# Is it illegal to connect to an unsecured network?



## John Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

I brought my laptop over to my Mothers today when I went to cut her grass. She has a PC that's someone gave her but she hasn't used it yet cus it needs a new hard drive.

I was surprised to find someone nearby had an unsecured connection. So I connected my laptop to it for a few minutes just to show Mom what kinds of things she could use the internet for.

Is this illegal?  If not, does it cause any harm to the users account?


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## brandonwh64 (May 20, 2010)

Its technically called "War Driving" Even tho your not driving.

*Edit*

Correction its called piggybacking and yes its illegal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_piggybacking


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## theonedub (May 20, 2010)

Stealing is illegal, whether it be Wifi, cable TV, or someone's iPod.


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## John Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

I see. Thanks.. I just thought it was illegal if they had a password and you hacked it.. otherwise, I thought if they didn't have a password set on purpose.. it was like they were saying they don't care if you use their account.

I have used free accounts from hospitals and places like that. There is even a network of people who will open their network to the public and in exchange they advertise their locations so users can find them to share their connection.. sadly there are none of this group in my area.


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## cadaveca (May 20, 2010)

Yep, illegal, and your MAC ID will be stored in the wireless router, so there's no avoiding prosecution, should the WiFi owner's want to go after you.

My iPod Touch does it automatically, without asking me. I can travel from home to the hospital(5KMs), without any real perceivable connection loss...

If the owner of the connection posts signs saying you can access thier conenction, then it's perfectly legal(depndning on who the owner is), but to tap into someone's home is not, 99.99% of the time.


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## theonedub (May 20, 2010)

I can see where you were going, but think of it this way: if someone left their car unlocked, keys in the ignition with the car running, isn't it still illegal to take the car? 

Its not like the police will come knocking on your door, and the person who own the service may not ever know whats going on, but still.


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## Black Haru (May 20, 2010)

A: never again source Wikipedia (even if its right go to the bottom of the page and source from one of the links)

B: while piggybacking is technically illegal, if they have no password than they are legally responsible for any actions you take while on their account. (they are as liable as you)


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## NdMk2o1o (May 20, 2010)

He asked if it was illegal not immoral and it actually depends on the laws in your country as some have laws covering at some dont!


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## John Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

Check this out.. new york Rocks.. ( from the Wikipedia page):

"New York law is the most permissive.[1]  The statute against unauthorized access only applies when the network "is equipped or programmed with any device or coding system, a function of which is to prevent the unauthorized use of said computer or computer system".[35][36][37][38] 

 In other words, the use of a network would only be considered unauthorized and illegal if the network owner had enabled encryption or password protection and the user bypassed this protection, or when the owner has explicitly given notice that use of the network is prohibited, either orally or in writing.

[1][39][40]  Westchester County passed a law, taking effect in October 2006, that prohibits commercial networks from being operated without a firewall, SSID broadcasting disabled, and a non-default SSID, in an effort to fight identity theft. Businesses that do not secure their networks in this way face a $500 fine. The law has been criticized as being ineffectual against actual identity thieves and punishing businesses like coffee houses for normal business practices"


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## IggSter (May 20, 2010)

the legality of using any unsecured wireless network is very uncertain at the moment.

In Germany it is now illegal to have an unsecured wifi network (yes that right - if i was to connect to an unsecure network and download movies/music etc....the owner of the wifi is responsible even if there is outright proof that he did not perform the download)


Quote from BBC news:

German citizens are responsible for the security of their own private wireless connections, a court has ruled.

The ruling comes after a musician sued the owner of a network connection that had been used to illegally download and file-share music.

The owner had proof that the householder was on holiday at the time but the court ruled that the network should have been password-protected. 

In the UK, the law currently states that it is not illegal to connect to an unsecured wireless LAN, however it is illegal to use someone elses bandwidth or services without their consent. (as a side note for anyone who runs an ftp service or allows inbound connections, ALWAYS put a login banner stating that access is only for authorised users, this is legally binding and can help during disputes) /Quote


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## newtekie1 (May 20, 2010)

The only time this is not illegal is if the owner of the WiFi network purposely left it open for anyone to use, AKA created a hotspot.

