source, 40G source, pretty cheap and also lasts pretty much on the flask… 




Jetster said:


> They all do eventually
> 
> What is more important is the method and surface conditions


this ... completely on the point !!
clean old past always, be sure that old paste is gone prior to appply a new layer of fresh paste, arctic clean recommended on well, isopropyl alcohol, both cooler and CPU IHS must be cleaned, 




R-T-B said:


> Arctic Cooling MX-2 lasts a hell of a long time though...  doesn't perform the best or take any number one spots (still pretty darn good though) but I use it for client builds because that stuff lasts a decade if you let it.  My clients also aren't the kind of people who like frequent maintenance visits, sadly.  My wallet would like it if they were.




that’s why I have 3 pastes on my stock for customers, the most used … cheap alternative, coolermaster ice fusion, I have used it on several builds since I got the flask, on all of them still working as the first day!

and also i thing everyone would like to have enthusiasts clients, that come more often for computer check outs!


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 16, 2015)

It is still important to remember that it is the case's responsibility to provide a sufficient supply of cool air flowing through the case. If you really need the extra 3 - 5°C the best TIM provides to keep your system stable or from shutting down, then you really need to look at your case cooling. I am assuming, of course, you don't have a thick layer of heat trapping dust blanketing the interior of your computer, and your ambient (room) temperature isn't 95°F.

As for curing/break-in times, again, if you really need those extra degrees, you should look at case cooling. Note too, especially for those with 200 - 300 hour curing times, you can speed that process up with more frequent heat/cool cycles. Nevertheless, you should still have good temps immediately. It should not be necessary to wait for the curing to complete to achieve acceptable temps. If your temps are too high from the start, you applied it wrong, did not properly secure the heatsink, the fan is not working correctly, or case cooling is insufficient. Or, you have pushed the clock speeds too high for the cooling capacities of the HSF assembly and case.

The gains you achieve through the curing/break-in process should be considered as bonuses and not necessary for safe and stable operation.


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## MrGenius (Jun 16, 2015)

I like this stuff.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 16, 2015)

The shelf life of 1 year in syringe from date of manufacture is bogus. It is like the use by date you find on boxes of salt. Salt is a rock.

If the syringe has been opened, then the unused TIM may dry out. But that just affects its spreadability, not its thermal transfer properties. I have tubes of TIM that are several years old and still work just fine.


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## Easy Rhino (Jun 16, 2015)

Don't buy IC Diamond. The owner is a real dweeb.


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## MrGenius (Jun 16, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> The shelf life of 1 year in syringe from date of manufacture is bogus. It is like the use by date you find on boxes of salt. Salt is a rock.
> 
> If the syringe has been opened, then the unused TIM may dry out. But that just affects its spreadability, not its thermal transfer properties. I have tubes of TIM that are several years old and still work just fine.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right about that. I've have a ~1 year old syringe half full that's still perfectly usable(no noticeable difference in consistency). Just used some last week, still works as good as it ever did. I do keep the cap on it though(duh...who wouldn't?). And I have no idea when the actual D.O.M. was. For all I know it was sitting on their shelf for a couple years before they sent it to me. They just want me to buy a new one every year, so they can keep their pockets lined with my cash. Not gonna happen.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 16, 2015)

Yeah, I have some open tubes I've had for years too. You may have to knead them a bit to mix it up but as long as it spreads smoothly with no hard chunks, you are fine. And yeah, replace the cap tightly when done.


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## peche (Jun 16, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> As for curing/break-in times, again, if you really need those extra degrees, you should look at case cooling. Note too, especially for those with 200 - 300 hour curing times, you can speed that process up with more frequent heat/cool cycles. Nevertheless, you should still have good temps immediately. It should not be necessary to wait for the curing to complete to achieve acceptable temps. If your temps are too high from the start, you applied it wrong, did not properly secure the heatsink, the fan is not working correctly, or case cooling is insufficient. Or, you have pushed the clock speeds too high for the cooling capacities of the HSF assembly and case.
> 
> The gains you achieve through the curing/break-in process should be considered as bonuses and not necessary for safe and stable operation


tell that o arctic silver enterprises...


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 16, 2015)

peche said:


> tell that o arctic silver enterprises...


Yeah, I know. But keep in mind, it is their marketing weenies that write that stuff and marketing weenies, in terms of honesty, are right up there with shysters, insurance companies and politicians!


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## peche (Jun 16, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> Yeah, I know. But keep in mind, it is their marketing weenies that write that stuff and marketing weenies, in terms of honesty, are right up there with shysters, insurance companies and politicians!


with all your deserved respect… I trust more arctic silver statements than yours, why? because I have done several repaste operations with several computers, most of them using the same paste, and I have noticed a difference, also improvement over the old applied paste,


in this specific case, I hate arctic silver 5, but I had to used it for a long time cause it was all I had, done several repastes, different methods, noticing several differences between them … so that’s why my friend I will still replacing my paste despite you claim is not necessary,


Regards,


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 17, 2015)

Well, you can certainly do that but I again say if you need those few degrees difference, then your case cooling is lacking, not your TIM. Either that or the TIM was not applied right in the first place, or the cured bond was broken allowing insulation air in between the mating surfaces.


