# The Heatsink with NO FAN...The Sandia Cooler



## cadaveca (Jun 28, 2012)

> The Sandia Cooler is 30-times more efficient than conventional air-cooled heat exchangers and is available for licensing to electronics and solid state lighting cooling manufacturers.



I first saw this some time ago, maybe a couple of years. However, about a week ago, new info came out, and well, here it is:










Nothing like a completely different, and new cooling solution...apparantly liscenced for some sort of PC cooling?


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## micropage7 (Jun 28, 2012)

wow nice
but you need to watch the fin and i cant stand the ziiiing sound


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## Kantastic (Jun 28, 2012)

I can't believe this is actually being realized! I was pretty excited about it when it was announced. But I have to ask, barring the literal definition, is it really "fan-less" when there is still a motor and impellers?

Now... where is DataSlide and their Rectangular Hard Drive?

PS - Anyone else watch the video suggestion on the upper right hand corner? I couldn't resist a woman in a bikini.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 28, 2012)

lol. this is just like the heatsink is moving instead of the fan. something like combining the heatsink and the fan to increase the combined efficiency.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 28, 2012)

But i do believe this will still significantly collect dust. just like fans.

wmdering why they didnt change the impeller design to something more ideal, like in an ideal impeller pump.....


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## Kantastic (Jun 28, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> But i do believe this will still significantly collect dust. just like fans.
> 
> wmdering why they didnt change the impeller design to something more ideal, like in an ideal impeller pump.....



Fans don't collect dust, fins inside heatsinks do because nothing is pushing them out (or nothing strong enough). If the video is true to the technology, then dust shouldn't be a problem.


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## Sir B. Fannybottom (Jun 28, 2012)

I could never have one of those, partly because of the sound, and because I know I would slice open my hand.


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## RejZoR (Jun 28, 2012)

The metallic grinding noise is unbearable if you ask me. I have loads of experience with standard fans and the noise pitch they emit can make all the difference. This one on a scale from 0-10 is at around 8.

For example i was running Noiseblocker BlackSilent fans till yesterday and even though they were very silent, they were emitting the sound with rather annoying pitch. Replaced all of them with Multiframe and even though they emit the same sort of decibel noise, the pitch is very different, way less annoying. They'll have to address this, otherwise it's an useless design.


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## erocker (Jun 28, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> Fans don't collect dust, fins inside heatsinks do because nothing is pushing them out (or nothing strong enough). If the video is true to the technology, then dust shouldn't be a problem.



Fan blades most certainly collect dust.. as will this impeller design.


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## theonedub (Jun 28, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> The metallic grinding noise is unbearable if you ask me. I have loads of experience with standard fans and the noise pitch they emit can make all the difference. This one on a scale from 0-10 is at around 8.
> 
> For example i was running Noiseblocker BlackSilent fans till yesterday and even though they were very silent, they were emitting the sound with rather annoying pitch. Replaced all of them with Multiframe and even though they emit the same sort of decibel noise, the pitch is very different, way less annoying. They'll have to address this, otherwise it's an useless design.



Did you watch the entire video? They address the noise from the DC motor and state it will not be present in production models.


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## Kantastic (Jun 28, 2012)

erocker said:


> Fan blades most certainly collect dust.. as will this impeller design.



I've seen fans with coated with a layer of dust, but that's far from what's collected in a heatsink.







That's one dusty heatsink but the fan looks more or less fine. If dust gets onto a fan, it's probably because air can't be channeled through the clogged fins of the heatsink.


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## pabloottawa (Jun 28, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> But i do believe this will still significantly collect dust. just like fans.
> 
> wmdering why they didnt change the impeller design to something more ideal, like in an ideal impeller pump.....



Corsair uses an impeller type pump in their H100s...


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## erocker (Jun 28, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> I've seen fans with coated with a layer of dust, but that's far from what's collected in a heatsink.
> 
> http://www.technibble.com/articlecontent/2008/09/dusty-computer-2.jpg
> 
> That's one dusty heatsink but the fan looks more or less fine. If dust gets onto a fan, it's probably because air can't be channeled through the clogged fins of the heatsink.



Correct, but the fan will still collect dust, even on a case fan.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 28, 2012)

wait. just let me show you a picture of the dust on a fan. you will be amazed.


dust alone isnt a problem, but when you have humidity and lint in the mix, you get dust bunnies.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 28, 2012)

and as for the grinding noise. if they asked me, i would have used a hydro type bearing. i would have used a fluid layer separating the two. the fluid would have low viscosity ofcourse to decrease inefficiency. using liquid is in my opinion a far better way.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 28, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> I've seen fans with coated with a layer of dust, but that's far from what's collected in a heatsink.
> 
> http://www.technibble.com/articlecontent/2008/09/dusty-computer-2.jpg
> 
> That's one dusty heatsink but the fan looks more or less fine. If dust gets onto a fan, it's probably because air can't be channeled through the clogged fins of the heatsink.


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## pabloottawa (Jun 28, 2012)

This design has a lot of challenges and from what i can tell here are some.

It will NOT be 100% dust free as static electricity will make dust cling to it no matter how fast it spins. 
This liquid it floats on will get dirty thus affecting it's ability to spin properly.

You'll need a pretty strong magnet to hold the impeller when it's resting on its side. How will this magnetic field affect the rest of the components in the case?

It STILL makes noise. Cant beleive they are claiming it's "noiseless"

There's still a chance the impeller can fall off or even worse go flying off if it's off balance. Not good for an enclosed case with expensive PC components.


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## micropage7 (Jun 28, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> http://regmedia.co.uk/2010/11/25/ventblockers_dust_02.jpg



thats why you need a nice air filter 
everything in your pc could collect dust, fans, hsf, cables, drives
dust is common problems

@ de.das.dude: why dont you add it on previous post than 3ple post


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## btarunr (Jun 28, 2012)

Yup, almost an year old.

http://www.techpowerup.com/149060/N...undamental-Breakthrough-in-Heat-Transfer.html


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## AsRock (Jun 28, 2012)

They did not really show it working and even if they used some type of oil to transfer the heat the oil will require changing over time.

Kinda curious if they used a brush or brush-less motor.

Hope it works out be nice to OTHER kind of coolers.


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## Mussels (Jun 28, 2012)

my concern is what happens if the 'fan' stops spinning. without a chunk of passive metal like traditional heatsinks have, wont this overheat much faster?


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## btarunr (Jun 28, 2012)

Mussels said:


> my concern is what happens if the 'fan' stops spinning. without a chunk of passive metal like traditional heatsinks have, wont this overheat much faster?



Yup, but most modern processors power the system down when TJmax is reached, anyway.


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## EarthDog (Jun 28, 2012)

Kantastic said:


> Fans don't collect dust




Right, thats why I have to clean my fans off too when I clean my case.


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## specks (Jun 28, 2012)

So it uses a thin layer of air to transfer heat from the stationary piece to the impeller?


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## pantherx12 (Jun 28, 2012)

Seems an awful lot of people didn't watch the entire video.

This is a preproduction model the motor in it doesn't need to be quiet, when you can actually buy this it will have a silent motor.

There is almost zero air noise from the device ( as shown when it was coasting) so with an upgraded motor this thing will be silent or close to it.



And someone said the liquid it floats on? It floats on air, some of the air that is drawn in is used to lift the device on a cushion on air. ( Think air hockey)



@Above yeah a thin layer of air and some strange quirk in hydrodynamics means heat transfer is still fine and dandy.


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## specks (Jun 28, 2012)

Its kinda hard to see how this layer of air is going to transfer heat when air is better off an insulator than a conductor.


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## NHKS (Jun 28, 2012)

specks said:


> Its kinda hard to see how this layer of air is going to transfer heat when air is better off an insulator than a conductor.



I understand skepticism is what one would feel on first seeing this concept.. but here is are some facts behind the concept according to Sandia:



> In the Sandia Cooler, the heatsink itself is the fan. It is a cast metal impeller that floats on a *hydrodynamic air bearing* just a thousandth of an inch (*0.03 *millimeters) above a metal heat pipe spreader, powered by a brushless motor in the middle.
> 
> The prototype (shown in the video) is 10 times smaller than a commercial state-of-the-art cooler, but has the same cooling performance.
> 
> The Sandia Cooler’s impeller blades can have a geometry that perfectly splits the air at the impeller entrance (in the middle) and rejoins the air flow at the exit (the edges).