However, in most cases in neighborhoods, the WiFi is left unsecure out of ignorance of how to secure it, and not so that anyone can access it.

Personally, I'd try to find who the WiFi belongs to, let them know that they are leaving themselves open for anyone to steal their internet, then offer to secure it for them for free in exchange for letting you use it.



theonedub said:


> I can see where you were going, but think of it this way: if someone left their car unlocked, keys in the ignition with the car running, isn't it still illegal to take the car?
> 
> Its not like the police will come knocking on your door, and the person who own the service may not ever know whats going on, but still.



I like the anology of a car with the gas cap left open.  It is still illegal to steal the gas.


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## John Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> However, in most cases in neighborhoods, the WiFi is left unsecure out of ignorance of how to secure it, and not so that anyone can access it.
> 
> Personally, I'd try to find who the WiFi belongs to, let them know that they are leaving themselves open for anyone to steal their internet, then offer to secure it for them for free in exchange for letting you use it.



LOL That's Funny.. I could do this i'm sure but how would I go about finding this person? The signal was only one bar but stayed stable the whole time.. about 20 minutes.

Also, even though my MAC address is stored in this persons machine, how could he access it and how does that in turn lead back to me?


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## a_ump (May 20, 2010)

no no they're all wrong. It's only illegal if they _catch_ you . i connected to my neighbors net from my aunts for like 3 months all summer. They found out, secured with WEP, then you download a program to get around that and they're dumbfounded cause they think they're safe with the security, but join a diff Workgroup and they'll probly never find you. didn't find me . The majority of people are computer illiterate compared to us, let alone knowing about networking.


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## theonedub (May 20, 2010)

John Phoenix said:


> LOL That's Funny.. I could do this i'm sure but how would I go about finding this person? The signal was only one bar but stayed stable the whole time.. about 20 minutes.
> 
> *Also, even though my MAC address is stored in this persons machine, how could he access it and how does that in turn lead back to me?*



If he/she is running an unsecured wifi network, I would be 99% sure they are incapable of using any of that information to find you  The MAC address is basically the ID to your wifi device, but they are easily manipulated. I would not worry.


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## Champ (May 20, 2010)

a_ump said:


> no no they're all wrong. It's only illegal if they _catch_ you . i connected to my neighbors net from my aunts for like 3 months all summer. They found out, secured with WEP, then you download a program to get around that and they're dumbfounded cause they think they're safe with the security, but join a diff Workgroup and they'll probly never find you. didn't find me . The majority of people are computer illiterate compared to us, let alone knowing about networking.



Shame on you!!!!, but I like the way you think


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## cadaveca (May 20, 2010)

MAC ID is stored in the Router's IP tables. Each network device is assigned an IP, based on the MAC ID.

Even if they didn't know how to access it, the ISP is guarantteed to know how. Most routers keep this info too...if they do not know how to access that stuff, you can guarantee that info will eb there forever, even if the power is removed.

It's then also possible to see what MAC conencted to what addresses, so they can figure out if you've accessed a potentially illegal site.

In Canada, it's 100% illegal, unless explicity given permission.


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## Champ (May 20, 2010)

John Phoenix said:


> LOL That's Funny.. I could do this i'm sure but how would I go about finding this person? The signal was only one bar but stayed stable the whole time.. about 20 minutes.
> 
> *Also, even though my MAC address is stored in this persons machine, how could he access it and how does that in turn lead back to me?*



That's very true.  You blanked with the wrong network if they could


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## Easy Rhino (May 20, 2010)

if you are unsure if it is illegal you can google your state and federal enforcement offices to find out.


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## Champ (May 20, 2010)

Easy Rhino said:


> if you are unsure if it is illegal you can google your state and federal enforcement offices to find out.



best answer yet


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## John Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

theonedub said:


> If he/she is running an unsecured wifi network, I would be 99% sure they are incapable of using any of that information to find you  The MAC address is basically the ID to your wifi device, but they are easily manipulated. I would not worry.



Thanks.. I like that answer.. o.k. I won't worry.