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## micropage7 (Jun 17, 2015)

i use ultra cheap paste with small grain or small dabs method, so far it works pretty good
so it doesnt too matter as long as the rest of your cooling system is good (like airflow, good contact area, pasting method)


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## R-T-B (Jun 17, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> The shelf life of 1 year in syringe from date of manufacture is bogus. It is like the use by date you find on boxes of salt. Salt is a rock.
> 
> If the syringe has been opened, then the unused TIM may dry out. But that just affects its spreadability, not its thermal transfer properties. I have tubes of TIM that are several years old and still work just fine.



I once opened a tube of Corning brand thermal paste that came with an intel heatsink (yeah, didn't know they made thermal paste either) that was 2 years expired.  Aparently they meant it, as the thermal paste had no liquid left and was pure powder in the tube...

Of course, that stuff should never be used even within the expiration date...


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## GoFigureItOut (Jun 17, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> Why?
> 
> The only reason to apply a new layer of TIM is if the cured bond with the old TIM has been broken. Otherwise, TIM does not wear out, go bad or stop working and will easily last 10 to 15 years or longer. Even if it dries the solid materials left behind will continue to occupy the space preventing insulating air from getting in there. And pushing insulating air out of the microscopic pits and valleys in the mating surfaces is what TIM is all about.
> 
> ...



Temps have been rising quite dramatically! In fact, I cannot use my CPU at it's fullest (3.0ghz). I'm using an out-dated AMD X2 6400+ under the normal load @ 3.0ghz, temps will be around 60c


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## peche (Jun 17, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> Well, you can certainly do that but I again say if you need those few degrees difference, then your case cooling is lacking, not your TIM. Either that or the TIM was not applied right in the first place, or the cured bond was broken allowing insulation air in between the mating surfaces.


false!

how could you explain, a computer that was sat on the same sp0t, the same fan setup on it, also the computer that I use every day, and you said and declare that lack of airflow, c'mon dude, let's be a little more mature, every single crap in this world goes worn out and will need to be replaced, even thermal paste… it gots completely dry sometimes, when this happens anything can break the bond because is mostly dust or powder, even small vibrations on the computer can break that bond or cure,

I'm completely understanding what is made for thermalpaste … and I completely understand that application  method is another extreme important point, but also re-application of fresh layers of paste are necessary, because nothing lasts forever…


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## MrGenius (Jun 17, 2015)

I _guess_ it's debatable. And I do acknowledge your hypothesis. But I, for one, still have to side with B_B on that argument. He takes the words right out of my mouth, as far this issue is concerned. IMO he's _dead on the money_.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 17, 2015)

peche said:
			
		

> let's be a little more mature


More mature? So you have to start tossing personal insults to prove your point??? Who's demonstrating immaturity?



> even small vibrations on the computer can break that bond or cure,


Not if the heat sink fan assembly was properly mounted and clamped in. And "Break the bond" is the key phrase there.

You are suggesting that there are 100s of millions of computers out there that are overheating because normal users, the users of those computers for sure, NEVER change their TIM.



peche said:


> how could you explain, a computer that was sat on the same sp0t, the same fan setup on it, also the computer that I use every day


Come on dude! Are you now claiming that NOTHING else changed? Windows never got updated? Security programs never were updated or changed? No new programs starting at boot didn't change?  Ambient temperatures remained exactly the same? Fan speeds remained exactly the same? PSU voltages remained exactly the same? The CPU itself didn't age and become less efficient over time?

Are you a certified master electronics technician? Have you professionally maintained electronics for decades?

If your TIM turns to dust or powder after a year or two, then your TIM is junk! Or it was applied improperly. Or the open tube was improperly stored. Or the heatsink was not mounted properly. Or you broke the bond through physical abuse - perhaps by twisting the heatsink too hard to see if tight!

*Show us where the manufacturer of your favorite TIM (or any popular TIM) says it needs to be replaced regularly.*

*Show us any white paper, study or professional article that says TIM needs to be periodically replaced.*

I say again, if you NEED the extra few degrees a fresh new layer of TIM provides to keep your system temps down within "normal" operating temps, then your case cooling is inadequate.


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## peche (Jun 17, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> Come on dude! Are you now claiming that NOTHING else changed? Windows never got updated? Security programs never were updated or changed? No new programs starting at boot were added? Ambient temperatures remained exactly the same? Fan speeds remained exactly the same? PSU voltages remained exactly the same? The CPU itself didn't age and become less efficient over time?


really?