> The dust immunity derives from two facets of the Sandia Cooler’s design:
> a) Because they’re constantly moving at *2000+ RPM*, it’s almost impossible for dust to settle on the heatsink’s blades, and
> b) Centrifugal force drives out any dust from the tiny air gap between the heatsink and heat spreader.
> 
> This centrifugal force is what gives the Sandia Cooler such massive efficiency, too. In standard heatsinks, the heat exchange surface is covered in “dead air” boundary layer that acts as an insulator; in the Sandia Cooler, the centrifugal force *reduces the thickness *of this boundary layer by *10 times*.



I am not sold on these claims until they bring out the final product, but I want to believe they can.

More references:
 Presentation by Sandia
Sandia Cooler page


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## Mussels (Jun 28, 2012)

the only part i disagree with is that 2000 RPM will stop dust. we all know it wont, because that PC will get turned off sooner or later. also, hair.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 28, 2012)

specks said:


> Its kinda hard to see how this layer of air is going to transfer heat when air is better off an insulator than a conductor.



You are incorrect sir.  

For those who don't understand, here's a crash course in physics.


There are three total ways for heat to be transferred; radiation, convection, and conduction.  Examples of these are:
Radiation: The sun has a functionally empty void between it and the Earth, yet it transfers energy to us through radiation.
Convection: Think ovens.  The heat comes from the element, but the entire fluid (air inside the oven) gets hot.  Hotter fluids and cooler fluids mix and flow so that they come to thermal equilibrium.
Conduction: Normal heatsinks.  Direct contact transfers thermal energy from one body to another, through the contact surface.

Now, fluids retain heat at different rates.  Think about it as such, the air temperature can vary several degrees during the day.  In the Midwest of the US it has been recorded to be sunny and warm (~70F) during the day, but drop down to below freezing over night.  On the other hand, Lake Superior never changes mean temperature by more than a few degrees over the course of a week.  This illustrates that the thermal capacity of water is different than that of air.

Moving on, the temperature of something is determined to be either stable, cooling or heating.  This is determined by the flow of heat.  Imagine that you have a bucket, which has holes along the side.  You begin pouring water into the bucket.  The bucket is an object, the water being poured in is heat being generated from operation, and the holes are transfer of heat.  You heat up if the rate of water being poured in is higher than the rate it drains from the holes.  If you pour water in at the same rate it is being drained you've got a constant temperature.  If you pour water in slower than it drains you've got cooling.

Combining these three ideas, we can discern the following:
1) Air needs flow faster over a heatsink (as compared to water or oil), in order to have the same heat transfer rate as those fluids do (combine lesson 2 and 3).
2) Air contact can be just as effective as other fluid contact, given the right conditions.  You can increase convective cooling dramatically, and make it as effective as conductive cooling (combine lesson 1 and 2).



So, as far as hydrodynamics goes, I'm going to glaze over most of that, given it would take a semester in college to get anything besides the basic idea.  Be forewarned.

All known fluids (yes, we theorize perfect fluids exist, but can't replicate them on Earth) have a viscosity.  Viscosity is the tendency for a fluid to resist flowing.  Think honey (viscous), versus water (less viscous), for an example.

Viscosity is a property of both the fluid, and the forces applied on the fluids.  Think about swimming in water, versus hitting it at 80 Mph.  So the faster you move, the greater the viscosity of a fluid.  Air is a fluid, so at some speed the viscosity of air will actually be a palpable force.

Combining this, a flow of air moving at great speeds could act like a solid, and provide enough force to separate two other solids.

This is the idea behind an air bearing.  A device moves so fast that the airflow it generates creates a "cushion" for the component to ride on.  As the friction from fluid shear is significantly lower than that of kinetic friction (solid moving across another solid), you get a low friction bearing that has an ideally limitless lifespan due to not being worn away.




Now combine hydrodynamics and thermodynamics, and you get this fan.  Fast airflow creates a cushion for the fan blades to ride on (functionally 0 noise, due to 0 physical contact).  Fast airflow allows both efficient convective and conductive cooling to occur.  The only problem that remains is the motor driving the fans.  A brushless DC motor could generate a long lifespan, low noise, extremely efficient cooler.  If you were to use a noisy motor, you can account for the noise in the video.  Everything else is legitimate, but there are two remaining concerns.  Construction to the tolerances required may be an interesting proposition, and the quickly spinning fan blades are a major concern.  If Sandia can finally overcome that (i.e. why these aren't already in production) then they've got a winner.


Edit:
Thanks Kreij, I did screw up the name.  It has been changed to read conduction properly.  Whoops.

Edit:
Arrgh, another error because typing being faster than my brain (yes, intentional screw-up there).  Thanks to Completely Bonkers for finding my capacity/conductivity screw-up.


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## specks (Jun 28, 2012)

you an engineer or somethin?


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## EarthDog (Jun 28, 2012)

I learned that in High School... LOL


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## specks (Jun 28, 2012)

Ok i guess im a dumbass


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 28, 2012)

specks said:


> you an engineer or somethin?



Mechanical engineer.  QED mutha ****a'!



Sorry, terribly awful part of me managed to get out there. ..


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## Red_Machine (Jun 28, 2012)

I'd buy one of these things.  The concept seems sound, and I do hate fan noise.

With regards to the 2000RPM will not stop dust because it'll get switched off, I imagine it'll all get blown out as soon as you turn it on.


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## Kreij (Jun 28, 2012)

@lilhassel : In your very good physics lesson you listed convection twice in the three type of heat transfer. The last one should be conduction. 
(Not an mech. eng., but I'm not a bad proofreader. lol)

So put a water block on the CPU and use this baby to cool the rad and it's win-win !!


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## popswala (Jun 28, 2012)

I remember this on tpu a while back. I just watched he video to it. Pretty neat seeing it in action.

Got a question about it though. While its on and it hovers with that slight air blanket between it, How does the heat transfer from the base metal through the air blanket to the impeller or is it being cooled another way. I see the the air funneling into the middle opening where the motor is but I don't get how it cools.

*Scratch that lol. I just read that 2nd quote in NHKS's post. Sounds like the air coming into the middle replaces the air blanket and the air blanket is pushed out drawing the heat with it. Sis I get that right?

If that's a smaller version of it, then it'll look beastly when its full size and better have a cage over it lol


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## Random Murderer (Jun 28, 2012)

First saw this last year some time and was very intrigued. Glad to see they're not only still working on it, but they seem to have a design that may be ready for production.



micropage7 said:


> wow nice
> but you need to watch the fin and i cant stand the ziiiing sound



I would imagine the finished product would have some sort of cage around it to prevent injury.
Also, that sound you hear from the motor will be damn near inaudible when they put a shroud over the motor.


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## NHKS (Jun 28, 2012)

THANKS for the effort put in explaining Heat transfer, lilhasselhoffer... 

basically another difference(or advantage?) this cooler has with conventional fin-based cooler is that the heatsink itself is made to move thru the cooling medium (in this case 'air') rather than air(from fan) moving over fins... air from a cooling fan is always turbulent... so, that means boundary layer is more stable (less turbulence) at high speeds and hence better transfer takes place..

let me know if I am wrong..