You know it's sad that wifi isn't cheaper.. I already pay for a home connection.. seems it should come standard with free wifi that's available anywhere. Cheapest I found it was 60 bucks.

There is a free wireless service I read about but it uses bluetooth.. I don't understand it.. I don't have any bluetooth devices.. but they say its free but it's limited type of access.

http://www.myfreewirelessisp.com/ 

If I understood it, and could use it, I would at least give it a try.  Can someone look at this and explain it to me please so I will understand what it is they are offering?


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## Easy Rhino (May 20, 2010)

John Phoenix said:


> Thanks.. I like that answer.. o.k. I won't worry.
> 
> You know it's sad that wifi isn't cheaper.. I already pay for a home connection.. seems it should come standard with free wifi that's available anywhere. Cheapest I found it was 60 bucks.
> 
> ...



uh, that site does not look legit at all. i would recommend staying away.


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## IggSter (May 20, 2010)

Edit: this was directed at a post that has since disappeared, referring to someone walking into a house with an open front door being illegal.....

Not strictly true:

1. There is no breaking - just entering.
2. I would just say "Oops sorry, I thought this was the post office - my bad"

The burden of malicious intent still rests with the prosecution (in the UK)

As another side note - If i was to walk into a house through an open front door, and fall through a hole in the floor - I can sue the owner for damages under health and safety law.


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## Easy Rhino (May 20, 2010)

laws are different around the globe obviously. which is why he should simply call up the authorites and ask them if he is that concerned. afterall, we at TPU are not lawyers (at least i dont think anyone here is.)


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## ShiBDiB (May 20, 2010)

> In St. Petersburg, 2005, Benjamin Smith III was arrested and charged with "unauthorized access to a computer network", a third-degree felony in the state of Florida, after using a resident's wireless network from a car parked outside



Yes in most places around the US it is illegal, but the chances of being caught if ur using it from a neighboring house and not being a creeper out in the street r pretty slim to none. 

And whoever was saying that "They haz ur MAC address FOREVAAAAAAAR" im not sure what kind of router you have but ur wrong.


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## cadaveca (May 20, 2010)

ShiBDiB said:


> And whoever was saying that "They haz ur MAC address FOREVAAAAAAAR" im not sure what kind of router you have but ur wrong.



If you say so...but let me ask you, have you worked for an ISP? If the router was provided by an ISP. I can guarantee thier firmware keeps track(unless you change settings), and even better, the provisioning tables within the ISP's records keep track...

D-link modems, for one, keep IP/MAC logs until the internal memory is full, and then write over old entries(although this can be turned off). However, because most router's don't get many connections on the LAN side, they hardly ever re-write this bit of memory.

The issue at hand is that the OP has no way of knowing what type of router, or even where the rotuer is located, so it must be considered more than possible...In fact, I can pull out any of my older gateways form teh past 10 years(I have 6 now), and each and every one of them has full listings, and my current MediaShow gateway has no way to remove these listings either.


FYI, I'm always also one of the first to get new services from my provider. That bandwidth you see in my sig is only that low due to having 6 PVR's on my connection, and they are "always on" type STB's(they are always on the ensure TV works the moment you "turn on" the box). I challenge you to find another Telus ADSL customer anywhere in Canada with the same speeds...because it's only available in my immediate neighbourhood.


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## newtekie1 (May 20, 2010)

cadaveca said:


> If you say so...but let me ask you, have you worked for an ISP? If the router was provided by an ISP. I can guarantee thier firmware keeps track(unless you change settings), and even better, the provisioning tables within the ISP's records keep track...



If the router was provided by an ISP, I can guarantee you it had some form of encryption enabled on the wireless, even it was 64-bit WEP, it would not come to the customer unprotected.

Now most consumer level routers, which are the most likely source of an open WiFi network, only store the MAC address as long as the IP lease is valid, then deletes it.  There is a MAC address switching table in the router that might store it longer, but there is no way for a user to access this via the interface of the router.