Bill_Bright said:


> You are suggesting that there are 100s of millions of computers out there that are overheating because normal users, the users of those computers for sure, NEVER change their TIM.


i have not wrote down the world "overheat" in this post... 



Bill_Bright said:


> Are you a certified master electronics technician? Have you professionally maintained electronics for decades?
> 
> If your TIM turns to dust or powder after a year or two, then your TIM is junk! Or it was applied improperly. Or the open tube was improperly stored. Or the heatsink was not mounted properly. Or you broke the bond through physical abuse - perhaps by twisting the heatsink too hard to see if tight!
> 
> ...


"ok"... 




Bill_Bright said:


> More mature? So you have to start tossing personal insults to prove your point??? Who's demonstrating immaturity?


lay down ... im not insulting...
my replies to this posts end here...


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 17, 2015)

peche said:


> i have not wrote down the world "overheat" in this post...


You are right - my apologies. But you are surely suggesting without regular replacement, the TIM will go bad and become ineffective - even turning to dust or powder.

And I am saying if that were true, then having some ineffective material sitting between the mating surfaces of the CPU and heatsink would interfere with the transfer of heat. And without an efficient transfer of heat, those 100s of millions of CPUs would be overheating - or at least be running hot. And let's not forget, that the vast majority of those 100s of millions of computers are running with OEM coolers too!

And while I've been a strong advocate for sticking with the OEM coolers in recent years (when not extreme overclocking) even I have to admit those OEM coolers must surely be great coolers if capable of keeping their CPUs adequately cooled and stable with ineffective materials sitting in between the mating surfaces, blocking the efficient transfer of heat.


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## peche (Jun 17, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> You are right - my apologies. But you are surely suggesting without regular replacement, the TIM will go bad and become ineffective - even turning to dust or powder.
> 
> And I am saying if that were true, then having some ineffective material sitting between the mating surfaces of the CPU and heatsink would interfere with the transfer of heat. And without an efficient transfer of heat, those 100s of millions of CPUs would be overheating - or at least be running hot. And let's not forget, that the vast majority of those 100s of millions of computers are running with OEM coolers too!
> 
> And while I've been a strong advocate for sticking with the OEM coolers in recent years (when not extreme overclocking) even I have to admit those OEM coolers must surely be great coolers if capable of keeping their CPUs adequately cooled and stable with ineffective materials sitting in between the mating surfaces, blocking the efficient transfer of heat.


no no no no,

I'm telling that I trust TIM repaste,  and fresh applications, also as a computer certified technician and truly hardware lover and enthusiast, also on my own hardware I have noticed that fresh applications may show improvement,

I have 3 cruncher computers, 2 i7's and 1 amd FX,

I have repaste the older i7, tomorrow I will repaste the other i7 that have been running for a year, also it was repasted 2 years ago [actually I did it myself], running the same setup, the same OS and apps without changes, that includes no updates at all,


the temps at this moment with stock cooler and arctic ceramic are pretty high, so I will perform a repaste for lowering them, also if I could I would replace the stock cooler, but is not a personal computer so I have to stick with the given hardware… here are several computers with their stock cooler, being repasted at least every 2 years or when necessary, because sometimes a computer that was working fine… starts to behave pretty weird, got temps increased, so … as I told before fella, I do respect your points, arguments but I do not share them, because all the situations I have face with thermal paste and other hardware… I will stick on my thoughts too, repaste when necessary, because there is nothing in this world that can work flawless despite of getting age during the pass of time, all materials, products and craps in this world gets worn out, degradeted and will need to be replaced,


Also I have  a clue that says that something will work for up to 8 years, without repasting, that means that maybe on 10 years or 9 will ne to be replaced, so it means on an indirect way that.. will worn out,






i know that says "  you do not need to apply it a seocond time as it will last at least for 8 years" but its a controversy that dont say that will lasts forever... or not degrades across the time... that my friend as you said on the past ,, is a merch trick ... there is always a trick ..


http://www.arctic.ac/worldwide_en/mx-4.html

Regards,


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 17, 2015)

peche said:


> but its a controversy that dont say that will lasts forever... or not degrades across the time... that my friend as you said on the past ,, is a merch trick ... there is always a trick ..


That seems pretty nitpicky to me but if that is what you NOW want to base your argument on to feel better, then fine.

"_At least_ 8 years" is not forever. But when it comes to your typical PC, that sure is a pretty long time.

But if being nitpicky, I never said "forever" - that was your word. I said, "_will easily last 10 to 15 years or longer". _And that is based on my own experience _and training_ as a formally trained and certified electronics technician. It was you who said, then attempted to justify as a necessary task, 





peche said:


> doing repastes every 1 and a half year or 2


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## vgm (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm using AS ceramique 2 and can say there's huge difference in temperature than junk TIMs. 