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## Completely Bonkers (Jun 28, 2012)

Nice idea. But it needs to be mounted PERFECTLY horizontally for it to work (and lift) on the bed of air.  The design has to be 100% perfect, just like your car wheels need to be balanced, this will need very accurate balancing. Expensive.  There will be uses for this... but not in consumer PC's. It just isnt practical or cost effective in this situation.

lilhasselhoffer +1. nice laymans explanation, except this: 





lilhasselhoffer said:


> Now, fluids retain heat at different rates. Think about it as such, the air temperature can vary several degrees during the day. In the Midwest of the US it has been recorded to be sunny and warm (~70F) during the day, but drop down to below freezing over night. On the other hand, Lake Superior never changes mean temperature by more than a few degrees over the course of a week. This illustrates that the thermal conductivity of water is different than that of air.


 which would get you a college -1. This is the thermal capacity, mass and volume that determines that ability of the late to retain the heat (or indeed the air to cool), and not just conductivity!  hehe


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## cadaveca (Jun 28, 2012)

Completely Bonkers said:


> Nice idea. But it needs to be mounted PERFECTLY horizontally for it to work (and lift) on the bed of air. The design has to be 100% perfect, just like your car wheels need to be balanced, this will need very accurate balancing. Expensive. There will be uses for this... but not in consumer PC's. It just isnt practical or cost effective in this situation.



They say the opposite. Any direction for mounting, and not that expensive, and tolerances don't need to be that tight.


Sandia is a division of Lockheed Martin, IIRC, so I have no doubt they have the brainpower and technology available to make this a reality.

Anyway, I jsut say that the video was newly uploaded, thought some might find it interesting. Perhaps we'l lsee a heatsink with it, perhaps not. Apparantly it's very likely to end up as a cooler for LED lighting...?


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## RejZoR (Jun 28, 2012)

They can have all the brain power and all but this thing is still a finger cutter. 2000 RPM and a metal rotating piece of blunt blades. Stick a finger in it and bang, the finger is gone.
Also god forbid that you'd accidentally get a wire in it. Bang and the wire is gone. Just make sure it's not a 230V one...


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## Random Murderer (Jun 28, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> They can have all the brain power and all but this thing is still a finger cutter. 2000 RPM and a metal rotating piece of blunt blades. Stick a finger in it and bang, the finger is gone.
> Also god forbid that you'd accidentally get a wire in it. Bang and the wire is gone. Just make sure it's not a 230V one...



As with all dangerous items, common sense is a must. You wouldn't put your hand under a running lawn mower, would you?


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## D4S4 (Jun 28, 2012)

you can put a plate on the rotor blades and there's less concern about tools loosing fingers.


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## RejZoR (Jun 28, 2012)

Random Murderer said:


> As with all dangerous items, common sense is a must. You wouldn't put your hand under a running lawn mower, would you?



It's not the same. I can easily stick a finger in any plastic fan (maybe not in 7k RPM Delta but still). I wouldn't touch this monstrosity...


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## Random Murderer (Jun 28, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> It's not the same. I can easily stick a finger in any plastic fan (maybe not in 7k RPM Delta but still). I wouldn't touch this monstrosity...



Again, common sense. Just because you _can_ stick your finger in a plastic fan without it hurting you(depending on type. obviously Delta, San-Ace, Scythe will draw blood or worse) doesn't mean you _should_. It can throw the fan off balance, damage the motor, break a fin, etc.

Besides, you shouldn't have your hands inside your computer while it's running anyway. There's more to worry about than getting injured from a fan.


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## trickson (Jun 28, 2012)

Whines just like my water pump!


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## RejZoR (Jun 29, 2012)

Random Murderer said:


> Again, common sense. Just because you _can_ stick your finger in a plastic fan without it hurting you(depending on type. obviously Delta, San-Ace, Scythe will draw blood or worse) doesn't mean you _should_. It can throw the fan off balance, damage the motor, break a fin, etc.
> 
> Besides, you shouldn't have your hands inside your computer while it's running anyway. There's more to worry about than getting injured from a fan.



Who says anyone is intentionally sticking fingers into fans? Such things happen during maintenance or testing when systems are running, either for debugging or finding out other sorts of issues.

Most blenders also have security switches to prevent cutting of fingers if bowl is opened.
Common sense says you shouldn't do that but apparently ppl still do it if they have to add such security mechanisms. So you also can't just assume ppl won't stick fingers in this thing.
Common sense or without it.


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## fullinfusion (Jun 29, 2012)

That coolers fan frequency would drive me up the wall... Big Time!!!!! 

I'm going by that video!

that cooler in a tank full of mineral oil would be something to be desired! 

*EDIT* Dave was that you @ 5:24 in the video? The guy in the middle of the screen? hehhehe


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## phanbuey (Jun 29, 2012)

lets see if it works... it seems unpractical, which in the end will limit the total amount of heat it can dissipate in that design... the theory is sound and all but with that little disk to work with... meh.  Just because something is "more efficient" doesn't mean better.

I could put a frozen yogurt on a chip and it will be the most efficient sink on the market for about 13 seconds.


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## cadaveca (Jun 29, 2012)

phanbuey said:


> I could put a frozen yogurt on a chip and it will be the most efficient sink on the market for about 13 seconds.





Good thought. Yet still, I cannot help but hope that this sees some sort of success. Because it's Lockheed-Martin, they aren't actually ever going to release anything with this technology themselves, and instead, will liscence it to other companys to produce. The idea we might see a heatsink based on this tech might just not even last that 13 seconds.


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## phanbuey (Jun 29, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Good thought. Yet still, I cannot help but hope that this sees some sort of success. Because it's Lockheed-Martin, they aren't actually ever going to release anything with this technology themselves, and instead, will liscence it to other companys to produce. The idea we might see a heatsink based on this tech might just not even last that 13 seconds.



well put sir... 

In all honesty I would like to see it too... it's time for a bit of a heatpipe revolution.

But having been through the TEC craze and the Danamics Liquid Metal hype, I can't help but be a bit jaded - not at the science - but at the end result.   Still if it works... it would be awesome, the scope of application is much more than the initial idea - and that is great thing.


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## bbmarley (Jun 29, 2012)

having put my hand inside pc case before tampering with stuff and catching it on a fan while the pc was on
i can see this destroying my finger


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## pantherx12 (Jun 29, 2012)

phanbuey said:


> well put sir...
> 
> In all honesty I would like to see it too... it's time for a bit of a heatpipe revolution.
> 
> But having been through the TEC craze and the Danamics Liquid Metal hype, I can't help but be a bit jaded - not at the science - but at the end result.   Still if it works... it would be awesome, the scope of application is much more than the initial idea - and that is great thing.



To be fair, tecs work you just need even more heatsinks/rads than you usually would


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## qubit (Jun 29, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> The metallic grinding noise is unbearable if you ask me. I have loads of experience with standard fans and the noise pitch they emit can make all the difference. This one on a scale from 0-10 is at around 8.
> 
> For example i was running Noiseblocker BlackSilent fans till yesterday and even though they were very silent, they were emitting the sound with rather annoying pitch. Replaced all of them with Multiframe and even though they emit the same sort of decibel noise, the pitch is very different, way less annoying. They'll have to address this, otherwise it's an useless design.



I couldn't agree more. It sounds like a 90s hard disc with noisy ball bearings and is certainly intolerable. I can only hope that this level of noise is due to its prototype status and that a production model would use quiet FDB bearings.


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## Random Murderer (Jun 29, 2012)

qubit said:


> I couldn't agree more. It sounds like a 90s hard disc with noisy ball bearings and is certainly intolerable. I can only hope that this level of noise is due to its prototype status and that a production model would use quiet FDB bearings.



Considering that this cooler works on the principles of fluid dynamics, one would imagine they would end up using a motor with fluid dynamic bearings on the final product, right?
Of course, like Dave said, this is a division of Lockheed. They'll probably end up licensing the design out to a few manufacturers and it will be up to the manufacturers to decide what types of motors, bearings, shrouds, etc. are used. Sort of like a video card: Nvidia or AMD designs a new card and sends the design specs to their partners, who then make changes as they see fit.

Even so, I think we're jumping the gun a bit. Sandia is just now getting to the phase where they show it off to prospective investors/partners. It's been almost a year since we saw the proof of concept, now they have a working model. It could be another year before that working model sees production.