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## ShiBDiB (May 20, 2010)

cadaveca said:


> If you say so...but let me ask you, have you worked for an ISP? If the router was provided by an ISP. I can guarantee thier firmware keeps track(unless you change settings), and even better, the provisioning tables within the ISP's records keep track...
> 
> D-link modems, for one, keep IP/MAC logs until the internal memory is full, and then write over old entries(although this can be turned off). However, because most router's don't get many connections on the LAN side, they hardly ever re-write this bit of memory.
> 
> ...



From personal knowledge fiddling with peoples routers and modems, I've yet to see one that transmits more then the overall usage (up/down) back to an ISP. The mac may be stored in a log temporarily but those things r constantly overwritten and replaced by new info.

Now if you suddenly started seeing a HUGE spike in traffic from one user then ya sure they could probably go look and see wtf is up.


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## cadaveca (May 20, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> If the router was provided by an ISP, I can guarantee you it had some form of encryption enabled on the wireless, even it was 64-bit WEP, it would not come to the customer unprotected.
> 
> Now most consumer level routers, which are the most likely source of an open WiFi network, only store the MAC address as long as the IP lease is valid, then deletes it.



 I wish. I must digress, maybe it's that way with your provider, but I can guarantee that Comcast does no such thing...'cause Comcast contracts out all installs( so such things are dependant on the contractor, and how helpfull they actually feel at that moment)...and I could tell you TONNES of dirt about Comcast.

I mean, you guys could be right, some modems/routers do work that way, but not all, so you can't just dismiss the possibility.


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## newtekie1 (May 20, 2010)

cadaveca said:


> I wish. I must digress, ,aybe it's that way with your provider, but I can guarantee that Comcast does no such thing...'cause Comcast contracts out all installs...and I could tell you TONNES of dirt about Comcast.
> 
> I mean ,you guys could be right, some modems do work that way, but not all, so you can't just dismiss the possibility.



My provider _is_ Comcast:






I have comcast in both my home and business.

But I will agree, the quality of work done on the install depends greatly on the contractor you get that day.  Between the two of us we probably have enough dirt to fill a dump truck...

However, the routers _do_ come with security enabled, though I will grant you that a shitty contractor might disable it as a shortcut.

Though I've never actually seen a consumer grade* router/AP that stored MAC address indefinitely, at least not in an area the user can access.

*Yes, I consider those POS Comcast Business Gateways consumer grade.


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## cadaveca (May 20, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> However, the routers _do_ come with security enabled, though I will grant you that a shitty contractor might disable it as a shortcut.
> 
> Though I've never actually seen a router/AP that stored MAC address indefinitely, at least not in an area the user can access.



+1 to Comcast if they are shipping out modems with security enabled, but I tell ya what, the ones you buy in the store don't..at least, not all of them.

Having worked in Camcast's NOC, i tend to know a bit more about it than the avg person. The best bit was how new accounts were screwed up...intentionally...so that the company contracted to provide tech support got more calls.

A little code in the customer's account ensured they'd only get one IP lease, and then the modem would be blocked from getting a new lease until that code was removed from the account. One little 2-letter code...that was pruposely put into the account, and did nothing but ensure only one lease was given.

Hopefully that's still not going on, but it's more than likely.:shadedshu


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## douglatins (May 20, 2010)

OMG if this ever becomes true this is not the planet i want to live in. Although i bet Australia will be the first to make this a law


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## theonedub (May 20, 2010)

newtekie1 said:


> *If the router was provided by an ISP, I can guarantee you it had some form of encryption enabled on the wireless, even it was 64-bit WEP, it would not come to the customer unprotected.*
> 
> Now most consumer level routers, which are the most likely source of an open WiFi network, only store the MAC address as long as the IP lease is valid, then deletes it.  There is a MAC address switching table in the router that might store it longer, but there is no way for a user to access this via the interface of the router.



Please do not give all ISPs such credit  I have Frontier, arguably the worst ISP ever created, and their hardware did not come with security enabled whatsoever. They don't even have the independent contractor excuse either.


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## r9 (May 20, 2010)

Only if you are caught.


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## LAN_deRf_HA (May 20, 2010)

Just never connect to a random network without changing your mac address, problem solved.


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## cadaveca (May 20, 2010)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Just never connect to a random network without changing your mac address, problem solved.