Bill_Bright said:


> That seems pretty nitpicky to me but if that is what you NOW want to base your argument on to feel better, then fine.
> 
> "_At least_ 8 years" is not forever. But when it comes to your typical PC, that sure is a pretty long time.
> 
> But if being nitpicky, I never said "forever" - that was your word. I said, "_will easily last 10 to 15 years or longer". _And that is based on my own experience _and training_ as a formally trained and certified electronics technician. It was you who said, then attempted to justify as a necessary task,


This is true, I recently opened my 7 year old vaio and TIM was still there but little dried up, and applied fresh one which lowered temperatures from 78C to 48C.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 19, 2015)

And replacing the TIM was all you did? You didn't clean the heatsink? You didn't clean the fans and vents of dust into the computer? You didn't dress up your cables for better air flow? A 30°C drop in temps does NOT suggest TIM was the only problem in that system.

Note what the experts at The Heatsink Guide say (my *bold* added), 





> Thermal compound normally does not get hard, it will stay sticky for years. But depending on the solvents used in the making of the compound, it may dry over the years. This is not a reason to worry; it will still do its job when dry, and *there is no reason to replace dried thermal compound*.



I ask again, as I did in a previous thread of the same subject, *IF* it was necessary to regularly replace TIM, don't you think the TIM makers would say so? After all, that would mean more money for them. But they don't say to regularly replace it because they know it is NOT necessary.

For ANYONE here saying otherwise, PLEASE show us a link to a TIM maker's website, a white paper, a professional article, ANY published document to support your argument.

***
As far as unused TIM going bad on the shelf, see Does Arctic Silver Thermal Paste Expire/Go Bad? (my *bold* added). 





> This article explains whether it is safe to use several years old thermal paste / grease.
> 
> I couldn’t find any information online, so I went to Arctic Silver’s limited website. There was also a lack of information there, so I emailed their customer support.
> 
> Arctic Silver’s customer support responded very quickly and reluctantly confirmed that yes, it should be okay to use. I say reluctantly because I’m sure Arctic Silver does not want to be blamed for any problems caused. The “canned response” as they put it – was to recommend 12 months, refrigerated, for strict military specifications. However he went on to say that *as long as the material was fully mixed, it would be fine*.



If you are the IT Tech in a large company with 100s of computers, no way are you going to go around every couple years to replace the TIM. Because there's just no need to.


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## peche (Jun 19, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> And replacing the TIM was all you did? You didn't clean the heatsink? You didn't clean the fans and vents of dust into the computer? You didn't dress up your cables for better air flow? A 30°C drop in temps does NOT suggest TIM was the only problem in that system.


in 99% of cases, people clean heat sink because is not correct to apply fresh paste over the old one, everybody knows that…





Bill_Bright said:


> If you are the IT Tech in a large company with 100s of computers, no way are you going to go around every couple years to replace the TIM. Because there's just no need to.


well, I have done it, a year ago, 76 computers, including old pentium models [775 socket,] several Core i processors, Xeon from balde servers,  and yes I did the complete job, clean all inside, fans, cables etc,

next time what should i do? call you to support me maybe?
could be nice, we can run benchs, tests and everything you will need for taking the results, replacing old TIM always brings excellent Results, outperforms old paste.. for sure...


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## R-T-B (Jun 19, 2015)

> how could you explain, a computer that was sat on the same sp0t, the same fan setup on it, also the computer that I use every day, and you said and declare that lack of airflow,



Depends on how much you smoke...

(points to the "filthy rotten PC helpdesk" thread)

I kid man, but seriously...  for some people it is a factor.


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## peche (Jun 19, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> Depends on how much you smoke...
> 
> (points to the "filthy rotten PC helpdesk" thread)
> 
> I kid man, but seriously...  for some people it is a factor.


Office computer, unfortunately not smoking there...and thanks god its pretty clean, not so much dust arround it, 

i completely understand your point, 

Regards,


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## vgm (Jun 20, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> And replacing the TIM was all you did? You didn't clean the heatsink? You didn't clean the fans and vents of dust into the computer? You didn't dress up your cables for better air flow? A 30°C drop in temps does NOT suggest TIM was the only problem in that system.
> 
> Note what the experts at The Heatsink Guide say (my *bold* added),
> 
> ...


While replacing TIM, you'll obviously clean HSFs and dress up cables for better air flow.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 20, 2015)

peche said:


> in 99% of cases, people clean heat sink because is not correct to apply fresh paste over the old one, everybody knows that…


Come on! You know I meant dust between the fins and not the old TIM. Don't be silly! Of course everyone (or hopefully everyone) knows you don't apply new TIM over old.

All you could come up with anything official was "at least 8 years".

*I ask again - show us where any TIM maker, CPU maker, aftermarket cooler maker, white paper, professional article, electronics journal, says to regularly replace TIM!*


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## peche (Jun 20, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> *I ask again - show us where any TIM maker, CPU maker, aftermarket cooler maker, white paper, professional article, electronics journal, says to regularly replace TIM!*





peche said:


> next time what should i do? call you to support me maybe?
> could be nice, we can run benchs, tests and everything you will need for taking the results, replacing old TIM always brings excellent Results, outperforms old paste.. for sure...


already said!
and wont argue any more with you ... have a nice weekend!