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## qubit (Jun 29, 2012)

Random Murderer said:


> Considering that this cooler works on the principles of fluid dynamics, one would imagine they would end up using a motor with fluid dynamic bearings on the final product, right?
> Of course, like Dave said, this is a division of Lockheed. They'll probably end up licensing the design out to a few manufacturers and it will be up to the manufacturers to decide what types of motors, bearings, shrouds, etc. are used. Sort of like a video card: Nvidia or AMD designs a new card and sends the design specs to their partners, who then make changes as they see fit.
> 
> *Even so, I think we're jumping the gun a bit. Sandia is just now getting to the phase where they show it off to prospective investors/partners. It's been almost a year since we saw the proof of concept, now they have a working model. It could be another year before that working model sees production.*


It does make you wonder what's so hard about refining this new type of cooler for production readiness, doesn't it? After all, this is just a cooler, not something extremely complicated like an IC design or something.


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## FreedomEclipse (Jun 29, 2012)

RejZoR said:


> Who says anyone is intentionally sticking fingers into fans? Such things happen during maintenance or testing when systems are running, either for debugging or finding out other sorts of issues.



then what are you complaining about???? In anycase when the design is finalised it should come with a shroud that stops people putting their fingers in.

If you look carefully, the design is similar to the squirrel cage coolers that come on the reference coolers of graphic cards.

I dont see any problems with the 'safety' aspect of the design what so ever.


Like Random Murderer said, its common sense unless you feel the urge to stick your fingers in every fan once you got the side panel of your case open.

Either I fiddle with my pc when its turned off or I leave it running with the sidepanel off and dont touch the insides - i.e. look but not touch.

and if i do have to touch then i make sure my fingers dont get pulled into the blades of a spinning fan by its gravitational field the motor might make or the fans sucktion - which less face it. its hardly gonna drag you in as if you were in 300mph winds in a wind tunnel


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## phanbuey (Jun 29, 2012)

^^ it probably would work well on a videocard.


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## pabloottawa (Jun 29, 2012)

I think in the end, the final production model will have just as many cons to it as a traditional heatsink and fan. At this time, there are just too many variables that will not allow this to be practical.


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## qubit (Jun 29, 2012)

FreedomEclipse said:


> In anycase when the design is finalised it should come with a shroud that stops people putting their fingers in.



Indeed, the video says that it will be enclosed in a cover of some sort, so safety won't be an issue.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 29, 2012)

still i will question its effectiveness till they release some data.
i dont think this will work. but then again,  i hope it does something, heatsinks are becoming too dull and similar nowadays.


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## pantherx12 (Jun 29, 2012)

Using a set of 5-6 heatpipes in a U formation these could function nicely and some sort of crazy dual tower cooler.



de.das.dude said:


> still i will question its effectiveness till they release some data.
> i dont think this will work. but then again,  i hope it does something, heatsinks are becoming too dull and similar nowadays.



They did mention processors of 150w, if this thing can cool 150w that is pretty damn efficient and up-scaled or with a slightly different design it could easily cool over-clocked processors .


----------



## Delta6326 (Jun 29, 2012)

If this thing is floating on air just barely, but what happens when you actually use it in your computer and its side ways wouldn't it just fall off?


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## trickson (Jun 29, 2012)

Delta6326 said:


> If this thing is floating on air just barely, but what happens when you actually use it in your computer and its side ways wouldn't it just fall off?



LOL Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This is kinda lame really, The thing is a accident waiting to happen IMHO.


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## qubit (Jun 29, 2012)

Delta6326 said:


> If this thing is floating on air just barely, but what happens when you actually use it in your computer and its side ways wouldn't it just fall off?





trickson said:


> LOL Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This is kinda lame really, The thing is a accident waiting to happen IMHO.



Yeah and if you had a horizontal case, you couldn't move it, because it would drift off.


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## trickson (Jun 29, 2012)

I smell a lawsuit!


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## pantherx12 (Jun 29, 2012)

Is nobody watching the video? lol


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## Random Murderer (Jun 29, 2012)

Delta6326 said:


> If this thing is floating on air just barely, but what happens when you actually use it in your computer and its side ways wouldn't it just fall off?



The fin assembly is secured to the motor's spindle, which is in turn secured to the base. When the fin assembly stops spinning, it just rests on top of the base. It was stated in the video(or a previous video/press release, can't really remember but it was mentioned by someone else as well so I know I didn't imagine it) that the unit can be mounted in any orientation without problems.


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## newtekie1 (Jun 29, 2012)

If this uses a cushion of air to transfer the heat from the stationary base to the spinning impeller that can't be that efficient.  Air is a terrible conductor of heat...

I'd like to see some actual performance numbers compared to traditional heatsinks.


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## Random Murderer (Jun 29, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> Air is a terrible conductor of heat...



When acting as a gas, sure. In this case, the air is acting as a fluid.


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## Delta6326 (Jun 29, 2012)

Random Murderer said:


> The fin assembly is secured to the motor's spindle, which is in turn secured to the base. When the fin assembly stops spinning, it just rests on top of the base. It was stated in the video(or a previous video/press release, can't really remember but it was mentioned by someone else as well so I know I didn't imagine it) that the unit can be mounted in any orientation without problems.



Oh ok thanks i wasn't 100% sure(I was think it had to be connected some how) I watched the video, but I guess I missed that part.


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## pantherx12 (Jun 29, 2012)

newtekie1 said:


> If this uses a cushion of air to transfer the heat from the stationary base to the spinning impeller that can't be that efficient.  Air is a terrible conductor of heat...
> 
> I'd like to see some actual performance numbers compared to traditional heatsinks.




Stationary air is a terrible conductor of heat.

pressurised fast moving air is fairly decent ( what the cushion is)


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## rectifryer (Jun 29, 2012)

Couple of inconsistencies I see from a practical point of view here:

1)Dust will collect on inside of the impeller.  I don't care what they claim.  Until they put this in a room with 3 cats for a week I don't believe a word.
2)It will take far less dust to block the inside of the impeller than a normal setup.  
3)They must comparing efficiency based off surface area of the heat exchanger, that is the ONLY way this could be "30 times more efficient".  Even then, Its not smaller than a conventional air setup.
4)Stationary air is GREAT insulator.


----------



## Random Murderer (Jun 29, 2012)

rectifryer said:


> Couple of inconsistencies I see from a practical point of view here:
> 
> 1)Dust will collect on inside of the impeller.  I don't care what they claim.  Until they put this in a room with 3 cats for a week I don't believe a word.
> 2)It will take far less dust to block the inside of the impeller than a normal setup.



Yes, dust will inevitably get caught on the fins, hair even more so.


rectifryer said:


> 3)They must comparing efficiency based off surface area of the heat exchanger, that is the ONLY way this could be "30 times more efficient".  Even then, Its not smaller than a conventional air setup.



They're comparing it to current industrial heat exchangers for things like transformers and solid-state lighting, not to conventional PC cooling solutions.


rectifryer said:


> 4)Stationary air is GREAT insulator.



Operative word being "stationary."


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 29, 2012)

rectifryer said:


> Couple of inconsistencies I see from a practical point of view here:
> 
> 1)Dust will collect on inside of the impeller.  I don't care what they claim.  Until they put this in a room with 3 cats for a week I don't believe a word.
> 2)It will take far less dust to block the inside of the impeller than a normal setup.
> ...



~Sigh~

1) Dust collects because there is a fouling lay associated with fluids.  The slower a fluid travels the larger this fouling layer is.  Functionally, you can prevent dust from building up if the fouling layer depth is less than that of a dust particle.  Extremely fast moving air can have this small of a fouling layer rather easily.
2) See 1.  No dust buildup means it cannot be blocked.
3) No.  They are comparing a larger heatsink, like the heatsinks you see on higher end cooling (think 212, and similar coolers).  As explained way earlier, the increase in conductive and convective cooling is huge when the "bearing" material is a flowing fluid.  Not hard to see the volumetric efficiencies being 30 times greater than conventional solutions.
4) STATIONARY.  You make two assumptions when you say this.  There is no convective cooling, and there are no fans.  Air is a fluid, that moves based upon a large number of factors.  Coolers generally have a fan to move air, which brings cooler air into the mix so that the difference in air temperatures (heatsink versus ambient) is higher.  Higher temperature differences provoke more heat transfer.