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## John Phoenix (May 21, 2010)

LAN_deRf_HA said:


> Just never connect to a random network without changing your mac address, problem solved.



I suppose that's good advice for those who plan to connect to unsecured networks a lot.. but I have come across some info that tells you how to pinpoint the person piggybacking off your access.

" On a laptop run Kismet – or netstumber use the signal to noise ratio to pinpoint his house – once the signal is bigger than the noise you should be looking at his front porch."

The post goes on to say then, ring doorbell and punch him in the nose. LOL

So with this method, even if you change your MAC address to mask your hardware, you could still be found.


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## Geofrancis (May 26, 2010)

if your going to TEST somones network i would suggest 3 things

1. SPOOF your mac so it cant be traced. this can also be done with jailbroken iphones/ipods
2. connect to a public VPN so packet sniffers on the network cant see what your on. you cant be too carefull
3. dont take the piss! checking you email and facebook is ok but when you start downloading multi Gb files and you go over there limit and there bills end up double what it normaly is THEY WILL NOTICE!


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## DonInKansas (May 26, 2010)

a_ump said:


> no no they're all wrong. It's only illegal if they _catch_ you .



So if I shoot you in the face and no one sees it it's okay?  

If I leave my house door unlocked, it's still trespassing if you walk in without my consent.


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## Geofrancis (May 26, 2010)

DonInKansas said:


> So if I shoot you in the face and no one sees it it's okay?
> 
> If I leave my house door unlocked, it's still trespassing if you walk in without my consent.



its more like leaving a hose pipe running and somone drinks from it. sure it was your water but are you really losing out unless they take it all.


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## canook37 (May 26, 2010)

the only wifi connections i connect to are businesses, my own, and if someone types public somewhere in the networks name xP

Other then that you are probly stealing some old couple's or illiterate users. Thats called taking advantage of.


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## MohawkAngel (May 26, 2010)

IMO... Wireless connection is like a wallet you found in the street. If you can point out whos the wner and dont give him back then its stealing. If you advise the owner to secure it better (wallet or wireles) then youre legal and honnest plus helpful. But if you find a money wallet with no identity cards in it or not able to find whos having the wireless unsecured...then screw them you keep it. If they were stupid enough to not identify themselves then why bothering with morality?


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## HookeyStreet (May 26, 2010)

You tapped into their WiFi for just a few minutes, dont worry about it.  Now if you stayed connected for hours downloading pron, then thats a different matter 

If someone was leeching onto my internet, because I didnt use any kind of security, then fairplay to them.  But if someone hacked my router to gain access then they would be making a date with Mr .44 (after I got hold of a gun of course  )


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## Marineborn (Jun 6, 2010)

just claim you thought it was a hotspot and you were computer illiterate and didnt know


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## Deleted member 24505 (Jun 6, 2010)

In britain its a criminal offense i think.


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## AsRock (Jun 6, 2010)

DonInKansas said:


> So if I shoot you in the face and no one sees it it's okay?
> 
> If I leave my house door unlocked, it's still trespassing if you walk in without my consent.



Not sure about the USA but there be one less charge due to it as it would not be breaking and entry as you left the door\window unlocked there fore sentence is reduced because of it  and god help you if you left your key in the door lol.


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## Mussels (Jun 6, 2010)

afaik its illegal... its just hard to prove who got on the network.


should you get on someone smarts network who can record MAC's and the websites you went to... well, you're screwed. they could even log your traffic/unencrypted passwords etc

short version... just dont do it unless you're a lowlife who likes taking things that dont belong to you. if you're the kind of person who returns a wallet you found only after taking out all the cash, then by all means... hop on that free wifi.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jun 6, 2010)

lol I need to go after ALL of my neighbors. One day I reset my router due to a lighting storm and forgot (many beers that day) to re-secure it. A few days later my connection was hell and I couldn't figure out why! Went to my routers homepage and saw my mistake but to my surprise saw 6 other connections!

What was creepy is one of my neighbors I found out has a foot/redhead fetish. My wife is a redhead and always wore sandals. After that she now wears a hat and sneakers.


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