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 20, 2015)

I have no intention of arguing either. But it is not my fault there is no supporting documentation, either in the world or electronics, computer articles, TIM makers, CPU makers, or HSF makers to support your position. And I am sorry you could not find anything to support your position either. But again, that is not my fault.

But frankly, this idea that TIM needs to replaced regularly just because of age is another, but popular old wives tale. It is similar to many posters claiming Windows needs to be reinstalled regularly. Or you have to remove the CMOS battery and then hold the power button in 30 seconds to drain residual power before the CMOS is reset. None are true.

For the record, my point of contention is the claim TIM must be replaced just because of age.

Is it necessary to replace the TIM sometimes? Sure! But not just because it has been there for x number of years. Only if the heatsink bond was broken. Or, and this is common, too much TIM was applied in the first place. Sadly that mistake is also common among many newbies and hobbyist/amateurs (not formally trained electronics/computer techs) - they use too much TIM, thinking more is better. The best heat transfer occurs between direct metal-to-metal contact, yet many feel they need gobs of TIM in between. That is actually counterproductive to the heat transfer process and can lead to the need of replacement.


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## rtwjunkie (Jun 21, 2015)

vgm said:


> I'm using AS ceramique 2 and can say there's huge difference in temperature than junk TIMs.
> 
> This is true, I recently opened my 7 year old vaio and TIM was still there but little dried up, and applied fresh one which lowered temperatures from 78C to 48C.



What this tells me is the TIM and the CPU cooler were incorrectly applied and installed.   nothing else supports that huge temperature drop


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## R-T-B (Jun 21, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> What this tells me is the TIM and the CPU cooler were incorrectly applied and installed.   nothing else supports that huge temperature drop



Or the paste they used was low longevity garbage.  I've seen both situations happen on some laptop brands.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 21, 2015)

rtwjunkie said:


> What this tells me is the TIM and the CPU cooler were incorrectly applied and installed. nothing else supports that huge temperature drop


I agree. Even no TIM generally offers better cooling as at least then, there is substantial metal to metal contact.



R-T-B said:


> Or the paste they used was low longevity garbage. I've seen both situations happen on some laptop brands.


Oh? What brands? I find that odd because I've worked on many notebooks and most came with OEM coolers supplied by the CPU makers. And those OEM coolers had OEM TIM pads. Others came with 3rd party coolers but even they came with TIM pads. And while those TIM pads (at least those of several years ago) were some pretty poor stuff compared to modern TIM, most notebooks never have their coolers pulled and the TIM still worked.

Neither Intel or AMD want their CPUs to overheat so while the pads may not offer the best cooling, I've not seen either CPU maker use "low longevity" TIM, or recommend regular replacement of the TIM.  Even VIA processors in many POS systems came with HSF assemblies with preapplied TIM pads that still are working fine. Intel and NVIDIA processors used in automotive computers don't need regular TIM replacing and it is the same TIM used on their PC and graphics processors.

I've been doing electronics and computer tech support since the early 70's for the US Air Force, for state governments, the DoD, State Department, large private corporations, small offices and individual consumers. Many who keep their computers and other electronics well beyond their initial intended purpose because of budget cuts. There are still millions of Dells, Gateways, NCR, Macs, Sonys and other name brands of notebooks and PCs running with Windows NT, XP, Vista and dedicated OSs that have never had their OEM TIM replaced because operating temps are still within "normal operating ranges". And as long as dust is kept in check and fans keep spinning, there is no reason to expect it will have to be replaced either.

In fact, I have never seen or heard of "low longevity" TIM. Got a link? I've seen many types from basic silicone grease, to adhesive, silver based, and non-metallic ceramics. And none recommend regular replacement.


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## R-T-B (Jun 21, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> In fact, I have never seen or heard of "low longevity" TIM. Got a link?



Not a link, but a way to prove it.  Order an old intel stock cooler on ebay from the LGA1366 era.  I guarantee you the TIM will have an expiration date of circa around 2011, be made by corning, and be 100% powder.

The notebooks I have no way of knowing what thermal paste was applied, but it was dry.  It may have still worked fine however I just redid it because I was in there.  I'm fairly certain even you'd agree that was smart, as the bond was broken.

EDIT:

Best image of the crap paste I can find.  I will admit most pastes aren't near as bad as this amazingly bad stuff:


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 21, 2015)

Even basic silicone thermal compound has a shelf life of 5 years when not used but still in an unopened container. But once properly applied it lasts for 10 years or longer - easily.


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## R-T-B (Jun 21, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> Even basic silicone thermal compound has a shelf life of 5 years when not used but still in an unopened container. But once properly applied it lasts for 10 years or longer - easily.