Practicality means understanding the basics.  Needless to say, the substantial change in the "basics" of how this cooler works are why it might be difficult to warm up to.  Without citing any specifics, I would recommend that you take another look at the assumptions you are working under.  A flawed set of assumptions can be interpreted correctly into an incorrect answer.  I know I've been guilty of that in the past...


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## pabloottawa (Jun 29, 2012)

Either way. It's clear there are some challenges thay have to overcome in order to make it marketable to the PC enthusiast...... For example, as it stands, that damn noise would never make it into my PC case lol.


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## pantherx12 (Jun 29, 2012)

pabloottawa said:


> Either way. It's clear there are some challenges thay have to overcome in order to make it marketable to the PC enthusiast...... For example, as it stands, that damn noise would never make it into my PC case lol.



The sound is the motor, it's very easy to upgrade the motor to something more silent 

Having said that inside a pc case 3-4 foot away from your ear it's likely even this motor would be in audible, they're filming from within a foot the device as far as I can tell.

I never have my ear that close to my pc when it's running


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## Steevo (Jun 29, 2012)

You know, if we had used this for years they would give a Nobel prize to the man who invented a heatsink with a fan on it.


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## rectifryer (Jun 29, 2012)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> ~Sigh~
> 
> *LOL I suppose you have access to all the data supporting this. I'm not even going to go any further with this.*
> 
> ...


I am well aware that the velocity of fluid impacts the collection of particulates.  I am calling bullshit on claims that this device can pull air in at that speed.  You are making assumptions about what I said, perhaps I wasn't clear myself.  To be specific, I don't believe you can force air through the impeller of this device fast enough at atmospheric pressure to reduce the fouling layer to the point where cleaning won't be an issue.  Can other systems do this effectively? Yes yet they have such different specs.  

Could I be wrong?  Sure, SNL thinks so.  Thats reason enough to second guess. Their video still sucks at explaining the device.  

Of course, none of us have seen any real data so its all conjecture.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 29, 2012)

Random Murderer said:


> When acting as a gas, sure. In this case, the air is acting as a fluid.



do you even know the definition of a fluid? 

also the impeller design itself seems like BS on this heatsink. and i call BS on the 150W thing.


----------



## rectifryer (Jun 29, 2012)

http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2010/100258.pdf

That is their abstract and tech doc.  This should clear things up for everyone.


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## fullinfusion (Jun 29, 2012)

Ya wouldn't want to get your finger to close to this thing.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 29, 2012)

went through the doc. i think it is possible. but we shouldnt expect high performance. just similar/slighty better to stock HSFs.


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## Completely Bonkers (Jun 29, 2012)

1./ It wont chop your fingers off or snag wires because it will have a "lid" on it.  Just as the fins have a bottom plate, there should be a top plate too. (albeit with a hole in the middle). The demo with the blades showing is suboptimal, because it allows air to spill out the top. Design should include top. PATENT ME

2./ Mounting this will be tricky. Look at the video.  The motor is *underneath* competing with the space exactly where you would expect the "hot" CPU to be.  You can't mount the motor on top or you will stop the airflow into the vortex.  This means it will be a large cumbersome device with heatpipes, or we will need mainboards with holes and mounting positions for motors underneath. :shadedshu

3./ You will get just as much dust, perhaps more even, just not deposited in the fan... but it will still be in the PC case.  Just like a twister (tornado)... it is nice an "clean" at the vortex, but rather dirty everywhere else.


----------



## pantherx12 (Jun 29, 2012)

Completely Bonkers said:


> 2./ Mounting this will be tricky. Look at the video.  The motor is *underneath* competing with the space exactly where you would expect the "hot" CPU to be.  You can't mount the motor on top or you will stop the airflow into the vortex.  This means it will be a large cumbersome device with heatpipes, or we will need mainboards with holes and mounting positions for motors underneath. :shadedshu
> 
> .




Mounting it will be fairly simple, it would just have to be bolted from the opposite side of the motherboard ( screwing into the baseplate/heatspreader the motor sits ontop of)


----------



## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 30, 2012)

Time for one last go at this, because its getting tiring to make sense of your opposition.

1) The amount of heat a motor generates is minimal, when compared to what the components it is cooling generate.  It's best described simply through construction.

A fan can be constructed out of plastic, with minimal contacts built from metals.  Obviously, the fans don't reach a high enough temperature to melt the plastics.

A CPU can be used to ignite thermite.  If you want a demonstration, check out the hackaday archives.  It burns through metal, and ignites the phosphorous which starts the thermolytic reaction.


2) This is not a tornado.  It will never be a tornado.  A more apt comparison would be a mixer.

If you set the mixer to high, and blend a beverage (lets say it's a rum and coke, because after arguing this I feel like I need one) you can remove the blender from the beverage without anything on it.  If you were to set the blender much lower then you could remove it with parts of the beverage still on it.

In this same way, a fast spinning blade can remain cleaned of dust.  

Additionally, set a blender into a beverage, extract it, then turn it on high.  Bits of that beverage will be flung throughout the kitchen, which illustrates what any settled particulates will do on this cooler.


3) Bearings get hot.  Very, very, hot.  I dare you to drive a car for an hour, then touch the grease from the pumpkin.  It's scalding hot, and it is what was flowing between the bearings.

Extrapolating, imagine a bearing that could have grease infinitely pumped into the bearing.  The grease would remove heat, as it was pulled away from the bearing.

It takes very little to then see this happening in an air bearing.  A physical contact (ball bearings, needles/pins, etc...) are replaced by fast moving air.  The air bearing is separating the metal bits, and providing an infinite flow of "lubrication" all at once.  You get both a long lasting component, and insane cooling through conduction.


4) Most of the heat from the processor will be channeled to the air bearing and sink via heatpipes.  Heatpipes use phase change cooling to transfer energy.  It's like the bad ass cousin of water coolers.

Take five minutes, and find the phase change energy of water (liquid to gas), versus the heat capacity of water (in a liquid).  I'll let those that remember high school physics move on, and give those remaining a quick run down.

The energy required to change a given amount of atoms average temperature one degree is its heat capacity.  Lets take a look at water specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

We can see that the heat capacity of water is about 4.2 J/(g*K) (joules per gram per degree Kelvin).  We can see that the vaporization energy for one mol of water is 40.6 kJ.mol at 100 C.  What does this mean? (assuming all results are basically standard atmospheric pressure)

You can get water to change from a liquid at one temperature to a liquid at another temperature rather easily.  Conversely, changing that water from a liquid to a gas takes a huge amount of energy, and you don't even raise the temperature.  

Phase change cooling takes this principal, and changes the pressure around the water.  A partial vacuum is created, so that water will boil at a lower temperature.  It could boil at 60C, rather than 100C.

So now you've got boiling water, taking a huge amount of energy, and traveling away from the components.  You can pass air across the heat pipe, and cool the water back into a liquid.  Through both gravity and capillary pressure the liquid is forced back down, and the process is repeated.

This heatpipe can take heat from a component, and transfer it better than conduction ever could.  Assuming the other end of the heat pipe is in a high fluid flow situation the process could take almost no time at all.  Pulling heat away from the components is then very fast, and basically just an extremely effective evolution of the heatpipe techniques that are already in use today.  If it works right now, why is there doubt that it will work in the future?


5) My final question to anyone out there is why is this difficult to understand?

Water cooling uses a fluid, which absorbs and expels heat via conduction.  The thermal capacity of water (how much energy it takes to change one degree) is higher than air, so you can get either cooler running systems (same rate of fluid flow as equivalent air cooler), or significantly less fluid flow.

Air coolers pump a fluid across fins, so that the conduction of heat into the air cools the components.  Same idea as the water coolers, just a different fluid at play.

Extrapolate that fast moving air acts more like water as a heat transfer medium.  This is, greatly oversimplified of course, what is going on.  A known fluid, air, is being forced to act more like another fluid, water, currently does by manipulating its other traits (namely velocity).  What am I missing, that people seem to be so bent on pointing out?


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## fullinfusion (Jun 30, 2012)

Way to much to comment on lol.