Not that I'm questioning you, but is there any articles covering this?  It seems to me it'll turn to dust on the heatsink (which I've seen) or in the package, and thus, should be replaced.  Or is it fine in that state because of the cure?

Curiosity strikes me...

EDIT:  NVM, I just found what you posted above.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 21, 2015)

R-T-B said:


> It seems to me it'll turn to dust on the heatsink (which I've seen)



Not that I'm questioning you, but are there any articles covering this? I provided a link in post #33 above to the Heatsink pros showing where (and why) it does not matter if TIM dries out. And a link about using an opened 6 year old tube of Artic Silver with no problems.  And I keep asking for anyone to show us where any TIM maker, CPU maker, aftermarket cooler maker, white paper, professional article, electronics journal - anything that says to regularly replace TIM!

I'm a certified master electronics technician. If I'm not doing my job right, I want to know. I need to know. So I've looked and looked and I can't find anywhere that says I need to regularly replace TIM on my processors, rectifiers, power amps, etc.

Here's the manual for the very popular Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO. See for yourself. No mention of regularly replacing their supplied thermal grease.

If this were needed, why don't Dell, HP, Acer, Sony, Toshiba, NVIDIA, Lenovo, etc. mention anything about this in their PC, AiO, or notebook user guides?

Why doesn't General Dynamics tell us in our tech manuals to regularly replace TIM in our ATC transmitters - critical mission essential systems responsible for flight safety? Why?

Gaming motherboards and graphics cards are clearly made for enthusiasts, right? People who are not afraid to dig in and get their hands dirty. So why don't Gigabyte, ASUS, NVIDIA, or AMD say to regularly replace the TIM to ensure best performance?

Why don't instructions for Corsair's very popular Hydro Series of coolers say to regularly replace the TIM? And note they come with pre-applied TIM pads, just like Intel and AMD CPUs!

I think all this misguided talk about regularly replacing TIM started way back when someone pulled their heatsink and noticed the OEM TIM pad looked a mess (probably because they just pulled it apart!). So they replaced their OEM TIM with AS5 or some other advanced TIM. At the same time, they thoroughly cleaned the fins, vents and fans and case interior, rerouted cables, etc. and the combined efforts resulted in a significant drop in temps. They then told someone what happened and somehow, as repeated rumors and story-tellings do, the replacing the TIM portion got enhanced and it spread like wildfire (but ONLY IN FORUMS) from there.

This, in part, might have been stirred up by Artic Silver marketing weenies long ago when home assembly of computers was beginning to become popular, along with overclocking and the bad rap OEM coolers where getting back in the day.

So I am sorry if I have squashed people's pet piece of advice. But advisers need to stop telling users they need to replace their TIM, unless there is clear evidence it needs to be replaced - such as the HSF bracket is loose, or the user pulled the HSF and didn't clean the mating surfaces and apply a fresh new layer of TIM.

Otherwise, this is just the same as wannabe Windows experts automatically telling people they need format and reinstall Windows - once a popular misguided suggestion too. 

***

I do computer repairs. I cannot tell you how many computers have come into the shop where the user mishandled and destroyed the CPU because someone told them to replace the TIM. And they did so without even advising the user about the dangers of ESD, proper cleaning of the mating surfaces, proper application of the new TIM or proper mounting of the HSF assembly.  They just said to replace the old TIM. That, IMO, is irresponsible advice.


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## erocker (Jun 21, 2015)

Sorry Bill , but applying thermal paste is a simple thing to do. Never should so much thought go into such a thing. Yeesh!


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 21, 2015)

erocker said:


> Sorry Bill , but applying thermal paste is a simple thing to do.


Yes, like many things, simple if you know how. I never said it was hard. Yet most normal users don't have a clue how to remove their heat sink, how to properly clean the mating surfaces, anything about ESD precautions, let alone what ESD is, or how to apply a fresh layer of TIM.

But hardly the point. Just because something is easy to do, that does not mean it is something that should be done.

Folks are making unsubstantiated claims that changing the TIM on a regular basis is needed. Yet there is no basis in fact to support those claims - unless you can show us where any TIM maker, aftermarket cooler maker, processor maker, computer maker, etc. say it is necessary.

Please! Show us!



erocker said:


> Never should so much thought go into such a thing. Yeesh!


And sorry, but you are clearly wrong there. ESD damage is one of the leading causes of after-sell CPU damage. Visit a computer repair shop and ask about horror stories concerning TIM, too much TIM, new TIM over old TIM, bent pins, screwdriver gouges in motherboards, improperly mounted HSF assemblies, etc.

Ask yourself, "If it is a necessary procedure, why don't TIM makers, CPU makers, HSF makers, computer makers, recommend regular TIM replacement?"


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## erocker (Jun 21, 2015)

Dunno man. It's not a thing that is difficult to explain to do. There's 100's of guides on it. Replacing paste is generally one of the first things that a new PC "enthusiast" does. It's not necessary but it's something to do in terms of the hobby.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 21, 2015)

erocker said:


> It's not a thing that is difficult to explain to do.



I agree. But when the advice given is just "replace the TIM" with no cleaning or application instructions, and most importantly, no cautions to unplug from the wall and take the necessary ESD precautions, I consider that bad, if not hazardous advice - especially when typically, TIM replacement is not needed. I note most heat related issues are due to poor case cooling (inadequate flow of cool air), excessive dust build up, or improper overclocking. Not because the TIM just turned 2 years old.



> Replacing paste is generally one of the first things that a new PC "enthusiast" does.


Very true. But most enthusiasts are already familiar with their computer components and how to manage heat. Advanced users and enthusiasts are not the ones who come to tech support forums like TPU seeking that sort of help. They already know how, or know how to use our friend, Bing Google.


erocker said:


> It's not necessary but it's something to do in terms of the hobby.


 Thank you so much for saying that.  Now I just wish the folks who have refused to believe me and the links I presented would respect your words and believe you.


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## R-T-B (Jun 22, 2015)

Bill_Bright said:


> Not that I'm questioning you, but are there any articles covering this? I provided a link in post #33 above to the Heatsink pros showing where (and why) it does not matter if TIM dries out. And a link about using an opened 6 year old tube of Artic Silver with no problems.  And I keep asking for anyone to show us where any TIM maker, CPU maker, aftermarket cooler maker, white paper, professional article, electronics journal - anything that says to regularly replace TIM!
> 
> I'm a certified master electronics technician. If I'm not doing my job right, I want to know. I need to know. So I've looked and looked and I can't find anywhere that says I need to regularly replace TIM on my processors, rectifiers, power amps, etc.
> 
> ...



Bill, I respect your experience in the field (I've probably only done 50 computers my entire life, not small but not your scale either).  However, I don't know of any articles, I'm only going by my personal experience.  I'm not in this for an argument I'm just posting what I've seen and what I can logically conclude based on *packed and sealed* thermal paste.  You've provided ample sources to convince me, I have seen some dry thermal paste on an old IBM/Lenovo T60 but it's possible it's because someone had been in there before me and broke the cure or something.

Can't provide much more than that...  Probably because there isn't much more.  As erocker says, we're likely deeply over thinking this simple problem.

PS:  I'd be a certified electronics technician myself as I enjoy the stuff, but I have a fatal flaw in shaky hands that limits my ability to get much done there...  so I'm doomed to a life of software work.


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## MrGenius (Jun 22, 2015)

I do it for the fun of it. Mostly. Far more often than necessary, of which I'm well aware. But I like to think I'm better at it than everybody else too. Which takes practice, of course. So I like to do it sometimes just to keep my skills extra sharp. I'm gifted with the hands of a surgeon you see. Why let that go unused? Plus I'm always striving to see if I can use less/waste less, to get good results. Even though using _way too much_, as opposed to _just the right amount_, has never yielded significantly different results for me(if at all different). In fact, I've been recently experimenting with covering more of the die(mainly for GPU applications obviously) than just the portion which "mostly indirectly" contacts the HS. I think it might be better to get good coverage on all exposed edges, not just the top. I've delidded some CPUs which have shown about that much TIM having been applied. So I suspect, being that in those cases it's intended as a permanent/"lubed for life" application, it can't hurt much, and may actually be beneficial(pardon my misuse of automotive nomenclature). And I may have seen just the tiniest amount of improvement when I've done so(albeit accidently). I need to try that method out a few more times to be sure though. Because at this point I'm not subscribing to the "just enough to cover the top of the silicon" theory anymore. Whereas, I used to find that notion to be a credible one. Believing the whole "too much just acts as a blanket trapping heat" hypothesis. Which is either only partly true, or not true at all IMO. Why would you "want" air to contact any part of the die? Shouldn't it be covered with TIM on all 5 sides? Is air more efficient at transferring heat to the HS than even a somewhat thick layer of TIM? I do realize there's usually some type of cement/epoxy covering the 4 vertical surfaces. But why not try to transfer any heat from that substance to the HS via covering it with TIM as well? Seems reasonable to me. It may not make a very noticeable difference. But I can't believe it would make absolutely no difference at all. That just defies logic. I mean there's, typically, no substantial air flow under there to do any heat removal. So why should the sides remain in contact with only air? Are you going to tell me the sides of the die don't get hot too? Yeah...right.

Now there's some deep over thought for ya! Hopefully I worded it well enough to be interpreted.


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## R-T-B (Jun 22, 2015)

It wouldn't surprise me if thermal paste looses A LITTLE of it's thermal ability over 10 years...  but enough to go out of spec?