Thanks for taking the time to post though. Umm ur comment on the wheel bearings! Not true lol.. the bearing must not be set right in order for you not to touch it 

Hell my big rig loaded at 100000Lbs the bearing oil is warm not hot and that's going a thousand miles without stopping!

And the rest I didnt read much into it, just to much for the moment lol

Besides I doubt much will come of this technology... That's just old methods (different design thats all) and a new cooling system will evolve in time.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jun 30, 2012)

fullinfusion said:


> Way to much to comment on lol.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to post though. Umm ur comment on the wheel bearings! Not true lol.. the bearing must not be set right in order for you not to touch it
> 
> ...



The economics of size.

I'm talking about a pumpkin (not the wheel bearing, but the large transmission device that the drive shaft attaches to) for a car, rather than that of a big rig.

In a big rig it is easier to have a higher efficiency bearing.  This is a simple game of the mechanics of size.  To get high efficiency bearings, or any mechanical component really, there are two options:

1) Allow for infinite size.  An error of 1/4" on a 300" part is a small percentage.  An infinitely large bearing would allow for large amounts of error, without creating a problem.  In this example the friction could be nearly zero, allowing for a perfect transmission of energy.

2) Allow for infinite funding.  With limitless funding newer technologies, and more time can be spent producing a more efficient device.  

Extending the car metaphor:
The transmission system (engine to tires) on a 68 barracuda was a mess.  Less than 20% of the power generated by the engine could actually be applied at the tires.  This kind of inefficiency was tolerable, because it was the standard for the time.  

Conversely, diesel trucks from today share much in common with their ancestors from the 70's and 80's.  The same large bearings and transmission systems allow a huge truck to cost efficiently transport goods across the continental masses.

As technology has developed (i.e. capital was invested in research), the barracuda and its brethren have died out.  The common vehicles are now efficient, capable of getting twice or more the mileage from the same amount of fuel.  This is a direct result of better manufacturing techniques, which cost money to develop.


Back to the original discussion, as I feel I have wandered off.


This is not a new technology.  It it the technology we already have, pushed to that next logical step.  

We spin hard drives at thousands of RPMs.  We have heatpipes, to effectively transfer heat from point to point.  We use shearing flows to separate components during manufacturing.  All of these technologies are already in place, and Sandia is just now putting everything together.  

If Sandia has been working on this for several years, then there are problems somewhere that haven't yet been brought to the outside world.  They don't produce things, they develop the technology and license it to other manufacturers.  A year between revealing the technology, and not seeing any continued development, means that there's something very wrong.

The problem is that people see that there's no development, and assume it is because of some flawed mechanic.  This is, presumably, due how difficult it is to understand how this new mechanism works.

Edit:
Edited for poor english.


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## de.das.dude (Jun 30, 2012)

Read the section on the hydrodynamic bearing. its the same as how the read/write heads of a HDD "float" on the platter.

one thing CB pointed out is mounting the rotor. i dont think mounting the rotor will be difficult. However, since the rotor is mounted at the centre of the baseplate and the centre is the region of the most heating, there might be some issues with efficiency.

Like i said before, they seem to have tackled all the problems theoretically. The question is how well it will work altogether.


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## micropage7 (Jun 30, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> Read the section on the hydrodynamic bearing. its the same as how the read/write heads of a HDD "float" on the platter


with such a small gap you can add a little dust to make it locked 
and i questioning about how good heat could get transfered with no direct contact between them


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## de.das.dude (Jun 30, 2012)

micropage7 said:


> with such a small gap you can add a little dust to make it locked
> and i questioning about how good heat could get transfered with no direct contact between them



i dont think that area will be accessible to dust. that will probably be sealed like a ballbearing.

and 0.03mm is really small. its almost the same as the gap between fins and heatpipes that pass through them 
also if you look at their experimental darta, air is kinda conductive at that thickness.


----------



## pantherx12 (Jun 30, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> Read the section on the hydrodynamic bearing. its the same as how the read/write heads of a HDD "float" on the platter.
> 
> one thing CB pointed out is mounting the rotor. i dont think mounting the rotor will be difficult. However, since the rotor is mounted at the centre of the baseplate and the centre is the region of the most heating, there might be some issues with efficiency.
> 
> Like i said before, they seem to have tackled all the problems theoretically. The question is how well it will work altogether.



Uses heatpipes man, so the energy is spread to the entire base plate, you can see from their thermal imaging that it works fairly well as the base plate is all the same temperature : ]


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## de.das.dude (Jun 30, 2012)

true the thermal image showed that the top of the fins were the hottest. i guess they use a flat heatpipe 

So if they HAVE TO use heatpipes. why not go traditional


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## Aquinus (Jun 30, 2012)

I wouldn't call this fan-less, it's just making the cooler itself act as the fan.  I would be really curious to see how well this works and what happens after long periods of use because any device that moves air is susceptible to dust buildup and I'm sure that after a while that air cushion that the cooler rides on might not be as big if dust does build up. I would also imagine that this thing would have to be balanced perfectly to work properly. I don't think I would be an early adopter, I'll let others figure it out.


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## pantherx12 (Jun 30, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> So if they HAVE TO use heatpipes. why not go traditional


What do mean, like tower heatsink?

because this new design is more efficient.

It's cooling performance far exceeds that of it's size and weight.


If this thing wasn't better than a conventional heat-sink then they would of stopped production after the first prototype last year 


That they are thinking of using this as a condenser inside ACs goes to show how efficient this thing is the radiators in ACs are HUGE. Even small ones are around 20 by 20 cms and about 3-4 cm thick. And two of these things can supposedly replace all that!



de.das.dude said:


> i dont think that area will be accessible to dust. that will probably be sealed like a ballbearing.
> 
> and 0.03mm is really small. its almost the same as the gap between fins and heatpipes that pass through them
> also if you look at their experimental darta, air is kinda conductive at that thickness.



The area won't be sealed, it's open so air can spin and rush through it. The speed of the air will force dust out of the air bearing ( if the air doesn't the plate spinning at 2000 rpm occasionally hitting particles will force them out) 

And the main reason it works well as a conductor is not the thickness it's the speed of air/constant fresh flow. ( like water flowing through a block, in fact if you imagine this device submerged in water instead you'll probably be able to visualise why this thing is effective. )


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## de.das.dude (Jun 30, 2012)

"speed of air will force dust ou"

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

so thats what happens when the high speed air goes through heatsink fins.

theoretically its ok. but practically we have to deal with not only dust but lint too. and animal fur etc.


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## theeldest (Jul 2, 2012)

Regarding the "dustless" claim:

The explanation for this is in the video but seems lots of peeps here missed it. It's due to the centripetal force. <insert whole spinning bucket on a string analogy>

What this means is that any dust particle experiences a force about 100,000x to 150,000x the force of gravity outward from the center. This is why most fans don't collect dust but the heat sinks do.

I think it's pretty realistic for this to be considered dustless, especially when compared to conventional non-passive coolers.


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## phanbuey (Jul 2, 2012)

theeldest said:


> Regarding the "dustless" claim:
> 
> The explanation for this is in the video but seems lots of peeps here missed it. It's due to the centripetal force. <insert whole spinning bucket on a string analogy>
> 
> ...



The explanation is fine, but most fans DO collect dust and MUCH more so than stationary components, in reality.  i.e. the back of your videocard is always going to be much cleaner than the fans in your system (unless you have a fan blowing air on to the back of your videocard).

The same principle will apply here.  Dust will get in/on this cooler, especially if they put a shroud on it to keep from lopping off people's digits, as that will just act as another surface for dust to latch on to.


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## cadaveca (Jul 2, 2012)

phanbuey said:


> The explanation is fine, but most fans DO collect dust and MUCH more so than stationary components, in reality.  i.e. the back of your videocard is always going to be much cleaner than the fans in your system (unless you have a fan blowing air on to the back of your videocard).
> 
> The same principle will apply here.  Dust will get in/on this cooler, especially if they put a shroud on it to keep from lopping off people's digits, as that will just act as another surface for dust to latch on to.



The part that is missing here is that most fans do not rotate at a high enough speed for them to not have dust collect on the surface.

That is part of the deal, they tested to find the optimal speed to prevent dust collection.


----------



## phanbuey (Jul 2, 2012)

I don't know... I'm skeptical, i gotta see it to believe it.  But having seen 2K rpm fans collect plenty of dust on the blades, my initial gut reaction is to consider this BS.

Also, the fact that they will have a shroud or a grate of any kind to safeguard the user almost guarantees dust.  

If they said it was "dust-resistant" or "optimized to collect much less dust" then great! But "dust-less"? No way.  Someone in marketing got a bit too excited.

Also not that I care - if this thing cools well, i would buy even if it collected MORE dust .


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 2, 2012)

The only way dust will not collect on these fins is if there is negative air pressure. The shape of these fins is wrong for that. They would need to be more a traditional "tear drop" air foil design and even then there would be some dust gathering. 

What they are doing here seems cool but if they are truly using "dead air" then this will suck as a cooler as the heat will not dissipate until the molecules gain enough movement to expand out past the positive pressure. Basically this thing will get SUPER HOT before passive air cools it......slightly in the dead space within the cooler.


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## cadaveca (Jul 2, 2012)

phanbuey said:


> I don't know... I'm skeptical, i gotta see it to believe it.  But having seen 2K rpm fans collect plenty of dust on the blades, my initial gut reaction is to consider this BS.
> 
> Also, the fact that they will have a shroud or a grate of any kind to safeguard the user almost guarantees dust.
> 
> If they said it was "dust-resistant" or "optimized to collect much less dust" then great! But "dust-less"? No way.  Someone in marketing got a bit too excited.



Perhaps. But all I can think of is those VGAs that spin the fans in reverse to blow dust out...MSI, i think?

Lie yeah, much of this is, for me "Cool, but..uh...I can't buy, can't see working sample" so I'm not very sure of it either. I just am willing to listen, and then judge a final product, than to denounce something unproven. I'm more than willnig to give them a chance to prove themselves and this technology.


----------



## phanbuey (Jul 2, 2012)

cadaveca said:


> Perhaps. But all I can think of is those VGAs that spin the fans in reverse to blow dust out...MSI, i think?
> 
> Lie yeah, much of this is, for me "Cool, but..uh...I can't buy, can't see working sample" so I'm not very sure of it either. I just am willing to listen, and then judge a final product, than to denounce something unproven. I'm more than willnig to give them a chance to prove themselves and this technology.



Just because I think that their dustless claim is BS doesn't mean im not willing to give them a chance to prove the tech. - I'm assuming everyone here knows that my prior posts are my opinion, and should be taken with a few cartons of salt.

It's fun to speculate - you have faith that their modeling software and their theory is correct, and dust will not stick to the blades of the cooler - which is valid.  I on the other hand, predict that because it spins and has airflow around it, in reality it is destined for dust, and their claims are exaggerated.  

It's food for thought, and gives us stuff to talk about while they're bringing it to market.


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## Aquinus (Jul 3, 2012)

There honestly, there is no substitute for keeping your rig clean. Unless you live in a sterile environment, which most people don't.


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## pantherx12 (Jul 3, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> "speed of air will force dust ou"
> 
> LOLOLOLOLOLOL
> 
> ...



Yes only the fins on this are not stationary so there other forces in action.


----------



## pabloottawa (Jul 3, 2012)

static electricity is what makes most fans and heat sinks collect dust. Anyways, this horse is dead guys... Agree to disagree


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## Mussels (Jul 3, 2012)

theeldest said:


> Regarding the "dustless" claim:
> 
> The explanation for this is in the video but seems lots of peeps here missed it. It's due to the centripetal force. <insert whole spinning bucket on a string analogy>
> 
> ...



i came up with the conter: hair. once hair or debris sticks, the dust will stick to that. if they can prevent that problem, this will be great.


edit: and static electricity has nothing to do with fans gathering dust. no idea where you got that idea.


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## 1Kurgan1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm sure it's already been said, but I don't plan on sifting through 3 pages  

But I wouldn't call this a Heatsink with no Fan. I would call this a Heatsink as a Fan. Unless I'm looking at this wrong. I'm just curious how this actually dissipates that heat as it can only be connected by the drive motor in the center basically. How does the heat get transferred up to the spinning heatsink. Though like I said I could be looking at this completely wrong.

Either way I'm a bit skeptical of the idea itself. With the fins/blades so close together and with that kind of RPM, I don't see how new air can be introduced. I understand they want to expel the stagnant air and that rpm helps that. But with such narrow gaps in there I almost see this thing creating a barrier around itself that pushes fresh air around the outside, rather than into and out of the cooler.


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## pantherx12 (Jul 3, 2012)

1Kurgan1 said:


> I'm sure it's already been said, but I don't plan on sifting through 3 pages
> 
> But I wouldn't call this a Heatsink with no Fan. I would call this a Heatsink as a Fan. Unless I'm looking at this wrong. I'm just curious how this actually dissipates that heat as it can only be connected by the drive motor in the center basically. How does the heat get transferred up to the spinning heatsink. Though like I said I could be looking at this completely wrong.
> 
> Either way I'm a bit skeptical of the idea itself. With the fins/blades so close together and with that kind of RPM, I don't see how new air can be introduced. I understand they want to expel the stagnant air and that rpm helps that. But with such narrow gaps in there I almost see this thing creating a barrier around itself that pushes fresh air around the outside, rather than into and out of the cooler.



The heat is transferred through the air bearing it's self, the air moves in such a way that it essentially works as both a constant flow of fluid ( working like a block and water running through it) and a nigh on frictionless bearing.

Regarding air flow, once it starts spinning the air in this thing is forced out, that creates negative air pressure allowing it to draw in fresh air again.

It basically works like a centrifugal pump.

Like others have said this is all technology we already knew works well, they've just put it all into one package.


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## de.das.dude (Jul 3, 2012)

Mussels said:


> i came up with the conter: hair. once hair or debris sticks, the dust will stick to that. if they can prevent that problem, this will be great.
> 
> 
> edit: and static electricity has nothing to do with fans gathering dust. no idea where you got that idea.



it does. surfaces with charge attract paper pieces and also dust in the same way,

but since the whole thing will be made of metal static electricity doesnt even exist.


@themailman impellers dont have a teardrop or airfoil design. airfoils create lift and a pressure difference. impellers scoop up and fling the air.
this is very similar to a centrifugal pump.


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## TheMailMan78 (Jul 3, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> it does. surfaces with charge attract paper pieces and also dust in the same way,
> 
> but since the whole thing will be made of metal static electricity doesnt even exist.
> 
> ...



Yeah me and Dave talked about this in TS yesterday. I was confusing this with a cyclone design where the air is pulled from the bottom. This is more like a vacuum concept.

Also what I said is these would have to be more of an airfoil design IMO to not gather dust. However how they are doing this with negative pressure and blade speed in theory would in fact stay dust free or at the bare minimum dust resistant. The concept is very cool. I was just confused about air flow. I still think the escaping air will pull some of the air "pillow" out from the bottom of the cooler but Dave disagreed with that. I would love to see a thermal image of this thing at work.


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## pantherx12 (Jul 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah me and Dave talked about this in TS yesterday. I was confusing this with a cyclone design where the air is pulled from the bottom. This is more like a vacuum concept.
> 
> Also what I said is these would have to be more of an airfoil design IMO to not gather dust. However how they are doing this with negative pressure and blade speed in theory would in fact stay dust free or at the bare minimum dust resistant. The concept is very cool. I was just confused about air flow. I still think the escaping air will pull some of the air "pillow" out from the bottom of the cooler but Dave disagreed with that. I would love to see a thermal image of this thing at work.




There's a PDF floating about somewhere in the thread that has all the technical information you'd need as well as some thermal images to look at.