Nah, Bill has me convinced there.  It'll do fine.  We enthusiasts are just nuts who take things apart over and over and try probably 2 heatsinks to every mobo upgrade based on the latest reviews...  we probably break the cure A LOT more than the average user and thus replacing IS a good idea...  but that is NOT the norm.


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## CAPSLOCKSTUCK (Jun 22, 2015)

If it aint broke.................


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## Octopuss (Jun 22, 2015)

If you don't mess the application up, it really doesn't matter. What matters is the longevity of the stuff. Some of the crap we used in my old job dried out within a few months.

But anyway, bottom line is: expensive pastes are SNAKE OIL.


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## Bill_Bright (Jun 22, 2015)

Sorry for this long post, but I am responding to a bunch of people's comments.

@R-T-B Thanks and 50 builds is a lot! A lot more than most. 





			
				R-T-B said:
			
		

> I'm just posting what I've seen and what I can logically conclude based on *packed and sealed* thermal paste.


Yeah, this is not really about packed and sealed, "unused" thermal paste but TIM that has already been applied. But as noted by the AS5 reviewer, after 6 years his AS5 had separated a bit, but after squishing the tube to remix the contents, it worked fine. And he confirmed through Arctic Silver tech support as long as it remains smooth and spreadable with no dried chunks in it, then it is still good to use.


R-T-B said:


> PS: I'd be a certified electronics technician myself as I enjoy the stuff, but I have a fatal flaw in shaky hands that limits my ability to get much done there...


I hear you there. Whether a meter probe in one hand, or my soldering pencil in the other, at my age now I have to concentrate and steady hand before diving in. That is, after adjusting my magnifying work light so I can see what I'm doing! 


MrGenius said:


> Plus I'm always striving to see if I can use less/waste less, to get good results.


That's actually a great attitude to take when applying TIM. As noted before, the best heat transfer occurs with metal-to-metal contact and the sole purpose of the TIM is to push out any insulating air in the microscopic pits and valleys of those mating surfaces. Any excess is in the way of that metal-to-metal contact. So yeah, use less/waste less to get better results.



MrGenius said:


> Why would you "want" air to contact any part of the die? Shouldn't it be covered with TIM on all 5 sides? Is air more efficient at transferring heat to the HS than even a somewhat thick layer of TIM?


I don't think you are looking at that correctly. Air is a great insulator, so you are right about not wanting air sitting around the die. But in a properly configured case, the air would NOT be "sitting" around the die. The fans would be moving the air (and the heat) away - which is what you want. So even though you are covering the exposed portions of the die with a great heat conductor, you are still covering those exposed portions with a layer of material that has to introduce some delay in getting rid of the heat! That's counterproductive!

Plus, why channel more heat into the heatsink for it to get rid of when you can have that heat go directly into the airflow? So IMO, not a good idea. Pretty sure if surrounding heat sensitive devices with TIM was beneficial, the thermal and electrical engineers at Intel, NVIDIA, Motorola, Via, and AMD would already be doing that. And the PhD's and master techs in universities and tech schools would be teaching that too. So no. Just between the contact surfaces is where you want the TIM.

So I say, stick with your own, sound philosophy and "use less/waste less".



R-T-B said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if thermal paste looses A LITTLE of it's thermal ability over 10 years... but enough to go out of spec?


I maintained ATC radios for many years and we had to monitor and log system parameters, including temps on a regular basis. Except for maintenance, these systems were on 24/7/365 in an environmentally controlled facility. And yes, temps did rise a few (<5°C) degrees over the years but even in those very strictly controlled conditions, it is impossible to determine what caused the temps to rise. ALL electronics age and become less efficient over time and fan bearings wear altering rotation speeds.

But it didn't matter. Like a CPU, as long as the temps remain within normal operating ranges, performance is not hindered or any less stable, or suffer from increased aging. That is, a CPU at 55°C will be just as stable, have just the same performance, and just the same life expectancy as a CPU at 40°C.



Octopuss said:


> Some of the crap we used in my old job dried out within a few months


I ask again, so what? Where's the documentation to show that matters? I note again the Heatsink Guide link above that points out the dried TIM (the "active" ingredient, if you will - the silver or ceramic material) that is left behind is STILL occupying the space, preventing insulating air from getting into those microscopic pits and valleys.



Octopuss said:


> But anyway, bottom line is: expensive pastes are SNAKE OIL.


It is certainly marketing fluff. Yes, the more expensive TIM may get you a few degrees cooler temps. But if you need those few degrees to stay comfortably within the normal operating range, then your case cooling insufficient and that means YOU have failed to configure your case cooling properly, or to select the proper case for your components within!

For the most part, all those few degrees get you is bragging rights. And for some, that is what they are after and I'm okay with that - as long as they are honest with themselves (and others) that bragging rights is all it is getting them. Not better performance, stability, or CPU life expectancy.



CAPSLOCKSTUCK said:


> If it aint broke.................


Exactly.


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