As well a design for a condenser for an AC ( instead of weaving pipes through a radiator they just made a spiral out of the pipes and stuck two of these things either side of the coil )


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## de.das.dude (Jul 3, 2012)

TheMailMan78 said:


> Yeah me and Dave talked about this in TS yesterday. I was confusing this with a cyclone design where the air is pulled from the bottom. This is more like a vacuum concept.
> 
> Also what I said is these would have to be more of an airfoil design IMO to not gather dust. However how they are doing this with negative pressure and blade speed in theory would in fact stay dust free or at the bare minimum dust resistant. The concept is very cool. I was just confused about air flow. I still think the escaping air will pull some of the air "pillow" out from the bottom of the cooler but Dave disagreed with that. I would love to see a *thermal image* of this thing at work.



there is one in the pdf.
also... who Dave?


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## cadaveca (Jul 3, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> there is one in the pdf.
> also... who Dave?



<------------------


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## de.das.dude (Jul 3, 2012)

lol yeah. i had forgoten. tired and sleepy.


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## StanMen (Jul 4, 2012)

WOW Fantastic !! dammm i want that cooling sis ! i'm prity sure that this going be the future of CPU cooling ! amazing thanks for sharing this info with us bro ! Cadaveca! thanks !


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## de.das.dude (Jul 4, 2012)

sorry to destroy your hopes and dreams... but this is not the future of cooling.


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## FordGT90Concept (Jul 4, 2012)

Do. Want. As long as it has a long life span and doesn't become a projectile should it fail.




de.das.dude said:


> sorry to destroy your hopes and dreams... but this is not the future of cooling.


Then what is?  It's about time someone uses CAD to reinvent the fan. XD


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## de.das.dude (Jul 4, 2012)

this is just a cooler with use only in places were space is limited. think servers and HTPCs


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## pantherx12 (Jul 4, 2012)

de.das.dude said:


> this is just a cooler with use only in places were space is limited. think servers and HTPCs





Dude, this thing can replace the condenser in a Air Conditioning unit.








That's a condenser! ( albeit a fairly big one)


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## qubit (Jul 4, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Dude, this thing can replace the condenser in a Air Conditioning unit.
> 
> http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20089/China_Air_Conditioning_Condenser20089171356326.jpg
> 
> ...



That's a car radiator! You rascal!


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## pantherx12 (Jul 4, 2012)

qubit said:


> That's a car radiator! You rascal!



Not according to it's URL!

URLS don't lie man


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## micropage7 (Jul 4, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Dude, this thing can replace the condenser in a Air Conditioning unit.
> 
> http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20089/China_Air_Conditioning_Condenser20089171356326.jpg
> 
> ...



yeah, thats good
i ever imagine how if i pair water cooling with 3 ply radiator, it must be good
although its kinda little bit ghetto too


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 4, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Dude, this thing can replace the condenser in a Air Conditioning unit.
> 
> http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20089/China_Air_Conditioning_Condenser20089171356326.jpg
> 
> ...



?

I understand, what I hope to be, the sarcasm.  The issues are:
1) Water cooling in a car is done by simple heat transfer.  There is no condenser, as no phase change occurs.

2) The energy required to spin this thing will prohibit it from being used in larger applications.  Maintaining that kind of velocity with a higher moment of inertia would require substantial motor power, which would make the cooling system less efficient.

3) Radiators provide a surface so that heat can be ejected into the surrounding environment, rather than circulate within the fluid loop.  Condensers shift the phase of a material (usually gas to liquid in cooling), so that the cooling loop can use the subsequent phase change back to remove energy from the system.


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## pantherx12 (Jul 4, 2012)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> ?
> 
> I understand, what I hope to be, the sarcasm.  The issues are:
> 1) Water cooling in a car is done by simple heat transfer.  There is no condenser, as no phase change occurs.
> ...



Waaaaahhhh?

1. Why are you talking about radiators on a post about condensers.
2.This thing doesn't require all that much power, after all once it get's going it supports it's own weight so will be spinning like a regular fan surely. ( and thus use the same amount of energy as a fan spinning at the same speed, did you see how long this thing can coast for? so long as once upscaled they still support their own weight they would likely use the same amount of energy. Considering some air conditioning fans use silly amounts of amps already this shouldn't really be a problem,)
3. Yes I know this, I'm so confused man lol.


I'm not sure what any of that has to do with what I said.

Sandia have a condenser type design within their PDF ( it's basically two Sandia coolers and copper piping)


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 4, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Waaaaahhhh?
> 
> 1. Why are you talking about radiators on a post about condensers.
> 2.This thing doesn't require all that much power, after all once it get's going it supports it's own weight so will be spinning like a regular fan surely. ( and thus use the same amount of energy as a fan spinning at the same speed, did you see how long this thing can coast for? so long as once upscaled they still support their own weight they would likely use the same amount of energy. Considering some air conditioning fans use silly amounts of amps already this shouldn't really be a problem,)
> ...



You posted a picture of a radiator, and called it a condenser.  That's what I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around.

Sandia is saying condenser, but the more common word for this type of condenser is heatpipe.  The heatpipes are what they are using, and that is effectively a closed loop condenser (one end), absorber (opposite end), and radiator (surface of heatpipe over condenser area.  


Maybe I'm missing something?  If so, can you tell me what it is, because I cannot see it...


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## pantherx12 (Jul 4, 2012)

lilhasselhoffer said:


> You posted a picture of a radiator, and called it a condenser.  That's what I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around.
> 
> Sandia is saying condenser, but the more common word for this type of condenser is heatpipe.  The heatpipes are what they are using, and that is effectively a closed loop condenser (one end), absorber (opposite end), and radiator (surface of heatpipe over condenser area.
> 
> ...



It is a radiator, but it's a condenser as well. That one is actually from an AC.

Spending a lot of time on roof tops I see an awful lot of those things 







( the whole thing is a radiator/condenser, it will have a radial blower type fan that's about 3 foot tall in that) 


I imagine what is happening here is that my poor English is making what I say sound like gibberish.


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## lilhasselhoffer (Jul 4, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> It is a radiator, but it's a condenser as well. That one is actually from an AC.
> 
> Spending a lot of time on roof tops I see an awful lot of those things
> 
> ...



Sorry then, grammatical issues.

Condensor: a device that changes phases of a substance (condensor referring to condensing gas to a liquid)

Radiator: Passes fluid (liquids in cooling, though gasses are used in heating and chemical processing) through to exchange heat, but does not allow phase change.



Air conditioning uses both radiators and condensors, in a sealed and open loop combination.  The condensor changes a gas into a liquid (freon or other coolant), then passes this liquid over a radiator.  Phase changing as the liquid evaporates makes the radiator cold, so the gas inside the radiator (air) is chilled.  The condensor loop passes the warm gas back to the condensor, to be turned back into a liquid.  The open loop pumps chilled air into whatever is being cooled.  

Again, engineering side.  My bad.


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## de.das.dude (Jul 4, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> It is a radiator, but it's a condenser as well. That one is actually from an AC.
> 
> Spending a lot of time on roof tops I see an awful lot of those things
> 
> ...




correct. Its called a heat exchanger.

What happens in it is that the vaporised coolant gas which was vaporised upon exchanging heat with the inside of the room, now gets compressed by the compressor and also gains a bit of heat in the process because of the work done on it. so its passed through the radiator or heat exchanger.


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## de.das.dude (Jul 8, 2012)

pantherx12 said:


> Dude, this thing can replace the condenser in a Air Conditioning unit.
> 
> http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20089/China_Air_Conditioning_Condenser20089171356326.jpg
> 
> ...



it will never replace that.

condenser and radiator is pretty much the same 


technically in mechanical engineering we call them as heat exchangers


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## pabloottawa (Jul 8, 2012)

Dead horse!!!!


... Stop beating me please!!!!


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## mtcn77 (Oct 12, 2012)

*the manufacturer*

After reading an interesting article about the inventor of the first vga cooler, I'm placing a guess as to the future manufacturer of this new tech: Arctic Cooler


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## OneMoar (Oct 12, 2012)

OOo thread necro ... 
/me grabs popcorn and counts the noobs that fall for it


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## AsRock (Oct 12, 2012)

mtcn77 said:


> After reading an interesting article about the inventor of the first vga cooler, I'm placing a guess as to the future manufacturer of this new tech: Arctic Cooler



I hope not there coolers are expensive enough as they are lol.


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